# Tell Office Depot To Leave Our Kids Alone



## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

For the last two weeks we have been busy eating our Chic Fil A's, and watching the media,along with city mayors,trying to bring down Chic fil a's CEO Dan Cathy, for his belief against gay marriage.Look what was happening and the media kept it quite as a mouse.At least I haven't heard or read about it.Maybe some of you did,if so,I apologize for wasting your time. 

Office Depot is guaranteeing $1 million to help indoctrinate your children that they are born "gay."

Even got *LADY GAGA* in on the scheme.Now there's somebody every parent wants their child to pattern their life after. BETTER WAKE UP FOLKS!












Anglican Mainstream Â» Blog Archive Â» Tell Office Depot: Leave our kids alone!

*ITS NOT ENOUGH TO ONLY WATCH THE FRONT DOOR FOR SATAN TO COME IN.If YOU HAVE TWO EYES, ONE OF THEM BETTER BE LOOKING AT THE BACK DOOR AS WELL!*


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

By all means, let's prevent our children, from discovering their own sexuality.

Then, when they blow their brains out, we can pretend that we can't understand, what went wrong.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

If you don't believe that people are born with their sexual preference already set, then you're admitting that you think I could take YOU and turn YOU gay.

Makes one wonder :shrug:

At no point in my own life did the clouds part and an angel come down from on high and say "Well, Kat, you're reaching puberty....so do you want to be attracted to men or women?". My DS right now (at 5 months) openly flirts with women. A good friend of mine who is gay's mother said when he was this age he was flirting with men already. I doubt that any parent has had enough influence on their child by 5 months of age to push them towards heterosexuality or homosexuality. 

You are welcome to your religious beliefs. You are welcome to believe that being gay is a sin or whatever. But the biology behind sexual orientation answers to no faith - it simply is what it is.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> For the last two weeks we have been busy eating our Chic Fil A's, and watching the media,along with city mayors,trying to bring down Chic fil a's CEO Dan Cathy, for his belief against gay marriage.Look what was happening and the media kept it quite as a mouse.At least I haven't heard or read about it.Maybe some of you did,if so,I apologize for wasting your time.
> 
> Office Depot is guaranteeing $1 million to help indoctrinate your children that they are born "gay."
> 
> ...


I am so glad my kids are out of 'school' and young adults!!


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Then why does the gay community have to work so hard to convince our kids that they are gay. If they are born that way, they are born that way, right? The "stigma" of being gay is gone for the most part. So why work so hard at it anymore? If you've ever been to a gay community center in a college you would see that they HAVE to recruit and how they do it. 

One of the worst pieces of science perpretrated upon man is that people are born gay. I believe that people can have the inclination - much like people can be predisposed to be alcoholics. But that doesn't mean they have to be an alcholic if they choose not to be. My son is predisposted to be great musician but he isn't predisposed to want to work hard at it. Therefore- his first predisposition is not worth a lot to him unless he over comes the second. 

People become what they want to be, not what they are born to be. Therefore turning people like Lady Gaga loose on our children is very dangerous to those of us that believe that homosexuality is a sin as well as a dangerous lifestyle to embrace.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> People become what they want to be, not what they are born to be.


So you could be attracted to another woman? The same way as you are to men? You simply choose to be with men and not women, right?


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> One of the worst pieces of science perpretrated upon man is that people are born gay. I believe that people can have the inclination - much like people can be predisposed to be alcoholics.


Being an alcoholic generally is a bad thing, though. Being gay is neutral, IMO -- as is being heterosexual. It's just an orientation. What you do with it -- how you treat your partners, etc. -- is what determines whether it's used for good or bad. 

I suppose someone could deny their orientation and try to pass as someone they're not. Or they could choose to be celibate, and not act on their natural urges. My question would be ... why? Most of us desire a loving relationship with a partner to whom we're sincerely attracted. Assuming all parties involved are consenting adults, what's the harm in that? Why shouldn't gay people have the same thing heterosexuals do?

Actually, I think honesty is preferable to the deception that goes with trying to conceal one's true orientation. I have met women who unknowingly married gay men who were desperately trying to deny their sexuality. The women usually suffered from the lack of intimacy and often a broken marriage resulted when their partner was compelled to stop living a lie. Lots of heartbreak all around ... especially when there were kids involved. How much better would if have been if everyone could have been honest from the start? 

I suspect we'll see less of the above as time goes on and the societal pressure to be hetero (or at pretend to!) diminishes.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

The main problem I see is that parents have given up their responsibilities to their children. God expects the parents to train up the child, not the government, not some unknown teacher, not the tv. Parents have given their children over to the world to train and every Christian should know who the ruler of this world is. 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Christian parents better wake up or they will lose their children. No matter what a business or a pop star or anyone else does, it's the parents who are responsible for their children.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

I can't help but wonder why so many supposedely straight people are spending so much time around gay people if they really don't like them or their lifestyle.
Why are so many "straight" people showing up at gay community centers, gay pride parades, etc?
I am just the opposite. If there is a group of people I don't like I don't spend time around them.
Sounds like the "straight" people ar not quite as straight as they like to think.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

And why do we care so much what a fast food company or office supply company does? Do you really let your fast food dictate your morals? Hilarious!


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Callieslamb said:


> Then why does the gay community have to work so hard to convince our kids that they are gay. If they are born that way, they are born that way, right? The "stigma" of being gay is gone for the most part. So why work so hard at it anymore? If you've ever been to a gay community center in a college you would see that they HAVE to recruit and how they do it.


EVERY college organization advertizes and recruits. Using your logic, all the Christian organizations on college campus are working real hard to recruit people to be Christian, so it must not be natural 

Look at it this way: just because you're Christian doesn't mean you're going to join the Christian Campus Organization, right? Well the Gay Campus Organization wants participation and dues just as much as the frats and the Christians and the French Club do. They. All. Recruit. They aren't trying to "turn" you gay, just get you to participate in their club. Big difference.

The stigma for being gay is NOT gone. Look at the news reports of gays being picked on more than their straight peers, and getting beaten just because of who they are attracted to... look at all that then tell me that there is no stigma for gays in our society anymore. Oh wait, you can't...because there IS still a giant target painted on the backs of gays in our society today. Maybe not as big of a target as in the past, but its still there.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

You should see some of the literature and pamphlets that they hand out to kids in school. Pure filth.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

Is this something that is done as a routine class activity? What grades are they talking about? 

If so I would rather in public schools they spend time teaching the much needed academics, if young people have questions about their sexuality they can ask the counselor, IMHO that would be more appropriate. I really don't care one way or another is someone is homosexual I just would prefer that schools try to concentrate on teaching..


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

If "gay" is a born occurance, why does it have to be pushed and sold so much to children and others? Hetro is not sold, pamlets are not made telling them they are hetro, etc.

Seems to me someone is protesting and selling too much, too hard to make a logical argument.


Seems to me, that in the past when "gays" were more kept in the background/closet the ones that were determined (maybe born) were that way in spite of society, not because they were sold on being gay.

I find that this is totally illogical and some people are just trying to increase their demographic numbers to push their agendas - even on those that are just children or bewildered.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

plowjockey said:


> By all means, let's prevent our children, from discovering their own sexuality.
> 
> Then, when they blow their brains out, we can pretend that we can't understand, what went wrong.


Exactly!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Do any of the "straight" people think they may be changed into a gay if they are around gay people?
Do they think if they read a pamplet it will turn them gay? Do they think if they belong to a club that has a gay member they will turn gay?

Got news for you. There is a gay person in your family. They may not trust you enough to let you know or it might even be you.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

The most profound statement I have heard on the subject as to whether being Gay was a choice came from a 50+ year old gay man who worked with my wife about 10 years ago (meaning he grew up in the 50's/60's) he said "Why would I choose to be something that was, and for the most part still is, hated and reviled by most people and that made you an outcast?"


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## sirquack (Feb 18, 2009)

I have many gay friends and I can say with 100% certainty that they were born that way. Some were openly gay from the start, some hid their preference, even going so far as getting married to hide their preference. They were unhappy and left the marriage with the spouse wondering what they did wrong. 
I think some of the corporate sponsors are only offering money to give people the understanding that there are people out there different than us. This same argument was made years ago about blacks and other minorities. As a society we are finally starting to understand that different is not a bad thing. But there will be some hold outs, based on responses here, that just don't understand.


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## oth47 (Jan 11, 2008)

You may be born blind or with black hair or brown skin,but born gay? I doubt it.Unless someone forces you into it,you choose to have that first same sex experience.Then you choose to have the second one,and the next,and the next,on and on.I don't know why some choose to be gay or bi,but I do believe it's a conscious choice of 2 orientations.


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## sirquack (Feb 18, 2009)

oth47 said:


> You may be born blind or with black hair or brown skin,but born gay? I doubt it.Unless someone forces you into it,you choose to have that first same sex experience.Then you choose to have the second one,and the next,and the next,on and on.I don't know why some choose to be gay or bi,but I do believe it's a conscious choice of 2 orientations.


As said by someone previously, why would someone deliberately choose to be something that is hated and reviled? What is your experience with gay people? As I have said, I know many. I have talked to them about their lives as a friend and I can say most, because I have not talked to all in this level of depth, but those I have spoken to have all told me that knew they were gay LONG before their first sexual encounter. So it is not a sexual encounter that turned them gay. 

Lets use people in prison as an example, is a prisoner gay because he is forced into gay sex? They might repeat the act many time, but when they get out, do they continue to pursue gay sex? I would say, most would go to their original preference. But maybe I am simplifying this too much. And maybe since I know people who are gay, I can speak from more experience than someone who has nothing but their ideology to rely on.


