# Possible terrorist attacks in Paris



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

This is a breaking story and on going but there are deaths and injuries. 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/13/shootings-reported-in-eastern-paris-live?CMP=fb_gu

This is a better link:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/paris-shooting-attacks-explosion-1.3318444


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I was told there may be other ongoing actions.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

One source mentioned allahu akbar. Given the multiple explosions it wasn't a disgruntled customer at the bar.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Reports of 100 hostages and that the military may have been deployed.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

It's horrible, over 40 confirmed dead now. Just talking to my friend in France...so awful.


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

Czech websites are reporting that France is closing all borders and has declared state of emergency in the entire country. They also reported that Fracois Hollande was at the soccer game and was evacuated to safety. 

(I am sure there are other European news sites that are reporting, but I do not speak those languages to be able to read them.)

ETA: They are also reporting that witnesses say there were 5 or 6 shooters at the concert hall that were talking about Syria and that they plan to kill the hostages one at a time.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

New York Times is saying at least 60 dead


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Here is where you can watch a "Live Feed"

http://www.france24.com/en/livefeed


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Well... I feel really sad for the French people right now. But I can't help being kind of focused on what I think is inevitable. It's all about to get a lot worse. Everywhere.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

arabian knight said:


> Here is where you can watch a "Live Feed"
> 
> http://www.france24.com/en/livefeed


Thank you AK, good link.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

wiscto said:


> Well... I feel really sad for the French people right now. But I can't help being kind of focused on what I think is inevitable. It's all about to get a lot worse. Everywhere.


It's just the beginning..................


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

wiscto said:


> Well... I feel really sad for the French people right now. But I can't help being kind of focused on what I think is inevitable. It's all about to get a lot worse. Everywhere.


Unfortunately I think you are right. Very sad day for the world ...


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## scooter (Mar 31, 2008)

It's pure EVIL!


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Get use to it. And remember,.........stay politically correct. Are they really terrorists? Or just disgruntled immigrants struggling in a world that does not understand them? We'll let the government and the media decide that.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Sadly none of these people can defend themselves. Laws need to change. People need to be able to defend themselves from that Muslims. Praying for all involved.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

JJ Grandits said:


> Get use to it. And remember,.........stay politically correct. Are they really terrorists? Or just disgruntled immigrants struggling in a world that does not understand them? We'll let the government and the media decide that.


Really? You want to start the political BS now? 

Have a sense of decency, please.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

Now saying that HUNDREDS dead, and ongoing in seven locations. Very, Very Sad.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> Really? You want to start the political BS now?
> 
> Have a sense of decency, please.


Facts are facts. There's never a good time to drag the reeking mess out into the open.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> Really? You want to start the political BS now?
> 
> Have a sense of decency, please.


I'm just kind of disgusted with how this sad story is going to play out. I truly wish I was wrong. Believe it or not, politics is not my concern.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Tiny thread drift. We don't have cable. But, when big news breaks like this, you can usually find links quickly to news websites that are live broadcasting their channel temporarily online, if you check www.drudgereport.com 

They're usually links near the top left of the page. Drudge is pretty good about linking the sites quickly, but sometimes you have to click his link, then click watch live on the site for news it takes you to.

Saves some time. Watching live online now. Last one we watched I think was the shootings in tn at the recruiting office and base.

Just thought I'd share. Probably a lot of folks knew, but thought it might be a tip for a few that didn't.


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## CountryCabin (Mar 8, 2007)

12 a.m.

Two Paris police officials say security forces have ended their assault on a concert hall filled with hostages, killing at least two attackers. Neither official could be named, citing ongoing operations throughout the city.

One official described "carnage" inside the building, saying the attackers had tossed explosives at the hostages. Both officials said they expected the toll of victims to rise.

12:20 a.m.

A French police official says at least 100 people have been killed inside a Paris concert hall where attackers seized hostages. The hostage-taking was one in a series of at least six attacks across the French capital.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Darren said:


> Facts are facts. There's never a good time to drag the reeking mess out into the open.


Do you think that you could wait to start your rhetoric until the body count is finalized? Or is that too hard?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

French Council on Muslim faith just condemned the attacks


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

At least 140 dead
One suspect said "I am ISIS"
They closed the borders, nobody in, nobody out.
I've been at work all day so I'm catching up


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Well in Canada, we just elected a dunce who wants to ensure 25 000 immigrants settle here by year end. I wonder if this will change his mind? Yes, it is political! Someone has to have the political will to keep the muslims, inside the backwards countries they belong in. Sadly France, and most of Europe, has failed and been far to welcoming to these losers.

I pray that the proper side gains control, and kills every last one of those involved in this plot, and restores safety. And I pray our North American countries learn from this, and refuse to allow the rampant immigration that happens elsewhere, to occur here.

Above all, I pray for the families of the victims...


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

farmerDale said:


> Well in Canada, we just elected a dunce who wants to ensure 25 000 immigrants settle here by year end. I wonder if this will change his mind? Yes, it is political! Someone has to have the political will to keep the muslims, inside the backwards countries they belong in. Sadly France, and most of Europe, has failed and been far to welcoming to these losers.
> 
> I pray that the proper side gains control, and kills every last one of those involved in this plot, and restores safety. And I pray our North American countries learn from this, and refuse to allow the rampant immigration that happens elsewhere, to occur here.
> 
> Above all, I pray for the families of the victims...


Heck, our dunce wants to import 200,000 of them, and he wants to hurry the process.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> Really? You want to start the political BS now?
> 
> Have a sense of decency, please.


Do you even have an idea of what decency is? Is it decent for a country to allow foreigners in knowing a lot of that group are terrorists? What about France's obligations to its own citizens? Why do you consider it indecent to point out the foolishness of governments being so stupidly political correct? All western countries had better learn to vet Muslim immigrants very thoroughly before allowing them in.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

The FBI has already said there's no way to vet that many. I just had a sinister thought I need to study. 

Why would you want to allow that many into the country knowing there's some chance of incidents? What could possibly go wrong? We've already seen what happened after 911 which some think was a false flag.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

...all part of the plan. Good time to go over prep holes...


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Darren said:


> The FBI has already said there's no way to vet that many. I just had a sinister thought I need to study.
> 
> Why would you want to allow that many into the country knowing there's some chance of incidents? What could possibly go wrong? We've already seen what happened after 911 which some think was a false flag.


And those that simply cross our borders!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

poppy said:


> Do you even have an idea of what decency is? Is it decent for a country to allow foreigners in knowing a lot of that group are terrorists? What about France's obligations to its own citizens? Why do you consider it indecent to point out the foolishness of governments being so stupidly political correct? All western countries had better learn to vet Muslim immigrants very thoroughly before allowing them in.


More political rhetoric bovine excrement? Not enough self control to wait for a final body count before bloviating about how all muslims are terrorists? News flash! ISIS is an extreme muslim terrorist organization that has about as much in common with the immigrants fleeing Syria as I do with Westboro baptist church. Hint: that would be nothing.

I know exactly what decency is- it's not ranting about political BS while people are dying and a country is in shock. It's not blaming an entire group of people for the horrific doings of a small group. It's not joy in being able to say, "I was right. And I told you so" when people are dead. Is your hate of all muslims so strong you can't wait until all the information is in?


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Concealed carry is gonna take a sharp rise up in this country. Let them try that garbage here, it'll be a bad day for us, but a much worse, and final, day for them.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> Not enough self control to wait for a final body count before bloviating about how all muslims are terrorists?


 Let him rant as per his usual. This aint the time for such divisiveness.


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## CountryCabin (Mar 8, 2007)

1:15 a.m.

The Paris hospital service says medical personnel are reporting for work of their own accord to help treat the injured in the multiple attacks in the city, and that others were being called in as part of a plan to deal with emergencies.

Among those called in minutes after the first reports went out was Patrick Pelloux, an emergency room doctor and former writer for Charlie Hebdo. Pelloux was also among the first to see the aftermath of the Jan. 7 attacks.

At least 100 people died in a Paris concert hall where attackers seized hostages Friday, an official said. At least five other terror attacks unfolded across the city in the deadliest violence Paris has seen since World War II.

___

1 a.m.

The French president has formally declared the state of emergency on all mainland territory and Corsica during a Cabinet meeting urgently summoned at the Elysee palace on Friday night.

Under French law, the state of emergency can be decided in the event of "imminent danger following serious breaches of law and order."

The state of emergency allows state authorities to forbid the movement of persons and vehicles at specific times and places. They can also define protected areas and safety areas where the movement of persons is controlled.

The state of emergency also allows police to perform house searches day and night &#8212;instead of performing them only at daylight.

___

12:55 a.m.

Management for rock band Eagles of Death Metal, who were scheduled to perform Friday at a venue in Paris where hostages were taken and scores were killed say they are "trying to determine the safety and whereabouts" of the band and its crew.

The American band was supposed to perform at the Bataclan, a theatre located in eastern Paris. The band, formed in 1998 in Palm Desert, California, was celebrating the October release of "Zipper Metal" with an European tour.

Police officials who were not authorized to be named said at least 100 people died at the Bataclan Friday, and that a police assault left at least two attackers dead.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> More political rhetoric bovine excrement? Not enough self control to wait for a final body count before bloviating about how all muslims are terrorists? News flash! ISIS is an extreme muslim terrorist organization that has about as much in common with the immigrants fleeing Syria as I do with Westboro baptist church. Hint: that would be nothing.
> 
> I know exactly what decency is- it's not ranting about political BS while people are dying and a country is in shock. It's not blaming an entire group of people for the horrific doings of a small group. It's not joy in being able to say, "I was right. And I told you so" when people are dead. Is your hate of all muslims so strong you can't wait until all the information is in?


I didn't notice any restraint on your part when Dylan Roof shot those people.
In fact, you and your gang went all out to blame the south, white people, Christians and the rebel flag.
Is your hate so strong you can't wait until the information was all in?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

greg273 said:


> Let him rant as per his usual. This aint the time for such divisiveness.


I think Pixie started the divisiveness.
Everybody else is reporting facts as they hear them, and also wondeing about Obama's plans to import terrorists into our own country.
It is relevant to the conversation whether she wants to admit it or not.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> More political rhetoric bovine excrement? Not enough self control to wait for a final body count before bloviating about how all muslims are terrorists? News flash! ISIS is an extreme muslim terrorist organization that has about as much in common with the immigrants fleeing Syria as I do with Westboro baptist church. Hint: that would be nothing.
> 
> I know exactly what decency is- it's not ranting about political BS while people are dying and a country is in shock. It's not blaming an entire group of people for the horrific doings of a small group. It's not joy in being able to say, "I was right. And I told you so" when people are dead. Is your hate of all muslims so strong you can't wait until all the information is in?


Aren't they the ones that we are providing arms to???

ISIS - right?

You've checked yer information - Right?

I mean, Russia has those terrorists running like rats. They couldn't possibly be among the people fleeing the war could they?

And - for all that, wonder how ISIS could get their teams into the other countries, maybe flood their borders with immigrants? Sounds like that would do it...

And please, check your outrage at the door. Follow the story and get back to us - OK?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> More political rhetoric bovine excrement? Not enough self control to wait for a final body count before bloviating about how all muslims are terrorists? News flash! ISIS is an extreme muslim terrorist organization that has about as much in common with the immigrants fleeing Syria as I do with Westboro baptist church. Hint: that would be nothing.
> 
> I know exactly what decency is- it's not ranting about political BS while people are dying and a country is in shock. It's not blaming an entire group of people for the horrific doings of a small group. It's not joy in being able to say, "I was right. And I told you so" when people are dead. Is your hate of all muslims so strong you can't wait until all the information is in?


Do you not get it? These ISIS terrorists were in France. The body count is now over 160. French citizens pay taxes like we do to pay for government to protect them from such foreign threats while the same government is bringing people in from the very places these terrorists originate. Can you prove those statements false? How did those ISIS fighters get into France? Our own FBI said today we have over 1,000 ISIS probes going on in this country. How did those ISIS suspects get into our country? Maybe they crossed our southern border illegally because it is not secure but more likely they entered with Muslim refugees. I'm pretty sure writing you are a member of ISIS on your entrance papers disqualifies you as an immigrant. Obama said today ISIS is contained. Guess he forgot to tell France.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Just wanted to point out that France has not accepted any Syrian refugees so it is unlikely they could be involved. 

And I am sure this won't be popular but I feel for the thousands of innocent refugees because I suspect most borders are going to be closed to them. I suspect that is part of the extremist plan because refugee camps will become prime recruiting grounds. 

And of course the innocent people murdered today should never be forgotten but the scum who did this must not be remembered. Throw them in unmarked graves. 

And finally I am just disgusted


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Shine said:


> Aren't they the ones that we are providing arms to???
> 
> ISIS - right?
> 
> ...


"Refugees"


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

I have a question ... some sites are reporting that the attackers were saying "This is for Syria". What is France's involvement in Syria?

On a separate note ... I think we will soon see how this is perceived by Muslim countries - act of extremists or something all Muslims are happy about? Remember the celebrations in Palestine after 9/11? It was not just a few extremists, there were crowds in the streets celebrating.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

keenataz said:


> Just wanted to point out that France has not accepted any Syrian refugees so it is unlikely they could be involved.
> 
> And I am sure this won't be popular but I feel for the thousands of innocent refugees because I suspect most borders are going to be closed to them. I suspect that is part of the extremist plan because refugee camps will become prime recruiting grounds.
> 
> ...


Actually, they do have some Syrian Refugees
http://www.english.rfi.fr/europe/20...agree-stay-france-despite-negative-reputation


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

greg273 said:


> Let him rant as per his usual. *This aint the time for such divisiveness.*


You're right and I apologize. The only time for such divisiveness is when you get to accuse people you know nothing about of being racist.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

This is kind of off topic but I worry now that attacks like this will bring us one step closer to xenophobia in much of Europe. 

And on our side of the Atlantic a possible President Trump- the two aren't associated though


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

FarmerKat said:


> I have a question ... some sites are reporting that the attackers were saying "This is for Syria". What is France's involvement in Syria?
> 
> On a separate note ... I think we will soon see how this is perceived by Muslim countries - act of extremists or something all Muslims are happy about? Remember the celebrations in Palestine after 9/11? It was not just a few extremists, there were crowds in the streets celebrating.


I don't know how directly France is involved with the Syria thing, but I don't know that terrorists really make much of a distinction between western nations.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Cornhusker said:


> Actually, they do have some Syrian Refugees
> http://www.english.rfi.fr/europe/20...agree-stay-france-despite-negative-reputation


I got my info from CNN and really now isn't the time to disagree so I'll say you are right. But I can almost guarantee there won't be too many more. 

And I really wish events like this would bring people together no matter their politics. Sometimes we have to stand together.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

FarmerKat said:


> I have a question ... some sites are reporting that the attackers were saying "This is for Syria". What is France's involvement in Syria?
> 
> On a separate note ... I think we will soon see how this is perceived by Muslim countries - act of extremists or something all Muslims are happy about? Remember the celebrations in Palestine after 9/11? It was not just a few extremists, there were crowds in the streets celebrating.


Much remains to be confirmed, but part of the ISIS strategy is to make the countries taking in refugees to want to throw them out, so the people who fled in fear will return on their knees at which point they will be forced to support ISIS in their war to seize more land since nobody else will take them.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

keenataz said:


> I got my info from CNN and really now isn't the time to disagree so I'll say you are right. But I can almost guarantee there won't be too many more.
> 
> And I really wish events like this would bring people together no matter their politics. Sometimes we have to stand together.


That's what I keep saying
It's us against them


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Sad day. Loss of lives are bad any day. Terrorists or extremists or disgruntled immigrants it doesn't really matter. We need to hunt them down and eliminate them before they continue to hit our shores.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Sad day. Loss of lives are bad any day. Terrorists or extremists or disgruntled immigrants it doesn't really matter. We need to hunt them down and eliminate them before they continue to hit our shores.


And therein lies the problem. How do we determine which Muslims to hunt down and eliminate? I'll wager few, if any, of the attackers today in France were on anyone's known list of terrorists. I also bet if you asked people they associated with on a daily basis, they would tell you they seemed like nice guys. It's easy to identify an enemy wearing a uniform, but not when they are dressed like everyone else.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

keenataz said:


> Just wanted to point out that France has not accepted any Syrian refugees so it is unlikely they could be involved.
> 
> And I am sure this won't be popular but I feel for the thousands of innocent refugees because I suspect most borders are going to be closed to them. I suspect that is part of the extremist plan because refugee camps will become prime recruiting grounds.
> 
> ...


if I understand the immigrant processing, it may not be a factor whether france officially accepts Syrian refugees. I think once they are accepted and get a visa from any eu nation, they are free to move as they choose into any eu country.

Not sure if that's 100% right or happening yet. But, that was the process I was reading about awhile ago for how they expected some of the immigrant processing to happen.

And, if they are isis, I think they could probably get there illegally or through travel or work visas or something designated as other than refugee status.

The eu visa to travel reminded me of refugees from isis countries coming here. ultimately, i'm not sure it matter what city or state they are settled into in the usa. the ones who want to do jihad won't be restricted and not allowed to travel anywhere. If texas or whomever takes them, they can go to Oregon or wherever.

I've been interested in following how the issuing of eu paperwork to travel around ultimately affects where the refugee influxes settle there. I don't think it will be dissimilar to what we may end up experiencing here.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

wiscto said:


> I don't know how directly France is involved with the Syria thing, but I don't know that terrorists really make much of a distinction between western nations.


True, and what does "This is for Syria" mean? There are so many different groups fighting in Syria, it's hard to tell. It was very likely an ISIS attack but a lot of the terrorists float around among the various fighting factions. Often it depends on which group offers them the best deal at the time.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

gibbsgirl said:


> if I understand the immigrant processing, it may not be a factor whether france officially accepts Syrian refugees. I think once they are accepted and get a visa from any eu nation, they are free to move as they choose into any eu country.
> 
> Not sure if that's 100% right or happening yet. But, that was the process I was reading about awhile ago for how they expected some of the immigrant processing to happen.
> 
> ...


It's terrible policy. France does have some control of their borders because they have closed them now. No one in or out. Why do governments, including ours, always fail to be proactive and make bad decisions and then act surprised and wake up only after tragedy happens?


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

poppy said:


> It's terrible policy. France does have some control of their borders because they have closed them now. No one in or out. Why do governments, including ours, always fail to be proactive and make bad decisions and then act surprised and wake up only after tragedy happens?


The media and political spin doctors are out already. Had france24 on for awhile. Once or maybe twice, I heard the translator earlier say the French president said the borders were being closed to stop letting more people into the country and to stop terrorists from escaping. Every other rebroadcast of that statement, has completely skipped the part about closing the borders to keep people out and now only says its to stop fleeing terrorists.

Apparently, the open border issue is a touchy subject there, too, and not just in Germany and eastern Europe. I thought it was funny to see them doing in on france 24, cause that's in English, not for local French to watch.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

I have been overseas in combat I know what it's like to fight an enemy that does not wear a uniform. Take the fight to all of them and stop rebuilding them take it over and add it to America!


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

FYI: there is no logical solution to this issue, it will continue forever.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> FYI: there is no logical solution to this issue, it will continue forever.


True. It's been going on forever and no reason for it to stop yet. But, it won't go on forever.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

gibbsgirl said:


> The media and political spin doctors are out already. Had france24 on for awhile. Once or maybe twice, I heard the translator earlier say the French president said the borders were being closed to stop letting more people into the country and to stop terrorists from escaping. Every other rebroadcast of that statement, has completely skipped the part about closing the borders to keep people out and now only says its to stop fleeing terrorists.
> 
> Apparently, the open border issue is a touchy subject there, too, and not just in Germany and eastern Europe. I thought it was funny to see them doing in on france 24, cause that's in English, not for local French to watch.


I'm sure Merkel in Germany won't sleep well tonight either. She was already under fire for allowing in so many refugees and this will make the fire much hotter.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

keenataz said:


> Just wanted to point out that France has not accepted any Syrian refugees so it is unlikely they could be involved.
> 
> And I am sure this won't be popular but I feel for the thousands of innocent refugees because I suspect most borders are going to be closed to them. I suspect that is part of the extremist plan because refugee camps will become prime recruiting grounds.
> 
> ...


Not all of the "refugees" are trying to go to Germany or Sweden. Some have been disrupting rail and road traffic through the chunnel. Note that this is in France.

"An estimated 5,000 people displaced from countries including *Syria*, Libya and Eritrea are believed to be camped in and around Calais."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ces-after-massive-invasion-at-calais-terminal


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Last news I heard said the attackers from all six or seven locations have not been caught. It's a nightmare situation that will keep the people of France in fear for a long time. Jeraldo Revera has even got riled up over this and that says a lot. On Fox earlier, he finally admitted Trump is right about bombing the hell out of ISIS and destroying them. The poor fool was actually worked up about it. Some see what is happening, some wake up late, and some refuse to wake up.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Daily Mail reporting the gunmen reloaded multiple times killing up to 100 at the concert hall.
That is what happens when you disarm your law abiding citizens. There's no one on hand that can stop the bad guys.

Time to stock up on ammo.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

FarmerKat said:


> What is France's involvement in Syria?


 France just stepped up attacks in Syria last month.

http://www.english.rfi.fr/france/20150927-france-starts-air-strikes-syria

The ISIS crew is desperate, they know they are bound for death within the next year or so, and want to cause as much mayhem as they can before they are extinguished forever.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

This will probably end up being homegrown radicals inspired by the internet. The level of complexity in carrying this out was so low and the targets so soft, it doesn't suggest an attack organized abroad.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

poppy said:


> Do you even have an idea of what decency is? Is it decent for a country to allow foreigners in knowing a lot of that group are terrorists? What about France's obligations to its own citizens? Why do you consider it indecent to point out the foolishness of governments being so stupidly political correct? All western countries had better learn to vet Muslim immigrants very thoroughly before allowing them in.


