# Help with a thin goat



## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

OK, sure didn't take me long to need some help! I purchased a two bucklings at the auction about a month ago - one LaManca and one Saanen. Obviously no papers or anything. We go to the auction to get a better feel for prices and in fact I didn't plan on buying anything (auction barn is a very dangerous place for us!), and to be honest I was losing interest after three hours. But I heard the auctioneer going down, down, down and finally said "someone give me a dollar for these goats". I looked down and saw two of the most under-nourished kids I've seen in a while and I paid a buck. 

Unfortunately the Saanen didn't make it. We tried our best - even to the point that once he was choking on a piece of corn husk he found on the ground. I couldn't get him to breath after I dug it out of his throat so I gave him mouth to mouth. (That's a whole nother story and quite amusing I might add). He made it another week after that, but sometimes you just start too far in the hole. 

My dilemma now is this. The LaMancha (I call him Stilts because he is so skinny with long legs) hangs out with a little Nubian doeling and I kept them separated from the herd for a while. Now I put them all together since I am getting ready for the colder weather. Since I put them together these two just hang out by each other. They have no interest in playing or doing the pecking order thing - to the point they don't eat well. She does better than him and he has me really worried. I feed them separately, and the two even come out of the pen to forage on weeds and grasses, but he won't put on weight. 

I wormed him with Morantel Tartrate, but he doesn't eat all the pellets. I don't have ivermectin, except for the 1.87% horse wormer - is that goat-safe? I also have been giving him B1 shots (since he is not eating much at all) and our vet recommended B-complex. So he is getting 1.5cc of that daily now. He does seem to eat better when he gets to just wander the barnyard, but the food will be gone shortly with winter coming. He seems to have a slight cold - little bit of nasal discharge and an occasional cough. I have not started antibiotics at this point. 

Thoughts? What should I do differently? What haven't I thought of? Help me out folks! tia


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## Rockytopsis (Dec 29, 2007)

Boy I hope some one chimes in here besides me. Just looking at him I would say wormey, and from what I have read the peleted kind does not work all that well. 

Nancy


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

I would worm now with cydectin and then again in ten days and once more in ten days.For the snotty nose does he have a fever with it? That could be a sign of allergies but also pneumonia. I give mine children's mucinex (2 cc). Allergies are horrible here right now everyone from me to every animal is suffering. Also have you had him on any type of cocci prevention? If not I would start now. He sure is cute and I am sorry you have been having such a hard time. I know how you feel I lost two within the first two weeks of them coming home.


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

Thanks for the reply. I've never used cydectin - would you get the injectable I imagine? They did have bugs on them when they came and it took a few dustings of DE to get rid of them, but the exterior bugs are gone now. 

Any other opinions on type of wormer? Also, I am not the greatest with the meds (wifey likes to do that and I don't) I am the administrator of shots, she decides what goes in the syringe. But she is at work and this morning this little guy is pretty down this morning. Is it ok to treat with cocci meds along with the wormer and b-complex all at the same time? I don't want to shock his system or OD him on anything...


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

Your best bet (if you can afford it) is take a sample and see what type of worms you are dealing with. I cannot do it on a normal base because my vet charges around 70 bucks to do a fecal... yeah I know hes a rip off. 

Cydectin is what we use here (and most use on their farm) and yes we use the cattle pour on (purple color). This here is a great link to keep bookmarked or print it out. It has all the different wormers on it. Worms/Wormers Give all wormers orally you do not want to SubQ any of it. 

I have done all three before without any ill effects. Again I suggest if you can afford to go get a fecal done. He might need a cocci treatment instead of a preventative. 

Cocci preventative we use is CoRid (6.25 cc per 22 lbs. for 5 days.) There is other preventive out there and someone else can chime in here on that.


Edited to add this - Here is a link to all the different medication for Cocci and more about it. http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=9125.0


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## trnubian (Mar 19, 2005)

If it were ME, here is what I would do. Get some Thiamine and give him that instead of the Vitamin B complex. Go to the farm store and buy a tube of Quest for horses. Squirt it into a small bowl and mix it up real good. Then suck up the correct dosage into a syringe. ( 1 cc per 100 pounds given orally.) It takes a little bit to suck up the dosage but it's worth it to make sure it is mixed well and dosed at the proper level. The Quest is the horse version of cydectin and is great for people who do not have tons of goats. The other types of cydectin come in large doses that it would take some 5 years to go through.

Feed through de wormers rarely work. I would dose him with the quest now and again in 10 days.

Also get him on some sort of probiotic like probias or jump start or go and steal cud from a healthy adult and make him eat it. (The later would be best.) Do the probiotic 2 or 3 times a week until he seems better.

Unless he has really dark runny stool I would wait a week or so on the cocci prevention just so you don't go overboard on him.
If you can get them I would also get him on lactated ringers to rehydrate him and help give him a boost.
Put him and his goat buddy in a pen by themselves and offer free choice alfalfa hay and maybe a little kid starter and free choice loose mineral and of course fresh clean water.

It also sounds like he has pnuemonia. In his weakened state and lowered immune system and being brought through the stress of the sale barn I would be surprised if he DIDN'T have pnuemonia. I would give him a shot of banamine (1cc per 100 pounds) now and a shot of excenel (I dose at 1 cc per 25 pounds for 3 days).

