# Too Many Illegals



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Taking Good Jobs and its not here in the U.S.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2010/0719/opinions-china-immigration-illegal-aliens-heads-up.html

big rockpile


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

At $200 a head we'd make a fortune sending them Mexicans. Kill two birds with one stone.


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## gideonprime (Oct 17, 2007)

What great jobs are these Illegals taking here in america? Ditch digger, busboy, deliverly guy?

Not great careers by any stretch.

Though I am not surprised China is having troubles too. With prosperity adn wealth comes those seeking to make a better life for themselves and their families.:shrug:


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> What great jobs are these Illegals taking here in america? Ditch digger, busboy, deliverly guy?


Construction and factory jobs


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## gideonprime (Oct 17, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Construction and factory jobs


Ahh Thanks for the answer


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## JMD_KS (Nov 20, 2007)

gideonprime said:


> What great jobs are these Illegals taking here in america? Ditch digger, busboy, deliverly guy?
> 
> Not great careers by any stretch.
> 
> Though I am not surprised China is having troubles too. With prosperity adn wealth comes those seeking to make a better life for themselves and their families.:shrug:


Lots of college kids would love those jobs you mentioned. Don't know how many times our teenage son used to come home & say the truckload of illegals got the jobs rather than the American kids that were applying, when he'd go to the labor pros looking for summer jobs,etc. 

How 'bout w/ one of the largest contractors in the US??? I know MANY many guys around here who would LOVE the jobs these illegals are doing, and likely many of the AMERICANS who are on unemployment, as well!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU06_MHZQFk[/ame]


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## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

JMD_KS said:


> Lots of college kids would love those jobs you mentioned. Don't know how many times our teenage son used to come home & say the truckload of illegals got the jobs rather than the American kids that were applying, when he'd go to the labor pros looking for summer jobs,etc.
> 
> How 'bout w/ one of the largest contractors in the US??? I know MANY many guys around here who would LOVE the jobs these illegals are doing, and likely many of the AMERICANS who are on unemployment, as well!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU06_MHZQFk


Problem is, the Americans would not be willing to do that work for the same, low level of pay/no benefits. We need to crack down on the employers who hire illegals---that would be a simpler solution that trying to prevent people from crossing the border illegally. 

Reduce the jobs that illegals can obtain and you will reduce the number of illegals living here--no jobs, no reason to come here....


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

gideonprime said:


> Ahh Thanks for the answer


Kitchen jobs
Landscaping jobs
Restaurant jobs
Factory jobs
Seasonal work


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Construction and factory jobs


If you lost a job to an illegal you didn't have much of a job to begin with.

I would hate to think an illegal could slip over the border, have no address, no references, no training, could not speak the language, had to keep looking over his shoulder for the law, and still take my job.


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## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

This thread reminded me of the Take Our Jobs program that I read about:

http://uspoverty.change.org/blog/view/farm_workers_dare_you_take_our_jobs


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## JMD_KS (Nov 20, 2007)

pancho said:


> If you lost a job to an illegal you didn't have much of a job to begin with.
> 
> I would hate to think an illegal could slip over the border, have no address, no references, no training, could not speak the language, had to keep looking over his shoulder for the law, and still take my job.


Take a look around!! These days ,ANY job is a good job, to the millions out of work. This is AMERICA, and AMERICANS are out of work while ILLEGAL foreigners are working here ! What is wrong w/ this picture?!?


( And why am I wasting my time arguing w/ people who just don't get it,or are obviously arguing on the side of criminals?):hrm:


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JMD_KS said:


> Take a look around!! These days ,ANY job is a good job, to the millions out of work. This is AMERICA, and AMERICANS are out of work while ILLEGAL foreigners are working here ! What is wrong w/ this picture?!?
> 
> 
> ( And why am I wasting my time arguing w/ people who just don't get it,or are obviously arguing on the side of criminals?):hrm:


There must be something wrong when the illegals can keep a job when U.S. citizens can't.
Seems like it would be rather easy to figure out.
If you had a business and it came time to lay off a few people who would you choose?


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## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

JMD_KS said:


> Take a look around!! These days ,ANY job is a good job, to the millions out of work. This is AMERICA, and AMERICANS are out of work while ILLEGAL foreigners are working here ! What is wrong w/ this picture?!?
> 
> 
> ( And why am I wasting my time arguing w/ people who just don't get it,or are obviously arguing on the side of criminals?):hrm:


What you say is ABSOLUTELY not true...I know many unemployed people who refuse to apply for MANY MANY jobs because those jobs are not "good" enough. Most Americans would NOT take a job harvesting tomatoes in one state for three months, then move to another area of the country to harvest something for three months and so forth. What is wrong with this picture is that we are NOT cracking down on the employers! Did you know that Immigration Services has agreements with some meat packing plants that they will not arrest more than a set number of people per night because if they arrest ALL the known illegals, the meat packing plant would not be able to operate. Why not crack down on those employers?


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## JMD_KS (Nov 20, 2007)

You must know a different caliber of people than I do, because the ones I hang w/ would (and DO) take ANY job, rather than sit on their butt to collect a check. Problem IS, they just can't support their families on such low pay.

_Of course_ the employers are the biggest problem,as well, because they GET AWAY w/ paying illegals peanuts, & no benefits. There are those who of course argue in their defense, because they are the ones benefiting , while the average American suffers. Most of us don't want to live 3-4 families to one dwelling, like the illegals do. 
We have to be able to get together & stop the vicious cycle, or our country will continue it's current downward spiral.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JMD_KS said:


> You must know a different caliber of people than I do, because the ones I hang w/ would (and DO) take ANY job, rather than sit on their butt to collect a check. Problem IS, they just can't support their families on such low pay.
> 
> _Of course_ the employers are the biggest problem,as well, because they GET AWAY w/ paying illegals peanuts, & no benefits. There are those who of course argue in their defense, because they are the ones benefiting , while the average American suffers. Most of us don't want to live 3-4 families to one dwelling, like the illegals do.
> We have to be able to get together & stop the vicious cycle, or our country will continue it's current downward spiral.


You need to read some of the other forums. One money saving tactic now used by U.S. citizens is large extended families living together. If you can afford to live differently you are free to do so. It would seem like some of the U.S. citizens who are loosing their homes might not agree with you.

All U.S. citizens benefit from the illegals. Just listen to the complaining when food prices rise. If you buy anything you benefit.


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## JMD_KS (Nov 20, 2007)

pancho said:


> You need to read some of the other forums. One money saving tactic now used by U.S. citizens is large extended families living together. If you can afford to live differently you are free to do so. It would seem like some of the U.S. citizens who are loosing their homes might not agree with you.
> 
> All U.S. citizens benefit from the illegals. Just listen to the complaining when food prices rise. If you buy anything you benefit.


Again, I am happy that the _majority of Americans _agree that the illegals are HURTING America. And we are taking steps to remedy the problem, I assure you.
:cowboy:


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JMD_KS said:


> Again, I am happy that the _majority of Americans _agree that the illegals are HURTING America. And we are taking steps to remedy the problem, I assure you.
> :cowboy:


When you stop buying any product produced by illegals I will start believing you really care. As long as you continue to buy the products they produce I find it hard to believe you really believe what you preach.


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## JMD_KS (Nov 20, 2007)

I'm not wasting any more of my time debating w/ anyone who supports & defends CRIMINALS.


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## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

pancho said:


> When you stop buying any product produced by illegals I will start believing you really care. As long as you continue to buy the products they produce I find it hard to believe you really believe what you preach.


SPOT ON!!! It is the public's INSISTENCE on CHEAP CHEAP food and products that help to keep this cycle running! Crack down on the employers who hire illegals and then the companies will need to hire legal workers, pay them a decent wage and raise the price of goods to their true level.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Phoebesmum said:


> What you say is ABSOLUTELY not true...I know many unemployed people who refuse to apply for MANY MANY jobs because those jobs are not "good" enough. Most Americans would NOT take a job harvesting tomatoes in one state for three months, then move to another area of the country to harvest something for three months and so forth. What is wrong with this picture is that we are NOT cracking down on the employers! Did you know that Immigration Services has agreements with some meat packing plants that they will not arrest more than a set number of people per night because if they arrest ALL the known illegals, the meat packing plant would not be able to operate. Why not crack down on those employers?


#1, if the unemployed person has run out of benefits, I'd like to think they'd work for nearly any pay.
#2, Used to have 'migrant workers' who were not just foreigners.
#3, ICE is corrupt, at least under this corrupt administration. Have you seen the "Vote of No Confidence" letter to ICE by its workers??
#4, Bet if they DID round up the illegals the factory would hire replacements, huh. Ask Janet Nappy why there's no crackdowns.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Yup, put those welfare collectors out in those fields.


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## gwhilikerz (Aug 7, 2006)

It's the employers fault, not the illegals. It's the citizen's fault, not the illegals. It's lazy Americans' fault, not the illegals. It's anybody's fault, but not the illegals. It seems some of us will swallow anything. It is the illegal that comes across the border illegally. It is the illegal that carries drugs across the border. It is the illegal that lines up at every hand-out facility available. It is the illegal that walks into a hospital, receives free medical care, has a baby and walks out with a anchor to keep them firmly on American soil. 
I could go on forever., but you get my point. Stop the flow of illegals and all those other problems you guys have mentioned will go away. Good fences DO make good neighbors.
btw Phoebesmum, do you know any of those nice illegal gang members who were just rounded up in Southern Indiana? Were they picking tomatoes, Posey County watermelons, or pushing drugs and doing violent crimes?


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

gwhilikerz said:


> It's the employers fault, not the illegals. It's the citizen's fault, not the illegals. It's lazy Americans' fault, not the illegals. It's anybody's fault, but not the illegals. It seems some of us will swallow anything. It is the illegal that comes across the border illegally. It is the illegal that carries drugs across the border. It is the illegal that lines up at every hand-out facility available. It is the illegal that walks into a hospital, receives free medical care, has a baby and walks out with a anchor to keep them firmly on American soil.
> I could go on forever., but you get my point. Stop the flow of illegals and all those other problems you guys have mentioned will go away. Good fences DO make good neighbors.
> btw Phoebesmum, do you know any of those nice illegal gang members who were just rounded up in Southern Indiana? Were they picking tomatoes, Posey County watermelons, or pushing drugs and doing violent crimes?


Mmmmmmmm - Posey County watermelons. Heaven!
Illegal = criminal no matter how you slice it. But then, there are people who will say that being a criminal doesn't make you a bad person. Bwahahahahahaha - what it does do is make you a CRIMINAL!!


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## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

gwhilikerz said:


> It's the employers fault, not the illegals. It's the citizen's fault, not the illegals. It's lazy Americans' fault, not the illegals. It's anybody's fault, but not the illegals. It seems some of us will swallow anything. It is the illegal that comes across the border illegally. It is the illegal that carries drugs across the border. It is the illegal that lines up at every hand-out facility available. It is the illegal that walks into a hospital, receives free medical care, has a baby and walks out with a anchor to keep them firmly on American soil.
> I could go on forever., but you get my point. Stop the flow of illegals and all those other problems you guys have mentioned will go away. Good fences DO make good neighbors.
> btw Phoebesmum, do you know any of those nice illegal gang members who were just rounded up in Southern Indiana? Were they picking tomatoes, Posey County watermelons, or pushing drugs and doing violent crimes?


Did I EVER say it was not the illegals fault??? EVER??? NO. It absolutely is their fault, but what is easier---trying to stop people from coming across a border that is impossible to fully secure OR cracking down on employers who are enabling those who are illegaly coming to the US to easily earn money? The employers are as responsible as the illegal immigrants--both are breaking laws.


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## JMD_KS (Nov 20, 2007)

Phoebesmum said:


> Did I EVER say it was not the illegals fault??? EVER??? NO. It absolutely is their fault, but what is easier---trying to stop people from coming across a border that is impossible to fully secure OR cracking down on employers who are enabling those who are illegaly coming to the US to easily earn money? The employers are as responsible as the illegal immigrants--both are breaking laws.


It's not impossible. This is the USA, we went to the dang MOON. Surely we could secure a freakin border.


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## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

JMD_KS said:


> It's not impossible. This is the USA, we went to the dang MOON. Surely we could secure a freakin border.


Sure--go ahead and erect a HUGE fence across the Mexico/US border and pay officers to patrol it 24/7---that would be SO much more cost effective and better for our economy than simply cracking down on the employers and opening up all those jobs performed by the illegal immigrants to US citizens...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> If you lost a job to an illegal you didn't have much of a job to begin with.


I've seen them in good high paid factory jobs and lots of good paying construction jobs.
Not all illegals are picking crops. In fact, a LOT of those farm workers ARE legal.


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

Phoebesmum said:


> Did I EVER say it was not the illegals fault??? EVER??? NO. It absolutely is their fault, but what is easier---trying to stop people from coming across a border that is impossible to fully secure OR cracking down on employers who are enabling those who are illegaly coming to the US to easily earn money? The employers are as responsible as the illegal immigrants--both are breaking laws.


It is a defined duty of our government to protect our borders. That should be an absolute given - that should be the very easiest.


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## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

Gercarson said:


> It is a defined duty of our government to protect our borders. That should be an absolute given - that should be the very easiest.


Wow....you have no concept of the length of the Mexico/US border and the type of terrain involved do you??? AND the government does try to protect us from dangerous people coming over, "protecting" us from people who are simply trying to have a better life is at the bottom of their list of priorities.


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## gwhilikerz (Aug 7, 2006)

America can't build a fence on the border because the terrain is kinda rough? I can see trying to continue this with reasonable discussion is going nowhere. I'm gone.


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## gideonprime (Oct 17, 2007)

JMD_KS said:


> It's not impossible. This is the USA, we went to the dang MOON. Surely we could secure a freakin border.


Youd think but no one was trying to get here from the moon.

Seriously though, build a fence they build a ladder or a tunnel. You want to stop them from coming stop those that hire them and revamp social services so that they cannot get access to them (EBT, rental assistance etc.).:shrug:

Til then the lure, and the fact that they are fleeing a war torn country will keep them coming just like refugees in europe during WWII.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Phoebesmum is right it's the employers.

Just to take FL, where I lived for 8 years as an example, even big chains like McDonalds only put up help wanted signs in Spanish.

