# they even banned him from the internet ...



## J.T.M. (Mar 2, 2008)

Holy Cow !!! O.O 
Computer science student Zach Anderson, 19, met a girl, 17, on the "Hot or Not?" app. He was from Elkhart, Indiana. She was 20 minutes over the border in Niles, Michigan. They hooked up. Once.

But it turned out the girl was really 14. She'd lied to Anderson and also in her profile. Now Zach sits in a Michigan jail, serving 90 days. When he gets out he will be on the Sex Offender Registry for 25 years.

The girls mom told a reporter that she didnât just ask the judge for leniency, "we asked him to drop the case." 

http://reason.com/blog/2015/06/16/male-teen-has-consensual-sex-with-female


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Now, I no longer look silly in telling my son to ask for I'd before he is alone with any girl he doesn't no how old they are. I just showed him this.. he's sharing it on his face book as a warning.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

kasilofhome said:


> Now, I no longer look silly in telling my son to ask for I'd before he is alone with any girl he doesn't no how old they are. I just showed him this.. he's sharing it on his face book as a warning.


I did much the same as well but it isn't just girls that lie about their age.

Young people seem quite fond of online dating sites and they can be a hotbed of problems. I've heard of stories of young men who discovered the girl they were dating was considerably younger and I've heard of young women who discovered the guy they were seeing was considerably older.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Our judicial system administers little justice, but destroys lives left and right in my opinion.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

kasilofhome said:


> Now, I no longer look silly in telling my son to ask for I'd before he is alone with any girl he doesn't no how old they are. I just showed him this.. he's sharing it on his face book as a warning.


I agree this is a great lesson for those that think the internet is so neat to be on dating sites. Nothing wrong maybe a little stiff as a lifer but you bet he should stay off the net. Just a sex predator that got spanked hard.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

arabian knight said:


> *I agree this is a great lesson for those that think the internet is so neat to be on dating sites. *Nothing wrong maybe a little stiff as a lifer but you bet he should stay off the net. Just a sex predator that got spanked hard.



What would be the difference, if he met her at a party, or the mall and she told him she was 17?

It's a tad late to poo poo online dating. For instance, match.com, one of _thousands_ of dating sites, has* 21 million members *in 30 countries.


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## TraderBob (Oct 21, 2010)

It doesn't matter if she would have signed a paper saying she was 18, the law is the law and he would have been screwed anyway. She, or he, can say whatever they want, only the letter of the law matters to the prosecution and judge.
Ridiculous...so much for him ever having a "normal" life again.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

I am very pro jury nullification..

I have 3 months jury duty

I would not have found him guilty.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

arabian knight said:


> I agree this is a great lesson for those that think the internet is so neat to be on dating sites. Nothing wrong maybe a little stiff as a lifer but you bet he should stay off the net. Just a sex predator that got spanked hard.


No online dating for him... it's hard to square dance on line. Or go fishing on the beach.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

arabian knight said:


> I agree this is a great lesson for those that think the internet is so neat to be on dating sites. Nothing wrong maybe a little stiff as a lifer but you bet he should stay off the net. Just a sex predator that got spanked hard.


How in the world do you see him as a predator?


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## CountryMom22 (Nov 27, 2014)

I'm sorry, but in this instance, HE is the victim. If she lied about her age, she misrepresented herself. OK, maybe he should have been smart enough to ask for ID, but how many kids do you know that would have been smart enough to ask? I know my kids wouldn't. Young people still believe everything that they are told, at least if it comes from someone in their own generation. Coming from someone older, they think we know nothing, we don't understand them.

She is at least as much to blame as he is. if not more so. He now has a record and she gets off scott free. This isn't justice.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

arabian knight said:


> I agree this is a great lesson for those that think the internet is so neat to be on dating sites. Nothing wrong maybe a little stiff as a lifer but you bet he should stay off the net. Just a sex predator that got spanked hard.


How in the world do you see him as a predator?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

CountryMom22 said:


> I'm sorry, but in this instance, HE is the victim. If she lied about her age, she misrepresented herself. OK, maybe he should have been smart enough to ask for ID, but how many kids do you know that would have been smart enough to ask? I know my kids wouldn't. Young people still believe everything that they are told, at least if it comes from someone in their own generation. Coming from someone older, they think we know nothing, we don't understand them.
> 
> 
> 
> She is at least as much to blame as he is. if not more so. He now has a record and she gets off scott free. This isn't justice.



I agree and apparently the girl's parents seem to agree as well.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

It's not just the internet. His and his loved ones lives will be destroyed by this. He no longer will be afforded the right to pursue happiness. His family can't let him finish the college degree he was pursuing. His criminal record will pernenantly disqualify him from pursuing multiple paid and volunteer work.

They will all have to give up access to smart phone internet and firearms and ammo, or else be in violations of giving a felon access to such under her s convic ction and federal requirements. And, he and his will become a social pariah by having to avoid even a chance discussion with a minor.

I've read tons of stories as extreme and worse than his and met plenty of people in real life walking through life under these type of oppressive restrictions. It disgusts me.

And, its one of the reasons I don't support almost any actions by our government anymore. As scary as anarchy is, it would be better than all this. At least it would give society a legitimate chance to regroup and try to set things back to some of the outstanding principles the USA was founded with.

I wish him well, and truly empathize with all of us who one way or another are living under the constant threat of all this life altering oppression.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Yet far too many automatically place all the responsibility ...not equal responsibility on the man when things go south.

Could he sue her for fraud..Or misrepresentation win that and take his case to a higher court... Or the governor should be asked to pardon him. 
Heck a few calls...emails ... for the sake of justice why just talk about how wrong this is why don't those who want to make a difference try the governor.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Gov Rick Snyder
517 -335-7858


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## Kmac15 (May 19, 2007)

Had this happen to a grandson of a friend of mine in GA about 5 years ago. He was 19, she said she was 18 and was really 15. He got 5 yrs and has to register.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

He's not a predator based on the scenario provided, he let a part of his anatomy think for him and got caught. The bottom line is that she was substantially underage, and had to have looked young, so if he had used his brain to think he would have realized something wasn't right. Young girls lie, especially young girls looking for love.

I don't think he belongs on the sex offender registry either, and there is going to have to be reform so this doesn't continue to happen.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I'm confused by this whole offender list anyway...

The kid went to prison.. so he gets out. He's paid his debt to society... Why put them on a list that keeps them bound the rest of their lives?

We don't make kidnappers or murderers get on a list...


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> The bottom line is that she was substantially underage, and had to have looked young, so if he had used his brain to think he would have realized something wasn't right.


