# Square Foot Gardening ~~ the negatives



## tallpines (Apr 9, 2003)

I've read the book.

I know all the positives of Square Foot Gardening.

Before I dive in, what are the negative aspects?


Actually, I've already begun the dive.
DH has 2 large trees cut down and a date with the saw mill next week to have them cut into 2 X 8's.

When we moved here 10 years ago, we had nothing but a hard sandy surface.
WE built raised beds out of logs and filled them in with some top soil, lots of leaves and old hay and a plethera of manure...(moved from the farm before we sold it). They were perfect for growing WEEDS!

Now the logs are getting pretty rotted~~~and we attended a 2 hour seminar on Square Foot Gardening,

So, rather than enclosing our current beds with the new lumber, we have totally cleared out 2 of them (about 200 sq ft). Another very large, old bed will remain for now --- has lots of perenials in it.

We will build our boxes and fill them with 100% compost and make an attempt at square foot gardening.

So, any tips, suggestions, ideas, opinions, advice, comments --- would be appreciated.


.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

1. Square foot gardening requires a lot more labor. You can't utilize machinery of any sort in the raised beds.

2. Without providing enough space for large root systems then you will be growing some very thirsty plants. Prepare to water them daily.

3. Plants in close quarters have the same problems as people in close quarters. Increased disease, decreased nutrition, increased crime rate ... well, maybe not crime rate, but everything else.

4. If you're a hungry bug looking for food, those raised beds will look like a free buffet table. Bunched up plants draw predators like crazy.


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## DKR82 (Apr 5, 2008)

Ernie said:


> 1. Square foot gardening requires a lot more labor. You can't utilize machinery of any sort in the raised beds.
> 
> 2. Without providing enough space for large root systems then you will be growing some very thirsty plants. Prepare to water them daily.
> 
> ...


I've only been doing SFG for 2 years, but I'd have to disagree (at least partially) with Ernie:
1. You don't need to use any machinery, because there's less that requires it (weeding, etc.). If you set them up right to begin with, it's actually much LESS work, IMHO.
2. Yes, early on, they do need a little extra TLC in the water department. But once everything's established and the leaves are shading the soil, you should be good to go. Also, I use lots of mulch, so it's not much of a concern.
3. + 4. Yes, and no. I companion plant with flowers and herbs, and make sure to create a hospitable environment for beneficial bugs, and haven't had too many problems. Keep an eye out, and that way you can fix any problem that may arise early on, before it gets out of hand.

I love SFG, and combine it with other gardening methods (organic, natural gardening, etc.) for what works best for me and my family (3yo DS loves to "help!"). It really depends on what you're looking for (bigger yields, less work, being able to leave it completely unattended for extended periods, etc.), but SFG is an excellent option for a lot of people!

To answer your initial question...the only thing I've had any problem with is corn...although I don't think it was necessarily anything to do with SFG. I followed Mel's directions for it, it grew great (everyone was amazed at how much corn I had growing in a 4' square area)...but never produced any corn. I have one 4'x4' bed and one 4'x8' bed. Last year I had tomatoes, cucumbers, zucchini, eggplant, summer squash, bell peppers, jalapenos, acorn squash, green beans, lettuce, spinach, bush beans, carrots, radishes, peas, plus my companion flowers and herbs. Everything did great! This year we're trying potatoes, sweet potatoes, onions and okra for the first time. I'm so excited! lol

DK in KS


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## sleepgrins (May 10, 2008)

Also a sfg fan here of several years here. While I don't strictly adhere to Mel's methods either, I garden with 4X20ft beds using organic methods. It helps me stay organized, the soil is SO workable I don't need machinery because it's never walked upon. Turning with a fork and raking smooth is it. I do have to adapt some of the plant spacing recommendations=peppers in a 1x1 square? No way in Texas, so they get spaced much wider. I find it an enjoyable way to garden with no drawbacks.


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## tallpines (Apr 9, 2003)

So-----you recommend the 4 foot wide beds?

The County Extension Agent who made the presentation we attended spoke of using 3 foot wide beds.
(He has a very short wife).

Are the 4 foot wide beds comfortable to work with?


