# I see where hamburger flipper floppers



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

are protesting for $15.00 an hour. Man, when I retired 4yrs ago, I was making $13.25, and thought I was rich.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Someone is selling them the idea that what use to be part time jobs for kids starting out, are now suppose to keep families roof, shelter, and many want the extras that many think are necessities. (fancy tennis shoes, big screen tvs, nice new cars)

Times have changed.

(ETA: This is mostly because adults are needing to have some job somewhere. Times have changed.)


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Now the rest of the story.

In states where a lower class studio apartment costs AT LEAST $1500 a month rent, if they paid their help like the rest of the country does they would have no help as they would not be paying a living wage. 

Also I think I read a month or so ago that Snopes says it is a hoax, but I do not care enough to check. I do know that the last time I was in San Jose that the burger flippers were asking for $12 an hour, though, because they could not live on less. And no I am not talking about raising a family on $12 an hour I am saying that was what was needed to support one working class person.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Thing I see, is, that if a burger costs between $3 & $5, at say $8an hour, what they gonna cost at $15?

I see more and more women relearning to cook at home, and men also, as most aren't married now.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Then again, This might drive up marriage rates. A guy getting married so as to have 3 meals he THINKS he can afford now. LOL.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

If a guy gets married just to have a woman cook three meals a day he might find those are going to be "very expensive" vittles...


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## sdnapier (Aug 13, 2010)

FarmboyBill said:


> Then again, This might drive up marriage rates. A guy getting married so as to have 3 meals he THINKS he can afford now. LOL.


â¦and what does the woman receive????


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

yep light rain, that's why I put the word THINKS in caps

Nap, I suppose she would get a man who
, fairly or not makes as much or more than she does.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Minimum wage here is about $10/hr and it hasn't caused any change folks dining out habits.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Jack it by 1/2 again and see if anything happens.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

What I always found, was that if the job I had didn't pay enough, get a second job.

And if a guy is too lazy to fry his own burger...well, I guess he gets what he deserves.

Mon


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Im too lazy to fry my own hamburglers, lol. Course, I don't eat them either.

He gets WHO he deserves?? lol


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Uh, if you jack it by 1/2 again more people will have the money to eat out every now and then.


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## hawgsquatch (May 11, 2014)

I think they should get 15.00 an hour. Then the computer automation that will replace them will be justified and I can get a whopper for a buck again.

It's not a hoax, the local gov't here is trying for 12 bucks and hour. It's a scam designed to cover the rampant inflation that they are forcing on us.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

I'm a CNA in TN. Our pay tops out at around fifteen bucks an hour. I will be plenty mad if the guy cooking my burger starts making what I make to care for Alzheimer's patients who beat the crap out of me all day. Not that they don't need better pay. But maybe it's more that the entire pay scale for most of the US needs some adjusting.


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## hawgsquatch (May 11, 2014)

I think we should all get a thousand bucks an hour.

"That is a burger, fries, and a coke. One bjillion dollars please."


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

If minimum wage does go up, anyone want to be that minimum production doesn't go up?
Can't make a living flipping burgers? Get a different job. It isn't rocket science.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

So we cut pay and benefits for our men and women in the Armed Services......but Taco Bell workers think they are worth 15.00 an hour?

Wait, what?


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

It really does cost that much to live in California, New York, Hawaii, and other such places. At $15 a single adult is poor.

That was one advantage of living in the Midwest, by the way. The wages are lower but so is the cost of living.


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## hawgsquatch (May 11, 2014)

Terri said:


> It really does cost that much to live in California, New York, Hawaii, and other such places. At $15 a single adult is poor.
> 
> That was one advantage of living in the Midwest, by the way. The wages are lower but so is the cost of living.


I live in one of the most expensive places in California (on the north coast). I worked three full time jobs to put the ex and a kid through college. I now work the most dangerous job in America to get the last kid through school. Who says we are entitled to work only 40 hrs. a week? Only one generation was ever entitled to such a thing and they screwed it all up. If you want more, then get more, just don't steal it from me at the point of a government gun. Do you think the landlords are going to leave rents where they are when the poor people have more spending money?

Work harder, work longer, work smarter, and EARN what you want.


