# Homestead Gun for



## BlueRose (Mar 7, 2013)

single woman. I want a good reliable gun that I can use for the following things:

1) home defense
2) hunting
3) protection of chickens, rabbits and goat

Can I get this with one gun or do I need 2?


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## bigjon (Oct 2, 2013)

2 should do.1 shotgun,1 rifle (close/far shooting) #3 pistol? optional.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Everyone has a preferance and ofcourse can learn/practice.For me, I like a shotgun. I've had to sleep outside in a lawn chair to get *****. I need glasses to see upclose, and a shotgun is usable for me without glasses. Now my dh, he uses a 22 and can wake up and hit a squirrl between the eyes. I'd need atleast a cup of coffee,just to wake up.
Maybe you can find someone that will let you try out all 3 and find what you are comfortable with.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the do everything gun is by far the the shotgun 12 or 20ga , if your small get the youth gun the 2 i like are the Remingtion 870 and mossberg 500 
if your left handed get the mossberg the safety is on top 
12 is just a touch easier to find ammo and gun wise but the 20 is also easy to find and a better choice for those who may be recoil sensitive and will do almost anything a 12 will do , the 12 can be hard on the shoulder , you won't notice when your in the heat of it but you will during practice and you nee to practice some 

my son got his mossberg 500c 20ga when he was 10 he shot it quite well , put a full or modified choke in it they normally come with one modified from the store buy a box of #6 shot for birds and small game like rabbit and squirrel , buy some slugs for deer , bear ,hogs , and buy buckshot for home defense, coyote , and things that you want dead around the chicken coop

get and improved cylinder choke or slug barrel for shooting slugs they sell it as a combo with both barrels also 

what this lacks is efficiency , some times you don't need shot gun power to dispatch a animal for butchering , or to hunt small game or deal with ***** around the chicken coop

take a safety class 

my grandpa farmed till he retired and had one gun his hole life a 12 ga shotgun it never failed to kill what he needed dead.

that said if you can find 22lr ammo right now a 22 is a great second gun it adds the efficiency and cost factor into dispatch and small game 

next up on my list would be a pistol , it adds the portability aspect , it is a gun that while not the best at the job is the most convenient to carry which means it is with you when you need it , if you had only said personal defense a pistol would have been first on the list

finally a longer range high power rifle would round out your 4 gun collection giving you the ability to hunt game or varmint at longer distances.

with a shotgun you need to know your pattern get some large pieces of card board and put a mark you can see like a square of tape on the center and aim at that and shoot one load at each card board from different distances label them , this will give you a better idea of where to aim and effective distance for the load and choke


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

As a smaller woman....I love the 20ga and .22 LR and .22 revolver

Shooting the 12 ga rattles my head...larger rifles are too loud and some kick way too much!


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

I have found that a shotgun works best. My favorite is the 410. With age sight is a concern and I'm not accurate with a .22. I can load a shotgun, aim, and know I can hit without being dead on accurate (20-70 foot range mostly).
I don't hunt, so that is not a factor for me--the animals would run away laughing I would miss so many times!
Home defense and protection of livestock.
Heaviness of the gun is a factor for us women--I don't have the strength in my arms to hold up a heavy long barreled gun that I had in my younger days. I need an uncomplicated gun--load, aim, shoot--I know nothing about guns really, know nothing about chokes, etc....I just know if I load and shoot--I want the critter dead if I get that far. 12 & 20 gauge shells are easy and cheap to find.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

perhaps i should explain chokes and shot size a bit 

a choke is a constriction a the end of the barrel , for many years the barrel was made with the constriction , MOD modified choke and FULL full choke were the most common this constriction helps to force the shot in the wad , the wad these days is a plastic cup that holds the shot in the shell and travels up and out the barrel holding the shot to keep the pattern.

now barrels often com with removable screw in chokes so that you can just change the insert at the end of the barrel for about 20 dollars and not the hole barrel at much greater cost of a 100 or more dollars 

cyclinder bore is no constriction at all 
then improved cylinder a slight constriction 
then modified , more constriction 
then full 
then extra full 
and now there are even some "turkey" that are tighter than extra full

slugs are safe to shoot through cylinder and improved cylinder screw in chokes , in fixed choke barrels with rifled slugs it was often done and i have never had any problem with it in my guns through a modified choke barrel the rifled type slugs are like a hollow cup of lead and are designed to swage down going trough a constriction as long as it is reasonable 

I like Winchester super x rifled slugs in the 15 round value pack , and federal true ball slugs these are foster type slugs and the projectile looks sort of like a lead thimble but thicker and it does work well on large game out to about 75 yards remigtion also makes a slug like this that works fine , each gun tends to have a favorite brand so you buy a box of each and try them on a paper target and use the one yor guns works best with.

shot #9 shot is almost like powdered lead it is so small there are 8 , 7 1/2 , 6 , 5,4 ,3 ,2 , b, bb ,bbb ,T, then buck shot , #4 , 000, and 00 being the most common 

