# Hands up don't shoot...



## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeremy-...rist-had-hands-up-as-marshals-killed-his-boy/
http://theadvocate.com/news/13927384-123/funeral-services-today-in-mississippi
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...-shoot-autistic-la-boy-cops-article-1.2429869

I'll give you the gist. Down in Avoyelles Parrish two officers shot a man after what they claim was a pursuit. No warrants have turned up. Video is now showing that the man, Chris Few, had his hands up when the two officers supposedly shot a "fleeing vehicle." Few's 6 year old son Jeremy Mardis was shot and killed, Few is in improved condition but has not been told that his son is dead. Now we're finding out that the two dirt bag officers have had previous problems with the community, including arresting a guy for trying to carry his dying dog through a crowd. Worse. They're also finding out that one of them, Greenhouse, had been swinging by Few's house where he lives with his fiance'. Greenhouse was messaging Few's fiance' on facebook. Few's fiance' told Few about it, Few threatened Greenhouse, warning him to stay away from his house.

So basically this was murder. How could these two officers be officers? Why would they expect to get away with this kind of thing even with body cameras? Well.... Somebody's daddy is the head of major crimes.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Whole town seems to be a massive mess. They are officers because the evil is systemic there sadly.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

It is nice to see that no one here jumped to conclusions about who was in the wrong or right and instead we waited for more information. A refreshing change.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

wiscto said:


> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeremy-...rist-had-hands-up-as-marshals-killed-his-boy/
> http://theadvocate.com/news/13927384-123/funeral-services-today-in-mississippi
> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...-shoot-autistic-la-boy-cops-article-1.2429869
> 
> ...


obviously, why bother with investigating further or holding a trial.... Anybody got a rope?


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

That poor kid. What is wrong with people????

Here is another case I can't wait to see more investigation done and what they conclude:
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2015/11/deputies_responding_to_idaho_b.html

Not a peep about it on the national news that I have seen.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

MO_cows said:


> That poor kid. What is wrong with people????
> 
> Here is another case I can't wait to see more investigation done and what they conclude:
> http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2015/11/deputies_responding_to_idaho_b.html
> ...


There is bound to be more to this story, I would also be interested in hearing why two deputies would open fire on a non threatening rancher they had called to the scene of an accident. :shrug:


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> obviously, why bother with investigating further or holding a trial.... Anybody got a rope?


Yea because that's what I was saying....  

Their body cameras were on and the judge set bail well out of their reach. The footage has revealed something inconsistent with their reports. If they had no cause to fire on the car, and a 6 year old boy died, that's homicide. Negligent homicide perhaps.... But it's still homicide. I stated my opinion based on current facts known and gave y'all the articles. Now I know y'all like lynching and stuff down there. But don't assume that because I stated an opinion that I would support it. Obviously I would like it to be fully investigated, complete with a fair trial. Take a pill and a deep breath.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

wiscto said:


> Yea because that's what I was saying....
> 
> Their body cameras were on and the judge set bail well out of their reach. The footage has revealed something inconsistent with their reports. *If *they had no cause to fire on the car, and a 6 year old boy died, that's homicide. Negligent homicide perhaps.... But it's still homicide. I stated my opinion based on current facts known and gave y'all the articles. Now I know y'all like lynching and stuff down there. But don't assume that because I stated an opinion that I would support it. Obviously I would like it to be fully investigated, complete with a fair trial. Take a pill and a deep breath.


I bolded the most important, albeit small, word in your post. You stated "some" of the facts, there are bound to be more as the investigation proceeds.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Why is it that so many just Jump into the conclusion that the police are ALWAYS wrong when it comes to a shooting? SO many cop haters around it is sooooo Sickening~!!!


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I bolded the most important, albeit small, word in your post. *You stated "some" of the facts, there are bound to be more as the investigation proceeds.*


That's awesome. By your own logic, you can't possibly know that. For all you know, the facts are in and reported. It's also possible that they're not. But the bolded part in your post is the important part, because apparently you can't even follow your own rules, even though you feel the need to roll your eyes at people when they don't...supposedly. Guess you should have thought that one through.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

painterswife said:


> It is nice to see that no one here jumped to conclusions about who was in the wrong or right and instead we waited for more information. A refreshing change.


 

Looks like the facts may have came out first.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

po boy said:


> Looks like the facts may have came out first.


They came out in the last day or so. What came out first seems to be untrue. No warrant etc.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

painterswife said:


> They came out in the last day or so. What came out first seems to be untrue. No warrant etc.


Yup. The State Police Chief said there was no warrant, no gun. He also said that the body camera footage was "The most disturbing thing I have ever seen."

So there ya go, ArabianKnight. That dang police hating State Police Chief.

So AK and YH.... Which of you read all the articles before you jumped to conclusions about my conclusions?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I agree. These are cops in name only, not deeds. If the latest info is true they should never have been on the job. Hired gangsters is more like it.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

arabian knight said:


> Why is it that so many just Jump into the conclusion that the police are ALWAYS wrong when it comes to a shooting? SO many cop haters around it is sooooo Sickening~!!!


I live in a moderate city and it is scary when you have to interact with the Sheriffs here. It's almost like they set you up to fail. They look like they are armed to the teeth, most of the ones I've seen in action are almost chomping at the bit to get a rise out of anyone they come across. When they set up an area and stop someone it is like 4 SUVs all surround the person and it's on then. It is a sorry thing, I have no real reason to fear the cops, I have to rely on them to get my job done but it is so ramped up that it is sincerely scary seeing what happens to others and then you have to hope that you get a good cop if they think that you stepped out of line...


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

wiscto said:


> Yup. The State Police Chief said there was no warrant, no gun. He also said that the body camera footage was "The most disturbing thing I have ever seen."
> 
> So there ya go, ArabianKnight. That dang police hating State Police Chief.
> 
> So AK and YH.... Which of you read all the articles before you jumped to conclusions about my conclusions?


I read the articles prior to making my post to you. It was obvious to me that "the facts" presented were one sided and based on the words of the victims attorney. Not a peep from the accused side.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Shine said:


> I live in a moderate city and it is scary when you have to interact with the Sheriffs here. *It's almost like they set you up to fail. *They look like they are armed to the teeth, most of the ones I've seen in action are almost chomping at the bit to get a rise out of anyone they come across. When they set up an area and stop someone it is like 4 SUVs all surround the person and it's on then. It is a sorry thing, I have no real reason to fear the cops, I have to rely on them to get my job done but it is so ramped up that it is sincerely scary seeing what happens to others and then you have to hope that you get a good cop if they think that you stepped out of line...


I have to agree with you on being set up to fail.... I was stopped one time and was asked to "walk a straight line", that rascal knew there were two double yellow lines! Then there was that whole touch your nose with my eyes closed and reciting the alphabet backwards thing.... Who is he kidding?.... I couldn't do that stone cold sober!!


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

painterswife said:


> It is nice to see that no one here jumped to conclusions about who was in the wrong or right and instead we waited for more information. A refreshing change.


Check again


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

arabian knight said:


> Why is it that so many just Jump into the conclusion that the police are ALWAYS wrong when it comes to a shooting? SO many cop haters around it is sooooo Sickening~!!!


What if they were "liberal" cops?


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I read the articles prior to making my post to you.* It was obvious to me that "the facts" presented were one sided and based on the words of the victims attorney*. Not a peep from the accused side.


:indif: Looks like you haven't even read the posts you're responding to.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

MO_cows said:


> That poor kid. What is wrong with people????
> 
> Here is another case I can't wait to see more investigation done and what they conclude:
> http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2015/11/deputies_responding_to_idaho_b.html
> ...


That's crazy. I hope the family gets some justice. His poor wife.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to defend cops who are obviously out of control.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Patchouli said:


> Never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to defend cops who are obviously out of control.


And the people who hate cops so bad they automatically side against them, no matter what always amaze the rest of us.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Never had to explain myself to the cops I'm related to, the ones I saw regularly when I used to work in a related field, or the ones I just know. I don't side against them every time no matter what. _You're just jumping to conclusions without all the facts._ I will, however, "side against them" when they're clearly overstepping their boundaries. It's just kind of sad that you guys continue to beat on that worn out old drum....no matter what happened during the incident or what facts are known.

Keep beating that tired old drum though... It's easier than reading and finding out that the other side might be right.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

wiscto said:


> :indif: Looks like you haven't even read the posts you're responding to.


Of course I read the posts I respond to, as well as the articles linked. What I have not read at this point is anything from the accused point of view.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

wiscto said:


> Never had to explain myself to the cops I'm related to, the ones I saw regularly when I used to work in a related field, or the ones I just know. I don't side against them every time no matter what. _You're just jumping to conclusions without all the facts._ I will, however, "side against them" when they're clearly overstepping their boundaries. It's just kind of sad that you guys continue to beat on that worn out old drum....no matter what happened during the incident or what facts are known.
> 
> Keep beating that tired old drum though... It's easier than reading and finding out that the other side *might *be right.


first it was "If" and now the word "might" comes into play, almost like a clever back door in case your more adamant accusations of guilty as charged are later shot down upon an actual investigation or acquittal comes to pass.... Can we hear a maybe now?

What "facts" are currently known? A shooting occurred, one man injured and a minor riding with him was killed. Beyond those facts we have heard speculation based upon hearsay from the victims attorney.. Me? I would like to have a bit more info before tossing a noose over a limb. Oh and it was reported that the adult victim had threatened one of the officers with bodily harm at some point prior to the shooting incident. Dunno if there is any truth to that or not either.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

There was the initial story. Warrant etc. Put out by the cops supposedly trying to make an arrest. The one people were saying meant the father must have done something to get shot at.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> There was the initial story. Warrant etc. Put out by the cops supposedly trying to make an arrest. The one people were saying meant the father must have done something to get shot at.


I have not seen that story, perhaps I missed a link to it. :shrug:


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I have not seen that story, perhaps I missed a link to it. :shrug:


It's right there in the first link provided by the OP. Not too hard to find.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> It's right there in the first link provided by the OP. Not too hard to find.


Ok, I went back and reread all three articles, could not find any source that did not come from the accusers or the victims attorney. This leads me to beleive that thus far we are only getting one side of the story. Hence my hesitation to fetch up a rope to hang anyone just yet.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, I went back and reread all three articles, could not find any source that did not come from the accusers or the victims attorney. This leads me to beleive that thus far we are only getting one side of the story. Hence my hesitation to fetch up a rope to hang anyone just yet.


I guess some of us are more up on the story and have been following it from tne beginning or bothered to investigate more sources before making assumptions.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> I guess some of us are more up on the story and have been following it from tne beginning or bothered to investigate more sources before making assumptions.


That is entirely possible as I have only this thread and its links to go on. So far, there has not been any evidence presented here to enable me to make any decisions one way or the other. That's why I am not about to holler guilty just yet. If others have more info I am all ears.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> That is entirely possible as I have only this thread and its links to go on. So far, there has not been any evidence presented here to enable me to make any decisions one way or the other. That's why I am not about to holler guilty just yet. If others have more info I am all ears.


Your posts sure seemed to judge others fior not having enough info when iit was you who are the one making assumptions about how others are jumping to conclusions.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Your posts sure seemed to judge others fior not having enough info when iit was you who are the one making assumptions about how others are jumping to conclusions.


Oddly enough I see it somewhat differently. Someone started this thread with three separate links and stated very plainly that this was a case of murder. I saw no evidence in those links that could justify a conviction, pointed that out to the op and since no further links have been provided with further info my scepticism still stands. If anyone is jumping to conclusions based on the evidence thus far provided in this thread I think it would be those who have convicted the two cops in their own minds.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, I went back and reread all three articles, could not find any source that did not come from the accusers or the victims attorney. This leads me to beleive that thus far we are only getting one side of the story. Hence my hesitation to fetch up a rope to hang anyone just yet.


I saw the officer's story in 2 out of the 3 links in the OP and have been following this story since it happened. Here's more of the "original" report on it from 6 days ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/06/us/louisiana-police-shooting-marksville.html?_r=0

*It started as a police car chase in a town in central Louisiana. By the time the pursuit ended, on a dark dead-end street, a 6-year-old boy had been fatally shot in the front seat of a sport utility vehicle.


