# Not talking about reform. The word dismantle is intentionally different than reform



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

CNN’s “New Day,” Host Alisyn Camerota asked, “What if, in the middle of the night, my home is broken into? Who do I call?”

Minneapolis City Council President Lisa Bender said, “Yes, I mean, I hear that loud and clear from a lot of my neighbors, and myself, too, and I know that that comes from a place of privilege. Because for those of us for whom the system is working, I think we need to step back and imagine what it would feel like to already live in that reality where calling the police may mean more harm is done.”


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

This is insane. And in a few months the far left will be gnashing their teeth and wailing about Trump winning the election because of another crazy idea like this.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Well it seems ms bender does not understand that she is not and has not been doing her job very well. No need to break or remove what working ok. Need to fix the parts that do not.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

She does realize that part of the problem there is the city government? 

And who is part of this government?

Oh yeah, she is.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> She does realize that part of the problem there is the city government?
> 
> And who is part of this government?
> 
> Oh yeah, she is.


Maybe the residents of Minneapolis should consider a recall election.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I am looking forward to watching what happens in the first city that “dismantles” their police force.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I am looking forward to watching what happens in the first city that “dismantles” their police force.


That seems un-zen


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I am looking forward to watching what happens in the first city that “dismantles” their police force.


I'm not but it should be a wake up call for sure.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

I just hope it is in a place far, far away......from me.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Previews of coming attractions:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/chicago-...n-60-years-with-18-murders-in-24-hours-report
"Bloody Chicago recorded 18 murders on May 31, making it the city’s deadliest day in 60 years.

The dubious milestone was reached on a day Chicago was roiled by another round of protests and looting following the Memorial Day death of George Floyd in police custody in Minneapolis.

The 18 deaths tallied by the University of Chicago Crime Lab made May 31, 2020 the single-most violent day in six decades, the Chicago Sun-Times reported Monday. The Crime Lab numbers go back only to 1961."

On May 29 and May 30, there were seven murders. In a city with an international reputation for crime, the 25 murders on those three days made for the most violent weekend in Chicago’s modern history, according to the paper.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Previews of coming attractions:
> https://www.foxnews.com/us/chicago-...n-60-years-with-18-murders-in-24-hours-report
> "Bloody Chicago recorded 18 murders on May 31, making it the city’s deadliest day in 60 years.
> 
> ...


Black Lives Matter


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

So, she said that anyone who wants to keep the police is acting privileged, and all of this is somehow their fault. Maybe instead of getting rid of the police, they should just get all new leadership.

Just what do they think is going to happen ten minutes after they send all of the police home? 

I think they should come up with a new law for leadership like this. First degree felony stupid.


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

There won't be any problems. 

The social workers will take care of it. All those tweaker, thieves and rambunctious kids need is a good talking to about their future.

Maybe they just need someone to suggest they go to college. That will do it.

Maybe the drug dealers just need to be told gently and with understanding that Walmart is hiring. They probably don't even know about that.

Maybe, the child porn pushers and users just need to be told they shouldn't do that. Maybe they just need a hobby or to have community centers that allow them to rent tools so they can learn how to work on their vans that they live in down by the river.

Yep. It will be awesome.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Wonder if those social workers and such that know better will expect help from the police when things go wrong.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I think I figured out this defund thing. It basically means tear down what now exists and create something under the control of radical forces.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

This is the most coherent explanation I have seen on what defund means (which is a misnomer).

https://www.joincampaignzero.org/#vision

There are a lot of good ideas in the list, many of which have been piloted in different places. I don't agree with 100% of the planks, but I am onboard with about 80%.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

By The New York Times | Source: Yahoo News/YouGov Poll


Yet Minneapolis is committed to defunding the police. I expect other cities will do the same.

Defund does not mean defund. It means tear down and remake.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

HDRider said:


> I think I figured out this defund thing. It basically means tear down what now exists and create something under the control of radical forces.


If they ''ever'' get it done it will make Waco look like a trip to Disney World!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

The Paw said:


> This is the most coherent explanation I have seen on what defund means (which is a misnomer).
> 
> https://www.joincampaignzero.org/#vision
> 
> There are a lot of good ideas in the list, many of which have been piloted in different places. I don't agree with 100% of the planks, but I am onboard with about 80%.