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2012)

sirquack said:


> As said by someone previously, why would someone deliberately choose to be something that is hated and reviled? What is your experience with gay people? As I have said, I know many. I have talked to them about their lives as a friend and I can say most, because I have not talked to all in this level of depth, but those I have spoken to have all told me that knew they were gay LONG before their first sexual encounter. So it is not a sexual encounter that turned them gay.
> 
> Lets use people in prison as an example, is a prisoner gay because he is forced into gay sex? They might repeat the act many time, but when they get out, do they continue to pursue gay sex? I would say, most would go to their original preference. But maybe I am simplifying this too much. And maybe since I know people who are gay, I can speak from more experience than someone who has nothing but their ideology to rely on.


question is why are gay people forcing other prisoners to have sex?


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

AngieM2 said:


> If "gay" is a born occurance, why does it have to be pushed and sold so much to children and others? Hetro is not sold, pamlets are not made telling them they are hetro, etc.
> 
> Seems to me someone is protesting and selling too much, too hard to make a logical argument.
> 
> ...


In order to increase their numbers they must recruit,they can't multiply.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> In order to increase their numbers they must recruit,they can't multiply.


I never thought of it quite like that.
succinct but true.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> In order to increase their numbers they must recruit,they can't multiply.


They do multiply.
Just think of the number of gay men and women who have been forced by society to marry a person of the other sex. Many have children. Those children inherit the possibility of being gay and carrying it on.

Sort of like breeding a black cow with a white cow. The calf may be either white or black but will still carry the possibility of having either color off sprrings. These off springs will have the same possibility of producing either white or black calves.


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## oth47 (Jan 11, 2008)

Obviously sirquack and I have talked to different gays.I never had one tell me he was born that way.And I was a magnet for men as a teenager and I never got one to explain to me why or how he could look at me as a sex partner rather than a female.Yeah,I've known a bunch of gay men,more than my share.But I never met one who considered himself a victim.The ones I knew made their own choices and suffered their own consequences.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Hitler said it best.
And he proved that it worked.

"Tell a lie loud enough, and long enough, and everyone will believe it".


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

oth47 said:


> Obviously sirquack and I have talked to different gays.I never had one tell me he was born that way.And I was a magnet for men as a teenager and I never got one to explain to me why or how he could look at me as a sex partner rather than a female.Yeah,I've known a bunch of gay men,more than my share.But I never met one who considered himself a victim.The ones I knew made their own choices and suffered their own consequences.


It might make a difference in if you are speaking to a true friend or a possible sex partner.


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## preparing (Aug 4, 2011)

> I can't help but wonder why so many supposedely straight people are spending so much time around gay people if *they really don't like them *or their lifestyle.


Who says gays aren't liked, loved, worked with, friends with.......You're showing your ignorance! That statement indicates you are guilty of stereotyping those of us who hold to a traditional values about relationships .


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## preparing (Aug 4, 2011)

Got to go finish mowing the grass!!! I'll check back with you later Pancho


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

veggiecanner said:


> question is why are gay people forcing other prisoners to have sex?


Haven't you heard the term "gay for the stay?" Sex in prison is a control thing, and I bet you 99% of the men forcing others to have sex are NOT gay.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> In order to increase their numbers they must recruit,they can't multiply.


They aren't recruiting people to be gay, they're making it more acceptable to come out. 

You can't make a person be gay, he/she either is or isn't. How many gay people were raised by heterosexual parents? If it is taught, then how do you explain gay people who weren't raised by/near any gay people? That argument is just silly.


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2012)

MDKatie said:


> Haven't you heard the term "gay for the stay?" Sex in prison is a control thing, and I bet you 99% of the men forcing others to have sex are NOT gay.


Still wrong.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

veggiecanner said:


> Still wrong.


Yes, rape is wrong no matter if the one doing it is gay/straight/male/female.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Callieslamb said:


> Then why does the gay community have to work so hard to convince our kids that they are gay.


Why does the religious community, work so hard to convince their children, that they are straight?

The Singer and Office Depot are not recruiting, just telling kids, to not be ashamed of who they really are.

The opposite, of course is being pushed by religion, where you are to suppress your true sexuality, therefore saving your parents from shame (which is most important), live your life as someone else, in the closet, just like they have done for 1800 years.

I can't even fathom choosing God, over my children's happiness.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

veggiecanner said:


> Still wrong.


Throwing male rape into a gay discussion, is just a diversionary tactic, IMO.

If men and women, were in prison together, there would likely be a large amount of heterosexual rape, occurring also.

Rape is about control, not just sex.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

> Why does the religious community, work so hard to convince their children, that they are straight?


Of all the kids I have worked with I never had to or tried to convince them they were straight.

Being a person of Faith, I can state God does not condemn us for things he puts in us. 

He condemns things we have a choice in.

Being "gay" (I really hate that such a lovely word has been taken over for such an insidious practice) is no different to me than being a drunk, a drug addict, smoker or adulterer. 

You make the choice to take that first and second drink, hit, smoke or affair. None of it just happens. YOU DECIDE to let it. If you decide to do it, you need to be quiet and deal with where it leads you.


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2012)

You all want to make gays sound so innocent. But I know better. I used to hang around a bar and not to far down the street there was a gay bar. The more butch lesbiens used to come into the straight bar and try to pick up the straight girls. A few of them got their butts handed to them and not by the straight girls boy freinds. Was kinda funny watching those fake guys get the heck whooped out of them, by the straight girls.


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

So if you can't be 'born gay'....can you be 'born straight'?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

veggiecanner said:


> You all want to make gays sound so innocent. But I know better. I used to hang around a bar and not to far down the street there was a gay bar. The more butch lesbiens used to come into the straight bar and try to pick up the straight girls. A few of them got their butts handed to them and not by the straight girls boy freinds. Was kinda funny watching those fake guys get the heck whooped out of them, by the straight girls.


If you would have made the walk down the street to the gay bar you would see some of the same customers from the bar you went to. Maybe a few of those whooping the heck out of the gays might have been those who had visited and were worried their secret might get out.

It is a common thing. Some people will go to other cities to visit a gay bar just to keep their secret.


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2012)

I did walk down there with some of my gay freinds and it wasn't happening.
The more feminine lesbiens drew straws to go home with the butch lesbiens. Not the life style that you all are making it out to be.
You all want to make it sound like your truley devoted and paired up. When it was nothing to badger other people into the life.

When i was in job corps the gays raped other girls all the time.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

veggiecanner said:


> I did walk down there with some of my gay freinds and it wasn't happening.
> The more feminine lesbiens drew straws to go home with the butch lesbiens. Not the life style that you all are making it out to be.
> You all want to make it sound like your truley devoted and paired up. When it was nothing to badger other people into the life.
> 
> When i was in job corps the gays raped other girls all the time.


Did you ever see a straight person pick up another person in a bar?


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2012)

Yes but when you go to a straight bar you want to be picked up by another straight person, not have gays come in and try to pick you up..

If you want to have a gay pick you up you go to the gay bar.
So what your point?
And just in case your curious, i am with the same man i was with then, 35 years later. was never interested in the gay experience or the loose life they were leading.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

veggiecanner said:


> Yes but when you go to a straight bar you want to be picked up by another straight person, not have gays come in and try to pick you up..
> 
> If you want to have a gay pick you up you go to the gay bar.
> So what your point?
> And just in case your curious, i am with the same man i was with then, 35 years later. was never interested in the gay experience or the loose life they were leading.


Living a loose life is not just limited to gays. How is a person looking for another to pick up know if that person is gay or straight? How do they know what that person is turned on by?

Not every gay person carries a sign.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

MDKatie said:


> They aren't recruiting people to be gay, they're making it more acceptable to come out.
> 
> You can't make a person be gay, he/she either is or isn't. How many gay people were raised by heterosexual parents? If it is taught, then how do you explain gay people who weren't raised by/near any gay people? That argument is just silly.


You're right, you can't make a person be gay, but he/she can choose to that lifestyle. Before I became a Christian I actually played around a bit with lesbianism. I had been hurt by men and was rebelling against the Christian family I grew up in. It's not hard to encourage people to live the gay lifestyle any more than it is to encourage people to join gangs. Even though both may be considered outside the norm, a lot of people like being different than the norm. So IMO homosexuality is a choice, just like other choices we all make every day.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

veggiecanner said:


> I did walk down there with some of my gay freinds and it wasn't happening.
> The more feminine lesbiens drew straws to go home with the butch lesbiens. Not the life style that you all are making it out to be.
> You all want to make it sound like your truley devoted and paired up. When it was nothing to badger other people into the life.
> 
> When i was in job corps the gays raped other girls all the time.


On this I have to question you. There are many who are devoted to their partner.


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2012)

pancho said:


> Living a loose life is not just limited to gays. How is a person looking for another to pick up know if that person is gay or straight? How do they know what that person is turned on by?
> 
> Not every gay person carries a sign.


Yes, but you all act like your above all that and your not. Your very capable of coming on and indoctrinating people. Trying to convince people that it's not that way is a joke.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

veggiecanner said:


> Yes, but you all act like your above all that and your not. Your very capable of coming on and indoctrinating people. Trying to convince people that it's not that way is a joke.


Sorry, I am not gay. I just love women. Been married 4 times so far.

Gays and straights have a lot more in common than they have differences.
Just one difference. Gay people choose to be open about who they find attractive. Many straights try to keep it a secret.

I have a good friend who owns a gay bar. I dated her twin sister for a while. It would come as a surprise to many people if they could see all the people who actually go to a gay bar. It would sure surprise them to see who picked up who when there wasn't any witnesses around.


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## sirquack (Feb 18, 2009)

MJsLady said:


> Of all the kids I have worked with I never had to or tried to convince them they were straight.
> 
> Being a person of Faith, I can state God does not condemn us for things he puts in us.
> 
> ...


WOW, this one takes the cake. Comparing being gay to being an addict is just funny to me. It implies that gays tried it and found it so tantilizing that they could not get away from the lifestyle. 

That is really taking it to the extreme. 

