# Old Style Quarter Horses



## Harmony_Meadows

Are they still out there?? I brought home a beautiful mare earlier this month. She is 25 years old and very old style, big stocky body, good muscles and most importantly, nice big feet! I am absolutely in love with this mare.
She is calm, easy to work with and considering her age and that she has had 13 foals that we know of, she is in incredible shape. Put her next to my more modern, pleasure Quarter Horse mare, a young ten year old that is four leg lame right now and will always have issues with her feet (guess why!) and I just can't understand why they let that old style go. Are there any of that old bulldog style Quarter Horses left?? Any suggestions on where to look. I know Niki will only be able to work for so much longer and is at the end of her lifespan. She may still be with us for many more years (I really hope so) but I would like to find something like her in a younger package as well. Suggestions??
Here is a link to her pedigree. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ind...S+NIKI+LYNN&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

This is her


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## GoslingFever

She is a beauty. My uncle raised old QH like this. Their mare had a dozen or so foals also and lived well into her twenties. I wish more of this type was around too.

Good luck in your search!


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## goodhors

People who don't like the modern type QH, have created the Foundation Quarter Horse Association. Horse has to carry a certain percentage of old blood, no Impressive breeding, not sure if they all "have the look" of old style QHs. Or the better feet. Having ridden a LOT of old style QHs when they were to ONLY style, they were darn rough gaited except when cantering. A lot of the Foundation folks participate in the Ranch Horse competitions, roping, reining, cutting, working Stockhorse, etc.

However, with so many animals being VERY inbred to get those percentages, you would want to get a prospective purchase tested for the new inherited diseases like HERDA and others. Inbreeding does have those "bad" genes appear more easily. At this point, I would get ANY new QH purchase checked for these genetic diseases, not just HYPP. More diseases appearing each year, with those close genetics in all breeds with QH in them.


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## notwyse

Three bars...king...Leo...hard twist. Gotta read the papers. Then find you a ranch that cares more about performance than show. The trouble with impressive was they didn't care who he bred...and he stood cheap. Lessened rather than gained his legacy.


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## Teej

They are getting harder to find around here but they are out there. Easier to find out west on the ranches.

I had a couple really nice foundation bred mares but they are gone now.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/foxys+good+gal










http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/miss+top+doc









That's her last colt to her right. He's moved on from doing good in JR rodeo as an all around ranch horse to excelling in roping events per the last report I got on him.


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## Teej

And Goodhors, that first horse I posted a picture of had a trot that was smooth as glass. There wasn't even a bounce to her extended trot.


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## SFM in KY

You can still find them, although as Teej said, they are easier to find in the west where they still have cattle ranches that require working horses and not show horses. 

Look at the pedigrees ... the extended pedigrees ... and know what lines you want and which ones to stay away from.


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## aoconnor1

I have a few that are old line bred. Sadly, my two favorite QH stallions are the two that ushered in Impressive Syndrome and HERDA. I try to stay away from Impressive lines, but Poco Bueno doesn't always equate to HERDA, so I have a few Poco Bueno bred horses, but I don't breed them and won't.

I do have some lovely old QH lines though. Sir Quincy Dan, Sonny Dee Bar, Skipper, King, Leo. Mostly all on my gelding, but one of my big mares is foundation bred, though not 100 percent. If I could ever get a photo to download, I would post them! Here is a link to my gelding, you can see his pedigree on allbreedpedigreequery, his registered name is Pocos lucky cider. Here is his pic...

<iframe src="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/15290986878/player/f9dfde78e1" height="364" width="500" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen oallowfullscreen msallowfullscreen></iframe>


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## aoconnor1

This is Cider. If the pic shows!


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## fffarmergirl

Al is registered with FQHA. He is 75 or 80% foundation bred. He sure looks like a bulldog next to Ona. I can't believe how fat he is in that one pic. That was the day we bought him.


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## fffarmergirl

goodhors said:


> Having ridden a LOT of old style QHs when they were to ONLY style, they were darn rough gaited except when cantering. A lot of the Foundation folks participate in the Ranch Horse competitions, roping, reining, cutting, working Stockhorse, etc..


So has the roughest trot. It is impossible for me to sit it. I didn't know that was common with them.


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## aoconnor1

My gelding has the smoothest trot ever. Soft and slow...such a smooth ride.


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## wr

It took me close to 2 years to find my gelding but during that time, I did find there are still people breeding old style QH's. The best places to find them are usually areas with a concentration of working ranches. 

Unfortunately, buying a finished ranch horse is usually fairly expensive.


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## goodhors

Well, though your present horses used to day may be listed as Foundation, or now look "bulldog", many have a lot of TB in them, which I think improved the gaits. Maybe some folks bred for BETTER gaits, since then.

Those horses back "in the old days" were built as they were, many with short pasterns, upright shoulders, which gave them the pounding trot when you were not going as slow as possible. They had Draft blood in them for size, bone, often other breeds that were not tracked, so their builds came from undocumented animals of misc. breeding, but accepted into the QH registry by their looks. Early showing QHs came from this background and then produced more of themselves as time went on. The outcrossing with TB gained speed, better flexibility, helped with longer pasterns, shoulder angles in getting better gaits. I would believe that a number of those Foundation Horses would be laughed out of the QH ring now, just SO different than what you see in QHs today with big feet, plain heads, short necks.

The present "slower than slow, trot in place" ring gait, is not a new phenomena. VERY common in earlier times of QH or Western horse showing, so riders were not bouncing in their western saddles thru the classes. Those horses DID have great walks, huge overstride each step, which was a big bonus to folks in the saddle all day in getting places. Canters also were pretty good, though often kept quite slow, for comfort again, especially pretty in the show ring not tearing around the other horses. 

The super slow gaits changed over to Judges wanting "normal" looking gaits, not speedy, but FORWARD in the show ring. That lasted for 15-20 years, now back to the hardly moving horses in QH shows, because folks can't really ride, gaits can STILL be rough, and Judges have been trained to think "Slow equals well-trained" instead of being lame as so many QHs are now. QH has had to make Rules asking for Forward Progress in classes! Have two Canters, one has to SHOW FORWARD now, and SHOULD be asked for in the classes.

Glad some folks have smooth horses at the Trot, surely is the gait most useful in a long day riding.


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## aoconnor1

goodhors said:


> Well, though your present horses used to day may be listed as Foundation, or now look "bulldog", many have a lot of TB in them, which I think improved the gaits. Maybe some folks bred for BETTER gaits, since then.
> 
> Those horses back "in the old days" were built as they were, many with short pasterns, upright shoulders, which gave them the pounding trot when you were not going as slow as possible. They had Draft blood in them for size, bone, often other breeds that were not tracked, so their builds came from undocumented animals of misc. breeding, but accepted into the QH registry by their looks. Early showing QHs came from this background and then produced more of themselves as time went on. The outcrossing with TB gained speed, better flexibility, helped with longer pasterns, shoulder angles in getting better gaits. I would believe that a number of those Foundation Horses would be laughed out of the QH ring now, just SO different than what you see in QHs today with big feet, plain heads, short necks.
> 
> The present "slower than slow, trot in place" ring gait, is not a new phenomena. VERY common in earlier times of QH or Western horse showing, so riders were not bouncing in their western saddles thru the classes. Those horses DID have great walks, huge overstride each step, which was a big bonus to folks in the saddle all day in getting places. Canters also were pretty good, though often kept quite slow, for comfort again, especially pretty in the show ring not tearing around the other horses.
> 
> The super slow gaits changed over to Judges wanting "normal" looking gaits, not speedy, but FORWARD in the show ring. That lasted for 15-20 years, now back to the hardly moving horses in QH shows, because folks can't really ride, gaits can STILL be rough, and Judges have been trained to think "Slow equals well-trained" instead of being lame as so many QHs are now. QH has had to make Rules asking for Forward Progress in classes! Have two Canters, one has to SHOW FORWARD now, and SHOULD be asked for in the classes.
> 
> Glad some folks have smooth horses at the Trot, surely is the gait most useful in a long day riding.


My gelding has a very natural slow, smooth trot, though he was never trained for it. It came very naturally to him and he picked it up on his own the day I first saddled and rode him, I didn't train it into him. 

Sadly, that beautify boy of mine was kicked in his left hock 3 years ago. It fractured the cartilage in the hock, but when he was kicked his leg went underneath him sideways and it also broke his pelvis. He is a very lovely, well kept and much loved pasture pal at this point. Since the day he was kicked, he can not even able to be sat upon by anyone, no matter how light the rider. His lovely, slow trot will never be used. It wouldn't have been in a Western Pleasure ring anyway, he was a brilliant Reiner.

Seems you have a dislike for Quarter horses? Too bad, there are some really great, sound minded, level headed Quarter horses out there that are not only delightful to own and ride, but are as sturdy and willing as any breed could be. I am blessed to have several in my barn, both tall and small, Cutters, Reiners, and yes, a couple western pleasure/halter type show quality QH's. I also have Mustangs, an Appendix, 2 Paints, and several TB's, as well as a huge Friesian/TB cross filly coming 2 in February that is delightful. I don't ride Western Pleasure on any of them, but many have a very nice slow trot, can be collected in a slow lope, and at times, love a good run for the fun of it. 

I have had horses for more than 40 years. I will always love my solid, sound, pounding trot or smooth trot, QH's, but I will always love my others as well. I have only one breed I really prefer to never own, and I won't say which it is here because it would cause a stir. Suffice to say, my guys are what they are, smooth or bumpy doesn't matter. They get the job done and I am happy with that.


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## Harmony_Meadows

What use is a "smooth trot" when the horse breaks down at 8 years old and can only be ridden with joint injections or has chronic foot problems from having feet so darn small they fit in my pony's shoes? 

Niki has a very smooth gait and is quiet and even tempered. Frankly I find thoroughbreds to be way too sensitive and not as hardy as a good working Quarter Horse. It seems breeders now a days are breeding form over function. I think that is grits backwards myself. If I wanted a thoroughbred I would have one. I have no desire to have one. 

