# Whole Milk vs. Replacer



## mrstillery09 (Jul 12, 2012)

So we ended up taking our two doelings to the vet today. One woke up with green boogers and snot, I have yet to see her run, or play and she still intermittently grinds her teeth. Vet didn't diagnose anything in specific but gave a shot of nuflor.

The vet along with his assistants were unhappy we were feeding whole milk. They were saying whole milk is very different from goat milk and not as nutritious so maybe that's why the one in particular wasn't doing good. Suggested a milk replacer or canned goats milk.

What do you guys think? Should I switch to canned goats milk? Or supplement whole milk with it? Also, what are the problems with milk replacer? The one were concerned about seems so hungry but she will not suck on a nipple. She will suck on fingers, ears or try to eat anything on the ground but doesn't take to a bottle at all. We've tried all sorts of nipples and none have made a difference.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Whole milk is what I have used for the past <thinking, counting on fingers> four years. All have done very well on it. Some folks use milk replacer, but a good percentage of folk on here use whole cow milk with great success.

If the kid is grinding her teeth, she is in pain. Do you have banamine?


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

My little girl ground her teeth constantly until I finally found a nipple she would take. Stopped immediately when she started drinking :shrug: 

There was nothing she would take from a bottle, including fresh goat milk until I found the one nipple she would take. She will still refuse any other nipple. Stubborn little minx! I have my fingers crossed that this one nipple lasts until she weans.


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## mrstillery09 (Jul 12, 2012)

Pony said:


> Whole milk is what I have used for the past <thinking, counting on fingers> four years. All have done very well on it. Some folks use milk replacer, but a good percentage of folk on here use whole cow milk with great success.
> 
> If the kid is grinding her teeth, she is in pain. Do you have banamine?


We do not but I do think I will head out tomorrow and get some for her. Every thing I've seen and read has said to go the whole milk route. I have to admit I kind of trust what you guys say as you are all goat owners!



CarolT said:


> My little girl ground her teeth constantly until I finally found a nipple she would take. Stopped immediately when she started drinking :shrug:
> 
> There was nothing she would take from a bottle, including fresh goat milk until I found the one nipple she would take. She will still refuse any other nipple. Stubborn little minx! I have my fingers crossed that this one nipple lasts until she weans.


This gives me some hope. I've noticed the teeth grinding is usually when she acts like she is exceptionally hungry, but seems completely put off by the nipples we've tried. We tried a lamb nipple this evening though and she seemed pretty excited with it. We'll try it for a few more feedings though and see if it helps...I'm hoping it does!


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Keep us posted!


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

Stay with the whole cows milk. From my vet who also raise goats : "the problem with replacer is that it does not curd in the babies tummies which can cause the illnesses you will commonly see in kids fed only replacer" .... you can however, feed it half/half (vet prefers a 2 part milk to 1 part replacer) .... I have been feeding it half/half for 2 years now.
I don't know what is causing your babies tummies to be upset. I hope they get better soon


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Maybe this should be made into a sticky of some sort? I seem to repeat this a lot.

Tell your vet (seriously, tell this to your vet!):

Cheap milk replacers ("Cheap" defined as "once mixed up into liquid form, they cost less per gallon compared to whole cow's milk from the store") contain lots of things that are Not Good For Ruminants To Consume. Things such as rendered animal fats, which herbivores do not have the digestive tracts designed to get nutritional value from. They also contain high levels of bacteria that can be harmful, as well as complex proteins that babies have difficulty digesting. Along with the problem of not curding properly in the fourth stomach.

Expensive milk replacers (defined as, "once mixed int liquid form, can cost up to twice as much as store-bought whole cow's milk") are pretty good. They won't kill your kids, at least. However, they are made from milk BY-PRODUCTS. Leftover whey from cheese-making, dried skim milk from separation, etc. They are, basically, a mixture of waste products from food processing that have been mixed together in the attempt to make cheap alternative to whole milk. And they are more expensive than whole milk. AND the dairy products they contain come from cow milk anyway.

So, the cheapest, safest alternative we have found to fresh goat milk (or the second choice, fresh cow milk) is whole, pasteurized cow milk from the store. At least it IS whole milk, and not a mixture of by-products.

And while whole cow milk is not anywhere close to an EXACT match for the nutrients in goat milk, it is a far cry closer than ANY milk replacer.

Now, the suggestion of using canned goat milk from the store is good, but it is also expensive. If one can AFFORD to go that route, and has the desire to do so, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. After all, many of us here can our own milk and use it for feeding babies. The only thing wrong with that suggestion is that for many people, buying canned goat milk from the store is cost prohibitive.

~smiles~ That s the "why" of using whole cow milk from the store. Please share this with your vet, especially if they are going to be treating more small ruminants in the future. (This information actually holds true for lambs as well.)


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

What Caliann said.


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## mrstillery09 (Jul 12, 2012)

CaliannG said:


> Maybe this should be made into a sticky of some sort? I seem to repeat this a lot.
> 
> Tell your vet (seriously, tell this to your vet!):
> 
> ...


