# Energy for a Small Yurt?



## th_Wolverine (Apr 15, 2013)

Hey all, I've been kinda trying to get my 10 year plan together recently and one of the options as I begin homesteading has been to first save up most of the money for my land so I wont have a huge amount of debt for a long period of time. And I'll do what I have to for my dream, but I'd rather not live in a trailer for a few years while I build my big house. So I thought about getting a wooden Yurt (35' diameter, 10' wall) from _SmilingWoodenYurts_ . The reviews were decent and I think I could work with it for a total setup cost of about $5000. Its about the same square footage of my apartment now. 

But one thing I was thinking about was "How am I going to get electricity?" I would eventually like to be totally off grid anyways, but till I get to that point how do I supply the needs of my homestead? The answer seemed simple enough; either get the electric company hook-up, or find another means.

Now I'm at least 3 years from having enough to buy said land, so I'm not sure on details of wattage needed and all that stuff. I know I will have a washer, a small fridge, probably 5-10 low watt light-bulbs for night (windows and skylight for the day), and maybe a small air conditioner unit. 

I was thinking solar, but I really have no idea how much that would take and cost. In theory, the yurt would be in an open glade with a good decent amount of sunlight year round, till winter. And since the roof is round and facing the sky at all times, It seems like it would be a good setup. 

So does anyone have any ideas? Places on the web I can look to get a crash course? Thanks to all!


----------



## MichaelK! (Oct 22, 2010)

Ahh, starry eyed dreamers again. 

First question, have you ever lived in a tent before? I'm not talking about a weekend camping trip, but months at a time? I have, and I would very much try to avoid ever to have to do it ever again! As soon as I see the word "yurt", the first thing that pops into my head is "clueless nubie". You'll start to figure that out the morning you see mouse droppings in your coffee cup!

When I read "yurt" with "air conditioning" my eyes really roll.

I'm sorry, I really don't want to be mean to you, but have a clue. Homesteading is hard, neverending work, and you wan't spend much time "communing with nature".

Don't expect you'll find a property with an "open glade year-round sunlight". If you want a real plan, I'd say buy a smallish trailer you can outfit with a woodstove, then start cutting a splitting wood as early in the spring as you can after finding a peice of land. Get a 5-6 kw generator for construction and plan on using a smallish 200-500 watt solar system with batteries to provide light when not running the generator.

Plant trees for your orchard before you start construction, because the best day to plant a tree is yesterday! Once you've been on the land for a little while you'll have a feel for where to best fit the house you're going to build.


----------



## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Mounting panels to the roof of a yurt would be a challenge to say the least. All panels should face south at the proper seasonal tilt or be on a tracker. Other directions will not yield nearly as much output, even if if direct sun for part of the day. I would suggest mounting panels on a ground mount near your yurt.

No matter what you are living in, air conditioning is pretty much beyond the capabilities of a modest solar system. Swamp cooler may be feasible if you can stand the increased humidity there.

Nothing wrong with a yurt as long as you live the yurt lifestyle and don't expect it to be like a little house connected to the grid. 

Think through heating, both when you are there to stoke the fire and when you are gone for days at a time.

TV ?

Internet?

Phone?

Water? 

Hot water?

Sewage disposal?

Insurance?

Storing valuables somewhere other than a tent?

Canvas repairs?

You've got time, plan everything out, be prepared for small failures and don't fixate on your plan of the moment. It will change as you refine it prior to implementation.

Enjoy the adventure.

Don


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

The good way to go . . .plop down $20,000 for a real system that you can use from start to finish...

One or two of those cheapo's harbor freight $149.95 'kits' are good for next to nothing.
A small camp trailer far better than a yurt.............


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

You've got three years to do your homework. Don't let anyone dampen your dreams, but listen to good advice. I've lived comfortably in a tent situation for extended periods, but winter sucks in a tent. The yurts I've been in are much better than a tent. Check on prices of rough cut lumber in the area you want to buy in. I built my 16x16 board and batten cabin for less than $5000. It stills needs porches, decks and a 12' extension on the North end, but it is livable and comfortable. I'd forget about the AC, unless you are on the grid.


----------



## Allen15 (Apr 18, 2013)

Hello. It sounds like you're preparing to bite off quite a bit, and maybe more than you are aware of, but if you're serious, I'll try to be as helpful as possible.

I am also planning for my retirement, and wish to build a low-maintenance energy efficient home that is off-grid capable, if not completely off the grid.

Saving up the money for the land up front will do you well, no matter where you decide to build or when, so that is an excellent idea, if you can maintain the discipline to pull it off.

What is it about living in a trailer that offends you? How comfortable do you expect to be with any alternative? For that matter, if you're truly building your dream home full-time, how much time will you actually spend inside this shelter, while you're awake, barring weather too bad to work on your dream?

Is it the relative prices for a trailer vs. a Yurt? What exactly do you get (& what don't you get) for that difference?

I have a feeling that were you to go with a Yurt, you're more likely to be wondering "Where am I going to get my heat" from in the winter than anything about electricity...

