# Well, I did it!



## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I'm posting this here in hopes to get some pros and cons about what we're planning. We've constructed all our out-buildings (about 50 x 30 barn with 8' shed on back; 16 x 16 buck house with 18 x 10 shed at side; 16 x 16 tool shed; 10 x 10 garden shed; 16 x 16 chicken house with divisions and covered pen; 16 x 16 all-enclosed & covered pen to house animals we're fattening for the freezer; 16 x 16 wood shed with 8 x 8 concrete slab; 15 x 12 processing center) ourselves. I designed them and David and I built them. So we're quite sure we can build our home. It is just that there will be "rules regulating the construction of our home" where there were none with all the other buildings we have put up. I will explain what I did and, hopefully, some of you in here can see what mistakes I made (or might make) and give me some constructive critique.

I called the Building Inspector's Office and spoke with the Inspector. (He "is" the one I had spoken to way back in 1995 who was friends with the neighbor who had been trying to get us to move...had wanted this tract but it had not been for sale at the time.) This time the Inspector had a different tone to his voice, was kind and even suggestive. 

I informed him of our need to do all the work ourselves, our extremely limited income and, thus, our need to be able to finish the construction over a lengthy period of time. He told me there were 2 types of permits (one for foundation and/or a "full" one which included all connected to the construction of the house, including the foundation/basement). All permits have a 6 month time frame within which to complete the work. He told me those could be renewed every 6 months without further cost to me as long as the work continued to progress and he was out to inspect "something" at least twice a year, during each 6-month extension.

My trust level is terribly low; so I would really appreciate some type of information that might help me solidify what he told me just in case he changes his mind during the lengthy process we will need to construct the house.

He told me getting a "full" permit would hold "today" building regulations in place for me no matter how much they may change over the course of time it takes us to complete the home. He said the regulations are always getting worse each 3 yrs they are examined; and this is why getting a "full" permit now would be advantageous to us. (Of course, he did not say whether or not any new "extension" would need to take into account the regulations in place at the time of each new extension; but his initial statement, in my mind, excluded this.)

He said I would need #2 grade lumber; that many people used Spruce and Yellow Pine; that they were finding Yellow Pine more difficult to work with.

I told him, when we got the basement done, we would be wanting to move into it so as to sell the trailer for extra cash to complete the construction of the house. He said that would not be a problem with the Building Department as long as there was a "walk-out" entrance in the basement. (We were planning this anyway due to the slope of the land in that area; however, we might need to place some steps there...not sure...and he didn't mention whether or not that walk-out needed to be on ground level to the basement floor.)

He, also, stated all wood that would be touching earth or concrete would need to be treated wood. (We had known that and was already planning on it anyway; but this was "volunteered" information, which was quite different from our communications back in 1995; so I began to be hopeful he might actually work with us to accomplish our goal.)

I asked him about placing a "flat" roof on the basement to keep it dry as we lived in it and, using that flat roof as the floor of the house. He told me, in his experience, this did not work out well as the floors had rotted and had caused people more trouble. He suggested a "steep" sloping roof over the basement, working this into the floor plan of the house to be built over the basement, which made no sense to me. I asked if this "flat" roof over basement would be problematic if we used "treated" plywood; and he said that might work out well. Still he thought it would be best if we "dried" off the entire construction, i.e. wall studs and roof over entire house (not just basement) before we attempted to live in the basement. (Well this means an even slower move for us in that the house studs/roofing and any other materials involved in "drying off" the house would be costly and take time to purchase.)

Lastly, he told me he needed me to bring him in a floor plan. During the conversation about this, I got the impression that, when he "saw" the floor plan, he could better help me understand what "type" of materials I would need to do what with. This, of course, may just be wishful thinking on my part as I'm not sure a Building Inspector is required to provide such information. If he doesn't, then that means it will take us even longer as I would need to talk with someone who "could" provide us with that information in order to know what to purchase. Otherwise, I could easily waste money buying the wrong type of materials to do specific parts of the house with.

Thanking you in advance for helping ... anything you think might be advantageous for me to know would be appreciated.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Building inspectors can be of great help or they can be a nightmare, it is best to take his ''suggestions'' and get along peacefully...most that I have dealt with are decent people, they may have a different view of you building a home vs. a builder that he knows. I would fing out what year IRC they are on, they might be on 2006 when the 2012 code is already out....you can look this up and find out all the info you need about codes. You mention the building code, what are their requirements for electric, plumbing, HVAC, and fire? Last permit project I did, I had five different rough inspections at one time by four different inspectors. It sounds like it would be best to get a full building permit at this time by what you write, as long as you are working you can get an extension...however that may mean that after your rough inspection you have six months to finish for your final inspection. I agree that the roof over the basement is not a good idea...you will spend quite a bit for something that has to be removed later.
Take your floor plan to a building supply/lumber yard and they will give you a close idea of what you will need and the cost.


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

It seems to me that you have a good new beginning with this inspector. I doubt he has the vivid recall of 1995 that you do, even if he does remember your neighbor and a few of the details. Foster that relationship (even it was just by phone).

Go ahead with the floor plan. I think floor plans are most significant to the inspector regarding electricity, plumbing, and heating, at least at the start of the project. The rest of the plan can change with very little impact for the inspector, as long as you still comply with the construction details. He will see you are serious about the project and his input, and that you listen to his suggestions.

Regarding living in the basement and the basement ceiling (temporary roof): consider a corrugated metal &#8220;ceiling/floor/roof&#8221; covered with a layer of cement. This could include tubing for hydronic heating (or not) but would be adequately weather proof to endure your long term project. 

That is what I am planning to do this coming summer. Prior to my purchase, the former house on my property burned down. Now, all I have is a basement and a separate garage. Since my purchase I have found live termites on the mtn 3 times. I want to use materials that are neither bug food nor fire fuel. So my current thoughts are with a metal structure. The metal is just the structural part.

The corrugated metal &#8220;ceiling/floor/roof&#8221; will require a different support structure. I do not want to use metal 2x4&#8217;s. While they are easier for a do-it-myself project, they are not so good with insulation. IIRC metal 2x4 walls leak a lot more heat than wood. That is not such a big problem, but I don&#8217;t want to limit my design to conventional material dimensions and poor insulation value. 

I am thinking an I-beam pole barn type structure like what you see in a warehouse. I will need to have that part done by a contractor with the tools and know-how. The cost of erecting just the shell is not bad. The rest I will do.

I must get an engineer&#8217;s approval, or I will be challenged by the building department. Prior to paying an engineer to draw up my plans or approve mine, I am making a model. I went to the Hobby Lobby store and got foam board and balsa wood sticks. The model will be taken with me to the engineer for a good start and less engineer time (cheaper).

Rules or codes will change, however, it may be for the greater good. So I suggest going with a partial permit, rather than a complete permit. My county uses IRC. New IRC this year will require more attention to fresh air than prior code. That is a significant change for anyone, DIY or contractor, because highly insulated homes tend to have very poor air quality. I don&#8217;t know the implications of these changes to me, so I will be reliant on the building department.

Good luck, I will look for your updates.
Gary


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

How big? I don't think you know what you are getting into. Not saying you can't do it.... at all. Get a complete permit but just the part for the basement and second floor that covers it, add the rest later as an addition. Live in the basement until the upper floor is finished. You need a full plan before building, architect drawings will show materials, Building department does not furnish you with material list. He just needs to review the plan to make sure it meets code. How big of a basement do you want? Sounds like a daylight basement is what you want, 3 concrete walls. Upstairs will double that. How much more for addition? Anything left exposed over time weathers, not good if it gets damp and moldy. You can build cheaper if weathered in as you go. You need enough money to put in the basement concrete first year. Get the second floor done and roof on, closed to the weather, second year. Then, since it is dried in and if you have the money you can finish the basement and move in. If it were me I would wait a year, save the money and do all in one push. Sell the mobile and add addition. Do you really need a basement? Cost is higher and it extends building times. Can you do it? Who will do electrical and plumbing? Big project, a lot different than what you have done, lot more money. How much money do you have up front and the time you think it will take you, double that to be ready before you start to keep on schedule....James


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## MushCreek (Jan 7, 2008)

The things he told you should be in writing somewhere. Where I'm building, the same 6 months rule applies, and it's spelled out clearly in their official paperwork. I always believe in having things in writing!

Rules are different in virtually all locations, but you are generally 'grandfathered in' so far as current building codes go. For example, I just pulled my house permit, which locks me in to IRC 2006, as opposed to the latest iteration, which kicks in in January. Some localities are requiring a central fire sprinkler system now! To me, it's a shame that you can't build what you want on your own property, within reason, but the building rules are getting increasingly complicated and expensive. Next year in our location, the specs on doors, windows, and insulation about double what they are now. The house would have to have a 'blower door test' to make sure it is leakproof enough. All of these things are well and good, I guess, but it makes it harder and more expensive for the DIY'er. Many areas already do not allow doing your own electric, plumbing, and HVAC.

Just study very thoroughly all of your local codes and regulations. You will need to become an expert to keep things going smoothly and avoid surprises. An example: I put a bathroom in my barn, and it flunked the plumbing inspection because I did not put an anti-scald valve in the shower. Lowe's was more than willing to sell me a non-compliant shower fixture! I intend to bring it back and demand credit towards a 'legal' one. There are hundreds of such little things buried in the codes; I'm proud that I only missed one so far!


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## RonM (Jan 6, 2008)

Where in Va are you located.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I am so grateful for the information/suggestions/experiences you have all provided.

Yes, Elevenpoint, I do suspect there will be different "types" of inspections going on for the various projects involved in the construction of this house. (We had the Health Department Inspector come over several times to inspect the different parts when we were creating the disposal system.)

Yes, Gobug, I will continue cultivating a "positive" relationship with this Building Inspector. He told me I could get a copy of the building codes; but that it was very large and difficult to understand; so I'm a bit stumped there. (I am not an auditory person. I understand what I read only if I can form a mental "image" of what is being said.) David attached the electricity box to the utility pole, running a 200 amp up to the top for the electrician to connect to the lines that company ran. David also did all the electrical work inside that box and ran a 100 amp from it to the electrical box inside the house. (He did not have to do any of the wiring inside this trailer; but I think if it is done to code, one can do it themselves without hiring a professional electrician. He has already had to re-do what a professional electrician did around the tool shed and barn. I will double check that doing it ourselves will be permitted before we start.) David also did all the outdoor plumbing, running pipes underground to the trailer (from both the well and the septic tank); then up into the trailer to connect to two toilets and the water pressure tank. He did all the water pressure tank work. I remember the Building Inspector coming out and inspecting his work on all this (electrical and plumbing) and did not find any problems with it.

James, the actual size we're considering is quite small, i.e. an "L" shaped basement 30' across the front (entrance/exit ground level) and only 15' up the other way (with exit/entrance "stairs"). It will have a french drain under it with a floor drain strategically located and piping run "outside" it all around draining water away from it. The entire house (part of which is over the basement) is about 30' x 30' (not large at all). All we want is a bedroom each, a large shared bath and a living/kitchen combination area. (I suspect we would spend the majority of our time in the basement.) We don't, of course, "need" a basement. I "want" one so I can go to sleep when weather is threatening. What do you mean "...weathered in as you go..."? Are you talking of using "treated" wood as we go and keeping rain off the blocks as we work? That sort of thing? Upfront money for project? ROFL We will be purchasing materials and protecting them from the weather periodically until we have enough to complete the basement (with a top) prior to even digging it; and this will take a long, long time. (David has run a dozer blade as well as a backhoe; so he will probably be doing the excavating, which will save us a bundle.)

