# Angus over Dexter?



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

If this has been discussed I'm sorry.

So thinking on the Agmantoo model which I'm trying to adopt, I had this crazy idea that Dexters would be the perfect cows. Small, don't eat as much, are black. If you put an Angus over them you'd get a bigger cow, it's black, and it's good and meaty. 

Anyone else tried this?


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

Usually not recommended -- Dexters are small. But you could use a Dexter bull on Angus cows.


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

Do it the other way. Put a Dexter bull over Angus cows.

The Angus cows will be quite relieved to have smaller calves. You might have a problem with the smaller Dexter cows birthing larger calves.

The calves gain on grass as fast or faster than full Angus, but will only reach about 3/4 the size at harvest. At our local livestock market the lower weight puts them in a higher priced class.

All first generation calves will be black and polled. They tend to inherit the Dexter temperament, making them easier to handle. Depends upon your bull.

The calves are eligible for the Angus Certified label, since they have a minimum of 50% Angus blood and black skin.

Dangus is a good name for them.

Repeat customers usually buy all the stock at premium prices. It's rare for any to go to the auction. You have to do a little groundwork to establish a client list, but once they try, they're pretty loyal.

Mass marketing them you will encounter prejudice against the smaller sized cuts.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

I have no personal experience, but I don't see how a Dexter cross can gain the same as an Angus. Seems like they'd split the difference...? I don't see the attraction to Dexter, but maybe that's just me. A strain of small framed Angus seems like the best way to go. :duel:


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Gabriel said:


> I have no personal experience, but I don't see how a Dexter cross can gain the same as an Angus. Seems like they'd split the difference...? I don't see the attraction to Dexter, but maybe that's just me. A strain of small framed Angus seems like the best way to go. :duel:


Noun - heterosis - the tendency of a crossbred organism to have qualities superior to those of either parent. 
"hybrid vigor"

A well planned crossbred should outperform the straightbred animal, all environmental factors being even.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

MO_cows said:


> Noun - heterosis - the tendency of a crossbred organism to have qualities superior to those of either parent.
> "hybrid vigor"
> 
> A well planned crossbred should outperform the straightbred animal, all environmental factors being even.


 That was my thinking as well. My thought was that the smaller Dexter cows would increase my carry capacity, the cross would increase calf gain rates. I'm pretty new to this, but it seemed like a reasonable idea.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

I have a cow that is 3/4 dexter 1/4 angus. She is quite a bit bigger than my pure dexter. And she is the only high headed one I have. She isn't a cow you would want to corner in a corral. I been told thats the angus in her. Well...if thats the angus in her then I plan to avoid any more angus in my herd. My other girls are sweethearts.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Jackie said:


> I have a cow that is 3/4 dexter 1/4 angus. She is quite a bit bigger than my pure dexter. And she is the only high headed one I have. She isn't a cow you would want to corner in a corral. I been told thats the angus in her. Well...if thats the angus in her then I plan to avoid any more angus in my herd. My other girls are sweethearts.


I know a guy who has Dexters, most of them are fine... one of them isn't. :shrug: 



> heterosis


Good point.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Jackie said:


> I have a cow that is 3/4 dexter 1/4 angus. She is quite a bit bigger than my pure dexter. And she is the only high headed one I have. She isn't a cow you would want to corner in a corral. I been told thats the angus in her. Well...if thats the angus in her then I plan to avoid any more angus in my herd. My other girls are sweethearts.


You are condemning the entire breed, based on the behavior of ONE animal that is only 1/4 of that breed? Seriously?


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## Levonsa (Dec 17, 2008)

Have you considered Lowline over the Dexter? I think you are correct about smaller size allowing you to have more cattle.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Go with the Angus, greater gene base, longer track record of production, more availability of seedstock producers, etc.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

MO_cows said:


> You are condemning the entire breed, based on the behavior of ONE animal that is only 1/4 of that breed? Seriously?


yup! I can do whatever I want. If I dont feel like having any angus I wont. I don't want big cows anyway. Although in my experience the worst has been herfords.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

Levonsa said:


> Have you considered Lowline over the Dexter? I think you are correct about smaller size allowing you to have more cattle.


