# Retained dead lamb



## Blossomgapfarm

We have lost two ewes this year (out of about 10) from birthing problems - our first year to loose a ewe in labor. We have had several very big lambs this year for what our girls usually have.

I have a ewe that started bleeding yesterday, due anytime but I don't have a breeding date. It was red, obvious bleeding then stopped last night. We have moved her to a pen type jug, close to the house. This morning she has a yucky brownish discharge. She lets me handle her quite a bit. I can feel the baby inside her but there is NO movement from it AT ALL. I have tried to feel movement several times and there is nothing. Normally, this far along I can feel obvious movement. I am 99% sure the baby is dead. 

She is eating good, pee and poop normal, normal temp. No other signs of labor.

How will labor change if the baby is dead? Once she starts having contractions, anything I can do to encourage them along? Anything I can do for her, watch for? 

Emotionally, I would love to take her to the vet but financially, it is not really an option. She is an older ewe that I don't just want to loose. My vet won't give an opinion or prescribe anything without seeing the animal.


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## LibertyWool

You are stuck between a rock and a hard place. You could induce labor, but that requires drugs from you vet. And your vet won't prescribe without a visit. Maybe your vet would not charge a farm call if you brought her into the vet office, and only charge for time/materials (My vet is $2.00 per min, so that can still add up quickly). My vet will sometimes split the farmcall between two farms that are close, so you might ask about that also.


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## PNP Katahdins

Do you have any nice neighbors with livestock birthing experience, preferably someone with small hands?

You might want to switch rams after this is over, and review your feeding program. I think you have already mentioned those possibilities.

Good luck and I hope the ewe does okay, but she needs your help.

Peg


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## Goatsandsheep

You may try ask a vet a pipestone vet. I now a couple of people who have called for help, but I don't have any personal experience with them. Here a link http://www.pipevet.com//pipevet/subpage.aspx?PipeVet=WebPointID=25&NewsStoryID=0&


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## plowjockey

May not be a good ideal to leave a dead lamb inside the mom. Infections can set in pretty quick, since thing are probably broken inside.

You may have to pull the dead lamb. Did it last year, but lost the ewe, possible because I waited too long. She went into shock and had developed infections. I did not have antibiotics, or anything to treat shock on hand.

Just remember. In and immediately down, not straight in.

Good luck.


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## Shoupie

First off you need to find a better vet, one that understands that livestock are not pets and that the bottom line often has to come first. Call around chances are your vet's not the only large animal vet around.

You can start helping her now by feeding her rasberry leaves and putting mollases in her water. 

You can do this by yourself its called an embryotomy, though I strongly suggest you have a more experienced shepherd or vet to guide you through this because it can get rather hairy unexpectedly. If she doesn't go into labor relativly quickly you need to get some oxytocin from a vet and induce her. That thing shouldn't be rotting in her any longer than it has to be. Let her try to deliver it on her own before you step in, but if nothing happens over the course of an hour its time to go in. Glove up and determine the lambs position, make sure to use a lot of lubrication, liquid soap works fine, and only pull on the lamb with her contractions. A lot of the time you can help just by providing extra lubrication and pulling one shoulder through at a time. If you can find it I suggest getting a lambing snare its a very usefull tool. 

If you find that the lamb is deformed or just too huge to pass through you should determine weither you are comfortable enough with the situation to perform a embryotomy as it is a dangerous and difficult procedure and should ideally be performed either by or under the guidance of a vet or experienced herdsman. An embryotomy entails using obsetric wire to cut the dead lamb in to smaller and easier to remove portions. After you've gotten the thing out you need to give her the uterine bolus while her cervix is still soft and dialated, and start her course of antibiotics a b12 shot to help her rebuild blood cells and continue with the rasberry leaves and mollases in the water. I wish you the best of luck with this ewe.


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## Ross

Its time to go in and see if she's dilated. No oxytocin unless she is. You might not need it anyhow. As said lots and lots of lube and try to pull the lamb head first and out. This can be a seriously gross job. It smells bad the lambs pull apart, they're dry hairy and don't move well, ........... just put it all aside in your mind and get on with the task. I think you'll have better luck laying her down for this and you will have to watch for a uterine prolapse (another reason to be reluctant to use oxytocin) Once you have all of the lamb/s out go back in and try to feel around pushing the uterus back where it belongs. You can have it partially inverted and then the ewe is in serious trouble. I had a vet who recomended using a beer bottle to extend your reach..... its a bigger place than you'd think! If you don't have a bolus you can use injectable PenG or even LA200 etc. but keep her on it for 5 days. Good luck!


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## Blossomgapfarm

Thank you all for your suggestions. My vet, for the first time, prescribed a med without seeing the animal (of course, that means that he knows me enough by now that he trusts my judgment!). He gave me 3 shots of oxytocin to try to induce her. The first shot started contractions almost immediately but they tapered off after about 50 min so I gave the second shot at 1 hr. Contractions again immediately. They stopped after about 30 min. 

