# Why do some think propane is a prepper fuel?



## spiritbear (Jan 6, 2016)

I just don't get why some think propane is a good survival fuel. Especially in vehicles. I see classifieds all the time for trucks or tractors that can run on propane and are advertised as a "prepper special". I realize it can be stored at home to refuel on but the only benefit I see in that is a short term system crash. If things are down more than a few weeks you're going to run out and it will most likely be difficult to get and its not something just anyone can produce more of. I would think diesel, steam or even wood gas are better options since it would be a lot easier to create the fuel.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

In some parts of the country it's not unusual to find property that has free natural gas. You could convert from propane to natural gas. The key component will be a certified tank that will withstand the higher natural gas pressure.

A military surplus or possibly a compressor from a dive shop can produce the pressure needed to fill the tank. 

Propane would be good for short term interruptions if you had a bulk tank or two.

Long term I'd look into buying a property with free natural gas for a guaranteed long term fuel supply.

If you have the enough property to grow a large oil seed crop, you could run the seed through an extractor and use the oil to fuel a diesel. You'll need additional features to run it in the winter.


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## MattB4 (Jan 3, 2016)

Longevity of storage. 

Propane will store virtually forever and not go bad. Gas with ethanol can go bad in a few weeks up to a year. Diesel will last several years with good storage. 

Your options for making your own motor fuel are extremely difficult for the average individual to accomplish. Plus which they require supplies that may not be available also after a major event.


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Probably mostly from the ease of stealing a few bbq tanks or from somebody's home tank. People will likely get the hint to guard their gas or diesel fairly quickly, it might take a while to remember the propane


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## suitcase_sally (Mar 20, 2006)

spiritbear said:


> I just don't get why some think propane is a good survival fuel.


Why don't you ask _them?_


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

If'in I was lookin' for a gas to store long term, I'd get me a compressor, and compress the natural gas coming into my home and store it.. LOTS cheaper!

However, a compressor isn't so cheap, BUT, so long as the utility was supplying gas, it's a lot better than propane.. 

I am one of the people that Darren is talking about having Free Gas... 

Yes, Free Gas is a real cool deal, but let me tell you, it's not always there and available.. .If it's not a free flowing well, then you have to worry about the equipment (pump jack) to keep the well flowing.. that isn't cheap. Also, most people with free gas do not own their well, so they are at the mercy of the well owner... 

Anyway, yes, I am a prepper in ways.. I even have the potential to have 200 barrels of crude oil stored on my property... Now I just need to figure me out a way to crack gasoline off that... 

Seriously, if you want a cheap supply of fuel, get a compressor, get some tanks, and start compressing and storing your own NG.

BTW, I have to get up tomorrow morning and trudge up to my well to get it running (it needs the owner to do some work on it) to replenish the gas reserve in the ground... You have to get the oil out of the chamber in the ground, in order for the free gas to be available....


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

spiritbear said:


> I just don't get why some think propane is a good survival fuel. *Especially in vehicles. I see classifieds all the time for trucks or tractors that can run on propane and are advertised as a "prepper special".*


Ah...you're equating truth with truth in advertising. Nothing could be further from the truth than the wording of many ads. 

Take those "solar generators" that are simply underpowered, over priced pieces of junk....but folks buy 'em !

The purpose of an ad is to get you to buy what they are selling....it may, or may not, have any bearing on the actual fitness for any purpose OF the item.

OK, that aside, I like propane. As has been said, you can store it virtually forever. You can store a lot of energy (92,000BTU/gal) in a tank. It liquifies at a fairly low pressure (compared to natural gas). 

I have three 500gal tanks (filled to 80% =400 gallons), of which two I always keep in reserve (we'll use about one per year for water heating/cooking/some space heating). So I figure that gives me at least a couple years of stored energy for those purposes. I also keep a dozen 100lb bottles (23gal each)...meaning almost another year assuming my supplier couldn't come any more during the using of the first of my 500gal tanks, plus the 100lb bottles are more handy about being portable should that arise. And then probably have a dozen or so 20lb bottles (gas grill size) I used on a camp stove, turkey cooker/etc type burner. (Deck grill I plumbed into the 500gal tank line).

BUT I do also have wood backup for everyone of the purposes we use propane. A wood cookstove out in our 'auxiliary' kitchen. A wood fired water heater I can put into use should the need arise.....won't be hot water on demand as now, in that I'd have to build a fire in it each time we'd want hot water, but that beats no hot water by far ! And of course we heat with wood now, which wouldn't change, and I try to keep 2-3 years of cut/split/dry wood in reserve. (I'm a 2.5 right now as winter ends).

