# COSTCO mask policy to require shoppers with medical conditions to wear face shields



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Costco updating coronavirus mask policy to require shoppers with medical conditions to wear face shields


Costco Wholesale Club, one of the first retailers to mandate shoppers wear masks amid the COVID-19 pandemic, is updating its face mask policy Nov. 16.



amp.usatoday.com





Starting Monday, Nov. 16, the wholesale club says it will require all members, guests and employees to wear a face mask or face shield with the exception of children under 2.
"Members and guests must wear a face mask that covers their mouth and nose at all times," Costco said on its COVID-19 updates page. "Individuals who are unable to wear a face mask due to a medical condition must wear a face shield. ... Entry to Costco will be granted only to those wearing a face mask or face shield."


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

I'm pretty sure everyone here knows how everyone else feels about masks at this point.
Did this mandate change your mind?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

No it does not change mine. It does show what is happening in our world though. Information is always good to have.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

Good, I hope other places upgrade their efforts all things considered at this time.

I recentlÿ went to the Dr. and from what I saw there was 100 percent compliance, amazing!
Along with a temperature check at the door, masks were available to anyone who needed one.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

We do not have a mask mandate in my county, but every week , I hear about more businesses mandating masking up before entering. Most are providing them if you don't have one.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

doozie said:


> Good, I hope other places upgrade their efforts all things considered at this time.
> 
> I recentlÿ went to the Dr. and from what I saw there was 100 percent compliance, amazing!
> Along with a temperature check at the door, masks were available to anyone who needed one.


So a sick person with high temperature is not admitted into the doctors office ?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The doctors here have separate entrances and waiting areas for folks with elevated temperature or other Covid symptoms.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

doozie said:


> Good, I hope other places upgrade their efforts all things considered at this time.
> 
> I recentlÿ went to the Dr. and from what I saw there was 100 percent compliance, amazing!
> Along with a temperature check at the door, masks were available to anyone who needed one.


My doctor would house calls if I text him. For his office visits it's sit in the truck and wait to come in the office...


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Here they built a small buildings next to the clinic to check temps before you are allowed into the building . It use to be a tent. Anyone with a high temp s looked at there and given a covid test.


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## RobertDane (Feb 14, 2020)

Both my doctors are allowing video...or just phone talk exams.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Went to Costco a couple days ago. Very nice guy hands masks out at the door if you don't have one. Getting what I want to buy is a priority over wearing a mask for a half hour. I certainly don't want to die on this hill.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

Redlands Okie said:


> So a sick person with high temperature is not admitted into the doctors office ?


Precisely. My family doctor center does this, stops people at the door for temp checks. If you have a high temp they tell you to go to the Emergency room.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

I went to the doctor in 1988 
He said your very healthy
Haven't been back since


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Taking temps as a screening tool has a 50% false positive and 50% false negative rate of accuracy. They may as well just flip a coin-- heads you can enter; tails you can't.
More stupidity from "the experts."


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

At the rate the news is reporting new infections I figure the whole country has the covid by now.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

My doctors office is attached to the hospital building, they are even doing drive up lab blood draws if you desire not to enter the building.
My observation was 100 percent mask wearing compliance, if the hospital/dr office can achieve this without incident so can Costco, etc.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

There is no excuse for people not to wear masks when in public. What right do they have to risk infecting other people and spreading the virus?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

gilberte said:


> At the rate the news is reporting new infections I figure the whole country has the covid by now.


I am also concerned COVID will run out of victims before politicians find a new way to control the people. Yesterday we reported over 160,000 new cases and some experts say the real infection rate is 10X what we are finding through testing. For some reason back in April we were only finding 30,000 new cases a day and had a death rate around 2500 a day but now we are finding 5 times as many new cases a day but the daily death rate is only half what it was back then. I think Gov. Cuomo has concluded that the virus can only be caught between 10PM and 5 AM because that is the hours he is shutting things down.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

There is a word for when government enforces policies through collusion with private business.


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## RobertDane (Feb 14, 2020)

Farmerga said:


> There is a word for when government enforces policies through collusion with private business.


quid pro quo...And we know who to ask about that, don't we....?..


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

RobertDane said:


> quid pro quo...And we know who to ask about that, don't we....?..


Actually it is Fascism. But if you want to ask your preferred candidate about his experience in your answer, have at it. Someone needs to.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

fishhead said:


> There is no excuse for people not to wear masks when in public. What right do they have to risk infecting other people and spreading the virus?


What if they don't have it? They can't spread it.

Once again folks: *NO evidence masks do anything. *Healthcare workers, who have complete access to all the best PPE, have a rate of infection 12x higher than the general public. The only study published that addresses mask use shows that those infected wear masks no less than those who don;t wear masks..(in fact, people who got infected wore masks 74% of the time, while those not infected wore them 71% of the time.)


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

doc- said:


> What if they don't have it? They can't spread it.
> 
> Once again folks: *NO evidence masks do anything. *Healthcare workers, who have complete access to all the best PPE, have a rate of infection 12x higher than the general public. The only study published that addresses mask use shows that those infected wear masks no less than those who don;t wear masks..(in fact, people who got infected wore masks 74% of the time, while those not infected wore them 71% of the time.)


So you say. There are studies that don't agree with you.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)


CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




www.cdc.gov





*"Conclusions*
Experimental and epidemiological data support community masking to reduce the spread of SARS-CoV-2. The prevention benefit of masking is derived from the combination of source control and personal protection for the mask wearer. The relationship between source control and personal protection is likely complementary and possibly synergistic14, so that individual benefit increases with increasing community mask use. Further research is needed to expand the evidence base for the protective effect of cloth masks and in particular to identify the combinations of materials that maximize both their blocking and filtering effectiveness, as well as fit, comfort, durability, and consumer appeal. Adopting universal masking policies can help avert future lockdowns, especially if combined with other non-pharmaceutical interventions such as social distancing, hand hygiene, and adequate ventilation."


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

farmerga provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.
_www.farmerga.com_

I just found the CDC telling us that they provide credible information to be funny. Did anyone expect them to say that the CDC provides flawed and fraudulent health information?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

This repeat argument is so sad.

Anyone can post quotations.

The powers that be have exhausted any level of trust they once had.

I don’t CARE if you wear a mask or not. I chose what I do. You chose what YOU do.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

fishhead said:


> There is no excuse for people not to wear masks when in public. What right do they have to risk infecting other people and spreading the virus?


Are you completely sure about your statement and does your opinion trump medical advice? We all base our opinions on what we think we know and our own real world experiences. 

My friend will literally die if he takes your untrained opinion over his team of medical experts. His team of fully trained transplant specialists has clearly told him that he must never wear either, yet people like yourself seem to believe that if they they follow their doctor's advice they are science deniers and brazenly infecting others. 

My point is only that there are some who have legitimate excuses not to do what you feel is best for them and perhaps you should think about the advice you dispense.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

WR is exactly correct. 

You do you. I do me.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
> 
> 
> CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.
> ...


That paper is just a summary, so I can't comment on the credibility of the data.---But note that in the half dz studies mentioned, the rate of spread of the infection was reduced by about 70% in each study....

...Would you use a birth control pill that was only 70% effective? You could take your chances with that on a one night stand, but if you need it regularly, you'll get pregnant 3 out of every 10 attempts.

The bigger point here is that we're talking about an end point calculated to make the bureaucrats look good, not an end point that improves the situation in the long run.

If our goal is to slow the rate of spread, then we're winning...but if our goal is to halt the spread of the disease, then we need herd immunity. THAT is the purpose of developing a vaccine--not to protect each individual, but to protect the population as a whole....The longer we keep people from getting the infection, the longer they are at risk of getting it.

I guess you're one of the "pull the band aid off slowly" types. Fast or slow, either way you're going to rip off good tissue.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

EXCELLENT POST!

I will be borrowing your sentences. THANK YOU.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Slowing the spread is the goal and masks do that. Herd immunity by spreading the disease would result in millions of deaths in this country alone. Herd immunity in this global world is only achieved with the help of vaccines.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Millions of deaths? Really? 

Herd immunity was achieved in other epidemic situations before vaccines were invented.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Most transplant recipients are required to wear a mask in public and especially in crowds for the first year after the transplant, though crowds are not recommended. Especially heart and lung transplants. I would expect that the few that can't even wear a face shield have been told by their doctors that going out in public is not advisable at all and shopping in a Costco would be a no go situation.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

I don't give a rat's behind whether you wear a mask or not. They don't work very well. The reality is that the number of people who get coviod will continue to increase until most people have had it or been immunized, which ever comes first. Even then covid will always be with us and you will always be at risk of getting it unless they are able to wipe it out like they did with smallpox.

What I am taking away from this pandemic is that I really need to up my game as far as preps. The only certain way to avoid getting covid is to completely isolate. Avoid any contact with other people like going to the store for groceries. I am beginning to put away enough of everything so I could isolate for a year. Fortunantly this pandemic is not very fatal. When we have a pandemic with a 75% fatality rate, like Ebola, I won't be leaving my homestead.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Most transplant recipients are required to wear a mask in public and especially in crowds for the first year after the transplant, though crowds are not recommended. Especially heart and lung transplants. I would expect that the few that can't even wear a face shield have been told by their doctors that going out in public is not advisable at all and shopping in a Costco would be a no go situation.