And I lived in Southern California and worked in an area affectionately called "The Fruit Loop" and I can honestly say, some gay men tried to make an effort to come on to me. I simply told them, not interested, just like a regular person would do in a non gay environment and that was the end of that. So I have seen men who have been attracted to me, but it did not bother me anymore than a woman at a bar who comes up and offers me a drink or a dance. 
And some of you might think this is recruiting, but come on... who knows if someone is gay or not until you ask them out? I am happily married and we regularly go to clubs with our gays friends to a "GAY" bar. We enjoy spending time with our friends and sometimes people will hit on my wife or I and when we tell them we are straight they don't take it any further. And we don't get beat up or try to beat them up just for asking. So maybe, some people are not quite secure in their own sexuality to just say, "no thanks" and just move on.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

bluemoonluck said:


> If you don't believe that people are born with their sexual preference already set, then you're admitting that you think I could take YOU and turn YOU gay.
> 
> Makes one wonder :shrug:
> 
> ...


bet the same Argument can be applied to mass murders and Pedophiles.
As far as I know both Ilks come in Straight,Gay,and Bi. 
Some are both mass murderer and pedophile.
Both have been around as long as civilization.
I do not think either behavior is learned any more then sexuality.
Seems we like to make exceptions for some who are born different but not others? 
Isn't it so much easier to accept people once you know they had no choice in the matter?
No blame to be placed it just is what it is...

I also have to say they as one group or another a a minority, and the ones that are a combination are a even smaller minority.
I would also have to venture the a mass murdering gay pedophile is probably a super minority...


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> You're right, you can't make a person be gay, but he/she can choose to that lifestyle.


I disagree wholeheartedly. I could not choose to be a lesbian. The thought of being with a woman does nothing for me, and actually grosses me out a bit. I can no more choose to be gay than gay people (not the ones who experiment to rebel against whatever, but those who are actually gay) can choose to be straight.


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2012)

||Downhome|| said:


> bet the same Argument can be applied to mass murders and Pedophiles.
> As far as I know both Ilks come in Straight,Gay,and Bi.
> Some are both mass murderer and pedophile.
> Both have been around as long as civilization.
> ...


Your right gay people are born differently, but people should be allowed to seek out people of the same intrests, not have it pushed on them. Gays and straights should learn about sex the same way, in the back seat of a car with some one their own age that they care about. Not from teachers and other adults who some times use it as a way to take advantage..


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

I just breezed through this thread and a super funny thought occurred to me.

This argument has been going on over 50 years of my lifetime!

One of my friends in high School was (and probably still is) a lesbian. We would sit together with other friends and talk about this very subject.


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## SilverVista (Jan 12, 2005)

oth47 said:


> Unless someone forces you into it,you choose to have that first same sex experience.Then you choose to have the second one,and the next,and the next,on and on.I don't know why some choose to be gay or bi,but I do believe it's a conscious choice of 2 orientations.


No. You are born with the orientation. Whether you ACT on it is a conscious choice.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

I remember the day when I was 12 years old that I realized I was straight. I went to school one day, and the boys looked a heckuva lot better than they did the day before, zits and all.

Many gay people say they knew they were attracted to the same sex (although they certainly didn't understand the whole sexual feelings thing) before they were in kindergarten, and guess what? Very frequently, their parents did too.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

MDKatie said:


> I disagree wholeheartedly. I could not choose to be a lesbian. The thought of being with a woman does nothing for me, and actually grosses me out a bit. I can no more choose to be gay than gay people (not the ones who experiment to rebel against whatever, but those who are actually gay) can choose to be straight.


That's your opinion, which you are entitled to. I happen to disagree for many reasons.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Ardie/WI said:


> I just breezed through this thread and a super funny thought occurred to me.
> 
> This argument has been going on over 50 years of my lifetime!
> 
> One of my friends in high School was (and probably still is) a lesbian. We would sit together with other friends and talk about this very subject.


I know what you mean. I had a friend who's Mom left her husband for a woman. My friend called her mom's partner, dad.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Ardie/WI said:


> I just breezed through this thread and a super funny thought occurred to me.
> 
> This argument has been going on over 50 years of my lifetime!
> 
> One of my friends in high School was (and probably still is) a lesbian. We would sit together with other friends and talk about this very subject.


My mother had a friend (who died several years ago) who I'm 99.9% certain was a lesbian. She lived with her "best friend" for over 50 years, and in the 1970s, they bought a house together. Hello! But it didn't matter to the people who knew them.

I also had a friend in high school whose dad was in the Navy in WWII, and he said there were gay men in his platoon, everybody knew who they were, and nobody cared as long as they did their jobs. BTW, he died some years before DADT was passed. Anyway, someone else said, "Yeah, everyone thought they were gay because they were skinny and had high pitched voices" and I replied, "No, everyone KNEW they were gay because they were going out with each other."


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

Just because someone engaged in homosexual behavior due to being in jail, or being abused, or due to rebellion or any other reason, does not invalidate the experiences of gay people who realized they were different at a young age.

Were children of the 50's, 60's, 70's ever encouraged to be gay? I don't think so. Yet gay people grew up in those eras, hidden and closeted for the most part. Look through these pictures of KIDS from those eras - some you can tell were gay just from looking! 

Born This Way Blog

And some of you refuse to believe that people were born that way? Did your hormones not fly towards one sex or another in your youth? Pfffft. It's enough for me that I had crushes on the opposite sex when I was a kid. A gay kid would have had crushes on the same sex. It's also enough for me that I actually LISTEN to the experiences of others, not just the experiences of those who fit my religious need. 

This is what ignorance looks like. When your bias is so strong you can't accept reality. Yep, I believe people here when they said they felt like the opposite sex as a child, I believe when they have memories of being hot for the same sex in their teens. I also believe the Bible says whatever it says. And that the Bible does not invalidate the experience of others.

A lot could be learned from listening to others.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

veggiecanner said:


> Your right gay people are born differently, but people should be allowed to seek out people of the same intrests, not have it pushed on them. Gays and straights should learn about sex the same way, in the back seat of a car with some one their own age that they care about. Not from teachers and other adults who some times use it as a way to take advantage..


You seem to of missed my Intention...


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## bignugly (Jul 13, 2011)

pancho said:


> I can't help but wonder why so many supposedely straight people are spending so much time around gay people if they really don't like them or their lifestyle.
> Why are so many "straight" people showing up at gay community centers, gay pride parades, etc?
> I am just the opposite. If there is a group of people I don't like I don't spend time around them.
> Sounds like the "straight" people ar not quite as straight as they like to think.


Based on your logic, people go to sporting events because they want to be athletes, or go to zoos because they want to be animals. Have you ever given any thought that maybe, just maybe people are just trying to find out what the big deal is all about. Some people like to find out first hand about a subject and not rely on the media or someone else's word to decide for themselves. I don't judge anything by what others have to say.


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## oth47 (Jan 11, 2008)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> So if you can't be 'born gay'....can you be 'born straight'?


Sure you're born straight..got any proof otherwise? And before you ask,I don't either.All we have are opinions,which are pretty much worthless.Be as gay as you want to be,just don't make excuses for it.."I can't help it".."God made me gay".."I was born this way"..baloney! You had a choice to accept that man's advances or turn'em down.Life is full of choices and consequences.


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

oth47 said:


> Be as gay as you want to be,just don't make excuses for it.."I can't help it".."God made me gay".."I was born this way"..baloney! You had a choice to accept that man's advances or turn'em down.Life is full of choices and consequences.


I'll bet anything there are guys here who chose a heterosexual lifestyle as they were expected to - guys who are attracted to other guys. This makes them gay, even if they're the only ones who know about it. 

Some people who scream the loudest against homosexuality are just hiding their own secrets. Look up reaction formation.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

bignugly said:


> Based on your logic, people go to sporting events because they want to be athletes, or go to zoos because they want to be animals. Have you ever given any thought that maybe, just maybe people are just trying to find out what the big deal is all about. Some people like to find out first hand about a subject and not rely on the media or someone else's word to decide for themselves. I don't judge anything by what others have to say.


I guess you failed to understand what I was trying to explain. My fault.
What I was trying to explain is there are many people who will not have anything to do with a gay person but will go to another city where no one knows them to have a gay experience with another person of the same sex.
They will return to their home and be the same homophobic person they always were but continue to visit cities they are not know in to have more gay experiences.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

oth47 said:


> Sure you're born straight..got any proof otherwise? And before you ask,I don't either.All we have are opinions,which are pretty much worthless.Be as gay as you want to be,just don't make excuses for it.."I can't help it".."God made me gay".."I was born this way"..baloney! You had a choice to accept that man's advances or turn'em down.Life is full of choices and consequences.


I suppose I made a choice when I avoided the whims of the (for lack of being censored) homosexual twice my age trying to feed me wine... I held out for my High school sweet heart and naturally procreated two children in wedlock!

was it being born too it? I don't know seems teenagers are sex crazed for some time now, like the sailors say any port in a storm, ya I think not!

My original post was to point out it is a choice, with known consequence.
You can accept it!
You can not make me though!
I'm not going on any witch hunts though!
I know it goes on.
Just don't try and make me accept it.
Don't push it on me and mine!
I'm more then good enough with live and let live,but you need to practice that just the same!
Do you really think I would accept pedophiles or mass murders cause they are born that way?
it was more or less rhetorical!
NO ONE BUYS IT WHEN THEY PLAY THE BORN THIS WAY CARD?????
LOTS OF FOLKS HIDE STUFF! WE KNOW IT GOES ON!
ALL KINDS OF STUFF...
DON'T PRESS IT ON ME THOUGH!
You might not like the outcome.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Being "gay" (I really hate that such a lovely word has been taken over for such an insidious practice) is no different to me than being a drunk, a drug addict, smoker or adulterer.


Nonsense! All those practices are bad things that hurt people. Being gay is no more inherently harmful than being heterosexual.

The emotions are identical. Even many of the sex acts are identical. Only the gender of the participants is different (or, rather, the same). 

