# How much to pull power to our new property?



## SkizzlePig (May 14, 2006)

So, the DW and I have an accepted offer on our dream property. It's 2 miles down a County maintained dirt road. As a potential contingency for closing, we checked for suitable Internet and power service.

The Internet was easy. Point a dish to the sky and begin the download. The power turned out to be quite a different prospect.

The local electric coop quoted us, check this out, $50,000 :shocked: to hook up power. That $50,000, by the way, did not include any easement charges or attorney fees. Then, once it's hooked-up, we would have the privilege to buy power from them. In their defense, they were very nice about it and were completely understanding when we told we were going to go solar. "We get that more and more", the agent told us.

We were wanting to explore alt energy anyway, but now, we're diving into the deep end. Instead of sending the power company $50,000 - $70,000, then $500 month. We'll add $25,000 to our mortgage and create our own power.

Thought you guys might appreciate this.

Cheers,
Mike


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

Just know what it really cost to power your home by solar.... $25K for solar is not that big a system. FOr a small cabin, basic power but power for a tradiation home your going to be lots of KW short on power. Looking at a few packages $25K will get you a 10kw offgrid system.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

You might look into a remote pedestal. Depending on how your [property is laid out.


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## LuLuToo (Dec 19, 2015)

Since your local electric company is a co-op, make sure you check all the angles. It is very possible that you may be able to recoup all costs involved with running the electric line. Most co-ops cannot afford to run electric line to a home, only to have the home owner turn the power off a month later. Thus, the high cost passed on to the consumer. However, they may offer to reimburse you all costs IF the power is later run on past where you hooked up. That sometimes includes running power to your own barn or shed. Most offer the first 1000 ft, or so, free of charge. So... if you pay $25,000 to run power to your home, then put up a shed about 800 ft away, you may be able to get the power to the shed for free. Once there, you can request a reimbursement of your $25,000. IF they offer this option, they are unlikely to offer to tell you without you asking AND the reimbursement must be requested within a certain period of time after running the power lines to your home. Some may only offer this option if the power is run to a building under a different name. This may still include the shed on your property, but in your son's name, etc. Once you receive the reimbursement, the power can be turned off to the shed. Or you may have to run it to a neighbor's property. If that is the case, it may be worth your while to talk to the neighbor and even offer to pay to run the power to their barn, etc. 

If I were you, I'd get a copy of the bylaws. Read them before you inquire about the possibility of a reimbursement. Above all, be nice. It goes a long way in getting their engineer to help you.

Also, they usually charge a different fee depending on whether you run power to a permanent residence or a temporary dwelling. Many times, you will find you must have a septic system installed to qualify for a permanent dwelling. To my way of seeing things, even if you don't want a septic system, paying for a small system is far less expensive than paying the higher rate to install to a temporary building. Check the bylaws for the wording on this. You may find that if you even mention 'temporary' (as in 'we will temporarily be living in the camper while we build'), then you get the temporary building rate. 

LuLu


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Gary in ohio said:


> Just know what it really cost to power your home by solar.... $25K for solar is not that big a system. FOr a small cabin, basic power but power for a tradiation home your going to be lots of KW short on power. Looking at a few packages $25K will get you a 10kw offgrid system.


You haven't checked the prices lately eh? $25K is a pretty good sized system..

I'm installing 5500 Watts for around $9,000 which will end up being $6000 after fed rebates. 
5500 watts is enough to power my home in Michigan @ 4.3hrs/day of average sunshine.

For $25 grand, you could put in a 10,000 watt system that would give you more power during the day than you could probably use and have more than enough left over to charge batteries.
The batteries are were the big expense is.... 

If you do the system right, you can really get the costs down.. but it involves a lot of planning. 

For instance.. pure sine inverters are really expensive.. but you don't need pure-sine power to turn lights on and run most electronics.. you just need it to run motors for the most part. 

If you go totally LED in your home and you don't run a 65 inch television all day or waste lots of power, $25K can buy one heck of a system.

