# PG&E has now shut off electricity to approximately 25% of their customers



## cornbread (Jul 4, 2005)

PG&E has now shut off electricity to approximately 25% of their customers

https://poweroutage.us/area/state/california


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

If you're a prepper, it will be a test. If not, you're SOL, huh?

geo


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## secondhandacres (Nov 6, 2017)

Did I miss something? Why did the shut off the power? Maintenance? Storm?


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Cause we in California live in a third world country now as far as power goes. Pay through the nose and it's unreliable and can be shut off at the power company's whim (not just during fire season but when they're not making enough for the amount of people and need to do rolling brown/blackouts).

Time to stop the government backed public utility monopolies and let in some competition that might be able to safely provide power even when the wind blows. I'm super interested to see what the county of San Diego does with the power company they're planning on starting up to compete with SDG&E.

*edit - secondhandacres - they shut off the power out here when we have strong winds blowing east to west because they have been sued successfully several times for their power lines starting fires that cost millions of dollars in damage. So instead of fixing the problem they shut the power off whenever we get Santa Ana winds.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Can you blame them? The California legislature has decreed that the companies can be sued for what is essentially an act of God. 

If the wind blows down a pole or breaks a line and a fire ensues the company is held liable. The costs to erect storm-proof lines, or to bury them, would cost so much no one could afford electricity. 

Electric lines blow down all the time---I was without power for a few hours last week. If I and my neighbors were to sue the company our electricity bills would be so high that solar would seem like a bargain.

Mish; your electricity is expensive because the power companies have to build in almost inaccessible terrain. I saw the pictures during the last firestorms. One mountain after another. Then there is the issue of wages in California---the companies have to pay wages much higher than the rest of the country. All that adds up, and as a regulated utility the state guarantees rates that cover expenses. 

LOL; let us know if your government-operated power company works better than private enterprise.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Good for PG&E


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Believe me...NJ is not better...i think the hole US infrastructure is way behind, lets say Russia...smile
When we moved here 7 years ago, i had never experienced a power outage in my life before...(30+ years) 
Since then, i got me a generator, solar panels and backup batteries to get around the more or less constant brown outs, black outs and so on...
But thats what happening when you have your priorities wrong and over spend in useless (illegal attack wars, for example) and under spend in needed things (infrastructure, education for example)
At the end you might lifed "for free" for a while but then disaster strikes when all the streets, pipes and bridges need TLC all at ones...


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Oxankle said:


> Can you blame them? The California legislature has decreed that the companies can be sued for what is essentially an act of God.
> 
> If the wind blows down a pole or breaks a line and a fire ensues the company is held liable. The costs to erect storm-proof lines, or to bury them, would cost so much no one could afford electricity.
> 
> ...


God didn't put high voltage transformers amongst dry brush and trees and then refuse to do the necessary maintenance on them. But it's OK, He takes the blame for a lot of the stupid things we do, lol.


But yes, that's essentially why they cut the power, to prevent a repeat of last year's fires.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

I haven't been without power more than a total 6 hours in more than 20 years. That works out to less than 20 minutes per year......


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Meinecke said:


> Believe me...NJ is not better...i think the hole US infrastructure is way behind, lets say Russia...smile
> When we moved here 7 years ago, i had never experienced a power outage in my life before...(30+ years)
> Since then, i got me a generator, solar panels and backup batteries to get around the more or less constant brown outs, black outs and so on...
> But thats what happening when you have your priorities wrong and over spend in useless (illegal attack wars, for example) and under spend in needed things (infrastructure, education for example)
> At the end you might lifed "for free" for a while but then disaster strikes when all the streets, pipes and bridges need TLC all at ones...


Well, since we pay for much of the protection of the rest of the world because of the actions of...certain countries...in past wars, yes, we do waste a lot of money on military matters that...other countries...should be ponying up for. Instead...other countries...can spend that money on whatever they want to while our money is going into their protection. It's easy to feel smug about spending on other things when someone else is footing of the bill for the unsavory necessities. 

That's beside the point in the current context, our Federal government isn't in charge of local utilities. Much of our public utility infrastructure is in poor shape because many of our local/state governments allow monopolies to exist in these areas - water, power, trash, etc. Monopolies almost always end up in very expensive, poor service to customers. Competition creates better products, service, and lower prices in general.

That's the bottom line. Without having to take it to political levels or feeling morally superior about something there's no reason to feel morally superior about.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

When our power goes out, if I think it's gonna be a while, I walk out in the garage and flip that red handle on the side of the right side of the transfer switch down from "grid" to "solar" and we keep on operating critical circuits such as lights, refrigeration, etc. Other end of that switch is a battery bank and 6kw of solar panels.









Won't run the heavy load stuff like the wall oven (cooktop is propane), or the dryer, but there is the cloths line if needed and a wood cook stove oven in the auxiliary kitchen if something needs baking.










Grid supplied electric is quite handy and I'm not about to chop it off.....but we can do just fine without it for long time.


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## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

Ah, the price of living in SO CALled "paradise" ! These are the same folks gloating about how wonderful the California weather is when the flyover states are getting blizzards.


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

I don't blame PG&E for shutting down the power in areas prone to high winds, and dry conditions. PG&E did not run these line without the municipalities, state's desire, and approval.

As they were hung out to dry, sued and fined by these same people and the media last year. It is prudent for them to shut down the power to reduce their blame in a repeat of event of the past.

I see this as no different than people building in known flood zones, then whine when they loose everything without insurance to a flood.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It doesn’t seem right to blame them for not providing electricity when there isn’t enough.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> Cause we in California live in a third world country now as far as power goes. Pay through the nose and it's unreliable and can be shut off at the power company's whim (not just during fire season but when they're not making enough for the amount of people and need to do rolling brown/blackouts).
> 
> Time to stop the government backed public utility monopolies and let in some competition that might be able to safely provide power even when the wind blows. I'm super interested to see what the county of San Diego does with the power company they're planning on starting up to compete with SDG&E.
> 
> *edit - secondhandacres - they shut off the power out here when we have strong winds blowing east to west because they have been sued successfully several times for their power lines starting fires that cost millions of dollars in damage. So instead of fixing the problem they shut the power off whenever we get Santa Ana winds.


How does a power company cause a fire?

I don't hear about power companies causing fires in other states.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Lack of maintenance is not an act of God. Where I live if the utilities need more money they hike the rates up. Everybody complains about it but we do pay it. 

And this approach works


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

HDRider if sparks hit brush or if a line breaks and falls into brush it can cause a fire. California is prone to fires because everything dries up in the summer

Apparently PG&E has not been cutting the brush in their right of way, AND they have not maintained their lines adequately. When I was a kid we shrugged off the strong winds of Fall, but then when I was a kid the power companies were doing a much better job


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

All I know is by us there is like at least a 100 yard clear cut right of way at the transmission line around us. In northern Michigan it is the same way are even wider and I've seen traveled hunted along them since I was a kid. This articles makes a case that PG&E does have a maintenance issue.

https://www.latimes.com/california/...-california-power-outages-grid-climate-change


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

100 yards clear-cut right away?
That would mean an awful lot of homes would not be able to have anything in That would mean that and awful lot of homes would not be able to have anything in their yard at alltheir yard
I thought some of the places where I lived in Alaska or extreme they required that no falling tree could touch the powerline on the way down. 
they also required a small area near the footprint of the wires be cleared.
So you had a clear-cut area that they basically random more over refute years that was maybe 25 feet on each side of the powerline and then a V-shaped follow up into the sky that had to be clear cut. 
Rather than fight with trying to maintain a V-shaped cut most homeowners simply cut the trees that would be into that zone off at ground level


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

AmericanStand said:


> 100 yards clear-cut right away?
> That would mean an awful lot of homes would not be able to have anything in That would mean that and awful lot of homes would not be able to have anything in their yard at alltheir yard
> I thought some of the places where I lived in Alaska or extreme they required that no falling tree could touch the powerline on the way down.
> they also required a small area near the footprint of the wires be cleared.
> ...


 I think you are talking about distribution lines, not transmission lines


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Terri said:


> HDRider if sparks hit brush or if a line breaks and falls into brush it can cause a fire. California is prone to fires because everything dries up in the summer
> 
> Apparently PG&E has not been cutting the brush in their right of way, AND they have not maintained their lines adequately. When I was a kid we shrugged off the strong winds of Fall, but then when I was a kid the power companies were doing a much better job


So it is brush causing the problem?

Why is this happening now, when it did not happen in the past?