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## Ramblin Wreck (Jun 10, 2005)

I've wondered sometimes if we're not attacking the problem from the wrong end. If the total compensation packages for officers/directors/management at publicly traded companies (not privately held) were based upon the average wage/lowest wage of the workers who actually provided good and services, would we see better/fairer wages for all? I also wonder what would happen if we gave capital gains treatment to dividends returned to stockholders and taxed "gambling"/trading in the market at full rates.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

The problem as I see it is that you can't raise the bottom, you can only lower the middle and the top.
If you double minimum wage, all you will do is double what we pay for everything. The bottom will still be on the bottom, and the rest of us will be paying more for everything.
My nephew works in fast food, and he's all for raising the wage.
On the other hand, if he could pass the whiz quiz, he could make $20 an hour in a different job.
Unfortunately, he thinks life is a party and it's Mommy's job to keep him fed and his cell phone turned on.
When you are 26 years old and ride a skateboard to your minimum wage job, maybe the problem isn't the minimum wage.
(I'm just ranting about my nephew, not trying to disparage all who work in fast food)


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

The key part most seem to mis in minimum wage is minimum, it doesn't matter what it is or if it is set by the government or economics of the immediate area, it is still the minimum.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Allen W said:


> The key part most seem to mis in minimum wage is minimum, it doesn't matter what it is or if it is set by the government or economics of the immediate area, it is still the minimum.


Exactly
They act like they are topped out at the minimum wage.
Raise the minimum, you just bring everybody who worked to get ahead down closer to the minimum.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

When I worked at a glass factory 115yrs ago or less, We in Machine Repair had to take a lot of tests to get a big raise. I went from $8 something to $12 something. Not 2yrs later they were hiring mechanics in the door at a hair more than I was making after I having taken the tests.


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## hawgsquatch (May 11, 2014)

Ramblin Wreck said:


> I've wondered sometimes if we're not attacking the problem from the wrong end. If the total compensation packages for officers/directors/management at publicly traded companies (not privately held) were based upon the average wage/lowest wage of the workers who actually provided good and services, would we see better/fairer wages for all? I also wonder what would happen if we gave capital gains treatment to dividends returned to stockholders and taxed "gambling"/trading in the market at full rates.


What a great idea! Then we could punish the best minds and best producers and run them out of the industry. The best part is when the companies go broke we can all watch our retirement accounts tank. Why would anyone have thought that paying people at the top by what they produce would make other people want to attain that top status. Silly me, we should just take what the government mandates and be happy with it.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

You really do excel at sarcasm! When the CEO's and upper management make many multiples of what the folks physically doing the work make something has to give at some point. 

In WI companies get big tax breaks and then in the next year/s move their company out of the US. Yes, the owners that take the financial risk and the upper levels that spent big bucks on extended education and the workers that are superior in their job ability should make considerably more than the new or average employee, but should it be 100 times more ,500 times more, plus stock options and golden parachutes?


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

So long as it is a free country, the people who own businesses will hire at any wage an employee will take and pay themselves as much as they can out of profits. 

Part of our problem is that we have a huge underclass of people who feel "entitled" to wages they don't earn. Look at the unemployment lines; many of those people have NO saleable skills, or the skills they have are making buggy whips. Our welfare rolls are full of high-school drop-outs, people who goofed off in class, people who can hardly write a sentence in their own language. 

If all you know how to do is flip a hamburger, why in the dickens should you expect more than an employer is willing to pay? If you want more money, go get another job.
If you want more money, start your own hamburger chain, get a hamburger wagon. 

The streets of Tulsa are full of poor Mexicans who scrounged up a truck and are selling food on the streets. In ten years those poor Mexicans will be well-to-do Mexicans starting their kids on the American dream. 

I was once responsible, part of my job, for enforcing minimum wage laws. I have come to believe there should be no minimum wage laws. Let the welfare bums go back to mowing yards and cleaning houses, maids, yardmen, service station attendants, gardeners. Soon they would be educating their kids and figuring out ways to get ahead. 

Very soon there would be no more mothers telling their daughters to go out and get pregnant. (Yes, that happened in this little town)

And before you go ballistic, I am NOT talking about the honestly disabled, the mentally ill or the old. Those will always be with us, and charity demands that we care for them.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2014)

I must be ill.....I agree 100% with OX on a social issue....


