# Why is common core so bad?



## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

Someone asked me about it today...I really didn't think it was that bad of a thing and they were horrified.

Yes the federal gov is should let kind of stuff be left to the states, but saying that moving around from place to place in my youth things would have been a whole lot easier if everyone was on the same page.

Next they said the core is to easy, well their is nothing that I have read saying if a child completes the standards for the year that they can't keep going.

Yah, the kids have to take test...well that is school. I kind of like them then I can see what my child didn't understand and we focus on that.

So, what am I missing?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Ziptie said:


> Someone asked me about it today...I really didn't think it was that bad of a thing and they were horrified.
> 
> Yes the federal gov is should let kind of stuff be left to the states, but saying that moving around from place to place in my youth things would have been a whole lot easier if everyone was on the same page.
> 
> ...


I have mixed feelings about Common Core. Yes, it is a good thing that the states are on the same page in terms of general topics that all 3rd graders should learn. However, many of the standards are poorly written and are extremely confusing to decipher exactly what is being addressed. They did not get nearly enough input from people who are actually on the front lines working with children and many, many of the standards are developmentally inappropriate at the grade levels they are targeting. We just finished the pilot of the state test and it is a hot mess. Many of the questions are worded in such a confusing way that I don't know how the kids are going to figure out what to do. Also, since the test is all online, it is going to be a huge burden to the schools that just don't have the technology resources.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

The problem is that the kids are only being taught to pass the test just like teaching a dog to follow commands. They are not taught to think, understand, comprehend, or form judgements on the information through critical thought. Just say Bow Wow and pass the test.


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## Differentlady (Jun 3, 2011)

The tests are the key to Common Core. They send all of the year preparing for tests. All children are different and need different types of help but there is no extra time for different. Just be a little robot and do the work. No questions asked. Talk to some of the Teachers and see how frustrated they are with this process.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Honestly, I think it's just become a partisan issue to a large extent. Our high school here seems to have no set curriculum that teachers are mandated to follow. Thus for a high school Psychology class the teacher opted to show 12 full length movies that portrayed "crazy people";. One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Somewhere In Time, Analyze This, As Good As It Gets, etc. Just one example. Supposedly Idaho has curriculum standards but apparently schools don't have to comply. I also moved quite a bit as a kid and something like CC would have been nice then.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

JJ Grandits said:


> The problem is that the kids are only being taught to pass the test just like teaching a dog to follow commands. They are not taught to think, understand, comprehend, or form judgements on the information through critical thought. Just say Bow Wow and pass the test.


First the assumption is that, if they didn't have to learn to the test, they would be free to learn that dubious project- how to think. As if that is the choice.
What really happens, and why there is a push for some minimum standard, is that they are much more likely to learn nothing at all. For years. Which is the easiest course for schools to follow where parent's are not very involved and knowledgeable about their children's education.
At least the children will have be exposed to some idea of standards and goals with a mandated minimum curriculum. The ones who get bored by this because they can master it easily will have lots of opportunity to learn more and the ones who don't at least have been given the chance to actually learn something.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Aren't they being taught to tests now? I thought they had been for quite some time.


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## glenn amolenaar (Mar 3, 2007)

Just read about Common Core, do some real research on your own, it is just another way for the government to get more control of our children. It also appears to be a way to stop Home Schooling. If more parents took an interest in educating their children they would be better educated. YES we home schooled our children plus private school. We also worked full time it can be done if you love you children.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

where I want to said:


> First the assumption is that, if they didn't have to learn to the test, they would be free to learn that dubious project- how to think. As if that is the choice.
> What really happens, and why there is a push for some minimum standard, is that they are much more likely to learn nothing at all. For years. Which is the easiest course for schools to follow where parent's are not very involved and knowledgeable about their children's education.
> At least the children will have be exposed to some idea of standards and goals with a mandated minimum curriculum. The ones who get bored by this because they can master it easily will have lots of opportunity to learn more and the ones who don't at least have been given the chance to actually learn something.


Wow, that's insulting to every teacher out there. Teachers have always had a curriculum to follow (and have been following it) since way before Common Core was ever thought of. Additionally, Common Core is not a curriculum. It is simply a set of standards that need to be mastered. Teachers have also always attempted to teach students to think critically; that is not new to Common Core.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> Wow, that's insulting to every teacher out there. Teachers have always had a curriculum to follow (and have been following it) since way before Common Core was ever thought of. Additionally, Common Core is not a curriculum. It is simply a set of standards that need to be mastered. Teachers have also always attempted to teach students to think critically; that is not new to Common Core.


 Not true. There are good teachers, and there are mediocre teachers and there are flat BAD teachers. I've seen mostly mediocre and those don't attempt to teach critical thinking. I grew up going to some really great suburban schools in great districts. But after seeing what can happen in poorer rural schools...there needs to be some accountability. Beyond the ridiculous standardized tests some states have.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Not true. There are good teachers, and there are mediocre teachers and there are flat BAD teachers. I've seen mostly mediocre and those don't attempt to teach critical thinking. I grew up going to some really great suburban schools in great districts. But after seeing what can happen in poorer rural schools...there needs to be some accountability. Beyond the ridiculous standardized tests some states have.


True, there are teachers at all levels --good, mediocre and bad. There are ALSO parents and students at all of those same levels. However, the only ones being held accountable for results are the teachers. I have no problem with accountability as long as ALL stakeholders have some skin in the game. Here's a real life example (and this example is in no way a rare example). I have a student who has been enrolled in our district for 72 school days (move in from another district). Of those 72 school days, he has been absent for 31 and tardy (by at least an hour each time) for 28. So, obviously, he is not going to do well on his classroom teacher's or my assessments of either skills or critical thinking. I have done everything in my power (parent meetings, sending principal for home visits, attempting to get DHS to garnish the mother's benefits which they have not done) to get this parent to get her kid to school. Nothing has worked. At the end of the year, I will be assessed as being not effective with this student and it will lower my overall evaluation. The way evaluations work here is that teachers are ranked based on their overall evaluation scores. The ones with the lower scores can be laid off or fired. So, there could be very serious ramifications for me based on something I have no control over while there are zero ramifications for this parent.

BTW, I teach in a very poor urban school district and the major issues are not teachers not attempting to teach critical thinking skills. I work with some wonderfully dedicated teachers. The major issues in our district are attendance, poor parental involvement, transiency, poor early childhood nutrition/stimulation, lack of parental support of the importance of education and family drama.

Finally, I would argue that the biggest detriment to critical thinking has been Google (and all of the other search engines) and this generation's permanent attachment to devices of all kinds. Why figure out a problem when you can just Google it? We are rapidly losing our problem solvers and inventors because instead of developing their own ideas they are looking up and quoting the ideas of others.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

We are in a poor rural district. The elementary school for the most part was terrific. Really dedicated teachers who did their best. We pulled my daughter out to home school for 4 years because of the lack of resources for kids who were very good students and more academic. I can understand the reasoning for this. Good students are far more apt to be able to learn ahead on their own and the very limited resources should be going to kids who are having trouble or more average students. 

I don't know how schools can possibly make it when so many students require full time aids and special resources. The expense must be incredible. 

The high school was where I really saw the problem and parents are most definitely a huge part of the problem...especially the parents of the top students. It amazed me that they had so little thought for where Bobby and Suzie would end up because their big thing was keeping the kids grades up, whether or not the kid deserved it. The most popular teachers here are the ones like the Psych teacher. Gives easy A's.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Ends do not justify means.

If the Feds want to dictate to the States to such an extent as we have been seeing the past 30 years, why not just amend the Constitution and make it legit?

I know...some will claim it is legit now.

Whatever.....

What makes common core bad is the same thing that makes O-care bad. Over-reaching Fed mandates that intrude on the liberty of the people.

My $0.02 as always...


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I have a student who has been enrolled in our district for 72 school days (move in from another district). Of those 72 school days, he has been absent for 31 and tardy (by at least an hour each time) for 28. So, obviously, he is not going to do well on his classroom teacher's or my assessments of either skills or critical thinking. I have done everything in my power (parent meetings, sending principal for home visits, attempting to get DHS to garnish the mother's benefits which they have not done) to get this parent to get her kid to school. Nothing has worked. At the end of the year, I will be assessed as being not effective with this student and it will lower my overall evaluation.


I'd think this would create a tremendous incentive for teachers to try to find a way to get kids like this out of their classrooms. 

(Read in "Freakonomics" and elsewhere about how the increased testing and attempts to hold teachers accountable apparently are motivating some teachers to cheat -- for instance, by changing students' answers on standardized tests, or filling in answers the kids left blank. I was not surprised -- there's a lot of money at stake here.)


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

SLFarmMI said:


> True, there are teachers at all levels --good, mediocre and bad. There are ALSO parents and students at all of those same levels. However, the only ones being held accountable for results are the teachers. I have no problem with accountability as long as ALL stakeholders have some skin in the game. Here's a real life example (and this example is in no way a rare example). I have a student who has been enrolled in our district for 72 school days (move in from another district). Of those 72 school days, he has been absent for 31 and tardy (by at least an hour each time) for 28. So, obviously, he is not going to do well on his classroom teacher's or my assessments of either skills or critical thinking. I have done everything in my power (parent meetings, sending principal for home visits, attempting to get DHS to garnish the mother's benefits which they have not done) to get this parent to get her kid to school. Nothing has worked. At the end of the year, I will be assessed as being not effective with this student and it will lower my overall evaluation. The way evaluations work here is that teachers are ranked based on their overall evaluation scores. The ones with the lower scores can be laid off or fired. So, there could be very serious ramifications for me based on something I have no control over while there are zero ramifications for this parent.


But every teacher should have about the same chance of getting those difficult cases. And since you can not be reasonably expected to be perfect, your personal appraisal is relative. Yes, you might get a better appraisal if you managed to make a change in the parent's behavior and it would be deserved. But no reasonable system can demand the impossible and no employee should be afraid of the few they can't get. Only if they are consistently missing where others succeed should the employee be concerned.
The point of bringing stats into any appraisal is to have the ability to focus employee attention to those issues. It does raise fear in employee but that is the very thing that gets them to see the importance of it. If every other teacher succeeds getting a certain achievement from their students, and I didn't, it would make me get input from the successful, check out the reasons for my lack of success and change if I can. If I have to explain a few failures to my boss, I will have the reasons and my actions in hand because I would have examined them.
What it should not do, unless an employee is truly bad at their job, is make them them paralyzed with fear. If a boss abuses them, then that is wrong. But if the employee so desires non stop praise that they can't live with a few failures, then they are never going to do what is needed anyway.
And, if an employee demands the perfect situation or they reject the stats, then that is at the least not useful. In fact, since there is rarely perfection, it is an excuse for constant and pervasive failure. Thus the teacher, who is after all the professional getting paid, can not reasonably expect that every parent is going to do what the teacher wants. You get your share of plums and your share of lemons.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> I'd think this would create a tremendous incentive for teachers to try to find a way to get kids like this out of their classrooms.
> 
> (Read in "Freakonomics" and elsewhere about how the increased testing and attempts to hold teachers accountable apparently are motivating some teachers to cheat -- for instance, by changing students' answers on standardized tests, or filling in answers the kids left blank. I was not surprised -- there's a lot of money at stake here.)


Only in those people who really doubt their own abilities and either can't see the importance or desirability of achieving the goal. Every system relies on the values of its members anyway and cheating just exposes the lack of the values that already exist. It does not create them unless there is bad management in the first place. 
Stats are a tool, not the objective itself.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

JJ Grandits said:


> The problem is that the kids are only being taught to pass the test just like teaching a dog to follow commands. They are not taught to think, understand, comprehend, or form judgements on the information through critical thought. Just say Bow Wow and pass the test.



But hasn't this been going on with schools for a long time already. Even in Collage it was a lot like that.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

glenn amolenaar said:


> Just read about Common Core, do some real research on your own, it is just another way for the government to get more control of our children. It also appears to be a way to stop Home Schooling. If more parents took an interest in educating their children they would be better educated. YES we home schooled our children plus private school. We also worked full time it can be done if you love you children.



How is a way for the government to get more control? From my understanding it is just a list of the min things a kid needs to learn. We have done home schooling for a bit. 

Academically they were doing better but for our kids they really needed to learn to work in groups better. Yes, I know this can be done with home school but we were never home and right now I need to be home working on the farm.

Not trying to argue just trying to understand this stuff better.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Follow the money. Teacher unions do not want to be held accountable for the "product" that their members turn out. Having seen the product of the Dade and Broward County schools in Florida, I have little doubt that the current teachers view the task of teaching to a minimum standard impossible. Many of them couldn't even begin to pass as adults.

Knowledge may not be power, but it is a core part of power and the development of rational and logical thinking. That means that every two bit preacher who thinks HIS interpretation of an interpreted and revised Bible is the complete and utter truth of G*d is going to rally ranks and complain.

Math, basic physics, basic chemistry, and critical reading and writing skills ARE core and vital to the success of adults. Indoctrination is going to happen, whether it is on a fed level, state level, county level, municipality level, or home school level. The idea that indoctrination will be "stopped" by going backwards is ludicrous. It will simply be shifted, and the loss in the other areas I mentioned glossed over.

I have always been of the opinion the W's "No Child Left Behind" was the greatest thing he did as President, and I am not otherwise much of a fan of him.

Those who minimize the educational opportunities of children and stunt their growth for life are the real child molesters.


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## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

What is "common core"??


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

secuono said:


> What is "common core"??




http://www.corestandards.org/read-the-standards/

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20140526/GJLIFESTYLES/140519407/-1/FOSLIFESTYLES

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Core_State_Standards_Initiative

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/373840/ten-dumbest-common-core-problems-alec-torres

I went out and found those for you to give some idea of what it is.

I picked from the top Google searches. But those may give you an idea of what it is.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Ziptie said:


> But hasn't this been going on with schools for a long time already. Even in Collage it was a lot like that.


At least 49 years.

They didn't "teach the test", word for word, but they only covered and the students were supposed to take and study notes, on what was going to be on the test.

Maybe to accomplish that built the critical thinking.

Maybe others had _Mr. Chips_, for teachers, with lively discussion and debate. Mine mostly wanted the kids to move on to the next grade, because that was their job. They didn't pencil whip grades (I don't think), but the really didn't have the time and inclination, to ponder what the students thought about every subject.

Kids graduated college and/or went to good jobs and decent lives - most of them.


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## Cookie2 (Feb 21, 2014)

"Additionally, Common Core is not a curriculum. It is simply a set of standards that need to be mastered."

This is incorrect. While the proponents of Common Core will tell you it isn't a curriculum, implementation is being instituted so quickly (a requirement of the "Race to the Top" money), the only choice schools have is to buy the Common Core curriculum being produced by the big publishing houses.

Can children go beyond Common Core standards? Not in the classroom. Advancement beyond the standards has to be done after school and/or at home. Teachers and school districts aren't allowed to modify the standards at all - they can't detract from them and they can't add to them.

The standards are tougher and not developmentally appropriate in the younger grades and are weaker in the older grades. Case in point, my DD is currently operating at the 12th grade level in math. She has waited years to get into 7th grade (this fall) so she can take formal algebra which will clear the way for her to take trig and calculus in high school. But Common Core was instituted this year in our state so now algebra isn't offered until 8th grade and she isn't allowed to accelerate. Now when she goes to high school she has to take trig and calculus at the local community college because the high school isn't even offering those classes anymore. Every math and science teacher that has looked at the upper level standards says that these "STEM" subjects are weaker in high school and the kids won't be college ready because of Common Core.

The standards erase cursive from the curriculum. How will future scholars read original texts such as our Constitution without a basic understanding of cursive? Besides, cursive is an important skill for some students with learning disabilities such as dyslexia.

The standards reduce emphasis on literary classics and fictional works and increase emphasis on non-fiction. Whole brain development could be greatly affected and children will be leaving school with a much narrower scope of literary experience.

As to things being different when we move, we are forgetting that this is one of the reasons parents DO move. As parents we specifically select school districts for our children based on what is best for them. For instance, I might specifically opt to move to Idaho because they have strong charter school and magnet school networks, have liberal home schooling laws, and a selection of school districts with good graduation rates and college acceptance rates. Or I might move to one of the "A" rated school districts within Mississippi because I like that the state recognizes dyslexia as a specific learning disability and because my child will have an chance at attending a high school specifically for math and science gifted students. I might decide to send my child to a private Montessori school where my child will be required to meet all the state requirements at graduation but will be allowed to learn them organically in their own time and in their own way. Common Core removes those differences and takes away my choices as a parent - even if I home school - because the new college entrance tests will be aligned with the Common Core methods.

Common Core requires data collection on children and their families that many consider to be invasive. Supposedly such data such as the family's religion, whether or not there are firearms in the house, and whether or not the parents vote is important in determining future needs of the child.

What do I think of annual testing at all? I think "No Child Left Behind" sucks! Did you know that Finland, which has some of the best educational standards in the world, doesn't do annual testing? Do you know how much time is wasted with annual testing. When we moved to MS, I was shocked that my child would regularly get a week off from school - every 9 weeks. Since she gets straight A's, she is excused from the 9-weeks tests. She doesn't have to come to school during those weeks. The 9-weeks tests are "progress reports" so the teachers can see how the kids will do on the end of the year test. My DD does have to take the end of the year test which occurs the week before the last week of school. My DD doesn't have to attend the last week of school again because she gets straight A's. You'd think the school would take that entire month's worth of attendance that my DD doesn't attend and use that to offer her enrichment courses, but no.

There are red flags with Common Core all over the place:
* While proponents of Common Core will tell you that it is a state or local lead, grass roots set of standards, in reality Common Core acceptance was tied to federal "Race to the Top" financial incentives. Struggling states either had to turn down millions in education funding or accept Common Core.

* The annual test is NOT optional. In my state, even if I withdraw my child from school while the annual tests are being conducted, the tests will be given to her as soon as she returns.

* The test results aren't reported to the school as individual child results. The Common Core tests aren't used for individual grade advancement. Even if the child fails the Common Core annual test, they can advance to the next grade if they got good grades in their classes. There is no feedback mechanism in the tests. For instance, if my child scored low in multiplication, for instance, there is no way for me, my child or the teacher to know that and thus no way to address the problem in future learning.

* Only two educators were included in the Common Core development committee and both of them refused to sign off on the standards. Their names were then removed from the committee list.

* States and school districts have always had standards and curriculum. Many states had stronger standards than before "No Child Left Behind". Why lower the standards? Because it is cheaper!

* The US Constitution specifically did NOT the establishment of a national public school system. It established a postal system but not a school system so you have to wonder about that. It wasn't simply something they forgot to add. The framers of this country purposely left the establishment of public schools to the states and people to decide.

* Bill Gates has spent about $75 million dollars on Common Core. When discussing Common Core, Bill Gates is quoted as saying, "For the first time, there will be a large uniform base of customers eager to buy products that can help every kid learn and every teacher get better." Who do you think is planning on selling school districts all those required computers?

* None of the standards have been tested.

* The need for Common Core curriculum to align to the untested standards has opened a flood gate of textbook writing with a decidedly Progressive point-of-view. Anti-Common Core websites, blogs and discussion forums are filled with examples of exceptionally questionable content being presented to our children. For instance, reading passages that completely re-write the Bill of Rights or broaden the scope of the duties of the executive branch. Keep in mind, there are supposed to be Common Core standards only for math and language arts. However, Common Core has ventured into history, social studies and psychology through required reading passages.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

It's a bit ironic, that we lament, that today's kids are so dumb, yet resist every effort to make them smarter.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

From the test questions I read, teaching to the common cord standard is not going to make anyone smarter. And it doesn't really have much weight, until you can rid of the bad teachers, kids will not really learn more. Tenure for teachers is one of many problems in the schools, but it would be one of the easier ones to fix, if the teachers union wasn't in charge.


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## Cookie2 (Feb 21, 2014)

Am I the only one finds it ironic that the state of this country's education system has declined significantly since the institution of the federal Department of Education in 1979 under President Jimmy Carter?

How rapidly has federal and state funding of public school increased since then? How dramatically has education quality decreased?

How much have college tuition sky-rocketed since the 1965, and again in 1990, and again in 1993?

All I see if a furthering of a Progressive agenda in our school system. If this country is ever going to get back on its feet, we have to go back to the days of a classical education. http://education-curriculum-reform-...nd-science-learning-principal-benjamin-payne/


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

And if you read some of the history text written in common core - you'd be amazed how it's changed from the history you learned. 

