# Caesars Entertainment (Harrah's) announces bankruptcy



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Caesars Entertainment (formerly Harrah's) has announced plans for bankruptcy in January, in an attempt to bring their approximately $23 billion debt load under control. The bankruptcy deal reached with creditor banks will effectively refinance approximately $18 billion of that debt.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/el...s-said-be-lining-creditors-january-bankruptc/

Caesars owns and operates about 50 properties, many in Las Vegas including Caesars Palace, Flamingo, Harrah's, Rio, and Paris.

I suspect that a large ingredient in this deal is optimism, since the company is currently losing money at a rate of $300 million per month. But I believe we're facing another 4 or 5 years of recession. I think they'll need a lot more than reorganization to survive. I've been waiting for one or more luxury resorts to go under, and now it's started. I suspect that Wynn's is also in trouble.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Thanks, Obama.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Wouldn't bother me in the least to see the whole strip shut down.

Vegas was a pipe dream whose time was a forgone conclusion before it began.


Water is the very lifeblood of a desert town. Without it, everything dies.
The town's drying up and blowing away.....
Let it go Nevada.....let it go.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

I also see a component of this (but not all of it) as the great shakeout in gambling. Atlantic City closed up and online gambling has affected the marketplace as well.


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

I thought the house always won.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Oggie said:


> Thanks, Obama.


I blame this mostly on poor planning and management. The luxury resort business model is way overbuilt in Las Vegas. Put in simple terms, Caesars was looking for $200/night hotel customers, but there aren't enough customers to go around. The old Las Vegas business model of bringing in customers with inexpensive rooms, food, drinks, and entertainment to make it up in the casino is long gone, at least on the Strip.

The recession does, of course, play a part in the supply of $200/night customers. But that started before Obama was president. The Caesars bankruptcy has been a long time in coming, and there are other properties in trouble. Keep your eye on Wynns, and also the Cosmopolitan. They're bleeding money too.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

I wouldn't be blaming the economy on this problem.

When I was a young adult - some 30 years ago - the only casinos and gambling around were Las Vegas or Atlantic City. 

Since I'm on the East Coast, I used to go on a day long bus trip to Atlantic City (I've never been to Vegas). Those days are long gone - I have 3 casinos in Pennsylvania within a 1 1/2 - 2 hour drive and 1 casino in New York within a 2 1/2 hour drive.

I no longer go to Atlantic City - I couldn't tell you the last time I was there - no reason to since I have all the gambling I would ever want right here in my state.

I would like to make it to Vegas at some point - but with more and more casinos opening up in other states, Vegas and Atlantic City aren't the only places to gamble anymore.

Anytime I'm at a casino, there isn't a lack of people.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Nevada said:


> I blame this mostly on poor planning and management. The luxury resort business model is way overbuilt in Las Vegas. Put in simple terms, Caesars was looking for $200/night hotel customers, but there aren't enough customers to go around. The old Las Vegas business model of bringing in customers with inexpensive rooms, food, drinks, and entertainment to make it up in the casino is long gone, at least on the Strip.
> 
> The recession does, of course, play a part in the supply of $200/night customers. But that started before Obama was president. The Caesars bankruptcy has been a long time in coming, and there are other properties in trouble. Keep your eye on Wynns, and also the Cosmopolitan. They're bleeding money too.



It was also pretty cold here this morning and as I get older, I seem to get a little less flexible on days like this, so my bones almost seem to creak. 

Thanks, Obama.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Seems to me the deal that started this was consummated in 2008. The investors bought at the high and have suffered the same consequences as many homeowners who made the same mistake- real estate always increases in value. That some if the creditors will come out mostly whole leaving others to hold an empty bag is the American way, right? I'm sure the execs in charge of multi billion dollar losses have continued to cash their paychecks.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> Seems to me the deal that started this was consummated in 2008. The investors bought at the high and have suffered the same consequences as many homeowners who made the same mistake- real estate always increases in value. That some if the creditors will come out mostly whole leaving others to hold an empty bag is the American way, right? I'm sure the execs in charge of multi billion dollar losses have continued to cash their paychecks.


