# a general math curriculum discussion... I don't like them!



## cindy-e (Feb 14, 2008)

The reasons why Math curricula are a good idea are also the reasons why I don't like them! They have to be incremental. Hard to do algebra if you don't know how to add. I get that. And in order to establish if a child really knows what has been taught, the problems have to be somewhat formulaic. You can't throw something new at them that hasn't been introduced, or else if they get a problem wrong you don't know if they really understood the concept being taught or not. 

BUT... after years of my kids doing math competitions, I have come to understand that what is taught as "mastery" (as above) should only be a START in our math curricula, not the end! The above does not teach mathematical reasoning, or use in the real world. How do you arrive at a number you need when the real world scenario you are in doesn't fit the formulas you learned in school? In a global market place, our kids are routinely placing 9th or less in comparison with the rest of the world in maths and I think this is one good reason why. Most curricula think that *more practice* doing formulaic problem sets will solve this issue, and that is how they are designed... lots of review. But that doesn't even address the question in my mind! 

So, my questions are...
a) Do you know of a math curriculum that you think does a good job teaching mathematical reasoning beyond formulaic problem sets?
b) How do you teach mathematical reasoning in your home *beyond* formulaic problem sets?


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## cindy-e (Feb 14, 2008)

I'll start. 

1) The math curricula that I think does a good job teaching mathematical reasoning and use is called Challenge Math. It is by Edward Zaccaro. It is meant to be used in conjunction with a standard math curriculum. We have used it, and really like it. Also, Lego Robotics with it's curriculum is very good, and very motivating b/c it feels like play and they are motivated to get the bot to work. (They are expensive tho... the school system paid for ours or we wouldn't have them. It would be doable if you work in a group and help each other pay, but probably out of the reach of most individuals, I am sorry to say.) 

2) The ways we teach mathematical include the things everyone does of course... like real world cooking experiences, where we deliberately change the servings to be either higher or lower than the original recipe so that they have to work with ratios and fractions. Engineering projects like helping us design a simple hoop house, or trellis system for the garden, or chicken coop have been heplful. Computer skills... making them not only do reports, but requiring them to have a visual component and and audio component that sync, so that they have to deal with space, time, and etc... Also giving them the right kinds of toys when they are little helps, such as lincoln logs, leggos, kinex, a set of boards (with hammer, nails, and supervision), pvc pipe and connectors, measuirng cups with rice or dried beans or water or sand when they are very small, but actually asking for specific measures of things as soon as they can read. If you have kids that really like math, competitions are great, and usually free. 

What about you? 

Cindyc.


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## Sunbee (Sep 30, 2008)

I use Saxon--thoroughly covers the basics and the kids can work mostly by themselves. I think the story problems Saxon uses are a good start at applying things to real world situations. I also drill times tables--they hate it but some stuff a person just has to have memorized.
But then we do a lot of applied math just as everyday stuff--how much lumber do we need to build a bookcase, if we have to double this recipe how much of each ingredient do we need, etc. (With four kids there are a lot of opportunities for doubling or tripling recipes.)


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## jamala (May 4, 2007)

I have used saxon for my 10th grader and 8th grader. The 10th grader is just now moving to teaching textbooks for geometry because that is what our local co-op is going to use. Saxon re-visits each skill over and over and over, its not just introduce/teach/master/forget. 
As for how we apply real daily math skills we do just like Cindy-e said. We use it everyday. Today my 15 year old is figuring how many post he will need to fence a new property, How much wire, ties, etc. He recently build me a greenhouse, figured the measurments, drew the plans to scale, figured the wood/nails/posts etc. all on his own. We also cook and use math that way all the time. I will tell the kids to cut a reciepe down or multiply it to feed more.


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

I'm not sure if you are talking about older children or younger children but have you heard of right start math? I hear so many good things about this program sometimes I wish I had used it with my older children. The problem with it is that it is teacher intensive and I don't have so much time these days. I'm not sure if I had the time to start it now with the younger ones. 

Saxon is really good, but not so fun or motivating for some children. I wish it was formatted differently.


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

You may want to look at 

*Life of Fred math. *
It teaches math using every day concepts and situations.

It goes right up to and includes some college level math. 

My eldest son loves it, and finally grasped some difficult concepts using it.


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## cindy-e (Feb 14, 2008)

Our Little Farm said:


> You may want to look at
> 
> *Life of Fred math. *
> It teaches math using every day concepts and situations.
> ...


We love Life of Fred. There seems to be some controversy over whether or not it covers everything it should, but it is really entertaining, and it makes kids like math... that's worth a lot in my book!

Cindyc.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

For very young children, grade 2-3 and under, I liked Miquon math to develop reasoning. It's very, very different from any of the more classical math programs. It has manipulative rods, that kids can use to work out equations. Algebraic logic is taught from the beginning. For instance they put a number on a page, and you have to find different ways to equal that number. Let's say it is 32. So the child finds ways to make 32 and then writes out the equations. It could be 3 sets of 10 plus 2more or (3x10)+2. Then it could be 4sets of 8, etc. In this manner the concept of algebra is taught from age 5on. After finishing the Miquon books they can more onto the Key To programs even upto Algebra and Geometry. After that they can easily go onto any higher level math program. The downfall to this program is that the Geometry doesn't have proofs. And the whole program from "Miquon" to "Key To" looks simple, but it really is an advanced program for logical math skills. It's not just teach and test, it teaches reasoning ability. Dime math is also a good program for boys jr. high age because there is lots of drafting type skills in it, but I never felt it would be a good stand alone program. It's just more for fun while reinforcing some math skills.


