# Deep Wells - How do we get water when the power goes out?



## dicksons7 (Jul 31, 2013)

We live in the Missouri Ozarks. Our wells (2) are over 500 feet deep. What options are there for pulling water out of wells this deep? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I have a generator that I use strictly for my well when the power goes out.. You only need to run it when your pressure drops too low. Just run it as long as it takes the pump to fill the bladder tank again...

My well isn't hard wired for just this reason. It's plugged into an outlet so I can unplug it, and run it to the generator.


----------



## Oldshep (Mar 28, 2015)

http://bisonpumps.com/


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I helped my brother install a generator transfer switch , it makes switch over both very safe and very easy , so much so he walked his wife who had never done it through it over the phone in about 15 minutes , including rolling the generator out of the garage plugging it into the connection on the exterior of the house , and starting the generator , then inside through the switch and done all the refrigerators and freezers , septic lift , well pump and hot water boiler all running


if you think about how many gallons of water you can pump on a gallon of gas it's a lot , its faster and easier than any other method


----------



## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

simi-steading said:


> I have a generator that I use strictly for my well when the power goes out.. You only need to run it when your pressure drops too low. Just run it as long as it takes the pump to fill the bladder tank again...
> 
> My well isn't hard wired for just this reason. It's plugged into an outlet so I can unplug it, and run it to the generator.


Were having ours changed over this week. Ironically, our electrician said that the previous owners had him remove the "pigtail" and hard wire it.


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Research airlift pump or air bubble water pump.

One advantage of this system is the air supply can be placed far away from the well so you can use wind power to pump water even if the well is in a valley.


----------



## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I helped my brother install a generator transfer switch , it makes switch over both very safe and very easy , so much so he walked his wife who had never done it through it over the phone in about 15 minutes , including rolling the generator out of the garage plugging it into the connection on the exterior of the house , and starting the generator , then inside through the switch and done all the refrigerators and freezers , septic lift , well pump and hot water boiler all running
> 
> 
> if you think about how many gallons of water you can pump on a gallon of gas it's a lot , its faster and easier than any other method


What Green said is the right way to do it.


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I saw two old well buckets for sale at the local flea market last week. All you need is armstrong power.


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

[No message]


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Darren said:


> I saw two old well buckets for sale at the local flea market last week. All you need is armstrong power.


Well buckets are great except to use them you would most likely have to pull your pump out to allow them to fit into the casing


----------



## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

dicksons7 said:


> We live in the Missouri Ozarks. Our wells (2) are over 500 feet deep. What options are there for pulling water out of wells this deep? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


*Hello Neighbor! *









We're here in the Ozarks too, I know exactly how you feel. We were in the exact same situation when we moved here about a year and half ago. Our well is 450 feet deep. Wish we had a 2nd well, just in case something happened to this one. 

I just posted a thread with an update to what we decided to do about a power system. Our Main concern was how to get water out of our well during a power outage or grid down situation. At these depths, hand pumps don't really work, unless its a windmill or other larger type pumps, which are expensive systems. I've used a well bucket in the past, and they're fine for shallow wells. But buckets don't work at these depths either _(as someone joked)_ as the rope and well bucket would be to heavy to lift. _(Weight of water, plus bucket, plus 500+ feet of rope = )_ unless you had some type of motorized pulley, or a pulley system and several people to pull and switch out. Which is still not considering the amount of time it would take just to bring up one bucket of water, or other issues. 

In our solution, we didn't choose the 'common' path of a solar system setup, we ended up going a little different. As we re-evaluated how much power we really needed, and what we really needed to run. In the end we decided only the well was actually a *Need*. Although we can run most anything else that we want to within reason, but we can only do it for a few hours at a time, which meets our needs. 

If interested, you can read the route we took *HERE*

Hope you get a solution that works for you.
~Peace


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

My question would be,
What is the standing water level in that 500 foot well?

If you aren't sucking on that well with an electric pump dangling a few feet off the bottom,
Where will the water level hold at?


----------



## ceresone (Oct 7, 2005)

I, too, am in the Missouri Ozarks. Our well is 725' and has standing water at just 200' down. We had to replace Pump and pipe this past year, which is how I know. Rural water lines close too.


