# Dog killed for chasing sheep



## wendle

This is an article about a lab who got in with a farmer's sheep and was shot dead. Interesting how many people are defending the dog and making threats to the farmer. Sad all the way around and I sure feel for the farmer in this. Notice the dog owner is wanting to go back after the farmer believing he is in the wrong. This could be a good lesson for those of us on how to deal with stray dogs attacking sheep and what the consequenses could be. 

Dog shooting in Newcastle sparks controversy | wcsh6.com


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## springvalley

The three S`s are allways used up this way, they are shoot, shovel and shut up. Enough said. > Thanks Marc


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## bergere

People shouldn't let their dogs run, period. Not only should dogs like this be shot, the owners should pay for any damaged or killed livestock.
Livestock isn't cheap. 
Have been on the receiving end of dogs enough in my past, I have no sympathy, toward the dogs owner.

Rather see a dog like this shot, than end up killing someone's kid or other people's livestock.


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## mink

theres no leash law up there in maine? id say maybe the dept of agriculture may have money to pay the farmer also for sheep killed by dogs. sheep are like deer chased in the winter , stress is the ultimate killer even if the dog doesnt catch them. im all for the farmer .


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## wendle

If you check out the Lab owner's facebook page it looks like he is bound to press charges. It mentions the dog wasn't attacking the sheep, but playing. We all know how dangerous that is. The law in that area apparently mentions the dog needs to be attacking the sheep to warrant being shot by the owner.


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## Maura

So, the farmer is supposed to ascertain if the dog is merely "playing" with the sheep or picking out a muttons chop?


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## Maura

I don't understand people. They will get a Lab, born and bred to be hunting, and expect it to stay in the yard. Had a lot of trouble with neighbor's two labs (mixes?) killing my chickens and trying to kill my ducks. Dogs ended up a mile away in a tiny village, killing rabbits that were in an off the ground hutch. Owner's father shot and killed one dog. He felt bad about it, but there were seven of his kid's bunny's dead and bloody on the ground. Now, he's got another big black Lab that runs loose. 

Naturally, I'm with the farmer. Running down the road or in the woods is much different that intentionally going over or through the fencing to "play" with the sheep.


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## SueMc

I had a mare run through a fence and cut up because of someone's pet that should have been home. I would shoot a dog in my pasture a fast as I could, and I like dogs more than I do some people.
The facebook page with the pic of the dead dog should be taken down. I feel sorry for the farmer. I hope he's not reading all the ignorant comments on FB.


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## Ross

I don't supposed running off weight or causing abortions from stress or exhaustion matter? If the farmer has good records he can sue for damages should the sheep fail to perform. No records no proof unfortunately. I wouldn't shoot a dog for a first non violent offence nor a second and there's never a third. There are a lot of coyotes here that do make (especially free running) pets disappear. Devilish critters


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## CesumPec

I love dogs, would hate to have to kill one, but in the farmer's position, shoot i must.


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## simi-steading

City folks don't get it and feel bad for the dog.

I wouldn't have thought twice if I would have been the sheep herder... The dog's owner should be saying he's sorry to the farmer for putting him in the position to have to shoot the dog..


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## Dusky Beauty

I wonder how many of those "dog lovers" would feel if the guy was routinely "letting his dog out to play" in town and the dog was hit by a car. The farmer is even less at fault than the driver in the hypothetical situation.


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## gone-a-milkin

I never should have looked at the fb page.
Some of the comments over there are mind-numblingly stupid.


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## Callieslamb

I wonder if the sheep knew the dog just wanted to play. Or did they not want to take any chances?


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## SunsetSonata

While I shake my head at all the people posting in support of the dog owner on the Justice for Bentley FB page, fortunately more rational and fair people are posting to the news station's FB page. I feel sorry for the farmer and the dog. Not so much the owner, in fact, only an idiot would let his dog roam within a half mile of a sheep pasture. That was an "accident" waiting to happen.


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## Darren

The dog owner was negligent plain and simple. He didn't take care of his dog. Letting it run could have gotten it hit by a car. The man should be banned from owning a dog. 

It sounds like the ex-dog owner is one of the generations that have bought into the victim hood mystique. Nothing is his responsibility. I'd like to see him charged with animal cruelty since his actions endangered his pet. That's the kind of individual that needs taken out back and massaged with a baseball bat until some common sense sinks in.

He's go my vote as a waste of oxygen.  him!!


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## houndlover

Right now in the Portland Oregon area there's a news story about 2 labs that "didn't come home" (running loose), and the owners found them dead, clubbed, in the woods behind their home. Of course the news is all over it from an animal cruelty issue - but the first thing I wondered was "I wonder who's livestock those dogs have been chasing"


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## simi-steading

I like the way you think Darren... We're on the exact same page... It was totally wrong of the dog owner to put the farmer in that position to make that choice... The dog owner needs to go apologize to the sheep owner, and buy him a dinner at the finest place in town..


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## Goat Servant

You love your dogs? Keep them home or at least leashed, ARRG!!
One of my Anatolians jumped fence to attack an unleashed golden who wouldnt hurt a fly if his life depended on it.
I always liked this dog & like his owner. Fact of the matter is, dog was the intruder.
People dont have any idea that sweet Fido is capable of doing much carnage.


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## AverageJo

If that dog had come here, I would hope I wouldn't have to shoot it. I would hope that our livestock guard dogs would have deterred it from entering the property. Of course if the dog was silly enough to enter, then I'd probably help out our guardians rectify the situation. I'm not going to let any dog 'play' with our livestock, not even our own.


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## simi-steading

As sadly as I'd hate to say it, if I raised my dog wrong and I caught it taking out my livestock, I'd make a choice I wouldn't be happy with... and blame it on myself....


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## Sarah J

Agreed. I have four dogs. Two are farm dogs, two are pets. The two pets are also in the "predator" category (Malamutes). They are fenced with cattle panels fromwhichthey have never escaped. However, the older one managed to escape one day from the *house* when the door wasn't shut all the way. We chased him to the pasture where he s harassing our own sheep and cattle. Dh was getting the gun when the bull came over to distract the dog long enough for me to grab him. But we were ready to shoot our own pet for the protection of our livestock. Some decisions aren't easy, but need to be made in a hurry to minimize damage.


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## Sarah J

Oh, the farm dogs had herded the littles to the other end of the pasture (while the adult males were standing their ground) and hadn't gotten back to the arena before we had it under control.


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## tinknal

Farmer got the "S" right but screwed up the "SS".


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## Ross

Sarah J said:


> Some decisions aren't easy, but need to be made in a hurry to minimize damage.


 OK so knowing what you know now has the farmer minimized damage or made it worse? It would have been prudent to fire a warning shot, and to get in there and chase off the dog, then talk to the owner or call the sheriff. Years ago a neighbour of mine let his ACD get in his neighbours dairy cows. The dog got shot. The ensuing mess of legal back and to (and yeah they're both farmers ) drove a permanent wedge between them and cost thousands for both sides, with no real result. No the dog should not have been there, but he was a working dog, and just slipped out of sight. The dairy farmer neighbour, could have called or just walked over to the the fence and shouted. Even though I feel he should protect his stock there are other ways to do that. There is a lot of acting without thinking going on in the world so do take a second or two to consider how to minimize the damage before you do un-reversible things. The times they are a changin!


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## Darren

If we all had a working crystal ball, we could all make the right decisions. In the heat of the moment when our livestock is at risk, that doesn't happen. We have to end the threat and minimize the damage.

I had a dog get loose and harass a neighbor's chickens. He didn't kill any but the neighbor encouraged his departure with a shotgun. The dog laid around for about a week before he recovered. I told the neighbor it was my fault the dog got loose. If that happened again, use a rifle. The dog never got out again.


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## CesumPec

Ross said:


> It would have been prudent to fire a warning shot, and to get in there and chase off the dog, then talk to the owner or call the sheriff.


What is a warning shot? Where do you aim a warning shot when a dog is amongst your flock? Why do you assume this would work, seen it in the movies? What type of gun and skills did the farmer have that would make a second shot possible or practical if the warning didn't work? 

Why do you believe the farmer could "get in there and chase off the dog"? What do you suppose all that chasing off of a dog does for the sheep? I don't have lots of experience with sheep, but I'm pretty sure you're not suppose to run at them, yelling and waving your arms. Why do you assume the dog would run in a direction opposite of the sheep when you are chasing the dog? 

Nope. Given the circumstances, what little we know, the farmer did what needed to be done.


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## Ross

CesumPec said:


> What is a warning shot? Where do you aim a warning shot when a dog is amongst your flock? Why do you assume this would work, seen it in the movies? What type of gun and skills did the farmer have that would make a second shot possible or practical if the warning didn't work?
> 
> Why do you believe the farmer could "get in there and chase off the dog"? What do you suppose all that chasing off of a dog does for the sheep? I don't have lots of experience with sheep, but I'm pretty sure you're not suppose to run at them, yelling and waving your arms. Why do you assume the dog would run in a direction opposite of the sheep when you are chasing the dog?
> 
> Nope. Given the circumstances, what little we know, the farmer did what needed to be done.


LOL!! There are always options!! Considering my decent knowlege of sheep I know the farmer could have both fired a warning shot AND had a decent second shot if needed and should be able to try other things before comitting to a course of action that will likely cost him thousands of dollars! I've shot at coyotes amongst my sheep, both numbering in the hundreds of sheep and much smaller numbers, they bunch together very nicely. I hope the famer gets off easier than i think he will, and you can deal with the reality any way you like, but be prepared to have your beleifs shot down and pay for it.


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## CesumPec

Ross said:


> LOL!! There are always options!! Considering my decent knowlege of sheep I know the farmer could have both fired a warning shot AND had a decent second shot if needed and should be able to try other things before comitting to a course of action that will likely cost him thousands of dollars! I've shot at coyotes amongst my sheep, both numbering in the hundreds of sheep and much smaller numbers, they bunch together very nicely. I hope the famer gets off easier than i think he will, and you can deal with the reality any way you like, but be prepared to have your beleifs shot down and pay for it.


