# Traffic at HT way down since last summer



## painterswife

I have been following the stats for the website. Traffic has gone down 32 percent since last August. It was climbing before that.


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## hunter63

Two forums I used to be on have gone away completely......and another one dying.

Time are a-changing.....


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## no really

I still do lots of reading in various portions of the forum but don't post much anymore. A couple of my favorites are pretty much dead.


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## HTAdmin

painterswife said:


> I have been following the stats for the website. Traffic has gone down 32 percent since last August. It was climbing before that.


What are you using that tells you that?


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## painterswife

I check in every once in a while on different webstat pages.

It is quite apparent to regulars the drop off in the last 6 months.


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## Wanda

I think a lot of it is Facebook. I think it is almost an addiction for a lot of people anymore.


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## painterswife

I don't. The knowledge here brings people here. They stay and visit everyday because of the connections and friends they make. Even if they are dysfunctional friendships.  We are losing those connections. They are actually easier to keep here because threads are easier to read then the conversations on Facebook that keep disapearing off the page . That is my experience.


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## hunter63

I don't need the drama and time spent to keep track of facebook....so don't do it.
Actually had a family member post Christmas pictures on faceboox....but you had to be their group to see them......
Too bad....For them...... I don't care. 
Don't twit either.


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## HTAdmin

FB has hurt us quite a bit. Groups are were people want to hang out it seems.


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## MichaelZ

I think FB has fallen off a lot in the last few years. It has gotten so a few people flood your timeline with their stuff, so then you must unfollow them, just to see other posts, nothing personal. Pretty soon all I am seeing on FB are mostly promoted posts. And for a source of info, FB offers nothing. But it does offer a lot of junk news. So it is not even comparable to HT. 

If I have a question about something I post it here or search online (but not facebook!).


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## chaossmurf

I love this site myself --theres a few suggestions id make to make it better in my opinion ---but overall this is awome --I hang out here more than I even play my video game these last few months


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## Lisa in WA

MichaelZ said:


> I think FB has fallen off a lot in the last few years. It has gotten so a few people flood your timeline with their stuff, so then you must unfollow them, just to see other posts, nothing personal. Pretty soon all I am seeing on FB are mostly promoted posts. And for a source of info, FB offers nothing. But it does offer a lot of junk news. So it is not even comparable to HT.
> 
> If I have a question about something I post it here or search online (but not facebook!).



Uh no. Facebook is booming and so is it's stock.


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## Lisa in WA

I love facebook because it makes keeping up with farflung family and friends easy. Their messaging system is convenient too.

Ive been here for a good long time but my life has changed from homesteading in our cabin on the river in northern Idaho to more of a city life with the cabin as a kind of summer place. I still come here because of habit probably...and keeping up with people I've "known" for a long time here. Though so many are gone. 
I would have enjoyed more political discussion but there are not many people in the dark room and almost all are completely polarized politically so there really is no point in arguing and no room for discussion so i left the DR voluntarily.

I'll keep checking in and posting where I have something to add.


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## arabian knight

I also keep in touch with friends that I have made throughout the places I have lived. FB is going strong and always will. In fact I just friended a person I knew for 20 years, he moved and now we are back in touch once again. Cool. My friends that I moved to AZ with have moved several times since we moved since AZ. They post pictures of the mules, and I post my pics of my mini's etc. Someday I will go see them in NM. Maybe even think on moving their myself, All Thanks to FB, and the constant postings back and forth. Still in touch with co-workers that I made friends with while working in AZ., all thanks to FB. And that has been over 20 years ago since I was in AZ. Nice to keep in touch with them through FB.


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## AmericanStand

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I still come here because of habit probably...and keeping up with people I've "known" for a long time here. Though so many are gone.
> I would have enjoyed more political discussion but there are not many people in the dark room and almost all are completely polarized politically so there really is no point in arguing and no room for discussion so i left the DR voluntarily.
> .


 I so very much agree


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## stanb999

IMHO too many intrusive adds without an ad blocker. So much so that it is unreadable on a tablet or phone outside of the app. And the app is cumbersome to post with. Monetization while important in social media to keep the lights on.. can ruin the experience. So I ad-block vigorous and only comment regularly when using a computer.


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## Heritagefarm

painterswife said:


> I don't. The knowledge here brings people here. They stay and visit everyday because of the connections and friends they make. Even if they are dysfunctional friendships.  We are losing those connections. They are actually easier to keep here because threads are easier to read then the conversations on Facebook that keep disapearing off the page . That is my experience.


FB is almost a neurotoxic... it's addicting and it latches onto you at the neurological level. At college, I will actually see people using FB while in class - the really dumb ones text and message each other while in class. I check it too, but I know I'm addicted, and I don't check it during class like many do. 

I find FB annoying because I really don't like chit chat. I hate it, actually. 

I think the election attracted a lot of people. That's what most of the conversation was about, and it caused the formation of the Dark Room because the material got so heated and opinionated and polarized. It's pretty calm again, almost too calm, probably doesn't really need the invisibility cloak anymore.

But it's kind of disappointing that our main thing is the election. Are we really so reality-TV wired that the elections are basically just a big entertainment bin? *aghast look*


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## Rectifier

Yep, this place is awful quiet these days. I don't have time to waste on FB so I haven't logged in in years. Really, since I got married I suppose, didn't need it any more 

I almost entirely post in Sheep these days, probably because my life mostly revolves around said wooly critters. But for what used to be one of the busiest subforums there isn't even all that much sheep talk. Sometimes I feel I've grown out of this place as I'm not just a homesteader anymore, but have become a serious commercial producer. I still have that homestead/small farm attitude though, and I like to hang around and share some of the knowledge I've gained over the years. Unfortunately not many people are asking questions these days, and when they do I feel I know exactly who is going to reply, as there are only a few posters really active here now.

To be honest I spend most of my "forums" time on Reddit these days.


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## Declan

MichaelZ said:


> I think FB has fallen off a lot in the last few years. It has gotten so a few people flood your timeline with their stuff, so then you must unfollow them, just to see other posts, nothing personal. Pretty soon all I am seeing on FB are mostly promoted posts. And for a source of info, FB offers nothing. But it does offer a lot of junk news. So it is not even comparable to HT.
> 
> If I have a question about something I post it here or search online (but not facebook!).


That has something to do with their new follow feature. If you respond to someone, you then "follow" them and all their stuff starts taking priority over the people you don't respond to or interact with on their site much. It is really quite annoying. 

I check my FB a couple times a day but am seldom on there more than 5-10 minutes a day. I mostly check to see if anybody has died or I have gotten any PM's as most of the conversations people want to have with me are private ones. I toy with just deactivating my account but then something happens that keeps me there, like someone dying.


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## Lisa in WA

Declan said:


> That has something to do with their new follow feature. If you respond to someone, you then "follow" them and all their stuff starts taking priority over the people you don't respond to or interact with on their site much. It is really quite annoying.
> 
> I check my FB a couple times a day but am seldom on there more than 5-10 minutes a day. I mostly check to see if anybody has died or I have gotten any PM's as most of the conversations people want to have with me are private ones. I toy with just deactivating my account but then something happens that keeps me there, like someone dying.


You can follow or unfollow anyone. It's a choice.


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## no really

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> You can follow or unfollow anyone. It's a choice.


Is there a way to not be searchable on FB?


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## oneraddad

It's not that difficult to figure out what happened here, but I'll give you a clue. It has nothing to do with FB.


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## Lisa in WA

no really said:


> Is there a way to not be searchable on FB?


Yes, there is. Can't tell you how off the top of my head but it's part of the privacy and security options


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## no really

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Yes, there is. Can't tell you how off the top of my head but it's part of the privacy and security options


Thanks! Will do some checking.


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## Grandmotherbear

About 5 or 10years ago the old HT/CSF site went down for about 3 weeks. It would come up for an hour then go down again. Melissa shepherded the formation of the" Homesteading" group on FB during that time period. Since those first years the joinees have never been seen or heard of on either this or the newer forum. It has taken a life onto itself.
I really need to check FB 3x daily because I get so many danged feeds. You could say I have eclectic interests. I get so upset to find that I didn't have time to do the background read on an interesting headline and after scrolling thru everything I come back and its disappeared off. Overnight, you know when you first get on the morning there's that little number telling you how many unread headlines you have? It used to be in the 40s, now it's in the 70s to 90s for me. I just can't keep up. Gadjitz and Grommets and Bloom County become things I have to remember to travel to on their home pages to get caught up, even tho my info shows I am still "following"...But I don't see their new posts on MY pages anymore.


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## Lisa in WA

Grandmotherbear said:


> About 5 or 10years ago the old HT/CSF site went down for about 3 weeks. It would come up for an hour then go down again. Melissa shepherded the formation of the" Homesteading" group on FB during that time period. Since those first years the joinees have never been seen or heard of on either this or the newer forum. It has taken a life onto itself.
> I really need to check FB 3x daily because I get so many danged feeds. You could say I have eclectic interests. I get so upset to find that I didn't have time to do the background read on an interesting headline and after scrolling thru everything I come back and its disappeared off. Overnight, you know when you first get on the morning there's that little number telling you how many unread headlines you have? It used to be in the 40s, now it's in the 70s to 90s for me. I just can't keep up. Gadjitz and Grommets and Bloom County become things I have to remember to travel to on their home pages to get caught up, even tho my info shows I am still "following"...But I don't see their new posts on MY pages anymore.


You need to start liking their posts even if you're following them to keep getting the new posts.


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## Heritagefarm

oneraddad said:


> It's not that difficult to figure out what happened here, but I'll give you a clue. It has nothing to do with FB.


I must be unusually daft today...


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## oneraddad

Heritagefarm said:


> I must be unusually daft today...




I remember one post you made about a kitchen and around another 12,000 BS posts. Hope that helps.


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## Heritagefarm

oneraddad said:


> I remember one post you made about a kitchen and around another 12,000 BS posts. Hope that helps.


Well, you don't get around too much.


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## arabian knight

oneraddad said:


> It's not that difficult to figure out what happened here, but I'll give you a clue. It has nothing to do with FB.


 Ya we know why don't we? And it sure isn't FB. And it don't take a rocket scientists to know how and why this places traffic has gone down.~


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## ShannonR

oneraddad said:


> It's not that difficult to figure out what happened here, but I'll give you a clue. It has nothing to do with FB.


I agree. I don't use Facebook at all, haven't in a couple of years now...so FB has zero to do with it for me. The forum and the management of it has changed so drastically since I joined this site! It seems to me also, that alot of BS is tolerated here that wasn't before. .


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## Lisa in WA

ShannonR said:


> I agree. I don't use Facebook at all, haven't in a couple of years now...so FB has zero to do with it for me. The forum and the management of it has changed so drastically since I joined this site! It seems to me also, that alot of BS is tolerated here that wasn't before. .


Really?
What is tolerated here now that wasn't before unless you're in the Dark Room?

I like that for the most part, the moderating is unbiased. It sure didn't used to be.


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## Miss Kay

I used to be very active here until the whole break up when the owners were playing games - reposting on other sites without permission. Then when some of us complained, our posts were deleted. Lots of us pulled out. So, after all these months I came back due to surgery and too many hours in bed with nothing to do and discovered this is only a shell of what it used to be. I dropped in on the general chat and the rules say you can't debate anything. Well, you take that away and there's not much left. I visited the families section and if not for Rock, there'd be no new posts. I miss the old site and will check back from time to time to see if it has been resurrected.


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## GunMonkeyIntl

Heritagefarm said:


> oneraddad said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not that difficult to figure out what happened here, but I'll give you a clue. It has nothing to do with FB.
> 
> 
> 
> I must be unusually daft today...
Click to expand...

Daft? Naw.
But, I know somebody that is...


Austin said:


> painterswife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been following the stats for the website. Traffic has gone down 32 percent since last August. It was climbing before that.
> 
> 
> 
> What are you using that tells you that?
Click to expand...




Austin said:


> FB has hurt us quite a bit. Groups are were people want to hang out it seems.