I disagree. I have seen plenty of 14 year olds that could pass for 17 or even 21.
That's why you MUST show Id to buy cigarettes and booze even when you are in your 50s
For a inexperienced 19 year old to divine less than 3 years difference without mistake is to expect miracles.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> I disagree. I have seen plenty of 14 year olds that could pass for 17 or even 21.
> That's why you MUST show Id to buy cigarettes and booze even when you are in your 50s
> For a inexperienced 19 year old to divine less than 3 years difference without mistake is to expect miracles.


He had a choice, right? He chose poorly, did something illegal, and got caught. 

Using your example, perhaps asking for an ID would be a good idea?


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

J.T.M. said:


> Holy Cow !!! O.O
> Computer science student Zach Anderson, 19, met a girl, 17, on the "Hot or Not?" app. He was from Elkhart, Indiana. She was 20 minutes over the border in Niles, Michigan. *They hooked up. Once.*
> 
> But it turned out the girl was really 14. She'd lied to Anderson and also in her profile. Now Zach sits in a Michigan jail, serving 90 days. When he gets out he will be on the Sex Offender Registry for 25 years.
> ...


That link wouldn't open for me so I couldn't read what was on it but the title on the link displayed indicates they had consensual sex.

Did he have sexual intercourse with the girl on that one occasion that they met?

If he had sex with her on their first meeting then that means that sex was his intent and obtaining sex was the sole purpose of him meeting up with her. 

Did he pay her for her sexual services? No? Then he is a predator who took advantage of a stupid young girl in more ways than one. 

He is a sexual predator no matter what her age is and no matter if it was consensual sex. She could have been 30 years old and lied about her age, if he had sex with her on their first meeting then he would still be a sexual predator because free sex was all he was after.

If they did not have sex, if all they did was meet face to face with no intention of having sex and he did no harm to her then it shouldn't matter if she lied about her age or not.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> The bottom line is that she was substantially underage, and had to have looked young,


No, I can show you plenty of 14 or 15 year old's that can pass for 18 or 19.


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2015)

Fennick said:


> That link wouldn't open for me so I couldn't read what was on it but the title on the link displayed indicates they had consensual sex.
> 
> Did he have sexual intercourse with the girl on that one occasion that they met?
> 
> ...


So sex on the first date automatically makes the male a predator. Very strict one-sided rules you have there. Would not her falsifying information and meeting the young man to gain the attention she wanted make her the predator?


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

dlmcafee said:


> So sex on the first date automatically makes the male a predator.


Yes. He made an appointment to meet with a stranger for the purpose of having free sexual intercourse. That makes him a sexual predator.



dlmcafee said:


> Very strict one-sided rules you have there.


Yes. 



dlmcafee said:


> Would not her falsifying information and meeting the young man to gain the attention she wanted make her the predator?


Yes, she is a predator too. What she did could be defined as entrapment and if she had been older she could have been charged with entrapment. However, since she is a minor she can't be charged with entrapment. The best the law can do to make an example of her crime is to make an example of his crime which was to arrange a meeting to obtain free sex from a stranger who turned out to be a minor.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I have very little opinion on the story itself as I think there is plenty of blame to go around.

But if a poster says that a woman who gets drunk and has sex when she is unable to understand what is going has put herself in that position and so the man is not to be blamed for rape, why has this man, who has put himself in the position of this happening, not to blame when he got more trouble than he was looking for?


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2015)

Fennick said:


> Yes. He made an appointment to meet with a stranger for the purpose of having free sexual intercourse. That makes him a sexual predator.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Need to find a better crime to charge the girl with, unless she was a government official or ie: law enforcement. By the way entrapment refers to a defense tactic not usually a statutory crime. Juveniles are arrested and charged Dailey with criminal violations. You have self defined a large segment of the world as sexual predators, very good of you.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Fennick said:


> Yes. He made an appointment to meet with a stranger for the purpose of having free sexual intercourse. That makes him a sexual predator.


How do you know that? No where in the article did it state that. 

I met a girl when I was 18 that initiated sex when I just gave her a ride home from a friends house. 
Had no plans to do it. I was just giving her a ride home since it was raining, but after she reached over and..........well, we ended up having sex in my car (cars were bigger back then and I was smaller).

Was I the predator? No
So how do you get from the article that this guy went for the purpose of having sex?


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

dlmcafee said:


> ...... You have self defined a large segment of the world as sexual predators, *very good of you*.


You're welcome. 

Sexual predation on the parts of both males and females of all ages is rampant around the world today and cell phones and access to internet is what's made it so much easier for them to be predators.

Personally I think the girl in this case should also be banned from access to all internet services, just like the boy.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Fennick said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> Sexual predation on the parts of both males and females of all ages is rampant around the world today and cell phones and access to internet is what's made it so much easier for them to be predators.
> 
> Personally I think the girl in this case should also be banned from access to all internet services, just like the boy.


So the internet causes people to be sexual predators? Really?, you're sticking with that? --- really? It appears you and the judge are in total agreement. 


The judge should be booted from his position as from his response he is not competent to be a judge.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

mnn2501 said:


> How do you know that? No where in the article did it state that.
> 
> *I met a girl when I was 18 that initiated sex when I just gave her a ride home from a friends house.*
> Had no plans to do it. I was just giving her a ride home since it was raining, but after she reached over and..........well, we ended up having sex in my car (cars were bigger back then and I was smaller).
> ...


How old was she?


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2015)

Fennick said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> Sexual predation on the parts of both males and females of all ages is rampant around the world today and cell phones and access to internet is what's made it so much easier for them to be predators.
> 
> Personally I think the girl in this case should also be banned from access to all internet services, just like the boy.


Then why not add her to the sex offenders registry also, but neither could be done, she did not fall under the purview of the court as a defendant. Bigotry of the law won the day.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

I called Rick Saunders office.
The pardon request form has to be filed by the boy and the probation system would have to be on board and it takes two years wait min. This information is state jurisdiction sensitive.

If the boy....man files then calls will aid him

Fyi.... the governor's office is getting calls on this... mine was not the first.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

mnn2501 said:


> I met a girl when I was 18 that initiated sex when I just gave her a ride home from a friends house.
> Had no plans to do it. I was just giving her a ride home since it was raining, but after she reached over and..........well, we ended up having sex in my car (cars were bigger back then and I was smaller).
> 
> Was I the predator? No





Fennick said:


> *How old was she?*


Crickets?

