# OxAnkle - Black Baldy Calves?



## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

As a young Lad I worked on a cattle & sheep ranch in the West. At that time all the rage was producing Black Baldy Calves by crossing Herefords and Black Angus.
Do the Black Baldy Calves still command respect in the sale ring?
Are folks still producing them, or have they fallen to disfavor?

You mentioned a local who is a bit of a Dally Lama of Cattle.
Perhaps when the Great Minds of Oklahoma Cattle Country gather for coffee, you could put the question to them and report back?...TIA


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

Even though question wasn't directed towards me I'll answer that Black Blady calves usually sell quite well locally (TN). To me it is an almost ideal feedlot animal carrying somewhat the best traits of Angus and Hereford. However, Hereford cows do have a reputation for developing cancer eye and tits too large for a calf to suckle. My neighbor hauled a Hereford with cancer in both eyes to market. While she weighed out nicely she sold for $.025 pound.


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

The preemo claves/cows to raise here in the Hill Country of Texas are Black baldies with black eye rings to help prevent cancer eye. About a 10% premium in the auction ring. The crosses here are usually Brangus/hereford to get a little "ear" on them. Tough to beat a good Brangus baldie. Have any you want to sell??


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Black baldies are considered one of the very best crossess for both beef calves and as mother cows. We still see a few around here, but not so many as in past years because of the fact that Herefords have lost popularity and are drawing a dock at market. No Hereford cows, no black baldies. Brangus is big here; the locals call anything with both Angus and Brahman in it "Brangus" even if it is 7/8 brahman (which we pronounced "bremmer" when I was a kid.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> Black baldies are considered one of the very best crossess for both beef calves and as mother cows. We still see a few around here, but not so many as in past years because of the fact that Herefords have lost popularity and are drawing a dock at market. No Hereford cows, no black baldies. Brangus is big here; the locals call anything with both Angus and Brahman in it "Brangus" even if it is 7/8 brahman (which we pronounced "bremmer" when I was a kid.



I hate to tell you Ox but putting a good Herford bull over your black cows will get you baldies without herford cows :shrug: 

Mr Wanda
Mike


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

This far North you'd be hard pressed to find any Brahman influence in cattle.
Is there a known breeding plan for producing Goggle-Eyed Baldies?...Our Normandy/Holstien Cross Dairy Cows have white Head with Black-Red Goggle Eyes, but they be Milk cows just the same, LOL.

Is the Cancer-eye Y'all mentioned related to, same as, or totally different than Pinkeye?

Thanks for info and a Happy Turkey Day to ALL


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Up North said:


> This far North you'd be hard pressed to find any Brahman influence in cattle.
> Is there a known breeding plan for producing Goggle-Eyed Baldies?...Our Normandy/Holstien Cross Dairy Cows have white Head with Black-Red Goggle Eyes, but they be Milk cows just the same, LOL.
> 
> Is the Cancer-eye Y'all mentioned related to, same as, or totally different than Pinkeye?
> ...


Actually,I believe in recent years Hereford breeders have been shooting for red rings around the eyes. They make a good cross for several reasons, not least among them they still qualify as angus certified beef.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

No, pinkeye is an infection commonly spread by flies. Causes eye irritation with much weeping. Most get over it on their own but can lead to blindness. Cancer eye, I believe, starts out as something like melanoma (sp?) of the eyelid and spreads to the eye. Not a pretty sight.

You can vaccinate for pinkeye. Not all that expensive. I haven't had a case of pinkeye in 5-6 years. First case though I'll start vaccinating again.

One aspect of putting a Hereford bull on Angus cows is Angus tend not to get oversized tits as they age.