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

I was also reading that PG&E is petitioning the state to suspend the practice of requiring PG&E supply power to any new remote developments in these mountainous areas of northern California.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

During the summer months, the mountains in California are just as dry as the Sonoran Desert. The state and the Forest service won't let them cut down the trees along the power lines. So when the wind blows down a line a single spark starts a huge fire.

If you live in a state where the bug loving tree huggers make the rules, you deserve what you get.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

flewism said:


> I think you are talking about distribution lines, not transmission lines


Ahhh good catch Talk about transformers and busted lines sparking got me to thinking of distribution lines and that’s where I was focused when I replied to your comment about transmission lines.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

HDRider said:


> So it is brush causing the problem?
> 
> Why is this happening now, when it did not happen in the past?


It has happened in the past but lack of power line maintenance and right of way maintenance has accelerated the situation.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Terri said:


> Apparently PG&E has not been cutting the brush in their right of way


The "environmentalists" wouldn't let them "destroy Nature" by cutting the brush.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Terri said:


> HDRider if sparks hit brush or if a line breaks and falls into brush it can cause a fire. California is prone to fires because everything dries up in the summer
> 
> Apparently PG&E has not been cutting the brush in their right of way, AND they have not maintained their lines adequately. When I was a kid we shrugged off the strong winds of Fall, but then when I was a kid the power companies were doing a much better job


Seems like I heard the evironmental extremists out there frown on bare ground. Lizards and small rodents need a nesting place.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Here the power company keeps every thing under, and on both sides of the wire. I have no say in the matter. It seems the Cali nuts want a say... Hence the problem... 

This “base camp” for coordinating tree cutting trucks and equipment has alarmed environmentalists in the Valley. According to Nancy Macy, chair of the Environmental Committee of the Valley Women’s Club, this has “terrified the community- what plan is PG&E is working from? Why doesn’t the public know anything about it? What are the impacts to the environment, especially in terms of hillside erosion and future mudslides, of cutting down large swaths of trees? What environmental clearance does PG&E have to cut down our trees?”

“PG&E is not adequately informing residents of their right to refuse to allow the removal or cutting of vegetation. PG&E is not a regulatory agency and their decisions do not carry the force of law,” Macy wrote in a lengthy email to county supervisors dated Sept. 14. That email also thanked 5th District Supervisor Bruce McPherson for his efforts “to keep PG&E from decimating the roadsides of the Santa Cruz Mountains.” 

http://www.ttownmedia.com/press_ban...le_748d5e14-bc53-11e8-b38c-87a33c1b09b1.html?​


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Interesting that the articles I have read damning PG&E for turning power off, but never seem to mention that everyone was notified days in advance that this was being done. Lets enhance the victim role instead.

I don't like the idea of turning off the electricity when it's PG&E's fault for not maintaining things. Nor do I like what the liberals have done going along with the environmentalists, but it sure beats another forest fire.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

flewism said:


> All I know is by us there is like at least a 100 yard clear cut right of way at the transmission line around us. In northern Michigan it is the same way are even wider and I've seen traveled hunted along them since I was a kid. This articles makes a case that PG&E does have a maintenance issue.
> 
> https://www.latimes.com/california/...-california-power-outages-grid-climate-change


 Tree huggers,......they are even attacking fore/brush clearing lines.



HDRider said:


> So it is brush causing the problem?
> 
> Why is this happening now, when it did not happen in the past?



People want to save the brush/frogs and trees more than they want to save the humans.





PS: California has had fires for thousands of years...……...


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Is hardly the environment loving people’s fault that PG&E is too cheap to do things correctly


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## D-BOONE (Feb 9, 2016)

They wont let PG&E maintain the lines and then hold them liable when the brush catches on fire.Save the brush pay the consequences. I think PG&E should shut off the power every time the wind blows 5mph. serves em right maybe they should take some of that settlement money and buy a generator or invest in solar power.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

The 'Grid' was down for 10 days out this way, over a week another time.
I didn't notice, my solar hasn't gone down in 14 or so years.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

D-BOONE said:


> They wont let PG&E maintain the lines and then hold them liable when the brush catches on fire.Save the brush pay the consequences. I think PG&E should shut off the power every time the wind blows 5mph. serves em right maybe they should take some of that settlement money and buy a generator or invest in solar power.


This.


When you let the Good Idea Fairy make your laws, and you try to insulate yourself from the unintended consequences, the people never get to see the practical application of their votes.... and stuff like what’s going on in Humbolt county tonight happens.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Meinecke said:


> Believe me...NJ is not better...i think the hole US infrastructure is way behind, lets say Russia...smile
> When we moved here 7 years ago, i had never experienced a power outage in my life before...(30+ years)
> Since then, i got me a generator, solar panels and backup batteries to get around the more or less constant brown outs, black outs and so on...
> But thats what happening when you have your priorities wrong and over spend in useless (illegal attack wars, for example) and under spend in needed things (infrastructure, education for example)
> At the end you might lifed "for free" for a while but then disaster strikes when all the streets, pipes and bridges need TLC all at ones...


Utilities for homes are provided and paid for by the homeowners that use them. If the homeowners are not paying enough then the utilities are likely to be substandard. If the homeowners do not allow the utilities to do maintenance as needed to provide reliable service then their are going to be more problems. 
Many of the people in California are getting whats been paid and voted for. But for some reason expect something different. 

Very little of this has anything to do with wars or other such foreign issues. Those are being handled by other taxes and votes.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

LOL:“PG&E is not adequately informing residents of their right to refuse to allow the removal or cutting of vegetation. PG&E is not a regulatory agency and their decisions do not carry the force of law,” Macy wrote in a lengthy email to county supervisors dated Sept. 14. That email also thanked 5th District Supervisor Bruce McPherson for his efforts “to keep PG&E from decimating the roadsides of the Santa Cruz Mountains.”

And now they sue? It looks to me as if they are getting what they asked for. By the way; when I lived in Tulsa there were people who screamed when the power companies wanted to cut their trees away from the power lines, even if the lines went THROUGH the tree top. Came the ice storms and they changed their minds.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It all seems pretty simple.
The locals won’t let pg&e do things the old way and pg&e refuses to do anything new. 

Who would have thought that could lead to a problem.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Oxankle said:


> And now they sue? It looks to me as if they are getting what they asked for. By the way; when I lived in Tulsa there were people who screamed when the power companies wanted to cut their trees away from the power lines, even if the lines went THROUGH the tree top. Came the ice storms and they changed their minds.


Ox you are looking at things from a very old fashioned corporate line. 

People are making it clear that they want things to change. 
The electric companies are resisting those changes.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

The power companies cannot assure customers that their lines will not fall-=--They do not control the weather, and the customer will not pay for weather-proof power grids. All over the country the power companies cut wide rights-of-way so that falling lines can be reached and repaired. If people resist clearing rights--of-way they must accept the consequences. The quoted paragraph posted earlier pretty plainly shows where the blame lies.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

So people want large trees overhanging power lines? Then they want the electric company to keep their lines away from the trees? Sounds a bit backwards IMO. Those people need to have the power shut off during high winds. Maybe the electric company should just remove the lines and poles, for the sake of the trees.

Here the electric company has a right of way around their lines where they can trim trees and brush so they do not pose a danger to the power lines. Our electric company cleared the lines here last summer. No protests mounted, no cease and desist orders filed.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> Ox you are looking at things from a very old fashioned corporate line.
> 
> People are making it clear that they want things to change.
> The electric companies are resisting those changes.


Well the people are getting some changes. 

In the recent past they got fires caused by poor maintenance of the undergrowth and the lines. Now the landscape is missing some homes and forest. Thats some changes and lots of business opportunities as a result. 

Seems the current “change” is to turn off the electric when the wind blows. More business opportunities as a result.

When they get tired of it perhaps there will be some other changes. We shall have to wait and see what the california people and corporations shows us next in their new business models.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Mish said:


> Cause we in California live in a third world country now as far as power goes. Pay through the nose and it's unreliable and can be shut off at the power company's whim (not just during fire season but when they're not making enough for the amount of people and need to do rolling brown/blackouts).
> 
> Time to stop the government backed public utility monopolies and let in some competition that might be able to safely provide power even when the wind blows. I'm super interested to see what the county of San Diego does with the power company they're planning on starting up to compete with SDG&E.
> 
> *edit - secondhandacres - they shut off the power out here when we have strong winds blowing east to west because they have been sued successfully several times for their power lines starting fires that cost millions of dollars in damage. So instead of fixing the problem they shut the power off whenever we get Santa Ana winds.


