# Bull broke thru our fence



## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

I need help. I figure you guys would know the best way for me to do this. You guys know everything.

The neighbors 2500 lb Charolais bull came right thru the fence today. 4 strands of tight new barbed wire, field fence, posts and trees. I was doing my morning feeding and saw him standing over my wonderful Jersey girl milk cow down in the field. Jersey Girl is only about 700-800 lbs, milking twice a day, this birth was her first. She is a perfect small Jersey, the best you could ever ask for. We didn't want to breed her back to quickly, and wanted to wait for a warm weather baby next year. My DH milks her at 4:45 am and the bull was no where around.

I called the neighbor, I called my cows, Jersey and our 900 steer, both totally tame. I got the steer first roped his horns and tied to the barn rail. He is used to that. I popped the grain feeder and Jersey Girl got up to come to me, fell down, got up again, and finally started walking up the hill to me. He was right behind her, as big as a conversion van. If he got touching her she laid down. She did not want him. She came into the barn right up to the bucket and I, on the other side of the little wall, got the rope on her horns. Whew. He touched her again and she laid down there in the stall with her horns tied to the post. And I yelled and got the bull to back off.

Neighbor came and drove his bull back thru the downed fence with a gun. I have been crying all day. I had to lock up the cows while I fixed the fence. He got his bull into a steel pen down there. Jersey Girl was hunched like she was bred, and dripping clear stuff back there, but ok, standing ok. She was hunched for several hours. After I got the fence fixed I let them back out in the pasture to walk her. I only have the stalls, to lock them up in, and they are never locked up. She seems to be walking ok, a bit off, a bit sore, maybe gimpy. I am beside myself with worry and fear of her being bred by him.

My good friend called the vet for me but they didn't call back today. I have to call in the morning. Tell me about the shots. Is there only one kind, and how soon does it have to be given? Can I wait 18 days to see if she comes back in, and hopefully not have to give the shot? I read about them but can't find enough info. I will have to dump the milk for 2 weeks if she gets the shot. We already have a bull lined up, and the shot will bring them into heat, but is it a real heat? Wait 18 days if no heat give the shot? Is there choices for shots? When she is in heat, the steer lets us know, and they were doing nothing the last couple days at all. Of all the cow friends I called today, no one had ever had to use the shot.

And bad news is, the neighbor is not going to keep the bull penned up past tomorrow. I am sick, we have good fences and a wonderful quiet little farm, and now this. Her barn is in the front yard, but her barn blocks the view of her bottom pasture, and the bottom fence line. I will be on the look out all day tomorrow.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

I, personally, wouldn't wait for the neighbor to come up next time. I'd have my shotgun ready and my grill hot. There's no reason for them to NOT keep him penned when this is a known problem. As far as I would be concerned they accept the risk of him being taken down when they chance him busting down your fence and compromising your herd. 

I'd also insist they pay for any vet expenses you incur.


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

I did call and warn him not to let the bull out of the pen tomorrow, but it was like talking to a wall. I am beside myself with anger and worry.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

A spanking hot electric fence until after she is bred back properly, to keep her safe. 

Dont know about the shot, I am sure your vet will tell you all you need to know.

Around here, a bull like that doesn't last long. Once they get to the point of walking through fences, it is time for a new young one. Hopefully your neighbor will do the right thing.


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## MARYDVM (Jun 7, 2004)

The Lutalyse injection can be given at any time to abort a pregnancy. 
You might as well wait 21 days to see if she comes back in heat on her own before using it. 
You do NOT have to throw out her milk if you use it - it is a natural hormone, so there is no withholding time required. 
You do need to have a plan to keep your cow safe next time she comes in heat. Can you lock the cow in the barn? The Lutalyse injection would be helpful there - you could lock her in 24 hours after the shot and keep her confined for at least 3 days to be on the safe side.
Or maybe a few strands of hot wire on the outside of your fence would discourage the bull. 
If she's pregnant, you can also wait a couple of months before giving the shot. Losing a calf that early doesn't affect their fertility next time in heat, and it would keep her safe from the neighbor bull's repeat attack for a little longer.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

I agree with the suggestion of keeping a HOT wire between your pasture and the bull. A hot wire is usually the only thing that will keep a bull away from a cow in heat. Your vet can tell you the best time for giving the shot. I would probably do it right away, but whatever your vet says will probably be the best. I would also try to monitor my cow and check the date for her next heat. It would pay to keep her up in the lot during the days she is in heat until you can get her bred to the bull of your choice.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

When did your cow calve? It usually takes 45 days after calving before they come back into heat.


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## Shoupie (Mar 21, 2009)

Poor baby.

If you have boys or tomgirls I'd arm them with paintball guns and tell them to shoot on sight.


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

Thanks Mary for info on the shot. Waiting to see if she even took would be my first choice. If she does not come into heat, and she is given the shot, is it usually a real heat that the shot brings on? And if she is in after the shot, when she comes in, chances are she will take? Does the shot make them act funny or wild? Tink, yes it has been over 45 days since she calved.

It is way too far down there to get hot wire on his side of the fence, and that bull would just walk through it anyway. He is way too large to be loose in a field. He is way past the size and age of being able to keep him in any field. His cows stay down at the bottom at his farm. I have no neighbors up here, his bull has to walk 1/2 mile up the hill to my fence. It is all woods down at the fence line and I couldn't see his cows unless they were right at the fence in the woods. He knows I have a milk cow up here and I didn't know his big bull was loose. My Jersey Girl makes no noise when she is in, she does not bellow.

My cow barn is like a big loafing shed. The bull owner said that would not be good enough locked in there, as his bull would push the stall walls right down, that he could walk through a barn wall. He wanted me to walk Jersey all the way down the hill and put her in his barn instead of penning up his bull. Of course I said no. I check on my cows many times during the day, as they are only 50 feet from my porch. I give them hay during the heat of the day so they stay in the cool barn.

I agree, a bull of that size and strength can not be loose. No one I know would let a bull of that size out of a pen. The fence on the downhill side is over 5 feet, tight barbed wire, on trees and posts.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Cindy, I can't help you with the drug of choice for aborting/bringing back on heat as I've never had to use it and I think the best thing to do would be to ring your vet and discuss this with them.

This bull/boundary fencing bit is a world wide problem and I suspect you need to talk to your local authorities as to what the law is and your rights under these circumstances.

Legal requirement in NZ for boundary fencing in minimum 7 wire post and batten fencing with both land owners paying half each of the cost. Electric on outriggers is fine by one or both parties and that cost is covered by whichever party installs it. 

If a farmer finds that he has no option but to graze bull/s on the boundary line there is an "unwritten" law that he rings his neighbours and lets them know - this gives the neighbours the option of removing unbred cattle from their side of the boundary. It is not a legal requirement, it is a traditional courtesy.

If a bull were to break through the fencing and have his way with the cows, or even if he didn't, the farmer has the legal right to:

Bill the offending farmer for veterinary fees to abort cows.
Bill the offending farmer for grazing.
Bill the offending farmer for labour and time taken to muster cattle and cut out the bull.
Bill the offending farmer for damage done to the fence.
Impound the bull.
If the offending farmer refuses to pay the costs, and they can be substantiated, he can then be taken to court - and he rarely wins.

If your neighbour was mine I would be reading him the riot act. It is his responsibility to keep his bull confined within his boundaries, yours to keep your cow confined within yours which you have done.

Come on you guys, I don't know American law but there must be something to cover this situation. Can somebody point Cindy in the right direction?

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

Thanks Ronny. I did call him again this morning telling him he cannot let the huge beast out of the pen. He said he would leave him locked up a few days. I don't want to fight with anyone. We will keep a close watch that the bull stays penned up. I would not trust the thing even if I had no cow in heat. At least I know he is locked up today and I can breath again. One day at a time. And I can wait 18 days and pray she comes back into heat.


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

I have to ask why YOU fixed the fence and not him? It's his bull that broke through. It's his duty to keep it from happening again. So if anyone should be running hot wire, it should be him. Surely there is another field where he can keep this bull? 

No matter how friendly you wish to stay, you NEED to bill him for any vets fees incurred so that he takes this matter seriously. You need to let him know you are mad as heck about this, and do not want your Jersey bred to his bull.

Hope things work out.


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## matt_man (Feb 11, 2006)

The bull won't be back until your cow is in heat again, that is the only reason why he came up this time. Penning him up for the next two days isn't going to make any difference because your cow is no longer in heat so she's no longer on his radar. 

I would go with the assumption that she is bred (she most likely is) and get some lutelyse from the vet and plan on giving it to her in a couple of weeks. If it were more expensive, I would say bill the neighbor but it only costs about $5. You can give her one shot and then in a week give her another and she should come back into heat about 3 days after the second shot. Then take her to whatever bull you wanted to breed her to. You should get an early May calf. She might not have a breedable, fertile heat after the first shot but the one following should be.

This bull very well could have broken her hips or pinched nerves and nearly paralyzed her. I would be very clear with your neighbor of this fact. The way that she fell down a few times after you noticing them together is proof to me that this bull is WAAAYY to big for her and if this happened again, there could be serious problems.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

You guys need to get with the real world. Stuff like this happens!! Your neighbor has as much right to run whatever bull he wants, as you do to run whatever bull (or cow) you want. If you have a cow come in heat, that bull is going to be interested. A 4 wire fence is really nothing to a bull when a cow is in heat on the other side of it. Electric should solve the problem, put it up now while your cow is not in heat so he gets used to the idea BEFORE you might need it again. Just remember, before you condemn the neighbor for having his bull get out, it could happen to you too. Cows and steers have been known to escape too! At least it sounds like you have a neighbor that cares a bit for what is going on. 

As far as the bull being too big, we run 2000+ lb bulls all the time. As long as they are handleable, we keep them. They are too expensive to replace, just because they grow up. If they get dangerous to handle, that is a different story. A little bull is just as likely (often more likely) to cause problems as a big bull. And, as far as calving ease, actual weight of the bull doesn't mean anything.

Now as for lutalyse. It is a pretty commonly used and safe drug. You need to wait about a week before you give it though, or it won't work. It will bring your cow back into heat, which will be a normal heat. I think you can AI her on it, but not 100% sure on that as we have never wanted to do so on anything we aborted. So you will want to check that out. Also, it is not expensive to do.


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## Timberline (Feb 7, 2006)

Ronney said:


> If your neighbour was mine I would be reading him the riot act. It is his responsibility to keep his bull confined within his boundaries, yours to keep your cow confined within yours which you have done.
> 
> Come on you guys, I don't know American law but there must be something to cover this situation. Can somebody point Cindy in the right direction?
> 
> ...


Ronnie, that depends on which state you're in. Colorado and a lot of the western states are fence out states. Lots of open range country and you have the responsibility to fence others' cattle out of your property. I don't about the op's state.

I've had to use lutalyse before and it did not affect the cows' behavior.


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

Charolais calves tend to be large. Just a heads up in case you didn't know.
And I totally agree that *he* should have fixed the fence and also put electric up.
He let you, a female, fix the fence that his bull trashed. That is shameful. Your husband should have a little talk with him about that. Around here it's just assumed that you will fix any fence you are responsible for damaging.
If I were you I'd tell him that if you see the bull on your property again you'll shoot him. We recently lost a valuable Dexter bull due to him jumping out to follow a cow that was loose, in heat and far from home. Can't really fault the guy that shot him, the bull was walking towards him and he freaked out. He had an impressive set of horns and even though he was dead gentle he did look scary.
Your cow cannot handle having that bull's calf, and he's likely to injure her if he hasn't already. I would take her to the vet if she continues to wobble or fall, then bill him for it if something shows up.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Here is the fencing law for Kentucky as of 1942. It may have been repealed. I would print it out and show it to the neighbor. 

http://law.justia.com/kentucky/codes/256-00/080.html


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

Luckily Kentucky is not open range.

http://law.justia.com/kentucky/codes/256-00/010.html

http://law.justia.com/kentucky/codes/256-00/080.html


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

randiliana said:


> And, as far as calving ease, actual weight of the bull doesn't mean anything.
> 
> .


