# Kilo the Karakachan



## Moboiku

Several years ago when I started my search for the LGD that would be the best fit for our homestead, I stumbled upon a thread on this forum in which the writer had recently picked up her Karakachan puppy. Following her thread as she navigated puppyhood and adolescence with her first LGD was invaluable to me.

Seven weeks ago I made a LONG round-trip to pick up my own Karakachan puppy, and I decided to start my own thread, as an online diary of sorts, detailing his progress for myself, because I know how fast they grow and how quickly I might forget the stages we pass through. If it helps someone else, as that other thread helped me, all the better :icecream:

I am not new to dogs but this is my first LGD so I am learning right along with him. Please feel free to comment, but be kind. Constructive criticism is welcome!

First, an introduction to our homestead. We have 10 acres, of which 7 are fenced for sheep and goats. The front 3 acres are also fenced and the animals are let out to graze there occasionally. In addition we have dairy cows, chickens and turkeys. The cows live next door, the poultry free-range the whole property.

We have 3 other dogs. Sammie is a black lab/border collie cross, about 40 pounds. Tequila is a 45-pound mutt - probably some kind of cattle dog mix. And Dizzy is a cairn terrier. Dizzy is the only house dog, though he prefers to be outside with the other dogs during the day. Sammie and Tequila have free range of the front 3 acres and sleep in a doghouse near the chicken coop at night. Their presence has kept the poultry safe from predators for the past 3-Â½ years.

We've had the sheep and goats for 3 years. Initially we hoped that good fencing would keep them safe - and for the first two years it did. However earlier this year we woke to find one 5-week-old lamb missing and his twin brother injured. The latter died 5 days later. It wasn't hard to determine the culprit - a spot along the fence line that had been dug out. Coyote prints scattered the area.

After the loss of our lambs, I stepped up my efforts to find my Karakachan. Because they have only been imported to the US within the past decade, they are still rather rare and finding one wasnât easy. Eventually I learned of a litter in West Virginia. I committed to the breeder while still having no idea how I would get the pup the 2000 miles from WV to my home :bowtie: As the time drew nearer to bring him home, I learned that one of his littermates would be picked up and driven to his new home. I contacted that person, who agreed to also pick up my puppy. I still had to drive 7 hours to get him from her - but that was better than the 16-hour trip it would have been to pick him up directly.

So, one day in October I set out early to drive the 7 hours and, with Kilo crying in the back of the car, then drove the 7 hours back home. And so the adventure began.


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## Moboiku

I also want to record Kilo's maturation via photos. I'm not good at taking a camera or my phone outside with me but hopefully the need to update photos here as he grows will help me to remember to take one or the other with me from time to time. 

Here are a couple of photos of Kilo. The first one is at 5 weeks old when he was still with the breeders. The next is his first day at our homestead.


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## Moboiku

As I write, we've just had a bit of excitement around here. I looked out the window to see the sheep running in a tight group, from the far end of the pasture, all the way up to the front. This isn't unheard of - sometimes they just run. And, when they reached the front and immediately went to get a drink from the water tank, I thought it was only thirst that had driven them in. Then I noticed movement. About halfway along our fence line - but on our neighbor's side of the fence - was a coyote. As I watched, it trotted up the fence, looking for a place to dig under, no doubt. By the time I had my boots on, it had disappeared from view. The four dogs and I did a pasture walk anyway, just to be sure it knows we're watching, if it is still around. This is of course the whole reason we got Kilo but he is still a baby - it will be awhile yet before we'll be able to rely on him to protect them


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## LittleMrsAdams

That is one adorable pup! Sorry about your lambs. I'm looking forward to seeing Kilo grow up!


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## motdaugrnds

Yeah! ! I'm so glad you've started a thread about kilo and your adventures with him. It will be fun to learn how another deals with specifics as a Karakachan grows. And I do hope you remember the pics.  ..... He does so look like Valentina did at that young age.....


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## aart

You _better_ keep up on the pics ;-)
Looking forward to following along!

Where are you located?


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## Moboiku

It will take me a few posts - and pictures! - to get caught up. I'll start with accommodating Kilo. I wanted him to be close to the sheep and goats but as we have no other LGD yet, I knew I couldn't put a puppy out there and expect him to defend them. Also, I've found that mother sheep can be quite aggressive in defense of their newborns and will charge, ram and pin a dog to a fence for daring to come close. I didn't want Kilo to experience that early on and wind up afraid of them. 

Around the same time we committed to get Kilo, we realized we needed to renovate our barn. The shelter the animals have used the past few years is old and on the low side of the property. This spring it flooded. We figured we either had to find a way to divert water around it or move them to the high side of the property. At the high side there was an existing pole barn so we decided to enclose it and turn it into a "real" barn. In doing so, we planned an area for Kilo to sleep so he could get to know his charges, yet be safe from them and they from him (during the playful adolescent phase).

So - using livestock panels - we created a dog run in the middle of the animal area of the new barn. A panel on the bottom prevents him digging out, side panels have small openings so he can't crawl out, and another panel across the top prevents him climbing out. Panels cut to fit the ends complete the "cube". One is affixed, the other hinged to let him in and out. The whole structure is smack dab in the middle of the animals - the goats sleep on one side of him and the sheep on the other. As you can see from the photos below, we actually hung the sheep and goat feeders on the sides of the dog run. Initially I gave him a bed of hay, believing that all LGDs like to "rough it". However I noticed how much he enjoyed sleeping on a real dog bed in the garage during the day, and that he hadn't chewed on it. Eventually I bought him his own dog bed to have in his dog run and he seems to have appreciated that very much - and shows it by also not chewing on it.


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## Moboiku

Without a dog in it for reference, it is difficult to appreciate the dimensions, but considering it is constructed of livestock panels....it is 16' long and 50" high and wide.

Initially I would have to say he was not enthused about going in there at night. After all, he had to leave his three other doggie companions and go and sleep by himself. Several times I carried him there and left him crying. Then I hit on the idea of giving him a little of our fresh, raw, Jersey milk each day, and when I found how much he loved that, it became the "incentive" to go into his dog run at night. Once he realized that his reward for going in voluntarily was milk, his attitude changed. Now he practically skips down to the barn with me at dusk, in anticipation of getting his milk. He runs in, drinks his milk, and no longer cries when I leave.


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## motdaugrnds

I love that set up Moboiku. It's being set in the middle with those feeder bins to invite the goats and sheep over is such a creative idea. I'm wondering about the floor and hope Kilo does not stumble in there. Are you finding it works well with no possible damage to his little legs? Oh do get us a pic of his being in there....


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## Moboiku

I wil try...the flash on my phone isn't very good and he only goes in at dusk and comes out in the morning but I'll see if I can convince him to go in for a photo shoot during the day  I don't think there is any issue with stumbling as it is just wire directly on the ground. I go in each night to pour the milk into his bowl and haven't had any issues with stumbling myself, nor noticed him having any trouble walking. He is probably able to fit his feet in the spaces between wires but even if he were to walk on the wire, it is only about Â¼" higher than the spaces between so doesn't seem to cause him any difficulty.


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## Maura

That is a nice big kennel. It wouldn&#8217;t hurt to leave one of the other dogs in there with him, though. And you are training him in in basics, right?

Another thought, thought maybe unnecessary, I just bought a light for my dog&#8217;s collar so I can see him in the dark. Kiko&#8217;s coloring makes him camouflaged at night.


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## Moboiku

That is a great idea about the light on the collar - I can just picture looking out at night and seeing a twinkling light out there - and nothing else 

I did actually consider leaving another dog with him in the kennel but didn't/couldn't for a couple of reasons. My husband would be horrified to hear me say the words "I couldn't spare a dog". He can't get over the fact we now have 4 dogs (and although I'm trying to warn him that it will be 5 in a year or two as Kilo will need a partner, I think those "hints" are, so far, going over his head. I figure I will wait to have that more serious conversation until closer to the time.) So I know it sounds silly to say that we have 3 other dogs and I can't spare one to sleep with Kilo but the reality is that for 3+ years now, Sammie and Tequila have slept with the chickens and their presence has been hugely successful in that we haven't lost any birds to predators. At first I thought it was merely their presence there that kept predators away but in the past few months, I've been woken by Sammie barking several times. Since she hardly ever barks, when she does, I shuffle sleepily out to find out what's up and every time she has had a would-be predator cornered - a skunk or an opossum. So I am reluctant to change something that is working. While it is always Sammie who has had the critter cornered, I think they work together very well and don't want to split them up. And, Dizzy is my only house dog and takes his role as my constant companion very seriously. I actually did have him sleep with Kilo the first two nights he was here as I felt that having just left his mother and siblings, he needed the company of another dog to ease the transition. 

However, the reason I decided not to make Dizzy sleeping with him permanent, is that I really want to encourage Kilo to rely on the sheep and goats as his companions. In my experience, when animals of the same species are together, they bond to one another, but in the absence of another of their species, they are more likely to bond with an animal of another species. Orphaned puppies, kittens raccoons, deer - and many others - have formed relationships with other species that would never have happened if their situation had allowed them to remain with their own. So - following that train of thought, I felt that if Kilo had another dog for company, he would have no reason to seek a relationship with the sheep and goats but if they are all he has.....that bond will more likely develop.

Right or wrong? I dunno - I'm feeling my way here. But after an initial adjustment period, Kilo now seems very happy to go to bed at night and doesn't seem unhappy when I let him out in the morning so I think he has adjusted to the arrangement.

As for obedience training, I'm hanging my head in shame here. I assured the breeder I intended to do basic obedience with him but confess it just hasn't happened....yet. Well, not official lessons at least. That is not to say he hasn't been learning a lot. He knows "come" and now recalls very well. And he has learned not to jump on people. So his manners are coming along nicely. 