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## AmericanStand

It probably doesn't help that this site is used a example of how NOT to manage a site on other websites. 
One of those mistakes that probably will take years to recover from.
Personally I think there is to much in the darkroom and not enough in general. 
But that never was what drove this site , perhaps interest in homesteading is simply dropping off.


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## geo in mi

AmericanStand said:


> It probably doesn't help that this site is used a example of how NOT to manage a site on other websites.
> One of those mistakes that probably will take years to recover from.
> Personally I think there is to much in the darkroom and not enough in general.
> But that never was what drove this site , perhaps interest in homesteading is simply dropping off.[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I think you're right. The word "homesteading" has never been very well defined, so a lot of people on the fringes may have moved on. A somewhat better economy may have led to that. Lots of others read, but don't post, if they are actually engaged in homesteading--that is, sustaining themselves on their own land--and don't need many questions answered at this point. You can buy a couple of acres and do a little bit, but once you realize you are buying just as much of your food as ever....and you still have to work in town, what's the use? The most interesting thread I've seen in a long time was the one by the "90 percenters.".... Plus, I get discouraged by those who just want to turn a good discussion into an argument.
> 
> As far as FB goes, I signed up so I could get pictures of my grandkids, as my kids stopped using film. Now I get pictures of the friends of their friends and wonder, "Who the heck are they and why are they showing up on my screen? Then there are pictures of gooey casseroles or kitty kats--or advertising like billboards going down a New Hampshire Autumn scenic tour...Bleaaach!
> 
> 
> 
> geo


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## Clem

People used to come to HT because you could find dozens of useful, informative posts every day, and lots of threads started by dedicated folks, explaining the details of what they were doing, and why. One expanded into the giant composting thread. Others about different aspects of gardening.

You just don't see much of that anymore.

There used to be a lot of camaraderie at HT. Not so much anymore.

Many people have divided themselves into political camps, not just here, but everywhere on the internet, and it's expanded into real life. As a result, Joe from Kokomo won't ask, or trust an answer from, or even consider talking to Bo from Kalamazoo.

That's what's happened here.

To compound the problem, some moderators on some subforums have let their political bias influence both their moderation and lack of such.

Then, there is a small handful of posters who insist on just bickering about everything. That, along with the tendency to google something instead of posting actual first hand experience. When someone asks, on the internet, "how do you do this?", by the fact that they're on the same internet you are implies they also have access to google. But, some posters will google, post, then argue their point of view, although they clearly had no personal experience to add.

When you see dozens of posts by the same poster in a thread that is all argument, without the possibility of compromise..... there's one of the reasons HT is slipping. And when moderators are allowed to troll, it's just sad.


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## painterswife

One reason that traffic is way down on HT is the hiding of the dark forum. It no longer counts towards post counts. This last year so much of peoples on line time has been focused on politics. Many read even if they did not post in that forum. It shut off a large group of readers that never logged in.

Reading posts is way down on HT, not just posting. Look at other sites political subforums. They are going gang busters. Hiding an important part of our current world view means readers go to forums that cover more topics.


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## HTAdmin

I would still like to see the metrics on posting you guys seem to have access too.


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## Clem

Maybe politics is a big reason to go to homestead forums for some folks. That's well and good. But for me, I don't want that in every aspect of my life. That's why I'm basically a hermit, at the end of the road, with no company. My life is too busy already. And arguing, although important to some, just strikes me as stupid. I don't understand why anybody feels a need to state their view a dozen times in one thread. 

Of course, my opinion is mine, and everybody is entitled to their own. I know, and stated, exactly why I don't spend much time here, and why the dozens of people who I've communicated with in PM's, emails, phone calls, and live in person, have told me. Pettiness is just not conducive to a good homesteading forum. 

I sort of imagine the forum itself could do better if they were to drop the subforums that concern themselves with homesteading, and focus on politics, while keeping the name. That way, there would be no reason for people like me, and the countless folks who feel the same, to even bother interfere with the mind-numbing bickering that passes itself as politics. Unless the dark room here is miles and miles above every single news/politics website I've ever once clicked on.


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## GunMonkeyIntl

It looks as if the sole strategy employed to bring up posts counts, after all the mis-steps of the new administration, was to invite back several previously-banned members (who may have been rightfully or wrongfully banned), who, by large part, simply start a bunch of bicker-worthy threads, and drag other topics down into useless bickering.

Several of these folks were also seemingly given more latitude in what they're allowed to say, due, possibly, in part to the spates of biased moderation. This inevitably caused many posters to throw up their hands and participate less or leave altogether.

Unfortunately for the forum's sake, the most prolific of the recalled-and-blessed posters seem to hang out almost exclusively in the Dark Room (previous pot-stirrers camping next to the pot; who'd a thunk it?), which doesn't do anything to help statistics or Search Engine results.

I don't think the old Politics section was what brought people to the site in the first place. Rather, it was the volume and quality of the posts in the homesteading-related sections. Once members found it, they may have come back more frequently to participate in the fray, but it's not what got them here to start with.

The Dark Room can't do much to bolster the member count here, but I think it's been shown that the way it is run can harm those numbers.


Couple all that with the fact that the administration apparently thinks that the popularity of Facebook is to blame, and I think we all know it's never coming back.


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## Lisa in WA

Clem said:


> People used to come to HT because you could find dozens of useful, informative posts every day, and lots of threads started by dedicated folks, explaining the details of what they were doing, and why. One expanded into the giant composting thread. Others about different aspects of gardening.
> 
> You just don't see much of that anymore.
> 
> There used to be a lot of camaraderie at HT. Not so much anymore.
> 
> Many people have divided themselves into political camps, not just here, but everywhere on the internet, and it's expanded into real life. As a result, Joe from Kokomo won't ask, or trust an answer from, or even consider talking to Bo from Kalamazoo.
> 
> That's what's happened here.
> 
> To compound the problem, some moderators on some subforums have let their political bias influence both their moderation and lack of such.
> 
> Then, there is a small handful of posters who insist on just bickering about everything. That, along with the tendency to google something instead of posting actual first hand experience. When someone asks, on the internet, "how do you do this?", by the fact that they're on the same internet you are implies they also have access to google. But, some posters will google, post, then argue their point of view, although they clearly had no personal experience to add.
> 
> When you see dozens of posts by the same poster in a thread that is all argument, without the possibility of compromise..... there's one of the reasons HT is slipping. And when moderators are allowed to troll, it's just sad.


Yes, since I'm out of the Dark Room I'd nearly forgotten the trolling moderator. It does make me not want to post in the actual forum that he moderates. I don't know if there is a real shortage of people willing to moderate or not but he is a disgrace and a real black eye to HT.


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## painterswife

Clem, you don't have to read what you don't want to. I don't visit the gun forums. Yet if I needed an answer concerning guns it would be right there on my favourite forum. No need to go somewhere else.


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## painterswife

Austin said:


> I would still like to see the metrics on posting you guys seem to have access too.


Google it Austin. I am sure you also have stats at your finger tips. You did buy and sell this site and those stats would have helped you value it. Or search HT. It has been documented several times over the years what this website has been worth at different times because it kept getting sold. This site used to be ranked at a value of over $150,000.00 but it is now way under $100,000.00.


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## oneraddad

painterswife said:


> Clem, you don't have to read what you don't want to. I don't visit the gun forums. Yet if I needed an answer concerning guns it would be right there on my favourite forum. No need to go somewhere else.



BINGO !!!

"If you don't like what i write, don't read it" .... So people stopped reading and left.


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## painterswife

oneraddad said:


> BINGO !!!
> 
> "If you don't like what i write, don't read it" .... So people stopped reading and left.


That is one part of the problem. The other is they made it difficult for people to read what they use to be able to read with out signing in or joining.


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## Clem

painterswife said:


> Clem, you don't have to read what you don't want to. I don't visit the gun forums. Yet if I needed an answer concerning guns it would be right there on my favourite forum. No need to go somewhere else.


Maybe you should visit the gun forum. Because, in it, you will find very specifically politic-related posts. The politics is not restricted to the politics forum. You've either misconstrued what I said, or I'm no longer capable of lucid expression. Maybe both.


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## Heritagefarm

One problem is the anonymity that forum allows people to engage in any level of quasi-intellectual argumetive baiting without repercussion to themselves in real life. We see that with Twitter, FB, and just about all forums in existence. People like to troll. It gives them a power rush to be able to insult someone with impunity, without any physical worry to their body. 

Add that to a populous that feels, increasingly, that whatever view and opinion someone has, they are entitled to. It's a form of individual moral relativism turned into a religion and possibly coupled with our "ultra nice" personality ethic. Therefore, what I am saying is that people are so immature in their level of belief and logic that any attack to their belief results in an intense knee-jerk reaction as they realize an assault to something that they have always considered near and dear. 

In schools and in the real world, we have taught people to stay true to their beliefs and convictions. Maybe some of that is good, but for the most part it is highly destructive. Instead of people, here, on forums, and in real life, being able and willing to listen to each other and form new, revised opinions about themselves, each other and the world, people automatically resort to ad hominem attacks and defensive name calling. Because we have done such a poor job of educating people to become effective conversationalists, we have generations of people with serious logical flaws that are always readily apparent to those educated to see them, but not to those who hold them.

As a result, as soon as any normal conversation takes place, people start talking, then someone questions something, someone gets their feelings hurt, and the whole thread goes to pot.

We have a serious obligation to be raising the next generation with hefty logical, self examination and critical thinking skills. Unfortunately, it looks like the next generation will be even more about the "feels" than any of the previous ones. If so, we may well be doomed, in more ways than just not being able to operate effective online discussions.


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## painterswife

Heritagefarm said:


> One problem is the anonymity that forum allows people to engage in any level of quasi-intellectual argumetive baiting without repercussion to themselves in real life. We see that with Twitter, FB, and just about all forums in existence. People like to troll. It gives them a power rush to be able to insult someone with impunity, without any physical worry to their body.
> 
> Add that to a populous that feels, increasingly, that whatever view and opinion someone has, they are entitled to. It's a form of individual moral relativism turned into a religion and possibly coupled with our "ultra nice" personality ethic. Therefore, what I am saying is that people are so immature in their level of belief and logic that any attack to their belief results in an intense knee-jerk reaction as they realize an assault to something that they have always considered near and dear.
> 
> In schools and in the real world, we have taught people to stay true to their beliefs and convictions. Maybe some of that is good, but for the most part it is highly destructive. Instead of people, here, on forums, and in real life, being able and willing to listen to each other and form new, revised opinions about themselves, each other and the world, people automatically resort to ad hominem attacks and defensive name calling. Because we have done such a poor job of educating people to become effective conversationalists, we have generations of people with serious logical flaws that are always readily apparent to those educated to see them, but not to those who hold them.
> 
> As a result, as soon as any normal conversation takes place, people start talking, then someone questions something, someone gets their feelings hurt, and the whole thread goes to pot.
> 
> We have a serious obligation to be raising the next generation with hefty logical, self examination and critical thinking skills. Unfortunately, it looks like the next generation will be even more about the "feels" than any of the previous ones. If so, we may well be doomed, in more ways than just not being able to operate effective online discussions.


Nah. HT became a huge site with thousands of people as anonymous as they wanted to be.


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## Heritagefarm

painterswife said:


> Nah. HT became a huge site with thousands of people as anonymous as they wanted to be.


Are less people homesteading?


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## painterswife

Heritagefarm said:


> Are less people homesteading?


Homesteading goes in cycles. So maybe yes. Maybe it is this site has lost some off it "community" feel. I know that I came here originally because I wanted chickens. I came back because it had so much other info. I stayed because of the people. We have had a few shake ups and lost some of that community. We have lost a lot of people who have passed over the years as well. The other sites are not going gang busters either. I am hoping it is a cycle and that it will rebuild. Maybe not with the old members but with new ones that will help to shape the new community feel.


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## Bearfootfarm

Clem said:


> To compound the problem, some moderators on some subforums have let their political bias influence both their moderation and lack of such.


LOL
You weren't here when that was *really* a problem.


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## painterswife

Bearfootfarm said:


> LOL
> You weren't here when that was *really* a problem.


Yes, he was


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## stanb999

I tell you IMHO the issue.

