# What exactly is natural horsemanship?



## JPiantedosi (Apr 23, 2012)

I didn't want to high jack the other thread, and am not looking for a wissing match here.

I have read and heard some things about natural horsemanship over the last few years and had formed a basic idea of what I thought it consisted of..... I honestly pictured a bunch of folks smiling their horses to death and killing them with belly rubs and ear scratches till the horse just decided it would let someone ride it. I guess I just envisioned the Disney version of breaking a horse.

However I am coming to find out that what I thought may not necesarily be so. and that some of the methods we have used for years may not be too different than what NH consists of....

Can someone with experience (a seminar or 2 doesnt make you experienced), Give me a $.10 version of what Natural horsemanship is/should be? I dont need a thesis just the dime store version.

Thanks
Jim


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

Natural Horsemanship is a term coined by Pat Parelli and then tossed around and changed until they have little meaning to a horse. For me it's using the horses natural need for self preservation which it learns in the first few days of it's life. The dam is usually the teacher.

One thing it's not is "common sense". In my experience it's the exact opposite of what I would do naturally when working with a horse. One example is how most humans react naturally when a horse becomes excited in it's behavior. What's natural to a horse is not what comes naturally to a human.

That's my ten cent opinion.


Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

It's difficult to define in a condensed overview because so much of it is based on "reading" the individual horse a trainer is working with. I was fortunate enough to attend several horsemanship clinics and observe several colt starting clinics with one of the early NH instructors, Ray Hunt. What is currently termed 'natural horsemanship' is generally considered to have been founded by the Dorrance Brothers, who trained Ray Hunt, who had a big influence on trainers like Buck Brannaman. Similar methods have been in use for centuries, just not as well definited or followed. Among horsemen you will often find a big gap between what horsemen term 'horsemen' and 'showmen' ... with not a lot of respect for the latter group.

Basically, each rider (and this was in MT where most of the riders/horses were working ranch cowboys so interested in results not the cute/kissing/patting approach) brought in a 2 or 3 year old green horse and had 5 days to get them going under saddle. At the end of that 5 days, the goal was to have a horse a cowboy could go out on, check cattle and fences, be able to continue with training and have a reasonable chance of not getting bucked off.

The one phrase repeated over and over was "make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult". This sounds simplified but vague and unfortunately it is. If you are not really, truly aware of what the horse is telling you, it doesn't work well and it takes a horseman with experience to do the reading.

As an example, I was in my 30s at the time, had grown up on horses and trained horses and had always had trouble teaching a horse to back. I was asking a reasonable thing, I thought. One step back, praise. Ray Hunt watched me, stopped me and told me to watch my saddlehorn. Ask for the step back, when the saddlehorn moves backwards it is the indication that the horse is thinking 'step back' and his muscles are moving that direction. But the continued pressure on the reins makes him unsure and resistant, thinking that isn't what is wanted, so he doesn't take a full step back. I watched, released the instant that saddlehorn moved and in about 10 minutes I had a horse backing a full step each time I picked up the reins and asked for back. From there the next "ask" was for two steps. At the end of the 2 day clinic I had a horse that would back quietly half the width of the arena.

All of his training methods were similar ... be aware of the slightest 'try' on the horse's part and reward the horse by releasing the pressure. Don't restrict or try to 'force' the horse, they are a flight or fight response prey animal and the unbroke colts in the colt clinic were started in the round pen, taught to give to pressure from a halter and lead and the second day the cowboy got on the horse and was turned out in the arena, saddled, haltered but no lead rope so there was absolutely no way the rider could pull back on reins/lead. A horse's first instinct is to run, not buck and if they have their head free, unrestricted, very few of them will buck. I think I only saw 2 colts buck out of maybe 30 or 40 colts I saw started this way.

They were always started in a round pen where they could run around the pen and "away" from the instructor if they got scared at something. They ran, nothing happened, the running wasn't fun so they stopped and relaxed and the trainer goes back to work. One of the biggest misconceptions of NH training is that you 'chase' the horse around the pen. You do ... but only if the horse does not do what he's asked ... and then only long enough for the horse to understand running around the pen is more difficult than standing for something that may not be fun, but is easier than running around the pen.

