# Farm Dogs



## Zeet_Cranberry (Jan 11, 2011)

We're almost finished building our hobby farm on six acres (house, barn, pond). We already have rabbits, and have plans for chickens and a small herd of sheep. Thinking about a dog and leaning toward an English Shepard. I know English Shepards aren't technically LGD, but this dog would be outside all the time, and trained to watch over the property, animals, etc. We have taken the advice given in a previous thread that in our situation a dog that wants to be with us is probably better than a LGD that is more independent.

We have read that outside farm dogs may do better with a companion dog. What's your experience with one vs. multiple dogs. Then, if there are two is it better to have two males, two females, mixed?


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Zeet_Cranberry said:


> What's your experience with one vs. multiple dogs. Then, if there are two is it better to have two males, two females, mixed?



You asked.....grin....

http://www.lgdnevada.com/The_CDR_Difference.php

And:

http://www.livestockguardiandogs.com/raising-and-running-lgd-s-in-a-pack-environment-t26.html


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I want more LGD's, I just love my boys and wish the field was full of them.

Zeet, my dogs guard the sheep YES. But when I am out cleaning stalls Boomer follows me and checks on me. He will place his nose in my hand to tell me he's there and give me a head pat. LGD's like attention too. But yes they are independent. In other words if they are going after something it will be almost impossible to call them off, especially as I found out if Ziggy is in persuit of a field mouse...LOL My boys love us, they like coming up to the house but only when the sheep are in the yard.
I dont let my house dog 112lb lab hang out with them. My boys know him and have sniffed him and knows he is the house dog. But I do not want my LGD's picking up any bad habits from him.

If I were you, which I am not, I would start out with an LGD. Once you have livestock loss you will wish you did too.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

I have both, although our pyr is bonded to us, not livestock. We got him to protect the kids when they are outside playing. Too many mtn lions, bears and wolves too close!

Anyway, the pyr is 4 and the eng shepherd is only 8 months, but we have noticed that they work together something awesome! The ES is constantly on the lookout for anything out of place. She sounds off whenever she find it and the pyr comes running. Although he thinks she's nuts for worrying about the fact a chicken is loose!  Between the two of them, they'll handle _anything_. The ES is learning to put loose animals back where they belong and they both patrol and guard the place.

I didn't see your previous thread, so don't know your situation. How big is your place? Are the sheep close enough that you can keep an eye on them so just need warning? Or are they far enough off they need their own protector? Whatever the situation and whatever you end up going with, since you're only looking at two, I'd go for one of each gender.


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## Zeet_Cranberry (Jan 11, 2011)

We've got six acres, but after house, barn, pond and gardens there are only 2+ acres for pasture. Any pastured animals will be relatively close, though something sneaking in could get there quicker than us. We don't have the full property fenced and are on a fairly busy road so have been advised away from a LGD who may roam. The ES seems more of a "clingy" type who will stay closer....though that will depend on training.


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## Faithful (Jul 15, 2011)

About 10 0r so years ago we had dogs I guess they may have been strays , they would not come around when were were home,but when we left thy would come a kill our goats Istarted looking for a dog to guard our goats and found our Angel she was a anatolian great pyr. mix,and from then on our goats have been safe.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

Think it depends on the dog whether they need a companion. We always had multiple dogs (Aussie Sheps), and they stayed close together all day, but they would also go venturing together. When they passed, we got a really smart cattledog pup. She never liked it when other dogs came to visit, like it hurt her feelings, "What?!? Am I not good enough?" Hell on coyotes, but lapdogs would take the bone right out of her mouth. She was really happiest alone to do her duty.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

You would have to research each breed to find the right one for you. Six acres isn't much of an area to a dog that has been breed to move sheep through the mountains. Can you stand a barker?

Six acres isn't much for a collie either, though they tend to stay closer to home. However, some of the collies will roam when they get bored and are not suitable to be left outside all day.

What type of deterrent you need depends on what's out there. Possibly, all you need is a good electric fence. In your situation I'd put up an electric fence. If that wasn't enough I'd add a guardian donkey or two. If that wasn't enough I'd start thinking about a dog that lives with the sheep.

