# God and a personal relationship



## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Got two threads on churches and religions so won't bust them. My big contention over the years has been the "personal relationship" is.

We have personal relationship with our SO,kids and family but for some reason when we expect something similar in a personal relationship with God All I hear is excuses. Especially the "you wouldn't understand or aren't smart enough ones" They will get you nowhere.
I would never consider treating my kids the way some people accept as a personal relationship with God.

The other thing is how many people who fool themselves into believing they are hearing from God. I just recently talked with a lady who was going into a relationship with a guy because it felt right and God had told her to. Two weeks afterward the guy was dead with a heart attack. And a lot of "well you never know" excuse aint gonna cut it

If he wants a personal relationship with me then I expect to talk, ask questions, discuss things and be understood as the dumb one. Just as I would if I was married.

If he can talk plain in the bible and there is no respect to person between then and now then I should expect similar except on a personal level. that goes for miracles as well.

So tell me about yours.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Seems to me God mostly tells people to do what they already want to do.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Why is it that you guys are doing your best to try and discredit Christians and our beliefs? If you don't believe, just leave it at that. I don't try to tell folks they are wrong for not believing in my God. What is the big deal that you have to try and prove Christians wrong in our beliefs?


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

I didn't mention Christians.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Tiempo said:


> I didn't mention Christians.


Maybe not the word but that is who you are referring to.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Possum Belly said:


> Maybe not the word but that is who you are referring to.


Far from exclusively.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

I think people get a little confused on the whole personal relationship thing, myself. 
It's not like God is speaking to you like a voice from the heavens. By studying and knowing His Word, we can know Him better. And those feelings and ideas that we think are from God are easily tested. Do they contradict the Bible? If yes, then it's obviously not from God. 
If no, then it might be. 

But God "speaks" to us via Scripture that we have come to know, gives us peace when we're hurting or stressed, and offers guidance when we're seeking Him. That's personal in my world...


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Possum Belly said:


> Why is it that you guys are doing your best to try and discredit Christians and our beliefs? If you don't believe, just leave it at that. I don't try to tell folks they are wrong for not believing in my God. What is the big deal that you have to try and prove Christians wrong in our beliefs?



Because someone asks they are trying to discredit you.?? What it really shows is that I am not afraid and can back up what and why i believe. but I am still open to what others experiences are and how it works for them.

I actually thought people would be all over this explaining an sharing. What it shows is most people are blowing smoke and dont have a clue why they believe what they believe ,how it works in their lives and neither can they share it other than demanding to know "if you are saved according to their interpretation"

You discredit yourselves.


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

I whole-heartedly believe in a personal relationship with God. I probably don't have the eloquence to explain it or describe it, but I know it is real and I feel God's love and guidance in my life every single day. It is good and powerful and wholesome and right. No matter what happens in this world there is the knowledge that God is always there for me and that makes all the difference.


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## bluesky (Mar 22, 2008)

Possum Belly - If you truly don't try to tell folks they are wrong for not believing in your God then you are, in my experience, a very unusual Christian. That seems to be the whole point for many - spreading their gospel. 

As far as a "personal relationship" goes - I believe in a great intelligence but I don't believe he/she/it speaks to people, guides people, performs miracles, or answers prayers. I think all religions are mankind's attempts to explain the unknowable.


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

TNHermit said:


> Because someone asks they are trying to discredit you.?? What it really shows is that I am not afraid and can back up what and why i believe. but I am still open to what others experiences are and how it works for them.
> 
> I actually thought people would be all over this explaining an sharing. What it shows is most people are blowing smoke and dont have a clue why they believe what they believe ,how it works in their lives and neither can they share it other than demanding to know "if you are saved according to their interpretation"
> 
> You discredit yourselves.


I don't believe you are being fair in this statement. Many times Christians do not respond or give a defense for their beliefs because they do not feel the questioner is truly open or being sincere. I responded as if you were being sincere, however with this post I am not sure if you are or if you are just trying to bait people into an endless debate. 

My thoughts and beliefs will probably not change yours- so be it. I just know what I believe with all my heart and I can't change that either...


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Melissa said:


> I don't believe you are being fair in this statement. Many times Christians do not respond or give a defense for their beliefs because they do not feel the questioner is truly open or being sincere. I responded as if you were being sincere, however with this post I am not sure if you are or if you are just trying to bait people into an endless debate.
> 
> My thoughts and beliefs will probably not change yours- so be it. I just know what I believe with all my heart and I can't change that either...


^^^Exactly^^^


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Melissa said:


> I don't believe you are being fair in this statement. Many times Christians do not respond or give a defense for their beliefs because they do not feel the questioner is truly open or being sincere. I responded as if you were being sincere, however with this post I am not sure if you are or if you are just trying to bait people into an endless debate.
> 
> My thoughts and beliefs will probably not change yours- so be it. I just know what I believe with all my heart and I can't change that either...


Actually i am very serious. Its the whole reason I don't believe. If the bible says there is a personal relationship and nothing comes of it then something is wrong. Witness the post above yours. bible says god does not give us spirit of fear . why then would he make a personal relationship not understandable. Would your family be well with the same kind of personal relationship where nobody really understood each other

Maybe its just me but with no interatcion I see no relationship. And it has to be both ways


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

A personal relationship builds over time. If you make a new friend you probably don't give them the keys to your house and car the minute you meet them. You start out small and over a period of time you learn about them- what they think, how they act, what inspires them, what motivates them. You start to trust in them and they in you. You loan each other tools or borrow a cup of sugar. Eventually you have a friend who is rock-solid, someone you can call any hour of the day or night and know they will have your back no matter what. This might take years, maybe decades, but if both parties commit to the relationship it can happen. 

God is no different, you have to build the relationship- and something does come of it~


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Melissa said:


> A personal relationship builds over time. If you make a new friend you probably don't give them the keys to your house and car the minute you meet them. You start out small and over a period of time you learn about them- what they think, how they act, what inspires them, what motivates them. You start to trust in them and they in you. You loan each other tools or borrow a cup of sugar. Eventually you have a friend who is rock-solid, someone you can call any hour of the day or night and know they will have your back no matter what. This might take years, maybe decades, but if both parties commit to the relationship it can happen.
> 
> God is no different, you have to build the relationship- and something does come of it~


I spent 50 years ad untold money on bibles, books and hours and 2 marriages (being like some here) trying to get one to work and finally gave up. I fully understand that part. It is probably the prime reason for my interest
.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

I'm a believer. Though a quiet one, who is probably going to run faster from a group of Christians than a pagan is. 

And honestly, I've "seen" TNhermit around long enough to respect him. If he says he means X, I believe he means X and isn't trying to really say Y. 

Anyway. 

You all carry on. I've seen enough of how these things go here that I know better than to say anything more.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

.................I firmly believe all the tenets Melissa has posted , but , I also believe that Ole Mr. Devil is just as active is posting messages to our conscious thought wanting to confuse or derail messages from God and create doubt in our heart and mind ! A person looking to God for His decisions in answering prayers must Always be conscious of the possibility of following the wrong path . A person can't just blindly follow the messages they receive . They must be filtered and analyzed prior to implementation . , fordy


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## bluesky (Mar 22, 2008)

TNHermit said:


> I spent 50 years ad untold money on bibles, books and hours and 2 marriages (being like some here) trying to get one to work and finally gave up. I fully understand that part. It is probably the prime reason for my interest
> .


My story is similar. I grew up in church, very sincerely prayed (a lot), read my bible, studied, served whenever I could - and there was nothing - for 50 years, nothing back. So I quit and now I'm peaceful and happy.


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## Michgranny (Sep 9, 2008)

I have conversations with my God, Higher Power, what ever you want to call it.
Some will say it is myself or common sense answering, but I believe it is my God.

When I need help, I ask, sometimes the answer is not what I want to hear.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Well, I definately believe in a personal relationship with my Heavenly Father. Too many situations have occurred in my life not to. I have also heard him talk to me directly many years ago when I was feeling all alone, frightened and asking Him why he had taken His hand out of mine. His response was my first invitation to acknowledge I, myself, had control over my own life experiences as He said, "I didn't take my hand out of yours. You took your hand out of mine."

The Scripture tell us to "...come and let us reason together..." and that is what I choose to do. I let one part of the Holy Scriptures interpret the other parts of the Holy Scriptures. I do this because God is a Spirit and all who understand/communicate/relate to Him must to do in spirit. I do not trust any "man" to interpret the Bible. [Finding that spiritual part of one's existence is a very personal venture and is open to all who seek it. Opening the door to this adventure is a simple matter of being buried symbolically.]

A "walk by faith" in a God of Love is as real to me as my own physical structure, albeit my physical appearance is a great deal more mundane!


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

That is such a hard question to answer because it is different for each person. It would be like me trying to explain my relationship with my husband. I could say we love each other and communicate but you could ask &#8220;how&#8221; and then it would take forever for me to give you specific examples. But, I&#8217;ll give it a whirl at the risk of only making the matter more confusing to you. 
The relationship with God, Christ, Holy spirit, is a spiritual relationship, not a physical relationship. My relationship with family is physical so we use our body (voice, touch, being together in same room, etc.). God is a spirit therefore it happens in my spirit. Where is my spirit? Hard question that I can&#8217;t explain, I just know it when I feel it. As someone here mentioned, Satan is also real and a spirit who wants to be our God so we must always be on guard to not get those two confused. First, we must know God&#8217;s word &#8211; all of it and in context to the chapter and the times in which it was written. The words haven&#8217;t changed but they have affected me differently throughout the years depending on my situation. That is why they say it is the living word. It will meet my need at the time and will fill my spirit differently each time I read it. But, there are a lot of daily things that are not spelled out in the bible so those answers must come some other way. 
 I always tell God in my prayers that he needs to speak loud because I don&#8217;t hear well. I don&#8217;t have time and you wouldn&#8217;t want to read all the particular times and different ways God, or Christ, or the Holy Spirit have answered my prayers in a personal way so I&#8217;ll only share one. I had a near death experience in my 20&#8217;s when I was having my son. That experience changed the way I look at death and even God. Many years later when my dad was sick and in a nursing home, I prayed for years for God to allow me to be with him when he passed because I knew he would be able to see me in that room with him at the moment he left his body. But, how do you know when someone is going to die. It&#8217;s impossible. Anyway, one day I was cleaning the house waiting on my husband to get home in an hour or so and we were going to go visit the nursing home together. I had this urge to put the vacuum down and go to my dad but there was no logical reason to do that since I would be going in a few hours anyway. The urge, the feeling, or whatever you want to call it got stronger and stronger until I realized it was the Holy Spirit and I didn&#8217;t want to question it so I got in my car and drove the hour to the nursing home alone. 
When I got there he was in convulsions and I just felt that he would not make it through the night. He lasted about 30 minutes and I was there with him holding his hand and singing to him. It Just the two of us alone as he went to be with the Lord. I will always know that was a special gift from God to me. I have many other personal examples but I won&#8217;t bore you. Not only those times but there are the daily things that simply let me know that he is with me and we are one. I feel it, I know it, and it has been a great comfort to me throughout life. If you haven&#8217;t felt his peace and joy I&#8217;m sorry but I would encourage you to keep calling out to him until you do. To me, that relationship I have here and now is even more important than eternity although I&#8217;m sure I will feel differently once I get there.


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## SilverVista (Jan 12, 2005)

The personal relationship between God and man is that of parent and child. I've finally (at almost 60 years old!) thought deeply enough about how I love my own children, that a few things have become abundantly clear abut my relationship with God. Crazy that it took this many years and this many churches to see it clearly.

A parent's heart follows their child, rejoices at their growth and success in life, and aches when they are hurt or when they deliberately choose unwisely. Sometimes all we can do is throw up our hands and wait for life to kick the kid in the keister to make them see what we already know. Same with God the Father. He's there, He cares, but unless you are willing to get to know Him, to understand your place in the family, to care back, to accept that OFTEN the answer to our whims and desires is "No" for our own eternal good, then what can He do for you?


I don't really believe in praying for favors. My human father was not a wellspring of money, gifts, or influencing others for my advantage, so I don't expect that of my Eternal father either. I look to him for values, standards, advice, approval, assurance -- and I get it in the form of an active conscience and in seeing the development of the fruit of the Spirit in my personal life and in those on whom I have influence. 


Galatins 5:22-23. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Possum Belly said:


> Why is it that you guys are doing your best to try and discredit Christians and our beliefs? If you don't believe, just leave it at that. I don't try to tell folks they are wrong for not believing in my God. What is the big deal that you have to try and prove Christians wrong in our beliefs?



What exactly makes you think anyone is talking about Christians? God is not the property of Christians only.

I get tired of christians saying that they are being persecuted when someone talks about God. I believe in God and I am not christian


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

SilverVista is right. I didn&#8217;t mean to insinuate that God is there to give me what I ask for. I learned a long time ago to ask for answers and direction instead of specifics because I certainly don&#8217;t know what I need, although I may think I do at the time. Actually, my understanding of the bible is that I am to be his servant, not a catered spoiled child. That&#8217;s where the personal relationship comes in. He guides me by warning when I&#8217;m getting off course and placing things in my path to show me the right way to go. When I do turn a decision or a problem over to him, I do get an answer and when I listen to those answers it has worked out much better than when I went out on my own. Those answers do not come in an audible voice but in a way that I recognize just the same. Just one more example and then I&#8217;ll leave this one alone. A few years back, everything about my life was falling apart and it seemed I would lose everything that meant anything to me. I didn&#8217;t understand why this was happening to me, didn&#8217;t know what to do and saw no way out. At my weakest, darkest moment when I had completely given up I heard him speak to me. Not in an audible voice but in my mind or my spirit and it was unmistakable. He said hold on, 2009 is your year. That was in December of 2008 and I had no idea what he was talking about because I couldn&#8217;t see anything good coming, just the final destruction of my world but it gave me the strength to get up and go on. By February of 2009 life had completely changed and the solutions to our many problems began to unfold just like that. 2009 turned out to be one of the most blessed years of our life and preceded a major change that was needed. As the bible says, what others meant for bad he meant for good and good it certainly was.


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## ginnie5 (Jul 15, 2003)

I'm a "quiet" christian too. I'm not going to preach to anyone. I don't like pray in public either. But I have a relationship with God and I know he's there. I know it and feel it almost daily. The times that I don't feel His presence though, I've learned those times are my doing. It's not because He's not there it's because I've shut Him out. Because I'm too "busy." 
When you meet your SO you don't immediately get married...(ok normally!) you take time to get to know each other....you spend time together, you listen to each other, you watch how they handle things. You learn about them. To me its the same with God. You have to get to know Him. You have to spend time reading the Bible, you have to watch Him, You have to listen. I look out some mornings and see the sunrise and marvel at it, or the sunset. Man can try to imitate it but just can't come close. Look at the animals.....sit still and listen to the birds singing, so many kinds and all different but oh how they blend together in a joyous noise!
And if it makes you feel better.....I grew up in church, I've been in church every Sunday unless sick (or vacation)for the last 25 years or so. But I'm at a point now that the politics of church make me sick. It doesn't help that our small church is morphing into a Sunday morning rock concert either. I leave feeling jangled instead of feeling like I've spent time with God. Now there's nothing wrong with that type of worship if it's what brings you closer but it just gets me all out of sorts.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

TNHermit said:


> Got two threads on churches and religions so won't bust them. My big contention over the years has been the "personal relationship" is.
> 
> We have personal relationship with our SO,kids and family but for some reason when we expect something similar in a personal relationship with God All I hear is excuses. Especially the "you wouldn't understand or aren't smart enough ones" They will get you nowhere.
> I would never consider treating my kids the way some people accept as a personal relationship with God.
> ...


Tell you about my personal relationship with God?
It would take pages and days.
It would make you smile, and it would make you hate me.
When I am in lock-step following Him, I know I am safe.
When I am not in lock-step following Him, I know I am headed for trouble.
Yet so often, I choose my own way.

Explaining Him to someone who is not interested and doesn't see the need for Him, is like explaining 'slope' to me.
I will never use slope in my life, it's useless to me; why must I learn it?
So I have this mental block, that will more than likely produce an "F" on my next exam.......which could prove devistating, because if I bomb the next two math exams, I fail the class, and I have to take it again to get my degree.
No math, no degree.
Oy vey.

When I was 29, off the wagon, and making very poor choices, I was at the track the night before the 500, wasted.....
My gf and I walked past a bunch of "Bible thumpers" playin' music and passing out tracts.
One man had the audacity to tell me, "I was going to hell".
I stopped, turned and smiled and said "really? why?"
I still remember the look on his face.....he was stupified that I stopped.
He said "well the Bible says........." and went on about Jesus, and what He did for me, ect.
I stood and listened, and when he finished I said "thank you for explaining that statement to me". He handed me a little trac with a smiley face on it that said "Jesus Loves You".
I carried it in my purse, for years.
You see, God, was seeking me.
Many many other 'encounters' such as this happened over the years....
It was 5, FIVE LONG MISERABLE years before I 'sought' Him.

I can spout of Scripture all day long.
I can quote this, recite that.....bla bla bla.
But if the hearer is "not ready" or "is not interested" it's not going to mean anything......
Or maybe it does?
Maybe it's just 'sowing seeds'?

Anyway, if you are a nasty carppy person, it won't matter what you say!
And if you are a decent person, but the hearer is "hostile" it still won't matter what you say.
When a person sow seeds, as they are Commanded, one does not sow by taking the seeds and shoving them / stomping them into the ground. 
They are gently cast.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Tell you about my personal relationship with God?
> It would take pages and days.
> It would make you smile, and it would make you hate me.
> When I am in lock-step following Him, I know I am safe.
> ...



Just a little off topic . But you use slope everyday without knowing it. Every time you walk up a hill or a stairs. you are using it. every time something rolls off the counter its in play. Teeter Totters only work by using slope When water runs up or down hill slope is working. Think about it get a passing grade


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Shygal said:


> What exactly makes you think anyone is talking about Christians? God is not the property of Christians only.
> 
> I get tired of christians saying that they are being persecuted when someone talks about God. I believe in God and I am not christian


Right.

Christians dismiss other religions as false, just as people of other faiths dismiss Christianity, or non believers dismiss all religions.

I have to wonder what makes one more disrespectful than the other (assuming it's disrespectful at all)?

Seems to me a Christian dismissing Hinduism is no more respectful than a Pagan dismissing Christianity, or an atheist any other religion.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Well Ive read all the answers and I agree with a lot of it. At the same time I can tell you I have done all the same things that you have. But it doesn't and has never worked. At which time you would tell me I am doing something wrong and I would just a quickly reply that I haven't.
One thing about learning to be a good furniture maker is that you have to be and can not be afraid of being self critical and analyzing your ways,techniques and a every facet. And i can tell you I have done just that. So I guess I will let it go at that and not get into particulars for people to judge me on. I will say that I know of my mistakes but I carry not one iota go guilt.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

All people are spiritual. We have a need to worship. We can worship God, ourselves, money, NASCAR or whatever, but we all must worship. It's like breathing to us. God created man and man created religion. One way or another everything created by man is a religion. We choose what we worship.


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## Twp.Tom (Dec 29, 2010)

Good Morning*, My personal relationship with God,is just that,it is personal.I hope that this does not sound crass,that is not my intention. God speaks to my Heart,my Soul,My thoughts,my feelings-all of these things were given to me-gifts from God*.I am Human,I have faults,I am not perfect-I am a sinner. My relationship,is based on Right&Wrong. I feel in my Heart& Soul,that when I am Living in accordance to The Ten Commandments,That I,and most everyone I come in contact with,can and will Benefit from my Actions and Beliefs.And when things go sour-it just makes me appreciate the times when Life is Good.I hope this can Help. I hope everyone has a Great Day*


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

TNHermit said:


> Just a little off topic . But you use slope everyday without knowing it. Every time you walk up a hill or a stairs. you are using it. every time something rolls off the counter its in play. Teeter Totters only work by using slope When water runs up or down hill slope is working. Think about it get a passing grade



Good analogy.
I think you and I could explain slope to Laura in less than 5 minutes and she'd be on her way to her degree!
Some people understand math easily, some people understand God that way too.
Others spend their lives confused, maybe for a simple lack of an explanation that THEY understand, in their own way.

I'm not exactly sure what it is you are asking for.
Were you asking of a specific instance that we talked to God, one where we asked, waited, and He answered us? Or even better, when He spoke to us when we weren't even expecting it?

I can think of several, and would be glad to tell them, but not on an open forum.
I'm not afraid of ridicule, or even being locked up in a mental ward, lol.
No, that's not why. It's because of the opportunity that some will seize upon to mislead others away from the truth.
Privately, to someone who earnestly wants to know, I have no problem with that.

Same analogy with Laura's "slope" problem. 
A math discussion on this thread would lead to derailment quickly......


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> Good analogy.
> I think you and I could explain slope to Laura in less than 5 minutes and she'd be on her way to her degree!
> Some people understand math easily, some people understand God that way too.
> Others spend their lives confused, maybe for a simple lack of an explanation that THEY understand, in their own way.
> ...


Actually the question was a way of being self critical as I have talked.about. By getting others experiences sometimes you can see your own failings. Sometimes you just aren't meantto be a certain thing no matter what anyone says. We have this propensity to belive that becaseu we are all equal that we all can succed in all areas if we want.and it is only ourselves that hold us back. I find that highly prideful and arrogant


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

jen74145 said:


> I'm a believer. Though a quiet one, who is probably going to run faster from a group of Christians than a pagan is.
> 
> And honestly, I've "seen" TNhermit around long enough to respect him. If he says he means X, I believe he means X and isn't trying to really say Y.
> 
> ...


I could have written the above. My thoughts exactly!


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## 91redford (Sep 20, 2012)

I stopped talking to imaginary friends....now i focus on the heaven & hell that i live in, called life, when i die i will see what comes next or not. i don't fault religion or the religious but i don't care to live by rules set by others....and when we finally discover life in another place, be it planet or galaxy what will you believe then? i consider my self a recovering catholic, that's how i was indoctrinated, shed those chains & am now agnostic and curious.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

TNHermit said:


> If the bible says there is a personal relationship


That's just it, the Bible says nothing about a "Personal Relationship" with God. That's a fairly recent thing, starting somewhere around the 1960's.
The younger generation (then) were a much more 'touchy-feely' type of people than their parents/grandparents/etc were and wanted to feel that someone was watching over them with their best interests at heart, they wanted to to have a parent substitute and there were plenty of preachers willing to give them exactly that. Now 50+ years later, those same kids looking for a 'personal God' are the old folks of today who have trained a whole new generation of both preachers and believers.

Me? I believe God is a God of the big picture: He set this world up to work and probably looks down at it a shakes His head at how we've messed things up. Still, He gave us free will, so he does not interfere: Some actually do follow the teachings of His Son 24/7 to the best of their abilities, most however give it lip service for a couple hours one day a week.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

The Bible is full of personal relationships with God. Every key player in the Bible had a personal relationship with God.


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Just a passing thought: many claim to "have tried" Christianity and have worked at it really hard.

And then say it didn't work so they give up.

Yup, that is right where I believe God wants you. Grace isn't something you work at. It is something you simply receive. Once you stop trying to earn His favor and just accept it, you get it.

Also they often say it didn't work because God didn't conduct God's business in the way the person wanted. I could pray til the cows come home for God to heal a sick person, mend a marriage, give me money, make me have a specific emotional experience, whatever. If it wasn't God's will to do those things, I can ask but the answer will be a resounding NO. It is often at that point people say "It didn't work and God never spoke to me."

Remembering God is God, not us, and that the relationship happens on His terms, not ours, is key.


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

I wasn't raised in a religious home at all. But I always had faith in a higher, all-knowing, loving power. That doesn't mean ( to me, at least) that life gets easy or any less hard sometimes. It does mean I am not alone. It's like those Chinese puzzles you put your fingers in. The more you struggle to get your fingers out, the more hopelessly trapped they are. Relax and they come out easily. When I stop trying to figure everything out on my own and try to 'fix' everything is when I have time to listen to that small inner voice.

I have many Christian friends, I listen with interest and respect...but I can't say they do the same for me. So it is best to keep it to myself. I don't want to change anyone's belief system. Their way is not the only way nor is mine. I pray, have faith and do my best to be fair, ethical and understanding of others. Many different paths, same destination.


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

There is something I've heard a lot, both on this thread and elsewhere that I'd like to address. It's the idea that God "doesn't do anything for me" or one doesn't "get anything from it" (meaning God.)

