# lgd problems



## mberryrfd (Apr 1, 2006)

Ok so our PYR is starting to have a few problems
We had a new kid born and she is trying to attack it.
then there is the neighbors dogs 
uesterday while I was repairng fences she got out and went straight to the thier fence and started attacking their dogs through the fencealthough no one was hurt It isnt a good thing
With LGD you are suppose to use limited commands and what nots they are suppose to look after the livestock.She will listen to me in the yard with getting her stop most things.
She shows no vicous tends towards any people that we have to our house after we let them in the yard.
but leaving her area to go after the neighbors and trying to attack the new kids will be a problem any ideas on stoping this type behavior.
She is 9 monthes old and is from a livestock family was even born in a goat pen and has been with goats all her life .


----------



## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

She is frustrated over not being able to be doggie social with the neighbor's dogs, which is probably why she is "attacking" them through the fence. She wants to say hello and play. Has this dog been properly socialized with other dogs? If she hasn't then she may be having difficulty relating to them, not necessarily being mean.

She probably wants to play with the new baby as well. What do you mean by "trying to attack it"? She is perfectly capable of killing the kid. Does she want to get to it, but is unable to? She is still a baby and is frustrated. You might try holding the kid and letting her sniff it, then giving it back to the mother and distracting the dog with some active play.


----------



## mberryrfd (Apr 1, 2006)

By trying to attack it I guess you could she would kill the kid if I wasnt there
But as I posted she will knock it off when I tell her to with the goats that is
not with the neighbors dogs
She has been with other dogs we have 3 others we only have a problem between the pyr and our female shelty who used to rule the den


----------



## okgoatgal2 (May 28, 2002)

has the pyr been fixed? that's something to consider. and, pyrs like to expand their territory, so she may be thinking that fence is her territory and the neighbors dogs are trying to infringe on her space.


----------



## dezeeuwgoats (Jan 12, 2006)

I'm not sure I understand: Is the dog attacking the goat kid aggressively, or playing too rough and escalating the play? Birthing time is a highly emotionally charged time for an lgd pup. The smells, and instincts can be overwhelming and confusing. You must be there to guide her, and extinguish any wrong behaviors on her part. If she is bonded to the dam - maybe she feels the kid caused her pain? Or maybe she needs an introduction to the suddenly appearing 'new' animal on her territory? 

I EXPECT a good lgd to be dog aggressive. Canines are predatory. My dog is especially vigilant when there are newborns and babies of any type born here. Shorter fuse, more barking, and escalates situations more quickly. Less tolerant of any potential threat. 

Most lgd's are more tolerant of dogs that are 'supposed' to be there, as in neighboring yards. Due to the new birth -she could be being hyper vigilant. Or she could just not have the discernement of an older dog.

The thing is - you MUST keep them in their own yard at least that first year. You don't want them learning they can get out -as they will tend to expand their territory. You don't even want getting out to be an option in their minds. A full grown, mature anatolian male with excellent guarding ability can effectively guard 50 acres on his own. If you can keep them in that first year - they tend to stay in. Not sure about pyr in this regard.

Good luck training your puppy! There are many emotional highs and lows, raising a lgd pup, especially the first time. There were times I just KNEW we'd have to put ours down. Thing is - we often misinterpreted his behaviors. Some things we thought were awful - where actually good guardian instincts! The following website has some great articles - just scroll down. http://www.luckyhit.net/anatolia.htm
niki


----------



## mberryrfd (Apr 1, 2006)

She appears to want to attack.
isnt the way she plays with the goats There is one goat which seems to enjoy playing with her no matter how much I try to stop it it is fruitless
Could be it all being new to her. 
As far as the neighbor dogs I dont want to get her used to them as they get out of there yard regularly and ours rarely as soon as she finds a new spot iitis fixed immediatly
I will try a new intro to the new kid. We have more kids due soon and need to stop the trend


----------



## dezeeuwgoats (Jan 12, 2006)

If I had a dog acting aggressively (ie not playing rough, but growling, barking, etc) towards a kid - I would extinquish that behavior immediately. NOT acceptable! I would make the dog submit by making a really big deal about it. Now, my dog knows that I am alpha - and will listen when I 'rant and rave' and go ballistic by dropping and showing signs of submission. It took work to get there. Two years of consistent work. 