----------



## GeneratorPower (Dec 19, 2015)

Wow. All these people with deep wells. Here in FL the wells are very shallow; less than 75 feet sometimes. But when we lived in Missouri wells were frequently 500-750 feet easy. I run a generator business so I wanted to weigh in on the well pumps running off generators at these depths.

The biggest *risk* I see with a generator on a deep well pump is voltage drop and burning out the pump motor. The motor size required to pump water 500 feet up is substantial, as much as 3+ horsepower. Any 3 HP motor will draw a lot of starting current during the first 1/2 second of operation (as the pump turns on). This in turn causes voltage drop. And voltage drop can cause motor burn out over time, or failure to start the motor at all. 

A particular generator might work fine for a little while, but at some point it could cause well pump burnout unexpectedly. So you need to make sure that the generator is capable of enough surge-starting output to prevent this.

Furthermore, there are lots of low quality generators on the market that have very little surge-starting capability. These are the primary culprits for burned well pump motors. A 5,000 watt generator may advertise a "whopping" 6750 starting watts. But this is paltry. A good quality 5,000 watt generator will surge to 15,000 watts for motor starting.

Look for a generator that has an official, published "motor starting rating" such as a Winco generator. Match the generator to the well pump horsepower, and be conservative, knowing that a lot of voltage is lost with the 500 feet of copper wire leading to the well pump.


----------



## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

GeneratorPower said:


> Wow. All these people with deep wells. Here in FL the wells are very shallow; less than 75 feet sometimes. But when we lived in Missouri wells were frequently 500-750 feet easy. I run a generator business so I wanted to weigh in on the well pumps running off generators at these depths.
> 
> The biggest *risk* I see with a generator on a deep well pump is voltage drop and burning out the pump motor. The motor size required to pump water 500 feet up is substantial, as much as 3+ horsepower. Any 3 HP motor will draw a lot of starting current during the first 1/2 second of operation (as the pump turns on). This in turn causes voltage drop. And voltage drop can cause motor burn out over time, or failure to start the motor at all.
> 
> ...



So how does a well pump compare to an RV 15000 btu air conditioner? Starting requirement wise? We have a Coleman-Mach 15 and our Onan will run that, the microwave and the coffee pot (OR tv). How would that fare for the well pump in a 400ft well?


----------



## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

Terri, there is a good chance your air conditioner has a current limiting circuit. My home air conditioner has one. There is no reason a well pump couldn't also use a same or similar circuit.


----------



## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Bearfoot: and dont you have to have a truck with lift to pull a deep well pump? You can also buy one use well buckets (check with your water testing company or health dept) you can re use them for self use.


----------



## BohemianWaxwing (Sep 13, 2014)

Instead of going to all the expense and trouble of generators etc. to keep the pump alive during a week or so outage, why not install a 500 gallon cistern to catch rainwater and just use that during an emergency? Cheap and easy and nearly fail proof if you have a way to filter it for drinking.


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Put in a Gundfos SQ series pump. They run on AC, or you can switch to run on a few hundred watts (depends on water depth and volume you want delivered) of DC solar panels. Set up the AC side first, add the solar as you go along, and be free of generator power for your water.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Forcast said:


> Bearfoot: and dont you have to have a truck with lift to pull a deep well pump? You can also buy one use well buckets (check with your water testing company or health dept) you can re use them for self use.


There are several ways to pull them but they all require some rigging and power of some sort whether it's mechanical or manpower.

It's not something anyone would want to do during an "emergency" and it's far easier to just power the existing pump


----------



## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

BohemianWaxwing said:


> Instead of going to all the expense and trouble of generators etc. to keep the pump alive during a week or so outage, why not install a 500 gallon cistern to catch rainwater and just use that during an emergency? Cheap and easy and nearly fail proof if you have a way to filter it for drinking.


We have 3000 gallons of water stored. That won't last long in the desert with a garden and livestock. 60 gallons a day for livestock + 18 or so a day for people will drain that tank fairly quick, even faster if we try to keep the garden alive.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted by BohemianWaxwing View Post
> Instead of going to all the expense and trouble of generators etc. to keep the pump alive during a week or so outage, why not install a 500 gallon cistern to catch rainwater and just use that during an emergency? Cheap and easy and nearly fail proof if you have a way to filter it for drinking.


A generator can run the pump for a short time each day to provide all the water needs, and can also keep refrigerators and freezers going.

Depending on where one lives, power outages can be longer than a few days.

