# Composting for Survival, part two.



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

After nearly ten years of building a successful excavating and light demolition business, a rather messy run-in with bureaucracy and the infamous "y2k" potential scenario were the stimuli employed by Providence to set me firmly to work on a different strand.
Wendy and I were already quite familiar with independence and self-sufficiency, having by that time built our cabin from scratch, birthed three young at home, gardened for a good portion of our food supply and intentionally foregone the insurance "safety net" so prevalent in this day and age.
When I finally realized the scope of the battle that had been waged against me, I was gaining a fierceness about that previously dabbled-in sense of self-reliance and my determination to survive became a driving force. It was in the thick of that dark time that she and I resolved to go it alone. 
I recall well the conversation we had. We looked long and hard at our future as a family. We looked long and hard at our past and I told her, "This isn't a problem.
I was raised growing food, tending livestock and building things by unconventional means. I spent my youth in the woods, living free. We've already come this far thinking outside the box." There was no hesitation. She had no illusions of where we were going with this. For reasons I won't go into here, we believed it to be in our best interests, and in the interest of purity, to close all bank accounts. We cancelled all credit cards.
As circumstance would have it..... we were debt free. 
We shut off the power then, though it was several years before the electric company came to remove the poles between us and the next farm toward the road.
We turned in our driver licenses, so as not to consent to being bound to a contractual jurisdiction. We sold our automobile. Etc. etc. etc.

There we were. Alone. Vastly unfettered. Resolved. Harboring no illusions.
Among many other urgent priorities at the time, I turned my attention to the garden.
Over the course of the time we had been gardening, I had taken advantage of several opportunities as they presented themselves-- a truckload of horse manure here, a load of spoiled hay there, etc. But I had been enjoying the bounty of an "economy" enough not to have given much thought to building the soil. No longer so.
I recalled the experience of my youth, knew what had to be done, and began to seek out sources of composting material. 
Though I had no license, etc., I knew through various means that I had the respect of the local police. I bought an old, heavy duty Chevy pickup from a farming neighbor, built some high sides and a special tailgate for it, and began to travel the back roads in pursuit of humus. It was the yard waste disposal site of a small municipality 15 miles away that most notably caught my eye. There was a fair abundance of grass clippings, leaves, garden weeds and occasional wood chips... plenty for a man/pickup/pitchfork combination. I promptly adjusted my schedule to accommodate several trips thereto each week. I recall my first real pile, placed strategically at garden's edge. I recall thickly mulching my potatoes with the first few loads of grass clippings and leaves.
I made paths through the garden with wood chips.
Somewhere in that time we purchased our first milk cow. We already had chickens, an acquisition which she requested a couple years previous (a woman of foresight, she was). So began my use of manures to inoculate my compost piles with more of the proper strains of bacteria.
As often happens when one sets one's course with definity and resolve, opportunities began to present themselves. People began to take notice of my bent, and the number of sources for organic material increased.
Neighbors began to offer my their stall cleanings. Farmers with a rack of spoiled hay would bring some by from time to time. My compost pile began to take on a life of it's own, and soon outgrew it's allotted space. I suppose by that time it contained two or three semi loads of material. 
During my greatly reduced travels throughout the surrounding area, and given my newly reawakened passion, I began to take far greater notice of the landscape, always on the lookout for material sources. It didn't take long for the monster manure and bedding pile at the local sale barn, ten miles from home, to capture my undivided attention. I recall making what must have been a weak attempt at contacting someone in charge there and being summarily turned down....
I don't remember just how long a time went by between that disappointing day and the one during which I decided to call the owner, out of the blue. His name was Bob, and I'd done some backhoe work for him in years past. I called him at his office and simply offered,"say, I'll keep your manure piled up indefinitely if you'll let me have it all."
His immediate reply was,"well, why don't you just have at it, young man."
I have one valuable contact in a local trucking company. I knew I was in over my head, delightfully, though certainly, so promptly called them to hire a semi.
Having held on to my construction equipment, I was able to supply my loader/backhoe and we hauled out twelve or thirteen semiloads of stall cleanings that first go
'round. Obviously, my operation was never the same.
As I mentioned in chapter one, the local sawmill was just a little ways up the road. (We settled 2 miles from the home farm, just a little further out in the woods, a little closer to the river) I went to school with the two boys there and was kind of an eccentric oddity to their father, who started the operation from scratch. At that time they had hundreds of tons of old sawdust, that market not having yet ever come grandly into it's own as it has since..... 
As it happens, I hauled off-- with an age old tandem truck that I came up with, and, after, when I gave up automobiles for good in exchange for farm tractors and dump trailers-- several hundred tons of ancient and some fresh sawdust over the course of several years. Obviously, I was never short of carbon in my compost piles, which brings up an important point; in your determination of proper carbon/nitrogen ration, always err to the side of carbon. Carbon will absorb nitrogen from any source it can, whether it be the atmosphere, the soil, a man urinating, animal offal, animal carcasses, etc. and will always decompose eventually. A compost pile with an excess of nitrogen will putrify, even ferment and become a sort of silage smelling what-have-you if left alone.
Carbon, incidentally, is generally the cheaper and more available ingredient as well, as chance would have it. I have found it advantageous to maintain a carbon pile at all times, therefore having excess to balance the regular compost pile in the event that a nitrogen windfall is sent my way.

Now by this time, I was taking my composting pretty seriously, and the areas of garden that were most intensely treated with the material began to take on a seriousness of their own. Stuff was beginning to _grow_, if you know what I mean.
I had several piles going at once, varying in size by location.
At one point, a local locker plant inquired about dumping it's offal for me to compost.
I happily made allowances and kept a large hole in the side of my biggest pile for them to back up and unload into.
At one point, a large, commercial hay barn burned, and the owner brought me twenty some odd semi loads of charred hay and straw. 
Local farmers began to bring me dead livestock on a regular basis.
The sale barn's pile waxed and waned under my diligent supervision.

