# Once Fired Brass Prices??



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

With all the government overrun ammo mon the market, no one is advertising once fired brass.
Anyone seen a good price on .223 Rem or 5.56mm Once Fired Brass lately?
Please throw me a link if you have...


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## gundog10 (Dec 9, 2014)

Diamond K Brass.com is my go to site for brass. They ship fast and always give you more then ordered just in case you get a bent case or two. 1000 cases for around $55.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I don't have any great online source I just offer other shooters at the club the going freedom munitions price for their brass , currently 1.80 a pound I have a refrigeration scale in my van that makes weighing it easy 

most everyone collects it up we have to pick it up either way as part of range rules ,many just collect it and don't really know what they will do with it but they know it has value some of them then send it off to freedom munitions to reduce their next order , I just offer the same amount as freedom has on their web site that day in cash but with no shipping , this keeps me in brass for most things


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

I think palmetto state had them for 8.99/100 earlier today


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Once fired brass.com usually has some and they are generally reasonable.


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hi Guys,
I'm pretty tickled I just visited my local range and picked up just over a thousand 5,56 cases a hundred 38/357 mixed cases 357 sig and 50 or so 300 blackout and several hundred 40 S&W. I had a fellow at the VFW look at me weird when I told him about it. He understood better when I explained this was mostly stuff that I would have paid about 10 cents a piece for it. if you found 3,000 or so dimes strewn about a quarter acre of public land. You would be excited to!
I did have to pick it up thru the melting snow and about 1/2 inch to 4 inch's of puddle My back is barking three days later and my hands are about frozen still.
Other than that wire cage rolling gadget what would you use to pick up brass like this? I ended up leaving about 20% behind just because I couldn't physically follow thru, I am sort of pouting about that oh, and despite not doing it on purpose I did pick up 300 or so 9mm I just give that away or find someone to swap with. Its nice when once and a while the Norns give you a cookie!
Dutch


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I would suggest kids and sacks to pick it all up , but they eat to much to keep profitable 

if the snow melts the rest of the way it may be worth another trip 

I like the first trip to the range after snow out in the spring , the grass is matted down flat and the brass is plentiful 

best option for picking it all up since there is no sush thing as a brass magnet , is a small cart that you can sit on and push yourself around with your feet backing up and be close to the ground comfortably , although it may not work so well in the snow 

I started making such a thing for picking strawberries that would straddle a row and just let me keep pushing back sitting right over the row , but my prototype ended as just a bench that would straddle a row and could be picked up and moved a few feet at a time , nice pneumatic wheels were going to make it rather expensive for the money I was saving picking my own straw berries , well that and I ran out of time like most things 

it was dual purpose for picking bush green beans also but then I got pole beans and grew them on cattle pannel I could just pick standing

what I ended up making was basically a wooden version of this http://www.gardeners.com/buy/deep-seat-garden-kneeler/40-009+++GR.html?utm_campaign=PLA&utm_medium=googleshopping&utm_source=google&SC=XNET9798&gclid=Cj0KEQiAv5-zBRCAzfWGu-2jo70BEiQAj_F8oGoBBKtkwrYyXFpTHGijCzvhCOawUjeeF0nMf__-h5QaAgTn8P8HAQ&kwid=productads-plaid^115063658438-sku^[email protected]%20%20%20GR-adType^PLA-device^c-adid^92861478158 but that was only a seat , my grandmother has one of these and uses it in her gardens it lets you neel on the bench and helps with getting up 

she also has something like this http://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...qvXJieSZRCfjkLwSTZw40ATHTqbnN_QQPQaAqGW8P8HAQ but I think a rolling cart that straddles the row is the way to go


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## Veedog (May 4, 2015)

Go to rmrbullets.com

They have 1000 rounds of new primed brass for $135 shipped. Some is crimped in primer and I believe they have non crimped sometimes. Considering the price of primers I feel that's a good deal. And the may use the cci 41 primers for military use. The number #2 grade mixed brand primed brass is $116. Good for blasting and hunting if you can't retrieve your brass


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Most of our foot of snow has melted off and I just time picking up almost as much, as the first time no more 300 blackout. but I did pick up any 9mm that was under my hand so my horse trading pile has been refilled. 
The guy at the hardware store did order me some sort of picker upper that's 30 inch's long but it wasn't in, before I left town I used the thick foam pad I use for sitting deer hunting and a small tub and kept putting it for ward 6-8 inchs under my tush them picked up most of the stuff around. me kept my but warm and dry, my knees did get dirty but for the cost that's OK. even picked up 20 rounds of 30-30. Not terribly useful 
Dutch