One of the reasons I had planned to do basic obedience was with the thought in mind that at some point I'll need to load him in the car and take him somewhere - most likely the vet. And it will be easier if he has some basics down. With that in mind, I take him a short trip in the car about once a week. At first he HATED the car and I had to lift him in and listen to him cry all the way there and back. Then one day I was going somewhere I hadn't intended to take him but on opening the car door, he crawled in....voluntarily. I watched, slack jawed. I decided I couldn't not take him under the circumstances so I let him go with me and he had a fabulous time, then again, voluntarily got back in the car when it was time to come home. Since then, no more lifting him in and out and no more crying. So I am less worried about vet visits, knowing he will now get in and out by himself.

But yes - I do need to get busy with some formal lessons - thank you for the reminder


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## BackfourtyMI.

Your pup is adorable! We also have Karakachans & am getting ready for our 2nd litter to be born the end of the month.
They are an amazing breed & your going to be amazed watching him grow & just seeing the instincts the breed has to naturally protect it's livestock.

The light is a good idea now but when he's old enough to actually protect his flock I think a light would also let the predators know where he is. Just my opinion but it might be better at that time to leave no light on him.


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## aart

Great stuff Moboiku!!
This is going to be a great thread!
Vicarious joy, probably (never say never) no more dogs for me.

Those lights for the collars, someone gave me one of the pendant types that hangs off the tag/leash ring. Pretty cool, like a head light for dogs.
But...I found the pendant was only visible when dog was facing me,
the kind with light tube that goes all around the collar would be better,
_and_ the batteries ran out pretty darn quick even when I only turned it on when my house dog was outside in the dark, which isn't much time. It takes 2 $5 disc batteries, so not happening here as it's just a novelty. 
I also wondered if it effects their night vision at all<shrugs>


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## motdaugrnds

Hey Backfourty,MI nice to hear your karakachans are having another litter. I must add ANYONE GETTING ONE OF YOUR PUPS WILL BE GETTING A GREAT LGD!

Moboiku I definately second the light idea NOT being a good one for an LGD who will be staying in the pasture all the time. And hey, don't forget pics....


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## Moboiku

Good points on the lights....great discussion.

To be honest, none of my dogs wears a collar. I know that is controversial but stems from two things. First is that my husband's family had a cairn terrier when he was a child and the poor dog hung herself trying to climb through a fence. The collar got caught in the fence and strangled her and it was the kids who found her. Decades later they still talk about it, so it was obviously a very traumatic event.

However even with that, until two years ago, my dogs did wear collars full-time. However one morning I opened my news to read a story of two dogs who had been playing out in their backyard while the owners were away at work. Evidently one dog got its teeth caught in the collar of the other and not only strangled the dog wearing the collar, but in the chaos and panic that ensued, the dog who was caught also died. At the end of the story, there were links to numerous other cases of dogs dying after their collars got caught up in play or in fencing. I went out, took my dog's collars off and have never put them back on.

A year ago I got Dizzy and he's never worn one. Now Kilo is growing up without one as well. All are micro-chipped so in the event they got lost I could still be contacted. But to be honest, I have never missed the collars as the dogs all respond well to my voice.


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## Moboiku

Okay, to the next Kilo update.....I'm trying to organize my thoughts as I get you caught up on his progress.

Now is perhaps the best time to describe the somewhat unique situation in which he lives. A year ago my neighbor approached me with a proposition that I go in halves with her on some Jersey cows. Thus, a partnership was born which has worked enormously well. Her property is fenced for large animals so the cows live there but she and I share the work, expenses and milking. It has become a beautiful friendship - it turns out we work marvelously together - and the bonus is that we can have dairy animals without being as tied down as we would be without the partnership. I can travel knowing she will take care of them while I'm gone - and vice versa.

In fact, it works so well that we expanded the partnership a few months later, obtaining some dairy goats. Since my property is fenced for small livestock, the goats live at my place. Thus, she and I go back and forth to one another's houses daily and our dogs (she has two) accompany us.

However when contemplating getting Kilo, I didn't know how it was going to work. Ideally I would want an LGD to protect the sheep from any stray dogs but I was concerned that by telling him "some" dogs are okay (the neighbor's), he might not know to differentiate and protect against other dogs.

That has worked itself out nicely as, though Kilo sleeps with the stock at night, he currently spends days around the house with my other dogs. That means he goes back and forth to milk with me just as the other dogs do, and has therefore become part of a doggy 6-pack. Rather than introduce the idea that "strange" dogs are allowed at our house, we have taught him that his pack includes her two dogs and therefore they are okay. However I believe that if a dog he doesn't know tries to approach, he will know that is not okay.

Its nice when things like that just fall into place 

And of course, Kilo also benefits by getting a little fresh raw Jersey milk each day. Consequently he is growing like crazy. True to my word, I'll attach some photos to this post that have been taken in the past few weeks. He is not unattended with the sheep and goats by day, but I do try to have him spend a significant amount of time with them each day - with me. If I don't have chores to do in the pasture, I take a book out there and sit with him to allow him to observe and grow accustomed to their movements. So these pics were taken during some of these visits.


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## Maura

Sounds like your plan is working well.

If you are working on the recall and, not jumping, and staying with you, then I call that obedience training. Let him sit in the car with a chew toy for twenty minutes a day. After a week of that, take him for a ride down the driveway, turn around and come back. You can quickly acclimate him to riding in the car. Then, take him to the vet and just sit in the reception area for a few minutes, then go home.

He will need to respect the leash and learn to stay within a couple of feet of you without pulling, but I&#8217;m sure you can work up to that. He needs to meet lots of people. He doesn&#8217;t need to play with them, but you don&#8217;t want him to be afraid of new humans. He will still react to people coming on the property, but you can easily loose control of him if he isn&#8217;t worked around people who are not family.


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## Moboiku

Backfourty said:


> Your pup is adorable! We also have Karakachans & am getting ready for our 2nd litter to be born the end of the month.


Oh my - that IS exciting news! You will have to update us when they are born - I can't wait to hear the news :icecream:


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## Moboiku

Since I do not have another LGD for Kilo to partner with - or to train him - we are having to feel our way, learning this together. I didn't want to leave him with the sheep and goats full-time when he's only a baby so the compromise is that he sleeps with them but by day he is up around the house with the other three dogs. Although they are not LGDs, they have valuable lessons to teach him.

Dizzy, my little cairn terrier, taught him to be gentle. Dizzy is accustomed to his play-mates being large breed dogs so he can take some rough and tumble. But Kilo played TOO roughly at first. And, I think Dizzy had some sense that Kilo is only a baby and will get bigger, so needs to be put in his place while he is still small enough to listen, so I watched as several times Dizzy got MAD at him. I had never seen him react that way to another dog before, but watched as Kilo pounced and rolled him and Dizzy got up snarling and really letting Kilo know how unappreciated that was. Kilo is a fast learner. Dizzy only had to discipline him a few times before he learned to modulate his roughness. To me it still looks like "rough and tumble" play but Dizzy no longer gets mad at him and I suspect the reason is that Kilo learned to have a "soft mouth" so it doesn't hurt to play with him any more. Certainly, when Kilo "mouths" my hand, it is super gentle - he doesn't ever use those sharp little puppy teeth on me. 

Tequila is teaching him about guarding in her own way. Tequila is our self-designated lookout. Any strange sound or sight is alerted to. That pesky mail-lady, the suspicious looking UPS guy, the kids' friends......are all announced. In between she doesn't bark at all. From the beginning, when he heard Tequila barking, Kilo would run to her to see what was up and sit next to her, joining her with his surprisingly deep bark for such a young pup (his voice has only become more grown-up in the weeks since his arrival). So Kilo is learning that it isn't necessary to bark all the time but that an alert when something is actually happening is welcomed.

However I wanted to find a way to transition him to spending more time out in the pasture with the sheep and goats. A couple of weeks ago I tried something that has become our new morning routine. Instead of letting Sammie and Tequila out of the chicken yard and Kilo out of his run and leaving them up front, I now let everyone out in the morning but leave them all - even Dizzy - in the pasture for a few hours. If he were alone, I think Kilo would pine for the others and look for ways to join them - and I didn't want to teach him to be an escape artist. But by leaving the other three with him, he is happy to stay in the pasture and by doing that, he is becoming familiar with the pasture and becoming comfortable with spending time there.

I enjoy sipping on a cup of coffee and watching from the kitchen window. Kilo will play - with Dizzy or Sammie or both - but eventually the play will wind down and Kilo will often go off by himself on a little explore. I love watching him take in his surroundings as I know he is learning what is normal and what belongs so that when he encounters something that doesn't one day - he will know. It is also fascinating to note that by instinct, his explore is always in the direction of where the sheep are grazing. I doubt even he realizes that - he just does it. 

Of course, he is a baby so his solo explorations are short and he will soon rejoin the dogs for another play session. But - when they all finally get tired and slow down to rest, I can't help noticing that Tequila, Sammie and Dizzy lie or sit, positioning themselves so that they can watch the back door of the house for me to come out. Kilo will lie with his back to the house, looking in the direction of the sheep.


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## motdaugrnds

Love the way you're letting your other 3 dogs help Kilo learn. Great instinctis, Moboiku. Yes, Kilo's attention seems to automatically be toward the sheep. That is so amazing yet not at all unexpected.


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## Moboiku

My poultry free-range around the property so it is important to me that all dogs leave them alone. Having read a number of accounts of LGDs killing chickens who jump the fence into their pasture, I knew I'd have to keep an eye on Kilo around the birds from the beginning. 