Long term posters who actually homestead and do these sorts of things have it forced in our faces that on this site our words are the commodity and it's for sale.. 

Back in the day it was Countryside Mag. extension.. It was so good we bought the Magazine. 
Then Chuck took over and ran it. He did it because he was asked and it needed to be done. Giving free content was an obligation..
Then the crap started...
Now they expect posters to make essays. If was going to share that much knowledge I'd sell it on amazon.

As for site statistics... google


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## Cabin Fever

My 2¢ from someone who has been here since before HT began. HT has lost much its sense of the camaraderie and friendship.I know what I;m talking about when I say "friendship." Over the years, my wife and I have hosted many HT members in our home, as well as, visited many on our travels. To us, quite a few HT friends are more, much more, than a name on a computer screen.

It's not much "fun" coming here anymore since many of our friends and most of the old-timers have left (and several have died).

We do keep in touch with our long-time HT friends on Facebook and the camaraderie continues there.....


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## ceresone

it has definetly lost that feel CF, i read a post this morning, a person who had only a few posts, asked a question, several answered nicely, and he/she snapped back very rudely. that that wasnt the question. some of the old timers have a attitude that just dosent sit well with me. still, there are members on here that i value very much, and i keep coming back--even if i dont like the changes.


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## Cabin Fever

ceresone said:


> it has definetly lost that feel CF, i read a post this morning, a person who had only a few posts, asked a question, several answered nicely, and he/she snapped back very rudely. that that wasnt the question. some of the old timers have a attitude that just dosent sit well with me. still, there are members on here that i value very much, and i keep coming back--even if i dont like the changes.


I hear you. I keep coming back, too. Kinda like visiting the old neighborhood I grew up in, hoping to see the familiar faces that I grew up with. But, it has changed to the point where I feel like a stranger.


----------



## Cabin Fever

Did anyone else notice what's missing from the HT logo at the top of the page?

It no longer states, "Neighborly Help and Friendly Advice."


----------



## Bearfootfarm

painterswife said:


> Yes, he was


I don't believe it's all been in the past year.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> The Dark Room can't do much to bolster the member count here, but I think *it's been shown* that the way it is run can harm those numbers.


Since most left here before the Dark Rooms existed, I don't think anything has been "shown" regarding it's effects. 
The majority left before those previously banned were allowed to return, so that theory is also flawed.

Those who think the rest of the board needs more traffic should be posting there more often instead of just always complaining about what others do.


----------



## mnn2501

Heritagefarm said:


> One problem is the anonymity that forum allows people to engage in any level of quasi-intellectual argumetive baiting without repercussion to themselves in real life. We see that with Twitter, FB, and just about all forums in existence. People like to troll. It gives them a power rush to be able to insult someone with impunity, without any physical worry to their body.
> 
> Add that to a populous that feels, increasingly, that whatever view and opinion someone has, they are entitled to. It's a form of individual moral relativism turned into a religion and possibly coupled with our "ultra nice" personality ethic. Therefore, what I am saying is that people are so immature in their level of belief and logic that any attack to their belief results in an intense knee-jerk reaction as they realize an assault to something that they have always considered near and dear.
> 
> In schools and in the real world, we have taught people to stay true to their beliefs and convictions. Maybe some of that is good, but for the most part it is highly destructive. Instead of people, here, on forums, and in real life, being able and willing to listen to each other and form new, revised opinions about themselves, each other and the world, people automatically resort to ad hominem attacks and defensive name calling. Because we have done such a poor job of educating people to become effective conversationalists, we have generations of people with serious logical flaws that are always readily apparent to those educated to see them, but not to those who hold them.
> 
> As a result, as soon as any normal conversation takes place, people start talking, then someone questions something, someone gets their feelings hurt, and the whole thread goes to pot.
> 
> We have a serious obligation to be raising the next generation with hefty logical, self examination and critical thinking skills. Unfortunately, it looks like the next generation will be even more about the "feels" than any of the previous ones. If so, we may well be doomed, in more ways than just not being able to operate effective online discussions.


Theres the pot calling the kettle black.

There are 3 or 4 prolific posters that have pretty much ruined this board.


----------



## mnn2501

Bearfootfarm said:


> Those who think the rest of the board needs more traffic should be posting there more often instead of just always complaining about what others do.


However, sometimes you just get sick of the stuff 3-4 posters pull. 
Back in the day it was a great board, since the latest owners took over, its been lousy.


----------



## Heritagefarm

mnn2501 said:


> Theres the pot calling the kettle black.
> 
> There are 3 or 4 prolific posters that have pretty much ruined this board.


Yeah, but they're easy to ignore.



mnn2501 said:


> However, sometimes you just get sick of the stuff 3-4 posters pull.
> Back in the day it was a great board, since the latest owners took over, its been lousy.


It can't be that bad - a lot of forums would ban you just for saying that.


----------



## Wanda

I find that a lot of times in life, you will find just exactly what you are looking for. If you come here looking for a bad experience you will most definitely find one!


----------



## mnn2501

Heritagefarm said:


> Yeah, but they're easy to ignore.


Not when they apparently sit at their computers most of the day and monopolize most threads with their liberal anti-religion rants. 



Heritagefarm said:


> It can't be that bad - a lot of forums would ban you just for saying that.


Probably why I don't post on those boards


----------



## arabian knight

And that right there has been the downfall of this ONCE wonderful board. You turn away from The Almighty and THIS is the results. In plain sight so everyone can see just what it causes. People ran away and did not turn around even once to see what happened. And others just Quit posting with such crap that is happening to this once family oriented values with Christian backgrounds. Now certain ones post their hearts out with Anti this and anti that even posting 5 posts in one forum to slam Christians. And getting a thrill out of it.
Nope not any more is this a family friendly board, and the place soon will be a small spot on the internet that it once was. And it is NOT because of FB either. Open ones eyes instead of letting others whine cry and then win over the board. THINK about it. Sure wish it would go BACK too the Good Old Days of old.


----------



## Heritagefarm

mnn2501 said:


> Not when they apparently sit at their computers most of the day and monopolize most threads with their liberal anti-religion rants.
> 
> 
> Probably why I don't post on those boards


Well, if that's the direction the thread floats, that's where it floats. If religion comes up, it's fair game for both sides. If it's economics, again fair game. All sides should be given a look in a debate.


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## How Do I

My website stats are always much higher than what stat sites report. Just sayin'.


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## mnn2501

Heritagefarm said:


> Well, if that's the direction the thread floats, that's where it floats. If religion comes up, it's fair game for both sides. If it's economics, again fair game. All sides should be given a look in a debate.


Given a look - fine ..... monopolize the entire board as has been done by 3-4 posters? No


----------



## Heritagefarm

mnn2501 said:


> Given a look - fine ..... monopolize the entire board as has been done by 3-4 posters? No


But that happens on every board. There are a few supremely bored posters who rack up tens of thousands of posts while posts everyone else just chimes in when they have something to say. But is there anything wrong with that?


----------



## mnn2501

Heritagefarm said:


> But that happens on every board. There are a few supremely bored posters who rack up tens of thousands of posts while posts everyone else just chimes in when they have something to say. But is there anything wrong with that?


I would suggest trying Real Life for a while.


----------



## Heritagefarm

mnn2501 said:


> I would suggest trying Real Life for a while.


What is this statement supposed to mean? That posting on forums too much is a waste of time? Watching too many TV shows and sitting for hours on end on the front porch is a waste of time, too.


----------



## painterswife

mnn2501 said:


> Given a look - fine ..... monopolize the entire board as has been done by 3-4 posters? No


You have more posts in less time than I do. You can ignore any poster you want and just read what you want. You are in the drivers seat so if you think others monopolize a thread it is all in your hands to read or ignore.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

mnn2501 said:


> However, sometimes you just get sick of the stuff 3-4 posters pull.
> Back in the day it was a great board, since the latest owners took over, its been lousy.


There's a handy ignore feature so no one has to read anything they don't want to.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

arabian knight said:


> Sure wish it would go BACK too the Good Old Days of old.


Here's the place you're looking for:
http://homesteadingfamilies.proboards.com/


----------



## hunter63

Hummmm I'm having flashbacks to why I just quit stopping by.......

Where are the good old days....of first post
"Hi, I'm a HS dropout with 3 kids to feed....where does one get one of these "Homesteads" everyone is talking about?"


----------



## Steve in PA

When I signed up it was for the Gardening section. I learned a lot from one prolific poster there that used to share seeds and advice. I got busy at work and didn't spend much time online. When I came back I found that poster had banned for some chicken poop reason. OK, fine this is the internet people get banned all the time.

After that the general quality of posts and discussion fell off dramatically. I figure I've learned enough to get by with what I want to do and Google can fill in the blanks. I swing by occasionally to see if I can offer some help to those that need.

Recently I've been spending time in another section that is very nearly dead...one post every few days. I find myself spending more time on another site dedicated to that pastime to read and learn more.

I think just like a few forums I've been a part of, a few members have run off a large amount of posters.


----------



## mnn2501

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's a handy ignore feature so no one has to read anything they don't want to.


That seems to be the party line. But then why bother to come here at all? (which is kind of the point of this thread - many people are not coming here anymore)


----------



## poppy

Probably several reasons. How many times does the question "Why did my chickens quit laying?" need to be answered before people get it? Another reason is YouTube. If you have a question, you can go there and someone will show you how to fix it rather than getting 20 responses, most of which are by people, although trying to be helpful, don't know what they're talking about. As to the politics forum, it is ruined. Inviting people back who had previously been banned for causing trouble of one kind or another in an effort to increase post count was asking for trouble. That's like releasing people from prison expecting them to change and become good citizens. Finally, the days of boards like this are probably numbered like the big malls. Lots of other ways to find what you want to know without all the drama.


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## poppy

Thank you for being such a good example of what is wrong. You can't post anything that the liberals don't jump on and call you some name for not being PC enough.


----------



## Lisa in WA

poppy said:


> Thank you for being such a good example of what is wrong. You can't post anything that the liberals don't jump on and call you some name for not being PC enough.


Sure you can. Stay down in the dark room and post your filth there. I'm pretty sure HT is trying to hide the vileness of posts like yours so it might be a kindness to the site if you stopped crawling out to infect the rest of the board.

As far as liberals raining on your ugly parade? That's your own fantasy that conservatives are as vile as your behavior. Most conservatives I know are decent people.


----------



## poppy

Good liberal response to someone you disagree with, "shut up and go away". I can't please every wit of the nit variety and have no intention of trying. Please use the ignore feature and rid yourself of this headache. I've been on here for many years and had many arguments with people who disagreed with me, as have many others who have left because of the likes of you. But we generally respected each other and those who didn't were banned. You may have been one of those. I frankly don't remember.


----------



## Terri

I think that what made HT grow, back in the days when we were still small, was the number of people who came because they were stuck with something, and the number of people who knew how to help them out of their dilemma.

We need more newbies who are stuck.

As I recall, nobody was too into politics: back then it was more "I have more milk than I can use: I tried to make cheese but it never set up". The point was not the cheese, the point was a fellow homesteader was struggling and we wanted to help.

And, yes, the rest of us learned about cheese as well, but what made the site interesting was just as much the people as it was the cheese. In real life we knew so few people with similar interests, and it was a treat to chat with people who had similar interests.

At least, that was how I remember it, from back in the lucenet days.


----------



## Jolly

People are people. Nastiness bleeds over from the DS and people carry their torches into other sections of the site - for example, you can see it in this thread. Most people don't need that kind of hate in their daily life and avoid the vibe. 

Another observation...the number of people who have really lived the rural life, who knew how to build and scratch a living for next to nothing...many of those people are no longer here, for one reason or another. IMO, the collective homesteading IQ of the site is not what it used to be...


----------



## wr

Jolly said:


> People are people. Nastiness bleeds over from the DS and people carry their torches into other sections of the site - for example, you can see it in this thread. Most people don't need that kind of hate in their daily life and avoid the vibe.
> 
> Another observation...the number of people who have really lived the rural life, who knew how to build and scratch a living for next to nothing...many of those people are no longer here, for one reason or another. IMO, the collective homesteading IQ of the site is not what it used to be...


