# AR pistol



## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

I've been an activist for years and I know the Goons hate me but...

Even though I don't have a brace for this do you think it's a 3AM Alphabet Boys death sentence?

Edit to add: all my other ARs (and orher rifles) have long enough barrels I'm not concerned about them.


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## Big_Al (Dec 21, 2011)

I've always felt that these were pointless weapons, a solution looking in vain for a purpose.
But hey, that's just me.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

For curiosity I'd pull the trigger. Then hand it off. That's about all for me.

To me these are special purpose close quarters guns. Why would I want one of those? Why would you?

If there was such a thing in 45-70 I'd buy one and shoot it once.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

JRHill02 said:


> For curiosity I'd pull the trigger. Then hand it off. That's about all for me.
> 
> To me these are special purpose close quarters guns. Why would I want one of those? Why would you?
> 
> If there was such a thing in 45-70 I'd buy one and shoot it once.


When ammo got expensive I wanted something AR chambered in .22LR. I bought a Smith and Wesson M&P15-22. When I brought it home my wife appropriated it ("It's so light" "I love the adjustable buttstock for my short arms". and so on. She kept on changing things up the way she wanted. ) We ended up with his and hers. They are a fun shoot. I decided to get it's "baby brother", the M&P15-22...










I really like it for carrying around the farm. I can sling it over my back where it's out of the way but handy. We have coyotes in the area. The 25 round magazine makes up for .22LR vs a heavier caliber pistol. I wish fore grips on pistols were legal. I'm a lefty and the hot brass ejects right into my forearm. With a fore grip on the quad rail, the brass ejects over my arm. you can also mount a laser and light on the sides of the quad rail. I got it as a fun shoot but I want it for the above reason.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Montanarchist said:


> I've been an activist for years and I know the Goons hate me but...
> 
> Even though I don't have a brace for this do you think it's a 3AM Alphabet Boys death sentence?
> 
> ...


No. You’re GTG. The proposed new rules and the 4999 scoring sheet only applies to pistols with a brace attachment installed. There’s no indication at this point that the ATF intends to turn pistols like yours magically in to rifles of the short-barreled variety.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Big_Al said:


> I've always felt that these were pointless weapons, a solution looking in vain for a purpose.
> But hey, that's just me.


What’s pointless are the silly, misinformed laws that brought these pistols into existence.

A short barreled weapon with more velocity and energy than most common pistols makes a lot of sense for a home-defense platform.

The incredibly popular .300 Black Out performs exceedingly well in a short (6-10”) barrel, especially when heavy, sub-sonic bullets are fired through a silencer.

In most places, a loaded rifle can’t be carried in a car, but a pistol can. It just so happens that the shorter barrels (<16”) are more practical for vehicle carry than their rifle counterparts. A pistol carried as such in a car often meets the criteria to qualify on a concealed carry license.

Not to mention that, those of us who have taken the time and expense to register short-barred rifles in our name are required to file annual paperwork with the ATF for notification and approval to take our legally registered short barreled rifles to states other than the one in which we reside. So, even folks that have legal SBRs still have good reason to keep at least one AR pistol.

In sum, the silly laws on the books not only drove us to build AR-platform pistols, they’ve given us lot and lots of good reasons to keep them.


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

JRHill02 said:


> To me these are special purpose close quarters guns. Why would I want one of those? Why would you?


A grizzly in my storage shed or chicken coop? But really it's great because even without the Joe Biden AR-15 Express Ammo, this thing is so scary that when I go hunting all I have to do is hold it over my head and spin around, and just like that, without firing a shot, all the deer and elk have a heart attack from sheer terror.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

These are our 3AM break-in perp "pistols"....


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## 67drake (May 6, 2020)

Cabin Fever said:


> These are our 3AM break-in perp "pistols"....
> View attachment 116500
> 
> View attachment 116502


Ah, his and hers. If I send this picture to my wife, I know what my Christmas present will be this year.


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

Cabin Fever said:


> These are our 3AM break-in perp "pistols"....
> View attachment 116500
> 
> View attachment 116502


When I had neighbors close by, a long time ago, I also kept a 12ga for defense since I didn't want a bullet passing though walls into another home. I still keep a rifled-barrel Remington 1100 with extended mag tube and slugs by the door for any rabid grizzlies. For sheer power (at a fraction of the weight of a 50BMG) you can't beat them for close range.

Edit for typo


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Montanarchist said:


> When I had neighbors close by, a long time ago, I also kept a 12ga for defense since I didn't want a bullet passing though walls into another home. I still keep a rifled-barrel Remington 1000 with extended mag tube and slugs by the door for any rabid grizzlies. For sheer power (at a fraction of the weight of a 50BMG) you can't beat them for close range.


Did you mention a 50BMG?


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

@Cabin Fever
Belt fed! My pants are tight!

Edit to change pic to the video link:


__
http://instagr.am/p/CCfLRNRHo7J/


Here are mine. The Barrett is currently stuck in probate but I expect to be getting it back soon


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Cabin Fever said:


> Did you mention a 50BMG?
> View attachment 116504


Nice, but that would mess up a squirrel


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Cabin Fever said:


> Did you mention a 50BMG?
> View attachment 116504


Is that demilled, semi-auto or an MG?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Here’s the one I’ve got on the books right now. Still belongs to Barrett. 19” barrel and it does have a can, but this test had to be naked.