After hurricanes here some places can be out for a month


----------



## mustangglp (Jul 7, 2015)

For my mine set at 120 feet I use the poly pipe 1 1/2 which allows me to pull it with an a frame pulley and the tractor or truck in low range one person driving and me keeping it from tubing on the casing takes about 15 minutes.
I keep going smaller over that last 35 years its went from a 5hp 3 phase above ground motor with 3 inch steel pipe to a 1hp 220 volt way easier to work on .
Last Summer I bought the smallest 110 pump I could find that would work at the depth need with the idea of using solar with A 1500 watt inverter or if need my 5th wheel generator haven't tried it so ? If I can pump for five minutes a day that would be a 100 gallons.


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Forcast said:


> Bearfoot: and dont you have to have a truck with lift to pull a deep well pump?



Depends on the setup. Wells less than 100', using poly or PVC, you can pull by hand.

We've installed and pulled all ours at various times (4 so far) at depths from 100 to 350'. We use screw together sch40 PVC in 20' joints. I made a small adapter using a 1" x 5' threaded steel pipe with a ^ welded on one end to hook a chain, then thread the other end into the top of the pitless adapter to pull it first using a tractor front loader. 

Then put a small pipe vise type clamp on the pipe, let it back down on the casing, take the chain off the first pull, hook it on the pipe vise and raise the pipe another 5', (high as I can conveniently reach) hook a second vise on the pipe, set it back down on the casing....and keep repeating this until the pump is out. Little slower than a pump truck, but I don't have a pump truck....


----------



## GeneratorPower (Dec 19, 2015)

terri9630 said:


> So how does a well pump compare to an RV 15000 btu air conditioner? Starting requirement wise? We have a Coleman-Mach 15 and our Onan will run that, the microwave and the coffee pot (OR tv). How would that fare for the well pump in a 400ft well?


Well pumps and RV air conditioners are very different animals. A well pump at deep depth will be around 2 to 3HP, especially if it is large enough to pump decent volumes of water. An RV air conditioner is around 1 HP, give or take. But a well pump typically requires 240 volts whereas RVs are typically 120 volt. My guess is your well pump wouldn't operate on an Onan RV generator because it probably doesn't output 240 volts at all. Some Onan models do, but most don't.


----------



## GeneratorPower (Dec 19, 2015)

Explorer said:


> Terri, there is a good chance your air conditioner has a current limiting circuit. My home air conditioner has one. There is no reason a well pump couldn't also use a same or similar circuit.


In my experience, RV air conditioners may or may not have a start-assist module. An RV expert told me recently that after about 2010, the major RV manufacturers deleted the start-asssit packs on air conditioners to save money, so if you want to run these models off a small generator, you have to purchase and install a start-assist kit.

Not sure what you mean by a well pump using the same circuit. Are you saying a well pump can use the same electrical power source as an RV air conditioner, or are you saying a start-assist kit can be installed on a well pump?


----------



## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

I am saying if there is a current limiting device for one there should be a *similar* device available for a well pump.



GeneratorPower said:


> In my experience, RV air conditioners may or may not have a start-assist module. An RV expert told me recently that after about 2010, the major RV manufacturers deleted the start-asssit packs on air conditioners to save money, so if you want to run these models off a small generator, you have to purchase and install a start-assist kit.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by a well pump using the same circuit. Are you saying a well pump can use the same electrical power source as an RV air conditioner, or are you saying a start-assist kit can be installed on a well pump?


----------



## GeneratorPower (Dec 19, 2015)

Explorer said:


> I am saying if there is a current limiting device for one there should be a *similar* device available for a well pump.


You know, I've never encountered that, so I will let others reply. Doing a quick internet search, however, showed me a few soft-start modules for well pumps, however the prices were $1,000+. Seems less expensive to just buy a suitable generator.


----------



## MattB4 (Jan 3, 2016)

If you are unsure what the size of your well pump is, or it's amp draw, you can get a electrician to test it for you with a clamp on ammeter. Knowing the amps you can calculate the wattage. Size your genset about 1/3 larger. Understand that you can reduce the starting current by not starting the well pump under pressure. Most well pumps cycle between 30psi and 50psi. That adds a considerable load since 30 psi is equivalent to being almost 70 feet added to your overall depth of well. 

