# Fading goatling syndrome? or what? help with baby needed!



## lava (Nov 12, 2007)

OK, long story short...someone called me about an orphaned baby goat and I took him in. I've raised babies before but there's "something going on" with this baby. He's now 12 days old. His mother died in labor with his twin, and he was in a field for a day or so before someone found him. Then someone who was well-intentioned but not very goat knowledgeable had him for a day. Then I got him (at day 2 of life). It took a bit of "coaxing" (feeding clear sugars at first, warming him, etc.) but I got him "built back up" to normal. 

But he keeps "fading" every day or two--like if he were chilled (no, he's in the house and I've found him a friend (an undersized pygmy goat with neurological problems who was rejected by his mother, who's about 3 weeks older than the first baby but smaller than him...which is a whole different story--I'll probably post with questions about him once we get this baby better), or fed cold milk (nope), or had a heavy parasite burden (I dewormed him at about day #5), etc. Gut stasis or slowdown, depressed attitude (not "down" but not himself), decreased suck (I have to convince him to nurse--he'll take a little of his bottle, maybe 1/4, and then if I come back (sometimes twice) in a half-hour or so he'll take more). 

Night before last I thought we were sure going to lose him--quiet, no suck/appetite/no audible gut noises/etc.--I put extra heat in the room with their crate, added Tums and baking soda and a bit of mineral oil to some electrolytes and karo syrup and fed him only that every hour or so for about 12 hours--he actually didn't poop for over 24 hours, even though he was back to formula. 

Puppies and kittens have a "fading puppy syndrome" or "fading kitten syndrome" that's kind of like this. Do goats?

What am I missing? Any ideas what's going on? 

THANKS!
-lava


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

I dewormed him at about day #5
................

With what? Ivermectin given to newborns can simply kill them, it is the only wormer we have that passes through the blood brain barrier (why you use it with menenigal worm) so you can cause neugological problems in kids, which makes them forget how to suck, when given this young.

Your kid is always going to have problems, it's called failure to thrive. He had no colostrum in the first 12 hours of life, he likely has no selenium level in his blood so he has major muscle mass issues, including his heart which isn't pumping enough blood to keep blood in his brain, sucking, walking, keeping warm. His intestines have now shut down so everything you do for him immunity wise will have to come orally and vaccines.

Stop right this instant putting anything into him orally except warm goat milk or grocery store milk (whole Vitamin D). IF he can't suck you have to tube him the warm, his body temp should be 102 so 102 milk also. IF he needs more fluids they should be subq only lactated ringers. Bo-se shot for the white muscle disease he has and 300 iu vitamin E capsules from Wallmart, snip the end and squish the contents into his mouth a couple of times a day, this will stop some of the muscular destrophy he has. IF he is not sucking in 36 hours from these treatments, belly full of warm milk, bo-se shots, and E by mouth, put him down.

A baby goat needs milk, mixed with the saliva in his mouth and in his gut the milk starts turing into curds and whey. The whey is absorbed into the bloodstream and comes out as pee, and the curd, as nutrients are absrobed move from the stomach to the intestines where more nutritients are absorbed and the curd becomes less and less liquid, until in the small intestine no nutrients or fluid is left and you have solid pellets. Anything you give orally that stops this curd formation, too much water, electrolytes etc...causes the diarrhea you will see once you get him hydrated. Vicki


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

Floppy kid, bacterial in nature, likely the dam didn't get a CDT shot, probably not likely to be worm load in a 12 day old goat. I'd be giving him B complex to stimulate his appetite and BoSE because he probably didn't have any. Here's some info on floppy kid syndrome:
Floppy Kid Syndrome:
a.. Affects kids from 3-21 days of age. Some get it younger or older, they can have it twice 
b.. Is found in dam raised kids, as well as bottle raised kids. 
c.. Is caused by clostridial type AE bacteria. 
d.. Clostridial bacteria, such as Tetanus live in the ground. 
e.. Is treatable if caught early. 