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

I love that everyone is pulling out the big guns.


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

Montanarchist said:


> I've been an activist for years and I know the Goons hate me but...
> 
> Even though I don't have a brace for this do you think it's a 3AM Alphabet Boys death sentence?
> 
> ...





GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Here’s the one I’ve got on the books right now. Still belongs to Barrett. 19” barrel and it does have a can, but this test had to be naked.
> View attachment 116516


Big waste of money. Maybe good for the spray and play but worth nothing for defense.


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

@oldasrocks are you speaking from personal experience or is this one of those feely things?


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

Contrary to some's opinion. Here's proof that it's a damn good home defense gun. 30 shots, 30 feet, 20 seconds, offhand. 4.5" group with no fliers. These would all be headshots from anywhere in my house. 



Don't make fun of my poverty target.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

If we're talking self defense, I'll go with a Saiga 20 gauge with a 20 round drum magazine. There's a reason they call them street sweepers. Less kick than a 12 gauge and if you need more than 20 shotgun rounds you are in trouble regardless. I don't own one but had the pleasure of shooting with a friend's at the short range on our property.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Big_Al said:


> I've always felt that these were pointless weapons, a solution looking in vain for a purpose.
> But hey, that's just me.


I have a AR Pistol with a 10" barrel in 300 Blackout, and it fits in a backpack, so it's covered by my concealed permit. You go stand at one hundred yards, and start shooting at me with a pistol, and I will return fire. Let me know if you think it's pointless. 

I can think of a few places where carrying a rifle slung over your shoulder, will get you shot dead, no questions asked. One of these in a backpack, might come in real handy.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

oldasrocks said:


> Big waste of money. Maybe good for the spray and play but worth nothing for defense.


Sure, maybe not a self-defense weapon, but I’ve never heard the phrase “spray and pray” attached to a .50 caliber sniper rifle.

…it’s kinda exactly the opposite of “spray and pray”.


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

Montanarchist said:


> @oldasrocks are you speaking from personal experience or is this one of those feely things?


I've shot one and not impressed. Good way to waste ammo, spray and hope. The 223 round can penetrate walls etc and possibly harm someone blocks away. I prefer a shotgun for close work.. A KSG is a lot better option for a house gun. Even a Circuit Judge in .410 is a better house gun. Light weight and one handed shooting if necessary.

Personally I keep a 45 holstered on my bed frame.


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Sure, maybe not a self-defense weapon, but I’ve never heard the phrase “spray and pray” attached to a .50 caliber sniper rifle.
> 
> …it’s kinda exactly the opposite of “spray and pray”.


Sniper rifle is a little unhandy for a house gun.


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

oldasrocks said:


> Sniper rifle is a little unhandy for a house gun.


Different strokes for different folks. Maybe you have limitations because of where you live but I'm the only person who lives in this valley and I like my ARs even if the politicians think they're scary. They'd probably shet themselves of they knew I like hollow points in my house gun mags.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

muleskinner2 said:


> I have a AR Pistol with a 10" barrel in 300 Blackout, and it fits in a backpack, so it's covered by my concealed permit. You go stand at one hundred yards, and start shooting at me with a pistol, and I will return fire. Let me know if you think it's pointless.
> 
> I can think of a few places where carrying a rifle slung over your shoulder, will get you shot dead, no questions asked. One of these in a backpack, might come in real handy.


my 10.5 AR likes to ring steel at 200 yards 
the alphabet agencies have written a number of papers why they neeeeeeeeeed SBR they call them PDW personal defensive weapon.

there are several classes of PDW and these AR pistols , braced ar-pistols and AR-SBR fit into a reduced size rifle platform 

they are quite handy to wear getting in and out of vehicles and have a quite effective range to about 200 yards they start too show the loss of velocity from the shorter barrel by 300 but you still don't want to be hit.

also the variety of Silly laws that make zero sense 

as Muleskinner points out one very good reason for the AR-pistol is you can shoot to 200 yards , your CCL/CCW covers it and you can keep it loaded in the truck.

In WI we have to unload long guns in vehicles , pistols may stay loaded


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

oldasrocks said:


> I've shot one and not impressed. Good way to waste ammo, spray and hope. The 223 round can penetrate walls etc and possibly harm someone blocks away. I prefer a shotgun for close work.. A KSG is a lot better option for a house gun. Even a Circuit Judge in .410 is a better house gun. Light weight and one handed shooting if necessary.
> 
> Personally I keep a 45 holstered on my bed frame.


the right ammunition in any gun can help limit over penetration 

not sure what is spray and pray about it , in the stages I have shot with my 10.5 I run all Alpha most of the time.

hitting your target is the best way to limit over penetration

Hornady TAP Urban is also a way to limit over penetration. 

you may not get over penetration with your 410 circuit judge , but are you going to get enough penetration to make a stop anything effective enough to work is effective enough to over penetrate some also.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> also the variety of Silly laws that make zero sense
> 
> as Muleskinner points out one very good reason for the AR-pistol is you can shoot to 200 yards , your CCL/CCW covers it and you can keep it loaded in the truck.
> 
> In WI we have to unload long guns in vehicles , pistols may stay loaded


In Ohio no CCL is required.


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## JOAT (10 mo ago)

oldasrocks said:


> The 223 round can penetrate walls etc and possibly harm someone blocks away. I prefer a shotgun for close work..


