# Converting Forest to Pasture



## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Does anyone have any experience with this? We are looking to buy land for when I retire. My DW seems to have her heart set on, what I admit, is a beatiful parcel. Unfortunately, it is almost all forest. How difficult will it be to clear this and develop pasture?

The area inquestion is sloping, but not too steeply. It's about 30 acres total, but I don't want to clear all of it. I was thinking about 10 acres initially, and then clear another 10 in five to ten years. 

Thanks for your help.


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## Rocky Fields (Jan 24, 2007)

Hey.

You have to decide if you want to sell any trees to a logging company;a forester can advise you. If the logging company wants them, part of your work would be done and you would get some cash. You have to be explicit with logging companies where they can log up to...lots of them play dumb and keep cutting past where you told them to stop. Logging will leave a mess with stumps,branches/limbs left on the ground, and small trees or species they don't want still standing.

Clearing it yourself is alot of work. Some people clear a bit each year over a period of years. You need to leave a 4 foot stump. A backhoe is the best machine to pull over stumps. You can use a cat and shovel, but the backhoe is faster. The trees you cut can be turned into firewood or you can mill them yourself into lumber or you can have someone come in and cut firewood or you can have someone with a portable mill come in to make lumber. All of the above is dependant on what species of trees you have. Some are good for firewood and some are good for lumber and a few are marginally useable at best. The small limbs have to be burned, made into woodchips, or composted.

After clearing, you have to prepare the soil for whatever kind of grass you want to plant.

RF


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

I had thought of going the logging company / paper mill route depending on the type of trees. I understand I would have to get a survey done to find out what I had to work with. My concern with going this rout is that as you mentioned I would have all the stumps left over. How would I get them out? Is stump grinding an option? 

I had two pine trees in our yard that had to be removed. When we ground the remaining stumps, the wood chips made a very nice mulch, which I guess would be a good thing for preparing the soil. But we're talking about a forest - probably 3-400 trees per acre. That's a lot of stumps!


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## Scrounger (Jan 6, 2007)

Pray for lightning? :shrug: 

Are we talking large hardwoods , tall pines or small diameter conifers? 
I have a "forest" of 3" to 14" Red Cedar weeds that are so close a rabbit needs a chainsaw to get through them. I sheared them - and sawed them - as close to the ground as possible. The stumps rot in about 2 years. If they are large trees, cut them about 2' feet up and hire and track hoe to come get them out. 
If you have a large amount of tall trees, DEFFINATLEY hire a logging company.


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## Rocky Fields (Jan 24, 2007)

ArmyDoc,

You use a backhoe to pull them over or a bulldozer to push them over. That's why you need to leave a 4 foot stump...so there is something to latch onto and/or push against to get it out of the ground. The stump goes over on it's side with a big circle of roots around it.

Having a stump grinder come in, they usually only grind it a foot or so below the surface. It is also more expensive than the dozer/backhoe if you're looking to do acres of land. It doesn't get the roots which may come back to haunt you if you want to plow later.

RF


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Here is my last Fall project, the area was tree covered rolling hills. The timber was harvested by a logging company, a track hoe was hired to pulled the stumps and I used a track loader to move the stumps and my agriculture tractor to prepare the area for planting. We have been in a drought condition since the planting but even so the grass is surviving but we do need rain badly.


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## Jenn (Nov 9, 2004)

Hi ArmyDoc do I know you? Welcome to HT. I'm FP trained at Gordon and Bragg and out since '96.


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## RosewoodfarmVA (Oct 5, 2005)

If you aren't in a hurry, have a timber co CLEARCUT not selectcut. This will leave everything cut down with alot of stumps. After 4-5 years most of the stumps will have rotted to the point that they won't need pulling. All you will have to do is get a small bulldozer to clear the 10 foot tall regrowth and pile and burn it. It takes 1/3 the amount of time to clear regrowth than it does to pull stumps! So if you have 5 years to do it in, that would be my reccomendation.

