# Wind power fails in Texas



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Rolling blackouts affecting the whole state as ice storm shuts down half of Texas' wind turbines.

Icy weather chills Texas wind energy as deep freeze grips much of U.S. | Reuters


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

My husband, who retired from the oilfield, figured this would happen.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Germany is having blackouts too. Their solar is covered in snow and the wind turbines are covered in ice.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Go green they said.

It'll be fun they said.

What could possibly go wrong they said.

I wish everyone affected good luck!!!


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

poppy said:


> Rolling blackouts affecting the whole state as ice storm shuts down half of Texas' wind turbines.
> 
> Icy weather chills Texas wind energy as deep freeze grips much of U.S. | Reuters


Even mother nature is against "green".


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

A guy in Texas posted a note in another forum saying that he knew of 3 coal fired generating plants near him that have been shuttered lately. One was within sight of his house.

And his power is off.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

TPTB have our welfare as their main concern. They just don't want people dying of heat stroke this time of year.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

NRA_guy said:


> A guy in Texas posted a note in another forum saying that he knew of 3 coal fired generating plants near him that have been shuttered lately. One was within sight of his house.
> 
> And his power is off.


Bet that just pisses him off.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Nuclear is the way to go.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

kinderfeld said:


> Nuclear is the way to go.


Before Fukushima I agreed with you. Not so much anymore. Natural gas is the way currently. Until new technology comes along.


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## Bront (Jan 26, 2021)

poppy said:


> Rolling blackouts affecting the whole state as ice storm shuts down half of Texas' wind turbines.
> 
> Icy weather chills Texas wind energy as deep freeze grips much of U.S. | Reuters



Huh, no problems in Kansas that I've heard of..Maybe texas forgot to check the antifreeze..😬


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Maybe the folks advocating wind and solar failed to take weather into account.


“Extreme cold weather and snow are rare in Texas, and the National Weather Service in the state, based in Midland, tweeted early Monday that it recorded a temperature of minus 2 degrees Fahrenheit, the coldest temperature in the region in 32 years.

All 254 Texas counties were under winter weather advisories as of Sunday night.”


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

poppy said:


> Rolling blackouts affecting the whole state as ice storm shuts down half of Texas' wind turbines.
> 
> Icy weather chills Texas wind energy as deep freeze grips much of U.S. | Reuters


Perhaps


Alice In TX/MO said:


> Maybe the folks advocating wind and solar failed to take weather into account.





NRA_guy said:


> A guy in Texas posted a note in another forum saying that he knew of 3 coal fired generating plants near him that have been shuttered lately. One was within sight of his house.
> 
> And his power is off.





georger said:


> Even mother nature is against "green".


If Norway, Canada, and Iceland can have wind power it seems like there must be more to the story of this noted failure in Texas....


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Yup. Arrogance and assumptions. 

Designs that don’t take extremes into account. 

Such is life.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

fireweed farm said:


> Perhaps
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have never lived north of Kentucky. Do Canada, Norway and Iceland have these types of ice storms? Or is it usually rain and snow.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

Bront said:


> Huh, no problems in Kansas that I've heard of..Maybe texas forgot to check the antifreeze..😬





Evergy restores power to 60,000 customers, calls to conserve energy continue



If you are serviced by the wrong power co, you had problems in Kansas too.

the big problem for all of us is what this mess will cost us. Without the backup of real power generation, peak demand costs for the ‘extra’ electricity is astronomical.

the ripple effect on our electric bills will be terrible. Electric power is becoming unreliable in this country. What a major step backwards. Why do we want to be a failure?

we need electric power that we can turn on when it is needed. The ‘green’ sources are -not- going to work, as today is proving. They make a nice supplement, maybe upto 1/3. But they are not nearly reliable enough to be the backbone themselves.

natrual gas was supposed to be the short term solution. Today we see it is part of the problem. There is a shortage of natural gas, because we don’t have enough pipelines to get it from where it comes out of the ground, to where we use it.

as well, most natural gas is a byproduct of drilling for petroleum. That is why we have a lot, and it is cheap. If we follow the ‘green’ plan of not looking for or using petroleum, and not building pipelines, then natural gas will dwindle and disappear.

idiots.

Paul


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

nchobbyfarm said:


> I have never lived north of Kentucky. Do Canada, Norway and Iceland have these types of ice storms? Or is it usually rain and snow.


I can’t speak for Iceland or Norway, but Canada certainly does.
Whether you have hydro electricity, coal, nuclear, wind or whatever, frozen trees collapsing on power lines will cause an outage.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

fireweed farm said:


> Perhaps
> If Norway, Canada, and Iceland can have wind power it seems like there must be more to the story of this noted failure in Texas....


Snow in warmer climates is heavier than snow in colder climates as shown in the attached. That heavy snow creates a ton of problems with trees, power lines, and roads.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

nchobbyfarm said:


> Before Fukushima I agreed with you. Not so much anymore. Natural gas is the way currently. Until new technology comes along.


We haven't heard much about Fukishima in a long time. That's because the "disaster" did no long term damage...The only human deaths that resulted were not due to the radiation problem but were all caused by the chaotic and unnecessary evacuation plan forced upon the population by the govt.

Nuclear power generation has been around for 70 yrs now and there has been only one "disaster"-- Chernobyl-- and that was caused by sheer stupidity of the engineers conducting an unneeded test.

No comparison. Nothing comes close to nuclear power generation for safety & environmental friendliness.



fireweed farm said:


> If Norway, Canada, and Iceland can have wind power it seems like there must be more to the story of this noted failure in Texas....


Those countries are small, with different life-styles and demand for energy than TX. They put up with more deprivation in terms of energy usage and are more heavily interconnected with alternative power sources than TX.

Compare alternative power production with adequate back -up to the well meaning but stupid Yuppy who wants to limit his Carbon Footprint by riding a bicycle, but for back-up, he buys a car and lets it sit in the garage, always running at slow idle, just for the two days a year that he needs to use it.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

I just "love" (sarcasm) posts like this. It's a function of design parameters, not one energy source vs another. There are also oil and gas platforms frozen up in TX as well as refineries having problems. They don't design for cold weather functionality down there because it is such an infrequent event. Up here in Ohio we have wind turbines chugging along without any problems despite temps colder than TX. Off in the distance I can hear the hum of Garner and Putnam well pads (each pad has 12 wells). I know some folks want to push their favorite agenda but the bottom line is that societal infrastructure works until it doesn't. What have you done to prepare yourself for such events?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Mike in Ohio is right. Be like Mike.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I like Mike


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yes, just because the Texas turbines are designed for the norm and not the unusual weather events, blaming everything on green power is not going to negate that green power is the way to go for the future of the planet.

Bumps in the road will just make it better in the end.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

rambler said:


> Evergy restores power to 60,000 customers, calls to conserve energy continue
> 
> 
> Electric power is becoming unreliable in this country. What a major step backwards. Why do we want to be a failure?
> ...


I'll take, "Never let a crisis go to waste" for 100, Alex.

First you create a crisis, then you implement government programs that shift money from workers to bureaucrats, and that also constrain our Constitutional rights,

After a few years, the people accept it and forget how it was ever any different. 

Then you create (or take advantage of) another crisis and repeat.


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## Bront (Jan 26, 2021)

Windpower is here to stay. I imagine its hard to justify the "weatherizing" costs for turbines in the southern areas.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

fireweed farm said:


> Perhaps
> 
> 
> 
> ...


About 25 years ago, we had a major ice storm in Quebec that shut down the grid. It wasn't the source of generation that was the problem, it was the transmission lines. They got so coated in ice, and consequently so heavy, that the towers were collapsing all over the place. Took weeks to get everything back to normal.

At the time, I was talking to a Hydro guy here in MB. He said that would not have posed the same problem in Manitoba, as the hydro system here was build to carry excess electric charge. In other words, the could run so much juice through the lines, they would heat up and de-ice during such a storm. If true, that speaks to how the transmission system was designed, and not every set of engineers are equal (even here in Canada).


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

https://oppdthewire.com/ice-power-lines-oppd/#:~:text=New%20OPPD%20transmission%20lines%20are,EF1%20tornado)%20with%20no%20ice


.

"*Designing for bad weather*
OPPD uses guidelines in the National Electrical Safety Code (NESC) and various weather condition scenarios to determine the design criteria for ice load on overhead power lines.

Distribution lines are designed to handle up to 1/2-inch of ice and 40-mph winds. New OPPD transmission lines are designed to handle 1 1/4 inches of ice with no wind, or winds of up to 90 miles-per-hour (equivalent to a weak EF1 tornado) with no ice."

Money! The cheapest alternative is almost always what is built. If a flood only happens every 200 years or a snow event is just not a normal occurrence, the cheapest alternative is the choice.
We don't add more insulation to our homes or choose to add solar panels for that very reason.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

painterswife said:


> https://oppdthewire.com/ice-power-lines-oppd/#:~:text=New%20OPPD%20transmission%20lines%20are,EF1%20tornado)%20with%20no%20ice
> 
> 
> .
> ...