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## lazyBum (Feb 27, 2012)

If they get $15 per hour then I'm quitting my high stress salary job. 

And I would expect to get a burger that I don't have to assemble myself. The meat is always hanging out one side. The ketchup and mustard oozes out the opposite side. Lettuce scattered randomly in the box or wrapper.

Maybe they will create a demand for more automation leading to jobs where I can put my skills to good use. Instead of wasting my potential at my current job.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Oxankle, do you believe that "no minimum wage" applies to service members?

Also do you think Pelosi deserves an $800000 pension? 

There is so much more to this discussion than welfare abusers getting away with undeserved money and rights of companies to do as they see fit.

Without any regulations we could go back to children working in factories and basically dying from conditions without repercussions. No wait, that would require us to still have factories and many of those have been closed and manufacturing has gone overseas so as to keep the top brass in clover... 

I am not a big union supporter but I would side with that side before capitalism without a conscience.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Terri said:


> Now the rest of the story.
> 
> In states where a lower class studio apartment costs AT LEAST $1500 a month rent, if they paid their help like the rest of the country does they would have no help as they would not be paying a living wage.
> 
> Also I think I read a month or so ago that Snopes says it is a hoax, but I do not care enough to check. I do know that the last time I was in San Jose that the burger flippers were asking for $12 an hour, though, because they could not live on less. And no I am not talking about raising a family on $12 an hour I am saying that was what was needed to support one working class person.


California high population areas are an economic pipe dream totally out of touch with reality and it is only getting worse.

In 1991 my employer offered some of us transfers to our newest development and production facility acquisition in northern California with lucrative raises and relocation bonuses.

That year I was salaried here at $42k a year and was offered a pay increase to $78k a year to transfer. When I crunched the numbers and realized that the buying power of the $78k out there would be only 60% of the buying power of my $42k a year here, I declined and never regretted my choice of not going to Silicon Valley.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Light Rain: Service members do not earn the minimum now. 

Pelosi does not get an eight hundred thousand dollar pension---no one in government gets that---she gets her government pension calculated exactly the same way ALL government pensions are calculated. However, she is a very rich woman and has gotten in on some sweet deals, so she won't starve. Besides all that she gets to ride in your airplane and drink your whiskey. Look it up.

Companies are "moving" their headquarters overseas because the US taxes corporations at higher rates than other countries. Then, when they distribute dividends, those who own stocks have to pay taxes on those dividends AGAIN. If Warren Buffet, who started with nothing, moves Burger King, don't you think there is a reason? 

Who said anything about safety and health or child labor regulations? They are there for a reason, I had a hand in enforcing them. The overtime laws are there for a reason too---without them you could be forced to work 80 hours per week and someone else would miss work. I'm talking only about the M/W, which was once reserved for young kids starting out, inexperienced hands, the most menial work. 

All work is honorable, even shining shoes (which was once my only money). What is dishonorable is demanding something one does not earn. 

When voters vote against the creators of work and in favor of those who promise pie in the sky you get what we've got.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

It is a simple matter of supply and demand.

Every time jobs are so hard to find that people will stand in line waiting for the chance to apply for work, some employers will treat their employees badly and often illegally. Nobody will dare complain.

Every time good work at the lower levels are hard to find then employers will treat their employees better, because otherwise they will lose them. 

So the top management will take a big chunk of company profits as payments to themselves because they can, they will make this possible by squeezing the wages of the lower paid workers because they can, and the only practical solution that I can see is for more people to work for themselves. 

Working for oneself or starting a small business is getting harder because of increasing regulations, and I think it is not a coincidence! Industry leaders and politicians would like to keep the power that they have, thank you very much! 

This has happened before in the day of the 19th century "robber baron" and no doubt it will happen again. Humans do not change very much. And I think there will always be friction, on again off again, between the employed and the employer.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

We watch a lot of Fox news, and I repeatedly see an advertisement for Start Up New York. When they say no business or property taxes for 10 yrs. how does that affect the business that have already been operating in NY during the economic slow downs and now have to compete against companies with drastically reduced overhead? 