I use a lot of the methods myself but I do not think the average 'hobby' rider can really understand the system and use it effectively without actually riding in at least one and preferably more clinics given by a very competent NH instructor. There are a lot of 'wannabes' out there and the clinics they give ... especially for those sitting and watching ... are not only unhelpful, they can actually put someone at risk when they try what they think they see at home. Like any other horse training method, the experience and understanding of the trainer is critical.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

levi1739 said:


> *Natural Horsemanship is a term coined by Pat Parelli and then tossed around and changed until they have little meaning to a horse.* For me it's using the horses natural need for self preservation which it learns in the first few days of it's life. The dam is usually the teacher.
> 
> One thing it's not is "common sense". In my experience it's the exact opposite of what I would do naturally when working with a horse. One example is how most humans react naturally when a horse becomes excited in it's behavior. What's natural to a horse is not what comes naturally to a human.
> 
> ...


 So very true it was a Marketing Phrase for him and others as well.
But it is nothing more then Good Old Common Sense in training methods that goes back many years.
It has been explain as was was old is NEW again that is all.
And this goes back to the days of Od timers like Monty Foreman 
Gentle ways of training was never a new or novel concept.~!
Just a nice way of making big bags of money for these horse trainers that took something from the olden days and put a fancy phrase on it and told people THIS is the way to do it, while smiling all the way to the bank.
And i have meant with and seen John Lyons in the early part of HIS positions in training, and he would come to the stable where I was at and the owner would teach HIM on how to do his type of training, which again was nothing new at all.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

arabian knight said:


> So very true it was a Marketing Phrase for him and others as well.
> But it is nothing more then Good Old Common Sense in training methods that goes back many years.
> It has been explain as was was old is NEW again that is all.
> And this goes back to the days of Od timers like Monty Foreman
> ...


My thoughts about common sense are due to my experiences with horses and how people react to them. An example would be when an inexperienced person moves toward a horses head, the horse raises it's head and the human takes it's hand away. Seem's to me that these people think that is common sense, taking the hand away when the horse raises it's head, when the opposite should have been done, leaving the hand raised toward the head until it lowers. Small point but important to a horse. I've found that often the humans natural reaction (common sense) is the exact opposite then what will lead to success.

That's the problem with human language, words often lead to misunderstanding of what is actually happening. Monte Foreman was for sure a horseman but I doubt he was very good with language skills, lol.

Hope that makes some sense to somebody, I surely don't disagree with what you've said arabian knight. It's cold outside and I find myself hanging around reading words from humans rather than spending time talking with horses.


Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

levi1739 said:


> Hope that makes some sense to somebody, I surely don't disagree with what you've said arabian knight. It's cold outside and I find myself hanging around reading words from humans rather than spending time talking with horses.
> Have fun, be safe
> Jack


 I on the other hand Do talk to my horses on clod winter days etc. By doing this:








A 7 month old Purebred Arabian filly. Notice no halter no rope, just loose in the kitchen. She went on after I owned her for 5 years and spendt this kind of time with her, to get eligible for the Nationals in English Pleasure, and Formal Driving. But 5 years of her life I set all the "ground work" for things later in life.
Or this later in my life I switched over to a small Shetland and then into mini's.








And later to even go on and "housebreak" them. LOL








And even with donkeys 








And all of them traveled with me like this:









So you see I really do spend a lot of time with my horses, to get them this relaxed, and trustful in what I will ASK them what to do, not force them.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

I have always talked horse better.... than "talking" with people. LOL
Horse's are easier to understand!


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## AugustRED (Apr 18, 2010)

I'm incline to think NH has different meanings to different people. To me it's simply taking into account how the horse thinks, what causes them to react different ways, what motivates them & teaching them accordingly in a way _they_ can understand. Some people just have a way with horses - no one has to really teach them how to handle/train, they just get it & are able to do great stuff that the rest of us need help to accomplish. And I think sometimes they don't get that we're not all like that & probably never will be, it can't be taught. So 'natural' comes naturally to them & may look like something totally different depending on the person (& many wouldn't even call it NH). Then you have a boat load of clinicans with their own twist to the concept (which is okay, we each think/learn a bit differently so need an option that works for us). So you'll get a mayrid of answers - maybe the better question is what isn't natural horse training? If we can just avoid that we'll probably be in fine shape (course there again what is natural to one may not be to another)...


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## Horseyrider (Aug 8, 2010)

For me, it's become nothing but a super annoying buzzword that bastardized the work of the early cowboys who could really get into the head of a horse. 

