# "Serious" riders?



## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

So ... someone said to me that "serious" riders are those that are into jumping, dressage, etc, not "just" trail riding. IOW, people who have a horse or horses for trail riding are not "serious riders."

What say you all?


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## DQ (Aug 4, 2006)

I would define the difference as between those that enjoy riding for the simple pleasure rather than accomplishment of trying to achieve some standard. 

as in, a serious rider "trains" a non serious rider simply goes from point A to point B and enjoys the experience even if they have no particular desire to acquire skills that are beyond the extent necessary to get from A to B in a particular environment (get over/through/around obstacles they encounter safely and comfortably)

there are certainly both serious and non serious trail riders. 

It isn't an insult to be considered a non serious rider. It is a perfectly acceptable way to enjoy horses. (although I know that most pleasure riders are insulted at the implication)

It is like the difference between a scholar, who gets enjoyment from perusing lectures and papers and textbooks and someone who prefers to read novels. I think each attracts a different type of folk, some more "serious" than others. 

Both require a basic skill in reading but one finds pleasure in the aquisition of and building of knowledge and one is looking for pleasure in a good story. 

I used to be a "serious" rider. Lessons, teaching, showing, clinics, expensive horses and high standards; hours spent fine tuning skills. I have also enjoyed on occasion just loading up the trailer, driving to a place with beautiful and challenging trails and simply enjoyed the ride; a significantly less "serious" experience.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Ugh, I will take my laid back Sunday driver rides anytime. When training becomes a chore, the fun is gone for me. I have nothing but respect for "serious" riders, but couldn't do it myself.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

I would agree with DQ. I consider a serious rider as a person who invests themself into their chosen area of riding.

I know serious Trail Riders who spend numerous hours weekly, in getting horses out and covering ground. They enjoy the "going and doing", covering ground distances, keeping themselves and horses fit for this kind of riding. They spend money on pricy pads and equipment, because they think equines are more comfortable wearing those items doing their long mileages. They enjoy the big outdoors, want to be as good a rider as possible, enjoy their chosen equine so everyone is having a good time on the trails.

The difference as DQ said, is the intensity with which those"serious" riders pursue their chosen activity. Their desire to be BETTER riders, better at aiding the equine do his job. They put in extra time to learn MORE from various sources, compare the information to choose improvements to try in their chosen discipline. They have set their personal standards very high, to suit their own desires. Many of these folks NEVER enter a competition, just want to feel they have given riding their "best" effort, to keep themselves learning and improving. Self-satisfaction is their goal.

If a person doesn't wish to work that hard, take lessons, learn new techniques, that is fine. They can still enjoy their riding discipline as an entirely different part of their life, no goals to meet, outside on a good horse, a short time away from daily life at home.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I'm not serious anything...sounds frowny. Welllll, I guess I'm serious about health and care though...But I ride to enjoy along with my horse


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

I tend to agree with what some of the others have posted. While people *can* be serious trail riders, most people who call themselves trail riders are not serious (and most horses advertised as trail horses are barely broke, but that is another matter...). As a riding instructor at a University that provides free riding lessons to any university student who wants them I have come across my share of people who think they can ride because they have trail ridden, but often don't know how to saddle a horse. I've also encountered a lot of trail riders who think a horse is a good horse because it isn't barn sour, herd bound, or a bucker but absolutely knows nothing besides forward, left, right, and stop. In fact, one of these people was bragging on a particular horse that I had broke, but I considered too green to put an inexperienced rider on... They had adopted the horse from my neighbors, and apparently this horse was better behaved than most of the other horses they had "rescued." 

If you aren't riding with a goal, please at least be knowledgeable about horse care and training.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

To me it just sounds like a term used to make one type of rider to feel better than another. Heck, maybe a serious rider is one who does not smile. Personally, I enjoy a good laugh.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

What say I?
who cares. Let each person ride the way they enjoy. I showed this summer. Does that make me serious? Course it was just a local show. Had I showed at the state level when I was asked at the end of the show season..would that make me a serious rider?
I rode this weekend on some hills that many arena riders would have refused or would have lead their horses. Does that make me a "serious" rider?
horse riding should be enjoyable. Each person finds their enjoyment as they choose. I am a serious horse lover. That's enough for me


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Very well put DQ. And Saanengirl, I can completely understand and completely agree.

