# Help, please. Miscarriage. Doe not doing well.



## bloogrssgrl (Jan 20, 2008)

It's been a while since I've been here but I need some input/ideas.

I have a doe (5yo) that has always been fine with kidding. Yesterday she miscarried a set of triplets. It was late in the day. I found the babies and the after birth was starting to be passed. She was alert and eating - seemed to be doing ok. I had to leave but I checked on her again later that evening and all still seemed well.

Today, not so much.

She is lying down, mostly, but in obvious discomfort. She will stand up to turn around but lies down again. She will give a push and grunt now and then. On some of the pushes a pinkish fluid will come out.

I called my vet. A total waste of time. He has no interest in coming to look at her. Told me these things are common, blah blah blah, and not to worry unless more of the goats start aborting. (!) His solution - give her 2cc of penecillin over three days. (This is a vet that focuses on cattle and has rarely been any help with the goats. I have no one else in the area to turn to.)

So I gave her the penecillin and also a dose of Banamine. She had a temp of 103.9 when I took it last.

Breathing is labored because she is in obvious discomfort.

Not interested in eating today.

Any ideas on what I should do next?

Thanks in advance for your input.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

First I would wash up lube up and go in and see if you feel anything there maybe another fetus in there that she can't get out, get some fluid down her she may be getting dehydrated- even if you have to do it by syringe full. Keep us posted I will do some more research. Hang in there

Kris


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## bloogrssgrl (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks, Kris. Was just coming to terms with the idea of doing that. Heading out again see what I can do. Will check back.


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## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

My first thought was hypocalcimia. Not liking her still pushing the next day. I don't know whether her cervix would be closed too much to check. But if not, checking is easier than you might think, if you haven't done it before.


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## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

Do you have any lute and oxy this long after she may be closed up and yo may need to re dialate her with the lute


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## bloogrssgrl (Jan 20, 2008)

Ok, I tried to go in and check but can't my hand in very far. She immediately starts crying and pushing. As far as I could go, I couldn't not feel anything.

By the way, I have gone in with other goats to pull babies before, so it's not totally foreign - but, of course, never anything I look forward to doing. 

I do have lute and was wondering if that shouldn't be the next step. When I pulled my hand out, the discharge had a sort of funky odor but, not knowing entirely what the normal smell of a goat's uterus is, it's hard to say if it's normal or not.

So what do you all think...should I give her the Lute?


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## bloogrssgrl (Jan 20, 2008)

Update - I did some more internet research and decided to go ahead and give the Lute. Just administered 2cc IM.

Any idea how long it would take for this to do anything?


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Hmm My thought is a retained placenta that is starting to rot. I do not know how long the Lute will take hopefully others will chime in here. I do know that if the placenta is still in there and rotting if it doesn't come out you will lose her as she will become septic. She may be trying to push the placenta out. any does that I had that aborted always did fine so I have never had your situation. I will keep looking. Is her temp the same? You need to get antibiotics in her at this point.


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## bloogrssgrl (Jan 20, 2008)

Update - temp is at 100.3. Still no interest in eating. Not making efforts as much to push. Still lying down mostly - stood up a few times but I think more out of discomfort. Brought her some warm water with Karo which she eagerly drank but only small sips at a time.

I did start her on penecillin today. Is there another antibiotic I should be using? I am limited to what is a carried at TSC plus a bottle of Nuflor.

At a total loss as to what to do for her at this point.


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

I think you have a doe going into ketosis (hypocalciemia)....
Give CMPK right now. Can be found also as MSO... 30 cc orally every 2 hours for the first day and night if possible, if not just 1 time a night, then 2 times a day, then 1 a day... Even if you see improvement. CONTINUE with the CMPK for a week
Without calcium the uterus cannot contract back to a normal size, controls heartbeat regularity, etc...
Give B complex for support care.
Stop the penecillin... you are only killing good bacteria
Encourage fluids... an goat drinks a gallon a day. Not a bad idea to give probiotics...


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

What were you feeding? How far along was she?

A lot of times, people will mistake a miscarriage for sickness whereas its just the body saying "I can't keep up with these babies anymore because I don't get enough calcium".


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Had a doe like this. She would have died of infection if I hadn't taken her in to the vet who cleaned out the rotten placenta manually. 

Are there vets farther away that you could drive her to?


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## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

Give the CMPK it will make her contract also as well as keep her out of hypocalcemia trouble. With the temp dropping act fast.


