# Utility Right of Way



## ffnc

We have lived in our current home on 5 acres for 7 years. We are sandwiched between a 15 acre homestead and an empty 33 acre tract of land that was up until last spring, completely wooded. It is landlocked unless we, and the other 3 homeowners on our private road allow them to use our road to access it. Also, we would have to allow them to cross our property and there is no recorded easement.

We met the original owner of the 33 acre tract soon after we moved in and had expressed an interest in purchasing the land, he passed away soon after, the economy tanked, and we put the idea on the back burner.

Fast forward to this spring, we get a knock on our door and it's someone from a logging company representing the landowners next door. He asks to use our road to access the land for logging. We we're a bit taken aback and he was quite pushy. Since we knew the property line was very close to our driveway and barn we asked if there was a way to negotiate a bit of a buffer in exchange for us possibly allowing them to use our road. He said no, the contract had been signed. He was basically a bully and threw out several rather frightening suggestions of what could/would happen if they had to cut a road in behind us from the main road. We weren't prepared to answer so he left saying he'd be back in touch. My husband and i were very frightened and immediately contacted a surveyor to determine exactly where our property line fell. I was adamant that I did not want them to use our road. We never heard back from him until the day they planned to start logging, he called us, we said no to using our road and they immediately starting cutting a new road in from the main road running a slight distance behind our back property line. We never heard from the actual land owners.

Unfortunately for us they clear cut the land, in some places there are completely bare spots on our property line where there are no trees to block the barren view. Because of bad weather and rain the logging went on for months, it was very unpleasant for everyone living around us.

We've contacted the land owners kindly twice since the land was cleared and asked if they would be willing to sell us all the land, or a portion of the land, or even a thin buffer so we can let the trees regrow. The first time they said yes, when we talked again they became very vague and non committal.

A month ago they started bulldozing and removing stumps. My husband asked one of the gentleman what they were doing and he said they were planning on bringing in a modular house and that they would be "talking to us about electricity soon."

2 weeks ago they started burning with no notice, one night the burn pile was so huge we called the fire department to make sure it was okay. It is very close to our house. The piles have been going for days on end and our house fills with smoke sometimes and we've had ashes all over our cars.

Yesterday we learned they plan to run their road right against our property line making it clear they have no interest in working with us on a buffer.

My question is this. They are going to come to us soon and ask to connect to our transformer. They have no other options for power. It will be very expensive for them because it's a long distance and because it will go underground. They cannot do this unless we grant a right of way which for any number of reasons I don't feel particularly willing to do at this point. Aside from the fact they have been less than neighborly, the power line will have to go all the way across our pasture, we can never have a pond or pool or build anything there. If we were to consider this at all, is there a dollar amount you would think fair? Would you even consider this? I don't want to start a feud but I don't feel very neighborly any more.

Sorry for the length of this post, any suggestions or thoughts would be welcome. Thank you!


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## Molly Mckee

No, I would not agree to anything that I didn't have to. Those people will push until you put a stop to it.


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## TnAndy

Whatever dollar amount would make you feel good. If nothing comes to mind, simply tell them "NO". Doesn't sound like they've filled you with good feelings so far, and that isn't likely to change whether you grant them an easement or not.

By the way, it doesn't sound 'landlocked' if all they had to do was cut a road in another way. Either somebody gave them an easement, or the land bordered a public road.


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## ffnc

TnAndy, they own a thin strip of land that connects to the main road, for whatever reason they never cut in, probably because it was cost prohibitive. The road in cut by the loggers is probably a mile long. It probably cost at a minimum $50k to gravel. Historically the land had only been used for hunting and 4 wheelers so the owner had handshake deals with the previous owners to use the gate on our property.


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## JohnnyRebel

Try to get them to give you a small strip of land in exchange for you paying for them to hook up to your transformer.


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## tarbe

I feel horribly for what you've gone through. This is certainly my version of a neighbor nightmare.

You have already shown a whole lot more patience than I think I could muster. I would be planting land mines by now!

Good luck with this. I hope you can get some sort of satisfaction from these folks for the misery they have already heaped upon you.

Tim


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## big rockpile

Tell them no.

big rockpile


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## Michael W. Smith

ffnc said:


> We've contacted the land owners kindly twice since the land was cleared and asked if they would be willing to sell us all the land, or a portion of the land, or even a thin buffer so we can let the trees regrow. The first time they said yes, when we talked again they became very vague and non committal.
> 
> My husband asked one of the gentleman what they were doing and he said they were planning on bringing in a modular house and that they would be "talking to us about electricity soon."
> 
> Yesterday we learned they plan to run their road right against our property line making it clear they have no interest in working with us on a buffer.
> 
> They are going to come to us soon and ask to connect to our transformer. They have no other options for power. It will be very expensive for them because it's a long distance and because it will go underground. They cannot do this unless we grant a right of way which for any number of reasons I don't feel particularly willing to do at this point. Aside from the fact they have been less than neighborly, the power line will have to go all the way across our pasture, we can never have a pond or pool or build anything there. If we were to consider this at all, is there a dollar amount you would think fair? Would you even consider this? I don't want to start a feud but I don't feel very neighborly any more.


You know what they say about paybacks?

Being that THEY were the first ones who weren't too neighborly, and then instead of just telling you they weren't interested in selling, they just lead you along - I'm not so certain I would be too willing to budge.

Since they have their driveway right along your property line, and never asked you about it (which I get, THEY own it, but still when they knew you were interested in the property) along with everything else . . . . . . I wouldn't care if I made them mad or not.

You have to decide what you want out of the deal. If it's property, decide how much - if it's money - decide how much it's going to cost them to come in from the far end of the property.

And if you don't want the line to go across your pasture, you could play the same game as them. When they come looking for your permission, just tell them that "Yeah, you will have to talk it over with your spouse." and then lead them on until they keep coming to you and then you finally tell them "We aren't interested. Now go away and leave us alone."

It would be interesting to see if they are going to start building the house BEFORE they get electric - or if they just think you will let them hook on to your transformer.

But, are you sure you can say no? Does the electric company have a certain amount of "right of way" that they can just extend the line?

If not, figure out what you want and go for it. If they aren't willing to do what you want, let them find out just how expensive their new electric line is going to cost them!


