# Ugh... Tilling my garden was a huge mistake...



## RedTartan (May 2, 2006)

Learn from my mistakes, fellow gardening newbies. Don't till! 

Here's my sob story:

I decided I wanted a large garden to grow nutritious food for my family. I was familiar with Lasagna Garden/Ruth Stout, but I didn't have enough layering materials to make a garden as large as the one I wanted. I made a small 4' X 12' Lasagna Garden last fall to plant in the spring. This spring I also had a guy till a 20' X 70' rectangle to grow in as well.

My tilled garden area has been a disaster! There are new weeds every day! I hoe and two days later the weeds are back. I couldn't hoe such a large garden everyday so I focused on the end that I was working on planting. Now the other end is so far gone that it looks like lawn again!

What became of my little Lasagna Garden?

I was working so hard on my tilled garden that I never got to planting my Lasagna Garden. It sits there waiting for me. Weed Free! I'm gonna put my pepper seedlings in it when it stops raining. 

I'm turning my tilled garden into a Lasagna Garden as soon as I get the layering materials I'll put them in. My MIL is saving newspaper for me and I've got a full chicken coop waiting.

:Bawling: RedTartan


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## cybercat (Mar 29, 2005)

Get straw on that tilled garden about 4" deep. If you do that right after tilling there is no weeding or very few weeds. Keep it mulch when you plant too it cuts way back on watering.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I thought you might find this useful:
http://www.dacres.org/No-Till Garden.htm


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## Windy in Kansas (Jun 16, 2002)

Well personally I like tilling. I roto-till, water, and let the weeds germinate then repeat until proper planting time. Start with the first tilling in the fall, then early in the spring. Of course this does require one to have their own tiller.

You say that you hoe and a couple of days the weeds are back. Unless you are speaking of newly germinated weeds, i.e. new weeds not weeds that are "back" you aren't properly hoeing. Hoeing should destroy the current weed crop.

Why fight the weeds? Let them grow as a green manure crop and turn them under BEFORE they go to seed. The deeper you spade them in, the deeper you are burying the weed seed which will slow the germination since the seed is so deep. This is the idea behind plowing to a certain point. It also drys the soil so that the lack of moisture also prevents germination.

The size of garden you have indicated should be a readily workable size. 

Since you haven't garden in the tilled area I'd suggest that you start turning it under with a spade or preferably a long handled round nose shovel. Turn each shovelful over to bury the top of the mass as deeply as possibly. A few minutes several times a day will quickly get the entire area done.


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## RedTartan (May 2, 2006)

Cybercat,

I got about half of the garden planted. I'm going to put newspaper and then straw down around the emerging plants. 4" sounds good to me.

Rose,

What an awesome link! Thank you so much. I'm definately going to do that with the half I didn't get planted. I'll add more layers to the planted half in the fall when I "put the garden to bed for the winter."

 RedTartan


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Failure to hoe or otherwise destroy this year's generation of seeds only condemns you to having even more the next year. If not you, then someone else who wants that area for a garden in the future. In the 3 years that I have been in charge of weeds in a 1.6 acre community garden complex, there are now plots which merely require 10 or 15 minutes a week to keep foxtail grass and the usual pigweed, purslane, and lambs quarter at bay. All of my plots are virtually free of grass or weeds and it needs but a half hour per day to keep it that way. Not a chance of even considering any other options than hoeing. Each plot is 18'x25', 450 square feet. I have 11 of them for my many seed saving projects, 4.950 square feet. When hoeing, that seems like nothing compared to what it was on our farm. Our tobacco base in the mid 1950s was 2.2 acres and the only piece of equipment used to cultivate it was the same hoe that I've used on my vegetable gardens for the past 44 years. 

Martin


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## susieM (Apr 23, 2006)

Here's the Balfour method...it goes hand in hand with Ruth and friends.

Fence in the chickens on 1/5 of the garden, and let them do as they please in there. Whenever it gets too messy with all the scraps you throw them and the chicken poop, toss in a bale of straw. After a while, scoot the chickens over to the next 1/5th and plant where the chickens were. Repeat.

The soil where the chickens have been will be perfect for potatoes, and after that beans, and after that...the Balfour method used the four plantings rotation system, therefore the four planting areas and the one of chickens.