I think every work Cookie2 wrote needs to be heard and understood by every parent!!

She gets the Post of the Day award!


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

When I finally pulled my youngest out, we used a very classical homeschooling curriculum (The Calvert School) and I can't say enough good things about it. It taught her to think and to reason and when she ultimately decided to attend the public high school, she made straight A's easily. 
Which really isn't saying much because it isn't hard to make straight A's at a school which doesn't weight classes, shows movies instead of teaching a curriculum and usually has 5-6 valedictorians. 
But she did end up at one of the top 50 colleges in the country and another girl I know who also used Calvert is in one of the top ten. Really, really a great curriculum.


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## tnfamily (Mar 23, 2014)

Cookie2 has stated the issues with Common Core best. If everyone would research it like Cookie2 and I have, I believe you'd be against Common Core also. This program is dumbing down the students. In the next county over they are finger printing the elementary students for library cards and lunch cards. Just one more way for the gov't to keep track of people. Some highly educated parents are having trouble understanding 2nd grade math. Kids are being told not to ask their parents for help because the parents won't know how. Do we really need our kids being told not to seek help from us? First graders are being taught emotional words in their English class. From a first grade work book: My Mom _____ me to clean my room. Choose the correct answer: ASKS or NAGS
What do you think is the right answer??? NAGS!!!! I could go on and on but as you read about CC please Google Parents against Common Core.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Cookie2 said:


> "Additionally, Common Core is not a curriculum. It is simply a set of standards that need to be mastered."
> 
> *This is incorrect. While the proponents of Common Core will tell you it isn't a curriculum, implementation is being instituted so quickly (a requirement of the "Race to the Top" money), the only choice schools have is to buy the Common Core curriculum being produced by the big publishing houses.*
> 
> ...


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Cookie2 said:


> Am I the only one finds it ironic that the state of this country's education system has declined significantly since the institution of the federal Department of Education in 1979 under President Jimmy Carter?
> 
> How rapidly has federal and state funding of public school increased since then? How dramatically has education quality decreased?
> 
> ...


To be fair, a lot of things in America, have declined significantly, since 1979, that have nothing to do with Jimmy. 

Blame the education system, but what else has changed? Many more immigrants, many more poor, more different religions, more bullies, more drugs, the invention of gays, more guns, school lunch issues, $3.50/gal bus fuel, more special needs kids.

Blame progressives for high college costs, but how many Conservatives, cash in in the multimillion dollar, TV college sports deals, or make money peddling endless high dollar student loans?


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## my3boys (Jan 18, 2011)

glenn amolenaar said:


> Just read about Common Core, do some real research on your own, it is just another way for the government to get more control of our children. It also appears to be a way to stop Home Schooling. If more parents took an interest in educating their children they would be better educated. YES we home schooled our children plus private school. We also worked full time it can be done if you love you children.


Yep. Same here.


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## my3boys (Jan 18, 2011)

Cookie2 said:


> Am I the only one finds it ironic that the state of this country's education system has declined significantly since the institution of the federal Department of Education in 1979 under President Jimmy Carter?
> 
> How rapidly has federal and state funding of public school increased since then? How dramatically has education quality decreased?
> 
> ...


I agree with a need to return to the classical model of education. Our youngest went to a classical school from 5th through 12th and I wish those schools had been around when our two oldest were in school. 

The classical model follows the child's natural development (grammer, logic and rhetoric stages) and teaches thinking and reasoning skills. It was the way everyone in this country was educated until the progressives took over the education system (think "whole language" replacing phonics). Since their methods have never really worked they are forced to come up with new and inventive experiments in the classroom to cover their failures instead of admitting they were wrong and returning to the tried and true classical education methods and goals.

Progressives don't like classical education because it educates the student as to the whole spectrum of beliefs and ideas throughout history from ancient to medieval to modern as well as the outcome/consequences. History is the base of the curriculum. It is often described as a "complete" education. Progressive only want to expose children to their narrow beliefs and views, and then tell them that's the only way to go, an idea rampant in common core. Censorship is the friend of the tyrannical. Complete and open information is it's enemy. That is why communist countries keep their people from learning about what is going on in the outside world as much as they can. Keep them ignorant and tell them they have it good. The people have this gnawing sensation that they don't have it so great but don't know why. Hence the need to censor or the leaders will have a revolution on their hands. 

Places like Veritas Press and others explain more fully the philosophy behind classical education. Veritas supplies schools and also has excellent homeschool programs, including online classes.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Common Core is really nothing more than the latest incarnation of No Child Left Behind. 



I'm curious--how many of you were also up in arms about NCLB?


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> Progressives don't like classical education because it educates the student as to the whole spectrum of beliefs and ideas throughout history from ancient to medieval to modern as well as the outcome/consequences.


What an utterly bizarre statement...

Most of the classical educators I've known ARE progressives. lol


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

ErinP said:


> Common Core is really nothing more than the latest incarnation of No Child Left Behind.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious--how many of you were also up in arms about NCLB?



NCLB was also a disaster but I don't think it included data collection and a real permanent record that follows a kid into adulthood. Now I didn't have kids in school when it was introduced so I could be wrong.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

You are. 
The biggest disaster _OF_ NCLB was directly linked to the data collection.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

i just found out that six elementary teachers in our district are retiring because they do not want to deal with Common Core. When my wife told me their names I was shocked. These are really good teachers who are well respected. By losing them our school has taken a step backwards. 
I agree. The federal government has no business in this matter. This is not education, its indoctrination. The decisions about educating our children should be made locally.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Cookie2 said:


> Am I the only one finds it ironic that the state of this country's education system has declined significantly since the institution of the federal Department of Education in 1979 under President Jimmy Carter?
> 
> How rapidly has federal and state funding of public school increased since then? How dramatically has education quality decreased?
> 
> ...


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Wolf mom said:


> And if you read some of the history text written in common core - you'd be amazed how it's changed from the history you learned.
> 
> I think every work Cookie2 wrote needs to be heard and understood by every parent!!
> 
> She gets the Post of the Day award!


You beat me to it!
This is what I've read...changing history...slightly...gradually...ya know, instilling in the youngest how the Constitution is notsogood.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Cookie2 said:
> 
> 
> > "Additionally, Common Core is not a curriculum. It is simply a set of standards that need to be mastered."
> ...


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

ErinP said:


> You are.
> The biggest disaster _OF_ NCLB was directly linked to the data collection.



Then perhaps CC is just so awful because of all the racist folks who hate BO because he is black. :shrug:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ8Nr3_2724[/ame]
You know, because Bush got a pass on *everything* he did. :thumb:


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## my3boys (Jan 18, 2011)

ErinP said:


> What an utterly bizarre statement...
> 
> Most of the classical educators I've known ARE progressives. lol


There are those who use more secular curriculums such as Calvert, but most of the classical schools in this country are Christian/Catholic and some Temple schools as well. Not all, but most. The public education system, which is most definitely run by progressives will not likely turn to classical because of the reasons I stated.

If most of the classical educators you know are progressives that only means that you run in a progressive crowd. The classical educators I know would not think my statement to be, as you rudely stated, "utterly bizarre", and I know educators/administrators from one of the best schools in the country.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Teachers have also always attempted to teach students to think critically; that is not new to Common Core.


I take exception to this.... When I was in school I know for a fact that critical thinking that didnt happen to go along with what the teacher erroneously beleived got a kid sent to the principles office for a proper spanking. Not just once.... but every time the student proved the teacher wrong. Ask how I know this!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

PrettyPaisley said:


> Then perhaps CC is just so awful because of all the racist folks who hate BO because he is black. :shrug:


I dont hate BO because he's black.... I hate him because he's trying to destroy our country..... just like he promised to do all during both of his campaigns.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I dont hate BO because he's black.... I hate him because he's trying to destroy our country..... just like he promised to do all during both of his campaigns.


I know that. I was being snarky.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

There are two goals running in public education- one is to create a student who can have a successful life. The other is to educate a student to be part of an ideal world. And it is that last that is creating a pretty self-centered, born-victim individual with both an exaggerated self importance and a belief in the unrealistic.

Take bullying- there have always been bullies. The goal was to instill in the person who was bullied a belief in their own ability to deal with the bully and at the same time to limit what a bully would think he could get away with. The point was that everyone is going to be a target of someone's aggression and they had to learn to cope with it. And simply coping was the mark of self respect.
Now, bullies are given a much looser rein- being convinced along with the general population that their juvenile impulses are to be respected simply for being born- while the bullied are taught to rely on the authorities, who are certain to fail them sooner or later, and will then lead them to consider themselves both helpless and a victim.

Some all pervasive idea of a perfect fantasy world has lead to the general inability to acknowledge and therefore teaching how to cope with reality.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

âWe, unaccustomed to courage
exiles from delight
live coiled in shells of loneliness
until love leaves its high holy temple
and comes into our sight
to liberate us into life.

Love arrives
and in its train come ecstasies
old memories of pleasure
ancient histories of pain.
Yet if we are bold,
love strikes away the chains of fear
from our souls.

We are weaned from our timidity
In the flush of love's light
we dare be brave
And suddenly we see
that love costs all we are
and will ever be.
Yet it is only love
which sets us free.â 
&#8213; Maya Angelou 

Among all of the concerns I have with Common Core, this is what concerns me most of all about it. In the push to get more informational text into the kid's hands (50% minimum in the lower grades, 70% minimum in the upper grades), we risk losing out on wonderful literature such as the above. Yes we need to strike a balance between informational and narrative text, but if you're only allowed 30%, how do you choose between Dickens, Twain, Hawthorne, Angelou, etc.? What wonderful pieces of literature do we risk not exposing our students to?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> âWe, unaccustomed to courage
> exiles from delight
> live coiled in shells of loneliness
> until love leaves its high holy temple
> ...


right up front, the above gibberish need not be forced upon any poor innocent child. I am pretty sure Twain has been censored out of many school libraries... something about his use of a certain word which was perfectly common in Twains day, but todays world has declared it off limits. Seems a shame to me.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> right up front, the above gibberish need not be forced upon any poor innocent child. I am pretty sure Twain has been censored out of many school libraries... something about his use of a certain word which was perfectly common in Twains day, but todays world has declared it off limits. Seems a shame to me.


Seriously, you have a problem with Maya Angelou? She was a great author and students should definitely be exposed to her work. Hopefully you were kidding. BTW, Twain's work is still alive and well in schools -- some schools may have sanitized that particular word but his work is still taught.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

plowjockey said:


> Blame progressives for high college costs, but how many Conservatives, cash in in the multimillion dollar, TV college sports deals, or make money peddling endless high dollar student loans?


Two wrongs do not make a right.


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## Cookie2 (Feb 21, 2014)

http://dailycaller.com/2013/11/22/epic-fail-parents-reveal-insane-common-core-worksheets/


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Seriously, you have a problem with Maya Angelou? She was a great author and students should definitely be exposed to her work. Hopefully you were kidding. BTW, Twain's work is still alive and well in schools -- some schools may have sanitized that particular word but his work is still taught.


If the gibberish you brought forward is a fair representation of Maya's "work"..... then YES I have a problem with our nations children wasting time on it that could better be used learning something productive and useful. 


Some of Twains works have been banned outright in lots of schools literally since the time he wrote them. 
http://www.google.com/search?client...+banned+in+school+libraries&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Other bannings of some of his works have been a bit more recent. Political correctness is a grand and wonderful thing dont ya think?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> If the gibberish you brought forward is a fair representation of Maya's "work"..... then YES I have a problem with our nations children wasting time on it that could better be used learning something productive and useful.
> 
> 
> Some of Twains works have been banned outright in lots of schools literally since the time he wrote them.
> ...


Well, if a beautiful poem about the power of love strikes you as gibberish, then I truly feel sorry for you. You probably believe that teaching art and music are equally wastes of time. We'll have to agree to disagree about that. Yes, I know that many school districts have banned Twain's works (among other authors) and they are wrong in their decision to do so. (Although, as a side note, no one censored Twain's work more so than his wife and his editor.)


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

ErinP said:


> Common Core is really nothing more than the latest incarnation of No Child Left Behind.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious--how many of you were also up in arms about NCLB?


I was.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

That's comforting. 
Because in my experience most people who are fired up about CC didn't bat an eye at NCLB.


And, much like NCLB, the real problem with CC isn't so much content as the need for still MORE testing. The standards themselves are fine, for the most part. Most states have had something similar for decades (and I realize most people don't seem to know this). And no, CC is _not_ a curriculum (why do people have so very much trouble understanding this??)
But even more testing, to ensure the meeting of those standards is _my_ real complaint. 

Nebraska is one of the few states that has yet to adopt CC (we were also the very last state to implement NCLB, as an aside), but even with the _current_ level of testing, I figure we waste a good 3 weeks of school in the elementary/middle school years...


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## 36376 (Jan 24, 2009)

where I want to said:


> There are two goals running in public education- one is to create a student who can have a successful life. The other is to educate a student to be part of an ideal world. And it is that last that is creating a pretty self-centered, born-victim individual with both an exaggerated self importance and a belief in the unrealistic.
> 
> Take bullying- there have always been bullies. The goal was to instill in the person who was bullied a belief in their own ability to deal with the bully and at the same time to limit what a bully would think he could get away with. The point was that everyone is going to be a target of someone's aggression and they had to learn to cope with it. And simply coping was the mark of self respect.
> Now, bullies are given a much looser rein- being convinced along with the general population that their juvenile impulses are to be respected simply for being born- while the bullied are taught to rely on the authorities, who are certain to fail them sooner or later, and will then lead them to consider themselves both helpless and a victim.
> ...


Exactly. And the fact that liars are rewarded and those who are bullied and stand up for themselves, even fighting back if they have to, are punished. I have first hand experience with this in my boys schools years ago. I thank God often that I do not have young children now and that both of my boys are grown and out of school.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

SLFarmMI said:


> Well, if a beautiful poem about the power of love strikes you as gibberish, then I truly feel sorry for you. You probably believe that teaching art and music are equally wastes of time. We'll have to agree to disagree about that. Yes, I know that many school districts have banned Twain's works (among other authors) and they are wrong in their decision to do so. (Although, as a side note, no one censored Twain's work more so than his wife and his editor.)


It's is not a requirement to rhapsodize in unison. Over anything.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

LOL ... a tribute to Maya Angelou came on public radio the other day. Numb overheard it ... it included a recording of Angelou reading one of her poems, "Phenomenal Woman," in which she ticks off her assets,


> It's in the click of my heels,
> The bend of my hair,
> the palm of my hand ... (etc.)


He began improvising lines ... "The film on my teeth! The hair on my back!" and concluded he could write equally well if he were high on cough syrup.

I just about hurt myself laughing ... ound:


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Do folks forget that NCLB is a product of Ted Kennedy?


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## badlander (Jun 7, 2009)

Interesting thread. 

Being childless, what we have learned about CC has come from our friends with children and frankly they are not happy about it and from what I have read there is nothing about it that would make me excited about having a child of ours exposed to it should one exist.

Teaching a child that 2+2=5 IF you show logically how you reached that conclusion is not an education IMHO and that is one of the examples I have seen concerning CC curriculum. IF we had a child and IF that child was in school, he or she would be attending a private church based school or be home schooled. Rewriting history and teaching it to a child is not a proper education. Teaching a child that the Constitution of this Great Country is outdated is not a proper education, neither is exposing children to only one school of thought, namely liberal progressivism. 

We have watched some really outstanding teachers that we know really get shafted by the changes that are happening within our education system. It is not good.

The future of our society rests on the heads of our precious children and I for one do not want the federal government to be in charge of them...oops, too late, it's already happened.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> You probably believe that teaching art and music are equally wastes of time.


When our children arent learning the simple basics they need to know in order to earn a living..... yes, Non essentials such as art and music and sports need to take a backseat so our schools can devote the time and resources needed to provide them with the basics.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> When our children arent learning the simple basics they need to know in order to earn a living..... yes, Non essentials such as art and music and sports need to take a backseat so our schools can devote the time and resources needed to provide them with the basics.


Our children are learning the simple basics they need to earn a living. Unfortunately, in today's job market and in the market of the jobs that haven't even been thought of yet, the basics aren't enough. Employers want workers who can think creatively and solve problems. BTW, studies have shown that children who learn music show positive growth in their math skills above that of those children who do not learn music. 

From reading this thread, I can see that there are a lot of folks who don't really understand what Common Core is and is not. I would suggest that you go to your individual state's department of education website and read the actual standards. It's not light reading but then you'll know what they actually say and what they are proposing children learn and be able to do. One of the states (maybe North Carolina but I'm not sure right now because it's on my desk at work) has done a wonderful job of "unpacking" the standards, which means putting them into simpler verbiage so you don't have to plow through all that "committee speak".


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## Cookie2 (Feb 21, 2014)

"From reading this thread, I can see that there are a lot of folks who don't really understand what Common Core is and is not. I would suggest that you go to your individual state's department of education website and read the actual standards."

The attitude implied by this kind of response is "the only reason you object is because you're too dumb to understand". Well, I have read the "standards" and I still object to them for all the reasons I gave above. I DO understand what Common Core is all about. What I fear is that people who are pro-Common Core also understand and that is exactly what they want to see America become.

I also get my dander up when I read replies from people who try to say "Well, Prez Bush did the same thing and you didn't object then." Yes, we DID object then. We still do.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Our children are learning the simple basics they need to earn a living. Unfortunately, in today's job market and in the market of the jobs that haven't even been thought of yet, the basics aren't enough.


Ok, this right here pretty much explains my problem with the kind of gibberish poetry being taught..... IT MAKES NO SENSE!..... either they are getting the basics they need to earn a living... or they are not... you cant have it both ways! Studies show that far too many of our students are unqualified to get a job and earn a decent living upon graduation.... obviously they are not getting the basics required in todays world. I know of precious few jobs where being able to recite poetry is a qualifier. Being competent in math and science will get you much further in "most" applications than a working knowledge of "beautiful love songs... or poems".


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Cookie2 said:


> The attitude implied by this kind of response is "the only reason you object is because you're too dumb to understand". Well, I have read the "standards" and I still object to them for all the reasons I gave above. I DO understand what Common Core is all about.


Apparently not. 

You're still tolling that same bell of "my kid can't take Algebra in 7th grade because of CC." Even though it's been explained to you, several times now, that that doesn't have anything to do with Common Core. :shrug:


YH's post directly above; maybe his complaints are valid, maybe they aren't, but again, they have nothing at all to do with CC.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Tricky Grama said:


> Do folks forget that NCLB is a product of Ted Kennedy?


Yep, he was one of the authors. 
It was _proposed_ by Bush, and then written by representatives John Boehner (R), George Miller (D), and senators Ted Kennedy (D) and Judd Gregg (R).

What's your point?


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## Cookie2 (Feb 21, 2014)

ErinP said:


> You're still tolling that same bell of "my kid can't take Algebra in 7th grade because of CC." Even though it's been explained to you, several times now, that that doesn't have anything to do with Common Core.


And yet, you address NONE of my other multitude of concerns and objections to Common Core. Seems you're the one who needs to do some reading.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

I just picked one, glaringly obvious example... 
Particularly noteworthy for me, as I know for a fact people have already explained that one to you, several months ago, on the Classroom board.


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## Differentlady (Jun 3, 2011)

*Oklahoma got rid of it and more states will follow.*


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## Cookie2 (Feb 21, 2014)

And again I ignore ErinP for having nothing worthwhile to add. :icecream:


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Cookie2 said:


> "From reading this thread, I can see that there are a lot of folks who don't really understand what Common Core is and is not. I would suggest that you go to your individual state's department of education website and read the actual standards."
> 
> The attitude implied by this kind of response is "the only reason you object is because you're too dumb to understand". Well, I have read the "standards" and I still object to them for all the reasons I gave above. I DO understand what Common Core is all about. What I fear is that people who are pro-Common Core also understand and that is exactly what they want to see America become.
> 
> ...