I've always known I was bi. I can't remember a time I didn't find women just as attractive and desirable as men. I like being bi, and wouldn't change it if I could.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I suppose I made a choice when I avoided the whims of the (for lack of being censored) homosexual twice my age trying to feed me wine...


When I was very young, I had adult men plying me with liquor and trying to get into my britches ...

I suppose I should hate all heterosexual men, eh?


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

MDKatie said:


> They aren't recruiting people to be gay, they're making it more acceptable to come out.
> 
> You can't make a person be gay, he/she either is or isn't. How many gay people were raised by heterosexual parents? If it is taught, then how do you explain gay people who weren't raised by/near any gay people? That argument is just silly.





KnowOneSpecial said:


> So if you can't be 'born gay'....can you be 'born straight'?


 My belief is we were/are all born the same,as far as sexual preference is concerned,neither straight or gay.The reason I believe this is because I'm a Christian and I know God does not create sin.If God says homosexuality is sin,be rest assured He did not create someone gay and on their way to h*ll. So whats the point of saying straight if there's nothing else opposing it?

However, thanks to mans fall in the Garden by disobeying God,humans are now born into a sinful world,and facing a temptation to sin constantly. Homosexuality according to the Bible,happens to be one of them.There are many more,but this one is the subject of discussion and one of the biggies.Many folks believe sin is sin and no one sin is worse than any others,and I kind of agree,but this one did cause God to send fire and brimstone down and destroy two cities along with their wicked occupants.

Plus thousands of years later in Jude 7,God reminds us again the destruction of S&G was an example for us to remember,He don't approve of homosexuality,or any sin. 
*To Make a Long Story Short.....*
The Bible tells us to "bring up a child in the way he should go" .That means teach them right from wrong according to the Bible and the laws of the land.Vote for Godly men and women to help keep the laws of the land in line with Gods word, and hopefully teachers out of classrooms teaching our children that sin is fine and they were born that way.*IT AIN'T,THEY WON'T,AND BELIEVING THAT LIE WILL ONLY MAKE IT THAT MUCH HARDER FOR THEM TO ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST,THEIR ONLY HOPE OF SALVATION FOR ANY OF US*


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Godly men and women to help keep the laws of the land in line with Gods word,


It's my government, too, you know. And you would no more wish to live under my rules than I would under yours. (Unless, of course, you really _want_ to be a vegetarian!) 

I am content to practice my beliefs in my personal life without feeling the need to impose them upon others who don't share my convictions.

I wish you would do the same.


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## defenestrate (Aug 23, 2005)

It seems a lot of folks conflate homosexual acts with homosexual orientation. I think that the repressive nature of most societies against less accepted (or less common as I consider the two highly similar) behaviors leads to far more problems than it causes. While sexual orientation has only partially observable genetic ties (so far) I take my gay friends seriously if they say they have always felt this way, and I find it hard to believe that anyone would choose to be gay in the face of so much contempt from people in their lives.

There is a big difference between telling people that sexual orientation has no bearing on whether someone is a good person, and "pushing it" on others. There are some folks who act in poor taste, for various reasons, in relation to this issue, but I think most people mean well. Take this thread for example. I don't think Mosaic law, taken piecemeal, is a compelling reason to condemn homosexuals or gay acts, but I think that many who use it don't mean to oppress gays but rather to help them live a good life as they understand it. Some people who are suicidal because of their differing sexuality find a way to live more within the norms and claim to be much happier for it. I am in no position to declare anyone right - anyone who really feels more at peace as a homosexual will have to come to terms with not being able to naturally procreate with their chosen partners - if they are cool with that, I think it's a complete waste of energy to suggest they should live differently.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Considering that all embryos are gender neutral until the gonads move up to form ovaries or drop to form testicles, its quite likely that a gene coding variance during gestation could occur as the embryonic gender is being coded to result in a gonad assignment that doesn't coincide with the applicable gender coded instinctual preferences .


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

This link has some interesting information on homosexuality.

Homosexuality - New World Encyclopedia

Genetic studies

The strongest evidence for genetic inheritance of a particular trait or condition would be to find higher incidence in identical twins. Bailey and Pillard studied the sexual orientation of male siblings in the same family. They found that if one sibling was homosexual, the chance of the other sibling also being homosexual was 52 percent for an identical twin, 22 percent for a fraternal (non-identical) twin, and 10 percent for adopted or non-twin brothers.[33] The study is suggestive, but it is not definitive and has been critiqued for possible sampling errors. A 2000 study of Australian identical twins found a much lower correlation. Well-run studies of identical twins who were separated at birth and raised in different households will be needed to confirm or deny the linkage.

Dean Hamer of the National Cancer Institute used chromosome mapping to attempt to identify some genetic markers responsible for same-sex attraction, the so-called "gay gene."[34] However, Hamer failed to use a control group, as the subjects' heterosexual brothers might have had the same genetic markers. A Canadian research team using a similar experimental design was unable to duplicate the findings of Hamerâs study.[35] This line of research is so preliminary as to prove very little.

At this point, research attempting to demonstrate biological causes of homosexuality are regarded skeptically by many mainstream biologists. The research has been suggestive, but it is plagued by methodological problems including poor sampling, lack of rigorous control groups, and lack of replicability by other researchers. Comments like this are typical:
Recent studies postulate biologic factors as the primary basis for sexual orientation. However, there is no evidence at present to substantiate a biologic theory, just as there is no compelling evidence to support any singular psychological explanation. While all behavior must have an ultimate biologic substrate, the appeal of current biologic explanations for sexual orientation may derive more from dissatisfaction with the present status of psychosocial explanations than from a substantiating body of experimental data. Critical review shows the evidence favoring a biologic theory to be lacking. In an alternative model, temperamental and personality traits interact with the familial and social milieu as the individualâs sexuality emerges.[36] Reports of morphological differences between the brains of humans with different sexual orientation or gender identity have furthered speculation that such behaviors may result from hormonal or genetic influences on the developing brain. However, the causal chain may be reversed; sexual behavior in adulthood may have caused the morphological differencesâ¦. It is possible that differences in sexual behavior cause, rather than are caused by, differences in brain structure.â[37] 
Supposing these genetic studies are borne out by further research; how does one interpret them? Quite a number of diseases, mental disorders and disabilities have a genetic component, including Huntington's disease, Type 1 diabetes, multiple sclerosis, schizophrenia, alcoholism and autism. On the other hand, normal traits such has left-handedness and skin color are also genetic. Hence, finding a genetic factor in homosexuality does not in itself prove that homosexuality is within the range of normal behavior. Furthermore, as genetic research proceeds with the goal of finding methods of gene manipulation to effect cures for illnesses like diabetes and autism, the same could potentially be done for homosexuality.

Neither do such studies prove that genes are the cause of homosexuality. If homosexuality were strictly caused by genesâas is, for example, skin colorâthen 100 percent of identical twins of homosexuals would become homosexual; but Bailey and Pillard find that the percentage is around 50 percent. This means that some other cause must contribute the other 50 percentâDr. Bailey himself stated, âThere must be something in the environment to yield the discordant twins.â[38] The alleged genetic basis would create a propensity to be homosexual, but it does not determine homosexuality. The other factor is likely to be environmental. Schizophrenia presents similarly: genes account for about 50 percent and the other 50 percent is environmental. There is some yet unknown synergy between genes and environment that together produces homosexuality. Some researchers speculate that some environmental effect may trigger the "gay gene" to full expressionâperhaps an event in early childhood. More likely, the gene or genes may confer a certain heightened susceptibility to same-sex attraction that will become fixated based on life-choices made after puberty. In short, both nature and nurture may be involved.

Prenatal hormonal theory

Psychologist Richard Freiherr von Krafft-Ebing's Psychopathia Sexualis (1866) was the first scientific discussion of homosexuality. After interviewing many homosexuals, both as his private patients and as a forensic expert, Krafft-Ebing arrived at the conclusion that homosexuality is an anomalous process of embryonic development that leads to a "sexual inversion" of the brain.

Today the neurobiology of the masculinization of the fetal brain is fairly well understood. Estradiol, and testosterone, which is catalyzed by the enzyme 5&#945;-reductase into dihydrotestosterone, act upon androgen receptors in the brain to masculinize it. If there are few androgen receptors (people with Androgen insensitivity syndrome) or too much androgen (females with Congenital adrenal hyperplasia) there can be physical and psychological effects.[39] It has been suggested that both male and female homosexuality are results of variation in this process.[40] However, studies seeking to demonstrate a link between this developmental process and homosexuality have been inconclusive. While lesbianism is linked with a higher amount of masculinization than is found in heterosexual females; however, the data as regards male homosexuality shows no significant correlation.

Failure to confirm the prenatal hormone theory does not mean that some other developmental mechanism may be at work, perhaps in early childhood. Even if such a mechanism were found, we would be far from knowing whether this mechanism was the result of the genetic factor mentioned above or an independent factor, perhaps environmental.


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

willow_girl said:


> It's my government, too, you know. And you would no more wish to live under my rules than I would under yours. (Unless, of course, you really _want_ to be a vegetarian!)
> 
> I am content to practice my beliefs in my personal life without feeling the need to impose them upon others who don't share my convictions.
> 
> I wish you would do the same.


I understand that you don't want folks with different beliefs than yours interfering in your life and trying to change your beliefs to theirs.I wouldn't like it either,but I'm matured enough to handle it

This threads title says ". Tell Office Depot To Leave Our Kids Alone"
Office Depot is guaranteeing $1 million to help indoctrinate your children that they are born "gay."

Are they not trying to get our children to believe what they say?"The belief that God's word is a lie,and homosexuality is fine".Just like in the Garden of Eden when the serpent convinced Eve that God was wrong and He didn't mean what He said.Plus the fruit God said don't eat, was now fine,and to eat all they wanted and their eyes would open and they would be as God,all knowing.

They found out that God was right all along ,and He would do exactly what He said.The sad thing is our young folks many are not mature enough to not fall for their lies.Many will believe what anyone tells them, especially coming from a teacher whose supposed to be truthful and teach them right from wrong.

