# How hard is it to raise beef cattle?



## fffarmergirl

How hard would it be for a person, who has no experience with cattle, to raise beef cattle?


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## Farmer2B

It depends on your choices. You can go grass fed or feed grain and corn, breed your own calves or buy, breed and sell calves.

I suggest that you read up and decide what you want to do, and then come back and ask.

Good luck with whatever path you decide!


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## fffarmergirl

I guess I should have been more specific!

A person recently told me that it is not difficult to start off with ten cattle (and one bull!) and build up to a herd of 60-80 cattle in 6-7 years, feeding hay and corn grown on your own farm. He said a person who started off as a beginner could quit his day job in 6-7 years.

I do not believe there would be a single easy thing about a bull. Is it difficult to artificially inseminate? Can a beginner do it? 

I think this man might have been pulling my leg.


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## Farmer2B

There are so many things wrong with what he said I'm afraid I might explode. You are smart for not running off and buying your cows before doing research! 

Now, I guess you want to breed calves, and then slaughter them, and then sell the meat?
Before you do that you need to:
-Find a market for the meat
-Find someone who will butcher your cows

If you are confident you have the above + time, money, interest and land to run a minibeef operation go ahead.


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## fffarmergirl

There's a stock yard here - the guy says everybody gets together and brings all their cattle to the stock yard and then somebody drives them down state all together in one big load, because they get more for them at auction that way. I have heard that before from other farmers so I know that much is true.

This guy I was talking to is retired from farming and has moved to town and has his 228 acre farm up for sale. He told me that the government is giving out FHA loans very easily right now and that my son (who is working a $12/hr job as a welder) could get one and buy a farm, and be able to be farming full-time in 6-7 years.

I want to believe it's true - but . . . . .


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## Farmer2B

I'd fine out more about his operation, and if it seems legitimate it might be. If it is real than I'd jump on it, and see if you can get his help.


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## myersfarm

I have been told all my life 

Cows can pay for a cattle farm 

Cows can make you a living

but NOT BOTH at the same time



So for easy math just take how much he wants for farm and divide it by 15 years with out Interest thats how much the cattle have to make EVERY YEAR it will hard to make that payment on 10 cows...and figure how many years it will be befroe the herd does make the payment....With you also HOLDING back heifers to build your herd...maybe 16 years but not 6 or 7


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## Dreamfarm

fffarmergirl said:


> This guy I was talking to is retired from farming and has moved to town and has his 228 acre farm up for sale. He told me that the government is giving out FHA loans very easily right now and that my son (who is working a $12/hr job as a welder) could get one and buy a farm, and be able to be farming full-time in 6-7 years.
> 
> I want to believe it's true - but . . . . .


Follow the money. He wants to sell his farm. He has a lot to gain by convincing you it is easy. Ask yourself: IF it is so easy and profitable why is he not doing it anymore? Ask him to see his records to see if he makes as much money as he says he does.

I dont know about FHA loans, however as a newbie cattle rancher myself I called the USDA about their loan program. Everybody had told me these were easy loans to get. Without farming experience they wont give a loan.

Also a lot of banks want to see a business plan. But of course, check it out and see if it works for you. Like someone stated do lots of research. Everybody has to start somewhere.


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## fffarmergirl

You all are actually making me feel better about the idea than I did before.

I met this guy when I went to his home to take care of him (I'm a home health nurse). He has health problems that make it impossible for him to farm anymore. He lives in a big house on Lake Michigan and also owns an auto body business. All of his brothers are full-time farmers.

So - maybe he's not pulling my leg?

I read that the maximum a person can get with an FHA loan is $300,000 anyway. This place is going for $345,000 - it has huge silos and huge barns and all new roofs on everything, and has a big river running through it, beautiful fields. I've drooled over it in the past.

The house is a 3-bedroom ranch with a wood boiler and the property has enough hardwood on it to provide heat for eternity. . . .

Our son's only farming experience is here on our hobby farm raising chickens and a garden. He did work on an alpaca farm one summer, and shoveled out the neighbor's cow barn . . . . . if he got the place, my husband and I would have to help him out. Neither of us has much experience with cattle. My dad owned a slaughter house so I've been in on that end of things but never raised cattle, or tried to load them into trailers or anything.


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## fffarmergirl

myersfarm said:


> I have been told all my life
> 
> Cows can pay for a cattle farm
> 
> Cows can make you a living
> 
> but NOT BOTH at the same time
> 
> 
> 
> So for easy math just take how much he wants for farm and divide it by 15 years with out Interest thats how much the cattle have to make EVERY YEAR it will hard to make that payment on 10 cows...and figure how many years it will be befroe the herd does make the payment....With you also HOLDING back heifers to build your herd...maybe 16 years but not 6 or 7



He's only 21 - in sixteen years he'll be 37 . . . . . that would be good . . . . . .

The guy I was talking to said that the payment amounts on those loans are very low and easy to make. He said he'd probably never get the farm paid off "but what does it matter?" Maybe his kids would get it paid off some day.


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## myersfarm

JUST GUESSING the farm payment on $345,000 would be in the $3000 a month range on 15 years or $2400 a month on 30 years...thats without any cattle or equipment if he can swing that he would be doing great


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## fffarmergirl

myersfarm said:


> JUST GUESSING the farm payment on $345,000 would be in the $3000 a month range on 15 years or $2400 a month on 30 years...thats without any cattle or equipment if he can swing that he would be doing great


There's absolutely no way he could make a payment like that, but this guy was telling me that the beginning farmer loan payments are much, much lower - like $800/month for the rest of his life. 

The guy was telling me that his nephew got loans and grants and was able to buy an even bigger farm with all the equipment. He's working another job right now to make the payments while working up to full-time farming.

It sounds too good to be true, which is why I am asking about it. Considering all of the farms around here that are just sitting empty, going to waste because kids no longer want to inherit the family farm, it seems like it might be true that the US is desperate for people to get back into farming. 

On the other hand, if farming was profitable, more people would want to go into it, right? So doesn't the abundance of empty farms sitting around here mean that you can't survive on farming?

And even if you can survive on farming - don't you have to be born and raised on a farm to be able to do it? There is a lot to know about farming, and you can't read it all in books. Heck - it took me years just to learn how to take care of a small garden!

I used to work in an ER and, more than once, a dairy farmer was brought in after having a heart attack and refused to be admitted to the hospital because it was _taht important_ for him to be home to milk his cows in the morning. So . . . . . I think dairy farming might be a bad idea. 

Is beef farming that difficult? Can a person have a life while farming? Is a vacation ever possible? Would he ever be able to go fishing?

And it's not just raising beef that he has to learn about - there are hay fields to mow and corn fields to plant . . . . . and harvest . . . . . and what do you do with those silos anyway? How does the corn get into the silos?


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## Farmer2B

I'm afraid the reason the dairy farmer did not want to be in the hospital was the bill.


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## fffarmergirl

On that subject . . . . I guess most farmers can't afford health insurance.


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## myersfarm

If you get it to work for that kind of payment. I am ready to move to your state which ever one it is


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## myersfarm

You are in USA?


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## Dreamfarm

Maybe when he bought the farm 25 years ago at a much cheaper price he had $800 payments that he is still paying on. This is exactly why I am trying to pay off my land before I start farming full time.