I was pleased to see that during the day when they wander past him, he pays absolutely no attention to them. But feeding times were another matter. Kilo loved to accompany me to feed from the very beginning, but I found that having 100 or so birds stream out to greet me and run excitedly at my feet, was more excitement than he could handle. He would start gamboling through the flock, snapping lazily left and right grabbing at feathers. In the event he managed to snag a bird, he'd hold it in place and keep it from running forward. That's all it was - just holding the tail - but of course the bird would squawk and get my attention and I would correct him.

Unfortunately, in spite of immediate correction each and every time, he didn't seem able to control the urge and as soon as I let him go, he'd go right back to doing it. I was concerned that as he gets older and bigger, the behavior would escalate to actually hurting them.

I decided on positive reinforcement in addition to correcting the unwanted behavior, so any time he was calm, I'd notice and praise him for "being calm" - I actually used those words to him, over and over.

A week ago.....my fears were realized. While filling a waterer, I looked over to see Kilo with a juvenile in his mouth, leaving the feeding frenzy to run up the backyard. I had to take a moment to turn off the water before I could pursue but in a stroke of good fortune, my son happened to be outside, saw what was happening and ran to meet him. I was in pursuit by then and we reached him at the same time. He dropped the bird - who ran back to join the flock completely unharmed. I made a HUGE fuss, letting him know how displeased I was. 

The next day, feeding time came and Kilo came to join me. But, instead of running through the flock ahead of me, he walked behind me. I looked back to see him stepping slowly and carefully. The whole time I did my chores, he followed me closely, all the time moving carefully.

The following day the same. And, in the days since, he hasn't even once made a wrong move around the birds.

He is not yet 4 months old - we still have adolescence to go and it may be that it all changes again then. But for now it feels like he understands the importance of the birds. I still praise him out the wazoo every day he is "calm" and though I know he doesn't know the exact meaning of that word, he has heard it enough times to know I am pleased when he is.


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## Eagle1

you''l be amazed how quick these dogs learn what belongs and what does not. So far I've only have one that is slow, not slow learning, slow believing I'm right and she is wrong. Hardheaded @#[email protected]#[email protected] but the nicest when calm. Love LGDs both as workers and pets.


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## Maura

Good owner (click)

I don&#8217;t think Dizzy was mad at the puppy. Aunt and uncle dogs will replace the mother in teaching proper doggie manners. Dizzie got all over Kilo in an attempt to teach him better manners and to control his bite. This is all very normal and expected. Even cats do it.

I would keep him from the chickens for now, at least a one month. In spite of your corrections, he has already had fun by chasing and biting them. In the meantime, teach him &#8216;leave it&#8217;. Then, use a long leash and put in a few sessions with Kilo and chickens, and every time he steps toward a chicken, you tell him &#8216;leave it&#8217;. Do not let Kilo near chickens without proper supervision for longer than you think is necessary.


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## motdaugrnds

Your experiences with Kilo is very similar to mine with Valentina. I never needed a leash to teach my Karakachan to leave fowl alone. She understood from the beginning. (Situation: I had just brought her home at 8 wks of age and there was this rooster she wanted to play with. David clapped his hands to distract her. She looked at David, looked back at the rooster and left that bird alone. Not long afterward a similar situation occured when I let her out of her little house inside the barn. She went out, saw that same rooster, looked at me and then decided to "play" with the grass. I rolled her over and over on that grass; and she got up and then plopped down and rolled herself over and over on that grass...leaving the rooster alone. (The times when Valentina...and Cujo...harm any of my fowl is when baby keets cannot keep up with their mothers. However, when near their mothers both dogs respect that mother guinea. Neither have harmed my geese, chickens or grown guineas.)

Moboiku your instincts in working with your LGD is spot on! I'm so proud you got a Karakachan and are letting us all know how he is growing. (Of course I'm prejudiced and this Karakachan is the only LGD I've owned; however, I've read about many other LGDs who do not respect fowl. So maybe Karakachans are simply more tuned into their owners' expectations of how to act around birds.)

Sure am enjoying your pictures....


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## Moboiku

Thanks everyone - I do so appreciate the feedback, as raising an LGD is a totally new experience for us.

I was gone for a couple of days this week, during which time my neighbor kept an eye on my animals. She invited my dogs to go with her on her pasture walk and she reported back to me yesterday at how impressed she was by Kilo's instinct. Her dog - a lab/boxer mix - loves to chase rabbits. Consequently, her pasture walks are punctuated by her dog zigzagging around following rabbit trails. She said Kilo showed NO interest in the same rabbit trails but he showed her how much coyote activity she has in her pasture. Unlike mine, which is fenced to keep sheep and goats in, her fencing consists only of 5 strands of wire, to keep horses and cattle in, which makes it easily accessible to other animals as well. Until she walked with Kilo, she had not realized how many times coyotes have crossed through her property. She said Kilo was VERY interested in the coyote trails and especially any piles of scat they came across. I was fascinated to hear this and humbled by how much instinct these dogs are actually born with.

This morning on the pasture walk of our own property, I saw a difference in Kilo's behavior. It started when we reached the spot where we saw a coyote dig under a few weeks ago. I had blocked the spot with a rock and have shown it to Kilo on previous walks. However, this morning he went right to that spot and spent a considerable amount of time smelling the area and even licking the ground next to the rock. Then, as we continued down the fence line, I noticed that he would run about 10', then stop and stick his head through the fence breathing and smelling the air deeply. This continued for about 200'. I suspect the coyote we saw on Monday travelled through the area again either overnight or early this morning and was very pleased that Kilo was showing such intense interest in the scent.


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## motdaugrnds

Yep! A Karakachan in action! Way to go Kilo!!!!


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## Moboiku

I have a silkie hen - just one in a flock of large fowl - who gets special treatment. Because I worry that she doesn't feel confident enough to compete at the feeder with the bigger birds, each day I feed her separately to ensure she gets enough to eat. So when they all come streaming out to meet me, she runs with them, then flies/jumps into my arms to be carried to the feed room. I've taken to squatting down with her a second to show her to Kilo, wanting to communicate to him the importance of the birds to me. I.e., she has high status because I hold her and talk to her. Yesterday I spent a few moments again letting Kilo see that I was holding her, while telling him she is "mine" and letting him sniff her. Then, off we went to feed them all. After feeding, I set her down near a waterer, but this has become an issue as my largest rooster has started seeking her out to mate her as soon as I put her down. For days now I've been trying to **** him away while she cowers and tries to hide. Last night I thought she was safe and started to walk away when I heard her loud cries of distress and turned to see the rooster on her again. Kilo ran over to them and nosed the rooster off her! I was really pleased to see him feeling protective of the silkie he knows is held in such high regard by me.

[In a side note, I have now put the poor silkie hen in a small pen by herself for a few days since the overnight lows are forecast to be mild. I want to give her a break from the rooster but I'm not certain about her future here. I don't like keeping her segregated but also don't like seeing her cowed and afraid. Sigh. I've had her 4 years and it hasn't been an issue until recently. Maybe keeping her apart for a few days will redirect him to the larger hens and he'll forget about her when I let her back out.]


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## Moboiku

And - a new issue with Kilo. Or actually, Dizzy (cairn terrier). This past weekend I had to break up a couple of fights between them that evidently started when one had something the other thought should be theirs (toy or bone). This morning the trigger was REALLY clear. It was me. And Dizzy was most definitely the instigator. I was at my neighbor's doing chores, and while she worked the tractor, I decided to give Kilo some attention. I was playing with him, practicing picking up paws, looking at teeth - you know - all that stuff you're supposed to do to get them used to being handled. The next thing I knew, it was full-on. Dizzy got jealous of the attention Kilo was getting and it was rough. I was able to break it up much faster than when it happened over the weekend, as I had time to think about it since the last time. I immediately got Kilo down and put a knee on his neck to hold him down. Dizzy was still coming at him, but I was able to grab him by the scruff and put him down, holding him on his back with my other hand. This all happened super fast and while I was at it I yelled "No" several times. I held them down until they both relaxed, then let them up. Dizzy immediately tried to come back and start it all again but I was able to stop him by holding a hand in front of his muzzle and telling him "no" several more times. Then I redirected their attention to a new activity, and it was over. 

A few minutes later Dizzy came and wanted to be picked up and held. Dizzy is a rough and tumble farm dog - NOT a prissy little lap dog. He does not usually tolerate being held for more than a few seconds before he wants down. This time he wanted held until my arms ached and I couldn't hold him any longer. It was very clear that the whole thing was jealousy over my attention and the holding was needing reassurance that he is still special.

Not every instance has been over my attention but I realize now I'm going to have to tread carefully. Maybe even leave Dizzy in the house sometimes - he'll hate that - in order to give Kilo the attention he needs without it erupting into chaos. 

The sense I had was the Kilo was willing to let it go much sooner than was Dizzy. However he also was not going to let another dog push him around so if Dizzy wanted to fight, Kilo was not going to turn tail and run. With all that said, I also felt he practiced enormous self-restraint in not hurting Dizzy. He had him pinned - and already outweighs him by a substantial margin - and I think if he had been trying to hurt Dizzy, Dizzy would have been injured. It seemed to me he used as much force as necessary to pin Dizzy and no more. That a puppy still a few days away from being 4 months old is already able to use self-restraint is impressive.


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## LittleMrsAdams

That is one smart pup!


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## motdaugrnds

Interesting scenario! I know some do not believe dogs get jealous; however, I have experienced situations where there was simply no other explanation for an interaction. 