Dont forget they have declared 
bankruptcy to lessen the about they are sued for...lives lost in the campfire fire


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

People whine to get what they want, then they whine because they got what they wanted.
Patterns never change.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> God didn't put high voltage transformers amongst dry brush and trees and then refuse to do the necessary maintenance on them. But it's OK, He takes the blame for a lot of the stupid things we do, lol.
> 
> 
> .


How many hundreds of thousands of transfermers does PG&E maintain? How many start fires?...It is indeed an act of God. Californians either need to accept their Fate or expect no power.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

doc- said:


> How many hundreds of thousands of transfermers does PG&E maintain? How many start fires?...It is indeed an act of God. Californians either need to accept their Fate or expect no power.


LOL.
Pray to the god of electricity.
I'll keep praying to mine.
That "act of God" phrase is an insurance scam created by lawyers to get out of paying for negligence.
PG&E has only trimmed 31% of their power lines this year. 
It's an old con and I don't fall for it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> It's an old con and I don't fall for it.


I don't fall for con games either, but that has nothing to do with the power company in CA.
They wanted to clear the brush but weren't allowed.
The wind ("god") caused the fires.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I don't fall for con games either, but that has nothing to do with the power company in CA.
> They wanted to clear the brush but weren't allowed.
> The wind ("god") caused the fires.


Do you have a link to provide proof of those last two statements?

Power companies have the right and responsibility to maintain power line right-of-ways in their contracts and I know of no fire ever caused by wind alone.
I don't believe the friction would be great enough, but if you have other info then I'll take a look.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I think we have a pretty clear outline here of exactly who is ready to march to the corporate tune. 
Those of us with clear heads and independent thinking can see other ways to deal with this.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

muleskinner2 said:


> During the summer months, the mountains in California are just as dry as the Sonoran Desert. The state and the Forest service won't let them cut down the trees along the power lines. So when the wind blows down a line a single spark starts a huge fire.
> 
> If you live in a state where the bug loving tree huggers make the rules, you deserve what you get.


Don’t you live in a state with a bunch of meth heads do you deserve whatever they decide to do to you?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Danaus29 said:


> So people want large trees overhanging power lines? Then they want the electric company to keep their lines away from the trees? Sounds a bit backwards IMO. Those people need to have the power shut off during high winds. Maybe the electric company should just remove the lines and poles, for the sake of the trees.


The reason it sounds backwards to you is that you have it backwards. They do not want large trees overhanging the electric lines.
Making that false assumption leads to faulty logic. 
They want the large trees They don’t care about the powerlines.
And yes routing the powerlines away from the trees would solve the problem.
And I think you have the right answer in your proposal to remove the lines and poles.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

Failure to properly maintain line right-of-ways...brush killing and tree cutting/trimming that every other power company in the country does on a routine basis. 

But California has anti-logging, anti-herbicide Greenies running the show, so......no soup for you. Welcome to the 1850's.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> Do you have a link to provide proof of those last two statements?


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+147:18&version=KJV


> The Bible says, "He [God] makes His wind blow" (Psalm 147:18).


*Dispute erupts over brush-clearing plan:
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.co...brush-clearing-fire-plan-2013apr05-story.html*


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Oxankle said:


> The power companies cannot assure customers that their lines will not fall-.


 Why not ?
I’d be happy to open a company that would guarantee our lines will never fall ,never start a brushfire.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

farmrbrown said:


> Do you have a link to provide proof of those last two statements?
> 
> Power companies have the right and responsibility to maintain power line right-of-ways in their contracts and I know of no fire ever caused by wind alone.
> I don't believe the friction would be great enough, but if you have other info then I'll take a look.


In my time fighting forest fires I learned that wind in the form of lightning storms actually ignites most forest fires !
That advertisement only you can prevent forest fires is absolute bat poo.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Why not ?
> I’d be happy to open a company that would guarantee our lines will never fall ,never start a brushfire.


I'd love to hear your ideas about how to keep dry grass and brush from burning.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

shawnlee said:


> People want to save the brush/frogs and trees more than they want to save the humans.


Probably not the people who are losing their homes saving the brush.
Eco-nazis tend to live in cities and are usually ignorant of the subject they are so passionate about.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

doc- said:


> How many hundreds of thousands of transfermers does PG&E maintain? How many start fires?...It is indeed an act of God. Californians either need to accept their Fate or expect no power.


Wow talk about toeing the company line.
God never put any of them transformers anywhere He also didn’t put up any of those electric lines.
But it is that last line that is really the company logic “kiss our butts or suffer the consequences”


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> Wow talk about toeing the company line.
> God never put any of them transformers anywhere He also didn’t put up any of those electric lines.
> But it is that last line that is really the company logic “kiss our butts or suffer the consequences”


As usual, you plant your flag on Mount Absurd.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I'd love to hear your ideas about how to keep dry grass and brush from burning.


Lol that’s the straw man ?
I don’t have any ideas on how to keep dry grass and brush from burning. 
In fact my ideas on how to deliver power without power lines sparking fires will probably result in bigger more intense brushfires that would do far more damage.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

HDRider said:


> As usual, you plant your flag on Mount Absurd.


And you insult without adding anything to the conversation. Am I wrong in someway? Does God sneak in at night and put up transformers and powerlines


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> In my time fighting forest fires I learned that wind in the form of lightning storms actually ignites most forest fires !
> That advertisement only you can prevent forest fires is absolute bat poo.


That's true, good use of science there. However that wasn't what they found as the cause of last year's fires in that area.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

HDRider said:


> How does a power company cause a fire?
> 
> I don't hear about power companies causing fires in other states.


.........................................................................................................
...............Apparently , high winds in Calif. cause the wires to touch each other , thus creating large flashes and sparks falling onto dry brush and grass ! Or the lines can blown into contact with tree limbs and fires started that way .
...............If power lines were "in" phase they could touch and not flash over ! Large power lines that have multiple sets of 2 parallel conductors are "IN" phase and physically connected to each other ever so many feet ! , fordy


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I think the spark generally thrown up between a live wire and a ground. Ground wires are usually the highest where on the pole.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol that’s the straw man ?
> I don’t have any ideas on how to keep dry grass and brush from burning.
> In fact my ideas on how to deliver power without power lines sparking fires will probably result in bigger more intense brushfires that would do far more damage.


Nope, no straw men... They burn too easily. Honestly interested in your ideas on how to guarantee power distribution with no brush fires?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

California is just trying to get their citizens used to living under the Green New Deal.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Farmerga said:


> California is just trying to get their citizens used to living under the Green New Deal.


That's funny right there!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Nope, no straw men... They burn too easily. Honestly interested in your ideas on how to guarantee power distribution with no brush fires?


 Underground lines.

Now the law of unintended consequences dictates that with no one clearing the brush that brush will build up even more.
So when that brush is finally ignited expect even bigger fires .

Did you notice I never said There would never be another brushfire I just said that the powerlines wouldn’t cause it


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Nope, no straw men... They burn too easily. Honestly interested in your ideas on how to guarantee power distribution with no brush fires?


There are no "guarantees" just good common sense when you DO run power lines that minimize the possibility.
It's a lazy man that blames God for his own failures.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Underground lines.
> 
> Now the law of unintended consequences dictates that with no one clearing the brush that brush will build up even more.
> So when that brush is finally ignited expect even bigger fires .
> ...


You do know underground lines are not going to work on long distances and they can still start fires where they come out of the ground right? Trees can still blow down on transformers. Transformers can and do go bad.... Pge has it right, pull the plug during high winds, no power in the lines, no fires. If the evironmental folks want their brush.... Let them play with their lizards in the dark!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> There are no "guarantees" just good common sense when you DO run power lines that minimize the possibility.
> It's a lazy man that blames God for his own failures.


Agreed! But California is not well known for common sense. When they refuse to allow common sense practices like clean fire guards .....


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> You do know underground lines are not going to work on long distances and they can still start fires where they come out of the ground right? Trees can still blow down on transformers. Transformers can and do go bad.... Pge has it right, pull the plug during high winds, no power in the lines, no fires. If the evironmental folks want their brush.... Let them play with their lizards in the dark!


Why won’t underground lines work on long distances ?
Honestly you sound far more interested in punishing Californians for being environmentally aware then you do in solving the problem.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Agreed! But California is not well known for common sense. When they refuse to allow common sense practices like clean fire guards .....


Lol Common sense would indicate then when you live in the middle of a fire prone area you do not do fire causing things. 
I bet you don’t use open wiring in your house do you?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

This is a transitional period and PG&E is just going to have to learn how to deal with it.

