# The farrowing crate vs. farrowing hut/pen dispute



## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

Well I've just finishing my feb. farrowings, I kept back 17 sows, 10 this month.... have 9 sows farrowed and one that just won't let go of them and the rest in about 3 weeks.... 

I have gone through and completely reworked the old farrowing barn with new bumper boards, and automatic waters in as many of the stalls as I could get too before I had to move the sows... this set-up has some boards that were used for sows.... some say as for back as the 50's.....

This is my first go completely with stalls, in the past i used stalls for mommas that were still nursing pigs but too young to wean and moved them out of a crate.....

The numbers are dismal.... These sows average 14-15 born alive and wean 13-14.... that is over large groups of sows..... 10 is a cull sow....

the pens have with 9 sows so far a 9-10 pig average.... with all loses in the first three days.... _Yes I understand that most outdoor operation are at the 9-10 range_,_ and yes I understand that piglets will die_

We where going to build a new barn for the day - old heifer's, now we are going to build a slat system farrowing run....the cows get the stalls

the sows are using about 2/3 thirds of a round bale in bedding @ $40 a roll 

electrity is not near that expensive and I can do my work in the warm and cool.

Part of my decision to use pens was that the farrwoing crates are so upsetting to people and I have so much business traffic through the farm, *I'm over that now.... hate me!!!!! *I'm not goin to watch pigs die to be green and PC....

My old barn was a 60's design and structurally weak and insufficent in many ways.... I'm open to a hybrid turn out system with communal nursing, but the crate are coming out of storage.

*I think there needs to be an open discussion on why crates are inhumane but low weaning averages are acceptable... low weaning numbers = high piglet mortality....*

100% surival should be the goal....... 95% should be a reality.


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## PlowGirl (Nov 16, 2005)

I have no opinion on whether a farrowing crate is inhumane or not. I don't use them strictly on the basis of inputs. Keeping hogs in a barn has much higher overhead costs than pasturing. You've got the barn cost, upkeep and maintenance, labor, etc. I'm willing to accept up to 20% mortality due to my lowered inputs. It works well for me. YMMV


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

I struggle with this issue. Regardless of which stand you take you are against the welfare of one portion of the system. 

If you say crates are great then you are implying that you don't care about the free movement of the sow, prefering to protect the piglets. 

If you say you want the sow to be free, but accept a death loss of the piglets you are choosing the sow over the piglets.

We farrowed in crates, but housed the sows in paddocks. For a small stock holder this seems to be a workable situation, especially if you don't have ladn available for pastures.

Unfortunately, with the recent Animal Rights wins in Arizona, Florida, and California the question may be answered for us by non-farm people swayed by sensationalism spread by the likes of PETA, HSUS, Farm Sanctuary and other radical anti-human groups.

Jim


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

> We farrowed in crates, but housed the sows in paddocks. For a small stock holder this seems to be a workable situation, especially if you don't have ladn available for pastures.
> 
> Unfortunately, with the recent Animal Rights wins in Arizona, Florida, and California the question may be answered for us by non-farm people swayed by sensationalism spread by the likes of PETA, HSUS, Farm Sanctuary and other radical anti-human groups.


The running of sows loose has always been my goal, I have never had the barn space to keep them indoors...as to the legality.... yes, the time may come, but until then... the prices don't make to pratical..... I'm going to make conservative purchases..... and do most of the labor myself.....

I think I can pay for the addition in saved piglets in about six months....


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## 3kidsomy (Jan 6, 2008)

All i know is i would not want to be treated that way and i don't think an animal should be either. Out of 56 piglets my sow has crushed 2, one on the farm she was raised, she farrowed in a stall with a rail and corner creep, and one with me in a 10x10 hut. Not sure what those odds would be for someone that raises commercially or at a high volume like you redhogs. It just doesn't seem right to me to not let them move for that long of time....if it was for 2-3 days till the piglets were aware of big mamma coming, then i'd be ok with that, that accommodates both the sow and the piglets i think.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

3kidsomy said:


> All i know is i would not want to be treated that way and i don't think an animal should be either.



This quote is why the Anti-Human groups have so much power! They put animals on equal footing as humans. This anthropmorphism then clouds the argument with emotions and people comparing themselves to animals when it is incorrect.

I don't care if you use crates, pens, huts, hoop barns, pasture, of let them farrow in your bedroom, just don't get on a self righteous horse to limit my use of production tools that are proven to improve the viability of livestock production because it hurts your feelings.