If you want the Real Deal, confine yourself to people like Ray Hunt and the Dorrance brothers. These folks get it. The Dorrance brothers are dead now, but they have books out that are very worthy of your time and attention.

Other than that, the term NH is good for activating my gag reflex.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Horseyrider said:


> For me, it's become nothing but a super annoying buzzword that bastardized the work of the early cowboys who could really get into the head of a horse.
> 
> If you want the Real Deal, confine yourself to people like Ray Hunt and the Dorrance brothers. These folks get it. The Dorrance brothers are dead now, but they have books out that are very worthy of your time and attention.
> 
> Other than that, the term NH is good for activating my gag reflex.


Ya really the Movie "Buck" sure tells it like it is.
And even "The Horse Whisperer" of which Buck Brannaman was on the set of also tells it like it was years ago. This should be in bold print
*Gentle ways of training was never a new or novel concept*


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Horseyrider said:


> If you want the Real Deal, confine yourself to people like Ray Hunt and the Dorrance brothers. These folks get it. The Dorrance brothers are dead now, but they have books out that are very worthy of your time and attention.


Unfortunately, Ray Hunt is dead also, will be four years now in March. He had at least one book published, but the problem with the NH trainers, Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt both included, the process itself is so much feel, observation, intuition and horsemanship the books aren't as helpful as a novice would like them to be.

I have observed at a Buck Brannaman clinic and believe he is the best of those now working. Clinton Anderson is highly thought of and what clips I've seen of him working on TV I would say he's probably very good as well. 

I've seen exhibition clinics by both John Lyons and Pat Parelli and programs on TV of several others but can't say I've been impressed by anything I've seen other than Brannaman and Anderson.

I just feel I was very, very fortunate to have been able to clinic with Ray Hunt back in the 1970s, when I was in my 30s and old enough to be somewhat 'trainable' myself.


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## Horseyrider (Aug 8, 2010)

Gosh, I don't know if I heard Ray Hunt died or not. That's a real shame and a loss for everyone.

Gotta say that what they do in public and what they do in private are sometimes two different things. I won't say anything specific on a public forum, but I will say that years ago I was shocked to see some horrible horsemanship by CA when he was unaware that anyone was watching. It was disgusting. He's one that if he came to my door, I flat wouldn't answer.

Beware of heavy editing on those ridiculous RFD-TV shows.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Yes I heard about a few years ago, sad to hear a really good one is gone.

Ray Hunt
Ray Hunt was an American horse trainer and clinician of significant influence in the natural horsemanship field. He had chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Wikipedia
Born: August 31, 1929
Died: March 12, 2009


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Being able to work with the horse's natural instincts and way of reacting and thinking requires really good ability to read the horse and good timing to add or remove pressure to shape their responses. The basics can be taught, but I'd recommend personal instruction with someone that really knows what they are doing to help with timing and correct you as you learn. Many people that know how to train a horse using its nature (which is what natural horsemanship is to me) aren't very good at explaining what they do, how or why. The reading of the horse becomes very gut level, instinctual and hard to convey to another. 

CA seems to be a good teacher, able to say what to look for, how to apply pressure and when to release it. That said he is also quite a salesman and that part has gotten me put off from watching him. There are others I like - Chris Cox, Dennis Reis, Craig Cameron (I hope I spelled them all right, its getting late!) to name a few. They are down to earth horsemen that get great results. There's a couple others whose names escape me at the moment. I'm not such a Parelli fan myself. 

I remember a man back shortly after I got out of college. He showed up in Troy, ID, in the late 70's with a gorgeous black Tennessee Walker stallion that he was working with. He was definitely of the natural horsemanship type trainer. He showed me many things about working with my young horses that I had never learned doing the more traditional type Dressage, Pony Club and some western riding. For instance, he taught me to teach my mare to drop her head for bridling, using pressure and release with a light hand. I really enjoyed the way that he worked with his horse and how the horse responded to him, but he moved on pretty quickly and I don't remember his name at all. Kinda bums me out - it would be interesting to see if he went on in the field or even became one of the names we hear today.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

GrannyCarol said:


