# Fourth swarm from the same hive this month



## AsaBSpade (Jun 23, 2009)

My wife installed a four pound package into an eight frame deep hive on April 4th. We added an eight frame deep super on May 2nd.

The hive swarmed on June 6th; they went about fifty feet up in a redwood tree but we were able to climb up the thick limbs and catch the swarm in a sack and dump it into an empty hive (with 2 frames of honey and 6 frames of foundation).

The hive swarmed a second time on June 12. This time the swarm was 60 feet up the tree and we decided to try a more passive approach; my wife built a shelf about ten feet up between the tree they were in and an adjacent tree and placed a hive with a few frames of honey in it. A few days later I observed the swarm move over to the neighbors yard and take up a new location only 20 feet up; we were able to capture that swarm as well once my wife got home from work.

We put a queen excluder and another 8 frame deep super on top of the original hive to give them more room to expand figuring they must be swarming because the hive was so full. Over the next week I observed that only a few bees made it through the excluder; they seemed to have no interest expanding into the new super.

On June 17th the hive swarmed a third time. That swarm is still in the redwood tree about 60 feet up as of this posting; we have run out of empty boxes to capture them in.

We removed the excluder and a few days afterward the bees still hadn't moved up into the empty super so we switched around a couple frames, pulling two mostly full frames up into the third story and placing a two of the frames of foundation down into the second.

Yesterday, June 22nd, the original hive swarmed a fourth time. This swarm is now sitting about 50 feet up in that same redwood; about ten feet below the other swarm.

My question is: ***? Is this normal behavior for some hives? The hive seems strong and full of bees, are they just taking advantage of their strength to split off? Are they unhappy in the original hive? My father suggested that they might not like the old foundation that we have been using but they built on it readily enough in the beginning. Will the hive stop swarming and get down to business making us some honey? Should we be looking for queen cells and removing them? I've been afraid to leave the hive without a queen because I haven't been able to find one when doing inspections.

Thanks for your help,
Asa


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Helps to know where your at(state at least).

4 pound package on drawn comb or foundation?

Was the second deep drawn comb or foundation?

Pitch the queen excluder into a dark corner of the barn.

Try setting the empty hive on the bottom for a week to get them drawing comb. Remember they like to work from top to bottom.

No it isn't normal behavior. They seem to keep running out of room in that 8 frame set up fast. Now they are out of room and keep swarming.

Stop looking for the queen, Look instead for eggs in the center of the cells and a good pattern. Look for hatched eggs in cells, looks like the bottom of the cell has milk in it for the lack of a better term.
You can look for queen cells and remove them but the girls tend to hide some we don't see.

You are not going to get much honey this year till you get the colony some room, don't be stingy with the boxes.


 Al


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## Iddee (Sep 25, 2005)

I agree with al other than one small point. I have never destroyed a good queen cell in 30 plus years of beekeeping. Not on purpose, anyway. It is the best way I know to end up queenless. If you want to remove one or more, start a nuc with them and combine later if you don't want the extra hives. They will swarm even after you remove the queen cells, thus leaving the hive with no possible way to make a queen.

PS. Most beekeeping is local to your area, so please put your location in your profile, or we may give you bad info without knowing it.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Personally I feel the best way to deal with a colony that is about to swarm isn't removingthe queen cells either. It is best to make up a new colony with the old queen and a bunch of frames with bees and brood. Then add to the colony about to swarm empty frames either drawn comb or frames of foundation.

 Al


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## AsaBSpade (Jun 23, 2009)

We started out with four pounds of bees and their queen, dumped them into a deep box with eight frames of foundation. When we have added supers they have been with frames and foundation.

We are in Fort Bragg, California; about three miles in from the ocean. We are out of the fog but have mild temperatures year round. It is 62 F today.

My father used to have hundreds of hives and do pollination up and down the pacific coast but foul brood got him out of the business in the 80s.

He built all his own hives and had leftover parts from when he was in business. We are using the eight frame boxes that he built but did not use. They are clean and never had foul brood bees in them.

It does leave us in a quandary when it comes to buying parts though, since none of the major suppliers (that I know of) carry eight frame equipment. Mostly we end up building our own parts.

We will be getting another half dozen boxes this weekend when I go visit family. We had enough boxes to give each of the two hives we started with three deeps each but that all changed when we started catching swarms in the empties.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Brushy Mountain sells a lot of 8 frame equipment.

what waqs the foundation? wax or plastic?