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## Solar Geek

IMHO, Michael is right, the electric co. may claim they (the electric company) OWN the transformer. But if there was an easement for anyone else to hook up, it would be on your *surveyed *property.* Check your survey. *

It would be difficult for any utility to force you to give access ACROSS YOUR LAND with NEW limitations (such as no pond or pool allowed) on your land that don't currently exist to another land parcel from your transformer IF there is no present legal easement granted to the electric company. (Of course, any township or municipality could use eminent domain to get that access but that takes years generally.) 

Call your electric company if there is any confusion and have their representative come out and go over the documents with you. 

*If you can, say NO. *

1. There are always the issues of downed lines, who pays to maintain them (especially the ones over your property even if the lines service the jerk neighbors.)

2. What If they cause any kind of problems with the shared electric service - easy example is a "backfeed" with a generator - Likely would have a generator if you are at all isolated. And since they are such jerks who knows if they would install/operate a generator properly. The backfeed area COULD be on *your *property or at least cross it. Who pays? 

"The Danger of "Back-feeding"

_Back-feeding occurs when the electricity produced from a home generator feeds back into the power line. If the back-fed voltage passes through one of our transformers, the voltage increases to a deadly level, which places the lives of linemen who may be working on downed power lines in grave danger and also risks starting a fire.

Because back-feeding can be *deadly *to power crews - and can cause a fire in your home or permanent damage to your generator - it must be prevented through the installation of a Break Before Make transfer switch._"

3. * Easements or agreements of this type are generally recorded on your deed and become "permanent" unless simply contractual in nature with a beginning and end point.* 

But THINK about that -- *once *they have power through your transformer, there will never be incentive for them to upgrade and pay to get it any other way than from your transformer. So what would be the end date???

4. *Finally, this could put as mentioned above, permanent restrictions on your property which you may want to sell decades (or sooner) from now!!!!
Who knows what they will hook up, who knows who will buy their property and why put any difficulty on a future sale for you???* I cannot think of any buyer saying "oh sure, that's fine that I cannot have a pond, pool or whatever". 

5. They will never pay you enough $$$ to make this worthwhile re #2,3 &4 above.

Ok, these are just my quick thoughts. FWIW.


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## Forcast

Just say no.


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## ffnc

Thanks for all the great feedback. For the record, there were no easements on our land when we bought it. Our electricity is provided by a small electric coop, they were out at our house last week because we're having our road graded and we needed the lines marked. I mentioned the situation to him and he reaffirmed that we would have to grant a right of way or they were out of luck.

I feel pretty sure that the chance of a buffer is off the table, they've already placed a bunch of pink flags marking their road right next to the property line. Maybe they could give us a buffer somewhere else but it wouldn't be helpful. The place we wanted the buffer was behind our barn and next to our driveway and that's right where they're building they're road. Sometimes I feel like they're almost thumbing they're nose at us.

If we were to grant access we would require them to go as close to our property line as possible, it will be a long way, probably over a 1/4 mile or more. The power lines will be underground, there are none above ground here so it will be really expensive. Sometimes I wonder if they've even taken any of this into account! 

We have sort of reconciled ourselves to the way things are and have accepted that we probably won't get any buffer. We have decided to work with a landscape person to figure out some screening ideas along the property line. We're going to try and make the best of the situation. What we're hoping is we can at least negotiate enough funding to pay for that work. If we could get a buffer too, that would be amazing.

We do have a lawyer, I didn't want to contact him until we hear from the neighbors.


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## fordy

ffnc said:


> We have lived in our current home on 5 acres for 7 years. We are sandwiched between a 15 acre homestead and an empty 33 acre tract of land that was up until last spring, completely wooded. It is landlocked unless we, and the other 3 homeowners on our private road allow them to use our road to access it. Also, we would have to allow them to cross our property and there is no recorded easement.
> 
> We met the original owner of the 33 acre tract soon after we moved in and had expressed an interest in purchasing the land, he passed away soon after, the economy tanked, and we put the idea on the back burner.
> 
> Fast forward to this spring, we get a knock on our door and it's someone from a logging company representing the landowners next door. He asks to use our road to access the land for logging. We we're a bit taken aback and he was quite pushy. Since we knew the property line was very close to our driveway and barn we asked if there was a way to negotiate a bit of a buffer in exchange for us possibly allowing them to use our road. He said no, the contract had been signed. He was basically a bully and threw out several rather frightening suggestions of what could/would happen if they had to cut a road in behind us from the main road. We weren't prepared to answer so he left saying he'd be back in touch. My husband and i were very frightened and immediately contacted a surveyor to determine exactly where our property line fell. I was adamant that I did not want them to use our road. We never heard back from him until the day they planned to start logging, he called us, we said no to using our road and they immediately starting cutting a new road in from the main road running a slight distance behind our back property line. We never heard from the actual land owners.
> 
> Unfortunately for us they clear cut the land, in some places there are completely bare spots on our property line where there are no trees to block the barren view. Because of bad weather and rain the logging went on for months, it was very unpleasant for everyone living around us.
> 
> We've contacted the land owners kindly twice since the land was cleared and asked if they would be willing to sell us all the land, or a portion of the land, or even a thin buffer so we can let the trees regrow. The first time they said yes, when we talked again they became very vague and non committal.
> 
> A month ago they started bulldozing and removing stumps. My husband asked one of the gentleman what they were doing and he said they were planning on bringing in a modular house and that they would be "talking to us about electricity soon."
> 
> 2 weeks ago they started burning with no notice, one night the burn pile was so huge we called the fire department to make sure it was okay. It is very close to our house. The piles have been going for days on end and our house fills with smoke sometimes and we've had ashes all over our cars.
> 
> Yesterday we learned they plan to run their road right against our property line making it clear they have no interest in working with us on a buffer.
> 
> My question is this. They are going to come to us soon and ask to connect to our transformer. They have no other options for power. It will be very expensive for them because it's a long distance and because it will go underground. They cannot do this unless we grant a right of way which for any number of reasons I don't feel particularly willing to do at this point. Aside from the fact they have been less than neighborly, the power line will have to go all the way across our pasture, we can never have a pond or pool or build anything there. If we were to consider this at all, is there a dollar amount you would think fair? Would you even consider this? I don't want to start a feud but I don't feel very neighborly any more.
> 
> Sorry for the length of this post, any suggestions or thoughts would be welcome. Thank you!