God does not owe me anything. He already sent his only son to DIE in my place, so I could be saved from the curse of sin (which is spiritual death.) I didn't ASK God to send Jesus--He just loved me (and the whole world!) enough to do it. As a born again believer, I owe him, not the other way around.

We either believe the Bible, or not. For me, faith is believing even though I can't see or physically touch him. Faith is the hope that when my earthly life is done, God is waiting for me at the other side. It will be then and only then that I will "see" and "get" a reward for that faith.

TNHermit, I have a lot of respect for you and I sincerely hope that you will find that faith. The Bible says that we WILL find God if we seek him with all of our heart. Keep seeking, my friend. The Bible is full of examples of people who walked by faith, without "getting" anything--for YEARS. Yet those same folks are recorded as being faithful, and they are cheering us on as we walk the same journey.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

JJ Grandits said:


> The Bible is full of personal relationships with God. Every key player in the Bible had a personal relationship with God.


Not only that but it says god is not a respecter of persons. To me that says what ever blessings they or anyone before me had I can also have. I including sandals that last 40 years, or to live to be 120 with good eyes and teeth. And I m not talking about Handouts or freebies but something you should be able to believe for.
And if it means I have to talk ass to ass or a burning bush so be it.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Becka said:


> There is something I've heard a lot, both on this thread and elsewhere that I'd like to address. It's the idea that God "doesn't do anything for me" or one doesn't "get anything from it" (meaning God.)
> 
> God does not owe me anything. He already sent his only son to DIE in my place, so I could be saved from the curse of sin (which is spiritual death.) I didn't ASK God to send Jesus--He just loved me (and the whole world!) enough to do it. As a born again believer, I owe him, not the other way around.
> 
> ...


For me its not about getting things. Actually I could do with a few hundered things I di get along the way and didn't need.  But at the same time I see no [problem claiming the promises he made.
Sorry but you can't claim to be all in all and ask/tell people to follow you and not assume some responsibility for them. And when you give you give with no strings or its not a gift.

I can see no better testimony than for Christians lives to keep moving ever more positive despite e the fact that they are subject to the same trials and problems as anyone. There is nothings to say you have the same outcome. And quite frnkly I think that is what a lot of people judge others on. If they see the same outcome what makes Christianity any better. Believing that it will all be better on the other side if we just suffer now just doesn't compute or stack up with what I read


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## Lazaryss (Jul 28, 2012)

Shygal said:


> What exactly makes you think anyone is talking about Christians? God is not the property of Christians only.
> 
> I get tired of christians saying that they are being persecuted when someone talks about God. I believe in God and I am not christian


With all due respect Shygal, on this particular issue, the OP was speaking of the personal relationship angle which is primarily used by Christians.


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## bluesky (Mar 22, 2008)

nodak3 said:


> Just a passing thought: many claim to "have tried" Christianity and have worked at it really hard.
> 
> And then say it didn't work so they give up.
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying but in my case this is not how it was. I rarely prayed for _things_. I prayed a lot of thanks and general blessings for family and friends. I attended services whenever possible, served in nursery, choir, kids ministry, community projects, etc. My whole life revolved around our church and faith for many, many years. But here's the problem. There was no heart, no "me" in it. I tried so hard. I tried not trying. God was not there because he's not there. I was not defective or lacking. 

The personal god I was taught about all my life is our creation, to make us feel safe and comforted, and sometimes to control us. There is a "god" but none of us really know who or what he/she/it is. We know what we've been taught or accepted as real but we don't know anything. If your faith works for you, that's totally your call -but for me, it did not and I'm okay with that. (My family is greatly upset but I'm done pretending.)


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

TNHermit said:


> Actually the question was a way of being self critical as I have talked.about. By getting others experiences sometimes you can see your own failings. Sometimes you just aren't meantto be a certain thing no matter what anyone says. We have this propensity to belive that becaseu we are all equal that we all can succed in all areas if we want.and it is only ourselves that hold us back. I find that highly prideful and arrogant





TNHermit said:


> Not only that but it says god is not a respecter of persons. To me that says what ever blessings they or anyone before me had I can also have. I including sandals that last 40 years, or to live to be 120 with good eyes and teeth. And I m not talking about Handouts or freebies but something you should be able to believe for.
> And if it means I have to talk ass to ass or a burning bush so be it.



OK, I see now what you're talking about because I've BTDT.
That was always a big one for me too, and I see for others on this thread as well.
Th only thing I can tell you is how it is with me. When it's really important and most critical, is when my my heart is most sincere and open. And it isn't always, not ever actually, something that I want. I should say it's usually something of no material value whatsoever......like an answer to a question.
The one that comes to mind most often was sitting in the place my brother died, and asking the question "Why?" "Why him, why now?"
My personal relationship might seem disrespectful to some, but that's none of their business.
I flat out said I wasn't leaving that spot without an answer, and I didn't care how long I sat there.
He knew my demand was coming from pain, not disrespect, and it wasn't 5 minutes before He sent a rather inconspicuous messenger with the answer I was looking for.
I can think of several other examples, all a little different, but with the same results.
I can think of one, where He sent me on a mission and then seemingly left me on my own. It wasn't until the very end, that my reason for being there was obvious.
Kind of like a parent letting their child figure everything out themselves.
Because He knew I could and would, because He had taught me well.
Now, I see things that are happening around me that may not make sense to others, but make perfect sense to me, because I see things in a different way now, not as an impatient, insecure little child, but as an adult who has been taught by a wise parent.
Does that make any sense?


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Me an' God talk all the time.

(I refer to Him as "Father")

Our conversations almost invariably end with Him quipping, "welcome to the real world, Kid".


:shrug:


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

TNHermit said:


> Got two threads on churches and religions so won't bust them. My big contention over the years has been the "personal relationship" is.
> 
> We have personal relationship with our SO,kids and family but for some reason when we expect something similar in a personal relationship with God All I hear is excuses. Especially the "you wouldn't understand or aren't smart enough ones" They will get you nowhere.
> I would never consider treating my kids the way some people accept as a personal relationship with God.
> ...


I have no idea what you are saying. Could you explain what you mean?




Shygal said:


> What exactly makes you think anyone is talking about Christians? God is not the property of Christians only.
> 
> I get tired of christians saying that they are being persecuted when someone talks about God. I believe in God and I am not christian


Satan believes in God. He knows Him. That doesn't make him a believer. Christians are the property of God. 
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me."


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Forerunner said:


> Me an' God talk all the time.
> 
> (I refer to Him as "Father")
> 
> ...


I've had a few conversations like that myself, lol.
He does have quite the sense of humor......


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

TNHermit said:


> If he wants a personal relationship with me then I expect to talk, ask questions, discuss things and be understood as the dumb one. Just as I would if I was married.
> So tell me about yours.


I asked, He explained... all of my questions and any I might have ever come up with in the future. After our little "visit" I went back to work doing what I needed to do... and have been doing so ever since. There is something about being in His presence just once that eliminates the need for further questions or conversation.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Lazaryss said:


> With all due respect Shygal, on this particular issue, the OP was speaking of the personal relationship angle which is primarily used by Christians.



No it isnt. Talk to pagans sometimes


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## Lazaryss (Jul 28, 2012)

Shygal said:


> No it isnt. Talk to pagans sometimes


Used to be one . I am talking about the context of this thread.


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## Big Dave (Feb 5, 2006)

I have not read all the stuff from those that replied. Youasked about MY relationship with MY SAVIOUR. It is constant. I pray daily and listen . HIS answers are for me. They do not always come after every prayer. They may not be answered and that is the answer. I read my Holy Scripture daily and it gives me guidance from the wisdom of the ages. This is my answer to your question of my relationship with the HOLY FATHER. Pm if you would like.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

I know some people who all attend the same church and speak of having a personal relationship with God. They often make it sound as though they chitchat with him and he answers all of their questions like a Magic 8 Ball. Some believe that He speaks to them directly in tongues.

Looking at the Bible, there are some people who received messages directly from God, but they are few and far between when you consider the population of a given area. It is highly doubtful that God is having all of these discussions with all of these people that happen to congregate in one place of worship.

One woman told me that God helped her to lose weight by telling her 'to eat this for breakfast, eat this for lunch and I'll get back to you about dinner.' That seemed a bit odd to me, but I wasn't about to disrespect her or her faith by telling her that it seemed unlikely.

When someone tells me that they feel "led" to do something, that doesn't seem so "out there", if you know what I mean. Whether you believe in God or not, being led can mean a lot of things. It can mean that your instincts are telling you to do something (like when animals know that a storm is coming and they prepare in their own ways). I always listen when someone says that feel that they are being led and I weigh it against what I know about that person and my own feelings of being led down the same path (or not!)

For the record... I do believe in God and I talk to him everyday. He has never had a full-fledged (human-type) conversation with me.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Farmrbrown, Oh yes, that makes perfect sense...at least to me!
God is a god of love, understanding, patience & absolute wisdom/power. He watches us, gives us opportunities to learn and teaches us when we are open to being taught. Oh yes, He knows, too, about our deficiencies and our stubborn reluctance to step out into something different from what we were taught in our youth. (My personal experiences would cause some to call me names and think I was desrespectful to God; however, God takes us where we are and uses what He knows will work to teach us what we are willing to learn. Going into details of my spiritual growth would be quite lengthy; however, suffice it to say God is a spirit and encourages those of us who have accepted the gift of the Holy Spirit to help each other. This can definately be physical, emotional & intellectual help. He helps us clean up our own mundane lives so we are in harmony with His spiritual existance and are better able to help others. Thus, we wind up walking in a spiritual relationship with our Heavenly Father being guided by a close relationship with the Holy Spirit in this world we phyically live in.) I personally believe one cannot have a relationship with God without a spiritual mediator and one cannot maintain such a spiritual relationship without going thru stages of spiritual development, i.e. first the milk; then the meat.

I highly suspect many are attempting to have a personal relationship with God without accepting what is needed to become spiritual; and that simply cannot be done because *God is not human. He is a SPIRIT*!


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## Marsha (May 11, 2002)

I really like this topic!! I think the best way I can explain my personal relationship with God is that it can be compared to a marriage in a way. My hubby, and I have been married 33 years, and it seems the longer we are married the more we think alike.  

My personal relationship with my Beloved Father is a lot like that. I spend lots of time with Him, and I try to faithfully read His word, and know His heart. I also spend lots of time talking to Him...even though He knows what I am already thinking, I just like talking to Him...He is a great listener!! He knows me better than I know me, which is really great when you think about it!

Our family was at a meeting several years ago, where some of our long time friends were also at. During a time of visiting at the meeting, where there were lots of people I did not know, one woman mentioned to my friend, and I that she observed that we must have been long time friends because of the way we were interacting with each other, and the comfort we had around one another. That is how I feel with my relationship with my Father..I try to include Him in my whole life...I want His imput, and I really like having Him around...He truly is the best Father someone could have!!

How could I not love Him, when I read from His word what great steps He, and His Son took to make a way of salvation for me? He loved me so much that He gave me the very best He had...His son Jesus as my sin sacrifice. When you know someone loves you that much, it makes loving them back so much easier. 

I pray someday you can understand the desire to have a close personal relationship with God. He knows the questions, and maybe the doubt you have about Him, but, He still loves you, and desires to have a personal relationship with you. 

Maybe someday you will...I know He is waiting for that day!! Hope it is soon, because, God has so much to offer you, I wouldn't want you to miss out on any of it!!



~Marsha


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## AAcre (Mar 2, 2013)

My personal relationship with God may seem like it's not enough, but it's perfect for me. I was born and raised Catholic and to date, I am not a Catholic, Christian, agnostic, pagan, or atheist. I'm just a person who believes in a higher power, who I usually call "God" or "Father". I don't really read the Bible, in fact, I haven't paged through mine in a good year or so. I believe that the Bible is merely an inspirational book, or even a self-help type of book. It's good and can be useful, but I don't live by it completely. I believe that God has instilled in the majority of people, a conscious that can determine what is morally right and what is wrong. So, obviously, I have beliefs that are similar to that of Christians.
I'm not one that will try and convert you to believe the way I do, instead, I would rather accept you the way you are. I'm uncertain how anyone can actually really be an atheist or agnostic, but that is your choice. I am not afraid to share they way I believe in a God, and I will, but I won't force you to accept it, just ask that you respect my choice as I respect yours. 
Every day, my soul leaps with great joy and is bursting with love for my God. I have gone through many a rough time, but God has held my hand through it all. He has given me peace when I needed it, a laugh when I needed it, a cry when I needed it, and a swift kick in the grits when I needed it. I figure that God gives me hardships because He knows I can handle them, so I always try to see the good in it, but I won't over-analyze it. 
I feel as if my personal relationship with my God is flourishing, and I can only hope that everyone else also has some sort of good relationship with their God.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Was thinkin about all that has been said. Some intersting stuff. But I thought I would explain a little more what I think a personal relationship to me is.
For me bein single my idea is that I cant get as much done and would rely on him more. Not to do what I should do but things like when this morning I go out for some tin snips to cut some metal. I know that its going to be a tough cut. In my mind I want to say 
"which snips are the sharpest dude " and he says "use the green handle ones sparky""

Or if I don't have a lot of money I look to him to keep things running till I can be a place where I can get better. 
If There are several things the same I want to be able to say which is best. and get an answer. Or how do I fix this thing that did break.

Some of the more self righteous people think you want to use God for servant but that is not it. I would those things for my kids if I was in a place. Plus the bible says its the little things that spoil the vine. Like I said I pay attention to timing of things and being a furniture maker little things stand out to . When I cover soemthing up to keep it dry I wanna say "thats the best I can do" and here not to worry I'll put your angel on it.
In other words I do my part first and he makes up the rest. Like I said we all fact the same trials but I'm a staunch believer that for a person with a personal relationship that the outcome should be entirely different.

If he can provide shoes and manna for a bunch of rebellious Jews he can do the same for me. If he is the same back then and now. And its not a matter being arrogant. Its a matter of when people say to you how come things always work out for you , you get to tell them about your special friend. That is how I believe people are suppose to testify.
And if you get a good partner someday it will be all that much better. Of course it always isn't going to be 100%.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> In my mind I want to say
> "which snips are the sharpest dude " and he says "use the green handle ones sparky""


The Creator of the Universe isn't Norm... 



> If he can provide shoes and manna for a bunch of rebellious Jews he can do the same for me.


Well I'm not seeing how this pertains to the personal relationship aspect, but God is _still_ providing. 
He found us a car, and a house, as an example. 

I've talked about our $500 trailer house around here quite a bit, but I'm not sure I've mentioned the whole story that goes with it.

When DH lost his job a couple of years ago (and the house that came with it) we moved into our shop because that was the only home we had! From June-September it wasn't too bad. October was getting pretty chilly on the high plains, though. 
By the end of October, we were starting to panic. "Lord we're trying to wait on your timing, but it's getting mighty cold!"

Literally two days later, DH was in Co-Op and found the advertisement for a trailer house we'd seen before. Except that the "$5000 OBO" was crossed out and re-written "$_500_."
He grabbed it off the wall and told the owner (who worked the counter) that we'd take it. 

Non-believers would tell you it's just a coincidence. But then non-believers also say that the manna was a coincidence, too.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

TNHermit said:


> Was thinkin about all that has been said. Some intersting stuff. But I thought I would explain a little more what I think a personal relationship to me is.
> For me bein single my idea is that I cant get as much done and would rely on him more. Not to do what I should do but things like when this morning I go out for some tin snips to cut some metal. I know that its going to be a tough cut. In my mind I want to say
> "which snips are the sharpest dude " and he says "use the green handle ones sparky""
> 
> ...


Its sounds to me like you are looking for the wrong things in a personal relationship with God.... think a bit less about your world, and a bit more about His and He may just come round and reveal Himself to you. When/if that happens, you will suddenly realize just how insignificant the things you currently value really are.


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## foxtrapper (Dec 23, 2003)

TNHermit said:


> So tell me about yours.


I don't have one. Doubt I ever will. 

Turns out, that might be a very good thing for a person like me. It keeps me hunting, which keeps me interested.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Its sounds to me like you are looking for the wrong things in a personal relationship with God.... think a bit less about your world, and a bit more about His and He may just come round and reveal Himself to you. When/if that happens, you will suddenly realize just how insignificant the things you currently value really are.



might want to look up the definition of personal  And like i said "its the little things that spoil the vine"

its intersting to note all those that want to define "MY" personal relationship in terms of their own


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

No, what's interesting is that you're trying to get _God_ to fit your definition of relationship, rather than the converse


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

ErinP said:


> No, what's interesting is that you're trying to get _God_ to fit your definition of relationship, rather than the converse


Please do show the where he defines the requirements and rules.and how it is suppose to work. Once again it wouldn't be personal if its the same for everyone. Maybe you just can't imagine that kind of relationship

And in light of that you might want to reconsider what Norm does and what God does. i would say they have a lot in common


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

I feel the Spirit as I read this......

You can look at it like this,,,,

God inspired this thread through his relationship with the OP,,,,,,,,,


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> Please do show the where he defines the requirements and rules.and how it is suppose to work.


Shoot, half of the Bible is a description of His relationship with His children!...as Lord, as Father, as Friend. And much of it is also a model and instruction of how _we_ should relate to others as parents, children, friends, and Lord... 
So no, it won't be the same for everyone, but at the same time, you're saying it can't be real if it's not what YOU think it should be. 

It's not supposed to be what YOU think... Just something to consider


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

ErinP said:


> Shoot, half of the Bible is a description of His relationship with His children!...as Lord, as Father, as Friend. And much of it is also a model and instruction of how _we_ should relate to others as parents, children, friends, and Lord...
> So no, it won't be the same for everyone, but at the same time, you're saying it can't be real if it's not what YOU think it should be.
> 
> It's not supposed to be what YOU think... Just something to consider


You think it should be what you think it should be. Go figure


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I actually like TNHermit's post. Yes it does sound more this world oriented; however, it was God, Himself, who thought so much of this world that He sent His only Son to this world to help us learn about him. He DID provide for the many coming out of Egypt; and He WILL provide for the few living when His Son stands up and gets ready to return. (I fully expect God to "physically" protect/feed me during this time.)

I must refute the idea TNHermit sounds as though he is looking for the wrong things in a personal relationship with God; also that TNHermit is trying to get God to fit his definition of a relationship. I definately believe a personal relationship with God is different for every single person; and really, would anyone want it any other way? The only commonality of such relationships is that it will be on a "spiritual" level while tending to mundane survival/events.

May I suggest, when any of us "interpret/define" what another says, that we actually ask that party if our interpretation/definition is accurate? Ummm and this suggestion is for you too TN.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> You think it should be what you think it should be. Go figure


Actually, no. 
I didn't really have any preconceived ideas. Leave yourself open and you'll be pleasantly surprised what you'll find. 

All I'm saying is that you can't hope for a connection with _anyone_ if all the while you're telling them how they're supposed to relate to you...
That might be why you're not finding it. You're creating too many rules.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

ErinP said:


> All I'm saying is that you can't hope for a connection with _anyone_ if all the while you're telling them how they're supposed to relate to you...
> That might be why you're not finding it. You're creating too many rules.


I hope you remeber this the next time you get mad at your husband


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

TNHermit said:


> Was thinkin about all that has been said. Some intersting stuff. But I thought I would explain a little more what I think a personal relationship to me is.
> For me bein single my idea is that I cant get as much done and would rely on him more. Not to do what I should do but things like when this morning I go out for some tin snips to cut some metal. I know that its going to be a tough cut. In my mind I want to say
> "which snips are the sharpest dude " and he says "use the green handle ones sparky""
> 
> ...



I've tried to make it that close and intimate, as in _right there_ at any time, like your next door neighbor...........but I'm sorry to say I just don't think that's possible now.
When I saw your post below, I decided to do a little searching thru scripture for an answer.
The overwhelming quotes were from the New Testament, which I took to mean more in reference to Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit. There was very little in the Old books..........except for Adam. He actually got to walk and talk with Him just like you were describing.
Sure there are other Notables, like Noah, Moses, Elijah, but even they had brushes that I wouldn't call an everyday, casual kind of thing.
So I think that's the answer, unfortunately. Once that trust was broken with Adam, He's still there when it counts, but at an arm's length distance. Hence the reason for the rest of the book. Until we meet again on better terms, I guess.
Keep asking though, it's important for both of you. 



TNHermit said:


> Please do show the where he defines the requirements and rules.and how it is suppose to work. Once again it wouldn't be personal if its the same for everyone. Maybe you just can't imagine that kind of relationship
> 
> And in light of that you might want to reconsider what Norm does and what God does. i would say they have a lot in common


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

TNHermit said:


> Please do show the where he defines the requirements and rules.and how it is suppose to work. Once again it wouldn't be personal if its the same for everyone. Maybe you just can't imagine that kind of relationship
> 
> And in light of that you might want to reconsider what Norm does and what God does. i would say they have a lot in common


No harm meant, but the rules and requirements are simple.......
No. 1 One must admit to themselves that they are of a sinful nature, and prone to sin

No. 2 One must admit to the fact that Christ died, rose again, is the Son of God, and the only one that can take care of their sins, and then

No. 3 One must yield when the time comes, cause the time can pass you by

Now the fun begins, because when you change, ole scratch can't stand it. He'll throw everthing at you plus the kitchen sink. Every man woman and child has a weakness, and the devil will try his best to turn you. So you have to talk to God. Talk is the first step in a relationship, isn't it. So you learn how to pray. Bible says to repent and the Lord will sure to hear, so admit your human and that God is the only way and pray. We all will sin and need to ask the boon of forgiveness till we leave this life. Your relationship with God will come through this: prayer, repentance, and the study of Gods word....repeatedly without end. Then there will come a time things will fall in place, or there should.
You have to perservere though......and it can be a pain in the butt sometimes.....You just have to have faith and walk on, walk by, and sometimes walk through.....you can....... only because God will steady your path, armour your sides, and carry you over when going through ain't possible


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## Lazaryss (Jul 28, 2012)

TNHermit said:


> I hope you remeber this the next time you get mad at your husband


God is far different than any spouse, or any living being for that matter.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Lazaryss said:


> God is far different than any spouse, or any living being for that matter.


Thought we were created in his likeness. He walked an talked with Adam. Why would he create something completely different from himself.

People talk about me making things different when I actually see things quite easily without all the voodoo. People want to complicate things into this spooky character. The only difference i see is that Eve ate the apple. And that right there will get you into all kind of discussion and blame.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

TNHermit said:


> Thought we were created in his likeness. He walked an talked with Adam. Why would he create something completely different from himself.
> 
> People talk about me making things different when I actually see things quite easily without all the voodoo. People want to complicate things into this spooky character. The only difference i see is that Eve ate the apple. And that right there will get you into all kind of discussion and blame.



LOL, you've opened another can o' worms that I'm going to leave alone. I will note that the word "apple" isn't mentioned for a few thousand years after that incident though.

But you're right about Adam. That's what I posted above.
And God only had 1 rule back then, and Adam broke it. 
God's our Father, but a stern one. Adam knew the penalty and did it anyway.
What was that verse?
"And it _grieved_ God to make man flesh"........now you know why.
Kind of like the pain AND joy that any child will bring.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

TNHermit said:


> might want to look up the definition of personal  And like i said "its the little things that spoil the vine"
> 
> its intersting to note all those that want to define "MY" personal relationship in terms of their own


To me a personal relationship twixt me and God means just that... twixt me and God. I can only tell you a bit of how our relationship works.... yours may be entirely different. You mention that He provided manna and shoes when folks needed them.... Let me ask you this... have you personally had any needs in your life thus far that have not been met? It is possible that you are simply overlooking His presence in your life. I know in our relationship He has always been quite good about providing my needs... hasnt been real big on leaving a lot of surplus, but my needs have always been taken care of. Just having two hands and feet have been seriously wonderful gifts. Fingers that work like they do, and those opposing thumbs... wow! That was some great thinking on His part!


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> I hope you remeber this the next time you get mad at your husband


I try. 
And that's precisely why I said "anyone."



Lazaryss said:


> God is far different than any spouse, or any living being for that matter.


But at the same time, that's another example of a relationship that we can't try to define on OUR terms. 
We can't tell someone it's not a relationship because they aren't doing it the way _we_ want them to. 
God is just even more so.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

TNHermit said:


> Well Ive read all the answers and I agree with a lot of it. At the same time I can tell you I have done all the same things that you have. But it doesn't and has never worked. At which time you would tell me I am doing something wrong and I would just a quickly reply that I haven't.