I disagree.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

A Charolais is a big-boned breed, therefore it stands to reason he would throw a larger calf, not what I would want for a Jersey. The weight of the bull has a lot to do with injuring a cow when mounting her.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

My cattle experience is way in the past and we raised beef cattle on the ranch, did not have dairy cows. What I can say for sure is that a Jersey cow should not be bred to a Charolais bull ... big boned and broad head ... absolutely a disaster waiting to happen.

When ranchers in our area were experimenting with the crossbreds for the first time, back in the 60s one of our neighbors bred Hereford and Angus cows to Charolais bulls and had a LOT of those big beef cows that had trouble ... had to pull a lot of calves and some C-sections.

Do you have a shotgun? I think that would be my first thought in this scenario.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Shoupie said:


> Poor baby.
> 
> If you have boys or tomgirls I'd arm them with paintball guns and tell them to shoot on sight.


This has GOT to be the worst single piece of advise I have EVER read on this board. The bull would kill them.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

I would shoot him if he comes back - say, as would certainly be the case - you feared for your life. That would be the end of that.

Yes, the bull is just doing what is natural to him, but the owner should, at least, have hot wire to shock the blazes out of him if he touches it. 4 strands of barbed wire? I mean, here, in WV, that doesn't even measure up to the code of uncastrated bulls and the fence they have to be kept behind.


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

tinknal said:


> This has GOT to be the worst single piece of advise I have EVER read on this board. The bull would kill them.


Glad somebody picked up on that!!


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

ksfarmer said:


> Glad somebody picked up on that!!


When they are done annoying the bull they could poke a stick in a hornets nest.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

It looks like this thread may be headed for derailment. You can stir up a hornets' nest in more ways than one.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Well this guy is wrong all the way around on this one, he needs to have his bull shot , then give him a call, not a darn thing he can do about it. You were in fear for your life and your cows, shoot the darn bull.>Thanks marc


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## mamahen (May 11, 2002)

Didn't someone post here before that Jerseys can have larger calves? I thought for sure I'd read that here. Could you ask what size calves his were, off of this bull? 

You received good advice about the shot. 

As for a repeat....unless you keep your cow under lock and key, and constant survielence, there's not much you can do. I guess I would be more worried that he injured her breeding her. And if I read right, you were, too. That is one big brute to be on a petite Jersey girl!

When do you plan on breeding her again? Once she's bred, bully-boy will loose interest. And maybe he'll be gone by the time she's back in heat next year?

Could you ask the farmer when he thinks he'll be done using that bull? I don't understand why he was out in the pasture, was he breeding his cows now? I know my neighbors only put their bull out in the regular fence for a month (or until all cows are done cycling). Then he gets put back in "lockdown".

Any animal that large is dangerous while loose, cow, horse, elephant. You'd think he'd be a little more upset that he was loose.

Good luck!


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

YOU have a open cow you don't want bred, YOU need to have the facilities to keep her from getting bred. It really doesn't matter what the law is.


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

mamahen said:


> Didn't someone post here before that Jerseys can have larger calves? I thought for sure I'd read that here. Could you ask what size calves his were, off of this bull?
> 
> You received good advice about the shot.
> 
> ...


Not charolais calves. It should never be done, but the op said her cow is on the smaller side.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Jersey`s in general will have smaller calves, I wouldn`t want a cross with that bull. And as far as I know if your cow is in your pasture, his bull shoudn`t be in yours. Thats kinda like ok Moms keep your daughters home tonight our sons are going to be out and about, not my fault if your daughters are in town at the same time.>Marc


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

Allen W said:


> YOU have a open cow you don't want bred, YOU need to have the facilities to keep her from getting bred. It really doesn't matter what the law is.


That makes no sense at all.
Suppose you had a teenaged daughter you didn't want to get pregnant. Then some man comes to *your place* and rapes her. So would that be your fault because the facilities didn't keep her safe? Does the law make a difference?


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Cliff, I think you and I are on the same page.>Thanks Marc


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Yep, I agree with Cliff and Marc 100%


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

Please please get your vet out to abort right away. I lost a cow to calving a too big calf...please don't wait.
Bill the owner of the bull for any vet services and fence repairs. He may or may not pay, but he needs to know what is going on is HIS responsibility.
If she was bred today, his bull wont "likely" be a problem until she comes back into heat.
I am dealing with a similar issue here. We live on a ranch where the owners contract most of the land to graze cattle. I have a small Jersey heifer that is just about ready age wise for breeding, but she is very small...and the 3 bulls are very large Angus. Every time she comes in heat, we lock the place down...we keep her in her small paddock that is 2 hot fences (and barbed wire or wood rail) away from the bulls.
I am so sorry this has happened. I will keep you and your girl in my thoughts and prayers.
Trisha


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

Thanks you guys so much. And Mistletoad for the link. It says Double Damages on the second offense. A notice and then a lien of cattle on the next offenses. Of course I don't want a feud, then I would be worried about my cows and ponies. I don't believe any animal that large should be loose to walk through fences at will or scare anyone or other animals. We have traffic down there by the road, he could easily cross the street to those cows and something horrible could happen.

Jersey Girl is ok today, not trotting, but walking ok. She milked ok last night and this morning. They are very quiet today. I think they are still scared as I am. You know our barns and pastures are our home, we always feel safe here. Until yesterday. I am still having panic attacks, breaking down, crying. It was too much, way too scary. I acted out of anger and a protection mode yesterday, and today it has drained me. I feel as if it was a home invasion and I was home alone. I am very thankful the worst did not happen. 

I can shoot the 22, but I am afraid to shoot the shotgun because I don't know how. I am afraid it will break my arm or my face. I am a skinny girl.

Marc and Cliff, I have to agree. If we were raising several Jersey heifers and had a small Jersey bull, I should be able to raise them without fear of a Giant Beast coming to rape and kill my girls. This is exactly why we wanted small cows. And thank you guys for more info on the shots, this is what I needed to do the best thing for her in the right way.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

It is called taking responsibility for your decisions. They decided they didn't want the cow bred and knowing that the neighbor ran cattle on the other side of the fence. It should have been expected that the bull would be there when the cow was in heat.

Those of you advocating shooting the bull would found yourselves very unwelcome in this part of the world.


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

Well for starters get some slugs for the shotgun. The 22 will only ---- him off. If you do need to shoot the slugs you will be so pumped you will not even feel it. Secondly with most states with cattle the bull owner is the one to be held liable for any and all damages done. The owner needs the hot wires on his side of the fence not yours. Flat out tell him that the damage has already been doen to your jersey. Next time he is across teh line he is dead. Jerseys are jknowen as they age to have hip problems. Even though she is young you will notice at a older age she will start to have a limp and will progressivly get worse.
As to Mary's advice. Why don't you tell her Mary as to what the chances are that the jersey will breed back after giving the injections. Hardly any vets will recommend them due to teh high percentage of the cattle will nto breed back due to the drug.
A jersey can have a elephant. The has been much decussion on here as to the calving ablity of a jersey. I personally had one cow have calves over the 100 mark.
Bob


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Allen W, I think the bull owner also must take responsibility for his bull on the most part. I`m only advocating shooting the bull if the neighbor doesn`t keep him home, he could easily have hurt this lady. She is only protecting what is hers, same as if the neighbors dog was killing her chickens, she has rights to not be fearfull in her own yard.>Thanks Marc


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

Madsaw said:


> A jersey can have a elephant. The has been much decussion on here as to the calving ablity of a jersey. I personally had one cow have calves over the 100 mark.
> Bob


But this is not always the case...and I would dare to say often is not the case. If it were me, I would not take the chance, but then again, I have been down that terrible road before.
Trisha


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## oneokie (Aug 14, 2009)

If the cow is bred, an injection of Lute will cause her to abort.

As to the other advice posted;

#1 someone will go to jail.

#2 someone will wind up in court.

or both


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## jBlaze (Dec 26, 2007)

My only comment is that you be prepared when/if she does come back into heat. 

As wrong as it is, and whoever should be responsible, the same thing could likely happen again when/if she comes back in unless you can find a way to prevent it. Maybe you can coordinate wit him to have the bull in a secure area for the week she is due to come back in season?? 

We can discuss who is responsible, but in the end, you need to be sure your cow is safe, even if keping his bull penned is his responsibilty. Shooting the bull after the fact won't help your cow at the time. 

Hugs!


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

randiliana said:


> You guys need to get with the real world. Stuff like this happens!! Your neighbor has as much right to run whatever bull he wants, as you do to run whatever bull (or cow) you want. If you have a cow come in heat, that bull is going to be interested. A 4 wire fence is really nothing to a bull when a cow is in heat on the other side of it. Electric should solve the problem, put it up now while your cow is not in heat so he gets used to the idea BEFORE you might need it again. Just remember, before you condemn the neighbor for having his bull get out, it could happen to you too. Cows and steers have been known to escape too! At least it sounds like you have a neighbor that cares a bit for what is going on.


That's what I was thinking actually. 
I mean, I sympathize. Truly. We have two small, yearling heifers in our little pasture and right across the road are three of the neighbor's Hereford bulls, out with cows. I really don't want my girls bred this year because of their small size. 
But at the same time, should the bulls decide to walk through the fences (which happens), it wouldn't be my _neighbor's_ fault! They aren't dogs, afterall...

But this might be a perspective thing. 
I'm a cattleman's wife, and this is ranch country. :shrug: 


So far as those suggesting shooting him, you'd better make sure to shoot to _kill_! I've seen a full grown bull, on the fight, take 5 shots from a .243 and kept coming before a couple of .30-06 shots dropped him. I would _not_ mess around with a ton of wound-up hormones. 
Again, this might be a perspective thing...


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

ErinP said:


> That's what I was thinking actually.
> I mean, I sympathize. Truly. We have two small, yearling heifers in our little pasture and right across the road are three of the neighbor's Hereford bulls, out with cows. I really don't want my girls bred this year because of their small size.
> But at the same time, should the bulls decide to walk through the fences (which happens), it wouldn't be my _neighbor's_ fault! They aren't dogs, afterall...
> 
> ...


I don`t know why it is any differant than a neighbors dog, an animal is an animal, and you have got to keep them in where they belong, you are responsible for that animal. And as far as the bull goes he comes across my pasture one last time, deer slugs will do it, right in his tracks. >Thanks marc


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

springvalley said:


> I don`t know why it is any differant than a neighbors dog, an animal is an animal, and you have got to keep them in where they belong, you are responsible for that animal. And as far as the bull goes he comes across my pasture one last time, deer slugs will do it, right in his tracks. >Thanks marc


Any state I've ever lived, fence out or fence IN, btw, so long as the owner has made a _genuine_ effort to contain his livestock, he would not be liable. 
Ie, there's a difference between a known fence-crawler and a bull following hormones on the breeze.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

This reminds me of a local lady who complained about cattle getting in her garden.

In the same conversation she complained about her dogs bringing home large bones from some other persons yard.

She said that it should be illegal to have something enticing her dogs to stray from home and that all bones and such should be burried after butchering.

I joked that it should be illegal for people to grow such tasty gardens that enticed cattle to stray from their pasture.


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## KIT.S (Oct 8, 2008)

In Linn County, Oregon, the maximum fine for having an animal get through the fence is $6700 AND 15 months in jail. The animal doesn't have to do any damage to anything else, the owner doesn't get any notice, there isn't necessarily a second chance. The owner goes to court, makes his statements, and the judge decides what the fine and jail time will be. Here, if someone complains that the animal got out, the sherriff will appear at the owner's house. 
If the bull's owner wasn't being cooperative, I would contact the sherriff. Just because the bull is back in his pen, it isn't too late to make the statement of what happened, and the sherriff may deter the bull's owner from ignoring the situation. I do know about this, from two 30 pound piglets scooting through a bad spot into the grumpy neighbor's scrub oak for a total of 20 minutes.
Good luck. 
Kit


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Erin, so would it also be true if your bull got out and I hit him on the road, you hold no resposability?>Marc


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Exactly.