6 do well on most small game and upland birds , 4and 5 are used on turkey you head shoot turkey, the smaller number is larger in size and are used on waterfowl although waterfowl shot needs to be steel now and not lead and there is a size difference between #2 steel and #2 lead 

buck shots #4 is the smallest adn those the balls are 22 caliber , 000 is about 30 caliber and 00 is about 36 caliber the smalle rthe ball the more of them you get a typical payload is between 9 and 15 for the larger and 20+for the smaller 

shot gun shells come in 2 3/4 inch 3 inch and 3 1/2 inch unless your going after water fowl or turkey your unlikely to need more than 2 3/4 inch shells , but most new guns are chambered in 2 3/4 or 3 inch with magnum guns chambered in the 3 1/2 inch these are often guns specialized for waterfowl or turkey hunting and not likely what your looking for 

pattern this is the spread of the shot at a distance it is best if you know how far out you can expect to have a good pattern with enough shot going to hit the target to effectively kill or disable it a pattern is a cone very much like the cone of light that comes from the end of a flash light pointed at a distan object at some point there cone fo light becomes to weak for you to clearly see the object likewise at some distance the cone of shot becomes to spread out for it to be effective like the focus on a flash ligth the choke focuses the cone of shot , but like a flash light there is only so much it can do to focus the cone


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## FireMaker (Apr 3, 2014)

I have an old single 12 that was shortened to 18.5 inches. The barrel was threaded for winchokes. I keep improved cylinder installed. Fantastic pattern at 40 yards. Same choke with slugs is exceptional and great for hunting. With the one gun up on the hill, we can do a lot.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

I second a pump shotgun as the single gun for a homesteader. Pick your gun by how it fits and how heavy it is for you, not by whether it is a 12 or 20 gauge. You want to be able to hit things with it.

The recoil is dependent on the charge of the shotgun shell and the weight of the gun. You can buy shotgun shells with a wide variety of shot charge weights and powder charges. Twelve and 20 gauge overlap to a great extent. For instance, you can buy either 12 or 20 gauge shells with a 1 oz load of shot and a powder charge that propels it to a velocity of 1300 feet per second at the muzzle. The force generated by accelerating the shot charge out the barrel is the same but the 12 gauge gun will seem to kick less because it weighs more than a 20. My dear old daddy did me a great disservice by starting me out with a bolt action 20 gauge. It kicked like a mule.

I recommend a 12 gauge if you can handle the weight. Remember that you have to carry it for hours when you go hunting.

I agree with Green Country Pete on most of what he says. I disagree with his statement, "if your left handed get the mossberg the safety is on top". The cross-bolt safety on a Remington 870 can be easily be taken out, reversed, and installed as a safety for the left handed shooter. I like the 870 over the Mossberg because it is sleeker and handles better for me. Both the Mossberg and the 870 eject the empty shells to the right. The emptys fly across the vision of a left handed shooter. If you are a left handed shooter or your household has both right and left handed shooters, you may want to consider spending a bit more for a gun that ejects out the bottom like the Browning BPS.

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/family.asp?webflag_=011B

They also make the 870 in a left handed version.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/left-hand/model-870-express-lh.aspx

I would not be afraid to save some money by getting a used gun in good shape. many guns are very well made and only get used during hunting season so they have very little wear and tear on them.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

nimrod i didn't know that you could do that on an 870 , but that brings up a point we were talking about in hunters ed two weeks ago 2 identical or nearly identical guns that operate differently 

my example was a newer and older marlin bolt action 22 on one the safety pulled back to fire the other forward to fire same lever same location almost identical guns of the same manufacture the magazine and bolt are different but not much 

turning around a cross bolt safety you best make sure it's your gun you pick up and your paying attention 

I did know you could turn around the safety on the Ithaca M37 but being right handed never had any need to.

I am getting to be a bigger advocate of doing something to personalize your gun if you spend time around a lot of other shooter with almost identical guns like trap league or 22 league 
I mark all the 4H guns with paint marker they have all been assigned numbers and have the county name written on them i can count the numbers as i put them in the cases and know i have all of them and they are all the right ones 


i have been at the range when a guy figures out his gun is missing , everyone goes over and identifies their gun and there is one unidentified gun left in the rack almost identical to the gun the guy is missing , luckily just then the guy who took it pulls in he said he got home and realized when he wiped it down to put it in the safe it wasn't his and brought it back out hoping the other guy hadn't taken his 

like nimrod said especially hunting guns get used a week or two a year then are cleaned and put away , as long as they are in good shape I don't worry about buying them but there is often littel difference in price as a well cared for used gun will sell for very close to a new gun these days in many places.


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

GCP---I appreciate all of the information, my BIL has tried to explain this to me many times 
I just don't understand it all----
I suppose he gave up when he brought me over some shells in a box--different colors, said some are brass (tried to explain the difference and had me shoot some) and finally gave up and said "any of these will kill a mean dog or stop someone that is trying to hurt you"
yep--that works
I've always used a shotgun---feel very comfortable with a shotgun---pistols make me nervous..
I suppose I should make everyone else nervous not knowing all the technical stuff and just load and shoot.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

I'll toss another vote into the shotgun box but I'd strongly suggest a 12 over a 20. A 20 can do _almost_ anything a 12 can but it can't do it all.

As I have said many times before only a shotgun will let you hunt everything from quail to elk and offer protection from everything from a rat to a bear all by doing nothing more than changing the type of ammo.


