# Interesting...Ether



## wagvan

I was watching a Vet show on Nat Geo Wild and the Vet (Dr Pol) said that Ether is really expensive since it is controlled, so he uses Starter fluid since it is almost all ether anyway. Not something I would use everyday, but I saw it an I thought "hmmm. Good info to file away for SHTF." You guys have permanently corrupted me.:hysterical: He said it works really well. (They showed him using it on a calf) So I'm wondering the practicalities for humans in a SHTF situation. If it was a matter of someone dying or not and no medical care available, it seems like a reasonable thing to know. I'm wondering if starter fluid has something in it that is toxic to humans and how one might use it. I remember the old MASH episodes where they would drip ether on a cloth mask for the person to inhale. Now where to find the info to print out for TEOTW...


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## Bearfootfarm

> I'm wondering if starter fluid has something in it that is toxic to humans


The ingredients should be on the label

Medical facilities would use PURE Ether


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## Pelenaka

Your like me always wonder what new applications I can come up with for everyday items.
Here's a link I found _Use of Ether & Chloroform during the Civil War _ old school or rather non-electric preparedness method. It's primary drawback is nausea which might lead to vomiting (aspiration pneumonia), also have some sort of suction machine or device to clear the mouth (plastic turkey baster) & the ability to position the patient quickly & appropriately on side or with head elevated. Ideally patient would be npo (nothing by mouth) for over 12 hours before surgery but if your doing surgery then nothing is ideal about it.

I did a swag search on making ether for those days when you run out of starter fluid but still have surgery to preform, I also found a link that had ether as a component of meth but I'm not sure if that's accurate. I didn't investigate further.

Wonder what the shelf life is for starter fluid ?


~~ pelenaka ~~
http://thirtyfivebyninety.blogspot.com/


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## Bearfootfarm

> Wonder what the shelf life is for starter fluid ?


It appears YOUR life is what you should be worried about:



> The &#8220;water extraction&#8221; method is ineffective in separating diethyl ether from the *volatile hydrocarbon liquids/gases in &#8220;starter fluid*&#8221;. Our understanding of the literature is that there is *no such thing as safe use *of volatile hydrocarbon gases: their psychoactive effects are inseparable from nerve and organ damage.]



I think it's not worth the risk


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## 7thswan

Ether was attempted(another story) on my Mom during ww2, it's very dangerous. Once as a kid my parents used it on 2 of our dogs that had gotten into a porcupine, to pull the quills out.


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## Guest

It's my understanding that not all starter sprays are ether so read the label very carefully.

Having said that I suppose if it came down to a "we do this and they MAY die or we don't do this and they die FOR SURE" then I'd give it a try.

But it would have to be that dire before I'd try it.


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## unregistered29228

7thswan said:


> Ether was attempted(another story) on my Mom during ww2, it's very dangerous. Once as a kid my parents used it on 2 of our dogs that had gotten into a porcupine, to pull the quills out.


I remember in the early 70s my father had a small can of ether and put a cat to sleep with some on a cotton ball. The cat had a parasitic worm growing in his neck, and Dad pulled it out - one of the grosser memories of my childhood. The cat was nearly unconscious and recovered just fine. But I'm sure 40 years later that you can't just go buy a can of ether. :sob:


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## Mrs. Jo

Don't use starter fluid to put anything down that you plan to eat. (in fact I don't recommend it at all.) Some practical joker told us about this when we were first starting out with goats and had to butcher one (before we had a 22) and it does not work, and it ruins the meat. The smell and taste came through. I wouldn't trust it.


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## ryanthomas

I just looked up the MSDS of the stuff I use (Pyroil) and it's only 11-21% ether. Then I found that premium starting fluids are 40-60%. The rest is a mixture of things like heptane, butane, propane...not stuff you really want to inhale. Heptane I know is some nasty stuff. But if it comes down to the need to anesthetize someone, you've got bigger problems so it's worth knowing. If you squirt some premium starting fluid in a jar to an inch or so and then add an equal amount of water and stir it around and let it sit for a few minutes, the ether will be more concentrated on top. Use a syringe or a bulb irrigator or something to take the liquid off the top and you should have a somewhat safer version to use. Chemistry is fun, isn't it?