Unless he was a known fence-crawler, that is. Or fences were known to be in disrepair. Etc. There has to be neglect on the landowner's part. 
(On the converse, you the driver would hold no fault either, though there are those who'd argue for that, too.  )
Hormones do not count as neglect.


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## MARYDVM (Jun 7, 2004)

"As to Mary's advice. Why don't you tell her Mary as to what the chances are that the jersey will breed back after giving the injections. Hardly any vets will recommend them due to teh high percentage of the cattle will nto breed back due to the drug.
A jersey can have a elephant. The has been much decussion on here as to the calving ablity of a jersey. I personally had one cow have calves over the 100 mark."

Vets, dairy farmers, and cattle ranchers use Lutalyse all the time to synchronize heats, plan A.I. breedings, and yes, abort unwanted pregnancies. There is absolutely no such problem as a "high percentage not breeding back". 
And while some Jerseys can birth large calves, many can't, especially wide bodied beef type calves. Charolais bulls are well known to increase calving difficulties when crossbred to smaller cattle.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

If Lutalyse is so problematic, what are people supposedly using instead in order to sync heat cycles to AI?


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## oneokie (Aug 14, 2009)

ErinP said:


> If Lutalyse is so problematic, what are people supposedly using instead in order to sync heat cycles to AI?


There are feed additives that will accomplish the same heat syncronization when used and fed according to directions.


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

MARYDVM said:


> Vets, dairy farmers, and cattle ranchers use Lutalyse all the time to synchronize heats, plan A.I. breedings, and yes, abort unwanted pregnancies. There is absolutely no such problem as a "high percentage not breeding back".
> And while some Jerseys can birth large calves, many can't, especially wide bodied beef type calves. Charolais bulls are well known to increase calving difficulties when crossbred to smaller cattle.


Synchronize heats and AI ing. Yes it is used for that. But, when using it abort you run the risk of the ability to get them to breed back. In this case sooner the better would be best. that would lessen the chance of future problems.

Here in WI if you are running a bull on pasture you are the one that is liable for any and all damage done by said bull. We had a blackie come through a new 6 barb fence. He was after our old bull. We ended up with 6 cows sliced up from the wire when it broke and a really busted up old bull. The angus was moved to a differnt pasture 2 days later after he got back into our place again. 4 days after that he was bologna when got out from the other place. We are lucky now days, all the pastures aroung ours are cornfields now. Sure is less of a worry about cattle getting in with ours. 
Some of the less drastic steps you can take about this is. Talk to the neighbor. A bull this size must be on teh end of his stay at that farm. If that fails talk with your township Chairman and local Sheriff office. May even go to the extent of filing a report on it too for future problems when they araise. It all depends on what your neighbor is like and also who's fence the bull got through.
Bob


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

springvalley said:


> Erin, so would it also be true if your bull got out and I hit him on the road, you hold no resposability?>Marc


Marc,
Up here that would be a big law suit in a hurry. If you had no insurance you would ---- near lose the farm over it. A good friend had there angus cattle get spoked on night by dogs. They broke through a gate out on to a majior highway. When it was all said and done a mini van hit a cow doing 60. Everyone walked away from it fine. But, he said the insurance company paid out alot of money on that case. 
Bob


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## Texas Papaw (May 30, 2009)

Cindy

I understand your concern and frustration. Don't have the knowledge to properly advise about you cow. Listen to your vet. Do know that Lutylase, properly administered, will abort her.

Regarding the neighbor bull: Follow the state law *to the letter* and be sure to keep a detailed log documenting *everything* you say to your neighbor and his response. Also document every penny you spend because of this incident. Receipts, time required, mileage, etc. Keep copies of everything you give/mail to him and everything he sends you. You may need to mail notice to him by certified mail with a return receipt. This is your proof that you mailed it and proof that he received it. Staple the 2 post office documents/stubs to a copy of the document you mailed and keep it in your file. It is imperative that you do exactly what the law requires in order to protect your rights.

Don't worry about your neighbors reaction. Either he is a good neighbor and will do whatever is right or he will be a not so good neighbor. Nothing you can do can change what he really is inside. However, by following the law, you will let him know that you will not lay down and roll over, but will stand for your legal rights. Just be polite, regardless of his response. Most likely, he will take care of business and do right. Its just like training an animal, child, spouse, etc, if you stand up and let him know what you expect, stand your ground and if necessary a "figurative" (legal)slap on the nose. Sounds like he is trying to be somewhat cooperative. When he is informed of the law and realizes what the possible penalties are, I suspect he will have an attitude adjustment. Very likely, if you handle this firmly, but polite he will become a better neighbor as a result.

FWIW-although it doesn't appear your are required by law, I strongly advise that you put a hot wire along the top of ALL of the common fence with ALL neighbors who have bulls. I suspect there may be many in your area who leave their bulls with the cows year-round. This is merely an ounce of prevention. If you keep that wire HOT, when the bull puts his head over the fence to push it down he will get a jolt that will turn him back. I have never seen a bull that did not respect a properly constructed, really hot fence after his first experience.

The key is the fence has to be really hot. Most all electric fence chargers are GROSSLY overrated by the manufacturers. Get one that is rated for at least 5 times the actual length of your fence. IMO-Regardless of the fence length any charger rated LESS than 25 miles is a waste of money. Had a lease place that came with a 5 mile charger. The owner didn't like e-fence because he only had about 3/4 mile of fence and it wouldn't hold his cows. Fence was well constructed but charger was too wimpy. 25 miler did the job. Make sure you use plenty of ground rods and ground it per the mfg. instructions. Don't skimp on the size of the charger as it is the heart of the system. If the hot wire is properly constructed and maintained, it will be the best piece of mind you can get for a reasonable cost. Another plus for having a single hot wire added to a barbed or net fence is it will keep the cattle from rubbing on the fence and will extend its life greatly.

Hope your cow is ok and best wishes for the future.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

Our Little Farm said:


> I disagree.



I would like you to explain this one.... A 2500 lb mature bull can be an easier calver than a 1000 lb yearling bull. So I don't see how the actual weight of the bull can be an indicator of calving ease.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

I imagine the genetic traits of the bull remain the same over his breeding life regardless of his size.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

ErinP said:


> Any state I've ever lived, fence out or fence IN, btw, so long as the owner has made a _genuine_ effort to contain his livestock, he would not be liable.
> *Ie, there's a difference between a known fence-crawler and a bull following hormones on the breeze*.




Exactly! Now if the OP had said she was having problems with this bull on a daily basis things would be different. Bulls don't generally get to 2500lbs (or whatever he really weighs) if they are chronic fence crawlers. 

The thing that needs to be understood, is that a farmer/rancher has the right to breed his cows for whenever HE wants to have calves the next spring. Just because I want to calve in March, and the neighbor wants to calve in April doesn't give him the right to tell me when I can have my bulls out. In this province, a legal fence is 3 wire, barbed wire and posts. As much as you want to compare cows to people, they are ANIMALS, and I've yet to see a bull rape a cow..... If she won't stand for him, he doesn't breed her, and unless you were there when the actual act happened, you don't really know what was going on, when a cow's in heat, she's in heat, and I can't say I've ever seen any that were particularly fussy when it came to mates. Not saying your cow did, but I have seen cows/heifers crawl fences and travel a couple miles to FIND a bull when they were in heat. 

Regardless of the actual laws, you need to take responsibility for your own animals. If he has a legal fence up (and I would expect a 4 wire barbed is probably meeting or exceeding the law), and he did come get his bull when alerted to the problem, you may need to take steps to prevent a problem from happening again. Bite the bullet and put an electric wire up on the bull's side of the fence, or lock your cow up away from the bull whenever she is in heat.

Among most of us ranchers/farmers, who make a living raising Livestock, there isn't a lot of respect for acreage owners, this thread pretty much covers the reasons why......


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

randiliana said:


> Among most of us ranchers/farmers, who make a living raising Livestock, there isn't a lot of respect for acreage owners, this thread pretty much covers the reasons why......


So the acreage owner is responsible for what happens on both sides of the fence?


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

At the risk of adding to an incredibly long list of really *STUPID* advise....

If you kill your neighbors bull you are inviting a world of problems. Next week it might be your cow on his side of the fence and you will be here crying that he shot your cow.

He sounds like a reasonable guy, deal with him as you would like to be dealt with. You may have a jersey bull some day and I'll guarantee that he doesn't want his beef cows bred to a jersey. It could be your bull on his side some day. 

While I certainly wouldn't want a Jersey bred to a Charloais, the size of the bull does not determine calf size. That "2500" pound bull was once 800 pounds, and had the same genetics that he does now. 

I'm certainly glad some of y'all aint my neighbors.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

How distressing it is that so many people do not respect the rights of a person's property in this county and believe an animal or rancher should not only have a say over their own land, but they should determine another person's life and property as well.

I would never have believed such viewpoints could be held by so many people. It is really very shocking.

The repercussions of these mind sets are scary. Imagine telling people they need to control their own cows and keep out other people's bulls - telling these people they are responsible for having fences strong enough to keep out the bull instead of the owner of the bull keeping HIS bull in. That those who are essentially audacious for waning to prevent further destruction and mayhem by possibly killing the bull or being angry and wanting something done are the ones in the wrong.

Who do ranchers imagine they really are? How is your properly and livestock more important than another's? An Acreage owner has as much right to keep shoot your livestock on his property if you will NOT keep it off as you do the right to shoot dogs, wolves, coyotes, cougars, etc that are killing your livestock on your property. Ranchers have NO MORE rights than any other owner of property - be it a yard or whatever else. They should keep their livestock off another person's property unless the law says they do not have to do so. . .

Do you forget this small farms and acreage owners might have children? You know, I suggested keeping a miniature bull behind huge, solid corral panels, and many responses said if children were around, I should not do this. . .
But there are people here suggesting that dangerous livestock have more rights than human beings do to their property, livelihood and safety. 
Children can be on these properties. They can be killed by a bull coming through a fence. What then? Well, the way some of you talk, that child would get what he/she was asking for by being outside and the parents at fault for not keeping the child behind hotwire - 4 strands, at that.

It is addressed as if this woman asked for it by having dared leave her cow unbred - excuse me, but I think that a citizen has a right to be able to safely leave her cow in that state on her land, behind her fence if she so chooses without second guessing her safety or even her reasons. 

I mean, I just can't fathom some of these responses. Cannot.

In this state - 4 strands of barbed wire is not enough for an uncastrated bull or stallion.
I imagine in many states, if you look to the law, you will find the law is not often going to be on the side of a loose bull in someone else's yard.


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

Someone asked, and yes, the bull is 2500 lbs, at least, maybe more.

The neighbor has a flat part at the bottom, at the road, where he lives, with a barn, pond and hot wire. The uphill part to my place is all woods. I can not see down there, much, some open spots, but it is too far to see well. He has a place to keep the bull locked in. The bull has always been down at the bottom. 

The owner told me himself when he was here getting his bull, that the bull can walk through any fence, hot or not, a barn wall, etc. He told me that my barn was not good enough to keep his bull out if he wanted her. My barn is up by my house, 60-70 yards uphill from the fence. There are no other neighbors. All the land behind me is hunting land.

So, he knew his bull could walk through the fence if he wanted. Any fence. He knew I had a milk cow and a steer. He rides his 4 wheeler up the road sometimes and then goes back down. And there are cows across the road down there, right on the other side. And another bull. Earlier this year I saw his bull down there walking the fence along the road and screaming at the cows and bull across the street. He was firing warning shots at his bull to get away from the fence. He said his bull wanted to get to that other bull. I thought his bull stayed down at the bottom, and was only out when he was watching.

And I already said I do not want a feud or problems with the neighbor. I would not shoot the bull with the 22. I know better. But I could fire it into the ground to warn him away if he gets out and is back up here.


