# Shooting in Vegas



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

My thoughts are with the injured and those no longer with us.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

This is horriblel


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Now the news media will be filled with non stop talking bobble heads claiming the shooter was a right wing nut, or an antifa, or a muslim, that guns should be banned, 32 story buildings should be banned, Jason Aldean should be banned. Every politician and special interest group will be ready to pounce on a camera or microphone or keyboard and maximize tragedy for agenda. God be with those innocent people who did nothing more than enjoy some country music on a beautiful fall evening. My heart breaks for all of them.
A little patience and we will know the facts of who they are and what twisted reason they had for committing murder.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I was hoping to not make this a political thread.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> Now the news media will be filled with non stop talking bobble heads claiming the shooter was a right wing nut, or an antifa, or a muslim, that guns should be banned, 32 story buildings should be banned, Jason Aldean should be banned. Every politician and special interest group will be ready to pounce on a camera or microphone or keyboard and maximize tragedy for agenda. God be with those innocent people who did nothing more than enjoy some country music on a beautiful fall evening. My heart breaks for all of them.
> A little patience and we will know the facts of who they are and what twisted reason they had for committing murder.


As much as I agree we do not need to go political with this, you are correct. I feel bad that this happened and my thoughts and prayers are with all involved. However, let's remember one thing, another human being did this.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

[email protected]:40 CST , 59 Dead , and 515 injured !
...........NO established link to ISIS or other terrorist group ! , fordy


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

fordy said:


> [email protected]:40 CST , 59 Dead , and 515 injured !
> ...........NO established link to ISIS or other terrorist group ! , fordy


Probably not, but lets wait until all the facts are in before making a claim either way.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Heartbreaking. My thoughts are with the victims and their families.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

This is sad beyond belief. My prayers are with the victims and their families and friends.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

May thre great spirit watch over the wounded and hurry the healing. May he calm the victums family.

Remember even in Amerca you should wear a flack Jacket to a consert. If they don't use guns they use a semi truck.

 Al


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## Amanda_W (Jul 5, 2017)

So Sad...my thoughts are with everyone that has been affected by this terrible terrible event


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Too many nuts are going to learn a big lesson from this.

We could be sitting ducks every day no matter how prepared we are. The only thing I can think of that might help is if people that commit these types of atrocious crimes are treated with utter disdain by our society at all levels. This would require self censorship that I don't think the entertainment or the political community is capable of.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> Too many nuts are going to learn a big lesson from this.
> 
> We could be sitting ducks every day no matter how prepared we are. The only thing I can think of that might help is if people that commit these types of atrocious crimes are treated with utter disdain by our society at all levels. This would require self censorship that I don't think the entertainment or the political community is capable of.


I agree. What they really need to do is keep any and all info about weapons to themselves to include any mods. You only give idiots ideas. What more can you do to these types of people if they live? They sit on death row for years appealing and waste money or they rot in a jail cell and cost more money. What have they been taught. If we treat the mentally ill ones or unstable ones with less respect you will see an increase because then will really be alone and treated even worse and feel compelled to commit these acts. Banning a gun or high cap magazine won't change a dang thing but hurt those willing to follow the laws. Not allowing guns in the hotels won't change a thing because the criminals will continue to break it. These things unfortunately will happen and honestly there is no way to prevent it. Reaction time was slow but still stopped the threat. When from a hotel there isn't much to do.


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## Back2Basix (Dec 24, 2015)

Apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Reports coming in that his father was on FBI's Top 10 Most Wanted List in the 60s & 70s. 

Unfortunately many don't understand that no amount of laws or legislation would stop a nut from doing this


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Back2Basix said:


> Apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Reports coming in that his father was on FBI's Top 10 Most Wanted List in the 60s & 70s.
> 
> Unfortunately many don't understand that no amount of laws or legislation would stop a nut from doing this


I'm not in favor of gun control, but this seems to me to be a case where the type of rifle he had access to increased killed/injured by a factor of 10.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> I'm not in favor of gun control, but this seems to me to be a case where the type of rifle he had access to increased killed/injured by a factor of 10.


In the video I saw, you can hear the gunshots. That sounded like a full auto, which is highly regulated.


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## Blu3duk (Jun 2, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> I'm not in favor of gun control, but this seems to me to be a case where the type of rifle he had access to increased killed/injured by a factor of 10.


Indeed listening to the several videos at different angles it appears the rifle used was full auto.... and ALREADY heavily regulated since the 1934 supreme court Miller decision, coupled with the 1968 gun control act by congress which today has a tax upon ownership of a full auto, specified under class 3..... generally no one paying that tax is gonna use one of those firearms in a crime as horrific as this, although waiting to see what falls out of the brush first, as initial reports are always sensational and seeking ratings for being first with the breaking news [I want facts, not fictional speculation with underlying political agenda..... dragnet was a rerun favorite of mine]

remember though when it is all said and finished, 100 million lawfully possessed firearms and their owners harmed no one today, yesterday and probably wont in the future either! It is always "the nut behind the butt" that folks forget cause the injuries, not the tool used.

William
Idaho


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

MoonRiver said:


> I'm not in favor of gun control, but this seems to me to be a case where the type of rifle he had access to increased killed/injured by a factor of 10.


 Only collectors which are highly background checked are allowed to own full automatics, which these were. He either bought them illegally (ie not from a gun store) or he modified semi-automatics which takes a bit of skill to do (not that someone determined could not learn how). My point it that the guns were illegal and he was a criminal. Criminals do not obey the law. No amount of gun control laws could have prevented this.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

mnn2501 said:


> Only collectors which are highly background checked are allowed to own full automatics, which these were. He either bought them illegally (ie not from a gun store) or he modified semi-automatics which takes a bit of skill to do (not that someone determined could not learn how). My point it that the guns were illegal and he was a criminal. Criminals do not obey the law. No amount of gun control laws could have prevented this.


Wrong. No need to be a collector. All it takes is the right paperwork and money.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Wrong. No need to be a collector. All it takes is the right paperwork and money.


As someone who has gone through the process to own a Class 3 firearm, you do need to provide a reason why you want to purchase such a weapon. I agree that the reason does not have to be in regards to collecting, but I am willing to bet that reason is used most often. The local LEO or sheriff has to sign off on your application and agree with your reason for purchase.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I think I read it was a modified AR-15.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

https://fostechoutdoors.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=15


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Cabin Fever said:


> As someone who has gone through the process to own a Class 3 firearm, you do need to provide a reason why you want to purchase such a weapon. I agree that the reason does not have to be in regards to collecting, but I am willing to bet that reason is used most often. The local LEO or sheriff has to sign off on your application and agree with your reason for purchase.


Agreed but not the only way.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> https://fostechoutdoors.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=15


Either that, or a rubber band.


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## Back2Basix (Dec 24, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> I think I read it was a modified AR-15.


That is also what i read, modified .223 &.308 AR15 & AR10 machined for full auto


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

It was modified AR 15s, which is also illegal. 
Not a single law stops bad people intent on doing harm. Laws pertaining to murder, assault, rape, etc are based and created on the rational thinking of the lawmaker, which is not possessed by those who break them.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

GTX63 said:


> It was modified AR 15s, which is also illegal.
> Not a single law stops bad people intent on doing harm. Laws pertaining to murder, assault, rape, etc are based and created on the rational thinking of the lawmaker, which is not possessed by those who break them.