95% of the trail riders around here are weekend warriors at best. Some are lucky if they get on their horses 2-3 times a year. Some barely know which way the saddle goes and only have a rudimentary knowledge of horses in general. In the past I've ridden with trail riders, one of whom actually had his horse's bit upside down in his mare's mouth! Their knowledge of riding usually equates to: Kick=go, pull=stop, and neck rein to turn -- and absolutely nothing more!

I take lessons every 2-3 weeks throughout the entire year, I school my horses at home as much as I can (usually 3 times a week or more for each horse), I compete several times a year, I read books and watch videos to learn and improve my own riding. I am immersed in the horse world every day of the year both because of my job, and because I choose to be.

It is perfectly fine for someone to enjoy their horse by being "just" a trail rider. I don't expect every horse owner to be as competitive or as driven as some of us, but I do expect horse owners to be knowledgeable about the animal they have chosen to care for and to have basic riding skills, if only for the horses' benefit.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I grew up on a working cattle ranch in MT and rode from the time I was 4 or 5 and could get a job done horseback from the time I was 10 or 12.

By the time I was in my late 20s I KNEW I could ride well. I went to Spain, was intrigued by the Andalusian horses and found an instructor to take dressage lessons from. He was obviously aware of things I was not and about the third ride, he put me on a school horse, English saddle in a big round corral. The horse was voice trained so he took my stirrups away, made me cross my arms behind my back to keep my shoulders back and proceeded to correct my seat and legs. Once we were cantering, I felt I was sitting down well in the saddle and going with the horse when he called a command, the horse did a fast, smooth half-pirouette to the left, changing leads and cantered in the opposite direction ... with me wrapped around his neck.

From that point on, I was much more humble and decided that I still had a lot of things left to learn that riding western working ranch horses for 20 years had not taught me.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

I consider this a bunch of BS! Whatever your passion for the equine, it's YOUR thing!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Don't feed the troll... :thumb:


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## Kazahleenah (Nov 3, 2004)

SFM in KY said:


> I grew up on a working cattle ranch in MT and rode from the time I was 4 or 5 and could get a job done horseback from the time I was 10 or 12.
> 
> By the time I was in my late 20s I KNEW I could ride well. I went to Spain, was intrigued by the Andalusian horses and found an instructor to take dressage lessons from. He was obviously aware of things I was not and about the third ride, he put me on a school horse, English saddle in a big round corral. The horse was voice trained so he took my stirrups away, made me cross my arms behind my back to keep my shoulders back and proceeded to correct my seat and legs. Once we were cantering, I felt I was sitting down well in the saddle and going with the horse when he called a command, the horse did a fast, smooth half-pirouette to the left, changing leads and cantered in the opposite direction ... with me wrapped around his neck.
> 
> From that point on, I was much more humble and decided that I still had a lot of things left to learn that riding western working ranch horses for 20 years had not taught me.


Where's the "Like" button????? :rock:


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I trained a considerable number of working ranch horses in my teens and 20s. They were good, honest horses that did their job. Nothing wrong with them.

When I returned from Spain with four years of dressage experience, both in riding and training dressage, the first horse I owned and trained after that, using the things I'd learned, produced the best trained horse I'd ever owned. He not only did every job a working ranch horse needed to do, he was my daughter's 4H show horse and took her to state competition two years of the three years she showed him. I showed him western and sidesaddle a few times, just for fun when we took the Quarter Horses we were breeding to shows. He was the school horse for a friend's daughter for her final year in college, showing locally at the college shows in western, hunters, dressage and driving. He was also the horse we put the non-riding city cousins on when they came to visit as he would amble around the field with no real guidance at all.

