# cheap desktop



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

I had bought those two netbooks last fall. One with ATOM and one with CELERON, neither very powerful, but both can handle win10 if you clean it up and lock it down. Both limited to 2GB RAM. These are all in one type motherboards with everything soldered down and nothing upgradable.

I have been amazed how popular they have become on ebay. Non functional they now bring $40 and up. Crazy, if you shop around you can get new one on sale for not lot over $100. I would assume they are most attractive to students due to small size and light weight. And maybe others looking for cheapest NEW laptop they can find. 

I was curious how much difference that 4GB or more RAM would make. Found an old ITX (very small) motherboard out of HP 100B all in one setup for $16 shipped. After lot of hassle to keep costs down got 4GB of DDR3 RAM for another $10. Took a while as I kept getting outbid, had to buy a couple unmatched orphan sticks. Like to have tried 8GB RAM (yep it uses upto 8GB desktop DDR3) but the RAM alone would cost around $40 and probably not that useful beyond 4GB considering the low power processor. Its an AMD e-350, about same power and power consumption as the ATOM and CELERON in the netbooks. It was designed to run off laptop style power supply, but I am using my universal battery pack with an adapter that came with the battery pack, its like 18000mAH so could power it for long time if necessary. Unlike the netbooks which are fanless, there is a tiny fan over the processor, but its amazingly quiet. I cant even hear it though I can see it going.

Well got the 4GB RAM today and using it now to post this. Motherboard just setting open on table with stuff hooked up to it. It booted Knoppix live thumb drive fine. It feels faster than the netbooks, but suppose I would need to run both with various tests to actually know performance. Not that important beyond how it feels using it.

Would say this is ok light duty desktop. Way to go IMHO if you dont need laptop and just need cheap minimalist replacement for a too old desktop. You can buy ITX cases, but think I will just make a ventilated wood box for it, cases seem way overpriced to me.

Its a wonder somebody doesnt make laptop using an ITX motherboard. But suppose its not in their interests to make something non-proprietary that people can replace/upgrade themselves.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

You can find laptops really cheap at eBay. I usually look for laptops without a hard drive because I'm going to replace it with a SSD anyway. I would prefer not to pay extra for a hard drive that I'm not going to use. You can find nice laptops (less hard drive) with Core 2 Duo processors for about $50, and laptops with Core i5 & i7 processors for about $100. I don't worry if it doesn't come with AC adapter or battery because they can be sourced inexpensively ($6.50 for AC adapter and $12 for a new battery). I mostly look for HP EliteBook business class computers off corporate lease, since they're really great computers at a low price.

Atom & Celeron processor are crap, and there's really no financial incentive to not look for i5 & i7 processor laptops. I got my 2nd generation i7 processor laptop for $90 (less hard drive). At that price for an i7, why would I fool with an Atom processor?

2GB of memory isn't enough for Windows today. You really need 4GB. My actual usage usually runs in the 2.5-3.0GB range, but 4GB is enough for anyone but the most advanced of power users. There's nothing wrong with having 8GB. I use two 4GB PC3-10600 modules, that I can usually source for $15 each. Having the extra memory doesn't make the machine run any faster, but for only $15 it's nice to have it available.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

The devil is in the details and what you want from your computer. I have owned and played with the two netbooks for few months now. I think they are ok if you can get one that works for $30, I wouldnt give more than that. Stupid people (IMHO) that give $200 for one but sure thats throw away pocket change for lot people anymore. Their only really big advantage is their very thin small size (like a small hardback school library book back in olden days). AND they can go 6 to 12 hour on ONE battery charge depending how you use them and screen brightness. Lets see your i-7 do that.... LOL

They arent anything to write home about speedwise. And yes they do run win10 ok, with only 2GB RAM. IF you trim the fat off win10 and then lock win10 down to where its not phoning home and trying to serve multiple masters in background and not playing the marketing game M$ wants to play with the updates. These netbooks simply dont have the horsepower to do all the bells and whistles marketing that M$ wants win10 to do automagically.

No its not best choice for your only computer if you are just wanting a desktop substitute where weight and size and battery charge isnt a concern. though you can connect it to hdmi tv or even an old desktop monitor with a cheap converter cable so you arent squinting at tiny screen. Bluetooth works on the Lenovo, never been able to get it working on the Acer. Its not a gaming computer. It would be stupid slow for editing film. But hey if you just want to do some surfing, email, use light weight word processor program, play solitaire, then its fine. It even streams youtube ok if you have fairly fast connection.