Because I am loudmouthed and asked about it, I was told by several different hiring managers from several different companies that they don't WANT to hire Americans.
If they hire Americans they have to follow labor laws.
If they hire Americans they have to pay workers comp insurance.
If they hire Americans they have to pay SS taxes.
Etc and so on.
If they hire illegals, they pay 7.50 an hour cash.

I was also told several times that if I wanted the same deal, I could have it.
The problem is, that that's illegal. Making me a criminal. And since an American (with all our paperwork) is far, far easier to prosecute, guess who gets to pay all the nasty consequences. 
The employer? no, businesses are just trying to get by. 
The illegal? no, how do you keep track of them anyway. 
Me? Heck yeah! Throw the book at that tax evading scum! Take her kids off state medical - wait! - have CPS seize her kids, if she's working off the books who knows what other illegal activity she's into! Fine her everything she owns and put a lien against future earnings! Take her drivers license! Put her on probation.
Yeah, that will teach her to work of the books. 

So I can see people getting/staying on welfare. At least it won't get them thrown in jail and their kids taken away.

Do I sound bitter? That is the bitter voice of experience right there. And don't feed me any crap about how Americans won't do the tough jobs. Like heck. That "take our jobs" thing, DH and I both signed up for it. Nothing in our state (yeah right) and no, we're not going to move 3 states away and live in a camper and risk being the ones tossed in the clink and our kids gone because _we're_ the ones that could be easily prosecuted.

I can't really blame the illegals. I know for a fact that if DH or I could leave the kids safe in our home with the other one and cross a border and work for a couple of years, eating off the government and sending all our money home, till we either have enough saved to go home and buy a nice place and set up a business, or get something nice where we were at and send for our families - we'd do it.

You have to totally crack down on the employers and if you're not paying taxes, no tax-funded programs for you.

While we're cracking down on companies, I'd also like to see a crack down made on the companies who - so long as they have an _office_ in the states can have all their stuff manufactured where ever and not pay any import tax because they are "an American based company"
Let them pay the same import taxes and fees as if they didn't rent an office and pay a couple of people to sit in their "American base of operations" and it would be like magic how fast manufacturing jobs would start to reappear.


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## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

gwhilikerz said:


> America can't build a fence on the border because the terrain is kinda rough? I can see trying to continue this with reasonable discussion is going nowhere. I'm gone.


I never said you couldn't build the fence because the terrain is rough--patroling the border IS difficult though due to the terrain...huge patches of ground with little road access.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Phoebesmum said:


> Did I EVER say it was not the illegals fault??? EVER??? NO. It absolutely is their fault, but what is easier---trying to stop people from coming across a border that is impossible to fully secure OR cracking down on employers who are enabling those who are illegaly coming to the US to easily earn money? The employers are as responsible as the illegal immigrants--both are breaking laws.


I agree, both are breaking the laws. The employers who are hiring them, the landlords who are renting to them and the illegal immigrants. Time to crack down in all three areas. Secure our borders, and let states have a say in protecting their citizens from illegals who are attacking the innocent ranchers in their states. Lock up anyone who is hiring or renting to those who are here illegally.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JMD_KS said:


> I'm not wasting any more of my time debating w/ anyone who supports & defends CRIMINALS.


But you will spend your money buying the products they make. Then complain how high the price is.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JMD_KS said:


> It's not impossible. This is the USA, we went to the dang MOON. Surely we could secure a freakin border.


Why would we do that, it has been proven we don't want a fence.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> I agree, both are breaking the laws. The employers who are hiring them, the landlords who are renting to them and the illegal immigrants. Time to crack down in all three areas. Secure our borders, and let states have a say in protecting their citizens from illegals who are attacking the innocent ranchers in their states. Lock up anyone who is hiring or renting to those who are here illegally.


Employers are the key, because they can be enforced... Our border can not be closed really..

Employers are known, are far fewer in number, have far too much to lose... But they also contribute to political campaigns...


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I've seen them in good high paid factory jobs and lots of good paying construction jobs.
> Not all illegals are picking crops. In fact, a LOT of those farm workers ARE legal.


Can you explain how a person can sneak into our country, not speak the language, not have an address, not have an ID, not have any experience, and many times not even have any shoes, take the job away from a worker that has all of the above and job senority?


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## JMD_KS (Nov 20, 2007)

gideonprime said:


> Youd think but no one was trying to get here from the moon.
> 
> Seriously though, build a fence they build a ladder or a tunnel. You want to stop them from coming stop those that hire them and revamp social services so that they cannot get access to them (EBT, rental assistance etc.).:shrug:
> 
> Til then the lure, and the fact that they are fleeing a war torn country will keep them coming just like refugees in europe during WWII.


True, but I don't like this whiney "but but we_ CAN'T_...." stuff. Didn't know the USA was so darn weak we can't even control our own borders. How lame. 
I heard today they are supposed to be sending more troops to the border, well, we'll see how that goes. I guess it's a start, but it seems both sides are just trying to butter up the voters before November. 
I never said that we shouldn't go after the employers & companies that hire illegals, as well as put a stop to all the taxpayer funded social services they come for. 
Why do we even have laws if there are millions allowed to come here & break them?? For the fools who are greedy & want to exploit them for $$$, that's why.


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## gideonprime (Oct 17, 2007)

JMD_KS said:


> True, but I don't like this whiney "but but we_ CAN'T_...." stuff. Didn't know the USA was so darn weak we can't even control our own borders. How lame.
> I heard today they are supposed to be sending more troops to the border, well, we'll see how that goes. I guess it's a start, but it seems both sides are just trying to butter up the voters before November.
> I never said that we shouldn't go after the employers & companies that hire illegals, as well as put a stop to all the taxpayer funded social services they come for.
> Why do we even have laws if there are millions allowed to come here & break them?? For the fools who are greedy & want to exploit them for $$$, that's why.


we have never had total control of the boarders. :shug: why shuold today be any different? ake away the jobs, the houses and the benefits for illegals and you take away the reasons they come here . . . well except for those fleeing the war. They will try to come regardless but they could also in theory ask for political asylum.


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## JMD_KS (Nov 20, 2007)

gideonprime said:


> we have never had total control of the boarders. :shug: why shuold today be any different? ake away the jobs, the houses and the benefits for illegals and you take away the reasons they come here . . . well except for those fleeing the war. They will try to come regardless but they could also in theory ask for political asylum.


True, they never tried to secure our borders after 9/11, to protect the US from _terrorism_, so why start now?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Can you explain how a person can sneak into our country, not speak the language, not have an address, not have an ID, not have any experience, and many times not even have any shoes, take the job away from a worker that has all of the above and job senority?


They often get *fake ID's*, which gives them an address.
Being "illegal" doesn't mean they don't know HOW to do some things.

Some of them speak enough English to get by. "Illegal" isn't always "illiterate"

If they GET a job, they are keeping someone else from getting it.

You're trying to imply they are REPLACING someone already working at a company, which is not how it normally goes.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JMD_KS said:


> True, they never tried to secure our borders after 9/11, to protect the US from _terrorism_, so why start now?


They never tried before 9/11.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> They often get *fake ID's*, which gives them an address.
> Being "illegal" doesn't mean they don't know HOW to do some things.
> 
> Some of them speak enough English to get by. "Illegal" isn't always "illiterate"
> ...


If that isn't how it normally goes they aren't taking anyone's job.

How does an employer call a fake address? You are not trying to tell me they get the job just by walking in. If it was that easy why didn't some U.S. citizen without a job do the same thing?

I thought that was one of the complaints on this forum. Many say they can't speak the language. Remember all of those push 2 for spanish complaints.

How would any employer know what they were capable of doing, what jobs they were trained for without the illegal giving some type of previous job experience?

If there is a job opening why don't the U.S. citizen apply for it before the illegal can get up here from mexico?

There are just a lot of things that don't add up. People complain how they are taking all of the jobs but can't explain how that is. People complain how they are taking good jobs but can't explain how these jobs aren't already filled by U.S. citizens. People complain how they will come up here and get jobs but they will not even go to the next town or state to find a job.

Some people should wake up and see what the illegal is doing that makes an employer choose them over the U.S. citizen.
I still say if you let an illegal take your job you do not deserve a job.


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## silverbackMP (Dec 4, 2005)

I didn't read a the whole thread but I want to throw something out. In about 2000, I worked for a small packing plant in Minnesota that had a USDA contract to kill out a psuedo rabbied hogs in MN, Iowa, and SD. We were making $15 per hour. The regular workers in the main plant were (probably) illegals making $13 an hour. That was dang good money in the midwest in 2000. You can't get many third, fourth or fifth generations Americans that will still do that kind of work. One of the reasons I'm a little disgusted with the US at this time (no one wants to work--I mean really work--not pushing paper).


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## dezingg (Feb 25, 2010)

I like what the Chinese shoe factory owner with around 800 employees said about the illegal non-Chinese workers.

"They could work 15 to 16 hours a day and work for a month without any break. Few of the domestic workers, especially those born in the 1980s and after, could take this."

So basically he favors slavery. Too bad he isn't one of the workers. He probably works those kind of hours himself, but at a drastically different pay scale.


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## dezingg (Feb 25, 2010)

Most of the illegal workers I've seen are hired by sub-contractors. A presumably legal US citizen starts a sub-contracting business and get contracts for construction, janitorial or landscaping work. A company hires his business, which is legit and protects the company from being charged with hiring illegals. Then the sub-contractor hires illegals and pays less than prevailing wages so that he can underbid sub-contractors that would use legal workers. I believe that the sub-contractor also provides some support to train, house and transport the illegal workers.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> If that isn't how it normally goes they aren't taking anyone's job.


If there are 5 jobs available, and illegals get 4 of them, they have kept 4 Americans from getting those jobs.

You can rationalize it all you won't but it's not fooling anyone


> How does an employer call a fake address?


How do YOU "call" an address?
Do you want to pretend they are all illegal AND homeless?



> Many say they can't speak the language


Lots of them speak more than they let on, and if there is ONE who CAN speak English he interprets for the others, so he TAKES a "supervisor" job



> If there is a job opening why don't the U.S. citizen apply for it before the illegal can get up here from mexico?


LOL If you can't ask *serious* questions, why should anyone bother to answer them?



> People complain how they are taking all of the jobs but can't explain how that is.


If you use a little common sense, it doesn't require any explanation.
If you refuse to even try, it doesn't matter what anyone says



> I still say if you let an illegal take your job you do not deserve a job.


That's still a foolish argument, since no one "lets" employers hire anyone.
The *applicants* for jobs don't decide who gets hired, as you seem to think (or want us to think)


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## Stann (Jan 2, 2005)

gideonprime said:


> What great jobs are these Illegals taking here in america? Ditch digger, busboy, deliverly guy?
> 
> Not great careers by any stretch.
> 
> ...


You're kidding, right. They're taking government jobs, city and county jobs. In Los Angeles, there are communities that are about 90% hispanic. Do you think that they check immigration status in Los Angeles County? No way. These are very good paying jobs, with good pensions.

added: Check out these salaries http://www.lasalaries.com


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Txrider said:


> Employers are the key, because they can be enforced... Our border can not be closed really..
> 
> Employers are known, are far fewer in number, have far too much to lose... But they also contribute to political campaigns...


I believe that if the federal government would let the states be more active in securing their own borders, instead of fighting against them, then the borders would be more secure than we are seeing right now.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> If there are 5 jobs available, and illegals get 4 of them, they have kept 4 Americans from getting those jobs.
> 
> You can rationalize it all you won't but it's not fooling anyone
> 
> ...


For some reason you seem to think an illegal can just walk across the border and immediately get a job. If it is that easy why can't the U.S. citizen already here get the same job? 

It is still very hard for me to understand why the U.S. citizen cannot compete with an illegal. Does the illegal really work that much harder than the U.S. citizen? Does the illegal do a better job than the U.S. citizen? Is the illegal better trained than the U.S. citizen? Is it the illegal is willing to go to where the jobs are at and the U.S. citizen won't? Or is it the U.S. citizen thinks he does not have to compete to get a job? Does he think he deserves a job just because he is a U.S. citizen?

A lot of the answers the U.S. citizen uses is just an excuse for not wantiing to work. There are jobs if a person really wants one. After all, a person from another country can come here and find one, why can't the U.S. citizen who has all of the advantages?


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

pancho said:


> For some reason you seem to think an illegal can just walk across the border and immediately get a job. If it is that easy why can't the U.S. citizen already here get the same job?
> 
> It is still very hard for me to understand why the U.S. citizen cannot compete with an illegal. Does the illegal really work that much harder than the U.S. citizen? Does the illegal do a better job than the U.S. citizen? Is the illegal better trained than the U.S. citizen? Is it the illegal is willing to go to where the jobs are at and the U.S. citizen won't? Or is it the U.S. citizen thinks he does not have to compete to get a job? Does he think he deserves a job just because he is a U.S. citizen?
> 
> ...


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

farmmom said:


> pancho said:
> 
> 
> > For some reason you seem to think an illegal can just walk across the border and immediately get a job. If it is that easy why can't the U.S. citizen already here get the same job?
> ...


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

pancho said:


> People complain how they are taking all of the jobs but can't explain how that is.


Did you read my post? I thought I explained it pretty well.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> I agree, both are breaking the laws. The employers who are hiring them, the landlords who are renting to them and the illegal immigrants. Time to crack down in all three areas. Secure our borders, and let states have a say in protecting their citizens from illegals who are attacking the innocent ranchers in their states. Lock up anyone who is hiring or renting to those who are here illegally.


The town of Farmers Branch, TX, a few miles from here, enacted a law saying its unlawful to rent to illegal aliens. LULAC or someone sued and it was declared unconstitutional. Look for another 'suing' of the law aggainst HIRING too.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

dezingg said:


> Most of the illegal workers I've seen are hired by sub-contractors. A presumably legal US citizen starts a sub-contracting business and get contracts for construction, janitorial or landscaping work. A company hires his business, which is legit and protects the company from being charged with hiring illegals. Then the sub-contractor hires illegals and pays less than prevailing wages so that he can underbid sub-contractors that would use legal workers. I believe that the sub-contractor also provides some support to train, house and transport the illegal workers.


Bingo, you get the cigar.
Another reason illegals are working is the wages & no benefits paid, like we've said b/4. Plus the big underground 'help' giving fake IDs, etc.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Otter said:


> Did you read my post? I thought I explained it pretty well.


