# LGD crosses (breeding)



## JPiantedosi (Apr 23, 2012)

Ok. I know that alot of folks use LGDxLGD crosses generally some GPx?? breeding.
However I come from field trial German Shorthairs and Pointers and even though I have seen (and owned) a few nice "drops" it is not really viewed as a good thing. besides the issues of papers and pedigree you really never know which cheracteristics of a given breed will show up in a cross.

But i see folks cross breeding LGDs almost as often as you see them doing purebred breedings. 

Now, My question is this...... As long as you stick with working LGDs is it more or less possible to cross any breeds of LGD and expect to get good results? Are there some crosses that folks tend to stay away from? Are some better than others?

The reason I ask is we currently have 2 male LGDs 3/4 sarplaninac X 1/4GP, and I am negotiating a deal on a pair of GPxAnatolian pups for our other farm. Locally true working LGDs are kinda hard to come by and at a later date I would consider breeding one of my SarpxGPs to one of the GPxAnatolians for replacement stock. Or am I better off to just run these dogs and replace them with bought dogs when the time comes?

Hopefully this makes sense

Thanks
Jim


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

If the dogs do the same job the same way, you rarely have any more wasteage in a crossbreed litter than a purebred. For example you'll get just as many good wolfing hounds from crossing a top notch July & a hard Croghan as you will pure breeding either. You start getting waste when you cross different styles of dog but don't want one of the styles, say a pointer to springer but wanting a rock solid point. But a lot of that is personal preference too. Like crossing an open jagdterrier to a silent patterdale, if you don't give rat's butt either way you'll get dogs that use their voice to various degrees, butt most will put fur at the end of the run & if they can they'll kill it for you.


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## OurLilHomestead (Jan 19, 2008)

We are fairly new to the LGD breeds. We have one dog that's a Great Pyrenese mixed with an Anatolian Sheperd. He is such a great dog, that he has trained our Rottie how to work. We have another Great Pyrenese but she is mixed with Komodore & though she's a bit young, she knows her job too. She is much smaller than the other LGD.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

LGD/LGD crosses are usually fine. The only think you need to watch for is crossing only dogs that have similar guarding styles. For example, Central Asian Shepherd dogs don't really bond with stock.....they are more of a perimeter guard type. Crossing that with a Pyr might result in some odd guarding behavior. But crossing ASD with Pyr is fine. Many people try crossing to produce a certain type....such as shorter coats of the ASD, less barking like the ASD but gentler disposition of the pyr but genetics don't really work that way. You will get a mix of everything.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

I think the reason they cross Anatolians and Pyrs might be that there just aren't very many ASD in my area. I saw a CL ad recently, where a guy was selling Bernese Mountain Dog/Pyr crosses for $500! I didn't sell my Anatolians (purebred) for that much! Guess I am behind the times.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

sadly, "designer breeds" AKA mutts seem to sell just as good or in many cases BETTER than purebred of either parent! I know there are very few ASDs in my area too, I had to "import" them from Missouri. I am glad I did...they handle the South Carolina summers much better than the heavy coated Pyrs. I am not sure why more farmers around here don't use them.


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## tracerracer (Oct 6, 2012)

My pup is a cross, and I got her partly because I couldn't afford 'purebred'......... ASD, for instance, I really like this breed, BUT, 'locally' ( with in 100 miles one way) purebred run 1500.00 for 'NON'breeding dogs...... IF, I decided to breed, it would be 2500 .......... Sorry, I won't agree or pay that .......... Purebred, certified and papered every way to Sunday means less than squat to me, I just want a healthy working dog, which I have now  )


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## boerboy (Oct 7, 2012)

Very very useful thread

One question though, why no one mentioned Boerboel?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

BarbadosSheep said:


> The only think you need to watch for is crossing only dogs that have similar guarding styles.


And Pyrs guard by barking. This can be a huge turn off for some people.

I've never met anyone who says "Gee, I sure am sorry I'm stuck with half this litter of purebred pups I can't even give away - I wish I'd bred some mutts instead."


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## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

As long as the crosses are from real working lines and work, there's little reason to sell them cheap, but to overprice them is ridiculous. People who do overprice dogs they claim are real working animals are full of shyt and I avoid them. But many people breed anything and everything for money these days. 
My LGD mix was $400, guy has a farm where they work, but he's also just breeding for more money. Pups were thin, definitely underfed, worse yet, other's defended him, saying it was normal and common. Common doesn't make it acceptable and no animal should you be able to feel all spine tips and rips through thick fur w/o even adding pressure. 
But whatever, she's healthy and fit now that I have her and is doing a fair job for a pup. Hot fence combined with a LGD dog, my problem was solved. 


Boerboel is a rare dog and a mastiff, I wouldn't want to take on that type of dog. Might work for some, but I couldn't keep one. 
It's tendency to attack rather than warn can be a liability, it's also a South African dog, haven't heard of them much here at all.