Just because it is deepwell does not imply you have a large HP pump. Depending on the number of pump stages, a smaller HP pump can pump from very deep. It will not pump as much gpm as a larger HP pump would with less stages.


----------



## stevesmitty79 (Dec 25, 2005)

We installed our own well pump. The well is 305'. The pump is at 240'. It's a Franklin 1HP 240VAC J series V class, pumping 15gpm. It's a three wire (four with ground) and run it off a B&S 5500watt generator with an 8500 watt surge.

Franklin recommends minimum 4kw for 1HP, 5kw for 1.5HP and 7.5kw for 2HP motors when using a generator for a three wire pump. For two wire, add 50% capacity.

You can find generator driven pump info on page 5:

http://www.franklinwater.com/media/110562/M1311_60_Hz_AIM_12-14-WEB.pdf


A three wire with capacitor at the control box with minimum size wire to pump acts as a soft start circuit, limiting the draw on a generator. That's why I configured ours this way to utilize most available units in a decent wattage range.

You can also see some video on generator run deep wells on my youtube channel for some reference:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1f1TGqcCe4[/ame]

We also installed a 1400 gallon cistern for a reserve. See that series there too.


----------



## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

stevesmitty79 said:


> We installed our own well pump. The well is 305'. The pump is at 240'. It's a Franklin 1HP 240VAC J series V class, pumping 15gpm. It's a three wire (four with ground) and run it off a B&S 5500watt generator with an 8500 watt surge.
> 
> *A three wire with capacitor at the control box with minimum size wire to pump acts as a soft start circuit*, limiting the draw on a generator. That's why I configured ours this way to utilize most available units in a decent wattage range.


What does that in bold cost?


----------



## stevesmitty79 (Dec 25, 2005)

The Franklin pump last year ran about $450. I bought it off eBay, best price. I think they still have a few. The 12ga. 3-wire is roughly a buck a foot, so $250. The matching Franklin control box was $50/$60, again eBay but from another vendor. So maybe eight bills and no labor cost. Minus pipe, coupling, electric tape, misc consumables.


----------



## hickerbillywife (Feb 28, 2014)

We too live in the Missouri Ozarks and recently had an estimate on our well. I also asked about an off grid well pump. I have looked into one called the water boy/ water buck model. You can google it for more info. They have a 417 area code so I think they are local.


----------



## stevesmitty79 (Dec 25, 2005)

We installed a 1400 gallon cistern for an immediate reserve. I plan on getting another in the Spring located elsewhere.

I have a Simple Pump with DC motor that runs off our solar golf cart. At any depth past 100 feet, most manual pumps just won't put out much. We quickly outgrew ours within a few years as our small animals herds grew. It's out for maintenance and it sits there. I paid quite a bit for it. I suppose in an emergency, if everyone were to pump water for themselves it would be ok, but that's going to get old quick.

So, we installed a 1k gal propane tank. We have a propane genny, and several others that can be quickly converted with simple supplies. 

I did a rough calculation and figured I can pump about a million gallons of water with that fuel. That's not to include my unleaded gas reserves. Just a thought for those concerned. Propane last a long time. There are bunches of it everywhere. Most people use it exclusively for either heating or cooking, but what then when power and food run out? There will be bottles of it everywhere for the taking.


----------



## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Long term, as in the power never comes back on, you have two options.... an expensive DC powered pump, powered by a large solar panel, or do without water. DC systems do work, but they're mighty proud of them....

Without easily accessible water (surface is the bestest... one can always monitor how much is left) life is tenuous.

Cheapest and most efficient alternative, for short term power outages, is to simply avoid ever needing to do any pumping, during an emergency... which would mean you'd need to have built an above ground storage system for water. 55 gallon barrels are cheap and, if you only use the water for drinking and eating (no washy washy or toilets) will get you ~55 person days worth of water.... one person for 55 days or 55 people for one day. Better yet, get a human grade quality 240 gallon tote, and spend ten bucks on plumbing parts to get the oversize fittings down to usable sizes (I have one plumbed down to a water hose fitting, for watering the fruit trees)....

Best would be a larger tank (several thousand gallons) located 'above' the house (on a hill, slope) or on an elevated deck.... so you fill the tank up, and have gravity flow into the house...