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## Sawmill Jim

ryanthomas said:


> I just looked up the MSDS of the stuff I use (Pyroil) and it's only 11-21% ether. Then I found that premium starting fluids are 40-60%. The rest is a mixture of things like heptane, butane, propane...not stuff you really want to inhale. Heptane I know is some nasty stuff. But if it comes down to the need to anesthetize someone, you've got bigger problems so it's worth knowing. If you squirt some premium starting fluid in a jar to an inch or so and then add an equal amount of water and stir it around and let it sit for a few minutes, the ether will be more concentrated on top. Use a syringe or a bulb irrigator or something to take the liquid off the top and you should have a somewhat safer version to use. Chemistry is fun, isn't it?


And watch out for sparks or an open flame too :cowboy:


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## Pelenaka

Bearfootfarm said:


> It appears YOUR life is what you should be worried about:
> I think it's not worth the risk



As Alan wrote, " Having said that I suppose if it came down to a "we do this and they MAY die or we don't do this and they die FOR SURE" then I'd give it a try".

Exactly.

So I'll be filing this away in my medical binder and hopefully I will never have to find out just how nauseous or the more dire side effect of ether can be.

ryanthomas, that's a great tip thanks. 


~~ pelenaka ~~


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## hsmom2four

Pelenaka said:


> I also found a link that had ether as a component of meth but I'm not sure if that's accurate. I didn't investigate further.


Ether is used in making meth as is brake fluid. I asked my dh if he had to show ID and fill out of form to buy either of these like you do when you buy certain cold medicines and he said not the last time he bought some. We keep ether around for starting engines but I had forgotten about it being used as an anesthetic. Thanks for the reminder.


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## Jean in Virginia

I've used starter fluid to euthanize parakeets and a tumorous rat, but at the time one brand had ether as the first ingredient, the other did not.

Works great on small animals that need to go. Ziplock bag, paper towel, one or two breaths and they're gone.


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## Bearfootfarm

I haven't confirmed it, but I've read that *John Deere *starting fluid is 80% ether


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## Txrider

wagvan said:


> I was watching a Vet show on Nat Geo Wild and the Vet (Dr Pol) said that Ether is really expensive since it is controlled, so he uses Starter fluid since it is almost all ether anyway. Not something I would use everyday, but I saw it an I thought "hmmm. Good info to file away for SHTF." You guys have permanently corrupted me.:hysterical: He said it works really well. (They showed him using it on a calf) So I'm wondering the practicalities for humans in a SHTF situation. If it was a matter of someone dying or not and no medical care available, it seems like a reasonable thing to know. I'm wondering if starter fluid has something in it that is toxic to humans and how one might use it. I remember the old MASH episodes where they would drip ether on a cloth mask for the person to inhale. Now where to find the info to print out for TEOTW...


It's gonna depend.. From what I know most starting fluid is about 20% ether though a few go up to 60%, the rest is heptane, butane, propane or something else. Last resort stuff IMO.. A few whiffs of those chems isn't likely to kill ya I don't think, but aren't going to do ya no favors.


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## Ed Norman

Bearfootfarm said:


> I haven't confirmed it, but I've read that *John Deere *starting fluid is 80% ether


And 20% bad surprises..


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## Cascade Failure

As one of my paramedics likes to joke with the younger nurses, "Does this rag smell like ether to you?"


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## puddlejumper007

i had to put down an old rooster once, i put him in a plastic bag sprayed starting fluid in there , it happened real fast and he was gone. best thing i could have done for him...


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## puddlejumper007

humm. maybe i better clairfy that post...that old rooster was a chicken....


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## mink

i suppose it would work better than hitting somebody in the head with a hammer to knock them out,lol


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## Forest

On the plus side, it seems to have a large therapeutic window (=harder to accidentally kill the patient), has little effect on breathing and cardiovascular function, and is a very potent anesthetic and muscle relaxant. Do not use in bronchitis, pneumonia (it increases mucous secretion), liver and kidney disease, hyperthyroidism and shock.


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## Pelenaka

Cascade Failure said:


> As one of my paramedics likes to joke with the younger nurses, "Does this rag smell like ether to you?"


:hysterical: an oldie but a goodie. 

I did an amazon search, four separate pages for scientific ether. 3 are liquid form, one is a 5 gallon pail. No prices all listings aren't in stock. 


~~ pelenaka ~~


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## secretcreek

wagvan said:


> I was watching a Vet show on Nat Geo Wild and the Vet (Dr Pol) said that Ether is really expensive since it is controlled, so he uses Starter fluid since it is almost all ether anyway. Not something I would use everyday, but I saw it an I thought "hmmm. Good info to file away for SHTF." You guys have permanently corrupted me.:hysterical: He said it works really well. (They showed him using it on a calf)


I read this thread the other day and mentally filed the Starter Fluid info away for future reference, and that was that... I almost never watch tv anymore, save for Walking Dead and an occasional show one of my son's may have on. But this morning I was flipping through the channels and saw a Nat Geo show called Dr Pol and I recalled this thread so I hung around to see the guy.