The Louisiana State Police said Thursday that they were starting an investigation into the death of the boy, Jeremy Mardis, a first grader, in Marksville on Tuesday night. In the last minutes of the boy&#8217;s life, he was with his father, Chris Few, who was at the wheel of his S.U.V., apparently trying to elude city marshals who wanted to arrest him.

Dr. Mayeux said he examined what appeared to be multiple bullet holes in the vehicle.

He said he spoke to some of the troopers, who told him that a warrant was out for Mr. Few&#8217;s arrest and that he appeared to have been trying to back into the officers&#8217; vehicles after reaching the end of the street.

The coroner said the boy was struck several times in the head and chest. *


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

wiscto said:


> Yea because that's what I was saying....
> 
> Their body cameras were on and the judge set bail well out of their reach. The footage has revealed something inconsistent with their reports. If they had no cause to fire on the car, and a 6 year old boy died, that's homicide. Negligent homicide perhaps.... But it's still homicide. I stated my opinion based on current facts known and gave y'all the articles. Now I know y'all like lynching and stuff down there. But don't assume that because I stated an opinion that I would support it. Obviously I would like it to be fully investigated, complete with a fair trial. Take a pill and a deep breath.





Yvonne's hubby said:


> obviously, why bother with investigating further or holding a trial.... Anybody got a rope?




Honestly fellas, if only half of this story turns out to be true, and any of the relatives are half as ******* as I am, there *won't* be any trial.

I wish I could say I never heard of such a thing before but I have, more than once. In small towns where past lives are intertwined over decades, LOTS of things happen well outside the law.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

painterswife said:


> There was the initial story. Warrant etc. Put out by the cops supposedly trying to make an arrest. The one people were saying meant the father must have done something to get shot at.


Wasn't the 1st story that the guy w/son were backing up towards the cops in a threatening manner? Til cameras disproved that.
So sad. & horrendous.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

I'm just going to throw this out there, had it been Joe blow that was placed under arrest and charged, by no other then the State Police.
I'm not sure about other States but I have never met a unprofessional State Trooper.
They are the pentacle of LE here. 
Well Seems to me many that want to give the benefit of the doubt to these guys would be on the other side of the fence?
I have to give a lot of weight to the Fact that they where arrested and charged.

LE like congress likes to exempt themselfs from the laws.
Good Cop or Bad Cop.
Just another form of entitlement.

The law is for everyone.
I personally think those entrusted with enforcing the law should be held to a 
higher standard and stiffer penalty then the public.
After all if Ignorance of the law is no excuse, those who know better well...


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

MO_cows said:


> That poor kid. What is wrong with people????
> 
> Here is another case I can't wait to see more investigation done and what they conclude:
> http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2015/11/deputies_responding_to_idaho_b.html
> ...



That one made news up here and I'd like to hear the findings of the investigation.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> first it was "If" and now the word "might" comes into play, almost like a clever back door in case your more adamant accusations of guilty as charged are later shot down upon an actual investigation or acquittal comes to pass.... Can we hear a maybe now?
> 
> What "facts" are currently known? A shooting occurred, one man injured and a minor riding with him was killed. Beyond those facts we have heard speculation based upon hearsay from the victims attorney.. Me? I would like to have a bit more info before tossing a noose over a limb. Oh and it was reported that the adult victim had threatened one of the officers with bodily harm at some point prior to the shooting incident. Dunno if there is any truth to that or not either.


You must be running out of straws to grasp at. First of all, I was talking about your general attitude, so it's kind of amusing to read you analyzing my use of the word "might." I wouldn't jump to conclusions. I still think this was a murder. Actually, it was an attempted murder of Few, and a successful murder of his son. Based on the facts of the case that have been presented. 

I think it's kind of disappointing that you are unable to recognize that the State Police Chief was *directly quoted.* I'm thinking *maybe* you're letting your need to oppose get in the way of reality.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

wiscto said:


> You must be running out of straws to grasp at. First of all, I was talking about your general attitude, so it's kind of amusing to read you analyzing my use of the word "might." I wouldn't jump to conclusions. I still think this was a murder. Actually, it was an attempted murder of Few, and a successful murder of his son. Based on the facts of the case that have been presented.
> 
> I think it's kind of disappointing that you are unable to recognize that the State Police Chief was *directly quoted.* I'm thinking *maybe* you're letting your need to oppose get in the way of reality.


I am aware that the police chief was directly quoted. I am also aware of the quote. He found the video "deeply disturbing". That could cover a lot of scenarios leading to the death of a small child. You may very well be correct in your assessment of the limited information that has been released thus far but I am not about to convict anyone on the scant info available at this point.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

For some reason, I always take the opposite side on such issues. To me people just latch on to the simplest answer and go with it. Plus, after a series of split second decisions and the luxury of seeing how those choices played out, it is wonderful to armchair quarterback a week later.

In a former job, I dealt with thousands of criminals. I was a front line supervisor for nearly 20 years and before that an officer, AKA Guard. We make decisions based on what we think is happening and what we think will happen. Sometimes it is an under-reaction and we get hurt or get someone else hurt. Sometimes it is an over reaction and in hindsight it looks like an over use of authority. Never clear at the time, but reviewing the video the next day, after we know how it turned out, we can see where mistakes were made or things could have been done differently. But even if the world were like the movie Groundhog Day, where the star could repeat the day over and over improving or changing, not knowing the reactions of others places Guards and Cops into the position of always failing, if perfection is your goal.

Just saw a video of a guy arrested, hand cuffed, kicked out window of cop car and ran towards a big glass door, like he was trying to smash through. Cops tazered him, all three. Looked like too much use of force. But what if only one tazered him and it missed and the guy was injured on the glass of the doors? People would criticize, " Those other Cops should get their thumbs out of their backside and do their jobs." 
The guy kicked out another window of another cop car, even after leg irons were on. Cops took the guy to jail. He was unresponsive, ambulance took him to hospital, he died Cocaine overdose. Cops fault?
After every critical incident, there is the question, "How could this accident have been prevented?" Some will say, " Only one Cop should have tazered him" Some will say, " Cops should have taken this wild man to the hospital, he might be on drugs." Others will say, "Cops should have backed off and let him relax." But, I'm going to say, " When you ingest illegal drugs that put you out of your mind, resist arrest, kick out two car windows, attempt to smash glass doors, those entrusted in keeping the peace may pluck you from the civil community and your drug overdose becomes collateral damage."


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I am aware that the police chief was directly quoted. I am also aware of the quote. He found the video "deeply disturbing". That could cover a lot of scenarios leading to the death of a small child. You may very well be correct in your assessment of the limited information that has been released thus far but I am not about to convict anyone on the scant info available at this point.


Yea that isn't the only thing they got from him. So now you're aware that the attorney wasn't the only source, hah? Wow. :thumb:


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> When you ingest illegal drugs that put you out of your mind, resist arrest, kick out two car windows, *attempt to smash glass doors*, those entrusted in keeping the peace may pluck you from the civil community and your drug overdose becomes collateral damage."


Those glass doors were at the hospital.
That's where they were taking him before he kicked out the car window.
They then decided to take him to jail


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

wiscto said:


> Yea that isn't the only thing they got from him. So now you're aware that the attorney wasn't the only source, hah? Wow. :thumb:


I never indicated that the victims attorney was the only source, I said the only sources at this time are those doing the accusing, including said attorney. The articles also mention that the contents of the video has not been released, and very little else about this case has been made available pending the investigation that is in progress.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> first it was "If" and now the word "might" comes into play, almost like a clever back door in case your more adamant accusations of guilty as charged are later shot down upon an actual investigation or acquittal comes to pass.... Can we hear a maybe now?
> 
> What "facts" are currently known? A shooting occurred, one man injured and a minor riding with him was killed. Beyond those facts we have heard speculation based upon hearsay from the victims attorney.. Me? I would like to have a bit more info before tossing a noose over a limb. Oh and it was reported that the adult victim had threatened one of the officers with bodily harm at some point prior to the shooting incident. Dunno if there is any truth to that or not either.


The Police Chief reviewed the body cam footage and arrested them both for murder and said it was the most horrific thing he had ever seen. Why do you keep leaving that part out? It's in all of the articles.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I read the articles prior to making my post to you.* It was obvious to me that "the facts" presented were one sided and based on the words of the victims attorney.* Not a peep from the accused side.





Yvonne's hubby said:


> I never indicated that the victims attorney was the only source, I said the only sources at this time are those doing the accusing, including said attorney. The articles also mention that the contents of the video has not been released, and very little else about this case has been made available pending the investigation that is in progress.


And now you don't remember what you said.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

haypoint said:


> For some reason, I always take the opposite side on such issues. To me people just latch on to the simplest answer and go with it. Plus, after a series of split second decisions and the luxury of seeing how those choices played out, it is wonderful to armchair quarterback a week later.
> 
> In a former job, I dealt with thousands of criminals. I was a front line supervisor for nearly 20 years and before that an officer, ACA Guard. We make decisions based on what we think is happening and what we think will happen. Sometimes it is an under-reaction and we get hurt or get someone else hurt. Sometimes it is an over reaction and in hindsight it looks like an over use of authority. Never clear at the time, but reviewing the video the next day, after we know how it turned out, we can see where mistakes were made or things could have been done differently. But even if the world were like the movie Groundhog Day, where the star could repeat the day over and over improving or changing, not knowing the reactions of others places Guards and Cops into the position of always failing, if perfection is your goal.
> 
> ...


All true, I'm sure, but irrelevant to this case.
The guy had a cop who was sweet on his fiancee', and used his gun and badge to try and murder him.
In the crosfire, he murdered an innocent child.
It'll take some folks a lot longer to figure this out, but like I said, in a case like this, there wouldn't be any trial if that was my little boy. 




wiscto said:


> And now you don't remember what you said.


 
Give him a break.
Seeing how he's volunteered to be a mod, has questionable judgement and all..........he's obviously got some sort of brain damage as well.
Geesh.


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## scooter (Mar 31, 2008)

Cop Had Been Stalking Man&#8217;s FiancÃ©e Before Murdering His 6-year old Son

Until now, there was still no logical reason for the stop, leaving everyone wondering why these officers went after Few at all. However, all that changed when Few&#8217;s fiancÃ©e came forward about her relationship to one of the murdering cops, Norris Greenhouse, Jr. 
According to the Advocate, Megan Dixon, Few&#8217;s fiancÃ©e, said this weekend that Few had a previous run-in with Greenhouse. A former high school classmate of Dixon, Greenhouse had started messaging her on Facebook and had come by the house Few and Dixon were sharing at the time. &#8220;I told Chris, and Chris confronted him about it and told him, &#8216;Next time you come to my house I&#8217;m going to hurt you,&#8217; &#8221; Dixon said.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

||Downhome|| said:


> I'm just going to throw this out there, had it been Joe blow that was placed under arrest and charged, by no other then the State Police.
> I'm not sure about other States but I have never met a unprofessional State Trooper.
> They are the pentacle of LE here...



We have a state trooper who writes tickets in this town quite often. He is assigned to hundred miles away but he uses visiting his family as a time to write tickets. 
This doesn't surprise us much sense after he was dismissed from this town for unprofessional bias he got a job in the next county over and it would come spend his working time sitting on the county line looking for tickets he could write in this county. 
After he was dismissed from that county for doing that he managed to get a job in the troopers. 

I certainly don't think he has any more of a professional as a trooper then he was as hometown Barney.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> We have a state trooper who writes tickets in this town quite often. He is assigned to hundred miles away but he uses visiting his family as a time to write tickets.
> This doesn't surprise us much sense after he was dismissed from this town for unprofessional bias he got a job in the next county over and it would come spend his working time sitting on the county line looking for tickets he could write in this county.
> After he was dismissed from that county for doing that he managed to get a job in the troopers.
> 
> I certainly don't think he has any more of a professional as a trooper then he was as hometown Barney.