Remember, if the power is out forever, you're probably going to have more important things to do, than reel up 700 of rope to get a gallon of water at a time... Unless you have lots of extra hands around the homestead..... Sooooooo much easier to 'tank up' now, while one can still scrounge up free tanks...


----------



## stevesmitty79 (Dec 25, 2005)

Yeah, the DC power option wasn't cheap. I think it ran me an extra grand to the total bill. But, I preferred it to hand pumping, but I did get the extra long handle anyway. At first we hand pumped out water for months when we were by ourselves, just to gauge the labor. It's not too bad when you use composting toilets and take bucket baths only when necessary. Eventually, we started acquiring certain breeds and those grew over the first couple of years. We were quickly forced to install the DC option and ran it every day for several hours to fill IBC totes. From there, we would DC pump water for showers, which was nice. Even so, that couldn't keep up, so I finally installed the submersible and decided to run it off a generator, since I wanted to stay off grid. The entire purpose of the exercise is to know you can survive if all else fails, so we didn't take the easy way out. The cistern is a big help as it's an emergency reserve right off the bat and you don't have to fill it but when it's empty. If I were pressed, I'd only keep a minimum breeding stock and either consume, or trade the remaining stock to keep water usage to only what was necessary in the case of limited utilities and fuel resources. Eventually, if one lives long enough, that too would run out. Just some food for thought.


----------



## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

We have discussing the water issue here. We currently have a back-up whole house gen. . This year during Thanksgiving the power line between the well and the house went (the well is 300 feet away from power). Having the gen didn't help at all.

So, the only possible back-up solution I can think of is water in 55 gallon barrels. That can be rolled in to dethaw in the house.

Anyone have any other idea's on how to store water in large amounts when the high temps have been -2 around here? Besides moving up to Alaska where it is warmer.:surrender:


----------



## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Ziptie said:


> We have discussing the water issue here. We currently have a back-up whole house gen. . This year during Thanksgiving the power line between the well and the house went (the well is 300 feet away from power). Having the gen didn't help at all.
> 
> So, the only possible back-up solution I can think of is water in 55 gallon barrels. That can be rolled in to dethaw in the house.
> 
> Anyone have any other idea's on how to store water in large amounts when the high temps have been -2 around here? Besides moving up to Alaska where it is warmer.:surrender:


Move down here?? It's 65 today.


----------



## Midgard (Jan 23, 2015)

After reading these posts, I realize just how lucky we are. Our water is gravity-fed from a spring up the hill. Even though we had to cut back on water during last summer's drought, that hasn't happened for 15 years or longer.

A friend has a small solar system which is converted to 240 volts and is used exclusively to power his well pump should the power fail. I would also suggest a large holding tank.

Best of luck.

Ed


----------



## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Midgard said:


> After reading these posts, I realize just how lucky we are. Our water is gravity-fed from a spring up the hill. Even though we had to cut back on water during last summer's drought, that hasn't happened for 15 years or longer.
> 
> A friend has a small solar system which is converted to 240 volts and is used exclusively to power his well pump should the power fail. I would also suggest a large holding tank.
> 
> ...


Same here.... after the first two years living here, my well went dry... so I built a 'pond'.... next year, a drought hit, and it almost went dry (gravity fed to the house).... built a bigger one (an acre).... it got low a few years later.... then went whole hog, and built an 8 acre one, 34' feet deep. Had three separate droughts, and only lost ~5 feet... figure I have water, for a six year period, with no rain whatsoever....


----------



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

When the power goes out here for a extended period one of the guys with a deep well just hooks his pick up truck with a contractor grade contractor converter package to pump water into his house and barn to refill the necessary water cans for cooking , drinking, sponge bathing and toilet flushing.


----------



## Rivmage (Dec 24, 2012)

There are wind mill water pumps....

Scott


----------



## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

Our well isn't as deep but we have a pipe that runs underground from the well into the cellar of our house. A hand pump is in the cellar attached. Hand pumps are reliable and great exercise when filling buckets! The only repair we have done is to make new leathers for Those we cut out and make from old soft leather gloves. Last week the electric pump quit and the hand pump just keeps on working.


----------



## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

Maybe this is a silly question and I should know it but....
I am still wondering what people do in the colder parts of the world(where the highs are in the neg for a week or so) for water storage? Melt snow? What if there is no snow? Is having a well and a pump the only option? If we have a pond are we to cut blocks of ice out and then melt it?


----------