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

_If he has a legal fence up (and I would expect a 4 wire barbed is probably meeting or exceeding the law), and he did come get his bull when alerted to the problem, you may need to take steps to prevent a problem from happening again. Bite the bullet and put an electric wire up on the bull's side of the fence, or lock your cow up away from the bull whenever she is in heat._

4 strands of barbed wire for a 2500 lb bull? Lock my cow up? Where do I go with her? He already told me my barn is not good enough if his bull wants my cow. There is no where to go. I can not put up a hot wire, it is all woods on his side and branches would be touching it all the time. Besides, he told me the bull will walk right through hot wire. And he has not come up to fix his side of the fence yet, my side is fixed, but his barbed wire is gone, stretched and broke.

I have seen this beast up close, and a bull of this size should be behind big walls if an owner chooses to keep one this big. We don't live out in the boonies, there are farms everywhere out here, and houses. For heavens sake, a young bull would get his few cows bred. He does not show them or anything.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Cindy, you have been given some very good advice here - and some absolute garbage - but I think you have the brains to work out which is which. Mistletoads links are pretty much the same as what goes in this country and I rather thought that although there would be subtle differances, the laws would be basically the same and they are.

While I fully understand that you don't want to get off-side with neighbours, this particular one is knowingly and deliberately keeping a bull that he knows he cannot contain and is putting the onus of responsibility on to you and it follows that his attitude encompasses every farmer in the neighbourhood. That is not on under any circumstances and even less so when your fencing is up to par for the type of stock you run.

For those of you whom disagree with that and think this chap should be able to run his bull willy-nilly, think again. People fence to the stock they are keeping. If I want to run bulls I don't fence with chicken wire. If I want to run deer I don't fence with sheep fences, if I want to run sheep I don't fence with cattle fencing. If I want to keep mice I put them in a mouse cage not a dog run. Get real.

Cindy, I agree with those that advise getting your cow aborted. No way in the world would I breed a Jersey to a Charolias, they are pigs of things within their own breed, they just become bigger pigs when cross bred. Please, don't take the risk. It has nothing to do with the size of the bull, if he only weighed 1,000lbs I would say the same thing. It's the genetics of the breed that will dictate calf size, not the size of the bull.

And please also don't even consider shooting him. As somebody earlier said, you could well find yourself in a court of law. If he appears on your property again ring Animal Control and have him impounded. It will cost your neighbour to get him back plus trucking fees etc. and he may then take a bit more notice of his fencing and where and what his bull is up to.

I am so pleased that I have good neighbours.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Why on earth would the neighbor keep such a bull anyway? Can someone answer that question for me. If you know your fences can`t stop him, and you need to use a gun shooting in the air to turn him. Why??? I don`t care how good a bull he is, if I couldn`t keep him in I wouldn`t have him. And if he gotout and hurt my neighbor or her cow he would be down the road fast, hello Oscar Mayer. You get good money for heavy bulls, and if he has kept him around long enough to get that big, he has got his moneys worth out of him. I may have miss spoke when I said shoot him, but if he can`t be stopped, call the sherrif and let him shoot him. I know you will end up in court, but sometime you have to do something like that to straighten things out. You have asked him to keep him locked up and he either can`t or won`t, so you have rights as a American citizen to be safe from a huge animal. Hope this works out for you, you need to feel safe on your own place.>Thanks Marc


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

If the man can't control/restrain his animal, then he shouldn't own it...He's aware that his fencing isn't sufficient to keep his animal on his land...He's liable for any damages as a result


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## anvoj (Feb 1, 2010)

around here, if a bull becomes a problem the owner usually has the stones to put it down himself. 
I think this argument is interesting. The ranchers out west think it's the OP's respnsibility, the farmers further east think it's the neighbor's. I think there's an understanding among neighbors wherever you happen to be, and the OP is clearly not in an open range situation, so the responsibility here is the neighbor's. In OK or KS or somewhere, it would fall on the owner of the cow.
You don't want to start a feud, but you have to stand up for your security. Be calm about it and call the sheriff. If the bull comes back have him come out and put it down.

And BTW, someone mentioned cougars and wolves-around here, you have the right to put down a dog or a bull if it's on your property, but if you shoot a wolf that killed a calf, you're on the hook for big fines, maybe jail time. It's messed up.

good luck with the neighbor


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

postroad said:


> So the acreage owner is responsible for what happens on both sides of the fence?


No, I didn't say that. It certainly isn't their fault that the bull came through the fence. But you must realize, that the guy that owns the bull, didn't come out and put him through the fence either, and most likely isn't real happy that he went through the fence. Cow's are cows and bull's are bulls. And if it were me in this situation, that bull would be going back out with my cows, I can't afford to have dry cows just because my neighbor is in a panic. I'd definitely be sorry that he got out, I've actually been in a similar situation, but I also understand that having a cow in heat on the other side of a fence from a bull is like putting a chocolate cake in front of a bunch of kids and expecting them not to touch it.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

postroad said:


> So the acreage owner is responsible for what happens on both sides of the fence?


On the contrary! But when people get into livestock areas, they need to understand the nature of livestock. And as much as we might wish that they'd see those fences and say, "Huh... I guess I'm not supposed to go over there." that just doesn't happen. 
Ranchers (or livestock farmers) need to make an effort to keep their livestock contained (tight fences, no fence crawlers, etc.) but beyond that, you just hope for the best. :shrug:

However, since we've now found out (three pages into the conversation!) that this bull is a known fence crawler she has a legal standing against the neighbor. 
When he was just a run-of-the-mill bull who followed hormones, she didn't. 



It has nothing to do with who is more important than whom. It's just understanding the nature of livestock. And large groups of livestock are a _completely_ different set of challenges than a couple of heifers. 



> Among most of us ranchers/farmers, who make a living raising Livestock, there isn't a lot of respect for acreage owners, this thread pretty much covers the reasons why......


Unfortunately, the same is true out here in the Plains states, too. 

The _why_, for those who have missed it, is because small acreage owners generally don't understand the _nature_ of livestock. They understand the nature of a few head but not an actual herd. And most livestock are herd animals. Ie, the dynamics of the group, as well as the nature of the animals, are completely different when you have _herds_ rather than a few. 

Statutes and rules and such are all fine and dandy (and why the difference between a known fence crawler or bad fences is stipulated, afterall!) but if you know anything about cattle, you know that if you don't want your heifers bred, you keep them well away from anywhere the neighbors might have bulls. 
Bulls don't read statutes.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

Now, all the info comes out. Before it was a bull that got out because the neighbor's cow was in heat, ONCE. Now we find out the details, that the owner obviously has been down the road with this bull before, that the bull by the sounds of it, has lost his respect of any fence. Now in this case, as the owner, that bull would be gone. In fact most likely that bull would have been gone when I first realized he would not respect an electric.

As far as me expecting that it is not the owners responsibility to fence that bull in, but the neighbor's to fence him out, I am not saying that at all. It should be a mutual responsibility. If the owner has a good solid fence, there is nothing wrong with the neighbor adding a hot wire to it for added security.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

So basicaly the large land owner is responsible to fence "in" to the minimum required by law and the acreage owner must fence "out" to cover the insuficiencies?


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

ErinP said:


> On the contrary! But when people get into livestock areas, they need to understand the nature of livestock. And as much as we might wish that they'd see those fences and say, "Huh... I guess I'm not supposed to go over there." that just doesn't happen.
> Ranchers (or livestock farmers) need to make an effort to keep their livestock contained (tight fences, no fence crawlers, etc.) but beyond that, you just hope for the best. :shrug:
> 
> However, since we've now found out (three pages into the conversation!) that this bull is a known fence crawler she has a legal standing against the neighbor.
> ...



Thank you for articulating what I was trying to say......


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

postroad said:


> So basicaly the large land owner is responsible to fence "in" to the minimum required by law and the acreage owner must fence "out" to cover the insuficiencies?


It works both ways, any landowner is required to fence to the minimum standard, after that they have a couple options, either sue or have a fight every time there is a problem, get used to the idea that there will be some problems or add to the fencing situation. I don't want your Jersey bull (for example) breeding my beef cows any more than you want that big Char bull breeding your Jersey or Dexter cows. 

As a rancher, I don't want my animals out, and I will do what I can to ensure that they stay where they are put, within reason, but I'm not going to build an expensive buffalo fence on the chance that I might have the odd cow/bull crawl my fence. However, if I have an animal that won't stay in, then they don't last long around here, they get hauled to the sale barn, or eaten. I have enough work to keep me busy, without having to constantly be running around putting animals back in their fences. 

But as ErinP says, I know enough that I don't go putting a bunch of open cow/heifers next to a pasture with bulls in it without expecting to have some problems.REGARDLESS of the actual laws, I'd certainly be putting an electric fence up in that case, or be finding another place to put my cows. The owner of the bulls has as much right to have his bulls on any given piece of his land as I do to have my cows on any piece of my land. But by putting those cows there, I am as much at fault if he has a bull crawl the fence as he is.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

So having lush green grass on my side of the fence would also absolve my neighbors cattle for following their instincts and busting through to my property?


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

postroad said:


> So having lush green grass on my side of the fence would also absolve my neighbors cattle for following their instincts and busting through to my property?


Well, it would absolve the cattle, but not the neighbor. I mean, you can't really expect a starving animal not to try and save themselves. There are good neighbors and bad ones. 

If you have a neighbor who always has cattle out, (and it doesn't matter whether you're an acreage owner or a rancher) then you take the necessary steps. But if it is a neighbor who keeps his fences up and usually doesn't have cattle out, then you need to try and work with them. Build your fence better when he has a bull out, move your cows away from a communal fence, whatever you can (within reason) to help keep a problem from happening.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

postroad said:


> So basicaly the large land owner is responsible to fence "in" to the minimum required by law and the acreage owner must fence "out" to cover the insuficiencies?


No, if the large land owner has cattle he wants to keep from his neighbors' bulls, _he'll do the exact same thing_. 

The difference is, HE expects it to be that way. The acreage owner doesn't. 


Around here, it's common to call the neighbors when you're about the take bulls out, if you're going to be up against a fence where they have heifers. (Cows, will get a warning sometimes too, but almost always heifers will).
Not that you're going to do anything different, necessarily, when you put them out. Just a courtesy to let your neighbor know that he might want to move his heifers. Or not. 
His call.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm in the interesting position of being both a small acreage owner and well as a large-acreage _operator_. We run cows for an investor on his land. But live on our little forty acres. 

Our pasture is surrounded on three sides by the neighbor's 1.5 section pasture. His fences are notorious for being loose. Ideally, he should fix half of the fence between he and us, but we just keep it up. Why? Does that mean he's more important than us? 

No, it just means it's far more important to us that the fences are tight than it is to him. Annoying, sure. But if I truly care about what happens to my heifers (as well as my grass), that's what I'll do to keep his cattle out.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

If not suggested yet, you might want to consider high-tension woven wire instead of barbwire. Supposed to be stronger. I'd run 2 strands of barb wire on top, AND a stand-off Hot wire on the bull side of the fence...

Check your local laws (some states are fence out rather than fence in) but around here it is your neighbor's responsibility to keep his Bull on his property, and he owe's you for any expenses incurred because of his failing to do this. This includes vet bills and cost for repairing fences.


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

Simple. Go to the your local court house and ask to see if they have on file the fencing regulations for your state. Then call your township chairman and report to him what happend. Then also make a report with the sheriff's office. This way you are covered. Also as in many states since he is not keeping up his half of the fence, then by going through the township you should beable to have them get it fixed and have him billed on his taxes. Many states that have or had a dairy industry has very strict regs about bulls on pasture. This was due to yrs ago many was would about gentics and such before AI.


Also get some slugs for you shotgun. If by chance you ever need to protect yourself, they will be what you need instead of the 22. That is what I ment in my other post. I did not mean to shoot the bull for no other reason only in self defence.


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## oneokie (Aug 14, 2009)

ArmyDoc said:


> Check your local laws (some states are fence out rather than fence in) but around here it is your neighbor's responsibility to keep his Bull on his property, and he owe's you for any expenses incurred because of his failing to do this. This includes vet bills and cost for repairing fences.


