# winding off a bobbin



## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I want to try to 3-ply some yarn. I only have 3 bobbin and since mine is an irregular wheel, I doubt I can buy more bobbins. I'm going to try to wind the yarn off a bobbin and onto a cardboard bobbin. Do I need to do that with all three bobbins I will be plying so the twist direction wil be the same on all of them? Will winding onto a cardboard bobbin affect the direction of the plying twist I should use? I can't see it in my mind very well. Thanks!


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## lambs.are.cute (Aug 15, 2010)

I'm no expert but when I am ready to ply I wind off the bobbin into a ball (I have a hand crank ball winder which makes a center pull ball). I don't have a problem plying from this (as long as I don't loose the ends) and have wound the balls in both directions.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

So you you start plying with the same end you would if it were still on the bobbin? I think that's my real question. I am not experienced to even know what I am really doing....yet.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Callie it doesn't matter. You won't change the direction of the twist. When I ply I ply from the center and the outside of the same ball and it works beautifully. Winding off onto another bobbin, even a makeshift one will not change the twist. No matter which end you look at your yarn it is what it is, either 'S' or 'Z' twist.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

if you wind off the bobbin before plying, you even out the twist. i would wind offall three for plying. makes for more evenly plied yarn.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

*In theory* (and I'm not sure how much this matters in real life) you want to ply the same direction as you spun - first spun, first plyed, first plyed, first knitted.

So you'd load up a bobbin, and then the end that is 'loose' is the 'last spun', right? So you wind off onto something else and then the loose end is the 'first spun'. 

If you do that for all 3 bobbins of 'source yarn' then when you ply, you are starting with the 'first spun' end of each bobbin. 

HONESTLY though I cannot imagine this making any difference whatsoever on the yarn spun by most ordinary mortals.  Just something I heard.

That said - winding off is fabulous. You can have as many things on the go as you like! My favourite cheap method is to stick a fat knitting needle in the chuck of your power drill and wind onto that. Then stick it through a shoebox a la shoebox kate and you're on your way for plying!

I spin on antique wheels and only have one bobbin for each one, so I do a lot of winding off.  I have a drill that stays by the wheels for just that purpose (though I did purpose build some spindle type things to wind onto).


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Thanks!!! I am sure it won't make much difference in what i am spinning now. I really need to get some pictures. Monday, I spun some really fat stuff - on purpose. I plied it today. What a mess! It takes a lot of bobbins to hold 2 strands of thick yarn. I plied some BFL that I tried to spin 'medium'.....I can honestly say that I have perfected spinning exact enough that all the thin parts end up plied together rather than plying thick and thin together to make an equal yarn....If hta tmakes sense. 

I worked on the long draw....it's beyond me. I worked on an inch-worm, or forward draw tonight. I think the tightness of the roving makes a huge difference in the draw to use.

I need to find a way to wind off the bobbins now so, tomorrow, I can ply this tiny stuff I spun tonight. I"m having a great time!!


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

i do long draw with top. the result might be different, not as fuzzy i would say, but it sure is long draw, at least in my book


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

A true woolen long draw, in theory, can only be done from a hand carded rolag.

However, I do supported long draw all the time using drum carded or machine prepared rovings. So long as they are fairly 'airy', it works fine - length of fibre makes a difference, too, as does type of fibre. 

There are a few fibres that will only cooperate if you do a true worsted spinning (like silk) - you HAVE to keep the twist from entering the drafting triangle, so you must draft forwards.

However, for pretty much every kind of wool I've spun, I do a backwards draw and use my forward hand to control how much of the twist is coming back into the drafting triangle, occasionally using the forward hand to tug forwards a bit if things are thickening up or there's a fat spot that needs an extra yank to thin it out.

Just keep trying, use both hands, don't grip your fibre supply, and don't be afraid to experiment.  I would encourage everyone to try some backwards draw, even when you are 'inchworming' - if you get in the habit of NEVER MOVING THE BACK HAND it can be really tough if you decide to attempt long draw. If you start off being able to move either hand, as the fibre needs, you have way more options and can adapt to the different fibre requirements more easily.

IMHO.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I started off moving the back hand to pull the fibers apart. I think I was getting way too much twist though - I wasn't able to get the timing down right to keep it from over twisting. It would twist back on itself as I released to get to to wind on the bobbin. Perhaps this is still a tension and brake issue? 

I find I can control the twist better if I inchworm forward.

