# Battery question?



## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

the starting battery on the generator, 

I have had the generator for about 25 years, now, it is a manual start manual transfer switch, 

OK the last three batteries have blown up on this generator when attempting to start it, 

I do at lest a quarterly startup, and let it run for 30 Min's or so, and check it out, 

OK I know or think I know why they blew up, the boiled the water out below the plates and apparently a spark in side blew the oxygen and hygern up.

now I had the same automatic trickle charger on the unit for the first two batteries, 
assuming the fault was the trickle charger failing to shut down,
so I replace it with a small cube unit called a battery maintainer,

well this last battery blew yesterday when attempting to test the generator.

~~~~~~~

now when I first built the generator, when ever I needed a battery in some thing I would put the new on the generator and the generator in a car or truck, that needed it, 
well over the years there is really is not what I call a universal battery any more some GM side style and some ford top posts etc, 

so in recent years I have been taking my combine harvester battery off and using it on the generator, some have been not the best but since there larger and on a trickle charger they always start the generator, easily.

is it just the battery not being that great and not ever achieving charge and boiling out or have batteries changed in the last 5 years? 

I am thinking now that there was nothing wrong with the first automatic trickle charger, both are under 2 amps, 

why did I not have this problem the first 20 years and in the last five years he last three batterers have boiled out and blew up at some time,

One was a walmart battery ford type, and the other were heavy duty lager machinery batteries, and when put on the water was checked and battery charged up with commercial charger prior the putting on the generator, 

(OK I know check the water before starting the generator may need to be on the check list),

maybe I need to dump the trickle charger, but it is nice to have fully charged battery. batteries do discharge when not used,

any Ideas, what is our sugestions?


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Have you checked the voltage of the trickle charger? It should max out under 13.8v. 13.6 would be better to keep from slowly evaporating the batteries.

Has anything changed that the area the battery is in is warmer now? Lose a tree that shaded it? New AC unit that is blowing hot air on it?

WWW


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

no I can not say I have checked the charger, but since I replaced the charger with new I did not think of replacing it, usually the light on the charger would only stay on for a few seconds and when I in the generator shed never did see it come on by it self, unless I wiggled the clips, 

Now I know this last battery was not very good, and my guess is that it would need frequent recharging, thus boiling out the water,

the one before was not bad or good, about 3 years old off the combine, took off the generator to start the combine and it blew up, the top of the battery on that one ended up behind the machine,

ad then a few years before that was the walmat battery that most likely not the best shape, guessing 4 or 5 years old, it as holding a charge adequately, think it came out of my sons car after he took the under carriage off the car by hitting a bank of dirt, that battery covered me with acid and blew plastic and broke the battery in half, (now the cells that were intact were full on that battery).

since all the batteries were blown apart (it is my guess the water was below the plates),

but blew when I hit the starter button, 


the location of the generator has been the same since 99, in its own shed, before it was in two different buildings, so the last 13-14 years no changes, the building is block with filled concrete cores re-bar, and a concrete roof that is highly reinforced with re-bar, two doors and a window for ventilation, 

the building has no heat, 

picture of generator below,


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## Ky-Jeeper (Sep 5, 2010)

tell me about your genie. Engine, kw, ect.


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

I bought the generator used from the Katolight corporation, about 30 years ago, it is 30 kw three phase, or a 20 kw single phase 12 wire alternator, (can be configured to most any voltage that one can find in the USA,) it was original in an insulation truck and they blew the engine on it, and traded for another unit, the company did not want to replace the engine so I bought it cheap, they shipped it to me, generator without engine,
currently the unit is set for 240 delta volt three phase power, as that is what feeds the farm. 

I had a Massey 82 combine with a rebuilt 230 cu in industrial Chrysler engine on it, I ended up having to make my own bell housing for it, (having the old bell housing from the combine and the one the generator had on it, I constructed my own, it is a single bearing generator so the generator uses the engine for support on one side,

original a gas engine, I now have conversion kit on it for propane, but can still run on gasoline, if needed, (the little blue tank is for a short run on gasoline) I have a line that goes out side so I can put in to a drum for fuel, 

I have transfer switch so I can use the small 4000 kw, if wanted, or plug in the generator off the welding truck, 

