# Horse Power vs Horsepower?



## th_Wolverine (Apr 15, 2013)

So I've been told bottom line is Horse eats hay, tractor eats gas. Either way your spending money on hay or diesel. I like the _idea_ of using a team rather than tractor, especially if I am going to be getting my own hay. I've been around horses a lot and I'm a decent rider but I know riding a Tennessee walker and driving a team of Percherons is completely different. 

Anyone work with teams plowing? Anyone work with both? Look'n for someone who actually knows what they're doing! hahaha!


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

You will come out better using a tractor...by far. It doesn't eat when sitting and when you use it it doesn't get tired...it can work longer than you care to work.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Horses eat hay when you use them and when you don't. Tractors use fuel when you use them, but not when you don't. Horses are a lot slower than tractors. Driving a team is harder than driving a tractor.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I've only seen one man in my lifetime that made a constant profit farming with horses. He had two Belgain mares he used with old horse drawn equipment. He put up his own hay. 
But his "safety cushion" was the fact that he had high quality horses and sold foals each year. I used to watch him working with his team while a foal or two frisked around. With horse prices they way they are today, I'm not sure it would be profitable currently.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

There's a local man that uses a team (Belgians) to log. He has a decent niche market because the horses aren't as hard on the land as a skidder and the team can get into places that a skidder or tractor can't. He only cuts enough for a log load once a week or so tho.


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## th_Wolverine (Apr 15, 2013)

Oh no doubt a tractor would be more _ efficient_ i'd be more into it just to be able to say I could do it. i want to have one on hand anyways for other things, but I like the idea of plowing with animals because I love animals and old time skills lol


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## th_Wolverine (Apr 15, 2013)

And I'm looking to self sustain not really make money off of it per say


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

A big part of the issue using horses for farming, is that you need to use them OFTEN, as in regularly, each week, to keep them fit AND good workers. Using unfit horses to work hard will hurt them, because they are not muscled up, conditioned for that kind of work.

They also will be better at following directions they hear OFTEN, instead of just once a month or so. The other basic fact is that hitching and doing things with horses is slower paced, takes longer every single time you get them out. You will need to care for the harness, clean and condition leather, wash it if synthetic, check to make sure the parts aren't worn enough to break with a load. For folks used to working on schedules, that can drive them crazy, because with the equines, it never takes an EXACT amount of time to get things done. 

You also will have upkeep, Farrier every 6-8 weeks for trims or shoes if you work them hard enough. Vet visit for vaccinations, teeth work. Plus the horses need grooming, being checked physically to keep them healthy. Daily handling to keep them from being feral animals! That daily handling goes a LONG way to keeping them friendly, obedient to you, instead of thinking for themselves.

I would suggest you do some on-line searches and take some Driving School courses, before investing in horses or equipment. Kathy Zahm used to do that stuff in Indiana, lessons, training, Clinics for the Draft horse folks. Website is not updated, but you could call her for information.

http://www.cathyzahmdrafttraining.com/

There are other places that also put on stuff like that. Better to know what you are doing going into it, than spend your money and decide it isn't any fun. Much less likely to get hurt with horses if you have lessons first. Driving, and handling Drafts in work, is NOT like TV or the movies. Everything is very different than riding horses.

Best idea is to be safe! Work with folks who can show you the safest methods to do your harnessing, hitching, get into the work mode like plowing, without getting hurt.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

th_Wolverine said:


> And I'm looking to self sustain not really make money off of it per say


To self sustain, you have to get as close to breaking even that you can. It is harder to do that with horses.

Want to know how to make a small fortune with horses? Just start out with a large fortune.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRJmbGyCLBw[/ame]


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## th_Wolverine (Apr 15, 2013)

goodhors said:


> A big part of the issue using horses for farming, is that you need to use them OFTEN, as in regularly, each week, to keep them fit AND good workers. Using unfit horses to work hard will hurt them, because they are not muscled up, conditioned for that kind of work.
> 
> They also will be better at following directions they hear OFTEN, instead of just once a month or so. The other basic fact is that hitching and doing things with horses is slower paced, takes longer every single time you get them out. You will need to care for the harness, clean and condition leather, wash it if synthetic, check to make sure the parts aren't worn enough to break with a load. For folks used to working on schedules, that can drive them crazy, because with the equines, it never takes an EXACT amount of time to get things done.


Ok that makes a LOT of sense! So if I plan on using them, I should plan on using them a lot? To make it worth while it sounds like I have to do more than just plow with them during planting season. I had planned on harvesting with them, but what are good ways to be sure that happens? 

like this? hahaha!


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

haypoint said:


> Want to know how to make a small fortune with horses? Just start out with a large fortune.