I agree that laws won't stop these type of events, but somehow they have to be stopped while still protecting our rights.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Just how do you suggest that be done. Maybe put them in prison for minor crimes and put the fear of god in them for getting arrested.

Home less people in this country have it way harder than some one put in the country clubs called prisons in this country.
In prison they have it easier than a lot of working people struggling to make ends meet.

So you can't scare then straight, so what you suggest?

 Al


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> *I'm not in favor of gun control*, but this seems to me to be a case where the type of rifle he had access to increased killed/injured by a factor of 10.


You mean his illegally modified weapons?
I'm almost certain those guns weren't legal.

The LA Sheriff said they were converted AR-15's

Once you follow your first clause with "but", it becomes false.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> I agree that laws won't stop these type of events, but somehow they have to be stopped while still protecting our rights.


Why say one thing and then contradict yourself in the next breath?
Let's make it illegal to shoot people at concerts and see if that helps.
Or why not just outlaw concerts all together, since this event couldn't have happened had it not gone on.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

alleyyooper said:


> Just how do you suggest that be done. Maybe put them in prison for minor crimes and put the fear of god in them for getting arrested.
> 
> Home less people in this country have it way harder than some one put in the country clubs called prisons in this country.
> In prison they have it easier than a lot of working people struggling to make ends meet.
> ...


Shaming.

In the 50's, 60's, 70's and even into the 80's, our society had specific norms we were expected to adhere to. Things that we were taught were bad, such as having a baby out of wedlock or using drugs, now have no stigma attached to them. Everyone can do whatever they think is right - because good and bad are subjective.

There are people that have spent the last 50 years breaking down our culture. Video games glorify killing and killers. Movies display violent sex as if it is normal. We feed dangerous drugs to children and turn them into killing machines. Schools have turned their back on teaching morality.

The pillars of our communities - churches, schools, local government, civic organizations, etc have been undermined and failed us. What do they stand for? The criminal justice system has failed us and especially failed our juvenile population. Specific populations within our cities are run by criminal enterprises with city governments turning a blind eye.

Most of us here grew up when we worried about what our teacher might tell our parents, what the shopkeeper would say if we acted up in his store, what the neighbor would say if they saw us misbehaving, or what our parents would do if we got into trouble. Now everyone keeps quiet, mainly because of the threat of law suits.

We joined the boy scouts or the girl scouts, we played high school sports, we joined the band, we held car washes to raise money, we went to dances in the school gym and we certainly didn't do any dirty dancing.

It's not that we need to go back in time, but we do need a strong set of values that we as a society agree to. A set of values that makes it clear what is right and what is wrong.

It will take decades and be terribly hard work, but when we look at the alternative, we see the continued breakdown of our culture.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You mean his illegally modified weapons?
> I'm almost certain those guns weren't legal.
> 
> The LA Sheriff said they were converted AR-15's
> ...


You know exactly what I meant. We have existing laws and this guy broke the law. Additional gun laws likely would have had no effect on this shooting. 

So if laws won't stop shootings, what will? I propose a return to a shared, common morality.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> I propose a return to a shared, common morality.


There has never been any such thing.
People have been killing people ever since there were more than two of them on the planet.
Nothing will ever change that.


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## Koda (Jun 10, 2014)

> Shaming.
> 
> In the 50's, 60's, 70's and even into the 80's, our society had specific norms we were expected to adhere to. Things that we were taught were bad, such as having a baby out of wedlock or using drugs, now have no stigma attached to them. Everyone can do whatever they think is right - because good and bad are subjective.
> 
> ...


I don't really agree with this. As someone who probably didn't grow up in "your time"... I feel like there's a lot of backwards thinking to this. When babies weren't supposed to be being had out of wedlock... do you really think women/girls weren't still getting pregnant? People were still having sex, they just hid it better. It wasn't talked about and bragged about because society deemed it wrong. But if you think there weren't attempted abortions or pregnancies then I think there's some wool over your eyes.

Last I checked, the newer generation isn't the only folks who used drugs. Infact, drugs were invented before most of the people in "my time" were even BORN. So somebody was doing those drugs before we came around.

Video games don't make people kill just like music doesn't make people kill. Movies don't make people go out to make someone have violent sex with them. What drugs are we feeding children that directly make them killing machines?? And the morality you speak of schools teaching... do you mean religion? Because you can CHOOSE to send your child to religious school. As someone who has been to both public school and private religious schools, I can tell you that the general consensus is that the private school kids are WORSE. More drugs, more sex. Sex on school grounds DURING school. My public schools were always much more relaxed and less substances and sex.

Where there are humans, there is room for error. Where there are humans, there is room for bad behavior, bad thoughts, etc. Each individual person makes the choice to have sex, commit crimes, act violent, etc.

I didn't grow up in "your time" but I still cared about what my teachers would say to my parents. I say please and thank you. I hold open doors for strangers. I great people kindly when I enter establishments. I give general respect to everyone I meet unless they give me reason otherwise. I was never in girl scouts (there's files kept on counselors that the boy scouts KNOWS have committed various crimes against children.....). I hardly was ever in sports (LOTS of sex going on there. Fighting. Guys passing around sex tapes of girls they had been with at football camp...). Wasn't in band (the band kids at the school were some of the MOST sexual. Soooo many stories). I did go to some school dances and I can't say I never danced on the dirty side at them. Didn't have sex though. Dancing does not equal sex. Nor does it imply or guarantee sex. Sometimes dancing is dancing. While not all of the dancing at school may have been entirely appropriate... no one told us no so we just had fun. I'm not married. I have a child. Out of wedlock and all that. I intend to marry the person I'm with though. We just aren't in a rush to get a piece of paper. We'll do it when we can make it special. We've been together longer than a number of people have been together. We're happy and committed.

I guess my point is that there is no set of rules or magic way to make people fall in line and be good little boys and girls. I have lived about the exact opposite of what you view to be a better upbringing. I've never been in trouble with the law, never even been pulled over while driving. I am a law abiding citizen that has so want or intent to ever commit violence on another human being. I value life and I think it's great if everyone would just be happy. But that's not the world or life. Each person is to be judged individually. You aren't a good person because you play sports and you aren't a bad person because you like video games. If one human is so susceptible to content around them that they must go DO IT. Even when they KNOW it's wrong, then obviously something is wrong with that specific person and they probably need help. How many people did they go past in life without anyone reaching out? There's a lot more to it. A gun can't commit violence unless someone CHOOSES to use it for that purpose. A bunch of people right now own guns and they don't shoot anything. The guns used in this horrible crime were illegal to begin with so this isn't even a debate or question on gun laws. The only way this specifically could've been stopped is if guns didn't exist at all. That's not a reality. This person chose crime when they got the guns, potentially chose FURTHER crime if they personally modded them, then chose the ULTIMATE crime when they CHOSE to shoot out at a crowd of innocent people.

That being said, I do agree that extra curricular activities can help keep people of ALL ages leading a straighter life because they have a more positive outlet for that time. But it doesn't mean an artist or sports star or clarinet player can't be a bad person who maybe commits crime. Individual judgement is key.