It's sad that greed and deceit cost HT so many good members.


----------



## Shrek

MichaelZ said:


> I think FB has fallen off a lot in the last few years. It has gotten so a few people flood your timeline with their stuff, so then you must unfollow them, just to see other posts, nothing personal. Pretty soon all I am seeing on FB are mostly promoted posts. And for a source of info, FB offers nothing. But it does offer a lot of junk news. So it is not even comparable to HT.
> 
> If I have a question about something I post it here or search online (but not facebook!).


The morning news techie recently mentioned that Face Book is declining as more older folks go to it as their kids move on to other social media outlets away from their parents and grandparents or school administrators.

In another segment she referred to message boards although popular to groups was "web.1" and FB, twitter , etc as "web.2" and more people are starting to spend their available online time accessing the web.2 outlets from their phones but many still prefer the message board social media communities.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Steve in PA said:


> When I signed up it was for the Gardening section. I learned a lot from one prolific poster there that used to share seeds and advice.


That would be paquebot.
He's over at the site I linked above.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

poppy said:


> Inviting people back who had previously been banned for causing trouble of one kind or another in an effort to increase post count was asking for trouble.


That keeps being repeated, but the reality remains most people left this site before that happened, due to the previous management.

Put them on ignore if you don't like what they say.


----------



## AmericanStand

Like most things in life I think it is a combination of problems. 
Didn't one part of the forum used to say something like put on your flame proof undies to enter here ?
But the rule everywhere else was " Be Nice"
Moderation has gone through phases. Since the lines have seldom been clearly drawn moderation has been done with a I know it when I see it attitude. That leaves posters lost and moderators working from their own biases. 
Threads here wander around from topic to topic with no restraint , that makes it hard to google a subject then come here and get more than a post or two on that subject. 
Just imagine the size of the " my neighbors dog. " thread if all the threads and posts on the subject were combined!


----------



## ceresone

reading thru all the post's, it is quite evident why a lot dont post-that used to.one person hit the nail on the head--and a couple others proved the point. i often wonder if people are really that snarky in reall life--or just on here where they dont have a face. one once told me they had a lot of friends offline--but evidentally with a different attitude. i hope we dont lose this board-but it seems to be headed that way


----------



## Bearfootfarm

ceresone said:


> reading thru all the post's, it is quite evident why a lot dont post-that used to


Some prefer echo chambers, where all they ever have to hear is what they say themselves.
Anything different is not tolerated.



Terri said:


> As I recall, nobody was too into politics: back then it was more "I have more milk than I can use: I tried to make cheese but it never set up". The point was not the cheese, the point was a fellow homesteader was struggling and *we wanted to help*.


That's still going on every day.
No one is forced to participate or even look at anything other than the "homesteading" oriented topics.


----------



## arabian knight

AmericanStand said:


> Like most things in life I think it is a combination of problems.
> Didn't one part of the forum used to say something like put on your flame proof undies to enter here ?
> But the rule everywhere else was " Be Nice"
> Moderation has gone through phases. Since the lines have seldom been clearly drawn moderation has been done with a I know it when I see it attitude. That leaves posters lost and moderators working from their own biases.
> * Threads here wander around from topic to topic with no restraint , that makes it hard to google a subject then come here and get more than a post or two on that subject. *
> Just imagine the size of the " my neighbors dog. " thread if all the threads and posts on the subject were combined!


 Ah yes someone always has to either mention religion or politics and BOOM whatever the OP was it is now sidetracked for evermore. And it is just so few that seem to think they can regulate posts by anti this and that and bingo the OP has been lost. and that ticks people off to no end when the one or two MUST inject their bias to it. Not option but out and out bias against a few things. Mostly Christians, and then politics enter into it. Now I see a anti region post was just turned into a posting funny posts I hope the OP finally GETS THE MESSAGE.


----------



## painterswife

arabian knight said:


> Ah yes someone always has to either mention religion or politics and BOOM whatever the OP was it is now sidetracked for evermore. And it is just so few that seem to think they can regulate posts by anti this and that and bingo the OP has been lost. and that ticks people off to no end when the one or two MUST inject their bias to it. Not option but out and out bias against a few things. Mostly Christians, and then politics enter into it. Now I see a anti region post was just turned into a posting funny posts I hope the OP finally GETS THE MESSAGE.


I get the message. You don't like it that posters can now express their non religious opinion without getting blasted out of existence by the religious. Now it goes both ways. The religious can make a non religious thread about religion and the non religious can speak their truth as well.

There is a whole huge forum here where religion discussions are only tolerated now in the one forum. I think that is your real problem.


----------



## Terri

Bearfootfarm said:


> No one is forced to participate or even look at anything other than the "homesteading" oriented topics.


The POINT is that nobody would be pleasant to you at one spot and then laugh at you later. Nobody "blasted" anybody, ever, excepting for one single troll.

That was, alas, a few trolls and some snarky posters back. People who would first smile at you and then mock you or, in a few cases, cheat you or hurt you in real life.

I do not think it is possible to maintain that level of openness when there are 10's of thousands of members. There WILL be people on-line here who cannot be trusted. And, I see no solution. You cannot put the chick back in the egg.


----------



## Jolly

painterswife said:


> I get the message. You don't like it that posters can now express their non religious opinion without getting blasted out of existence by the religious. Now it goes both ways. The religious can make a non religious thread about religion and the non religious can speak their truth as well.
> 
> There is a whole huge forum here where religion discussions are only tolerated now in the one forum. I think that is your real problem.


As in much of real life, atheism has morphed into a religion of its own and its adherents are among the most vocal of proselytes. Religion can be discussed, but when people start making fun of deeply held beliefs, discussions spiral out of control. Maybe it's different down here in the Bible Belt, but when somebody tells you to have a blessed day, it's not akin to spitting on your mother's grave...even if you don't believe.

Ok, that's a pretty good derail...Back to the regularly scheduled discussion...


----------



## painterswife

Terri said:


> The POINT is that nobody would be pleasant to you at one spot and then laugh at you later. Nobody "blasted" anybody, ever, excepting for one single troll.
> 
> That was, alas, a few trolls and some snarky posters back. People who would first smile at you and then mock you or, in a few cases, cheat you or hurt you in real life.
> 
> I do not think it is possible to maintain that level of openness when there are 10's of thousands of members. There WILL be people on-line here who cannot be trusted. And, I see no solution. You cannot put the chick back in the egg.


That is not true. My experience was way different and if someone who was not a management pet, responded they got infractions and banned.


----------



## painterswife

Jolly said:


> As in much of real life, atheism has morphed into a religion of its own and its adherents are among the most vocal of proselytes. Religion can be discussed, but when people start making fun of deeply held beliefs, discussions spiral out of control. Maybe it's different down here in the Bible Belt, but when somebody tells you to have a blessed day, it's not akin to spitting on your mother's grave...even if you don't believe.
> 
> Ok, that's a pretty good derail...Back to the regularly scheduled discussion...


At least now both sides can be vocal. The way it should have always been.


----------



## no really

painterswife said:


> At least now both sides can be vocal. The way it should have always been.


I agree giving everyone a voice is the only way but I disagree when there are insults thrown in especially personal insults. Adults should be capable of discussing hot button issues in a civil manner. IMHO


----------



## Lisa in WA

painterswife said:


> At least now both sides can be vocal. The way it should have always been.



well, unless someone discloses their real life name and then starts threatening to sue over their own disclosure because, you know...he's "pretty sure he can buy and sell" other posters.


----------



## painterswife

no really said:


> I agree giving everyone a voice is the only way but I disagree when there are insults thrown in especially personal insults. Adults should be capable of discussing hot button issues in a civil manner. IMHO


I don't like personal insults either.


----------



## no really

painterswife said:


> I don't like personal insults either.


Yeah, when they start I kinda just dismiss the whole thread as irrelevant. Both sides indulgence in them, I have I'm sure and it's dang embarrassing.


----------



## Jolly

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> well, unless someone discloses their real life name and then starts threatening to sue over their own disclosure because, you know...he's "pretty sure he can buy and sell" other posters.


True.

I had already talked to my attorney and we thought we had enough grounds to at least have a bit o' fun. At the time, I was ticked off enough i would have thrown $20k down a rat-hole for the sheer pleasure I would have gotten out of it. But even for the satisfaction it would have given me, it just isn't worth the money. As I told Austin, take me off the list for the nether regions, as continued participation A) wasn't appreciated and B) was going to cost me and his employers money.

As for buying and selling folks, I generally don't talk about what I have. But when people who don't know their elbow from a hole in the ground start to talk about what you don't know and how idiotic you are...Well, sometimes you say some things best left unsaid.

Like anybody, I may have made an erroneous statement or two, but I've never lied. Not here, not on any other site and not in person.


----------



## ceresone

If anyone really wants to know what has happened to our beloved forum--just read the post-and you will have it.-----------as for the religion aspect, when I am dead, I will be glad I believed--other than finding out I was wrong


----------



## painterswife

ceresone said:


> If anyone really wants to know what has happened to our beloved forum--just read the post-and you will have it.-----------as for the religion aspect, when I am dead, I will be glad I believed--other than finding out I was wrong


That last sentence is a perfect example to me of you getting to post what you want about religion. It is a dig at those that don't believe that has been used many times here at HT. Then someone will dig back and we have bad feelings. Both sides do it.


----------



## ceresone

It is only a dig at you if you take it that way--I refuse to deny my faith to suit you--and you have the same choice


----------



## painterswife

ceresone said:


> It is only a dig at you if you take it that way--I refuse to deny my faith to suit you--and you have the same choice


Yet, you felt the need to throw your religion into this thread. Why? You maybe felt my or other's posts were digs?

Note, I did not start the conversation about religion. Others brought it in to a posts about slower readership.


----------



## Terri

painterswife said:


> That is not true. My experience was way different and if someone who was not a management pet, responded they got infractions and banned.


On the Lucent site? Back when there was one single line of comments, and no individual forums at all??


----------



## painterswife

Terri said:


> On the Lucent site? Back when there was one single line of comments, and no individual forums at all??


Your posts did not reference the Lucent site.


----------



## Terri

painterswife said:


> Your posts did not reference the Lucent site.


No, I did not.


----------



## arabian knight

ceresone said:


> If anyone really wants to know what has happened to our beloved forum--just read the post-and you will have it.-----------as for the religion aspect, when I am dead, I will be glad I believed--other than finding out I was wrong


 Ya and there is a whole lot difference then posting ones opposite views on the subject and posting Thread After Thread After thread anti Christian stuff. THAT is what is called Trolling. And Trolling at its Best. KNOWING there will be no retaliations will be issued or coming to said poster. THAT alone has changed many folks away. and that kind of attitude also has driving people away and SLOWED up traffic to nearly a crawl in a lot of cases. And yet some are so blind as not to se that? WOW.


----------



## painterswife

arabian knight said:


> Ya and there is a whole lot difference then posting ones opposite views on the subject and posting Thread After Thread After thread anti Christian stuff. THAT is what is called Trolling. And Trolling at its Best. KNOWING there will be no retaliations will be issued or coming to said poster. THAT alone has changed many folks away. and that kind of attitude also has driving people away and SLOWED up traffic to nearly a crawl in a lot of cases. And yet some are so blind as not to se that? WOW.


You post, post after post putting people down that don't believe in your god. I find that trolling. I don't see those posts being deleted or moderated.


----------



## arabian knight

mnY^a and WHY was this thread Started in the First place? HT Postings slowing up. And that attitude right there is one great example Stop people from seeing some posters??? That is the way to stop people from coming and posting.
That is the reason not only for the thread in the first place., and WHY things are happening at HT. Right there in your face is the reason~!!!
ALL it takes is One bad apple to spoil a barrel, and 2 or three make the entire barrel stink to high heaven.


----------



## painterswife

arabian knight said:


> mnY^a and WHY was this thread Started in the First place? HT Postings slowing up. And that attitude right there is one great example Stop people from seeing some posters??? That is the way to stop people from coming and posting.
> That is the reason not only for the thread in the first place., and WHY things are happening at HT. Right there in your face is the reason~!!!
> ALL it takes is One bad apple to spoil a barrel, and 2 or three make the entire barrel stink to high heaven.