 ...................Negotiate ! They need your power , you need a buffer zone twixt them and you ! See if they will sell you a 30 foot buffer zone , in return for allowing them access to your power pole ! , fordy


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## fordy

Solar Geek said:


> IMHO, Michael is right, the electric co. may claim they (the electric company) OWN the transformer. But if there was an easement for anyone else to hook up, it would be on your *surveyed *property.* Check your survey. *
> 
> It would be difficult for any utility to force you to give access ACROSS YOUR LAND with NEW limitations (such as no pond or pool allowed) on your land that don't currently exist to another land parcel from your transformer IF there is no present legal easement granted to the electric company. (Of course, any township or municipality could use eminent domain to get that access but that takes years generally.)
> 
> Call your electric company if there is any confusion and have their representative come out and go over the documents with you.
> 
> *If you can, say NO. *
> 
> 1. There are always the issues of downed lines, who pays to maintain them (especially the ones over your property even if the lines service the jerk neighbors.)
> 
> 2. What If they cause any kind of problems with the shared electric service - easy example is a "backfeed" with a generator - Likely would have a generator if you are at all isolated. And since they are such jerks who knows if they would install/operate a generator properly. The backfeed area COULD be on *your *property or at least cross it. Who pays?
> 
> "The Danger of "Back-feeding"
> 
> _Back-feeding occurs when the electricity produced from a home generator feeds back into the power line. If the back-fed voltage passes through one of our transformers, the voltage increases to a deadly level, which places the lives of linemen who may be working on downed power lines in grave danger and also risks starting a fire.
> 
> Because back-feeding can be *deadly *to power crews - and can cause a fire in your home or permanent damage to your generator - it must be prevented through the installation of a Break Before Make transfer switch._"
> 
> 3. *Easements or agreements of this type are generally recorded on your deed and become "permanent" unless simply contractual in nature with a beginning and end point.*
> 
> But THINK about that -- *once *they have power through your transformer, there will never be incentive for them to upgrade and pay to get it any other way than from your transformer. So what would be the end date???
> 
> 4. *Finally, this could put as mentioned above, permanent restrictions on your property which you may want to sell decades (or sooner) from now!!!!
> Who knows what they will hook up, who knows who will buy their property and why put any difficulty on a future sale for you???* I cannot think of any buyer saying "oh sure, that's fine that I cannot have a pond, pool or whatever".
> 
> 5. They will never pay you enough $$$ to make this worthwhile re #2,3 &4 above.
> 
> Ok, these are just my quick thoughts. FWIW.


 ...............They will be running , 7,200 volts under ground to several new transformers to power a 33 acre mobile home park ! In fact , the utility may run a second or third 7,200 volt line underground so they can balance the load . 33 acres will probably be several hundred trailer lots ! , fordy


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## Hoopjohn

The person owning the adjoining property obviously listens to a different drumbeat than you do. 
They obviously don't believe in the adage "you draw more flies with honey than vinegar". 

They sent a logger to more or less bully you into submission to use your road. The end result for them was a lengthy expensive road that certainly was a financial disaster. 

They clear cut a piece of property of which they wish to reside upon. Again, not all that bright. Anyone building a home should ALWAYS think about a homes future resale.

Now, it seems they will be constructing a house before they have electrical service. 

These people obviously show a propensity of very poorly thought out decisions/actions. Without question, they will continue down the road of poor decisions. 

Bottom line is you really don't want anything to do with these people, even if they are your neighbors. You have no choice in the fact that these people are your neighbors. They will certainly bring more drama into your life.....if you let them. No to the utility easement.


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## Jlynnp

First the neighbor is under no obligation to let you know what he/she intends to do with his property. While it is the neighborly thing to do he has no legal obligation to do so. Now the property company who owns the 2600 acres across the road from us did let everyone know and did give us the opportunity to buy the property.

Second the transformer belongs to the power company not you and they can do with it what they want, however with that said if they are putting in a huge trailer park they will in all likelihood place a new transformer or multiple transformers to cover the power usage in the park.

As for right away on your property you can deny that and as my DH explained (he is retired from a power co) they will likely place them as close to your property as possible. I feel sorry for your situation as we are also living it here. I would strongly suggest you place a tall, secure fence between your property and the trailer park to keep out undesirables. But also be careful not to piss off the power company, power does go out and you will need their services, the difference between an hour without power is much different than a couple of days without power. Remember your power company does not guarantee a constant supply of power nor are they legally required to.


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## unregistered41671

You might need to invest in a couple of hundred of these. They grow mighty fast and are disease resistant trees. http://thujagardens.com/GreenGiants.html
These are good people to deal with.

We bought a couple hundred a while back and they have done well. They are only $1.80 ea for 10-12 seedlings if you buy at least a hundred. 20 yrs ago is the best time to plant a tree. *The next best time is **today*. Good luck. Remember, whatever decision you make regarding these 'neighbors', you may have to live with a long time.


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## MikeC

Start talking to your lawyer.


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## M5farm

don't know where your from but The power lines belong to the power company. They would not operate off your transformer. they will simply extend the line to their property and install a new transformer to supply their needs. Here the power company will add one pole off the main line at no extra charge. (just had it done 2 months ago) 

while I can see where you feel they were not neighborly it really does not matter. Its their property to do what they want with it. Calling the fire dept was not neighborly either if the fires were not threatening your property.


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## bigjon

lawyer up. talk to big rock pile about fences!


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## big rockpile

If there is no easement on the Deed they can not make you give them one.

Years ago Electric company came to run poles to my neighbor over a mile away. They had easement along the road. They came up to my house said they was going to have to run Lines couple feet on my side of the Fence. I didn't go look at the time. Couple days after they left I went down, found they had marked for Poles 40 feet on my side of the fence  Called them up told them that it wasn't going to work, move it along the road.

Got to keep on top of stuff. I was in the Hospital, Road Contractor came on my property to get soil to build up the road. I sued and won. He didn't learn though. Next time just got dirt on other side of road.

big rockpile


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## Michael W. Smith

ffnc said:


> For the record, there were no easements on our land when we bought it. Our electricity is provided by a small electric coop, they were out at our house last week because we're having our road graded and we needed the lines marked. I mentioned the situation to him and he reaffirmed that we would have to grant a right of way or they were out of luck.
> 
> I feel pretty sure that the chance of a buffer is off the table, they've already placed a bunch of pink flags marking their road right next to the property line. Maybe they could give us a buffer somewhere else but it wouldn't be helpful. The place we wanted the buffer was behind our barn and next to our driveway and that's right where they're building they're road.
> 
> If we were to grant access we would require them to go as close to our property line as possible, it will be a long way, probably over a 1/4 mile or more. The power lines will be underground, there are none above ground here so it will be really expensive. Sometimes I wonder if they've even taken any of this into account!
> 
> We have sort of reconciled ourselves to the way things are and have accepted that we probably won't get any buffer. We have decided to work with a landscape person to figure out some screening ideas along the property line. We're going to try and make the best of the situation. What we're hoping is we can at least negotiate enough funding to pay for that work.