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## wvdexters

Be Careful!! Talk to some other people in your area who are farming and raising cattle. Get their advice. Lots of work. Most of the dairies in my area are gone. Couldn't make it. Most of the farmers I know who raise beef cattle have to work full time jobs and work the cattle too. Those payments can be hard to make especially in bad years. Hay and feed are expensive.


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## Wanda

You could not expect more than $100 on a calf in your area. Now figure out how many head per year it will take for just the land payment. How will you be able to save replacements to increase the herd and still have money to pay the loan.

Believe me when I tell you ''if it was that easy the land would already be sold''


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## fffarmergirl

That's what my son was saying - that he would only net $100 per cow and even an $800/mo payment wouldn't be doable unless he continued another job.

He's engaged and her parents are very supportive, and we're very supportive. We could help out with the work if it was actually possible for him to get the farm. It just sounds too good to be true.

As far as the land already being sold - we're in the most economically depressed area of the whole United States, from what I've been told. There's no work. You practically have to inherit a job at McDonalds. Certified welders are working for $12/hr and being told they're lucky to have jobs at all. The majority of the people here are either retired or unemployed. 

There is a gorgeous lakefront farm nearby - right on lake Michigan. I think it's only $250,000 and they haven't even got a bite. Just down the road from us, a well-maintained 80-acre farm near thousands of acres of federal forest land for $120,000 - it's been on the market for over a year and it's not going to sell.

This used to be a big dairy area but then our local dairy closed and nobody can sell their milk. The big beautiful farms are just sitting empty and decaying. Kids don't want the family farm after seeing it bankrupt their parents . . . . most kids nowadays want some money and electronics etc.

Gee - after reading this I don't know if he should take the farm even if it's handed to him on a silver platter LOL.


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## pancho

fffarmergirl said:


> I guess I should have been more specific!
> 
> A person recently told me that it is not difficult to start off with ten cattle (and one bull!) and build up to a herd of 60-80 cattle in 6-7 years, feeding hay and corn grown on your own farm. He said a person who started off as a beginner could quit his day job in 6-7 years.
> 
> I do not believe there would be a single easy thing about a bull. Is it difficult to artificially inseminate? Can a beginner do it?
> 
> I think this man might have been pulling my leg.


It is just as easy or maybe a little easier to start with 10 cattle and 1 bull and end up with nothing in less years.
With no experience raising beef cattle it is easy to loose a few. Like any live animal some will die, some won't calve, some will get sick, and some may even be stolen.
If it was that easy there would be lots more small farms.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

Let me give you some advice from the voice of experience.

What he said about increasing the size of the herd in so many years is true, IF, none of your babies die at birth, IF all of your cows conceive every time, IF half your babies are heifers and grow to breeding age and get bred without difficulty, IF your hay is good quality and you fertilize regular and cut the hay on time and the weather cooperates, IF you have a competent livestock vet that will be there when you need him, IF your grain crop doesn't fail or whatever reason, IF you don't have some disease or parasite wipe out half your herd, or cause other problems, IF your steers are reaching market weight in 18-24 months, IF the price of beef doesn't tank, IF you have buyer. 

I'm not saying you shouldn't get cattle, nor am I saying all these things will happen to you, but some of them could and likely will. Every livestock farmer, regardless of how seasoned they are, has tragedy that sets them back.

I would take what he says with a spoonful of salt and realize he is playing out the best possible scenario of success. I am sure he wants you to succeed, as he wants to sell his farm, just keep your head in the scope of reality.

The people here are here to help you and that is why I am saying these things, not to discourage, but to keep you aware.

I wanted to add about bulls. Docility of the bull is directly related to your choice of breed. We don't tolerate an aggressive cow of any kind. We keep 2-4 intact bulls at all times, together with the herd. I wouldn't screw with AI unless I wanted the genetics of a specific animal because I was big into purebreds. Just be sure to have a separate enclosure for your bull or bulls and put them with the herd at the right time of the year so your babies are born when you want.

I should also ask, have you ever worked with cattle? If you haven't than jumping in with two feet like that might not be such a good idea. Cattle are big and can be frightening and unpredictable. You really need to know how to handle and work them before getting 10 at once.


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## myersfarm

fffarmergirl said:


> The big beautiful farms are just sitting empty and decaying. Kids don't want the family farm after seeing it bankrupt their parents . . . . most kids nowadays want some money and electronics etc.
> 
> Gee - after reading this I don't know if he should take the farm even if it's handed to him on a silver platter LOL.


Now your talking about big beautiful farms with Family farming in there background that went Bankrupt..

.I see you wanting to get in on a good deal...and it sounds like your son is a hard worker weilding is not easy.....but that is the point most of the other farm owners kids would have got the farm on a silver plater...and realize FARMING IS HARD some years...But the banks and the owners do not just give the farms away..and let people pay for them FOREVER 



btw I never heard of grants for farming only subsidies for not growing a crop

I think he was pulling on both your legs....


BUt check into it things could be different with the banks there but the 80 acres for $120,000 that has not sold should tell you...they are harder to buy then your friend says...if they were that cheap to buy some hard working 40 or 50 year old WITH MONEY would buy more than just one and start a BONAZA


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## myersfarm

I was just walking out the door and it hit me

Talk to him about OWNER FINANCING FOREVER see what he thinks about that .

with very little down payment and very little interest


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## agmantoo

If you want a positive boost on beef cattle production jump to the sticky above on rotational grazing and read for a while. With 228 acres I do believe I could make the payments from the cattle income. I may have to drive a less than new vehicle and I would pick up some discretionary income from off the farm. My quality of life and the satisfaction from what I do would offset my having to to be prudent with my purchases.


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## myersfarm

YES Amantoo you can in your area but could you do it in Michigan ?

Starting with 10 head cows ?


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## agmantoo

With limited family support (some labor) and as you mentioned owner financing, I started with less. I would attempt to market my cattle differently than what I do in order to add value. I know there would be added expense for Winter feed but i doubt that I would have the concerns that exists here regarding drought. Land is a lot cheaper in Michigan than here so that would help.


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## fffarmergirl

I've only worked with cattle in a slaughter house. My dad is a butcher and has been injured by more than one. 

I was thinking about the owner financing for 3 years until he has the experience under his belt to decide if it's what he wants to do and apply for the loan. We could agree with the owner that, if he finds another buyer in the meantime, we will sell the cattle to the new owner and leave. That's IF the owner is willing.

This would obviously be a whole-family thing and my son and his fiance would have a lot of help and support - from a lot of adults who have never worked with cattle . . . . .

The owner grew hay and corn as well - does that count as a crop, myersfarm, or just as cattle feed? He says he has one field planted to hay and one to clover right now. I went out there and looked and couldn't drive back in my little car but I saw what looked like a big hay field. I only saw a few acres.


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## myersfarm

The owner grew hay and corn as well - does that count as a crop, myersfarm, or just as cattle feed? 

if he sold it it would be a crop and maybe be able to get subsidies....if he feed it nothing but feed no subsidies at all


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## WJMartin

As far as looking for financing I would not expect much from the banks. Look online for USDA loans and talk with the extension folks and such. My son just closed on a USDA loan for $141,000 at 1% interest and by filling out one more page of paperwork got the interest paid so his payment is around $500 or $600 a month, he did purchase a house and acreage but I'm just encourageing you to search for financing. The owner finance would be wonderful.