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## boerboy (Oct 7, 2012)

secuono said:


> Boerboel is a rare dog and a mastiff, I wouldn't want to take on that type of dog. Might work for some, but I couldn't keep one.
> It's tendency to attack rather than warn can be a liability, it's also a South African dog, haven't heard of them much here at all.


Is there a difference in obedience between GP/ASD/Mix compared to Boerboel? I hear that ASD/ASDMix could be very independent to the extent to choose to decide itself and stick to it.


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## boerboy (Oct 7, 2012)

I search for ASD/GP sale and I don't find much in Oregon. But if I look up Petfinder.com there are several for adoption (mostly without papers/rescued). I am confused. I wish to find someone who raises ASD/GP in Oregon in their farm with live stock etc and breeds sells them too


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

tracerracer said:


> My pup is a cross, and I got her partly because I couldn't afford 'purebred'......... ASD, for instance, I really like this breed, BUT, 'locally' ( with in 100 miles one way) purebred run 1500.00 for 'NON'breeding dogs...... IF, I decided to breed, it would be 2500 .......... Sorry, I won't agree or pay that .......... Purebred, certified and papered every way to Sunday means less than squat to me, I just want a healthy working dog, which I have now  )


That is pretty bad. I sold my pups for $250, but they weren't registered. They made some good dogs, though. I came on here with puppies and got beat to death with people wanting OFA certified and Xrays. Sorry, people, my male is 6 years old now, and his hips and eyes are fine. I sold my puppies elsewhere. 

By the time you have a litter of puppies @ 10+, you have some serious money in worming, shots, and FOOD! I just bought another female. I've got $600 in her at nine weeks old. She looks like a good 'un, though. I'm happy. 

I had Pyrs before I found Anatolians. They LOVE to bark! If my Anatolian barks, I'm looking to see what's wrong. I also don't miss grooming that heavy Pyr coat. Either breed wants to guard 200 acres, more or less. We have 200 acres, so it works out. 

My male is a flock dog. He sticks tight to the flock. I'm hoping this new pup can become the perimeter dog, with Zeus as back-up.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

sugumarg said:


> Is there a difference in obedience between GP/ASD/Mix compared to Boerboel? I hear that ASD/ASDMix could be very independent to the extent to choose to decide itself and stick to it.


I'm not familiar with Boerboel. I will say that I've heard people saying that their Pyr or ADS won't come when called. 

My dogs come EVERY time I call them. Why? Because, once they come to me, they know they will get scratches and petting. I socialize my dogs. I can't afford to lose the farm because some visitor got bitten. 

So LOVE your dog, no matter what breed you get. I like to say that Anatolians can resist anything but love. They will guard just as well as a dog that's feral. I've seen some of those poor dogs, matted and afraid of people. Such a shame.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I agree with you Judy. It is a shame when folks don't socialize these dogs. My dogs ADORE me and come running when I enter the pasture. right now they are in with two dexter cattle. the dogs love the cattle and are always with them. Yesterday I entered the pasture to put hay in the goat's hay rack. I alway carry a large stick because the Dexter bull is not trustworthy to be around. As I started unloading hay, the bull started getting close to me. The dogs both positioned themselves between me and the bull and growled at him. As much as they love that bull, they love me more and wanted to protect me from him. I have spent a lot of time loving on those two dogs and it shows. They are wonderful guardians and wonderful dogs.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

sugumarg said:


> Very very useful thread
> 
> One question though, why no one mentioned Boerboel?


A Boerboel is not a Livestock guardian breed. Nothing would be gained by mixing it.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Well, I've learned from experience that most any dog can be trained to do whatever you want it to do. I mostly keep with service-type dogs (shepherds and labs). Even "mixed" they have baby-sat my day-old goat kids.

At this time I have a full blood chocolate lab who lets me know if anything unusual occurs near our 6 acres. The entire goat herd learned to run "toward" the barking dog from a "mixed" shepherd/lab/wolf dog that has intimidated everything around and baby-sat while does were out grazing.

This year I'm getting a full blood German shepherd and a full blood anatolian shepherd(both females) as I want the anatolian to live/guard goats and the GS to be more around myself & David. Our Lab will continue to roam, hunt and alert us to whatever. [Yesterday this lab brought a squirrel into the house. OMG was he beaming with pride. He had been stalking squirrels for quite awhile and I never thought he would ever catch one; but he did. It is now buried next to the fig tree for "curing".  ]

So pure blood or mixed, dogs are pretty much what their owners train them to be. So are goats. (My goats walk slowly beside me when I'm going up a hill and let me lean on them if need be...especially Sir Alginon my 250 lb buck.)


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

motdaugrnds said:


> Well, I've learned from experience that most any dog can be trained to do whatever you want it to do.