You know the farmer had the skills to take a second shot? So you know this farmer and what kind of gun, how much he practices, how the dog would act at the sound of a shot. You assume much.


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## Ross

He hit the dog, and I know what that means.


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## CesumPec

Ross said:


> He hit the dog, and I know what that means.


I'm a very good shot with a semi-auto, great with a first shot from a lever action and stink to high heaven with the second when rushed. Bolt action, a second rushed shot - I'm no good. See, hitting the dog with the first shot doesn't tell you lots.


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## gone-a-milkin

Our most recent dog movie here we had a hound-type stray who was chasing around and around the chicken coop.
It was jumping and tearing at the wire. Yelling had absolutely no effect.
When a warning shot was fired the dog spun around and LOOKED at the shooter very briefly before resuming the 'play'.

A lot depends on the circumstances.
How far away you are from the happenings makes a big difference.

The lesson for people is to not assume that just because your dog has always returned from his 'play' before,
that he might continue to do so safely.

Dogs get bolder and bolder when left to roam freely. 
The first week they might stay close to home. 
Next week they may travel miles and into mischief.

Farmers WILL and DO shoot at dogs worrying their stock. 
Simple fact. 

Dont want to risk it? Keep your dog home. 

It is a hard fact to learn for some people.


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## Otter

houndlover said:


> Right now in the Portland Oregon area there's a news story about 2 labs that "didn't come home" (running loose), and the owners found them dead, clubbed, in the woods behind their home. Of course the news is all over it from an animal cruelty issue - but the first thing I wondered was "I wonder who's livestock those dogs have been chasing"


Sorry houndlover, no. Animal cruelty all the way. If someone could club a dog's head in, they probably already had it tied up, and if not, they could have. Clubbing a dog is an act of cruelty and violence. 

Cesumpec, Ross has a LOT of experience with this sort of thing. I don't have anywhere near as much, but I don't want to play Hatfields and McCoys and neither does anyone else with a lick of sense.
You can't divorce your neighbors.
If a dog shows up out of the blue, then do what you have to. But a warning shot is possible.

If you have neighbors who let their dogs roam, a paintball gun works wonders. When a dog runs yelping home with fluorescent splotches the owner can not deny that the dog was roaming and in shooting distance of someone.


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## Molly Mckee

Years ago we had our small flock of sheep hurt badly up by a neighborhood dog. It happened so fast it was unbelievable. We called the cops, they said shoot it. Our town constable and a deputy sheriff, both neighbors came to help. They shot the dog.

This was not a problem dog, a good pet, but when the sheep ran from him there was no stopping him. My husband fired several warning shots as he didn't want to shoot into a flock of sheep, with other animals all around. The dog didn't even hear them. 

When a dog starts chasing livestock and the animals run, it's almost impossible to stop it. And even if you can the dog will be back.


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## CesumPec

Otter said:


> Sorry houndlover, no. Animal cruelty all the way. If someone could club a dog's head in, they probably already had it tied up, and if not, they could have. Clubbing a dog is an act of cruelty and violence.
> 
> Cesumpec, Ross has a LOT of experience with this sort of thing. I don't have anywhere near as much, but I don't want to play Hatfields and McCoys and neither does anyone else with a lick of sense.
> You can't divorce your neighbors.
> If a dog shows up out of the blue, then do what you have to. But a warning shot is possible.
> 
> If you have neighbors who let their dogs roam, a paintball gun works wonders. When a dog runs yelping home with fluorescent splotches the owner can not deny that the dog was roaming and in shooting distance of someone.


I just went back and re-read the article and watched the vid. the farmer claims to have tried to call off the dog and it was reported that four shots fired. The farmer seemed contrite, but maybe he was some jerk looking for an excuse to fire. I'm assume he's a decent man and the facts are as reported, which I fully acknowledge is often not the case. but taking at face value the comments of the actors and the reports, the farmer did his best in a bad situation and tried to avoid an unnecessary dead pet. 

the dog's owner says he's trying to make a stink so that others will learn, but it is the owner that needs to learn you don't release a dog to run in that sort of area.


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## lasergrl

Wonder if all the animal rights weirdos posting on bentleys facebook noticed he still has his testicles (clearly visible in the shot photo). Since to AR people a dog who still has his testicles is considered cruel and irrisponsible would they change their mind about the dogs owner?


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## ChristieAcres

Here, a dog will be shot if it is chasing deer, is going after livestock, or menacing in other ways. 

Sad thing is you don't get "chances." This is well known so most dog owners keep them at home. I had a call just a week ago about a dog having killed some chickens. The owner denied the dog had gotten out, no pics or other evidence. I was told to keep an eye out. I told her our dog wouldn't allow another dog to attack his flock; if any dog came onto our property and attacked our dog...death sentence. I love my dog!

After losing 47 sheep to dogs, I don't blame the farmer for trying to prevent losing more. That so-called play can turn to killing very quickly, by running the sheep, and causing heart attacks. The sheep were the victims!

The dog owner is irresponsible. We don't let our dog run free!


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## wendle

A couple things that I've been thinking about on this particular incident. The farmer said the dog was "chasing" not attacking. He also mentioned the dog was never a problem before. It shouldn't, but might come back on him. He stands a good chance of going to court with this guy it looks like , possibly costing him. If I were a judge I would side with the farmer as it was on his property and the dog was loose. If this happened to me, I don't think I would shoot the dog just for getting in with the sheep chasing if there was any way to stop it. Maybe it's because I have stopped many dogs that were up to no good with sheep in the past. If I thought the dog was going to come after me when I intercepted, then I would have to go to more extreme measures. Most dogs will back off from a one on one confrontation with a human. I would for sure contact the neighbors to help stop the dog if at all possible, but I like my neighbors. I would take pictures and videos if at all possible of the dog/s and sheep.


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## ChristieAcres

Farmer lost 47 sheep, 7 of stress, over a 10 yr period. Second chance for a dog running his sheep, NOPE! Our opinions are cheap, but losing 47 sheep isn't!

If we catch a dog on our property going after our chickens, he will already be contending with our dog, so will have to be shot. You see, dogs see this simple...trespass, I attack, try to harm my people or critters, I kill.


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## Allen W

wendle said:


> A couple things that I've been thinking about on this particular incident. The farmer said the dog was "chasing" not attacking. He also mentioned the dog was never a problem before. It shouldn't, but might come back on him. He stands a good chance of going to court with this guy it looks like , possibly costing him. If I were a judge I would side with the farmer as it was on his property and the dog was loose. If this happened to me, I don't think I would shoot the dog just for getting in with the sheep chasing if there was any way to stop it. Maybe it's because I have stopped many dogs that were up to no good with sheep in the past. If I thought the dog was going to come after me when I intercepted, then I would have to go to more extreme measures. Most dogs will back off from a one on one confrontation with a human. I would for sure contact the neighbors to help stop the dog if at all possible, but I like my neighbors. I would take pictures and videos if at all possible of the dog/s and sheep.


Chasing is attacking in my book, causing stress and running pounds off animals. If your dog is caught chasing animals here he will be killed any time, any where, by any body when the word goes out.


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## farmerDale

I had posted a couple years ago about one of our dogs who had gone berserk in the head. She suddenly started roaming and I asked for advice on here. In the end we had her put down, and as I look back, had she been harrassing someones stock, I would have totally understood if the stock owner had shot her. Fortunately neighbors are few and far between, but I would have understood, and been good with it.


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## Goat Servant

"Only" chasing sheep? Next time dog will be attacking them, no question.
I did not read the fb article. 
From childhood experience any otherwise normal dog turns into a killer when around sheep.

Last winter we had a neighborhood Beagle who kept coming around next door. LGDs going nuts & goats all freaked out.
Neighbors escorted him back home. Then Bob escorted him back. The third time I did & told owners our dogs would eat him.
The 4th incident it was snowing & poor Beagle was trying to scale neighbors fence to get away from the defenders on our property who were behind their own fence.
Since he was not on ours I had no right but it sure gave me pause for thought.


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## Kazahleenah

wendle said:


> If you check out the Lab owner's facebook page it looks like he is bound to press charges. It mentions the dog wasn't attacking the sheep, but playing. We all know how dangerous that is. The law in that area apparently mentions the dog needs to be attacking the sheep to warrant being shot by the owner.


_he's lost 47 sheep to neighborhood dogs - 7 of those dropped dead from stress. He admits Bentley has never been a problem in the past, but he wasn't taking any chances with his pregnant flock.

According to Maine Law, Title 12: "An owner of domestic animals, livestock or poultry... may kill any dog killing or attacking the domestic animals, livestock or poultry."_

Looks to me the farmer has a good legal case since dogs HAD been killing his sheep.


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## wendle

The thing is Bentley did not kill any sheep as the farmer said. He also said Bentley had never been a problem before. He has lost sheep to other dogs.


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## eieiomom

_Going into lambing last season, my flock was in absolutely perfect condition.
A week before they were due to start lambing, a dog that my landlord's brother was "watching", ran into the barn where my ewes were resting.
The ewes spooked, trampling and bumping into each other and things, while frantically trying to get away from the dog.
The rams also in panic, jumped/broke out of their pen and ran around mounting the heavily pregnant ewes.
This was devastating, being so close to lambing time.
There were no initial deaths to the sheep, but over the next couple weeks, a few either aborted or lost their lambs at parturation and a couple ewes carrying mulitples went off feed, which lead to other problems.

So although in the case noted here, "Bentley" didn't kill the sheep directly at that time, who knows what kind of damage he may have caused just "chasing" the sheep, and showing up indirectly, at a later date ?
If they were pregnant or if they ran into any fencing or lost their balance, rolled or were stepped on by others, this may have caused internal bleeding or broken ribs.

~Deb_


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## BobDFL

Had a situation with a neighbors dog that caused the death of one of my goats and another one to abort. Luckily I caught the dog, and prevented what happened here (ensueing legal battle). My neighbor was very apologetic, and we have arrainged a re-payment alternative (he's doing some welding work for me), and we're still neighborly. Though I would have been totally in my rights to shoot the dog, I would only do that if it was agressive towards me while catching it (had to do that once). 