I could care less about the worthless, broken down, small footed garbage they now call show horses. They are a joke. They last a couple years before their body rebels against its very design. Give me a good using horse, one that can do the job I ask of it and can still pack my big ol' butt around when most horses have been buried for 10 years or more. Any horse can have an ok jog but if you can't sit a rougher trot then you don't know how to ride. No sense blaming the horse because you are lazy. I have ridden a lot of different horses over the years and a lot of different breeds, cross outs and what not and I have had all kinds of trots to sit to. Some were down right awful but sorry, they didn't come from the ranch horses or the older style Quarters, they came from the appendix crosses and the thoroughbreds. And one really nasty pony but that is another thread. 

Point is I would rather have a long lasting, well tempered, easy riding but rough trotted Quarter Horse than some of the smoothest broken down, lunatic, bad mannered "show" horses I have had the displeasure of dealing with. Every breed has good and bad but most of the horses I have found to be unfailingly reliable and hard riding we without fail something with ranch or old style Quarter Horse close up or entirely in the family tree.

I think I will save my pennies and go find a good finished ranch horse. If you have some ranches the you can recommend wr I would be ever so grateful!


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## aoconnor1

Harmony_Meadows said:


> What use is a "smooth trot" when the horse breaks down at 8 years old and can only be ridden with joint injections or has chronic foot problems from having feet so darn small they fit in my pony's shoes?
> 
> Niki has a very smooth gait and is quiet and even tempered. Frankly I find thoroughbreds to be way too sensitive and not as hardy as a good working Quarter Horse. It seems breeders now a days are breeding form over function. I think that is grits backwards myself. If I wanted a thoroughbred I would have one. I have no desire to have one.
> 
> I could care less about the worthless, broken down, small footed garbage they now call show horses. They are a joke. They last a couple years before their body rebels against its very design. Give me a good using horse, one that can do the job I ask of it and can still pack my big ol' butt around when most horses have been buried for 10 years or more. Any horse can have an ok jog but if you can't sit a rougher trot then you don't know how to ride. No sense blaming the horse because you are lazy. I have ridden a lot of different horses over the years and a lot of different breeds, cross outs and what not and I have had all kinds of trots to sit to. Some were down right awful but sorry, they didn't come from the ranch horses or the older style Quarters, they came from the appendix crosses and the thoroughbreds. And one really nasty pony but that is another thread.
> 
> Point is I would rather have a long lasting, well tempered, easy riding but rough trotted Quarter Horse than some of the smoothest broken down, lunatic, bad mannered "show" horses I have had the displeasure of dealing with. Every breed has good and bad but most of the horses I have found to be unfailingly reliable and hard riding we without fail something with ranch or old style Quarter Horse close up or entirely in the family tree.
> 
> I think I will save my pennies and go find a good finished ranch horse. If you have some ranches the you can recommend wr I would be ever so grateful!


I was agreeing with you I have a lot of rough trotting, teeth rattling QH's, and I wouldn't trade one of them for any fancy show horse. I was simply responding to the post about QH's rough trots, saying I have one that has a natural smooth, slow trot. He was not trained for it or bred for it. It was just the way he was.

Anyway, I hear ya. My horses work my ranch first, then they are maybe able to play in the ring


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## Irish Pixie

Harmony_Meadows said:


> What use is a "smooth trot" when the horse breaks down at 8 years old and can only be ridden with joint injections or has chronic foot problems from having feet so darn small they fit in my pony's shoes?
> 
> Niki has a very smooth gait and is quiet and even tempered. Frankly I find thoroughbreds to be way too sensitive and not as hardy as a good working Quarter Horse. It seems breeders now a days are breeding form over function. I think that is grits backwards myself. If I wanted a thoroughbred I would have one. I have no desire to have one.
> 
> I could care less about the worthless, broken down, small footed garbage they now call show horses. They are a joke. They last a couple years before their body rebels against its very design. Give me a good using horse, one that can do the job I ask of it and can still pack my big ol' butt around when most horses have been buried for 10 years or more. Any horse can have an ok jog but if you can't sit a rougher trot then you don't know how to ride. No sense blaming the horse because you are lazy. I have ridden a lot of different horses over the years and a lot of different breeds, cross outs and what not and I have had all kinds of trots to sit to. Some were down right awful but sorry, they didn't come from the ranch horses or the older style Quarters, they came from the appendix crosses and the thoroughbreds. And one really nasty pony but that is another thread.
> 
> Point is I would rather have a long lasting, well tempered, easy riding but rough trotted Quarter Horse than some of the smoothest broken down, lunatic, bad mannered "show" horses I have had the displeasure of dealing with. Every breed has good and bad but most of the horses I have found to be unfailingly reliable and hard riding we without fail something with ranch or old style Quarter Horse close up or entirely in the family tree.
> 
> I think I will save my pennies and go find a good finished ranch horse. If you have some ranches the you can recommend wr I would be ever so grateful!


Most Quarter Horses today have some TB blood. Three Bars, one of the great Quarter Horse sires, was actually a registered Thoroughbred. The input of the TB on early Quarter Horses was a good one, in my opinion. *ETA*: Eighteen of the first nineteen registration numbers assigned to horses in vol. I of the American Quarter Horse Stud Book were saved for living horses that had proved themselves as outstanding sires of offspring of Quarter Horse type. Examination of the pedigrees of these horses indicates that many of them carried in excess of 50 per cent of Thoroughbred breeding, and only a very few of them did not carry some known Thoroughbred breeding rather close up in their pedigrees. From: http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/quarter/

In fact, I'll go on to say that AQHA's epic failure was closing the book too early. That's why there are the genetic problems HERDA, MH, GBED, PSSM, and LWS. Most, if not all, are also rampant in Paints and Appaloosas. There _shouldn't_ be a LWS problem in Apps but it still occurs. 

The manner that AQHA dealt with the Impressive/HYPP problem is why I'll loathe them until my last breath. That problem could have have been stopped in it's tracks within a decade, at most, if Impressive and any horse that was n/h was banned from breeding. AQHA was, and still is, all about the money in my opinion, and a great breed suffers because of their greed.


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## Fetherhd

Look for horses of the Hancock line. These are big powerful thick built horses that can go all day. My Shooter was a hancock bred mare...not the prettiest thing in the pasture but built like a tank. Hancocks DO have a rep for being a bit bronky but mine was as level headed and easy going as they come. you can see a pic of her here http://fetherhd.deviantart.com/art/Big-Gals-314657736


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## aoconnor1

Fetherhd said:


> Look for horses of the Hancock line. These are big powerful thick built horses that can go all day. My Shooter was a hancock bred mare...not the prettiest thing in the pasture but built like a tank. Hancocks DO have a rep for being a bit bronky but mine was as level headed and easy going as they come. you can see a pic of her here http://fetherhd.deviantart.com/art/Big-Gals-314657736


I have a coming 3 year old Hancock bred gelding. Really sweet, level guy, big and stocky, rough as all get out! But he will be a phenomenal roper. Not bronky at all, thankfully, but yes, I have heard that as well.


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## mulemom

NFQHA may have since changed its rules but my QH stud (put down a week ago) was a great grandson of Impressive and registered with NFQHA. He was 84%, also a great grandson of Silver Cash, Smutty Bill and King Brownjug. Back when he was registered with the nfqha they calculated their foundation percentages strictly on how many TB's were in a horse's heritage.


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## mulemom

Love everybody's pictures. Around me they've taken 'breedy' looking QH's to the extreme. Straight legs, nice v'd chests, big hips, short backs, broad foreheads, little ears-all have taken a backseat to to long, stringy and smooth. What I never understood is why at QH shows the horses that won at halter weren't sound enough to show in anything else-and that was thirty five years ago. My pictures aren't very clear but the mare with the horse foal was a 83%nfqha, the mare with the mule foal is her daughter (full sister to the little filly). Old mare was put down last week-still have three of her daughters including the one in the picture.


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## Fetherhd

aoconnor1 said:


> I have a coming 3 year old Hancock bred gelding. Really sweet, level guy, big and stocky, rough as all get out! But he will be a phenomenal roper. Not bronky at all, thankfully, but yes, I have heard that as well.


I am jealous...I miss my Shooter!


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## mulemom

Sure is nice to hear that there are still people out there who know the old bloodlines. Haven't heard names like Hancock in years. I worked for a dealer back in the '60's who brought in a lot of ranch horses from out west-Texas, Oklahoma etc. Bloodlines like Hancock, Peter McCue, King, Leo and Skipper W. Good solid working horses, most had a little buck when cold which I figured meant the cowboys kind of liked it since it didn't take much to convince most of them to stop it. They had a jog you could sit all day but only the slowest canter wouldn't twist you. Glad there are still some of those horses out there.


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## unregistered41671

mulemom said:


> Sure is nice to hear that there are still people out there who know the old bloodlines. Haven't heard names like Hancock in years. I worked for a dealer back in the '60's who brought in a lot of ranch horses from out west-Texas, Oklahoma etc. Bloodlines like Hancock, Peter McCue, King, Leo and Skipper W. Good solid working horses, most had a little buck when cold which I figured meant the cowboys kind of liked it since it didn't take much to convince most of them to stop it. They had a jog you could sit all day but only the slowest canter wouldn't twist you. Glad there are still some of those horses out there.


MM, you almost brought tears to my eyes. Yep, I remember all of the above and a few more. Peppys and 3Bars. Have owned Hancock, Leo, Skipper W, Peppy, and 3Bars bloodlines. Lots of good memories.


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## aoconnor1

Possum Belly said:


> MM, you almost brought tears to my eyes. Yep, I remember all of the above and a few more. Peppys and 3Bars. Have owned Hancock, Leo, Skipper W, Peppy, and 3Bars bloodlines. Lots of good memories.


Check out my boys...and one filly whose registration is still pending, but will be done in another few weeks...her dam is Charlie's Cash Note, her sire is Eye Soar. I absolutely love the old lines. So many great, great horses, and I keep the old lines going on my ranch as much as possible. My boys are same sire siblings, a year apart. I own Shawnees Ladybug, who gave me Pepsi. The other boys dam is not mine, I bought the colt at five months. 

