# Organic dairy cows and milk no better or worse than conventional



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

As I had long suspected, there is no increase in health in organic dairies. The milk is no different, either. It is about the same. Here is the report:


[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Feedstuffs[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]August 21, 2014[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Cows raised on organic and conventional dairy farms in three regions of the U.S. show no significant differences in health or in the nutritional content of their milk, according to a new study by Oregon State University researchers and their collaborators.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Many organic and conventional dairies in the study also did not meet standards set by three commonly used cattle welfare programs, an announcement from the university said.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]"While there are differences in how cows are treated on organic farms, health outcomes are similar to conventional dairies," said Mike Gamroth, co-author of the study and professor emeritus in Oregon State's College of Agricultural Sciences. "Few dairies in this study performed well in formal criteria used to measure the health and well-being of cows."[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Nearly 300 small dairy farms - 192 organic and 100 conventional - in New York, Oregon and Wisconsin participated in the study, which was funded by a $1 million grant from the U.S. Department of Agriculture's National Institute of Food & Agriculture.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]The five-year project looked at many aspects of dairy cow health, including nutrition, lameness, udder cleanliness and other conditions. Milk samples were screened for bacteria and common diseases, and farmers were asked about their operations, including the use of veterinarians and pain relief when removing horns from cattle.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Full text:[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]http://feedstuffs.com/story-organic-conventional-dairies-similar-cow-health-milk-45-116696[/FONT][FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT][/FONT]


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

Always the same theme with Haypoint. How long have you been working for that organization? Alot easier than farming I guess.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Feel free to throw rocks at me and things you prefer to deny. Of course I had nothing to do with the report. I thought it might be of interest to those pinning their hope of success on the belief that their organic milk or cattle will always bring a premium due to its superiority. Fraid not.
I try to provide factual information. Some prefer to preach to the choir. 
Homesteading to me is providing for one's self and family. Others prefer to focus on the commercial organic industry and place it upon a pedestal of superiority. Fraid not.
If it is proven that cows are no healthier on an organic diet than standard commercial feed, why is that fighting words?


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

I'll agree with the study. Having been both a conventional and an organic dairy operator, I'll take the conventional anytime. Infusing anti biotics to combat mastitis vs oregano oil makes far more sense to me, and saved a lot more quarters as well.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

Am I the only one that thinks the 'organic' label is a meaningless bunch of hogwash?


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

They spent $1 million on this?? I want my money back.

When "organic" got a government definition and became big business, anybody with two brain cells to rub together should have known it wasn't the same thing as what the movement started out to be.


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## idigbeets (Sep 3, 2011)

I manage a organic farm, poultry, cattle, row crops, feed business etc... and I'm dangerously close to purchasing a few hundred acres for myself (finally, no more lease) and I won't be certified at all. Too many costs, restrictions, inspections etc.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

The best tasting milk I ever bought at a store was organic. But it came in an old fashion glass bottle and I could never make up my mind whether it was the bottle or the milk thatmade the difference.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Just curious; does organic mean you can't use Rompun to knock the heifers out while dehorning? :huh:

My boss sends them off to Dreamyland before he does the deed ... seems the most humane way to go about it IMO. 

And ... I wonder how many people who buy organic milk also insist on having antibiotics for THEMSELVES when they get a painful infection? 

I had a cellulitis infection in my breast (sorry if that's TMI!) a couple of years ago and almost died. I was hospitalized for 3 days while receiving IV antibiotics. It was excruciatingly painful. Gave me a whole new appreciation for what cows with mastitis go through!


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

where I want to said:


> The best tasting milk I ever bought at a store was organic. But it came in an old fashion glass bottle and I could never make up my mind whether it was the bottle or the milk thatmade the difference.


I would bet it's the bottle. We buy milk in glass bottles and it is just sooooo good. Since they process and bottle the milk on site, it's fresher. This is the dairy: http://www.shattomilk.com/

However, the best yogurt I have found so far in the store is Kalona, an organic brand.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

People became homesteaders to live a natural simple life. Organic is no longer natural or simple, same as many people, homesteading....James


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Once you get into it, you soon discover the simple life ain't simple. Growing a wide variety of fruits, vegetables and meat requires many tools and skills. Doing it efficiently enough to be able afford it year after year takes another big skill set.
Keeping it natural while the cabbage worms and potato beetles gnaw away at your garden often drives us to compromises.
I'm old and been at this a good long while. To say I have some history is an understatement. But I remember when organic meant many different things to many different folks. There was no clear organic standard. So the groups from out east met with the folks out west and down south and they came up with a single standard everyone could agree with. It became the USDA Organic Standard. However, big business could smell the money and they adjusted and in a small way made inroads into organic fruits and vegetables. No matter what the standards, if there is profit in it, big business will adapt and make money. You do no good pretending that big business built the organic standards. You do no good wishing they allowed something or didn't allow something. I don't blame the small farmer for not wanting to document everything to be organic. But big organic farming isn't the bad guy just because they out-farm you.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Having worked on both conventional and an organic dairy, I wouldn't hesitate to buy conventional milk at the store (and I do). What I would prefer is to be able to choose milk from a small dairy (like, 60 cows) who primarily pasture their animals. Of course, it's hard to make money with a farm like that when you're selling to the conventional market. 

On the organic dairy, we did not allow cows/calves to needlessly suffer. If we couldn't keep them comfy using organic methods, we'd red ear tag them, give them antibiotics (which were kept under lock and key), and ship them to the sale on the next bus out.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Is it legal to ship a cow to a sale with antibiotics in her system in MD? If you hold the cow until the antibiotic has cleared her system, haven't you added antibiotics to the manure pile? Not criticizing, just noting the complexities of such choices.