I agree that it is part of the problem. It however is not the entire problem. Your posting history is not that conducive to having new members stay either.


----------



## HTAdmin

I would like to say this then close the thread so people see it. 

If you too would like to see HT return to it's glory days it's time to invite people back. Have someone you haven't spoken to in a while? Drop them a line and check on them. Invite friends that are on Facebook to come join us.

We have made mistakes, but it's nothing we can't overcome with assistance from good members. 

As for the trolling, the Dark Room was created for a reason. We need to contain the negativity in there. 

I will reopen this thread once I feel everyone has read my response.


----------



## HTAdmin

This thread has been reopened. 

Now lets concentrate on the positive. What do you guys think it's going to take to rebuild the site to it's glory days?


----------



## Clem

You guys will have to get over that whole "ownership of content" stuff. Realistically, why would I spend several hours making a video, then typing stuff up, then answering dozens of questions, about, say, air-layering plum trees, just to see you say that you own my input? That would be crazy.
Besides from all the craziness that runs in politics related commentary, look at how many really knowledgeable people just don't want to explain what they know anymore. This is why. You wanna own it, you spend 66 years learning what I know.

My work, my thoughts, my knowledge to give freely. Not yours to own.


----------



## Cabin Fever

Personally, I would want to spend more time here if there wasn't so much bickering. As some have insinuated, much of the bickering is carried over from the Dark Forum to other forums. Even is this thread, there is more arguing that borders on name-calling and being offensive.

My recommendation is that the Dark Room be temporarily closed or even deleted. Let the ones who like to argue politics and religion find another place to do it. I believe the overall effect of closing the Dark Room would result in a forum that is much more like the Luscenet forum of old and the early days of HT.


----------



## painterswife

CF, I have said it before that I am fine with closing that forum altogether. I do think though that a few of the other forums like current events would also have to go. The mods would also have to crack down on all politics that pops up in other forums.


----------



## Scott SW Ohio

I was once a fairly prolific poster, long ago and for a fairly short time. But though I still read here regularly I post less and less, for reasons that are not so important.

Oh no! The problem is...me. Rather than pointing the finger at other possible causes, I will blame myself. And the rest of you can blame me too. Mystery solved.

So I will stop expecting others to post more often and do it myself. And if fifty or so of you other disaffected posters do the same, we will have content and rational discussions here again. And if people are nasty to me I will be nice back, or ignore them - so there!


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Years ago there was no "General Chat" which is what the "Dark Rooms" have now replaced.

General Chat was added by popular demand because people wanted to talk about things *in addition to* "homesteading". (Not instead of). 



> Let the ones who like to argue politics and religion find *another place to do it*.


That's exactly why the "Dark Rooms" exist.
No one is forced to even see the thread titles now.
But people will still "bicker" and complain no matter what.

I was just reading a long thread on another site about how "bad" things are here, and yet some of those same people stir the pot as much as anyone else. 

One even referred to many here as "children" simply because they don't always agree with him.

If people would just stop all the melodrama the site would be just like it was, because it's never been perfect anyway.

It's the internet.
Lighten up and learn to use the ignore feature if you don't want to see different viewpoints.


----------



## Terri

Can we have a separate section for educational stuff? We could call it "How to homestead", or something similar.

It might be better if it were read-only. Let them take their questions or comments to the proper forum. I would have one section for video's and another section for written work.

It may be that we cannot compete with youtube, but I have noticed that the knowledge at HT is spread pretty thinly. This might help concentrate it a bit, which might make it more interesting for the newbies.

I used to get about $30 a month off of what I wrote, and I tend to agree with writer ownership of the articles and the videos. While I have no problem donating a little work to HT, some folks are making a business out of writing and I think that needs to be respected. I was merely a hobbyist. Can you set it up so that some people own their work and so can remove it if they chose, but that they could also donate it if they chose?


----------



## Terri

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's exactly why the "Dark Rooms" exist.
> No one is forced to even see the thread titles now.
> But people will still "bicker" and complain no matter what.


If you were talking, for instance, about rabbits and you are given advice from someone who, on another forum (such as the dark side), says that everybody of your beliefs are, for instance, "brain damaged", "retarded", "A traitor", and other such things, would it influence your conversation? Whether or not you would take their advice? Would it encourage you to open up and have a heart to heart talk with them?

And YES people want to talk about other things than homesteading!

I do not have an answer, but I disagree with you when you say that having a Dark Room does not influence the posters because nobody has to see it if they do not want to. Word does tend to get around about what (and who) various people hate.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Terri said:


> If you were talking, for instance, about rabbits and you are given advice from someone who, on another forum (such as the dark side), says that everybody of your beliefs are, for instance, "brain damaged", "retarded", "A traitor", and other such things, would it influence your conversation? Whether or not you would take their advice? Would it encourage you to open up and have a heart to heart talk with them?


You aren't forced to listen to anything they say at all in either forum.
If they give you good advice about your rabbit, it's your loss if you can't separate one context from the other.



> I do not have an answer, but I disagree with you when you say that having a Dark Room does not influence the posters because nobody has to see it if they do not want to. Word does tend to get around about what (and who) various people hate.


Yes, I realize people like to gossip, but that doesn't mean everything they say is true.
If you don't participate and see it yourself, just keep in mind you're hearing a one sided version of the facts.

That's just letting the melodrama override the truth.
Just like calling it "the dark *side*" gives it an evil connotation, when it's "The Dark Rooms", so named because they aren't visible to everyone (And there's really just the one room)


----------



## stanb999

Bearfootfarm said:


> Years ago there was no "General Chat" which is what the "Dark Rooms" have now replaced.
> 
> General Chat was added by popular demand because people wanted to talk about things *in addition to* "homesteading". (Not instead of).
> 
> 
> That's exactly why the "Dark Rooms" exist.
> No one is forced to even see the thread titles now.
> But people will still "bicker" and complain no matter what.
> 
> I was just reading a long thread on another site about how "bad" things are here, and yet some of those same people stir the pot as much as anyone else.
> 
> One even referred to many here as "children" simply because they don't always agree with him.
> 
> If people would just stop all the melodrama the site would be just like it was, because it's never been perfect anyway.
> 
> It's the internet.
> Lighten up and learn to use the ignore feature if you don't want to see different viewpoints.


I believe there was always a general chat... And we talked about religion and politics.  We were still expected to treat everyone with respect. Regardless.


----------



## stanb999

What's changed? People just aren't being nice. Why? In the past it was forced now it's not.


----------



## arabian knight

stanb999 said:


> What's changed? People just aren't being nice. *Why? In the past it was forced now it's not.*


 You hit the nail on the head. And why is not enforced you ask? Traffic Counts. Views, Hits what ever you want to call it that means Bucks, dough, revenue driven~! people brought back in that have nothing else to do but START controversial topics, KNOWING they are touching a hot spot in many on here. And then keep posting thread after thread knowing no Repercussions are forthcoming. WHY for Views And Hits to keep the light on.
And that is why this Dark Side is open at all. Bucks coming in, but nobody wants to admit that. Well it is backfiring on the owners of this site, and it has brought the entire Sites Traffic and views DOWN. And that was the reason for this OP to be started in the first place. WHY. Well there you have the Cause AND the reason things are like they are.


----------



## stanb999

arabian knight said:


> You hit the nail on the head. And why is not enforced you ask? Traffic Counts. Views, Hits what ever you want to call it that means Bucks, dough, revenue driven~! people brought back in that have nothing else to do but START controversial topics, KNOWING they are touching a hot spot in many on here. And then keep posting thread after thread knowing no Repercussions are forthcoming. WHY for Views And Hits to keep the light on.
> And that is why this Dark Side is open at all. Bucks coming in, but nobody wants to admit that. Well it is backfiring on the owners of this site, and it has brought the entire Sites Traffic and views DOWN. And that was the reason for this OP to be started in the first place. WHY. Well there you have the Cause AND the reason things are like they are.


Funny thing is I'm not generally overly nice. 

read the first post in general chat for a guide. 


http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/threads/gc-rules-and-operating-procedures-please-read.33684/


----------



## mzgarden

@Austin you asked for suggestions...
I propose:
1) Make the Dark Rooms a separate forum entirely. Everyone with current HT DR access becomes an automatic member of the new forum and retains their membership in HT.
2) Enforce the standing rules of civility and respect across the remaining sections of HT
3) Document a warning/suspension/banned set of criteria. For example (& I'm just making this up as an example) 3 warnings in one month = 3 month suspension. 3 suspensions in 12 months get you banned. Multiple moderators need to agree on the actions.
4) Privately tell a user when they've 'crossed the line.' Quote the specific language and thread.
5) Go back to the thread with the unacceptable response and do something there that will assure other users that the issue has been recognized and action has been taken. I'm not big on public shaming so I'm not sure how to figure this out but likely there's a solution in place somewhere that makes it clear to everyone.


----------



## CajunSunshine

A little input from me on #4 & #5:



mzgarden said:


> @Austin you asked for suggestions...
> I propose:
> 
> 4) Privately tell a user when they've 'crossed the line.' Quote the specific language and thread.
> 5) Go back to the thread with the unacceptable response and do something there that will assure other users that the issue has been recognized and action has been taken. I'm not big on public shaming so I'm not sure how to figure this out but *likely there's a solution* in place somewhere that makes it clear to everyone.


One solution may be a private forum available only to members...something called "The Woodshed." It seems to work very well with another forum I visit. The offending posts are moved to The Woodshed along with a public announcement explaining why it was pulled, etc. It would clearly demonstrate what will NOT be tolerated. This also serves as a running example of what the term "be nice" means here (which is too ambiguous of a term and which can be subjected to individual interpretation).

If something like this was ever done here, I propose all of The Woodshed threads be locked down to prevent forum members from "dogpiling" on the offending member, or debating the issue to death.

I think this would solve a lot of problems and clear up mysterious "what happened, and why" type of questions. Over time, it would serve as a clear example of "this is the kind of stuff that is not tolerated here." When a thread or post is pulled, mark it with something like "Moved to The Woodshed."




.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

stanb999 said:


> I believe *there was always a general chat*... And we talked about religion and politics.  We were still expected to treat everyone with respect. Regardless.


At one time there wasn't, and even 10 years ago when I joined you had to be here a couple of months and have lots of posts in other sections to gain access.
Politics was a separate section because many didn't want to see that.
SE&P and Current Events were once part of the Dark Rooms that couldn't be seen by just anyone

People complained about it then, just as some are now.
Nothing is going to make everyone happy, and nothing is going to bring back "the good old days".


----------



## Bearfootfarm

mzgarden said:


> @Austin you asked for suggestions...
> I propose:
> 1) Make the Dark Rooms a separate forum entirely. Everyone with current HT DR access becomes an automatic member of the new forum and retains their membership in HT.
> 2) Enforce the standing rules of civility and respect across the remaining sections of HT
> 3) Document a warning/suspension/banned set of criteria. For example (& I'm just making this up as an example) 3 warnings in one month = 3 month suspension. 3 suspensions in 12 months get you banned. Multiple moderators need to agree on the actions.
> 4) Privately tell a user when they've 'crossed the line.' Quote the specific language and thread.
> 5) Go back to the thread with the unacceptable response and do something there that will assure other users that the issue has been recognized and action has been taken. I'm not big on public shaming so I'm not sure how to figure this out but likely there's a solution in place somewhere that makes it clear to everyone.


You pretty much just outlined the rules that are in place now.


----------



## AngieM2

S*EP was Freedom and Self Reliance and was a forum brought over from Lusenet. When it was almost abandoned in 2005 it became S&EP then later Current Events was added. It's always been in the Special area since there was a Special area. Never part of GC or the like.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

AngieM2 said:


> S*EP was Freedom and Self Reliance and was a forum brought over from Lusenet. When it was almost abandoned in 2005 it became S&EP then later Current Events was added. It's always been in the Special area since there was a Special area. Never part of GC or the like.


It wasn't "part of GC" but it wasn't always visible to everyone, just like GC was and the "Dark Rooms" are now.
You had to be a member to see it at all.