I read your post, went back and reread it again. 

There is no way that any hiring managers of large companies would tell you they would not hire U.S. citizens. They would not have that job if they were that dumb. They would not be able to keep their job if they were dumb enough to tell any job applicant that. They could be sued for stating such nonsense along with the large companies they worked for. The large companies they worked for would fire them quickly for stating anything like that.
They would definately not mention anything about labor laws, workmans comp, or SS taxes. People that dumb are not put in charge of hiring.
Also they would never even talk to job applicants when it would be much easier and safer to just trash can your paperwork.

That is one reason it is hard to believe it when some American citizen says they cannot get a job because of illegals. They will usually come up with some wild story that any person who has ever put in a job application would know better.

If the large companies you speak of is the one you mentioned, McDonalds, you should know they have always hired part time workers so they do not have to pay benefits. It has nothing to do with hiring illegals.

One thing you might know if you actually looked for a job. There is such a thing as contract labor. You are responsible for paying taxes, not the company who hired you. If you fail to pay taxes it is possible you will be prosecuted. Again, nothing to do with hiring illegals. Millions of American citizens are contract laborers.

One other thing. Why should your kids be on any state program if you are working? I thought that was one of the gripes about the illegals. Are you admitting to doing the same thing you have been complaining the illegals do?
If it is not possible to keep track of an illegal working the same job, same conditions, and same company why would it be so easy to prosecute you?

Then you state you would not be willing to relocate to another state for a job. Ever think the illegals are willing to move to another country for a job.
That explains one real reason the illegals would be offered the job. They would go to the job and work after they got there. You are unwilling to do either. Why would any company hire you?

Another thing you mentioned, tax refunds. The only people I know of who can get a tax refund if they pay no taxes are U.S. citizens. There are millions of them that do, they get tax refunds when they do not pay any in and in the cases they do pay in some they get returns much greater thana the amopunt they paid in.
Several times I have mentioned the Suspense File the SSA has and where they get it. Take a little time to research what it is and you will get a surprise.

Lets see, you then finish up with wanting to crack down on companies who will not provide a job for you in the area you want to live. Again, the main reason the illegal would be offered a job. It is not the companies place to build a company and offer jobs in your home town just so you won't have to drive very far to work.

Hope I explained why I didn't answer your post. The main reason was I thought it was mostly BS, wild stories, and filled with in accuracies.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

I'm wanting to know how a Post on Chinas problem got hijacked into a debate on our problem.

But if it is to be so be it.As far as I'm concerned anyone supporting Illegals coming into this country is not U.S. Citizen and should be in prison for no less than a year and deported.

All the Illegals I know coming lately are promised Jobs before they get here for less wages than the Locals have always worked for.Tysons took the Local Poultry plant out of the area to Arkansas because they are more Illegal friendly.Not because they couldn't find workers.

As far as I'm concerned they are using the wrong type of metal for the fence on the border they should be using Lead alot cheaper.

big rockpile


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

big rockpile said:


> I'm wanting to know how a Post on Chinas problem got hijacked into a debate on our problem.
> 
> But if it is to be so be it.As far as I'm concerned anyone supporting Illegals coming into this country is not U.S. Citizen and should be in prison for no less than a year and deported.
> 
> ...


Hey Rock, do you support the illegals by buying what they produce?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

pancho said:


> There is no way that any hiring managers of large companies would tell you they would not hire U.S. citizens.


They weren't all large companies. I only mentioned that _even_ the large companies only put out help wanted signs in Spanish. And I don't know one, single, company in Fl that technically has full-time employees. They'd all rather pay overtime for anything over 38 1/2 hours. When they even do that. One place I worked would cut me 2 checks, one with my middle initial. I'd get 30 hours on one, 25 on the other.
I put up with it because I was grateful to have any job.

And there are situations where hiring managers tell the truth. Not if you bang on the office door and yell "Why did you hire Carlos and not me!!"
But-
They would if you were the age that I was then, pretty, and took them out for a beer and they starting talking about their jobs (blind date I'll never forget - you can meet people who are employed as hiring managers outside their offices, they're not chained there)

They would if they were trying to convince you to take the deal because they needed a "face" in the office or someone who spoke proper English to answer the phone but were so greedy they STILL wouldn't pay U.S wages (with the taxes and so on). Because I'm supposed to feel so sorry for them that they can't afford to run their business and pay taxes and the last time they were harassed for having NO on the books employees they didn't prosecute the secretary (yeah, right, so where is she now?)

They would if they were sleeping with your sister and you growled at them over not being hired.

And sometimes, they are just that stinkin brazen about it. What am _I_ going to do, sue? Yeah right, I just applied for a minimum wage job that I didn't get. It doesn't really scream _beware of lawyer_ How am I supposed to pay a lawyer?
And why would a lawyer take a moneysucking case like that in a state where this is such common practice?

And yes, my kids are on state medical assistance. My taxes pay for the program, I am a citizen and I use it. So? I pay taxes, DH pays taxes, my first husband paid taxes till he died, my parents and grandparent (several of them LEGAL immigrants) all paid taxes to pay for these programs.
See what I said above about companies jerking you around so they don't have to pay benefits, like medical.
That's why someone would have a job and have kids on state medical.

I was fired once for filing independent contractor paperwork. If you had ever worked in an office, you would know that there is paperwork the company has to file on every legitimate independent contractor.
If there wasn't, what stops anyone from claiming whatever they want connected to whatever company they think of come tax time? And hey, guess what? Companies _still_ have to pay certain taxes when they hire independent contractors. But not if "on the record" they don't have that employee at all.

And when I said I wouldn't relocate, I was very specifically referring to the "Take Our Jobs" program. Please don't take things out of context. If you knew anything about me, you would know that I HAVE moved, all over the country for jobs. But I won't do it for the "persecute-the-citizen" way that the Take Our Jobs program is set up. It is BS that they don't have any jobs in my state. They are trying to make a point and lying to do so. Come on. _NO_ ag jobs - in _Arkansas??_ I don't think so.
And in fact, I specifically said 
_I can't really blame the illegals. I know for a fact that if DH or I could leave the kids safe in our home with the other one and cross a border and work for a couple of years, eating off the government and sending all our money home, till we either have enough saved to go home and buy a nice place and set up a business, or get something nice where we were at and send for our families - we'd do it._

Where did I mention tax refunds?

And yes, we should crack down on companies that have used a loophole to not pay the same taxes and fees that other companies importing Made in China stuff have to by closing the loophole. I seriously doubt it would bring any jobs here where I am. But I can guarantee you, if Hershey's had to pay import, their factories in PA would open back up and I'd move for that work in a heartbeat. All you'd see is our dust trail north.
And yes, I know that Hershey's _specifically_ moved their manufacturing to Mexico. Same loophole. Most companies it's China, some India - same loophole.

So if you don't agree, you will only read partly, misinterpret, take out of context, etc? And then flat out say that a person is lying? Makes it hard to properly debate, doesn't it?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Otter said:


> They weren't all large companies. I only mentioned that _even_ the large companies only put out help wanted signs in Spanish. And I don't know one, single, company in Fl that technically has full-time employees. They'd all rather pay overtime for anything over 38 1/2 hours. When they even do that. One place I worked would cut me 2 checks, one with my middle initial. I'd get 30 hours on one, 25 on the other.
> I put up with it because I was grateful to have any job.
> 
> And there are situations where hiring managers tell the truth. Not if you bang on the office door and yell "Why did you hire Carlos and not me!!"
> ...


I apologize. You sound like you have had a rough time. I have been through a couple myself. It just effected us different. I don't have any right to say anything about you. A person does what they have to do.
I hope you will have better luck in the future.

An again, I apologize.


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

Tricky Grama said:


> Bingo, you get the cigar.
> Another reason illegals are working is the wages & no benefits paid, like we've said b/4. Plus the big underground 'help' giving fake IDs, etc.


SC just arrested a man charged with making and selling these fake ID's. Hopefully, we can continue to round these people up and make it very difficult to get these fake ID's, making it more difficult for illegals to stay here.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

farmmom said:


> SC just arrested a man charged with making and selling these fake ID's. Hopefully, we can continue to round these people up and make it very difficult to get these fake ID's, making it more difficult for illegals to stay here.


Why hasn't anyone posted anything about the Suspense File that 75% of the illegals pay into and never get anything back? Might make it a little easier for some to return if the gov. would return their money.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Why hasn't anyone posted anything about the Suspense File that 75% of the illegals pay into and never get anything back?


Didn't you claim they weren't taking any jobs?
If they don't have regular jobs, how are they paying in?


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

pancho said:


> Hey Rock, do you support the illegals by buying what they produce?


Not that I'm aware of as far as food I'm sure I don't.

big rockpile


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

pancho said:


> I apologize. You sound like you have had a rough time. I have been through a couple myself. It just effected us different. I don't have any right to say anything about you. A person does what they have to do.
> I hope you will have better luck in the future.
> 
> An again, I apologize.


Thank you very much. We've all been through rough times, and I thank you for your well wishes.

I know that this issue varies alot state to state. It's a huge part of why I left Fl. I'm not saying it isn't rough on the illegals too because it is, that's why they're here. Can't blame people for trying to make a better life (most of them, met my share or drug runners and thugs, sadly, they give the rest a bad name)

But something has got to give somewhere, the only solution I can see is to go after the companies breaking the law to increase their profit margin.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Didn't you claim they weren't taking any jobs?
> If they don't have regular jobs, how are they paying in?


No, I think you misunderstood. I said if an illegal can take your job you didn't have much of a job anyway.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

big rockpile said:


> Not that I'm aware of as far as food I'm sure I don't.
> 
> big rockpile


Do you drive a car, put gas in that car?

Do you eat only the food you grow? Ever go to the store and buy items?

Buy livestock feed?

Buy anything that has to be trucked in?

Do you make your own clothes?

These are just a few things the illegals work at.


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

pancho said:


> Do you drive a car, put gas in that car?
> 
> Do you eat only the food you grow? Ever go to the store and buy items?
> 
> ...


So you can see the extent of the problem - illegals EVERYWHERE in every job slot.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Gercarson said:


> So you can see the extent of the problem - illegals EVERYWHERE in every job slot.


Or its made by LEGAL citizens in other countries.

big rockpile


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Gercarson said:


> So you can see the extent of the problem - illegals EVERYWHERE in every job slot.


I can see there are illegals in many job slots. Also see not a single person on this forum does not benefit from them. Not much difference in the company owners who people say take advantage of the illegals. The people who buy the products of th eillegals benefit just as much as the companys.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

big rockpile said:


> Or its made by LEGAL citizens in other countries.
> 
> big rockpile


Which do you choose to buy from? Do you benefit from the illegals in this country or support companies in other countries?


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

pancho said:


> Which do you choose to buy from? Do you benefit from the illegals in this country or support companies in other countries?


I have no problem trading with other countries I really wish there was more Tariffs placed on Goods coming in though for more equal Trade.

As far as Illegals here there is no way I would knowingly support them here after seeing how they feel about this country and seeing what they have done to many towns. :flame:

big rockpile


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

big rockpile said:


> I have no problem trading with other countries I really wish there was more Tariffs placed on Goods coming in though for more equal Trade.
> 
> As far as Illegals here there is no way I would knowingly support them here after seeing how they feel about this country and seeing what they have done to many towns. :flame:
> 
> big rockpile


Rock, you do know they are not all alike. There are some good and some bad.


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

pancho said:


> Rock, you do know they are not all alike. There are some good and some bad.


How can we decide which lawbreaker is "good" and which one is "bad" since they're ALL criminals?


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

pancho said:


> Do you drive a car, put gas in that car?
> 
> Do you eat only the food you grow? Ever go to the store and buy items?
> 
> ...


buy a flower to pot
buy a seedling to plant
use a (pine) lumber product
enjoy clean sheets at a hotel
drive a ball on the green



big rockpile said:


> Or its made by LEGAL citizens in other countries.
> 
> big rockpile


add a word: "children-LEGAL citizens in other countries"


I have to agree with pancho, none is immune from the goods and services brought to us on the backs of the undocumented.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

pancho said:


> Rock, you do know they are not all alike. There are some good and some bad.


Well truth I have not seen much difference in them in Kansas City,Colorado,California or Texas.Always found it stupid having to fight them for a Job or place to Live.Crazy thing is I never had a problem with Cubans in Florida :shrug:

Thing is I have nothing against Legals.I got a call the other day from a Mexican girl in Colorado talked for an hour with her,haven't seen her for a long time.She said she wished we would move back out there.It will never happen but not because of her,I Love her like a Sister but its because I get so sick out there with higher elevation.

big rockpile


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## unregistered5595 (Mar 3, 2003)

I'm not saying I agree or disagree, just reporting what I saw on TV.

A news program, national news reporter said that the only way we (the US) will pay for the soon to be bankrupt social security system is to let illegals in so they work and pay for it. I'm thinking that this is probably the agenda.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Gercarson said:


> How can we decide which lawbreaker is "good" and which one is "bad" since they're ALL criminals?


Guess you can make that decision yourself. I think you have already done that though.

I really don't know anyone that is not a criminal. Everyone I know breaks the law every day, probably several times.


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## txquilter (Dec 29, 2009)

As someone who lives and works in Texas I can tell you that there are PLENTY of Texans that would do the jobs that a lot of the illegals are taking. I don't understand why everyone runs to defend illegals... They are here ILLEGALLY (breaking our laws) and should in no way be given an benefits, jobs, etc. Send them all packing back to their home country and tell them to come here the right way - through LEGAL immigration.

And, yes building a fence on the border is possible and is being done. Unfortunately our bleeding heart government won't support it or put forth the funds to take care of this issue. Yes, the President did just sign a bill sending money and additional resources to the borders but it is not enough and he only did it to strengthen his case against Arizona!

So, not to be rude, but if you don't live in and around the borders (Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California) there is absolutely no way you can ever understand what we deal with on a daily basis.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Feather In The Breeze said:


> I'm not saying I agree or disagree, just reporting what I saw on TV.
> 
> A news program, national news reporter said that the only way we (the US) will pay for the soon to be bankrupt social security system is to let illegals in so they work and pay for it. I'm thinking that this is probably the agenda.