The gunmen were speaking French so it isn't very likely they are newly arrived immigrants. I can't believe you guys dropped to this right off the bat. Well no that's not true. It's disgusting but I can't say I am shocked.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Same old same old isn't it? The good guys should have had guns. It's evil Muslim refugees. I'll be back in a week or 2.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

I agree things seem to be picking up to stop or slow Isis. But, it seems these groups are linked and almost just rebrand themselves with whoever is left every few years. Heard dozens of names of groups and regimes over the decades. Just seems to not end.

I always feel bad before bed when I hear of these tragedies. I think the hardest moments may be the first morning the survivors awaken the next day after, and for a split second forget the ones they lost the day before are gone forever. Said prayers tonight for them.

I have several sketches hanging on the walls of our stairs. Not fancy or expensive. My mother bought them years ago in Paris from an artist while she was walking along a river walk in Paris. They're nice, and I like them.

But, mostly, I kept them because they remind me of picturing her feeling joy and having a small adventure in Paris with my dad. It was a big moment for her I think to be there with him. It was a really happy memory for her. So sad to think of the people in France who had the chance to make similar special memories in Paris snuffed out tonight and possibly for many others for a long time to come.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Continuing footage of the scene:
http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/...-murder-scene.html?playlistId=100000004037210


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Patchouli said:


> The gunmen were speaking French so it isn't very likely they are newly arrived immigrants. I can't believe you guys dropped to this right off the bat. Well no that's not true. It's disgusting but I can't say I am shocked.


French is one of the universal languages and is the official language in many countries.


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

gibbsgirl said:


> if I understand the immigrant processing, it may not be a factor whether france officially accepts Syrian refugees. I think once they are accepted and get a visa from any eu nation, they are free to move as they choose into any eu country.
> 
> Not sure if that's 100% right or happening yet. But, that was the process I was reading about awhile ago for how they expected some of the immigrant processing to happen.
> 
> ...


Up until the refugee crisis, there were completely open borders within the countries of the Schengen Zone. In other words, going from Germany to France was no different than driving from Florida to Georgia. With the refugee situations, individual countries are scrambling to close their borders. It is difficult because they no longer have the people that used to man the check points. It is causing a lot of issues for locals because with open borders, people living near the borders work in the other countries. Imagine going from a short 20 minute drive to waiting in line for 5 hours to go through a check point just to get to work.

I have always thought that open borders were really good ... but if there were border controls, each country can decide who they let in and whom they won't. When I was a kid, border control was a serious thing. If you tried to run across, you were shot at and they were shooting to kill. People still took their chances, many did not make it. Then it opened up and you could go with just a passport but still had to go through a check point. Next all you needed was an ID, no passport required. You still had to wait in line for hours but you could go. Then the borders opened .... and now they are closing again. Makes you wonder when they start shooting at those making a run for it again. Maybe open borders are not sustainable. 

I think we will find out that the terrorists have lived in France for some time. With France's historic ties to African Muslim countries, they have always had a large number of Muslim immigrants. I do not know if they allowed open immigration from countries that they used to control in the past or if this was simply because people had family connections. Among European countries (other than the few small countries where vast majority is Muslim like Kosovo or Albania), France has the highest % of Muslims.


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

greg273 said:


> France just stepped up attacks in Syria last month.
> 
> http://www.english.rfi.fr/france/20150927-france-starts-air-strikes-syria
> 
> The ISIS crew is desperate, they know they are bound for death within the next year or so, and want to cause as much mayhem as they can before they are extinguished forever.


Thank you for the link.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Yes, I think open borders are not right for anyone.

I think a lot of terrorists are of international origins, not just from the land Isis controls. It's been that way for a long time.

But, I think govts are dumb for not treating people accordingly when their allegiance is not to the country they live in.

I'm not a fan of the US govt in its current form, but I think that is different than having a preferential loyalty to another government. Isis may be rooted in a religion, but they gave setup a regime govt. If people want to be loyal to them, they should go live and work in that caliphates territory.

This news today is jusy awful. I thought France had a big Muslim population for a long time. Maybe that's wrong. I don't know. But, these terrorists are ruining things for a lot of people.

I wonder if spain will be next? They have a long history of Muslims there in past centuries.


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## CountryCabin (Mar 8, 2007)

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ed-in-black-professional-shooting-and-killing

Paris attack witness said 'He was dressed in black, professional, shooting and killing'

Can not seem to C&P at above addy but well worth a read, I think and sure makes one think.

Keep in mind, site is really busy so may take some to load.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> Same old same old isn't it? The good guys should have had guns. It's evil Muslim refugees. I'll be back in a week or 2.


There seems to be little doubt they were Muslims, their actions could be considered "evil, and aside from the suicide bombers, all the terrorists killed were neutralized by good guys with guns.

No matter how you want to spin it, those appear to be the facts


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

The possibility that the players could have been anybody stops me from berating anyone. I shall leave it at that.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> I didn't notice any restraint on your part when Dylan Roof shot those people.
> In fact, you and your gang went all out to blame the south, white people, Christians and the rebel flag.
> Is your hate so strong you can't wait until the information was all in?


Can you link the post(s) where I was crowing about how I was right and it was the evil whatever that did it while the bodies were still warm? Please? Or where I blamed the south, white people, christians, and the confederate flag? Thanks. Oh, BTW, I have no "gang", and even if I did, I'm not responsible for what anyone else posts or likes. 

The tit for tat thing is so grade school that I can smell eraser chalk every time you post it. Well, YOU did it so it's OK for ME to do it! So there! And my dad can beat up your dad! Gah.

I'm done. Go ahead, crow about being right and that all muslims are terrorists, all terrorists are immigrants, and how they should be exterminated. It's fascinating watching true human nature, and how a person can justify hate.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Name 10 good things a Muslim has done and been on the news for. And if we are really talking about hate and how certain states have banned the Dixie flag I think we ought to remind ourselves that a homosexual African American slated 2 reporters on air, let's ban the rainbow flag too then but that all fizzled out. We forget the deputy murdered in cold blood in Houston and it lacks media attention again because it was an African American that killed a white cop. Not trying to be racist here but the white people are allowing this, we don't fight and protest over simple stupid things. The Missouri shooting was justified, YOU NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TOUCH THE COP!!! I have been to Muslim countries, they hate us and honestly having a terp talk to them they don't even understand why to hate us. The world is full of hate and that will never change. As long as we the people continue to allow ourselves to be over run by ignorance we will continue to loose our freedoms. We the people have the right to alter or abolish our government should it become tyrannical, I reckon we are past this and the government won't allow us to alter or abolish. And with all the lazy free loaders out there that are voting because they get more and more of my money they will keep those POS's in office. Good morning and have a great day!


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Declan said:


> This will probably end up being homegrown radicals inspired by the internet. The level of complexity in carrying this out was so low and the targets so soft, it doesn't suggest an attack organized abroad.


I hope that was sarcasm


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Patchouli said:


> The gunmen were speaking French so it isn't very likely they are newly arrived immigrants. I can't believe you guys dropped to this right off the bat. Well no that's not true. It's disgusting but I can't say I am shocked.


What's disgusting is how you preach waiting for info, but defend muslims without info.
We expect no less from you
BTW, ISIS (muslims) have admitted to it


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> Can you link the post(s) where I was crowing about how I was right and it was the evil whatever that did it while the bodies were still warm? Please? Or where I blamed the south, white people, christians, and the confederate flag? Thanks. Oh, BTW, I have no "gang", and even if I did, I'm not responsible for what anyone else posts or likes.
> 
> The tit for tat thing is so grade school that I can smell eraser chalk every time you post it. Well, YOU did it so it's OK for ME to do it! So there! And my dad can beat up your dad! Gah.
> 
> I'm done. Go ahead, crow about being right and that all muslims are terrorists, all terrorists are immigrants, and how they should be exterminated. It's fascinating watching true human nature, and how a person can justify hate.


Now you are being ridiculous.
I looked for the thread in question, it's been conveniently deleted.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Cornhusker said:


> I think Pixie started the divisiveness.
> Everybody else is reporting facts as they hear them, and also wondeing about Obama's plans to import terrorists into our own country.
> It is relevant to the conversation whether she wants to admit it or not.


Well, seems like others want to count the bodies 1st b/4 charging out w/flighty info on the FACT THAT THIS IS ANOTHER ISLAMIC ATTACK!

"HUNDREDS" happen weekly. But-those pesky Christians "are just as much to blame" for violence. Get w/it, Corny. 

Hopefully this will wake up other nations. And I'm not speaking of Islamic nations. Seems if you're ruled by Islam you're in a horrendous hole, trying despartely to live or trying more desprately to get out. If Islam is so wonderful, why is that?


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

I wish you people were not so cryptic and apprehensive about expressing your true feelings.......:shrug::shrug:


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Cornhusker said:


> "Refugees"


Not sure if it was official last eve I heard that the pond scum Islamists were some who'd gone to Syria to be trained then back to France.
Seems we had a bill in congress to prevent anyone HERE from doing that? It failed?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> Now you are being ridiculous.
> I looked for the thread in question, it's been conveniently deleted.


There have been multiple threads involving the "south, white people, christians, and the confederate flag" if you can't find any of my posts blaming them for Dylann Roof's murder of 9 people, perhaps it's because I never said what you're accusing me of.

I'm not arguing the "tit for tat" crap anymore.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

FarmerKat said:


> I have a question ... some sites are reporting that the attackers were saying "This is for Syria". What is France's involvement in Syria?
> 
> On a separate note ... I think we will soon see how this is perceived by Muslim countries - act of extremists or something all Muslims are happy about? Remember the celebrations in Palestine after 9/11? It was not just a few extremists, there were crowds in the streets celebrating.


Heard last nite that many Islamic social media sites were celebrating. Had not heard about denouncing.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

poppy said:


> And therein lies the problem. How do we determine which Muslims to hunt down and eliminate? I'll wager few, if any, of the attackers today in France were on anyone's known list of terrorists. I also bet if you asked people they associated with on a daily basis, they would tell you they seemed like nice guys. It's easy to identify an enemy wearing a uniform, but not when they are dressed like everyone else.


Post of the day award.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

poppy said:


> Last news I heard said the attackers from all six or seven locations have not been caught. It's a nightmare situation that will keep the people of France in fear for a long time. Jeraldo Revera has even got riled up over this and that says a lot. On Fox earlier, he finally admitted Trump is right about bombing the hell out of ISIS and destroying them. The poor fool was actually worked up about it. Some see what is happening, some wake up late, and some refuse to wake up.


His 21 y/o daughter was in the soccer stadium.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> Same old same old isn't it? The good guys should have had guns. It's evil Muslim refugees. I'll be back in a week or 2.


No. It's the "same old" Islamists. 
Are you disappointed? Shoulda just been mentally ill Frenchmen?

It will take a while but betcha France makes some decisions about CCW, after they secure their borders & prevent Islamists from entering.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

When the murders go from the symbolic like the Twin Towers to the mundane, it gets very ugly. Everyone is at risk at that point. The truck in the tunnel that explodes while your family is in the same tunnel several cars behind will probably result in your death and that of others who can't reverse to escape. Not being able to shop at a mall without concerns for safety will become commonplace. 

Your normal day to day actions may have taken into account the possibility of being assaulted by a criminal, we normally don't consider the potential of explosives. Your CCW is useless when someone has placed a timed explosive device in a location you frequent. We're facing a huge downside potential especially with a government that spends enormous amounts of money to sustain the mistaken belief that it's legitimate, as in the peoples' interests come first, and it can protect us.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Name 10 good things a Muslim has done and been on the news for. And if we are really talking about hate and how certain states have banned the Dixie flag I think we ought to remind ourselves that a homosexual African American slated 2 reporters on air, let's ban the rainbow flag too then but that all fizzled out. We forget the deputy murdered in cold blood in Houston and it lacks media attention again because it was an African American that killed a white cop. Not trying to be racist here but the white people are allowing this, we don't fight and protest over simple stupid things. The Missouri shooting was justified, YOU NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TOUCH THE COP!!! I have been to Muslim countries, they hate us and honestly having a terp talk to them they don't even understand why to hate us. The world is full of hate and that will never change. As long as we the people continue to allow ourselves to be over run by ignorance we will continue to loose our freedoms. We the people have the right to alter or abolish our government should it become tyrannical, I reckon we are past this and the government won't allow us to alter or abolish. And with all the lazy free loaders out there that are voting because they get more and more of my money they will keep those POS's in office. Good morning and have a great day!


Post of the day award.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> Well, seems like others want to count the bodies 1st b/4 charging out w/flighty info on the FACT THAT THIS IS ANOTHER ISLAMIC ATTACK!
> 
> "HUNDREDS" happen weekly. But-those pesky Christians "are just as much to blame" for violence. Get w/it, Corny.
> 
> Hopefully this will wake up other nations. And I'm not speaking of Islamic nations. Seems if you're ruled by Islam you're in a horrendous hole, trying despartely to live or trying more desprately to get out. If Islam is so wonderful, why is that?





Tricky Grama said:


> His 21 y/o daughter was in the soccer stadium.



Ah, THAT explains it. As I've said before, the bleeding hearts don't care until it affects them personally.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Syrian passport found. At least two confirmed to be Parisians. Seems to be retaliation for France's actions against ISIS. Since we've been crowing about killing Jihadii John, we've been waving a red flag at the bull too.

Since Muslim radicals aren't into win-win consensus building, I suggest we add insult to injury and pork them before we bury them. Given their superstitions, that may dissuade some knowing if we end up with their bodies, they will go to hell.

It's time to take the gloves off.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...assport-body-suicide-bomber-Stade-France.html


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

The world is full of hate.
Hate leads to violence.
Violence leads to killing. 

When it's all said and done, 
I prefer to be the one left alive.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Apparently the Paris attack wasn't fair to the MIZZOU protesters. I see they are wailing on twitter about the attack stealing all their press coverage. There's sympathy for ya from the left.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

poppy said:


> Apparently the Paris attack wasn't fair to the MIZZOU protesters. I see they are wailing on twitter about the attack stealing all their press coverage. There's sympathy for ya from the left.


Self absorbed. It's a bad way to go through life.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Kerik says its a massive intel failure. 
Ya can't keep up w/everythin'...

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/ker...il_job=1643200_11142015&s=al&dkt_nbr=zgv8tsa5


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Tricky Grama said:


> Well, seems like others want to count the bodies 1st b/4 charging out w/flighty info on the FACT THAT THIS IS ANOTHER ISLAMIC ATTACK!
> 
> "HUNDREDS" happen weekly. But-those pesky Christians "are just as much to blame" for violence. Get w/it, Corny.
> 
> Hopefully this will wake up other nations. And I'm not speaking of Islamic nations. Seems if you're ruled by Islam you're in a horrendous hole, trying despartely to live or trying more desprately to get out. If Islam is so wonderful, why is that?


And why does Obama want so desperately to bring them here?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Declan said:


> This will probably end up being homegrown radicals inspired by the internet. The level of complexity in carrying this out was so low and the targets so soft, it doesn't suggest an attack organized abroad.


I disagree with your conclusion. The ability to acquire weapons, build bomb vests, grenades and ammo would point to a fairly well trained support system. This is not a nation that has gun shops on the corners.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

poppy said:


> Apparently the Paris attack wasn't fair to the MIZZOU protesters. I see they are wailing on twitter about the attack stealing all their press coverage. There's sympathy for ya from the left.


Fairly typical of the left though


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Darren said:


> Self absorbed. It's a bad way to go through life.


Those self absorbed miss out on a lot


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

poppy said:


> Apparently the Paris attack wasn't fair to the MIZZOU protesters. I see they are wailing on twitter about the attack stealing all their press coverage. There's sympathy for ya from the left.



I thought this had to be a mistake so I googled, unbelievable. If one of those students were my child...

http://therightscoop.com/un-effing-...s-terror-attacks-stole-their-media-spotlight/

Our priorities are skewed; it is going to be an interesting 2016 to say the least ( sarcasm/ or maybe disgust ).


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Tricky Grama said:


> Heard last nite that many Islamic social media sites were celebrating. Had not heard about denouncing.


 Probably because you didn't look. Prominent Muslims everywhere are denouncing the attacks. I know its hard to beleive, but most Muslims don't want to kill you.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

KentuckyDreamer said:


> I thought this had to be a mistake so I googled, unbelievable. If one of those students were my child...
> 
> http://therightscoop.com/un-effing-...s-terror-attacks-stole-their-media-spotlight/
> 
> Our priorities are skewed; it is going to be an interesting 2016 to say the least ( sarcasm/ or maybe disgust ).


Sounds like a selfish, self absorbed group of children. If they were so abused they would be a least a little caring about the abuse and deaths of others.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

poppy said:


> You're right and I apologize. The only time for such divisiveness is when you get to accuse people you know nothing about of being racist.


 Don't make a fake apology for your beliefs, poppy. If you want to go through life erroneously blaming ALL Muslims for the actions of a few, go right ahead.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

greg273 said:


> Probably because you didn't look. Prominent Muslims everywhere are denouncing the attacks. I know its hard to beleive, but most Muslims don't want to kill you.


You might be right Greg but some in Paris sure wanted to kill off a 120 or more ?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

no really said:


> I disagree with your conclusion. The ability to acquire weapons, build bomb vests, grenades and ammo would point to a fairly well trained support system. This is not a nation that has gun shops on the corners.


With only 8 attackers how many more would be needed for each one ? It would be dozens more involved at least.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

no really said:


> I disagree with your conclusion. The ability to acquire weapons, build bomb vests, grenades and ammo would point to a fairly well trained support system. This is not a nation that has gun shops on the corners.


Criminals and those with contacts have always been able to get what they want. Money still talks. A journalist decided to see if that was true. By asking around, he soon had an assortment of handguns to chose from.

If nothing else the War on Drugs should be proof that outlawing something doesn't solve the problem. It drives it further undercover, enriches those who benefit from the underground trade and simply spreads it to the point law enforcement is overwhelmed.

*Human greed is the support system.* Until you can stop that, anything else is a waste of time and money.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

140 people were killed in Paris and the best you guys can do is bicker amongst yourselves about politics? Sure, I'll help with that.



poppy said:


> Apparently the Paris attack wasn't fair to the MIZZOU protesters. I see they are wailing on twitter about the attack stealing all their press coverage. There's sympathy for ya from the left.


Their tweets were insolent and rude. However, what the heck does this have to do with the left? I get so tired sometimes of the right calling the left and vice versa. We need to actively be more tolerant and sensitive towards issues of all types. Building up intolerance towards a group simply because of a label
_is exactly the same psychology as terrorists use._



Cornhusker said:


> And why does Obama want so desperately to bring them here?


Because unlike you, apparently, he may actually be a nice person, or at the very least, wants to appear like one. I'm in favor of bringing the refugees here as well. Yes, it will cause problems, but I doubt that you're thinking. Just because the people are the same nationality as the terrorists doesn't mean we shouldn't help them. They're people, and they need help, and if you and others can't see that, then you're the ones who need help!



Cornhusker said:


> Fairly typical of the left though


Oh good God.



greg273 said:


> Probably because you didn't look. Prominent Muslims everywhere are denouncing the attacks. I know its hard to beleive, but most Muslims don't want to kill you.


I don't know why people can't understand this. Yes, Islam is very good at dishing out terrorists, but one has only to look at the political instability of the countries and economies over there to realize why some of this may be. However, to cast the Muslims all into one category is exactly what they are (supposedly) casting us into. This is pathetic.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Darren said:


> Criminals and those with contacts have always been able to get what they want. Money still talks. A journalist decided to see if that was true. By asking around, he soon had an assortment of handguns to chose from.
> 
> If nothing else the War on Drugs should be proof that outlawing something doesn't solve the problem. It drives it further undercover, enriches those who benefit from the underground trade and simply spreads it to the point law enforcement is overwhelmed.
> 
> *Human greed is the support system.* Until you can stop that, anything else is a waste of time and money.


Of course they access the criminal element, that is an obvious route. But coordinated attacks using grenades and bomb vests plus AK's is an easy call. Not to mention the Syrian passport and others from the ME. 

Of course outlawing guns is not the answer, not my point at all. My point is being proactive in immigration.


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

The refugees are running FROM these terrorists. You do know that right?

Whether you want or don't want refugees in your backyard, you have to at least understand why they are leaving their homes and property.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

A great post..
"To people blaming terrorists for the attacks in Paris tonight:
Do you not realize that these are the people the refugees are trying to run away from?"


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

poppy said:


> Ah, THAT explains it. As I've said before, the bleeding hearts don't care until it affects them personally.


Like the old saying goes, a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

no really said:


> I disagree with your conclusion. The ability to acquire weapons, build bomb vests, grenades and ammo would point to a fairly well trained support system. This is not a nation that has gun shops on the corners.


I worked all night so I don't have enough info yet but this could go either way. Yet from what I do know (large attacks at multiple locations) the theory that this is just a rouge group of home grown criminals doesn't fit.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

*Ann Coulter on Paris Attack: Donald Trump Was Elected President Tonight*

:goodjob::goodjob:

Ann Coulter reacted to the Paris terrorist attack tonight by declaring &#8220;no more Muslim immigration&#8221; and touting Donald Trump on that particular issue.