I've heard any solid black animal can qualify for the Angus Beef program. Might be some white allowed around udder.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

Ken Scharabok said:


> No, pinkeye is an infection commonly spread by flies. Causes eye irritation with much weeping. Most get over it on their own but can lead to blindness. Cancer eye, I believe, starts out as something like melanoma (sp?) of the eyelid and spreads to the eye. Not a pretty sight.
> 
> You can vaccinate for pinkeye. Not all that expensive. I haven't had a case of pinkeye in 5-6 years. First case though I'll start vaccinating again.
> 
> ...


 over 50% black hided and the apropriate yield grade will qualify for CAB. There is no angus breeding required.

Mr Wanda
Mike


gogell eye's are not needed to stop pinkeye it only requires pigmentation of the eyelids not the area around the eye.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

For the Angus beef program the animal has to be black (51%) and the sire or dam is supposed to be registered Angus. Putting a Herford bull to an Angus cow to get baldies is asking for calving problems. I sent feeder calves to sale this week. From the same black bulls but to different colored cows, some with charolais influenced color resulting in grey calves here is the price difference. Black steers $1.21 per lb. Gray steers $1.04 per lb. Black heifers $.99 per lb. Gray heifers $.88 per lb. I have been aware of this price difference all along but was willing to keep the gray cows since calf prices have been good and I had plenty of grass. The grass situation has shifted to where I am marginal and I sent the gray cows to the sale also. There will be no more dockage here for off colored feeder calves. Personally I am not partial to the black calves but if that is what the market wants, that is what I will provide as long as the buyers continue to pay the premium..


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

agmantoo said:


> For the Angus beef program the animal has to be black (51%) and the sire or dam is supposed to be registered Angus. Putting a Herford bull to an Angus cow to get baldies is asking for calving problems. I sent feeder calves to sale this week. From the same black bulls but to different colored cows, some with charolais influenced color resulting in grey calves here is the price difference. Black steers $1.21 per lb. Gray steers $1.04 per lb. Black heifers $.99 per lb. Gray heifers $.88 per lb. I have been aware of this price difference all along but was willing to keep the gray cows since calf prices have been good and I had plenty of grass. The grass situation has shifted to where I am marginal and I sent the gray cows to the sale also. There will be no more dockage here for off colored feeder calves. Personally I am not partial to the black calves but if that is what the market wants, that is what I will provide as long as the buyers continue to pay the premium..


 Cab has no requirement for angus genetics a black semintal that meets the grade reqirements will get the premium! As far as the angus cows to a herford bull there should be no calving prob. unless an extreme birth wt. bull was used. If my angus cows would not cross to a moderate birth wt. bull of ANY breed they will be hamburger. Sounds like your calves did good at the sale. What part of the country are you in and what were the wts.? I have calves ready to go but have been waiting for the mkt. to move back up a bit. Calves here moved up 8-.10 cents here this week but that only makes them $.85-90 tops.

Mr Wanda
Mike


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Mr Wanda
Please note the word supposed used in my other post.
Here is how CAB was intended to work


How are you linked to the American Angus Association?

We are a subsidiary of the (Angus) Association. The nine-member CAB Board of Directors consists of the Associationâs Executive Vice President and six members of its board. Thus, we maintain a very strong working relationship with both the Association and its other subsidiary, Angus Publications, Inc.

Our tie to the Association translates into similar goals, although we are geared toward branded beef marketing. As stated in our mission we are clearly focused on creating marketing opportunities for Angus and Angus-influenced cattle.

Certified Angus Beef LLC Mission Statement: Increase demand for registered Angus cattle through a specification-based, branded-beef program to identify consistent, high quality beef with superior taste.

The drive for the all mighty dollar has diluted the program to where Angus influence is the factor (51% black) to qualify CAB to reap the 2 Cents per pound they glean by using the Certified Angus Beef label on anything predominently black.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

When they started this CAB deal they never realized how long it would take to become popular and how hard it would be to provide the beef needed. No breeder would have thought so many breeds could turn black in just a few years :shrug: Semintal is a prime example it is very hard to find one of the traditionall color.Red Lim. are getting hard to find. The black trend has went about as far as it can and more buyers realise that color has nothing to do with quality! Good cattle will bring good money if there is over a couple of buyers at the sale.The CAB premium is not as much as you think if you factor in that a very high no. will not meet the grade criteria so get no extra money!Some of the feeders have figured out that good colored cattle are a much better buy than mediocor blacks that are a longshot for CAB.