Come on man, it's an easy answer, multiple choice. There are three answers:

1) - _I don't know, I didn't bother to ask. ...... _Wrong answer, and criminal negligence on your part for not establishing her consensual age.

2) - _Under the age of consent. ....... _Again, wrong answer, and considered statutory rape.

3) - _Not under the age of consent. ....... _Then what's your point, and who cares?


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## carasel (Dec 31, 2009)

I just called Gov Rick Snyder's office. Telling him to pardon Zach Anderson. His secretary, said he had been charged under federal law. So the process of a pardon. Has to start with his parole officer. She did say she has had other calls asking for a pardon. and all the calls will be considered in the decision. 
Drop a dime folks!! Help this young man. Gov Rick Snyder 517 -335-7858


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Fennick said:


> If he had sex with her on their first meeting then that means that sex was his intent and obtaining sex was the sole purpose of him meeting up with her.
> 
> Did he pay her for her sexual services? No? Then he is a predator who took advantage of a stupid young girl in more ways than one.
> .



You seem to have a ton of bias in this. 
You see a neutral observer would think that sex was her objective more than his. 

Remember she is the one that lied and cheated to arrange the meeting. 
He on the other hand appears to have been a honorable young man trying to tell the truth and obey the law. 
Usually if someone is lying and cheating to obtain a objective they have a stronger chance of obtaining that objective. 
Thus if there is a predator here it's most likely the girl. 

In the end this entire thing is about people's belief in magic numbers. 
There is no magic in 14 many at 14 are fully capable adults , there is no magic in 19 many at 19 have no comprehension of the full extent of their actions.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Fennick said:


> How old was she?


What difference does it make for the purposes of this conversation? 
- does that change who initiated sex? no
- does that change the fact that all I was doing was taking a girl home so she wouldn't have to walk in the rain? no
- does that change the fact that I was not even thinking about sex before she initiated the act and would have happily dropped her off at her apartment door and went on my way? no

Sorry I didn't answer you for a whole 2.5 hours -- I do have a life outside this board. Do you sit on this thread just watching for something to comment on all day and nite?

What? No answer yet?


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

The way I see it there is no difference. Different times but similar situations. On each occasion you have a girl of questionable age with loose morals and no sense of responsibility offering free sex to a boy with equally loose morals and no sense of responsibility who doesn't question her age but is happy to accept the offer of free sex from jailbait strangers.

If both girls were under the age of consent and the boys had sex with them then the boys are both guilty of statutory rape even if the girls were willing. Statutory rape is nothing to brag about and there is no excuse for it. Not even ignorance is an excuse because every boy of 18 or 19 knows exactly what statutory rape is and he should at least know what the age is of the teenage stranger that he's getting his free sex from.

Both boys got off easy. The nerd who got 90 days and his name on the sex offender list could have gotten a lot worse, a year or more in jail for statutory rape plus a really rough time of being a bum-boy constantly getting raped by older inmates in prison. The only reason he got off easy is because the jailbait girl deceived him from the get go. The judge was being lenient with him.

As for the boy who gave the stranger a ride home and presumably accepted her offer of free sex with or without ascertaining her correct age - he had loose morals and no responsibility then and since he's bragging about it here on internet and is making excuses for the nerd who did get caught, he obviously still has loose morals and poor sense of responsibility as an adult. He got off easier than the other guy because he didn't get caught but he should be careful of what he brags about on internet.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

How many members here posted about having sex with a female with out stating the age.... I can only come up with one..

Seems like a pretty personal attack..

Loose morals and a threat about posting...... oh well that's my thoughts on it.


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## kuriakos (Oct 7, 2005)

Fennick said:


> Yes, she is a predator too. What she did could be defined as entrapment and if she had been older she could have been charged with entrapment. However, since she is a minor she can't be charged with entrapment. The best the law can do to make an example of her crime is to make an example of his crime which was to arrange a meeting to obtain free sex from a stranger who turned out to be a minor.


I suspect you are not in the U.S. since that is not how it works here. Entrapment is not a crime anywhere I am aware of, certainly not in Michigan where the incident in question happened.

Even if there is some place where entrapment is a crime, your hypothetical doesn't hold up. You say if she was not a minor she could be charged with entrapment, but if she was not a minor then having sex with her would not be illegal and thus no crime to be entrapped into.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Kmac15 said:


> Had this happen to a grandson of a friend of mine in GA about 5 years ago. He was 19, she said she was 18 and was really 15. He got 5 yrs and has to register.


I'm sorry. What a waste!


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

While I do not in any way condone what these kids did-

Searching online for a sex partner? Bad idea.

Having sex before marriage? Bad idea.

I do not begrudge them the right to do so.

And, I really think that using the word predator to describe either of them is a poor assignment of word usage. After all, there are certainly innumerable other people and circumstances that are far more appropriately titled predatory situations.

These are kids doing dumb things and learning from life the hard way. The adults who are victimizing them further by dragging them through this legal circus seem to me to be far more predatory.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

It always astonishes me how easily people feel they have the right to try, convict, and sentence others, even when it is merely in the court of public opinion.

Everyone has messes in their lives, and I doubt many honestly have had the judicial system clean it all up oerfectly for them.

So many things are handled better when resolved by only those truly involved. Yet, when people "go viral". So many people assume they have all the facts and have all the answers.

But, people really need to at least take the time to imagine themselves in others shoes, before they can truly hav empathy for understanding whether a punishment should fit a crime, or whether something even should be called a crime.

Those are my thoughts anyway.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

kuriakos said:


> I suspect you are not in the U.S. since that is not how it works here. Entrapment is not a crime anywhere I am aware of, certainly not in Michigan where the incident in question happened.
> 
> Even if there is some place where entrapment is a crime, your hypothetical doesn't hold up. *You say if she was not a minor she could be charged with entrapment, but if she was not a minor then having sex with her would not be illegal and thus no crime to be entrapped into*.


That is mostly correct. 

If she was not a minor and was closer to his own age then she probably wouldn't need to lie about her age unless for example it was a set up sting (which it apparently wasn't, it was just two stupid kids who both should have known better) whereby an older person lied about their age claiming to be younger in order to lure out a child sex predator. That's not what it was but it's something the young man _should_ have considered being a possibility when he agreed to meet with her and to have sex with her upon their first meeting.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

I sure am glad we have some perfect people who post here. So perfect they have every right to judge others without having all the facts and while making many assumptions.


