# Might as Well Stay On Grid



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Where we are thinking of building it doesn't get enough sunlight,not much wind,spring don't run fast enough for power.

Thought about using enough Solar to run T.V. and Computers rest on Propane.Just found out I might have to haul it back here myself via 100# Bottles.

It will be better by being cooler in the Summer and less wind in the Winter.

Only thing we might do is use Wood for Cooking and Heat just wondering if using the extra space is justfied?

big rockpile


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Got any clearings NEAR your house? Like within 100ft or so? With higher voltages, you can run longer wire with less loss. 
Other good uses for solar are direct drive attic fans, direct drive water pumps, etc.

So grid power is readily and reasonably available? Go for it, those ACs take a lot of juice. Your summers are about like ours here...hot and humid. I've lived the past 6 summers with no appreciable AC, and it gets downright uncomfortable for about two months. Last year I got a small window unit that took the edge off the heat and humidity... but it took most of my 1.1KW PV setup to do it. So I could only run it during the day... Not efficient, and not enough to cool the house down.

Solar prices have come down quite a lot these past few years... it may be cost effective for you to generate a SMALL portion of your use, and sell back the excess to the grid. Provided you have a site with good solar exposure, I'd say at least 75% of the available sun. Theres lots of big old oak trees down that way im guessing...


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Use straight vegetable oil to run a diesel generator.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

greg273 said:


> Got any clearings NEAR your house? Like within 100ft or so? With higher voltages, you can run longer wire with less loss.
> Other good uses for solar are direct drive attic fans, direct drive water pumps, etc.
> 
> So grid power is readily and reasonably available? Go for it, those ACs take a lot of juice. Your summers are about like ours here...hot and humid. I've lived the past 6 summers with no appreciable AC, and it gets downright uncomfortable for about two months. Last year I got a small window unit that took the edge off the heat and humidity... but it took most of my 1.1KW PV setup to do it. So I could only run it during the day... Not efficient, and not enough to cool the house down.
> ...


I'll be 1,000 foot down in the holler.Trying to keep as many trees around as we can.Have a small area that clear for drive and small Garden but I'm just hoping on enough light for the garden.

I'm thinking its going to be cool enough down there have to run very little A/C.

In was checking too I was thinking of running alot of 12v DC the way I understand with DC it runs Hotter and more fire danger than running 120v A/C.

big rockpile


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

big rockpile said:


> I'll be 1,000 foot down in the holler.Trying to keep as many trees around as we can.Have a small area that clear for drive and small Garden but I'm just hoping on enough light for the garden.
> 
> I'm thinking its going to be cool enough down there have to run very little A/C.
> 
> ...


Low voltage DC usually requires larger wires,
If, for example, you want to run a circular saw, at 120 volts, it draws 7 amps while running. 120volts x 7amps = 840 watts. Well within the range of 12gauge romex...

If that same saw is run off a 12volt battery bank through an inverter, then thats 70amps being drawn through that wire! 
Because voltage dropped to 12, and the amount of work needed to run the device, (aka, wattage) stays the same, the less efficiently the electrons flow through the wire,therefore more flow is needed. That 'flow' is amperage. And more amperage means more electrons passing through a given amount of wire per second. Which generates heat. 
The lower voltage needs a LARGER wire to do the SAME work...

Voltage is also known as the 'electromotive force'... 

Now when you up the VOLTAGE, the same work gets done with fewer actual electrons...fewer amps....LESS HEAT. Smaller wires necessary. Makes a huge difference over longer distances. Its a great thing, actually. Cuts the wire sizes down dramatically, which saves you money.

As long as you keep the wire runs short, you can probably do a lot with 12volt DC...just keep in mind , to do serious work, (drills, saws, etc) you'd need larger wire than standard 12gauge Romex. Burning outlets are no good! 12volt DC equipment is generally harder to find than standard 120AC.

www.backwoodssolar.com is a link to a great store in Idaho. They can send you a free catalog/planning guide which explains a lot. Really a great resource. And they have a helpful staff if you have questions...


Another reason DC burns 'hotter' than AC....Alternating current changes polarity many times per second...it's less likely to generate an arc. DC flows in one direction, it'll arc like crazy.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

So in truth your better to run through an Inverter and watch Wattage.I was hoping to bypass the Inverter and just go 12v for the most part.

big rockpile


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## PD-Riverman (May 24, 2007)

I have 3 small trailers setup with 8 batteries on each trailer, my solar array is out in the open field and I rotate these trailers as needed with my golfcart to my place in the trees. I have quick disconnects on all of them, so changing every 2 or 3 days only takes less than 5 minutes--About as much time as feeding the chickens. My Choise to live in the woods, but doing solar this way Works good for me.





big rockpile said:


> Where we are thinking of building it doesn't get enough sunlight,not much wind,spring don't run fast enough for power.
> 
> Thought about using enough Solar to run T.V. and Computers rest on Propane.Just found out I might have to haul it back here myself via 100# Bottles.
> 
> ...