Moboiku, the one thing I would not do is keep the dogs separated. You dealt with that situation twice already; so you know you can. I suspect if you give Kilo "LOTS" of attention while Dizzy is watching, Dizzy will eventually learn he is still loved as much as ever and that it is ok for Kilo to be loved too. I'm guessing, as Kilo ages, he will not want as much attention...at least that is what has occurred with my Karakachan. (One thing I'm doing with Cujo...who still wants to butt in when I'm giving affection to Valentina...is to tell him to move and/or sit while I continue giving affection to Valentina. Cujo has not attacked Valentina to keep her from me, though he has growled to keep her from his food...and Valentina has growled at him. However, by keeping them near each other and letting them know they will get along whatever is occurring works very well because they both acknowledge me as boss.) So my suggestion is that you simply maintain your position and demand they respect whatever you permit.

Yes, that wonderful stance of not being willing to be pushed around seems to be genetic in these Karakachans!  I love their self-confidence as well as their ability to correct/restrain themselves! 

Good job Moboiku!


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## aart

Agrees with Motdaugrnds, both dogs need to learn to 'share the love'.

When I had 2 dogs, one would invariably butt in when the other was being petted.
Sometimes I'd pet them both at the same time, sometimes I'd make them take turns by putting one in sit/stay while I pet the other. Didn't take too long for them to get it, tho they didn't always care for it.

Existing pup needs a bit of extra attention at first....and occasionally one got to go out with me to train or play while the other stayed inside. It's a balance, you'll figure it out.


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## Moboiku

You guys make a lot of sense. I should reiterate that Dizzy loves to be outside more than anything and leaving him in would have only been an occasional thing, but for now I will change nothing and address jealousies as they come up.

I have to share a little tidbit about Kilo last night. Usually when I go to feed the sheep and goats and lock them in their barn for the night, the dogs stay up by the house. Last night they all followed me to the gate so I let them come into the pasture with me. Kilo then followed me into the barn and seemed interested in what I was doing. Because I talk to the dogs all the time anyway, I found myself talking to him as I went about and then had to laugh when I listened to myself. I realized I was explaining to him what I was doing as though he will one day be responsible for doing it himself.

"First we put the goat feed out. We put a scoop in this bowl here.....and then we put two scoops in this feeder over here....."

"Next we check that the sheep have minerals. Then we take this coffee can of grain and spread it out in their long feeder....."

Kilo followed me around, observing all of this with great interest. You can probably guess his next move - eating the goat food! Isn't it always the way? I buy a quality dog food that contains no corn, wheat or soy and then they seek out the food with the grains in it. It makes me wonder if all the hype about dog and cat food needing to be grain-free is just that, and it just makes them crave the grains even more.

Anyway, because I promised photos, I will add one here just because I can. I need to get out there and take some more updated photos. Kilo is now taller than Sammie and Tequila.


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL Just had to laugh at your talking to Kilo about what you were doing. I think all we who are close to our animals do this. I even do it with my goats and chickens. LOL

Kilo's eating the grain did not surprise me! It reminded me of the time(s) when Valentina did something that made me wonder if she thought she was a goat, i.e. standing on the stoop and pulling hay out of the goats' feeder bin...standing on her hind legs to reach a leaf and pull it off a tree like the goats were doing...LOL

Great picture!


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## wiscto

IMO dogs do get jealous. They play favorites, they get jealous, they hold grudges. I think they're pretty complex. Strange/new packs of dogs don't get pets from me until they sit and show me that it's my rules. If there's a clear alpha, nobody gets pets until that dog shows me submission. If any of them are overly exuberant I ignore them all. Any sign of reprisal toward another dog ends with me pointedly ignoring them all. That usually settles things down, because they're now worried about me and practicing avoidance, because I just initiated avoidance and that's a pretty big thing in dog world. Usually all dogs go their own way for a while to ease the tension. Either way there's no petting to fight over, so there's no need to fight. Most of the time. Like I said, they hold grudges. This all works well with my mother-in-law's dog pack, the composition of which changes way too frequently to not have a routine.


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## Moboiku

While on our pasture walk today, the dogs were running along happily exploring where there was a sudden and very obvious change in Kilo's body language. He went from playful puppy to serious upon the whiff of a scent in the air. He immediately went still, and started sniffing the air, looking in the direction from which the scent was coming. Our 11-month-old heifer calf follows us on the pasture walks and she too started smelling the air and even I thought I got a whiff of something out of the ordinary. We continued on, with Kilo stopping often to smell the air, always looking in the same direction. 

As we neared the halfway point of the pasture, I noticed a pile of feathers just outside the fence. My heart sank - I never like to lose a bird - but I couldn't place which one it was on the feathers as they were undercoat feathers. A little further down we found another patch of feathers and this time a head. It turned out not to be one of my birds but instead a wild duck. There are two possibilities. Ducks and geese have been hanging out on my pond lately so its possible it was caught here and carried over the fence. Or, beyond our fence is our hedge and beyond that is a much larger pond. So its possible it was caught off the other pond and dragged through the hedge to be eaten outside our fence.

Either way, I'm relieved not to have lost a bird and feel confident the whiff of a scent I got was a fox. I'm so pleased that Kilo is so responsive to the scents of the predators we have around here and glad he is getting these introductions to them.


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## Moboiku

Merry Christmas to those who celebrate it! Kilo is 4 months old today and growing quickly. He no longer looks like as much of a puppy and I'm starting to see his grown-up "form". For Christmas each of the dogs was given a pork bone of their own and they are thoroughly enjoying them. 

Until now, Kilo has been a playful puppy, happy to meet new people. Yesterday I got a glimpse of the adult he will become, as 10 members of the extended family descended on us for the day. Apparently he went out to meet them but 30 minutes after they arrived, our exchange student came in to tell me he couldn't find Kilo. My husband and said exchange student spent the next hour searching everywhere - including up and down our road. It seemed unlikely to me that he would take off as he has to date been a real home body, but I was concerned he got overwhelmed by the number of people visiting and took off. When they couldn't find a trace of him after some time, I started to really worry. I had had them look under the front porch first thing and they reported he wasn't under there but it simply didn't seem possible he had disappeared so thoroughly and my gut said he was under the porch. My husband and exchange student returned to the porch and half crawled under with flashlights but still insisted there was no sign of him under there. I went outside and bent down at the porch and called his name and immediately there was a reply. A small whimper and a paw stuck out to meet my hand. That was all. I think he found the number of people overwhelming and retreated to the safety of the porch to wait them out. Needless to say I was relieved to know he was okay.

Later he did come out and went out in the pasture with family and dogs, though I noticed he sat in a corner of the pasture observing where the other dogs were more interactive. However towards the end of the - cough - 10-HOUR visit - my 17yo nephew came in to ask if he could take Kilo home with him. He is a dog lover for sure and had evidently enjoyed getting to know Kilo.


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## BackfourtyMI.

Puppies were born December 22nd. Only 3 in this litter which is a very small litter but that's OK with me. Mamma is such a good dog & mamma.


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## Moboiku

Congratulations! I love the chocolate and white - they are so different than any I've seen before. Which are male and female?


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## motdaugrnds

Beautiful pups Katie. The look in that momma's eyes says so much about the breed. My favorite is the red coloring.


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## BackfourtyMI.

Moboiku said:


> Congratulations! I love the chocolate and white - they are so different than any I've seen before. Which are male and female?


The black & white is the male & the 2 red/white are females. The red & white is not real common like the black/white. I love them both.


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## Moboiku

Not a lot is new with Kilo. He continues to grow - he's eating me out of house and home! - but is behaving very well, so far. I remain constantly aware that adolescence is yet to come 

So far at least, he is very much a home body, preferring to hang around the house and showing no inclination to wander. We visit the next door neighbor daily to take care of the cows and sometimes he feels I'm there too long and crawls under her gate to return home. Probably to eat.

He is now taller than any of my other dogs and still has a lot of growing to do.

Every day we do a perimeter walk of the pasture and he loves that - frequently stopping to examine and smell scents that are way beyond my frequency.

Recently he has expressed interest in accompanying me to tuck the sheep and goats into their barn at night. He used to stay up by the house with the other dogs but I invited him to come with me one night and since then he has volunteered to join me most nights. He putters around in the barn while I do the evening chores, showing great interest in all of it. 

I've seen many positive interactions with the sheep. The only ewe who continues to distrust him is a ewe with 6-week-old twin lambs at foot - the rest seem to have accepted him and tolerate his puppy antics. I've noticed him smelling the nether regions of the does and ewes several times, which I've heard is a dog's way of bonding with them. 

We've had some cold weather of late and though Kilo doesn't seem to notice, I do put a coat on my house dog. Here is a pic of the two of them together.


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## motdaugrnds

Cannot help but notice that stance and the way Kilo is looking at the one with the camera...such confidence!

Great puppy antics...enjoy while you can as adolescents is right around the corner. HeHeHe (I actually enjoyed adolescents too even though it can be challenging. You need to maintain a SOLID calm/assertive state.) Can hardly wait to hear how it goes....


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## Moboiku

Last night I fed the sheep and goats at the usual time. Kilo and Dizzy went out with me and they went off on an explore while I did chores. When the ruminants got done eating their grain I realized it was still pretty light out and decided to give them another 30 minutes of graze time before locking them in for the night. The dogs were nowhere to be seen so I let them stay out in the pasture while I went inside to start dinner. I kept watching from the kitchen window and I could see them most of the time - they seemed to be having a ball. 30 minutes stretched to 50 and finally the light was fading and it was time to go and put them all to bed. As soon as I went in the pasture, I called to the dogs and they came running - legs covered in mud from our pond - ugh - but big grins on their faces. They had SO. MUCH. FUN. The sheep sort of knew they had to go back in the barn but were also sort of hopeful that I had something else for them so were hanging back, avoiding going in. I started herding them and asked Kilo to give me a hand. He actually seemed like he understood the goal. He stayed behind them with me and would go from one to the other of them, sniffing their butts. I've read that dogs sniffing the butts of the stock is a bonding exercise - no idea if there is any validity to that theory or not, but just in case, I was pleased to see it. Eventually, between the two of us, we had them all in the barn and closed the gate behind them. He had a big grin on his face as I told him what a good job he did. 