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## kuriakos (Oct 7, 2005)

Fennick said:


> That is mostly correct.
> 
> If she was not a minor and was closer to his own age then she probably wouldn't need to lie about her age unless for example it was a set up sting (which it apparently wasn't, it was just two stupid kids who both should have known better) whereby an older person lied about their age claiming to be younger in order to lure out a child sex predator. That's not what it was but it's something the young man _should_ have considered being a possibility when he agreed to meet with her and to have sex with her upon their first meeting.


I think I see what you're saying. Since it's a completely different scenario than what happened, it's purely hypothetical, but that it still wouldn't be a crime here. If a police officer did it, entrapment could be a valid defense for the person lured in and arrested, depending on the details, but still wouldn't be a crime committed by the person doing the entrapping.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

gibbsgirl said:


> It's not just the internet. His and his loved ones lives will be destroyed by this. He no longer will be afforded the right to pursue happiness. His family can't let him finish the college degree he was pursuing. His criminal record will pernenantly disqualify him from pursuing multiple paid and volunteer work.
> 
> They will all have to give up access to smart phone internet and firearms and ammo, or else be in violations of giving a felon access to such under her s convic ction and federal requirements. And, he and his will become a social pariah by having to avoid even a chance discussion with a minor.
> 
> ...


Anarchy doesn't scare me. I survived Obama.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Fennick said:


> Yes. He made an appointment to meet with a stranger for the purpose of having free sexual intercourse.


Whoa buddy...if we could see a show of hands right now for predators according to that definition.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

He broke the law. All men know that it is illegal to have sex with underage girls. Every.single.one. He did anyway either through ignorance or he just didn't care/didn't think he'd get caught. 

Would jail time have been better? He could have done actual prison time for breaking the law. Did the judge use him to teach a lesson? Probably. Will it serve as a deterrent? Probably to some. 

Not the same, at all, but I'll use this as an analogy- you're walking down the street and there is a $100 bill hanging out of your pocket (unbeknownst to you) and a young guy notices it. He may follow you a little to see what you're like, if you'll fight back, whatever, or not. He approaches you, takes the $100 and runs away. You've been robbed. He's caught, do you press charges because he stole money from you or say, "It's only $100 and I didn't push the money down far enough in my pocket."? How about a child molester that only molested one kid? Still OK? Or a young man that only breaks his girl friend's arm in one incidence domestic violence?

The bottom line is the guy broke the law. Laws are meant to deter future crime and punish those that did.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Those analogies ar n't very good comparisons.

If you offered the guy the $100 and he took it and then was arrested for receiving stolen property, that might be a little more accurate.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I have some questions that have bothered me since this thread started. The girl was 14, did he pick her up at home. If so we're her parents not concerned? It just seems IMHO that a child that young would be better supervised.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gibbsgirl said:


> Those analogies ar n't very good comparisons.
> 
> If you offered the guy the $100 and he took it and then was arrested for receiving stolen property, that might be a little more accurate.


What are your concrete, in the real world suggestions to rectify this type of situation? Make it legal for anyone to have sex with underage kids? What?


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> What are your concrete, in the real world suggestions to rectify this type of situation? Make it legal for anyone to have sex with underage kids? What?


This particular case is not " a situation" that needs handling in my mind.

I don't think the legal system has a right to reasonably intrude on a huge amount of the issues it forces itself into anyway, including so called sex crimes.

People need to handle their own lives in my opinion. 

Now part of that opinion is because I have a huge problem with the fact that many of these issues have not only not been eliminate or even minimized, so the resources spent to tackle them have been wasted.

Another part is because, society has largely stopped "letting the punishment fit the crime", and we've created an entire demographic of people who have been caught, particularly early in life, doing something wrong, and effectively sentenced them to living as second class citizens the rest of their lives because of the consequences of the criminal record.

I jus a really big supporter of personal responsibility and not being dependent on others.

I don't have any problems with charitable help to others, but I don't agree with it being offered on a federal level of government and frequently think state and local is a poor option for managing support.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

This would be probably only loosely related to this type of scenario, but since you asked....

From what I read in the news and hear from friends and relatives, it seems there is a lot going on in the school systems all over that is very troubling to parents. Some of that is related to ineffective management of student populations and even access to students by staff with dishonorable intentions. Some of it is related to bullying, the ever rising costs, the debate about common core and testing and other mechanisms to deliver education. Some is related to drug dangers, some is related to the poor education and graduation rates. Some is related to violence, or exposure to sex education or birth control. Honestly, I bet lots of people could continue the list and include other things like just not liking the demands on a families time and yearly calendar, children's exhaustion levels, etc.

I'm not saying it's all bad or schools have to be completely abolished. But, these problems are frustrating and many times not improving because the system is being run in a way that seems to really be constraining the local families and communities from having a real shot at making decisions for themselves about what us right for their schools.

So, I look and listen to those problems and feel kind of bad for all those involved. But, I don't agree with being expected to have to focus on fixing it. It's a David and Goliath fight. And, ultimately, I'm not different than anybody else. On some abstract level, we all want the next generation to be prepared for success. But, the real dog in these fights are the parents who really are just all focused on wanting their kids to have a worthwhile successful education.

So, my solution? We Homeschool our kids, and spent tons of time and money to make sure we are handling it. That's realistically the best chance I have to make sure my kids get through childhood educated and prepared, and safe from some of the real dangers and unnecessary hardships that kids is a standard classroom campus face.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

As far as protecting kids from child predators, a lot of people do a pretty lousy job, and it's their responsibilty, their kids are dependent on them.

That include not being available to supervise them enough, not teaching kids how to recognize dangers and steer clear, and not being willing to make it abundantly clear to others that targeting their children is not an option that will be readily available or lead to desirable results.

It also includes teaching your kids through words and actions a solid set if standards you find acceptable,vand being sure they are aware that other people's morals, habits, views, etc may be wildly different than yours.

Now that obviously doesn't cover all dangerous or damaging scenarios a child or adult will face.

But, the reality is, if people want to "solve" a lot of problems, this would do a lot. And, as a consequence it would free up a lot of our limited resources to go after finding those people who truly must have outsiders, such as law enforcement, step in and put a stop to deviant behavior.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> He broke the law. All men know that it is illegal to have sex with underage girls. Every.single.one. He did anyway either through ignorance or he just didn't care/didn't think he'd get caught
> The bottom line is the guy broke the law. Laws are meant to deter future crime and punish those that did.



Why do you keeps speaking for everyone ?
Not every man or woman even knows any particular law. You might want to use the word MOST more. 

But the discussion here is about your basic premise being wrong most here think the man didn't break the law , that it was wrongly applied. 
You see he didn't intend to break the law. Most seem to think intent is a vital part of the law. 
He asked her age and got a reply that indicated she was a acceptable partner. He then explored that premise what else would you have him do ?
Have you required 3 pieces of ID from every man you dated ? 
OR
Did you take them at their word ?


