# CDT shots and disbudding question



## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

I will be disbudding my new 6 day old mini nubians this week ...well the little buck..the girl doesn't have any bumps yet...I am wondering if I give him his cdt shot before I do this?


----------



## SJSFarm (Jun 13, 2012)

I was told to give CD&T at the same time. 

A friend just went to a class and said the testing shows they don't get the proper protection if the second shot is not given within 6 or 8 weeks of the first. 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

6 days is too early for CD-T as they do not yet have an immune system that is mature enough for it to help them. Wait until they are 6-8 weeks old to do the first CD-T and do the second 4 weeks later.


----------



## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I always give their dam's their CD & T booster 3-4 weeks before kidding that way the immunity carries over to the kids. 
Then when I tattoo & disbud the babies I don't give them anything.

If your unsure of the mothers Vaccine's then you can give the babies a tetanus shot to cover them for the disbudding.

Then the babies get their first CD & T Toxoid shot at about 5-6 weeks then the booster is 3 weeks(21 days later) don't miss the 2nd shot or the 1st one is useless.


----------



## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

SJSFarm the 2nd shot is given 21 days after the first.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I do not give CDT at disbudding.


----------



## madness (Dec 6, 2006)

I know a lot of folks do give it but I think it doesn't matter as long as the dams passed on immunity (we do 4 weeks prior to kidding). Just like backforty said, do a tetanus shot if you are unsure.


----------



## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

Ok great..she was given her cdt shot the beginning of April..about 22 days before delivery


----------



## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

Several never give CDT shots. Ever


----------



## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

This info is from the Small Ruminant Info Sheet found here:
http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/CD-Tvaccinations.html

"Lambs and kids will receive passive, temporary immunity to CDT when they consume colostrum. This immunity will start to wane after about six weeks. Thus, lambs and kids from vaccinated dams should receive their first CDT vaccination by the time they are 6-8 weeks of age, followed by a booster 3-4 weeks later."

It also matches what my large-animal vet told me. Because our ram and ewes run together all the time, we didn't know exact due dates of our lambs, so guessed - and guessed wrong. One ewe lambed just 3 days after we had administered the shot that we were hoping was "within the last month of pregnancy". So I asked my vet if I should vaccinate the lamb earlier because it wasn't getting the protection from the ewe's colostrum. She was the one who told me it would be a waste of time and vaccine because initially the lamb's immune system isn't mature enough to know what to do with it. She said even though the lamb had no maternal protection, I should wait until it was 6-8 weeks old. A PP stressed that the booster has to be 21 days after the first shot but both this article and my vet said "3-4 weeks". I put a reminder on my phone when the booster is due and that way I cannot forget.

Someone else said some people don't vaccinate at all. That is true. I recently purchased a 15 month old goat doe who had never been vaccinated. It is personal choice but before I decided to vaccinate, I read up on what the shot covers, and decided it is not worth the risk not to vaccinate. We only have a few sheep and goats - I can't afford to lose any of them because we didn't get them $1 worth of vaccine.


----------



## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Moboiku said:


> I can't afford to lose any of them because we didn't get them $1 worth of vaccine.


I completely agree, and it's not even $1 worth of shots. I just bought a 25 dose vial for less than $9, so even if an animal needs a booster too, it's only $.72. VERY worth it!


----------



## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

Moboiku said:


> This info is from the Small Ruminant Info Sheet found here:
> http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/CD-Tvaccinations.html
> 
> " I can't afford to lose any of them because we didn't get them $1 worth of vaccine.


The ones not vaccinating don't do it because they believe the vaccine was causing death in their goats. A very trusted member on this site is one of them. She said she lost goats to death until she quit vaccinating and hasn't lost one in 5 years since she quit. So that $1 dollar shot may do the opposite of what you want it to do. Ive been hoping she will tell her story. Its not my place to do so.


EDIT: I need to add that a girl that bought a goat from me had it die suddenly a few days after giving her a CDT shot. I have both her sisters at home and they are doing great.


----------



## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

Doug Hodges said:


> The ones not vaccinating don't do it because they believe the vaccine was causing death in their goats. A very trusted member on this site is one of them. She said she lost goats to death until she quit vaccinating and hasn't lost one in 5 years since she quit. So that $1 dollar shot may do the opposite of what you want it to do. Ive been hoping she will tell her story. Its not my place to do so.
> 
> 
> EDIT: I need to add that a girl that bought a goat from me had it die suddenly a few days after giving her a CDT shot. I have both her sisters at home and they are doing great.