:happy:

I kept watching and the interior of the clinic looked familiar to me. I watched a bit more and sure enough I've been there... My daughter and I had taken a kid goat to this guy about four yrs ago when I was visiting my parents up in mid-Michigan. COOL! The folks at the clinic were very kind and helpful to me an out of towner with a scouring goat kid we were hauling around with us- weird story and all...they treated my goat kid and he quit scouring.

-scrt crk


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## Lizza

My daughter is a pre-vet student and does job shadowing with large animal vets, so she of course wanted to watch the show. I really liked it, I don't watch a lot of TV. 

I think he was using the ether (aka starter fluid) to apply to the splint wrapping, not to knock the calf out. He has plenty of drugs to easily make the calf loopy with just a shot. I thought he said it was because it was an easy way to make the wrap stick but without sticking to the hair, so the farmer could easily take it off when it was time remove it from a half wild calf.


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## Lizza

http://www.zoenature.org/2011/10/days-in-the-life-of-a-country-vet/

Found this link on him, I hope I am that active at 70!


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## uhcrandy

Ether is a good anesthetic from the standpoint that there are some very obvious stages of anesthesia, so you can judge how far under the patient is. It horrible for the pts. They all get sick/vomit. They all have headaches and feel like crap for days. There is also the issue that its very explosive.


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## Zipporah

Wonder if this why the vet that operated on my beloved collie killed him?


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## secretcreek

Collies for some reason are super sensitive to medicines...sorry for the loss of your pet.
-scrt crk


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## kenworth

Starter fluid can make you loopy very quickly.

Sometimes we have to shoot it under the hood to get the diesel truck running. IDK where they shoot it (and I don't care cuz I don't do maintenance, lol), but it comes into the cab and gives me an instant head rush. Roll down windows and suck fresh air into lungs FAST!!!

I think if I need to be anesthetised I would go for liquor instead of starting fluid, but that's just me.


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## ryanthomas

Liquor works great for very minor things like sutures, but it would take a whole lot of it to put me under enough to do any kind of surgery.


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## Pelenaka

ryanthomas said:


> Liquor works great for very minor things like sutures, but it would take a whole lot of it to put me under enough to do any kind of surgery.


If memory serves me well the down side to hitting the bottle before a medical procedure is that you become a bleeder - alcohol thins the blood as does aspirin. But then again if that's all you have :buds:

Don't forget to save a swig for the person doing the sewing, afterwards of course. 



~~ pelenaka ~~
http://thirtyfivebyninety.blogspot.com/


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## Drcooper

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## Drcooper

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## Drcooper

wagvan said:


> I was watching a Vet show on Nat Geo Wild and the Vet (Dr Pol) said that Ether is really expensive since it is controlled, so he uses Starter fluid since it is almost all ether anyway. Not something I would use everyday, but I saw it an I thought "hmmm. Good info to file away for SHTF." You guys have permanently corrupted me.:hysterical: He said it works really well. (They showed him using it on a calf) So I'm wondering the practicalities for humans in a SHTF situation. If it was a matter of someone dying or not and no medical care available, it seems like a reasonable thing to know. I'm wondering if starter fluid has something in it that is toxic to humans and how one might use it. I remember the old MASH episodes where they would drip ether on a cloth mask for the person to inhale. Now where to find the info to print out for TEOTW...


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## Drcooper

There several Starting Fluids with 80% ether. John Deere is 80%, however, my favorite is 
Champion 4580k 80% ether profession grade. I bought two 11 oz cans for $5 and change each. Here is a link if you are interested
(Champion 4580K 80% Ether Professional Grade Starting Fluid). There are several YouTube videos describing the distillation processes of producing 100% Ethel from starting fluid. If you are interested. The draw back is that 100% Ether is extremely volatile. After a period of a few months it will begin to breakdown into peroxide’s...then blow up. 
100% ether is not practical to make and store for an emergency. I believe you would be better off using the 80% ethers very carefully with your “patient”. I’m certain none of us hope for performing DIY surgeries! However, it is wise to be prepared for what ever the world throws at us.