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> What are your concrete, in the real world suggestions to rectify this type of situation? Make it legal for anyone to have sex with underage kids? What?


I am genuinely curious about your tag line that says "life is short. Break the rules. Forgive quickly...never regret things that made you smile."

After chatting with you on here and reading your posts, how do you feel that should be appropriately applied, or under what circumstances?

It honestly just has me baffled. Cause it seems to advocate intentionally breaking rules or laws of some kinds, rather than even making allowances for unintentionallunintentionally, and I really can't figure out under what xircumstances you'd find that applicable


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Why would anyone on here advocate breaking rules? That sure flies in the face of what this site should be advocating, or even supporting such behavior.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Seems to me like a couple people here would be more comfortable living under sharia law. Then they could just go lop off the males head -- or perhaps the females head too since she no doubt brought dishonor to her family.

Justice must meet mercy and consider intent and ramifications, else you have something akin to sharia law. I for one, old and decrepit though I am, would fight tooth and nails against living under that.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Can the mods weigh and let me (and others) know if the Mark Twain quote is up to HT standards, please?

Thanks.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

arabian knight said:


> Why would anyone on here advocate breaking rules? That sure flies in the face of what this site should be advocating, or even supporting such behavior.



Why is that ? This place "HT" is dedicated to breaking the rules and independence.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

gibbsgirl said:


> Searching online for a sex partner? Bad idea.



Why ?
Is there a better place ?

Moreover what makes you think they were looking for sex ? Were you looking for sex when you met Mr. Gibb ?


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> Can the mods weigh and let me (and others) know if the Mark Twain quote is up to HT standards, please?
> 
> Thanks.


I'm not a mod, but I have no problem with the quote you picked. I actually like it.

My question had to so with me having trouble gelling some of your posts with you apparently supporting that particular philosophical quote from Twain.

I'm trying to be open to listening to your own words to understand your perspective, not accusing you of violating a rule here, so you have to prove to people you're compliant with some policy by calling in reinforcements to defend you.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gibbsgirl said:


> I am genuinely curious about your tag line that says "life is short. Break the rules. Forgive quickly...never regret things that made you smile."
> 
> After chatting with you on here and reading your posts, how do you feel that should be appropriately applied, or under what circumstances?
> 
> *It honestly just has me baffled. Cause it seems to advocate intentionally breaking rules or laws of some kinds, rather than even making allowances for unintentionallunintentionally, and I really can't figure out under what xircumstances you'd find that applicable*





gibbsgirl said:


> I'm not a mod, but I have no problem with the quote you picked. I actually like it.
> 
> My question had to so with me having trouble gelling some of your posts with you apparently supporting that particular philosophical quote from Twain.
> 
> I'm trying to be open to listening to your own words to understand your perspective, not accusing you of violating a rule here, so you have to prove to people you're compliant with some policy by calling in reinforcements to defend you.


Emphasis mine. I do beg to differ.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> Emphasis mine. I do beg to differ.


I have no idea what you are trying to say here.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> Why ?
> Is there a better place ?
> 
> Moreover what makes you think they were looking for sex ? Were you looking for sex when you met Mr. Gibb ?


I don't want to place restrictions on anybody else for how they choose to meet or interract online or in real life. It's their business, not mine.

My opinion of it being a bad idea was my own. It was because, generally I believe it's a poor personal safety decision to agree to meet solo with anyone you only know from the internet, even if it's just a Craigslist sale.

I think the article was referencing them using a website called hot or not that was meant to find sex or dating partners, which I think is perfectly fine. But, I really think the parents hold majority responsibility for losing track of their kids on-line and real life activities and whereabout 

Majority, but not all. Especially because these are teens and the tragedy, I feel is that while teens are learning to be more and pendent and exercise their own judgment, cases like this show me just how little room the justice system us allowing them when they make mistakes.

And, no my husband and I were not looking for sex when we met. By that time, we both had figured out that sex was a poor foundation to build a relationship on.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2015)

The age of consent in the state this occurred appears to be 16, she passed herself as 17. She is the guilty person to me. But bigotry against the male gender runs high now, so it does not surprise me with all the negative views of the 19yo male.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

gibbsgirl said:


> My question had to so with me having trouble gelling some of your posts with you apparently supporting that particular philosophical quote from Twain.


If I may make a suggestion, you could do what so many others do. Turn off the signature lines if you find their message interferes in your ability to relate to people's contributions to discussions. Like people who have the option to put certain members on their ignore list (like you did per Kasi's instructions in the S&EP "Jade Helm" thread) you also have the option to turn off all signature lines so that the personal or political statements they appear to be making won't color your attitude towards the content and meaning of their contributions to discussions.

In many ways it's advisable to turn them off, or to not have a signature or tag line and can save people a lot of hassle and not have to question or be asked to explain the intent of a signature line. Like you have just done. I recall there was one person who had a signature line that said _"The universe is too big for only one religion"_ and the results were astounding. It was so offensive to some of the other members here they complained about it and started making a point of personally attacking and being contrary with that person every time the person posted something, even the most innocent or helpful of posts. Eventually that member was banned. Now that happened a fair while ago, but it's just an example of how prejudiced or distressed people can be when they get so distracted by signature lines that they can't relate to people's posts.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

I guess that's probably the way to go.

To me I thought there was more for her to say that perhaps could let me understand some of this stuff a bit better from her perspective.

It just seemed that that particular quote must have had some meaning for her in some way, and I thought some of this discussion was certainly considering it in the realm of a possible time in life for people to forgive these kids and help them move past it.

Since it seemed she disagreed and wanted to know more details of where my threshold was, I replied, and was curious to know hers.

But, I get it. Lots of people want to have different expectations of themselves than others.

Thanks for the tip about blocking the signature line. I'll try and figure out how to do that.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

GG

You are apparently willing to believe your husband wasn't looking for sex when he met you why don't you extend this courtesy to the 19-year-old in question. 
Your reasons for thinking Internet is bad place to meet someone seem strange. 
There is no safer place to meet somebody alone then on the Internet. They can do you no physical harm through the Internet. 
In fact meeting through the Internet adds a large degree of safety to the actual physical meeting since it gives you a chance to explore their mentality before meeting. You have the option of investigating them far more than you would if you met any place in real life.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> Can the mods weigh and let me (and others) know if the Mark Twain quote is up to HT standards, please?
> 
> Thanks.