I've got suburbia encroaching on me and this type of incident is becoming more frequent. What I've found is that if I get know your neighbors and get to know their dogs and their names you can prevent the need to shoot by stopping the dogs in the act (using a dogs name is very powerful tool), and if it happens more than once you can always call Animal Control once you grab the dog. The fine is sometimes enough to get the owner to wise up, and if it happens again the owner sometomes doesn't get the dog back from animal control because it is considered a habitual offender (especially if livestock is being harrased). also without killing the dog you have a better leg to stand on in court, in order to recoup losses.


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## finnsheep

Personally, if I saw a dog chasing my sheep, I'd probably shoot. No second chances. The poor sheep that were slaughtered, almost invariably for fun, won't get a second chance at life. 

I believe that we have an obligation to protect the defenseless animals under our care- by lethal means if necessary. The dog's owner has a serious obligation to contain his or her animal. 

We've had stray dogs roaming through our property. If they are minding their own business or I know for a fact that it's a certain person's animal and it won't happen again, I will get the dog back to its owner.

I will never understand why in some people's minds, dogs are far superior to other animals. Why is the life of a sheep less important than a dog?


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## eieiomom

finnsheep said:


> I believe that we have an obligation to protect the defenseless animals under our care- by lethal means if necessary. The dog's owner has a serious obligation to contain his or her animal.


Very well said !

~Deb


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## ChristieAcres

wendle said:


> The thing is Bentley did not kill any sheep as the farmer said. He also said Bentley had never been a problem before. He has lost sheep to other dogs.


The sheep were pregnant, which means the dog didn't have to chase them very long before causing the sheep to miscarry or die of shock and fear. Dogs typically chase before the instinct to kill takes over. Either way, it makes no difference. To save his sheep, the farmer had no choice. It wasn't worth the risk.

Even one of my chickens is worth more than a trespassing dog.

What is harder to understand is why dog owners think their dogs should be able to run free with no consequences. Had the dog been hit by a car, it wouldn't have been news. The farmer probably saved the dog from a more expected end, pasted to the pavement or euthanized with severe injuries.

Despite the simple common sense of the situation, there will be those unwilling to concede that the life of a pregnant sheep isn't worth the life of a possible livestock killer. Without being stopped, it was a certainty.


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## wendle

I agree the dog can kill the sheep by just chasing. The bred ewes can abort their lambs. Hopefully if/when the farmer goes to court the judge will side with him, and he won't have to pay too much for a lawyer. I just don't believe in automatically sentencing a dog to death because he might have escaped or gotten in with the sheep once. If I can get the same results(stop the dog) without resorting to a bullet I will. Once the damage is done, killing the dog isn't going to bring to life dead sheep, or prevent abortion.


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## ChristieAcres

wendle said:


> I agree the dog can kill the sheep by just chasing. The bred ewes can abort their lambs. Hopefully if/when the farmer goes to court the judge will side with him, and he won't have to pay too much for a lawyer. I just don't believe in automatically sentencing a dog to death because he might have escaped or gotten in with the sheep once. If I can get the same results(stop the dog) without resorting to a bullet I will. Once the damage is done, killing the dog isn't going to bring to life dead sheep, or prevent abortion.


Sad thing is, the damage is done quickly, so the sheep can still prematurely miscarry. Stopping the dog will just allow the irresponsible owner another opportunity to let his dog out to get hit by a car or caught in the act of killing a sheep.

Killing the dog won't bring back sheep, but its life is forfeit, since it will do it again. One of my chickens killed? I'd shoot the offending trespassing dog. In fact, a dog comes on to our property and even begins to act aggressive to my cats, it is dead. Attack my dog? Well, if I can get in a shot, I will.

My animals' lives are worth more than any trespassing dogs'.


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## Warwalk

I think this is an issue of where Suburbia runs into direct conflict with the Country, and vice versa. Black labs are some of the sweetest of dog breeds out there, and it's highly likely the dog probably was just having fun running those sheep every which way. I love labs. I love dogs in general, but I especially like Labs. 

That being said, had the farmer not shot the dog (say, for instance, he spent the better part of 15 minutes or more trying to run the dog down, somehow picking it up or restraining it... dangerous in its' own right) the farmer could have allowed for additional harm / damage to his flock. Could you imagine the surprised look on the neighbors' face when the farmer presented him with a bill for a thousand dollars or more? So in this case I don't think the farmer had much choice.

My solution for the future of this farmer: Post signs stating what has happened before, how it has resulted in monetary damage, and what will happen in the future. I'd also, as the farmer, go back and "dog proof" my fences to the best of my ability. Possibly it's a losing battle, as dogs can squeeze under just about anything, but at least if this ever comes up in the future the farmer can point to reciepts showing he has attempted to secure his land. Sidenote: I doubt it would stick, but I wonder if someone could bring a claim of "attractive nuisance"? (such as when someone has a trampoline or a pool?)


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## ChristieAcres

Sorry to burst that bubble on Labs... Our neighbor has a Black and a Golden. They killed all of his chickens! Yes, they are incredibly sweet, too. He knows we have chickens, so he got an invisible fence, which works. This neighbor also knows dogs who go after livestock get shot, but he also loves his dogs and doesn't want them hit by a car...

This is an example of common sense. Responsible dog owners keep their dogs at home, so they are safe.

The farmer protected his sheep while the dog owner did not protect his dog. 

Here, dogs are shot for chasing deer. We don't let our dog chase deer, but he is allowed to bark at them. We also love him, so we keep him home.


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## Ross

> I will never understand why in some people's minds, dogs are far superior to other animals. Why is the life of a sheep less important than a dog?


 Potentially the sheep is more valuable but in the eyes of the court you might get a couple hundred dollars where as the dog's value will be much more subjective. I'm not saying we shouldn't or can't protect our livestock, but really you do need to take a minute and consider what shooting a neighbours dog will do to you. Maybe in some parts the law is written that you can shoot a dog chasing stock, but there are enough fresh lawyers minted everyday who can shred that sort of protection in minutes. You can be absolutely right and still lose. If you have proof of loss, or made an effort to stop the damage before shooting then you're in a better position. Did you do enough to prevent the problem with fencing and are you sure your management practices will stand up to scrutiny? Because if you get a lawyer involved they will pick you apart looking for any weakness anywhere. Was there enough pasture to have the sheep there in the first place? Was the pasture over grown so they couldn't move freely? Defending yourself from stupidity is expensive and unreliable. Just think before you act is all I'm saying.


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## finnsheep

Ross, I well understand the legality issues. You are not wrong. I'm not necessarily saying that what I said is the smartest thing to do, but in my mind it is the only just thing to do. 

I think that it is a terrible thing that we have to live in a world where we aren't even allowed to protect the defenseless, for fear of being sued.

Once a dog has chased sheep, it will do so again and again, and it will it take a step further. In my experience, very few people will keep their dogs home no matter what you do. I'm pretty sure they'd try to call on you if you threatened a bullet the next time you see them on your property. 

I think a well-placed bullet is a far more humane death than be worried to the point of heart failure and abortion, or having the throat and udder torn out. It is absolutely devastating to have to deal with the sorry aftermath of "sweet little Fido's" fun, and I have absolutely no sympathy for those who will not keep their dogs confined.


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## CesumPec

Ross said:


> Potentially the sheep is more valuable but in the eyes of the court you might get a couple hundred dollars where as the dog's value will be much more subjective. I'm not saying we shouldn't or can't protect our livestock, but really you do need to take a minute and consider what shooting a neighbours dog will do to you. Maybe in some parts the law is written that you can shoot a dog chasing stock, but there are enough fresh lawyers minted everyday who can shred that sort of protection in minutes. You can be absolutely right and still lose. If you have proof of loss, or made an effort to stop the damage before shooting then you're in a better position. Did you do enough to prevent the problem with fencing and are you sure your management practices will stand up to scrutiny? Because if you get a lawyer involved they will pick you apart looking for any weakness anywhere. Was there enough pasture to have the sheep there in the first place? Was the pasture over grown so they couldn't move freely? Defending yourself from stupidity is expensive and unreliable. Just think before you act is all I'm saying.


now that I can agree with. Companies I've worked for have spent good money defending bad lawsuits. We won but spent thousands to win and lots of time and focus that was not directed to anything profitable and productive.


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## tinknal

Maybe this is OT but I cannot understand giving private animal welfare organizations legal enforcement powers. It just doesn't make sense. It would be like letting the KKK or NAACP enforce affirmative action laws.


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## HOTW

The Dog was loose and harassing the sheep obviously the dog was not being watched because"he didn't come home" and they didn;t know where he was. Sorry but having seen wha dogs do to livestock the farmer was correct in removing the htreat to his livestock. The owner on the FB page just wants people to agree with him and takes no blame for his dog not being contained. The Farmer obviously knew the dog as he stated "the dog hasn't been a problem before" so he must be feeling it since he had to shoot a neighbours pet. 

However in the long run it comes down to containment of aniamls. The fAarmer's sheep were contained in their pasture, the dog was in the pasture and not contained on his owner's property. The dog owner is at fault and his dog suffered the consequnce!


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## Darren

Ross, around here the county commissions run large newspaper notices about lambing season and loose dogs. Any owner of a dog shot while harassing livestock is in for a rude surprise if they go before a magistrate to file a complaint. 

Even a newbie lawyer won't take a case like that. There has to be significant money potential for a lawyer to take the case. Around here, it isn't happening. Dead dogs just disappear.


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## Kazahleenah

wendle said:


> The thing is Bentley did not kill any sheep as the farmer said. He also said Bentley had never been a problem before. He has lost sheep to other dogs.


and being chased by ANY dog can be lethal to the sheep....


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## Dusky Beauty

several decades ago my grandparents moved from southern california to a small oregon community. The next door neighbor had a sheep farm. 
My grandmother adored her great dane, but everytime she managed to slip out, she killed the neighbor's sheep. 

After a few such instances they reached an arrangement. The farmer started leaving his culls in that field, and every time the dane caused him to lose a sheep, my grandfather got a phone call and bought himself several dead sheep at top dollar prices. 
Lawsuits were never considered. That was just the practical way both parties dealt with it.

Awfully expensive dog though.