Like I said, don't know about other states, if your here in Michigan let me know I'll bend some ones ear. 
Perhaps the commandeer needs it brought to attention?
or the Governor.
Not saying its not possible, just I never met one.
All Our troopers I met are gold!
now when it comes to local guys... 50/50!
Maybe a bit more one way then the other in some places...JS

We have this crazy thing on the books that Private Police have the color of Law! can you say Pinkerton? ya not cool!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Sorry down home but stuff like that's pretty normal here. 
Remember our governors retirement program is run by the dept of corrections , so they can make our license plates !


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> Give him a break.
> Seeing how he's volunteered to be a mod, has questionable judgement and all..........he's obviously got some sort of brain damage as well.
> Geesh.


three outta three! Yer getting good at this stuff.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

what do you think on this? 

http://www.whdh.com/story/30447562/the-latest-official-says-disgraced-cop-tried-to-set-up-hit


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> Sorry down home but stuff like that's pretty normal here.
> Remember our governors retirement program is run by the dept of corrections , so they can make our license plates !


so you are in Michigan?


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

I have been abused by lower authority never the state police,


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Sorry down home but stuff like that's pretty normal here.
> Remember our governors retirement program is run by the dept of corrections , so they can make our license plates !


Sorry for the thread drift, but I didn't understand your comment. As far as I know, no government official ever won reelection by spending more taxpayer's money on prisons. Quite the opposite. In fact, since over half of the felonies and the corresponding half of the prisoners come from the Detroit area, most Michiganders would gladly give Detroit to Ohio just to be rid of the cost of incarceration. I've heard of people that somehow equate prisons, prisoners and prison labor as some sort of boon to the state, but never able to figure it out.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

||Downhome|| said:


> what do you think on this?
> 
> http://www.whdh.com/story/30447562/the-latest-official-says-disgraced-cop-tried-to-set-up-hit


This one looks a lot like the OP, a bit premature to make any decision. Again, allegations without verification of many facts.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I forgot not everyone knows I'm from Illinois. 
The department of corrections seems to run our governor's retirement program because they all wind up in prison. 
At least while the governors are in prison they can do some good by making us some license plates !


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> The Police Chief reviewed the body cam footage and arrested them both for murder and said it was the most horrific thing he had ever seen. Why do you keep leaving that part out? It's in all of the articles.


Can you describe any scenario that leaves a small boy dead that wouldn't be "horrific"?


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

This guy could not put his hands up. I believe that someone else made a comment about this one. Tasered 20 times - at some point three officers had tasers into him and tasing him all at the same time. - Oh... yeah, forgot to say that the review of the death stated that the use of force was justified, even though he was tasered for not sitting up straight in the patrol car.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDwxkKObDAg[/ame]

I don't know but having people out there that would do something like this scares me.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Shine said:


> This guy could not put his hands up. I believe that someone else made a comment about this one. Tasered 20 times - at some point three officers had tasers into him and tasing him all at the same time. - Oh... yeah, forgot to say that the review of the death stated that the use of force was justified, even though he was tasered for not sitting up straight in the patrol car.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDwxkKObDAg
> 
> I don't know but having people out there that would do something like this scares me.


"Driving that train... High on cocaine... Casey Jones you better..."

Those words keep bouncing through my mind while watching the vid. What other possible outcome could there have been? The man OD'd and was obviously out of control, yes, at the point he busted out the car window and went running wildly into the ER doors he was a clearly out of control danger to others. He was not "tazed to death"... He ODd on cocaine... Like Casey this was a train wreck bound to happen. Would you have preferred the officers shoot the man?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

MO_cows said:


> That poor kid. What is wrong with people????
> 
> Here is another case I can't wait to see more investigation done and what they conclude:
> http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2015/11/deputies_responding_to_idaho_b.html
> ...


It's been out on the internet for awhile.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> "Driving that train... High on cocaine... Casey Jones you better..."
> 
> Those words keep bouncing through my mind while watching the vid. What other possible outcome could there have been? The man OD'd and was obviously out of control, yes, at the point he busted out the car window and went running wildly into the ER doors he was a clearly out of control danger to others. He was not "tazed to death"... He ODd on cocaine... Like Casey this was a train wreck bound to happen. Would you have preferred the officers shoot the man?


So, you advocate tasing and retasing shackled subjects for, oh, lets say, something like not sitting up straight in their seat? Yes he was on cocaine, yes he was at the doors to the emergency room trying to get in, no, they did not get him checked out which was the original intent. They killed this man.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Shine said:


> This guy could not put his hands up. I believe that someone else made a comment about this one. Tasered 20 times - at some point three officers had tasers into him and tasing him all at the same time. - Oh... yeah, forgot to say that the review of the death stated that the use of force was justified, even though he was tasered for not sitting up straight in the patrol car.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDwxkKObDAg
> 
> I don't know but having people out there that would do something like this scares me.


Yea I've seen that one. They handled it fine until he went into paranoid-panic mode, it was a good idea to keep talking to him and trying to reassure him...but sometimes it's harder for cops to drop that intimidating authority voice. Maybe that triggered the guy, but probably not, he looked like he was guaranteed to flip out. The cop even pretended to turn off the camera, lol. I don't think they were particularly malicious, but it seems like they had zero training for that specific situation. Tazing a guy in that condition is, well....bad.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Shine said:


> So, you advocate tasing and retasing shackled subjects for, oh, lets say, something like not sitting up straight in their seat? Yes he was on cocaine, yes he was at the doors to the emergency room trying to get in, no, they did not get him checked out which was the original intent. They killed this man.


According to the report the man died due an overdose of cocaine. Did the cops force him to snort or swallow that much coke? I doubt it. Did they have to taze him as much as they did? From what I saw in the video he left them little choice. I spose they could have shot him, but they opted to taze instead. He was so far "out there" it was about the only way to get him to respond.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Shine said:


> So, you advocate tasing and retasing shackled subjects for, oh, lets say, something like not sitting up straight in their seat? Yes he was on cocaine, yes he was at the doors to the emergency room trying to get in, no, they did not get him checked out which was the original intent. *They killed this man*.


That's not what the Coroner said


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Wel IF they did kill him and THAT is a BIG IF they just saved the state lots of money. LOL


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

And that's more important to you than rights and a mans life ?


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

arabian knight said:


> Wel IF they did kill him and THAT is a BIG IF they just saved the state lots of money. LOL


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Media is the real issue. They will twist anything and everything to make their people feel what they want. Media does not need to be on the streets with police and they don't need to be in combat either. America doesn't need to see and know all. Next part about saving the state money, how about people on death row for 30 years? Costing 20k annually. Hang em and reuse the rope to save even more! Deport the turf heads that are not citizens in our prisons wasting even more money. Deport them and the death row trash right off an aircraft carrier in the middle of the pacific for all I care, that's where they belong. If your a threat to society(high as hell on Coke and clearly gone and not responding but clearly out of control) it's time for you to go! Taser.....maybe,3, not no way not no how, if it takes more than one give a bullet or 2.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Media is the real issue. They will twist anything and everything to make their people feel what they want. Media does not need to be on the streets with police and they don't need to be in combat either. America doesn't need to see and know all. Next part about saving the state money, how about people on death row for 30 years? Costing 20k annually. Hang em and reuse the rope to save even more! Deport the turf heads that are not citizens in our prisons wasting even more money. Deport them and the death row trash right off an aircraft carrier in the middle of the pacific for all I care, that's where they belong. If your a threat to society(high as hell on Coke and clearly gone and not responding but clearly out of control) it's time for you to go! Taser.....maybe,3, not no way not no how, if it takes more than one give a bullet or 2.


Yea see... This is where we're going to part ways. The media absolutely belongs in the streets, because you can't trust all of the police anymore than you can trust all of the government. And a dude on coke running around handcuffed and bouncing off doors is hardly a threat... If you don't want to waste the time, that's fine, don't be a cop. Other people are a little better cut out for that.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

arabian knight said:


> Wel IF they did kill him and THAT is a BIG IF they just saved the state lots of money. LOL


Really whats wrong with you? 

sick and wrong. 

life is life.

their actions did add to his death, perhaps not a direct cause. 

I fail to see the humor.

Give it time.

You or someone you love will be subjected to this machine.

Just watched a show on the heroine epidemic in Massachusetts.

Perpetuated by Doctors prescribing Opiate pain killers...

how do you feel about those folks?

I say hang the Doctors!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Shine said:


> This guy could not put his hands up. I believe that someone else made a comment about this one. Tasered 20 times - at some point three officers had tasers into him and tasing him all at the same time. - Oh... yeah, forgot to say that the review of the death stated that the use of force was justified, even though he was tasered for not sitting up straight in the patrol car.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDwxkKObDAg
> 
> I don't know but having people out there that would do something like this scares me.


You do realize what just happened prior to that video? The guy, while in cuffs, kicked out the patrol car, escaped police custody and ran away.

You do realize that a tazer is considered non-lethal force? You do know that a tazer is a very short range tool and not very accurate? You do know that highly agitated or highly excited people often are not debilitated by a tazer?

You are against the use of a tazer in this case? We can judge the police action by how we now know it turned out. Would you be critical if they had not used the tazers, but gang tackled and wrestled him to the ground? But wouldn't his death by overdose be blamed on the officers physical confrontation? Would you be critical if they had stood by and let him continue to slam into the glass doors? Even if he were badly cut on either the glass or the metal frames? There were people inside the building, if the Cops had let him break in and assault someone, would you want the tazers used then? how about shooting the guy to protect the victim of a likely assault?

You think they tazered him in the patrol car because he wouldn't sit up? Wrong. He had just kicked out the window of the second patrol car.

In my experience working with convicted felons, the hospital won't accept a person that is out of control like that. They don't want to put their staff or other patients at risk. So what should the Cops do? Drive around, hope he doesn't kick out a third window, while he calms down?

Ever hear, " Stop or I'll shot!"? That is the authority we give Cops to insure a civilized society is protected. Ever hear of a note on a packet of cocaine that says, " Go ahead and overdose, then contact the Cops, they will put your psychotic behavior above all else so you will be safe."? Nope, me either.

You run, Cops chase, ends badly. Is that simple enough?


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

OxyContin pills found in their parents' medicine cabinets - or stolen from pharmacies.
the doctors fault my Aunt Fanny.
NOBODY has forced these young folks to FIND a NEW HIGH called Heroin either. Thats the Doctors fault also? Did the doctors hold these people down and FORCE them to FIND A NEW HIGH CALLED Heroin?
Once again just a anti big Farma and doctor rant and nothing more then that.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

haypoint said:


> You do realize what just happened prior to that video? The guy, while in cuffs, kicked out the patrol car, escaped police custody and ran away.
> 
> You do realize that a tazer is considered non-lethal force? You do know that a tazer is a very short range tool and not very accurate? You do know that highly agitated or highly excited people often are not debilitated by a tazer?
> 
> ...


 Correct you go against that and you now have a death wish. You are playing with your own life and it most likely is going to turn in your favor cause your death wish is a coming true.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

||Downhome|| said:


> Really whats wrong with you?
> 
> sick and wrong.
> 
> ...



Sounds like a complete displacement of responsibility. 
People abuse the prescription pain killers and switch to the far cheaper heroine. Most people that are prescribed pain killers, don't turn to cocaine or heroine. So, people should suffer pain so those predisposed to drug abuse won't get started?

When a person is highly agitated, kicking out windows, slamming into glass doors, totally out of control, the hand cuffs or tazer didn't kill him. The drugs did. Not the Cops fault, not the doctors fault, not my fault. Your fault. When the attitude leans away from Cops controlling crime and towards leaving drug addled felons running loose, you promote more crime.

We know what happened. We have no idea how it might have turned out. What if Cops stood by and he ran into traffic? What if he'd gotten into that building and hurt someone? 

You may be able to create a list of things that killed the guy. The official, real reason is cocaine overdose. Contributing factors could be a lack of employment, insufficient education, refusal to attend drug rehabilitation classes, insufficient parenting, broken home, attention deficit. But resisting arrest is not the Cops fault.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

wiscto said:


> Yea see... This is where we're going to part ways. The media absolutely belongs in the streets, because you can't trust all of the police anymore than you can trust all of the government. And a dude on coke running around handcuffed and bouncing off doors is hardly a threat... If you don't want to waste the time, that's fine, don't be a cop. Other people are a little better cut out for that.