He may still not make it but that is what I would do to try and pull him through. Like you said before, sometimes you get them too late in the game.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

You can use either injectable or pour on Cydectin, but give it to him ORALLY.

The pelleted wormers don't work. The goats never eat enough of them to be effective at anything other than raising the resistance of the worms to medications.

Has he been on coccidia treatment or prevention? If not, you may wish to start him on that. It could have a lot to do with why he is so thin.

If he were to come into my barn, he would be in quarantine (pending tests....sorry, but sale barns have cooties, and often critters come from there with incurable diseases that I don't want spread in my herd), he would be wormed with TWO different kinds of wormers, given orally, at no less than twice the labeled dose by weight. I would likely use Ivomectin and Eprinectin, since those are good in my area, but Cydectin and Ivomectin would be fine. (Yes, your horse paste will work. Give it to him at 3x the recommended dose by weight)

I would also be giving him shots of B-Complex.

THEN, I would also be dosing him with 5cc Replamin Plus Gel. At that young, his coat should NOT look like that. He is mineral deficient.

All of the things I have suggested _will not hurt him, even if you give him too much._ In fact, with wormers, it is ALWAYS better to err on the side of "too much" rather than "too little".

A good, one-hit-and-you're-done, wonder drug for coccidia is Baycox. You can get it from your vet (it is an Rx in the U.S.) or you can order it here:

Baycox 200ml 5% Toltrazuril

Toltrazuril is the generic name for the stuff. Don't worry about having a 200ml bottle of the stuff, if you have goats, and subsequently have kids, this is something that you need to have on hand.

Yes, you can give it all to him at once. The oral wormers will take a day or so to work.

I am not going to sugar coat anything, that kid is in bad shape. Goat kids seldom show any sign of illness or lethargy until they are in severe danger.


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

trnubian - thanks for the detailed info. A few questions from this newby here - 

lactated ringers - ??
banamine - paste or injectable? I'm thinking inject since you said shot but it's never safe to assume.
excenel - I don't have that but I have Nuflor, duramycin 72-200 and tylan. Can any of those substitute?

He is looking much better now. He is sitting up in the sunshine, I can imagine his ears are perked but cannot tell for sure (lol), and chewing his cud. Seems like a good sign - right?

I do have probios and fresh start and can work on making him and his buddy a pen separate from the others this afternoon and give them free choice of the good hay along with fresh water of course. 

He loves grain, but have been afraid to give him much because I've heard that can increase the polio risks??


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

Thanks for the replies!!

A few other things - 

Stay on B-complex? Or just do the thiamine?

Per our vet's advice I gave him some ivermectin. He said 2cc per 100# - he's about 35 lbs and I gave one cc. From what I read above I can give him the cydectin as well? 

Sorry for all the followup questions. Sifting through all the advise I just want to make sure.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

Just a warning if he had bad coccidia as a kid his digestive system may be past the point of repair and he may never thrive. I had a Boer with that problem and he had a similiar look and general not doing well. I would deworm with the quest gel but the ivermectin paste may work too. I've heard anywhere from 2-3 times the horse dose by weight. I aways over do it.


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## trnubian (Mar 19, 2005)

If you have already given him the ivermectin (and I actually use the dosage at 1 cc per 35 pounds so the ammount you gave him is good) I would wait 10 days and then use the cydectin or Quest.

You can continue the vit. B if thats all you have. If you had Thiamine that would be better and that helps to prevent polio actually.

Just start slow with the grain. Work him up slowly to where he is eating a good ammount. If you start slow he should be fine.

The Nuflor will work for an antibiotic but it burns and they don't like it. I forget the dosage on that one right now though.
Yes the injectable banamine is what I was referring to. 
Lactated ringers are basicly saline bags like IV bags you get from your vet. You just give it sub Q in several different spots across their back and sides. Not given as a IV.

Good luck!


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

Never have heard that term. I have several saline bags that I keep on hand - just give it subq? Interesting. Dosage?

I have vit B-complex as well as thiamine hydrochloride. Like I said, I'm bad with deciding what to use and the med names. Is the thiamine hydrochloride ok/bad/good/none of the above?


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## mammabooh (Sep 1, 2004)

I was just looking at his picture here and in the other thread you started. His back end looks really strange to me...like it's poofed out or something. I was just sort of wondering if maybe he has some sort of internal abnormality. 

Anyone else think it looks weird?

I sure hope you can get the poor guy straightened around! Oh...and welcome to the board!!!!


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## trnubian (Mar 19, 2005)

Nuflor is 1 cc per 33 pounds. Yes you can give the saline bags under his skin. If he is drinking well and does not have the poops though he should be ok without any. But you could give him half a bag if you think he needs it.

As far as the thiamine goes I would have to look at the bottle to see what it really is. If you are giving him plenty of vit. B complex that will help boost his thiamine anyway. But ask your vet about the Thiamine you have and see what he recommends.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Thiamine hydrochloride is the right stuff.

Nuflor will work. It stings, though.