there is a manual transfer switch on the power distribution pole and it can feed the entire farm 

the radiator set us was similar to what the combine had, and I reused it, the second reason (I was told and think it is some what true) if the engine does not lose water it will not be damaged, if over heated. the set up is such that the radiator could nearly be dry and the engine would be the last to lose water or coolant,

it has a block heater that is ran by a thermostat, so when very cold the block has some heat, 

and I did have a trickle charger on it (most likely the cause of my battery problems),

there is a 12 volt light that powered by the battery, that can be switch on for lighting the control panel and checking oil and such if power is out,


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

farminghandyman

Have you installed a set of Murphy gauges on the engine?

http://www.pittauto.com/default.aspx?page=item detail&itemcode=MUR+30700001


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Suggest you get a LCD voltage monitor (available flea-bay--- inexpensive) and leave it hooked up all the time . .so you can monitor the start battery voltage ---all the time---on trickle mode . .on starting . . .on gen running..
You need this info to help determine a problem.........
Where / when very large voltage highs---lows... . . even during starting----extreme lows . . . starter problems ??????? . . . ..malfunctioning **trickle ** charger ?? . . . . .malfunctioning gen charging system--way over cooking the battery ?? 

and finally to admit (from what --you-- posted) that some of your 3rd and 4th hand batteries are half a step up from junk.

With that much generator, in a heart beat I'd pop the 60 bucks and have a new battery......


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

I'd say one of the plate interconnects inside of the battery failed and caused an arc under load. They just don't make batteries like they used to..

You could get one of these, leave the trickle charger on it and never worry about battery issues again..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultracapaci...79759?pt=Battery_Chargers&hash=item460f1279af

Just check the output voltage of your trickle charger with a volt meter and make sure it doesn't put out more than 17 volts open circuit. (Not connected to a battery) The battery charging system of the generator will replace the power used for the starting of the engine..

You could get real fancy and replace the trickle charger with a small solar panel that has an open circuit voltage less than 17 volts..


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

No I do not have a set of Murphy gages on the unit, I do have the propane switch wired through a oil pressure Gauge, and if the oil pressure drops to a lower pressure it will cut the propane to the carburetor, (to start one needs to press the by pass switch or crank until oil pressure builds, 

and currently there is no over heat protection, 


my purpose for the generator is not to let it run 24/7 if a power outage occurs,
but when I got it, I had very few back up systems or emergency systems so I figured if I had a generator, I could take care of most emergency needs via generator, and I wanted some thing that would run my most heavily powered equipment, which is or was my welder, which needed at least 50 amp circuit, so part of the desire to have the size I have, since the purchase of it many things have changed and the place it fills is now more convenience than potential need,

For the most part It will run on need not for just having some light at night, most likely a few hr for charging the freezers and refrigerators, in the morning and in the evening, and I do have a smaller unit that I may use for that, 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
there are times that I wished I could have spent the money on a new battery, but in my life there have been many a time when the ends did not meet, and having a new battery on the generator, when I had a battery that was capable of starting it was available. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

the (LCD) meter sounds like a good idea, even if I have it switched, (really no need to have it working when I am not in the building or can see it).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

never hear of a capacitor battery, thanks for the link,

I have crank started the engine and the crank is setting by the generator if it is needed, 

I figured I can always borrow a battery from one of the trucks, so some times I have wondered if having a batter on it at is necessary, but makes testing and maintenance runs easier.

###############

for example blowing the battery was just a learning experience and inconvenience, the other day, 

but if it would have been an emergency, and blew the battery, and need to clean up the acid, and find another battery, would not have bee a good day, so test days are necessary, IMO.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I'm interested in differences between brands of lead acid batteries. Which brand or brands failed? Rather than using a battery maintainer, buy one of the Battery Minder units. The smallest should do a good job plus extend the life of the battery.


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

the two were tractor type batteries sold under the interstate name, and the other was a walmat brand,

first I am not saying either brand was poor or inferior, I have no way to determine that, 