In a string of tweets tonight, Coulter said that the obvious answer to stopping terrorism in the United States is to *&#8220;stop importing Muslims&#8221;*

http://www.mediaite.com/online/ann-coulter-on-paris-attack-donald-trump-was-elected-president-tonight/


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

greg273 said:


> Probably because you didn't look. Prominent Muslims everywhere are denouncing the attacks. I know its hard to beleive, but most Muslims don't want to kill you.


A few things there.

One, most Muslims may not be terrorist but history has shown us that most terrorists are Muslim. 

Two, even if only a small percentage of Muslims are terrorist the fact there is said to be 1,500,000,000 Muslims in the world means there are a huge number of Muslim terrorist.

Three, the number of Muslims denouncing these actions are dwarfed by the number of those who give their support to them. Either by direct action or by their inaction.

Four, while there are some Muslims denouncing Muslim terrorist we have yet to see any major sustained action of the denouncers to find and remove the terrorist from their midst.


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

fireweed farm said:


> The refugees are running FROM these terrorists. You do know that right?
> 
> Whether you want or don't want refugees in your backyard, you have to at least understand why they are leaving their homes and property.


Yes they are but they make up only a small percentage of the "refugees" fleeing to Europe. Syrians who are in dire need to escape the war in their country are mugged by others stealing their passports (because that is the ticket to getting quickly accepted as a refugee). The others (who are just trying to get into Europe) are making sure they either have a stolen Syrian passport or no paperwork at all. How are you going to vet someone if you do not even know their name or country they came from? 

Have you ever wondered why most of the so called refugees do not just want a safe place to stay, food & access to medical care?


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

watcher said:


> most Muslims may not be terrorist


 Glad you can admit that simple fact.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

arabian knight said:


> *Ann Coulter on Paris Attack: Donald Trump Was Elected President Tonight*
> 
> :goodjob::goodjob:
> 
> ...


Awwww, dear sweet Ann using a tragedy to promote her unique brand of vicious and sell a few books.

While we do need to do careful screening of any refugees we import, saying that not importing Muslims will prevent terrorism is the same logic that gun bans will prevent crime. Think about it.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

greg273 said:


> Probably because you didn't look. Prominent Muslims everywhere are denouncing the attacks. I know its hard to beleive, but most Muslims don't want to kill you.


I beg to differ. They are commanded in their "good and peaceful" book to kill. The ones who are doing so, are simply following their book accurately. The ones who are not, are either not following their book, therefore are not muslims at all, or they are waiting for the proper time, or are the breeding stock, mandated to overpower us by breeding like rats. 

THAT is when all hell WILL break loose. I think we should look into stopping it now.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Darren said:


> It's time to take the gloves off.


Tough talk, but what do you suggest be done?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> 140 people were killed in Paris and the best you guys can do is bicker amongst yourselves about politics? Sure, I'll help with that.


You have to realize this was a political action. Violence has lead to some of, if not all of, the largest political changes in history. 




Heritagefarm said:


> Their tweets were insolent and rude. However, what the heck does this have to do with the left? I get so tired sometimes of the right calling the left and vice versa. We need to actively be more tolerant and sensitive towards issues of all types. Building up intolerance towards a group simply because of a label
> _is exactly the same psychology as terrorists use._


Because the left is the side which divides people into groups. Most people on the right don't give an airborne rodent's rectum what color you are, if you can do the job better than the next guy they want you doing the job. Its the left who thinks that even though a purple guy can do the job better the green guy should be hired because he's green.

Want to end intolerance of groups? Stop demanding we look at what group a person belongs to. Stop giving this group or that group bonuses just because they are members of the group. How many times have you heard someone talking about the first black/hispanic/woman/gay/ person to do this or that? 




Heritagefarm said:


> I don't know why people can't understand this. Yes, Islam is very good at dishing out terrorists, but one has only to look at the political instability of the countries and economies over there to realize why some of this may be. However, to cast the Muslims all into one category is exactly what they are (supposedly) casting us into. This is pathetic.


Chicken and egg again. Is the fact that Islam is the major religion in these nations the effect of their problems or the cause?


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

farmerDale said:


> I beg to differ. They are commanded in their "good and peaceful" book to kill. The ones who are doing so, are simply following their book accurately. The ones who are not, are either not following their book, therefore are not muslims at all, or they are waiting for the proper time, or are the breeding stock, mandated to overpower us by breeding like rats.
> 
> THAT is when all hell WILL break loose. I think we should look into stopping it now.


With that thinking we better be concerned about Christians reading their own book!


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

fireweed farm said:


> The refugees are running FROM these terrorists. You do know that right?


Running or being driven? If you wanted to get 1,000 operatives into a nation what better way to do it than drive 100,000 refugees into that nation and hide your operatives among them?


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

greg273 said:


> Glad you can admit that simple fact.


You missed two things. One, the word "may" and two, the fact that almost every terrorist attack in the last 20+ years has been done by a follower of Muhammad.

These two things mean that only a fool would not view a Muslim as a possible terrorist unless they were very, very, very carefully and fully vetted.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Tough talk, but what do you suggest be done?


The first thing I would suggest is to stop being so worried about collateral damage when we attack terrorist strong holds. The second would be to use the old enemy of my enemy is my friend strategy and sell old out military supplies to those who are willing to use them against the radicals. 

Think about what might happened if we simply gave a rifle and 200 rds of ammo to every able bodied refugee streaming into Europe and shipped them back to where they came?

If nothing else we'd keep them so busy killing each other the wouldn't have much time to worry about killing us. Heck, why not go into the business of selling each side arms and make it win-win-win situation by making a profit while having our enemies kill each other to keep us safe.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

fireweed farm said:


> With that thinking we better be concerned about Christians reading their own book!


Care to show me anywhere Christ told His followers if someone didn't follow Him they should kill them?


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

watcher said:


> You missed two things. One, the word "may" and two, the fact that almost every terrorist attack in the last 20+ years has been done by a follower of Muhammad.
> 
> These two things mean that only a fool would not view a Muslim as a possible terrorist unless they were very, very, very carefully and fully vetted.


And this is where my mind goes in circles. I learned of ISIS about a year ago when I saw the video of the "girl in the purple dress", a Yazidi girl named Aziza. My heart sank and has never been the same. Being ignorant is bliss.

Then, I learn how well these thugs are trained. To think they could not pass some "vetting process" seems naive to me. 

What to do? My humanity insists Aziza and every refugee be given major assistance; my need for security says I certainly could not sleep at night with a refugee in my home. That is not prejudice, I have family members I could not allow to stay overnight. 

Mind circles back; where is Aziza and her family? Are they safe? Are they cold? 

The more I learn, the more I have no idea.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Another thing to remember. Violence may not always be the answer to a problem but for some problems it is the *ONLY *answer.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

JJ Grandits said:


> Get use to it. And remember,.........stay politically correct. *Are they really terrorists? Or just disgruntled immigrants struggling in a world that does not understand them?* We'll let the government and the media decide that.


 You had best learn how to tell the difference. Until we make our peace with the moderate Muslim world and learn to distinguish between their many different factions, there will never be peace. This will never end. Stop acting like youâre three years old and incapable of distinguishing shades of gray between the black and white.

Who do you think ISIS/ISIL *is*, anyway? Where do you think they came from? Does the word, âDe-Baâathificationâ mean anything to you? Saddamâs elite Sunni military, the one *we* summarily disbanded, throwing thousands of young men out of work with nothing to do, and leaving them and their families to starve? And letâs radicalize them further, by killing hundreds of thousands of their family members. Just âcollateral damageâ to us. Maybe something different to them. The most *conservative* estimate is that *500,000* Iraqi civilians died during our invasion. If it was *your* brother, *your* mother, would you not feel you were at war with the country that did it? These are human beings, which you seem to forget. Their responses are human and understandable, even if unacceptable, under the circumstances. They hate the Western world. Would you feel different?

Now you should understand exactly why France would not join our ridiculous so-called âcoalition of the willing.â They well knew where our invasion would lead, and *this is it*. Admit it. The French were right. Are *we* paying the price for our folly? No. *They* are.

Syrian and Iraqi refugees are *not* ISIS/ISIL. They are *fleeing* ISIS/ISIL. Get it? The Iraqis who are fleeing are people who will be killed if they stay behind. They are the Iraqis who *helped* us during our stupid, misbegotten invasion. They are the interpreters, the handlers, the traitors to ISIS/ISIL, Christians and Shia Muslims. They are *not* Sunni ISIS/ISIL. They need our help. Are there some terrorist-minded types mixed in? Sure. Work to weed those out. As the world's sole remaining super power, I think we can manage it.

Get a grasp on what is actually going on before trying to tarnish all Syrian/Iraqi refugees with your nasty, ignorant broad brush. God, I am so sick of watching simple people pretend there are simple solutions to these Gordian Knot problems. If it was simple, it would already be fixed.

Diplomacy is hard. It takes time. And itâs the only thing that is ultimately going to work. You are not going to bomb "them" into oblivion. You will only radicalize many, many more and make the situation even worse. Try not to repeat mistakes of the past because of your fears. 

Meantime, yes, get used to it. Sunni ISIS/ISIL are some very angry, radicalized young men. Angry to the point of gladly committing suicide to further their aims.

Youâre about to get a lesson in true courage, with cool, deliberate and measured responses from the French. They are not going to get all hysterical and start bristling with guns or stop enjoying life or stop refugees from immigrating to their country. Theyâre going to take a sane, calm, considered and courageous approach to what they have endured. We could learn a lot.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

greg273 said:


> Probably because you didn't look. Prominent Muslims everywhere are denouncing the attacks. I know its hard to beleive, but most Muslims don't want to kill you.


Links?

Of course I know that every single muslim is not out to kill us. But that leaves a % that is difficult to get around. Amounts to millions who do.


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

watcher said:


> The first thing I would suggest is to stop being so worried about collateral damage when we attack terrorist strong holds. The second would be to use the old enemy of my enemy is my friend strategy and sell old out military supplies to those who are willing to use them against the radicals.
> 
> Think about what might happened if we simply gave a rifle and 200 rds of ammo to every able bodied refugee streaming into Europe and shipped them back to where they came?
> 
> If nothing else we'd keep them so busy killing each other the wouldn't have much time to worry about killing us. Heck, why not go into the business of selling each side arms and make it win-win-win situation by making a profit while having our enemies kill each other to keep us safe.



Collateral damage? I could not live with myself. It is hard enough now trying to make sense of everything. I accept it will happen, it is happening now. But minimize it to the nth degree. 

In my opinion, if I throw out my humanity, I am no better than the politicians that repulse me.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> The first thing I would suggest is to stop being so worried about collateral damage when we attack terrorist strong holds.


The problem with that is killing innocent Muslim civilians can be used as a recruiting tool by radicals. When we kill innocent people there isn't a lot to distinguish us from terrorists. In the end, our shelling of the doctors without borders hospital was a boon for Islamic radicals. We need to be very careful not to do that sort of thing.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

watcher said:


> A few things there.
> 
> One, most Muslims may not be terrorist but history has shown us that most terrorists are Muslim.
> 
> ...


Post of the millenneum award.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

watcher said:


> The first thing I would suggest is to stop being so worried about collateral damage when we attack terrorist strong holds. The second would be to use the old enemy of my enemy is my friend strategy and sell old out military supplies to those who are willing to use them against the radicals.
> 
> Think about what might happened if we simply gave a rifle and 200 rds of ammo to every able bodied refugee streaming into Europe and shipped them back to where they came?
> 
> If nothing else we'd keep them so busy killing each other the wouldn't have much time to worry about killing us. Heck, why not go into the business of selling each side arms and make it win-win-win situation by making a profit while having our enemies kill each other to keep us safe.


 You got that right. If some of the past would wars were fought like what is happening today, in these so called wars, we ALL would be wearing swastikas on our shirt sleeves.~!!!!


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> Another thing to remember. Violence may not always be the answer to a problem but for some problems it is the *ONLY *answer.


If we haven't learned anything else over the past decade, it's that conventional military force is ineffective against terror organizations.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

Should we kill all these Muslims, too?

http://qz.com/550104/muslims-around-the-world-condemn-terrorism-after-the-paris-attacks/


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

FarmerKat said:


> Yes they are but _*they make up only a small percentage of the "refugees" fleeing to Europe.*_ Syrians who are in dire need to escape the war in their country are mugged by others stealing their passports (because that is the ticket to getting quickly accepted as a refugee). The others (who are just trying to get into Europe) are making sure they either have a stolen Syrian passport or no paperwork at all. How are you going to vet someone if you do not even know their name or country they came from?
> 
> Have you ever wondered why most of the so called refugees do not just want a safe place to stay, food & access to medical care?


How do you know? How CAN you know? Because their "vetting" produced no criminal history, no "known" association with terrorists/organizations? How reliable is/was the source of information used to vet...and how do they KNOW it is/was reliable?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Keep an open mind.

Just don't open your mind so far, your brains fall out.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Tough talk, but what do you suggest be done?


Here's my suggestion. Clean out a couple cities occupied by ISIS by whatever means necessary. Raqqa Syria would be one candidate since it is the capital of ISIS. Perhaps another one in Iraq. Fuel Air Bombs are one option. We have some big ones and so does Russia. Designate those cities as sanctuary cities for refugees. We have them for illegals, so why not refugees? Send enough troops to protect them. Better and cheaper in the long run than mobs of immigrants going into the EU and US.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

You know, if I was a radicalized terrorist, I can think of half a dozen ways to come into the United States that are far, far easier and less challenging than trying to enter as a lawful immigrant seeking permanent asylum with an attendant, extensive vetting process.

But maybe they're more stupid than we are.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Raeven said:


> You know, if I was a radicalized terrorist, I can think of half a dozen ways to come into the United States that are far, far easier and less challenging than trying to enter as a lawful immigrant seeking permanent asylum with an attendant, extensive vetting process.
> 
> But maybe they're more stupid than we are.


They could go to Mexico and just walk in, but 200,000 would look bad.
Obama will let them in the front door.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> If we haven't learned anything else over the past decade, it's that conventional military force is ineffective against terror organizations.


What would you think would be effective?


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## scooter (Mar 31, 2008)

Yesterday, Obama was being interviewed by George Stephanopolus on GMA, Obama said that ISIS was contained. He is either out of the loop on his thinking, or he was lying again.


Edit: Changed the word shrinking to contained.


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## FireMaker (Apr 3, 2014)

Yes to both


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The problem with that is killing innocent Muslim civilians can be used as a recruiting tool by radicals. When we kill innocent people there isn't a lot to distinguish us from terrorists. In the end, our shelling of the doctors without borders hospital was a boon for Islamic radicals. We need to be very careful not to do that sort of thing.


We already are very careful.
We don't blow up malls or concerts at random


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> What would you think would be effective?


There's only one way to end terrorism, and that's to remove their motivation to act.


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## FireMaker (Apr 3, 2014)

Coordinated attacks are interesting. Back in the day, we did 4 simultaneous drug raids. This was completed by three agencies that worked together. It took some planning and interagency cooperation.

Change that to a large organization that wants to just create an environment of fear and are willing to die in the process. The idea of making coordinated assaults is not that big of a deal. Our goal was no injuries. Their goal is fear, death and injuries are just gravy.

I have been saying for years that to make the greatest impact the terrorists will go after civilians,. You don't go after military. You don't go after government. You go after those that are "innocent". Schools, malls, churches, bars, sports facilities, etc. It's sad that our leadership does not seem to understand.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> We already are very careful.
> We don't blow up malls or concerts at random


That's because we're concerned about collateral damage. Watcher doesn't think we should worry so much about that.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> There's only one way to end terrorism, and that's to remove their motivation to act.


And that would be what? How would it be accomplished?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Nevada said:


> There's only one way to end terrorism, and that's to remove their motivation to act.


So your answer is to do whatever they want?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

poppy said:


> Here's my suggestion. Clean out a couple cities occupied by ISIS by whatever means necessary. Raqqa Syria would be one candidate since it is the capital of ISIS. Perhaps another one in Iraq. Fuel Air Bombs are one option. We have some big ones and so does Russia. Designate those cities as sanctuary cities for refugees. We have them for illegals, so why not refugees? Send enough troops to protect them. Better and cheaper in the long run than mobs of immigrants going into the EU and US.


Your plan deals with refugees, but doesn't provide a plan to deal with ISIS.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> And that would be what? How would it be accomplished?


First you have to understand what their problem is, then find a way to minimize the problem.

(Hint: their problem isn't that they hate our freedom.)


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

scooter said:


> Yesterday, Obama was being interviewed by George Stephanopolus on GMA, Obama said that ISIS was shrinking. He is either out of the loop on his thinking, or he was lying again.


 If you follow events in Iraq and Syria, you can see for yourself ISIS is losing territory on a daily basis. They are not finished, but they are losing. Terror attacks against civilians are part of their desperation, and unfortunately as they get more and more desperate, we will see more of these attacks.
Now I don't care what Obama has to say about it, he is a politician and as such tells lies as a matter of course. So I don't take his word for anything, I follow reports from those in-country, like these guys...

http://rudaw.net/english


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## Manny (Dec 26, 2003)

Nevada said:


> There's only one way to end terrorism, and that's to remove their motivation to act.


Do you mean that we all should convert??


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> First you have to understand what their problem is, then find a way to minimize the problem.
> 
> (Hint: their problem isn't that they hate our freedom.)


Please share what is their problem?


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

watcher said:


> Care to show me anywhere Christ told His followers if someone didn't follow Him they should kill them?


 Christ didn't, but killing infidels is very popular in the Old Testament. I know, I know, that book was just for the Jews in ancient times, but its funny how some still use cherry-picked parts of it to justify their own prejudices.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

fireweed farm said:


> The refugees are running FROM these terrorists. You do know that right?
> 
> Whether you want or don't want refugees in your backyard, you have to at least understand why they are leaving their homes and property.


The vast majority are young men-the 17-27 age group-what did they do w/their families? Leave them to the fate there?

It will not end well with that majority in this refuge mix.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Please share what is their problem?


Mostly their problem is our military & economic intervention in the middle east, along with innocent Muslims being killed along the way. While other countries are complicit, they see the USA as most of the problem.

In truth, when oil becomes less of a strategic commodity as electric cars begin to dominate the market, the middle east won't be so important to us. After we lose economic interest in the region we won't care who is killing who, much like how we don't care who is killing who in Africa. When we lose interest in the region, Islamic terrorism against the USA will cease to be a problem.

In other words, this problem will probably take care of itself when we start using electric cars.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

fireweed farm said:


> With that thinking we better be concerned about Christians reading their own book!


Uh huh. When was the last time you saw a Christian w/severed head int heir hands? Or standing like a coward in a balcony murdering innocent folks, one by one?
How 'bout you contrast predominantly Christian countries w/Islamic countries? Who's fleeing the heck-holes that Islam controls?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

watcher said:


> Care to show me anywhere Christ told His followers if someone didn't follow Him they should kill them?


Better yet, how about showing us where its happened in the last couple hundred years. Then say the same 'bout Islam...its a radical theocratic political movement, bent on destroying western civilization & setting up a world-wide caliphate.

B/4 anyone says Christians would like to be 'world-wide' let me point out that prayers about this don't equate to mass murdering.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Mostly their problem is our military & economic intervention in the middle east, along with innocent Muslims being killed along the way. While other countries are complicit, they see the USA as most of the problem.
> 
> In truth, when oil becomes less of a strategic commodity as electric cars begin to dominate the market, the middle east won't be so important to us. After we lose economic interest in the region we won't care who is killing who, much like how we don't care who is killing who in Africa. When we lose interest in the region, Islamic terrorism against the USA will cease to be a problem.
> 
> In other words, this problem will probably take care of itself when we start using electric cars.



Hehe, how you managed to insert electric cars into terrorism is interesting. 

So seriously what do you think their problem is and how would you correct it?


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

There will be a backlash...

Fire in refugee camp in Calais

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sacre-workers-deny-claims-revenge-attack.html



> The fire is not thought to be related to the horrific terror events in Paris despite unsubstantiated claims that the fire was started by activists angered by the migrants presence in France.


Who knows maybe it was angry activists .

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...-arm-itself-revoke-muslims-passports-eradicat



> Le Pen came out swinging this morning call for France to "re-arm itself," stating that radical Islam must be "eradicated" from France. She further demanded that border controls be made "permanent" and binational Islamists must be depreived of their French passport.





> The Front National party in France are moving one step closer to seriously challenging for the country&#8217;s presidency. A new opinion poll reveals that their leader, nationalist firebrand Marine Le Pen, has topped yet another poll ahead of the elections in 2017.
> ... And then came the Paris attacks. The perps are Middle Eastern though it&#8217;s not clear what group they&#8217;re affiliated with. But no one seems to care whether it&#8217;s ISIS or al-Qaeda. Their ancestry is all that will matter in the next election, and any politician with an anti-euro, anti-immigrant platform will find a suddenly very receptive audience.


Violence begets violence till know one remembers who started it all. My daughter just finished reading a book "Burnt Shadows." We were discussing the one character who was a Japanese woman critical of the US dropping the bomb on Nagasaki. I pointed out to my daughter that one could look at it as karma. The Japanese empire killed over 15 million in China a few years before. The rape of Nanking is widely known. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
What goes around comes around. 

Same here. I don't know what started it or how far back in history to go to find out but unless all sides together break the chain of violence it will only continue. The only thing this attack on Paris is going to do is inflame more hatred against Muslims, and I fear everyone will pay a terrible price before it is all over. Do I expect people to suddenly become peaceful, no. So expect things to escalate till it get very nasty. I've said before I could see a new Crusade.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> So seriously what do you think their problem is and how would you correct it?


*The Problem:* Mostly their problem is US military & economic intervention in the middle east, along with innocent Muslims being killed along the way.