Unless necropsy has confirmed that cause of death was a CDT shot, I would be reluctant to base my husbandry on the suspicions of another person, based on their experience.

It is not unheard of for animals to have a reaction to a vaccine - but it is rare enough that the risk/reward ratio is worth it for most. CDT is given around the country, if not the world, to cattle, sheep and goats in huge numbers. If it was the cause of death for a large number of them, farmers - especially those relying on the animals for their livelihood - would quit using it. If one person lost multiple goats, it would be worth a look at other factors that could have caused their death. I would be highly skeptical that one person was unlucky enough to have multiple animals that are all in that rare category of reacting badly - unless they are so inbred that they all have roughly the same genetics and one of those genes is a super-sensitivity to the vaccine.

Again with the girl who bought a goat from you. Unless she had a necropsy done to confirm it, how do you know that is what killed the goat? Her husbandry style may be so different from yours that another factor is more likely at play.

I recently hatched out a bunch of turkeys. I sold two poults to a woman and both died within days. The ones I kept are all still going strong. Was she unlucky enough to choose the two that appeared strong and healthy but were actually weak and sickly, or is it more likely that it was something about the way she was keeping them that caused their death?


----------



## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

The girl with the goat that died had a necropsy done. It was inconclusive. It could of been a reaction to the shot. She had the state lab do the test. The goat developed a high fever. Stopped eating, bloated and was dead the next morning. 

Their are lots and lots of people that don't give the shot. The reasons I hear is it has caused death and it doesn't work. 

I have the CDT shot on hand. I have given the goats shots. I am on my second bottle since last year. I've been very reluctant to give any more shots since this happened and what I've heard from others that have been doing this for years. 

I'm on the fence. I've researched it extensively. Dad raised boers for over 25 years. He never gave a shot and rarely lost a goat. The only ones he lost were usually sick or weak from birth. 

I hate the catch 22 stuff.


----------



## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

I know reactions are possible, but I've never seen one and I've given thousands of CD/T shots.


----------



## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

The reason I ALWAYS do CD & T shots is because years ago we lost my favorite goat because he was not vaccinated with CD & T, had a necropsy done by the vet because I was so heartbroken & had to know why he was fine the night before & dead the next day.

My vet at that time said it was Clostridial perifrigens & CD & T vaccine would have saved him. He also said it's a small price to pay for piece of mind. I've never had a goat since not be vaccinated here & never lost one because I vaccinated it.


----------



## Guest (May 6, 2014)

Doug Hodges said:


> The ones not vaccinating don't do it because they believe the vaccine was causing death in their goats. A very trusted member on this site is one of them. She said she lost goats to death until she quit vaccinating and hasn't lost one in 5 years since she quit. So that $1 dollar shot may do the opposite of what you want it to do. Ive been hoping she will tell her story. Its not my place to do so.
> 
> 
> EDIT: I need to add that a girl that bought a goat from me had it die suddenly a few days after giving her a CDT shot. I have both her sisters at home and they are doing great.


Not contributing to a potential debate, but my experience is the same as your friend Doug. Just sharing my experience and not trying to change anyone's mind on vaccines. I know most advocate vaccines, it's just not for me or my goats.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

This is a good discussion. Glad it is staying friendly. 

I've stopped giving CDT, too.


----------



## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> This is a good discussion. Glad it is staying friendly.
> 
> I've stopped giving CDT, too.



I heard you did. I'm still waiting on a couple more that I discussed it more in depth. Why did you stop?


----------



## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

Davstep said:


> Not contributing to a potential debate, but my experience is the same as your friend Doug. Just sharing my experience and not trying to change anyone's mind on vaccines. I know most advocate vaccines, it's just not for me or my goats.



What happened? Can you give details?


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I'm dashing from project to project this morning, but the short answer is that I read that there are 20 kinds of the things we are vaccinating for. The vaccine only covers type C and D.

I heard too many folks say they had more sick kids when the did vaccinate. 

When I slow down, I'll probably get just a tetanus vaccine into them.


----------



## TeenyTinyFarm (Jan 19, 2014)

Interested in this discussion as well....about to give the CDT booster on my kids....this is giving me pause.