Becoming alpha (and all adults and children in your home should be) seems to be the key to working with lgd's. We had multiple problems with our pup - but doing that one thing resolved many of them - killing multiple birds with one stone. One thing I really had to work on - was after correcting - and continued correction until the proper behavior was achieved...........the MOMENT he stopped the bad behavior and did the right thing I completely changed my tone and became very loving and sweet. These dogs are smart! They learn very quickly that when they've done something wrong they want to get to the 'sweet' part as fast as they can! After doing this a bazillion times, it is ingrained in the dog's mind, how to respond to you - without hesitation. So, if you tell her to stop being aggressive to the kid, and she stops and looks at you, go crazy, sweet with a loving voice, telling her how good she is. Anytime she is behaving wrong, correct her with a harsh, firm voice. The second she sits down (sign of submission), lowers her head, turns towards you, etc - praise her.

I NEVER allowed my dog to 'play' with the goats in any way, shape, or form. If I ever 'caught' him at it - he was severely scolded, and put in 'time out', which is the severest form of punishment for an lgd. (separation from flock) Someone was always there to watch him interact with the goats. It is natural for lgd who has bonded with the livestock to want to play - but crucial to not allow it. Goats do not have the vocalizations that puppies do. A puppy cries when it gets hurt, signaling that the rough play time is over. A goat kid cannot do so, and the dog can get too rough. 

I know I'm coming across strongly here - I have had good training myself! The only reason we have a great guardian dog right now is due to the breeder at the website link I posted. Our dog is not from him, or his breeding, but he cared enough to help us raise ours, spending hours and hours with us. Everything I know - I learned from him!
niki


----------



## mberryrfd (Apr 1, 2006)

not souinding harsh a bit 
I have sucessfully trained dogs before but not for LGD so the training for it is new to me.
When i get on her in a harsh voice she does listen stop and drop a bit. 
So sounds like I am starting on the right track.and I will work with her on it.
She has been great with the rest of the family. We are currently trying to get her to behave better around the 3 year old him and the dog are the same size. so when the boy runs the LDG thinks OK lets play
and that doesnt WORK but they are both getting better together


----------



## dezeeuwgoats (Jan 12, 2006)

We did not allow our lgd to play - period. It was HARD not to. We wanted to - it was so fun to see him so happy. I know it sounds awful mean. Not goats, not kids. Play behavior often reinforces many behaviors that are easily extinguished in a lgd puppy - things like chasing, (throwing a ball, running with a kid) or biting (grabbing a ball, mouthing, or tug-o-war). While we were always affectionate and loving - we did not 'play' with our lgd. Every once in awhile he would get excited and tear around, being silly - but even so, he was not allowed to run closely to anything alive. Imagine 150+ lbs running at 25-35mph wiping out a five year old kid......or a newborn goat kid. Death or injury could result!

How is your dog about food aggression? Can you take food away from her at any time? Each member of your family should be able to do so.

Also, she is at the 'obnoxious teenage' phase. Working with her now is crucial to ending up with a dog you can live with. She will be testing, to find out if you are a worthy alpha, worthy of her respect and trust! Establishing loving dominance is the way to go - and other issues will fall into place - due to her desire to please you. 

I worked with collies and shelties with obedience growing up as a kid. I've never worked with a dog as smart as the one I now own. I did obedience training with him one time - he got the sit, down, stay and the stay down (while I walked away and out of sight) in one session, about fifteen minutes long. Needless to say - I decided to not do the repetative sessions, and give him an opportunity to 'choose' not to do what I asked him! I can see the look on his face, 'okay - now mom got stuck on repeat......she's nuts!' Thing with lgd's they can and do make choices, but you've got to be smarter than the darn dog! lol Anytime I've asked him to sit, or down, stay, or come - without a leash, in an open two acre yard - he's done it. He's over two now and well into his independance. He does this because he loves me and tolerates me, not for any other reason. After an lgd grows up - they are big enough they don't have to do anything they don't want to do! 

Note: my friend who breeds anatolians - establishes loving dominance before the pups leave his ranch! Then he works with the owners a bit to show them how to establish it. These pups are 7-12 weeks old at the time. It is alot harder and a bit more tricky the older the dogs get. Our dog was six/seven months old by the time we desperately needed Erick's help. We followed his instructions EXACTLY and ended up with a good dog. What he told us was strange to our ears, and it was difficult to believe, but it worked, and he was right. I'm not sure how much of it is breed specific or applicable to all lgd's. So take everything I'm saying with a grain of salt - that the breed I'm dealing with may have different idiosyncrisies than the pyr.