Since you can say no - it sounds like you can call the shots. "Give us this, or you can get your electric the long way around."

If the neighbor gives you any flack about what you want, you can just say "Oh okay, well we have just changed our minds. You can NOT get access from the electric from our property. We are done. Have a nice life."

As for the buffer, that isn't going to happen now - but you don't have to resign yourself to the situation and hope you can get enough funding for the screening. Evergreen trees are cheap. It will take a couple of years, but they grow fairly quickly.

It's pretty simple, if the neighbor doesn't give you want you want, you don't play ball.


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## ffnc

I really appreciate everyone's feedback, it's been helpful to put all of this in perspective.

I just wanted to get opinions on something that happened yesterday. I was talking to someone who said I needed to check with the county about setbacks. They thought it was unusual to be able to put a road so close to our property line, barn and well head. I decided to stop by the code/permit office to check in to get a heads up on the whole building/clearing process. I did learn as far as setbacks are concerned it's very unregulated, except in regards to building codes. Basically they can put their road wherever they want as long as it's within the building code. The woman who helped me pulled our parcel up on the computer. She looked a bit and then asked what kind of clearing the neighbors we're doing, I said that they had cut down trees and were now clearing stumps and burning. She said they had pulled no permits for the work they were doing and went to get the soil and conservation officer who she said we needed to talk to. The officer ended up being in a meeting but the woman I was speaking with said I needed to call her first thing today.

My intention is not to get anyone in trouble and I was going to blow it off, but two people have mentioned that this could be a serious issue with erosion and drainage. We have several intermittent creeks running along side and through our property, also their property sits up on a hill above us. We've had lots of rain and now super cold temps. 

What do you guys think? Should I keep my mouth shut, or do you think this is a big enough deal I should call? Could this really create problems in the future?

Also, I just want to clarify to those who have pointed out that...
A. The neighbors can do anything they want with their land.
B. We don't own the transformer, the electric company does.

We are very clear on that and have never suggested otherwise. I may not like that they've clear cut their land, but I understand I have no say in that.
I also understand that I don't own the transformer, but it sits on my land and I don't have to allow someone to cross my land to connect to it, above or below ground.

Finally, to the person that suggested it was un-neighborly to call the fire department, I can only say this, if you would have looked out your family room window and saw what I saw you would have done called them too!


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## ffnc

Just want to point out too, they're not building a trailer park. They are putting in a modular home now and a stick built home on another spot in the future, at least that's what they've said. Two other family members may build on another part we can't really see in the future as well.


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## Molly Mckee

We have seen what can happen with poor logging practices, there is a reason for rules. If there are creeks on your property or the neighbors, there are probably set back rules. Here the fine for cutting tree that are not yours is 3x the value, so most loggers leave a setback to be sure they don't go over the line. You also have to get permits to log and it sounds like your neighbors are ignoring all the rules. I would work with the county/state to be sure the laws are followed. I would also question if it is legal to put in a trailer park. That may not be allowed in rural zoning. It sounds like your neighbors either don't know there are rules or they don't care. The logger involved knows and is not following the rules. You may be doing your neighbor a favor, he is the one that will be paying any fines. I also would doubt that a logger that is avoiding the laws is going to be very honest about paying the land owners their share or the income.


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## Solar Geek

Ffnc, 
1. in answer to your question, YES! it can be a serious issue even if only a few of the wrong trees were logged. We built on a slight hill. Despite our best efforts with the county, town and landscapers, the first rainfall drowned our neighbor's garden area (luckily before anything was planted!)

We got several more land design guys involved and immediately re-contoured our whole lower property. All of this flooding occurred from the brush between the 8 trees and the 8 trees being cut! Who would have thought. We bermed, and contoured, saved their garden and they are some of our best friends!

We did not have a stream nor any flooding before the driveway was put in so this was definitely caused by the removal of the trees and just too little contouring and berming the 1st time. Don't underestimate what can happen would be my thoughts.

2. regarding "squealing" -- you should follow up with the county. That is not being a 'bad neighbor' - you may be protecting them from further fines, lawsuits from the county and such. 

Also, don't you think the lady you talked to will mention something to the county officer and will take it badly that YOU failed to follow up? You are right in bringing it to their attention. People talk. Now the county lady has some idea of what is going on. THE right thing to do is to report it and be done. IMHO

Again, going back to letting them tie into your transformer. 
Every step/action taken by these neighbors and their contractors SCREAMs to run the other direction from them. They:

1. are perfoming *unpermitted *work - did they get permits for the rest of the build/trailer placement, well(?), electric work?

2. took advantage of where they could place their drive KNOWING you did not want it that close (who does that???)

3. are trying to bully you into allowing the electric tie-in.

Restrictions by the electric company on the use of your land where the lines will run are forever. No $$ can really make up for that.


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## M5farm

Sorry you feel that way. In my world I let the neighbors do what they want on there property and I do what I want on Mine. Rural fire depts typically operate on a shoestring budget. Going to a fire call that is under control would be a waste of resources.


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## Molly Mckee

My neighbors right to do what he wants ends when it endangers or affects my property. I will report any and all illegal burns. They are by far the largest causes of forest fires in our state. It is a lot easier to put out a smaller fire than one that encompasses many acres or some buildings. 

Extended burning, filling a neighbors house with smoke, building huge burn piles are not a neighborly thing to do. I don't envy you your new neighbors.


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## M5farm

Molly Mckee said:


> My neighbors right to do what he wants ends when it endangers or affects my property. I will report any and all illegal burns. They are by far the largest causes of forest fires in our state. It is a lot easier to put out a smaller fire than one that encompasses many acres or some buildings.
> 
> Extended burning, filling a neighbors house with smoke, building huge burn piles are not a neighborly thing to do. I don't envy you your new neighbors.


you only own the land. you do not own the AIR above it. This is probably just a lack of understanding in what happens in rural communities (the country) where people own a decent parcel of land and they are not stacked like stove wood on top of each other. I have a neighbor 3/4 mile away on each side. I have also seen people that move into our communities that think the same rules apply that applied where they are from(town). It does not work that way. People that mind other peoples business need not get upset when the shoe is on the other foot.