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

Cookie2 said:


> "From reading this thread, I can see that there are a lot of folks who don't really understand what Common Core is and is not. I would suggest that you go to your individual state's department of education website and read the actual standards."
> 
> The attitude implied by this kind of response is "the only reason you object is because you're too dumb to understand". Well, I have read the "standards" and I still object to them for all the reasons I gave above. I DO understand what Common Core is all about. What I fear is that people who are pro-Common Core also understand and that is exactly what they want to see America become.
> 
> I also get my dander up when I read replies from people who try to say "Well, Prez Bush did the same thing and you didn't object then." Yes, we DID object then. We still do.



Huffington Post published an article along these lines a couple of weeks ago. Same liberal drivel; there is no substance to their argument so they take cheap shots along the lines of, "if you oppose CC it's simply because you're too stupid to understand your child's 2nd grade math homework ". It falls lockstep with "you get your vaccine information from Jenny McCarthy" and "there have been no studies proving RoundUp unsafe you silly citidiot". When in doubt just throw insults.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, this right here pretty much explains my problem with the kind of gibberish poetry being taught..... IT MAKES NO SENSE!..... either they are getting the basics they need to earn a living... or they are not... you cant have it both ways! Studies show that far too many of our students are unqualified to get a job and earn a decent living upon graduation.... obviously they are not getting the basics required in todays world. I know of precious few jobs where being able to recite poetry is a qualifier. Being competent in math and science will get you much further in "most" applications than a working knowledge of "beautiful love songs... or poems".


Those who are so blind as NOT to watch O'Reilly need to find out when he has Watters on when he interviews folks on the street. Or college kids at spring break. Never saw such a 'stupidier' group!
Not to know who G. Washington was?!?! Not know the Civil War? Or Revolutionary? Or who bombed us at Pearl Harbor!! 
Some were from U of MD.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

ErinP said:


> Yep, he was one of the authors.
> It was _proposed_ by Bush, and then written by representatives John Boehner (R), George Miller (D), and senators Ted Kennedy (D) and Judd Gregg (R).
> 
> What's your point?


Bipartisan. Yet Bush is blamed for it all.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

AZ just pulled out.
http://joemiller.us/2014/06/arizona...il&utm_term=0_065b6c381c-7638e6ee84-230980529


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

I no longer have children in school, but I do have a lot of friends who are educators and they are very upset about Common Core. If I had a child who was still in school, I would probably pull her out and homeschool.

As most of you know, I am not a right-winger. I am an educated woman who believes in the value of a quality education. Common Core as it is being presented in NY does not create better educated citizens.

Children do not need to be indoctrinated with brand names on a test or in homework and yet there is what would be described as product placement within the curriculum that the kids are using.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2014/04/brand_names_in_ny_common_core_tests_vex_parents.html

First, we should be addressing the fact that Johnny can't write.This is not just my opinion. Businesses are saying that those with newly-minted college degrees are not capable of communicating with their clients and they are forced to provide remedial writing workshops. 

There was a time when it was thought that this was an urban phenomenon. Perhaps, it once was. I see essays, emails and other writings from people who purport to be educated and yet there will be multiple errors in every paragraph. I had an intern assigned to my office whose final report was written in gibberish, though I know that she had a firm grasp on the subject matter. The problem is that no one had ever told her that she was wrong. Public school teachers often assign an essay on a history topic and ignore punctuation, spelling and grammar because they want to encourage the child's thoughts on the topic and not penalize for those "English-class" missteps. This should never happen. Students should be taught to maintain the same level of quality in all of their subjects. In an age when the majority of papers are typed on a computer, there really is no excuse for major errors of that kind!

As a nation, we are falling behind in math and science.This is primarily because we make these topics boring and then offer watered-down versions of the classes to the kids that we've labeled as learning disabled. Most are not disabled, but simply learn differently. Other countries are not using anything similar to Common Core and their children are able to learn these subjects. Why not duplicate their programs to improve student performance? There is no need for nonsensical word problems about a talking and racing pineapple.(This comment is based upon a real test question!) Instead, throw in a word problem that educates about something factual and children will retain it.

Science is exciting and exists in everything around us. Science should only be about classrooms, textbooks and taking notes when there are no other options...and there should always be options! A good teacher should be free to introduce students to the science that exists in a garden, in the woods and in everything that they see. Let them take scrapings from their sneakers and look at it under a microscope or examine a wad of chewing gum to see what crawling on it. This is how you raise a future scientist.

Parents do and must play a role in all of this and can often be the biggest impediment to learning.Twenty or thirty years ago, students were not over-scheduled and their playtime was not regimented.The kids of today are involved in far too many extra-curricular activities. Allow them to pick 2. We see so many children involved in music, 3 sports, dance lessons, school play and church. When their time is divided, there is never much opportunity for them to get good at anything and there is rarely time to study. They are in school to get an education and yet parents often divert them from their purpose.

Lastly, parents need to step up. Children need boundaries and appropriate punishment when they misstep. You are not supposed to be your child's best friend. The kid who makes witty comments at home is a smart-aleck in school and disrupts the other students. The child who is bubbly and full of life at home is a social butterfly and a distraction in class. As a parent, if you are abusive or involved in negative activities like drugs, then you are not an effective parent and need to get some help.

I'm believe in holding teachers accountable for the academic progress of their students. Common Core is not the tool to accomplish this and it isn't even a step in the right direction.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Well, it seems like Common Core suffers from the same thing that has caused such a deterioration in basic education for for the last 50 years. Applying a theory without testing because it seems like a clever idea. 
The basic problem seems to come back to the intent to make learning easy so everyone can have it even if they choose not to work at it. I'll bet the insertion of brand names that Martian made was someone's clever idea on how to get 'today's commercial influenced youth' to pay attention by making it 'relevant to their world.' And blithely going ahead without listening to any other thoughts on it.
The hard truth is that some minimal level of effort, and much of it not fun at all, must be put in to learning useful things. It should not rely on parents' heavily as it is not something parents are always going to do. Too many are not going to have the time or inclination to do the disciplining of large amounts of homework. 
But that does not mean that they should expect everyone else to discipline their kids into compliance either. If parents do not to the grunt work of creating respectful children, then the schools have no chance of educating that child. But that does not mean that the parent shoukd be expected to be an after hours school teacher either..

Maybe that is the basic issue to be addressed. Parents should be expected to present a child with the proper training to be able to learn while the school should be expected to do the unpleasant parts of education themselves. Teachers should not be expected to teach good manners but parents shoukd not be expected to teach math.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/lessons-to-be-learned-from-a-one-room-schoolhouse/3/

Thought this was interesting but very incomplete. Are one room schools better than larger schools as implied? If so, whart is useful to learn in that?


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## Cookie2 (Feb 21, 2014)

I will admit that one observation I've made on the anti-Common Core forums is parents will post an example of what Common Core is all about when in fact what they're objecting to has been apart of the public curriculum or standard practice for many years.

I say the best aspect of Common Core is that it is finally waking up parents to what has been happening in our public schools for a very long time.


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm a teacher who teaches under the common core. To be honest, I don't really understand why anyone has a problem with them. They do not dictate what I teach, they merely act as a checklist to make sure I have taught the basics. Frankly, if a teacher isn't teaching the stuff covered by the common core they weren't doing their job to begin with. Let me provide a few examples of common core standards:
_
Students will..._

*Provide reasons that support opinions.*

*Provide a concluding statement or section.*

*Establish and maintain a formal style and objective tone while attending to the norms and conventions of the discipline in which they are writing.*

So, when I assign an essay I am expected to make sure that kids actually know how to write one. Why is that objectionable?


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

V-NH said:


> I'm a teacher who teaches under the common core. To be honest, I don't really understand why anyone has a problem with them. They do not dictate what I teach, they merely act as a checklist to make sure I have taught the basics. Frankly, if a teacher isn't teaching the stuff covered by the common core they weren't doing their job to begin with. Let me provide a few examples of common core standards...Why is that objectionable?


So what are your thoughts on still more testing? Or do you not notice it so much in the upper levels as we do in the younger grades?
To the standards themselves, I agree. When I was first starting out, I taught in a one-room country school and Nebraska had just come out with their state standards. I leaned _heavily_ on them, as I didn't always put every grade in every text, so it allowed me to keep track of which kids were supposed to be in which ballparks!


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Tricky Grama said:


> Bipartisan. Yet Bush is blamed for it all.


Bush requested it, and considered that one of the feathers in his presidential cap. 
It's _his_ baby. :shrug:

To that same end, the National Governor's Association (bipartisan) created CC, but it's still Obama's.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

Well, I have read through all of this....I am still on the fence..
I agree that their should be some kind of minimum standard set. In my thinking this may not be the best set of standards but at least it is a starting point.

As for the advertisings in testing. I think a while ago companyâs paid to put their advertising on the tests or the school work...something like that..it was to help pay for the cost of the test. So not much new to that. Though I agree that kind of stuff should be kept out.

Did anyone watch the documentary "Waiting for Superman"?<no it is not about the superhero>:happy2:


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

ErinP said:


> So what are your thoughts on still more testing? Or do you not notice it so much in the upper levels as we do in the younger grades?
> To the standards themselves, I agree. When I was first starting out, I taught in a one-room country school and Nebraska had just come out with their state standards. I leaned _heavily_ on them, as I didn't always put every grade in every text, so it allowed me to keep track of which kids were supposed to be in which ballparks!


The only test given in high school in NH is the 11th grade test. I am really on the fence regarding the value of testing. On the one hand, I do agree that there should be an objective way to calculate whether or not I have done my job. On the other hand, I get that yearly testing at lower grades is a pretty serious burden. I don't think the solution is to get rid of standardized testing, but when you look at nationwide test scores and realize how few kids can do algebra, you've got to wonder what would happen if the metric was removed entirely. My guess is that less pressure would equate to even less learning.

Just as a note. The new popular Common Core standardized test is WAY harder than the old tests that they are replacing. Multiple possible answers to a question, intensive reading prompts, a section that tests listening skills, higher level math... it is intense. I don't feel that common core is reducing rigor. Rather, I think it is making school more challenging.


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## glenn amolenaar (Mar 3, 2007)

V-NH said:


> The only test given in high school in NH is the 11th grade test. I am really on the fence regarding the value of testing. On the one hand, I do agree that there should be an objective way to calculate whether or not I have done my job. On the other hand, I get that yearly testing at lower grades is a pretty serious burden. I don't think the solution is to get rid of standardized testing, but when you look at nationwide test scores and realize how few kids can do algebra, you've got to wonder what would happen if the metric was removed entirely. My guess is that less pressure would equate to even less learning.
> 
> Just as a note. The new popular Common Core standardized test is WAY harder than the old tests that they are replacing. Multiple possible answers to a question, intensive reading prompts, a section that tests listening skills, higher level math... it is intense. I don't feel that common core is reducing rigor. Rather, I think it is making school more challenging.


We live in a small town, like everyone knows everyone, the parents are no longer able to drop off items or visit school. The doors are locked this has been the last 2-3 years. The teachers are very rude to students and most parents, the good teachers have left system. I think the new "unpopular" common core is to blame. We have done research not just media and see NOTHING good with C/C unless you want the government to raise and train children to be dependent on big brother.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Yesterday our 3rd grader had a hard algebra problem on her homework. Is Common Core not to blame for that? Surely we didn't have any algebra in 3rd grade when I was in school. I see no reason to introduce algebra in a 3rd grade class when they haven't even mastered multiplication and division! Why throw stuff in like that? It just confuses the heck out of them. 

I like algebra, and it still took me a good several minutes before I could work out the answer....and even though I tried explaining it to her several times (with different explanations), the whole concept was completely over her head!

It's not just this one example, either. I have noticed a whole shift in the way math is taught. It used to be the basics, follow the rules (they are RULES for a reason) and figure out the answer. Now, they learn 5 different ways to do the same thing, which confuses the heck out of them. They barely grasp one concept before they're taught another, so they never REALLY learn the way to do it. I understand not all children learn the same way, so why not teach the basic way, and then find another way for the 1 or 2 who may not understand it?!


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

glenn amolenaar said:


> We live in a small town, like everyone knows everyone, the parents are no longer able to drop off items or visit school. The doors are locked this has been the last 2-3 years. The teachers are very rude to students and most parents, the good teachers have left system. I think the new "unpopular" common core is to blame.


Why? What does that have to do with Common Core? 



MDKatie said:


> I understand not all children learn the same way, so why not teach the basic way, and then find another way for the 1 or 2 who may not understand it?!


Because there's no such thing as "the basic way." There might be the _most common way_, but that always left kids in the dark, too. So the question becomes: Whose learning style do we teach to, and who doesn't matter?
BTW, _I_ remember doing algebra in third grade... (Of course that's not what it was called, but that's exactly what it was) 
You don't?


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## Nate_in_IN (Apr 5, 2013)

It has been hard for me to separate the effects from the multiple Federal initiatives in education. No Child Left Behind, Common Core, etc run together for me so it is difficult to pinpoint the exact piece of legislation which has the greatest impact.

I have two children, one of which is school aged. She attends public school and we are very happy with the education she is receiving.

That being said I have observed a couple of down sides in the last couple of years which the Federal laws are causing.

The first was a huge reluctance by the school administration have allow my child to skip a grade level. She was performing well above her grade level in all subjects. We, as her parents felt she needed to skip 5th grade and go straight into 6th. Her last teachers of the last two years supported this decision. It was the proper decision in her case. The school administration (principal, superintendent and school board) were heavily against this. I feel this is due to the fact they did not wish to provide further challenge to a student than necessary in order to maximize the standard testing score. In the end she advanced; but it took a lot of effort to allow that to happen. I feel this is a direct result of the pressure to succeed on standard testing. The school would rather have a student getting the best grade, but not achieving her best effort.

The second effect impacts the other end of the spectrum. Schools are ranked on the test according to the whole student body, even the "life skills" class. Our public school district consists of 4 k-8 schools all feeding a single high school. It used to be each school had a life skills class (these are students who are so handicapped they are not expected to receive a diploma). After all the standardized testing went into effect the school district changed how they handle these students. They have now combined all the k-8 classes into a single program. Each school then hosts the program for 3 years in a rotation. It places additional stress and strain onto these students and faculty having to switch venues frequently. This again is a direct result of the testing. This program has a significant impact on the grades, you can easily see the rotation in the history of the test scores. The rotation is done such that a single school does not get "penalized" for having the life skills program.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

I think my favorite line from my son's one teacher..."There are no wrong answers in math"...:run:
Matt


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Lots of $ are being made on the tests.If anyone really wants to know why CC needs to be banished, read the book- Control.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

so should we be banishing NCLB, too?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

"We live in a small town, like everyone knows everyone, the parents are no longer able to drop off items or visit school. The doors are locked this has been the last 2-3 years. The teachers are very rude to students and most parents, the good teachers have left system. I think the new "unpopular" common core is to blame. "

The doors being locked has nothing to do with Common Core and everything to do with Columbine, Sandy Hook, etc. We live in an increasingly violent society and the doors are locked for security reasons. I've never heard of parents being denied access. At every school I've been involved in parents just have to be buzzed into the office, sign in and get a visitor's badge. However, these procedures have nothing to do with Common Core. Neither does the rudeness of the staff or the relocation of staff. Staff come and go from schools and districts for a variety of reasons.



"I understand not all children learn the same way, so why not teach the basic way, and then find another way for the 1 or 2 who may not understand it?"

The "basic way" that all but 1 or 2 understand is a myth. The reality is that different methods work for different kids. I want my students to be able to 1) understand what they are doing and why they are doing it, 2) be able to get the right answer and 3) be able to get their answer quickly and efficiently. Beyond that, I don't give a rip what method they use because, as the old saying goes, "there's more than one way to skin a cat". I teach all ways to do something and let them pick what works best for them.


BTW, students have been doing algebra in elementary school since time immemorial. Any time your kid does a problem like 3 + ? = 7 they are, at a basic level, doing algebra. This is not new with Common Core.


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## glenn amolenaar (Mar 3, 2007)

I do not post to disagree or get into arguments. I have difficulty posting because of several posters. In answer to your post I feel common sense is worth a lot more than people who flaunt their education. The C/C is control of the children (in a bad way) and to be able to turn this Great USA into something many of our people gave their lives for.

Common Core is all about control of the people to let government tell you what to do, when you are of no use to them you will be gone. People need to wake up to what is happening to the USA. I do remember Hitler and seeing the current administration pushing and lies, it looks like they want another Hitler.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

If the goal is to have the highest number of students being able to read, write and do arithmetic at the simplest level, then test away- how do you know that they can otherwise? Fear of testing needs to be overcome by the parents and teachers. It's hard enough on the students without anxiety being added by people afraid for their jobs or that their children can't compete. Or that it makes parent feel dumb.
Just because it causes stress in everyone is no reason to eliminate it. That is part of the current problem- that people have bought into the lala world where everyone is respected because they were born. And nothing further should be required.

I do wonder whether part of the problem is that there are less clear cut answers from the back of the book. In an earlier criticism that a read question was that a mother 'nagged' to clean a room versus 'asked' to do it, i wonder if it is not more of both being acceptable responses rather than the school having an agenda.
Maybe the point of the reasons for an answer being important, even if the answer is wrong, it that information is a clue as to where more focus needs to be given.

Frankly some teachers are pretty shaky on math and grammar anyway, so some of the criticism may represent that rather than a problem with the actual program. Testing is not only for the student's benefit but for the teacher's and administrator's too. It may be a perversion to think of it in terms of individual criticism rather than a direction for improvement.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Does anyone remember (ya gotta be older than dirt) the Iowa? tests? Maybe it was Ohio? Every year we took 'em & they were the same every yr. You got a score of, say: 3.9 & this meant your results put you at 3rd grade 9th month. I actually loved 'em b/c I wanted to see my progression.
They were a battery of all stuff-math, reading, grammar, (not grampa) etc.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> Does anyone remember (ya gotta be older than dirt) the Iowa? tests? Maybe it was Ohio? Every year we took 'em & they were the same every yr. You got a score of, say: 3.9 & this meant your results put you at 3rd grade 9th month. I actually loved 'em b/c I wanted to see my progression.
> They were a battery of all stuff-math, reading, grammar, (not grampa) etc.


You don't have to be older than dirt. The Iowa tests are still administered.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

For testing my 8th grader this spring, I considered the ITBS (Iowa Test of Basic Skills), though went with the Stanford instead. :shrug:

(However, the grade equivalency isn't really the valid part of the test. Percentiles tell you much more than GRE)


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

7thswan said:


> Lots of $ are being made on the tests.If anyone really wants to know why CC needs to be banished, read the book- Control.


Correction, the name of the book is "Conform".


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

SC opted out, no CC.
So did OK.
Seems like another just did...can't remember.


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## Nate_in_IN (Apr 5, 2013)

Tricky Grama said:


> SC opted out, no CC.
> So did OK.
> Seems like another just did...can't remember.


Indiana is out. It was the first to leave. Nebraska and I think treo others never did join.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Nebraska fought tooth and nail against getting drug into NCLB. We were the last by a number of years... It's a safe bet we won't be too quick to get on the CC bandwagon, either. 

That said, now that these states are dropping CC, does that mean we're going to go after NCLB next? Or are people going to go on about their merry way, thinking they've accomplished something?


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## Nate_in_IN (Apr 5, 2013)

ErinP said:


> Nebraska fought tooth and nail against getting drug into NCLB. We were the last by a number of years... It's a safe bet we won't be too quick to get on the CC bandwagon, either.
> 
> That said, now that these states are dropping CC, does that mean we're going to go after NCLB next? Or are people going to go on about their merry way, thinking they've accomplished something?


Like I said before these laws are so intertwined that my knowledge is hard to separate between them.

Indiana has adopted their own standards which critics say are essentially the same as CC. Indiana was once a champion of CC, so something must have changed.

Personally I do not like NCLB either. I think it is responsible for more trouble than CC. I agree with having states publish statistics about their schools, but feel the law just needed to stop there. Politicians wanted to have financial gain tired to the results directly, but I don't see that as necessary. Parents would use the test scores to pick their school district, which in turn would result in financial gain.


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

Nate_in_IN said:


> It has been hard for me to separate the effects from the multiple Federal initiatives in education. No Child Left Behind, Common Core, etc run together for me so it is difficult to pinpoint the exact piece of legislation which has the greatest impact.
> 
> I have two children, one of which is school aged. She attends public school and we are very happy with the education she is receiving.
> 
> ...


Just so you know, after all of the students take standardized tests the data is actually broken down into categories. There are categories for gender, race, socioeconomic status, special education, and others. That said, schools and states are well aware of how specific groups of students are doing within a different district. Although life skills (severely handicapped) students are included in the completed data, they are recorded as a group so you can see how they did compared to other groups.