I've never heard that one before haypoint, put it in the brain bank for use later!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Yes, you can do it. It won't be easy and it won't be cheap. Plan on attending Horse Progress Days.
I've used work horses to skid logs, sled hundreds of cords of firewood. I've plowed fields, disked and planted using horses. I've hauled wagon loads of baled hay, done sleigh rides and pulled a float in a Christmas Parade. 
I learned how to drive a single horse, a team and four abreast. I learned how to trim hooves and set shoes. I learned to stay away from old harnesses and fence row machinery. I learned how to judge a sound horse and how to keep one healthy. I've depended on penicillin and ESe. 
I made a firewood hauler out of a flat sided fuel oil tank and a pair of Jeep bumpers.
I've pulled a bred mare out of a shallow watering hole after she drowned and I've buried a couple faithful farming companions.
I've witnessed the miracle of birth and spent thousands in fruitless attempts to get mares bred.

Here is a photo of an Amish field of Spelt. Drying, soon to be pitched into the thresh machine.


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## th_Wolverine (Apr 15, 2013)

Wow, I am impressed! one fellow I talked to said any time he has a new team, he just pays the Amish in town to take them for 2 weeks and they come back in great shape ready to work together. What's the benefit to this as opposed to trying to train them yourself? And is Amish a good route or are they overpriced because they are a "name brand"?

How old should a good team be when we 3 get started?


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

These are the things you learn when you go to a Draft horse clinic or take lessons from an instructor! 

Amish seems to equal Horse Person, which MIGHT or might NOT mean the Amish person is a skilled trainer for Draft horses. In real life, Amish folks are like us, so some are wonderful horse trainers, and other Amish folks shouldn't have ANY kind of horses. You sure can't tell by looking at some Amish folks, which kind they are. Getting recommends from folks who have gotten horses trained by a GOOD Amish trainer, likes his methods, likes the results on their animals, is the best way to choose a trainer for your horses.

What I have seen is probably the commonest, which is Amish who use their horses like farm equipment. When the time comes, they hitch and use them to plow the ground, plant, even if horses have NOT been worked some or at all, since last fall. The better ones will trade off at lunch, get new horses out for "2nd shift" to continue working. Others continue using the same horses, who got a bit of rest time during lunch. You take a big chance of horse who is unfit hurting themselves with sprains and strains. Think "Monday Morning Quarterbacks" who played hard at their sport on Saturday and Sunday, but never work to get fit. They HURT from overexertion, though those plow horses probably hurt worse! Sending out your unfit horses to the Amish guys to work HARD for a couple weeks in Spring, may get you back some injured horses. 

The other trick is getting Amish horses, then not working them like the Amish do, which is DAILY. Those horses are probably FIT at purchase and full of vinegar when you leave them sit a while, before hitching and trying to use them. Like trying to make kids sit still after feeding them candy and ice cream!! They can be GREAT horses for farm work, but not keeping them worked is asking for trouble. They are made to work, NEED a job that keeps them busy and gets them tired often. Us English folks don't usually work our horses hard enough to break a sweat, which is nothing close to how Amish horses are used daily. And there is a LOT to those old sayings, about tired horses being among the best horses!

For what you want to do, probably an older pair of horses, geldings, would be a better choice for you. They should have road experiences, been out and seen a lot, so they are more settled in reactions, than young horses are. Older animals could be just perfect for your smaller amount of work, but not able to work enough for the Amish folks to keep them on. Geldings don't come into season, more likely to keep the same temperament year around, over mares. You don't much know what you are doing yet, so older horses SHOULD be a bit more forgiving of mistakes, so you don't wreck the training like can happen with younger animals if you are not consistant, or "captain of the ship" in your driving requests. Old can be REALLY old, over 20yrs, or upper teens, with horses still able to do what you want in work. Most folks are going to answer if you ask the RIGHT questions! They don't volunteer stuff.

Any chance of just going over and helping the Amish guys where your friend sends his horses? You could go work with them, learn about harnessing, commands, techniques with the equipment, so you have knowledge for later on.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

A novice like yourself and most of us, risk having a serious accident while trying to teach a horse to work. 
If you can't control a new horse when harnessed, you get a run away. Horses that can be lead around with a halter and rope can suddenly frighten when in harness. The horse will carry that experience for many years. Do it twice and you may have ruined a good horse. Successful horse training experiences need to be positive.

If you have a steady well trained horse that you can hook with your "green" horse, there won't be a run away, your horse learns to follow commands by keying off the broke horse. Repetition is important. 

I have broke many work horses. More recently, due to a job location change, I took an unruly 3 year old mare to an Amish family that were highly recommended. In a few weeks she was pulling the corn binder and hauling wagons of corn stalk bundles. Very steady. 
The following year, I sent them another horse. The results were fair. The following year I brought them a 2000 pound 5 year old gelding that was broke to lead. They did an awful job. Seems, the good horseman had married and moved away, leaving a couple inexperienced siblings to take up the slack. They had two run-aways and then only hitched him a few times. 
Amish are all different. But, in general, they know horses and they are there every day. Boarding and training cost me $150 a month. I gave them extra sweet feed, hay and a tip when they did it right. 
Horses that are pasture ornaments stay fat. When worked regularly, they lose weight. I've never known an Amish to over feed. So, expect your horse to come home with the training to help you get some work done, but a lot thinner.