The water line (from the well) would run thru a sleeve in the block wall to a hot water heater in the basement; then along the basement wall and from there go up to the bath and kitchen. The septic tank (and 1000 sq ft drainage field) will be at least 20 ft from any excavation. The only heating we're sure of at this time is having a small wood-burning stove we can also cook on in the basement. Heating of the bedrooms, kitchen/living combination and bath have not really been talked about as yet. We only know we do not want the type of heat we have now, which is kerosene...too costly!

Gobug, you mentioned "...Regarding living in the basement and the basement ceiling (temporary roof): consider a corrugated metal 'ceiling/floor/roof' covered with a layer of cement. This could include tubing for hydronic heating or not but would be adequately weather proof to endure your long term project." I'm not sure what you're saying here. Seems placing cement on would make such a roof/floor "permanent". I'm wondering what roofing rafters/curls would be needed for such a heavy load, especially since it would wind up being the floor of the house. (I do like the idea of having some metal in that roof.)

MushCreek, I do want something about those 6-month extensions in writing; so I'll be sure to look for statements about it when I take in our floor plans. I do suspect there will be tiny nuances for installing windows and doors that we will need to be cautious about. (Thanks for sharing about that "anti-scald valve in the shower".)

Ron, we're in Pitsylvania County.

The first step is doing what I'm doing in here, i.e. getting information/critiquing. Then David and I will design the floor plan and take it in for the Building Inspector to look at. (We will "not" purchase any building permit at that time as I'm hoping we will get information from this inspector that will let us know something about what materials to purchase. I will also speak with as many professionals around here who will talk with me about this project. Only then will we know what materials to purchase. Once we see we can actually get the materials needed and gather enough for the basement, then I will purchase the permit.)

Please know I am so grateful for the help you have all given.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

The areas where I have built require a licensed electrician, plumber, and HVAC contractor, if your area allows you to do that work as long as it is to code then you do not have to factor in the prices the licensed contractor would charge. If you excavate and build block walls for a basement you will spend quite a bit of time and labor on this alone vs. a slab, block wall are not simple or easy when built right. The term ''dried in'' or ''weathered in'' means that you have the structure up and weatherproof; the walls are up, trusses or rafters for the roof, sheeted and the roof on, windows and doors are in. The way to simplify building a 30' x 30' home would be to pour a monolithic (footings and slab in one pour) slab in exposed aggregate concrete, then your floors are already finished and never need any maintenance. From there, you frame up your structure and dry it in and you have time to finish the interior.....you do not have the expense of footings, block walls, basement floor, floor joists and 3/4'' subfloor, and all the flooring you will need for 900 s.f. which equals quite a bit of labor and materials. If the basement is primarily for a storm shelter of some sort, you can build a storm shelter that is attached to the house....plans are online. You can also build smaller and add on later, assuming a 30' x 30' foot structure on a slab you are in the ballpark of 6K for framing materials, trusses, roof sheathing, roof, windows, exterior doors, and Tyvek wrap, add in concrete slab for what it will cost and you have a rough idea.


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

Modaugrnds:

Thanks for posting this thread. I have enjoyed reading the replies and have learned things. 

The "ceiling/floor/roof" would be permanent. After the basement is ready to live in, it would be the "ceiling/roof". When the house portion above the basement was built it would become the "floor" of the main floor, and still the "ceiling" of the basement, but not the "roof" any longer. Just symantics.

The "ceiling/floor/roof" would be heavy and require appropriate structural support. It would not be as DIY as wood or concrete block. 

In my current idea, I am at a similar point as you. I will draw plans and make a model to take to an engineer to convert to formal plans for the county. I have found an elder engineer that lives a mile from my property. He has an established reputation with the county and the bldg dept will immediately grant my permit with his signature. I definitely need his help to specify the details of a steel structure. Although I have found companies on line that would quote a price to build such a structure, I would rather have confidence in the local engineer dude to define exactly what to do rather than someone far away crew.

Gary


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## Bentley (Jul 10, 2008)

DW and I have been in our retirement home for about 1.5 years now. I did work with a builder who was licensed, but the only craft that Louisiana's code requires is the plumber, and that's only for the sewer rough-in. Like someone else said, as long as everything is built to code, the inspector will sign off on it. I did 100% of the electrical work on my home which worked out great. 

Even with a code builder, we had a couple of minor issues to work out. The key is to remain calm, and continue to restate your position. But, never, ever lose your temper. Remember; you have a goal, and one will never reach their goal by losing their cool and/or making the issue personal.

Your dream IS possible, and do-able. It just takes time, and a lot of work.

And even after you have moved in, then there's all that moving, and unpacking, and then start on the landscaping. 

We moved into the new home in Feb, 2010. We poured our driveway three weeks ago.

Good luck.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Gary, when you said "...The 'ceiling/floor/roof' would be heavy and require appropriate structural support. It would not be as DIY as wood or concrete block." What is DIY? Would treated 6x6 work for such structural supports? Would I need treated 2x10s under the portion that is just above our basement?

Bentley, thank you so much for the encouragement. I truly believe we can build ourselves a home and get out of this vulnerable trailer. It will just take awhile to gather the materials; and though David is semi-disabled and I am 70 yrs old, we are determined to get it done. Oh yes, I do know about moving. We moved everything we owned into an old shack that was on the place while we built the barn. The shack fell down about 6 months after the barn was up enough to move the items into it. (Also, I moved both Mother's and my personal household furnitures and goods "alone" into a 24' moving van when we first arrived in this area. Albeit I was in my 50s at that time. Now, however, David is here and he is such a wonderful person and so helpful. I feel quite blessed.) 

The landscaping is already done. All we need do is set the basement/house where we want it and smooth out the immediate terrain surrounding it. 

I am really liking the idea of a "monolithic (footings and slab in one pour) slab in exposed aggregate concrete" as Eleven suggested. It would be real nice to have the floors already finished and never have to do maintenance on them; and not having to put in block footings, floor joists and a 3/4'' subfloor would, indeed, save us quite a bit. I think I remember reading in one of these books about using "J" hooks to aid in structural integrity of the walls and, thus, the roofing. (I am thinking running a pipe around this monolithic slab embedded in some appropriate rock would be wise too for keeping water draining away from the house.) I also believe we would need to insert "sleeves" in strategic places in preparation for plumbing/electrical materials going from the basement up into the house.

Please know everyone, I appreciate so much your willingness to discuss this HUGE project with me.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

DIY .... Do It Yourself


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

motdaugrnds said:


> Gary, when you said "...The 'ceiling/floor/roof' would be heavy and require appropriate structural support. It would not be as DIY as wood or concrete block." What is DIY? Would treated 6x6 work for such structural supports? Would I need treated 2x10s under the portion that is just above our basement?
> 
> Bentley, thank you so much for the encouragement. I truly believe we can build ourselves a home and get out of this vulnerable trailer. It will just take awhile to gather the materials; and though David is semi-disabled and I am 70 yrs old, we are determined to get it done. Oh yes, I do know about moving. We moved everything we owned into an old shack that was on the place while we built the barn. The shack fell down about 6 months after the barn was up enough to move the items into it. (Also, I moved both Mother's and my personal household furnitures and goods "alone" into a 24' moving van when we first arrived in this area. Albeit I was in my 50s at that time. Now, however, David is here and he is such a wonderful person and so helpful. I feel quite blessed.)
> 
> ...


If you pour a monolithic slab you will not have a basement, you rough in your plumbing before you pour the slab. The idea of the slab is to provide an economical option vs. a basement which is a big expense....and when money and time are factors it is a good option. You have to be clear what it is to lay out a block foundation....you are not talking about a simple job. A 900 s.f. slab is not a DIY project either and if you are doing exposed aggregate, you have to know how to screed, finish, and apply the retarder and know when the time is to remove the cement layer on top and expose the aggregate. The 4'' slab itself will take about 12 yards of concrete and the footings may be as much.....the last slab I had poured was six men working hard to get it done and done right. You can run clean gravel and perforated pipe around the base of a foundation wall, it won't hurt....keep in mind that most drainage problems are the result of the grade outside the house. The grade should run from the foundation wall and slope away from the house.


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

more good comments from the members - thanks

Texican was correct - DIY=do it yourself, and Elevenpoint was also correct. A monolithic slab does require a proper crew, plus plumbing et al must be ready before the pour. The "ceiling/roof/floor" would require the same crew and equipment as the monolithic slab.

A steel "ceiling/roof/floor" would require a steel structure for support. This is not DIY, nor are the materials available at the big box hdwe. My reasoning for using such a thing has to do with the fire/bug issues. One other advantage of a steel structure for me is that the whole structure (not the finish work) would be up very quickly. Then I could do all the finish work as time progresses. That would go from the exterior to the inside finish work including the walls, doors, plumbing, electrical, flooring, paint and trim.

I don't know if these numbers are correct, but I think a house is usually about 50% labor + 50%material. Most of this labor cost is in the finish work.

I'm thinking my entire "ceiling/roof/floor" would be done by an experienced crew in a day. I don't know what must be done to the existing foundation to erect the steel structure to hold the "ceiling/roof/floor". That is where the engineer and building department will be utilized.

I have been looking at various steel structures. Houses are small compared to "pole barn" type structures. A steel structure the size of a large house (just the roof, outer walls, large doors, and steel structure) is less than $25K. My goal is to get the entire house built for ~$30K. That is dreaming, but at least I can be the labor and I stretch out the completion date as finances allow.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Eleven, I would have both (basement and monolithic slab). What I'm thinking now is placing the corrugated metal on top of the basement (with the thin layer of cement) and place the monolithic slab as the foundation for the part of the house that is not sitting over the basement. Seems to me, if I calculate it correctly, I can do both and have the slab even with the cement over the corrugated metal. 

Thanks for letting me know the plumbing/wiring needs to be installed "before" pouring such concrete. I can see how digging under such a slab after the pouring would be terrible even if it had a sleeve in it. However, I believe, by the way the floor plans are looking, only the plumbing pipe area to the disposal system would be needed. Everything else (well water and electrical) would be going up through the corrugated rooving (or through the wall of the basement near the top and up into one part of the house for the bath). I will understand this better once we complete the floor design. (I'm designing a floor plan that will make plumbing/electrical/heating easier to create and flowing from the basement up into the bat & kitchen...Oh yes, I am quite adapt at thinking outside the box. I don't even think I know what the "box" is others are using.)

Yes, I do know the slab needs to be at least 4" thick as We put a slab (about 6' x 8' with one end being over 4" thick and the other end being over 2 ft thick) in the corner of our woodshed. (This was an unlevel part where the concrete had to be leveled; and to do this, we had to use plywood wall supports. I also used old pieces of wire fencing and bedsprings found to help in the integrity of this slab. It has held nicely now for over 6 yrs.) 

I will need to google to learn what you mean about "...doing exposed aggregate...how to screed, finish and apply retarder...when to remove cement layer on top and expose the aggregate..." as I did nothing that I think this might be when we created the wood shed slab.