As I've indicated many times, he's not a transplant recipient and your google research does not trump his highly trained team of specialists. Nobody should dispensing advice when they are not abreast of someone's medical condition, his requirements or have at least acheived the same level of education as the team of people advising him. Wouldn't you agree?

Ultimately, I'm not sure how you feel he can get supplies and survive but medical professionals do advocate that their patients eat food, get prescriptions filled, attend appointments, meet may requirements to remain on the transplant list and live their daily lives as richly as possible.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Costco delivers to your home and to your car. That should work. Prescriptions can get delivered as well.

If he is waiting for a transplant then it is also recommended not to go to places where you can catch viruses and such. Doctors' appointments are a completely different ball game and not usually in a Costco.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Costco delivers to your home and to your car. That should work. Prescriptions can get delivered as well.
> 
> If he is waiting for a transplant then it is also recommended not to go to places where you can catch viruses and such. Doctors' appointments are a completely different ball game and not usually in a Costco.


You are misinformed but I'd love to hear more about your medical degree.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I don't need to have a medical degree to have an opinion. I would be interested as to what kind of medical problem this person can't wear a face shield. The only ones I am aware of is the inability to be able to remove or put in on by yourself and children under a certain age. I know that masks are not recommended for people with breathing problems but face shields an acceptable substitute.

Either way, if your friend can't wear either then I expect he won't be in a Costco and will have to as them to deliver it.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Slowing the spread is the goal and masks do that. Herd immunity by spreading the disease would result in millions of deaths in this country alone. Herd immunity in this global world is only achieved with the help of vaccines.


Sorry, but you just don't get it.....

Slowing the spread means you will still get the infection eventually, and those who are destined to die from it will die from it eventually, regardless of when they get it.

Any infectious disease will continue to spread until it can't "find" someone to spread to-- that's herd immunity. Even then, it will still remain present to some degree in the population (endemic). Even The Plague has a certain level of presence in the population now...In all the History of Mankind, only one infectious disease (small pox) was ever wiped out completely, and that took a massive effort over the course of 40 yrs to accomplish, and it involved a bug that didn't mutate very fast at all.

Coronavirus class viruses mutate frequently. Our only real hope here is that like most infectious agents, it will mutate to less virulent forms over the years as it co-evolves with the human gene pool (Thinning the herd, as the saying goes.)

BTW- in regards that 70% effective BCP--does it make a difference if you get pregnant the first time, the 5th or the 9th time you try? It only takes one.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

doc- said:


> Sorry, but you just don't get it.....
> 
> Slowing the spread means you will still get the infection eventually, and those who are destined to die from it will die from it eventually, regardless of when they get it.
> 
> ...


No. Slowing down the spread means that you might never have to get it and if you do they will have better ways to treat you. Covid 19 already has a history that proves this.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

painterswife said:


> No. Slowing down the spread means that you might never have to get it and if you do they will have better ways to treat you. Covid 19 already has a history that proves this.


Simply wrong.

It will spread as long as it can spread...and we've been looking for a cure for the common cold or flu for 85 yrs now., so don't count on some miracle for this one.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Simply right. Vaccines and treatments. Treatments already have been proven to lessen the death rates. Vaccines in the works may do the same as they do for measles.

Just like HIV, now if you get it it is not a death sentance.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> No. Slowing down the spread means that you might never have to get it and if you do they will have better ways to treat you. Covid 19 already has a history that proves this.


So does the flu. Facts are not your strong suit.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> So does the flu. Facts are not your strong suit.


The death rate of the flu has decreased over time as well. Better treatments.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> I don't need to have a medical degree to have an opinion. I would be interested as to what kind of medical problem this person can't wear a face shield. The only ones I am aware of is the inability to be able to remove or put in on by yourself and children under a certain age. I know that masks are not recommended for people with breathing problems but face shields an acceptable substitute.
> 
> Either way, if your friend can't wear either then I expect he won't be in a Costco and will have to as them to deliver it.


It's really none of your business as to why his doctors have told him he puts his life in extreme peril if he does what you feel is best for him. Suffice to see an entire team of doctors have clearly explained their reasoning to him and he should follow their instructions carefully. 

In Canada, businesses have done a certain amount of research on human rights violations and learned it's illegal to force someone to disobey medical advice or deny people with disabilities the right to access essential services (which includes grocery stores and pharmacies) so he will still have access to the essential services he needs and will still be allowed to shop at COSTCO if he wants.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> It's really none of your business as to why his doctors have told him he puts his life in extreme peril if he does what you feel is best for him. Suffice to see an entire team of doctors have clearly explained their reasoning to him and he should follow their instructions carefully.
> 
> In Canada, businesses have done a certain amount of research on human rights violations and learned it's illegal to force someone to disobey medical advice or deny people with disabilities the right to access essential services (which includes grocery stores and pharmacies) so he will still have access to the essential services he needs and will still be allowed to shop at COSTCO if he wants.


It is none of my business but you brought it up here. It would be of interest to know what kind of medical condition would prevent someone from wearing a face shield and help to better educate me and others. Is he putting his life at extreme peril being around those with Covid? It seems likely that his condition is related to breathing if he can't wear a mask and Covid could seriously cause problems in that area.

No one is forcing anyone to disregard medical advice. This is a discussion.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Too bad that it isn’t a polite discussion.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> The death rate of the flu has decreased over time as well. Better treatments.


How effective is that flu vaccine? What about the millions that don't ever get the flu or the vaccine? Covid is a cold virus.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Covid 19 has already proven to be much more communicable than the flu and yes a vaccine might never be the ultimate answer. If a vaccine is not the answer then herd immunity will not be either. Then we only will have improved treatments to lower the death rate. That is something that comes with time.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The death rate is already very low.

sigh.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Costco is a private business on private property. Here in the US if they require you to sing the _Gilligan's Island_ theme song before allowing you to enter, it is their *RIGHT* to do so. Just like Walmart makes you pass through a metal detector to gain entry, it is their legal right.

If you don't agree with the private store policy you don't have to shop there.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

Years ago when DH and I both smoked, and people were wanting to shut smoking down, we would NOT go to a restaurant, or another place that did not allow smoking. If we walked in the door and they said no smoking we just left...there IS more than one restaurant at this end of the universe, more than one grocery store, more than one bar, etc.

Kinda like going to Hooter's and complaining about how the workers dress.

Mon


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

Nov. 10, 2020

Dear Costco Member,

Effective Nov. 16, 2020, we will require all members, guests and employees to wear a face mask or face shield at Costco locations. Entry to Costco will only be granted to those wearing a face mask or face shield. Children under the age of 2 are exempt.

Costco has had a face mask policy in effect since May 4, 2020, but members who could not wear a mask due to a medical condition were exempt. This is no longer the case. If a member has a medical condition that prevents them from wearing a mask, they must wear a face shield at Costco. 

This updated policy may seem inconvenient to some, however we believe the added safety is worth any inconvenience. Our goal is to continue to provide a safe shopping environment for our members and guests, and to provide a safe work environment for our employees.

Thank you for your cooperation and support.

Craig Jelinek
President and CEO
Costco Wholesale



https://www.costco.com/coronavirus.html



I suppose they might be willing to refund membership fees to those who can't wear face coverings? No lawsuits that way IMHO.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

JeffreyD said:


> How effective is that flu vaccine? What about the millions that don't ever get the flu or the vaccine? Covid is a cold virus.


You bring up an interesting point, and another example of how stupid the experts are-- they're warning us about how dangerous things will get now that flu season is drawing near...Let's do a little arithmetic.

The flu vaccine is only about 50% effective in preventing flu infection, and only about 25% of Americans take it, so only about 12% of all Americans benefit by it. Big deal.

Now, flu season runs the 20 weeks from mid Nov to mid Apr. Essentially all 10% who get the flu get it during that period. That pencils out to about 0.5% per week....CoV infection seems to be stable at this point at about 5%, so, over those 20 weeks of flu, 0.05/52 = 0.1% of people could be expected to contact CoV each week of the flu season. (We're assuming both flu and CoV infections last one week each. for easy arithmetic.)...That means the risk of contacting both flu and CoV in the same week is 0.005 x 0.001 = 0.000005, or 0.0005%-- about 5 in a million. BFD.

Putting fear in us keeps them in charge.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

YES!


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

doc- said:


> Simply wrong.
> 
> It will spread as long as it can spread...and we've been looking for a cure for the common cold or flu for 85 yrs now., so don't count on some miracle for this one.