I much prefer the netbooks over a tablet. I dont get the attractiveness of tablets or touch screens. But whatever, each to their own. 

Now having played a bit with the ITX AMD board. If I didnt need to cart it around in a backpack or such, it would be fine as light duty workstation. Its about same level of speed as the latest ATOM and Celeron, but it does give option of lot more RAM and you can connect two SATA drives if you want to. Though honest, I have not noticed whole lot difference in speed booting drive from SATA than USB2. A usb booted SSD (or even thumb drive) is pretty fast. You cant by way boot from USB3 currently. Not sure why, imagine as USB2 disappears, they will redesign the bios to boot from USB3.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

If you can get two 4GB sticks of DDR3 desktop for total of $30, you are doing well. I followed several pair of them on ebay and it was usually around $40 to $50. I was curious what 8GB RAM would do for the motherboard, but not $50 worth of curious. $10 for two 2GB sticks seemed lot better bargain. That kept total cost down to $26 total.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

HermitJohn said:


> No its not best choice for your only computer if you are just wanting a desktop substitute where weight and size and battery charge isnt a concern.


To replace a desktop you'll want at least a 15" laptop. That's what I have. Better yet, get a 17" laptop.

For a 15.6" laptop search ebay for the HP 8560p. You can sometimes find them for under $100. Those come with either an i5 or i7 processor (2nd generation), so you'll want to try to find a deal in an i7 model.

For a 17" laptop search eBay for the HP 8740w. Again, they come with i5 & i7 (1st generation). You can get 2nd & 3rd generation processors with the HP 8760w and 8770w models respectively, but they are kind of pricey right now. For maximum economy look for an HP 8740w with a 1st generation i7 for around $100.

Depending on how you work you might use your laptop as a docked system. That will provide you with sockets for a standard monitor, keyboard & mouse. The advantage is that when you travel you can pull your laptop from the docking station and take it with you. That way you travel with exactly the same computer you use at home. Docking stations for HP business class laptops (like those suggested above) usually sell at eBay for about $15.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

HermitJohn said:


> If you can get two 4GB sticks of DDR3 desktop for total of $30, you are doing well. I followed several pair of them on ebay and it was usually around $40 to $50. I was curious what 8GB RAM would do for the motherboard, but not $50 worth of curious. $10 for two 2GB sticks seemed lot better bargain. That kept total cost down to $26 total.


OK, more like $15 with $5 shipping, or $20 total.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/112360551118


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

That is 204 pin laptop memory, but yea, thats a good enough price. I was shopping for 240 pin desktop memory. You would think it would be cheaper, but it isnt. And you do have to watch out and make sure its unbuffered, unregistered desktop memory, not server memory. Server memory is by far cheapest. Oh there are adapters to use laptop memory in a desktop, but makes it stick up higher and adds to the cost. Ok if you already own the laptop memory and want to use it in a desktop I guess.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

HermitJohn said:


> That is 204 pin laptop memory, but yea, thats a good enough price. I was shopping for 240 pin desktop memory. You would think it would be cheaper, but it isnt. And you do have to watch out and make sure its unbuffered, unregistered desktop memory, not server memory. Server memory is by far cheapest. Oh there are adapters to use laptop memory in a desktop, but makes it stick up higher and adds to the cost. Ok if you already own the laptop memory and want to use it in a desktop I guess.


I used to have only desktop computers because they were a lot less expensive that laptops. Today laptops are not in such high demand as they used to be, since many light laptop users have gone to using tablets and cell phones for access to email and Facebook, The drop in demand has made laptops much less expensive, particularly used laptops.

That's what makes HP business laptops such a great deal. With less of a market for laptops, the market for off-lease business laptops has become depressed. But businesses are still leasing laptops. Businesses aren't going to go to tablets, so off-lease business laptops will continue to become available at pretty much the same volume they always have.

I can understand a heavy gamer wanting a desktop. They make gaming laptops, but you're pretty much locked in with the video adapter that came with the laptop. Desktops can be upgraded much more easily, keeping the system current without the need to buy a new system. But I'm not a gamer. I don't have a compelling reason to upgrade very often.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

I noticed there arent many full size desktops on used market anymore. Some of the weird little proprietary boxes you cant upgrade, but thats usually it. You want something you can upgrade, you pretty much have to build one from scratch from parts.