Not having read the rest of the responses, I'll tell you this; scripture says 'Seek and you will find'. That's not a suggestion, that's a promise.

Remember, all things work according to God's timing. It took me many years to 'find' Him. In my personal experience, I had to be in a devastating situation where I was willing to completely surrender my will and accept His........not an easy thing at all for someone who is used to being 'in control' of the situation.

Do not give up, TNH. He loves you and the promise is there for you, too.......and for all who want to know Him.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> LOL, you've opened another can o' worms that I'm going to leave alone. I will note that the word "apple" isn't mentioned for a few thousand years after that incident though.
> 
> But you're right about Adam. That's what I posted above.
> And God only had 1 rule back then, and Adam broke it.
> ...


The other thing is God put them out of the Garden and they went to the land of Nod if I remember.. Where there were OTHER people. Where did they come from 
Anyway I think you and me could have some pretty good discussion.

But I got to answer YH cause he pushed my button


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> To me a personal relationship twixt me and God means just that... twixt me and God. I can only tell you a bit of how our relationship works.... yours may be entirely different. You mention that He provided manna and shoes when folks needed them.... Let me ask you this... have you personally had any needs in your life thus far that have not been met? It is possible that you are simply overlooking His presence in your life. I know in our relationship He has always been quite good about providing my needs... hasnt been real big on leaving a lot of surplus, but my needs have always been taken care of. Just having two hands and feet have been seriously wonderful gifts. Fingers that work like they do, and those opposing thumbs... wow! That was some great thinking on His part!


OK this isn't directed at you but you hit a hot button.
What is the deal with so many people with the "Thank you lord I got my can of beans, this refrigerator box and piece of canvas off the road to sleep with tonight I'm such a lousy sinner. Thank you for meeting my needs"

This is the God that created the universe. And US even though he regretted it.
Who tells us we are redeemed. Were suppose to remind him of his word and promises. If I had a kid that acted like that I would slap him up side the head. I would tell him I brought and work every day so he can be way more than that! If you become of age and know what your calling is. Anything from a housewife to a nuclear scientist
Then you should be going to hm and saying" Hey dad rember this that and thte other things. THese are my needs if I am going to be what you showed me. How am I going to excellent at what I do with just a can of beans. And its not all his timing. There are timings in this world. And if there are timing problems is there a reason he can't say to you " You need to hold a bit till I get things in place. Effect certain people attitude and if I can't get it done we'll take another route. I see no reason he has to hide anything from you. He can always tell you its beyond your understanding. but that is communication.

Quite frankly, wrong or not (hot or cold) In my mind this God is a big ideas kinda and lets get with it. Not a barely get along, sleepy eyed grandpa. If people want to have a personal relationship with some down in the mouth,barley get along type I aint interested. And I have never had no great desire to be somebody famous. My whole desire in my whole life was to be a small farmer, cabinet furniture maker with a good family. But when I read the bible it said to me I could be among the best dam farmer cabinetmaker during my time. 
And as I said to this day I have no desire to go to some heaven. I enjoy challenges. I don't and didn't enjoy 50 years of nothing but torment and no answers. When I studied the bible I was the junk yard dog of bible studiers. I have hundreds of books,tapes, what ever.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

ErinP said:


> I try.
> And that's precisely why I said "anyone."
> 
> 
> ...


Every self help book you will ever read will NOT tell you that. All you ever hear is talk to each other. tell your needs. God says remind me of my word and promises. Be as excited with him as your two year old is when it cam to you with new discoveries and thing you already know.

And I responded to the idea that God is some kind of spooky being that is all mysterious. If he walked and talked with Adam he is not that different. Maybe a whole lot smarter and wiser.


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## tallpines (Apr 9, 2003)

TNHermit -------
God was speaking to you when he inspired you to start this thread.
And the Holy Spirit is working through you right now ------ by reaching right through you, to all of us, who are giving thought to your OP.


Which tin snips did you use?
The green handled one?

Did it do the job for you?

If it was the best choice, then that's an opportunity to "give thanks to God" for allowing you to use the brain He gave you, and all the training and experience He allowed you to have that led to your ability to choose the correct tool.

If, however, it was not the best tool, and you needed to get a different one, or perhaps you needed to experiment with a totally different technique to get your desired results ------ then right there ----- was the time to say ----
Hey, God! Thanks for giving me the chance to learn something new today."

Once you get started with sending those small "communications" to God, acknowledging His Presence, you will begin to "hear" Him in return. 
And you will begin to deepen your relationship with Him.

But, as someone posted earlier ......... BEWARE!
The second ole Satan is thinking you're getting closer to our Father, he'll be turning up his devilish ways to fill your mind with all sorts of doubt.

Get started with those, small, tiny conversations with God.
See what happens.
Eventually all of your more difficult questions may be explained, and your heart will be better prepared to "hear" the answers God is giving to you.


God does always answer ALL prayer...........but many times His answer is "no".

Hey, I'll be praying for you TNHermit!
God Bless!


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> Every self help book you will ever read will NOT tell you that.


But the Bible is not a self-help book.  
And telling Him our needs is not the same as demanding He do it our way...



> How am I going to excellent at what I do with just a can of beans.


That's part of an attitude of gratitude. 
Considering there are millions of people on this earth who would LOVE to have my can of beans for supper tonight, I think I'll just say, "Thanks" rather than, "This is it?!"


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

ErinP said:


> But the Bible is not a self-help book.


OK its obvious we are not talking about the same book. So i will leave it at that


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Apparently not. 

MY Bible says, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight." Proverbs 3:5-6

Pretty much the _anti_-self-help book. 

And I'll agree, that's hard for most of us to do. That whole humble yourself before the Lord thing. Truly trusting in Him is one the most basic pieces of humbleness that many of us _really_ struggle with. And it's the opposite of what the world teaches us.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

tallpines said:


> TNHermit -------
> God was speaking to you when he inspired you to start this thread.
> And the Holy Spirit is working through you right now ------ by reaching right through you, to all of us, who are giving thought to your OP.
> 
> ...


The whole reason for this thread is that its all guess work for me. there is no response from anyone, Never has been. The only reason I have answers is because I live in Bizarro world where anything that can go wrong will and it won't be anything normal. I may be one of the few that not only has to fis thing but make the tools to do it.
And if that is somebody talking to me I m done ,not interest, don't want anymore of it. People shake there head an e tell me I get into more problems by accident than most people do on purpose. Then they run 

This house is a good example. I not only have to fight the bank and their lawyers. I have to fight and educate mine. And all the federal and state govt people I talk to And yesterday I get a letter from a lawyer that says I owe 180,000.00 on a 109,000.00 mortgage. Now I have to take that to the lawyer educate him and try and get him to do something. And yest I have tried other lawyers. They are all the same.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Obviously this thread hasn't gone as you had planned. 

I have to wonder what you were hoping to hear... 
That if you pull the third letter out of every word of John 3:16 it would be the Almighty's email address?


Maybe ask yourself what you were _really_ hoping to find with this thread. Justification for what you already think? The super-secret decoder ring? The path to the humility of a true connection? Or just the answer to a specific problem?

Our Maker is not a genie...You are an extension of Him, and that means _He_ makes the rules. It's not even an earthly relationship where you have a vote. HE makes the rules, period. 
Fortunately for us, we serve a loving God, which means His rules are pretty simple--love others as He first loved us, and love Him with all our hearts, minds and souls. 
But "simple" is not "easy," which is why most of us are still a mess. 


I pray you find what He needs you to find.


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## unregistered5595 (Mar 3, 2003)

TNH-thanks for posting this thread. I hope you find what you need. I believe I have some purpose in this life. I'm just not sure how it fits into God's plan for me--so I listen.

Here is some hope:
Where EVER the message comes from.
http://projectreconomy.org/the-late...ight-against-wells-fargo-foreclosure-abc-news


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

TNHermit said:


> This house is a good example. I not only have to fight the bank and their lawyers. I have to fight and educate mine. And all the federal and state govt people I talk to And yesterday I get a letter from a lawyer that says I owe 180,000.00 on a 109,000.00 mortgage. Now I have to take that to the lawyer educate him and try and get him to do something. And yest I have tried other lawyers. They are all the same.


Perhaps.......you're being 'tried with fire'. Perhaps you must be 'broken' before you're ready to be remade into His image.

Think how many stories in the Bible are about those who had to go through intense trials/tribulations before they were able to cry out to God with a truly humble heart, 'I am helpless and I need You'.

I don't know your deepest heart and I don't know God's will for your life. But one thing I do know with all certainty is, He will not forsake you.


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## PaulaBlanch (Feb 18, 2013)

I am a Christian and have a personal relationship with God. It comes more from within you and reading the word of God (the bible) rather than following manmade customs and rules. I have attached a link below, a YouTube video. It is Ray Comfort and his crew. Very entertaining and funny. But they have an amazing way of putting the Christian experience in perspective. Much better than I ever could. They have lots of videos on youtube, so you can even search certain topics that you have questions about.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlpltpZ5b4Q"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlpltpZ5b4Q[/ame]


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

I have found in my own walk my relationship with God is like any other.
the more I put into it (by listening to him, reading his word and prayer and just talking things through with him) the more i get out of it. 

The ting is, you (general you not specific) have to WANT the relationship he isn't going to come begging for one. I have found in any perplexity that there is Bible advice on it, if i look in earnest and pray in earnest on it. I also have to be willing to let go of what I want and listen.

I read once the best description I have ever heard.
Sometimes God gives me what I ask for. Sometimes he enables me to do with out it.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Txsteader said:


> Perhaps.......you're being 'tried with fire'. Perhaps you must be 'broken' before you're ready to be remade into His image.
> 
> Think how many stories in the Bible are about those who had to go through intense trials/tribulations before they were able to cry out to God with a truly humble heart, 'I am helpless and I need You'.
> 
> I don't know your deepest heart and I don't know God's will for your life. But one thing I do know with all certainty is, He will not forsake you.


If he is trying to break me or get my attention the last 60 years.( iwas reading bible at 6) this is not the way to do it with this junk yard dog. I'll go to hell first1 Think what you want


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

TN, I like you but you challenge God, in the end you always lose.


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## PaulaBlanch (Feb 18, 2013)

Here is another video of the radio show that touches on the subject.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFBVVnyPMbA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFBVVnyPMbA[/ame]


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

MJsLady said:


> TN, I like you but you challenge God, in the end you always lose.



A lot of Gods people challenged him. Even wrestled with him. And he always cheated and busted them in the thigh. Not very nice


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Yep.

Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall. 
Proverbs 16:17-19

Here are a few verses about pride (63 of them). Near as I can tell, God doesn't think too highly of pride...


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

I just hate it when the self righteous get in the middle of a conversation


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Just because I _recognize_ the problem doesn't somehow mean I've managed to conquer it in myself! lol
And I also realize that pride is a big barrier between most of us and God (probably a reason it shows up so often in the Bible).


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

1guy wrestled, he himself was God's chosen man to begin God's nation. 
God did touch the joint but the guy hung on to him.
Which is the point.
Even in all the bad stuff, if we truly trust and cling to God, he will get us through. 
He never promises us an easy path with no scars. Actually Christ promises us the opposite.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

ErinP said:


> Just because I _recognize_ the problem doesn't somehow mean I've managed to conquer it in myself! lol
> And I also realize that pride is a big barrier between most of us and God (probably a reason it shows up so often in the Bible).


how in your eternal wisdom do you recognize 66 years of life. Or have you been appointee to judge me


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

TNHermit said:


> If he is trying to break me or get my attention the last 60 years.( iwas reading bible at 6) this is not the way to do it with this junk yard dog. *I'll go to hell first*1 Think what you want


That is your free-will choice. He loved you enough to give you that free will.

I'm not judging you TNH but it sounds to me as if you want God to meet you on your terms. Sometimes He does, sometimes He doesn't.

Again, I do not know His will for your life and I do not know your heart. All I do know is that if you want that relationship bad enough, you'll do whatever He requires of you.

And, if it's any encouragement to you, I know it's worth going through the most difficult of trials. The relationship is that worth it. You will know peace and joy unlike anything you've ever known in your life.

I truly hope you persevere.


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## tallpines (Apr 9, 2003)

TNHermit said:


> I just hate it when the self righteous get in the middle of a conversation


OUCH!

I believe she was making a statement about herself and the world as a whole in response to a thread started by you.

If your heart is closed tight, then I shall pray even more for you.

At first I thought you had posted with a sincere question and an open mind.
Now I wonder if you intended to just "stir a pot".

Or, perhaps your statement is evidence of Satan getting you fired up just because of your interest in the relationship many of us have with God.
Satan will do stuff like that........


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Txsteader said:


> That is your free-will choice. He loved you enough to give you that free will.
> 
> I'm not judging you TNH but it sounds to me as if you want God to meet you on your terms. Sometimes He does, sometimes He doesn't.
> 
> ...


Well I got all my ideas right out of the bible so he will be throwing his own word in hell


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

TNHermit said:


> My whole desire in my whole life was to be a small farmer, cabinet furniture maker with a good family. But when I read the bible it said to me I could be among the best dam farmer cabinetmaker during my time.


Do you not make good quality cabinets/furniture? The very best? If you do, then that goal has been met and God provided everything needed... just like He promised... if not... ask yourself why not? 

I live in Kentucky.... where God has provided me with some of the very finest trees on the planet to work with. Can I blame Him because my house is not perfectly square, level and true? Is it Gods fault that I am not the best farmer? He gave me good land to work with.... Lots of good topsoil, plenty of rain, and sunshine.... If I am not making the most of it... its hardly His fault! 

If you gave your son every opportunity, and he squandered away his time in unproductive ways.... would you think it was your fault that he failed to accomplish his goals in life?


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Do you not make good quality cabinets/furniture? The very best? If you do, then that goal has been met and God provided everything needed... just like He promised... if not... ask yourself why not?
> 
> I live in Kentucky.... where God has provided me with some of the very finest trees on the planet to work with. Can I blame Him because my house is not perfectly square, level and true? Is it Gods fault that I am not the best farmer? He gave me good land to work with.... Lots of good topsoil, plenty of rain, and sunshine.... If I am not making the most of it... its hardly His fault!
> 
> If you gave your son every opportunity, and he squandered away his time in unproductive ways.... would you think it was your fault that he failed to accomplish his goals in life?


You answer your own words. You know that you have some of the best right there. SO you have faith to keep going.

I know What I have here is a long way from perfect but in it contains everything I need. Its not close to my blue prints (hope for those that don't know its not a feeling) But I have moved into the vision of what this place could be.And I can only do a little at a time. Its the reason I have no desire for heaven. I want to take this to completion and I figure it shouldn't be much more than few thousand years to learn it all

as far as squandering. Those situations you could be working toward the good instead of patching up holes and repairing things that should have never broke in the first place (timing) are the reason for any squandering. And when they happen on a continuous basis. I know there are some here who know good and well what I am talking about. ( Joe Btfsplk) Im not sure most people can discern between earthly happening and spiritual happenings. Its all just co-incidence to them

And sometimes I get a little tired of being the only one around here that has to do everything..


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

TNHermit said:


> Well I got all my ideas right out of the bible so he will be throwing his own word in hell


Did you overlook or have forgotten the part about a humble and contrite spirit?

Don't let the world harden your heart. This life is but for a moment.


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## Lazaryss (Jul 28, 2012)

TNHermit said:


> how in your eternal wisdom do you recognize 66 years of life. Or have you been appointee to judge me


You don't have to recognize 66 years of life to see a prideful attitude in a post.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Not having read all the responses I'll try to post my repsonse. I do believe in a personal relationship with God. If a person who claims to be a Christian does not have that relationship then they are living under the law rather than the grace that Jesus died to give us. So, what's the difference between a relationship and a religion? I grew up under religion. I was not dedicated to the religion because in my mind it was just a bunch of rules and I always felt like if I messed up that God would beat me over the head. Religion did not hold me when I entered into adulthood. I eventually got to the point that I denied the very existence of God after the loss of my children. My life has not been an easy one, but I have always been a strong person and able to bounce back from most things that happened. I did eventually come back to God, or I should probably say come to God, because I never had that relationship. I was a lot like the OP, I was asking questions. I had met people that had something that made them different, in a good way. I wanted to know what that was. So I finally came to the point that I started talking to Jesus, not even sure if he was real or not or if he could hear me. I did not hear a verbal voice, but something did happen. For the first time in my life I felt a peace wash over me. As the years have gone by I have learned to hear the voice of God. Is it audible? No. But I hear it in many ways. He has spoken to me in dreams, in visions, in other people and through the scriptures. The very scriptures tell us to test the spirits whether they be of God in 1 John. Jesus will never tell you to do anything against the word of God, so that's the first clue that you are listening to decieving spirits. I weight everything against the word of God. Yet there have been times that I needed answers to things and couldn't see to find those answers in the scriptures, at least the way I understood them. At those times God will either send someone who shows me another way to look at the scriptures or I feel in my spirit a different way to look at things. This relationship, like any relationship, is not one that just happens. Unless a person is willing to work on any relationship, then a relationship will not develop or last. I talk to Jesus about everything, and then I take the time to listen. Many forget the listening part. What am I listening for? I'm listening for that still small voice that speaks to my spirit. I don't know any other way to describe it, but I do know that it's the Lord speaking to me. And no, it's not always what I want to hear, which is what some may believe.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Txsteader said:


> Did you overlook or have forgotten the part about a humble and contrite spirit?
> 
> Don't let the world harden your heart. This life is but for a moment.



A humble and contrite spirit is not acting like some dog that has just been rescued from an evil master and is in fear long after.

A humble person is one who can admit when they are wrong. Who inst running around taking credit for those thing not of their own doing. Able to acknowledge those around him .
We got this idea of running around in eternal penance for our nature when the price has supposedly been paid. Do slaves when freed hang round the plantation. No they get the heck away and start making a life for themsleves. They begin to act like any freed person. Problems only come when the self righteous come along and want to hold their slavery over their head , judge them and not allow them to move forward.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Lazaryss said:


> You don't have to recognize 66 years of life to see a prideful attitude in a post.


Nor does it take many posts to see who the self righteous are


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## Lazaryss (Jul 28, 2012)

TNHermit said:


> Nor does it take many posts to see who the self righteous are


Honestly, it has a lot less to do with being self righteous, and a lot more to do with having been there. I am probably one of the most guilty when it comes to being prideful, and I've experienced a lot of the problems that come with it. When you look back at your posts, you seem to want God to conform to you. From my life and experiences, I have found that I needed to be the one to conform to God, and that my personal expectations for God were not what God was about. When I came to that realization, and I came to the Lord with a humbled heart, I found myself walking a lot more in step with Him. I am not perfect by any means, and I never will be, but I just wanted to give you a snippet of my experience.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Lazaryss said:


> Honestly, it has a lot less to do with being self righteous, and a lot more to do with having been there. I am probably one of the most guilty when it comes to being prideful, and I've experienced a lot of the problems that come with it. When you look back at your posts, you seem to want God to conform to you. From my life and experiences, I have found that I needed to be the one to conform to God, and that my personal expectations for God were not what God was about. When I came to that realization, and I came to the Lord with a humbled heart, I found myself walking a lot more in step with Him. I am not perfect by any means, and I never will be, but I just wanted to give you a snippet of my experience.



Hard to see me wanting him to conform to me. When it was his word I used.
More like some people just don't believe in the same scripture I do when it comes to personal relationship
It didn't happen to them the way I talk so its wrong and prideful


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

TNHermit said:


> A humble and contrite spirit is not acting like some dog that has just been rescued from an evil master and is in fear long after.
> 
> A humble person is one who can admit when they are wrong. Who inst running around taking credit for those thing not of their own doing. Able to acknowledge those around him .
> We got this idea of running around in eternal penance for our nature when the price has supposedly been paid. Do slaves when freed hang round the plantation. No they get the heck away and start making a life for themsleves. They begin to act like any freed person. Problems only come when the self righteous come along and want to hold their slavery over their head , judge them and not allow them to move forward.


A contrite and humble spirit is also a submissive spirit, acknowledging the price that has been paid for our salvation even though we continue to fall short of the mark.

It is one thing to live w/ the confidence becoming a child of God, it's another to believe we don't still need Him everyday....for strength and guidance.


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## Lazaryss (Jul 28, 2012)

TNHermit said:


> Hard to see me wanting him to conform to me. When it was his word I used.
> More like some people just don't believe in the same scripture I do when it comes to personal relationship
> It didn't happen to them the way I talk so its wrong and prideful


No....

"If he wants a personal relationship with me then I expect..."
"If he is trying to break me or get my attention the last 60 years.( iwas reading bible at 6) this is not the way to do it with this junk yard dog. I'll go to hell first1 Think what you want"

This is prideful.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

TNHermit said:


> A humble and contrite spirit is not acting like some dog that has just been rescued from an evil master and is in fear long after.
> 
> A humble person is one who can admit when they are wrong. Who inst running around taking credit for those thing not of their own doing. Able to acknowledge those around him .
> We got this idea of running around in eternal penance for our nature when the price has supposedly been paid. Do slaves when freed hang round the plantation. No they get the heck away and start making a life for themsleves. They begin to act like any freed person. Problems only come when the self righteous come along and want to hold their slavery over their head , judge them and not allow them to move forward.


Perhaps I misunderstood your reason for posting. I thought it was something that you desired and were asking how to achieve it.

You are His son and He _wants_ to be your Father. Not your former slave-master, but your Father. He wants you to look to Him for whatever you need but not forget Him when things are going smoothly. IOW, He wants to be part of your life everyday and in every way....from the big things to the little things.

He loves you.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

TNHermit said:


> You answer your own words. You know that you have some of the best right there. SO you have faith to keep going.
> 
> I know What I have here is a long way from perfect but in it contains everything I need. Its not close to my blue prints (hope for those that don't know its not a feeling) But I have moved into the vision of what this place could be.And I can only do a little at a time. Its the reason I have no desire for heaven. I want to take this to completion and I figure it shouldn't be much more than few thousand years to learn it all
> 
> ...


You say you have everything you need.... and yet it doesnt seem to add up to your blueprints. Perhaps the blue prints are the problem.... Are they Gods work? or yours? Over the years I have learned a basic truth that I have to be reminded of every now and then myself... Quite often less is more.


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## unregistered5595 (Mar 3, 2003)

Have you ever felt that "grounded feeling" where your head and your heart agree? That is the feeling I pursue.
It's not all thinking, it's not all feeling, it's when they agree.

*âThe longest journey a man must take is the eighteen inches from his head to his heartâ*


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

TNHermit said:


> Do slaves when freed hang round the plantation. No they get the heck away and start making a life for themsleves. They begin to act like any freed person.


Really? All of the history I have read about the former slaves in our own country would contradict this notion. The majority of slaves stuck around pretty close to the plantation after they were set free. Its been over a hundred fifty years now... and even today most of the descendants of those slaves are still living pretty close to, if not on, the same plantations their great great grand fathers were set "free" on. I will agree that "some" of those slaves set out into the world and made a new life for themselves... but most became sharecroppers tending the same lands, using the same tools they had been using all along. The only real difference in their lives was they had new masters (Carpet baggers from the north who came down south and took over the plantations) and a new set of rules (every bit as evil as the old ones) to live by if they wanted to survive.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

It's good to see you posting Sonshine. I have been wondering how you are.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> It's good to see you posting Sonshine. I have been wondering how you are.


Thanks. Been going through water therapy and DH has been having tests run to figure out why he's getting headaches and memory loss, so it's been hectic. I will try to get on more though. I miss reading through the posts.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Is water therapy helping? It was amazing for me.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

Lazaryss said:


> No....
> 
> "If he wants a personal relationship with me then I expect..."
> "If he is trying to break me or get my attention the last 60 years.( iwas reading bible at 6) this is not the way to do it with this junk yard dog. I'll go to hell first1 Think what you want"
> ...


I'm not sure about that. 

Pain and anger can sometimes sound like pride. I'm not saying that's TN, I wouldn't presume to judge another like that, but in general.... yeah sometimes.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

TNHermit said:


> The whole reason for this thread is that its all guess work for me. there is no response from anyone, Never has been. The only reason I have answers is because I live in Bizarro world where anything that can go wrong will and it won't be anything normal. I may be one of the few that not only has to fis thing but make the tools to do it.
> And if that is somebody talking to me I m done ,not interest, don't want anymore of it. People shake there head an e tell me I get into more problems by accident than most people do on purpose. Then they run
> 
> This house is a good example. I not only have to fight the bank and their lawyers. I have to fight and educate mine. And all the federal and state govt people I talk to And yesterday I get a letter from a lawyer that says I owe 180,000.00 on a 109,000.00 mortgage. Now I have to take that to the lawyer educate him and try and get him to do something. And yest I have tried other lawyers. They are all the same.