I've never shown a dressage horse in a show, I've never ridden a dressage horse to show someone what I could do or the horse could do. The dressage riding and training I've done has been to produce a better trained, more responsive horse regardless of his job in life.

You may have met dressage exhibitors that do ride and show simply to look good and be noticed by the spectators at the competition. I've met a number of Quarter Horse people that show in all the fancy silver equipment for the same reason and I'm sure any number of other disciplines have competitors that show simply to be admired.

However, that is not a valid reason to dismiss the disciplines and effort that goes into producing a good dressage horse and rider by saying the only reason anyone would ride/train/show in the discipline is to show off and be admired.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Thanks, wr. I was thinking about that post while I was working on fences this afternoon and just came in the house for some water and to send you a PM but I see it has been taken care of already.


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

it sounds so judgemental eh? 

a serious rider must be a better rider than a pleasure rider? I wish it was thus (only because then I wouldn't have seen some of the lousy riding I've seen)

I take my pleasures seriously - I want to be the best horseperson I can be - no matter if I'm riding 20 times a week and showing and teaching or if I'm trail riding every 15 years ...


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

If I could I would take my riding much more serious. I have had horses for 30 some odd years and never had a lesson. I have either not had the time or not had the money. If I had a do over I would have started as a kid, rode in 4-h, taken tons of lessons, rode in far away counires withthe best trainers worldwide and been a much better and competant rider then I am. I would love to do dressage. Would love to do reining, team penning, would love to do trails in far off places. Trail obstacles..oh yeah!
As it is still raising kids and still tight on money,,I grab what I can.
I read books, watch videos, and still wish for lessons from a good trainer. I do do the best I know how. And do wish to know so much more then what I can teach myself.
I one time WAS that trail rider with the bit upside down. I was on a arab mare bareback. Perhaps it was me you saw?
I have done the best I can by my horses.I make an honest attempt using what is available to me to be a true horse woman. I imagine there are many trail riders who aspire to learn more and do more,,but just aren't in a life spot to do so.
Maybe this makes me less serious..or maybe just less lucky. 
Again...it sounds like dissing "Just" trail riders makes others feel more important. I enjoy my horses..and hope everyone in any discipline does too. It really is a life long of learning that will never be done


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

but you are a serious rider to me ... you take your horses welfare and health seriously and try to do what is right by them 

even just understanding that it's life long learning makes you a serious rider in my book


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Folks are taking offense when none is being offered. If you feel "dissed" than you have made it so yourself.

My post was to point out the difference between a rider who works at self-improvement, so they are more "serious" and perhaps "studious?" than other riders doing the same activities. I think the "serious" part is named because the person is not usually goofing around while trying to improve their skills and knowledge. Nothing to do with "frowny faces". This is a self-inflicted learning attitude, probably because they are a type A, can't just "settle" in anything they do!

Everyone may have a part of their life that they work to be good at, harder than other folks doing the same activity. You make those choices, take time from other stuff in your life to improve your skills, knowledge, in this area. Could be sewing or makeup, baseball, putting good meals on the table, your job or riding. I can cook, do a fair job at it, but have never applied myself to cooking like I worked on my riding skills!

And to me, being a serious rider in your chosen discipline, means improving your base of horse knowledge. You can learn things from all the disciplines, cowboys and riding instructors. That gives you a bigger base of skills and information to draw from when you have an issue going on with a horse. Dressage originally meant "training". So SFM went and learned "training" from a Spanish instructor in the old, Classic style of the Europeans. Sounds like she learned a lot, was able to use that "training" on her Western bred horse to make it a much more skilled athlete than she could have had before her lessons. I would imagine she learned a lot more than just sitting on the horse while she was there. The Europeans are BIG on doing ALL the steps, from cleaning stalls to grooming, tack care and FINALLY riding. SFM paid her dues over time, to learn more. Gave up OTHER things to get those lessons. Everyone makes life choices. Horses are not at the top of everyone's list, so you live with those choices later on. 