Bingo. And it spreads masks or no masks. We see it over and over. For example, our local Walmart has 12 people on the night stocking crew. They are required to wear masks the whole shift. Currently 8 of the 12 are out with the COVID and the county health dept. says working at Walmart is the only connection to the cases. So obviously the masks did not prevent an infected person from giving it to others nor did it prevent healthy people from getting the virus. The only sure way to prevent getting it is to totally isolate yourself from others but even liberal governors have seen what that does.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

So slapping the paper mask on your face that you've been using since last March so you can go into the local Walmart will appease the Mask Police NS and keep the painterswives at bay?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

gilberte said:


> So slapping the paper mask on your face that you've been using since last March so you can go into the local Walmart will appease the Mask Police NS and keep the painterswives at bay?


Yes, because wearing it shows you care. It's all about appearances just like everything else these days. There is nothing grounded in substance now. If the government tells you to do something, you should not question them. As Dr. Fauci put it a couple days ago, "People should do what they're told". That is the way far too many people in government feel about everything now and very soon it will be enforced in every aspect of our lives. But, some people crave that.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Danaus29 said:


> Costco is a private business on private property. Here in the US if they require you to sing the _Gilligan's Island_ theme song before allowing you to enter, it is their *RIGHT* to do so. Just like Walmart makes you pass through a metal detector to gain entry, it is their legal right.
> 
> If you don't agree with the private store policy you don't have to shop there.


And I have absolutely no problem with that, if THAT is what is going on. If the government, that hasn't the authority to do X, simply strong arms private business to do what they can't? I have a BIG problem with that.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Having the federal government use any means needed to influence business and state governors to follow the feds desires is exactly what the incoming president has promised to do to the best of his ability.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

The one things masks definitely do is interfere with stores facial recognition systems. 

farmerga, I understand what you are getting at. I think the masks are stupid and offer little to no protection from anything as they are worn by the general public. 

I am very upset by Ohio's new requirement because no matter what you do, face masks fog glasses in cold weather. Many times my glasses fog up just from walking into a store. Add face mask fogging and glasses are absolutely useless until they warm up. I haven't figured out how I am going to handle that situation just yet. And if face masks worked, our numbers would not have increased 10x in a few weeks. They have been mandatory in Ohio since the CDC changed their mind about wearing them.


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## SpentPenny (Jun 11, 2020)

fishhead said:


> There is no excuse for people not to wear masks when in public. What right do they have to risk infecting other people and spreading the virus?


If you are afraid then stay inside at home. Do not expect me to alter my behavior to suit your fears. I have no trouble with folks staying home - there are many elderly or helth-challenged folks who should be very careful.. They need to take care of themselves but I will not alter my behavior because you are fearful.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

SpentPenny said:


> If you are afraid then stay inside at home. Do not expect me to alter my behavior to suit your fears. I have no trouble with folks staying home - there are many elderly or helth-challenged folks who should be very careful.. They need to take care of themselves but I will not alter my behavior because you are fearful.


You are wasting your time. The left wants compliance and not common sense.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

If the health and/or lives of the general population are at risk when they go out in public, by others who are not wearing a mask, then shouldn't the masked people just stay home?

If the health and/or lives of the general population are at risk when they go out in public, by others who are not wearing a mask, then shouldn't all businesses be closed down?

People need to feel safe right? And feel "essential"? And need to work and cash a paycheck?

Asking for a friend.


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

SpentPenny said:


> If you are afraid then stay inside at home. Do not expect me to alter my behavior to suit your fears. I have no trouble with folks staying home - there are many elderly or helth-challenged folks who should be very careful.. They need to take care of themselves but I will not alter my behavior because you are fearful.


LOL. Let me guess, you lean a bit to the right?
The party of family values with NO respect for their elders.
Lock them in their apartments all alone until it’s over? Or let “nature” take its course and weed out the old and weak?
Or everyone just compromise, barely at all really, to lessen the rates of infection on those who payed for and even built much of we take for granted.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

See, here is the thing, labeling folks by political and ideological slants kills your argument, because you can't start with the subject matter.
Then the extremes, exaggerations and the caricatures. But I'll bet you already know that.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> This repeat argument is so sad.
> 
> Anyone can post quotations.
> 
> ...


Does that include peeing in the pool?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

fireweed farm said:


> LOL. Let me guess, you lean a bit to the right?
> The party of family values with NO respect for their elders.
> Lock them in their apartments all alone until it’s over? Or let “nature” take its course and weed out the old and weak?
> Or everyone just compromise, barely at all really, to lessen the rates of infection on those who payed for and even built much of we take for granted.



No one is tying to lock anyone in. Everyone simply needs to practice what’s safe for them and their situation. Puzzles me how someone doing so should involve me, or if I am correctly wearing a mask available to the public and of of some type of actual effectiveness. All the so called mask effectiveness information I have found so far contains the words should, might, could, and other similar terms. By the way, I am not going out in public to signal to others that I care and want them to feel better mentally. I am out and about only as needed, to provide for those I need to. I assure you I practice what I need to so as to reduce the risk of getting sick. Sure cannot rely on others to do so from what I have seen of the mask fiasco. 



Where are you getting the information that mask will keep someone from getting sick ? With a link please, and hopefully it will contain some actual studies showing the effectiveness of the various masks and some data on the variety of ways they are worn. 


Remember the mask were not to stop the spread, it was to slow it down. Have you perhaps found information showing otherwise ?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

fishhead said:


> Does that include peeing in the pool?


Why not, thats what the chlorine is for. Thought everyone knew that.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

fireweed farm said:


> LOL. Let me guess, you lean a bit to the right?
> The party of family values with NO respect for their elders.
> Lock them in their apartments all alone until it’s over? Or let “nature” take its course and weed out the old and weak?
> Or everyone just compromise, barely at all really, to lessen the rates of infection on those who payed for and even built much of we take for granted.


No, let ME guess-- You lean to the Left, the Party of Authoritarian Rules based on need to maintain power, not what is best for everyone.

"Just go along, George. Just go along." -- Jerry Seinfeld in The Soup Nazi episode

One more time: masks & shutdowns don't lower the number of infections. They may or may not lower the rate of infections, but that just prolongs the time over which the susceptible remain in danger..

Epidemics spread like any other population growth dynamics. Wolves & deer? Deer (the infection) populations grow until the wolf population (immunity) grows enough in response to stop the deer population growth...Thenthe deer pop falls and the wolf pop follows..It swings back and forth for sevral cycles (like the waves in the epidemic) until a stable equilibrium is reached.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Slowing down the spread makes vaccines and treatments possible, therefore lowering the death rate. An important bit of information.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Slowing the spread also helps ease the burden on the medical community. That in itself is an important reason to wear a mask. Would you wear a mask if it helped our armed forces or police.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Is the medical community currently "burdened"?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

fireweed farm said:


> LOL. Let me guess, you lean a bit to the right?
> The party of family values with NO respect for their elders.
> Lock them in their apartments all alone until it’s over? Or let “nature” take its course and weed out the old and weak?
> Or everyone just compromise, barely at all really, to lessen the rates of infection on those who payed for and even built much of we take for granted.


I'm not disrespectful to my elders but it seems that most feel it's okay to lock our seniors down and let them die by failure to thrive, deal with feeling of abandonment and sanction their cognitive decline. 

We're already taking our elders for granted and grossly disrespecting their most important need. Their families.

It's hearbreaking when you walk into one of the dementia facilities and find seniors locked in their rooms for the greater part of their day, watch them being chased back to their rooms so they can sit with little to no stimulation, meal trays are delivered to their room and leftovers picked up later on. I can assure you nobody is making sure any of them are getting sufficient or proper nutrition. 

Do you think they feel like valued members of society?


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

“Slowing down the spread makes vaccines and treatments possible, therefore lowering the death rate. An important bit of information.”

I have seen very little evidence to support that “information.”


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> “Slowing down the spread makes vaccines and treatments possible, therefore lowering the death rate. An important bit of information.”
> 
> I have seen very little evidence to support that “information.”


You have not heard about the vaccines.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

painterswife said:


> *Slowing down the spread makes vaccines and treatments possible,* therefore lowering the death rate. An important bit of information.





Alice In TX/MO said:


> “Slowing down the spread makes vaccines and treatments possible, therefore lowering the death rate. An important bit of information.”
> 
> I have seen very little evidence to support that “information.”





painterswife said:


> You have not heard about the vaccines.


There is a problem here with your reasoning as posted. Well, that is unless you believe vaccines and treatments aren't possible without slowing down the spread.

Also, your last post seems to either be missing a question mark or you are telling Alice what she has or has not heard. Your choice.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> Slowing the spread also helps ease the burden on the medical community. That in itself is an important reason to wear a mask. Would you wear a mask if it helped our armed forces or police.


Basically a year into this virus issue. Still unprepared.......


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I have experience with valid, responsible vaccine trials. I do not believe the hype that is being reported about Covid vaccine trials. 

If someone wants to believe it, that is fine.


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## colourfastt (Nov 11, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Most transplant recipients are required to wear a mask in public and especially in crowds for the first year after the transplant, though crowds are not recommended. Especially heart and lung transplants. I would expect that the few that can't even wear a face shield have been told by their doctors that going out in public is not advisable at all and shopping in a Costco would be a no go situation.