Like most transitions there are some problems


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> This is a transitional period and PG&E is just going to have to learn how to deal with it.
> 
> Like most transitions there are some problems


It's not transitional. Maybe for PG&E but the southern California companies have been doing it for years. Their way of dealing with it is cutting power during Santa Anas.

Although maybe regulators will step in (hahaha) since it's finally affecting the big wigs in the central/northern part of the state.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Why won’t underground lines work on long distances ?
> Honestly you sound far more interested in punishing Californians for being environmentally aware then you do in solving the problem.


No one has said they don't work.
What is said is the amount of money is costs underground vs. overhead and then let people make their own decisions.
It's not necessary to bury the lines to prevent fires, there are methods well known to do this, but again it's up to people to make those decisions.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> How does a power company cause a fire?
> 
> I don't hear about power companies causing fires in other states.


Power companies probably cause cancer in California too.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Why won’t underground lines work on long distances ?
> Honestly you sound far more interested in punishing Californians for being environmentally aware then you do in solving the problem.


Insulating the wire for that much power would be cost prohibitive to say nothing of cumbersome to work with. I've no desire to punish anyone for anything other than perhaps violent criminals. Common sense and practical is more my thing.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Do you think it would be more cost prohibitive than the forest fires that They have been having?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

If Californians are willing to pay for it it shouldn’t be a problem.
Why should someone located in another state have a problem with California spending more money to have a better environment to live in .


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol Common sense would indicate then when you live in the middle of a fire prone area you do not do fire causing things.
> I bet you don’t use open wiring in your house do you?


Nope, it's more practical to use insulated wire in my house.... But that's only after the power has been cut way down at the transformer. There's a huge difference between 120 volts and 50,000 volts.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Do you think it would be more cost prohibitive than the forest fires that They have been having?


By far! Plus I don't think the green folks would like the idea of wrapping those wires with several feet of insulation. Clearing the lines of flamibles seems the most practical solution to me.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

farmrbrown said:


> No one has said they don't work.
> What is said is the amount of money is costs underground vs. overhead and then let people make their own decisions.
> It's not necessary to bury the lines to prevent fires, there are methods well known to do this, but again it's up to people to make those decisions.


You’re correct there may be other ways to achieve no forest fires from the electric lines. Could you expound on what methods they might be that wouldn’t impact the visual or environmental landscape?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Californians are willing to pay for it it shouldn’t be a problem.
> Why should someone located in another state have a problem with California spending more money to have a better environment to live in .


Are you sure about that? Anyone asked those Californians what they are willing to pay?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> By far! Plus I don't think the green folks would like the idea of wrapping those wires with several feet of insulation. Clearing the lines of flamibles seems the most practical solution to me.


You seem to have different values than the majority of voters in California. They seem to value a an impacted landscape. 
Luckily we have a system in this country that allows different people to do different thanks.
To them it doesn’t seem practical to allow huge environmental impacts. Apparently they are willing to spend more money to achieve that or perhaps they simply don’t know the cost yet. But they’re going to find out


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Are you sure about that? Anyone asked those Californians what they are willing to pay?


I missed a if. 
Yes in a way someone has asked those Californians about it whenever they voted to change the rules or to put people in place to change the rules they were asked about it


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

California is quick to pass laws, but they cannot supersede the laws of nature. High voltage lines require insulation.... The cheapest most practical insulation is distance.... Forty feet catches it one lower voltages like distribution lines running only 25 to 50 k volts... Higher voltages used for transporting lines are often a hundred feet or more. 


AmericanStand said:


> You seem to have different values than the majority of voters in California. They seem to value a an impacted landscape.
> Luckily we have a system in this country that allows different people to do different thanks.
> To them it doesn’t seem practical to allow huge environmental impacts. Apparently they are willing to spend more money to achieve that or perhaps they simply don’t know the cost yet. But they’re going to find out


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> I missed a if.
> Yes in a way someone has asked those Californians about it whenever they voted to change the rules or to put people in place to change the rules they were asked about it


And how's that working for them?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Well it looks to me like PG&E is sabotaging that because they want to do it the way they’ve always done it.
If I were the people of California I would vote to Dissolve PG&E for failure to do the will of the people.
I would specifically go after those in charge of making the decisions that have led to the fires. 
They need jail time. 
PG and E and it’s administration are failing or purposely not doing their job


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Well it looks to me like PG&E is sabotaging that because they want to do it the way they’ve always done it.
> If I were the people of California I would vote to Dissolve PG&E for failure to do the will of the people.
> I would specifically go after those in charge of making the decisions that have led to the fires.
> They need jail time.
> PG and E and it’s administration are failing or purposely not doing their job


Yep. Pge wants to do it the way it works. Evidenced by the lack of power line caused fires where brush and other flamibles are kept away from power lines. The burrocrats won't let them do that. So the only realistic option is to turn off the power to the high risk areas. Hope yer lizards are happy! I do agree with you on one point, those burrocrats that said no more clean right of ways need to be in jail for causing last years devastating fires.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> I would specifically go after those in charge of making *the decisions that have led to the fires*.





> In September 2016, Governor Brown vetoed SB 1463, a bill in the California legislature which would have required the California Public Utilities Commission to prioritize areas at increased risk from overhead wires in their management of wildfires.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Why won’t underground lines work on long distances ?
> Honestly you sound far more interested in punishing Californians for being environmentally aware then you do in solving the problem.


 Enviromentally mental and ignorant is more like it,.....kill a entire stream of fish to save a frog that died anyway,...cow farts and plans to let water bypass the dams to bring back fish that have not been here for years in the middle of a drought...…..not to mention banning clearing a proper path around wires that burn down millions of acres,...the California fires are the fault of the tree huggers and they need to be sues, not PG&E



AmericanStand said:


> This is a transitional period and PG&E is just going to have to learn how to deal with it.
> 
> Like most transitions there are some problems


 This has existed since California became a state,...it the seasonal santa ana winds that come every year...….why is this just became a problem recently, something must have changed...…...hint, eco nazies hugged the brush they were clearing to prevent this.



Yvonne's hubby said:


> Are you sure about that? Anyone asked those Californians what they are willing to pay?


 Nothing, we already have the highest electric rates in the nation because of a failed socialist state where illegals are treated better than veterans and the leaders are soo corrupt they run guns and award contracts to family members milking the tax payers dry.....how about almost 6 dollar a gallon gas right now. Not willing to pay another penny.

Californians are moving from this state quicker than the gold rush relocations,...….its just now starting to make the news and leaving it to the fruits and nutz….. 



AmericanStand said:


> Well it looks to me like PG&E is sabotaging that because they want to do it the way they’ve always done it.
> If I were the people of California I would vote to Dissolve PG&E for failure to do the will of the people.
> I would specifically go after those in charge of making the decisions that have led to the fires.
> They need jail time.
> PG and E and it’s administration are failing or purposely not doing their job


 Exactly the opinion they want the coolaid to create,.....it needs to be regulated, only the government can be fair and honest and take care of the people safely ,.....that's how they fixed toxic imports and products in California, they labeled everything as causing cancer,...problem solved.

This state is garbage,...….its run by morons because it is full of morons who vote more in,...….the decent moral people are a minority and more are leaving every day...….in the middle of the current power outages at least our governor stepped up and banned travel sized shampoo`s …..


Every single thing you see about this state is the result of the socialist green garbage,...…..let it be warning to others, do not allow one ounce of this garbage in your state or it will end up ruined like this state and everyone with half a brain will move out faster than the media can report.

This state is ground zero for the problems of this country,...its where it festers and breeds.


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

That would be a huge financial undertaking to move all these lines running through the forested areas that nobody wants a clear cut right of way for from above ground to under ground.
https://electrical-engineering-port...stations/underground-power-transmission-lines
https://www.rfwireless-world.com/Te...of-Underground-and-Overhead-transmission.html
https://www.bing.com/images/search?...qpvt=underground+transmission+lines&FORM=IGRE
But hey if they want to do it then they should go for it.

Underground transmission lines are currently are better suited for urban environments.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

No doubt in my mind that it is going to be expensive and difficult to make the transition but that has never got in the way of California


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

American Stand: The power company must put transformers where there are homes----Power lines must lead to those transformers. It is my understanding that the builder pays for the lines from the user to the transformer---Therefore home builders and owners want the transformer close to the home. In Ok my transformer was on a pole about 300 feet from the house. Best I recall,stimate for replacing buried line, 200 amp service, was $3,000. That was about 20 years ago. If the homeowners (or the eco Nazis) will not let the power company clear right of way there will be problems. 

I'm surprised to hear that you know better than any electrical engineer how to prevent wind from knocking down poles and lines, or how to prevent transformers from failure. We'd all be delighted to hear your ideas. 