I don't know that a reorganization of loans will be enough. They may be selling a few properties before this is over.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

copperkid3 said:


> Water is the very lifeblood of a desert town. Without it, everything dies.
> The town's drying up and blowing away.....
> Let it go Nevada.....let it go.


I can't let it go. This is where my house is.


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## MoonShadows (Jan 11, 2014)

I have to agree with what Michael. I was thinking the exact same thing.



Michael W. Smith said:


> I wouldn't be blaming the economy on this problem.
> 
> When I was a young adult - some 30 years ago - the only casinos and gambling around were Las Vegas or Atlantic City.
> 
> ...


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Indian gaming- close enough for gamblers. Nevada made a bet on reinventing itself as a family vacation spot but the middle income families, who were the source of such income, have been both reduced and the remaining ones are still pinched.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonShadows said:


> I have to agree with what Michael. I was thinking the exact same thing.


I see this as an opportunity for Las Vegas properties to show what they're made of. I believe that properties downtown (i.e., old Vegas) should make a combined effort to regain the gambling reputation it once had, and draw in customers with offers of inexpensive vacations. That's how Las Vegas was built.

Most people didn't think of taking a vacation in the desert before Las Vegas, they thought of going to the beach or mountains. But the draw of inexpensive (sometimes free) rooms, food, drinks, and entertainment changed a lot of people's minds. Las Vegas has gotten away from that. Luxury hotels at the strip are asking $150/night on weekdays. They offer only gourmet food at premium prices, are stingy with comped drinks, and ask $150 for a show.

The result is that people visit Las Vegas and only see the Strip properties, then return home to tell their friends how expensive it is in Las Vegas. Under those conditions people are going to think carefully about visiting Las Vegas, and some won't come at all.

I see hundreds of millions being invested in new luxury properties (SLS & Cromwell, for example) with little chance of financial success in the current market. I would like to see an investment in returning to old Vegas conditions, which I believe has a much better chance of success. If visitors returned home with stories of $15 rooms, $5 buffets, lots of nickel slots & video poker machines, along with free drinks and entertainment I think Las Vegas would thrive.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

where I want to said:


> Indian gaming- close enough for gamblers. Nevada made a bet on reinventing itself as a family vacation spot but the middle income families, who were the source of such income, have been both reduced and the remaining ones are still pinched.


The family theme seems to be only a niche business, mostly cornered by Circus Circus. That theme was replaced with the Luxury resort business model when the Mirage was built. I believe we're seeing the failure of the luxury business model right now.


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## MoonShadows (Jan 11, 2014)

For your sake, and the sake of those that live/work in Vegas, I hope Vegas can reinvent itself, although in today's world, I highly doubt it. The scales have tipped for this country. This is just the beginning. Somewhere down the line, Vegas will just be seen as one of many that went down the tubes. People will be more interested in survival than gambling, family attractions, etc.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonShadows said:


> For your sake, and the sake of those that live/work in Vegas, I hope Vegas can reinvent itself, although in today's world, I highly doubt it. The scales have tipped for this country. This is just the beginning. Somewhere down the line, Vegas will just be seen as one of many that went down the tubes. People will be more interested in survival than gambling, family attractions, etc.


The recession will be over in 5 years. Conditions will improve.


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## MoonShadows (Jan 11, 2014)

Nevada said:


> The recession will be over in 5 years. Conditions will improve.


Well, I hope so, but in my book, we will look back on today as "the good old days". As I alluded to, I think this country has passed the point of no return. We'll never dig our way out of our financial problems with the budget deficit we have, we can no longer "control" other countries, especially our haters, as we used to be able to, and today most Americans are so apathetic and out of touch that their biggest concern in life is when is Apple coming out with a new iPhone.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

No surprise really. About 10 years ago I worked in Laughlin. I saw the end coming then.
Indian Casino's. Not many people willing to shell out the money to get to and from Nevada, pay the room rates, and gamble.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Pearl B said:


> No surprise really. About 10 years ago I worked in Laughlin. I saw the end coming then.
> Indian Casino's. Not many people willing to shell out the money to get to and from Nevada, pay the room rates, and gamble.