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## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

I also would do a fecal on him to see exactly what he is dealing with (they can tell you if you are dealing with cocci or not and exactly what type of worms he has if any which helps you know what to worm with). Also I would copper bolus him if you haven't already and give him a shot of BOSE if you are in a selenium deficient area. To get weight on him I would use Equine Senior horse feed (I use Purina brand) and start out slow, this is what my goat vet uses on her herd for thin animals and recommended to me when I have had animals get really thin.

Another thing if you can't get ringers you can orally get them hydrated. It will take you a few hours so have some patience but it works. I did this with a buck that I had go down a month or two ago and it saved his life. I did a gallon a day of pedialyte and I just syringed it down his throat 20cc's at a time (do it carefully so it goes down his throat not his wind pipe, I got a drenching syringe like this Pipestone Veterinary Clinic and that at my local feed store and it made it easier)

Oh another thing is I would get some probiotics in him and have some baking soda out for him to eat. Praying he pulls through for you! 

Justine


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## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

Oh I just saw you have some saline on hand. I would ask your vet how many cc's he should get Sub-Q but I think the most you can put in any one spot is 15-20cc's but don't quote me on that. It might be less with him being such a small kid.

What is his temp running? That will tell you a lot about how bad of shape he is in. Chewing cud in my book is a good sign, if they are really sick they won't be chewing cud at all.

Justine


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

I can only imagine how Nuflor stings - I can't count how many times I've been kicked injecting it! (Of course after years of rodeo and horse training getting kicked by goats and calves is nothing!) 

He has normal goat poop, no runs. He really enjoys getting into the old produce that we pick up from the grocery for the pigs. Leafy greens, watermelon, cants, pumpkins, apples, strawberries, grapes etc. I let him go for it because I feel it adds a variety of vitamins that his hay doesn't give him - that should be ok shouldn't it?

He is looking better now and is up and around. He always seems to perk up a bit after the B-shot. Will be building a small pen for him and buddy later today.


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

I have half a pallet of equine senior and mare n foal that the feed store gave me. It has sat out and the top bags were ruined but the bags underneath are good (fresh, not moldy). That is his favorite, but as I said I have hesitated giving it to him. 

Probios dosage? Seems like all I can find is for new kids. I have one tube left with 25 g left in it.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Figure the dose for new kids as equal to 5lbs, then give him that dose by weight. (If he is 35lbs, give him 7 times the dose. If he is 60lbs, give him 12 times the dose, etc.)

B-shots perk up goats and give them appetite...but if it has such an obvious reaction, it means he really needs it.

Goats are browsers, so they eat a variety of things. If he has been mainly on grass hay, and grain, he has not gotten the vitamins and minerals that he needs. Goats need a LOT of copper, mind blowing amounts of copper. They also need a LOT of selenium. These minerals are mid-layer trace minerals (which means they tend to concentrate under the topsoil layer, but above the deep soil layer), which means that grasses, such as hay, and cereal grains (which are just another grass) are too shallow rooted to bring up much of them into their plant material.

Which is why goats tend to prefer to browse on broadleaf plants, and woody-stemmed plants (trees), as these have deep enough root structures to bring up the minerals into the plant fibers that goats need.

Barring getting him completely on kudzu hay (which I don't think even grows in Idaho), your best bet is to get a mineral gel down him. There are other reasons for that, also... the only thing that really fights off barberpole worms in goats is copper. The mineral gel contains lots of copper that is highly bioavailable.

Hope this helps!


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## trnubian (Mar 19, 2005)

LOL load him up on the probias. really can't over do that too much. I give big girls 10 and the little uns 5.
Sounds like he is feeling ok if he is chewing his cud and yes the garden leftovers are good. Just alot of water bases so he isnmt getting all that much nutrient wise. treats are good but for right now I would be concentrating on protein and energy. Protein in the alfalfa and energy in the feed. That feed you have sounds like it would be good.


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

We are in a selenium deficient area, so I do have a lot of BoSe on hand. We've always done BoSe injections IM with success at 1cc per 40#. Sound right?

The thing with copper is that we have a few sheep in with the goats and have copper free salt. Is a copper bolus the best remedy to get all our goats the needed amount of copper?


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## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

A lot of people here have switched to using Replamin Plus gel, I still do copper bolus as I don't have time and I have a large herd to be doing the gel. Copper bolus I give twice a year and that along with good minerals helps keep their copper levels up enough. But Replamin Gel plus might work better in your situation being as you also have sheep in with your goats. It also probably would work faster which is what you are needing right now for this little guy. I will let someone else tell you about the Replamin Plus gel (Caliann is the one who discovered it and it has worked really well for everyone it seems to has tried it).

I give BOSE twice a year here and I give it 1cc per 20lbs Sub-Q. But if 1cc per 40lbs work in your area then stick with that. I could do IM but I just have always done Sub-Q. Has he had a BOSE shot yet?

Justine


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

He did get BoSe when he first came. It's pretty much a first day protocol due to the very low selenium levels here. (I am in southwest Idaho - I see you are in Oregon GoldenWood, depending on where you are we may have very similar soils). Is there a reason to do subq? I always have a hard time with it, especially on thin, bony animals such as him. ** EDIT - I HATE giving shots, but at least I don't refuse to. The wife simply cannot do it and it needs to be done. Yay me!