He is only 4 months old, and I know instinct hasn't even really kicked in yet, but I like moments like these, where it feels like we are working together to care for the sheep. On the other hand.....I was also pleased that his presence behind them did not have the sheep in a panic, hurrying forward to get away from him - he is not like a herding dog at all. Rather, they tolerated his presence there, treating him exactly the same as they did me. I.e., I can be behind them, shush-shushing them forward and if I touch a butt, they'll speed up because - EEK - The human is _touching_ us! But they're not really afraid of me. The same with Kilo. Having him behind them did not seem to apply any kind of real pressure, in the way that a predator would. I don't know if I'm explaining that to where it makes sense?


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## aart

Sure it makes sense.
Kilo is learning a lot by experience and observation of you and Dizzy.
He got some playtime, which is always good for a young pup.
Came back when called to finish up chores.
He showed restraint with the sheep and watched you touch them to move them along.
Sounds like it was a good time all around.
Smart and balanced dogs and trainer.


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## Moboiku

Yesterday there were a couple things with Kilo that are worth mentioning. First is that he has started to like to go across our road to smell something in the grass there. I can't see anything but trust that his nose is telling him something I don't know about because he always goes to the exact same spot. I don't really like him crossing the road because despite being a dirt road, cars sometimes go down it way too fast. So, two days ago, I asked all of the dogs to "stay" at the top of the driveway, before I walked out to check the mail. Sammie and Tequila are obedience trained and immediately sat and stayed. Dizzy knows what stay means but being a terrier.....if it doesn't suit him, he doesn't always do it for that long  Kilo has never been taught "stay" so had no idea what I was on about and followed me to the mailbox. I was able to physically keep him from crossing the road and we walked back to the house. Yesterday when it came time to check the mail, I repeated the "stay" to all 4 dogs, place my flat hand in front of Kilo's face as I do the others. He started to walk forward. I repeated "stay" and repeated the flat hand gently pushing him back. He looked at me as though a lightbulb just went on and he suddenly understood what I meant. He stopped moving forward and stood still. I walked to the mailbox, looking back over my shoulder every few steps and repeating "stay". I got the mail and walked back to him. He never took a step. When I got to him, I made such a fuss about what a good dog he is and he was pleased as punch to have figured out what "stay" means and to get all the attention for it! Meanwhile, I am pleased as punch to have a dog who is intelligent enough to learn that easily.

Last night I was next door doing cow chores. As we stood talking, a fight broke out. This is the first in at least two weeks and it was Dizzy and Kilo. My first instinct was to jump in and "save" Dizzy. But since the last time I had thought a lot about it and decided IF it happened again, I might see what happened if I let them work it out. My neighbor started yelling at Kilo to try to break it up. I told her to leave them. You see, Dizzy was snarling and biting at Kilo - he wasn't screaming or crying in pain. And there was no blood flying either. It went on for what seemed like a LONG time but in reality was probably only 60 seconds. Kilo had Dizzy pinned pretty quickly, but Dizzy was fighting and snarling and trying to get the better of him. Kilo put both forearms across him, in an X, his butt in the air and just looked down at him. If they were kids, I would imagine Kilo was saying "do you give up yet? do you give up yet? do you give up yet?". After what seemed like ages, Dizzy said "Yeah, I give up'. Kilo let him up. Dizzy tried to walk off, but Kilo stayed right behind him. Dizzy kept looking back kind of irritated, like "I SAID I give up - leave me alone". Only then did I intervene and get Kilo's attention and tell him he won - let Dizzy lick his pride. Because that's all he has to lick - there isn't a mark on him.

I am honestly in awe that a 4-month-old pup can show that degree of restraint. He used exactly the force he needed to, to subdue Dizzy and teach him that he is alpha. I don't think Dizzy will challenge him again.

The previous instances, I broke it up by lifting Dizzy out of the situation and into my arms. I think in HIS mind, he won. So the next time, he felt he could challenge Kilo again because "Hey, I proved I'm more powerful than him last time". 

By letting them work it through on their own this time, I really think its settled. Time will tell.


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## yarrow

Backfourty said:


> The black & white is the male & the 2 red/white are females. The red & white is not real common like the black/white. I love them both.


how the heck did I miss your puppy birth announcement??? (I did have a bad case of the crud around Christmas and wasn't online much).. CONGRATS.. she is stingy with males isn't she??? Asen and all his sisters last year LOL.. these babies look as nice as the 2014 babies...she's such a good mommy

susie


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## BackfourtyMI.

yarrow said:


> how the heck did I miss your puppy birth announcement??? (I did have a bad case of the crud around Christmas and wasn't online much).. CONGRATS.. she is stingy with males isn't she??? Asen and all his sisters last year LOL.. these babies look as nice as the 2014 babies...she's such a good mommy
> 
> susie




I was so from Dec. 20 until last week myself. Didn't really make an announcement as I knew all these babies were spoken for already.
They are all doing great! 
The male I guess determines the sex just like with goats or so I've read.


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## motdaugrnds

OMG I love the way Kilo is developing! He is smart and sensitive. To learn to "stay" so quickly seems to be inherent in these Karakachans...Valentina learned it quickly too. And Kilo doesn't appear to be mean at all...just assertive. You were so smart to let Kilo and Dizzy work it out between them So many "little" dogs never get the opportunity to learn good social skills with other dogs. I think what Dizzy learned from Kilo is invaluable! (I'm curious how your other two dogs took this incident. Did they see it; and if so, what did they do?)


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## Moboiku

Backfourty said:


> as I knew all these babies were spoken for already.


That's a great position to be in. Did you have more people on the waiting list than you wound up having puppies for?



motdaugrnds said:


> (I'm curious how your other two dogs took this incident. Did they see it; and if so, what did they do?)


That is a very interesting question. To be honest, it all happened so fast and I was watching what unfolded so intently that the other dogs weren't on my radar at all.

I think in the beginning they would have rushed in to protect Dizzy because he was part of their pack and Kilo was initially still an outsider. But, over the past two months he has become part of their pack as well so I think now they would just consider it two pack members having a tiff and would not step in to referee.


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## Moboiku

The update this time isn't about Kilo per se, but Kilo's new partner. We had decided early on that he would need a partner at some point but after weighing all our options, decided sooner rather than later works best for us, the reasoning being that getting a pup now means we have two puppies simultaneously - which may be a lot of work - but ultimately it might be MORE exhausting to have back to back puppy and adolescent phases.

So, yesterday we spent an entire day in the car, driving to pick up Kilo's future partner. This time we got a female since, though eventually both will be neutered, everything we've read indicates that male/female pairs work best together. However "just in case" we were careful to get a pup who is completely unrelated to Kilo so that IF we decide to let them have a litter, it will be possible. Both pups were carefully and thoughtfully bred so are good examples of their breed and have good genetics. And, since Karakachans are still rare in the US, it seems a shame to waste all that good breeding. With the thought in mind that for genetic diversity it is better for many dogs to have one litter than for one dog to have many litters.....IF we can stand to have intact dogs around, we MIGHT allow them to have one litter before altering them.

I'm not huge on looks, feeling that work performance is far more important, so my only criteria when choosing a pup was that she look substantially different from Kilo so when I look out the kitchen window at the pasture, there is no mistaking them. With that in mind, I perused photos of several available females sent to me by the breeder, and had picked one out in my mind but decided to reserve judgement until I got there to see which one "felt" like the right pup in person. Once I got there, the decision was easy. The breeder had them in smallish chicken tractors and said he doesn't handle them at all in case sheep ranchers want them unused to human contact. So when he opened the tractor, they ran to the farthest corner and didn't want anything to do with people. But the pup I'd picked from pictures was clearly curious about me and she sat in the back lifting her paw to me over and over again like she was waving or high fiving me. I held out my hand and talked to them and she was the only one brave enough to come over and smell my hand. So it really felt like she was the right choice. 

She was SO good on the way home. In spite of how shy and unhandled she was, that time in the car meant she quickly saw us as her safety net so once we got home and put her down, she'd go to explore, then come back to us for reassurance over and over.

We arrived home as it was getting dark so after a quick bite to eat and short pasture walk, she and Kilo went to bed together in their dog run. I feel the companionship will help her to bond with Kilo as well as get to know the sheep and goats. Plus, they'll be able to snuggle and keep each other warm - it got mighty cold here this weekend!

Without further ado, here are a couple of photos of her and one of Kilo that - finally - shows the sable striping in his coat.


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## BackfourtyMI.

Moboiku said:


> That's a great position to be in. Did you have more people on the waiting list than you wound up having puppies for?
> 
> 
> Yes, more people last litter also than I had puppies as well.


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## motdaugrnds

She is beautiful....and just look at those eyes....as though she is looking right thru you, which seems to be a trait of these karakachans. Ummmm where's her tail?


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## aart

Ah, the plot thickens in this wonderful story!

Tail's probably tucked tight...haha!

She's gorgeous.


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## edwardsonfarm

Very Very cute! Did you mention a name? If so I missed it. Can't wait to see how this bond grows


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## Moboiku

motdaugrnds said:


> Ummmm where's her tail?