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

30-30 can still be traded , a few of us load for it but I look at anything even the berdan primed brass cases that I won't reload as money , scrap brass pays almost as much as picking it up to reuse it I keep a 5 gallon pail next to my reloading bench spent primers , split necks , or otherwise bad brass goes in the bucket when it is full it should be worth some good money , it is about half way there and is already fairly heavy.

interesting things that I don't currently reload for like 303 brit, 7mm-08 and 45lc I keep in another bucket for trade or later use


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hmm,
I gave away a large(well a hundred) bag of 30/30 and 32 special at the gun show last month.
Is any of that 303 brit boxer primed? I have a couple hundred rounds of it I've scrounged over the years. 
I can start keeping it separate if it has a place to go. Looks like a great round for single shot!
Dutch


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

PPU 303 BRIT is boxer primed just checked one from my interesting save for later brass bucket


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Our izzak Walton league range has trash cans full of brass. Most in my area have more money than brains. So we pick it up.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

we have buckets of brass at the range also , but the deal is if it goes in the bucket , it is owned by the range 

one for center fire brass , one for rim-fire brass and one for steel cases

so unless you pick it up , or arrange to purchase it from the club whats in the bucket stays in the bucket 

a five gallon pail of brass or two a month will help keep the lights or the heat bill paid


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I found a military installation auctioning off brass for less than scrap weight.
About 40,000+ brass (by weight) as near as I can tell.
This should hold me for practice/plinking brass for the next couple or three years!


If you want to see why his forum gets strange,
Read this thread!
Asking for links to once fired brass,
Get all kinds of stories, right angle tangents, ect...


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## Veedog (May 4, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> I found a military installation auctioning off brass for less than scrap weight.
> About 40,000+ brass (by weight) as near as I can tell.
> This should hold me for practice/plinking brass for the next couple or three years!
> 
> ...



Jeephammer, more like a limaÃ§on trisectrix


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

stories and tangents make it fun , it's like coffee at the dinner with the old timers talk about everything and nothing all at the same time.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

If you are going to talk, then come over and de-crimp some of this military brass!
I'll buy the coffee & doughnuts...

40,000 cases (55 gallon drum) is an abstract number until you start the de-prime, cleaning and trimming process...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> If you are going to talk, then come over and de-crimp some of this military brass!
> I'll buy the coffee & doughnuts...
> 
> 40,000 cases (55 gallon drum) is an abstract number until you start the de-prime, cleaning and trimming process...



working my way through a few coffee cans at the moment , and was considering Lee's new trim die http://leeprecision.com/deluxe-power-quick-trim.html

I took my lyman small rifle pocket reamer out of the handle and chucked it up in the cordless drill as it is 

I decamp and size as one step , then ream the crimp out , then trim a coffee can at a time 

I am set up in the living room so when I watch the tv with the wife I can be productive, I keep a bucket between my feet to catch the chips


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

$26 is cheap enough!
The price helps off-set the pain in the butt chips...
I'd set aside the case holder if you have more than one for the caliber you are working with,
Those shell holders aren't created equal, ruined some perfectly good brass before I figured that one out...

I just ordered a stand alone power trimmer...
Don't know how its going to work since it indexes off the case shoulder instead of the head like a ram does...
Cleaned & resized it should let me stick the neck in the hole and pull out a trimmed to length brass,
Assuming the sizing die got the cases uniform.

Its got a chip catcher built in...
That will be new!
I'm used to finding chips for days, usually stuck in my hands!

Just got my electrical induction annealer on line!
Boy, did I screw up some brass figuring out belt speed and power settings!
It will anneal about 1,500 an hour with no issues other than the room getting a little warm when you run it two or three hours.

Dumps annealed brass right into my media tumbler...
Now, all I need is a press or cutter (I'm leaning towards cutting) the primer pockets on an automated, semi-industral scale...

Hand swaging simply isn't going to work on a normal press,
Can't get enough pressure to forge the primer pocket uniform for US commercial primers.

That's going to be a head scratcher...
Not all flash holes are uniform, so you can't really pilot off them,
I've got a couple ideas, but nothing even on paper yet.
I'm considering a guide rod inside the case that radisus the flash hole in the proces,
Along with that working as a guide for the primer pocket cutter,
But that's going to be a LOT of moving parts, and a LOT of machine work to do...

I just bought 4 more barrels of brass on line, about 1.2 cents a case.
That's 160,000 MORE brass to do!
Looks like reloading might be my retirement business, provided I can keep getting brass & bullets this cheap!


