# 2 qestion regarding wolves and LGD's



## JasoninMN

These stems from the previous post. 

In their native places the Boz, Kangal and SM puppies are exposed to wolves at a young age through pelts and carcasses to help them become accustomed to the wolves scent and over come a dogs instinctual fear of wolves. Most dogs are naturally fearful of wolf scent and wolves, unless accustomed to them regularly at a young age. It seems like this is a important part of rearing a LGD in Turkey that will be guarding against wolves, but as far as I know this has not been considered by American breeders. Now of course in America there may be legal hurdles to over come as far as owning parts of a protected species and keeping a captive wolf to test dogs on certainly won't be acceptable. I have a feeling many dogs who have not been exposed to wolves will turn tail and run on first encounter based on my observations of dogs encountering wolves in the wild and fresh wolf scent. Has any of this work been considered in the U.S before placing dogs to guard against wolves? Perhaps investing in some wolf pelts, a full body taxidermy mount or even arranging to visit live wolves behind a fence to test your dogs courage may not be a bad idea before sending them to war. 

Second, has a nonprofit group ever been considered to help ranchers and farmers in the west acquire the amount of trained dogs they would need? To purchase the amount of trained dogs needed would be a financial burden to most. With a nonprofit money could be raised to help place more appropriate breeds and the right number of dogs with the livestock. The cheetah fund is pretty popular for this type of work in Africa and there are a few groups in Europe too. I think you would get the backing of wolf haters and wolf lovers for a nonlethal but effective wolf control program. Just something to consider for those interested in LGD's.


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## Fowler

I do believe this has already been considered.

http://www.defenders.org/programs_a.../in_the_field/livestock_guard_dog_project.php


March 26, 2009&#8212;Dogs are used to protect sheep and other livestock from the cheetahs in Africa&8212;thereby saving the big cats from potential shootings by aggrieved farmers.



http://www.wildlifewarriors.com.au/african_conservation/cheetah_conservation.html
In 2007, Australia Zoo Wildlife Warriors commenced a new partnership with Cheetah Outreach to help expand their innovative Anatolian Shepherd Dog Program which is working to reduce the human/cheetah conflict in South Africa

Dogs Save Cheetahs and
Mastiffs Enlisted to Save Cows
http://video.nationalgeographic.com...s-and-foxes/dog-cow-video-missions-wcvin.html

http://www.great-pyrenees-club-of-southern-ontario.com/livestock-guardian-dogs.html




We all know that LGD's are more of a deterant along with having fought off preditors some won some lost. Everyone should know, more LGD's are needed depending on how many acres vs livestock vs type of preditors.

So what is your point?


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## JasoninMN

yup you missed the whole point. ....LOL

Here is a hint. Read the title and read the sentences with a question mark after them. Those would be the questions and you might find the point of the questions by reading the sentences surrounding them. Finally, check out the thread on spiked collars, it may help you find the point of these questions being asked. Don't hesitate to ask a friend if you need help. 

Thanks pointing out all the cheetah links though! I certainly don't have yahoo or google to look at cheetahs.


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## mekasmom

JasoninMN said:


> These stems from the previous post.
> 
> In their native places the Boz, Kangal and SM puppies are exposed to wolves at a young age through pelts and carcasses to help them become accustomed to the wolves scent and over come a dogs instinctual fear of wolves.


I just wanted to say that this is a very interesting point. I assume a pack of wolves would not be frightened away by a couple of big LGD's patrolling just from their presence. Coyotes will stay away from properties with LGD patrolling for the most part.


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## Fowler

JasoninMN said:


> yup you missed the whole point. ....LOL



Yeah that will happen, when your post dosent have one....LMAO!!!

We all know that LGD's are more of a deterant. So what is your point? Raise wolves as LGD's to fight wolves?


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## JasoninMN

Fowler said:


> Yeah that will happen, when your post dosent have one....LMAO!!!
> 
> We all know that LGD's are more of a deterant. So what is your point? Raise wolves as LGD's to fight wolves?


Please repeat the steps in previous post with emphasis on ASK A FRIEND FOR HELP.


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## Wolf Flower

I'll help!

Question #1



JasoninMN said:


> Has any of this work been considered in the U.S before placing dogs to guard against wolves? Perhaps investing in some wolf pelts, a full body taxidermy mount or even arranging to visit live wolves behind a fence to test your dogs courage may not be a bad idea before sending them to war.


Question #2



> Second, has a nonprofit group ever been considered to help ranchers and farmers in the west acquire the amount of trained dogs they would need?


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## Goatress

Jason, there will be a test on this on Friday and you get a gold star!!! LOL...

It is ironic you mention this. You can read a page on my website where I state that this (using wolf and coyote pelts) is what I will be doing with my upcoming litters, ie., dragging wolf and coyote pelts around and getting them introduced to the smells..... If the page is not saying that its because I have to wait to publish it later today, but I put it up about a week ago. Just changed internet providers and having to wait for IP to change or something to publish changes on my site..anyhow...its up there. To my knowledge no one else does this here...I suppose now everyone will jump in and do it (imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, ha). But its done in EU and Turkey, yes, you are right.

Bagging the coyotes is no issue for me but I had to go through some effort to nail down a wolf pelt off the grid (don't ask, don't tell).... I don't mean tanned pelts either I mean guts, blood, etc. still on them which is the only way it'll work.....

As for agencies working with people to place dogs, they are already doing this, and have been for some time, I know I am involved with a few for puppy placements, including a large cattlemen's group. 

Right now the USDA is locked up with one 'famous' (and infamous) Kangal/Akbash breeder who basically got someone's ear in the program, a newbie at her job, and convinced them no one else's dogs were 'good enough' but hers.....however, fear not....I got wind of that, raised a stink....with her boss....and others in USDA...the big cheese, realizing this smacks of monopoly and nepotism...quickly informed me the gal who did this was 'new' at her position and that other people's dogs would definitely be considered in the future, so take heart, all..... This lady is not the potent goddess she imagines herself to always be....

Will the dead coyotes being drug and used as a tease around pups help? Apparently it does. A customer of mine in Canada with a Pyrenees pup of mine, said they tried it (a whole carcass). Once Jimmy got over the initial surprise, he took it on and was tearing it to shreds.....6 month old pup, mind you. It teaches them confidence and knowledge and smells of the enemy. They are in heavy wolf and coyote country. And this is a Pyr, too, guys...for those who are always talking them down. A good Pyr is a good Pyr, period...mine are un-papered, out of old line of unregistered working stock....the mamma has dash of Tatra in her....fierce fighter. On that note, I see someone else here started thread on Pyrs, in their defense; they do take a lot of bashing these days it seems. But just because they don't always work in some situations don't mean they don't kick tail in others, I love mine, love the breed...and am admitted Pyr Puppy Addict...lol Like anything else. Good and bad in every breed!


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## Fowler

Thanks for the help Wolf Flower , but I did answered all of JasoninMN questions with the links provided he just doesn&#8217;t like the answer.

*Has any of this work been considered in the U.S before placing dogs to guard against wolves?*
Wolves appear to be far more unwilling to confront multiple guard dogs, which is comparable to confronting another wolf pack instead of a single animal. The results have been remarkable.
Fortunately, the guardian dogs *effectively deterred *the wolves from the larger band, preventing depredations of the main sheep band.
http://www.pinedaleonline.com/wolf/pdf/protectiondogs.pdf

_From all my readings LGD's will protect no matter what the preditor is.
You are correct that some normal house dog will turn tail and run even from a coyote. So why should an LGD need "pelts and carcasses to help them" they dont need it to protect from anything else. _

*Second, has a nonprofit group ever been considered to help ranchers and farmers in the west acquire the amount of trained dogs they would need?*

http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/39043/1/IND44318921.pdf

During March 2005, we purchased 12 Great Pyrenees
pups (6 female and 6 male, ages 7-9 weeks) of the same
pedigree from a breeder in Illinois.
We monitored wolf, coyote, and deer movement into
pasture systems using sand tracking swaths (1.5 x 4 m)
placed every 200 in the pasture perimeter. We
checked these swaths every day for a total of 15 days
during July through August and recorded the number of
each species that crossed under fences and entered
pastures.
To date, the dogs conduct regular . patrolling of pastures.
Currently, we have only anecdotal observations from
participating farmers, including that wolves frequent the
boundaries of farms and howl while *LGDs alert bark until
the wolves leave*

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/wildlife_damage/nwrc/publications/06pubs/shivik067.pdf

Theory: Guard dogs detect wolves near livestock and 
bark, approach, or fight with them, alerting the herders. 
They can reduce successful attacks by wolves (Bangs et 
al. 2005b). Advantages: Most sheep and some cattle 
producers already employ guard dogs. Cost-sharing 
reduced their costs to increase the number of dogs 
required to be effective in wolf range.

There are only "potential" wolf fighting breeds, such as.

Shar Planinetz
Central Asian Ovcharkas
The Transmontano Mastiff
The Karakachan Dog
Turkish Kangal

_The bottom line is...........they are a deterrent and against a pack of wolves they will lose.