Not a threat? Cops must wait until he hurts himself or slams into others until they should act? Cops get criticized for getting to a crime after it happens and now you want to criticize them for stopping a violent, out of control guy. They already waited while the guy kicked out the patrol car window and escaped custody. Should they wait for him to smash out those glass doors? Who's paying for the two patrol cars' windows? Who is paying for damage done to the building's doors? Who's responsible if he had gotten into the building and knocked someone down? 

The problem with media is that most people don't know the law and never see the part that leads up to the police action, making it all out of context. Being able to see what the Cops did and how it turned out and then dissect each action over weeks, puts critics at an advantage over Cops split second actions. Life isn't Groundhogday, where you get to relive the day over and over and choose a different method each time until you get it right.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

arabian knight said:


> NOBODY has forced these young folks to FIND a NEW HIGH called Heroin either. Thats the Doctors fault also? Did the doctors hold these people down and FORCE them to FIND A NEW HIGH CALLED Heroin?
> Once again just a anti big Farma and doctor rant and nothing more then that.



YES THEY HAVE!
What's the matter AK ? Don't you want to take responceability for the damage you and your ilk have caused. ?
At one point alcohol and marijuana and similar natural substances were totally legal. 
But people like you think that such things should be outlawed. I suppose because you don't like them. 
However people want to get high a fact recognized and protected in the constitution remember that entire pursuit of happiness thing ?
So each time one thing is outlawed people find a new thing to replace it but it tends to be harsher than the things replaced. 
If people and the government would just keep their nose out of things that don't concern them we wouldn't be in this position today.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

It is a difficult concept to accept, that what we see isn't always what is happening. We only see bits of the action shaded by our expectations of the event.

I wish I could find the video to the Canadian prison for women video. There had been a riot in the women's prison. Many Guards injured. The following night, prisioners were threatening, throwing urine, claiming to have weapons. Additional staff were not available. Warden ordered staff to take each prisoner, strip search, place in a clean cell, go cell to cell, checking for weapons and then moving the prisoners into that cell. In the prison business we would call this a "Clean sweep". Not uncommon.

But about a dozen of the prisoners refused to come out, get strip searched and go to another cell. Moving a prisoner, safely, requires extra staff. You just don't send in a lone officer to wrestle with a prisoner. Situations like this often lead to injuries to staff or prisoners. Great care must be taken to keep everyone safe. Men's prison next door. Warden called for Riot Squat to come over and help move these women. They showed up in padded vests, padded pants, padded arm sleeves and helmets. 

At this point, to be totally transparent, video cameras were started. The women were, for the forth or fifth time, ordered out of their cells. Most refused and lay still in their beds. As is in line with training, staff entered and the prisoners clothes were cut off while the Riot Squad held the prisoner down. The prisoners were given cloth, disposable gown and escorted to another cell. Right on down the line, about a dozen times. Textbook perfect.

But the prisoners taunts and thrown urine was not filmed. The majority of prisoners complying and moving to cells was not filmed. The repeated orders to exit their cell were not filmed. Only the actions of the Riot Squad entering the cells and the clothes cut off was filmed.

Those that had no idea what they were seeing, thought male guards shouldn't have been brought in to help. Helping unplug the cutting tool was equated to undressing a woman. 

The whole thing was seen as evil guards and abused prisoners. By the time it was over, the Warden was fired and the prison closed. But there was no wrong doing. Everyone acted as trained and doing the dirty business no one wants to do.

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/womens-prison-riot/

Where did we ever get the idea that a 20 second video clip is all we need to make an educated judgment on anything?

I think I could produce two videos that represent what happened before the cameras came on, one that shows the Cops as the bad guys and another showing the idiot kicking out the patrol car's window and his escape. Folks just need to realize they don't have enough information to judge.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

And legalizing marijuana is one reason there will NEVER be a libertarian in the WH. That isn't the main reason their state on protecting this country with a strong military force and how we fight wars is a strong one against them as well.
NEVER~! That way out of the world radical thinking is why Ron Paul never made it to the WH. At least Rand Paul knows better then to get into THAT argument of politics.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> YES THEY HAVE!
> What's the matter AK ? Don't you want to take responceability for the damage you and your ilk have caused. ?
> At one point alcohol and marijuana and similar natural substances were totally legal.
> But people like you think that such things should be outlawed. I suppose because you don't like them.
> ...


 Alcohol is legal. You ready to shoulder the blame for the 88,000 alcohol related deaths this year? IMHO, society isn't to blame for people that drive drunk. I favor individual responsibility and poor choices have consequences. Always has, always will. Do you believe that if cocaine and heroin were legal, there is no problem? I think the Cops were reacting to the guy's actions, not his substance abuse. Stop blaming others. Too much of that already.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> It is a difficult concept to accept, that what we see isn't always what is happening. We only see bits of the action shaded by our expectations of the event.
> 
> I wish I could find the video to the Canadian prison for women video. There had been a riot in the women's prison. Many Guards injured. The following night, prisioners were threatening, throwing urine, claiming to have weapons. Additional staff were not available. Warden ordered staff to take each prisoner, strip search, place in a clean cell, go cell to cell, checking for weapons and then moving the prisoners into that cell. In the prison business we would call this a "Clean sweep". Not uncommon.
> 
> ...



Wow I find it ironic that you think that your discription of events somehow shows regards in the warden were justified in what they did. 

You have made exactly the opposite point you hoped to that short video showed what was the key point. 

Both it and your description justify the dismissal of both the warden entire administration and all the guards involved. 

Apparently you are so pro government abuse that you can't see that.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Wow I find it ironic that you think that your discription of events somehow shows regards in the warden were justified in what they did.
> 
> You have made exactly the opposite point you hoped to that short video showed what was the key point.
> 
> ...


Has nothing to do with government per say. Just difficult jobs doing things that can't always be done with unicorns and rainbows. Insuring the safety inside a prison includes stripping the clothes off those unwilling to comply. I've personally strapped prisoners to a bed and left them there for hours. Not as punishment, but to protect themselves and others. 

I see the video and understand what is being done and why. I read the description of what was done and approve. But, as you so strongly pointed out, if you don't understand what is happening, you reach different conclusions. This is exactly my point about video clips seen by the unknowing


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

This matter makes me wonder very seriously, if ther are any WHITE PEOPLE in that little cesspool of a town.:shrug:


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Go quote from The Constitution where it says Speech can NOT BE INFRINGED? 

Apples and Oranges 

But it sure as heck DOES when it comes to having a firearm~!!!!!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Has nothing to do with government per say. Just difficult jobs doing things that can't always be done with unicorns and rainbows. Insuring the safety inside a prison includes stripping the clothes off those unwilling to comply. I've personally strapped prisoners to a bed and left them there for hours. Not as punishment, but to protect themselves and others.
> 
> I see the video and understand what is being done and why. I read the description of what was done and approve. But, as you so strongly pointed out, if you don't understand what is happening, you reach different conclusions. This is exactly my point about video clips seen by the unknowing




You see it and understand it from a guards point. 

But guess what , the servants shouldn't make the rules. The government shouldn't decide how too govern. 

I understand that some things are inconvenient but the people are not here to serve the government.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

arabian knight said:


> OxyContin pills found in their parents' medicine cabinets - or stolen from pharmacies.
> the doctors fault my Aunt Fanny.
> NOBODY has forced these young folks to FIND a NEW HIGH called Heroin either. Thats the Doctors fault also? Did the doctors hold these people down and FORCE them to FIND A NEW HIGH CALLED Heroin?
> Once again just a anti big Farma and doctor rant and nothing more then that.


You obviously are oblivious to the issue.
You think its just kids?
You think its just the inner City?

Its all age groups, and yes the opiates medications helped it to spread like fire.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

arabian knight said:


> Go quote from The Constitution where it says Speech can NOT BE INFRINGED?
> 
> Apples and Oranges
> 
> But it sure as heck DOES when it comes to having a firearm~!!!!!


The word used isn't infringed in this case, it's abridged, which means the same thing.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abridge



Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> You see it and understand it from a guards point.
> 
> But guess what , the servants shouldn't make the rules. The government shouldn't decide how too govern.
> 
> I understand that some things are inconvenient but the people are not here to serve the government.


I guess I need you to focus your anger. such a broad stroke at everything government is impossible to respond to. 

Cops and Guards don't make the rules. But often they do the job the public wants done, but doesn't care to hear about.

I think most citizens support, "Stop or I'll Shoot" authority for Cops. since equal rights put women guards in men's prisons and male guards in women's prisons, having a suited up male Riot Squad assist in an emergency in a woman's prison. 

Once you have taken sides against the government and government employees, including Cops and Guards, you have stacked the deck against them and emboldened criminals. Civilization suffers and we lose freedoms afforded only to a lawful society.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

So much hatred so much horrid distrust It IS hard to make a comment on such posts. No reasoning, no rational thoughts at all just all bad all can go to heck as far as some ar concerned I guess. 
The USA is a Nation OF LAWS. Don't like well the boarder is not closed YET. LOL


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

haypoint said:


> I guess I need you to focus your anger. such a broad stroke at everything government is impossible to respond to.
> 
> Cops and Guards don't make the rules. But often they do the job the public wants done, but doesn't care to hear about.
> 
> ...



That's true, but you have to remember one thing about "broad strokes".
A lot of criminals have jobs, and it stands to reason that some of those are in gov't/law enforcement.
We can't automatically assume that because they have a uniform on, they are going to obey the law either, then of course you have the "Blue Line" to deal with if they are.....


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

arabian knight said:


> Correct you go against that and you now have a death wish. You are playing with your own life and it most likely is going to turn in your favor cause your death wish is a coming true.


Yea... Having a coked up panic attacked while handcuffed and running away because you're paranoid. Real death wish there. 



arabian knight said:


> And legalizing marijuana is one reason there will NEVER be a libertarian in the WH. That isn't the main reason their state on protecting this country with a strong military force and how we fight wars is a strong one against them as well.
> NEVER~! That way out of the world radical thinking is why Ron Paul never made it to the WH. At least Rand Paul knows better then to get into THAT argument of politics.


Yea we're not going to need a Libertarian to get that done. It's going to happen. If I were you I'd start coping with that fact now, or you're going to lose a lot of sleep.



arabian knight said:


> So much hatred so much horrid distrust It IS hard to make a comment on such posts. No reasoning, no rational thoughts at all just all bad all can go to heck as far as some ar concerned I guess.
> The USA is a Nation OF LAWS. Don't like well the boarder is not closed YET. LOL


You're the most hateful person here. By far. I'm serious, it isn't even close. Your attitude is probably more dangerous to every single principle of this country than the average cokehead, and it's by far more dangerous than the average pothead. The real irony is that you think you're all red white and blue and patriotic. You sound more like Private Hugh White to me. Say hi to Boston.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

arabian knight said:


> So much hatred so much horrid distrust It IS hard to make a comment on such posts. *No reasoning, no rational thoughts* at all just all bad all can go to heck as far as some ar concerned I guess.
> The USA is a Nation OF LAWS. Don't like well the boarder is not closed YET. LOL


I agree with that part


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> I guess I need you to focus your anger. such a broad stroke at everything government is impossible to respond to.
> 
> Cops and Guards don't make the rules. But often they do the job the public wants done, but doesn't care to hear about.
> 
> ...



No anger here. Dismay and concern but not anger. 

Your second paragraph is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. 
In fact when I read this to friends who are both cops and guards they laughed and questioned if you had ever been in a jail or patrol car. 

Other than a few ultra liberals no one seems to support stop or I'll shoot authority for cops. Except in the case of a perpetrator with weapons drawn in a threatening advance on a officer or citizen. 

Perhaps I'm wrong but a prisoner in a locked cell laying on a bunk does not seem to pose the kind of immediate threat that would require males to strip and search her. 