I will check into the Replamin Plus. The bolus seems like it would take much longer to absorb in the gut. Can anyone chime in about the gel?

** Update - he is up and walking around like normal now. When he heard me come outside he came walking over to me as he always does with his tail held high and wagging. Obviously he is not "all better" but it gave me a big dose of optimism compared to his condition this morning!


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## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

The bolus does absorb in the gut slower but it stay in their gut for a few months and get absorbed slowly so it lasts longer. The Replamin Plus gel gets absorbed faster and metabolized faster I believe plus it has a lot of other good vitamins in it. I believe what everyone does is they do a course of three days and then they go to weekly doses of the gel at 5cc's per dose? Don't hold me to that but I believe that is what I read they where doing.

On the Sub-Q versus IM I don't think there is much difference, I just have always done it Sub-Q. Though I agree with bony animals it sure makes it harder!

Oh and I live in northern Oregon about 30 miles out from Portland.

Justine


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

~sighs~ Don't you hate it when you write nearly an entire post, and then your browser hiccoughs and you lose all of it?

Writing AGAIN.....

Replamin Gel Plus is basically a multi Vitamin/Mineral, in which all of the trace vitamins and minerals are presented in their most bio-available form, which aids greatly in absorption.

The Pros:

1. It is a complete Vitamin/Mineral. And balanced. Unlike free-choice loose minerals done as cheaply as possible by the feed mills, you don't have to figure out if the sulfate in the magnesium sulfate is great enough to inhibit the uptake of the zinc, or if there is not enough copper in an easily absorbing form for your goats. The gel has little in the way of sulfates (which can inhibit uptake of other minerals), and everything in it is in the MOST bioavailable form that you can get.

2. You don't have to worry about if your goats are even eating their minerals. With keeping out loose minerals, some goats eat lots of them, some goats won't touch them even if they need them desperately. This stuff is dosed, you KNOW they are getting what they need.

3. There is no waste. With keeping out minerals, you lose some to goat playing it, some to them fouling it, some to rain and humidity, etc. You dose this, so no waste whatsoever.

4. It's cheaper than any GOOD loose mineral out there.

Now, the Cons:

1. You DO have to dose it. It is given orally. The first couple of times you'll have some goats that think that you are poisoning them, and some goats that are trying to bite your fingers off because you have a little smeared on your hands. Reactions to the taste of it vary from goat to goat. After about the 2nd or 3rd dose, you'll have some that suck it straight from the tube and will try to mob you for it, and some that are ambivilent. Only a few will still think you are poisoning them.  But, at any rate, if you have a LOT of animals that you do not handle regularly, it will be too much labor involved to use it. However, if you have a few animals that you are handling on a day-to-day basis, adding in the gel won't be a problem.

Ummmm, that is about it for the cons. If you have a bunch of meat goats out in the pasture, it is likely not a management practice for you. But is you have 10 goats that you are petting and working with every day, it is a good bet. If you have a mixed herd of sheep and goats, it is DEFINITELY a good bet, because you can't leave out loose minerals that are suitable for goats where sheep can get at them. The copper in goat minerals will kill sheep.

Now, dosage on it:

For heavily deficient animals, you should give 5cc orally, once per day, 3 days in a row. Then wait 4 days, and give another 5cc dose. After that, you can give 5cc doses weekly, for maintenance, and that will cover all of your mineral needs.

If the animals are NOT deficient, you can go straight to a 5cc dose given once per week.

Replamin Plus Gel comes in two forms, both tubes. The small tube is 80cc, and has a dial-type dosage plunger. It costs about $16 therabouts, depending upon where you get it. The 300cc tube requires a special gun (caulk gun won't work, it is too small). The gun is approximately $19, but it is a one-time expence. The 300cc tube costs about $22, again, depending upon where you buy it.

In any goat with even the slightest deficiency, you will see very obvious results within 3 weeks. They will shed old coat, and grow in a new one that is fine and silky. They will start putting on weight. Producing does will start producing better, and there is even one case on here where a doe was giving bad tasting milk, and after going on the gel, her milk sweetened up and kept well.

Some people have had some problems dosing their goats....all mine treat the stuff like candy now. You can mix it with feed or treats for the reluctant goat.

Oh, on injections, except for hormones (Lutelyse, PG600, etc.) ALL injections are given SQ. Hormones are the only ones given I.M.


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

Calliann - your first sentence made me laugh! I've done that today in fact!

Thanks so much for the information. I can add another con to your list - being readily available, at least in my location. I have called every feed store type place in a 30 mile radius and they have never heard of it and - get this - they have all stopped selling copper calf bolus as well! 

I have started looking at alternative copper supplements. I may go get some sesame seeds - they are the highest in copper I have found that I think I can coax the goats into eating. (Liver and oysters are probably a no go lol.) I will order some Replamin Gel today. Good news is that he is up and about - eating fallen leaves which hopefully contain some of these mid-level soil trace minerals.