Are these "sweet deals" just being offered to American owned companies or are they also going to foreign owned companies too? 

Is there a minimum number of employees they agree to hire? At what wage?

Should these companies be allowed to pay whatever they want (no minimum) while being subsidized by the other business and home owning taxpayers and probably the federal govt. 

It is not as simple as folks would like to make it because everything is connected to another economic layer.


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## hawgsquatch (May 11, 2014)

light rain said:


> Oxankle, do you believe that "no minimum wage" applies to service members?
> 
> Also do you think Pelosi deserves an $800000 pension?
> 
> ...


We already have a child labor problem. It is in those overseas countries that we have to patronize in order to compete with our own nanny state government. One might say our oppressive business climate has promoted child abuse worldwide. Out of sight out of mind.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

hawgsquatch said:


> We already have a child labor problem. It is in those overseas countries that we have to patronize in order to compete with our own nanny state government. One might say our oppressive business climate has promoted child abuse worldwide. Out of sight out of mind.


More is not always better. Americans seem to have trouble with this concept! Some limits on business is good: too much strangles business!


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

I too believe all work is honorable and have done a lot of manual work myself. We were only on welfare for a few months back in 1981 due to my husband getting out of service and trouble finding a job. When he did find a job it was at very low pay considering his electronic knowledge but he accepted because we found it humiliating to do otherwise. 

While the higher tax rate in the US is part of it I believe the companies moved the businesses out of the US ALSO to escape paying higher wages, benefits and realized when the workers are uneducated and desperate (and hungry) they will be silent and compliant. How many factory workers in India have burned to death recently because of being locked into their place of employment?

And I wonder about the families that you praise for their work ethic, how many tax dollars have gone into medical care and other supportive services to get their start in this land of opportunity? Isn't that a fair question?


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Light Rain: The families with work ethic get about as much tax dollars for medical care and highways, police, fire protection and public services as do the rest of us who hold or held jobs. 

The families who DON'T work get much more.

Go look up the story of Juan Legal and Juan illegal. Juan illegal gets a heap more government money than Juan legal. 

Now, to go back to your original thought: I do believe that the government policies of the last 20 years have moved jobs overseas and taken away work that formerly was done by people with minimal education or skill. At one time there were sewing factories all over Oklahoma---no more. The fabric mills of the SE are gone. Companies have moved factories to Mexico, China---all over. 

My son in law works for a manufacturer of auto parts. He spent a week in China not long ago inspecting plants his company OWNS there. Not a contractor's plant, the company's own plant. 

The world is becoming a much smaller place every day. Young people who neglect their education, those who refuse to learn a skill useful to the world are bound to a life of failure. 

Sometimes I wonder if perhaps the pyramids might not have been, not a grandiose memorial to a pharaoh, but a gigantic public works program to keep the masses employed.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Chuck, You said, let them be service station attendants. Wheres a service station anymore. This morning I went to Q Trip to get gas. I handed the gal $100. Went out and pumped. $42.02. I took another [email protected] in with me and laid it on the counter. she punched the buttons on the register, and handed me back the bills and [email protected]


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Now here's something for you-all to chew on:



> Now, to go back to your original thought: I do believe that the government policies of the last 20 years have moved jobs overseas and taken away work that formerly was done by people with minimal education or skill. At one time there were sewing factories all over Oklahoma---no more. The fabric mills of the SE are gone. Companies have moved factories to Mexico, China---all over.


Is it better for America if those companies build a factory in China or Ethopia, and pay their shift workers $2 an hour there? Those workers spend their wages in China and Ethiopia, as do the managers and engineers and other higher-level employers who earn more than the laborers. 

Or would it be better if we eliminated the minimum-wage law and encouraged that factory to move back here? Yes, the workers still might make $2 an hour (and we might have to let in some legal immigrants willing to work for that wage) but they -- and their higher-paid supervisors -- would be spending their earnings in the local community, creating jobs for fellow Americans. 

Right now, our economy isn't recapturing any of that money, and that's part of why we're hurting, IMO.


> You really do excel at sarcasm! When the CEO's and upper management make many multiples of what the folks physically doing the work make something has to give at some point.


