# Garden + Random Metal Poles + Lightning = ?



## JustRandy (May 28, 2013)

I'm thinking of building a clothesline type trellis 10ft over my garden from which to hang strings for my plants to climb. If I built this thing out of metal poles and lightning strikes it, even though I'll use polypropylene string, I'd imagine all my plants would be immediately vaporized. Popcorn anyone? 

I guess my questions are:

Could I use a lightning rod system to protect the plants? Or would the plants still be killed even if the cable grounded most of the juice?

Should I use all wood instead, for fear of lightning? Since trees are still hit, would wood even be much of a protection? Would I still need lightning rods?

What protection do greenhouses have?

With all the metal poles and random bamboo I have sticking up in the air, I've never thought about lightning before until now.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

I think you are worrying about a problem that is unlikely to happen and not worth the time spent worrying about.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

If I were that concerned about a lightrning strike, which I am not, I would drive a ground rod next to one of the metal uprights and make a good connection. 

If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen, and the only other thing you could do is to grow your vegetables in woks......stir fry....

geo


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## JustRandy (May 28, 2013)

Open fields, metal poles... no worries?


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## Whistle Pig (May 13, 2013)

I run all my maters and vining plants on 1/2" EMT conduit and have never had a problem to my knowledge with lightening strikes. I plant out in wide open spaces. I will attach some photos for your reference.

farmer dickie


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## Whistle Pig (May 13, 2013)




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## JustRandy (May 28, 2013)

Well, yes, I see your point. But, if lightning hits one of your poles, it only takes out 5 tomato plants. My plan will link all the lines together, so if lightning strikes, the whole garden gets stir fried.

Anyone ever have or hear of a pole getting struck?


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## o&itw (Dec 19, 2008)

I think that the chance is so small that It shouldn't be worried about. I wouldn't stand out in the middle of your garden during a thunderstorm, though. Of course, I wouldn't stand out in a garden during a thunderstorm anyway.


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## a'ightthen (Mar 17, 2012)

Do you have a lightning rod system on your home? Just curious.

Chill out neighbor ... gardening ain't like all that.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Around here,though, we have acres and acres of grapevines all supported on N0. 9 wire the entire length of the row. Now, that's no place to be at the slightest hint of lightening. But in actuality, I haven't seen very many zapped grape rows.

geo


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## JustRandy (May 28, 2013)

I probably should have. I have 3 giant oak trees over the house. I have no idea what it would cost to have guys put rods all over three 100ft tall trees though. Can't be cheap.

_According to data from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), in the years from 1959-1994, lightning was responsible for move than 3,000 deaths and nearly 10,000 casualties. The actual number of lightning casualties may be higher, because up to 50% may go unreported. Lightning kills more people each year in the United States than hurricanes, volcanoes, tornadoes, and earthquakes combined. _

_In the United States, cloud-to-ground lightning strikes occur approximately 30 million times each year._

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/770642-overview

It could be a reasonable concern. Not for 5 tomato plants, but a whole garden.

So, the consensus is I should not worry about it and go ahead and erect metal poles and ground them to each of my plants?

Something like this, only not a greenhouse:










Or this:










It just seems easier to make everything climb a string. No poles or cages to worry about or get in the way. Just strings.


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## JustRandy (May 28, 2013)

geo in mi said:


> Around here,though, we have acres and acres of grapevines all supported on N0. 9 wire the entire length of the row. Now, that's no place to be at the slightest hint of lightening. But in actuality, I haven't seen very many zapped grape rows.
> 
> geo


All the fencing and garden poles I've done, I've never thought about lightning before. Just when the question came up if I should use metal or wood for this project, suddenly I thought of lightning.


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## Marcia in MT (May 11, 2002)

I don't have an opinion about the lightning question (but no, I wouldn't stand out in anyone's garden during a thunderstorm!), but 30 or 40 years ago Organic Gardening ran a series of articles about "electrogardening." The idea was to plant with metal poles and fencing, so as to attract atmospheric electricity to the plants and somehow, that would enhance their growth.

Hmmm, haven't heard anything about it since!


