# CL abscess?



## sgian (May 26, 2008)

Does this look like a CL abscess under his ear? If not, what do you all think this abscess might be? It didn't respond to antibiotics (2 days of 5cc agricillin shots).

The only other problem he has is that his voice has become hoarse over the past couple days. He can still jump 4-5 foot fences and run. He doesn't seem to like that abscess touched.


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

CL abcesses are sometimes located under the ear, so I would isolate him and take him to the vet to have it lanced and the pus tested. I haven't heard that CL abcesses are painful, so there is the possibility your goat has a splinter in his face, but I'd definately not take chances.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Put your hands up and touch your earlobes. Now run your fingers down your jawline until you touch your adams apple. Now make a straight line with your fingers and touch your armpits, now to your groin going around the sides of your breast/chest, this is your lymph glands that goats get CL in. So yes this is a very typical spot. Vicki


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## Naturaldane (Apr 24, 2008)

It can also be a bot worm


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Sgian, it sure looks like CL. As suggested by GoatKid, isolate him to an area that if it ruptures, the area can be cleaned. Get a knowledgable vet to check 'um. You should become proactive on this as it could save lots of time and frustration. Check all goats in the areas mentioned by Vicki for nodules, take any goat you find with bumps to the vet also. 

When it breaks, you can be more certain. Go to fiascofarm.com and read about CL. I HOPE it's a splinter or briar absess. Best. Paul


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

It looks just like a CL abcess and its in the perfect spot.......It also looks like its about ready to rupture. Treat it like the plague!
If he is a favorite, then I might take a chance on letting it finish ripening(isolated!!), but if he is replacable, I would get rid of him responsibly now.
If you decide to have it tested, you should have the vet cut it out whole, asap and send it off to be cultured.
Putting him down is the responsible thing if you decide not to keep him. This way the disease is not passed on to someone else.
The meat from a CL positive animal can be eaten. Though I personally wouldn't eat the meat of a goat who had *internal* abcesses. I have butchered two CL positive animals in the past and finding no internal abcesses, we ate the meat. We burnt the hide, offal, head and feet.
Be aware that the rest of the herd may be CL positive as well if this turns out to be that.
Sorry for your troubles.


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

He (Stinker) is isolated now, and we took him to the vet this morning. The vet took a blood sample and a sample of pus (white with a tinge of green). He is going to culture it and send it off for testing. The vet didn't want to lance the abcess or doing anything else to it because it would get all over the place and then I would have to go around sanitizing everything Stinker rubs up against. The vet also said that if it is CL then Stinker would die of it.

I thought that the CL abcesses were external on goats and internal on sheep?

Right now he is our only mature billie. Our other billie is less than a month old and there is another thread here about his problems.

I would not sell Stinker if he was CL positive unless the buyer knew he is CL positive and doesn't intend to keep him around other goats. That is one thing that bothers me about sale auctions, how people take sick goats there to sell and spread disease around to other herds. Where is these peoples' sense of ethics? I'm not sure if we will continue breeding him at times when he won't have open sores, until we get another billie; or if we will try to slaughter and eat him. He is a lovable goat, despite his confusion about his sexuality and overly enthusiastic efforts to get attention.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I will keep my fingers crossed that the test comes back negative


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

If his test is positive, I would not recommend keeping him and I certainly would not use him on your does. I also would not take him to an auction where someone might buy him as a herd sire or pet. The best options would be to either slaughter him, yourself or sell him directly to a meat buyer/slaughter house.


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

Is the inner membrane of the abscess normally white?
Will soap and cold water kill CL if it gets on clothes? Or colorsafe bleach, soap and cold water? We don't have hot water yet.

I lanced the abscess today with a vertical slit from a razor blade. It was painful for Stinker. I didn't want the abscess to rupture on its own and get all over the pasture he is quarantined in, so I figured I would drain it when I could collect and burn it. (We intend to keep him until the test results come back, and then slaughter him if the test comes back positive.) The pus was like toothpaste. I kept trying to squeeze it out until blood was coming out, but I could see a white wall inside the abscess even after I couldn't get any more white stuff out. I caught it all on cardboard which I burned along with the rubber gloves and paper towels I used for administering iodine, then I bleached the ground and gate where it might have fallen. Also I applied iodine to the abscess before and after the cut, in addition to applying iodine to anywhere blood dripped down his neck. I did not see any stuff get on my jacket, but my wife was concerned about washing it in the washing machine anyway.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Ouch! Poor Stinker  Did you have to stitch it up?