One time chicks, one time potatoes, one time beans, one time other, one time cabbage, then back to chickens. Then use Ruth Stout's method in between...and Bob's er Uncle! Perfect ease, perfect plants, no cleaning the chicken coop.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Another way to have a good garden is to lay a tarp down for a year before you plant. The tarp will cook all the weeds/grass/seeds and you'll have a ready made garden spot (provided you have good soil to work with.) A good place to find cheap tarps is to check with a trucking company that pulls flat bed trailers (or put up a flyer at a truck stop). They sometimes have old tarps that they will sell cheap or even give away. I have 3 of them that were made to fit a trailer size 102"x48'. They are great for covering firewood, blanketing a garden area, covering hay, and other uses. There are 2 different types of tarps the truckers use. One is made for covering wood and the other for covering steel. If you can get a tarp made for covering steel, it'll last a lifetime.


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## Mid Tn Mama (May 11, 2002)

You probably have more materials than you think. We have to haul our garbage so all our paper products (paper packaging, paper towels, etc.) go to the garden. I compost in place and have turned terrible clay soil into black workable soil in three seasons. I use the paper packaging like cereal and cream cheese boxes in the rows, newspaper around the plants. Be sure to use crushed eggshells and coffee grounds around your plants to repel slugs.

It's hard to do this in a garden that size. I'd hoe the weeds around the plants (not the rows), then put the paper down or else they will poke through the paper. I'm sure if you start bringing home boxes from work and if your mom starts saving boxes and packaging you will be ok. Be sure to raid the curb of bagged leaves this fall. Cover the paper with grass cuttings, leaves and straw.

PS. I believe every post you make should include a picture of that beautiful house of yours. I enjoy seeing your progress!


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## Rocky Fields (Jan 24, 2007)

Hey.

To help keep down the weeds in your tilled garden:

Get yourself a scuffle hoe. It chops off the weeds and goes alot quicker than hoeing up the ground. Use a weedwacker in more open areas where you won't accidently whack a garden plant. You can get in close with the scuffle hoe without having an accident. Scuffle hoe the weeds when little, every couple of days. Weeds growing close to a plant steal nutrients and water from it. Put down mulch.


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## RedTartan (May 2, 2006)

SusieM,

I thought you couldn't plant in fresh chicken manure. Maybe I'm missing something...

MidTNMama,

I worry about putting printed packaging in the garden (i.e. cereal boxes.) I'm not afraid to use brown cardboard or black and white printed newspaper. That's what I've been saving. Also, I think you may be confusing me with another poster. I'm restoring my 1825 Colonial house, but I can't recall posting pictures of it...

Wind in Her Hair,

This is my very first garden and the first year this land has been tilled. I had no idea how often a first year garden would need tilled/hoed. I have 4 small children that eat up my day. It just got away from me. 

About the newspapers and cardboard in the garden, I think it's better to put it in the garden or compost it seperately somewhere else than sending it to a landfill. If it cuts down on watering and weeding, then I'm so there!


I have a question: Can I put frest from the coop straw around my pumpkin plants? I heard that you can grow pumpkins in fresh manure, but I want to be sure...

 RedTartan


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## Alex (Mar 20, 2003)

From another post

That's right, NOTHING -- NO till, then:

Cut the grass,
Put down 3" or 4" of compost or well-rotted manure,
Put down four layers of newspaper,
Wet them down,
Put on 8" of straw, moldy hay, leaves, etc for mulch,
Dig hole just for the seeds and plants you will plant this year,
Add more mulch as needed,
If up north like we are, start garden a little later, or remove the mulch at the planting area one or two weeks before planting, to let soil warm up,
The soil gets worked up well and there is no disruption to the rich upper layer, worms do a lot of the work, I think, and the newspaper adds to the soil, and helps keep out the weeds -- still a few -- but the newspaper blocks them -- mostly.

That's it, it works, we use drip irrigation with that system, less weeds, and if put drip, or the pump, on a timer, then you don't have to be there to water.









No-till start, weeds cut, manure down, cardboard down. Those black plastic pipes on the fence are our interconnected (with valves at each branch) DRIP IRRIGATION pipes. We put those down later.









Ready and waiting for plants, seeds, and the magic of no-till. Drip pipes still on fence. Our fence is 4' of stock wire at the bottom, and 3' barbed wire, this keeps the deer out. The yellow horizontal thing on the fence is a wind-shield trap rolled up, which we don't use -- thought we needed it.









Our Garden August, those are the flowering potatoes in front and lush peas five feet tall to the left, they went to seven feet and gave peas for months. That's Hops starting to over-run the gate, a month later it was all over the place.