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## RenaissanceMan

I registered for this forum to thank some people for providing useful information, and to provide some for others. I am one of the few people who isn't a crusty old medical man or veterinarian who has actually done ether anesthesia to perform a planned surgery. I did a ton of research prior to doing it, and wouldn't have attempted it at all if I weren't extremely comfortable with detail work, not squeamish about blood, and knowledgeable about bodies and medicine, so what I did may not be something you could do, but I can share some of what I learned in the hopes that if someone ever is in a genuine emergency the patient may have a better chance of survival.

First things first: I did something that most people would say is totally nuts. Planning to perform a DIY surgery, even on an animal, simply because you can is definitely not something that I would recommend other people do. This thread is about what is possible if the need arises in an emergency, and I believe that what I learned from my experience, and the research that went into it, may help someone who is in that situation in the future. Still, when one reads a thread like this, one knows that someone is going to try it at some point, maybe just because they think they can, and you're not going to talk them out of it, because they're sure they can do it. I guess I just described myself.  Well, I did do it, and if I can't talk you out of doing it by making it sound really involved, intricate, risky, and stressful, all of which things it actually is, at least I can give you some information to make you more likely to have a good outcome. But remember, anesthesia with any agent has risks, even done by professionals in a clinical setting, and if bad things happen, you won't be able to give the ideal care to help it in your home, and the patient is more likely to die than they would be in a medical facility. Any time anyone anesthetizes a patient, they are taking the patient's life into their hands. It's not something anyone should do lightly. Take it seriously and do it to the absolute best of your ability to give them the best chance of having a long, happy life after anesthesia.

My patient was a cat. Unbeknownst to me, his paw had gotten seriously infected and part of the paw flesh and several toes died. Other people, including one with DVM in her title, were supposedly solving the problem while I was away. By the time I saw it, it was necrotic. All the skin on the top of the paw, three toes, and some of the flesh in between had died and rotted. The DVM who let it happen was not getting another dime simply on principle, and the emergency hospital who saw him on Saturday proposed a $1200-1700 treatment with $150 sedated daily bandage changes for a week, or $2000 to amputate the limb immediately since there was in their opinion only a 50/50 chance of it healing properly. Not being made of money, the only veterinary option we could afford was amputation of the limb by a crusty old semi-retired veterinarian, and that was completely unacceptable to the cat's 12-year-old owner, my daughter.

However, in between seeing the emergency people and Dr. Crusty, I removed the necrotic tissue myself, and with careful dressing and some antibiotics from the vets, the infection had cleared and the paw was showing healing. The remaining problem was three bones, left over from the missing toes, which had lost significant flesh cover and would have protruded from the healed paw if left that way. I was hoping Dr. Crusty would remove them. By the time Dr. Crusty looked at it, the infection was gone, there was ample evidence of significant healing, and to me it seemed like a real crying shame to amputate when his little body was trying so hard to repair it, but after a short, unfruitful discussion Dr. Crusty said something along the lines of "I can amputate the limb. If you want something else done, do it yourself." Well, I must be related to the little red hen, because I sure enough went and did it myself.

I can appreciate why he didn't wish to remove those three tiny bones; doing so was a complete pain, and he was certainly correct that the recovery time and care would have been much shorter and easier for limb amputation than trying to save the paw. Once it heals, assuming it does, (surgery was yesterday) we will probably have to do a little physical therapy on him because his wrist has gotten stiff from disuse, but we're willing to do that. We all really love this cat, and it is very important to my daughter to have as much of her cat remain attached to it as is possible, and personally I believe he'll be able to use the paw again, so it's worth the effort. Now having explained why I did it, let me explain how I did it, and what I'd have done differently if I were doing it again. I won't detail the actual surgery because it's off-topic and only relevant to my patient's specific situation, plus it's pretty obvious. Here are my top things you need to know if you're going to attempt ether anesthesia. Some of it is gleaned from research (it's amazing how much published medical literature is online for a drug that ceased widespread clinical use 60 years ago), some of it I already knew, and some of it is things I learned from actually doing it.

1. If you hope your patient has a good life after anesthesia, get the right stuff! Not just any starting fluid will do. I chose the John Deere version because the MSDS indicated it was mostly ether (80-90%), with a little purified propane, carbon dioxide, and oil. The non-ether ingredients are relatively inert, so that's a mixture I was comfortable wouldn't get me a bad result from using, as @Ed Norman aptly stated, 20% bad surprises. The fact that I have a John Deere dealership nearby made it a very easily obtainable choice as well. I couldn't find an MSDS that I was certain pertained to the Champion product @Drcooper was advocating here, but the one I did find indicated that most of the rest of it was heptane. Heptane is a very bad surprise. While it is also an effective anesthetic, it is much more toxic and very likely to cause serious organ damage. It puts more pressure toward "may die" (and also possible brain damage) than I like even in a catastrophic situation, and I would never dream of using a product with significant heptane as an anesthetic in any situation that allowed for even a little planning and preparation. If you're going to buy something to have on hand in case a situation arises, get something with the least dangerous non-ether components you can find.