I have noticed a bit difference in rovings. I haven't worked from an actual rolag yet. I bought the BFL already dyed. It was very hard to pull so I did a huge amount of predrafting. The pieces I bought from the MI store - carded was easy to draft but I ended up splitting it to help myself keep the yarn thinner. The 2nd piece was combed. Once I figured out that one end was very nice to work with. I mixed it with the combed fibers so the yarn is quite funky with fuzzy and smooth pieces here and there. 

The latest piece was given to me with my wheel. It is a much thinner and more airy piece. The staple is longer and it is very, very easy to draft - also easy to over twist. 

I washed my 3 finished yarns yesterday. Picture is coming. They are still drying. I had to untie one to spread it a bit. Hopefully, I can get a niddy noddy made today too.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Now that's interesting. I know what dye does to my hair without copius amounts of conditioner.....so I can see what it might do to wool. Do you ever condition wool to help it draft?


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

> It would twist back on itself as I released to get to to wind on the bobbin. Perhaps this is still a tension and brake issue?


That's a symptom of not enough takeup. The yarn is supposed to coil on itself if it is not under tension (assuming you are making singles for plying) but there should be enough tension between your hands and the wheel to prevent that from happening. I would suggest that you want more takeup when you are drafting this way.

When you do a slow inchworm draft, you want very very light takeup so it doesn't yank the fibre out of your hands and break it (well, you never want it to yank ...) but when you are doing a faster drafting (like, for example, supported long draw) you need more takeup so that when you have a length of singles ready to feed in and you release the tension on the yarn, it draws in at a nice, smooth, fairly quick pace.

You can adjust for the slower takeup by not moving your hands towards the orifice too quickly: remember, you can't stuff yarn into the orifice, you have to wait for it to be drawn in. Draft, get your twist ready, then when it's time to let it onto the bobbin, keep some tension on the yarn while allowing the bobbin to take up the singles. Let the bobbin determine the speed at which you move your hands towards the wheel - if you move too fast, your yarn has no tension at all and wind-on gets weird and wonky plus you get coily bits. 



> some dyes seem to make some fiber harder to draft -seems to me that BLUE always seems to be the hardest! I have no idea why -but it seems to stiffen and sticky-up the fiber.


Dyeing can felt the fibre to some extent - and some colours seem to be more prone to this in certain batches, it seems - I had one batt that was multicoloured and the red parts all wanted to stick together but other parts didn't. Apparently this is fairly common.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

frazzlehead said:


> . Let the bobbin determine the speed at which you move your hands towards the wheel - if you move too fast, your yarn has no tension at all and wind-on gets weird and wonky plus you get coily bits. ...............


thanks for that info. I think the above is what is happening. Then, if the bobbin isn't wound tightly could that make a problem with later take up? It seems to go just fine when I start a new bobbin, but pretty soon, the bobbin isn't winding. The coils around the bobbin are very loose sometimes. I will try going SLOWER.....

I am very bad at slow.... it's one reason to take up spinning - learn to sit back and relax.....


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

On many wheels, as the bobbin fills you have to adjust tension somewhat - a full bobbin is heavier than an empty one, so more oomph is needed to keep things going. 

The most important thing to remember is that you cannot stuff yarn into the orifice - you have to let the wheel determine when it is ready to take the yarn and just allow it to draw it from your fingers. It is more if a letting go than it is a pushing in.

There is a sermon in here, I think. something about healing occurring at it's own pace and how trying to rush through the process just makes a tangled mess ... Yeah, I think a lot when I spin!


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Sometimes a hair from the wool being spun can get caught on the hooks on the flyer. This happens a lot when you are spinning a really hairy wool, mohair, lincoln, romney, and others. When this happens the yarn will not feed onto the bobbin. You either need to stop and find the offending hair, not always easy to see. Of if you give a brisk and sharp draw back on the yarn, pulling it back off the bobbin and out of the orifice with a quick snap. It's not like you are pulling yards of yarn off, just an inch or so. That should snap that little hair and then you should be good to go again.

I know this isn't really what we are talking about but it occurred to me that it is something to be aware of if yarn isn't feeding on as it was.

Frazzle you are a woman of wisdom


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Frazzle....I promise I have never stuffed the yarn through the orifice....LOL!! I love the lessons we learn about life in the things we do.