I hope the people gone did not suffer. I hope the people suffering find peace and solace. I hope everyone effected by this can feel safe and happiness again.


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## Koda (Jun 10, 2014)

I'd also like to point out that there's people who felt repressed and in turn bad things can stem from that. There's people who have done bad things because of growing up oppressed and shamed. Crime has always existed. It's also a lot easier to keep track of all these crimes when there's devices everywhere recorded and taking pictures and instantly posting on media outlets globally. People used to have a hard time getting news from STATES over. Just because people were shamed from talking about things or doing them publicly doesn't mean nothing happened away from prying eyes.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Koda said:


> I don't really agree with this. As someone who probably didn't grow up in "your time"... I feel like there's a lot of backwards thinking to this. When babies weren't supposed to be being had out of wedlock... do you really think women/girls weren't still getting pregnant? People were still having sex, they just hid it better. It wasn't talked about and bragged about because society deemed it wrong. But if you think there weren't attempted abortions or pregnancies then I think there's some wool over your eyes.


You have no facts to back up your opinions.

Look up the out of wedlock birth rates over the last 50 years. Look up the rate of drug use of the last 50 years. Look up the mass shootings over the last 50 years.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There has never been any such thing.
> People have been killing people ever since there were more than two of them on the planet.
> Nothing will ever change that.


Then why do we have more mass shootings now than we did 40 or 50 years ago?

1950s: 1
1960s: 6
1970s: 13
1980s: 32
1990s: 42
2000s: 28 (http://www.heraldnet.com/news/the-history-of-mass-shootings-in-the-u-s/)
2010s: at least 35


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## Koda (Jun 10, 2014)

You have no facts backing your _opinions_ either. You have no facts showing that out of wedlock births are creating mass shootings. There's no proof that video games make people kill. There's no proof that being a boy scout makes you good. There's also a larger population now than there was in the 1950's and it's only been growing ever since. The amount of mass shootings decreased in the 2000's to even less than in the 80's. Why? A number of the same population was still alive. All the same people who either did or didn't play sports, did or didn't dance, did or didn't play video games. My POINT is that there are many contributing factors but the ones you specifically brought up don't MAKE a person good or bad. Nor do they make someone commit a mass shooting. Agencies that have a lot more data than that still don't have the "answer". The FBI/CIA/etc aren't sending out statements that if everyone just lived like they did in the 1950's everything would be better.

If you would've posted research that states babies out of wedlock, video game players, dancers, etc exclusively commit mass shootings then maybe your stated opinions wouldn't have gotten my opinionated response.

Here is a quote from the article you posted.


> In general, overall crime rates, including homicides, have declined in recent years because of a variety of factors.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Laws are like the locks on your house, they keep honest folks honest and give us something to feel good about.
As far as the degradation of society, one only has to read a little history from past nations/civilizations to see a pattern and I don't know of any examples where it reversed itself.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> You have no facts to back up your opinions.


I didn't see the links for yours either.



MoonRiver said:


> Then *why* do we have more mass shootings now than we did 40 or 50 years ago?


Maybe it's because we have so many more people, along with a much larger illegal immigrant population.

We have much more restrictive gun laws now too, so evidently more restrictive laws don't help.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> Then why do we have more mass shootings now than we did 40 or 50 years ago?
> 
> 1950s: 1
> 1960s: 6
> ...


A mass shooting is defined by the FBI as 3 or more killed in a public place. Have you considered maybe in the 50-80s the FBI did not have that definition yet. And on top of all that with the exception of 2 maybe 3 including Las Vegas all the large numbered mass shootings have taken place in gun free zones. Gabby Giffords shooting and the Austin shooting were the only 2 that were not a gun free zone. We see how well gun free zones work now don't we.


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## ijon1 (Feb 27, 2014)

I think killers are born, and not influenced by anything in their life. A person in their right mind would never think to do this.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol listening to people debate gun control in these killings is like a debate on the right mop to use in Houston. 
So if we denied all access to guns a mass killer would need to spend 15 minutes and 15 bucks at the local hardware store to build a cannon. 

I'm not sure that would have improved the situation.


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## Earnest T. Bass (Jun 28, 2017)

Yes it's impossible for a sane person to comprehend what would compel a person to commit this heinous act. This guy, a supposed millionaire with two planes a nice home in a retirement community a high roller gambler, just snaps? I hope the truth will be reveled in the coming days but I have my doubts.The whole thing just doesn't make sense.Why break out two windows? He had thousands of innocent victims from one window. Now it's being reported two Bump-stocks were found in the hotel room. I'm no expert but the sounds of the gunfire from eye witnesses sounded full auto to me. The world just gets crazier and crazier everyday. Hundreds of people's lives ruined forever,very sad.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/l...stock-attached-to-two-weapons/article/2636350


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Ok he was a Pilot it would have been much easier to rent a Plane and crash it into the crowd. Why set up the shooting?

big rockpile


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

There have been claims that he was a fall guy, a patsy,I hate to say it but it actually makes some sense.


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## Back2Basix (Dec 24, 2015)

I find it appalling that the left started to politicize the event just hours after it happened. At what point will the wedge they've driven into our society be deep enough for them??


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Back2Basix said:


> I find it appalling that the left started to politicize the event just hours after it happened. At what point will the wedge they've driven into our society be deep enough for them??


When they get their revolution there will be far more than 59, then what?


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

A patsy for whom? ISIS claims responsibility for a lot it does not do and it tried to claim this but no one believed it. 

This shooting is shocking and horrifying but not surprising. Mass shootings as they are called are just part of American life. Just a fact. Mass shootings do occur in many other countries but the US has the most. Of course the figures can be juggled according to the definition of mass shooting - minimum 3 dead or 4 dead, strangers or not, changes the numbers and can make things look better. The difference over the past 10 years is the number of deaths and injuries. The 2016 Orlando attack was - up until Las Vegas - the deadliest shooting in U.S. history (49 killed), the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre (32 killed), and the 2012 Sandy Hook shooting (27 killed). This is obviously because of the weapons that are used that make it easier since you have much more and faster fire power. Also the new perpetrators learn from those who came before and plan better and more unexpected attacks.

Could increased gun control stop attacks or decrease the death toll? Yes. It has in other countries. I personally don't buy into the mentally unstable excuse for all mass shooters. Some are deranged, some are just doing something that they want to do. It will always be unpredictable. And the death toll will continue to rise and shock. But it shocks less each time.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

emdeengee said:


> A patsy for whom? ISIS claims responsibility for a lot it does not do and it tried to claim this but no one believed it.
> 
> .


This actually isn't true. ISIS doesn't often claim responsibility erroneously and it has experts puzzled.