In 2002 the gov quit releasing the amount of money in the Earnings Suspense File. This is the money collected by the SSA from illegal workers. According to their figures in 1999 there was $585 billion in the ESF. 
In 2002 it was growing at a rate of $50 billion a year including $6-$7 billion in SS revenue collected and $1.5 billion in medicade taxes.
The reason they quit releasing the amount in the file in 2002 was it was beginning to be too large. No one knows how much has been collected since then. For an estimate just remember how many illegals there were back in 2002 compared to today. The Earnings Suspense File has grown at the same rate.
The money supposedly in this fund is added to the General Revenue Fund.
Now you can see why the gov. is in no hurry to get rid of the illegals.
They have billions of dollars to use in any way they want with no record kept.
Part of this fund goes to the people already drawing SS. So if you know anyone drawing SS. you know someone that is funded by illegals.

Those people on this forum who have retired and collect SS should thank the illegals, they make it possible for you to continue collecting a check.
Those of you who expect to retire soon on SS might rethink if you want the illegals to move back to Mexico. You may loose your SS check.

Guess there is another way we benefit from the illegals.
How many on here will turn down SS now that they know it is funded by illegals.
I will be willing to bet not a single person will turn down their SS check.


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

pancho said:


> Guess you can make that decision yourself. I think you have already done that though.
> 
> I really don't know anyone that is not a criminal. Everyone I know breaks the law every day, probably several times.


Why, yes I have. You see, the key words here are "illegal alien" and understanding those words it's pretty darn easy to decide.
You might want to widen your circle of friends if everyone you know is a habitual and serial criminal.


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

pancho said:


> Guess there is another way we benefit from the illegals.
> How many on here will turn down SS now that they know it is funded by illegals.
> I will be willing to bet not a single person will turn down their SS check.


Guess that would be correct if illegals weren't paid "under the table".


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Gercarson said:


> Guess that would be correct if illegals weren't paid "under the table".


According to the numbers of our own internal revenue and SSA, over 75% of illegals pay into the fund and never collect a cent. 

Are you willing to give up your SS retirement now that you know the illegals will be funding that check you will be recieving.
Do your parents or anyone you know recieve a SS check? Be sure to tell them to thank the next illegal they see for funding their check.

Guess there is another benefit the U.S. citizens recieve from the illegals.
Now lets see how many will turn down that check.


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

pancho said:


> According to the numbers of our own internal revenue and SSA, over 75% of illegals pay into the fund and never collect a cent.
> 
> Are you willing to give up your SS retirement now that you know the illegals will be funding that check you will be recieving.
> Do your parents or anyone you know recieve a SS check? Be sure to tell them to thank the next illegal they see for funding their check.
> ...


Why would anyone "turn down that check"? Any monies paid in some sort of tax by these criminals probably would be multiplied several times if the job had gone to someone "legal" and wasn't working for peanuts - I love how so many think that crime should pay - as in: illegals "never collect a cent" - wow. Thank the illegal for taking a job from your son, daughter, husband, wife or any family member because that criminal is "supporting" someone on social security. Yeah, right. Maybe, at least, invite that criminal over for dinner, huh?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Around here the illegals are taking all the construction and landscaping jobs. And they work most of the fast food joints. Illegals get paid way less than Americans who used to perform those same jobs. I have watched the going wage for landscape workers drop from $9 to $12 an hour to $6.50 to $7.00. There was a big hailstorm here a few months back so everyone around is getting their roof replaced. Every single person working the crews of 5 different construction companies is Mexican. They don't speak English, they speak Spanish. These are jobs American citizens used to do but won't do now because the wages are so much less (but the price to the customer has not dropped) and the workers are now subcontractors meaning no benefits.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Gercarson said:


> Why would anyone "turn down that check"? Any monies paid in some sort of tax by these criminals probably would be multiplied several times if the job had gone to someone "legal" and wasn't working for peanuts - I love how so many think that crime should pay - as in: illegals "never collect a cent" - wow. Thank the illegal for taking a job from your son, daughter, husband, wife or any family member because that criminal is "supporting" someone on social security. Yeah, right. Maybe, at least, invite that criminal over for dinner, huh?


I kove how so many complain about illegals being criminals but have no problem stealing from these same people.

We never will know if someone legal would have paid in more taxes than the illegals. We do know the illegals have paid in a very large fund to the SSA and Medicare and will not recieve a single cent in return. The SSA records do prove who is recieving benefits partly funded by these criminals. That would be those who recieve retirement checks from SS. Without the billions of dollars paid in by these criminals the U.S. citizen would not be recieving a check at all.

The U.S. citizen wins again thanks to the illegal who really pays the bill. The U.S. citizen does not have to work at a job they do not like. The U.S. citizen can whine and complain how the illegals are taking all of the jobs. Then the U.S. citizen can retire and live on the money paid in by the illegals they continue to want to leave the country.
First they benefited by being able to pick and choose what job they would like to do. Second they benefit from the lower priced products provided by the low pay the illegals recieve. Third, they can recieve a retirement funded by illegals who continue to do all of the work.

Isn't the U.S. great. We can get others to pay our bills while we complain and whine about these individuals taking the jobs we do not have to work at anyway.


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## Stann (Jan 2, 2005)

pancho said:


> I kove how so many complain about illegals being criminals but have no problem stealing from these same people.
> 
> We never will know if someone legal would have paid in more taxes than the illegals. We do know the illegals have paid in a very large fund to the SSA and Medicare and will not recieve a single cent in return. The SSA records do prove who is recieving benefits partly funded by these criminals. That would be those who recieve retirement checks from SS. Without the billions of dollars paid in by these criminals the U.S. citizen would not be recieving a check at all.
> 
> ...


First off, I wouldn't believe much of what the U.S. government tells us in it's statistics. It has become a propaganda tool and is most probably slanted information, JMO. But more importantly, the illegal problem today is more extreme than in other instances.

All countries have used immigration to bolster it's working class. The U.S. has used illegals for that purpose for ages. The difference is that today illegal immigration is not only used for cheap labor but is also used to add to the voter roles a large influx of democratic bias. The intent is to change society more towards a socialist bias.

Also, not all illegals are taking on meanial jobs. Jobs going to illegals, my guess based on recent hispanic populations increases ion SoCal, are good paying jobs in govenment. This is the true picture of illegals today, not the image depicted by some based on what happened yesterday.

Also, illegals may not get SSC from the government but they have received a lot. Today, the school system has become basically a welfare system. It gives away free food, clothing, school supplys. Free housing is rampant. All to the benefit of illegals, among others. Los Angeles School System (LAUSD) is guessed by some to have a huge illegal population.


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## Stann (Jan 2, 2005)

pancho said:


> ...
> 
> First they benefited by being able to pick and choose what job they would like to do. Second they benefit from the lower priced products provided by the low pay the illegals recieve. Third, they can recieve a retirement funded by illegals who continue to do all of the work.
> 
> ...


You're living in the past. That's not the true condition of today.

First, illegals are taking jobs that many Americans will definitely take. They are no longer just working inthe fields... jobs Americans may not wish to take.

Second, prices today are high and inflated. Cheap labor from China is the primary reason for lower cost goods.

Third, illegals do not fund the retirement of Americans since many no longer have pensions and SSC is bankrupt.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> No, I think you misunderstood. I said if an illegal can take your job you didn't have much of a job anyway


Nope. You've just forgotten what you've said

You said they *couldn't* be taking jobs because they had "no ID , address, experience, etc..."

But now you're claiming 75% are paying into SS, whcih means they DO have ID.

You're just making random *excuses *for* ILLEGAL *aliens



> According to the numbers of our own internal revenue and SSA, over 75% of illegals pay into the fund and never collect a cent.


Show us those number please


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Stann said:


> First off, I wouldn't believe much of what the U.S. government tells us in it's statistics. It has become a propaganda tool and is most probably slanted information, JMO. But more importantly, the illegal problem today is more extreme than in other instances.
> 
> All countries have used immigration to bolster it's working class. The U.S. has used illegals for that purpose for ages. The difference is that today illegal immigration is not only used for cheap labor but is also used to add to the voter roles a large influx of democratic bias. The intent is to change society more towards a socialist bias.
> 
> ...


Stann, while I do not trust our gov. very far do you know of any better source for statistics? Do you have someone in mind that keeps more and better records? Sure it is a propaganda tool, for either side. It is just so easy. We can pick and choose what statistics we want to prove our side.

The illegal problem today is more extreme than in other instances. Our other problems are also more extreme. The U.S. is in a bad position. We have been spending more then we make for a very long time. Now we are taxed at a rate of 60%-70% of what we make. 41% of the money our gov. spends everyday is borrowed money. We do have a very large problem and we are looking around for someone to blame it on but will settle for something that changes the focus from us to some one else.

Illegals are used for cheap labor. Always has been and it will continue. But Stann, illegals cannot vote. While they might choose one political party over another they cannot vote in any election. The U.S. has been moving toward a more socialist way of governing for a long time. Just too many people looking for someone else to pay the bills. One look at the national debt and the budget will prove that.

Illegals are taking a larger number of jobs everywhere. They are not limited to the menial jobs they once were. I don't know if they are taking gov. jobs or not. For a few years I worked a gov. job. I know I would not have been hired if I didn't have the documents needed to prove who I was and if I was here legally. Things may have changed or those checking the documents may not be doing their job. That I don't know.

Illegals can not recieve SS benefits from our gov. They are not suppose dto be recieving many of the other benefits our gov provides to it's citizens either. Again there is documentation needed to recieve these benefits. If we have gov. workers bypassing these documents, forging, or entirely skipping them it is our problem with the people we hire to do a job. They are not doing their job.
Illegals do not have a choice about sending their children to our schools, it is mandatory. They will be inprisoned for refusing. Schools do not have a problem with this. They are paid an amount for each child attending their school each day. They do not really care where that child comes from or who that child is. They are paid X amount of $ for a child setting in a seat.
The money paid is not used for teaching children, administration costs are much greater than teachers salary. Look at any school. The administration staff is much larger than the teaching staff.
One reason the schools have become such a welfare system is because the gov. rewards those who spend more. Each department is allowed a budget. If at the end of the year they have not spent the entire amount in their budget they have that same amount deducted from next years budget. They are encouraged to spend everything in their budget and ask for more.
They are rewarded with a larger budget each year.

On the subject of free housing. That is another documentation mess up. Illegals do not have the correct documentation needed to recieve free housing. If they do recieve free housing it is because some gov. worker is not doing their job. Sure there are illegals recieving free housing. What we need to do is ask how that happened and who is responsible for the mistake.
If we have a person who continues to make the same mistake and it costs us money each time it would make sense to find that employee and make sure that it does not continue. One employee can be costing us a very large amount of money by not doing their job correctly. What would be the best thing to do, let the employee continue to make the same mistake or get a new employee?


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Pancho, your posts are SPOT-ON; but it's like pouring water on a duck's back. I admire your enthusiasm.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

LaManchaPaul said:


> Pancho, your posts are SPOT-ON; but it's like pouring water on a duck's back. I admire your enthusiasm.


Thanks.
At one time I believed much the same way as some on this forum.
To prove I was right I had to do some research. While doing the research I became more and more interested in what I was finding.
There is a wealth of information available at the touch of a keyboard.
All it takes is a curiosity about how things work.

Oh yes, in my research to prove my point I found out I was wrong.


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## JMD_KS (Nov 20, 2007)

Oh man, I was So gonna ignore this guy, but I just chose a random sentence from a thread, & thought I would comment. 


> Illegals do not have a choice about sending their children to our schools, it is mandatory. They will be inprisoned for refusing. Schools do not have a problem with this.


For God's sake, WHAT an outright LIE!!!!!!!!!!! NO court in THIS country will IMPRISON an ILLEGAL for NOT sending their ILLEGAL child to an American school!!! :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: If this is true, please provide the proof, & then I can decide what insane person needs to be shot that enacted such a "law"!!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JMD_KS said:


> Oh man, I was So gonna ignore this guy, but I just chose a random sentence from a thread, & thought I would comment.
> 
> 
> For God's sake, WHAT an outright LIE!!!!!!!!!!! NO court in THIS country will IMPRISON an ILLEGAL for NOT sending their ILLEGAL child to an American school!!! :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: If this is true, please provide the proof, & then I can decide what insane person needs to be shot that enacted such a "law"!!


Please learn a few things about the law if you should decide to post much more. Illegals can and will be imprisoned for many more things that a citizen will be. Children must be educated if they are in the U.S. Some citizens can choose to home school. There are different laws in different areas. Some places make it harder to home school and quite a bit of paperwork is involved. Other places are quite easy to home school. It will depend on your location how easy or difficult it is.

Illegals do not have access to the paperwork needed in the places where it is mandatory. Even in places where it is easy to homeschool illegals have a problem. Many people keep a close eye on any mexican thinking all are illegals. Seeing a child or children home during school hours will be noticed and they will soon have a visit from officials wanting to know why the child or children are not in school.
Schools are paid for the number of children they have attending school. Since most schools nowdays have huge administrative staffs they need every child they can find to fill a seat. Their jobs depend on it. They don't really like to see people take money away from them.

There is an easy way to prove it. Especially if you have a child or children.
Before you decide you need to shoot anyone you should remove your child or children from school. Just take them out of school. It shouldn't take long before someone will notice and you will be recieving a visit. They should be able, much better than me, to explain why your child must recieve an education and what will happen if you prevent your child from getting one.
I know you would never trust what I would post as you have definately not read or researched anything else I have posted.
Go ahead and try it yourself.

There will be an added bonus. Not only will they give you the needed information. They will put it in a way even you can understand. The bonus, they will already be there when you have to shoot some insane person who would dare tell you that you have to allow your child an education. You won't even have to hunt the person down, they will come to you.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JMD_KS said:


> Oh man, I was So gonna ignore this guy, but I just chose a random sentence from a thread, & thought I would comment.
> 
> 
> For God's sake, WHAT an outright LIE!!!!!!!!!!! NO court in THIS country will IMPRISON an ILLEGAL for NOT sending their ILLEGAL child to an American school!!! :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: If this is true, please provide the proof, & then I can decide what insane person needs to be shot that enacted such a "law"!!


Since you put me on ignore I thought I would ask you a few questions anyway.

Have you ever heard of the Immigration Reform and Control Act?
How about The Welfare Reform Bill of 1996?