In my experiences, the management style that is least productive, becomes least profitable and eventually care suffers and so does sanitation. In many situations, grass only reduces production.

I would have enjoyed the study if it would have also included statistics for large and small farms.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Is it legal to ship a cow to a sale with antibiotics in her system in MD? If you hold the cow until the antibiotic has cleared her system, haven't you added antibiotics to the manure pile? Not criticizing, just noting the complexities of such choices.


Yes. Or at least, I've never seen any way of tracking what meds are in the animals' systems at any auction I've ever attended. 

Also, certified organic crop fields can receive conventional manure. AND, certified organic farms can use conventional bedding if they don't have reasonable access to organic bedding. What's the first thing cows do when they get new straw?  Eat it.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

You can ship animals that are treated but you must notify the sales barn so the buyers can be informed.
For organic, you cannot hold a treated animal, it must be shipped and everything documented unless you are playing the outlaw and just sweep it all under the carpet but nobody would ever do that......


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I was under the impression that organic allowed the use of antibiotics for curing serious illnesses, not for preventative purposes. Are you sure that after just one treatment they must be sold? 

EDITED I checked and you are correct, organic dairies must treat if humanely required, but must sell.

In MI, I have witnessed the paradox of withdrawal times. Ok, you are running a dairy and one of your older cows is suddenly losing weight. You notice a fever. You get her off the milkline and start treating her. You try several types of medications. But while the fever subsides, she just isn't getting better. One of the drugs has a 3 week withdrawal time. The only market is low quality beef. In order to be able to sell as a butcher cow, you have to hold her to the withdrawal time. Without medication, the cow worsens. Finally, the day of the sale, you load her into the trucker's van and say goodby. At the Auction, she is unloaded moved around to a pen with another group of like fated cows. She is run through the sale and into another pen. You get a paycheck. Later that night, she gets loaded into a semi, if she's still walking and rests in one of three levels in the cattle semi trailer. It takes 6 hours, if the trucker doesn't stop to sleep, to get to the slaughter facility. As soon as she steps off the trailer, the buyer gets his paycheck. She belongs to the slaughter facility. If she lays down and refuses to get up somewhere between the truck and the kill floor, production stops and she cannot be butchered until she can walk on her own.


Random drug testing is done and the attached RFID number attached to her ear recorded. If there are drugs in her system, you could get a big fine.


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## ErikaMay (Feb 28, 2013)

I've some to see that there is a balance to be achieved: I like to stay small enough I know my animals. I can recognize sickness before it really hits (I have a pig i worry has something, but I don't know want. I'm thinking cancer...). If I need to use antibiotics I will, but I prefer to spot things before they get so bad i need antibiotics, and give animals enough room sickness doesn't spread like wildfire. But, its not big enough to live off of. 

To me its about doing what is best for the animals. My mostly organic/everyone gets a little grass methods have served me well so far. This winter I will have my pigs housed inside simply because its too hard on the land. Pigs didn't mind, though. some of them choose to sleep outside under the stars when the barn door was wide open.

This morning I looked at whole foods website and they proudly stated their pork had "no use of antibiotics -ever!" It made me sad. Shoot, my gilts all were showing they had UTIs so I was about to pick up some antibiotics to clear it up. My "organic" method (also read: cheap/already in my kitchen) of a few days of acidic water did the trick, but i was about to move to conventional methods if it didn't. Imagine long term UTIs not treated! ouch!

having my own micro dairy i'm not inclined to buy ANY milk from the store: all tastes terrible!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Erika, Don't feel bad. You are doing good work. Homesteading is a journey, not a destination. Besides, Whole Foods just had another recall. This time it was almond butter and peanut butter. Trader Joes, too.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

haypoint said:


> I was under the impression that organic allowed the use of antibiotics for curing serious illnesses, not for preventative purposes. Are you sure that after just one treatment they must be sold?
> 
> EDITED I checked and you are correct, organic dairies must treat if humanely required, but must sell.
> 
> ...


I don't quite follow. Are you saying that after (but barely) the allotted withdrawal time that drugs are still detectable? I usually don't work with a vet, but on such cases I imagine it would be nice to have one covering your 6.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Awnry Abe said:


> I don't quite follow. Are you saying that after (but barely) the allotted withdrawal time that drugs are still detectable? I usually don't work with a vet, but on such cases I imagine it would be nice to have one covering your 6.


Sorry, two thoughts seprrated by one line space. I edited it so there are two lines separating these two thoughts. 
What I was trying to convey is that it is a difficult series of choices from the first signs of health troubles all the way to the slaughter facility. Some try to blame the farmer for selling an old cow, the auction for allowing it, the buyer for providing a profit to a company, the slaughter house for processing healthy meat from tired old cows.

THen my next thought is that those that don't seem to know or understand withdrawal times, could get in trouble if a cow they sold ends up in a slaughter house prior to safe withdrawal times. This is a huge no no.
If you follow the withdrawal time for the drug you use, you should be fine.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

Got it. That idea had me in a pickle because I'm certain I would haul her off right at the prescribed time. Having dairy cows and goats, I am keenly aware of withdrawal times.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

On a side note, in doing some research for penicillan withdrawal times for hogs, I learned different countries have different withdrawal times. Apparently this is not an exact science by any means. Personally, I use them when needed, as I belive was the intended purpose. It is a rarity but when needed, a life saver many times. 