I'd second that if you want to go small. Lowlines are generally a more serious beef producer. You can also go for smaller framed standard angus. Might want to check out Pharo's lineup of bulls. I just bred a heifer to Colorado High, a red angus, and also got semen from Johnny B Good. Both rated highly on multiple traits including disposition. Also got the small framed hereford bull, 123.

They also have a couple lowline bulls - Machine, a black lowline angus is one I once wanted to try before I decided I didn't like black. Red Label is a red lowline angus.


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

An example of the stocking rate on a small farm:

I have 10 acres in fence. I can support 5 Angus or 10 Dexters. That includes a bull and calves. I count calves as 1/2 an adult.

Do the math.

I can have one bull, 6 cows and 6 calves if I go with Dexters. I can actually get 6 calves each year to sell. They bring $600 to $1500 apiece.

I can have one bull, 3 cows and 2 calves if I go with Angus. That gives me 2 calves to sell each year. They bring $600 to $1000 apiece.

If I eliminate the Angus bull and use AI instead, I can have another cow.

The Dexter plan brings in more money, but neither one is enough to live on. It's barely enough to provide a little spending money. It would take a much larger operation to make money.

So why not enjoy what I'm doing? I truly enjoy the Dexter cattle. They are so gentle that they're a delight to be around. If one is in your way, just give them a push and move them out of the way. Follow it with a pat or a rub, of course. I'm satisfied and happy.

I also go next door to work. He has Angus. I help him do things like give shots, pull calves and repair fences. It's hard work and you have to always be on guard when you're in the pasture. It ain't fun, it's work.

He tried to switch to Lowline Angus, but it was a failure. Bought 7 embryos from Australia and put them in Angus cows. Only got two calves, heifers, and neither of them was fertile.

I love Jackie's reply. "I can do whatever I want". Priceless.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Jackie said:


> yup! I can do whatever I want. If I dont feel like having any angus I wont. I don't want big cows anyway. Although in my experience the worst has been herfords.


Of course you can do whatever you want with your own herd. 

It just seems that with the number of newbies who come here to learn, that we all have a responsibility to post accurate and relevant information.

For the record - we have a couple Angus X Tarentaise in our herd and they have very good dispositions. 

Getting back to the original question - I would be very careful about birthweights and calving ease EPD when putting an Angus bull on Dexter cows.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

MO_cows said:


> It just seems that with the number of newbies who come here to learn, that we all have a responsibility to post accurate and relevant information.


+1



MO_cows said:


> For the record - we have a couple Angus X Tarentaise in our herd and they have very good dispositions.


I have a couple of full Angus and they're not aggressive. As to "having" to pull calves from Angus, not all of them are like that. Popular cattle saying is "there is more variation within a breed than between breeds". Some truth in that. Read the rotational grazing thread, you'll see Agmantoo's small framed (predominantly) Angus that are mild mannered and give birth unassisted. So go with what you like!


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## ramiller5675 (Mar 31, 2009)

Gabriel said:


> As to "having" to pull calves from Angus, not all of them are like that.


I'll bet that you are going to be pulling a heck of lot more calves from a Dexter cow bred to an Angus bull than you ever will from an Angus cow bred to an Angus bull.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

ramiller5675 said:


> I'll bet that you are going to be pulling a heck of lot more calves from a Dexter cow bred to an Angus bull than you ever will from an Angus cow bred to an Angus bull.


 How about a Dexter to a lowline?


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

I personally love the Lowlines. I bred my Jersey cow to a Lowline and just put that calf in the freezer. SPECTACULAR carcass. Grass fed only and he had more than enough fat!


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

genebo said:


> He tried to switch to Lowline Angus, but it was a failure. Bought 7 embryos from Australia and put them in Angus cows. Only got two calves, heifers, and neither of them was fertile.


What did the "failure" have to do with the breed? Ordering embryos from Australia and putting them in cows obviously involves risk.



Trisha in WA said:


> I personally love the Lowlines. I bred my Jersey cow to a Lowline and just put that calf in the freezer. SPECTACULAR carcass. Grass fed only and he had more than enough fat!


I recall us talking about the lowlines, the red ones in particular. Makes me miss my cow that was Jersey/Lowline cross. Over a gallon a day for the family and also raised calves like this steer, out of a mostly lowline bull. Like you said, great beef - I sold some to family and they couldn't get over how good it was, to which I suggested they might pay me more, to which there was silence.