Oh, I forgot to add that as a result of this extra work our bills went up a hair; the state allowed the company to recoup its losses over time.

Where I lived the REA put its poles as close to the roads as they could, usually about ten to fifteen feet inside the property line, inside cattlemen's fences. Cattlemen did not want trucks in their pastures, so poles grew up with vines, trees grew under the lines. Ice storm knocked us out for about ten days. In came some enormous machines, like big brush hogs and ate up the whole right of way; cattlemen willingly opened gates and helped where needed. The county came in with similar equipment and ripped all the brush and trees out of the roadside right of way. No more problems. I learned to appreciate the skill of men who with a crane and snapper bucket could decapitate a tree and remove the stump.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Oxankle said:


> I'm surprised to hear that you know better than any electrical engineer how to prevent wind from knocking down poles and lines, or how to prevent transformers from failure. We'd all be delighted to hear your ideas.
> 
> Oh, I forgot to add that as a result of this extra work our bills went up a hair; the state allowed the company to recoup its losses over time.
> 
> Where I lived the REA put its poles as close to the roads as they could, usually about ten to fifteen feet inside the property line, inside cattlemen's fences. Cattlemen did not want trucks in their pastures, so poles grew up with vines, trees grew under the lines. Ice storm knocked us out for about ten days. In came some enormous machines, like big brush hogs and ate up the whole right of way; cattlemen willingly opened gates and helped where needed. The county came in with similar equipment and ripped all the brush and trees out of the roadside right of way. No more problems. I learned to appreciate the skill of men who with a crane and snapper bucket could decapitate a tree and remove the stump.


 Lol. In this case it’s simply me agreeing with them. 
Ask any engineer the best way to keep power lines from igniting the brush in California and they will tell you the answer is put them under the ground. 
It’s the accounts that don’t like the idea. And I would assume the customers that are going to have to pay for it may not be real excited about it.


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## ticndig (Sep 7, 2014)

Yea , they need to bury them lines. It should only take about 10 years to complete that small project.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol probably right but if the money is good I bet you would be surprised at how fast it can be done.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

LOL.; of course you can bury lines; the cost might be twenty times the cost of Pole and Line transmission where rock is close to the ground. 
Almost impossible to add new customers except at great cost. People simply cannot afford this. If you live on a hillside with rock under you, and you have to pay the cost of digging out the main line, adding a transformer, then pay for trenching to your house and the cost of buried lines----Not feasible in most of the country. Rates would be so high that people would rebel. 
That of course is why it is not done.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Much of the soil in Ca. is adobe. And adobe soil cracks and expands as it dries and gets wet again. And, then there are the earthquakes and the earth on the 2 sides of the faults often shift a couple of inches here and there. Would that mess up any plans to bury the lines?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Feasible anywhere ,as you point out It’s just not the most economic .
Personally though I think it should be required everywhere


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Feasible anywhere ,as you point out It’s just not the most economic .
Personally though I think it should be required everywhere.
I’ve never understood why the electric company is allowed to destroy the veiw.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

When I first signed up with our electric co-op, it was also the 50th year anniversary of the co-op and like banks giving away toasters with new accounts, that year the electric co-op gave miniature working commemorative kerosene lamps with new accounts instead of the usual weather alert radios they gave new members.

It gave my folks and I a big laugh because for decades before, the standing joke around here was our electric service was so dependable they should give us a free coal oil lamp when we signed up for service. 

The miniature kerosene lamp to new subscribers didn't last long before they switched back to weather radios but enough lamps were given away to give new life to the decades old joke and I actually used that little lamp a few times with the two of my grand parents lamps my father gave me during power outages before my ex wife sneaked that little made in China lamp into her personal stuff as she moved out. At least she didn't lift my antique heirloom lamps. LOL


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## D-BOONE (Feb 9, 2016)

They cant do the buried lines here because of the solid rock 
as for california if the tree hugger dont want brush cut I can just imagine the uproar at digging a ditch through there mountains. might kill an earthworm......


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Correct. Digging a ditch and laying in a well insulated line is going to require a cleared path to do so. That path will also need to be kept clear to keep roots out and to allow repairs to be made. With the shifting soils, mountain and mud slides, and earthquakes repairs will need to be made. Not much different than a pipeline right of way. Not to mention crossing water ways, people digging into the lines by accident, etc.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

AmericanStand said:


> Don’t you live in a state with a bunch of meth heads do you deserve whatever they decide to do to you?


Only if I let them get away with it.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> You’re correct there may be other ways to achieve no forest fires from the electric lines. Could you expound on what methods they might be that wouldn’t impact the visual or environmental landscape?


Fortunately I wasn't around the rest of the day to discuss it, I had some electrical work to do. 

As far as answering the question with the added qualifier about 'visual impact' - that I can't do.
I was referring to making the existing overhead lines less prone to ignite fires without resorting to underground burying. I haven't read the last page of responses yet, but so far it seems that was the only alternative that was mentioned.
When two old ideas are being batted about, I usually look for another way that's better.
They generally aren't hard to find.....

https://krcrtv.com/news/shasta-county/reu-uses-new-method-to-prevent-power-lines-from-sparking-fires 

My SIL lives up near Shasta, but I'm not sure if she's on PG&E or not.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

What can be done at great cost is not even good sense. You think it is easy to bury lines, but when you take into consideration the cost of underground wiring vs overhead wiring, the cost of transformers (you cannot use the simple pole-mounted transformers), the cost of running underground service to homes, the cost of making new connections when new homes are added--all the ADDED cpsts of going underground. the idea is simply fanciful.. 

Such proposals sound like something Pocahontas would put forth. Economic nonsense the middle class would have to swallow. Welfare
recipients would not care---the taxpayer would pay their bills. The rich would not notice. The middle class sap working hard for a living would be left holding the bag.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Redlands Okie said:


> Correct. Digging a ditch and laying in a well insulated line is going to require a cleared path to do so. That path will also need to be kept clear to keep roots out and to allow repairs to be made. With the shifting soils, mountain and mud slides, and earthquakes repairs will need to be made. Not much different than a pipeline right of way. Not to mention crossing water ways, *people digging into the lines by accident, etc.*


only once per customer!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Oxankle said:


> What can be done at great cost is not even good sense. You think it is easy to bury lines, but when you take into consideration the cost of underground wiring vs overhead wiring, the cost of transformers (you cannot use the simple pole-mounted transformers), the cost of running underground service to homes, the cost of making new connections when new homes are added--all the ADDED cpsts of going underground. the idea is simply fanciful..
> 
> Such proposals sound like something Pocahontas would put forth. Economic nonsense the middle class would have to swallow. Welfare
> recipients would not care---the taxpayer would pay their bills. The rich would not notice. The middle class sap working hard for a living would be left holding the bag.


It’s all in the perspective if that was the way it had always been done it would be a acceptable part of the expense of getting on grid electricity.
It cost more no question about it


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

You can't bury transmission lines because there is no way to dissipate the heat. They would probably melt.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

muleskinner2 said:


> You can't bury transmission lines because there is no way to dissipate the heat. They would probably melt.


 Strange. 
Since they have been doing it for years.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Strange.
> Since they have been doing it for years.


He said transmission not distribution. I can't find where transmission lines have ever been buried.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

coolrunnin said:


> He said transmission not distribution. I can't find where transmission lines have ever been buried.


For the unwashed, what is the difference?


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

HDRider said:


> For the unwashed, what is the difference?


Take a shower


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

coolrunnin said:


> Take a shower


You funny


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Pollock Pines Family Says Man Died When Oxygen Tank Lost Power during PG&E Shut-Off

https://fox40.com/2019/10/11/pollock-pines-family-says-man-died-when-oxygen-tank-lost-power-during-pge-shut-off/


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> For the unwashed, what is the difference?


Transmission lines 11,000 volts. Distribution lines 220 volts.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I thought it was more like 750,000 V versus 7000 V


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

You can bury them, it's just expensive.
https://www.xcelenergy.com/staticfiles/xe/Corporate/Corporate PDFs/OverheadVsUnderground_FactSheet.pdf

https://www.datcllc.com/learn/underground-transmission/


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

And *burying high*-*voltage transmission lines* — the kind usually strung from immense steel towers across long distances — *can* cost as much as $5 million per mile, according to PG&E. The utility operates more than 134,000 miles of overhead *power lines*of one *voltage* or another across Northern and Central California.Oct 21, 2017


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

And my talks with electrical engineers they have come to the conclusion that buried powerlines are probably slightly more efficient because they do not have the points that each hanging wire creates in the line in each of those points causes a smaller amount of electricity to be lost. In fact in a quick back of the envelope calculation between engineers they figured it would probably pay for the extra cost of a buried line.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> I thought it was more like 750,000 V versus 7000 V


I got from the internet so it has to be true.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> And my talks with electrical engineers they have come to the conclusion that buried powerlines are probably slightly more efficient because they do not have the points that each hanging wire creates in the line in each of those points causes a smaller amount of electricity to be lost. In fact in a quick back of the envelope calculation between engineers they figured it would probably pay for the extra cost of a buried line.