I went in but she is so small, I can only get 3 fingers in, and it is tight. After several minutes, I managed to get 4 fingers in but I don't understand what I am feeling. All I can guess is that she is not dilated at all as I can not find any opening what so ever. I can go back about 3-4 inches and meet a "dead end" so to speak. And I have the smallest hands in the family - usually wear kid size gloves. I tried "feathering" or stroking inside the vulva to stimulate contractions, which it did but they stopped as soon as I removed my hand. I did go ahead and give the 3rd shot as we are desperate at this point to get them out. It did not stimulate contractions at all.

She is still eating, drinking, peeing and pooping normal. I think her belly hurts because she does not want me touching it. She did expel a lot of gas with the contractions, which struck me as odd.

I have pulled animals before - dogs and goats. Never had to pull a dead baby though. I used lube and wish I could get inside to get them out, but no go. Her discharge is still dark, looks like melted chocolate, not a good smell. No movement from inside, of course. My vet had no hesitation in saying that he believes she has lost the babies and we need to get them out. Short of a c-section, I guess it is just a waiting game. 

I will probably get more oxy tomorrow as the vet is open in the morning if she has not had them by then. 

I have been giving her molasses water, red raspberry tea and I started her on LA-200 as that is what I have on hand.


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## Ross

If she's not diliated all the oxytocin the world isn't going to help! You need to lube your fingers and work to stretch the cervix until your hand wil pass. Or get a C section.


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## cmonkey

Ross said:


> If she's not diliated all the oxytocin the world isn't going to help!



Boy, I wish there were OBs reading this board.

Sorry for the trouble. Raspberry does have good effects on the human uterus, so I wouldn't hesitate to try it. Hope it all works out okay.


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## thequeensblessing

Ross is correct. All the contractions in the world won't help her if her cervix isn't softened, and thinned out, and oxytocin only causes contractions that can help the cervix to dilate if and only if it is already thinned out and soft.


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## Blossomgapfarm

She feels very thinned out but not dialated. My vet was hoping the contractions caused by the oxy would dialate her for delivery. I know that lytalyse can be used to induce goats and cows, can it be used on sheep? Anything else the vet can prescribe that I should talk to him about? I plan to be at their office again when it opens in the morning if she has not delivered.


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## cmonkey

I wonder if evening primrose oil would work. If you're ready for labor, it can be enough to soften up the cervix. Full of prostaglandins, apparently. Health food stores have it.


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## Ross

The only thing I know of at this point is physical intervention, its not easy or pleasant work. By all means add a little molassas to the ewe's water and even some electrolites to prep the ewe for a long ordeal. You wouldn't want her fed up on grain though she's going to be imobile for a time and might bloat. You have to work at it and I mean work, all the while keeping in mind you're dealing with a living animal you neither want to hurt nor distress her beyond what is required. Pulling dead lambs can take hours, of careful manipulation..... quite frankly contractions just get in the way and exhaust the ewe (and you) The dead lamb will have lost its covering sack and the whole thing will be drying up so its not getting pushed out now. Its nice to have help so you can rest while your partner works for a while. My wife teams up with me for his horrible job.... she goes first cause she's got smaller hands. That said you should always be making progress, 2 fingers to start should be 3 after half and hour max and four in the same or less, your whole hand soon after...... and if the job is not progressing you need the vet to do a C section because you're not winning and the ewe is paying for it, or paying for nothing.


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## Blossomgapfarm

We are heading to the vet to get some more oxy and hopefully some lute. What is the dose of Lutalyse? 

I am going to discuss what is going on and what I am feeling with him and prepair for a bit more forceful manipulation of her cervix. I have my daughter with me and if I can get her openined up a bit, she can releave me. I did manage to get my hand all the way inside her last night without too much difficulty so that was progress, just wish her cervix was open. 

I am also going to discuss a c-section with the vet in case she is not able to tolerate my physical intervention though I really don't want to go that way. She is not in distress right now but I don't want to wait for her to get septic either.


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## Ross

Your vet will prescribe the Lute dosage if he/she thinks its a good idea. When I say work your hand in I meant past the cervix. You're going to have to pull worse out so if your hand can't get in nothing is coming out. Check the ewe's temp, (102-103) to be sure she's not getting septic. The longer you wait the harder the job gets.


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## catahoula

First let me say I'm sorry you are having problems with your ewes this year. I've lost a few sheep, and a few lambs myself. I guess it happens, but when it does I can't help but blame myself. 

If I were in your situation I would weigh the cost of the vet versus the cost of a new ewe. Consider the possibility that your ewe may have difficulty giving birth forever.