Your last paragraph reveals your paranoia and us versus them mindset of current law-enforcement.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

edcopp said:


> This matter makes me wonder very seriously, if ther are any WHITE PEOPLE in that little cesspool of a town.:shrug:


The answer?
Oh yeah.

Y'all read this link, especially the ones that are still in denial of how bad things happen in a town where some of the cops and judges are part of the criminal community. It gives a little more background on how this little boy got murdered.
It'll blow your mind.
Having grown up in one, I didn't bat an eye.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/in...&#8217;s-police-killing/ar-BBn215W?li=AAa0dzB


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> The answer?
> Oh yeah.
> 
> Y'all read this link, especially the ones that are still in denial of how bad things happen in a town where some of the cops and judges are part of the criminal community. It gives a little more background on how this little boy got murdered.
> ...


Thanks for the link.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Perhaps I'm wrong but a prisoner in a locked cell laying on a bunk does not seem to pose the kind of immediate threat that would require males to strip and search her.
> 
> Your last paragraph reveals your paranoia and us versus them mindset of current law-enforcement.


The situation I was talking about was a prison population that had weapons hidden. The Clean Sweep requires everyone to be strip searched and placed in a "clean" cell. Then that cell is searched for weapons. Then on to the next prisoner and the next cell. 
Apparently, you would choose to bypass the passive resistance felons? You let them lay on their shank? My point was that the prison didn't film the threats made by the inmates. Didn't film the majority of prisoners complying with the order and quietly moved to other cells. They failed to film the repeated orders spanning hours that they refused. All you got to see was some suited up Riot Squad men from next door helping the female guards restrain and move these resisting inmates. If the guards had gone in there one on one, their would have been assaults on staff. But with the helmeted squad, resistance was futile and it all want smoothly. Until the bleeding hearts got a viewing.

For civilization to work you need a population that respects authority. Sometimes you can get that by having a scary God that sees all and will punish swiftly. Sometimes you need a punishment so sure that it dissuades one from committing the crime. Great care must be taken when placing people in positions of authority. Judges and Cops come to mind. If you have vetted and hired and trained good people, why would you assume they are the evil doers and liars, while those breaking the law are believed above all others?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Hay point throw your shovel
Away you can't see you are digging yourself in deeper. 
You just keep showing us there wasn't any urgency. 

The warden being fired and prison CLOSED should tell you and all involved it wasn't acceptable and all who participated should be ashamed.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

haypoint said:


> The situation I was talking about was a prison population that had weapons hidden. The Clean Sweep requires everyone to be strip searched and placed in a "clean" cell. Then that cell is searched for weapons. Then on to the next prisoner and the next cell.
> Apparently, you would choose to bypass the passive resistance felons? You let them lay on their shank? My point was that the prison didn't film the threats made by the inmates. Didn't film the majority of prisoners complying with the order and quietly moved to other cells. They failed to film the repeated orders spanning hours that they refused. All you got to see was some suited up Riot Squad men from next door helping the female guards restrain and move these resisting inmates. If the guards had gone in there one on one, their would have been assaults on staff. But with the helmeted squad, resistance was futile and it all want smoothly. Until the bleeding hearts got a viewing.
> 
> For civilization to work you need a population that respects authority. Sometimes you can get that by having a scary God that sees all and will punish swiftly. Sometimes you need a punishment so sure that it dissuades one from committing the crime. Great care must be taken when placing people in positions of authority. Judges and Cops come to mind. If you have vetted and hired and trained good people, why would you assume they are the evil doers and liars, while those breaking the law are believed above all others?


 And it is those same bleeding hearts that is ruining this once great country. They are so passive it stinks.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

arabian knight said:


> And it is those same bleeding hearts that is ruining this once great country. They are so passive it stinks.



No it's the people willing to infringe someone's rights in the name of order. 

HEIL comrade ?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

haypoint said:


> Has nothing to do with government per say. Just difficult jobs doing things that can't always be done with unicorns and rainbows. Insuring the safety inside a prison includes stripping the clothes off those unwilling to comply. I've personally strapped prisoners to a bed and left them there for hours. Not as punishment, but to protect themselves and others.
> 
> I see the video and understand what is being done and why. I read the description of what was done and approve. But, as you so strongly pointed out, if you don't understand what is happening, you reach different conclusions. This is exactly my point about video clips seen by the unknowing


My question would be why the female guards weren't properly trained and equipped to handle this? If male guards in riot gear could use overwhelming force to ensure compliance why couldn't the female guards been given the same gear and training? To me, if they weren't, the administration wasn't doing their job and deserved dismissal.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Ah yes and some have nothing got say but a Smart Aleck remark, which it comes from those with a simple mind, and nothin more.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

arabian knight said:


> Ah yes and some have nothing got say but a Smart Aleck remark, which it comes from those with a simple mind, and nothin more.


I have lots got say. Which it comes from my smart brain.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

*The original link wouldn't let me copy/paste. It will now, so I thought I'd post some of it.*

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...247ffa-8967-11e5-be39-0034bb576eee_story.html
For years, people in the tiny Louisiana town of Marksville watched the feud between their mayor and local judge like some kind of daytime soap opera, with varying degrees of frustration and amusement.

Then came the Nov. 3 shooting that killed a 6-year-old boy. Suddenly, the petty small-town bickering began looking more tragically sinister.

Why in the world, residents ask, were deputy marshals &#8212; whose main job is serving court papers for the judge &#8212; out there chasing cars and shooting up suspects? How did one of the deputies &#8212; who had been charged twice for aggravated rape and racked up a string of lawsuits accusing him of using excessive force &#8212; even get hired? And how did a speck of a town like Marksville wind up with a shadow police force on its streets?

&#8220;It&#8217;s pretty clear to me that if this feud didn&#8217;t exist, those marshals wouldn&#8217;t have been there that day,&#8221; said one former city official and resident of more than three decades who spoke on the condition of anonymity, citing a gag order in the case.

&#8220;We&#8217;ve watched the both of them fight for years. .&#8201;.&#8201;. But I don&#8217;t think anyone imagined something so petty would lead to something so tragic.&#8221;

Marksville Deputy Marshal Derrick Stafford. (Louisiana State Police/Associated Press)



Since then, information about the case and Marksville more generally has slowed to a trickle, with folks in town refusing to talk openly about almost anything. In private interviews, however, many blamed the long-running feud for Jeremy&#8217;s death. It may not have directly caused the shooting, they say, but it created the bizarre circumstances that made it possible.


According to several current and former city officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of violating the gag order, Marksville&#8217;s marshal began issuing traffic tickets to generate money for the city court. The court&#8217;s funding has been the focus of a furious battle between the mayor and City Judge Angelo Piazza III since last year.

&#8220;No one really took it seriously, until recently. It was like watching two bullies fighting,&#8221; said one resident who has known both men for decades.


Lemoine put a microscope on City Court,&#8221; Piazza told the local paper, the Avoyelles Journal, last year. Piazza said the scrutiny added new costs and bureaucracy, even as Marksville police started issuing fewer tickets, dramatically reducing his court&#8217;s income.

Then this summer, Lemoine sharply cut the court&#8217;s budget &#8212; including the judge&#8217;s salary. Piazza filed suit. Piazza declined to comment for this story. Lemoine and Voinche did not return repeated calls for comment.

The feud polarized the town&#8217;s law enforcement community. &#8220;You have officers siding with the judge and marshal, and others with the mayor,&#8221; said one longtime elected official.

At one point, the mayor was arrested after an argument with police. One of the arresting officers was Stafford, and afterward the mayor tried to get a civil service oversight board to investigate him.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> My question would be why the female guards weren't properly trained and equipped to handle this? If male guards in riot gear could use overwhelming force to ensure compliance why couldn't the female guards been given the same gear and training? To me, if they weren't, the administration wasn't doing their job and deserved dismissal.


The total staffing levels are small to begin with. There had been an actual riot in the women's prison the night before. Many female guards were injured during that incident. The Warden had no one else to call in. It takes a lot of staff to simultaneously strip search the entire population and do a quality search of a cell and its contents. She needed help. There is a men's prison next door. When you have time, it is safer to get staff in protective helmets, gloves and pads. I am going to make a sweeping assumption, the guys were also stronger than the female guards. Besides, it only involved a very few that were non-compliant.

I see that it is a big deal to you. From my perspective, it wasn't. Just guards acting professionally, making the prison safer for the prisoners and everyone that worked there. I see nothing sexual or humiliating. So what of someone saw your saggy self put on a paper gown?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

FarmerBrown
Most people on this site that always say well if the cops treated you bad why didn't you report them really need to read your link.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

A few years ago, there was a TV series called, "The Shield" About some big city vice squad cleaning up crime on the streets. The leader, Vic, kept the crime rate down, but often crossed the line in getting it done. City fathers and community supported the results and turned a blind eye to how it was done. You'll know in the first show if you like it.

The writers wanted Vic to be the bad guy, a rouge cop. But those that watched mostly saw Vic as the hero, excusing the bad behavior. Eventually, the writers created Vic as an ever more evil guy. But it was interesting because those trying to bring Vic down were evil in their own way, too. I'd recommend it to those with an interest in this "All Cops are good/all cops are evil" debate.

"falling Down" is a movie, with Michael Douglas. Man at the end of his patients, walks to his ex-wife's house to see daughter on her birthday. Along the way he meets bad people and he rises to the occasion and acts out. At first you nod or cheer as he puts people in their place. But at some point, you start thinking he has crossed the line. Then as you reflect, you set the point back a few places in the movie. Easy to get caught up in the, "About time someone gets what they deserve" attitude.

My point is that we draw that line in the sand in different places. I want to use as much information as is available, but beyond that, I'm going to lean towards believing the Cop and lean away from believing the felon.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I'm going to lean towards believing the Cop and lean away from believing the felon.


Yeah, I don't put much faith in felons as a general rule


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

haypoint said:


> The total staffing levels are small to begin with. There had been an actual riot in the women's prison the night before. Many female guards were injured during that incident. The Warden had no one else to call in. It takes a lot of staff to simultaneously strip search the entire population and do a quality search of a cell and its contents. She needed help. There is a men's prison next door. When you have time, it is safer to get staff in protective helmets, gloves and pads. I am going to make a sweeping assumption, the guys were also stronger than the female guards. Besides, it only involved a very few that were non-compliant.
> 
> I see that it is a big deal to you. From my perspective, it wasn't. Just guards acting professionally, making the prison safer for the prisoners and everyone that worked there. I see nothing sexual or humiliating. So what of someone saw your saggy self put on a paper gown?


Thanks for the answers in the first paragraph. It does help explain things. It doesn't really matter that much to me but it still seems that if you had enough personnel to do the searches in the other instances there probably should have been enough personnel to handle the small number of recalcitrant prisoners. If the female guards aren't strong enough to handle the small number of individuals involved it brings further doubt as to their training and preparation. All of which falls to management.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> Thanks for the answers in the first paragraph. It does help explain things. It doesn't really matter that much to me but it still seems that if you had enough personnel to do the searches in the other instances there probably should have been enough personnel to handle the small number of recalcitrant prisoners. If the female guards aren't strong enough to handle the small number of individuals involved it brings further doubt as to their training and preparation. All of which falls to management.


Or it could be just another day in prison, nothing to get shook up about. The job was accomplished and no one was injured or escaped. But if you spent weeks studying it all and imagine a dozen other ways you could have done it, weighed each idea, calculated other possible outcomes, analyzed the memories and emotions of the felons involved, sought out a sexual angle. Did a poll as to what the public might interoperate, got a half dozen psychologists to analyze it, then you might see a different scenario.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Haypoint what was the grounds for dismissing the warden and closing the prision?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Yeah, I don't put much faith in felons as a general rule



I find that interesting since most people in the USA could have been convicted of a felony. 

Take a look at FarmerBrowns link for a look at how law enforcement in this nation really works.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> I find that interesting since most people in the USA could have been convicted of a felony.
> 
> Take a look at FarmerBrowns link for a look at how law enforcement in this nation really works.


