# Bit of an issue!



## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

So I am a farrier, and honestly I have only dealt with typical cases, such as white line disease and just trimming for horses with normal feet basically... However I have two horses at a rescue and they are on the euthenizing list due to their feet, however before they are subject to being put down I need a few other opinions before they do it just to see if they are managable. 

Both of them when lifting up their feet have unusual feet, the sole is completely dropped, which I assumed could be from coffin bone rotation. The white line is pretty much dead laminae at this point. I can litterally stick my hoof pick clear inside it beneath the sole and apply pressure but it doesn't seem to bother either of them. 

One of the mares feet are completely pancaked out, and the other ones front hooves has a **** look to them with the sloping. any suggestions?? I didn't want to just go in there and start knifing them out, or cutting them to a normal shape until I had some other opinions. I didn't really want to risk harming either one of them. Both of their dropped soles have quite a bit of bruising noticeable. 
I have some pictures but they really arent that great. 

Here are some images
Now one does have the **** foot look in the front, the other is pancaked out but under neath they both have the same problem. (I know the images arent that great)


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I'm not a farrier, never even played one on TV, but is there a reason why you can't trim the toe? Is that a silly question? 

Hopefully, Tiempo or Malinda will be on soon to help you.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

WHen a foot looks like that I thought the common thing to do was just that, trim and square off the toe and maybe wedge the heels--- but um I'm not a farrier either. All I can do is maintain a healthy hoof. If anything untoward happens I need to bring in an expert.

I guess this is why apprenticeships (or internships whatever) for practical professions like this are useful. Doesn't matter how much you read, some things come with experience.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Wow - those heels. That frog. I wonder if there is a retained (dead) sole that needs to come off.


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## paintpony (Jan 5, 2013)

I'm not a farrier. I've owned horses for over 20 yrs and am always learning something new.

This is what I see in these pics. Long toe, low heel, contracted heels and frog. Probably some thrush in there as well. 

What needs to be done in small increments each trimming every two weeks... bring the toe back, do a mustang roll, treat for thrush. If the horses are sore, use padding and boots. If the are getting grain, stop. Lots of good grass and hay. 

Here is a great website that will help you get those feet back into shape...
http://www.hoofrehab.com/


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

What is the general condition of the horses themselves ? are they stabled or pasture bound ? are their feet the worst of their afflictions ? weight /coat/eyes/ ??? You can't just look at a hoof and decide what to do with a whole horse ? it's hard enough to fight one battle but if you have multiple issues at one time makes it really tough . what state are they in and do you have pictures ?


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

I ask what state they are in because if the horses are in decent shape and average and have just got bad feet I would be willing to rehab them ,if they are to far away but just really need a chance to rehab I would be willing to cover reasonable costs to rehab them provided hey are adopted to a caring family willing and able to have them .


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Dropped soles, possible coffin bone rotation, white line disease, contracted heels, bruising, the frog in the off side picture- what is up with that? :yuck: 

Have there been any xrays? How lame are they? 

It looks like it might be more humane to put these two down than to let them go to someone that doesn't have the expertise to handle the issues.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Whats sad is that they are in the condition they are . No one has diagnosed these horses in anyway other than a farrier posting pictures to a forum and asking advice /opinions lets not just throw in the towel until we have the whole picture . old farmers have fixed worse . they don't need to be brought back to blue ribbon status just healthy enough to enjoy the latter years of their lives in a green pasture with good water .


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Grumpy old man said:


> Whats sad is that they are in the condition they are . No one has diagnosed these horses in anyway other than a farrier posting pictures to a forum and asking advice /opinions lets not just throw in the towel until we have the whole picture . old farmers have fixed worse . they don't need to be brought back to blue ribbon status just healthy enough to enjoy the latter years of their lives in a green pasture with good water .