Again, what is your point? "keeping a captive wolf to test dogs on". Most LGD's will die trying to protect. And most will, after all wolves are right up there on top of the food chain in America. And LGD's are dogs none the less, not wolves. 

So what kind of LGD's do you have?
What kind of livestock do you raise?
What dog do you consider wolf worthy?_


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## wendle

This is exactly why if you are purchasing a lgd pup for your commercial sheep operation you should buy from a breeder who is successfully utilizing the parents in a similar situation to your own. Nothing like field testing to see what the dog's made of.


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## JasoninMN

Fowler, you posted about dogs against bears and cheetahs in your first links which I did not ask for. Now you switched them to wolf links. I have seen those links there is some good info, some is outdated and some is ignorance based on assumptions from dogs tested in non-wolf areas. You can't stay on topic or find the point so your threads really mean nothing to me. 

Goatress, I am glad you are taking the route you are and actually testing and building their confidence plus considering using more effective breeds. I am still a skeptic on the success but if your going to place dogs in heavy wolf predation areas the dogs need to be prepared for what they are going to be up against. Since turks seems to be on the top of their game with this, it would only make sense to model some of their training techniques. So many people believe that simply because its a LGD it won't turn and run when it gets first scent of a wolf which is b.s. The majority of dogs that are not familiar with the scent will be scared, all of them will bark, but the ones that actually stand their ground are going to make the difference. I know if I was looking for dogs to work as protection against wolves i would go to a breeder that actually tests them, builds confidence and uses proven methods of training.


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## wendle

Fowler said:


> You are correct that some normal house dog will turn tail and run even from a coyote. So why should an LGD need "pelts and carcasses to help them" they dont need it to protect from anything else. [/I]
> 
> 
> [/I]


I've seen house dogs, and hunting dogs turn tail and run from a sheep. I don't think any amount of carcasses will help some of them.


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## Fowler

JasoninMN said:


> Fowler, you posted about dogs against bears and cheetahs in your first links which I did not ask for. Now you switched them to wolf links. I have seen those links there is some good info, some is outdated and some is ignorance based on assumptions from dogs tested in non-wolf areas. You can't stay on topic or find the point so your threads really mean nothing to me.
> 
> Goatress, I am glad you are taking the route you are and actually testing and building their confidence plus considering using more effective breeds. I am still a skeptic on the success but if your going to place dogs in heavy wolf predation areas the dogs need to be prepared for what they are going to be up against. Since turks seems to be on the top of their game with this, it would only make sense to model some of their training techniques. So many people believe that simply because its a LGD it won't turn and run when it gets first scent of a wolf which is b.s. The majority of dogs that are not familiar with the scent will be scared, all of them will bark, but the ones that actually stand their ground are going to make the difference. I know if I was looking for dogs to work as protection against wolves i would go to a breeder that actually tests them, builds confidence and uses proven methods of training.



And none of my links have been changed, the original links I posted gave authors to other info. I posted the "other" info for your Convenience. "I am not your Google momma".

I am not going to recite again what the docs state. If you choose to ignore them then so be it. Your looking for info that does not exist. 
Anyone can train a dog to be mean and go after another, doesnt mean it will survive an attack from a wolf. Very few do.

So what are you trying to point out? That LGD's can be killed too?
So be it, they can. Do you know of some super dog, that can take on a wolf with much sucess? Then supply the name.

The bottom line from all your rant and mine is still ...LGD's are deterrents plain and simple..

There is no such one dog to fight off wolves. Get it, got it, good.

Now answer my questions


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## Pops2

wendle said:


> I've seen house dogs, and hunting dogs turn tail and run from a sheep. I don't think any amount of carcasses will help some of them.


MY hunting dogs better darn well turn and run from a sheep or they won't be wasting air long. you obviously don't know much about hunting dogs or you'd know the vast majority are taught to avoid livestock. w/ harsh enough methods MANY will in fact run the other way if confronted by animals they have been shocked for even looking at.
also the problem for most hounds is that they DON"T pee themselves & run the other way when they cross a wolf track. the same 45# plott that will grab a 300# bear by the ***** generally will cross a wolf track w/o blinking.
fact is most dogs are not afraid of other canines. likewise the same 25# jagd that will climb a tree and get within a foot of a 200# tom mt lion, well he ain't heading back to the truck over a little old wolf track. it's in their DNA to assess the situation & if they have superior numbers to try to take the other side out. this is true even within the species. while it doesn't happen all the time, it is in fact too common for a unintroduced hunting packs to break into a fight in the woods. know of several people that have lost cat, bear, boar, deer & coyote hounds this way. heck i even know of a guy who lost a good beagle when he tried to run his dogs w/ someone elses rabbit pack.
now most dogs when they actually lay eyes on a big old canadian grey will cut and run because size does matter. unless they have a pack backing them up, then attitudes can & do change.

ETA
SOME hunting dogs ARE totally gutless, but MOST of those wind up being someone elses pet if they're lucky or being put down if they're not. a rare few w/ exceptional noses & the desire to use them are permitted to work in a pack full of hard fighters.


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## Pops2

Fowler said:


> _From all my readings LGD's will protect no matter what the preditor is.
> You are correct that some normal house dog will turn tail and run even from a coyote. So why should an LGD need "pelts and carcasses to help them" they dont need it to protect from anything else. _


if this were even remotely true they wouldn't be able to lure dogs into an ambush & kill them.


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## Ross

I'm not sure I buy into the need to acclimatize a LGD to not be afraid of wolves. Perhaps it adds confidence but is that really what you want? Do you want your dog so comfortable it leaves their deterent role quickly and try to become active at killing wolves? While your dog is taking on one or two the rest of the pack is likely after your stock.


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## KSALguy

if your in a heavy preditor area with PACKS of wolfs, you need PACKS of dogs to do the job, one dog wont do much more than just feed the wolf pack, but in a pack of their own they can do the job, acclimating them to what they may encounter in the line of duty is not a bad idea, yes it may possibly be over kill but in the instance where it is nessisary why complain? everyone over here in the states wants to re invent the wheel on everything, thinking that sence we are here in America we dont need to bother with how things were in the place of origin for most every livestock we now have, thats just stupid, if the 1000's of years it took to develope these breeds show us anything in how to work with them i think i would take note and not make such a fuss,


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## JasoninMN

KSALguy said:


> everyone over here in the states wants to re invent the wheel on everything, thinking that sence we are here in America we dont need to bother with how things were in the place of origin for most every livestock we now have, thats just stupid, if the 1000's of years it took to develope these breeds show us anything in how to work with them i think i would take note and not make such a fuss,



Nah that would make sense. Of course looking at the people who actually have done this work for 100's of years would be the silliest thing a person could do. They introduce their puppies to wolves right away so the dogs aren't fearful as adults but surely they are they ones doing things wrong as the LGD's here get slaughtered left and right.


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## HappyFarmer

Wow, some of these comments are rude and definately an insult to member's intelligence. Whatever, I guess there are many kinds on a public forum.

I feel that any fear from a wolf exhibited by an lgd is more of a personal trait of the dog rather than a primal fear of the wolf (read large predator here). Large cats, bears, etc. would have to come into play in the predator category. Do you REALLY think that same LGD would abandon her pups because a wolf came strolling along? Where would the fear factor fit in there?

I feel that if you buy from local breeders, those dogs would be exposed to local predators, and be somewhat acclimated to the smells & antics of those predators & taught by the parent lgd's. Here, I won't find an lgd that is familiar with large cats, but then it doesn't matter because we supposedly don't have any large cats. Those same breeders wouldn't keep those dogs if they backed down from the local predators (or they would increase the lgd numbers). If they didn't they'd be out of business very soon as the profit margin is slim.

I also feel that the lgd & livestock losses to wolves has a lot to do with under protection with an inadequate number of lgd's vs. the predator load. Lets face it, if I only have 20 sheep, it is not econonical for me to have more than 2 lgd's (actually 1 but this is theoretical) - and the predators don't understand economics so voila' losses occur possibly including the lgd's and why these stories are common.

And lastly I feel that there is no comparison between those in the US and those in other countries, say such as Africa. This statement is meant as a general statement, not an all inclusive one.
Many, but not all, have restrictions they must comply with in the US, size of property and therefore number of livestock is limited (especially members on this forum!), number of guardians and/or lawsuit liabilities, and lastly the ROA may not even be worth it if you are too small. 

soo much more to consider here in the US where we are over burdened, overtaxed, and over regulated. Had to shoot this off quickly, hope it makes sense.

And that's all I'm going to say on the subject, back to your regularly scheduled program!

HF


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## BarbadosSheep

I think part of the problem is we don't shepherd like we used to. It used to be the shepherd watched over his flocks and the dog was there to help. Now the dogs are expected to do it all while we sleep snugly in our beds. We are simply asking too much of our dogs. There is no way you can prepare a group of LGDs to take on a pack of wolves and survive it. The dogs will be outnumbered and the wolves will come out the victors. I think a large commercial sheep operation needs to have full time heavily armed shepherds, especially at night. I am very thankful that I do not have to contend with wolves because my sheep are not my full-time job. I love my dogs too much to see them torn to shreds by wolves.