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## wendle

Kazahleenah said:


> and being chased by ANY dog can be lethal to the sheep....


 The reason I brought that up was because it could very well make a difference in court, not because I don't see the harm in it. The farmer would have been better off saying the sheep were attacked from the start instead of playing. People who don't raise sheep do not understand the consequences of a dog "playing".


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## wendle

finnsheep said:


> Once a dog has chased sheep, it will do so again and again, and it will it take a step further. I


Not if it's trained


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## gone-a-milkin

wendle said:


> . The farmer would have been better off saying the sheep were attacked from the start instead of playing. People who don't raise sheep do not understand the consequences of a dog "playing".


I agree with this.
A dog's idea of 'playing' is a sheep's idea of being terrorized.
Dont use the word 'play' to describe the event to anyone, especially if the media may get ahold of the story.

I feel so bad for that farmer. 
He is being drug through the coals for something that was totally preventable on the dog owner's part.


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## ChristieAcres

The dog owner should be fined for the distress caused to the sheep and for the bullet used to kill his dog. Hey, maybe also for the time the farmer had to take just in defending his sheep. Now, the dog owner should be facing a lawsuit and the farmer being awarded for what he is suffering over all this.


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## sheepish

The breeder from whom I originally bought my first sheep had her sheep run by dogs once in the early winter. Only one ewe out of 97 remained pregnant. Missing that year's lamb crop meant over 20 thousand dollars in lost income.

The dogs who ran her flock were a pack of four dogs formed up by dogs dropped off by people heading back home to town after a summer at the cottage. "Isn't it nice for the kids to experience having a dog for the summer. I'm sure some nice farmer will adopt them."


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## Honorine

Couple of years ago there was another case like this, pair of huskies shot while killing chickens. It was their second time at this farmers, think the first time the owners had paid for the chickens. Owners freaked out, cried that this farmer had murdered their beautiful sweet huskies over some stupid worthless chickens. They said that their huskies were loved and welcomed in their neighborhood whenever they got out, stupid clueless people.

Labs are not the wonderful sweet harmless breed they once were, I've seen many with serious aggression problems, put down a two year old black lab because of his Jekyll and Hyde personality. After nearly 2 decades as the number one breed they have been ruined. Knowing what I know about them now I'd shoot one that showed up here. In fact there's a number of breeds I'd shoot on sight, dachshunds are on that list, their prey drive is legendary, and they can fit anywhere. Someone here posted once about losing her entire flock of chickens and turkeys to mini weiner dogs. I've seen them kill cats, their like rabid weasles.

I read all the info, including the FB page, and all I'm seeing is a negligent owner whose responsible for the death of his own dog blaming the farmer. He let the dog out to play, no mention of a fence or kennel. Dog was only 2 years old, still a big stupid puppy. He left for work and left the dog in the care of someone esle, who could not control the dog. That person doesn't appear to have made much of an effort to get the dog in, and left it to its own devices when it wouldn't come to her. Farmer may have shot the dog in the leg first and then finished it off, their screaming about that. In a perfect world you kill with the first shot, doesn't always happen that way. Farmer had no obligation to try and stop dog first, although it appears that he did try. His biggest mistake was opening his mouth, and its going to cause him a lot of trouble. Owner has chosen to take the role of victim, with 'sheeple'(scuze me) its always someone esles fault. He needs to man up and accept that his dog is dead because he did not contain it, he did not train it, he did not keep Bentley safe. He won't, but he should. I love dogs, life would be dark and ugly without them, and this was a sad and avoidable death, if the owner had just done the right thing.


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## ajaxlucy

It's hard to believe that the owner isn't taking responsibility for his dog. I feel bad for the man's kids and for the farmer whose sheep were being harassed. That facebook page is incredibly infuriating.


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## crispin

I have learned the SSS the hard way.

A while ago I had to shoot a dog that was killing piglets.

This dog (a Malamute) had a history of getting loose and killing chickens (a long history)

After it was found with 3 dead piglets it was put down.

I ending up posting it on another forum that I am on as I was stressed over the problems I was having with the neighbor over the matter.

Well some people on the forum went all crazy (not even sure of what to call them) and these people went so far to find out where I live and bombarded the local sheriffs office with calls and emails.

They sent an investigator to my home to file out a report on the matter. I was told that although it was not against the law to shoot any animal that is threatening livestock they needed to come out just due to the shear volume of calls and emails they were getting.

So I learned the hard way S S S


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## Badger

I feel bad about this. I hate to even venture into this conversation, but I need to relate my experience. I raise Boer goats. I have some pretty good blood lines, I have been breeding for parisite resistance in this blood line for about 20 years now. I have good fences and have had very little problems with predators over the years. About a year ago my neighbor sold off a 2 or 3 acre parcel abutting my pasture and they put in a trailer. The new people have had a pack of untrained, unruley dogs ever since they moved in. They roam the neighborhood, dumping trash cans, terrorizing yard pets, poultry, stock, even horses. I have spoken to the dogs owner several times, When they started killing my goats I had a deputy go talk to him. His attitude was " well, you can't stop a dog from being a dog." 
The Deputy told me if the dogs are harassing your livestock you have every right to destroy the animals. The only chance you have of restitution for killed livestock is to take the owner to court. They may be found liable but there is no mechinism in the court to make them pay in a reasonable time period. 
This went on for about 6 months - I tried chasing the dogs off with a bull whip, Air horn, Rebuilt about 1100 feet of fence with 9 strands of barb wire, 4 inches apart with stays every 3 feet. That was an expence of about $1,300. The dogs would stay away for a couple of weeks then dig under some place and go on a killing spree again. I finally had enough and shot two of the dogs, I felt so bad you would not believe. When I went to tell the dogs owner what had had happened he said " well, they should have known better. " I'm glad I didn't have my gun then, I would be writing this from prison.


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## birchtreefarm

tinknal said:


> Farmer got the "S" right but screwed up the "SS".


He couldn't have done the shovel and shut up part, because he was alerted to the fact of a dog in with his sheep by a neighbor, who went back with him to the pasture, where two other neighbors already were. So the good thing is that he had three witnesses to what the dog was doing (chasing and biting at the sheep) and that he called 911, who called AC (or he called AC, it wasn't clear who called them). 

And then he tried to get the dog away from the sheep himself, but could not. And then someone brought him a gun, and he shot the dog.

The idiots who are claiming the dog was just "playing" with the sheep are hoping it will be enough to at least pursue a civil suit, I'm sure. The DA has the case now, and last I read they are looking into it and will decide whether or charges are warranted.

As the sheep were fenced, and the dog was chasing them around and around (they were stressed, panicked, bunched up, panting, tongues hanging out, and they were his pregnant ewe flock), and there are witnesses, I'm pretty sure the DA will find he did nothing wrong. But the statute uses the word "attacking" and so the dog owner and friends are hoping they can make their case based on their assertion that the dog was only "playing" with the sheep. This is of course based on the fact that Bentley was a pet who loved his family. And of course would never do anything to hurt anybody or anything (in their opinion).

But unfortunately, apparently the farmer, feeling bad about what he had to do, used the word "playing" when he spoke with the news people about the incident, so now they are jumping all over that, saying, "See!? Even the farmer says the dog was only playing with the sheep!"

The fact that the sheep don't know or care whether or not a dog is "playing" or trying to have them for lunch doesn't matter to these people. Fifty ewes aborting their lambs doesn't matter. The potential loss of sheep to stress bloat or something like that doesn't matter. Only the fact that the dog was someone's pet matters.

If you'd like to support Straw Farm, they have a FB page as well.


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## arnie

An old chicken and sheep farmer gave me some advice many years ago about maraudng dogs '' shoot em er poisin em n don't say nothin to nobody'' the dog owner could care less if you starve this winter or tne county puts a lean on yer land for not being able to pay the taxes . 
The owner is likely better off without that stupid dog and should pay for the damages and the bullit .


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## BarbadosSheep

in my state, the law is on the side of the farmer. The law states that any dog found "worrying" or killing sheep can be shot and the dog's owner must pay the sheep owner 4 times the value of the sheep. Funny thing is the law spells out sheep and makes no mention of any other livestock.

As far as the farmer using the word "playing"....I doubt that's going to hurt him much. The dog was playing....the sheep were not enjoying the game. The sheep were being terrorized by a predator who was chasing them. The sheep had no idea that dog was only playing.


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## BarbadosSheep

wendle said:


> I agree the dog can kill the sheep by just chasing. The bred ewes can abort their lambs. Hopefully if/when the farmer goes to court the judge will side with him, and he won't have to pay too much for a lawyer. I just don't believe in automatically sentencing a dog to death because he might have escaped or gotten in with the sheep once. If I can get the same results(stop the dog) without resorting to a bullet I will. Once the damage is done, killing the dog isn't going to bring to life dead sheep, or prevent abortion.


no, killing the dog won't bring the dead sheep back to life. But it will prevent other sheep from becomming dead next time the dog gets loose. And trust me....there will be a next time. there always is.


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## cjean

We have neighbors that own 2 horses and a blue heeler. Their dog is always running in and biting the horses heels, making them bleed, and run around their paddock in fear. Do they stop him? No. When he showed up on our property, dh took no chances, and shot him with rubber buckshot. He hasn't come back.

I really appreciate our state laws: if a loose dog is even harassing livestock or other domestic animals (or wildlife), then it is legal to shoot them. We very much don't ever want to do so, but will if necessary. We do keep the rubber buckshot handy, though, since it's not as final. Of course our neighbors all "love" their dogs, but sometimes it just doesn't show.


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## secretcreek

I have two neighbor dogs who are daily let loose to make a very large circuit that includes our pasture area and woods where we hunt whitetail. The sharpei X is a fear biter and I'd not hesitate to take him out -hate that dog with a passion. He sneaks up behind you, chases the horses, mini donks, cats, etc... The only good thing to happen is that the horse and donkeys have kicked the snot out of him so that he no longer pulls their tails, etc... I found him in my goat pen once ( my bad for leaving my fence off)...and I chased that rotten dog away...but only for a day. The other day the dog's owner ( who we are on good terms with-they have helped us in the past)...told my son that he wished someone would "take that dog and shoot it". Hmmmmm. Ol rotten sharpei may not show up for evening slops some night in the future, now that we know the owner recognizes the dog is a no good bully.