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## opportunity

I don't see how you could increase your heard by that much unless you bough cows from someone else by the time 10 cows reproduce to get to 80 by just saving the heifers the original cows are usually 12 years old and often ready to go to butcher. i started with 3 and have 30 after 6 years but I have not made any money and used the money from the steers to buy handling equipment and more cows. my husband makes the land payment or it doens't work. i might make a small profit this fall but I'm nowhere near a living wage from teh cows they are expensive to raise


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## fffarmergirl

opportunity said:


> I don't see how you could increase your heard by that much unless you bough cows from someone else by the time 10 cows reproduce to get to 80 by just saving the heifers the original cows are usually 12 years old and often ready to go to butcher. i started with 3 and have 30 after 6 years but I have not made any money and used the money from the steers to buy handling equipment and more cows. my husband makes the land payment or it doens't work. i might make a small profit this fall but I'm nowhere near a living wage from teh cows they are expensive to raise


You started with 3 and have 30 in 6 years. That's a 10 fold increase. So if he started with ten . . . . . did you make enough $ from the steers to buy the handling equipment and more cows or did you have to supplement from your personal income?

The barns, fencing, etc. are all in place and there's a big hay field . . . . he would have to get a tractor right off the bat . . . . . . . 

The owner said something about keeping a minimum #, just breeding stock, through the winter months. Don't you have to raise a calf for 2 years before you can sell it for meat?


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## Dreamfarm

fffarmergirl said:


> I've only worked with cattle in a slaughter house. My dad is a butcher and has been injured by more than one.
> 
> I was thinking about the owner financing for 3 years until he has the experience under his belt to decide if it's what he wants to do and apply for the loan. We could agree with the owner that, if he finds another buyer in the meantime, we will sell the cattle to the new owner and leave. That's IF the owner is willing./////////
> 
> 
> 
> When I spoke to the USDA regarding loans ( within the past 60 days) I was told that if I went ahead and bought the property,(since I did not qualify yet without the experience) the USDA would not do refinancing.
> 
> Do research to see what your son qualifies for first under USDA and call the office for your area. I know there are beginning farmer plans, especially for young farmers under a certain age as well as minorities including women.
> 
> Perhaps your years in the slaughterhouse might qualify as experience and you could go in together with him and he makes the payments.
> 
> Buy the land and lease out pasture use that to help make payments.
> 
> I did not qualify for USDA loans due to my lack of experience. Instead I am purchasing my farm one parcel at a time with owner financing (10 years) Still working my current job. As I gain experience I will be able to qualify for the USDA loan and can hopefully buy the rest with a USDA loan.
> 
> I think you need to make $500 per year. If you bought 5 cows to start, no bull and did rotational grass feeding like Agmantoo, Used AI, and instead of selling calves for $100, keep them a year or two ( since the grass does not cost extra) you can then sell them at a higher price. Your son has time on his side.
> 
> But like I said first check the USDA and see what and if you qualify, but dont do owner financing and hope to use the USDA to refinance.
> 
> Here are a couple of links to checkout. I think you are in Michigan right?
> 
> The regular USDA Loan Page is under maintenance right now, but this can help you get started. Here are two links for you.
> 
> http://www.fsa.usda.gov/Internet/FSA_File/lender_guide_flp.pdf
> 
> Welcome
> 
> 
> Hope this is helpful.


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## fffarmergirl

Yup - we're in Michigan and I will check out those links right now. Thanks!


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## bruce2288

Boy a lot of questions. Is this your son's dream or your dream? Family project? Is the family willing to take orders from your son? How long will thhis family help last, a month, a year, 5 years? Does your son have savings? Starting a farm from scratch will have enormous start up costs livestock, tools, fencing material, equipment, fertilizer,seed, ect ect. No offense but a $12/ hr job is not going to leave a lot to finance the farm. I think the debt load and lack of experience would cause this to end badly. Renting a small pasture or field or better yet working part-time for a farmer to gain some experience would be a first step. Starting farming from scatch on a scale to actually make a decent living is very difficult unless one is in an area to be able to sell high priced niche market product direct to the public.


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## Farmer2B

Doing a trade for access to a bull is better than buying a bull. I mean unless you want to go purebred the only real concern you ought to have is to make sure that the bull does not get your cows pregnant with too big calves.

I also heard of people buying a bull calf, using it, and slaughtering it? I do not know enough about that to suggest it though.


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## pancho

Wy not try his hand at farming on your hobby farm. It would bive him a start and some experience. Sometimes people learn they do not like farming as much as they thought. It would be much better to try it out for a while. He is still young enough he could invest a few years in learning and save up some cash also.


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## Allen W

fffarmergirl said:


> The owner grew hay and corn as well - does that count as a crop, myersfarm, or just as cattle feed? He says he has one field planted to hay and one to clover right now. I went out there and looked and couldn't drive back in my little car but I saw what looked like a big hay field. I only saw a few acres.


You need to ask the owner if he has any crop base with a FSA to get your answer.


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## oregon woodsmok

A couple of things: 

228 acres is not going to support 80 head of cattle in zone 4 or 5.

If the area is economically depressed and real estate is not selling, that old farmer has his property way over-priced.

In order to turn 10 cows into 80 cows, you wouldn't be able to sell anything. So no income all that time.

Did he mention that the 10 cows would cost you about $15,000, and that's not for outstanding quality. You might be able to get a yearling bull good enough for a herd sire for commercial grade cattle for $1500, but $2500 is more realistic.

And, to answer your question, cattle can be quite easy to raise if you have perfect fences, the gates in just the right places, feed bunkers, solidly built mixing pens, squeeze chutes, and head gates. All the right equipment makes a huge difference and costs a lot of money.

I had cutting horses and we never went out after cattle with horses. The cattle were trained to come into the dry lot every evening for their grain. Then I could just close the pasture gate and open the gate to the pasture where I wanted them moved.

I could use pour-on while they were eating their grain. If they needed vaccinating, they went through the chutes and were held safely while I gave them their shot.

Cows that went for people when their calves were being worked with got culled. Cows that needed a calf pulled got culled. Cows that didn't bring a calf to the weaning pens got culled. So the cows were easy to work with.

Working with cattle without cattle experience, can get people hurt, and cattle injuries are usually serious. They don't give you a black eye; they break 5 of your ribs.


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## sammyd

you can get up to 40 years with the FSA loan which will lower the monthly payment from what folks are used to with a 30 year not amortization.
You will have to carry insurance on everything because the FSA will require it since everything will in essence belong to them. 
You will not be able to buy or sell cattle or anything listed as collateral without a countersignature from the FSA office.
The FSA will also require the boy to attend classes at a local tech or college so that he can learn stuff about farming. Biggest is business classes. 
Look at the numbers before you listen to some coffee shop cowboy.
The first year you may get 5 steers but they won't be income till the 3rd year.
So you have this big farm payment and the beef will not be paying off. You will have to borrow to put in crops pay the vet, fix fences etc, the FSA will lend you that as an operating loan. You will have to make those crops pay the op loan plus some the farm loan for a couple of years until the cows start shipping as fat cattle. But even then 5 fats the third year aren't going to get you too far. And 12 bucks an hour isn't going to be a big help.
The 4th year you will have 7 or 8 to ship. If all the cows breed back like they should and none of them keel over dead......

Course you could ship them all earlier as replacements instead of keeping them till finished.