WOOD to me is the ultimate renewable fuel, and we have 60ac of it. One acre in our location will produce a cord/yr forever, and actually improve the final timber yield. We use about 5-6 cords/yr. Math says "endless supply".


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## OwlHillFarm (Feb 11, 2016)

We keep a couple tanks stored because it's such a great band-aid between normal grid function and getting other options up and running. A large tank will run a camp stove for years- seriously. I know it's not a permanent solution, but having some on hand goes a long way toward creating a 'grace period' when/if things go wrong.


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## spiritbear (Jan 6, 2016)

I guess I should have clarified my statements. Yes, it can be stored and is a very efficient fuel but in the end it's really only for short term survival since once it's gone it becomes difficult to refine on your own. I guess it all depends on how one looks at survival and being self-sufficient long term. While many movie depict a system crash bouncing back after a few months to a year it's always possible to see something much more long term. Propane and natural gas are great to use now and during a short term down situation but for long term it becomes much more difficult to acquire. Diesel engines were designed to run on vegetable oil and that is something we can produce on our own in much of the U.S. I'm not knocking propane, I just don't think it's a great fuel source when preparing for long term survival.


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## MattB4 (Jan 3, 2016)

spiritbear said:


> ... Diesel engines were designed to run on vegetable oil and that is something we can produce on our own in much of the U.S. ...


Modern diesels are not going to run on vegetable oil without converting the oil to Bio-diesel. This involves tanks, chemical addition, separation and filtration as well as heating. To get vegetable oil from plants also involves extraction and processing equipment. 

Very few people would be able to successfully long term produce Bio-fuel.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

If you will be staying close to home, I really think an electric vehicle could work. Using solar panels or wind turbine, you collect energy into batteries, then plug in your vehicle. Electric powered vehicles are getting better and better with longer ranges.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Solar power is a great option, but you'd want to set up your car to charge directly from panels, not charge batteries, then charging a car is you what you would in the process.

From panel to battery....15% loss. Battery bank to inverter for 120v, 15% loss. Charging car from a 120v plug, my guess is at least 10% loss.

You second problem is going to be batteries at all...whether in your solar power system, or your car. They all have a usable life, and the more you use them, the shorter that life is. I'd imagine within 5-7 years,(and quite possibly much shorter) most solar power, and most electric cars are going to be needing battery change outs, in a world that stopping making batteries a while back.

Diesel could, as spiritbear said, could possibly be produced from vegetable sources, I think it would more a high volume kind of thing, not easily adapted to local scale. You can get a lot of oil from sunflower seed for example....but it also takes a lot of your product to plant, harvest and press out the oil...and a press....and a good screw type oil press is Not cheap, nor are they just sitting around here and there.

My solution, one I intend to start on this year with a retired machinist friend, is wood gas.....the gas driven off the cooking of wood in a sealed chamber. 

Wood gas is a lower energy type gas per cubic foot (like natural gas), but the technology behind producing it is also 100 years old, and a lot of the bugs have been worked out. The components are also fairly cheap, and readily available, as least NOW. And finally, wood is cheap and abundant where I live, so that works in it's favor.

This is the best long term solution I see for small homestead energy needs.

The amount of work we can do with a gallon of diesel/gasoline fuel is incredible....most folks have zero appreciation it....they simply fill up their tank and go. If you had to physically push a car the 15-30 miles one gallon of these fuels will push it, and it take you a couple weeks, you gain a real understanding of energy, and what a true bargain oil is today....heck, it would be cheap at $200/barrel !


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

It depends on what you are prepping for. If the goal is to bridge a 1 or 2 week electrical outage, propane works well. 

If you are expecting TEOTWAWKI, propane will run out eventually, as will all the consumables you have stored. You need non-consumables like a manual saw, an ax, canning jars, hand pumps, hoes, ect. to make food and heat.

I have a 250 gallon propane tank. It only runs the cook stove. The pilot lights for the burners are turned off. I light the burners as needed. The pilot for the stove is lit because it's a PIA to light it when needed. I also fill 20 pound tanks from the big one to run the BBQ, the camper, the ice fishing house, and the propane fridge I use when camping. The 250 gallon tank lasts 2 1/2 years used this way. If I shut off the gas to the oven's pilot I bet it would last 10 years. 

In a TEOTWAWKI situation I would have 10 years of relative luxury before I had to start cooking over a wood fire. Ten years into it I would have either managed to survive or starved or been wiped out by zombies.