"Historically, ISIS has not been arbitrary in the attacks it claims have been carried out by its supporters. Experts who track the group closely say that when it comes to attacks in the West, if ISIS is claiming responsibility, there typically was some kind of connection between the perpetrator and the group."

http://thehill.com/policy/national-...rts-puzzled-by-isis-claim-in-las-vegas-attack

I'm curious about Paddock's connection to the Philippines.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

emdeengee said:


> A patsy for whom? ISIS claims responsibility for a lot it does not do and it tried to claim this but no one believed it.
> 
> This shooting is shocking and horrifying but not surprising. Mass shootings as they are called are just part of American life. Just a fact. Mass shootings do occur in many other countries but the US has the most. Of course the figures can be juggled according to the definition of mass shooting - minimum 3 dead or 4 dead, strangers or not, changes the numbers and can make things look better. The difference over the past 10 years is the number of deaths and injuries. The 2016 Orlando attack was - up until Las Vegas - the deadliest shooting in U.S. history (49 killed), the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre (32 killed), and the 2012 Sandy Hook shooting (27 killed). This is obviously because of the weapons that are used that make it easier since you have much more and faster fire power. Also the new perpetrators learn from those who came before and plan better and more unexpected attacks.
> 
> *Could increased gun control stop attacks or decrease the death toll? Yes. It has in other countries.* I personally don't buy into the mentally unstable excuse for all mass shooters. Some are deranged, some are just doing something that they want to do. It will always be unpredictable. And the death toll will continue to rise and shock. But it shocks less each time.


then why does Chicago have so many murders with guns? Because criminals don't care about laws! Please inform me how a 5.56 has so much fire power. The man had fire SUPERIORITY and vantage, nothing more. Do you really think by removing AR style rifles will change anything? It will make it worse. Think about it this way, do you want to be more or less armed than your attacker? Criminals do not care about laws, such as in New York, do you really believe someone about to commit multiple felonies and murders cares if they have more than 7 rounds in the magazine? Gun laws didn't prevent the shooting in San Bernadino. How about the north Hollywood shootout where cops raided a gun store for weapons that had a better fire rate? What if they would have had them already. Banning something has never fixed anything. Prohibition created some of the greatest criminals ever. So please explain how more regulation will help when criminals don't follow the laws we have already? Someone could have just as easily done that with a lever gun or pump rifle or even a bolt action.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Lisa in WA said:


> This actually isn't true. ISIS doesn't often claim responsibility erroneously and it has experts puzzled.
> 
> "Historically, ISIS has not been arbitrary in the attacks it claims have been carried out by its supporters. Experts who track the group closely say that when it comes to attacks in the West, if ISIS is claiming responsibility, there typically was some kind of connection between the perpetrator and the group."
> 
> ...


Phillip ones are a known training area for terror groups.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Phillip ones are a known training area for terror groups.


Yes and he wired 100k there last week and his girlfriend (?) is From the Philippines and is there now.

Seems more than coincidenta.


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## Back2Basix (Dec 24, 2015)

emdeengee said:


> Could increased gun control stop attacks or decrease the death toll? Yes


How?? There are already federal laws in place for the weapons he had/manufactured/customized but that didn't stop him from breaking them.

Hell, marijuana is classified as a schedule 1 narcotic but that doesn't stop people from growing & smoking it.

DUI is not legal but people still so it

Murder, robbery, fraud, speeding, j-walking...... There are laws & regulations against all of these but they are committed every single day.

All of us here have broken multiple laws in the course of a day. I drove 30 in a 25mph zone on my way back to the office, i knowingly broke the law and i could give 2 shats about it. Laws and more regulations do nothing

People who want to break the law will do so regardless of the repercussions


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## Back2Basix (Dec 24, 2015)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> When they get their revolution there will be far more than 59, then what?


They want their revolution as soon as they've confiscated all of our supposed "assault weapons". You know we better start some regulation against those assault weapon bows, no reason to have a 5 arrow quiver when you can only shoot 1 arrow at a time.

But then again I'd love to take on some of these millennial snowflakes hand-to-hand (though i might die of laughter as they run into battle with their rainbow flags, try to slap everyone, then cry because they dropped their iPhone)


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Don't be fooled. The goal of "Gun control" is not to reduce the number or severity of mass shootings. The goal is to remove the weapons from the law abiding majority of Americans who someday may be faced with the need to take back their government.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

[*QUOTE="Lisa in WA, post: 7940696, member: 12414"]This actually isn't true. ISIS doesn't often claim responsibility erroneously and it has experts puzzled.

"Historically, ISIS has not been arbitrary in the attacks it claims have been carried out by its supporters. Experts who track the group closely say that when it comes to attacks in the West, if ISIS is claiming responsibility, there typically was some kind of connection between the perpetrator and the group."*

Yes, ISIS has been reliable in the past only bragging about their real successes but that appears to be changing. They claimed credit for a June attack that killed 37 people at a casino in Manila, Philippines, which turned out to be a botched robbery and also claimed that they had planted bombs on a British Airways plane that was evacuated. No bombs and the plane was evacuated for an unrelated incident.

If Paddock is a terrorist and or supporter of terrorism then he is a very successful one as he has stayed completely under the radar.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Bet there is a lot of scrambling to make sure Fast and Furious isn't involved.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Cabin Fever said:


> Don't be fooled. The goal of "Gun control" is not to reduce the number or severity of mass shootings. The goal is to remove the weapons from the law abiding majority of Americans who someday may be faced with the need to take back their government.


Honestly we need to take our government back, patriots do, why not hit the reset button on politics, that's the main reason everyone is so pissed about trump, he's not a typical politician he says what needs to be said in ways that are not the nicest but that's what is needed right now, no more being afraid of hurting johnny's little feelings.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

emdeengee said:


> This is obviously because of the weapons that are used that make it easier since *you have much more and faster fire power*.


That's simply false.
These types of guns have been around for more than 50 years.
A pump shotgun would kill or wound more in a crowed room such as the first examples you gave, and a gallon of gas could have killed them all.



emdeengee said:


> Could increased gun control stop attacks or decrease the death toll? Yes. It has in other countries.


Gun laws haven't stopped any crimes.
Killers will find a way.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Lisa in WA said:


> I'm curious about Paddock's connection to the Philippines.


That's supposedly through his "girlfriend" who should be back in the US tomorrow


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

This is what I have been expecting:


> Stephen Paddock, who killed at least 58 people and wounded hundreds more in Las Vegas on Sunday with high-powered rifles, was prescribed an *anti-anxiety drug* in June that *can lead to aggressive behavior*, the Las Vegas Review-Journal has learned.


[/URL]https://www.reviewjournal.com/local...shooter-prescribed-anti-anxiety-drug-in-june/


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> This is what I have been expecting:


I'd be curious as to their source for that.
I'd also point out that the fact he had a prescription in June isn't exactly proof he was still taking anything. If he took them as directed he ran out weeks ago.

From your source:


> Dr. Michael First, a clinical psychiatry professor at Columbia University and expert on benzodiazepines, said the Finnish study speaks for itself. But he also told the Review-Journal on Tuesday that he believes the drugs would be more likely to fuel impulsive aggression than premeditated behavior.


Diazepam is also prescribed for muscle spasms.
If he was given 10mg pills and told to take one per day he was on a very low dose:
https://www.drugs.com/diazepam.html


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I'd be curious as to their source for that.
> I'd also point out that the fact he had a prescription in June isn't exactly proof he was still taking anything. If he took them as directed he ran out weeks ago.
> 
> From your source:
> ...