What you're leaving out of the equation is the fact that no board of directors ever approaches a random stranger on a street corner and says, "Hi! We'd like to make you our CEO, and pay you $47 million per year. Would you be up for that?"

Nope; CEOs are chosen because they are perceived to be especially able or gifted at what they do. And I imagine most drive a hard bargain to command the wages they do.

The typical fast-food worker generally doesn't have any special skills to justify a higher wage, and his job has been structured so that he doesn't need them, either. Most minimum-wage workers seem disinclined to organize and bargain collectively, which is the one thing that might give them some leverage. 

So, if he has little value to the company, and he's not willing to step up and negotiate for higher wages, is it surprising that the burger-flipper earns so little?


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Dang, the world is coming to an end. Willow Girl and I agree on something. 

However, those overseas workers who are getting the low wages are immensely more educated and skilled than the "hamburger flippers" who are demanding $15 per hour.

These overseas workers are earning perhaps $3 per hour equivalent in our money (in 2009 it was less than $2) while operating numerically controlled lathes, automated machinery, presses, mills and robotic assembly lines. People with such skills in this country are making good livings. 

Our problem is with people who have little education, little work ethic and no useful skills. They are the people who screwed around when young, learned nothing in school and had no ambition beyond beer and Saturday night. Such people are and will always be the biblical hewers of wood and drawers of water.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Willow girl and Oxankle, does that mean you "BOTH" agree that it is unwise for the fast food workers to NOT organize and bargain collectively? Or did I misread something?


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## hawgsquatch (May 11, 2014)

I could live rather well on two bucks an hour in Uganda or perhaps Peru. It depends on the lifestyle one is prepared to accept.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

FarmboyBill said:


> Thing I see, is, that if a burger costs between $3 & $5, at say $8an hour, what they gonna cost at $15?


The CEO's of corporations get big raises and bonuses. Doesn't seem to raise the cost of the product.

Aren't you just a little bit miffed that companies like Walmart, whose owners receive billions in profits, won't pay their employees enough so they have to get food stamps to feed their families?


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Dutchie: It is a free country; Walmart has capitalized on the fact that the country has exported its high-pay jobs to countries with low wages. 

Any company is free to do what Walmart did, and they are doing it. When large manufacturing companies leave (Wagoner once had a sewing factory and an auto parts manufacturer, Muskogee had a manufacturer of metal tool boxes), there are only service industries left. Grocers, druggists, plumbers, carpenters, hamburger flippers etc. Wages go down.

If you've noticed, Walmart is now stuck with higher costs under Obamacare--that was not an accident. 

An economist quoted in today's paper says that the Fed cannot continue the low interest policy much longer and that inflation is going to bite us where it counts.
If that happens,the MW must go up or be done away with---it cannot stay where it is.


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

According to what I saw on the news the other day, the average pay for full time Walmart employee is $12.50 hour. In my neck of the woods, the average factory job starts between $9-$11 hour.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Even at $12.50 the Walmart employee does not feed his family very well.
What is that, $25,000 per year if the employee gets a full year's work?

Of course the managers get far more; they do quite well.
Ox


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Oxankle said:


> Even at $12.50 the Walmart employee does not feed his family very well.
> What is that, $25,000 per year if the employee gets a full year's work?
> 
> Of course the managers get far more; they do quite well.
> Ox


What is the skill level of the average Walmart worker? Is this really a career choice for people?


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I have on occasion asked workers at WM how they felt about their jobs. All were more or less positive about it.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

light rain said:


> You really do excel at sarcasm! When the CEO's and upper management make many multiples of what the folks physically doing the work make something has to give at some point.
> 
> In WI companies get big tax breaks and then in the next year/s move their company out of the US. Yes, the owners that take the financial risk and the upper levels that spent big bucks on extended education and the workers that are superior in their job ability should make considerably more than the new or average employee, but should it be 100 times more ,500 times more, plus stock options and golden parachutes?


Yes, owners move companies out of the US. They are now doing it to avoid certain corp taxes. And if you passed laws to limit CEOs and owners compensation, more companies would simply decide to move to Canada, Bahamas, or Grand Cayman. Those countries would welcome the jobs that came with the company HQs and CEO / owner pay would remain unchanged. 