One advantage of this method, which we have used at our farm, is that you don't upset the topsoil as much. Scraping 3" off with the regrowth brush is much less destructive to the topsoil than goin 3 feet deep to pull up stumps. Around here soil is not very deep, so the less you do to disturb it the better off you are. Another option would be to clearcut then fence in and graze the regrowth. Either goats or cows would do a good job eating regrowth. Then after 2-3 years just bushhog it, watching out for not-yet-rotted stumps of course.


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## MWG (Aug 14, 2006)

I had two pastures made and a timber co used the proceeds of the timber to pay them to stump it (I had to kick in a little more). After stumping it I planted pasture mix seed and fertilized the heck out of it. I didn't reseed, but wish I had. It will be a couple years before you could put animals on it...


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## Scrounger (Jan 6, 2007)

Rocky Fields said:


> ArmyDoc,
> 
> You use a backhoe to pull them over or a bulldozer to push them over. That's why you need to leave a 4 foot stump...so there is something to latch onto and/or push against to get it out of the ground. The stump goes over on it's side with a big circle of roots around it.
> RF


Hmmmmm. Around here, they just use a track hoe to rip it right out of the ground - no need to leave a 4' stump. 2' is more then enough. It's a different process in different parts of the country.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Does your wife love the property BECAUSE it's wooded? Might want to ask before cutting down all the trees.

For pasture, shade is important. When you start cutting, do it a little at a time. Take out all of the little stuff and see what you have. You may find that you have a nice, shady pasture with areas of full sun. You probably want to keep trees on the slope.

Trees will not only give your livestock shade in the summer, but a stand will give them shelter from the wind in the winter. What I'm getting at is, don't take out everything. Leave trees for your livestock, for the birds, and for the value they will bring in the years to come either as lumber or at some time in the future when you'll want to sell. Nice big trees are very valuable in the residential market.


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## js2743 (Dec 4, 2006)

if it is timber sell it and make a deal with the logging company to pile the brush and leave the stumps they will rot out. then put a fence around it as soon as possible and seed it with a native grass KY.31 fescue works real good as pasture grass. then get you some livestock, on 10 acres maybe 5 to 10 goats and couple cows or steers they will keep the regrowth from coming and it will be clean in a couple years.


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## donsgal (May 2, 2005)

ArmyDoc said:


> Does anyone have any experience with this? We are looking to buy land for when I retire. My DW seems to have her heart set on, what I admit, is a beatiful parcel. Unfortunately, it is almost all forest. How difficult will it be to clear this and develop pasture?
> 
> The area inquestion is sloping, but not too steeply. It's about 30 acres total, but I don't want to clear all of it. I was thinking about 10 acres initially, and then clear another 10 in five to ten years.
> 
> Thanks for your help.


Despite that your dw has her heart set on it, I would buy pasture land if I wanted pasture land. Spending the time and money clearing forest land is not cost productive. Start from zero not -100 by having to completely re-do the land. There is plenty of work to be had just running a homestead without having to deal with that. IMHO

donsgal


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## Farmerwilly2 (Oct 14, 2006)

I think I'd have to agree that unless there was a special reason for wanting the property you might be better off finding a parcel that already has pasture. Guess I just hate to see trees cut off if it can be avoided.


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## Rocky Fields (Jan 24, 2007)

Scrounger,

Stump length is determined by species,tree diameter,soil, and equipment used. Real sandy soil, you can use a chain and tractor. You get better leverage with a longer stump. 

RF


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## Scrounger (Jan 6, 2007)

Yeah - I know - we have sand, loam, clay - a mix of everything. They STILL only leave a foot or two of the stump. They usually dig them out, not lever them out. I've pulled small cedars (up to 6"- 7" in loam) with my tractor. I've also cut 24" Hedge, Ash, Cottonwood, Mulberry and Locust at 1' and dug them out with a hoe. Just different ways of doing it in different parts of the world. What ever works for you!


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Thanks for all the replies! I'll try give a bit more information.

First off, I haven't actually seen the land yet, as I'm currently in Iraq. We were planning to buy a different property which actually had a large pasture, but the deal fell through. God's providence I think, since I got deployed shortly after what would have been the closing time. So now we are again in the process of trying to find land.