Good level headed common sense advice.

OP has or has access to a computer. Research the Livestock Laws for Kentucky. 

Fence laws and Livestock laws are entirely different, they are here in Oklahoma.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Everyone should keep in mind that we are only getting one side of the story.


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

oneokie said:


> Fence laws and Livestock laws are entirely different, they are here in Oklahoma.


Good point - seems I missed an important section earlier:

259.210 Cattle not to run at large
http://law.justia.com/kentucky/codes/259-00/210.html

_


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

I have to say, If a bull ends up on my land - there would only be one side to the story - he is on my land, you know? Period.

Obviously, her heifer didn't go through her fence over the bull on the other man's land - she isn't posting saying, "This guy's bull called my heifer over, she tore my fence down, he had to drive her back with a gun, and just who does this guy think he is?" Etc, etc.

It would be like asking whether we'd heard the theif's side who broke into your house and stole your TV. If the bull wasn't in her yard, she wouldn't be asking the questions here that she has.

There is no excuse for not keeping dangerous animals locked up. A 2,500lb is a dangerous animal. I know accidents happen and animals find ways out - but then when that occurs, we fix the situation, not tell the people we are not going to do anything about it.


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## oneokie (Aug 14, 2009)

mistletoad said:


> Good point - seems I missed an important section earlier:
> 
> 259.210 Cattle not to run at large
> http://law.justia.com/kentucky/codes/259-00/210.html
> ...


This is more applicable in the OP's situation.
http://law.justia.com/kentucky/codes/259-00/160.html


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

deineria said:


> I
> 
> It would be like asking whether we'd heard the theif's side who broke into your house and stole your TV. If the bull wasn't in her yard, she wouldn't be asking the questions here that she has.
> 
> .



I don't know your whole story either. Maybe the "thief" is really your ex , his name is in the lease, he has the keys, pays the rent, and it's his TV. We don't know because we only have your side of the story.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

deineria, I don't know how you believe that the owner of the bull is not doing anything. I got the impression, he's on his own land and hasn't reoffended.


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

Because I have called him every single morning to make sure the bull is in his pen. He has argued and argued with me and hung up on me several times, saying he is going to turn him back out. I said no. He can leave him down at the bottom in the lot and bull pen. His cows can get bred down there. He only has 33 acres, mostly woods and a dozen cows. He is not a large herd type rancher. I have 12 acres up here, all pasture. He keeps saying he's been here since 1959 and all that. I don't care. I am living in fear up here. We have been here 15 years.

He does not have bull proof fences, period. And he has said this is all my fault, that is his side of the story. He has never said once he was sorry, or came to fix his side of the fence. He said he can't talk to someone who doesn't understand cows. Well, we are only 10 miles from town, pretty big town, and our road is very, very busy. It is one of the main roads out of town. He is putting everyone in danger by letting that over size 6 year old Char bull out in the pasture with 4 strands of barbed wire. His front fence is right next to the road. That bull is a very large dangerous animal. What is not to understand? 

And he has had another huge bull, years ago, bust though our fence 4 or 5 times. A Simmental. Massive, massive thing. I came up on him suddenly on the back side of the barn we used to have down there. We did not do anything then. We should have. We had AI'd our Guernsey several times by then, and he kept coming up. I told him this time I am not putting up with it. If I see the bull out in my pasture I will call the state police. And protect my sweet milk cow, steer and ponies. Crap, what am I supposed to do? I did not mention it because this thread was about the shot, what shot, will it hurt her, what do I do, etc.

Do any of you big ranchers let your 2000 lb + bulls run in pasture next to a busy road? How many people each year get killed when they hit them? Can your fences really keep them in? We stop and help when cows are out around here, regular sized cows. Farmers who have bulls this size keep them in hot wire enclosures and bull pens. Period. I have never seen a bull this size out to pasture. A regular sized bull under 3 can get the job done. I am still having panic attacks. I have checked on my 2 cows every few minutes for days.


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

Erin, the barbed wire fence on the neighbor's side was tight, very very tight, still shiny, tall, hooked to cedar trees, and the bull walked through it like it was nothing. He wasn't even bleeding. The barbed wire was stretched to the breaking point, twice a long as it should be.


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

Cindy in KY said:


> Because I have called him every single morning to make sure the bull is in his pen. He has argued and argued with me and hung up on me several times, saying he is going to turn him back out. I said no. He can leave him down at the bottom in the lot and bull pen. His cows can get bred down there. He only has 33 acres, mostly woods and a dozen cows. He is not a large herd type rancher. I have 12 acres up here, all pasture. He keeps saying he's been here since 1959 and all that. I don't care. I am living in fear up here. We have been here 15 years.
> 
> He does not have bull proof fences, period. And he has said this is all my fault, that is his side of the story. He has never said once he was sorry, or came to fix his side of the fence. He said he can't talk to someone who doesn't understand cows. Well, we are only 10 miles from town, pretty big town, and our road is very, very busy. It is one of the main roads out of town. He is putting everyone in danger by letting that over size 6 year old Char bull out in the pasture with 4 strands of barbed wire. His front fence is right next to the road. That bull is a very large dangerous animal. What is not to understand?
> 
> ...


For the last time, Cindy, get the law enforcement involved in this, be it the Sheriff or the SPCA!! There's only so much you can do and only so much you can say to stop this guy's bull from breaking out again. 

I have been reading this thread from the beginning and all the advice and the stories have been kinda muddled until the last couple pages. Initially I thought that 1) the char bull was just a bull that's following his hormones and 2) the neighbor's been keeping his bulls since then. Now that the facts are more clearer, it appears that you have had more problems with this neighbor of yours than initially thought. 

Though I'm not one to be taking sides, and I wasn't going to give any advice until the facts were a bit more clearer (and a lot of the BS had been cleared up...thanks to Randi and Erin  ), but I can see now that it's not acreage owner's fault in this case. This guy is deliberately causing chaos for you, Cindy, than initially thought. Why indeed is he keeping a bull around that he knows does not respect any kind of fence or barn wall? Either he's really stupid and lazy, or a real schitzen disturber. 

Cindy, if you cannot get a hot enough e-fence for your pastures, or cannot possibly contain your heifer behind a 8' tall bomb-proof concrete-walled barn or corral (which is pretty much what it'll take to protect your heifer from that bull), then call the police. That's what they're there for, to enforce the law when the state citizens can't themselves! File a law suit; make a case to get his bull impounded; whatever you can to make him stop for a heck of a lot longer than just for a few years. Letting yourself get in panic attacks all the time will get you nowheres quick.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

Cindy, I agree with what Karin said to you. If this bull has no respect for fences, then something needs to be done about him. The owner should have done it long before now.



> Do any of you big ranchers let your 2000 lb + bulls run in pasture next to a busy road? How many people each year get killed when they hit them? Can your fences really keep them in? We stop and help when cows are out around here, regular sized cows. Farmers who have bulls this size keep them in hot wire enclosures and bull pens. Period. I have never seen a bull this size out to pasture. A regular sized bull under 3 can get the job done. I am still having panic attacks. I have checked on my 2 cows every few minutes for days.
> __________________


It is not at all uncommon for ranchers to run 5+ year old bulls, bulls are a big expense to buy, so we like to keep them for as long as we can. With the profit margins on calves right now we can't afford to be replacing bulls every year or two. 

Right now we have 5 bulls, 2 of them are big mature bulls. A 6 year old Hereford and a 5 year old Black Angus, as well as 2 4 year old Angus bulls and one yearling. The big Hereford is running up in our pasture along our Trans-Canada highway, the main highway throughout Canada. I am not at all concerned about him getting out. The fence is a 4 wire barbed wire fence, with no hot-wire. I'm sure that the occasional bull gets hit along highways, but I can't remember the last time I ever heard about one. Cows, every now and then, and calves, but no bulls.

I have no intention of selling either one of these bulls right now, they both respect people and fences (as much as any bull ever does). Besides to replace one will cost us between $2000 and $3000, and I've got better things to do with that money than to replace a perfectly good bull. In about a week they will all be coming home from breeding, and they will spend the next 10 months hanging out with each other. And then we will start all over again, with the same bulls, unless one of them starts being a problem.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

*ALL* land in Arizona is presumed to be "Open Range."

Arizona Open Range laws are "Fence Out", but you, the property owner, could still be liable for any damages to the cattle ranchers animals. 

Landowners who are concerned with livestock damaging plants and other private property, have an obligation to fence their private land with a lawful fence to keep animals out. Having a lawful fence is necessary in any action to recover damages due to trespassing animals. (ARS 3-1427)

ARS 3-1428 states that if the livestock have broken through the &#8220;legal fence&#8221; you can collect damages.

You shoot any cattle here that ain't your own, you could be prosecuted under FELONY charges and face JAIL/FINES, even if it's on your property. It has happened quite a few times here, recently within the last several years.

Open range signs along Arizona's roads warn drivers of the presence of cattle, cattle owners do not have to fence in their livestock.

Auto accidents involving cattle could hold those involved responsible for reimbursing the rancher for damages to his livestock, depending on if it's a No-Fence District (or not) and several other factors.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> Do any of you big ranchers let your 2000 lb + bulls run in pasture next to a busy road? How many people each year get killed when they hit them? Can your fences really keep them in? We stop and help when cows are out around here, regular sized cows. Farmers who have bulls this size keep them in hot wire enclosures and bull pens. Period. I have never seen a bull this size out to pasture. A regular sized bull under 3 can get the job done.


We have 23 herd bulls, primarily Angus. Only about three or four of them in any given year are under the age of 4... (Why would people trade off perfectly good bulls? That seems like a HUGE waste of money...)

We don't currently have _any_ land near pavement (keeping in mind, our county only has two paved roads through it, one North/South, the other East/West), but we do have them on county roads. 

For whatever reason, _when_ they get out, they get out into other pastures, not onto the road... And in this part of the world, yes, people run their cattle, bulls included, next to the highway. Perimeter fences are usually four-strand, sometimes five.
(I can't decide if that question was meant to be amusing or merely puzzling, actually. What would people _do_ with their pastures that border highways if they didn't USE them??)


Now that we've determined that this bull is a known pest, what WE usually do with the neighbor that refuses to be a good one is pack his critter up in the trailer and haul him to the sale barn.  
S/he'll be brand-inspected there, identified as the neighbor's critter and he'll be notified to come get it. 
He'll be charged the inspector's fee, as well as charged yardage. lol


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

In this part of the country that would be classified as rustling livestock.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Nope. Not if he's found on _your own_ property. 
That's the key. 
Besides, you're not trying to _sell_ him. Only to get him back to his rightful owner. Of course, it's just unfortunate that there's going to be yard fees and inspection fees involved...


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

We live on one of the very few small parcels for several miles. We have 10 acres, with a sweet loving Jersey cow in the mix, and I would be SICK if she had experienced what your poor cow did 
That said, when bulls get out in our neck of the woods, and they do from time to time as that's what bulls seem intent on doing sometimes, it is customary to contact the bull's owner, which you have done.
In the case of a repeat offender, the bull's owner usually gets so dang tired of running to fetch him (not to mention tired of having to deal with the neighbors being t'd off about his roving bull) that he carts him off to the sale barn himself. Don't know off anyone who has shot his own bull when he could simply sell him to the packers.
This bull seems to be particularly dangerous, since he appears to have absolutely no respect for fences.
Why your neighbor wants such an animal is beyond me.
Contact any and all other cattle ranching neighbors nearby to see what they have done when faced with similar situations.
I understand that you don't want to cause a hostile relationship with the neighbors, but unfortunately your neighbor has done just that by handling his livestock this way.
You have my sympathy.


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## 65284 (Sep 17, 2003)

There are some interesting, and in some cases, I think, rather self serving opinions expressed here. There seems to be a, "you only have a few acres and run a few head so you don't understand attitude. An, I'm a big operator, a real rancher and I'll do as I darn well please" mentality that isn&#8217;t conducive to keeping peace with the neighbors.