12g slug will travel through walls and easily harm someone out to as much as 4 city blocks away.
00 Buckshot will also travel through many types of walls and it can also easily harm someone out to about 8 city blocks away. 
By comparison, the 223 has a range of around 44 city blocks. So yes, it does have the ability to go a lot further. But with something like V-Max/TAP ammo, it will not even exit the body. Whereas that 12g slug will take out the guy behind the guy and then kill the cow out in the yard.
The thought that the shotgun is somehow "safer" than the 223 isn't a very well composed argument to me. The fact that you can pin-point target with an AR is a huge advantage over the shotgun. The shotgun has the accuracy of artillery by comparison. So, you got the bad guy with 5 pellets; bummer deal on the other 4 that missed due to the inverse law of squares, went through your front window, across the street, and into the neighbor's kid's bedroom. 

(BTW... I keep handguns, shotguns, and ARs around for self-defense. I'm not prejudice. They each have their place.)


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

oldasrocks said:


> Sniper rifle is a little unhandy for a house gun.


Who said anything about it being a “house gun”?

You said, in response to a pic of a precision .50 , that it was only good for “spray and pray”, and then you pivot to how it’s not a good “house gun”?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Mike in Ohio said:


> In Ohio no CCL is required.


Doesn’t mean you can carry a loaded rifle in your car or concealed on your person.

….hence, the AR pistol.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Mike in Ohio said:


> In Ohio no CCL is required.


we have open carry and a very simple easy to get CCL , we haven't been able to do constitutional carry yet 

we have always had open carry and we have open carry of handguns in vehicles


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> the right ammunition in any gun can help limit over penetration
> 
> not sure what is spray and pray about it , in the stages I have shot with my 10.5 I run all Alpha most of the time.
> 
> ...


.410 is 41 caliber. Inhouse firing would be pretty close range and not much spread. Very few people react calm if met with a stressful situation like a break in. Compare that to SUS (Shooting Under Stress.) competition shoot.. Talk earlier was having a 30 round mag. How many in here could put 30 rounds in a close range target in a few seconds? I've hit 8 head shots out of 10 in 10 seconds at 25 yards with a 45. but not under stress conditions.
I might have a hard time explaining how I dropped a bad guy 600 yards out that was breaking into the house at the same time.
I think the original question-- Is the pistol mentioned good for inhouse protection? I'll stand by my answer of a KSG or a Circuit Judge.

I have rifles that can reach out a lot ways also but I'm not going to get out a .308 for a house gun. My wife can shoot the Circuit Judge without hesitation. I wouldn't want to get hit 10 ft away with a .410 or even a .22LR although the .22LR would probably not stop someone drugged up.
I know there are a lot of skilled shooters in here but how many could be woken from a dead slfeep, grab a weapon and hit a target coming at them in the dark? Ever see the flames coming out the barrel of a KSG? First shot to mark target and 2nd to take him down. Shot and cooked medium rare if within 6 ft.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Those who say I don't see the purpose in civilians owning that gun....pfft. Shall not be infringed. 

For others asking what purpose does it serve, I disagree that you have thought it through. You cannot possibly think through what tactical situation every one else may face.

There are many uses around here for a pistol brace. I refuse to call it a SBR. This time of year, in my neck of the woods, it is legal for reprobates to release whatever dogs they have or have taken to chase deer off my property to where they can take pot shots legally on neighboring properties. The pistol at my side does me little good at these random dogs harassing my livestock or pets. I can sling around a pistol that is braced and as @GREENCOUNTYPETE stated put a shot where it needs to be put.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

oldasrocks said:


> .410 is 41 caliber. Inhouse firing would be pretty close range and not much spread. Very few people react calm if met with a stressful situation like a break in. Compare that to SUS (Shooting Under Stress.) competition shoot.. Talk earlier was having a 30 round mag. How many in here could put 30 rounds in a close range target in a few seconds? I've hit 8 head shots out of 10 in 10 seconds at 25 yards with a 45. but not under stress conditions.
> I might have a hard time explaining how I dropped a bad guy 600 yards out that was breaking into the house at the same time.
> I think the original question-- Is the pistol mentioned good for inhouse protection? I'll stand by my answer of a KSG or a Circuit Judge.
> 
> ...


that gets the question are you slinging shot with that rifled barrel on the circuit judge or are you sending slugs

shot from the Judge , I admit that I have not seen it from the circuit judge , from the judge pistol it does spread quickly because it is a rifle barrel , the judge pistol only gets a fraction of the velocity of 410 loads because they are meant to be fired in a 18 inch barrel not a short barrel.

the 410 barrel is actually 45cal

not wanting to get shot by and stopping are not the same.

the circuit judge is low capacity also.

Imagine a gun with even shorter length similar weight , easy to manipulate , easy to mount optic and light on , easy to mount a sling that can stay rubber banded out of the way till you need it , and that easily carried 6X more ammunition and let you put those rounds on target very fast.
that is what we are saying

I am not anti shotgun you will find one right next to my AR, I am against bird shot because I have seen it be ineffective at distances where the shot column isn't traveling as one mass basically still in the wad.

we had a raccoon that we chased out of the corn crib I had a 20ga loaded with shot I was shooting that racoon and hitting it right in the middle , I was watching the shot hit , and the racoon nock over and get right back up the pattern was around 6 inches I wasn't very far away maybe 20-25 feet round 1,2,3 it got right back up round 4 was a slug and that stopped it. if a large raccoon at 15-20 pounds isn't stopped by shot , will a drugged out person out of their mind?

please pattern the circuit judge with the loads you keep with it and if at all possible try shooting a possum or raccoon at that distance it may prove you choose the perfect load or it may make you rethink the load you choose.