You need more experience.  While you can, at a stretch, train most any dog to perform a behavior they are physically capable of doing, it will be MUCH easier and the dog will enjoy it more if he has been bred to do a particular job. For example, maybe you could train a pointer to herd sheep, but you'll have much better luck using a Border Collie. And I'm sure you could train a Border Collie to point, but why not let the Pointer do it, since it's strongly instinctive for him? 

Likewise, you could try to train a wolfdog to guard livestock, but you'll have much better luck using a Pyr or Anatolian. Everything is so much easier and more effective when you choose your breed based on what you want him to do.



> This year I'm getting a full blood German shepherd and a full blood anatolian shepherd(both females) as I want the anatolian to live/guard goats and the GS to be more around myself & David.


Why two females? They will probably fight when they're mature--both breeds are known for same-sex aggression. While you can *manage* same-sex aggression if you are diligent, you can't really "train" it out. So if you insist on two females, best make sure to keep them separated.



> So pure blood or mixed, dogs are pretty much what their owners train them to be.


That would be nice if only it were true. Are you one of those folks who believe Pit Bulls won't fight with other dogs if you raise them right?

By the way, the correct terminology for dogs is "purebred" not "full blood".


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

motdaugrnds said:


> Well, I've learned from experience that most any dog can be trained to do whatever you want it to do. I mostly keep with service-type dogs (shepherds and labs). Even "mixed" they have baby-sat my day-old goat kids.


LGD breeds are not like regular dogs. They have thousands of years of thinking for themselves and not looking to humans for direction so they don't see the learn things like most dogs do. Sure, they can learn some things and will obey some commands, but not like you are used to. Labs and Shepherds have a huge desire to please us humans....LGDs don't.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Yes, my experience has centered around German Shepherds, labs and mixed shepherd breeds; so I can certainly understand where I could be misguided as to the training of other breeds. I still stand behind what I believe to be a generalfact, i.e. a dog is the way it is because of its training or lack of training no matter what the breed.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

well, by that logic, you could use a Wolfhound to be a guardian dog or a beagle to be a police dog. Or maybe a Maltese to hunt rabbits. Certain breeds have behavioral traits that have been enhanced through generations of selective breeding. Training cannot overcome those traits and behaviours. Livestock guardian dogs have prey drive bred out of them. They have nurturing traits bred into them. They also have become problem solvers and self thinkers. These are not traits that are common with the German Shepherd Dog or Labrador Retriever. I think once you actually get a LGD breed, you will see what those of us who have these dogs already understand. they are really very, very different. Highly intelligent, but without a huge desire to please humans. They know their jobs and take the necessary action to accomplish it.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I really don't look for perfection, i.e. the perfectly genetically bred dog for a particular task. That is just not what I need as I'm not a "breeder".

As for having two females together being a recipie for fighting upon their maturation, this simply has not held true for me. Maybe it is the small size of our homestead (just 6 acres completely fenced) and the way I introduce each new arrival. Below is one of my favorite pictures. Both are females with the black one being "purebred" lol and the cream colored one being a mixed breed (anatolian, chow, lab, wolf). The one on top was literally trained to guard the herd of goats by the cream colored one as, when I was unable to be out in the pasture with them, I hooked the dark one's leash onto the collar of the cream one. Cherokee (black one) was brought into our home immediately after she was weaned and was kept in the house with the cream one, on a leash would walk with the cream one and was trained by Apache (the cream one). At the time this pup was brought into our family, Apache was already grown (4 yrs old). Apache always let it be known SHE WAS BOSS (after me of course); and even though Cherokee was an alpha female, she reluctantly let Apache be boss. You can see by the picture how tolerant Apache is of Cherokee. Sadly I was never able to find an alpha male Cherokee would accept; so I was never able to get her bred. (I lost Apache when she was about 10 human years old from a bone that got stuck in her gut; and about 4 yrs later I lost Cherokee from the bite of a water moccasin ... only poisonous snake found on the place in years...oh except for a couple of "grown" copperheads that we discovered in dead winter trying to get warm under the "door" of our chicken house.)

I do know some dogs are genetically inclined to do certain jobs better than other breeds. This is not an issue for me. I simply know the dogs I've had I've been able to train to do anything needed...from babysitting baby goats to carrying tools and mail for me and helping me upstairs...plus protecting the place "together".


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

motdaugrnds said:


> I still stand behind what I believe to be a generalfact, i.e. a dog is the way it is because of its training or lack of training no matter what the breed.


As a trainer who comes from a long line of trainers/breeders I have to say that is logic does not extend to many breeds who were created to work without your input. Most LGDs are going to trust themselves far more than they trust you, and they resist much training on principle. While they can be taught manners, and basic commands, and yes, your interaction with them will mold their personality, they are what they are. They care little about your ideas of what they should be. It would take an incredible amount of time and will to train an LGD the way that you would train most other breeds. 