2. Be gentle with your dosing when inducing anesthesia, especially at first. Ether is a powerful irritant, and if you give too much too fast you can induce laryngeospasm (clenching of the airways) or even shock. A common method for administering ether at one time was a mask with a hole into which a cotton ball with ether was placed. A very improvised version of this is how I kept my patient fully anesthetized during the operation. Because my patient was a cat, I chose to use a variation of the induction method used on research mice by placing the cat and an ethered rag in a clear plastic lidded storage bin with a blanket in the bottom to make him more comfortable. He's a very calm cat and likes being in boxes and containers, so this was a natural choice for him, but may or may not be suitable for your potentially furry patient. I didn't put a lot in at first, but he started to drool almost immediately, a side effect of the ether, so I knew it was enough that he could start absorbing it. Once he started to respond, I increased the amount of ether a little, but still not more than a short-ish squirt at a time, and of course letting some fresh air into the box by opening the lid. Ether induction in medical facilities (once medicine got more sophisticated about it) was done with 10% ether in air, and I tried to achieve that ratio, though not especially scientifically; you can't be completely scientific when you're measuring in squirts from an aerosol can, but keep the volume of the container in mind if you're doing it this way. Once the patient starts to show response to the ether, the muscle relaxant properties make them more tolerant of the ether, but you still don't want to shock their system with it. Induction of anesthesia with ether can take some time, (my patient took about 45 minutes to reach full anesthesia) and the temptation to increase the concentration to decrease the wait time is very real, but also dangerous. In an emergency this could be a chance you need to take, but realize the risk.

3. Prepare yourself mentally for the process. It is nothing like what happens in the movies. I am so glad that I found something from 1937 online that told me what to expect, because otherwise I'd have thought my little patient was having a bad reaction. They will not slowly drop off to sleep. In between normal patient and anesthetized patient is disoriented, agitated patient. They will become less coordinated as the ether takes effect, but will struggle and complain. It feels like you're torturing them, but according to old human studies, at this point they are already partially anesthetized and cannot feel or remember anything, so keep the need in mind and let them absorb more ether until they are fully anesthetized and you can proceed to the needed treatment. Do make sure the patient doesn't do himself any harm during this stage.

4. Manage the patient carefully while they are under anesthesia. They cannot swallow, and if you allow their saliva to build up in their airways, they can choke on it. This is true with all anesthetics and this is why hospitals use spit sucker machines on anesthetized patients. Since you probably won't have one, keep their head pointed in a direction where their saliva runs out of their mouth instead of back into their airways. Sideways and slightly down should work in most cases. It would be smart to have a suction device of some sort on hand, like a turkey baster or baby nose bulb, in case you need to remove some manually. (Be careful not to gag them if you do.) Clearing their mouth, either by suction or by positioning them mouth-down, before ending anesthesia is a good idea. Keep them warm; their body may not heat itself adequately while under anesthesia. I had my little patient on my assistant's lap with a towel over him to keep him warm. Don't use an off-the-shelf heating pad; they can get much too hot, and your patient won't be able to do anything about it except get burned or cooked. Also, know that while it is uncommon, patients occasionally vomit while under anesthesia. You need to be prepared to clear their mouth to keep them from choking on vomit, if it occurs. This is much less of a risk if the patient has been fasting for 10-12 hours before anesthesia, but in an emergency situation, this likely will not be the case.

5. If you need your patient to stay completely anesthetized and still for more than 20 or 30 seconds, plan to keep administering ether after induction through a mask, even if you didn't induce that way. I learned that the hard way when my little patient kept going back into agitation so many seconds after I removed him from the ether. I had been led by my research to believe that I would have 5-10 minutes of anesthesia to work on him from induction without continued administration of ether, but neglected to realize that they must have been counting the partial anesthesia stage in this time frame. While it's true that the patient is still anesthetized and won't feel pain, it's also true that they will make the procedure more difficult and possibly dangerous by wiggling and writhing. Because I made it out of things at hand, my mask was a bandage wrap core, and my cotton ball was actually a wad of paper towel. It worked well enough, but had I realized in advance that it would be needed, I could have had something better ready. My strategy to avoid overdosing him was to wait until he started to wiggle ever so slightly to add more ether to the vaporizer material in his mask. This way I was sure I wasn't giving him more than was actually needed to keep him still, which is important because too much will stop their breathing and their heart. Outside of a hospital, that's a dead patient every time. However, there is a lot more ether required to get to that point than to anesthesia, so if you're dosing responsively, as I did, rather than just pouring on the ether constantly, you shouldn't get anywhere near that much into the patient. In the absence of precise metering equipment that can give the patient a continually-measured dose corresponding to their body weight, this uses the patient's own body as an indicating device. The hazard is that if you (or preferably your assistant) can't administer the ether immediately when the little wiggles start, they will quickly become big wiggles and possibly interfere with the procedure.