Most recent mass killings seem to have 1 of 2 things in common:

Radical Islam
Psychotropic Drugs


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Some mass murderers may be using drugs, some may be religious. But, all use the internet. The greatest source ever of completely unhinged, hate-filled diatribes easily found for free. Just look at any comment section after any news article. Even here, at HT. Even in this thread, where people try to blame whatever it is *they* don't like, and some say(out of the blue) stuff that clearly implies their own desire for murder and/or mayhem such as "But then again I'd love to take on some of these millennial snowflakes hand-to-hand (though i might die of laughter as they run into battle with their rainbow flags, try to slap everyone, then cry because they dropped their iPhone)"

We don't want to blame the internet, because we, ourselves, are hooked on the internet. But, there's always been drugs and religion. If they caused mass shootings, then why just relatively recently?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> This is what I have been expecting:[/URL]https://www.reviewjournal.com/local...shooter-prescribed-anti-anxiety-drug-in-june/


Boy I hate that crap! A rifle is a rifle is a rifle. What is a high power rifle? A center fire? A magnum? A semi auto? What? It’s a term some idiot coined, no firearm manufacturer uses it and markets their product as a high power rifle so please, can someone explain why people continue to use the term? A 50cal muzzle loader packs more punch than a 5.56, a 30-30 lever gun has more energy, they aren’t considered a high power rifle so why is an AR15?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Just read an article that states the weapons were “Tripod” mounted. They had bipods attached to them. They werent military rifles they were AR15s. I really wish the media could get their facts straight instead of misleading the public.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Just read an article that states the weapons were “Tripod” mounted. They had bipods attached to them. They werent military rifles they were AR15s. I really wish the media could get their facts straight instead of misleading the public.


You would think so. Most media outlets have their own in-house experts to comment on a variety of issues. For instance, CBS has Dr. John LaPook to talk about medical related issues, and Captain Sully to comment on air traffic related issues, Ret. General Somebody to talk about military issues, etc. They need an expert to talk about firearms-related issues.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Boy I hate that crap! A rifle is a rifle is a rifle. What is a high power rifle? A center fire? A magnum? A semi auto? What? It’s a term some idiot coined, no firearm manufacturer uses it and markets their product as a high power rifle so please, can someone explain why people continue to use the term? A 50cal muzzle loader packs more punch than a 5.56, a 30-30 lever gun has more energy, they aren’t considered a high power rifle so why is an AR15?


Cause AR-15's look scary to liberals and also bad news sells (meaning it brings income to news organizations)


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Cabin Fever said:


> They need an expert to talk about firearms-related issues.


 If they did it would kill their "shock value" and they can't have that.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Lots of attention being put on the guns. The disturbing thing to me is the fact that we have crazy killers walking around, willing to randomly murder unknown, innocent civilians with no concept of right & wrong, and no regard for human life.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Fishindude said:


> Lots of attention being put on the guns. The disturbing thing to me is the fact that we have crazy killers walking around, willing to randomly murder unknown, innocent civilians with no concept of right & wrong, and no regard for human life.


Because in the eyes of the left the person didn’t commit the crime, the guns did. There’s already people who have said they hope it was “trumptards” that were killed. This is how jacked up WE have allowed our society to become. Proves God is a man because no mother would ever let her children get this out of control! I’m not speaking ill of God either.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Fishindude said:


> Lots of attention being put on the guns. The disturbing thing to me is the fact that we have crazy killers walking around, willing to randomly murder unknown, innocent civilians with no concept of right & wrong, and no regard for human life.


This, compounded with the fact that you are assuredly guilty of some kind of -ism if you raise this issue!


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## Koda (Jun 10, 2014)

It's kind of annoying that there's so many blanket statements going around. Not every millennial is a snowflake and I've met plenty of "older" people who think they're snowflakes. It's not exclusive to any single generation. Not every liberal person thinks that guns somehow magically fire and kill people. A person has to be pulling the trigger or else the gun remains inanimate and unable to do anything at all. I do agree that it is specifically something that a number of the left group seems to think. Why don't people blame the fire when an arsonist lights up a building? Why don't people blame the bomb when someone sets one of those? There's plenty of different types of crimes but someone being shot somehow doesn't just focus on the fact that a singular human being chose to pull the trigger on someone. If you're reading right wing news then they're probably all over the people calling for stricter gun laws. If you're a left wing news reader then they're probably talking about how a bunch of right wing people have super huge gun collections and how gun sales will skyrocket. Then of course there's people who just flock to what the flavor of the month celebrity is saying, so if the celebs are calling for stricter gun laws... some people might be saying YEAH! It's politics. Of course each side is going to say something to further separate the groups. That's not news. Especially not during this election/presidency. It's kind of a shame that this thread has been more about calling people out and segregating instead of sharing the peace and love for a part of OUR nation that is devastated and in mourning. The shooter is proof that there's enough hate out there. Can we not just join together in this moment of national tragedy and wish everyone the best? Even the OP made this post to wish them the best and specifically didn't want it to go political. Easily another thread can be made for left and right to go back and forth instead of derailing a thread meant for positive thoughts and wishes for those fellow people that are suffering. I feel mournful for those who have past away and been injured. Why don't we talk about all the local people who risked their lives to save strangers? People were driving strangers in their own vehicles to the local hospitals because emergency response teams weren't able to handle it. I bet they weren't stopping to ask what political group they are in or their views on gun laws. They helped a fellow human and risked their own safety to save lives. For people who have a lot of doubt in fellow man... I say this shows a shining light in the capability of others to do something good and of real moral value.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Back2Basix said:


> All of us here have broken multiple laws in the course of a day. I drove 30 in a 25mph zone on my way back to the office, i knowingly broke the law and i could give 2 shats about it. Laws and more regulations do nothing
> 
> People who want to break the law will do so regardless of the repercussions



And There Is The Problem.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Blanket statements abound.

I blame the person who did the act.
I do want gun control because guns make it easier for that person to commit mass murder.

We control a lot of things that allow the person to commit mass murder. Military weapons. Yes the constitution gave us the right to own arms. That was in the days of single shot guns and bayonets. The world has changed. How hypocritical is it that we want to limit what weapons other countries can own but not our own citizens.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

So many are calling it the first mass murder with a machine gun. 
I guess those thompson a the gangsters used in the 1930s don't count ?


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## Back2Basix (Dec 24, 2015)

Koda said:


> It's kind of annoying that there's so many blanket statements going around. Not every millennial is a snowflake and I've met plenty of "older" people who think they're snowflakes. It's not exclusive to any single generation


Hey I've got grounds, I'm a 29yr old white male who's so far from their generational ideologies it's not even comparable. I get it left & right and I'll admit it's a high proportion of my generation that falls into that category. 

Look at what's being indoctrinated at these liberal colleges and universities. Every week youre hearing about conservative students getting harassed, assaulted, and events shut down by liberal students and professors. Liberals are pushing hate and suppressing free speech, calling anyone Republican a white supremacist, racist, fascist, etc..... Instead of the media calling them violent riots, they proclaim they are just "protesting" Last i checked, protest doesn't include assault, looting, damaging of private property, and the suppression of speech and assembly.

Can you imagine the outrage if the tables were turned 4-8yrs ago. Celebrities, political figures, media calling for the death of a black president?!?!? It would have been anarchy but now they label themselves "true Americans" for calling out the "truth"

It's sick and disgusting.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> Blanket statements abound.
> 
> I blame the person who did the act.
> I do want gun control because guns make it easier for that person to commit mass murder.
> ...