TNHermit said:


> If he is trying to break me or get my attention the last 60 years.( iwas reading bible at 6) this is not the way to do it with this junk yard dog. I'll go to hell first1 Think what you want





TNHermit said:


> You answer your own words. You know that you have some of the best right there. SO you have faith to keep going.
> 
> I know What I have here is a long way from perfect but in it contains everything I need. Its not close to my blue prints (hope for those that don't know its not a feeling) But I have moved into the vision of what this place could be.And I can only do a little at a time. Its the reason I have no desire for heaven. I want to take this to completion and I figure it shouldn't be much more than few thousand years to learn it all
> 
> ...





TNHermit said:


> Hard to see me wanting him to conform to me. When it was his word I used.
> More like some people just don't believe in the same scripture I do when it comes to personal relationship
> It didn't happen to them the way I talk so its wrong and prideful



I don't see it as pride, TN.
Throughout this thread, I see pain and frustration.......and yet after 6 decades, you still haven't stopped asking. 
You're upset, and impatient, and stubborn.....but you still acknowledge you believe that God exists, otherwise you wouldn't have bothered with the question.
You're just tired of Him not taking 5 minutes to come down here and have a face to face, pick His brain for a few minutes and try to make get some answers to make your life a little darn easier. 
Is that too much to ask?
LOL
That was me for much of my life. If there's one thing that's tees me off, it's being ignored when I'm being dead serious.:stars:
I can look back now and laugh a little, thinking about how similar it looks to scene in a grocery store. A 5 year old tugging at his momma and throwing a fit as they pass the candy aisle. To that little booger, he's getting waterboarded and tazed, all at once! ound:

He DOES seem to take a while to get around to giving some individual attention sometimes, but don't take it so personal.
Go back and read the your posts above that I quoted. I'll pull out the good stuff......




TNHermit said:


> I live in Bizarro world where anything that can go wrong will and it won't be anything normal. I may be one of the few that not only has to fis thing but make the tools to do it.
> 
> If he is trying to break me or get my attention the last 60 years.( iwas reading bible at 6) this is not the way to do it with this junk yard dog
> 
> ...


You work hard, you can fix darn near anything, you don't give up even when things get tough, you ain't afraid of a good fight and won't back down.......and best of all, when all's said and done, you have everything you need.

Hmmmmmm........

Sounds like you were given a whole lot that some others might be downright jealous to have.

But darn it, I just want ONE more thing!

Keep asking, and you will, that's His promise, and you read it right, He's got no problem with you reminding Him about it.
I'll let you in on a secret.
It's not because He's got a bad memory, or because you're a disrespectful brat.
It just shows that YOU remember, and YOU have faith in Him, and when the world is busy telling you what IT thinks is important, you're smart enough to know ............ what IS.:thumb:


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

You know, you had me until those last few posts. What I&#8217;m hearing is an angry frustrated man. What I&#8217;m also hearing but not sure you are is that you are extremely blessed. What my husband wouldn&#8217;t give to be able to do what you do and he&#8217;s 10 years younger than you. He also used to be a great furniture maker but now his tools sit quiet. I listen to him scream from the pain sometimes and there is nothing either of us can do. I watch him walk with his aids and I try to stay close by because I never know when he is going to fall. I pray the next time he hits the ground he will not crack his head. I see him struggle every morning to go milk his cow because he says he is not ready to give up. He does it with an ice pack held on his back using midriff support. We all know it is just a matter of time before he is in a wheel chair and I&#8217;ll have to sell his beloved animals. Look around you man. You don&#8217;t have it bad at all. My husband doesn&#8217;t want my pity though because he knows he is blessed and is ever so thankful for the life he has. There are men in his shape who do not have someone to pick them up when they fall, who do not have a home and the finances to have a good life on the homestead, or don&#8217;t have a loving family. I think if you start praising more, you just might bump into the God you&#8217;ve been angry with.


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## chewie (Jun 9, 2008)

ok, I got some questions. timely thread, as this is what is running thru my head almost every minute.

as most know, I lost my dd17 on april 6th. still no word as to why or what caused a 'healthier than most' (dr's words) teen girl to pass in the night. 

if this is a God of love, how is this love? how is this mercy?? for a few days right after, I kept getting this strong notion (for lack of better word) that it was to 'protect from something far worse". again, if he's so powerful, why not just keep her from that instead of doing this to us??

I am a simple person. I do not need fancy or new anything. I feel blessed to simply have enough food to eat and see the colors in the sky, to see my kids' dirty laundry and hear my husband snore. yes, I have prayed for money, but not money as in it should drop from the sky but a way for me to earn it or save it. I thanked daily for the health and happiness of my family, esp my girls. 

and he took one. or let her die. if this is a personal relationship, like with the horrible things my MIL said, it'd be over. my husband questions another friend, honestly the most faithful servant I could imagine--she's dying a slow horrible death with cancer. mercy??? grace??? love??? how could a God who is so powerful and full of love allow babies to be tortured? why not just render those parents sterile?? 

I have begged for hours and days now to help us. I hear nothing. other than those few days of "to save from worse". was that my own mind trying to save itself? I really question it now. sometimes 'funny' things happen but then again, maybe its just a funny thing. I would've sold my soul to let my daughter live a full life. I'm told He sees into our soul and knows our heart, so my meanings should be understood. but yet here I am, feeling like I will never be whole again, never be what I was, our family shattered.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

TNH, if I came across as harsh or self-righteous in any of my posts, I'm sorry. It wasn't my intention. 

I know that life hasn't been easy for you lately and you have every reason to feel angry and frustrated. I care about you and will be praying for you. But please don't stop striving to be closer to God. 

{{Hugs}}


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

chewie said:


> ok, I got some questions. timely thread, as this is what is running thru my head almost every minute.
> 
> as most know, I lost my dd17 on april 6th. still no word as to why or what caused a 'healthier than most' (dr's words) teen girl to pass in the night.
> 
> ...


You may not feel like it now, but I encourage you to read this...

http://www.raystedman.org/old-testament/job/the-test

And this.

http://www.raystedman.org/old-testament/job/why-doesnt-god-intervene

The answer to the second is found in the first, if you let it soak in.
You're not the only one to ask this, believe me.


When you see what it is, don't dismiss it, there's more there than meets the eye.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

Chewie, I don't know. I think there are some things we'll just have to ask Him if we ever get the chance, face to face. 

I do know that you are right in the beginning of the grief cycle. It is totally normal to be spitting mad along the way. Go easy on yourself.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

chewie said:


> ok, I got some questions. timely thread, as this is what is running thru my head almost every minute.
> 
> as most know, I lost my dd17 on april 6th. still no word as to why or what caused a 'healthier than most' (dr's words) teen girl to pass in the night.
> 
> ...


I have no answers.
I cannot fathom the pain.
If your anger is an ocean, I have only tasted 3 drops by comparison.
No words can console.
Your emotions are 100% valid. 100%.
Whatever you do......don't be silent.
Don't internalize.
Let it out. All of it. As often as you need too.
Chew, I'm so sorry. I am so so sorry.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

It's getting late, and this farmer has a long row to hoe tomorrow, lol.

But Chewie, it's only human to feel that way and ask those questions.
Job is too deep and far off to really get personal to you right now, I think. So I'll leave this thought on the table.

After the initial shock of "Why did God take _her_ from _*me*_, the reality sinks in that she was His from the beginning, on loan to you. Title and possession belong to the only One who can actually create a life and a soul.
But let's say IF, hypothetically, IF God had asked you for a favor in return, to lend Him that precious soul back, for something special He had in mind for her, would you have said, "Sure, no problem"?
I don't ask that in a mean way, but sincerely. Would ANY of us have said, "Sure, go ahead"? Not me either. Not without a fight and some harsh words. 
"What kind of cockamamie idea is tha.........."

And there it is.
We completely forgot what a gift is, and how you give things to others when they need something.......because you do love them.
Now, I have no idea why God would need your daughter now. I know I offered myself in exchange for my brother, begged Him to trade, but when He told me what He needed him for, as hard as it was to let that go, I KNEW all questions I had, HAD an answer.
I just had to ask.......and listen for it.





Sometimes, late at night, or early in the morning, I occasionally ask God, "Hey, is there anything *I* can do for *you?*"
I'm sure the Mightiest Being in the universe gets a chuckle out of one His flunkies coming up with that one, but in a way, that's how relationships are, aren't they?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

chewie said:


> ok, I got some questions. timely thread, as this is what is running thru my head almost every minute.
> 
> as most know, I lost my dd17 on april 6th. still no word as to why or what caused a 'healthier than most' (dr's words) teen girl to pass in the night.
> 
> ...


Chewie, unfortunately, we live in a fallen world. God did not create us to die, but when sin entered the world we bagan to die. From the moment of birth we begin dying. The difference for Christians is that Jesus died to give us life. Our bodies are still going to die, but our soul will live forever. I look at it this way, my precious children graduated. They moved up to the place that for now, I only dream about. Can you imagine your daughter in a place that is nothing but pure peace? A place where there is no sorrow, no tears, no pain? I've been asked many times if I could bring my children back, would I. The answer is no. Yes, I miss them every day. Yes, I wonder how they would have turned out if given the chance to grow up. I see people who would be the age my children would be if they had lived and think about what choices they may have made in their lives. I think about the fact that I would probably have several grandkids by now. But bottom line is, I know that Chris, Brandie, Jessica and Aaron are all in a better place and I would not want to take them away from their Heavenly home, instead I count the days till I will be reunited with them. So often we think we are being punished when a loved one dies, but in reality, if that person was a Christian, then they have recieved the ulitmate blessing, they are in Heaven. Your daughter will never actually be dead. Not the part that makes her who she is. She's just moved to a better place. Yes, we mourn the loss, but in all reality, we mourn for ourselves, not the one who's gone, and that's ok, but stop and think, knowing what you do about Heaven, would you actually want to take her back from there to this broken world?


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

TNHermit said:


> how in your eternal wisdom do you recognize 66 years of life. Or have you been appointee to judge me



I wasn't judging you. 

You said, _A lot of Gods people challenged him. Even wrestled with him. And he always cheated and busted them in the thigh. Not very nice_
And I responded that yes, from what I can tell, God isn't too fond of pride. So He will break people to get past their pride. 
I thought we were just speaking Biblically, since that was the lesson in those cases. 

I don't have the foggiest idea if that applies to _you_, though... :shrug:


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Sonshine said:


> Chewie, unfortunately, we live in a fallen world. God did not create us to die, but when sin entered the world we bagan to die. From the moment of birth we begin dying. The difference for Christians is that Jesus died to give us life. Our bodies are still going to die, but our soul will live forever. I look at it this way, my precious children graduated. They moved up to the place that for now, I only dream about. Can you imagine your daughter in a place that is nothing but pure peace? A place where there is no sorrow, no tears, no pain? I've been asked many times if I could bring my children back, would I. The answer is no. Yes, I miss them every day. Yes, I wonder how they would have turned out if given the chance to grow up. I see people who would be the age my children would be if they had lived and think about what choices they may have made in their lives. I think about the fact that I would probably have several grandkids by now. But bottom line is, I know that Chris, Brandie, Jessica and Aaron are all in a better place and I would not want to take them away from their Heavenly home, instead I count the days till I will be reunited with them. So often we think we are being punished when a loved one dies, but in reality, if that person was a Christian, then they have recieved the ulitmate blessing, they are in Heaven. Your daughter will never actually be dead. Not the part that makes her who she is. She's just moved to a better place. Yes, we mourn the loss, but in all reality, we mourn for ourselves, not the one who's gone, and that's ok, but stop and think, knowing what you do about Heaven, would you actually want to take her back from there to this broken world?


And while all of this is true, it's also OK to be angry and devastated and just want her back home where she belongs, too. Especially at this point...
Someone who is a part of you is _gone_.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Chewie I am so sorry for your loss.
I do think you are right, he took her home to be with him to save her from something worse.
You read this site, you can see for yourself how many folks refuse to follow him or acknowledge him in any way.
The world has fallen and is now in the grasp of satan. God now is getting his people ready to go home. He will do for each what is best. He has not left you, trust in him and he will guide you and someday you will be with him and you can ask him why he did this. I know it seems he did this to you but perhaps he did this for her. 

We also need to remember, this world is not our home. We are not the flesh and blood that is here. We are spirits, who have bodies. The bodies will not last. 

I wish Chewie that I were wise and could put into words what I want to say but the words are not coming. Only tears and emotions (2 things btw I despise).
One thought that occurs to me is that satan some how had his sights on your daughter and the only way to save her from him was to take her home. We are told not to fear those who can hurt our bodies but him who can destroy both body and soul. 

My prayers are with you dear one for healing and comfort.


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Chewie, nothing any of us says right now will make sense.

And people have been trying to understand the purposes of God forever, and whenever His purposes are not what we would choose we can't understand why He would do, or allow, what He does.

I imagine when Joseph was sold off to Egypt and his dad thought him dead his dad went through much the same thing. We of course know the end of the story, that it saved the whole chosen people. Of course as parents we would want to know why God didn't engineer an easier way to accomplish it.

But this much I believe: death happens only because we live in a fallen world, by human choice. And God gave His only Son that we might be with Him and our loved one's forever.

He's lost a Son and knows your pain. Unfortunately really bad theology floating around tells you "God never gives you more than you can stand" which really is NOT in the Bible. And bad theology floating around tells you a personal relationship with Jesus means you don't have to suffer the bad stuff that is common to humanity.

Really good theology tells us that while we humans chose to follow Satan and make this mess, it breaks His heart also and He will walk through it with us.

And He does, oh how He does!


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## am1too (Dec 30, 2009)

bluesky said:


> Possum Belly - If you truly don't try to tell folks they are wrong for not believing in your God then you are, in my experience, a very unusual Christian. That seems to be the whole point for many - spreading their gospel.
> 
> As far as a "personal relationship" goes - I believe in a great intelligence but I don't believe he/she/it speaks to people, guides people, performs miracles, or answers prayers. I think all religions are mankind's attempts to explain the unknowable.


Yeah both relationships and religion are problematic for most people. It seems we understand neither one.


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## am1too (Dec 30, 2009)

bluesky said:


> My story is similar. I grew up in church, very sincerely prayed (a lot), read my bible, studied, served whenever I could - and there was nothing - for 50 years, nothing back. So I quit and now I'm peaceful and happy.


Me too. Church has sucked the life right out of me.


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## bluesky (Mar 22, 2008)

am1too said:


> Yeah both relationships and religion are problematic for most people. It seems we understand neither one.


I _understand_ religion very well - I just don't buy Christianity or any other one as being the _truth_. As I said before, religions are attempts to explain what we cannot know in a way that makes sense to us. God (whoever or whatever that is) does not walk and talk with us or comfort us or fix things for us. Life is what it is - beautiful and horrible and sad and happy - and we walk though it with those we love and care about. Period. And no, I'm not angry or miserable or forlorn, just being honest about what I believe.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

bluesky said:


> religions are attempts to explain what we cannot know in a way that makes sense to us.


Those unexplainable unknowns make a lot more sense to me now than they did before God "explained" it to me. Explain probably isnt the right word... lets say He "made me aware". 

I couldnt begin to explain these mysteries to anyone... I simply do not have the language skills that are required... but after having had the experience I had... the Bible is quite clear to me when I read it now, as is the world when I look around me. It all fits quite neatly together, no loose ends, no contradictions, its all in perfect harmony. Oddly enough I have yet to meet a preacher who seems to have clue. :shrug:


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

It might help us understand each other when we use the word "Christianity" to say exactly what we mean.

Lot's of us found the uber in your face gotta feel this certain thing now and get this certain result now form......killing us.

Many find contemplative, quakerish, or liturgical faith more life giving.

Many don't.

A really good read for those burnt out on Christianity is "Christless Christianity" by Michael Horton. Really helps us see often what hurts us is the form, not the faith.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Regardless of what Webster says there is a huge difference between Faith and religion.
Religion is what men use to pigeon hole God and put chains on people of Faith.

When I accepted Christ as my savior and was baptized, my allegiance was to HIM and HIS word not to the steeple I happened to be in at the time.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Hi
Right after I started this thread I started having interent problems. I got knocked off for right after I made my last post and juat got it back. (Timing!!!) Why becsue its has only happened twice in 13 years. Haven't read all the posts. but will
But in an effort to set some minds on fire and give the pride people a boost  I will tell you this I l realized.
If we have had the price paid for our sins and stand now in righteousness. Then are relationship should be the same as it was with Adam as when he walked and talked with God. Either that or the price hasn't been paid as stated.

And I did catch Chewies post . I didn't say anything when I read about here daughter but I can tell you my tears ran with hers and I know just what is going on in her head. I know about losing children. Fro me is was my oldest/ It took two years and 50 mile stretch of road at the top of the Rockies before I could cry about it

I will be back after I have read. I think if it wasn't for this thread I wouldn't. I been hammered like hell the lat three days. NOt real excited by the reality of this. Looks a lot more story book.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Miss Kay said:


> You know, you had me until those last few posts. What Iâm hearing is an angry frustrated man. What Iâm also hearing but not sure you are is that you are extremely blessed. What my husband wouldnât give to be able to do what you do and heâs 10 years younger than you. He also used to be a great furniture maker but now his tools sit quiet. I listen to him scream from the pain sometimes and there is nothing either of us can do. I watch him walk with his aids and I try to stay close by because I never know when he is going to fall. I pray the next time he hits the ground he will not crack his head. I see him struggle every morning to go milk his cow because he says he is not ready to give up. He does it with an ice pack held on his back using midriff support. We all know it is just a matter of time before he is in a wheel chair and Iâll have to sell his beloved animals. Look around you man. You donât have it bad at all. My husband doesnât want my pity though because he knows he is blessed and is ever so thankful for the life he has. There are men in his shape who do not have someone to pick them up when they fall, who do not have a home and the finances to have a good life on the homestead, or donât have a loving family. I think if you start praising more, you just might bump into the God youâve been angry with.


You haven't read what I said. From the very start I talked about that I do't look at my own situation but put it beside all those all over the world who have it as bad and worse. Also It seems no one here has thought a persons could be irate over the fact of what could be accomplished as compared to what is being accomplished and the uneccesary goings on that keeps thing from happeing. I'm not satisfied witha can of beans a box and some plastic. I was put here for more than that. I realized when I came home form Nam that friends had died and my life was just not mine to fritter away. I owed them a debt of respect (and all since then) to be everything I could be so their sacrifice was not for nothing.
Pu that together with the promises and teachings in the bible and it means a whole nother thing to me. And as long as I am being held back I'm going to scream about it. Had nothing to do with things going perfectly which I have explained also.

As for you husband legs I sympathies. two years I could barely walk. I have/had no health insurance any healing is up to me. I can walk now because I kept trying and banging the door at solutions. Some of things were told are BS. I've found out that shoe size can have a lot to do with leg and knee pain, I take different vitamin combinations. Quinine is one of the best and does me a lot of good.


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

There was a time my husband, a childhood polio victim, would have agreed with you TNHermit.

Until he started working with polishing stones and then years later with woodworking.

He makes some absolutely gorgeous furniture.

But thing is, he can't make a blamed thing until a tree dies. And even then he has to cut it, put it through the planer and this thing-a-majig and that one, and use more sanding that I can imagine that wood would choose if it were a feeling thing. And more cutting, and sawing, and pinning, and whatever you do with routers and rabbits, etc. Then comes the fine finishing which isn't easy on him and I bet wood wouldn't like it either.

But through it all something beautiful is made.

And then he comes in for supper. I might have made him biscuits. Of course, that means a grain of wheat gets harvested and threshed and ground and shipped and cooked. (All after another grain of wheat had to die.) And then I torture it with the oven

Sometimes, if ya wanna make an omelet, you have to break some eggs.

And sometimes, if ya wanna make something of eternal beauty, you have to be brutal in the manufacturing stages.

Praying you get out of the grit stage and on to the fine finishing soon, and peace!


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

TNHermit said:


> Hi
> Right after I started this thread I started having interent problems. I got knocked off for right after I made my last post and juat got it back. (Timing!!!) Why becsue its has only happened twice in 13 years. Haven't read all the posts. but will
> But in an effort to set some minds on fire and give the pride people a boost  I will tell you this I l realized.
> If we have had the price paid for our sins and stand now in righteousness. Then are relationship should be the same as it was with Adam as when he walked and talked with God. Either that or the price hasn't been paid as stated.
> ...




Take your time and let it sink in.
Understanding even enough to get past all the BS that gets spread around by others that are just as confused as the rest of us, does take time.
I'll just say that thinking we can get back to the same way it was in Adam's Garden, is like thinking you can go back to being a virgin again. lol.:nono:
Or if you will, like a broken marriage. Think of Jesus as the marriage counselor. You just can't crawl right back in the bed and even if you stay together, it's going to take more than some flowers before things will be set right again.
Think about that for a while and you'll see the bigger picture.
IOW, not just yet........


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> Take your time and let it sink in.
> Understanding even enough to get past all the BS that gets spread around by others that are just as confused as the rest of us, does take time.
> I'll just say that thinking we can get back to the same way it was in Adam's Garden, is like thinking you can go back to being a virgin again. lol.:nono:
> Or if you will, like a broken marriage. Think of Jesus as the marriage counselor. You just can't crawl right back in the bed and even if you stay together, it's going to take more than some flowers before things will be set right again.
> ...



I agree. But if we are doing our part then we should see continued improvement in the relationship. What I got was three more holes in the water heater I'm trying to keep alive, refrigerator that quit and rescued to life for how long?. That was the small stuff

Here is a question for you.
The perfect one calls to you , the imperfect, and wants a relationship
You say yes. make the agreement, You as the imperfect do your best to do whatever you can do in your imperfectness to keep the relationship Study, Seek, whatever
Who then is responsible for the results of the relationship. How can an imperfect person be responsible for a relation with perfectness

One of the hardest things I have had is to watch Obama call to people for relationship and make promises how he cares and wants to take care of them. And when anything goes wrong he blames Bush.
It hit me hard that we have an invisible unproven doing the same thing and blames the bad on some other supposed entity.
I realize its and earthly comparison but I live here in this reality now.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

For those of you who have complained that you have gone through the motions and have given up because God has never been real to you, maybe you have never heard the true gospel. If you want to know what the Bible teaches about having a living relationship with God, I urge you not to give up in despair. Read John Blanchard's short booklet which is available online. It's very well done. 
http://www.the-highway.com/ultimate_questions.html

Also, for those who are already Christians, the book _Knowing God_ by J. I. Packer is a classic. It's a wonderful and helpful book. You can read an excerpt on Amazon. He says in the preface of the Kindle edition that when he originally wrote the book it was published as a series of articles. The 'ideal reader' he had in mind while writing was a person impatient with religiosity but who wanted to know God. He calls his book a book for travelers and in his book he seeks to deal with the questions that travelers encounter.
http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-God-J...2733&sr=8-1&keywords=J.+I.+Packer+Knowing+God


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## Mulegirl (Oct 6, 2010)

Farmrbrown, it was nice to see you coming in up there at the top of p. 5--there was a lot of judgment coming through, it seemed, and I could completely understand why TNHermit was getting rather ticked off. Being frustrated and irritated because life just keeps going off in weird, difficult directions that you've tried to prevent is perfectly understandable, and to try and blaming the questioning that brings on the questioner being "too demanding" is really unfair. Being Job is not something most of us can do, much as we might want to try. And there is nothing wrong with questioning--better to question and test the faith and possibly come back than to never question at all. 

TNHermit, not everyone who believes in God sees the relationship as "talks to me all the time" personal. For me, that statement is more metaphorical, in that the whole idea of Christ's death on the cross was done for me as much as for anyone else--we are all special to God, but no one is more special than anyone else (and thankfully God being omniscent keeps that from being a problem  ). I am a Liturgical Christian, raised Lutheran, had an education that looked quite closely at early and medieval Christianity and the Reformation, and have since trained to be a certified church musician. I believe in God, I have faith, but I do not ask for proof, and I do not ask for direct action on my or others' behalf. Instead, I do my best to behave as it seems that God would want me to, basing behavior on the New Covenant and the idea that what we should strive for, above all, is to learn how to love one another and act in loving ways while we're still in the world. Sometimes it will be hard to keep that kind of more open and positive orientation, but that's when faith that doing that is right will help to carry you through. And, honestly, I don't see any direct action from fallen angels in my life, either--my failings are my own, not something thrust on me from "Satan." If I fall down and act mean, or don't help out when I know it's needed and I should help out, that's not "Satan" tempting me--that's me not living up to what I know I ought to be doing. And sometimes, in spite of my best efforts, everything falls apart, but that's just life . . . it's just how things happen in a world where I am not the center of everything--my needs don't dictate what goes on, and sometimes I get caught up in and messed up by the plans and desires of others.