Agree. Being in construction this happens every time for nearly every client. The billionaires are the only ones to go the distance. Even then they will save money on stupid stuff and spend on even more stupid stuff.

Did a job once for one. They had these soap dishes that were 300 dollars apiece. I found the exact same model number and maker at Walmart for 10 bucks. When I told him he refused to buy at Walmart but bought then from Restoration hardware instead. 5 bathrooms with 3 soap dishes each.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> Agree. Being in construction this happens every time for nearly every client. The billionaires are the only ones to go the distance. Even then they will save money on stupid stuff and spend on even more stupid stuff.
> 
> Did a job once for one. They had these soap dishes that were 300 dollars apiece. I found the exact same model number and maker at Walmart for 10 bucks. When I told him he refused to buy at Walmart but bought then from Restoration hardware instead. 5 bathrooms with 3 soap dishes each.


Our company is about to do a remodel on a kitchen in a house we built 15 years ago. That is just the kitchen. The remodel is going to cost 900,000.00 and that does not include any appliances.  I know all about that type of client.


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Good going Mike!

This is a weather event, not due to green power. The wells and lines are freezing off in West Texas leaving much of Missouri with reduced ability to produce electricity. Fossil fuel is not the savior of the world here, it is just plain unusually cold and snowy.

The oil company dh retired from is now an energy company. Still producing oil and gas and will continue to meet needs, but also moving to wind, solar, and wave energy. Its the future. Folks crabbed when mommas stopped cooking breakfast on coal stoves in England until they realized how nice it is to breathe


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

The Paw said:


> About 25 years ago, we had a major ice storm in Quebec that shut down the grid. It wasn't the source of generation that was the problem, it was the transmission lines. They got so coated in ice, and consequently so heavy, that the towers were collapsing all over the place. Took weeks to get everything back to normal.
> 
> At the time, I was talking to a Hydro guy here in MB. He said that would not have posed the same problem in Manitoba, as the hydro system here was build to carry excess electric charge. In other words, the could run so much juice through the lines, they would heat up and de-ice during such a storm. If true, that speaks to how the transmission system was designed, and not every set of engineers are equal (even here in Canada).


I remember watching that ice storm unfold on the news.
A woman somewhere in Quebec being interviewed in her house (in front of a wood stove) with her sad tale of no electricity and no running water. I was yelling at the tv to melt snow in a pot on the damn wood stove but don’t think she heard me


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Yes, just because the Texas turbines are designed for the norm and not the unusual weather events, blaming everything on green power is not going to negate that green power is the way to go for the future of the planet.
> 
> Bumps in the road will just make it better in the end.


You guys just don't get it...One more time--

Let's say we do away with all fossil fuel powered plants-- only wind mills & solar installations...We can all agree the sun doesn't always shine everywhere nor does the wind always blow....With me so far?

OK...So what we'd have to do is put an extra solar plant in, say AZ, for when the sun isn't shining in, say CT....But it takes extra power to get the power from AZ to CT, so we really have to put two extra installations in AZ to make up for each one in CT on down time....etc etc.

As I said before, as demand goes up arithmetically, the capacity has to go up geometrically. The engineers tell us we'd need 6-10x more total generating capacity with wind/solar than demand around the country to make it a reliable source....Right now, wind/solar generation supplies less than 10% of our demand, and we still have brown outs and black outs.

To make this cry for "more alternative energy" even more stupid is that there is NOTHING wrong with fossil fuels. "co2" has virtually NOTHING to do with our climate or weather...In fact, we need MORE co2 to keep our planet even greener. (Read the comments in the article I just posted above explaining how our climate is modulated almost exclusively by sea water & ice. It has nothing to do with "GHGs.")


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Who here said we would do away with all the fossil fuel plants anytime soon? Maybe you are making assumptions. It is a process towards reducing the use of fossil fuels. the technology may not be perfect now but they are working on it.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

The Paw said:


> ...At the time, I was talking to a Hydro guy here in MB. He said that would not have posed the same problem in Manitoba, as the hydro system here was build to carry excess electric charge. In other words, the could run so much juice through the lines, they would heat up and de-ice during such a storm. If true, that speaks to how the transmission system was designed, and not every set of engineers are equal (even here in Canada).


Unfortunately, it doesn’t work like that... even for Canadian engineers.

If a leg of a grid is configured in such a way that the current passing through it can heat the lines, that’s a flaw, not a feature, and you can’t just “crank up” the current coming out of a power plant. Something has to be on the other side to “draw” it out.

It wouldn’t be unusual for a power plant to be capable of producing more power than its lines could handle, but there are safety measures on both ends of the leg to keep more energy than should from going through the line- like the breakers or fuses in your home panel.

Even if the safety measures were intentionally bypassed, there would have to be something on the other end to draw through that extra current. Just like, if your stove top normally draws 30 amps, jumpering around the breaker would not make it draw extra current. If the grid’s needs are such that its normal draw is capable of heating the lines, the lines are too small, and waste energy (via heat) the rest of the time.

There are ways to engineer above-ground lines to self-thaw, but it would require extra equipment designed in specifically for that purpose. If you wanted to do it via over-current, and not waste energy the rest of the time, you’d have to build your grid in parallel-duplicate, and selectively limit one line while raising the limit by the same amount on the other line, causing the raised line to temporarily carry more current than it should.

Either way, self-thawing lines would be expensive, and something that had to be designed in, making the price to the customer that much higher, something a power company in Texas is less likely to justify than one in Manitoba.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

fireweed farm said:


> I remember watching that ice storm unfold on the news.
> A woman somewhere in Quebec being interviewed in her house (in front of a wood stove) with her sad tale of no electricity and no running water. I was yelling at the tv to melt snow in a pot on the damn wood stove but don’t think she heard me


A power outage caused a great deal of problems for me at -48 C and I really can't comprehend how some people simply sit and wring their hands. 

It took close to 2 days in that kind of weather to thaw out the well house, warm up water and septic lines but soon as cold water was restored, life runs fairly well. 

My gas stove is pretty close to being classified as an antique and I still prefer to repair rather than replace. It's old enough that I can manually light it and we stayed relatively warm, I boiled quite of snow for the first day. 

Hopefully, we can restore the hot water tomorrow but until then, the house is functioning just fine.


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## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

fireweed farm said:


> Perhaps
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am in Nova Scotia where it hasn't been very cold the past few years. But we used to have a lot of snow and always have wind. But the turbines here are a different design than where you and built to withstand Canadian weather.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Unfortunately, it doesn’t work like that... even for Canadian engineers.
> 
> If a leg of a grid is configured in such a way that the current passing through it can heat the lines, that’s a flaw, not a feature, and you can’t just “crank up” the current coming out of a power plant. Something has to be on the other side to “draw” it out.
> 
> ...



Here's an article on the ice-melting techniques used by MB Hydro. It isn't used all that often in MB, and I can't imagine it would be needed very often at all in Texas. I can't speak to how much the added cost would be, but your average Texas power company would probably have a difficult time justifying any additional expense, given how seldom it would be used.





__





StackPath






www.tdworld.com


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

painterswife said:


> Yes, just because the Texas turbines are designed for the norm and not the unusual weather events, blaming everything on green power is not going to negate that green power is the way to go for the future of the planet.
> 
> Bumps in the road will just make it better in the end.


the problem is we are decommissioning what was a good,stable, working electrical production system without having a good replacement for it.

we are replacing it with clearly unproven and faulty systems.

And we are replacing liquid fuels with millions of high energy electric cars at the same time. To drastically increase the demands on the system.

this will only get worse.

and worse.

it is poorly implemented by idiots who just want to hug a tree and have no understanding of what they are doing.

the windmills and solar panels work the poorest exactly when they are most needed.

the electric grid has not been upgraded to handle shuffling megawatts of juice across the continent.

We are replacing one of the most stable power producing grids wIth utter crap.

windmills and solar cells could be 30-40% of a very good system. ‘Could be.’

but total fools are simply turning off the power generating facilities, they are allowing the grid to disinigrate, and paying 30-100% of the cost of unstable energy facilities that are notmeeting our present needs, much less future needs.

and you are cheering that on?

there is nothing good here, there is nothing to be happy about.

it is foolishness. It is chaos. It is evil.

Paul


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

rambler said:


> the problem is we are decommissioning what was a good,stable, working electrical production system without having a good replacement for it.
> 
> we are replacing it with clearly unproven and faulty systems.
> 
> ...


I disagree with most of what you posted. They are not unproven and faulty systems. That basic premise illustrates how wrong your post is.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Lots of folks know bits and pieces of a complex issue.

It reminds me of the parable of the blind men and the elephant.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

It all my be a moot point if china withholds the rare earth metals.









China’s Rare Earths ‘Slump’ A Sign Of Domestic ‘Hoarding’ For EV Batteries, And More


Is China about to send the cost of EV batteries to the moon?




www.forbes.com




"China’s rare earth exports fell to 35,448 tons last year from 46,330 tonnes in 2019, customs data showed on Thursday. China blamed the pandemic for weak demand. The 2020 exports were the lowest since 2015, according to Reuters.