Jim


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## Missy M (Mar 2, 2007)

I lived on a farm years ago and we farrowed in pens. We rarely lost a piglet. I'm suspecting your pens are too small. Most piglet loses, especially in the first three days, are due to the sow laying on the piglets. Each stall had a small opening on the front, that had a board nailed over it. After the third day if all were doing well this was remove so the piglets could run in the hallway between stalls and "visit" the other pens. The sows were let out twice a day to go the bathroom and feed. Also check for starvation. In large litters like your getting it's not uncommon to need to provide some extra milk in a bowl, because only the largest and more aggressive babies will get a teet. Most sows don't have enough teets to accomadate that many piglets.
(sorry about the lousy spelling)


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

> I lived on a farm years ago and we farrowed in pens. We rarely lost a piglet. I'm suspecting your pens are too small. Most piglet loses, especially in the first three days, are due to the sow laying on the piglets. Each stall had a small opening on the front, that had a board nailed over it. After the third day if all were doing well this was remove so the piglets could run in the hallway between stalls and "visit" the other pens. The sows were let out twice a day to go the bathroom and feed. Also check for starvation. In large litters like your getting it's not uncommon to need to provide some extra milk in a bowl, because only the largest and more aggressive babies will get a teet. Most sows don't have enough teets to accomadate that many piglets.


These pens are the same pens that have been used in past generations, when litters were just smaller....In the US the number of weaned pigs has gone up by 3 in 10 years.....

I just don't think, the modern genetics of sows can keep up their numbers in pens.... As to starvation... Thay have never had problem before, I will cull a sow that dosn't milk well....

The pens are the same, the genetics are vastly different....I just can't go back to the old numbers.... I am willing to use pens, just not the old efficiency.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

RedHogs said:


> I just don't think, the modern genetics of sows can keep up their numbers in pens.... As to starvation... Thay have never had problem before, I will cull a sow that dosn't milk well....



Another issue I have noticed is the lack of attentiveness and reaction by sows. I continually watch sows laying on a squeeling piglet with no care in the world that the pig is squeeling. 

Jim


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

I personally don't like crates, but I *do not* want laws making them illegal. 

My uncle, years ago, had the barns and crates, and was losing way too many pigs. He turned the sows out into the woods to nest and farrow, and lost _fewer_ pigs.

Pig mortality is a trait that can be bred away from. If you have an inattentive sow that lays on pigs, cull her. Keep the sows that don't lose pigs, and keep their daughters.

One mistake that I think the farming industry as a whole has made for years is being production driven instead of profit driven. Higher weaning numbers or higher finished pounds does not automatically equal higher profits. How much did your inputs have to go up in order to gain the higher production? If you can wean fewer pigs and finish fewer pounds with dramatically lower inputs, profits may very well be higher than with the higher production numbers.


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## 3kidsomy (Jan 6, 2008)

#1 Lazy J........it doesn't hurt my feelings, i just think it is wrong to make something lay there for days to weeks on end being a ---- milk machine, that to me is NOT natural behavior. If that is what i wanted then i'd buy my pork in the store. #2 I didn't jump on any horse, i never said anything about making it illegal or making it so you couldn't go about your business as you do, don't jump to conclusions.
Also i don't put myself on the same level as animals, but what I do has to be okay with me.
I will definitely agree with you on the attentiveness and reaction of sows, i have pushed my sow over a few times because she was lying on one and it couldn't get free, and she just was going on like nothing was happening.

I don't like crates, but if you use them then fine, that's your right.


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## Jennifer L. (May 10, 2002)

How long does it take a piglet to figure out how not to get laid on by the sow? Can't be that long, is it? 

Jennifer


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

Jennifer L. said:


> How long does it take a piglet to figure out how not to get laid on by the sow? Can't be that long, is it?
> 
> Jennifer


In my experience, it's usually after 3 days or so the piglets get quick enough to get out of the way. A lot depends on the sow though. Some sows just flop down with no warning. A good sow will give the grunt warning and slowly ease herself down. Heather


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

I agree, I don't like crates but it isn't the government's business to make them illegal. I don't use farrowing crates. Our sows build nests of hay. It is about 7' long, their body, with the middle packed down hard and the edges fluffy. This probably acts similar to the bumper boards you have. The piglets tend to stay inside the nest until they are nimble.