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

Hey Guys,

My name is Kayann and I am on Goat World but not lucky enough to be here as of yet... LOL 
I was talking to one of my farm supply guys and he had mentioned that when cows have wire they fail to thrive like this little goat is. Since we don't know where he came from exactly would it be possible that he could have wire?? Would it be harmful to him to put a magnet in his belly? I know that goats are PICKY eaters but if he wasn't being cared for properly would it be a possibility???


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

I am Nod's wife by the way... Sorry


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Hi Kayann!

Goats very seldom eat wire, even when surrounded by it and starving. Their mouths, unlike cattle, are small, as are their teeth. It is very unlikely, especially for a young goat, to mistakenly consume a bit of wire. This is in contrast to cattle, whose large mouths could easily swallow a bit of baling twine along with a mouthful of pigweed in poor conditions.

There are SEVERAL "problems" that can cause a failure to thrive in goat kids. Most common of them are mineral deficiencies. Copper, selenium, and cobalt deficiencies all can cause your boy's symptoms. Cobalt, especially, is needed for a goat to utilize B vitamins, most notably thiamine. That is likely why the B-Complex perks him up so much.

Along with minerals, there are different parasites that can cause a failure to thrive. One is coccidia, which in young kids will scar the intestinal tract and make them unable to absorb nutrients. Heavy worm loads will make them anemic and steal their food from them.

In diseases, upper respiratory infections will sap their strength and ruin their appetite. 

But, other than coccidia (which ALL goats have, it is just that adult goats have developed an immunity to them), most of the rest boil down to vitamins and minerals. If a goat has a proper diet, and is not mineral deficient, they will not GET infections, or heavy worm loads, or a host of other problems. So the main thing we generally address first here (other than in emergency, throw-the-book-at-them, goat-is-near-death situations) is mineral deficiency. Most problems can be prevented with proper maintenance and mineral care.

So the advice we have been giving you is to first address the parasite load (intestinal worms and coccidia) and URI that are draining him, then address his mineral needs to boost his immune system.

~smiles warmly~ SOME things that effect cattle also affect goats, such as coccidia and parasites....but wire isn't one of those things.

Welcome to the board!


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## Manchamom (May 18, 2003)

Here's a pic that shows how to check for anemia. This one has the colors on the chart about right. Excellent FAMACHA score | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Clovers_Clan (Jul 17, 2012)

Personally, I would not feed grain. Whatever the diagnosis, his condition indicates that his digestive tract is screwed up - worms/coccidia. Not to mention dewormers, antibiotics... 

I rehabbed two rescue babies recently, so thin you could SEE the vertebrae in their NECKS! They have done very well on alfalfa pellets/beet pulp (soaked). Gradually I gave them a small amounts of whole oats and Black Oil Sunflower Seed(BOSS is high in copper), that is the only grain they've had and they've recovered completely. Starting out, don't underestimate the power of good browse(not graze, real browse). A variety of fresh green stuff contains the vitamins and minerals they are craving and increases their appetite tremendously. Here is the thread about their journey to recovery:

Before and After Pictures

Rehab after Coccidia

I wish I had a picture of them now, I'm having to cut back on their feed because they are now getting fat!

Good luck on your journey. Learn everything you can in the process. He still may not make it but you will be better prepared for future emergencies. And you will gain priceless knowledge to keep your herd healthy to begin with.


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

Update - 

Stilts and his companion goat stayed in a different shed last night. Yesterday afternoon he was all over the farm browsing, not "well" but acting lifelike. This morning I checked on them and he was cold and stiff. I had calves to bottle feed so I left him to come back and bury him later. (Don't cry yet.)

Angel (his companion) kept going back into the shed, as if she were trying to get him to follow. I went in there and he made a very faint noise. I took him out and covered hi with my jacket. The outlook is not good though.

Temp too low to register on my digital thermometer.
Dilated pupils, unresponsive to movement.
Occasionally he bleats out.
Cannot support himself - even his head while laying down. 
Seems to be in a lot of pain/uncomfortable.
He did urinate on me. 

I have done this:
As much lactated ringers sub-q as I can find loos skin to put it (only about 80 cc.)
2 cc Thiamine
10 Probios (still on his tongue, he hasn't swallowed.)
I tried to orally give electrolytes but he won't swallow.
Saline solution in his eyes (they were dry and it was making my eyes itch, I know - I'm a softy.) 

I also gave 1 cc dexamethasone. I know this can have adverse effects on immune, especially if it is viral. But it did seem to calm/relax/take away his pain some.

Should I tube electrolytes? Is there anything else to do? Is he just waiting to die? Would a vet be able to do anything?


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Warmth. Get him WARM. Put him on a heating pad, wrap him in an electric blanket, put him in a pastic bag with nothing but his head sticking out and put him in a tub of hopt water.

WARMTH...you have to get him WARM!


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Don't put anything in is stomach until yuo get his temperature up! Get him warm, THEN tube electrolytes!


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

And when you get his temp up, make sure the electrolytes are warm also. Heat them to just a bit warmer than body temperature before drenching him.


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

I forgot to mention that. I have been swapping out blankets from him to the dryer to try to warm him up. Looking now for the heating pad! Thanks!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Oh I sure hope he makes it!  sending prayers for Stilts


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

As he is warming up he is becoming much more active. Sat up at first and actually stood for a while. His belly is "working" to a degree - he is burping and tooting a little. Temp is still low - he is in a trash bag bath currently. 