But, as I said, I don't claim to have a "personal" relationship with God the way many people seem to understand it. I don't believe that we live in a time of prophecy; we live in a time where what is needed is faith and love and patience even when we aren't being reassured that what we're doing is what's absolutely right.

And Chewie . . . I really don't know what to say, other than I am incredibly, incredibly sorry. We lost my father very unexpectedly about 14 years ago, but I know the loss I felt then would not hold a candle to what it would be like to lose my son (or even his not-quite-born little brother, something I try not to think about in the final weeks of pregnancy). It seems like sometimes horrible, unexpected things just happen, and there's no way to explain why. I am so sorry about your loss.


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## rharper (Feb 4, 2013)

I couldn't figure out how to title this post, given everything that's been pinned to this board already, but I do have a couple of cents to throw in.

TNHermit:

I've asked your question (the first one) many times, starting back when I was a kid, going to an evangelical church with the neighbors (my family are not churchgoing folk). I never had that personal relationship. I pretended I did, and was baptized based on my testimony, but it wasn't true. I never had that moment, that connection, that personal touch ... and I was ashamed to admit it. So I lied, and I built a testimony according to the script I'd heard before and presented myself to the church, and was accepted and baptized. Based on a lie that I ultimately could not maintain. Looking back, I see it as one of the more shameful moments of my life--not because I faked it, exactly, but because I played a game I didn't believe because I was afraid, and I thought if I pretended enough, I might believe, and it would all be okay. 

It turns out, looking back, that I believed in Hell ... not God.

Many years later, I became immersed in early Christian theology, as an academic. I learned much about how the Church developed in the early days, and how it worked before the Reformation, and even how things began to fragment after. In the process, I discovered a few things about faith, and about myself.

First, I learned that the notion of that personal relationship with God is (as noted above) relatively new. For the majority of Christian history, most people had a much more distanced relationship with the Divine (with the exception of prophets, of course, who were always pretty rare one the ground). This opened up a whole new world to me, because it suggested that faith could be based on, well, faith, rather than some demonstration of direct connection to the divine, tailored to the person. Faith requires no proof, and is not evidence-based--if you have that evidence, then it isn't actually faith, but fact. This may sound very trite, but I came from a somewhat isolated background where "interfaith" meant a picnic involving both Missionary Baptists and Southern Baptists. (There were, in theory, other faith groups, but the Mormons kept to themselves and the Catholics mostly spoke Spanish).

Second, as this world opened to me I began to realize that God is a lot smarter than me, and I'm not capable of "getting it" ... and not only am I not capable of getting it, but it would be prideful and presumptuous to imagine that I can. Anybody that tells you what God "wants" or "intends" or "means" or whatever is either infinitely smarter than me (not likely, given the scale we're working with), or is merely ascribing their own interpretation of events to "God" ... which means that any attempt to know God is destined for failure, because we are not able to comprehend the Divine in the first place--on that count, we're hunting elephants with a .22 pistol. 

So, God doesn't talk to me, and I suspect my mind would explode if such an event ever occurred. So what do I have? I have faith that the Christian mode of life (New Testament, not Old Testament) is worth living, regardless of the eternal rewards or punishments bandied about in Church. This is NOT faith in the basic tenets of Christianity, by the way--I still can't honestly recite the Nicene Creed in Church (and yes, I do occasionally go to Lutheran/Episcopalian services). This is faith that trying to help others when you can will make the world we live in a better place, and that making that world a better place will make life better for all of us. This isn't just Hippie -------- either--sometimes life sucks, and there is no payoff. You can create a lesson if you try hard enough, but that's your lookout. For all I know, my misfortunes (and I've not had that many, really) are part of God's plan in some way that I will never comprehend or appreciate, or see any "payoff" from. So it goes. 

I accept that I can't comprehend or really engage with the Divine--I'm not smart enough, or crazy enough, to pull that off. If there is a Hell, I certainly may end up there. In fact, I think that's probably the best way to go--you do the "right thing" (starting with the Sermon on the Mount) because it's the right thing to do--and if the hard-liners are right and you end up in Hell anyway, well so be it. It won't fix your water heater, of course ... but who are we to question the Divine plan, right?

Sorry about the rant ... I think folks on this thread have been generally unfair to you and your question, and I wanted to show a little support for doubt.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

TNHermit said:


> I agree. But if we are doing our part then we should see continued improvement in the relationship. What I got was three more holes in the water heater I'm trying to keep alive, refrigerator that quit and rescued to life for how long?. That was the small stuff
> 
> Here is a question for you.
> The perfect one calls to you , the imperfect, and wants a relationship
> ...


Hermit,


Just curious, does "the agreement" you mentioned with God include repenting of your sins and trusting in Christ as your Lord and Savior?


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Sonshine said:


> but in reality, if that person was a Christian, then they have recieved the ulitmate blessing, they are in Heaven.



AND even if they were not a christian, they are in heaven.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

rharper said:


> I couldn't figure out how to title this post, given everything that's been pinned to this board already, but I do have a couple of cents to throw in.
> 
> TNHermit:
> 
> ...


I would love to spend about 6 months in a round table with you,the farmer and some others on here. Questions and opinions just beget Questions and opinions. I will disagree and say it if is not possible to know the divine on some level we have no hope. Also as I speak of hope I speak of a plan not a feeling. I build houses on hope and by faith (there is nothing there as I start but the hope) but as I continue by faith a form and structure comes to life. That structure should come to life in a personal way for anyone who builds in the spiritual world.

Also my study of early Christianity proved immensely disappointing to see the politics and seven deadly sins work their way through it.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

bilge doulbe post grrr!


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

The best 'advice' I know to give anyone who seeks to understand and have a personal relationship w/ God is to go directly to the Source.

1 John 2:27
_But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true--it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ._

We can never 'know' God w/ our minds because the mind is of the flesh. It can be deceived. It can doubt. But the Spirit is precisely what connects us to God. It is through the Spirit that we commune w/ Him, hear Him, love Him.

'Knowing' God in the Spirit (having that personal relationship) is how we're able to love Him in spite of the bad things that happen in this life, and continue to put our trust and hope in Him, His will and our eternal life w/ Him.

Christ came to teach us the 'how-to' part. He taught us what the relationship was (Father and child), how to pray/commune, how to keep the relationship strong, etc.


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## rharper (Feb 4, 2013)

TNHermit said:


> I would love to spend about 6 months in a round table with you,the farmer and some others on here. Questions and opinions just beget Questions and opinions. I will disagree and say it if is not possible to know the divine on some level we have no hope. Also as I speak of hope I speak of a plan not a feeling. I build houses on hope and by faith (there is nothing there as I start but the hope) but as I continue by faith a form and structure comes to life. That structure should come to life in a personal way for anyone who builds in the spiritual world.
> 
> Also my study of early Christianity proved immensely disappointing to see the politics and seven deadly sins work their way through it.



Yup ... as I often have to point out to my students, folks in the Middle Ages (or earlier, but I happen to teach medieval literature) weren't somehow different in any fundamental way. They were people, no better or worse, dumber or smarter, than we are (they had fewer gadgets, and less of what we call "learning" perhaps ... but that's not the same thing).

Thus, the "Church" as a structure was, as it is and has always has been, a human structure (or structures, given denominational divides), organized and maintained by people, and thus heir to the flaws of humanity.

Learning about the older stuff didn't open my eyes to anything fundamentally better--rather it showed me that there were other ways to approach God than the charismatic/evangelical born-again personal relationship which so dominated my early religious experiences.

I kind of like the seven deadlies, myself ... and their paired virtues as well (why is it the sins get all the attention?). 

As for knowing the Divine, I expect that's a different thing than understanding the Divine, or communicating with the Divine. I may have phrased it poorly in my initial post ...

As for God's plan, well, that falls under the heading of understanding, and I just don't. That doesn't mean I have no hope--in fact, hope, like faith, is a functional response to uncertainty, and can't actually co-exist with certainty or understanding. Basically, if I know and understand God's plan, then I don't need hope, just as if God proves his existence by direct engagement in my own life, I don't need faith. Just as bravery is rooted in fear (if you aren't afraid, then you can't be brave), faith and hope are rooted in uncertainty.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

rharper said:


> Yup ... as I often have to point out to my students, folks in the Middle Ages (or earlier, but I happen to teach medieval literature) weren't somehow different in any fundamental way. They were people, no better or worse, dumber or smarter, than we are (they had fewer gadgets, and less of what we call "learning" perhaps ... but that's not the same thing).
> 
> Thus, the "Church" as a structure was, as it is and has always has been, a human structure (or structures, given denominational divides), organized and maintained by people, and thus heir to the flaws of humanity.
> 
> ...


The best book I ever got among the bunch I have is this one

http://www.amazon.com/Making-Living-Middle-Ages-850-1520/dp/0300101910

It kinda confirmed what I had suspected. People back then were a lot more "common" smart (Can I say that  ) They knew about forestry,ecology,garden and such as well or better than we do now. And Actually except for the toys we have not that much different. 

If you consider the building and architecture of the time,music, literature and give some credit to the Muslims in Spain for the math and other sciences (what has happened to them) . Even the freedoms we enjoy to day were rooted and coming of age back then. Even if slowly. 

Why do we call it the dark ages
Is it just because of the brutality of the kingdoms,clans and churches. Everyone of the major religions were extremely evil and brutal just pick your time period.
If you look at the world and brutality now I think we are entering the same kind of time. Except we are determined to destroy what they advanced. We've pretty much been on a down hill run since the beginning of the 20th century and escalating since the arriving on the moon.


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Sometimes, there truly are none so blind as those that will (meaning choose freely) not believe.

Sort of like the little kid with cable and the net and a few hundred toys and plenty of friends that slumps on the couch complaining there is nothing to do.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

nodak3 said:


> Sometimes, there truly are none so blind as those that will (meaning choose freely) not believe.
> 
> Sort of like the little kid with cable and the net and a few hundred toys and plenty of friends that slumps on the couch complaining there is nothing to do.


And so it is and so is it with people who make their own definition of belief to be true


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

TNHermit

Today is a joyful day. 

Do something good for someone else, even if it is a kind word. It is a genuine desire that you have, to feel a reason for having been born, and to understand where you Spirit will travel when you lie on the ground for the last time. It is easy to understand those that are unwavering in their answer to those questions. What I don't understand is those who would try to ridicule you for not rowing their boat, in their steady course. 

We are all on a journey, from the cradle to the grave. Those who feel they have traveled far enough to answer all of their questions, and have no need to seek any more, may well be on the path behind you.

Christians, Muslims, Jews, Pagans, and members of all other Belief or NON- Belief systems ... Americans, Russians, North Koreans, Chinese, OPEC, Crusaders, Terrorists, Hippies, Abortionists, Pro-Lifers and all others who delight in physical and verbal conflicts with those who think differently from them...are all carbon based - flesh and blood, and will become lifeless flesh in the end. The big difference to me is how one truly feels about the others that share planet earth. 

The teachings and parables of the man named JESUS are to me, the most telling parts of the Bible.

The parable of the Workers in the Vineyard is one of my favorites. 

*See you at quitting time!*For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
&#8212; Matthew 20:1&#8211;16, King James Version
​ ​


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## rharper (Feb 4, 2013)

TNHermit said:


> The best book I ever got among the bunch I have is this one
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Making-Living-Middle-Ages-850-1520/dp/0300101910
> 
> ...


Oh, I wish my students understood this ...

The "Dark Ages" is probably the biggest misnomer I've yet to come across. The "light" of Roman government and philosophy and such didn't build a guy's house or plant his fields, so while the fall of Rome was quite sociopolitically significant, it really didn't have the kind of impact on the average Joe that so many like to imagine. People knew their land, and knew what to do with it, and made do with what they had. Life was often politically unstable, but that's not unique to the Middle Ages.

Times were certainly tougher, and people were dirtier, and they lived shorter lives, and they all pooped in holes--but I can say the same thing about my great-grandparents and their immediate predecessors. Sometimes we forget how recent so many of our "necessities" are.

And yes ... the Magna Carta (1215) is the English historical document that probably has the most in common with (and laid the conceptual groundwork for) our own Declaration of Independence.

Dark Ages indeed.

But enough ranting ... I'm getting off track.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

rharper said:


> Oh, I wish my students understood this ...
> 
> The "Dark Ages" is probably the biggest misnomer I've yet to come across. The "light" of Roman government and philosophy and such didn't build a guy's house or plant his fields, so while the fall of Rome was quite sociopolitically significant, it really didn't have the kind of impact on the average Joe that so many like to imagine. People knew their land, and knew what to do with it, and made do with what they had. Life was often politically unstable, but that's not unique to the Middle Ages.
> 
> ...


Well I would loved to have any more of your take on things. I've pretty much had nobody but my self to talk about this with and go with my gut


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

................It always amazes me how the Catholic church could justify burning Non believers at the stake so as to scare anyone or everyone to accept the POPE as THE Potentate Numero Uno ! , fordy:shrug:


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## rharper (Feb 4, 2013)

fordy said:


> ................It always amazes me how the Catholic church could justify burning Non believers at the stake so as to scare anyone or everyone to accept the POPE as THE Potentate Numero Uno ! , fordy:shrug:


That really wasn't much of a medieval thing, actually. It did happen, but it was pretty rare on the ground.

Or were you referring to the Renaissance and later, when Catholics and Protestant _both_ liked them a good burning? (Keep in mind that the "heresy" issue was much more common after Luther, when alternative forms of Christianity became more widespread in Europe).

Burning at the stake was a more commonly acknowledged (and less commonly used) punishment than most folks realize--and it was used for plenty of civil offenses, not just heresy (and not just for heresy by Catholics--the protestant Church of England lit a fire or two, and the Puritan "witch" burnings were essentially punishments for supposed heresy).

People can be cruel, and faith communities can be very unfriendly to dissenters--no denomination has a lock on this one.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

> People can be cruel, and faith communities can be very unfriendly to dissenters--no denomination has a lock on this one.


That is why I won't join a religion. No where does God tell his new people, THE CHURCH (not to be confused with the catholic church, which is just another religion) to harm others for God.

We are in fact to be harmless. Strong in our Faith but showing it by doing good. Speaking the word and if it is not accepted, walking away with no harm done.


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## joebill (Mar 2, 2013)

There has been a lot said about a personal relationship, and perhaps in some cases too much, because it brings on animosity and bad feelings. To some it sounds like "name dropping", which is not a good thing. Here's my take, for what it's worth.

A "formal relationship with God" means one attends services, memorises and utters prayers on cue, can quote scripture to prove any point one desires, right or wrong. Many believe that this is all God has to offer, and I daresay for those who believe it, that's true.

A "personal relationship with God" does not mean I go bowling with Him or trust Him to vanquish my enemies or make my life perfect. It means that He is a very real and vital part of my life. He doesn't tell me jokes like my friends do, but He SHOWS me jokes, often, as I get older and uglier, in my own mirror. he invites me, daily, to look at his living collection of art, which is right outside my window. 

It's been said, and I can't disagree, that the voice of Celine Dion is ample proof of the existance and love of God. We can't choose which blessings he showers on us, but have to recognise those he chooses FOR us.

I didn't have much going for me as a child, and had little hope of having a truly happy life, so the everyday blessings that come along make me feel truly blessed, and THAT is a gift beyond belief. That I am able to fullfill my desires to create worthwhile things and live my life as I see fit instead of being a serf in a poverty stricken hellhole makes me try to be worthy of my blessings, which can never happen, but the world is better for my trying.

The majority of my life is already behind me, and from this point the pain and clumsiness and forgetfulness will only increase, but what a ride I have already enjoyed! AND, as my phisical self dwindles, my spiritual self expands. The idea that God "owes me something" and has failed to deliver is silly and never crosses my mind. I only wish that my mortal self could percieve everything he has done for me, of which I am almost totally ignorant.

I, for one, do not "hear" the voice of God. I see it in nature and the way my life is protected from the evil all men seek in their natural state. In the matters i had decided to take into my own hands at the risk of my soul, which were attended to without that being required, and a thousand other things i can't describe.

I hope, somehow, this helps, but if not, give it time. He comes in His own good time to those who wait and pay attention......Joe


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

Joebill:

That is the most sincere, unassuming, gentile witness I have ever heard.

You are so right - as the physical self dwindles, manybtimes the spiritual self increases.


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## michelleIL (Aug 29, 2004)

God doesn't give His kids everything they want. The Bible is truly God's love letter to us. Sometimes I find it boring and tedious, but I persist, because the cool parts actually outweigh the tedious parts. He even "cusses" and says "----" in there! He talks about crude stuff like whores, and murder, bloodshed. He's a pretty cool dude in those respects. He is frank in the Song of Solomon about the wonders of sexual union between man and wife. How cool is that??? He is truly a DAD to us, cuz how many DADS have sat their sons down and had that talk. God isn't afraid of the yucky subject matter, because quite frankly He MADe that for us to enjoy. If someone was fat like Eglon, He said they were FAT. He didn't try to be politically correct. He had stuff in place then for he provision of women, so they weren't exploited, but of course humans screwed that all up! I truly love God. He has been there for me when I wouldn't take the time to be there for Him. I get busy and He doesn't leave, but he certainly isn't near as close, cuz I walk away and start letting things of this life get in between He and I. I'm not the best friend a person can ask for, but God is my friend who sticks closer than a brother! I don't expect Him to meet my wants, cuz sometimes my wants ain't quite right, but my needs are truly met. It is truly a personal relationship, but you have to put in the time. He will speak if you take the time to listen. And you will truly know it is Him speaking. Not audible, but you will indeed know.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

ErinP said:


> I think people get a little confused on the whole personal relationship thing, myself.
> It's not like God is speaking to you like a voice from the heavens. By studying and knowing His Word, we can know Him better. And those feelings and ideas that we think are from God are easily tested. Do they contradict the Bible? If yes, then it's obviously not from God.
> If no, then it might be.
> 
> But God "speaks" to us via Scripture that we have come to know, gives us peace when we're hurting or stressed, and offers guidance when we're seeking Him. That's personal in my world...


I don't physically hear Gods voice speaking to me but sometimes it just hits me between the eyes. Wow! ok I get it now kinda thing.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

TNHermit said:


> Well Ive read all the answers and I agree with a lot of it. At the same time I can tell you I have done all the same things that you have. But it doesn't and has never worked.


I know this is an old thread, but I really want to answer this.

I did everything for a long time, read scripture, prayed, went to Church.
My prayers were always that I wanted to know if He existed, if what I was being taught was correct and I never got an answer. It was frustrating and I about gave up, then someone asked me what I would do if God did satisfy my intellectual curiosity and that question really gave me something to think about.

Finally I changed my prayers from wanting to know, to being willing to do what He wanted me to, but He had to let me know. I got my answer in about a week, and it was a pretty clear one. When describing it I call it my "spiritual 2x4 to the head" as, like that stubborn mule in the folk tales, I needed a pretty good wake up call to get my attention.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

mnn2501 said:


> I know this is an old thread, but I really want to answer this.
> 
> I did everything for a long time, read scripture, prayed, went to Church.
> My prayers were always that I wanted to know if He existed, if what I was being taught was correct and I never got an answer. It was frustrating and I about gave up, then someone asked me what I would do if God did satisfy my intellectual curiosity and that question really gave me something to think about.
> ...


Maybe I need a bigger 2x4 but for me both questions are one in the same.

I look at it like a job to do. Your hired on instead of the boss in person you get a "manual" like we did on the road at the mall stores. As time goes by despite going by the manual things don't come out right. You wonder where is the problem. Somebody may give you some ideas but no answers come from "central" you call ,write and nothing comes back. you then question if anyone is at home.
For them to identify themselves lets you focus your questions and trust the answers. Maybe things are suppose to be different and you didn't get the note. What ever

Add to that that I 'm pretty down to earth. And all this hocus pocus , cat and mouse. His ways are higher than yours., You never know what he is going to do is an anathema to a personal relationship of any kind. NO earthly reltionship would last long at all unless the person was mindless follower. And when you think about it that is the same kind of relationship that Obama puts forward.

And there is scripture where it say to ask and to prove me.(him, it whatever)

Looking at what is going on currently I see somebody looking out for everyone but the average hard working guy (so to speak) and in my world that was/is what the relationship was suppose to be about. He may have all the time in the world to do something I don't, especially considering current events in my life.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

*Listening to Young Atheists: Lessons for a Stronger Christianity*

When a Christian foundation interviewed college nonbelievers about how and why they left religion, surprising themes emerged. 
Larry Alex TauntonJun 6 2013, 8:07 AM ET

"Church became all about ceremony, handholding, and kumbaya," Phil said with a look of disgust. "I missed my old youth pastor. He actually knew the Bible." 