I do think there's much to he said for the definition of organic. I know of two organic dairys. One, the owners are smart and caring. Bottom line is important but the journey is, too. The other one, the bottom line is the end. Actually, I am not sure he is still organic. 
I know of a gal with beefers that cannot get organic vertification b/c of such"bad" practices as using Gatoraide for scouring calves. I guess I don't put much into studies, who paid for it, what criteria for each side, size of dairy, experience of managers, on and on the questions.....my practical, limited maybe, experience shows me too many variables.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

because my weird little brain thinks on the other side, my first thought was "well, if the health of the organic cows was the same as the health of the conventional cows, are all the antibiotics and other things really necessary?" I just think, garbage in, garbage out....but it is tough and expensive and aggravating at least for organic chickens, veggies and bees!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

farmgirl6 said:


> because my weird little brain thinks on the other side, my first thought was "well, if the health of the organic cows was the same as the health of the conventional cows, are all the antibiotics and other things really necessary?" I just think, garbage in, garbage out....but it is tough and expensive and aggravating at least for organic chickens, veggies and bees!


I think to come to any sort of personal conclusion, you need to understand that conventional dairies don't use "all those antibiotics". They are used, but not as common as some would have you believe. Also, remember that an organic dairy culls out their sick and cured cows. It would ber wrong to believe that organic dairies are somehow healthier. Health is generally the same for both. One gets treated, cured, drugs leave the cow and they are milked. The other gewts treated, cured, drugs leave the cow and sold.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

Rumincin (sp?) is classed as an antibiotic and is fed regularly on many dairy farms, you know the stuff in feed that will kill a horse? Coccidiostats are a given for any calves on milk replacer. In fact, a short time ago was talking to a local dairy farmer, a big dairy farmer, his comment was that very few calves make it to heifer status w/o antibiotics. Just his experience, mileage may vary. So, yes, drugs are used regularly.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tab said:


> Rumincin (sp?) is classed as an antibiotic and is fed regularly on many dairy farms, you know the stuff in feed that will kill a horse? Coccidiostats are a given for any calves on milk replacer. In fact, a short time ago was talking to a local dairy farmer, a big dairy farmer, his comment was that very few calves make it to heifer status w/o antibiotics. Just his experience, mileage may vary. So, yes, drugs are used regularly.


Just to be clear, it isn't an antibiotic. It is used to treat coccidiosis in calves that have coccidiosis. If you are managing your farm with an ongoing coccidiosis problem, then drugs would be the norm. But such dairies are, thankfully, rare.:cow:


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

haypoint said:


> Just to be clear, it isn't an antibiotic. It is used to treat coccidiosis in calves that have coccidiosis. If you are managing your farm with an ongoing coccidiosis problem, then drugs would be the norm. But such dairies are, thankfully, rare.:cow:


I think there is some difference of opinion as to whether rumensin is an antibiotic or not. Most scientists seem to think it is as it is derived from bacteria sources.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

haypoint said:


> Just to be clear, it isn't an antibiotic. It is used to treat coccidiosis in calves that have coccidiosis. If you are managing your farm with an ongoing coccidiosis problem, then drugs would be the norm. But such dairies are, thankfully, rare.:cow:


 It is an antibiotic, used to change the bacterial population in the rumen to what is needed to handle the high grain diets that are fed in dairy and feedlots. Which diets produce acidosis and rumen ulceration and liver abscesses, etc. Acidosis also contributes to lameness.

https://www.extension.org/pages/11330/use-of-rumensin-in-dairy-diets#.VAVGVCx0zIU



> RumensinÂ® is an ionophore, which can be classified as an antibiotic, that is produced naturally by the bacteria strain (_Strep cinnamonensis_) and is typically fed as the sodium salt. RumensinÂ® functions by creating a shift in ion transfer across the cellâs membrane. In order to maintain cell ion equilibrium, the affected bacteria must use a considerable amount of energy to correct the ion imbalance thereby reducing bacteria growth. Gram negative bacteria (i.e. starch fermenting bacteria) are more resistant to the action of RumensinÂ® than the gram positive bacteria (i.e. fiber fermenting bacteria).
> 
> RumensinÂ® selectively inhibits gram positive bacteria thereby shifting the rumen population to produce a different volatile fatty acid profile. RumensinÂ® is known to inhibit the lactic acid producing strains of bacteria, such as _Streptococcus bovis_, while at same time to not inhibit the major strains of lactic acid utilizing bacteria in the rumen. In beef cattle, RumensinÂ® also reduced variation in feed intake by causing cattle to eat smaller and more frequent meals. Both responses could reduce the risk of sub acute rumen acidosis (SARA) in dairy cows.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

Here is my take on this.

The question is how do you measure nutrition.

I suppose if you have a diet of twinkies, and take vitamin/mineral/protein/fiber pills, that is a complete and healthy diet, right? I mean, if a university studied such a diet, that is what they would conclude, because they would measure whether you are getting all the vitamins, minerals, protein and fiber that you need.

Now suppose that you were to eat twinkies made from organic ingredients, and took organic vitamin/mineral/protein/fiber pills. Would that be any better? Probably not. I guess you could eat sugar from organic sugar beets, but it is still sugar.

I happen to believe there are micronutrients in a diet full of vegetables, etc, that you won't get in a pill.

Seems there would also be more of such nutrients in a cow actually eating grass, as opposed to a diet of whatever cheapest ingredients the dairies (organic or otherwise) can find.