You would probably appreciate these bills. 
Fotr those who stull refuse to read and research before posting I will help a little.

The Welfare Reform Bill of 1996 disqualified illegal immigrants fro nearly all means-tested gov. programs. This includes food stamps, housing assistance, medicade, and medicare funding hospitalization.

Now lets see who is committing a criminal act.
For all of those who insist the illegals are getting these benefits, there is the bill that says they are not qualified for these programs. Do you think the people who allow them to recieve these benefits are criminals?

According to this bill the only services illegals can still get are emergency medical aid and K-12 education. Those who let them obtain other benefits are also criminals.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> The Welfare Reform Bill of 1996 disqualified illegal immigrants fro nearly all means-tested gov. programs. This includes food stamps, housing assistance, medicade, and medicare funding hospitalization.


You need to tell Los Angeles County about the law then. It seems they haven't heard

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2010/mar/county-spends-600-mil-welfare-illegals



> About a quarter of the county&#8217;s welfare and food stamp issuances go to parents who reside in the United States illegally and *collect benefits for their anchor babies*, according to the figures from the county&#8217;s Department of Social Services. In 2009 the tab ran $570 million and this year&#8217;s figure is expected to increase by several million dollars



You also want to overlook all the OTHER types of "welfare" ILLEGALS receive:



> Americans pay around $22 billion annually to provide illegal immigrants with welfare benefits that include food assistance programs such as free school lunches in public schools, food stamps and a nutritional program (known as WIC) for low-income women and their children. Tens of billions more are spent on other social services, medical care, public education and legal costs such as incarceration and public defenders.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You need to tell Los Angeles County about the law then. It seems they haven't heard
> 
> http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2010/mar/county-spends-600-mil-welfare-illegals
> 
> ...


Looks like we may have some people who are thiefs in Los Angeles County. Some more people doing illegal acts and these seem to be U.S. citizens.
Wonder what excuse they use for breaking the law?
Can they read? The Welfare Reform Bill is pretty simple. I could even understand it.
Now do you believe not everyone wants the illegals to return to Mexico. Wonder how much money would we save if we just got rid of the thiefs and those who are committing fraud?

Evidentially you are really not that good at reading either. Just read the bill.
What excuse do you have for the U.S. citizens who are breaking the law?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Some more people doing illegal acts and these seem to be U.S. citizens.


The only "citizens" it mentioned were the *anchor babies*


> Wonder what excuse they use for breaking the law?


You haven't shown they are breaking any laws. You've just voiced an opinion
Take it up with Los Angeles County. Maybe they will hire you as a legal interpreter



> Evidentially you are really not that good at reading either. Just read the bill


Evidently the bill doesn't mean what you think it does, or those people wouldn't be getting anything


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## Stann (Jan 2, 2005)

pancho said:


> Stann, while I do not trust our gov. very far do you know of any better source for statistics? Do you have someone in mind that keeps more and better records? Sure it is a propaganda tool, for either side. It is just so easy. We can pick and choose what statistics we want to prove our side.


Unless the statistics are rather overwelming, I wouldn't use them. Anyway, be wary of them since for every one given you can find a compelling, competing one. Read your own statement. "It is just so easy. We can pick ...". So, DON'T FALL INTO THE EASY TRAP!!!



> The illegal problem today is more extreme than in other instances. Our other problems are also more extreme.


That's not a valid arguement for accepting illegals. Because all our problems are extreme we should accept the extreme problem of illegals???? That's nuts.



> The U.S. is in a bad position. We have been spending more then we make for a very long time. Now we are taxed at a rate of 60%-70% of what we make. 41% of the money our gov. spends everyday is borrowed money. We do have a very large problem and we are looking around for someone to blame it on but will settle for something that changes the focus from us to some one else.


Are you looking for someone to blame. For me, I'm looking for the solution.



> Illegals are used for cheap labor. Always has been and it will continue. But Stann, illegals cannot vote.


So, what? They're still the recipient of a whole lot of government money. And, all without voting!!! How about that.



> While they might choose one political party over another they cannot vote in any election. The U.S. has been moving toward a more socialist way of governing for a long time. Just too many people looking for someone else to pay the bills. One look at the national debt and the budget will prove that.


It doesn't need to be that way. But, the elites have decided that the USA needs a bigger population base in order to compete with China. Thus, they have social engineered our society into a more DENSELY POPULATED society. Have you heard the term "smart growth"?



> Illegals are taking a larger number of jobs everywhere. They are not limited to the menial jobs they once were. I don't know if they are taking gov. jobs or not. For a few years I worked a gov. job. I know I would not have been hired if I didn't have the documents needed to prove who I was and if I was here legally. Things may have changed or those checking the documents may not be doing their job. That I don't know.


Wake up and join the real world.



> Illegals can not recieve SS benefits from our gov. They are not suppose dto be recieving many of the other benefits our gov provides to it's citizens either. Again there is documentation needed to recieve these benefits. If we have gov. workers bypassing these documents, forging, or entirely skipping them it is our problem with the people we hire to do a job. They are not doing their job.


What??? Are you saying that it is OK to do illegal things as long as someone isn't doing their job and CATCHING THEM??? Oh, my.



> Illegals do not have a choice about sending their children to our schools, it is mandatory. They will be inprisoned for refusing. Schools do not have a problem with this. They are paid an amount for each child attending their school each day. They do not really care where that child comes from or who that child is. They are paid X amount of $ for a child setting in a seat.
> The money paid is not used for teaching children, administration costs are much greater than teachers salary. Look at any school. The administration staff is much larger than the teaching staff.


WAKE UP!!! The education system is screwed up because the liberals made it that way. Is that any reason to keep the screwed up system as it is????



> One reason the schools have become such a welfare system is because the gov. rewards those who spend more. Each department is allowed a budget. If at the end of the year they have not spent the entire amount in their budget they have that same amount deducted from next years budget. They are encouraged to spend everything in their budget and ask for more.
> They are rewarded with a larger budget each year.


It's a mess. The school budget is actually a welfare budget and school budget. THAT'S WHY A TYPICAL SCHOOL BUDGET IS SO HUGE. IT'S A BIG LIE. If it is a needed welfare cost then just budget it in a welfare department, and not a school budget (this way they cannot hide the true facts).



> On the subject of free housing. That is another documentation mess up. Illegals do not have the correct documentation needed to recieve free housing. If they do recieve free housing it is because some gov. worker is not doing their job. Sure there are illegals recieving free housing. What we need to do is ask how that happened and who is responsible for the mistake.
> If we have a person who continues to make the same mistake and it costs us money each time it would make sense to find that employee and make sure that it does not continue. One employee can be costing us a very large amount of money by not doing their job correctly. What would be the best thing to do, let the employee continue to make the same mistake or get a new employee?


Pancho,
JMO, but you're pretty much wrong on all accounts. And that's why I don't like getting into long threads such as this one. WAKE UP!!! It's not a mistake. It's intentional. It's called selective enforcement. Government will enforce some laws and ignore others. In the case of housing, these goverment workers LOOK THE OTHER WAY in regard to immigration status. It's endemic to the system.

SPECIAL ORDER 40 in Los Angeles!!!! Sanctuary City in Los Angeles.

WAKE UP!!!!


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## Stann (Jan 2, 2005)

pancho said:


> Since you put me on ignore I thought I would ask you a few questions anyway.
> 
> Have you ever heard of the Immigration Reform and Control Act?
> How about The Welfare Reform Bill of 1996?
> ...


A typical liberal would claim that there are laws on the books......

THE LAWS ARE NOT ENFORCED!!!! WAKE UP!!!! IT IS ILLEGAL TO BE IN THIS COUNTRY WITHOUT PROPER DOCUMENTATION. YET, PEOPLE DO IT!!! FOR EACH LAW IN THE WELFARE REFORM BILL THERE ARE WHOLE CITIES WITH GOVERNMENT WORKERS THAT IGNORE IT.

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT YOU'RE LIVING IN FANTASYLAND...

JMO


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The only "citizens" it mentioned were the *anchor babies*
> 
> 
> You haven't shown they are breaking any laws. You've just voiced an opinion
> ...


What about those citizens who work for Los Angeles Couinty.

The Welfare Reform Bill of 1996 explains everything. I didn't voice an opinion. I just gave you the name of the bill and what it says.
I really don't have a problem with Los Angeles County. They can do as they choose. From reading about them it seems they are the ones with the problem.
I wouldn't be much help if they hired me. My first duty would be to fire the people who are giving away money and services.

You are free to read the bill and decide for yourself what it means. I thought it was simple and straight to the point.
The exact wording is "The 1996 Welfare Reform Bill disqualifies illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, medicaid, and medicare-funded hospitalization."
Now I may be wrong, often am, but to me that means the illegals should not be able to recieve these benefits mentioned. You may not agree. Please feel free to tell me what exactly do you think it means.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> What about those citizens who work for Los Angeles Couinty


Call them up and tell them they are "breaking the law" because you read it on the internet



> I thought it was simple and straight to the point


Evidently not



> Bill disqualifies illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs





> Please feel free to tell me what exactly do you think it means


What I think doesn't matter. 
They ARE getting welfare , along with free schooling, free food and medical care


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> My first duty would be to* fire the people *who are giving away money and services.


Strange how you want to enforce THAT law, while ignoring the law the ILLEGAL aliens broke by coming here


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Stann said:


> Unless the statistics are rather overwelming, I wouldn't use them. Anyway, be wary of them since for every one given you can find a compelling, competing one. Read your own statement. "It is just so easy. We can pick ...". So, DON'T FALL INTO THE EASY TRAP!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stann, I don't like to fall into the easy trap. I just don't know of any other source. If you have any I sure would read them.

I am not trying to find a valid argument for accepting the illegals. I am just stating a fact. Times are rough now. We are having a rough time with the illegals. Both are just facts that I think you will agree with.

Yes, I do blame it on the gov. They were the ones who caused this problem and they are the ones who allow it to continue. I was thinking you were blaming the illegals. I just blame the gov. for letting it get into the shape it is in now.

Stann, the only benefits an illegal qualifies for is emergency medical care and k-12 education. The Welfare Reform Bill of 1996 clearly states that. Again I will ask you to read it and decide for yourself if that is what it says. I can't control how gov. workers do their job or if they even do it.

Yes, I agree with you on the "smart growth". If you remember all along I have been saying there is a plan in place and it is working great for those who came up with it. If you have been listening much to the news you will have seen where China and Japan are in line to take over first and second place with the U.S. falling to 3rd.

Sorry, I don't know what you are talking about on your next point. I stated when I worked for the gov. I had to provide adequate paperwork to be hired.
Don't know how that means I should wake up and join the real world.
The real world I was living in demanded adequate paperwork or you would not be hired. That is a fact.

No I am not stating it is alright to do illegal things. What I will say is the normal illegal does not know the laws of the U.S. Most cannot even speak english. The U.S. has hired people whose only job is to check if applicants for benefits are qualified. That is their job. Don't you think we should place the blame on them if they choose to not do the job they were hired to do and paid to do? If they are not doing their job we might as well get rid of them and install a large barrel filled with food stamps on one side of a door and another on the other side containing the keys to housing. Self serv would be much cheaper in the long run.

I will agree completely, the education system is a wreck. In your opinion the liberals did the damage, sounds likely. Why blame the illegals then. Education is one of two programs they qualify for.

Stann, the biggest reason a school's budget is so high is the ease things can be inside of it. If anyone asks a question they are immediately as trying to hurt the children. Admion cost continue to climb. Admin costs are much greater than teachers cost. Can you explain why we need so much admin in a school? And if you can, I hope so, why is that the fault of illegal children?

I will agree completely. It is intentional and not a mistake. That is exactly what I have been saying all through this thread. Why do we settle for selective inforcement? It is one thing I have been trying to get people to realize, the government has a plan. That plan does not include getting rid of the illegals and closing the border. You are trying to remove the blame of gov. workers not doing their job and place it on people who do not have any idea what the laws of the U.S really are.
From reading many of the post on the subject I can begin to understand. There must be quite a lot of people, U.S. citizens, who have no idea what the law is. I have given several laws and bills. All it takes is looking them up. They are simple and easy to understand. For some reason many people refuse to believe there is such laws, refuse to read them, and continue to make excuses for the people who are hired to enforce them.

Hey, I have an idea. Lets hire a few illegals to do those jobs. They would only be doing another job the U.S. citizen refuses to do. Problem is while the U.S. citizen may refuse to do the job they continue to accpet the pay check.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Stann said:


> A typical liberal would claim that there are laws on the books......
> 
> THE LAWS ARE NOT ENFORCED!!!! WAKE UP!!!! IT IS ILLEGAL TO BE IN THIS COUNTRY WITHOUT PROPER DOCUMENTATION. YET, PEOPLE DO IT!!! FOR EACH LAW IN THE WELFARE REFORM BILL THERE ARE WHOLE CITIES WITH GOVERNMENT WORKERS THAT IGNORE IT.
> 
> ...


Just about anyone who can read would and should claim there are laws on the books. Is that wrong somehow?

Stann, whose fault is it if the laws are not enforced? Yes, it is illegal to be in this country without proper identification. Somehow I can't quite understand why you think that is so terrible but just go along with paying people to do a job and them refusing to do it. In your world is that right. Do you believe a man should take money from others for doing a job then refuse to do the job?
Do you take money for doing a job and then refuse to do the job? I don't think so but I can't understand why you will defend those who do that exact thing.

Stann, I do believe it. Notice how many time I have said the exact same thing. No fantasy world here. I know it is happening, I have told you several times. It has been happening for many years. You seem to think it is ok to hire someone to do a job then blame others when they do not do the job.
Why is it that you blame others for a group of people not doing the job they were hired and paid to do?
THAT IS WHAT I CALL LIVING IN A FANTASYLAND.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Call them up and tell them they are "breaking the law" because you read it on the internet
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You seem to be forgetting, I am not the one with a problem. I did not write tha article about all of the money spent. It is their money, they can spend it on whatever they want. Just don't expect me to feel bad for them when they are broke. Again it isn't my problem and I am not the one complaining. They can spend their money on paper airplanes and try to reach the moon. It is their money, not mine and I don't control it.

What part of the bill did you have a problem understanding. We can go through it word at a time if you cannot understand it.