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

I didn't have to stitch it back up. It kept wanting to close back up as I was squeezing stuff out, so I had to reopen it a couple of times. I just checked on him, and it doesn't appear to be oozing anything. However he is upset with me still, he would eat the treats I gave him (weeds) but then would walk away complaining with those hoarse horn like sounds he makes.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

how you describe the toothpaste like content sounds very much like cl to me.
the puss (white stuff) would have been the ideal material to test for this disease.
blood testing can be a bit tricky at times because of the nature of this disease but the content of an abscess will always give an accurate result.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Everything he touches with that open abscess becomes infected with cornybacterium for months, maybe years. An open abcess even one you think is clean is like walking around putting the all over your place. There is no way until it is healed 100% he should be anywhere on your place. Why rules prohibit open abscess at shows.

CL used to be called cheesy gland because from cottage cheese to cherve from a new abscess to a ripened one, yes the enterior is like peeling an onion skin that has cheese inside it. In fact the word Caseous means cheese, Lymphanditis means the lymph gland, hence the word Caseous Lymphanditis, the caprine disease of corybacterium. Vicki


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## Tracy in Idaho (Dec 8, 2002)

Keep in mind you can have a negative blood test, and a positive culture.

It sounds textbook classic CL abscess to me. Keep in mind that you should be feeding him last, touching his pen or him last. Every time you go into that pen, you need to bleach your shoes and preferably strip all your clothes before you go anywhere else on your farm.

Soap and cold water isn't going to cut it. You need a chemical disinfectant and/or hot water and bleach.

Treat this like ebola! And humans can also contract CL -- do NOT be handling this goat without gloves and long sleeves on. Burn all material that touches him.

Here's some more info-
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl.shtml

Tracy


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## Naturaldane (Apr 24, 2008)

If CL is trasmitted to humans, how is it safe to eat the meat?


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

i do not want to eat meat from a diseased goat.

i guess cooking very throughly will destroy the bacteria.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

When do you get Stinker's test results back? And how is he doing today?


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Naturaldane said:


> If CL is trasmitted to humans, how is it safe to eat the meat?


It is only transmitted through the puss that is in the abcess. There is no puss in the meat. The abcesses do not occur in the meat. 
I would not eat the meat from a goat with an open, draining abcess or internal abcesses. But I would have no problem with(and have in the past) butchering a goat who had only an external unripe abcess on the outside. The abcess comes off with the hide and is not a problem.
And truly, the cases of humans getting it is *extremely* rare.


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## Tracy in Idaho (Dec 8, 2002)

I believe in humans, the most likely scenario is skin lesions  I did find this tidbit from Australia that says it's not as uncommon as previously thought -- and that the mainstay of treatment is excision of the affected lymph nodes. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9114145

I don't think I could bring myself to eat an abscessed animal....I'm not that hungry yet.

Tracy


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

The vet was supposed to send off the samples yesterday, and said that I should know within two weeks. Other than loneliness at being by himself without any goats or people to be in the pasture with him, Stinker is doing fine. He is a big, otherwise very healthy Spanish/Nubian mix who stands well over 6 feet tall on his hind feet and can jump fences higher than any other goat I have (he is being contained so far with a fence almost 6' tall). As far as worms or other diseases, he had been the hardiest goat of them all. And he is a big baby who loves attention from anybody but dogs. He has already forgiven me for lancing that abscess. It would be a shame to have to put him down.

Could it be anything other than CL when he has that cheesy pus in his abscess?

Also, he has already been bred with some of my other does, and I suspect that at least one of them is pregnant. Could his semen have passed CL to them? Also, one time when my wife was working on a rope he came up behind her and ejaculated onto her face and shoulder. Some of it got into her mouth, but she rinsed repeatedly and got very upset when I made a joke about it. (He ejaculated quite often and sometimes for no apparent reason.) We got kicked outside at the vet's office when he greeted the vet with an ejaculation (and then I was told to put him in my truck because he was going after straw on the ground, feed bags, and ferns hanging from the eaves), he ejaculated in the back of my truck when a lady came up to take a pic of him, he ejaculated when he got his first look at the 6' fence I built for him, and so on. We won't go into his breeding behaviors. ). So should I be concerned about the semen too? If so then much of my property could be contaminated since he was so easily excited and I had so much trouble containing him (once he watched me add extra barbed wire around most of a pasture with a seemingly bemused look on his face, and then when I was about 3/4 of the way done and starting to make sarcastic comments to him about not being able to get out anymore he hopped over an almost 5' high section I had just finished and nonchalantly started browsing on the other side of the fence.)


