# 90,000 'Zero-Air-Pollution' cars already on the roads



## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

http://home.businesswire.com/portal...d=news_view&newsId=20060503005399&newsLang=en



> SANTA ROSA, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--May 3, 2006--Automotive pioneer ZAP (NYSE Arca:ZP) (PCX:ZP) announced today the start of regular production for its all-electric XEBRA 'City-Car' and is organizing test-drive events in Santa Rosa, California for dealers, fleet managers and the general public.
> 
> 
> ZAP is holding test drive events by appointment for its dealers and large fleet managers initially and has scheduled a public test drive event on May 13. To participate in a ZAP test-drive event for the all-electric XEBRA City Car, sign up by visiting the ZAP Website at http://www.zapworld.com.
> ...


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

I've always been bothered by the 'zero emmissions' claim of an electric car.

Nuke, coal, propane, or hydro needs to be used to make the electricity, & distributing electric over the transmission lines is only 33% efficient.....

Kinda just puts the pollution & issues in someone else's back yard.

Certainly electric is a cool concept, & can take it's place used in road vehicles. Not opposed to the idea. Sure we can all have our own windmill or photovoltac panels 'someday', but they are high-cost options too.

Don't know that I buy the current sales pitch. Gasoline is actually still the most net energy efficient means of propelling vehicles. That is, of course, why we still use them. 

--->Paul


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

ET1 SS

Your title is very misleading as not all cars produced by them are "zero air polution " cars.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

wy_white_wolf said:


> ET1 SS
> 
> Your title is very misleading as not all cars produced by them are "zero air polution " cars.


Okay,

From the way that I read their material:



> ZAP, Zero Air Pollution(r) ... since 1994, delivering over 90,000 vehicles to consumers in more than 75 countries


I suppose that your right,

To be correct I should have said: 
"90,000 'Zero Air Pollution(r)' cars already on the roads"



thank you for catching that one.



I heard yesterday 'on the radio' folks complaining about the new models coming out of Ford, and GM; and asking why they are still cranking out these gas burning SUVs, rather than shifting focus to 'alt. Fuels' or electric or high-efficiency, etc.

I struck me that Joe Blow on the street is not aware at all that there are companies that have been trying, and that are producing other stuff [ie, electric, and alt. fuels, and high-efficiency vehicles].


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

The local utility here is supplied by a very large coal generator. Yup its *clean* on this end (of the outlet) but its typical coal dirty at the other end. And yes Joe blow doesn't think about that.

Still waiting for a unit that I can get my 6.2' bod into and haul a sheet of plywood and toolboxes.
I guess those mini mini's have a place some where---not shure where.


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## Janon (Aug 25, 2002)

Notice that the Smart car for the U.S. will have a 3 cyl gas engine as opposed to the 3 cyl diesel everywhere else on the planet.

I'm also confused as to why the N.A. auto makers do not make any small efficient gas/diesel vehicles - the only real answer is money - no money in low priced vehicles. Enviro-regs probably have lots of influence on why there are no small diesels (although VW?). Perhaps things will change in the future.

cheers,


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I have also been following 'Obvio' [the Brazilian auto-manufacturer] after 9 years of making alcohol autos they have only been able to export through-out South America. And still US legislation will not allow them to import their ethanol into the US. And they are only now allowing Obvio to import their alcohol-vehicles.

Brazil's policy concerning diesel is to only allow commercial trucking to burn diesel, no personal autos can run on diesel. So while other nation's manufacturers may in fact make diesel autos, Brazil will not.

It is their policy to not encourage further use of fossil fuels, outside of commercial trucking. In the hopes that through continued research and development they will eventually be able to produce alcohol-engines for trucking.

With all the forewarning that the world has gotten about the need to do something, it is nice to see that someone somewhere has actually decided to start developing alternative fuel vehicles. Unlike: ford, Chevy, GM, Honda, Toyota,


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

The head scratcher question;
Why is it that Yanmar and VW can make really good small diesels and all the big guys here can't/don't...............???


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## WanderingOak (Jul 12, 2004)

Jim-mi said:


> The head scratcher question;
> Why is it that Yanmar and VW can make really good small diesels and all the big guys here can't/don't...............???