Unfortunately, but in this area most properties are completely forested and any pasture land is more of the exception than the rule. I found a 40 acre place on the MLS, with a beautiful 10 acre spring fed pond/lake. DW went to look at it the other day. She seems to be quite taken with the place, but the remaining 30 acres are in mixed hardwood and pine.

If I understand the majority of the posts, the recommendation is to have a timber company clear cut the areas I want to convert to pasture, and then either let the stumps rot or have them pulled depending on my time frame. Consensus seems to be stump grinding is too expensive and not as effective. What does it cost to have the stumps pulled?

Maura, I don't want to clear the whole place - I like trees myself. What I was thinking about was clearing 5 - 10 acre pastures with 50 - 100 ft of brush cleared "forest" between them. I'd like to leave about 200 ft around the perimeter of the entire property essentially as it is now. The only thing that concerns me is how practical this is, and the fact that it greatly decreases the "usable" land.

RosewoodfarmVA, you suggested grazing in the clear cut area and letting the stumps rot in place. Is this safe for the animals? I imgagine the stumps are not a problem at first, but as they rot do they cause holes that the animals might step in and hurt themselves? I would only be starting of with a few cows and maybe some goats for the first 4-5 years. Eventually I would like to raise about 10-15 cattle. 

Jenn, we probably do know each other. I did my General Surgey Residency at EAMC and have been stationed there off and on since '93. I'll send you an e-mail.

Thanks again for all your help!


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## Thoughthound (Oct 13, 2004)

No help here.

I'm trying to go from pasture to timber.

You e-mail me some trees and I'll e-mail you some sod.


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## gracie88 (May 29, 2007)

I have stumps in my field. They were big trees (doug fir). They are partially rotten now but it will be a loooong time before I have holes. Really, the only trouble I can see is that they are unattractive. My goats love climbing on them. I would be more inclined to worry about horses with their long, spindly legs than goats or cows.


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## Scrounger (Jan 6, 2007)

Thanks for your service!


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

We have acreage of forest, we are trying to convert some of it to pasture and some to farmland.

We have a lot of buried logs, stone and huge ruts [left over from each time this land was logged]. 

Without further heavy equipment, leveling it is near impossible.

Digging out the buried logs is very difficult. I have un-earthed logs as long as 40 foot long before they turn down deep and disappear. They are very hard to remove.

I destroyed one new Sears 7hp Rototiller [rear-tine] by breaking the transmission. The warranty does not cover the transmission. I have bought their largest rear-tine rototiller now 7.5hp, but I am hesitant to use it.

I snap the pins about every four to five feet.

I was recently told [by our local organic inspectors] that converting forest land over to productive farm land generally takes three generations.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2007)

Watched a show this last weekend called America's Heartland and they had a segment about harvesting hardwood trees. Depending on the size some of them were going for up to $2000. each. They showed a couple of guys going around the property and cutting all the lower branches off the smaller trees so they will grow taller and straighter. Said they would be ready for the next harvest in about 20 years. 

I thought this to be very interesting. Most of the time around here when someone buys up a plott of forest they have it all bulldozed off and don't recieve a darn dime for any trees. Then they spend a life time trying to make cattle and hay farming pay for itself. 

Sounds to me like theres more money in harvesting trees!


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

ET1 - now I understand a previous comment you made about taking 60 years to make farm land..... 

In many areas forest land is very thin, Not much organic matter. Acidic. And low in nutrients. The trees recycle their leaves/ needles, and go deep deep for the little nutrients they need to add a 1/16th inch of wood each year.

These soils would take a very long time to build up 'naturally' into prime ag land.

Prairie soils can be thin too, but many are deeper, and tend to be more what crops & produce are looking to root in.

Hummm, 40 acres, 10+ are a pond. Want 5 acres for a house/garden/ yard/ buildings I would think. That leaves 20 to 25 for pasture & forest.

I don't consider 100-150 feet of trees to be a 'forest', but....

Those borders are holy heck on fences. Trees shed branches, lean over, mess up the fence. Constant upkeep. The grass doesn't grow well on the border either, too much shade. The trees grow crooked & not as tall when they don't compete with each other, so no good trees any more.