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/docs+dualing+pepsi

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/juno+i+am+king+jaffe

And my filly, her dam and sire: 

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/charlies+cash+note

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/eye+soar


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## mulemom

Love it Aoconnor1 and thanks Possum Belly. Here's a few more for you. The bay mare with the heart star (Heartbreaker) was by my first stud. His sire-Brandy Crook was by Vandy by Going Light(TB) and out of a daughter of Leo who was out of a daughter of Red Man. His dam was by Wister Star and out of a daughter of Half Pint by Hardtack(TB) who was out of a daughter of 7D Waggoner. Breaker's dam was sired by Darin's Skip by Sir Skip out of a daughter of Joe M Moore and out of a mare by Pocket Cash who was out of a mare by Stormy Day Moore. Couple more we shouldn't forget-Pacific Bailey, Gold King Bailey, Oklahoma Star, Bert and Bar Money. Love it guys and thanks for the incentive that made me look at registration papers for the first time in a long time.


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## aoconnor1

Thanks guys! I am pretty happy with my QH kids, they are very old style, very cool horses.


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## GrannyCarol

When I was a teenager, our neighbor bred a few QH's. He had a gorgeous stud that was a Three Bars grandson (in the 60's) that was a roan. At the time I was mainly English/dressage oriented and I thought his mares were rather homely little things, but the foals were spectacular, he must have been doing something right! I wish I remembered the name of his stud properly, I keep thinking it was Steel Bars (shimmery blue roan that was almost white), but I can't find any reference to Steel Bars online anywhere. 

Anyone out there know anything about that stud? Or who it might really have been, if I have the name wrong? We were located in the Kirkland, WA, area.

Edit: I just ran a check on "Steel Bars AQHA" and came up with a Three Bars son, who was black. Perhaps that was the father of my neighbor's horse, it certainly wasn't him!


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## aoconnor1

Here is Steel Bars. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/steel+bars

You can look him up, then drop down the "reports" box on upper left and click on "progeny". You might see the horse you are talking about...


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## goodhors

Well if the horse at the neighbor's was a Three Bars grandson, by the black Steel Bars, he could have been a roan. 

Locally, the Three Bars stallions seemed to pass on the TB thin soles in their foals. Just needed to be kept shod to stay sound, which cost more in keeping them usable. We saw quite a number of Three Bars grand children horses come thru locally, some bred, some purchased, so you got a pretty good idea of his production points. 

Had the same thing with Eternal Sun, LOTS of production, he put the body on the foal, mare put on the legs. Some had "very interesting legs, hooves" on those animals. Eternal Sun was heavily promoted and shown, was the local "Legend" horse for Michigan, but with poor choices in broodmares, those babies could be good lookers and totally unsound to use.

We had an own son of Poco Bueno for a while. He was the "ugly duckling" from that family of stout, square, bulldog family! Horse was not bad looking, but NO ONE would have put him as coming from Poco Bueno stock. Horse was 16.2H, lanky with nice conformation, in a land of small horses. We got him from a lady who was scared of him, but he was not a beginner horse. Couple rides and he was back to being obedient, nice to handle. Husband used him for Hunter classes, over fences, did quite well with him. Would NOT jump anything over 3ft (closed his eyes and hit it), so we sold him on to a lady who just wanted a Trail horse and she enjoyed him for many years more. Just was not the kind of horse they wanted to see in the QH ring at that time, stuck out like a sore thumb towering over everyone else. He had a nice big English trot, canter and hand gallop, could walk a hole in the wind, huge over stride., Did the Western trit-trot, SLOWWW canter if asked. Very adjustable because we worked with him, which is why he did so well for the Trail Ride lady. She could match gaits with anyone, good enough rider to be in-charge using him. 

QHs are not my favorite breed. Just hate what has been done to them for use in the show arena. And with their planned obsolescence as 8-10 year olds, not worth having to me. You put in the time training, then they fail because body can't handle work or stress. Stuck with horse for the next 15+ years as a pasture ornament costing you money and time. I know TOO MANY folks with those kinds of QHs. We are into owning and using our horses fairly hard, so they need to be usable over those many years for all of us (horses also!) to have a good time on outings.


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## secuono

I've seen this posted before all over the place.

Anyone care to post good side pictures of the old type and then of the new type with all the issues?


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## aoconnor1

goodhors said:


> Well if the horse at the neighbor's was a Three Bars grandson, by the black Steel Bars, he could have been a roan.
> 
> Locally, the Three Bars stallions seemed to pass on the TB thin soles in their foals. Just needed to be kept shod to stay sound, which cost more in keeping them usable. We saw quite a number of Three Bars grand children horses come thru locally, some bred, some purchased, so you got a pretty good idea of his production points.
> 
> Had the same thing with Eternal Sun, LOTS of production, he put the body on the foal, mare put on the legs. Some had "very interesting legs, hooves" on those animals. Eternal Sun was heavily promoted and shown, was the local "Legend" horse for Michigan, but with poor choices in broodmares, those babies could be good lookers and totally unsound to use.
> 
> We had an own son of Poco Bueno for a while. He was the "ugly duckling" from that family of stout, square, bulldog family! Horse was not bad looking, but NO ONE would have put him as coming from Poco Bueno stock. Horse was 16.2H, lanky with nice conformation, in a land of small horses. We got him from a lady who was scared of him, but he was not a beginner horse. Couple rides and he was back to being obedient, nice to handle. Husband used him for Hunter classes, over fences, did quite well with him. Would NOT jump anything over 3ft (closed his eyes and hit it), so we sold him on to a lady who just wanted a Trail horse and she enjoyed him for many years more. Just was not the kind of horse they wanted to see in the QH ring at that time, stuck out like a sore thumb towering over everyone else. He had a nice big English trot, canter and hand gallop, could walk a hole in the wind, huge over stride., Did the Western trit-trot, SLOWWW canter if asked. Very adjustable because we worked with him, which is why he did so well for the Trail Ride lady. She could match gaits with anyone, good enough rider to be in-charge using him.
> 
> QHs are not my favorite breed. Just hate what has been done to them for use in the show arena. And with their planned obsolescence as 8-10 year olds, not worth having to me. You put in the time training, then they fail because body can't handle work or stress. Stuck with horse for the next 15+ years as a pasture ornament costing you money and time. I know TOO MANY folks with those kinds of QHs. We are into owning and using our horses fairly hard, so they need to be usable over those many years for all of us (horses also!) to have a good time on outings.


Sure, if you start a horse at 2 and beat the crap out of them for 5 years then of course they will be broken down pasture ornaments by the age of 8 or 10. Thoroughbreds are no different, and I have plenty of them as proof. Any breed will break down under those conditions, not just QH's. I have several very solid QH's that are just fine, mainly because I let them grow before I get on and start pushing them physically. I am still riding my coming 20 year old TB mare because I haven't abused her physically, and I plan to still be on her in 5 years. Same with my QH gelding that is 15, he is solid and will go for years to come barring a catastrophic accident. It is in the working of them and how it is done and at what age that will generally determine a horses working longevity.

Ask 10 people, you will get 10 opinions. It's all in what an individual wants and likes.


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## GrannyCarol

I did look through Steel Bars' progeny and found nothing that seemed right for the stud I knew, thanks. Maybe he's just not in the database.


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## rambotex

Irish Pixie said:


> Most Quarter Horses today have some TB blood. Three Bars, one of the great Quarter Horse sires, was actually a registered Thoroughbred. The input of the TB on early Quarter Horses was a good one, in my opinion. *ETA*: Eighteen of the first nineteen registration numbers assigned to horses in vol. I of the American Quarter Horse Stud Book were saved for living horses that had proved themselves as outstanding sires of offspring of Quarter Horse type. Examination of the pedigrees of these horses indicates that many of them carried in excess of 50 per cent of Thoroughbred breeding, and only a very few of them did not carry some known Thoroughbred breeding rather close up in their pedigrees. From: http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/quarter/
> 
> In fact, I'll go on to say that AQHA's epic failure was closing the book too early. That's why there are the genetic problems HERDA, MH, GBED, PSSM, and LWS. Most, if not all, are also rampant in Paints and Appaloosas. There _shouldn't_ be a LWS problem in Apps but it still occurs.
> 
> The manner that AQHA dealt with the Impressive/HYPP problem is why I'll loathe them until my last breath. That problem could have have been stopped in it's tracks within a decade, at most, if Impressive and any horse that was n/h was banned from breeding. AQHA was, and still is, all about the money in my opinion, and a great breed suffers because of their greed.



Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner; nice factual post


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## rambotex

Joe Hancock was sired by John Wilkens and his Dam was half Percheron. Wilkens was Inbred to the Tb Voltigeur


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## rambotex

As Bob Kleberg said: " when it works it's Line breeding, when it doesn't, it's Inbreeding"


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## rambotex

Kleberg started the QH Linebeeding; story below: Please note the 2 books at the bottom of the article by Bob Denhart, great reading:


The Old Sorrel - Foundation Quarter Horse - AQHA Hall of Fame

The Old Sorrel (1915) - AQHA Hall of Fame Stallion
The main business of the King Ranch revolves around thousands of head of cattle. Hundreds of saddle horses are required to run the ranch. Most of the cowboys are vaqueros of Mexican and Indian descent who have lived on the ranch all their lives. Cattle were made to be worked by horsemen and the King Ranch vaqueros are among the greatest. They savvy horses and cows.

The owners of the King Ranch have always been cowmen, who when on the ranch put in a day's work, generally in the saddle. They know and demand good cow horses. Robert J. Kleberg, Jr., the man most responsible for their Quarter Horses, found that the racing Thoroughbred left something to be desired as a cow horse. This is why the ranch started its horse program which eventually resulted in the now famous King Ranch Quarter Horses.

Although Bob Kleberg was not sold on the Thoroughbred as a cow horse the South Texas Billy horse did not fill his eye either. Billy horses were too compact to fit Kleberg's desires, so he looked for a sire of Quarter Horse breeding with which he could perpetuate the qualities he admired in both types. He wanted to eliminate some Thoroughbred characteristics and combine the good features of the Thoroughbred with the temperament, maneuverability and cow sense of the Quarter Horse. Caesar Kleberg, who ran the Canales division of the ranch, saw eye to eye with Bob, and it was Caesar who actually purchased the prototype for the King Ranch Quarter Horses, the horse that was to become known as The Old Sorrel.