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I have almost always used 4x8 foot beds without a problem as long as both sides are easily accessible.
The best reason for having them is to be able to make superior soil and hold it for year after year- no compacting, easy to work- as deep a you are willing to work it.
The bad things are obvious- lots of work to start but if maintained, never having to work that hard again. Most wood will have to be replaced sooner or later- so cost there.
I have learned never to let any amended soil stay uncovered even for a day. You're right in that weed will love to grow in such fine soil as well as any vegie. If you cover it with a mulch asap, and only uncover the mulch to plant, your weed battle will be so much less. This is especially true with most compost based soil as anything that has composted, unless hot composted and immediately put into beds, will have seed in it or on it.
I have used raised beds because of the shortage of water (and pitiful native soil.) With raise beds I run soaker hoses in the beds, under the much, and get water right where it needs to be and nowhere else. For me it saves water.
I have never done a market garde but I do wonder if growing that in a square foot way is reasonable.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

I have 4 foot wide beds and do see where as I get older that could be hard to reach. 

I would look into making them 3'6" wide and not using the outside 3" if they are very tall/deep. Plants with close spacing don't do as well for me close to the sides. I think the extra soil to the outside of the might help.

Tomatoes can really be a pain. Unless you keep them back to a single vine there just too close with his recommendation of 1 per foot. I put mine i seperate containers because of that. I also haven't had any luck with other vining plant.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

> Tallpines- in your OP, you wrote:
> 
> _We will build our boxes and fill them with 100% compost_


100% compost? This may not have been what you meant. But if so, compost should be mixed with soil to grow in... Contingent upon the soil, 50% compost/50% soil has worked out very well for us. In other cases, 25% compost/75% soil (that soil was better) worked out well.

We grow in raised beds utilizing a number of methods, including Sq Ft Gardening, French Intensive, and Companion Planting. This is our 3rd year, too. My pictures speak for themselves on our results:









This picture taken when most of our garden varieties reached maturity. The garden area is 2,500 sq ft of raised beds/paths. 









View inside the garden area of part of the upper area.



















We use raised beds due to this being a wet cool climate. Raised beds provide increased heat, and better drainage. The only negative would be watering more often, which isn't an issue where we get this much rain!

Now, the Sq Ft Method? I prefer to use the spacing suggestions, altering as I see fit for the different varieties. My beds are 5 X 20, although 4 X 20 is better. It is easier to reach to the center of the beds! Down side to this method? I don't think the root depth allowance is enough for some of the veggies. We just made our beds deeper. That is as close to a negative as I could think of. I don't do the squares or blocks with strips of wood, or plant in squares. That is more work than the way I do it. With Companion Planting, I have had little issues with any insect infestations. We produced a LOT of fruit & veggies with this garden! The back garden includes strawberries, blueberries, thornless blackberries, and Marion berries (all in raised beds).


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## tallpines (Apr 9, 2003)

Beautiful photos!

Thank you for sharing.

Yes, I meant 100% compost.

The man who was teaching the meeting we attended stressed it.
He said the minute unheated soil of manure is added, the weed seeds will prosper. He did suggest the addition of vermiculite and peat moss but said his own gardens were 100%.

He gave us a source for "good compost" that is about a 70 mile drive for us.
And, one reason I was extra impressed with the source is because last year when I visited with Jd Belanger, he said he went to the same place for all of 
his compost....(although I don't know if Jd uses 100% or a mix)

Now, I'm getting to the age where I don't have too many extra years left to "get it right". I especially don't want to start out adding weed seed to my new beds.

He said for some things (like potatoes) an extra 4-6 inchs of side height 
may need to be added to the box.

I've not yet finished with Mel Bartholomew's book, so I'm not sure what his recommendations are.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Glad you liked the pics 

The "organic weed-free" soil we used was purchased by a local nursery and had that mixed with 50% Organic Oly Mountain Fish Compost. It was great the 1st year, but weed seeds do come with the wind... We live near the woods, so there you go. Also have dandelions on our property to spread the joy of their cheerful yellow blooms and their eventual seed & weed fun. It is fun to see what comes up from what the many birds drop. They plant sunflowers around the property in interesting places!

The variety we grew was diverse and we grew corn which produced ears (here in Western WA, no less). We side dress with bunny manure, too (will have aged chicken manure to use now---yayyyy!). Also, grow Comfrey to give other plants Nitrogen boosts, ignite the compost pile, feed our chickens, rabbits, and serve for medicinal purposes. Great stuff!

On the intensive planting method? There are less weeds no matter what, due to less "free soil to invade." Also, spacing for maximum yield does require more amending. I didn't think that was any big deal and the benefits of this method all the way around worked great for us! 