as said they all were older (I know the last one was the oldest and not holding charge that long) and my guess is that they had sulfated enough that full charge could no longer be reached, (yes I had checked the water level when first putting them on the generator, 

one of the tractor batteries had been used on the combine and taken off the combine when not in use on the generator, and was at least 4 years old when I took off the generator and to on the combine to use it and blew trying to start the combine, after running the battery down and using the commercial charger on it once, 

the walmart battery I think was out of a used car my son was going to derby or crush, and was on the generator for a few years, when I went in to start and it blew the top off. 

Like said I do not know if any was the fault of the batteries them selfs,

I no longer have the first charger I was using. This is the second charger I used on the last battery, http://www.toolking.com/solar-sol1002-1-5-amp-12v-automatic-on-board-battery-charger/ and have not taken or found time to check the voltage on the charger since I started this post.


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## Dixiechick (Jun 1, 2013)

K... I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here.. I agree with the fact that you need to know the information concerning whether or not your battery is being overcharged or not. Personally.. I would probably consider using a small 10 to 15 amp charge controller used for solar panels in conjunction with your trickle charger... They are designed to keep from overcharging and usually shut off somewhere around 14-14.4 volts. Since you are not using the generator but once in a blue moon.. it might not be a bad idea to put your charger on a timer. That way it is only charging an hour or two a day. Something I noticed in your picture. The battery is sitting on a wooden block.. that's all fine and dandy.. but there will be times there is more humidity or the block gets damp... we all know sitting batteries on the ground discharges them.. so damp wood is as good as ground. Might not be a bad idea to put a sheet of rubber, maybe belting or even a few layers of inner-tube between the battery and the block. As for checking the voltage - if nothing else you can always stop in once in a while and use a volt/ohm meter. Don't know if this help. Best of luck.


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

Dixiechick said:


> K... I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here.. I agree with the fact that you need to know the information concerning whether or not your battery is being overcharged or not.


Agree



> Personally.. solar panels in conjunction with your trickle charger...


 thought about that idea



> it might not be a bad idea to put your charger on a timer


. that has crossed my mind as well.



> Something I noticed in your picture. The battery is sitting on a wooden block.. that's all fine and dandy.. but there will be times there is more humidity or the block gets damp... we all know sitting batteries on the ground discharges them.. so damp wood is as good as ground.


yes I have head this from others as well, but I do not think it still holds true with the newer plastic cases,

a dirty top will discharge a battery, take a volt meter and put on one terminal and run the other over the top and it will read some times a lot of voltage,

some info on battery discharge from interstate battery
http://www.thebatteryterminal.com/TechTalk_Batteries_on_Concrete.htm


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I'm wondering is using old batteries isn't a big part of your problem... 

You're using batteries that have been shaken and vibrated around quite a bit... then asking it to start a load bigger than they are used to... 

I've had a couple old batteries blow up on me by shorting inside... most of them had been in applications where they got a lot of vibration...


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Did you see corrosion issues wih the batteries including seeing electrolyte levels drop?


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

simi-steading said:


> I'm wondering is using old batteries isn't a big part of your problem...
> 
> You're using batteries that have been shaken and vibrated around quite a bit... then asking it to start a load bigger than they are used to...
> 
> I've had a couple old batteries blow up on me by shorting inside... most of them had been in applications where they got a lot of vibration...


I think the older batteries were a contributing factor, 
the load that the starter on the generator normally would have been less than the application they had been on, the engine is only 230 cu inch,

and possibly if they were partly sulfated, they may not have been able to take a "full" charge. thus over charging of them.


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

Darren said:


> Did you see corrosion issues with the batteries including seeing electrolyte levels drop?


external corrosion was not evident, 

I can not say on the electrolyte levels as, I checked them when I installed, them on the generator, 

but after they blew there was not much battery left to check levels in, 

so I really do not know if they were low or not, (I do not see how the could have sparked to blow if they were not low, but I can not say with proof they were low or not)


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Off gassing will show up as corrosion and a drop in electrolyte levels. That means hydrogen for the explosion.


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