 I Ummm no that was in the days when the best weapons were in private hands. 
Things like cannons.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> I Ummm no that was in the days when the best weapons were in private hands.
> Things like cannons.


Single shot.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

I am sitting here wondering why so much emphasis is placed on this horrific tragedy, when on average, 63 people are murdered EVERY MONTH in Chicago alone.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Cabin Fever said:


> I am sitting here wondering why so much emphasis is placed on this horrific tragedy, when on average, 63 people are murdered EVERY MONTH in Chicago alone.


Because if you venture into that part of Chicago you know you are in danger of being shot.


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## Koda (Jun 10, 2014)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/data/ct-shooting-victims-map-charts-htmlstory.html



> Because if you venture into that part of Chicago you know you are in danger of being shot.


What PART of Chicago are you referring to exactly? Have you spent any time there? I have personally lived there. It sounds as if you're ASSUMING that all gunshots have taken place in "bad" neighborhoods. People are being shot all over the Chicagoland area. Plenty of people walk by the red light districts without anything happening. And people get shot while being no where near those areas. For someone going after people for their opinions.... your _opinions_ sound pretty loaded.


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## pairofthrees (Apr 28, 2016)

Cabin Fever said:


> I am sitting here wondering why so much emphasis is placed on this horrific tragedy, when on average, 63 people are murdered EVERY MONTH in Chicago alone.


Because those 63 murders a month are less than 5% white people. Poor black and hispanic people shooting and killing each other doesn't really move the meter for media coverage. 

I regularly check out this site just to keep me reminded why I want to get further away from here


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Blanket statements abound.
> 
> I blame the person who did the act.
> I do want gun control because guns make it easier for that person to commit mass murder.
> ...


Every weapon is a military weapon, muskets, lever guns, semi auto rifles, full autos and every type of pistol because they have all been used by the .....you guessed it, the military. Guns are a tool, nothing more, a truck could have driven through a crowd and killed he same number. Timothy mcveigh killed 158 with fertilizer and fuel. You want to limit the law abiding citizens from defending themselves from the criminals who don’t care about laws, case in point.....Chicago. We should be as armed or more than criminals and quite honestly the government because we have the right to alter or abolish it when it becomes tyrannical. When the constitution was written has zero bearing on what I can or can’t have, if that were the case the Bible would be completely invalid!


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

*


MoonRiver said:



Most recent mass killings seem to have 1 of 2 things in common:

Click to expand...

*


MoonRiver said:


> *Radical Islam*
> *Psychotropic Drugs*




one of three things - the third being angry white male.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

*


Texaspredatorhu said:



then why does Chicago have so many murders with guns? Because criminals don't care about laws!

Click to expand...

*


Texaspredatorhu said:


> No, criminals do not care about laws but most of the perpetrators of mass shootings are not known to be or described as criminals until after they commit their spree. And then these men all seem to be excused as insane, crazy or mentally unstable. Normal ordinary criminals are not excused as being inssane, crazy or mentally unstable.
> 
> Paddock seemed like the perfect gun owner. Nothing known against him. He had over 40 guns apparently -could afford it - and is classed as a law abiding citizen and gun collector. Paddock also seems like the perfect mass shooter.
> 
> It is obvious that no mass shooting can be predicted but stricter laws as to what can be owned and how many might wave some warning flags when someone is stocking up. Mass shootings occur in many countries. The US is particularly dangerous for mass shootings, deaths involved in criminal activities and domestic violence. That is the reality and if nothing changes it will continue to be the reality and probably much worse - since it has been escalating for years.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Your arguement is invalid, the average joe is not supposed to have full auto in this case it wasn’t but north Hollywood was, the ones used in San bernadino were prohibited and still used. That’s the point, gang bangers have full autos, what’s stopping them? Nothing! Guns are not the Issue and restricting what you can have has not worked either California has proved that over and over. What do you not understand about this?






What about this guy? That’s a bolt gun, bet the body count would have been higher had he been there!


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

These mass shooters are not in a fight against gang bangers or a rogue government or defending themselves. They are killing random people because they want to. They are not criminals. And the excuse of insane, crazy or mentally unstable may apply to some but not all. The average joe - many ``perfect`` gun owners and supposedly law abiding citizens - are not supposed to have full auto but they do and semi auto seems adequate for a killing spree anyways. And the body and injury count will continue to rise. Perhaps stricter more intensive gun laws are not as urgently needed as restructuring male mentality and reeducation.


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## Back2Basix (Dec 24, 2015)

emdeengee said:


> These mass shooters are not in a fight against gang bangers or a rogue government or defending themselves. They are killing random people because they want to. They are not criminals. And the excuse of insane, crazy or mentally unstable may apply to some but not all. The average joe - many ``perfect`` gun owners and supposedly law abiding citizens - are not supposed to have full auto but they do and semi auto seems adequate for a killing spree anyways. And the body and injury count will continue to rise. Perhaps stricter more intensive gun laws are not as urgently needed as restructuring male mentality and reeducation.


So its a gender and race thing??

So let me guess, we need to ban all white males. I'm sorry but have you looked up the FBI crime statistics across race & gender. I'll give you a hint, white males make up a very small figure statistically speaking. And those are "reported" crimes, how many "dinna do nuffin an dinnt see nuffin" crimes go unreported


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

emdeengee said:


> These mass shooters are not in a fight against gang bangers or a rogue government or defending themselves. They are killing random people because they want to. They are not criminals. And the excuse of insane, crazy or mentally unstable may apply to some but not all. The average joe - many ``perfect`` gun owners and supposedly law abiding citizens - are not supposed to have full auto but they do and semi auto seems adequate for a killing spree anyways. And the body and injury count will continue to rise. Perhaps stricter more intensive gun laws are not as urgently needed as restructuring male mentality and reeducation.


Exactly, because they WANT TO! No amount of regulation will stop that. Look at aurora, he didn’t go to the closest theatre he went where it said ONLINE, no guns. Why? Because he knew no one would shoot back. Gun free zones and restrictions make killing fields! I think we should ban any and all buildings over 3 stories and ban concerts because it wouldn’t have happened if those 2 things didn’t exist either. Use some rationale. Yes I have full autos, because I have the required paperwork, yes I have rifles that will easily shoot accurately past 1 mile, should we ban my skills? I also have short barreled and suppressed rifles, all serve a purpose. I also have an extensive collection of lever guns, want those? When’s the last time you saw a mass shooting take place in a gun permitted area with exception of gabby gifords? 1966 in Austin. Think about it long and hard. When the last time Utah had a school shooting? Their teachers can carry, makes people think twice. States with constitutional carry have considerably lower crime rates, had enough truth?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

This may help you some. It’s a touch dated but shows a trend.
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf
First page guns crime and homicides way down for 93 to 2011. Any explanation? Keep reading and see that the vast majority of fatal gun crimes were with......wait for it.....handguns, not rifles, bolt, single, lever, or semi automatic, but handguns. 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.us...omicide-in-america-by-the-numbers?context=amp

Crime has been on the rise since 2015 but is mostly driven by crime in CHICAGO, BALTIMORE, and DC. The racial part you can read and enjoy why you BS angry white male comment is just that BS. 