I've learned, the hard way, to keep on the gardening tasks, prepare beds for Winter better, and also plan for rotation.


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## Jenn (Nov 9, 2004)

If you use mulch as I do there may be slugs. Spacing recc may be wrong but probably not for you in WI. I also had crazy tomatos and will stake them this year. 

My biggest issue: depth of soil in beds sinks every year- maybe because I used almost pure compost, and tried hugelkultur when I first set mine up on my clay hillside. But every year I add composted leaves and, whenever the wood chip paths are really broken down and starting to grow weeds, I shovel that dirt in to the beds as well.

I stay on top of the weeds and have little problem after my first year of putting grass clippings with grass seed as a mulch- grass is my biggest weed with nutsedge being my toughest to kill off (it's in my asparagus!)


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## ronbre (Apr 26, 2009)

well if it is growing weeds, it is growing something..pull the weeds and plant it.

the trees are rotting..of course they are..but they will feed the garden..people do that on purpose ..it is calle "hugelkulture"..check out threads about it on www.permies.com forums..

if you want them to not rot you'll have to use non rottable stuff..but rotting isn't a bad thing when it comes to feedinig plants.

i think everything you've done is fine..except you gotta pull out the weeds and put in the plants and water them well..then you shoul have gardens like the ones pictured


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I don't want to seem argumentative here, and I certainly don't want to steer you away from any particular gardening method you decide upon, but you DID ask for the negatives here and I think you're getting a slightly skewed picture.

First, take a look at lorichristie's beautiful photos. I see a couple of hoses and faucets in them. Then take a look where she's from ... the Pacific Northwest, arguably the best climate with the most rainfall in the entire United States. A gardener's paradise! You're in Wisconsin on top of sandy soil. Not too far from me. 

Second, I have always understood the purpose of square foot gardening to be "maximum nutrition in minimal space". I don't understand how raised beds full of inedible flowers is going to accomplish that for you.

Finally, you have to consider your needs and space requirements. If you're old and infirm then kneeling over a 4 feet wide bed is going to be a lot easier for you, even if it takes more work than a typical machinery-run garden. Don't make the bed any further across than 4 feet or you'll regret it the first time you fall into the bed trying to reach the middle. And I'm an advocate of maximum spacing between plants primarily because I've got 5 acres to work with, not 2500 square feet.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.


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## Kumquat (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm not sure I'd call them negatives, but there are a few things to keep in mind. A raised bed is essentially a very big container, and you need to treat it as such. It's going to dry out faster in hot, dry weather, so you need to stay on top of watering. 

The plants' roots are competing for the limited amount of soil. so you need to make sure the mix is fertile or fertilize on a regular basis. A soil test is cheap, and will tell you what you need - that's one thing I definitely recommend if it's your first time trying the method.

Personally, I find the recommendations a bit iffy when it comes to spacing. I've had better luck going up a spacing - if the book says every three inches, plant them at four, etc. I think you get better yields, even with fewer plants, and healthier plants. That's going to be influenced somewhat by your climate and how good your dirt is.

Be careful of what diseases are common in your area. Some viruses are more prone to show up when air circulation is poor, for example. If that's true in your area, take care with how you plant the garden. (Don't surround the outside edges with tall plants that'll block air flow to the center.)

Weeds happen. Most of them, around here at least, are airborne. Keep on top of them, and they don't become a problem. Let them go to seed, and you're creating more work for next year.


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## Saffron (May 24, 2006)

I have a couple of sfg. The biggest negative for me is the size 4x4, it is just too wide for me. I am younger and healthy and of average height. I really regret not making them 3x5, my arms just can't reach the center without resting on the soil.

I love the sfg - but you want negatives.

I use the sfg to plant 1-2 different items only in each square. Such as cucumbers and tomatoes. My sfg are made with cinder block with the holes facing up and soil in the holes. I use these to plant marigolds in the corners to keep the deer away - it works here! - and occasionally put a small plant in the holes for something I only want a few of or to try.

Make sure to put down something between the beds in the walking area or the grass that grows there will attempt to overtake the sfgs.

I don't know about some of the things regarding nutrition as I don't plant as close as the book states.

Watering is key! They require lots of water during hot, sunshiney days as the ground dries out fast and the plants wilt easily.

Make sure to plant the taller items in the middle row.