I have known a lot of atheists. The late Christopher Hitchens was a friend with whom I debated, road tripped, and even had a lengthy private Bible study. I have moderated Richard Dawkins and, on occasion, clashed with him. And I have listened for hours to the (often unsettling) arguments of Peter Singer and a whole host of others like him. These men are some of the public faces of the so-called "New Atheism," and when Christians think about the subject -- if they think about it at all -- it is this sort of atheist who comes to mind: men whose unbelief is, as Dawkins once proudly put it, "militant." But Phil, the atheist college student who had come to my office to share his story, was of an altogether different sort. 
Phil was in my office as part of a project that began last year. Over the course of my career, I have met many students like Phil. It has been my privilege to address college students all over the world, usually as one defending the Christian worldview. These events typically attract large numbers of atheists. I like that. I find talking to people who disagree with me much more stimulating than those gatherings that feel a bit too much like a political party convention, and the exchanges with these students are mostly thoughtful and respectful. At some point, I like to ask them a sincere question: 
_What led you to become an atheist?_ 
Given that the New Atheism fashions itself as a movement that is ruthlessly scientific, it should come as no surprise that those answering my question usually attribute the decision to the purely rational and objective: one invokes his understanding of science; another says it was her exploration of the claims of this or that religion; and still others will say that religious beliefs are illogical, and so on. To hear them tell it, the choice was made from a philosophically neutral position that was void of emotion. 
"I really can't consider a Christian a good, moral person if he isn't trying to convert me." Christianity, when it is taken seriously, compels its adherents to engage the world, not retreat from it. There are a multitude of reasons for this mandate, ranging from care for the poor, orphaned, and widowed to offering hope to the hopeless. This means that Christians must be willing to listen to other perspectives while testing their own beliefs against them -- above all, as the apostle Peter tells us, "with gentleness and respect." The non-profit I direct, Fixed Point Foundation, endeavors to bridge the gaps between various factions (both religious and irreligious) as gently and respectfully as possible. Atheists particularly fascinate me. Perhaps it's because I consider their philosophy -- if the absence of belief may be called a philosophy -- historically naive and potentially dangerous. Or maybe it's because they, like any good Christian, take the Big Questions seriously. But it was how they processed those questions that intrigued me. 
To gain some insight, we launched a nationwide campaign to interview college students who are members of Secular Student Alliances (SSA) or Freethought Societies (FS). These college groups are the atheist equivalents to Campus Crusade: They meet regularly for fellowship, encourage one another in their (un)belief, and even proselytize. They are people who are not merely irreligious; they are actively, determinedly irreligious. 
Using the Fixed Point Foundation website, email, my Twitter, and my Facebook page, we contacted the leaders of these groups and asked if they and their fellow members would participate in our study. To our surprise, we received a flood of enquiries. Students ranging from Stanford University to the University of Alabama-Birmingham, from Northwestern to Portland State volunteered to talk to us. The rules were simple: _Tell us your journey to unbelief_. It was not our purpose to dispute their stories or to debate the merits of their views. Not then, anyway. We just wanted to listen to what they had to say. And what they had to say startled us. 
This brings me back to Phil. 
A smart, likable young man, he sat down nervously as my staff put a plate of food before him. Like others after him, he suspected a trap. Was he being punk'd? Talking to us required courage of all of these students, Phil most of all since he was the first to do so. Once he realized, however, that we truly meant him no harm, he started talking -- and for three hours we listened. 
Now the president of his campus's SSA, Phil was once the president of his Methodist church's youth group. He loved his church ("they weren't just going through the motions"), his pastor ("a rock star trapped in a pastor's body"), and, most of all, his youth leader, Jim ("a passionate man"). Jim's Bible studies were particularly meaningful to him. He admired the fact that Jim didn't dodge the tough chapters or the tough questions: "He didn't always have satisfying answers or answers at all, but he didn't run away from the questions either. The way he taught the Bible made me feel smart." 
Listening to his story I had to remind myself that Phil was an atheist, not a seminary student recalling those who had inspired him to enter the pastorate. As the narrative developed, however, it became clear where things came apart for Phil. During his junior year of high school, the church, in an effort to attract more young people, wanted Jim to teach less and play more. Difference of opinion over this new strategy led to Jim's dismissal. He was replaced by Savannah, an attractive twenty-something who, according to Phil, "didn't know a thing about the Bible." The church got what it wanted: the youth group grew. But it lost Phil. 
An hour deeper into our conversation I asked, "When did you begin to think of yourself as an atheist?" 
He thought for a moment. "I would say by the end of my junior year." 
I checked my notes. "Wasn't that about the time that your church fired Jim?" 
He seemed surprised by the connection. "Yeah, I guess it was." 
Phil's story, while unique in its parts, was on the whole typical of the stories we would hear from students across the country. Slowly, a composite sketch of American college-aged atheists began to emerge and it would challenge all that we thought we knew about this demographic. Here is what we learned:
*They had attended church*
Most of our participants had not chosen their worldview from ideologically neutral positions at all, but _in reaction_ to Christianity. Not Islam. Not Buddhism. Christianity. 
*The mission and message of their churches was vague* 
These students heard plenty of messages encouraging "social justice," community involvement, and "being good," but they seldom saw the relationship between that message, Jesus Christ, and the Bible. Listen to Stephanie, a student at Northwestern: "The connection between Jesus and a person's life was not clear." This is an incisive critique. She seems to have intuitively understood that the church does not exist simply to address social ills, but to proclaim the teachings of its founder, Jesus Christ, and their relevance to the world. Since Stephanie did not see that connection, she saw little incentive to stay. We would hear this again.
*They felt their churches offered superficial answers to life's difficult questions*
When our participants were asked what they found unconvincing about the Christian faith, they spoke of evolution vs. creation, sexuality, the reliability of the biblical text, Jesus as the only way, etc. Some had gone to church hoping to find answers to these questions. Others hoped to find answers to questions of personal significance, purpose, and ethics. Serious-minded, they often concluded that church services were largely shallow, harmless, and ultimately irrelevant. As Ben, an engineering major at the University of Texas, so bluntly put it: "I really started to get bored with church."
*They expressed their respect for those ministers who took the Bible seriously*
Following our 2010 debate in Billings, Montana, I asked Christopher Hitchens why he didn't try to savage me on stage the way he had so many others. His reply was immediate and emphatic: "Because you believe it." Without fail, our former church-attending students expressed similar feelings for those Christians who unashamedly embraced biblical teaching. Michael, a political science major at Dartmouth, told us that he is drawn to Christians like that, adding: "I really can't consider a Christian a good, moral person if he isn't trying to convert me." As surprising as it may seem, this sentiment is not as unusual as you might think. It finds resonance in the [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhG-tkQ_Q2w"]well-publicized comments[/ame] of Penn Jillette, the atheist illusionist and comedian: "I don't respect people who don't proselytize. I don't respect that at all. If you believe that there's a heaven and hell and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life or whatever, and you think that it's not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward.... How much do you have to hate somebody to believe that everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?" Comments like these should cause every Christian to examine his conscience to see if he truly believes that Jesus is, as he claimed, "the way, the truth, and the life."
*Ages 14-17 were decisive*
One participant told us that she considered herself to be an atheist by the age of eight while another said that it was during his sophomore year of college that he de-converted, but these were the outliers. For most, the high school years were the time when they embraced unbelief.
*The decision to embrace unbelief was often an emotional one*
With few exceptions, students would begin by telling us that they had become atheists for exclusively rational reasons. But as we listened it became clear that, for most, this was a deeply emotional transition as well. This phenomenon was most powerfully exhibited in Meredith. She explained in detail how her study of anthropology had led her to atheism. When the conversation turned to her family, however, she spoke of an emotionally abusive father: 
"It was when he died that I became an atheist," she said. 
I could see no obvious connection between her father's death and her unbelief. Was it because she loved her abusive father -- abused children often do love their parents -- and she was angry with God for his death? "No," Meredith explained. "I was terrified by the thought that he could still be alive somewhere." 
Rebecca, now a student at Clark University in Boston, bore similar childhood scars. When the state intervened and removed her from her home (her mother had attempted suicide), Rebecca prayed that God would let her return to her family. "He didn't answer," she said. "So I figured he must not be real." After a moment's reflection, she appended her remarks: "Either that, or maybe he is [real] and he's just trying to teach me something."
*The internet factored heavily into their conversion to atheism*
When our participants were asked to cite key influences in their conversion to atheism--people, books, seminars, etc. -- we expected to hear frequent references to the names of the "New Atheists." We did not. Not once. Instead, we heard vague references to videos they had watched on YouTube or website forums. 
***​Religion is a sensitive topic, and a study like this is bound to draw critics. To begin with, there is, of course, another side to this story. Some Christians will object that our study was tilted against churches because they were given no chance to defend themselves. They might justifiably ask to what extent these students really engaged with their Bibles, their churches, and the Christians around them. But that is beside the point. If churches are to reach this growing element of American collegiate life, they must first understand who these people are, and that means listening to them. 
Perhaps the most surprising aspect of this whole study was the lasting impression many of these discussions made upon us.
That these students were, above all else, idealists who longed for authenticity, and having failed to find it in their churches, they settled for a non-belief that, while less grand in its promises, felt more genuine and attainable. I again quote Michael: "Christianity is something that if you _really_ believed it, it would change your life and you would want to change [the lives] of others. I haven't seen too much of that." 
Sincerity does not trump truth. After all, one can be sincerely wrong. But sincerity is indispensable to any truth we wish others to believe. There is something winsome, even irresistible, about a life lived with conviction. I am reminded of the Scottish philosopher and skeptic, David Hume, who was recognized among a crowd of those listening to the preaching of George Whitefield, the famed evangelist of the First Great Awakening: 
"I thought you didn't believe in the Gospel," someone asked. 
"I do not," Hume replied. Then, with a nod toward Whitefield, he added, "_But he does_."


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Sure makes you wonder as a Christian if we are failing our young people.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

I don't believe God is akin to the big genie that sits above the Earth and hands out wishes and punishments the way so many people make him out to be. I believe that he is a merciful but just, loving but reproving, and quiet but firm Father in Heaven. He doesn't yell at us very often. He talks quietly, via the Holy Ghost, in a still, small voice. We have to listen to hear him. We have to study, ponder and pray. We have to ask questions and we have to be open for the answers. Asking questions doesn't mean a lack of faith, but rather a desire to know. I believe that the answers do come, however, its not always when/what we want. I also think sometimes I miss what he's telling me, or I ignore it, consciously or otherwise. I do believe God talks to us still. I have seen proof of this in my own life. I also believe in agency. We have the agency to believe or not believe. Luckily, nobody else has to answer to anyone else's choices. That's a personal, private issue between us and our maker. 

A lot of people say that I believe out of fear. That's laughable! I don't fear death. If there's nothing after death, I'll never know. There's nothing to be afraid of. If there is something else, after death, then there is still nothing to fear as long as we can each, individually, say we did our best with what we had (money, knowledge, time, talents, etc.) No, I don't believe out of fear. I believe because I've been agnostic in my life, and things happened that led me to believe, and that belief led to faith. But it took some work on my part.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

As I tell folks on why I believe.
If I believe and men think me a fool and they are right there is nothing when I die, I will be dead and I won't care.
However if I am right and there is a just God who desires my faith and belief, when I die I still will not care what men thought of me. However if I deny my God, I will care very much when he says I was with you why did you leave me?


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

TNHermit said:


> Maybe I need a bigger 2x4 but for me both questions are one in the same.


 Not even close - from personal experience.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

mnn2501 said:


> Not even close - from personal experience.


Well i can tell you that fro me it was just as I said based on personal experience. I dealt with a lot of bosses I never meant. But their credibility was backed up by others.

Here is the deal. Was thinking last night. If you have never heard from this guy and you want to be part of it what do you do when the call to war comes. (And it will soon happen in this country and hopefully is going on now as the curch is way behind the curve when it comes to fighting the current facist outfit) Who are you going to follow having never heard or had communication with him. Which minister, friend or other are you going to believe.
The only other thing is that it is said that "My sheep know my voice" And conclude that you are hated by him as your efforts have gone unrecognized. And that he picks and chooses who he loves. Which of course makes it all a lie


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

joebill said:


> I didn't have much going for me as a child, and had little hope of having a truly happy life, so the everyday blessings that come along make me feel truly blessed, and THAT is a gift beyond belief. That I am able to fullfill my desires to create worthwhile things and live my life as I see fit....
> The idea that God "owes me something" and has failed to deliver is silly and never crosses my mind. I only wish that my mortal self could percieve everything he has done for me, of which I am almost totally ignorant.
> I, for one, do not "hear" the voice of God. I see it in nature....
> He comes in His own good time to those who wait and pay attention......Joe


 

This IS me. 
I was brought up in A church. It WAS all about fear. I was told EVERYDAY that I was going to hell because I didn't do what I was told to do to BE Gods child. I left it all behind, God and family. All I had was the hope that someday I would understand. I didn't even learn from my first brush with death. It was the second time that I saw the light (literally). 

God has allowed me these days. Not that I deserve them but that I have been given them, to live/learn and be grateful for each one. I don't ask for anything, I thank God each day for ALL my blessings. I walk with God because I couldn't/wouldn't be here without HIS support EACH AND EVERY DAY

I have seen heaven. 3 times I have died....But because of him I am still here. It was not MY time. He has a plan for me. I am 57 and still don't know what it is. I am weak but HE gives me strength.

....James


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

TNHermit said:


> And that he picks and chooses who he loves. Which of course makes it all a lie


People who say that pick and choose what they want to believe, they ignore when scripture says "God is no respecter of persons" meaning he has no favorites.

The problem is many modern Christians in America think the English language Bible was directly transcribed by God and its perfect and inerrant not understanding that its been through many translations and translation is not a precise science, especially when you transcribe idea's from a culture 2000 and more years ago.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

mnn2501 said:


> People who say that pick and choose what they want to believe, they ignore when scripture says "God is no respecter of persons" meaning he has no favorites.
> 
> The problem is many modern Christians in America think the English language Bible was directly transcribed by God and its perfect and inerrant not understanding that its been through many translations and translation is not a precise science, especially when you transcribe idea's from a culture 2000 and more years ago.


All the more reason that god as the perfect one needs to reveal himself without question to each imperfect person who *"seeks"* to hear his vocie and be at peace with what his spirit discerns


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

TNHermit said:


> Well i can tell you that fro me it was just as I said based on personal experience. I dealt with a lot of bosses I never meant. But their credibility was backed up by others.
> 
> Here is the deal. Was thinking last night. If you have never heard from this guy and you want to be part of it what do you do when the call to war comes. (And it will soon happen in this country and hopefully is going on now as the curch is way behind the curve when it comes to fighting the current facist outfit) Who are you going to follow having never heard or had communication with him. Which minister, friend or other are you going to believe.
> The only other thing is that it is said that "My sheep know my voice" And conclude that you are hated by him as your efforts have gone unrecognized. And that he picks and chooses who he loves. Which of course makes it all a lie


In regards to what happens in this country, I can only say that we, as a nation, have turned away from Him.......and it may be that He is turning away from us for a time, meaning that we're going to have to go through some difficult times for awhile. I will tell you that I've had the same thoughts as you, wondering who will be His voice, and so far, I've not seen the answer....which leads me to believe (at this point) that we're being left to 'wander' for a time.

That is not to say that He will turn away from His children, individually. I believe that He hears my voice and that He still guides and protects me on a daily basis. And so I continue to trust Him, that what is happening in the world is according to His will and that I should not be afraid. That's the only thing I can do right now.

You've said repeatedly that you're 'down to earth', (meaning, I presume, a simple man) as if that is a hindrance somehow. But that's exactly the sort of spirit that God loves & desires for us to have. It is that child-like, trusting spirit Jesus spoke about. 

So, I would say, don't try to over-think things. Trust and believe that He is in control of the situation, that everything that's happening now is according to His will and that, when the time comes to act, you _will_ 'hear' (know) His voice and know what to do. Until then, don't overlook the goodness & joy that today holds. Tell God (literally) that you're putting your trust in Him, & then let go of your worries/cares. 

BTW: Happy Father's Day. I hope your health is improving everyday.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

TNHermit said:


> That structure should come to life in a personal way for anyone who builds in the spiritual world.


There is the whole of it, in a nutshell, from my experience and understanding.

Further.....they say "you cannot take 'it' with you when you go", and I agree.

You build it here and find it waiting for you when you get there.


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## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

You build your personal relationship with God by prayer and study of the scriptures.You build your relationship with God by having the blood and body of Jesus Christ enter your body when you commune.He becomes your friend and reveals himself to you in many ways.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mnn2501 said:


> I know this is an old thread, but I really want to answer this.
> 
> I did everything for a long time, read scripture, prayed, went to Church.
> My prayers were always that I wanted to know if He existed, if what I was being taught was correct and I never got an answer. It was frustrating and I about gave up, then someone asked me what I would do if God did satisfy my intellectual curiosity and that question really gave me something to think about.
> ...



I like this.
But the part about satisfying ones intellectual curiosity is different in my case.
That came as well, in a "2x4" moment, more than one actually, lol.
I DID eventually tell Him I had heard enough, it was all my little brain could take, but the lasting result is a faith that can never be shaken.
How I wish that others could see things thru God's eyes. It is a little scary, I admit, but a *good* fear, as in the Hebrew translation of the word.




TNHermit said:


> Maybe I need a bigger 2x4 but for me both questions are one in the same.
> 
> I look at it like a job to do. Your hired on instead of the boss in person you get a "manual" like we did on the road at the mall stores. As time goes by despite going by the manual things don't come out right. You wonder where is the problem. Somebody may give you some ideas but no answers come from "central" you call ,write and nothing comes back. you then question if anyone is at home.
> For them to identify themselves lets you focus your questions and trust the answers. Maybe things are suppose to be different and you didn't get the note. What ever
> ...





TNHermit said:


> All the more reason that god as the perfect one needs to reveal himself without question to each imperfect person who *"seeks"* to hear his vocie and be at peace with what his spirit discerns



Ah, I see you're still searching and asking. That's good.
I know you'll get your answer, but I'm sorry that I don't know *when*.
The verse about "proving" Him is one a lot of preacher's ignore. They are afraid of their own ignorance and too proud not to admit it.
Malachi 3 is where it's at, but the preachers like to use that one when they pass the plate, instead of the whole meaning.
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Malachi-Chapter-3/
But be careful what you ask FOR, lol.
He has some pretty big 2x4's, LOL.





Forerunner said:


> There is the whole of it, in a nutshell, from my experience and understanding.
> 
> Further.....they say "you cannot take 'it' with you when you go", and I agree.
> 
> You build it here and find it waiting for you when you get there.


Well said.


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## chewie (Jun 9, 2008)

deleted


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

chewie said:


> ok, I could use some help if anyone's willing or able. I am struggling pretty bad with the loss of my daughter. i don't know my scripture well, but enough to know that there is something about not causing harm---- how on earth can this possibly be true????? how, can you tell me, how can a God who claims he 'is love', rip my heart out and stomp on it>??? why did he do this to me? why leave me here, with my life now ruined????
> 
> I believed all of it. i believed if i prayed, led a life best as i can, and was so very grateful for my girls, He'd keep us from harm. HA.
> 
> right now i feel forsaken, cursed and lied to. i think of the story of job--if God loved job, why on earth would He tear him apart like that??? what about that says love??


Chewie, I know you're still dealing with that, and I even mentioned that your answer was IN Job.
But you aren't ready to hear any answers now. You're still mad.
You know as well as I do that God did nothing to Job and nothing to hurt your daughter. You won't find that anywhere no matter how many times you read it.
But your still mad.
And if I've seen it once, I've seen it a million times. The minute any event happens, the *very first* thought out of someone's mouth is, "WHO IS TO BLAME?" "WHO DID THIS?" "WHOSE FAULT IS THIS?"
And in the end, that rarely helps, even if you do find out.
But you already know who isn't to blame........but that doesn't heal your pain right now, I know.:kiss:


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## chewie (Jun 9, 2008)

what I'm so mad at isn't as much of why he took her, but why I can't get any help for myself, now???? i am in desparate need of something, mainly peace. and yet, i get nothing. 

and, how can i be sure the reasons i felt i got of why she was taken, weren't just some wacky thing my own tortured brain dreamed up????

(that post was deleted due to going back and reading job link you posted--i forget things a lot right now, another horrible side effect--i'm a dingbat)


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I have lost two sons and the wife of my youth.

Every day is a struggle, but I don't look for any sympathy from above.

We are here on duty, and only when that duty is fulfilled will there be lasting peace.

There are those who claim to have peace amidst the personal and searing turmoil, but it is only because their mind has been temporarily distracted. When reality returns, the peace will be gone.

My best advice is not to seek relief, but immerse yourself in reality and absorb all that just and merciless master has to teach.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

chewie said:


> what I'm so mad at isn't as much of why he took her, but why I can't get any help for myself, now???? i am in desparate need of something, mainly peace. and yet, i get nothing.
> 
> and, how can i be sure the reasons i felt i got of why she was taken, weren't just some wacky thing my own tortured brain dreamed up????
> 
> (that post was deleted due to going back and reading job link you posted--i forget things a lot right now, another horrible side effect--i'm a dingbat)


You're not a dingbat, you're just in pain.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

chewie said:


> what I'm so mad at isn't as much of why he took her, but why I can't get any help for myself, now???? i am in desparate need of something, mainly peace. and yet, i get nothing.
> 
> and, how can i be sure the reasons i felt i got of why she was taken, weren't just some wacky thing my own tortured brain dreamed up????
> 
> (that post was deleted due to going back and reading job link you posted--i forget things a lot right now, another horrible side effect--i'm a dingbat)


 
Hugs!!! Take your time and small steps. It's your journey and you will find the way when it is that time.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

I've always believed that the deeper the love, the deeper the grief. Our love doesn't die when our loved one does, but that love lives on, and sometimes it seems that love, without the benefit of the object of the affection to exercise that love on, seems wasted and tragic. Losing a spouse, or a child, can be horrific and life changing. I'm actually surprised we don't have a grief forum on here, as many of us as there are who have lost spouses, children, and parents. I think it would be nice to have a place where others felt safe to just let it all out. 

Anyway, I think this is one of those things that I like about my church. We don't believe that we will be protected from all evil simply because we are good people, good Christians, and we pray always, pay our tithes, and live uprightly. We are mortal and therefore we are all subjected to pains, foibles,and conditions of mortality, and that extends to and includes, losing those we love. We cannot be protected from that, at all, for it is appointed once for all men to die. We all must suffer the pain of mortality, and no amount of prayer or righteous living is going to spare us the pain of mortality. Some of us linger in pain or in merciful oblivion (not merciful to those who care and watch). Some of us go quickly. I believe that to each of us is appointed years, how many years each of us have, we don't know, thankfully. Some will be many, others fewer, but I believe when the time comes for us to depart, it is because we've reached the end of our years. (yes, our years can be cut short, via murder, suicide, etc., and that is an agency issue). There are nearly always the "why" questions. Today, more than 40 years after the death of my childhood best friend (my older brother), there are still questions, (questions that could become accusations if I allowed it), but the pain has been numbed by the passing of time, and I know that he lived out his life and he has left a lasting legacy for me and my whole family. He died so young, (19 years old) but he didn't live in vain. This I know! I hope you find peace. I believe you can. I just believe you have to recognize it to grasp it when it presents itself. You won't ever go back to the way you felt before you lost her, but you can be happy again.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

I've lost my oldest son,brother to suicide and on. Why do we always focus on the pain and suffering. I believe we need to be challeneged to learn and sometimes to suffer for what we believe. What I don't understand is according to EVERYTHING I read we should be coing out bettr on the other side. Even though god and satan fought a war of egos and god DID afflict Job he came out better on the other side. Although I see no need to what happened in the first place if God loves u s more than Satan. But anyway! Its not just a reward in heaven. If it was we would all be having a circus every time someone died.. We were meant to be productive and conquer here on earth. But who teaches that. I've never heard it unless it was and excuse for why god railed on someone and a phony promise.
The idea that if we suffer enough here that we will be rewarded by heaven seems 100% out of phase with what the bible tells of Jesus reason for being.

Hardwork and learning yes! Suffering (as I understandit) to gain to me there is no love in that. OR heaven is going to be a sorrowful place.

I guess I should add that yes Jesus was suppose to have suffered for us Be according to scripture he suffered once for all and that was it.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> what I'm so mad at isn't as much of why he took her, but why I can't get any help for myself, now???? i am in desparate need of something, mainly peace. and yet, i get nothing.


I remember when my son's first dog died. Or rather, the first one that he had truly connected to. He was 9.

At first, he was so angry with everyone. He threw things, he yelled at people, he blamed his dad and I for not being able to save Max... Much as I tried to hug him, he would have none of it. 
The next part was harder. I almost had an easier time with the anger. He would cry. He would let me hold him on my lap, almost too big to fit, and he would cry these huge, shaking sobs for that dog. 
It didn't matter what I said or how tight I held him, he just cried and cried... I don't know if he even knew I was there, at first. He was just so lost in his heartache. 
So I'd just hold him and rock. 
He finally got to the point where he could accept my comfort, but it took a while.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

TNHermit said:


> I've lost my oldest son,brother to suicide and on. Why do we always focus on the pain and suffering. I believe we need to be challeneged to learn and sometimes to suffer for what we believe. What I don't understand is according to EVERYTHING I read we should be coing out bettr on the other side. Even though god and satan fought a war of egos and god DID afflict Job he came out better on the other side. Although I see no need to what happened in the first place if God loves u s more than Satan. But anyway! Its not just a reward in heaven. If it was we would all be having a circus every time someone died.. We were meant to be productive and conquer here on earth. But who teaches that. I've never heard it unless it was and excuse for why god railed on someone and a phony promise.
> The idea that if we suffer enough here that we will be rewarded by heaven seems 100% out of phase with what the bible tells of Jesus reason for being.
> 
> Hardwork and learning yes! Suffering (as I understandit) to gain to me there is no love in that. OR heaven is going to be a sorrowful place.
> ...


I've always been taught that we're to be productive and conquer here on Earth. I believe that "man is that he might have joy". I don't believe that to mean man won't suffer though. As I said, in our mortal state, we DO suffer. Its part of mortality. I suppose, in some ways, a loving heavenly Father lets us suffer so that we will learn. At the time, we may not understand what we have to learn, and perhaps its nothing more than empathy for another that we have to learn. Humility perhaps. Its like our little children...we try to give them a safe environment to grow and learn, but sooner or later, we have to let them go. We buy them a bicycle and put them on it, and teach them correct principles, and eventually, we let them go, knowing full well that somewhere along the line, there are going to be skinned knees. But we know whatever small (to us) pain the suffer, will be worth it in the long run, although to them, it is needless pain and suffering. Some children are afraid to get back on the bicycle and try again, while others are less so. We can comfort them and while it makes them feel somewhat better, we know that we can't take the scraped knee completely away, nor the pain of it, nor the scar of it. Children need to learn to walk up and down stairs, and that, invariably means falling down them at some point. But we don't strap pillows all over our child, or keep them from ever experiencing a set of stairs. We teach them and let them go. We don't not have children because we know we will die and they will be left bereft someday. No, we have them anyway, and raise them the best we can giving them the skills they need to cope with the loss, even despite the pain we know they WILL face one day. Father in Heaven is no different in my book. I believe he teaches us correct principles and leaves us to make our way through this mortal life the best we can. He comforts us, but he doesn't remove the pain entirely, he doesn't remove the scar either. I believe its part of our learning and is necessary.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

thequeensblessing said:


> I've always been taught that we're to be productive and conquer here on Earth. I believe that "man is that he might have joy". I don't believe that to mean man won't suffer though. As I said, in our mortal state, we DO suffer. Its part of mortality. I suppose, in some ways, a loving heavenly Father lets us suffer so that we will learn. At the time, we may not understand what we have to learn, and perhaps its nothing more than empathy for another that we have to learn. Humility perhaps. Its like our little children...we try to give them a safe environment to grow and learn, but sooner or later, we have to let them go. We buy them a bicycle and put them on it, and teach them correct principles, and eventually, we let them go, knowing full well that somewhere along the line, there are going to be skinned knees. But we know whatever small (to us) pain the suffer, will be worth it in the long run, although to them, it is needless pain and suffering. Some children are afraid to get back on the bicycle and try again, while others are less so. We can comfort them and while it makes them feel somewhat better, we know that we can't take the scraped knee completely away, nor the pain of it, nor the scar of it. Children need to learn to walk up and down stairs, and that, invariably means falling down them at some point. But we don't strap pillows all over our child, or keep them from ever experiencing a set of stairs. We teach them and let them go. We don't not have children because we know we will die and they will be left bereft someday. No, we have them anyway, and raise them the best we can giving them the skills they need to cope with the loss, even despite the pain we know they WILL face one day. Father in Heaven is no different in my book. I believe he teaches us correct principles and leaves us to make our way through this mortal life the best we can. He comforts us, but he doesn't remove the pain entirely, he doesn't remove the scar either. I believe its part of our learning and is necessary.