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## Ross

I certainly think too many are leaving the entire job of protecting their animals to LGDs with little or no back up. They want a one stop solution and thats what breeders say they are selling. People want a clean solution, no guns, no killing, certainly not on their part, leave it to the dogs if they absolutley must. The very least you can do is to bring the stock into a safe yard at night.


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## Goatress

Ross said:


> I certainly think too many are leaving the entire job of protecting their animals to LGDs with little or no back up. They want a one stop solution and thats what breeders say they are selling. People want a clean solution, no guns, no killing, certainly not on their part, leave it to the dogs if they absolutley must. The very least you can do is to bring the stock into a safe yard at night.


True.... 

"Clean" solution....well, in a perfect world, sure. But out here we have a saying: SSS - shoot, shovel and shut up...... :cowboy: Yup!


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## chamoisee

This:


Ross said:


> I certainly think too many are leaving the entire job of protecting their animals to LGDs with little or no back up. They want a one stop solution and thats what breeders say they are selling. People want a clean solution, no guns, no killing, certainly not on their part, leave it to the dogs if they absolutley must. The very least you can do is to bring the stock into a safe yard at night.


And then they whine and complain and agitate when they lose stock, even if it's on open range and they've hardly seen their animals for a month or two. What did they expect?! 

You simply cannot turn a lot of cattle or anything else loose into forests and half wild areas which are known to have predator animals and expect everything to be hunky dory, let alone blame the predators for it. 

Here's a solution: *take better care of your livestock.*


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## fishhead

I've watched my dogs when the come upon a wolf scent post. They stop and smell it and then lift their head. They stand there for a few seconds almost as if they are thinking about it. Then they go back to hunting.

We got pinched between 2 howling wolf packs this fall at sunset. One pack was no more than 1/4 mile behind us and the other was probably less than 1/2 mile in front of us. Fortunately I could put my dog on heel for the 2 mile walk out of the woods in the dark.


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## MonsterMalak

A friend from Montana sent me a picture of more than a dozen wolves traveling through the snow in a single file. 

Sent a chill through me thinking of the poor LGD that would encounter this pack.


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## westbrook

I had a pup that wasn't exposed to raccoons but at 3 months of age treed it! (it was too big to bark it so I had to shoot it.)

What I have found is if it is out of what is normal to them.. they are gonna make it go away!

clearly a pack of wolves will need a pack of LGD! one or two dogs are NO match for a pack!! If you livestock is behind a fence as is your dog, if offers a barrier for both wolf or Coyote and dogs.

My dogs have never been exposed to pelts of predators but they know that it ain't a chicken/turkey, rabbit (usually in cages unless there is an escape), goat, or sheep! If not one of these, it is a predator! Since I have field fencing with barbed wire on top... if offers a line drawn in the sand so to speak! When the dogs hear something on the northeast fence line... they are there barking to deter the predator.

Fifteen wolves have been introduced into my area in a compound of some sort up the canyon. The dogs have gone nuts on the west fence line howling and barking.

No non-profit organization.... start one!


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## Pops2

MonsterMalak said:


> A friend from Montana sent me a picture of more than a dozen wolves traveling through the snow in a single file.
> 
> Sent a chill through me thinking of the poor LGD that would encounter this pack.


saw a pic on a hunting forum the other day, 26 adult wolves single file in the snow.


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## copperpennykids

The day I have to use a coyote pelt, a wolf pelt or a mountain lion pelt so that my Great Pyrenees "know" the enemy or need "confidence" to take them head-on, that will be the day I stop breeding these marvelous dogs. And I had better get an enormous barn.

Just sayin'.


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## Ed Norman

Pops2 said:


> saw a pic on a hunting forum the other day, 26 adult wolves single file in the snow.


Where did they say it was from? I talked to a lady who said a coworker took it and it is on his camera and happened here in ID, but I have also seen it being in many other states.


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## westbrook

[email protected]!


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## fishhead

I've also noticed that my springers know gamebirds the first time they encounter them. They ignore songbirds but instinctly go after any gamebird from bobwhite to pheasant and grouse. The only gamebird they seem to ignore is turkey.


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## Ross

My father bred Springers, I'm a little surprised they won't flush a turkey. You'd have thought they'd mange it by default if nothing else quartering back and to just inside shotgun range! Still bird dogs demonstrate bred for instinct better than most.


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## JasoninMN

It humors me how many think that just because a dog is barking its doing something productive. My non LGD will sit in the yard and bark too if predators are around. I guess that makes him a LGD also only problem is barking doesn't deter wolves. The difference between him and your great Pyrenees is he has actually fought timber wolves 2 times now and lived to talk about it. Yes a little 70 pound mutt probably has more guts then your 100 pound fluffy white dog. Comparing dogs chasing game birds and other prey animals to handling dangerous predators is just ridiculous, any dog will chase prey species unless its a total piece of dung. A lot of dogs will chase predators until the predator stops and challenges them, then they retreat. Everyone one thinks their dogs are the best dogs on earth which is great thats why we keep them. The fact is 90% of your great Pyrenees would probably turn tail and run if a real predator shows up leaving your stock to get ate. People put way to much confidence in their untested dogs and rely on breed alone. You can try to poke fun of what i am am saying about building confidence in these dogs to handle large predators but that just shows me how ignorant you are not me. You don't just throw a inexperienced hunting dog on a large boar or on a cougar and expect is to do the job just because it was born a hound, bulldog, cur or whatever other breed that is being used to pursue large game. Anyone who actually pursues large dangerous game with dogs knows this. There isn't as much room for error as there is chasing pheasants. If you can't find the correlation now to building confidence in LGD's that is your problem not mine. Its not about teaching your dogs who the predator is, what a ridiculous assumption. Instead of basing your knowledge on what a book says in 2 paragraphs or how or dogs handles vermin such as raccoons, fox and maybe even a whooping 40lb yote in a pasture, try talking to the people who are having success. Surely the people who live in a area with a higher concentration of wolves then the U.S will ever have, know nothing about training their dogs to protect against wolves. The shepherds in Turkey raise dogs that are a lot more aggressive in temperament then American bred dogs .They still expose them to wolves at a young age to build their confidence in the field because maybe they actually know that they are doing. Nah the typical lazy American who doesn't train their dogs, shepherd at all and has dogs who have never touched a wolf are better suited to give advise on training for protection against wolves. The main difference though is the shepherds dogs in Turkey actually encounter wolves frequently and I bet their success has something to do with the puppies up bringing. Nah it couldn't be. 

Just sayin!


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## pancho

JasoninMN said:


> It humors me how many think that just because a dog is barking its doing something productive. My non LGD will sit in the yard and bark too if predators are around. I guess that makes him a LGD also only problem is barking doesn't deter wolves. The difference between him and your great Pyrenees is he has actually fought timber wolves 2 times now and lived to talk about it.
> 
> Just sayin!


Sorry if I have you mixed up with another poster but aren't you the one that said that was impossible and that hadn't ever happened in the history of the U.S.
If I remember right you stated ther is no dog that could defeat a wolf but here you state that your mutt has not only done that but against two wolves.
And not only one time but two times.

I will ask you for the same proof as you did others. Prove it. Where is the proof?

Again, if you are a different poster I apologize. If you are the same poster please look back over your posts and please do the same thing you demanded of others.

Thought I would add this sentence from one of your posts. "I don't care what breed is being ran they will all get ate or severely injured when they encounter wolves"


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## PennyJ

JasoninMN said:


> It humors me how many think that just because a dog is barking its doing something productive. My non LGD will sit in the yard and bark too if predators are around. I guess that makes him a LGD also only problem is barking doesn't deter wolves. The difference between him and your great Pyrenees is he has actually fought timber wolves 2 times now and lived to talk about it. Yes a little 70 pound mutt probably has more guts then your 100 pound fluffy white dog. Comparing dogs chasing game birds and other prey animals to handling dangerous predators is just ridiculous, any dog will chase prey species unless its a total piece of dung. A lot of dogs will chase predators until the predator stops and challenges them, then they retreat. Everyone one thinks their dogs are the best dogs on earth which is great thats why we keep them. The fact is 90% of your great Pyrenees would probably turn tail and run if a real predator shows up leaving your stock to get ate. People put way to much confidence in their untested dogs and rely on breed alone. You can try to poke fun of what i am am saying about building confidence in these dogs to handle large predators but that just shows me how ignorant you are not me. You don't just throw a inexperienced hunting dog on a large boar or on a cougar and expect is to do the job just because it was born a hound, bulldog, cur or whatever other breed that is being used to pursue large game. Anyone who actually pursues large dangerous game with dogs knows this. There isn't as much room for error as there is chasing pheasants. If you can't find the correlation now to building confidence in LGD's that is your problem not mine. Its not about teaching your dogs who the predator is, what a ridiculous assumption. Instead of basing your knowledge on what a book says in 2 paragraphs or how or dogs handles vermin such as raccoons, fox and maybe even a whooping 40lb yote in a pasture, try talking to the people who are having success. Surely the people who live in a area with a higher concentration of wolves then the U.S will ever have, know nothing about training their dogs to protect against wolves. The shepherds in Turkey raise dogs that are a lot more aggressive in temperament then American bred dogs .They still expose them to wolves at a young age to build their confidence in the field because maybe they actually know that they are doing. Nah the typical lazy American who doesn't train their dogs, shepherd at all and has dogs who have never touched a wolf are better suited to give advise on training for protection against wolves. The main difference though is the shepherds dogs in Turkey actually encounter wolves frequently and I bet their success has something to do with the puppies up bringing. Nah it couldn't be.
> 
> Just sayin!


