# twins, but cow didnt clean out?



## shagerman (Apr 10, 2008)

she is 5 years old. and a great cow, half holestein ,half black angus, this is her 3rd calfing session. and twins. they were born on wensday, and she has not cleaned out yet.. i am beginning to throw a fit about it, she is eating and drinking, just fine, but still no clean out,, i have called the vet and they said they dont clean cows out, and i questioned then about an infection. .tommorrow morning i will be on that phone again. either they will come out and give her antibiotics and clean her out or, youll see illinois in fireworks,, i know there is people out here thats better in this situation. and better at herd management. what would you do.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

Well, in our beef herd, we don't worry about it unless the cow is acting off. If she's still eating and drinking we leave her alone. I've read numerous articles where they have found that manually cleaning them can cause more problems than it prevents. Now, having said that if you're really worried, you could give her a shot of Oxy LA or some such.


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## shagerman (Apr 10, 2008)

i am worried, and ive never had twins before either so i guess im upset over nothing. but just very worried i could lose her or the twins, and babys are popping this week, all done and had to pull one so im anxious i guess,


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## rancher1913 (Dec 5, 2008)

i've never worried about it unless they start acting sick. sometimes you can't justify the expense of a vet. my problem with twins has always been getting the mom to remember she has two calfs--one will get left behind and i end up bottle feeding it.


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## shagerman (Apr 10, 2008)

rancher, i believe that has just happened to me,. she took the bull calf to the pasture and left the little heifer, im gonna move her in the morning to momma. i fed her some jersey milk i bought for tonight,


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

As for the cleaning out, I don't usually worry provided the cow continues to eat, drink, and act healthy as others have mentioned. 

With the twins, it's good to lock mama and both calves up close to the house in a corral where you can be sure she's not butting the "blacksheep" of the family into the next county everytime it tries to nurse. Once the calf is a couple of weeks old and solid on it's feet, it'll have enough gumption to figure out how to rob milk from here when the other is eating and do fine most of the time. 

If she's letting them both nurse just not mothering one of them I wouldn't worry about it. As long as they're both getting fed it will work out.


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

It may take up to two weeks for her to clean out. This is normal.

Genebo
Paradise Farm


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## jeff1981 (Dec 31, 2008)

we generally give 1 bottle IV CALDEX or 23% calcium within 24 hours of calving, this or a calcium drench seems to help them clean.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

You might want to ask the vet why they don't want to mess with your cow. Surely they would prefer to make some money, so there must be a reason. I kind of admire vets or mechanics who tell me I don't need to give them money.

I realize vets aren't always right, but seems people don't give them any credit for spending 7 to 8 years of study, plus their attending conferences. keeping up on the latest schools of thought, and their experience. If we can just tell them what needs to be done, maybe they don't need any education.

I had a cow not clean a few years ago. Yes, you need to not mess with it. Of course, it doesn't look good, but the weight is good to have hanging to remove it WHEN it is ready. You might just tie a knot in it to keep it off the ground.

My concern was breeding the cow back, but she took first time AI.

Yes, you could save your cow and grab that thing and rip it out and see her bleed.


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## matt_man (Feb 11, 2006)

Watch for a bad smell and hit her with 5cc oxy. Our vet said that is can't hurt to hit them with some oxy right away if they have not cleaned.

We just had a jersey calve 2 weeks ago and she passed most of her placenta but still had some retained. She ended up with a bad uterine infection even though she passed the other part of placenta within 36 hours. I could tell she had an infection because she still was standing with her tail slightly out and she had a "dead" smell to her. Still treating the infection and hopefully she will rebreed but we shall see. She seems to be feeling better and her milk production is up the last few days.


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## shagerman (Apr 10, 2008)

ok lets see if i can answer everyone. she is feeding both calves. but she got the bull calve to follow the heifer i guess just wanted to hang out with me,, lol anyways she is with momma in the pasture. and momma knows exactly where both are, and no she is not being pushed away, but i had also seen the heifer sneek some from a maid cow that has her own calf, so either way she will be fed, momma passed part of it today. and if i am right she should have 2 inside her, she passed 1 this makes me feel somewhat better, and momma is eating everything in sight, for a treat i give her, beet pulp with molasses, i swear she would cross the desert for that stuff.she has a pasture to eat from there is hay in front of them and grain 1 time a day. she seems better today and looks better, maybe i was way to worried, like i said i had never had this happen before, so i was worried for her and her babies, and my investment also.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

You can get stuff from the vet to give them if they don't clean out. We had a cow that had her calf early and didn't clean out. DH usually cleans our cows if they have trouble getting rid of the afterbirth. In this case the vet told him to wait, after a while the cervix shrinks and you can't get in there to clean, so the vet sold DH some stuff to flush out her uterus. Just keep checking the cow and calves. If the cow starts to stink and the calves start scouring, then you know she has in infection that she is passing on through the milk. We have had this happen several times over our years of raising cattle. It used to be a common practice to call the vet if a cow didn't clean herself, and believe me they didn't like to clean one out that had retained the afterbirth for several days, because it is a stinky mess. Now the vets tell you to wait.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

See if the vet will give you a shot of Lutalyse for her.