Yes, a cattleman has a right to run his bulls when and wherever he chooses ON HIS OWN LAND. An adjoining owner has an equal right to run their animals and use their property however they need or want to without fear of harm to themselves, family, animals, or their property, by a trespassing bull. 

I don't buy the nonsense that people should have to either spend money on extra fencing, keep their animals locked up, or put up with a neighbor&#8217;s destructive, roaming bull because "bulls will be bulls". 

The OP apparently has fencing adequate to keep her livestock confined to her property; the bull owner should take whatever steps are necessary to do the same, at his expense. No one should have to bear the labor and cost of building a super fence to ensure a neighbor&#8217;s bull stays at home. 

No doubt cows, calves and steers all get out, but seldom cause much damage or pose any danger to others. Some here seem to forget or ignore the difference between an animal that finds a weak spot in a fence or open gate and "gets out" and a bull that deliberately destroys a fence and wreaks havoc on another's property, cows and especially heifers.

I suspect these same folks would yell bloody murder if an uninvited hunter trespassed or a neighbor&#8217;s kid wrecked one of their fences and rode around on an ATV tearing up pasture, frightening and possibly injuring their stock. 

Ya think a "well he is young and impetuous and just being a boy and couldn't help himself" excuse would fly, especially if the fence wasn't repaired? What are the chances they would accept being told, you must build a better fence to keep them out? Chances are slim to none they would go for that.

And yes, I do understand about randy bulls, I have 2 and 5 year old Jersey bulls here, nuff said. I spent the money to build high, tight, and very hot fences that have 4 barb wire used as the ground wires, and they stay in. 

I check the cattle and fences every day, if/when they get out I will do whatever is necessary to keep them in. I won&#8217;t alibi or try to shift responsibility to my neighbors for keeping my stock on my place.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Love the post, 65284!



> Now that we've determined that this bull is a known pest, what WE usually do with the neighbor that refuses to be a good one is pack his critter up in the trailer and haul him to the sale barn.
> S/he'll be brand-inspected there, identified as the neighbor's critter and he'll be notified to come get it.
> He'll be charged the inspector's fee, as well as charged yardage. lol


Yes, great idea. You're hardly stealing something left on your property.


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## Shoupie (Mar 21, 2009)

Are the lyrics to Oklahoma's "The Farmer and the Cowman Should be Friends." running through anyone else's mind?


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Hey Ken or Chuck, how 'bout lockin' this thread down before we have a range war.......


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

Thank you 65284. You said that very well. 

Well, even if people here disagreed about fences and neighboring bulls, it is still a good thread for people looking for a new homestead. Most of us want a family milk cow and some steers. I guess it is more important about who is adjoining the property than the property itself. If they run super large bulls you don't have a chance, no matter the fences.

Actually, the farm we are both sitting on wasn't split up until the mid 80's. And he only put his house down there 2 or 3 years ago. He lived a few miles away but had cows and a barn here. He has not been here since 1959, blah blah blah.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

65284 said:


> There are some interesting, and in some cases, I think, rather self serving opinions expressed here. There seems to be a, "you only have a few acres and run a few head so you don't understand attitude. An, I'm a big operator, a real rancher and I'll do as I darn well please" mentality that isnât conducive to keeping peace with the neighbors.


Perhaps if one is incapable of comprehending what they've read, they MIGHT be getting this out of what some of us have said. 
Or, for those who ARE capable of comprehension, they're getting what is being said-- that livestock is unpredictable and one can only do their best to mitigate that unpredictability. And the more one has, the more unpredictable they become. 
(Or perhaps this is merely an example of martyr-complex, in which case, who am I to interfere with would-be martyrs? lol)

It has also been said, BY EVERYONE IN THE THREAD (again, this goes back to being able to understand what is being written), that a known fence-crawler needs to have something done. 
He has moved to the predictable and must be dealt with accordingly. 

(Though the OP didn't share that vital piece of information until three pages of opinions had weighed in, so I can maybe see why people are missing the last page worth of posts).





I think what is MORE interesting is how many people, _without knowing_ that this bull is a known menace, were willing to hang the neighbor. 

And how _few_ of us were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

The differences in opinion expressed seem to be drawn along open range/closed range, or fence out/fence in and I think that is to be expected. Back East people expect bulls to be contained and the laws reflect that. In open range people expect bulls to roam once in a while and their laws reflect that. The animals are not different, the expectations and regulations are and I do not think it is fair to say people in fence in states do not understand the nature of the animal - we do but the law is the law and while it may not be my fault if/when my bull escapes, it is my responsibility to make sure he doesn't do it again and to pay restitution to anyone harmed by the escape.

The neighbour of the OP appears to have a fence out mentality in a fence in state and that doesn't work very well for anyone.


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

From what I've gathered from this discussion, the bull in question has a rep of not respecting fences. The cow in question probably pranced along the fence and got more than she bargained for (probably not rape lol) . I see two things wrong, the bull probably should have been put on wheels and marketed long ago, and the cows owner, knowing the bull was a problem, probably should have kept her cow farther from the fence till out of heat. 
As far as the size of the bull, as randilana and others stated, you don't get rid of a expensive bull because he growed up. As long as he isn't a problem, no reason to.
We routinely kept our herford, angus, and gelbvieh bulls till 5 or 6 years old and often they weighed well over 2000 lbs. And, you don't "put down" a $5000 bull. You take him to a cattle auction and at least get hamburger price out of him. The bull is responsible for 50% of your calves, if he is a good one you keep him as long as possible.
There is a vast difference in the mind-set of people in cattle country vs those in semi-urban, or dairy country. I don't think those with a few cows and one bull realize the logistics or problems of the rancher with hundreds of cows and dozens of bulls, in pastures of thousands of acres. They never will understand the difference.

There , I've had my say for my 2 cents worth.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

ErinP said:


> I think what is MORE interesting is how many people, _without knowing_ that this bull is a known menace, were willing to hang the neighbor.
> 
> And how _few_ of us were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.


:bow::bow:


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

I was more blunt then I should have been. Yes the neighbor should keep his bull in but if you run open cows or heifers next to a pasture with a bull in it, you have to live with the consequences.

Just for the record the biggest bull I ever saw a little over 3000 lbs. when he crossed the scales, and that was in his working clothes.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Boy I guesss it may open up a hornets nest, ain`t it interesting how differant parts of the country some things are ok to do and other parts of the country they aren`t. I guess this is another one for the books. But I will say this is happening in the midwest, and thats all that matters right now. >Thanks Marc


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

I know it's hard to read 4 pages, but the bull was supposed to be at the bottom lot, where he always is. And this massive fence crasher is not the same massive fence crasher as the one a few years ago. Thing is, he knew I had a Jersey cow up here, and a steer. He has a bad record for turning his massive bulls out to pasture where they should not be. They can go anywhere they want and there is farms and traffic. And I can not see them out, it is all woods. I can not see them unless they are right up against my fence in the woods.

Yeah, it is interesting. Very interesting.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

She made is clear from the start that the guy didn't fix her fence and said he wasn't going to keep the bull locked up, so as far as I can see hanging the neighbor seems far. The fact the bull is a known fence plower add to the reasons, yes, but the fact he drove the bull back with a gun, she had to fix her own fence, he didn't offer to right off to pay for the expenses the OP will incure if the cow ends up needing aborted or agree to keep the bull up is enough - which was all pretty plain on the first page.

Also, it was plain we are talking about Kentucky . . . not out in ranch country. . .and that changes things a great deal. Louisville is a fair sized city - and the OP is only 50 miles from there. . .so this hardly sounds like the sticks or the middle of nowhere, where someone can let cattle free range.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Cindy in KY, I don't understand what you mean by him putting bulls in pastures they shouldn't be in. Are they on someone else's land or are there certain regulations that would prevent him from pasturing specific animals or a certain number of animals or some other reason? Are his bulls often found in traffic and on other farms? If so, I would think the problem would have been resolved before now by simply calling the police or animal control if they are on public roads and if his bulls are consistently roaming, I would think the law would expect him to make some changes. 

If you're simply uncomfortable sharing a fenceline with this man, perhaps you could make an offer to purchase that particular piece of land.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

deineria said:


> She made is clear from the start that the guy didn't fix her fence


We don't know if that was just because she beat him to it, though.



> and said he wasn't going to keep the bull locked up,


No, she told us that he wouldn't keep him in the pen that _she wanted him kept in_. Not that he wouldn't do his best to keep him home. 
She ALSO told us that this neighbor offered to keep her heifer for her, in his bull-proof pen, so that she would for sure be OK. (Which to me, makes a whole lot more sense than keeping a bull penned up during breeding season! To me, it sounds like he was _trying_ to be neighborly...)

And that's what we had to go on. 



> so this hardly sounds like the sticks or the middle of nowhere, where someone can let cattle free range.



This has nothing to do with "free range" (why does that keep entering this conversation, anyway?) This is plain and simply understanding the nature of livestock when it's time to breed! I don't care if they live near Louisville, Jersey City, or Mobridge, SD. Bulls are bulls and they'll go check out heifers in heat! lol

And there IS a difference between folks who actually make their living from their livestock and folks who just own a few head for their own use. Again, geography is irrelevant.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

ErinP said:


> *And there IS a difference between folks who actually make their living from their livestock and folks who just own a few head for their own use.*


ErinP,

Can you help me on this part of you statement? I'm new to all this stuff and it would help me to know how to treat those who make a living from their livestock.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

ErinP, I have farmed all my life, and ran stock cows on pasture all summer, with bulls with them. I would never expect some one keep their cow locked up when in heat. I never had a bull go roaming to look see what was in the neighborhood. If I had a bull that was as rank as this bull appears to be, he would be bound for Oscar Mayer. I have a Jersey bull running with my jersey cows and is held in with one strand of the rope wire fence and this keeps him in. I think on the most part this is a hard headed cow man not gona have no neighbor lady tell him what to do.>Thanks Marc


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

_what you mean by him putting bulls in pastures they shouldn't be in._

His fences are not good enough to contain the bull. His big bull can walk right over or through them. His bull was supposed to be down at the bottom. He has a solid pen behind his barn for the bull and about 1 acre and a pond down there the bull is usually in. He turned him out to wander up the hill.

Anyway, we just got back from down there. He has taken the BEAST and all his 12 cows and hid them somewhere and he said over and over he doesn't know where the Bull is. He ran off, could be anywhere. Whatever.

And whoever asked, I fixed my side of the fence, but he has yet to come back up and put up his barbed wire on his side. He could have drove the bull down the hill, put the Bull in his pen and been back up there in 30 minutes. Never showed all day, or the next, or the next. It happened in the morning. And it was raining when I had to put the fence back up. The bull busted cedar posts clean over to the ground.


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## triple divide (Jan 7, 2010)

*Die bad bull thread! Die! Die! Die!*


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

hey Cindy in KY, maybe you could help fix the fence on his side?! How much is tore up?


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

> I know it's hard to read 4 pages, but the bull was supposed to be at the bottom lot, where he always is. And this massive fence crasher is not the same massive fence crasher as the one a few years ago. Thing is, he knew I had a Jersey cow up here, and a steer. He has a bad record for turning his massive bulls out to pasture where they should not be. They can go anywhere they want and there is farms and traffic. And I can not see them out, it is all woods. I can not see them unless they are right up against my fence in the woods.


I believe it's breeding season for him and that's why he still wants his bull with the cows instead of in the bull pen. A cattleman can't expect to get his cows bred by keeping his "monster bull" in the bull pen 365 days of the year. And using 1 piddly little acre corral to house 12 cows and one bull for a breeding season of, say, 3 months is just not common sense at this time of year.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

I am wondering how many of you free range beef cattlemen would like it if the neighbor's Jersey bull kept getting in and breeding your cows. The Jersey bull would only be doing what was natural. I guess it would be your responsibility to fence him out. This thread started out with a question about a shot to abort a too-large calf and escalated into something else. I don't know all the facts either, but it sure would make me furious for a neighbor to keep a fence crashing Charolais bull right next to my little Dexter or Jersey, unless the bull was kept in a bull-proof fence. When a bull starts roaming it is time for him to go. He is not only dangerous to small cows but to humans as well. We had a nice Red Angus bull that got to visiting the neighbor cows and we got rid of him.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

Linn, if you read through the posts, you would find that question was already answered. 