Thank you.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

The Paw said:


> This is the most coherent explanation I have seen on what defund means (which is a misnomer).
> 
> https://www.joincampaignzero.org/#vision
> 
> There are a lot of good ideas in the list, many of which have been piloted in different places. I don't agree with 100% of the planks, but I am onboard with about 80%.


 I knew it was full of manure after reading the very first category ...


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> I knew it was full of manure after reading the very first category ...


What makes you think it's "manure"? Is there anything you agree with in campaign zero?


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> What makes you think it's "manure"? Is there anything you agree with in campaign zero?


I'd say 98% of it is garbage....


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

The Paw said:


> This is the most coherent explanation I have seen on what defund means (which is a misnomer).
> 
> https://www.joincampaignzero.org/#vision
> 
> There are a lot of good ideas in the list, many of which have been piloted in different places. I don't agree with 100% of the planks, but I am onboard with about 80%.


So basically a national police force, run and funded by the federal government. What could possibly go wrong?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Where is festus when ya need him?


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

muleskinner2 said:


> So basically a national police force, run and funded by the federal government. What could possibly go wrong?





Couple towns near me don't have town police, but the state police have a presence there.
So replacing one with another seems to be what'll happen.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

muleskinner2 said:


> So basically a *national police force, run and funded by the federal government.* What could possibly go wrong?


Even on the face of that, it is absolutely absurd.

I am tired of these "do something, do anything" radicals.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Research Camden New Jersey and how they did this. It was a success.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

muleskinner2 said:


> So basically a national police force, run and funded by the federal government. What could possibly go wrong?


I think you may have followed the wrong link. I didn't see anything like what you describe in the campaignzero platform. I saw a lot of policy options that could be implemented at a state, municipal or departmental level. I guess some of them anticipate a federal funding role, but it would be unusual if it didn't.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> Research Camden New Jersey and how they did this. It was a success.


https://patch.com/new-jersey/cherryhill/heres-most-dangerous-city-new-jersey


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

https://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Camden-New-Jersey.html


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> https://patch.com/new-jersey/cherryhill/heres-most-dangerous-city-new-jersey


True. It was on that list before they changed the police force and still is. Going beyond that the crime rate has dropped since they "Defunded"


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> I knew it was full of manure after reading the very first category .


I made it this far:


> *We can live in a world where the police don't kill people*
> by limiting police *interventions*


The best way to "limit police interventions" is to behave properly.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> True. It was on that list before they changed the police force and still is. Going beyond that the crime rate has dropped since they "Defunded"


Did not look like it dropped looking at what @Kiamichi Kid posted.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Going beyond that the *crime rate has dropped since they "Defunded"*


Got data to support that?

*Camden, NJ Crime Report, 2020 - HomeSnacks*
https://www.homesnacks.net/nj/camden-crime
According to the most recent data from the FBI, the total crime rate in Camden is 4,671.9 per 100,000 people. That's *81.90% higher than the national rate* of 2,568.4 per 100,000 people and 189.64% higher than the New Jersey total crime rate of 1,613.0 per 100,000 people.

*Camden, NJ Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout*
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/nj/camden/crime
*Mar 30, 2020* · NeighborhoodScout's analysis also reveals that Camden's rate for property crime is 30 per one thousand population. This makes Camden a place where there is an *above average chance of becoming a victim of a property crime*, when compared to all other communities in America of all population sizes.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I am looking forward to watching what happens in the first city that “dismantles” their police force.


I'll take that one. I have seen it in Jackson, MS and other cities.


The police department is renewed and becomes 100% all black---and the street policemen have their hands tied by the city administrators.
Then crime goes through the roof and the police and judges do zero to stop it.
Then the decent, law abiding blacks and all whites move out to the suburbs---making the situation in the city even worse.
Then the businesses move out of town and the tax base goes to near zero.
Then the city administrators start asking the state and Feds to pay for urban renewal, fixing streets and water and sewage systems, etc., and they do. But the contracts go to most favored friends and family of the city administrators; and the work does not get done.
So the city administrators start asking the state and Feds for more money.
And the process repeats over and over with crime going up, infrastructure going down, and outside government bailout money going into the pockets of insiders.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

I doubt that police forces will be dismantled or de-funded in an extreme way as some people think this means. A restructuring and definite retraining of the police forces is now inevitable. The racism and needless brutality has to be weeded out. A lot of the problems started when community policing was stopped and in cities where it has been re-introduced (all over the world) the crime rates have dropped by 40 to 60 % including in US cities.