The trick to saving is to install it yourself.. its not even that difficult from what I can tell.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

SkizzlePig said:


> Instead of sending the power company $50,000 - $70,000, *then $500 month.* We'll add $25,000 to our mortgage and create our own power.


If you really plan to use 500/mo in power, you better plan on a whole lot more than 25,000 solar power system. Average KwHr cost of residential power in the US is something in the 12 cent range....500/mo would mean over 4,000 Kwhrs/mo....an 'all electric' house.

With a little planing, you can live quite well on 500-700kwhrs/mo. Propane/etc, for heat/cooking/water heating...and that is easily in the 10kw solar setup.

Few points:

48v system, I'd go Outback Radian 8kw inverter

LARGE battery bank.....$6-10k

Backup generator....1800rpm diesel, 6-8kw is plenty, don't oversize it to save fuel, and a large diesel tank. Figure $8-10k for this. 

Also, don't forget to budget for battery replacement.....allow $1,000 year for this, and fuel/maintenance for your backup generator....allow 500/yr for that.


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## SkizzlePig (May 14, 2006)

Murby said:


> The trick to saving is to install it yourself.. its not even that difficult from what I can tell.


That's the idea. I'm going to try to only buy one style of each element to the plant and battery storage. That why I can get to know *my* system and not have to continually adapt to different connections, power levels, etc.

That's the hope, at least.


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## SkizzlePig (May 14, 2006)

TnAndy said:


> If you really plan to use 500/mo in power, you better plan on a whole lot more than 25,000 solar power system. Average KwHr cost of residential power in the US is something in the 12 cent range....500/mo would mean over 4,000 Kwhrs/mo....an 'all electric' house.
> 
> With a little planing, you can live quite well on 500-700kwhrs/mo. Propane/etc, for heat/cooking/water heating...and that is easily in the 10kw solar setup.
> 
> ...


Great pointers! Thank you!

You nailed it. We use about 100kw/day. We have the ability to cut back a bit, but not by half certainly.

... and we do plan on a diesel generator. I'm thinking in the 20kw range. The hope is that the generator will cut on at 25% battery level, then charge to 50%. I gotta figure all of this out, but I have about a year to do so. Time's ticking


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

SkizzlePig said:


> Great pointers! Thank you!
> 
> You nailed it. We use about 100kw/day. We have the ability to cut back a bit, *but not by half certainly. *


Really....why not ? Describe your household if you don't mind, I'm curious why your use is that high......




SkizzlePig said:


> ... and we do plan on a diesel generator. I'm thinking in the 20kw range. The hope is that the generator will cut on at 25% battery level, then charge to 50%. I gotta figure all of this out, but I have about a year to do so. Time's ticking


You need to understand batteries a LOT more than the above indicates......

You DO NOT want to ever discharge your batteries to 25%, assuming you're using conventional lead acid batteries. Batteries have a given number of cycles they will charge and discharge....and* the more times you deeply you discharge them*, (called DOD....depth of discharge), *the less number of times you will be able to do so*, and have to replace them. 

Most new solar users with batteries ruin their first set from lack of understanding how it works, or not monitoring their system, or failure to water the batteries....a very expensive lesson.

Ideally, you don't want to discharge below 75%...ever....if you can help it. Your generator should be set to come on at 75%, and take it back to 100%.

A 20kw generator will waste fuel....you only need enough generator to go from the DOD set point back to 100%. 6-8kw is more than enough, plus gives you some to spare to use while charging.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

SkizzlePig, Andy is giving you some spot-on advice. And he speaks from experience, not just from having read a few books.


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## SkizzlePig (May 14, 2006)

QUOTED from "we can't reduce to below 75kw/day"


TnAndy said:


> Really....why not ? Describe your household if you don't mind, I'm curious why your use is that high......
> 
> You DO NOT want to ever discharge your batteries to 25%, assuming you're using conventional lead acid batteries. Batteries have a given number of cycles they will charge and discharge....and* the more times you deeply you discharge them*, (called DOD....depth of discharge), *the less number of times you will be able to do so*, and have to replace them.
> 
> ...