Amen to that; I'm diabetic and worried enough about myself, but my best friend (who is 40) just had a liver transplant and I'm really concerned about his health during this and people who ignore basic precautions piss me off to no end—on top of the transplant he is already immunocompromised (AIDS) so the idiocy takes on another dimension.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Slowing down the spread makes vaccines and treatments possible, therefore lowering the death rate. An important bit of information.


It doesn't seem to be working here but I notice that our government also changed their recommendations on those homemade cloth masks that I have questioned for months. 

It seems the Canadian government feels the fabric masks agrees that the fabric masks are ineffective and now strongly recommend that if people insist upon wearing them, they need to put a filter between the layers of fabric.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

COVID-19: Canadian study finds mask mandates limit spread


Canadian researchers have found that wearing a mask can have a significant impact on the spread of COVID-19.



www.ophthalmologytimes.com





"Canadian researchers have found that wearing a mask can have a significant impact on the spread of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19).

The Investigators, from Simon Fraser University's Department of Economics, have determined that mask mandates are associated with a 25 percent or larger weekly reduction in COVID-19 cases.

In the US, the CDC has indicated that “wearing masks can help communities slow the spread of COVID-19 when worn consistently and correctly by a majority of people in public settings, and when masks are used along with other preventive measures, including social distancing, frequent handwashing, and cleaning and disinfecting.”


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

__





COVID-19 mask use: Advice for community settings - Canada.ca


This advice outlines when to wear a mask, what type of mask to choose, how to improve fit and other factors to consider when wearing a mask.




www.canada.ca





*Proper material, structure and fit*
Well-designed and well-fitting masks or face coverings can prevent the spread of your infectious respiratory droplets. They may also help protect you from the infectious respiratory droplets of others.

How well a mask or face covering works depends on the materials used, how the mask is made, and most importantly, how well it fits.

A mask or face covering can be homemade or purchased, and should:


be made of at least 3 layers
2 layers should be tightly woven material fabric, such as cotton or linen
the third (middle) layer should be a filter-type fabric, such as non-woven polypropylene fabric

be large enough to completely and comfortably cover the nose, mouth and chin without gaping
allow for easy breathing
fit securely to the head with ties or ear loops
be comfortable and not require frequent adjustments
be changed as soon as possible if damp or dirty
maintain its shape after washing and drying


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

colourfastt said:


> Amen to that; I'm diabetic and worried enough about myself, but my best friend (who is 40) just had a liver transplant and I'm really concerned about his health during this and people who ignore basic precautions piss me off to no end—on top of the transplant he is already immunocompromised (AIDS) so the idiocy takes on another dimension.


It sounds like your best friend would be the prime example of someone who should not be mixing in with the general public, at least right now.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Plain and simple, people will not wear and handle face masks correctly. This goes right along with the general public refusing to keep a 6 foot distance and washing their hands properly. NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

Face masks have been mandatory in Ohio for MONTHS, yet our daily case count continues to rise. Masks are mandatory in schools, yet covid is being spread in schools.

The ONLY thing that will stop or at least slow the spread is for SICK PEOPLE TO STAY *HOME*!!!!!

I have yet to read where ANY state has mandated a "stay home" order to sick people. I am aware that you can spread covid before having symptoms but every day you read about a super-spreader event where someone with mild symptoms infected whole groups of people.

Masks, as worn by the general public, DO NOT WORK.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Exactly.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

It would be great if everyone with Covid would stay home. The problem is that they just might not know they have it until they have already went to a wedding or a funeral or a night at the bar.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> Plain and simple, people will not wear and handle face masks correctly. This goes right along with the general public refusing to keep a 6 foot distance and washing their hands properly. NOT GONNA HAPPEN!
> 
> Face masks have been mandatory in Ohio for MONTHS, yet our daily case count continues to rise. Masks are mandatory in schools, yet covid is being spread in schools.
> 
> ...


Why is the Governor having to reimpose a mask mandate if everyone was already wearing them?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Now he is fining and closing businesses that don't enforce the mandate. But as I have said repeatedly about masks, "_as worn by the general public_". In most cases that means improperly or not at all. Unless a mask is glued to their faces, some people still will not wear them properly.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yes, masks are not always worn properly. However, if everyone that can, would wear one even badly there would be more protection than not wearing them at all. Just imagine the infection and death rates if no one wore them.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Just think of how many fewer cases and deaths we would have if sick people were required to stay home.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> Just think of how many fewer cases and deaths we would have if sick people were required to stay home.


They are supposed to stay home if they know they care sick. Wearing a mask all the time is to help with those that don't yet know they are sick.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

i got my doubts if the mask works but i wear one or i wouldn't get out at all except in my yard. there was an exemption for people with breathing problems and i think still is. couple days ago we were told to only go shopping once a week. i haven't seen anyone without a mask for months but the count is going up right now. some clusters here and there. ~Georgia


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> COVID-19: Canadian study finds mask mandates limit spread
> 
> 
> Canadian researchers have found that wearing a mask can have a significant impact on the spread of COVID-19.
> ...


Perhaps you failed to notice that I mentioned the Canadian government, not Simon Fraser University. 

SFU must be misinformed because Canadians have been wearing masks for some time now and cases are increasing substantially but I as I stated many times, the fabric masks do not function as people believe (unless there is a filter). If you actually checked the information I mentioned and Lisa posted, that filter makes a lot of sense. 

I know you are firm in your opinon of masks but perhaps you can advise why you feel that with mask use on the increase, we are seeing such steep increases in confirmed cases, unless of course, the orignal information was correct and the only safe mask is the N95.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> Perhaps you failed to notice that I mentioned the Canadian government, not Simon Fraser University.
> 
> SFU must be misinformed because Canadians have been wearing masks for some time now and cases are increasing substantially but I as I stated many times, the fabric masks do not function as people believe (unless there is a filter). If you actually checked the information I mentioned and Lisa posted, that filter makes a lot of sense.
> 
> I know you are firm in your opinon of masks but perhaps you can advise why you feel that with mask use on the increase, we are seeing such steep increases in confirmed cases, unless of course, the orignal information was correct and the only safe mask is the N95.


I missed nothing. My post and Lisa show that the Canadian goverment believes masks should be worn to reduce transmission of Covid.

Lisa poster her link shortly after mine so I did not add the link I was going to.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

[


painterswife said:


> I missed nothing. My post and Lisa show that the Canadian goverment believes masks should be worn to reduce transmission of Covid.


But not simple cloth masks and so many are hanging their hat on. 

I also notice you neglected to answer my question but really didn't expect you to You're focused on proving your own narrative.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Simple cotton masks of at least three layers. They are pretty clear about that and I see that widely disseminated online and on the news. I would still be happy with any mask but educating people about the need for three layers would be even better.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

painterswife said:


> They are supposed to stay home if they know they care sick. Wearing a mask all the time is to help with those that don't yet know they are sick.


Just like they are supposed to wear masks, wash their hands and keep their distance from others?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Here you go. 
National Academy of Sciences explores the flawed studies. 









Protective effect of mandatory face masks in the public—relevant variables with likely impact on outcome were not considered


Zhang et al. (1) conclude that wearing a face mask in public is the most effective means to prevent transmission. This conclusion is scientifically highly questionable. First, the number of epidemic-curve examples is small; an explanation of how they were chosen is lacking. Second, the...




www.pnas.org


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Simple cotton masks of at least three layers. They are pretty clear about that and I see that widely disseminated online and on the news. I would still be happy with any mask but educating people about the need for three layers would be even better.


Are you suggesting that you know something more than the Canadian government or you feel they are being overly cautious. 

I believe the original science based information was correct and the N95 masks are the only ones that truly offer protection from the virus.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I don't have to suggest anything. It is all in the link that Lisa provided. They want you to wear masks and they tell you what is acceptable.

"
*A mask or face covering can be homemade or purchased, and should:*


be made of at least 3 layers
2 layers should be tightly woven material fabric, such as cotton or linen
the third (middle) layer should be a filter-type fabric, such as non-woven polypropylene fabric

be large enough to completely and comfortably cover the nose, mouth and chin without gaping
allow for easy breathing
fit securely to the head with ties or ear loops
be comfortable and not require frequent adjustments
be changed as soon as possible if damp or dirty
maintain its shape after washing and drying"


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

wr said:


> Are you suggesting that you know something more than the Canadian government or you feel they are being overly cautious.
> 
> I believe the original science based information was correct and the N95 masks are the only ones that truly offer protection from the virus.


I'm not disagreeing with you, but simply clarifying. N95 provide the best protection for the wearer against becoming infected. Homemade cloth masks protect people other than the wearer by reducing the range of virus shed. It also provides a degree of protection for the wearer, in that it can also reduce the viral load at the time of infection, which seems to impact the intensity of the illness.

According to Health Canada, a homemade cloth mask with a filter layer offers "an extra layer of protection" by trapping the smaller infectious particles. So while the filter is better than simple cloth, it doesn't mean that simple cloth masks are worthless. The seems to be a "good, better, best" kind of situation, where N95 are what you want (if you can get them). 