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm kind of shocked about some of the comments here from people upset that their children are being challenged. Like I said above, I am a teacher and I consider it my job to challenge my students and push them to learn and achieve. I would be upset if a teacher didn't challenge my children. We live in an increasingly competitive world and dreams aside, most people are going to have to get a job. The more competitive you are and the more you know, the easier you will find a job when you need one.

Remember that we live in a globalized world, so your children are going to have to compete with young adults from China, India, Brazil, Japan, and other industrialized or industrializing nations. That doesn't mean they're literally going to have to go out and compete with one of those people. What it means is that our workforce has to be *better in every, single way* (education, training, work ethic, attitude) than the workforce in those countries or companies aren't going to pay the high costs of doing business here. There simply won't be new jobs available unless companies feel that our labor is worth what they have to pay for it.

The world is rapidly changing, but it isn't changing in a way that facilitates our homesteading lifestyle. Things are getting more expensive, jobs are requiring more skills, and real wages are staying roughly the same and have for about 40 years. I mean, my wife and I had to get masters degrees and great jobs before we could even begin homesteading, which is basically the antithesis of the idea of living off the land and providing for oneself. I think we have an obligation to prepare our children for the changing world rather than covering our ears and pretending that it isn't happening and that we can keep doing things how we always have. I want my kids to grow up and be able to do anything that they want, but rejecting the winds of change isn't going to facilitate opportunities in the way that challenging them will.

If not Common Core, then what?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

V-NH said:


> I'm kind of shocked about some of the comments here from people upset that their children are being challenged. Like I said above, I am a teacher and I consider it my job to challenge my students and push them to learn and achieve. I would be upset if a teacher didn't challenge my children. We live in an increasingly competitive world and dreams aside, most people are going to have to get a job. The more competitive you are and the more you know, the easier you will find a job when you need one.
> 
> Remember that we live in a globalized world, so your children are going to have to compete with young adults from China, India, Brazil, Japan, and other industrialized or industrializing nations. That doesn't mean they're literally going to have to go out and compete with one of those people. What it means is that our workforce has to be *better in every, single way* (education, training, work ethic, attitude) than the workforce in those countries or companies aren't going to pay the high costs of doing business here. There simply won't be new jobs available unless companies feel that our labor is worth what they have to pay for it.
> 
> ...


What did we do before cc or nclb? Seemed to work pretty good back then! We didn't have all these social programs, kids used to be able to bring their lunches, they used to be able to run around too! Some even had pocket knives! The horror!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

JeffreyD said:


> What did we do before cc or nclb? Seemed to work pretty good back then! We didn't have all these social programs, kids used to be able to bring their lunches, they used to be able to run around too! Some even had pocket knives! The horror!


None of that has anything to do with Common Core or NCLB. BTW, kids can still bring their lunches and even run around.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> None of that has anything to do with Common Core or NCLB. BTW, kids can still bring their lunches and even run around.


Kids here (California)cannot bring their lunches unless they meet certain requirements. There really is no reason for them to bring one because their provided lunch and breakfast at taxpayer expense, even though they throw away most of the food now! They also are prohibited from running on campus grounds.....they might get a scrape, and the district will get sued. Yet, their too fat, got it!

Why doesn't it have anything to do with cc or nclb? Seemed to work pretty good before them!


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Kids in California can't participate in PE or sports? I don't believe that. What are the lunch requirements? I looked but couldn't find anything. I assume you have a link since you know this already?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Will Common Core teach spelling and punctuation? Because that would be good.


Will it teach cursive, because that would be good! Will it teach history accurately, because that would be good too!


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> Will it teach cursive, because that would be good! Will it teach history accurately, because that would be good too!


Which history is that? The earth is 5000 years old?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Kids in California can't participate in PE or sports? I don't believe that. What are the lunch requirements? I looked but couldn't find anything. I assume you have a link since you know this already?


I have kids! That's how I know. I don't need a link, I live it! I didn't say they could not participate in PE or sports. Nice try! They can't run around at lunch or recess and PE is a joke as far as physical activity is concerned.

Maybe I should mention that my mother has been an educationally handicapped teacher her whole life!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Which history is that? The earth is 5000 years old?


Why do you think that the earth is only 5000 years old?


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## Cookie2 (Feb 21, 2014)

Here is an interesting article: http://mississippipep.wordpress.com...niel-knows-regulatory-burden-is-real-problem/

BY: B. Keith Plunkett @Keithplunkett

In a recent AP story, Haley Barbour described how he and other lobbyists and supporters of Senator Thad Cochran will attempt to attack Senator Chris McDaniel over the next weeks on his stance of reducing federal involvement in education. ...

Predictably, Barbour&#8217;s stated political plan to save Cochran is to do exactly that again.

He wants to raise the ire of educators against McDaniel by scaring teachers into believing their paychecks will dry up if money doesn&#8217;t continue to flow from Washington, and that only Cochran can do it. What Barbour conveniently leaves out is that with this federal money also comes millions of dollars in liabilities in the form of red tape and federal regulations.

By systematically reducing the federal footprint in state decisions over education, the state would save millions of dollars per year in administrative costs, leaving dollars available for the classroom and to pay teachers.

...

Local control also represents a loss of control for lobbyists like Haley Barbour, and power brokers who like to pull the strings of Senators like Thad Cochran for their clients.

...

Common Core is supported by Barbour despite never being voted on by Congress or the Mississippi Legislature.

...

With the passage of NCLB, federal spending on education skyrocketed. By 2010 federal education spending had increased 375% from it&#8217;s low in 1983-84 and had become big business attracting lobbyists and non-profits who wanted to cash in.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I think the article is pretty clear. One of the reasons Common Core is so popular among bureaucrats is because a federal public education system gives lobbyists one place to influence instead of forcing them to deal with thousands of smaller school districts across the nation. Common Core and NCLB continues to exist despite clear evidence that such moves have caused increases in educational spending without any rise in student performance. Politicians aren't implementing Common Core for "the children", they're doing it for their own personal gain.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> I have kids! That's how I know. I don't need a link, I live it! I didn't say they could not participate in PE or sports. Nice try! They can't run around at lunch or recess and PE is a joke as far as physical activity is concerned.
> 
> Maybe I should mention that my mother has been an educationally handicapped teacher her whole life!


They don't do PE or play sports on the school campus? You said they couldn't run on the school campus. 


I'm very sorry about your mother.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> They don't do PE or play sports on the school campus? You said they couldn't run on the school campus.
> 
> 
> I'm very sorry about your mother.


That's s not what I said! 
Not sure why you constantly do that, but I do have an idea!

My mother is a teacher of the educationally handicapped! Not a handicapped teacher. I said it the way she does!


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

JeffreyD said:


> Kids here (California)cannot bring their lunches unless they meet certain requirements. There really is no reason for them to bring one because their provided lunch and breakfast at taxpayer expense, even though they throw away most of the food now! They also are prohibited from running on campus grounds.....they might get a scrape, and the district will get sued. Yet, their too fat, got it!
> 
> Why doesn't it have anything to do with cc or nclb? Seemed to work pretty good before them!


That really doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, it's the same as saying "Man, dinner was fine before someone invented airplanes." The two simply have no relation to each other.

*Common Core is nothing more than a list of standards that teachers have to cover in their classes.* If you've got a problem with the idea of teachers teaching grammer and polynomials, I guess I understand the anti-Common Core sentiment. The things you're applying to it, however, are entirely unrelated.


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

There is no Common Core for history nor will there be in the forseeable future. Common Core is made up of skills based standards rather than content based standards. So, for example, if they ever do develop history standards for the Common Core here is how it would and wouldn't look:

*It would not look like this:*
_Students will understand George Washington's contribution to the American Revolution._

*It would look like this:*
_Students will be able to use details from a primary source document to support their opinion._

There's a lot of misunderstanding about what Common Core is. It is not responsible for all of the ills in education, it is just a set of guidelines to make sure teachers are teaching useful 21st century skills in their classrooms.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

As to common core...I'll repeat the teacher's comments..."there are no wrong answers in math"!
Challenged? Good Lord, homework is five minutes of see spot run in third grade. Kids are BORED TO DEATH at school...they come home and want to learn from my old books and are amazed. Bring that back to school and you get shunned for knowing how to actually show 16 X 4.
At my Scout meetings, third graders can't do the "make change for a dollar" chapter...YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!
Challenged my rear quarters...they still have a week of school until it's over...amazingly, our third grader's final results are already posted on his school page (need a password, not general info...all As, in case you want to know)...how can this be with a week of school left?

Matt


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

Roadking said:


> As to common core...I'll repeat the teacher's comments..."there are no wrong answers in math"!
> Challenged? Good Lord, homework is five minutes of see spot run in third grade. Kids are BORED TO DEATH at school...they come home and want to learn from my old books and are amazed. Bring that back to school and you get shunned for knowing how to actually show 16 X 4.
> At my Scout meetings, third graders can't do the "make change for a dollar" chapter...YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!
> Challenged my rear quarters...they still have a week of school until it's over...amazingly, our third grader's final results are already posted on his school page (need a password, not general info...all As, in case you want to know)...how can this be with a week of school left?
> ...


That is definitely related to the specific teacher or school district. I teach under the Common Core and my classes run right up until the last day.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Roadking said:


> As to common core...I'll repeat the teacher's comments..."there are no wrong answers in math"!
> Challenged? Good Lord, homework is five minutes of see spot run in third grade. Kids are BORED TO DEATH at school...they come home and want to learn from my old books and are amazed. Bring that back to school and you get shunned for knowing how to actually show 16 X 4.
> At my Scout meetings, third graders can't do the "make change for a dollar" chapter...YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!
> Challenged my rear quarters...they still have a week of school until it's over...amazingly, our third grader's final results are already posted on his school page (need a password, not general info...all As, in case you want to know)...how can this be with a week of school left?
> ...


This has been my experience also!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

V-NH said:


> That really doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, it's the same as saying "Man, dinner was fine before someone invented airplanes." The two simply have no relation to each other.
> 
> *Common Core is nothing more than a list of standards that teachers have to cover in their classes.* If you've got a problem with the idea of teachers teaching grammer and polynomials, I guess I understand the anti-Common Core sentiment. The things you're applying to it, however, are entirely unrelated.


PE and food are part of a different discussion that have been included because they have changed along with these cc or nclb programs, my point was, what was wrong with the curriculum that was in place 20 years ago, other than history? Has spelling changed? Math? Cursive writing? Oh, wait, their not going to teach that anymore, why?


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

The problem is that in many cases those things were not being taught or at least were not being taught effectively. Common Core standardizes things so that students across America are guaranteed an education that teaches them useful skills. We went through decades (if not longer) where schools had no standardized curriculum whatsoever or followed a loose set of state standards with no accountability measures. The result was an education system that produces students who are less adept than their competition. 

Prior to all of the discussion about Common Core, I read a book about school curriculum. This guy went in and started interviewing teachers and students in a large district and realized that students were being taught how to read and analyze Charlotte's Web three times throughout their education. That time was wasted all because of a loose curriculum, poor communication, and no accountability. The reality is that our education system wasn't working and it still has a long way to go before it is completely competitive with the rest of the industrialized world. Common Core is an attempt to reform a system that was failing, not one that was working well as you keep suggestion.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

V-NH said:


> The This guy went in and started interviewing teachers and students in a large district and realized that students were being taught how to read and analyze Charlotte's Web three times throughout their education.


My oldest daughter had to read and analyze Fahrenheit 451 twice in two consecutive years in her small, rural high school. A complete waste of time and the kids were bored. The teacher in the second year knew it had been taught the year before but taught it again anyway.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

V-NH said:


> The problem is that in many cases those things were not being taught or at least were not being taught effectively. Common Core standardizes things so that students across America are guaranteed an education that teaches them useful skills. We went through decades (if not longer) where schools had no standardized curriculum whatsoever or followed a loose set of state standards with no accountability measures. The result was an education system that produces students who are less adept than their competition.
> 
> Prior to all of the discussion about Common Core, I read a book about school curriculum. This guy went in and started interviewing teachers and students in a large district and realized that students were being taught how to read and analyze Charlotte's Web three times throughout their education. That time was wasted all because of a loose curriculum, poor communication, and no accountability. The reality is that our education system wasn't working and it still has a long way to go before it is completely competitive with the rest of the industrialized world. Common Core is an attempt to reform a system that was failing, not one that was working well as you keep suggestion.


It worked well for me up until I realized that public schools didn't care anything about the students. Just so you know, i had trig, statistical analysis, calculus, not to mention algebra and the best, most useful class I ever had was consumer math...that was in 7th and 8th grade! Millions never had a problem with the curriculum. It was, and still is, about money, and indoctrination! Sure, some cry and whine that it's for the betterment of the students, but how much money is enough? Schools in non - industrial countries have soundly whooped our rear ends when it come to education, and they pay a fraction of what we taxpayers pay.

So why are these poor countries surpassing the greatest country in the world? My answer is that the government doesn't want smart kids because they ask questions! The government doesn't like questions. The government hates the truth!


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

New York had high school standards for students since the mid 1800's . I believe 1870 to pin point it best. Please note that constitutional education is a state not a federal issue....thus each state would have different view on the needs of the students. With that knowledge one should understand one primary reason I am against common core. Common sense is lost in the propaganda lessons.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

JeffreyD said:


> That's s not what I said!
> Not sure why you constantly do that, but I do have an idea!
> 
> My mother is a teacher of the educationally handicapped! Not a handicapped teacher. I said it the way she does!


Tangent alert:
She does?? My mom was a SpEd teacher until she retired, 5 years ago. 
I never heard her call herself anything but "special ed"... Interesting how terminology varies.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> As to common core...I'll repeat the teacher's comments..."there are no wrong answers in math"!


I keep hearing this one. What teacher said this, and more importantly, where is it found in Common Core??


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

ErinP said:


> Tangent alert:
> She does?? My mom was a SpEd teacher until she retired, 5 years ago.
> I never heard her call herself anything but "special ed"... Interesting how terminology varies.


Yes, Burbank school district doesn't like the term "special education", they said it's demeaning by inferring that those students are "special". In their eye's, no one is! They like the term "educationally handicapped", since that term is suggesting that their just not up to speed as are some of the other students! But, my mom historically, has used the term "special ed". She said that she had been corrected enough by the newer principal that she won't use special ed. anymore! Me, I think special ed is probably best! It's interesting to hear them reason why "handicapped" is better!


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## glenn amolenaar (Mar 3, 2007)

What I notice when ever C/C is discussed. It seems only teachers and politicians see any reason to defend C/C. Common Core lacks common sense. All of a sudden the elected are seeing the wasted taxpayer money and pulling out. Kind of like just sign it the public will accept it after all the government knows best how to save money.


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## Cookie2 (Feb 21, 2014)

V-NH said:


> There is no Common Core for history nor will there be in the forseeable future.


And yet there are posts all over the web of Common Core aligned curriculum being developed to include history or social studies content in Language Arts or Math sections. 

Follow the link below and pay particular attention to page 6:
http://4d0t1l1r0zqn4en7do240nzq5g7.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/files/2013/11/r11_nl_en_LPI_t_g5u2w2.pdf


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> Yes, Burbank school district doesn't like the term "special education", they said it's demeaning by inferring that those students are "special". In their eye's, no one is! They like the term "educationally handicapped", since that term is suggesting that their just not up to speed as are some of the other students! But, my mom historically, has used the term "special ed". She said that she had been corrected enough by the newer principal that she won't use special ed. anymore! Me, I think special ed is probably best! It's interesting to hear them reason why "handicapped" is better!


http://www.burbankusd.org/District/Department/14-Special-Ed-and-Psychology-Services


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

glenn amolenaar said:


> What I notice when ever C/C is discussed. It seems only teachers and politicians see any reason to defend C/C.


And yet that's NOT how it's shaking out in this thread...


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

ErinP said:


> And yet that's NOT how it's shaking out in this thread...


True. I'm not a teacher or a politician. I'm a parent.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Common Core is the latest attempt by the Dept. of Education to justify its bloated self and budget. Below is what we are all paying for. Keep in mind, this is just what is federally funded, and in addition to all your local taxes for schools/education. 

The information might be outdated, but if it is -- you can be sure that there are even more personnel on the payroll now, not less!

So, Common Core was the best they could come up with, with an annual budget of almost $70billion?? $70 billion!!!!! I want my money back.

*[FONT=&quot]The U.S. Department of Education Organizational Structure[/FONT]*​ [FONT=&quot]The U.S. Department of Education is comprised of many offices that carry out the different components of the Department's mission. Listed below are the different offices and their major responsibilities: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Office of the Secretary
Forms agency goals and represents the Department in various functions.
Secretary Richard W. Riley[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Office of the Deputy Secretary
Is responsible for internal management of the Department. Works with the Secretary to achieve policy goals. Oversees program offices and external relations.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deputy Secretary Madeleine M. Kunin [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Office of the Under Secretary
Provides advice about policy to the Secretary and is also responsible for the Budget Office and the Office of Policy and Planning. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Office of Chief Financial Officer
Oversees the Department's financial matters and coordinates contracts and grants.
Chief Financial Officer Donald R. Wurtz [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Office of Inspector General
Investigates agency programs and operations to prevent waste, fraud and abuse and promotes the overall goals of the Department.
James B. Thomas, Jr. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Office of the General Counsel
Provides the Department with legal services.
General Counsel Judith A. Winston [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Office of Postsecondary Education
Provides students in postsecondary education with financial assistance and leadership. Supports institutions of higher education in the development of appropriate housing, facilities, and instructional programs.
Assistant Secretary Thomas W. Payzant [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services
Promotes and provides federal funding to improve education for disabled children and adults.
Assistant Secretary David A. Longanecker [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Office of Bilingual Education and Minority Languages Affairs
Oversees different programs to help students with limited ability to speak English.
Director Eugene E. Garcia [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Office of Vocational and Adult Education
Helps to provide funding for programs to prepare people of all ages with the basic skills for employment.
Assistant Secretary Augusta Souza Kappner [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Office of Civil Rights
Enforces laws prohibiting discrimination on the basis of race, color, sex, age, or disability in different educational instructional programs that benefit from federal funds. Gives technical assistance to schools to achieve voluntary compliance with the civil rights laws.
Assistant Secretary Norma V. Cantu [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Office of Educational Research and Improvement
Oversees research funding. Demonstrates ways to improve education and distributes statistical information about the condition of education.
Assistant Secretary Sharon P. Robinson [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Office of Legislation and Congressional Affairs
Serves as Congressional liaison and coordinates legislative activities.
Assistant Secretary Kay L. Casstevens [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Office of Intergovernmental and Interagency Affairs
Serves as intermediary to intergovernmental, international, community and other groups. The Office of Private Education helps to maintain quality education for those attending private school.
Acting Assistant Secretary Henry M. Smith [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Office of Human Resources and Administration Provides the Department with administrative, personnel, technology and other support services and administers the Family Education Rights and Privacy Act.
Assistant Secretary Rodney A. McCowan [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]All Department of Education agencies and programs have their headquarters and operations in Washington, DC where approximately 3600 staff members occupy several buildings.[/FONT]


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

So, question for all of you that dislike the common core<not trying to start a fight but really am curious>.

How would you make sure that children are being taught the basic skills to survive in the real world. Thinking through problems is important but you have to have the fundamental concepts to think through the problems. Yes/No?


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

Ziptie said:


> So, question for all of you that dislike the common core<not trying to start a fight but really am curious>.
> 
> How would you make sure that children are being taught the basic skills to survive in the real world. Thinking through problems is important but you have to have the fundamental concepts to think through the problems. Yes/No?


I remember my father always 'testing' me or engaging me to see what I have learned in school. For example, when we stopped at the bait shop and got our total, he would pull out his money and ask me, 'if I give him a 5, how much money is he going to give me back?'

Dad had all sorts of different things like this he used 'test' me. Mostly math, since that was my weakest subject. He worked these lessons into much of our time together, now that I am recalling it. My mom did, too.