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## th_Wolverine (Apr 15, 2013)

I suppose it's like the old adage, just because she's Italian, dosn't mean she can cook a good Meatball! hahaha. Well one of the things i like about the idea of having draft horses, is I am not a fan of cars, and it would be neat, (though hard work and a lot of time) to make having a good team worth my while. 

http://www.pioneerfarmequipment.com/HOMESTEADER, BUCKBOARD, CRUMBLER, GANG MOWER.htm

They seem to have every kind of horse drawn thing you can imagine!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

th_Wolverine said:


> I suppose it's like the old adage, just because she's Italian, dosn't mean she can cook a good Meatball! hahaha. Well one of the things i like about the idea of having draft horses, is I am not a fan of cars, and it would be neat, (though hard work and a lot of time) to make having a good team worth my while.
> 
> http://www.pioneerfarmequipment.com/HOMESTEADER, BUCKBOARD, CRUMBLER, GANG MOWER.htm
> 
> They seem to have every kind of horse drawn thing you can imagine!


Pioneer makes good products, but they are only one of many manufactures of horse powered equipment. Find out when and where Horse Progress Days is this year. www.horseprogressdays.com and see it all in action.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Owning and working draft horses is a lifestyle and not a hobby. I love it. Although there are some mornings - usually when everything is froze up and the power is out, or when everything is soaked with three weeks of rain and about 37 degrees and my back hurts and there's shoveling to be done - that I wish they were tractors and I could just opt not to turn the key that morning. It surely is not for the faint of heart! But so very satisfying and rewarding.


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## Raymond James (Apr 15, 2013)

The Guide to Self-Sufficiency by John Seymour iSBN 0-910990-62-2 has a great chapter on this. 

I know a retired man who bought an 25+ old team of Belgium mares who really enjoyed playing with them. He drove them hitched to a wagon at least three days a week and did some small plot plowing/disking in season. He often loaned them for light work back to his Amish neighbors. For him this was a great decision. 

If you know how to care for the horses already that is a plus. Still lots to learn and you cannot teach an animal what you do not know. 

I would only do it if you had neighbors who farmed with horses nearby. Get an older team - some mares that still have a foal or two in them. Plan on driving them just to be driving them if you enjoy doing this and have time great. Take classes or go work your neighbors teams before you get yours. loan them often to someone who knows what they are doing and will work them with in there limits. 


If you have to work off farm and run your place think hard about the tractor. If you live in snow country and cannot afford both a team and a tractor/bobcat/machinery to clear driveway get the machinery. 

My Amish neighbors hire me and others to use our trucks, trailers, heavy machinery and tractors to so jobs that they either cannot do or would take a very long time to do with there horses. You can dig a pond with a team, plow and a scrapper but I have never seen it done. They use bulldozers, bobcat or a tractor with front end loader. Took the tractor and trailer over to a Amish place to get some logs moved to the saw mill also operated by the Amish 4 miles away. Could a team with ropes /chains loaded the logs onto a wagon and then pulled the wagon to the mill yes but it would have taken much longer. 

Still things to learn about tractors but most can at least drive one down a road without any practice, you may already have tools, battery charger if not you will most likely need them for your truck/car. 

If you get a tractor- front end loader with quick connect system for the bucket/implements, modern hydraulics , Roll over bar, 4 wheel drive, wide front end not a row model and no smaller than a 35 to 40 hp. 

When you consider implements horse or machine driven talk to your neighbors - consider joint purchases or each buying something to share. Not everyone has to have a bailer /disc/ hay rake you just need access to them. 

Also consider that for plowing/ disking an established garden I know many people who use there cart or riding horse these are families who do not do field work and do not have a draft team. Small equipment, small area to work, short work day with lots of breaks. If the garden is new and you are breaking sod get a draft team or a tractor to do it. 

I knew a quarter horse that was used for both riding and to pull a small wagon. I have also seen draft horses ridden though usually a short distance without saddle.


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## RachieT123 (Mar 13, 2013)

These guys use a team for all of the work and make a pretty nice profit from their farm. 
http://www.riverboundfarm.com/index.html
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Riverbound-Farm/119469301398738?id=119469301398738&sk=photos_stream


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

I love the name of the thread. That was a very creative title.


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## th_Wolverine (Apr 15, 2013)

mekasmom said:


> I love the name of the thread. That was a very creative title.


Hahaha thanks, Im a Communications Major lol


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