In addition, sounds like most organic dairies are operated like conventional ones. I wonder how much grazing is required? Two minutes a day?



> To become USDA-certified, organic dairy farms must allow cows access to grazing, and the grain cows consume must be grown on land free of pesticides and fertilizers. Organic farmers are not allowed the use of antibiotics, hormones or synthetic reproductive drugs.
> "Nearly seven in 10 organic farms previously operated conventional herds, which explains the lack of differences between them," Gamroth said. "Many organic farmers operate in a similar fashion to when they raised conventional herds, from milking procedures, to using the same facilities, to caring for sick cattle."


Bottom line is if you want more nutrition, you need to know your food source. I knew guys selling high priced "natural" milk and saw a pickup full of old donuts and pastries they were feeding to the cows. 

Garbage in, garbage out.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

Thank you DJ for posting that. Rumencin is classed as antibiotic. Totally different drug than a coccidiostat. My horse, at 1000# cannot eat even a small amount of cow grain with rumencin, it would kill them. 
A coccidiostat is NOT an antibiotic, that is why I differentiated in my post above. On the label of the milk replacer it warns against feeding the medicated type to any other animal.


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## kabic (May 12, 2009)

For every study that says something, there seems to be a second study that says the opposite.

http://csanr.wsu.edu/program-areas/...position-a-united-states-wide-18-month-study/

I personally buy the normal stuff.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

kabic said:


> For every study that says something, there seems to be a second study that says the opposite.
> 
> http://csanr.wsu.edu/program-areas/...position-a-united-states-wide-18-month-study/
> 
> I personally buy the normal stuff.


Interesting. Thank you. I now know what this advocacy organization PLOS One is. 


"All submissions go through an internal and external pre-publication peer review, but are *not excluded* on the basis of lack of perceived importance or *adherence to a scientific field*. The _PLOS ONE_ online platform employs a "*publish first, judge later*" methodology, with post-publication user discussion and rating features."
I guess we are in the early stages of judge later.ound:

When I click on the full article, I get Capital Press, but no author to the article and the WSU researcher is also un-named. Strange. Further into the story, the Lead Author, Charles Benbrook, is mentioned. Just for your information, he is also Chief Scientist for The Organic Center.:bandwagon:
Most of the organic milk came from cows managed by farmer-owners of the Cooperative Regions of Organic Producer Pools, the same folks that funded the "publish first, judge later" so called study.:yawn:


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## kabic (May 12, 2009)

That's interesting, I assumed since it was a .edu website the study was "legit".

I guess I just proved the old saying about assuming stuff...

Edit: actually where did your quoted text come from (Wikipedia it looks)? I'm reading http://www.plosone.org/static/information and may be interrupting things differently than you.

"Often a journal's decision not to publish a paper reflects an editor's opinion about what is likely to have substantial impact in a given field. These subjective judgments can delay the publication of work that later proves to be of major significance. _PLOS ONE_ will rigorously peer-review your submissions and publish all papers that are judged to be technically sound. Judgments about the importance of any particular paper are then made after publication by the readership, who are the most qualified to determine what is of interest to them."

So what I'm reading seems to be they let the reader decide what is study is "important" versus an editor. 

"_PLOS ONE_ features reports of original research from all disciplines within science and medicine. By not excluding papers on the basis of subject area, _PLOS ONE_ facilitates the discovery of the connections between papers whether within or between disciplines. "

So when Wikipedia says "adherence to a scientific field" I think that means they don't specialize in one scientific field...i.e the statement "adherence to any scientific field" would be a much different statement.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

tab said:


> Thank you DJ for posting that. Rumencin is classed as antibiotic. Totally different drug than a coccidiostat. My horse, at 1000# cannot eat even a small amount of cow grain with rumencin, it would kill them.
> A coccidiostat is NOT an antibiotic, that is why I differentiated in my post above. On the label of the milk replacer it warns against feeding the medicated type to any other animal.


Your horse also would not be able to eat lasalocid or decoquinate either. I'm not sure what your point is about the horse not being able to eat Rumensin (monensin)? 

Rumensin may technically be classified as an ionophore, but it is an anticoccidial. That's the intended purpose. It may be classed as an "antibiotic", but it is not used to treat diseases like penicillin or the more typical antibiotics.


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## kabic (May 12, 2009)

I re-read the article Haypoint linked to, I saw this section

"Milk from organic and non-organic herds also showed few nutritional differences, the researchers found. Organic milk can occasionally contain more omega-3 fatty acids, which may improve heart health. However, those increases come from seasonal grazing and are not present when cattle are fed stored forage, according to Gamroth."

This is the subject of the article I linked to above. So maybe the studies don't disagree as much as I thought.


"Other project collaborators include Pamela Ruegg of the University of Wisconsin-Madison, Linda Tikofsky and Ynte Schukken of Cornell University and Charles Benbrook of the Organic Centre in Oregon."

So it seems Charles Benbrook contributed to both studies


As I stated above I buy "regular" dairy ...just trying to point out there seems to be a study that backs up a person position on most topics. Which ones to believe are left up to the individual.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

MDKatie said:


> Your horse also would not be able to eat lasalocid or decoquinate either. I'm not sure what your point is about the horse not being able to eat Rumensin (monensin)?
> 
> Rumensin may technically be classified as an ionophore, but it is an anticoccidial. That's the intended purpose. It may be classed as an "antibiotic", but it is not used to treat diseases like penicillin or the more typical antibiotics.