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## Veedog (May 4, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> $26 is cheap enough!
> The price helps off-set the pain in the butt chips...
> I'd set aside the case holder if you have more than one for the caliber you are working with,
> Those shell holders aren't created equal, ruined some perfectly good brass before I figured that one out...
> ...




Jeephammer, how are you shipping the brass back to your place? I've looked and followed those auctions, but you need to hire a delivery service. Then it talks about who is allowed on base to pick certain things up. I'm moving to Alabama about 1/2 hour from fort Benning, so I'm going to be scrounging everything I can from the auctions. It was always the shipping that was expensive. But I just don't have the time and space now to buy barrels of brass. I can get 5000 primed new cases for about $500 shipped. That'll last me a good while with say 5 reloads on each case. Let me know if you score any other calibers also ever. And what will you sell 1000 cases of 5.56 that are ready to prime and load? :bow:


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I go pick it up, about 50 miles from the house.
Don't know of any base that won't let you into the scrap area to pick up a purchase.
I called the installation, got instructions,
Which was an inspection of the vehicle, presumably for bombs, a visitors pass, and an escort. 
Took about 30 minutes total since I regestered in advance and the pass was waiting at the guard gate.

Right now I'm having annealing problems.
I built an electrical induction annealer, and I'm having issues with the feed speed...
So many guys use torches and ruin the brass,
Using a torch CORRECTLY is tedious,
Induction annealing is just as fast or faster, and its precise on a single piece basis (with a timer),
I'm doing volume, belt fed annealing, and the belt speed likes to do some pretty weird things.

The case feeder to belt transfer likes to hang up, slowing the belt and over cooking the cases in the coil.

Then there is the primer pocket crimp to deal with, which is the REALLY slow part of the operation,
I'm kicking around some ideas for automating that process,
And case length trimming is getting automated next week.

No blunt cut, chatter marked, no taper for me!
I've got cutters worked out to PRECISELY cut, champfer, deburr in one process.

I wonder if just PRECISELY reconditioned brass would make as much profit as loaded ammo?
I know the profit margin on loaded ammo would be higher,
But that also involves product liability insurance, hazmat shipping, ect.
Just PRECISELY reman brass wouldn't need anything stupid, like construction of a powder magazine, ect.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I would think the market for reconditioned brass would be fairly small on 223 I talk to so many people that don't see any point to reloading 223 just buy more ,other cases might be better.

but with the really low cost of advertising reconditioned brass online and low shipping costs , figure out what goes into a medium flat rate box double bagged in sturdy plastic bags , and sell by the pounds that fit in a medium flat rate give an approximate number of pieces that is , the market may be small but there is likely to be one.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I can get 7.62 (.308) brass for the same price.
They have TONS of .50 BMG, but I'm not getting into that for anything but yellow brass scrap.

Plinking .223 or 5.56mm ammo has really broken lose, its cheap!
Last time I looked (last week) about .33 cents each when you buy 1,000 or more.
I don't shoot that import crap in my rifles, but I can't even begin to compete with that building premium rounds for accuracy.

Maybe I should have bid on some of the bullets they were selling by the pound...
But I can't see putting a FMJ on top a highly accurate brass with a lot of time/effort put into it.
I mostly do ballistic tips for varmints or thin skinned animals,
They just happen to be highly accurate when target shooting also.

I think I found the issue with the feed on the annealer.
Looks like rounded slot edges on both the belt blocks AND the feeder allow a gap the random case can get wedges into, makes the belt hesitate or stop.
That means a new feeder wheel because I'm NOT going to cut 450 belt blocks again!
The router in fiberglass/resin material had me scratching for a week!

Now, if I can just remember to stop burning myself on the induction coil


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I started loading up some of my cases today , I am certainly not doing any where near the volume you are I have a box of 1000 Hornady 55gr spire points I picked up on sale , the case prep sure does make it all glide through the press nicely.

I figured besides time I have about 18 cents a round into my ammo the cases were free the bullets were 8.4 cents +shipping powder is running me about 6 cents a round and I am loading 2.2 cent primers to buy a comparable remanned ammo with the same bullet would cost around 50 cents a round and shipping


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

That sounds cheap, I mean for anything but FMJ in bulk.
Even hollow points jump the price up.
Wally World is still about $1 a round for soft points...

I cranked out the last batch of ballistic tips,
Mostly V-max & Benchmark, some 223 CFE, for about 41 cents each.
Benchmark and CFE are WAY expensive, a little more than double the Winchester we've all been using for the past 25 years...

The CFE I haven't found that hyper accurate load yet...
The Benchmark came right in, started with 25 grains, which was acceptable by anyone's standards, about 7/8 MOA,
At 26.2 grains I hit an accuracy node, which spread across three different barrels, .223 and 5.56 chambers.
10 shot groups you can cover with a dime!
That's a sweet spot load in anyone's book!