*The Fix:* Stop military & economic intervention in the middle east.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Nevada said:


> In other words, this problem will probably take care of itself when we start using electric cars.


:stars::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> There's only one way to end terrorism, and that's to remove their motivation to act.


Yup. We won WWII. How on earth did we get those pesky Japanese, excuse me, the Radical Japanese, to no longer try to bomb us, take us over? How? Hmmm...
Granted it took TWO nuclear bombs and they yelled uncle. 
But, how 'bout their weird beliefs? That their emperor was a god, f.i.? They TOLD 'em, peace agreement, that they could no longer believe that. Hmmmm...wonder why it worked?

And in case anyone's up for calling me callous, a disclaimer: it was a horrendous thing to have to do. The # of innocent people killed, maimed, scarred for life is terrible. No one should have to go thru anything like that. In the meantime, Islam is screaming for something like that. It is the poor helpless folks who are born into that w/no fault of their own that I truly hurt for.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> There's only one way to end terrorism, and that's to remove their motivation to act.


Couldn't be their religion or their "books" ? Must be all a coinkydink that they are all muslims....


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> Yup. We won WWII. How on earth did we get those pesky Japanese, excuse me, the Radical Japanese, to no longer try to bomb us, take us over? How? Hmmm...
> Granted it took TWO nuclear bombs and they yelled uncle.
> But, how 'bout their weird beliefs? That their emperor was a god, f.i.? They TOLD 'em, peace agreement, that they could no longer believe that. Hmmmm...wonder why it worked?
> 
> And in case anyone's up for calling me callous, a disclaimer: it was a horrendous thing to have to do. The # of innocent people killed, maimed, scarred for life is terrible. No one should have to go thru anything like that. In the meantime, Islam is screaming for something like that. It is the poor helpless folks who are born into that w/no fault of their own that I truly hurt for.


Military force is effective against a country, but not against a terrorist organization.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

greg273 said:


> Christ didn't, but killing infidels is very popular in the Old Testament. I know, I know, that book was just for the Jews in ancient times, but its funny how some still use cherry-picked parts of it to justify their own prejudices.


Yeah. That's about all it is, funny. 
Following the Koran, OTOH, gets a mass of folks beheaded as well as attacks nearly daily in some part of the world.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

Nevada said:


> *The Problem:* Mostly their problem is US military & economic intervention in the middle east, along with innocent Muslims being killed along the way.
> 
> *The Fix:* Stop military & economic intervention in the middle east.



I probably agree with you for the most part on that. Nobody in power ever will because of oil and the compulsion for politicians to be seen like they are doing something with bad things are happening to people. We need more politicians willing to just throw up their hands and say, "Sucks people are dying, but their circus, their monkeys."


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Military force is effective against a country, but not against a terrorist organization.


Ah, but now there's a whole big bunch in nearly all of Iraq.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

watcher said:


> You have to realize this was a political action. Violence has lead to some of, if not all of, the largest political changes in history.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Let's not forget that it's the right that wants to send all the immigrants back to their decrepit country. We are rich enough to sustain a great deal of immigration, but it's easy to forget that we were once a melting pot, and still are to an extent.
Now, what's wrong with giving some minorities a boost? It was only the 60s before blacks became fully accepted into society, and even so we still have the KKK. Do you see any prominent (key word there) black group in the US that wants to kill / enslave white people? To clarify, I'm a healthy white hetero male - as majority as they come. It irks me when someone else gets a job when they're a minority, and I could probably do a better job than them. But I try to maintain a historical perspective. I'm all for letting everyone be equal. It'll stop as soon as we get rid of hate groups, until then there is still plenty of discrimination. Blacks are thrown in prison more than whites who have committed similar crimes, etc. but this isn't about rascism - it's about decrying an entire religion is out to get you just because a minority happen to be terrorists. The KKK are probably adamant Christians. In fact, I know of several hard core Christians nearby who hate blacks. Hows that for brotherly love? 
By the way, Islam and Christianity are very similar religions. Both teach superiority, missionary / proselytizing, monotheism, and a similar doctrine base. We might want to analyze the similarities between the two religions before decrying one.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Nevada said:


> *The Problem:* Mostly their problem is US military & economic intervention in the middle east, along with innocent Muslims being killed along the way.
> 
> *The Fix:* Stop military & economic intervention in the middle east.


The fix is to become energy independent of the Middle East. At that point we can pick up our marbles and go home.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

7thswan said:


> Couldn't be their religion or their "books" ? Must be all a coinkydink that they are all muslims....


Why not start another holy war while we're at it? It used to be very popular for Christians to kill, maim, and enslave in the name of God. Nice God.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s-not-even-close.html



> However, and this will probably shock many, so you might want to take a breath: Overwhelmingly, those who have committed terrorist attacks in the United States and Europe arenât Muslims. Letâs give that a moment to sink in.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

They raised his head into the air. People waved their guns and cheered. Everyone was happy that the execution had gone ahead.

That scene in Syria, that moment, was like a scene from the Middle Ages, the kind of thing you read about in history books. The war in Syria has reached the point where a person can be mercilessly killed in front of hundreds of people&#8212;who enjoy the spectacle.

As a human being I would never have wished to see what I saw. But as a journalist I have a camera and a responsibility. I have a responsibility to share what I saw that day. That&#8217;s why I am making this statement and that&#8217;s why I took the photographs. I will close this chapter soon and try never to remember it. (link)

The men who carried out this execution are the men who President Obama, and Secretary of State John Kerry are providing weapons to.

Will the walls of the larger Middle East contain the rabid hatred once the Jihadists run out of local victims ? Doubtful.

Open up the Big Cat cages within any Zoo and watch what happens after the slaughter.

They&#8217;ll hop the confinement walls.

Now Fully Armed. HUndreds watched with glee,read the rest ,the pics are very graphic,if they are still there....http://time.com/3425750/witness-to-a-syrian-execution-i-saw-a-scene-of-utter-cruelty/


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

First American killed in Paris attacks identified

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/1...ris-identified-as-california-college-student/


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Declan said:


> We need more politicians willing to just throw up their hands and say, "Sucks people are dying, but their circus, their monkeys."


Politicians don't have a problem doing that when we have no economic interest. Atrocities happen all the time in Africa, but we have no reason to care.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Let's not forget that it's the right that wants to send all the immigrants back to their decrepit country. We are rich enough to sustain a great deal of immigration, but it's easy to forget that we were once a melting pot, and still are to an extent.
> Now, what's wrong with giving some minorities a boost? It was only the 60s before blacks became fully accepted into society, and even so we still have the KKK. Do you see any prominent (key word there) black group in the US that wants to kill / enslave white people? To clarify, I'm a healthy white hetero male - as majority as they come. It irks me when someone else gets a job when they're a minority, and I could probably do a better job than them. But I try to maintain a historical perspective. I'm all for letting everyone be equal. It'll stop as soon as we get rid of hate groups, until then there is still plenty of discrimination. Blacks are thrown in prison more than whites who have committed similar crimes, etc. but this isn't about rascism - it's about decrying an entire religion is out to get you just because a minority happen to be terrorists. The KKK are probably adamant Christians. In fact, I know of several hard core Christians nearby who hate blacks. Hows that for brotherly love?
> By the way, Islam and Christianity are very similar religions. Both teach superiority, missionary / proselytizing, monotheism, and a similar doctrine base. We might want to analyze the similarities between the two religions before decrying one.


I'm gonna need links to verify that anyone on the right said they wanted to send back ANY immigrants. Immigrants built this country, basically!

And lets be clear about this "religion". Islam is a theocratic political movement, bent on conquering the world & setting up a caliphate. No 'clause' in our Constitution provides for this kind of 'worship'. 

As far as you knowing '"hard core christians who hate blacks", thanks for your study of 4, 5. If you have "hate" for another in your heart, you're not Christian.

I agree w/you re: hate groups. Just seems that these days more are filled w/people of color.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Heritagefarm said:


> Why not start another holy war while we're at it? It used to be very popular for Christians to kill, maim, and enslave in the name of God. Nice God.
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s-not-even-close.html


And the muslims aren't engaged in their sick "holy war";just because some don't fight/murder does not change what their "religion" is all about.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Why not start another holy war while we're at it? It used to be very popular for Christians to kill, maim, and enslave in the name of God. Nice God.
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s-not-even-close.html


You've seen this? Gotta have links, b/c I've not seen a Christian holding a severed head or murdering huge groups of innocent folks.

If you're speaking of the crusades, hey, lets stay in the current milleneum, or at least the last 750 yrs or so.
Crusades were to take back the land that was brutally taken.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> Ah, but now there's a whole big bunch in nearly all of Iraq.


The fact that they're mostly in Iraq doesn't make it a nation. It's an ideology as much as it's an organization. They don't have borders and they're not dependent on finances or organization the way conventional armies are. You can chase than out of Iraq, cut off their funding, and even kill their leaders, but the organization will still exist and be operational.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Darren said:


> The fix is to become energy independent of the Middle East. At that point we can pick up our marbles and go home.


The gulf oil spill and the refusal of the Keystone pipeline is looking pretty suspicious isn't it. Not at all when people add 2+2 and come to terms that we have a muslim for pres and so is John Brennan, that helped clean up obamas passport. Now to figure out if obama is being blackmailed or if brennan is helping. Might help to know brennan was there right before the attack.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

fireweed farm said:


> With that thinking we better be concerned about Christians reading their own book!


Because it implores us to kill those who are not Christian, or????

Equating Christianity and the Bible, to islam and the koran, is quite ridiculous. Read both, cover to cover, and get back to me.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

Tricky Grama said:


> You've seen this? Gotta have links, b/c I've not seen a Christian holding a severed head or murdering huge groups of innocent folks.
> 
> If you're speaking of the crusades, hey, lets stay in the current milleneum, or at least the last 750 yrs or so.
> Crusades were to take back the land that was brutally taken.




I will take your bait. You give me a verifiable number of ''severed head'' killings and we will compare them to ''collateral damage deaths''. I would guess that both are about as shocking to the dead persons family. When the defeated leader of Iraq was executed for war crimes the leaked video did not show anything that was very ''civilized''.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Tricky Grama said:


> I'm gonna need links to verify that anyone on the right said they wanted to send back ANY immigrants. Immigrants built this country, basically!
> 
> And lets be clear about this "religion". Islam is a theocratic political movement, bent on conquering the world & setting up a caliphate. No 'clause' in our Constitution provides for this kind of 'worship'.
> 
> ...


Ok, glad to see we agree on something. Now, I'm under the impression that is almost entirely the right that wants to throw illegals back to Mexico. Just listen to Trump talking about his wall.
And yes, as per the teachings of Christ, hate is generally frowned upon.
Now, I disagree with you on the constitutional thing. Our constitution agrees that all religions can exist in the country with certain limits within the law. Since Islam has been around for more than 500 years, and they haven't conquered the world, it's safe to say they're a religion.




Tricky Grama said:


> You've seen this? Gotta have links, b/c I've not seen a Christian holding a severed head or murdering huge groups of innocent folks.
> 
> If you're speaking of the crusades, hey, lets stay in the current milleneum, or at least the last 750 yrs or so.
> Crusades were to take back the land that was brutally taken.


Yes I was referring to the crusades.



7thswan said:


> The gulf oil spill and the refusal of the Keystone pipeline is looking pretty suspicious isn't it. Not at all when people add 2+2 and come to terms that we have a muslim for pres and so is John Brennan, that helped clean up obamas passport. Now to figure out if obama is being blackmailed or if brennan is helping. Might help to know brennan was there right before the attack.


Ack, the antiqued Obama-Muslim theory.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

farmerDale said:


> Because it implores us to kill those who are not Christian, or????
> 
> Equating Christianity and the Bible, to islam and the koran, is quite ridiculous. Read both, cover to cover, and get back to me.


None of us have time for that, and I doubt youve done that either. Let's check out a comparison chart. 

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Christianity_vs_Islam


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

no really said:


> Hehe, how you managed to insert electric cars into terrorism is interesting.
> 
> So seriously what do you think their problem is and how would you correct it?


Not interesting, logical. They [Arabs] have something that we want and will pay good money for. We go in there and make deals with the few "elite" governing their lands, we enrich them whilst they leave their countries in utter despoil. Some look at their leaders as the issue, some look at us as the driver of their pain. They have little to no capability to make war against our country, their best guided weapon is a suicide bomber, that's probably their greatest weapon. Do you use that weapon to strike a hardened target where even the best success brings minimal gain or do you choose a soft target and multiply the value of your effort?

In their effort to connect the dots, the solutions to their plight are few and costly.

No, I do not condone their acts in any way, shape or form. If we are going to stop it then we must look at the issues realistically.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

farmerDale said:


> Because it implores us to kill those who are not Christian, or????


 The old testament is quite clear about what is to be done to those worshipping other gods... Now you'll tell us that is all from a different time, but it shows it was once acceptable, even commanded by God, to kill infidels. 
Islam and Christianity have more in common than you are willing to admit.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

greg273 said:


> The old testament is quite clear about what is to be done to those worshipping other gods... Now you'll tell us that is all from a different time, but it shows it was once acceptable, even commanded by God, to kill infidels.
> Islam and Christianity have more in common than you are willing to admit.


Me thinks you have no idea what Christianity means. They have NOTHING in common. Nothing at all. Show me in the Bible, where God commands believers to kill infidels "wherever they are found". 

The God of the Bible is personal, loving, full of forgiveness, second chances and grace.

The god of the idiotic koran, is unforgiving, impersonal, to be feared, and has no grace whatsoever, no forgiveness, no plan for saving mankind, and no love. None whatsoever. There is only hate.


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

hippygirl said:


> How do you know? How CAN you know? Because their "vetting" produced no criminal history, no "known" association with terrorists/organizations? How reliable is/was the source of information used to vet...and how do they KNOW it is/was reliable?


No I have no way of knowing. But I would say it is safe to bet that anyone under the age of 5 with a Syrian passport is a refugee. So yes, I do believe that there are true war refugees among those coming. But I do not think that everyone should be given a free pass to move to a country of their choice since there is no way to vet them.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Heritagefarm said:


> None of us have time for that, and I doubt youve done that either. Let's check out a comparison chart.
> 
> http://www.diffen.com/difference/Christianity_vs_Islam


Thank you!! :bow: I've been saying this forevah, and I didn't know about the chart.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> Same old same old isn't it? The good guys should have had guns.


 Probably would have saved many lives. You don't stop a terrorist using a gun with a cell phone. 





Patchouli said:


> It's evil Muslim refugees.


Actually, yes it was. One had been in France for a few years but was a Muslim refuge nonetheless, just not one of the recent ones.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

BREAKING NEWS: Eiffel Tower area in Paris evacuated. Details to come


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

greg273 said:


> The old testament is quite clear about what is to be done to those worshipping other gods... Now you'll tell us that is all from a different time, but it shows it was once acceptable, even commanded by God, to kill infidels.
> Islam and Christianity have more in common than you are willing to admit.


The Old Testament is not Christianity
Christianity starts with the New Testament


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you!! :bow: I've been saying this forevah, and I didn't know about the chart.


Certainly. If you take a look, you'll find that Islam is supposed to be, and largely is, a peaceful religion. One the primary commands is charity.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Cornhusker said:


> The Old Testament is not Christianity
> Christianity starts with the New Testament


Yes but there are still pieces that are heavily carried over still, for instance the rabid resistance to gays.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

No one is defending the terrorists. I haven't seen a single post where someone stated they were in favor of the attacks.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

farmerDale said:


> Me thinks you have no idea what Christianity means. They have NOTHING in common. Nothing at all. Show me in the Bible, where God commands believers to kill infidels "wherever they are found".
> 
> The God of the Bible is personal, loving, full of forgiveness, second chances and grace.
> 
> The god of the idiotic koran, is unforgiving, impersonal, to be feared, and has no grace whatsoever, no forgiveness, no plan for saving mankind, and no love. None whatsoever. There is only hate.


The God of the Bible has killed entire cities filled with children and innocents before. You can't tell me that no matter how evil or corrupt a nation of city was, that there were not children or innocents by standing.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Heritagefarm said:


> Yes but there are still pieces that are heavily carried over still, for instance the rabid resistance to gays.



Rabid resistance?


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Heritagefarm said:


> Certainly. If you take a look, you'll find that Islam is supposed to be, and largely is, a peaceful religion. One the primary commands is charity.


Show us the schools and hospitals they have built in Central America please. The kids in Honduras who muslims have bought shoes and clothes for, the families in Bolivia who were built homes.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Heritagefarm said:


> The God of the Bible has killed entire cities filled with children and innocents before. You can't tell me that no matter how evil or corrupt a nation of city was, that there were not children or innocents by standing.


Which cities with innocents were wiped out? Please back up your claims with scripture. I know of wipeouts, floods, and such, where it is explicitly mentioned that there were no innocents, otherwise He would not have been Holy and Just.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Heritagefarm said:


> Yes but there are still pieces that are heavily carried over still, for instance the rabid resistance to gays.


As well they should it is against the teachings, Plain and Simple as THAT. 

Many should be doing this:










Stand At the Right Hand of the Lord


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Heritagefarm said:


> The God of the Bible has killed entire cities filled with children and innocents before. You can't tell me that no matter how evil or corrupt a nation of city was, that there were not children or innocents by standing.


So that makes it ok for muslims to kill?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

KentuckyDreamer said:


> And this is where my mind goes in circles. I learned of ISIS about a year ago when I saw the video of the "girl in the purple dress", a Yazidi girl named Aziza. My heart sank and has never been the same. Being ignorant is bliss.
> 
> Then, I learn how well these thugs are trained. To think they could not pass some "vetting process" seems naive to me.
> 
> ...


You can never fully vet anyone. History is full of people who were vetted and trusted but spent years betraying those who trusted them. but taking someone at face value when they come from a group which has been shown to have many members hostile to you is foolish to the extreme.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

KentuckyDreamer said:


> Collateral damage? I could not live with myself. It is hard enough now trying to make sense of everything. I accept it will happen, it is happening now. But minimize it to the nth degree.
> 
> In my opinion, if I throw out my humanity, I am no better than the politicians that repulse me.


Is killing 1 innocent adult while killing 1,000 enemies ok? What about 2 adults? 5? What is your limit there?

And how many innocent people would you be willing to be allowed to be killed to save your wife? Your kids? Your entire family? How many would you be willing to trade for 129 innocent Parisians?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Heritagefarm said:


> No one is defending the terrorists. I haven't seen a single post where someone stated they were in favor of the attacks.


If you don't "hate" all muslims, according to some you're defending them. It doesn't make a lick of sense but that's what they say.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The problem with that is killing innocent Muslim civilians can be used as a recruiting tool by radicals. When we kill innocent people there isn't a lot to distinguish us from terrorists. In the end, our shelling of the doctors without borders hospital was a boon for Islamic radicals. We need to be very careful not to do that sort of thing.


Then we may as well wave the white flag and buy our women some burkas because we can't win. 

As for making more radicals, well its harsh but that's just more we need to kill or have others kill for us.

You can't make peace with someone who thinks you should either do what they want or be dead. Ask a German Jew that tried to get along with the Nazis.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

arabian knight said:


> As well they should it is against the teachings, Plain and Simple as THAT.
> 
> Many should be doing this:
> 
> ...


So, no, I won't stand at the right hand of your fairy tale hero. Are you offended by my words? Should we call the PC police? You having some ISIS style urges deep down inside where only you and God can look?

See to your own soul, it might not be as safe as you think.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> If we haven't learned anything else over the past decade, it's that conventional military force is ineffective against terror organizations.


Not quite. A conventional military force used correctly, i.e. as part of the force spectrum, can be VERY effective against them. As I have pointed out before there are only two ways to win a war against terrorist and they both have the same goal. The goal is, to use an old phrase, "to win the hearts and minds" of the populace. The only two ways to to that is to make the populace like you more than they fear the terrorist or to fear you more than they fear the terrorist. 

When you are facing a terrorist group which beheads and burns people alive the like option probably isn't going to work. You can dig all the wells you want, show all the farmers you can find how to raise better crops and/livestock and provide all the free medical care you wish its not going to make them risk having to watch their children being burned to death.

That leaves only the other option. You have to absolutely and totally ruthless in your pursuit of any and all who support your enemy. Its in this case where conventional forces are quite effective.

The problem is the United States most likely will never again have the guts to do this therefore we are doomed to live as open targets until we fall as a nation.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Raeven said:


> You know, if I was a radicalized terrorist, I can think of half a dozen ways to come into the United States that are far, far easier and less challenging than trying to enter as a lawful immigrant seeking permanent asylum with an attendant, extensive vetting process.
> 
> But maybe they're more stupid than we are.


But would it be cheaper, the feds will pick up most, if not all, your transportation and housing cost as a refuge. And would you have as much trust of those around you? After all everyone feels so sorry for the poor refuges and want to do all they can to help them.?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Just out of random curiosity, how many of you have actually been the minority in a Muslim country? Obama will take them all in because if chaos breaks out(not far from it now) he gets to declare martial law and become a dictator that he is ---- close to now. I believe we need to get on line with tanks trackers and grunts and go north starting in Yemen and level it and give them 1 opportunity to leave or we do what we did in fallujah and ramadi, take em all out!


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> There's only one way to end terrorism, and that's to remove their motivation to act.


So your solution is to remove Islam from the world. A lot of people would think that's very good plan.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

farmerDale said:


> Me thinks you have no idea what Christianity means. They have NOTHING in common. Nothing at all. Show me in the Bible, where God commands believers to kill infidels "wherever they are found". .