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## Molly Mckee

I have lived in rural areas most of my life. You cannot burn in Washington (and most other fire prone areas)without a permit. Trash burning and burn barrels have been illegal for over 30 years. Fines start at $1000.00plus the cost of fighting the fire or putting it out. One burn barrel fire and a little bit of wind can burn hundreds or thousands of acres. 

Anyone inconsiderate enough to burn and fill a neighbors home with smoke is not going to be a good neighbor. It has nothing to do with "owning the airspace".


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## dizzy

I don't even remember where I heard about this. http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/02...-hundreds-of-trees-cut-on-neighbors-property/ Don't know what the outcome was.


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## ffnc

M5farm said:


> you only own the land. you do not own the AIR above it. This is probably just a lack of understanding in what happens in rural communities (the country) where people own a decent parcel of land and they are not stacked like stove wood on top of each other. I have a neighbor 3/4 mile away on each side. I have also seen people that move into our communities that think the same rules apply that applied where they are from(town). It does not work that way. People that mind other peoples business need not get upset when the shoe is on the other foot.


I really do appreciate everyone's comments here. But I don't think I've made it clear just how large this burn pile is. This is not a pile that burns out in a couple of hours or even a couple of days. Imagine the wood and stumps left from clearing 33 acres, shove a whole bunch of that into a giant hole as big as a very large house until it's a pile 10-15 feet high maybe more, cover it in diesel fuel and light it. Continue to add more wood with the bulldozer every day for weeks on end. 

On the days that the wind blows the other direction and the weather is cool it's tolerable. On days where it's warm, humid, stagnant, or the wind is blowing towards us, it is unbearable. I would compare the scale to that of what you see when they clear and burn for a shopping centerd or a huge development. This is all happening 500 ft from our house. If you can honestly tell me this wouldn't bother you then you're a better man than I.


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## tarbe

Sounds like a little bit of hell to me. I feel for you.

Hope it all works out somehow....


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## texican

They screwed me, I'd not make their life any easier... let them pay to hook up their grid.

I'd also promptly go out and T-post the boundary, and start now, planting hundreds of thousands of red cedar 'seeds'... to get that screen started asap.


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## TnAndy

M5farm said:


> you only own the land. you do not own the AIR above it.


So, if I brought in a truck load of tires and fired them up, you'd have no problem with that, huh ? 

(I actually had a neighbor do just that once in the 70's when burning tires wasn't really frowned on like today)

I still have a neighbor that is an electrician. Couple times/yr he fires up his pile of scrap wire to burn off the insulation. (90 cents/lb with insulation, $2.50 burned off)

Stinks to high heaven if the wind blows the right way....and he is a 1/2 mile from my house.

You just haven't gotten the right brand of neighbor yet.....may your luck continue.


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## kycrawler

Have the soil and water agent out to see where You want to put your new pond what happens from there you can't control . Under no circumstances would I let them have access or a power easement


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## Forcast

YES you need to follow up with the state people for sure.


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## big rockpile

Yes Electric Company owns the Transformer but they can not run Lines over your property off of it they need Easement because it limits what you can do under it on your property.

big rockpile


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## Nimrod

What's happened is done. The property owners have gone out of their way to upset you so I would be disinclined to make life easy for them. 

First I would get the boundary surveyed and be sure they are not doing anything on your land. Sounds like there are not any setbacks.

Next get with your attorney and be sure that they or the electric company can not force you to allow their electric lines to cross your property. If you don't have to allow an easement for their electric lines then don't. If their lines cross your property, then there is a limit on what you can use your own land for and the electric company will keep a cleared area through your land where their lines are. The company will drive onto your land periodically to keep that area clear and they may dig up the line to repair it. If the electric company had an easement, they can put in however big a transmission line that the neighbor requires. If the neighbor plans to raise thousands of hogs or chickens (you only have their word that they are only going to put in a single mobile home), they will need lots of power. Make it as expensive to get the power as you can. An easement will lower the resale value of your land. It's hard to tell by how much and determine restitution and who knows what it would be in the future.

Plant a windbreak and visual break along your border ASAP.


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## Jennifer L.

From their side, they may not know at all that the logger bullied you. They may also not know anything about the burning, or at least the extent of it. It may simply be that they decided to use the property for themselves instead of selling and hired the land cleared and wrote the check.

Having said that, at this point I would only give them the easement if they are willing to pay big money. You are talking about electric for three homes? Well, unless they want to go off grid, if your place is the ONLY way they can get to their land, you hold all the cards. And since I'm feeling vindictive on your behalf, I would gauge how much to ask for contingent on what you think their net worth is. If they are people with money, you could probably get a lot more out of them than if they are "regular folks".

They don't sound like the people you want for neighbors, though, if this is how they act so far, so if you can get rid of them by them not having electric, that's the way to go. And guess what, if they can't get electric in, the property value just went way down and you may be able to buy the place in a few years cheap.  Just let your lawyer handle the paperwork so they don't see your name. 

Why can't they put the electric in along the logging road?


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## ffnc

Jennifer L. said:


> From their side, they may not know at all that the logger bullied you. They may also not know anything about the burning, or at least the extent of it. It may simply be that they decided to use the property for themselves instead of selling and hired the land cleared and wrote the check.
> 
> Having said that, at this point I would only give them the easement if they are willing to pay big money. You are talking about electric for three homes? Well, unless they want to go off grid, if your place is the ONLY way they can get to their land, you hold all the cards. And since I'm feeling vindictive on your behalf, I would gauge how much to ask for contingent on what you think their net worth is. If they are people with money, you could probably get a lot more out of them than if they are "regular folks".
> 
> They don't sound like the people you want for neighbors, though, if this is how they act so far, so if you can get rid of them by them not having electric, that's the way to go. And guess what, if they can't get electric in, the property value just went way down and you may be able to buy the place in a few years cheap.  Just let your lawyer handle the paperwork so they don't see your name.
> 
> Why can't they put the electric in along the logging road?


Great points and questions! They absolutely know what's happening. They actual live a mile or 2 down the road and they are the ones doing the clearing and burning. We've met them and tried to talk to them several times in a friendly way. We've gone next door and struck up conversation when they were working nearby a couple of times. That's how we've gotten any information that we know. 

We were dumb and scared and should have gone directly to them after the loggers came to our house. I think we naively thought that they wouldn't do something like that because we all live nearby and have similar acquaintances etc. Lesson learned! 

