# It really ain't about my gun



## Bob Huntress (Dec 17, 2012)

I don't own a gun. Many of my church are conscientious objectors, and I knew the late Desmond Doss. I am not, however. I simply don't own a gun. I say that the military took all the fun out of them, but at some point I might get one for killing vermin. I don't think that even with a stack of 50 round clips and a fully automatic rifle that I would be able to overthrow the federal government. To any that feel they might hold back the US Army at their compound, I remind you that two former SEALS with chain fed machine guns were killed by a well armed mob in Libya. They were badder than us and they had weapons. They were still overrun. So why do I firmly support the second amendment? I do because I am so firmly against anarchy. If as a society we seek out excuses to overlook the final word of our Constitution we are sliding fast toward anarchy. Even if (especially when) it is the government violating the law, it destroys the credibility of law, itself. There are no shortages of excuses for violating the Constitution. I would naturally ban Muslims from military service, but since I respect law, I will never advocate such, as the same Constitution prohibits such.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Desmond Doss was a man! I like your opinion.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I believe he is saying that without the common man able to bear arms , anarchy issues , and that he is saying he supports the second amendment. even though he owns no arms himself.

is this correct?


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I believe he is saying that without the common man able to bear arms , anarchy issues , and that he is saying he supports the second amendment. even though he owns no arms himself.
> 
> is this correct?


That's the way I took it


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

Black forest said:


> So its anarchy if we choose to protect oursevles and our rights. i don't like your opinion.This is the Home defense/gun forum take your opinion to general chat. all your doing is stiring the pot.





GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I believe he is saying that without the common man able to bear arms , anarchy issues , and that he is saying he supports the second amendment. even though he owns no arms himself.
> 
> is this correct?





Maverick_mg said:


> That's the way I took it


Me too.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

2nd Amendment issues - pro or con - are going to be allowed in this forum, even tho to some they may seem to be "political" topics.


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## Black forest (Dec 1, 2012)

Cabin Fever said:


> 2nd Amendment issues - pro or con - are going to be allowed in this forum, even tho to some they may seem to be "political" topics.


I agree i misread the op. i deleted my post.


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## RonM (Jan 6, 2008)

I have read many times that the armed American hunter with the vast amount of rifles and shotguns is what kept the Japanese from invading our homeland and chose Pearl Harbor instead.With the amount of hunters in Wis, Pa., Mich and Ill. there were too many millions of guns to run up against...


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## Bob Huntress (Dec 17, 2012)

My point expands on the first viable point that every child has ever made, "If mommy, daddy, teachers or whoever is in authority is not able to obey law, why should I". The law that regulates our government is the Constitution. When government refuses to obey the law that governs their actions, as with gun control, they deminish the credibility of law itself in the eyes of the general population. Put a different way, If the Constitution states that government may not infringe on gun ownership or the right to carry, yet government does anyway, a reasonable person will start to feel no compulsion to obey the law. The logical progression of that mindset includes disregard for law itself. At somepoint, if government decides which laws to obey, will not the governed? Why should they pay a tax, if they feel they have a good enough reason, or respect a zoning ordinance? When government can't even respect the rule of law, anarchy will follow. It doesn't matter if it is guns, or corn cobs, if government can not obey the laws that apply to them, the population will reasonable refuse to obey laws they find inconvienent. Lawlessness is anarchy. Government not only preserves law by enforcing law, but also by obeying law! The second amendment is the law. If government doesn't respect law, why would anyone else? Can you think of any good reasons to not pay taxes? 

Anarchy is not the result of a well armed militia in Idaho. It is the result of government's long standing disregard for law. Each time they present some excuse for disobeying the Constitution, they errode the publics confidence in the rule of law. As our leaders, government must lead by example. That is why I say this has absolutely nothing to do with a gun or an ammunition or a mag capacity. It is about whether or not even the government will respect law!


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

prohibition was the turning point in America , when law was seen as a useless pile of BS layed down by a politician who hadn't a clue . more crime has stemmed from telling people the drink that had been the water of civilization untill just 40 years prior was now bad than any other single law.

even the politicians who had approved the law , were still drinking , while at the same time smashing barrels in the streets.

people saw right thru it , and disobeyed the law , once the paradigm shift was made there was no turning them back.


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## Centralilrookie (Jul 12, 2012)

If we allow the constitution to be shredded now,how long till we find ourselves living under a dictator? We need government control not gun control.


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## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

Bob Huntress said:


> When government can't even respect the rule of law, anarchy will follow. It doesn't matter if it is guns, or corn cobs, if government can not obey the laws that apply to them, the population will reasonable refuse to obey laws they find inconvienent. Lawlessness is anarchy. Government not only preserves law by enforcing law, but also by obeying law! The second amendment is the law. If government doesn't respect law, why would anyone else? Can you think of any good reasons to not pay taxes?


Too bad that many in government positions fail to accept this reality.


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## am1too (Dec 30, 2009)

Centralilrookie said:


> If we allow the constitution to be shredded now,how long till we find ourselves living under a dictator? We need government control not gun control.


How much longer do you think it is gonna take? I think bout 20 years or less.