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## a'ightthen (Mar 17, 2012)

Again, with no disrespect intended, .... if ye live your life ....

I've seen some good questions come from you but often I see quotes and data of others as the basis of your position.

Each year, in response to the metal issue, I set hundreds of 4' cages and then set hundreds of 8' t-posts that I use to Florida Weave above them ...










And no telling what else is grown on poles.

Personally, I'd rather lose a patch than the home .... so that happening might be considered a blessing to me.

When I have a problem, I will research it and try to do better ... but I will not fret over potential problems.

Until then, I'll be over here in my little corner, like so many others here, putting by the fruits of doing.














































Just saying ( per my experience) .... fretting and pondering don't put food on the table.


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

Lightening travels from miles above the earth, at a speed that we can barely calculate, discharging enough energy to power a small city all at once...
It's not really going to be diverted by a thin 10 ft sliver of metal. Especially if there's anything taller within half a mile.

I myself wouldn't worry about it unless you live on a flat plain and have had lightening strikes within half a mile on a 'fairly regular' basis.

But if it does worry you, look into wood. But realize lightning strikes trees more often than t-posts.


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## JustRandy (May 28, 2013)

Marcia in MT said:


> I don't have an opinion about the lightning question (but no, I wouldn't stand out in anyone's garden during a thunderstorm!), but 30 or 40 years ago Organic Gardening ran a series of articles about "electrogardening." The idea was to plant with metal poles and fencing, so as to attract atmospheric electricity to the plants and somehow, that would enhance their growth.
> 
> Hmmm, haven't heard anything about it since!


I think it has to do with attracting cations in the soil. If the plants has a - charge and the cations a + charge, they will attract. Static cling.




a'ightthen said:


> Again, with no disrespect intended, .... if ye live your life ....


Nah, you're cool.



> I've seen some good questions come from you but often I see quotes and data of others as the basis of your position.


So you're going to give me your opinion so I can form a new basis? 



> Each year, in response to the metal issue, I set hundreds of 4' cages and then set hundreds of 8' t-posts that I use to Florida Weave above them


I may sound harsh, but I don't mean to. Just imagine a bouncy guy or one of these kittens :benice: to lighten it up :bowtie:

About the cages... I never want to see another cage in my life... and then some. I hate cages. That's not a quote, but experience 

Last year we had 2 tornadoes come close by. Knocked my cages down and generally made a huge mess of things. Ok, so this year I put bamboo poles in my cages to hold them straight. Yesterday I saw a storm blew my tomato cages on top of my beans! Blew half my corn down. Flattened my onions. It wasn't supposed to rain. 30% chance. Just before, I was out pruning the lower branches off the tomatoes and thinking "Man, these cages suck. There is just no room to work.". So, when the storm blew them over yet again, I was all done with cages. Even if I drove a rod 6ft into the ground and welded the cage to it, I still wouldn't like a cage.

I don't want anything in the way actually. Poles, posts, sticks, bamboo. Trucking them around, storing them, beating them into the ground, pulling them up, etc, etc. It just seems easier all around to have a string dangling from the sky, and, when I'm done for the season, just slide the strings to one end and the whole garden is open for renovation or whatever. When I'm ready to plant again, just slide the strings over to where I need them. I can rotate my crops because strings will hang over every row. This garden is small. Across the street we have the big garden plowed with a tractor, like yours, and strings wouldn't be practical for that. But my little garden, I can play around different than the big farming operation across the street.

The FL weave looks ok, but at $5 each, I'd have $200 in metal T-posts if I had 8ft in between (5 poles per row, 8 rows and still only be 5ft tall (I've never seen 8ft ones)). I'm thinking of spending the $200 on tube steel and erecting a big clothesline, 10ft tall. It just seems so much easier and the wind won't be knocking my plants down.



> When I have a problem, I will research it and try to do better ... but I will not fret over potential problems.


I'm not fretting. I'm on here gathering opinions, researching, so I can figure out how I want to build this thing.



> Until then, I'll be over here in my little corner, like so many others here, putting by the fruits of doing.
> 
> Just saying ( per my experience) .... fretting and pondering don't put food on the table.