Guns and regulations of guns are not the problem, it’s idiots who are uneducated and moron judges who take dumb cases and allow society to destroy itself.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Our understanding of the human brain is in it's infancy. We just now have the technology we need, don't fully understand how to use it. We have gone from drilling holes in people's heads to using chemicals to do the same thing. It's not always working. Sometimes the pills cause worse side effects than the illness. Sometimes the illness causes people not to take the pills. Who is going to take pills from the alien zombie that skinned their doctor and is wearing his skin? If that is what you are convinced is happening, you aren't going to take the pills, and even if you took them as prescribed, they might not work on your brain with it's problems the same as someone else with similar, yet different problems. We have always had crazy people. We have always had animosity towards each other, (think 1860's). We have video games now, violent they say. When I was a kid, we pretended to shoot each other with toy guns acting out fantasies every bit as violent as a video game could. We have the internet, well check out some of the old political cartoons. Those papers sat in saloons and barber shops for months until everyone had seen it, just as vile as any meme on facebook. 

It's not the internet, or guns, or any of those things. It is the same thing it always is when trends change. Fashion. Crazy people used to jump off bridges or step in front of trains to ease their affliction. It was the fashionable thing to do. They heard about someone else doing it and filed it away in the deepest recesses of their mind. When the time came it was what they did, because it was fashionable to do. The fashionable thing to do now is go mow a bunch of people down and die in a blaze of glory. Hopefully this trend will change, or else we answer some more questions about the human brain. 

Some mentally ill people have a good support network, people that pay attention to them and pick up on subtle changes, and bring it to the attention of that person and/or their doctor, (little good the latter does in some cases). What happens when the mentally ill have a support network, but it is not necessarily good? What if your support network is ISIS, or some gang? You don't think they get sane people to strap explosives to themselves or go shoot into an apartment complex do you? There are people that are truly evil, and usually they don't get their hands dirty or take unnecessary risks, when their is are mentally deficient people they can exploit.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> painterswife said: ↑
> Blanket statements abound.
> 
> I blame the person who did the act.
> I do want gun control because guns make it easier for that person to commit mass murder.


Everything makes it easy to commit mass murder.
All the laws in the world don't stop the killing though, and never will.
There are too many ways to make WMD's.
Gun laws only disarm those who aren't a problem to begin with.
Keep in mind it was *people with guns* who were called for when help was needed.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

emdeengee said:


> The average joe - many ``perfect`` gun owners and supposedly law abiding citizens - are *not supposed to have full auto*


That's been repeated at least twice, but it's not true at all.

It's perfectly legal to own full auto's in most states as long as you follow the proper procedures.
Most don't own them because they are expensive to buy, expensive to shoot, and offer no advantages over semi-autos at all.

The problem with many people who rant about wanting more gun control laws is they don't even know what the laws are now. 

It's not about guns at all.
They just want control.

I think we should demand that for every new gun restriction that is passed, an old one has to be eliminated, since it's been proven time and time again they really don't stop any crimes.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

I reckon we should add that the lawmakers and elected officials personal security should also have to abide by the same laws we are restricted to.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

*


Back2Basix said:



So its a gender and race thing??

So let me guess, we need to ban all white males. I'm sorry but have you looked up the FBI crime statistics across race & gender. I'll give you a hint, white males make up a very small figure statistically speaking. And those are "reported" crimes, how many "dinna do nuffin an dinnt see nuffin" crimes go unreported

Click to expand...

*Gender and race thing? Yes, according to the records. 
First of all I am talking about the subject of mass shootings which is the subject - not all crime statistics - as you would like to redirect. 

Since so many feel that it is not gun control that is the problem that makes mass shootings so common and easy then the logical next step would be to look at the base cause and start to deal with this. More control over mentally ill people who have the ability to access guns, more surveillance of those who are mentally ill as well as those so called normal people who have made threats and constantly act out. And it is certainly time to look at the anger, lack of character, frustrated by ridiculous feelings of entitlement and pettiness in so many males today - and when it comes to mass shooters this means white males.

Since there is no chance of extended gun control or of government, police or medical looking into the behaviour of white males then it is a simple fact that mass shootings will continue and this is the reality of part of life in the US. Any one, at any time, anywhere can become a mass shooter or a victim.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

emdeengee said:


> Gender and race thing? Yes, according to the records.
> First of all I am talking about the subject of mass shootings which is the subject - not all crime statistics - as you would like to redirect.
> 
> Since so many feel that it is not gun control that is the problem that makes mass shootings so common and easy then the logical next step would be to look at the base cause and start to deal with this. More control over mentally ill people who have the ability to access guns, more surveillance of those who are mentally ill as well as those so called normal people who have made threats and constantly act out. And it is certainly time to look at the anger, lack of character, frustrated by ridiculous feelings of entitlement and pettiness in so many males today - and when it comes to mass shooters this means white males.
> ...


Would mentally ill include veterans with PTSD or a young woman who was raped and has PTSD and the victims who were not killed but involved in mass shooting and things of that nature? Why do you fail to see that the guns or type of gun used makes no difference? Cabin fever said it best when he said that no one seems to care about the 50+ murders a month in Chicago, why one mass shooting? Seems no one cares that all but 1 mass shooting since 1966 has taken place in a non gun free zone. Best yet why have no armed citizens ever stopped a mass shooting? That because the equipment of 3 dead never get met. When police respond to and active shoot er the body count is usually around 14 2.4 when an armed citizen responds, so please continue speaking of something and demanding tighter laws when you know nothing of the current ones or the good and number of lives saved by a gun. Don’t forget the 200k+ women who prevented a sexual assault every year with a gun. Do some research!


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

What I cant understand is why with the recent attacks world wide and heightened homeland security condition here domestically , why with a group gathering that large in the open , roof top sharp shooters/ observers with the LEA for that area weren't in place looking for potential threats as most large cities have been doing by welding manholes closed, using K-9 patrols and sniper/observers since the Boston marathon attack a couple years back ?

When he knocked out the window and started firing, a SWAT sharp shooter on an observation perch might have stopped his bullet hosing quickly with a surgically placed round or two through the broken window just a bit above the muzzle flash produced by the shooters weapon.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

emdeengee said:


> More control over *mentally ill people who have the ability to access guns*, more surveillance of those who are mentally ill as well as those so called normal people who have made threats and constantly act out.


People who have been adjudicated mentally ill can't legally buy nor possess firearms or ammunition. 
What type of "surveillance" would you implement?
Ankle bracelets? Assign a personal LEO to watch 24/7?
That hardly seems realistic.



emdeengee said:


> then it is a simple fact that mass shootings will continue and this is the reality of part of life in the US.


You do realize these things happen all over the world, and it's not always white males?

I thought you said you wanted "logical" solutions, but I'm not seeing much logic at all.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Shrek said:


> What I cant understand is why with the recent attacks world wide and heightened homeland security condition here domestically , why with a group gathering that large in the open , *roof top sharp shooters/ observers* with the LEA for that area weren't in place looking for potential threats as most large cities have been doing by welding manholes closed, using K-9 patrols and sniper/observers since the Boston marathon attack a couple years back ?