As for running the electric down the road, they could probably do that but it's going to be really expensive, that road is a mile or 2 long. I can't imagine how much it would cost, although they could maybe go above ground and save a little bit of money. It's going to be pricey coming from us too, they'll have to go under ground and it will be really expensive, even if we let them go the shortest distance.


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## M5farm

TnAndy said:


> So, if I brought in a truck load of tires and fired them up, you'd have no problem with that, huh ?
> 
> (I actually had a neighbor do just that once in the 70's when burning tires wasn't really frowned on like today)
> 
> I still have a neighbor that is an electrician. Couple times/yr he fires up his pile of scrap wire to burn off the insulation. (90 cents/lb with insulation, $2.50 burned off)
> 
> Stinks to high heaven if the wind blows the right way....and he is a 1/2 mile from my house.
> 
> You just haven't gotten the right brand of neighbor yet.....may your luck continue.


Got a neighbor that is a carpet installer , I take my backhoe over and dig his burn pits for him. Doesn't bother me.


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## GoldenCityMuse

Any update on this? Curious to see how it ends up.


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## ffnc

I met with our lawyer last week and he confirmed pretty much everything we were thinking. We can absolutely say no, but that we can try to negotiate anything. I think we've decided the answer will be no unless they are willing to give us a buffer or sell us a significant acreage along our property line. He said a letter will come to us from the utility, we haven't heard anything yet.

Strangely, it appears that all work has ceased next door, and honestly I don't think I've seen anyone over there since the holiday break. The burn pile is still going though. There is a huge tractor or digger of some sort parked out there though. It appears that they have finished clearing and grading for the modular home they said they are planning to bring in. My husband has chatted with them several times and his understanding is that initially they are going to live in the modular home and over time build another home in a more desirable location up on a hill. The road that they have flagged off right next to our property line is to go to this future homesite. It seems like they are putting the cart in front of the horse a bit, marking off the road to a house they plan to build in 5 years. Especially when they haven't even pulled a permit, brought in electricity, built a well, for the homesite they've already cleared. We've gathered that there may be financial issues (like younger generations assuming older generations are going to foot the bill) and other familial issues going on. I think there may not have been a lot of foresight in considering the costs of building on virgin land. 

I think we're moving on, we met with a landscaper last week to come up with a plan to buffer our boundaries so we can't really see what's going on. I'm really hoping we can just return to our normal life and find a way to distract ourselves from all the disruption next door!


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## Forcast

someone posted today on the sale site for willow type trees that grow fast for sale. I am thinking on this since my neighbors clear cut all the trees to the west side of me and I have lost all privacy and wind break. Before I could run around naked if I wanted and no one would have seen me or my junk, as in all the junk we statch around our places. now when I drive in I see mine and every other place from the main road. Not liking it one bit. Before no other house could see each other.


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## unregistered41671

Forcast said:


> someone posted today on the sale site for willow type trees that grow fast for sale. I am thinking on this since my neighbors clear cut all the trees to the west side of me and I have lost all privacy and wind break. Before I could run around naked if I wanted and no one would have seen me or my junk, as in all the junk we statch around our places. now when I drive in I see mine and every other place from the main road. Not liking it one bit. Before no other house could see each other.


If I am not mistaken, those willow trees loose their leaves in the fall.


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## OH Boy

I would absolutely refuse to grant them the utility easement. There is no upside to you in doing so. You have no control over what they might eventually build on their property that could impact your property value. The easement on your lot would potentially reduce your property value. They haven't exactly endeared themselves to you so what kind of neighbors will they be? I would politely tell them no thanks.


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## AmericanStand

I think Id GRANT them the easement.
Something like,
Were as pete smith States , warrants and guarantees that they Cannot and will not obtain electricity without a easement thru the Property of ffnc
FFNC grants access subject to the following provisions.
Line will be constructed and maintained and any costs arising from the line will be at grantees expense.
Grantor may move or shut off line at grantors sole discretion.


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## Drizler

At this point about all you can do is hold out on the right of way . Who knows maybe they will fall apart financially and just leave as many people like that have. Either way I would at least get some fast growing hedge trees in there and fast. Keep em well fertilized and watered too. 
These clowns maybe don't realize it but putting in a quarter mile of wire is going to cost them a fortune. Back in the day when mine went in1995 NYSEG would give you 1 pole, after that it was 2000 per installed and cable. In ground probably worse unless they dig their own trench. Even then they would have to keep it legal as the power company isn't just going to dump a cable on sharp rocks. 
You might want to find out from that power co just how much it will cost these ****s to run that 1/4 mile line if you make them. After all it's not a state, commercial or personal secret they have to keep. If I was even thinking of getting my right of way from these clowns I would get that number then find out just how much of an easement you could get out of them to avoid it. When they start to bluster and whine remind them that it all would be different if they had approached you fairly in the first place. Don't worry your not going to lose any good will. People like this are garbage and being nice to them now is only going to be seen by them as weakness. This kind never changes whether they have money or not.
When my place went in we had to wait half the Spring and Summer to get power. The reason why was some old Hag in her 90's across the road who owned a huge piece of family land. NYSEG wanted to put a guy wire on her land in the trees just off the highway which was hundred of yards from her camp. It would have meant nothing to her still she wouldn't have it. The reason why???? Back in the 70's her son wanted to build a big porch and the power pole was in the way. NYSEG wouldn't move the offending pole FOR FREE so he could build his porch and she still held a grudge. Some people eh:bored:


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## AmericanStand

Drizler said:


> When my place went in we had to wait half the Spring and Summer to get power. The reason why was some old Hag in her 90's across the road who owned a huge piece of family land. NYSEG wanted to put a guy wire on her land in the trees just off the highway which was hundred of yards from her camp. It would have meant nothing to her still she wouldn't have it. The reason why???? Back in the 70's her son wanted to build a big porch and the power pole was in the way. NYSEG wouldn't move the offending pole FOR FREE so he could build his porch and she still held a grudge. Some people eh:bored:



Why didn't you just use a brace on your side ?


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## Declan

ffnc said:


> Great points and questions! They absolutely know what's happening. They actual live a mile or 2 down the road and they are the ones doing the clearing and burning. We've met them and tried to talk to them several times in a friendly way. We've gone next door and struck up conversation when they were working nearby a couple of times. That's how we've gotten any information that we know.
> 
> We were dumb and scared and should have gone directly to them after the loggers came to our house. I think we naively thought that they wouldn't do something like that because we all live nearby and have similar acquaintances etc. Lesson learned!
> 
> As for running the electric down the road, they could probably do that but it's going to be really expensive, that road is a mile or 2 long. I can't imagine how much it would cost, although they could maybe go above ground and save a little bit of money. It's going to be pricey coming from us too, they'll have to go under ground and it will be really expensive, even if we let them go the shortest distance.