Raising this temp is taking longer than expected - ideas on what to do tonight? We've been getting in the upper 20s the past few nights.


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## finnsheep (May 23, 2012)

Keep him in the house. Especially if he isn't running everywhere, it's probably the best place for him. You can keep an eye on him and take his temp, etc. 

I haven't had this problem with adults, but hypoglycemia can kill faster than hypothermia in lambs. If you try warming "frozen" lambs before giving them glucose, more often than not they will de in a hypoglycemic fit before they are even warm. IP injections of glucose are what's used...I've given oral glucose since I can't (yet) give an IP injection with confidence. (Shame on me, I know). It's probably not applicable to his case anyway.

I hope very much that he pulls through for you!


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Keep him inside, in the warm. Put his doeling friend with others so she can have someone to curl up with.

You can put him in REALLY hot water, like just short of being more than you can bear to put your foot in water, and keep him in there until the water is close to your body temps. It should warm him up.

If he can swallow, you can drench him with WARM electrolytes. Heat it up in the microwave until it is the temp of hot tea that you can drink comfortably, then drench him with it. It will warm him up from the inside as well. Add table sugar to the electrolytes to give him a boost.


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

It won't be the first time with goats in the bathroom. We had a calf live in our bathroom for a few weeks last winter, and actually lost her in the house. Should I bring his buddy in too? She is frantic outside right now, looking for him.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

He has hope, he has a chance. You may be pretty sleepless tonight, but he CAN be saved. He isn't lost until he is completely and utterly dead, dead, dead, with two stages of rigor already. It may be a tough 24 hours ahead, but keep at it. 

Get him warm and keep him warm. Oh, and definitely a shot of antibiotics. He needs to be put on a 5 day program of antibiotic to kill whatever is getting him down.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

If you don't mind her in there with him, she can come in.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

How old do you think he is? I'm pondering for you, and my thought is that if he is less that 6 or 7 months old, you could bottle feed him warm (nearly hot) whole cow milk to get some food in his system. 

I've saved a lot of kids by making sure they spent the night with a belly full of warm milk.


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

CaliannG - my thoughts exactly! As long as there is a pulse or a breat I'm not giving up! Sleepless nights are a part of what I chose to do. 

Going by the size of his frame I would put him about 7 months +/- a bit. I have tried to give him a bottle in the past (remember, he was in real bad shape when I got him at the sale barn), but he didn't take to it and since he WAS eating at the time I didn't push the issue. Since he is warmer now, but still well below where he should be at 96, is it too early to get something in his stomach? 

What kind of antibiotics would you suggest? We have Nuflor, LA200 and Tylan on hand. And dosage?


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

At his temp, the only thing you can get into his stomach is WARM (110 + degrees) electrolytes with some kind of sugar. Glucose if you have it, is best. But table sugar, corn syrup, molasses, anything really sweet, if you don't.

Hold on, I'm looking up my dosages for Nuflor, which will be the strongest thing to give him.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Give him 3 cc once per day, for 5 days. Best to give it SQ. If you give it I.M., do it in the neck.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Also, I am sending you a P.M. with my phone number, should you need it. ~smiles~ I am refreshing this page every 2 minutes, and I need to cook dinner.


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

You are the best! I stink at giving SQ shots, but with him there's not a lot of M to IM. Actually kinda funny how things happen - I had never heard of SQ Lac Ringers until yesterday. I have done IV saline bags in cattle before but had never heard of doing it SQ. We currently have 4 bottle calves as well right now and last night I was at last resort for one and tried to SQ with the saline. Gave him 500cc and this morning he was looking better, after several more liters orally he is looking good! Still have a long way to go with him too though. Then today I did the same thing with Stilts. It's amazing how much you learn when your critters are sick!!

Anyway - Stilts just took 12oz electrolytes with corn syrup. Gonna check on the calf and then try to give him more.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Once you get back, do you have CMPK oral solution on hand? Lots of folks keep it for cattle. If you do, you can add a half a cup to Stilt's electrolyte/corn syrup solution.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Once you get him up and moving, and eating, you'll need to give him probiotics every day too, since he is so thin. The antibiotics will also kill all of the bacteria in his gut (the good ones) that he uses to digest food, as well as killing off the bad ones that are making him sick. The probiotics will replace the stuff that gets killed. If you give him his antibiotic shot at night, give him the probiotics in the morning, or vice versa. 

Not something you need to worry about right away, but something to keep in mind as he is recovering.

Has that dang gel made it there yet??? ~grumbles and smiles to show she is teasing~


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

No  no CMPK on hand. How much electrolyte should I give him? Probably a lot more than I think I need to I imagine. 

Good call on the probios. I was concerned though, will the antibiotics kill them as fast as I put them in? 

And no, the gel is not here (grumble, grumble)


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## BethW (May 3, 2007)

Oh, I'm pulling so hard for him (and for you)!


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Are you drenching him or is he drinking it? If he is drinking it, as much as he wants. If you are drenching it, try to get 10-20 ounces down him every 2 hours.