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## WatchRyder (Feb 22, 2016)

spiritbear said:


> I just don't get why some think propane is a good survival fuel. Especially in vehicles. I see classifieds all the time for trucks or tractors that can run on propane and are advertised as a "prepper special". I realize it can be stored at home to refuel on but the only benefit I see in that is a short term system crash. If things are down more than a few weeks you're going to run out and it will most likely be difficult to get and its not something just anyone can produce more of. I would think diesel, steam or even wood gas are better options since it would be a lot easier to create the fuel.


Difficult to run a diesel engine off propane, not so hard for a gasoline one.

I think the biggest issue is what happens when the propane runs out? Big tanks for storage perhaps?


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## WatchRyder (Feb 22, 2016)

MattB4 said:


> Longevity of storage.
> 
> Propane will store virtually forever and not go bad. Gas with ethanol can go bad in a few weeks up to a year. Diesel will last several years with good storage.
> 
> Your options for making your own motor fuel are extremely difficult for the average individual to accomplish. Plus which they require supplies that may not be available also after a major event.


You just have to play at skimming the water from the bad gas, then it is good to go again.

Drop the tank, have suitable containers etc.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

MattB4 said:


> Modern diesels are not going to run on vegetable oil without converting the oil to Bio-diesel. This involves tanks, chemical addition, separation and filtration as well as heating. To get vegetable oil from plants also involves extraction and processing equipment.
> 
> Very few people would be able to successfully long term produce Bio-fuel.


The local barber has been running a Cummins 24V 6BT for several years now on used cooking oil. Other than filtering it, he does nothing to it. He keeps a sample in a small jar in his shop. It's almost crystal clear. 

I got stuck once in an area where I couldn't not get diesel. I bought enough corn oil to get me back to civilization. The 6.9L didn't miss a beat.

I've got a copy of master's thesis from MIT where the authors ran diesels on several kinds of vegetable oil. In each case the oil allowed the engine to produce more power than diesel.

All you need to produce oil from an oil seed crop like soy beans, cotton seed, canola seed, etc. is an extractor which crushes the seed much like a meat grinder. After filtering the oil, you can pour it into a diesel engine's fuel tank and go. The only issue is cold weather which requires the tank have a heating coil through which engine coolant flows.

There is absolutely no need to convert the oil to biodiesel. Other than the Cummins I've also seen a VW running on used cooking oil.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

simi-steading said:


> If'in I was lookin' for a gas to store long term, I'd get me a compressor, and compress the natural gas coming into my home and store it.. LOTS cheaper!
> 
> However, a compressor isn't so cheap, BUT, so long as the utility was supplying gas, it's a lot better than propane..
> 
> ...


If you have access to 200bbls of crude, you could have transportation forever, if you had an operating multi-fuel military vehicle. M35A2's will run off of anything combustible.... prefer diesel, but 'will' run on gasoline.... just have to add some oil to the mix.... also, jetfuel, kerosene, transmission fluid (it's flammable?_), motor oil... even butter.

I also have free gas. Luckily, the pumpjack on my well hasn't been used in a decade, and it flows freely. Only goes down about once a year, and that's usually because someone's driven across my line, or a cow steps in a mudhole, or a tree limb falls 'pointy end' down and hits it square, a foot below the dirt. One does need to keep fitting and glue on hand at all times, cause it usually goes out after hours or on weekends.

If the shtf, the well compressor would keep running, until I walked the third of a mile over, and shut it down. At that point, I'd turn the valves feeding 'my' gas into the pipeline, and secure the 250 gallon tanks of motor oil used to lube the compressors, and secure also the several solar panels. Of course, if securing was necessary, the road would have been 'secured' via backhoe oopsies, a mile away, to keep lost people away.

We also stockpile enough pipe to make emergency fittings to repair any breaks... almost enough to completely replace the lines...

lol at the mercy of the well owner.... own the land, own the minerals, and each time a new well owner visits for the first time, they get apoplectic about someone stealing their gas.... I humbly suggest they either agree the original lease agreement (giving free gas) or shut the well in, cement it. Then re lease the entire unit, and redrill the well.... not wanting to spend 2 million, they slink away....


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Consider this. store 6 100 pound tanks of propane or a large lank and you'll run a gas cook stove for about 4-5 years. Now with no power you'd need a pilot controlled oven. Which to save propane you'll have to relight as used but still. That one modern convenience of fast reliable cooking of hot food on demand would make a huge difference in getting used to doing so much more work to survive. Of course a wood fueled cookstove could be useful but they aren't instant. i think everyone needs to have something easy to wean off the very easy lives we all lead. And cost wise its pretty achievable. With the conversion kit maybe you could make a methane digester and keep on cooking with gas!


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