Economics can not be changed by legislation. If raising the min wage, which has been done many times before, would fix poverty, then why isn't poverty fixed?


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

DEKE01, I do not necessarily believe poverty can be changed by legislation. When the corporate world is manipulating money in ways that are breaking US laws, legislation is the way we, as a country, address the activity, correct? 

Legislation governs our stopping at stop signs, contracts, wills and if someone injuries us, legislation is our recourse.

Do you think the US owned big companies would keep the work in the US if they lowered the corporate tax rate to that of Canada's? Why do Toyota and VW build factories over here while our own companies go to other countries?

I am not against big companies, small business or even government but to only look at one aspect of problem is not a way to get an accurate picture or possible solution. It only serves to manipulate the discussion to get the desired outcome.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

light rain said:


> DEKE01, I do not necessarily believe poverty can be changed by legislation. When the corporate world is manipulating money in ways that are breaking US laws, legislation is the way we, as a country, address the activity, correct?
> 
> Legislation governs our stopping at stop signs, contracts, wills and if someone injuries us, legislation is our recourse.
> 
> ...


If you don't think poverty can be cured with legislation, why are you advocating increasing the min wage? 

If companies are breaking laws, they should be prosecuted. That has nothing to do with min or max wages. Foreign companies who bring work to the US are not subject to the tax law that US based companies are trying to avoid. You don't understand the tax problem. 

When legislation causes a price of anything to rise, less of that product or service is consumed. That is a law of economics that can not be changed by the law of man. It is why we have self serve gas, automated teller machines, Redbox movies vs Blockbuster stores, self checkout groceries, toll booths with automated readers instead of clerks, etc. 

Companies have a fiduciary duty to be profitable and no matter what laws you pass, they will seek to work within the laws of the land to the best advantage of the company owners. If moving the HQ office out of a state or the US saves a big expense, that is what is going to happen. If moving out of the US allows them to hire a CEO that the owners think will make the company more profitable, that is what they will do.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

FarmboyBill said:


> I have on occasion asked workers at WM how they felt about their jobs. All were more or less positive about it.


In this economy, they are probably just glad to have a job.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

DEKE01, you did not answer my question. If the govt. through popular pressure lowers the corporate tax rate to that of Canada will the US companies stay over here and hire Americans?


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

light rain said:


> DEKE01, you did not answer my question. If the govt. through popular pressure lowers the corporate tax rate to that of Canada will the US companies stay over here and hire Americans?


some would, some wouldn't. tax rate is only one criteria for where businesses locate. 

you didn't answer my Q. This thread is about min wage law. If you don't think a higher min wage will create less poverty, why are you for it?


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Light Rain:
Toyota, etc, are ALREADY based in foreign countries. They ALREADY have the tax advantage that Burger King, etc are seeking by putting their headquarters in another country. 

In addition to that, the car companies from Japan put their factories in states with low wages and non-union workers, men and women who have not fallen victim to the big union virus. Add that all up; they have a low tax advantage, low wage states, non-union workers and no overseas shipping costs. Plus, their executives like to come to the states where they live in big houses and have room to roam. Try living in a Japanese apartment.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

I said I do not believe legislation will "necessarily" eliminate poverty. I do believe poverty is sort of like cancer. It has many causes. I think raising the minimum wage could help some people a great deal. In other cases it would be wasted. 

We, as a country, spend/send millions to other countries and their causes. And some of those countries would destroy us without a second thought if they could. 

If we don't endeavor to have jobs that pay a wage to cover housing, medical care and food people WILL look to other ways to supplement their income. Some may just decide to work under the table but others will get into less acceptable sources of free enterprise. If they work under the table we lose out on that taxable income. If they go into criminal activities we will either not prosecute offenders or we'll be paying 60,000 to 100,000 dollars a year to incarcerate them. Maybe the legislation to promote a living wage wouldn't be such a bad financial venture after all.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Light Rain; you have knowingly or otherwise touched upon a point of governmental concern. Our leaders--the president, the FBI, the 50 governors, the states Nat'l Guard and every police department in the country knows this. If, for example, our government were to shut off food stamps (by whatever name they are known now) and welfare we would have riots within a week. Ferguson would look like a church picnic in comparison. Even an attack by a foreing nation that disrupted our payments and food distribution system would do this.