Yes, I found out the hard way that the terrain "around" a structure needed to slope down hill from that structure. Sure glad I learned that as early as I did as it saved us a lot of hard excavating work (hand shoveling) for some of our structures.

Gobug, since the corrugated roofing (with thin layer of cement over it) would require steel supportive structures, I know we could not do that ourselves; so I guess that leaves out the corrugated roofing.  

Will need to do more thinking....


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## Dry Bridge (Jul 7, 2010)

FYI: Building Regulations in Virginia aren't necessarily getting 'worse'.

If you have enough detail to get a 'full' permit, then you should have a good enough plan to start the project. Have you already drawn up designs for the house? IMO you will have a hard time getting a 'full' permit unless you have a set of dwgs. showing the framing and including specifications for plumbing, electrical...etc.

If you haven't started already, I suggests you get some books on plumbing/electrical...the Black and Decker and Toto books are a good start, it may also be advantageous to purchase a copy of the National Electric Code (NEC). If you follow code, and work smartly, you may get a better product in the end, than if you blindly hired a contractor to do this for you.

Where about in Virginia are yall located?

Paul B.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2011)

I spent nearly 30 years dealing with inspectors, inspections, and codes in Danville and Pittsylvania county. A friendly inspector is the best tool there is. If you are going to live in the house, you are allowed to do all the work yourself. BUT, you can have a "friend" who knows electrical or plumbing to come out, give you detailed directions as to anything you do not already know about. ALSO, you are allowed to hire out some work as long as you are calling the shots. I guess you can hire somebody who knows their stuff to be your helper for a day or 2 here and there.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Dry Bridge, I do believe "...Building Regulations in Virginia aren't necessarily getting 'worse'." because I do not believe any Bldg. Dept worth it's salt would deliberately create rules of construction that made things worse. I do think, however, they may be getting "harder" for a do-it-yourselfer to follow. I am still learning about what the actual codes are for plumbing, wiring and heating. I have been reading books about this for quite awhile now and that is one reason I believe David and I can get it done; however, it is terribly difficult to get thru the code books; so I am learning about codes (structural and wiring) from people I talk personally with.

Yes, we pretty much have the design for the house (with basement) drawn up; but I believe it would be foolish for me to go down and get a permit at this time simply because we cannot start the project at this time; and I do not believe the Bldg Dept would grant extensions on such permits for "saving" materials. We have to "gather" the materials for it first and that will take awhile "after" we learn for sure what materials to gather. (Saving dollars for anything needing to be poured will be included in this.)

We are located in Pittsylvania County.

Yes, Zong, I totally agree that a friendly inspector is the best tool there is. This was proven factual when David and I put in the septic tank and disposal system. That Inspector came out often to see that we did each aspect of it correctly. He was such a great help!

I have heard that too, i.e. that the ones going to live in the home are permitted to do "all" the work themselves, though I did not ask the Building Inspector that. (I will confirm this the next time I speak with him.) David has done so much over that some "professional" did and he is so good at figuring out how to get things done, I seriously doubt we will need to hire anyone for plumbing, heating or electrical work.

I am wondering about the "walk-in" entrance into the basement as the slope where it will be is not that steep. I will need to ask the Bldg Inspector if steps would be permitted at that entrance.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Farmerj, You are correct in that "...there is no time limit for acquiring and storing materials for construction,..." That is exactly what we will be doing...just as soon as I'm sure what type and sizes of all to purchase. (I know certain materials will need to be strong, some treated, some wiring of certain gauges, etc.; so this is what I'm learning now as I discuss the floor plans with various people kind enough to talk with me about them.)

I need to be cautious about the lumber because even treated has a tendancy to warp; and I don't think any Bldg Insp would look positively on using warped wood so it would be lost during the storing. (I found even keeping it all covered, the drying process itself seems to affect different boards.) I do appreciate the information about the possibility of our local lumber yards purchasing materials in the off-seasons. Seems like a good way we could save some money. I hadn't considered construction liquidations, but will certainly keep an eye open for them now. Thank you so much.

Once everything is on-site, then I'll get the permit. I'm sure we can accomplish something every 6 months to keep the Bldg Insp happy. 

As for those "modern truss systems", I don't believe David and I could put those up. We would need to hire that done as it would probably require some sort of heavy machinery; so that leaves those out of our plans.


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2011)

Roof trusses are not very heavy, one person with a little ingenuity and a rope can handle them.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Your county has a website with the requirements for a building permit.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Eleven, I'll google "Pittsylvania County Building Permit" to see if I can find it. Thanks.

Zong, I've seen ready-built trusses and they look weak to me.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Unless you have or you are an experienced roof framer, you will want trusses. They are lightweight, engineered, simple to put up and you can have your roof sheeted in no time.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

All the more reason to keep a building "narrow", the shorter the trusses the lighter and stronger (they get "floppy" when not erect) I like 24' or less for 2 people standing them up. Also 4/12 or 5/12 pitch uses less materal and are more roofing friendly. I understand the wanting a basement but....it is the hardest to build and keep dry and most expensive to do yourself. We don't build them a lot here, soil type and as wet as it is. Figure out the least sq. ft needed and then add a crawl space or monolithic floor addition when you have the next phase sorted out. That side would be best out of the direct weather so you only tarpaper until the addition, saving money there too. Good luck on your new home....James


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## VaFarmer (Mar 2, 2011)

motdaug; your opening statement that you looked at the code book and didn't understand it is scary tobe planning on building a house, Virginia Uniform Statewide Building Code (USBC) contains the building regulations that must be complied with when constructing a new building, this is the minum spec. Yes you can continue the permit with 6 mth extensions, and yes apply from complete permit to lock in the rules you need to play by, next yr thay may add the need for hurrican staps on trusses or something, and you'll need to keep up and retro fit if you apply piece meal. mechanicals are seperate permits and could be gotten later but wouldn't recommend it, there are yrly updates to whats acceptable in the electrical and could lead to problems if getting CO (certificate of occupancy) 5 yrs from now. Also if you going to occupy the basement you'll need that area to pass all it's inspections and better to keep consistant with whole house. Sounds like you really need to hit the book fair and get something current published since 2000 range. There many-many engery saving things to do that you won't find in a lot of books, insulated headers, Ca. corners ect-ect. insulate under your basement concret slab, think about using insulated concret forms for basement walls, you can build that and hire crew to pour into, bunches & bunches. You mentioned a 30ftx30ft footprint, rethink this as this will lead to a lot of wasted materials, look at the charts in the code book for max. spans of certain materials, 14ft for 2x10" spruce or yellow pine for example, thats why so many houses are 28ft wide. 14+14=28'. figure your window & dr locations to minimuze drywall drop off, 4' from a corner not 5'. if your tight on money your biggest savings is in properr planning and effeciant use of materials. We built our house in 1987, 4500sqft. friend and helpers did drywall and had 2 small pickup trk loads of drop off, normally house this size would have a overflowing dumpster load, that was about $6,000 in savings in labor & materials right there. Draw up you floor plans 1st, take them in to Lowe's and get a framing material estimate after your eyes are opened up, work your floor plans again. Are you framing in 2x4" or 2x6", old 16"OC or 24"OC studs, by the time you finish this in 5 yrs 2x8 will be the norm but in steel not wood, fiberglass insulation, or dense foam, you got to figure this stuff out before the the first shovel load is even dug. Plan to succeed, not just build a house. You can do it but please don't build junk , your going to hate living in because you didn't plan or we're clueless. Took us 3 yrs to build our house, very economial to live in, comfortable, used many many up graded materials with the labor savings, only screw up was by furnace guys used std formaula to figure H-P & furnace size and it short cycles a lot, will run for 10 minutes gets house warm and dosen't run for an hr, in that time air in ducks gets cold so cold draft when comes on. Right now with 55 during the day and 40's at night heat dosen't come on for several days at a time, the refrigerator and hot tub on the deck are biggest electrical exspense. Also laid out for good solar gain, glass S facing with large overhangs around roof for summer shade. Theres a lot to building a structure, think of it as your lagacey, is it junk or is it usefull.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

I think that would be a good idea to start, pour a slab, get the basic structure up and then add on when you have more money available. If you want to build a basement and add on later you can.....again, a basement that is watertight and properly constructed is no where near a DIY project unless you have extensive experience and the equipment to do it. I subcontract out all of the concrete work on all the building projects that I do, it is a completely different story when a crew that does this every day is doing it.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

VaFarmer, that is exactly part of what I've been needing to hear, i.e. the part about why professionals build in certain dimensions...not to waste materials. Thank you so much. (This is where we wasted a lot of materials when building the barn and sheds...well we actually used the materials for various projects; but with this house, I don't want left-over materials to use.) I can certainly see how the measurements between corners and doors/windows can waste materials if we don't know the dimensions of what we will be using there "before" we frame those in. Yes, We will put together the floor plan, visit Lowe's for some information; then re-do floor plan to save materials. Thank you so much.

We will more than likely be constructing the roofing frame ourselves as we have all the other buildings here. We have used mostly 2x4 or 2x6 on top of 2x10 top plates, depending on what roofing materials we were going to use. (We used Tuflex roofing in one part that required some "curls"..I think that is what the boards between rafters are called.) These were all 16" OC (off center). For a house, especially the roofing part of the basement that is sitting "under" the house, I suspect 2x8s would be wise, though am wondering if they need plates larger than the 2x10s. (This is in a "basement" floor plan now that is 10' wide at one end and 15' wide at the other end, which I can see now needs some adjustment because this roof will be flat.) I have not given much thought as yet to insulating the basement ceiling because it will be under a portion of the house.

Insulation "under" a concrete slab is something I would never have even thought of. Thank you so much for this information. Not sure what you mean by "...insulated concret forms for basement walls...pour into..."?

"...Keep up with changes..."? So one cannot actually "lock in" coding for such construction? If I'm going to need to "keep up with and retro fit", confront problems getting a "Certificate of Occupancy" after so many years , then I don't see how anything is truly locked in. 

Yes, we do want a home well constructed. (We still have people stopping on the state road to look down at the barn we built; and I feel quite good knowing David and I designed and built it ourselves. I even had a hay-farmer deliver bailed hay a few years ago and, as he was helping David get it into the loft, he stopped, looked around at the top of the walls just under the rafters and then made the comment to his helper down on the flat-bed truck, "Now this is how a barn ought to be built!"  ) It would be real nice if people passing our place would show similar interests in our home. 

Eleven, I do so appreciate your inputs. Thank you. I do understand the need for a watertight and properly constructed basement, though I have seen them in this area that were built by professionals and had water standing in them. So I think knowing how to create them well is even more important than hiring a professional and expecting him to do it well. The only concern I have about the basement is the requirements of lifting for these old bones.


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## MushCreek (Jan 7, 2008)

Insulated Concrete Forms (ICF) is a great way to build, but rather expensive. A friend of mine built his own house with ICF, and said it came to about $6 square foot of wall area. In your case, that would be about $6000 for the basement, NOT including the footing or floor slab. If you hired it out, figure at least double that. It's easy to do (think Lego blocks of light-weight foam) but pouring the concrete is not a job for an amateur! Essentially, it's a poured concrete wall, but with the addition of about 5" of foam insulation. We are going ICF for our basement, since the cost is not that much more than a poured concrete foundation, and we will be putting 2" foam under the slab, as well as radiant heating tubing in the slab.