Yes, I agree. It doesn't matter what you think. Is it your money being spent? Do you have any control over how it is spent?
Again, illegals are disqualified from collecting welfare. Now I can't tell anyone else how they should spend their money, after all it isn't mine. I can disagree with them but if they choose, and that is the big word, CHOOSE to spend it I have no control and shouldn't have any.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Strange how you want to enforce THAT law, while ignoring the law the ILLEGAL aliens broke by coming here


I am not ignoring that law. We have hired thousands of people to enforce that law. I am not one of those collecting a check for that job. I can't hire and fire those people either.
I am a taxpayer though. I would like to see those my taxes got to pay a salary to do their job.
Are you saying you don't want those who are paid to control illegal immigration to do their job. 
Would you agree if they were doing the job they are paid to do we would not have quite as many illegals?
Are you OK with allowing illegals to come to this country?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> *Are you OK* with *allowing* illegals to come to this country?


Obviously you haven't been paying any attention.

They aren't "allowed". 
If it were "allowed" , it wouldn't be ILLEGAL


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## fetch33 (Jan 15, 2010)

How about this scenario... illegal comes to country, gets injured on the job... one they won't even admit to having. Gives false SS number. Needs lots of extended care only the hospital that got that person is stuck with them. No services available.. hospital stuck providing care when they won't see a dime. This happens all over the US, but mostly in the border states. What do you do with these people? Ship them to Mexico and drop them on the tarmac? Charge Mexico with their bill? Find the 'employer' and make them pay the bill? It is a growing problem.


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Obviously you haven't been paying any attention.
> 
> They aren't "allowed".
> If it were "allowed" , it wouldn't be ILLEGAL


Where are you? Here is what I call a perfect "post of the day"!!


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Danaus29 said:


> Around here the illegals are taking all the construction and landscaping jobs. And they work most of the fast food joints. Illegals get paid way less than Americans who used to perform those same jobs. I have watched the going wage for landscape workers drop from $9 to $12 an hour to $6.50 to $7.00. There was a big hailstorm here a few months back so everyone around is getting their roof replaced. Every single person working the crews of 5 different construction companies is Mexican. They don't speak English, they speak Spanish. These are jobs American citizens used to do but won't do now because the wages are so much less (but the price to the customer has not dropped) and the workers are now subcontractors meaning no benefits.


That's happened here to Danus. It's not unusual for employers to charge $45+ an hour for the minimum wage help they hire now. The employers make a killing but the overall tax rolls are going down and more and more people get govt aid of some type. I don't know how it can continue?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

As for illegals not being allowed to get federal and state benefits, someone missed the memo that the welfare and food stamp departments are not allowed to ask if an applicant is legal or illegal. Even if the applicant cannot speak or read English the department is not allowed to ask if they are legal residents. Additionally, once that anchor baby is born it is a legal resident and _entitled_ to state and federal benefits, benefits that take the whole family into account. 

The state of Ohio gets a huge round of applause for moving in the right direction regarding illegals and drivers licenses. They now ask everyone if they are a US citizen. Illegals are not supposed to get a driver's license here anymore.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> We can go through it word at a time if you cannot understand it.


I think it's you who needs to understand a 15 year old law doesn't always mean what it says. 
You keep insisting "illegals can't get welfare", even in the face of *evidence* that they DO




> Some people mistakenly think that immigrants are not eligible for welfare. Several years ago, Congress did attempt to render immigrants ineligible for most forms of welfare. However, subsequent backpedaling by Congress and the executive branch has undone most of those reforms. Furthermore, *many immigrant families get welfare through the eligibility of their U.S. citizen children*. (It is also important to realize that even when immigrants are *ineligible for federal welfare programs*, the *burden *of their support is simply *shifted over to the state and local welfare agencies.*
> Refugees, asylees, and all amnestied illegal aliens are exempt from the public charge requirement.3 Congress has decided that the American people will serve as the sponsors for these immigrants and pick up the tab for their support.


http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters7fd8


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

bowdonkey said:


> That's happened here to Danus. It's not unusual for employers to charge $45+ an hour for the minimum wage help they hire now. The employers make a killing but the overall tax rolls are going down and more and more people get govt aid of some type. I don't know how it can continue?


Wish we could get workers that cheap. Ours charge $165/hr for forman and $95/hr for laborer.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I think it's you who needs to understand a 15 year old law doesn't always mean what it says.
> You keep insisting "illegals can't get welfare", even in the face of *evidence* that they DO
> 
> 
> ...


Bearfoot, I know they do get welfare. But by law they aren't supposed to.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> As for illegals not being allowed to get federal and state benefits, someone missed the memo that the welfare and food stamp departments are not allowed to ask if an applicant is legal or illegal. Even if the applicant cannot speak or read English the department is not allowed to ask if they are legal residents. Additionally, once that anchor baby is born it is a legal resident and _entitled_ to state and federal benefits, benefits that take the whole family into account.
> 
> The state of Ohio gets a huge round of applause for moving in the right direction regarding illegals and drivers licenses. They now ask everyone if they are a US citizen. Illegals are not supposed to get a driver's license here anymore.


Danaus, I know the illegals do get benefits. But by law they are not supposed to. To even qualify a person has to have a verifible SS number.

That law is taken about as serious as the one that says they aren't supposed to be here.

This does show the politicians do want them here. Maybe most of the people don't want them here but, like I have been saying, the politicians do what they want. Changing from one party to another does not make any difference.

Way back when this thread or one of the threads that is about the same started I tried to explain how the illegals were here because they were wanted. Everyone got all stirred up. It has taken this long, this much arguments, this much work to get some to realize people do want the illegals here. It may only be the politicians that want them here but people continue to elect them.

The politicians will flaunt every law, give benefits, protect, and encourage the illegals.

Sure do hope you understand what I have been trying to explain.
There are people who want the illegals here.
Those people are the politicians.
We keep electing them.
Both the republicans and the democrats want the same thing.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> But by law they aren't supposed to


How long will you continue to repeat that misconception when* it's been shown *there are *exceptions* to the law you keep citing?

You have to face reality eventually
The Federal law ONLY covers Federal funds


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

pancho said:


> Wish we could get workers that cheap. Ours charge $165/hr for forman and $95/hr for laborer.


What kind of cut does the foreman and laborer get in the construction and landscaping trades?


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## Stann (Jan 2, 2005)

pancho said:


> Just about anyone who can read would and should claim there are laws on the books. Is that wrong somehow?
> 
> Stann, whose fault is it if the laws are not enforced? Yes, it is illegal to be in this country without proper identification. Somehow I can't quite understand why you think that is so terrible but just go along with paying people to do a job and them refusing to do it. In your world is that right. Do you believe a man should take money from others for doing a job then refuse to do the job?
> Do you take money for doing a job and then refuse to do the job? I don't think so but I can't understand why you will defend those who do that exact thing.
> ...


Pancho,
You are a typical liberal. I believe that you actually believe the lies that you are telling. As a good liberal would say, repeat a lie often enough and it become the truth. I won't waste my time any further on this. But, your lie stating_ "Why is it that you blame others for a group of people not doing the job they were hired and paid to do?_" about sums up your deceptions...
if you are breaking the law then you are guilty, even though law enforcement has not caught you yet. If government workers are paid to catch illegals, and they don't catch illegals then understand that it is still against the law to be illegal. 

WAKE UP.
It's clear to me that you believe that it's OK to break the law if you are not caught.
Everyone, observe the liberal mind.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

They don't have to have a ss number. Here they can get welfare with a tin. The Spanish coalition supplies the illegal Mexicans with a tin. And even so, baby born in the us 10 minutes after mama arrives will get a ssn. So even though mama, papa and the rest of the family are illegal they all collect the benefits thanks to anchor baby.

If the politicians want the immigrants maybe they should be deported, right out of office and this country. Won't happen though, all you need to be able to vote is an address. Even a cable bill with your name and address earns immigrants the ability to register and vote. So what if it is illegal? The info is never verified and all they have to do is say one little lie.


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## Stann (Jan 2, 2005)

pancho said:


> Just about anyone who can read would and should claim there are laws on the books. Is that wrong somehow?
> 
> Stann, whose fault is it if the laws are not enforced? Yes, it is illegal to be in this country without proper identification. Somehow I can't quite understand why you think that is so terrible but just go along with paying people to do a job and them refusing to do it. In your world is that right. Do you believe a man should take money from others for doing a job then refuse to do the job?
> Do you take money for doing a job and then refuse to do the job? I don't think so but I can't understand why you will defend those who do that exact thing.
> ...


Pancho,
I apologize for being harsh but it seems that in most of your post replies on this thread you are either mistaking what is said (unintentional) and replying in an incorrect manner or else you are just putting a backward spin to each reply(intentional). I really don't know which it is.

For example you say, "_Just about anyone who can read would and should claim there are laws on the books. Is that wrong somehow?_ Pacho, of course it's not WRONG. There's nothing wrong with laws on the books. How did you make that MISTAKE. Then later you say, "_Do you take money for doing a job and then refuse to do the job? I don't think so but I can't understand why you will defend those who do that exact thing._ Pancho, NOBODY IS DEFENDING THEM. I'M NOT DEFENDING THEM. HOW DID YOU MAKE THAT MISTAKE. BUT STILL, THE ILLEGAL IS GUILTY OF BEING IN THIS COUNTRY ILLEGALLY. DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

How about this one?http://www.barnesville.com/archives/2795-Sick-illegal-immigrant-costs-one-county-400,000.html


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> How about this one?http://www.barnesville.com/archives/2795-Sick-illegal-immigrant-costs-one-county-400,000.html


Barack Hussein Abdullah Obama has a national health care plan that will take good care of this criminal - it's geared for just this sort of thing.
___________________________________________
The man, whose name was not released, suffered a massive stroke while he was in jail. His last arrest was for drug trafficking charges.

Chief Deputy Stan Copeland told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution that the man was in a coma and now requires constant care because he is paralyzed. He does not have health insurance.
____________________________________________

He was only trying to feed his family - illegal means criminal and they don't give a rat's patoot. We are supposed to be crying for him now because he got caught and is now sick.


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

Why don't they deport illegals back to Cuba? An illegal is an illegal.Had they deported him when he was caught trafficking drugs,Cuba could spend the money,and not us taxpayers.But I'm not surprised about not deporting back to Cuba,they are not deporting them back to Mexico either,and we are footing their bills also.:grit: We might as well not have any representatives in Washington looking out for our well being,they are not,they are representing Cuba an Mexico:flame: Lets remember that in Nov!!!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Stann said:


> Pancho,
> I apologize for being harsh but it seems that in most of your post replies on this thread you are either mistaking what is said (unintentional) and replying in an incorrect manner or else you are just putting a backward spin to each reply(intentional). I really don't know which it is.
> 
> For example you say, "_Just about anyone who can read would and should claim there are laws on the books. Is that wrong somehow?_ Pacho, of course it's not WRONG. There's nothing wrong with laws on the books. How did you make that MISTAKE. Then later you say, "_Do you take money for doing a job and then refuse to do the job? I don't think so but I can't understand why you will defend those who do that exact thing._ Pancho, NOBODY IS DEFENDING THEM. I'M NOT DEFENDING THEM. HOW DID YOU MAKE THAT MISTAKE. BUT STILL, THE ILLEGAL IS GUILTY OF BEING IN THIS COUNTRY ILLEGALLY. DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?


No need to apologize, you have nothing to apoligize for. We are having a discussion. We have different opinions. 
What I am trying to explain is we have laws on the books to stop just about everything that you don't like.

You don't like to see the illegals in our country. We have laws conserning that.
You don't like to see illegals benefit from gov. sponsored programs. We have laws conserning that.
You don't like to see a business hire illegals. We have a law conserning that.
You don't like to see illegals driving without a license. We have a law conserning that.

This is just my opinion. You seem to think the illegal is breaking the law by being here. They are. Legally they should not be in this country. We have a law conserning that.

Again this is just my opinion. You do not have a problem with U.S. citizens hired to enforce these laws we have not doing their job. You do not seem to have a problem with gov. employees not doing the job they are paid for. Without them the illegals would not recieve any gov. sponsored programs.

I agree completely. The illegals are breaking our laws by being here illegally.
Why do we have such laws if we are not going to enforce them? Who is responsible for enforcing the laws?
You seem to be interested in the results instead of the reason.
If the people we pay were doing their job we would not have any illegals in our country.
Again, just my opinion. We pay people to do a job. That job is to protect our country. We pay them to keep illegals out of our country. They accept our money. WE STILL HAVE ILLEGALS IN OUR COUNTRY.
Can you understand I want these people to do their job or get out of the way so we can hire someone who will do the job.

Guess we are right back to square one. If we really want that we might have to hire illegals to do that job. From what I hear they will do the job that U.S. citizens won't do.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> Why don't they deport illegals back to Cuba? An illegal is an illegal.Had they deported him when he was caught trafficking drugs,Cuba could spend the money,and not us taxpayers.But I'm not surprised about not deporting back to Cuba,they are not deporting them back to Mexico either,and we are footing their bills also.:grit: We might as well not have any representatives in Washington looking out for our well being,they are not,they are representing Cuba an Mexico:flame: Lets remember that in Nov!!!


Eddie, what do you suggest we do in november. Seems like every option we will have in november we have had before. I haven't seen any difference yet and we have the same options in each election.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Wow, I forgot what we're arguing about.

Lets form 2 lines. Ist line: Those who want illegal aliens in our country.
Those who want illegal folks to recieve SS, medicaid, education.

2nd line: Those who do NOT want illegals in our country. Those who want our current laws enforced. 

OK, maybe a 3rd line: Those who want illegals out & the 'anchor baby' law amended.


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

pancho said:


> Eddie, what do you suggest we do in november. Seems like every option we will have in november we have had before. I haven't seen any difference yet and we have the same options in each election.


New blood thats aganist whats happening now, and whats left, pick the best of the worst.Thats about all we can do,without blood shed.That might have to come later,if we have to fire the whole crowd.We can't expect our troops to fight our battles overseas for America, if we aren't willing to fight for it here.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

pancho said:


> No need to apologize, you have nothing to apoligize for. We are having a discussion. We have different opinions.
> What I am trying to explain is we have laws on the books to stop just about everything that you don't like.
> 
> You don't like to see the illegals in our country. We have laws conserning that.
> ...