The first step IMO would be the demilitarization of the police forces. Specialized police units for anti- terror or swat (special weapons and tactics) will still exist but with better training hopefully.

No one likes taxes so moving some funds around will undoubtedly happen but since so much has been ignored and let to fester improvements to mental health care, child welfare, education and eliminating poverty can only help to decrease crime. Also as important is an overhaul of the judicial system. And the system of private for profit incarceration.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

NRA_guy said:


> I'll take that one. I have seen it in Jackson, MS and other cities.
> 
> 
> The police department is renewed and becomes 100% all black---and has the street policemen have their hands tied by the city administrators.
> ...


Not doubting your word here as to results, but that seems like a poor solution.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

NRA_guy said:


> I'll take that one. I have seen it in Jackson, MS and other cities.
> 
> 
> The police department is renewed and becomes 100% all black---and has the street policemen have their hands tied by the city administrators.
> ...


Memphis too


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

emdeengee said:


> I doubt that police forces will be dismantled or de-funded in an extreme way as some people think this means. A restructuring and definite retraining of the police forces is now inevitable. The racism and needless brutality has to be weeded out. A lot of the problems started when community policing was stopped and in cities where it has been re-introduced (all over the world) the crime rates have dropped by 40 to 60 % including in US cities.
> 
> The first step IMO would be the demilitarization of the police forces. Specialized police units for anti- terror or swat (special weapons and tactics) will still exist but with better training hopefully.
> 
> No one likes taxes so moving some funds around will undoubtedly happen but since so much has been ignored and let to fester improvements to mental health care, child welfare, education and eliminating poverty can only help to decrease crime. Also as important is an overhaul of the judicial system. And the system of private for profit incarceration.


My power is not reading minds.

To quote Council President Lisa Bender

"We committed to dismantling policing as we know it in the city of Minneapolis and to rebuild with our community a new model of public safety that actually keeps our community safe," Council President Lisa Bender told CNN.

"The idea of having no police department is certainly not in the short term," she added.

City council members had previously said they would take steps to dismantle the police department, including Bender, who tweeted earlier this week, "Yes. We are going to dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department and replace it with a transformative new model of public safety."

Jeremiah Ellison, city councilman for Ward 5, tweeted a similar message Thursday, writing, "We are going to dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department. And when we're done, we're not simply gonna glue it back together. We are going to dramatically rethink how we approach public safety and emergency response."
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/us/george-floyd-protests-sunday/index.html​
There are all kinds of weasel words in their statements, but the word dismantle seems plain. Are you saying a rose is no loner a rose if we call it a tulip?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The United Teachers Los Angeles (UTLA), representing teachers and support staff in the Los Angeles Unified School District (LAUSD), called Monday for the elimination of the 400-member police force protecting schools in the district.

The _Los Angeles Times_ reported that the teachers’ union made the announcement at an event with Black Lives Matter leaders, and called the move a step toward dismantling “white supremacy”:

Leaders of United Teachers Los Angeles said Monday they support a movement to eliminate the Los Angeles School Police Department, a force of about 400 that serves the L.A. Unified School District and accounts for about $70 million of the district’s $7.9 billion budget.

“We have to dismantle white supremacy. We must … defund the police and bring in the mental health services that our students need,” said Cecily Myart-Cruz, the incoming president of UTLA, which represents about 30,000 teachers, nurses, counselors and other staff in the school district.

The union leadership endorsement and public announcement during a labor news conference with Black Lives Matter Los Angeles bring an influential voice to what is certain to be an intense debate over school safety.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-08/defund-school-police-utla-blm


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

It seems to me that the call to defund the police is a muddled admission of failure.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ce-chief-says-crime-went-disbanded-force.html

"The former chief of the disbanded police Camden Police Department in New Jersey told on Tuesday how crime in the town went down after the department was torn up and replaced by one in which cops held neighborhood barbecues and went door-to-door to introduce themselves to residents in a bid to win their trust. 