When I discussed vaccines with my mom, she only gave tetanus. But my local TSC does not sell the tetanus vaccine only, just the CDT combo. I am really only concerned for tetanus, though I do keep the antitoxin on hand.


----------



## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/CD-Tvaccinations.html

Quote from the above page:


> Clostridial diseases are* fatal diseases that strike ruminant livestock suddenly, often causing death before any clinical signs are seen.* Clostridia (bacteria) are widespread in the environment. They are normally found in the soil and feces. They are also present in the digestive tract and tissues of healthy animals. For these reasons, vaccination is the best way to prevent disease outbreaks.


If you go to that site, there are several more links discussing the vaccination from different sources.

Treatment for tetanus is seldom successful. Since those diseases are so hard to treat and often kill before even getting a chance to treat, I will always vaccinate.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I see the quote.  I focus on the fact that those disease organisms are all around us all the time, even in healthy animals.

Raising goats is complex. We each do what works for us and our critters.


----------



## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

It wasn't directed towards you, Alice. It's for whoever wants info on vaccines. Yep, we all do what works best for us, but it's still good to have the info so people can make informed decisions.


----------



## Guest (May 6, 2014)

Yes, informed decisions are best and everyone should make their own.

I will agree that the quote above is very strong marketing language. In the end it is all about selling a product.


----------



## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Davstep said:


> I will agree that the quote above is very strong marketing language. In the end it is all about selling a product.


Those websites are not selling a product. Those are sheep and goat websites from colleges and universities....they have no agenda.


----------



## Guest (May 6, 2014)

Universities are conducting research which are funded by someone. Who paid for the research on a given vaccine? What was the authors sample size, control group, other comparisons... What is her background? Who provided the sample products and who received the first report? 

I find it highly unlikely their was no one to potentially benefit from the outcome of this study. I admit I did not look for the report of the study. If you find that I would be interested in reading it just for fun.

I am not an expert. Not sure there is one.


----------



## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

The link I attached was from a sheep and goat management website, run by a highly knowledgeable small ruminant specialist. I believe the other links from that page are also management information pages, not reports on studies done.


----------



## Guest (May 6, 2014)

You're right. You win. It does say the author is a specialist on her page. She is at the University of Maryland's Research and Education center.

http://www.sheepandgoat.com/index.html

"Welcome to the Maryland Small Ruminant Page, an information portal for sheep and goat producers and anyone else interested in small ruminants. The site was developed and is solely maintained by Susan Schoenian. Susan is an Extension Sheep & Goat Specialist at the University of Maryland's Western Maryland Research & Education Center in Keedysville. This home page has links that are mostly original to the site. Use the menu on the left to find links on specific topics. Click on the title bars to open and close the drop down lists. You can also use the search engine to find pages that contain the information you seek."


----------



## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Well it's not really about winning, I was just trying to post more info for people to review if they're trying to make the decision on vaccinating or not.


----------



## madness (Dec 6, 2006)

We do vaccinate for CDT. We haven't lost a goat to vaccinating or to not vaccinating. No mystery deaths here.

I did lots of research and decided tetanus was something I wanted to vaccinate against. But like someone else said, I couldn't find just tetanus.

I did have a freak out this year though. First time vaccinating our new angora girls. One of them SPAZZED. Like nothing I had ever seen. She also bled a lot. Not seen that either. And of course, I couldn't find the epi shot anywhere. Called the vet and he talked me down. Said I had just pissed her off.  But he told me in all of his 20+ years of farm vetting, he had only seen a true allergic reaction to a vaccine twice, both basically before you even got the needle out of the animal. I know you guys aren't talking about allergic reaction, but thought I would throw that in there. The known reaction is very very rare. Now, an unknown longer acting thing is concerning but I have yet to experience anything.


----------



## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

MOST issues with Clostridium is MANAGEMENT. If a vaccinated animal dies of Clostridium (enterotoxemia), it was not caused by the vaccine. Most likely a person suffering losses to enterotoxemia changed management due to learning about the disease, at the same time as they stopped giving vaccine - I'd say it's more correlation vs causation.  

The vaccine is cheap insurance but is NOT a cure all. Not giving the vaccine is your choice - personally here, I'd like cheap insurance on top of good management, to cover my rear a bit more in the cases where the goats thwart my management, or due to circumstances out of my control. 