Go up to 26.5 and the accuracy goes back down to about 7/8 MOA.

Interestingly enough, that same load doesn't work as well in the 223 Wylde chambered rifle.
(.223 Rem with closed up free bore over SAMMI specs, Bill Wylde creation)
I run TIGHT, SAMMI spec chambers, or Tight NATO 5.56 chambers,
There just isn't a ton of difference in olgive to rifling with the Wylde chamber,
So I have to *Assume* the V-Max/Benchmark 'Likes' a little running start at the rifling...

I've been RE-reading the same article all day, trying to digest it.
This guy took a 26" AR barrel, did velocity tests with same lot number factory ammo, about 10 brands,
Then cut an inch off the barrel, crowned it, and did it all again,
Down to just a few inches.

Interesting results when you compare where bullets break and tumble,
At what point hollows mushroom,
At what point varmint rounds come apart...

Compare muzzle velocity to terminal ballistics, and its an eye opener.
Seems the much maligned M193 55 Gr. FMJ isn't such a bad bullet after all,
And the much over emphasized M855/SS109 is a high speed knitting needle.

26" is STUPID long for a .223 barrel, and cutting it down a little increased muzzle velocity in about all commonly available ammo,
Muzzle velocity drops off sharply below about 16" or 17", depending on ammo.

Short barrel and heavy bullets is a death nail in velocity...
Kind of common sense there, but people often ignore common sense.

I'm waiting for UPS to show up with my brass trimming cutter bits so I can try out the high production length trimmer.
All dressed down and no where to go!
The feeder/rams work well WITHOUT the cutters, and Mr. Murphy seems to be supervising this project!
I wish SOMETHING would go right the first time for a change!

I spent the morning cutting the legs off my SS pin tumbler so the annealer belt throws the brass directly into the cleaning drum,
One heavy lift I won't have to do!
Got them pivoting like a cement mixer drum now so no bending over, lifting the drum & 50 or 60 pounds of brass/media at a time...

Now, I'm trying to think my way through a media/case seperator.
Water, pins, brass, and if I'm not careful, MY PHONE!
I'm going to have to stop carrying it in my shirt pocket...

I'm looking at an old cloths dryer drum,
The holes are small enough to retain the brass, but I'll have to think it over some before I start cutting up metal,
I've screwed enough things up this year!


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

De-cap, anneal, clean/polish, resize, deburr flash hole, decrimp & uniform primer pocket,
I'm actually seeing this stuff in my sleep I've been so involved in it.

The same thing happened when I was building the scroll press to produce .22 LR brass,
Just before the gates opened and .22 became available again...
Mr. Murphy lives in my shop...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

this is the bullet http://www.midwayusa.com/product/11...-diameter-55-grain-spire-point-with-cannelure

I have both 1 in 7 and 1 in 10 barrels a 16 and 18inch lenghts , I would like to find a load that will make them both under an inch at 100 yards , it may not happen but it might.

I have been loading hornady 50gr spire points for the 1 in 10 with 26gr H4895 I am going to keep using the H4895 , I like it because it works well enough for my purposes and I can feed 223 , 30-30 , 30-06 for hunting and the M1 with one powder , H4895 kept match shooters using it a long time till varget and a few other ultra accuracy powders came along , I am not a match shooter so I figure it will do fine for the 200 yard max shot I could take I have never actually shot game over 125 yards and it is unlikely to change as the woods have gotten thicker over the last decade than they were 20 years ago , lots of under brush with the lower deer population still enough to eat every year but not like there were . 25 years ago we had to apply for a doe tag in August and you would only get one about every other year , then they went to giving one every year then all the free doe tags you could use now we are back to a buck and a doe tag with optional 12 dollar extra doe tags but limited some.


for brass processing I learned back when I ran drill press do one process then change and do the next after a all or a specified lot was done. doing the same thing very repetitively isn't much fun , but when I have more than one thing and I get distracted I don't have to stop and thing or figure out what process I was on 

so I start with a coffee can of brass , and decap and size , moving them to the next coffee can ans so on


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I shoot ground hogs out to about 500, coyotes to about 600,
So muzzle velocity is a huge issue for me,
I want the rifle to shoot right dead on the ballsitics tables,
Or in some cases, right on the bullet drop compensation built into the optics.
Old eyes, so optics on about everything these days...

If you are only doing 200 max, that won't be an issue for you.