We have lots of worms as mentioned, and the knotted-old hay field is loose and rich looking soil. 

Good Luck with NO Till,

Alex

P.S. We ONLY put shavings on the Blueberries, and things that like acid soil. We don't use it on our garden, it would stunt our plants: guess that's based on your own soil's needs.


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## DianeWV (Feb 1, 2007)

Everybody has to do what is best for their situation. I guess I must be kinda stuck in the old way-how I was taught. I till. I like to till the earth. Don't know if it is best or not, but that's what I do. The plants seem to like it. Yes, I get weeds, lots of them, but till what I can, pull what I can, hoe, and really don't get too shook about it. Yes, gardening can be very hard work, but its good to sit back in your garden, drink a glass or several of wine and enjoy. Have fun with it!! Take Care


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

DianeWV said:


> Everybody has to do what is best for their situation.


That's exactly the answer. I was thinking that this afternoon when I spent 10 minutes doing a walk through the corn patch with hoe in hand. 550 kernels planted in 900 square feet. To even think of pre-mulching the area with 6" of straw or hay would be preposterous. Since I'd have to buy either of those, it would probably be cheaper to just buy the corn already in cans or frozen! I'd have to part 400 linear feet of rows in order to clear soil to plant in. Grass and weeds would both be competing with the germinating corn for the same amount of exposed area and I'd still have to get rid of them one way or another. Since crawling on my hands and knees are not an option, that would be a bit difficult chore if a hoe wasn't allowed. If planted first, and waited until the corn was high enough so that 6" of mulch could be safely placed around the plants, the foxtail grass and velvet weed would be taller than the corn. So, "one size" definitely does not fit all in gardening.

Martin


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## vicki in NW OH (May 10, 2002)

My gardens (3) are way too large to mulch all of it. I mulch the potatoes and tomatoes, and hoe the rest. I also have many volunteer flowers that come up among the vegetables and wouldn't want the mulch to prevent that. They help draw beneficial insects. Besides, I like to hoe.


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## OneAcreCircus (Mar 13, 2007)

Paquebot said:


> there are now plots which merely require 10 or 15 minutes a week to keep foxtail grass and the usual pigweed, purslane, and lambs quarter at bay.


I like to hoe, too. But I don't mind the purslane or lamb's quarters- I let em grow here and there (especially the purslane is nice ground cover) and they are delicious!


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## Alex (Mar 20, 2003)

The method I described is most useful for creating first time gardens (smaller)from hay fields, grass areas, or bush areas. 

Alex


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

I'm with One Acre Circus...I even go so far as to leave a single plant of my favorite weeds to go to seed so as to ensure a crop next year..I harvest bushels of greens for me and my family as well as my poultry before what I plant is ready to harvest..as the planted crops need more space the weeds are pulled and used as mulch for the crops and other areas are mulched. I noticed today japanese beetles munching on the lamb's quarters and leaving my beans alone..can you say "trapcrop"? Deep rooted weeds,such as red root pigweed(amaranth) are edible and bring up nutrients from deeper than most folks till, which when the plant is composted become available for later crops. Hey Martin! Those Brown Dutch are growing well and in flower now..doing better(sad to say) than my Fortex pole beans..seems my area this year is not kind to beans...


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

We till. Couple of times in the spring with a decent interval to let the weeds show and work them under.
Then I run the hoe a couple of times early in the season.
We spend some time weeding in the rows as well.
I knock the dirt off the roots and lay the weeds in the walkways so they become mulch or get turned in if we till.
And if your rows are spaced right once the plants get good sized, weeds are usually kept down by lack of sun.
We have one area this year where we used the black breathable ground cover. The weeds don't grow through it much (some grasses will) and it warms the ground for the plants. Tomatoes have really enjoyed it. 
I would never use a tarp. Seems to me that the soil would suffer from no water or sun and lots of heat. The good bugs probably wouldn't like it either. Course that's my opinion.
Using mulch once the plants are going good is a good idea if you are tilling your soil before planting and have the resources to do it. The wife is constantly hauling stuff from the animal pens out there.
So much stuff that I will probably have to plow this fall because it will be too thick for the tiller to work.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

sammyd said:


> We have one area this year where we used the black breathable ground cover. The weeds don't grow through it much (some grasses will) and it warms the ground for the plants. Tomatoes have really enjoyed it. .


