# Why is swarming bad?



## GBov (May 4, 2008)

Sorry for the silly question but its been bugging me for a while...........why is swarming bad?


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## Elizabeth (Jun 4, 2002)

I just posted this earlier on Traci Ann's thread-

_First, you really do not want your bees swarming willy nilly. There are a couple of problems with that approach. One is that your original hives may weaken to the point that they do not survive the winter- depends a lot upon how many times they swarm, and when. And, if you are trying to make a honey crop, which most beekeepers are, then swarming reduces your field force, which, depending on when they swarm in relation to the nectar flow, could result in much less honey production from the hive.

Next problem is that the bees will be raising their own queens and you will have no control/input over what they raise, in terms of selecting for desirable traits. When left to their own devices, bees tend to lose gentleness pretty quickly if it is not selected for in the breeding program. Depending upon the type of bees you have, they may lose other desirable traits and increase undesirable traits- you might end up with bees that are mean, difficult to work, unproductive, swarmy, etc._

There are several reasons why swarming is bad, but these are my main objections.


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## GBov (May 4, 2008)

But if pollinators world wide are suffering a drastic reduction, surely every hive is needed so wild bees are a plus rather than a minus. 

Couldnt it be considered greedy to want all the honey and the bees for ourselves?

Just for the sake of information, rather than to poke a stick into a hornets nest :lookout:

I am going to be getting bees at some point in the next two years so I really am interested. At the moment I walk amid the wild flowers and see NO BEES at all bar the odd bumble bee so thats why I have been pondering this question. If everybody with bees is so hot to keep them all and the wild bees are dieing off where else can the environment get more bees except from us?


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## Elizabeth (Jun 4, 2002)

The reason you see no wild bees probably has more to do with the presence of the varroa mite than it does the current problem of CCD. The varroa mite came here from Asia, where it lives on Asian bees without killing off the bees. When the mites arrived in the US they killed off a lot of managed hives and most of the feral hives. 

Now, beekeepers have to treat their bees annually to get rid of the mites, or at least to hold them at bay so the bees can stay alive and, hopefully, productive.

There is little point in allowing or encouraging bees to swarm when chances are they will die out within 2-3 years if left to their own devices and not treated for mites. Some beekeepers do catch swarms, or find feral hives out in the woods, or wherever, and designate them as "survivor" colonies which they think are somehow resistant to the mites. I have even seen these colonies, or their issue, offered for sale as such. However, there really is no way that the beekeeper can know where the bees came from, and chances are, those bees swarmed from someone else's hives. I don't give much credit to those kinds of reports- in fact, I think they are a scam and a rip off. Mites aren't the only concern- there are other parasites and a few diseases which bees can carry- so in fact, a beekeeper could be doing more harm than good by allowing his bees to swarm. What if they are carrying disease and fly off where they will come into contact with other, healthier bees and transmit the disease to those bees? How would that be helpful? 

As far as pollinators go, yes, the world needs them. But, as far as agriculture goes, the bees are needed in the fields where the crops are being grown, not miles away in a hollow tree, or in someone's barn or garage.

As far as the environment needing bees, realize that honeybees aren't even native to North America. The environment needs pollinators, but there are many, many other species around that can pollinate the native plants. 

All of which is not to say that we should not keep bees- personally, I think everyone should have a few hives! I just think that if you do keep them you should manage them properly so that they are an asset and not a detriment, either to the environment or to some other beekeeper's colonies.

If you are serious about bees, find your local beekeeper's association and hook up with them. Even though you don't plan to get bees for a couple of years yet, you can start learning about them now and you will be ahead of the game by the time you get your hives.


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## GBov (May 4, 2008)

The reason its not on the cards for this year is we are in the process of moving from Ireland back to the states and I dont think the airline would let me bring my hive as carry on luggage hehehe

My mum is however taking classes on bee keeping at the mo. even though she is only going to be siteing a hive for the owner, rather than owning and manageing it herself.

I remember less than ten years ago watching the bees in clover or gorse blosom, swarming over the flowers and now, nothing, not a bzzzz to be heard. Its not only sad but eerie as well. 

If there are no bees present, how would reintroducing them pose a risk?


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## Iddee (Sep 25, 2005)

I think you both are absolutely right.

Even tho we try to prevent our bees from swarming, I can assure you we will never be 100% successful. There will always be swarms that we lose, and will repopulate the woods when they are strong enough to survive.


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## Elizabeth (Jun 4, 2002)

Bees will travel quite a distance in search of nectar and pollen, as far away as 5 miles if they have to, but usually only 2-3 miles from the hive. So if I have bees on one side of town, my friend has bees on the other side of town, say 8 miles from mine, and he doesn't treat his for disease, there is always a chance that one of those feral hives which you just released or let swarm 3 miles from my friend's bees will wander over to his place, enter one of his hives, and pick up some mites. Then, the feral bee goes back to her own hive and the next day she flies in the opposite direction, over to my place, and goes into one of my hives. While she is there she leaves a mite, which then lays eggs in my hive, and pretty soon I have a population of mites which destroys my hives. Not fun.

Or, maybe that feral bee gets into someone's diseased hive and then travels around spreading the disease amongst all the other feral hives in the area- soon we are back to zero feral hives again.