I have a co-worker who was shot with a load of bird shot from an across the room distance by a former room mate that went crazy , this coworker is in his 50s and was shot when still in college 30+ years ago , they had to re-route his stomach for a bit but he walked out of the apartment and got help.
you wouldn't' know if he didn't tell you and kept his shirt on.

relying on the flame coming out of your muzzle isn't a good strategy , a mounted firearms light is a much better option , and you can just shut it off and no one got hurt if it is someone you don't need to shoot.

on any of these home defense guns no matter what it is , it should really have a light and a sling


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## HomeCreek (Dec 30, 2021)

I have a 8 inch barreled ar in 300 blackout with a shockwave blade type "brace" on it that can be shouldered. Its super short. The 300 meets its velocity in such a barrel. Ive even taken deer with it under 150 yards. Overall out of the walk in closet of firearms I have it is my favorite. Closely followed by the 450 side charger ar I have. I build custom AR platform rifles for myself and others. Some I laser engrave the lowers. Overall I think for the average person a short barrel 12 or 20 pump with number number 1 buck is hard to beat. My wife can use any firearm on the place. But if Im not around thats her go to. I keep a pistol by the bed and it can be used to get me to the 12 if needed. If I am confronting someone outside I take the 12. And even though I live in a nice area meth heads have learned to travel and break in or steal out in the rural areas due to lack of eyes and leo. And in my work I am home most of the day and I have caught 3 people in 5 years and the 12 was a great motivator to comply until the law gets here. Usually racking that slide brings anyone to a screeching halt even if they didnt see you sneaking up


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## HomeCreek (Dec 30, 2021)

Most of the public are unaware that AR platforms can be had in a ton of varying calibers. I do the majority of my hunting with a 450 side charger. Followed closely with a 6.5 22 inch barrel AR for the longer shots. I also have them in 458 50 308 5.56/223 243 and 12 gauge(ar12)

Those concerned with over penetration and such need to know there are a myriad of bullet types. Some are more suited to home defense than others. FMJ not so much. BUt soft points and frangibles etc are available. Most would be shocked to know the much touted shotgun will make a fist sized hole through 2 walls as the shot in it is all tight grouped until it has room to spread. And if you cut the barrel short enough to get major spread under 50 feet you are likely going to be violating the law and looking at a couple yrs being traded for a pack of PallMall menthols


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Doesn’t mean you can carry a loaded rifle in your car or concealed on your person.
> 
> ….hence, the AR pistol.


True. Just responding to folks writing about having to get a CCL. The law in Ohio eliminated this in June of this year.


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## karlsout067 (6 mo ago)

oldasrocks said:


> Big waste of money. Maybe good for the spray and play but worth nothing for defense.


What does it matter how someone else spends/"waste" their money? I know people that think my ice fishing gear is a waste because they don't ice fish. A good friend of mine thinks the 9mm is a waste because the only worthy pistol round is a 45. We all have our likes and hobbies. Though I've never used one, I don't believe they are worthless in home defense.


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## aaron.d.hess (5 mo ago)

My biggest question is why you think the 'alphabet boys' will be performing home invasions? lol


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

It boils down to what you need to stop and how you want to stop it. Everyone should have at least one gun of every caliber handy. Shooting an intruder 20 ft down the hallway is a lot different than taking out a varmint trying to eat the chickens or a deer in the next county over.
So start buying more weapons , go home and practice with each one.


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

aaron.d.hess said:


> My biggest question is why you think the 'alphabet boys' will be performing home invasions? lol


You should ask these guys. 










I loved carrying my Judge for bears up here and my son still does. With shot though it donut-ed the pattern so much that you could completely miss a bird at 20yds with #6 I would hold six inches to the side to make a hit more likely


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

aaron.d.hess said:


> My biggest question is why you think the 'alphabet boys' will be performing home invasions? lol


lots of people go there when there is some new absolutely stupid re-interpretations that makes something that was legal the day you bought it and for the last decade and makes it illegal and does so with no legislations, just and administraoive rules change 

that is why gun monkey looked at his picture ran the calculations on the stupid ATF worksheet and came back , that he should get no visits for that specific config


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

oldasrocks said:


> …Is the pistol mentioned good for inhouse protection? I'll stand by my answer of a KSG…
> …Ever see the flames coming out the barrel of a KSG? First shot to mark target and 2nd to take him down…


Where do you come up with this crap? What does that even mean? First shot to mark the target?

First you admonish us that a precision .50 caliber is only good for “spray and pray”, and then that it is not a good home-defense gun (of which exactly zero people claimed), and now you’re praising a particular gun that is under-barreled for its powder charge, and how it throws a big fire ball allowing you to “mark your target”?

You sound like some kid who’s only ever shot a gun in Call of Duty, trying to school up some adults on tactical/defensive shooting.