How do you know that no one has diagnosed them? Most rescues will have a horse examined by a Vet as soon as it's brought in. It's the quality of life of the horse that is important, if it's in chronic pain the most humane thing to do is put it down.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Well... I'm looking at the horses legs in the picture and they don't exactly look as bad as the hooves so I have to ask about the rest of the horse and I did , if they are in their 20's and under weight ,anemic and just sour then the correct thing to do is euthanize them . but those don't look like 20 something year old legs and if they have a chance to be brought back they should get it , assuming they are ready for the needle soley by looking at a picture of their feet and not a complete assessment of the horse with no diagnosis and not being assessed by a vet is just wrong .IN MY OPINION ! And you have no information that they have been assessed by anyone .


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Grumpy old man said:


> Well... I'm looking at the horses legs in the picture and they don't exactly look as bad as the hooves so I have to ask about the rest of the horse and I did , if they are in their 20's and under weight ,anemic and just sour then the correct thing to do is euthanize them . but those don't look like 20 something year old legs and if they have a chance to be brought back they should get it , assuming they are ready for the needle soley by looking at a picture of their feet and not a complete assessment of the horse with no diagnosis and not being assessed by a vet is just wrong .IN MY OPINION ! And you have no information that they have been assessed by anyone .


You can look at a horse's legs and know how old they are? Wow. 

Lots of professional people can take a look at a hoof and say either it's going to cost too much to rehab these horses, if the coffin bone as rotated beyond a small degree, if the white line looks as advanced as it is and whatever is going on with that frog is just plain scary.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

The cost is negligible , If we base a life on cost were have we gone as a country , What may be too expensive to some may not be a factor to others , Care should never be based on cost ! Your assumimg a conclusion and have never seen even a picture of the animal


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Grumpy old man said:


> The cost is negligible , If we base a life on cost were have we gone as a country , What may be too expensive to some may not be a factor to others , Care should never be based on cost ! Your assumimg a conclusion and have never seen even a picture of the animal


Why? The animal that is most likely to be usable and adopted out should be saved and in order to do that the money needs to be spent on that goal. 

If a rescue is spending all it's money on horses that should be put down, it's not saving healthy horses that could be adopted out. Care should always be based on cost for a rescue.

We're talking about animals here, I'm a horse lover and have been for over 40 years, but they're animals, not people. Cost is always a factor. 

Yup, I'm basing my experience as a horse owner for 40+ years, plus the indication from the rescue that they on the euthanize list, and that those hooves have serious issues that can be seen with just pictures. I don't need to look at the rest of the horse.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

No age ,No idea of previous training, No information on the shelters ability to rehab these horses , No idea if they have been assessed by a vet , No idea of anything but you are assured they need to be euthanized just by a picture of their feet when you posted you are not a farrier ,and an out of work horse farmer ??? I have to ask why ?? i have offerd to rehab them or pay to have someone else rehab them if it is an option why is that a bad thing ?


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

I think the correct thing to do would be to ask the moderator to weigh in on the subject openly ?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Grumpy old man said:


> No age ,No idea of previous training, No information on the shelters ability to rehab these horses , No idea if they have been assessed by a vet , No idea of anything but you are assured they need to be euthanized just by a picture of their feet when you posted you are not a farrier ,and an out of work horse farmer ??? I have to ask why ?? i have offerd to rehab them or pay to have someone else rehab them if it is an option why is that a bad thing ?


The OP said that these two horses were on the euthanize list because of their feet. So, based on that information someone at the rescue has examined them and determined that the are rough enough shape to consider euthanization, correct? 

Go ahead and pay for the rehab, did I ever say you couldn't? Call the rescue and ask to adopt them and then tell back here what they said. 

I'm an out of work horse farmer because the market crashed and burned and it's very hard to sell good horses for what you have into the stud fee.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Grumpy old man said:


> I think the correct thing to do would be to ask the moderator to weigh in on the subject openly ?


Why? Because I disagree with you? I'm not personally attacking you, I'm not badgering you, I'm simply disagreeing with you.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

I would be more than happy to assist you with selling high quality horses to the correct buyers for no fee on my part . Many times there are not enough quality horses for the buyers that are out there .Provided you can give them what they are looking for and that's pretty easy .3-7 year olds broke to work on the ranch with no health issues on delivery will bring big money all day long . Real ranchers are only interested in ready to work horses day in and day out .