Something I am going to try for the next set of sfg we build is to make the 2-2.5.5 feet wide. I'm thinking of pairs of sfg with a small walkway between two and a main walkway between pairs. Then plant tall items, such as beans, tomoatoes, corn at the back of each sfg with something smaller in the front. I should be able to reach both sides this way, but is will allow me to walk between the sfg to pick any fruit from behind that I can not reach.

Have fun with it! I use both types, row and sfg


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

I scanned the book looking for the advantages. He kept coming back to "it's small, thus it's quick and easy". Well, I don't want small! I don't want to crowd the plants, I want maximum production per plant, not per foot, because like Ernie, I have plenty of room. I want enough produce at one time to not only eat, but to preserve for later also. No need for machinery? I happen to like machinery, it makes my work easier. Even if it's just a hoe, wider spacing is nice because I can move the hoe quickly instead of threading it through plants to get the weed. I also don't want to bend over to pick weeds, I want to reach down with a tool and let it do the work instead of my back feeling it. 

If I had very limited space or simply didn't want to harvest as much, I'd give it a shot.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I have a wide bed intensive garden, with no sides on the beds. The beds are pretty much level with the ground, because I have put so much organic material in the pathes over the years. This keeps the moisture from leaving the beds.
I started out with mulch but gave up on it because of slugs.
The beds are 4 foot across, but I figure as I get older I will remake the beds to 3 foot across. The weeds are terrible and most have to be pulled by hand. I have spent hours pulling them. The best solution for that is to have as many crops per season per bed as possible. I harvest entire beds, can the food for winter and amend the beds, remove all the weeds, then replant.
Each year I am getting the weeds more under control this way.


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## Mistyf (Apr 4, 2008)

I use the square foot method, because I don't have much space. But I don't follow it exactly. I combine it with a little Ruth Stout. I mulch a lot. This saves me watering. I also don't follow the spacing suggestions. I give a little more room to my plants.

I am in my fifth year with this method, and I really like it. But, it's not for everyone. To each his own. For me, it is just easier than row gardening. My beds are 4 x 4, but if I had to set it up again, I would probably do 4 x 8. I set mine up by the original book, and not Mel's new one. I'm glad of that, in that mine are not boxes backed by weed fabric. Mine were placed on plowed soil. I did border each bed with landscaping bricks, so they are real permanent. I also like that they are easy to get going in the spring.


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## mellowguy (Jul 8, 2009)

I'm aware of the SFG method, and I probably do some of the things the book discusses, but what I do is raised beds. They are 4x12 to 4x18. You wouldn't want them any wider, and if you were shorter than 5'10" - 6', you may find the middle difficult to reach. Leaving lots of room in the aisle is great, because we have a seat on wheel that works wonderfully.

On the need for mechanical tools, I'll agree with the ones that posted earlier. Turning the soil with a fork takes less than 5 minutes (yes, literally) for 4' x 16' foot raised bed. I have about 600 square feet of raised beds (excluding the asparagus, perenial herbs and berries which are also in raised beds), and although I tend to turn the soil as I plant over several weeks, I could easily turn all the dirt in all 600 square feet of beds in a bit more than half-an-hour. Not much more time than it takes me to get the tiller out, till, and put the tiller away (and yes, I do own one).

The only things I don't keep in raised beds are pumpkins and squashes (they take too much room) and potatoes (backfilling the plants is a mess in a bed).

However, I'm uneasy with what I know of the SFG method, and the idea of cramming plants in a small area. It may very well be that you put twice as many plants per square foot, but how is that going to help if your yield per plant is down 50%? I doubt that the yield per square foot exceeds traditional gardening, or well spaced raised beds. I use non-SFG raised beds because I like the tidiness, the easiness of care and the sense of organization (rotating crops and keeping track of what grew where in the past years is a breeze).


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

I don't do SFG, but I do have 3' wide beds - about 20' long. I find that with that width, I can easily reach into the center. The only negative found with that narrow of a bed, was trying to bend PVC pipe for a shade cloth hoop.

I double dug my beds, compost, some of the clay soil and cinder sand and NEVER walk on them. If the soil needs loosening, as it settles, it's easily done from the side with just a spading fork. I also use pine needles about 3" thick over all the beds to keep in the moisture. Pine needles also seem to keep out many weeds. 