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

aaron.d.hess said:


> My biggest question is why you think the 'alphabet boys' will be performing home invasions? lol


Or Randy Weaver, or the kids who survived Janet Reno's massacre in Waco, or countless others.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> …that is why gun monkey looked at his picture ran the calculations on the stupid ATF worksheet and came back , that he should get no visits for that specific config


Here’s the worksheet if anyone wants to double check their pistols.


https://www.atf.gov/file/154866/download



Note that none of this is set in stone yet. Given the progress of the process, it’s very likely to be what we’re held to in the end, but don’t go cutting anything up just yet.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

If you really want to House-Gun like a pro, @oldasrocks , you need to take that Circuit Judge to a gunsmith and have them fit the top-strap with a cantilever drop-down pic rail so you can mount a flip-out heartbeat sensor to it.

You know, like the pro (gamers) do.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

oldasrocks said:


> It boils down to what you need to stop and how you want to stop it. Everyone should have at least one gun of every caliber handy. Shooting an intruder 20 ft down the hallway is a lot different than taking out a varmint trying to eat the chickens or a deer in the next county over.
> So start buying more weapons , go home and practice with each one.


A few guns that you get very familiar with in good repair with available and stored parts, with an available supply of ammo and a stock of your own stored ammo.

410 is very hard stuff to get right now , if you have a good store of it and the 410 is your go to gun for everything and you have all the muscled memory built great , being very familiar with your tool is better than a tool you don't know how to use.

if you have had a pump gun in your hand since you were a boy then a pump gun is a good way to go , if you have all your training time on a AR it makes a lot of sense.


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

@GunMonkeyIntl A lawyer, but not a firearm lawyer, suggested splitting the upper and lowers and storing them, locked up, separately. What's your opinion on this? They also suggested staying out of the spotlight, but having decades of activism history I doubt keeping my head down now will help.


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## JOAT (10 mo ago)

Montanarchist said:


> @GunMonkeyIntl A lawyer, but not a firearm lawyer, suggested splitting the upper and lowers and storing them, locked up, separately. What's your opinion on this? They also suggested staying out of the spotlight, but having decades of activism history I doubt keeping my head down now will help.


ATF has a long history of considering the presence of two parts in the house that, when put together, would create an "illegal" arm, to be the illegal arm even if the parts are not assembled. A classic example is the presence of a full-auto M-16 sear in a location where there's an AR-15 receiver. Even if they are not put together to create a "machine gun", the mere presence of the sear means that (with some work) one could build a "machine gun", and therefore the part must be considered as the whole of the gun. It's an asinine take on the regulations. But the ATF is really good at breaking down doors and shooting dogs over "potential gun parts". 

(If peeps took the same stance over the existence of "potential humans" in the womb, abortion would already be classified as murder. Ironic.)


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

The last option is taking the cutting torch to the barrel, I guess. What a F-ed up world we live in.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Montanarchist said:


> @GunMonkeyIntl A lawyer, but not a firearm lawyer, suggested splitting the upper and lowers and storing them, locked up, separately. What's your opinion on this? They also suggested staying out of the spotlight, but having decades of activism history I doubt keeping my head down now will help.


The legal term @JOAT is hunting for is “constructive intent”. The ATF’s argument, in an instance like you’ve described, is that you’ve affirmed your intent to possess an illegal firearm by collecting (“constructing”) the necessary components to do so, for which there are no other reasonable legal usage.

Constructive intent should have no place in our justice system but, unfortunately, it does. That said, constructive intent is not a simple, binary matter. Having an M16 autosear is fairly easy to prove, since there is no alternative legal usage for it. Ot the other hand, if you have a registered M16, you could well argue that having four of five autosears constitutes “spare parts”- likewise, explaining away a pile of 100 of them would be much more difficult.

With the AR pistol thing, I have long argued that everyone who keeps one or more of them, and doesn’t want to face the risk of legal jeopardy, or having to destroy their property, in the event that the ATF decides to bend logic on them, the solution is to keep at least one registered SBR. When done as a Form 1 (meaning, you “make” the SBR), it costs $200 for the stamp, $20-30 for the engraving, and about 30 days.

Even if you have no interest in using an SBR, lowers are cheap, and it becomes a $200 insurance policy for the short uppers you’ve collected for use as pistols. The ATF could ban AR pistols tomorrow (not what they’re doing with this current ruling… but still), and you could have a dozen short uppers laying around that are defensibly intended for use on that stripped SBR lower in the back of your safe… when you finally get around to putting the parts back in it after you removed them for another build.


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> The legal term @JOAT is hunting for is “constructive intent”. The ATF’s argument, in an instance like you’ve described, is that you’ve affirmed your intent to possess an illegal firearm by collecting (“constructing”) the necessary components to do so, for which there are no other reasonable legal usage.
> 
> Constructive intent should have no place in our justice system but, unfortunately, it does. That said, constructive intent is not a simple, binary matter. Having an M16 autosear is fairly easy to prove, since there is no alternative legal usage for it. Ot the other hand, if you have a registered M16, you could well argue that having four of five autosears constitutes “spare parts”- likewise, explaining away a pile of 100 of them would be much more difficult.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the information. When do you think this new rule will go into force? Damn tyrants.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> The legal term @JOAT is hunting for is “constructive intent”. The ATF’s argument, in an instance like you’ve described, is that you’ve affirmed your intent to possess an illegal firearm by collecting (“constructing”) the necessary components to do so, for which there are no other reasonable legal usage.
> 
> Constructive intent should have no place in our justice system but, unfortunately, it does. That said, constructive intent is not a simple, binary matter. Having an M16 autosear is fairly easy to prove, since there is no alternative legal usage for it. Ot the other hand, if you have a registered M16, you could well argue that having four of five autosears constitutes “spare parts”- likewise, explaining away a pile of 100 of them would be much more difficult.
> 
> ...