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## bloogrssgrl (Jan 20, 2008)

mpete, our goats have free range of about 30 acres of brush and pastures, the pastures consisting of a mix of alfalfa, native grasses, birdsfoot trefoil, chickory, and some others I can't recall at the moment. We just started supplementing with an alfalfa mix about two weeks ago, but very minimal. The browse and pasture are still the overwhelming part of the diet. We haven't started them on grain yet. I was keeping an eye on the hay mix, watching out for mold and haven't seen anything yet, so I don't think that was the issue.

I believe she was about 3.5-4 months along in the pregnancy. The aborted kids seemed normal, no glaring malformations.

My concern about stopping the penecillin is that I don't know for sure if she ever passed the afterbirth. If she didn't, and an infection is starting, do I have other alternatives I should be trying?

Is the MSO/CMPK something I can find at Tractor Supply? Please forgive my ignorance on this - I have no idea what it is. The more guidance you can give me, the better.

chamoisee, there is another vet's office about an hour's drive away but, of course, tomorrow is Sunday and they won't be available. I tried calling them once before and they were very reluctant to see my animals. I got the feeling that there seems to be an understood territory among the vets and they hesitate to take on clients that are in an area covered by another vet. Words cannot describe my frustration with the whole vet situation at the moment.

Thanks again for the help, folks.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Will they see her today? Having rotten stuff in there seems to impair to doe's ability to clean out. I would call them frantically, tell them your vet refuses, show up with the goat in the trunk of your car crying if you have to, but she has got to be seen. 

As a last resort you can try to force your way in and clean her out and then wash out her uterus with a douche that will flush the rest of the stuff out, which is essentially what my vet did. I don't know what exactly was in the fluid he washed her out with. 

I had a doe that I did myself (it's probably in the archives somewhere, would have been around 2001 maybe??), and while she did recover (with LA 200 not penicillin) her milk production was down that year and she was never able to birth without a C section after that.


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## bloogrssgrl (Jan 20, 2008)

chamoisee, I would have to research again to even find the vet. It was about a year ago that I called them. Plus, it's already after 6pm where I am so not likely to get anyone at the office at this time anyway. 

I called my local TSC and they have a calcuim goat drench. I asked specifically about cmpk and mso and this was the best they could come up with. Figuring I've got over an hour's drive roundtrip. Heading there now to pick it up. Just took temp at it's at 99.3.:Bawling:

Depending on how things go, I may try to go in again. But if her cerivix isn't dialated, I don't know how much I do as far as flushing it out.

Will check back in...


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

TSC carries both the injectable and the past its for cattle and is about 10 bucks.. give nufor 3cc per 100lbs


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

If nothing else, just use a mild saline solution and a funnel with tubing or a turkey baster to rinse out her uterus. Have her back end elevated when you put the liquid in, and then down for the exit of the solution. Rinse until you see no more smelly nasty stuff. 

I don't think she is hypocalcemic, because rotten smelling stuff in the uterus would account for all her other symptoms.....so my opinion is that the calcium solution is useless for this situation. Can you call Vicki McGaugh?


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Whoever it was posted the Lute & Oxytocin had it correct.

Give the lute, when dialated give the Oxy. The oxy will expel anything in there, and will start to work within 15 minutes or so after giving it, why you need the lute first.

After she's cleaned herself out you should indeed flush her uterus, then give la200 directly into the Uterus, you can inject IM also but in the uterus is where it is needed right now, and before she closes again.

If your doe makes it, she may never be fertile again....

Contact your vet for the lute & Oxy, sooner rather than later....her temp of 100 is not good. Keep her warm.

HF


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

If that place has anything you can mix up to clean her out....like an antibiotic solution or something...get that. 

And if there are barn cats defecating in the hay, make them stop. Toxoplasmosis causes abortions and dead goat kids.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

If you suspect Chlamidia (from barn cats mentioned) it is an abortion disease-one time for each doe but devastating just the same. 
You will need LA200 and lots of it if you want to save the rest of your does from aborting.

HF


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

PLEASE DO NOT STOP THE ANTIBIOTICS! She has an infection which is why it is smelly. I too would switch to LA or to Nuflor but use what you can find. I'm a birth doula and retained placentas are more common then people think. A normal birth shouldn't smell. The calcium isn't going to hurt her but it is not the problem. If you have a heated blanket haul it out and keep her warm. HappyFarmer is right Lute AND Oxytocin if you can get it. Call other goat farms someone has to have it around and may be willing to share it. FLUSH that uterus out as much as possible. Flush as much as possible. You can use womens douches if you don't have saline. You can even use diluted Betadine 50/50 with warm water. It doesn't have to be sterile at this point because she already has a massive infection . If the stuff rotting placenta doesn't come out of there soon you WILL lose her. Not trying to be a B**** but you need to know this is serious.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

HOWEVER, if you don't get the cervix open, you will be rinsing the vagina only. You need expert help. REALLY expert. I wouldn't even attempt it myself.