Mr Wanda
Mike


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

I too suspect order buyers buy for potential rather than color. I've heard there are feedlots in CA which feed out nothing but Holstein steers. They have reportedly found about 80% will come out as Choice. Cheap input, high quality output.

Then it comes down to the honesty of the packer/wholesaler/retailer. Once the hide is off, all carcasses look pretty much the same to where it comes down to the opinion of the grader. I suspect it wouldn't be hard to have Angus Certified Beef stickers made up on the side.

As I consumer I look at the beef in the package without a whole lot of concern which breed or crossbreed it came from. Even then I have found a crockpot can turn even the lower-grade beef into something quite good.

I'f I going to grill for company I ask the meat cutter at the Mom & Pop supermarket I use to cut me out a couple of high grade, thick ones.

I also believe how beef is cooked is just as important as what it starts out as. A poor cook can ruin even the highest grade beef.


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

On September 13, 2006, CAB announced the largest carcass they will certify will be 1,000 lbs. CAB estimates this crackdown will disqualify about 6 % of their current suppliers.
What's Y'all's opinion on that decision?
Unfair to current suppliers?...Opportunity for new suppliers to fill the void?


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

Is 1,000 liveweight or hanging weight or something in-between?


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

New rules are based on a maximum of 1,600 pounds on hoof or 1,000 pound carcass so I assume that means hanging weight carcass? The push for this came from surveys of food service operators who felt Angus Ribeyes and Tenderloins were getting too big. The largest Ribeye CAB will certify will be 16 inches.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

CAB is taking the heavy carcas wt. so they can have enough finish to marble the meat. The frame scores on all breeds of cattle have went up and they do not start to ''finish'' until they are at a higher wt. The continental breeds also add to the problem. These cattle are now going to slaughter at 14 months at 1300 lbs. and they are not marbling good enough. The breeders are selecting for muscle and ribeye area and there are more cattle grading select. The cow calf operators lay the blame on the feedlots but more studies are showing it may be genetic makeup. As more ddg and gluten go in the finishing rations the prob. will get worse.

Mr Wanda
Mike


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Getting back to the original post, maybe some history is in order. I think the reason for the many years of popularity of black baldies is the superior carcass of the cross, and the tendancies of angus cows, and hereford cows. For many years the Hereford was THE cow of the American west. Ranchers preferred them because of their tendancy to spread out on the typical sparse pasture of the west. Angus cows tend to bunch up, and they didn't get full benifit of the available pasture. The solution was to breed angus bulls to hereford cows.


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

UpNorth here buff-coloured cattle bring the best price (heavy Charolais/Blonde influences). Anything with any Hereford blood showing is at the bottom of the scale.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Well now; I learn something new. I never knew that either cross of Angus x Hereford would produce a baldie. 

Does not make a practical difference here though. Since Herefords are not popular there are no locals using red bulls, so we still do not get black baldies. 

The grey cattle that show charollaise also lose a bit at the sale---I always thought them good cattle. 

I got whiffs of the "too big" problem two or three years ago. Angus breeders had gone to huge animals and suddenly they were looking for more moderately sized bulls. Then I read somewhere that the restaurant trade did not want a steak that flopped over the edges of the platter. 

Also, I spoke to a fellow who has a feedlot up in NE Oklahoma. He told a group of us that he had gone thru a packer's cooler on a tour and that he saw the Certified Angus stamp on carcasses that could not possibly have been an Angus. I suspect someone forgot to get a trademark. 
Ox


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

An Old Herford Bull was King on a coulee and roughcut ranch along the Powder River. One day the rancher brought home a Young Fancy Registered Black Angus Bull and dumped him in the Bull Corrals by the Ranchhouse.