Since Rumensin has different actions, its "intended purpose" depends on what is eating it. Coccidiosis is primarily a problem in young cattle, before they develop immunity, so Rumensin is beneficial as anticoccidial in feedlot calves, and dairy calves and heifers.

In mature dairy cows, Rumensin's purpose is to improve feed efficiency, and reduce rumen acidosis which results from pushing high concentrate/grain diets. As I posted, Rumensin accomplishes all this by inhibiting certain classes of bacteria, just as we do when treating for disease with other antibiotics.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Milking cows are not given Rumensin to enhance appetite or increase feed efficiently.
While this side discussion about Coccidiosis is interesting, let's not lose focus of the fact that drugs in milk is a rare event. For years we have heard the organic milk advocates tell about the extra nutrition in organic milk or how much better organic cows are treated. We now have a study and report that says there isn't any difference.

IMHO, when there is a study on milk nutrition that tests raw milk and pasteurized, we will be able to put to bed the myth that pasteurization kills valuable nutrients. But that's another topic.


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## janij (Sep 20, 2010)

I found it a very interesting article. I will say the one thing I left with was I am VERY grateful to have my own milk cows. Nutrition aside, at least I know what is going in them and how they are treated. It may be no better for us than the milk at the store but I sure love my cows and the butter and cheese I can make from the milk they give me. As well as the beef from the calves they have and the pork from the pigs I feed the extra milk to.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Here is yet another study:

OSU: Organic v. conventional - no difference in cow milk, health
[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Natural Resource Report[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]September 8, 2014[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Cows raised on organic and conventional dairy farms in three regions of the United States show no significant differences in health or in the nutritional content of their milk, according to a new study by Oregon State University researchers and their collaborators.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Many organic and conventional dairies in the study did not meet standards set by three commonly-used cattle welfare programs.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]"While there are differences in how cows are treated on organic farms, health outcomes are similar to conventional dairies," said Mike Gamroth, co-author of the study and professor emeritus in OSU's College of Agricultural Sciences. "Few dairies in this study performed well in formal criteria used to measure the health and well-being of cows."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Nearly 300 small dairy farms-192 organic and 100 conventional-in New York, Oregon and Wisconsin participated in the study, which was funded by a $1 million grant from the National Institute of Food and Agriculture in the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA).[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Full text:[/FONT][/FONT]
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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

What are the three commonly-used welfare standards. I wonder if I would meet them?
.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

There is a list of criteria for humane treatment in slaughter facilities. Temple Grandin is part of it. It includes things like not hitting a cow with a swinging gate, cattle not "mooing" a certain number of times and the bolt gun not misfiring. Not sure what it is for a dairy.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

haypoint said:


> There is a list of criteria for humane treatment in slaughter facilities. Temple Grandin is part of it. It includes things like not hitting a cow with a swinging gate, cattle not "mooing" a certain number of times and the bolt gun not misfiring. Not sure what it is for a dairy.


I would think that their measuring stick for welfare--whatever it is--is not the same as for slaughter. If it is, then my girls should be all smiles because the sun always rises for them the next day.


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## Vickivail98 (Sep 26, 2014)

I wish these reports would specify what kinds of organic farms they are studying. We drink raw milk from grassfed, no grain, organic cows with A2 milk. Even after I pasteurize it (for certain cheeses) it tastes so much better than anything from the big ag farms. It's a different color and texture as well. I would love to see a study on the differences. 


Mommy in Michigan


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

It may Taste better but it is not better in other ways as any conventional methods. Just what your taste buds say. that is all the difference. It is not healthier, it is does not have better things for you, it is just the same only it may taste better to some, that is all.


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## billinwv (Sep 27, 2013)

arabian knight said:


> It may Taste better but it is not better in other ways as any conventional methods. Just what your taste buds say. that is all the difference. It is not healthier, it is does not have better things for you, it is just the same only it may taste better to some, that is all.


The milk Vicki is using is from cows that have not been given synthetic hormones and are not eating pesticide and glyphosate laden grain. Milk from cows grazing in the sun as opposed to constantly housed cows is higher in vitamins and minerals. How is it the same? How could milk from a cow eating fresh pasture not be better for you than from a cow eating gmo grain that is classified by the fda as an insecticide(corn)?


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

I suppose cuz none of those scary things you mentioned really matter as referenced in the OP.


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## billinwv (Sep 27, 2013)

Mamavation with Kandel Khaga Raj
Can see on Facebook and You Tube. IF you believe nothing else, the statistical data are correct. If for nothing more than to cause you to have questions, it is worth 18 minutes of your time. 

&#8234;#&#8206;labelGMOs&#8236; &#8234;#&#8206;organic&#8236; &#8234;#&#8206;righttoknow&#8236; &#8234;#&#8206;stopdarkact&#8236; &#8234;#&#8206;getthefacts


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh goodness gracious......


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## billinwv (Sep 27, 2013)

Husband, Father, Farmer, Livestock Nutritionist 

GMO grower?


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Keep it nice, friends. 
Strong opinions are to be shared kindly here.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> On the organic dairy, we did not allow cows/calves to needlessly suffer. If we couldn't keep them comfy using organic methods, we'd red ear tag them, give them antibiotics (which were kept under lock and key), and ship them to the sale on the next bus out.


That makes me sad. 

I'm thinking of a cow in the herd I milk -- #823, a cow I call Dawna -- who had a really persistent case of mastitis 2 or 3 lactations ago. For awhile it looked like we might have to cull her if we couldn't get her cleared up, but we switched to a different antibiotic and it worked! She has never had mastitis since. Real good milker, always breeds back on time. On an organic farm, she would have been hamburger years ago.


