# 12 USC 411 and Lawful Money



## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

> 411. Issuance to reserve banks; nature of obligation; redemption
> Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and *for no other purpose*, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. *They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.*


Has anyone attempted to redeem FRNs for lawful money? 

Does this federal code mean that FRNs are somehow different from lawful money?


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## brreitsma (Jan 14, 2003)

LAWFUL money is gold and silver. Paper money is legal tender. There is a difference in common law between lawful and legal.


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

brreitsma said:


> LAWFUL money is gold and silver.


I have heard it said that constitutional money is gold or silver SPECIE. I am afraid I have never seen a definition for "lawful money". Therefore I must suppose that if one requests it then that is what one will be presented with. I am guessing also that, whatever "lawful money" actually is, it does not come with hidden or undisclosed strings attached. 



brreitsma said:


> Paper money is legal tender.


Things that are similar are not the same. A tender is an offer only. 



brreitsma said:


> There is a difference in common law between lawful and legal.


Nonetheless a tender of any flavor is still only a tender whether it be lawful or legal. For a contract it requires acceptance. Without proper consideration (as say, I offer to exchange my IOU for $5 in exchange for your best laying hen) all you have is a quasi- contract, a pseudo-contract or a false-contract. Common law will not enforce such a contract but equity loves these kind of things.

An illegal contract might be where someone hires someone else to perform a hit or to purchase recreational drugs. A legal contract is where one purchases eggs or beef, or several hours of hired man labor.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

I have not any trouble at all. The only thing is you cant get $1 worth. You must get $5 or $100 of specie money at a time.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I really really want to hear of anybody who pulls off exchanging FRN's for gold . . . . . .At the fed "bank".........

ain't gonna happen............


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

Jim-mi said:


> I really really want to hear of anybody who pulls off exchanging FRN's for gold . . . . . .At the fed "bank".........
> 
> ain't gonna happen............


Could you provide a source that indicates that lawful money has anything to do with gold? 

Here is a source that indicates otherwise



Bouviers 1856 Law Dictionary said:


> SPECIE. Metallic money issued by public authority.
> 
> 2. This term is used in contradistinction to paper money, which in some countries is emitted by the government, and is a mere engagement which repre-sents specie. Bank paper in the United States is also called paper money. *Specie is the only constitutional money in this country. *See 4 Monr. 483.


If lawful money were only constitutional money then how could lawful money exist prior to the constitution? Does it not follow then that lawful money has to do with other conditions or attributes?

On the other hand my guess would be that constitutional money (specie) is also lawful money, just a much smaller subset of that category.

What makes money fit into the "lawful" category? Could it be that the subject has less to do with what the money is made of and more with the agreement between two parties that a thing (or action) is lawful and the transaction does not include any third party central bank or government as a party of interest?


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Specie money is a silver or gold coin. You can get it from the federal reserve but the gold coin will cost you more FRN than is printed on the coin.


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

Old Vet said:


> Specie money is a silver or gold coin.


That is the conclusion of 4 Monr 483, a Kentucky court case from the 1830s or 1840s. However the subject is lawful money rather than constitutional money or specie.

If a federal reserve note must be EXCHANGED for lawful money logic dictates that a federal reserve note IS NOT LAWFUL MONEY until exchanged.

AFTER it is exchanged (i.e., lawful money is demanded) then whatever you are presented with is going to be lawful money. The point is what you are handed might just be another federal reserve note but now there is a difference. The difference is that you demanded lawful money.

I am speculating that lawful money is not taxable. If this should prove to be the case then exactly why are you not demanding lawful money from your bank or your employer?


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

palani said:


> I am speculating that lawful money is not taxable. If this should prove to be the case then exactly why are you not demanding lawful money from your bank or your employer?


FRN are not taxable until you get enough of them. Lawful Money is just as taxable as anything else I would not like to be payed in silver or gold unless you can spend them for things you need. You can spend gold and silver but you should transfer them into FRN before you go to the grocery store so that you can get the most out of them.


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

Old Vet said:


> FRN are not taxable until you get enough of them.


 I'd rather not get into the IRS code as it is not decipherable. 12 USC 411 states though that FRNs are issued "for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks" so any taxes paid as a result of using them are commercial bank taxes.




Old Vet said:


> Lawful Money is just as taxable as anything else


 Yet there are no established rules of taxation for lawful money as there are for FRNs.

I can tell you though that Iowa directed their country treasurers in 1866 to keep two sets of books, one book for specie (a form of lawful money and definitely constitutional money) and one book for paper money. The difference between the two forms must have been of interest at that time and should still be of interest now.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

The IRS doesn't care whether if is FRN or legal money(specie).The county may but the IRS doesn't.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

palani said:


> Yet there are no established rules of taxation for lawful money as there are for FRNs.


Although there is IRS code for bartering. So your supposed to claim the "value" of bartered goods(which I would think gold money would fall under)


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

Old Vet said:


> The IRS doesn't care whether if is FRN or legal money(specie).The county may but the IRS doesn't.


I am afraid I don't have a clue as to what the IRS thinks. Mainly because the IRS is a legal fiction and cannot think. I try to limit my domain to what is real rather than what is imaginary.