But there may be more to it than the pandemic. For those China watchers, and competitors, looking for tears in the fabric, the slump has a little less to do with the pandemic than Beijing may be letting on.
"


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

The Paw said:


> About 25 years ago, we had a major ice storm in Quebec that shut down the grid. It wasn't the source of generation that was the problem, it was the transmission lines. They got so coated in ice, and consequently so heavy, that the towers were collapsing all over the place. Took weeks to get everything back to normal.
> 
> At the time, I was talking to a Hydro guy here in MB. He said that would not have posed the same problem in Manitoba, as the hydro system here was build to carry excess electric charge. In other words, the could run so much juice through the lines, they would heat up and de-ice during such a storm. If true, that speaks to how the transmission system was designed, and not every set of engineers are equal (even here in Canada).


In 1998, I remember it well as it also happened in New England. We had no power for 11 days and it was 'old fashioned' lines and wires. No system is perfect, especial once (ish) in a lifetime.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

rambler said:


> natrual gas was supposed to be the short term solution. Today we see it is part of the problem. There is a shortage of natural gas, because we don’t have enough pipelines to get it from where it comes out of the ground, to where we use it.
> 
> as well, most natural gas is a byproduct of drilling for petroleum. That is why we have a lot, and it is cheap. If we follow the ‘green’ plan of not looking for or using petroleum, and not building pipelines, then natural gas will dwindle and disappear.
> 
> Paul


Not quite sure where you live Paul, but here in Pennsylvania (and West Virginia and some other states) they actually drill natural gas wells. The oil that comes from some of it is a byproduct. 

Natural gas was big business some 20 years ago. Gas companies were contacting any landowner with acreage as they wanted the landowner to sign up with them to have natural gas wells drilled. The gas companies were all over our area - and you see gas wells all over - (well . . . . you actually see the water / brine tank first) before you actually see the gas well. At the time these companies were drilling the shallow wells - and natural gas prices were high. The landowners loved the monthly royalty checks coming in.

The gas companies then discovered there was natural gas even deeper in the Marcellus shale formations. It took much larger drills and much larger land pads to drill into the deep gas. Once they started that drilling - they quickly discovered they could get a lot more gas out of each well - if they drilled several holes in different angles. (Instead of one hole straight down - they drilled one straight down and several angled away from the straight down hole.)

The Marcellus shale was a huge find - and the more Marcellus wells they drilled, they each produced so much more than the shallow wells they used to drill. However, they have now drilled so many wells, that natural gas prices have dropped low - they almost have more natural gas than they know what to do with.

The main problem is these large Marcellus wells need pipelines to carry the gas away - and nobody wants a large pipeline over their property. The nature people certainly don't - and are stopping anymore gas lines from being built.

We have hundreds of years of natural gas left to use. But natural gas is a fossil fuel that "pollutes" the environment. Thus the reason why wind and solar are the "answers".

But it's going to take more than wind and solar to heat your house and produce electricity.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Michael is absolutely correct.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Michael is absolutely correct.


Yes he is. And natural gas is very clean burning. We have the Shelby aquifer near me that was even largest than that one. Now they have even bigger ones that that.

All capped.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Dupe


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

painterswife said:


> I disagree with most of what you posted. They are not unproven and faulty systems. That basic premise illustrates how wrong your post is.


a) No...They are very faulty and certainly unproven....Even worse is the general problem of switching to the smart grid necessary to include extensive reliance on al. prod methods( ie- wind& solar). Please educate yourself on the problems & failures in Germany as they are trying to do it for the last decade or so.

2] Please educate US on why you think we "need" to switch to more alt energy production.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

So unproven that Texas uses more wind energy than coal energy. No need to go further.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"He went on to note the shutdown of a nuclear reactor in Bay City because of the cold, and finally got to what energy experts say is the biggest culprit, “Low Supply of Natural Gas: ERCOT planned on 67GW from natural gas/coal, but could only get 43GW of it online. We didn’t run out of natural gas, but we ran out of the ability to get natural gas. Pipelines in Texas don’t use cold insulation —so things were freezing.”









No, frozen wind turbines aren’t the main culprit for Texas’ power outages


Lost wind power was expected to be a fraction of winter generation. All sources — from natural gas, to nuclear, to coal, to solar — have struggled to generate power during the storm that has left millions of Texans in the dark.




www.texastribune.org





Looks like Texas just doesn't plan for cold weather period.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Duplicate


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

We are shifting power sources. End of story. It is kickback time in DC. Nothing is more powerful than that. Oil, coal, wind or solar. Kick back time wins out every time.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

The Paw said:


> Here's an article on the ice-melting techniques used by MB Hydro. It isn't used all that often in MB, and I can't imagine it would be needed very often at all in Texas. I can't speak to how much the added cost would be, but your average Texas power company would probably have a difficult time justifying any additional expense, given how seldom it would be used.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was my point. It’s not a matter of your grid being built so robust that the power plant can just push more power through the lines and heat them. Your power company had to build in specialized equipment to route more current draw trough a line than it normally would, creating a temporary over-current situation. 

If I understood the article correctly, their method is to cut distribution from the line, bypass the over-current protection, and short circuit the line, dumping energy to ground until the ice melts off. It also read like some distribution points have redundant current limiters, so they can run the short-circuit procedure without interrupting distribution.

It sounds like a cool system, but, as you said, probably not an expense that the Texas power companies want to put on their customers.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Texas has NEVER used much coal. Why? There aren’t very many coal mines here. We have abundant petroleum 

Ya’ll might want to stop slinging words at each other. We all know puzzle pieces of the situation, but not the whole picture.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> We are shift power sources. End of story. It is kickback time in DC. Nothing is more powerful than that. Oil, coal, wind or solar. Kick back time wins out every time.


I eagerly await the shift in power sources. Carbon energy is dirty. Nuclear is dirty. The debate about global-climate-cooling-change is obviously not settled, but I think it’s very difficult to argue that our current energy system is helping the planet.

The problem, in my opinion, is trying to force through changes, regardless the motivation. Green Peace didn’t save the whales. The Standard Oil Company did. Someone is going to come up with a better solution, and it’s going to be the result of the drive of their own self-benefit. Forcing an answer is only going to provide flawed solutions that come to being out of an attempt to short-cut the system and get those subsidy dollars.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Texas Power Generation: Did Coal Get Blown Away By Wind?


Wind energy is up in Texas, just as coal-fired electricity generation is down. But the truth about the changing energy mix – and the state’s likely future portfolio – is more complicated, dependent on capacity, the expansion of utility-scale solar and the availability of affordable energy storage.




www.forbes.com















32 Percent is quite significant.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Ask yourself why.


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## Drizler (Jun 16, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Germany is having blackouts too. Their solar is covered in snow and the wind turbines are covered in ice.


i just heard yesterday that Germany’s primary source of power right now is coal.


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## reneedarley (Jun 11, 2014)

nchobbyfarm said:


> I have never lived north of Kentucky. Do Canada, Norway and Iceland have these types of ice storms? Or is it usually rain and snow.


We, in Northern Sweden, have ice storms and have had four feet of snow on the ground for a couple of months. Our wind turbines and solar (They get cleared of snow) are doing just fine.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Drizler said:


> i just heard yesterday that Germany’s primary source of power right now is coal.


That information is incorrect.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Drizler said:


> i just heard yesterday that Germany’s primary source of power right now is coal.


I heard people believe what they want to believe regardless of facts. It is called confirmation bias










Most electricity in Germany comes from renewable sources


Renewable sources of energy have for the first time generated more electricity in Germany than coal and nuclear power combined, according to new figures.




www.power-technology.com





Renewable sources generated 47.3% of Germany’s electricity in the first half of 2019, while 43.4% came from coal and nuclear energy in this period, according to a report published by the Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems (ISE) in July.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Drizler said:


> i just heard yesterday that Germany’s primary source of power right now is coal.


Because wind and solar are not working in this weather


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Eh, those Germans. This is made is China.
I waiting for one that will pull a load of firewood.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Still waiting.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

How does this work in a drive thru?


----------



## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

reneedarley said:


> We, in Northern Sweden, have ice storms and have had four feet of snow on the ground for a couple of months. Our wind turbines and solar (They get cleared of snow) are doing just fine.


Thanks for the information. We don't have any wind turbines locally and solar is mostly on the big solar farms.

How are they cleared of snow? And what is done for ice?


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

painterswife said:


> So unproven that Texas uses more wind energy than coal energy. No need to go further.


We were talking about the tech to keep lines free of ice....Wind & solar are proven-- proven to be economic failures that survive lonly due to govt programs that make up their monetary short falls each year. Watch for those wind farms to be abandoned as those programs expire over the next decade.