Well if this is the case i want nothing to do with it. Youve lost me. And we should be going through the schools once a day beating the kids so they will learn. For me suffering would only be from a lack of knowledge. And ica n almost guarantee you that anyone that has to learn anything by suffering says the earth with it 9 out of ten times. There is nothing in any suffering I have ever done that promotes a any desire to learn under those circumstances.

But if that is what it is then my search is over and I have wasted a lot of time and belief that there was good and love somewhere in this universe despite everything telling me there really isn't anything beyond human affection learned over thousands of years.

And isnt it weird that as a child if we did suffer for some reason we could alwasy go to our mom or dad . We didn't have to wait till they had time. Or be told they couldn't explan to us or that it was for the greater good. Or that they had a plan for us and what we just went through was part of the plan. BAH!!!


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

The Muslims must have it right. No one believes in suffering more than they do and they have the same god. We need to uit fighting thtem and give in so they can teach us to suffer and gain. Its no wonder day by day I have no desire to see heaven or anything connected with it. I'm fine right here


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

TNHermit said:


> Well if this is the case i want nothing to do with it. Youve lost me. And we should be going through the schools once a day beating the kids so they will learn. For me suffering would only be from a lack of knowledge. And ica n almost guarantee you that anyone that has to learn anything by suffering says the earth with it 9 out of ten times. There is nothing in any suffering I have ever done that promotes a any desire to learn under those circumstances.
> 
> But if that is what it is then my search is over and I have wasted a lot of time and belief that there was good and love somewhere in this universe despite everything telling me there really isn't anything beyond human affection learned over thousands of years.
> 
> And isnt it weird that as a child if we did suffer for some reason we could alwasy go to our mom or dad . We didn't have to wait till they had time. Or be told they couldn't explan to us or that it was for the greater good. Or that they had a plan for us and what we just went through was part of the plan. BAH!!!


I think your search was probably over a long time ago. I'm only sorry you don't see a distinction between suffering. Your statement that we should go to the schools and beat children so that they learn shows me that quite plainly. Would you strap pillows all over your child as they were learning to go up or down stairs or ride a bike so that they didn't get hurt? Or should they learn about gravity solely via a text book so that they felt no pain? Would we truly know happiness if there was not some pain to compare it to? Or would we just take it all for granted and be stagnant because happiness was all we knew and could expect? I know, you don't understand my meaning....
As I said earlier, sure our kids can come to us and I don't know about you, but I couldn't always answer my kids questions when they got hurt. My 4 year old falls off her bicycle and skins her knee...she wants me to make it all better. She wants to know why she fell...should I launch into a lesson on gravity that she couldn't understand if I did explain it? Or do we take away all the pain and suffering associated with it so that she never learns about safety, or about gravity? Or better yet, we get rid of gravity so that there'd be no falling, no skinned knees, no suffering. Gravity is such a bad thing as it causes so much pain...
I had breast cancer. It was a bad experience. Nothing about the experience was good. I beat breast cancer. I've since been able to help encourage and support many women, especially young women, as I was when I was diagnosed, in being their own advocate and being a survivor. I took a bad thing and used it for good. Does that make the experience any less bad? No, of course not. But its what I did with it that is good. I learned about myself too. I learned I had more courage than I had believed. I learned that I'm stronger than I ever believed. I became educated in things I most likely would never have educated myself on. That doesn't mean I'm glad I had cancer, but it means I learned from the experience. It was my choice. I could have sat around and felt sorry for myself and bemoaned my lot in life and how unfair it is and how I shouldn't have to suffer and really never have learned anything from it, but I decided to use a terrible thing for good. 
I was sexually abused as a child. A terrible thing. But that terrible thing has done as much good as it has harm for me. I learned things from the experience. I grew from the experience. The real tragedy would have been to have that terrible thing happen to me, and not see anything good come of it. That doesn't mean that I'm glad it happened, but I'm glad I'm a better person because of it happening. 
I guess I'm not looking for some Garden of Eden where nothing ever hurts, nothing ever happens, and we are all blissful and no one ever suffered or died. We wouldn't know we were blissful because its all we would know. We'd be indifferent to our plight because there'd be nothing to compare to. Life would get to be mundane after a while. Perhaps you'd like that, but not I. 
I'm glad you've found what you've been searching for though. I hope it makes you happy. I'm happy in what I've found, truly.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

TNHermit said:


> The Muslims must have it right. No one believes in suffering more than they do and they have the same god. We need to uit fighting thtem and give in so they can teach us to suffer and gain. Its no wonder day by day I have no desire to see heaven or anything connected with it. I'm fine right here


I can't even think of a reply....this is such a perversion of everything I said.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

thequeensblessing said:


> I think your search was probably over a long time ago. I'm only sorry you don't see a distinction between suffering. Your statement that we should go to the schools and beat children so that they learn shows me that quite plainly. Would you strap pillows all over your child as they were learning to go up or down stairs or ride a bike so that they didn't get hurt? Or should they learn about gravity solely via a text book so that they felt no pain? Would we truly know happiness if there was not some pain to compare it to? Or would we just take it all for granted and be stagnant because happiness was all we knew and could expect? I know, you don't understand my meaning....
> As I said earlier, sure our kids can come to us and I don't know about you, but I couldn't always answer my kids questions when they got hurt. My 4 year old falls off her bicycle and skins her knee...she wants me to make it all better. She wants to know why she fell...should I launch into a lesson on gravity that she couldn't understand if I did explain it? Or do we take away all the pain and suffering associated with it so that she never learns about safety, or about gravity? Or better yet, we get rid of gravity so that there'd be no falling, no skinned knees, no suffering. Gravity is such a bad thing as it causes so much pain...
> I had breast cancer. It was a bad experience. Nothing about the experience was good. I beat breast cancer. I've since been able to help encourage and support many women, especially young women, as I was when I was diagnosed, in being their own advocate and being a survivor. I took a bad thing and used it for good. Does that make the experience any less bad? No, of course not. But its what I did with it that is good. I learned about myself too. I learned I had more courage than I had believed. I learned that I'm stronger than I ever believed. I became educated in things I most likely would never have educated myself on. That doesn't mean I'm glad I had cancer, but it means I learned from the experience. It was my choice. I could have sat around and felt sorry for myself and bemoaned my lot in life and how unfair it is and how I shouldn't have to suffer and really never have learned anything from it, but I decided to use a terrible thing for good.
> I was sexually abused as a child. A terrible thing. But that terrible thing has done as much good as it has harm for me. I learned things from the experience. I grew from the experience. The real tragedy would have been to have that terrible thing happen to me, and not see anything good come of it. That doesn't mean that I'm glad it happened, but I'm glad I'm a better person because of it happening.
> ...


Well I for one don't think a child scraping his knees or a cut is suffering. And yes when My kid fell down I explained to him in childs way that they had to over come gravity. Suffering is when everything you do is a battle from getting up to fix breakfast to getting ready for bed at night.
I'm convinced we've talked our way into suffering rather than stand for what things should really be in the end in order to justify our selves worth of something.. 

One only has to look at how many have taken to the gospel of Obama to prove that. He loves us and wants the best for us too he says so.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

thequeensblessing said:


> I can't even think of a reply....this is such a perversion of everything I said.


Why is it a perversion. Maybe we need to list the good kind of suffering and the bad kind


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Don't lose heart, QueenB.....your message was solid.

I do understand TN's bitterness, as well.

I have appreciated much that C.S. Lewis has had to say addressing the agony of existence.
.....and I have appreciated his perspective and others regarding the potential for spiritual advancement and the relief that will bring to those who "persevere unto the end".


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

TNHermit said:


> Why is it a perversion. Maybe we need to list the good kind of suffering and the bad kind


I got that one.

The good kind of suffering is that which, once the searing pain subsides and the wound only throbs to the end that one can again function on a basic level, one begins to appreciate the perspective and appreciation that only such a bitter loss can reveal.
It is literally that the pain is necessary to remove the scales that covered the eye of spiritual perception, that we might finally and truly see.
One may or may not see opportunity to experience and benefit from that clarity in this life, but I believe it will be a great gift in the next.

Bad suffering is that which we bring upon ourselves, from which there is no escape for a very long time, perhaps even until death.


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## tlrnnp67 (Nov 5, 2006)

Chewie and everyone else who has suffered from devastating losses:

There is nothing anyone can say to alleviate your grief, despite their best wishes. It is a painful, hurtful, mind-altering process that no one can take away. It's just something that we have to endure. It is not a get it done and get over it process. It is gradual, and it just generally sucks for a while. 

Although the following won't lessen the emotional and personal toll of grief, it might help to recognize the human stages that we all go through from an intellectual standpoint. Please read up on Elizabeth Kubler Ross' five stages of grief, based on her work "On Death and Dying".


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Forerunner said:


> I got that one.
> 
> The good kind of suffering is that which, once the searing pain subsides and the wound only throbs to the end that one can again function on a basic level, one begins to appreciate the perspective and appreciation that only such a bitter loss can reveal.
> It is literally that the pain is necessary to remove the scales that covered the eye of spiritual perception, that we might finally and truly see.
> ...


SO how does one buy a place in the woods away from the the main stream, move there, retire, do their best to be self suffiecent, not bother anyone be content with what one has and want only to be left alone to pursue your thing (reading,study, garden and woodwork) hopefully preparing a place for family when the SHTF, while being able to help others without notoriety bring on a living hell of constant torment,and continuing battles (12 years now ) so petty to the point you have to fight to get dressed in the morning. And that is not an exaggeration. What evil sin was committed in thsi endeavor


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Ooo, ooo, I've got this one!  I don't know about all of that prosper and conquer stuff. I am more a believer that we were created to live in a garden, to be husbands to the earth and to nurture that garden until it grew to encompass the entire earth. We had an early failure there. I also believe that every one of us is special in God's eye, and that we each have a unique place in his plan, like uncut stones. While we do have free will, we will be unhappy filling a spot that is not our's, no matter how much we desire to fit there. I always only wanted to live away from people, and to have my safe place in the woods. I got it and lost it, to make a long story short. I fought it, and fought it, but lost in the end. That wasn't the 1st time I had that experience either. Anyway, I was still where I wanted to be, in Appalachia, and figured I'd just start over. I had as good job, and was moving up, and my company went bust leaving me unemployed  I was forced to do things I never wanted to do, and over the last two years have found that I was wrong about a lot of things I knew about me. I don't hate being around people after all. In fact, I really like serving people. Now my only dream is to become a nurse, so that I can do just that. I have no desire to ever own a thing again  and I'm happy. 
Maybe you are where you shouldn't be.
Chewie, I wish someone, anyone, could say something to fix your heart, but they can't. It is just something you are going to have to make it through, as terrible and lonely as it is. Your story makes me weep, and you are in my prayers. When I suffered my greatest loss, I was alone and could scream and yell, curse, and wrestle with God to my heart's content. But, you are a wife and mother and don't have that luxury. Please know that you are in the prayers of many, and that you will make it through this. It is a long dark road on a moonless and stormy night, but there is shelter somewhere ahead. There are some wounds that never heal, but you do learn to live with them, will come out at the other end of this, and you will find peace.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

Suffering doesn't only come via "evil sin". Disease brings suffering and disease isn't always associated with someone's behavior or "sin". A loved one's death isn't necessarily due to "sin". 

Also, just as you claim that you don't think a child's skinned knee is suffering by your standards, even as a parent, even though the child may think it is agony, so perhaps God doesn't think our mortal trials are suffering by his higher standards. That makes him no less caring and loving than you as a parent who doesn't look at your child's skinned knee as suffering.

Christ was asked about why the blind man was blind, because of his sin or his parents sin (because he was born blind) and Christ said neither, but he was blind so that the works of God could be manifest in him.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

vicker said:


> Ooo, ooo, I've got this one!  I don't know about all of that prosper and conquer stuff. I am more a believer that we were created to live in a garden, to be husbands to the earth and to nurture that garden until it grew to encompass the entire earth. We had an early failure there. I also believe that every one of us is special in God's eye, and that we each have a unique place in his plan, like uncut stones. While we do have free will, we will be unhappy filling a spot that is not our's, no matter how much we desire to fit there. I always only wanted to live away from people, and to have my safe place in the woods. I got it and lost it, to make a long story short. I fought it, and fought it, but lost in the end. That wasn't the 1st time I had that experience either. Anyway, I was still where I wanted to be, in Appalachia, and figured I'd just start over. I had as good job, and was moving up, and my company went bust leaving me unemployed  I was forced to do things I never wanted to do, and over the last two years have found that I was wrong about a lot of things I knew about me. I don't hate being around people after all. In fact, I really like serving people. Now my only dream is to become a nurse, so that I can do just that. I have no desire to ever own a thing again  and I'm happy.
> Maybe you are where you shouldn't be.
> Chewie, I wish someone, anyone, could say something to fix your heart, but they can't. It is just something you are going to have to make it through, as terrible and lonely as it is. Your story makes me weep, and you are in my prayers. When I suffered my greatest loss, I was alone and could scream and yell, curse, and wrestle with God to my heart's content. But, you are a wife and mother and don't have that luxury. Please know that you are in the prayers of many, and that you will make it through this. It is a long dark road on a moonless and stormy night, but there is shelter somewhere ahead. There are some wounds that never heal, but you do learn to live with them, will come out at the other end of this, and you will find peace.


Wow....very sweet!


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

vicker said:


> Ooo, ooo, I've got this one!  I don't know about all of that prosper and conquer stuff. I am more a believer that we were created to live in a garden, to be husbands to the earth and to nurture that garden until it grew to encompass the entire earth. We had an early failure there. I also believe that every one of us is special in God's eye, and that we each have a unique place in his plan, like uncut stones. While we do have free will, we will be unhappy filling a spot that is not our's, no matter how much we desire to fit there. I always only wanted to live away from people, and to have my safe place in the woods. I got it and lost it, to make a long story short. I fought it, and fought it, but lost in the end. That wasn't the 1st time I had that experience either. Anyway, I was still where I wanted to be, in Appalachia, and figured I'd just start over. I had as good job, and was moving up, and my company went bust leaving me unemployed  I was forced to do things I never wanted to do, and over the last two years have found that I was wrong about a lot of things I knew about me. I don't hate being around people after all. In fact, I really like serving people. Now my only dream is to become a nurse, so that I can do just that. I have no desire to ever own a thing again  and I'm happy.
> Maybe you are where you shouldn't be.
> Chewie, I wish someone, anyone, could say something to fix your heart, but they can't. It is just something you are going to have to make it through, as terrible and lonely as it is. Your story makes me weep, and you are in my prayers. When I suffered my greatest loss, I was alone and could scream and yell, curse, and wrestle with God to my heart's content. But, you are a wife and mother and don't have that luxury. Please know that you are in the prayers of many, and that you will make it through this. It is a long dark road on a moonless and stormy night, but there is shelter somewhere ahead. There are some wounds that never heal, but you do learn to live with them, will come out at the other end of this, and you will find peace.



Well lets just say there have been no other doors ,windows or rat holes open up to anything else. Any time i have joined the "public"its been a complete disaster in the sense i get blindsided by someone. 
Add to that that I go to town once a month and in 3 hours i am more than ready to say the heck with it and get home But I persevere. The last three weeks of running all over has about driven me nuts.
And were talking about something that has been a goal since at least nine years old. And i have compromised my rear end off to get here. I spent 15 years on the road to build the stores the mall crowd wanted while being away from family. I'm glad it worked for you but its not for me. As far as owning things i only care about it in the sense that it gives me say over how its taken care of. Try using a friends handplane or saw sometime LOL

Let me explain how I gauge what is going on. very simple

everything happens for a reason.
if everything happens for a reason then its not the thing but the timing
If it screwed up before i even get going then some one has read my mind. Since I am not in a habit of telling everything to someone.
If"the devil" can read minds we got a whole new problem
Watching things go wrong as it happens has become really interesting as i can tell the future almost. And it makes no difference what kind of set up or prep you do. it will sill be wrong and I haven't figured out how to get around that.

But i am getting to the point I know longer care. If that is what kind of quality he wants then so be it. It just shows a complete lack of respect for the person i am building it for let alone the hassle for me. He wants to be in charge then he also can take responsibility for it. I even gone to noting and writing it down on hidden parts of the object.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I understand that, and my saying that maybe you aren't where you should be is not helpful, or accurate. "You aren't where you ultimately will be", is more to my liking.  I think you will find it.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

This was a misplaced post.


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## Bouncenhumble (Jan 12, 2004)

TNHermit said:


> Got two threads on churches and religions so won't bust them. My big contention over the years has been the "personal relationship" is.
> 
> We have personal relationship with our SO,kids and family but for some reason when we expect something similar in a personal relationship with God All I hear is excuses. Especially the "you wouldn't understand or aren't smart enough ones" They will get you nowhere.
> I would never consider treating my kids the way some people accept as a personal relationship with God.
> ...


As my wife read me a bunch of this a few things kept comming to mind. With all the "suffering and pain" that she has gone through... for example verses yours. I know you can't "compare" my pain to yours... but what have you done with your pain? What has your negative outlook or attitude done for you? Has it made you happy? Has it protected you? I am sure I know so little of what you have done.. but me knowing is not the point... I would like you to answer not for any of us.. but for yourself. On the other hand I have seen my wife grow to become a much stronger person, in tempral things as well as spiritual things. She has become a lot more forgiving and loving to me, as well as her family, children, grandchildren, my family. Shoot even people on here as well as strangers. She calls me on the carpet when she sees me doing or saying something out of line. She is so willing to help in any way she can. Some of it is just her, some is BECAUSE of the "pain and suffering" she has had to endure. I believe the only way we can make it to our full potentual is to have these experiances. I remember some one asking, "is it good or bad?". The answer is, Yes it is good or bad, depending on how we deal with it. I am posting a poem from one of my favorite talks that I heard as a kid. I'll also post the link to the whole talk so you can read it all, if you feel the notion. 

Pain stayed so long I said to him today, 
"I will not have you with me any more." 
I stamped my foot and said, "Be on your way," 
And paused there, startled at the look he wore. 
"I, who have been your friend," he said to me, 
"I, who have been your teacherâall you know 
Of understanding love, of sympathy, 
And patience, I have taught you. Shall I go?" 
He spoke the truth, this strange unwelcome guest; 
I watched him leave, and knew that he was wise. 
He left a heart grown tender in my breast, 
He left a far, clear vision in my eyes. 
I dried my tears, and lifted up a song -- 
Even for one whoâd tortured me so long.--Anonymous


http://probationarystate.blogspot.com/2011/10/spencer-w-kimball-tragedy-or-destiny.html


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Sorry guys but if a life of suffering is for teaching and a god that says he loves yet is unapproachable is not for me. You have convinced me of that. As for my happiness that is not an issue and never was part of this for me.i am fine. I was looking for something more but the issue is that thanks to your way of life there are many thing i wont be able to share with others or as you say bless them with as it seems to be important to waste time.on this other.
I'll have to find god another way as to me this all just making excuses for something that doesn't have to be as it is. I've spent many years in bible study, all the translations and lexicons and so forth. I just cant get it to read like you people do.

i wish you well.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

TNHermit said:


> Well Ive read all the answers and I agree with a lot of it. At the same time I can tell you I have done all the same things that you have. But it doesn't and has never worked. At which time you would tell me I am doing something wrong and I would just a quickly reply that I haven't.
> One thing about learning to be a good furniture maker is that you have to be and can not be afraid of being self critical and analyzing your ways,techniques and a every facet. And i can tell you I have done just that. So I guess I will let it go at that and not get into particulars for people to judge me on. I will say that I know of my mistakes but *I carry not one iota go guilt.*


That may be the problem right there. If you don't feel that you need forgiveness for anything, then there is nothing that Jesus can do for you. You can try to "work" and do all the "right" things to form this "personal relationship" (which is a buzzphrase, and isn't found in the Bible as an actual term) but if you are coming from a place of "hey, God, what have you done for me lately, and how come you're not responding like I think you should when I've been doing all these righteous acts?" then it's not really surprising that you haven't felt any sort of relationship with him.

We humans are really good at thinking, "If I do x, y, and z, then God will respond by doing a, b, and c, and everything will be great." And then when something happens that isn't what we think should happen, or nothing happens, we're all offended, like God isn't holding up his end of the bargain. 

God is not a genie in a bottle. He cannot be manipulated or conned into fulfilling our wishes, even if our wish seems to be a good one, like having a "personal relationship." If, at bottom, that wish for a personal relationship is so that we can get the things we want on this earth, well, that's just not how it works.

We have to realize our *need* for him. That we are helpless to do anything to fix our own brokenness. That all our striving for righteousness and all our "good works" are nothing more than filthy rags before him. 

But if you are convinced that you are OK, and it's up to God to come to you on YOUR terms, then it's not surprising that you have not had any success.

When I was a kid, I believed in God. I knew that Jesus died on the cross. I learned all this in church. I knew that those who weren't Christians were going to go to hell, and I sure knew I didn't want to go there. The way to NOT go there, I thought, was to say "the sinner's prayer." You've probably heard that or know what it is. You pray these statements in a certain order, and say amen and that's it, you're a Christian. I prayed that prayer a LOT. I answered altar calls more than once. I used to think that maybe every time I sinned, I'd lost my salvation and needed to pray the prayer again. I still never felt like it "did" anything. I wondered if I'd said the prayer right. Maybe I wasn't sincere enough. Maybe I'd said things in the wrong order. 

I was treating it like a formula - pray the right way, and bingo, you're in. 

I struggled with this all of my growing up years and into early adulthood. At times I didn't seek him, other times I did. There were periods of time when I didn't go to church at all, and then times when I did. It was only after a crisis in my life that I think the barrier really broke down, and I was really open to hear him. I was listening to Chuck Swindoll one day, and suddenly I *knew* that MY sin put Jesus on that cross. He died FOR ME. I can't describe really what that was like, to know that in a way I'd never known before. And I also realized that God *loved* me. Really. Loved. Me. It was like a curtain that I'd only seen through dimly before was suddenly drawn aside.

I'm still learning. It wasn't like that day I suddenly understood everything. Nor am I perfect. But I understood the most important thing. My sins are forgiven. I could do nothing to save myself, but I didn't need to, because He had already done everything that was necessary. And I realized that nothing that I could do would ever make him love me more, or less. 

No more, my God, I boast no more
 Of all the duties I have done;
I quit the hopes I held before,
To trust the merits of Thy Son.

Now, for the love I bear His name,
What was my gain I count my loss;
My former pride I call my shame,
And nail my glory to His cross.

Yes, and I must and will esteem
All things but loss for Jesus' sake:
O may my soul be found in him,
And of His righteousness partake

The best obedience of my hands
Dares not appear before Thy throne
But faith can answer thy demands
By pleading what my Lord has done.