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

blooba said:


> Although there is IRS code for bartering. So your supposed to claim the "value" of bartered goods(which I would think gold money would fall under)


The value is stamped right on a pre-1933 1 oz U.S. issued gold piece. Says $20 right on it. I presume that is the value of the coin.

But that is not to say a pre-1933 1 oz U.S. issued gold piece is lawful money. It might be constitutional money but so far I have not determined if all constitutional money is lawful money or if all lawful money is constitutional money or if one is a subset of the other.

I am pretty sure that you get to control that which you create and that which you own you get to destroy at your own will. I know that to destroy a FRN is a federal offense. To destroy lawful money is OK as you would actually own this item. The FRN is not anything you can own. All you can do is 1) redeem it for lawful money or 2) exchange it for goods or services, an action in which someone else gets to possess the FRN for a while.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

My understanding is that only sovereigns can demand gold or silver for FRNs.
No US citizen is a sovereign. Very, very few leaders of foreign countries are now sovereign, due to treaty with the UN etc. 
The possible sovereigns who do come up with the FRNs and make lawful demands usually end up having their country invaded by US or other UN troops, their leader(s) jailed somewhere and their nation converted to democracy..... all under one typical guise or another.

US citizens were forbidden, by statute, to trade in gold or silver coin back during the depression. The people were ordered to turn in all of their gold and silver then, and most complied. The US has been a whipped populace for longer than any of us have been alive. Now the PTB are just mopping up the crumbs.


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

Forerunner said:


> My understanding is that only sovereigns can demand gold or silver for FRNs.


Possibly. Again the thread is about lawful money rather than gold or silver.

However, since the topic was brought up, if only sovereigns might possess these metals and since the U.S. is not sovereign then neither can it possess them.


Forerunner said:


> No US citizen is a sovereign. Very, very few leaders of foreign countries are now sovereign, due to treaty with the UN etc.


 Things can only join with similar things. A sovereign entity does not engage in treaties with a non-sovereign. A sovereign entity does not become a citizen period. Citizen is synonymous with subject. A subject does as he is told (a slave).


Forerunner said:


> US citizens were forbidden, by statute, to trade in gold or silver coin back during the depression. The people were ordered to turn in all of their gold and silver then, and most complied. The US has been a whipped populace for longer than any of us have been alive. Now the PTB are just mopping up the crumbs.


 A US citizen is a slave and must obey his orders. 

FRNs are exchanged between banks. If you are holding a FRN you are a bank. Banks are permitted to take bankruptcy. Citizens take bankruptcy all the time. People are permitted to be insolvent (on the surface an alternative to bankruptcy but not at all similar). The difference is that you complete all your contracts.

Bankruptcy laws are federal laws. States are forbidden from interfering with the obligations of contracts. Feds (and their banks) define irresponsible.

All of these things come about because the money is fake. Do you suppose Andrew Jackson could have been right about the banks?


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

Here is what Bouvier (circa 1856) called "money"



> MONEY. Gold, silver, and some other less precious metals, in the progress of civilization and commerce, have become the common standards of value; in order to avoid the delay and inconvenience of regulating their weight and quality whenever passed, the governments of the civilized world have caused them to be manufactured in certain portions, and marked with a Stamp which attests their value; this is called money. 1 Inst. 207; 1 Hale's Hist. 188; 1 Pardess. n. 22; Dom. Lois civ. liv. prel. t. 3, s. 2, n. 6.


Bouvier also has a section labeled "constructions" which are the legal definitions of combinations of words. These are decided by the courts and by stare decisis are precisely how phrases are to be interpreted. 



> Lawful money. 1 Yeates, 349; 1 Dall. 126, 176.


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

So here is what 1 Dallas 126 (Pennsylvania Supreme Court Reports) has to say about lawful money










Interesting that current is synonymous with lawful. This helps because when you take a $20 FRN to a federal reserve bank and demand lawful money they turn around and give you another $20 FRN ... current money and now also lawful money.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

palani said:


> Do you suppose Andrew Jackson could have been right about the banks?


Absolutely, as were all the other watchers on the wall who had their eyes wide open. 

Warburg was known to have said,

"Give me control of a nation's currency, and I care not who makes it's laws."

Debt via fiat currency is the tool that the one world powers ARE using to take America back after the "Ooops" that occurred in the 1700s.
They just about had one world government sewn up back then, until Europe sprung a leak and people started finding freedom here.....

Of course, Caucasians and others have been finding freedom here since before Christ...... up until about the time the Constitution was signed.


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

Forerunner said:


> ... up until about the time the Constitution was signed.


The Articles proved to have more freedom than the constitution so it had to be replaced. The sole purpose of the constitution was to pass foreign debt to the states. 

The money system in use today is nothing but fraud. This did not use to be the case when money was based upon honest weights and measures. When massive debt keeps accumulating with no way to work it out then the currency being used to fuel this system is your substance. The constitutional guarantees on government limits become a breach instead of a promise.

This talk of restoring the constitution might instead be boiled down to a demand to get rid of the fraud in money and the only way to do this is with lawful money.


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## Baylee522 (2 mo ago)

Jim-mi said:


> I really really want to hear of anybody who pulls off exchanging FRN's for gold . . . . . .At the fed "bank".........
> 
> ain't gonna happen............


You can still go to the nearest gold exchange store. They'll sell you some gold and you can still purchase with FRN's. Isn't that an exchange? But I think Lawful Money is Credit.


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