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## haypoint

228 acres and grow your own hay and corn while pasturing up to 80 cows? 
To grow and harvest corn for less than it sells for from another farmer would require a huge investment in equipment, seed, fertilizer and luck. Not likely going to happen. To make hay requires an investment in equipment and fuel, extra labor and good weather. Hay fields need plowed up and re-established. 

Right now, cattle prices are at record high prices. Good if you are selling, not so good if you want in right now. Not too long ago, feeder calf prices were half what they are now. Then what?

There are lots of skills needed to grow profitable corn and hay. Everyone can learn, but the education is costly.

If there was enough money in it to pay for the farm, those that control lots of cash would buy it and pay someone $10 an hour to farm it. That isn't happening. There is more money in brokering farm commodities than producing them, so the smart money isn't buying farms, they are buying futures contracts.


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## Wanda

Set down and figure a 5 and 10 year business plan for the people you hope to get a loan from. It should answer your questions and then some when you start plugging in real figures!

Your lender will want this info so it is a good time to start. No one is going to loan the money for a farm because it has been there lifelong dream to own one.

This will be good experience for your son whether he purchases this farm or one at a later date.


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## Evons hubby

fffarmergirl said:


> How hard would it be for a person, who has no experience with cattle, to raise beef cattle?


Its not all that difficult. You need an ample water supply, feed, and space.... thats about it. There are lots of variations in accomplishing that theme but those are the basics. Knowledge going in helps, but like anything else can be learned as you go along. In my experience its much easier to start out with a few older cows and a gentle bull. Let the herd grow on its own selling off the oldest cows when they no longer produce, along with most of the bull calves, saving back your best heifers and the occasional exceptional bull to replace the culls as you go along. Once you have your herd built up to the limit that you can take care of on your land... you have cull cows and calves to sell each year.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

oregon woodsmok said:


> A couple of things:
> 
> 228 acres is not going to support 80 head of cattle in zone 4 or 5.


I totally disagree with this. We are zone 4B. When the weather was right (as in no severe drought or horrific flooding) and we top dressed the pastures on time, we were able to support 40+ head (birth to finish) on 50 acres, and that included cutting our own hay off this same land for winter feed. Only when we got up to 70 head, did we have to buy in hay. Of course, we are only grass fed, so we kept the steers until age 2 1/2, but irrelevant.

If those pastures are cross fenced correctly for daily rotation and fertilized appropriately, 150 acres of pasture should support 80 head in the green months no problem. Use the rest to cut hay off of, or grow your grain if you choose that route.


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## MO_cows

I would not advise anybody to get into the cattle business on borrowed money. Start small and let the cattle pay for the infrastructure you will need for a larger herd. Chute, trailer, etc. This might mean you have to sell heifers instead of keeping them to build the herd at first, but you will own everything free and clear and if you have to get out, everything you can sell them for is yours to keep.


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## fffarmergirl

bruce2288 said:


> Boy a lot of questions. Is this your son's dream or your dream? Family project? Is the family willing to take orders from your son? How long will thhis family help last, a month, a year, 5 years? Does your son have savings? Starting a farm from scratch will have enormous start up costs livestock, tools, fencing material, equipment, fertilizer,seed, ect ect. No offense but a $12/ hr job is not going to leave a lot to finance the farm. I think the debt load and lack of experience would cause this to end badly. Renting a small pasture or field or better yet working part-time for a farmer to gain some experience would be a first step. Starting farming from scatch on a scale to actually make a decent living is very difficult unless one is in an area to be able to sell high priced niche market product direct to the public.


It is his dream but it would be a family thing. It would be completely impossible for him to do it withouta significant amount of help from us. It sounds like its not worth the risk even with our help. I was hoping that he could get the loans for the farm and equipment and we could provide labor and buy the initial cows.



Farmer2B said:


> Doing a trade for access to a bull is better than buying a bull. I mean unless you want to go purebred the only real concern you ought to have is to make sure that the bull does not get your cows pregnant with too big calves.
> 
> I also heard of people buying a bull calf, using it, and slaughtering it? I do not know enough about that to suggest it though.


What would u trade for access to a bull? How do you give all of your cows access to someone's bull? Drive them there all at once and let them out with him?



pancho said:


> Wy not try his hand at farming on your hobby farm. It would bive him a start and some experience. Sometimes people learn they do not like farming as much as they thought. It would be much better to try it out for a while. He is still young enough he could invest a few years in learning and save up some cash also.


We were thinking this might be the way to go. He doesn't live with us, he lives with his fiancee. They wouldn't want to move in with us and I was under the impression a farmer had to spend time with his cows every day. He lives about 25 miles away so I have a feeling we would be the ones getting the experience.



oregon woodsmok said:


> A couple of things:
> 
> 228 acres is not going to support 80 head of cattle in zone 4 or 5.
> 
> If the area is economically depressed and real estate is not selling, that old farmer has his property way over-priced.
> 
> In order to turn 10 cows into 80 cows, you wouldn't be able to sell anything. So no income all that time.
> 
> Did he mention that the 10 cows would cost you about $15,000, and that's not for outstanding quality. You might be able to get a yearling bull good enough for a herd sire for commercial grade cattle for $1500, but $2500 is more realistic.
> 
> And, to answer your question, cattle can be quite easy to raise if you have perfect fences, the gates in just the right places, feed bunkers, solidly built mixing pens, squeeze chutes, and head gates. All the right equipment makes a huge difference and costs a lot of money.
> 
> I had cutting horses and we never went out after cattle with horses. The cattle were trained to come into the dry lot every evening for their grain. Then I could just close the pasture gate and open the gate to the pasture where I wanted them moved.
> 
> I could use pour-on while they were eating their grain. If they needed vaccinating, they went through the chutes and were held safely while I gave them their shot.
> 
> Cows that went for people when their calves were being worked with got culled. Cows that needed a calf pulled got culled. Cows that didn't bring a calf to the weaning pens got culled. So the cows were easy to work with.
> 
> Working with cattle without cattle experience, can get people hurt, and cattle injuries are usually serious. They don't give you a black eye; they break 5 of your ribs.


$15,000?????? Seriously??????? Good lord. I know about cow injuries .. . . Saw a few
people who learned the hard way.

Tomorrow I will be seeing the owner of this farm for the last time. If he mentions the farm again I think I will just tell him that its a beautiful place but our soon doesn't have the required three years of experience to get the loan.

This is very discouraging. My son and his fiancee have this idealistic dream of both of them being able to work from home and have about five kids and raise them on a farm and homeschool them. I think its a beautiful dream and I so wish they could do it.


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## fffarmergirl

I grew up in a farming community in rural Kansas, but my dad was a butcher, not a farmer. Most of my classmates lived on farms. All of their moms stayed home and all of their dads farmed full time. I am 42. Has the world changed so much since my childhood? 

When I went back for my class reunion only one of my classmates was living there, and he was not farming. Not one single one of myclassmates took over the farm. what is going to happen if the only people who can make a living wage farming are those who have inherited farms and therefore own the land free and clear, yet nobody wants the family farms? Are family farmers going to be ancient history?


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## Dreamfarm

fffarmergirl said:


> I grew up in a farming community in rural Kansas, but my dad was a butcher, not a farmer. Most of my classmates lived on farms. All of their moms stayed home and all of their dads farmed full time. I am 42. Has the world changed so much since my childhood?
> 
> When I went back for my class reunion only one of my classmates was living there, and he was not farming. Not one single one of myclassmates took over the farm. what is going to happen if the only people who can make a living wage farming are those who have inherited farms and therefore own the land free and clear, yet nobody wants the family farms? Are family farmers going to be ancient history?