Utilities Cash In on Green Energy Subsidy for Bigger Wind Farms


Utilities across the country are seizing a fast-expiring green energy subsidy to boost the efficiency of aging wind farms as they set ambitious goals to reduce their carbon emissions.




www.wsj.com





Retiring worn-out wind turbines could cost billions that nobody has | Energy Central
Utilities Cash In on Green Energy Subsidy for Bigger Wind Farms - WSJ









Utilities Cash In on Green Energy Subsidy for Bigger Wind Farms


Utilities across the country are seizing a fast-expiring green energy subsidy to boost the efficiency of aging wind farms as they set ambitious goals to reduce their carbon emissions.




www.wsj.com






What about my second question?



reneedarley said:


> We, in Northern Sweden, have ice storms and have had four feet of snow on the ground for a couple of months. Our wind turbines and solar (They get cleared of snow) are doing just fine.


I hope you folks in Northern Sweden are keeping warm and doing well --both of you.....

Please don't try to extrapolate the experience of a country that has fewer people than metropolitan New York to our situation here. I doubt you guys use as much juice all year as that needed to keep the lights on Broadway lit each month.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

doc- said:


> We were talking about the tech to keep lines free of ice....What about my second question?


No. He responded to one of my posts and I directly responded to it. Then you quoted that. So no I was not talking about the tech to keep lines free of ice.


----------



## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

The fact that many of you are claiming green power is why Texas is short on power right now proves your unconditional bias, it proves you don't understand what actually is failing in Texas, and it proves that you believe what you are told by your chosen talking heads. Even when it's verifiably incorrect.
Tragic..... it explains so much that is wrong in the States. You are so busy taking sides to issues you don't understand then patting each other on the backs as if there's truth. Nope!
Plenty of blame for the blackouts and grid failures. The % that is wind/solar is miniscule.....


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I almost bristled when I read that. Then, I realized he is, on the whole, correct.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

This is serious now. It almost like people are enjoying playing gotcha at Texas' and others expense. This ain't funny


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

This thread was a gotcha against wind power when in fact it was about the Energy companies not being prepared for cold weather.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> This thread was a gotcha against wind power when in fact it was about the Energy companies not being prepared for cold weather.


Now it has turned into another HT civil war


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I eagerly await the shift in power sources. Carbon energy is dirty. Nuclear is dirty.


Which one do you like?


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

All power sources require some “dirt.”


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

fireweed farm said:


> ... it proves that you believe what you are told by your chosen talking heads. Even when it's verifiably incorrect.
> Tragic..... it explains so much that is wrong in the States.....


It is so very fortunate for Canada that there is no partisanship or disagreement in the media.

There is only one opinion; the one The Crown allows you.

How quaint.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Which one do you like?


Which alternate source?

The one that I think will eventually win out is tidal. It’s unstoppable, immense in capacity, and located in convenient proximity to the vast majority of the world’s population. It’s a near-infinite power source just lying there waiting for us to pick it up.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Is this for real?


















Tim Boyd, Former Colorado City Mayor: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know


The ex-mayor of Colorado City, Texas, Tim Boyd, wrote on Facebook that residents needed to fend for themselves after a severe winter storm caused power outages.




heavy.com


----------



## Drizler (Jun 16, 2002)

tidal is grossly expensive to build and maintain because of salt water. That’s a real problem as is maintenance and safety. I’m sure it’s doable though but at what cost .


----------



## woodenfires (Dec 2, 2003)

fireweed farm said:


> The fact that many of you are claiming green power is why Texas is short on power right now proves your unconditional bias, it proves you don't understand what actually is failing in Texas, and it proves that you believe what you are told by your chosen talking heads. Even when it's verifiably incorrect.
> Tragic..... it explains so much that is wrong in the States. You are so busy taking sides to issues you don't understand then patting each other on the backs as if there's truth. Nope!
> Plenty of blame for the blackouts and grid failures. The % that is wind/solar is miniscule.....


They were just talking about this on tv, they said the % of solar and wind is 10% in texas, seems there is more to the story....the 3 fingers pointing back at the accusation haven't been heard from yet ...jim


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

As millions of Texans experience continued power outages amid extreme winter weather, Gov. Greg Abbott is declaring the reform of the Electric Reliability Council of Texas as an emergency item for the state Legislature.

“The Electric Reliability Council of Texas has been anything but reliable over the past 48 hours,” Abbott said in a Tuesday release. “Far too many Texans are without power and heat for their homes as our state faces freezing temperatures and severe winter weather. This is unacceptable.”

The designation means the Legislature can now act on the issue almost immediately upon return to Austin. Both Democratic and Republican lawmakers have expressed outrage at the agency over the past two days, calling for an immediate investigation and changes to ensure this week’s widespread blackouts are the last.









'This is unacceptable': Abbott calls for emergency reform of ERCOT


As millions of Texans experience continued power outages amid extreme winter weather,...




www.houstonchronicle.com


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Mixed thoughts.

A study and a proclamation won’t turn the power on in a once-in-a-century blackout event.


----------



## sweetbabyjane (Oct 21, 2002)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Mixed thoughts.
> 
> A study and a proclamation won’t turn the power on in a once-in-a-century blackout event.


They are just looking for a scapegoat.

SBJ


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Everyone is overlooking the *REAL REASON* Texas is facing an energy crisis right now. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the % of green energy or % of natural gas or whatever they are using to produce electricity. The fact is that Texas and much of the southern United States just doesn't face temperatures this cold during a routine winter. 

We would have much the same problem if temperatures got to be over 110*F in the summer in our northern states. Texans would be saying, it's just typical Texas weather, y'all should have made your houses better for passive cooling. Wah, poor baby, y'all should have shade trees and swimming pools.

BTW, I love that drawl and y'all. You get funny looks if you say it up here.


----------



## Panicky (Feb 17, 2021)

nchobbyfarm said:


> Go green they said.
> 
> It'll be fun they said.
> 
> ...


*I like this - really funny because I have those ugly turbines next to my rural property (Colorado)*


----------



## woodenfires (Dec 2, 2003)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I eagerly await the shift in power sources. Carbon energy is dirty. Nuclear is dirty. The debate about global-climate-cooling-change is obviously not settled, but I think it’s very difficult to argue that our current energy system is helping the planet.
> 
> The problem, in my opinion, is trying to force through changes, regardless the motivation. Green Peace didn’t save the whales. The Standard Oil Company did. Someone is going to come up with a better solution, and it’s going to be the result of the drive of their own self-benefit. Forcing an answer is only going to provide flawed solutions that come to being out of an attempt to short-cut the system and get those subsidy dollars.


Greenpeace may not have saved the whales, they also didn't create the problems for whales, they did bring attention to the matter and thank goodness someone cared enough to do that. Companies that are forced to act on problems they help create are not heroes. We had the "sydney tar ponds" for decades, a slimy oozing mess of pcbs from coal, coke ovens, cancer rates soared almost 50% higher than the rest of the country, birth defects common, but, good paying jobs ruled the day and it continued for generations, a century. The gov't ended up footing the bill, our money, but no one cleaned up anything, instead they covered the stuff with concrete and made a beautiful looking park, but underneath the pretty, it oozes still.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

fireweed farm said:


> The fact that many of you are claiming green power is why Texas is short on power right now proves your unconditional bias, it proves you don't understand what actually is failing in Texas, and it proves that you believe what you are told by your chosen talking heads. Even when it's verifiably incorrect.
> Tragic..... it explains so much that is wrong in the States. You are so busy taking sides to issues you don't understand then patting each other on the backs as if there's truth. Nope!
> Plenty of blame for the blackouts and grid failures. The % that is wind/solar is miniscule.....


Nice rant, but what about those of us who realize the immediate problem in TX is not due to the measly 10% of power there coming from renewables but are using this topic as a platform to point out the limitations & fantasies of renewables in other regards.

Renewables have a small niche that they efficiently fill. The large, industrial installations do much more harm to the environment than good. They will not become economically viable until fossil fuels become much more depleted and their price goes up. 



GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Which alternate source?
> 
> The one that I think will eventually win out is tidal. It’s unstoppable, immense in capacity, and located in convenient proximity to the vast majority of the world’s population. It’s a near-infinite power source just lying there waiting for us to pick it up.


As Drizler points out, many practical problems with tidal installations- corrosion, susceptibility to storm damage, interruption of trade routes for Man and migratory routes for sea creatures etc etc. Another one that may have some small niche to fill, but not for general use.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

woodenfires said:


> Greenpeace may not have saved the whales, they also didn't create the problems for whales, they did bring attention to the matter and thank goodness someone cared enough to do that. Companies that are forced to act on problems they help create are not heroes...


I don’t disagree with the sentiment, but I also don’t think you understood my statement; “Green Peace didn’t save the whales. The Standard Oil Company did.”

Standard Oil didn’t put any strain on the world’s whale populations, but they most certainly did more to relieve that strain than any single organization in the world, government or private.

Google: “whale oil”


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Drizler said:


> tidal is grossly expensive to build and maintain because of salt water. That’s a real problem as is maintenance and safety. I’m sure it’s doable though but at what cost .





doc- said:


> As Drizler points out, many practical problems with tidal installations- corrosion, susceptibility to storm damage, interruption of trade routes for Man and migratory routes for sea creatures etc etc. Another one that may have some small niche to fill, but not for general use.