While it's my meek opinion that you have _some_ valid points, it's also my meek opinion that your posts are argumentative. Is this a learned behavior or instinct for you? Why do you choose to argue? Aren't we here to learn from and uplift each other? 

To clarify a point: are you taught to swallow or is it just a natural function? I believe we all know the answer to that. LGDs.....to guard is the nature of the beast and they have the "born with" knowledge to guard and protect. Yes, some need more guidance than others, but humans are this way too. And for some breeds, human or animal: "You can't fix stupid". :happy2:
Just sayin'.......


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## wendle

JasoninMN said:


> My non LGD will sit in the yard and bark too if predators are around. I guess that makes him a LGD also only problem is barking doesn't deter wolves. The difference between him and your great Pyrenees is he has actually fought timber wolves 2 times now and lived to talk about it.


Just curious JasoninMN how many sheep was your mixed breed dog guarding and how successful is he at it? Was he attacked when he was protecting the livestock or did he go after them? Do you have a lgd? Sheep? Goats? How many? 
The bark is only good if the predators consider the dog on duty somewhat of a threat. If one of my border collies was out running loose barking at predators I would expect him to get attacked eventually and potentially killed. Even though your dog lived through the attack, the wolves could come back for another shot at him. Next time he may not be so lucky. 



http://timberwolfinformation.org/kidsonly/wolfweb/wolf.htm


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## BarbadosSheep

I suspect a good many would-be predators hear that deep booming voice of these LGD breeds and think twice about attacking.


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## Fowler

Looks Like the Illyrian Shepherd (&#352;arplaninac) is the dog that will kill wolves
This film was made in the 1960's

[youtube]CKAabbHiZqo[/youtube]


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## Fowler

And here's JasoninMN mutt fighting off a wolf.. psssst...I think their playing?...LOL!!

[youtube]WttgWm65pSg[/youtube]


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## pancho

First clip is actual fight. Second clip is playing. Easy to see the difference. 
I have a friend who has videos of dogs fighting many different kinds of animals. From raccoons, wolverines, coyotes, wolves, bob cat, bear, mountain lion, to monkeys. Some he made himself and some were made by others. They are real fighting dogs and real fights. Much too graphic and bloody to be putting on here.
The most dangerous to the dog is usually the monkey. Bear because of their size are tough but lack gameness and will rum if given the chance. Cats are fairly easy because their backbone is fragile and exposed. Raccoon, wolvernies and coyotes rarely last long enough to make the clip interesting. Wolves, like the bear, will run when things get tough and if they get the chance to run.


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## Goatress

What is the old saying, "talk is cheap"?

I believe I've made my stance very clear on this board, that I am currently in a testing mode on the specific breeds that I raise, and until proof comes back, I can't say for sure if they will do better vs. wolves, but based on what they do in Europe and in Turkey, I feel fairly confident when I say a Kangal, or a Boz (adult in both cases, and experienced) could one on one, give a wolf a run for its money. 

Not every wolf out there is a 200 pd killer.... Not every wolf is unstoppable and not every dog is a wolf lunch. There are exceptions all the way around. I guess what sets me apart from most is that I have put my money where my mouth is; I have goals in mind and a game plan, I chose the breeds I did for reasons, and I'm talking to cattlemen and ranchers every day, getting input on what wolves actually DO to their dogs, how they attack, methods, etc. etc. In other words, from the source, not third hand gossip or wild tales of exaggerated nature. And I am using their input to figure out what breeds/crosses will work best. And I'm still an advocate of using carlancas, and more.....

I spoke to a rancher in MT who has run everything from Pit Bulls to Great Pyrs and everything in between. He actually has had some kills on wolves with a pack of dogs including catch dogs. He also loses a ton of dogs. But he also goes out at night with night vision, guns, horse drawn wagon, he camps out there with his sheep, he hunts the wolves, he backs his dogs up. Yes, he still loses some but guess what? He's dusted more than a fair share of lobos too and not just him and a gun but his dogs. 

I think the bottom line is the resurgence of wolves, the bigger wolves, are going to be making some stockmen re-think their approach to livestock protection, its going to entail more hands on sheperding, out of the box thinking....and trying different dogs, more dogs, raising them differently, etc. The bar has been raised. The guys who last this out will be the ones willing to take chances on new types of dogs, new methods of deterrents. 

Right now I know this I could contract myself out for just about any price if I had a horse and a gooseneck full of fully mature Boz, Kangals and mastines, and go to some of these guys' ranches (I've already been hit up to do this by ranchers) and stake out a section where their cattle or sheep are and just run the dogs for a week or so, and see what happens. I wish I could but there is no way I can leave my place. Or I would do it!


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## JasoninMN

Pancho I never said he defeated the wolves I said he survived. He survived because I saved him both times by running into the mess and chasing the wolves off. I have proof of him getting his butt whipped by 4 wolves if I felt I needed to prove it. Thanks for quoting me but I don't think your picking up my sarcasm very well. 

Wendle, I sold my livestock, will be more in spring and have no LGD's. I would rather invest in good fencing and livestock management then care for a pack of dogs with questionable success. I have seen a enough LGDs and dogs in general killed by wolves in person, not online sources, to know they are not worth the investment for me to run them at the numbers need to be successful here. 

Good luck with your endeavors goatress and I hope you keep the board updated on how things play out. I am curious to see how kangals and boz work out. 

I am done with this thread.


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## Pops2

JasoninMN said:


> People put way to much confidence in their untested dogs and rely on breed alone.


 i agree w/this. a lot of people hype what their dogs can do. people buy into the hype. at the same time their is generally some grain of truth behind the hype. for example Boz, Kangal, alabi & kooches all regularly kill wolves one on one where they come from. the part that goes unmentioned is the kind of wolves they face iranian/indian & himalayan wolves. the indian/iranian wolf is a small wolf similar to our red wolves 30-50# normally and 75# max. the himalayan is a short stocky medium sized wolf normally 50-75# & a max of 90#. neither species forms the mega packs (20+) that the large northern wolves (alaskan, canadian, russian etc) do. but you can't make sweeping statements because someone will always provide an example contrary to the statement. for example, most people would consider ANY 28# dog way outclassed by a 35# coyote. yet i have a friend in IA w/ a 27# pat & a 28# patXpit, both have gone into culverts & holes and pulled out 35# coyotes for the stags & hounds to kill. i also know of an AL hunter whose two 25ish # jagdterriers have stretched 35# coyotes. you can't look at all breeds w/ one eye.



JasoninMN said:


> You don't just throw a inexperienced hunting dog on a large boar or on a cougar and expect is to do the job just because it was born a hound, bulldog, cur or whatever other breed that is being used to pursue large game. Anyone who actually pursues large dangerous game with dogs knows this.


 ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. although it is more correct to focus on lines than breed.
old Mont Plott had a fella show up wanting to buy some bear dogs. all of his grown dogs had been wrecked by a bad bear. so Mont had Von take the 3 oldest pups (9-12 months) out for their first bear hunt. not only did they find a bear, they caught it on the ground & held it there until their new owner shot it w/ a pistol.
likewise if i get a Doug Mason catahoula or a Randy Wright black mouth cur, i can w/no training put them on a herd of cattle or in some hot hog sign & have a reasonable expectation that they will find & stop hogs or hold the herd tight & take it where i want. that comes from good breeding & hard culling. same kind of thing could be said of Mike Leonard cat hounds, Ben Hardaway coyote hounds, or Dave Hise staghounds.
heck bulldogs are the most consistant. you can pick up 3 or 4 generic bulldogs ((boxerXlab, bullmastiffX, pitX) at the pound of your choice. put them on their first hog that night & AT LEAST one will be a GOOD solid catchdog from pig 1. one or two others will be good helpers that may become solid w/ experience. 



JasoninMN said:


> Surely the people who live in a area with a higher concentration of wolves then the U.S will ever have, know nothing about training their dogs to protect against wolves. The shepherds in Turkey raise dogs that are a lot more aggressive in temperament then American bred dogs .They still expose them to wolves at a young age to build their confidence in the field because maybe they actually know that they are doing. Nah the typical lazy American who doesn't train their dogs, shepherd at all and has dogs who have never touched a wolf are better suited to give advise on training for protection against wolves. The main difference though is the shepherds dogs in Turkey actually encounter wolves frequently and I bet their success has something to do with the puppies up bringing. Nah it couldn't be.
> 
> Just sayin!


actually the highest wolf density in the world is the 400-600 red wolves in NC around the Alligator River & matamuskeet refuges.
other than that, i agree that the best chance of success is to emulate success. which, not coincidentally, is what goatress & monstermalak are trying to do.