Tetanus is less management and more just bad luck. Deep anaerobic puncture wounds/injuries are conducive for growth of C. tetani and the release of it's toxin. Its much, much, much easier to prevent with vaccine than it is to treat.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

It's a management and philosophical and lifestyle choice. I don't get flu shots, either.  I think we are vaccinating our human children against too many things.

Immune systems are not supposed to be attacked/manipulated by injected organisms. We're conducting a big science experiment. Yes, I understand that lives are saved, etc. It's just that we do not KNOW if we are doing the right thing.

Whooping cough is coming back. The measles vaccine has proved ineffective long term. Autism and vaccines? I have no idea what the outcome of that debate is going to be.

Lots of things to think about.


----------



## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

I don't get flu shots either, but I do get tetanus shots every 10 years and I'd get a booster if I ever got injured.


----------



## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> It's a management and philosophical and lifestyle choice. I don't get flu shots, either.  I think we are vaccinating our human children against too many things.
> 
> Immune systems are not supposed to be attacked/manipulated by injected organisms. We're conducting a big science experiment. Yes, I understand that lives are saved, etc. It's just that we do not KNOW if we are doing the right thing.
> 
> ...





Amen Alice. I don't get flu shots and I resist giving my kids vaccinations until they make me. I think autism is a cause of all these vaccines.


----------



## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

MDKatie said:


> I don't get flu shots either, but I do get tetanus shots every 10 years and I'd get a booster if I ever got injured.


Same here.


----------



## mammabooh (Sep 1, 2004)

Doug Hodges said:


> Amen Alice. I don't get flu shots and I resist giving my kids vaccinations until they make me. I think autism is a cause of all these vaccines.


As far as I know, they can't make you give them to your kids. The schools try to make you believe that the kids have to be immunized, but that's not true. At least in Ohio, we have, I believe, three types of exemptions for which we can fill out a paper...I think they religious, moral-philosophical, and medical.

We homeschool, but, when our son went to public school for 1st and 2nd grade, I filled out one of the exemption papers. I then received a note from the school nurse stating that those of us that did not vaccinate would be alerted right away if there was an outbreak of something and that we might be required to keep our kids home for a certain amount of time. That never happened, so I can't say how that process would go for sure.

Sorry for the thread drift, but I always feel compelled to let people know they have options they don't know they have.


----------



## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

I really hope this doesn't turn into a discussion of child vaccines, because it'd be great if we could get it back on topic about CD/T. Human vaccines are a different story, and probably best saved for a different forum.


----------



## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

mammabooh said:


> As far as I know, they can't make you give them to your kids. The schools try to make you believe that the kids have to be immunized, but that's not true. At least in Ohio, we have, I believe, three types of exemptions for which we can fill out a paper...I think they religious, moral-philosophical, and medical.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I will definitely check into this. Thanks.


----------



## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

MDKatie said:


> I really hope this doesn't turn into a discussion of child vaccines, because it'd be great if we could get it back on topic about CD/T. Human vaccines are a different story, and probably best saved for a different forum.



Can we add polls to these threads? Id like to see how many do and how many don't. I see it as about 50/50 right now.


----------



## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Doug Hodges said:


> Can we add polls to these threads? Id like to see how many do and how many don't. I see it as about 50/50 right now.


I'm not sure if you can add one to an existing thread...you may have to start a new thread.


----------



## Guest (May 7, 2014)

The issue of vaccines in general are related in my opinion. This section is about vaccines for goats though.

With others mentioning not getting vaccines for themselves, it just reminded me. The reason I even started raising goats a long time ago was to provide my human kids with a healthy source of milk. That meant removing some of the chemicals and alterations in a major food source for them. It wouldn't have made sense for me to go through all of that work to raise and produce healthy milk to re inject a chemical back into their food. I hear a lot of people asking when looking to buy milk from someone if the goat was fed organic, non-GMO, non-Soy and tested but then want the dairy (or meat) animal to be vaccinated?

I also feel that if vaccines do work and mask genetically weaker animals, then as a whole they will be less hardy and become dependent. Not every buck or doe born should be bred.


----------



## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

Just heard one of the premier breeders in the country just had a doeling die from Entro that had both her CDT shots and the antitoxin. This just happened yesterday morning. That seals it for me. NO CDT shots here at Spotted Nubian Farms. 

The lady I talked about earlier, that I listen to, is adamant about not giving the shots. 

Im going to take the approach that if they were going to get it and die, then they are going to get it and die and I will raise disease resistant and hardier animals.