As for materials- you can have them quoted at Lowe's, but you should be able to get better pricing for a whole house from an independent lumber yard. For my barn, the difference was about 15%, and the lumber was better quality. Don't be shy about shopping around! A lumber yard should take back bad wood, within reason. Just don't expect them to take back a warped 2X8 that's been laying in the weather. If the lumber has to sit a while, you should stack it very carefully with thin 'stickers' in between to allow air circulation, on blocks on flat level ground, protected from the elements. Some of the wood will still move- a lot. Lumber in general these days is disappointingly poor quality- not sure what you can do about that. Use the straightest pieces for long framing members, and cut up the warped stuff for short pieces and blocking.

You seem to be guessing about framing sizes for the roof. You can google 'span tables' to find out what would meet code. They take into account span, pitch,and snow load to figure out what you actually need. This is know as 'prescriptive building', and is what most inspectors are familiar with. When you stray from this path, you are often required to provide engineering, which means a licensed engineer has to inspect and stamp your plans- not cheap. If you stay within prescriptive methods, you avoid all of this. Keep in mind that the tables are based on free span, between supports, so in the case of a 30' wide basement, if you deduct the thickness of the walls, and the thickness of the center support beam, the free span is actually 14' 1", based on 8" thick walls and a 6" thick center beam. Span tables are code minimum, so you might want to be a little conservative if you want an extra-strong house. Using pre-made trusses for the roof gets you around all of this so far as the roof is concerned, since the truss plant provides engineering included in the cost of the trusses. A good lumber yard will help you interpret span tables for your floor framing if you ask.

I think trusses are the way to go. They really don't cost all that much, and you get a roof up quick. They are strong enough as long as they are properly installed and tied down. I use hurricane clips to secure the roof regardless of location. Securing the sheathing properly is also key to a strong roof. It is actually part of the structure. Two people can easily handle trusses if you hire a crane for half a day to hoist them up to you. We did one house with a group of friends; 3 on the ground handing them up, and two on the roof putting them in place. None of us had ever hung trusses before, and it took 4 hours. As for strength- you can specify a higher load when you order them. If the snow load in your area is say, 30 lbs per square foot, tell them you want 50 lbs per square foot. Of course, it will cost more. Look at it this way- the trusses will be fine unless a tornado hits, in which case NO wood roof is going to stand up.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

MushCreek, thank you for the additional information. Though I was not familiar with the term "prescriptive building", I am familiar with calculating the "free span between supportive structures", which includes walls and between-wall studds/supports. Yes, we will be more conservative when figuring what is needed in this free span space. (Using pre-made trusses is certainly something we will consider; however, I suspect, even if we used those, we would use more than what a "prescriptive building" chart would tell us to as long as what we use on top fits well simply because we need to take into account the "ice" we get here.)

Lowe's is the only lumber yard I know of in this area. The other one left a few years ago. I will do some searching to see if any new ones showed up.


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## VaFarmer (Mar 2, 2011)

get some books or online for; graphic guide to frame construction Rob Thallon, Building your own House from Foundation to Framing, Robert Roskind. Both have lot of pictures. The framing book is outdated as far as materials but will keep you on track. The insulated wall forms are big Leggo blocks you clip together, fairly labor intense so if paying a contractor cost can get out of hand, for self builder a option worth looking into. For permits get all of them at the start & keep renewing, the rules will not change that way and your CO is based on when you applied. 2 standard ways to build roof is a ridge beam with the rafters leaning against that at the center of the roof line, or trusses, you can build your own trusses, but your savings may be lost if inspector wants engineering varification, you'll need a large level area such as a slab as big as your trusses to set your pattern blocks and assemble your trusses, typically a false econmey to build them yourself. For your basement, exterior drainage around the footers helps a lot to keep basement dry plus other measures, is house on hill side or high ground? Can you get main glass side facing south? OC= on center...


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

motdaugrnds said:


> VaFarmer, that is exactly part of what I've been needing to hear, i.e. the part about why professionals build in certain dimensions...not to waste materials. Thank you so much.


Something else to consider with regards to dimension is that many houses are built in multiples of 8 (or 4) like a 24x32 because those are the dimensions of plywood, panel insulation, drywall, etc. etc. 
Three full sheets of plywood for the width of your house is much easier than three and 2 extra feet...

However, that's only if you're planning to use drywall, plywood, and such. If you AREN'T, you have far more flexibility. 



> Not sure what you mean by "...insulated concret forms for basement walls...pour into..."?


ICFs are things like these little jobbies. 








http://www.foxblocks.com/Products/Fox-Block.aspx

As VaFarmer said, you basically stack them like Legos and then pour your cement into the now-created forms. Except unlike plywood forms, you won't pull these away. They stay in place, insulating your basement. 
If you have the money, go that route! They are fast and straight forward. I've seen several people use them in the last couple of years. 
OTOH, if you're pinching your pennies til they squeal, stacked concrete blocks will be quite a bit cheaper.


To books:
I'll second the suggestion for The Graphic Guide to Frame Construction 
as well as add
Do-It-Yourself Housebuilding: The Complete Handbook by George Nash 
and 
Independent Builder: Designing & Building a House Your Own Way by Sam Clark

The first is the most specific so far as visuals of actual framing. 
However, the latter two have _far_ more information about ideas for design, how different systems will fit together, what types of building options you can use etc, etc (they're also two and three times as many pages. lol)


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

MushCreek said:


> Span tables are code minimum, so you might want to be a little conservative if you want an extra-strong house.


I'm going to disagree. From what I've read over the years, most engineers agree that span tables are actually _quite_ conservative.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

VaFarmer, that information is very helpful. Thank you.

I will search online for those two books. 

Sounds like those "insulated wall forms" are the way for David and I to go. It will take awhile to get it done; but we can probably do those ourselves without too much difficulty.

Yes, I do think getting "all" the permits at the start and keep renewing them would be a smart move; and it is sure nice to know the CO (certificate of occupancy) will be based on the rules in force at that initial time of application...wondering if that is true in Virginia. (I do see you're from Virginia; so I'm guessing it is.)

I doubt we will be using trusses. I think it would be easier for us to place each individual rafter on top of the roofing plates and strategically placed studs to hold up those plates. We are accustomed to putting up roofs that way. (I will talk with the Building Inspector about this to understand his take on it.)

As for the terrain: Our trailer presently sits on the highest Knoll on our acreage. The entire knoll is approximately 150 x 150 and slopes on both sides. On one side we have the drive past the barn, around the back yard and past the orchard down to the buck house, which is in the back part of our homestead. On the other is the well (up toward the front gate) and the disposal system, which is part of this 150 x 150 area. (The entire 6 acres of our homestead actually has 3 knolls and is about a 5% slant from state road to back boundary line at creek.) The house would be facing southeast (parrallel with the state road) with the eastern corner of the basement coming out toward the sloped portion of that side of the knoll. (I know I'm doing a lousy job of explaining this; so I'll see if I can get some pics up that will show it.)










This picture shows the front yard as it is now. I put two pictures together to get this shot while standing on the front deck of our trailer. David is standing near the front hydrant (fenced) and near the septic tank (white pipe coming up). The well, itself is about 100 ft farther up toward the front gate near the drive. The black lines you see are approximately where the 30 x 30 house will be. (It of course would need to stay at least 20 ft from the septic tank.) In walking this area it looks like the basement "entrance" (where the white arrow is) would need to be excavated in a way that would require some sort of retainer wall...not sure about this....sure glad I am discussing this now as there is just so much to consider!

Thank you Erin. We will more than likely be using plywood sheets; so considering their dimensions in the planning phase would be smart. Thanks also for the look at those "Fox-Block" thingies. I will have to go over to that site to see how they are made. It looks like some type of cinderblock divisions between them and, not knowing anything about them as yet, I am thinking a "section" of those would be terribly heavy to work with...at least cinder blocks are "individual" loads. I sure appreciate those links.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

ErinP said:


> Something else to consider with regards to dimension is that many houses are built in multiples of 8 (or 4) like a 24x32 because those are the dimensions of plywood, panel insulation, drywall, etc. etc.
> Three full sheets of plywood for the width of your house is much easier than three and 2 extra feet...
> 
> However, that's only if you're planning to use drywall, plywood, and such. If you AREN'T, you have far more flexibility.
> ...


If your plans call for a 30 x 30 home, there is no need to reduce or increase the size in order to take advantage of the size of sheet goods and there are times you cannot for one reason or another. To take advantage of this for this size you simply use one half of the sheet on one side of the house and the other half on the other side.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Sure. 
But the fact still remains that that IS why so many houses are built with dimensions of multiples of 8 (4). :shrug:



motdaugrnds said:


> It looks like some type of cinderblock divisions between them


Nope. Its just rebar, tying the two sides together. They're actually pretty light.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

This is a combined 2-pics I took today in an attempt to present the topography of the front part of our homestead. The white arrow points to where the septic tank is located. The red arrow points to where the outside faucet is located. The blue arrow points to where the well is located, which is approximately 200 ft from the trailer. I took this picture standing up just inside our front gate, which is about 60 ft from the state road. (I should have asked David to stand down the hillside a ways to give some perspective; but I didn't think of it and it is a little too damp for him to be out anyways.) 










If you stand between that mound of cedar tree limbs (underscored in yellow) and walk in a straight line toward the buck house (overscored in yellow), you will be approximately 6-7 ft lower than the top of that knoll where the autos are parked. [To me this means, if we're going to have a walk-out entrance at that corner of the basement, some grading will need to be done that may (or may not) require some sort of a retainer wall around a patio-type entrance.]


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

ErinP said:


> Sure.
> But the fact still remains that that IS why so many houses are built with dimensions of multiples of 8 (4). :shrug:
> 
> 
> Nope. Its just rebar, tying the two sides together. They're actually pretty light.


The truth is in the real world of building you will find that most structures do not adhere to this principle, the last four building projects that I have done did not. Regardless of the dimensions of what you start with, you will not stay with that when you factor in the interior dimensions, roof pitch, rafter tail length and any other dimension that would go by the so-called 4/8 rule.
Even if the dimensions did fall this way, there are other reasons that you may not start out with a full sheet of sheathing on the exterior from one corner of the house.


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## MushCreek (Jan 7, 2008)

I've tried going in multiples of 2/4/8 feet to save materials, but it doesn't seem to save all that much, especially considering the shell is the 'cheap' part of the house. As Eleven pointed out, it all falls apart on the interior and the roof structure anyway. It's probably a good idea to avoid going slightly over an even number, though, such as 32-1/2', which would be awful from a usage standpoint.

As for span tables- they are tabulated based on deflection allowable, and some folks would find code-minimum to make for a bouncy floor, especially in bigger spans. It won't actually collapse, but there can be a trampoline effect. After living on a concrete slab for the last 30 years (hate it, BTW) I find all suspended floors to be a little bouncy at first.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> but it doesn't seem to save all that much,


LOL
_I'm_ not disagreeing, actually. 
I'm just pointing out that that IS the rationale. 

Personally, our house isn't using plywood or drywall at all, so the 4' recommendation won't make any difference for us, one way or the other. 

So far as springy floors, that's a preference, not a safety issue. 
Generally speaking, span tables are a 360 deflection. Which, is actually the amount of "spring" most people will be expecting when they step on a floor.

