# Honest opinions requested



## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

Did a fence job for a snowbird couple. The job was 1080' of galvanized 5' no-climb fence, steel pipe posts, steel pipe top rail, deaddmen, gates, and a 8" pipe "arch" at the main entry. Enough pipe to warrant a load out of Texas. The supplier also had the del Mar panels and 10 hundred foot rolls of the no climb. So I ordered everything from them. Was short 1 roll of wire so went to the local fencing supply company and was happy to see that they carry the same exact brand of wire...same label and everything. Woo hoo!

Got the job all done..was a pain in the neck. This guy was one of those who has his chin on your shoulder the whole time you're working. He wanted the no-climb hung on the inside of the posts which makes it harder to pull it in the corners..normal for my whole life has been in the outside, but whatever...customers always right. Was tying off the last of the wire and he comes storming over to me absolutely livid because the last roll of wire was a different "color" than all the others. It wasn't shiny and brand new from the factory...it had been setting in the yard at the fence place for a month and had oxydized as galvanized metal does and was kinda dusty and dirty. So I went and got some cleaners and the power washer and cleaned the whole almost 100' of fence. He still want happy so I had to deduct that roll of fence and my labor off his bill or he wasn't going to pay me. I feel like this is a field fence, not a custom wrought iron fancy scroll work thing, just a field fence. In a month or so all the fence is going to oxydize and get dirty and look the same anyways. I feel like this guy is way overreacting. If you were my customer, how would you feel? Here is an up close picture of the seam where the two different "colors" of material were put together. Also





















a pic of the 2 sides in an extended view.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

Just be happy you're not married to him.

Mon


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Well the fence goes on the side where the animals are.
It really ticks me off when customers play the now that the job is done I’m not going to pay you game 
My receipt would be for one less roll of fence than he got after he paid me I would come back and pick up the extra roll of fence. 
you see I don’t play games I give them exactly what they asked for !


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Could you get him to agree that if it all matches in a couple months, that he'd pay for that last roll? Sounds like he was looking for an excuse to pay you less.


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

No


frogmammy said:


> Just be happy you're not married to him.
> 
> Mon





frogmammy said:


> Just be happy you're not married to him.
> 
> Mon


No kidding!!! It's funny you say that...I was thinking the same thing. His wife was very sweet and kept apologizing for him. I wanted to ask her how she does it but I bit my tongue.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

He doesn't seem to care about the rest of his place that much !


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

haypoint said:


> Could you get him to agree that if it all matches in a couple months, that he'd pay for that last roll? Sounds like he was looking for an excuse to pay you less.


I tried to reason with him but he just kept getting more upset. So I took the check he gave me and maybe next year when they come back I will go out and see if he's calmed down. I figured I better get what I can while I can or I may not wind up with anything.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Lol, that was my first thought- "Is that his crap across the way?"


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

TripleD said:


> He doesn't seem to care about the rest of his place that much !


That's his neighbors place...he had plenty to say about them as well.


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

GTX63 said:


> Lol, that was my first thought- "Is that his crap across the way?"


His neighbors place.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I know contractors who are as much a pia as your guy is. I've been known to be one from time to time.
My first thought is that yes, he will pay you, if not now then when the judge orders it.


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

GTX63 said:


> I know contractors who are as much a pia as your guy is. I've been known to be one from time to time.
> My first thought is that yes, he will pay you, if not now then when the judge orders it.


I know what you're saying...and that is an option. But I have to look at the cost and time involved going that route and decide if it's worth it.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

TripleD said:


> He doesn't seem to care about the rest of his place that much !


Why would you say that ?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Thinking about your post reminds me of one of my sisters who has a shop in Tuscon. Some of her best customers are snowbirds who love the locals and the area; some of the worst of her customers are snowbirds who have the entitlement mentality and "you are the natives attitude". One of the reasons she and I both are in business for ourselves because we believe the customer isn't always right.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> I tried to reason with him but he just kept getting more upset. So I took the check he gave me and maybe next year when they come back I will go out and see if he's calmed down. I figured I better get what I can while I can or I may not wind up with anything.