Trail riding is a way to enjoy a horse. Folks who don't wish to improve seem to be those who label themselves as "just a trail rider". They put themselves down, no one else is doing it. I know a lot of folks who ride trails, WISH I was as skilled as they are, had the knowledge they have. I wouldn't dare label anyone as "just a trail rider"!! Statements like that would make me look foolish as they gave me that patient smile which says "You have still got a LOT to learn dear".


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

goodhors said:


> Folks are taking offense when none is being offered. If you feel "dissed" than you have made it so yourself.
> 
> My post was to point out the difference between a rider who works at self-improvement, so they are more "serious" and perhaps "studious?" than other riders doing the same activities. I think the "serious" part is named because the person is not usually goofing around while trying to improve their skills and knowledge. Nothing to do with "frowny faces". This is a self-inflicted learning attitude, probably because they are a type A, can't just "settle" in anything they do!
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone took offense to your post. Maybe you missed the post by DeepWoods that has since been deleted?


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

I ride to work cows most of the time. I've been riding for about 35 years. I've started a colt or three over the years...



However, I've never considered myself particularly "serious" :shrug:
For that matter, my husband puts "cowboy" in the occupation box on his 1040, but he would never call himself a "serious" rider either.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

Brody still wish you were a mid tennessean, You;d have an instructor job for a bunch of middle aged and older husseys


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

In a couple months Brody may wish she were a mid Tennessean


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

goodhors said:


> Folks are taking offense when none is being offered. If you feel "dissed" than you have made it so yourself.
> 
> My post was to point out the difference between a rider who works at self-improvement, so they are more "serious" and perhaps "studious?" than other riders doing the same activities.


I was definitely responding to the post by DeepWoods (now deleted). I had no problem at all with your post and I don't think anyone else did either. I did take offense to the statement DW made which implied that the only reason anyone rode/trained for dressage was to show off.

I have absolutely no problem with people who enjoy horses at a much more relaxed level than I do. I have a friend who re-schooled former race horses years ago, much lower levels of involvement and hasn't ridden for years. She enjoys watching dressage ... and enjoys rodeo ... but puts her fingers in her ears every time I start talking about equine color genetics.

Not everyone approaches things with the same levels of intensity and as long as people and horses are both happy, I'm fine with whatever level that is.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

lamoncha lover said:


> Brody still wish you were a mid tennessean, You;d have an instructor job for a bunch of middle aged and older husseys


Well LL, if you're ever up this way to visit Lake Superior or something, swing by my place and I'll let you take my Dressage/Event gelding for a spin. I could probably even hook you up with one of my clients to give you a lesson on him. I'm serious - and not in the frowney way.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

cool malinda
I would be afraid to ride something well trained..afraid i would ruin it. I had someone offer me a very well trained horse for free..I declined as it was much more highly trained then I am. 
lake superior, duluth , wrenshall, grand marais, superior and solon springs, wisconsin, are my old stomping grounds. who knows./.may get up that way to visit hubbys family someday.maybe by then I will be willing to give it a whirl. My goal is to STOP smoking and take that money for lessons. GOOD motivation for me to stop a 40 yr habit


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

The older I get the more I dislike labels. 
Have gotten to the point, someone says anything like that.. I either grunt and walk away or roll my eyes and walk away. LOL 

Like SFM, been there, done that, bought the tshirt and the farm...
I train my horse's the way I like them, have nothing to prove to anyone. 
This stage of my life, I just enjoy my wee horses. ;O)


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

Goodness! I didn't mean to start a war! :shocked: But I guess the question hit a nerve somewhere. I did feel that that person who originally made the statement to me was "dissing" people who trail ride as something "less", because trail riding appears on the surface as something that takes less knowledge. But I don't see how you can know or judge what someone knows or is learning (or isn't) solely by what "discipline" they take part in. I just wondered if I was maybe taking the statement the wrong way, but judging by the various responses, I guess I wasn't!