I tried Benchmark because so many of the other really good shooters were having such good luck with it.
Its not nearly as fussy about temperature as the old Win 748 stand by,
I can leave ammo in the sun and it still shoots dead on the money,
Pulled the rifle out of a 35*F shop and busted a coyote, COLD bore at about 550 yards,
Which I didn't expect at all.
I can tell you I WILL NOT have these old bones on a range bench in 35 degree weather anymore, so I was hoping to get close enough to scare the crap out of that coyote, but I busted it about 1" below my intended aim point.

No one was more surprised than ME!

I'm fiddling with CFE (Copper Foul Eliminator) but I just haven't stumbled onto a load my 1/9 & 1/10 twist rifles like as much as that Benchmark.
At $36 to $38 a pound, I don't know how much more I'm going to try.
If it shot like Benchmark, it might be with it, but I'm not finding that accuracy sweet spot with it...

With Win powder, I used to keep the ammo in the bag, with a damp towel on top,
And NEVER in direct sunlight.
In competition, you could always tell the Win powder shooters,
Mag in the pouch with a towel draped over it until time to shoot,
Then mag out immedately and back under the towel...

On 90-100 degree days, it was a crap shoot where the rifle was going to shoot,
Hot ammo, 1-3/4" high just like clockwork...
The problem was, one round or mag would shoot normally, the next 1-3/4" high.
You just never knew exactly when the powder was going to reach 'That' temperature.

I shot Benchmark off the bench from 45 to 95 degrees with no perceivable changes.
I can't remember any other powder that would do that...
Chronograph strings of ten shots with less than 10 FPS from high to low,
Which is remarkable,
But less than 25 FPS with an AR! Semi-autos, Especally ARs are notorious for velocity differences, which actually has me scratching my head.
(How do they do that?!)

I start a little low, about 10% and work up.
When I start shooting really tight strings, then they start to open up,
I stop and go back.
Others will tell you to load ahead to maximum, I used to, but over 40 years I've learned it's a waste of time and lead...
When you start getting well under an MOA, you are DONE!

Don't get me wrong,
I've had to settle for over an MOA, like 1.75 from time to time simply because I can't find a load that works with the barrel,
And no matter what I do to that barrel, what you get is what there is to get.
When I get one of those, someone wants it, and for the low, low price of around what I paid for it they can own it...
Most guys can't tell the difference anyway.

I only keep the tack drivers (or sentimental attachment, but I don't shoot them much).
I buy good barrels, I take a lot of time getting them a working right,
Sometimes you get lucky, other times you roll craps...

Its hard to get a really bad barrel anymore with CNC machining and ultra accurate QC equipment.
A laser is always going to be more accurate than 'Eyeball Mk I'
I don't know of anyone besides the military that Air Gauges barrels anymore.
I still do simply because I can't afford a laser QC equipment in a home shop.
Its still good to see if some import piece of crap is going to work at all, or to tell if a barrel is 'Shot Out', bulged, ect.
Basically a 'Go/NoGo' gauge anymore since factory barrels are so uniform these days.
Chambers on the other hand still get cut in at weird angles, get reamed instead of cut smoothly & polished, have all kinds of strange freebores...

I think they still pull a barrel of the correct caliber/bore and use a drill or mill to chew in the chamber. Its the only way I can think of to get a chamber misaligned with the bore centerline.
I have seen Remington cut chambers about 15 years ago,
Throw a barrel in a collet chuck in a lathe, centering on the OUTSIDE profile of the barrel,
NOT THE BORE,
Then cram a chamber reamer into the breech...
Screw on a reciever with bolt, try to chamber a head space dummy,
If the bolt closes, its sent out the door,
If not they chew a little more out and try again until the dummy chambers and the bolt closes...

I watched the guy do about 15 or 20 barrels and never once checked the reamer cutting edge. 
Made me sick, also explained why so many chambers are so screwed up,
Dull tools, force grinding instead of cutting, not lining the chamber reamer up with the bore, ect.

Nothing like trying to BEND a bullet around a corner into the barrel to improve accuracy!

There is a reason the Marine Corps inspects every component,
Hand fits every part to EXACT SPECIFICATION,
Everything lined up on the centerline of the bore,
Proper headspacing, chambers so smooth they have a mirror finish...
They also shoot 1,000+ yards with amazing regularity...

The Corps also builds each and every round specifically for that rifle.
A snipers life, or the life of other Marines depend on that rifle/ammo...
The Army buys, more or less (mostly less) the same rifle from Remington,
They shoot 800 yards max, while its not unusual for Marines to practice at 1,200 yards when they can find a range to accomodate them...