The colt was about six months old when Caesar first saw him in 1915. He was sired by Hickory Bill and out of a Thoroughbred mare owned by George Clegg which came from Kentucky. The colt was not delivered to the King Ranch until the fall of 1918, shortly before the end of World War I in Europe.

When the Clegg horse arrived at the ranch, it was named George Clegg after its breeder. However, as the years went by, the vaqueros around the ranch just referred to him as "El Alazan Viejo" or The Old Sorrel. The name stuck. He was registered as The Old Sorrel. When he was broken, both Bob and Caesar Kleberg rode him until they were satisfied he could do it all. Some of the things they were especially looking for and found were temperament, cow sense, endurance, intelligence, and a good mouth.

Bob Kleberg knew exactly how he was going to breed the horse he wanted. He had been most successful in setting characteristics not long before when he created the Santa Gertrudis cattle.2 He planned to repeat approximately the same program with The Old Sorrel by selecting outstanding mares. He also had some Quarter mares which he planned to use in his program.

The top colt of the first cross of The Old Sorrel and a Thoroughbred mare was Solis. It must not be assumed that Solis was selected immediately from the first colt crop. There had been a continual elimination process which Kleberg supervised. The bottom half were gelded and put in with saddle horses. The top half were carefully broken and ridden by the family and the other top horsemen. Then they were ranked in all their activities. Selected fillies were also put through this routine. When the top three or four stallions were selected, each was given a carefully screened group of half sisters and some hand-picked Quarter mares for an outcross.

When the foals of this second cross arrived, they went through the same process of culling and selection. It was then decided that Solis was best. In 1940, when the first registrations were being made by the association, eight sons and grandsons of The Old Sorrel were being bred to bands of mares who were daughters and granddaughters of The Old Sorrel. Something like three hundred mares were involved in the program, and another five hundred of both sexes were still being tested and culled. It was from these groups that the horses were selected to be registered. Just over one hundred were registered. Some of the more familiar sires of the horses registered were Solis, Tino, Cardinal, Ranchero, and Little Richard. There were also ten or twelve mares by Chicaro. In almost every case, The Old Sorrel was the sire or grandsire.3

As time passed, some great horses were produced, all bred about the same way. Take Wimpy, for example. He was half Quarter Horse and half Thoroughbred, close to what Bob Kleberg wanted. To define Wimpy's breeding in another way, a son of The Old Sorrel was bred to a daughter of The Old Sorrel. The son had a Thoroughbred dam and the daughter a Quarter Horse dam.

This breeding employed by Kleberg may seem a little close, or tight, as inbreeding is sometimes called. It may be tight for the average breeder with only thirty or forty mares, but when undertaken by a master breeder and geneticist like Bob Kleberg--using several hundreds of mares--it works. Proper individuals and careful culling insures success, and the desired characteristics are set.

Other examples of Kleberg's breeding were Peppy, who won the Fort Worth show in 1940, and Macanudo, who won the Kingsville show a few months before the Fort Worth show. Peppy was by Little Richard by The Old Sorrel and out of a daughter of Cardinal by The Old Sorrel. Macanudo was by The Old Sorrel and out of a Hickory Bill mare. All were top horses. It is to the credit of The Old Sorrel that his colts have been outstanding in all activities, roping, cutting, racing, and showing. They are all-round horses.

2 Robert J. Kleberg, Jr., had done the next to impossible by establishing a new breed of beef cattle, the Santa Gertrudis. This was a Brahma-Shorthorn cross that was ideally suited for the hot, damp climate of the Gulf Coast. Before the creation of the AQHA, he was well on the way toward creating his own breed of sorrel cow horse, by crossing the Thoroughbred and the Quarter Horse. When the AQHA was formed, Kleberg joined the association and registered his horses in the Quarter Horse Official Stud Book. For an excellent description of the King Ranch activities read The King Ranch, by Tom Lea.

3 The officials making the first inspection trip to the King Ranch were Jim Minnick, Lee Underwood, and I. We were escorted on our rounds by Bob Kleberg, Dr. J. K. Northway, and Lauro (Larry) Cavazos. Dr. Northway is internationally famous as a veterinarian and was Kleberg's consultant on livestock matters. He had been intimately connected with both the Santa Gertrudis and the Quarter Horse programs. Cavazos was the ranch foreman. He knew the history and location of every animal on that ranch. Incidentally, he was one of the two or three outstanding horsemen I have ever known. Reference is made here to the following works by the above men: Robert J. Kleberg and A. O. Rhoad, "The Development of a Superior Family in the Modern Quarter Horse," The Journal of Heredity, August, 1946; Dr. J. K. Northway, "Like Begets Like," The Cattleman, September. 1965. Another excellent treatise on that ranch's horses is "King Ranch Horses,' Cattleman, September, 1940.

This story was taken from the book by Robert Moorman Denhardt - Quarter Horses: A Story of Two Centuries. (For more reading, check out another book by Denhardt - The King Ranch Quarter Horses.)


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## aoconnor1

Thank you Rambotex for the excellent information. A lot of that I didn't know, some of it I was familiar with. The TB cross outs I was most familiar with because I still breed a lot of old lines with cross outs in them, as well as a few lines with both TB and QH sires and dams close in on the paper. My young filly is one off those, a great mix of solid QH's and phenomenally athletic TB's that join into one great foal. My first of this particular cross left me before he turned two in a catastrophic, mortal accident. His full sister is my filly, and she is going to be awesome?

Thanks for a great response, I never know what to write, but I know what I like and what I think.


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## rambotex

You will thoroughly enjoy reading these:

This story was taken from the book by Robert Moorman Denhardt - Quarter Horses: A Story of Two Centuries. (For more reading, check out another book by Denhardt - The King Ranch Quarter Horses.)


I bred a colt that was 38% Old Sorrel that I named "New Sorrel" Somebody else wanted him worse than I did so I sold him. I'll try to find a copy of his papers or if one of you have access to pedigrees look him up. He was intensely Linebred out of a son of El Rey Rojo and a daughter of Hired Hand Cardinal


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## bergere

Had an Old Dac Bar mare, back when I was a young teen. Nice thick legs, big hooves, nice and solid.
Level top line, nice thick arched neck... just an over all nice QH.

Have seen less and less over the many years... now a days... Personally, what I have seen in person... are not what I would call a QH. They are so distorted it is scary.


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## rambotex

bergere said:


> Had an Old Dar Bar mare, back when I was a young teen. Nice thick legs, big hooves, nice and solid.
> Level top line, nice thick arched neck... just an over all nice QH.
> 
> Have seen less and less over the many years... now a days... Personally, what I have seen in person... are not what I would call a QH. They are so distorted it is scary.


There are still some out there you just have to look for them. The two Eyed jack horses always had a lot of bone and weren't crossed on the Doc Bars with the frequency of others


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## aoconnor1

rambotex said:


> There are still some out there you just have to look for them. The two Eyed jack horses always had a lot of bone and weren't crossed on the Doc Bars with the frequency of others


I love the big boned, stocky look and conformation. I also like some height though, so kind of like the Sunny Dee Bar line, Sir Quincy Dan, etc. They are old lines, on the Doc Bar side though. It's, to me, a matter of combining the best of the old lines to create the look you like..


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## mulemom

Thanks Rambotex-lots of good old names there.


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## goodhors

aoconnor1 said:


> Sure, if you start a horse at 2 and beat the crap out of them for 5 years then of course they will be broken down pasture ornaments by the age of 8 or 10. Thoroughbreds are no different, and I have plenty of them as proof. Any breed will break down under those conditions, not just QH's. I have several very solid QH's that are just fine, mainly because I let them grow before I get on and start pushing them physically. I am still riding my coming 20 year old TB mare because I haven't abused her physically, and I plan to still be on her in 5 years. Same with my QH gelding that is 15, he is solid and will go for years to come barring a catastrophic accident. It is in the working of them and how it is done and at what age that will generally determine a horses working longevity.QUOTE]
> 
> You totally missed the point I was aiming at, the fact that the QH breeds animals that are NOT BUILT to be working horses in way too many instances. Doesn't matter if you don't start them until age 5 or later, horse still is likely to have poor feet, with a body to big above those hooves. It is the genetics of their parents coming thru in the foals produced to be the "next" generation of riding/show animals. These body issues cause the short work life, navicular is huge in QHs, can't "cure it". There are other common body problems in the QHs, just ask why "that horse" is retired, you hear many reasons, horse hasn't made age 10yrs. Then they breed those ones. There is little or no culling of bad specimens, as happened in the King Ranch breeding example. People have too much invested in that horse, breeding and "family lines" are needed to maybe get some return on the crippled animal.
> 
> What the AQHA promotes is USING your QH in MANY WAYS, from foal onward. They have invented classes never heard of before, to use those baby horses you can't ride yet like lunge line classes. Tiny circles are hard on bones of ANY horse, but especially on the soft, growing bones of babies. Shows have 2yr old classes that pay money, get points, so owners have those babies out working way too young, even not beating on them. Some are ridden before their actual 2yr birthday. They get LOTS of mileage on those babies, so they ARE quiet and steady in the show ring.
> 
> The whole system is at fault, but NO ONE in the business can afford the cost of letting foals grow up before training them to ride except ranchers. You get nothing back from a horse not being shown or worked, yet still steadily costing money! Hard to sell those unshown animals, break even, let along turn a profit, to get your money back on them. You are not going to change the AQHA system, cranking out horses with short use times, everyone in it thinks the whole deal is "NORMAL!!"
> 
> I am fortunate in only having horses for ourselves, not needing to make them "pay their way", so we can raise them to suit ourselves. They get handled every day, trained to use about 3-4 yrs, depending on mental and physical readiness. Some just are not ready yet. They grow slowly, without being over stuffed using the "latest trend" in feeds and every supplement advertised. They still get big, 16-17h, as genetically programmed to be. Have nice big feet to fit the large bodies they will have as adults, so horse can take the work we will use him for, able to gallop as needed. Old-fashioned raising but they have good minds in work, last and last in work. We like them, they like us. Just not suited for everyone, too big and too smart, along with taking MUCH too long to grow up. No brains as 2yr olds, and most of the 3yr olds are no improvement, with the 5 second attention span.