I was thinking you might pick out a more open corner, & turn that 10 acres into a pasture. Leave 10-15 acres of actual forest.

I'd have to think about your patchwork idea, don't think I like it at all on first brush..... Lot of negatives. Just doesn't mesh well with how forest & how pasture like to grow.

imho, here in the northern part of the USA.

--->Paul


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Rambler,

There was an initiative here a several years back to try and recreate habitat for the bobwhite quail. Seems in "the olden days" farms were smaller with fields averaging 5-10 acres, with areas of shrubs or trees in between. The huge farms cleared out these areas and converted much larger pastures, decreasing the quail habitat. Supposedly there was money available for people who were willing to convert back to this style. Don't know if it would be available for some one trying to establish it from forest though.
My thought was to set the fence line in about 10 to 15 feet from the trees. This would provide some wind break and some shade, without endagering the fence line or making it impossible to grow grass. This area between fields wouldn't be true forest, more like just a tree line to sepparate the fields, with some shrubs like azaleas etc. 

The back 150 feet or so I would leave alone. That would blend in with the forest land behind the property. So it really would be forest, even though only 150 feet would be mine. It may be better to make one big pasture, for efficiecy sake. But if I could make it work with smaller pastures with not too much more work, I think it would be nicer to live with. 

From what the more recent posts are saying about 2-3 generations of before you get pasture, it maybe more of a project than I'm willing to take on. But 60 years seems extreme to me. I was thinking it wouldn't take more than 5-10 years. I may have to re-think this if that's the case.


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## moore_farm (Jan 11, 2006)

Down in my area dozer rental is 500 bucks for 10 hours that also include delivery. You can do a lot in 8 hours after you learn to drive it using the first two. What Kid donât want to drive a bulldozer


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Dozer rental to knock down and push off the trees;

A chainsaw to cut-up the trees;

A tractor and farm wagon to haul out the firewood [a street vehicle will not 
likely be capable of driving in the area for all the ruts];

Excavator rental to dig out the stumps and rocks;

A truck to receive the stumps and rocks, to haul them away;

A tractor with a disc harrow to slice-up the ground and fill in the ruts;

A second excavator rental to dig-out and remove the rocks that the disc harrow discovered;

Further tractor disc harrowing to knock the area down flat and level.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

ArmyDoc said:


> My thought was to set the fence line in about 10 to 15 feet from the trees. This would provide some wind break and some shade, without endagering the fence line or making it impossible to grow grass. This area between fields wouldn't be true forest, more like just a tree line to sepparate the fields, with some shrubs like azaleas etc.



So much of farming depends on the location. As always I see advise that is just nuts for 'here' but must work real well for 'there' on a topic like this.   So, my comments are just conversation, and are how it is 'here'. Likely won't work quite right for someone 'there'. 

My Sis & brother in law bought 14 acres, 1/3 yard, 1/3 farm land, 1/3 ravine & trees. My brother in law is from the south, and has ideas for the place..... Several of his ideas need a lot of modification to actually work 'up here'. 

I'm sure things I write don't make much sense to those living in the south. Regional differences. 

Anyhow, my brother in law wants a path to mow beside his tree line & the field I plant for him. So, I moved over a row. He didn't do anything with it. Next year he said he wanted room for that path - so I moved over another row. He didn't do anything about it. This summer, he mentioned how it would be nice to have room for a path there...... There is about 15 feet there total, and with no trimming, you can't tell. Those trees spread right out right quick.  Soon I will not have any field at all, will be all 'path' which will be trees, and brother in law will wonder what I did?  The weeds under those trees are just miserable, as it is neither forest nor open grass land - harbors miserable weeds real well. I got to have a chat with brother in law, & get this path thing sorted out. That 15 feet is making farming the 2 acre field not worth it. Field gets smaller & weedier & less sunshine.....

Here woodchucks, raccoons, and mostly deer love those tree borders, and there is very little crop on my sis's fields. I do it for a hobby, fun for them to 'be farming'.  They have one of those 150' tree rows down the middle too.