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## wendle

There used to be a guy in Idaho who would sell started lgds. They were raised in a large commercial flock setting with other lgds. A friend of mine purchased 4 from him and they sure did a good job. They bonded well with the flock staying with them well without wandering. They were pyr/maremma or pyr/komondor crosses. 
The pup would learn from the older dogs what to expect during attacks on the flock. When I first got my lgd I borrowed one of these to help him get started right and also so I would know what to expect with raising and handling one of these dogs. Now my dog is 7 and I am looking at having him help get another ldg started soon.


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## pancho

JasoninMN said:


> Pancho I never said he defeated the wolves I said he survived. He survived because I saved him both times by running into the mess and chasing the wolves off. I have proof of him getting his butt whipped by 4 wolves if I felt I needed to prove it. Thanks for quoting me but I don't think your picking up my sarcasm very well.
> 
> Wendle, I sold my livestock, will be more in spring and have no LGD's. I would rather invest in good fencing and livestock management then care for a pack of dogs with questionable success. I have seen a enough LGDs and dogs in general killed by wolves in person, not online sources, to know they are not worth the investment for me to run them at the numbers need to be successful here.
> 
> Good luck with your endeavors goatress and I hope you keep the board updated on how things play out. I am curious to see how kangals and boz work out.
> 
> I am done with this thread.


Was that black dog in the clip actually the one you are talking about?
I thought that was a joke. If that is your dog and you call that a fight I can understand you much better.
Got a good laugh watching the black dog "fight" the other dog.


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## JasoninMN

Pancho I did not post the clip Fowler did so where did you get the idea of me saying that was my dog? You make a LOT of assumptions or reading is not a strong point of yours. Just because someone else posted a youtube clip and said it was mine doesn't mean it is. Here maybe you will understand this. NO THAT IS NOT MY DOG IN THE VIDEO. Common sense isn't so common now days is it?


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## pancho

JasoninMN said:


> Pancho I did not post the clip Fowler did so where did you get the idea of me saying that was my dog? You make a LOT of assumptions or reading is not a strong point of yours. Just because someone else posted a youtube clip and said it was mine doesn't mean it is. Here maybe you will understand this. NO THAT IS NOT MY DOG IN THE VIDEO. Common sense isn't so common now days is it?


Thanks for clearing that up. I was making an assumption using your past posts as an indication.

Now can you explain about your posts about no dog being able to whip a single wolf and your mutt whipping two wolves two different times.
Seems like you said two different things.


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## thaiblue12

Irish Wolfhound. Not LGD but they are wolf killers and were bred to do so. Sure now there are lots bred as pets but those dogs were started for the purpose of killing woves and they did. Not sure of any of it took place in the US or not. 

Near where you live Jason seems to be wolf territory, to keep my livestock safe I would not have them in a place heavy with large predators. Wolves for the most part try to avoid humans and not many people are attacked or killed by wolves. You venture out grouse hunting and taking photos and etc so you put yourself and your dogs in their area. I am sorry Ace has been attacked but you put him there. Just like people who live in the mountains get their animals eaten by mountain lions, I do not fault the wild animal. The human knew the risks when moving to a remote area where bears and such live. 

I live in coyote country, I have LGD and they do their job and know it. Fence does not keep coyotes out. Cattle panels do but I cannot afford to cattle panel 7 acres. I have field fence and they come on through anyway. I have lost poultry before I had LGD, now I do not. We had one large and bold coyote over at my neighbor's for the past few weeks. He did not give a darn about day or night, people around or not. My one buckling escaped from the bigger boys beating him and I bet he was yelling his head off running to the herd and he attracted the attention of the coyote who grabbed the back of his leg. My one LGD was on him in seconds and we have not seen that coyote since. So they are worth it to me. Against one or two wolves sure they would do pretty good, against a pack nope. But then again I am not keeping my goats in wolf, bear or mountain lion country. I have no desire to live there even aside from livestock. 
Oh and my boys do not bark all day and night, I would kill them if they did, they only bark when needed. They are Ana/Pyrs.


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## TriWinkle

pancho said:


> Was that black dog in the clip actually the one you are talking about?
> I thought that was a joke. If that is your dog and you call that a fight I can understand you much better.
> Got a good laugh watching the black dog "fight" the other dog.


Not trying to take sides here, but I don't believe he said his dog "whipped" them...



> The difference between him and your great Pyrenees is he has actually fought timber wolves 2 times now and lived to talk about it.





> Pancho I never said he defeated the wolves I said he survived. He survived because I saved him both times by running into the mess and chasing the wolves off.


I will add that Jason seems to lack a gentle touch with some of his arguments though...Just an observation.


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## Pops2

thaiblue12 said:


> Irish Wolfhound. Not LGD but they are wolf killers and were bred to do so. Sure now there are lots bred as pets but those dogs were started for the purpose of killing woves and they did. Not sure of any of it took place in the US or not.


 this is a lie perpetuated by the show fancy. the modern Irish wolfhound was created in the mid 1800s beginning w/ Major Richardson who crossed scottish deerhounds & german boardogs (roughly great danes but not exactly). in the early 1860s, Captain Augustus E Graham started w/ Richardson's crosses than discarded them all together. Graham then started breeding pure deerhounds of heavier type (similar to the modern show deerhound) some from ireland. the heavier dogs were registered as wolfhounds & the lighter ones as deerhounds eventually he added the Richardson mixed blood into the line to get the heavier type he wanted (but still not as heavy as now). after his death the show fancy added blood from the newly named great dane. the modern Irish wolfhound is essentially a wirehaired great dane. toward the end of the 19th century, because of the name, some of this show breed was tried in the field against brush wolves (coyotes) in the plains states. they were found lacking in speed & endurance. a few that were a little faster or better stayers AND really hard kill dogs were crossed w/ the greyhounds & greyhoundXdeerhounds that would become our modern coldblood greys & staghounds.
even the old Irish wolfhound was NOT a one up wolf killer nor did they run against the enormous northern wolves like the kind introduced into the western states & migrating into the great lakes areas from canada. the original IW was run in mostly in trios & occasionally pairs on medium sized wolves. 



thaiblue12 said:


> Near where you live Jason seems to be wolf territory, to keep my livestock safe I would not have them in a place heavy with large predators. Wolves for the most part try to avoid humans and not many people are attacked or killed by wolves. You venture out grouse hunting and taking photos and etc so you put yourself and your dogs in their area. I am sorry Ace has been attacked but you put him there. Just like people who live in the mountains get their animals eaten by mountain lions, I do not fault the wild animal. The human knew the risks when moving to a remote area where bears and such live.


 the issue isn't the wolves being there. the issues is going to prison for protecting your animals because the fed & a bunch of morons that don't live with them making laws that say just that. if the Jason had shot just one wolf the others (after eating the injured one) would have remembered that screwing w/ dogs meant a good chance of getting shot & eaten. so they would have avoided dogs & people even more and taught their pups the same.



thaiblue12 said:


> Against one or two wolves sure they would do pretty good, against a pack nope. But then again I am not keeping my goats in wolf, bear or mountain lion country.


 one dog (regardless of breed) isn't going to do anything against two large type wolves except die gloriously. you may live in bear & lion country depending on where in CO you are.


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## JasoninMN

> *
> Thaiblue*Near where you live Jason seems to be wolf territory, to keep my livestock safe I would not have them in a place heavy with large predators. Wolves for the most part try to avoid humans and not many people are attacked or killed by wolves. You venture out grouse hunting and taking photos and etc so you put yourself and your dogs in their area. I am sorry Ace has been attacked but you put him there. Just like people who live in the mountains get their animals eaten by mountain lions, I do not fault the wild animal. The human knew the risks when moving to a remote area where bears and such live.


I live in wolf central and I am okay with that. I am not going to quit keeping animals because of it though. I have to disagree about wolves avoiding people. They have no reason too we are just another part of their environment at this point. I have on numerous occasions been with in 20 feet of a wolf with out them giving much notice. Heck they are even seen frequently on some of the college campuses along the N. Shore and come into the city killing dogs. The iron ore mines have wolves all over ignoring the people and mining equipment. The mines are like mini wildlife refuges with humans thrown in and large equipment as obstacles. I watched a wolf jump up onto a trucks door on the Echo trail looking to get itself a little lap dog for lunch with a human inside. Really many could care less about you unless you go after them aggressively. We haven't been a predator to wolves in a long time so why should they be too concerned about us. I should add I have still never been scared for my well being by one either. I think my charming demeanor has scares them off. 

I realize taking a dog into the woods is a risk, heck letting them out in the yard is at times. A wolfs just doing what a wolf does. I don't have ill feelings towards them for attacking my dogs but I doubt many are going to share my same tolerance for wildlife and especially predators. That said, I do not see any reason why a wolf cannot be a game animal either. 



> the issue isn't the wolves being there. the issues is going to prison for protecting your animals because the fed & a bunch of morons that don't live with them making laws that say just that. if the Jason had shot just one wolf the others (after eating the injured one) would have remembered that screwing w/ dogs meant a good chance of getting shot & eaten. so they would have avoided dogs & people even more and taught their pups the same.