Somewhere in all of that time--it was winter-- I went through my old Mother Earth magazines and found the article on Jean Paine, I believe it was. He was the Frenchman who amassed huge piles of wood and debris shavings from the surrounding forests, ground to perfection in a tractor mounted chipper of his own design and manufacture.
He constructed massive piles of the material and ran tubing through them to form a water heating system that heated his house and water supply. He also drew methane from one of them that ran the small engine which produced his home power AND fueled his tractor.....
Now I wasn't ready to expand my technical knowledge to that brain-straining level, but I was intrigued by the compost house heat idea enough to begin digging a trench on the east side of my house (next to the garden) to accommodate a massive, three bay, concrete compost bunker, poured directly against the east house wall. That next fall I filled the thing to the brim, and waited. That December was one of the colder ones that I recall enduring down here in the timber (it was 2005) and we burned roughly half the wood we normally would have, and the ambient temperature in the house, especially in the typically cooler kitchen, furthest room from the wood stove, was ten degrees warmer (about 70 degrees compared to a previously experienced 60). The northernmost section of the bunker sat directly outside the kitchen window, where, subsequently, all kitchen waste and most dishwater was summarily discarded.
As some of you already know, we have long embraced the rocket technology of the sawdust toilet, and that material has always been deposited in the bunker, next to the house. Amid the shock and appall that must be going on among some readers at this point, there must be the double-edged question, "What of flies and odor?" Well, herein lies the secret, not only to flies and odor, but to compost across the board. 

See next post......


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Carbon.

Sawdust, dry leaves, _dry_ grass clippings (the fresh ones contain up to 50% nitrogen!!!) wood chips, straw, older hay, garden weeds, bean hulls, peanut hulls, ground up corn cobs, paper, cardboard, etc. are all sources of carbon.
ALL odor and pestilence are rectified absolutely with the proper application of carbon.
You see, carbon and nitrogen have a chemical valence that binds one to the other.
The relationship is near nuptial, such is the mutual attraction.
Carbon also captures and neutralizes the sulfides and ammoniums that a rowdy compost pile can generate, especially one containing dead animals and such richness as gooey kitchen waste. 
Of course, for the kitchen composter with a small pile and limited sources of other organic material, there still remains somewhat of a potential odor problem.
But, in this survival forum, I am certain that we are among far more serious preparation fanatics who by now wouldn't be caught dead with anything less than a fully integrated composting program and mountains of the stuff rotting everywhere.....right ?

Well, nearing the end of my energy for the night, I'll conclude with the most recent and, likely, most comprehensive boon to my composting efforts to date.....

Though the place has likely existed longer, maybe far longer, than I have, it only recently was brought to my attention that the city of Canton, Illinois, maintains a fairly extensive site for the locals to dispose of their yard waste. In fact, it was this early last summer that I and my new wife, Lori, went on the maiden journey to where I was made aware the place was located. Upon entering the gate, it was immediately impressed upon me that I had graduated, somehow yet again, in the ever-broadening scope of my soil-building pursuits. There were pick-up load sized piles of grass clippings all over. The quantity of material simply dwarfed the scope of the first, smaller municipality that I mentioned. There were larger truckloads of wood chips, various piles of sawdust, leaves, garden waste, stump grindings, corn stalks, old straw, rotting hay..... my God, I was delirious. I honestly didn't know where to begin. I remember just backing the tractor and wagon over to several of the larger piles of grass clippings and bagged leaves and began loading up. I felt drunk almost all the way home (about 17 miles). We immediately began the new routine of three or four trips a week.
First we used the larger farm tractor, a 150 horse John Deere 4630, and the wagon. Then we tried the old Model A, just me and three boys with pitch forks, and the one wagon.
Occasionally we would meet some of the city workers out there, dropping something off or picking up various items of trash. A couple times a week, they'd come out with a big loader to push the brush into a pile for burning and to push everything else out in a three foot thick or so layer to decompose..... after which they apparently shoved everything over the hill, out of the way (_egads!!!_).
Once I asked one of them if we were overstepping our bounds by hauling the stuff off.
He assured me that it was fine.
Well, it was during this time that it was impressed upon me the need for a smaller loader tractor and I began to pursue that end with a passion. The days were awfully hot, at times, and one wagon was enough to be loading by hand, but I wanted to pull two for efficiency sake..... It wasn't long before I was the proud new owner of the little 3010 diesel, complete with front end loader. I began pulling both of my dump wagons several times a week, often twice in an otherwise unhindered day, loaded to the gills with fresh organic materials. If I wasn't completely ecstatic with the new-found ease and convenience, my three boys certainly were. 
It wasn't long before the city workers really began to take notice. 
One day the man who operates the loader came over as I was finishing up and asked me what in the world I was doing with all that material.
I told him I was composting it. He asked if I had a truck patch and sold organic produce or something. There came a certain gleam in his eye when I told him, "nope, just building about 4-5 acres of Eden-like soil for my family's provision, and giving away the excess". He left, only to shortly return a passenger in the fancy pickup that belonged to the city's Street Superintendent. He said, "tell the Boss what you told me earlier".
So, I promptly repeated my short story.
Later, I found out that there had been no small conversation about me and the boys' efforts out there. They were impressed with the way we had just come in and started, not only hauling away what we wanted, but tidying up the place and picking out the trash and sticks as we went. As it happens, they had just recently determined that they were running out of space out there....
So when I began hauling two loads out at a time and actually starting to dig into material that had been there a couple years already, more than keeping up with the city's flow of yard waste, the Boss had been biding his time, wanting to meet and talk to me about further prospects. As it turns out, I still haul about a load a week, more to keep the place tidied up and running smoothly from my standpoint.
When I relayed my story to the Boss that fateful day, he confided in me his long-held, but henceforth unpursued passion for the soil.... and promptly scolded me for working too hard. They have since been hauling, in their several city dump trucks, up to twenty loads each week, to my location....thus saving me hundreds of dollars in repairs and fuel, not to mention countless hours on the road. They are beyond delighted to have a place they can go with the stuff where it will be put to productive use.
This fall, the Boss tells me that there will be several hundred loads of shredded leaves that will be hauled directly to my composting operation......