 Al


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

AsaBSpade said:


> We had enough boxes to give each of the two hives we started with three deeps each but that all changed when we started catching swarms in the empties.


I LOVE it when swarms move into empties! They did that on land we own outside of town: I believe I will go and get them next week: the pickup is in the shop! I enjoy my bees but I do not want a hive in the car with me! I prefer the pickup for this!

It is a wonderfull-looking place to keep bees but I have lost every hive I have tried to keep out there so I have decided to move every swarm to my home. If I get too many I will sell them: there is a good market for bees here! 

The land I own outside of town has a tiny creek with plenty of sweet clover, but, I have lost too many hives there. The last one was the final straw: it was tipped over! I suspect that the neighbors horse got out again, she is ALWAYS doing that! And a hive is at a good height to scratch against...

Still most years I pick up free bees. This year I had THOUGHT I was not going to get any, but, they are there now and so they need taking home and feeding!


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## AsaBSpade (Jun 23, 2009)

Wax reinforced with wire, Al.

I looked in the swarmy hive yesterday and found more sealed queen cells and way more drone cells than worker cells.

Is it possible that I have a laying worker that is running new queens out of the hive? The drones are plenty big so they seem to my inexperienced eyes to be queen laid. Might I have a virgin queen that the workers are trying to replace but who is running the new queens off? It doesn't all make sense because There must be a fertile queen that laid the eggs that have grew into the swarm queens. It has been 21 days since the original queen left so all her eggs should be bees by now...

The hive is drawing out wax on the frames that I put in the middle super at least, and the hive is still loaded with honey in the original two boxes of frames.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

The old queen leaves with the swarm, leaving the sealed queen cell/s. Since the queen cells are sealed the old queen is probably gone.

I hope that this new queen lays more workers than drones!


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## UUmom2many (Apr 21, 2009)

AsaBSpade said:


> Wax reinforced with wire, Al.
> Is it possible that I have a laying worker that is running new queens out of the hive? The drones are plenty big so they seem to my inexperienced eyes to be queen laid. Might I have a virgin queen that the workers are trying to replace but who is running the new queens off? It doesn't all make sense because There must be a fertile queen that laid the eggs that have grew into the swarm queens. It has been 21 days since the original queen left so all her eggs should be bees by now...
> .



I know nothing of bees but read bc i know nothing and want to learn, but for some reason this just had me picturing an insect version of the Tudors...


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I believe that four pounds of bees can fill 16 frames of foundation with wax fast even if not fed syrup to start. wouldn't take long to fill the comb with honey either. My best guess is they are way over crouded is why they keep swarming.

A laying worker lays eggs in worker cells. they are capped with bullet shaped caps. Also look for eggs on the cell walls and mutipal eggs in a cell, a random helter shelter pattern. Most laying worker colonies will not allow a queen to live since the colony has a false queen laying.

I wouldtake the frames with queen cells out and place them in a nuc. I would ten add several boxesoffoundation to the swarming colony and see if that slowes them down. If not you still have the swarms you captured and the nuc you made up.


 Al


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## AsaBSpade (Jun 23, 2009)

New development: Two queens?!

We just got back this evening from a weekend out of town. My wife and I inspected the hive anticipating putting a frame of open brood in because we believed that it had been too long without a laying queen to make any new queens. This time when we opened the hive the bees were much more calm and acted as should be expected when smoked rather than running around and becoming agitated as they did three days ago.

I took pictures as my wife lifted first one then another frame from the middle of the lower box. We were looking for eggs or fresh brood but suddenly my wife spotted the queen marching around. She was quite distinctive with a bald thorax and abdomen much longer than her wings, also her abdomen was almost all yellow, not darkly striped like the workers. She was as large as the drones but with much smaller eyes and longer profile.

We rejoiced, took some additional pictures of her and then carefully replaced the frame into the hive.

Latter I was looking at and editing some of the pictures and I spotted a queen on the first frame that my wife had pulled! It is possible that she crawled of the first frame and onto the second as my wife swapped them but I think that there is a good chance that we had two queens. It is probable that they will seek and destroy one another tonight.

My only worry is that neither will stay and we will have another swarm tomorrow...


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I have heard of some hives having both the old queen(who was failing) and the replacement queen that the bees raised. Only, they were both present in the hive!.

I was told that these 2-queen hives were checked again in the spring, and at each time the old queen was gone. 

All I can figure out is that, sometimes bees do as they wish, and not as they are supposed to!


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