We don't want this anti God soul danging lie from the pit of H*ll taught to our kids.Leave them alone,PLEASE!


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## gryndlgoat (May 27, 2005)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> .
> 
> We don't want this anti God soul danging lie from the pit of H*ll taught to our kids.Leave them alone,PLEASE!


It's *YOUR* job to educate your kids regarding what you believe and to make sure that they believe it too, if that is your aim in bringing up your kids. If their faith is strong, they will resist the Lady Gaga's of the world. If it isn't strong enough, then you need to work a little harder as a parent. Suppressing ideas as a way to protect your children from things you don't like them to hear about is NOT going to save them from that pit. 

If they're exposed to things you don't agree with, then you need to explain and make sure they understand that people of your faith don't believe these things. Just like Jews and Muslims and pagans etc. have to do for their children to explain why they don't follow Christian traditions.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

IF you do not like what the public schools are teaching, go private.
It's legal, and your choice.
IF you don't like what the private schools are teaching, home school.
It's legal and your choice.

The morals, convictions, religious, etc. is to be taught by the parents, no matter WHERE they go to school.

If folks are sick of the bombardment of ____________ do something about it.
Not whine, not moan.
Really, do something.

Don't like the garbo that's on tv? Turn it off. Better yet, take it out back and shoot it.........OR USE it to teach, train, educate.

We humans can only control 2 things. 
Our own selves.
And how we react to others.
That's it.


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

gryndlgoat said:


> It's *YOUR* job to educate your kids regarding what you believe and to make sure that they believe it too, if that is your aim in bringing up your kids. If their faith is strong, they will resist the Lady Gaga's of the world. If it isn't strong enough, then you need to work a little harder as a parent. Suppressing ideas as a way to protect your children from things you don't like them to hear about is NOT going to save them from that pit.
> 
> If they're exposed to things you don't agree with, then you need to explain and make sure they understand that people of your faith don't believe these things. Just like Jews and Muslims and pagans etc. have to do for their children to explain why they don't follow Christian traditions.





Laura Zone 5 said:


> IF you do not like what the public schools are teaching, go private.
> It's legal, and your choice.
> IF you don't like what the private schools are teaching, home school.
> It's legal and your choice.
> ...


 I agree with you both.My two are grown and on their own from here on out. Grand kids are being home schooled.I just hate it for other kids that must be exposed to these teachings.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> I agree with you both.My two are grown and on their own from here on out. Grand kids are being home schooled.I just hate it for other kids that must be exposed to these teachings.


Unfortunately it is the worlds way and what the world wants.
There are groups called "Mom's in Touch". It's a prayer group where women get together and pray for the kids, teachers, administrators, bus drivers, etc.

Ephesians 6 tells us with WHOM we are battling, and HOW to battle, and WHAT TO WEAR, in that battle. It's mighty powerful stuff.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I understand that you don't want folks with different beliefs than yours interfering in your life and trying to change your beliefs to theirs.I wouldn't like it either,but I'm matured enough to handle it


And presumably I'm not? ound:



> This threads title says ". Tell Office Depot To Leave Our Kids Alone"
> Office Depot is guaranteeing $1 million to help indoctrinate your children that they are born "gay."
> 
> Are they not trying to get our children to believe what they say?"The belief that God's word is a lie,and homosexuality is fine".Just like in the Garden of Eden when the serpent convinced Eve that God was wrong and He didn't mean what He said.Plus the fruit God said don't eat, was now fine,and to eat all they wanted and their eyes would open and they would be as God,all knowing.
> ...


Doesn't sound like you're "handling it" too well. 

Yes, your version of God condemns homosexuality, but remember that not everyone chooses your version (or any at all). 

I looked up the website of the "Born This Way" organization, and its mission is to "creat[e] a safe community that helps connect young people with the skills and opportunities they need to build a kinder, braver world.

We believe that everyone has the right to feel safe, to be empowered and to make a difference in the world. Together, we will move towards acceptance, bravery and love."

Sounds pretty good to me!


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I just hate it for other kids that must be exposed to these teachings.


Yes, I feel so sorry for the gay kids who hear the message that they're not alone, that their lives have meaning and purpose, and that they can fulfill their dreams and find a loving partner with whom to share their lives.

So much better for them to hear that they're going to burn in Hell because of their natural inclinations. 

Which kid do you think is more likely to commit suicide?


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> This threads title says ". Tell Office Depot To Leave Our Kids Alone"
> Office Depot is guaranteeing $1 million to help indoctrinate your children that they are born "gay."
> 
> Are they not trying to get our children to believe what they say?"The belief that God's word is a lie,and homosexuality is fine".


I'm starting to believe that God is a bigot.

Homosexuality IS fine. Who are any of you to have an "opinion" that orientation is choice when there are so many people out there saying it was not a choice for them? Are THEY lying? Have you looked through the pictures in the link I posted? They are pictures of KIDS who grew up before the internet, before cable even, without access to people like themselves or much other exposure to homosexuality at all considering the time period. Pictures of kids before they knew anything about sexuality. Some of them you can see their orientation in their poses!

The only opinions that matter to establish whether or not gay people are born gay are the opinions of GAY PEOPLE. Not your preacher, not the Bible.

Who are you or anyone else to send a message to gays that they are beneath you? That they are worthy of scorn and condemnation? 
This is what bigotry looks like. It's not limited to blatant hostility or violence. In fact sometimes the biggest justification for it is a love for God. 

You know where I see the most hate and ignorance in my life? Right here on HT. It's embarrassing.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Since there have been gays ever since people have had a choice and considering that gays do no reproduce it must be the straight parents that are forcing kids into the gay lifestyle.


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## Chuck (Oct 27, 2003)

Some things are wrong whether or not we want them to be. You don't get to decide what's true and what's not. Neither do I. We all have to subscribe to some sort of worldview that says what is and what isn't. 

The Christian worldview is based on thousands of years of accumulated (and we believe, revealed) wisdom. I might wish I could believe "Gay" was something you are born with, but unfortunately, I'm not given that option, based on the worldview I have chosen. 

Truth isn't like ice cream - whatever flavor you like is good enough for you. It's more like insulin. It will cure you whether or not you think it will. Your opinion doesn't affect the actuality of Truth. 

So are some men born effeminate? Sure. Does that mean they HAVE to have sex with other men? Not at all. 

Are some women born with more testosterone than normal? Sure. But it doesn't follow that they are therefore forced to act on that and marry a woman. We're all screwed up one way or another - that is what SIN in the world has done...it's messed up everything.

All of us have to deny our baser nature. That's what it means to be civilized. If all men followed their baser instincts, few women would be safe. But marriage was created as a way to reign in those instincts and channel them for the good of society and the glory of God. 

Does that make God a bigot? What tripe. God loved you so much that he sent his son to die a horrible death to fix this world that we screwed up. If that's bigotry, then it doesn't mean what you think it means.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Chuck said:


> Does that make God a bigot? What tripe. God loved you so much that he sent his son to die a horrible death to fix this world that we screwed up. If that's bigotry, then it doesn't mean what you think it means.


That is one thing I have a hard time accepting.
God loved us so much that he sent his son to die a horrible death to fix the world we screwed up. But he didn't love anyone enough to correct the problem he created.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Pancho that is because he did not create the problem.
The only way to stop sin would be to remove our self will.
God will not do that because he wants us to want to follow him. Eyes wide open brains fully engaged. Not from compulsion.

It has been mentioned here as to why gays would choose a path of hurt if they had a choice.

Study history, Christians do the same. The difference is we ADMIT it is a choice.

Some will say well Christians ran the crusades. No Christians did not the catholic religion did. They turned on Christians and murdered them just as fast as they did muslims.

Before any one gets hurt, I believe there are Christians in the catholic church. I just do not believe the catholic church is THE church spoken of in the Bible. Just as I believe there are Christian mormons. I just believe Mr. Smith should have studied his Bible more and paid less heed to that angel. (Gal 1:8 for those inclined to study the matter)


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

MJsLady said:


> Pancho that is because he did not create the problem.
> The only way to stop sin would be to remove our self will.
> God will not do that because he wants us to want to follow him. Eyes wide open brains fully engaged. Not from compulsion.
> 
> ...


I don't think there has ever been a person who knew what was in God's mind, if there is a god, when he created man.
People will try to put their own ideas in place of Gods. That is why religion is so hard to understand. People keep getting themselves and God mixed up. People keep deciding what God would have done if they were God.

Another problem with religion is every church thinks they are the only one that is right.


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## preparing (Aug 4, 2011)

pancho said:


> That is one thing I have a hard time accepting.
> God loved us so much that he sent his son to die a horrible death to fix the world we screwed up. But he didn't love anyone enough to correct the problem he created.


Aside: I just stepped out and pushed the quote button. So that's how you guys make your replies look so polished!

Ok, I'm back.

Could I say without being sacraligious that God is the founder of Libertarianism? It is the free will thingy that God uses to restrain himself. I admit I still struggle with the problem of pain and suffering.

As a Christian, I don't have all the answers. I just have faith that in the end I am in God's loving hands.

If you have kids you can see (in a small way) asking of your children things they can't possibly understand but you have their best interest at heart.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Which is why Christianity is not a religion. It is bigger than that.
You are right Pancho, no human can know the mind of God. All we can know is what he says. 

I mean I wonder all the time, he had the angels, why did he want or need us? Why create something that will turn and bite you? 

Me? I wouldn't but then I look at my boys. Do I want them to love and respect me because they want to or because they have no other choice?

I prefer them to love me and respect me because what they see in me is something they find honorable. A gift, which love is, given by compulsion is a waste and not worth having. Just like an apology. If some one apologizes because they HAVE to (for fear of punishment) then it is not sincere nor worth getting. 

Since God equates himself as a father figure, though admittedly I do not understand his ways or thinking, I feel he is on this same sort of track. 