There is something to be said for short-term camping on your land for a few weeks, just to try to get a better feel for where exactly you may rather build your house, as you probably should see your building site in dry & wet weather, so you have a better idea of what battles you may be facing with drainage, etc. Camping without heat in the short term isn't likely to be too bad, but when it gets cooler in the mornings, it will be much harder to get out of that sleeping bag and become productive, let alone bathe oneself vs. sleeping in and staying cozy, but that won't get your dream home built.

(Assuming you're doing nearly all the labor to save money?)

Something else to consider may be an Earthship. An official Earthship isn't likely to terribly cheap, but then again, you don't have to pay for Mike Renolds' company to come out and build it for you, you can build your own. Check out www.earthship.com for more info on that. All are invited to copy his designs for the good of the planet, just not to call them Earthships if they aren't officially sanctioned. By design, an Earthship will be primarily made from recycled materials, provide its own heating & cooling, collect its own water, treat its own sewage, produce its own electricity, and grow (some) foods to support the residents.

Even if you don't build one, there are many useful ideas to be found within about green living. I don't personally wish to live in one long-term, but I think they'd make a great chicken coop for an extreme cold climate  They tend to be designed for near self-sustaining (I say near because even when the architect tried a challenge to live in their flagship model for a week, he was finding the food production to be a bit slim for extended use) lifestyle off-grid, and are trending toward becoming more affordable (by making design choices & shortcuts that one may or may not be willing to accept).

An Earthship can be built inside of 2 months, if your area doesn't encumber you with codes and/or building permit requirements.

If you're set on the idea of a Yurt, you may be interested in this idea from a couple that did just that for a temporary home whilst building their permanent home: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fisher...TOKEN=FW7N-GNVE-DMT0-O8CC-QSLG-K7WG-QRJ7-LRIN

But you should also look into "Rocket Mass Heater" before you try to duplicate those results.

No matter what, you are most likely to be in for some time of extended hardship, because building a home you can be proud of is REALLY HARD WORK, or everyone would be doing them casually, so in the short term, you're likely to be miserable at times. Unless you're getting a trailer, forget about the idea of running an air conditioner, it's just not practical. The amount of money you'd have to spend on your "solar" system to make it work is enough to pay someone else to build your house for you or more.

Realistically, if you have skill, time, & patience in that area, you could make your own solar panels, but in a real off-grid system, your biggest expense is going to be in electrical storage, aka batteries, so for initial use, getting a few golf-cart batteries and 4-6 250 watt panels with an MPPT charge controller and inverter to keep your cordless tools recharged, run a laptop, run refrigeration, & lights in the early morning/late evening.

On the topic of refrigeration, to conserve precious power, it will be best to buy a chest freezer, and put it on a timer circuit or external thermostat, because that will be a much more energy efficient refrigerator than any dorm or upright small refrigerator would be, and would be something you could actually run from a small solar array. (Probably going to need to be washing your clothes by hand at first, too...)

Depending upon where you build, you may only have 4 hours of truly usable sunlight, for power generation, so you also need to find out what the insolation factor is in the area you are considering buying land in - it will be based on both climate & latitude. Take that into account before buying ANYTHING solar with high expectations, because the solar sales force will only show you the best production you can hope to get from their products on a perfectly sunny day at high noon!

In all reality, you may find that at least for construction, you will either have to pay for utility power delivery, or run off a generator. If you're going to have utility power delivered anyway, you might as well enjoy the savings of doing so up front, because at least at start, you aren't likely to save money by going off-grid, and getting dried-in faster will both improve your standard of living, and cost you less in the process.

Good luck with your plans as they evolve.

Allen

ps. Please don't try to put real solar panels on the roof of a Yurt 



th_Wolverine said:


> Hey all, I've been kinda trying to get my 10 year plan together recently and one of the options as I begin homesteading has been to first save up most of the money for my land so I wont have a huge amount of debt for a long period of time. And I'll do what I have to for my dream, but I'd rather not live in a trailer for a few years while I build my big house. So I thought about getting a wooden Yurt (35' diameter, 10' wall) from _SmilingWoodenYurts_ . The reviews were decent and I think I could work with it for a total setup cost of about $5000. Its about the same square footage of my apartment now.
> 
> But one thing I was thinking about was "How am I going to get electricity?" I would eventually like to be totally off grid anyways, but till I get to that point how do I supply the needs of my homestead? The answer seemed simple enough; either get the electric company hook-up, or find another means.
> 
> ...


----------



## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Are there year around streams in your target area? Off-grid micro-hydro beats solar in every way. If so, look there first. We live off grid, and it works, but I'd SURE like to have a small generator working 24-7.


----------



## th_Wolverine (Apr 15, 2013)

Much thanks to everyone! See, I'm not really into the "communeing with nature" stuff, I just don't wanna owe nobody nothn. The Yurts I'm talking about are not actually tents, the company I'm looking at makes basically a modernized yurt, on that is built out of wood like a cabin, with a loft. I think the roof is metal, I'm not sure I'm waiting to get some brochures.