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## tonyb (Jul 4, 2011)

Hey InvalidID, earlier this year I was thinking along the same lines as you are, a herd of small Dexter cows to maximize stocking density, then bred to some beef bull (Angus or Hereford) to get marketable sized calves.....and I got the same advice you've been getting here. So instead we bred our Dexter heifer to a Lowline bull (AI actually) in September.

Since we're new at this, we're still in the "experimentation" phase (hence only 1 heifer), so we'll see how it goes.


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

Dexters are just about in the middle, between a dairy type and a beef type. That's what makes them so great for a small landholder, without enough acreage to raise some of each.

A Lowline is a beef animal. Breeding a Dexter with a Lowline, you can expect to get a calf that produces less milk, but is beefier.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Another thought is the heifers that you'd get would likely make some awesome breeders right? If you bred a Dexter to a Lowline the heifer would be bigger, but still not too big right? If you bread that back to a Lowline you should get some pretty nice market calves yeah?

I think I might give it a shot, but it really is nice to get some feed back first. Thanks to everyone that's contributed.


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## Levonsa (Dec 17, 2008)

I wish that I had a few heifers from that cross here on our farm.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Interesting thread. 
If it were possible to get big calves from small cows, everyone would have done it. Calving problems will undo any savings you expect to get with a small cow. Plus, cutting a hip-locked calf out of your cute little cow provides a horrible memory for a long while.

It is calving weight that you should be looking at, along with a bull with a bloodline of calving ease. When you start crossing this with that plus a bit of something else, it becomes a crap shoot as to what you'll end up with.

Breeding cattle within a specific breed has lots of variables, I wouldn't feed my "what if....." impulse on something that could end tragically.


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

If you want something that'll graze anything, and you want to take advantage of the black market, I would look at Galloways. Belties sell for a bit as ornaments, too.

Personally I would run Wagyu cows with a Lowline bull. Haypoint is exactly right, calving problems are the best way to find yourself with red marks, not black marks. Wagyus are known for top quality beef and aren't too big.


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## SteveO (Apr 14, 2009)

Evening All,
This sounds like all the thoughts I have had for the last 2 yrs. We settled on 1/2 lowline/angus. And shuold have them in a week or 2. Not as small as a pure lowline and not as pricey either. One thing you need to figure ot is who or what am I selling breeding stock of meat on the hoof. One thing I have found you will not get as good a return if you go to the sale barn you will have more time tied up to get to the same weight.
But a 700lb cow that is an adult would split between 2 families and fit in the frezzer to. If you had a 1500lb cow dessed would be 750 +lbs so half would be 375ish which is a LOT OF BEEF>
See if that nitch is there for you
We are looking to eat the bulls and sell the heifers Which will be 3/4 lowline
At least that is the plan today.
Most of all the animals reflect the owner and the handling they recieve ours are docile and seem to be stress free. If we can keep it that way life should be good
Thats my 2 cents for what it's worth
Most of all you need to enjoy what ever direction you end up.
the wagyu are still concidered more pets and not serious cattle
Steve


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## cedarcreekranch (Nov 24, 2010)

I don't understand the reasoning behind crossing a dexter with a lowline - if you want a small dairy cow cross a mini or small frame jersey with a lowline - then you'll get both milk and beef. Lowlines vary quite a bit sizewise in the breed but generally produce a carcass about 60% of a large frame animal. I know a gal who raises Dexters and loves them BUT even she admits she grinds them all into hamburger - steaks aren't that good. I am only repeating what she told me and she has a lot of Dexters. I know my lowline angus produce wonderful steaks, roasts, and burger and my jersey/lowline heifer plenty of milk, too. And our lowlines are all gentle, easy to handle critters - a lot of that comes from handling. So don't rush to lowlines unless you just love the dexters and want to have them for that reason and not to make beef or $$$. Just my opinion - have had cattle all my life & lowlines the past few years. Good luck!


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

A Lowline Angus IS an Angus. They were only selected for size. Genetically, they are still the same. A Lowline is a smaller version, but with all the same characteristics. Breeding a Lowline to an Angus should give a very predictable result: a calf that matured larger than a Lowline and smaller than an Angus.

A Dexter is about the ame size as a Lowline Angus, but where the Lowline is a pure beef animal, the Dexter is not as beefy, while being milkiy enough to supply milk for a small family. A Dexter is more of a family cow.