If farming is not profitable doing things the way things have always been done..you have to change the way you do things. You have to find your own niche where you can be profitable. I'm 41, one year younger than you and my youngest is twelve. We will have a family farm, but we know we have to do things differently that has been done in the past. I looked online at family and small farms in different parts of the country. It seems to me that less than 10% have websites. So much untapped income left on the table by not being available to internet customers who want wool, jam, beef,honey etc.

Also I think you must have more than one avenue of income. Yes, you are selling beef, but what else can you offer. An herb garden can be used to sell dried herbs online or even seeds and advice to others starting an herb garden. or can be sold to restaurants with weekly delivery. This way if something happens to the cows one year, you can still make it work.

Look at Walter Jeffrey's website and blog Sugar Mountain Farm | All Natural Pastured Pigs, Poultry, Sheep, Dogs and Kids in the mountains of Vermont
or Kit Pharo. He rants a lot and is opinionated, but he does excellent marketing. If you ignore his religious and political rants he does know something about raising profitable cattle.

Pharo Cattle Company

Why cant you sell to someone on the other side of your state who lives in a big city. As was said before make a plan that works for your situation.


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## fffarmergirl

Maybe no family farmers can AFFORD the internet, LOL!

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

Maybe the best idea is for my husband and I to get a herd started now on our little bit of land and grow it to whatever size will work here. By the time we are old the house and land will be paid off and somebody will have a start, at least - our son or his kids if anybody is still interested by then. 40 acres next to us has been foreclosed on but the bank hasn't bothered putting it up for sale. It's mostly open land. It has a big new barn and a camp on it. It was never used for farming.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

That is a very smart idea. Why strangle yourself with debt from day one? That way you can make your major mistakes while you can afford too.


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## haypoint

fffarmergirl said:


> It is his dream but it would be a family thing. It would be completely impossible for him to do it withouta significant amount of help from us. It sounds like its not worth the risk even with our help. I was hoping that he could get the loans for the farm and equipment and we could provide labor and buy the initial cows.
> 
> 
> 
> What would u trade for access to a bull? How do you give all of your cows access to someone's bull? Drive them there all at once and let them out with him?
> 
> 
> 
> We were thinking this might be the way to go. He doesn't live with us, he lives with his fiancee. They wouldn't want to move in with us and I was under the impression a farmer had to spend time with his cows every day. He lives about 25 miles away so I have a feeling we would be the ones getting the experience.
> 
> 
> 
> $15,000?????? Seriously??????? Good lord. I know about cow injuries .. . . Saw a few
> people who learned the hard way.
> 
> Tomorrow I will be seeing the owner of this farm for the last time. If he mentions the farm again I think I will just tell him that its a beautiful place but our soon doesn't have the required three years of experience to get the loan.
> 
> This is very discouraging. My son and his fiancee have this idealistic dream of both of them being able to work from home and have about five kids and raise them on a farm and homeschool them. I think its a beautiful dream and I so wish they could do it.


Your son does have a beautiful dream. Many people that visit this site share a similar dream. I catch a lot of flack because I've been trying to make such a dream a reality. I know many parts of this dream just don't work.

Raising a herd of cattle and making a living off selling cattle at the local auction barn isn't going to feed the children. Might not even feed the cattle. Many people that chase this dream end up with husband and wife working off the farm and coming home to chores.

A few people are able to arket their organic beef to a nearby cluster of rich folk willing to pay a lot extra for the feeling they are getting something special. A few people are getting million dollar contracts to play hockey, too. I wouldn't quit my day job for either dream. It is possible to earn an off farm income and raise 50 beef cows.

If your son is widly successful, you may feel you should be repaid for your startup investment (not likely to happen)and that'll cause strained relationships. If he doesn't have enough profit to live on and wakes up to the fact he's working for nothing or minimum wage, he may blame you for getting him into this impossable situation with no easy way out.

75 years ago, my Grandpa raised beef cattle and made a reasonable wage, had a lot of what your son dreams for. But he was raising show cattle for a rich Doctor. Not much has gotten better in all those years.


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## SCRancher

Ok I'll wade in on this one because it's similar to what I want to do with the exception that my job net's me a significant income which is why I can afford to do this.

I bought 80 acres 40 in cotton farm 40 in woods. I got cost share to convert it to pasture and I got cost share to fence the cows out of the creek - these are probably NOT available in your area it was very specific to my watershed area. You wont have this issue anyway if it's an existing cattle farm.

I bought my land outright by refinancing my paid for house taking the equity out of the house to purchase the land. I looked into buying land on debt but it was going to require a 30% down payment + the interest rates were business class and thus higher so the economical thing to do was the way I did it.

I did this to build a house and move out of the city knowing I wanted a hoby farm. Those plans have changed and I'll get to that.

It took me several years to get everything done to support a cattle. After a few months I finally found a cattlemen that was reducing his herd size and offered a real deal on getting registered PB Black Angus - 10 cows cost me ~ $14,000 - that would be considerably higher in today's market.

I had to buy other equipment like tractor and cattle handling etc which totaled around $40k.

So I started with 10 cows no bull all cows were preg. Income from the first crop of calves came to $3,500 which I used to buy a bull. 2nd calf crop is still on the land and is 8-10 months old now. I'll keep all the heifers - 4 and sell all the bull calves 6. In the market today I expect to get around 6k for the bull calves at auction and I was hoping to sell as starting stock for around 9k but it does not appear I am getting any takers ATM. I am also considering steering them and trying to sell grass fed beef but I have work to do to get to that point but by my estimates this route could net 9 to 12 thousand for the calf crop but again I have not yet sat down and really calculated this out.

I could NOT do this if I had to earn a living from it or expect to make the land payments from this.

I had NO experience ever with farming of any kind - I'm a city slicker - or I was. I have a great vet and really enjoy working outside on my farm but I know I can not raise enough cattle to retire on it.

Oh I can not build on the land I have - it's a long story that ends with out electricity and potential issues with accessing the property.

Since I have a great income now I am now looking into buying a larger property - > 200 acres. Around here farm land that is cleared and flat goes for 4k per acre - more than I want to spend. Forest land goes for 2k to 2.5k per acre so I'm looking into that avenue and taking my time converting to pasture for livestock. My goal is to be able to run 100 head of cattle on my 80 acres + the acreage I want to purchase. Reasonable estimate gross income from this would be around 60k if I took the auction route - note the auction route is the least income potential which is what I base everything off of.

I do NOT plan on using the income from the cattle to pay for the land - I seriously doubt I could make that work especially in the beginning. I plan on having everything paid for in 10 years from the income from my job at which point I would like to retire on the income of the cattle.

I'm sorry to say I don't think you can do this UNLESS the land payments and needed equipment and seed stock could be paid for from off farm income.

Now to answer your question on how hard it is to raise beef cattle - IMO raising beef cattle is really easy once you have the infrastructure in place. Since I don't live on my farm and fuel is so expensive I typically only go out there to move the cattle once a week - however there are times (winter feeding and now a bottle calf) that I have to visit the farm daily and even twice a day - so it CAN be a pain not living on the farm and drains profitability from the operation.

I typically only round up my cattle 2 to 3 times a year through the handling facilities - twice a year for ear fly tags and once a year for vaccinations.