I had a pitX adopt me one summer. He was totally unsocialized- I barely could tough him- but he followed me everywhere and behaved around our goats cats etc...he'd kill other peoples cats though. Long story short- he chased down and bit at my neighbor who had his lil daughter with him on a 4 wheeler. I could never give that dog to anyone else, he had become agressive and I could not control him. I asked two different neighbors to take him out when the moment presented itself and within 2 weeks he was missing. I never regretted that I gave that dog a good life nor did I regret that I had him put down before he hurt someone. Sometimes you do what needs done even if people wouldn't understand.

Should have heard the grief I got for having my son euth a beloved half grown cat that was hit by a car and suffering- and beyond repair. To have crated that cat, traveled with him for miles and miles to go to a vet and spend money we didn't have at the time... to the exact same end, would have been so much more stressful- but somehow because people fear guns, I was a coldhearted owner. 

scrt


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## Kiamichi Kid

tinknal said:


> Maybe this is OT but I cannot understand giving private animal welfare organizations legal enforcement powers. It just doesn't make sense. It would be like letting the KKK or NAACP enforce affirmative action laws.


I agree with you 100% !!!


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## birchtreefarm

BarbadosSheep said:


> no, killing the dog won't bring the dead sheep back to life. But it will prevent other sheep from becomming dead next time the dog gets loose. And trust me....there will be a next time. there always is.


Yes, especially in this case in ME. Because the dog didn't "escape." It was let loose to roam just like every other day, with only some friend nearby who was supposed to be watching it.

We had neighbors that had a hound mix of some sort who they would let out and he'd stay around their backyard maybe 10 minutes, then he'd take off. He'd go roaming all over the place, just following his nose. Luckily he didn't seem to be very predatory. And he would run from our dog who would chase him back home. But as he got older, he started getting bolder, and started coming into our yard and marking, and wouldn't run as easily. Instead of running off when you told him to "Go home!", he would stand there and bark at you. To me he was starting to exhibit signs of dominance aggression (and yes, he still had his testicles), and I was worrying about what was coming, and then the neighbors moved. The new neighbors have two dogs and they keep them under control.


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## BarbadosSheep

dogs that bother my sheep usually don't get a free pass. the exception to this are deer dogs (hounds). I have never had one of them even show a passing interest in anthing other than a place to rest for a while. I always chain them up and call their owner. I did make an exception recently for two gorgeous german shepherds that were chasing my sheep through the fence. They were well kept dogs and I felt like they belong to someone who did care about them. So we peppered them with bird shot (from a distance) and chased them HARD with the ATV. I think we scared them enough that they won't come back. We since found out they belonged to a fairly new neighbor on our street. Hubby had a chat with him and told him that folks in this are have a low tolerance for loose dogs and if he cares about his, he won't let them escape again. To my knowledge, he took the warning seriously and I have not seen the dogs back since. If they DO come back, they won't get a second chance.


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## Shayanna

posted a response to it on my blog. Just my opinion and my states laws, but if you are interested. somethingremembered


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## wendle

Great to see all the responses on this. I think this whole deal gives shepherds food for thought. Times can change and we have to pay attention. Here is a cause started for Bentley if anybody wants to post a comment. 
It might get deleted, but I think it's a good idea to share the shepherd side. I did. : ) . Maybe if enough do the pet people will think about it. 
Save Future Bentleys From Happening | causes.com


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## marytx

A year ago I was having trouble with my own young dog chasing my goats. We didn't shoot her, but I'm not going to say it didn't cross my mine. If it had been someone else's dog and I could not call her off, or get the owner immediately to do it, that might have been a different story.


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## tinknal

wendle said:


> Great to see all the responses on this. I think this whole deal gives shepherds food for thought. Times can change and we have to pay attention. Here is a cause started for Bentley if anybody wants to post a comment.
> It might get deleted, but I think it's a good idea to share the shepherd side. I did. : ) . Maybe if enough do the pet people will think about it.
> Save Future Bentleys From Happening | causes.com


Wow, what a bunch of clueless people mired in self denial!


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## gone-a-milkin

wendle said:


> Great to see all the responses on this. I think this whole deal gives shepherds food for thought. Times can change and we have to pay attention. Here is a cause started for Bentley if anybody wants to post a comment.
> It might get deleted, but I think it's a good idea to share the shepherd side. I did. : ) . Maybe if enough do the pet people will think about it.
> Save Future Bentleys From Happening | causes.com


So far they are leaving my comments up there.


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## CesumPec

gone-a-milkin said:


> So far they are leaving my comments up there.


I'm pounding the site as well.


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## Laura Workman

I put up a couple comments as well. Stupid owners! How sad for everyone - Bentley, the sheep, the farmer, and the owners themselves - just because of their irresponsible attitudes.


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## tinknal

Laura Jensen said:


> I put up a couple comments as well. Stupid owners! How sad for everyone - Bentley, the sheep, the farmer, and the owners themselves - just because of their irresponsible attitudes.


I've been giving them some grief too. That Radio guy is a piece of work.


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## Maverick_mg

Okay I couldn't just read this anymore. It was making me mad. So I went an commented. The dog shouldn't have been out.


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## grandma12703

Oh well they took mine down too.


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## Lazy J

I just read through the posts on several sites, I am amazed but not surprised by the comments by those supporting the dog owners. The blatant anthropomorphism displayed by many is astounding. Comments such as "He didn't mean any harm", or "He was just playing", of "He'd never hurt a sheep" bear evidence that our society is full of people who do not understand animals. 

I hope Mr. Straw does not have to deal with any incidences at his farm over this ordeal. Based on some of the imflammatory posts I read Facebook and other sites I would not be surprised to hear that Mr. Straw's farm was firebombed or attacked in a similar fashion.

Jim


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## Shayanna

I don't know about your states, but I do know in Michigan that you can shoot any dog that is worrying, chasing, or killing your livestock, no questions asked. Not just after the fact or "attacking".


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## Shayanna

Now, just a "what if" scenario, as I know you could sue for the damage done to the livestock... What if someone's dog attacked your Ram? or Buck (I own goats)? Your only sire for that matter. What about all the business you miss out on? The kids/lambs? The cost of a new sire?


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## harvestmoonfarm

And here is my story, which just happened last week.

Fluvanna Farm Owner Speaks Out after Dogs Attack her Livestock


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## ChristieAcres

harvestmoonfarm said:


> And here is my story, which just happened last week.
> 
> Fluvanna Farm Owner Speaks Out after Dogs Attack her Livestock


I am so sorry about the horrific nightmare you experienced and losing your goats, and the injuries to the remaining one! Your husband did the right thing and I think you should definitely go after the dog owners for the results of their dog's rampage on your farm. You are entitled to damages, even if it won't bring back your beloved goats or heal the one (s) who survived. An example must be publically set!

:grouphug: from all of us who are totally on your side and feel badly for you!


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## harvestmoonfarm

lorichristie said:


> I am so sorry about the horrific nightmare you experienced and losing your goats, and the injuries to the remaining one! Your husband did the right thing and I think you should definitely go after the dog owners for the results of their dog's rampage on your farm. You are entitled to damages, even if it won't bring back your beloved goats or heal the one (s) who survived. An example must be publically set!
> 
> :grouphug: from all of us who are totally on your side and feel badly for you!


Thank you. Most people have been very supportive, but we've had a few staunch dog lovers who have called us "evil dog killers." We have yet to hear from the owners, though they're telling everyone we knew where the dogs lived and shot them for just coming on our property. I've typed up a bill and have a lawyer reviewing it before it's mailed.

What people need to understand is that it's not only the financial burden something like this creates, but the psychological and emotional scars it leaves, as well. I'm still scared to go to the barn alone (I had a breakdown on the way there the day after), find myself crying at random times, can't sleep and, when I do, have nightmares. I am on edge and feel scared all the time. I spoke out to the media because I refuse to let my girls' deaths be in vain, and I want people to wake up and keep their dogs where they belong - on their own property!


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## CesumPec

gone-a-milkin said:


> So far they are leaving my comments up there.


at least a couple of my message are missing. I'm new to FB. Can they delete my comments or did I err somehow in posting them?


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## wendle

So far I have posted 3 times and it's still there, so maybe try again.


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## ChristieAcres

harvestmoonfarm said:


> Thank you. Most people have been very supportive, but we've had a few staunch dog lovers who have called us "evil dog killers." We have yet to hear from the owners, though they're telling everyone we knew where the dogs lived and shot them for just coming on our property. I've typed up a bill and have a lawyer reviewing it before it's mailed.
> 
> *I am glad to hear it! The Owners were irresponsible, so their dogs paid the price, and you paid a far higher price. Shame on them, hope they eat those words, and the Court throws the book at them (should it go that route).*
> 
> What people need to understand is that it's not only the financial burden something like this creates, but the psychological and emotional scars it leaves, as well. I'm still scared to go to the barn alone (I had a breakdown on the way there the day after), find myself crying at random times, can't sleep and, when I do, have nightmares. I am on edge and feel scared all the time. I spoke out to the media because I refuse to let my girls' deaths be in vain, and I want people to wake up and keep their dogs where they belong - on their own property!


Absolutely, even though I am a dog lover, they are DOGS. I'd dispatch my sweet dog Sam, in a heartbeat, if he became a nuisance (even on our property). If he ever attacked our chickens, bye bye Sam. He is a great dog, protects them, and has attacked other dogs who have come onto our property (protecting his critters). I hope you feel better soon, know it was a very traumatic event. You may need to go see a Counselor. Often folks don't realize a situation like this warrants one. You are in grief and also dealing with the aftermath of the event... Be sure and tell your Attorney if you decide to go. This should be another bill to present to the dog owners...


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## DaleK

tinknal said:


> I've been giving them some grief too. That Radio guy is a piece of work.


Kind of embarassing to be from the same town as him. We aren't all that braindead. Heck not even most of us are.


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## CesumPec

my messages on Save future bentleys keep getting deleted.