On the sows not being attentive, that may be a genetics problem, overweight or something else. I have read that sows that were bred for confinement and farrow crates had some of the nesting characteristics bred out of them because in a crate those same behaviors become a problem and show up as bar biting (gathering) and other issues. Another issue might be over weight sows flopping down. I have a movie I shot recently of one of our sows taking about three minutes to lie down. She slowly eases her way downward in the nest, a piglet squeals, she eases backup, the piglet moves, she starts down again... until she is finely lying down and the piglets are nursing. This is the behavior I see in good sows. I have culled the few sows who didn't do this. We virtually never get crushing.

I'm surprised at how much hay your sows are using, RedHogs. Ours don't go through nearly that much. One thing that might be different is we're dry-cold most of the winter with just a short mud season on each end. During the mud season hay usage does go up but it is a short time for us. You're in a warmer climate and may have higher moisture issues.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://HollyGraphicArt.com/
http://NoNAIS.org


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## tinman1 (Jan 20, 2009)

I have to agree with Walter.Most of my sows take extreme care not to lay on the piglets,I try to keep that sows gilts and cull any that flop down.Being overweight is also a problem,but we do not free feed, which is much more time consuming,but we have a lot more control over their weight, and we check on them several times a day..I also do not believe in crates,but dont think that decision should not be made by the government, or a group of people who have never even been around a farm longer than to sneak a camera in and take a few minutes of film.....(just my 2 cents worth)


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

since I first posted I have had to muck the pens for the 1st time, *yeah.... I going back to crates.....*. I'm using expensive hay and working 3x's harder to raise 3-4 fewer pigs per litter.... farrowing crates cost about $125 per unit.... floors can be built on the cheap and the manure is then readily usable....

I'm figuring about $3500 dollars for a 12 stall farrowing barn..... I have the crates, gas furnace, fans and my excavation equipment....30 - 40 market hogs will pay for the barn.... or the *saved* form 10 litters..... 

I have been doing alot of reading on websites of greg g, many of Sustain Ag. articles...and all of these farmers farrowing in pens or outdoors are weaning the same number as me..... walter's website says he is averaging 10...... the dutch loose farrowing experiments are only doing 10.5.... and that is with professional handlers and 200,000 dollar genetics..... crates are averaging 13.5 - 14 pigs.....

My sows may be smashing some, but the "attentive sows" and I don't believe people aren't losing pigs are only averaging 10ish.... 10 seems to be the wall the people are hitting and have been for years.... yeah some litters are bigger but over 100 sows, you get a real good sense of your herd average....


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

RedHogs, we don't bother mucking pens. Rather the bedding builds up in bedding places. Eventually that turns into a compost pile when the animals go elsewhere. Winter vs summer spaces, etc. This saves a lot of labor and a lot of hay since the bedding builds up to a deep pack that provides warmth from below. This again may be a climate difference thing.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://HollyGraphicArt.com/
http://NoNAIS.org


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## amylou62 (Jul 14, 2008)

3kidsomy said:


> .if it was for 2-3 days till the piglets were aware of big mamma coming, then i'd be ok with that, that accommodates both the sow and the piglets i think.


. 

We don't have crates per say, but we do have little pens inside the barn with a protected corner and bumper rails for piglet safety. We leave the doors to the pens open so the sows can come and go as they please. After I cut the boars at about two weeks, we turn them out with the other pigs on the pasture. You can use a good combination of both and still have happy, healthy pigs.

:1pig: Happy Pig Farm


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## wally (Oct 9, 2007)

you as a hog producer can use what works for you..if crates were not allowed it would do away with the large corp pork farms that ship 5000 per week out and perhaps the small farmer could raise and sell a few hogs at a profit. just my thoughts


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## stoneunhenged (Sep 22, 2007)

A good compromise is to use farrowing huts in a free-range set-up with guard rails on the interior to protect the piglets.


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

> you as a hog producer can use what works for you..if crates were not allowed *it would do away with the large corp pork farms that ship 5000 per week out and perhaps the small farmer could raise and sell a few hogs at a prof*it. just my thoughts


yeah, and if the earth stopped spinning we would all have enough hours in the day.....

without farrowing crates....or with farrowing crates.... pork is a commodity..... the price is controlled by supply and demand..... the big farms would just add 20% more sows and raise the cost of pork a few pennies per pound.....

all future farming is corporate driven....that's reality.....small farming for resonable profit.... a.k.a.......nice warm and roomy house with health insurance, college fund and two nice cars.....that requires farming by volume....

crates or no crates.... I can go either way..... given this market, I can't justify working harder to produce fewer pigs.... If they are outlawed, I'm still on equal footing with everyone else....


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