----------



## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

The CDT shot does NOT cause entero. I cannot stress this enough. Clostridium perfringens is an opportunistic pathogen usually present in small amounts in the guts of all ruminants - but if toxin is produced, it is in small amounts and tolerable. When stress, management, or accidents allow a change in the gut environment (usually a large rapid intake of carbs) the C. perfringens begin to grow fast - and release lots of toxins, which is the actual cause of enterotoxemia. NO vaccine is 100% effective - which is why I also keep antitoxin on hand. As I've stated, this is mostly a MANAGEMENT disease where the vaccine can be helpful. 

I'm pro vaccine for the most part, but am not vaccinated in everything myself, nor do I vaccinate all animals for everything either. I'm just not convinced by poor science and anecdotal evidence of the anti-vaccine crowd. I also am not burdened with a fear of science, nor plagued with the fallacy of 'natural' being 'best' in all cases. That being said, If you decide you don't want to do vaccines, then that's your own prerogative.  (I also don't get the flu vaccine - never had the flu. Now, if they had a vaccine for strep throat... I'd be first in line. :/)


----------



## dozedotz (Dec 12, 2012)

Excellent discussion, folks! I've been following it for the past two days and also talking privately about it. We talked to the people in Colorado who make one of the CDT and C&D vaccines and they assured us that the vaccines are safe for pregnant does, kids, etc. We have used them with the understanding that NOT ALL the causes for entero are covered...in other words, that there are other types of the same pathogen that can cause illness and if that happens to a goat that has been treated appropriately, you use the C&D to kill whatever that pathogen is and then you have to start over again with the three injections of the CDT which covers much but not all of the problem...We know breeders that have stopped using the CDT due to believing that it is not covering enough or being successful enough to bother with it...they keep C&D on hand at all times (so do we) and rely on it if necessary. Frankly, I thought GRAIN is the problem...period. Perhaps Dona or someone can say what other food source can also cause the rapid development of the pathogens. I am asking because, honestly, it is to avoid entero that we delay grain for soooo long with our kids...preferring to feed hay, water and milk through 6 months or so before weaning from the milk and then introducing grain. Again, it has worked...and when it works, you tend to say, "OK, I'm sticking with this!" But maybe milk can cause the growth, too??????? Thanks in advance!


----------



## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

A glut of milk can cause the growth, excess lush pasture can cause it, any change in diet can cause the C. perfringens to grow fast and out of control. I read on one site if management practices aren't able to be changed (for example, if animals are going onto new pasture or eating a rich diet) then the vaccine may be needed 3 or 4 times per year. 

IMO, this is not a case of breeding for stronger/more resistant animals. Tetanus does not discriminate. This is not a case of building parasite resistance. Perhaps the entero is more easily prevented, but it's not always preventable. For example, what happened in the "premier breeder's" case that caused her goat to die? Did she make a change in feed? Did the goat escape and eat something it wasn't supposed to? Because surely a premier breeder would be managing goats to prevent entero, but it still happened. In this case, the vaccine didn't prevent the illness, but the goat would not have any chance at all if it were not vaccinated. 

I strongly urge anyone considering not vaccinating to discuss this with their vet. If their vet says vaccinate, ask questions. WHY do I need to vaccinate? What sorts of things do I need to look for if I don't vaccinate? How many cases of entero or tetanus have you seen? What else can I do management-wise to help keep my goats healthy if I don't vaccinate? And ALWAYS keep the antitoxins on hand for C/D and T...enough to actually treat a case...because if an animal comes down with either one, you don't have time to wait and find the treatment. You have to have it ready to go 24/7.

Many dairy goat breeders bottle feed their kids, and those kids get large amounts of milk a few times a day. That can cause entero. Kids from vaccinated dams get immunity from the colostrum. If the dam isn't vaccinated, kid does not have immunity. Something else to keep in mind when artificially rearing kids.


----------



## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

From Colorado State University Extension: 



> What appears to trigger them to cause disease is a change in the diet of the animal. Most commonly, the change that triggers disease is an increase in the amount of grain, protein supplement, milk or milk replacer (for lambs and kids), and/or grass that the sheep or goat is ingesting. Collectively, these feeds are rich in starch, sugar, and/or protein. When
> 
> Ewe
> unusually high levels of these nutrients reach the intestine, Clostridium perfringens undergoes explosive growth, increasing its numbers rapidly within the intestine. As the organism grows in number, it releases very potent toxins (bacterial poisons) that harm the animal.