Why do you think the NSA has been stockpiling ammo and weapons?


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## Ramblin Wreck (Jun 10, 2005)

Here's a link to a study Harvard just released on the topic of the increasing wealth disparity in the country and how it is harming the economy. I thought it was interesting and spot on, but I don't think it will change any minds here. I think everyone is pretty much entrenched, and Lord knows I don't want this place to become another General Chat. (As an aside, Teddy Roosevelt went after the monopolies and his trust busting really helped the U.S. economy in the long term. Governments can and should interdict into the economy. It's one of the things it's supposed to do...ie., "promote the general welfare".) 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ameri...worsen-harvard-study-110255435--business.html


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

I have to agree with Wreck on that point. For example; we should have jailed the people responsible for the housing crash. We should jail inside traders, we should jail white collar crooks in general instead to giving them six months in a posh rehab prison.

The government is already fighting companies that get too much market share--For example Dollar General, Dollar Tree and Family Dollar. 

The problem is the fact that big cheeses get special attention---Pelosi's husband got the contract to sell of post office land and buildings; look who the stockholders were in the failed solar power mess. 

It will take congressional action to stop the companies from moving offshore---you cannot stop them without changing our tax code--and it should be done.


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

FarmboyBill said:


> are protesting for $15.00 an hour. Man, when I retired 4yrs ago, I was making $13.25, and thought I was rich.


 Didn't take time to read the complete thread, so just responding to the first post, Bill.

What makes them think they are worth 15 an hour? They have nothing invested, other than the time it takes to show up for a job. No skills, little to no training, very little education is required? Yet most won't even show up?

Almost all my life work has been by myself, and I'm thankful for that. I've done small amounts of work around crews, as well as hired help myself.

Some help isn't worth minimum wage...meaning most help! Some barely meets muster for minimum, while some are worth every cent you can pay them and more. But they are rare.

I just believe in paying what they are worth!

Most deserve to be hungry! Yet our system has a different say.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Gary; if you let them get good and hungry you'd be surprised what good workers they'd turn out to be. 

Kid here in town sat on his behind all summer, a senior in HS, while the peach farmer down the road was looking for help. Kid would not take that job "because they might want me to work on week ends". His folks finally told him to start looking and he found a stocker's job at a big box.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Our minimum wage is not $15/hr but much higher than the US and we don't see too many lazy folks taking advantage but given that it pays way better than welfare, we do see a lot less people depending on the system.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Go figure.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Growing up I heard in my household, "those lazy bums won't go out a work a job". 

Now I hear "those lazy bums WILL work a job but they don't deserve any more, a livable wage because they don't work hard enough, didn't strive for a better education, used their money for "sordid" expenditures. Seemed like the finish line (and the rules for the race has changed). I don't expect anything I say will influence anyone's opinions. But I do think there are days of adversity awaiting us all... Good thing prayer and hope are equally available to all economic levels.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2014)

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> According to what I saw on the news the other day, the average pay for full time Walmart employee is $12.50 hour. In my neck of the woods, the average factory job starts between $9-$11 hour.


That's what I make. I've gotten raises to bring me up to $12.50 and I have experience and marketable skills. I just work in a dying industry, but I'm proud of what I do.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Toffee - if minimum wage is increased, apparently you would get a $2.50 an hour pay raise. But, can your employer keep you if you get that much more, and anyone else that works for that same pay?

I hope you don't get adversely effected by this.


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

light rain said:


> Growing up I heard in my household, "those lazy bums won't go out a work a job".
> 
> Now I hear "those lazy bums WILL work a job but they don't deserve any more, a livable wage because they don't work hard enough, didn't strive for a better education, used their money for "sordid" expenditures. Seemed like the finish line (and the rules for the race has changed). I don't expect anything I say will influence anyone's opinions. But I do think there are days of adversity awaiting us all... Good thing prayer and hope are equally available to all economic levels.


Rules are always evolving, dangit! Now, most cant even pass a simple urine test! I know some jobs where people they know can pass are called in two to three times a year! There is no random about it!

Some jobs are paid by number of men on the job, regardless of quality! What an eye opener for me!