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## bloogrssgrl (Jan 20, 2008)

Checking in again...

Still low temp, no other changes.

I read all the responses and proceeded as follows:

Gave her the CMPK - 30cc orally. 

Tried to rinse her out with a saline solution but it appears that, as Alice said, I am only getting it into the vagina. The water that is coming out is clear - nothing at all like what she was pushing before. I'm still seeing no signs of change from giving the Lute. I literally have no one to call for oxytocin. The only other person within any reasonable area that has goats is a family memeber and no luck there. The other goat farm that was within an hour drive sold off their herd. If there is anyone else closer, I don't know about them.

Trying to locate a heating pad to take out along with some blankets. Will dose with the Nuflor when I take the blankets out.

Kris, I didn't take your response to be b*****y. I'm not sure why I came across as not thinking this is a serious matter. Believe me, that isn't the case.

Regarding Chlamidia, I can't say for sure. We keep our hay in an enclosed building where the cats cannot get in. But I can't say that that is the case for the farm from where we purchase it. It's entirely possible. Fortunately, I didn't breed other does yet - wanted to wait for milder kidding weather.

Just located the number for the other vet and got a message that the office will be open again on Monday.

I realize things are looking grim at this point but heading back out to see what I can do.

Thanks again for the input.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

You can manually dilate the cervix if you have to...at least, that is what I had to do. Try as hard as you can to get a finger into the os of the cervix and massage it gently but also with mild to moderate pressure to try to stretch the opening. As soon as you can get two fingers into it, get two fingers massaging, etc. If you can't get it to dilate fully, you may still be able to thread some rubber or clean plastic tubing through the cervix and flush her out that way. Even two or three fingers width might be enough.....

Oxytocin- can also be produced by her own body via milking her or letting kids nurse. The nipple/teat stimulation releases oxytocin into the bloodstream. 

I am so sorry you are having to deal with this....but I would not recommend waiting until Monday. Just do what you can because at this point, there is not a lot to lose. :-(


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Forgot....you may need lubrication....if you don't have lube, use olive oil.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

if she aborted yesterday evening and the kids were normal and not rotten, why would she be toxic already? Does It really only takes 12 hours for retained placenta to have gone rotten enough to make her this sick?


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## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

If you have CMPK injectable it is better. Give 30cc on each side of her ribs.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Kids probably hadn't been dead long enough to rot yet....but there is also the very unpleasant possibility that there is a fourth kid in there, decomposing, which made the uterus dump the whole lot of them. Dead rotting kids are typically not easy to birth or to pull. And yeah, it doesn't take very long for dead kids or placenta to start smelling worse than you could ever imagine.


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

HYPOCALCEMIA IN LATE-GESTATION (and lactating) DOES: 
Feeding to Prevent it 
By Sue Reith (1/5/07 update) 

Hypocalcemia is a life-threatening condition that shows up when a doe is either pregnant or lactating, but getting fed an unbalanced diet that doesn&#8217;t provide her with enough calcium for both herself and her growing fetuses or for milk production. It can appear at any time during the last 2 months of pregnancy, right up to the doe's due date, as well as at any time while she&#8217;s lactating. 

Symptoms: The first thing she'll do is refuse to eat her grain. Soon after that she won&#8217;t want her hay either. Without quick intervention she&#8217;ll become weak and wobbly, lethargic and depressed. If still untreated by then, she&#8217;ll lie down and not want to get up. If you take her temperature when you first see these changes, it&#8217;ll be normal (102.3), but soon after that it&#8217;ll drop to sub-normal (below 102). Unless corrective measures are begun right away you&#8217;ll lose both the doe and her fetuses. 
(pasted from Dairygoatinfo)

I suspect that with the mostly browse diet, the does body was just not able to handle the sudden growth of the develping kids so close to term. I really do not think you are dealing with an infection, but honestly I don't think the antibiotics will hurt as long as you are giving probiotics as well.


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## dustin biery (Oct 30, 2010)

Oxy can be obtained from rabbit breeders, cattle ranchers, and most any other type of breeder. I know it may not always be an option, but I know when I was in high school, we always kept oxy available for the rabbits.