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

Believe me Bluerose---nothing looks more serious than a woman carrying around a shotgun doing chores--people either think you are an insane crazy lady, or are looking to shoot some critter and don't want to get shot by mistake. I truly believe my shotgun (pump) saved me one night. At 2 am I was awakened by someone pounding on the door--my property is not designed where anyone off the street would be knocking at this particular door---I was home alone--I immediately grabbed the gun and the pump made the cha cha--I know the person heard the noise as the pounding immediately stopped and I didn't hear anything--I was up the rest of the night with "bessy" ready just in case. Another poster was correct that the sound of a pump is distinct-and most criminal types know what that sound is.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

countrytime , the most important thing that you need to know is the numbers on the side of the barrel have to match the numbers on the back of the shell 

the gun will say **20ga 2 3/4 or 3 inch shells ** usually on the left side of the barrel and you only put shells that say 20ga shells in it usually i stick with 2 3/4 unless water fowl hunting 

they stress this repeatedly in hunters education , you might want to take hunters ed it is good very cheap training 

that said if it is home defense , dogs and critters that need killing around the farm just keep buck shot around , it don't even much matter what buck shot inside 25 yards there won't be much difference 

you got to aim but you don't need to be super precise 

in most cases the pattern is about the size of your fist at 20 feet double that at 40 and it doubles again about every 20 depending on the choke

you should shoot some card board at several distances to see how big your pattern is and that's about all i suppose you need to know 

I do like to point out TABK thsi is the acronym that is drilled into all hunters ed students 
T-treat every gun as if it is loaded 
A- always keep you muzzle in a safe direction (usually up or down) but never pointed at someone you don't intend to shoot 
B- be sure of your target and what is beyond for game this is be positive it is a legal animal of the proper sex and that no building or house is behind the target that you could hit, but for home defense this is make sure it is really a bad guy , use a light positive id and since it sounds like you live alone family members in the line of fire shouldn't be an issue 
K- keep your finger out of the trigger guard till you are ready to shoot , this is a hard one for so many people their finger just finds the trigger every time they pick up the gun , place your finger on the gun above the trigger guard finger strait out


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## hawgsquatch (May 11, 2014)

Savage 24B .22 over .410 shotgun. Its big enough for defense, will shoot .22 cb caps for rats and hollow points for squirrels or fox. It will use .410 slugs for deer if you want and a load of #6 shot will deter an intruder if they are close enough to harm you, yet it won't kill a kid in the next room. And when they hold it up in court because you shot the tweeker in your garage at 2 am, it looks like it came over on the Mayflower.


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> countrytime , the most important thing that you need to know is the numbers on the side of the barrel have to match the numbers on the back of the shell
> 
> the gun will say **20ga 2 3/4 or 3 inch shells ** usually on the left side of the barrel and you only put shells that say 20ga shells in it usually i stick with 2 3/4 unless water fowl hunting
> 
> ...


Thanks! This stuff I know--been shooting (Occasionally) for over 30 years--used to target shoot clays a lot-(ex always bought the bullets)----but start talking chokes, anything technical, I dont even know what an AR is....and my mind just goes blank (maybe age? hehe)--just give me an old shotgun and I'm fine--went to buy a new Remington 870 at Bass Pro and discovered they have plastic stocks now, and LAMINATED stocks--(the part that goes on your shoulder right?) -- they felt cheap--I like real wood. 

"that said if it is home defense , dogs and critters that need killing around the farm just keep buck shot around , it don't even much matter what buck shot inside 25 yards there won't be much difference"--yep that's what BIL says.....

Thanks for all the information---it really helps those of us who dont know or understand.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

countrytime said:


> Believe me Bluerose---nothing looks more serious than a woman carrying around a shotgun doing chores--people either think you are an insane crazy lady, or are looking to shoot some critter and don't want to get shot by mistake. I truly believe my shotgun (pump) saved me one night. At 2 am I was awakened by someone pounding on the door--my property is not designed where anyone off the street would be knocking at this particular door---I was home alone--I immediately grabbed the gun and the pump made the cha cha--I know the person heard the noise as the pounding immediately stopped and I didn't hear anything--I was up the rest of the night with "bessy" ready just in case. Another poster was correct that the sound of a pump is distinct-and most criminal types know what that sound is.


Same here with my 16 ga. "sweet 16" . Nothing like that sound of metal on metal when I hit the button.I can slide it silent too as I have when backing up Dh in the dark.


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

"will deter an intruder if they are close enough to harm you"
I hate to say this really, but if someone is breaking into my house and coming at me (likely scenario being a woman) they will be deterred alright--they will be dead. I will not shoot to wound (at legs or such) so they can grab my gun and use it on me, or worse do something terrible to me and then shoot me. I like a pump that can hold several rounds, as most intruders have a friend-at least in my area it seems when you hear of these things happening.
And no---I will NOT hesitate to kill an intruder that wants to harm me--you need to get your mind in the right place with this--especially since we are women--we have a "nurturing" side of us that could cost us our lives if we were to hesitate under these circumstances. Past experiences taught me about this--I have thought years about it. Think about this a lot before something of this nature possibly happens. *It's important.*


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

I have been seeing a lot of references to "tweakers" -- what are tweakers? thieves?


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## Breezy833 (Jun 17, 2013)

countrytime said:


> I have been seeing a lot of references to "tweakers" -- what are tweakers? thieves?


Drug addicts, spacifically meth and heroine. They look for things to steal to sell for more drugs.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

I think a mama practicing her "nurturing" side by bringing out the shotgun cuz she heard a funny noise when the kids are asleep in their beds is pretty awesome...


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

Breezy833 said:


> Drug addicts, spacifically meth and heroine. They look for things to steal to sell for more drugs.


Thanks. 
I really believe that the incident in the middle of the night was planned---my room was next to the door that was being pounded on--my windows were opened so I know they heard me engaging the pump on the gun---I really believe they were pounding frantically thinking someone would either come to the door or open it half asleep thinking it was the police in an emergency, or there was a major accident. Then they would of pushed their way in. This door has no outdoor light.


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

Yep--at my age I don't mess around. I have no fear of dying, and no one is getting in to hurt them if I can help it....