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Grumpy old man said:


> I would be more than happy to assist you with selling high quality horses to the correct buyers for no fee on my part . Many times there are not enough quality horses for the buyers that are out there .Provided you can give them what they are looking for and that's pretty easy .3-7 year olds broke to work on the ranch with no health issues on delivery will bring big money all day long . Real ranchers are only interested in ready to work horses day in and day out .


I bred Warmbloods and sold them as weanlings with no trouble at all until the slaughter ban and the economy tanked.

What's big money?


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Grumpy old man said:


> The cost is negligible , If we base a life on cost were have we gone as a country , What may be too expensive to some may not be a factor to others , Care should never be based on cost ! Your assumimg a conclusion and have never seen even a picture of the animal


My vet would LOVE you.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> The OP said that these two horses were on the euthanize list because of their feet. So, based on that information someone at the rescue has examined them and determined that the are rough enough shape to consider euthanization, correct?
> 
> Go ahead and have pay for the rehab, did I ever say you couldn't? Call the rescue and ask to adopt them and then tell back here what they said.
> 
> I'm an out of work horse farmer because the market crashed and burned and it's very hard to sell good horses for what you have into the stud fee.


Well, I'll agree that nothing about the OPs pictures suggest that there is no hope for these horses. However, obviously, there is no hope for rescue horses when there is no money behind the rescue organization or sponsors for individual rescue animals.

Certainly there is nothing worse than an inhumane death, an if there is neither funding nor expertise to help out, the best alternative is humane euthanasia.

I am not a farrier, but have a great one who continuously works with at least one rescue organization (and a prison program). He might not consider these cases hopeless, and most likely there are options (and, based on x-rays, might not be all that desperate). But he would agree that the worst death is a sinking founder, and if that is likely (for whatever reason), euthanizing would be better.

ETA: sorry! To the OP - if possible, see if you can get another farrier to help out to assess the situation. It would be a shame for the horses to be euthanized when there is a reasonable alternative. Even though my farrier has been practicing for years, he still works as an apprentice one day/month with a master farrier and does a few days pro bono with a rescue, so he sees all kinds of crazy situations. If you can get another farrier like that to weigh in - it might just save these horse's lives.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

I know more multi millionaire farmers in east Tn wearing old boots and overalls than I did millionaires in Florida wearing slacks and polo shirts .


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Grumpy old man said:


> Real money for quality 1/4's is $1,500.00 to $3,500.00 and you don't have to wait to get paid they will buy before you are done and hound you for more if the first are good to great .Warmbloods require way to much training to get to the show ring and they better place and you have to wait for "suzzies" mom to pony up the money to buy it ,those are specialty horses and the market is saturated with good horses by premium breeders with a serious reputation , = no money to be made . 1/4's are readily sold and the market is wide open way more ranchers than suzzies mom's out there . and old farmers know this as a fact !


I sold my weanings for more than your top dollar amount.  In fact, good trail horses in my area run between $1500-3K

Warmbloods require training to do what they were bred to do. I don't have much to do with Quarter Horses after the HYPP debacle.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Granted, I live in an area with super-high cost of living but I can't imagine anyone anywhere making ends meet by producing working ranch horses and only getting $1500 to $3500 apiece for them.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Grumpy old man said:


> There is always a difference between a business and a hobby , In my opinion I'd rather sell a bunch of 1/4's a year and they don't need blue ribbons to sell . To each there own . :shrug: I still have a pasture full of mares .


My weanlings didn't need blue ribbons to sell either- just excellent conformation and good bloodlines.

Are you saying I had a hobby farm rather than a business? How would you know that? However, the IRS would disagree with you.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

hypp you want to disreguard 1/4's based on 1 horse ? named Impressive ?


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

I think it's incredibly admirable that Grumpy is offering to pay for their rehab. It's pretty awesome, in fact. I hope you do and I hope to hear they do well for the rest of their lives.