Nearly all dog breeds were created for a specific job, many were created to be highly trainable, like the GSD and lab. Both of which are members of one of the working groups created to work _alongside_ humans _with_ human input; the Working Group, Herding Group, and Sporting Group. These dogs are meant for something _very_ different than and LGD.

I would no more choose a lab as an LGD than I would choose a poodle as a herding dog. A lab is a sporting dog. Many of their breed traits would be working dead against them in a LGD role. A GSD is a working dog. They have prey drive (the same instinct that all herding/shepherd work is built upon). Yes, you could, with some luck, have a lab or GSD safely stay with your flock, but neither dog will excel at their job, nor would they ever be as trustworthy or effective at it as the breeds who have thousands of years of instinct working in their favor.



motdaugrnds said:


> I still stand behind what I believe to be a generalfact, i.e. a dog is the way it is because of its training or lack of training no matter what the breed.


An untrained lab is a very different creature than an untrained Anatolian. An untrained dachshund is a very different dog than an untrained mastiff. This is the very _reason_ for breeds. Genetic instinct is fundamental. Especially when talking about a group of dogs who exist almost exclusively on instinct.

Such logic is what is often behind the dangerous, and often random, combination of genetics in boutique breeding: complete disregard for ancient genetics with the ignorant belief that 'a dog is a dog'.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

CageFreeFamily said:


> As a trainer who comes from a long line of trainers/breeders I have to say that is logic does not extend to many breeds who were created to work without your input. Most LGDs are going to trust themselves far more than they trust you, and they resist much training on principle. While they can be taught manners, and basic commands, and yes, your interaction with them will mold their personality, they are what they are. They care little about your ideas of what they should be. It would take an incredible amount of time and will to train an LGD the way that you would train most other breeds.
> 
> Nearly all dog breeds were created for a specific job, many were created to be highly trainable, like the GSD and lab. Both of which are members of one of the working groups created to work _alongside_ humans _with_ human input; the Working Group, Herding Group, and Sporting Group. These dogs are meant for something _very_ different than and LGD.
> 
> ...


Love this, except you might actually have a fair chance of making a herding dog from a poodle. They are descended from continental water dogs that herded waterfowl into nets. This technique was used for at least several hundred years before firearms created te need for retrievers, a technique that is less than two hundred years old.


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

Pops2 said:


> Love this, except you might actually have a fair chance of making a herding dog from a poodle. They are descended from continental water dogs that herded waterfowl into nets. This technique was used for at least several hundred years before firearms created te need for retrievers, a technique that is less than two hundred years old.


Excellent! I knew that poodles were a waterfowl dog, but did not know about the herding aspect. Color me educated! :bow:
I grew up on the dog show circuit and herding/hunting trial circuit and have never outgrown my fascination with breeds and their history. It always saddened me to see so many purposeful breeds get turned into poufy, goofy, stocky, big boned show dog versions of their original selves.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Goodness, I feel "pounced" on! I already said I'm not a breeder!


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## oceantoad (May 21, 2009)

CageFreeFamily,

How is Joplin working out?

Any problems?

Her sister is in a paddock with 8 mature goats and 5 babies, along with her dad, mom, and 6 chickens

The sister has slimed the necks of a couple of young ones, but no injuries.

I think she will be a real moose when she gets full grown.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

motdaugrnds said:


> Goodness, I feel "pounced" on! I already said I'm not a breeder!


No need to feel pounced on. I think most folks (including me) just wanted to point out the flaws in your "it's all how you raise and train them" theory.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Pops2 said:


> Love this, except you might actually have a fair chance of making a herding dog from a poodle.


I used to groom a Standard that herded cattle in FL. LOL, I used to clip him very short. I never, ever needed to trim that dogs nails though.


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

oceantoad said:


> CageFreeFamily,
> 
> How is Joplin working out?


She's doing great! We had some submissive urination to work through, but she is working very well. Got herself stolen this morning, but we got them back and filed a police report. She unfortunately killed a chicken when we were not looking and so did not catch her, but I'm not worried. One of our best LGD's killed two chickens in her early days.



BarbadosSheep said:


> No need to feel pounced on. I think most folks (including me) just wanted to point out the flaws in your "it's all how you raise and train them" theory.


 Yes. Agreed. Not trying to be mean. Just stating a difference of opinion and sharing information to validate said opinion.



Otter said:


> I used to groom a Standard that herded cattle in FL. LOL, I used to clip him very short. I never, ever needed to trim that dogs nails though.


  That is very cool. They are such an intelligent breed. I would freaking LOVE to see a working poodle! I saw a rottweiler herding Barbados sheep once. That was a sight! I can't but have deep respect for anyone who will put effort into a dog's intended purpose. What a beautiful life for a dog.


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