If I lived on the farm I would do daily moves and be able to increase my stocking density. I figure my 80 acres will support 20 cow/calf pairs - right now I have 12 mature cattle, 4 heifers I'm retaining to bring my mature cattle up to 16. Next year I'll retain heifers again and cull my bull unless I have a new place then I'll start working toward 2 herds and not have to worry about inbreeding by moving stock between the 2 herds.

Anyway I find cattle fun and plan on making it my retirement.


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## fffarmergirl

Thank you so much, everybody, for all the great information and advice! 

We're going to our extension office some time soon to get advice on how many acres per cow we need to fence off here in our location. We're going to start buying fencing materials and as soon as we have all of the equipment in place we'll start raising cattle. Next year, maybe.

Maybe we'll start off with a couple of yearling steers and grow them to eating size? I'm getting the impression that'st he easiest way to get acquanted with cattle? I'm sure there are a lot of threads here about getting started so I th ink I'll go browse around some more.

Yeeehaaaaawww we're going to be cowfolks!


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## wvdexters

If you really, really want this place have you considered maybe raising something other than beef cattle? Maybe there is a niche or something you can fill. Something people want and are willing to pay more for. I don't know your area but if you can find something that would bring you more than $100 a calf perhaps you could swing it. Especially if he keeps his job, gets real good financing and everyone helps out. It would cost more in the start up but it could pay more down the road. Some specialty breeds sell pretty high. 

Maybe he could rent for a while, give it a try, and if it doesn't work sell the stock and get out of it without a big loss.


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## Cliff

There's more money to be made in the grass fed beef niche than going the traditional routes. It takes excellent marketing skills and a location close enough a decent sized population of upper middle to upper class people who have the disposable income and inclination towards buying this type product though. And there's a steeper learning curve. It takes some knowledge of grazing management to be able to consistently finish good beef on grass. The right person with the inclination and ability could do very well selling grass fed beef directly to the public. For someone with absolutely no knowledge of cattle I think it could be done but would take incredible commitment and passion for learning as quickly as possible.

I'm good on the cow side of things, and very aware of the health benefits of grass fed beef, I just hate marketing with a passion - otherwise I'd be doing this.


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## agmantoo

I keep seeing this $100 /calf number showing up. If that is what people are making from calves they need to either change their operation or liquidate if they are not hobby farming. In the current cattle market the prices are at an all time high. I know this will not last but even in an average market a well run feeder calf operation should IMO be netting 3 to 4 times the $100 spoken. It is possible to net more than I stated. Is it possible to go from playing computer games to efficient cattle production the obvious answer is no. But a young person with good work ethics and an internal desire to succeed and is willing to educate their self to the task at hand while making some sacrifices can succeed. Notice in my replies, I never stated it was going to be easy. An aside short story. I had a want to be young farmer that was farming visit me. He came to see me as someone suggested he should. He was deep in debt and could not pay his bills and he was seeking info on what he should do. I told him what he did not want to hear. He was told to get an off the farm job. He stated he was not qualified. I told him I knew he could drive machinery and to go seek work driving a forklift. He managed to get work doing that. He worked all the overtime he could, he carried his lunch, he drove his 12 year truck to work and in less than 5 years he was free of the debts he had incurred trying to farm. Instead of full time farming he ratcheted down to part time, farming after work and on weekends. He retained his job driving the forklift. His employer had a 401K plan and he participated in the plan to the fullest. Within another 7 years he married, bought some rental property, rented more land to farm, left his lift truck job and has now gone to full time farming and selling farm produced products. He now has no debt other than his home mortgage and is very happy and is still a relative young man with ambition to buy a large farm. If the desire is there most anything can be made to happen, can't it?


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## oregon woodsmok

I think there is a limit to the number of people who will pay super premium prices for grass raised locker beef. I think that if you are running 80 cow/calf units, you aren't going to be able to sell a fraction of it as locker beef. Plus, if you are selling locker beef, you will have to run all those calves on for almost 2 years.

The people I know who are selling locker beef, buy feeders in the spring when the grass comes in, and they only do 5-6 of them a year.

The best money for an operation with 80 cows is to sell perfectly matched carloads of preconditioned feeder cattle. Sell them in the on-line auctions and the feedlots send the trucks for them at the farm and you don't have to move them around.

Black cattle bring more money, so I would maintain a herd of good quality Herefords and run them with breeding quality Angus bulls and sell black baldy feeders.

The feed lots won't take a few extra head. It is a full carload or nothing, so maybe the extras who won't fit on the truck can be raised up and sold as locker beef.


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## fffarmergirl

wvdexters said:


> If you really, really want this place have you considered maybe raising something other than beef cattle? Maybe there is a niche or something you can fill. Something people want and are willing to pay more for. I don't know your area but if you can find something that would bring you more than $100 a calf perhaps you could swing it. Especially if he keeps his job, gets real good financing and everyone helps out. It would cost more in the start up but it could pay more down the road. Some specialty breeds sell pretty high.
> 
> Maybe he could rent for a while, give it a try, and if it doesn't work sell the stock and get out of it without a big loss.


He just really really wants to farm. He said today that place is out of the question for him right now, although it is beautiful. He's not positive beef is the best way to go right now. He is weighing all of his options and now he is researching the possibility of raising chickens and selling locally. That might just be the way to go, as our local processing plant only recently syarted processing chickens, and there aren't any big chicken farms in the area yet that I know of. We already raise 100 broilers per year and process them here for ourselves and fa,ily, so he could try out his hand at marketing etc without investing too much right away. 

He hasn't committed himself to anything yet. He's very serious and being reasonable and thinking things through. I'm proud of him!


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## zephyrcreek

I'm in Michigan also. My Uncle has a 40 acre farm and additional acreage he shares with another farmer. They raise all of their own feed. Cattle are grass fed, and supplemented. We are in the thumb. He has been doing this for years. In a recent conversation he told me his average cost is $0.50/lb ( stock value + feed. does not include equipment/infastructure costs) to raise his hybrids to age. He does not sell at premium prices, and still makes a decent amount of money. I don't know if this info helps....but there is a demand in Michigan for grass fed beef. 

Two years ago I was raising and selling hatching eggs of rare heritage poultry. I was averaging $3000 in sales a month during the season (March - September). There are other things you can do to supplement your income while the longer term livestock is taking off. Unfortunetely for me I lost half my breeding flock to a mink, and am spending this year rebuilding the flock so that I can be back in business next year. 

I personally have found it better to start small and build your business, and I am a jump in with both feet kind of girl. 

The only other thing I can think of is the importance of rotational grazing and multip species grazing. Livestock is healthier and have less parisites when these systems are combined. I graze horses followed by sheep followed by poultry. Hopefully in a few years I will be adding cattle and possibly feeder hogs.