And I would point out to him about a month from now that one of those things that you came back for us to pick up the role of fence he did not pay for


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> I know what you're saying...and that is an option. But I have to look at the cost and time involved going that route and decide if it's worth it.


That falls under the 
Get the check and never again for him


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> I know what you're saying...and that is an option. But I have to look at the cost and time involved going that route and decide if it's worth it.


You are right, 100' of material isn't worth it. I have had customers just like that B&M from start to finish and I couldn't wait to get the check from their hand to my hand into the bank. Some of those same people call back later for more work. Some do it to feed their ego, some because it is how the game is played, some are just morons.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> Why would you say that ?


I thought the pic in the background was his place...


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I am with the Get The Check and walk away crowd.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> I know what you're saying...and that is an option. But I have to look at the cost and time involved going that route and decide if it's worth it.


It’s always worth it. Part of being a good citizen is standing up for right. 
I would add at least my minimum labor charge per hour for every moment taken until I collect my last dime


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

TripleD said:


> I thought the pic in the background was his place...


 I can understand that Confusion but why would you reach the conclusion he doesn’t care about his place?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I am with the Get The Check and walk away crowd.


 I’m with the get the check now and get the rest of it too crowd !


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I knew a guy that had a reputation for arguing over business deals. Trouble is, it worked to his benefit.
I ran an ad looking to but 10 ton of hay. We met, agreed to price and I was to get the hay out of the field, off his wagons. The first bales were 70 pounds each. A few days later, I got more. They were 50 pounds. Ended up the 70 pound bales molded due to being baled wet.
In figuring the total, I counted bales and listed the total 70 pounders and total 50 pounders. He claimed I had all 70 pound bales. I invited him over to the farm. I got out a scale and started throwing bales out of the mow. I figured 8 ton total, he said 10 ton. When the scales showed the bales were 50 or less, he proposed that if I paid him for 9 tons and agreed to buy 2 more ton of hay, he'd call it good. I countered that if he'd take back the moldy wet bales, replace them for free, accept that he had only supplied me 8 ton, then I'd consider buying another 2 ton. He refused to take back the moldy hay, so that was my last dealing with him. But no matter what I'd agreed to, he would have wanted more money.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

AmericanStand said:


> I would add at least my minimum labor charge per hour for every moment taken until I collect my last dime


That is called attorney fees.
First you file the notice of intent. Then file the lien. Then you go to court and get a date to haggle. Then you get your judgement.
Then you either get paid or get a motion to discover assets. 
Meanwhile Mr. Snowbird is getting fed up with the junkyard neighbor and the trashy Arizona contractors and decides to sell. But wait, their is a cloud on the title. Oh yeah, that lein.....

You file liens when you aren't using that job's money to float the next one, or when you really are getting a screw job, or just over principal. It is usually a long term investment so to speak.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Do not deal with this guy any more. 

Life lesson.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Now that you have his check in hand, wait a month or so until the fence turns the same color as the rest and send him a bill.
If he doesn't pay, turn him over to collections and see how he likes that.
Or you can just consider it a lesson learned and move on with life.
Life is too short to waste any of it on jerks.
Personally, I think the fence looks great, and he's not too bright if he thinks all wire is going to look the same.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

haypoint said:


> I knew a guy that had a reputation for arguing over business deals. Trouble is, it worked to his benefit.


I know several like that now on the other side of the deal. They will complain about a minor or insignificant detail to a fault, then after dragging the issue out, offer that I sell them more product at either cost or below. They weren't unhappy at all, some even long term clients, that was just how they felt they wanted to extract what they felt was their idea of a good deal. All they had to do in the beginning was ask but I guess to some being honest seems like a weakness.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

X2 Songbird. Looks very professional. From your post it sounds like this guy isn't familiar with the details of life west of the stoplights.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I worked with a nurse who's husband started a store that sold wheelchairs, crutches and stuff like that, in Sault Ste. Marie, MI. Business was good. So he opened a store in the sister city in Canada. Everyone tried to negotiate a lower price and since the price was set, he refused. Business was awful. So, he raised his prices 20% and haggled down to normal retail.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

GTX63 said:


> That is called attorney fees.
> First you file the notice of intent. Then file the lien. Then you go to court and get a date to haggle. Then you get your judgement.
> Then you either get paid or get a motion to discover assets.
> Meanwhile Mr. Snowbird is getting fed up with the junkyard neighbor and the trashy Arizona contractors and decides to sell. But wait, their is a cloud on the title. Oh yeah, that lein.....
> ...