__





COVID-19 mask use: Advice for community settings - Canada.ca


This advice outlines when to wear a mask, what type of mask to choose, how to improve fit and other factors to consider when wearing a mask.




www.canada.ca


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

That filter issue contradicts you couple layers of fabric and our government, just like yours suggests that mask wearing can, may or might slow the spread, which doesn't seem to be working. 

I have asked you a couple times for you opinion on the increase in mandatory masks and increase in infection rates but you keep responding with how important mask wearing is, which truly diminishes your message. 

If the only truly effective masks are as we were told in the beginning, misinformation may be killing more people than it's saving.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Asking people to wear masks does not mean they are. The conversations in this forum and just watching the news, shows that many are not. Even then you can't say that the number of infections is not impacted already from mask wearing and we would have even greater infection rates because of those that refuse to wear masks would wear them.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

The Paw said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you, but simply clarifying. N95 provide the best protection for the wearer against becoming infected. Homemade cloth masks protect people other than the wearer by reducing the range of virus shed. It also provides a degree of protection for the wearer, in that it can also reduce the viral load at the time of infection, which seems to impact the intensity of the illness.
> 
> According to Health Canada, a homemade cloth mask with a filter layer offers "an extra layer of protection" by trapping the smaller infectious particles. So while the filter is better than simple cloth, it doesn't mean that simple cloth masks are worthless. The seems to be a "good, better, best" kind of situation, where N95 are what you want (if you can get them).
> 
> ...


N95 also stands a much greater chance of preventing proection from either side. Filters help spread infection so why hang one's hat on something that doesn't seem to be working? 

Ironically, the more people we have wearing inefficient masks, the more infections we're seeing. Do you feel it's because people aren't being informed on how to wear them correctly or do you feel that people should be heading off to the hardware store and investing their money in something more effective? 

Calgary and Edmonton a mandatory mask bylaws and yet their numbers are climbing like crazy. I can't speak for Edmonton but Calgary seems well covered in homemade masks.

My mother is heading in for testing today because even with all those restrictions, he facility is now infected. You can't even breach the first set of doors without a mask and a temperature check before you breach the second doors so I'm fairly convinced that if we need masks, we need the right mask for the job.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

wr said:


> That filter issue contradicts you couple layers of fabric and our government, just like yours suggests that mask wearing can, may or might slow the spread, which doesn't seem to be working.
> 
> I have asked you a couple times for you opinion on the increase in mandatory masks and increase in infection rates but you keep responding with how important mask wearing is, which truly diminishes your message.
> 
> If the only truly effective masks are as we were told in the beginning, misinformation may be killing more people than it's saving.


You can't evaluate the efficacy of a mask based on the presence of a mask mandate. Type of mask is not the only variable. The degree of compliance, the presence of other restrictions on gathering sizes, the degree of travel can all cause cases to go up. These can offset some of the positive benefits of mask use. 

We just had a demonstration of 100 of those "Hugs Not Masks" lunatics here in Manitoba. They are going to generate cases quite independently of whether my mask has a filter or not. 

Try not to buy into the "all or nothing" fallacy. Agreed that N95 are the best level of protection. Don't agree that other kinds of masks have no benefit.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Asking people to wear masks does not mean they are. The conversations in this forum and just watching the news, shows that many are not. Even then you can't say that the number of infections is not impacted already from mask wearing and we would have even greater infection rates because of those that refuse to wear masks would wear them.


I'm not talking about asking. Most of Alberta is under mandatory mask laws so most of the major centers are obeying the law rather than face stiff fines. 

My community is still voluntary but we have less than 20 cases in the county and our numbers remain static and we're a farming community so we go to town about twice a month. 

You walk the streets of Calgary, Edmonton and other Alberta cities, you'll find complete compliance, with the exception of the odd person under doctor's orders and yet the numbers are rising quickly. 

Perhaps the wrong type of masks are lulling people into a false sense of security and they are neglecting social distancing or perhaps they aren't wearing them correctly or perhaps a couple layers of fabric just doesn't work very well.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

The Paw said:


> You can't evaluate the efficacy of a mask based on the presence of a mask mandate. Type of mask is not the only variable. The degree of compliance, the presence of other restrictions on gathering sizes, the degree of travel can all cause cases to go up. These can offset some of the positive benefits of mask use.
> 
> We just had a demonstration of 100 of those "Hugs Not Masks" lunatics here in Manitoba. They are going to generate cases quite independently of whether my mask has a filter or not.
> 
> Try not to buy into the "all or nothing" fallacy. Agreed that N95 are the best level of protection. Don't agree that other kinds of masks have no benefit.


I don't buy into the all or nothing theory. From what I've seen, Alberta is trying hard to lower the numbers and they seem to be increasing hard. 

From what I've seen, few people have any idea of how to wear a mask and even less have any idea of what works. The law says we they need to wear masks so they buy something cute off kijiji or their local buy & sell on Facebook and feel they've done everything they possibly can. 

Doing it right is more important to me than moral superiority.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Or they touch things and then rub their eyes.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I disagree. You don't have complete compliance. My niece in Edmonton and one of my best friends in Calgary both tell of people not wearing them and heading out of the city centers is even worse.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

It would be great if everyone wore N95 mask and wore them properly. But I will be satisfied if everyone would start with wearing any mask and then we can work towards the best masks and the proper way to wear them.

Arguing that because they are not the best or not worn properly should be addressed after we have everyone at least wearing a mask in the first place.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> It would be great if everyone wore N95 mask and wore them properly. But I will be satisfied if everyone would start with wearing any mask and then we can work towards the best masks and the proper way to wear them.
> 
> Arguing that because they are not the best or not worn properly should be addressed after we have everyone at least wearing a mask in the first place.


I think we're both entitled to our opinons and I respectfully disagree. If they aren't worn properly, they might as well be not wearing a mask at all and bad habits are harder to break than good habits.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

It is still not a good reason to argue that masks don't slow down the transmission of Covid. IMO


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

A couple points about masks:

Lab studies that that found the N95s block 95% of particles and the surgical masks block 70& are done with laminar air flow. The masks are actually better than that because air flow out in the real world is not laminar, but turbulent...Cf- it's easy to drop an 18 inch basketball thru a 36 inch basketball hoop from directly above it, but when you're shooting from 30ft away, it's hard to get "nothing but net."

In the only direct comparison study I know, N95s were compared with surgical masks on nurses working with influenza pts. Both were equal in efficacy in protecting the nurses....Neither was perfect.

...Did I mention that healthcare workers using all the best PPE & well trained in their use *still *have a CoViD incidence rate *12x* higher than the general public?

When you're in the middle of your prison break and the spot lights finally find you and you hide behind a rain barrel that covers you 95% and the guards launch a barrage of bullets with their Tommy Guns from atop the prison walls...What matters?...The 95% of bullets that hit the rain barrel, or the 5% that hit you?

And one more time--and I'm typing very slowly now so maybe it'll sink in--slowing the spread down means only that the susceptible will remain in danger longer. Remember that commercial-- "You can pay me now or you can pay me later."? ..

The infection isn't going to go away. It'll get you sooner or later. By waiting, we're just giving it more time to mutate.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

doc- said:


> A couple points about masks:
> 
> Lab studies that that found the N95s block 95% of particles and the surgical masks block 70& are done with laminar air flow. The masks are actually better than that because air flow out in the real world is not laminar, but turbulent...Cf- it's easy to drop an 18 inch basketball thru a 36 inch basketball hoop from directly above it, but when you're shooting from 30ft away, it's hard to get "nothing but net."
> 
> ...


You good


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

I heard the number is 70% now.

*Shocking’: 66% of new coronavirus patients in N.Y. stayed home: Cuomo*
By DENIS SLATTERY
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS |
MAY 06, 2020 AT 4:37 PM

We have lifted the paywall on this story. To support essential reporting, please consider becoming a subscriber.










Governor Andrew M. Cuomo delivers a daily briefing on the Coronavirus pandemic. (Don Pollard)

ALBANY — The majority of recently hospitalized coronavirus patients in New York are people who have followed the precaution of staying home, Gov. Cuomo said Wednesday.
The governor said it was “shocking" that 66% of new coronavirus


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

po boy said:


> I heard the number is 70% now.
> 
> *Shocking’: 66% of new coronavirus patients in N.Y. stayed home: Cuomo*
> By DENIS SLATTERY
> ...


 If only they had been wearing a mask while staying home.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

wr said:


> I think we're both entitled to our opinons and I respectfully disagree. If they aren't worn properly, they might as well be not wearing a mask at all and bad habits are harder to break than good habits.



This is like discussing masks with some pro mask folks.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

po boy said:


> I heard the number is 70% now.
> 
> *Shocking’: 66% of new coronavirus patients in N.Y. stayed home: Cuomo*
> By DENIS SLATTERY
> ...


The "survey" was skewed to pretend people were contracting covid while being isolated at home.








Are People Getting Sick Staying Home Alone? That's Not What a Misinterpreted Survey Said - FAIR


It would indeed be worrisome if people were ending up in the hospital despite observing lockdown restrictions, but there's no reason to think from the information provided in a new survey that that's the case.




fair.org


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Thank you for the link Danaus29


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

poppy said:


> This is like discussing masks with some pro mask folks.