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## hillbilly123

Man o man I read that facebook post and all I can say is it sounds like the yuppies are uniting. Sad situation their dog died, but they cannot see their part in it. If they loved that dog they should have kept it home......


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## tinknal

DaleK said:


> Kind of embarassing to be from the same town as him. We aren't all that braindead. Heck not even most of us are.


I'm really starting to get under that Glenn fellers skin. He is cursing at me and threatening me, insulting me,...........it really is quite fun.


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## secuono

I would of shot the dog as well.


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## wendle

tinknal said:


> I'm really starting to get under that Glenn fellers skin. He is cursing at me and threatening me, insulting me,...........it really is quite fun.


I saw he was using bad language and name calling. That explains why they are working so hard at trying to lay all the blame on Straw.


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## DaleK

tinknal said:


> I'm really starting to get under that Glenn fellers skin. He is cursing at me and threatening me, insulting me,...........it really is quite fun.


You'd think a person like that would make sure their phone number and address weren't listed for everyone to find.


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## tinknal

DaleK said:


> You'd think a person like that would make sure their phone number and address weren't listed for everyone to find.


LOL, I suppose that could be a concern. He has nothing to fear from me, and even if I have something to fear from him I'm somehow unafraid!


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## Hairsheep

I killed a dog, this past summer who killed one of my geese...I would do it again....People need to take care of their animals, instead of letting them feed on mine!
I would have been VERY angry had it killed one of my Hair Sheep


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## triple divide

In my experienced opinion, from the information provided in the article, Bently was in what experienced dog handlers call "prey drive". 

Unsupervised adolescent (< 2 yrs.+/-, depending on breed)dogs move through their drive gears very swiftly. 

For example; play drive (indicated with the typical rompy, jumpy, rolling-on-the-ground, eyes and mouth wide open, tongue lolling out) leads to their chase drive. Have you ever pitched a ball,stick, or frisbee for a dog? Notice how the dog looks? (eyes & mouth open, running but not with exceptionally long strides)? Then, there is prey drive. It is a very short shift for dogs to make to get into this drive. The body of the dog seems to lengthen as the strides turn into long, powerful, dedicated strokes. The eyes narrow and the jaws are normally open, but not in the loose/playful manner of the play/chase drives. In this drive, the dog is so focused on its prey, they don't hear very well, or at least don't mind commands or pay attention to distractions. So, if the farmer gave off a few warning shots, I suspect Bently was in his "prey" drive. Too bad for him. I hope his master becomes a better dog owner after this. Sadly, I don't think he will. He's shown himself to not take responsibility for his neglectful attitude, instead looking to blame others for his complacent behavior.


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## FCLady

Our property borders a small village on 2 sides. Couple of years ago we had 2 large stray dogs from town tear through the chicken wire fence and attack our chickens. We had about 75 hens at the time. Chickens were flying everywhere trying to get away from the dogs who were chasing and biting them. One dog ended up shot dead in my hen house. My husband couldn't get a clear shot on the other one.

We felt terrible about the dead dog even with the circumstances. So we tried to do the "right" thing. Called the sheriff - they didn't want to come out. They said just dig a hole and bury it. Called the village police - same response. Called the dog warden, with no tags, they said the same thing. My husband went to town to try and find the dog's owner so we could give them the sad news about their dog. 

Later in the evening the dog's owner and the sheriff showed up. The same sheriff who told us to bury the dog now had to come out and make sure it was a "justified" shoot. We had to do a temporary fix on the fence to keep the chickens in. But the dog and chicken blood and feathers were still there. I had to check and remove any injured and bleeding hens (5). We were thankful there were no dead hens and more worried about the stupid dog. NOW the sheriff shows up! We were dumbfounded... Why is he coming now??? What did we do wrong?? The owner of the dog could sue us in a civil suit; he needed a police report to do so!!! The police report sided with us - we were defending ourselves, children and livestock. From now on it's - shoot, shovel, and shut-up!


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## holliehmstd

We don't have sheep yet, but we plan on it in the future. We just went to court to get restitution for a dog killing all of our chickens. We did not sure, just state laws. We were actually told by the deputy sherrifs on all three occasions to just shoot the dog but we don't have guns yet. Either way, we both agree with FCLady, shoot, and shut up! Unless a dog does a lot of damage - like in our case we lost our whole flock - they have to go.


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## arnie

Owning a dog or any livestock comes with responsibility as does owning a gun or battleship .man (or woman ) up to it .


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## bberry

Sad to see such poor manners on the part of the dog owner. There is a leash law in Maine and once the animal control officer knew the dog owner admitted to letting the dog loose then he should have by law given him a summons to court. Animal control officers are very lax about checking on loose dogs. If you have a complaint here the animal control officer wants a photo that is time and date stamped. We see them here in this town all the time loose. They have been known to kill chickens and penned rabbits by biting off the legs sticking down through the cage wire. Gruesome to say the least. Game wardens have a lot to do and chasing dogs is not their cup of tea. My neighbor has 11 dogs and they are loose almost daily. There are quite a few years when I see no baby deer and I would say those dogs are getting a good share of them. They of course do not eat them but play with them by nipping and shaking them. End result is a dead baby deer. Shame on our governor and legislature for allowing such poor control of dogs in our communities. While I love my dog there are not words that can describe the outrage at needless killing of domestic and wild game. Where is George Smith on this one? How about all the hunting organizations. Maybe they spend too much time inside watching TV.


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## sheepgurly

Luckily here it is legal to shoot any dog that is on your land period, they don't have to attack livestock first. Any dog (that's not ours) around our sheep will be shot on sight. It sounds harsh, but after what my SIL just went through we are not risking it. She just lost 11 bred ewes to her neighbours' dogs this spring. She was nice the first time...they came and killed 6 ewes and my SIL and her hubby caught the dogs, returned them home and told the neighbours what happened and to keep the dogs contained. 2 days later the dogs returned and killed 5 more before they got out there and shot the dogs.

It is sad for the dogs but it is not like the owners weren't warned and weren't aware of what the dogs were up to! Yet they still chose to not contain them. It stinks the dogs suffer for the owners' stupidity but what do you do? I would have shown up with the dead dogs and a bill for the sheep, but my SIL didn't want to start a war. So they did the shoot, shovel and shut up. I'm sure the neighbours probably know what happened but nothing had been said.

Luckily we have never had to deal with dogs. Our closest neighbours are 2 miles away and they have sheep as well, and there only dog is a Great Pyr like ours who lives with the sheep and has never visited so I don't worry much now. Coyotes are our biggest concern (over run with them!!) but our Pyr has been effective for those so far. We plan to get another next year as we are keeping back ewe lambs for the next few years to build our flock up bigger.

If I had a dog roaming and bothering livestock I would completely understand if he was shot and offer to pay for as much damage as I could. But as others have said, it's not just the money. Dogs are so cruel in how they kill sheep, it really traumatized my SIL as her pasture looked like a war zone. She tried to keep her kids inside and away from seeing before it was cleaned up but they were affected by it too. I think any of these owners going after farmers should go see the carnage and the poor sheep their dogs killed. I guarantee those dogs had a much kinder death than those sheep!


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## FarmerRob

From the article: "Brewer says, he can't imagine his dog attacking anything and just doesn't understand why the situation had to escalate to this, before animal control could step in." 

It escalated to this because HE FAILED to control his animal. Wait for animal control? Are you fraking kidding me? If he loved his family pet he should have kept it under control.

The dog did what dogs do. The fault clearly lies with the dog owner and his negligence. Bad dog owner, pure and simple.


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## bberry

Last I heard on this issue was that both sides had hired lawyers. Has anyone heard that it has gone to court?


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## CesumPec

bberry said:


> Last I heard on this issue was that both sides had hired lawyers. Has anyone heard that it has gone to court?


It may just be my bias showing, but I don't think the dog owner has a leg to stand on. Unfortunately, they can cost the farmer big $$$ while they lose their case.


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## Gritty

We've found paint ball guns to be an effective and clear way to send a message (both to the dog and the owner).


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## trainv

hi all having been there and done this several times, I want to share with you all. When ever dogs or other pedators get into your sheep, take care of the problem( shoot) on your property and then ALWAYS contact your Dept Of Livestock. They are an enforcement division of the state and will take care what local departments will not.


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## Slev

we've only had two problems here in the past 21 years. The first being a black Lab, kinda unsure of his intentions, but none the less, my sheep didn't care for him at all, so I grabbed the can of orange marker paint I had and painted a nice sized target on both sides of him, then we let him go... never saw that dog again! The other problem was yet another black Lab along with his buddy a German Shepherd and they did kill 4 of our sheep, injured several more and left my entire flock messed up to the point that it took a few months of a training breakm in training my Border Collies, as they had lost their understanding trust... My wife cornered those two dogs in our pasture with a shovel, and proceeded to call the dog catcher who at first was going to blow it off, until she said she'd just kill the dogs... He was out in about 20 minutes, the owners claimed their "pets" and their insurance company paid us ONLY for the 4 dead sheep and I think covered some shots for the rest of the flock... After that we got our Livestock Protection Dogs, and have NEVER had another problem, well wait a minute, we got the LPD's when we had a cougar attack one of our sheep, ...but since then... no problems...


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## StockDogLovr

I can't find the FB page, or I'd post on it, too!

All of my pets are my beloved fur children. I have sheep dogs and I have sheep. I lost a ewe and had lambs mauled by a neighbor's wolf hybrid. Funny, he would shoot his shotgun in anger whenever my dogs would bark during the couple of hours I would be there since I didn't live there, but then he wouldn't control his dog and I caught it red-handed in with my sheep. I called animal control and they came and took it away, never to be seen again. I didn't have a gun and he wasn't home.

We bought a property, our dream acreage, that had a perimeter fence that wouldn't hold any animal, including my dogs. We invested the money to redo the whole perimeter fence so that everyone could be safe. We live on a highway, and it was terrifying when one day, before the fence was done, my dogs chased a coyote out onto the highway and almost got hit. We dodged many bullets that day. I took them out on leash every day forward until that fence was done.

Bentley could have just as easily been hit by a car on his way to that farm. He died because his owner was irresponsible, one way or the other.