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## idigbeets (Sep 3, 2011)

Which is why I wouldn't be certified organic... garlic oil and probiotics can only get ya so far...


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

billinwv said:


> Husband, Father, Farmer, Livestock Nutritionist
> 
> GMO grower?


We use many tools and technologies on our farm.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

idigbeets said:


> Which is why I wouldn't be certified organic... garlic oil and probiotics can only get ya so far...


I have a hard time an organic farmer would cull a top producer without at least trying an OTC remedy like Today or even an infusion of OxyTet mixed with sterile water.

Providing that you withheld her milk according to the label, who would ever know? :whistlin:


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

willow_girl said:


> I have a hard time an organic farmer would cull a top producer without at least trying an OTC remedy like Today or even an infusion of OxyTet mixed with sterile water.
> 
> Providing that you withheld her milk according to the label, who would ever know? :whistlin:


 Around here the folks at the feedstore are the biggest gossips around.
It would take a special trip out of the county to buy the OTC meds. LOL


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## billinwv (Sep 27, 2013)

I'm not an organic farmer nor a hardcore promoter of it. I am, however, against raising livestock in situations that require constant antibiotic consumption to keep them healthy or promote growth. Good husbandry can go a long way in making antibiotic use minimal. Our excessive use of pesticides and herbicides is a "whole nother bag o worms" for me though. Our local coop measures the sale of both in the millions of pounds. Alfalfa crops here are sprayed 3-4 times per year. A fellow goat friend bought and converted corn fields into pasture, she had no earthworms for 5 years in that ground. This is a heavy corn and soybean production area. I did not see one honey bee on my property this past year. I always leave milkweed for the Monarchs, did not see one.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

willow, out of all of the organic growers (animals, crops, veggies), NONE of them would ever consider cheating or being dishonest. 

And I can't remember any cows that had mastitis that didn't respond to approved organic treatments. The only animals I ever saw shipped were calves and bulls, though the bulls were shipped because they were getting 'tudes or their usefulness was over.


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## DisasterCupcake (Jan 3, 2015)

I've worked on a pastured, organic dairy farm for about 8 years now. I also went to pre-vet school and did dairy internships back when I still thought I wanted to bet a vet. 

At least in my limited perspective, that pastured organic dairy had so much fewer health problems, I could not believe that anyone would WANT to do conventional dairy. Not only do conventional dairymen keep their herds in barns, the cows may never see the light of day or set a hoof off of concrete their entire lives. 

In ONE day, we did 6 DA operations, on 7 different farms. The 7th farm had a cow that was dying due to calving complications. The calf died, and the cow died later. 

Anyways. I couldn't stand to look at thousands of cows piled together in a barn anymore. I quit that idea pretty quick after the internships, and went into human nutrition instead. Now I try to persuade people to eat better, treat their animals better, and treat the world better.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I used to buy fresh milk from a neighbor five miles down the road. He was the first in the three counties to go organic. The other farmers laughed at him. He laughs all the way to the bank. The dairy (bottler) pays more for his organic milk. They have to be on pasture a certain number of hours per day, can only have a limited amount of grain/soy, and it all has to be organic. His place is large enough to grow his own feed. His cows canât be bred right after calving, they have to wait a month. This is to rest the cow. He keeps his cows well into their teens. 

The most âmodernâ dairy farm only keeps their cows for three calves, then brings in new ones. He is constantly starting with new ones, which means having to wait for them to grow up. He also used a growth hormone to increase the amount of milk. Now that they canât use the growth hormone any more, I wonder how heâs doing.

Iâve seen how confined animals live. Organic/pasture is much more humane.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

I've been in and around dairy farms for over 40 years and I never hooked a milker up to as many partial udders as I did when I was milking organic cows.
The organic treatments were a joke, oregano and olive oil. Less than worthless.
I would never go back to that and I would never subject my animals to such barbaric treatment.
Modern dairy cattle do not "require a constant supply of antibiotics" to survive. If they did, the farmer would never be able to ship milk.



> willow, out of all of the organic growers (animals, crops, veggies), NONE of them would ever consider cheating or being dishonest.


 Out of every organic dairy farmer I met, not one of them would have a problem being dishonest.



> His cows can&#8217;t be bred right after calving, they have to wait a month


 Most nonorganic dairies wait 2 months, even better than your organic month.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> His cows can&#8217;t be bred right after calving, they have to wait a month. This is to rest the cow.


Yeah, that kinda made me go  too.

The industry standard VWP (voluntary waiting period) is generally 90 days, which means the cow ideally will calve on a 1-year cycle. (Nine-month pregnancy + 3-month VWP = 12 months.) 

Of course each farmer decides for himself, although I personally have found it doesn't make sense to jump the gun as cows usually won't settle if bred back too early. 



> He also used a growth hormone to increase the amount of milk. Now that they can&#8217;t use the growth hormone any more, I wonder how he&#8217;s doing.


Quite possibly he's still using the growth hormone (rBST or Posilac). Since it replicates a cow's natural hormones, there is no way to test for it. Some processors require farmers to sign a contract stating they won't use it, but there is no real accountability, just like in organics. 


> Around here the folks at the feedstore are the biggest gossips around.
> It would take a special trip out of the county to buy the OTC meds. LOL


Order it online. 