 We've been over this before, you told us those violent passages in Dueteronomy were just stuff for the Jews to follow.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> That's because we're concerned about collateral damage. Watcher doesn't think we should worry so much about that.


When we refuse our troops the ability to fire on armed people unless fired upon first then we are WAY too concerned about collateral damage.

What's your ratio limit? Is it on to kill 1 innocent person if we kill 1,000 enemies? 1:500? 1:100? 1:1,000,000? Where do YOU set the limit?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> First you have to understand what their problem is, then find a way to minimize the problem.
> 
> (Hint: their problem isn't that they hate our freedom.)


No they hate our religion or lack thereof in their view.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

greg273 said:


> Christ didn't, but killing infidels is very popular in the Old Testament. I know, I know, that book was just for the Jews in ancient times, but its funny how some still use cherry-picked parts of it to justify their own prejudices.


I use the entire thing. God told the Jews what they had to do to have favor with Him. He has told Christians what they must do to to have His favor. As a Christian I don't have to slit the throat of a lamb and I can eat all the bacon I can afford. 

Ever read what Christians are told to do when the encounter someone who doesn't want to even hear about Christ? I'll give you a hint it isn't behead them.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Mostly their problem is our military & economic intervention in the middle east, along with innocent Muslims being killed along the way. While other countries are complicit, they see the USA as most of the problem.
> 
> In truth, when oil becomes less of a strategic commodity as electric cars begin to dominate the market, the middle east won't be so important to us. After we lose economic interest in the region we won't care who is killing who, much like how we don't care who is killing who in Africa. When we lose interest in the region, Islamic terrorism against the USA will cease to be a problem.
> 
> In other words, this problem will probably take care of itself when we start using electric cars.


IOW, your plan is for everyone to pull out and let them get back to killing each other. Same as mine but I want to help them do it more effectively and as a good capitalist make money at the same time. Heck I been pushing this plan since back when Iraq and Iran were fighting each other. But its too harsh for the sensitive people of the west to even think about. They are the type who think if you feed a wild bear long enough it will fall in love with you and it won't eat you when you run out of food and it gets hungry.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Their goal is to either get everyone to be like them or kill those who resist. In other words it will never end because you will never eradicate Islam and even if all converted there would still be fighting look at the Middle East. Gaza and whatever bank they want over there have been fighting since the beginning of time what makes you think anything you do will change it? I have been in combat with these people, they do not care if they die they actually prefer it because of their beliefs. If any of you have been in combat I thank you. If you haven't your going off of what the Internet tells you and what you believe. Go walk where those who have given the ultimate sacrifice to defend your 1st amendment right and then come back and formulate a true opinion of Arabs and Muslims. You might be surprised what you learn there. Yes few will tarnish the reputation of all and I understand that to its fullest. We have done the same. On the flip side of that card my opinion of Arabs and Muslims is that I was willing to die and take as many with as I could. They are cowards that lace the road with IEDs m. Fight the Marines in conventional warfare and we would destroy them even worse. None the less I am not defending Arabs or Muslims and there will always be a burning hatred deep inside against them for the cowards that have taken my brothers! Walk the walk first and then you truly have the right to talk!


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Tricky Grama said:


> And in case anyone's up for calling me callous, a disclaimer: it was a horrendous thing to have to do. The # of innocent people killed, maimed, scarred for life is terrible. No one should have to go thru anything like that. In the meantime, Islam is screaming for something like that. It is the poor helpless folks who are born into that w/no fault of their own that I truly hurt for.


Callouses are there for a reason, they protect the body from damage. And they do not happen w/o reason nor pain. 

There are times when the good of the many must outweigh the good of the few. I know a lot of people, myself included, who would willing sacrifice themselves and even their families if doing so would save the lives of many others. Who here would not be willing to say drive their car with their family into a breach in a dam to save the lives of all the people in the towns down stream? Every life is worth fighting for but what is a greater love than laying your life down for the lives of others?


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Heritagefarm said:


> Ok, glad to see we agree on something. Now, I'm under the impression that is almost entirely the right that wants to throw illegals back to Mexico. Just listen to Trump talking about his wall.
> And yes, as per the teachings of Christ, hate is generally frowned upon.
> Now, I disagree with you on the constitutional thing. Our constitution agrees that all religions can exist in the country with certain limits within the law. Since Islam has been around for more than 500 years, and they haven't conquered the world, it's safe to say they're a religion.
> 
> ...


He was born a muslim went to a muslim madrassa as an indonesian citizen. One of the sickening things with islam one cannot just leave the cult,and worse it seems only sicko haters BECOME muslims. There is no,none,not any reason a human would except islam baised on 1 issue alone-how Women are treated. Now go make some lame excuse to defend the religion to me. There is none.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I don't care if they worship the great pumpkin. They massacre innocent people, non combatants. They are cowards of the lowest form. 

I have very dear friends and members of my family that are Muslim, foreign born, good people they do not consider the terrorists as true Muslims. 

That being said yeah I have been in Iraq and Afghanistan. Fought against and with them, good and bad like any other. But if anyone truly thinks they understand them from news reports you don't.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

greg273 said:


> We've been over this before, you told us those violent passages in Dueteronomy were just stuff for the Jews to follow.


Nice try. Real thorough rebuttal. You know, I was thinking. I find it interesting that God of the bible haters tend to talk about what our God supposedly did. Yet they do not believe in Him, so how can the points they make be taken seriously? 

It is like me talking about what Santa Clause did back in the day, using it to defend my erroneous, and weak arguments against those who believe in him fully. Even though I know for a fact that Santa is not real.

Interesting, no? God did something you think is accurate vs. what the Bible states. Yet you are against Him, and think He does not exist? But you use what you think He did, to defend the muslim, god of hate and god of no forgiveness. I just find it really interesting is all.

Regardless, He loves you. No matter what, He loves you.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

6,866. That is the number or men and women who have died in support of OIF and OEF. To hell with all them too right! Wake up and smell the coffee and start preparing yourself and family for the world that is coming. There is no peace anymore.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> Then we may as well wave the white flag and buy our women some burkas because we can't win.


The fact that the war in terror can't be won by military force doesn't mean we can't win.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> They massacre innocent people, non combatants. They are cowards of the lowest form.


They accuse us of the same thing.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> They accuse us of the same thing.


I don't really give a rat's butt!! Not going there with you it is basically ridiculous.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> I don't really give a rat's butt!! Not going there with you it is basically ridiculous.


Well, there's no denying that our military killed on the order of 150,000 Iraqis during our occupation. Everyone in Iraq knew someone who got killed by the US military. You don't expect them to like it, do you?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> They accuse us of the same thing.


If they would stop, so would everyone else! They won't stop though, because their book and imams tell them not too.

What is YOUR solution?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Well, there's no denying that our military killed on the order of 150,000 Iraqis during our occupation. Everyone in Iraq knew someone who got killed by the US military. You don't expect them to like it, do you?


I ISIS continues to kill Muslims in their own country, not exactly the good guys some seem to want to paint them. They are the ones that used women and children as shields and still do


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

farmerDale said:


> Yet you are against Him, and think He does not exist? But you use what you think He did, to defend the muslim, god of hate and god of no forgiveness. I just find it really interesting is all.
> .


 You assume far too much. And yes, I will defend ANYONE, Muslim, Jew, Christian, who is being falsely accused of something. 
Who or what you worship is your own business.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

I am willing to discuss things in civil, open minded terms and debate. However, I will say I find the intolerance and hate in this thread sickening. I was under the impression that Jesus taught total tolerance and Love towards all Humankind. Clearly, this is an erroneous assumption. Radical Islam is what we must fear - not Islam, a religion that has existed for 1,400 years. (A correction to a previous statement.) There is nothing that makes Christianity inherently more or less than any other religion; however, most people who are religious have been programmed to believe their own religion is superior to others. If we do not progress past petty misunderstandings, I fear for the future. That is all for now.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

no really said:


> I ISIS continues to kill Muslims in their own country, *not exactly the good guys some seem to want to paint them.*


 Who is saying that??


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

greg273 said:


> Who is saying that??


IMHO the ones that make excuses for their cowardly, barbaric actions.

I lost friends in the ME not just Americans, some of them were Iraqi. Things are not as black and white as some want to see them.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

no really said:


> IMHO the ones that make excuses for their cowardly, barbaric actions.
> .


 Excuses for ISIS?? Who did that??


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

greg273 said:


> Excuses for ISIS?? Who did that??


Excuses for killing because according to the poster during the conflict 150,000 Iraq's died. IMHO that is making an excuse.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

greg273 said:


> The old testament is quite clear about what is to be done to those worshipping other gods... Now you'll tell us that is all from a different time, but it shows it was once acceptable, even commanded by God, to kill infidels.
> Islam and Christianity have more in common than you are willing to admit.


Guess you better watch out for orthodox Jews then.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

no really said:


> Excuses for killing because according to the poster during the conflict 150,000 Iraq's died. IMHO that is making an excuse.


 I don't think that was an 'excuse', only a recognition of the fact there are still some PO'd people out there who will never forgive the US for invading their country. Much of the core of ISIS is composed of former Saddam loyalists.
As to purposefully killing civilians, there is no excuse for that.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Yes but there are still pieces that are heavily carried over still, for instance the rabid resistance to gays.


If you read it you will discover that God's "dislike" of sexual immorality is not limited to the OT. Fortunately for those who follow such practices Christians are not bound by the Mosaic Law. Otherwise right than rabidly resists them we'd be gathering stones.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

farmerDale said:


> Show us the schools and hospitals they have built in Central America please. The kids in Honduras who muslims have bought shoes and clothes for, the families in Bolivia who were built homes.


Better yet show me the wealthy muslim nations which are taking in hundreds of thousands of their fellow believers who are in need.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> The God of the Bible has killed entire cities filled with children and innocents before. You can't tell me that no matter how evil or corrupt a nation of city was, that there were not children or innocents by standing.


So you know more that God? If this is true I suggest you contact the French government so you can tell them which refuges are innocent and which are actually terrorist.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

no really said:


> I don't care if they worship the great pumpkin. They massacre innocent people, non combatants. They are cowards of the lowest form.
> 
> I have very dear friends and members of my family that are Muslim, foreign born, good people they do not consider the terrorists as true Muslims.
> 
> That being said yeah I have been in Iraq and Afghanistan. Fought against and with them, good and bad like any other. But if anyone truly thinks they understand them from news reports you don't.


:bow:


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

greg273 said:


> I don't think that was an 'excuse', only a recognition of the fact there are still some PO'd people out there who will never forgive the US for invading their country. Much of the core of ISIS is composed of former Saddam loyalists.
> As to purposefully killing civilians, there is no excuse for that.


I guess this has really hit a nerve. I have seen the things these type of people have done in Iraq to their own. Suicide bomber in a market full of women and children. Trying to help the few survivors while waiting for the secondary attack. The smells, the cries for help the body parts that there is no way to ID to give the families closure. Yeah, it has hit a nerve and brought back way to many memories.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Nevada... Just so you know, every Iraqi probably knows more people killed by insurgents, sectarian violence, and criminal activity. If we're going to talk about the Iraq War, I don't think we should forget about the massive string of bombings between late 2004 and 2007. Insurgent bombs were killing hundreds of people at once sometimes. I don't know about all of you, but I scrolled through those Yahoo picture reels so that, at the very least, I wouldn't forget what other people were living through. ISIS may blame us. But I'm sure some Iraqis would love to give them all a dirt nap for what the insurgents did to their homes and for what they're doing now.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The fact that the war in terror can't be won by military force doesn't mean we can't win.


Really? Care to show me where such a war wasn't won w/o military force? When one side is ready, willing and able to use violence to win the other side has two choices. Fight back or surrender.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> They accuse us of the same thing.


And if someone accuses you of being a rapist does that make it so?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Nevada said:


> Well, there's no denying that our military killed on the order of 150,000 Iraqis during our occupation. Everyone in Iraq knew someone who got killed by the US military. You don't expect them to like it, do you?


Gee whiz I wonder why?!?! Because the vast majority change their minds when they want to be insurgents and then turn in their neighbor to get protection or money! I hope you have been there Nevada!


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wiscto said:


> Nevada... Just so you know, every Iraqi probably knows more people killed by insurgents, sectarian violence, and criminal activity. If we're going to talk about the Iraq War, I don't think we should forget about the massive string of bombings between late 2004 and 2007. Insurgent bombs were killing hundreds of people at once sometimes. I don't know about all of you, but I scrolled through those Yahoo picture reels so that, at the very least, I wouldn't forget what other people were living through. ISIS may blame us. But I'm sure some Iraqis would love to give them all a dirt nap for what the insurgents did to their homes and for what they're doing now.


How would Americans act if they had foreign troops carrying rifles in their neighborhoods? These people were invaded & occupied, and they didn't like it. Insurgency was to be expected. While the insurgency was brutal, it's not altogether an evil thing. After all, they were fighting for their country and their way of life. Many of us might do the same in similar circumstances.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Nevada...have you been to Iraq?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> And if someone accuses you of being a rapist does that make it so?


But our military admits that they're killing Muslims in Iraq. In fact they brag about it. I think I believe them.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> How would Americans act if they had foreign troops carrying rifles in their neighborhoods? These people were invaded & occupied, and they didn't like it. Insurgency was to be expected. While the insurgency was brutal, it's not altogether an evil thing. After all, they were fighting for their country and their way of life. Many of us might do the same in similar circumstances.


Not evil? Really?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Who else would our MILITARY be killing? Buddhists? It's a primarily Muslim country! Laws of probability!!!


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Nevada...have you been to Iraq?


No, but I've been to the middle east.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> No, but I've been to the middle east.


Are you the one that posted in another thread about Sharia law? That poster postulated that Sharia wasn't so bad because it protected women and here we don't do a good job of protection.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Who else would our MILITARY be killing? Buddhists? It's a primarily Muslim country! Laws of probability!!!


I don't know, by Watcher was denying that our military kills Muslims in Iraq.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Go visit Iraq or Afghanistan or any other hell hole where Americans lost their lives to free or change some other country. When women are killed for looking another man in the eyes it's time to take some lives. When their chicken ---- cowards lace the roads with IEDs and won't stand up and fight ---- right put 2 in the pump house. When they are so high on drugs they don't even realize they are dead and they have been shot 15 times and are still shooting at you. Yeah let's welcome that kind into our country when we already have enough Americans like that. Put some combat boots on and get a rifle and see what it means to fight for the life of the Marine to your left and right!


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

Tricky Grama said:


> Better yet, how about showing us where its happened in the last couple hundred years. Then say the same 'bout Islam...its a radical theocratic political movement, bent on destroying western civilization & setting up a world-wide caliphate.
> 
> B/4 anyone says Christians would like to be 'world-wide' let me point out that prayers about this don't equate to mass murdering.


Currently Christians are fairly well behaved- all talk little action, but you don't have to go far back in history to see a role reversal on this.
Does Ireland count?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Well, there's no denying that our military killed on the order of 150,000 Iraqis during our occupation. Everyone in Iraq knew someone who got killed by the US military. You don't expect them to like it, do you?


There's the problem. We shouldn't give an airborne rodent's rectum if they like us. We should care that they either respect or fear us enough to keep them from attacking us. In that area power and fear are often equated with respect. You'll note that there are no leader/government in that part of the world that is not totalitarian.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Are you the one that posted in another thread about Sharia law? That poster postulated that Sharia wasn't so bad because it protected women and here we don't do a good job of protection.


No, that wasn't me. But Sharia law in Saudi Arabia is there to maintain a holy atmosphere. Saudi will need to depend on religious tourism when oil demand drops. They want Mecca & Medina to be visited in the future.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

I don't know where yall are at with this thread. But, I read this earlier, and found it moving and thought i'd share it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...tacks-isil-suspects-arrests-victims-live.html

part of the page shows words written by someone that was in paris named isobel bowdery. I think it was on facebook? I'm adding a few spaces, cause it's a little hard to read without paragraphs. but, her words, imo, were really good to read.

she wrote:

you never think it will happen to you. It was just a friday night at a rock show. the atmosphere was so happy and everyone was dancing and smiling. and then when the men came through the front entrance and began the shooting, we naiively believed it was all part of the show. It wasn't just a terrorist attack, it was a massacre. Dozens of people were shot right infront of me. Pools of blood filled the floor. Cries of grown men who held their girlfriends dead bodies pierced the small music venue. Futures demolished, families heartbroken. in an instant. 

Shocked and alone, I pretended to be dead for over an hour, lying among people who could see their loved ones motionless.. Holding my breath, trying to not move, not cry - not giving those men the fear they longed to see. I was incredibly lucky to survive. But so many didn't. The people who had been there for the exact same reasons as I - to have a fun friday night were innocent. This world is cruel. And acts like this are suppose to highlight the depravity of humans and the images of those men circuling us like vultures will haunt me for the rest of my life. The way they meticoulsy aimed at shot people around the standing area i was in the centre of without any consideration for human life. It didn't feel real. i expected any moment for someone to say it was just a nightmare. But being a survivor of this horror lets me able to shed light on the heroes. 

To the man who reassured me and put his life on line to try and cover my brain whilst i whimpered, to the couple whose last words of love kept me believing the good in the world, to the police who succeded in rescuing hundreds of people, to the complete strangers who picked me up from the road and consoled me during the 45 minutes I truly believed the boy i loved was dead, to the injured man who i had mistaken for him and then on my recognition that he was not Amaury, held me and told me everything was going to be fine despite being all alone and scared himself, to the woman who opened her doors to the survivors, to the friend who offered me shelter and went out to buy new clothes so i wouldnt have to wear this blood stained top, to all of you who have sent caring messages of support - you make me believe this world has the potential to be better. to never let this happen again. 

but most of this is to the 80 people who were murdered inside that venue, who weren't as lucky, who didnt get to wake up today and to all the pain that their friends and families are going through. I am so sorry. There's nothing that will fix the pain. I feel priviledged to be there for their last breaths. And truly beliving that I would join them, I promise that their last thoughts were not on the animals who caused all this. It was thinking of the people they loved. As i lay down in the blood of strangers and waiting for my bullet to end my mere 22 years, I envisioned every face that I have ever loved and whispered I love you. over and over again. reflecting on the highlights of my life. Wishing that those i love knew just how much, wishing that they knew that no matter what happened to me, to keep belieivng in the good in people. to not let those men win. 

Last night, the lives of many were forever changed and it is up to us to be better people. to live lives that the innocent victims of this tragedy dreamt about but sadly will now never be able to fulfil. RIP angels. You will never be forgotten.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> But our military admits that they're killing Muslims in Iraq. In fact they brag about it. I think I believe them.


I'm willing to bet you have admitted if not bragged about having sex therefore you are clearly a rapist.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> No, but I've been to the middle east.


That's like saying you haven't been to Hell's Kitchen but you have been to New York City.


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

farmerDale said:


> Show us the schools and hospitals they have built in Central America please. The kids in Honduras who muslims have bought shoes and clothes for, the families in Bolivia who were built homes.


Thankfully Muslims haven't spread their religion by sword, disease, torture, tricks and more recently "aid" like the Christians have done and continue to do in South America etc etc.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I don't know, by Watcher was denying that our military kills Muslims in Iraq.


Post where I said that, otherwise I say you are a liar.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> We shouldn't give an airborne rodent's rectum if they like us.


I didn't say they didn't like us, I said they didn't like being invaded and occupied.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> Post where I said that, otherwise I say you are a liar.


_"And if someone accuses you of being a rapist does that make it so"_

That was in response to me saying that we also kill Muslims in Iraq.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Nevada said:


> How would Americans act if they had foreign troops carrying rifles in their neighborhoods? These people were invaded & occupied, and they didn't like it. Insurgency was to be expected. While the insurgency was brutal, it's not altogether an evil thing. After all, they were fighting for their country and their way of life. Many of us might do the same in similar circumstances.


1. A huge number of the insurgents in the Iraq War were foreign.
2. Not all of the Iraqi insurgents now follow ISIS.
3. Your point about invasions and occupations making more enemies than friends is a good one, but when you talk about those ISIS members who were once part of the Iraqi insurgency, you have to consider how many of them were ex-Iraqi military. If you do that, you have to consider the fact that most of the Iraqi military in 2003 was willing to let the occupation stand until they found out they weren't going to be able to keep their jobs. That isn't fighting for their country, that's fighting because they were out of money and power. Much of the Iraqi insurgency were ex-military Baath Party Sunni militants, and the Baath Party had never been anything other than Sunni militants. Which is why you had the Shiite insurgents fighting the Sunni insurgents, which is why they were bombing each others' mosques and neighborhoods, which is one of the reasons why the death toll was so high. So when you talk about ISIS, you have to remember that many of the Iraqi ISIS members who were also insurgents were _also_ Baath Party militants who had been keeping the rest of Iraq under their boots by torturing and killing them.
4. While the Shiite militias were certainly angry at us, you don't see them hanging out with ISIS today. 
5. ISIS isn't composed of ex-Iraqi insurgents only. They come from all over the world. Including places the west hasn't invaded in centuries. This isn't 100% a result of the Iraq War. Extremism has been growing at steady clip since the 70s. The vacuum we left and Assad's brutality set the stage, but this isn't all about anger over invasions. This is also decades of extremist brainwashing.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

no really said:


> Excuses for killing because according to the poster during the conflict 150,000 Iraq's died. IMHO that is making an excuse.


 I donât think you read my post very closely. Given the very strong feelings you have about your time spent in the region, that's not surprising.

I said *500,000*, not 150,000. And that's a conservative estimate. Out of a total population of 30 million Iraqis pre-invasion, that's about 1.7% of their total population. For proportionalityâs sake, if someone invaded us and thereby caused the deaths of 1.7% of our total population, directly or indirectly, that would mean killing about 6.4 million Americans.