If you want a floor with less deflection, yeah, you need to find a span table with a 480 deflection. Or 720, if it trips your trigger. 

However, I was just disagreeing with your statement that code-approved spans aren't _strong_. That's a load-limit issue, afterall, not a deflection issue.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

MushCreek, Why do you hate a concrete slab?

I am wondering if only a portion of what we want can be built initially. By this I mean the full "L" shaped basement (30' x 15') and only half (the 2 bedrooms and the bath, each 10 x 15) on a "full" slab (30' x 30'). If the Building Inspector permits it, couldn't flashing be tacked over that half of an "A" Frame roof to protect the ends of those rafters and the roofing material? Seems maybe some siding could be used that would be removed later on (placing it on the exterior of the other half of the house when it is constructed).

If we use only a wood-burning stove to heat and cook on in the basement, we would not need to worry about heating the bedrooms/bath until after the other half (living/kitchen combination) of the house is built. Thus, only electricity and plumbing for the basement, both bedrooms and bath would need to be dealt with initially. (I am thinking this might help in keeping whatever needs to be stored from ruining before it can actually be used. Trying to store enough for the entire house might cause a loss as it will probably take David and I quite awhile to build the basement, though I believe the upstairs housing would probably go quickly.)

Please know I am so very appreciative of the discussions/experiences shared in this thread. Each time I read what you've all written, I have new thoughts as to what might be done either in a more economical way or a more reliable way (as to construction integrity).


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

If you build a floor with 2x's or I-Joists...and it has spring to it, you made a serious mistake somewhere.


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## MushCreek (Jan 7, 2008)

Concrete slabs are generally cold, and very unforgiving on the feet, legs, and back. For example- professional dancers won't dance on a concrete stage- they add a raised wooden floor. Also, anything breakable that falls on concrete or tile is history. You wouldn't think a wooden floor would have enough give to make a difference, but it does. Also, with a slab much of your plumbing is under the concrete, so if you have a failure, or want to change the layout, break out the concrete saw and jack hammer. Here in FL, virtually 99% of the homes are on slabs. One thing that happens is when you get a sudden warm, humid spell after a cold snap, the concrete slab will actually sweat, like a glass of cold water on a hot day. BTW- a layer of foam under the slab greatly eliminates this.

As for 'spring' in a wooden floor- at 1/360, a 24' span could sag over 3/4" in the middle! They can and do make spans of 24', and even 32' with trusses. A large person walking across that floor will set up noticeable vibrations. My barn loft is built a bit over 1/480, and it is very solid, but if I jump up and down, it still bounces slightly. I know, stop jumping up and down!

One annoying thing about trying to build on 4' centers is that some building products are now under size. I used Advantech floor sheathing in the barn loft, which is a great product, but the net width is only 47-1/2"! Most if not all tongue and groove sheet goods are this way, because they start with a 48" sheet, and then mill the tongue and groove. Once assembled, you lose 1/2". My barn is a FULL 28' wide, meaning the Advantech comes up 3-1/2" short- not practical at all. What I had to do was start with slightly more than 1/2 sheet on one side. The result was wasting 4 sheets of the stuff- about $85. More than the cost, the waste drove me crazy, although I'm using the leftovers for work benches.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

We do have a slight spring on our loft floor (16'x18'); but it is so slight, even when moving around heavy bales of hay, that it is not problematic. The joists holding that tongue and groove are 2x6s and are 16" OC with doubled 2x10s "rough cut" girders 18' long. We created two of these double (two 2 x 10s sandwitched together) girders and ran each down the middle under the loft, placing each on top of 4x4s that were connected to separate sides of 6x6 studs. Had to use a come-along to get them up and used 20p to attach them to the 6x6 studs; also stabilized them even more with a 1-3/4' diameter cedar tree 26' tall and heavy pieces of metal. This has been a great floor for over 10 yrs and has held over 300 square bales stacked up to the rafters. 

I really don't want joists/girders under the house; however, placing a good, thick piece of foam under the slab sounds workable. (Any pros and cons as to the thickness of such a piece of foam?) Also by placing sleeves through the concrete slab, I don't think we would have any problem running whatever we want through them later on.

As for loss, I don't see any way around losing some materials. I noticed years ago the 1x6 boards were not 1x6; and the 4x4s were not 4x4s. About the best we can do is calculate the size in such a way that takes these differences into account. I have little doubt we will have materials left over. I just hope it is something we might be able to use in the garden (or elsewhere on the place). [It wouldn't bother me a bit to have a weatherized place to sit in different parts of our homestead.]


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Looking at your picture....I see your septic, I take it the leach line is down the hill from that. Are you having kitchen or bath in the basement? How will you get that to the septic tank?. Beautiful place, nice views....James


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

No bathroom in basement unless we can get one of those toilets that do not require a septic tank; thus, nothing running from basement up into the disposal system. (Any dishwashing done could possibly run out to one of the drainage pipes surrounding the basement and down into and under lots of soil.)

Thanks for the compliment. It is the first real home I ever had, was created out of love for Mother and her will to stay out of a nursing home; and it brought David in to help. Every single part of finding it, clearing it, moving onto it and developing it came as a result of something unexpected opening doors. It has been terribly hard work; but spiritually uplifting. Now, if only I can design some sort of house that will be approved by the Bldg Dept that David and I can actually build!


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## VaFarmer (Mar 2, 2011)

cross check the Health Dept code for your distance to septic tank & well, 50ft for well, 20 for tank and looks like septic field is (100ft) more so thats OK. Can't have dish water, cloths washer or any other fixture drain into the foundation or any place other than septic. Even though it's gray water there special permits for gray water to go to holding tanks and use to water garden, filter it and use it to refill toilets, stuff like that is avaliable if into a eco friendly system. Have toilets plumbed on seperate lines to septic tanks for sewage. If I didn;t have bathrooms on the 2nd & 3rd floors I'd replumb to keep grey water seperate from sewage at this point to involved a remolding job. Check your distance from the new house to your septic tank and make sure you have 1" of pipe drop for each 4ft of length. If not you'll need to install a tank and pump to get the s--t to run up hill. As far as cost of ISO wall forms, for the insulating value and exterior water proofing to get same finished product with cinder block the lego blocks are cheaper, if your OK with bare cinder block and not worried about thermal efficency use cinder block tobe cheap. For floor joist using 2x10x14 with a main beam to make a building 28ft wide is cheaper than a freespanding laminated beam say 30ft. Just be aware of your deadloads at rms like kitchens & bath (cabinets, appliances, water filled tubs) and live loads like people, china hutch- furniture ect. and figure your building materials on requirements. the more pre planning you do the less headachs you'll have in the long run. Do a real set of blueprints with thickness of walls dr swings, wdw locations, 3" & other plumbing pipes where needed, and then when you build follow the plan all to exact scale.


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## MushCreek (Jan 7, 2008)

My contractor is putting 2" foam under the basement slab in SC, a mild climate. He specializes in ICF, so I trust his judgment. I would think even 1" would serve to break the thermal bridge with the cold soil.


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## yikes (Jan 23, 2011)

Trusses allow you more freedom in your house design. I made my own for a 34' span for the garage. Raised them myself by carrying one leg up, then the other leg, then raising the peak with a long board. There after, tying a rope around the center of the span to stop the next truss from bowing down when trying to raise the peak. It was fun. But you lose the use of the attic space with trusses. I wanted a clear garage (no posts), that's why the trusses. House was done with rafters, which meant a load bearing center wall.
Do every thing you can and then some more to have a dry basement. My wet basement has been and still is a nightmare.
I would save up to be able to complete the structure at one time. Storing materials leads to problems.
Plant your trees as soon as you can but not before you should.


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## MushCreek (Jan 7, 2008)

You can get usable attic space by ordering attic trusses- cost more. though.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

VaFarmer, thank you. When we created the disposal system and had the well dug and set up this trailer to live in, we did consult with the Health Department as well as the Building Department. The house we are looking to build will be a lot more than 50 ft from the well, will be more than 20 ft from the septic tank and even more than that from the 1000 sq ft disposal system.

I was hoping to use "grey" water (not from toilets; but from bath/sinks) running into something that could be used in our garden ... or simply underground where it would leech toward either side of that knoll. I will check with the Bldg Inspector to understand coding about this. (It really wouldn't be problematic to run all this into the septic tank as it has been done all these years because the part of the house we would build would be a lot farther than 1" of pipe drop for each 4' of length from the septic tank.)

As for floor joists, I am thinking we will not be having any. Placing the appropriate barriers "under" concrete and/or even placing such "over" the concrete slab and laying flooring right on top of that seems like it should work fine. (Will be checking with the Bldg. Inspector about this too.) By doing the flooring this way, we would not need to be concerned about deadloads of rooms, except for the portion over the basement.

I am wondering now about placing a "green roof" over the basement and, instead of having this be "under" the house, itself, simply using it as our front yard with the patio entrance and steps up into the house at the rear. (I just saw a little about these green roofs on TV and it got me to thinking.)

Yes, as you can see from this thread, I'm doing a lot of thinking/planning before I actually start purchasing materials and/or permits.

MushCreek, that is what I'm leaning toward now...at least 2" foam padding under any and all concrete slabs.

Yikes, as it looks now, we will have an internal wall carrying the weight of the roofing apex. This of course, could change as we are constantly learning and thinking. And, though we really don't want an attic, I suspect an attic will be an inevitable situation with an A-Frame roof over the bedrooms, bath & living/kitchen areas.


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## VaFarmer (Mar 2, 2011)

Mot; another thing to consider for a foundation would be to use the wood foundation. Use presuure treated wall studs on 24" deep gravel bed, build walls like a house wall, cover with pressure traeted plywood, water proof and you have basement walls, build any time of yr, no concret, cheaper materials. Pour your slab after all the wall are up or even after complete house is framed when budget allows. If you can afford to buy all your materials and store them while you build, your plans and what your discussing don't match you plan of trying to cover the basement, for a single story house 1 or 2 people could have it dried in in a couple of weeks. If materials are going tobe stored more than 4 mths I wouldn't over stock, your waste will be to high.


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## VaFarmer (Mar 2, 2011)

why are you worried about wasteing all the time & materials with covering the basement, just dry in the house, a green roof is heavy you'll need to get an engineer to design a structural support system.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

motdaugrnds said:


> No bathroom in basement unless we can get one of those toilets that do not require a septic tank; thus, nothing running from basement up into the disposal system. (Any dishwashing done could possibly run out to one of the drainage pipes surrounding the basement and down into and under lots of soil.)
> 
> Thanks for the compliment. It is the first real home I ever had, was created out of love for Mother and her will to stay out of a nursing home; and it brought David in to help. Every single part of finding it, clearing it, moving onto it and developing it came as a result of something unexpected opening doors. It has been terribly hard work; but spiritually uplifting. Now, if only I can design some sort of house that will be approved by the Bldg Dept that David and I can actually build!