Because we burn the 'wrong' diesel fuel, and can't meet EPA regulations. From what I understand, even VW can't meet EPA regs with their diesels running American fuel, which is why they can not be sold new in CA and NY. What we need to do is switch over to unsulphured diesel the way we switched over to unleaded back in the '70s. It may be a hassle at first, but in the long run, I think it will be worth it.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

WanderingOak said:


> Because we burn the 'wrong' diesel fuel,


As I understand it, the E.U. shifted to 'unsulphured diesel' a few years back and now they dont have anything to do with our diesel.


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## WanderingOak (Jul 12, 2004)

ET1 SS said:


> As I understand it, the E.U. shifted to 'unsulphured diesel' a few years back and now they dont have anything to do with our diesel.


Precicely. In the EU, there are quite a few cars running small diesels. Those cars couldn't begin to pass smog running on American diesel fuel. Do you know if Canada is running sulphured diesel? I know they have Smart cars up there because I have seen some in the US with Ontario plates. I wonder if they are gas or diesel powered?


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

We are supposed to change over to low sulpher diesel this fall. Won't really change much right away as the European diesels will still not pass our emmission standards. 

The change over is one of the reasons that VW will not be producing a diesel for the U.S. next year. VW had a good thing going with the only small diesel that could pass in at least in 48 states. Now the market will be opened up to other manufactures but the EU diesels are still going to need at least some fine tuning.


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## WanderingOak (Jul 12, 2004)

wy_white_wolf said:


> We are supposed to change over to low sulpher diesel this fall. Won't really change much right away as the European diesels will still not pass our emmission standards.
> 
> The change over is one of the reasons that VW will not be producing a diesel for the U.S. next year. VW had a good thing going with the only small diesel that could pass in at least in 48 states. Now the market will be opened up to other manufactures but the EU diesels are still going to need at least some fine tuning.


Hunh. I was under the impression that the EU had stricter emissions standards than we do. That could be Green propaganda, I dunno.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

WanderingOak said:


> Hunh. I was under the impression that the EU had stricter emissions standards than we do. That could be Green propaganda, I dunno.


They did, But there's are geared more towards controlling the quality of fuel used instead of controls in the car.


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## WanderingOak (Jul 12, 2004)

wy_white_wolf said:


> They did, But there's are geared more towards controlling the quality of fuel used instead of controls in the car.


I wonder how big a hassle it would be to get our fuel up to European standards?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

When I buy diesel for my tractor the pumps are labled *high* sulphur for off road. But the road diesel says *low* sulphor.
wonder what the diff is to the EU ... ?

Now if I can find me a VW Passat or Jetta diesel..........


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Jim-mi said:


> When I buy diesel for my tractor the pumps are labled *high* sulphur for off road. But the road diesel says *low* sulphor.
> wonder what the diff is to the EU ... ?
> 
> Now if I can find me a VW Passat or Jetta diesel..........


Yep,thats the car to have,or an old MB diesel.

BooBoo


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## caballoviejo (Sep 6, 2004)

WanderingOak said:


> I wonder how big a hassle it would be to get our fuel up to European standards?



Yet another specialty fuel to produce that will require new refining equipment.
The price for no sulphur diesel will be greater and everyone will complain about why it costs more and why are the oil companies ripping us off.


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## WanderingOak (Jul 12, 2004)

caballoviejo said:


> Yet another specialty fuel to produce that will require new refining equipment.
> The price for no sulphur diesel will be greater and everyone will complain about why it costs more and why are the oil companies ripping us off.


We did the same thing 30 years ago with unleaded gasoline, and now it's everywhere.


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## caballoviejo (Sep 6, 2004)

WanderingOak said:


> We did the same thing 30 years ago with unleaded gasoline, and now it's everywhere.


That's a different thing. You had leaded production and added unleaded production. Nowdays we're talking about different laws in different states where you have several "tailor-made" micro blends. California gas vs. New York gas vs. Nebraska gas, and so on.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

caballoviejo said:


> That's a different thing. You had leaded production and added unleaded production. Nowdays we're talking about different laws in different states where you have several "tailor-made" micro blends. California gas vs. New York gas vs. Nebraska gas, and so on.


I dont follow ???

We had ethel and regular [both had lead added to them].

Then we had leaded regular and we had unleaded.