I wouldn't be happy about it, but as long as it wasn't a constant occurrence I wouldn't have a complete cow over it. If I knew which cows he bred, I'd likely lute them. Talk to the neighbor and possibly add a hotwire to the fence.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

And if you had read all the post, you would remember that she stated that this bull did not respect any type of fences. This is going to be a reoccuring event unless he contains the bull. A bull knows the minute a hot wire is down and goes right through it. I am aware that the question about the shot was answered. You can say it is just natural all you want, but if the shoe was on the other foot, I bet it would start to pinch.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

I meant the question about the Jersey bull. Don't worry, I've dealt with neighbor's bulls before. And I've also dealt with my own bulls which have gotten out. We had a neighbor's big blk Simmie bull get in with our cows 3-4 times one summer. Fortunately we only got 3 calves out of him. We called the neighbor a couple times, and a couple times we put the bull back. Thing is, fence in or fence out, it could just as easily been our bull/s that were causing the problems. This time it was the neighbor, next time it could be ours......


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Yes, I did miss your comment about the Jersey bull. I was trying to read through what everyone posted and missed that. When I went back and read more slowly I found it. This, like many other discussions is one where diffferent folks have different view.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

I am suprised, from some replies, that it hasn't been suggest many time the OP should fix the bull owner's fence, too - geesh!

I think Springvalley/Marc has an awful lot of sense, as well - lol.

Makes no difference if you make a living at it or supplement you living with it - you should make every effort to no damage what belongs to other people or hassle them or their livestock. It is just common sense. 

Where you live makes all the difference - if it isn't a free range area. . . in the middle of no where. . . the laws are usually much more black and white about fence for uncastrated male animals. They are here in WV. I'm sure they are in Ky.
4 strands of barbed wire are not legal for stallions in some areas. . .certainly not for bulls. . .


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

There are 3 kinds of people who live in the "country"

1. Country people who have grown up and lived there all their lives. They know the culture, and live by it.

2. City people, who move to the country and truly want to embrace the lifestyle and become good citizens.

3. City people who move to the country, and rather than adapting they bring the city with them.


I can tell which category every poster in this thread falls under.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Tinknal, so ok which category do I fall under. And no, I'm not being sarky, going on my posts, which would you label me.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

deineria said:


> I think Springvalley/Marc has an awful lot of sense, as well - lol.
> 
> Makes no difference if you make a living at it or supplement you living with it - you should make every effort to no damage what belongs to other people or hassle them or their livestock. It is just common sense.


Deineria, your right, Marc has made some very sensible posts and so does you comment above.

It doesn't matter whether a person farms 1 acre or 1,000 acres, they have both a moral and legal obligation and responsibility to ensure that whatever they choose to do does not impinge on their neighbours and if it does, they go some way to making it right.

I run an Angus bull and go to great lengths to ensure that he does not get out and hassle my neighbours Hereford herd or another neighbours yearling heifers. Neither of them would thank me and at the end of the day, it is my choice to run the bull, it is my responsibility to make sure he stays where he's put. And because I know bull behaviour, my fencing is such that he shouldn't get out - 7 wire post and batten with electric outriggers. He did get out once, last summer when the river dried up and he was able to walk under a bridge and up on to the road. He just munched the grass on the side, my neighbour put him in his yards and then helped me bring him home. A portable electric fence across the river bed stopped him repeating the excercise.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

I have got to write a little story on here that happened to a young guy up my way. He is a neighbor just livesa half mile up the road. He was driving home at night about five six years ago, late summer, clear night, on his motor cycle. He was running down the blacktop road not more than a mile from home, and their in the road he see`s eyes, sure enough a black stocker cow in the road. The guy hit the cow, was thrown from his bike and slid a hundred yards, lying on the centerline of the blacktop. A on coming car stopped and found him, thinking he was dead, found the bike, and the cow(who was still alive but bad shape). The guy was taken to the hospital not expected to live, was in the hospital for months. He was told he would never walk again, and would have to have more surgeries. Well now several years later and more operations and much hardship, he is walking, but does use a wheel chair from time to time. He had a very hard time of it, and almost died again a year ago after another operation. Well no one claimed the cow, but they found out who it did belong to, was another mans cow that had escaped its fence a week before and had been on the loose for that time. Ended up sueing the man (Who had insurance) and got a large settlement. VERY Large, ended up built a new handicaped home and and a small farm so he can make a somewhat of a life for himself. Has the ground custom farmed because he can`t. He has been through hell a deserves everything he got, because he has had a very hard few years, none of us could have made it very well. Sorry this is so long, but this is what could happen when cattle run free. >Thanks Marc


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Cindy in KY said:


> Because I have called him every single morning to make sure the bull is in his pen. He has argued and argued with me and hung up on me several times, saying he is going to turn him back out. I said no. He can leave him down at the bottom in the lot and bull pen. His cows can get bred down there. He only has 33 acres, mostly woods and a dozen cows. He is not a large herd type rancher. I have 12 acres up here, all pasture.



Calling and yelling isn't going to do your cause any good. As long as he can keep his bull in his pasture it is none of your business where or what that bull is doing.

It sounds like you are dealing with a piece of work. I hope he can keep the bull in, if he can't load it up next time he enters your propery and make hamburger out of him.

You do realize that the yelling and demanding only adds to the alternative view of homesteaders which is "Know it all, Hippy Freaks, that should stay in the city and leave us real farmers the heck alone" right?


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

Lazy J said:


> Calling and yelling isn't going to do your cause any good. As long as he can keep his bull in his pasture it is none of your business where or what that bull is doing.
> 
> It sounds like you are dealing with a piece of work. I hope he can keep the bull in, if he can't load it up next time he enters your propery and make hamburger out of him.
> 
> You do realize that the yelling and demanding only adds to the alternative view of homesteaders which is "Know it all, Hippy Freaks, that should stay in the city and leave us real farmers the heck alone" right?


The big problem here is that no matter what Cindy wants and thinks, is that a person can run their own cattle on their own land. You can't tell him, that he can't put his bull out in his own pasture. Certainly, this bull should have been gotten rid of a long time ago, but still, it is his bull, and his land. You can certainly phone him up and ASK him if there is somewhere he can put the bull and cows for the breeding season, that isn't along your land. But it is unrealistic to expect him to corral the bull, and keep the cows with him for breeding season.

Basically, your options in this situation, if he won't work with you, are to either get the law involved, or to make sure your cow is moved away from the area when that bull is there.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

tinknal said:


> There are 3 kinds of people who live in the "country"
> 
> 1. Country people who have grown up and lived there all their lives. They know the culture, and live by it.
> 
> ...


One can easily tell a lot about a person by what they write and the way in which it is written.


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## tallpines (Apr 9, 2003)

Marc----that sounds like "my story"------------I was the one that found the injured motorcyclist and cow on the road.

Except in this case, BOTH the man and the cow died.

It happened more than 30 years ago yet I remember every detail like it just happened yesterday.

The whole thing went to criminal court and the open gate that allowed the cows to get out, was determined to be an "Act of God"-------apparently the wind from a storm had blown it open....no liability on the cow owner's part.

Then it went to civil court and there was a monotary settlement there but not extremely large.

If the man had survived with lasting injuries, I'm certain the settlement would have been much higher.


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## 65284 (Sep 17, 2003)

tinknal said:


> There are 3 kinds of people who live in the "country"
> 
> 1. Country people who have grown up and lived there all their lives. They know the culture, and live by it.
> 
> ...


Okay tink, based on my post in this thread am I a 1. 2. or 3.? Now don't cheat and go back and read any of my prior posts.


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## 65284 (Sep 17, 2003)

randiliana said:


> The big problem here is that no matter what Cindy wants and thinks, . You can certainly phone him up and ASK him if there is somewhere he can put the bull and cows for the breeding season, that isn't along your land. But it is unrealistic to expect him to corral the bull, and keep the cows with him for breeding season.
> 
> Basically, your options in this situation, if he won't work with you, are to either get the law involved, or to make sure your cow is moved away from the area when that bull is there.


No, I suspect Cindy agrees that a person can run their cattle ON THEIR OWN LAND! I doubt she would argue that he can't put his bull out IN HIS OWN PASTURE! It seems that is all she wants and thinks should happen. 

The real big problem is the person in question is doing neither. He is allowing his bull to invade her pasture and breed her small Jersey cow. Is it unrealistic to expect him to control/contain his bull and keep him off her place? Maybe unrealistic but not unreasonable what is unrealistic is to expect her to move or lock up her cow. 

Isn't your solution of moving her cow somewhere else is in direct contradiction to your opinions stated in your post. You said "that a person can run their own cattle on their own land" it is his bull, and his land", "You can't tell him, that he can't put his bull out in his own pasture".

The same applies to her: she can run her own cow on her own land, it is her cow and her land, and she can't be told she can't put her cow anywhere she chooses in her own pasture.

If the guy would just keep his own bull in his own pasture on his own land, problem solved.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

I can't remember anyone mentioning the danger of transmitting disease when a bull roams. I know many people vaccinate for Bangs etc, but there are some STDs not usually vaccinated for and other diseases that can be spread from cow to cow.


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## Karin L (Oct 5, 2006)

65284 said:


> No, I suspect Cindy agrees that a person can run their cattle ON THEIR OWN LAND! I doubt she would argue that he can't put his bull out IN HIS OWN PASTURE! It seems that is all she wants and thinks should happen.
> 
> The real big problem is the person in question is doing neither. He is allowing his bull to invade her pasture and breed her small Jersey cow. Is it unrealistic to expect him to control/contain his bull and keep him off her place? Maybe unrealistic but not unreasonable what is unrealistic is to expect her to move or lock up her cow.
> 
> ...


Either it's me, or your post just went in one ear and out the other.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. First you imply that you agree with Cindy that "a person can run their cattle on their own land," then next thing I know you're saying "he can't put his bull out in his own pasture." Then you revert back, ending with "keep his own bull in his own pasture on his own land." ????? What point are you trying to get across here? Randi was just stating that Cindy doesn't have a right to tell the neighbor how and where to run his bulls, which I agree with. She can't tell him to keep his bull in the bull pen 365 days a year: It's his bull. It's his own land, for cryin' out loud, he can run his own bull on his own pasture when he wants. _The problem is is that the bull DOES NOT RESPECT FENCES_.

The neighbor has a responsibility to have the knowledge that a bull that does not respect a fence is a bull that should be turned to hamburger. Thus, if the bull does not respect the pasture fences (i.e. can't keep "his own bull in his own pasture on his own land") no matter if it's a single hot-wire, a 3- or 7-wire barbed wire fence, or a bomb-proof concrete wall, *he's got to go*. 

Sure he's following his hormones and was out because Cindy's heifer was in heat. Did the neighbor know that the heifer was in heat? I highly doubt it. The bull was acting like any bull attracted to the pheromones of a heifer in estrus. But the problem wasn't that: it's the fact that the bull DOES NOT RESPECT FENCES. Cindy didn't know the bull was a notorious fence bulldozer until he nearly gave her a heart-attack when she seen him in with her Jersey. Thus, the other part of the problem is LACK OF COMMUNICATION of BOTH parties. Not the fact that the neighbor is deliberately letting the bull do what he wants, which I initially thought.

It's certainly realistic for the neighbor to indeed have control/containment if his own bull, but unrealistic when you expect that bull to be in his lil' pen 24/7/365 when he is needed to be breeding cows or he should be out grazing when his little corral is down. Like I said before, it's not common sense to have 13 cattle in one acre plot for a breeding season of 2 or 3 months at this time of year!!! 