Once again, Andy ... I really appreciate your advice.

Regarding the consumption reduction: I think the main issue is the HVAC. As I understand that's 50% of an average household's usage. I think it might be more than that for us. Our current house is drafty and we're thin-skinned. Not reducing beyond 75kw/day creates a "realistic" target for us. I don't want to assume we can cut back to 20kw/day. You know?

As for the 25% comment, you're absolutely correct. I have NO idea how a battery bank works. That said, the spirit of my intent is that I'm hoping to hold off using the generator until absolutely necessary, then as efficiently as possible push power to the batteries, but don't "fill" them.

Eventually, we'll be expanding beyond just solar to VAWT. I don't want to have the generator fill the batteries and have the solar or wind just wasted. This plan could be completely flawed.

Thank you very much for your advice. I really do appreciate it.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

You have a VERY rare opportunity here building your home. You can go super efficient and vastly reduce your need for energy. It's not only possible to get your use in the 20-30kwhr range, you're nuts if you don't. Building a solar power system to run what you are running now will cost double what you're thinking. 


When I built mine in 1985, I did a double 2x4 outside wall (9" thick, R-30) , R38 overhead, etc. Today, I'd go with similar construction, but have spay in foam done that would improve on those numbers + cut air infiltration to near nothing. Ever light in the place should be LED.....Cree makes absolutely SUPER can LEDs that use about 1/2 what even lousy light florescents use.
Your hot water should be solar vacuum tube.

And lastly, I'd get out of my mind central HVAC.....a concept developed in days of cheap energy. Go with what the rest of the world does....zoned mini-split systems. Silly to heat/cool parts of a house you aren't even in. They now also make a system that runs on a combination of 220v power, and 3 solar panels....running strictly off the panels during the heat of the day when AC load is the heaviest.


I have an 18,000btu in our living/dining/kitchen area (older unit, Seer 18) and a 12,000btu unit in the master bedroom (Seer 23). The new one in the bedroom is so quiet inside and out, you have to check to see it's running. Both of ours are heat pump units, but we only use them for summer AC....we heat with wood.

By the way, we use about 1,000kwhrs/mo, run the whole farm + a woodworking shop and I have 6 freezers running for food storage on an 11kw solar power system, AND we sell enough excess back to the grid that it pays us about $700/yr....which offsets our propane use (cooking/water heating)


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

SkizzlePig said:


> ...Not reducing beyond 75kw/day creates a "realistic" target for us. ...


But that puts an unrealistic demand on solar.

Just to run some numbers:

You'd be looking at a battery bank in the 8000Ah @48v or 4000Ah @ 96v. That's 96 of these batteries at about $1000 each. That's $96,000 in batteries that you'll have to replace every 7 to 10 years. Even stretching that out to 12 years that's $666 a month in just batteries ($96k/12years/12months). Then add you fuel costs on to that. Grid power is cheap if that's what you plan to use.

WWW


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Just throwing this out as an amateur, which I definitely qualify for along side of some of the posters above, but...

Would it be a reasonable idea to plan on a solar setup that can run all but the very worst energy hogs and then plan on a generator to fill in the gaps where it's beyond the system? For instance, I don't think the OP will be running the air conditioning system every day of the year. Could a generator be the answer to those days when they want that particular creature comfort and not have it even be a factor with the solar setup? Or the clothes dryer, maybe? (The dryer could give the generator exercise on those winter days when the 'solar clothes dryer isn't practical.)

I don't know the actual location the OP is looking at and what the typical daytime temps are but there may be places where the need for AC only lasts for a week or two and then it's not so bad. It does kinda depend on where they are.

Another thing I was thinking of, if they are building a home, building with energy efficiency in mind might make a huge difference in what might be needed. (I'm thinking of "net zero energy" type stuff.) Some construction types really do lend themselves to taking less energy to be comfortable. I'm not an expert there either but there is a lot of info available online. Energy you don't need is energy you don't have to produce.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Yes it's possible and can be done a couple different ways. I know one that does it for there washing machine. They only run the washer when the generator is running. 