----------



## Jolly

Want to see a successful forum? One that's been perking along 20 years and making money for Frank Baxter, the owner?

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/forums/1/1/Piano_Forum.html

At one time, there was a GC area on that forum. It provided lots of hits, but many of the same problems we are discussing now, happened on that board. Frank's solution was to kill that area of his board.

People are people and stuff bleeds over.


----------



## ceresone

We used to be neighbors, and had friendly chats. then a handful moved into the neighborhood, and took over. being the hillbilly that i am, we kinda froze them out. guess it dont work on the internet--so the only choice is to move--but funny--you find some of the nasty neighbors moved with you. so--what is the solution? I believe it will lead to shutting the doors on our once beloved home


----------



## Bearfootfarm

ceresone said:


> you find some of *the nasty neighbors* moved with you.


Yeah, it's always someone else's fault.
That's the only thing on which everyone agrees.


----------



## Lisa in WA

I don't think there is going to be any problem with site traffic. Look how many people are happily giving advice to spammers here On GC.

Is this a new way for the owners to boost the traffic thru here and make some revenue as well?


----------



## AmericanStand

Is it just my perception that while there are many more visitors to the site then there was a few years ago the number and interest levels of the threads seems to be way down?
Four instance it doesn't seem like anybody has had a crazy problem with their neighbors dog for quite a while and that used to be at least a weekly thread topic


----------



## poppy

AmericanStand said:


> Is it just my perception that while there are many more visitors to the site then there was a few years ago the number and interest levels of the threads seems to be way down?
> Four instance it doesn't seem like anybody has had a crazy problem with their neighbors dog for quite a while and that used to be at least a weekly thread topic


That's because dogs have gotten smarter than people.


----------



## painterswife

AmericanStand said:


> Is it just my perception that while there are many more visitors to the site then there was a few years ago the number and interest levels of the threads seems to be way down?
> Four instance it doesn't seem like anybody has had a crazy problem with their neighbors dog for quite a while and that used to be at least a weekly thread topic


A huge portion of the threads were that kind of disaster type thread. And from the same group of people over and over. It was people watching at it's finest.


----------



## Clem

One guy shot thousands and thousands of dogs. One time he claimed to lay the dogs nose to tail, from his yard to the moon and back. He probably ended up killing them all, since his dog killing activity seemed to grow exponentially.
If you double from one to 2, it's just a step from doubling from "half the dogs in the world" to "all the dogs in the world"


----------



## HTAdmin

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I don't think there is going to be any problem with site traffic. Look how many people are happily giving advice to spammers here On GC.
> 
> Is this a new way for the owners to boost the traffic thru here and make some revenue as well?


That's not how you make revenue. I've been doing this a decade so if you have questions about how to produce revenue please ask, but don't assume. 

That being said, what spammers? Can you please start reporting them so the mods and I can take care of them?


Guys, great suggestions so far. Lets keep this dialogue going on a positive note. 

Any other suggestions to getting HT back on track?


----------



## HTAdmin

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I don't think there is going to be any problem with site traffic. Look how many people are happily giving advice to spammers here On GC.
> 
> Is this a new way for the owners to boost the traffic thru here and make some revenue as well?


That's not how you make revenue. I've been doing this a decade so if you have questions about how to produce revenue please ask, but don't assume. 

That being said, what spammers? Can you please start reporting them so the mods and I can take care of them?


Guys, great suggestions so far. Lets keep this dialogue going on a positive note. 

Any other suggestions to getting HT back on track?


----------



## mnn2501

Austin said:


> This thread has been reopened.
> 
> Now lets concentrate on the positive. What do you guys think it's going to take to rebuild the site to it's glory days?


Have the company sell the website to a group that cares about more than what it can get out of it (ad revenue and stealing content from posters)


----------



## mnn2501

Cabin Fever said:


> My recommendation is that the Dark Room be temporarily closed or even deleted. Let the ones who like to argue politics and religion find another place to do it. I believe the overall effect of closing the Dark Room would result in a forum that is much more like the Luscenet forum of old and the early days of HT.


That would be the absolute end of this entire forum.


----------



## Cabin Fever

mnn2501 said:


> That would be the absolute end of this entire forum.


I doubt that. But it might be the end to a number of posters whose main hobby seems to be coming to HT solely to argue politics and bash religious beliefs.


----------



## arabian knight

Why sure it would the way it is being operated. Keeping sock putted aboard just to drive views and revenues up. They create 99% of ALL controversial subjects just to get views which draws revenue. But that is now has backfired on the owners as even this thread was started stated traffic is down. WHY is it down because this constant back and forth and back and forth pickering accomplishes Nothing~! Oh it does one thing puts the bucks to those that own the place. Close The Dark Side. Well Stop and start back up with handing out demerits~! Git rid of these people that think post after post has something of value when it is Dissing Christianity or religion in general. The Dark Side is the correct title for the place. Not the PC version of the Dark Room. They were brought BACK for a reason now that reason is clear to everyone. Been clear to most for some time, that its why THEY LEFT. LOL


----------



## Scott SW Ohio

I hope the politics forum stays. I view that forum, as well as others, every time I visit here. I like the different perspectives I see in Politics, and get a lot of insight into how people think outside my normal bubble. I do wish posters were more civil there, but I wish that of people in the real world too. For me the pluses outweigh the minuses.

And okay, I will admit the drama is addictive!


----------



## Lisa in WA

I th


Austin said:


> That's not how you make revenue. I've been doing this a decade so if you have questions about how to produce revenue please ask, but don't assume.
> 
> That being said, what spammers? Can you please start reporting them so the mods and I can take care of them?
> 
> 
> Guys, great suggestions so far. Lets keep this dialogue going on a positive note.
> 
> Any other suggestions to getting HT back on track?



I thought I did ask. Which is why you answered?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

arabian knight said:


> They were brought BACK for a reason now that reason is clear to everyone. Been clear to most for some time, *that its why THEY LEFT.* LOL


One more time, the majority left before anyone was allowed to come back.

The people that were banned weren't here at all when things hit bottom, and the "Dark Rooms" didn't exist.


----------



## Clem

It's quite possible that the devil you know is preferable to the devil you don't know.


----------



## Wanda

Cabin Fever said:


> I doubt that. But it might be the end to a number of posters whose main hobby seems to be coming to HT solely to argue politics and bash religious beliefs.



If you are sure this is going on, it means that YOU made an active choice to view that part of the forum. If you PM a moderator they will remove your permission and you will never have to suffer anymore.


----------



## arabian knight

Ya don't make the room better for everyone, just once again chase people away. Sounds like a no plan to me. Keep it up this place is doomed.


----------



## coolrunnin

arabian knight said:


> Ya don't make the room better for everyone, just once again chase people away. Sounds like a no plan to me. Keep it up this place is doomed.


I can't see that it's really changed much as far as the bickering over the years, just that the playing field was leveled a bit


----------



## barnbilder

I think if traffic is your metric for success, this site needs to work on tweaking its organic search placements. That way when somebody has a homesteading related question, they are shepherded to this forum. Then their question can be answered by a bunch of curmudgeonly old know-it-alls who would otherwise spend their time here bickering over non-sensical topics such as politics. With enough new posts, the backbiting jabs can get buried under useful information, and largely be saved for areas where computer literate newcomers would expect to see them. I had to do a wipe on my computer, had a hard time even finding the site on a search engine, I'm sure with the recent changes it didn't help search placement. In this day and time, money talks with search engines, so it might behoove the site owners to shell out some capital for an adwords campaign here and there. Strategically timed adword campaigns could get a lot of traffic. 

These be competitive times, what with FB honed to a razors edge of social media mastery. If you live in a place and have an interest, there is a FB group for you now. The allure of this site, is that the information is much easier to categorically search, without being buried under the same recurring newby questions that you have to scroll past, waiting for pictures to load in some cases, if you scroll fast. Here you can scroll through thread topics, and click on the ones you need. FB groups, you have to look at cute puppy pictures to scroll back to the thread you remembered skimming a week ago that had useful information. On a FB group with lots of traffic, your animal might be a distant memory by the time you find out about the issue it had, by scrolling through the pictures of fluffy. Most people are going to google next after asking on FB, maybe before they get a response on FB, and that is where this place needs to sell itself, in my opinion.


----------



## barnbilder

I just did some searches, with some keywords that should have popped this site up. Nothing. Tried "lamb won't nurse". Nada. Didn't go second page, because if you are not first page, you are invisible. Do one yourself, try "hen won't lay in a nest box". Tell me who is at the top. For me it was a site that I am familiar with, but haven't been on with this computer. In three places, all top of page one. My guess would be, that whoever is doing work for that place, is tweaking key words, maybe have done some adword campaigns, and have concentrated on a stable format that is mobile friendly, with a lot of upgrading to prevent downtime. 

Switching servers is bound to have hurt organic placement in the search engines, but there should have been ways to mitigate that.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

It doesn't even make the first page when you search "homesteading today".


----------



## barnbilder

Not the actual website, no. The facebook page is number two on the first page, which does include a link for the website, but that is not as good as having the actual website on the first page, in terms of getting people on this site. It really needs to come up on page one when you type in "my goat won't stop coughing", or at least by page three, if you want people whose goat won't stop coughing to visit the website.


----------



## barnbilder

Results may vary, according to browser history and search engine choice, and possibly geographic location.


----------



## Shrek

First , lets all remember that we casual members and mod staff simply want a no cost place in cyberspace to discuss, debate, bicker or learn on something. Initially after Greenspun servers started going down , some of us with boards on Greenspun /lusenet joined forces with HT admin to give members a mainframe in the corner of a small server farm .

As it grew, those of use with the first boards here were able to stop helping Chuck and Dean to pay out of pocket to keep the "lights on" as they pursued use of ads, sponsors and SEO to keep the lights on without donations.

Even in the early days of HT, admin made use of those attributes and our content to keep the lights on at no expense to we members.

The current owners use the same factors, we have the same free host site status and Austin knows us, knows Chuck and also knows the trials of admining our group hearing more complaints than compliments despite trying to be as non biased as he can.

Now lets look at the irony of only this thread. We have a single thread about traffic/ activity being down so bad, yet this thread has reached over 150 replies in only a few days in just a few days.

As Austin mentioned, those missing the old days of HT outside of this PRDC board , post something relevant on the search engine viewable boards instead of simply kvetching on this thread and invite a few who have wandered off through the years back to visit.

Instead of fighting or lamenting here or bickering on PRDC, I wonder what would happen if one person on this thread would just post here about one thing homesteading or country living they were interested in and ask others what one thing they might be interested in.

Y'all might actually find yourselves with a long civil thread and groups of 4,5 , 6 or more finding you have enough thoughts in common to move to the various boards for civil discussions.

"HT" first fell apart when Countryside magazine abandoned the lusenet board and it recovered and it has made it through bad times since and each time recovery efforts have shown success.

If members will show effort to restore the community they long for and use the PRDC board Austin established to vent their not so civil sides, the HT many long for will grow stronger as it has in the past.

Instead of lamenting what you miss, take the effort to make steps to bring back the cyber neighborhoods you remember but keep in mind just as real life changes, HT admin has chosen to be less biased to the various demographics now more fairly included in our community than they were before in our free use host here.


----------



## geo in mi

Would it be possible for a moderator to divert a single post to the dark side or some other area, where a battle could continue, while letting the original discussion by other posters continue on the original thread? Then give the offender a bank of, say, 10 diverted posts before he/she gets banned--or just allowed to post only in the Dark Room (jail?)? A poster could get "diverted" by discretion of a moderator, OR by so many valid "reports" by other posters on the thread.......

???

geo


----------



## geo in mi

Bearfootfarm said:


> It doesn't even make the first page when you search "homesteading today".


I typed homesteading today, directly into Google and it came up on the second listing of the first page.

geo


----------



## painterswife

I put in homesteading and stopped after three pages. I am shocked that homesteadingtoday did not come up in the first two pages.