But especially, as Pixie pointed out, since the slaughter ban, with no bottom to the market there are so many horses abandoned, neglected and people unable to afford them that I think the rescues are over run and are forced to make decisions based on the money they have available.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

I know a fabulous farrier who might be able to help you. I only know about her from online (another horse forum) but you can see her website at http://www.hoofcareonline.com/ E-mail her the pics and ask her what she thinks. I hope she can help!


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

I wish you nothing but the best results with your horses .I hope you can get back to breeding soon .I'll stick to a field full of cheap 1/4's


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Grumpy old man said:


> hypp you want to disreguard 1/4's based on 1 horse ? named Impressive ?


That one horse has ruined horses of several breeds and now that it's well known the papers are "lost" on the n/h and h/h horses and they are sold on as grades. It's not the Quarter Horses fault (they were a wonderful breed and some still are) it's AQHA, they could have stopped HYPP 30 years ago but didn't because they wanted the money. 

So, yes I avoid Quarter Horses or Quarter Horse crosses unless they are proven to be n/n and even then I'll pass if they go back to Impressive too often.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

There is nothing more corrupt than dog and horse lineage . THEY WERE A WONDERFUL BREED ? okey dokey you have a good day . :runforhills:


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Grumpy old man said:


> There is nothing more corrupt than dog and horse lineage . THEY WERE A WONDERFUL BREED ? okey dokey you have a good day . :runforhills:


HYPP, HERDA, GBED, PSSM, OLW, to name a few. AQHA closing the books too early was a huge snafu. Plus you conveniently left off the "and some still are" from my quote. I'm far from the only one that has a jaded view on the AQHA.

I've bred horses for 30 years- I started with Appaloosas in my teens, Quarter Horses, and then Warmbloods and Sport Horses. I still have two out of work broodmares, an OTTTB and a Hanoverian Sport Horse. They will be here as long as they're comfortable.

I don't know how many I've foaled out and sold over the years. I've bought, sold, and trained and retrained many many horses over the years. I ran a boarding barn, gave countless lessons, showed, was a horse show mom, 4H leader, Pony Club and have been involved in all disciplines except driving and saddleseat. Satisfied?

My area (upstate New York) has decent prices for good stock, it's still feasible to ship to slaughter in Canada.


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## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

ok here's the story on this two. The one with the pancaked feet, she is in her twentys and they can't seem to put any weight on her, they have switched her feed and everything in order for her to get more fiber, but nothing is working. Her hooves were normal, according to the rescue owner. She did explain that her last farrier of five years never really paid attention and over time, they flared out to the point of dinner plates now. 


The other with the **** foot front, which I'm assuming is due to strain the suspensory ligament, she is younger, I'dd say sixteen. They both have healthy soles, which is what has me stumped. Because they are pushed out and healthy, but the rest of the hoof wall seemes suckin in which would be the main reason I say the sole dropped. The only reason I could think of the sole dropping is due to something wrong on the inside. There is no other way for me to explain it.. They really dont want to put them down, and so I am going to contact them and ask them to atleast have the vet come out and X-ray their front feet just to make sure there is no rotation. Both horses I have grown a liking too, very sweet mares. The older one used to be rideable, however now is a different story. I do go there every thursday so I will try knifing their soles out just to see whats going on. Grumpy I will take full body pictures for you, I guess I should have done that from the beginning, it would've made a little more sense. Wasn't really thinking about that though. They are out in a pasture. The Rescue purchases horses from the Kill pen Auctions. And while I've seen some AMAZING horses enter there I've also seen many That looked a wreck. What amazes me is most of these horses are broke to ride, and pull carts. I'm assuming they were the Amishes horses. Tall, lanky and just amazinG!!! They do have a website AC4H.com. They do have another farrier out there but the owner has informed me that he doesn't roll the tops of the hooves, which in my opinion is a big neccessity.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

In my experience when the Amish sell a horse there's a reason and it's usually completely wore out or simply not trainable. They are farm equipment and when there is no "fix" they are packed off post haste.