You have a good eye. As aart suggested it might be tucked up, in this photo I can almost see it tucked in. However....she is a natural bobtail. The breeder said this is a trait of one line of Karakachans in Bulgaria and her father, who was imported, is from that line and is also a natural bobtail. It is apparently a recessive gene as only 2-3 pups out of every litter is born with a bobtail. I hesitated for just a second before deciding on her, because it is so unorthodox but then logic set in. In terms of her ability to protect my stock, it won't make a difference whether she has a tail or not!



edwardsonfarm said:


> Very Very cute! Did you mention a name? If so I missed it. Can't wait to see how this bond grows


The poor little girl went two full days without a name as we tried out several to see if they fit her. As of this afternoon she has been named Karina, which means "companion". As we got her to be a companion/partner/work-mate for Kilo, this seemed appropriate and also seems to "fit" her.

****************

I am immensely enjoying watching this little pup come out of her shell. We're doing 3 pasture walks per day and in just two days she has developed so much confidence. Where on the first day she crashed into my legs constantly in her desperation to touch me at all times, by today she is already bounding ahead and playing a little with the other dogs. It was in the 40's so I took advantage of the lovely weather and spent a good portion of the day in the pasture, which allowed her to explore the area a little, as I raked hay, hauled water and later, sat in a lawn chair and read my Kindle.

Here is a picture of Kilo and Karina during one of our pasture walks. Hard to believe there is only 7 weeks between them!


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## edwardsonfarm

Perfect name


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## fluttervale

Moboiku, please be careful with Dizzy and Kilo. Dogs do not always recognize size as a weakness/strength and terriers are especially prone to picking fights they can't finish. At some point, Kilo is going to be mature enough to put an end to Dizzy's nonsense but not mature enough to know when the fight's over, and Dizzy could end up at the vet or worse.

I had a situation where I had an elderly but bitchy Lab girl and an adolescent, and I'll be damned if that old girl didn't pick about half a dozen fights that she couldn't finish. I had four in the house--three labs and a collie--and the old girl had the two boys (collie, young mature male Lab) terrified. She could never catch the puppy so she'd go after whoever was handy. I figure that if the adolescent was about a year older, she would've killed the old girl in a fight given a chance. At the time I lost the old girl, she was still too young to notice the animosity.

So, please be careful with Dizzy. Dizzy should be laid into for starting fights with other pack members. By picking him up and consoling him in the first fight, you established that you were OK with him going after a dog that's going to grow up to be five times his size with an attitude to match.


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## Moboiku

Thanks so much for sharing your experience and concern Fluttervale. I reached the same conclusion you did. I know I write too much. Too wordy. LOL. After thinking about the situation for some time, I had decided that extracting Dizzy was the wrong action and determined that the next time I would react differently. About a week ago I had the opportunity and here is what happened:



> Last night I was next door doing cow chores. As we stood talking, a fight broke out. This is the first in at least two weeks and it was Dizzy and Kilo. My first instinct was to jump in and "save" Dizzy. But since the last time I had thought a lot about it and decided IF it happened again, I might see what happened if I let them work it out. My neighbor started yelling at Kilo to try to break it up. I told her to leave them. You see, Dizzy was snarling and biting at Kilo - he wasn't screaming or crying in pain. And there was no blood flying either. It went on for what seemed like a LONG time but in reality was probably only 60 seconds. Kilo had Dizzy pinned pretty quickly, but Dizzy was fighting and snarling and trying to get the better of him. Kilo put both forearms across him, in an X, his butt in the air and just looked down at him. If they were kids, I would imagine Kilo was saying "do you give up yet? do you give up yet? do you give up yet?". After what seemed like ages, Dizzy said "Yeah, I give up'. Kilo let him up. Dizzy tried to walk off, but Kilo stayed right behind him. Dizzy kept looking back kind of irritated, like "I SAID I give up - leave me alone". Only then did I intervene and get Kilo's attention and tell him he won - let Dizzy lick his pride. Because that's all he has to lick - there isn't a mark on him.
> 
> I am honestly in awe that a 4-month-old pup can show that degree of restraint. He used exactly the force he needed to, to subdue Dizzy and teach him that he is alpha. I don't think Dizzy will challenge him again.
> 
> The previous instances, I broke it up by lifting Dizzy out of the situation and into my arms. I think in HIS mind, he won. So the next time, he felt he could challenge Kilo again because "Hey, I proved I'm more powerful than him last time".
> 
> By letting them work it through on their own this time, I really think its settled. Time will tell.


Since then there have been no further incidents. Dizzy and Kilo have played together as great buddies but Dizzy seems to have learned his lesson. Fingers crossed he remembers it anyway.


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL Gotta love Karakachans!!! Just something special about their attitude. Kilo's using just enough force to win without drawing blood is a testament to his character! (Smart owner too.  )


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## Moboiku

Kilo and Karina are now living full time in the barn and pasture area. When it was only Kilo, I didn't feel I could leave him out there alone so he was up around the house with the other dogs a good part of each day. But since Karina arrived, I decided it was time to transition him to being an LGD. Karina has not left her work area since she arrived and Kilo has been there since the day after. 

Note: I am NOT expecting them to be guardians at this young age. I am simply letting them learn where THEIR home is. Our weather has been so nice that I've been with them the majority of the time and when I am not, my other three older dogs are with them. This keeps them from getting bored and into mischief but I am not expecting them to actually protect the sheep or goats at this point. At night they are all - dogs and stock - locked in the barn for protection.

With that said.....every day I see more and more of Kilo's future potential. The combination of moving to live with the sheep AND having a younger pup has seen a change in him. Although he isn't even old enough to be a guardian yet himself, he appears to be mentoring Karina. She is like the little kid sister, adoringly following her older brother around. We'll all be up front and Kilo will decide to go for a little explore. Once he gets about 50' from me, Karina will jump up and run after him, then follow him around everywhere until they both come back together to lay down again. 

I'm also noticing that Kilo is starting to pay more attention to external inputs. He'll be lying, apparently sound asleep in the sun, but if there is an unusual sound, he'll sit up to look in that direction. Karina will go on sleeping - just as Kilo would have a short time ago. Its incredible to watch this transformation take place.

The last way I've noticed Kilo maturing into his role...he CAN certainly still be a happy-go-lucky puppy gamboling around in play. But around the sheep now, he stops gamboling and walks, very slowly and calmly. They've become accustomed to his presence, and his movements are so designed NOT to upset them, that he walks behind and among them without reaction. This morning I watched as he approached a ewe and started sniffing her rear end. Her response was to lift her tail high and to the side to give him access to clean her off. Once he was done, he wandered back over to me. Let me tell you, this is a level of trust the sheep don't even have in me! Not that I've ever wanted to lick them - I want to be clear on that - but I'm quite sure that same ewe would not have responded to me in the same way she did Kilo


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## motdaugrnds

Sure am enjoying hearing about the way your Karakachans are growing and finding their place on your farm. Karina sounds so adorable and Kilo so sweet natured with her. 

How have Kilo and Dizzy been getting along since their little fus? Would love to see how Karina will deal with dominance issues. (I've noticed with my own Karakachan that she seems to have no need to prove her dominant position and my lab has no need to be dominant. When playing, Valentina will let Cujo catch her and "play" dominant over her; then jump up and run some more. And at meal times they never compete with each other.) Real interested in learning how your two Karakachans sort out their roles....

Moboiku I love the way you're interacting with those LGDs. Great job of letting them be independent "within a structure determined by you".


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## CottageLife

It's been very interesting reading about your new pup and his roll as he grows. Can I ask what you'll be doing with Katrina and Kilo since you aren't thinking you'll spay/neuter asap and pups can get pregnant as young as 4-5 months old? Since they are living together and learning to work together, how do you prevent pregnancy in a dog that is just a puppy?


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## Moboiku

CottageLife said:


> It's been very interesting reading about your new pup and his roll as he grows. Can I ask what you'll be doing with Katrina and Kilo since you aren't thinking you'll spay/neuter asap and pups can get pregnant as young as 4-5 months old? Since they are living together and learning to work together, how do you prevent pregnancy in a dog that is just a puppy?


I have a very secure but very large dog pen (photos earlier in this thread) that the female will be confined to when she has her first heat cycle. Being large breed dogs, they typically don't have their first heat until 10 months or older and the second about six months later. Depending on how old she is at her first heat, she may be able to be bred by her second heat. I'm hoping that's the case, so I only have to get through one heat cycle. 

And a lot of that will depend on how easily I can handle having two intact dogs. I've never done it before and am leaving it open-ended. If it proves to be too much, first one, then the other will be altered. 

Having puppies was never my end goal - what I was looking for, was livestock guardian dogs. However given how rare Karakachans still are in this country and the fact that my two both have good breeding behind them AND are completely unrelated (which is difficult to find in a rare breed with a small gene pool), I am feeling it might help the breed to allow them to have a litter or two before removing them from the gene pool.


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## CottageLife

Moboiku said:


> I have a very secure but very large dog pen (photos earlier in this thread) that the female will be confined to when she has her first heat cycle. Being large breed dogs, they typically don't have their first heat until 10 months or older and the second about six months later. Depending on how old she is at her first heat, she may be able to be bred by her second heat. I'm hoping that's the case, so I only have to get through one heat cycle.
> 
> And a lot of that will depend on how easily I can handle having two intact dogs. I've never done it before and am leaving it open-ended. If it proves to be too much, first one, then the other will be altered.
> 
> Having puppies was never my end goal - what I was looking for, was livestock guardian dogs. However given how rare Karakachans still are in this country and the fact that my two both have good breeding behind them AND are completely unrelated (which is difficult to find in a rare breed with a small gene pool), I am feeling it might help the breed to allow them to have a litter or two before removing them from the gene pool.