Just got to love a well built rifle produced by people that refuse to cut corners!
And you have to admire the guys that can routinely shoot well beyond the 'Limitations' of the rifle, the optics, the ammo, the weather conditions!
Those boys will always eat and drink free around me!
Picking up a check is the LEAST I can do for them.

I think I took a right angle tangent again. I'm tired and rambling....


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Back to the subject at hand, since UPS didnt make it today,
I'm trying to figure out how to trim the brass for length,
AND cut the primer pocket uniform.
In one process...

I've found a company that makes primer pocket cutters for a reasonable price.
The length cutter indexes off the shoulder,
So I have to resize before trim to length,
And the cutter bit has the correct angles ground into the cutting edges.
I just can't figure out how to clamp the brass, keep it from spinning without using 'Soft' jaws that might misalign the brass with the cutters.

The primer pocket cutter will accept a drill/pilot to align on the flash hole,
And trust me, not all flash holes are center or uniform size...
So a drill/pilot will solve that issue...

And I can align primer pocket tool with length cutter, that's not an issue.
The brass is delivered on a belt, so it will spin.
I thought of soft jaws to clamp the brass during machining,
But the jaws might misalign the brass with the cutters.

I don't want to spend a bunch of time building the machine just to find out that HDPE won't hold the brass tight enough for machining, letting the brass spin,
And 'Rubber' will grip, but misaligns the cases with the cutters.

I'll have to sleep on that one, been a 20 hour day again.
Maybe something will come to me...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

what about primer pocket swagging , it is supposed to uniform things well it could be a press function how to feed them might still be a challenge


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Single press, no problem, just another step.
'O' frame press, not an issue,
'C' frame presses, better be STOUT!
You are trying to swage 3/4 hard, high brass, pretty hard stuff.

All press swagers have a limitation,
They all have blunt noses, so if the primer pocket is shallow,
The punch bottoms out and the crimp doesn't get swagged.

Progressive presses have an issue with timing,
First station de-primes & sizes (standard sizing die),
The next station primes, and usually drops powder,
The primer crimp swager would have to go where the primer feed/powder dropper are.

I think the Dillon 1050 has a primer pocket attachment, but I likes to gouge cases.
At well over $1,000 and still manually operated, I don't think I'm interested in it just yet...

------

Since some of the military rounds are made in other countries, the primer depth isn't uniform.
Not only does the crimp NOT get swaged, the primer pocket is too shallow to properly seat US primers...

Cutters not only remove the crimp, radius the mouth of the primer pocket,
But the will cut a shallow pocket to depth for US primers.

I think my wife figured it out about an hour ago when she pointed out I hadn't eaten in 15 hours...

I was stuck on length cutters decending from above,
Primer cutters acending from below at the same time.

She pointed out both processes don't have to happen at once.
One, then the other...

Took me about an hour to use a chamber cutter to mill out HDPE clamps with exact case dimentions...
Now, when the case length cutters get here, 
I'll use the primer pocket cutters to precisely align and push the cases up into length cutters,
Pocket cutters keeping the cases from rotating,
Drop the trimmed to length cases down,
Clamp with HDPE, then start the pocket cutters turning.

Since the primer pocket cutters index off the bottom of the case, they can't cut too deep.

Pocket cutters retract, clamps open, belt moves the next 10 cases into place.
I use air cylinders for about everything, controlled pressure so you don't crush anything,
Easy to time & work with, and if something leaks, no hydraulic fluid mess.

I'm using air cylinders on the decapping dies and I have an air cylinder on the press.
Air is already handy...
I used air for the press since it won't over pressure the occasional flipped primer,
A case gets stuck in any of the dies, the press simply stops.
Same with a case getting cocked in the press hitting the top frame,
Or the case feeder throwing two cases, the press simply stops.

With electric, there is potential for an ignition source, and it would crush cases/break parts,
Hydraulic would most certainly crush/break things.

De-cap, anneal, tumble,
Then lube/resize, trim for length, uniform primer pocket, de-burr flash hole...
Either clean again or treat with anti-corrosion. Done.

When the cutters get here I'll know if HDPE will hold or not.
Its cheap, easy to work, so if it allows the case to spin, no big deal,
I'll look for something else.

I thought about aluminum, but I don't want to chance deforming sized cases.
I have EDM blanks in .223 to cut chambers with from another project,
So cutting metal isn't a problem, I just don't think metal clamps are such a good idea in this situation... I'd rather use something that would deform before the case does.

Since both cutters are self limiting, length off the shoulder of the case,
Primer hole off the bottom of the case, the clamping material doesn't have to be precise.