on looking into the SBR route , a registered SBR lower cannot be registered as multi call and your configuration is bound to the lenght and caliber it was when you form1

so is it the case that while not married to one upper it is marred to one caliber and one barrel length until a form to change it is filed , so are you not right back to constructive intent if you have 5 uppers of varying and 1 lower?

by that standard anyone getting ready to send in a form 1 is showing constructive intent 

there is also the part where they seem to be requiring a picture of the AR pistol being form 1 so much like the form 1 suppressor your looking at a legal quagmire.







Montanarchist said:


> The last option is taking the cutting torch to the barrel, I guess. What a F-ed up world we live in.


nope you keep breaking the law by cutting the barrel shorter , now if you remove the barrel but then destroy the barrel you would have parts to build a rifle sitting on your self.

this whole thing is a real quagmire

and more EFFED UP this is not your congresman nor senator voting for this so you have someone to complaint to and vote out of office.


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

This rule is clearly a violation of the Second Amendment, but also Art. 1 sec. 10 "*No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed*.". How has this agency gone so rogue?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> on looking into the SBR route , a registered SBR lower cannot be registered as multi call and your configuration is bound to the lenght and caliber it was when you form1
> 
> so is it the case that while not married to one upper it is marred to one caliber and one barrel length until a form to change it is filed , so are you not right back to constructive intent if you have 5 uppers of varying and 1 lower?


You’re correct that an SBR has to be Form1/Form4’d in a given caliber, barrel length, and overall length, but there’s nothing stating that it has to stay that way. The information you’re providing is the same as a manufacturer provides when they record the manufacture of a Title 1 firearm. When you fill out your Form 1, you’re recording the configuration of a Title 2 firearm. And, just how a 24” .308 bolt action (Title 1) can later become a 20” .243 and remain a Title 1, a 10” 5.56 can later become a 7” .300 BO and remain a Title 2.

An interesting thing about a Title 2 SBR or SBS, is that it can revert to Title 1 (even temporarily) by configuring it as such. If you have an 14” 870 SBS (with a full length stock), and you put a 18” barrel on it, it is no longer an SBS for travel and trade purposes. You’re not even required to inform the ATF if you stick an 18” barrel on it, sell it, and throw your stamp in the trash. As long as you have the stamp, though, you can put the 14” on it at any time, and it’s Title 2 again.

So, no, short answer is that you can have a single AR-platform SBR, registered in whatever configuration you “made it” in, and later configure it to a semi-auto of any length and caliber you like. 



GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> by that standard anyone getting ready to send in a form 1 is showing constructive intent


No. You’re not supposed to cut the barrel (or source the shorter barrel) until you have your stamp in hand. Before the AR pistol thing became a thing, most AR MFGs wouldn’t sell you a short barrel until you could fax them a copy of your stamp. If you had the parts before receiving your stamp, that could be called constructive intent.

The “right” process was to get your lower (or complete rifle), do your Form 1, receive your stamp, get the lower engraved, and THEN buy your short upper.

There is some talk that the ATF is going to run a constructive intent entrapment scheme on the folks looking to participate in the braced-pistol “amnesty”, though, just like they were doing with the Form 1 solvent trap silencer makers.

In order to complete a current Form 1 silencer, you’re required to provide a photograph of the parts you intend to use and, in the case of the pistol brace/SBR amnesty, you’re going to be required to provide photographic proof that you own a braced pistol (ostensibly to avoid people claiming one… or 12… for the free stamp). Then, depending on the timing, if the ATF has deemed them to be SBRs before you can get your stamp, they have photographic proof of you illegally possessing an SBR. The process could get very, very ugly.

Another good reason to have you’re legally SBR’d lower in the safe sooner than later. If the ATF does play that constructive intent game, all you have to do is dismantle the pistol lower, build it into a rifle, and your old pistol upper just became a spare for your SBR.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Montanarchist said:


> This rule is clearly a violation of the Second Amendment, but also Art. 1 sec. 10 "*No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed*.". How has this agency gone so rogue?


That’s not what ex post facto means. EPF means that they can’t pass a law against some transient action and prosecute you for having done it in the past. If murder is legal today, you murder your neighbor, and they pass a law against murder tomorrow, they can’t prosecute you for the one you committed yesterday.

In this case, they will make something that was not contraband into contraband, and you can get rid of it without legal peril for having owned it before it was illegal (ex post facto), but they can prosecute you for continuing to own it after it was banned.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Montanarchist said:


> Thanks for the information. When do you think this new rule will go into force? Damn tyrants.


It’s supposed to be any day now, but I do expect that there will be some federal court interdiction, at least temporarily. The Bruen case from last summer makes it kinda difficult to enforce given the “common use” of braced pistols, but the courts also know that a ruling against an ATF rule here would put the whole NFA into question- and they probably don’t want to tackle that, no matter how much they SHOULD. 