Thank you for the information. Because I'm not familiar with this breed, are there a lot of good quality homes that can handle them waiting to purchase them? Meaning, if you bred them down the road, you'd be able to find them appropriate homes?


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## Moboiku

CottageLife said:


> Thank you for the information. Because I'm not familiar with this breed, are there a lot of good quality homes that can handle them waiting to purchase them? Meaning, if you bred them down the road, you'd be able to find them appropriate homes?


There is a very high demand for them as Livestock Guardian Dogs. Most people who decide this is the breed for them, wind up having to get on a breeder's waiting list.

CottageLife, thank you for your kind handling of questions.....as an avid dog rescuer all my life (and foster home for a local rescue for many years) I do understand about the surplus of dogs and that many are euthanized each year due to lack of homes. I would never consider breeding for the pet market for that reason. However when it comes to livestock guardians - and especially this rare breed - I've made an exception. First because after years of research, I realized that with rare exceptions, it is best to start with a puppy and raise it with the stock it will guard. And second because while some LGDs do end up in rescues, generally they are there because they didn't work out as guardians, and for that reason, it is risky to adopt one. Personally I would hate to bring home an adult rescue LGD and have it kill the stock it is supposed to protect. 

As homesteading becomes more popular, and as we (as a human race) continue to build homes and encroach on the hunting grounds of predators, the need for LGDs seems to be growing.

Breeding is still an "if" for me but "if" I do decide to proceed, pups will only be placed in pre-qualified, working (as opposed to pet) homes.


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## CottageLife

Moboiku said:


> There is a very high demand for them as Livestock Guardian Dogs. Most people who decide this is the breed for them, wind up having to get on a breeder's waiting list.
> 
> CottageLife, thank you for your kind handling of questions.....as an avid dog rescuer all my life (and foster home for a local rescue for many years) I do understand about the surplus of dogs and that many are euthanized each year due to lack of homes. I would never consider breeding for the pet market for that reason. However when it comes to livestock guardians - and especially this rare breed - I've made an exception. First because after years of research, I realized that with rare exceptions, it is best to start with a puppy and raise it with the stock it will guard. And second because while some LGDs do end up in rescues, generally they are there because they didn't work out as guardians, and for that reason, it is risky to adopt one. Personally I would hate to bring home an adult rescue LGD and have it kill the stock it is supposed to protect.
> 
> As homesteading becomes more popular, and as we (as a human race) continue to build homes and encroach on the hunting grounds of predators, the need for LGDs seems to be growing.
> 
> Breeding is still an "if" for me but "if" I do decide to proceed, pups will only be placed in pre-qualified, working (as opposed to pet) homes.


Thank YOU Moboiku for taking my questions as they are - just questions, and not accusations  I, too, am involved in rescue. We just moved out to the country and I'm working on trying to truly understand working dogs and how they can and should be treated vs dogs just left outside. I'm not saying it well, but I'm guessing you know what I mean. I can see where guardian dogs have a job. Thank you for being willing to help me understand the working side better


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## hoddedloki

Awesome work with the dogs, and fantastic to see pups growing up. As a dog breeder (German Shepherds), I figured I would give you a heads up about the joys of dogs in heat. 

Dogs will breed through the sides of the pen you have set up. The problem is that you have to keep dogs from getting to Karina and at the same time keep Karina from getting to the other dogs. Both she and the dogs will want to breed. I have seen dogs breed through a chain link fence, so a fence by itself is not enough. Dogs will also come from miles around for the opportunity when Karina goes into heat. One option would be a dog crate in the pen, or putting Karina into a room (with a cleanable floor) during the 2-week heat period. When you take her out for a walk when she is in heat, she will need to be on a leash, as she may not come when called during heat. Frankly, dealing with dogs in heat is a pain, but when you have a liter of puppies, it is all worth it. Good Luck!

Regards,
Loki


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## Moboiku

hoddedloki said:


> Dogs will breed through the sides of the pen you have set up. The problem is that you have to keep dogs from getting to Karina and at the same time keep Karina from getting to the other dogs. Both she and the dogs will want to breed. I have seen dogs breed through a chain link fence, so a fence by itself is not enough. Dogs will also come from miles around for the opportunity when Karina goes into heat.


Thanks so much Loki - I did not know they could breed through a pen and it is very useful information. When I was a kid, my parents had an intact female. Back then, I don't think they were aware of the option of spaying because its hard to imagine them that irresponsible now  I can recall being a small child taking her for a walk and trying to beat off a horde of interested male dogs when she went into heat so I do know what you mean about them "coming from miles around".

You've definitely given me a lot to think about. I don't think bringing her in the house will be an option as she was born in a barn and has never lived anywhere else. However I did get to thinking about the problem, and I think I've come up with a workable solution. The gates we have on the front of our barn are 2x4 wire mesh covered, in this style:

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/wire-filled-gate-14-ft?cm_vc=-10005

The dog run is some distance from the gates so if I can keep Karina in the dog run and keep Kilo (and other male dogs, though I suspect Kilo will keep them from getting close to the barn) out of the barn, they shouldn't be able to make contact. My next thought was that if he is motivated enough, he might try to jump over the gate, but I think I can temporarily affix a cattle panel to span the posts above the gate, to prevent that. It will mean I will have to open the gate and duck under the cattle panel as I enter but as it will only be for a 2-4 week period, I can live with that. Digging under the gate is already not an option as a panel lays beneath the gate - we did that to prevent coyotes digging in and making a meal of the sheep right there in the barn. 

It is a long way in the future but I really appreciate your input as I like to be prepared ahead of time and would have been dismayed to think I had things covered and then have them mate right through the side of the dog run.


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## Moboiku

There hasn't been much noteworthy with Kilo and Karina in the past couple of weeks. We've settled into a routine that we - and they - seem to find acceptable. They sleep together in their dog run, and spend the day in the pasture. Generally some combination of the other three dogs are with them so they play and wrestle and go on little explores around the pasture, then collapse onto the hay pile to nap for awhile. We do several perimeter walks each day and they have frequent opportunity to go into the barn to eat their fill. As dusk falls, they get their bowl of milk and go into the dog run for the night. They seem happy and content, and I'm really enjoying watching them grow up and develop a bond with the sheep and goats (who sometimes surround them on the hay pile to join them for nap time).

Kilo turned 5 months old yesterday. He eats crazy amounts but so far is using the calories to grow up. I expect one day he will stop growing up and start to fill out but for now he can't seem to keep up so is on the lean side.

He is difficult to photograph, being a dark colored dog, but I tried yesterday and got a couple worth posting.


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## motdaugrnds

Just look at Kilo's eyes (first picture). Remind me so much of Valentina's....no nonsense awareness...and yes, he does look thin. I suspect he will start growing "out" one of these days and you will have a very large dog.

Love Karina's red head!


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## Moboiku

I went out to the barn this morning to find a new lamb - a few days earlier than expected. I was curious to see how Kilo would react. He was fabulous. Normally after letting Kilo and Karina out of their dog pen, I open the gate and he trots through the sheep area to get outside (Karina can still fit through the squares in the livestock panel, so she goes directly out by herself). But this morning the new mother ewe was waiting at the gate and watching Kilo. She is the most aggressive mother I have and has pinned my other dogs to fences more times than I can count in the first few weeks after giving birth. Kilo seemed to sense that he needed to be careful and his demeanor was SO different than usual. His body language couldn't have been more submissive and he stayed pressed against my leg, keeping me between her and himself as we walked. I took him over to the water to get a drink and the ewe followed us over. To my surprise, instead of getting her head down and butting Kilo, she walked over to him and they touched noses. Its like she knows he's not a threat to her baby, even though every other dog ever, has been. That is a first for her for sure!

I have quite a few more ewes and does with due dates throughout February so I was really pleased to see how Kilo reacted to this first one.


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## motdaugrnds

Oh my goodness, what a dog! He obviously sensed that ewe was nervous and he seemed quite unsure as to what she would do. Using you as his go-between was so smart! The ewe obviously wouldn't hurt you and it gave her time to see that Kilo was not going to threaten her. Then they sniffed each other for confirmation of friendship. (ROFL Now I realize this is my interpretation and may be totally off; but that is certainly how I read the situation....Thus, I say "What a Dog!") 

What did Karina do?


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## Moboiku

Never have I wished I had a video as much as what occurred yesterday. Karina is very respectful of the sheep and goats so avoids interaction with them, especially the lambs, since I think she senses the ewes wouldn't like that. But the new little lamb was curious about her and wanted to visit. He ran up to her and she looked horrified, then ran. This only increased the lamb's resolve to get to know this interesting creature so he sped up. I couldn't do anything but laugh at the sight of a 2-day-old lamb chasing a 4-month-old livestock guardian dog in big circles around the pasture. Too late I realized my phone was in my pocket the whole time


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## Moboiku

I figured it was time to update with some Kilo Photos. Kilo is a hard dog to photograph due to his dark coloring. Also, the fact he is a puppy. I bring out the camera and the dogs all want to stand at my feet looking up at me - not a great angle for photos. Today I was able to capture both Kilo and Karina as they were focused on a prize Dizzy had (large bone) instead of on me. 

I find this dynamic interesting. For dogs, ownership is clearly dictated by possession - the size of the dog does not seem to be a factor. Both Kilo and Karina desperately WANTED the bone. But as long as Dizzy retained possession, they respected that - in that moment - he owned it. The second he sets it down and walks away though, ownership changes paws to the one lucky enough to snatch it up first. 