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## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

You should see some of the feet I've worked on from them, The poor horses look like they are wearing high heels. The heels are EXTREMELY long, and up right. It's ridiculous. I just pulled shoes off of one, the shoe wasnt even fit for the hoof itself. The hoof wall was curling over the blasted thing. Plus the horse had a total of six abbcesses on three feet, and the front right hoof has a horrible case of white line disease which I am working on at the current moment. But its just ridiculous. I' ve come to conclusion that the Amish, although Cheap, can not shoe a horse to save their life!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Grumpy old man said:


> I think the correct thing to do would be to ask the moderator to weigh in on the subject openly ?


What would you like me to weigh in on? Can you vigorously malign another member and how they do business? No, you can't. Can you use snippy terms to describe another facet of the industry? No you can't. Can you dog another member because you feel you're more right? No you can't. Can you demand someone's financial information? No, you can't. 

Can you offer to adopt these two horses? Absolutely, get on the phone and start making arrangements! Can you have a different opinion than someone else? Certainly, but according to HT rules, you have to be civil and respectful. 

I hope I've openly answered your questions.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

wr - you put it rather direct and hard to be misunderstood.
I agree.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

After doing a little checking on ac4h and reading scathing reports online about their practices and watching some of ac4h's own posted video's showing 3 tractor trailer horse carriers parked in front of their barn at one time also the condition of the barns/stalls and grounds and the number of horses in their own posted video's . I will have to seriously reconsider any actions regarding any support at this time and will have to dig a little deeper before I make a final decision on any donations . I wish these horses the best they are going to need some serious help .


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

ac4h??? Oh brother! I wouldn't do business with them at all. NOT a good organization. Asking way too much money, not caring for horses (she has one video of a horse with a dead horse in the background - http://voiceforhorses-exposed.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/the-smell-of-money-more-powerful-than.html). She's a broker, not a rescue. I know numerous people who have been scammed by her!


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## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

Grumpy. I understand. I've heard some bad things about them, but since I've been working on their horses constantly every Week, I also came to the conclusion that the owner really is trying to help these horses. I personally think she at times is biting off more then she can chew though, lol. She doesn't want any of them in the kill pen so she tries her best to get a large amount at a time, and me being only one person I try to take on the problem cases before the regular ones which is def. a hard bit for me lol! I do however see how she cares for these equines and I do give her credit on that note.


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## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

oh jeeze, let me look into this. I'm not sure exactly what a broker is?


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## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

Also, the are in whcih I have been working, did not look like the one in the video.


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## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

*i meant the area which


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Grumpy old man said:


> After doing a little checking on ac4h and reading scathing reports online about their practices and watching some of ac4h's own posted video's showing 3 tractor trailer horse carriers parked in front of their barn at one time also the condition of the barns/stalls and grounds and the number of horses in their own posted video's . I will have to seriously reconsider any actions regarding any support at this time and will have to dig a little deeper before I make a final decision on any donations . I wish these horses the best they are going to need some serious help .


Unfortunately, with the current market the way it is, there are a lot of rescues that are pushed to the financial limits and if direction financial contributions no longer interest you, I'm very sure that there are rescues much closer to you that could certainly use you time and vast equine knowledge in their rehab program.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Uhh... how on earth does someone not realize there is a carcass nearby like in the video? But then again, why on earth would you post a video with a carcass in it unless you seriously didn't realize it was there? Pretty nasty.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

She said elsewhere that it was a horse that they tried to save who was pregnant but they couldn't save her. They were waiting to bury her or something. But still, as a "rescue", do you not at least keep dead horses out of your videos????????? Yes, horses die but you take care of the carcasses immediately. UGH!!

Not to mention the whole FBI raid thing.....


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Are we certain this is the same rescue that Jessy is discussing?


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

wr said:


> Are we certain this is the same rescue that Jessy is discussing?


If it's AC4H, it is.


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## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

It is the same rescue. I looked up the FBI raid video, and the palomino mare on there is Mama, I'm currently working on her to cure her of horrible white line disease. I even spoke with the vet who indeed did send me the xrays so I know for a fact that the vet does indeed go out there. the only thing is in the video with the dead horse, i dont recognize that are.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

looking at their tax return for 2010 they took in $860,000.00 + and they did show $4-7,000.00 a month just in vet services and donaions of $64,000+ but showed 0 paid wages for the officers of the charity .I'm no accountant and correct me if I'm wrong but this seems like there's a lot more that stinks at ac4h than a dead horse ?