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## bberry

This needs to go to court so that the dog owners can see they are at fault. What about all the baby deer in the spring. Dogs running here find them and "play" with them untill they die. Several dogs running in a pack usually find both baby deer since they are not far apart. Sportsmen need to support Mr. Straw in his court action. I am going to contact different sporting groups to see if they can help bring this to court.


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## Maxpowers

Every state has their own laws, should be able to find them via google. With Michigans there's no point in going to court. The law clearly states you can kill any dog that is even doing so little as "worrying" livestock.

Michigan law only allows a law enforcement officer to kill a dog that is chasing deer.


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## clhend

For three years there was a pack of up to 16 feral dogs in our neighborhood. I lost over 40 chickens and one mini goat over that time to dogs finding a way to get through the fence. Called the county animal control several times; they were as frustrated as I was. Finally started shooting them. Several were caught. Others I'm sure were SSS, because it seems that most if not all have disappeared. 

Unfortunately, not all of the dogs were feral. A couple were pets allowed to run free. Everyone around me know, if their dog gets in my fenced and gated yard and starts chasing my animals. It'll end up dead.

Love dogs, but as a former dog owner I buried my dream dog in my garden when he got into the neighbor's yard and killed or maimed most of his rabbits. My responsibility. Up to be to ensure that never happened again. Shot the dog (broke my heart), replaced the rabbits.

So I've been on both sides, and totally side with the farmer or rancher no matter how big or small the number of animals raised. 

During the height of the battle I started a Facebook page: Texans Against Feral Dogs


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## trainv

SSS- BS!!! Here I give 1 warning, butt or where ever bird shot and after that the real thing- 17 Remington. Family dog or otherwise. I don't raise my lambs to feed someone elses dog nor do I allow my sheep to phone the dogs to come over for playtime. I keep my dog at home where she belong and others should do the same.


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## Zimobog

Speaking of this, I just had to call a neighbor up tonight. Caught his dog poking around the edge of my property and chased it all the way back to his place. I just told him the incident made me very.... very.... nervous. And please see that his dog is contained or chained.


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## J.T.M.

Im the only one within a 18 mile radius me who raises livestock but everyone knows that when you hear the crack of a rifle that it serves as a reminder to spay or neuter your pets ... and to check that they are where they belong .


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## lonestarbugout

There's a feral pack around here. They come through after my free range chickens. The girls are pretty quick.to disappear. At first the shotgun was fine. After the first couple of times they had the range. Shifted to the 22 with yellow jacket rounds. Last kill was at 75 yards off hand on a moving target. Saw them a few weeks ago a couple of miles down the road. To tell the truth they are a bit scarey. I no longer hesitate. They sure don't! I don't even bury them any more. Drag them to the south hill and the vultures clean them up in a couple of days.


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## SpaceCadet12364

Had to kill 2 here. One was a champion hunting dog (chocolate lab) killing my ducks. After that every hunter in the area came by and asked please don't kill my dog. My reply If it is chasing my livestock Wildey (as in .475 caliber) say's it is as good as dead. Ky law states if a dog kills your livestock the owner is liable for it and 3 generations of offspring. Large livestock can get expensive fast.


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## bberry

New law amends existing laws regarding penalties that apply to violations of the animal trespass law. It increases fines for repeated violations, clarifies restitution provisions, and establishes a process by which animals may be forfeited by repeated violations. 

Glad this came about since no one should be assaulted by another or his or her animals. I hope Mr. Straw gets payment for his losses.I have always found it strange that a person can think they have rights to use or destroy another person's property.


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## PricklyThistle

If you're a dog lover, and I am, you don't leave your dog running loose in livestock country. It would break my heart to kill someone's dog, but if they're running my sheep around, it's a predator at that point. Time to shoot.


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## bberry

I knew this was going to court. Does anyone have an update from that action?


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## grandma12703

I love my dogs but if someone would catch one of them chasing or harming their livestock I would expect them to take care of it. If I caught them chasing or harming other's livestock or mine I would take care of it. Ours are livestock guard dogs and we have never had a problem. Our only problem is that once in a while they want to guard outside the perimeter at which time they get into lots of trouble but have never chased other's livestock.


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## goto10

The promotion of violence in this community is really disappointing. Vigilante justice is frowned upon for a reason. Good luck to whoever decides to off someone else's pet because it scared or killed one of your animals. You'll never be reimbursed for your loss and you'll likely have other larger issues on your hands after that, especially if your neighbor feels the same way about revenge killing and zero tolerance for your animals on their property be it dog or sheep. If you're okay with your animals being shot because they've done wrong then they were expendable in the first place, why defend them? Accidents happen, its the way we deal with them that keeps us civilized. Not seeing that here.


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## Ziptie

Promotion of violence which way? An animal killing another innocent animal or a human killing an animal that is destroying your animal's?

Called the sheriff office once about some dogs killing our chickens (just so they would have it on record that there was a problem). A cop did come out several hours after my call(I was surprised that he even came out). Told me next time if an animal is attacking or killing us or our stock, shoot it, and he didn't want to know about it.


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## Alder

goto10 said:


> The promotion of violence in this community is really disappointing. Vigilante justice is frowned upon for a reason. Good luck to whoever decides to off someone else's pet because it scared or killed one of your animals. You'll never be reimbursed for your loss and you'll likely have other larger issues on your hands after that, especially if your neighbor feels the same way about revenge killing and zero tolerance for your animals on their property be it dog or sheep. If you're okay with your animals being shot because they've done wrong then they were expendable in the first place, why defend them? Accidents happen, its the way we deal with them that keeps us civilized. Not seeing that here.


In every state I know, the farmer has a legal right to kill a dog endangering his livestock. I've had a flock of sheep chased, torn up and killed by dogs. It is devastating and sickening. People need to control their dogs or face the consequences. And as someone else said, I'd expect the same treatment if one of my dogs was causing trouble with someone's animals.


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## aleefarms

1) There is no post here to suggest vigilante justice. Check Webster

2) As mentioned above, the law sides with the farmer on such cases. 

3) Warning of a neighbors revenge places you in a very suspicious place with that line of thinking

4) Who are you to tell this community if their animals are expendable. 

5) Accidents do happen but there are consequences for being irresponsible. That is what keeps us civilized. 

6) That's what I see here and I think I'll stay for a while. If you are disappointed in this community it's because you have warped preconceived ideas of the way life should be and how we should relate to the community.


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## Danaus29

Someone's "pet" is not worth near as much as productive livestock. And if the owner cares about their "pet" it should be kept home at all costs. Free range domestic animals are in much more danger from wild animal attacks or collisions with vehicles than they are from being shot for harassing livestock. 

People with the pet lover attitude above are why sss is so quickly and widely utilized. They probably feel the same way about a person killing a dog to protect a human. I've met people who feel their dog has the right to roam free and your child has no right to use your own yard when their dog is "harmlessly visiting".


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## njenner

In California, the law allows for recovery of attorneys fees for suing someone whose dogs killed livestock. That helps a lot.


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## goto10

crispin said:


> I have learned the SSS the hard way.
> 
> A while ago I had to shoot a dog that was killing piglets.
> 
> This dog (a Malamute) had a history of getting loose and killing chickens (a long history)
> 
> After it was found with 3 dead piglets it was put down.
> 
> I ending up posting it on another forum that I am on as I was stressed over the problems I was having with the neighbor over the matter.
> 
> Well some people on the forum went all crazy (not even sure of what to call them) and these people went so far to find out where I live and bombarded the local sheriffs office with calls and emails.
> 
> They sent an investigator to my home to file out a report on the matter. I was told that although it was not against the law to shoot any animal that is threatening livestock they needed to come out just due to the shear volume of calls and emails they were getting.
> 
> So I learned the hard way S S S


This is what commonly happens when you shoot someone else's dog and the other person feels it is not justified. It was posted in this thread as a reason for SSS. If you do feel having your own dog getting shot, is justified, you don't know how to train a dog. If you SSS, you get no reimbursement and the shooting was purely for spite or revenge, especially if your livestock has already been killed. Not to mention anyone that practices SSS has questionable integrity. You can talk your way around it, have like-minded people agree with you but violence begets violence. Dogs are also considered property AND livestock in many states. Let's not ignore that fact for the sake of convenience. This is why people can and do sue if their dogs are killed. But what do I know, this really isn't my demographic.


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## nostawmama

goto10 said:


> This is what commonly happens when you shoot someone else's dog and the other person feels it is not justified. It was posted in this thread as a reason for SSS. If you do feel having your own dog getting shot, is justified, you don't know how to train a dog. If you SSS, you get no reimbursement and the shooting was purely for spite or revenge, especially if your livestock has already been killed. Not to mention anyone that practices SSS has questionable integrity. You can talk your way around it, have like-minded people agree with you but violence begets violence. Dogs are also considered property AND livestock in many states. Let's not ignore that fact for the sake of convenience. This is why people can and do sue if their dogs are killed. But what do I know, this really isn't my demographic.


If you see a dog actively killing your livestock- what would you do? If you saw a dog actively killing your dogs, what should be done? Should you wait until your all your livestock is dead and then ask for reimbursement or should you wade into the fray to pull attacking dog from your animals or .... what? What is fair reimbursement for an entire bloodline that you have worked on for years? Is that going to be the same as what some random judge will agree too?

Where shooting dogs is attacking livestock, SSS is not illegal, nor morally wrong, IMO. You shoot to take care of the problem, shovel to take care of the dead, and shut up because there is really no reason to say anything! Do you think that people tell everybody everything that they do during the day? Esp. if they are bound to be criticized for it?


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## Woolieface

goto10 said:


> This is what commonly happens when you shoot someone else's dog and the other person feels it is not justified. It was posted in this thread as a reason for SSS. If you do feel having your own dog getting shot, is justified, you don't know how to train a dog. If you SSS, you get no reimbursement and the shooting was purely for spite or revenge, especially if your livestock has already been killed. Not to mention anyone that practices SSS has questionable integrity. You can talk your way around it, have like-minded people agree with you but violence begets violence. Dogs are also considered property AND livestock in many states. Let's not ignore that fact for the sake of convenience. This is why people can and do sue if their dogs are killed. But what do I know, this really isn't my demographic.