No doubt that it’s not ready. Nor may it ever be. Given the dubious costs and reliability of wind and solar, I’m not sure they’re “ready” either. The context of my statement was what alternative source I’d like to see take off.

I think there’s a lot of potential in tidal, once the hurdles are jumped. For all we know, that eureka moment is going to come when someone figures out how to harness the energy without actually putting anything in contact with the water... or someone figures out how to use a small parasitic current from the generation to locally ionize and desalinate the water right at the surface of the equipment.

It’s those sort of details, most often figured out by the capitalist, that make a “could be” into “hot damn, it does work”.

If they pushed tidal like they do the other subsidized “chosen” projects, we’d get working tidal, but it would cost more than it generates just to keep replacing the corroded equipment. That was my overall point.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

poppy said:


> Rolling blackouts affecting the whole state as ice storm shuts down half of Texas' wind turbines.
> 
> Icy weather chills Texas wind energy as deep freeze grips much of U.S. | Reuters



Gosh. Look at facts. Who would have thought of winterizing systems



https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/02/17/texas-abbott-wind-turbines-outages/



The governor’s arguments were contradicted by his own energy department, which outlined how most of Texas’s energy losses came from failures to winterize the power-generating systems, including fossil fuel pipelines, The Washington Post’s Will Englund reported. But Abbott’s debunked claims were echoed by other conservatives this week who have repeatedly blamed clean energy sources for the outages crippling the southern U.S.


----------



## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

doc- said:


> Nice rant, but what about those of us who realize the immediate problem in TX is not due to the measly 10% of power there coming from renewables but are using this topic as a platform to point out the limitations & fantasies of renewables in other regards.
> 
> Renewables have a small niche that they efficiently fill. The large, industrial installations do much more harm to the environment than good. They will not become economically viable until fossil fuels become much more depleted and their price goes up.
> 
> ...


Everything that you have stated here is incorrect and verifiably so.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

fireweed farm said:


> Everything that you have stated here is incorrect and verifiably so.


Prove me wrong with documented, non-refutable facts, Mr. Wizard.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Is this for real?
> 
> View attachment 93960
> 
> ...


I have a hard time taking someone serious when he doesn't know the difference between parish and perish.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Here's my take. I can't understand why we are even short of power. I know homes will use more heat but I also know that since Sunday our factories have been such down due to weather. A good 70 to 90 are shut down. The universities have been at Ultra low capacity. Heck, we only had 1 grocery store open Tuesday. Wednesday..... Zero were open.

Does anyone think that homes will use that much more power? I build commercial and industrial buildings. I have also built homes too. I know how much electric can go into a factory.

There is something else fishy going on here but I haven't figured it out yet. Probably never will either.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> There is something else fishy going on


A lot of that going around. Let me know when you figure it out. More than a passing curiosity.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> I have a hard time taking someone serious when he doesn't know the difference between parish and perish.


I suspect he went to public school


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> Here's my take. I can't understand why we are even short of power. I know homes will use more heat but I also know that since Sunday our factories have been such down due to weather. A good 70 to 90 are shut down. The universities have been at Ultra low capacity. Heck, we only had 1 grocery store open Tuesday. Wednesday..... Zero were open.
> 
> Does anyone think that homes will use that much more power? I build commercial and industrial buildings. I have also built homes too. I know how much electric can go into a factory.
> 
> There is something else fishy going on here but I haven't figured it out yet. Probably never will either.


Several reasons-- mostly that ice on power lines cause them to fall so transmission of power is interrupted. Wind & solar are out of commission (no sun & mill blades iced up &/or too windy) and apparently NG pipes are also iced and not delivering enough gas to power plants.

While demand is down as you point out, ability to generate & transmit power is even more curtailed.

The preventive fix would have been to have a much more robust infrastructure to handle this sort of thing, but it's so rare ( isn't this the worst ever for TX?) that an investment like that wouldn't be worth it in the long run. You gotta decide what's the smartest compromise between safety and cost. Life is a gamble.


----------



## melli (May 7, 2016)

Texas largely relies on natural gas for power. It wasn’t ready for the extreme cold.


Texas largely relies on natural gas — especially during times of high demand — to power the state. Experts say natural gas infrastructure, from pumping it out of the ground to the plants in city centers, was unprepared for the plunging temperatures brought by the winter storm.




www.texastribune.org





I look at that picture (in article above) of those cardboard houses, and the chill in the air, and opine how many of those houses are truly well insulated? 
I bet they are lucky to have R12 in walls, R20 in ceiling. A small cardboard box at street level might be better. 
Very few would have generators, being urban and all. A newer heat pump could be run on a 1500w quiet suitcase genny. 
I feel for them, as I recall many years ago when I moved into the hinterland, into a new house, we had a 4 day outage (windstorm). I was unprepared. The house got colder in it, than outside (trap nighttime lows). I fired up car for spells (outside), to warm up. One never forgets that. lol
I have to think one cannot find a generator within a thousand miles of Texas right now. Wood stove installers will be busy.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

doc- said:


> The preventive fix would have been to have a much more robust infrastructure to handle this sort of thing, but it's so rare ( isn't this the worst ever for TX?) that an investment like that wouldn't be worth it in the long run.


It is rare, but I put my money of under the table deals being at fault

*February 2021*
So, to begin our trip through history, let’s set the table with the current cold outbreak.

*Current coldest forecast temperature:* 10° on Tuesday 2/16
*Nights forecast at or below freezing:* Five


*January 2018*
*Coldest temperature:* 19° on 1/17
*Nights at or below freezing:* 10, split up over 20 days

*February 2011*
*Coldest temperature:* 21° on 2/2
*Nights at or below freezing:* 12 over 2 weeks

*December 1989*
*Coldest temperature:* 7° on 12/23
*Nights at or below freezing:* 14 over 2-3 weeks

*December 1983*
*Coldest temperature:* 11° on 12/25
*Nights at or below freezing:* 12, including 11 in a row to close the month.

I went back as far as when I lived there in '83









Looking back at some previous historic Houston cold snaps


With the deep freeze on the way to Houston, Eric thought it would be a good idea to take a look at some previous significant cold in Houston, so we can place this outbreak in historical context. As…




spacecityweather.com


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

There is a whole lot of meat and produce being tossed by companies like Sams due to the loss of power to their stores. Lots.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

I'm wondering how many people this will cause to start looking at ways of being more self-sufficient. Where I live, power is cut pretty regularly to prevent lines being knocked down by high winds and starting fires. Most of my neighbors have solar/batteries and/or generators (some whole-house, as it's difficult to run heat/air without a large solar system/batteries or on just a small generator).

Sure makes you start looking at the systems you take for granted when they're not reliable. Feeling awful for Texas right now, we've been through it ourselves more than a handful of times, although only being uncomfortably cold, not freezing. Hope it turns around soon.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

doc- said:


> Several reasons-- mostly that ice on power lines cause them to fall so transmission of power is interrupted. Wind & solar are out of commission (no sun & mill blades iced up &/or too windy) and apparently NG pipes are also iced and not delivering enough gas to power plants.
> 
> While demand is down as you point out, ability to generate & transmit power is even more curtailed.
> 
> The preventive fix would have been to have a much more robust infrastructure to handle this sort of thing, but it's so rare ( isn't this the worst ever for TX?) that an investment like that wouldn't be worth it in the long run. You gotta decide what's the smartest compromise between safety and cost. Life is a gamble.


We didn't have ice until after three blackouts were over. Before that was powder snow and very few of any lines down.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I


melli said:


> Texas largely relies on natural gas for power. It wasn’t ready for the extreme cold.
> 
> 
> Texas largely relies on natural gas — especially during times of high demand — to power the state. Experts say natural gas infrastructure, from pumping it out of the ground to the plants in city centers, was unprepared for the plunging temperatures brought by the winter storm.
> ...


I can answer this one as it used to be my living. We have about 80 percent that have good to very great insulation. Back when baby Bush was Governor he mandated energy efficient houses be utmost importance. Starting in 2000, there was a private program paid for by the utilities that did exactly that. 

They had to pay 5 percent I their gross profit for energy conservation measures or green energy generation. They chose conservation because it was easier. They did this for 10 years and spent billions of money on this. My company insulated and weatherized course to 100 million feet. I want the only one either. After they figured generation was the way to go we now have all these windmills and not so much conservation. But the void was filled by adopting energy codes. The only thing that "tricky Ricky" did that I liked. 

We installed no less than R-38 in ceilings and we also did walls save floors. Used blower doors and duct blasters to seal up everything. Is not as bad here on that front as you might think.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> I'm wondering how many people this will cause to start looking at ways of being more self-sufficient.


I am taking the opposite position. I wonder how many will demand more government protection. We know the government loves to develop dependents.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HDRider said:


> I am taking the opposite position. I wonder how many will demand more government protection. We know the government loves to develop dependents.


Didn't work out here. The government is perfectly fine with the power company shutting off our power for days on end so that they don't have to pay out on lawsuits.