Which may cause them to want to move the trailer park closer to the other road and further away from your property. I wouldn't consent to it personally. If you have trouble with confrontation, when they approach you, tell them you will discuss it with your lawyer and then have the lawyer be the bad guy and say no.

Much of the OP complaints really didn't mean anything because it was their land to do with as they please, but now this is your land to do with as you please that is the issue and it sounds like there is nothing they can do that will not leave you with regret. My dad had a pushy neighbor like that. My dad tried to be neighborly, and he just pushed and pushed and pushed and did things like built an 2 story building right on the property line and then extended a shed off it and pretended the builder did it by accident. The darn property line stake was 3 feet from the building and painted blaze orange. There was no "innocent mistake."


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## Drizler

AmericanStand said:


> Why didn't you just use a brace on your side ?


I didn't have any say in the matter. It was on a curve so the NYSEG engineer had to do it some special way. Somebody inferred I was the schmuck for calling the old bat an old bat for not catering to my wishes. Not even, the old broad had her bone to pick with NYSEG and I just got to to be the victim in the middle of a bunch of nothing. She tied up my house, someone she didn't know or care about just to be miserable to the power company. Besides, as for the 30 year old dispute with her kid over that pole being moved they all had more money than god anyways so it all was just to be pissy. I wouldn't have even known about all this stupidity but the engineer knew her real well and said not to waste any time talking to the old sourpuss. Like I said , some people.
As for the OP's problem if it was me I would do anything in my power to keep his trailer park electric far away. Personally if I had a trailer park move in i would be gone:walk: before it was finished. I would make darned sure my lawyer looked into the requirements for trailer parks too while I was at it. Most places have very strict zoning, setback and variances to be complied with in order to put one of those abominations in. You might be able to nip that right in the bud and it's always easier before it gets built.
All that info should be readily available right at the town clerk's office. They should be able to tell you all this stuff and it's free. Trailer parks are usually nothing anybody has to go look up, it's that straight forward. The first thing I would want to know is whether the area was zoned commercial or residential and take it from there.


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## AmericanStand

Well it is rather rude to call someone a old bat.
Most here seem to feel that what she does with her property is none of your business. A bit inconvenient for you of course but certainly within her rights I suppose.
The engineer could have been blowing smoke up your butt, perhaps a nice friendly discussion and a hot apple pie might have let her see the predicament you were in.


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## ffnc

Just out of curiosity American Stand, why would you grant an easement? 

Still no sign of the neighbors, I'm a little nervous now that they're just going to leave it. They also had surveryors out yesterday and it looks like they're splitting the land in half for the different grand kids maybe. We realized yesterday though that we haven't seen them since the day they put up the flags right on our property line. My husband had a conversation with them that day and I don't think he was his usual friendly self. Maybe they're concerned things aren't going to be as simple as they thought


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## AmericanStand

If you read my proposed grant you will see they agree to ONLY get power from across you AND it gives you full control of that power at their expence.
In other words shut it off any time you like, reroute it AT THEIR EXPENCE for any reason you want...etc.


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## Solar Geek

EASEMENTS can be very hard to end. That is why there are so many, many cases about them as people disagree on how they are being used/abused, whether or not others on the property benefitting from the easement may also "use" the easement, whether "necessity" dictates an expansion of the easement even against your wishes, and on and on. 

We have moved 16 times and have run into all kinds of easements on our property and on others benefitting our land. In one case for example, we had the easement over our neighbor's property to put in our sewer line 500 feet down to the road. It would have involved removal several of their beautiful 100 year old trees, their huge veggie garden, and on. 

We bit the bullet and ran it down our driveway. Much more expensive, but we did not want to alienate them right off the bat. They never realized the severity of what would've happened and we are still great friends even tho we moved away 7 years ago. 


*Why take the chance that you may have to go to court just to end it or enforce correct usage of it?* Generally, you would have to bear your own lawyer/court costs even if you were proved correct and were allowed to end the easement.

Unlike a private contract between you and the current owners, easements such as for utility access may "run with the land" (again please see the 2 articles for the details as I am grossly generalizing here) and not between you and the current owner (unless crafted perfectly and even then a future landowner might have an argument he still could use the easement utility access) and so future owners could sue for continued use of the easement even where you wish to discontinue it.

Please see this short summary of general easment law and you will note how HARD it is to end an easement. 

http://www.conveyit.co.nz/free-property-advice/easements/

Here is one key paragraph:

*"Changing or Removing Easements*_
*Easements stay on the title, and bind future owners of the land (so they're not like a private contract, because they are created with reference to the land itself, not the owner)*.

Sometimes you cannot remove an easement - for example if:

removing a right of way would leave the dominant tenement "land-locked", that is, without access to a legal road; or
it is granted as a condition of a subdivision.

It is *sometimes possible *to remove an easement, when (among other things) there is:

agreement between the owners of the dominant and servient tenements; or
proof that the easement has become redundant (for example because a legal road has been formed on one of the dominant tenement's boundaries, so there is no longer any need to drive across the servient tenement)"

_
Please also see WIKI on this - the paragraph on TERMINATION is set forth below. Not to beat anyone over the head but easements are very hard to remove in many cases. 

"_Termination[edit]
A party claiming termination should show one or more of the following factors:

Release: agreement to terminate by the grantor and the grantee of the easement
Expiration: the easement reaches a formal expiration date
Abandonment: the holder demonstrates intent to discontinue the easement[16]
Merger: When one owner gains title to both dominant and servient tenement
Mortgaged properties with merged easements that then go into foreclosure can cause the easement to revive when the bank takes possession of part of the dominant estate
Necessity: If the easement was created by necessity and the necessity no longer exists
Estoppel: The easement is unused and the servient estate takes some action in reliance on the easement's termination
Prescription: The servient estate reclaims the easement with actual, open, hostile and continuous use of the easement
Condemnation: The government exercises eminent domain or the land is officially condemned
Death: The owner of an easement in gross_"

Clearly, this is your land and you can do whatever you want. Hope these articles help you.