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## shagerman (Apr 10, 2008)

ok everyone, the twins will be 2 weeks old this coming wensday. a touch of the diahrhea, but other calfs are doing the same, momma is eating well and no smell as of yet, i am keeping a eagles eye on them, they are both drinking from mom, and others ,, they look good, but just not as energetic as some of the others, but they are smaller in size,


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

A placenta not passing for over a week is not normal or healthy. Yes, it does happen, and no, it doesn't usually make the cow sick. But it adds greatly to the possibility of the cow not breeding back as fast, in some very bad instances, it can scar the reproductive organs and the cow may never breed back.
Not cleaning out is a very good sign of mineral deficiencies in any animal, especially selenium and/or copper, and calcium. This is a very good indication of a borderline deficiency, not a critical deficiency.
And yes, a stressful birth can cause a retained placenta in the healthiest of cows. In this case, oxytocin, selenium and calcium can be used to help her pass it. If the cow doesn't have enough calcium in her system, the oxytocin won't work.
But if it is a common occurence in a herd with normal labours, its probably a mineral deficiency.
A vet can manually deliver the placenta in worst case scenario, but no vet likes this job, it SMELLS.


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## shagerman (Apr 10, 2008)

ok, the vet was out, and she had delivered both placentas, i never seen the first one, she does have a infection, and he did admister a shot to help the uterus go down and he flushed her, the infection was not bad enough to warrant any of this, but i had it done anyways, in 2 to 3 weeks she will get another shot, ,, i am just bothered, that they would wait on something like this, but she has been eating everything in site, so i guess the way they look at it, is if she doesnt eat, then its a problem,,, i wouldnt even do this to my own kid, let alone a animal. the twins i have supplemented with milk replacer, seems to have pepped them up also,


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## shagerman (Apr 10, 2008)

mineral problem. i dont think so. i have mineral in a black container,w/molasses. for them and its free choice and i mix mineral and salt in with there grain.,,so i do not believe it is that part anyways, calcium, maybe, there is selinium in the mineral. farm and fleet bag.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

As you say, she had delivered both placentas, so no, I doubt you had a mineral problem. And twins is more likely to cause cleaning out problems than the usual single calf. I was mainly speaking to those who seem to think it is normal for a cow to not drop the placenta for 1-2 weeks. Dropping it in the first 24 hours after birthing is normal. Anything after that is retained and is certainly not normal or healthy and is indictive of a problem.
Good to hear all are doing well.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

ozark_jewels said:


> As you say, she had delivered both placentas, so no, I doubt you had a mineral problem. And twins is more likely to cause cleaning out problems than the usual single calf. I was mainly speaking to those who seem to think it is normal for a cow to not drop the placenta for 1-2 weeks. Dropping it in the first 24 hours after birthing is normal. Anything after that is retained and is certainly not normal or healthy and is indictive of a problem.
> Good to hear all are doing well.


I am so glad you posted this. I was tempted, but didn't want to get burned. I so agree that it is not normal for a cow to retain the placenta. In our beef herd, if a cow doesn't clean herself in a day, DH gets her up and cleans her. The only times we don't do it is if he doesn't catch the cow before her cervix gets too small to get his arm in there to clean her. Those cows most always got stinking infection and their calves scoured. These were usually always cows that had trouble calving. We did have a Jersey that calved early, but wasn't dilated right. We had to get stuff from the vet to give her.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

While a retained placenta is certainly not NORMAL, they do happen, and most of the time they are not a big problem for the cow. Out of about 120 cows, we might have 2 normal births that don't clean. Twins and preemies usually retain, however. In our own herd, we leave any RPs alone and monitor them. Most of the time we don't do anything for them, but when necessary we will give an injectable antibiotic (LA 200).

It is now NOT recommended to manually clean a cow out. It has been found that this does more damage than what the RP causes. 

Some more info....
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/111300.htm

http://www.partners-in-reproduction.com/reproduction-cattle/therapy-retained-placenta.asp

http://www.livestocktrail.uiuc.edu/dairynet/paperDisplay.cfm?ContentID=163


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

It may not now be recommended, but in a few years, the advise will probably change, just like it has now. In early years, women gave birth at home, with the husband present. Then it was advised that women give birth in the hospital, in a delivery room, with only the medical staff present. Now the pendelum has swung back to going through labor and giving birth in the same room, with family members present. What may be considered the norm now will change or swing back to what was done in the past.
For our herd, we have had better results when DH manually cleaned the cow instead of leaving the retained placenta to putrefy and send infection throughout the cow's system. I am not suggesting that eveyone clean their own cows. Obviously, it takes some experience and know how before attempting to clean a cow or deliver a calf. There are pros and cons with this as with every other issue or situation. Everyone won't agree on the same action or advice. That is what is great about these types of discussions, one is able to pick and choose the most helpful info.