----------



## melli (May 7, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> I
> 
> 
> I can answer this one as it used to be my living. We have about 80 percent that have good to very great insulation. Back when baby Bush was Governor he mandated energy efficient houses be utmost importance. Starting in 2000, there was a private program paid for by the utilities that did exactly that.
> ...







__





Searchable platform for building codes


Explore a searchable database of US construction and building code. Code regulations are consolidated by state and city for easier navigation.




up.codes





I see. Nothing for slabs. Reminds me, a neighbor up here was telling me (not long ago) he wasn't putting any insulation under slab because he wanted to take advantage of geothermal heating! Warm in winter and cool in summer he said. I tried to set him straight, but not really sure I got through to him. Note - you do not get geothermal heating in winter with slab on grade. To the contrary, your slab becomes a heat sink (that is, house heating is heating the earth, and it'll take a lot of energy to heat the earth in winter). 

I wish I could see pics of Texas snow covered roofs in this cold snap. It was a pastime in my old hood, looking at roofs in the dead of winter to see how well the installers installed insulation. Occasionally, we'd see a candy striped roof. Oops. Strips of snow on roof, with strips of black roof. It looks like houses in article, have unheated attics judging by plenty of roof vents (blown in insulation for attic floor I assume).

Wasn't my intention to slag Texas per se, but I've seen too many homes that are as efficient, as a cardboard box.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I lived in a slab house for a few years. No insulation at all under the slab. Condensation would make ice piles inside the house in exterior corners. You just could not stay warm in the winter in that house. I hate slab houses!


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

My newish all electric house in Spicewood is super insulated. Normal cooling bills in the summer are under $95.

People are reluctant to spend 10% extra during construction for an efficient home. This house will be my forever home and pass to my sons, saving money every month.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Slab houses here in Central Texas aren’t normally insulated under the slab. I don’t know about farther north.

I don’t like pier and beam because the cold air blows underneath.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

melli said:


> . Reminds me, a neighbor up here was telling me (not long ago) he wasn't putting any insulation under slab because he wanted to take advantage of geothermal heating! Warm in winter and cool in summer he said. I tried to set him straight, but not really sure I got through to him. *Note - you do not get geothermal heating in winter with slab on grade*. To the contrary, your slab becomes a heat sink (that is, house heating is heating the earth, and it'll take a lot of energy to heat the earth in winter).


Yes and no-- the slab is in contact with the ground, which doesn't get as cold as the surrounding air. OTOH- the slab to ground contact sheds heat more quickly than floor to air.

The flip side is, although you have a slight advantage in insulating under the slab in winter, you have a huge disadvantage in having insulation in summer-- you lose the heat sink of the slab and all your cooling has to come from your AC.

I built an earthberm house (so not a direct comparison) and purposely did not put insulation under the slab-- no need for any AC in summer and low fuel use in winter couldn't be much better with insulation. (zone 4)


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

melli said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know you wasn't trying to dis on texas but asking a genuine question. I am actually kinda proud of the conservation we have done here this century but more is always better. 

Yeah, we don't worry much said frost lines here. Usually it's about an inch lol. There are municipalities like Lufkin Texas that had water freeze below ground. Our city had a main break and threw the city out of water. Don't think it is back up yet. I bet we have some insulated slabs coming up soon in the codes.


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## DebbieJ (Oct 9, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Slab houses here in Central Texas aren’t normally insulated under the slab. I don’t know about farther north.
> 
> I don’t like pier and beam because the cold air blows underneath.


Alice, we have a pier and beam house. We have a chain wall around the whole house. We put up wind blocks before winter. Our house is well insulated. Yes, the floor gets cool, but it’s fine with just a pair of socks. I’ve never wanted a house on a slab. Just don’t. No particular reason. I guess because I grew up in a pier and beam house. Now, it didn’t have even underpending or insulation. I remember one winter the water in the toilet froze. I finally talked my grandmother into leaving the heater in the bathroom on. It helped the whole house be a tad warmer. We’d have so many blankets on the bed, it was hard to turn over.

We have family who live in Spicewood.


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## DebbieJ (Oct 9, 2016)

DebbieJ said:


> Alice, we have a pier and beam house. We have a chain wall around the whole house. We put up wind blocks before winter. Our house is well insulated. Yes, the floor gets cool, but it’s fine with just a pair of socks. I’ve never wanted a house on a slab. Just don’t. No particular reason. I guess because I grew up in a pier and beam house. Now, it didn’t have even underpending or insulation. I remember one winter the water in the toilet froze. I finally talked my grandmother into leaving the heater in the bathroom on. It helped the whole house be a tad warmer. We’d have so many blankets on the bed, it was hard to turn over.
> 
> We have family who live in Spicewood.


I did forget to add that under the house flooring is insulated as well.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Only 7% of Texas energy production is renewables. It's disingenuous for the oil companies to blame renewable energy sources for their screw up. If the Can't Dos are able to block the transition to CO2 free energy sources we will pay many times the price in climate change.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

fishhead said:


> Only 7% of Texas energy production is renewables. It's disingenuous for the oil companies to blame renewable energy sources for their screw up. If the Can't Dos are able to block the transition to CO2 free energy sources we will pay many times the price in climate change.


There is no CO2 free energy source in use today. Wind turbines, nuclear, hydroelectric, solar all consume huge amounts of CO2 in their manufacture and maintenance. The grid uses aluminum and copper wires to transfer the power from those to the consumer.


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## 304Thomas55 (Jul 14, 2018)

poppy said:


> Rolling blackouts affecting the whole state as ice storm shuts down half of Texas' wind turbines.
> 
> Icy weather chills Texas wind energy as deep freeze grips much of U.S. | Reuters


I believe they're going to rename the council....cause it don't look real reliable

The Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT)


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## 304Thomas55 (Jul 14, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Maybe the folks advocating wind and solar failed to take weather into account.
> 
> 
> “Extreme cold weather and snow are rare in Texas, and the National Weather Service in the state, based in Midland, tweeted early Monday that it recorded a temperature of minus 2 degrees Fahrenheit, the coldest temperature in the region in 32 years.
> ...


Snow On Solar Panels: Will Solar Panels Work In the Winter? (solarreviews.com)


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Solar panels covered in ice and snow do not work. Read the article carefully, and one realizes they dodge that.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Solar panels covered in ice and snow do not work. Read the article carefully, and one realizes they dodge that.


But, but.....

Yeah, I saw it too. 

Problem as I see it is that each side thinks they are right. Green is the way. Oil is the way. 

Neither is the way until it becomes economically feasible for the investor. 

Greed has a way of cutting corners. 

People need to be a little bit accountable for their families and not rely 100% on others whom they do not even know. 

Last but not least, the squeaky wheel always gets greased first.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

It’s all on a continuum. (The following isn’t exact.)

Firewood
Animal fat
Charcoal
Coal
Wind
Steam (from coal heat)
Electricity (produced by water power, steam turbines, etc.)
Oil
Nuclear
Solar

All are still in use, but methods have been modified and improved. There will be more modifications.

Day after tomorrow someone may invent something absolutely new that we cannot imagine today.


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## Drizler (Jun 16, 2002)

melli said:


> Texas largely relies on natural gas for power. It wasn’t ready for the extreme cold.
> 
> 
> Texas largely relies on natural gas — especially during times of high demand — to power the state. Experts say natural gas infrastructure, from pumping it out of the ground to the plants in city centers, was unprepared for the plunging temperatures brought by the winter storm.
> ...


I was working in the US northern NY border with US Customs during the big ice storm of 1998. We had all the same power outages Quebec had. For hours on end we get people coming from Montreal asking where we thought they had to go look for generators and supplies related to heating. There’d be a break in the middle of the night and then in the wee hours it started up again always the same questions and everybody just kept going further and further south. That’s all you could do is tell him where the last guy told you they didn’t have any and they go farther. This went on for over a month. Generators and firewood constantly. 
Some of the stories we would hear were downright weird. People were burning furniture, porches and anything they could find to create heat. One young guy told me that on a gruesomely cold night all they could do was pile into the closet in a clump to get through the night. He said it was so cold that the family cat froze to death outside in the house. I asked him why they didn’t just squeeze the cat in with them and he said there just wasn’t enough room and he was dead serious. Spooky stuff. 
The criminals like to come out then two and grab generators. Their favorite trick was to use a long extension cord plug it into the generator so that they could walk away with it running . The owners wouldn’t know to come outside until they were at least 50 to 100 feet away often driving away in a truck with a generator running. That little stunt really caught on and happened a lot. The CO deaths piled up too. I noticed how fumes from my Genny running outside in the wind could go up into the eve and show a slight reading on the other side of the house. That in a blasting wind no less. Those cursed Murphy oil switches like to freeze and it won’t start too. I snipped my wire and just checked the oil each fill. Many of them had problems freezing. The vent would skim over and the seal would pop leaking the oil out. After it was all over Sears had rows of them for sale for a song with seals blown out.
Out in the country most of us were fine. The few fatalities were clearing tree debris and a few CO poisonings. I learned one big thing from all this. Don’t get caught up in a disaster like this in an urban area. Us hay shakers in the country just lived rough for a while but it wasn’t anywhere near as desperate as in that city.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

304Thomas55 said:


> Snow On Solar Panels: Will Solar Panels Work In the Winter? (solarreviews.com)


That article is BS-- solar panels don't work very well with even a few clouds in the sky, let alone snow on them-- even a little....Note that the article states that cells are tested at 41degF, their optimum temp-- but they fail to mention that below 41, performance falls off rapidly...Here in WI, 41 is a pleasant summer evening.