Seriously, imagine watching someone's dog tear into your flock of spring lambs. That's a year's worth of labor and expense, not to mention how horrifying it is to watch/listen to helpless animals being attacked like that. Ever hear a lamb scream when it's wounded? I don't know what kind of sorry shepherd would stand there and not protect his flock from something eating them.

I have a LGD and a house guard dog. The house dog is not livestock safe and she Never goes outdoors without being securely tethered. There's no good reason to let a dog who might chase or attack livestock roam free.


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## creeksidelc

Two things that I have learned regarding sheep and dogs. Both were learned the hard way. 1- unfortunately in the society we live in most pet owners will not take responsibility for their pets actions. They will deny their pet killed your sheep or if they do admit it they will not pay you for your losses. 
2- once a dog gets that taste for killing and chasing sheep it will continue to do so over and over again. 

My way of dealing with these 2 facts. When you find a dog attacking your sheep you kill it. You take the losses that it has caused but you can sleep well that night knowing that dog will never attack your sheep again. If you do not kill it that dog will continue to get out and attack your sheep repeatedly. I don't like killing dogs but I do like my sheep and the money I make off them much more than I do not like killing dogs. In a utopian world the neighbors would reimburse you and keep their dog locked up in the future. But unfortunately that is not the world we live in.


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## Maura

I came home one afternoon to find all of the herd quiet and not going out to pasture. I soon saw a little black lamb laying on the ground. That morning I had put the donkeys on the other side of the house to eat the lawn, separating them from the sheep. I never did that again. Had the DNR come and take the lamb. Later I was told it was a big dog. There was a bite, but they suspected the lamb was run to death. Lots of fun for the dog, not so much for anyone else. 

Since then I&#8217;ve had other dogs manage to get into the pasture. The donkeys have a hard time with little terriers because they dodge kicking and teeth, or when they get kicked they keep coming back. However, it&#8217;s usually pretty easy to call the dog over, get ahold of the collar and clip a leash on, then walk it out. I&#8217;ve had experience with two dogs that I took back to owners. Both were reptant. Never saw one dog again on my property. The other one, a large black Lab (and his cohort, a yellow Lab) kept coming back until the owner put in an underground fence. However, those two were later discovered a mile from home killing bunnies. The black one was shot and killed. The owner and killer were both sorry. But, the neighbor with the Labs got another big Lab puppy. **sigh**


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## Danaus29

And in most states any dog that is in the process of harassing, chasing, or killing livestock is to be considered vicious and may be immediately killed. This is under protection of laws in most states. Sure you can sue the owners after the fact (and most owners will deny it was their dog, even when said dog is still on the livestock owners premises) but the dog owner can drag their feet and stall and claim financial hardship which prevents the livestock owner from ever getting reimbursement.

In reality there is no way to keep a livestock killer from coming back without eliminating the problem.

And since some people don't believe livestock owners have any right to protect their animals, I suggest they make extra sure their dogs never ever leave their property.


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## Ronney

I haven't read every post on this thread but many are sensible and common sense, others are utter rubbish - gotto10, I can't get my head around the fact that you think a dog worrying, maiming or killing somebody's livestock is acceptable. I suspect you might feel somewhat differently if they were yours.

New Zealand has quite clear laws regarding both the control of dogs and what happens when they are found worrying/killing stock on another property. They would appear to coincide with many of your States but there is no risk of being sued. We are an agricultural country, it is our number one earner and dogs killing 1 sheep or over 100 sheep at a time are not to be tolerated. If they are caught, they are shot and there is no shut up about it either. They are left where they were shot, animal control is called in and if the dogs were registered, the owner is faced with it. If they're not registered the owner is often still traced and still has to front up. 

We don't need LGD's here so they don't come into the equation but *all *dogs must be under control at *all *times. This means that the owner of the dog must be with it and if that isn't possible, it has to be kennelled, indoors or behind dog-proof fencing. All dogs must be contained at night. Quite simple and if your dog is found roaming and worrying, the onus of responsibility is on you, the owner, not the owner of the stock. If your dog happens to be an expensive pedigree the attitude is that it should have been looked after better.

I've had dog worrying and killing and it's awful - sheep with their throats torn out but not dead, sheep with their back legs half torn off but not dead, sheep drowned in the river trying to escape with the back of their heads, neck and ears peeled back, sheep with holes in them large enough to put your closed fist into - and you think that's ok gotto10? And I got the dog!

With your risk of suing, keep on with your SSS. Once a worrier, always a worrier, and the next step is the killing. 

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## fishhead

The fault always lies with the dogs owner.

It's my responsibility to protect my animals and I will but there's no reason that virtually any dog can't be trained to leave stock or chickens alone. I've got some highly prey driven (but not so highly trained) bird dogs but I've always been able to train them to leave my chickens alone. I do it with my voice and the command 'leave it". It takes a while but they always learn.

A better solution might be for the owner to invest in a shock collar and then put them in a situation where they are tempted to chase. Put a long rope on them if you don't think they will respond immediately so you can physically control them. Zap them as many times as necessary until they learn to not chase. A $150 shock collar would save a lot of dogs and a lot of neighbor relationships. Seems pretty cheap to me considering every trip to the vet is $100-$200 and food is $40/month.


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## wr

fishhead said:


> The fault always lies with the dogs owner.
> 
> It's my responsibility to protect my animals and I will but there's no reason that virtually any dog can't be trained to leave stock or chickens alone. I've got some highly prey driven (but not so highly trained) bird dogs but I've always been able to train them to leave my chickens alone. I do it with my voice and the command 'leave it". It takes a while but they always learn.
> 
> A better solution might be for the owner to invest in a shock collar and then put them in a situation where they are tempted to chase. Put a long rope on them if you don't think they will respond immediately so you can physically control them. Zap them as many times as necessary until they learn to not chase. A $150 shock collar would save a lot of dogs and a lot of neighbor relationships. Seems pretty cheap to me considering every trip to the vet is $100-$200 and food is $40/month.


Certainly the fault lies with the owner and while I train mine carefully, I've had to deal with less involved owners a time or two and they aren't overly interested in training tips because their usual belief is that their dog wouldn't do such a thing or it never leaves the yard. 

I'm not fond of the idea of having to shoot someone's dog and will do whatever I can to avoid it but if I have to make a choice between my livestock and someone's pet, I'm going to protect my hard earned investment.


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## Ross

Be the better neighbor as best you can. Shooting a neighbors dog should be the least best option. True sometimes you don't have the luxury of choosing, but when you can make the effort to simply catch the dog and return it; you're both saving a lot of animosity and proving you're a reasonable (generously so) person. Do protect your livestock though.


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## ksfarmer

Once upon a time I came home to hear a disturbance in the sheep pen, grabbed the shotgun and found neighbors 2 labs after my sheep, (injuries to 3 of them) , I fired one shot in the air and yelled at the dogs, they ran, as they went through the gate I fired a second shot at the tail end of the dogs. Told my neighbor (whom I was on good terms with), he didn't think it could have been his dogs. Told him that whoever s dogs, one had some birdshot in its tail end. A few days later the neighbor stopped by and apologized, seems his dog was a bit lame and the vet removed some birdshot. The good thing about this whole story is that those dogs never came on my farm again and the neighbor and I remained friendly.


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## Jreed

I got 125 plus lbs that says I wont even have time to shoot a nuisance dead, and why my terriers are sheep socialized


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## Bearfootfarm

> This is what commonly happens when you shoot someone else's dog and the other person* feels* it is not justified. It was posted in this thread as a reason for SSS.
> If you do *feel* having your own dog getting shot, is justified, you don't know how to train a dog. If you SSS, you get no reimbursement and the shooting was purely for spite or revenge, especially if your livestock has already been killed.
> 
> Not to mention anyone that practices SSS has questionable integrity. You can talk your way around it, have like-minded people agree with you but violence begets violence.
> 
> Dogs are also considered property AND livestock in many states. Let's not ignore that fact for the sake of convenience. This is why people can and do sue if their dogs are killed. But what do I know, this really isn't my demographic.


You should be happy you don't live in NC, where the law says if your dog kills or harasses livestock, YOU have to kill it. 

If you refuse, anyone else can do so legally, even on your property.

If a dog gets shot chasing livestock, it's because the dog owners didn't keep it at home

Don't blame the farmers for protecting what is theirs, and don't pretend anyone is "promoting violence" because that's simply not true

We are promoting responsible dog ownership


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## COWS

I'm not a sheep owner. I'm also not a dog owner. I do have a suggestion. If you have livestock subject to predation, Put up some electric fence. My electric fence around my garden has 2 strands close to the ground, like about 3 and 8 inches high to keep ***** out of the corn. I have another strand chest high to keep deer out. I have put strips of aluminum foil on the upper wire with peanut butter on them to get the deer's attention. So far, so good. To keep predators away from livestock, I would recommend 3 strands, 4, 8, and 18 inches across the ground. If it's the neighbors Fido that's causing trouble, I would try a few strips of raw bacon wrapped around the wire. I don't know what spacing is needed to keep sheep or goats in. The neighbor's with dogs could do about the same to keep their dogs IN, but maybe that's wishful thinking.

COWS


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## Danaus29

fishhead said:


> The fault always lies with the dogs owner.
> 
> It's my responsibility to protect my animals and I will but there's no reason that virtually any dog can't be trained to leave stock or chickens alone. I've got some highly prey driven (but not so highly trained) bird dogs but I've always been able to train them to leave my chickens alone. I do it with my voice and the command 'leave it". It takes a while but they always learn.
> 
> A better solution might be for the owner to invest in a shock collar and then put them in a situation where they are tempted to chase. Put a long rope on them if you don't think they will respond immediately so you can physically control them. Zap them as many times as necessary until they learn to not chase. A $150 shock collar would save a lot of dogs and a lot of neighbor relationships. Seems pretty cheap to me considering every trip to the vet is $100-$200 and food is $40/month.


And if all dog owners were as responsible for their dogs as you are there would not have to be cases where "pets" are shot in the process of killing livestock.


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