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## michael ark

I would start fencing and plant some bamboo along the property line. Their is some evergreen bamboo for year round privacy [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0KJTcflQGY"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0KJTcflQGY[/ame]


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## ffnc

Just wanted to give a quick update. It was brought to our attention that the neighbors hadn't pulled any permits for the work they had done clearing the land. They haven't worked there for several months and we were starting to see a lot of run off and erosion We met with the soil conservation officer a couple of weeks ago and she said the neighbors had to have a plan on file for clearing that much land. 

Several days ago they hauled away the land clearing equipment, today they came and pulled all of the flags they had marked for the road on our property line. It appears they have subdivided the land into two huge tracts.

I don't know if this is good news or bad news! They still haven't contacted us, I'm pretty sure now they're just going to leave it as is, a giant, muddy, half completed, clear cut mess!


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## tarbe

Wow. I guess only time will tell!

At least things do not appear to have gotten worse for you!


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## fordy

ffnc said:


> Just wanted to give a quick update. It was brought to our attention that the neighbors hadn't pulled any permits for the work they had done clearing the land. They haven't worked there for several months and we were starting to see a lot of run off and erosion We met with the soil conservation officer a couple of weeks ago and she said the neighbors had to have a plan on file for clearing that much land.
> 
> Several days ago they hauled away the land clearing equipment, today they came and pulled all of the flags they had marked for the road on our property line. It appears they have subdivided the land into two huge tracts.
> 
> I don't know if this is good news or bad news! They still haven't contacted us, I'm pretty sure now they're just going to leave it as is, a giant, muddy, half completed, clear cut mess!


 ............If the ground next to your property line has been turned over then it may be just right for Cultivation ! I'd find the fastest growing species of bamboo available and plant a whole row on their property . You can water it at night and watch it grow . , fordy:idea:


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## ffnc

Just posted an update to this mess. Water Runoff
_Does anyone have any experience dealing with water run off from neighboring land? We are a small 5 acre farm next to a 33 acre piece of land that was clear cut a couple of years ago. 10 acres of the land right next to us was bulldozed to clear a pad for a place to live and stumps were flipped, all of this is on higher ground. About a year ago they stopped working and it's been sitting. Also, when the loggers cleared it they did not leave adequate buffers on the intermittent streams, now the streams are overwhelmed with water, new ones are forming, we have standing water everywhere, our market garden is a soggy mess, and we've had large old trees fall because of erosion. 2 big ones took down our pasture fence as well as several other trees. Now our porch is flooding, we have a new unwanted pond and during the last rain we had 2 literal rivers. One is new this winter and it gets bigger every time it rains. This has never happened in the 8 years we've lived in the house.

Even though they've left us with a giant sh*t sandwich, they still called us up and asked us to let them connect to our electricity because they have no other way to access it. It would mean a very long utility easement across most of our property. We offered to do it in exchange for a 50 ft buffer the length of our property (about an acre) so we could replant trees. They never responded. We also offered to buy a buffer a long time ago, they said yes and then blew us off. A few months ago they showed up at our house asking again for access to power, we reminded them of our previous offer but they said there is now an easement right on our property line so they can't give us a buffer. We said sorry, we couldn't work with them and we explained the troubles we were having with water run off. We were nice about it but firm. We're pretty fed up with the whole mess and all their games.

Because of all the water problems we went to see a lawyer. He said we do have a case against them for damages so we're going to try again sending them a letter to see if they'll agree to a swap of land for power with the water damages as leverage. Have any of you gone through something like this? Any suggestions, thoughts, outcomes? I want to have a decent relationship with these people because they're our neighbors but I feel like they've pushed us around enough. I've posted about them before when we were trying to figure out the utility easement. Looking back now, that was the least of our problems! _


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## Declan

ffnc said:


> Just posted an update to this mess. Water Runoff
> _Does anyone have any experience dealing with water run off from neighboring land? _


_

In my state, adjoining property owners owe you no duty to prevent water from coming onto your land and can even direct surface water to run onto your land if they want. I get quite a bit of surface water crossing my back yard because two houses up a prior owner piped a drain ditch and did a crap job. The pipe is too small and it runs from a slope to a long straight run so water slows down in the pipe and causes it to flood out onto the surface on the upstream end. Add to that the water from 3 properties up the hill that used to make it into the ditch on that property now just keep on coming down the hill toward me on the surface._


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## tree-farmer

I don't know what the rules are where you live but if you want to burn large slash piles around here you need to apply for a burning reference number with some government department. It expires after x amount of days. You must refer to the venting index which is published every morning and you can only burn near where people live if it is good venting today and at least fair tomorrow.
It's complaint driven though. If someone is burning illegally and nobody complains, nobody gets in trouble.


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## ffnc

Declan said:


> In my state, adjoining property owners owe you no duty to prevent water from coming onto your land and can even direct surface water to run onto your land if they want. I get quite a bit of surface water crossing my back yard because two houses up a prior owner piped a drain ditch and did a crap job. The pipe is too small and it runs from a slope to a long straight run so water slows down in the pipe and causes it to flood out onto the surface on the upstream end. Add to that the water from 3 properties up the hill that used to make it into the ditch on that property now just keep on coming down the hill toward me on the surface.


i hear what you're saying and i've heard that in some states especially out west where lack of water is issue that is the case. I think here on the east coast it's different and the landowner who is causing the run off has to take a little more responsibility.


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## 1948CaseVAI

I doubt it is "your" transformer and I suspect the electric utility can connect and run lines however they want. I doubt any state would allow you to block the other land from being connected to utilities. You don't want to get into an eminent domain situation but you could if you try to refuse. Many people mistakenly think that eminent domain is only for public projects - not true. 

In my state you cannot deny a "landlocked" landowner access across your property if that is the only way to access the property, but since the loggers cut a road I suppose it is not really landlocked.

The logging company probably told the owners you were hard to work with and that would explain a bit of their attitude. Clear cutting was their choice and unless you are willing to let them tell you what to do with your land you need to forget about it and not let that cloud your thinking toward them. Be glad they are not starting something awful like a gravel pit or land fill.

If I was getting new neighbors I would try to get along. Once you start hostilities there will be no end and you will be miserable. Life is easier when you accommodate others, particularly when that accommodation costs you nothing.


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## ffnc

They could get it from other locations but the cost would be prohibitive. Is and our neighbor next door (who also told them no) are the only reasonable financial options. They are also not landlocked anymore, they built a mile long road when they logged. We also had a great relationship with the father, and we've been nothing but kind, but firm. And as for the loggers they were total bullies and tried to push us around, not the other way around


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