A reason for breeding a Dexter to a Lowline would be to gain some of the Dexter traits, while retaining the beefiness of the Lowline. Maybe you'd end up with a calf that was more of the temperament to be milked, and gave you enough milk for someone with small needs, yet was still a pretty beefy animal.

Dexter beef has been in contests with other breeds of beef for years, and if it doesn't win outright, it finishes near the top. In one contest judged by famous chefs, Dexter won, Angus was second and Kobe was third. In the ALBC's blind taste test, Randall Lineback and the original Galloway took first and second, Dexter was third. Angus was fourth, but didn't get a single first place vote. Each of the first three did.

Dexter beef doesn't have to take a back seat to any other beef, either in taste or in yield, and to have the same animal give great milk at the same time makes them in a class by themselves.

Nothing can compare with Angus as a commercial beef producer, The whole beef industry lives on Angus. But for a small landholder, wanting a milk cow that will give you a beef calf, a Dexter can't be beat.

Jerseys are great milk cows, but have flaws. Mean bulls and low yielding calves. Crossing with a dexter is a very popular thing to do, for both resons. Getting a calf that has an increased yield of beef and a gentle enough temperament to live long enough to make the beef is a benefit that is well worth the drop in milk production. Not too many families are big enough to use all the milk that a Jersy gives, anyway.

Lots of people are trying to establish a whole new breed starting with Dexter and Jersey. If they can fix it so that the offspring will breed true, they'll have it.

On a scale of 1 to 10 for beefiness, a Lowline would score near a 10, while a jersey would score nearer a 1. Crossing the two can't be expected to yield a lot of beef.

On a scale of 1 to 10 for milkiness, a Jersey would score near a 9, while a Lowline would score nearer to a 1. You could expect a sizeable drop in milk production.

Dexters would score near the top in beef yield and still score around a 5 in milk production. That's hard to beat with any cross-breed.


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## Skip (Mar 13, 2008)

...I know a gal who raises Dexters and loves them BUT even she admits she grinds them all into hamburger - steaks aren't that good. [/QUOTE said:


> My 15 year old teen was eating a steak and he was loving it. He asked where I bought it?
> 
> It was the young dexter bull we had bought. The bull was grass fed, did not know what to do with grain or sweet feed. We butchered him ourselves, doubt he hung for even a week.
> 
> ...


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Skip said:


> Invalid, the way I'm thinking is to *first define my market*, then figure out how to produce my product in a way that the work doesn't seem like an unbearable chore and is profitable.


Absolutely. Sell people what they want, not what you think they need.


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## Maria (Apr 24, 2003)

I have a registered 3/4 lowline bull that I breed to my dexter and pineywoods cows. (The other quarter is plain angus) So far, the resultant offspring have not been near as beefy as their sire.

My dexter cow has had two calves by him. The first has grown to halfway between the mother and the father's size and is ready to be butchered, but the second seems to be a dwarf. :huh: She's half the size of her half siblings.  I don't know what I'm going to do with her. We have to provide her with a smaller water tub just so she can drink. That's going to be annoying this winter.

Anyway, we haven't had a single bit of calving trouble with this bull. Our dexter cow isn't all dexter- she's one quarter mini jersey- and she's only been bred to this bull. He, at least, seems to sire calves suited to the mother's size. I can't speak for the rest of the breed, but we like him. He stays roly poly fat on grass and hay alone.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

InValidID, isn't your plan to turn the cattle out and not have to check on them?

What sort of predators do you have in your area? If there is anything bigger than a raccoon, I'd expect the bigger cattle to be able to take better care of themselves.

I'd be really surprised if you don't have cougars. A cougar will kill a horse colt and a 6 month old colt is about the size of a dexter, which seems to me would put Dexter on the menu.

You've probably got black bear, too, although I've never heard of a black bear killing a cow. It might be a different story with an itty bitty cow. You are now talking the size of a mule deer, so that increases the possible predators.

Coyotes will take on a calf. Not usually attack a full sized cow, but I don't know how a pack of coyotes would feel about a half size cow.

Everyone I know of with little cattle keeps their cattle in the pasture right at their house. I don't know how well small cattle deal with predators, but it is something to consider very carefully, since you want cattle that you don't want to supervise.


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