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

I officially adore you. So does my sixteen gauge and my three kids under ten lol


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

handymama said:


> I officially adore you. So does my sixteen gauge and my three kids under ten lol


Don't adore me too much LOL--I'm kind of a crotchety ole thing! But as more women take on the responsibility of running the farms and are alone during the day or night, I think it is very important that the hunting/gun men educate us or give us tips--but keep it very simple....
I can't even clean a gun-dont know how...I just pay or trade a great little hillbilly boy (in his 20's) (term of endearment-he's the sweetest thing!) to do it for me.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Oh, I don't know too awful much about it either. My hubby cleans mine. All I know is stick the buckshot in, point in the direction of dog, ****, crazy ex, or stalker, and shoot. Then if it's still alive, it definitely ain't coming at you anymore lol


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

cleaning isn't very hard , and to be honest most people never break a gun down and clean it all the way , most go a decade or more with a wipe down and patch down the barrel

heck most people don't shoot more than 25 rounds a year through their shotgun unless they enjoy trap or sporting clays , but for day to day home and farm use 

if all you ever did was wipe down the metal parts of a pump shotgun that you could reach with no disassemble with some 1 in 3 household oil you would probably be fine unless you hung out in the rain 

a little bottle of breakfree CLP http://www.amazon.com/Break-Free-Cl...&qid=undefined&sr=8-1&keywords=break+free+clp will last you many years and is a better metal preservative for humidity than 3 in 1

50/50 dextron ATF automatic transmission fluid and K1 kerosine mixed make a good gun oil also if you happen to have them around but that gets a bit more technical than click and order 

a bore snake http://www.amazon.com/Hoppes-24035-...409260532&sr=8-1&keywords=bore+snake+20+gauge put a few drops of CLP on the snake , unload the gun drip the weighted cord through the ejection port and down the barrel with the barrel pointed down then tip the gun up and pull the cord the rest follows and cleans the bore as long as you don't get the hold gun wet that is about all most people need till they get to about 1000 rounds then the barrel needs a solvent that will get the poly residue from the plastic wads out you can take it to a smith or pay some one to do this 

but unless your target shooting you will probably not make 1000 rounds of buck shot in a life time

I clean a bunch of guns and use more of the atf and K1 mix than anything else , but i am cleaning for a youth shooting sports program, we go through thousands of round and i regularly hang out in the rain so i break everything down


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

I've got that stuff sitting out in the barn, minus the snake thing. Cool! And no, I sure don't fire it often, mainly because a box of five sixteen gauge shells is almost eight dollars here.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

handymama said:


> I've got that stuff sitting out in the barn, minus the snake thing. Cool! And no, I sure don't fire it often, mainly because a box of five sixteen gauge shells is almost eight dollars here.



yeah welcome to owning an obscure gauge , I really expected that 16 was dead in a few more years but there are some holding on 

you may want to order a life time supply of it at some point if you can afford it , it is never going to get cheaper 

I talked to one store they said they bring some slugs in for 16 just before deer season and a few people always buy them up 

buck shot for a 16 is even more special , Midway usa, has it for about 6 dollars a box but you need to order enough to make up for shipping , or ask your local store to bring you in a case and pre pay for it


just a warning , *do not use type F transmission fluid* , it is not common but some times it is around it will say type F on the can 

this is the recipie i use for bore cleaner it specifies what ATF to use but if it says it is for dextron then it is the correct stuff https://home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/tech/eds_red.htm


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

I fell in love with the shotgun when my dad was fixing to pawn it. Its one of the ones made for Sears roebuck back in 1953, a bolt action higgens something or other. Too neat to let it get pawned.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

handymama said:


> I fell in love with the shotgun when my dad was fixing to pawn it. Its one of the ones made for Sears roebuck back in 1953, a bolt action higgens something or other. Too neat to let it get pawned.


we have a 20 ga tube feed JC Higgins bolt action in the family , it was my great uncles first gun in about 1950


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Sounds like the same thing but a different gauge. It'll really blast a raccoon but you will be very deaf afterwards lol


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

stick to the buck even though it is expensive , I was helping a freind with a **** that was in his corn crib some years back , i grabbed his Montgomery ward pump 20 from next to the door in his barn and he grabbed his 22 he had a box of shells i grabbed a slug then 3 bird shot #6 and loaded them so i would get the bird shot first then the slug last , I got the shot when we got it out of the crib , I was 25 feet away and could see the shot hitting and knocking over the **** but it would get right back up , I had time to pump 3 bird shot in him , then i hit him with the slug and he was done. won't use shot for anything but birds now


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Wow that's awesome. I'm feeling like I need to get me some type of pistol too though, as its easier to carry around. Plus if I need to put an animal down like a horse or something, buckshot would be cruel. Gotta get a carry permit first of course.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

And some things with buckshot are stupid. Hubby was about to shoot a copperhead on a pile of rocks three feet away before I jerked the gun away and asked if he was trying to kill his self.


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## hawgsquatch (May 11, 2014)

A small note about buckshot.....its very limited in its effectiveness. It bounces off of windshields and hard surfaces, it deforms and leaves holes in the pattern. It fails to penetrate on thick skinned targets. It reduces its energy into .22 sized projectiles which being spherical transfer less energy. It is really outdated. The only thing it's good for is penetrating wallboard and killing your kids in the next room when half the pattern misses the bad guy in the kitchen. If I had to put down a rabid coyote or fox a load of three inch BBs' will kill it dead with no potential collateral damage. If the bad guy is behind a tree a 1 ounce copper Brenneke slug will kill the tree before it kills him. I think the ultimate home defense round is a load of #6 lead. It will devastate and attacker yet leave the family and neighbors safe. I do like rubber buckshot for ***** and skunks under a house. It kills em and doesn't risk safety.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Yea, we had a stupid rooster kept sneaking up and attacking my daughter. All I had was the shotgun with buckshot so I couldn't shoot it. Then dad walked around the corner with a colt .22 single shot Magnum. The bullet went completely thru the rooster and it kept running. Never saw it again but it was messy...