Yes those attorney fees you pay up front
Maybe you'll get your money
Not until you make a hefty investment
And like the attorney told me
I want my fee up front
A roll of fence isn't worth it


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

In my area you don’t want to list anything as attorney fees unless the client has specifically agreed to that but you can list fees for additional labor and administration to finish the job.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

elevenpoint said:


> Yes those attorney fees you pay up front
> Maybe you'll get your money
> Not until you make a hefty investment
> And like the attorney told me
> ...


 But it really isn’t about a roll of fence is it? It’s about thieves


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> But it really isn’t about a roll of fence is it? It’s about thieves


Live and learn
I know the type
Head over your shoulder watching everything you do
If it wasn't the roll of fence it would have been something else


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

That is a nice fence.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

I'd be inclined to tell him the contract didn't mention perfectly matching colors.


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## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

No need to get an attorney, you can handle this yourself in a small claims action in AZ. The filing fee looks to be under $75 and IIRC you get a court date, go tell your side of the story to the judge, get your $$$, plus you get court cost paid back to you by defendant (deadbeat.) In most states, Small Claims needn't be elegant, just a clear explanation of what happened and what you are wanting. 

Go for it, no sense in getting messed over, IMO.


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## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

Here is some info I found re: small claims actions in AZ.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/arizona-small-claims-court-32073.html


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

And since you will be setting up the court work be sure to set a court date that is an inconvenience for him as possible!
Also place a mechanics lien on the property and refuse to take any steps to remove that unless he pays you Your highest labor rate per hour cash upfront for your time involved in placing in removing the lien 
He won’t bother with removing the lein until the property is for sale at that time drag it out as humanly possible.


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## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> And since you will be setting up the court work be sure to set a court date that is an inconvenience for him as possible



Looks like AZ has the small claims handled by Justices of the Peace, rather than "regular" civil courts, so I think OP will win this fairly easily, JP's tend to be more interested in doling out justice than anything, IME.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You know I wouldn’t be giving you this advice if it Was over a legitimate dispute but since you did everything correctly and it appears to me that you explained the situation to him so he should understand that. There just is no excuse for him to be trying to beat you out of this money except that he likes to beat the working woman out of money. personally I think he should go to jail


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

Sometimes you just have to “fire” your customers. You got your check, next time (if you ever decide to deal with him again), get the money before you do the work. The only other option I see would have been to talk to him once you figured you didn’t have enough of the material to finish and ask if he preferred to wait for the materials to come in OR use the stuff you could buy locally. That would have put the ball in his court. You did a very nice job BTW. Looks great


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

People are easier to reason with if your holding a baseball bat..........or a three foot length of pipe.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

I would just remove the section he did not pay for. "No pay, No fence".


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

elevenpoint said:


> Yes those attorney fees you pay up front
> Maybe you'll get your money
> Not until you make a hefty investment
> And like the attorney told me
> ...


I agree and laws vary from state to state. You can pay a lawyer or if you know your way around, you can do it yourself.
My point is if you can carry the open invoice and this is a hill you won't back down from, here are the basic steps.
I contracted with a plumber once for my rental maint who owned 100+ units of his own. On every single eviction he had, he followed thru on the judgement so it showed up on their records. Most of his tenants were early 20s to mid 30s. He was scoffed at by other landlords who told him he was throwing his money away. Well, as these people found new jobs, new landlords, love, and marriage and then sitting in front of loan officers, they discovered their buying power was hampered by these little clouds on their reports. So he would get a steady trickle of phone calls over the months, sometimes years after his former renters were gone, asking to negotiate repayments. I don't know what the percentage was or the return on his trouble, but that wasn't something he cared about. He did the same thing with deadbeat customers who shorted him on his plumbing work.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Carrying a baseball bat or removing installed material from a job can land you in a jail cell or shot
Sometimes your own time has a higher value
I would send him a bill in a few months after the fence ages and see if he pays
Some want to beat you out of a bit just because it makes them feel good
Others are thankful for a great job and pay you promptly


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

GTX63 said:


> Thinking about your post reminds me of one of my sisters who has a shop in Tuscon. Some of her best customers are snowbirds who love the locals and the area; some of the worst of her customers are snowbirds who have the entitlement mentality and "you are the natives attitude". One of the reasons she and I both are in business for ourselves because we believe the customer isn't always right.