> For juvenile and adult sheep or goats fed diets rich in grain or allowed to graze lush pasture, more frequent vaccination for enterotoxemia may be warranted; some producers immunize these higher-risk animals two to four times per year to achieve adequate protection.





> Heavily milking dams may need to be fed more roughage and less concentrate to limit the excessive milk production that might endanger their offspring. Keep the feed schedule consistent to lactating does and ewes to limit fluctuations in milk volume for their nursing offspring.


----------



## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

Mygoat. I didn't say it was a cause. I stated that it didn't stop it from happening to a prized doeling worth a thousand bucks. 

The buyer will tell you that since she stopped using it over 5 years ago. She hasn't had one entero death and before that, while giving the vaccine, she had several. She said her problems stopped when she stopped giving the vaccine. That's not my experience but it is the experience from someone that's been doing this a whole lot longer than I have. 

I think most don't give it because they don't think it works. 

Dosedotz, Im with you about the milk. Im going to feed mine milk until they wont drink it anymore.


----------



## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I have never had a kid get sick because I gave the CD & T vaccine but lost the one because I didn't. My vet at the time did say I may never have the same problem in 30 years of having goats but it was up to me if I wanted to take that chance for a vaccine that costs not very much per head.

CD & T not only vaccinates against Entereo but also forms of clostridial perifrigens which everyone has in your soil every where!
If you ever have an animal get that by the time you figure out what's going on & give the Antitoxin it will most likely be too late.

I also don't get the flu shot but that is something completely different. I know when I feel sick & can take myself to the doctor. Our goats can't tell us how they feel or say " call the vet."


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Just to be clear here for folks who are new to the terminology.... The CDT vaccine addresses only *three* bacteria. Two strains of clostridium that cause digestive issues and one strain that causes tetanus.

"CDT protects healthy sheep and goats against clostridium perfringins type C and D (overeating disease) and clostridium tetani (tetanus)."
http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/CD-Tvaccinations.html

Enterotoxemia is *usually* the result of an overgrowth of one of the clostridium bacteria. That is why giving the CDT does not always prevent enterotoxemia. It could be caused by a *different* bacteria that is triggered by overfeeding or a change in feed.

Here's a good paragraph from tennesseemeatgoats.com

"There are three generalized categories of Entertoxemia: (1) Very young nursing kids who overeat on dam's milk. Overeating Disease at this stage of life is known as Floppy Kid Syndrome, seldom has diarrhea as a symptom, and is a paracute condition (rapid onset with quick death if not immediately treated) usually caused by Type C. See my article on FKS on the Articles page of www.tennesseemeatgoats.com; (2) Just-weaned kids who are transitioning from milk to solid food. This type of Overeating Disease may or may not have diarrhea accompany it; (3) Older kids and adult goats. They usually contract C. perfringens type D and green turning-to-blackish diarrhea may occur. If it becomes chronic (keeps recurring), there is probably an underlying chronic wasting issue that should be investigated."


----------



## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

Personal theory alert.

Vaccines temporarily stress the immune system and I think this one takes a couple three weeks to kick in. So you have a period of lowered immune function and if the bacteria are everywhere, the animals are more susceptible to them for a bit. Plus the only protecting against 3 strains part.


----------



## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Doug Hodges said:


> Mygoat. I didn't say it was a cause. I stated that it didn't stop it from happening to a prized doeling worth a thousand bucks.
> 
> The buyer will tell you that since she stopped using it over 5 years ago. She hasn't had one entero death and before that, while giving the vaccine, she had several. She said her problems stopped when she stopped giving the vaccine. That's not my experience but it is the experience from someone that's been doing this a whole lot longer than I have.
> 
> I think most don't give it because they don't think it works.


It is proven effective at lowering the incidence of disease, but no it is not 100% effective in all situations. It is unfortunate that the person lost the valueale kid, but the fact it was vaccinated is a moot point. The vaccine likely ameliorated the disease at first but wasn't capable of preventing it entirely. Or, perhaps due to management, more kids would've died had they not been vaccinated. I just don't see the vaccine making the situation worse. Per dose, it is very cheap and easy to administer. Proper administration of CDT is important - it is temp sensitive, age sensitive etc. Many people take the whole CDT bottle out to vaccinate their herd or kid crop and expect the temperature not to effect it - it does. (cart it around in a bucket of ice, instead) Using a bottle that is 2 years old likely isn't going to impart effective immunity either.