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Would slugs for a sixteen gauge be cheaper than buckshot, given that it's such an odd guage?


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## hawgsquatch (May 11, 2014)

handymama said:


> Would slugs for a sixteen gauge be cheaper than buckshot, given that it's such an odd guage?


While an absolutely excellent gauge, unfortunately the sixteen is basically obsolete in this country. Go for a twenty with three inch shells or a twelve with 2-3/4. I do not know if Active is still around, but they were my best source for sixteen gauge ammo when I had one.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Thank you!


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

Thanks for the tip on the 6 shot Hawgsquatch--wow what a username hehe.
So #6 will work good for mean stray dogs and not travel far? 
My daughter wants a target thrower for her birthday--she has a 12 gauge single shot...
I was thinking to get her regular loads instead of target loads so they would be dual purpose--can someone educate me on this? What would be the shells to buy.


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## hawgsquatch (May 11, 2014)

countrytime said:


> Thanks for the tip on the 6 shot Hawgsquatch--wow what a username hehe.
> So #6 will work good for mean stray dogs and not travel far?
> My daughter wants a target thrower for her birthday--she has a 12 gauge single shot...
> I was thinking to get her regular loads instead of target loads so they would be dual purpose--can someone educate me on this? What would be the shells to buy.


I would practice with trap and skeet loads # 7-1/2 and these will work just fine for varmints. If you wish to kill a stray dog and not maim it, you should shoot magnum BB's or #4 buck. I would not recommend shooting anything that isn't threatening you or yours as we live in a very litigious society and you don't want to be responsible for such an issue as a shot family pet.

Oh, the screen name is because I live in Bigfoot's back yard.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

slugs while not much cheaper are more available for 16 

I see slugs getting harder to find also , about half of Wisconsin was slug only until last year now just a few small pockets are , 650,000 deer tags issues for the 9 day season hear if 250,000 to 300,000 people had to use slugs and no longer that's a chunk of the slug market do, Ohio the hole state was slug only for deer this year they approved strait wall rifle cartridges like 45/70 , and pistol cartridges like 44mag

it will of course take time for people to switch and some never will but there are a lot of reasonably priced shotguns in southern Wisconsin new because many have put them up for sale to buy a rifle 

I thinl that some of these slug only areas had people using shot guns when they would have not otherwise and may have been keeping 16 alive for slugs any way


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

hawgsquatch said:


> A small note about buckshot.....its very limited in its effectiveness. It bounces off of windshields and hard surfaces, it deforms and leaves holes in the pattern. It fails to penetrate on thick skinned targets. It reduces its energy into .22 sized projectiles which being spherical transfer less energy. It is really outdated. The only thing it's good for is penetrating wallboard and killing your kids in the next room when half the pattern misses the bad guy in the kitchen. If I had to put down a rabid coyote or fox a load of three inch BBs' will kill it dead with no potential collateral damage. If the bad guy is behind a tree a 1 ounce copper Brenneke slug will kill the tree before it kills him. I think the ultimate home defense round is a load of #6 lead. It will devastate and attacker yet leave the family and neighbors safe. I do like rubber buckshot for ***** and skunks under a house. It kills em and doesn't risk safety.


there is always potential collateral damage but smaller shot reduces it 

there are a bunch of sizes of buck shot #4 is becoming more popular because it has more but smaller about 20 22cal or .22 inch balls in a single shell , this provides penetration yet limits it in range while giving more projectiles on target 

the way #6 works at very close distances inside 20 feet is that it is still traveling as one mass in the wad , but very shortly past that it spreads and becomes ineffective 

if it worked that well i would be short a co-worker who was shot at close range just across a room less than 15 feet with a load of #6 , they had to reroute his stomach for a while, it produces a gruesome flesh wound but often won't reach vital organs when needed to , he has lived 20 some years after being shot , he was shot by a schizophrenic room mate in college.

several swat teams have moved to #4 buck and that would be my first choice 

but i know my grandfather used #4 shot for most everything on the farm , it was cheap and worked at inside the barn distances but he also used a 12ga with a full choke for everything , it patterned very tight i shot one of my first squirrels with that gun at nearly 40 yards and #6 the pattern was about 3 feet at that distance but adequately dense that i had 6 pellets in that tree rat i had to pick them out so we could eat it for dinner.

part of why you need to pattern any gun with any given load at a few distances to know where your going to hit and with how much shot


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

My two cents on shot size selection.

For rats, small birds and such I use 7 1/2.

For rabbit and larger birds I use 6.

For general/large varmint control (feral cats, ***** and dogs at close range) I use 4.

For defense against larger critters I usually keep it loaded with two #4 buckshot followed by two 00 (double ought) buckshot and the final round is a slug.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

A few thoughts,

Green Country Pete talks about putting the right ammunition in a shotgun. The size of the chamber is stamped onto the barrel. Always use shells of the gauge stamped on the barrel. A 12 guage barrel may say for 2 3/4, 3, or 3 1/2 inch shells. A 20 gauge barrel for 2 3/4 or 3 inch shells. You are not limited to the length of shell stamped on the barrel. You are limited to the length stamped on the barrel or shorter. For instance, it is perfectly OK to shoot 2 3/4 inch shells from a barrel stamped for 3 inch.