I'm not homesteading. Walmart puts food on the table. I'm just here because this is where all the smart people are... like you and Geo and Martin... Stan who helped me extensively with my concrete questions... and many others. Not a day goes by that I don't learn something. This forum is more than pulling out our tomatoes and seeing who has the biggest.

I know I'm eccentric, weird, off in left field or maybe the wrong ballpark, idk. But you should see some of the gardens posted on here... expensive redwood raised beds with cedar picket fence all handsomely crafted around the garden which is surrounded in a perfectly manicured monostand of kentucky bluegrass. There's a bunch of extremes people go to that they didn't have to go to to put food on the table, I suppose, because they have time on their hands and want to. I like engineering stuff. If I can find a reason to break out my welder, autocad, and a calculator, then I'm going to do it. Well,,, that and if I have popcorn and stir fry, I want it to be in the kitchen and not in the garden 

I'll always value your opinion. You're a smart person who gets results. We're just a lil bit different in some things, that's all.


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## JustRandy (May 28, 2013)

Wolfy-hound said:


> Lightening travels from miles above the earth, at a speed that we can barely calculate, discharging enough energy to power a small city all at once...
> It's not really going to be diverted by a thin 10 ft sliver of metal. Especially if there's anything taller within half a mile.
> 
> I myself wouldn't worry about it unless you live on a flat plain and have had lightening strikes within half a mile on a 'fairly regular' basis.
> ...


FL is the lightning strike capital of the US... I'm pretty sure. If not, its 2nd place anyway.

I did a lil research last night and what happens is a bolt will come down from the sky in 150ft "legs". When its 150ft from the ground (or tree or whatever), the ground (or tree or house or flag pole, etc) will send up a bolt to meet it. So, its standard practice to imagine a ball with 150ft radius. If the ball touches anything, like your house, then lightning can hit it.

Metal conducts much better than wood. Actually, I read, lighting will hit a tree and leave the tree midway just to hit your house (because of all the wires inside). If you had no wires in your house, maybe the lightning wouldn't leave the tree. And this is where I'm concerned about using metal for my trellis. If lightning hits a tree nearby, maybe it will decide my trellis is a better path to ground and leave the tree midway to make some popcorn. Effectively, I'm constructing a lightning attractor.

Lightning travels miles through air to find ground. 10ft of polypropylene string might seem an easier path, even if most of the charge is going down a metal pole.

If you had a 1 ohm resistor and a 100k ohm resistor in parallel with ground, won't some current flow through the 100k resistor? I think so.


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## Whistle Pig (May 13, 2013)

If you're going to go the route of a long trellis with strings going down to each plant I envision h20 headlines running in parallel to your main trellis support lines with drip emitters running down in parallel to each poly string directly to your mater plants. That would be cool man!

Farmer Dickie


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## JustRandy (May 28, 2013)

That would be cool, but that's more weight for the strings to support.


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## Whistle Pig (May 13, 2013)

Not if you use some 12.5gauge high tensile fence wire are your trellis main lines. I don't think rope main lines will work for what you're proposing but I might be wrong and it ain't the first time 

Farmer Dickie


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## JustRandy (May 28, 2013)

I could use steel cable and turn buckles, but the problem is the support poles at the end wanting to cave in towards the garden.


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## Whistle Pig (May 13, 2013)

2 earth anchors, one on each end. Farmtek has them for cheap and they work real good. I would sink them in a concrete footer and you're ready to roll. I see trellised maters in your future

Farmer Dickie


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## a'ightthen (Mar 17, 2012)

JustRandy said:


> So you're going to give me your opinion so I can form a new basis?


My opinion is simply that you should get busy and form your own opinions via experience/trials. Then share that which you learn so that others might consider it.

I can see ( and appreciate) that you have a good mind holding up your hat .... but quoting statistics readily available just seems argumentative ( to me) for there is nothing new.

Compost green leaves vs brown and check available N % vs total weight ... then argue with that which ye have seen and witnessed.

If your home is unprotected and Wally World provides the food for your table .... why even ponder lightning taking out a pole bean? Why even plant?

