# Could This Be Elderberry?



## TheMrs

I'm still discovering what all is on our property. This comes from a smallish tree that's bent over a bit. It looks to be intertwined with some other scrub trees on the edge of the wood patch. If it is elderberry I'd like to use it, but I'm scared that I'm getting into something poisonous instead of beneficial. Thanks for any input you might have!

Oh...we're located in Southeastern Missouri.


----------



## mistletoad

Not elderberry. Might be a grape but hard to tell which, if any, of the foliage belongs with the fruit.


----------



## Use Less

Nope, the stuff in bunches is wild grape. I'm surprised you couldn't smell the grape scent. The one ovoid leaf looks like some sort of fruit tree, possibly wild cherry/chokecherry. The fruits for those are long gone. Can't quite understand the size of the grape berries, though they look bigger than most of the wild grape found here in upstate NY. Yours could just be bigger because it's milder, or maybe you have a volunteer with a domesticated grape parent. Wild grapes benefit from a light frost, but it looks like many of the berries have fallen, so you probably can't wait. Search the preserving forum for help using wild grape. Elderberries set fruits in umbrils, which look like little umbrellas about the size of an extended hand. The plants are bushy with with many stems. The individual berries are quite small. It would be late to find elderberries on the bush now. Sue


----------



## Ray

It looks like I might see a grape leaf in one photo, they might be what we call possum grapes or wild grapes. they dont get very big, larger than a pea. be sure to see that they are grapes before eating, poison ivy vine has berries too. I've been around them all my life and can easily tell by looking in person but so easily in a photo. 
Elderberry grows on its own stalk with the berrys growing in spread out heads kinda like a queen ann's lace head, only they can get ten ft. tall and berry heads up to a foot across. best wishes, ray


----------



## Ellen West

This doesn't look like an elderberry blossom/fruit to me. They're formed more like a fractal - the cluster begins with two major stems with three below, next divergence smaller, with the blossoms/fruit in a shallow plane at the end with a definite bloom on the fruit. An panicle that looks more like an umbel. A good website is elderberries.com


----------



## Nature_Lover

Are you sure that's tree fruit?
It looks to me like there's a vine climbing through that tree.

I have the book on Missouri vines, and if you tell me which county you're in, and get a pic of a couple of intact leaves off that vine that the grapes are on, I can tell you which grape you have there. (Front and back of a leaf/leaves and if there are any that are nontypical grape leaf shaped. With a ruler or a dollar bill for scale)

From the book, it looks like seven species of grapes are found in SE MO, with a very specific distribution map (by county) for each grape.

Some grapes are bitter until after the first frost, that might be why they're still hanging there and no critters have harvested them yet. You might have to bag them to protect them until they're ripe.

Also, are they growing anywhere near water? a creek or spring? Do any of them have a waxy coating, or a thin white coating (like blueberries sometimes have)?

Hah, my mouth is watering, just looking at your photos, lol.


----------



## TheMrs

Nature_Lover said:


> Are you sure that's tree fruit?
> It looks to me like there's a vine climbing through that tree.
> 
> I have the book on Missouri vines, and if you tell me which county you're in, and get a pic of a couple of intact leaves off that vine that the grapes are on, I can tell you which grape you have there. (Front and back of a leaf/leaves and if there are any that are nontypical grape leaf shaped. With a ruler or a dollar bill for scale)
> 
> From the book, it looks like seven species of grapes are found in SE MO, with a very specific distribution map (by county) for each grape.
> 
> Some grapes are bitter until after the first frost, that might be why they're still hanging there and no critters have harvested them yet. You might have to bag them to protect them until they're ripe.
> 
> Also, are they growing anywhere near water? a creek or spring? Do any of them have a waxy coating, or a thin white coating (like blueberries sometimes have)?
> 
> Hah, my mouth is watering, just looking at your photos, lol.


You're absolutely right! I went back out there today to get more pictures and it definitely is a vine growing through the tree. Most of the leaves are part of the tree, but I did manage to find a few that were still attached to the vine. Here's what they look like:










I squeezed one of the grapes and a small seed came out. I squeezed another one and two seeds came out of it. There was no noticable "grape" smell at all.










Here's what the small tree looks like from a distance. The vine is so thick that it has drastically bent the little tree over.










Also, there is a small (right now, dry) creekbed off to the right of this photo. The creek runs through the edge of the woods when we've had heavy rains.

After re-reading your post I noticed that you wanted a size-comparison of the leaf and a picture of its backside. I'm sorry I should've paid more attention. I can go out and get more pictures if necessary.

I really do appreciate your offer to identify it for me. If it's useful, then I'd like to make use of it, but I'm always afraid I'm getting into something harmful that just looks like it'd be good to eat! I'll pm you my county.

Thank you so much for your help!


----------



## Nature_Lover

The photos are great, we're lucky to find any leaves this late in the season.
Ok, so using the book with your photo and location, it's narrowed down to four. 
If the back of the leaves are not white, then it's either:
frost grape vitis vulpina
or
riverbank grape vitis riparia
both have fruit that's about 1/4" thick

Frost grape will be tart until frost
riverbank grape will be sweet if mature

if the back of the leaves are white, then it could be either summer grape or winter grape

if you can find a leaf that is fully intact, including the leaf margins at the stem attachment (I guess that is the telling attribute) then you don't have to taste a grape to see if it's tart or sweet

This book is titled "Shrubs and Woody Vines of Missouri"

The book I would recommend as your first go-to book would be (my favorite) "Missouri Wildflowers" it's amazing!
Just watch out, you'll be spending every spare minute identifying wildflowers, or wishing you had brought your book with you!

You can get either of these books from the Missouri Department of Conservation, at a nature store in a nature center, or online at mdc.mo.gov

The websites I use the most (you might want to do your own comparison of those grapes)

search by color at
http://www.missouriwildflowerguide.com/

this site has the most pictures (multiple photos of any given plant) and a neat community
http://davesgarden.com/

all plants, not just wildflowers are here, and you can search by flower color and/or leaf characteristics.
http://www.missouriplants.com/

once you have a tentative ID, these have the most plants in their databases
http://www.wildflower.org/
http://plants.usda.gov/checklist.html
the usda site has links at the bottom of each plant profile page

this is a good page of links, too
http://www.uswildflowers.com/stateref.php?State=MO

My land is in Jefferson County about 15 miles off of hwy 21.
Howdy Neighbor! 
ok, it's a stretch, but hey, we're in the same quadrant, anyway.

Enjoy those grapes!


----------



## moonwolf

grape leaves for sure. I've seen my grape vines growing up into 50 ft. of the spruce trees growing next to them.


----------



## Ravenlost

I'm jealous! It was so dry here that our wild grapes didn't make much. Time for you to make some wild grape jelly!


----------



## coso

That's what we call possum grapes. Mom makes grape jelly with them. You have to find them before the ***** and possums do !!!!!


----------