I've found most snowbirds to be nice enough for the most part. I've done quite a bit of work for a bunch of them and there's some personality differences and I think regional thought processes that are certainly different than what I'm used to. Also have the gender gap thing to deal with especially from the older generation sometimes. If they have an issue, they either discount my capability, feel sorry for me that i have to work so hard...a nice young lady like myself shouldn't be out here in the heat doing such physically demanding work, or make inappropriate comments such as...you look awfully warm, feel free to jump in the pool and cool off, its ok if you dont have a swim suit, i wont look (big smile eyebrow wiggle). Whatever...I'm used to it. I get more frustrated having to drive behind a sea of golf carts on public streets!


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

@AZSongBird1973 

Please don't be offended by me asking this, but could you describe the role you played in erecting that fence?


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

All of the suggestions and comments made have been mirrored in my thoughts. From the baseball bat to the litigation process. Is the amount of money I'm out on this deal worth the time I'd be off of other jobs to chase? I don't think so. Is it worth the negative word of mouth that will come of it...there's a pretty close knit bunch of snowbird team ropers that has generated quite a bit of work for me so onice again, nit worth it. Is the principle behind the situation worth it? My dad told me that even if you're in the right, a principle isn't going to fill your belly, keep you warm, or put fuel in your truck. Might make you feel good for a while...strut around like a banny rooster but that's about it. Thanks Dad. I think I will just let karma do its job on this one. Next time he calls, I'm too busy!!


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> All of the suggestions and comments made have been mirrored in my thoughts. From the baseball bat to the litigation process. Is the amount of money I'm out on this deal worth the time I'd be off of other jobs to chase? I don't think so. Is it worth the negative word of mouth that will come of it...there's a pretty close knit bunch of snowbird team ropers that has generated quite a bit of work for me so onice again, nit worth it. Is the principle behind the situation worth it? My dad told me that even if you're in the right, a principle isn't going to fill your belly, keep you warm, or put fuel in your truck. Might make you feel good for a while...strut around like a banny rooster but that's about it. Thanks Dad. I think I will just let karma do its job on this one. Next time he calls, I'm too busy!!


You will respect yourself more, and others will respect you more if you fight for what is right.

Doing fence work like that will keep your belly full. Keep your head high too.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

I've been a thinkin' that I should open up a store and name it "Half off Twice The Price".


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

HDRider said:


> @AZSongBird1973
> 
> Please don't be offended by me asking this, but could you describe the role you played in erecting that fence?


No offense taken. I have 3 employees. Me and one of them worked together to build this fence so I can't really say what I did and he did cuz we did everything together. I'm strong by most female standards but I'm not the hulk and I can't lift those top rail pipes by myself lol! It takes me a lot longer sometimes to do what a lot of big strong guys can do in a shorter time. I have developed a lot of work arounds such as tying the wire on that fence...I don't have hand strength like that so I use a short piece of steel break line to wind it around and a grinder to cut it cuz I can't squeeze a pair of pliers hard enough to cut it through. I have to lug a step stool around with me to weld the top rail up cuz I dont like it when sparks go down my shirt lol. But to answer your question, I played every role in building that fence.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Trade off of time vs. money, as you know. If it a couple hundred dollars, take your lumps. If is over a thousand, I would go with small claims court. If it over that limit, I have had lawyers that would at least write a threat to sue for an investment of $200.00. And if nothing else, you can always take out a contractor's lien on his property and while it may be a few years, any property transfer may well see a check delivered to you for a single trip to the courthouse.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The comment that she will feel better if she fights is, perhaps, not the way she thinks. I like what her dad said, and that she is taking into account the effect on her business if she sues him.


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

HDRider said:


> You will respect yourself more, and others will respect you more if you fight for what is right.
> 
> Doing fence work like that will keep your belly full. Keep your head high too.