So, where there is a will, there is a way. 
Where there is focus and diligence applied, there are opportunities waiting.
There is no excuse for delaying another day the process of gathering materials and beginning or expanding your own soil building efforts.
Let's spread the word and take back the fertility that once made this nation the greatest land of opportunity on the planet.

*bows profusely, blowing kisses and waving to the roaring crowd*

Chapter three coming soon...... "How to properly construct a compost pile"


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Keep em comin, great stuff, good writing........
ED


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## spiffydave (Mar 19, 2008)

I now feel ashamed about my little straw bale compost heap filled with ground leaves, coffee grounds from a few local coffee shops, kitchen scraps, ground up garden plants, and now the degenerating top layer of straw bales.

I salute you sir!


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I love reading your posts. Do you have pics? I've love to see what you have accomplished.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Timothy - thank you so much.

the writing is good, easy reading and I'm learning stuff I never knew.

Thank you, and keep it coming.

Angie


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Great story. Unfortunately, a large amount of what you're doing would be illegal in Ontario without onerous amounts of paperwork, public consultation, inspection, etc. etc. which just reinforces to me how ridiculous our current government is.

I started composting our deadstock a couple of years ago. Two feet of bedded pack manure out of the heifer barn on the bottom, then the dead carcass, then another two feet on top. Using any carbon material with manure in it was technically illegal until this past spring though. Just about to start a new pile now. Only problem I've found is that bears are willing to dig more than two feet for a "fresh" (up to about 2 months) carcass so I have to rebury a lot. Once they've been in the pile about 6 months, there's nothing left but part of the pelvis and the top of the skull.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Spinner said:


> I love reading your posts. Do you have pics? I've love to see what you have accomplished.


Go to my wife, Lori's blog.

http://frmerswife.blogspot.com/2009/04/sawdust-is-our-friend.html


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## Tsurugi_Oni (Aug 13, 2009)

Great posts!! I read them both and was absolutely captivated from beginning to end. 

It just goes to show that a little personal ingenuity can lead a long way. I was dreaming of a similar plan for use in the suburbs. Reading this story is awfully inspiring.


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## homesteadmama (May 30, 2002)

Reading this actually makes the hours I am being cut back at work exciting--more time to really get into composting for my little place!!:dance:


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## Annie (May 10, 2002)

:bow: Wonderful posts!!! Thanks Timothy for taking your time and sharing your knowledge with us. Can't wait for the next post!


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## TheMrs (Jun 11, 2008)

I really enjoy reading this..thank you so much for sharing!


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## raybait1 (Sep 30, 2006)

Another great post. Ever think about writing a book?
I'm looking forward to reading more.


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## PrincessFerf (Apr 25, 2008)

Wonderful read! 

You are now "Captain Compost" in my book! I am in awe of the scale you work! Fantastic!


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Just curious--after SHTF, how feasible is gathering compost from 10-15 miles away, and also if "everyone" is doing it, won't that be less raw materials for you? Do you really NEED that volume of compost? It kinda sounds like you have more than you can ever use, unless you use it to cook hot water...I'm interested in a "closed loop" compost cycle...seeing how it goes using stuff from my land(10 acres, but I gather from an area roughly 100x100 feet) to garden/amend. What I take of course from the woods is such a small amount of what is availble so I'm not even using the potential(but if I did I wouldn't have any woods then would i?). 

So how much stuff do you produce on your land? what cycles through? How much volume of stuff compared to that are you gathering from other places and piling on your land(in a sense making it unavailble to the original owner--I know they are throwing it away, but just thinking of the closed loop idea, keeping poo local). 

So what is your acreage and what do you do with it? or is it just a huge pile of compost poo cooking away?

And since you ditched your license what do you do for ID? I think it's kinda cheating to still drive public roads without a license...did you ditch your property tax too? (sorry, I find it interesting when someone does something like this on principle and then relies on cred with cops and ends up doing it anyways).

Not trying to be a meanie, but you're saying interesting things and if I was sitting at your table eating pie and coffee with you I'd be askign the same questions 

BTW our town garbage system composts all yard debri, they have glorious huge piles of it, you'd be proud! ALso the county guys who trim brish along roads will dump off the wood chips for free too.

K, I read again, I see you are building 4-5 acres of soil. So how bad was the soil to begin with? when will you start spreading the piles and planting? how will you apply the compost? on top or dug in? how wil you continue to cook giant piles for the city when you layout your garden/crops/fields? sounds like you need to go to the city or county and propose a place to cook piles and you can volunteer to oversee. I know some places city/counties cook the piles from yard debri and it's free to taxpayers(heh) for the taking away. 

BTW I thin the guy that raises pigs (Highlands-something?) has commented he pratices a closed loop sort of thing(my memory may be fuzzy tho) sorry for the bad spelling, this computer is really hard to skip back and fix things with teh cursor one more quesiton--how MUCH compost do you think you need before you can start planting?


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

and one more thing (ha) I have this idea in my head that the "secret' to soil fertility is understanding how the soil works in it's virgin state--if a piece of land can grow a vigorous varied forest it's got it goin on, in other words it's firing on all cylinders the ebest it can, and understnading the cycle and how much o stuff and using native stuff will be the "best" way, both from a non-native use of the soil(farming/gardening "is" invasive after all--not sayign that is bad, just that knowing that helps work out problems), and producing harvest with the least amount of intrusion and altering of natural systems and chemistry. 


So for instance trucking in loads of goat-horse-cow manure and clippings from nonnative sprayed landscaping would not be "natural" or fit into my thought. But picking up SOME of the fallen leaves from my trees, using ash from my trees, using poop from my chickens(we have wild turkeys so chickens are 'close enough"), and then my new thought of collecting deer poop would be.

THen there are some vegetables that do better in "poor" soil--what about that?

I know it sounds whacked to say I'm not into gathering truckloads of outside manure(If I had a horse etc I would use it tho), and I can't offer an argument other than concentraiting that much poop on a piece of land that would never receive that ammount of poop naturally seems counter to "natural" to me...