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## lakeportfarms

zephyrcreek said:


> I'm in Michigan also. My Uncle has a 40 acre farm and additional acreage he shares with another farmer. They raise all of their own feed. Cattle are grass fed, and supplemented. We are in the thumb. He has been doing this for years. In a recent conversation he told me his average cost is $0.50/lb ( stock value + feed. does not include equipment/infastructure costs) to raise his hybrids to age. He does not sell at premium prices, and still makes a decent amount of money. I don't know if this info helps....but there is a demand in Michigan for grass fed beef.
> 
> Two years ago I was raising and selling hatching eggs of rare heritage poultry. I was averaging $3000 in sales a month during the season (March - September). There are other things you can do to supplement your income while the longer term livestock is taking off. Unfortunetely for me I lost half my breeding flock to a mink, and am spending this year rebuilding the flock so that I can be back in business next year.
> 
> I personally have found it better to start small and build your business, and I am a jump in with both feet kind of girl.
> 
> The only other thing I can think of is the importance of rotational grazing and multip species grazing. Livestock is healthier and have less parisites when these systems are combined. I graze horses followed by sheep followed by poultry. Hopefully in a few years I will be adding cattle and possibly feeder hogs.


ZephyrCreek,

Send me a message sometime if you'd like to visit our farm, you may not be too far from us. We raise both registered Dexters and Scottish Highlands (about 30 of each) and do managed intensive grazing with them moving them a couple times per day in the morning and evening. We calve year round and almost always have a little fuzzy Highland calf or two running around.


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## haypoint

Right now, crop land in the Thumb area of Michigan is selling at $8,000 to $9,000 an acre.
At least one big dairy is sending its heifer calves to Texas to be raised cheaper than in Michigan. They ship 500 a month. Been doing it awhile. Just mentioning this because different areas have different costs of production. Be sure you are in an area where raising beef cattle is less expensive than average.


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## Cliff

oregon woodsmok said:


> I think there is a limit to the number of people who will pay super premium prices for grass raised locker beef.


I think you might be surprised at the number of people who would do this. People are becoming more and more aware of the negative health implications of eating grain fed beef. Young families with children who have the disposable income are especially open to spending the money to eat more healthily.


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## Gabriel

I'm tired and just scanned this thread, so I apologize if anyone has already said what I'm about to say.

First, he needs to go find someone who is successfully doing what he wants to do and work with/for them. If he wants to be a full time farmer with no off farm income, find a farmer doing exactly that. Far too many treat it as a hobby and lifestyle, not as a living. If you can't find anything other than a part timer, do it anyway, there's still plenty he can learn... including a few things that just aren't so.  Second, read _Knowledge Rich Ranching_, by Allan Nation. One of the big points he should take away from that book is that *you don't need to buy land to farm/ranch.* If you can't afford to stock it, you can't afford to buy it. 

Go hang out at the cattle auction and get a feel for things. Be friendly, meet as many people as possible, offer to help, listen attentively when they talk. People love to be listened to and are happy to share! Learning does not always entail losing a small fortune, if we leverage the knowledge of others who've already blazed the trail. 

Research M.i.G. It doesn't cost a lot of money, it costs knowledge. Of course, that often costs money... lol! But there's plenty on the internet, including this very forum. 

I wish y'all luck.


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## oregon woodsmok

Cliff said:


> I think you might be surprised at the number of people who would do this. People are becoming more and more aware of the negative health implications of eating grain fed beef. Young families with children who have the disposable income are especially open to spending the money to eat more healthily.


80 head of cattle all at one time, and they will be ready all at the same time. People who buy locker beef buy sides or halves, so somewhere between 160 and 320 families all at the same time every year to pay super premium prices and this is in an economically depressed area.

I doubt it.

Maybe in New York City or Seattle it would be easy to find 320 families with a lot of disposable income to buy grass fed beef at super premium prices. Not in a low population area where jobs are hard to come by.

All of you who are selling grass fed beef, how many head are you selling every year?


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## ramiller5675

Most of the calves I raise go to the stockyards as either weaned calves or yearlings, but I've sold a handful of steers as beef (they get a little feed, so they aren't grass fed) and it isn't as easy as the "experts" claim.

You have the stress of getting the steer finished at the right time, finding customers, making arrangements with the butcher and customers, worrying about getting paid and not having a check bounce, and that the customer is satisfied with the price and quality of the beef.

You might make a little bit more money with direct marketing grass-fed beef, but I'm not sure if it's worth it, and I'd hate to think of selling all my cattle that way.

And, if I scaled it up the beef sales, I couldn't carry as many cow-calf pairs due to the increased grazing pressure.


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## opportunity

fffarmergirl said:


> You started with 3 and have 30 in 6 years. That's a 10 fold increase. So if he started with ten . . . . . did you make enough $ from the steers to buy the handling equipment and more cows or did you have to supplement from your personal income?
> 
> The barns, fencing, etc. are all in place and there's a big hay field . . . . he would have to get a tractor right off the bat . . . . . . .
> 
> The owner said something about keeping a minimum #, just breeding stock, through the winter months. Don't you have to raise a calf for 2 years before you can sell it for meat?


I had a really good market near Boise Idaho when I started I sold steers at a very high price. I bough cheap cows with the money. I was able to buy an old horse trailer and squize shot to work them. My husbands off farm income pays for the land, tractors and hay equipment there is no way my cattle herd can grow and pay for those things at the same time, even when I had a good market we now live in Montana and the market for grass beef is horrible to many steers to little demand. 
As for raising the beef if you are feeding them out plan on keeping them about 2 years and then hope the market is there when you need it I only retained one steer and will "buy" from myself this year the rest go to auction in the fall it's the highest price in my local market


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## Wanda

If you go with selling '''grass fed'' you still have to have plan B! If prospective customers back out on there beef purchase you still need to recoup your expense for the steer.


Be careful that you do not get so much time and money tied up that there is only one way to get it back. To purchase a steer whole and process is a very large cash outlay. Sometimes things happen to good people and they can not come up with that money all at one time.


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## PaulNKS

Can it be done. Maybe. The farmer is painting the rosiest of pictures. However, please don't let it discourage you or your son. 

Did I read that you would help buy the cattle? That would be the best start.

What we did.... we bought 40 acres. We rented land. We stocked with old, smooth-mouthed cows, buying just a few. When we ran out of room, we rented. We continued to build the scraggly herd that was as mismatched and as old as anything. We never lost a cow. Cows can (it's risky) breed, and raise calve into their late teens. I have a couple old cows that are almost 20 and have never missed breeding or raising a calf. 

We lived cheap. We raised our food. We never bought a new vehicle. We always bought used equipment at farm auctions, including fencing supplies. We spent no money that wasn't an absolute necessity. EVERY dime we could get went back into the operation. That was 20 years ago.

Our goal was to buy small farms, paying cash. Then in the future, sell them off and buy one large farm. (by the way, we both came from rural families.) Today, we have almost 400 acres in 5 small farms. The largest two farms are 160 acres and 92 acres. By the time we bought the 160, we had the cattle... and debt free. We borrowed with the note amortized on 30 years with a balloon in 15. The cattle paid it off in 10 years. We paid $600 per acre for that 160 in 1997. Today, we could sell it for an easy $2500 per acre. 

Every year, we sold any animal that didn't produce an income for that year. EVERY thing here has to pay it's own way. Today, we also have a herd of 40 goats and are about to double that. 

Neither of us work off farm. Those that do, are either have too high of a standard of living, too much debt, or can't manage money. A farm should support the family instead of the family supporting the farm. 

We keep our own bulls, breed back the cows, sell the calves at the local auction at weaning, anywhere from 600 to 750 pounds each. They are MUCH MORE profitable than just $100 each. They profit several times that.

We don't buy feed and we don't buy hay. We do our own haying. We raise no crops. Our cattle get no additional feed. They are strictly grass fed and wintered with hay. They are never dry-lotted. They stay on pasture year round. Dry lots are the best environments for bacteria and illness. We never vaccinate the cattle and don't normally lose calves or cows. 