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

lamoncha lover said:


> cool malinda
> I would be afraid to ride something well trained..afraid i would ruin it. I had someone offer me a very well trained horse for free..I declined as it was much more highly trained then I am.
> lake superior, duluth , wrenshall, grand marais, superior and solon springs, wisconsin, are my old stomping grounds. who knows./.may get up that way to visit hubbys family someday.maybe by then I will be willing to give it a whirl. My goal is to STOP smoking and take that money for lessons. GOOD motivation for me to stop a 40 yr habit


You won't ruin a horse's training by taking a lesson on him. The instructor is there to help you, just do what he/she says. I can't tell you how much it helps to improve your own riding to be able to ride a horse more schooled than you at least once in a while.

I've never smoked, but I imagine it's not cheap. I'm willing to spend money on furthering my knowledge - i.e. lessons, clinics, etc. They can be pricey, but I don't feel like it is ever wasted money.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

lamoncha lover said:


> cool malinda
> I would be afraid to ride something well trained..afraid i would ruin it. I had someone offer me a very well trained horse for free..I declined as it was much more highly trained then I am.
> lake superior, duluth , wrenshall, grand marais, superior and solon springs, wisconsin, are my old stomping grounds. who knows./.may get up that way to visit hubbys family someday.maybe by then I will be willing to give it a whirl. My goal is to STOP smoking and take that money for lessons. GOOD motivation for me to stop a 40 yr habit


The best way to advance your skill is to ride a school master with a good instructor, lamoncha lover. I quit smoking after nearly 40 years last December- if I can do it you can too. :grin: Good luck on both your goals.

ETA: My 78 year old Aunt just recently quit smoking after over 60 years and she's doing great!


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

lamoncha lover said:


> I would be afraid to ride something well trained..afraid i would ruin it. I had someone offer me a very well trained horse for free..I declined as it was much more highly trained then I am.


I very well trained horse can teach you a great deal. Weltstern was trained and was shown at 4th level and Prix St Georges (for the first time, when he was 14) and I could probably have ridden at 2nd level, at best, in competition.

However, he did teach me some things, simply by virtue of the fact that he was trained to that level and if I could get all the signals correct for the higher level work, he would oblige and do it.

I never did show him myself but did ride him occasionally and actually found it amusing to tell people that I found it interesting to own and ride a horse that was better educated than I was.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== I've never smoked, but I imagine it's not cheap. ===


Very little cost if you make your own, which I've done for years.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

I have never made my own so it has been costly. I would prefer to quit while I can still breathe. I just can't see strapping an oxygen tank to one of my horses.here's hoping


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

lamoncha lover said:


> I have never made my own so it has been costly. I would prefer to quit while I can still breathe. I just can't see strapping an oxygen tank to one of my horses.here's hoping


It can be done. I did it and used self-hypnosis tapes I made myself to help. This was years before any of the nicotine patches, etc. ... back in 1976 ... and while I did have to pay attention and change some of my 'habits', I've never smoked since.

One of the biggest things for me was to stay away from situations where I was used to smoking.


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## Wild Blue (Oct 10, 2011)

I have been a show person and a trail person and I am SERIOUSLY in love with any time spent with my horse. 

I don't think there are clear definitions of what makes a rider a "serious" one. It is also obvious that people have different images of what a "serious" rider is. Whatever floats your boat, but I think what is more important is how RESPONSIBLE we are as horsemen/women. No matter how many hours we have in the saddle or how much training we do or don't do.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

well said wild blue


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Having watched some (note-some) dressage or eventing people trying a semi-difficult trail ride or trail trial on their horses, it is hard to remain serious. It's not my fault. It's was funny- right after it stopped being scary. 
Yes- trail riding can be more challanging than anything I've every done. A bear met on a two foot wide shale trail with a thousand foot drop on one side and a cliff on the other definitely shows how much your training has been effective. And not having success means something more final than not getting a ribbon.


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## Wild Blue (Oct 10, 2011)

where I want to said:


> Having watched some (note-some) dressage or eventing people trying a semi-difficult trail ride or trail trial on their horses, it is hard to remain serious. It's not my fault. It's was funny- right after it stopped being scary.
> Yes- trail riding can be more challanging than anything I've every done. A bear met on a two foot wide shale trail with a thousand foot drop on one side and a cliff on the other definitely shows how much your training has been effective. And not having success means something more final than not getting a ribbon.