It's also realistic for the neighbor and Cindy to communicate to each other that Cindy has an open heifer. I know, so does Randi and everyone else on here that it is unrealistic to lock up a heifer every time she's in heat. But it's that darn communication barrier that causes the REAL problem. 

We all know she also has a right to run her cattle wherever she pleases, same with the neighbor. But every hobby farmer or cattleman also has a right and responsibility to know about their neighbor's cattle operation too, and to manage their cattle accordingly to avoid schinanigans such as this. If that could've been achieved, then all these schinanigans would've been avoided.


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

Well, I didn't yell. He knew I was scared. I spoke nicely. I told him his fences up here were not strong enough to hold that bull if he wanted over here. Heck, he never even came up to put up his broken barbed wire where the bull went through, and he's saying he is going to turn him back out? He has to keep that bull off the fence by the street with warning shots from a gun. I've seen it.

Would you let him turn him back out without the fence being repaired? You gonna stay up 24/7 to watch? Once again, THAT bull can walk right over or through any fence line he has up here at the top. period.

And it would be easy to get them bred. Turn the 12 cows into the acre lot for the night. He breeds them when they come in. In the mornings he can turn the cows back out that are not in. They do have markers for bulls now. Not hard to do if you can not fence the whole place for your bull. He does not have bull proof fences on the rest of the place.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

With just twelve or thirteen cows, it wouldn't be hard to turn each one in the lot when she comes into heat. We have done it here in the home pasture when we had one of our bulls in the lot. You can tell when they are standing, turn them in with the bull. With a large herd this would not be feasible, but with a few cows, yes you can do it. It is clear that you are not going to be able to convince some members to espouse your view. You shouldn't have to keep defending yourself. If you stated the facts, then you are clearly not at fault. You might as well give it up here as a lost cause and ignore any more pointed comments. Sometimes with this type of discussions tempers flare and people say things in the heat of the moment that they wouldn't ordinarily say. This is quite different than baiting, the best way to deal with that is to ignore it and the poster.


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## dezingg (Feb 25, 2010)

The two examples shared here of Kentucky law don't seem to tolerate cattle going through the fence. Looks like the neighbor is liable for damages and perhaps court costs. I'd talk to someone who knows the law for a fact.

The neighbor doesn't have to guarantee that the bull won't come through the fence, but he is responsible for whatever happens.

But if it does come into your land, do not put yourself in a position where the bull might harm you! Even if it is hurting your cattle, be very very careful that it won't get a chance to hurt you.

Call the neighbor and call the sheriff.

It is too big and strong to mess with. I've heard crazy bull stories from guys on large ranches. 

Maybe you should get larger cattle and get free periodic breedings from your neighbor? Probably not an option for you. At least you would turn a risk of loss and damage into an advantage. 

Be Safe! And Good luck!


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

No thank you on the larger cattle! The biggest we have had is a Guernsey milk cow. I had written on page 4 that the Bull is gone to another property somewhere and he promised to keep me informed if he brought them back over here. 

I finally, finally, feel better and got some new pics today of the buggers. She is doing just fine. They were piggin the new load of bread we got today. If the cow pics don't load, hit refresh. Pics of Cows


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

linn said:


> One can easily tell a lot about a person by what they write and the way in which it is written.


Do tell.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Ronney said:


> Tinknal, so ok which category do I fall under. And no, I'm not being sarky, going on my posts, which would you label me.
> 
> Cheers,
> Ronnie


Ronney, you are either a 1., or a 2. who has lived the life long enough to become a 1.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

triple divide said:


> *Die bad bull thread! Die! Die! Die!*


There is an option to not read the thread.



The disdain demonstrated here that large operators have for small acreage types reminds me of the rancher I was reading who thought there should be no objection to his flushing cattle out of the brush with a shotgun. Apparently we shouldn't mind chomping down on birdshot in our beef.

Funny that the CUSTOMERS of beef producers should not have a say in what they are buying. And then producers wonder why the market slows.

"Because, by god, we have always done it this way, and that's how we do it!"


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

65284 said:


> Okay tink, based on my post in this thread am I a 1. 2. or 3.? Now don't cheat and go back and read any of my prior posts.


Why is that cheating? after all, I said that I can tell by the posts. How can I determine a type based on posts without looking at posts? That makes no sense. After looking at yours I'm tempted to create a new category.....


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## triple divide (Jan 7, 2010)

DJ in WA said:


> There is an option to not read the thread.
> 
> The disdain demonstrated here that large operators have for small acreage types reminds me of the rancher I was reading who thought there should be no objection to his flushing cattle out of the brush with a shotgun. Apparently we shouldn't mind chomping down on birdshot in our beef.
> 
> ...


There is also an option not to be so prickly. 

I was trying to be funny and lighten a thread that has obviously become somewhat strained. Your post here is an excellent example of what I'm talking about.

So do me a favor. Stop taking yourself so frickin' seriously.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

tinknal said:


> Ronney, you are either a 1., or a 2. who has lived the life long enough to become a 1.


Your right Not born into it but spent but spent nearly 2/3rds of adult life in farming.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

tinknal said:


> There are 3 kinds of people who live in the "country"
> 
> 1. Country people who have grown up and lived there all their lives. They know the culture, and live by it.
> 
> ...


lol

Me too.

Guys, the facts haven't changed; EVERYONE in this thread has said that if the bull in question is a known menace (which, after three pages, we discovered he was), harsher measures need to be taken.

However, when he was NOT a known menace (ie, the first three pages) the lesson was that some of you need to learn that neighbor is also a verb. 
And some times, in order to _be_ a good neighbor, you need to put up with accidents when they happen and do _your_ best to keep them from happening. (ie, don't keep your heifer next to the neighbor's pasture when she's in heat!) You want to call it being a doormat, fine. But in my mind, it's simply giving people the benefit of the doubt and assuming they AREN'T all out to screw us over.  (which is the assumption a great many people made!)


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

triple divide said:


> There is also an option not to be so prickly.
> 
> I was trying to be funny and lighten a thread that has obviously become somewhat strained. Your post here is an excellent example of what I'm talking about.
> 
> So do me a favor. Stop taking yourself so frickin' seriously.


:bow::bow::bow:


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

ErinP said:


> And there IS a difference between folks who actually make their living from their livestock and folks who just own a few head for their own use. Again, geography is irrelevant.


This guy has 12 cows, hes not a huge cattle rancher


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

You have to go well into the thread to find my comment. 
It really had nothing to do with the bull owner... :shrug:


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

I'll jump in here and share my opinion. For what it's worth!!!!!!!

Why not, since neither one of you or the neighbor is in this for total income, get with the neighbor as peaceably as possilbe and suggest a joint effort to repair the fence? 

He may or may not agree to it. However, some states; (Oklahoma to be one of them) mandate that you are not only responsible for fencing you animals in, but aren't entitled any damages unless you make provisions to fence other animals out. This answers the legendary "which side of the T-post do I put the barbed wire on?" question. 

Whether he is a zebu or a charlais, he's a bull. He can smell a cow in heat for miles and unless you're prepared to build a stockade fence between your cow and the bull you're not going to be able to keep him out. If he only has 12 girls at home he's gonna get awful bored after they're bred.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Sounds like what she needs is a trio of catahoula cur dogs who will work the bull over and teach him NOT to trepass. Good luck. A good cattle dog will get the job done.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Cindy, 

I have read every post on the subject. I am so sorry your little Jersey had this happen. 

To the people who suggested that she load up the bull and take it to the yards, that isn't going to happen. Cindy is afraid (with good reason) of this bull. 

My suggestion is that you have YOUR HUSBAND talk to this southern ya-hoo. Sometimes, I still run into men down south who take nothing a woman says into account. They are sort of like Arabs in that respect. They do not respect women. 

I'm thinking this guy is buying his bulls at the yards. He's getting bulls cheap that other farmers have dumped because they won't respect fences. Not every bull sold goes into baloney. 

Call the police. This guy is not your good neighbor, so you're not losing anything. If the bull shows up again, load that shotgun with buckshot. Then, when he comes to get his bull, he'll use a winch, and he won't be able to sell him at the yards himself. Some people have to be hurt in the wallet to learn anything.


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## cjb (May 2, 2006)

I gave up before reading everything.

I'm sorry that this is happening to you and have to say that there is some really, really bad advice in this thread. Well meant maybe but... yikes.

I think that you need to call the authorities as this guy is clearly not taking responsibility for his lack of actions to contain the bull. Have them document the incident and let him know that you felt that you needed to do so for legal reasons. The local authorities will tell you what your rights are and you will NEED to have every incident documented if you are to pursure the issue legally in the future.

We tried to work out a dog/chicken issue with a neighbor for a frustratingly long time. When we did get the authorities involved, we had to start at that point, since we hadn't reported the first few incidents. The neighbor took the same approach (my dogs WILL do it again so you better cage up your chickens). She ended up losing her dog - legally.

Hang in there but report the incident and stand by your guns, in a friendly way.


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

Exactly CJB, That is what I have been saying too. Better start now with the authorities instead of later. Here in WI if a farm neglects his fence a neighboring farmer can have the fence put in new and it will be charged to the neglecting farmers taxes.
I worry about folks safety around bulls they don't know. That is why I said what I did about protecting oneself. But, first off do not put yourself in harms way. I work around our bulls daily and know their demeaner and attitudes. Key words not to say around the 2 bulls with the cows are bagel and apple. The young one loves bagels and the old guy loves apples. But, then again what cow doesn't.
Later
Bob


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

cjb said:


> I think that you need to call the authorities as this guy is clearly not taking responsibility for his lack of actions to contain the bull. )


Umm, the bull has gotten into her pasture ONCE.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Should we wait for the inevitable and let him get in again? If she files a report now, the second time it happens, the law enforcement might act verses waiting until a second time and then needing to see if it happens again (3rd time)


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

deineria said:


> Should we wait for the inevitable and let him get in again? If she files a report now, the second time it happens, the law enforcement might act verses waiting until a second time and then needing to see if it happens again (3rd time)


Hey, way to take a quote out of context........


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

lol - Okay. I don't know it how it was out of context. . .perhaps it was :yawn:


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## cjb (May 2, 2006)

deineria said:


> Should we wait for the inevitable and let him get in again? If she files a report now, the second time it happens, the law enforcement might act verses waiting until a second time and then needing to see if it happens again (3rd time)


^^ This.

If the farmer took responsibility, fixed her fence etc., I would think twice about reporting it. Since he did not, I would get it on record so that it counts against him if future action has to be taken.

Just once? It takes one time for this poor lady to have her prized pet maimed or killed or to get herself hurt or killed.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I'm seriously confused about the whole his fence and her fence thing. I keep getting the impression that this bull lived across the fence from the heifer but up here in the frozen north, we have shared fencline so there is only one fence separating parcels of land. Ideally, if someone's livestock damages the fence, they would be expected to repair it but typically, first on the scene brings the tools. 



Cindy in KY, is there a fenceline act for your area? That may start to spell out everybody's rights and obligations.


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

WR, we added field fence around the whole inside of our 12 acres. We have no place it is just barbed wire. His side of the fence is barbed wire on trees and posts. We have never had big cows or bulls. We have mini horses, a couple riding horses, the milk cow and a steer. The Jersey and the steer are now in the big back pasture, no neighbors at all. The bull has not been down there for a while now. The bull was not supposed to be loose in the pasture, he has a place down there to keep him contained.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I understand the fencing thing now and it sounds like he could use some upgrades on his fencing. 

I fully understand why you don't want his bull with your heifer but I don't think you can dictate how a neighbor utilizes their land, unless they are not complying with regulations or there is a binding contract in place so I'm inclined to think that you don't want him to use that particular pasture rather than the bull is not supposed to be there. Having said that, you are well within your rights to have him dealt with according to the law and I think it would be wise to gather accurate information now. I don't know of any place that doesn't take into consideration that things happen once in a while but provisions are certainly in place for habitual offenders.

If it happens again, take pictures, take pictures and document appropriately but stick to facts rather than emotion. If you have to take the matter to small claims court for restitution, you need to have your ducks in a row.


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