We do deworm on a regular basis and we keep salt blocks out and mineral supplement. 

I'll address a couple other comments that have been made....

Stay away from FHA and traditional loans such as with banks. Go with USDA loans or Farm Credit (formerly called the Land Bank). If you go with someone such as Farm Credit, your son can determine his own payment plan whether monthly, every two months, twice a year, once a quarter, or annually. We opted for January 1 and June 1 for our payments on the 160. 

Dairies - there is no money in them these days.
Beef - is very profitable and WILL support a family if you don't have to pay for the land and the cattle while building the herd.

There really are no grants from the government for any farm payments. However, there are many different cost-sharing programs and conservation payments. One good one is EQIP. You can google it. They did pay us $214 per acre for brush management. That can add up. They are also about to replace the overflow tubes in a couple ponds and put in gravity frost-free waterers on a cost sharing basis. They are also going to pay for a big chunk of the cross-fencing costs. 

When you farm/ranch, the first thing you learn is to do NOTHING without checking for subsidies or cost sharing before you do anything.... frost free waterers, feedlot, fencing, pond construction/repair, brush management, revitalization of pastures, clearing timber, noxious weed control, etc.... 

I think if your son talks to local cattlemen, he will find that will be more than happy to pass on their knowledge and experience. Many would even call him to come help work cattle with vaccinations, deworming, castrating, etc., and show him how and allow him to learn by doing. I know if he was closer, I'd sure let him learn here.... lol

Back to our plan. The plan for us was to sell our smaller farms to buy bigger farms. Since we started our plan, our farms total worth has quadrupled in 20 years. The last 2 to 3 years, land has been soaring. So, we know that our farms will double in value again in less than 10 years. So, we've decided to hold off selling. We'll use half of them as collateral for the $600K to $700K that we need to buy the new bigger farm. We'll rent the 5 small farms. That combined with the revenues from the cattle will make the payments and support us and we are very conservative in our plans. You have to budget as conservatively as possible knowing that with economies, livestock, etc., there will be unexpected expenses pop up.

In case you don't know, we are in the rolling hills of NE Kansas. Our annual average rainfall is 42" (not this year). 

So, the only way I can see it working for your son is if he is "gifted" with his starting seed stock. 

We know that black and black/baldy calves fetch the highest prices at auction. But, we don't care for black. So, we run Hereford cows and black bulls. 

Good luck. I hope your son finds a way to make it work.

By the way, why is so much farmland for sale? Because kids don't want to farm. Why? Because they either don't like the work, or they prefer the glitz and glitter of city living.... 

By the way, family farms are not declining. They are on the rise. The largest growing sector in agriculture are the small farms. In the US, over 50% of the gross revenues in ag come from farms that gross $10K or less per year and that sector is growing, not declining. Also, women make 80% of the decisions on family farms today and that number is still growing. 

If you have any questions or want to PM me, I'll be glad to offer any suggestions I can.

The bottom line, yes you can make a decent living from beef cattle, but it won't be from keeping the calves until they are 2 years old. You will have to sell them as weanlings. You can make more profit that way. It frees up more resources such as grass/hay, etc. for more cows that are producing calves.


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## Dreamfarm

Inspiring and informative post Paulnks. Where else can I look for cost share programs besides the NRCS and EQIP?


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## PaulNKS

Dreamfarm said:


> Inspiring and informative post Paulnks. Where else can I look for cost share programs besides the NRCS and EQIP?


Go into your local Farm Service Agency office. They have brochures and all the info on all the programs available. Many of the programs may be funded federally but, are administered on the state level. They will be available at the Farm Service Agency office, too.


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## Dreamfarm

I know this is a dumb question but is the Farm Service Agency different from the NRCS?


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## PaulNKS

Dreamfarm said:


> I know this is a dumb question but is the Farm Service Agency different from the NRCS?


The Farm Service Agency is the USDA and NRCS is part of the USDA.


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## bigmudder77

You can make money in it but you have to know what your doing or have someone with big pockets so to say paying your way id start small spend money on some equipment rent land see if its your thing cause if you have 10 cows in under 10 acres of grass are you gonna use hay to feed them? What about storage of the hay? What happens when your out of hay and grass cause you didnt know how much they would eat? What about bedding? What about winter? What about feed storage? 

Id love to do it if i had extra money id start small and work the way up what happens if 2 or so years he gets tired of it are you able to do it all? A farm and working toward your goal is the hardest part sure people can make it look easy to make money with a farm but you gotta be all in or all out cause if your half and half your never gonna make it (meaning you only farm when you want to or if your bored and want to sit on a tractor for a while) i have seen alot of different people and watched alot of farms go under because they didnt make money my family included they made the mistake of helping everyone out before they worried about there farm and over spent to where they were making less than $4 an hour and some days made less than $4 a day and milked over 100 cows and had over 1000 acres 

I didnt read all this post so sorry about that 

But my advice like many start small and work up or get out before your so sunk you cant even sell out to break even. And dont spend more than your making at least not for too many years in a row it will just be harder to get out if you have to 

I wish you luck if you do it but always have a back up plan


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## spud

Over thirty years ago I had the same desires and lived on a farm in rural Wisconsin for about 9 months. Loved doing farm work but it never panned out. I don't think farmers think enough about recruiting a younger generation that wants to farm. When their own kids leave and don't come back, most don't look into alternatives in taking over the process. Most feel this obligation that the land value(cash sale of it) belongs to their kids after it is sold. Many even snub their own kid (the one that stayed) by splitting the value of the property among all their kids even if only one kept it going. 

The area that you live in also plays a part, in the UP, I might look beefalo or cross between yak and cattle, breads that are more hardy the typical cattle.

Reading books like "folk's this ain't normal" is also a real eye opener of how big gov and big ag has screwed over the little guy.

I still have that dream of raising cattle or beefalo or whatever it may be, just ten head or so and slaughtering a few myself for family and friends, was a meat cutter for a while. 

I really like the advice of starting small and keeping debt down, seems to makes the most sense. 

Just a thought, why does this farmer think his land is so valuable when so many are being foreclosed on around him?


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## arnie

if you can grow your own feed and pasture 
if you have the tractor and equipment and can keep it working most farmers are good mecanics
if you can get good stock and have luck and they don't get sick most farmers have graduated from the vetinary school of hard knocks . if it rains on time and opra doe'nt tell the world beefs poisin . but buy starting small and growing and learning theres no reasonit can't be done people are doing it well right now .but like they say if it was really easy every onewould be doing it. cows are slow to mature and then they just have one calf ayear so its long time commitment. beef prices are hi:clap:gh now


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## unregistered41671

ffarmergirl, anything happened? Any decisions made?


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## unregistered168043

fffarmergirl said:


> He's only 21 - in sixteen years he'll be 37 . . . . . that would be good . . . . . .
> 
> The guy I was talking to said that the payment amounts on those loans are very low and easy to make. He said he'd probably never get the farm paid off "but what does it matter?" Maybe his kids would get it paid off some day.


Like you say, getting the farm 'paid off' doesn't matter. It will be paid off and capital costs + appreciation gained when it is sold. Calculate profit as operational expenses - income. NOT capital cost + operational cost - expenses, since the money is being invested in a store of value ( land ), not lost or "spent".


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