Although it isn't great of any of the dogs, I thought this photo shows their relative sizes quite well. Kilo is now 5 Â½ months, while Karina is a few days shy of being 4 months old.


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## motdaugrnds

ROFL That story about the little lamb chasing Kilo is priceless. It took quite awhile for me to stop laughing...

Finally I get to see Karina's tail. My lab, Cujo, would not like that because, when he chases Valentina, it is her tail he tries to grab. She is just too fast for him to have a chance at grabbing anything else. ROFL Karina is a doll! And look at that bone. When you said "large bone" it didn't occur to me it might have had some joints....LOL Dizzy is precious and quite fiesty to hang onto that bone despite the size differences of the other two. ROFL Moboiku what an interesting pack of dogs you have!


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## aart

Moboiku said:


> Never have I wished I had a video as much as what occurred yesterday. Karina is very respectful of the sheep and goats so avoids interaction with them, especially the lambs, since I think she senses the ewes wouldn't like that. But the new little lamb was curious about her and wanted to visit. He ran up to her and she looked horrified, then ran. This only increased the lamb's resolve to get to know this interesting creature so he sped up. I couldn't do anything but laugh at the sight of a 2-day-old lamb chasing a 4-month-old livestock guardian dog in big circles around the pasture. Too late I realized my phone was in my pocket the whole time


Ha!! Wonders what the mama ewe thought about that?!


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## Moboiku

Today has been an exhausting day on our homestead. We woke to find that twin doelings had been born in the early morning hours. The mother has kidded before but it is her first time kidding for us and when I went out to check on them, I found that she was caring for one but rejecting the other. By holding her, I was able to ensure the rejected kid nursed but alone the mother would butt her away and refuse to stand for her to nurse. Even the kid she accepted, she is largely indifferent to. As soon as I opened the gate to her pen, she left to go and eat hay, leaving the kids behind and ignoring their pleas for her to care for them. 

Enter Kilo. These are not our first lambs or kids since he's been here, but until now the mothers have been attentive and protective so he hasn't tried to get close. But with an absentee mother, he got to meet a newborn up close for the first time. He first sniffed her all over and then started licking her to clean her off. He was incredibly gentle and I am again in awe of his maturity at under six months of age, to know that he has to place his big paws carefully and lick gently to avoid knocking the little one off her shaky newborn legs.

While supervising him closely, I realized that it was a still pregnant doe who came in to check that he was behaving around the newborn - not the kids' mother. And then I realized that she seemed to be pacing and a little uncomfortable. Sure enough, she was in labor too!!! A couple of hours later she also delivered twins.

Tally for today: 3 doelings and 1 buckling. Indifferent mother still lacks maternal instinct but I believe I'll be able to convince her to accept the reject kid in the long run - she isn't fighting as hard to let her nurse this afternoon. Meanwhile, the second doe to deliver has indicated a willingness to adopt both kids if necessary. When they cry out, she is the first to respond and when they approach her, she licks them just as she does her own kids.


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## Moboiku

Kilo is 6 months old today and no longer the awkward puppy with the big movements. He has grown into his body and grows more confident everyday. It is increasingly easy to imagine him protecting our livestock! On our perimeter walk this evening, he stopped at a spot in the fence and stayed there for awhile, looking very focused and growling periodically. I have seen coyotes in that area in the past and though I didn't see one today, his behavior leads me to believe there was possibly a coyote or fox that I couldn't see.


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## motdaugrnds

He gets more handsome all the time!


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## Moboiku

Its been awhile since I did an update. A couple things have happened.

The dogs killed a chicken. Yep, sad, but true. The chickens are penned in a large chicken "yard" adjacent to the pasture. Most stay put but a few will fly over the fence into the pasture. I've caught the dogs "playing" with a chicken a couple of times but both times she was unharmed and ran off when I yelled to them to leave it. However this past weekend I found a dead hen. Kilo and Karina got to find out what I look like when really angry and they didn't like it one bit. Sigh. I guess we are entering the adolescent phase.

Short of tethering or penning the dogs, which I'm unwilling to do, there isn't much I can change. The birds are only vulnerable if they fly into the pasture and I am trying to stay vigilant and give the pups plenty to keep them busy but the occasional accident can happen even so.

On a lighter note....a few days ago Kilo indicated he'd like to be a "big dog" and stay outside at night instead of going into the dog run. That night storms were forecast so I insisted he go in (which he did) but this week is scheduled to be dry so last night for the first time I let both pups stay outside the barn for the whole night. The goats and sheep are locked in, other than the goat buck who sleeps out in the open. I figured letting the pups stay out to "guard" the pasture when the only animal they actually need to protect is a buck, might be a good introduction to their future role. They did GREAT. I didn't hear any barking until after the sun was up this morning (and then it was only one short burst) and they didn't appear to get into any mischief either.

My hope is that by transitioning them to being outside at night, they will be more active at night and sleep more by day, which will in turn keep the chickens safer  Certainly today that seemed to be the case as the pups spent more time sleeping than on a typical day.

The last isn't an update per se but more a gradual progression. Over time the pups have been accepted by the goats and sheep. They've been through a lambing/kidding season with flying colors. They understand that new mothers need to be given a wide berth but in turn, the ewes and does have learned that these pups are not a threat to their offspring. Three weeks or so after the last lamb hit the ground, none of the mothers complains about the dogs getting too close. In fact, I'd swear the does leave the dogs "kid-sitting"while they go out to graze as many times I've noticed the does together grazing some distance from the kids who are playing in the same area the dogs are lying.

I have one goat doe who doesn't care for human contact. Her nether regions were looking quite messy from the post-birthing-discharge but I knew that cleaning her would be a stressful event for both of us, so I didn't even try. Yesterday I observed both Kilo and Karina cleaning her off while she stood with tail raised to give them access. Kilo was actually getting chunks between his teeth and tugging quite hard to loosen them and I expected the doe to complain but instead she stood completely still, allowing him to work on her. Certainly this is more trust than she has in me, even after all the time she's been in my care 

Tonight I observed the two of them cleaning a ewe while her lamb stood nearby. For once I had my camera.


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## motdaugrnds

Great update Moboiku. What I like most about those Karakachans cleaning that ewe is the way they are doing it "together" without fighting. Great "pair"!


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## Moboiku

I just got to see LGD in action. It is super windy today and the wind picked up a bucket and started tossing it around. My cairn terrier was not far from it it but his vision is terrible. He could see movement but not knowing what it was, he started barking up a storm. The stock kept doing what they were doing. Then Kilo looked up from where he was, to see what Dizzy was barking at. He also decided this might be a threat (it was much farther away from him) so he started to bark at it as well. All 6 kids immediately stopped what they were doing and galloped over to stand right in front of Kilo. I was amazed to see that they view him as a safe place to be if there is possible danger.

The kids were born here and have never known life without him. The adults did not respond this way but I can't help wondering if this is just the difference between growing up with an LGD to rely on and not.


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## Moboiku

A few days ago, I was doing chicken chores when I heard Kilo give a little woof. He was standing next to something in the pasture. He looked at me to make sure I was paying attention, then looked back at the object and gave another little woof. It was like "Hey, I don't know if this thing is a threat or not. Its actually pretty innocuous looking. But its never been there before and I really think you need to come over here and check it out". So I did. And I found that what he wasn't sure was a threat actually was - a snapping turtle. There were 5 chicks in close proximity (which Kilo was completely ignoring - yay!) And this was a huge turtle at least 12" across. In other words, capable of eating several of my chicks for breakfast. I was SO glad Kilo told me it was there. I got a large bucket, nudged it in with my boot, then dumped it over the fence so it can go down the creek to the other pond down yonder. I am constantly amazed by the instincts of a pup who only just turned 8 months old as well as his calm demeanor around all the animals.

I am now wondering if Kilo was never the culprit when those birds showed up dead. I think it is Karina who reacts to them. I had all the animals turned out to graze a couple of days ago. On days I let the sheep and goats out to graze, I don't let the birds out of the chicken yard, since Kilo and Karina are with the sheep. However a few of my 6-week-old chicks are still small enough to squeeze through and towards the end of the day, they did just that, probably so they could come up to the house to tell me they were hungry. I was doing dishes and saw Karina dash past my kitchen window so I ran out there to find she had one in her mouth. I yelled and she dropped it. Kilo was there but not participating at all. So now I feel bad as when those couple of birds showed up dead I blamed and punished both of them. But I'm now thinking that Karina was solely responsible. She is 6 Â½ months and I think adolescence may be worse with her than with Kilo who is 8 months and has not yet shown any signs of going through it at all.


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## Moboiku

Time for an update. Kilo will be 11 months old next week and Karina turned 9 months last week. The biggest event in their lives lately has been nightly brushing. Karina blew her coat all at once and the result was hundreds of dreadlock-resembling mats close to her skin. They weren't visible but I sure could feel them. Brushing her nightly to remove them has become quite a bonding experience for the two of us. She has been SO tolerant of the brushing - which can't feel very comfortable at all - and will lie quietly for about 30 minutes while I work on her. She signals she's had enough by slowly getting up and walking away  After about 10 days of working on her, she is 98% done - just a few more to go in the rump/tail area and we'll call it a success.

Kilo is more fortunate in that he has not matted. However I have to brush him daily at the moment to remove undercoat to make sure he doesn't. He is not as patient as Karina and is more interested in playing than in lying around getting beauty treatments.

The two of them have become an amazing team. Several times while brushing, one will start to run toward a potential threat barking, and the one I am working on will be up and following faster than I'd have believed possible.

Best of all....we haven't seen a coyote since these guys started patrolling the pasture at night - which is of course the reason they are here.


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## edwardsonfarm

Beautiful dogs! It's great when the teams work out so well


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