Symptoms:
a.. First symptom is a wobbly or unsteady gate. If you see a kid cross his back legs when he is walking or runs a few steps and stumble he is probably in the early stages of FKS. 
b.. Kids seem to eat dirt have dirty mouths and faces. 
c.. Does have strutted udders. You can tell their kid has not nursed well. 
d.. You can sneak up & catch pasture kids, they don't try to run off. 
e.. Dam raised kids tend to be hollow, haven't nursed & appear to be weak. 
f.. Bottle kids tend to show the more prominent full belly the gut shuts down & the milk stays in the stomachs. The kids seem to slosh when shaken. These kids need treated with Pepto or Baking Soda. 
g.. Kids become lethargic unable to stand & eventually unable to even hold their heads up they become flat unable to control any muscles. 
h.. Some kids run high fevers others do not. 
i.. Some kids show signs of respiratory distress some don't. Inexperienced observers may diagnose these kids as having pneumonia. 
Treatment:
a.. If caught early enough (kids that are just starting to stumble) kids can be left on their dams. Treatment needs to be continued for 3 days even if the kids act fine on day 2. 
b.. Treat daily for 3 days with: 
a.. 500mg Thiamine 
b.. 2cc penicillin 
c.. 2cc B Complex 
d.. This can be mixed together & given orally.
c.. If the kids are flat when you find them give the following in addition to the above treatment: 
a.. 1cc penicillin SQ 
b.. Electrolytes or 50% dextrose given orally do not give milk if their gut has shut down -Tube feeding may be necessary. 
c.. Probiotics mix with electrolytes to start the good bacteria going in the gut. 
d.. If the kids are out with their dams be careful they don't get out in the sun & try to cook. These kids tend to seek out the sunny spots & dehydrate quickly. 
e.. If the kid's gut is full and is not functioning a dose of Pepto-Bismol and/or baking soda will help. 
f.. If the kid is flat: 
a.. Prop him up on his brisket & hold his head & neck up with a rolled up towel 
b.. Keep kids hydrated tube feed electrolytes or 50% dextrose. 
c.. Withhold milk until the kids has been up and moving well for 8 hours. 
d.. Don't let him get too cold or too hot.


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## lava (Nov 12, 2007)

With what? Strongid. I dewormed him because of the first "fading" incident--it took almost a week for my registration here to complete and I didn't have anyone to ask, so I went based on past experience. BTW, I'm not a newbie or an idiot; nor am I a seasoned expert. But anyway, the dewormer was not the cause of it. 

I can't find any reference on Ivomec contraindicated in babies; for future reference, can you show me? Is this something recoverable from?

I should clarify--he's not "that bad" and could pass for a normal kid sometimes. He's not down, he's not totally not sucking, etc. He is pooping again and has gut noises. 

He got some of the colostrom-substitute but no real colostrom, just FYI. 

I can add the vitamin E--but can't you overdose on this? His symptoms don't seem to match what I read for WMD--but I could do the BoSe--what dosage and can't you OD on that? 

Again, he is sucking. He's playing and jumping when he's feeling good. But then he gets weaker every so often. 

Yes, but I gave the clear fluids and the rest to help get his gut started again. It's not like I'm giving it on a daily basis. He gets goats milk replacer normally. 

Also, please be sure you understood--his buddy, goat #2, is the one with the neuro issues (he might have WMD--more on his symptoms later--have a squirming toddler in my lap and am trying to get a quick reply done--E and BoSe for him too? Again, can you OD on these? Also, he's 5 weeks old--as an orphan, can/should I vaccinate him yet?

Incidentally, #2 is having diarrhea--almost a week after a gradual feed switch (he was getting milk and buttermilk and such in a homemade formula rather than powdered goat milk substitute). #1 has had diarrhea on and off--he had a little about 12 hours after his gut last restarted (with normal poop initially)--and is now back to normal. 

Our local suppliers don't have a lot on hand or know much about goats--they're just not popular around here (SC) and the large goat breeders I've called seem more clueless than the vets. 

I don't think it sounds much like floppy kid syndrome either--again, he's not that bad. Goat #1 with the periodic "fades" has no neuro symptoms. Goat #2 has some--stiff, uncoordinated when startled (not like a fainter though), that type thing--but sucks well. He doesn't play or act "normal" as much as goat #1 but does sometimes. The lady I got him from thought he was partially blind. I think it's just that increased startle that made them think so?

More later.
Thanks.
-Lava


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## lava (Nov 12, 2007)

Also (brief reprieve from toddler) I was considering just trying FloCillin or similar to provide broad spectrum antibiotic coverage (fading puppy/kitten syndrome has been shown to be some bacteria, I think GBS?). But was hoping for a more specific treatment.

Also more on vitamin/mineral supplements. Should I just give him a B-complex shot, BoSe, etc.? What about the vit E? I don't want to overdose him. The need for selenium makes sense though it doesn't match the symptoms I don't think...?