-- Isaac Watts


Whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christâthe righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. Philippians 3:7-9


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## tallpines (Apr 9, 2003)

"God gives the hardest battles 
to His toughest soldiers".

~~~Anonymous


Give all of the worries, problems, stress --- to God.
Make your life like an open book with totally blank pages.
Let ^Him^ fill in those empty pages.


FAITH is not about "feelings" from the heart.
FAITH is a conscious CHOICE!


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## Bouncenhumble (Jan 12, 2004)

TNHermit said:


> Sorry guys but if a life of suffering is for teaching and a god that says he loves yet is unapproachable is not for me. You have convinced me of that. As for my happiness that is not an issue and never was part of this for me.i am fine. I was looking for something more but the issue is that thanks to your way of life there are many thing i wont be able to share with others or as you say bless them with as it seems to be important to waste time.on this other.
> I'll have to find god another way as to me this all just making excuses for something that doesn't have to be as it is. I've spent many years in bible study, all the translations and lexicons and so forth. I just cant get it to read like you people do.
> 
> i wish you well.


The answer is there, I and others have given it to you.. but you will need to come to it on your own. My guess is that you one of three things... didn't read the talk, or you don't understand it, or you don't care enough to find out. (not sure what else it could be) And if you are not willing to help your self, there is nothing I can do.
You can lead a horse to water but ya can't make him drink... something my father said time after time after time, to me. 
That is a prison you have made for your self, one you will never escape from... untill you let your self out of it. Pain and suffering will be your constant compainion untill you decide to let it go and learn from it. I believe in a loving God that will not torment you one second longer than is nessary. There is simply something you need from it.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Feeling the pain is one thing.

Taking it for its value is another.

But one of the most disturbing warnings I've ever read of C.S.Lewis was the following:

* &#8220;Hell begins with a grumbling mood, always complaining, always blaming others... but you are still distinct from it. You may even criticize it in yourself and wish you could stop it. But there may come a day when you can no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood or even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself, going on forever like a machine. It is not a question of God "sending us" to hell. In each of us there is something growing, which will BE hell unless it is nipped in the bud. &#8221; *

There is also the warning from Proverbs 29:1........ "He, that being often reproved _hardeneth_ [his] neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that _without remedy."

_I find that humility and acceptance give me far better sleep and much greater hope for the future.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I like this  I really do, for it was when I yelled and cursed at God and tore my clothes, that I heard that quiet whisper.
1 Kings 11 _The Lord said, &#8220;Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the Lord, for the Lord is about to pass by.&#8221;

Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. 12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. 13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.

Then a voice said to him, &#8220;What are you doing here, Elijah?&#8221;_
(This was when Elijah gave a very good defense for himself  And then the Lord explained to Elijah that he wasn't all that, and to please just go and do as he was asked  )

TNH, don't be discouraged by others being frustrated by your frustration.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I hate to quote chapter and verse of the Bible, as there is so much more to it than that. Many times in the long story you will find God's chosen doing this very thing. Moses, Jonah, Jesus, Paul and others did it. It almost seems a prerequisite to me. Perhaps, it is.


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## Elsbet (Apr 2, 2009)

God's justice doesn't always come into our losses. Our losses aren't always about being punished. The Bible calls us to be conformed to Christ's image. We don't naturally want to do that. Our converted hearts may desire it, but our flesh is weak. God works on us as a surgeon works to remove a cancer. Our sin is a cancer. At first we want to hide it, pretend it isn't there. We are in denial. Then we are angry and fearful- we didn't ask to be sinners! It was Adam and Eve's fault! We blame others, even though our sin is us doing exactly what we've wanted to do since the moment we were conscious of being able to. When we are faced with choices to do good or wrong, we often choose the wrong. Nobody makes us, neither Satan nor God. When we run to God, though, and admit to him we need His help, he doesn't turn us away. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Being forgiven doesn't mean the consequences go away, however. And if we have a besetting sin, one that we are constantly brokenhearted over, but keeps coming back, the process of rooting it out is incredibly painful. 
Our suffering on this earth is likened to a refiner's fire. You only get pure gold after it has been melted down completely and the dross skimmed off. 
What Christ faced for us, in our stead, was standing stripped of glory, with the face of God turned from Him when he hung upon the cross. For very God to be outside the presence of very God, Jesus cried out in pain, when he was silent under the whip and the crown of thorns. What pain he faced for us on the cross was for the author of life to DIE. 
And because of this, he killed death. He had victory over the grave, and with that victory he gave all his people hope. The grave will not hold us forever, it is powerless. 
I have lost people. I've lost children, beloved great grandmother, friends... I have a very, very, very close relative going through a horrible suffering right now. Because of what Christ did, I know that even though grief and sorrow may be coming, it isn't forever. It is for a time. I will see those that I loved again. And even though I am physically frail, my family takes comfort in my faith, knowing that should something happen, they will see me again.
Death is not the end of our story. Hebrews 11 says that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things unseen." Augustine of Hippo said "Therefore, seek not to understand that thou mayest believe, but believe that thou mayest understand."
We who are broken are being mended. We are so deeply broken, every molecule of our being must be remade by God. We are being conformed into the image of Christ, and in His mercy, God had Christ take the brunt of our pain, for we could never have withstood what He withstood. He was perfect and sinless, and God, and he took all that we could not bear on His shoulders and bore it for us, so that we would not be condemned or utterly crushed. We are no longer under the weight of the law, but rest in the knowledge of His grace. And it is free grace. 

We don't mourn like those who have no hope. Our hope must lie in Christ alone, not in the pleasures of this world, or even in one another. We all pass in our appointed time, and pass through the darkness of pain and death, but joy comes in the morning. We need to look for the dawn, not draw the curtains so the sun doesn't shine on us. Think on the lovely things of this world, and the blessings rained down on us day by day. Even in our loss, remembering the joys of a relationship softens the pain. Hold to those things, and handing our loved ones over to God is easier. Hope to see them again. Hope that the suffering we ourselves go through that does not kill us instead polishes us into fine gems, refracting His light out for all the world to see.


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## KansasFarmgirl (Jan 1, 2008)

TNHermit, 

I used to think I had a relationship with God and that he was beside all day long, guiding me, talking to me, my best friend. Only wanting the best for me. I was "raised" with the Word of Faith crowd. I was happy with my faith for 20 years. 

Then reality hit. Death of a loved one for whom I had prayed every day for a very long time. I didn't demand he heal her. But I believed with all my heart that he would. It didn't happen.

This god didn't have to answer my prayers, they weren't demands. But for crying out loud, why allow me to hope and to cry and pray all that time? Just TELL ME it isn't meant to be. So I don't have hope and energy going out for something that will not happen. Talk to me! To say I was disappointed with faith is a big understatement. I railed and cussed at god. Why did he put me thru this and not just tell me to forget it? 

After her death, for three years I denied the existence of a god or any higher being.

I have always been like you. A relationship means we COMMUNICATE. And I have never gotten that communication back. Without communication, I feel I might as well be talking to a wooden idol. What's the difference? If all my prayers go up and nothing comes down, well then, a wooden idol can do the same for me. And it doesn't put all those unrealistic expectations of goodness on me. 

So I began to wonder... what guides the course of my life? And I came up with an answer. It's my decisions. Every little decision I make or you make, has a consequence, whether great or small. And that consequence will lead to another decision. All day long, we make decisions and endure the consequences. 

I don't believe in Kharma. I don't believe in a god who answers my prayers for this or that or who even wants to communicate with me all that much. But, with other life changing events that have taken place recently, I find myself pondering life, and looking at the stars, and asking questions. And sometimes I get answers. Surprisingly, sometimes the answers are the same things that are written down in the bible. And I can see the truth of those words in action in my life, whereas, they were commandments I was supposed to force myself to obey, now... they are words of wisdom that seem to resonate deep within me. I don't ask this creator for anything. But somehow, it seems like he gives me wisdom during my ponderings. Wisdom for how to live my life. How to make good decisions. And that is what is going to affect my life more than whether I am eating beans or manna. 

For example, again, I am dealing with death now. I cry every day. And I ask, Why? Not to anyone in particular, just to myself. And my thoughts were turning into bitterness. One day, I was just sitting, pondering and thinking bitter thoughts, all the sudden it dropped into my soul. "Guard your heart." That bitterness was eating me up. I had no peace, only anger and anguish. Somehow, I drove the bitter thoughts out of my mind and refused to think on them for the moment, and a peace rushed in. It didn't last for days... only a few hours. But then, next time the bitter thoughts began again, I told myself not entertain them. They do me no good. Of course, I am struggling. The bitter thoughts still come. 

I gave up the idea of a "personal relationship" with a god a long time ago. But I am willing to allow myself to follow the path that seems to be laid out before me, with an ear to a higher power, a creator, who *may* speak to me during some of my ponderings. But I have no expectations. 

If it is not a creator dropping me wise words, and only me thinking, what of it? It brings me peace. And makes my life better. But, I like to think that now that I gave up religion, gave up christianity, gave up asking for anything, no longer striving, and only seek to live my life in peace and goodness, seeking only answers to the deep things in life, somehow I have tapped an Ancient power. 

But I certainly don't know this for sure. So you asked for us to tell you about our "relationship" and so I did. No one needs to tell me I'm right or wrong, or I'm going to heaven or I'm going to hell. Their opinion doesn't matter to me. I am just living this life, trying to make sense of it, trying to learn to treat others well - showing mercy, to live in peace, and to do good, not evil. To follow my heart when I seek answers and ancient wisdom seeps in, bringing me peace. It's a struggle, but it's my struggle. No one elses. And I'm the one who lives with it.


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## suzfromWi (Jun 1, 2002)

I do not do religion, but I do believe in a higher power that guides my life. My concience, I believe it is just that. If I listen closely, my concience will tell me the right thing to do. Do I always follow it? No. Thats when I get into trouble. 
There was a time when I was very troubled. I didnt know what to do about a scary situation. I heard a voice in my head saying, It will be okay! It wasnt my voice...I felt an instant relief of my soul. Everything Did turn out. Everything was okay. 
Do we get ourselves in trouble? yes we do. Free will and all that, but if we listen, really listen...the answer will come...My God wants us to be happy and fullfilled. My God trys to get us there...We HAVE to listen...


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## suzfromWi (Jun 1, 2002)

Find the book [ What religion is God?] It could make you feel something once again...I was where you are at one time, Its so much better to get back to believing in something...


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

TNHermit said:


> The Muslims must have it right. No one believes in suffering more than they do and they have the same god. We need to uit fighting thtem and give in so they can teach us to suffer and gain. Its no wonder day by day I have no desire to see heaven or anything connected with it. I'm fine right here


I think what could also be seen as "perversion" here is that the muslims have a different god. It is *not* the God of the Bible and creation.

Their god would make them all into orphans.

Our Creator God wants to make us all his children.

I'm sorry you've given up the search, TNHermit. You say that knowledge is important to you, yet you appear to have given up searching.

If you're so inclined, you may want to pick up the late Francis Schaeffer's book, "Escape From Reason." It's an over-thinker's dream. For that matter, just about everything Schaeffer wrote is great for those who think things to death.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

suzfromWi said:


> Find the book [ What religion is God?] It could make you feel something once again...I was where you are at one time, Its so much better to get back to believing in something...





Pony said:


> I think what could also be seen as "perversion" here is that the muslims have a different god. It is *not* the God of the Bible and creation.
> 
> Their god would make them all into orphans.
> 
> ...


No more books, no more cliches witty sayings, sage advice or any of the rest of it. Either the experience will be a real personal one or it won't. i complete peace of mind that i have done my part.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

As long as you're sure about that TN.
BTW, did ya happen to ask The Almighty, "What can I do for YOU today?"
:doh:


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

TNHermit said:


> No more books, no more cliches witty sayings, sage advice or any of the rest of it. Either the experience will be a real personal one or it won't. i complete peace of mind that i have done my part.


I certainly didn't mean to be trite or cliche'. I was attempting to be succinct.

You will do what you must do, of course. I hope the best for you.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> As long as you're sure about that TN.
> BTW, did ya happen to ask The Almighty, "What can I do for YOU today?"
> :doh:


My life was spent asking him that. He didn't seem to care. Neither do i . i do what i feel need to be done. So don't lay that guilt trip on me Christian


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Whoa......no guilt trip intended.
Just trying to help you get the response you asked for.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> Whoa......no guilt trip intended.
> Just trying to help you get the response you asked for.


your talkin to the wrong person


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Evidently


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I just got my site up where the "foundation" of my spiritual life can be seen. I thought some of it might be helpful to some of you; and please know I am still growing spiritually as I have a strong suspicion I will never understand the Word of God until I am sitting at His feet listening to Him answer my many questions.....

http://motdaugrnds.com/inspirational


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

farmrbrown said:


> As long as you're sure about that TN.
> BTW, did ya happen to ask The Almighty, "What can I do for YOU today?"
> :doh:





TNHermit said:


> My life was spent asking him that. He didn't seem to care. Neither do i . i do what i feel need to be done. So don't lay that guilt trip on me Christian


God Almighty doesn't NEED us to do ONE thing for Him.
He is Perfectly capable of getting everything done, Himself.

For me personally, I know He Loves me, and His Word has been preserved for me (kind of an instruction manual) so that I can know Him and His Ways.
It then becomes MY CHOICE.....

That's where the 'personal relationship' comes in.
It's between me, and God.....not what some building called church and 'people' deem to be 'what God wants'.:thumb:


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Does the Hand ask the Head "what do you want me to do today?" the Hand does what the Head desires. Without question, without balking, without ever having to know Why. The Head knows ways to strengthen the hand to accomplish mo betta stuff. May involve some pain. The Head desires an apple on a tree, the Hand reaches out to grab the apple. Simple as that. The Hand does not whine that the tongue gets to taste the apple...

We are the Body of Christ, IE the body, the whole of God. Included, Namaste. Not a bunch of Onward Christian Soldiers, marching as to war (ugh!). We have relationship by being part of the whole. 

Of course the joke is, someone's gotta be the butthole...


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## squirrelwhisper (Jul 3, 2011)

TNHermit....

God is drawing you to Himself, He wants to have a personal relationship with you. He put the desire in you to seek him, and have a relationship with Him . If it was not true, you would not have started this thread. Pray and ask for your eyes to be open to his presence in your life, he will show it to you.


Take the step of faith, pray and ask God to make himself known to you in the way you can understand, and in a way so that you can have not doubt that it is him and him alone . He will answer!!


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

squirrelwhisper said:


> TNHermit....
> 
> God is drawing you to Himself, He wants to have a personal relationship with you. He put the desire in you to seek him, and have a relationship with Him . If it was not true, you would not have started this thread. Pray and ask for your eyes to be open to his presence in your life, he will show it to you.
> 
> ...


Sorry no longer interested.
I have had my eyes opened during this latest experience. I was the one doing the drawing and wasting pretty much my whole life.

The gospel is the same as the Gospel of Obama. Tell the people how much you care and there is nirvana in the future and blame it on George Bush or the devil. Mean while we are told we are without excuse. If thaa is the way it is then there is no love.

People delude themselves with the place called heaven some invisible benefactor in order to make their faults acceptable to the world and themselves. While spending every dime they have to keep from going there.


I don't do the cliches and all the rest of that trip. If I am not intelligent enough to talk to and let know what is going on or have to go through some hell to teach me then again its pretty poor creation.
I look at reality and when someone speaks and doesn't preform then you have nothing to trust or have faith in.

I am not worried about hell as I have lived it. And I am sure if he exists and in his own egotistical ways he can make things just as horrid as he wants.

One only has to look at the universe and there may have been and initial creation and since that time everything else must have destruction before any creation can take place. The universe is rife with the destruction of things and peoples lives. And one little miracle every now and then doesn't even make the law of averages.


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

Personal relationship means listening, not just talking. One is to read and live by the ways that God teaches. If you dont live by the "taught ways", God cant reciprocate communication. Its one sided. I find all the answers to my problems have already been taught some where in that book of guidance. 

"He who does not work shall not eat."
&#8220;The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.&#8221;
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"
"Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall". 

I think people now a days dont take the time to learn whats written, (hence listen to God instead of doing all the talking.) They cant take constructive criticism and their life goes down the wrong paths. Even if not their life, but their perception of life. Life is tough, we are all mortal. We have it easy in America tho, we should all count our blessing.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

farmgal said:


> Personal relationship means listening, not just talking. One is to read and live by the ways that God teaches. If you dont live by the "taught ways", God cant reciprocate communication. Its one sided. I find all the answers to my problems have already been taught some where in that book of guidance.
> 
> "He who does not work shall not eat."
> âThe rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.â
> ...


Why does god constantly have to be defended and people tell me what I already have read and know and talked about. Its a constant stream of "well you need to do this and thus and you can't expect this" But when you ask them to give reason and logic they all shut up. Maybe some can conjor up god in ther wishes and dreams. I cannot

You dont read and consider several dozen bible,books and all the paraphanlia that goes with it and not wait for their meanings.

Timing and performance tell all.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

TNHermit said:


> Why does god constantly have to be defended


He doesn't need defended, ever.
He's God.
He doesn't 'need' us.
It is we, who need Him.



> and people tell me what I already have read and know and talked about. Its a constant stream of "well you need to do this and thus and you can't expect this" But when you ask them to give reason and logic they all shut up. Maybe some can conjor up god in ther wishes and dreams. I cannot


All you need to know is in the Word!



> You dont read and consider several dozen bible,books and all the paraphanlia that goes with it and not wait for their meanings.
> 
> Timing and performance tell all.


THE BEST Bible study / class I have ever taken is Bible Study Fellowship.
No religion, no denomination, no commentary or extra books.
Just God's Word.:happy2:


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Maybe what you aren't really getting is that God is God and you are not?

Took me a looooonnnnnngggggg time to grasp that fact. Took me even longer to grasp that God doesn't owe me diddly squat, or have to perform to my expectations. And that my believing or disbelieving didn't change reality a bit.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

nodak3 said:


> Maybe what you aren't really getting is that God is God and you are not?
> 
> Took me a looooonnnnnngggggg time to grasp that fact. Took me even longer to grasp that God doesn't owe me diddly squat, or have to perform to my expectations. And that my believing or disbelieving didn't change reality a bit.


AH

Good to know that all those promises in the Bible are BS. I understood and work since I was six. I also understand that he didn't have to make any promises. But he did. I wold expect him to honor that as I would anyone else. 
I also I have no desire to be god or act like on or be on a pwer trip to rule over others. I just read the bible and refuse to make excuse like everyone else does. i was under the impression that what he said was what was meant. I have never found a scripture that says when i don;t do what I say you make and excuse for me or come up with some cute piece of wisdom.


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

Over the years, I have had personal Relationships, with several of The Gods._ I talked to _Them when I had a problem. And it helped me along. I think mostly They leave us to our own devices. They expect us to Work things out on our own initiative. But They will help from time to time, if you Call on Them.
But some of Them are better in one situation. 
And, some are better in other kinds of situations. I think it helps a lot if you know which of Them you are calling on for Help.

And I think thee are different Families of Gods. For instance, the African Gods, the Gods of the African Folk are very different from the Gods of the Folk of European Ancestry, i.e., Germanic, Celtic, Baltic, or British Ancestry. And also different from the Gods of the Iberian or Italic, Folk.
I think different Gods look out for different Folk.

I have studied on this, over the years. And, This is just the way I see things.
I know The Gods of Our Folk. And those are the ones I talk to. And They are the Ones who respond, who answer, when I call out or Talk to Them.
Like I said, "It's just the way I believe. And I live my Life according to my Beliefs.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

TNHermit, You stated, "Sorry guys but if a life of suffering is for teaching and a god that says he loves yet is unapproachable is not for me. You have convinced me of that. As for my happiness that is not an issue and never was part of this for me.i am fine. I was looking for something more but the issue is that thanks to your way of life there are many thing i wont be able to share with others or as you say bless them with as it seems to be important to waste time.on this other. I'll have to find god another way as to me this all just making excuses for something that doesn't have to be as it is. I've spent many years in bible study, all the translations and lexicons and so forth. I just cant get it to read like you people do."

Here you sound just like me when I was in my 20s and was looking for answers. I literally drove everyone away because the way they were interpreting the Scriptures made no sense to me. Then I met an evangelist who had come from Iran to help with services in the state where I was living. He visited my home and for over 2 hours he and I discussed Scriptures. Not once did that man give me his words in answers to my many questions...not once! Each time I quoted a Scripture, he would point me to another Scripture; and if I had questions about that Scripture, he would point me to another and another. My "heart" was being satisfied by this manner of talking. (Later I found out he had not remembered our discussion. That he had been so tired he had slept thru the entire 2 hours.) 

I'm telling you this because it is NOT man who can answer your need to understand. The Scriptures are to be discerned "spiritually". Now I've not read all this thread, but let me ask you: Have you ever accepted the Holy Spirit into your life as commanded by the Scriptures? It is only this Spirit that can bring about an understanding of the Scriptures as it relates "personally"; and it is only the Spirit who can connect you to the Heavenly Father in a way that brings satisfaction. God is a Spirit! You want a relationship with God? You must have the Holy Spirit in your heart ready and willing to help you do this. 

That road to getting the Holy Spirit in your heart is different for each of us because God takes us where we are. I do so wish you an interesting and fruitful journey.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> The gospel is the same as the Gospel of Obama.


The Good News of Christ is the same as the good news of Obama??? 

_Obama_ is the way, the truth and the life? Obama is the Word and the Word is with God? And the Word spoke the world into being? _Obama_ will come again leading an army of angels? 
I don't even mind Obama as a president, but I sure _hope_ this isn't true! lol


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

I am still on page one of this thread. Excuse my tardyness.




Tiempo said:


> I didn't mention Christians.




The impression I get many times is, that folks step on other's toes and then complain when they cry ouch. So you did not mention Christians. Who did you mean exactly? Honest now. You know it is Christians who post on this thread and you are right there to jump in. 

I have no idea what kind of spiritual troubles Muslims have and if they worry about a "personal relationship" with Allah, considering that they are a strictly saved by works religion. Seems like this is mostly a term Christians use.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Forerunner said:


> Feeling the pain is one thing.
> 
> Taking it for its value is another.
> 
> ...



Further evidence is found in several places in both the Old and New Testament.
At one time we were all in Heaven, with God in spirit bodies, but even THAT wasn't good enough for some.
1/3 joined Satan and revolted, this is mentioned by Peter, John, Job and others or as some refer to it, the first age. We are now in the second, and there is one yet to come.

But the point is, living in heaven wasn't good enough for some and never will be, therefore we all have a choice. If you don't want it, you can go to Hell.

For the rest of us, including TN, we will have experienced exactly how hard it is to create our own heaven on earth, and to truly appreciate it when we are back in heaven again.
Keep soldiering on TN, and we'll all be back in the right place, together again.....this time *without* the discontent.


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

Originally Posted by TNHermit View Post
Well Ive read all the answers and I agree with a lot of it. At the same time I can tell you I have done all the same things that you have. But it doesn't and has never worked. At which time you would tell me I am doing something wrong and I would just a quickly reply that I haven't.
One thing about learning to be a good furniture maker is that you have to be and can not be afraid of being self critical and analyzing your ways,techniques and a every facet. And i can tell you I have done just that. So I guess I will let it go at that and not get into particulars for people to judge me on. I will say that I know of my mistakes but I carry not one iota go guilt.


Here is my take. First off, I am getting a bit long in the tooth and have been keeping an eye peeled to the question at hand. So I try to keep emotion out of it and get to the nitty gritty. Tried several churches and am where I have always been. By myself. 
Seems like in scripture we see that God dealt with a few individuals for specific tasks. Nothing mushy. Brass tacks. Moses, the prophets. Nathan talked to David from God. Seems to me, God started a model nation in the OT, " so the heathen shall know", in other words, to show the world how to live in the way of God. So they flubbed it big time and God discarded the project. 
Seems to me, that being born on planet Earth is a suicide commando, and God gives us an instruction manual and offers a way of escape via his Son, who ransomed us. 
It is a way of life and a certain exercise of spiritual principles. Seek you first the kingdom of God and his rightousness...I noticed that in scripture it says several times we need to overcome. What? We are to choose good and turn from evil. I guess we need to show our mettle. We plug along, keeping our nose to the grindstone. Running the race, staying the course. 
I must say though, in a couple of situations of pure desperation I realized/strongly felt the presence of God. 

I think what we need to do is turn to God and walk in his ways, not because of fear of hell or hope of heaven, but because his ways are good and the way to go. However we are not 'saved' by works and Salvation is a different story. 

I can relate to you as a furniture maker, as I was raised amid cow manure, sawdust and wood shavings. You know what kind of wood you want to use to suit a project. You realize the skill it takes, and that you have to follow the rules or the drawer won't close and the chair will wobble. I am sure there are many associations if one is so inclined. 

What about being in the "energy field" of God? 
What about the role of personality?


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