I will never know if I am right or wrong until I am dead and then it won't matter.

And before you ask, no I do not believe for one minute I could sacrifice my son to save another. Myself maybe, my child no way, no how, never going to happen. I however am not perfect and all loving.


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

pancho said:


> That is one thing I have a hard time accepting.
> God loved us so much that he sent his son to die a horrible death to fix the world we screwed up. But he didn't love anyone enough to correct the problem he created.


He did not create the problem,I think Satan created the problem.The same problem that got him and his angels cast out of Heaven *PRIDE*.

Pride is also why many people will not accept Jesus Christ,they are to proud to admit they are a sinner.The only thing that will conquer pride is humility or becoming humble.Then and only then can we see that we are a lowly sinner in need of a savoir.
When Jesus was hanging on the cross the two thieves hanging beside him both mocked him, and called him names just like the crowd below.All of a sudden one of the thieves allowed humbleness to replace his pride.

Then and only then could he see his wrongs and was guilty of his crime, and deserved to die on the cross.He also saw something else,the man on the cross beside him was indeed the Son of God the Savior of the world .

As the other thief was taunting Jesus to prove He was God's Son, by coming down from the cross and save them all,the now humbled thief said Lord,remember me when thou commest into thou kingdom and Jesus said "This day shalt thou be with me in paradise".

Lets don't let pride stand in the way of our sins,it blocks Jesus out as well.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

pancho said:


> That is one thing I have a hard time accepting.
> God loved us so much that he sent his son to die a horrible death to fix the world we screwed up. But he didn't love anyone enough to correct the problem he created.


God so loved the world (True)
That He gave His only Son (True)
to fix the world (*False*)
that whoever Believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.(True)
God created the problem and won't fix it (*False*)
John 3:16

Pancho, I appreciate how you view this, as there are so many conflicting 'messages' out there. 
If you are truly interested, truly deeply interested, I highly recommend a class that will teach the Book of Genesis.


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## bluesky (Mar 22, 2008)

Chuck said:


> Some things are wrong whether or not we want them to be. You don't get to decide what's true and what's not. Neither do I. We all have to subscribe to some sort of worldview that says what is and what isn't.
> 
> The Christian worldview is based on thousands of years of accumulated (and we believe, revealed) wisdom. I might wish I could believe "Gay" was something you are born with, but unfortunately, I'm not given that option, based on the worldview I have chosen.
> 
> ...


I don't even know where to start. 

So you're suggesting we all simply abdicate the use of logic and reason and find a "worldview" that is full of "revealed" wisdom and stick with it no matter what? I guess that greatly simplifies things. And by the way - I agree that my opinion doesn't affect what is True - but neither does yours. :cowboy:


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

willow_girl said:


> When I was very young, I had adult men plying me with liquor and trying to get into my britches ...
> 
> I suppose I should hate all heterosexual men, eh?


You took my words out of context and then Inferred upon them.
If you had read my post and comprehended it that should of never happened.

Seriously what part of "Live and let live" has to do with hate?
Where did that come from if not you?
Please cite the homophobic hate I have spewed...

Just as someones free to pursue that life, I'm just as free to keep such things from mine.

There is a choice in the matter, people make tough choices daily.
Its not always what they want but they do it.

I accept that biology controls us to a certain degree, I also accept that environment shapes that biology. 
As pointed out in a prior post by another member, We are not always free to act upon those urges or desires. there is a reason why mankind considers themselves above all others in the animal kingdom, we make choices on thoughts and values rather then Instinct.

I am a firm believer that sexuality and sex are a personal matter and have no place out side of the personal life or bedroom. that goes for either persuasion.


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

oth47 said:


> Sure you're born straight..got any proof otherwise? And before you ask,I don't either.All we have are opinions,which are pretty much worthless.Be as gay as you want to be,just don't make excuses for it.."I can't help it".."God made me gay".."I was born this way"..baloney! You had a choice to accept that man's advances or turn'em down.Life is full of choices and consequences.


If you can say you were born straight why can't someone else say they were born gay?

Maybe because you're afraid of what it would mean to your theology. If God made people gay and one thing goes against all of your Scriptural base, then what does it mean to everything else you believe? It's a scary thought, isn't it? Better to stop the gays and never question the basis for your beliefs.....


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## Chuck (Oct 27, 2003)

bluesky said:


> I don't even know where to start.
> 
> So you're suggesting we all simply abdicate the use of logic and reason and find a "worldview" that is full of "revealed" wisdom and stick with it no matter what? I guess that greatly simplifies things. And by the way - I agree that my opinion doesn't affect what is True - but neither does yours. :cowboy:


Of course not. A worldview based on the belief in the existence of objective Truth is, without fail, the most logical way to approach the universe. 

A worldview based on your opinion is somehow better than the revealed word of God? I don't think that's very logical. 

Of course, I could be wrong, but you're going to have to show me an explanation of objective truth that logically doesn't include a truth giver. So far, I haven't seen any.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

AngieM2 said:


> If "gay" is a born occurance, why does it have to be pushed and sold so much to children and others? Hetro is not sold, pamlets are not made telling them they are hetro, etc.
> 
> Seems to me someone is protesting and selling too much, too hard to make a logical argument.
> 
> ...


You will see more and more of this as this country (and others) is given over to its sins and God's restraint on sin/s is lessened (and we move closer to the tribulation period).


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> God so loved the world (True)
> That He gave His only Son (True)
> to fix the world (*False*)
> that whoever Believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.(True)
> ...


 I concur.
If one misinterprets the first eleven capters of Genesis,, there's a good bet they will also misinterpret many other parts as well. That goes for ministers and teachers in each church also.
Basic fact,,, if you see one scripture that you think says one thing and another says the opposit,, you've misinterpreted one of them. As scripture,and scripture alone interprets scripture. GH

ETA: We cannot save anyone,, thats Gods job,, we are neverthe less hear to desciple,, that is the crux of the problem in many churches,, the lack of qualified descipleship ministries.
Its sad and unfortunate,, but the good side is,,, we each are responsible to study for ourselves,no one can ever blame another.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> So are some men born effeminate? Sure. Does that mean they HAVE to have sex with other men? Not at all.
> 
> Are some women born with more testosterone than normal? Sure. But it doesn't follow that they are therefore forced to act on that and marry a woman. We're all screwed up one way or another - that is what SIN in the world has done...it's messed up everything.


Yes, it's certainly an improvement if gay people pretend to be straight.

Gay young men should find a girlfriend; they're much less likely to be bullied that way ... never mind that she will probably spend a lot of time being depressed and questioning her attractiveness because her boyfriend doesn't seem to desire her in the way other girls' partners do. (Happened to my stepsister back in high school.)

And, of course, gay men should marry women and have children! That way, their wives can go through what my stepsister did ... and hear rumors and have suspicions ... and maybe contract a STD because their husband has been fulfilling his true needs with a male prostitute on the side. Finally, when the husband gets tired of living a lie, he can leave behind a broken home, a devastated wife and bewildered children in his wake. (I've seen that a few times, too.)

Wouldn't it be a lot better if we could just be honest about our sexuality in the first place? :stars:


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Of course not. A worldview based on the belief in the existence of objective Truth is, without fail, the most logical way to approach the universe.
> 
> A worldview based on your opinion is somehow better than the revealed word of God? I don't think that's very logical.
> 
> Of course, I could be wrong, but you're going to have to show me an explanation of objective truth that logically doesn't include a truth giver. So far, I haven't seen any.


There is absolutely no physical evidence of the existence of your god.

Your god could be present in this room with me. So could an invisible 800-lb. elephant. 

I can't prove or disprove the existence of either. 

That's objective truth.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

MDKatie said:


> And why do we care so much what a fast food company or office supply company does? Do you really let your fast food dictate your morals? Hilarious!


Man, I wish I could go back and like this again.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

willow_girl said:


> Yes, it's certainly an improvement if gay people pretend to be straight.
> 
> Gay young men should find a girlfriend; they're much less likely to be bullied that way ... never mind that she will probably spend a lot of time being depressed and questioning her attractiveness because her boyfriend doesn't seem to desire her in the way other girls' partners do. (Happened to my stepsister back in high school.)
> 
> ...


I had a couple of friends who were married right out of high school. They raised 2 good sons. Both parents were teachers at the same high school.
A couple of years ago after nearly 30 years together, the man decided to come out of the closet. He told his wife he was tired of living a lie. He explained he had always been gay but felt he had to get married and raise a family. They were divorced. The woman remarried and the man moved in with another man. Both still teach at the same school that both sons graduated from. 

Now the woman is happy as she has a chance to feel what it is like for a man to really love her. The man is happy as he don't have to live a lie anymore. Both sons are happy because their parents are finally happy.


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## Chuck (Oct 27, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> There is absolutely no physical evidence of the existence of your god.
> 
> Your god could be present in this room with me. So could an invisible 800-lb. elephant.
> 
> ...


Yes. You couldn't measure God with your five senses, or with any scientific instrument. But He's not the only thing that we know exists that is like that. What is the weight of a thought? How long is an emotion? Where do YOU exist? - the part of you that is directing your brain to think and your heart to emote - where does that part of you exist? If you lose an arm you aren't less Willow Girl. You are the same WG in a slightly smaller package. Where does the real WG exist?

We know moral law exists because we feel it working on us - we somehow know that certain things are (objectively) right and other things wrong. Who can measure the force that causes us to know that? Who can see it?

I submit that impetus - that "law" we all know because we feel it working on our hearts - exists in the same plane in which WE exist. Our souls. Nobody can quantify a soul. But we know it exists. (whether or not it is eternal is another question). I'm talking about that part of us which is....us. The thing that drives our mind, will and emotions. 

If you submit you don't have one of those - then, well, I can't help you.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Chuck said:


> We know moral law exists because we feel it working on us - we somehow know that certain things are (objectively) right and other things wrong. Who can measure the force that causes us to know that? Who can see it?