My electrical engineers drug up on me. I just didn't have enough around the house to keep them busy.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

The posted articles make itn pretty clear WHY the lines are not buried. Up to a month to make repairs would do it for me.

And "Up to 5 million dollars per mile" adds to the pie.
'
And then there is that "about at acre for each juncture box", plus the 35 foot long vault required every 800 or so feet.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It’s not the first time that a better way cost more money.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

In case y'all missed it, there is a better way to deal with it and it doesn't require burying. The only "cost" is temporary inconvenience.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea...estart-device-implicated-in-past-12324764.php

It's been tried and works, it may not be perfect but it's better than shutting down everything or spending billions and years to do something or worse, arguing and doing nothing at all.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> For the unwashed, what is the difference?


Voltage X amperage.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

coolrunnin said:


> He said transmission not distribution. I can't find where transmission lines have ever been buried.
> 
> 
> HDRider said:
> ...


In terms of electrical power (wattage), high-voltage/low-amperage and low-voltage/high-amperage are equal. 

In order to push electricity (or pull, as it were) across long distances, you need high-voltage. When the transmission line hits a point to turn into distribution, it goes through a transformer to turn the high-voltage/low-amperage power into low-voltage/high-amperage (and then divided/breakered down to usable amperage as well).

High-voltage requires a lot of insulation because there is so much potential between ground/neutral and line. The potential is so strong that it can pull the electricity through a lot of things we would normally consider to be suitable insulators. 

One of the best insulators we know of is air, over distance, so high-voltage transmission lines are generally hung above ground. They can be sufficiently insulated below ground, but insulating it from the ground and the neutral line is expensive. Once it’s been stepped down to consumer voltages, the insulation becomes much easier, and underground becomes more viable.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Great explanation!


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Gun Monkey is correct of course, but even at the 120-125 household voltage underground cable is quite expensive. I had direct bury line from pole to house in OK, and I DO NOT want to have to pay for that again. 

When I built my barn there the Airport was replacing all the lines to its runway lights, and the construction firm was selling the old cable for scrap. I bought enough to run lines to my barn, but I ditched and ran conduit the whole way. It was impossible for me to pull cable that far, so I slipped the joints of conduit down the wire and glued them together when they met. A master of the trade told me that unless you could ventilate underground conduit, condensation would fill it with water. I found this to be true. With modern direct bury cable this is not a problem.

My mentor was responsible for maintaining high-powered communications equipment, so his conduits had forced air ventilation. Mine simply sweated until they were full of water.


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

Cause in other states the utilities are allowed to keep the brush and trees cut down under the lines. The environmentalists sued to keep them from cutting the brush down under the power lines in californicate.


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## katie deladie goatherder (Apr 23, 2018)

I live in Florida. Wonderful place most of the time... but, sometimes have big fires during the dry season, and hurricanes of course. I always wonder why, when the utilities are replacing downed lines, they don't just do underground instead of repeatedly replacing and replacing. Seems like it would save tons of money over the long haul. Just a thought.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

katie deladie goatherder said:


> I always wonder why, when the utilities are replacing downed lines, they don't just do underground instead of repeatedly replacing and replacing.


If underground was better they would do it that way.
It just makes more sense and is more cost effective to keep the wires in the open in most scenarios where the voltage is high.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Companies don’t always do what is better in the long haul. Often they simply do what they have been doing. It’s easy to just keep doing what you already do the procedures hand products are already in place. 
The truth is underGround lines are more expensive than above ground lines so they simply weigh the cost of the one time repair against the cost of running new underground line and just keep doing what they have been doing. 
The pressure of quarterly profit reports is intense


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Companies don’t always do what is better in the long haul. Often they simply do what they have been doing. It’s easy to just keep doing what you already do the procedures hand products are already in place.
> The truth is underGround lines are more expensive than above ground lines so they simply weigh the cost of the one time repair against the cost of running new underground line and just keep doing what they have been doing.
> The pressure of quarterly profit reports is intense


We get our power from a coop. No quarterly profit reports to be concerned with this way. Every few years the members get a small dividend check for any profits that may have accumulated since last time. Seems like we picked up a check last year for a whopping $17 and change.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Dang A couple of those and that retirement funds gonna be running over


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Companies don’t always do what is better in the long haul. *Often they simply do what they have been doing. It’s easy to just keep doing what you already do the procedures hand products are already in place.*
> The truth is underGround lines are more expensive than above ground lines so they simply weigh the cost of the one time repair against the cost of running new underground line and just keep doing what they have been doing.
> The pressure of quarterly profit reports is intense


The part I bolded often has come up in various professions over the years. I'v actually heard that reply when I questioned a certain method - "That's just the way we've always done it."
There might be very good reasons, or not, but it was surprising to me that it wasn't something they were even curious about, lol.
But like we discussed earlier, it doesn't have to be either/or.
The diagram showing how they bury the lines in concrete box with air circulation holes got me thinking.
Why not do a variation of that, basically a concrete culvert _on top of the ground?_
The lines would be more accessible for maintenance, still be protected and trees can fall on them all day with little or no effect.
It won't be as cheap as overhead runs but should be cheaper than buried.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You’re right I think it would be an improvement over the current system but it still seems that they would be very subject to being damaged and sabotaged not to mention unsightly 
unsightly is actually my biggest complaint about overhead lines what is the electric company and get the right to ruin the view shed?
We don’t like the idea of one company ruining the water for thousands of miles ,around we even complain about one company ruining the air for thousands of miles around. 
Why should the electric company be allowed to make everything unsightly within its service area?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

katie deladie goatherder said:


> I live in Florida. Wonderful place most of the time... but, sometimes have big fires during the dry season, and hurricanes of course. I always wonder why, when the utilities are replacing downed lines, they don't just do underground instead of repeatedly replacing and replacing. Seems like it would save tons of money over the long haul. Just a thought.


I was working in Florida during Hurricane Wilma. I had my RV parked in the national forest when a fire came through and they ran us out due to the fire. There was TWO spots in West Palm Beach that was probably built when they used campers instead of RVs. Took me three tries and my headlights pointing at my taillights to get it in there but I did it. I sure did hope the fire didn't make it to us after that. No way I could've got it out in time I don't think. I would've been the last one out.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> The part I bolded often has come up in various professions over the years. I'v actually heard that reply when I questioned a certain method - "That's just the way we've always done it."
> There might be very good reasons, or not, but it was surprising to me that it wasn't something they were even curious about, lol.
> But like we discussed earlier, it doesn't have to be either/or.
> The diagram showing how they bury the lines in concrete box with air circulation holes got me thinking.
> ...


What diagram are you talking about? I have never seen electrical buried in concrete unless it's in a duct bank on a large building.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mreynolds said:


> What diagram are you talking about? I have never seen electrical buried in concrete unless it's in a duct bank on a large building.


Sorry, I forgot where I posted it, lol.

https://www.xcelenergy.com/staticfi...rate PDFs/OverheadVsUnderground_FactSheet.pdf


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> Sorry, I forgot where I posted it, lol.
> 
> https://www.xcelenergy.com/staticfiles/xe/Corporate/Corporate PDFs/OverheadVsUnderground_FactSheet.pdf


Ah ok. From your link:

*Crews work on an underground duct bank*

If you'll notice there are several conduits headed into and out of the box. It's to protect from underground digging in a very busy area. Usually they will do this in high traffic areas where they expect digging in the future. They wont do this on a main line. 

I dont know why as I am not an electrical engineer. I just know _*how they have always done it*_ lol.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mreynolds said:


> Ah ok. From your link:
> 
> *Crews work on an underground duct bank*
> 
> ...


Yeah, it was that picture that reminded me about how they ran the underground lines to dissipate the heat and how that can't be the _only way to do it.
_


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> Why not do a variation of that, basically a concrete culvert _on top of the ground?_


Then they couldn't cross roads and you couldn't drive under them.
They would be like a big ugly pipeline blocking access to people's property.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Then they couldn't cross roads and you couldn't drive under them.
> They would be like a big ugly pipeline blocking access to people's property.