Once again, anecdotal evidence. Suspected Entero, and the change of vaccine to no vaccine was PROBABLY accompanied with the owner learning more about the disease AND changing management. I know I change management yearly, seasonally depending on feeds available, new information I pick up, when kids are born and how many, etc - I wouldn't say the only variable here is the vaccine. I have lost one kid to suspected Entero in 12 years of raising goats. I've vaccinated the whole time. 

And yes, there are other types of C. perfringens. Though, the vaccine does protect against the most common in goats, and does give some immunity to type B as well. A raiser here in MI lost several kids to type A one year, which the vaccine was not effective against.


----------



## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

Davstep said:


> It wouldn't have made sense for me to go through all of that work to raise and produce healthy milk to re inject a chemical back into their food.


Vaccines are not chemicals. They are a small dose of the pathogen, that works by teaching the body how to develop antibodies. Later, if/when the body encounters that pathogen, instead of going into panic mode that there is a foreign body present, it just says "Huh. I've seen that before. I already know how to make antibodies for it." And it starts high production on those antibodies, that run out and attack the pathogen before it makes the host sick.


----------



## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

I am curious if those who do not vaccinate, also do not use dewormer? Dewormer IS a chemical - a poison in fact - so I would think those opposed to vaccines because they feel it is unnatural, are also opposed to using dewormers. If so, how do you maintain the health of your animals?

I had a woman tell me instead of dewormer on her goats, she uses DE, apparently unaware that once moist, DE is inactive. It won't hurt them as a dietary supplement, and may provide some needed minerals - but it won't eliminate a single parasitic worm. So I am curious if those who don't use chemical dewormers know of any natural dewormers that have been proved to be effective (rather than just that their mentor TOLD them it was effective).


----------



## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

I don't think anyone said they didn't use chemicals. I also don't think anyone said the reason they don't use the CDT vaccine is because it's a chemical. The reasons that people have given is that it caused a reaction and death and it doesn't work. Those are the only two reasons that were given. I personally have heard of 3 instances that shots were given and the goat was dead by the next day. 

Their is one person on here that doesn't worm or use coccidia prevention. The reason is that they have never had a problem. They do, however, give the CDT shot.

Edit. Dave mentioned that but its not the reason he doesn't give the shot.


----------



## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

Doug Hodges said:


> I don't think anyone said they didn't use chemicals. I also don't think anyone said the reason they don't use the CDT vaccine is because it's a chemical. â¦... Dave mentioned that but its not the reason he doesn't give the shot.


I couldn't read his post any other way. He said 



> It wouldn't have made sense for me to go through all of that work to raise and produce healthy milk to re inject a chemical back into their food.


I can only think from that, that *he* thought vaccines are chemical in nature.


----------



## Guest (May 8, 2014)

Moboiku,

Are you saying that Formaldehyde and Phenol are not chemicals? Look at the material safety data sheet for BarVac CD/T. It's clearly listed in the Hazardous ingredients. Before you try to call someone out, make sure you know what you are saying.

www.qcsupply.com/media/pdf/msds2/540410MSDS.pdf&#8206;

It also says:
"Chronic effects on humans CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Classified A2 (Suspected for human.) by ACGIH [Formaldehyde].


----------



## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

Lost sheep and goats to vaccination reactions....


----------



## TRAILRIDER (Apr 16, 2007)

Very interesting thread. And YES. Thank you for keeping things civil. I did not know there was any debate over the Cd+T vaccine. Every vaccine could cause a reaction, but I didn't know there was a debate going on. I worry every time I have to vaccinate, dose or deworm my girls. Every single time.....but I still do those things.


----------



## TRAILRIDER (Apr 16, 2007)

BTW my last goat vet, swore that BoSe was NOT to be given to pregnant goats as it could cause abortion. My vet was one of the biggest breeders of Boer goats in our area too. I give mine Bose a month before kidding and do my level best to be on hand for the kiddings and give the kids 1/2 cc at birth as well. She has a lot of nice goats, a lot of healthy babies. My goats have done well and have lots of beautiful healthy babies too. So to each their own.

Also to note. A friend had a goat die from the A or B variety, necropsy proven. which they do not vaccinate for......and I had a horse with West nile virus once, kept stabled, not near any ponds or standing water etc. You never know!


----------