My parents made sure that I was getting an education. Granted, while they couldn't help much when I got to high school and was learning trig, calculus, etc, they did make sure that I had gotten the basics. But, that's just me and my example.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Just going over some of the "year end" papers from our third grader...
The re-writing of history is horrifying...they can't bring a lot of their work home...until the year is about over. something from edhelper dot com, by an M L Bushong has me especially agitated regarding the history of the flag. Not only is it nonsense, but it's written for a kindergarten grade kid. Re-write history and dumb down society.
Can't wait for more of this nonsense to come home.
Don't even get me going about the math...in high school I was on the "mathletes"...prep school, exclusive, had college credits banked by sophomore year, and had math competitions with other schools...stuff college didn't touch unless you were in a math specific course. My kids can do much of it in the 3rd and 6th grade...many kids still struggle with 4x4=?
Truly sad.

This is not the country I grew up in.

Matt


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Roadking said:


> Just going over some of the "year end" papers from our third grader...
> The re-writing of history is horrifying...they can't bring a lot of their work home...until the year is about over. something from edhelper dot com, by an M L Bushong has me especially agitated regarding the history of the flag. Not only is it nonsense, but it's written for a kindergarten grade kid. Re-write history and dumb down society.
> Can't wait for more of this nonsense to come home.
> Don't even get me going about the math...in high school I was on the "mathletes"...prep school, exclusive, had college credits banked by sophomore year, and had math competitions with other schools...stuff college didn't touch unless you were in a math specific course. My kids can do much of it in the 3rd and 6th grade...many kids still struggle with 4x4=?
> ...


How was the history of the flag rewritten?


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

glenn amolenaar said:


> What I notice when ever C/C is discussed. It seems only teachers and politicians see any reason to defend C/C. Common Core lacks common sense. All of a sudden the elected are seeing the wasted taxpayer money and pulling out. Kind of like just sign it the public will accept it after all the government knows best how to save money.


That's primarily because people outside of the public sphere, specifically the sphere of public education, have little to no understanding of how these things are actually implemented within schools. It's the same as pretending that you are a doctor and trying to diagnose yourself. With enough research, sometimes you might be right. Most of the time you'll have no clue, because you don't have the same exposure and experience that the professionals do.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

Ziptie said:


> So, question for all of you that dislike the common core<not trying to start a fight but really am curious>.
> 
> How would you make sure that children are being taught the basic skills to survive in the real world. Thinking through problems is important but you have to have the fundamental concepts to think through the problems. Yes/No?


Define "real world". 

It took me three years to figure out that what my daughter was being fed in school would NOT prepare her for the world once it was her time to be graduated. Now, if you want your kid to make it in the world the gov't is creating for the minions ... Keep them in school. But the basic skills my kids are learning far surpass anything that a corporate text book company could ever offer in a gov't run classroom.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

Given the freedom to do so, your kids will amaze you with their ability to learn. 

http://www.technologyreview.com/new...teachers-ethiopian-children-teach-themselves/

Just like we've been taught to believe our bodies can't function well without intervention (you know, "well-checks and annual physicals), we've been misguided in regards to how capable our kids actually are. The idea of forced assimilation under the direction of a well-indoctrinated teacher in a relatively new concept. Yet for some reason we have to make it a priority to teach seven year olds that banks exist to loan money people for large purchases like homes. The writing is all over the wall when your eyes are willing to see it.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

PrettyPaisley said:


> Define "real world".
> 
> It took me three years to figure out that what my daughter was being fed in school would NOT prepare her for the world once it was her time to be graduated. Now, if you want your kid to make it in the world the gov't is creating for the minions ... Keep them in school. But the basic skills my kids are learning far surpass anything that a corporate text book company could ever offer in a gov't run classroom.



My kids somehow managed an education to prepare them to be independent women while also learning the life skills that they needed. Animal husbandry, gardening, etc. Don't most kids growing up in the country learn these skills?


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

A trend I've noticed on this board is the same people who complain about how awful education is "these days" also don't want the implementation of standards. 
So, the question becomes: what IS the solution to the education quandary?


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

Ziptie said:


> So, question for all of you that dislike the common core.
> 
> How would you make sure that children are being taught the basic skills to survive in the real world. Thinking through problems is important but you have to have the fundamental concepts to think through the problems. Yes/No?


Use that 70 billion to reward successful teachers with significant pay increases. Teachers should be graded on multiple points and standards. The teachers reviews should include parent and student feedback, standardized testing, reviews from the next years teacher and principle, and statistical analysis of prior students (how many go to college, start a business, drop out etc.)

I also think the reviews should be public knowledge.


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## glenn amolenaar (Mar 3, 2007)

ErinP said:


> A trend I've noticed on this board is the same people who complain about how awful education is "these days" also don't want the implementation of standards.
> So, the question becomes: what IS the solution to the education quandary?


The problem is the do nothing parents, they turn the children over to the government and think the government will do it right! WRONG where is common sense? Most people have been dumbed down to the point they can not see the total destruction of the Freedom we once had in the USA. Parents are to raise their children not turn them over to the government. But there are so many that depend on freebies they have sold out to parenting.
And if people can not see through Common Core and all the lies from D.C.
and the downward spin including posters here then we all might as well line up. I remember WWll and Hitler sorry but Hitler was guilty and sick just like our current so called leaders.


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## glenn amolenaar (Mar 3, 2007)

V-NH said:


> That's primarily because people outside of the public sphere, specifically the sphere of public education, have little to no understanding of how these things are actually implemented within schools. It's the same as pretending that you are a doctor and trying to diagnose yourself. With enough research, sometimes you might be right. Most of the time you'll have no clue, because you don't have the same exposure and experience that the professionals do.


Well sorry to say I disagree about the professionals, look at all the problems in our government. I'm sure the professional lifetime politicians and the low morals of some of them are to blame. To often the professional thinks they are gods. Now if they would use common sense and forget control they may do good, but I'm old enough to know control when I see it.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

gweny said:


> Use that 70 billion to reward successful teachers with significant pay increases. Teachers should be graded on multiple points and standards. The teachers reviews should include parent and student feedback, standardized testing, reviews from the next years teacher and principle, and statistical analysis of prior students (how many go to college, start a business, drop out etc.)
> 
> I also think the reviews should be public knowledge.


"include parent and student feedback"..
Now we did this in collage..the problem that I see with this is..The hardest teachers that are teaching the most info will get graded the lowest. 

Plus your still including testing ..that seems be one of the bigger complaints about common core is all the testing.

FeralFemale-That is great about your parents quizzing you, but you had to learn those skills from someone/where. Not sure how that would equate to testing kids..teachers sometimes lie to get better scores..

PrettyPaisley-Well "real world" ...if I put in productive citizen..well going to get me fried for that wording....plus, that is not just the correct wording either. 

I want my children to grow up to be independent..to be able to take care of their own needs but know how to work with others to accomplish things.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Home schooling along side my son education now that he is in a public school. Abingdon take 5 classes this summer to avoid certain subjects and teachers. That is how we work around common core. Plus I am at his school everyday, every dance every fund raiser. 

Parents being involved in parenting and political matters as a mom and son we attend public meetings.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Education is a family and state issue it is not a national matter for the feds to deal with. Fed up with the feds over stepping their place. I am of the belief that the ballot box is the best way to end common core.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

...and NCLB?


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

gweny said:


> Use that 70 billion to reward successful teachers with significant pay increases. Teachers should be graded on multiple points and standards. The teachers reviews should include parent and student feedback, standardized testing, reviews from the next years teacher and principle, and statistical analysis of prior students (how many go to college, start a business, drop out etc.)
> 
> I also think the reviews should be public knowledge.


The review system you're describing is insane and frankly not worth it for my $35,000 per year salary. Furthermore, there are laws in place that prevent employers from making performance issues public and including others in the discussion. You're expecting something from teachers that no one in any other field would ever tolerate. The day my 14 year old students get to determine my job performance is the day I'll seek a new career. I mean, teenagers aren't even close to being mature or capable of that kind of responsibility. I have had kids freak out and swear at me because I ask them not to hit other students or make severely inappropriate comments. Including those same students in a discussion related to my performance would turn the profession into a popularity contest and push many good teachers out. 

Remember that teachers, like those in other professions, have homes to pay for and families to feed. They're going to conform to whatever they have to do to keep their job. If you want me to spend my spare time making sure that I get favorable reviews from all of my students and their parents, I'll do it. However, I have 120 students that rotate out each quarter, meaning I have 480 students in a typical school year. That's not going to leave much time for actual teaching, grading, and planning though. There's no way to balance the normal 10 hour teaching day (which includes actual teaching, planning, and grading) and keeping in touch with 480 sets of parents so that they have material with which to review me.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Some gleaning NEEDS to happen in the ranks of teachers. I really do not care what bills a person has gotten themselves into. I demand that the do the job or leave but filtering works for me too.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

gweny said:


> Use that 70 billion to reward successful teachers with significant pay increases. Teachers should be graded on multiple points and standards. The teachers reviews should include parent and student feedback, standardized testing, reviews from the next years teacher and principle, and statistical analysis of prior students (how many go to college, start a business, drop out etc.)
> 
> I also think the reviews should be public knowledge.


Really? My evaluation should involve feedback from parents who refuse to answer my multiple phone calls, notes, requests for meetings and who won't even answer the door when I make home visits? Do you really think those parents (who make up the majority of my parents) have any idea at all about what is going on in my class or what kind of teacher I am? Statistical analysis regarding how many of my students that I may have had in kindergarten go on to college is silly. My own son isn't intending to go to college or start a business. So, in your world, that means his kindergarten teacher was ineffective and his decision not to attend college or start a business would reflect poorly on her evaluation. I'll make my job performance public knowledge when every other profession has to do the same.

BTW, I just got the results of my evaluation. I am a highly effective teacher with one of the few evaluations on staff that have mostly 4s (highest rating) across the board. Ratings are based on principal observations, progress toward professional goals and student progress (you know, things that are actually relevant, as opposed to most of what you proposed).


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

SLFarm, that is really atrocious how the parents of your students are behaving. You sound like a conscientious teacher, and hope you can be one of those who really makes a difference for a kid and they will remember all their lives. 

The situation you described, isn't that a strike against common core? No matter what the situation is in any given area, the challenges faced in any classroom, here is what DC dreamed up for you to teach, so just do it?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

MO_cows said:


> SLFarm, that is really atrocious how the parents of your students are behaving. You sound like a conscientious teacher, and hope you can be one of those who really makes a difference for a kid and they will remember all their lives.
> 
> The situation you described, isn't that a strike against common core? No matter what the situation is in any given area, the challenges faced in any classroom, here is what DC dreamed up for you to teach, so just do it?


My issue with Common Core, which I detailed in my first post in this thread, is not that they exist. I really think that having a somewhat standardized list of things to teach across the country is a good idea. It would have been an even better idea if they had actually invited teachers to be on the CC committee. I have had kids move to MI from other states (which I will not name) who had never been taught topics that Michigan covered in the previous grade. Their state didn't require that particular topic to be taught in the same grade as MI. Since we covered it in the previous grade, the move ins missed that topic entirely. That is one of the big issues that CC is seeking to address. With each state having its own standards, you get some states where they are incredibly basic and shallow and some states where they are rich and complex. There really does need to be some equity in expectations across state lines. Is CC the perfect way to get there? No, there need to be some revisions and changes addressing the problems.

The situation of "here is what DC dreamed up for you to teach, so just do it" isn't really a novel idea. It has always been that way, just at the state level. The legislators (who are the ones setting educational policy; they never ask the actual teachers who are expected to do the work) don't give a rip about the folks doing the work or the obstacles in the way. Their attitude is "just do it" and if you don't or can't, you'll be punished, not helped. That is not new with CC. Its been that way for a loooong time. So, because I don't get a say in the matter, I'm going to do the best I can for my kids. Which is what every teacher I know personally does every single day. (I'll only speak for the teachers I know personally.)


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

One thing I noticed about even attentive parents in my kid's high school: they liked the teachers who gave the easy A's. No real worry about their child actually LEARNING...they just wanted those A's for their kids. 
So the most popular teacher in the school was an incredibly lazy teacher who didn't use a curriculum in the class my daughter took with her. She showed 12 rated R movies instead.


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

V-NH said:


> The review system you're describing is insane and frankly not worth it for my $35,000 per year salary. Furthermore, there are laws in place that prevent employers from making performance issues public and including others in the discussion. You're expecting something from teachers that no one in any other field would ever tolerate. The day my 14 year old students get to determine my job performance is the day I'll seek a new career. I mean, teenagers aren't even close to being mature or capable of that kind of responsibility. I have had kids freak out and swear at me because I ask them not to hit other students or make severely inappropriate comments. Including those same students in a discussion related to my performance would turn the profession into a popularity contest and push many good teachers out.
> 
> Remember that teachers, like those in other professions, have homes to pay for and families to feed. They're going to conform to whatever they have to do to keep their job. If you want me to spend my spare time making sure that I get favorable reviews from all of my students and their parents, I'll do it. However, I have 120 students that rotate out each quarter, meaning I have 480 students in a typical school year. That's not going to leave much time for actual teaching, grading, and planning though. There's no way to balance the normal 10 hour teaching day (which includes actual teaching, planning, and grading) and keeping in touch with 480 sets of parents so that they have material with which to review me.


First off let me say I truly appreciate your passion. Teaching has got to be one of the most difficult jobs out there. I agree that grading a teacher solely on how well they are liked wont improve anything. That is why I suggest grading teachers with comprehension tests and long term statistics as well. I certainly am not suggesting that personal reviews from parents, students, or principles be made public. I should have clarified that I want the final numbers (and just the numbers for each part) to be public. If my kid is not going to like a teacher I'd like to know upfront. That certainly does not mean I will request another teacher though. If that hated one has good scores in retention, college applicants, and from their team leader (the principle) than I would jump at the chance for my kid to learn how to deal with a 'tough boss'. Sure, some parents wouldn't but their kids are going to be mediocre anyway. Let them have the fuzzy bunny teaching style. (or perhaps the kid is going through tough personal issues and need that ATM) plenty of parents purposely put their kids under the tutelage of tough coaches because the numbers show good long term results, so I don't expect any teacher to lose their job solely on one part of their performance review. That's actually the point... Performance should be judged on many parts of the job (I think that holds true for all jobs).
But.... A teacher that is well liked is well listened to and more likely to reach the student or instill a passion for learning. That should be rewarded. On the other hand, a teacher that works well as part of a team or has a high percentage of students that go on to higher education should also be rewarded. If a teacher can score high on all points than they are amazing and deserve a bigger bonus!
Notice I said 'bonus'. I'm not suggesting we disrupt current salary in any way. It is important to maintain an acceptable base salary. Teachers are molding the future. (though personally I think we should pay teachers a much higher base salary) They all should be rewarded handsomely for it..... But some really suck at it; to the point that the public should know... Perhaps to the point that they should find another line of work?! Without some form of public accountability these horrible educators will continue to teach disdain for learning.
However, I agree that we shouldn't be asking kids if they like their teacher. Student reviews should include questions about their feelings on the subject. ie. "do you like math?", "is math easy or hard on a scale of say 1-10 (5-6 being the optimum answer)" and "are you good at math?"
I use math because most kids hate it. The overall score would be graded against national scores so while 50% loving math might be a good score 50% loving art would be tragic.
I actually thought the biggest issue with my suggested system was the long term effect of underfunded schools getting the worst teachers. Though I'd like to note that is already an issue with the current system. Therefore, perhaps they should be graded on a curve since the home environment has an unmistakable effect on the long term statistics?


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

SLFarmMI said:


> Really? My evaluation should involve feedback from parents who refuse to answer my multiple phone calls, notes, requests for meetings and who won't even answer the door when I make home visits? Do you really think those parents (who make up the majority of my parents) have any idea at all about what is going on in my class or what kind of teacher I am? Statistical analysis regarding how many of my students that I may have had in kindergarten go on to college is silly. My own son isn't intending to go to college or start a business. So, in your world, that means his kindergarten teacher was ineffective and his decision not to attend college or start a business would reflect poorly on her evaluation. I'll make my job performance public knowledge when every other profession has to do the same.
> 
> BTW, I just got the results of my evaluation. I am a highly effective teacher with one of the few evaluations on staff that have mostly 4s (highest rating) across the board. Ratings are based on principal observations, progress toward professional goals and student progress (you know, things that are actually relevant, as opposed to most of what you proposed).


Are you actually suggesting that how many of your students go to college or drop out is not important?

If you don't believe you can make a difference or that you have an effect than why are you teaching?


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Why should college admission be the mark of a successful teacher? 
Particularly for any teacher under the 10th grade or so...


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

double post


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

gweny said:


> Are you actually suggesting that how many of your students go to college or drop out is not important?
> 
> If you don't believe you can make a difference or that you have an effect than why are you teaching?


I am saying that basing my evaluation on whether or not a student I may have had in *KINDERGARTEN* goes to college *12 YEARS AFTER* I taught them is not relevant to whether or not I am an effective teacher. I am also saying that not everyone needs to go to college and whether or not they do has no relevance to what kind of a teacher I am.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> I am saying that basing my evaluation on whether or not a student I may have had in *KINDERGARTEN* goes to college *12 YEARS AFTER* I taught them is not relevant to whether or not I am an effective teacher. I am also saying that not everyone needs to go to college and whether or not they do has no relevance to what kind of a teacher I am.


very true. 
From what I've seen, whether or not a student goes on to college is more dependent on their parents and the parental expectations and support.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

http://www.glennbeck.com/2014/05/29/on-july-22nd-we-will-not-conform/

[YOUTUBE]Oz7XOKcyRE0[/YOUTUBE]


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Glenn Beck is a joke. And a bad one at that.


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## glenn amolenaar (Mar 3, 2007)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Glenn Beck is a joke. And a bad one at that.


Well we are all entitled to our own opinion.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

glenn amolenaar said:


> Well we are all entitled to our own opinion.


Absolutely. But what is the point of putting up a Glenn Beck video? Anyone who thinks he's not a weeping nutjob has already seen it and everyone else wouldn't waste their time.


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## glenn amolenaar (Mar 3, 2007)

Here is a link to article by Phyllis Schlafly. Growing Rejection of Common Core.
http://www.wnd.com/2014/06/growing-rejection-of-common-core 

Our children have been in private and public school, Christian school and home schooled. Home schooling was not 6 hours a day it was 7 days a week. 
This lady explains C/C very well. I feel sorry for the children of the future if BO keeps pushing for his ways.


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## glenn amolenaar (Mar 3, 2007)

Tried to edit link. The letter r should be rejection-of-common-core 

Glenn


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

glenn amolenaar said:


> Here is a link to article by Phyllis Schlafly. Growing Rejection of Common Core.
> http://www.wnd.com/2014/06/growing-rejection-of-common-core
> 
> Our children have been in private and public school, Christian school and home schooled. Home schooling was not 6 hours a day it was 7 days a week.
> This lady explains C/C very well. I feel sorry for the children of the future if BO keeps pushing for his ways.



Oh even better. We're supposed to take the advice of a woman who believes that if women who are paid equally to men, they won't be able to find a husband? Seriously?


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

SLFarmMI said:


> I am saying that basing my evaluation on whether or not a student I may have had in *KINDERGARTEN* goes to college *12 YEARS AFTER* I taught them is not relevant to whether or not I am an effective teacher. I am also saying that not everyone needs to go to college and whether or not they do has no relevance to what kind of a teacher I am.


Younger children are the most impressionable. Do you at least agree with that? Because of that fact I do believe that a kindergarten teacher can make a difference that lasts a lifetime... Much longer than 12 measly years! 
As the first in a long line of teachers a kindergarten teacher sets the precedence. I did not say that the entire evaluation will be based on whether or not a student goes to college. It was one example of many statistics I believe should be monitored. Not the only, or even most important mark of success.
It is however a mark of a successful educator if a higher percentage of their students continue their education. 
The success of our economy is dependent on our ability to compete in a global market. Our ability to compete in todays global market requires a highly educated workforce. Therefore it is in everyone's best interest to facilitate and encourage kids to go to college.
As noted in another post I made in this thread, the numbers would only be compared to other educators in the same grade and/or subject. Your statistics would only be compared to the statistics of other kindergarten teachers at a national level. Also as previously noted this is a reward system. These numbers would be merely one facet of a system used to reward the best and encourage the rest.


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## glenn amolenaar (Mar 3, 2007)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Oh even better. We're supposed to take the advice of a woman who believes that if women who are paid equally to men, they won't be able to find a husband? Seriously?