Interesting. I lived in Laughlin during 2002.


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## okiemom (May 12, 2002)

indian casinos are thriving here. There is no reason to travel when you can go to the local one and sleep in your own bed at night.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

okiemom said:


> indian casinos are thriving here. There is no reason to travel when you can go to the local one and sleep in your own bed at night.


Then there are some like me ,to tight to go donate these places money :sing:


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Even worse, the local Indian casinos are developing motels and amusement places. And I'm sure that the local tribes here are not the first to do it.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

okiemom said:


> indian casinos are thriving here. There is no reason to travel when you can go to the local one and sleep in your own bed at night.


Gambling conditions are notoriously terrible at native American casinos.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Gambling conditions are notoriously terrible at native American casinos.


Yes and a few professionals will note it. But the little old lady feeding the slots is not particularly motivated by math. It is a compulsion or delusion or amusement but not a plan.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

After working in a casino, I'm convinced gambling is an illness. It's a disease/addiction. Most gamblers have it. Not all, most. 
Like all ill people, they don't necessarily do what's best. They just gotta hit the nearest gambling facility.
Even in the best house it doesn't take long to figure out what you put in and what you get back are not even close to equal.
I've seen too many people put literally 8k into a machine, and go crazy bonkers when they win 1k. And actually think they won something. And do it again, and again.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Pearl B said:


> After working in a casino, I'm convinced gambling is an illness. It's a disease/addiction. Most gamblers have it. Not all, most.
> Like all ill people, they don't necessarily do what's best. They just gotta hit the nearest gambling facility.
> Even in the best house it doesn't take long to figure out what you put in and what you get back are not even close to equal.
> I've seen too many people put literally 8k into a machine, and go crazy bonkers when they win 1k. And actually think they won something. And do it again, and again.


You have to approach it like a business, keep your head, and don't let the suits intimidate you. You can't always beat the house, but there are practical ways to give yourself a fighting chance.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> You have to approach it like a business, keep your head, and don't let the suits intimidate you. You can't always beat the house, but there are practical ways to give yourself a fighting chance.


Yeah, find something real to use your money for. :yuck: And yeah been to Vegas a few times, tried the gambling bit, won more than I spent but it was pretty boring. But that's just me, did enjoy the shows though.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Nevada said:


> You have to approach it like a business, keep your head, and don't let the suits intimidate you. You can't always beat the house, but there are practical ways to give yourself a fighting chance.


There are some smart ones that approach it that way. They are few and far apart


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

LOL

This isn't even about gambling (or lack thereof).

This is about American business at it's finest. Take over other companies - on the cheap, even if they are loaded with debt.

Milk them for everything you can, while the "gettin" is good. If things turn sour, bail out with a bankruptcy. Cerberus capital did it with Chrysler.



> October 2, 2006 â _The Wall Street Journal_ reported that private-equity firms would buy Harrah's Entertainment for $15.05 billion in one of the largest leveraged buyouts in history. A number of private-equity firms, including Texas Pacific Group and Apollo Global Management were involved in the talks.





> January 2008 - *Harrah's assumes $20 billion in debt* when private equity firms Apollo Global Management and Texas Pacific Group acquired the company.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesars_Entertainment_Corporation#Company_goes_private


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Nevada said:


> I blame this mostly on poor planning and management. The luxury resort business model is way overbuilt in Las Vegas. Put in simple terms, Caesars was looking for $200/night hotel customers, but there aren't enough customers to go around. The old Las Vegas business model of bringing in customers with inexpensive rooms, food, drinks, and entertainment to make it up in the casino is long gone, at least on the Strip.
> 
> The recession does, of course, play a part in the supply of $200/night customers. But that started before Obama was president. The Caesars bankruptcy has been a long time in coming, and there are other properties in trouble. Keep your eye on Wynns, and also the Cosmopolitan. They're bleeding money too.