I have gotten my hooks tangled in loops and in fuzz on the sides of the yarn. I have gotten the yarn over the flyer but under the orifice? I have gotten the yarn caught around the pulleys. I think I have managed to get yarn about every place possible. It's kind of fun to figure out what the problem is and solve it - especially when it isn't something I did! LOL!!!


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Hee I actually *have* stuffed yarn into the orifice ... but that was art yarn, and that's different.  I was making the coil and beehive stuff and some of my coils were too fat to go through on their own so I had to give them a shove and a yank ... so there are exceptions to every rule I guess!  I'll have to ponder how that works into my sermon!

Glad you are finding how things work - it is the best way to learn, really, to just 'see what happens' and then umm well, fix it.  How do you think I learned so much? You should SEE the mistakes I've made!


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Okay, I did turn the bobbin by hand to take up a knot I put to get past the part where my fingers were caught between plies in the yarn.....but that's NOT stuffing!! LOL!!!!

I'm really enjoying the total experience. The 3-ply yarn I have been working on was a flop. I think each ply was so differently twisted that the finished yarn twists and turns all over itself. So the next lesson to figure out is HOW to get the yarn all with the same twist. I got by with out it for 2 ply, but the 3....hmmmm....I will need to pay more attention.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

This may be a dumb question so I'm sorry if it insults you. That isn't my intent.

You did make sure all your singles were spun the same direction, and then when you plied them you spun them all in the oppisite direction? 

I know not thinking I've followed this basic rule of spining yarn. I'm so automatic I just sit and spin later realising I'd really messed everything up. Or I've splied about half of it gone away for a whileand come back to finihsh up only to start spinning it the wrong direction. It makes a huge mess of everything.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Marchie, I thought the same thing - if it's all coiled up, perhaps there's some over-energized singles in there, or it was plied in the same direction it was spun. It's easy to do.

Callieslamb, you can try running the yarn through the wheel and turning the opposite direction to 'undo' some of the overtwist, too ...


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I'm pretty sure it all spun the same direction....but nothing's a given around here. Is there a way I can tell? Magnifying glass? I took each bobbin and the drill and spun them off onto a dowel. At first, the dowels were too loose in their holes so I applied some tape to them. That really slowed down the process and it was MUCH easier after that. My fingers didn't get twists on each side. I went ahead and off-loaded all 3 bobbins to the dowels. Should I have left the plied yarn on the bobbin for a while? I took it right off so I would work on consistant twist in the yarn. 

I do try to undo, but the whole piece would have to be undone. I also got some new string for the wheel. I had DH tie it since his hands are used to that kind of tiny work. He was able to get it much tighter so I have a lot more distance to tighten the tension now. At first- the yarn was being yanked out of my hands. I am learning a lot about my wheel. Luckily, I had a huge ball of rovings that I am playing with. It seems to have a staple length of about 5 inches. It's loose and easy to draft. 

This week-it's time to clean my fleeces.....and order carders. I was thinking maybe wait for the FF for carders though.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Okay when you spin, the direction you turn the drive wheel is what determines the direction of your twist. So when you spin your singles, you need to make sure if you are going to ply them all together in the end, that you have your wheel moving in the same direction every time you sit and spin. Then, when you ply them together, you have to make sure you are spinning the wheel in the opposite direction it was turning when you spun the singles. Does that make sense?


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

yes, it makes perfect sense. I planned on doing just that....maybe I didn't. I did those 3 to ply together pretty fast and right after I plied a couple of the ones I put in the picture. I could have gotten one strand off. Just having an inconsistent twist wouldn't make it twist all over itself? 

I wound the yarn around my arm. When I took it off - it twisted up like those twist skeins you can buy. More than likely - I was driving the wrong direction.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Could just be a case of over twist too. 

I'll be there soon, in less than a week


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I can't wait. It will be fun to meet you! Good luck with the driving and moving. Let me know if you need some help. I'm available almost any day except for the FF in Allegan.


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## LFmenagerie (Mar 29, 2007)

frazzlehead said:


> *In theory* (and I'm not sure how much this matters in real life) you want to ply the same direction as you spun - first spun, first plyed, first plyed, first knitted.
> 
> So you'd load up a bobbin, and then the end that is 'loose' is the 'last spun', right? So you wind off onto something else and then the loose end is the 'first spun'.
> 
> ...


Can we get a "Like" button! 
I am not a fan of winding off but also have and will be using old wheels that I only have one bobbin for. Is there a utube of winding a bobbin this way? I'd like to see it (to apply the method, too).


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