6. Plan for the hazards of the ether. Its primary physical hazard is that it is explosive, so if you use it indoors without care to remove all ignition sources and ensure ventilation, you may very well cause an explosion. Its explosiveness is one of the reasons why it fell out of favor in hospitals in the 1960s; it was simply too dangerous to use a gas so explosive around all the electrical gadgets that were rapidly filling hospitals by that time. Its primary chemical hazard is that it can do to you exactly what it is doing to your patient, and that's not good. Using it in a poorly ventilated area can expose you to enough of it that you'll get loopy, or even partially anesthetized, which would be very bad, because then you can't help your patient properly. Because it was so cold when we performed our little operation, we did it in a laundry room with a functioning heat register, the door to the house closed, and the door to a very large garage open. The ether never got very strong in the room. Even so, bending over my patient, I got enough to notice, and my poor assistant, whose head was less than 2 feet from the patient's head, got enough that he got a little loopy by the end, though he stayed focused and we got it done. Ventilation is key to avoiding this; just be sure your ventilation doesn't involve an electric motor that will be an ignition source! If you're using an electric fan to help with ventilation, make it push fresh air in, not ethered air out. Also, don't put the ether liquid on any part of your patient directly! It doesn't help, and could cause an injury.

7. Plan to care for your patient after the need for anesthesia is over. The patient will need to be kept in position to keep their airways clear of saliva until they regain the ability to move, and hence swallow, but know that even though your patient will appear awake, they are not really awake yet. It may be some hours before they are themselves again; this doesn't mean that you caused brain damage, but only that they are still partially anesthetized, and partial anesthesia with ether causes disorientation and agitation. Any anesthetic takes some time to completely leave a patient's system. They will return to themselves eventually, but you may have to protect them from themselves in the meantime. Depending on the nature of the operation, care may have to be taken to prevent them from doing themselves additional injury during this time from their somewhat random and sometimes forceful movements. They will also almost certainly vomit, and while that's not particularly dangerous once the patient regains movement, it can be a big mess if the patient wasn't fasting. Also, know that ether anesthesia leaves a terrible hangover; this is one of the other reasons it is not used much anymore. Your patient may not feel really right again for days, although the length of time this takes will vary a great deal from patient to patient and depend a lot on their general health. Plan for the patient to have extra help available for a few days if needed even if the procedure was minor.

8. Have an assistant! I could not have had the successful outcome I did without my fine assistant. He was the one who ensured that sufficient additional ether was administered to maintain anesthesia until the procedure was finished, as well as keeping the little patient warm and drained. You don't have enough hands to do it all yourself. Find an assistant who can take care of some of the peripheral issues, particularly maintaining anesthesia, so you can focus on the procedure you're supposed to be performing. A DIY surgeon needs a DIY anesthesiologist, and I'm very grateful to mine.

My little patient was himself again by early the next morning, having slept off the ether, and kept his meals and medications in himself where they belonged all day, which is excellent. Now we wait for healing to show how successful the procedure was. He has good pain medication and antibiotics from the vets, so his post-operative care will be identical to what he would have received had someone with DVM after their name performed the surgery. I say that to make the people who would worry about that feel better. He's not suffering. He's getting excellent care.

Some final thoughts:
•If you're going to perform surgery yourself, whatever the reason, don't be rusty razor blade about it just because your anesthetic comes from a tractor dealership. Follow good sanitary practices; at a minimum, wash your hands, sanitize your instruments, which should be clean and sharp, and have sanitary ways to remove the blood and such. There's no such thing as minor surgery, and the biggest risk of any surgery, even done by professionals, is infection. Do whatever you can to reduce that risk. If you can get them, the patient should be on antibiotics for at least a few days after surgery.
•Whoever suggested using ether to euthanize animals intended for food either had never done it but only heard about it, or was trolling you. My little patient had garage breath for hours after his operation because his body was so full of ether, and he only received enough to cause anesthesia. Obviously an animal who gets enough of it to end them is going to smell and taste like ether in a big way.
•To the person whose mother had a bad experience during the war, my condolences on your mother's suffering. Anesthesia is never without risks, even when done perfectly, and if someone tried to do it with the nearest random can of starting fluid, it likely contained enough "bad surprises" to explain any number of horrific outcomes. I hope she came out OK in the end. I am curious as to the story, but not prying if you're not comfortable sharing it.