 Vegas should try to do as Tunica and Biloxi and try to get back to a version of the "Winner winner! Chicken dinner!" aspect popular with the RV retiree crowds.

My last trip to Tunica we paid about $40 a day for a camper and pick up slip with utility hook up in walking distance of the casino and spent four days nursing our entertainment bankroll. 

We didn't come home overall winners but we only lost about 2/3 of our bankroll and the cost of the camper slip and cost of the campground convenience store purchases.

All in all it was an enjoyable under $2k for two vacation outing in winner winner chicken dinner range.

The RV community atmosphere of the campground was nice after time spent in the casino and the cable TV that was part of the slip package made relaxing in our camper home special.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Shrek said:


> Vegas should try to do as Tunica and Biloxi and try to get back to a version of the "Winner winner! Chicken dinner!" aspect popular with the RV retiree crowds.


The business model in Las Vegas has changed. They seem to be attracting the 20s & 30s crowd for clubbing, gourmet food, and high end entertainment. Honestly, there's less and less for me at the Strip all the time.

I stay and gamble mostly downtown now. Gambling conditions are a lot better, and rooms & food are a lot less expensive.

But I agree. I think Las Vegas needs to change their business model.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Yeah, find something real to use your money for. :yuck: And yeah been to Vegas a few times, tried the gambling bit, won more than I spent but it was pretty boring. But that's just me, did enjoy the shows though.


I lot of the joy in gambling is getting the upper hand on the same casinos that took you on previous visits. I don't know what kind of gambling you did but some games are more interesting than others. But that doesn't matter to me because I look at gambling as purely business. You don't walk out of a business meeting because it's boring, and you don't walk away from a table when you're gambling on a sure thing.

The way to look at gambling is that there is money constantly changing hands all over Las Vegas casino properties, a lot of money. There are occasions where the casino has a hole in it's pocket, and it's your job to get a piece of it. It's only a matter of time until the casino realizes where the money is leaking from, so you have to take advantage while you can.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Mainly Texas hold'em and black Jack. Pretty much doubled my money. Guess since we were looking for entertainment we pretty much moved on to the shows and food LOL. But if it was considered income that would be different.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

I just saw on the evening news that Caesars will be laying off 200 workers just in Las Vegas -- immediately. They don't know how many might be laid off before this is over.

Sheesh!


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## DAVID In Wisconsin (Dec 3, 2002)

It's happening all over. Tunica has closed a number of casinos over the past 3 years and even Biloxi has lost 1 with a few others being sold.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> Caesars Entertainment (formerly Harrah's) has announced plans for bankruptcy in January, in an attempt to bring their approximately $23 billion debt load under control. The bankruptcy deal reached with creditor banks will effectively refinance approximately $18 billion of that debt.
> 
> http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/el...s-said-be-lining-creditors-january-bankruptc/
> 
> ...



Uuuuummmmmmmmmm.................:facepalm:





Nevada said:


> Economic indicators look good heading into Tuesday's election.
> 
> Stock Market - Dow closed at record high Friday
> GDP - up 3.5%
> ...





Nevada said:


> Then you might find this to be interesting.
> 
> _Consumer Confidence Bounces Back_
> http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Conference-Board-Consumer-Confidence-Index.php




Here's your sign.................




Oggie said:


> Thanks, Obama.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

I wonder how this will be on foul mouthed Chef Gordon Ramsey


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## tlrnnp67 (Nov 5, 2006)

I'm typing this from the Paris casino.

You can have it. I am just here for a conference (paid for by employer). It's been > 10 years since I've been here, so the difference is probably related to that, but I've been here 2.5 days, and I'm ready to go home! 

The room is nice and all, but the food prices are astronomical! I got a cheeseburger and fries yesterday with a chicken salad to go for later to cover my meals for the day, and it was $55.00 not including tip. I looked online, and the buffets are $45 to $50, and I can't eat much at a time. A while ago, I decided to run to the Walgreens down the street to pick up some snacks and such so I wouldn't have to deal with the high prices here, and got acosted by at least 50 people to see shows or prostitutes or whatever, and felt like a salmon swimming upstream because of the crowd. 