I think you just have to work at it to find what fits you best.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

> Ernie- First, take a look at lorichristie's beautiful photos. I see a couple of hoses and faucets in them. Then take a look where she's from ... the Pacific Northwest, arguably the best climate with the most rainfall in the entire United States. A gardener's paradise! You're in Wisconsin on top of sandy soil. Not too far from me.
> 
> *Thanks, I'd have to agree. Great place to garden EXCEPT you combat "too much rain, standing water, poor drainage, soil coolness, don't always get enough sunshine for our tomatoes, and this is slug heaven."
> Second, I have always understood the purpose of square foot gardening to be "maximum nutrition in minimal space". I don't understand how raised beds full of inedible flowers is going to accomplish that for you.*


*You really only see parts of the front garden bed area. The lower area, we have 5 X 20 beds for Blueberries, Raspberries, Strawberries, Potatoes, Egyptian Walking Onions, smaller sq beds with pergola's built over them for Marionberries, Thornless Blackberries, Green Grapes, Red Grapes, and Kiwi's. In the upper garden area, we grew (5) different types of Potatoes, 4 different types of Pole Beans, 2 different types of Bush Beans, Pineapple Strawberries, Artichokes, Egyptian Walking Onions, Elephant Garlic, Swiss Chard, Gourmet Salad Lettuces, 2 different types of Brocolli, Cauliflower, Spinach, Beets, 6 different types of Tomatoes, Green Asparagus, Purple Asparagus, Comfrey, and Carrots. We use soaker hoses when we need to water. Watering is done based on how much rain we get. To this last part, I must first point you to "Companion Planting," also adding that I choose to integrate my Herbal Tea plants in the garden. Now, they do make pretty flowers, I must admit (Anise Hyssop & Bee Balm). Now Nasturtiums are edible, both leaves and flowers (yes, we eat them). The Marigolds are well known pest deterrents! Borage is an edible herb (I like the flowers) and yes, another Companion (tomatoes love them). I also have Italian Sage plants, Horseradish, Yarrow, and a few other Herbs (above area and below area). There are actually zero "flowers" in the upper beds, just blooming Companions OR Herbal Tea Plants. I remembered there were (3) blooming perennial flowers I planted in my Thornless Blackberry bed (lower garden area). I love going out to the garden, when everything is in bloom to weed, too!

Now, how much did I grow? Enough vegetables to feed a family of six and also put up enough food via my dehydrator, sealing, and freezing to last us... Oh, we didn't eat it all, yet! I grew so many tomatoes, I still have bags of frozen whole tomatoes we haven't eaten, yet, either.*

Now, we have 6.68 acres, and have chosen to limit our garden space to effectively produce enough to feed us (only 2 with an empty nest), allow us to give away alot of produce, and have more than enough to put up. I also sell enough of my plants to pay for all of our chicken food, rabbit food, dog food, and all my seeds every year  Now, if I can do all that in 2,500 sq feet of garden space, I am very pleased. We also have a fruit orchard, a chicken yard, and we have reserved 5 acres of forest for a self-sustainable source of firewood. If I had more property, I would still garden this way, due to "increased soil temperature, better drainage, and warmer soil." The more space you have between plants, the more weeds you get. I have found that if I start with a weed-free bed, amend it, plant my plants, wait until they emerge, and mulch a bit with compost that there are far less weeds to deal with. It is letting the garden go too long without weeding it that lets it get out of control.

My take is that I take the best out of each gardening method and combine them. And Ernie is right that raised beds are best for cooler climates with more rain or you will end up watering them more. If you are in a hot dry climate, you are not just watering more, but your soil is now even hotter. When water is an issue, in dry climates, depressed beds are more advisable. 

On reaching to weed them, which has come up. Most of my beds are 5 feet wide. I have all kinds of garden tools and never use a hoe to weed. My favorite tool has a v cut at the end, a long slender shovel type tool. It is the best tool I have ever used to dig up dandelions with! I can stand and weed or sit and weed. I prefer to use a gardening pad or a seat to sit on. When I am reaching into the center? I place my gardening pad on the edge. I don't end up with a sore back from weeding, because I am in all different positions. 

Our beds run from E to W. The back of the garden gets the tallest plants (Pole Beans). The heights of the other beds range as they are 3 feet apart (shading isn't a problem except for Pole Beans or Corn). When you rotate, it isn't hard to compensate for a little afternoon shade by choosing varieties flourishing in it. I grow as much as I can vertically (harvesting is easier).