I like GCP's idea about personalizing your gun. When I teach gun safety I stress that you have to know your gun intimately. When you are sitting in a deer stand or duck blind in the dark and waiting for the sun to come up, you want to make the noise loading your gun and putting the safety on in the dark, not just before legal shooting time. When I was in college my best area of study was "the human female anatomy by the brail method" and this is similar.

I am not a fan of racking the action of a pump as a warning when someone is breaking into your house. If you do that it means that either the chamber was empty or you just ejected a live shell. In either case you have just reduced the number of shells your shotgun holds by one. I do get that you might want to keep an empty chamber for safety if you have other family members that could get their hands on the gun. If you have a home invasion with 4 or 5 perpetrators you will need every round the gun will hold. This is also why I can't recommend a single shot as an all around gun. 

I have always used Hoppe's # 9 to remove the gunpowder residue followed by gun oil to prevent rust. I like the smell of #9 almost as much as the smell of burned gunpowder. This has worked well for decades until I picked up a couple guns that needed something else. I bought a 1962 Browning Superposed 2 barrel set that had quite the build up of plastic in the full choke barrels. The T17 Foaming Bore Cleaner and a wire brush removed the plastic with a bit of elbow grease. I have shot a lot of trap, with other guns, without the plastic build up when cleaning with the #9 so I don't know what the previous owner was using. I also got a Smith and Wesson 586 revolver with a nickle coating. I happened to discover that if you leave a coating of #9 on this gun it will cause the nickle to separate from the gun. I have started cleaning it with RemOil instead and it seems to work OK. 

I like #4 buck for self defense. Each pellet is like a 22 bullet. It will defiantly, "git er done". I don't have to worry about shooting other members of the household because I live alone. I also happen to have about 20 pounds of it sitting in a coffee can from back in the day when they sold it by the 25 pound bags for the same price as any other size and I was loading it for pass shooting geese.


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

hawgsquatch said:


> I would practice with trap and skeet loads # 7-1/2 and these will work just fine for varmints. If you wish to kill a stray dog and not maim it, you should shoot magnum BB's or #4 buck. I would not recommend shooting anything that isn't threatening you or yours as we live in a very litigious society and you don't want to be responsible for such an issue as a shot family pet.
> 
> Oh, the screen name is because I live in Bigfoot's back yard.


Thanks for the info...
I know the law very well---I'll just leave it at that...The law in Indiana is very specific that you can kill a dog that is injuring or harassing your livestock. My chickens have been wiped out twice this summer, and both dogs also threatened/tried to bite me when I tried to chase them off. I have also been trapped in my barn on MY OWN property by loose pitbulls where the sheriffs department had to come with guns drawn to rescue me (luckily I had my cell phone in my pocket to call for help but no gun drats!)...unless it is a friendly dog that is lost that is not killing my animals ..well,,,you can surmise the rest of the story. These however are not stray dogs--the strays that come around here are scared of people and usually run when they see you--they often eat out of the dog food bowl I leave on my porch--I have no problems with them coming around as long as they dont kill animals or bite me. I have never (so far) had an incidence with a stray/wild dog...these are dogs that are owned by people that regularly let them run or they have escaped their pen or whatever....again if their friendly I have no issues and try to find the owner--but I'll be danged if a dog on my property is going to kill my food and try and bite us...


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

Nimrod-"I am not a fan of racking the action of a pump as a warning when someone is breaking into your house. If you do that it means that either the chamber was empty or you just ejected a live shell"
This particular gun was empty at the time--but was the closest/quickest to grab and load.


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

Watcher--can you explain why you do this? "For defense against larger critters I usually keep it loaded with two #4 buckshot followed by two 00 (double ought) buckshot and the final round is a slug."--do you eject what you dont need to get to the one you need? Is that the idea of loading them this way?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

countrytime said:


> Watcher--can you explain why you do this? "For defense against larger critters I usually keep it loaded with two #4 buckshot followed by two 00 (double ought) buckshot and the final round is a slug."--do you eject what you dont need to get to the one you need? Is that the idea of loading them this way?


You could eject the one you didn't need. I load them that way because each following has more range, less coverage but more individual punch than the other. I figure if a furball starts its most likely to start up close and if possible I'm going to try to get farther away from where it started ASAP but I still want to be able to reach out and touch any thing which has other ideas.


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

My vote would actually be for three weapons, with very different uses. I know you said one, but guns are tools, and just like you wouldn't drive a nail with a pipe wrench, you really need the right gun for the job.

1) As others have said -- a shotgun. My favorite shotgun is an antique 16 gauge breech loading single shot that has been in the family for generations. It's dead simple to operate and, for a shotgun, doesn't weigh or kick much. Can't remember the manufacturer at the moment. Unfortunately, it's also my father's favorite gun, so *my* shotgun is a modern pump action mossberg 12 gauge with interchangeable barrels -- short and long, short for when I need a wide pattern and long with a choke for hitting things at a distance. 

A 12 gauge with buckshot will pretty much stop anything you want it to stop short of a grizzly. My mossberg is generally loaded with one round of birdshot, then two rounds of buckshot. I'm most likely to need it for dispatching a rattlesnake or a coyote, and the birdshot will work for that, but if I need to shoot a bear or a lion, that's what the buckshot is for. 

I also have slugs for the 12 gauge in case I need to put an animal down. I've been in the unfortunate situation of needing to shoot a goat that had been mauled by a dog and not having any suitable ammunition on hand. I never want to listen to an animal scream in pain like that again and not be able to end her suffering quickly. (I had just decided to slit her throat with a knife when she passed.)