We also do that at our cabin. We have a solar setup for lights and music during the day but the wife is on oxygen and a CPAP at night. We run a small generator to power them.

WWW


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

TnAndy said:


> Your hot water should be solar vacuum tube.


Those things are soooooo neat... They get warm even on a cloudy day! I was amazed...

But they are also darn expensive..


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Anything to do with heat should be done thermally.

Sizzlepig - Something else to check into. When my parents had a power line run to a house it cost quite a bit like yours. But they also got reimbursed most of that cost as neighbors hooked into that line and extended it on. Ask them if that the case with you. You could have neighbors waiting for the line to come down that far so they don't have to pay as much. I think it took only about 3 years for my parents to be reimbursed 90% of the cost.

WWW


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## LuLuToo (Dec 19, 2015)

wy_white_wolf said:


> Anything to do with heat should be done thermally.
> 
> Sizzlepig - Something else to check into. When my parents had a power line run to a house it cost quite a bit like yours. But they also got reimbursed most of that cost as neighbors hooked into that line and extended it on. Ask them if that the case with you. You could have neighbors waiting for the line to come down that far so they don't have to pay as much. I think it took only about 3 years for my parents to be reimbursed 90% of the cost.
> 
> WWW


Yes. As I wrote above, there are frequently ways to be reimbursed. I would definitely check into it. Whether you have solar, or not, the property value will not be negatively impacted by having electric power available.

LuLu


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Murby said:


> Those things are soooooo neat... They get warm even on a cloudy day! I was amazed...
> 
> But they are also darn expensive..


No, not too bad....for example, a 15 tube with 40gal tank here ( https://www.dudadiesel.com/solar.php ) is $1749. Take the 30% federal credit off that, and you're down to $1200....and my last direct vent 40gal propane water heater was little over $900.....


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

TnAndy said:


> No, not too bad....for example, a 15 tube with 40gal tank here ( https://www.dudadiesel.com/solar.php ) is $1749. Take the 30% federal credit off that, and you're down to $1200....and my last direct vent 40gal propane water heater was little over $900.....


Maybe wrong but I thought the tax credit for thermal is setup different from PV. I don't think it's a straight %. It's also performance based so homebuilt thermal unit doesn't qualify.

WWW


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

From the federal Energy.gov site:

Solar water-heating property 

30% for systems placed in service by 12/31/2019
26% for systems placed in service after 12/31/2019 and before 01/01/2021
22% for systems placed in service after 12/31/2020 and before 01/01/2022
 There is no maximum credit for systems placed in service after 2008.
 Systems must be placed in service on or after January 1, 2006, and on or before December 31, 2021.
(You may be thinking about these parts below)


 Equipment must be certified for performance by the Solar Rating Certification Corporation (SRCC) or a comparable entity endorsed by the government of the state in which the property is installed.
At least half the energy used to heat the dwelling's water must be from solar in order for the solar water-heating property expenditures to be eligible.
 The tax credit does not apply to solar water-heating property for swimming pools or hot tubs.
 The home served by the system does not have to be the taxpayer&#8217;s principal residence.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Wouldn't most air-conditioner usage be during the day when it would be directly served from the solar panels?

What are the energy savings of delivering cooled air from buried earth tubes ?


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> Wouldn't most air-conditioner usage be during the day when it would be directly served from the solar panels?
> 
> What are the energy savings of delivering cooled air from buried earth tubes ?


Still need a battery bank to handle the large charging/discharge from the AC when it kicks on/off or the sun dips behind a cloud.

WWW


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Something used in the truck driving world is a tiny air conditioning system that runs off of batteries that's designed to keep the cab of a truck cool for 8 hours or so while a driver can get some sleep. The systems came into place as the 'no-idling' laws became more popular. 

The thing about it is, it only has to cool a very small space. Small amounts of cooling can be done with relatively small amounts of power to make a small comfort zone. 

Maybe the house could have just one or two rooms with air conditioning as opposed to a whole house air conditioner? Or a whole house fan, which I've seen work rather effectively. 

Just throwing out thoughts.


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