OK, I "get" your view of Cops. Just like every Postal Worker is about to shoot their fellow workers. Every government worker has a Monica, every white teenager is plotting a mass murder and every prison guard is Percy Wetmore. 
That we all are felons, just luck, skin color, bank account or education separates us from prisoners is quite a belief system. I thought I got away from that when I left the prison system.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> The answer?
> Oh yeah.
> 
> Y'all read this link, especially the ones that are still in denial of how bad things happen in a town where some of the cops and judges are part of the criminal community. It gives a little more background on how this little boy got murdered.
> ...



Excellent article. Anyone still defending these cops has to be working overtime to ignore the facts in this case.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> I find that interesting since most people in the USA could have been convicted of a felony.
> 
> Take a look at FarmerBrowns link for a look at how law enforcement in this nation really works.


Many of them aren't trustworthy either

That link is old news that really only applies to those individuals.
I have lots of good friends who are LEO's and they are nothing at all like that.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Many of them aren't trustworthy either
> 
> That link is old news that really only applies to those individuals.
> I have lots of good friends who are LEO's and they are nothing at all like that.


Yeah, I know a lot of LEOs that are nothing like that. You still have to ask yourselves... How many people can we allow to be killed/harmed/incarcerated by LEOs that do not operate as those that we know operate? How long will we [collectively] turn a blind eye to the problem that our police forces are being militarized/augmented and have, in many cases, been exonerated in situations that that exoneration seems to be a reach at best?

Does it need to happen to your family before you react or do you think that we [collectively] should step in and speak up about the number of egregious failures of both the individual cops and then those that turn the blind eye to allow them to escape that justice that they deserve?

Yes, I know good LEOs, I've seen other LEOs that routinely stretch the envelope to a large degree... 

Just like everything in this country, it is up to us to decide as long as we move as one...

Remember, it is you and I that pay the law suits when those that fail the test of pure justice are brought to accord...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> Excellent article. Anyone still defending these cops has to be working overtime to ignore the facts in this case.


I missed the part where anyone has defended *these* cops


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Remember, it is you and I that pay the *law suits* when those that fail the test of pure justice are brought to accord...


There haven't been any here that I am aware of, so I haven't paid a penny.

I'm not going to agonize over the actions of a few when the vast majority do as the should, no matter how much some like to imply they are all "evil".

These will be tried and punished if found guilty of any crimes


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

haypoint said:


> Or it could be just another day in prison, nothing to get shook up about. The job was accomplished and no one was injured or escaped. But if you spent weeks studying it all and imagine a dozen other ways you could have done it, weighed each idea, calculated other possible outcomes, analyzed the memories and emotions of the felons involved, sought out a sexual angle. Did a poll as to what the public might interoperate, got a half dozen psychologists to analyze it, then you might see a different scenario.


Thanks for not answering my questions about staffing and training, again. It's just another day in prison is an easy excuse, not really an answer. I do a lot of work with process improvement. Companies waste a lot of money doing things just because that's the way they've always done it and that it's just another day in the plant. Companies save a lot of money when they analyze those processes and what people are doing and how they are trained and make improvements. I've not watched your video. I've read your description. I don't have an emotional attachment to the prisoners. They're there for a reason and should follow the orders of the guards for the smooth operation of the prison and the safety of guards and prisoners. Having to call in guards from next door to handle the small number of prisoners you keep saying were involved looks to me like a failure in staffing, training and access to equipment. Male guards could have restrained the prisoners while female guards did the disrobings, searches and redressing. See, another solution presents itself. Your unwillingness to see any problem or any alternatives in cases like this is why cases like this will continue to happen and things won't change.

Most cops are good cops. Some are great. Some shouldn't have a badge. If we excuse the bad acts or even the mistakes of any of them without acknowledging and correcting the mistakes and punishing the blatant wrong doing we end up right where we're at today. With a small number of police officers thinking their badge gives them power and immunity.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Shine said:


> Yeah, I know a lot of LEOs that are nothing like that. You still have to ask yourselves... How many people can we allow to be killed/harmed/incarcerated by LEOs that do not operate as those that we know operate? How long will we [collectively] turn a blind eye to the problem that our police forces are being militarized/augmented and have, in many cases, been exonerated in situations that that exoneration seems to be a reach at best?
> 
> Does it need to happen to your family before you react or do you think that we [collectively] should step in and speak up about the number of egregious failures of both the individual cops and then those that turn the blind eye to allow them to escape that justice that they deserve?
> 
> ...


I'm not worried about the cost of lawsuits. I can always make more money to pay whatever extra taxes that ensues. I won't like it, but I won't lose sleep over it. I, nor anyone else I know, can restore the life of an innocent six year old. Things like that do cause me to toss and turn.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> Thanks for not answering my questions about staffing and training, again. It's just another day in prison is an easy excuse, not really an answer. I do a lot of work with process improvement. Companies waste a lot of money doing things just because that's the way they've always done it and that it's just another day in the plant. Companies save a lot of money when they analyze those processes and what people are doing and how they are trained and make improvements. I've not watched your video. I've read your description. I don't have an emotional attachment to the prisoners. They're there for a reason and should follow the orders of the guards for the smooth operation of the prison and the safety of guards and prisoners. Having to call in guards from next door to handle the small number of prisoners you keep saying were involved looks to me like a failure in staffing, training and access to equipment. Male guards could have restrained the prisoners while female guards did the disrobings, searches and redressing. See, another solution presents itself. Your unwillingness to see any problem or any alternatives in cases like this is why cases like this will continue to happen and things won't change.
> 
> Most cops are good cops. Some are great. Some shouldn't have a badge. If we excuse the bad acts or even the mistakes of any of them without acknowledging and correcting the mistakes and punishing the blatant wrong doing we end up right where we're at today. With a small number of police officers thinking their badge gives them power and immunity.


I'm not doing a very good job explaining this situation. The male guards held the female prisoners down while the female guards used the cutting tool (think of a big seam ripper) to remove the prisoner's clothes. It is difficult and dangerous to undress a resisting prisoner. At one point, the woman's tee shirt buntched up in the cutting tool. The male guard, in Riot gear, pulled the material away from the cutting tool, so the tool could continue to cut. That minor action was later judged to be "undressing a female prisoner. Policies and procedures are in place to prohibit male guards from undressing female prisoners. 
I agree that there should always be a review of processes. In a manufacturing environment, we generally have repetitive situations and repetitive results. Not so with prison work and I'd guess police work. Generally, problems surface when people are facing a fresh situation, faced with an uncertain progression and a short amount of time to deduce the correct action. Following such situations, it becomes clear, coulda, woulda, shoulda.

While supervising a staff of 4 guards in a 92 cell Segregation Unit, filled with prisoners that recently committed acts of violence on staff or other prisoners, hence placement in single man cells with limited out of cell activity. These guys get an hour a day in an outside caged area and allowed to shower twice a week. Each meal is served through a slot in the cell door. It is kept latched shut. 
When these prisoners are taken out of their cell for their daily activity or shower, they are placed in belly chain and hand cuffs. The cuffs are attached at each side of the chain, not together like you see on TV. The belly chain is attached at the back with a padlock. There is a 4 foot nylon strap attached that guards hold to prevent the convict from running off.
The food slot door is opened, inmate shoves out his hands, the cuffs are applied. the felon stands, turns around and guards connect the ends of the belly chain, with a padlock. The electric, steel, sliding cell door is opened about 8 inches and the lead strap is passed from the food slot to the opening in the door. The door is opened the rest of the way and the prisoner walks to the outside exercise cages or o the shower. Then, through the shower door or exercise area door, the restraints come off. This is repeated 92 times on most days and 184 times on shower days.
One day, we had a prisoner that was brought in that had broken a bone in his arm.It was in a cast from the middle of his upper arm, down to the lower part of his forearm. He had a sling, but wasn't using it.
Policy and safety procedures are always followed. If you failed to follow a procedure and staff or prisoners were hurt, you'd be fired.
Not knowing exactly what to do with the cast arm, it seemed reasonable to follow procedure and since the cast allowed his arm to hang in close alignment with the cuff on the belly chain, we just treated him as all others. Worked fine. We supplied plastic bag and tape to protect the cast while in the shower. Generally, we also check each cell for contraband while the cell is vacant. 
Tobacco and matches were found in this guy's cell. These detention prisoners are not allowed these items.
As the prisoner with the cast arm was escorted back to his cell, he deduced that his smoking products had been discovered and removed. He became argumentative and refused to return to his cell until his smokes were returned. Staff opened the cell door, shoved him into the cell, swapped the lead strap from the door opening to the food slot opening, closed the door. 
Pulling on the lead strap brought the padlock to the food slot opening and the padlock was removed. The prisoner grabbed the belly chain and held it with both hands. As staff held tight, they were able to get a cuff key into the cuff on one wrist and remove one cuff. Now all there was still attached to the prisoner was one cuff on the arm with the cast. The convict tried to pull the chain and strap into his cell. Staff tried to pull the chain and get access to the remaining cuff. Suddenly, without warning, the prisoner released the chain. In a split second, this resulted in staff dragging the prisoner's casted arm through the food slot opening. Plaster was all over the hallway, the prisoners cast was stuck in the food slot. No one had expected this turn of events. Reviewing a video of the whole event, seeing how it turned out, anyone could come up with a better solution. But at that time, when critical choices had to be made, within the bounds of department policy, that doesn't specify or exclude cast arms, we thought we were doing our best.
We carefully moved his cast back through the food slot,into the cell. The inmate, still angry about us taking his smokes, smashed his cast into a million pieces against the bed frame, leaving the cell littered with plaster and gauze. Had that event been plastered across the national news, we would have been fired. But we were doing the best we could, had addressed security as best we could and the situation developed in ways we couldn't have expected. But that's life. 
I'll grant you, there are bad cops. But I think most of the time, Cops are trying to do their jobs and things get out of hand. 

I have a cultipacker. It packs and levels a field after planting. Mine has a set of wheels mounted to the top. Just flip the tongue and you can pull it down the road. I was able to flip it onto the tires, leaving the packing wheels on top. But as I attempted to pin the tongue to the tractor, I picked up on the tongue, throwing the balance off. I tried to push the tongue down, but was far outweighed. By the time I realized I couldn't stop it, it pulled me over backwards across the top of this heavy equipment. I broke a rib. If I had a video of this event, it is obvious that I could have done a couple things differently and not have been injured. I don't use this cultipacker often, so it surprised me.

Cops face all sorts of situations. Unlike the Lone Ranger, they aren't in a fist fight and gun fight every day. Often they make good choices that still turn out badly. Reviewing and second guessing later isn't proof of a bad cop.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

haypoint said:


> I'm not doing a very good job explaining this situation. The male guards held the female prisoners down while the female guards used the cutting tool (think of a big seam ripper) to remove the prisoner's clothes. It is difficult and dangerous to undress a resisting prisoner. At one point, the woman's tee shirt buntched up in the cutting tool. The male guard, in Riot gear, pulled the material away from the cutting tool, so the tool could continue to cut. That minor action was later judged to be "undressing a female prisoner. Policies and procedures are in place to prohibit male guards from undressing female prisoners.
> I agree that there should always be a review of processes. In a manufacturing environment, we generally have repetitive situations and repetitive results. Not so with prison work and I'd guess police work. Generally, problems surface when people are facing a fresh situation, faced with an uncertain progression and a short amount of time to deduce the correct action. Following such situations, it becomes clear, coulda, woulda, shoulda.
> 
> While supervising a staff of 4 guards in a 92 cell Segregation Unit, filled with prisoners that recently committed acts of violence on staff or other prisoners, hence placement in single man cells with limited out of cell activity. These guys get an hour a day in an outside caged area and allowed to shower twice a week. Each meal is served through a slot in the cell door. It is kept latched shut.
> ...