On the other hand I'm nor producing a bunch of crops, right now I just have a small (abotu 35x35) garden that I'm learning on. I'm trying to have the least amount of garden space on my land, I just want the rest of it to be as natural as possible. But I do think that understnading how my piece of land grows things, then intensifying that native natural system is the thing, not importing either foreign stuff(non-native) or huge amounts(not mirroring the balance) (sorry I feel like I'm rambling, sorry if it's confusing, ha I'm just being "organic")

ANyways, I started fiddling in my garden this year using this thinking, and I had the best harvest ever! I just have one slash pile(super slow composting) and compost directly into the soil.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

It may not be natural, but neither is it natural to harvest season after season of produce from the land. On my own farm, the manure and composting is just my attempts at building fertility while still harvesting. 

There's a balance that must be struck between "natural" and "productive" where productive means that people subtract food nutrients from the soil. This land I'm on is not "natural" land. It's a farm which needs to feed six people and provide a livelihood for the farmer. My own goals in composting (I can't speak for Forerunner) is simply in maintaining the fertility that produces healthy vegetables and leaving the land in better shape than it was when I got it. 

I have no intention on returning it to virgin forest. I have no intention of making it a wilderness preserve or rendering it into fenceline-to-fenceline permaculture. I just hope that whomever comes after me appreciates my efforts at building fruitful fields.


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## Annie (May 10, 2002)

I didn't get the impression that Forerunner had "poop" trucked in, but instead grass clippings, sawdust, dead animals from farmers and a variety of other things. It would be great to mimic the forest but an average tree drops approximately 120 lbs of leaves a year and that's just 1 tree, now add up all the trees in the forest and then the years it took to make the soil. Most of the land we use for raising food has been raped by generations before us and for us to get it back to the kind of fertile land, like you were writing about, we don't have the luxury of years that it takes for forest composting. One day, maybe we might be able to maintain the way the forest does. To build a garden from mediocre soil that would soley feed a family, not just a hobby garden, it takes alot of compost. 

So what do you do if you're relying on your garden for survival? You start gathering what you can now and hopefully one day if the shtf, you can then maintain. I am surrounded on 3 sides by forest. I rake the leaves in the yard and open areas for compost, but it is still taking years with this small amount, compared to the forest, that I can gather. I won't go into the woods and get leaves because that upsets that balance. I would rather see material put to use that was going to be disposed of than not. You have to start somewhere.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

k, I DID say I was rambling, right? Of course "natural" is nebulous--I was at a Fish n Game wildlife preserve which was being restored to "natural" oak savannah(which came into being because the nat am's burned regular to propagate savannah conditions) and asked the guy after the rah rah natural speeh, so what "is" natural? the oak savannah or the colonizing douglas fir forest? he laughed and said well, we really can't say, and TPTB say look back to historical landscapes 'as the first white man would have seen it"(while rolling his eyes). BTW talk about a killa garage full of excavating and giant yellow machines!!! he also was proud "your tax dollars at work" and said people could actually borrow it for restoration projects. k, more rambling...

I'm not poopooing compost or gathering stuff to make it. It's just whenever I see huge piles of something, even if it's compost, it's my own personal knee jerk quirk to go "Whoa!" and think, how much is really needed(prudent wise use within the whole), how much is "enough"(no waste), and how much is my "fair" share(dont' be a glutton). See what I'm saying? if he's gathering everything from a 15 mile radius to concentrate on his 5 acres, while fine when it's all being thrown away by everybody else, but since this is the S&P forum and we specualate a time when everyone needs to compost adn activity is far more localized, how does his huge giant piles fit into that? 

on the other hand his five acres could grow a hellalotta food for a lot of people. once that compost is spread and planted I mean  and not just used for making hot water(I'm saying this tongue in cheek in a elbowing joking manner--disclaimer!)

Building good fertile soil--there is more to it than just adding compost, it's complex, yet not that hard to get. THere's nutrients and soil structure, and it's different every place in the country. My native soils, while supporting big amounts of varied biomass in the forest, are not that "fertile", slash and burn and the land will grow crops for a few years at best--there is something about the whole system, in place, in the place it's in place, that needs to be considered, and the understanding will help you boost fertility for your "non-native" crops--for a techie word it's the mycchorizal relationships.(I'm sure I didn't spell that right...). 

It doesn't take years for compost/humus in the forest, it's not any slower than directly composting in the beds(which for me, temperately, takes about through winter, lots of rain)--but then again, timing is different in different locales. 

I'm just trying to say (badly) is to try to understand the land you are on, the climate, the geology, the native species, what thrives, what doesn't grow there happliy--dont' crack a book on how to garden in the midwest if you live in Oregon(get Steve Solomon's book ), it's more than just compost


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Thank you, Annie. 

You've said in as simple and direct of terms everything that I may just decide to lay out in grave and painful detail. 

I've had many a less-inspired or otherwise normal individual call me to task on just about every thing I've ever endeavored to do. It is a curse, you see, saddling for life those of us who refuse to surrender our passions and the imagination that feeds them. 

I appreciate your candor, Wyld, in your mention of a conversation at the kitchen table. IF we were at my kitchen table, you'd likely have seen things and absorbed enough atmosphere of this place to see that there is a balance, and that there is no inclination to "cheat" any thing or any one.
Given the broad scope of participants at THIS particular table, and the hard fact that not everyone is ready to receive certain levels of truth, I will answer your questions, point by point, to the best of my ability without further offending the sensitive.

"Just curious--after SHTF, how feasible is gathering compost from 10-15 miles away, and also if "everyone" is doing it, won't that be less raw materials for you?"

I am using the resources available to me today to accumulate that which would otherwise be wasted, completely, so that, if the stuff ever does hit the fan, my family and community will have anywhere between a 4 and 25 acre piece of ground that has such rich tilth that it can be cultivated with nothing but hand tools. I have offered to let others share in this incredible bounty, and they get nervous and quickly look for an exit. (It all requires work, you know) How I wish there were just ten others within 20 miles, of like mind.

"Do you really NEED that volume of compost?"

I wouldn't have thought so, back when I began to pursue this by more humble means. But.... I have been applying what most might think is too much compost to our main garden, by the house, for over 10 years, at the rate of, say, 4-6 inches per year. By now, you'd think the productivity of this quarter acre would have leveled off. 