Niki


----------



## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I don't know your situation, but you could try long line work. Get a harness with a ring in the front (I'm assuming this is a large dog and you will need leverage). On a 15 foot lead, walk him out in the pasture, changing directions every few minutes. Do not speak to him or encourage him in any way. Walk in a diamond shape, a square, whatever you fancy. You decide where you are going, he doesn't. Yes, you will end up dragging him at first, but think of it as steering. Do this once or twice a day. When you are not working him, he should be kept in a small area (a backyard). Once you have him keeping an eye out for you, and this will take a few sessions, start working him on the cues he knows, heel, come, sit, down, etc. When he is solid, put him on a longer lead. He needs to listen to you when he is three feet away, or 40 feet away. Once he is solid, take him to new places and work him there. Dogs do not generalize and will need to be retrained every new place you go.

After he is doing well in your pasture, and knows the leave it command, work him on staying out of the road, leaving the neighbor's dogs alone, and leaving the goats alone (including the ones he plays with). You should be able to always call your dog off your livestock, but it is easier to have him "leave it" before he gets to the stage of being rough. You need to have thim "leave it" the new kids when he is ten feet from them, five feet from them, and one foot from them. Better to break the behavior in the stalking stage.


----------



## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

dezeeuwgoats said:


> Note: my friend who breeds anatolians - establishes loving dominance before the pups leave his ranch! Then he works with the owners a bit to show them how to establish it. These pups are 7-12 weeks old at the time. It is alot harder and a bit more tricky the older the dogs get. Our dog was six/seven months old by the time we desperately needed Erick's help. We followed his instructions EXACTLY and ended up with a good dog. What he told us was strange to our ears, and it was difficult to believe, but it worked, and he was right. I'm not sure how much of it is breed specific or applicable to all lgd's. So take everything I'm saying with a grain of salt - that the breed I'm dealing with may have different idiosyncrisies than the pyr.
> 
> Niki


Hello- I hope you don't mind me jumping in here, but I am interested in training young LGDs. Is there anywhere where I can read about your friend's techniques with his anatolian pups? It sounds very effective. Thanks!

Tim


----------



## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

dezeeuwgoats said:


> The thing is - you MUST keep them in their own yard at least that first year. You don't want them learning they can get out -as they will tend to expand their territory. You don't even want getting out to be an option in their minds. A full grown, mature anatolian male with excellent guarding ability can effectively guard 50 acres on his own. If you can keep them in that first year - they tend to stay in. Not sure about pyr in this regard.


Sheesh Niki -you are not kidding! I wish we'd done that with our dog and definitely will with the next one!

You gave excellent advice.


----------



## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

mberryrfd said:


> I have sucessfully trained dogs before but not for LGD so the training for it is new to me.
> When i get on her in a harsh voice she does listen stop and drop a bit.


One of the best things I have done with my pyr I got from the Pyr-L. When she's getting out of control and goofy (and she's just over a year so she still has these puppy moments) she is immediately put into a sit and does a couple of push ups (sit/down). Not only does this distract her from what she's doing, it also reminds her she isn't boss dog - I am.

I have worked hard, hard, hard with her and can get her to sit simply by a hand signal (although I won't expect this with every pyr) and have used it across the yard when she's getting goofy.

I would urge you to try stuff like that.


----------



## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

dezeeuwgoats said:


> We did not allow our lgd to play - period. It was HARD not to. We wanted to - it was so fun to see him so happy. I know it sounds awful mean. Not goats, not kids. Play behavior often reinforces many behaviors that are easily extinguished in a lgd puppy - things like chasing, (throwing a ball, running with a kid) or biting (grabbing a ball, mouthing, or tug-o-war). While we were always affectionate and loving - we did not 'play' with our lgd. Every once in awhile he would get excited and tear around, being silly - but even so, he was not allowed to run closely to anything alive. Imagine 150+ lbs running at 25-35mph wiping out a five year old kid......or a newborn goat kid. Death or injury could result!
> <snip>
> Also, she is at the 'obnoxious teenage' phase. Working with her now is crucial to ending up with a dog you can live with. She will be testing, to find out if you are a worthy alpha, worthy of her respect and trust! Establishing loving dominance is the way to go - and other issues will fall into place - due to her desire to please you.
> 
> ...