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## braggscowboy (Jan 6, 2004)

Politions want the public to think that they are doing something and they want to blame something or someone, least not themselves. It is not like that they are going to erode the Constitution by limiting the ban on certain weapons, or high capicity clips, but it is again, a start and why do they want to start with the law abiding persons that have protected this country and would do again. I have been a soldier, police officer and school teacher for 30 years and the latter had become the most difficult. The politicans, NRA and most others have the wrong idea to protect a school. There really is not a way in my opinion having seen the size number of doors, the people in and out, students and parents and who knows who. My school was 6th grade through high school and was 1/4 mile long. Added on to as needed. I think the only way to protect a school or students, and I hate to say it, but qualified teachers need to CC, had this been in place hopefuly there would have been a different outcome. I have seen the armed guard idea, always in the wrong place at the wrong time. Most teachers I worked with were women, and when help was needed with students or adults, who did they call? Yea, me! I was lucky enough to have not run up against an armed person other than an knife. Sad to say, but it will be coming, or will need to be. Not all can carry, but only a few will need to with others that will not to have a panic button in room and flashing light outside the room. High fence with gate shack will help some. Wrong ideas on how to protect a school will send a message that "we have everything under control", not true. I have seen measures put in place after each occurance in other schools and we would go to some extreme, after awhile it would go away. Back to normal. Someone is out there thinking or plotting on what can I do to top what happened. I think the media is our worst enemy at times. Done ranting, but I hope our right are protected and we can keep the wrong one out of office.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

am1too said:


> How much longer do you think it is gonna take? I think bout 20 years or less.


Germany went from a democracy in 1932 with Hitler losing the presidential elections with 37% of the vote to a dictatorship and Hitler in control just 2 or 3 years later. When the public is willing to repeatedly re-elect Marion Barry in DC, it doesn't seem all that implausible that the USA could not similarly fail.


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## reluctantpatriot (Mar 9, 2003)

After completing a masters level course on physical security, the truth as I see it is that at best it is a frustration barrier to deter and inhibit threats. The idea is to impede progress to the point where the threat will decide to focus attentions on another target that is easier. No physical security plan, NO plan, will stop 100% of the threats 100% of the time. At best it delays the threat long enough for a protection or threat response team to respond.

Even in a maximum security correctional facility it is possible for someone to be killed. Given that such can happen despite all of the overlapping security layers and types, why would any rational person believe a public school, university or movie theatre would fare better with fewer layers of less intense security?

I am not stating this as a general chat comment. I simply desire to express the logic and reality of physical security. I view my martial arts and even defensive firearm use as deterrents rather than defenses that cannot ever be overcome or overrun. That being said, I prepare with the best defenses that I can and train the best I can to respond to the threats most likely to happen but also train for the unexpected that might happen possibly.

I prefer to use 12 gauge loads of #4 turkey shot as the first three rounds, followed by 00/000 buck as the last two in the tube. That is backed up with more 00/000 buck and also slugs in the shell holders on the stock and receiver. I am also trying out purpose loaded self-defense rounds such as the Winchester PDX1 shot/disc shells.

As for a handgun, I prefer .38 Special and .357 Magnum Winchester PDX1 rounds for self-defense but also keep heavy for caliber hunting rounds available in speed loaders.

As for rifles, I also like the Winchester PDX1 rounds, but also like the variety in Hornady TAP rounds. For home defense I like 5.56mm NATO due to less penetration at the 55 grain levels but keep BTHP 69 grain and heavier match rounds for deeper penetration in reserve.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

reluctantpatriot said:


> After completing a masters level course on physical security, the truth as I see it is that at best it is a frustration barrier to deter and inhibit threats. The idea is to impede progress to the point where the threat will decide to focus attentions on another target that is easier. No physical security plan, NO plan, will stop 100% of the threats 100% of the time. At best it delays the threat long enough for a protection or threat response team to respond.
> 
> Even in a maximum security correctional facility it is possible for someone to be killed. Given that such can happen despite all of the overlapping security layers and types, why would any rational person believe a public school, university or movie theatre would fare better with fewer layers of less intense security?
> 
> I am not stating this as a general chat comment. I simply desire to express the logic and reality of physical security. I view my martial arts and even defensive firearm use as deterrents rather than defenses that cannot ever be overcome or overrun. That being said, I prepare with the best defenses that I can and train the best I can to respond to the threats most likely to happen but also train for the unexpected that might happen possibly.


I haven't taken a masters level security course but i have come to a very similar conclusion

we have talked about this in the terms of home safety and defense , there are deturants , barriers , procedures , and then your action 

deterrents like cameras , motion lights , alarm company sticker in your window 

barriers like strong locks , barred doors and windows 

procedures like pulling back the curtain to check who is at the door before you open it . talking to strangers at the door from an upstairs window or thru a barred screen door that stays locked .

but if all these things fail your last line of defense is you with the proper tools and backup on the way

i would like to see some procedural changes in the schools most now have all but the main door locked for entry form the outside , i would also like to see the main door locked so that all persons coming must be let in , a simple door bell or intercom could be used this way instead of a person walking in and past the office to be told they need a visitor pass the office person would have to let them in and see that they had a visitor pass , i would like to see every door monitored by a camera inside and out and set to notify if it was opened without the use of a key card 

in the corporate world you do not have unescorted visitors in the building , however I can see were this could be a staffing issue in a school where employees are already out numbered 20 to one by students , we 

but in the end none of this is full proof , and the police and security can not be everywhere all the time , and allowing the good people qualified to do so the use of the proper tools is the best fastest response to minimize loss.


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