I could draw the plans for a home in less than one day that the two of you could build; they would also be approved by the county and they would issue you a building permit. I have had quite a few projects that I have taken over where someone got in over their head, I understand that you want a basement but I would not build my own basement even with 25+ years of building experience of homes up to 500K. It does not matter which design you choose to build a basement with they are all difficult...don't think for a second that laying block correctly is an easy job much less all the formwork and requirements for the footing itself. You have made it clear that you do not know the building code, it is not that difficult to learn the basics to build a simple structure...but I would not stretch that into an area that you are trying to learn on the fly. There is a point in building where you understand that there is someone with more knowledge and experience than you have and it is more than worth it to pay for that. You may look at a certain aspect of building and know what someone will charge for it and think that you will do it more economically....not really. If I employ a $12 an hour and a $25 an hour carpenter, It will cost me money for the $12 an hour and I will make money on the $25 an hour carpenter. For the level of experience you and David have, age, disability, etc. I would have a contractor pour a slab and I would frame up a basic structure with trusses and have a roof over my head in a short time...when you start talking about basements, A-Frame type structure, building your own rafters, beams for support, you are getting into another area of code that you do not have the experience for. When you use trusses, they come with a stamped set of plans from an engineer and the inspector does not bat an eye at them as long as they are installed correctly.
It may seem more economical to frame a roof by hand but in the end the trusses are a much better deal, that is why almost every builder uses them.
Everyone has to know their limitations.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Eleven, I do appreciate your concern about our inexperience in using code to build; and yes, we are learning as we go. Also, yes I do understand the "theory" behind keeping a block wall straight and level. The closest we have come to this is our retainer wall; and it is only 5 blocks high in areas...quite different from the height of basement walls. 

If I am understanding you correctly, the house you would design and have us build is one without a basement and with ready-built trusses. I could design that and we would have little problem putting it up; however, that is not what we're wanting.

[We have built every single structure on this place "on the fly" and without prior experience. When we were designing and building our barn, we were given suggestions; and, if we had gone with those suggestions, we would have winded up with a barn like everyone else's barn. By designing it myself, yes it was more difficult to build. However, it brings into the barn every aspect we wanted to, sunshine during cold winter months and a lot of ventilation in the loft. We, also, have the pleasure of knowing people are still stopping on the state road to look at it and have received high praise for its unusual design.]

I have never been one to enjoy what the majority enjoys. I don't just think out of the box. I live out of the box! I want what I want! Simple as that! I want a basement and I don't want to use trusses! Yes, I have no doubt this is my inexperience speaking because of coding neccessary in this building's construction (quite different from the barn where no coding was needed). Still I do believe once I am real clear about coding, the simple little house we want (with basement) can be built. Our limitations are definately not unknown to us and that is one reason it will take quite awhile to figure it all out in a way that we can handle while still adhering to building codes.

I know this must sound harsh to you; but it is not meant to be. I appreciate so much yours and everyone else's suggestions & critiques.

Yes, David says the "green roof" might require some structures we would be better off not dealing with; so it may not be something we will wind up doing. I am still going to do a little more research on it and talk with the Bldg Insp. about it. 

Since we are in the planning stage, most anything is food for thought at this time.


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## KySam (Dec 1, 2009)

motdaugrnds

If I understand correctly you want a basement that is 30X30 with a 15 foot stick out to be shaped like a L.

Have your basement dug and do the footings wall and pour the the slab for the basement. You have to decide where your load bearing walls will be in the house so you know where to layout the loads going to the basement floor.

You can use I-joist or 2X12 southern yellow pine for floor joist. To cover the basement.

This will be your floor for the house. I dont know how much snow you get in a given year so I would go with the 2x12 12 inches on center. You have to remember that a flat roof is weaker than a pitched roof. That is the reason i would do 2X12 12 inches on center.

Check on the price of rubber roofing. After you get your floor completed cover it with the rubber roofing and pull it down over the sides and tack it to the sill plates. That will keep you high and dry. No need for any other type of material to keep you dry.

There are a few things I would suggest but it is easier to draw them out and email them to you. Send me a PM if you would like some other suggestions.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> I have never been one to enjoy what the majority enjoys. I don't just think out of the box. I live out of the box! I want what I want! Simple as that! I want a basement and I don't want to use trusses! Yes, I have no doubt this is my inexperience speaking because of coding neccessary in this building's construction (quite different from the barn where no coding was needed). Still I do believe once I am real clear about coding, the simple little house we want (with basement) can be built. Our limitations are definately not unknown to us and that is one reason it will take quite awhile to figure it all out in a way that we can handle while still adhering to building codes.


You are absolutely correct. There is no reason the house you're dreaming of can't be built. Even by rank amateurs. 

In addition to books I've already recommended, Google [ame="http://www.google.com/search?q=First+Day+Cottage+blog&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a"]"First Day Cottage blog"s[/ame], as well as viewing the [ame="http://www.firstdaycottage.com/houses.html"]brochure website[/ame] for them. It's a very simple, straight forward design that is geared toward owner-builders. The blogs, of course, are created by people who have built this particular house and lived to tell about it. 

Back in the DIY/back to the land movement of the 70s, an architect/builder named Alex Wade published house-building books featuring the type of frames that First Day Cottages use. (You can still find old copies of his books on Amazon for a few pennies)

Then of course, there's more common stick-built frames and there are blogs and info for them all over the web, too. (I just have the First Day style frames handy because that's what _we're_ doing) 
People can, and do, build the type of house you're looking for with very little know-how when they first start. Though keep in mind, the less you know going in, the more expensive your mistakes can be!!

You're starting in just the right place; research.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

KySam, That is not correct. At this time I am planning for the house to be 30x30 but the basement will be "L" shaped 30 ft long (only 10 ft wide) by 30 ft wide (only 15 ft wide).

We get little snow here; but some years get a lot of ice storms. Thanks for the suggestion of 2x12 OC at 12". I hadn't considered that. Also, thanks for the idea of using rubber roofing, though I'm not quite sure if you're talking of tar (thick or thin) or "rolled roofing" or just some type of sheeting that you cut to fit.

ErinP, thanks so much for those urls. I am going to go over and see what they say. Yes, books have been very helpful, too. I do so appreciate your understanding Erin. I do believe David and I can get this simple house built once we learn the options and the codes governing construction.

Everyone in here have been so patient and helpful. Please know my gratitude is ever yours!


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Another fantastic resource (which frankly, I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet) is CountryPlans.com
It's populated almost entirely by people who have built, or are building, their own homes and cabins.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Thanks ErinP.


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## KySam (Dec 1, 2009)

motdaugrnds

The roof I am talking about is rubber and comes in different widths. It is the same rubber a tire inner tube is made of. You can by the length and width you need. 

I believe most common widths are 10 foot or so wide. You will buy it from a material supply place not Lowes or the other lumber stores. I am sure they could order it for you but the price would be very high.

No tar needed. If you cant buy the width you need you glue it together with rubber cement like patching a inner tube to get your width. Put your floor joist and sheeting down for the floor and lay the rubber roofing over it folded down over the sides and attached to the band board of the outside floor and you will be leak free.

The rubber roofing may be pricey but it will be worth it in the long run. After you get the house built you can resale the roofing on craigslist.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Oh I think I'm understanding what you're suggesting KySam. What I hear you saying is to purchase this rubber sheeting for the "basement" roof; so we can live in it while building the house. 

The problem I see with this is that the consruction will be going over the roofing of the basement; thus, there will be no way of getting that rubber sheeting off to resale anywhere. (I am wondering if it might be useful anyway just left on as a type of cushioning for the floor of the house, although there may be something less expensive that might work as well.)


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

My hubby and I have built our 3 houses, mostly all DIY. Framing the house up is not that expensive......it's finishing that costs so much. I like the building inspector's idea of just drying it in (minus windows and doors) and putting the money into a real roof, rather than spending the money trying to waterproof the basement roof/house floor. I designed our last house myself. Since I used trusses, no engineer was required which saved a lot. I simply told the truss company what I wanted, and their software designed the trusses. The only load bearing walls in my house are the outside front and back walls. I would not even attempt to design and build my own trusses.....it's actually cheaper to just let the truss company do it. The morning they were delivered, we set them and had the roof decking and tar paper on all in one day with just a hired boom truck and two extra hired helpers (besides hubby and me).

We had the kind of permit that required that I keep renewing every year but it was no problem. It took 6 years to build it (mostly because of funding), we lived in a single wide mobile home while we built.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

BarbadosSheep, thank you. You're an inspiration to me. 

I have decided "not" to give up the idea of using ready-built trusses. I'm also thinking that putting so much effort into creating a water-proof roof over the basement may be wasted effort/monies since we're building house over it...still not sure of this part because of the location.

Soooo much to consider .... Will take time to mull all this over, walk over the area and making some local calls. Thank you all for helping. I am so grateful for this forum and all you kind people.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Glad I could help. I just look at the cost and labor involved in waterproofing that floor and think about how far you could go with your house for that same cost. In my house, we only built the outside walls before the trusses went on. The partition walls came later on. The trusses over the master bedroom are attic trusses, which give me great storage up there. The rest of the trusses are scissor trusses, which gives me a vaulted ceiling. The sunroom on the back of my house is 47' long and I was even able to use trusses for that, spanning the entire length of that room and giving me a 13' ceiling in the middle. You could frame it and put the sheathing on the outside, then wrap it in tyvec house wrap until you can afford to install windows and siding. I sheathed right over the window openings until I got windows for it. 

Here's a couple pics of the framing


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

BarbadosSheep said:


> My hubby and I have built our 3 houses, mostly all DIY. Framing the house up is not that expensive......it's finishing that costs so much. I like the building inspector's idea of just drying it in (minus windows and doors) and putting the money into a real roof, rather than spending the money trying to waterproof the basement roof/house floor.


This is what I have been saying. Build the basement and dry in the upper area (sheathing and wrap) then finish as time and materials allow, in the dry. You can even heat some days to work all year around in comfort. Window cut outs last, intall windows right before siding. This also gives you a place to store materials in the dry right where needed, as needed. You can start stock piling needed items at discount when you find them. Items you are not sure of quanity can be got (what you need as you need it) less waste. Live in the basement. Another thing is how you will insulate the "attic" or roof. A lot easier and cheaper to use blow in and you can add as much as you want at any time. Trusses make it a lot easier and not expensive at all, also better use of materials (don't need big wide expensive lumber)....James

Sorry started mine, got called away and came back and finished without looking if anything else had been posted. Looks like we are on the same thought process....


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

BarbadosSheep, thanks for posting those pictures. Seeing how others are doing theirs helps me understand better. Nice framing by the way and comfortable looking lay-out.

James, as always you are so helpful. I am now re-thinking the use of "trusses" and that just may be the best route. Also, your idea of storing materials "inside" the house frame is great! 

I do have questions and hope I am not getting on people's nerves.

When you two talk of "Sheathing" and "Wrap", what are you talking about? Some type of plastic? Will this pass code so we can use the bath?

[The idea David and I are discussing is to complete the basement & use a wood stove to cook/heat; but have no running water for use in that basement. The water from the well would be running into the basement to a water pressure tank and to a hot water heater, then go up and out of the basement to the bathroom above the basement. We would have to use the bathroom sink for any dishwashing so all "grey water" can run "down hill" to the septic tank and drain field. I am hoping the Bldg Dept will say we can live in the basement if we do this with the grey water. The basement, itself, will be too low to run any grey water into the septic tank.]

I think we could gather materials that the weather will not harm (for the basement) like blocks, gravel & maybe mortor (on a concrete slab in our woodshed) and make sure we have enough money to have the basement dug and the concrete poured (basement floor as well as slab for "entire" house).