Not so. 

Every year.... _every year_..... I see improvement, sometimes drastic improvement. Keeping quality, plant size, harvest tonnage, disease and pest resistance, _increasing shortness of required growing season for certain crops_, taste, drought, and this year, _WET, COLD and BLIGHT_ resistance..... all of these improve by increments, _every year_.
Where does it end ?
Where does one determine that he has discovered/accomplished maximum tilth ?
Where do you stop and determine that where you find yourself is good enough ?
Who would, having the means to go forward in greatly reducing the amount of land required to feed a given number of people, decide to retire and say to hell with the rest ? ....and I have many more acres available to me....
I have chosen to begin with the 4-5 and see how far I can go. Do the math.
One semi load of compost, 20 tons, _might_ cover roughly 1500 square feet, 4-6 inches deep; hardly more than a good start, I'd say. Now, how many semi loads would it take to cover an acre ? 5?
I try to spread 4-6 inches on the fields twice a year, finished material.
Now we won't delve too deeply into the fact that the volume and weight of the raw material decreases by up to 50 % as it decomposes due to water and hydrogen loss....

"What I take, of course, from the woods is such a small amount of what is available so I'm not even using the potential(but if I did I wouldn't have any woods then would I?)."

I take zero material from the woods surrounding me on four sides, for the purpose of composting. I use 100 % what would otherwise be wasted, material that may even be dumped so as to cause a septic runoff problem did I not intervene.

"So how much stuff do you produce on your land?"

A lot..... but for the sake of keeping family sanity, I devote most of the ground to grain crops, for now, and harvest with a combine.

"What cycles through? 

I could name hundreds of things. You might be a bit more specific here.

"How much volume of stuff compared to that are you gathering from other places and piling on your land(in a sense making it unavailable to the original owner--I know they are throwing it away, but just thinking of the closed loop idea, keeping poo local)."

I'm really not terribly interested in pointless hypotheticals.
The original owners of all this material abandoned it absolutely.
For the record, people unrelated to the original owners show up on occasion asking if they might purchase some _finished_ compost from my collection. I have yet to turn any away. I have yet to charge one red cent for the material or the loading thereof. :bouncy:

"So what is your acreage and what do you do with it? 

My acreage varies, due to occasional neighbor involvement to mutual good.

"or is it just a huge pile of compost poo cooking away?"

Now, let's not tip our facetious hand prematurely.....

"And since you ditched your license what do you do for ID?"

I have none. I am rather known, far and wide. I have not used ID for at least ten years.

"I think it's kinda cheating to still drive public roads without a license...did you ditch your property tax too? (sorry, I find it interesting when someone does something like this on principle and then relies on cred with cops and ends up doing it anyways)."

Did I mention giving up all automobiles for tractors ?
I do pay all of the taxes that I owe. Some are easy enough to avoid. Others not so easy. There is diligence, knowledge and sacrifice required to live this way. If you knew the true nature of vehicle licensing and registration, you might be asking someone else some pretty pointed questions, but then, maybe not. It takes courage to confront real hindrances to freedom.

"So how bad was the soil to begin with?"

Timber soil with an emphasis on sand and clay, depending on where.

"When will you start spreading the piles and planting?"

You're a bit late on that one. Been spreading piles every year, and planting every year, since the beginning.

"How will you apply the compost? on top or dug in?"

I have assorted options. I can use the manure spreader. It can carry and dispense 8 tons, or so, at a time. I can dump the material and spread it with the bulldozer. I can rip it in 24 inches deep with a neighbor's chisel plow.
I have a disc, a moldboard 5 bottom, a harrow, field cultivator, etc.
Regardless of how it is applied, it is always tilled in within hours.
I have a real issue with wasting my hard-earned nitrogen. 
I am NOT afraid to use the technology available today to prepare for the lack of it tomorrow.

"How will you continue to cook giant piles for the city when you lay out your garden/crops/fields?"

I call it, "allotted space". 

"Sounds like you need to go to the city or county and propose a place to cook piles and you can volunteer to oversee."

Sounds like you assume that I have not.

"BTW I think the guy that raises pigs (Highlands-something?) has commented he practices a closed loop sort of thing(my memory may be fuzzy tho) sorry for the bad spelling, this computer is really hard to skip back and fix things with the cursor) one more question--how MUCH compost do you think you need before you can start planting?"

I'm not yet concerned about closed loops. When physical limitations to my overt productivity eventually prevent me, I will do whatever I can, be it hauling/tilling by other mechanical means or using a pitchfork and hoe on the material I generate here.
Incidentally, I have been correcting your spelling and grammar as we go. :bouncy:
I don't need any more compost before I can start planting.

Now, in response to your second post.....

You are free to pursue the ideas in your head to the greatest degree that you are willing and able. I won't even question them, though I may inadvertently challenge them by what I write elsewhere.
I am a man given to productivity.
I could never be content with anything in my charge that might be improved by my efforts. Soil is my passion, for many reasons, not the least of which is that it is our own individual piece of the earth that man was given to "dress and keep".
It is my conviction that there is a connection between the quality of nourishment that we consume and the capability of our spirit to function.
I believe that clarity of thought, sharpness of wit, fitness of mind and body, _fierceness of passion_, not to mention our original capacity as capable spirits of benevolent dominion have all been grossly compromised by what we have been fed. 

I seek to change that, and change starts at home.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Oh, and......just for kicks.


"No state government entity has the power to allow or deny passage on the highways, byways, nor waterways...... transporting his vehicles and personal property for recreation or business. Travel is not a privilege requiring licensing, registration or forced insurances." 
Chicago Coach Co. v. City of Chicago, 337 Ill. 200, 169 N.E. 22

"The court makes it clear that a license relates to qualifications to engage in profession, business, trade or calling; thus when merely traveling without compensation or profit, outside of business enterprise or adventure with the corporate state, no license is required of the natural individual traveling for personal business, pleasure and transportation."
Wingfield V. Fielder 2d Ca. 3d 213 (1972)


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

sorry forerunner, I always have gotten into trouble by asking questions, but I never learn, I'm sorry for pushing you buttons by asking(now I did try to make it friendly by mentioning pie and coffee...now with my neighbor it's vodka and oj, and much funner convo/fight to boot). You did post this in S&P and titled this compost and survival--so I connected the two and had some questions. on the other hand I've been around HT enough to know when the grammar police step in discussion is over.