The last step would be de-burring the flash hole,
I have that figured out.
What ever clamp works with the primer pocket will most certainly work with a simple de-burr.
The companies making tools that detach from 'Screw Driver' handles have made this a snap!
Readily available tooling that screws or uses a hex drive makes tool changes a snap, and cheap too!
Carbide cutters for primer pockets between $8 & $12 each,
Primer pocket de-burring tools $4 each,
Decapping dies, $12 each,
The only expensive tool is the case length cutters,
3 cutting faces on each tool bit, $28 each.
Makes it easy & cheap to do a gang of 10 fairly easily!

eBay supplied the low speed/high torque motors, $8 each.

I have an almost unlimited access to air parts, the company I work for has dumped all kinds of prototype stuff here and left it, might as well find a use for it!
What else would I do with a dump truck full of air lines, fittings, switches, gauges,
Pistons, air bags, ect...? Been laying here for years...


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## Veedog (May 4, 2015)

Are you using the worlds finest trimmer, (WFT) for you trimming? And what about just using a simple endmill ground to exact spec to run in and ream every primer hole to depth and diameter? The WFT wears out your fingers after a while. I think the dillon case trimmer would be the way to go. Or a copy of it setup for your needs. I wish I didn't live so far I'd love to see your operation. Have you seen the prices on those older commercial cartridge loading machines, they've gone sky high.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I don't know about 'Worlds Finest Trimmer',
What I'm going to use, if it ever gets here, works much better than my Dillon trimmer.
Dillon chops them off square,
No taper, no deburring.

What I'm using not only cuts to length, but tapers inside & outside,
Deburring in the process...
I ordered one of their tool heads, figured out its just a fly cutter,
and ordered extra tool bits.

Since it indexes off a resized case shoulder, its precise and eliminates the inside/outside taper/deburring processes.
The ONE I have works great, waiting on the rest... UPS is a little slow during the 'Silly Season'.

As for primer pockets, flash holes, the the common carbide cutters on the market have pilot holes already drilled, so I'm just using a short drill in that pilot hole to uniform flash hole sizes, and correct the primer pocket in one process.

Then all that is left to do is gang deburr the INSIDE flash hole and the case will be up to bench rifle standards, more or less...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> I've been RE-reading the same article all day, trying to digest it.
> This guy took a 26" AR barrel, did velocity tests with same lot number factory ammo, about 10 brands,
> Then cut an inch off the barrel, crowned it, and did it all again,
> Down to just a few inches.
> ...



this sounds like a very interesting article , do you have a link or was it print


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

It's in print, I'm sure it has copyright, so I won't post it.
Some of the data would be OK, but I don't want to get anyone in trouble.

When you compair the velocity where the different .223 bullets break and create two wound channels, or the velocity where they tumble, its an eye opener!
The little 55 grain M193 55 grain isn't so bad,
The SS109 penetrator turns into a knitting needle,

Hollow points do or don't expand, or varmint bullets will or won't fragment...

This guy also gave a pretty good discription of what its like to have a short barrel go off with a full power rifle cartridge right in front of your face!
Nothing like over pressure that breaks blood vessels in your eyes and singed eyebrows!

When we first laid hands on the .50 BMG rifles in the Marines,
We would shoot as many rounds as you could stand.
Due to over pressure damage, in TRAINING, they are only allowed 12 to 20 rounds a day, every other day.

I know it wasn't foreseen, but I wish this guy would have used a pressure sensor so the over pressure with other calibers/barrel lengths.
If its breaking blood vessels in his eyes, its got to be reaching the over pressures close to a .50 BMG with a long barrel...

Its the high pressure impulse at your head, not the caliber or powder charge being fired.
SBRs look cool, but I can tell you from experence, a 9" or 10" barrel is BRUTIAL on the brain pan! Never hacked a barrel off to the chamber, just has to make it worse...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

YEAH!
My trim to length/taper tools finally got here!
Seems to work without glitches, just needs a little fine tuning.
This thing can be adjusted from outside, so you don't have to disassemble the entire gauging/cutting head, that should save a BUNCH of time!

Now waiting on the primer pocket cutting tools...
UPS couldn't be running any slower this time of year! They must be moving half the crap people bought for Christmas...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Considered this, then got spooked by the price,
Besides, it would be VERY hard to gang these for production.










Fly cutter shaft/arbor, which I can buy out of the tooling catalogs for about $12, 
The tool bit itself is the big deal, I don't have a grinder that can work that fine, so I'm not set up (yet) to produce these little pieces of carbide with the angles ground into them...










SO...