Now, I like farmers -- I've worked with and for dozens of them (I used to be a herd tester). I think they're amazing, incredibly hard-working people. But I think it would be naive to believe that no one ever cuts corners, especially where money is concerned. People are people! So ... caveat emptor.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

rBST has fallen out of favor in most places, sort of gotten rare. Just didn't justify the cost. While we could discuss/debate the non-digestibility, non-absorbability of rBST in humans, it is a real non-issue. Sort of like debating DDT doctored data. It is gone, no longer an issue.

I could tell you that every organic dairy I have seen was filthy and every commercial dairy was clean. But that is meaningless to everyone else and their notion. 

Difficult to have an open discussion about organic vs commercial milk if everything is either out of context or over-emotionalized. Sometimes we get excited about stuff because we don't have a background of understanding about it. How it is presented sways our perceptions.

If I were to write:"Monsanto's GMO Bt Corn contains Bt, a bacteria known to cause leaky guy syndrome in some insects. Recently, scientists discovered Bt in the stomachs of children. The link between Bt and adolescent stomach cancer is unclear."
But even those with the most basic understanding of natural science would know Bt is in most soils, most animals, most humans and this has likely been true for thousands of years. Bt is harmful to grubs and larva, but safe for everything else. But written in a way to deceive the uneducated it becomes a health concern.

If commercial milk has no drugs in it and organic has no drugs in it, then it is a non-issue. Just because you believe something that isn't true, doesn't make it so. Same level of minerals. Same level of vitamins. Same, same, same.

If you think it is better, even when it isn't, just enjoy it. No need to disparage commercial milk with your unfounded claims.

Yes, people are people.


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

I have some distant relatives who had one of the finest dairy herds in the state. All conventional close to 200 cows. about 3 or 4 years ago they got some kind of disease in their herd that they could not get rid of. It may have been something in the soil too.
They were told by more than one specialist from top Universities that they would never get rid of it and they couldn't. no matter how much they tried. So, they had to sell out.
I have never gotten a good answer from them what the disease actually was...not sure they really knew, but have heard the word Staph, mastitis throwed around some.
Whatever it was, made the milk unsaleable and they were having to pour it down the drain.
They were told no matter what they do they would never get rid of it.
Anyone heard of something like this before?


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## billinwv (Sep 27, 2013)

Take care of your heart! Eat whole milk dairy products from grass-fed cows. 

For decades, we&#8217;ve been told that eating full-fat dairy products increases the risk of heart attack. Now, a study from the Journal of Clinical Nutrition says that the more full-fat dairy products people consume, the lower their risk of heart attack---provided the cows were grass-fed. 

The reason grass-fed milk is protective is that it has up to five times more conjugated linoleic acid or CLA. CLA is a healthy fat found in the meat and milk of grazing animals. People who eat grass-fed dairy products absorb the CLA and store it in their tissues. In this new study of over 3,500 people, those with the highest levels of CLA in their tissues had a fifty percent lower risk of heart attack than those with the lowest levels. Keeping Bossy on grass could prevent more heart attacks than putting people on expensive pharmaceutical drugs with all their troubling side effects. 

Smit, Liesbeth A, Ana Baylin, and Hannia Campos. 2010. Conjugated linoleic acid in adipose tissue and risk of myocardial infarction. The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. Published ahead of print, May 12, 2010.
Organic or not, Cows need to be on pasture in the sun.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

ycanchu2 said:


> I have some distant relatives who had one of the finest dairy herds in the state. All conventional close to 200 cows. about 3 or 4 years ago they got some kind of disease in their herd that they could not get rid of. It may have been something in the soil too.
> They were told by more than one specialist from top Universities that they would never get rid of it and they couldn't. no matter how much they tried. So, they had to sell out.
> I have never gotten a good answer from them what the disease actually was...not sure they really knew, but have heard the word Staph, mastitis throwed around some.
> Whatever it was, made the milk unsaleable and they were having to pour it down the drain.
> ...


Based on what you've told us, my guess would be that they had a lot of cows with antibiotic-resistant Staph aureus mastitis. Probably their somatic cell count (SCC) went too high and processors would no longer take their milk because of it.

The bacteria can spread from cow to cow, and can be difficult to treat. Sometimes it's better to cull a chronically infected cow, even if she's a top producer, rather than keep her around and run the risk of spreading the bacteria throughout the herd. There are other steps producers can take, like segregating the infected and high-cell-count cows and milking them last. Keeping facilities and equipment clean and in top-notch condition also helps (worn-out, slipping liners or fluctuating vacuum levels can irritate the udder and usher in infection). 

The farmer I work for takes especial pride in maintaining a low SCC count. We even flush all the milkers with an iodine solution between cows! Cows with mastitis are treated aggressively and culled if they don't respond or become chronic cases. 

As a former herd tester, it's been my experience that farms that struggle with SCC usually have other issues going on as well. Often it's farmers operating on a shoestring, or with equipment that isn't up-to-date or well-maintained. Sometimes you see cases where a farmer has resorted to working off the farm to try to make ends meet, and then the cows don't get milked on schedule, or the barn isn't scraped as often as it should be, etc.


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

Thanks WG, That sounds like the problem. I don't know how up to date they were, but they had to file bankruptcy, lost everything even their homes. Very, very sad situation. They had been doing this all their lives.


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

How very sad. Hate to hear of things like this, but it does happen. Hope they have found a way back.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I might have gotten the calving off. I know our most modern dairy man breeds his cows right after calving. Wouldn&#8217;t be the next day, but I think he next month. Apparently they are most fertile then. Organic cannot breed that soon. It may be four months, I don&#8217;t go there anymore so I can&#8217;t ask. 