It seems many people are missing a major point about the situation in TX-- The power companies didn't "screw up." They made a responsible risk assessment and decided not to take all possible precautions for all possible situations. They didn't spend the extra money (lot's of it) to defend against a once in 500 yrs episode. (It's the ice, not the temps that are the problem.)

They also decided not to invest in an energy shield to protect against invasion by the Romulan Federation or Martians...Do you think they should have?...Do you wear a flack jacket to the library just in case there's crook there with a gun? Why not?.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

DebbieJ said:


> I’ve never wanted a house on a slab.


I've had all kinds of houses. Spiders and bugs seem worse with a slab house.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

doc- said:


> The power companies didn't "screw up." They made a responsible risk assessment and decided not to take all possible precautions for all possible situations. They didn't spend the extra money (lot's of it) to defend against a once in 500 yrs episode. (It's the ice, not the temps that are the problem.)


I agree with you, but I posted earlier showing Texas had similar weather in the past. I have note heard it called a once in 500 year thing. 

I do not recall power outages in those prior cold snaps. I lived in Houston during one of the coldest, and we had no problem.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Some reasons we didn’t have these power issues in Texas before 

1. Previous cold snaps occurred when the population was lower, and there was less demand on the grid
2. This episode was statewide, which is unusual
3. More folks did preps because granma reminded them of the freeze of 1899
4. This episode had more snow than at any time in my life (66 years)


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> natural gas is very clean burning.


As compared to other fossil fuels, yes. But soot isn't the issue now. Carbon footprint is the issue. You're still going to generate a lot of CO2 when you burn natural gas.

Migrating away from natural gas is going to be difficult because it's so inexpensive. But that's not due so much to new discoveries and deeper drilling, as it's the production boost from improvements in hydraulic fracturing techniques. But like texas' electrical grid, Texas also has a serious shortfalls in their natural gas distribution network.

As for governor Abbott's contention that the current crisis is somehow related to wind turbine power generation, I don't see how it applies. He's just playing politics.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

It doesn't matter. It's all Ted Cruz's fault I found out this morning. If only he hadn't gone to Mexico I would have some power this week.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Some reasons we didn’t have these power issues in Texas before
> 
> 1. Previous cold snaps occurred when the population was lower, and there was less demand on the grid
> 2. This episode was statewide, which is unusual
> ...


You didn't summarize your thoughts into a conclusion. Is it your conclusion that Texas couldn't possibly foresee this event?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Nevada said:


> As compared to other fossil fuels, yes. But soot isn't the issue now. Carbon footprint is the issue. You're still going to generate a lot of CO2 when you burn natural gas.
> 
> Migrating away from natural gas is going to be difficult because it's so inexpensive. But that's not due so much to new discoveries and deeper drilling, as it's the production boost from improvements in hydraulic fracturing techniques. But like texas' electrical grid, Texas also has a serious shortfalls in their natural gas distribution network.
> 
> As for governor Abbott's contention that the current crisis is somehow related to wind turbine power generation, I don't see how it applies. He's just playing politics.


I happen to disagree with you. The natural gas has already been drilled and fract'd. All we need is to use it now. It's the best transition fuel we have and we do need one. 

As far as the distribution that is also mostly false. If there is a plant that uses natural gas it has a pipeline to it. No, the nuclear plant doesn't have one and neither does the windmills. 

I don't believe Greg Abbott is "being political" either. For once we have a decent Governor that seems to care. Even cares about the ones that didn't vote for him. Haven't seen that in a while.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Nevada said:


> You didn't summarize your thoughts into a conclusion. Is it your conclusion that Texas couldn't possibly foresee this event?


To summarize would be to add an opinion. Once that is done, you and others would tell her she is wrong. 


What's wrong with stating facts and letting your own intelligence take over for once?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> It doesn't matter. It's all Ted Cruz's fault I found out this morning. If only he hadn't gone to Mexico I would have some power this week.


Clearly, going to Cancun while his constituents are suffering was politically tone deaf, but I'm not going to sweat the small stuff right now. That's for his voters to decide.

Being the conservative that he is he'll probably say his trip to Cancun was Biden's fault, and his supporters will believe it.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Nevada said:


> Clearly, going the Cancun while his constituents are suffering was politically tone deaf, but I'm not going to sweat the small stuff right now. That's for his voters to decide.
> 
> Being the conservative that he is, he'll probably say his trip to Cancun was Biden's fault, and his supporters will believe it.


You mean it wasn't?


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Crazy how all the media is trying to make this Texas problem political and point blame. They had a really unusual, unfortunate big weather event that knocked out a bunch of their power grid. They're getting it fixed and will be back up and running like normal soon. Every now and then Mother nature has to show us who is running things.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Please remember that making things political in GC will result in another thread being moved.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Fishindude said:


> Crazy how all the media is trying to make this Texas problem political and point blame.


Texas wanted it's own system. This is what they gave them.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Too many immigrants came to Texas. Overloaded the system. Acted helpless before and during the weather event. 

Only moderate sarcasm.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Texas wanted it's own system. This is what they gave them.


Things go wrong in an unprecedented weather event and not only in Texas.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

I guess the next time there's a freak heatwave in the north we can all giggle about people dying because they don't have air conditioning. Seriously, people.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Things go wrong in an unprecedented weather event and not only in Texas.


What do you think disaster planning is?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> What do you think disaster planning is?


Did you have a problem with the word unprecedented?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Nevada, you aren’t always this snarky. Are you ok?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Did you have a problem with the word unprecedented?


You were warned that this sort of thing would result from climate change.

At this point it's important to note that refusing to believe it didn't prevent it.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Nevada said:


> You were warned that this sort of thing would result from climate change.
> 
> At this point it's important to note that refusing to believe it didn't prevent it.


Wait, I thought temperatures were supposed to rise, which wouldn't cause the problems Texas is currently experiencing.

It's a weather event, not a climate event.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Nevada, that is harsh. Yes, there should have been some better backup power but not everyone can be prepared for all eventualities. I don't expect people in California to have snow tires on where they might get a snow every three years.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

There is no such thing as unprecedented.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Dang it. I am going to have to think about that.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

barnbilder said:


> There is no such thing as unprecedented.


One could argue that it is unprecedented because of the combination of events - the largest population ever putting a strain on a newer style electric grid that is hit by one of the coldest/most prolonged events ever.

There really is such a thing as unprecedented when all contributing factors are figured into the equation.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> You were warned that this sort of thing would result from climate change.
> 
> At this point it's important to note that refusing to believe it didn't prevent it.


It was a weather event, there are such freak occurrences throughout history.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> You were warned that this sort of thing would result from climate change.
> 
> At this point it's important to note that refusing to believe it didn't prevent it.


Is there some point in laying blame? My friend in Texas indicates that it's not that this has never happened before but it happens so rarely that that it's not cost effective to prepare for a winter storm every few decades. 

I'd be curious if you put winter tires on each year, if you have your snow shovel handy and what other winter preparations you have in place, in case you have a similar storm? I believe Vegas had 7.9 inches in 1979. 

We just had a week of -45 C and colder and while it's not an annual event, it also happens and we also had some blackouts. Rural Albertans have the power line thing figured out and most of us make a tried and true method of keeping heavy frost and ice off our lines. Is this something you would be prepared for or is it easier to stand by and blame everything on climate change?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Nevada, you aren’t always this snarky. Are you ok?


I'll try to mellow out a little. I;m not here to hurt anybody's feelings.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

wr said:


> Is there some point in laying blame? My friend in Texas indicates that it's not that this has never happened before but it happens so rarely that that it's not cost effective to prepare for a winter storm every few decades.


Perhaps Texas should consider joining the rest of the US power grid.



wr said:


> I'd be curious if you put winter tires on each year, if you have your snow shovel handy and what other winter preparations you have in place, in case you have a similar storm? I believe Vegas had 7.9 inches in 1979.


Both of my cars are 4x4 and I carry snow chains. I carry 2 sets of snow chains in my Jeep and one set in the Explorer (Explorer tires are larger so the chains aren't interchangeable).. Historically we see enough snow to stick in the resort corridor about once every 5 years, but that hasn't happened since 2008 when we got about 4 inches. I believe the lack of snowfall is the result of climate change. We broke a record this year as the first year ever the temperature didn't reach down to 32 (that's the airport temp).

Strictly speaking, the west end of the city of Las Vegas sees snow every year. The resorts are at about 2200 feet, but the west end of the city (Summerlin district) is close to 3500 feet, which sees snow regularly. It doesn't seem like that much of a rise because it's gradual, only about 100 feet rise per mile.