I'm stuck here until Wednesday and am not a happy camper!


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

tlrnnp67 said:


> I'm typing this from the Paris casino.
> 
> You can have it. I am just here for a conference (paid for by employer). It's been > 10 years since I've been here, so the difference is probably related to that, but I've been here 2.5 days, and I'm ready to go home!
> 
> ...


You need to visit Ellis Island. I used to eat there all the time when I was living near the strip. It's on Koval directly behind the Paris (look for the Super 8 hotel sign, it's in the north end of that property). They have really great food at fair prices. (Hint: Their burger is exceptional!) If you're really hungry get the chicken Parmesan. The main restaurant is open 24/7 and is a locals favorite, with pretty fair gambling conditions in the casino.

There is also a BBQ restaurant in Ellis Island that's open after 4 pm I think. Really good BBQ chicken & ribs. Thursday (today) is 2for1 at Metro Pizza night at Ellis Island, no coupon necessary, where you can get entire pizzas or by the slice 2for1. Sunday is 2for1 but only for entire pizzas. Metro Pizza is pretty good if you like NY style pizza.

If you have a car you might drive over near the Rio (near Valley View & Twain) to buy a Las Vegas Advisor coupon book for $35 from Huntington Press (3665 Procyon St, Las Vegas, NV). There are a few good coupons for the Strip area.

Mirage Buffet 2for1
Planet Hollywood Buffet $10 off Per Person (up to 2 persons)
Rio Buffet 2for1
Riviera 2for1 Entree
Mandalay Bay 2for1 Entree
TI 2for1 Entree
Tropicana 50% off Entree
Paris 2-For-1 Burger in Le Burger Brasserie

There are also tons of coupons for off-Strip properties and downtown. I don't know if you'll be there long enough to make use of the $35, but you should. Note that most coupons aren't good on weekends.

If you're really hungry then try the restaurant (Bougainvillea) at Silver Sevens, on Flamingo & Paradise. Avoid their buffet for anything but breakfast. Huge portions and fair prices at Bougainvillea. It's within walking distance.

I could go on. If you want more specific advice then PM me and we'll talk on the phone. But you really need to go to Ellis Island.

Oh, Tuscany has good food for cheap also. It's also pretty close to Paris.

By the way, as a ChemE I did a project in the Texas Panhandle once. It was at a Hoechst Celanese chemical plant in Pampa. Someone told me it was gone now.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

I remember the days of the $2.99 buffets in Vegas...fun times....


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

jtbrandt said:


> I remember the days of the $2.99 buffets in Vegas...fun times....


The first Las Vegas buffet I had was $3.50 in 1975 at the Fremont hotel. Just a basic meat & potatoes buffet, but I really liked it.

Las Vegas had better regain its memory about the old Vegas business model soon, or they risk losing it all.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> The first Las Vegas buffet I had was $3.50 in 1975 at the Fremont hotel. Just a basic meat & potatoes buffet, but I really liked it.
> 
> Las Vegas had better regain its memory about the old Vegas business model soon, or they risk losing it all.


LOL

The dinner buffet at the SLS was $48.00.

Everything is so expensive in Vegas, nobody has any money left to gamble.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Not interested in paying the prices for rooms on the strip and the slots seem looser to me off-strip. 
The middle class can no longer afford the business model of the Strip hotels.
besides I have 2 Indian Casino's within 1.25 hours of Dallas and both bring in entertainers - maybe not the 'names' Vegas has, but good entertainers nevertheless.

Will we still go to Vega's? yeah, but as always we'll stay off strip and gamble off strip and see a show or two.

I do have an idea to save a couple of the casino's however -- go 100% non-smoking. I'd spend all my time there.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mnn2501 said:


> Not interested in paying the prices for rooms on the strip and the slots seem looser to me off-strip.