There is nothing in violation of any rules and it's a philosophy I respect but perhaps I'm not as linear as others. 

Life is short, Break the rules, Forgive quickly, Kiss slowly, Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably, And never regret anything that made you smile. Mark Twain

I interpret breaking the rules as those we impose on ourselves, societal norms or those imposed by physical limitations perhaps but I've never heard anyone interpret this phrase as advocating breaking laws or doing anything unlawful.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> GG
> 
> You are apparently willing to believe your husband wasn't looking for sex when he met you why don't you extend this courtesy to the 19-year-old in question.
> Your reasons for thinking Internet is bad place to meet someone seem strange.
> ...


Well you're free to make whatever judgment you want about my marriage, I guess.

I don't think I'm not extending any courtesy to the kid. There is absolutely no way I think he should be facing any type of criminal or civil prosecution.
.I guess I've muddle my communication of that somehow.

Just because I feel it was not the safest choice t o meet irl after online alone, dies not mean I feel like anyone else should be banned from doing so.

You do make good points about some of the potential pros of doing so.

Do you think I am not entitled to my opinion as welwell? Especially considering I don't feel my opinion should translate to stopping others from online dating should they choose to do so?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> There is nothing in violation of any rules and it's a philosophy I respect but perhaps I'm not as linear as others.
> 
> Life is short, Break the rules, Forgive quickly, Kiss slowly, Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably, And never regret anything that made you smile. Mark Twain
> 
> I interpret breaking the rules as those we impose on ourselves, societal norms or those imposed by physical limitations perhaps but I've never heard anyone interpret this phrase as advocating breaking laws or doing anything unlawful.


Super moderator has spoken. Thank you.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

no really said:


> I have some questions that have bothered me since this thread started. The girl was 14, did he pick her up at home. If so we're her parents not concerned? It just seems IMHO that a child that young would be better supervised.


Had a close call like this guy did once. Asked a girl out that said she was 17. She wanted to meet me at the drive in. But I was taught that you went and picked a girl up out of respect for her and her parents. So I did and her dad asked me how old do y think my daughter is. I said 17 and he just laughed. He told me she must turned 13 last month. 

needless to say I left and never looked back. But even then I wondered why the dad would let her out of the house that young. Oh and pixie, she looked every bit of 17 and then some. I did quit dating girls from the other schools in the area after that.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> Had a close call like this guy did once. Asked a girl out that said she was 17. She wanted to meet me at the drive in. But I was taught that you went and picked a girl up out of respect for her and her parents. So I did and her dad asked me how old do y think my daughter is. I said 17 and he just laughed. He told me she must turned 13 last month.
> 
> needless to say I left and never looked back. But even then I wondered why the dad would let her out of the house that young. Oh and pixie, she looked every bit of 17 and then some. I did quit dating girls from the other schools in the area after that.


You did the right thing. There are many many other men that don't.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> Had a close call like this guy did once. Asked a girl out that said she was 17. She wanted to meet me at the drive in. But I was taught that you went and picked a girl up out of respect for her and her parents. So I did and her dad asked me how old do y think my daughter is. I said 17 and he just laughed. He told me she must turned 13 last month.
> 
> needless to say I left and never looked back. But even then I wondered why the dad would let her out of the house that young. Oh and pixie, she looked every bit of 17 and then some. I did quit dating girls from the other schools in the area after that.


Sounds like you both avoided state enforced punishment as well!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> You did the right thing. There are many many other men that don't.


Well I have done things I'm not proud of in my life that you know from another thread. But I had good parents. The best in my eyes but I'm biased. I do have to wonder about her dad that would let a thirteen yo go alone to the drive in. 

If someone came up to pick up my sisters and honked the horn my dad would be out there in a flash and tell them to leave. no date that night. It got around town that if you were going to go out with one of my sisters you better disconnect your horn first.


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## kuriakos (Oct 7, 2005)

no really said:


> I have some questions that have bothered me since this thread started. The girl was 14, did he pick her up at home. If so we're her parents not concerned? It just seems IMHO that a child that young would be better supervised.


You are correct it was lax parenting according to this article. http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/local/was-justice-served-after-teen-s-encounter-with-girl/article_bede1df7-505d-5d39-b9d8-256719f553d9.htm

"When the Niles girl came down the stairs early one December evening all made up and her hair looking especially nice, her mother said, "Dang! Where are you going?"
The girl, who struggles with epilepsy, didn't answer. Her mother assumed she was merely heading down the street, so the mother decided to give her daughter space.
Outside the house, the girl climbed into a car with 19-year-old Zachery Anderson."


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

gibbsgirl said:


> Sounds like you both avoided state enforced punishment as well!


Well I did anyway. She ended up pregnant about six months later and the dad went to jail. I really wasn't trying to have sex with her anyway I just thought she was cool lol. But she got off Scott free. After she became pregnant she was emancipated which made her a non minor. 

Funny how the law works.

And fate


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> Well I have done things I'm not proud of in my life that you know from another thread. But I had good parents. The best in my eyes but I'm biased. I do have to wonder about her dad that would let a thirteen yo go alone to the drive in.
> 
> If someone came up to pick up my sisters and honked the horn my dad would be out there in a flash and tell them to leave. no date that night. It got around town that if you were going to go out with one of my sisters you better disconnect your horn first.


We did the same thing, you came in to meet us when you picked up one of our daughters.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

gibbsgirl said:


> Well you're free to make whatever judgment you want about my marriage, I guess.
> 
> 
> Do you think I am not entitled to my opinion as welwell?


I have made no judgment's about your marriage , well I don't think I have.

As for the other question,no.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> He broke the law. All men know that it is illegal to have sex with underage girls. Every.single.one. He did anyway either through ignorance or he just didn't care/didn't think he'd get caught.


"Every single one" is a bit presumptuous of you, but lets say you are correct on that point "most" of the time.... How many men do you think are qualified to tell the difference between a 17 year old and 18 year old girl with any real accuracy just by looking at them? I know several 14 and 15 year old gals that can walk into most any liquor store and buy what they want with out their age even being questioned! I also know some thirty somethings that get carded for a pack of cigarettes. This young feller was misinformed as to the girls age, and her appearance may well have indicated she was in her twenties. I have been an avid "girl watcher" for over 50 years and still have trouble guessing a ladies age.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> "Every single one" is a bit presumptuous of you, but lets say you are correct on that point "most" of the time.... How many men do you think are qualified to tell the difference between a 17 year old and 18 year old girl with any real accuracy just by looking at them? I know several 14 and 15 year old gals that can walk into most any liquor store and buy what they want with out their age even being questioned! I also know some thirty somethings that get carded for a pack of cigarettes. This young feller was misinformed as to the girls age, and her appearance may well have indicated she was in her twenties.