This is one thing that I do not have any questions about. 
We are taught what is right and wrong. Without that teaching we do not know which one is which.

We see the results of people who were not taught this at an early age.
It has to be forced on them later in life.


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## Chuck (Oct 27, 2003)

pancho said:


> This is one thing that I do not have any questions about.
> We are taught what is right and wrong. Without that teaching we do not know which one is which.
> 
> We see the results of people who were not taught this at an early age.
> It has to be forced on them later in life.


We may not all know which is which, but we all know right and wrong exist. That impetus exists from earliest childhood. A child instinctively KNOWS it's wrong when someone whacks him with a stick, or takes his toy. I've yet to see a kid that had to be taught about the EXISTENCE of right and wrong. 

But that's sort of ancillary to the main point. If a child knows anything, he knows this: that HE exists. He knows that he knows, if that makes sense. And that "thing" inside him that does the knowing, that's the un-quantifiable soul of a person. 

You can argue that the soul dies when the body dies, and since it can't be quantified scientifically, nobody can prove you wrong or right. But nobody can argue the soul doesn't exist without using the very thing they are arguing against.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Chuck said:


> We may not all know which is which, but we all know right and wrong exist. That impetus exists from earliest childhood. A child instinctively KNOWS it's wrong when someone whacks him with a stick, or takes his toy. I've yet to see a kid that had to be taught about the EXISTENCE of right and wrong.
> 
> But that's sort of ancillary to the main point. If a child knows anything, he knows this: that HE exists. He knows that he knows, if that makes sense. And that "thing" inside him that does the knowing, that's the un-quantifiable soul of a person.
> 
> You can argue that the soul dies when the body dies, and since it can't be quantified scientifically, nobody can prove you wrong or right. But nobody can argue the soul doesn't exist without using the very thing they are arguing against.


I agree, a child is born knowing that some things are right and some are wrong and it's surprising how early in their childhood they start trying to get away with doing wrong. When my kids were babies they would look around to see if I was looking and then reach for something they knew they shouldn't reach for. Even things I had never told them they couldn't have. If they saw me glancing their way they would jerk their hand back immediately.


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## Chuck (Oct 27, 2003)

Yep. Exactly.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

There have been several experiments done with small children. The one I remember the most is at whay age does a child learn to lie. If I remember right the average it is around 3 years old. It is taught. Parents do not plan on teaching their child to lie but kids learn it anyway. They don't know it is wrong, just that the outcome can be better than telling the truth. It doesn't take much longer for them to learn it is wrong but it is already too late.

If there isn't anyone to teach a child right from wrong they do not learn it.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Chuck said:


> Of course not. A worldview based on the belief in the existence of objective Truth is, without fail, the most logical way to approach the universe.
> 
> A worldview based on your opinion is somehow better than the revealed word of God? I don't think that's very logical.
> 
> Of course, I could be wrong, but you're going to have to show me an explanation of objective truth that logically doesn't include a truth giver. So far, I haven't seen any.


It's also quite possible to not have a one black-or-white monolithic, all-encompassing worldview.

And what people like to call "Objective Truth" is far from objective.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Nobody can quantify a soul. But we know it exists.


Umm, sorry -- no, we don't. The evidence for a 'soul' is about as scanty as the evidence for 'God.' There is no reliable evidence that any part of us survives death and is whisked off to frolic in another sphere. What evidence there is strongly suggests the dirt nap. 

I suspect the 'soul' was a construct invented before humans had the scientific capacity to understand consciousness and the workings of the brain. :shrug:


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> A couple of years ago after nearly 30 years together, the man decided to come out of the closet. He told his wife he was tired of living a lie. He explained he had always been gay but felt he had to get married and raise a family. They were divorced. The woman remarried and the man moved in with another man. Both still teach at the same school that both sons graduated from.
> 
> Now the woman is happy as she has a chance to feel what it is like for a man to really love her. The man is happy as he don't have to live a lie anymore. Both sons are happy because their parents are finally happy.


I am glad this story has a happy ending, but it isn't always the case. Just the other day, I was talking to a very sweet older lady whose husband abandoned her after 32 years of marriage. She now realizes he most likely is gay. Even 25 years after the breakup, she's still saddened by it, and has never had a relationship with another man.

Another case in point: I have an online acquaintance with a fellow who has confessed to me privately that while he's outwardly a married Christian man (one who frequently makes disparaging remarks about gays), he's actually been having sex with other men every chance he gets, starting in his teen years. He refuses to identify himself as gay or even bi. He considers gay marriage -- two men loving and cherishing each other -- to be an abomination, but feels that what he does is OK because it's merely "sexual gratification." I am astounded by his denial and self-loathing ... frankly, he's a mess, and I believe his inability to be honest with himself and others is causing him a great deal of distress. 

I think we'll see less of these situations as society changes and people are more empowered to be honest about their sexuality. At least I hope so!


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

pancho said:


> There have been several experiments done with small children. The one I remember the most is at whay age does a child learn to lie. If I remember right the average it is around 3 years old. It is taught. Parents do not plan on teaching their child to lie but kids learn it anyway. They don't know it is wrong, just that the outcome can be better than telling the truth. It doesn't take much longer for them to learn it is wrong but it is already too late.
> 
> If there isn't anyone to teach a child right from wrong they do not learn it.


I'd like to see the actual studies you mention because I dont' think lying is taught. I think it's self-preservation. Every kid is selfish, and that's because they want to do what's best for themselves...which is completely normal. It's parents who have to teach them not to lie. It's human nature to want to make sure we take care of ourselves first. Just like how baby birds don't sit back and wait until their siblings get enough to eat first...heck, they shove each other out of the nest sometimes!


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Even worse ... !


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> There have been several experiments done with small children. The one I remember the most is at whay age does a child learn to lie. If I remember right the average it is around 3 years old. It is taught. Parents do not plan on teaching their child to lie but kids learn it anyway. They don't know it is wrong, just that the outcome can be better than telling the truth. It doesn't take much longer for them to learn it is wrong but it is already too late.
> 
> If there isn't anyone to teach a child right from wrong they do not learn it.


I'm not sure I agree with you or the experiments. Kids aren't taught to lie, alt hough they may lie to get out of trouble. That's not teaching them to lie, it's them figuring it out on their own. I think everyone is born with a sense of what is right and wrong.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> We know moral law exists because we feel it working on us - we somehow know that certain things are (objectively) right and other things wrong. Who can measure the force that causes us to know that? Who can see it?


That's an easy one. It's the result of socialization by other humans in infancy and early childhood. 

Because this socialization happens so early in life, we may mistakenly think of it as something inherent, but it's not.

Google "feral children" for examples of how children turn out when they're NOT socialized.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

willow_girl said:


> I am glad this story has a happy ending, but it isn't always the case. Just the other day, I was talking to a very sweet older lady whose husband abandoned her after 32 years of marriage. She now realizes he most likely is gay. Even 25 years after the breakup, she's still saddened by it, and has never had a relationship with another man.
> 
> Another case in point: I have an online acquaintance with a fellow who has confessed to me privately that while he's outwardly a married Christian man (one who frequently makes disparaging remarks about gays), he's actually been having sex with other men every chance he gets, starting in his teen years. He refuses to identify himself as gay or even bi. He considers gay marriage -- two men loving and cherishing each other -- to be an abomination, but feels that what he does is OK because it's merely "sexual gratification." I am astounded by his denial and self-loathing ... frankly, he's a mess, and I believe his inability to be honest with himself and others is causing him a great deal of distress.
> 
> I think we'll see less of these situations as society changes and people are more empowered to be honest about their sexuality. At least I hope so!


I hope so also Willow.
Just think what a big problem we could solve if people would just let others live their own lives.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

MDKatie said:


> I'd like to see the actual studies you mention because I dont' think lying is taught. I think it's self-preservation. Every kid is selfish, and that's because they want to do what's best for themselves...which is completely normal. It's parents who have to teach them not to lie. It's human nature to want to make sure we take care of ourselves first. Just like how baby birds don't sit back and wait until their siblings get enough to eat first...heck, they shove each other out of the nest sometimes!


Then you would agree that people do not know right from wrong without being taught which is which?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> I'm not sure I agree with you or the experiments. Kids aren't taught to lie, alt hough they may lie to get out of trouble. That's not teaching them to lie, it's them figuring it out on their own. I think everyone is born with a sense of what is right and wrong.


Sounds like you are trying to argue both sides.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Sounds like you are trying to argue both sides.


In what way?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> I'm not sure I agree with you or the experiments. Kids aren't taught to lie, alt hough they may lie to get out of trouble. That's not teaching them to lie, it's them figuring it out on their own. I think everyone is born with a sense of what is right and wrong.


How do you think they know a lie will keep them out of trouble?
How do you know it is wrong to run a stop sign?
How do you know what is right and wrong?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> How do you think they know a lie will keep them out of trouble?
> How do you know it is wrong to run a stop sign?
> How do you know what is right and wrong?


The first question is a matter of logic. Kids are smarter than many give them credit for. As for the stop sign question, that was in learned because it's the law of the land, not really what I would consider a moral law. We are all born with an inate sense of what is right and wrong, it's called a conscience. We know it's not right to hurt others and most people, if honest with themselves and don't have psychological problems will feel guilty if they hurt another person, whether intentionally or not. My DS, who has several learning disabilities, is a big kid, always has been. Yet when he has accidently hurt another child he would burst into tears. He knew without being told that it's wrong to hurt others.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> The first question is a matter of logic. Kids are smarter than many give them credit for. As for the stop sign question, that was in learned because it's the law of the land, not really what I would consider a moral law. We are all born with an inate sense of what is right and wrong, it's called a conscience. We know it's not right to hurt others and most people, if honest with themselves and don't have psychological problems will feel guilty if they hurt another person, whether intentionally or not. My DS, who has several learning disabilities, is a big kid, always has been. Yet when he has accidently hurt another child he would burst into tears. He knew without being told that it's wrong to hurt others.