If you are not into homesteading .... why are you on such a site?

You comprehend my thoughts - my opinions are meant to do nothing more than to get you busy.


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## JustRandy (May 28, 2013)

a'ightthen said:


> My opinion is simply that you should get busy and form your own opinions via experience/trials. Then share that which you learn so that others might consider it.


I like to have a decent plan first. Not go half-cocked and then have someone say "I would have done it this way."



> I can see ( and appreciate) that you have a good mind holding up your hat .... but quoting statistics readily available just seems argumentative ( to me) for there is nothing new.


I'm not arguing. Someone else can are the with the stats, but its not me.



> Compost green leaves vs brown and check available N % vs total weight ... then argue with that which ye have seen and witnessed.


Green leaves are better. Who is arguing?



> If your home is unprotected and Wally World provides the food for your table .... why even ponder lightning taking out a pole bean? Why even plant?


Again, its the whole garden. Not a pole bean. Not 5 tomato plants. How many times do I have to explain this?



> If you are not into homesteading .... why are you on such a site?


Didn't I explain this too?

Recommend someplace where there are smart people who like to post and I will leave. I really don't care for this site very much. I like the people, just not the site.



> You comprehend my thoughts - my opinions are meant to do nothing more than to get you busy.


My feet hurt. Probably cause I'm not busy enough to fully wear them off the bone lol


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## JustRandy (May 28, 2013)

Whistle Pig said:


> 2 earth anchors, one on each end. Farmtek has them for cheap and they work real good. I would sink them in a concrete footer and you're ready to roll. I see trellised maters in your future
> 
> Farmer Dickie


See a'ightthen??? By asking first, I get some good tips


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

JustRandy said:


> Green leaves are better. Who is arguing?


You!

Martin


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## JustRandy (May 28, 2013)

Paquebot said:


> You!
> 
> Martin


With whom? It takes two to tango, and you dance SO well :duel:


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

JustRandy said:


> With whom? It takes two to tango, and you dance SO well :duel:


Exactly! But I know all the steps!

Martin


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## JustRandy (May 28, 2013)

Paquebot said:


> Exactly! But I know all the steps!
> 
> Martin


Only when you're drinking :buds:


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## o&itw (Dec 19, 2008)

I have worked with suppressing lightning for radio towers for years. First, because one can't identify all the factors involved in a given place, saying one can predict anything about lightning is facetious. Lightning will go where it wants to go. You may have a 60 foot tree in your yard, and it might strike a fencepost 50' away instead. Theory tells us it should go straight to ground there, but it might decide to travel 200 feet down that fence and jump off at your stock tank.

All that one can say for sure is that the higher and more metallic an object is, the more likely it is to strike there (and not your clothes line post).

Lightning rods are a two edged sword. They were originally developed to drain the ions surrounding the tops of barns and buildings and therefore make sort of an insulating area of air above them to make the positive charge in the sky less attracted to the negative charge of the ground in that area. That works to some extent, but if lightning decides to strike there for whatever reason, anyway, one can't get a thick enough ground cable to the rod to carry the energy that is going to try and travel it. Or, maybe it will leave the barn alone and go for the utility pole next to the house instead.

All one can do is try to attract it away from the most valuable things. If a thunderstorm comes in what the heck are you doing out in your garden anyway? Theoretically the metal pole should help drains some of the static charge before the lightning ever takes place and make it a less likely place to get hit. If the theory always held true, industry and insurance would have found a way to save billions a year. 

If you have a storm, stay in your house. If you out in the open, get to the lowest place without being in water, and stay away form the taller trees in that area. It would be a whole lot better getting sopping wet sitting by some bushes, than standing under some tree trying to stay dry. I would be much more worried about being close to a wire fence around a pasture than your garden. Above all, stay away from any utility poles. Electric utility lines are an antenna for lightning covering miles and miles. Lightning may hit the line several miles away and, for whatever reason, decide to jump to the ground at your meter pole or fuse box. In a structure, stay away from plumbing and electrical items.


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## JustRandy (May 28, 2013)

Would you build a trellis out of metal or wood?


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