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## GrannyCarol

Back in the 60's I had a little grade QH - he stood 14 3 hh and had a heavy body on small legs. He was a very cute little horse with really crooked feet. He was about 8 yrs old and came out of MT. When we got him, he seemed to know how to canter in little circles and walk and didn't know how to trot at all. No wonder, when I did get him trotting, his trot was horrible! His feet were so crooked that the inside of his shoe was 2" longer than the outside. He winged out from the knee pretty badly when he moved...

However! He was kind, had a wonderful mind, was never lame in the several years we had him and was just the nicest and most reliable little horse. I loved him dearly! 

Since I was mainly an English rider with dressage roots, I did teach him to trot and even cadence and extension. In a year his straight stubby neck developed an arch and muscle and he learned to carry himself. His trot was a lot better, though never smooth. His manners were impeccable (with a few exceptions - he did trust me to be able to ride him if he suddenly was headed home from the trails instead of going out, silly horse!) and I could let a kid show him and he'd never miss a gait or a lead. He was just a lot of fun and, when we moved and had to sell our horses, he went to a ranch in Eastern OR where he had a wonderful home. I have some really fond memories of him, though he was no halter horse and doesn't seem to fit the description of "old time QH" either. I'll have to see if my father has a scan of any pictures of him, since my dad and my brother are scanning all dad's old pictures.


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## bergere

Old Doc Bar mare I had was 14.3 and a smidge.. didn't quite stick out at 15 hands.
Back then, most QH's I was around,, were that height. 
Easier to rope calves to brand, at this height. 

Friend had a Music line QH.. mare was spazzy and nuts... but she was more refined.


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## aoconnor1

14.3 isn't a bad height at all. I am quite tall, 6 feet to be exact, and so I do tend to prefer my horses taller than average, about 14.3 and taller. Saying that though, I am breaking my little QH mare right now and she is maybe 14.1 on her tippie toes! But she is a blast to ride and a real good girl. She is a cutter, so her size is to her advantage, though on my ranch she will be a reined cow type horse rather than a cutter. She is choppy at a trot and lope, but that is just how she is. I will enjoy riding and working her for many years to come, she is put together nicely, has good feet, a sound mind, and is getting started correctly...at age 5. I won't compromise on soundness just to get on them earlier. This mare, as all my horses are, was started lightly under saddle at 3, worked daily at 4, and ready to rock and roll at 5. That way I can ride them well into their 20's barring any unforeseen accidents or illnesses.

I breed for sanity, conformation, temperament, and soundness out of lines proven to be those things. There are definitely some QH lines I simply won't touch because of the various issues they have, but there are still some really good, solid, sound lines that I have no problem breeding.

I fully understood what Goodhors was saying, and agree to some extent. The difference is that I like QHs and Goodhors doesn't. I see a lot of issues in a lot of breeds, not just QH's, and some of them are issues I wouldn't want to deal with any more than others don't want QH issues. So all told, every breed has it's nasty little secrets that none of us want to really know or talk about, like Walkers and their painfully mistreated feet, TB's and their too young start at racing, Arabs and their conformation issues, etc. I specifically breed for certain traits that will improve my breed's good points, and remove the bad points, as should all involved in breeding any type of horse, and I applaud what the King Ranch has done in their breeding program for many, many years. Knowing the issues is power, and breeding to eradicate them is smart. I wish more QH people did just that, but they don't, and lots of other breed owners don't either.


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## GrannyCarol

aoconnor1 said:


> ...So all told, every breed has it's nasty little secrets that none of us want to really know or talk about...


That statement caught my eye, as it is so true of not just horses, but any thing you go to breed. You need to know the secrets and that takes time being in your species/breed and lots of experience. That's why places like the King ranch can make a HUGE difference in a breed. They know the details of their bloodline for generations. 

Inbreeding and linebreeding are good tools for someone that is willing to put in the work, the time and the heartache to learn a bloodline. When I used to breed dogs, I found that 6 generations in, I really knew some things about my bloodline and also the other lines in the breed. I learned that one dog that broke his jaw as a six week old puppy (for no apparent reason), though a lovely dog and great in other ways, a few of his offspring down the road also broke bones for no particular reason as puppies. None of my other dogs did. After the third one, I decided they just didn't have solid bones as they grew and weeded that line out of my program. Too bad, by then there were some lovely dogs that went back to him. 

I used to breed for a high percentage of relationship to certain dogs that were prepotent for traits I wanted and to keep the percentage of inbreeding moderate, that worked well for me. 

I find it interesting today to go back to that breed and look at the dogs in the bloodlines, from the breeders I knew 40 years ago. You can see the stamp in those bloodlines - generally I could tell you which dogs came from which kennels and most of those breeders are still breeding today. The same faults and strengths are out there, not a lot has changed. A friend wanted to buy a male to show 3 years back, she showed me pictures and gave me pedigrees... her boy is a Gr Ch, group placing dog. Then she wanted another one, I helped her through pictures, who the breeder is, pedigree... he just finished his Ch at age 18 months. I saw the pictures of those two at 8 weeks and said, "buy him!" both times. Both bred by long time, highly experienced, breeders with a good reputation and both very good examples of their bloodlines.


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## aoconnor1

GrannyCarol said:


> That statement caught my eye, as it is so true of not just horses, but any thing you go to breed. You need to know the secrets and that takes time being in your species/breed and lots of experience. That's why places like the King ranch can make a HUGE difference in a breed. They know the details of their bloodline for generations.
> 
> Inbreeding and linebreeding are good tools for someone that is willing to put in the work, the time and the heartache to learn a bloodline. When I used to breed dogs, I found that 6 generations in, I really knew some things about my bloodline and also the other lines in the breed. I learned that one dog that broke his jaw as a six week old puppy (for no apparent reason), though a lovely dog and great in other ways, a few of his offspring down the road also broke bones for no particular reason as puppies. None of my other dogs did. After the third one, I decided they just didn't have solid bones as they grew and weeded that line out of my program. Too bad, by then there were some lovely dogs that went back to him.
> 
> I used to breed for a high percentage of relationship to certain dogs that were prepotent for traits I wanted and to keep the percentage of inbreeding moderate, that worked well for me.
> 
> I find it interesting today to go back to that breed and look at the dogs in the bloodlines, from the breeders I knew 40 years ago. You can see the stamp in those bloodlines - generally I could tell you which dogs came from which kennels and most of those breeders are still breeding today. The same faults and strengths are out there, not a lot has changed. A friend wanted to buy a male to show 3 years back, she showed me pictures and gave me pedigrees... her boy is a Gr Ch, group placing dog. Then she wanted another one, I helped her through pictures, who the breeder is, pedigree... he just finished his Ch at age 18 months. I saw the pictures of those two at 8 weeks and said, "buy him!" both times. Both bred by long time, highly experienced, breeders with a good reputation and both very good examples of their bloodlines.


Exactly, all of it! I researched every horse in every line of any horse I even thought of breeding and any stallion that I thought of breeding to. It took me 7 years to try breeding my big TB mare, sadly she took once, lost it, and never came in foal again. My QH mare took me over a year of hard, sound research through multiple outlets to settle on a stallion I thought could improve on a couple of things about my mare, and the stallion brought that to the foal in a fantastic way. I couldn't have gotten better with any other stallion and mare combo. But I researched for hours and hours and hours. That is the difference between a good breeder and a breeder out for the money only. Improving the line, whether it be horse, dog, or whatever, should always be the main focus of breeding.

Anyway, I think we sort of veered off topic a little! Sortof! But I love talking horses


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## rambotex

With regard to the King Ranch program: Dr. Northway closely inspected all of the foals and many were sent to the Mexico slaughter houses if they were defective. I remember the story of the Ranch sending an Employee with the trucks hauling these animals and staying on the premises until all had been killed. 

As I said in an earlier post; Kleberg said: "When it works it's Linebreeding, when it doesn't, it's Inbreeding"


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## rambotex

I don't know why some folks feel the need to express their personal dislikes for certain breeds. I like QH's; I don't like several other breeds but you won't find a single post on this site with me criticizing them.


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## Irish Pixie

If people are referring to Goodhors's post to indicate that she "hates" Quarter Horses, I didn't take it that way. I think she feels, like I do, that the Quarter Horse show breeders (halter breeders in particular) along with AQHA, are the problem. The original Quarter Horse, not the peanut rolling, bred to be unsound caricature it is now, was a wonderful versatile horse. Certain lines, and some breeders, are continuing (or trying to breed back) the original horse but AQHA and it's profit-at-any-cost mentality is making it very very difficult. 

Just my observation. And personal opinion is what makes conversation.


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## rambotex

I Pixie - I never mentioned any particular poster and did not mention the word hate. I used the words Dislike and criticize . Maybe you should take your own advice concerning the control panel


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## rambotex

Two Eyed Jack Mare


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## rambotex

We once stood 4 Grandsons of Leo at the same time.


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## Irish Pixie

rambotex said:


> I Pixie - I never mentioned any particular poster and did not mention the word hate. I used the words Dislike and criticize . Maybe you should take your own advice concerning the control panel


And I didn't mention you either, did I? Are you saying I should put myself on ignore? Or you? I'm confused as I definitely don't have a sensitive soul. 

Opinions make the world go round...


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## rambotex

I don't care either way, suit yourself


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## unregistered41671

All over some horse bloodlines. It always seems to end this way.


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## Irish Pixie

Possum Belly said:


> All over some horse bloodlines. It always seems to end this way.