Between Bruen and the EPA rulings, the ATF may be rethinking the whole thing and end up doing nothing.


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

Meet my new 20" barreled pistol, and a whole new level of loathing for the pet killers.

I wanted one of these for years and it was a gift from a girlfriend I lost to a stroke a few years ago.


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

I'm accepting donations in the form of a gas tube and forearm in its memory.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I was thinking I best take my pictures now for the form 1 amnesty that way what I had I had but it was disassembled and move the short barrels to a place with no receivers for a while.

I have year old+ pictures already now that I think about it


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Montanarchist said:


> Meet my new 20" barreled pistol, and a whole new level of loathing for the pet killers.
> 
> I wanted one of these for years and it was a gift from a girlfriend I lost to a stroke a few years ago.
> 
> View attachment 116567


Wait… did you really just cut up your pistol barrel? If so, why?

It looks like you still have a pistol buffer tube on that thing.

If you’re really wanting to stay on the legal side of things, don’t ever put a stock on that lower unless/until you’re 100% ready to leave it as a rifle forever, or register it as an SBR. You can legally make a rifle out of a pistol, but you can’t make a pistol out of a rifle. Once it’s had a stock on it, even if just for a second, it can only be a rifle/SBR.


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Wait… did you really just cut up your pistol barrel? If so, why?
> 
> It looks like you still have a pistol buffer tube on that thing.
> 
> If you’re really wanting to stay on the legal side of things, don’t ever put a stock on that lower unless/until you’re 100% ready to leave it as a rifle forever, or register it as an SBR. You can legally make a rifle out of a pistol, but you can’t make a pistol out of a rifle. Once it’s had a stock on it, even if just for a second, it can only be a rifle/SBR.


Thanks, there are so many ways they try to get you. It's disgusting. I figured I'd leave it as a 20" or 14.5" barreled pistol until I'm sure they won't kill me and my cat for have a piece of steel that's too short. That should be safe, right?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Montanarchist said:


> Thanks, there are so many ways they try to get you. It's disgusting. I figured I'd leave it as a 20" or 14.5" barreled pistol until I'm sure they won't kill me and my cat for have a piece of steel that's too short. That should be safe, right?


Wow.

You didn’t have a brace on yours so, as far as I can tell, your pistol wasn’t even at peril of this forthcoming ruling…

At the end of the day, the only part that’s immutable is the legislative part of it. All this talk of pistol braces is just regulation because the legislation doesn’t say anything about it. If the ATF decides that things classified in the US legal code as pistols magically become rifles instead, then it wouldn’t matter if your barrel was 6”, 10”, 14.5”, or 15.99999”. Anything shorter than 16” would be illegal.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I was thinking I best take my pictures now for the form 1 amnesty that way what I had I had but it was disassembled and move the short barrels to a place with no receivers for a while.
> 
> I have year old+ pictures already now that I think about it


That’s actually not a bad idea. Get a time-stamped picture of your braced pistol today, so the burden would be on them that to prove that it was still configured that way when their regulation went into effect.

If you smell the entrapment coming, you could always dismantle it and ditch the upper… or get an SBR lower and hand the ATF a copy of your stamp if they ever come sniffing around for that old pistol.


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Wow.
> 
> You didn’t have a brace on yours so, as far as I can tell, your pistol wasn’t even at peril of this forthcoming ruling…
> 
> At the end of the day, the only part that’s immutable is the legislative part of it. All this talk of pistol braces is just regulation because the legislation doesn’t say anything about it. If the ATF decides that things classified in the US legal code as pistols magically become rifles instead, then it wouldn’t matter if your barrel was 6”, 10”, 14.5”, or 15.99999”. Anything shorter than 16” would be illegal.


Good thing it's 20" then. 

Decades of outspoken activism has taught me to be as legal as humanly possible. Randy weaver should've as well.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Montanarchist said:


> Good thing it's 20" then.
> 
> Decades of outspoken activism has taught me to be as legal as humanly possible. Randy weaver should've as well.


Oh. 
Ok.


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## Big_Al (Dec 21, 2011)

Cabin Fever said:


> Did you mention a 50BMG?
> View attachment 116504


Before Ronald Reagan signed the Gun Control Act of 1986, these were actually affordable.
A friend of mine had an M2, plus a German MG42, both full auto.
The MG42 had a cyclic rate high enough to keep a fellow broke. 1,200 rounds per minute.


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## Big_Al (Dec 21, 2011)

muleskinner2 said:


> I have a AR Pistol with a 10" barrel in 300 Blackout, and it fits in a backpack, so it's covered by my concealed permit. You go stand at one hundred yards, and start shooting at me with a pistol, and I will return fire. Let me know if you think it's pointless.
> 
> I can think of a few places where carrying a rifle slung over your shoulder, will get you shot dead, no questions asked. One of these in a backpack, might come in real handy.


How often in your life do you think you will be in a gun fight at 100 yards?
I tend to live in the here and now, myself.
I haven't been in a gun fight for over 52 years now.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Big_Al said:


> How often in your life do you think you will be in a gun fight at 100 yards?
> I tend to live in the here and now, myself.
> I haven't been in a gun fight for over 52 years now.


No one knows how many gun fights they will be in and on what terms. Well, unless you have the unique advantage of choosing.....you planning on choosing to engage in your next one?