Thank you, BillinWV. I really miss my fresh milk.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

Maura said:


> I might have gotten the calving off. I know our most modern dairy man breeds his cows right after calving. Wouldnât be the next day, but I think he next month. Apparently they are most fertile then. Organic cannot breed that soon. It may be four months, I donât go there anymore so I canât ask.
> 
> Thank you, BillinWV. I really miss my fresh milk.


Sorry I can't believe any of this.
I don't know any farmer that breeds back sooner than 60 days except the organic guys. 
I ran organic dairy cows and there was no minimum amount of time required between freshening and rebreeding. Usually the animals worked it out for themselves since the bull ran with the herd 24/7. And that was normal for any of the organic herds I visited.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I have looked at the records of dozens of herds and have never seen a farm who begins A.I. breeding cows immediately upon calving. Of course, as Sammy suggests, if a bull is running with the herd, all bets are off! :teehee;

I accidentally bred a cow a couple of months ago who was only about 35 DIM (I misread her calving date). Once I got inside her, I could tell "something ain't right here." I went back and double-checked her records, and sure enough,,,,,,. And no, she didn't settle from that breeding, either.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

billinwv said:


> Take care of your heart! Eat whole milk dairy products from grass-fed cows.
> 
> For decades, weâve been told that eating full-fat dairy products increases the risk of heart attack. Now, a study from the Journal of Clinical Nutrition says that the more full-fat dairy products people consume, the lower their risk of heart attack---provided the cows were grass-fed.
> 
> ...


Isn't hay just sun cured grasses? Clearly, pastured cattle eat the same plants found in hay. Anyone with an 8th grade education knows corn is a grass. Silage is chopped corn stalks with the grain included. So, the non-grass feed is the ground corn and soybeans in a dairy ration that is used to boost protein. On a dry matter basis, these protein supplements don't amount to much.
It was the "Grass is Wonderful, Corn is Evil" bandwagon that put wings on the fictional report that corn fed cattle had high e coli counts. 

Yes, cattle need sun cured grasses. Their digestive systems are designed to process crude fiber. Milk production takes a lot of energy. Energy comes from protein. Higher protein feed often includes corn and soybean.


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## billinwv (Sep 27, 2013)

Food products from grass-fed ruminants (e.g. mutton and beef) are good sources of CLA, and contain much more of it than those from grain-fed animals.[20] In fact, meat and dairy products from grass-fed animals can produce 300-500% more CLA than those of cattle fed the usual diet of 50% hay and silage, and 50% grain.[21]
20.Jump up ^ T. R. Dhiman, L. D. Satter, M. W. Pariza, M. P. Galli, K. Albright, and M. X. Tolosa (1 May 2000). "Conjugated Linoleic Acid (CLA) Content of Milk from Cows Offered Diets Rich in Linoleic and Linolenic Acid". Journal of Dairy Science 83 (5): 1016&#8211;1027. doi:10.3168/jds.S0022-0302(00)74966-6. PMID 10821577. Retrieved 2006-05-27.
21.Jump up ^ T. R. Dhiman (2001). "Role of diet on conjugated linoleic acid content of milk and meat" (PDF). Journal of Animal Science 79. Retrieved 2007-03-09.


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## DisasterCupcake (Jan 3, 2015)

cranbrook said:


> Isn't hay just sun cured grasses? Clearly, pastured cattle eat the same plants found in hay. Anyone with an 8th grade education knows corn is a grass. Silage is chopped corn stalks with the grain included. So, the non-grass feed is the ground corn and soybeans in a dairy ration that is used to boost protein. On a dry matter basis, these protein supplements don't amount to much.
> It was the "Grass is Wonderful, Corn is Evil" bandwagon that put wings on the fictional report that corn fed cattle had high e coli counts.
> 
> Yes, cattle need sun cured grasses. Their digestive systems are designed to process crude fiber. Milk production takes a lot of energy. Energy comes from protein. Higher protein feed often includes corn and soybean.


While corn is a grass, it's nutritional value is far different from say, timothy or orchardgrass or ryegrass. Not all grass is equal. 

It is also an annual grass that been selectively bred to produce very large kernels of seeds. Most grasses that provide optimum nutrition for ruminants and the soil are not annuals. 

The annuals complete their life cycle in one season. Which means that they put everything they have into making babies- kernels or grains that will continue the population the next year. The nutritive value of a corn leaf is vastly inferior to the value of a perennial variety at the same stage of life (seeding). The value of corn is in the kernel, as with any annual plant. 

I think the point that the previous poster was making is that, permanent perennial hay is superior nutrition for cows. Whether that hay direct harvested, cured, or silaged, it cannot improve upon the basic value of that feed. Often perennial hay will also include legumes, further improving the value of perennial forage.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Timothy produces seed and vegetative matter in an amount nearly equal to the percentage of corn to it's vegetative parts. 

My intended point was that while it has been proven that there are no nutritional differences between Organic and Conventional milk, the differences in feed for grass raised and conventionally fed are quite minimal. Because their diets are so similar.

I have never heard of cattle that were not pasture raised. As far as I know, all cattle are fed a mostly hay diet for most of their lives. Grain and beans are often added to dairy rations to provide the high proteins needed to maintain condition. Grain and beans are often added to growing cattle to enhance healthy growth. In the final weeks of a steer's life, a feed ration that contains lots of protein increases the grade yield, increasing the value of the steer and providing the tenderness and flavor that most consumers demand.


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