Just lost a sheep to probably coydogs. She had decided to separate herself from the rest of the herd and got attacked. The donkeys ran off the predators, but it was too late. This is the sort of problem that can happen whether you use llamas, donkeys, or dogs.


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## Mickey (Aug 28, 2002)

If you've never owned a English Shepherd I would suggest you ask around to get opinions of folks that have one. I bought a pup last year and as far I'm concerned she was the biggest mistake I've ever made. There was a thread on the board some time ago asking for opinions about various breeds of dogs for a farm setting and there were several folks that had the same low opinion of the breed that I have. I can't tell you how much I wish I had known about it BEFORE I bought this dog :-(


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## simplepeace (Oct 29, 2005)

Mickey said:


> If you've never owned a English Shepherd I would suggest you ask around to get opinions of folks that have one. I bought a pup last year and as far I'm concerned she was the biggest mistake I've ever made. There was a thread on the board some time ago asking for opinions about various breeds of dogs for a farm setting and there were several folks that had the same low opinion of the breed that I have. I can't tell you how much I wish I had known about it BEFORE I bought this dog :-(


Please elaborate! I have never heard a bad thing, I would really be interested in truthful points about the breed.

Thanks!


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## Mickey (Aug 28, 2002)

Hmmm, well, when I asked the breeder if they were ALL this hyper her response to me was "Well they ARE pretty "busy." And when I asked if hers lived in the house she replied "Well they come in for a visit once in awhile." I made it clear to her in all of our phone conversations that this dog was to be my companion/housepet. Wouldn't you think she might have told me that this breed might not be the best choice for a housepet BEFORE I bought her. 

Now Bree hasn't ever hurt any of my other animals (goats, cow and chickens), but I would agree with those who say it wouldn't be a good idea to just leave her with them without supervision because I'm pretty sure she would run them into the ground. 
Definitely NOT a breed for livestock protection.

And before anyone wants to jump in with the thought that she just needs a little training, let me say that I have trained many dogs in my time and I have been working 
with her ever since the day she arrived here. She is trained to walk nicely on leash, comes on command, does down and sit on command. But even with all that she's still like a bull in a china shop. She doesn't walk anywhere, always running. Definitely not a good breed to have for a housepet :-(


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## simplepeace (Oct 29, 2005)

Thanks Mickey, I gotcha. That is a bummer.

Just as an aside (kind of) Do you know if they were heavily bred lines with BC or Aussie? When I was doing research I tended to avoid those (because I wouldn't have a lot of herding for dog to do - just general work). 

I just wonder if it makes a difference, or if maybe it is just the line? I have heard that some are a bit more crazy for work than others.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I haven't owned one, but out of the 6 I've seen 4 had aggression issues. Two of those were put down because of it. None of these had BC or Aussie in them. Well unless you look way back on the history of the breed. They all go back to similar dogs if you go back far enough. The difference is English Shepherds are bred for a multi purpose farm dog/pet by basically backyard breeders. The reason I say it that way is that they don't typically get their dogs out into competition with others of the breed to better the dogs, like you would see in other breeds. They still retain a little of their herding instinct from generations long ago, just like some of the breeds that are now bred for pet/show. If they don't get their dogs out to compete how are they going to know what to look for when choosing mates? How are they going to know the temperament of the dog around other strange dogs and livestock? How are they going to know if it is the dog doing the work, or half trained dairy cows that would come in anyway? When I first started getting into border collies I had no idea what to look for in a good dog. I had no business breeding them either. Over the years I learned from those who had been in it longer than I by meeting them at trials and clinics. 
One of the biggest reasons many herding dogs now do not retain the talent they were bred for is that people are breeding for other things and do not test their dog enough on their herding ability through advanced training and competition. Herding tests are the norm nowadays and that is just not enough. My min pin mix could pass one of those. On the English Shepherd site the suggestions of what to look for in a dog are no better than an instinct test. The dogs are basically being bred with little to no regard for herding talent, temperament, or structure. If you really like the breed, best thing to do is go look at the parents(in action). You want the parents to show very little interest in stock so you won't have as much trouble training pup to leave yours alone. Then neuter or spay the dog. Out of the 6 English Shepherds I worked with only 1 showed enough interest to get the job done(she is a very sweet dog too). The two aggressive ones were a danger to stock, and the other three were lucky to show more than 5 minutes of livestock interest. They are not lgd's