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

If you have plenty wood that stove would be a priority,cooking,heating and hot water,thats a winner for sure!


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

The most important thing about building a new house is to site it properly. If the site didn't allow for a passive solar design (good southern exposure for solar gain), I wouldn't consider it a good house site and would build someplace else. In my opinion, nothing is more important.


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## byexample (Aug 28, 2009)

big rockpile said:


> So in truth your better to run through an Inverter and watch Wattage.I was hoping to bypass the Inverter and just go 12v for the most part.
> 
> big rockpile


For a run of any serious length 12 volt DC is problematic as it requires really large wires to support any sort of serious draw. 12 volt is fine for short runs (like in a trailer) but it's a whole different thing for a large house, etc.. Using an inverter to go up to 120V AC costs a wee bit of power as far as inefficiency goes... but you can use smaller wires to handle the same amount of power. And copper is very expensive these days.

Also the world is littered with all manner of 120V AC appliances. By comparison there are far fewer 12V DC appliances and they tend to be over-priced and under-powered compared to their 120V AC counterparts.

When I first left the grid 6+ years ago I gathered up almost every AC appliance I had and gave them away to my friends and family convinced that I'd never be able to afford to use those big, power-hungry AC appliances on a smaller solar power system. We bought a number of small 12V DC appliances and we lived the mostly 12V DC lifestyle for better than a year. As time went on we realized that using "real" 120V AC appliances wasn't the power-hardship that we had expected.

After years of slowly upgrading our power system and carefully shopping for energy-efficient appliances we operate a wide variety of gizmos and appliances on our solar rig -- almost all of those via 120V AC.

My advice to anyone going off grid these days is to plan on using an inexpensive inverter and stay focused on using 120V AC for most needs. It's my experience that the benefits far out-weight the downsides.

Best of luck with the new place!


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2011)

Rockpile,

I am moving to my cabin this spring. My desire is to have backups to my backups. Currently it is grid tied, it has a wood stove, and it has a propane furnace. I have to haul in 100 lb propane tanks since I told the propane company to take a long walk on a short pier and remove their tank.

I can heat with electric or propane as long as the electricity is on, although I expect to heat mainly with wood. I am going to stay grid tied until the electric rates get too high to afford. The price of solar is coming down and may be affordable in a few years. There is not enough wind where I am for a wind turbine. Once I get settled I will start experimenting with wood gas to run a generator. I want to be self sufficient and I have lots of wood so this is how I can do it. i may also buy a 500 gallon propane tank and keep it full as a prep/way to have heat if I get sick.

This is what I'm doing. maybe you can adapt some of it to your situation.


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## Esteban29304 (Apr 29, 2003)

Many of us,, including myself, have good intentions of getting off the grid & producing our own power. But, we find out it is usually just toooo expensive compared to the per kwh cost of electricity.
I suggest going over your home , your ilifestyle , & all its electrical needs & figure out how to conserve as much as possible & still have a comfortable life.


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## Le Petit Norman (Apr 28, 2008)

PD-Riverman said:


> I have 3 small trailers setup with 8 batteries on each trailer, my solar array is out in the open field and I rotate these trailers as needed with my golfcart to my place in the trees. I have quick disconnects on all of them, so changing every 2 or 3 days only takes less than 5 minutes--About as much time as feeding the chickens. My Choise to live in the woods, but doing solar this way Works good for me.


never though about that will remember it


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

Every situation is a little different. In Rockpile's situation, going low voltage would be expensive, being his panels would be way up yonder and him being down in the holler.

Another scenario is to what level one chooses to find comfort. Over the years, I've become very creative with my 12 volt system. Most days I never use an inverter but I do have provisions to operate a microwave or a vacume sweeper. A.C. is just an "On Demand" issue and I avoid it as much as possible.

I'm totally content with my system that wouldn't support a standard fridge for a day..


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I started with no electricity at all and built a small 12 volt solar system, then I found the water baby at a junk store and added that when I moved out here full time, it is 24 volt and runs the refrigerator. Wood stove for heat, cooking and hot water. A solar heater and passive solar for heat and solar water heater to preheat the water for the woodstove coil and for hot water in the summer. Also runs a small pump for my 6'x8' leanto aquaponic greenhouse. The greenhouse warms my shop. Suprising how little electrical power is really needed....James


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