Having possibly just written the most TL;DR post ever written in this forum, I must go to bed. Hopefully this information will make someone's life better, even if it's only by making someone chuckle at how crazy I am.


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## Danaus29

@RenaissanceMan , WOW is about all I can say. I would not have tried what you did. I hope your cat recovers.


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## RenaissanceMan

Danaus29 said:


> @RenaissanceMan , WOW is about all I can say. I would not have tried what you did. I hope your cat recovers.


Thank you for the well wishes for the cat. He's a very special guy. He came through the operation perfectly, and now we're all cheering for his paw to heal.

I did realize today that I am a little crazy in my willingness to attempt doing things myself simply because they need doing. I have a really good success rate, too. Hopefully this will go in the successes column.  My ego doesn't need that, but a sweet kitty could sure use it.


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## RenaissanceMan

Pelenaka said:


> If memory serves me well the down side to hitting the bottle before a medical procedure is that you become a bleeder - alcohol thins the blood as does aspirin. But then again if that's all you have :buds:
> 
> Don't forget to save a swig for the person doing the sewing, afterwards of course.
> 
> 
> 
> ~~ pelenaka ~~
> thirtyfivebyninety


Your memory is good. That is one reason why ether is a better anesthetic than alcohol; while the high dose effect on the nervous system is similar, ether causes significantly less interference with other important bodily functions. Your patient will have a bad hangover either way, but the operation will be less risky with ether.

I did consider using alcohol anesthesia on the cat early in the saga, and did actually give him a few milliliters of vodka mixed with milk to 13% ABV so it didn't burn going down to take the edge off the removal of dead stuff. It definitely helped him to not mind us monkeying with his sore paw, but I didn't believe that alcohol anesthesia was a viable option for surgery, partly because it was so difficult to get into him. I had to syringe it into his mouth like any other cat medicine; at no useful concentration would he drink it willingly. Even at 6% ABV, which is mostly milk, the odor repulsed him and he wouldn't even take one lick. The difficulty of administration is a uniquely animal problem of course; many people are happy for an excuse to chug liquor, and most will do it even if they don't like it if there's a good reason to do so.

My other concern, the bigger one, was the difficulty of knowing how much was needed to achieve the desired effect without killing the little guy. Ether is much easier to administer to a furry patient, at least to a small one, and harder to accidentally administer a serious overdose because you see the effect immediately, and the patient's blood levels begin to drop immediately when you stop administering it, which is certainly not the case with alcohol, as anyone who has ever lost a loved one to binge drinking will tell you. Drinking until you lose consciousness is dangerous because you will still have unabsorbed alcohol in your stomach when you lose consciousness, and will continue to absorb it while unconscious. If you're drinking it very quickly, it is possible to have enough already in you that you lose consciousness and then die from alcohol poisoning. Many people have. That risk is the main reason why I decided early in the process that I would not use alcohol as anything more than a sedative on my little patient. Anything more was too risky for him. I would have calculated dosage based on a target BAC and his body weight and dosed carefully, something anyone considering using alcohol this way definitely should do, but it still would have been much riskier than what I did do, especially since BAC from a given ingestion varies from body to body based on physiological differences. In humans, women get roughly twice the BAC from a given amount of alcohol that men do because they have less blood to hold it. The worst of it is that while cats are about 6.5% blood by weight, dose response information is needed to determine an appropriate dose, and there is no published information on how much it takes to make a cat unconscious, only that alcohol is especially hard on their bodies and you really shouldn't give it to them. All things considered ether was much safer for my little patient, and had the side advantage of also being much easier.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

good write up , yes be careful like many products they took the good active ingredients out.

like you can't get a good strike anywhere match 

when I bought starting fluid last time I got Napa , they have starting fluid and premium starting fluid cans right next to each other it has More Ether and it is only 29.67% according to the MSDS

the less expensive can of Mac's starting fluid is only 16% by the MDSD I found for it 

while the John Deere indicates 80% eyther


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## RenaissanceMan

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> good write up , yes be careful like many products they took the good active ingredients out.
> 
> like you can't get a good strike anywhere match
> 
> when I bought starting fluid last time I got Napa , they have starting fluid and premium starting fluid cans right next to each other it has More Ether and it is only 29.67% according to the MSDS
> 
> the less expensive can of Mac's starting fluid is only 16% by the MDSD I found for it
> 
> while the John Deere indicates 80% eyther


Thank you for the compliment. I put a lot of time into it, both before in research and after, and am glad it is appreciated.