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

OMG! Stinker! that is soooo funny. Thanks for giving me a good laugh before heading to bed. He sounds like such a character...looks like one too. :rotfl:


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

No he isn't ejaculating CL bacteria all over your farm 

It's really contained in the abcess and the material that comes out of it until it is healed 100%.

Yes of course lots of things cause abscess but this is exactly how you should treat it and use this pen he is in for your cl pen if you need one. Just don't lance them anymore, have the vet take one out whole for you, watch him so you can do it yourself, then send the abscess to the lab to see if it contains cornybacterium. If it doesn't contain cornybacterium than it isn't CL. The blood tesst is bunk and it really is going to give you false hope if it is negative...sorry. Watch him carefully if that bloodtest is negative...hopefully whatever the vet collected besides the blood will come back readable. Vicki


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

I was planning on drawing blood from the rest of my goats to test for CL (and CAE). Since the blood test is bunk, should I not bother doing blood tests for CL on the rest of my goats?


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

with an active case, i would blood test all of them. although the test is not as accurate as we would like it, a whole herd test will give you an idea. also more frequent testing for the coming two years will give you a good picture. 
you might want to call UC Davis and talk to one of the Dr about the test and reliability.
if you decide to keep this buck, make it a habit and go with your hands along the lymphatic way every couple of days. you can do that to your other goats too. any external abscess can be detected before it ruptures and contaminate your barn or pasture. most abscess will form at the place where your buck had it but sometimes they will show up at places where it is hard to see them and may go unnoticed, between front legs at the brisket for example. of course there is no way to see internal abscess and most goats that had external one, will have them internally too. 

you can talk to UC about a vaccination program for your herd.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

You also will not know with positive test results if they are positive because they have CL or have been vaccinated in the past. Vicki


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

best would be to ask previous owner if they had been vaccinated.
this is exactly the reason why most dairy breeders don' vaccinate their animals. the test can not differentiate between positive or vaccinated. only if titer is high in an active case, you'll know.


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

Stinker somehow got the gate open sometime last night. I looked out the window when I got up and saw him going through the compost pile. He was very proud of himself, and his belly was bigger this morning than it was last night. Most of the new growth on his favorite pear tree was also gone. He wanted attention, and then followed me back into to his pasture like a puppy without having to be leashed or dragged.

The abscess is healing up nicely and is much smaller now. We hope to get the results next week. If the abscess heals up completely, I would be tempted to wait until the next abscess forms to slaughter him if he has CL. He can't spread the CL if he doesn't have an abscess, right?

The dog didn't come out until Stinker was secured back in the pasture.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

he sure is a handsome boy and i understand your pain.
the problem with cl positive animals is not only the risk of spreading the disease with a ruptured external abscess but with internal abscess that you don't see. most of them are in the lungs and get spread through coughing and some are in the intestine and spread with poop.
if you still want to keep him on your place, make sure it will be, where you do not keep goats for the next couple of month ( or years, nobody has the correct answer yet) and where he can not get out.
i still think a vaccination program would work in your favor and strongly recommend to talk to somebody at UC Davis about it.


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

Have you gotten stinkers results back yet?


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

CL vaccines won't stop abscesses from occurring in already infected animals. Meat herds often vaccinate their herd when they have a positive so that they can use the vaccine as a cover.

I believe the blood test is fairly accurate and with routine testing, can be a very helpful tool. Over the years the test has been improved and while it isn't perfect, is fairly accurate enough to be a valuable tool in disease eradication and prevention.

Starting a tested herd requires an initial test, followed by another test in 3 months. After that, every 6 months or yearly depending on your herd. Isolation of all new goats and at least two testings before introduction to the herd - better yet, buy from a clean herd (but still test on your own property, as the stress of the move can cause the diseases to occur) If you show or interchange stock often, testing every 3-6 months is recommended. If possible, house the show string apart from your closed herd so you can test just the show string more often and cut costs a little bit.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

mygoat said:


> CL vaccines won't stop abscesses from occurring in already infected animals. Meat herds often vaccinate their herd when they have a positive so that they can use the vaccine as a cover.
> 
> I believe the blood test is fairly accurate and with routine testing, can be a very helpful tool. Over the years the test has been improved and while it isn't perfect, is fairly accurate enough to be a valuable tool in disease eradication and prevention.


unfortunately not true. the test is not as accurate as we would like it. still, the actual content of an abcsess is the only way to get reliable result.