THANK YOU! I am seriously going to memorize this information...may even make some info sheets to hand out  This is not the first time, in less than a week, that people have acted like I'm torturing these guys for giving them whole milk.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Have you tried putting a pinch of baking soda in their bottles? That may help. I hope they start doing juch better for you soon.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

I have a TOTALLY different opinion than Caliann. I feed a good quality, all milk protein milk replacer when I bottle feed. It is less expensive than whole milk for me, (whole milk in walmart last week was $4.50/gal). A 25 lb bag of my replacer costs $45.80. A 25 lb of replacer will make approximately 16.6 gallons of milk. That means in order for me to buy 16.6 gallons of whole milk at $4.50/gallon, I'd have to spend $74.70. I wean at 8 weaks, so for me, it takes about 1 bag of milk replacer per kid to raise from birth to weaning. That means I can spend $45.80 for milk replacer, or $74.70 for whole milk. Not to mention I'd have to make multiple trips to the store to buy the milk vs. one trip to the store to buy a bag of replacer. Then if I fed whole milk, I'd have to heat each bottle, or I could just use warm water when I mix the replacer. 

My goat kids have always grown well on replacer. No scours, no stomach upsets, no bloating, etc. For me it's a super easy decision. Not only do the kids grow very well on it, but it's way more convenient and less expensive for me. 

The idea that milk replacer is "poison" makes me laugh. Some are cheap, yes, but that's why you research and choose a good quality one. Oh, and I've seen lots of kids raised on "cheap" replacer, like Land O'Lakes, and they do just fine too. I seriously think many problems from replacer come from improper mixing, feeding, or something like that. 

I'm not saying not to feed whole milk, because lots of people do that with good results too, but to bash replacer seems a little silly.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Anyone have an ingredient list for milk replacer?


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

This is the first post I saw where someone said they had success with canned milk. I thought someone said the heat killed too much for it to be a good option. 

It just reinforces that you have to do your research, make your best judgement decision and go with what works for you. I use whole milk. We don't have many replacers here and milk is $3.29/gal. which works out cheaper for me (though it's better when my girls are producing, because that only costs the feed LOL)

Yes, I told Dobby she'd have no teeth left. It's so much louder than chewing cud. And, since she could not come close to regulating her temperature, etc, she slept on the couch with me since my heating pad died and I was making sure she stayed warm. Grinding at 2 am sure makes for a restless night. But she made it, is outside full time and doing great. I don't know what is going on this year, but it looks like a bad bottle year


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

MDKatie, what does good growth mean for you. What do your kids weigh at 3 months? What breed? Thanks.

Vets are simply not qualified to give out much nutritional advice unless they have learned it outside their schooling. Their schooling comes from the pharmaceutical industry and includes very minimal nutritional info. They are experts in diseases drugs and surgeries. That's where they know what they are talking about.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Pony said:


> Anyone have an ingredient list for milk replacer?


They're all different, so you'd have to look at each individual replacer. 



southerngurl said:


> MDKatie, what does good growth mean for you. What do your kids weigh at 3 months? What breed? Thanks.
> 
> Vets are simply not qualified to give out much nutritional advice unless they have learned it outside their schooling. Their schooling comes from the pharmaceutical industry and includes very minimal nutritional info. They are experts in diseases drugs and surgeries. That's where they know what they are talking about.


I have Oberhaslis, and don't raise very many. Good growth for me means kids who don't get scoury, thin, get bloaty, maintain a good growth rate, reach proper adult size, have a good haircoat, clear eyes, and happy healthy attitude. I've never had any poor doers on replacer, you know, the kind of kids that are skinny, pot bellied, big headed (because their body hasn't grown well), scoury, depressed attitude, etc. 

I don't weigh at 3 months because I didn't have a good scale before now. Although now my "good scale" is a hanging scale (meant for milk and other things), so hanging a 3 month old kid and having it hold still to get a weight may prove to be a bit challenging. ound:

Oh, and painting all vets with the same brush in regards to animal nutrition is not fair at all. I've got several friends who are vets, and they all had extensive nutrition classes. Perhaps older vets may fit the stereotype of not being very good with nutrition, but even that is a stereotype.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I have never used replacer, I always use whole cow's milk from the grocery store. I have used it for 5 yrs now without issue. Sometimes milk is for sake here for $1.97 a gallon so I buy 4 at a time. 

I dislike replacer for a few reasons, too much fillers and ingredients in it, IMO too much "fake" and not enough quailty. 
A lady I know did use replacer I forget which kind and I told her that is why she was having such scouring problems, eventually one kid died of bloat. While that was probably user error there is little to no guess work about mixing and such when you pour whole milk into a bottle and heat it. It is hard to get that wrong or cause them issues as long as the milk is good and heated well  

I use the regular Gerber baby bottles with the brown nipples, I cut a large X in it and whole milk. If they are fulll size dairy I eventually heat them two bottles since I start them on the baby nipples and they refuse to swtich later. 