Really messes up the field. Poor sunlight, poor breezes, sucks up the moisture, branches dropping allt he time, trees bending over intot he field to follow sunshine...... My yields are 1/3 less. Pasture will show the same, tho you won't 'notice' that because nothing goes through a bin....

Trees will quickly take over a 15' area. And more.

Who owns the land behind yours? Lots of threads on here of late about folks becoming an island surrounded by tract homes. You are planning to use your neighbor's land as your visual forest. Those things can change.


I don't believe it will take 60 years to make a pature. ET1 said 2-3 generations, & I always figure a generation is 20 years. That would be doing it naturally tho. If you lime, fertilize, and get the bulldozers/ excivators it should work out to have usable pasture in 3-5 years. Your soils will need to continue to change & mature into a prairie/ farmland soil over time, that can take 20+ years.


Just conversation, I don't really know anything.  I tend to be a dash of cold water around here, some folks prefer cheerleaders only. I want the best for folks, and feel looking at both sides of the issue is a good thing. Sounds like you have a good idea of what you want. And a direction on how to get there. Just take my chatter as a 'what if' and not as anything more. 

--->Paul


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

I can graze what was woods in 2 years here in NC. I usually limit the amount that is cleared to what I can manage to clean up alone, I need to mention that I own a trackloader. It may be only a few acres or up to 20 depending on the size of the trees and the time I have available. The left side of this photo was woods 2 years ago (when the photo was taken) and the photo was taken from a portion of the woods that remains.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Rambler,

No worries. Would much rather a ballance perspective than a "yea team!" approach - particularly if the plan won't work. I was just trying to give my thoughts - a word picture if you will of what I was shooting for. 
I once was on a plantation that had large live oak trees stretching accross a driveway from both sides, with pasture beyond them on both... was beautiful. Not exactly what I had in mind, but not too far off - I had pictured something with more of an understorey of dogwoods and azaleas. I would like a the "woodland glen" atmosphere - forest giving way to pasture if I could do it. It may not be practical.

Agmantoo,

I can't see any pictures. Am I doing something wrong?


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

What is it that you want to pasture? If it's only a few animals, do you NEED a pasture, or is there enough undergrowth to graze them in the forest? Hard to tell until you set foot on it and see what's there. I have a friend here who raises about 200 Hereford pairs, the only cleared land he has is for hay for the winter. They graze all summer and fall in dense hardwood forests. Takes more acres though.
The only full-fledged forest we've cleared was a worn-out sugarbush for row crops. We had a track excavator come in and take all the trees down, stump and all. He laid them down in rows with the stumps at the same end,we came through behind him and cut the stumps off and skidded out the logs, then he swept the stumps and heavy brush that was left into piles. All we had to do when he was done was disk it a couple of times and plant corn around the piles, in a couple years they were dry enough to burn.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Doc,
At the top of this page your will see some choices, the first being ..... user cp ..... . Click that and then on the left in a column that will come up you will see a choice ...... edit options ...... select that. Then drop down to where you can select ........ Thread Display Option..... and then in the .... checkbox...... check show images........ and you should then get the pictures when you open this discussion.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

agmantoo said:


> Doc,
> At the top of this page your will see some choices, the first being ..... user cp ..... . Click that and then on the left in a column that will come up you will see a choice ...... edit options ...... select that. Then drop down to where you can select ........ Thread Display Option..... and then in the .... checkbox...... check show images........ and you should then get the pictures when you open this discussion.


Hmm. Show images was already clicked. I tried unchecking and re-checking it. No change. Maybe the computers I'm on have some kind of blocking. I know I could see pictures at home... Thanks anyhow.

DaleK,
I plan to start out with 2 cows, hopefully pregnant when I get them. I haven't decided on goats or not, but I am leaning this way. I think free range chickens are also in our future. But my primary (first) project will be cattle.

My plans go something like this - first, have meat for the family. Branch into local market starting with friends and family looking for grassfed, holistically raised beef. Eventually I want to develop a heat tolerant strain of either Angus or Dexter, haven't decided on which.


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