Here's a news station in Detroit getting it completely wrong just a few weeks ago. That snow was in Summerlin, but close to the resorts where I live we didn't see any snow at all. Contrary to what this news clip suggests, Summerlin residents expect snow every year.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Mish said:


> Wait, I thought temperatures were supposed to rise, which wouldn't cause the problems Texas is currently experiencing.


Calling it climate change instead of global warming was supposed to clear up that confusion. Overall the globe is warming, but that can cause huge (and unprecedented) swings in weather, in both directions.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Nevada, that is harsh. Yes, there should have been some better backup power but not everyone can be prepared for all eventualities. I don't expect people in California to have snow tires on where they might get a snow every three years.


I have them!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Perhaps Texas should consider joining the rest of the US power grid.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


2 4x4's? How carbon neutral of you! Apparently you don't care about the climate much. And having 2 vehicles, according to blm, is elitist.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> Calling it climate change instead of global warming was supposed to clear up that confusion.


I can hear Jon Lovitz saying that exact line followed by " Yeah! That's the ticket!".


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Nevada said:


> Calling it climate change instead of global warming


It is called rebranding


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

HDRider said:


> I agree with you, but I posted earlier showing Texas had similar weather in the past. I have note heard it called a once in 500 year thing.
> 
> I do not recall power outages in those prior cold snaps. I lived in Houston during one of the coldest, and we had no problem.


It's not the cold. It's the snow & ice. Se highlighted points in Alice's quote below.



Alice In TX/MO said:


> Some reasons we didn’t have these power issues in Texas before
> 
> *1. Previous cold snaps occurred when the population was lower, and there was less demand on the grid
> 2. This episode was statewide, which is unusual*
> ...





wr said:


> Please remember that making things political in GC will result in another thread being moved.


But it *is* political.


Nevada said:


> You were warned that this sort of thing would result from climate change.
> 
> At this point it's important to note that refusing to believe it didn't prevent it.


OK-- take your pick--co2 either causes warming or it causes ice storms--it can't do both. We're not stupid enough to believe the claim by the Liberals that it does both.

If we are to believe the warming BS, then we didn't need to plan for this.

Please explain to us once and for all how exactly co2 causes global warming. A point all the "climate scientists" fail to explain is how, if co2 captures radiation mainly in 4.5u range, which only it can do, and then is able to pass that energy, re-radiated also at 4.5u to other molecules in the atmosphere (which can't absorb at that wavelength) to cause warming....???...A non sequitur..

If you don't know what I'm talking about, then may I suggest you should not have formed an opinion on the science yet. ...How is it you have such a strong opinion now, despite being naive?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

doc- said:


> It's not the cold. It's the snow & ice. Se highlighted points in Alice's quote below.


I think she is right, and I think she also mentioned a larger population, and greater demand - Makes sense


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

The cold is the reason the natural gas froze. So yes, the cold is the reason, not to mention you don't get snow and ice problems without cold as well.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Nevada said:


> You were warned that this sort of thing would result from climate change.
> 
> At this point it's important to note that refusing to believe it didn't prevent it.


Texas generates more green energy than most countries do. How does that mean we didn't believe it?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

@ HDRider 

Swoon!


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Mish said:


> I guess the next time there's a freak heatwave in the north we can all giggle about people dying because they don't have air conditioning. Seriously, people.


Every year here charity organizations hold "fan drives" for people who don't have or can't afford air conditioning. Every year I wonder what the recipients did with the fans they were given last year. Seems they interview the same grateful recipients every summer. But those were probably the only ones who were thankful.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

painterswife said:


> Nevada, that is harsh. Yes, there should have been some better backup power but not everyone can be prepared for all eventualities. I don't expect people in California to have snow tires on where they might get a snow every three years.


I wasn't referring to individuals, I was referring to the Texas infrastructure being inadequate. Texas residents are not only victims of circumstance, but also victims of their state maintaining inadequate infrastructure. I feel badly for Texas residents.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I just started a new thread with interesting info about this perfect (electrical) storm.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Drizler said:


> Out in the country most of us were fine. The few fatalities were clearing tree debris and a few CO poisonings. I learned one big thing from all this. Don’t get caught up in a disaster like this in an urban area. Us hay shakers in the country just lived rough for a while but it wasn’t anywhere near as desperate as in that city.


Isn't that the truth. I learned from my short 4 day lesson. Darn, the cold gets into you. With power outages now, I weigh the pro and cons of walking to well shed to fire up genny (how lazy am I). My house isn't perfect, but this concrete-Styrofoam cooler with triple pane glass actually holds heat, so much so, I turn on AC in winter to cool bedroom down. My bad.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

The groundhog says 6 more weeks of winter. 

Texans said, nah bro, we gonna knock this out in 3-5 business days.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Danaus29 said:


> Every year here charity organizations hold "fan drives" for people who don't have or can't afford air conditioning. Every year I wonder what the recipients did with the fans they were given last year. Seems they interview the same grateful recipients every summer. But those were probably the only ones who were thankful.


Box fans don't last like they used to. Lucky to get three months out of one now.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I've got one in the basement that blows heat from the wood stove around. Been running it for 3 years. But it didn't come from Walmart.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

They say we will have power but early Sunday morning now. This is the Oncor area. The problem now is not the lines being down but blown transformers. They have some coming tomorrow. 

As a weird fact, I use swipe on my phone. It's one reason I make so many mistakes. The word tomorrow just came out as ribeye. I think my phone must be hungry. 

Anyway, after waiting in line for an hour I have enough gas for the generator until Sunday. If anyone here is running low on gas everything should be back to near normal in that respect by midnight as the trucks are running at better than full capacity now. There should not be 2 hour wait times to get gas by this time tomorrow.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> The groundhog says 6 more weeks of winter.
> 
> Texans said, nah bro, we gonna knock this out in 3-5 business days.


Yeah, but good on the store owner who dedicated 500 square feet of floor space to snow shovels and such every year. You know, just in case.


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## Drizler (Jun 16, 2002)

barnbilder said:


> Box fans don't last like they used to. Lucky to get three months out of one now.


Serious planned obsolescence in the extreme with those Wallyworld fans. They make the blades out of a brittle plastic so they shatter if it tips over a couple times. Worse, there’s nothing simply built to p over than a wallymart 16” fan. If you don’t clamp those in a window or make a plywood base their own thrust knocks them over. 
We have been using those since the early 90s and as you’d expect they were ok back then but went to . I have several buried in the barn in case I need a part but as you’d expect the only one that goes is the  fan


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Warren Buffett group lobbying Texas lawmakers for deal to build $8 billion worth of power plants (msn.com)

As the Texas Legislature debated how to respond to last month’s winter storm-driven power crisis, executives at billionaire Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway Energy were pitching lawmakers an idea: The group would spend over $8 billion to build 10 new natural gas power plants in the state.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Never waste a good crisis. 

Seems that winterizing the existing plants would be cheaper. What do they think will happen during the "normal" years when the extra power isn't needed and the plants sit idle? About the time you need them for emergency power they will have issues because of sitting idle.

The problem wasn't that the existing infrastructure could not handle the demand, the problem was that the existing infrastructure couldn't handle the unusually cold weather.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> Never waste a good crisis.
> 
> Seems that winterizing the existing plants would be cheaper. What do they think will happen during the "normal" years when the extra power isn't needed and the plants sit idle? About the time you need them for emergency power they will have issues because of sitting idle.
> 
> The problem wasn't that the existing infrastructure could not handle the demand, the problem was that the existing infrastructure couldn't handle the unusually cold weather.


 Wrong. ERCOT: Texas Power Line Upgrades to Cost $3B | The Energy Cluster (wordpress.com) This article goes on to state that the $3B is *in Addition *to $4B in costs associated with those upgrades.

The problem was that the infrastructure couldn't handle the widely fluctuating power surges as "renewables" came on and off and the cold weather increased demand. (See one of my earlier posts here for a reference on that.)

It's bad weather that causes an increase in demand, and bad weather means clouds so solar won't work and winds too strong for wind mills to be kept running...Pretty stupid to insist we need more renewables. We need less.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Are the upgrades just to cope with cold weather or are they upgrades that are needed anyway? Your article isn't specific.

This article states the cold was the problem









Texas largely relies on natural gas for power. It wasn’t ready for the extreme cold.


Texas largely relies on natural gas — especially during times of high demand — to power the state. Experts say natural gas infrastructure, from pumping it out of the ground to the plants in city centers, was unprepared for the plunging temperatures brought by the winter storm.




www.texastribune.org





Some equipment was off-line for routine maintenance before the cold hit. But the system was not set up to operate in extreme (for Texas, typical winter for northern states) cold that set in and stayed. Any new facility would face the same problem if it is not set up to operate in sub-freezing temperatures.

Building a reserve system that may get used every 10 years is similar to winterizing current equipment for an event that might occur every 10 years. Either way, or even if they continue along the same path, Texas residents will pay for it.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I just looked at the date of your article.
*January 4, 2009*
Those upgrades were completed long before the winter of 2021.


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