I guess if we retaliated for an attack like that, it would just be an "excuse."

I made it perfectly clear in my post that what Sunni ISIS/ISIL did in retaliation was not acceptable. Those were my exact words. It cannot be tolerated. I said it was understandable. Big difference. If we fail to make an effort to 1) understand our true enemy; and 2) understand our true enemyâs motivations, we can never hope to prevail against them.

I respect your service, but not the government that sent you into harmâs way with so little insight or understanding about the conflict they started in Iraq. I am truly sorry for raising painful memories for you. But your experiences are precisely why I am so angry about a government that lit the fuse on the bomb in Iraq in such ignorance of what they were actually doing, is having huge repercussions to this day and will have ongoing repercussions far into the future. And I am saying we cannot ignore our own part in having created the horror show there that has spilled over into virtually every other contiguous country in that region -- and will almost certainly be felt on our own shores, too, before all is said and done. 

Let me also make clear, our incursion into Afghanistan was a separate matter, was for valid reasons and I am not critical of that action.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

I agree with much of what wistco has said, but I would make the observation that:

1 A huge number of of the insurgents *who came to Iraq* to fight were foreign.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> _"And if someone accuses you of being a rapist does that make it so"_
> 
> That was in response to me saying that we also kill Muslims in Iraq.


Nevada you have always had my respect because you are willing to stand up for your beliefs and provide proof for most of your stuff but claiming I have said something I did not is over the line.

Your post is not proof to support your lie that I said we were not killing muslums. Show proof that I said what you accuse me of or apologize.

I ask others to take a little time and follow the thread of the 'conversation'. Nevada responded to the post "They massacre innocent people, non combatants. " with "They accuse us of the same thing." to which I responded "And if someone accuses you of being a rapist does that make it so?" Then tell us if there is any honest way my post could be interpreted as me saying we were not killing Muslims, only deliberately killing innocents.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Raeven said:


> I don&#8217;t think you read my post very closely. Given the very strong feelings you have about your time spent in the region, that's not surprising.
> 
> I said *500,000*, not 150,000. And that's a conservative estimate. Out of a total population of 30 million Iraqis pre-invasion, that's about 1.7% of their total population. For proportionality&#8217;s sake, if someone invaded us and thereby caused the deaths of 1.7% of our total population, directly or indirectly, that would mean killing about 6.4 million Americans.
> 
> ...


I reread the post I was talking about, it was Nevada. 

I also remember it was a coalition not just the US. I to am critical of many things done in Iraq. But I also remember a large portion of the population being very glad to have us there. I was the political machinations by our government and others that caused problems. To many trying to make a buck off the war, gotta love those lobbyists. Not!!

You have to understand that barbaric actions against civilians was happening long before we got there.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> Your post is not proof to support your lie that I said we were not killing muslums. Show proof that I said what you accuse me of or apologize.


Then what was that post in reply to?


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Just to clarify my point. No doubt some members of ISIS are angry about the Iraq War. But that isn't all of it, not even close. ISIS is Sunni. Sunnis are a minority in both Iraq and Syria, but the Sunnis were running Iraq through the Baath Party before 2003. They were killing and torturing back then, too, to hold onto control... Now they don't have control. A huge part of ISIS agenda is murdering everyone who is not Sunni, or who refuses to convert, and conquering all of Iraq and the "Levant" for Sunni Islam. Let's not forget that.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wiscto said:


> Just to clarify my point. No doubt some members of ISIS are angry about the Iraq War. But that isn't all of it, not even close. ISIS is Sunni. Sunnis are a minority in both Iraq and Syria, but the Sunnis were running Iraq through the Baath Party before 2003. They were killing and torturing back then, too, to hold onto control... Now they don't have control. A huge part of ISIS agenda is murdering everyone who is not Sunni, or who refuses to convert, and conquering all of Iraq and the "Levant" for Sunni Islam. Let's not forget that.


Sure, Sunnis want their previous power & money back, and they're willing to kill for it.

But let's not forget that the USA is in the middle of that fight also. It was the provisional government that ousted Sunnis from power and handed it to Shiites. They haven't forgotten.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

wiscto said:


> Just to clarify my point. No doubt some members of ISIS are angry about the Iraq War. But that isn't all of it, not even close. ISIS is Sunni. Sunnis are a minority in both Iraq and Syria, but the Sunnis were running Iraq through the Baath Party before 2003. They were killing and torturing back then, too, to hold onto control... Now they don't have control. A huge part of ISIS agenda is murdering everyone who is not Sunni, or who refuses to convert, and conquering all of Iraq and the "Levant" for Sunni Islam. Let's not forget that.


 Which is exactly why De-Ba'athification was such a stupid move. It left them with nothing to do BUT organize into ISIS/ISIL. We are not in disagreement.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Sure, Sunnis want their previous power & money back, and they're willing to kill for it.
> 
> But let's not forget that the USA is in the middle of that fight also. It was the provisional government that ousted Sunnis from power and handed it to Shiites. They haven't forgotten.



And no one should forget the abuses Saddam Hussein's rule perpetrated.

Iraq's era under President Saddam Hussein was notorious for its severe violations of human rights. Secret police, torture, mass murder, rape, deportations, forced disappearances, assassinations, chemical warfare, and the destruction of southern Iraq's marshes were some of the methods the country's Ba'athist government used to maintain control. The total number of deaths related to torture and murder during this period are unknown. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International issued regular reports of widespread imprisonment and torture.

Human rights organizations have documented government-approved executions, acts of torture and rape for decades since Saddam Hussein came to power in 1979 until his fall in 2003.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein's_Iraq


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Nevada said:


> Sure, Sunnis want their previous power & money back, and they're willing to kill for it.
> 
> But let's not forget that the USA is in the middle of that fight also. It was the provisional government that ousted Sunnis from power and handed it to Shiites. They haven't forgotten.


I'm sure they haven't. I'm sure the Shiites haven't forgotten that the west installed the Baath Party in the first place. But the Shiite militias didn't trap the Yazidi on a mountain and try to rape and murder them all. I'm just saying we are reaping a little more than just what we've sewn.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Raeven said:


> Which is exactly why De-Ba'athification was such a stupid move. It left them with nothing to do BUT organize into ISIS/ISIL. We are not in disagreement.


Yea. Strategically we forgot why we looked the other way for so long.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Then what was that post in reply to?


It doesn't matter you can NOT post where I said we were not killing Muslims. 

You didn't read my post? It was in response to where you equated the terrorist killing innocents to Americans in combat by saying 'they say the same of us'.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

wiscto said:


> Yea. Strategically we forgot why we looked the other way for so long.


But just to make sure I'm still clear on my point. It was de-Baathification that angered most of Saddam's military, and they in turn caused quite a bit of the casualties themselves through the insurgency.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

no really said:


> And no one should forget the abuses Saddam Hussein's rule perpetrated.
> 
> Iraq's era under President Saddam Hussein was notorious for its severe violations of human rights. Secret police, torture, mass murder, rape, deportations, forced disappearances, assassinations, chemical warfare, and the destruction of southern Iraq's marshes were some of the methods the country's Ba'athist government used to maintain control. The total number of deaths related to torture and murder during this period are unknown. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International issued regular reports of widespread imprisonment and torture.
> 
> ...


No one is forgetting any of that. But to spend 3 trillion dollars, sacrifice 4,500 American soldiers' lives, maim or otherwise damage another 32,000, radicalize all the tribal factions, kill 500,000 of their people, destroy their infrastructure, spread instability and unrest throughout the entire region, alienate traditional allies, all to dispose of one evil, aging dictator... 

Worth it?

And do you honestly think we were there to "liberate" the Iraqi people? There is no evidence there was any real plan for that, despite all the rhetoric.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

#1- I think I speak for most Marines on this, we don't care why we are there, who we are engaging, or what reason we are engaging them. We get sent to do dirty jobs and they get done. When it must be destroyed over night call the Marines, we are generally destructive in nature and going overboard is standard operating procedures. 
#2- I could care less about America, you and your rights when I was in combat. I did not care what the mission was I just knew it had to be done because that's what Marines do. I cared about the Marines to my left and right. I have lost too many brothers to both wars but take pride in the fact that all the Marines that were ever in my charge are all alive and still have all their digits and limbs! 
#3- iraq needed the ass whoopin'.....we failed because it went right back to what it was. The Muslim/Arabs are an untrustworthy people. The president or whatever he calls himself threatened to join the insurgency if we didn't help with what he wanted. See where their loyalty is. 
#4- Saudi has very little terror crap going on because the king pays to keep it off his soil, adding to the greed theory! 
#5- no one here is going to do anything to change any of what has happened or what will happen. For my fellow vets thank you for doing what you do and what you have done. There are many things I will live with for the rest of my life but I don't reckon any are regrettable.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Raeven said:


> No one is forgetting any of that. But to spend 3 trillion dollars, sacrifice 4,500 American soldiers' lives, maim or otherwise damage another 32,000, radicalize all the tribal factions, kill 500,000 of their people, destroy their infrastructure, spread instability and unrest throughout the entire region, alienate traditional allies, all to dispose of one evil, aging dictator...
> 
> Worth it?
> 
> And do you honestly think we were there to "liberate" the Iraqi people? There is no evidence there was any real plan for that, despite all the rhetoric.


Worth it? Darn tooting! Let's be real though, America needs to take them all over and take the ---- oil too! To hell with them all, stop letting them dictate the economy based on oil. America is the "youngest" and needs to rear up and make a mark and show some muscle.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

[No message]


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

fireweed farm said:


> Thankfully Muslims haven't spread their religion by sword, disease, torture, tricks and more recently "aid" like the Christians have done and continue to do in South America etc etc.


Example? Tell me how my missionary friend is "spreading" his "religion" in Honduras by sword, disease, torture and tricks, and with aid.

Very curious about that. I am not sure how building a school, and building homes for the poor is the same as killing non believers?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

fireweed farm said:


> Thankfully Muslims haven't spread their religion by sword, disease, torture, tricks and more recently "aid" like the Christians have done and continue to do in South America etc etc.


Wow, scary you got some links to those atrocities. :teehee:


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> #1- I think I speak for most Marines on this, we don't care why we are there, who we are engaging, or what reason we are engaging them. We get sent to do dirty jobs and they get done. When it must be destroyed over night call the Marines, we are generally destructive in nature and going overboard is standard operating procedures.
> #2- I could care less about America, you and your rights when I was in combat. I did not care what the mission was I just knew it had to be done because that's what Marines do. I cared about the Marines to my left and right. I have lost too many brothers to both wars but take pride in the fact that all the Marines that were ever in my charge are all alive and still have all their digits and limbs!
> #3- iraq needed the ass whoopin'.....we failed because it went right back to what it was. The Muslim/Arabs are an untrustworthy people. The president or whatever he calls himself threatened to join the insurgency if we didn't help with what he wanted. See where their loyalty is.
> #4- Saudi has very little terror crap going on because the king pays to keep it off his soil, adding to the greed theory!
> #5- no one here is going to do anything to change any of what has happened or what will happen. For my fellow vets thank you for doing what you do and what you have done. There are many things I will live with for the rest of my life but I don't reckon any are regrettable.


I know it doesn't matter because I wasn't there, but unlike a lot of people I would never blame any of you for doing what you had to do to look out for each other. I'm glad you did. It's on the government to decide when and how to use military force and it's on them when they fudge it up. You all did better than anyone else could have. I know somebody has to be there when the president says go, and I know what happens if no one is, and I have a ton of respect for all of you.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

...............


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

farmerDale said:


> Example? Tell me how my missionary friend is "spreading" his "religion" in Honduras by sword, disease, torture and tricks, and with aid.
> 
> Very curious about that. I am not sure how building a school, and building homes for the poor is the same as killing non believers?


Have you ever travelled to the third world? And I don't mean beach resorts in Mexico. What I've found is what we assume is poor is actually a perfectly contented way of life. Living off the land and water in a tropical climate isn't as horrid as it looks to us, with our fancy clothes and cars. I've found third world people to IMO be happier and certainly less socially isolated than we are. 

Building "necessities" for "poor people" is the current Christian way of indoctrination. Missionaries. You're friend has been sent by God, he is pretty sure.


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

no really said:


> Wow, scary you got some links to those atrocities. :teehee:


I'd suggest google as I guarantee you won't believe anything I put up.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> stop letting them dictate the economy based on oil.


Iraqis dictating the oil economy? They're just going along for the ride.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Nevada said:


> Iraqis dictating the oil economy? They're just going along for the ride.


Them as in the oil producing countries. You know the Arabs/Muslims!


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

fireweed farm said:


> Have you ever travelled to the third world? And I don't mean beach resorts in Mexico. What I've found is what we assume is poor is actually a perfectly contented way of life. Living off the land and water in a tropical climate isn't as horrid as it looks to us, with our fancy clothes and cars. I've found third world people to IMO be happier and certainly less socially isolated than we are.
> 
> Building "necessities" for "poor people" is the current Christian way of indoctrination. Missionaries. You're friend has been sent by God, he is pretty sure.


No, helping people isn't the "current Christian way of indoctrination". Helping people has been a core feature of being a Christian since Christ walked the earth. It's called the golden rule.

I'm sure anyone is free to refuse Christian help if they please to avoid indoctrination and all, but keep it in mind if you find yourself needing something someday and a Christian reaches out to help you.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Them as in the oil producing countries. You know the Arabs/Muslims!


Oil is sold way below its actual supply based value. The top 3 oil producers are the United States, Saudi Arabia, Russia. In that order. Followed by China, Canada, UAB, Iran, Iraq, Brazil. 

Country of origin isn't the only chapter in that story. The oil industry controls oil prices. BP and the American companies are still by far the most powerful people in the world. They control the most lucrative consumer bases and they can hurt people financially, not to mention the tail wags the dog...and the dog has huge teeth.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

fireweed farm said:


> Have you ever travelled to the third world? And I don't mean beach resorts in Mexico. What I've found is what we assume is poor is actually a perfectly contented way of life. Living off the land and water in a tropical climate isn't as horrid as it looks to us, with our fancy clothes and cars. I've found third world people to IMO be happier and certainly less socially isolated than we are.
> 
> Building "necessities" for "poor people" is the current Christian way of indoctrination. Missionaries. You're friend has been sent by God, he is pretty sure.


Yes, this is actually a common historical theme. It's generally very common for major societies, except early American (pre-1500), to send out missionaries and proselytize. In this way, they hope to convert the nomadic, primitive, Neolithic, however you like to call it. People have an inate fear of the unknown; converting it to the known is an easy fix. In actuality, the primitive people (and in this case, insert "everyone who is not Christian,") were in no way less fuctional than normal societies.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

fireweed farm said:


> Have you ever travelled to the third world? And I don't mean beach resorts in Mexico. What I've found is what we assume is poor is actually a perfectly contented way of life. Living off the land and water in a tropical climate isn't as horrid as it looks to us, with our fancy clothes and cars. I've found third world people to IMO be happier and certainly less socially isolated than we are.
> 
> Building "necessities" for "poor people" is the current Christian way of indoctrination. Missionaries. You're friend has been sent by God, he is pretty sure.


I find it strange that so many of those perfectly content people leave that wonderful lifestyle to come here illegally. We have somewhere about 11 million of them here right now.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

no really said:


> Wow, scary you got some links to those atrocities. :teehee:


I think they must have seen:
http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

wiscto said:


> Oil is sold way below its actual supply based value. The top 3 oil producers are Russia, Saudi Arabia, and the United States. In that order. Followed by China, Iran, Canada, UAB, Venezuala, Kuwait, Iraq.
> 
> Country of origin isn't the only chapter in that story. The oil industry controls oil prices. BP and the American companies are still by far the most powerful people in the world. They control the most lucrative consumer bases and they can hurt people financially, not to mention the tail wags the dog...and the dog has huge teeth.


If they oil industry controls oil prices, they suck at it. Who would allow the price of something they control to drop from about $100 a barrel to less than half that?


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

poppy said:


> I find it strange that so many of those perfectly content people leave that wonderful lifestyle to come here illegally. We have somewhere about 11 million of them here right now.


Hmm you mean Latin Americans? They were tortured into Christianity hundreds of years ago, nothing new. Just looked up "how many people live in latin america" and Wikipedia says 600 million. So in effect either America doesn't look like a better place to most of them,,, or we are about to be swamped!


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

This was Bush's realm. You got proof of WMD? Then those that were killed in our attempt at saving the world from those WMD were killed illegally in both national and international senses.

Please validate the killing of people for a misunderstoodination. [words that Bush used, and yes, I voted for him to restore the honor to America in 2000, did not vote for him again].


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

fireweed farm said:


> Have you ever travelled to the third world? And I don't mean beach resorts in Mexico. What I've found is what we assume is poor is actually a perfectly contented way of life. Living off the land and water in a tropical climate isn't as horrid as it looks to us, with our fancy clothes and cars. I've found third world people to IMO be happier and certainly less socially isolated than we are.
> 
> Building "necessities" for "poor people" is the current Christian way of indoctrination. Missionaries. You're friend has been sent by God, he is pretty sure.


People are not content when drug lords pillage villages and destroy their homes. I see no muslims going forth and building homes for Honduran people. Why is that? And yes, the people building the homes, hospitals and schools, are Christians. And they do not say a thing about God, unless the people actually ask for more information. A bible believing Christian does things out of love. We do not force or coerce people to believe, unlike muslims. You are painfully off the mark, and I feel bad because it seems you hate us and what we do.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

But i REALLY miss this one the most.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

poppy said:


> If they oil industry controls oil prices, they suck at it. Who would allow the price of something they control to drop from about $100 a barrel to less than half that?


So they can sell it at a price people can afford and will pay for, because people were starting to talk about alternative fuels back when they were raking in record profits. Don't break the goose that laid the golden egg.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Only thing this picture fails to mention is that Congress had made it illegal to fund or in any way support the Nicaraguan rebels. Far more impeachable than Clinton lying about having sexual relations with that woman. Kool-Aid is tasty, though, hey?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

wiscto said:


> Oil is sold way below its actual supply based value. The top 3 oil producers are the United States, Saudi Arabia, Russia. In that order. Followed by China, Canada, UAB, Iran, Iraq, Brazil.
> 
> Country of origin isn't the only chapter in that story. The oil industry controls oil prices. BP and the American companies are still by far the most powerful people in the world. They control the most lucrative consumer bases and they can hurt people financially, not to mention the tail wags the dog...and the dog has huge teeth.


Where you alive during the oil embargo when OPEC was formed and the Saudis and their minions stopped the flow of oi?. In those days you could only buy gasoline on even or odd days depending on your license plate.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The fact that they're mostly in Iraq doesn't make it a nation. It's an ideology as much as it's an organization. They don't have borders and they're not dependent on finances or organization the way conventional armies are. You can chase than out of Iraq, cut off their funding, and even kill their leaders, but the organization will still exist and be operational.


No, you bomb them ALL in Iraq. Then you seek them out in other places. We DO know where they are.
As far as what this Idiotincharge has done, here's an example: when the Russians began bombing they sent 66 per day. Hit 64 (I may be off 1 or 2) & we sent something like 6. Hit one.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Wanda said:


> I will take your bait. You give me a verifiable number of ''severed head'' killings and we will compare them to ''collateral damage deaths''. I would guess that both are about as shocking to the dead persons family. When the defeated leader of Iraq was executed for war crimes the leaked video did not show anything that was very ''civilized''.


Collateral damage. Yup. So by this reasoning, everyone involved in winning WWI & II are as awful as ISIS. You've gotta be kidding. 
Did we kill Saddam? He was tried in Iraqi court & executed by them.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Have they identified the terrorists?

Were they white teenagers?
Were they white adults? White males?

Were they 90 year old ladies?
Were they 6 year old children?

Because those are the 'types' of people who are pulled aside and strip searched by airport security.

So who were the terrorists?
Tell me about them........


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Why is the hateful left defending the terrorists?
Is your weird adoration of Obama so deep you'll follow him no matter what?
He's bringing them here, importing thousands, and you idiots are letting him.
When they come your town and rape your women, blow up your schools, who will you blame then?
I doubt if you have the brains or the courage to blame Obama.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

farmerDale said:


> Show us the schools and hospitals they have built in Central America please. The kids in Honduras who muslims have bought shoes and clothes for, the families in Bolivia who were built homes.


Post of the day award.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

Tricky Grama said:


> Collateral damage. Yup. So by this reasoning, everyone involved in winning WWI & II are as awful as ISIS. You've gotta be kidding.
> Did we kill Saddam? He was tried in Iraqi court & executed by them.




Please show your ''severed head'' numbers that you like to use in your posts. Then they can be used to compare with other ways of killing. Do you think that your repeated reference of these horrible acts is why they are used? Dead is the same whether it be a gun shot or knife cut. If A person fears an act it will be used by there enemy as an advantage. A bullet to the head is much easier so they do not do it for convenience.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Yes but there are still pieces that are heavily carried over still, for instance the rabid resistance to gays.


What an insult. 
Yup, ya don't understand at all.
Old Testament -New Testament. And Christians had NOTHING to do w/destroying cities in old testament. Educate yourself.

Christ taught to love everyone. Never said to accept the sins of anyone, however.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

watcher said:


> I use the entire thing. God told the Jews what they had to do to have favor with Him. He has told Christians what they must do to to have His favor. As a Christian I don't have to slit the throat of a lamb and I can eat all the bacon I can afford.
> 
> Ever read what Christians are told to do when the encounter someone who doesn't want to even hear about Christ? I'll give you a hint it isn't behead them.