There's actually not a whole lot of money in these fences tbh. If it were a more significant amount of money I might feel differently but sometimes you have to pick your battles.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> No offense taken. I have 3 employees. Me and one of them worked together to build this fence so I can't really say what I did and he did cuz we did everything together. I'm strong by most female standards but I'm not the hulk and I can't lift those top rail pipes by myself lol! It takes me a lot longer sometimes to do what a lot of big strong guys can do in a shorter time. I have developed a lot of work arounds such as tying the wire on that fence...I don't have hand strength like that so I use a short piece of steel break line to wind it around and a grinder to cut it cuz I can't squeeze a pair of pliers hard enough to cut it through. I have to lug a step stool around with me to weld the top rail up cuz I dont like it when sparks go down my shirt lol. But to answer your question, I played every role in building that fence.


I know a lot of fence builders, all men. They'd all be proud of that fence. I have built many fences, none that nice. Hats off to you lady. Heck of a good job


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

Songbird, I think that if you give it some thought, it might work out better if you tell the man WHY you don't want to take the (possible) future job, if it should arrise. As long as you are factual, there shouldn't be a problem. You aren't doing this as a hobby, it's a job, for income for you AND your worker, and you took a hit in your bottom line.

Mon


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

My original question was asking if you were my customer how would you feel about the difference in the fence color. I ask this because I feel he is over- reacting but maybe I'm under-reacting too.


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

HDRider said:


> I know a lot of fence builders, all men. They'd all be proud of that fence. I have built many fences, none that nice. Hats off to you lady. Heck of a good job


Aww..thanks! Always nice to get a compliment!!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> My original question was asking if you were my customer how would you feel about the difference in the fence color. I ask this because I feel he is over- reacting but maybe I'm under-reacting too.


He was over reacting. IMO not to be difficult but because he doesn't know any better. I'll bet he feels bad when all of the fence looks the same in a month.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> He was over reacting. IMO not to be difficult but because he doesn't know any better. I'll bet he feels bad when all of the fence looks the same in a month.


No doubt. He might even know it will do that.


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

frogmammy said:


> Songbird, I think that if you give it some thought, it might work out better if you tell the man WHY you don't want to take the (possible) future job, if it should arrise. As long as you are factual, there shouldn't be a problem. You aren't doing this as a hobby, it's a job, for income for you AND your worker, and you took a hit in your bottom line.
> 
> Mon


if he calls me for more work I will be surprised cuz the guy was literally about to stroke out...bulging veins, red face, shaking and spitting as he was screaming at me. Trust me, it pretty much took everything I had to not wad the guy up in a knot but I still have a kiddo at home and going to jail is not a good thing for a mommy to do. If he does call I will try and get what he owes me and if not then I will be able to tell him what I really think of him.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> My original question was asking if you were my customer how would you feel about the difference in the fence color. I ask this because I feel he is over- reacting but maybe I'm under-reacting too.


I used to paint homes a long time ago. I required money upfront for materials and a deposit for the est. work time. This worked for me. 
As the money up front just about cover any unjust demands later when the job was complete.


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

Irish Pixie said:


> He was over reacting. IMO not to be difficult but because he doesn't know any better. I'll bet he feels bad when all of the fence looks the same in a month.


I sure hope he feels terrible! His response to me when I told him that it would look the same in a month was that he is paying for it now, not in a month.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> I sure hope he feels terrible! His response to me when I told him that it would look the same in a month was that he is paying for it now, not in a month.


Good thing you didn't do barb wire
Some rolls differ in tint


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> I sure hope he feels terrible! His response to me when I told him that it would look the same in a month was that he is paying for it now, not in a month.


I didn't realize that, and it would frost my cookies! Maybe he is just a jerk, and I hope he feels terrible.

ETA: Put him on the "jerk" list for the local business owners...


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

gerold said:


> I used to paint homes a long time ago. I required money upfront for materials and a deposit for the est. work time. This worked for me.
> As the money up front just about cover any unjust demands later when the job was complete.


I do that with my big jobs. Looks like I will have to start on the little ones too. Sad really...the days of a handshake meaning something are dwindling fast.