Thanks again.
-Lara


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

I have to agree with Vicki that kid #1 is the way he is because he got no colostrum at birth. You said he was found in the field the day after he was born. Baby goats need goat colostrum within the first 12 hours of life in order to have the immunity they need. Also, PLEASE switch this kid from milk replacer to goat milk or whole cow's milk. The first year I raised goats, I used replacer and had nothing but problems with the kids - scours, bloat, poor immune response and failure to thrive. This poor little guy already has a compromised immune syste, and would do better on real milk. 
Goats can OD on too much BoSe. Give him 1/2cc subQ. He doesn't need antibiotics unless he develops a fever. Goat #2 is old enough to begin his CDT shots. I also have a neurologically impaired kid. I've given her BoSe and Thiamin. What's important with these kids is to be sure they are eating drinking and pooping OK. I have to watch mine to be sure the other goats she's in with are allowing her to eat, as these animals are more likely to be bossed around by the others. As my kid grows, her problems don't seem quite as severe and she receives no medications, however, she still does not play the same as the other kids.


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

I am a seasoned veteran, and I'd have kept #2 on the milk/buttermilk homemade formula before using a powdered goat milk sub - they're grossly inadequate. Put number 1 on milk, goats if you can get it, regular old whole cows with a little buttermilk for culture (or yogurt) if not. Goat supplies from a local supplier would be few and far between, most goat people order online. Jeffers, Valley Vet, Caprine Supply, or Hoeggers are my favorites. You can google for their web addys. I'd supply them, but you don't seem very appreciative of free info, so you can look them up yourself.

You know, given the information you supplied, I think Vickie and I gave you the right kinds of advice. It was free, and based on a combined several decades of goat ownership. You can choose to take it, ignore it, or google your symptoms and see if someone else on a website posts different advice. Picking it apart isn't going to endear you to anyone. Now that I've read your second post, I think you're overreacting to normal kid behavior in a kid that had a rough start, and nothing we told you to give it is going to hurt it. You're over medicating every imaginary symptom in a kid that needs some goat's milk or cow's milk and a lot less handling. Keep him fed if he'll eat, warm if he's cold. B complex will stimulate his appetite, he doesn't have worms, he doesn't have a well developed immune system and nothing to stimulate it, he needs some probios or active yogurt for his gut (dosage depends on what product you use, I give a tablespoon of active yogurt in a bottle to a kid that age), a CDT(2 CC) and BoSE (1 CC) because he didn't have any to start out with (no immunity or nutrition from mom). Do those things and he might live. Keep giving him a bunch of stuff he doesn't need and he'll probably die. What you think is weakness, is he stumbling? Unable to stand? Or is he just sleeping? He's a baby. A very young baby. They're not all that strong to begin with.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

BE PATIENT WITH BRAINSTORMING

When you have a board full of caring people who love goats, there are a lot of ideas, not enough information, the inability to actually *see* the goat in question, and emotions all over the place.

Brainstorming happens. Everybody is throwing out ideas based on their own experiences.

And, this is not a surprise, some of us don't read carefully the first time we look at a post. We miss things, and we mis-read things.

Be patient, everybody. We are humans, and we make more mistakes than goats.


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## Sweet Goats (Nov 30, 2005)

All I have to say is Good Luck. I hope you are able to save them. It sounds like you are the best bet around there for them.
The other thing, that I am sure you have already done. Nutra Drench. I give that to anyone that is acting a little off. It even saved a kitten that I had.


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## armeda (Aug 17, 2006)

Wonderfully put Rose!
All of you have more experience than we do. We are a bit nervous about
our 3 girls being due anytime now. It wasn't planned. Our tiny buck got loose
several times. My husband is worried about them giving birth in our drafty old barn. After reading threads on suffocation, he thinks we should bring the goats in the 
house. I don't know that that's necessary but we will definately get a heat lamp.
We will know where to come if we have any problems. They gave birth in May/June
and everything was perfect. Five little girls, all healthy, all sold. We know we 
got lucky. 
Best of luck to you Lava. You have a big heart to take in this baby. 

Armeda


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Every forum will have somebody loose their goats and barn to a fire from a heat lamp each year...wonder who it will be this year? Be careful. We use them to keep the kids dry right after birth, not warm. Your goal is not warmth, it is dry bedding. Less kids per pen, if all you have is one large stall, than do like I do, take hog panels, they are about 32 inch high 8 foot long panels, bend them into a 4 by 4 pen you can step over, and keep several kids the same size per pen. Adding younger kids to pens of even kids a week older is an accident waiting to happen. Kennels and dog houses that push kids into a corner are very dangerous. Take your flight kennels apart, use them as little doghouses with bedding in your stall as the floor, this way when they get too many in there it just pushes up. They also love to jump up on top of them. Vicki


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