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2011)

Sheathing refers to the OSB , plywood, or whatever you put on the outside of your framing. Wrap is weather resistant plastic that you wrap your house in. It will be called Tyvek. Both are mandatory under the building code.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

Tyvek is a brand name. It was one of the first materials like this and has become kind of an "industry standard" for calling it this.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Since the living space will be on the second floor. I am wondering if your start should be the living space first, one story on crawl space, cheap and easy first step. You can form the footing and stem wall, pour it and build this and live in it temporarily. Small learning steps on a less skilled project. Probably should dig out for the basement so you can put up that one basement wall that adjoins, even getting some help to learn the process if need be. Then finish the basement and build bedrooms above after you learn more about the building process. This would give you a kitchen and bath, sell the mobile for money for the bigger second phase. Just a thought.

I love your enthusiasm but you don't want to get bogged down in a long drawn out project. Do it in steps so you can see your progress soon and that may change your ideas along the way. Just keep asking and getting answers, keep your mind open to all options.

The basement, why I asked about plumbing. Since plumbing will all be on the upper level not in the basement....Why I make the above suggestion. Check with the building department, they usually want it finished to a certain stage before giving you an occupancy permit to move in.

I hope this thread continues in the context of your thoughts and dreams coming to fruition, it is your journey and your dream. I enjoy the process and think others do too and it may give others the knowledge and feeling that they too can do this. We all can learn the process together.

I build all my properties as I have materials, materials shape the building process and plan. I want them to be well built and energy efficient. It is all about quality not quanity but the more I can build the more people that have a nice comfortable place. I can rent it and that builds another....James


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Where is the pressure tank now? Put a temp heater in the "living space" later moving it to the basement. You need to get answers to your questions at the building department as you go along, it will determine your plans. Take your time and do it right, nothing worse than finding out you can't do something like you thought. A moving target gets expensive. Put your money in quality hard items, framing, windows, cabinets, electrical, mechanical, insulation, roofing, etc. Do it right the first time, you can later upgrade the "stuff"....James


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Zong, thank you so much for clarifying those two terms. I am finding people refer to the same things using different words; and your explanation helps a lot. Yours too farmerj. I will check on that brand name "Tyvek" next time I get to town just to see what it looks like.

James, you are truly one of the "gems" in this forum! I have indeed considered starting with the living space (2nd floor as you called it); however, I don't want any "crawl space" under it. I want to set it on a solid concrete slab (with 8" x 16" footings/lips). I decided against it simply because the main reason I want to build is because I feel so vulnerable in this trailer during stormy weather. I know my Heavenly Father has taken care of us all these years; yet I also believe He expects us to do all we can to take care of ourselves. For me, this means the basement is my priority!

OMG you are right on when you mention my getting "bogged down". This is one reason we want to set up this project in doable increments; so we can see its progression, feel good about the little steps of success and have the energy to continue. Oh yes, I will be talking with the Bldg Dept periodically as we will "not" be gathering materials and/or doing any of the work without fully understanding it will be appropriate under the county's building codes.

Thank you for your well wishes. It has been difficult at times not to get off tract from what I want because so many in here have such wonderful experiences/knowledge/information/suggestions they give so freely. I mull all those over in my head and see if they fit with the general goal. This takes awhile for me as understanding does not come easily; however, I am staying on target and I do so appreciate knowing others respect this.

Our pressure tank now is sitting under the trailer (south side) and fully enclosed. The well has a "pitless adapter" and all plumbing is over 2 ft deep as our frost line is 18". Yes, I have started this thread early because I do want to understand what to do before we start such a huge project. (I don't even want to think about windows yet, though I will need to do so prior to framing for them....more an overload at the moment!) The electrical is being considered only because it is similar to the plumbing in that I will need "sleeves" to run it through and/or under whatever block/slab is constructed.

Please know everyone, I am so grateful for your patience and your willingness to share what you believe will be helpful. I have learned from everyone in this thread and my heart is full because of such kindness being shown here.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

When we built our first house, it was a cape cod style with a high pitched roof. We finished one of the upstairs bedrooms and a half-bath. The bedroom was heated that first winter with a kerosene heater and the bath had a electric space heater. There was a bathtub installed downstairs, even though the bathroom was just bare studs. I wish we had a basement to live in instead, but in my area full basements are not done often because of moisture problems. 

What you are getting ready to do is not going to be easy and it will test your marriage at times. but it is also VERY rewarding and is a great experience. When we built our first one, we knew nothing about home construction. we were 22 years old and had lost our mobile home to a fire so even though we had planned on building a home "some day", that day came a lot sooner than we had planned. But we learned as we went and it was a cute little house. 

I am glad this forum is here for you......my first home building project was way before the days of internet. You have a support system that I could only dream about. And yet we managed to get it done.....and two more since then. I wish you all the best with this endeavor! 

I have a feeling the building department may not allow you to live downstairs without a proper bathroom, although there may be a way around this if you use a chemical toilet down there and install bathing facilities upstairs that drain to a septic tank.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

For temp, just plumb from after pressure tank to new constuction. Are you going to live on the concrete floor? If you are be aware that they are unforgiving when you are on your feet a lot. Kitchen, living areas. If you are thinking of putting down sleepers and a wood floor anyway, it is a lot cheaper to build footings and floor. Don't have moisture problems, better insulation, encased water, waste, power, etc. A lot less expensive concrete. If you are having infloor heat, disregard....James


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I understand the wanting a basement. Maybe I misunderstood. I thought part of you home was over the basement and part just 1 story. I thought from a prior post you were building a cellar/storm room, or is this all together, the basement is the cellar/storm room, house above....James


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

BarbadosSheep, I am impressed with what you've accomplished. I have no doubt this "one" home is all I will be involved with.

James, you are correct in believing I want a "cellar/storm" room. That is what I am calling a basement; and part of it will be under the house. Here is a very crude drawing of a floor plan that may make it more clear. We keep thinking and re-thinking this plan as we read and re-read suggestions here and then walk out and look again ... and again ... at the topography of the area.










No we are not considering infloor heating. Yes, we have been considering a concrete floor, having it poured at the same time as the floor to the basement is poured and placing drain holes in it with a french-type drain under it (like for basement) to keep moisture at bay. We are thinking that concrete flooring won't get banged up as badly as a wooden floor as we will be storing building materials on it over a rather lengthy period of time. Then when we are ready to finish off the inside, just laying down a rubber pad or something to cushion some plywood...now don't laugh! I know how off the wall this sounds as the plywood will need to be attached to something...ummmm maybe create some floor joists that run through (and level with) the concrete that the plywood can later be attached to.

Golly! I'm sure glad we're in the "planning" stage!


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

You will be getting into quite a bit of extra expense if you put floor joist and subfloor over a concrete slab; Advantech subfloor is $22-25 a sheet, for 900 s.f you will need about 30 sheets and that will be about $750 for that alone.....plus joists, band board, subfloor adhesive, ring shank nails/screws, and time/labor. If I were doing this based upon your drawing and I wanted a roof over my head I would do the footing for the 5x15 basement area and build those walls, pour the slab for the house, put an LVL (laminated veneer lumber) beam across the basement opening and build the house.....just an idea.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Elevenpoint, you are so kind in your attempts to help me. Please know I am grateful; however, I'm not at all sure I understand a word you just said.

What I heard was 

1. your belief that the floor joists would go "over" the concrete slab. I'm considering placing them "inside" that slab with only enough of the top showing to (much later on) place some insulation and tack down treated plywood.

2. dig the basement but don't build the walls of the entire basement; instead, build the walls for only the 5 x 15 and place "laminated veneer lumber beam" (some type of treated plywood?) across the opening of that part inside the basement. Then pour the concrete slab for the house and build the 30 x 30 house. If this is what you've actually said, how do you propose I keep the basement walls from caving in over the "lengthy" period of time when we get a lot of rain?


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I'm still here, just looking. Wow a lot of expensive basement walls for the sq. footage. I see your dilemma with a roof system. I was envisioning all the basement under the house, but not all the house had basement. Basement 15'x30' and nonbasement 15'x30' in this case. Guess I would need to see more of the plan, ie; stairs to second floor? I am sure you have a good idea in your head, just keep working it out....James


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

motdaugrnds said:


> 1. your belief that the floor joists would go "over" the concrete slab. I'm considering placing them "inside" that slab with only enough of the top showing to (much later on) place some insulation and tack down treated plywood.
> 
> I would just come back lay a vapor barrier over the concrete, floating sleepers, 1 1/2" foil covered rigid insulation between them and the wood subflooring over that. But, as I was saying before, IF this is what you are wanting I would build it all over crawl space, cheaper and a much more insulated floor....James
> 
> 2. dig the basement but don't build the walls of the entire basement; instead, build the walls for only the 5 x 15 and place "laminated veneer lumber beam" (some type of treated plywood?) across the opening of that part inside the basement. Then pour the concrete slab for the house and build the 30 x 30 house. If this is what you've actually said, how do you propose I keep the basement walls from caving in over the "lengthy" period of time when we get a lot of rain?


With proper footings and the 3 walls it would be no problem. You could even pour all your footings and build the rest of the block walls up over time, no problem there. I see no problem using a beam or LVL in that 15' span, but you need to transition the floor level to the concrete floor slab of the house. Your slab would not be over the 5'x15' portion, same system you use for the 10'x? of the rest of the basement....James


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

Be careful about imbedding wood in cement. Wood and cement do not bond well together. I suggest that you consider putting anchor bolts in the wet cement. Level the tops of the anchor bolts. Then, after the cement has cured, attach supports for the floor joists to the anchor bolts. The supports could be 2x4's laying on their side with holes for the anchor bolts to fix them in place. Then the joists could be attached to the supports and the flooring goes on top.

I like your drawing and would like to know which direction is South.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

James, thanks for the suggestions. Laying a vapor barrier over the concrete sounds like a good idea. I'm just not at all familiar with it...well, duh! I'm not familiar with much of anything we've been talking about. I sure am glad you all have enough patience to deal with me. I will need to research to find out what "floating sleepers and 1-1/2 inch foil covered rigid insulation between them" means. I am envisioning this all over the concrete floor slab that Gobug has suggested I embed "anchor bolts" into. (Are those the same as "J hooks"?)

James, if I go the route of a "crawl space", would that be instead of the concrete slab? I am thinking it would be connected to the foundation blocks/concrete that support the weight of the walls. Is this accurate?

Gobug, that is really a good idea. I was going to embed "J hooks" for the walls anyway. I was just hoping to avoid having space under the floor. We get a lot of snakes out here and I have seen some copperheads. I don't want them taking up residence under the house. Of course, I could anchor some utility wire all around to prevent entrance....hmmmmm

Thanks for the compliment. I know what skills I do have do "not" lie in carpentry! Here is a rough design of the "roofing" (both over the house and over the part of the basement that is not under the house). Please remember, I'm still in the planning stage and my expertise of creating blueprints is nill. (Oh the front of our property faces southeast; thus the house would be facing that way too, even though I had the trailer placed at an angle....What can I say? I like to be different!)

This first pic is my attempt to show the roofing of what I'm calling the basement.










This next pic is how I envision the roofing upon completion of the house.


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## gobug (Dec 10, 2003)

When you say the trailer is at an angle to southeast, does the trailer face directly south? If so, why not make your "basement" entry into a sunroom?