So, if you are going to keep honeybees, you need to make every effort to manage them properly. Remember that they are not like livestock which you can fence and keep on your own property. They will travel beyond the boundaries of your property and you need to be responsible and make sure that they do not endanger anyone else's bees.

Besides, bees are so expensive now, what sense would it make to buy bees and all the equipment and then let them swarm? Or worse, release them intentionally? That would be nuts. Our local association placed a group order for package bees this year and I ordered a few extra packages to have on hand for new members who wanted to join after the deadline for ordering had passed. I still had 3 extras which I did not plan to keep so I advertised them for sale. I had a lot of inquiries but refused to sell them to anyone who was not already an experienced beekeeper, OR who was not a member of their local association. Beekeeping isn't rocket science and you can learn from books, but I wanted those bees to go to people who had the best chance of succeeding with them and to me that means someone who is interested enough in learning to seek out and join a club, or who has an experienced beekeeper as a mentor.

If your main concern is pollinators, you can always get orchard mason bees or another type of native bee which does not make honey, or at least, doesn't make a surplus. You can buy some species, and/or you can set up housing and habitat which will attract them to your property. Much cheaper in the long run, and possibly more beneficial to the environment. Also, much less work on your part because you don't need to manage them. You can provide habitat for wasps, yellow jackets, hornets, butterflies- all kinds of different insect pollinators. I don't know a whole lot about them because my interest is mainly honeybees, but I am sure you could find a lot of good info on the internet.

But hey, as long as you are going to be in Georgia, you should know that they have some of the best beekeeping education in the country down there. The Young-Harris Beekeeping Institute, The University of Georgia Entomology Dept., lots of good local associations, etc. You should take advantage of them while you are there.


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## GBov (May 4, 2008)

Thanks, good information

My mum is already a member in her local bee keeper group and I will join after the move. Its just the lack of all polinators this year after the cold wet summer last year (and this one is shapeing up to be the same) has got me wondering. This spring I have seen two bumble bees and about six butterflies and thats it! Not a honey bee in sight. We live in dairy and sheep country so there is no spraying anywhere around, well, other than slurry (phew, stinky lol) 

Do bees go into eachothers hives? I would have thought contact amongst the flowers would be more likely?

The best honey I ever had was from an oak limb that came down in a storm. It had part of a hive in so I shoved my way in amongst the bees and fireants to grab what I could. We had a sintrifical (spelling aint me strong suit lol) juicer at the time so I put the bits of comb in it and let rip. I got a scant half cupfull of thick BLACK heavenly honey, I think it must have been pure oak blossom honey from the taste. There was so little of it I was just having a fingerfull or two a day to savor so when I came in to find my brother shoving the last bite of toast into his mouth saying "Wow, that was good honey, whered'ja get it?" I could have strangeled him:croc: every drop of my black gold went onto ONE piece of toast aaaaaaaaargh

We still laugh about it today but at the time it was mega not funny lol

I know that farmers need the bees for their crops but we all need bees for the countryside and if bees get loose it cant be as bad a thing as you describe but as I dont have bees yet I cant say what I will do if they want to swarm, probably whip up a new hive so I dont loose any money lol


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## Elizabeth (Jun 4, 2002)

Sometimes the bees will go into a hive other than their own- sometimes it is with the intent to rob, sometimes they just drift into a hive which is closer than their own hive when thy are out foraging, sometimes they will enter a hive just to check it out- maybe the queen pheromone is stronger, or different, and thus more appealing to them than their own. Yes, you are correct that the bees can also come into contact with other bees while out foraging, and they can transmit disease/parasites on those occasions.

I feel for you on the loss of your honey, lol. The absolute best honey I ever had was a strawberry/orange blossom which the bees made while pollinating a strawberry field which was located next to an orange grove. They don't usually make a surplus from strawberries (in our area, anyway,) but that year I had super strong hives going into strawberries and the weather was right, the stars aligned perfectly, and they stored a small band of strawberry honey along the bottoms of the frames. Then when orange blossom came in they filled out the frames with it- when we extracted it, it was exquisite!!!! I foolishly sold a bunch of it, not realizing at the time that I would soon be moving to Minnesota with no chance to repeat that harvest. I have 2 jars of it left, tucked away somewhere and I won't say where because hubby reads the forums, too. All I'll say is this- if those jars ever disappear I am going to kill hubby, then divorce him! (So, consider yourself forewarned, Baby!). (That's Mr. Jackpine Savage to the rest of you, lol).

By the time you get your bees I think what I am telling you will make more sense. Just consider this- doesn't it make more sense to keep the bees in a well-manage colony, where they are healthy and productive, than it does to let them swarm all over the place and set up house (er, hive) on their own where they receive no care, no treatment for diseases/parasites, no new queens, etc., and where they are at risk of an early demise? Kept in a hive by a conscientious beekeeper, those same bees can still fly around pollinating native plants without the risk to themselves or others. They aren't going to make any greater contribution to the environment if they are out in some hollow tree somewhere- in fact, they might well contribute less.

I hope you do get bees, and do well with them. It's nice to see someone who is as concerned for the bees and the environment as for the crop the bees might produce. When you've had a chance to get some hands-on experience I think (hope) you will agree with what I have said.


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