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## Big_Al (Dec 21, 2011)

Hiro said:


> No one knows how many gun fights they will be in and on what terms. Well, unless you have the unique advantage of choosing.....you planning on choosing to engage in your next one?


Unless you live in a big city, and are a member of a drug gang, your chances are pretty slim of being in a gun battle.
Let alone one at 100 yards as the poster commented.
I've made it to 74 years of age and have never been in a gunfight in America. And I've lived in some very populated areas. 

Who do you hang around with?


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Big_Al said:


> Unless you live in a big city, and are a member of a drug gang, your chances are pretty slim of being in a gun battle.
> Let alone one at 100 yards as the poster commented.
> I've made it to 74 years of age and have never been in a gunfight in America. And I've lived in some very populated areas.
> 
> Who do you hang around with?


I don't hang around with anyone that is unkind by choice. But, these last few years I have had my share of meth/heroin zombies to deal with which is unpleasant. Their dealers that deliver are more complicated. 

I live in the middle of nowhere. But, I don't live in a bubble. Must be nice.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

while an awful lot of self defense shootings will take place at across the room distances or less we have however definitely seen street to front door happen.

set up some stages where you run 5-30 yards and run it for speed and accuracy with your chosen tools , have some friends run it , see what you think.

having the muscle memory built doing it well , reloading , moving , working cover/concealment.

just imagine it is 2020 ,it is night 5 of mostly peaceful protests and you called 911 and they said we will send some one out in the morning if we have anyone left the looters have started going door to door .

for a good stage suggestion there need to be minimum 6 targets 3 partially obscured by cover each target needs 2 rounds C zone or better to neutralize. Not more than 2 targets may be shot from any one place without moving. to new cover/concealment

may we all train like were going to be in a shooting and never have to fire a round in self defense.


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## Big_Al (Dec 21, 2011)

Hiro said:


> I don't hang around with anyone that is unkind by choice. But, these last few years I have had my share of meth/heroin zombies to deal with which is unpleasant. Their dealers that deliver are more complicated.
> 
> I live in the middle of nowhere. But, I don't live in a bubble. Must be nice.


Actually, we live on a farm.
And i prefer .30 caliber rifles over pistols.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Big_Al said:


> Actually, we live on a farm.
> And i prefer .30 caliber rifles over pistols.


The non-sequiturs from bots are funny.


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## Big_Al (Dec 21, 2011)

Hiro said:


> The non-sequiturs from bots are funny.


Well, bless your heart.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Big_Al said:


> Actually, we live on a farm.
> And i prefer .30 caliber rifles over pistols.


but if you had a rifle in a smaller package that was on par with a 30-30 but 8 inches shorter, that is the draw , smaller and easier to carry, easier to keep handy


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

I'm going to Mars soon, funk all you all. Humans suck.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Montanarchist said:


> I'm going to Mars soon, funk all you all. Humans suck.


enjoy your trip , maybe drinking and posting isn't the best idea , I know drinking and gun broker can be a dangerous thing for the bank account.

good thing I am still cheap when I am drunk even if it isn't as cheap as when I am sober.

I know a guy who has spent many a thousand drunk bidding on gun broker , good thing he has a very good paying job.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Big_Al said:


> How often in your life do you think you will be in a gun fight at 100 yards?
> I tend to live in the here and now, myself.
> I haven't been in a gun fight for over 52 years now.


The last one was at 25 paces, and it was 12 years ago. I hope I don't have to do it again, but in the here and now I know that it could happen. The AR pistol with an arm brace fills a niche, light, handy, and fast with a thirty round magazine. With a red dot sight and a light, it makes a good close quarters fighting arm. It is accurate enough for close in hunting in a pinch. The .223 has less chance of over penetration in a house than a 9 mm. And with modern frangible ammunition drywall will stop it. 

Mine is a 300 Blackout with 220gr subsonic ammo, and a suppressor. This gives me thirty rounds of quiet punch at close quarters, that will reach out if necessary. I don't live in an apartment, or a house in the suburbs so I don't worry about over penetration. 

Outside in open country I would prefer a rifle, inside at close quarters a pistol with a heavy bullet, and a double stack magazine. Although a good revolver with my hand loads, has given good service in the past.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

My gosh this thread is worn out. Who shoots what and where or could and with what weaponry and round/cal?

Who gives a flip unless you are dealing with the same stuff and conditions? Mine is certainly not bigger than yours but I can still wreck a day. I know my land and you don't. I have sensors and you don't know where hey are.

On and on.


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

Big_Al said:


> Before Ronald Reagan signed the Gun Control Act of 1986, these were actually affordable.
> A friend of mine had an M2, plus a German MG42, both full auto.
> The MG42 had a cyclic rate high enough to keep a fellow broke. 1,200 rounds per minute.


When I was shooting ,22s, as a preteen, I remember a guy picking up his brand new M60 before they changed the laws.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Did someone mention spray and pray?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Cabin Fever said:


> Did someone mention spray and pray?
> View attachment 116592


they might pray your spraying but I doubt , you are


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## Big_Al (Dec 21, 2011)

Cabin Fever said:


> Did someone mention spray and pray?
> View attachment 116592


Post-Reagan that’s about $30,000 or more right there.
That administration did gun owners no favors whatsoever.
Even a lowly M3A1 Grease Gun was upwards of $16,000 the last time I looked.


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