Camden got rid of its police department in 2013 after becoming known as one of the most violent towns in the US. A new police department replaced it and officers were taught to focus less on arrest quotas and more on making the community feel safe.

Since then, crime has gone down drastically; there were 67 murders in 2012 compared to 25 in 2019, and 65 excessive force complaints in 2012 compared to just three in 2019. "


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ce-chief-says-crime-went-disbanded-force.html
> 
> "The former chief of the disbanded police Camden Police Department in New Jersey told on Tuesday how crime in the town went down after the department was torn up and replaced by one in which cops held neighborhood barbecues and went door-to-door to introduce themselves to residents in a bid to win their trust.
> 
> ...


Did it say how many of the old force rejoined the new force?

It sounds like defund the old police means, fund a new police.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Did it say how many of the old force rejoined the new force?
> 
> It sounds like defund the old police means, fund a new police.


That is what they did. Each old police officer had to fill out 40 to 50 pages of paperwork, take tests etc. They weeded out the bad cops and those not willing to invest in a new reformed way of policing.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> That is what they did. Each old police officer had to fill out 40 to 50 pages of paperwork, take tests etc. They weeded out the bad cops and those not willing to invest in a new reformed way of policing.


And that makes perfect sense (that is a lot of paperwork). There should be a process in place that hires the right kind of person... Just as there should be a process to fire the wrong kind of person... Being a policeman is an awesome responsibility.

Police should be viewed affectionately and respected in the community. They should not be feared or held in contempt. A cop walking a beat is a good thing, if he is the right guy. Sponsoring boys and girls clubs, BBQs, games, social interactions are all good. I hope that is where this is headed. They are muddling the message.

Every black boy and girls should grow up wanting to be a policeman.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Those not bothering to research what they mean and others who find fault in everything are the ones muddling the message.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

When I was a kid, we had 7 mom and pop groceries in my town, and 1 cop. Now there are 3 big chain groceries and it takes 7 cops to make a traffic stop.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Those not bothering to research what they mean and others who find fault in everything are the ones muddling the message.


I have read extensively on what the Minneapolis people are saying. They have said flat out they are not reforming the police, but rather they are going to defund the police.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

whiterock said:


> When I was a kid, we had 7 mom and pop groceries in my town, and 1 cop. Now there are 3 big chain groceries and it takes *7 cops to make a traffic stop*.


They do swarm in.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> I have read extensively on what the Minneapolis people are saying. They have said flat out they are not reforming the police, but rather they are going to defund the police.


Defund and dismantle is what they said. They are still working on a plan for going forward when that is accomplished.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

HDRider said:


> I have read extensively on what the Minneapolis people are saying. They have said flat out they are not reforming the police, but rather they are going to defund the police.


I wasn’t very impressed with her quote in the OP here. 
What exactly was she trying to say? that the idea that if someone is breaking into our house is alarming to us and we want to call the police then that is our privilege speaking?
Whatever, female dog. I want to be able to call the police. 

do you suppose she wants the citizenry of Minneapolis to be armed so they can protect themselves?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Defund and dismantle is what they said. They are still working on a plan for going forward when that is accomplished.


I am not going to argue with you about it. Time will tell.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lisa in WA said:


> I wasn’t very impressed with her quote in the OP here.
> What exactly was she trying to say? that the idea that if someone is breaking into our house is alarming to us and we want to call the police then that is our privilege speaking?
> Whatever, female dog. I want to be able to call the police.
> 
> do you suppose she wants the citizenry of Minneapolis to be armed so they can protect themselves?


That is the thing. She is talking without a single thought, or logic or reason behind it. It is all reactionary and raw emotion. It is pure horse ****


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I have only seen a few scenes, but I think this is the road we are on.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I have only seen a few scenes, but I think this is the road we are on.


I am just surprised by how fast the ride is


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

First cleanup.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

https://www.areavibes.com/camden-nj/crime/


> *Key Findings*
> 
> Camden crime rates are *15% higher than the national average*
> Violent crimes in Camden are *1% higher than the national average*
> ...