J-bolts and anchor bolts are the same. They come in different sizes. I don't think they would work as well imbedded in the mortar between cement blocks to support a wall; however, the wall may not need so much support as the floor. There are thingys which are designed to attach a brick wall to a block wall. It is a sheet metal bracket which goes into the mortar between the blocks and extends out to fit into the mortar between bricks. J bolts are not cheap. 

Another possibility would be tap-con screws. They are made to attach wood to concrete. I have used them to attach wood beams onto a basement wall to support a drywall covered wall. They could be drilled into the block with the rebar and cement. This would be quicker and cheaper than J bolts.

Another thought regarding the basement wall would be surface bonding cement over the cement block. Mortarless block walls joined with surface bonding cement are stronger than the conventional mortared block walls, easier to assemble and a pleasant surface which would look finished without drywall. Coloring can be added to the surface bonding as well.

Gary


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## KySam (Dec 1, 2009)

motdaugrnds

In the one pic you posted it looked like the house was going to be about 7 or 8 foot from the exsisiting driveway.

You will need 2 stakes 1 2X4 8 foot long a roll of masons twine and a 2 foot level if you have one and a tape measure.

I would drive a stake in the ground where the corner of the house is going to be from the driveway. Take a tape and measure 40 foot down the hill put another stake in the ground. That stake will be the far corner of the basement. 

Take the masons twine and tie it to the stake at the driveway. Walk the twine to the other stake. Have someone hold the 2X4 upright and hold the string and raise it until the
string is level. Measure the distance from the ground to the string. 

That will give you an idea of how for you will need to dig down for your basement. It will also help you figure out if you can do a concrete slab floor versus building on a crawl space.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Thank you both for helping me.

Gobug, I really don't want a sunroom. I am a redhead and sun is not that friendly to my skin.

I obviously am not making myself clear. If we are talking about the concrete slab as flooring and how to attach wood joists to it, I do not see any reason to have any type of anchoring bolts for this imbedded in mortar "between cement blocks". There would not be any cement blocks in that floor slab. I also have no intent of attaching a block wall to a brick wall; so I don't know where this idea came from. I cannot find a use for it. On the other hand, the "tap-con screws" might be useful, since you stated they are made to attach wood to concrete. I would not be attaching wood beams to a basement wall and would not have any "block with rebar/cement in it" in the concrete slab; but using them to stabilize wood to the solid 4-6" thick floor slab to then attach wall studs to might be workable.

Gary, if you're talking about the "basement" wall, I see no reason to have any wood attached to those and, yes, mortoring is going to be figured in so as to help seal out moisture between the basement wall and the soil. Would those "mortarless block walls joined with surface bondng cement" be permitted per coding regulations? (That might be something to consider for the "inside" walls of the basement simply because it could be colored and would look nicer upon completion.)

KySam, I sure wish I understood what you have just said. It is obvious you are attempting to help me figure out "where" to place the basement/cellar and where to place the house. What I am hearing you say is to use the masonry twine to figure out the "floor" level of the basement so I can adjust the level of the slab for the house more accurately. Yes, I can see how finding out where the level of the "house" floor slab would be is important to the depth of the basement. Is this what you are saying? (More than likely I would need to use some of the soil taken out of the basement to level the area under both sides of the house so a concrete slab could be laid more evenly/smoothly.)


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

The building department won't let you (nor would you want to, due to settling) pour concrete on "dirt. It has to be engineered fill or rock. So you need to dig the area of your slab out to solid "dirt" (no organic material. You can build that back up with engineered fill. Very expensive. Thus much cheapr to build on footing and stemwall. I think the sunroom thought was for passive solar. You are wanting a secure storm cellar. If you lay out your house dimensions positioned where you want it with stakes and string (batterboards) you can see how much you need to dig out to have a level sight. This also gives you an idea of the relation of floors to topography. See figure 4. http://www.renovation-headquarters.com/batter-boards.html You can use a very small line level hooked right on the string to get your strings set up level http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/t...mpaignId=T9F&gclid=CL6pk_nA66wCFWU0QgodvjJb3w

....James


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Thanks James.
There is just so very much I have learned in here and I appreciate all the help I've received.

I can sure see now that it would behoove us to build on "footings" (instead of a concrete slab), though I'll need to do some research to find out what "stemwall" is. Goodness, does this apply to the basement too? I certainly want a concrete slab in the basement (with a french drain under it).

Yes, David did that line lvl hooked onto a string in the garden area where we were talking about placing a root cellar. That is how we knew where the drain would come out farther down the hill. Doing that with the basement/cellar for the house would not be hard at all and would give us a better idea about what this knoll will permit.

I'll run over and check out those urls.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

No, the basement wall will have a poured footing and then depending on if you use blocks or the foam filled concrete forms go right on top of the footing. A stem wall is the thickness of your walls. 5 1/2" if you use 2'x6's, up to your treated sill plate. Even with a stemwall to level up, you can still pour a concrete floor as seen below....James

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...neTtD4MovYiQLV95iwCA&ved=0CEUQ9QEwBA&dur=1598

http://www.infoforbuilding.com/crawlspacefoundationF-03.gif


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

A lot of good info here....James

http://www.infoforbuilding.com/index.html


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

The code I am familiar with for this area will require a footing that is a min. of 12'' wide and a min. of 6'' thick with a 2'' x 4'' keyway in the center and be 30'' below grade. The wall has to be a minimum of 8'', anchor bolts imbedded a min. of 7'' no more than 6' apart with at least 2 per sill plate regardless of length of the plate....rebar, etc. If you pour a basement footing and slab in a monolithic pour you have many other requirements such as insulation, steel reinforcement, (sorry, no mattress springs!), etc. You still need the footing if you are doing block walls...and other requirements.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Basement wall....James

http://www.infoforbuilding.com/basementfoundation.gif


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Thanks you two. I am making notes of what you've told me; and I will be looking over the diagrams found on those urls.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I have created a pictorial representation of what I envision as our home upon completion (minus front and back porches). The dimentions have changed slightly as has the placement of the basement. Such has been done so as to make segmentation of the structure easier.

The portion outlined in blue is the first segment, the middle portion with the "A" framed roofing is the 2nd segment and the carport would be the 3rd part.

The part of the basement extended under the house is 15' x 10' (exact size of front bedroom) and will have steps coming up into a closet area. The rest of the basement (the bottom part of the "L" shape) is still only 10' wide and extends past that corner of the house. The house, itself (minus the carport and porches) is still 30' x 30'.










Since bad weather has caught us and we still have to complete the processing center and clean up the old shack while the snakes are still asleep, I am having to set this project aside for awhile. The only problem I am still having trouble with is getting a clear understanding of what the coding is for both materials we can use and the manner in which each part of the house & basement needs to be put together so it complies with coding. (I asked the Bldg Inspector about coding and, though, he was very kind, I did get the impression he was expecting me to hire a professional when he said he wasn't going to tell me "how" to build the house. Thus, I probably didn't word my questions to him appropriately and he got the impression I expected him to be the professional contractor. Seems to me there is a fine line between what a professional contractor knows and what a Bldg Insp provides; and I'm not sure where the line is drawn.)

Please know I am very grateful for the help you have all given me.


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## am1too (Dec 30, 2009)

MushCreek said:


> Concrete slabs are generally cold, and very unforgiving on the feet, legs, and back. For example- professional dancers won't dance on a concrete stage- they add a raised wooden floor. Also, anything breakable that falls on concrete or tile is history. You wouldn't think a wooden floor would have enough give to make a difference, but it does. Also, with a slab much of your plumbing is under the concrete, so if you have a failure, or want to change the layout, break out the concrete saw and jack hammer. Here in FL, virtually 99% of the homes are on slabs. One thing that happens is when you get a sudden warm, humid spell after a cold snap, the concrete slab will actually sweat, like a glass of cold water on a hot day. BTW- a layer of foam under the slab greatly eliminates this.
> 
> As for 'spring' in a wooden floor- at *1/360*, a 24' span could sag over 3/4" in the middle! They can and do make spans of 24', and even 32' with trusses. A large person walking across that floor will set up noticeable vibrations. My barn loft is built a bit over *1/480*, and it is very solid, but if I jump up and down, it still bounces slightly. I know, stop jumping up and down!
> 
> One annoying thing about trying to build on 4' centers is that some building products are now under size. I used Advantech floor sheathing in the barn loft, which is a great product, but the net width is only 47-1/2"! Most if not all tongue and groove sheet goods are this way, because they start with a 48" sheet, and then mill the tongue and groove. Once assembled, you lose 1/2". My barn is a FULL 28' wide, meaning the Advantech comes up 3-1/2" short- not practical at all. What I had to do was start with slightly more than 1/2 sheet on one side. The result was wasting 4 sheets of the stuff- about $85. More than the cost, the waste drove me crazy, although I'm using the leftovers for work benches.


I would like you to explain the bolded and underlined for me. Is this the load per sg ft? What size is the joist and span?


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## MushCreek (Jan 7, 2008)

That is the amount of deflection, expressed as a ratio. So in 360 inches, the allowable deflection (sag) would be 1 inch. Most floors are rated in so many lbs. per square foot. Usually, on the main floor, it's 40 lbs. per square foot live load (people, furniture, etc.), and 10 lbs. per square foot dead load (ie, the floor structure itself). 1/360 is usually code-minimum; 1/480 is preferred when using tile to prevent cracking.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> Usually, on the main floor, it's 40 lbs. per square foot live load (people, furniture, etc.), and 10 lbs. per square foot dead load (ie, the floor structure itself). 1/360 is usually code-minimum; 1/480 is preferred when using tile to prevent cracking.


To add to the above: But deflection and load limits are two different things. 

Almost every domestic floor you've ever been on has a deflection of 1/360 (or less in the case of older houses), but they're still strong enough to hold a car... 

Put in a real world context (since most people will never have a 30 foot free span in order to see a full inch of sag  )-- 
a 1/360 deflection means that your floor joists that are spanning 12 feet, can sag as much as 3/8 of an inch in the center of the span. 
On the other hand, a 1/480 deflection means it will only sag about a 1/4 of an inch at the center of the span. 

While tile might, most other finishes will never know the difference. To be sure, most _people_ can't tell. That's why 1/360 is the code. That 1/8" up to 480 isn't usually worth the extra framing cost. To be sure, it has nothing whatsoever to do with safety of the structure.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

motdaugrnds said:


> I have created a pictorial representation of what I envision as our home upon completion (minus front and back porches). The dimentions have changed slightly as has the placement of the basement. Such has been done so as to make segmentation of the structure easier.
> 
> The portion outlined in blue is the first segment, the middle portion with the "A" framed roofing is the 2nd segment and the carport would be the 3rd part.
> 
> ...


I think it would be best if you took this time to read about the building code in your area and what year they are on, you should be able to find a book online or at big box store. Based upon the code and inspections this will be applicable to any stairs; run and rise, width and depth of the stairs, handrails, clearance between the bottom stair and the ceiling above it, etc. You may have to check if you can put the stairs where you are talking about, in addition, the electrical code will specify lighting for stairs and the placement of switches. One other thought is if you have a fire code that sometimes differs from the building code, one or both will more than likely require windows in any bedroom to meet egress requirements. Building codes will specify what materials are to be used, framing materials more than likely will be #2 grade or better....


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