I wouldn't do only SQ FT Gardening due to the blocks/square methods, with narrow paths made of wood, and wood separating the block sections. I loosely use some of this methodology married with other gardening methods


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

lorichristie said:


> The more space you have between plants, the more weeds you get.


If you do nothing about it, that's correct. But the space allows me the ability to cultivate faster than if they were close. I use both machinery and hand tools. Around here peoples biggest excuse not to garden is that they "can't keep it moist enough, it always dries out". Putting the plants close will exacerbate the problem. Plenty of people love SFG and I'm not putting it down, but you must know your climate and soil to make it work. It seems to be the current fad and I hate to see people fail with it and think it's because they just don't have a green thumb and they give up gardening because of it. 



lorichristie said:


> I have found that if I start with a weed-free bed, amend it, plant my plants, wait until they emerge, and mulch a bit with compost that there are far less weeds to deal with. *It is letting the garden go too long without weeding it that lets it get out of control*.


I added the bold to point out the most important part of weed control. I don't let the garden have a "weed season". If I'm not putting in food crops, it gets a cover crop that will smother the weeds and serve as green manure when I turn it in. Weeding 1-2 acres isn't as bad now in my 3rd year as it was weeding 1/4 acre my first year.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I love SFG. But I don't do it anymore. I love it because it has given so many people an understandable system for growing fresh food. It teaches a LOT and breaks it down into manageable pieces. SFG, gave me my start in gardening - it was great! It is especially nice-looking if you live in a suburban area. For many it is exactly what they need. BUT...here's why I don't do it anymore: this is just for ME. I am not criticizing anyone else - this is why it didn't work for me. There is a difference in using SFG than in using raised bed in my explanations:

1. My garden is WAY too big. I have 7000 sw ft.....though I know some have huge SFG, it was too much for me to deal with in expense and all the building. I do have some raised beds- I don't do sq ft in them. Boxes are expensive to build and the recommended soil mix isn't cheap either. It drastically raises the cost of gardening. 
2. Keeping the weeds down between the beds was a problem. Any mulch put down was quickly littered with soil and weeds grew in it. leaving grass there wasn't an option for the kinds of grass I have had to deal with -bermuda being one of them. The roots invaded into the beds no matter what I did. The higher the bed, the harder to keep the stuff out.
3. One of the biggest advantages of raised beds is that it warms the soil earlier in the spring....not all areas of the country need that. In fact, some would be better off sinking their garden beds. I found this to be true in TN. My raised beds dried out way to quickly in that kind of heat. 
4. I found following the instructions tedious. Tucking things in here and there made it harder to weed except by hand - not even a hand hoe. 
5. I started having problems with the beds having too much soil in them after all the composting and mulching and had no where for it to go - this was when I lived in town.. 
6. I found a lot of things I like to grow don't really do as well in the sq ft method. Tomatoes being one. Raised beds - yes, sq ft, no. Squash overran the bed. Corn? Not as much as I like to grow.
7. Though the premise of SFG is you get more production per sq ft, if you are buying plants, you have to buy more of them. If you are starting from seeds, again more seed-starting space,pots, potting soil etc. I'd rather just let the plant get as big as it is supposed to - rather than unnaturally dwarf.

I like wide-row gardening now.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

I admire all those who are able and willingly devote their energies to the intensive forms of gardening, but I have never been able to do it. With advancing age and RA, especially in my ankles, I have to be either upright, or completely on my knees(using an upside down five gallon bucket to get up and down), in the garden. Wide, or straight rows, with open space in between, is the only way I can do it. I also raise plenty of strawberries and potatoes, so I maintain a rotation system, using the 9n, plow, and tillage equipment to create new garden plots in that rotation. With that kind of a system, obviously I can't maintain nearly enough compost for that amount of square footage, so I incorporate green manures and legumes during the fallow periods for each plot--otherwise, my sand would return to a Lake Michigan beachfront condition. I also use copious amounts of saved leaves from the previous Fall to mulch in between rows and in the squash plantings to hold moisture and suppress weeds. What is neat for me is that this way allows me to still be in the mode(at least the _pretend_ mode) of the old-fashioned, diversified Indiana farmer I was, so many years ago--only today on a much smaller, manageable scale. I love to grow all things, and this is the way I love. I think one has to use whatever works for them, and the soil.

geo


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## tallpines (Apr 9, 2003)

I'm really enjoying reading everyone's opinions and preferences.