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## Manchamom (May 18, 2003)

To clear up a misconception, Clamydia does not come from cats. It is a disease that is trasmitted from doe to kids, sexually, or by nose to nose contact..
Toxoplasmosis comes from cats and is relitively rare in goats.

And yes, CMPK works much better and quicker if injected like it was meant to be. A sub-normal temp means the rumen is not working so most of what you put down her throat, besides burning the skin of her throat, also won't be digested. A goat cannot digest unless it's temp is over 100.5.


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## bloogrssgrl (Jan 20, 2008)

Well, I lost her during the night.

I made one last attempt at going in but could only get my hand inside before she would start thrashing and screaming. She's a big girl and I only have about 15 pounds on her weight-wise so I didn't want it to turn into a wrestling match with my arm inside her. I contemplated trying to tie her somehow but, being that she would go into such severe distress that quickly - and coupled with the fact that her temp just kept going down - I figured it was tantamount to torturing her at for a lost cause.

At that point, I figured I would make her as comfortable as I could for the night. I had her bundled with her blankets and heating pad in a nice nest of straw. Got some more fluid in her and told her she was a good girl. Two hours later, she's gone, still in her same spot as if she had just gone off to sleep.

So now I'm trying to decide if, after working all day today, I am going to be up for making the rather long drive to the diagnostic lab or if I should just let my hubby compost the carcass - he'll be coming home from a 12 hour night shift to this. I might be able to talk him into cutting her open to see what, if anything, was in the uterus - it's all going to depend on how tired he is when he gets home.

And now I have to head off to work.

I want to thank each an every one of you for your help and input. At the very least, I have a good idea of some things to keep on hand. I'm just going to approach my vet that we use for our dogs to see if she will give me prescriptions rather than even bother with the large animal vet. Oddly enough, while searching for the name of the other vet, I came across an article about the dire need for livestock veterinarians in Pennsylvania. Oh the irony.

Thanks again for your help and support.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

I'm so sorry for the loss of your doe. 
A necropsy is always helpful in determining the cause of death, but in your case you know it was miscarriage complications. It would be beneficial to find out why she aborted if possible which was the start of the problem. If you choose to drop her off mention this though it should be obvious to them.

Mancha mom clearly there were 2 abortion diseases mentioned. My parentheses comment was referring to that sentence of toxo, and meant as a continuation of the abortion disease thought process, as another potential reason why she may have miscarried. It was not meant to link the diseases to cats, but rather link the 2 replies to another possible cause as nowhere else is it mentioned the potential cause of the miscarriage. I'm sorry if you or others read it otherwise it was not meant in that way though I can see how it could be interpreted that way.

HF


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## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

I'm so sorry you lost her


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## sleepgrins (May 10, 2008)

Sorry you lost your doe...it would be interesting to know if there was a retained dead fetus due to the smell you described. It sounds like you did everything you could with what you had available.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I'm so sorry for your loss.  Try to take comfort in that she went peacefully, all snugged in, while sleeping. (((hugs)))


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

did not had the time to read the whole thread. sorry for the loss
here is what i would have done in a case like this,
bo-se 1cc per 40 pound of body weight, 3 to five cc fortified b complex injectable, 
2cc lute to open her up again, takes about two days, since she obviously has still something in there, do a uterine flush with oxytetracycline after she opened up. 
low temp can be hypocalcemia or because she is not eating. after birth or lochia should just only smell like, well sounds cross but, menstruation blood. no funky or foul odor. 

now, do you give bo-se prior to breeding??? if nothing else was wrong, seleniuml deficiency can be the reason for abortion. i had this happen once. 
if she has an infection going, 2cc penicillin is way too low. you need at least 1cc per 10 pound body wweight twice a day for at least 10 to 14 days. 

hope that helps in the future?


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

I'm so sorry. You tried so hard.  

I would also encourage a necropsy.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

So So Sorry!!! I know how horrible this feels. BIG HUGGS! If you do decide to open her up take a note pad out and jot down what you see it can help you remember in the future. It is a great learning tool unfortunately the hard way. My thoughts are with you today. You did EVERYTHING you could.


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

Sorry you lost her... **hugs** but I agree that it would be beneficial to the health of your other girls to know why this happened...


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

I am so sorry. :-( I would either do a necroscopy yourself or have her sent to a diagnostic lab, in case whatever caused the miscarriage is something that could infect that other does. I also would read your vet the riot act..... He failed you. Get a different vet that is interested in and knowledgeable about goats and who will be there for you and your does.


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## Suzyq2u (May 17, 2010)

Oh I'm sorry  You worked real hard on her. *hugs*


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## Freya (Dec 3, 2005)

*{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}*


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