I showed dressage and show jumping/eventing. Trail riding my horse/s was the absolute best therapy for a bored show horse! Plus, all the uphill riding was great exercise for my discipline. If the "serious" trail riders were laughing at me it was only because I was the only fool out there in an english saddle or bareback!


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Icelandic horse riders, do everything from trail rides and even have some Long riders in our ranks, and they ride in English saddles. Nothing wrong with that. ;O)

I am now, "just" a trail rider but where I ride, would scare the pants off anyone not used to riding the hills.

I have ridden and trained everything from Dressage and trail horses, western horses and have ridden High School Horses. 
To have to have a good safe trail horse, you spend years training them, its not always easy and you don't have the safety net of an arena. And you have to content with Wildlife and some times unsafe terrain.
For Dressage horse's it takes years to get them to certain levels... And High School horses even more training.

To me, anyone that feels the need to put labels on, or talk down to people in different disciplines, have the need to feel Superior because they really have no or little idea how to ride and how much work it takes to get a good safe horse, be it on the trail or in Dressage/ Cross County... etc..


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## Deep Woods (Jun 12, 2011)

I never took "offense"...just stated my opinion. Seems that the "clique" can have their opinion but no one else can have theirs if it differs..???...LOL... Flame on!!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nope, everybody is entitled to an opinion but they are expected to deliver it in a civil sorta way. It's worked for HT for a long time and as far as I know, the site owner has no plans to change that anytime soon.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

Speaking from the riding perspective only (never owned a horse) it was absolutely discouraging to me to be told, in no uncertain way when starting to consider buying a horse for dressage and jumping, that I just didnt have the $ to become a serious rider. Kinda broke my heart. 

I ended up taking my horse money and applying it towards buying a house instead. My husband and kids followed shortly and I've never regretted the decision - worked out perfectly! But the question of who is a serious rider is still a touchy thing for me.

yet another perspective to add to the others.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Wild Blue said:


> I showed dressage and show jumping/eventing. Trail riding my horse/s was the absolute best therapy for a bored show horse! Plus, all the uphill riding was great exercise for my discipline. If the "serious" trail riders were laughing at me it was only because I was the only fool out there in an english saddle or bareback!


I agree that "trail riding" is a great help to a horse's mental health. I used to do that too.
But the recreational ride of that nature is a far different thing than the 8 hour, 2000 foot climb and drop in a wilderness that I came to consider a real good trail ride. In rides like that, a horse needs a level of physical and mental ability that are as special in its way as a dressage or open jumper. 
I have a mare that uses her head to walk through a slash field without hesitation, cross rivers and steep downhills safely and use good judgement in scary situations. She has the endurance to go all day, day after day. Safely and comfortably for me too.
My moment of most pride with her was when she was gaiting pretty fast down a meadow path towards home when a bear dropped like a cannon ball out of a tree about 20 feet away. I saw her eye roll over to keep track of what the bear did but she never changed her gait or even lifted her head. If the bear came at us, she would act but she would wait to see first. 
That deserves respect as much as a Grand Prix horse. 

BTW I always ride english and always have.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

cathleenc said:


> Speaking from the riding perspective only (never owned a horse) it was absolutely discouraging to me to be told, in no uncertain way when starting to consider buying a horse for dressage and jumping, that I just didnt have the $ to become a serious rider. Kinda broke my heart.


I know that is the attitude of some of the upper level people and it is, to some extent true for riders who have the ambition, time and $$ to really work at getting to the upper levels in jumping, eventing or dressage. However, for the average rider this is absolutely not true as you can certainly be a serious rider with goals to be competitive locally at lower levels. I would venture to say that most individual dressage riders will compete at no higher than 3rd level.

I started out breeding warmbloods in MT where there really wasn't a lot of high dollar warmbloods available and most of the would-be dressage/jumping and event riders were ranch wives whose husbands wouldn't have allowed big $$ for a warmblood anyway.