*Now that is the post to top all posts. *

I would only add that IF the GOVERNMENT is not doing its job, WE must remember who the government is. The government of the US is We The People. Why beat up an "illegal" or an "anchor baby" when WE allow it to continue. Some vote R some vote D; we call each other names like liberal or conservative. However the results remain decade after decade. This problem didn't just accur when some idiot yelled anchor baby.

Some of us voted for "change," not for a party affiliation. From the flip-flop of the other candidate, it seems that the non-change that we got is still better than what we would have gotten from the other party. WE NEED another option in November - not the same ole' same ole' that is being offered. But the rallying cry of "change it back" would provide us the same positions as before. 

Good thoughtful posts there Pancho. Color me liberal as well because your logic makes sense to me.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> New blood thats aganist whats happening now, and whats left, pick the best of the worst.Thats about all we can do,without blood shed.That might have to come later,if we have to fire the whole crowd.We can't expect our troops to fight our battles overseas for America, if we aren't willing to fight for it here.


If we use past performance as an indicator of any party anything we do in november will not matter.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

LaManchaPaul said:


> *Now that is the post to top all posts. *
> 
> I would only add that IF the GOVERNMENT is not doing its job, WE must remember who the government is. The government of the US is We The People. Why beat up an "illegal" or an "anchor baby" when WE allow it to continue. Some vote R some vote D; we call each other names like liberal or conservative. However the results remain decade after decade. This problem didn't just accur when some idiot yelled anchor baby.
> 
> ...


I sure hate to admit this. I don't know what a liberal is. I have seen liberal and conservative used quite a bit but really don't know what they are. Never really thought about it much, never was curious about either.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Danaus29 said:


> They don't have to have a ss number. Here they can get welfare with a tin. The Spanish coalition supplies the illegal Mexicans with a tin. And even so, baby born in the us 10 minutes after mama arrives will get a ssn. So even though mama, papa and *the rest of the family are illegal they all collect the benefits thanks to anchor baby.*
> 
> If the politicians want the immigrants maybe they should be deported, right out of office and this country. Won't happen though, *all you need to be able to vote is an address*. Even a cable bill with your name and address earns immigrants the ability to register and vote. So what if it is illegal? The info is never verified and all they have to do is say one little lie.


Perhaps in Ohio your words are true. Perhaps Ohio should be deported if they allow a person to vote who doesn't provide "photo" ID and proof of US citizenship in order to register to vote. AND 'photo' ID in order to actually cast a ballot. Georgia requires it. I wonder if you'd consider calling your local registrar's office and confirm your beliefs. If your post is true, a registered complaint is in order.

Here, it is not a "Spanish coalition" who supplies a "tin" but the IRS that provides a tax identification number in order that the gov. can collect taxes on the earnings. Here, "the rest of the family" would not be allowed to collect benefits because one sibling is a US citizen.

BUT as Pancho has described in detail on several posts, it "WE" allow these issues to continue and when we focus our frustrations and hatred towards the problem rather than toward the enablers, our efforts are futile. 

Danaus, I apologize if I sound harsh. That is not my intention. I appreciate your post.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Here's the link to the voter registration form. Read it yourself, no ssn or dl required.

http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/upload/publications/election/VRform.pdf

Once registered you automatically receive an absentee ballot by mail for each general election. No need to ever show an id.

The reason Ohio is an illegal immigrant hotspot is because it is so easy to vote and collect benefits. They used to be able to get a drivers license but that was just recently changed. Still lots of illegals driving because their license has not yet needed to be renewed.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Once registered you automatically receive an absentee ballot by mail for each general election. No need to ever show an id.


And it seems Democrats fight every effort to require a picture ID be shown in order to vote
[ame]http://www.google.com/search?complete=1&hl=en&source=hp&q=democrats+voter+ID&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=C82SURqhtTLqSLJXcygTKj7DICgAAAKoEBU_QFFsF[/ame]


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> WE must remember who the government is. The government of the US is We The People.


Nice cliches, but they mean NOTHING, since "we the people" don't all AGREE on what needs to be done.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Nice cliches, but they mean NOTHING, since "we the people" don't all AGREE on what needs to be done.


We the people have never agreed on a single thing. Sometimes the majority have to ignore what the minority wants. Sometimes the minority has more power than the majority.

Usually the people who get to choose just happens to be those with the most money.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

LaManchaPaul said:


> *Now that is the post to top all posts. *
> 
> I would only add that IF the GOVERNMENT is not doing its job, WE must remember who the government is. The government of the US is We The People. Why beat up an "illegal" or an "anchor baby" when WE allow it to continue. Some vote R some vote D; we call each other names like liberal or conservative. However the results remain decade after decade. This problem didn't just accur when some idiot yelled anchor baby.
> 
> ...


We the people continue to tell our elected servants what we want them to do. They almost always cater to some special interest group and ignore the will of the people. (Obama care, auto bailouts, bank bailouts, selective enforcement of laws, etc...) We try to vote them out, but they lie, and tell us what we want to hear, then once in office, they turn their backs on their constituants and do as they please. Then they redistrict their area's so it's harder for someone to challenge them. Should be a law, if they don't follow through with their promises and represent their constituants, off to another country they go. One way ticket to anywhere but the US, and all personal assets turned over to the state they represented!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> We the people continue to tell our elected servants what we want them to do. They almost always cater to some special interest group and ignore the will of the people. (Obama care, auto bailouts, bank bailouts, selective enforcement of laws, etc...) We try to vote them out, but they lie, and tell us what we want to hear, then once in office, they turn their backs on their constituants and do as they please. Then they redistrict their area's so it's harder for someone to challenge them. Should be a law, if they don't follow through with their promises and represent their constituants, off to another country they go. One way ticket to anywhere but the US, and all personal assets turned over to the state they represented!


We the people actually encourage our elected servants to lie to us. Makes us feel better. If there is ever a person running for any elected office that ever hints at the truth the majority of we the people make fun of him and turn our backs on him.

They turn their back on us as they have little respect for anyone that would put such a person as them in office. They know what they are and how they got into the position that allows them to run for office. Not a single person elected into office is ever a surprise to anyone who actually looks at their past.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Danaus29 said:


> Here's the link to the voter registration form. Read it yourself, no ssn or dl required.
> 
> http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/upload/publications/election/VRform.pdf
> 
> ...


(mouth agape) Whattt?? 

No checks... none. I'm just bewildered at such. And if a felon isn't in jail, can vote... 

You know, I am reminded of so many posters on here who make a comment of the need for Mexicans to change Mexico into a better place... Perhaps we could start north of the border with a few changes. 

Really, I always vote and everyone knows me. Yet the person asks to see a photo ID; and I gladly produce it.  A Ph.D. I know came unglued once when his neighbor (poll worker) asked to see his ID... hehehe "it's the law" she told him.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Nice cliches, but they mean NOTHING, since "we the people" don't all AGREE on what needs to be done.


*We The People*. 

Wow If it's a "nice cliche," I REALLY like it! :nana:


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Wow If it's a "nice cliche," I REALLY like it!


"Liking" it doesn't change the fact that your use of it was meaningless rhetoric.

Even Pancho explained it didn't mean anything, although I don't think he intended to


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Paul, we asked for change. What we got was id must be presented if you want to vote in person. And hand in hand was the "anyone can have it" absentee ballot.

Actually I goofed just a tiny bit. You don't automatically get sent the ballot, you get the request for an absentee ballot. Just sign and they will send you one, or was it just check the box and you'll get the absentee ballot? I can't remember for sure. And we pay for all those requests to be printed and mailed, even though very few people vote absentee.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> We the people actually encourage our elected servants to lie to us. Makes us feel better. If there is ever a person running for any elected office that ever hints at the truth the majority of we the people make fun of him and turn our backs on him.
> 
> They turn their back on us as they have little respect for anyone that would put such a person as them in office. They know what they are and how they got into the position that allows them to run for office. Not a single person elected into office is ever a surprise to anyone who actually looks at their past.


That too!


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## Stann (Jan 2, 2005)

pancho said:


> ...
> *can you understand i want these people to do their job or get out of the way so we can hire someone who will do the job.*
> guess we are right back to square one. If we really want that we might have to hire illegals to do that job. From what i hear they will do the job that u.s. Citizens won't do.


hire illegals to keep illegals out of the country? Is that what you want? Heheheh. That's funny.


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## Stann (Jan 2, 2005)

pancho said:


> ...
> *Can you understand I want these people to do their job or get out of the way so we can hire someone who will do the job.*
> Guess we are right back to square one. If we really want that we might have to hire illegals to do that job. From what I hear they will do the job that U.S. citizens won't do.


HIRE ILLEGALS TO KEEP ILLEGALS OUT OF THE COUNTRY? IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT? HEHEHEH. THAT'S FUNNY.

So, now you agree with us that you wish illegals out of this country. Pancho, you need to join the Tea Party Movement!!!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Stann said:


> HIRE ILLEGALS TO KEEP ILLEGALS OUT OF THE COUNTRY? IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT? HEHEHEH. THAT'S FUNNY.
> 
> So, now you agree with us that you wish illegals out of this country. Pancho, you need to join the Tea Party Movement!!!


To be honest, I don't care one way or the other. I know they aren't going anywhere. I can whine and complain about the illegals and it won't cause a single one to cross back over the border. I can invite every mexican I see to come to the U.S. Again, it don't matter.

I can see the good side of illegals in the U.S. I can also see the bad side of illegals in the U.S. It does not have any effect on my life either way and probably never will.

It is a little hard for me to get excited about sending them all home when I know we would just have to go get them in a short amount of time.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

pancho said:


> We the people have never agreed on a single thing. Sometimes the majority have to ignore what the minority wants. Sometimes the minority has more power than the majority.
> 
> Usually the people who get to choose just happens to be those with the most money.


What you have now is 'we the people' voicing what we want: over 2/3rd of the country is for the AZ law. Does that mean most folks want illegals HERE? Don't think so. Seems pretty united to me. Since there's only about 1/5th who are against AZ law.
What you have is elected officails IGNORING the will of the people. Been going on for over a yr & 1/2.

Some examples: the majority by far was & STILL IS against the HC debacle. Ignored.
The majority was & STILL IS against the stinkulus bill. Ignored.
The majority was & still is against the 1st porkulus budget this admin put forth. Ignored.

Just another fact: over 3/4ths of the country think this admin should STOP BLAMING THE LAST ADMIN. Ignored.

The majority was & is AGAINST trying KSM in NYC. Ignored.
The majority was & is against suing AZ. Ignored.
Majority was & is against crap & tax. Ignored.
The majority is still against the unprecedented spending. Ignored.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Tricky Grama said:


> What you have now is 'we the people' voicing what we want: over 2/3rd of the country is for the AZ law. Does that mean most folks want illegals HERE? Don't think so. Seems pretty united to me. Since there's only about 1/5th who are against AZ law.
> What you have is elected officails IGNORING the will of the people. Been going on for over a yr & 1/2.
> 
> Some examples: the majority by far was & STILL IS against the HC debacle. Ignored.
> ...


TG, don't you think there is a problem if all of the elected politicians continue to ignore the wants and need of the majority of the people.
From what I can see they have been doing pretty much the same for as long as I can remember. What I can't understand is how they continue to be elected. There has to be something I am failing to see.

How is a politician elected into office without the majority of people supporting them?

Is it possible the majority really agrees with what their elected officials are doing but are less vocal than the minority and do not really want everyone to know their true feelings?

How is it possible for a politician to have a history of believing a certain way, tell the people how he believes, tell the people what he intends on doing if elected, then win the election and have the majority complain what he does?

There has to be something I am missing. The majority are supposed to elect our politicians. The politicians do not do what the majority wants. The politician gets elected again.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

pancho said:


> TG, don't you think there is a problem if all of the elected politicians continue to ignore the wants and need of the majority of the people.
> From what I can see they have been doing pretty much the same for as long as I can remember. What I can't understand is how they continue to be elected. There has to be something I am failing to see.
> 
> How is a politician elected into office without the majority of people supporting them?
> ...


You'll have to show me examples of blatant disregard for what 'we the people' being ignored like we are now. I cannot recall a time in history where enormous legislation like HC, trillion dollar stinkulus, etc was shoved down throats w/3/4ths of the nation objecting. 

I don't see that "the majority really agrees with what their elected officials are doing but are less vocal than the minority and do not really want everyone to know their true feelings?" The majority IS vocal!! Check out the TP. Check the polls. 
As far as "continuing to elect" these creeps, we have to wit for Nov. Could not do anthing for all this time except TP protests.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Dang Pancho. I think that you and I went to the same school of hard knocks.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> "Liking" it doesn't change the fact that your use of it was meaningless rhetoric.
> 
> Even Pancho explained it didn't mean anything, although I don't think he intended to


I doubt that the phrase is meaningless rhetoric to other countries' citizens who DON'T HAVE IT! :huh:

One may explain another's words and may assign meaning to whatever. Those commentaries doesn't change the posted writings. I too, wonder how it is that you and I and other voters manage to screw up the gov the way that we do. :shrug:


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Tricky Grama said:


> You'll have to show me examples of blatant disregard for what 'we the people' being ignored like we are now. I cannot recall a time in history where enormous legislation like HC, trillion dollar stinkulus, etc was shoved down throats w/3/4ths of the nation objecting.
> 
> I don't see that "the majority really agrees with what their elected officials are doing but are less vocal than the minority and do not really want everyone to know their true feelings?" The majority IS vocal!! Check out the TP. Check the polls.
> As far as "continuing to elect" these creeps, we have to wit for Nov. Could not do anthing for all this time except TP protests.


TG, if what you say is true we wouldn't be in the shape we are in.
If it is the majority that is vocal and do not agree with the elected officials why don't the majority remove these politicians?

I can see the polls. We have many different choices of polls to choose from.
I have checked out the TP. Just my opinion but they are no different than any other group. They make a lot of noise but we see little results.

Seems like the majority wants the illegals to go back to mexico. Is this something that has come up only in the last few months. If I remember correctly ever since I have been a member of this forum, and even before, there have been quite a few complaining about the illegals. Can you name me a single politician that has listen to the majority? 
That, to me, shows a blatant disregard for We the people. It didn't just happen in the last election.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> "Liking" it doesn't change the fact that your use of it was meaningless rhetoric.
> 
> Even Pancho explained it didn't mean anything, although I don't think he intended to


Sorry, you have failed to understand just about anything I have posted to date. This is again another failure on your part to understand.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I doubt that the phrase is meaningless rhetoric to other countries' citizens who DON'T HAVE IT!