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## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

That was back in 2010, perhaps back then it was a different story? I'm not sure, I wasn't with them back then but maybe everything that happened made them think twice? The only reason I'm saying that is because now, in 2013 I see alot being dished out specifically for the horses. and if indeed they were keeping that money dont you think it would have been invested into stuff for their own personal use? Which that I did not see seeing as how I've been in their home, and I've seen their vehicles ect. If it was a fraud and they were using the funds for their own personal prefrences I think they would have something to show for it. I do know that not only do they pay the farriers, as well as the vet bills (as of now) but they also rent properties for the horses that they do bring in. I do believe alot of people thrive on the he said she said stuff. But I do know that I physically have been there and I physically see what goes on and how the equines are maintained.;


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

I know numerous people who paid for a horse (forget adoption fee - they paid for them with the prices they paid) and then didn't get a horse or were told that the horse they wanted was gone and they didn't know where it was (????) and would they like this other horse? It's REALLY shady.


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## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

Now like I said I haven't adopted any horses from them, so I can't vouche for that side of the deal personally. All i know if simply the care for the ones in their possession. Now I did read up on some reviews and a few people did mention to follow the instructions to a T. But in many cases I've read that alot of people did recieve the horses in which they adopted so i dont know who to believe on that note.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jessy is the only person that has actually visited this facility, correct? Has anyone else had _direct_ contact, ie. bought a horse, donated, visited etc...?

Also, she has no input on the running of the rescue, she is simply employed by them as a farrier.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Are all the barns/grounds and stalls still in the sad condition that was pictured in their videos ? Any charity taking in $100's of thousands of dollars with none of it shown as administrative costs/paychecks how do they survive ? I could be wrong but they just seem to have so many bad reviews and when the FBI shows up and raids your house and takes away records and files you may have a serious problem and should reassess your calling ? And it's not over health certificates ..... I'll have to watch the outcome of this one .


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## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

lol thank you Irish, that is correct! I am only the farrier that is it.


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## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

The grounds in which I work on are kept clean. The hard service is kept clean, and free of manure. They are out there every morning mucking away. The pasture as far as what I've seen was kept clean as well. Where I was there were no stalls. But its a complete shelter.


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## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

All the reviews that I've noticed were people bashing them, the way I see it, don't judge until you've done the research and physically been there, then the judging is all up to you.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/pets/FBI-seeks-victims-in-possible-horse-rescue-fraud-case.html

I know a number of people who have been in contact with the FBI regarding this. It's an ongoing investigation.


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## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

I will certainly keep up with it!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Annsni said:


> http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/pets/FBI-seeks-victims-in-possible-horse-rescue-fraud-case.html
> 
> I know a number of people who have been in contact with the FBI regarding this. It's an ongoing investigation.


No one said that AC4H isn't under investigatation, or that there haven't been problems with it, but that no one here (except Jessy) has ever actually seen the facility or dealt directly with the owner(s). I imagine there is fraud going on, there usually is when money is involved, but Jessy has nothing to do with it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jessy said:


> I will certainly keep up with it!


I wouldn't worry too much about it unless the paychecks start bouncing.  It's not your problem.


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## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

This is true, lol. I still get paid for the work that I do so technically what goes on outside of their feet is none of my concern. lol. in the meantime I will continue to push onwards on getting these horses sound once again! That there is my job lol.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Jessy said:


> This is true, lol. I still get paid for the work that I do so technically what goes on outside of their feet is none of my concern. lol. in the meantime I will continue to push onwards on getting these horses sound once again! That there is my job lol.


And that's awesome!! Just make sure you keep good books if they pay you so that if you are interviewed by the FBI, you will be covered.  Thanks for helping the horses!