That buck is awful!! Is that a Kiko?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Took a while to find the info this time around. When that deceptive information was new news I found the background information pretty quickly. I have the feeling that the longer this goes on, the more the real stories are going to be buried.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

poppy said:


> If only they had been wearing a mask while staying home.











PA gov announces new COVID rules, including wearing a mask in your house


Pennsylvania is planning to take additional steps to address a sharp increase in coronavirus infections and hospitalizations, including requiring masks to be worn indoors with limited exceptions and requiring travelers to be tested within 72 hours or quarantining for 14 days before coming to the...




www.foxnews.com




PA governor has issued new orders, including circumstances demanding masks in your own house.

I guess the money they'll save by defunding the cops can now be used to fund a new SS shock troop brigade...and while they're in your house to check on masks, they can also check to see if you removed that "Do Not Remove" sticker from your pillows and mattresses. .


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I am happy to say that our county and several others in Wyoming got mandatory mask-wearing passed by the state yesterday.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The goat in the video was performing courting behaviors. He was horny.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> I am happy to say that our county and several others in Wyoming got mandatory mask-wearing passed by the state yesterday.


Be afraid and stay home, its that simple. The adults have a country to save. Almost a year later, folks have had it. The original "14 day" quarantine was a load of bs. Millions of hard working folks had their lives ruined by politicians. They( the politicians)will be the ones who pay the piper in the long run. So while some are terrified, we will continue to have fun, ride motorcycles, have fabulous parties(like Newsome and other politicians who went to Maui) have family get-togethers and live life. Politicians hate it, but they can suck.......your word here!


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

@Alice In TX/MO -- good thing that guy didn't climb over the fence and get in his pen, hahaha.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> Be afraid and stay home, its that simple. The adults have a country to save. Almost a year later, folks have had it. The original "14 day" quarantine was a load of bs. Millions of hard working folks had their lives ruined by politicians. They will be the ones who pay the piper in the long run. So while some are terrified, we will continue to have fun, ride motorcycles, have fabulous parties(like Newsome and other politicians who went to Maui) have family get-togethers and live life. Politicians hate it, but they can suck.......your word here!


Why is it the go-to insult of "be afraid"? Do you do things to keep you and your family safe? Do you buy insurance in case you need medical care? Do you have insurance on your house? Do you get your kids vaccinated? Do you get physicals to know you are healthy? 

Wearing a mask during this pandemic is just being proactive for our own health and the health of others.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Amusing story. Our company is a DOD contractor( among other things)We get audited on a regular basis. Had an auditor show up last week and tell me we had to change our entire production line....again. I told him we were in complete compliance with the governments guidelines. He said HIS company had different guidelines and that we needed to complie. I told him to go away and tell his boss we were not going to complie and we are going to stop doing business with any company that tries to blackmail us. To be proactive, i called and left his boss a message. The boss called back after about 5 minutes, and said the auditor would be replaced, and that our policies were sound. See, they need what we manufacture, there are no other replacement parts available. It's good to be in the drivers seat sometimes!! 🙂


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Why is it the go-to insult of "be afraid"? Do you do things to keep you and your family safe? Do you buy insurance in case you need medical care? Do you have insurance on your house? Do you get your kids vaccinated? Do you get physicals to know you are healthy?


I can't think of anything I do that is at the expense of a man or woman's job, their livelihood, inhibits the ability of them to visit their family, elders, marry or attend funerals, bla and bla.
I think that might be what is called a false pretense in disguising a weak argument.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

^^^ well said GTX63


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

65 Covid cases reported in WHO staff based at Geneva headquarters


The agency asserts, however, that there has been no Covid-19 transmission at the WHO.




www.nbcnews.com




I wonder if they were all wearing their masks at the WHO Headquarters in Geneva?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

GTX63 said:


> I can't think of anything I do that is at the expense of a man or woman's job, their livelihood, inhibits the ability of them to visit their family, elders, marry or attend funerals, bla and bla.
> I think that might be what is called a false pretense in disguising a weak argument.


I recently read an article that some doctors are classifying cause of death in certain elders as failure to thrive due to isolation.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I watched our gov's state of the state covid address this afternoon. if a leading doctor for infectious disease can't wear his mask properly, there is little hope for the general public.









Gov. DeWine speaks in Columbus about COVID-19


Gov. DeWine speaks in Columbus about COVID-19




www.nbc4i.com





Just around 15:50 and a bit after 16:00 he adjusts his mask with his non-surgical gloved hands.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Here's a large Danish study on masks posted today. They found no statistical difference in infection between mask wearers and those who don't wear masks. And they were using surgical masks in the study, not those homemade cotton ones we see people wearing. 









Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers: A Randomized Controlled Trial: Annals of Internal Medicine: Vol 174, No 3


Background: Observational evidence suggests that mask wearing mitigates transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). It is uncertain if this observed association arises through protection of uninfected wearers (protective effect), via reduced transmission from...



www.acpjournals.org


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

wr said:


> I recently read an article that some doctors are classifying cause of death in certain elders as failure to thrive due to isolation.


No doubt that happens. That is one reason we for a long time have had people who's job is visiting elderly people confined at home. Old people in nursing homes in poor health can easily lose their will to live if they never see family or friends. We are all social creatures and removing interaction with others causes mental problems and death.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

Thanks for the study. No significant difference in infection rates, interesting stuff. 


poppy said:


> Here's a large Danish study on masks posted today. They found no statistical difference in infection between mask wearers and those who don't wear masks. And they were using surgical masks in the study, not those homemade cotton ones we see people wearing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

RJ2019 said:


> Thanks for the study. No significant difference in infection rates, interesting stuff.



I would be nice if more of these things were actually studied but I suppose there is no money to be made doing it. Instead we get opinions from supposed doctors and experts on YouTube and other places giving opposing opinions. Or an anecdotal report on what someone's cousin's second wife's mother who works in a hospital says. Doing studies in a lab under controlled conditions often has no relevance to the real world. I would guess a mask might stop some large droplets if someone sneezed in your direction but have little to no effect on small virus particles.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Why is it the go-to insult of "be afraid"? Do you do things to keep you and your family safe? Do you buy insurance in case you need medical care? Do you have insurance on your house? Do you get your kids vaccinated? Do you get physicals to know you are healthy?
> 
> Wearing a mask during this pandemic is just being proactive for our own health and the health of others.


If you take it as an insult, thats on you! Masks don't work. I carry a gun to keep my family safe, as does my wife. Again, if your afraid, dont go out. Don't infringe on my rights and well get along, infringe on them and YOU have a problem. See how that works?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Hmm. That gets me to thinking. How much safer we all would be if it was mandated for all to carry a weapon. But for some reason many will not like the idea. To make everyone happy perhaps a double mandate, gun and mask


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

Redlands Okie said:


> Hmm. That gets me to thinking. How much safer we all would be if it was mandated for all to carry a weapon. But for some reason many will not like the idea. To make everyone happy perhaps a double mandate, gun and mask


Yesssss!! I can get behind that. We'd have a much more well mannered society with a lot less bickering that way. I have a feeling the Karen's would kind of just fade into the background. The ones that know what's good for them anyway. Actually, mandating guns could solve quite a few of our society's problems, lol


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I don’t have my glasses on, and I misread that as a double margarita.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I think everyone should go home and have a double margarita. Then maybe they would get woozy and stay home and stop breathing on other people.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Elevenpoint said:


> I went to the doctor in 1988
> He said your very healthy
> Haven't been back since


Have you gone back annually for a physical check up including blood draw and bone scan and so forth? If not, you've not been taking care of yourself honestly. I had no health insurance from age 18 to around age 34 when I was required to go to the doctor for a physical only to be told I had health issues and at that time, I had just gotten married and finally got on my wife's health insurance plan.

It was a mind opening experience. Turns out I have high cholesterol, high blood pressure, severe gout issues (managed with diet and medication), I was pre diabetes but now am Type 2 Diabetic. I also have arthritis in my hands, knees, and feet plus more than likely my back along with carpal tunnel syndrome. I also have sleep apnea which is treated with having a CPAP machine breathe for me at night. I take medications morning and night. If I had ignored the symptoms or not gone in for a physical, I would've died years ago. My twin brother died in his sleep several years ago due to untreated and undiagnosed sleep apnea. Don't be like him. Go in for a full physical check up and if you have health insurance, USE IT! Don't be one of those masochistic people who think they'll live forever. You won't.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

TedH71 said:


> ... I have high cholesterol, high blood pressure, severe gout issues (managed with diet and medication), I was pre diabetes but now am Type 2 Diabetic. I also have arthritis in my hands, knees, and feet plus more than likely my back along with carpal tunnel syndrome. I also have sleep apnea.....