Spin it all you like.."We the People" means nothing, in the context in which you used it, unless ALL the people agree


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Sorry, you have failed to understand just about anything I have posted to date. This is again another failure on your part to understand.


I understand eveything you post.
You've said so many contradictory things I think you've forgotten some of what you've said

This is where you proved "we the people" really have no real control over the Govt anymore:



> We the people actually encourage our elected servants to lie to us. Makes us feel better. If there is ever a person running for any elected office that ever hints at the truth the majority of we the people make fun of him and turn our backs on him.
> 
> They turn their back on us as they have little respect for anyone that would put such a person as them in office. They know what they are and how they got into the position that allows them to run for office. Not a single person elected into office is ever a surprise to anyone who actually looks at their past


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I understand eveything you post.
> You've said so many contradictory things I think you've forgotten some of what you've said
> 
> This is where you proved "we the people" really have no real control over the Govt anymore:


I don't think you stop to really read what anyone else posts. It would cut into the time you need to post about what people really mean in their own posts.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

We the people haven't had control of "our" government for decades. And until we the people stop voting for career politicians we will not have control over the govt.


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## Stephen in SOKY (Jun 6, 2006)

When was the last time a POTUS was elected by the majority of the citizens of the United States? Not the majority of voters, but citizens eligible to vote? I don't recall ever seeing a POTUS elected by the majority of our Nation.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

There was just an anniversary for the Hormel meat packing strike.

The workers took a pay freeze for a couple of years and then after that Hormel came back with a 38% pay reduction. Then jobs that had supported families for decades became a "job that an American wouldn't do". The workers went on strike. Hormel beat them and then brought in foreign (probably illegal) workers to replace them.

I doubt they dropped the price on canned meat.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You need to tell Los Angeles County about the law then. It seems they haven't heard
> 
> http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2010/mar/county-spends-600-mil-welfare-illegals
> 
> ...


Collecting aid for an anchor baby is not illegal. The baby is a legal citizen of the US and is entitled to the benefits. A child under 18 may not collect the benefits themselves as they are considered a minor, so someone has to be the administrator of the benefits. In most or all cases it is the child's legal guardian, which in the case of the legal citizen baby, it will be the child's parents.

The person receiving such aid for the benefit of the child may very well be an illegal alien, but the money itself is for a legal citizen of the US. 

If one wants to stop anchor babies from receiving aid, then the law will need to be changed regarding how one becomes a US citizen. Right now, if one is born in the US, one is automatically given citizenship.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> *I don't think *you stop to really read what anyone else posts. It would cut into the time you need to post about what people really mean in their own posts.


You didn't think ILLEGALS could LEGALLY get welfare either, but it's been shown they can.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You didn't think ILLEGALS could LEGALLY get welfare either, but it's been shown they can.


No, again you failed to understand. I showed you where they did not qualify for gov. benefits. You insisted they still got them. You may be right, I posted as such. But still they did not qualify for the benefits.
A person can decide to give what ever they want to another person. That does not mean they were qualified, it just meant the gov. worker failed to do their job and gave away our money. They were giving away something that didn't belong to them and collecting something they did not deserve, a pay check.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

sidepasser said:


> Collecting aid for an anchor baby is not illegal. The baby is a legal citizen of the US and is entitled to the benefits. A child under 18 may not collect the benefits themselves as they are considered a minor, so someone has to be the administrator of the benefits. In most or all cases it is the child's legal guardian, which in the case of the legal citizen baby, it will be the child's parents.
> 
> The person receiving such aid for the benefit of the child may very well be an illegal alien, but the money itself is for a legal citizen of the US.
> 
> If one wants to stop anchor babies from receiving aid, then *the law will need to be changed* regarding how one becomes a US citizen. Right now, if one is born in the US, one is automatically given citizenship.





*Correct*. You've summed it up well, on how I see it.

And certain career politicians are pulling the nose rings of those who would believe that the R would do something about the 14th. Jest git'um back in power and they'll fixit. hint: This wasn't a problem when they held the majority before.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I showed you where they did not qualify for gov. benefits


No you showed what you THOUGHT was a law that prevented it.

I showed you where they in fact* DID *recieve them.



> No, again you failed to understand


If all you can do is repeat yourself while denying reality, then I'm done.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> No you showed what you THOUGHT was a law that prevented it.
> 
> I showed you where they in fact* DID *recieve them.
> 
> ...


You showed me a group of people who were breaking the law. Much like the illegals.
That would be the same as me telling you the illegals are really legal and using the same reason you have used. They have to be legal because they are here and no one is sending them back.


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## Stann (Jan 2, 2005)

pancho said:


> *To be honest, I don't care one way or the other. * I know they aren't going anywhere. I can whine and complain about the illegals and it won't cause a single one to cross back over the border. I can invite every mexican I see to come to the U.S. Again, it don't matter.
> 
> I can see the good side of illegals in the U.S. I can also see the bad side of illegals in the U.S. It does not have any effect on my life either way and probably never will.
> 
> It is a little hard for me to get excited about sending them all home when I know we would just have to go get them in a short amount of time.


Oh come on, Pancho. That's not being honest. You wouldn't be spending so much time on this thread, espousing one side, if you didn't care "one way or the other". UNLESS, YOU JUST LIKE TO ARGUE FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUING!!!

one last note: If a person believes that lawfullness is just, then someone illegal should believe that they should suffer the penalty for being illegal.

JMO, YOU CARE. BUT, YOU JUST WON'T ADMIT THAT YOU ARE TAKING THE WRONG SIDE!!!!

... maybe because LIBERALS can't seem to admit that there is a "RIGHT AND WRONG SIDE". You should admit that fact, also, Mr. Liberal Pancho.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Stann said:


> Oh come on, Pancho. That's not being honest. You wouldn't be spending so much time on this thread, espousing one side, if you didn't care "one way or the other". UNLESS, YOU JUST LIKE TO ARGUE FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUING!!!
> 
> JMO, YOU CARE. BUT, YOU JUST WON'T ADMIT THAT YOU ARE TAKING THE WRONG SIDE!!!!
> 
> ... maybe because LIBERALS can't seem to admit that there is a "RIGHT AND WRONG SIDE". You should admit that fact, also, Mr. Liberal Pancho.


I will have to admit I do enjoy a good conservation. Like I said, I don't really care and it will not have much of an effect on me either way.
The main reason I spent so much time on this thread and other like it is because I have spent so much time researching it.

A few years ago I came across a book that got me interested in the Mexico U.S. relationship. I couldn't put the book down and learned quite a bit. It was one of the most interesting books I had read. The book gave many web sites for additional info. These were sites that I had no idea even existed. It told of many different exercises the U.S. and Mexico had over the years. Also many of the treaties and agreements. There were many agreements between the U.S. and Mexico that I had never heard of.

I still have the book somewhere. I will have to look it up and I will post some of the things in it.

I don't really know what a liberal is. I might be one and a liberal might be something I would not like. Don't really know. If I am one or if I am not one guess there isn't much I can do to change it. I don't worry about labels much.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

If you don't rant and rave and namecall like I do and like others who agree with me, then you're "ON THE WRONG SIDE." 

Who needs facts, research, personal interactional knowledge??? 

Oh, and she/he ain't done, she/he ain't even cooked mediium.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

LaManchaPaul said:


> If you don't rant and rave and namecall like I do and like others who agree with me, then you're "ON THE WRONG SIDE."
> 
> Who needs facts, research, personal interactional knowledge???
> 
> Oh, and she/he ain't done, she/he ain't even cooked mediium.


Paul, I am used to being on the wrong side. To me it doesn't seem to be wrong but many times I am mistaken.

Many times a person will rant and rave because they do not have facts to back them up. Some think the lack of facts can be overcome with accusations and falsehoods. Guess they might be right, it works for them and the group they surround themselves with.


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## Stann (Jan 2, 2005)

pancho said:


> I will have to admit I do enjoy a good conservation. Like I said, I don't really care and it will not have much of an effect on me either way.
> The main reason I spent so much time on this thread and other like it is because I have spent so much time researching it.
> 
> A few years ago I came across a book that got me interested in the Mexico U.S. relationship. I couldn't put the book down and learned quite a bit. It was one of the most interesting books I had read. The book gave many web sites for additional info. These were sites that I had no idea even existed. It told of many different exercises the U.S. and Mexico had over the years. Also many of the treaties and agreements. There were many agreements between the U.S. and Mexico that I had never heard of.
> ...


To be a liberal and be truly honest about it's purpose and intent is nothing I would apologise for. But, too many liberals are liars and deceivers, especially on this forum. Their intent is to propagandize and promote a false image. I won't give examples... if I did I would probably be HT banned. But, today's Liberals (ie. Progressives) have a distinct purpose and agenda.

I agree with you that Mexico is an interesting country and culture, one that I like a lot... and the women are generally quite beautiful. But, that doesn't change my opinion about illegal aliens, and my opinion about the consequences of this mass migration of poor Mexican immigrants.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

pancho said:


> TG, if what you say is true we wouldn't be in the shape we are in.
> If it is the majority that is vocal and do not agree with the elected officials why don't the majority remove these politicians?
> 
> I can see the polls. We have many different choices of polls to choose from.
> ...


No, didnt just happen, but you cannot deny the surge in folks paying attentin-NOW. You'll see more voters in Nov that ever b/4 in an off election.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

LaManchaPaul said:


> *Correct*. You've summed it up well, on how I see it.
> 
> And certain career politicians are pulling the nose rings of those who would believe that the R would do something about the 14th. Jest git'um back in power and they'll fixit. hint: This wasn't a problem when they held the majority before.


Harry Reid proposed ending/modifying the 14th back in '95 (96?) & it got nowhere. Now the "Rs" are for it.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> Harry Reid proposed ending/modifying the 14th back in '95 (96?) & it got nowhere. Now the "Rs" are for it.


TG, so there you go, prooving what so many of us were trying to tell you before you get the threads a frothed up with your punchin' n jabbn'. IT IS NOT a Rep, or a Dem. that our country has problems with. IT IS NOT just the current administration. 

Folks harp about how Mexicans should fix Mexico so that their economy and standard of living would hold their citizens at home, yet we do nothing about the same craft, lies and corruption AND DISINGENUOUSNESS in our own politicians. 

I don't know that what you say is true, you don't give a reference, BUT it sure sounds like it could be true. IT sounds true because it would have given support to the Dems to have an issue that many voters relate to and the in-charge Reps were ignoring. The play continues without the audience throwing tomatoes. In fact, the R's will likely pull lots of voters in Nov just because L. Graham and other half-truthers courted them with this issue.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Tricky Grama said:


> No, didnt just happen, but you cannot deny the surge in folks paying attentin-NOW. You'll see more voters in Nov that ever b/4 in an off election.


Sure hope you are right.

I don't know if more voters is the answer. Really, I don't know what might be the answer. It would seem like there will have to be a change in the gov. I just don't think any real change will happen.

We just seem to bounce from one party to the other then back to the first.
No real changes, well none for the better. No other has the power to really challenge either party and if some party somehow gained the power it would be because they had found a way to beat the other two at their own game.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Tricky Grama said:


> Harry Reid proposed ending/modifying the 14th back in '95 (96?) & it got nowhere. Now the "Rs" are for it.


TG, do you think maybe some politicians propose some things, promise some things, and run on some principals that they know will never happen. Just telling the people such things will guarantee them some votes. They already know they will never have to make good on their promises.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

pancho said:


> TG, do you think maybe some politicians propose some things, promise some things, and run on some principals that they know will never happen. Just telling the people such things will guarantee them some votes. They already know they will never have to make good on their promises.


Oh, no, I think politicians never promise what they can't keep. BWHahahaha!
I just feel very sure that more will be held to the fire since this last crammingofstuffthatwesaidwedidnotwant happened.

If someone runs w/this type of campaign, I'll vote for 'em...

Who wants this HC bill?
Who wants cap & trade?
Who wants their energy bills to skyrocket?
Who wants the Mosque 2 blks away from the WTC?
Who wants to investigate those who oppose said mosque?
Who wants me to declare that the USA is a muslim nation?
Who wants KSM to be tried in NYC?
Who wants the secret ballot at unions disolved?
Who wants the "Fairness Doctrine"?
Who wants NASA to make its #1 priorty to reach out to muslims?
Who wants me to go abroad & apologize for the USA?
Who wants to see me bow to muslim princes & dictators?
Who wants me to sue a state?
Who wants amnesty for illegal aliens?
Who wants an ineffectual leader of ICE?
Who wants marxists & socialists in the WH as advisors?
Who wants stricter gun control?
Who wants spendingspendingspending & more spending?
Who wants more porkulus?
Who wants to triple the debt?
Who wants their taxes to skyrocket?
Who wants the Patriot Act expanded so that more freedoms are taken away?
Who wants bills passed when the citizens are against them 2-1?
Who wants me to bribe congresscritters to vote for unpopular bills?
Who wants my staff/friends to bribe congresscritters to run or not run as I see fit?
Who wants me to declare a city's cops are stupid when I don't know all the facts?
Who wants my staff to fire people b/c they might be the subject of a TV show?
Who wants me to state any network news is not really news?
Who wants me to blame the last administration for everything?
Who wants me to claim the HC debacle will lower the debt?
Who wants me to promise the HC bill will cut insurance costs by 1000%?
Who wants me to disparage physicians by claiming they cut off feet & yank out tonsils?
Who wants me to address our military-TWICE!!-and say "corpsemen" for corpsmen?

OK-those folks can form a line to the left, the rest of you come vote for me!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Tricky Grama said:


> Oh, no, I think politicians never promise what they can't keep. BWHahahaha!
> I just feel very sure that more will be held to the fire since this last crammingofstuffthatwesaidwedidnotwant happened.
> 
> If someone runs w/this type of campaign, I'll vote for 'em...
> ...


Don't really think you will have that many in your group. Most people pick out one thing they like about a politician and skip over everything esle. Or some pick out one thing they dislike and skip over everything else.
Too much skipping over.


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