So you card everyone you have sex with. Otherwise you take your chances. Parents should be teaching this.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> "Every single one" is a bit presumptuous of you, but lets say you are correct on that point "most" of the time.... How many men do you think are qualified to tell the difference between a 17 year old and 18 year old girl with any real accuracy just by looking at them? I know several 14 and 15 year old gals that can walk into most any liquor store and buy what they want with out their age even being questioned! I also know some thirty somethings that get carded for a pack of cigarettes. This young feller was misinformed as to the girls age, and her appearance may well have indicated she was in her twenties.


He's paying for the inaccuracy of guessing her age, isn't it? He still did something illegal, yes?

I guess it should be like the grocery store- if you look under such n such an age be prepared to be ID'd. Better safe than sorry.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> So you card everyone you have sex with.


LOL NOOOOO!! I have always "walked on the edge" I guess.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> He's paying for the inaccuracy of guessing her age, isn't it? He still did something illegal, yes?
> 
> I guess it should be like the grocery store- if you look under such n such an age be prepared to be ID'd. Better safe than sorry.


Technically yes, he may have broken the law... I am not sure just what the age of consent is in the state he committed his "crime". In my state it used to be 14, not sure what it is today, havent had much reason to care for a good many years.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> LOL NOOOOO!! I have always "walked on the edge" I guess.


Is carding teenagers before you have sex with them a line you walk these days?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> We did the same thing, you came in to meet us when you picked up one of our daughters.


Mine too.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Is carding teenagers before you have sex with them a line you walk these days?


:umno: I am pretty sure my Yvonne has passed the age of consent.... I have seen her drivers license and her passport.... and her parents have confirmed her birthdate for me.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> :umno: I am pretty sure my Yvonne has passed the age of consent.... I have seen her drivers license and her passport.... and her parents have confirmed her birthdate for me.


So what would you tell your grandchild? Take your chances?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> So what would you tell your grandchild? Take your chances?


My grandchildren are grown women.... in their late twenties and early thirties, they all pretty much take care of themselves.


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## kuriakos (Oct 7, 2005)

The guy did break the law and he should learn a lesson from it. Because of the circumstances, however, he was a perfect candidate for leniency in sentencing. It appears the judge chose to forego that based on inaccurate information. There's a good chance this will eventually work out in the young man's favor in terms of the sex offender list and possibly even getting the conviction overturned since the prosecutor apparently broke the terms of the plea deal. But it's going to cost him a lot to get it straightened out both in terms of money and lost opportunity, so that lesson will go extra deep.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

I'm pretty sure he's going to learn a lot more lessons about what society and the govt is willing to do to you than anything related to him leading a flawless sex life going forward.


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## kuriakos (Oct 7, 2005)

Probably so, but I bet he will be a lot more careful about his sex life now. As silly as the suggestion of checking IDs sounds, I bet he'll do it.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

kuriakos said:


> Probably so, but I bet he will be a lot more careful about his sex life now. As silly as the suggestion of checking IDs sounds, I bet he'll do it.


We train bartenders and liquor store clerks to check ID's. Should be simple to train our children. Sounds more silly to not check and end up in jail.


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## J.T.M. (Mar 2, 2008)

Predator !!! 
 Are we really going to pretend that this frisky kid is a predator ~facepalm~

Iv met a few true predators in my life and this kid doesn't even come close to
qualifying . 
I wonder ... would we be calling a girl a predator if the roles were reversed ? 
: A young J.T.M. ( with beer ) standing next to a realdeal predator Im sure a lot of NewYorkers would recognize


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## kuriakos (Oct 7, 2005)

painterswife said:


> We train bartenders and liquor store clerks to check ID's. Should be simple to train our children. Sounds more silly to not check and end up in jail.


Takes a bit away from the romance to be checking IDs, but I don't know if the kids are looking for romance these days. Probably not the ones looking for sex on the first meetup.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

kuriakos said:


> Takes a bit away from the romance to be checking IDs, but I don't know if the kids are looking for romance these days. Probably not the ones looking for sex on the first meetup.


Better to check id that be romanced inthe local prison.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Better to check id that be romanced inthe local prison.


Yep, not a big fan of brotherly love. Especially not the prison kind.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

kasilofhome said:


> Now, I no longer look silly in telling my son to ask for I'd before he is alone with any girl he doesn't no how old they are. I just showed him this.. he's sharing it on his face book as a warning.




The word is getting out about this..


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## kuriakos (Oct 7, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Better to check id that be romanced inthe local prison.


That kid looked like he might be popular in prison. Though I hope he didn't/doesn't (unclear on whether his sentence is ongoing or over) receive any unwelcome romance while there.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

kasilofhome said:


> The word is getting out about this..


Yes, my thirteen YO granddaughter (lord help me) heard about it too. I have custody of her and it scares the heck out of me.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> So you card everyone you have sex with. Otherwise you take your chances. Parents should be teaching this.


I sure did but the big problem that comes into that equation is that if the gal doesn't drive, the only identification she can provide is a birth certificate and that has no picture so it could be a friend or older sister's identification, which also won't stand up in court.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> I sure did but the big problem that comes into that equation is that if the gal doesn't drive, the only identification she can provide is a birth certificate and that has no picture so it could be a friend or older sister's identification, which also won't stand up in court.


That is a new wrinkle and a scary one. What about school ID


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Would a bar accept it?... if not the why should anyone else with a reason to know the truth accept it.... no acceptable ID that is a no go sign.. and no mean as no.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> That is a new wrinkle and a scary one. What about school ID


I can't answer that because our schools are not big enough to give any school ID so I honestly don't know if they have pictures or if they provide date of birth. I counseled my boys to ID because of statutory rape laws and my suggestion was that if a gal didn't have a driver's license, it was a good idea to walk away. They claim they followed my advice and none ended up in jail.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Let's take this thread over to single tree and see if the singles there think a request for multiple ID a drug screen and a pre dating agreement might impede romance.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Am .do it..see what the say.


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> Gov Rick Snyder
> 517 -335-7858


I am calling tomorrow (today is Sunday).


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

So, if a 13 yo girl has a fake ID that says she is 17, what then?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Riverdale said:


> So, if a 13 yo girl has a fake ID that says she is 17, what then?


That's a bit of an odd situation under our laws because it does depend on the ID presented and the ability to prove ID had been requested. 