Your kids are not ill from whole milk, green muscus has nothing to do with what you are feeding, that is an infection of some sort. 
If you want to add a pinch of baking soda to the milk once a day you can, but do it after it is heated. Too messy if you throw in in first.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

MDKatie said:


> Oh, and painting all vets with the same brush in regards to animal nutrition is not fair at all. I've got several friends who are vets, and they all had extensive nutrition classes. Perhaps older vets may fit the stereotype of not being very good with nutrition, but even that is a stereotype.


I didn't paint them with the same brush. Note what I said starting with "unless".

How many weeks of nutrition do they get vs how many weeks of total schooling?


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

southerngurl said:


> I didn't paint them with the same brush. Note what I said starting with "unless".
> 
> How many weeks of nutrition do they get vs how many weeks of total schooling?


Well since I personally haven't been to vet school, I can't comment specifically on what they learn and what they don't. Let me poll my vet friends and I'll get back with you. But I can probably guess it's more than most of us have had. :whistlin:


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## bknthesdle (Mar 27, 2011)

I live in the middle of nowhere...so getting a gallon of milk cheap to use for bottle kids isn't a possibility.($6.75/gallon I believe) So when I raised my bottle kids, I raised them on _Merrick's Super Lamb Milk Replacer_ as was recommended by the breeder I bought my ND's from. She said in her experince lambs didn't do well or died on other milk replacers, and this was one that she found that lambs did really well on. It was a little spendy...but well worth it.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Text from my vet friend currently in her last year of school: 

"Our teachers are typically specialists in nutrition. We do one semester of just that and then it's always brought up in everything else we do, especially certain med probs."


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

bknthesdle said:


> I live in the middle of nowhere...so getting a gallon of milk cheap to use for bottle kids isn't a possibility.($6.75/gallon I believe) So when I raised my bottle kids, I raised them on _Merrick's Super Lamb Milk Replacer_ as was recommended by the breeder I bought my ND's from. She said in her experince lambs didn't do well or died on other milk replacers, and this was one that she found that lambs did really well on. It was a little spendy...but well worth it.


I looked up some product lists, and Merrick's looked like it was the best. Still, I've become a bit leery of soy in any form, but that's me.

Glad you had such great success. :goodjob:

Our goal here are, as always, to help each other in goats, celebrate successes, console when things go wrong, brainstorm when we get stuck. 

No sense in getting hung up on personal biases. We all just want to raise our goats the best way we can under the individual circumstances we have. :grouphug:


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Pony said:


> I looked up some product lists, and Merrick's looked like it was the best. Still, I've become a bit leery of soy in any form, but that's me.
> 
> Glad you had such great success. :goodjob:
> 
> ...


:goodjob:
Well said!


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

MDKatie said:


> Text from my vet friend currently in her last year of school:
> 
> "Our teachers are typically specialists in nutrition. We do one semester of just that and then it's always brought up in everything else we do, especially certain med probs."


Most schools require 2 semesters of English just to get in. 

I'm not saying they dont know anything, but it's not usually their area of real expertise. 

I've studied nutrition in humans and animals for years (though not as intensively of course) and still don't think I know much. Also, the kind of nutrtion taught in college tends to focus on nutritional deficiency to the point of disease (hence my comment on disease) and ignore mild deficiencies that still leave them open to disease.

My mom is an RN, they got 2 weeks so the vets are at least doing better than that but still not near enough IMO. Otherwise they wouldnt be recommending grain based diets to dogs with inflammatory issues or make suggestions like those in the op. I've seen them be totally oblivious of signs of lower level mineral deficiency, recommend short stressed grass for an IR horse etc. And I'm not saying they are bad because of it- I don't *expect* them to pick up on stuff like that, rather I'm impressed if they do. I've seen them be all over a case of IR in a horse too- but vets are t consistent about stuff like that. So e will, some wont. But they pretty much all know how to suture or what meds they need to use. I use them for other things, stuff they are much better at. If I have a nutrition question, a vet is not who comes to mind to ask. If I have a problem, that's different.


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## Dusky Beauty (Jan 4, 2012)

I was discussing bottle feeding with a goat friend yesterday-- she had trouble with kids getting "bloat" when she fed replacer, and had much better results on whole cows milk when she ran out of her own fresh goat milk. 
I'm currently feeding a bottle kid raw (clean, fit for human consumption) cows milk.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

I was just, very sadly, at my vet for an emergency (not goat related) and somehow, because of this thread, remembered to ask her what they got in vet school on nutrition.

Now, my vet is a GREAT vet. She isn't super on goats, but she really, really tries. I adore my vet.

She told me that vet school covered the bare basics of nutrition in small ruminants. She had to do a lot of outside study on nutrition to actually get GOOD information, and that was even true for dogs and cats. She said that Vet school gave her much more pharmacological and surgical study than it did on nutrition and preventatives.

So, that was from my vet. Your mileage may vary.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

There are so many opinions and teaching out there about nutrition it is mind boggling. Most do the best they can with the info they have IMO  Even here on this forum there are big differences in feeding and nutritional needs. Some vets delve into nutrition and pick what makes sense to them and hang onto that forever. I learn way more here on this forum because we have concerned goat owners asking questions and finding interesting options. Some vets are the same. Some are more into pharmacy....I would hope that most would be somewhere in between.


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