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## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

For young kids there are a lot of resources for using real world math (beyond cooking and building skills), there are books like Family Math or The Grapes of Math. For middle school years the books by Danica McKellar are really wonderful to "understand" the reasons behind math. We've settled on Math U See and I think Steve does a decent job of explaining the why's behind math.


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## Veronica (Oct 31, 2008)

In the younger years, I think Math-U-See does a great job of teaching concepts. My children used the Primary (I think the names have changed now). I then switched to Singapore thru 6th grade. Then in 7th or 8th depending on the child we used Lial's Basic college math. It is a math book for community college remedial classes, and starts at the beginning - addition - and works up to pre-algebra. I found this a good book to close any gaps before starting Algebra.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

A.
I love, love, love Saxon.  
I've used it as a homeschooling teacher, I've used it as a SpEd teacher and I've used it as a regular classroom teacher (from grades 1 up to Algebra) and hands-down it is the best I've ever used. In my experience, it reaches the most kids, the most effectively and makes the greatest amount of logical progress. 
The older it gets, the more abstract it is (ie, the more useful in real applications).
Love it.

B. I never really plan to "use" math (or any other subject) at home. We just do it. :shrug: I was publicly educated, but raised by two teachers and we "just did" school, also. As a grandparent now speaking to her adult child, my mother refers to it as "enrichment" but really it was just "life." 
My kids cook. They help build things. They plan and organize the garden. They help shop. They plan trips. And so on. 
All of these things are real-life applications of mathematical skills...


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## Blossom'sGirl (Jan 3, 2008)

When I looked for a math curriculum I wanted something that made math more meaningful not just rote computations. I have started all 4 of my boys using RightStart math which helps the student to "see" how the operations and numbers work. It is also worksheet lite and teacher heavy (which I wanted). Unfortunately this program takes them only to 4th grade. My oldest switched to Singapore Math for 5th and 6th grades and he did OK, but SM is presented mastery style and he would forget how to do other things because he needed more review.

My second oldest has switched to CLE math in 5th grade which is not as conceptual as Singapore, but is very independent and reviews constantly. 

All of my boys start using the Challenging Word Problems series from Singapore Math in 2nd grade. I have them do 1 or 2 problems a day along with their regular math and through the summer. These problems are great. I have an engineering degree, and I would be stumped from time to time. Fortunately there is a forum where you can ask for help. 

Oldest also does the Life of Fred books, mostly because he just enjoys the goofy storyline. I tried to get his younger brother to do it, but he is not a big reader so he was not enthused by all the reading involved.

I agree that it is an important skill to be able to take a problem and make it a mathematical equation without the equation being spoon-fed to you. My oldest is starting to approach Algebra and I know he already understands a lot because of his background in understand concepts in the earlier years.


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

cindy-e said:


> We love Life of Fred. There seems to be some controversy over whether or not it covers everything it should, but it is really entertaining, and it makes kids like math... that's worth a lot in my book!
> 
> Cindyc.


Yeah, kids love it and actually understand WHY they need to learn math! 
Which books have you used?


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## cindy-e (Feb 14, 2008)

Our Little Farm said:


> Yeah, kids love it and actually understand WHY they need to learn math!
> Which books have you used?


I haven't used all of any of them. Borrowed them from a friend a while back. I have my eye on them for my daughter who is not as naturally good at math as my other kids for next year tho. For her, I don't know that it matters if she has an engineer's level of math competency. She just needs to be able to get through college algebra eventually. She has a sense of humor and so I know she will love them. =0)

Cindyc.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

cindy-e said:


> She just needs to be able to get through college algebra eventually.
> Cindyc.


Is she at a level that she could do algebra now then? I don't know how old she is? I went up to Saxon alg 1/2, then just used an old college algerbra book with the oldest boys for a couple of years. We just went through it page by page all together. My younger son has some minimal brain damage, so College Algebra didn't seem like something he would ever get to do, but he went to Saxon Alg 1/2. (He did struggle with it), so then we went back to Key2 Algerbra for him. My daughter did all the Miquon then Key 2 stuff, then we did some Saxon 7/6 and then went on to Abeka grade 7 Math. (It's the best book Abeka has in math IMO). I think the last year or so she just did Saxon alg 1/2. She is made to be a Mommy, so that worked for her.

But, if you have a child that is planning to do a lot of math in her life, then just get an old college Alg text and use it. I still had mine from way back, so we used it. Algebra is algebra... It doesn't matter who writes the book or what publisher it says on the front. It's all the same. The only difference is in the presentation and speed it goes through the program. You can adjust that yourself. I personally wouldn't be paying 100 dollars or more for a program if you can get a text at GoodWill for three bucks. In fact I bought all our Saxon books on Ebay for less than five dollars a book.


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## pfaubush (Aug 17, 2009)

I have struggled with the concepts with my middle daughter. She is dyslexic, so have found math to be traumatic for both of us at times. After starting Math-U-See, she is starting to understand the concept and reasoning behind much of it and math is becoming a much more enjoyable and understandable subject. I honestly can't say enough good things about it! 

I am off to check out Life of Fred though. I'm always up for something new and fun. So are the kids!


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

cindy-e said:


> I haven't used all of any of them. Borrowed them from a friend a while back. I have my eye on them for my daughter who is not as naturally good at math as my other kids for next year tho. For her, I don't know that it matters if she has an engineer's level of math competency. She just needs to be able to get through college algebra eventually. She has a sense of humor and so I know she will love them. =0)
> 
> Cindyc.


I found them a really good price brand new. My oldest son has some signs of dyslexia and has moved on leaps and bounds using Life of Fred. He is now right where he needs to be. It has boosted his confidence in math and he is enjoying it. 
He did ok before, made good grades, but did not seem to be able to remember concepts. Now he does.


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