No Niki - as a pyr owner I couldn't agree more.

You are right one about the play -we do no play at all. We used to allow romping with our gsd and guess what, every time after a play session she'd get nippy and goofy. It's hard to keep ds from throwing stuff for her, but it is the only way. I find my pyr goes on immediate brain shut down as soon as playing starts and even very little is enough to shut off her brain.

No play, limited walks - only to areas she's allowed to go if she escapes. That might seem wierd to some people reading but every time they leave the run that area becomes part of the territory they feel responsible for. So, don't take your pyr anywhere you don't want patrolled!

I was thinking of the obedience thing with them. I had expected my pyr to take eons to train but she was pretty much as fast as my bc. The difference is - she does it if she has to or if it makes sense to her. She thinks about the commands more to decide if she really does want to do them - not because she doesn't know what to do.

I would love it if you could pm me with your friend's info. We're likely going to have an Anatolian in the future and I am looking at meeting breeders asap!

Many thanks.


----------



## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

Maura said:


> Yes, you will end up dragging him at first, but think of it as steering. Do this once or twice a day.


That is exactly how I feel - having a pyr is very similar to having a horse. On a leash I drive her like I would a team.



> You should be able to always call your dog off your livestock, but it is easier to have him "leave it" before he gets to the stage of being rough. You need to have thim "leave it" the new kids when he is ten feet from them, five feet from them, and one foot from them. Better to break the behavior in the stalking stage.


We did a lot of "leave it" where she got some tasty treat in exchange for whatever was in her mouth I wanted. We took bones, toys, treats and to be honest, whatever I wanted from her. She always got praise and something better - immediately. 

Now, she "leaves it" instantly and without fuss. The other day she'd found an egg I had missed and had made herself a litte snack out of it. She was in the middle sucking out the yummy bits when she got a leave it - and did so (with a sheepish look, I must confess!)

Ed to add - the point of "leave it" is a big one (and the original poster may already know this so sorry if this is redundant!). There is no better way to estabilsh dominance than being in charge of the food (and it helps with food aggression). Once you have that established, training is so much easier because they believe they have to listen to you.


----------



## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

are you a member of the LGD-L list or the Anatolian-L list? you might want to join them. Also contact your breeder that is what they are there for.
And who ever told you ....

>>"With LGD you are suppose to use limited commands ..."<<

please don't listen to them any more!


----------



## Rockin'B (Jan 20, 2006)

_are you a member of the LGD-L list or the Anatolian-L list?_

What is a "-L" list? I'd like to know more especially as it concerns Anatolians.

Thanks!


----------



## CountryGoalie (Aug 31, 2004)

dezeeuwgoats said:


> Becoming alpha (and all adults and children in your home should be) seems to be the key to working with lgd's. We had multiple problems with our pup - but doing that one thing resolved many of them - killing multiple birds with one stone. One thing I really had to work on - was after correcting - and continued correction until the proper behavior was achieved...........the MOMENT he stopped the bad behavior and did the right thing I completely changed my tone and became very loving and sweet. These dogs are smart! They learn very quickly that when they've done something wrong they want to get to the 'sweet' part as fast as they can! niki


We've never had any of our Kuvasz as working LGDs - our livestock is limited to rabbits, chickens, and a couple of horses, so we've never really needed to. Their presence in the kennel attached to the barn, and their crates at night, has effectively kept the coyotes from wanting to come anywhere _near_ where the rabbits and chickens are kept. _Any_way, I just wanted to affirm what Niki here said. Becoming alpha is most certainly the key. When we were still breeding and showing, it was the biggest thing my mother stressed to puppy buyers - they are not like a lab, or another "I-am-here-to-serve-you-only" breed. They need order and to learn that they are not the alpha, or else they _will_ take up the place as alpha. 

And yes, they are incredibly smart. Our house dog, Angel, always tips us off to when she's done something wrong - if we come downstairs and she pulls her ears back and starts to wiggle back and forth, as if trying to placate us, we know she's been into the cat food, or grabbed something off the counter, etc. She _knows_ she's not supposed to, and the moment we come onto the scene, even if the evidence isn't in plain sight, we know she's been up to _something_. She's crazy.


----------