Looks like that is the reason we are slowing down. No new blood. Yes new posts is part of the equation but not all.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

geo in mi said:


> I typed homesteading today, directly into *Google *and it came up on the second listing of the first page.
> geo


I used BING


----------



## Bearfootfarm

geo in mi said:


> Would it be possible for a moderator to divert a single post to the dark side or some other area, where a battle could continue, while letting the original discussion by other posters continue on the original thread? Then give the offender a bank of, say, 10 diverted posts before he/she gets banned--or just allowed to post only in the Dark Room (jail?)? A poster could get "diverted" by discretion of a moderator, OR by so many valid "reports" by other posters on the thread.......
> ???
> geo


Single posts can't be "diverted" since there's nowhere to send them.
They can be deleted and warnings or infractions handed out, which is how things already work.
Basing things on the number of "reports by other posters" would only result in people piling on those with whom they disagree.

The way it is now a group of moderators has to agree *a rule was broken*, and not simply that someone didn't like what was stated.

The system is about as good as it can get and still have fair, open discussions.


----------



## barnbilder

geo in mi said:


> I typed homesteading today, directly into Google and it came up on the second listing of the first page.
> 
> geo


The actual http or the facebook site?

I used yahoo, duckduckgo, and google. Did not try bing. Somebody needs to do some search optimization. I even took actual top thread posts here, that have been up a long time with lots of views and replies, and added "homesteading today" and couldn't get first page.

Think of it this way. If this forum was successful at sharing information, wouldn't long time members already be an expert on all things homesteading? If they are already informed about the things regularly discussed here, the only thing left is for them to bicker. New members are imperative to the direction of the content. Without fixing the search problems, there is little chance of new membership.


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## Cabin Fever

Homesteading Today (this forum) was the first listing to come up when I googled it.


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## barnbilder

Past search history will influence your search results. I'm searching with a computer with a new operating system, after a fresh wipe. Not getting it even by page three. Go to the library and try. Now, someone might have essentially used geographical filters to try and weed out people from undesirable areas. Maybe that is the case. Maybe I live in a geographical area deemed undesirable.


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## Sourdough

Try it without the word "Today". I can't imagine why anyone looking for Homesteading information.....would include the word "Today" in the search.



Cabin Fever said:


> Homesteading Today (this forum) was the first listing to come up when I googled it.


----------



## MoBookworm1957

Despite most of what is being said.
I came to this site to learn things about Homesteading.
Do I live on a Homestead? No I do not. I live in an apartment.
But I put your knowledge to work for me. I now raise a good portion of my produce.
Learned about raised beds,fruit trees,blueberries,blackberries etc.
Even learned about Goats, weaving, chickens, but the important thing to me is that I kept learning from your knowledge.
You people have a wealth of knowledge. How you chose to share sometimes is the problem.
Used follow quite a few of you, but don't now because of the bull****.
Came here to learn about Homesteading Today.
Now I adapt it to my circumstances.
For the most part I enjoy this site. I make a point to check in a couple times a day.
I can ask questions for the most part and not belittled for my lack of knowledge.
My lifestyle is different than most. Retiring military and glad to lived long enough to retire.
Now I know my thoughts will draw comments.
So be it.


----------



## Sourdough

The word "Homesteading" has been so abused, and misused and commercialized that it has no valid meaning anymore. If someone in Alaska say's they are homesteading, or are going to start homesteading, we just smile. Those of us who really filed on, and proved up on a real Federal Homestead are repulsed at the misuse of the word. You can't "BUY" a homestead, you earn a homestead from the Federal Government by going into the remote wilderness and meeting the requirements, to be granted the land.

I think most people using a search engine, would search the word "Small Farm" or "Subsistence living" or "Subsistence lifestyle". Maybe even "Survival Farm" or the currently popular, and super silly term "Bugout Land".


----------



## mnn2501

Cabin Fever said:


> Homesteading Today (this forum) was the first listing to come up when I googled it.
> 
> View attachment 59681


You would never put "Homesteading today" into a search unless you knew about this site and were specifically looking for it. 
A Google search of "homesteading" didn't show this site in the first 6 pages, Bing didn't have it in the first 6 pages either.


----------



## Jolly

What do you want to be? A homesteading site or a GC\political discussion site? If this site wants to be about homesteading, make it about homesteading.

As has been said, people don't come here searching for BS or for conflict. And no matter the arguments against, bad feelings and hateful statements overflow from the DS, so what actual good does it do for the purpose of the site? Melissa is doing quite well with a site that has no GC component. Tom is doing ok with a site that doesn't have a homesteading component. 

Decide what y'all want the site to be and then concentrate on your strengths.


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## Bearfootfarm

Jolly said:


> Melissa is doing quite well with a site that has no GC component. Tom is doing ok with a site that doesn't have a homesteading component.


Neither of those sites has the traffic this one does, and many of the people there keep coming back here just to complain.

They will both delete any posts or lock threads that don't "go with the flow".
Tom will ban people for no reason at all if they don't do the same. 
He's even banned people based solely on where they live.

Just in the past couple of days he's called most everyone here "children", including all the moderators and administration.
It's not like we can't see all that for ourselves.

No one has to even see anything other than the "homesteading" forums here if they so choose. 



> As has been said, people don't come here searching for BS or for conflict


I'd believe that if I hadn't seen so much proof to the contrary over a period of years.
There are quite a few that almost never post anywhere outside of "the Dark Rooms"

The bottom line is if people don't want to talk about anything other than "homesteading" no one will force them to.


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## arabian knight

Jolly said:


> What do you want to be? A homesteading site or a GC\political discussion site? If this site wants to be about homesteading, make it about homesteading.
> 
> As has been said, people don't come here searching for BS or for conflict. And no matter the arguments against, bad feelings and hateful statements overflow from the DS, so what actual good does it do for the purpose of the site? Melissa is doing quite well with a site that has no GC component. Tom is doing ok with a site that doesn't have a homesteading component.
> 
> Decide what y'all want the site to be and then concentrate on your strengths.


 You bet and those forums are doing it right. And that is what this one should go Back To~!. One way traffic for homesteading or the other. Not both and get this bickering crap gone and demerits back in place. Too many no it alls that have no other business but to distract and derail, and argue, and their options are the only ones that matter, no ones else comes close and that is the way to run people away and the traffic to slow down to a crawl.


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## Jolly

I do not see where Tom bans people indiscriminately. He simply does not tolerate a continued breaching of his board's rules. Melissa is much the same way.

As for site traffic...Yes, Tom's board is slower, simply because of total member numbers. Melissa's is quite active.

But I'm going to go back to my Piano world example...Get out of line on that board and see how long it takes before the wrath of the mods and the owner descends on you. That has been a successful board for two decades and constantly has new members dropping by to ask questions. To be fair, it doesn't have the traffic of this board, but it does make money and has done so for a long time.


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## AmericanStand

Wanda said:


> If you are sure this is going on, it means that YOU made an active choice to view that part of the forum. If you PM a moderator they will remove your permission and you will never have to suffer anymore.


 I think you misunderstand what he is saying. 
I see it too. Certain people that seem to be here just to stir the pot. His idea is if they can't stir the pot in the dark room they will leave. 
Since that type of posting has always been behind a closed door accessable only by being here and posting awhile it is hard for me to think people come here just to stir the pot.


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## Bearfootfarm

Jolly said:


> *I do not see* where Tom bans people indiscriminately. He simply does not tolerate a continued breaching of his board's rules. Melissa is much the same way.


Of course you don't "see" it since people just vanish without a trace, or they are denied entry altogether.

Tom left in a huff because he broke the rules here and had a single post deleted.

So did most of the original members at his site, many of whom became the moderators there.

"Rules" have nothing to do with it at all.
It's more about who he likes or doesn't like.



> As for site traffic...Yes, Tom's board is slower, simply because of total member numbers. Melissa's is quite active.


I didn't say it wasn't "active". I said they don't have the traffic this site does.
The fact remains the most "active" members at all three sites started out at this one, and they haven't changed themselves much over the years. 

They still keep blaming others for creating the problems when they do all the same things they complain about, but just won't admit it.

The other two sites started because of complaints about this site, and even after a couple of years many of the same people are still here complaining.

If *you* want this to be an "all homesteading" site, don't sign up for the single non-homesteading portion. 
It's really that simple.


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## oneraddad

This is why we can't have anything nice, someone is always trying to make and win an argument.


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## Bearfootfarm

oneraddad said:


> This is why we can't have anything nice, someone is always trying to make and win an argument.


And some are always popping in just to tell others what they are doing wrong.
They like to pretend that's not reality, but it is.


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## oneraddad

Over 11 posts a day, everyday for 11 years while be banned for a part of that time is bound to win you a few arguments.


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## Sourdough

I just want to know where did all the lovely ladies that were so playful on "Singletree" Go........????


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## Bearfootfarm

oneraddad said:


> Over 11 posts a day, everyday for 11 years while be banned for a part of that time is bound to win you a few arguments.


Stating reality isn't "arguing".
What I said is merely the truth, based on first hand observation.
Feel free to disprove my statements with facts.
I'll be happy to read any you can show.


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## coolrunnin

Bearfootfarm said:


> Stating reality isn't "arguing".
> What I said is merely the truth, based on first hand observation.
> Feel free to disprove my statements with facts.
> I'll be happy to read any you can show.


Its more delivery than content in your case.


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## Bearfootfarm

coolrunnin said:


> Its *more delivery than content* in your case.


It's not my fault you don't like it.

There's a handy ignore feature so you don't have to see things you don't like, although my "delivery" really isn't so much different than many others.

What was it you said to me on another thread the last time you tried to make me the topic?:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/threads/american-taliban-open-for-business.562180/page-5


> Last I knew you weren't a moderator so you don't get to tell me what or where o post.
> As you say buy the forum if you want that power


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## Heritagefarm

Steve in PA said:


> I think just like a few forums I've been a part of, a few members have run off a large amount of posters.


I left for about 4 years due to highly irritating members. For some reason, no one ever banned them. People only got banned for political disagreement reasons. Now it's just that no one gets banned.


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## Terri

People can complain or they can do something about it. Or do both, of course.

After Easter is done, I will finish what I am working on and make a post that is moderately heavy in buzz words, in an attempt to bring us a notch or two higher on google.


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## Heritagefarm

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's not my fault you don't like it.
> 
> There's a handy ignore feature so you don't have to see things you don't like, although my "delivery" really isn't so much different than many others.
> 
> What was it you said to me on another thread the last time you tried to make me the topic?:
> 
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/threads/american-taliban-open-for-business.562180/page-5


You're about 40% of what's wrong with this forum.


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## painterswife

Heritagefarm said:


> You're about 40% of what's wrong with this forum.


HT you need to take another break. That post is not helping the problem.


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## Declan

Heritagefarm said:


> I left for about 4 years due to highly irritating members. For some reason, no one ever banned them. People only got banned for political disagreement reasons. Now it's just that no one gets banned.


I don't venture outside Countryside Families very often unless it is to respond to a self-help question due to some members seemingly just looking to be disagreeable about something or the other. I had not long joined the site before the big brouhaha and got attacked by the rabble rousers for being some sort of corporate spy because I didn't fall in line with their nonsense. That and finding out that this a a corporate site both sort of dampened my spirit for the place. I can think of suggestions for improving traffic, but TBH, that really is an issue for the corporation that owns it to deal with. After figuring out that someone at another site was a reality show producer and sold a couple novel ideas to a network for new themes to one of their shows I had suggested on a forum, I stopped giving away free suggestions for how things can be improved.


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## arabian knight

Heritagefarm said:


> You're about 40% of what's wrong with this forum.


 A chill pill would help wonders, you can't keep going on the way this has been going. The board is in a slow death, a nice time out would be in order for a few on here for sure.


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## Bearfootfarm

Heritagefarm said:


> I left for about 4 years due to highly irritating members. For some reason, no one ever banned them. People only got banned for political disagreement reasons. Now it's just that no one gets banned.


Several have been banned fairly recently, so you're incorrect.



> You're about 40% of what's wrong with this forum.


Then you can eliminate 40% of your problems by putting me on ignore.
Just keep in mind there was a time when your comment would have resulted in you being banned.