I truly appreciate you answering my questions--Godspeed on terraforming. Also don't rely on depending on the loophole of driving a tractor without a DL--here in my rural county there are lobbiesfor more restirction on moving equipment on public roads because even tho the law says drivers are personally responsible for looking out for farm equipment on rural roads, people still get killed around blind curves because they won't SLOW DOWN. The lobbyists want to have pilot cars fore and aft, if not equipment just trucked around on trialers with pilot cars fore and aft, not to mention DL for equipment operators, and moving at certain hours--tell me what that will do to your plan? I realize of course this is in my county not yours, but it is not implausible for your situation either. just a heads up.

While I do agree with you next to last paragraph about being passionate n all (my sig *is* suck marrow* after all) I also see the value of "be still and know". 

(sorry, I started dicussing, I'll shut up now, and no, I'm not going to fix my spelling and grammar mistakes, have at them! enjoy!) and I'll continue to see what I can can do with my garden from things I can glean from my woods--because I have no other resources, I can't just go buy stuff at Lowe's, I can't go drive around to haul manure in, hub doesn't want workers dumping chips here yada yada. (gawd I'm rambling again...)


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Forerunner said:


> Thank you, Annie.
> 
> I've had many a less-inspired or otherwise normal individual call me to task on just about every thing I've ever endeavored to do. It is a curse, you see, saddling for life those of us who refuse to surrender our passions and the imagination that feeds them.
> 
> .


and another thing(heh, goad, goad,poke poke) I much prefer someone who questions me than someone who swallows what I say hook line n sinker. Iron sharpens iron. questions make me think through something yet again, considering new angles and discovering new whys. even the "less-inspired" questions.


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## Annie (May 10, 2002)

No swallowing here!  As a longtime amatuer nerd on soil myself, I guess I could see where Forerunner was coming from. And hey, Wyld, I'm also one of the worst on questioning about everything. If you could only ask people that knew me....if drives them crazy! For us that always ask "why", I'd say it's a pretty good trait to have, so actually I really enjoyed your post...sorry if it came out the other way. It did get Forerunner to post more on the subject, which is a good thing! 

Just wanted to clarify about my statement on taking years for soil to form. It's true. Compost and soil are two different animals, so to speak. But I guess when posting I was thinking of soil and should have stayed on the subject matter.

peace,
annie


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## Annie (May 10, 2002)

And another thing ( heh, goad, goad, poke, poke)......(teasin ya)....but humus and compost not the same).


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Awesome stuff forerunner. My place is closed loop when it comes to organic material. I'm constantly adding to the tilth. Anymore it's just the natural thing to do.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

"The lobbyists want to have pilot cars fore and aft, if not equipment just trucked around on trialers with pilot cars fore and aft, not to mention DL for equipment operators, and moving at certain hours--tell me what that will do to your plan?"


It is a fluid world. Adapt, improvise, overcome.


Do you often wring your hands in despair when confronted with the topics of lobbyists' wet dreams ? Man, you've just _got_ to rise above that stuff....


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## fordson major (Jul 12, 2003)

my grandfather and his two boys cleared off virgin sandy soil after WW2, built it up with organics from the near by city (there were horse stables near were they sold their produce and poultry). the farm was expropriated for a greenbelt around the city but my uncle remained there till his passing in 96, up until about 1990 people would haul their material to his farm and there were large windrows cooking for the next years crop! now this material is picked up at high cost to us taxpayers and composted at a central depot! you are not allowed access to the material except on a user pay basis!
while i am not in favor of a license for farm tractors, some of those tractors are getting big! and the number of operators that you see doing something stupid makes you wonder! not that automobile pilots are any different!:soap:


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

All I can say is WOW!
I'm completely captivated by all this info Forerunner.
Thanks so much for posting it. Looking forward to more.

You do have a talent for writing, and if you did publish something, I sure would want to buy it.
I wish there was a hands on clinic for this kind of thing since I'm a more "see it, then do it" kind of learner. 
Yes, I know there are such things available I should look into. But I mean I really like Forerunner's take on things, and would specifically be interested in his class, so to speak. Some of the things that are offered are not necessarily conducted with the same end-goal or values intertwined.


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## PrincessFerf (Apr 25, 2008)

Thanks for the updates, Forerunner.

On a personal note, I cleared out my veggie garden bed and loaded it up with about 6 - 8 inches of chicken manure and straw after cleaning out the coop. Plus, after emptying the flower pots, the soil and roots from the flowers got thrown in there, too. I'm VERY excited to see what I have in the spring!

One step at a time, right?


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Annie said:


> No swallowing here!  As a longtime amatuer nerd on soil myself, I guess I could see where Forerunner was coming from. And hey, Wyld, I'm also one of the worst on questioning about everything. If you could only ask people that knew me....if drives them crazy! For us that always ask "why", I'd say it's a pretty good trait to have, so actually I really enjoyed your post...sorry if it came out the other way. It did get Forerunner to post more on the subject, which is a good thing!
> 
> Just wanted to clarify about my statement on taking years for soil to form. It's true. Compost and soil are two different animals, so to speak. But I guess when posting I was thinking of soil and should have stayed on the subject matter.
> 
> ...


oops, annie, just to be clear I didn't mean to include your name in my quote, that was unintended and nothing was meant by it towards you (or swallowing neither)

And Forerunner--"I am no man" (just to be clear, heh, fave quote from TLOTR) I'm not sure what you mean by me wringing lobbyists wet dreams... but whatever. I think it's good to keep tabs on which ways the wind blows, and frankly, when ballot measures are introduced in our county regarding equipment on the roads, the numbers/votes are there on the side not favoring the farmers.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

ford major said:


> my grandfather and his two boys cleared off virgin sandy soil after WW2, built it up with organics from the near by city (there were horse stables near were they sold their produce and poultry). the farm was expropriated for a greenbelt around the city but my uncle remained there till his passing in 96, up until about 1990 people would haul their material to his farm and there were large windrows cooking for the next years crop! now this material is picked up at high cost to us taxpayers and composted at a central depot! you are not allowed access to the material except on a user pay basis!
> while i am not in favor of a license for farm tractors, some of those tractors are getting big! and the number of operators that you see doing something stupid makes you wonder! not that automobile pilots are any different!:soap:


There are several books out from years ago that mention the common practice of carting off the cities' "waste" products to the farm, where they were put to good use. That sort of stuff just speaks to me.
It's mind boggling, the amount of potential soil nutrition that gets buried in the landfills every day.



partndn said:


> All I can say is WOW!
> I'm completely captivated by all this info Forerunner.
> Thanks so much for posting it. Looking forward to more.
> 
> ...