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> That is what they did. Each old police officer had to fill out 40 to 50 pages of paperwork, take tests etc. They weeded out the bad cops and those not willing to invest in a new reformed way of policing.


More like a Leftist,Socialist, Indoctrinated way of policing...


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> Those not bothering to research what they mean and others who find fault in everything are the ones muddling the message.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

Rodeo's Bud said:


> There won't be any problems.
> 
> The social workers will take care of it. All those tweaker, thieves and rambunctious kids need is a good talking to about their future.
> 
> ...


Good list but you left out midnight basketball:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_basketball


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Will the last person to leave Minneapolis turn out the lights? Because if this transformative new model goes through as described there will be a mass exodus.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

painterswife said:


> Research Camden New Jersey and how they did this. It was a success.


Now really research exactly what they did, just replaced a municipal police force with coverage from the county.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> That seems un-zen


Unless you’re searching for the order in predictable chaos. 

This will be chaos. 
Predictably so.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

I’m just plain embarrassed to be from the state.

so much for Minnesota nice.

Minneapolis is an embarrassment.

Paul


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Hmm, wonder how sales of firearms and ammunition are doing?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Now well enough apparently? Lots of burned out buidlings, etc.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Responsibility among folks buying firearms and ammunition seem to be at an all time high; the violence and hate seems to be
coming from that other crowd.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I am looking forward to watching what happens in the first city that “dismantles” their police force.


I thought if police stay home sheriff steps in and when they go home you have marital law?


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## blackhereford4 (Mar 27, 2017)

HDRider said:


> CNN’s “New Day,” Host Alisyn Camerota asked, “What if, in the middle of the night, my home is broken into? Who do I call?”
> 
> Minneapolis City Council President Lisa Bender said, “Yes, I mean, I hear that loud and clear from a lot of my neighbors, and myself, too, and I know that that comes from a place of privilege. Because for those of us for whom the system is working, I think we need to step back and imagine what it would feel like to already live in that reality where calling the police may mean more harm is done.”


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Blacks vs Cops...The two warring groups at odds today they say...have been having the same issue with each other all my life...and everyone on both sides claim they want Justice...while both sides are guilty of the exact same problem causing code of conduct...
NOT SNITCHING ON THE WRONGDOERS AROUND THEM!
NO SNITCHING=NO JUSTICE

author unknown


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## MurphSC (Apr 10, 2020)

coolrunnin said:


> Now really research exactly what they did, just replaced a municipal police force with coverage from the county.


At the risk of over simplifying things if I have a flat tire I don't get rid of the whole tractor. I repair the tire or replace it if it is that bad. Nor do I plow under the whole field because of a few bad stalks. 

Just sayin....


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

When the police get fed up (if they aren't already) and start resigning by the thousands, chaos will result and the end will be National Guard policing our cities. Ever since Obama started supporting criminals (if Black) instead of the police this situation has gone downhill. Open season on killing police. Blaming police for arresting criminals (if Black). How many police have to die or be injured before people recognize that force is sometimes (often?) necessary to arrest people who don't want to be arrested?

I'm sure Blacks have justification for their complaints on profiling and many other issues. However, if they do the crime they should not be "privileged" to avoid the consequences of the crime. * No one of any race should have a knee pressed on their neck to the point of death. *

We tell officers to protect us and get the criminals off the street. That means the officers are risking their lives to protect us so we should be supporting them not threatening to defund them. How many officers have been killed in ambushes since Obama started the anti-police attitude? I know two in the Des Moines area were shot while sitting in their squad cars.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

In typical Orwellian Doublespeak

(Reuters) - The Minneapolis City Council on Friday unanimously passed a resolution to pursue a *community-led public safety system* to replace the police department following the death of George Floyd at the hands of the city’s police.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Initial uniforms are in development.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

HDRider said:


> In typical Orwellian Doublespeak
> 
> (Reuters) - The Minneapolis City Council on Friday unanimously passed a resolution to pursue a *community-led public safety system* to replace the police department following the death of George Floyd at the hands of the city’s police.


 "Community-led public safety system". Hmm, is that where we elect representatives, they enact laws, and gather up some folks to enforce those laws? Why didn't they think of this years ago?


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