There are no taller buildings within about 1000 yards, and a counter-sniper on the ground wouldn't have a good angle for a shot without being directly in the line of fire himself.

Even with thousands of "observers" after the shooting started, there was a lot of confusion as to where the shots were coming from. In the dark a broken window in an unlit room might not be obvious at all. 

Also, there were officers outside his door within 12 minutes of the first shots, and no more shots were fired outside after that time.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

This is what the shooter could see from one window in the hotel:









+76
Above, the view from the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay hotel, in an updated photo. The concert was taking place diagonally across the street, where the stage is seen, with its green roof.

I believe the exit for the area is in the corner closest to the hotel.
Since the Sphinx is visible in this photo, I believe this is the broken window on the shooters left 










+76

The other window would give a view of the airport and main street approaching the hotel, and a different angle on the concert venue.


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## DianeWV (Feb 1, 2007)

Now it is being reported that the hotel security guard that was shot by the shooter was actually shot 6 minutes BEFORE the shooter began firing on the crowd. Original timeline and events shot to hell.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Cabin Fever said:


> Either that, or a rubber band.


It's interesting that youtube removed this video. All it showed was how to turn your AR into a rapid fire (bump fire) weapon using a rubber band.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Cabin Fever said:


> It's interesting that youtube removed this video. All it showed was how to turn your AR into a rapid fire (bump fire) weapon using a rubber band.


You can use a belt loop too!


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

Cabin Fever said:


> I am sitting here wondering why so much emphasis is placed on this horrific tragedy, when on average, 63 people are murdered EVERY MONTH in Chicago alone.


So discuss what Chicago should do to lower its murder rate if you want.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

*In June 2015, there were only 48 weapons convictions in the northern district of Illinois, which includes Rockford and Chicago.
Typical weapon convictions include time served, supervision, home confinement, a fine or no jail time whatsoever. Chicago has one of the lowest felony gun crime conviction rates in the nation. Sentencing is weak. There is no death penalty.
During the same month, there were 51 homicides and 244 people wounded.
There are approx 100,000 gang members in Chicago.
About 80 percent of those charged with gun crimes in 2016 pleaded guilty, with the remainder of the cases going to trial. Only about 30 percent of the defendants whose cases were decided by a judge in a bench trial were convicted, while juries convicted about 42 percent of the gun crime suspects whose cases were brought before them.
The number of people lawfully possessing firearms that are breaking the law is miniscule in comparison.
Chicago has had the same political party hold power since 1931.
Statistically, a US soldier was safer in Afghanistan than Chicago.

A starting point-
Recognition. Call it what it is. This isn't a gun problem, it is a gang problem. It is a social issue treated as a political issue.
Elect judges that will start giving out maximum sentencing for straw purchases, felons with guns, repeat gun offenders, gun trafficking.
Enforce current laws, starting on the street and ending in the courtroom.
Chicago loves social programs. Start focusing on ones promoting family stability, structure and early involvement in after school programs that work, and eliminate the ones that don't.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...-foxx-gun-convictions-met-20170725-story.html
http://heyjackass.com/category/2015-chicago-crime-murder-stats/
http://www.netadvisor.org/2015/08/1...ns-weak-on-criminal-prosecution/#.Wd8a2mhSyUk


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

As the fear of God diminishes, expect more and more of this. This shooter obviously hoped for a permanent demise upon his suicide. And you can call this a religious post, but it only makes sense. When you expect no consequences, you place fewer limitations on your own behavior - ask any child.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MichaelZ said:


> As the fear of God diminishes, expect more and more of this. This shooter obviously hoped for a permanent demise upon his suicide. And you can call this a religious post, but it only makes sense. When you expect no consequences, you place fewer limitations on your own behavior - ask any child.


 Death is a consequence. Jail is a consequence. Burning in a hell has never been a good enough consequence. History proves that.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

painterswife said:


> Death is a consequence. Jail is a consequence. Burning in a hell has never been a good enough consequence. History proves that.


That's because "burning in hell" is not a 'just' punishment and most people don't believe in it, including many Christians. Not all Churches doctrines teach that either.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

mnn2501 said:


> That's because "burning in hell" is not a 'just' punishment and most people don't believe in it, including many Christians. Not all Churches doctrines teach that either.


 It is what my grandmother use to write in her letters to me because I was a bartender in my youth.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

painterswife said:


> It is what my grandmother use to write in her letters to me because I was a bartender in my youth.


I'm not saying its not believed or taught, but would a "just" God punish you forever for losing at a "game" (life) that is stacked against you? To me its one of the worst things that a Church (the RCC Church in the middle ages) ever pushed on people


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

mnn2501 said:


> I'm not saying its not believed or taught, but would a "just" God punish you forever for losing at a "game" (life) that is stacked against you? To me its one of the worst things that a Church (the RCC Church in the middle ages) ever pushed on people


I agree with you. I was just responding to the person that thinks a god's consequences make a difference to people that want to do bad things.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

painterswife said:


> I agree with you. I was just responding to the person that thinks a god's consequences make a difference to people that want to do bad things.


Well, I think religion can make a difference (both positive and also negative) in peoples lives, however fear of eternal punishment is not a motivating factor (to all but a very small minority), and if a person is mentally ill, its not going to help either.
In the Vegas shooters case we still don't know his motivation so everything we say currently is only speculation.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

mnn2501 said:


> Well, I think religion can make a difference (both positive and also negative) in peoples lives, however fear of eternal punishment is not a motivating factor, and if a person is mentally ill, its not going to help either.
> In the Vegas shooters case we still don't know his motivation so everything we say currently is only speculation.


Yes, it can. I just think always using the lack of it as an excuse for the ills of the world is disingenuous. Some of the most important people in my life are religious.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Declan said:


> So discuss what Chicago should do to lower its murder rate if you want.


I don't think you can legislate a change in heart.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

mnn2501 said:


> ... and if a person is mentally ill, its not going to help either.
> In the Vegas shooters case we still don't know his motivation so everything we say currently is only speculation.


An advanced civilization is much more reliant on the decency of its citizens for its survival than it is the force of its laws.
The more laws required to "maintain order" the more deeply that nation slides.

Here is an uncomfortable fact: people who have motives that are insane may be quite rational in their methods; they may in fact be quite ingenious in them. It is ignorance with a little arrogance to assume that people who seem so illogical in their motives cannot outwit well-intentioned regulation, and the advice of “experts.
The insane and the mentally ill can be calculating, methodical, devious, patient, organized, focused, manipulative and quite adept at achieving their goals.
What forms us and causes us to make good moral choices is for another day, but continuing to believe in the inherent goodness of man exposes one obvious difference between most of us and evil; evil isn't gullible.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The other window would give a view of the airport


Mandalay Bay hotel has long been considered the best place to view the comings & goings of "Janets," the fleet of mostly 737s used to transport personnel to and from Las Vegas and Area 51 (Groom Lake) & Tonopah Test Range, because the "Janet terminal" is easily visible across Las Vegas Blvd from the hotel.

http://www.dreamlandresort.com/info/janet_terminal.html

While I find a secret airline interesting, I don't find it interesting enough to devote my life to it like a few I've met.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

Cabin Fever said:


> I don't think you can legislate a change in heart.


Chicago can do things without legislating it.


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