Has he tried to pee again yet? How is his temp? You can keep changing the water to keep it hot until you get his temp up.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

If the antibiotics are strong enough to kill the bad bugs, they are strong enough to kill the good ones. The daily dose of probiotics, given 12 hours before or after the antibiotics, though, should keep him good. Keep giving them for 2 days after you have finished the antibiotic run, though.

For tomorrow: When was the last time he had a coccidiastat? I don't remember now, if it is in the other thread. Also, did you get him wormed? With what, how much, and when?

Tonight we fight for his life....tomorrow we access and fight that which is trying to take it.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Ph, and a list of what you have on hand in wormers, coccidiastats, injectable vitamins, etc. We'll see how much we can do with what you have on hand, and whether or not a vet needs to be begged for something else.


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

I'm sending healing vibes your way. I hope he makes it.


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

You are a champ! Thanks so much. 

Answers:
I am syringing into his mouth, but he is swallowing it on his own.
I have not given him a cocci treatment. I have Corid on hand
I have safeguard pellets, morantel tartrate pellets. I also have ivermectin 1.87 (for horses but vet said to give him 2cc per 100#, I gave him 1cc yesterday.) 
You know my antibiotics on hand and I have Thiamine Chloride, B-complex, A&D and BoSe and iron. 
I also have fresh start, lamb/kid paste, colostrum, toxin binder and nutri-drench


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

Oh, and temp is up to 99 now


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Okay, tomorrow, another 1cc dose of the Ivomectin paste.

I do not know your financial situation, but if at all possible, call your vet tomorrow morning and ask for:

5cc Baycox (Toltrazuril) if s/he has it on hand. That is your best bet. If s/he doesn't have it on hand, ask your vet for a TREATMENT plan, *not* a *preventative plan, but TREATMENT, for coccidia using the Corid.

Ask for Mineral Max injectable vitamin/mineral supplement (this is labelled for cattle), a dose for 50#. (Getting one dose shots should not be very expensive) That should hold you over until the gel gets there, and should address possible issues with barberpole worms. (treated with copper)

Tonight, at the next drenching, SQ shots (do your best) of both B-Complex and the Thiamine, dosage as per label by weight. Tomorrow morning, do the A&D.

Have you checked his eyelids via the FAMANCHA chart linked above? If they are pale according to the chart, also give iron.

That is what I can think of right now.

ETA: I really, really wish I could teleport myself and my goat medicine kit to you right now!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I did a 6 day Nuflor with Gretta recently. It stings! With her it was a few seconds after I administered it. I did it in the arm pit area sub Q. 3 cc's a day. I also gave her 5 grams of Probios a day and continued that for a week after the Nuflor was done. Now I'm giving her probios just a couple times a week.


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## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

Everyone has given great replies. I strongly urge you though if you can have a fecal done on him. It could help you a lot with knowing what is going on with him. Good job on getting his temp coming back up though :goodjob:. I am praying for you guys that he makes a full recovery.

Oh and for the CMPK gel I believe there are recipes online to actually make your own CMPK. Yep I found the recipe here Hypocalcemia - CMPK Kitchen Recipe - Dairy Goat Care and Management .

Stilts I am pulling for you buddy! Hang in there .

Justine

**edited to add**
For Sub-Q shots something a friend taught me which helps is bending the animal's body gently to make a U and on the inside you should be able to get more pliable skin. I hope that makes sense, I have used the way my friend taught me on newborns and dehydrated goats and it does help.


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## ani's ark (May 12, 2012)

Praying for Stilts to get well. He sure is a cutie from the pic. Good on you for going all out to save him, and Caliann for staying 'right there beside' you.


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

This is Kayann, Nod is sound a sleep but I did check his temp and we are 104.00 and he is breathing heavier and making a few sounds, I have been syringing him some electrolytes and was reading something awhile ago about Diatamaceous Earth.. It has a lot of the minerals that we are discussing him being deficient in... Is that something that I might go ahead and put in one of his syringes of electrolytes?? Mine is food safe...


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## Clovers_Clan (Jul 17, 2012)

Kayann- Here is a trustworthy website I use a lot. Scroll down to the bottom re: Diatomaceous Earth. There doesn't seem to be a consensus that it even works, but there are a couple of precautions if you do try it. 

1) It is dangerous to breathe the dust, and if Stilts has pneumonia that would definitely be a concern.

2) The DE used in swimming pools is especially harmful to breathe. Food grade is recommended.

Fias Co Farm: Goat Wormers, chemical and herbal wormer information

In the state that he is in, absorbing all the vitamins and minerals he needs is going to be tough. If you can get the vitamins(Bs) in him by injection/orally for now, thats doing good. The minerals will come more gradually. Products like the Replamin do the best job of delivery, because it is balanced and makes everything accessible for uptake.

If you don't have Replamin or similar on hand, I would recommend just crushing up a complete multivitamin(for humans) mixing it with plain yogurt and drenching him. You can do this a couple of times a day. The vitamin/mineral content in those is fairly similar to the supplements. Multivitamins are water soluble, so it would be hard to overdose, excess will flush out of their system. His system is not going to be soaking it up well to begin with. I have tried this with my rescues, with good results. From my experience with my sick goats, they need the vitamins, especially the Bs, to repair cells. It is not until the cells in their intestine are functioning well enough that they again start utilizing the minerals well. They will be anemic for a while, they will be copper deficient for a while. It is a very gradually thing. The mineral deficiencies will be the very last thing to recover.