> Being able to work with the horse's natural instincts and way of reacting and thinking requires really good ability to read the horse and good timing to add or remove pressure to shape their responses. The basics can be taught, but I'd recommend personal instruction with someone that really knows what they are doing to help with timing and correct you as you learn. Many people that know how to train a horse using its nature (which is what natural horsemanship is to me) aren't very good at explaining what they do, how or why. The reading of the horse becomes very gut level, instinctual and hard to convey to another.
> 
> CA seems to be a good teacher, able to say what to look for, how to apply pressure and when to release it. That said he is also quite a salesman and that part has gotten me put off from watching him. There are others I like - Chris Cox, Dennis Reis, Craig Cameron (I hope I spelled them all right, its getting late!) to name a few. They are down to earth horsemen that get great results. There's a couple others whose names escape me at the moment. I'm not such a Parelli fan myself.
> 
> I remember a man back shortly after I got out of college. He showed up in Troy, ID, in the late 70's with a gorgeous black Tennessee Walker stallion that he was working with. He was definitely of the natural horsemanship type trainer. He showed me many things about working with my young horses that I had never learned doing the more traditional type Dressage, Pony Club and some western riding. For instance, he taught me to teach my mare to drop her head for bridling, using pressure and release with a light hand. I really enjoyed the way that he worked with his horse and how the horse responded to him, but he moved on pretty quickly and I don't remember his name at all. Kinda bums me out - it would be interesting to see if he went on in the field or even became one of the names we hear today.


Funny thing, though I always recommend Clinton Anderson for new horsemen, I really don't like him or think much of his methods. What I think he excels at is the teaching of "timing", ie, when to apply pressure and more importantly when to release it. This is the first thing I believe we need to understand before moving on to the next important tasks which would be feel and balance.

Ray Hunt and Buck Brannamen are often mentioned here and I've done intensive studies of both. Brannamen has recently release his "seven clinics" dvds which are excellent and offer many examples of good horsemenship involving the total package of "feel, timing and balance". There are a number of dvds available which show Ray Hunt in action, both as a teacher of clinics and a trainer of horses. There are a couple of dvds also that show Tom Dorrance in a teaching situation though he isn't riding due to his advanced age. As others have mentioned, these were all excellent horsemen that could personally achieve a lot with a horse in a very limited time frame.

Todays RFD clinicians can all be seen in the Ft. Worth Ray Hunt clinics which were done in the early 2000s. It's obvious by the people attending these clinics how much regard they had for Ray Hunt and the message he was trying to show. There are so many good horsemen that use the methods passed down from the Dorrance family that it would be impossible to mention them all. A couple that people might like to investigate would be Martin Black, Peter Cambell, Buster McClaury, Brent Graef, Brian Neubert, Joe Wolter and many many more.

I've commited the last 15 years to studying and learning as much as possible about horsemenship and horses. Believe me when I say that with a little effort a person can find many excellent horsemen that far exceed the people being shown on RFD. That said, we all have to start somewhere and IMO that beginning needs a good introduction to the importance of timing when working any horse.

I've never ridden with any of these people but I study them daily and find things I can improve constantly. Horsemenship is a never ending journey that should be enjoyed and constantly evolving, hopefully with the goal always towards clarity and lightness. Ray Hunt in the 1970's was not the same as he was in 2005 and he would be the first to tell us so.

Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

levi1739 said:


> Ray Hunt in the 1970's was not the same as he was in 2005 and he would be the first to tell us so.
> Jack


One of the biggest problems I think Ray Hunt had was communicating with people. The clinics I went to were in the 70s and the thing I did notice was that most of the riders in the clinics were working cowboys/ranch hands from the region. Most of them had grown up horseback. Ray Hunt talked their language, they understood what he was trying to say because they had similar backgrounds and experience and they also picked up on the point he was making when he demonstrated what they should be looking for as a response.

The few 'non-ranch' riders in the clinics didn't seem to be tuned in as well to what he was saying/demonstrating and he didn't have the words to explain at a simpler level what they needed to be looking for/ feeling. I think he got better at this with a lot more clinics where there were more people without the background.

It was a little like me when I try to get my computer person to explain what I should be doing to get the results I want with a computer program. He's at college level but my learning level is at primary grade level. He finds it difficult to 'dumb down' the instructions so I can understand all of the necessary steps. 

