# Does Solar Make Sense For Me



## Back2Basix (Dec 24, 2015)

Just wondering if its something i should look into. I see the 30% Fed credit expires in a year or so and Michigan is repealing "net metering" but would grandfather you in if you installed prior to deadline??

I'd install it on our garage roof that faces due South and have about 700sq ft of space to do it on. Looking at my electric bill, i pay $0.116225\kWh (wonder if my co-op would negotiate the $23.25 monthly svc charge if i went solar). Last month I used 410kWh with peak summer usage around 800-850kWh.

Wondering if it makes sense to do shortly or continue waiting until 1) Electric prices skyrocket in my area or 2) Panel efficiency is increased and costs drop.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Our farm is powered by Solar Power.

In my state a net-metering installation is significantly more expensive than an off-grid installation.

Keep in mind that solar power depreciates over 7-years. Within 7 years you will have written-off 100% of the expense.


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## Back2Basix (Dec 24, 2015)

Unfortunately we don't file a Schedule C or F so the ability and benefit to depreciate we wouldn't be eligible for


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Going by the Federal regs COOPs don't have to offer net metering at all. So you need to contact them for the rules. COOP at my ranch will do net metering to cover the usage only with and added $8 a month on top of the basic monthly fee.

WWW


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## Vjklander (Apr 24, 2018)

We put in a 5.5 KW Solar System in 2010. We got the Fed credit, State Credit and a rebate from Honeywell. Essentially cut the cost in half. From ~May to October, our bill is a $5.95 grid connection fee. It costs more in the winter, mostly for backup heat. We could live entirely off the solar with certain lifestyle changes, but choose not to for convenience. I picked up some smaller panels at an auction real cheap that I just feed to a DC heater coil hanging in my hottub. It does a pretty good job of keeping it fairly hot so it doesn't cost much to run the internal heaters in the tub, even in winter. I also have a gazillion solar garden lights I got a few cases of for $1 each. I put brackets all along my porch railings and driveway and rose garden, so there is always a lot of light outside. Ok, maybe not 'a lot', but some ...


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

I'm in Michigan and just put a 7.56kW system online Aug 2017. Our electric bills were around $125/month and in the summer went as high as $180 to $200. The system cost me about $13K to install on my own. DTE currently owes me 1 MW of power I have banked up in the past couple months. 

If you go about it correctly, do your homework and do the work yourself, it is well worth it. But if you have an installer do it, the price more than doubles and your payback suffers big time.. and the quality of work might suffer too.

In Mar 2017, DTE customers paid 16.1 cents per kWh.
in Mar 2018, DTE customers paid 16.4 cents per kWh. 

In one year, the cost of power increased about 2%.. and believe it or not, that's not bad! When I ran the math for our system, I went back through 5 years of our saved power bills and logged each month into a spreadsheet to look for patterns and found the average cost of electricity goes up just short of 1 cent per kWh per year. In ten more years, (2028) the 16.4 cents will be around 22-24 cents per kWh and probably more.

When factoring in the price of power, keep in mind that the figures DTE quotes are what THEY charge per kWh.. What they're not telling you is that you're also charged tax and other charges on a per kWh basis.. In reality, you have to factor those in too because you pay them now but won't be paying them with solar.

After factoring in fed credits, our system cost about $1.20 per watt, finished and installed. And I over engineered every part of it and have the absolute best of everything. American / German components, higher strength concrete, way over-sized feed conductors to minimize losses, etc. And we have a ground mount system on a sloped grade which added even more costs... roof mounted are a lot cheaper. I only paid $0.61 per watt for my SolarWorld panels.. 

Our payback was originally calculated at 5.3 years but it looks like its going to be more like 4.9 - 5.0 years. Our system is performing so well that I might even be plugging in electric heaters next winter because I'll have so much extra energy banked up.

Add to these considerations the fact that battery technologies are accelerating and it might become worth it to just go completely off grid in another decade anyhow. Heck, with the release of the Tesla Powerwall 2.0, we're almost there now... almost, but not quite.. If power rates were in the 20 cents per kW range, we'd already be there for many geographic areas with lots of sunshine.

The fact is, Trump's solar tariffs have increased the prices of the panels.. what I could purchase last year for $0.63/watt is now around $0.73/watt and going up slowly. They were coming down slowly, now heading the other direction. That said, solar is still worth it if you do the work yourself.

Put into another perspective, consider that you're going to always use electricity and its always going to cost you money. When doing the math, try to find an investment route that will return your money like solar will.. You won't be able to come even close to the financial benefits of solar from an investment perspective. The solar will pay for 30+ years or more.. and even then, it will keep producing power.


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## Vjklander (Apr 24, 2018)

Sounds like a great system! We have battery backup. Comes in real handy when the power goes out!


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Vjklander said:


> Sounds like a great system! We have battery backup. Comes in real handy when the power goes out!


Batteries are nice but expensive in the presence of other options. I live in a rural area and we lose power here two or three times per year when big storms come through... and it always takes DTE several days to get us back up. 

My Grid tied solar system's inverter has an auxiliary circuit called "Secure Power Supply" that will provide me with 2000 watts of pure sign wave juice if the grid goes down and the sun is shining. 

But mostly I just hook up my portable generator to the natural gas line and let it run the whole house like nothing ever happened.