Do you have an opinion on bloodlines or Quarter Horses in general? Or just like to :stirpot:


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## rambotex

QUARTER HORSES




QUARTER HORSES. The unique American quarter horse has evolved from a quarter-mile racer into the most diversified horse in the world. Although its origin can be traced to the colonial era, the American quarter horse gained a reputation as a faithful mount during the Texas open range era, particularly during cattle drives to northern railroads. The breed began in the Virginia and Carolina colonies, when colonists bred their stallions, which were a mixture of Galloway and Hobby breeds tracing back to the Spanish Barb, to the Chickasaw Indians' mares. These Chickasaw horses were also descendants of the Spanish Barb, mounts of early Spanish explorers. The hybrid resulted in the "Celebrated Quarter of a Mile Running Horse," a quick, powerful, compact sprinter. These speedy horses soon gained fame racing down the streets of colonial towns in quarter-mile races, a favorite pastime of American forefathers. As America prepared to battle for its independence, equine breeding was also experiencing a revolution. The Godolphin Arabian, which arrived in England around 1728 and is considered one of the three foundation sires of the thoroughbred breed, revitalized English horses by adding refinement and speed. His grandson, Janus, foaled in 1746 and imported to colonial Virginia, had a pronounced effect on colonial stock. Described as muscular and compact, with great bone and speed, Janus's genetic legacy came to be used to plow fields, pull wagons, and carry travelers in the development of the frontier. It was this utility that distinguished the thoroughbred from the quarter horse.

As Texas was settled, the American quarter horse became part of the developing open range cattle industry. The transition of the American quarter horse from a sprinter to a cow horse began after the Civil War. South Texas was rich in cattle that had been left unattended during the war. Money was scarce and cattle were cheap. With Reconstruction underway, the demand for beef in the east prompted entrepreneurs to gather cattle and drive them north to railheads in Kansas, Missouri, and elsewhere. It was during this period that American quarter horse stallions were mated with mustangqv mares used on the Texas range. The results were strong, agile mounts of adequate height, capable of enduring the harsh climate. Gathering wild cattle in South Texas required a mount with speed and strength. These traits were useful for cowboys in gathering, roping, branding, and other activities on the open range and subsequently on the great ranches established after the trail driving era, such as the King Ranch, the Waggoner Ranch, the Four Sixes, the JA, and the XIT.

The most influential sire on the Texas strain of the American quarter horse was the legendary racer Steel Dust. Foaled in Kentucky around 1843 and brought to Texas a year later, Steel Dust gained a reputation as a quarter-mile match racer. Steel Dust cemented his fame when he was matched against another Kentucky-bred horse named Monmouth at a race in Collin County, near McKinney. High wagers were set on the hometown favorite Monmouth, but Steel Dust won the race. He also won several other highly-publicized races before an injury ended his racing career. The legend of this stallion's racing capabilities resulted in a demand for his progeny. Steel Dust descendants were valued for their speed and were sought by cowboys for use on ranches. Thus, cow horses were often called "Steeldusts." Another horse to influence the Texas strain of American quarter horses was Shiloh. Foaled in Tennessee in 1844 and brought to Texas in 1849, Shiloh helped establish many great Texas American quarter horse bloodlines. Shiloh was a descendant of Sir Archy, a thoroughbred stallion that had great influence on the American quarter horse breed between 1800 and 1850. Also widely known in Texas was Gen. Sam Houston's stallion Copper Bottom, also sired by Sir Archy and brought by General Houston to Texas in 1839. His progeny were famous racers along the Texas coast. Other American quarter horse stallions proliferating the breed during the early part of the twentieth century, were Billy, who founded the Billy strain of horses, Traveler, Dan Tucker, and Peter McCue.

Although some written breeding records had been kept, there was no formal registry for the American quarter horse in the early twentieth century. William Anson, an Englishman by birth and Texas rancher by choice, began researching the breed in the late 1800s. Anson settled in Christoval in 1893 and is credited with tracing the origin of the American quarter horse to colonial times. He preserved history and pedigrees of the breed. More research on the American quarter horse and its claim to being a distinct breed was done by Robert Denhardt. After accepting a teaching position at Texas A&M University, Denhardt began to research Steeldust horses. Both Anson and Denhardt provided research that formed the basis for a registry. In March 1939, at the Southwestern Exposition and Fat Stock Show, Denhardt met with several breeders and presented his idea for a breed association. During the next year Denhardt wrote more articles on the American quarter horse and visited with people involved with the breed. On March 14, 1940, a group of interested livestock industry leaders gathered in Fort Worth for another meeting that led to the formation of the American Quarter Horse Association. Hosting the meeting in their home were Mr. and Mrs. James Goodwin Hall (see TANDY, ANNE VALIANT BURNETT). Mrs. Hall was the daughter of Thomas L. Burnett and the granddaughter of Samuel Burk Burnett, who founded the Four Sixes ranch. Some of those on hand for the meeting were Robert J. Kleberg, George A. Clegg, Dan and Jack Casement, W. B. Warren, Walter Hudgins, J. H. Minnick, and Denhardt. The next evening, March 15, 1940, seventy-five people gathered for a third meeting, where a charter for the organization was presented by Denhardt, stock was sold, directors were elected, and by-laws were adopted. Included in the by-laws was the mission statement: "The purpose of this Association shall be to collect, record and preserve the pedigrees of Quarter Horses in America, to publish a stud book and registry, and to stimulate any and all other matters such as may pertain to the history, breeding, exhibiting, publicity, sale, or improvements of this breed in America."

The first elected AQHA officers were: W. B. Warren, president; Jack Hutchins, first vice president; Lee Underwood, second vice president; Jim Hall, treasurer; and Bob Denhardt, secretary. Denhardt worked out of his home and so did subsequent executive secretaries until association offices were set up in Fort Worth in 1946 and permanently moved to Amarillo later that year. The by-laws also called for registration requirements based on conformation, pedigree, and performance in both show arenas and races. The first AQHA-approved show was held in July 1940 during the Texas Cowboy Reunion at Stamford. Serving as judge was J. H. Minnick, an AQHA director. Another milestone was set during the 1941 Southwestern Exposition and Fat Stock Show in Fort Worth, when the King Ranch-bred Wimpy, by virtue of being named the grand champion stallion, was designated as P-1 in the AQHA Stud Book.


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## unregistered41671

I was not referring to you in particular but I did post about some bloodlines at the beginning of this thread but maybe I was wrong...


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## Irish Pixie

Possum Belly said:


> I was not referring to you in particular but I did post about some bloodlines at the beginning of this thread but maybe I was wrong...


Wrong about what? In my opinion, the lines you teared up about are good ones...


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## wr

I think most QH people have bloodlines they prefer and those they don't. The breed has evolved a bit beyond the traditional cowhorse and there was a time when I thought the breed was being destroyed but I kinda figure that diversity has likely kept the breed alive because there are only so many working ranches left in North America so the breed diversified. 

I'm pretty rabid about Impressive bloodlines but more because it bothers me that HYPP was one of those things that was not discussed until it became too big to ignore and it's caused a lot of people a lot of money and heartbreak. 

I feel that there will always be a certain amount of breeders that are like myself and will breed a more traditional style QH but the sad reality of any breed is that breeding trends often reflect the desires of the buying public.


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## SueMc

I have a 26 y/o "old build" gelding, bred and raised by a hard core team penning man. I got my boy as a 3 yr old because while he knew what to do, he didn't care if he chased a cow or not. 
I need to dig out a pic when he was in his prime, all dappled dark grey instead of just white haired now like me!


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## aoconnor1

I strongly dislike that a faction of a breed are used to describe an entire breed. Halter horses don't represent all Quarter Horses. And ALL Quarter Horses are not useless, ugly, deformed, or broken down. I have had Quarter horses of some sort all of my life just about, and still haven't come across one at my ranch that is as bad as some think they are!. Sure they may be out there, but so are Arabs, TBs, Standarbreds, Walkers, Paints, Mustangs, Appaloosas....getting the drift here? 

I have tried to not be rude on this thread. The OP asked a sime question that should have been answered by the folks who know the answer, not by those who dislike the whole breed.


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## Irish Pixie

aoconnor1 said:


> I strongly dislike that a faction of a breed are used to describe an entire breed. Halter horses don't represent all Quarter Horses. And ALL Quarter Horses are not useless, ugly, deformed, or broken down. I have had Quarter horses of some sort all of my life just about, and still haven't come across one at my ranch that is as bad as some think they are!. Sure they may be out there, but so are Arabs, TBs, Standarbreds, Walkers, Paints, Mustangs, Appaloosas....getting the drift here?
> 
> I have tried to not be rude on this thread. The OP asked a sime question that should have been answered by the folks who know the answer, not by those who dislike the whole breed.


And I dislike it when people try to control what and what can not be posted in an open forum. 

I never said ALL Quarter Horses are anything... please read my post again, carefully this time.  Don't get all upset because I have an issue with your horse of choice's registry and _some_ breeders.


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## aoconnor1

Irish Pixie said:


> And I dislike it when people try to control what and what can not be posted in an open forum.
> 
> I never said ALL Quarter Horses are anything... please read my post again, carefully this time.  Don't get all upset because I have an issue with your horse of choice's registry and _some_ breeders.


I wasn't talking about you Irish Pixie, my post was directed toward the few who trashed the breed as a whole. Only the halter horse part was at all a response to what you said. Other than that, I strongly agree with what you said about the whole Impressive issue and what the breed registry DIDNT do about it.

All registries do things that are wrong, that are only about the money and not about the horses or their health, conformation, etc. The OP asked a specific question about old line QHs and if there are any more, which turned into those of us who love the breed defending it to those who don't like the breed at all and couldn't help but make it known.

I hate what happened with Impressive, but I and my horses are not a part of that and neither are a whole lot of other Quarter Horse owners. We have a great breeding program in our area that has a lot of breeders going with old lines and breeding for great horses. As it should be.

Trying to control what is said on a public forum? No. But how about those who have nothing to add to the original question except negativity because they can't stand the breed being talked about, staying out of a discussion about a breed they so dislike!