I think you're looking at the same thing here because I know I'm not a good instructor with people who have never been around horses because I 'forget' to tell people some of the simple, basic steps because I learned them so early and done them so long I don't even think about them anymore.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Many have mentioned RFD and Craig Cameron.
A few years ago I had a personal invite to Watch Extreme Cowboy Racing as I knew one of the participants. This time it was held at Kansas City, and RFD TV was there taping it. And had the opportunity to meet Craig Cameron, while we were having a lunch break. LOL
Now that lady that was in that show, has gone on to do the Mustang Extreme challenges, and was even in the movie Wild Horse Wild Ride. 
Just as a side line to this. This young lady that I am talking about, her Mom would give pointers to John Lyons. John would come to the stable where I was helping out and the owner would "teach" John how to do things. Now this was in the early days of John Lyons and his clinics etc.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

SFM in KY said:


> One of the biggest problems I think Ray Hunt had was communicating with people. The clinics I went to were in the 70s and the thing I did notice was that most of the riders in the clinics were working cowboys/ranch hands from the region. Most of them had grown up horseback. Ray Hunt talked their language, they understood what he was trying to say because they had similar backgrounds and experience and they also picked up on the point he was making when he demonstrated what they should be looking for as a response.
> 
> The few 'non-ranch' riders in the clinics didn't seem to be tuned in as well to what he was saying/demonstrating and he didn't have the words to explain at a simpler level what they needed to be looking for/ feeling. I think he got better at this with a lot more clinics where there were more people without the background.
> 
> ...


I agree SFM, Ray Hunt was a roper and a colt starter which are skills that most of us don't have experience with. To see what Ray could accomplish with a 2yo borders on the unbelievable and he often had to prove his ability when he went to a new venue and was given the untrainable colts that other riders were unable to "break". Ray's skills and understanding of a horse put him in a class of his own. Problem is that most of what he said was not understood by many of his students. His direct manner of speaking might lead many to become uncomfortable leading to their missing the message he was trying to present. 

Your experience with backing is a good example. I recently had a breakthrough after fooling around with many attempts to back up a horse using no hands. The change I needed to make came from watching Buck Brannaman's dvd (watching over and over lol) and now leads me to rethink how I back up all horses. The horse doesn't change, the human must. One little change in my balance and the horse backed up like she had always done it. One thing that all good horsemen have is awareness and try. Most people aren't really interested in all the knowledge and time that must be spent to reach the higher levels of riding.

Here's a good link to some quotes and ideas from some good hands. Some folks will enjoy them while others might find them useless. Sometimes a few words can say so much.

http://www.bustermclaury.com/quotes.php

One other thing that I know about Ray Hunt. He personally would have been insulted if somebody said he used natural horsemanship.

Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Levi - I totally agree about timing. I find that timing and reading the animal are pretty much the most important tools in training a horse or a dog or whatever. I also agree that is why I mention Clinton Anderson, he can communicate some of that to a beginner. He is also very thorough and has things laid out clearly. There are so many good horsemen, but most of them are not available so easily as well.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

I agree about not being overly fond of Clinton Anderson's methods. I've watched a LOT of his shows. He can be describing what he's doing, and I STILL don't get why he's doing what he's doing, and I'm watching the horse panic and just shaking my head...

I've also watched the Parellis work, and I think pretty much the same as with Anderson's... Some of it is great, and makes perfect sense. And some of it just feels all wrong to me. 

I *have* liked most of what I've seen of Chris Cox's stuff... I think the appealing thing about his work though is that he reads the humans as well as he reads the horses, and can pinpoint issues with both - and often the human is most of the problem.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

To me, it means simply teaching the horse in his language, as best we can speak it. It's working within the horses own set of rules. It's putting yourself in part of their society. Changing yourself to fit that piece of it that is their leader as best you can and using that position to augment their behavior to what you want it to be. Doing so, you can refine things to the point that everything flows and the horse is calm and responsive at the same time.

Your horse comes to enjoy the time you spent with him, but he is not spoiled or interested in you for treats. Instead, he enjoys the comfort of your leadership and the challenges you bring him. He respects you as superior both mentally and physically (so he thinks).