I would entertain the possibility of weekend classes/activities out here, for starts....


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

so can we ask questions along the way or do you want us to hold all questions till the end and submit them to your people? 

Here in Oregon we're not so wasteful about yard waste. There are separate cans for debri, and extra pickups or large piles in the fall and everything goes to compost. If you are caught dumping yardwaste at the dump you are spanked. Like I said, the county guys who trim the brush either dump it at folks who will take it, or they take it to the city composting facility(heh, we HAVE a CITY COMPOSTING FACILITY). This came about because the people wanted it. Sounds like you need to get on the stick and get your community organized(geez, you ARE in Illinois after all!).

I suppose I should add a disclaimer and say I can't vouch that ALL cities or counties do this in Oregon. But everywhere I've lived does. As well as recycling up the ying yang. No yard debri pickup in the country--but then I'm assuming they think we have enough room to compost it ourselves.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I'm really interested in the heating the kitchen side of the house with the compost.. I wonder if a geothermal tube could work if the compost was a bit further from the house.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Heating with compost should e pretty efficient.
I'm not up on my BTUs/math/mass equations, but I'm envisioning the little water heaters that people use to power their in-floor heating system.
If we can't beat that with a compost pile, something's wrong.

A couple semi loads of a good blend of compost materials would give off a tremendous amount of BTUs over a three to four month period. A stainless tank buried with black plastic lines, say, an inch to an inch and a half inside diameter, or, a simple coil of black plastic water pipe in either of those dimensions would serve for the heat collector.
A simple water pump inside the house to complete the closed loop and I believe you could run yourself right out of the house if you wanted.... That compost would heat at 150 F. You can stick your hand a foot deep in any of my piles and feel near scalding temperatures. Given the fact that the heat _source_ is the costly end of the heating bill, it's a wonder this hasn't caught on among the permaculture crowd.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

So the heated flooring, with the piping coming from the depth of the compost pile. I've got to think on this. Sounds too easy to be possible, but then makes sense with the temps and how things "cook" being taught here.

Thanks Timothy.


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## michelleIL (Aug 29, 2004)

Forerunner said:


> That compost would heat at 150 F. You can stick your hand a foot deep in any of my piles and feel near scalding temperatures.


Wow...didn't know that would be that hot. You could use it as a thermal hot water collector, as long as the pipes were very clean, for using to wash or for regular hot water use.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

About the home and water heating aspect of it, I first read about that in 1981 in Mother Earth magazine. I think they were still subjecting it to trials at that time. The heat went in cycles and only lasted for about 4-5 months at 150 degrees, then it would be time to switch the water lines over to another pile. Here's their article. 

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1981-07-01/DIY-Water-Heating-Compost.aspx

These days if you do an internet search about DIY home and water heating with compost there seems to be a lot more people caught on to the idea of it in the past 28 years and come up with improved innovations, even to heating whole greenhouses placed over top of the piles in the winters. I had some homesteading friends up the coast who used compost heat for all their hot water needs for a family of 4.

.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

spiffydave said:


> I now feel ashamed about my little straw bale compost heap filled with ground leaves, coffee grounds from a few local coffee shops, kitchen scraps, ground up garden plants, and now the degenerating top layer of straw bales.
> 
> I salute you sir!


I have been composting for 40+ years, all that material would have been land filled, but instead it became a great amment to my clay soil.
Never feel bad about anything you can do to keep the natural systems working, no matter how big or small.

I too want to congrat FR on his efforts, and it's good to hear from, as was high lighted in the older MEN, "Them thats doin'".


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

a cow uses compost (kinda) to keep warm...


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## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

Last fall, I ran a chisel plow thru sandy soil surrounding our deadstock/manure pile. The lambs buried underneath have been there 3 years. I planted beans and tomatoes, potatoes and squash, depending on the concentration of manure versus sand since it wasn't well mixed or spread. I had a great crop and the tomatoes were free of the blossom end rot that I found in other beds. I found the remains of lamb carcasses and the soil was a reddish colour in that area. The few spine and shoulder bones I reburied.

I've built piles specifically for deadstock before. The largest critter I've composted was a 20 lb piglet. That compost went on the lawn. The trick for me was to plan the pile around the fact that there was a corpse inside and pay attention to the amount of heat produced. It wasn't a passive pile and I monitored it. I also placed the pile in an area where I knew it would be undisturbed for a long time. I'm not squeamish but this year is the first year that I've actually grown food in a deadstock area and I can say I'm pleased with the results.


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## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

I'm running out of time but one of my fall plans was to build a contained compost heap inside my oultry barn. I want to build a bin out of a coil of farm fence, wrap it so that the birds can't pick at it and them layer it full of browns and hot horse manure. If I vent it, in theory it should creat additional heat for the birds while cooking down.
Oh well, maybe next year....


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

A few years ago, I poured an eight foot wide by 26 foot long footing, dug three feet in and sticking out a foot above ground, next to my cow barn, as the foundation for a new chicken house. My theory was to have, one, a completely rat-proof chicken house, and two, to have a three foot deep area for bedding.
I filled the pit with sawdust and turned the chickens in.
It did heat after a couple months of occupation. I did ventilate somewhat as a working compost will give off carbon dioxide and some methane.
I figure on cleaning that bird house out about once a year. 
That stuff should be ideal for strawberries, as is.
The birds add nitrogen and moisture, mixing it rather deeply as they go.
Every now and then we turn the floor some with a pitchfork, but only to break up where the birds have packed, rather than stirred the material.