That's true for video poker and table games, but there no way to tell for slots. I don't consider slots gambling, since they lack certain essential ingredients of gambling. With slots you don't know the odds, the variance, or even the likelihood of getting a jackpot. You just play the machine and hope something good happens. That's not gambling. The best advice I can give to Las Vegas visitors is to stay clear of all slots, and don't play any other game unless you understand it.

Stay, eat and play either downtown, on the Boulder Strip, or at a local property. Learn where to find premium coupons (ACG or LVA) and use them. Finally, come during the week because hotel rates double and restaurant lines get long on weekends.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

plowjockey said:


> LOL
> 
> The dinner buffet at the SLS was $48.00.
> 
> Everything is so expensive in Vegas, nobody has any money left to gamble.


SLS is a flawed concept. They took a discount property (The Sahara) that failed for lack of foot traffic, then gutted it and turned it into a high priced resort. The problem with that is 1) there are already too many luxury properties in town, and 2) turning it into a luxury property doesn't address the foot traffic problem.

SLS will find itself in financial trouble within a year.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> SLS is a flawed concept. They took a discount property (The Sahara) that failed for lack of foot traffic, then gutted it and turned it into a high priced resort. The problem with that is 1) there are already too many luxury properties in town, and 2) turning it into a luxury property doesn't address the foot traffic problem.
> 
> SLS will find itself in financial trouble within a year.


Luxury? The SLS was very nice (and new) Maybe i don't know hat luxury is, LOL.

the old standby Caesars Palace dinner buffet is $60 and we shelled out $300 to spend the afternoon at the Venus pool club. The ancient but good jubilee show at Ballys is still $65+ even though we got free passes.

Short cab ride to airport $25

Everything was way too expensive at least where we went along the strip.

No wonder people are gambling less.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Nevada said:


> That's true for video poker and table games, but there no way to tell for slots. I don't consider slots gambling, since they lack certain essential ingredients of gambling. With slots you don't know the odds, the variance, or even the likelihood of getting a jackpot. You just play the machine and hope something good happens. That's not gambling.


I disagree- I love slots and usually win at them, there are strategies for playing them.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mnn2501 said:


> I disagree- I love slots and usually win at them, there are strategies for playing them.


I'm not aware of any effective strategy for slots. Care to elaborate?


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Maybe this will help Vegas 
Duck Dynasty The MUSICAL. 
It will be called "The Duck Commander Family Musical"
It will be based on their book.

The Duck Commander Family: How Faith, Family and Ducks Built a Dynasty, by Willie and Korie Robertson.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

Nevada said:


> You have to approach it like a business, keep your head, and don't let the suits intimidate you. You can't always beat the house, but there are practical ways to give yourself a fighting chance.



But if you beat the house, the house goes out of business, and then where do you gamble?

That's what I don't get. Most gamblers I know brag about how much they win, and then I ask them if the casinos are giving away all that money, how do they cover their expenses?

Kind of like our government, I guess. Free money everywhere.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

DJ in WA said:


> But if you beat the house, the house goes out of business, and then where do you gamble?
> 
> That's what I don't get. Most gamblers I know brag about how much they win, and then I ask them if the casinos are giving away all that money, how do they cover their expenses?


Very few people approach gambling that way. Most visitors play slots, which offer no realistic chance of winning. Some who try don't understand statistical properties, like Risk of Ruin and variance, so they are too under-capitalized to have a fighting chance of winning.

Finally, nobody listens to me anyway. They don't play in the right places, don't play the right games, and don't play at the right times.

Trust me, of the times I've beat the house I was never a threat to the casino's bottom line going negative.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

> Most gamblers I know brag about how much they win


Most of those people are full of horse crap. They win occasionally but lose over the long term. The casinos love winners because they boost the energy/optimism in the room and get everybody else to lose more. The house always wins...even when it doesn't.

I don't much care for gambling. I was pretty good at blackjack back in my younger days. I can count cards, but what people don't realize about that is it's not like the movies...it takes a LONG time to win big counting cards. You don't sit down for 15 minutes and hit it big. It's an all day game. And then they kick you out because they know you're counting. Back when the mafia was running Vegas they might do worse than kick you out.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

jtbrandt said:


> Most of those people are full of horse crap. They win occasionally but lose over the long term.