This uses a roller bearing/metal insert to guide/stop on the case neck, just like the high dollar, self driven unit does,
Since it's a free spinning/self stopping cutting head, it's easy to mount and a crap load less expensive...
These are easy to gang together and use single or just one drive motor to operate...










The bearing works as the shoulder indexing stop so the case CAN NOT be trimmed too long or short, and you don't need a 'Ram' to stop the case, no loose pivot points in a ram to upset your trim length...

The new version has 'Windows' to eject brass shavings, and makes it easier to adjust.

-----

Fly cutter arbor and tool bit, pretty simple stuff,










Bearing insert change, and fly cutter arbor/tool change would make caliber changes a snap, which is why I'm investing in this type of trimmer.

You will NEVER be as accurate with one of these,










And there isn't the second, third cutting processes to do, it's an all in one process...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Im still not happy with the case cleaner,
I'm looking for 5 gallons or more with a water tight lid, something in common use I can convert over to a tumbler.
I'm using a pressure canner now, it's not big enough and I have some ideas how to make it work better on the next go around...

Scratch that, I want to do 5 gallons of brass at a time, so 7 to 9 gallon, or larger, containers...
After about 5 gallons of brass, the pins, you start to deform cases in the tumbling action, so about 5 gallons at a time is about all I can get away with.

Know of anything in common use that has a water tight lid?
I'm thinking if I go really big, tilt the thing up like a cement mixer, I won't need a water tight lid and it will be easy to dump...

I also thought about the decapping process.
It occurs to me if I were to rotate the decapping rods, I could build flash hole de-burring right into the decapping process.

That would save an extra machine/process at the end of this adventure...
The question is, how do you limit the cutting on unknown base thickness brass?
it's usually 'Finger Feel' deburring the flash hole, 
By the time you apply enough pressure to decap a military crimp, you won't be applying too much pressure to the case bottom/cutter to deburr that flash hole...

I'll have to think about that one when this case milling process gets lined out.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I have the first cutting head set up, and I can see right away I'm going to make changes...
I'll keep the shoulder insert in the bearing idea, I like the idea of indexing off the shoulder like the chamber does.

The bearing supplied has too much play in it, I'll have to get a high tolerance bearing,
The set screw that holds the bearing in place has to go, it's warping the race the bearings ride in.
There is enough material provided to cut threads and use a compression cap to hold the bearing in place.
I'm looking or lathe cut tolerances on every case, not just cut to length more or less,
And correct inside/outside tapers more or less...

The compression cap and high tolerance bearing will make things MUCH more accurate.

I have carbon EDM blanks for ED machining chambers that can cut shoulders in bearing inserts, so I think I might tighten up those tolerances while I'm at it, just machine new bearing inserts while I'm firing up the lathe/EDM anyway...

Off to the bearing store to find some high tolerance bearings!


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

what about a 30 gallon drum with gasket for the lid , and make studs that protrude through the lid , with big wing nuts to close it up sort like an all American canner 

then tip it over on a set of wheels and drive the wheels with a belt reduction and jack shafts to reduce speed


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Not a bad idea, but I can get a drum with a water proof band clamp.
There is a place down the street that has 30 & 50 stainless steel drums along with plain steel.
That would be cheap enough to try!

Got high tolerance bearings, same size as the ones that come with the trim tools, so now its down to just how the bearing gets clamped into place.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

OK, the 60 RPM motors for primer pocket cutting were a $240 mistake.
15 RPM works much better.
60 RPM works fine for length trimming. Ganged, 1.5 HP through 20:1 reduction box gives me 10 trimmers that work great,
Also powers the belt quite well with some pulley reduction.

60 RPM wears the primer pocket cutters out way too fast, and are hard to keep lubricated.

A cement mixer drum from Horror Freight looks like its going to work for a high volume tumbler once it gets the inside vanes trimmed down to about 1.5" and gets some bearings that will live for more than a week...

Completely smoked the annealing machine. Should have put the top on the case before operation, brass sorter dropped brass in it and shorted things out.
Good thing it was built with salvaged parts or I'd be really out a pile of money...
Pretty impressive smoke show when the MOSFETS let go!
I let the magic smoke out, no workee any more!

I've come up with an idea, don't know if it will work,
When I de-cap, I'm going to 'Try' to de-burr the flash hole inside the case.
That will mean a decapping rod that rotates, or rotating the case during de-capping,
I'm using commercial 'Universal' de-capping dies, so this might get a little tricky trying to make a champerfing cutting edge AND rotate the rod in a commercial guide die...
I'll have to think about that one since the rods are a little small and not all that strong.


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## Veedog (May 4, 2015)

Jeephammer, did you ever get your contraption built and running? The annealer and trimmer I'm wondering about?


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