I agree, used laptops are the sweet spot on used market, especially if you dont care about weight or battery life. Some of those big laptops kinda like lugging around a portable electric typewriter. But laptops also tend to be pretty hard to upgrade. If you are lucky, you might be able to upgrade RAM a bit or use SSD instead of a hard drive. But thats about it. 

It is interesting time where hardware doesnt get that outdated nearly as fast, least for workstation type uses. Meaning mundane things. High end gaming stuff always pushing envelope.... Lot people just get pushed to upgrade cause their software is no longer supported. And lot people just like to talk themselves into buying new and shiny as an ego boost. Like car and furniture and other things after consumerist society took over.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

There is little difference between a desktop and laptop now a days. Most desktop motherboards are all in one and seldom need any thing else to work. Aside from some high end graphics cards the specs are pretty much the same. With TB drives storage isn't an issue. You can always drop an external monitor on a laptop so monitor size isnt an issue. Most desktop MB only have 2 or 4 memory slots, same for many laptops. As for upgrades on a MB, there is little to upgrade on most desktops. You can replace the Motherboard, but thats not really an upgrade. Little uses I/O slots, memory and disk can be upgraded just like a laptop.

If you picking a laptop pick a business grade laptop over a consumer grade. ON the used market the prices are similar and you usually get a better laptop with the off lease business model than some ragged out home machines.

Since most people done use laptops as a mobile device they use it as a small desktop. The business class often gives you an option of a docking station. Dock it when home and then you can still have a portable unit if needed. 

My HP laptop has a 15 inch screen, 16gb ram and TB drive. WHen docked it addes 2 24inch monitors, wireless keyboard and mouse and second TB drive along with plenty of USB ports for IO.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Gary in ohio said:


> If you picking a laptop pick a business grade laptop over a consumer grade. ON the used market the prices are similar and you usually get a better laptop with the off lease business model than some ragged out home machines.


I tried to make that point around here a couple of times, but I saw no indications that I got through to anyone. Off-lease business laptops are a terrific resource and an incredible bargain. I'll try to make that point again now.

Business laptop are not normally sold new at retail stores. In the first place they're priced way out of the retail price range. A typical MSRP of a business laptop is about $3,000. In truth, few business-class laptops are sold outright. More often they're leased directly to corporate customers. Corporations normally keep them for 2 to 3 years, when they're traded-in for newer models. Hard drives are removed from the laptops by the corporation IT department for security. Laptops are usually strapped to a pallet and sold at asset recovery auctions for pennies on the dollar. More often that not, the laptops are sold without AC adapters. Those laptops eventually find their way to eBay, where they're liquidated for whatever they'll bring.

3 year old business laptops are still contemporary and have a lot of life left in them. By the time they hit the market there are plenty of spare parts available, and manufacturers are making new aftermarket battery packs and AC adapters at low prices (typically $12 for batteries, and $7 for AC adapters).

So what makes a business class laptop different from retail laptops? While its difficult to put a value on it, they're much better made. That's mostly because they're designed for parts that are made with little regard to cost. They're made to last, and is shows. But there are other specific differences.

1. Longer life battery options. Corporate customers travel with their laptops, so they want plenty of battery for long flights. They also bring laptops into meetings, both to have information available to share and to take notes. It wouldn't do for a dozen people in a meeting trying to find an outlet for their laptops. Rather than the 3 hour batteries that normally come with retail laptops, business laptops have options for 6 and even 12 hour batteries.
2. LCD panels on business laptops are usually matte finish, so they don't have the glare problems that the glossy LCD panels on retail computer have.
3. Business laptop keyboards usually have positive tactile feedback when typing, while retail laptops normally have no feedback at all.
4. Business laptops often have biometric security devices, such as fingerprint readers, to keep laptop contents secure.
5. It used to be that business laptops didn't include a webcam. The given reason was that IT departments recommended against webcams for security reasons, fearing that a hacker might gain access to a laptop's webcam to spy on an office to steal corporate secrets. That seems to have gone by the wayside, as corporate IT managers are now seeing value in video conferencing. It's easy to find used business laptops with webcams today.
6. Business laptops usually have better protected exteriors than retail laptops, often even making laptop shells out of metal. 
7. Business laptops are often configured with enhanced video port capabilities, with the idea of making video presentations with applications like PowerPoint in mind.
8. Since business laptops weren't designed with maximum economy in mind, you can find newer and more powerful processors and mainboard chipsets than retail laptops manufactured at around the same time. That allows you to find high performance laptops at a low price.