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## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

I def keep records of everything I do, just incase i ever am questioned. I have a folder that holds all of my receipts xD


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## Jessy (Jul 26, 2013)

The only reason I got into this field was for my love of horses, lol and so I will continue to help them to the best of my ability, despite how the people are or how they are portrayed to be


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Grumpy old man said:


> I would be more than happy to assist you with selling high quality horses to the correct buyers for no fee on my part . Many times there are not enough quality horses for the buyers that are out there .Provided you can give them what they are looking for and that's pretty easy .3-7 year olds broke to work on the ranch with no health issues on delivery will bring big money all day long . Real ranchers are only interested in ready to work horses day in and day out .


My DD and SIL are "real" ranchers, they have been offered so many good ranch horses in the last few years that my SIL's stock answer is I will take the horses if you give me $1000.00 to take each one. These are young, well trained, healthy, largely geldings that for one reason or another need a new home. They have all the ranch horses they need, so do the neighbors. There are few places for horses to go, fewer ranchers using fewer horses. The hobby market is so bad in this area, even being close to Canada doesn't help.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

I live in a really active show area in Florida and I just had a friend _give_ to me a beautiful Arabian mare, only 9 years old. Good manners, rides with a halter and simply lovely. Free horses of good caliber are just a dime a dozen right now... its sad to see.


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

Those hooves are grass founder feet. I had a mare who's feet where just like that. I kept asking the farrier and vet why she was so sensitive and her feet dropped and flat, spread out. they had every reason in the book but grass founder. An old horse guy told me take her off grass. in 4 months her feet grew completely different, straight, no flaring and heels etc completely sound. she was no longer tender footed. took me 7 years to figure it out, no thanks to the professionals. I had to ride her with easy boots but not any more. I also gave her vitamin minerals while I had her off the grass, it was made just for grass founder. 

Grass founder isnt a death sentence. the coffin bone dont always move. What happens is when the horse eats too much lush greens, an acid is produced causing swelling in the body, including the hoof. but the hoof doest give like the rest of the body, so the lamina suffers etc.


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## WJMartin (Nov 2, 2011)

farmgal, so can you explain what you fed your horse when you took her off grass? Did you feed hay? Trying to understand as I think this may be part of what my horse's problem may be.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

Jessy said:


> ok here's the story on this two. The one with the pancaked feet, she is in her twentys and they can't seem to put any weight on her, they have switched her feed and everything in order for her to get more fiber, but nothing is working. Her hooves were normal, according to the rescue owner. She did explain that her last farrier of five years never really paid attention and over time, they flared out to the point of dinner plates now.


I sure don't wish to come off mean or anything but should this rescue really be doing rescues? Why would they ever let a horse under their care get like that? It seems to me that they bear some responsibility for their horses' hooves. 

That being said, are there really a lot of kill pens in your area? Selling horses for slaughter isn't necessarily profitable in many areas of the coutry since there are few if any remaining slaughter houses in the U.S. 

I used to be totally against horse slaughter but now understand its importance. I think the ban has costed more lives than it has saved. To me, it is as shrort sighted a the comment I heard from the dog whisperer. He said he thought that dog euthanasia should be illegal. I know that you don't have any contro over the rescue but maybe you could suggest to the rescue that they might do more good rescuing horses from people who can no longer afford to feed their horses.

As far as the investigation goes, it sounds like none of the rest of us have laid eyes on the facility's horse. I have seen more than one news program show TV segments on investigations by local animal rights organiations. They talk abut poor quality of care and show a facility's terribly dirty stalls when, in reality, they are cleaner than those of many horse owners. They talk of skinny horses without mentioning that the horse is as old as heck and the facility owners are paying out the nose for specialty feed. You just really cannon know.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Well meaning people often do not understand the harm they cause with their 'feel good' laws. It's a difficult position to be in, actually understanding reality and the harshness of the world.


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## BigHenTinyBrain (Apr 4, 2013)

I am on my wife's forum right now but I have a question for horse folk. I am running a large farm alone, 80 head beef 11 horses, 23 deer, and every other critter imaginable. I have no experience with horses. My wife says a horse wont eat a knife but I need someone else to support that because I cant find my knife!


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

How many ranch horses are needed in Tennessee? I was under the opinion that ranches were located in the west, and maybe Florida.


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