Then we had un-leaded at various octane ratings.

And now we have un-leaded with much octanes and 10% alcohol.


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## caballoviejo (Sep 6, 2004)

ETSS,

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/fuel/gasoline.html

Background: How Fuel Types Evolved 

Since the passage of the Clean Air Act Amendments in 1990, a growing number of distinct types of gasoline have entered the system. Prior to that time, gasoline types fell into three grades (regular, midgrade, and premium) and volatility distinctions between gasolines sold in the North and those sold in the South. Also, gasolineâs tendency to evaporate, as measured by Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP), shifted between summer and winter seasons for driveability and control over evaporative emissions that lead to ozone pollution. Apart from some local adjustments that were sometimes needed (e.g. for altitude or extreme desert conditions), few distinct types of gasoline were being used. 

The Clean Air Act Amendments created oxygenated gasoline and reformulated gasoline (RFG) blends, moving the system to three formulations of gasoline (conventional, oxygenated and reformulated), each of which is available in three grades, with volatility distinctions between Northern/Southern and summer/winter blends. 

When the RFG program first began in 1995, concerns arose over both production capability and the distribution systemâs ability to handle the additional gasoline types. Pipelines had to carry more distinct types of products, which affected the number of breakout tanks required and availability of tanks for each gasoline type. The increased number of products even affected the speed with which the products move through the line, because of the need to inject and draw off smaller batches. The industry responded by partially eliminating the need to ship and store midgrade gasoline through the addition of in-line blending at terminals. Premium grade and regular grades were blended in appropriate ratios to create midgrade product as the material was loaded into trucks, and in some cases at the retail pump. Product exchanges between suppliers were also used to eliminate the need for all terminals to store all products.1 


In parallel with the Federal gasoline changes, States have added gasoline types as well.2 As States developed their State Implementation Plans (SIPS) to improve air quality, many found they could achieve significant reductions in air emissions by requiring a low-RVP conventional gasoline. When refiners only have to produce a few gasolines of different quality, production costs for low-RVP conventional fuels can be less than for RFG. In addition, California found it needed to use a cleaner fuel than Federal RFG (California RFG, or CaRFG), and the Midwest created a unique ethanol-blended RFG (see Appendix C, âUsing Ethanol in Gasoline,â in EIAâs answer to Sen. Bingamanâs question regarding âTiming for Startup of the Renewable Fuel Standardâ). Now, in addition to RFG, oxygenated, and conventional gasolines, the system needed to accommodate several low-RVP conventional gasolines, CaRFG and ethanol-blended RFG. The net result of the increase in gasoline fuel types in todayâs market is shown in Figure 1. 

While the number of gasoline fuel types grew, the number of distillate fuel types also increased. On-road diesel fuel had to have lower sulfur levels than heating oil, resulting in segregation of distillate fuel oil into low-sulfur and other sulfur levels. In the Northeast, which uses much heating oil, States have added further sulfur distinctions for heating oil to meet their specific State environmental needs. Because distillate fuels use the same distribution system as gasoline, traveling through pipelines batched with gasoline fuels and being stored at the same terminals, the increasing number of distillate fuels also contributed to logistical complexity.

Looking just at gasoline, the general impact of an increasing number of distinct gasoline fuels with smaller demands and, in some cases, served by fewer suppliers has been to reduce the flexibility of the supply and distribution system to respond to unexpected supply/demand shifts. Thus, while some States were trying to contain gasoline prices by choosing various low-RVP types instead of RFG, they inadvertently traded potential production cost savings for distribution system strain, which translated to more potential for price volatility. When the market tightens in a distinct fuel area, which can occur from a supply disruption, a winter-to-summer transition, or unusual demand, the system has less ability to respond than when fuels were more fungible. Regions with specialized gasolines cannot borrow from their neighbors if they run short without a special waiver, and with a limited number of suppliers for a specialized fuel, supply response may take several weeks. This, in turn, has led to unintended price volatility in some areas. 

Historical Price Volatility and Role of Increasing Number of Fuel Types 


Eliminating


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I see.

That is all post-1990.

My knowledge was from 1965 until then, and now.

I was stationed outside of CONUS during most of the '90s, so I really did not follow what was happening.

Thank you, for bringing us up to date.


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