I was very glad that the Deere dealer could supply me what I needed. I had really hoped that Dr. Crusty would keep it from coming to that, but when it came time for plan S, I was prepared. Based on the research I did, they appear to offer the least hazardous product for spray can anesthesia.

@Danaus29 The cat is doing well. There were a lot of shed cells in his bandage yesterday, which I expected from the nature of the operation, but the paw is looking better and better and he seems to be feeling fine. If all goes well, he has several weeks of healing ahead before he can use the paw for anything but balance, but it is looking like he'll get there.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

last year I did a little farm surgery but I used 22cal anesthetic on the Ewe and recovered 3 lambs C-section that fed out fine on bottle 
given the Ewes condition it seemed like the best possible out come.

I never attempted anything with anesthesia.


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## RenaissanceMan

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> last year I did a little farm surgery but I used 22cal anesthetic on the Ewe and recovered 3 lambs C-section that fed out fine on bottle
> given the Ewes condition it seemed like the best possible out come.
> 
> I never attempted anything with anesthesia.


Disassembly is simple enough when you're not concerned about reassembly.  At any rate you got the lambs and some dinner out of the deal, so not an altogether bad outcome. Anesthesia on a pregnant mother is risky to the unborn, so you probably did the best thing for them.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

a friend once told me there are only 2 types of sheep

live sheep and dead sheep , because they are only worth what a vet trip costs. so unless it is a whole heard issue , culling is cheaper than calling the vet.

cows are different.

and yes I am mostly a disassembly specialist I cut wood and cull animals at the farm and handle predator management.(the farm isn't my day job) , other people have feeling for live stock , I don;t have feelings for my food.


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## RenaissanceMan

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> a friend once told me there are only 2 types of sheep
> 
> live sheep and dead sheep , because they are only worth what a vet trip costs. so unless it is a whole heard issue , culling is cheaper than calling the vet.
> 
> cows are different.
> 
> and yes I am mostly a disassembly specialist I cut wood and cull animals at the farm and handle predator management.(the farm isn't my day job) , other people have feeling for live stock , I don;t have feelings for my food.


The economics you describe explain it perfectly. Animals aren't my day job either. I like a plaque a customer has in his man cave: "If it has a name, it's a pet; otherwise it's dinner."  No sense getting attached to something you're planning to eat.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

@Danaus29 , the Ewe was in a seizure it was not really there ,just quivering on the ground , we moved her using the bucket of the tractor away from the other sheep which she didn't fight at all to a hay trailer were I could work at a better level , she wasn't even conscious to fight the ride. 

it was lose 1 or lose all we delivered 3 lambs and all lived sort of interesting 2 in one bag one in the other so I guess that is a pair of identical twins with a fraternal sibling.


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## Danaus29

@GREENCOUNTYPETE, I understand the situation. It's still sad that you lost the ewe.


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## NRA_guy

When I had my tonsils and adenoids removed back around 1954 when I was 8 years old, they used ether to put me to sleep. They put ether on a small cloth thing (like one of the face masks we used during the Covid pandemic) that covered my nose and mouth.

They said to count backwards from 100. I got to about 90 before I was asleep. I still remember the vivid dream I had while I was asleep.


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## RenaissanceMan

NRA_guy said:


> When I had my tonsils and adenoids removed back around 1954 when I was 8 years old, they used ether to put me to sleep. They put ether on a small cloth thing (like one of the face masks we used during the Covid pandemic) that covered my nose and mouth.
> 
> They said to count backwards from 100. I got to about 90 before I was asleep. I still remember the vivid dream I had while I was asleep.


You were one of the later people to have ether used on them in a medical facility. It wasn't long after this that they stopped using ether anesthesia in most of the world.

I always found it interesting that they had people count backwards from 100. It seems to me that they were using it as a way to tell when you got to the partial stage where you're not conscious but not fully stopped physically. I also wonder how continued administration was done in procedures like yours where something in the mouth was being customized. Of course, unless they told you or you saw them do it to someone else, you wouldn't know.


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