Actually, it was a suggested alternative for fire prone rural areas or other problem spots, not an absolute solution to be used everywhere.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> Yeah, it was that picture that reminded me about how they ran the underground lines to dissipate the heat and how that can't be the _only way to do it.
> _


I can't vet this but I one told it was done because it keeps the backhoe out of them and not the heat. I actually asked that question once.

But everyone has their own opinion and I'm sure he has his. Or was taught it anyway.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> Why won’t underground lines work on long distances ?
> Honestly you sound far more interested in punishing Californians for being environmentally aware then you do in solving the problem.


..............................................................................................
...........Because , when high amperage loads occur , buried power lines have almost no way to dissipate the heat that occurs . Heat increases resistance in wire , and when resistance goes up Voltage starts dropping ! Large power lines supported on very tall towers allow the lines to dissipate heat that occurs when extremely high loads are placed upon them ! Those big power lines will start sagging when they get hot so cold air swirling around them will help them to deal with their problems !


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> Actually, it was a suggested alternative for fire prone rural areas or other problem spots


The problems with it still apply everywhere.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The problems with it still apply everywhere.





Bearfootfarm said:


> Then they couldn't cross roads and you couldn't drive under them.
> They would be like a big ugly pipeline blocking access to people's property.


Are there a lot of traffic filled intersections and people trying to pull out of there driveways out there in the California wild lands, not counting those pesky bears driving illegally?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> Are there a lot of traffic filled intersections and people trying to pull out of there driveways out there in *the California wild lands*, not counting those pesky bears driving illegally?


There are still roads, farms and properties that need to be accessed.
They would still need to maintain clear cut right of ways.
You're basically talking about an above ground "pipeline".


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There are still roads, farms and properties that need to be accessed.
> They would still need to maintain clear cut right of ways.
> You're basically talking about an above ground "pipeline".


Yes, thru the most fire prone areas.
Are there other above ground pipelines in true world that are impossible to cross or gain access?
We ARE talking about the same country that built infrastructure across this continent over all kinds of terrain within a few generations, right?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There are still roads, farms and properties that need to be accessed.
> They would still need to maintain clear cut right of ways.
> You're basically talking about an above ground "pipeline".


I grew up with irrigation canals and pipelines. Some above ground, some buried, along with the open canals and ditches to get water to thousands of farms. Hundreds of roads from farm lanes to interstates couple places where the pipelines went under the river even! Every thing went under and over, not a problem.


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## cornbread (Jul 4, 2005)

PG&E CEO Says It Could Impose Blackouts in California for a Decade
Bill Johnson makes the disclosure in a hearing at which California officials blast PG&E’s shutoffs this month

By Katherine Blunt
Updated Oct. 18, 2019 6:59 pm ET
https://www.wsj.com/articles/pg-e-ce...de-11571438206

PG&E Corp. PCG -0.89% ’s chief executive said Friday that it could take as long as 10 years for the company to improve its electric system enough to significantly diminish the need to pull the plug on customers to reduce the risk of sparking fires.

Bill Johnson, who joined the company in May, made the disclosure at a California Public Utilities Commission hearing where the panel’s president, Marybel Batjer, sharply criticized the company’s “inadequate execution” of a shut-off in which it turned off power to large portions of Northern California for more than two days last week.

The commission convened an emergency meeting to examine PG&E’s handling of the massive blackout, which left roughly two million people in the dark and created widespread havoc from the Bay Area to the northern reaches of the state. Several of the company’s top executives were summoned to detail the problems and take questions from regulators.

“I can tell you that you guys failed on so many levels on fairly simple stuff,” Ms. Batjer said.

The agency earlier this week ordered PG&E to address numerous problems with its strategy for such blackouts, known as public safety power shut-offs. It condemned the company’s failure to provide maps and other critical information to residents and local officials ahead of the shut-off. PG&E’s website crashed for two days during the blackout, and its call centers were overwhelmed.

Mr. Johnson on Friday apologized for the hardships caused by the shut-off but defended the company’s decision to implement it, noting that none of its power lines sparked fires, even though strong winds in certain areas caused damage to its system.

“Making the right decision on safety is not the same as executing that decision well,” he said. “PG&E has to be better prepared than it was this time.”

PG&E, which provides gas and electricity to 16 million people, shut off the power to more than 700,000 homes and businesses in anticipation of strong winds that could have increased the chances of its power lines sparking fires. The company’s equipment has sparked 19 major fires during windy periods in 2017 and 2018, mostly because vegetation blew into live wires.

PG&E isn’t the only California utility to deploy shut-offs to mitigate wildfire risks. Edison International’s Southern California Edison and Sempra Energy’s San Diego Gas & Electric also cut power recently in response to windy conditions. But PG&E is the only U.S. utility to have initiated a weather-related blackout on such a large scale.

The decision drew the ire of legislators and local officials who have called on PG&E to act more prudently in enacting future shut-offs. A group of Northern California governments, including Napa and Sonoma counties, on Thursday filed a scathing brief with the utilities commission that berated PG&E for its lack of preparedness.

“The experience of working with PG&E to effect real changes to its de-energization program has been like battling the Hydra,” it read. “This has got to stop.”

For now, the shut-offs will continue as PG&E scrambles to trim trees near power lines and upgrade equipment across its 70,000-square-mile service territory, after a protracted drought this decade turned millions of acres of forest into a tinderbox.
As insurers look to cover their losses from California wildfires, here’s how homeowners like Christy Hubbard are paying the price. Photo/Video: Jake Nicol/The Wall Street Journal

Another major fire tied to PG&E’s equipment would likely drive the company to insolvency. It sought bankruptcy protection in January, citing more than $30 billion in liability costs stemming from the 2017 and 2018 fires, which collectively killed more than 100 people.

At the meeting Friday, commissioners questioned the company’s commitment to its customers and how long it anticipates deploying its shut-off strategy on such a large scale.

Mr. Johnson said the utility is working to limit the scope of future shut-offs by trimming more trees and installing technology to enable the shutdown of smaller, more targeted portions of the grid. But he estimated it will take as long as a decade before its shut-offs will have “ratcheted down significantly.”

“I think they’ll decrease in size and scope every year,” he said. “But at the same time we’re doing this the risk is not static, it’s dynamic and it goes up every year.”

Already, PG&E is behind on several of its most important safety efforts, records show, including this year’s tree-trimming campaign, which is less than 50% complete. It also trails its peers in technology to track winds and isolate the areas where equipment is at highest risk of sparking fires.

Though the company warned of continued shut-offs, it is working to limit their duration.

Michael Lewis, PG&E’s senior vice president of electric operations, said the company, which previously advised customers to prepare for shut-offs lasting as long as five days, will work to restore power within 48 hours after initiating a shut-off.

“We now recognize that five days as a benchmark is unacceptable,” he said.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

AmericanStand said:


> I think we have a pretty clear outline here of exactly who is ready to march to the corporate tune.
> Those of us with clear heads and independent thinking can see other ways to deal with this.


So, the state of California will not allow clear cutting near the power lines and also will not allow rates to be raised enough to bury the lines yet it's PE&G's fault, that's your position?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mnn2501 said:


> So, the state of California will not allow clear cutting near the power lines and also will not allow rates to be raised enough to bury the lines yet it's PE&G's fault, that's your position?


Nope.
The laws requires them to keep it trimmed.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/busines...dge-it-s-improving-tree-trimming-14410747.php


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mnn2501 said:


> So, the state of California will not allow clear cutting near the power lines and also will not allow rates to be raised enough to bury the lines yet it's PE&G's fault, that's your position?


I was not aware that PG&E had been prevented from raising rates. 
Seems like they have bit off more than they can chew. So yes still their fault. 
At some point in the past they should have said we can’t safely expand and stopped.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> We ARE talking about the same country that built infrastructure across this continent over all kinds of terrain within a few generations, right?


We are talking about the state of CA.



farmrbrown said:


> Are there other above ground pipelines in true world that are impossible to cross or gain access?


That really doesn't matter. 
It's still not worth the extra costs and inconveniences to run high voltage electrical transmission lines underground or at ground level.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's still not worth the extra costs and inconveniences to run high voltage electrical transmission lines underground or at ground level.


 Says who ?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Says who ?


That's been answered.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

No it hasn’t 
The question was specifically asked of you.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> We are talking about the state of CA.
> 
> 
> That really doesn't matter.
> It's still not worth the extra costs and inconveniences to run high voltage electrical transmission lines underground or at ground level.





Bearfootfarm said:


> That's been answered.