I usually give ewes two chances, if they don't produce or are poor mothers I cull them.

Good luck.


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## Blossomgapfarm

The vet prescribed the Lute - gave it to her about 10:00 am. She is showing even more discharge but I have not gone in to work with her yet. We are finishing up our chores for the day so I can devote the evening with her and will head out after posting this. 

I know I have to get past the cervix. I have pulled a lot of lambs and kids and even had a hand in delivering puppies but have never dealt with dead ones before. I am hoping that more discharge is a good sign that she is starting to open up a bit. Her temp is still normal and she is still acting normal.

The vet did not give a good prognosis for a c-section. He said it would cost $350-400 (and as harsh as it sounds, her monitary value is not that high.) I would consider it if I knew she would be in increadible pain otherwise and that she would survive. The vet (the best livestock vet in the area) said that in his experience, ewes don't do the best with sections to begin with and when the babies are dead, the chances of infection are impossible to avoid and our chance of loosing her would be very high. 

To give the ewe credit she has never had problem one and is one of the sweetest girls ever. I go out and sit with her and she nibbles at my fingers, lets me run my hands all over her and is so easy to work with. This is the first year we have lost any ewes in labor (including our biggest, a 3 year old ewe) or lost kids at birth. The ram is going to be Easter dinner.


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## hintonlady

I can tell you with some authority that in humans, the most valued pet of all, doctors often allow a week to 10 days on strong antibiotics and wait for nature to takes it's course. 90% of the time things take their own time to get started and resolve themselves. Only in rare occasions or due to stress is intervention required. 

If there is no damage internally yet I wouldn't chance messing around lest you may cause some. IF there is already internal damage there isn't much you could do anyhow.

If the lamb is too big or stuck is the only reason I would jump in. Otherwise her body will handle it naturally. It's scary to wait and have faith in the process but realistically her body is made to have lambs. Nature knows what it is doing. I would guess that her lack of dialation is a sign her body isn't ready yet.

EVERY time you introduce your hands into her for a check, gloves or not you are also introducing the possibilty of infection. Unless you are ready for action or think something has changed try to resist the urge to double check.


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## chamoisee

So, how long has she been in labor? If it's more than a day or two, I think you should just put her down, especially if she's developed a fever...unless you are willing to break yourself in half to save her. This kind of birth is difficult and involves immediate, hard core intervention, and it is pretty disgusting. I have handled two of these, one with a goat and one with a ewe. The ewe was infected by the time the owner called me, and she died after I got the lamb out. The doe suffered a great deal and needed a lot of TLC, antibiotics, etc after I got the kid out (and I got it out the same night I found out it was in there), and after that, she could never be AI'd or kid naturally again...scarring in the cervix or vagina. 

This is just my opinion, but Ross is right. Nothing but a Csection or working that cervix for an hour or two is going to work. Once the cervix is open, it's going to be a nasty, difficult, very smelly job, and she might die anyway. 

So I would either intervene right now or put her down right now. She is suffering.


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## Blossomgapfarm

She is not in labor - yet. Hopefully the lute will fix that. 

If she is suffering, she does not know it. She is still up, eating, drinking, pee and pooping normal. Coming over for head scratches and to drink her tea. Even still being nice to me.

I am not going to put her down just because it is going to be disgusting or be hard work. 

I would not let any of my animals be in labor that long without some kind of intervention, either pulling, which I have quite a bit of experience with, c-section, or putting her down.

Headed back out. Hope I have a good update in the morning (well, as good as possible under these circumstances.)


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## chamoisee

On a scale of 1-10, how bad does the discharge smell? 

I should have asked the question differently...when the kids/lambs are dead they don't go into labor the way they should, because that cervix doesn't always dilate. 

At any rate, keep an eye on her temp, good luck with her, and you might consider giving her antibiotics now...just in case there is a dead lamb.


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## eieiomom

Just wondering how things are going with your ewe ?


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## Shannonmcmom

I was curious about the update as well.

I had to do this a couple of years ago. The vet told me that after the baby was pulled I needed to check for a twin. Then she said to fill up a 2L pop bottle with warm water and add a bit of betadine until it looked like a weak tea. Then she said I needed to squeeze the liquid up into the ewe's vagina and hopefully get it into her uterus.

I did that and the ewe recovered just fine.


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## countrygal

I am new here and curious as to how this turned out. I hope it all turned out all right for the ewe and for you.


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## kirsten

Please give us an update!! I am very interested in how this turned out and what you ended up doing.


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## Ross

We have to remember that follow ups are optional no matter how curious we are. People get busy and don't remember to post a follow up. Sometimes things don't go well and people just want to move on. We have to respect that.


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## kirsten

I know. That would be really difficult for me. I would honestly call the vet to do that myself. That was why I was really impressed with her doing that herself.


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