Post of the day award.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Tricky Grama said:


> What an insult.
> Yup, ya don't understand at all.
> Old Testament -New Testament. And Christians had NOTHING to do w/destroying cities in old testament. Educate yourself.
> 
> Christ taught to love everyone. Never said to accept the sins of anyone, however.


You can't teach those too hate filled to learn


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I think they must have seen:
> http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/


Must be it, here I thought they were talking about recently. :lookout:


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> You can't teach those too hate filled to learn


I agree. Sad, but very true.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Wanda said:


> Please show your ''severed head'' numbers that you like to use in your posts. Then they can be used to compare with other ways of killing. Do you think that your repeated reference of these horrible acts is why they are used? Dead is the same whether it be a gun shot or knife cut. If A person fears an act it will be used by there enemy as an advantage. A bullet to the head is much easier so they do not do it for convenience.


Do you not believe they behead people? Innocent people? Do you not believe they burn folks in cages? How about the cowards who shot folks the other nite in Paris? Do you not know what this thread is about? And you think w/c we discuss it is the reason they DO IT?
ACI! Some reasoning. 
Yup, dead is dead. I agree. So perhaps we should just follow their lead & do some of that too?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Being neither Christian nor Muslim I find it interesting that discussions of terrorism seems to devolve into a contest of who has the most blood on their hands. 

Terrorism is terrorism no matter what excuse the perpetrators claim.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> I agree. Sad, but very true.


 Calling it hate is too easy. We seem to think others think as we do. We all want the same things. We would be shocked if we could get inside someone's head and understand their thoughts.

While we search for aliens in space, they live among us on Earth. We are aliens to each other. We may seem similar in opinion and deed. Ego keeps us from truly understanding that we are all very different. Binding together in tribes, cultures and nations is convenient, nothing else. It suits our immediate purposes. We get used to it.

When we encounter someone with vastly different mental processes, dealing with understanding and compassion may work, or as in the case of radical Islam will not. We're fools to use a one size fits all approach.

The real solution is generational where education and culture can be used to change a population. You can't do that when the core beliefs are allowed to continue. If you're not in it for the long term, you're kicking the can down the road.

As an example we should have never left Iraq. The nation should have been pacified by the education of generations.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Darren said:


> Calling it hate is too easy. We seem to think others think as we do. We all want the same things. We would be shocked if we could get inside someone's head and understand their thoughts.
> 
> While we search for aliens in space, they live among us on Earth. We are aliens to each other. We may seem similar in opinion and deed. Ego keeps us from truly understanding that we are all very different. Binding together in tribes, cultures and nations is convenient, nothing else. It suits our immediate purposes. We get used to it.
> 
> ...


Agree. I see the inability to face the differences in mental processes as an innate fear. Fear of the unknown, it seems it is easier to ignore than face. If it is faced than the realization that it could touch them on a personal level is presented.

Being optimistic is great but reality will keep you safe.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Cornhusker said:


> Why is the hateful left defending the terrorists?
> Is your weird adoration of Obama so deep you'll follow him no matter what?
> He's bringing them here, importing thousands, and you idiots are letting him.
> When they come your town and rape your women, blow up your schools, who will you blame then?
> I doubt if you have the brains or the courage to blame Obama.


Again, no one is defending the terrorists. Your problem is that you are lumping a full quarter of the world population into the category of terrorist. Are you fully prepared to do that? Do you honestly believe that one in every four person is evil and should be jailed, prosecuted, etc? Because if that is true, if you actually think _all_ Muslims are bad, then someone is filled with far more hate than I will ever be capable of.
A further point I'd like to clarify is that I personally only seem like a liberal. I'm a moderate. But let's not make this personal.



Tricky Grama said:


> No one has shown that in modern times this is remotely true. May have been an issue in the 1000s.
> I'd list the muslim atrocities & dare ya to compare w/your list. Not enuf bandwidth here to do that.
> Its almost laughable-except its so vile- that you folks who are mostly non-conservatives cannot see that Islam is a threat. Cannot see that ALL who are causing the murderous acts all over the world are Islamists. Not a Christian in the bunch. They are killing their own as well as Christians.


I am a moderate conservative. I vote mostly Republican. I don't like Obama - didn't vote for him either. He's done some good stuff, and some bad stuff. So has every other politician.
And no, all terrorists are not Islam. Islam is peaceful. Let's look up Wahhabism:

Wahhabism



> Wahhabism has been accused of being "a source of global terrorism",[27][28] inspiring the ideology of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL),[29] and for causing disunity in the Muslim community by labeling Muslims who disagreed with the Wahhabi definition of monotheism as apostates[30] (takfir), thus paving the way for their bloodshed.[31][32][33] It has also been criticized for the destruction of historic mazaars, mausoleums, and other Muslim and non-Muslim buildings and artifacts.


Terrorists target Muslims just as well as anyone else, at least so it seems to me. 

Also, I once again wish to dispel the myth that all terrorists are Muslim, and that all Muslims are terrorists.

Terrorism











Judging from this graph, we should be throwing all the Latinos in jail.



Tricky Grama said:


> What an insult.
> Yup, ya don't understand at all.
> Old Testament -New Testament. And Christians had NOTHING to do w/destroying cities in old testament. Educate yourself.
> 
> Christ taught to love everyone. Never said to accept the sins of anyone, however.


I did not intend for it to be an insult. I respect all religion, and everyone's right to worship however they may choose. What I personally do have a problem with is labeling an *entire Â¼ of the world population as terrorists*. Because that's how many Muslims there are.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Heritagefarm said:


> Again, no one is defending the terrorists. Your problem is that you are lumping a full quarter of the world population into the category of terrorist. Are you fully prepared to do that? Do you honestly believe that one in every four person is evil and should be jailed, prosecuted, etc? Because if that is true, if you actually think _all_ Muslims are bad, then someone is filled with far more hate than I will ever be capable of.
> A further point I'd like to clarify is that I personally only seem like a liberal. I'm a moderate. But let's not make this personal.
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting graph, I totally agree with the Latin percentage. Living on the border and being Mexican it is IMO accurate. A bit surprised by the extreme left percentage though.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Another thought as the graph is the US, I wonder what the stats would be world wide.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Keep in mind that was US Soil only.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Do we know ANYTHING concrete about the terrorist?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Graphs like that are useless unless you know the criteria they are based on. Thinking Israel should be driven off their land or wiped out seems to me to be extremist and I will guarantee more than 6% of the Muslim population in this country think it would be a good thing. Worldwide I expect the number would be over 90%. Just ask them. So, yes, about 1/4 of the world population is extremist in that regard. Many Arabs are not extremist but they also are not Muslim.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Again, no one is defending the terrorists. Your problem is that you are lumping a full quarter of the world population into the category of terrorist. Are you fully prepared to do that? Do you honestly believe that one in every four person is evil and should be jailed, prosecuted, etc? Because if that is true, if you actually think _all_ Muslims are bad, then someone is filled with far more hate than I will ever be capable of.
> A further point I'd like to clarify is that I personally only seem like a liberal. I'm a moderate. But let's not make this personal.
> 
> 
> ...


Again, I'll reiterate. NOT ALL muslims are terrorists. NOT all. We can say that "HUNDREDS" of times & yet y'all will call us muslim haters & say not all muslims are terrorists. NOT ALL muslims are terrorists. 
Yet take a look at the world TODAY! Want a list? No Christians on it, I'll tell ya now. 
If Islam is so wonderful, why are folks leaving the 'heck'hole in droves that they've caused? There are a few ok countries who identify w/Islam that are not in constant turmoil. So, why don't they take in THEIR OWN? Why have they not taken thousands of refuges?

My NP at the docs' office is most assuredly not a terrorist.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Laura Zone 10 said:


> Do we know ANYTHING concrete about the terrorist?


We know they are savage murderers belonging to the religion of Islam, they are currently scattering around the world, and the number of attacks will continue to increase.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Darren said:


> As an example we should have never left Iraq. The nation should have been pacified by the education of generations.


 Actually, we should have never gone there in the first place. You gonna volunteer to be referee in their civil war? What arrogance. 'Go home Yankee'.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

poppy said:


> Graphs like that are useless unless you know the criteria they are based on. Thinking Israel should be driven off their land or wiped out seems to me to be extremist and I will guarantee more than 6% of the Muslim population in this country think it would be a good thing. Worldwide I expect the number would be over 90%. Just ask them. So, yes, about 1/4 of the world population is extremist in that regard. Many Arabs are not extremist but they also are not Muslim.


Do we even know who compiled the graph? Shoot, I could make one too.
Another thing to consider is what is considered terrorism by the graphmaker. 

I'll go along w/notsomuch terrorism here. But unlike a lot of non-conserves, were concerned about the well being of all souls, not just ourselves.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

poppy said:


> We know they are savage murderers belonging to the religion of Islam, they are currently scattering around the world, and the number of attacks will continue to increase.


Do we have names? Locations? Ages?
Do they have any of them in custody?
Did any of them die, and they were fingerprinted and the identity has been revealed?


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Tricky Grama said:


> Again, I'll reiterate. NOT ALL muslims are terrorists. NOT all.


 Its about time you admitted that. You're right,its not ALL, not MOST, in fact it is a tiny, tiny minority. 
Did you even bother to look up the denouncements you said you 'didn't see'?


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Darren said:


> As an example we should have never left Iraq. The nation should have been pacified by the education of generations.


Boy isn't that the truth. Soon as we pulled out whammy the land was once again taken over. What did American Troops die for? There is a whole bunch of vets that are ticked off at what has taken place after we left.
We should be over there in high force right now~! And close up our boarders TIGHT as the same time. Start picking a few off and they cross and by golly they would stop coming in illegal. LOL


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Heritagefarm said:


> Again, no one is defending the terrorists. Your problem is that you are lumping a full quarter of the world population into the category of terrorist. Are you fully prepared to do that? Do you honestly believe that one in every four person is evil and should be jailed, prosecuted, etc? Because if that is true, if you actually think _all_ Muslims are bad, then someone is filled with far more hate than I will ever be capable of.
> A further point I'd like to clarify is that I personally only seem like a liberal. I'm a moderate. But let's not make this personal.
> 
> 
> ...


I'd like to see the same graphic which shows deaths rather than incidents. How would the 3,000 9/11 deaths show up. according to the link there were 318 incidents of terrorism. 911 and the deaths due to radical Muslims probably exceeds all of the other 317 incidents in total murdered.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Here's the graphic showing the total number of incidents.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

wiscto said:


> Oil is sold way below its actual supply based value. The top 3 oil producers are the United States, Saudi Arabia, Russia. In that order. Followed by China, Canada, UAB, Iran, Iraq, Brazil.
> 
> Country of origin isn't the only chapter in that story. The oil industry controls oil prices. BP and the American companies are still by far the most powerful people in the world. They control the most lucrative consumer bases and they can hurt people financially, not to mention the tail wags the dog...and the dog has huge teeth.


OPEC, read about them.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Tricky Grama said:


> No, you bomb them ALL in Iraq. Then you seek them out in other places. We DO know where they are.
> As far as what this Idiotincharge has done, here's an example: when the Russians began bombing they sent 66 per day. Hit 64 (I may be off 1 or 2) & we sent something like 6. Hit one.


 I don't think you actually pay attention to this. If you did, you wouldn't be quoting such inaccurate numbers.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

no really said:


> And no one should forget the abuses Saddam Hussein's rule perpetrated.
> 
> Iraq's era under President Saddam Hussein was notorious for its severe violations of human rights. Secret police, torture, mass murder, rape, deportations, forced disappearances, assassinations, chemical warfare, and the destruction of southern Iraq's marshes were some of the methods the country's Ba'athist government used to maintain control.


 Yeah, Saddam was a bad dude. And we supported him every step of the way. Probably should NOT have been propping him up in the 80's with cash, weapons, and intel.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

greg273 said:


> Yeah, Saddam was a bad dude. And we supported him every step of the way. Probably should NOT have been propping him up in the 80's with cash, weapons, and intel.



Agree, but do you continue to support or correct the problem?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

wiscto said:


> So they can sell it at a price people can afford and will pay for, because people were starting to talk about alternative fuels back when they were raking in record profits. Don't break the goose that laid the golden egg.


Complete nonsense. Oil is a commodity just like any other. It's price goes up and down as supply and demand dictate. The "oil industry" is made up of several factions and many of them have different ideas. Yes, they all want to make money just like Lay's wants to make money off of potato chips and Hershey wants to make money off of candy. That's why they are in business. The oil markets set the price. Right now there is a glut of oil and prices are low. I guarantee the oil industry wishes they were higher and would raise them higher if they had the capability. But, there is no way they can do it. The world economy is slow and that weakens demand. The "oil industry" is NOT one big cartel and they neither control supply nor demand. Yes, a large producer can cut production to try and raise the price but other producers need the income and will pump more to fill the void.


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

greg273 said:


> Actually, we should have never gone there in the first place. You gonna volunteer to be referee in their civil war? What arrogance. 'Go home Yankee'.


I don't think we had a choice. As long as we've been chained to the Saudis, we've been doing their bidding.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

no really said:


> Interesting graph, I totally agree with the Latin percentage. Living on the border and being Mexican it is IMO accurate. A bit surprised by the extreme left percentage though.


US Soil only!

Where are all those Right Wing Extremist we hear about??


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

no really said:


> Another thought as the graph is the US, I wonder what the stats would be world wide.


If the dead where stacked up like cord wood, Muslims would still have a bigger pile than any other group in this country. I'm curious about the misrepresentation of that graph. Mark Twain said it best, âFigures don't Lie, but _Liars Figure_.â


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

po boy said:


> US Soil only!
> 
> Where are all those Right Wing Extremist we hear about??


I reckon they're lumped in the 16% of "other", along with black extremists like Black Lives Matter and gangs and college protesters. As a white man, I feel slighted that we don't have our own group.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

This is a pretty good site for info

http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> What did American Troops die for?


I've been asking that for a decade.


----------



## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

poppy said:


> I reckon they're lumped in the 16% of "other", along with black extremists like Black Lives Matter and gangs and college protesters. As a white man, I feel slighted that we don't have our own group.


Lets see Left Wing is 24% and Communist is a low 5%. Other is 16%. Appears those mean Right wingers would be under 5%.


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## Knight9 (Dec 29, 2012)

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm



Yup. Sure sounds like a peaceful religion. One may begin to wonder if the "radical Muslims" are actually the "good" Muslims that are actually obeying their religion.


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Nevada said:


> I've been asking that for a decade.


Isn't it obvious? Whose butt where we covering in Kuwait, Iraq, Libya and now Syria?


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I've been asking that for a decade.


If we would have gone over there ands BLASTED the heck out of them instead of this LIBERAL don't shoot unless you are being shot at, and even THEN ASK before doing it. BULL FEATHERS~!

And the war would NOT have lasted as long as it did, NOR would have that many Americans been killed either~! NOR would the place be going to heck in a hand basket NOW. Such a waste this is going to be unless WE and Others GET TOYUGH for once, instead of a, well I can't put what kind of army obama has turned it into and the liberals have demanded the way things should go.


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Darren said:


> I don't think we had a choice. As long as we've been chained to the Saudis, we've been doing their bidding.


 Of course there was a choice, and Saudi Arabia was in no danger of being invaded by Saddam. That was some BS propaganda put out to get the public on board with the first Gulf War. And there was absolutely NO REASON to go back there in 03. 
Chaos, death, and a stronger Iran were the only outcomes of that war. Oh, and ISIS, can't forget about those folks, those 'dead enders' that Rummy told us about.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

greg273 said:


> Oh you're gonna fit right in on this forum. Welcome to the echo chamber.


It isn't an echo chamber. It's just that some people can actually see with their own eyes and others can't.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Laura Zone 10 said:


> Have they identified the terrorists?
> 
> Were they white teenagers?
> Were they white adults? White males?
> ...


Here's some more info. Strangely enough, they all seem to be young Muslim males except for one woman they are still looking for. Three of them were radicalized Frenchmen. From some of the opinions on here, I was sure there would be some murdering Christians involved but apparently not.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/16/world/europe/paris-terror-attack.html?_r=0


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

po boy said:


> Lets see Left Wing is 24% and Communist is a low 5%. Other is 16%. Appears those mean Right wingers would be under 5%.


And this conclusion of yours is exactly why you and others of your ilk are so easily manipulated by propaganda "news" organizations and pundits like Fox, Breitbart, Infowars and others. You want your "facts" mashed up like pablum and spoon-fed to you, so you can seize on some bit of information that you believe and hope supports your already-hardened world view -- but is, in reality, wholly misleading.

You didn't dig into the numbers, did you? You didn't look at what made up the "Left Wing Extremists" portion of the chart, did you?

If you had, you'd have learned the following *facts*:

- The chart is based on information gathered from 1980 through 2005, so it would not include any incidents of terror occurring past that year. So obviously many recent acts of terror are not represented in the chart. It does not, for example, include the Wisconsin Sikh massacre of 2012; the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church shooting of 2008; the Charleston, South Carolina shooting of 2015... you see?

- "Left Wing Extremists" in the chart include such groups as Earth Liberation Front and Animal Liberation Front. Their many acts of terror included such things as tree spiking, vandalism and destruction of property. While technically 'terrorism' for purposes of compiling the chart, few would argue that those types of acts are on a par with suicide bombers blowing themselves up in crowded places or on a plane.

You need to learn how to parse information properly to learn what it is actually telling you.

By the way, did you know that Fox "News" tells the whole, actual truth about 18% of the time? If you consider that a sufficient source of facts and good information, then that is sad.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...s-show-false-statements-on-fox-news-nbcmsnbc/

Question everything.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> If we would have gone over there ands BLASTED the heck out of them instead of this LIBERAL don't shoot unless you are being shot at, and even THEN ASK before doing it. BULL FEATHERS~!
> 
> And the war would NOT have lasted as long as it did, NOR would have that many Americans been killed either~! NOR would the place be going to heck in a hand basket NOW. Such a waste this is going to be unless WE and Others GET TOYUGH for once, instead of a, well I can't put what kind of army obama has turned it into and the liberals have demanded the way things should go.


You're criticizing how GWB handled Iraq?


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Raeven said:


> And this conclusion of yours is exactly why you and others of your ilk are so easily manipulated by propaganda "news" organizations and pundits like Fox, Breitbart, Infowars and others. You want your "facts" mashed up like pablum and spoon-fed to you, so you can seize on some bit of information that you believe and hope supports your already-hardened world view -- but is, in reality, wholly misleading.
> 
> You didn't dig into the numbers, did you? You didn't look at what made up the "Left Wing Extremists" portion of the chart, did you?
> 
> ...


And picking and choosing your examples is why it's impossible to take you and you ilk seriously. The data also don't include things like the Boston bombing or the murder of the National Guard guys down south. Why didn't you include those?


----------



## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

Darren said:


> As an example we should have never left Iraq. The nation should have been pacified by the education of generations.


Yeah, little problem with that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.–Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_U.S._troops_from_Iraq

For those too lazy to look it up and read, the Status of Forces Agreement signed by GWB in December 2008 (note, this date is after he learned Obama would be following him into office) *prohibited* the United States from staying in Iraq past December 2011, unless an agreement could be reached with Iraqi officials. Because President al-Maliki would not guarantee immunity to our troops for any acts committed on Iraqi soil, something no president had ever (or would) agree to, President Obama refused to sign the agreement that would have allowed us to leave troops past that date.


----------



## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

poppy said:


> And picking and choosing your examples is why it's impossible to take you and you ilk seriously. The data also don't include things like the Boston bombing or the murder of the National Guard guys down south. Why didn't you include those?


You can characterize it as "picking and choosing," if you like. I just grabbed the first ones that came to mind. I wasn't making a laundry list. 

You're right -- the Boston City bombing was not included in the chart information, either. Feel free to add others to the list if you feel that's important. 

My point was that recent acts of terror in this country are not part of the chart, and therefore it is disingenuous to use them as a basis to discuss acts of terror when those acts were not included in it -- and to put so much weight on the acts of terror by "Left Wing Extremists."

ETA: I would make the additional point that since po boy's post was focused on crowing about "Left Wing Terrorism," mine was naturally focused on right wing terrorism, not radical jihadists' terrorism. Unless you're trying to make the point that radical jihadists' terrorism is the same thing as left wing terrorism. Are you?


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

poppy said:


> Here's some more info. Strangely enough, they all seem to be young Muslim males except for one woman they are still looking for. Three of them were radicalized Frenchmen. From some of the opinions on here, I was sure there would be some murdering Christians involved but apparently not.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/16/world/europe/paris-terror-attack.html?_r=0


Poppy.....this article the mom of one of the terrorist says "in 2010 he started to become radicalized and we don't know how it happened".........

Well, bit by bit, piece by piece, kumbye ya and all....
Little indoctrination at school, government run media pour out sweet little lies, all in the name of political correctness........

Yeah, this crap is in America RIGHT NOW.
Hello, is this thing on? Wake up!!


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Raeven said:


> Yeah, little problem with that:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.–Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement
> 
> ...


The problem with keeping troops in Iraq is that there was no clear military objective after the initial invasion. The fact is that we could maintain peace-keeping forces in Iraq for decades and still not change the country so it could operate peacefully.

Sure, we could have kept US troops in Iraq, and we could even send troops back in today. But what would it change? What could they accomplish that wasn't accomplished before?

We'll do what we have to do to maintain enough security to keep the Iraqi oil flowing. That's the best we can hope for.