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

I have heard a lot of that about ES. All I can say is be VERY choosy about the breeder and the pup. Mine is nice and laid back, not hyper at all. A nice change from the BC's and aussie's! She doesn't have any herding tendency to speak of, outside of putting chickens away, but I didn't get her for that. Don't need it. She's hyper sensitive to anything off kilter, though. I know immediately when an animal is out or a predator is in or an animal is acting different (drives her nuts when the goats go into heat)

I have seen total failures, though. My big thing is that the breeders always want to pick the dog. I have never seen that work out well. Took me years to find one that let me pick out my own dog. I think ES are like any other breed. Some good, some bad, a few really bad and a few really good. Now that they are getting popular, they'll probably go downhill. That's what usually seems to happen. Because of competitions, in my opinion.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

I don't know anything about the ES, sounds like there is good and bad out there as in any breed. 

thermopkt, I've also seen instances where breeders demanded to 'choose the right pup' for someone. You are right it rarely works out well. Personally I never do that, I might make suggestions to someone based on what they have told me they want and prefer, but ultimately it is the buyer's choice, and if I'm taking money from them I had darned well better let them buy what they want or shut up! 

As for the validity of temperament testing all you have to do is google it and you'll see what's out there ( a whole bunch ) on the pros and also, the myriad of fallacies of temperament tests and how many testing results can be shot full of holes: they often give you absolutely no guarantee what that pup will be like when grown. Basically it sounds to me like you need a farm companion/guardian cross and you can narrow down breeds by preferences of hair length, overall breed attributes, size, upkeep, health issues, etc. Best of luck to you in finding your right pup and the responsible caring breeder who can give you what you need....


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## Mickey (Aug 28, 2002)

Sorry, but I don't know anything about the bc/aussie connection.
My dog doesn't seem to be at all aggressive, but if you go to the ES site you will see they do mention aggression issues so something to look out for.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Mickey said:


> Sorry, but I don't know anything about the bc/aussie connection.
> My dog doesn't seem to be at all aggressive, but if you go to the ES site you will see they do mention aggression issues so something to look out for.


I didn't see a connection either. Nobody is recommending either of those breeds to the op.


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## beaglady (Oct 7, 2002)

I have five English shepherds, and they live in the house. Two of them are less than a year old,and they don't get to be loose in the house when we're not home, but the older ones do. It seems like young ES do normal, annoying bad puppy stuff when no one is supervising, and after losing several tasty shoes in the process, I just prevent it now. 

As with any breed of dog, there are individual variations within different lines, as far as different abilities. Some ES live on farms with large flocks of sheep, or on dairies where herding lots of animals over long distances is part of their daily work. Some are selected to do well on small homesteads, where they help put up the poultry at night, find escaped kids, and keep the human kids in the yard. Some lines are more protective than others. Some breeders socialize their pups to a variety of different people and animals, which makes them more adaptable. Some don't. 

Any time a person is looking for a dog for a specific function, I think its important to do a lot of research on different lines, and talk to more than one breeder. Not doing this can increase your chances of ending up with the wrong individual dog, though not necessarily the wrong breed. 

Back to the OP's question about 2 dogs. Don't, at least to start off. One ES will stay home and watch over things. 2 will end up running and playing, and end up exploring the neighborhood, at least while they're young. 

In my experience, ES are good dogs. Obvioulsy, I love them, or I wouldn't have several. On some e-groups, though, they've been touted as being so wonderful and perfect than they just magically do exactly what is needed, without any training. No. They're thinkers who will observe your way of doing things, and in many cases, help enforce your rules. Or they may make their own if yours are unclear. They're not beginner dogs, or dogs for folks who don't provide consistent leadership.


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