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

elevenpoint said:


> Good thing you didn't do barb wire
> Some rolls differ in tint


Lol, right? I seriously considered painting the wire hot pink...all the same color!


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

I would never hire anyone to do construction of anything if they wanted money up front. If they wanted me to purchase the supplies or part of them up front myself, I would consider it. But, it would be foolhardy to give someone money before they had done anything, imho.


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

Hiro said:


> I would never hire anyone to do construction of anything if they wanted money up front. If they wanted me to purchase the supplies or part of them up front myself, I would consider it. But, it would be foolhardy to give someone money before they had done anything, imho.


It's a fairly common practise these days. As is pre-lein filing etc.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> It's a fairly common practise these days. As is pre-lein filing etc.


It may be common practice. I have had it requested of me. It makes me doubt whether the business is capitalized sufficiently to complete to project. I have also gotten stuck with a subcontractor that didn't pay his bill to his supplier that I ended up having to pay; so, I am a bit more skeptical than many.


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## AZSongBird1973 (Jun 10, 2018)

Hiro said:


> It may be common practice. I have had it requested of me. It makes me doubt whether the business is capitalized sufficiently to complete to project. I have also gotten stuck with a subcontractor that didn't pay his bill to his supplier that I ended up having to pay; so, I am a bit more skeptical than many.


I understand...people get burned on both ends of the spectrum. Makes you feel like you have to be extremely cautious and you can't trust anyone. Very sad


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> I understand...people get burned on both ends of the spectrum. Makes you feel like you have to be extremely cautious and you can't trust anyone. Very sad


I trust lot of people and businesses. The longer you have done 'business', you get more comfortable with the "vibes" you get as the relationship progresses. And, yes, you still get burned from time to time like you may have just experienced. Or, he may have a change of heart in the near future. I hope you get paid in full soon. Having been on both ends of being the contractor and one that hires a contractor, I will say if you have a written estimate or proposal that he accepted and reneged on, you have the best position to force the issue.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

That is why you have contracts....


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nice looking job! 

Picky customer playing games with you and knows he has a lot of leverage. 

Materials paid for upon delivery. In full. This is one way to show in court if ever needed that the materials met the customers specifications, were accepted, thus the payment made. Saves your money if a problem comes up. We do not even unload till the check is collected. Once its unloaded on the customers property who owns and controls the material in your state...........

Same for when the post are in, a bill and payment to establish that the fence is correctly located, etc. 

Contact needs wording that 90 % of final bill or whatever amount you choose is do is due upon billing. Any disputes can involve that final 10%. Keep in mind you have already received several checks so this final amount is likely to be a small amount in perspective. This billing in phases shows the customer you mean business and that you take care of business. Stops some of the games. 

Contracts often have wording in it that any disputes are handled by mediation or whatever you choose. 

Mechanics Lein for the price difference is easy to file. Very likely needs refilled every year or three or whatever your area does. 

Keep a eye on the place,if a for sale sign pops up you then have tremendous leverage if a lien exits. Same for any bills dropped of at the real estate office, mortgage company, tittle office ...........

All of the above are lessons I learned the hard way.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> I tried to reason with him but he just kept getting more upset. So I took the check he gave me and maybe next year when they come back I will go out and see if he's calmed down. I figured I better get what I can while I can or I may not wind up with anything.





elevenpoint said:


> That falls under the
> Get the check and never again for him


I think you did the best you could. Some people appreciate that and some would complain about the carpentry work of Jesus Christ. 
Having dealt with the same stuff before, you bite your tongue, try to always have a satisfied customer and realize that it won't happen 100% of the time.
Cashing the check is better than leaving empty handed. THAT kind of loss is way harder to recoup.
The only advice I can offer is learn how to 'read' people, try and figure out which ones are going to be more trouble than they're worth and cull them from your customer base. Not every fish is going in the cooler.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> if he calls me for more work I will be surprised cuz the guy was literally about to stroke out...bulging veins, red face, shaking and spitting as he was screaming at me. Trust me, it pretty much took everything I had to not wad the guy up in a knot but I still have a kiddo at home and going to jail is not a good thing for a mommy to do. If he does call I will try and get what he owes me and if not then I will be able to tell him what I really think of him.