LisaInN.Idaho,
I posted the link so people can look up another article about C/C! I did not post it for the STUPID remark about men/women. Why try to point the thread to a different direction. This is why I do not post often.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

glenn amolenaar said:


> Here is a link to article by Phyllis Schlafly. Growing Rejection of Common Core.
> http://www.wnd.com/2014/06/growing-rejection-of-common-core
> 
> Our children have been in private and public school, Christian school and home schooled. Home schooling was not 6 hours a day it was 7 days a week.
> This lady explains C/C very well. I feel sorry for the children of the future if BO keeps pushing for his ways.


I guess after reading this, I think finally figured out why I don't understand why people don't like this common core. I have read the standards, but things like this article bug me. Statements like this..

"introduces frivolous and illogical teaching techniques to no apparent purpose, while imposing new standards that are not meaningful improvements"

I need specifics. I didn't see anywhere where it talks about how you have to teach a child,(I do admit it was long and I could of missed something) just what the child needs to know. Give me pg 7 of the common core says..

It was brought up about algebra being taught to younger kids...well why not? If the kids can't learn it then it will be obvious on the testing that all the kids are not understanding it, but if just one or two children understand it (so cool) they can move on to the next topic? Yes/No?

I guess that is what I would like to see in this discussion. Tell me on what page what part of the standards you don't like and why. Show me what I missed when I read through this thing.


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## Nate_in_IN (Apr 5, 2013)

gweny said:


> Younger children are the most impressionable. Do you at least agree with that? Because of that fact I do believe that a kindergarten teacher can make a difference that lasts a lifetime... Much longer than 12 measly years!
> As the first in a long line of teachers a kindergarten teacher sets the precedence. I did not say that the entire evaluation will be based on whether or not a student goes to college. It was one example of many statistics I believe should be monitored. Not the only, or even most important mark of success.
> It is however a mark of a successful educator if a higher percentage of their students continue their education.
> The success of our economy is dependent on our ability to compete in a global market. Our ability to compete in todays global market requires a highly educated workforce. Therefore it is in everyone's best interest to facilitate and encourage kids to go to college.
> As noted in another post I made in this thread, the numbers would only be compared to other educators in the same grade and/or subject. Your statistics would only be compared to the statistics of other kindergarten teachers at a national level. Also as previously noted this is a reward system. These numbers would be merely one facet of a system used to reward the best and encourage the rest.


This is one of the reasons I dislike Federal dollars going toward public school. Everybody wants to put their wants in the distribution scheme. This then creates a single pre-determined plan for success. It eliminates individuality and entrepreneurship.

I think it would be much better to let individual parents access the value they see going into their child's education. Children are different. There is no one size fits all with them. How about providing clear and equal comparisons to parents and letting them shop for the teacher that best fits the bill?

I'm not against the DOE setting standard levels of achievement for each grade level. I'm also not against them specifying how to assess a students skill level. This gives an apples to apples comparison. The government went too far in tying monetary gain to those items. That should be for the consumer (the parents and student) to determine. Take vehicles as an analogy. The government should specify how a vehicles MPG should be determined; but they should not say "if you get x mpg your car is worth $y". The last part should be determined by the consumer.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

glenn amolenaar said:


> LisaInN.Idaho,
> I posted the link so people can look up another article about C/C! I did not post it for the STUPID remark about men/women. Why try to point the thread to a different direction. This is why I do not post often.


It wasn't the remark that was stupid it was the source. You have to consider the source. Why would anyone who disagreed with her stance on equal pay give full consideration to her opinions on CC? If you take things so personally, you are probably best off not posting frequently in GC. Or you could put me on ignore since I seem to upset you so much.


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## tnfamily (Mar 23, 2014)

If people really want to know why so many of us are against CC please go to Facebook and look for Inappropriate Common Core Lessons.


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## 36376 (Jan 24, 2009)

gweny said:


> Use that 70 billion to reward successful teachers with significant pay increases. Teachers should be graded on multiple points and standards. The teachers reviews should include parent and student feedback, standardized testing, reviews from the next years teacher and principle, and statistical analysis of prior students (how many go to college, start a business, drop out etc.)
> 
> I also think the reviews should be public knowledge.


Wow, if we do that to our teachers, why can't we do that to the idiots in Washington who push this mess on us? Really, how many go to college? Not every kid is college material and is ready or mature enough to handle the college environment.


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## glenn amolenaar (Mar 3, 2007)

tnfamily said:


> If people really want to know why so many of us are against CC please go to Facebook and look for Inappropriate Common Core Lessons.


tnfamily,
I don't use Facebook I will look it up thanks for the tip.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

I do not have Facebook either.

Did a very quick search. Yah, their are work book pages that are teaching stuff that I don't agree with, but that is the publisher or the teacher making up the assignments that is the problem. Then problem then lies on the teachers or the district that buys the materials not the standards that they are to follow. 

Here is a what I can find of the .doc for Iowa common core..
P { margin-bottom: 0in; direction: ltr; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); widows: 2; orphans: 2; }P.western { font-family: "Arial",sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; font-weight: bold; }P.cjk { font-family: "Times New Roman",serif; font-size: 11pt; font-weight: bold; }P.ctl { font-family: "Arial",sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; }A:visited { color: rgb(128, 0, 128); }A.western:visited { }A.cjk:visited { }A.ctl:visited { }A:link { color: rgb(0, 0, 255); } 

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]The Standards define what all students are expected to know and be able to do, not how teachers should teach. For instance, the use of play with young children is not specified by the Standards, but it is welcome as a valuable activity in its own right and as a way to help students meet the expectations in this document. Furthermore, while the Standards make references to some particular forms of content, including mythology, foundational U.S. documents, and Shakespeare, they do notâindeed, cannotâenumerate all or even most of the content that students should learn. The Standards must therefore be complemented by a well-developed, content-rich curriculum consistent with the expectations laid out in this document. [/FONT] 
 



[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]While the Standards focus on what is most essential, they do not describe all that can or should be taught. A great deal is left to the discretion of teachers and curriculum developers. The aim of the Standards is to articulate the fundamentals, not to set out an exhaustive list or a set of restrictions that limits what can be taught beyond what is specified herein.[/FONT]
 



[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]The Standards do not define the nature of advanced work for students who meet the Standards prior to the end of high school. For those students, advanced work in such areas as literature, composition, language, and journalism should be available. This work should provide the next logical step up from the college and career readiness baseline established here.[/FONT]
 



[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]The Standards set grade-specific standards but do not define the intervention methods or materials necessary to support students who are well below or well above grade-level expectations. No set of grade-specific standards can fully reflect the great variety in abilities, needs, learning rates, and achievement levels of students in any given classroom. However, the Standards do provide clear signposts along the[/FONT]
 https://www.educateiowa.gov/pk-12/iowa-core/iowa-core-literacy-standards


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## Lookin4GoodLife (Oct 14, 2013)

Carmen Renee said:


> Really, how many go to college? Not every kid is college material and is ready or mature enough to handle the college environment.


By God, maybe if the "system" worked EVERY kid would be "college material" and would be ready and mature enough to handle the college environment! Why should the transition from 11th grade to 12th grade be any different than the 12th grade to freshman year other than mommy not holding your hand? We can't base our educational system on "maybe some are good enough and maybe some are not".


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

Carmen Renee said:


> Wow, if we do that to our teachers, why can't we do that to the idiots in Washington who push this mess on us? Really, how many go to college? Not every kid is college material and is ready or mature enough to handle the college environment.


I liked your post because I absolutely agree that politicians should be publicly reviewed; especially judges and cabinet members that are not voted for by the public.


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## Nate_in_IN (Apr 5, 2013)

Lookin4GoodLife said:


> By God, maybe if the "system" worked EVERY kid would be "college material" and would be ready and mature enough to handle the college environment! Why should the transition from 11th grade to 12th grade be any different than the 12th grade to freshman year other than mommy not holding your hand? We can't base our educational system on "maybe some are good enough and maybe some are not".


Do you think high school and college have the same goals? For me they are two totally different things.


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## glenn amolenaar (Mar 3, 2007)

Ziptie said:


> I guess after reading this, I think finally figured out why I don't understand why people don't like this common core. I have read the standards, but things like this article bug me. Statements like this..
> 
> "introduces frivolous and illogical teaching techniques to no apparent purpose, while imposing new standards that are not meaningful improvements"
> 
> ...


The fed's cant even run the USA, the state and local government knows more about family values. The main problem with C/C it is about control of the people, look at the mess with the health care. Look at the way the elected do not care about this once Great Nation.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Lookin4GoodLife said:


> By God, maybe if the "system" worked EVERY kid would be "college material" and would be ready and mature enough to handle the college environment! Why should the transition from 11th grade to 12th grade be any different than the 12th grade to freshman year other than mommy not holding your hand? We can't base our educational system on "maybe some are good enough and maybe some are not".


Not every kid should go to college and that has nothing to do with the "system". My younger son would be absolutely miserable in college. Nor does attending college fit with his career plan. Not every career requires a college degree so for DS #2 to attend college would be a complete waste of both money and time. The "system" worked just fine for him and helped him discover the career path he wants to follow. BTW, being mature enough to handle the college environment has more to do with how the kid was parented than with how they were educated.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Knock knock. Who's there? Common Core..

Open the door for:

Education
The Socialist Party recognizes the right of students of all ages to a free, quality education in a safe and supportive environment, and of all school employees to good wages, benefits, and working conditions â¢	We call for full and equal funding of public education; for the restoration of a comprehensive K-12 curriculum, including art, music, world languages, and physical education; for an end to all public funding of private schools; and for free tuition and full-time teachers with full benefits (not "adjuncts") at the post-secondary level.
â¢	We demand equal access to higher
education for all people and support publicly funded higher education.
â¢	We call for the forgiveness of all outstanding federal student loans and believe that students should not be saddled with decades of debt simply because they pursue higher education.
â¢	We support public child care starting from infancy, and public education starting at age three, with caregivers and teachers of young children receiving training, wages, and benefits comparable to that of teachers at every other level of the educational system.
â¢	We oppose merit pay for teachers, standardized testing, competition between schools within the same district, the sale of on-campus advertising in order to raise funds, and the increasing dependence of post-secondary institutions on corporate funding.
â¢	We call for an egalitarian educational system with teaching methods that accommodate the wide range of teaching and learning styles, and that provides all students with the means to obtain the post-secondary education they desire. We call a maximum of 15 students per teacher for grades K-12, and a maximum of 50 students per teacher at the post-secondary level.
â¢	We call for vigorous affirmative action programs so that the faculty and student-body of all schools reflect the community at large in terms of race/ethnicity, gender, and economic background. We support multicultural, multilingual, experimental education at all levels.
â¢	We support student, parent, and teacher control of curriculum formation, and in the hiring and dismissal procedures of school personnel, through the formation of local school/community committees.
â¢	We call for student representation on school boards, and for those boards to be fully accountable to students, parents, teachers, and school workers.
â¢	We call for opportunities for lifelong self-education, with retraining programs and transitional financial support for workers displaced by technological advances.
â¢	We support full and unrestricted health education programs, including sex education, with curriculum input from parents, students, teachers, and health care professionals.
â¢	We oppose school-sponsored prayer or any other religious practice in public schools, and all efforts to limit the teaching of evolution or to combine it with non-scientific theories.â¢	We call for free and open access to information, including the public ownership of all large databases.

http://socialistparty-usa.net/platform.html


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Knock knock. Who's there? Common Core..
> 
> Open the door for:
> 
> ...


And none of that has anything to do with Common Core.


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## Cookie2 (Feb 21, 2014)

SLFarmMI said:


> And none of that has anything to do with Common Core.


The statement above is untrue.

A Socialist party platform, and I'll add - a Progressive platform, indicates a desire to force public education to become federally controlled when it is clear that public education was left to be a state and regional issue.

Yes, it is in my child's best interest and the interests of everyone in this country to not have national standardization in the public school system. It should be left up to parents and the local community to judge if their schools are doing a good job.

What standard do I dislike in Common Core? All of them. I dislike the entire concept of nationalizing public school education. The Department of Education should be eliminated immediately. Since its inception public education in this country has only gotten worse and while spending has only grown out of control. The Department of Education is a failed experiment and we need to wake up and end the insanity.


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## TerriLynn (Oct 10, 2009)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not every kid should go to college and that has nothing to do with the "system". My younger son would be absolutely miserable in college. Nor does attending college fit with his career plan. Not every career requires a college degree so for DS #2 to attend college would be a complete waste of both money and time. The "system" worked just fine for him and helped him discover the career path he wants to follow. BTW, being mature enough to handle the college environment has more to do with how the kid was parented than with how they were educated.


I agree wholeheartedly that not every kid should go to college!! I have 5 kids and my oldest is going on to further his education but is going to a trade school, for diesel mechanics. I have to say there wasn't a lot of support or encouragement from the school to take this route. He has always struggled with reading and writing (learning disability) but he is mechanically inclined like you wouldn't believe.....he can fix or build just about anything.

The thing that really bothered me is he was required in high school to take Algebra 2 as a requirement for graduation.....I talked to many men whose career was a diesel mechanic and they told me over and over again he would never use it. He failed algebra 2 and had to take it as a summer school course. There were several English classes he was required to take to graduate as well, one was writing essays and another was writing short stories....he failed one as a junior and took it as a summer school class to make it up.

The other English course he was failing and I ended up going in to talk to his teacher....who by the way was very helpful...I told him he has already been accepted to a trade school, but if he doesn't graduate he cant go, I don't care if he gets a 60% he just needs to pass. 

He will be able to make a good living repairing agricultural equipment (that is what he is specializing in) he will never write stories, or essays. He wont need it for his college, he reads well enough to navigate through life, manuals, contracts, etc, and can write well enough to fill out resumes, and job reports. Unfortunately he never got a special education label, he always worked too hard to fit in so people wouldn't realize that these things were hard for him. But the result of it is that he absolutely hates school, hates to read and hates to write.

I really wish we would bring back apprenticeships where a person can learn a trade on the job....I realize that there are some but I wish it were a much more common option, especially for the kids that struggle in school. And for the record just because a kid does struggle in school doesn't mean that they aren't smart as all get out, that's why I have such an issue with one size fits all standardized testing......is because in a lot of cases it really does a poor job of measuring what each individual knows.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Has it occurred to you that not every kid WANTS to go to college? Should they not have the right to that decision?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> And none of that has anything to do with Common Core.


You don't get it at all. It is about central planning and central control.

Find the things in the socialist education platform that aren't espoused by all the Democrats and many of the Republicans.

Bigger schools, more administrators, more tests, more money, more rules and regulations, more everything and our education system continues to fall behind other countries. 

Most public school students today could not pass this 8th grade test today. I laugh at Common Core & No Child Left Behind. I cry for our children's future.

http://www.bullittcountyhistory.com/bchistory/schoolexam1912.html


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

ErinP said:


> Has it occurred to you that not every kid WANTS to go to college? Should they not have the right to that decision?


We would be light years ahead if Washington bureaucrats and the Northeast elites realized that.

Look at the apprenticeship programs in Germany. We are a country filled with dummies.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

HDRider said:


> We would be light years ahead if Washington bureaucrats and the Northeast elites realized that.



Which is LookingGood4Life? 
A Washington bureaucrat or a northeast elite?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

ErinP said:


> Which is LookingGood4Life?
> A Washington bureaucrat or a northeast elite?


I should have added, "and for those greatly influenced by them.".


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

Carmen Renee said:


> Wow, if we do that to our teachers, why can't we do that to the idiots in Washington who push this mess on us? Really, how many go to college? Not every kid is college material and is ready or mature enough to handle the college environment.


Mature enough to go to college ?? Are kidding me ?? I was almost 19 when I was graduated from high school (late birthday - had to wait until the following year to start school in whatever state in which we lived at the time) and when I was a senior in high school I couldn't wait to get out of class each day after lunch - so I could go work TWO jobs. And not because I had to - because I wasn't one to sit and listen to the drivel being crammed down my throat in college prep classes. I tried college - MANY times - (even as an 30 year old adult) and OMG I wanted to be a part of the real world .... Not put it off for another 4+ years whilst drinking on daddy's dime !! 

After 12+ years of gov't education I fail to see how anyone can come of with a diploma and be unable to sit for another 4 yrs of gov't propaganda ... Unless they have "matured" early.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> You don't get it at all. It is about central planning and central control.
> 
> Find the things in the socialist education platform that aren't espoused by all the Democrats and many of the Republicans.
> 
> ...


We will have to agree to disagree. I know exactly what Common Core is and is not. I've read every single page of the Common Core standards so I know what they say and what they don't. You are the one who seems to be choosing to see the boogeyman around every corner on this topic. We absolutely need to standardize the requirements across state lines. Part of my job used to be to evaluate students who come to our district from other states. I've had students who have come from other states and they are missing some very important knowledge because their state taught those topics at a later grade than ours. They are then automatically behind their age peers in their new state and they have to then try to learn the topics they missed as well as try to learn the topics their peers already have the foundation for. 

BTW, I've seen that test you posted many times before and, if you look at the questions, you will find that almost all of the them are basic memorization type questions. It isn't the wonderful example of an 8th grade test that you seem to think it is. We ask kids now to analyze, synthesize, evaluate, etc. which are all higher level thinking skills than those that are on that test. I would certainly not like to go back to a time when all we asked children to do was to regurgitate memorized facts.


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## manfred (Dec 21, 2005)

Here in Okla there was a rule that 3rd graders needed to be able to read to go on to 4th grade.
Sounded good until the kids in the big cities could not read. 
They just changed the law so they could pass them along.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> We will have to agree to disagree. I know exactly what Common Core is and is not. I've read every single page of the Common Core standards so I know what they say and what they don't. You are the one who seems to be choosing to see the boogeyman around every corner on this topic. We absolutely need to standardize the requirements across state lines. Part of my job used to be to evaluate students who come to our district from other states. I've had students who have come from other states and they are missing some very important knowledge because their state taught those topics at a later grade than ours. They are then automatically behind their age peers in their new state and they have to then try to learn the topics they missed as well as try to learn the topics their peers already have the foundation for.
> 
> BTW, I've seen that test you posted many times before and, if you look at the questions, you will find that almost all of the them are basic memorization type questions. It isn't the wonderful example of an 8th grade test that you seem to think it is. We ask kids now to analyze, synthesize, evaluate, etc. which are all higher level thinking skills than those that are on that test. I would certainly not like to go back to a time when all we asked children to do was to regurgitate memorized facts.


So you contend that education today is superior to the education given at the time of that test being written?

Fundamentally I do not believe in centralization for education or many subjects of governing.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

State rights


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> So you contend that education today is superior to the education given at the time of that test being written?
> 
> Fundamentally I do not believe in centralization for education or many subjects of governing.


I contend that they are vastly different and seek to develop two very different types of learners. When you ask rote memorization questions (who, what, when, where type questions) like the majority of the questions on that test, you seek to develop students who are great at stating facts. When you ask higher order questions (the why, explain, compare, synthesize, evaluate) type questions, you seek to develop the deep thinkers who understand the concepts behind the questions who can then make the leap to generating new ideas. The trick is to strike the proper balance between the two types of questioning. Not as easy as it sounds. I have done a lot of reading about the history of education and have read many things like the test you posted. We do a much better job currently at asking higher order questions than we used to. I further contend that we do a much better job currently at striving to educate all children than when that test was written. If you were a child of color, a child of poverty or a child with special needs back then, too bad for you. 

So, since you don't believe in centralization of education, you are saying that you are ok with it if the curriculum standards of, Arkansas for example, are substantially lower than, let's say South Carolina. I believe we need a basic level of consistency of standards across state lines and Common Core is a step in that direction. Should everything in education be centralized? No, not at all but some things should be. Is CC perfect? No, not at all and I do have several concerns and believe they need a rewrite in many areas but the idea behind CC is sound.


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## Nate_in_IN (Apr 5, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> We absolutely need to standardize the requirements across state lines. Part of my job used to be to evaluate students who come to our district from other states. I've had students who have come from other states and they are missing some very important knowledge because their state taught those topics at a later grade than ours. They are then automatically behind their age peers in their new state and they have to then try to learn the topics they missed as well as try to learn the topics their peers already have the foundation for.


You haven't sold this very well. Can you explain why all states must teach the same subject matter at the same level?