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## sidepasser

goodhors said:


> Well, though your present horses used to day may be listed as Foundation, or now look "bulldog", many have a lot of TB in them, which I think improved the gaits. Maybe some folks bred for BETTER gaits, since then.
> 
> Those horses back "in the old days" were built as they were, many with short pasterns, upright shoulders, which gave them the pounding trot when you were not going as slow as possible. They had Draft blood in them for size, bone, often other breeds that were not tracked, so their builds came from undocumented animals of misc. breeding, but accepted into the QH registry by their looks. Early showing QHs came from this background and then produced more of themselves as time went on. The outcrossing with TB gained speed, better flexibility, helped with longer pasterns, shoulder angles in getting better gaits. I would believe that a number of those Foundation Horses would be laughed out of the QH ring now, just SO different than what you see in QHs today with big feet, plain heads, short necks.
> 
> The present "slower than slow, trot in place" ring gait, is not a new phenomena. VERY common in earlier times of QH or Western horse showing, so riders were not bouncing in their western saddles thru the classes. Those horses DID have great walks, huge overstride each step, which was a big bonus to folks in the saddle all day in getting places. Canters also were pretty good, though often kept quite slow, for comfort again, especially pretty in the show ring not tearing around the other horses.
> 
> The super slow gaits changed over to Judges wanting "normal" looking gaits, not speedy, but FORWARD in the show ring. That lasted for 15-20 years, now back to the hardly moving horses in QH shows, because folks can't really ride, gaits can STILL be rough, and Judges have been trained to think "Slow equals well-trained" instead of being lame as so many QHs are now. QH has had to make Rules asking for Forward Progress in classes! Have two Canters, one has to SHOW FORWARD now, and SHOULD be asked for in the classes.
> 
> Glad some folks have smooth horses at the Trot, surely is the gait most useful in a long day riding.


Some QH lines have Arabian in them and a few old lines will still singlefoot. I bred old style QH for years until finally dispersed my mares and my stallion. My stallion was a direct son of Sonny Go Lucky. Most of my mares were Blackburn, King, and Poco Bueno bred. I quit breeding in 91 because I could not raise a colt and sell it for what it was worth due to folks just about giving away colts. Dispersed the 20 broodmares and my stallion and sold all the colts.

I bought a few mares off the King Ranch during the mid eighties..they always have some nice stock on the working ranch and have a dispersal sale every year. Also, check with some of the non-foundation breeders, just regular old ranch stock. You can find some really nice bred old style working blood. 

I don't like the "foundation" bred stock as they are in-breeding to keep the 80 percent or better bloodlines. Too much concentration of lines for my taste. Watch for Herda..particularly nasty genetic disease, but NOT ALL Poco Bueno horses have it. Pocos have a head full of sense, I have owned several and all were really nice and easy to train, very willing.

Hancocks are a whole nuther ball of wax and if you can get them broke, they are good horses, but they do have a mind of their own. 

I like the old King P234 horses and Blackburn bred horses are to die for. My daughters showed a blackburn bred mare in jumping, western pleasure, and halter and did well. Then took her out and showed her in pole bending and barrels and did well. Old heifer really loved to work too. I strongly suggest looking for close up Blackburn bred horses. They have a trot to die for too, very soft. Ugly headed beasts, but really workers and very kind.


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## rambotex

Sidepasser- enjoyed your post. I had a wonderful Daughter of Poco Cuff that was a great mare. I also had 3 Granddaughters of P234 that were great mares. I loved the Leo's; especially crossed on the King's. I never had any of the Blackburn's and did not care for the Hancock's heads although they had a lot of bone . I don't believe I ever owned a Doc Bar other than a Doc Olena filly I had one time.

Sounds like you were around for the good times. I too picked up the phone one day and made a call to a Lady in the Hill Country of Texas. She sent a 30 ft Gooseneck the next day and bought everything I had except my Two Eyed Jack mare and Easter Gentleman gelding.


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## mulemom

Wish I'd been a little more proactive like Rambotex and Sidepasser but I waited too long. Pics are of a couple of my probably permanent pasture ornaments, last foals born when you couldn't (still can't) give a horse away around here.


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## aoconnor1

Mulemom, they are lovely I especially like the little Palomino, looks similar to a filly I wound up giving away last spring to my farrier and his wife. They fell in love with her, I wasn't using her at the time, now she is theirs. I ride the other 7 QH's I own, except for my weaning filly. I do love me some nice old line QH's


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## Allen W

sidepasser said:


> Some QH lines have Arabian in them and a few old lines will still singlefoot. I bred old style QH for years until finally dispersed my mares and my stallion. My stallion was a direct son of Sonny Go Lucky. Most of my mares were Blackburn, King, and Poco Bueno bred. I quit breeding in 91 because I could not raise a colt and sell it for what it was worth due to folks just about giving away colts. Dispersed the 20 broodmares and my stallion and sold all the colts.
> 
> I bought a few mares off the King Ranch during the mid eighties..they always have some nice stock on the working ranch and have a dispersal sale every year. Also, check with some of the non-foundation breeders, just regular old ranch stock. You can find some really nice bred old style working blood.
> 
> I don't like the "foundation" bred stock as they are in-breeding to keep the 80 percent or better bloodlines. Too much concentration of lines for my taste. Watch for Herda..particularly nasty genetic disease, but NOT ALL Poco Bueno horses have it. Pocos have a head full of sense, I have owned several and all were really nice and easy to train, very willing.
> 
> Hancocks are a whole nuther ball of wax and if you can get them broke, they are good horses, but they do have a mind of their own.
> 
> I like the old King P234 horses and Blackburn bred horses are to die for. My daughters showed a blackburn bred mare in jumping, western pleasure, and halter and did well. Then took her out and showed her in pole bending and barrels and did well. Old heifer really loved to work too. I strongly suggest looking for close up Blackburn bred horses. They have a trot to die for too, very soft. Ugly headed beasts, but really workers and very kind.


I had a mare that went back to Poco Bueno nice horse, she was past her prime when I had her but still a willing horse. She's probably riding greener pasturesand chasing buffalo with old Curly now. He rode her before I had her and died shortly before I lost her.


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## rambotex

mulemom said:


> Wish I'd been a little more proactive like Rambotex and Sidepasser but I waited too long. Pics are of a couple of my probably permanent pasture ornaments, last foals born when you couldn't (still can't) give a horse away around here.


Nice Mule Mom. I hear'ya about the prices. there is also the fact that many people don't have land in Rural areas to ride now. Kids around here would rather have a four wheeler or other type of ATV. Sadly, other than the Arena people and a few Ranches, the days of horses are gone. I'd come home from school and throw a bridle on my Gray mare and ride to my neighbors' houses to play or whatever. Those days are long gone. the wife and I are lucky that we have 40 acres and a big timber company block across the road from the house we can ride on. can't go on the timber tract right now because it's Hunting Season here but we'll be able to do some riding after January.

I liked your pictures, my kinda horses.


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## wr

rambotex said:


> Nice Mule Mom. I hear'ya about the prices. there is also the fact that many people don't have land in Rural areas to ride now. Kids around here would rather have a four wheeler or other type of ATV. Sadly, other than the Arena people and a few Ranches, the days of horses are gone. I'd come home from school and throw a bridle on my Gray mare and ride to my neighbors' houses to play or whatever. Those days are long gone. the wife and I are lucky that we have 40 acres and a big timber company block across the road from the house we can ride on. can't go on the timber tract right now because it's Hunting Season here but we'll be able to do some riding after January.
> 
> I liked your pictures, my kinda horses.


To this day, I can't ride a bicycle because when I got my first bike, it bucked me off a couple times, once into an irrigation ditch so I retired the evil thing. My old bay gelding had never treated me with that kind of disrespect so I retired the bike.


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## mulemom

Thanks Rambotex. I still love watching my 'eye candy' QH's. I always preferred 14.2 to 15H horses but my two favorite horses to ride were my first stud (the sire of the dams of all the horses in the pics), 1967 16H son of Brandy Crook and my 1987 16H Gunmetal Bars daughter out of a Coy's Bonanza and Two Eyed Jack mare. Neither would have made good ranch horses, too long legged and not quick enough, but they were fun to ride. The old stud had a miserable jog but an all day canter and all you had to do was shift your weight and he'd switch leads back to front. The mare has a fantastic jog and canter and she'd tackle hills and brush like it was the greatest fun.


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## harvestmoon1964

mulemom said:


> Thanks Rambotex. I still love watching my 'eye candy' QH's. I always preferred 14.2 to 15H horses but my two favorite horses to ride were my first stud (the sire of the dams of all the horses in the pics), 1967 16H son of Brandy Crook and my 1987 16H Gunmetal Bars daughter out of a Coy's Bonanza and Two Eyed Jack mare. Neither would have made good ranch horses, too long legged and not quick enough, but they were fun to ride. The old stud had a miserable jog but an all day canter and all you had to do was shift your weight and he'd switch leads back to front. The mare has a fantastic jog and canter and she'd tackle hills and brush like it was the greatest fun.


How does a horse switch leads back to front?
My wife has been involved in dressage for years and I have less experience than she does, but never heard of such a thing.


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## GrannyCarol

A horse normally switches leads while they are in the air between strides (the canter or lope should be a three beat gait with all four legs off the ground for a moment). The first foot to come down should be the rear foot away from the leading side. Then there should be the diagonal pair, then the leading front foot. Hence the horse changes leads from the back to the front. 

If the horse is on the right lead, his left rear foot will come down first, then his right rear with the left front, then the right front. The feet will come off the ground in that order with the right front giving the last push off. The horse bunches up in the air, then comes back down on the left rear. 

If it changes leads properly, from right to left (in our example), it will then bring down the right rear, the diagonal of the left rear and right front, then the left front, leading leg. 

Hopefully that will help explain it. Maybe some online videos will help.


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## Irish Pixie

Most lead changes are front to back because that is the natural way for a horse to change. Most changes from back to front are taught.


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## GrannyCarol

My background is in dressage, so I suppose that is why that is what I am familiar with.


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## malinda

Flying changes are not asked for in Dressage until Third Level (only about 20% of Dressage riders are Third Level or above). A common problem is a horse who changes "late" behind. Hunters and Jumpers teach their horses flying changes much earlier in their careers but those changes are not as clear or correct as Dressage riders strive for.