My next door neighbor told me that she always wins at slots, and has never gone to a casino without winning. One day we went to Wynns to eat (comp buffets) and I saw her gamble. Both she and her daughter lost. When I pointed that out she said, "Yes, but we won some of the spins, so we still won."





jtbrandt said:


> The house always wins...even when it doesn't.


As the original post said, Caesars Entertainment is bleeding cash at a rate of $300 million per month. That's not winning. I suspect that most Strip properties are losing money right now.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Nevada said:


> As the original post said, Caesars Entertainment is bleeding cash at a rate of $300 million per month. That's not winning. I suspect that most Strip properties are losing money right now.


But is that the casino losing money, or the hotel? I bet the hotel is eating all the profits from the casino, and then some.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

jtbrandt said:


> But is that the casino losing money, or the hotel? I bet the hotel is eating all the profits from the casino, and then some.


Well, yeah. I'm sure the casinos themselves show a profit, but the hotel is supposed to be a promotional tool for the casino. The luxury property business model is failing in Las Vegas. It's not like I didn't see this coming.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Then there's also all their other properties...I wonder how much of the loss is in Vegas and how much is other places. Vegas was pretty great in the late 60s and early 70s. It's still a cool place, but I don't spend much time in the casinos.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

jtbrandt said:


> Then there's also all their other properties...I wonder how much of the loss is in Vegas and how much is other places. Vegas was pretty great in the late 60s and early 70s. It's still a cool place, but I don't spend much time in the casinos.


I suspect that the local casinos and downtown resort area are doing ok. Most of those properties paid for themselves a long time ago. It's the properties with multi-billion dollar mortgages that are in trouble.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Nevada said:


> I suspect that the local casinos and downtown resort area are doing ok. Most of those properties paid for themselves a long time ago. It's the properties with multi-billion dollar mortgages that are in trouble.


It would surprise me that there are any large casinos allowed to be mortage debt free. Money is regularly taken out of most large businesses by selling capital and creating debt to more or different owners and not so much with an actual taxable profit unless forced to do so by tax rules or other considerations. It's so much cheaper for tax reasons.

Works wonderfully in good times but can be a trap for the business if things don't go perfectly. Not for the owners so much who know the train is coming down the track but for ancillary people.

No- borrowing cheap money is the tool of choice for increasing that 'wealth gap' in the artifical world created by the Fed.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Nevada said:


> I suspect that the local casinos and downtown resort area are doing ok. Most of those properties paid for themselves a long time ago. It's the properties with multi-billion dollar mortgages that are in trouble.


Do you see it turning around any time soon, or do you expect it to get much worse there? It might actually be beneficial to you by lowering the cost of living there, but probably would increase crime somewhat also.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

jtbrandt said:


> Do you see it turning around any time soon, or do you expect it to get much worse there? It might actually be beneficial to you by lowering the cost of living there, but probably would increase crime somewhat also.


We've got another 4 or 5 years of recession. It will get worse before it gets better.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

I'm talking about Vegas specifically, not the economy in general. You said the problems in Vegas (at least some of them) are a result of a bad business model. An end to a recession won't fix a bad business model.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

jtbrandt said:


> I'm talking about Vegas specifically, not the economy in general. You said the problems in Vegas (at least some of them) are a result of a bad business model. An end to a recession won't fix a bad business model.


Las Vegas is very sensitive to the recession. Until the recession even stupid projects were successful in Las Vegas. Las Vegas isn't going to recover until the rest of the country recovers, since Las Vegas relies on discretionary vacation money to thrive.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

Nevada, I've never been to Vegas, but I've never seen where it's promoted as a family fun vacation spot. Perhaps you know more since you live there.

I will say the first casino near me that opened up is an Indian casino in Salamanca, NY. I started going to that casino and at first was receiving $5.00 or $10.00 in Free slot play every month.