A mass of compost inside a greenhouse would be an ideal situation.
The material could be laid in of a mid-December for a first of the year heat source. The effect on the plants of the by product of carbon dioxide would be a very interesting study.

I envision a greenhouse sunk in the ground three or four feet with a foundation that allowed for two partitions. One would be the walk area, left unfilled with organic mass; the other, directly under where the plants would be set, to be filled with layers of sawdust and various animal manures.
The excess water draining from the plant flats would provide ample moisture for the compost. I'd leave the dirt floor under the biomass and only pour concrete for the walk area. That way there would be natural drainage that could also be supplemented if necessary. The excess might be captured outside, the greenhouse situated on a hill where drainage could be directed toward a larger compost pile or the garden, itself. Auto-perk manure tea....
As the season progressed, plants could be set directly in the aging compost.

Boy, I've just about talked myself into building one soon.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Forerunner said:


> I envision a greenhouse sunk in the ground three or four feet ...


This is a rough description of my dream greenhouse too. By lowering in about 4 feet it would go a long ways towards temp control. 

A few barrels of water could help too. 

I've been arguing with myself about the above ground framework. My "down to earth" side tells me to make a long lasting permanent framework. Then there's my dream side that tells me I could build a frame from pvc pipe and insert misters into the frame. Add a water connection and the frame would be my water source at convenient spots all around the house. The misters could be put on a timer/timers to auto water the perfect amount so the house would be less physical labor. The drawback would be that the pipe wouldn't last forever. It would have to be drained in freezing temps (which is only a couple weeks a year in my area)

I want several small greenhouses so I can grow a variety of veggies (like tomatoes, corn, (yeah, corn takes a lot of space, but a small block grown in a small greenhouse would provide pure seed) etc.) with no worries of cross pollination. The houses can be a sealed system with fans doing the pollinating. Maybe add some allergy filters that keep pollen from coming in with fresh air, or some other way to introduce fresh air without compromising the pollen factor. 

I always dream big, and every now and then a dream comes true!


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Mercy, Spinner...... 

You sound an awful lot like me when you dream/scheme out loud. My dream greenhouse is sunk in the ground, sits on a very heavy concrete foundation, and is built of bricks on the north wall and the northern portion of the east and west walls. I have some heavy stainless angle that would serve well for the window supports, and I have a couple carpenter friends who have an endless supply of vinyl/aluminum windows.....

I wouldn't need exorbitant size or multiple buildings. I'm pretty isolated down here so far as cross-pollination with neighbors would be concerned.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

bumping to the front page


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## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

Tell us about earthworms in compost. [Or should I say Post compost!!!]


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Reminds me of this guy... He's evidently selling the heck out of compost..

A lot of it waste from Turkey farms.

[ame]http://www.veoh.com/collection/s630345/watch/v192512K4a4nwkd#watch%3Dv192513sQpmyfxK[/ame]


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## Habitant (Jul 21, 2010)

Hello everyone , 
I had 600 gallons of waste veggie oil delivered as pig feed. Turns out the pigs dont like it so I am either going to spread on my 4000 sq ft garden or mix it with sawdust and use it to start my off my next years humanure compost. I will be planting veggies in about 3 weeks and I am not sure how well the oil will be decomposed by then (daytime temps are in the 60's) . If I decide to compost it with sawdust I will innoculate the sawdust/oil with soil to make sure its got the right little critters. Mixing with sawdust will be labour intensive so spreading it on the garden is my preffered approach . 

Anythoughs on how I should proceed would be appreciated.

Thank you.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Habitant said:


> Hello everyone ,
> I had 600 gallons of waste veggie oil delivered as pig feed. Turns out the pigs dont like it so I am either going to spread on my 4000 sq ft garden or mix it with sawdust and use it to start my off my next years humanure compost. I will be planting veggies in about 3 weeks and I am not sure how well the oil will be decomposed by then (daytime temps are in the 60's) . If I decide to compost it with sawdust I will innoculate the sawdust/oil with soil to make sure its got the right little critters. Mixing with sawdust will be labour intensive so spreading it on the garden is my preffered approach .
> 
> Anythoughs on how I should proceed would be appreciated.
> ...


Personally, I would convert it into bio-diesel. Seems like a waste of good fuel, which is becoming more expensive by the month. Surely you could find a nitrogen substitute for it?


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Habitant said:


> Hello everyone ,
> I had 600 gallons of waste veggie oil delivered as pig feed. Turns out the pigs dont like it so I am either going to spread on my 4000 sq ft garden or mix it with sawdust and use it to start my off my next years humanure compost. I will be planting veggies in about 3 weeks and I am not sure how well the oil will be decomposed by then (daytime temps are in the 60's) . If I decide to compost it with sawdust I will innoculate the sawdust/oil with soil to make sure its got the right little critters. Mixing with sawdust will be labour intensive so spreading it on the garden is my preffered approach .
> 
> Anythoughs on how I should proceed would be appreciated.
> ...


I'd pour it out on my dirt road. I've poured waste veg oil (with too much particulates.... flour, cornmeal, etc.) on my dirt road, and it turned into an oiled road... some of it's still 'solid' five years later. Now when I fix a spot on my dirt road, I'll put big rock in the bottom of the hole, SB2 on top, then plain dirt, then saturate it with oil.... never needs 'fixing' again.

I'd never dream of making an oil road in my garden... seeing what it does to to the top of my regular road...


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## Habitant (Jul 21, 2010)

Gabriele, I should have mentioned that this stuff came from a company that collects waste oil for biodiesel production and filters out impurities like bits of potatoes and mushrooms etc etc. I am getting what they are filtering out and whatever oil is unsuitable for biodiesel. 

Texican, thanks for the tip you may have just saved my new garden from being my new parking lot!


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Hot composting would stabilize the stuff.....I'd mix it with a really big pile, myself.

Definitely do not apply it directly to the garden.


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