Come on Sonshine. Haven't you read about different tribes that didn't consider a male child a man until he had killed one of their enemeys?
How about cannibals who eat other people?

How did you know anything about the law of the land? If people quit teaching their kids the law of the land do you believe people would just keep on obeying the law?


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

Kids are inherently selfish. Look to those in and out of jail to see what happens when a conscience has not been TAUGHT from a young age.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Come on Sonshine. Haven't you read about different tribes that didn't consider a male child a man until he had killed one of their enemeys?
> How about cannibals who eat other people?
> 
> How did you know anything about the law of the land? If people quit teaching their kids the law of the land do you believe people would just keep on obeying the law?


You answered your own question. The tribes taught their children to kill or eat others. The laws of the land are taught. Those that most would consider moral laws are ingrained in most people.

Why do kids not kill other kids as a general rule? If it wasn't against the law, do you think they would start killing each other?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Why do kids not kill other kids as a general rule? If it wasn't against the law, do you think they would start killing each other?


They are not physically able to.
It has been on the local news for a couple of weeks. A man came into a daycare center where his 2 children were and slapped a 6 year old kid. Of course they hauled him off to jail.
The reason he slapped the kid was his children, one age 2 years and the other 11 months were being abused by another child.
When the man came in demanding who had been hurting his kids a 9 year old immediately pointed out the 6 year old. It wasn't the 6 year old, it was the 9 year old who had been doing it.
The cops got the footage of the 9 year old standing the 2 year old up and drop kicking him as hard as possible. The 11 month old was in a type of high chair. The 9 year old would go by and bite the baby then beat her with his fists as hard as possible.
The video was pretty sickening.
Imagine a 9 year old boy beating a 11 month old girl.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> They are not physically able to.
> It has been on the local news for a couple of weeks. A man came into a daycare center where his 2 children were and slapped a 6 year old kid. Of course they hauled him off to jail.
> The reason he slapped the kid was his children, one age 2 years and the other 11 months were being abused by another child.
> When the man came in demanding who had been hurting his kids a 9 year old immediately pointed out the 6 year old. It wasn't the 6 year old, it was the 9 year old who had been doing it.
> ...


Yes, they are physically able to. It doesn't take much physical strength to kill another. A


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Yes, they are physically able to. It doesn't take much physical strength to kill another. A


If you would have seen the video you would see how hard the 9 year old tried to damage the 11 month old girl.

They didn't allow weapons in the day care. But from the looks of the 9 year old I am sure he will have one soon enough.


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## CountryWannabe (May 31, 2004)

Ardie/WI said:


> One of my friends in high School was (and probably still is) a lesbian. We would sit together with other friends and talk about this very subject.


One of my favorite friends in HS was a gay boy/man. His orientation was more or less a secret because he feared what would happen to him if he were found out. He committed suicide when he was at University.

I have several gay friends, male and female. They understand that I am straight and have never tried to "recruit" me - how does anyone think that can happen?:stars: 

I have a female friend whose husband of 20 years finally admitted that he was gay and had married her as a cover. She had spent a lot of her married life worried that he was going to leave her because he didn't find her "attractive enough". When he finally told her - she was more relieved than anything because she realised that it wasn't anything that was her fault.

I strongly believe that a gay person has no choice in their orientation. No more than a hetero person has. There is nothing you can do that would make me want to be with a woman, and I am pretty sure the same holds true for a gay person.

Mary


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> We are all born with an inate sense of what is right and wrong, it's called a conscience.


I don't think so.

I think, in the absence of socialization, a child would seek out things it believes to be pleasurable, and avoid things it believes might cause it pain.

Watch a couple of little kids playing together. When one decides it wants a toy, it will take it from the other -- quite ruthlessly if necessary. And usually the resulting wails bring parental intervention, along with demands to share, take turns, etc. Socialization .. :shrug:


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## idonutn0 (Nov 18, 2011)

I always love these kinds of threads, because it all boils down to guilt in my opinion. Yes, I'm another straight person with gay friends.
My first question to people that say that being gay is a choice, I ask them, "then when did you decide you were straight?" The first thing they say is that "I was born that way" and I say "exactly." Ive had that simple question blow some peoples minds before believe it or not! 
When I say its mostly guilt, its because everyone has sexual thoughts, and even straight people have, if even for an instant, have gay thoughts. Find me a person that hasn't and Ill show you a liar. This is probably very upsetting to a person that has been raised to believe that being gay is a horrible sin, and people lash out against a group based on their personal thoughts. Perfect example is the Colorado shooter and all the cries for more gun control. Just because one person uses a gun to kill people doesn't mean that guns are a problem and need to be put back in the closet. Just because you as a straight person have a gay thought doesn't mean that being gay is wrong, or even that you are gay. 
Now if you are having gay thoughts because you are gay and not out, yet you bash other gays because they have the courage to be who they are and you dont, thats your problem that you need to deal with and you shouldn't be taking your personal pain out on strangers. 
Again, this is just my opinion, so...


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

oth47 said:


> You may be born blind or with black hair or brown skin,but born gay? I doubt it.Unless someone forces you into it,you choose to have that first same sex experience.Then you choose to have the second one,and the next,and the next,on and on.I don't know why some choose to be gay or bi,but I do believe it's a conscious choice of 2 orientations.


Got to agree I use to be involved with Swinging and of course they all pushed it as being Normal,had several that also pushed Gay,Bi,sex with animals and Children,they pushed it all as being Normal which in truth it's all Abnormal and I don't want it around me,my Kids or grandkids.

big rockpile


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

big rockpile said:


> Got to agree I use to be involved with Swinging and of course they all pushed it as being Normal,had several that also pushed Gay,Bi,sex with animals and Children,they pushed it all as being Normal which in truth it's all Abnormal and I don't want it around me,my Kids or grandkids.
> 
> big rockpile


Rock, if you used to be involved in it what makes you special?
Don't you realize you are one of the people that others are talking about?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

idonutn0 said:


> I always love these kinds of threads, because it all boils down to guilt in my opinion. Yes, I'm another straight person with gay friends.
> My first question to people that say that being gay is a choice, I ask them, "then when did you decide you were straight?" The first thing they say is that "I was born that way" and I say "exactly." Ive had that simple question blow some peoples minds before believe it or not!
> When I say its mostly guilt, its because everyone has sexual thoughts, and even straight people have, if even for an instant, have gay thoughts. Find me a person that hasn't and Ill show you a liar. This is probably very upsetting to a person that has been raised to believe that being gay is a horrible sin, and people lash out against a group based on their personal thoughts. Perfect example is the Colorado shooter and all the cries for more gun control. Just because one person uses a gun to kill people doesn't mean that guns are a problem and need to be put back in the closet. Just because you as a straight person have a gay thought doesn't mean that being gay is wrong, or even that you are gay.
> Now if you are having gay thoughts because you are gay and not out, yet you bash other gays because they have the courage to be who they are and you dont, thats your problem that you need to deal with and you shouldn't be taking your personal pain out on strangers.
> Again, this is just my opinion, so...


IMO, everyday each of us makes the decision on how we are going to live our lives, not just sexual preference either. I choose to live a heterosexual life. I choose to live my life according to my understanding of the Bible. I choose to live my life trying to be a decent person who wants to help those who are in need. I choose to live my life the way I am.


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## idonutn0 (Nov 18, 2011)

Sonshine said:


> IMO, everyday each of us makes the decision on how we are going to live our lives, not just sexual preference either. I choose to live a heterosexual life. I choose to live my life according to my understanding of the Bible. I choose to live my life trying to be a decent person who wants to help those who are in need. I choose to live my life the way I am.


That is 101% correct and how it should be, the problem is that some people cant leave it at that and let their self imposed guilt and self loathing dictate how they think others should live. I'm not saying you do this, its people in general. I'm all for live and let live and getting the government out of the marriage business across the board, but its hard for people to do when one group doesn't have the same rights as everyone else because they don't love the right person.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

idonutn0 said:


> That is 101% correct and how it should be, the problem is that some people cant leave it at that and let their self imposed guilt and self loathing dictate how they think others should live. I'm not saying you do this, its people in general. I'm all for live and let live and getting the government out of the marriage business across the board, but its hard for people to do when one group doesn't have the same rights as everyone else because they don't love the right person.


I agree. If the government wants to have their nose in a person's personal life, then get out of the marriage business altogether and change it to a civil union. Leave marriage to the individuals to determine how they will celebrate it.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

pancho said:


> Rock, if you used to be involved in it what makes you special?
> Don't you realize you are one of the people that others are talking about?


I left this and my wife at the time because I felt it wasn't normal and interfered with life that I enjoyed.

big rockpile


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

big rockpile said:


> Got to agree I use to be involved with Swinging and of course they all pushed it as being Normal,had several that also pushed Gay,Bi,sex with animals and Children,they pushed it all as being Normal which in truth it's all Abnormal and I don't want it around me,my Kids or grandkids.
> 
> big rockpile





pancho said:


> Rock, if you used to be involved in it what makes you special?
> Don't you realize you are one of the people that others are talking about?


You know you are not one Rock. You had enough sense to see it was wrong and then admit it. Don't believe this pile of garbage he is trying to lay on you.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

bluemoonluck said:


> My DS right now (at 5 months) openly flirts with women. A good friend of mine who is gay's mother said when he was this age he was flirting with men already. I doubt that any parent has had enough influence on their child by 5 months of age to push them towards heterosexuality or homosexuality.


Having lived a sheltered life, how does a 5 month old boy flirt with women? Lusting after the 'milk bar'? I could see. I'd rather not think about what a gay five month old would be lusting after....


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

big rockpile said:


> I left this and my wife at the time because I felt it wasn't normal and interfered with life that I enjoyed.
> 
> big rockpile


Rock, I have had to do about the same thing.
Some things a person has to leave behind to grow up.
Being mature has little to do with age.


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