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

greg273 said:


> Of course there was a choice, and Saudi Arabia was in no danger of being invaded by Saddam. That was some BS propaganda put out to get the public on board with the first Gulf War. And there was absolutely NO REASON to go back there in 03.
> Chaos, death, and a stronger Iran were the only outcomes of that war. Oh, and ISIS, can't forget about those folks, those 'dead enders' that Rummy told us about.


Gregg, were you around in 1973 when the Saudis proved they could bring us to our knees using oil as a weapon? That wasn't always the case in earlier times.


----------



## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

Nevada said:


> The problem with keeping troops in Iraq is that there was no clear military objective after the initial invasion. The fact is that we could maintain peace-keeping forces in Iraq for decades and still not change the country so it could operate peacefully.
> 
> Sure, we could have kept US troops in Iraq, and we could even send troops back in today. But what would it change? What could they accomplish that wasn't accomplished before?
> 
> We'll do what we have to do to maintain enough security to keep the Iraqi oil flowing. That's the best we can hope for.


Oh, I completely agree. I was not making the argument that it was a good idea to do it. Only that there were actual, practical, factual reasons why we didn't: The Status of Forces Agreement, and that the American people were pretty much sick of the whole thing by that time, anyway.

Now some have resumed their drum beat for war. I agree with you that in the absence of a clear, attainable objective, I do not support our involvement again, either. We may be able to come up with a clear objective, but unlikely an attainable one. So even though it's a horrible choice out of an array of horrible choices, sometimes you just have to let the trains crash and go do the mop-up when all is said and done.

I am encouraged by the fact that Putin's own people do not support his actions in Syria; that he is already trying to find a way out of the Ukraine and appears to have seriously overextended himself trying to expand Russia's interests. I believe he is going to learn the lessons of Afghanistan all over again. His people think so, too.

At this point, the best tool we've got is hearts and minds along with diplomacy. We blew our chance to be actual, real liberators, because that was never our true objective. Instead, we are where we are. And that is a very bad place, indeed. All the worse for having been a self-inflicted hemorrhage, and one for which many other nations are also paying the price -- including France, which was the point of this thread.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Raeven said:


> Oh, I completely agree. I was not making the argument that it was a good idea to do it.


While my post replied to you, my post wasn't really aimed at you. It was more for the benefit of those beating war drums.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

Nevada said:


> While my post replied to you, my post wasn't really aimed at you. It was more for the benefit of those beating war drums.


LOL, ok. If someone quotes me, I always assume they are expecting a response from me.  Thank you for clarifying, but I guess I'll let my post stand all the same.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Cut the Crud: The problem is islam, and it has to be exterminated.* Period.*
So, a little review for those of you who think they know things.



> 1.* Islam is a political system, NOT a religion*, and unless and until humanity wakes the hell up and STOPS referring to it as a religion, there is no hope. Islam is a hyper-aggressive, militaristic, expansionist, totalitarian political system designed to create a super-rich micro-oligarchical ruling class with a massive, destitute, genetically handicapped underclass below. The paper-thin faux-religious facade was a conscious, specific con from the very beginning â much like Mormonism and Scientology â a pure racket using borrowed and piggy-backed religious motifs to lend credibility to a massive, loosely-knit network of crime syndicate cells.
> 
> Here is a quote from Osama bin Laden that sums it all up:
> 
> ...


http://www.barnhardt.biz/2015/11/13/cut-the-crap-the-problem-is-islam-and-it-has-to-be-exterminated-period-2/


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> Cut the Crud: The problem is islam, and it has to be exterminated.* Period.*


You're not seriously suggesting genocide as the solution, are you?


----------



## Amadioranch (Jun 18, 2011)

arabian knight said:


> Cut the Crud: The problem is islam, and it has to be exterminated.* Period.*
> So, a little review for those of you who think they know things.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Knight9 (Dec 29, 2012)

greg273 said:


> Oh you're gonna fit right in on this forum. Welcome to the echo chamber.



I don't echo anyone. I read, investigate, and come up with my own conclusions. I have concluded that people who refer to Islam as "a religion of peace" are ill informed. I shared my conclusion. Feel free to reject it if you don't agree.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Nevada said:


> You're not seriously suggesting genocide as the solution, are you?


Many in this thread seem to believe it is a valid option. I'm just curious about how they plan on carrying out the execution of Â¼ of the world population.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

arabian knight said:


> Cut the Crud: The problem is islam, and it has to be exterminated.* Period.*


 Not gonna happen. Although getting rid of the hateful attitudes on both sides would be a good start.


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Knight9 said:


> I don't echo anyone. I read, investigate, and come up with my own conclusions. I have concluded that people who refer to Islam as "a religion of peace" are ill informed. I shared my conclusion. Feel free to reject it if you don't agree.


 Already rejected, thanks. Given the history of abuses by religious fanatics, I don't think any religion can claim the title 'Religion of Peace', but there are FAR more peaceful Muslims than violent ones.


----------



## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

Reports France has sent bombers to Syria.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

arabian knight said:


> Cut the Crud: The problem is islam, and it has to be exterminated.* Period.*
> So, a little review for those of you who think they know things.
> 
> 
> ...


A little extra review for you. Islam is a religion and Muslims are their followers. Islamism is what you are referring to a political mess. Good effort.


----------



## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

arabian knight said:


> Cut the Crud: The problem is islam, and it has to be exterminated.* Period.*


At least I am not the only one thinking that.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I have thought about this and I know we as a nation cannot handle the terrorists, but I believe there are other nations that have the will and might to do it.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

no really said:


> I have thought about this and I know we as a nation cannot handle the terrorists, but I believe there are other nations that have the will and might to do it.


Like Russia? China?


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

wiscto said:


> Like Russia? China?



Russia will IMHO play a large part of stopping the terror threat. They have a bit more skin in the game, having had terrorism touch them on a visceral level. The government is stronger in their will than any I know an their ability to enforce patriotism within the people. There military particularly the SF component are scary impressive. The whole attitude of the government does not seem to be bound by PC nor do they seem that concerned with collateral damage (not my choice of warfare). Proxy actions would be a large part of the engagements.

China I think can probably be a background player. 

The chance that one or the other can come up as a hero in putting a hurt on the terrorists would go a long way in promoting them to a more powerful niche... 

Just a bit of scenario running a few of us have been doing.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

GO FRANCE!
Bombs away baby, bombs away!

We better get our a doubles up there and support them!!!!!!!!


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

no really said:


> Russia will IMHO play a large part of stopping the terror threat..


 Russia is 99% focused on keeping Assad, or someone similar, in power to maintain their basing rights in Syria. Look up the number of strikes against IS versus the 'rebel' factions. If they are saving ISIS for last, its gonna be a while till they can get to them.
THe worst part of this is, besides being funded by taxes, oil, and theivery, ISIS is reportedly being funded by elements in Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey. Our supposed allies. What a crock. 
Our best bet is the Kurds, and about 25,000 NATO troops to drive into Raqqah and start killing jihadis.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I thought Bush was going to take care of that 10 years ago. Keeping us safe was the promise if we gave him the authority to use military force, unlimited funds, and most of our constitutional rights. What happened with that?


Not much, that was the point, right? What horrible attacks have we had since? Boston? What else?


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Nevada said:


> I thought Bush was going to take care of that 10 years ago. Keeping us safe was the promise if we gave him the authority to use military force, unlimited funds, and most of our constitutional rights. What happened with that?


Obama took over. Duh.:teehee:


----------



## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

gibbsgirl said:


> I agree things seem to be picking up to stop or slow Isis. But, it seems these groups are linked and almost just rebrand themselves with whoever is left every few years. Heard dozens of names of groups and regimes over the decades. Just seems to not end.
> 
> I always feel bad before bed when I hear of these tragedies. I think the hardest moments may be the first morning the survivors awaken the next day after, and for a split second forget the ones they lost the day before are gone forever. Said prayers tonight for them.
> 
> ...





Nevada said:


> I thought Bush was going to take care of that 10 years ago. Keeping us safe was the promise if we gave him the authority to use military force, unlimited funds, and most of our constitutional rights. What happened with that?


You should look no further than 1600 Pennsylvania ave and the Muslim occupying this residence , all of this is a direct result of his policies.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

greg273 said:


> Russia is 99% focused on keeping Assad, or someone similar, in power to maintain their basing rights in Syria. Look up the number of strikes against IS versus the 'rebel' factions. If they are saving ISIS for last, its gonna be a while till they can get to them.
> THe worst part of this is, besides being funded by taxes, oil, and theivery, ISIS is reportedly being funded by elements in Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey. Our supposed allies. What a crock.
> Our best bet is the Kurds, and about 25,000 NATO troops to drive into Raqqah and start killing jihadis.


Yeah, but they are IMO going to be the power in the ME, control the ones they can and dispose of the others. 

I don't think a US led effort will bring about any resolution, simply spend lives and money, in photo opportunity. Our government seems to believe their own hype, funny no one else does.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

M5farm said:


> You should look no further than 1600 Pennsylvania ave and the Muslim occupying this residence , all of this is a direct result of his policies.


He must be a good one then as there have been no successful attacks by foreign terrorists under his watch.


----------



## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

no really said:


> Russia will IMHO play a large part of stopping the terror threat. They have a bit more skin in the game, having had terrorism touch them on a visceral level. The government is stronger in their will than any I know an their ability to enforce patriotism within the people. There military particularly the SF component are scary impressive. The whole attitude of the government does not seem to be bound by PC nor do they seem that concerned with collateral damage (not my choice of warfare). Proxy actions would be a large part of the engagements.
> 
> China I think can probably be a background player.
> 
> ...


Russia is definitely the one with the most opportunity right now. Europe can't handle the refugee crisis, even if they think they can. Even if you pretend that the refugees are mostly families who will someday come to love Europe's culture and social freedom (the Turkish-Germans haven't yet...but I guess it's okay to dream), it's too much. It isn't like the refugees said, "Oh Germany only wants 800,000. Yea so we'll turn around." Russia and Assad can shut that border down. Turkey should have done it, but they're the most useless NATO country in the world and they couldn't wait for their own expats to have some Muslim friends in Europe. I know I tend to lean left, but I do believe the Muslims want to conquer Europe by simply moving in and out-reproducing them. 

China... I think China could get in the game but the odds are long. They're buddying up with Pakistan right now, and if Pakistan starts having problems with the Taliban again, China could be next in. If we leave. If we stay, that country will continue to be a problem. Because we're not going to do what China would probably do. I don't feel good about it, but it would take a huge monkey off our backs.


----------



## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

keenataz said:


> He must be a good one then as there have been no successful attacks by foreign terrorists under his watch.


 Muslims terrorists have attacked and killed people under his watch.


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

no really said:


> I don't think a US led effort will bring about any resolution, simply spend lives and money, in photo opportunity..


 It'd be nice to fix something for once, instead of just breaking it. I have no idea what 'photo op' you're talking about.
The main ones standing in the way of eliminating ISIS is the Turks. And just now I see Obama and Erdogon telling the world we need to 'step up attacks'. The man who could end it tomorrow was sitting right next to him. I am completely disgusted by the actions of the Turks in all this.


----------



## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

keenataz said:


> Name one person on this forum who has sympathized with terrorists. Now people like you need to hate all Muslims, good for you, but some of us can see more than that.


There have been a couple in the past, but it wasn't Muslim terrorists they were sympathizing with. Aside from that I have never seen anyone here defend terrorists.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

wiscto said:


> Russia is definitely the one with the most opportunity right now. Europe can't handle the refugee crisis, even if they think they can. Even if you pretend that the refugees are mostly families who will someday come to love Europe's culture and social freedom (the Turkish-Germans haven't yet...but I guess it's okay to dream), it's too much. It isn't like the refugees said, "Oh Germany only wants 800,000. Yea so we'll turn around." Russia and Assad can shut that border down. Turkey should have done it, but they're the most useless NATO country in the world and they couldn't wait for their own expats to have some Muslim friends in Europe. I know I tend to lean left, but I do believe the Muslims want to conquer Europe by simply moving in and out-reproducing them.
> 
> China... I think China could get in the game but the odds are long. They're buddying up with Pakistan right now, and if Pakistan starts having problems with the Taliban again, China could be next in. If we leave. If we stay, that country will continue to be a problem. Because we're not going to do what China would probably do. I don't feel good about it, but it would take a huge monkey off our backs.



Agreed, basically we have become a non-player in the ME. We get very limited intel, so have no ability to react. How it will effect the global power structure will be interesting to say the least.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

M5farm said:


> Muslims terrorists have attacked and killed people under his watch.


Foreign ones? Can you list them?

And yes I acknowledge the Marathon bombers and that Ft Hood killer, but if that is blamed on Obama are you going to blame all terrorist attack like the Charleston killings on him.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

greg273 said:


> It'd be nice to fix something for once, instead of just breaking it. I have no idea what 'photo op' you're talking about.
> The main ones standing in the way of eliminating ISIS is the Turks. And just now I see Obama and Erdogon telling the world we need to 'step up attacks'. The man who could end it tomorrow was sitting right next to him. I am completely disgusted by the actions of the Turks in all this.


By photo ops I mean propaganda. Look at what we have accomplished in the fight against the major terror organizations. Kill an old man Bin Laden who was little more than a figure head, did it slow down attacks, did it effect the organization at all? Photo op, don't get me wrong SF did a tremendous job but the target was simply a political check box. ISIS was not taken seriously until it was to late. Due to our lack of proper intel they are now a very major player. 

We run limited bombing now, it doesn't seem to even effect the targets. Our involvement in the line up of effectiveness falling lower and lower.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

greg273 said:


> It'd be nice to fix something for once, instead of just breaking it. I have no idea what 'photo op' you're talking about.
> The main ones standing in the way of eliminating ISIS is the Turks. And just now I see Obama and Erdogon telling the world we need to 'step up attacks'. The man who could end it tomorrow was sitting right next to him. I am completely disgusted by the actions of the Turks in all this.


You're right about the Turks but wrong about Obama. He just said today we stand shoulder to shoulder with the Turks. He's just as bad as they are. Why did he just decide we need to "step up attacks"? Everyone knows Obama's strategy of bombing has been weak and ineffective from the start but today he suddenly realizes it? Really? Is he that disconnected from reality? Watch what he does. Despite what he says, he will not step up attacks in reality.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

no really said:


> By photo ops I mean propaganda. Look at what we have accomplished in the fight against the major terror organizations. Kill an old man Bin Laden who was little more than a figure head, did it slow down attacks, did it effect the organization at all? Photo op, don't get me wrong SF did a tremendous job but the target was simply a political check box. ISIS was not taken seriously until it was to late. Due to our lack of proper intel they are now a very major player.
> 
> We run limited bombing now, it doesn't seem to even effect the targets. Our involvement in the line up of effectiveness falling lower and lower.


I'm glad they take out specific terrorists when they can but it does not affect the terror groups one iota. Someone else steps right in to fill the void. Obama knew he was downplaying ISIS years ago when he called them a JV team and he's still doing it today when he lies and says they are contained. He knows they are spreading like cancer into other countries.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

poppy said:


> Everyone knows Obama's strategy of bombing has been weak and ineffective from the start but today he suddenly realizes it? .


 That is not what the Kurds are saying. US airpower helped make it possible for the Kurds to recapture Sinjar last Friday. Sinjar is not a minor town.


> ERBIL, Kurdistan Region - Kurdish President Masoud Barzani praised US-led coalition forces on Friday for providing aerial support to Peshmerga troops in the Shingal (Sinjar) offensive, retaking the city from the militants of the Islamic State (ISIS).
> 
> 
> &#8220;I would like to express my gratitude to the US and Coalition forces who through their unique air support helped Peshmerga in the liberation of Sinjar,&#8221; Barzani said in a written statement, issued late Friday after Kurdish military sources announced the whole of Shingal under Peshmerga control.


 http://rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/131120158


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

greg273 said:


> That is not what the Kurds are saying. US airpower helped make it possible for the Kurds to recapture Sinjar last Friday. Sinjar is not a minor town.


It would be a boon if the Kurds were supplied with better weapons and ammo. They are a fighting force that is impressive, supply them with what they have asked for in weaponry and stand back, they will do their utmost to take out the threat.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

keenataz said:


> Foreign ones? Can you list them?
> 
> And yes I acknowledge the Marathon bombers and that Ft Hood killer, but if that is blamed on Obama are you going to blame all terrorist attack like the Charleston killings on him.


No the Charleston killing were blamed on a flag! That should be my next mission get the rainbow flag banned because the gay African American killed 2 reporters on air!!!


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

keenataz said:


> Foreign ones? Can you list them?
> 
> And yes I acknowledge the Marathon bombers and that Ft Hood killer, but if that is blamed on Obama are you going to blame all terrorist attack like the Charleston killings on him.


I forgot 3/5 lost 29 Marines after they took over from us because Obama put Petraeus(spelling) in charge!!!! That was 2010-2011. Yup I'll give Obama credit for those lives.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

no really said:


> It would be a boon if the Kurds were supplied with better weapons and ammo. They are a fighting force that is impressive, supply them with what they have asked for in weaponry and stand back, they will do their utmost to take out the threat.


 Yes,they are getting some ammo, and we need to increase that support, but the duplicitous lawn jockeys in Turkey won't have it. We are the Kurds airforce though, plus we have special forces calling in airstikes now, which is a big improvement. 

The Turks can get bent, I've had it with their double-talk on this.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

This has become genuinely boring, though I concede, it is somewhat childish to admit that. I withdraw. Good night.


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## Knight9 (Dec 29, 2012)

greg273 said:


> Already rejected, thanks. Given the history of abuses by religious fanatics, I don't think any religion can claim the title 'Religion of Peace', but there are FAR more peaceful Muslims than violent ones.



Sorry, I think you miss read. I said Islam is not a religion of peace. That does not mean that there are not Muslims that are peaceful. It just means they are likely not strong adherents to the details of their religion and its instructions. And I can't turn on the news or TV without seeing media reps and others call Islam a 'religion of peace'. I didn't make up that title. I'm simply pointing out that if you actual read the tenants of the religion it is violent and seeks to dominate the world through any and all means necessary.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Knight9 said:


> Sorry, I think you miss read. I said Islam is not a religion of peace. That does not mean that there are not Muslims that are peaceful. It just means they are likely not strong adherents to the details of their religion and its instructions. And I can't turn on the news or TV without seeing media reps and others call Islam a 'religion of peace'. I didn't make up that title. I'm simply pointing out that if you actual read the tenants of the religion it is violent and seeks to dominate the world through any and all means necessary.


Correct!


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Iraq is saying they sent warnings that information gathered by their intelligence showed France, the US, and Iran were targets for ISIS attacks.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/iraq-says-shared-intel-france-u-iran-were-102216264.html


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

poppy said:


> Iraq is saying they sent warnings that information gathered by their intelligence showed France, the US, and Iran were targets for ISIS attacks.
> 
> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/iraq-says-shared-intel-france-u-iran-were-102216264.html


So they should have known ahead of time.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

no really said:


> Agree. I see the inability to face the differences in mental processes as an innate fear. Fear of the unknown, it seems it is easier to ignore than face. If it is faced than the realization that it could touch them on a personal level is presented.
> 
> Being optimistic is great but reality will keep you safe.


Hence the old saying; Be professional, be polite but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

greg273 said:


> Yeah, Saddam was a bad dude. And we supported him every step of the way. Probably should NOT have been propping him up in the 80's with cash, weapons, and intel.


Right and wrong. Our mistake in the 80s was providing weapons ONLY to Iraq. We should have been supplying weapons to Iran as well. If we had they quite possibly still be killing each other and most of the rest of the world would have been much safer. 

But you'd think you were suggesting we strap bomb laden puppies to little kids then drop them as packages from B52s when you brought up selling arms to Iran in the 80s.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

watcher said:


> Right and wrong. Our mistake in the 80s was providing weapons ONLY to Iraq. We should have been supplying weapons to Iran as well. If we had they quite possibly still be killing each other and most of the rest of the world would have been much safer.
> 
> But you'd think you were suggesting we strap bomb laden puppies to little kids then drop them as packages from B52s when you brought up selling arms to Iran in the 80s.


I think in the 60s we did give cash and guns to Iran and in the 80s we helped Iraq. And when the Russians were fighting Afghanistan we helped bin laden only to be screwed by him in 2001!


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> You're criticizing how GWB handled Iraq?


GWHB? I did at the time and will continue to do so. He followed in the losing footsteps of Truman, LBJ and Nixon. He didn't fight to win he fought for a draw, which as history continues to show us is just another way to say a loss.

If he had taken out the Saddam government then he could have used the political pull of SA, Kuwait and the other Arab nations to replace it with a stable government


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The problem with keeping troops in Iraq is that there was no clear military objective after the initial invasion. The fact is that we could maintain peace-keeping forces in Iraq for decades and still not change the country so it could operate peacefully.
> 
> Sure, we could have kept US troops in Iraq, and we could even send troops back in today. But what would it change? What could they accomplish that wasn't accomplished before?
> 
> We'll do what we have to do to maintain enough security to keep the Iraqi oil flowing. That's the best we can hope for.


As the victor, we were required by international law to provide security until they formed a government which was strong enough to govern.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> As the victor, we were required by international law to provide security until they formed a government which was strong enough to govern.


We did that, and then some.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> GWHB? I did at the time and will continue to do so. He followed in the losing footsteps of Truman, LBJ and Nixon. He didn't fight to win he fought for a draw, which as history continues to show us is just another way to say a loss.
> 
> If he had taken out the Saddam government then he could have used the political pull of SA, Kuwait and the other Arab nations to replace it with a stable government


Then why didn't Iraq get a stable government in 2003?


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Nevada said:


> We did that, and then some.


 Plus a $50 billion army that ISIS took half of.


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