First time I called the Feds. They said they don't protect dogs and neither can I. I was basically interrogated in an attempt to get me to to admit I shot a wolf which I didn't and they didn't get very far with that. Tried to do it the legal way and you end up a criminal. I didn't bother reporting the next two incidents and not many people do bother to report it anymore. Apparently you are supposed to watch your dogs get killed which is B.S. First attack I had a shot gun, yelled at wolf and it ignored me. Fired a shot and the second wolf jumped out of brush and grabbed the back of my dog. Emptied my last three rounds hoping to scare them. The wolves weren't leaving so I ran in ready to use the butt of my gun to hit them. Courts, prison and LEO's are not worth shooting a wolf to me. I live next to a tree hugger's campground and my luck the wolf would run there and fall over dead with plenty of witnesses. 

Now my friend shot a wolf when a pack got his setter grouse hunting, he called the dnr and reported it. They never did anything because no jury would find him guilty. His dog was chewed up bad and ended up dieing a few weeks later. The shot wolf ran off with the rest of the pack, it was shot with bird shot, no idea if its a "educated" wolf or a dead one. I would consider shooting one now that I learned this if I couldn't get them to leave and the dog had some signs of a attack on it. Laws will be changing soon. 

The other two times I had no gun and just planned on kicked the crap out of them.


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## fishhead

I think it will be a good thing when people restore some of the fear of humans back into the wolf population. If we ever get a trapping season on them I'll apply for a permit unless the DNR uses it to gouge us with some ridiculous fee. I've still got a bunch of 4 1/2 Newhouse left but I'd probably switch to some of the new coilsprings.


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## Fowler

thaiblue12 said:


> I live in coyote country, I have LGD and they do their job and know it. Fence does not keep coyotes out. *Cattle panels do but I cannot afford to cattle panel 7 acres.* I have field fence and they come on through anyway. I have lost poultry before I had LGD, now I do not. We had one large and bold coyote over at my neighbor's for the past few weeks. Oh and my boys do not bark all day and night, I would kill them if they did, they only bark when needed. They are Ana/Pyrs.


Thaiblue, I have fenced in 10 acres with cattle panels and a barb wire top, and trust me when I say the bigger yotes will climb over them to attack what's on the other side. I had a 60 lb yote do this and kill a 1yr old lamb and carry him back over the fence. I would not have believed it, but when I came out to check on them there was this huge coyote staring at me. and I found yote hair in the barb wire where it climbed over.


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## MonsterMalak

I would have to say that after one wades through the sarcasm and egos, this is a very informative thread.

Unlike most forums or threads, there is input from persons knowledgable of hunting (Pops2), as well as use and function of breeds utilized around the world. 

Although many people could be offended by the hunting aspect use of dogs, it is as natural as any use of LGDs. Hunting with dogs is something man has relied on since domestication began. And it also is beneficial to have the information on the ACTUAL abilities of breeds of dogs, and size/ability comparrisons. 

Pops2 has a vast knowledge base with both history and function of dog breeds, and I thank him for his contribution. He has corrected me on several occasions,,,, that I had no choice but to accept.  

The HYPE out there on most if not all breeds is something that is natural for breeders and fanciers to do. Some of it has been repeated so long that it is well established. 

Ideally, persons could TEST their dogs in a controlled setting,,,, Otherwise to be able to video their dogs up against Wolves or Coyotes. But our society is much to HUMANE conscious to allow true testing situations.

To try to emulate other cultures that have succesfull practices and breeds is all that is left.... then the slow process of working in the High predator areas.

A friend living in Montana between the territories of two wolf packs runs Kangals and Boz and Boz Kangal crosses. He raises miniature cattle and goats. He sent me a picture of one of the packs of wolves walking single file through a snow covered valley. I couldnt count them (on my phone screen), but there is more than two dozen wolves.
He runs 5 dogs with a male and female pairs in each pasture. His losses are minimal, but he is also purchasing additional dogs to reinforce his defense. 
Testing placements like these are as close as we can get to proving their abilities. But it takes time. His website is www.RockyMountainKangal.com

Since I do not have wolves in my area, (just red wolf coyote hybrids), I plan to test my dogs on Boar Hunting. As their ability to chase, and take down a Wild Boar will give me a better idea of their physical abilities than just chasing off some coyotes.


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## Pops2

MonsterMalak

you & Goatress are the ONLY LGD breeders i've run into so far that are being honest w/ yourself (let alone everyone else) about the monumental task ahead. i have seen so much nonsense about how 1 or 2 (GP, ASD, kangal or what ever other breed is preferred by the individual) LGD can hold off a whole pack of wolves, a grizzly bear or kill a mt lion. or how the LGDs will take care of all problems to the end of time & even ship the lambs to market for you. i don't think there is a breed yet developed that is REALLY equiped to take on the BIG northern wolves one up. i think it's possible but will take time to develop. i think the breeds that are still facing wolves (however much smaller they may be) are the best choice for the base from which to develop. i think some outside the box thinking in crosses may be needed to build that breed. and i think putting dogs on the job is the absolute must, first step toward achieving that goal.
i don't want to be a buzzkill, i just want people to know what they are facing & what they are working with so they can be prepared for what they are getting into.


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## pancho

Pops, you know my experience has been with another breed and not LGD but are LGDs supposed to be the only protection a flock needs? I was under the impression they were supposed to be an addition to and to help people protect.


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## TriWinkle

Pops,
Thanks for information on wolfhounds. I never knew that...kinda depressing a bit, but still good info.


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## Pops2

pancho said:


> Pops, you know my experience has been with another breed and not LGD but are LGDs supposed to be the only protection a flock needs? I was under the impression they were supposed to be an addition to and to help people protect.


which is absolutley correct & an important point Goatress brought up. too many people have the idea they can throw the dogs out & go sit in the bar all summer. cattle (& their immediate relations) can do w/ a little less involvement but not much. sheep & goats NEED a sheperd in attendance. to aid & guide the dogs. a couple of days alone sure but not weeks & months. there are a lot of misconceptions concerning the use of LGDs. like the spike collar, it isn't the be all end all to guarantee the dogs win over the wolf. it is a small tool that MAY give an edge AND allow the dog the chance to alert the rest of the dogs & the herder.


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## pancho

Pops2 said:


> which is absolutley correct & an important point Goatress brought up. too many people have the idea they can throw the dogs out & go sit in the bar all summer. cattle (& their immediate relations) can do w/ a little less involvement but not much. sheep & goats NEED a sheperd in attendance. to aid & guide the dogs. a couple of days alone sure but not weeks & months. there are a lot of misconceptions concerning the use of LGDs. like the spike collar, it isn't the be all end all to guarantee the dogs win over the wolf. it is a small tool that MAY give an edge AND allow the dog the chance to alert the rest of the dogs & the herder.


Thanks.
Back in the days I went up against a couple of wolves and didn't find them that bad. But I wasn't using LGDs.


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## Goatress

Pops2 said:


> MonsterMalak
> 
> you & Goatress are the ONLY LGD breeders i've run into so far that are being honest w/ yourself (let alone everyone else) about the monumental task ahead. i have seen so much nonsense about how 1 or 2 (GP, ASD, kangal or what ever other breed is preferred by the individual) LGD can hold off a whole pack of wolves, a grizzly bear or kill a mt lion. or how the LGDs will take care of all problems to the end of time & even ship the lambs to market for you. i don't think there is a breed yet developed that is REALLY equiped to take on the BIG northern wolves one up. i think it's possible but will take time to develop. i think the breeds that are still facing wolves (however much smaller they may be) are the best choice for the base from which to develop. i think some outside the box thinking in crosses may be needed to build that breed. and i think putting dogs on the job is the absolute must, first step toward achieving that goal.
> i don't want to be a buzzkill, i just want people to know what they are facing & what they are working with so they can be prepared for what they are getting into.


Pops that is a great compliment you handed us thank you. I am already prepared for the first call to come to me saying "Brenda just calling to let you know your pup/dog I bought from you died the line of fire, fighting off a wolf".... But honestly, the only way we'll know is to get them out there and try. Thats all we can do. And, to kind of go into another area here, that's why I have knocked down my prices, because I WANT the working rancher/farmer to be able to buy one, and not have to hock the car or kids to do it....until we aggressively get these dogs out there in real situations we'll never know if they can pan out or not. I know with some of the breeds I raise, there are lots of breeders who keep prices ridiculously high, thus preventing most real ranchers from ever buying one. But I think that's changing. They don't like it (the breeders) but once people stop buying from them, they are going to find out they can't rip people off so much anymore.

I'm sending three pups to a guy in MT with massive wolf issues and dog losses. He's good about NOT putting them out alone or too young. He runs a big pack. Including catch dogs, which have successfully pulled a wolf from her den and killed it. I will be anxious to hear how my dogs do with his in a situation such as his. Hoping for the best.

Both MonsterMalak and I have and are still taking, a lot of heat from competition, and from those furious with us for what we are trying to get going here, experimentation with new breeds is frowned upon by many, and anyone threatened by us, and there are some out there, trust me - have lashed out but we are both taking it in stride, and I think as time goes by, we'll either fail miserably or our successes will be astronomical. We'll see!!!!