Really, about the only thing you won't find on a business laptop is a high end graphics adapter for gaming. If that's what you need then take a look at an Alienware laptop. Graphic adapters in business laptops are aimed at high resolution still graphics, not animated gaming graphics.

When I'm looking for a newer laptop I always look for a used HP business laptop. My current laptop is a i7 (2ng gen) processor laptop I got about 6 months ago for $90. It's a model HP 8560p. It's been a great machine for me.

HP made 17" business laptops until a few years ago. You can still find used HP business 17" laptops with the i7 processors of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd generations (HP models 8740w, 8760w and 8770w respectively). If you're looking for a newer processor in a 17" laptop you'll have to go with the HP Envy retail models.

But HP business laptops with screen sizes 15.6", 14", and even ultraportable 11" & 12" models are hitting the used market in large volumes. Take advantage of it.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Thanks for the rundown on lap tops Nevada, I'm looking to replace this desktop computer before it pukes. Right now it doesn't always talk to the internet, sometimes it just doesn't start up right, and the monitor is goofy at times. Mainly surfing the internet and book work is what I use one for.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

@Allen W While lappies are fairly mainstream their costs tend to be a tad higher than maybe they ought to be for a couple of simple reasons, one being portability and that means batteries (Lithium which adds to cost) and of course having a built in screen + keyboard.

I have a Heavy Gaming Station which i rarely ever use anymore 8 core, 4ghz, 32GB Ram and heavy NVidia graphics the beast pulls between 600-800w + screen and as I have entered Power Frugal mode and offgrid little point in using it (I pretty much gave up gaming of any sort). I've had Dell, HP & other patops and they have all served well for yrs BUT reality kicked in with going off-grid.

I would suggest if you do NOT need portability (many people don't) then consider a NUC type PC. I now use am HP EliteDesk 800 Small Form Factor PC which has all the features of high end lappies + built in, very low power usage compared to a full on Desktop and even lower than a laptop on average. There is NO compromise of performance and can support large capacity drives, lots of RAM and have Bluetooth, wireless wifi, Ethernet etc... When I bought mine I spent a total of $600 and upped the RAM to suit my needs... as I use my LG 47" LED TV as a screen and attached a DAS Keyboard with USB ports in it (acts as a hub) I get more ports to use as needed. The only caveat is the fact that Video is not upgradeable but they aren't upgradable in laptops either and I must admit the Intel HD Graphics perform well. I watch all my TV / Movies etc through the Computer (streamed, DVD or stored on local drive) with no issues at all... Heck, just for fun I even tried some of the extremely intense VR Simulation stuff I used to be heavy into developing and it all worked wonderfully too (quite unexpected as they are system intense).

REF to HP EliteDesk series: http://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/business-solutions/elitedesk-800-mini

There are many brands / marks out there from HP, Intel, Asus and others and generally around the same price point.

Here is the SPECCY data about my system:
Operating System Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
CPU Intel Core i7 6700T @ 2.80GHz 38 °C Skylake 14nm Technology
RAM 16.0GB Dual-Channel Unknown @ 1063MHz (15-15-15-36)
Motherboard HP 8055 (U3E1)
Graphics
47LV4400 ([email protected])
Intel HD Graphics 530 (HP)
Storage
931GB Hitachi HGST HTS721010A9E630 (SATA) 33 °C
1862GB Western Digital WD My Passport 0820 USB Device (USB (SATA)) 33 °C
Optical Drives
HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GP65NS60 USB Device
Audio
Intel Display Audio

BTW: I run the LG TV, Computer, Sat Modem (25w) off a UPS and with full on usage I'm only using 91 Watts... That's a win for OffGrid / Low Power usage. Sure a Lappie may use a bit less on it''s own but add the Web/Sat Modem and Large Screen and you'll be running 150W+ easy.

Never had an issue with it, HP Support Software does what it is supposed to and installs appropriate updates if/when needed and the warranty period is longer due to the nature of the beast. Just something to consider.


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