And yes, I have the time and that's why I'm trying to get all my homework done  I've grown up in both worlds, living a time in the city and also on the rural route, and I have to say, I'd take the simple, hard work I get on the sheep farm any day of the week.

On the topic however, i have to say i am quite enlightened! I always kind-of viewed generators as not having a ton of power and using up a ton of gas. But thats why I joined the forum, I have no idea how this kindof stuff works, and I want to know everything I can going into it


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Generators; The Yamaha and Honda 1-2 and 3000 watt inverter generators are a very good way to go .
They are quiet and sip fuel.
They are a night and day difference to the super elcheapo screamers people buy for $199.95....
But -you- have to determine your life style demands for electric.
If you can not live with out a dishwasher or electric clothes dryer or electric stove . . . . .well then your wallet better be mighty thick.........for the gosh awful big generator you need.....

One thing I enjoy reading here on HT is that there is a growing number of folks who realize the benefits of living simpler lives . . . . . . .There for less demand for electric . . .smaller generators . . . .less fuel to run them . . . . 

rant off...................


----------



## Allen15 (Apr 18, 2013)

Even with a metal roof, if it is conical, then only 1 vertical strip of solar panels would be able to get optimal sun at a time, depending upon the position of the sun, & the roof of any yurt is still not likely to be large enough to provide enough power for you to do what you'd end up wanting to do with it. You will probably get better results/more power from polar mounts that you can turn throughout the day, so at least all the panels have a chance to be optimized as many times as you wish to bother turning them.

Higher up cost scale, you can install automatic tracking on polar mounts, so you wouldn't have to manually move them, although Mike Reynolds of Earthship fame ended up moving away from movable or polar mounts completely over the years on the premise that the maintenance costs weren't really worth it in the long run - it made more sense to just add more panels at the start, and mount them at a fixed angle that was more closely optimized for the winter sun angle than the summer sun angle.

I don't agree with everything he says or does for my own tastes, but whatever direction he's going tends to be optimized for economy in pricing, as his main focus of late has been to make Earthships as affordable as possible (I'm just either wanting more than the base models, or willing to work for more, & have skills to do more without having to pay someone else to do it for me).

By the way, it is possible, & not uncommon for an alternative energy system to have multiple inputs, and the better charge controllers are designed to work with wind, solar, micro-hydro, and can also have a generator input too, so you could conceivably start out with a smaller solar array, and have the generator run to top off your batteries if/when you didn't collect enough power through other means - & your generator wouldn't need to run 24/7 

Micro-hydro generators may not have a lot of power, but running 24/7, they could make for a very effective battery charger/recharger. Standard fueled generators make as much power as you're willing to buy them for, so if your generator doesn't make enough power, it's because you didn't buy a large enough one; they come in sizes large enough to have 16-cylinder diesel engines running them, and everything else down to that 2 Kw gas model...

If the idea of air-conditioning is going to be appealing in your area, you are still likely to be better off with a trailer than a yurt, though, even if you're just looking for a place to cool off and take a break from construction.

Check your brochures & see whether the tradeoff is worth your bothering, but beware that their brochures are meant to sell you on their product...


----------



## Allen15 (Apr 18, 2013)

To add to that, if you're shopping for generators, and hope to use them for your construction phase too, make sure you look at the power requirements for ALL of the tools you'll need to be running at any given time to build, or you might buy too small of a generator, which would be a show-stopper on the job site. You'll possibly find that an air compressor has high intermittent power demands, but is still invaluable when building a house, plus several other big power tools, like a cross-cut slide miter saw, table saw, and so on, and so forth...

Even if you're not ready to buy tools (or rent them, although for the time you'd have them, it might make sense to buy most of them?), go check out their power needs before buying a generator, & if you don't understand the power ratings, & how they add up, get help.

There's nothing quite as disappointing as racing against a storm to get another phase of your construction done, and finding that you and your crew are pausing to wait for the air compressor to fill the tank, or that you can only use one tool at a time because of lack of sufficient power :0




Jim-mi said:


> Generators; The Yamaha and Honda 1-2 and 3000 watt inverter generators are a very good way to go .
> They are quiet and sip fuel.
> They are a night and day difference to the super elcheapo screamers people buy for $199.95....
> But -you- have to determine your life style demands for electric.
> ...


----------



## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Look closely at the starting surge of tools. My table saw, air compressor, and tile saw each draw a lot to get going. My little generator (3,500 watts) can barely start one of them and probably is doing some damage to stuff, so I use a 8,000 watt generator when using those tools. Don't go small on a construction generator or you may burn up some expensive tools and/or your generator.


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

My post above was for powering the house---not for all those building GRUNT tools......
My batteries and inverter provide the extra grunt when starting the likes of my air compressor---which the Yamaha 2000i could not start.
Same with my 220vac well pump.


----------



## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

You might want to look at this;
http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/list/40/5937


----------