Oh, well. ..Nobody's perfect.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

TedH71 said:


> Have you gone back annually for a physical check up including blood draw and bone scan and so forth? If not, you've not been taking care of yourself honestly. I had no health insurance from age 18 to around age 34 when I was required to go to the doctor for a physical only to be told I had health issues and at that time, I had just gotten married and finally got on my wife's health insurance plan.
> 
> It was a mind opening experience. Turns out I have high cholesterol, high blood pressure, severe gout issues (managed with diet and medication), I was pre diabetes but now am Type 2 Diabetic. I also have arthritis in my hands, knees, and feet plus more than likely my back along with carpal tunnel syndrome. I also have sleep apnea which is treated with having a CPAP machine breathe for me at night. I take medications morning and night. If I had ignored the symptoms or not gone in for a physical, I would've died years ago. My twin brother died in his sleep several years ago due to untreated and undiagnosed sleep apnea. Don't be like him. Go in for a full physical check up and if you have health insurance, USE IT! Don't be one of those masochistic people who think they'll live forever. You won't.


Thank God you got on your wife's insurance plan! Think of all that medication that was sitting on the shelves unsold!


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

gilberte said:


> Thank God you got on your wife's insurance plan! Think of all that medication that was sitting on the shelves unsold!


I laugh about this statement but I know people who died from treatable issues just because they couldn't be bothered with going to the doctor for annual exams.

Then again, I know people who died or got really sick because of medical mistakes and/or neglect. 

You roll the dice and take your chances on how good your doctor really is and how well they listen to their patients.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

My ex was terrified of doctors. She hasn't been to the doctor ever since she was 18. She is unable to get pregnant (one of the reasons why we broke up) and refuses to go to a specialist for it even though she wants to have a kid. She married a French man who is ok with the fact she isn't going to have kids ever.

Diabetes is really sneaky. I'm Type 2. You really don't have any symptoms other than being really thirsty and maybe other minor symptoms. Type 1 is a biggie though. If you neglect it even a bit, you die. I've lost count of people who refused to go to the doctor and they wound up dead due to heart attacks or strokes or whatnot.

Again totally up to you. If you have health insurance you're paying fees towards then don't waste your money by not using it. Be smart and go in for a check up. You will be surprised. Not everyone is genetically blessed to having great health. The older you get, the more your body will break down.


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## mamagoose (Nov 28, 2003)

Danaus29 said:


> The one things masks definitely do is interfere with stores facial recognition systems.
> 
> farmerga, I understand what you are getting at. I think the masks are stupid and offer little to no protection from anything as they are worn by the general public.
> 
> I am very upset by Ohio's new requirement because no matter what you do, face masks fog glasses in cold weather. Many times my glasses fog up just from walking into a store. Add face mask fogging and glasses are absolutely useless until they warm up. I haven't figured out how I am going to handle that situation just yet.


 I had to travel out of state through 3 international airports out then back and masks were mandatory clearly “social distancing “ wasn’t, 3 of the 4 planes were packed...I consulted with my doc about being able to deal with wearing a mask so long or walking through infected plumes (something I’ve done my best to stay away from, but they’re out there), anyway my doc travels often and told me to get a rechargeable air filter gadget with hose, although I didn’t use the mask that came with it but put a slit in the folded type , added some medical tape to hold it where it delivered “fresher” air directly slow my nose. I also wrapped a large double folded bandana over the mask and tied it to the back of a ball cap. This really made a huge difference than feeling suffocated by a mask for hours and trying to deal with my sinus issues at the same time, and really helped to keep my glasses from fogging. I also wrapped the filter gadget in a single layer of bandana while the cord was around my neck. It lasted a full 6 hours but this particular one won’t work while recharging. I would like to pick up a single molecule, and build up immunity, but don’t know if I would care as well if I was blasted. I think it’s fair to say that when you can smell perfume or a smoker’s exhale and everyone has a mask on that viruses will find a way to escape and stay in the air long enough to get to another host. Anyway, maybe this will help someone else, I couldn’t go long wearing a mask without it.


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## mamagoose (Nov 28, 2003)

That was supposed to be “I don’t know if I would FARE as well”


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Another rehash.

A fellow from our church and an employee were in a freezer in a warehouse with a temperature of -60F

He was wearing a gaiter and his guy was wearing an N95 mask.

His breath could be seen extending straight out from his face and forming ice crystals then falling to the ground.

His employee's breath could be seen extending out of all 4 sides of his mask and forming ice crystals then falling to the ground (except the top of his mask which formed ice cubes on his eyebrows)

The point being that both worn properly still allowed large enough droplets to form ice crystals to extend away from their faces...... this virus is much smaller than that.

The human on average expels a little more than 1 tablespoon of moisture per hour. Spend an hour at your local DMV or Piggly Wiggly and see how wet your mask is. Do it feel like a spoonful of water wet?

Wear one for any reason you prefer; avoid the folks who don't wear one or just stay home. Your choice, right or wrong. Your consequences, good or bad.

The trenches have already been dug and the troops aren't moving the front lines anytime soon, so post all the links/quotes/charts/studies/sketches/doodles/tv shows you like. BTW, shaming does the opposite of its intent.
I haven't seen a single person converted to one side or the other because they were called ignorant or selfish or fools.
The masks may stop large droplets from a sneeze or cough, but they do not and can not stop a virus from getting out.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

GTX63, that is interesting. Thanks for sharing that information.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> The masks may stop large droplets from a sneeze or cough, but they do not and can not stop a virus from getting out.


I agree that masks are not hermetically sealed. But they not only stop the larger droplets, they change the trajectory of the particles that escape. If you look at the animations of comparisons like the one in your friend's freezer, the plume from an unmasked face goes much farther and creates a larger unsafe zone. 

The other thing that I read is that some of the gaiters are made out of modern microfibers that are actually bisecting droplets and turning one large droplet into several smaller droplets that are able to go through the weave. They can actually make things worse, depending on the fibre. A tri-layer cotton mask does not have the same problem.

I just wish people would stop looking for simple answers. I had to have a long conversation with my 85 year old mother, who wants to get up and personal when I drop off her groceries. "But I'm wearing my mask!" I had to explain, masks are good, six feet apart is good, but masks plus 6 feet apart is better. Its a whole series of incremental steps that add up to improving our odds.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

The Paw said:


> I agree that masks are not hermetically sealed. But they not only stop the larger droplets, they change the trajectory of the particles that escape. If you look at the animations of comparisons like the one in your friend's freezer, the plume from an unmasked face goes much farther and creates a larger unsafe zone.
> 
> The other thing that I read is that some of the gaiters are made out of modern microfibers that are actually bisecting droplets and turning one large droplet into several smaller droplets that are able to go through the weave. They can actually make things worse, depending on the fibre. A tri-layer cotton mask does not have the same problem.
> 
> I just wish people would stop looking for simple answers. I had to have a long conversation with my 85 year old mother, who wants to get up and personal when I drop off her groceries. "But I'm wearing my mask!" I had to explain, masks are good, six feet apart is good, but masks plus 6 feet apart is better. Its a whole series of incremental steps that add up to improving our odds.


That has been my point. All those people hanging their hat on the idea that masks is all it takes to solve this are misinformed. Masks should be suitable for the job, just a slip of fabric that keeps authorities from ticketing or being denied access to a business. 

I'm seeing a strong trend toward store employees being infected and they have barriers and masks but I also see most stores giving their employees single ply cotton maks and because most can't hear properly behind barriers, employees are 

Still this far into this, the simple advice we were given is still the most significant. Safe social distancing, don't touch your face and wash often. 

Those that can't wear masks already now what they need to do to protect themselves and don't need well meaning advice from pseudo doctors.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

No one here is hanging their hats on just masks. It is part of a group of things that are all important.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I think the most important tool is a 7 foot long sharp pointed stick. Use it to keep people 6 feet away.

Today I saw an example of how even medical people can't abide by the covid restrictions. We went to the dental clinic in the hospital this morning. There are signs saying keep 6 feet apart everywhere. All the elevators have a 2 person limit. Hubby and I got into the elevator and a hospital employee tried to crowd in too. She seemed shocked when I wouldn't step aside and told her there was a 2 person limit on the elevator. Then I pushed the button and closed the door in her face. 

No, I couldn't take the stairs. They about killed me last time.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

The Paw said:


> .... masks are good, six feet apart is good, but masks plus 6 feet apart is better. Its a whole series of incremental steps that add up to improving our odds.


That thinking may make you feel better, but it doesn't really work in the long run....In the first place, you need to enter the time element into the mix-- Spending 10 minutes in conversation with someone, both masked and 6 ft apart in a small room with poor ventilation may well get you infected...Two people passing on a side walk on a windy day without masks probably won't....Infectivity has to do with total viral load and it's concentration in the air.

In the example about 2 people to an elevator-- stupid. That elevator has the air & virus load of everyone who has been in it over the last 10 or 15 minutes at least. You could get infected even if you're the only one in it.

All this social distancing thinking is based on the false notion that the virus isn't concentrated enough in the air at that distance...but that's only true if there's good ventilation, low traffic density and time spent together is minimal.

Rules about limiting the number of people at a gathering is based on the fact that infection rates seem to be ~10%. So if there's more than 10 people together, the probabilities are that at least one is infected and a spreader. Lees than 10 and statistically, only , only a fraction of one person is infected. .People are quantized-- they don't come in fractions, so a group of less than 10 may well have no one carrying the bug in it.