I never said it was. I said reviewing and correcting and learning from mistakes lessens the likelyhood of the same mistakes from happening again. Just like your cultipacker accident. You could ignore it and make the same mistakes again and suffer the same, or worse, consequences. Or you could learn from it and do things differently. We can learn from the mistakes even the best cops make and train so they're not tragically repeated. We can acknowledge and punish the abuses by bad cops and try to ensure no bad cop remains. Or we can blindly defend all actions by all cops and perpetuate the problem. Criticism of the officers involved in the incident the OP brought forth shouldn't be seen as criticism of all cops but of acknowledgment that bad cops do exist and they do deserve punishment.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> I never said it was. I said reviewing and correcting and learning from mistakes lessens the likelyhood of the same mistakes from happening again. Just like your cultipacker accident. You could ignore it and make the same mistakes again and suffer the same, or worse, consequences. Or you could learn from it and do things differently. We can learn from the mistakes even the best cops make and train so they're not tragically repeated. We can acknowledge and punish the abuses by bad cops and try to ensure no bad cop remains. Or we can blindly defend all actions by all cops and perpetuate the problem. Criticism of the officers involved in the incident the OP brought forth shouldn't be seen as criticism of all cops but of acknowledgment that bad cops do exist and they do deserve punishment.


Some would criticize that you'd be reactive, sort of like closing the barn door after the horse got loose. The prison always writes new policies after a daring escape.
Just seems there is a growing belief that there are only bad cops that got caught and bad cops that haven't yet been caught. 
Anyone that knows anything about law, knows that courts don't determine guilt or innocence. You are either proven guilty or you are not guilty. No one needs to prove innocence.
Seems that the public expects the Cops to prove they are innocent. If there is any ambiguity, they must be guilty.
If the cops grab a person refusing to be arrested by wrapping their arm around the guy's neck and pulling him down. It is assumed the Cop put him in a choke hold and suffocated the guy. Upon further investigation, video and autopsy showed he wasn't choked. But lacking proof otherwise, everyone was willing to believe they saw him being choked, because most people can't discern the difference between a headlock and a choke hold. But most Black Lives Matter folks still believed he was choked to death.

Seems like a lynch mob mentality. This has led to a spike in Cop killings. This is sure to put all cops on edge and there will be more split second reactions and more shootings.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

It's more like learning not to leave the door open next time. The idea is to learn from mistakes, not repeat them. Sometimes the mistake has to happen before the problem is recognized. There is always a danger in overreacting.? There's also a danger in not reacting at all. 

As for your "spike". We're on pace to have the fewest police officers shot in year in recent history. This with many more law enforcement officers than ever. http://poorrichardsnews.com/war-on-cops-stats-show-2015-on-pace-to-be/


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I find it it interesting that some want to excuse the cops mistakes but never their victims. 
Cops are supposed to be well trained professionals. 
I would think they would get less slack than a total amateur who may not have graduated 4th grade. 

Yes I expect more from the professionals. 

I think there are very few evil cops but I do believe that most of them are human. 
Humans make mistakes and in the situation where one human has control of another humans life it needs to be watched very closely.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

haypoint said:


> Just seems there is a growing belief that there are only bad cops that got caught and bad cops that haven't yet been caught.


May be just a perception problem, on both sides.
I was looking at conviction stats by the DOJ but I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for. That and the inevitable "That source is no good" reply is the reason I won't put up any link at all. People are free to use Google, lol.

The per capita rate of convicted felons is 8.6% for the general population.
I couldn't find one just for law enforcement. I suspect it is slightly lower, but I don't know the exact number.

My point is the same as previous.
In a given barrel of apples there are BOUND to be a few bad ones.
To deny any is unwise, to think that they won't eventually spread disease to the rest is also unwise.
No one likes to bite into a bad apple, so word to the wise is sufficient.






haypoint said:


> Anyone that knows anything about law, knows that courts don't determine guilt or innocence. You are either proven guilty or you are not guilty. No one needs to prove innocence.
> Seems that the public expects the Cops to prove they are innocent. If there is any ambiguity, they must be guilty.
> 
> Seems like a lynch mob mentality. This has led to a spike in Cop killings. This is sure to put all cops on edge and there will be more split second reactions and more shootings.


That is indeed the way it is SUPPOSED to work, reality is quite the opposite.
And yes, I have sat in a jury AND in the defendant's chair.
The view was the same.
Almost everyone assumes you are guilty and you must work very hard to prove your innocence.
It isn't easy, but it is still possible.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> May be just a perception problem, on both sides.
> I was looking at conviction stats by the DOJ but I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for. That and the inevitable "That source is no good" reply is the reason I won't put up any link at all. People are free to use Google, lol.
> 
> The per capita rate of convicted felons is 8.6% for the general population.
> ...


I think you stats are somewhat meaningless. In Michigan young, 19 to 29 years old, unemployed or not attending school, black males account for 60% of the major/violent crimes, yet account for less than 1% of the state's population. So, with that group out of the picture, crime rate you picked, drops to about 3%.
While the jury must rely on the evidence, not what they believe about the arresting officer, if there were a large number of people brought before the courts and found not guilty, then something is wrong with the Cops and the prosecutor. Nothing should be brought before the courts that doesn't have a solid case behind it.

But that said, if you started off every case believing the Cop is a liar, his testimony unbelievable, then crime rates will escalate.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

haypoint said:


> I think you stats are somewhat meaningless. In Michigan young, 19 to 29 years old, unemployed or not attending school, black males account for 60% of the major/violent crimes, yet account for less than 1% of the state's population. So, with that group out of the picture, crime rate you picked, drops to about 3%.
> While the jury must rely on the evidence, not what they believe about the arresting officer, if there were a large number of people brought before the courts and found not guilty, then something is wrong with the Cops and the prosecutor. Nothing should be brought before the courts that doesn't have a solid case behind it.
> 
> But that said, if you started off every case believing the Cop is a liar, his testimony unbelievable, then crime rates will escalate.




Yes, national stats will have anomalies.
Florida was actually one of them with a way higher rate than the national average.
But stats DO mean something.
It means that this isn't 100% one way or 100% the other.
There is good and bad in the general population and it stands to reason the same is true of LEO's.
We all look the same with our pants off........eep:


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> I find it it interesting that some want to excuse the cops mistakes but never their victims.
> Cops are supposed to be well trained professionals.
> I would think they would get less slack than a total amateur who may not have graduated 4th grade.
> 
> ...


So you are equating thugs, murderers, rapists, etc to police officers.

And the police officers should be perfect every time.

But the thugs have almost no responsibility for their actions.

The cop gets no slack at all, while the thug can do whatever and that is just fine. Scream, act out, belligerent, threatening, that is fine for that individual to act that way.

The police officer is going to be the bad person, the cause of all problems, should anything at all happen to the thug in any way.

That is how I read your comments. Perhaps not what you are trying to say, but it is what I am reading.


I think we are in real trouble as a society, as this sort of thinking grows. My opinion.

Paul


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Many of them aren't trustworthy either
> 
> That link is old news that really only applies to those individuals.
> I have lots of good friends who are LEO's and they are nothing at all like that.


Really? Going with the anecdotal argument there? You would hammer the snot out of anyone else who did that.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

rambler said:


> So you are equating thugs, murderers, rapists, etc to police officers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I agree with with your 2nd 3rd and 4th paragraphs. 
Is there a reason it shouldn't be like that ?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> Really? Going with the anecdotal argument there? You would hammer the snot out of anyone else who did that.


You want empirical data?
There are about *750,000* LEO's in the country.

They deal with millions of people each day with nothing bad happening

I'm not getting hysterical because one or two of them may have done something wrong.

I haven't seen any evidence, and I'm not going to proclaim their guilt based on gossip about some "feud".

The jury will figure it out, and it has no effect on me at all


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

One or two?

I think the statistics would be a shock to some people.
Suffice it to say that the crime rate among LEO's is almost identical to the general population.
The types of crime and the conviction rates were interesting and varied, but the overall numbers will give one a different perspective than a pair of rose colored glasses.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You want empirical data?
> There are about *750,000* LEO's in the country.
> 
> They deal with millions of people each day with nothing bad happening
> ...


 So true and the way this media is now days things just get blown up way out of proportion, and it makes things sound so much worse then it is just because of so many seem to want to get on the bandwagon because they have had a bad time with LEO. Sure there a a few bad ones they are being weeded out but lets not go off the rail here and make the majority look bad, they are not~!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> *One or two*?
> 
> I think the statistics would be a shock to some people.
> Suffice it to say that the crime rate among LEO's is almost identical to the general population.
> The types of crime and the conviction rates were interesting and varied, but the overall numbers will give one a different perspective than a pair of rose colored glasses.


Yes, the one or two in the OP.
Not every one, every where.



> Down in Avoyelles Parrish *two officers* shot a man after what they claim was a pursuit.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You want empirical data?
> There are about *750,000* LEO's in the country.
> 
> They deal with millions of people each day with nothing bad happening
> ...





Bearfootfarm said:


> Yes, the one or two in the OP.
> Not every one, every where.



Yes, I read the OP's article.
What confused me was the statement about 750,000 nationwide.
Was that part of your post supposed to be considered "irrelevant"?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

farmrbrown said:


> One or two?
> 
> I think the statistics would be a shock to some people.
> Suffice it to say that the crime rate among LEO's is almost identical to the general population.
> The types of crime and the conviction rates were interesting and varied, but the overall numbers will give one a different perspective than a pair of rose colored glasses.



That would be the reported crime rate. 
I think it's fair to assume that like other criminals cops are not caught every time. 

I think the numbers might be skewed even further by the brotherhood of blue. I think cops will give other cops a break where they wouldn't normally.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I'm not getting hysterical because one or two of them may have done something wrong.



Nope not one or two. 
In my case everyone I've met. 
I am acquainted with a few good cops and at some point when they are relaxed they have all bragged about the crimes they commited. 

I was with a bunch of young people at a jail walk through one time. A young cop who was on juvenile duty gave a talk about being incarcerated. 
At first the talk was very appropriate but as he relaxed and the crowd warmed to him he started to tell more stories of how much power he could have. It was interesting watching Jaws drop and faces close over as he lost each of the young people in that crowd. 
On the ride back home the discussion was if he could be turned in for the crimes he had just told about. The consensus of course was you can't fight the cops it led to a very depressed group of young people. 

Sometimes I think cops are their own worst enemies.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> Yes, I read the OP's article.
> What confused me was the statement about 750,000 nationwide.
> Was that part of your post supposed to be considered "irrelevant"?


I'm not sure why you're confused, but you can call it anything you like.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Nope not one or two.
> In my case everyone I've met.
> I am acquainted with a few good cops and at some point when they are relaxed they have all bragged about the crimes they commited.
> 
> ...


You should know better than to believe everything they tell you.
Keep in mind he was *trying* to scare you.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You should know better than to believe everything they tell you.
> 
> Keep in mind he was *trying* to scare you.



Lol Well one is the ex's SO So who knows.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You want empirical data?
> There are about *750,000* LEO's in the country.
> 
> They deal with millions of people each day with nothing bad happening
> ...





Bearfootfarm said:


> Yes, the one or two in the OP.
> Not every one, every where.





farmrbrown said:


> Yes, I read the OP's article.
> What confused me was the statement about 750,000 nationwide.
> Was that part of your post supposed to be considered "irrelevant"?





Bearfootfarm said:


> I'm not sure why you're confused, but you can call it anything you like.



"Irrelevant" it is then.
I was confused because you included the total number of LEO's with the statement, *
"I'm not getting hysterical because one or two of them may have done something wrong."*........which then was followed by this.



Bearfootfarm said:


> Yes, the one or two in the OP.
> Not every one, every where.



Which is why I asked, did you think it was relevant or not?
Otherwise, why say it?

The typical response is, "That's one story about one bad cop, but there are hundreds of thousands in the country."
A true statement, but it ignores the daily stories that add up to thousands at the year's end.
It's ok to include relevant facts, but don't ignore the other relevant facts.





Bearfootfarm said:


> You should know better than to believe everything they tell you.


Good advice.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> That would be the reported crime rate.
> I think it's fair to assume that like other criminals cops are not caught every time.
> 
> I think the numbers might be skewed even further by the brotherhood of blue. I think cops will give other cops a break where they wouldn't normally.