Still...for small businesses, it's hard to find a willing worker who can pass a drug test, and with a drivers license. Yet who will show up at hours designated.

Yeppers...let them do something constructive, like feed their own family!


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

Oxankle said:


> Gary; if you let them get good and hungry you'd be surprised what good *workers *they'd turn out to be...


Unfortunately, these days it has become more like this:



Oxankle said:


> Gary; if you let them get good and hungry you'd be surprised what good *thieves* they'd turn out to be...



.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Toffee; What industry do you work in?

Drug tests I know nothing about---thieves I have some experience with. Unfortunately C. Sunshine is correct to a degree--some will steal before they work. Only when the country is convinced that working is more honorable than sitting on the dole will we get back on an even keel.


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

I worked for two years as a lab tech in a cast iron foundry. I tested molding sand several times a day to assure proper permeability, clay content, and moisture content. I also analyzed samples from every heat of iron for proper levels of 17 elements, primarily silicon, manganese, carbon, phosphorus, copper, and on ductile iron also checked levels of magnesium, chromium, tin, and a few other trace elements.
After two years on the job I was only making $12 hour, but I worked enough hours I made over $34,000 my first year, at $11.50 hour.
The second year I was there, production had slacked off to the point i was very lucky to get 25 hours a week. The buildings we worked in were falling apart, equipment was constantly breaking down, heck, the computer in my lab hooked up to the mass spectrometer was a 1992 Compaq 486. This was in 2013. I left the company when company shortcuts were causing bad injuries to employees on a weekly basis and the company refused to make needed repairs.
Since then I have been a homemaker. But I produce easily $10,000+ in groceries, $3,000-$4,000 heat (firewood) per year, plus the very small amounts of money I can make selling a little produce here and there.
My point is, sometimes more money isn't the answer. Sure, I had some chickens and a garden while still working outside the home, but now I have more birds, bigger gardens, rabbits, and pigs. When working I paid for lp for heat as well as bought some firewood, now I cut all of my own wood.
I don't ever have to worry about daycare, and my kids never come home to an empty house.
Sure, money gets a little tight at times and very tight at other times, but we make it through.
But, what I do now requires a lot more work, and more time. So anyone wanting to better themselves financially needs to start looking at options. Granted if my wonderful wife didn't have her job of 15+ years with good insurance, I would still be working for someone else, but every situation is different, and every solution is not more money from the same job.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2014)

Oxankle said:


> Toffee; What industry do you work in?
> 
> Drug tests I know nothing about---thieves I have some experience with. Unfortunately C. Sunshine is correct to a degree--some will steal before they work. Only when the country is convinced that working is more honorable than sitting on the dole will we get back on an even keel.


I work in a restaurant in their bakery. I'm a professional bread baker, in truth. My husband is a chef with his associates in culinary arts. I have no schooling and I get paid more than he does.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

LOL, Toffee, that is NOT a dying industry here. Some restaurants still make pies and cakes, not many make rolls. Most of the big grocery stores have a cake/pie/rolls/bread section for goods made on site. 

I suspect that Walmart ships in already prepared mixes for each item they bake, but they bake it on site. Neighbor lady makes and decorates cakes for them.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2014)

Oxankle said:


> LOL, Toffee, that is NOT a dying industry here. Some restaurants still make pies and cakes, not many make rolls. Most of the big grocery stores have a cake/pie/rolls/bread section for goods made on site.
> 
> I suspect that Walmart ships in already prepared mixes for each item they bake, but they bake it on site. Neighbor lady makes and decorates cakes for them.


Doing it from scratch and having the skills to do it is becoming rare. Most of the grocery stores are switching to ordering more frozen products that are either thaw and sell or thaw, bake, then sell. I have worked in a grocery store and now work in a restaurant. The difference between now and 15-20 years ago is that instead of each restaurant making theirs from scratch on site, they are ordering in the product frozen. The restaurant I work in now has about a dozen accounts. It's great for the business owner, but I would rather see a thriving industry that can make money without needing the support of the rest of the restaurant or grocery store. Trust me, real bakers are a dying breed. And I'm not referring to people who bake a cake or load of bread here and there or who work in Hostess factories.


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