We had been dickering between making our boxes 3 or 4 feet wide.
Looks as if we will be going with the 3 foot.

Logs will be sawed this Thurs.

And we will probably experiment some with the way we prepare the boxes.
One with a backing, one without. A couple with 100% compost, some with a stronger mixture of soil from our old beds.......

One thing that has amazed us is the wonderful soil we produced in our old raised beds during the past 10 years.
We are so tempted to re-use that soil but dread the idea of introducing all the old weed seeds to our new beds.

But then again, with these new, improved smaller boxes combined with a soil that is improved with lots more compost, weeding should become an easier task. (Our arthritic knees and shoulders should not be as stressed).

Ernie---where are you located?


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

It stands to reason, with different zones, weather conditions, resources, and water availability (cost, perhaps), and also physical abilities, that raised beds won't even work well for some. My methods are NOT just SQ FT Gardening as I find that too confining and don't think there is enough soil depth. You will see combinations of rows and plenty of Companion Plant varieties in my beds. This has worked very well to deter pests. I know others, in my zone who apply some Sq Ft Gardening methods (not used in sole effort), who have excellent results like we have. Amending more heavily is offset by much less hard work. We don't ever till our garden beds! When the compost is added, I thickly layer it on top to smother any weeds (my goal is to cover the beds without perennials, to keep weed seeds from growing/landing in there). We then blend in the compost before planting, adding more as needed, in between rows or plants if not in rows. 

One of Mel's principles, which I like, is to figure out how many vegetables you need and plant what you need. He doesn't advocate planting hundreds of one thing and even warns against it. I am growing as much as we need and MORE on purpose. That said, I don't start any more plants than I did when we had a garden space. I preferred wide rows then, and my DH preferred single rows with wide isles in between. We graduated to raised beds also to use LESS soil/compost. Where you walk in a garden is a waste of soil.

"Larry" up the road is 84 years old, gets out his rototiller every year. He tills at least 1/2 an acre up, adding compost, and then plants it. He and his sister, Evelyn, who is in her late 70s, do a lot more weeding than we do, and it is harder physical work. Since they till the whole area, they garden in rows, then walk in the isles between those rows (all that great rich soil being walked on). We have all our great rich soil in the beds, and walk on hard pan... Weeding doesn't take but 10-20 minutes/day, but it is imperative it is done. Letting it go is a headache. The most successful veggie gardener I know, uses raised beds, and weeds every single day. She works a full time job, gets up in the morning, has her coffee, and heads out to weed. Or, she will opt to come home from work and head out there to weed. Her diligence has paid off! I am aspiring to do a much better job of this  Since I covered a few of my beds thickly with straw, to overwinter, there were hardly any weeds! The ones I didn't? Yes, plenty of little weeds to contend with. 

Squash in raised beds? I grew them on the edge of a raised bed and let them ramble over the side, not taking up any of my valuable garden space. You can also grow squash and any veggie that vines vertically. I grew my cucumbers, companions to peas, along with them on the same fence.

I should have added this "Companion Planting" link on my post  Regardless what gardening methodology you employ, this has been a proven method you can integrate and especially useful for organic gardening (ours are):

http://www.ghorganics.com/page2.html

In between our raised beds, we used hardware cloth and shoveled on the wood chips. That greatly deterred the weeds and there was no competing plants to spread into the beds. They were medium sized chunks, and not sawdust, so will take longer to decompose. Here, this is the least expensive option, as wood chips are readily available, get delivered by local loggers, and are cheap!

Tallpines- I don't recall the temperature, but you should be able to heat your dirt to kill the weed seeds (for those beds you are using it with). Also "hot composting" manures kills the weed seeds. Rabbit manure breaks down faster than the rest, also can be used fresh as it doesn't "burn" like other manures, can be used for manure tea, and of course can be


> hot composted


 like other manures. That kills weed seeds. I am hot composting chicken manure under my bunny hutches, adding other necessary ingredients, so there are no fumes to worry about. The key was adding the chicken manure sweepings once, covering, and then not adding more as the rabbit poo drops, and the other ingredients work together. In just one more month, I will be able to use everything out from under the hutches in our gardens beds. My goal is to have at least one big compost pile going at all times.

There is great information on the Extreme Composting Thread! Forerunner is a great resource for this.


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