AmericanStand said:


> No it hasn’t
> The question was specifically asked of you.



I looked back thru to see, because there were a few stats given to do half of the answer, but as I figured, no it was never actually answered "Is it worth the cost?"
You have to know two things to answer that.
1) What is the cost of burying the lines?
2) How much is lost during a wildfire (in money)?

You also have to weed thru the BS that PG&E uses, because they did their own cost analysis to bury lines and like almost every post on this thread it was an "all or nothing" deal. No thought to strategically doing it in the most prone areas and leaving overheads in the urban areas where they aren't causing fires anyway.

But I did last night.
If you start with the transmission lines (26,000 miles of them) at $2 million a mile it comes to $52 billion.
Watch out for the $5 million a mile figure. THAT is what it costs in an URBAN area, rural is $2 million according to PG&E.
The last 2 years of fires resulted in about half that cost in insurance claims and firefighting costs.
2 or 3 more years like that and you break even.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...s-costs-soar-past-last-year-s-records-n946856
You can do the same with the distribution lines which are 86,000 miles, not all of which are in fire prone ares. They know how many miles are susceptible, probably 25% or less.
So yes, there is an answer out there for which one is more cost effective, but you have to ignore the BS to find it.
Naturally, I didn't add in the cost of a human life, because I can't count that high.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> no it was never actually answered "Is it worth the cost?"


I never expected you to agree.



farmrbrown said:


> So yes, there is an answer out there for which one is more cost effective, but *you have to ignore the BS to find it.*


That applies to many things.
I believe empirical evidence I can see instead of the BS some like to peddle.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I never expected you to agree.
> 
> 
> That applies to many things.
> I believe empirical evidence I can see instead of the BS some like to peddle.


LOL.
We both agree on that!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> LOL.
> We both agree on that!


I can't believe what you say without seeing some evidence.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I don't know if this has been brought up before but running power lines underground will not save the big trees in the power line right-of-way. Putting the lines underground will sever the tree roots, causing the trees to weaken and eventually die. So either way the trees must be trimmed or removed to keep them away from power line installations.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Danaus29 said:


> I don't know if this has been brought up before but running power lines underground will not save the big trees in the power line right-of-way. Putting the lines underground will sever the tree roots, causing the trees to weaken and eventually die. So either way the trees must be trimmed or removed to keep them away from power line installations.


lol Once you get away from the idea of overhead powerlines you can also get a way from the idea that they need to run along the road


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

To be honest I’ve always wondered why they didn’t run all powerlines at the back of the property instead of the front


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

It all depends on where the "right of way" lies. The electric company cannot just run lines wherever they please. They have to have a legal access to the property. I don't know of very many people who would allow the electric company access to their entire property when they already have legal access along the front.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> To be honest I’ve always wondered why they didn’t run all powerlines at the back of the property instead of the front


Most folks build close to the road, shorter drive way etc. plus the utility companies need easy access for trucks. Lines along roadways just makes the most sense.


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## NewEnglandMTNcat (Jul 21, 2018)

Back when I was in Connecticut, the problem wasn't fires, but extended power outages after hurricanes, ice storms and the like. People (not environmentalists) but too many regular folk just didn't want the power company to remove trees that affected their own view or yard. 

The power company would come around and ask for permission to trim back trees. I always said YES, Knock yourselves out! 

It sounds like the current problem with current fires in CA is brush, not trees - but the same principle applies. A combination of property owners not wanting to "ruin" their spot and that power company not funding said removal in more remote areas.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Everything's OK now folks - all this dialogue has been for naught. 

The scuttlebutt in California today is the state is considering buying PP&E. They KNOW what's best!

Just what is needed - another liberal government run entity.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Wolf mom said:


> Everything's OK now folks - all this dialogue has been for naught.
> 
> The scuttlebutt in California today is the state is considering buying PP&E. They KNOW what's best!
> 
> Just what is needed - another liberal government run entity.


And you can't sue them. 

I guess California heard is talking here on HT and got the idea.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Wolf mom said:


> Everything's OK now folks - all this dialogue has been for naught.
> 
> The scuttlebutt in California today is the state is considering buying PP&E. They KNOW what's best!
> 
> Just what is needed - another liberal government run entity.


That's been the plan all along, the fire was a convenient happen stance for their cause...….


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Danaus29 said:


> It all depends on where the "right of way" lies. The electric company cannot just run lines wherever they please. They have to have a legal access to the property. I don't know of very many people who would allow the electric company access to their entire property when they already have legal access along the front.


 Exactly,...and people not in the know have no idea the red tape here,...it would take 20 years to map out a plan, costal commission, CARB, search for indian bones,enviroMENTAL groups,etc etc etc etc etc etc would all have to be involved.

I just returned from my property in Kansas, they are putting up wind mills like CRAZY and will be 100% green energy in the next 10 years, they are over half way there,...meanwhile California yammers about it and does nothing , cali this and cali that, a bunch of talkers. You see all the crazy news on cali wanting green, but they do nothing, meanwhile Kansas is about done going 100% green and has some of the cheapest power rates in the nation....

Cali is just another dog and pony show to bilk as money out of everyone as possible and feel good from running their mouths with pie eyed dreams, meanwhile the state is third world status and everyone thinks it is the vouge place to be that lives here in this _____ hole.


California is the reason California is burning, it has nothing to do with power lines that run across the entire nation basically trouble free.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

shawnlee said:


> Exactly,...and people not in the know have no idea the red tape here,...it would take 20 years to map out a plan, costal commission, CARB, search for indian bones,enviroMENTAL groups,etc etc etc etc etc etc would all have to be involved.
> 
> I just returned from my property in Kansas, they are putting up wind mills like CRAZY and will be 100% green energy in the next 10 years, they are over half way there,...meanwhile California yammers about it and does nothing , cali this and cali that, a bunch of talkers. You see all the crazy news on cali wanting green, but they do nothing, meanwhile Kansas is about done going 100% green and has some of the cheapest power rates in the nation....
> 
> ...


Yeah but, how do you really feel about California?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Well, the Governor just signed a bill that outlaws sample size shampoo bottles; meanwhile, the DA in San Francisco has decided that public urination is no longer a crime so citizens thru out can freely eliminate at will. 
Sounds like an enlightened bunch when it comes to socio-environmental issues.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

mreynolds said:


> Yeah but, how do you really feel about California?



A whole lotta people, many great people with mixed diversity,...beautiful weather and scenery, soo much to do from entertainment to the outdoors,.....cali the location is great.


I just returned from 10 days at my property in Kansas and about 8 days at my property in Arizona...….Arizona is beautiful, but way too hot for me most of the year, ply the whole lack of water thing 10% humidity sux.

Between the 3, Kansas was hands down the winner.


I am currently looking at south western Kentucky properties and northern Arkansas properties to get a idea of the people and feel of the area, but Kansas is the winner soo far hands down between Az and cali and Kansas.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> meanwhile, the DA in San Francisco has decided that public urination is no longer a crime so citizens thru out can freely eliminate at will.


While you can urinate wherever you want, this video shows a man being arrested for breaking the rule prohibiting eating at a BART station while waiting for the train to work. Police say they were there looking for a woman who was reportedly drunk and making a scene, but apparently a man eating a breakfast sandwich trumps drunk and disorderly, or urination.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Some of the states ie California, NY, Illinois that have been slowly going nose down over the last generation are now in a full dive.
If there weren't so much humanity at stake it would be an outrageous hilarity. But people have, are and will be suffering as a result of this and were guilty of nothing more than existing in the wrong spot.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Mish said:


> While you can urinate wherever you want, this video shows a man being arrested for breaking the rule prohibiting eating at a BART station while waiting for the train to work. Police say they were there looking for a woman who was reportedly drunk and making a scene, but apparently a man eating a breakfast sandwich trumps drunk and disorderly, or urination.


I saw that on the news tonight and thought it must be some kind of mistake or more to the story.
Arrested for eating a sandwich in public?
I know about CA and have been there but c'mon.
Too bad he didn't know about the new allowance for public urination, it would have been the perfect response for that stupidity.
"Sandwich? Here, you can have it. I need you to hold onto anyway, I've got something else to take care of. Just stand right there and don't move, OK?"


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

To add more to the absurdity, my wife's nephew from Cali informed her that in certain areas, municipalities are requiring permits for generator use.
You may or may not also be required to obtain a building permit, an electrical permit as well as a fire permit before plugging your Honda in or installing a transfer switch.
The gentleman in this article was denied a permit based on noise.
https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2...backup-generators-as-pge-power-shutoffs-loom/


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