Label that however you want, but to me, it's the only way to deal with a horse. People who force horses are doing things wrong and people who will not stand up and be the boss and give correction, even harsh correction at times, are doing it wrong. You are the boss and there is nothing wrong with that. But be wise about it, know what the horse knows and what he doesn't. Know what he can take and what he cannot. Know that you are *teaching* and always think tomorrow and always be consistent.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GrannyCarol said:


> Being able to work with the horse's natural instincts and way of reacting and thinking requires really good ability to read the horse and good timing to add or remove pressure to shape their responses. The basics can be taught, but I'd recommend personal instruction with someone that really knows what they are doing to help with timing and correct you as you learn. Many people that know how to train a horse using its nature (which is what natural horsemanship is to me) aren't very good at explaining what they do, how or why. The reading of the horse becomes very gut level, instinctual and hard to convey to another.
> 
> CA seems to be a good teacher, able to say what to look for, how to apply pressure and when to release it. That said he is also quite a salesman and that part has gotten me put off from watching him. There are others I like - Chris Cox, Dennis Reis, Craig Cameron (I hope I spelled them all right, its getting late!) to name a few. They are down to earth horsemen that get great results. There's a couple others whose names escape me at the moment. I'm not such a Parelli fan myself.
> 
> I remember a man back shortly after I got out of college. He showed up in Troy, ID, in the late 70's with a gorgeous black Tennessee Walker stallion that he was working with. He was definitely of the natural horsemanship type trainer. He showed me many things about working with my young horses that I had never learned doing the more traditional type Dressage, Pony Club and some western riding. For instance, he taught me to teach my mare to drop her head for bridling, using pressure and release with a light hand. I really enjoyed the way that he worked with his horse and how the horse responded to him, but he moved on pretty quickly and I don't remember his name at all. Kinda bums me out - it would be interesting to see if he went on in the field or even became one of the names we hear today.



GC...were you in Pony Club in the Palouse Club?


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I think of it as thinking like a horse, reacting like a horse, and using the horse's own equine reward/punishment methods to work with him. For instance, the old tried and true "he who moves his feet first, loses." "She who controls the food, controls the herd." "Kicking or biting at your herd leader (meaning the human here) gets immediate and terrifying punishment as well as banishment for a period of time." And so forth. Much can be learned by watching the herd itself. Buddy, God rest his sweet soul, was a smallish Arab who ruled his field with the twitch of an ear and a certain look, or by swinging his butt at someone but rarely ever making contact...he didn't need to.


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## loli (Aug 14, 2011)

I never had a "high" opinion of Clinton Anderson, until I watched a couple of his clinics. He got me hooked, I try to use a lot of his methods when I can remember. They have never failed me, you can buy some of his DVD's on E-bay or sometimes Amazon.

I also have a book by Ray Hunt and by Buck Branamen (spelling?) I have read some articles about the Dorrance brother but never got a chance. I have attended a Parelli clinic and he is way to busy selling himself (IMHO).


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

beccachow said:


> I think of it as thinking like a horse, reacting like a horse, and using the horse's own equine reward/punishment methods to work with him. For instance, the old tried and true "he who moves his feet first, loses." "She who controls the food, controls the herd." "Kicking or biting at your herd leader (meaning the human here) gets immediate and terrifying punishment as well as banishment for a period of time." And so forth. Much can be learned by watching the herd itself. Buddy, God rest his sweet soul, was a smallish Arab who ruled his field with the twitch of an ear and a certain look, or by swinging his butt at someone but rarely ever making contact...he didn't need to.


Very true and I think this is why many people actually do have problems with the NH methods, they simply don't understand horses well enough to read them accurately or understand how 'corrections' work in the horse herd.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

I'm going to quote a true master here, one that Ray Hunt learned from. Most of us are trying to do the exact opposite when we work with a horse.

"It seems that it's the life in the horse that causes lightess to be in him. It's that, added to his self-preservation instincts, that are the real cause of lightness all right. The way he uses his strength and collects himself up for some quick moves, why all this seems to come from the same place too, and I'd say that it comes from his life. The best thing, of course, is not to take the lightness out of him in the first place."

The author would call this actual fact, but few ever achieve it. Most of us are unable to leave the life in the horse. If you watch RFD you will see the removal of a horses life often, with constant examples of de-sensitizing.

Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

levi I was flipping through channels and saw a guy on RFD with a horse and a gigantic beach ball. WHile I was impressed with what he was doing, I agree it wasn't quite as much about NH as about desensitizing. Not sure how horses react to giant bouncing beach balls in the wild, tho.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

I did that myself once Becca. Can't say I feel good about it today but then I knew no better. I guess it's not actually wrong but really does nothing for the horse. I've since apologized to that mare but she still lacks life which I blame myself for. All the good horsemen admit to ruining a few horses before they caught on. Of course some never catch on.

Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

levi, at the end of the day if the horse feels safe with you and trusts you, you have won. Whether it was desensitizing him to scary situations to improve his confidence in himself and your ability to get him safely back to the barn at the end of the day...or going out and cuddling with him under the stars and sharing mind meld moments and hot cocoa with him. Earning his trust is the absolute BIGGEST step you can make, and if you do not beat him or mistreat him to cause more fear than respect and trust, then you already understand your horse more than 90% of horse owners and NH gurus.  

I confess...when I found out that Sunny was afraid of kites, I thought it was gosh darned funny to fly kites over his field. He never associated me with the kite, but darn it watching him chase it and snort at it was funny. Well, until the day he caught it and the three amigoes out there tore it to shreds. It was awful...tattered kite pieces everywhere...oddly enough, even though he should have been desensitized to the kite after catching the thing, he is still afraid of them. :shrug: I will respect that and try not to put him into a renegade kite situation, lol.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

Natural horsemanship has about a million definitions depending on who you ask. 

My definition is using the horse's natural instincts and behavior for training purposes. To be effective at natural horsemanship, you have to know how the horse thinks. I spent lots of time in my teenage years observing horses out in the pasture (in their "natural" state), and reading books about equine social behavior and how it evolved. I have worked with several trainers (some that called themselves NH trainers, others not) and have developed a training philosophy that works for me, and is largely based on "natural" equine behavior. 

Basically, not punishing horses for acting like horses, but using their natural instincts and behavior to set them up for success. Of course that is a very idealistic description and usually easier said than done


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

It is also knowing that EVERY interaction with your horse is a test. If you don't think about it and move to the side when he is walking past you, you just put a thought into his little horsie brain about his hierarchy. If you give him his hay after he mugs you for it, again, you just lost. You may not think about it, but rest assured, THEY do. Like Troutriver said, it is easier said than done.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

What some may call a test I prefer to think of as opportunity. Losing or winning are not part of my own horsemenship ways of thinking though there was a time when I might have looked at it that way. The true masters had their own way of expressing these ideas and it's often hard to understand the meaning in their words. "Make the right thing easy" in my mind should be "make the right thing obvious" but neither phrase is original to me for sure.

One thing I do like about the term natural horsemenship is that the words may cause some folks to begin to "think" and maybe find the better way with a horse.

Have fun, be safe 

Jack


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

beccachow said:


> It is also knowing that EVERY interaction with your horse is a test. If you don't think about it and move to the side when he is walking past you, you just put a thought into his little horsie brain about his hierarchy. If you give him his hay after he mugs you for it, again, you just lost. You may not think about it, but rest assured, THEY do. Like Troutriver said, it is easier said than done.


I don't consider it a test but do feel that it is training.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

You guys definitely said it better than I did, and I agree with "training opportunity" rather than test.


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## nduetime (Dec 15, 2005)

Great thread! This was a good read, interesting with many views yet everybody remained civil. Loved it.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

beccachow said:


> It is also knowing that EVERY interaction with your horse is a test. If you don't think about it and move to the side when he is walking past you, you just put a thought into his little horsie brain about his hierarchy. If you give him his hay after he mugs you for it, again, you just lost. You may not think about it, but rest assured, THEY do. Like Troutriver said, it is easier said than done.


Becky and others have mentioned herd heirarchy and leadership. Here's a fellow's thoughts that might lead some to think about things and how it relates to our own personal horsemanship. 

"Personal Horsemenship" can I sell it, lol.

http://www.brentgraef.com/philosophy.php


Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## 40acres (Mar 15, 2013)

If you want to know about the best natural horse people watch this free documentary about a horse trainer who sold her farm to find out. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQUMAJCh1fA[/ame]


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

I think SFM pretty much hit the nail as far as "what" it is. Where guys like Clinton Anderson and Pat Parelli excel is in teaching PEOPLE how to read and react to what a horse is doing, then teaching the people how to make it easy for the horse to do the easy thing. As someone else said, most people don't react to horses in a way that is similar to how a horse reacts. It's often the direct opposite.

I haven't learned much specifically from guys like Anderson, but I've learned a lot of general things. That makes the difference to me. The fact they make oodles of money doing what they do doesn't bother me at all, good for them!


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