also vaccination can help to limit the damage if one animal had an abscess. it may not 100% protection but some herds seem to have success with it.

i doubt meat goat breeder just vaccinate because they want to cover the true status, but instead try to minimize spreading of the disease.
a closed herd is only closed if none of the animals leave the farm, not even shows, and no new animals come in. it is plain too much work to have a show herd in a different corner of a property, having two separate milk rooms, and changing shoes and clothes before doing chores. no such thing as a closed herd in show animals.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

The other problem is that stress brings on abscess. So in their own herd over the years, vaccinated or not you may never see another abscess. Lots of cures to CL include the fact that no other abscess is seen, not much of a cure  I dealt with CL and CAE in half of our dairy for years, I wouldn't wish this on anyone. And once a doe was purchased and went through one or two abscess, surgically removed and tested, they rarely if ever had another abcess (8 years worth). We also know that the test is only reliable on the exude, and there is no new testing for cornybacterium...it's either positive for negative in the blood, and we have tests on a doe who was positive at UC Davis on exude and negative on blood the same day.

Vaccination may hold the disease at bay in the herd of origin.

Vaccination does nothing for goats with abscess, UC Davis did a paper on CL vaccination several years back during the boer goat boom, and all the talk of testing to get a level of this or that, then vaccination, then testing and the level was different if vaccinated...was debunked then. Positive is positive, no lab can tell the difference between vaccinated or positive for the disease and negative can still mean positive for the disease. 

Buying from those who are like minded about how they manage disease on their farm becomes key in being able to deal with disease on your farm later on. I personally won't slice and dice or formaline abscess, vaccinate or pretend that letting a communicable disease into the meat supply is ok.

I am glad this chapter is over at my farm and I don't want it back. Vicki


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Susanne, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

that's okay


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

We called today for the results, and left a message. The abscess has healed and there is now just a scab.

It is interesting to hear that stress brings on an abscess. My wife says she first noticed the abscess forming about the time that we tethered a donkey in the same area as Stinker. They had some things to work out, and then Stinker stopped being so amorous towards the donkey and kept his distance. Perhaps the stress was Stinker's broken heart at being refused by the donkey?


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Nothing worse than being refused by a donkey LOL! Let us know when you get the results...my fingers and toes are crossed for a good outcome for Stinker


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## crazygoatgal (Jan 15, 2008)

What happened?


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

We talked to the vet again today and asked about the results. By now we should be getting results for blood work on most of our goats (except the two small ones) but they haven't gotten anything in yet. The vet only took about a cc of blood and a cc of pus when we brought Stinker in, and I've been wondering if that has caused the delay. The vet seemed a little scared of Stinker's size, horns, and potential disease so he had trouble drawing samples. Stinker did not like the needles and is a big strong boy.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

How is Stinker doing? Any results yet?


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

Still no results. His lower eyelids are getting pale, but I don't want to worm him (rumatel) if I'm just going to slaughter the poor guy. On the other hand, I don't want to let him get sick while waiting for results, and now he has a possibly pregnant doe with healthy pink eyelids in there with him waiting for results and I don't want her to get a bad case of worms either. Not sure yet whether I will worm him.

I would prefer not to use this vet again, especially for goats. However, he is the only big animal vet I know of here. I'm going to have to start sending samples in myself probably from now on, it's been 3 weeks now.


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## crazygoatgal (Jan 15, 2008)

Is it normal for these type of results to take 3 weeks? Once Cornell LOST a blood sample of a little doe I suspected had Listeriosus and so we never did find out what she had. Made me soooo mad.


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

I had my CL/CAE/johness test results back in 2 days. Papers all say 7-10 days is normal. Call the lab. Someone is not paying attention, and I would bet it's the vets office.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

It's been 3 weeks! jeepers. You might just have to draw your own blood sample and send it in yourself. I have a feeling they lost it.  Poor Stinker


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

We got the results back today. Stinker has CL, along with two other goats (one of whom already died). We butchered the smaller one this afternoon (finding an abscess in an armpit and another in the brain), and we plan to butcher Stinker tomorrow.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I saw your other post...bye bye Stinker...you were a good boy and brought a smile to my face (I have his picture on my screensaver)


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

We'll miss him and it will be difficult to butcher him. The goat we did today was difficult too, she was a sweet goat who loved attention.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

I'm sorry.


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## T.Miller (Dec 1, 2006)

Sorry


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## crazygoatgal (Jan 15, 2008)

I'm so sorry, I can't imagine what you're feeling right now. I'll pray that you don't have to go through this again..and again I am sorry.


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