I then started to receive a $25.00 Free Play coupon to use at a table game. None of my money required - put down the coupon and if you won, you got $25.00, if you lost, they took the coupon away.

I then started to receive Match Play coupons. I believe they were $10.00 where I had to put down $10.00 of my own money. If i won, I would have $30.00 to pick up, if i lost I was out $10.00.

I've now gotten to where the only thing they give me is $5.00 in food comps. The free play is gone, and the match play is gone (at least for me, but I see other people with the coupons). Apparently I wasn't their kind of gambler.

I've very conservative and the most I'm going to lose is $100.00 - $200.00. At first the casino had a smaller hotel and would offer free (or cheap rooms). They then added on almost doubling their hotel. The free and cheap rooms are gone now too. 

What is my opinion on why the "comps" have gotten less? There are now 3 casinos in PA that I can go to. I think those people in PA that used to go to New York have quit. It's not because they are raking in the money and their hotel rooms are filled.

But I'll tell you, I've been going to the other 3 casinos more than I go to New York. Every month I get coupons from all 3 casinos - all Match Play coupons but at least they give me something.

And before you think I have a problem - I go to the casino once or twice a month. I might be there for 8 hours and if I'm having a bad day, I'll lose $200.00 at the MOST. For me, gambling is entertainment - and for the record, I usually don't play slots - I play table games.

Do I win the majority of the time? No. There have been a few wins. But I also realize that EVERY SINGLE game in the casino - the house has the edge.

The economy has nothing to do with the casino traffic from what I can tell. On the once a month or once every two month trip I make, you start to notice the same people always there. People who look like they shouldn't be gambling.

Sorry Nevada, but I don't see Las Vegas ever coming back. They used to about the only game in town. Now, there are casinos ALL over the U.S. Why fly out to Vegas when I can drive to a casino within 2 hours and be back home? No air fare, no hotel costs.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

I think Vegas offers more in the way of debauchery (probably more of a marketing thing than real) than anywhere else in the country, so people will still continue to go there even if not for the purpose of gambling. Whether it will be enough to sustain the city is anyone's guess.


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## DAVID In Wisconsin (Dec 3, 2002)

jtbrandt said:


> I think Vegas offers more in the way of debauchery (probably more of a marketing thing than real) than anywhere else in the country, so people will still continue to go there even if not for the purpose of gambling. Whether it will be enough to sustain the city is anyone's guess.


Luckily I have been able to find debauchery most places I go.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

DAVID In Wisconsin said:


> Luckily I have been able to find debauchery most places I go.


Yeah, Vegas just has better marketing than most places. I think they started trying to sell it as a family destination and that may have been a mistake, even though there are a lot of good family type things to do in the area. They should stick with the "Sin City" theme to pull in "bros" having bachelor party weekends and middle aged guys having mid-life crises.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

jtbrandt said:


> Yeah, Vegas just has better marketing than most places. I think they started trying to sell it as a family destination and that may have been a mistake, even though there are a lot of good family type things to do in the area. They should stick with the "Sin City" theme to pull in "bros" having bachelor party weekends and middle aged guys having mid-life crises.


The family thing worked well (still does) for Circus Circus. Other resorts like Treasure Island tried to follow, but there wasn't enough business to go around. The bad boy theme seems to work much better.

The same mistake was made with the luxury hotel business model. Admittedly it went a lot farther than the family model, with Mirage, Bellagio, & Venetian being built, and even Caesars converting to luxury. If the truth be known, that was too many right there. Then Paris & Planet Hollywood joined the act. Finally they built Wynns, Encore, Palazzo, Aria, Vadara, and Cosmopolitan. Las Vegas is WAY overbuilt for the luxury hotel clientele, but they aren't making business adjustments -- even in the face of bankruptcy.

Las Vegas has never been good at making business decisions. You might think so by all of the development, but more projects fail than visitors know. Las Vegas is good at excess, but that doesn't always pay.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

The basic rule of Casinos is that any money you take in the front door belongs to them!


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