A driver's licence is a lot more difficult to fake but a birth certificate doesn't even require fake documents, just borrowing it from someone older. 

My sons were just as eager as any other male and while I did encourage them to consider checking ID, I also strongly encouraged them to date a gal long enough to meet a few friends and learn a bit about a gal before they took things to a new level. Again, it doesn't ensure they won't get in trouble but certainly eliminated the odds significantly. 

I notice a lot of people my age and maybe older seem to have a different outlook on this but we also tended to date within our communities so we had a greater chance of actually knowing something about the people we dated by way of friends in common or maybe simply knowing members of the family.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Riverdale said:


> So, if a 13 yo girl has a fake ID that says she is 17, what then?


It might be helpful if a smart young man just got to know her by conversing with her and observing her behaviour, knowledge, interests and maturity that would be more typical of a 17 year old rather than a 13 year old. Even a blind man who can't see what she looks like should be able to tell the differences in emotional maturity, knowledge and education between a very young teenage girl and an older teenage girl after taking some time to get to know her.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> Let's take this thread over to single tree and see if the singles there think a request for multiple ID a drug screen and a pre dating agreement might impede romance.


OK, but do the people on singletree date a lot of underage girls? 

If you only date adults you can't get in trouble for having sex with a 14 year old girl, right? 

I don't think a drug screening or pre-dating agreement was mentioned, but again if you date adults you don't have to worry about it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> OK, but do the people on singletree date a lot of underage girls?
> 
> If you only date adults you can't get in trouble for having sex with a 14 year old girl, right?
> 
> I don't think a drug screening or pre-dating agreement was mentioned, but again if you date adults you don't have to worry about it.


The rub seems to be that of determining who is an adult. Appearances can be deceiving!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The rub seems to be that of determining who is an adult. Appearances can be deceiving!


If someone really wants to know there are many ways of finding out how old someone is. It's a matter of caring how old they are tho, and not just going by appearance.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> Let's take this thread over to single tree and see if the singles there think a request for multiple ID a drug screen and a pre dating agreement might impede romance.


Over in ST, the common deal breakers seem to be excessive alcohol consumption, drug abuse and smoking so I'm inclined to guess that not too many worry about a drug screen but there have been discussions about folks our age being scammed by con artists and much discussion about prenups.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> If someone really wants to know there are many ways of finding out how old someone is. It's a matter of caring how old they are tho, and not just going by appearance.


On our state we have an I'd for any age you get it at the dmv it is state I'd.
My son got it at five because he was working and needed it for his crew license.
It's adorable..

In our state it is a crime to possess fake I'd.

In our state minor are not allowed in bars or smoke shops. The minor is charge along with anyone who assist a minor to enter. If the shop keeper is lacks they too are charged.

I have thought I was speaking with a fellow parent only to find out she was a classmate of my son.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> Let's take this thread over to single tree and see if the singles there think a request for multiple ID a drug screen and a pre dating agreement might impede romance.


What difference would it make to this conversation? Keep in mind that the folks in ST are mature adults with adult romance concerns and many of them have teenage and adult children and even grand-children of their own. So if you ask them your question don't forget to mention the fact that the discussion here is about ID'ing young post-pubescent teenage girls who may be under the age of consent, it's not about mature adults of consensual age like themselves.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> If someone really wants to know there are many ways of finding out how old someone is. It's a matter of caring how old they are tho, and not just going by appearance.



You Seem to be forgetting the objective of the men and women. 
Obtaining access to each other's bodies via dating. 
Insulting potential partners by saying you doubt their word and that you suspect them of being lying druggies and scam artists seems to have the potential to lower your success rates.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> You Seem to be forgetting the objective of the *men and women*.
> Obtaining access to each other's bodies via dating.
> Insulting potential partners by saying you doubt their word and that you suspect them of being lying druggies and scam artists seems to have the potential to lower your success rates.


But we aren't talking about men and women. We're talking about youngsters whose consensual age is in question. Nobody should be successful at obtaining access to the bodies of youngsters.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Which is why id ing is needed... people lie to get into bars.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

kasilofhome said:


> On our state we have an I'd for any age you get it at the dmv it is state I'd.
> 
> My son got it at *five *because he was working and needed it for his crew license.
> It's adorable..
> ...


Five? What kind of licensed crew work would a five year old be doing? Isn't that against child labor laws?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Fennick said:


> Five? What kind of licensed crew work would a five year old be doing? Isn't that against child labor laws?


Commercial Fisherman no it still is not illegal. It's a right of being born in a commercial fishing family.. under five they do not need a license. His job was to guide old worn eyes to the bobbing corks to set the stakes in the spring. ..he go excused legally from school. And he picked the nets. 

Look at commercial fishing as a family farm on water.... no different even in the government's eyes.

You have kids at nine who own fishing permits worth 30,000. That is how kids can pay not borrow for college.

As the older members in a family can't work ...one ages fast fishing ...permits are past to kids.... under 12 there has to be proof the kid has worked two years as a fisherman to transfer a permit to a child. Prior years of commercial fishing license are proof.

This is normal here to have infants to geriatrics of a family all together working in some fashion. Cooking,cleaning, sorting, mending nets, cleaning shifts and boats. There's a job for anyone but touch a fish or a net or go out on the boat to even watch commercial fishermen and you have better have a valid commercial fishing license.......


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Thanks for the explanation, that's really interesting and sounds like a good, reasonable way for children to learn working responsibility and cooperation in a family business.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Fennick said:


> But we aren't talking about men and women. We're talking about youngsters whose consensual age is in question. Nobody should be successful at obtaining access to the bodies of youngsters.



Um yes we are ! See that's the problem. Men and women of all ages are trying to find love in various forms. 
Some "youngsters" are willing to lie in pursuit of it. 
Don't think for a moment that there is something magical about the number 18 that turns youngsters into men and women at that precise moment. 
I guess what we are really talking about is who should be responce able for a underage woman's lies.


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## Kmac15 (May 19, 2007)

I just had a thought.... what is the girls parents responsibility in all this? Should they not be making sure that the child is home at night? Going out with friends they know? going to places with adult supervision? ...... If they claim they can't supervisor her then how can they expect another teenage to take over that duty


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I think the parents have asked for the charges to be dropped.


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## kuriakos (Oct 7, 2005)

Yes, the girl's mother at least took responsibility for her part after the fact. Had she not allowed the girl out of the house without knowing where she was going, it might have prevented the situation, though. The mother asked where the girl was going and the girl didn't answer, yet the mother still let her leave. That would never happen in my house. If my daughter doesn't answer a direct question, she's grounded.


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