I only know, the whole dynamic of running LGD's is in a sea change right now, and people thank God are really hungry to learn and do it right, and I find that encouraging.


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## Pops2

pancho said:


> Thanks.
> Back in the days I went up against a couple of wolves and didn't find them that bad. But I wasn't using LGDs.


but did you ever match against the 130# plus large type northern wolf? to my knowledge NO one has successfully put a game dog even catchweight against the big boys. the average game dog simply isn't big enough to do the kind of damage needed to beat the really big ones. ultimately they are no more a threat than a fox is to my greyhoundX.


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## Pops2

Goatress
i believe there will be both abysmal failures and great successes. i personally hope within a few years to start building a big game dog that can run in big wolf country. i believe the bigger LGDs, fighting dogs & even some unexpected breeds/types can contribute to building that. i really feel the goal should be to BUILD a breed that can stand up to the big wolves pretty close to one up.


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## MonsterMalak

Pops2 Just let me know when you are ready for your breeding experiment. I will contribute either pup or semien to the cause. 
My friends in VA and NJ hunt Coyotes, Wild boar etc with the Kangal and Boz. A female Kangal was even able to chase and bring down a Whitetail Doe in VA. (irronically while guarding a pasture of goats with Kids).
Another friend uses Kangals and Boz to guard his Miniature Cattle and Goats in Montana. He lives between two packs of wolves. RockyMountainKangal.com

I am in no way saying they could hold their ground against a pack of wolves, but I would venture to say that a 180# Boz could hold his own against the average wolf. NOT PACK!!!!!

As you have said, the pack of wolves at 7-25 strong is a formidable oponent. It will take population control, serious LGDs, MANAGEMENT, training and many hard lessons for most. 

I believe that an average pack will choose to eat at the ranch that has the less capable LGDs, or on wildlife, as opposed to fighting for a meal. But as in many situations, only time will tell.

http://youtu.be/Mcs-tdjcRAk This is a short video of my female Dev being introduced to a 15 month old famale Boz brought out of the pasture to see if they would be compatable.


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## Harlee

Having to present the lgd with the pelt of the animal its supposed to be protecting the flock from would be extremely ignorant.

"oh, that thing must be a wolf, since i saw its pelt, i should attack it"
wouldnt the lgd be pretty bad if it didn't attempt to protect the flock, regardless?


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## oregon woodsmok

My experience with wolves and dogs, on a daily basis for a couple of years, is that almost every dog encountered will immediately attack the wolf. Dogs have to be trained to tolerate the wolf.

The owner of the wolf trained it to perform in basic obedience competition and got it papered to compete in obedience as a Malamute. Then couldn't take it around all those dogs who had never seen a wolf before because of the automatic hostility.

Wolves smell wild and that triggers dogs into the attack mode. Even I can smell the wolf smell in a freshly bathed wolf, I can only imagine how strong they smell to a dog.

I've run a lot of coyotes with a lot of different dogs, both sight hounds and Shepherds and not one of those dogs ever wanted to do anything but chase that coyote down and teach it a lesson. There was no fear of coyotes. Even small dogs who should have more sense will go after a coyote.

If your dog is afraid of wolves, it has a temperament issue and you probably aren't going tot train that away.

Dogs do need to learn how to fight, but the dam should teach them and they practice on their litter mates. If the litter has a proper sire, he will teach the pups all the good moves needed in a fight. What do you think all that play fighting and wrestling is that puppies are doing? That's the doggy version of karate lessons.


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## Goatress

Harlee said:


> Having to present the lgd with the pelt of the animal its supposed to be protecting the flock from would be extremely ignorant.
> 
> "oh, that thing must be a wolf, since i saw its pelt, i should attack it"
> wouldnt the lgd be pretty bad if it didn't attempt to protect the flock, regardless?


Harlee, the Turks have done this for generations. I hardly think the practice is 'ignorant' if its been used for so long, producing Kangals, Malakli and Boz that grow up knowing what and who the enemy is, and are able to successfully deter them and/or kill them in Turkey. If the LGD sights a wolf approaching its flock and runs out to confront it, I call that doing its job: it is taking a stand and protecting the flock. AND...hopefully its workmates are right there too (i.e., we aren't running just one LGD!).


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## pancho

Pops2 said:


> but did you ever match against the 130# plus large type northern wolf? to my knowledge NO one has successfully put a game dog even catchweight against the big boys. the average game dog simply isn't big enough to do the kind of damage needed to beat the really big ones. ultimately they are no more a threat than a fox is to my greyhoundX.


Don't know the bloodlines of the wolves but both I went against were in excess of 100lbs. One dog I used match weight was 51-53lbs. He won even though he didn't have any teeth but he was a grand champion.
The other was off the chain and probably about 60-63lbs. 
Both were larger than average dogs.
They were not your average game dogs. One had won 7 contract matches and the other was a much higher quality dog but his matches weren't contract matches.


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## HorseFeatherz

I have found this thread very interesting. I am mostly a lurker.


I am new to the world of LGD. My background is Mastiffs, with almost all of that 20 years spent with Fila Brasileiro. While Filas are used to protect stock in Brazil, protect property, herd/protect cattle, hunt jaguars and hunt people - mine were basic companion protection dogs. 

I have seen wolves here &#8211; in NV. Had my male Fila challenge a pair along our fence line. Just about gave me a heart attack. Fila charged fence, male wolf came back to give Fila a piece of his mind while the female sat and watched. It was all I could do not to fall down as I scrambled to grab a gun and run out the door. Once I was out and the wolf saw me, the pair high tailed it back up the mountain side. I have no doubt in my mind that my Fila would have stood his ground and followed thru with his attack. Do I think he would have survived? &#8211; I have no idea, I feel he could have held his own against one, but two no way &#8211; he would have tried really, really hard though. I DO know that in January of this year, almost a year ago, at the age of 11 he killed a mountain lion who was on the property and just feet from me in the sagebrush. The dog had only a few surface marks, no bites or deep scratches.

After the Fila passed, I adopted an Anatolian female and started my journey with the LGDs. But I do wonder about the pelt drag.

I know that in Brazil, at a young age a Fila is tested for his/her strength of ojeriza. Those dogs without a suitable temperament are put down, right there on the testing field. Yes, this sounds harsh, but severe culling keeps the ojeriza temperament strong. In the US &#8211; at the time that I was showing (I know people were trying to change the rules) but at the time &#8211; the Fila was the ONLY dog that a show ring judge was not allowed to physically touch or examine. 

I wonder if the pelt test is close to the same thing. Weeding out pups without the desired drive right from the start? The pups/dogs who retreat/run or show no interest in the pelt are put down, while those who attack and try to &#8220;kill&#8221; the pelt are raised and bred.


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## pancho

HorseFeatherz said:


> I DO know that in January of this year, almost a year ago, at the age of 11 he killed a mountain lion who was on the property and just feet from me in the sagebrush. The dog had only a few surface marks, no bites or deep scratches.
> 
> 
> In the US â at the time that I was showing (I know people were trying to change the rules) but at the time â the Fila was the ONLY dog that a show ring judge was not allowed to physically touch or examine.


The backbone of cats seems to be a weak spot. It is something some dogs naturally know, get lucky, or learn. 

It depends on the kennel club if the judge touches the dog or not. Some want the judge to touch them and some do not allow it and some let the judge decide.


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## Wolf Flower

pancho said:


> Don't know the bloodlines of the wolves but both I went against were in excess of 100lbs. One dog I used match weight was 51-53lbs. He won even though he didn't have any teeth but he was a grand champion.


Did people back then just keep zoos of animals for bulldogs to fight? Was this a captive-bred wolf someone kept as a pet, or was it an animal that was trapped and kept in a wild state? How in the world you could transport a live wild wolf (or bear, or wolverine, or wildcat) to a ring and then get it back out without getting mauled is a mystery to me.

And I'm curious, how do you determine the winner when bulldogs are matched with other animals? Is it a fight to the death? I imagine the match would be a lot different when you're not dealing with two game dogs. Are there rules to such a match, or is it just a free-for-all?


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## moonwolf

I live in an area with healthy wolf populations and know of farmers that really could benefit by having Livestock Protection Dogs, especially Kuvasz. The kuvasz that I am familiarized with (my own) do not attract wolves or tend to get called in to the wolf lairs. Thus, are effective in warding off wild wolves, with the help of their human companion. This combination is a best deterrence and very good alternative to the constant threat by humans to annihalate a useful top predator suited for their environment and learn to live with the wildlife in their area.


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## Wolf Flower

HorseFeatherz said:


> I wonder if the pelt test is close to the same thing. Weeding out pups without the desired drive right from the start? The pups/dogs who retreat/run or show no interest in the pelt are put down, while those who attack and try to âkillâ the pelt are raised and bred.


LGDs are not supposed to have prey drive, and chasing and "killing" an object, be it a pelt, a tug toy, or what have you, is an indicator of prey drive. I can't imagine anyone would cull an LGD based on a lack of prey drive. 