I have another 5000 watts of panels + FM80 charge controller and 8000 watt inverter if I ever need to go fully off grid.. all protected in a Faraday cage.. just in case.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Murby said:


> Batteries are nice but expensive in the presence of other options.


Nice to have 'other options' 





> ... I live in a rural area and we lose power here two or three times per year when big storms come through... and it always takes DTE several days to get us back up.


In our township the grid power goes out every month.





> ... My Grid tied solar system's inverter has an auxiliary circuit called "Secure Power Supply" that will provide me with 2000 watts of pure sign wave juice if the grid goes down and the sun is shining.


That is a more expensive inverter system, I think.

Around here net-metering systems are required by law to go down to follow when the grid goes down. Then you can manually island yourself from the grid, before turning your home back on.





> ... But mostly I just hook up my portable generator to the natural gas line and let it run the whole house like nothing ever happened.


Again it must be nice to have a NG line out in a rural area.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

ET1 SS said:


> Around here net-metering systems are required by law to go down to follow when the grid goes down. Then you can manually island yourself from the grid, before turning your home back on.


Same here.. if the grid goes down, the inverter is required to also shut down.. In fact they come out and test the darn thing before even approving the system. 

I have a SunnyBoy SMA US 6.0-40.. There are two feed lines going to the unit.. The first large set is what it normally uses to feed power to the grid.. The second set feeds power to a stand-alone 120 volt -20amp wall plug.. If the grid goes down, it de-energizes the main lines.. I just flip a switch and it will energize the stand alone circuit.. 

But the sun has to be shining for it to work. Better than nothing but I don't count on it much.. If anything, just plug a battery charger into the circuit and let it charge a battery for me.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

My system is 'grid-tied' though it is not net-metering. My inverter has an 'aux-input breaker where grid power may be connected.

So we can be off-grid, or by flipping a breaker we can use grid-power through our system. But we have no ability to put power onto the grid.

If we go 3+ days without sunshine, we can switch back onto grid power [assuming the grid is up that day].


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

ET1 SS said:


> My system is 'grid-tied' though it is not net-metering. My inverter has an 'aux-input breaker where grid power may be connected.
> 
> So we can be off-grid, or by flipping a breaker we can use grid-power through our system. But we have no ability to put power onto the grid.
> 
> If we go 3+ days without sunshine, we can switch back onto grid power [assuming the grid is up that day].


Is that an Outback power system?


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Murby said:


> Is that an Outback power system?


My e-panel [inverter and etc] came from WholeSaleSolar.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Ah.. Midnite Solar.. good stuff..


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## Vjklander (Apr 24, 2018)

I've studied Arnold Toynbee and Oskar Spengler. I am absolutely convinced the American Empire and Western Civilization are in their death throes. No doubt about it. That is why I have set up the farm to be totally self-sufficient. And why I am friends with so many Amish. I've purposely taken less than my prescribed dose of meds so I have at least a years worth when the country goes belly-up. Tell the truth .... how many of you thought in 1989 that it was even possible in your wildest dreams that the USSR would cease to exist one year later. Anyone who says yes is a bald-faced liar. The difference is, back then we were around to bail them out. No one will be able to bail out the USA when it crashes and burns. How many of you thought in 1988 that in 30 years there would only be 1 country standing up in defense of Western Civilization, and that country would be led by a former KGB Colonel ???? I don't have solar just to save money, though that is nice. I have it so I have fresh water and heat when the USA goes down. That might seem pessimistic, but it is inevitable.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

"Vjklander"

Wow.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Well said...


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## Hullspeed (Oct 29, 2018)

If your state is getting ready to eliminate net metering, but you still have time to get grandfathered - consider establishing your net metering "account" with a large inverter but only install a few solar panels (to reduce the upfront costs). Later, you can install more panel strings on a timeframe that suits you. I was able to do this in Maryland, but each state's laws are different.


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## LAFarm (Mar 8, 2015)

Murby said:


> I'm in Michigan and just put a 7.56kW system online Aug 2017. Our electric bills were around $125/month and in the summer went as high as $180 to $200. The system cost me about $13K to install on my own. DTE currently owes me 1 MW of power I have banked up in the past couple months.
> 
> If you go about it correctly, do your homework and do the work yourself, it is well worth it. But if you have an installer do it, the price more than doubles and your payback suffers big time.. and the quality of work might suffer too.
> 
> ...


We put our grid tied net meter solar system in service in 2011. Like you, we installed SolarWorld panels in a ground mount set up. 15.3 kw and it has been the best decision we have made. Our utility bill is less than $10 per month and is the base charge for having service. Have accumulated over 9,000 kwh "banked" with our provider, so we have a small cushion should our consumption go up. We installed an earth coupled heat pump for our heating/cooling needs and added cellulose insulation to the existing fiberglass in our attic. The solar tax credits were a great help as our state had a 50% credit and the federal credit was 30%. Plus, since we installed them ourselves, all of our expenses were for materials alone. No regrets.


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## Hullspeed (Oct 29, 2018)

If you own your own system, you can make a little money selling SRECs (Solar Renewable Energy Certificates). You earn 1 for every 1000 kWh produced (regardless of your own consumption). In my first 60 days of operation I earned over $700 in SREC value alone and I had dollar signs rolling in my eyes. Then the SREC market plummeted in Maryland and now they're worth about 5 bucks a piece; oh well... Some states still have a high market, even today. My system will still pay for itself, but now it will be closer to, I guess, 7 years to break even. Feels great being a net producer!!


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