Using your example the kids transferring into your school are not behind the others they have just learned things in a different order. Unless you are suggesting that the other state had a lesser curriculum than yours. In either case it's a matter of opinion and why should everyone be forced to confirm to your states way of doing it?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Communities often have different needs and relevant observations that make the educational process smoothly and logical for students in that school. 

Relating skill sets to material and knowledge already an everyday use for a child makes building on easier.

In Alaska math and science explored while referencing hunting and fishing works.

Math is used to know when the tides are in or out yet each beach has it's own math formula from a major beach. This is an every day live deal for us so kids who can relate algebra to the tides seem to grasp the math better. 

Now, using tides in Kansas will not have the same impact. Some of the rote info that is dismissed with 
Common core is very import and us just a building block to be tapped for greater development in future years.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> I contend that they are vastly different and seek to develop two very different types of learners. When you ask rote memorization questions (who, what, when, where type questions) like the majority of the questions on that test, you seek to develop students who are great at stating facts. When you ask higher order questions (the why, explain, compare, synthesize, evaluate) type questions, you seek to develop the deep thinkers who understand the concepts behind the questions who can then make the leap to generating new ideas. The trick is to strike the proper balance between the two types of questioning. Not as easy as it sounds. I have done a lot of reading about the history of education and have read many things like the test you posted. We do a much better job currently at asking higher order questions than we used to. I further contend that we do a much better job currently at striving to educate all children than when that test was written. If you were a child of color, a child of poverty or a child with special needs back then, too bad for you.
> 
> So, since you don't believe in centralization of education, you are saying that you are ok with it if the curriculum standards of, Arkansas for example, are substantially lower than, let's say South Carolina. I believe we need a basic level of consistency of standards across state lines and Common Core is a step in that direction. Should everything in education be centralized? No, not at all but some things should be. Is CC perfect? No, not at all and I do have several concerns and believe they need a rewrite in many areas but the idea behind CC is sound.


So you believe today's high school graduates have better critical thinking skills than times past?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Today's education is driving toward the lowest common denominator striving for a homogeneity over a focus on basic learning while teaching conformity with an eye for politicization of history.

But I am not a trained educator, just a consumer of the product of modern education methods. Maybe we are better served by experts that have taken us to the heights of global education, strong civics involvement and worker productivity. Or not.

According to:
http://www.greatschools.org/students/academic-skills/1075-u-s-students-compare.gs


Students in the United States performed near the middle of the pack. On average 16 other industrialized countries scored above the United States in science, and 23 scored above us in math. The reading scores for the United States had to be tossed due to a printing error.

Experts noted that the United States' scores remained about the same in math between 2003 and 2006, the two most recent years the test &#8212; the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) &#8212; was given. Meanwhile, many other nations, *Estonia and Poland *being two, improved their scores and *moved past the U.S*.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

And http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading says


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

http://www.neha.org/pdf/JEH/columns/JEH3.11_MgED_World_Rankings_of_the_U.S_Education_NEHA.pdf


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## Lookin4GoodLife (Oct 14, 2013)

I never said every kid should go to college. I said every kid should be "college material" meaning they should be ready and prepared for it if they so choose.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

EVERY kid??
How on earth do you see _that_ happening?


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## TerriLynn (Oct 10, 2009)

Lookin4GoodLife said:


> I never said every kid should go to college. I said every kid should be "college material" meaning they should be ready and prepared for it if they so choose.


I'm sorry but this statement just seems so out of touch with reality to me. If your goal is to make every kid "college material" we need to go into the schools and start sorting out and dividing every kid into groups based on what kind of learner they are.

Right now in our public school systems they teach basically one way, and the kids that can learn in that way are golden. The kids that can't learn that way are SOL. The ones that struggle in school and have a good support system at home have a chance, but there are too many kids that fall through the cracks for many reasons. 

Way too many times by the time a kid gets to high school they are either college bound or irrelevant, sad to say, but the counselors, teachers and principal all struck me as having an attitude of not taking a trade school seriously. I had too many of them make the same exact statement to me when I told them he wanted to be a diesel mechanic......"well if that's what he wants to do" with a very derogatory tone.

I wish someone would let them know that his trade school costs less than half of a traditional college, and he will most likely out earn most 4 year college grads.


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## Lookin4GoodLife (Oct 14, 2013)

Never mind.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lookin4GoodLife said:


> Never mind.


Don't you see? So mamy want everyone to be equal. People by nature are not equal. We are all born with different resources, strengths, weaknesses, desires, talents and abilities.

We are driving to an overall lower average in our education system when we hold back the exceptional, and create rage in those that just can't be what we want them to be, no matter how hard they try, or how much we want them to be "like us".


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

ErinP said:


> EVERY kid??
> How on earth do you see _that_ happening?


By getting rid of the liberal agenda!

Maybe teachers will all see the light & look again at common core. Their union is.

http://joemiller.us/2014/07/teacher...il&utm_term=0_065b6c381c-982debbd9e-230980529


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Don't you see? So mamy want everyone to be equal. People by nature are not equal. We are all born with different resources, strengths, weaknesses, desires, talents and abilities.
> 
> We are driving to an overall lower average in our education system when we hold back the exceptional, and create rage in those that just can't be what we want them to be, no matter how hard they try, or how much we want them to be "like us".


My interpretation of "college material" is that we should be teaching ALL kids correctly & enuf so they they have the life skills & intelligence, the LACK of ignorance to BE "college material", NOT that every kid should GO to college.
Big dif.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Tricky Grama said:


> By getting rid of the liberal agenda!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You think this means *every* kid will then be college material??


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

It still seems as if the Common Core problems are not a result of the actual testing but of the freedom allowing interpretation as to what is taught. That the inherent political correctness (or lack of it) in the educational system is running away with reality. And the noise being currently made by the biggist teacher's union leaders is the result of the result of their feeling a loss of their control rather than anything else.
There are serious problems that need addressing. The teachers unions tend to act in ways that perpetuate the problems. Local control works for those schools where the community insists on results.
So what to do about those poor kids stuck in school districts where the community doesn't care or can't get it together enough to be effective? If their community won't act, then they are practically doomed to a lifetime of never getting ahead.


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## Kasota (Nov 25, 2013)

We can't do for every community what they will not do for themselves. I don't want to sacrifice local control because some other community somewhere else isn't willing to do the hard work. Adding rules regulations and government standards won't solve problems because all of that and a cup of coffee is not going to create parental involvement and local/community standards of excellence.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Kasota said:


> We can't do for every community what they will not do for themselves. I don't want to sacrifice local control because some other community somewhere else isn't willing to do the hard work. Adding rules regulations and government standards won't solve problems because all of that and a cup of coffee is not going to create parental involvement and local/community standards of excellence.


Of course that is true but out in those less involved communities are some kids, that if given a chance, will run with it and make a good, independent life for themselves. I don't consider doing what is possible as excessive. It is the best chance they have, and since a good education costs the same as a bad one, it is reasonable to set minimum standards that even the bad ones have to meet.
I don't think that parental involvement is the critical factor. That idea is based on my parents not being much involved in school work, which I think was typical for children at that time. Or in my progress or lack of it. The only time my parents went to school was if I was in real trouble or at the annual school open house. 
Parental involvement was my mom seeing we were ready and waiting for the bus or whatever, which may be a challenge for some parents. But maybe if that was the only requirement to be fulfilled, then at least that would be more likely to be achieved.
No, even though I attended 14 different schools by the time I graduated HS, my parents relied on the school itself to see that I learned what was appropriate. I attended good schools and bad, depending on location, had remarkable teachers and really, really bad teachers, all with different ways of getting there but all tested and evaluated. The thing they had in common was that they managed to graduate the majority of children with the ability to read, write, do arithmatic, have some idea of history of the US and civics, etc.
How could they do that then, with frankly no better parenting than now, when they can't now?


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

So many posts (mostly by one person) have generally equated common core with No Child Left Behind (to which I add "and none advance onward"). The logic being that you have no basis for complaint because you didn't complain already. Soup Nazi logic.

If there is a general "one-ness" or "same-ness"'...or equivalency, then, no, you shouldn't be ranting now. But certainly those critical thinkers can work their way to understand that if Y replaces X, then Y is not X. 

So clearly there must be differences. What are they? Is geometry still geometry? Are we still reading literature? Or is that getting replaced with "information"? Will we still have teachers, or mindless facilitators?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I would submit that Common Core might not be the real problem with education. I would suggest the rise of powerful teachers unions is the reason education suffers.


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## Kasota (Nov 25, 2013)

I think parental involvement takes many forms. Not all parents go to school board meetings or attend every school function. But there is in some families and in some communities a culture where doing your homework is both expected and valued. Behaving in class is expected. In other families and cultures - not so much. Hard work itself in some communities is valued and, again, in others not so much. 

My mom used to say, "Everyone has to work and have a job. Right now - your "job" is getting good grades. Make it happen." I don't recall her ever going to a school board meeting, but the family and community culture was such that learning (in school and out) was cultivated, valued and expected. Unless you had a learning disability (and my brother did) it was downright shameful to get poor grades. 

The other problem I have with national standards is this. For years we have seen a slide into feel-good education. We have witnessed the ever increasing meddling into areas that should be in scope for the family and out of scope for the school. I think this has has created confusion and a general deterioration in education that many people now want to fix with national standards. I don't think that is the answer because when you take things out of local control and give that power over to Federal officials you lose your ability to make changes on a local level. You lose the leverage needed to make change. You give up your power. It could be like trying to put Pandora back in the box. You lose the ability to stop such silly things as 5+5=11 provided you can give me a good reason why you gave that answer. You lose the ability to stop schools from teaching history that has been re-written. 

Whether or not some communities choose to make changes should be up to them. Again, I don't want to give up local control simply because some other communities don't want to do the hard work of ensuring their children are properly educated. 

And, yes, you can say this puts some children at a disadvantage because some communities will have higher standards. You can reasonably argue that this is not fair. And for the kids in the community that doesn't care you might be right. The truth is that life is not fair. There is a way that giving up local control simply enables people to not do the hard work in their own community. I don't want to give up local control so that others can happily sit back and do nothing. 

We have seen schools turn from a place where kids go to earn an education to a place where the school is expected to make sure kids get a diploma. Something is backward there and only individual families and local communities can change it.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Awnry Abe said:


> If there is a general "one-ness" or "same-ness"'...or equivalency, then, no, you shouldn't be ranting now. But certainly those critical thinkers can work their way to understand that if Y replaces X, then Y is not X.


I think you're extremely confused about something. Y is NOT replacing X. Common Core is not replacing NCLB. It is _in addition to_.

It's the same process, NCLB is merely the first step while CC is the second.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

ErinP said:


> You think this means *every* kid will then be college material??


Of course not!
But we DO have to get back to where we were b/4 we stopped teaching kids. 
Now for some reason, adults don't know who are 1st POTUS was, nor do they have any sense of geography, math, common sense.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

HDRider said:


> I would submit that Common Core might not be the real problem with education. I would suggest the rise of powerful teachers unions is the reason education suffers.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I think face time with teachers is the best choice for the best results here. But I also lived in Japan where the classes were very large indeed but the results excellent. 
I know that tenure can be a bad thing when it keeps poor teachers in place but a good thing when it keeps good but difficult teachers from getting railroaded out. 
I also went through 14 different schools in many different states as a child. I saw some of the worse places and some of the best. The best had one thing in common- they had a uniform plan and tested for goals. If a child did not meet the goals, something was done. And the interest of the teachers for their student's achieving those goals was very important. 
And frankly those goals were clear cut, basic and simple. And measurable. There might be options for studying other things but rote learning was done and measured first. Creativity for example was not a goal and I tend to think that people who tout it do so because it can't be measured and is easily confused for poor self discipline.
And I hate to say it as I am probably one of the worst people as to accepting authority but a certain level of authority in school children needs to be the goal of parents as well as teachers. It is less important who is right in every case when dealing with a 10 year old than they recognize that a 10 year old needs to learn to listen and deal with frustrations and difficulties- that the world does not revolve around their or their parents wants. If they don't ever question their own demands, they will lead a frustrated and maybe violent life.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

ErinP said:


> I think you're extremely confused about something. Y is NOT replacing X. Common Core is not replacing NCLB. It is _in addition to_.
> 
> It's the same process, NCLB is merely the first step while CC is the second.


Well, thanks for un-confusing me, then. If CC _is in addition to NCLB_, then what is being added? I can't imagine that the school bell will ring later in the day, so certainly something is getting replaced. (Unless they are finally realizing what a total waste of a day that school is, and have found a way under CC to make more of it. That would be a welcome change--er--addition.)

I don't care what word you choose to use. What is different/added/whatever about common core? Is the curriculum consistent at grade levels? (e.g. algebra taught in Jr. High, etc). If my kid is struggling with a concept, and I equip him with an alternate way of solving the problem, will that alternate way be accepted? But... I'd like to get back to the OPs original query, because I think her intentions were genuine and the question has merit. How about if it were asked like this:

What is so good about Common Core?

Jump right in, and I'll start asking questions, if I have any.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Awnry Abe said:


> What is so good about Common Core?
> 
> Jump right in, and I'll start asking questions, if I have any.


The one thing is the demand for minimal testing and evaluation nationwide. All the debate seems to be about what the actual goals should be and that is a good thing to discuss.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> If CC is in addition to NCLB, then what is being added?


Both are expansive pieces of legislation. Start here--

NCLB: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act
CC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Core_State_Standards_Initiative


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Tricky Grama said:


> Of course not!
> But we DO have to get back to where we were b/4 we stopped teaching kids.


When did this wonderous Utopia exist, exactly? 

Undoubtedly it was in the years before Johnson's War on Poverty education stuff like the ESEA came out, right? But then surely it was AFTER Brown vs. Board of Ed., so that we're making sure that kids actually have equal _access_ to education. But, that's only 11 years... And I'm having trouble believing that education was at some sort of pinnacle, but only between the years of '54 and '65.
Was it before '54? Not only was education for Black kids pretty mediocre or worse, _by law_, but Indian kids were still being forcibly taken to boarding schools. 


Or are we only talking about white, middle class kids, ala Norman Rockwell, before '65? Because maybe _their_ education was OK... 
And really, if we're going to be doing this kind of selective plucking of what is "good," we can still do that today!


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

ErinP said:


> When did this wonderous Utopia exist, exactly?
> 
> Undoubtedly it was in the years before Johnson's War on Poverty education stuff like the ESEA came out, right? But then surely it was AFTER Brown vs. Board of Ed., so that we're making sure that kids actually have equal _access_ to education. But, that's only 11 years... And I'm having trouble believing that education was at some sort of pinnacle, but only between the years of '54 and '65.
> Was it before '54? Not only was education for Black kids pretty mediocre or worse, _by law_, but Indian kids were still being forcibly taken to boarding schools.
> ...


All good issues, but you have muddled the "who" of education with the "what". With NCLB/CC, I see a serious "what" problem.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

ErinP said:


> Both are expansive pieces of legislation. Start here--
> 
> NCLB: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act
> CC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Core_State_Standards_Initiative


So do you not know yourself? If you had to sit across the table from me in an engaged conversation and convince me to support those expansive pieces of legislation are, could you?

The wiki pages, by the way, use a whole lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing. Such is the case with things like expansive pieces of legislation.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

What are you _talking_ about?? 
I don't support either one. :shrug: (have you actually read this thread??)


And of course I know what's in both. I wouldn't be involved in a conversation about a topic unless I knew what I was talking about.
You said YOU don't know what's in them, so I gave you a basic source for each. (though why you couldn't have done your own Googling, I'm not entirely sure...)


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

ErinP said:


> When did this wonderous Utopia exist, exactly?
> 
> Undoubtedly it was in the years before Johnson's War on Poverty education stuff like the ESEA came out, right? But then surely it was AFTER Brown vs. Board of Ed., so that we're making sure that kids actually have equal _access_ to education. But, that's only 11 years... And I'm having trouble believing that education was at some sort of pinnacle, but only between the years of '54 and '65.
> Was it before '54? Not only was education for Black kids pretty mediocre or worse, _by law_, but Indian kids were still being forcibly taken to boarding schools.
> ...


It would seem that if education was successful for white middle class children only (which is a dubious assumption), then the goal would be to figure out why it worked and apply those ideas universally rather than say that its successes are to be ignored because they weren't universal.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

I take it this means _you_ don't know when/where this educational Utopian model we're striving for existed, either.


You folks who keep longing for those golden days of yore, if you could fill us all in on when or where that was, that would be great!


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

where I want to said:


> It would seem that if education was successful for white middle class children only (which is a dubious assumption), then the goal would be to figure out why it worked and apply those ideas universally rather than say that its successes are to be ignored because they weren't universal.


Yep simple,direct, and true. If blood transfusions worked well on females try it on men. If the prior education work on one group apply it to more groups. Kids are kids use a proven method.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

ErinP said:


> I take it this means _you_ don't know when/where this educational Utopian model we're striving for existed, either.
> 
> 
> You folks who keep longing for those golden days of yore, if you could fill us all in on when or where that was, that would be great!


No it does not mean that. It seems to be your argument that if an idea is successful in some cases only, the whole idea is a failure when the problem might be that the successful ideas were simply not applied by the unsuccessful. That does not mean that the ideas themselves were faulty.

I personally did experience a great educational system- in California in the 1950s and 1960s. In several different districts. Complete with testing and standards. Of course at some point it was decided that, rather than using those tests and standards raise the level in all schools through addressing the localized problems, there were no failing schools, just too high standards. That was certainly an easier solution than fixing the problem- just expect no more than the worse schools managed anyway. A self fulfilling theory of education.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Where-I think you hit the nail on the head...maybe we're all suffering from 'Oh, those rowdy teenagers', or 'that's not how we did it in the good ol' days'.
But I know those who graduated from my parochial H.S. in the 50s, 60s & 70s got a great education. More went to college-and graduated- than the national average, I'd bet that is still the case but I don't know the stats from earlier or later. 

Funny thing, too, we had standard tests, if you didn't make it...you didn't go to the next grade. And there were 61 kids in my 4th grade class. And NONE of the nuns used rulers!


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

kasilofhome said:


> Yep simple,direct, and true. If blood transfusions worked well on females try it on men. If the prior education work on one group apply it to more groups. Kids are kids use a proven method.


Unfortunately, we already know for a fact that that's not true. Middle class white kids tend to have a _lot_ of parental support and involvement ensuring their success. That doesn't translate across all socio-economic lines...
And considering the entire purpose of public education, that of being able to effectively educate as many kids as possible, this is obviously going to be problematic.



where I want to said:


> I personally did experience a great educational system- in California in the 1950s and 1960s. In several different districts. Complete with testing and standards. Of course at some point it was decided that, rather than using those tests and standards raise the level in all schools through addressing the localized problems, there were no failing schools, just too high standards. That was certainly an easier solution than fixing the problem- just expect no more than the worse schools managed anyway. A self fulfilling theory of education.


Ah hah. We're getting somewhere. (BTW, just so there's no further confusion, I'm not _making_ an argument. I'm still trying to figure out what model everyone is going for, first)

So, we have established California in the 50s and 60s as a paragon of educational virtue. I assume everyone who graduated in this time frame will agree? Or at least most people?
(Though I find it a little confusing that some of the biggest, modern, educational reform came _out_ of California, from people who would have been graduating in that era. Why would they want to reform something that was so ideal??)

So, were teachers in charge of their individual curricula? Or was this something determined by the district (or state)? What's the protocol for atypical learners?


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

ErinP said:


> Unfortunately, we already know for a fact that that's not true. Middle class white kids tend to have a _lot_ of parental support and involvement ensuring their success. That doesn't translate across all socio-economic lines...
> And considering the entire purpose of public education, that of being able to effectively educate as many kids as possible, this is obviously going to be problematic.
> 
> 
> ...


If you standard of success is that everyone succeeds, then there is no possiblity of success. 
The teachers were not in charge of the all curricula as I did attend several schools where the transition was pretty seamless, although this was for basics such as reading comprehension ( but not writing) , math,science, civics, etc. The individual schools varied as to other things.
And I suspect that the rise of unions, civil rights movements and huge increases in budgets terminated the interest in basic skills leading to a lot of experimentation with various theories, pursuit of indivdual teacher choice and a reluctance to test when that lead to unequal results.
There were then some budget crunches, typical in this state, that eliminated things that were "unnecessary" such as testing and reasearch to develop better programs. 
Anyway when I came back to the state in the 1980s, free lunches for all children, universal testing , school nurses, easy availability of summer school to make up for problems, new buildings, etc all had disappeared. To be replaced by chronic complaints about everything. 
The worse school I attended was in Hawaii, where the whole class spent the entire year making paper mache figures while the teacer read at her desk. No one noticed as I suspect, with no testing, even a massive failure was not a red flag.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> If you standard of success is that everyone succeeds, then there is no possiblity of success.