I don't see that it would hurt to show a litter of LGD pups a wolf pelt, but I don't imagine it would make much difference, either. If a mature LGD of proper temperament saw a wolf coming near its property, I don't think it would matter if they'd ever seen a wolf pelt before.


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## pancho

Wolf Flower said:


> Did people back then just keep zoos of animals for bulldogs to fight? Was this a captive-bred wolf someone kept as a pet, or was it an animal that was trapped and kept in a wild state? How in the world you could transport a live wild wolf (or bear, or wolverine, or wildcat) to a ring and then get it back out without getting mauled is a mystery to me.
> 
> And I'm curious, how do you determine the winner when bulldogs are matched with other animals? Is it a fight to the death? I imagine the match would be a lot different when you're not dealing with two game dogs. Are there rules to such a match, or is it just a free-for-all?


Bulldogs have been used to fight just about all types of animals, man included.
Some have been captive bred and some have been wild caught, the animals not man.

You would transport it pretty much like a zoo would transport an animal.

There are a couple of sets of rules people use in a match but these are usually only used in game dog matches. Cajun rules is the most common. Matches between a bull dog and a wild animal are usually to the death, or until the animal escapes, or when the one person admits defeat. There really isn't a set of rules for matches between bulldogs and other animals. Sometimes a contract will be made or some agreement made.

Contrary to what many people and say, wild animals do not do very good in a match. If they are anywhere close to the bulldogs weight it is usually over before it even starts. If the wild animal is twice the weight of the bulldog it will last longer. Wild animals do not fight just for the sport of it so it isn't an inbred trait. If they begin to loose they will run and escape if possible. If escape is impossible many will just lay down and be killed.
It didn't take long for some men to learn this so it is easy for some to take advantage of those who haven't learned this.


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## HorseFeatherz

pancho said:


> The backbone of cats seems to be a weak spot. It is something some dogs naturally know, get lucky, or learn.
> 
> It depends on the kennel club if the judge touches the dog or not. Some want the judge to touch them and some do not allow it and some let the judge decide.


He had crushed the rib cage on the cat and would not surprise me if he had broke it's back. 


At the time I showed - club did not matter and the judge's desire to touch the dog did not matter. It was in the ARBA (American Rare Breed Association) rule books. Filas where not shown AKC or CKC. The rules where consistant - in the US and Canada. When a judge was ready to look at a bite - the handle opened lips and showed the judge the bite.


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## HorseFeatherz

Wolf Flower said:


> LGDs are not supposed to have prey drive, and chasing and "killing" an object, be it a pelt, a tug toy, or what have you, is an indicator of prey drive. I can't imagine anyone would cull an LGD based on a lack of prey drive.
> 
> I don't see that it would hurt to show a litter of LGD pups a wolf pelt, but I don't imagine it would make much difference, either. If a mature LGD of proper temperament saw a wolf coming near its property, I don't think it would matter if they'd ever seen a wolf pelt before.



I understand they are not supposed to have prey drive.

But there has to be some type of drive or insinct to protect and challenge a dog/coyote/cat etc. And I wonder if this is the test that is being performed in their home/native country.

I don't have first hand experience, but I have read and been told - if a person is looking a GP for LGD - to be sure and get one from working lines vs. show lines. The show lines do not have as strong a protection drive as a working line does. Again, I am just learning. But I take to mean, that just as with ojeriza - the protection drive can be breed out or "lost".


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## pancho

HorseFeatherz said:


> He had crushed the rib cage on the cat and would not surprise me if he had broke it's back.
> 
> 
> At the time I showed - club did not matter and the judge's desire to touch the dog did not matter. It was in the ARBA (American Rare Breed Association) rule books. Filas where not shown AKC or CKC. The rules where consistant - in the US and Canada. When a judge was ready to look at a bite - the handle opened lips and showed the judge the bite.


At one time I was a UKC judge. Also judged ADBA for a while. There were some dogs I didn't want to touch. When I showed dogs I found out it was easy to get some dogs disqualified without anyone knowing what was going on. Lots of things go on in a dog show that affects the outcome that most people are not aware of.

I alwaya liked the filas. Good looking dogs.


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## Wolf Flower

HorseFeatherz said:


> But there has to be some type of drive or insinct to protect and challenge a dog/coyote/cat etc. And I wonder if this is the test that is being performed in their home/native country.


It is defense drive and resource guarding; it is inborn and instinctual. The way to test for it is to see what the dog does when it sees a predator. As far as I know, there isn't any shortcut to test it. A pelt is not going to appear threatening, so I don't think it would be of any use in testing for defense drive. Defense drive does not start to come out until a certain age, so you can't just show a 7 week old puppy a coyote and expect it to fight, but I'd expect to see some defensive behaviors showing up around 6 months or so, depending on the breed and individual dog.


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## Goatress

FYI...wolves are not PREY, they are predators. Don't confuse the two. LGD's attacking a predator is exactly what they are supposed to do...keep them at bay from their stock (which will be the PREY that the wolves are after.) Hope that clarifies things.

PREY drive is a dog going after its stock...like an LGD chasing lambs, goats, etc. No this is not desirable. But going after predators is.


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## MonsterMalak

I can understand the confusion between PREY DRIVE and DEFENSE DRIVE. I was always of the opinion that the LGDs MUST have a low PREY DRIVE,,,, which I still do belive they do have.

But when I learned of friends that use their functioning Kangal and Boz LGDs to go out on the weekend to HUNT Wild Boar, Rabbits, Squirrel, Whitetail and Coyotes,,,, I have to rethink!!!
The same dogs that are great hunters of varied game are brought home to be placed right back in the pasture with their Goats with Kids, free range chickens etc...

I have to wonder if although they have at least some Prey Drive,, they also have a strong Bonding and Defense Drive. At my farm, my Kangals and Boz will protect anything I bring home and introduce to them. The introduction seems to be the key. Without it,,, it may be killed. Show them it is something I accept,,, and they will protect it. 

New species are accepted after an introduction and brief period of seperation. First time they saw goats, they would have been slaughtered. But after having in a pen for 2 weeks, and allowing them to walk up and see that I was accepting, things changed. After that, I was able to place the dogs in the pen without any form of aggression or play. After a week or two in the pen, they choose to stay with the goats if given a choice. I understand this is not the accepted mode of LGD training,,, but it is adequate with these breeds.

As far as the controversy over wether or not a pelt could or should be introduced to a pup,,,, Why not? It could function as a selection tool. And I also see that it could also function as an imprinting tool. If a pup can imprint on the smell of sheep or goats as pups,,, why not allow them to imprint on their intended advisary. To make statements of "ignorant" without trial or knowledge of its effectivness seems odd. To bash a cultural practice thousands of years old from a very effective LGD Shepherding People seems harsh. I would have to ask,,,, what would it hurt?

**** Hunters often introduce smells and "toys" to their pups. To say that a **** dog should know what to go chase is no different than saying a LGD should know what to go defend from. Although I have to say, they seem to figure it out by themselves,,, but what would it hurt.


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## Ross

I thought the LGD used an instinctive territorial drive and sense of pack/herd protection to defend against intruders (all types). The primary method of defence being a deterrent roll rather than proactive or seeking out a fight. 

What's the harm? Pure speculation (on my part) but if you encourage a proactive fight you play in to a wolf packs strategy to lure away the protector/s and kill the sheep while they are off fighting a small part of the wolf pack. Just a thought.


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## MonsterMalak

Different breeds of LGD work differently. Some only repell the predators from the flock, others try to elliminate the predator that tries to come to close.

The Turkish breeds work to actively keep the predators as far away as possible. Their intelligence must keep them from leaving the flock to long. I noticed that my dogs seem to take turns going out for the chase. One or some stay back. Some nights, the dogs are running out in the woods quite frequently. When I had just two dogs, they litterally took turns.

I have never tried the pelt trick, and my dogs either just know what to do, or learn from the others. My cats are well tollerated, but raccoons and possums are killed instantly. Neighbors dogs are tollerated, but coyotes are pursued with vigor. But I also would not see harm in imprinting wolf smell on the pups. May not work for some LGDs, but seems to work for the Turkish breeds.


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## Lisa in WA

MonsterMalak said:


> A friend living in Montana between the territories of two wolf packs runs Kangals and Boz and Boz Kangal crosses. He raises miniature cattle and goats. He sent me a picture of one of the packs of wolves walking single file through a snow covered valley. I couldnt count them (on my phone screen), but there is more than two dozen wolves.


If it's the same photo of many wolves walking single file thru a snowy valley, it's been circulating all over the place and has been attributed to Idaho wolves as well. In reality it was taken by wildlife photographer Chadden Hunter and was taken in a Canadian national park.

http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005139659


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## MonsterMalak

I stand corrected on the PACK. Either my friend or myself was mis informed. 
The picture was the same one????? Go figure!


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## Ed Norman

MonsterMalak said:


> I stand corrected on the PACK. Either my friend or myself was mis informed.
> The picture was the same one????? Go figure!


A lady I talked to a few weeks back actually works with the guy that took it, and saw the video on his cell phone, and pointed at the mountain it came from. And of course, it was taken in dozens of other places, too. Like that big mountain lion that got run over last year. He was killed all over the US.  Ain't the internet fun?


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