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## aoconnor1

malinda said:


> Flying changes are not asked for in Dressage until Third Level (only about 20% of Dressage riders are Third Level or above). A common problem is a horse who changes "late" behind. Hunters and Jumpers teach their horses flying changes much earlier in their careers but those changes are not as clear or correct as Dressage riders strive for.


I have a question but not about flying leaf changes. 

Why was I shot down hard and fast for saying that my former instructor was able to take me to the Fourth Level echelon of Dressage should I be able to and desire to achieve it? I was called out and "corrected" by the Pony Club faction here on the forum for saying that my instructor is a Fourth Level rider/judge/seminar speaker, etc. and was told there is no such thing as Fourth Level, but you just spoke of Third Level or above with no problem? Is there a difference, or am I misunderstanding the terms?! I would appreciate an honest, not belittling response.

I am not trying to hijack your thread, I am simply asking an honest question...


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## Irish Pixie

aoconnor1 said:


> I have a question but not about flying leaf changes.
> 
> Why was I shot down hard and fast for saying that my former instructor was able to take me to the Fourth Level echelon of Dressage should I be able to and desire to achieve it? I was called out and "corrected" by the Pony Club faction here on the forum for saying that my instructor is a Fourth Level rider/judge/seminar speaker, etc. and was told there is no such thing as Fourth Level, but you just spoke of Third Level or above with no problem? Is there a difference, or am I misunderstanding the terms?! I would appreciate an honest, not belittling response.
> 
> I am not trying to hijack your thread, I am simply asking an honest question...


Are you referring to this exchange?



aoconnor1 said:


> Do you ride Dressage? Pony Club? *My trainer is an upper 4th level trainer, judge, speaker, as well as clinician. *She calls herself a Dressage trainer with up to upoer 4th level training available. She is very well known, so I guess maybe some of them do identify themselves at a level when asked.





basketti said:


> I've ridden with dressage trainers for the past almost 30 years, my daughters were both in USPC for many years . *There is no "upper 4th" level. Nor is 4th level considered an upper level. That starts at Prix St. George.* My trainer is a successful Grand Prix rider and is a consistent winner at the FEI level. This terminology is consistent and unvaried internationally.
> 
> And no...dressage riders all know that as soon as someone says something like Level 3 or heaven forbid, upper level 4..... they are posing.


As Basketti said, there is no "upper 4th level", and a dressage _trainer_ really should be at Prix St Georges which is considered the first "upper" level. That means that the trainer should be _testing_ at Prix St Georges level, not training at it. 

More information here: http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Fall08/Scheff/levels.html and at http://www.usdf.org/


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## malinda

Well, I totally missed that whole thread that Irish Pixie is quoting, but yeah, I would agree: nobody says "upper Fourth Level". There is Fourth Level, period. There are three Dressage Tests offered at Fourth Level at shows. Though there can be trainers who are at any level (or claim to be at any level). I don't necessarily think someone who is working on Intro/Training Level needs a Grand Prix trainer, but I do know that Grand Prix trainers are generally better - they explain things well, especially with regards to moving up the levels, and they just plain and simple have more experience. It takes a looong time to get to Grand Prix.


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## aoconnor1

Ok, I understand. I believe I said the "upper" portion myself, my instructor said my mare has been used up into Fourth Level. I know my instructor has competed in as well as trained others for the Grand Prix (and excuse my terminology if it is incorrect, I have ridden western disciplines my whole life until last summer). She is heavily involved in the Pony Club here in Texas and travels the country doing lectures and seminars and clinics. Her credentials are impeccable, it was my own verbage that was not correct. Saying that though, Malinda referred to Third Level or above, so what is above Third Level if not Fourth Level? Sorry if I am not understanding...and quite possibly my trainer said the same that Malinda did and my interpretation was "Fourth Level", which would naturally come after third level and above

I would like to learn more about Dressage and Eventing, but honestly, after interacting with some here on the forum as well as those in my own area who are involved in Pony Club stuff, I have found them abrupt and almost agressive to deal with, with a superior attitude I dont care much for. Simply answering a question without being nasty about it would go a long way for those of us new to THAT discipline, but not to owning, breeding, raising, training, showing in other areas of horses. I know it can be annoying explaining to others the proper terms, etc., but it would go down and be heard better when served with sugar rather than vinegar.

Thank you for the answer, I appreciate it. I am going to ask my trainer to clarify what she said so I am clear on what it was.


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## Irish Pixie

I believe you get back in the same manner that you present. If you present yourself knowledgeable in a subject, and then make newbie errors, what is the reader supposed to think? 

I haven't been involved in reining since I was a young adult, so I would never suggest that I'm knowledgeable in that area. If I tried to do so it would immediately be apparent that I was claiming to be something I wasn't. 

There is a 3rd and 4th level dressage, I don't think anyone said there wasn't, but the upper levels of dressage start at Prix St. Georges (5th) level. Think of Training through 4th level as high school, Prix St Georges Intermediate 1 Intermediate 2 as a Bachelor's degree, Grand Prix as a Master's degree, and Grand Prix Special as a PhD. 

Did that help?


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## aoconnor1

Yes. I am not at all knowledgeable in English disciplines, never at any point did I even intimate that I was. Western disciplines and medical I am proficient and have extensive experience in both. Am I an expert? Not at all. But there are things I could share that help others and that is my sole purpose in my responses I have given here.

Thanks for the info on the different levels. I honestly just didn't know. I probably won't go terribly far, I am starting at 50 rather than a teen, but I will go as far as I can.


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## malinda

Maybe where you're getting confused is the 3rd Level/level 3 thing. In Dressage it is called 3rd Level, it is never called level 3. Anyone who says Level 1/2/3/4 is instantly identified as a newbie.


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## malinda

Jumpers (but not Hunters) go from Level 0-Level 9, or more recently, they just list the height in meters. 

Eventing is categorized differently again. Training Level Eventing is not the same as Training Level Dressage. 

How's that for thread drift?


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## aoconnor1

Lol! Major thread drift, but I do honestly like getting to know the correct terms


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## Lisa in WA

aoconnor1 said:


> Lol! Major thread drift, but I do honestly like getting to know the correct terms


It's good that you do now, but you sure didn't back in that thread when you challenged me about Pony Club, etc.


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## aoconnor1

basketti said:


> It's good that you do now, but you sure didn't back in that thread when you challenged me about Pony Club, etc.


I'm sorry if it appeared I was challenging you, I don't recall being challenging, only felt rebuffed and rather picked on, and rather than just explaining it to me kindly it was as if I were an incompetent boob. I know absolutely next to nothing about any English discipline, but I didn't like being treated like I was an idiot for saying something I had heard, though heard incorrectly, and was questioning it. My experience is in western, but I want to accomplish some level of Dressage because it is the most lovely movement besides a running horse in my opinion. 

I am a lover of movement, it brings tears to my eyes to see a Thoroughbred running all out, or an Arabian strutting its stuff with ribbons flowing out of its mane and tail, or a big Warmblood gracefully floating on air with an accomplished rider moving perfectly in sync with the beauty under saddle. I love all disciplines for the most part, but owning several huge TB mares right now, one that is a very well trained Dressage mare that teaches me so much every time I ride, that finding a good trainer and learning Dressage is what I was trying to do. Sadly, my trainer has gotten very popular again (she had a very serious non-horse injury that set her back almost 3 years, and she took me on to train while she was recovering but now that she is up and running fully again, I got bounced to the back burner and she focuses only on her very talented young Pony Club girls, doing clinics all over the country, judging events, and going to shows with her girls). So I am learning what I can until I find another trainer worth working under that can take me to my first trial, which I am ready for but my other trainer really isn't interested in having me do mainly because I am just under 50 years old and I don't think she thinks I will make her look as great as the kids in her club do, and then on to whatever level I can attain after that.

So long story short, I want to learn, but really don't appreciate when those who can teach me act like I am stupid to begin with because I just don't know. Sticking up for my trainer wasn't to be challenging you, it was just sticking up for my trainer.


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## mulemom

HarvestMoon-if you watch some horses doing lead changes in many competitions, particularly with youths, you'll see the rider kind of lift the front into the opposite lead with the rear legs following into that lead. Cross canters-when the front is on one lead and the back is on another-happen when the hind legs do not follow the front legs into that lead. Watch an athletic horse running in the pasture and they will switch behind and flow into that lead with the front. I drive my husband crazy using slow mo on the remote when I see a horse that just naturally flows into lead changes. I've had people tell me that watching upper level dressage was like 'watching paint dry' but to me it's like watching poetry in motion. The really good reining horses are the same way but often they're moving too fast to see the effect.


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## aoconnor1

mulemom said:


> HarvestMoon-if you watch some horses doing lead changes in many competitions, particularly with youths, you'll see the rider kind of lift the front into the opposite lead with the rear legs following into that lead. Cross canters-when the front is on one lead and the back is on another-happen when the hind legs do not follow the front legs into that lead. Watch an athletic horse running in the pasture and they will switch behind and flow into that lead with the front. I drive my husband crazy using slow mo on the remote when I see a horse that just naturally flows into lead changes. I've had people tell me that watching upper level dressage was like 'watching paint dry' but to me it's like watching poetry in motion. The really good reining horses are the same way but often they're moving too fast to see the effect.


 Oh I agree completely about upper level dressage!! I love watching all of it

My Reiners are lovely to watch as well, as is my little cutting mare. They move so fast it's unbelievable! But the poetry in in the movement, no matter the speed


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## mulemom

Agree Aoconnor, every breed, every discipline has its own poetry.


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## fols

I never knew there was a foundation quarter horse registry. I looked at my horse's lines and thought he could qualify. So, I'm happy to say that I contacted fqha and he passed with 85.94%. Kinda neat to know. Not sure if I will register him - he's a gelding and I never plan on selling or showing. Just interesting to know some more about him.
Thanks to this post for showing me the registry!


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## aoconnor1

I got the "Foundation bred" numbers back today on two of my QH's so far, am going to check out two more in the next few days. My big mare is 88.09% foundation bred, my gelding is 83.64%. Kind of cool My mare qualified for registration tbut my gelding didn't because he has Impressive on his papers.


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