The problem with stats & risks is that stats only apply to the group, never the individual. The more your exposure time to possible infection, the more likely you get infected.

And discussing this concept of "preventing the spread" is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The virus will continue to spread until it can't spread any farther. That's just a fact of life and epidemiology. "Slowing the spread" has no advntages and many disadvantages.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

doc- said:


> In the example about 2 people to an elevator-- stupid. That elevator has the air & virus load of everyone who has been in it over the last 10 or 15 minutes at least. You could get infected even if you're the only one in it.


I think the virus hangs around in the air much longer, hours maybe. That wasn't my point. My point was that hospital personnel violate their own protocols. If hospital personnel can't follow their own rules why should they expect the general public to follow their rules?


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Two weeks ago our area got a mask mandate. We have gone from 20 to 50 new cases a day, averaging around 30, to just 10 a day for the last several days.

Masks work. Yes, some are jerks and intentionally miswear them. Some are just ignorant of how to wear one properly. We don't do away with traffic laws because some are dumb or poorly trained. Same with heatlh laws.

I am all for personal freedom. But you have the right to yell, not to yell fire in a crowded theater.

If you cannot wear a mask, or face shield, or choose not to do so, by all means exercise your rights! Just not publicly. That is yelling fire in a crowded theater.

I don't care if wearing a mask in public offends you. I have a right to safety that supersedes your right to express yourself.

Just stay home. Use curbside delivery, use home delivery, order online by mail, work with your doctor for appropriate treatment venues. Even a person with some mystery illness that prevents wearing a face shield or mask can spread the coronavirus, so they are not exemptions. Those few people can be accommodated where their needs are met without risk to others.

The first right recognized for American citizens is the right to life! Your right to liberty does not mean you get to walk around butt naked killing who you want and eating larger children because small children leave them pesky bones between your teeth.

And in a public health emergency, you have the liberty to comply with public health measures or stay home. Not expect others to stay home so you can do your thang. They like doing their thang too!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Nodak, you made my day with that post.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

nodak3 said:


> Two weeks ago our area got a mask mandate. We have gone from 20 to 50 new cases a day, averaging around 30, to just 10 a day for the last several days.
> 
> Masks work. Yes, some are jerks and intentionally miswear them. Some are just ignorant of how to wear one properly. We don't do away with traffic laws because some are dumb or poorly trained. Same with heatlh laws.
> 
> ...





Just stay home. Use curbside delivery, use home delivery, order online by mail, work with your doctor for appropriate treatment venues. Even a person with some mystery illness that prevents wearing a face shield or mask can spread the coronavirus, so they are not exemptions. Those few people can be accommodated where their needs are met without risk to others.



That quote right there is a very good one. Anyone practicing this should have next to no worry about getting covid from others. Just stay home, keep your distance and let todays technology work for you. No need to worry about other peoples lack of safety protocols. Stay safe.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The few who are sick need to stay home. 

Hubby's brother in now hospitalized after being exposed to covid. His irresponsible and selfish boss came in to work with covid.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

nodak3 said:


> Two weeks ago our area got a mask mandate. We have gone from 20 to 50 new cases a day, averaging around 30, to just 10 a day for the last several days...
> 
> I


Can you prove cause & effect with that data?... NO. That's how superstitious behavior starts-- mistakenly associating coincidence with cause & effect. ...Infections spread in undulating waves. Simple math of population dynamics.

In regards "the selfish boss"-- he was spreading germs for up to 14 days before he even knew he had it. That's why this is a tough problem-- over half of the infected don't get sick in the least and go about spreading it. That makes it silly to impose Draconian restrictions on everybody-- It would take a TOTAL shut down of all interaction to make a difference-- ie-- nobody goes shopping, nobody goes to work, nobody leaves their home. etc...How long can that be sustained?


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

doc- said:


> *How long can that be sustained?*


It cannot!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

So you do not know if you have the virus unless you got a rapid test that day.
Thus that position or argument is based on the presumption that everyone is infected and contagious and they have to prove otherwise or be treated as infected? Why wouldn't this assumption of clinical illness apply to other scenarios as well? Would you support requiring a psychiatric evaluation every day before you could carry a gun in public or unlock your gun safe and gain access to your guns? Or a breathalyzer before each time you drove a car?
I mean you, know you might have snapped and gone postal that day and without a test to prove otherwise, we must just assume you are postal right? 
And epect that everyone has a bottle of Crown or Nyquil in their coat pocket.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

nodak3 said:


> Just stay home. Use curbside delivery, use home delivery, order online by mail, work with your doctor for appropriate treatment venues. Even a person with some mystery illness that prevents wearing a face shield or mask can spread the coronavirus, so they are not exemptions. Those few people can be accommodated where their needs are met without risk to others.


This phase has been used many times and it sounded pretty good to me too until I read an article in our local paper a couple days ago. 

People tend to forget that in order to get curbside pickup, they need a credit card which quickly excludes the working poor and quite frequently single mothers, immigrants and the elderly (who have paid cash most of their life). I've also read that debt load after the last lockdown put a lot of people in financial peril so there is no credit card left to use. 

I'm of the opinion that with business requirements and grocery shopping, one trip to town a week is reasonable but I've also found that as the numbers increase in my province, essentials are missing from the shelves and purchase restrictions which is forcing people back into the public more often.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Danaus29 said:


> The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The few who are sick need to stay home.
> 
> Hubby's brother in now hospitalized after being exposed to covid. His irresponsible and selfish boss came in to work with covid.


My second youngest brother, age 68 and diabetic, just got out of the hospital 2 days ago from COVID. Five members of his family had it and all did fine except him but he didn't seek medical attention for over a week and a half after he got sick. He was doing fine with the virus but due to lack of appetite and taste he wasn't eating and drinking right and got dehydrated. Then breathing problems and when he finally went to the hospital xrays showed he had a blood clot in each lung but his lungs were clear. He got an IV to rehydrate him and meds to dissolve the clots and was much better in 2 days. Then they gave him a shot of the plasma antibodies they take from the blood of people who have already had COVID. He had a severed allergic reaction to that and they put him in the ICU to calm that down. They also gave him something horrible to drink every day to kill any COVID in his intestinal tract. He said the nurse said it was iodine but I never heard of drinking iodine. But the plasma antibodies did work and 3 days later tests showed he was free of COVID and they released him. Doing fine now although still a bit weak. It is important to remember to drink and eat plenty with any flulike infection. Doctor told him if he had done that he likely wouldn't have ended up in the hospital.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

poppy said:


> ...They also gave him something horrible to drink every day to kill any COVID in his intestinal tract. He said the nurse said it was iodine but I never heard of drinking iodine....


???

That bone in the doc's nose and the gourd rattle should have tipped him off he needed a second opinion.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

wr said:


> This phase has been used many times and it sounded pretty good to me too until I read an article in our local paper a couple days ago.
> 
> People tend to forget that in order to get curbside pickup, they need a credit card which quickly excludes the working poor and quite frequently single mothers, immigrants and the elderly (who have paid cash most of their life). I've also read that debt load after the last lockdown put a lot of people in financial peril so there is no credit card left to use.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that with business requirements and grocery shopping, one trip to town a week is reasonable but I've also found that as the numbers increase in my province, essentials are missing from the shelves and purchase restrictions which is forcing people back into the public more often.


Good points


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

doc- said:


> In regards "the selfish boss"-- he was spreading germs for up to 14 days before he even knew he had it. That's why this is a tough problem-- over half of the infected don't get sick in the least and go about spreading it.


He came to work when he was sick and after getting a positive diagnosis. That is selfish and irresponsible. Sick people NEED to stay home.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> He came to work when he was sick and after getting a positive diagnosis. That is selfish and irresponsible. Sick people NEED to stay home.


The fact remains-- he was spreading the germs for possibly two weeks BEFORE he knew he was sick. Anybody who could pick it up from him was already contaminated by the time he knew he had it....

...The epidemic was so wide spread by the time anyone knew there was a new bug going around that isolation as a means of control was already out of the question...The social, economic, psychological damage caused by the ill advised shut down far outweighed any good it did...*In the long run-*- only achieving herd immunity would reduce the problem to one of an endemic status...The World will never be completely free of this new bug.

But the data shows risk from infection goes up with age...Sound familiar? Measles, mumps, chicken pox etc etc are all pretty mild when contacted as a kid. Get it as an adult and the complication rate goes way up....Dummest thing we've done so far is to close the schools.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

If he had stayed home, fewer people would have been exposed. That is a fact.

Brother in law has tested positive, thanks for asking.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> If he had stayed home, fewer people would have been exposed. That is a fact.
> 
> Brother in law has tested positive, thanks for asking.


If his workers stayed home, they wouldn't have been infected, right? Fact. 
How did he know he was infected without any symptoms?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

The boss came to work with symptoms and after a positive test result (takes 3 to 5 days to get results there). BIL took off work after showing symptoms. In that area you can't get a test without symptoms.

Sure the workers could stay home, but then you wouldn't be able to buy the stuff the company manufactures.


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