The Old Herford took the young bull aside. " If you want to live as long as me on this ranch, You do just as I say" he told the little black Bull. " Now when the Ranchhouse lights come on for coffee at sunrise, you mount me like there is no Monona. You know, really go at it and make a big show of your strength and Vigor. That way the Rancher will be satisfied you can do the job and keep you around."

At sunup the lights came on, and the Little Black Bull followed instructions.
The Rancher slammed his coffee mug down in disgust. " Get dressed for a trip to the stockyards " he hollered to his wife.."That's FIVE GAY BULLS IN A ROW" :doh:


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

Up North said:


> An Old Herford Bull was King on a coulee and roughcut ranch along the Powder River. One day the rancher brought home a Young Fancy Registered Black Angus Bull and dumped him in the Bull Corrals by the Ranchhouse.
> 
> The Old Herford took the young bull aside. " If you want to live as long as me on this ranch, You do just as I say" he told the little black Bull. " Now when the Ranchhouse lights come on for coffee at sunrise, you mount me like there is no Monona. You know, really go at it and make a big show of your strength and Vigor. That way the Rancher will be satisfied you can do the job and keep you around."
> 
> ...



:shrug: :help:


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

Hereford rancher wanted to produce Black Bladies so he went out and bought the biggest Angus bull he could find. Delivered him right to the pasture. As soon as the bull walked out of the trailer he spotted a group of cows, walked over and serviced them all, whether they needed it or not. Taking a couple of minutes to catch his breath he spotted another group of cows and did the same. This went on until every cow in the herd had been serviced - whether they needed it or not. Angus then noticed two Hereford bulls standing off to the side of the pasture. An older and younger one. As the Angus walked over towards them the young one started to snort and paw the ground. Older bull said, "What are you doing, you ain't gonna beat that bull." Young one replied, "Heck, I don't want to fight him, I just want him to know I'm not a cow."


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Which leads us to the old bull standing atop a hill with his younger sidekick as they watched the rancher unload a truck of heifers down by the pens. 

Younger bull says "Lets run down there and nail us one of them beauties". 
Old bull says, "Nah, lets walk down there and nail 'em all."

Which leads me to the AI tech who bred the last of my cows. They are used to getting a cube when I let them out of the chute, so this one stepped out and calmly walked around for her cube. Tech says "Now what does she want? My name and phone number?"

I suspect he has gotten a lot of mileage out of that comment.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Which brings us to the traveling ventriliquist with the broken car. Stops at the lonley ranchers house, says he needs a place to spend the night. Rancher of course welcomes him in. In the morning, the ventriloquist decides to have a little fun with the rancher, says to him "say, you mind if I talk to your dog?" The rancher looks at him funny like, and finally says, "sure go ahead". The ventriloquist talks to the dog, and of course the dog appears to answer back. The rancher is quite amazed. They go outside, and the rancher saddles his horse. Of course the visitor asks the same question and talks to the horse, then the cat, then the chickens...............Pretty soon a pretty little brown eyed heifer runs down the hill towards the rancher. The Ventriloquist asks if he can speak to this fine example of bovine beauty. After a long pause the rancher says"OK, but don't believe a dang thing she says, she's the biggest liar on the ranch"


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

Clem was out checking the NorthEast Section for strays -Alone. Only three days before, he had buried his lifelong friend and Ranching neighbor Sonny.
He paused on a High Ridge and scanned the Horizon. Not a living soul but for a few Pronghorn a grazin'.

Down from the heavens came Sonny's booming voice " Clem, You jist gotta get up here! Lush Grass that never ends. Sweetwater creeks and shade trees every half mile. And the Gals, why there' so many Gals I can't even handle 'em."
Clem shifted in his saddle and thought to himself " Waalll, won't be long now I'll be a rancher in the sky myself."
"Rancher?", Sonny's voice came back, "Heck No Clem, I'm a BULL!"


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