But this is the entire _purpose_ of public education.... If you want something different, more rigorous, etc, people have long been expected to send their kids to private schools, hire tutors, homeschool and so on. In this case, the optional choices are older than the institution. 

Public education is schooling created to ensure the best education possible _for the masses_. :shrug:


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

ErinP said:


> Unfortunately, we already know for a fact that that's not true. Middle class white kids tend to have a _lot_ of parental support and involvement ensuring their success. That doesn't translate across all socio-economic lines...
> And considering the entire purpose of public education, that of being able to effectively educate as many kids as possible, this is obviously going to be problematic.
> 
> 
> ...


I was in a program that I started in the 3rd grade. 
My teacher was given carte blanch as to her curriculum. By the time we hit Jr. High, we were doing high school algebra, calculus, statistical analysis.....college level courses. Loved that program! Just saying! The program was stopped because it made the school district look like fools, they still are! I had to finish my education in private schools because I wasn't being challenged in public schools.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

ErinP said:


> But this is the entire _purpose_ of public education.... If you want something different, more rigorous, etc, people have long been expected to send their kids to private schools, hire tutors, homeschool and so on. In this case, the optional choices are older than the institution.
> 
> Public education is schooling created to ensure the best education possible _for the masses_. :shrug:


The fix the problem, not the success.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

JeffreyD said:


> I was in a program that I started in the 3rd grade.
> My teacher was given carte blanch as to her curriculum. By the time we hit Jr. High, we were doing high school algebra, calculus, statistical analysis.....college level courses. Loved that program! Just saying! The program was stopped because it made the school district look like fools, they still are! I had to finish my education in private schools because I wasn't being challenged in public schools.


Wouldn't it have been great if the success of the one teacher was examined to see if it have something to teach the whole school? Not every student is going to be a genius or even adapt to school but most can reach their potential with care.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

JeffreyD said:


> I was in a program that I started in the 3rd grade.
> My teacher was given carte blanch as to her curriculum. By the time we hit Jr. High, we were doing high school algebra, calculus, statistical analysis.....college level courses. Loved that program! Just saying! The program was stopped because it made the school district look like fools, they still are! I had to finish my education in private schools because I wasn't being challenged in public schools.


Actually, it's far more likely that they lost their gifted program for the same reason MOST schools no longer have a gifted program--budget cuts. We beat the Russians to the moon, we "won" the Cold War, there's no longer a push to develop genius anymore. 



where I want to said:


> The fix the problem, not the success.


OK. 
And how would you propose doing that, exactly? 
Start with a definition--what is "the problem?"

(Has it occurred to you that that's the point of ANY education reform? Whether it works as desired or not, that's _always_ the intention)


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Erin.... Jeff never mentioned gifted students that post sorta mention gifted teachers (in today world ) ......who are currently reaching and successfully teaching children. Many persons getting a paycheck for teaching seem to be failing and stay in teaching protected by unions......blaming everything but themselves.


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## Kasota (Nov 25, 2013)

I'm not convinced socio-economic differences are the problem. Throwing money at education has not helped. When you look at cost per child to educate kids in this country it is now more than it costs for tuition at many colleges. 

A year ago I saw a documentary on what a couple charter schools have done in Louisiana after Katrina hit. Delightful. Amazing. Wonderful standards. A culture where it was simply expected that these kids would not just pass on to the next grade. They were expected to be better than that. They were expected to make progress in catching up on where they should be for their grade level. There was not a lot of money for that school and they didn't have the latest and greatest everything. What they did have was a culture where education was valued, cultivated and expected. 

I grew up so poor we didn't have two nickles to rub together. Learning was valued, cultivated and expected in my home and in my community. Just because someone comes from a lower socio-economic family doesn't mean that children don't succeed. They do succeed when success in education is valued and when the children are challenged to be more than they thought they could be. 

When I first bought my farm my son was transferred from a suburban school with a fair amount of money and resources to a very rural school that didn't have as much money. The families were economically strapped in many ways. I thought he was doing wonderful in school before. In the old school he was always at the top of his class in math, for example. When he went to the new school they told me he was two grade levels behind where their kids were. The math teacher there spent many afternoons after school tutoring him to get him up to speed. 

It wasn't a matter of economic class. The old school had dummied down their expectations so that most kids would appear to be doing much better than they really were so that the teachers could "prove" their schools were getting higher scores. 

Local control made all the difference in the world. If you teach "to average" you will get "average" and over time "average" will decline. If you teach to excellence every student benefits because they will do better than they would have done had the focus been on "average." It wasn't a government standard that made a difference. Both schools were under the same state standards. It was the commitment, control and impact the community had on a local level that meant their kids were learning at a much higher level than other kids were in a different district that had a whole lot more money than they did.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Kasota, there's a difference between anecdotes and statistics. For that matter, the plural of anecdote is not "data." 
Statistics disagree with your anecdotes. :shrug: Statistically speaking, kids in lower socio-economic strata have less involved parents, for a myriad of reasons. They also have far fewer opportunities outside of their school day to challenge and enrich their educations.



kasilofhome said:


> Erin.... Jeff never mentioned gifted students that post sorta mention gifted teachers (in today world ) ......who are currently reaching and successfully teaching children. Many persons getting a paycheck for teaching seem to be failing and stay in teaching protected by unions......blaming everything but themselves.


Umm...yeah. If a kid is doing _calculus_ in junior high, they're gifted. He didn't have to use the _term_. It's just a given.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

No...the whole class of one teacher given the chance to be free to teach....how she wanted.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Some teachers are better ...used to be though teacher used the same books certain teacher had class room filled with success and in the next room over a different teacher would have a hight rate of failures. The students were divided by person schedules not skills.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

ErinP said:


> Actually, it's far more likely that they lost their gifted program for the same reason MOST schools no longer have a gifted program--budget cuts. We beat the Russians to the moon, we "won" the Cold War, there's no longer a push to develop genius anymore.
> 
> 
> OK.
> ...


The first thing you need to solve any large problem is data. Which meams uniform testing to see where everyone is relative to others. In otherwords the same test.
Then you look at what the test tells you, especially over time. For instance, if students have a problem reading a certain paragraph and responding with information from that paragraph, then, if most students have the ability to do that and you don't, that is a heavy priority for your school. 
Then hopefully you also have data to check about which schools have had a problem but improved with each year the test is given. Then you ask those schools how they achieved that, select the procedures that seem best to you and apply them despite teacher/parent/student objections. The point is to know where the deficiency is and do something rather than assign blame outside the school and consequently do nothing but get worse.
If you don't have parental participation, then you find a way around that. If you focus on the problem itself rather than focassing on why you can't, you will at least make some progress. I can't remember my parents ever intervening my school work. The only reason I know that my mom ever knew about the paper mache teacher is that sometime after that she mentioned that this teacher was pretty bad. I still was stuck there.
But I suspect that your goal in posting is to dismiss everything that does not fit your belief. I think if your belief is that things can't be improved unless you get what you can't get, there is nothing more to say.


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## Kasota (Nov 25, 2013)

Erin, I do understand the difference between an anecdote, data and statistics. Trust me. I used to teach genetics and I have a science degree.  However, in the course of conversation there is a place and a reason for people to use an illustration to explain a point of view, which was what I was doing in case you didn't catch that. 

My point of view is that giving up local control to government agencies isn't always the answer. The illustration was to bullet point the fact that economic status is not the only or even the most important factor in whether or not children are well-educated. 

For what it's worth, relevant statistics would require comparable data which would require control groups, something notoriously difficult to do with human beings over long time-lines. 

To be clear, I am not against having standards at all. I just prefer the control of those standards to be in the hands of the local community because the bigger the government agency the less control people have to effect change in their own neighborhood. 

I suppose I trust my neighbors more than I trust federal level agencies and teacher's unions. 

Just sayin'


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Kasota said:


> My point of view is that giving up local control to government agencies isn't always the answer. The illustration was to bullet point the fact that economic status is not the only or even the most important factor in whether or not children are well-educated.


Of course not. But the facts still remain that it IS a huge predictor of student success. Statistically speaking. 



> To be clear, I am not against having standards at all. I just prefer the control of those standards to be in the hands of the local community because the bigger the government agency the less control people have to effect change in their own neighborhood.


:shrug:
I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that I support Common Core. Is anyone actually reading in this thread anymore?? 



where I want to said:


> The first thing you need to solve any large problem is data. Which meams uniform testing to see where everyone is relative to others. In otherwords the same test.
> Then you look at what the test tells you, especially over time. For instance, if students have a problem reading a certain paragraph and responding with information from that paragraph, then, if most students have the ability to do that and you don't, that is a heavy priority for your school.
> Then hopefully you also have data to check about which schools have had a problem but improved with each year the test is given. Then you ask those schools how they achieved that, select the procedures that seem best to you and apply them despite teacher/parent/student objections. The point is to know where the deficiency is and do something rather than assign blame outside the school and consequently do nothing but get worse.



*chuckle*

Do you realize you're making the arguments FOR both NCLB _and_ Common Core?


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

kasilofhome said:


> No...the whole class of one teacher given the chance to be free to teach....how she wanted.


And this is how _all_ homeschools run. 
Yet even still, most junior high-ers are NOT doing calculus.


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## Kasota (Nov 25, 2013)

> Of course not. But the facts still remain that it IS a huge predictor of student success. Statistically speaking


. 

Again, I have to get back to why that would be. Is it because of economics? Is it because of attitude? If one believes it is about money then money should fix it. But it doesn't. If it is about attitude then the people in that community have to fix their attitude. Or is it about something else? Correlation doesn't prove a causative relationship. 




> I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that I support Common Core. Is anyone actually reading in this thread anymore?


I didn't say anything about what you support or not. I was simply clarifying the fact that I am not against standards but want control to be local. It had nothing to do with you.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

ErinP said:


> But this is the entire _purpose_ of public education.... If you want something different, more rigorous, etc, people have long been expected to send their kids to private schools, hire tutors, homeschool and so on. In this case, the optional choices are older than the institution.
> 
> Public education is schooling created to ensure the best education possible _for the masses_. :shrug:


This is where YOUR argument falls apart right along with the failings of public education. 

There is always those that fail. Trying to weigh down those that succeed with the failures drags down the average. 

You can blame failure on a multitude of factors and they all may be good reasons for failure. But failure will always exist no matter the system. 

The argument in my mind is one of the monolithic versus the local solution. I vote local every time. 

Big is bad in my mind. Bigger is badder.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

ErinP said:


> Kasota, there's a difference between anecdotes and statistics. For that matter, the plural of anecdote is not "data."
> Statistics disagree with your anecdotes. :shrug: Statistically speaking, kids in lower socio-economic strata have less involved parents, for a myriad of reasons. They also have far fewer opportunities outside of their school day to challenge and enrich their educations.
> 
> 
> ...


I have an anecdote for you. 

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

ErinP said:


> Of course not.
> Do you realize you're making the arguments FOR both NCLB _and_ Common Core?


In part I am. That is my point so I'm glad, despite the snarky remark, you noticed.
What I think would work best is for a nationwide standard testing of basic skills such as reading and math but not socially manipulative mandates. In otherwords creating data for the school to use about individual students that is similar nationwide and whether the school is teaching those basic needs accurately. Testing that a student can read an ordinary paragraph and pull out the relevant information is not the same thing as mandating that they spout back only an acceptible propaganda. That is why I said that testing is one thing but using that test to bully teachers to teach only an agenda to get the status is totally wrong. And typical of the rigid dogma of so many 'experts.'


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## TerriLynn (Oct 10, 2009)

Just the observation of one mom here.......My kids go to a good school, I have 5 kids in this school system (4 now, 1 just graduated). When we started there the class sizes were small. First grade had 15 kids with 1 teacher, there were 3 first grade classrooms and they all shared an aide.

Fast forward about 10 years, the first grade classrooms now have 25-26 kids, the 3rd-5th grades now have 30 kids in each classroom. They are very hesitant about adding teachers, but the amount of administrators has more than doubled, I'd say almost tripled. They justify the need for administrators because they need them to deal with the increasing amount of federal and state rules, regulations, funding issues, etc.

Administrators make WAY more money than teachers do. Also I might add so do bureaucrats, you know those folks at the state and federal level that keep adding new rules and regulations to justify the fact that they are collecting a paycheck.

Yes there are some bad teachers that are protected by their unions, but most of them are doing the best they can. But they are increasingly being asked to do more and more with less and less. To me Common Core is nothing more than a Band-Aid attempt to fix the problem....problem is they are coming at this from the wrong angle. The system itself is the problem, there isn't any common sense anymore.

Its a one sized fits all system, its a round hole and if your a square peg...too bad. If your a busy kid (ADHD) you get some attention, if your quiet and struggle and fly underneath the radar...to bad for you. I hate to say it, but its not about educating kids anymore....its about numbers, and statistics, and standardized tests, and how can we manipulate these to get the most federal and state dollars.

My kids attend a public school and this is what I see. I am involved, I work with them at home, if there are issues I am talking to teachers and principals. My kids will be Ok, its those kids who's parents are too busy just surviving life....those are the kids who are getting the short end of the stick.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

where I want to said:


> In part I am. That is my point so I'm glad, despite the snarky remark, you noticed.
> What I think would work best is for a nationwide standard testing of basic skills such as reading and math but not socially manipulative mandates. In otherwords creating data for the school to use about individual students that is similar nationwide and whether the school is teaching those basic needs accurately. Testing that a student can read an ordinary paragraph and pull out the relevant information is not the same thing as mandating that they spout back only an acceptible propaganda. That is why I said that testing is one thing but using that test to bully teachers to teach only an agenda to get the status is totally wrong. And typical of the rigid dogma of so many 'experts.'


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Tricky Grama said:


> Where-I think you hit the nail on the head...maybe we're all suffering from 'Oh, those rowdy teenagers', or 'that's not how we did it in the good ol' days'.
> But I know those who graduated from my parochial H.S. in the 50s, 60s & 70s got a great education. More went to college-and graduated- than the national average, I'd bet that is still the case but I don't know the stats from earlier or later.
> 
> Funny thing, too, we had standard tests, if you didn't make it...you didn't go to the next grade. And there were 61 kids in my 4th grade class. And NONE of the nuns used rulers!


Ok, talking about cutting FUNDING...the nuns got NO salaries, our school was POOR. We didn't have a lot of the equipment that the public school had...but we turned out far SCHMARDER kids!

Why is that?


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> Ok, talking about cutting FUNDING...the nuns got NO salaries, our school was POOR. We didn't have a lot of the equipment that the public school had...but we turned out far SCHMARDER kids!
> 
> Why is that?


Fear of nuns, followedby fear of nuns talking to parents........


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

where I want to said:


> Fear of nuns, followedby fear of nuns talking to parents........


Ha. No, really.
Not ONE nun hit any kid. Not one. They didn't raise their voice, even.

Well, Sr. Georgina did in 8th grade. Yelled a couple times. We were pretty awful most of that year.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Interesting...prolly few h.s. grads could do this...

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...e-4-year-olds-applying-to-nycs-elite-schools/


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

kasilofhome said:


> No...the whole class of one teacher given the chance to be free to teach....how she wanted.


Well, your both right! Mrs Soneya was given a class of 20 students that had achieved high scores on aptitude tests to see how both would react in a different school environment. I was lucky enough to be one of those students. The heart of her program was....communication! We were very grateful for the experience. All day Friday was art day!!!!!!! If someone was having an issue with a subject, we were encouraged to help them out! We had experimental work books that we could actually write in/on, so our results could be examined. I was in this program for 5 years, we all were put back in regular classes. It's embarrassing that I failed basic 9th grade math because I was board to death with the regular curriculum and didn't care any more, even though it was really easy. The best class i ever had ( besides shop) was consumer math! Mr Murphy taught us how to do taxes, work a cash register, time cards, things that were actually useful in life. last year and a half I went to a private college prep school, loved it. The biggest problem I found through all of this was.... not every student can work at the same pace as everyone else. The small class size combined with active communication and a teacher who really cared, made a huge difference. I always wondered if they did the same thing with under performing students.

Eta: I never liked the term "gifted". That is what the program was called and it carried a certain stigma along with it. That may have been part of the reasons why we excelled!!!


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

Kasota said:


> To be clear, I am not against having standards at all. I just prefer the control of those standards to be in the hands of the local community because the bigger the government agency the less control people have to effect change in their own neighborhood.
> 
> I suppose I trust my neighbors more than I trust federal level agencies and teacher's unions.
> 
> Just sayin'



What is to happen when the community/parents don't care or have the basic understanding what the levels should be? 

I have seen/meet parents..all that matters is the child's grade not that they actually learned something.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

So. Ziptie. This thread has had quite a run.

Tell us. What is so wrong with Common Core?

If you feel energetic, and want, tell us what is wrong with the American education system.

Objectively synthesize the statements offered in these many posts. Summarize for us.


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## Kasota (Nov 25, 2013)

> What is to happen when the community/parents don't care or have the basic understanding what the levels should be?
> 
> I have seen/meet parents..all that matters is the child's grade not that they actually learned something.


That's a good question. Long and short, if the parents and the community do not care then some kids will fail. 

What to do about that? How do we mitigate? I would rather see standards set at a state level than at a federal one. That might be part of an answer. It gives a broad enough base of people so that we would have (hopefully) enough people willing to step up to the plate without giving up control to a federal level agency. 

I know there are some really good teachers out there in the public school system. I've worked with them. Some are my friends. There is also an incredible amount of waste in the same system. There is at least to some degree an institutional entitlement attitude as well as "we know better than the parents do" among a lot of educators. There is an incredible amount of power in the teacher's union that I don't think necessarily works to the betterment of our education system. As often as not it can be detrimental. There is a lot of back-scratching that goes on between teacher's union officials and the state politicians over salary and benefit negotiations. 

Vouchers may be a very good alternative. Let parents vote with their voucher dollars. Or simply develop a plan to dismantle the system as we know it and start over. Open it up to bids from independent educational companies. Right now we have a system where the teacher's unions have an incredible amount of power. It would take time to develop and there would certainly be a transition period, but I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts that education could be better and less expensive if it were out of the hands of the Department of Education and administered by private companies bidding for the contract. That might be one possibility.


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## Nate_in_IN (Apr 5, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Tell us. What is so wrong with Common Core?


I know you didn't ask me but it's such a straight forward question I wanted to give my answer.



> States were given an incentive to adopt the Common Core Standards through the possibility of competitive federal Race to the Top grants.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Core_State_Standards_Initiative


That part right there is why I dislike Common Core. I'm all for providing information to parents. As a parent I appreciate the Federal Government publishing information as to what skills children should have at various grade levels. I can use that information to determine the best way to educate my children. I can use it to make suggestions to the school board, to teachers, or to decide which school district to relocate to.

What I don't like if for Federal Government to provide _monetary_ incentive to the States in order to encourage them to adopt the national standard. Pressure for schools to perform should come from the numbers of students and parents who are attending them.

Since you asked such a succinct question I will try to provide an equally terse answer. Government providing information is good, Government having control is bad. Common Core went too far and stepped into the having control side.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

HDRider said:


> So. Ziptie. This thread has had quite a run.
> 
> Tell us. What is so wrong with Common Core?
> 
> ...


It is amazing this thread has had quite a run..I thinks it shows how many people are passionate about our childern's education. :rock:

When I asked this question I was truly looking for a discussion about common core. I was leaning toward thinking it's good. I still am. Don't think it is a perfect solution but I think putting some national benchmarks is fine. Some of the benchmarks are high and it's going to make the kids stretch..to me that is a good thing.

I am not interested in listing all the different statements made. People on the opposite side brought up some good points and made me go out and do some additional research...Some times I don't know what I don't know. 

One thing that I have learned on this board is that most people are already entrenched in their decision and no amount of "facts",data,graphs,examples,or statistics is going to change their minds.


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