Don't try using that stuff to "smother" existing plants. I've seen several use that over weeds and grasses that are up maybe an inch or so. Isn't long before they are long black balloons from the stuff growing under it! Several hundred feet away, another gardener uses the same identical stuff with no problems. However, she hoes off everything before laying it down. Then it's just dark enough under there to not allow most seeds to germinate.

Martin


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Chicken manure is hot, you can't put it where you are planting. But, you can wait for it to break down, then put it in your garden. Sheep manure is cool, and you can put it where ever and when ever you want. If you are cleaning out the chicken coop, and you've been layering the floor with straw, then you should be able to put that on your garden, as most of the manure will have broken down with the straw, but I'd still wait a few days. In the spring, we move our little chicken coop, put fresh straw down, and put the winter straw in the garden or the compost. By the time the soil is warm enough to plant anything, the chicken coop straw is well on its way to joining the soil.


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## OneAcreCircus (Mar 13, 2007)

Paquebot said:


> Don't try using that stuff to "smother" existing plants. I've seen several use that over weeds and grasses that are up maybe an inch or so. Isn't long before they are long black balloons from the stuff growing under it! Several hundred feet away, another gardener uses the same identical stuff with no problems. However, she hoes off everything before laying it down. Then it's just dark enough under there to not allow most seeds to germinate.
> 
> Martin


I totally agree- This spring I turned over the top layer of grass (about 1 spade deep) then covered it all with plastic until I double dug it a few weeks later. Plot is about 5x40. I've been very happy so far. I, too, was a little concerned about cooking the dirt too much, but I figured that at least I was doing the dirt favor by hand-tilling. My SO and I disagree about shovel vs. tiller but as long as I'm the one doing it, I guess I get my way!

PS So far weeds are under control with a few hoeings.


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## RedTartan (May 2, 2006)

Okay, update time.

I cleaned out the coop yesterday. I use a deep bedding method and stir it about once a week. The straw had been in there for about 4 months.

I love the pictures you posted, Alex! They were really inspiring. 

I started by putting newspaper layers around my pumpkin hills, wetting it, and putting about 3 inches of chicken poo straw on top of that and wetting it again. I got to do 5 hills and the spaces between them. It looks great!

I also opened a bale of $2.00 fall hay in the chicken yard so they can dig through it for a few days eliminating seeds. I'll use it to mulch around other vegetables midweek.

Today I'm raking up the goat yard. That's about one more bale of straw with a bumper crop of goat berries. Hopefully I'll get 5 more pumpkin hills done. I planted 15 hills of pumpkin altogether.

I'm going to try to take some pictures while I'm working at it today and post my progress.

Long live Ruth,

 RedTartan


Next time I'm in town I'll stop at Border's bookstore and raid their cardboard only dumpster to begin preparing the other half of the garden for next year. This year I think I'll train my pumpkin vines to grown over the mulched area so the garden doesn't look too empty.


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## Hears The Water (Aug 2, 2002)

Paquebot said:


> So, "one size" definitely does not fit all in gardening.
> 
> Martin



I agree. And too, I like to work in the dirt. I did check out from our library the Lasagna Gardening book so I could see for myself what the draw is. It looks great, but I have a big problem with it. There are several layers made up of items that I would have to buy from a store. We are always short on cash. I own a tiller... it was one of the last things that John bought for me before he died, so for me all I have to pay for is the gas. Now all this being said, I am in a first year spot this year too and I am fighting the crabgrass and plantain. It is a daily struggle. And it seems that the sun comes out and the rain quits about the time we can't get out there to work, so the weeds take over. Red Tartan, I feel your pain. But, I am already planning what I will do for next years garden, to make the soil all nice and as weed free as possible! I am learning so much from coming here! 
God bless you and yours
Deb


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Ever use a stirrup hoe? Its my preferred way to weed now, especially when the weeds are small and just coming up on newly tilled soil. Using this hoe is much like painting with a roller, just a few swipes and it neatly cuts the root. Now if that doesnt kill the weed, it certainly slows it down!
I like to till in the spring, then give the weeds a few days to germinate. After that, I'l attach an old bedspring to a chain and drag it over the plot with the ATV, killing lots of the little weedlings. Then work it with the stirrup hoe, then cover. Always cover. This keeps new weeds from sprouting, keeps in moisture, and keeps the soil from baking in the sun and turning into a moonscape.
When its time to plant, I just rake back the mulch and set transplants or seeds, then cover everything back up.


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