We have a couple .177 caliber air rifles for varmit control. They're good for target practice (great guns to learn on), and are great on anything up to about jackrabbit size with the right kind of hunting ammo. I routinely dispatch squirrels, gophers, and the like with them. They're very accurate and very light, and the ammo is really cheap. Get one with a scope if you have vision problems like I do (severe myopia and astigmatism) -- the scope makes a huge difference. 

As a side note, it IS possible, with a lucky shot, to kill a large animal with an air rifle. I've killed a large dog (GSD) that was going after my goats with a lung shot when I had no other weapon handy. I was actually aiming for his head but he was running and turned at the last second. (And then I literally bought my shotgun the very next day.) A gut shot will generally kill a large animal too, but it's a long and nasty way to die and not something I'd deliberately do. However, you're not likely to make a humane kill that way, and there's no stopping power. I just want to note this because some people think air rifles are toys and they are definitely NOT. They should be treated with the same amount of caution and respect as any other rifle. 

I'd like to upgrade to a .22 air rifle, but a good one is a bit spendy. I like air rifles because they're quiet (the noise they make is about like a pneumatic nail gun), and in my area, they're legal to shoot around buildings. I can't legally shoot squirrels in my yard with my shotgun but I can with an air rifle. Even if I could shoot the tree rats with a shotgun I'd still use the pellet gun -- it's less likely to put holes in my veggies, and the noise doesn't startle the neighbors. (In Arizona, except in emergencies, "firearms" can't be fired within 1/4 mile of any sort of building or trailer, including travel trailers. A pellet gun is not considered a firearm.) 

I would also suggest a sidearm of your choice. A long gun is hard to carry around all the time. 

If you live in the country, there WILL be times you will want to be armed. For example, last summer, we had a (suspected) rabies outbreak here and both my father and I had our guns pretty much glued to our hips. 

I carry my pistol when I'm berry picking or hiking, particularly if I have the goats or dogs with me when I'm hiking. We have bears and lions here, but I'm actually more worried about rabid critters. The human element is a distant concern and I'm not really that worried about critters coming after me (unless rabid) but I do worry about the safety of my animals. Dogs are on the menu for some lions, and everything bobcat size and up considers goats tasty. 

If I could only have one weapon, it would be a sidearm of some kind because it's pretty hard to carry a shotgun on your hip, but I would REALLY miss my air rifle ...

ETA: Before buying a shotgun, be sure to try that model out. I wish I'd gotten a different model of shotgun. That 12 gauge has a heckuva kick and I don't shoot it nearly as often as I should because it makes me sore. The last time I took it out and practiced with it, I had bruises later. If I were actually hunting something that I needed a shotgun for, I'd probably borrow my father's 16 gauge. It kicks less, and it's lighter, so my arms don't get fatigued as fast. My 12 gauge is perfectly serviceable and is the "right tool" for a lot of jobs, and I just suck it up and deal with it when I shoot it (I'm a big girl, a few bruises aren't that big of a deal) but it's definitely not my favorite gun by a long shot.


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

Walmart had 100 rds of #8 (game and target) on sale for $19.99--would the #8 be O.K. for shooting clays? or should I get the 7 or 7 1/2?--they only had small boxs of these.


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

Cygnet--I was actually looking at an air pistol yesterday--again, just handling it made me nervous and sick to my stomach...I just cannot use a pistol.
I love my 410 pump--it is smaller than the 12 g and easier for me to use as it kicks less and weighs less. It does need a new barrel and I have looked everywhere with no luck...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

countrytime said:


> Walmart had 100 rds of #8 (game and target) on sale for $19.99--would the #8 be O.K. for shooting clays? or should I get the 7 or 7 1/2?--they only had small boxs of these.


#8 is a 1/2 size smaller than 7 1/2 and is common for shooting clays 

clays are fragile and all your looking to do is make a noticeable split or break so that you score , if one pellet hits it it will break so these are good practice but not good for much else but really small stuff at close ranges like dove small check your pattern with sheets of cardboard to see what your range will be if you r looking to kill small game with shot you need the pattern dense enough that if you were to cover that small game with it it would be hit by several pellets


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

Thanks!


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## BlueRose (Mar 7, 2013)

Thank you all for your advice and teaching the tech stuff.


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

Bluerose--another idea for you is to visit the ammo/fishing dept at Walmart--with hunting season coming up I occasionally talk to the men (never any women around???) there for advice on some things...they have always been very nice (watch out for weirdos however and dont give any personal information). In fact one yesterday told me to buy clays and 12g now as there is a tournament coming up and they will be sold out by next week. I love asking questions on here also so as to not drive my BIL crazy


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

Size 7 1/2 pellets are .095 inches in diameter, 8s are .090. The difference is minimal. There is a game called handicap trap that is shot at longer ranges than regular trap. Some folks feel that the 7 1/2 work better for that. Here is a chart of what size shot to use for every occasion.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shot_info.htm

If you get into it, you will want to pattern your gun with different sizes of shot. My 870 patterns everything beautifully except #4. That size produces patterns with holes you could throw a cow through.

Countrytime, The 410 needs a new barrel? What's wrong with the old one? The price of new barrels has gone nuts. When I replaced the barrel on my 870 with one with interchangeable chokes and a vent rib it cost about $100. Now they are about $300. You can just about buy a whole new gun for what a new barrel costs. Maybe you should just buy a new gun? You might want to consider moving up to at least a 20 gauge. The bigger gauges throw out a lot more shot and result in cleaner kills on game. A clean kill is a primary objective when I go hunting. Also ammo is cheaper and easier to find.