IF he ever calls again for some work, you'll know what to expect and what to do, like getting everything in writing and signature first.
You should also add what he owes you to the price, and only you need to know why. 
From now on he gets your 'special rate'.



AZSongBird1973 said:


> My original question was asking if you were my customer how would you feel about the difference in the fence color. I ask this because I feel he is over- reacting but maybe I'm under-reacting too.


I overlooked that before.
Would I care?
No. It's a dang fence.
Have I seen that kinda stuff before?
Oh yeah. 
I make sure they get my special rate from now on, too.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Lesson learned. Move on and don't waste any more time and energy on this, life's too short. And no, he is not going to feel bad later after the color settles out, he's just a cheep skate looking for the best deal for himself.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Shine said:


> I've been a thinkin' that I should open up a store and name it "Half off Twice The Price".


Welcome to crazy Larry’s where we rip off the other guy and pass the savings onto you!


Too late on that half off twice the price idea it’s called Harbor freight


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> Lol, right? I seriously considered painting the wire hot pink...all the same color!


Lol I’d love my fence painted hot pink for free!
Did your original deal specify a color? If it didn’t specify color it really has no complaints that the colors do not match at this particular moment. 
By the way if he is part of a big circle of friends that you get a lot of business from you need to get every penny from him because what he’s going to do is complain about the shotty quality of your work start with and brag about how he ripped you off and how everyone should. 
Everyone in that circle that has paid or is forced to pay full price will feel like they got ripped off and will do their best to beat you down


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

farmrbrown said:


> IF he ever calls again for some work, you'll know what to expect and what to do, like getting everything in writing and signature first.
> You should also add what he owes you to the price, and only you need to know why.
> From now on he gets your 'special rate'.
> 
> ...


Next time/if he calls
Hit the end button
First time shame on him
Second time shame on you


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Would you accept it if this man came in your house and took $125 out of your safe ? Would you call the cops or just say oh it’s not worth the trouble if he got in your truck and took $125 out of your purse? This guy is a thief it’s that clear he is. Deal with him as you would any other thief do not feel bad for him do not worry that you will have a reputation for not putting up with thieves it’s not a bad thing


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Offer to buy him a gallon of paint and and a teeny, tiny roller if he wants matching fence wire.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Years ago I was working for a guy by the hour building a redwood deck. They owner was bragging about stiffing the last contractor and guess what? My boss got stiffed too. Fast forward twenty years later and a friend asked me to roof this house. 

You guessed it, was the same guy and the same house. I told my friend not to do the job and why. He says "no he won't do that to me because my daughter and his son are married." I did the job and he paid me but never got all his money out of him. 

Some people are just wired that way.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Your first clue was when he was standing looking over your shoulder all the time. Been there got the t-shirt.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Allen W said:


> Your first clue was when he was standing looking over your shoulder all the time. Been there got the t-shirt.


Yeah the poster about charging more if you watch is not entirely a joke


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Sorry to hear about your trouble. When I deliver a shipping container I have the customer inspect it before I unload it from the trailer. Then I collect the money, cash only. Then I unload the container. I used to trust people, until I started my own business. Now it's cash only no checks.


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> I know what you're saying...and that is an option. But I have to look at the cost and time involved going that route and decide if it's worth it.


Do they have "mechanical liens" in AZ? <evil grin>


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## FreeRange (Oct 9, 2005)

AZSongBird1973 said:


> It's a fairly common practise these days. As is pre-lein filing etc.


When we built our barndo last year, we paid for materials WHEN they arrived on our property. Too many companies take the money and run these days. Turns out we got a good company but you never know when starting out.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

FreeRange said:


> When we built our barndo last year, we paid for materials WHEN they arrived on our property. Too many companies take the money and run these days. Turns out we got a good company but you never know when starting out.


Yes and it cuts both ways. That's where we all get into trouble. If I have a client I don't know it get a bad vibe I will ask for a percentage when the materials arrive. No money and the truck goes back to the lot. 

Otoh, it burns me up for a contractor to ask for a payment way before the material is even ordered. If they don't have enough credit to get them beforehand they probably don't need to be in business.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Fer that last 100', that would have costed extra for the "Seasoned" fencing..


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