Right now he is clinging to life: Keep him hydrated, temperature under control, stop the invaders(worms, coccidia, bad bacteria), keep electrolytes in balance. Think of it this way, his digestive tract is temporarily out of commission, you are basically feeding him cellularly with the ringers, glucose and B injections. (The probiotics are keeping his digestive tract stable, any little bit of absorption his intestines can handle is a plus). Getting him eating again will be gradual. It will take a lot of time before his digestive tract is back in order.

He seems to be a fighter that will help.


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## Clovers_Clan (Jul 17, 2012)

Kayann-

I know you have him on antibiotics already. The heavy breathing sounds like pneumonia. We're pulling for you.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Got on this thread first thing after milking and morning feed. So glad Stilts made it through the night! So glad his temp is up! 

I agree 100% with Clovers_Clan on syringing him with with a crushed multivitamin and yogurt. Dilute the yogurt a bit with water so that it goes down easy.

Some info: DE and other natural remedies are good for *maintenance*. DE has a lot of good stuff in it, but right now his digestive tract isn't up to extracting the good stuff and using it. Stilts is in an extreme situation, and needs extreme measures, which is why he is getting turned into a pin cushion with injections, and is having stuff syringed down him.

It is comparable to taking garlic and cayenne to maintain healthy heart function. They are great for helping to build and keep your heart strong, but if you are in the middle of cardiac arrest, you don't go to your kitchen and consume a whole bottle each of powdered garlic and cayenne; you go to the hospital and get pumped with drugs and have a team standing by with a defibrillator. You stay there a few days while they get you stable, give you more drugs and stuff, and monitor you until they are fairly sure that if you go home, you aren't going to go into cardiac arrest again.

When you get home, THEN you down bottles of garlic and cayenne. 

Stilts is still in the "hospital". He will likely be there for a few more days, and the poor baby is getting used to being a pin cushion as we try to save him. Which reminds me, have ya'll gotten to call the vet yet about the Baycox and Mineral Max?

Keep the DE in mind, as well as other natural remedies and things you come across. You may wish to include them in your management practices later on. For right now, though, Stilts needs the big guns.


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

Sad news. Stilts lost his battle this morning. (and yes, I'm sure this time) Thanks to everyone who helped and sent prayers and good wishes, and Caliann especially for her dedication and standing by my side. 

I have a soft spot for poor, mistreated and unwanted critters - that's why I took on these little guys from the sale barn after we had agreed to only bring in quality animals to our herd. When not one person in the auction house would even bid a single dollar for Stilts I bid. I believe that every life has purpose or value - not money based value, and even though I raise critters destined to be butchered - everything deserves to be raised and treated with care and respect. Stilt's purpose was to teach me some of the poor management practices I have been doing with my goats (and he made me smile a few times too.) That's quite a bit of value that I got for my $1 investment that no one else wanted. RIP little buddy.


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## Clovers_Clan (Jul 17, 2012)

Kudos to you for giving him a fighting chance. 

Life is never about the destination, its the journey.


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## Squeaky McMurdo (Apr 19, 2012)

Sorry for your loss


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Oh, I am so sorry! :Bawling: I had such high hopes he would make it!

RIP little Stilts!


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

I"m so sorry. We know you did everything you could for him.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I'm so sorry for your loss. Rest in peace Stilts


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## Strange Bear (May 13, 2002)

Good for you for trying at least. Poor baby.


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## BethW (May 3, 2007)

Oh, I'm so sorry. At least for the last part of his life Stilts knew compassion and a caring family. That counts for something. Actually, it counts for a lot~


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

Aww I'm sorry. I was pulling for him, and rest assure you did everything you could of.


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## ani's ark (May 12, 2012)

It's great there are people like you and our online friends to take these animals on. But what to do with the people who let their animals get to this stage, so the animals and the ones who try to save them suffer heartbreak? It is so unnecessary and cruel. I hope karma gets them. Dont mean to sound bitter and angry, but it burns my britches. 

In the States are you able to follow up via the sale barn as to how these goats got in this state and get their owner cautioned?


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

It's rather difficult, Ani. If your neighbors are neglecting their animals, you can call and report animal abuse.

Not so much with the sale barn. I don't know why, as I have seen some pretty rough animals go through there, especially during the drought, but if a sick, lame, or emaciated critter goes through the sale barn, no one says a word.

I guess they figure that everything is just going to the slaughter house anyway. The only animals that might be bought for breeding stock at the sale barn are cattle.


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## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

Oh no I am so sorry . I have been sick with the stomach flu and I just was able to get on and see how he was doing. Thank you for giving him a fighting chance at life though. I am so glad he was able to be in a home where he was loved and cared for until the very end.

Gosh now I am tearing up . Rest in peace Stilts :Bawling:.

Justine


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## nod4eight (Oct 4, 2012)

He's one of those that fought and fought, giving me every chance.. I wish I could give his fight to half my sick critters!


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