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

Well to make a long story short....when I bought my place the neighbor told me he was an ex State Policeman who worked on guns--since I needed mine cleaned he offered to do it for me...my gun came back with a bent barrel at the tip..I didnt even notice it at first--I was busy that day--just paid him and put it in the case...I got it out about 4 months later to show my BIL something, and when I looked down the barrel I noticed it bent the last 3 inches of the barrel. I was crushed..I have had this gun a loooong time--it is my favorite. The next time I saw the neighbor I mentioned it and he said he didnt notice anything...so I just let it go...I have since learned he is a liar, untrustworthy, and the whole family is nuts (he was never a LEO).  There was no way it got bent after I got it back--it was in a case the entire time...I dont even know how he could of bent it--I really suspect he swapped mine out and sold my barrel. For 2 years I have looked and looked..nothing, and the last time I was in Bass Pro I even broke down crying at the counter explaining my predicament trying to find a replacement to a nice gentleman showing me an 870...and believe me--I rarely get teary eyed.....I just loved that gun....I was told you cant get a "new" barrel--they dont make them anymore for my gun (46F)
The gun is now with my BIL in Florida who is going to look down there for a replacement barrel--I really really hope he finds one and I get my good old gun back the next time I see them....I know he will do his best for me. I know it sounds silly, but no other gun is the same for me.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

I'm so sorry. I would have been very upset too. I really hope he finds one!


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

thanks HM--when my BIL left my house he said "I dont know when I'll see you again to get it back to you"
I said "If I die first keep the gun!" 
Nimrod: I have other guns.....I dont know if anyone would understand, but I loved that 410--it was always MY gun..it fit me perfectly, I knew it's idiosyncrasies, and me and it got along wonderfully. I even tried out a new one, it wasnt the same...


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Some things are worth more for their emotional value than a lot of people would understand. That's your gun. Nothing else, no matter how much more practical, will be your gun.


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## countrytime (Sep 23, 2012)

Yes--that gun rode under the seat in my pickup (loaded) for quite a few years--across many states---I didnt even know you were NOT allowed to do that!  Thank god I never did anything bad where someone had to search my truck--I probably would have went to jail and they would of took my gun!
In fact when I was trapped in the barn by the pitbulls it was in my truck in the pasture where I was working on fence--just went back to the barn to get some more fencing staples when the dogs came.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

many shotgun barrels can be cut back and threaded for a choke as long as your still longer than 18 1/2 inches after the cut back your fine legally 


I like the 21 inch barrel on the 870 20ga youth it is a handy length and balances nice 


I had a friend loan out one of his shotguns , the idiot he let borrow it got a barrel obstruction in the end and peeled the barrel right open for the last few inches . it was one of those you can't get a barrel for it any more guns he cut it off at 18 3/4 with a hack saw cleaned up the end with a file and it is a cylinder barrel now not much for any distance but fine for buck shot up close


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Ooh, I would be hopping mad...


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

This may sound dumb, but how do you even get a barrel obstruction without blowing yourself to bits?


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

back wehn i was in high school a buddy and i went dove hunting, someway or other he got some mud in the barrel of his shotgun, when he shot it it split the barrel about 3 or 4 inches back from the muzzle.. We came back to the house and put it in a vise and cut the damaged part off and went back out, later he had another bead put on, that old 12 ga went to improved cylinder and he got a lot more dove from then on.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Oh. Didn't even know that could happen.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

barrel obstruction

well , this one was being used for a call to arms for a flag ceremony , blanks were not very available at the time pre internet no stores carried them , so prying open the crimp on the end of a cheap target load shot gun shell and dumping out the shot gave a usable option it was a remote scout camp, and it had been used several times before like this there was a sizable swamp in the direction it was shot and no people , well the guy who fired got a squib this was some how the powder in this old shell was wet or something any way it went pop not boom , and he being an idiot opened up the break action gun placed another round in and fired , it would have been stupid easy to look down the bore as it was a break action but he didn't.

I do believe that ended that practice

the most common is mud or snow , very easy to get a scoop of snow in a barrel if you trip or stumble , always check 

my dad tripped and fell a few years ago , plugged up the end of his 12 ga , i keep a cleaning rod in the truck , we went back to the truck and i had to take the barrel off his gun and push the mud plug back out then i ran a few patches with penetrating oil as i had a can in the back of my truck , then i put his barrel back on and besides the limp from twisting his ankle he was back in business , he sat the rest of the day in a camp chair for hunting


squibs happen , any time a gun fires and does not feel right not enough recoil sound sounded off , immediately unload and check the barrel is clear 

"Tap racks" are something practiced to learn to better deal with weapons stoppage , specifically on semi auto pistols we call it a tap rack , imagining the shooter is right handed ,the trigger is pulled and click no shot fired , you slap the bottom of the magazine with the heal of the left hand to make sure the magizine is fully seated a some what common problem affecting feed then rack the slide with the left hand and your back in action.
the goal is to be back in action fast and your shooting partner will load dummy cartridges in your magazine for you so you dn't know when it is comming, you shoot a bank of targets often steel and often with a timer timing your shots the goal is speed accuracy and combat pistol readiness , but the practice has in some places been changed to tap rack , ready , this is you perform the tap rack then when ready to fire the timer is stopped manually , only takes a tap rack kaboom to change that sometimes squibs happen powder gets contaminated , or no powder was loaded , but the primer is enough to move the bullet into the barrel 
in tap rack ready the operator then removes the magazine clears the chamber and verifies the barrel is free of obstruction , then returns the fun to loaded and resumes the course of fire


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