Have y'all posted the story about the drunk cop here yet? Well this is sad, I went to find and got a boat load of stories. 

http://nj1015.com/vomit-covered-sev...ed-woman-1000-not-to-report-crash-police-say/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...mothers-against-drunk-driving-award/75507038/

http://filmingcops.com/cop-gets-drunk-and-starts-shooting-random-citizens-lawsuit/

Need to keep the Jameson away from these boys.....

This was the one I was actually thinking of: http://www.copblock.org/146708/drun...s-not-only-was-he-not-killed-he-kept-his-job/



> Police officer John Gorman is due to appear in court next month, to face charges of âaggravated discharge of a firearmâ after he fired several shots at other off-duty cops who were attempting to pull him over while he was driving drunk.
> The 53-year-old officer was caught driving drunk on November 23rd of last year when another cop noticed that he almost ran over a flower vendor. Gorman was followed by multiple police and began to weave in and out of traffic trying to outrun them. Eventually, Gorman ended up stopping at a traffic light where he was approached by multiple officers.
> When they approached his vehicle with their badges in the air, they noticed that Gorman even had an open bottle in his hand. Gorman allowed the officers to approach his car until the light turned green, at which point he sped off down the street. After racing through the streets for several more minutes, Gorman pulled over and began to fire his gun at the officers who were following him.
> Gorman actually ended up getting away, but his license plate was reported to police, and he was quickly brought in for questioning.
> ...


Talk about getting a break!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> *"Irrelevant" it is then.*
> I was confused because you included the total number of LEO's with the statement, *
> "I'm not getting hysterical because one or two of them may have done something wrong."*........which then was followed by this.
> 
> ...


Maybe I should PM you all my posts for pre-approval


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

I don't know if I'd go THAT far, but I'd definitely fire the guy who's doing it now.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> I don't know if I'd go THAT far, but I'd definitely fire the guy who's doing it now.


*That's* irrelevant


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

When people build a case to support their viewpoint and include a long list of myths, they begin to see the problem as pervasive.
If you believe Zimmerman killed a boy in cold blood, that Ferguson's Gentile Giant was running away or giving himself up when shot, that the guy selling cigarette singles was choked to death, it makes it easier to jump to conclusions about things before the facts are in. When there are few facts and the case hangs on the testimony of Cops, then based on your recollection of mythical past arrests, you may assume the Cops are lying.
Not saying there has never been a bad cop, but the way some portray it, there are only bad cops and bad cops that haven't been caught.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

haypoint said:


> When people build a case to support their viewpoint and include a long list of myths, they begin to see the problem as pervasive.
> If you believe Zimmerman killed a boy in cold blood, that Ferguson's Gentile Giant was running away or giving himself up when shot, that the guy selling cigarette singles was choked to death, it makes it easier to jump to conclusions about things before the facts are in. When there are few facts and the case hangs on the testimony of Cops, then based on your recollection of mythical past arrests, you may assume the Cops are lying.
> Not saying there has never been a bad cop, but the way some portray it, there are only bad cops and bad cops that haven't been caught.


OK then, you acknowledge that this does happen. So, tell us, just how many deaths by cop are an acceptable level? How many people getting their faces smashed in are reasonable?

If you do not see a substantial change in the policing procedures from 20 years ago up to now then you have your eyes closed. If you think that allowing ALL cops the benefit of the doubt is reasonable then I would hope and pray that you never run afoul of another human that has been given the option of taking your life from you and then to pay no penalty should he have been operating in an unreasonable fashion.

I stand behind the good cops, I say that the bad cops should be given a much higher penalty than others when they cross the line.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Shine said:


> OK then, you acknowledge that this does happen. So, tell us, just how many deaths by cop are an acceptable level? How many people getting their faces smashed in are reasonable?
> 
> If you do not see a substantial change in the policing procedures from 20 years ago up to now then you have your eyes closed. If you think that allowing ALL cops the benefit of the doubt is reasonable then I would hope and pray that you never run afoul of another human that has been given the option of taking your life from you and then to pay no penalty should he have been operating in an unreasonable fashion.
> 
> I stand behind the good cops, I say that the bad cops should be given a much higher penalty than others when they cross the line.


I think it is a slippery slope when you punish one person at a different level than another. When someone kills a Cop. Should their punishment be greater? When a Black kills a White, should the punishment be greater? Lesser? When a White kills a Black should the punishment be greater (hate crime) or lesser?
Should athletes and movie stars be held to a higher standard and punished harder?

It happens and the acceptable number of bad Cops remains zero. Too often, I have seen an escalation, by the law-breaker, of a critical situation that increases the split second choices a Cop makes. The more choices done in the heat of a critical situation, the greater the risk to the law-breaker. 
If Cops have to take your sorry 400 pound butt into custody, The Cop and the other Cops are going to restrain you. If you don't want thrown to the sidewalk, comply with the Officers, do not resist. But if you resist and the world sees your video, let's hope they know enough about a legal take down to know the difference between a head lock and a choke. But to some, they think they saw a bad Cop choke a harmless street vendor to death. Autopsy results be darned.
Interesting that what some think they see in a video is a whole different thing when what you see is explained by a Cop that understands what is going on. 

Sorry, the only change I've seen is an erosion of respect shown to Cops. Cris Rock has an informational video on youtube how to not get kicked. Really just common sense.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Shine said:


> OK then, you acknowledge that this does happen. So, tell us, just how many deaths by cop are an acceptable level? How many people getting their faces smashed in are reasonable?
> 
> If you do not see a substantial change in the policing procedures from 20 years ago up to now then you have your eyes closed. If you think that allowing ALL cops the benefit of the doubt is reasonable then I would hope and pray that you never run afoul of another human that has been given the option of taking your life from you and then to pay no penalty should he have been operating in an unreasonable fashion.
> 
> I stand behind the good cops, I say that the bad cops should be given a much higher penalty than others when they cross the line.


If you do not see a substantial increase in the danger level of the populace being policed from 20 years ago, then you have your eyes closed too. Remember the "good old days" when an armed bank robber was the ultimate bad guy? Then enter gang wars and terrorists and drive by's and such. Cops face a greater personal danger today than in the past, and their tactics reflect this. 

There is no "acceptable" level of death by cop. Each case has to be examined individually and in depth, no matter how many or how few "deaths per thousand by cop interactions" there might be happening. 

The more dash cams and body cams, the better. There have been a lot more instances where the video showed the police taking proper actions than not. That footage just doesn't make the 6 oclock news.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

The only point that I am trying to make is that when a bad cop is identified, they should be sanctioned, assigned to a desk or punished, that is all.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

MO_cows said:


> If you do not see a substantial increase in the danger level of the populace being policed from 20 years ago, then you have your eyes closed too. Remember the "good old days" when an armed bank robber was the ultimate bad guy? Then enter gang wars and terrorists and drive by's and such. Cops face a greater personal danger today than in the past, and their tactics reflect this.
> .


It may "seem" that way, but the stats say otherwise. In fact it's now at a 50 year low.
The link below has several categories. You have to remember not every death is an intentional killing, there are traffic fatalities and accidents as well.
http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html

I agree that the times are more dangerous today, but law enforcement has managed to keep up with safety of their personnel.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> I think it is a slippery slope when you punish one person at a different level than another. When someone kills a Cop. Should their punishment be greater? .



It is quite common to hold professionals to a higher standard. 
If fact a Boone county mo judge used that very reason to set truckers fines ten times higher than standard. 
I suggest cops be punished at that same x10 standard , judges and prosecutors at x100 and legislators at x1000. 

By the same logic the punishment for killing a cop should never be more than for the common citizen and in light of their profession status probably less. 

Remember they are the servants there to protect the common man. NOT the other way around.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> It is quite common to hold professionals to a higher standard.
> If fact a Boone county mo judge used that very reason to set truckers fines ten times higher than standard.
> I suggest cops be punished at that same x10 standard , judges and prosecutors at x100 and legislators at x1000.
> 
> ...



We give Cops guns and bullet proof vests to protect themselves and protect us, so they can do their jobs as servants of the public. If setting the punishment of shooting, assaulting or killing a Cop higher, then it serves as protection to Cops. Right? You against supplying Cops the edge they need to do their jobs?

By your logic, since rich people have far more control and influence over the rest of us and our elected officials, Shouldn't we scale criminal punishment based on income? A Meth freak kills grandma over her prescriptions gets 1 year and a Millionaire that goes "doctor shopping" to obtain a sack of Oxycodone gets 100 years?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> We give Cops guns and bullet proof vests to protect themselves and protect us, so they can do their jobs as servants of the public. If setting the punishment of shooting, assaulting or killing a Cop higher, then it serves as protection to Cops. Right? You against supplying Cops the edge they need to do their jobs?
> ?



I think as a LEO you are seeing it backwards. I am all for cops being able to do their job as safely as posable. But that isn't their job. Their job is to keep joe the plumber safe. Joe is the one that should have the edge as he climbs under the sink. Cops on the other hand should expect to deal with law breakers each time the get ready for work , that already gives them a edge. 
Would you make the penalty for killing a secret service agent MORE than for assassinating the the president they protect ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> , Shouldn't we scale criminal punishment based on income? A Meth freak kills grandma over her prescriptions gets 1 year and a Millionaire that goes "doctor shopping" to obtain a sack of Oxycodone gets 100 years?



Well yes of course. 
Although you try to confuse things by introducing two different crimes. 

Let's look at a small crime 
Speeding for instance. 
The idea in the fines for it is to induce a little pain to deter people from repeating it. 
So how does it work ?
A man on his way to work has the choice between A ticket or being late. 
A poor man is choosing between loosing his job and a $125 fine that means doing without heat this month and then when the insurance premium kicks in. No electricity for months. 
A rich man looks at those same $125+$600 in costs and says bummer no dinner at the club. 
Fines should be a percent of disposable income. 
Time punishments intrinsically are more fair but not perfect.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Well yes of course.
> Although you try to confuse things by introducing two different crimes.
> 
> Let's look at a small crime
> ...


 Time? You aren't advocating fewer fines and more jail time are you? Could it be that jail is harder on those that work hardest and easier on those that refuse to work? The US already leads the industrialized world for incarcerations

More punishment those that work hard ( there is often a correlation between work and having stuff). Punish less those that work the least. Punish Cops the most and believe the testimony of criminals over Cops, because the Cops lie.

Interesting view of the world you've got.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Shine said:


> OK then, you acknowledge that this does happen. So, tell us, just how many deaths by cop are an acceptable level? How many people getting their faces smashed in are reasonable?
> 
> If you do not see a substantial change in the policing procedures from 20 years ago up to now then you have your eyes closed. If you think that allowing ALL cops the benefit of the doubt is reasonable then I would hope and pray that you never run afoul of another human that has been given the option of taking your life from you and then to pay no penalty should he have been operating in an unreasonable fashion.
> 
> *I stand behind the good cops,* I say that the bad cops should be given a much higher penalty than others when they cross the line.


I prefer to stand behind all cops, good or bad... Less danger of being shot that way.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

haypoint said:


> We give Cops guns and bullet proof vests to protect themselves and protect us, so they can do their jobs as servants of the public. If setting the punishment of shooting, assaulting or killing a Cop higher, then it serves as protection to Cops. Right? You against supplying Cops the edge they need to do their jobs?
> 
> By your logic, since rich people have far more control and influence over the rest of us and our elected officials, Shouldn't we scale criminal punishment based on income? *A Meth freak kills grandma over her prescriptions gets 1 year *and a Millionaire that goes "doctor shopping" to obtain a sack of Oxycodone gets 100 years?


I am thinking a year in the electric chair might be a bit of overkill.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

For those interested in an update, no trial yet, but 2nd degree murder charges have been filed.
I doubt there will be much info available to the public unless the gag order is lifted.

Not much new info in this link other than noted above, but definitely not any less "disturbing".

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ci...6-year-old-in-louisiana/ar-AAggN2d?li=BBnb7Kz


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

I guess we may have to wait for the trial to see the tapes.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

They are following the Chicago lead to let things cool down. This is not an uncommon practice for police or politicians.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

At least in this case it seems a legitimate attempt not to inflame things rather than one to hide things. Thanks, farmerbrown, for keeping us posted.


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