In the meantime you can report all of my posts that you feel are "problems" and let the team of moderators decide if I broke any rules.


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## Jolly

Ignore doesn't work well. Invariably, somebody will quote an evocative post by someone you have on ignore and you get a dose of aggravating vitriol or nonsense you were trying to ignore in the first place.


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## Heritagefarm

painterswife said:


> HT you need to take another break. That post is not helping the problem.


Why is my vitriol a problem but not his? Why do you protect him? Is it because he usually agrees with you? Consistency is key. 



Declan said:


> I don't venture outside Countryside Families very often unless it is to respond to a self-help question due to some members seemingly just looking to be disagreeable about something or the other. I had not long joined the site before the big brouhaha and got attacked by the rabble rousers for being some sort of corporate spy because I didn't fall in line with their nonsense. That and finding out that this a a corporate site both sort of dampened my spirit for the place. I can think of suggestions for improving traffic, but TBH, that really is an issue for the corporation that owns it to deal with. After figuring out that someone at another site was a reality show producer and sold a couple novel ideas to a network for new themes to one of their shows I had suggested on a forum, I stopped giving away free suggestions for how things can be improved.


Yeah. Don't give out ideas for free unless you feel really generous.


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## painterswife

Heritagefarm said:


> Why is my vitriol a problem but not his? Why do you protect him? Is it because he usually agrees with you? Consistency is key.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah. Don't give out ideas for free unless you feel really generous.


He often disagrees with me. He is very matter of fact and he almost always talks about the post not the person. You have crossed the line a bit too often this week.


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## Heritagefarm

painterswife said:


> He often disagrees with me. He is very matter of fact and he almost always talks about the post not the person. You have crossed the line a bit too often this week.


Really? How often does he call someone delusional? If you can't tell, you're part of the problem too.

And last time I checked, you weren't a mod.


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## Bearfootfarm

Heritagefarm said:


> Why bother?
> *You do nothing but spread hate and vile*.


Why do you feel a need to lie rather than simply taking some action to solve what you perceive to be a "problem"?
You don't have to read anything I post.



Heritagefarm said:


> Really? How often does he call someone delusional? If you can't tell, you're part of the problem too.
> 
> And last time I checked, you weren't a mod.


I only call people "delusional" when what they post leads me to believe they are.


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## Heritagefarm

Bearfootfarm said:


> Why do you feel a need to lie rather than simply taking some action to solve what you perceive to be a "problem"?
> You don't have to read anything I post.


Last time I checked, you lie about my posts and what I say constantly.


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## painterswife

Heritagefarm said:


> Really? How often does he call someone delusional? If you can't tell, you're part of the problem too.
> 
> And last time I checked, you weren't a mod.


I am a forum member and I will let you know when I feel you have crossed the line as long as it is not breaking any rule.


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## Heritagefarm

painterswife said:


> I am a forum member and I will let you know when I feel you have crossed the line as long as I don't break the rules.


And I will explain how I feel as well. And I've always felt that that place doesn't keep enough of the trolls away. There's not much use in stating now, if the forum is already dying. It needed to start years ago.


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## painterswife

Heritagefarm said:


> And I will explain how I feel as well. And I've always felt that that place doesn't keep enough of the trolls away. There's not much use in stating now, if the forum is already dying. It needed to start years ago.


You do understand that several members believe you are one of the trolls. Making personal insults is not helping.


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## ceresone

This post has crossed the line into being down right funny--this is indeed a way to get more people back to the forum--tune in again for "As The Forum Turns" Chapter 11


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## Heritagefarm

painterswife said:


> You do understand that several members believe you are one of the trolls. Making personal insults is not helping.


I'll fully willing to have myself banned along with several others to improve the forum. However, as I said, it really wouldn't make any difference at this point. It needed to be done a long time ago.


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## painterswife

Heritagefarm said:


> I'll fully willing to have myself banned along with several others to improve the forum. However, as I said, it really wouldn't make any difference at this point. It needed to be done a long time ago.


You can always self ban. If this forum is so bad, I don't understand why you are here anyways.


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## Heritagefarm

painterswife said:


> You can always self ban. If this forum is so bad, I don't understand why you are here anyways.


It's not that bad. In fact I don't think there's a whole lot of stuff to complain about, and most things seem like reasonably friendly jibes.


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## Evons hubby

My mommy can whip your daddy! Oh really? Really? Come on now, I know everyone here is capable of so much better!


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## fordy

.........Politics should remain the way it is , because the many issues people argue about are factors that can directly affect their daily lives and so they feel strongly one way or the other and need a forum where they can express themselves ! Political and religious threads are , by definition , Argumentative and will always involve subjective issues not easily verifiable by scientific facts .
........Personal animosity will naturally develop and evolve betwixt active participants , the key , in Politics is for those who harbor such emotions to keep them in check and self regulate when they feel the need to post a personal insult that has nothing to do with the central theme of the thread . "Getting even" posts , in Politics just totally removes all the Fun adult participants derive from Arguing with each other and is a distraction that can derail the whole thread . , fordy


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## Evons hubby

fordy said:


> .........Politics should remain the way it is , because the many issues people argue about are factors that can directly affect their daily lives and so they feel strongly one way or the other and need a forum where they can express themselves ! Political and religious threads are , by definition , Argumentative and will always involve subjective issues not easily verifiable by scientific facts .
> ........Personal animosity will naturally develop and evolve betwixt active participants , the key , in Politics is for those who harbor such emotions to keep them in check and self regulate when they feel the need to post a personal insult that has nothing to do with the central theme of the thread . "Getting even" posts , in Politics just totally removes all the Fun adult participants derive from Arguing with each other and is a distraction that can derail the whole thread . , fordy


Well said.


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## barnbilder

Another trick that the powers that be might want to look into, if they thought new members were wanted. I noticed several other forums came up when doing a search for homesteading today. You will notice that if you do a search for advance, auto-zone will come up. If you do a search for lowes, home depot will come up. Page one probably, in both cases, probably very close to the top. They are using keywords to steal each others customers, or at least give someone another option a back button away. 

You might think that people searching for the term "homesteading today" is not important. You would most likely be wrong. Chances are, people would stumble on here, and possibly remember the name of the website where they found information about some specific problem. They might not bookmark it, and probably won't join on their first visit. They probably are reading about a problem they are having on some old thread, the very first time. Later, they might look for what they remember as that homestead site. It is not going to be easy to find again, right now.


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## Bearfootfarm

Heritagefarm said:


> Last time I checked, you lie about my posts and what I say constantly.


No, that's not true either.
I have no need to lie about anything, and you cannot show that I have at all.



Heritagefarm said:


> And I will explain how I feel as well. And I've always felt that that place doesn't keep enough of the trolls away. There's not much use in stating now, if the forum is already dying. It needed to start years ago.


And by "trolls" I'm assuming you mean anyone who doesn't agree with you?
Why not quit before you dig this hole too deep?


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## Heritagefarm

fordy said:


> .........Politics should remain the way it is , because the many issues people argue about are factors that can directly affect their daily lives and so they feel strongly one way or the other and need a forum where they can express themselves ! *Political and religious threads are , by definition , Argumentative and will always involve subjective issues not easily verifiable by scientific facts* .
> ........Personal animosity will naturally develop and evolve betwixt active participants , the key , in Politics is for those who harbor such emotions to keep them in check and self regulate when they feel the need to post a personal insult that has nothing to do with the central theme of the thread . "Getting even" posts , in Politics just totally removes all the Fun adult participants derive from Arguing with each other and is a distraction that can derail the whole thread . , fordy


They are argumentative, but one reason why such threads often derail is because most people are not taught proper argumentative form. The nature of the argument is sophisticated, and to the best of my knowledge it is not even taught in schools. We are, in fact, taught to avoid open and honest discourse. We are, in American society, taught that questioning someone's opinions, views, or beliefs is insulting. "Don't contradict your parents," for instance. Children are to obey their parents regardless, unquestioning. What is not taught is how to properly bring forth evidence that supports their arguments, and further, the ability to relent and admit to having made a flawed argument in the first place.

So from age 1 onward, people are taught not to question their superiors. That is incredibly destructive. But what we've now wound up with is people who question authority with *no* evidence. We've gone the complete opposite direction because people were never taught that healthy disagreement is constructive to sophisticated and democratic society. How can we have government that functions well when we cannot even articulate what that government should be, and provide rationale for that operative? How can we have society that functions well when, the instant someone's beliefs get questioned, they run to a safe room or break down into a personal attack?



Bearfootfarm said:


> No, that's not true either.
> I have no need to lie about anything, and you cannot show that I have at all.
> 
> 
> And by "trolls" I'm assuming you mean anyone who doesn't agree with you?
> Why not quit before you dig this hole too deep?


You show people the kind of person you are in every post. Your posting patterns represent a disturbed and cynical personality type. It is always painfully obvious that you do not engage in discourse for the purpose of furthering information or expanding any realm of information, but only for expounding your own personal opinions and causing others emotional angst. I have no reason to show this, for it is self evident.


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## Evons hubby

Heritagefarm said:


> They are argumentative, but one reason why such threads often derail is because most people are not taught proper argumentative form. The nature of the argument is sophisticated, and to the best of my knowledge it is not even taught in schools. We are, in fact, taught to avoid open and honest discourse. We are, in American society, taught that questioning someone's opinions, views, or beliefs is insulting. "Don't contradict your parents," for instance. Children are to obey their parents regardless, unquestioning. What is not taught is how to properly bring forth evidence that supports their arguments, and further, the ability to relent and admit to having made a flawed argument in the first place.
> 
> So from age 1 onward, people are taught not to question their superiors. That is incredibly destructive. But what we've now wound up with is people who question authority with *no* evidence. We've gone the complete opposite direction because people were never taught that healthy disagreement is constructive to sophisticated and democratic society. *How can we have government that functions well when we cannot even articulate what that government should be, and provide rationale for that operative?* How can we have society that functions well when, the instant someone's beliefs get questioned, they run to a safe room or break down into a personal attack?
> 
> 
> 
> You show people the kind of person you are in every post. Your posting patterns represent a disturbed and cynical personality type. It is always painfully obvious that you do not engage in discourse for the purpose of furthering information or expanding any realm of information, but only for expounding your own personal opinions and causing others emotional angst. I have no reason to show this, for it is self evident.


I would just go with the words our founding fathers used when writing our ever so simple and easy to comprehend constitution.


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## geo in mi

"Did too!" "Did not!" "Did too!" "Did not!" 
I want my money back....
Oh, wait, this is free.....

Adios.....

geo


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## AmericanStand

Bearfootfarm said:


> And some are always popping in just to tell others what they are doing wrong.
> They like to pretend that's not reality, but it is.


I think a lot here agree you do that. 


coolrunnin said:


> Its more delivery than content in your case.


Ding ding ding we have a winner. 
Seems he knows how to ride the knife edge. 



Bearfootfarm said:


> It's not my fault you don't like it.
> 
> There's a handy ignore feature so you don't have to see things you don't like, although my "delivery" really isn't so much different than many others.
> ]


You are right it's not your fault but it seems to be your goal. 
Ignoring your mudslinging won't protect his reputation. 
Often your only apparent goal seems to be to belittle and discredit. 



Heritagefarm said:


> You're about 40% of what's wrong with this forum.


I'd say if you include the others that do the same thing it's approaching 80%

In fairness to BFF I have noticed that lately he seems to have increased the percentage of his posts offering helpful advice and neighborly conversation, the core values of this forum. 


I think something that would help this forum immensely would be a reverse ignore feature, a sort of privacy setting that would allow you to designate certain people you didn't want to see your posts.


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## ceresone

American stand, that has been tried on other forums, problem is, many just change their name and come back. i would have thought this post would have beat itself to death before now--but on it goes, I think the mod's are being very tolerant , just please, dont let our forum implode!!


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## HTAdmin

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I th
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I did ask. Which is why you answered?


The super big secret to a financially profitable community is a happy community. If people are happy they post. Post drives up revenue. 

My job is to make as many people happy as possible with new features, rule enforcement, etc. 

Any other questions for me? If so please ping me. 

Happy Easter guys!


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