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## shagerman (Apr 10, 2008)

absolutely true, and i want to thank everyone for exchanging advise, it really made me think ,, and with twins. which we had never had before.. scared the bee geebees out of me, i was really worring myself over pretty much nothing.{ but to me it was everything.} and to me the stakes were too high against me.. so it seemed. i guess being worried, puts you in this mode. i have delivered calfs. without problems, then again, we have had problems, its all a learning experiance to me, and we had my jersey bred AI yesterday, just wait till she births, ill be all stirred up again.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

In the middle of beef and dairy country here so most vets are cattle vets. They reccomend cleaning manually, only after all other methods have been tried and then only after its been at least a week, as the placenta needs to start sloughing off the uterine wall, so that the uterus is not harmed. Then antibiotics should be used to help prevent scarring from an infection. If you manually clean or leave it to all rot out, a certain number of these cows will have trouble breeding back on time and some never will.
Manual cleaning is rarely needed if steps are taken at the first sign of a retained placenta.
Exactly, retained placentas do happen and they are not normal, so I take steps at the first sign of a problem.


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## onthespot (Oct 7, 2007)

I'm not a cattle person, but was just wondering to myself if she might have eaten the first one.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

You just need to find a vet that will do what you tell them to do.


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## shagerman (Apr 10, 2008)

absolutely true, and i want to thank everyone for exchanging advise, it really made me think ,, and with twins. which we had never had before.. scared the bee gee bees out of me, i was really worrying myself over pretty much nothing.{ but to me it was everything.} and to me the stakes were too high against me.. so it seemed. i guess being worried, puts you in this mode. i have delivered calf's. without problems, then again, we have had problems, its all a learning experience to me, and we had my jersey bred AI yesterday, just wait till she births, ill be all stirred up again.


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## kclementsdvm (Feb 5, 2008)

DJ in WA said:


> You just need to find a vet that will do what you tell them to do.


Is that what you really want? My clients pay me to do what is best for their animals, based on my years of training and clinical experience. Sometimes it is what they want me to do, and sometimes it isn't. 

What I recommend to my clients is that a retained placenta be carefully monitored but given time to come out on its own. Manually removing it can cause more problems than leaving it alone, as you can actually damage the lining of the uterus, making her more prone to infection and less likely to breed back easily. It is also very possible to tear the placenta during removal and accidentally leave pieces inside her, which will have a harder time coming loose.

As long as the cow is eating well, acting normally, and doesn't have a fever, no medical treatment is necessary. But if that changes, antibiotics and possibly anti-inflammatories are warranted. I will typically have them tie the placenta up as best they can, both to keep weight on it (use gravity on your behalf) and to keep it up so that the cow can't step on it and rip it. Everytime the owner goes by the cow, gentle traction on the placenta is fine. This can encourage it to come loose more quickly.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Cows often eat the placenta before you get a chance to ever see it. I have also seen coyotes who become "placenta specialists" Scouring pastures for afterbirth and never bothering the calves. Can be a great gig for the 'yote if the farmer catches on that it isn't bothering calves.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

I appreciate a knowledgeable vet to tell me what they think and offer advice. I also appreciate a vet that will listen to my ideas as well, especially about my stock that I know well. There needs to be a good balance. Thankfully I have found such a vet here. Though we moved over an hour away from her, I still have her do all the dairy calls, rather than get the vet who is only 15 minutes away. He is a jerk.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

We know our animals and have been monitoring the situation before we even call the vet. The vet sees the animal, maybe once and makes a diagnosis. What we really want is a vet that will listen to what we have to say and not turn us off like we don't know anything. A vet who listens to what the owner has to say about the animal will be more likely to make a correct diagnosis.


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## shagerman (Apr 10, 2008)

kclementsdvm .. what i want is what is best for my animals.no matter the cost when they are sick. or having twins. or just diarrhea, i have said that a few times already. i also have said this has not happened to me before and i was really worried, i was told not to worry about it, and she came out with a infection. i had the vet out. she had a shot and some stuff he put in her, to clear the infection, which if he had came out when i noticed things going on i believe i could have saved a step.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

Yeah, you need a vet who listens to what the owner says, but it is also good for the owner to LISTEN to what the vet has to say too. Obviously the owner needs to have some common sense, to know what/when to question, but it sure wouldn't hurt if he would actually ask the vet why he is doing something if the owner doesn't agree with it. After all, the vet did go to school for a # of years to learn stuff that most owners have never done.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

randiliana said:


> After all, the vet did go to school for a # of years to learn stuff that most owners have never done.


Absolutely. Unfortunately, no school can teach common sense. As a friend puts it, "common sense is just not so common".


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

I agree. Most farmers have been around livestock for years, in our case over sixty, because DH and I were both raised on the farm. With normal conditions most farmers are able to deal with the situation. We had the vet out form my Dexter not long after we bought her. You could tell that he was mentally scratching his head about her condition, when the vet tech said, "I think she is constipated," which was true. We had the vet out twice for this heifer and spent just about the purchase price. We finally used the shotgun approach ourselves and the heifer got better. So much for years of schooling.


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