Most of the people I knew were riding TBs, TB-type AQHA and APHA horses, a few appaloosas and one of the top dressage horses at the lower levels when my Connemara was competing was a girl riding a mustang. I bought several TB mares for broodmares that would have made very good jumpers or event horses and low to mid-level dressage horses for $600 to $1200 all during the 1990s.

I've heard this same litany from other breeders/trainers/instructors and truly have no respect for these people. They are, in their way, as 'elete-ist' as the working ranch cowboys that used to laugh at my Arab horse and English saddle!


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## Deep Woods (Jun 12, 2011)

wr said:


> Nope, everybody is entitled to an opinion but they are expected to deliver it in a civil sorta way. It's worked for HT for a long time and as far as I know, the site owner has no plans to change that anytime soon.


I did not use foul/vulgar language or whatever and only stated my opinion..but because I am not as "refined" as some, my post is "uncivil"...that seems to be the consensus in the "refined group" all the way around. It's okay for them to look down their noses on others, but......Ahh forget it!!.. :bdh:


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Ummm, Deep Woods, many of us got censored for getting a bit hot under the collar, you aren't alone, trust me!


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

I think the most serious riders by FAR are those foxhunting club members. How they keep a straight face is beyond me!


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

I believe trail riding can be just as serious. I ride my appy, who is very spirited and well schooled for jumping, on rugged trails. We dont just plug along, we run for miles, jumping logs up hills, winding down steep embankments only to jump a creek at the bottom, then a few more logs. Dodging tree's and paying attention to every step along the way. 

I think it takes a lot of skill for us to do this. She is extremely sure footed, very collected (she wont win any races..lol) and all muscle. We work a little in the arena to stay balanced, and responsive but for the most part she carries her collective maneuvers into the woods. I think together we are extremely serious. We may leave for a week or 4 day weekend. You know a good saddle when you ride like that. Leather A**'s...lol 

I watch people every year, go tumbling down the hills because they would take the hill down side ways with their horse, instead of head on. Or just other crazy moves. 

I did the competition thing, arena's can get boring.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Nothing wrong with trail riding.

I had serious horses with serious training and I'd be out 3-4 hours every day on the trails. 

My horses were sure footed, very fit, unflappable, and learned they could trust me. No matter how scary it might appear, if I told them they could do it, they would do it. They were also fresh minded and enjoyed their work and there was no problem with burn-out in their arena work.

10 miles up and down hills has got to be more interesting to a horse than another hour on the hot walker.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

Personally I don't see the sense in using the term "serious rider" because it can give off the air of one group looking down upon another even when this is not the intention. Our Joshua, for example, came from a show family. The family breeds rather pricy horses but our boy was purchased from out of state as a show horse fo their adolescent daughter. When she decided that boys were more important than horses they sold him. He came to us with six months of training but had no idea what to do outside an arena. He was absolutely clueless. Our trainer very quickly taught him how to behave outside the ring. He's now six years old and has a great head on his shoulders. He's come into his own. He's no longer stabled so he's developed that beautiful big Paint butt. His previous owners consider themselves as very serious horsemen. I have an English-ridingg friend who shows regularly. She jumps and is very serious about her riding. She's scared to death of trail riding her beloved boy. She just moved him to her new and arena less farm so she'll have to get used to that type of riding. It's just all in the eye of the beholder.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Hmmm... I took my Dressage/Event gelding to two Competitive Trail Rides last month - and he WON both of them! A few weeks ago we competed in a 25 mile endurance ride.

In August I was at an endurance ride and a bunch of ladies/girls from a Hunter barn showed up (they were friends with the ride manager). They had never competed in a competitive trail ride and their horses are *usually* only ridden in an arena. The six ladies took the top seven placings in the novice division! 

I think it depends on the trainers/barns in your area. Here, almost everyone's show horses are trail ridden to some extent. I have heard of people who do not ride outside of an arena, but they are few and far between.


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

The key to whether or not someone is serious is not the discipline, rather the amount of time one is willing to spend on horseback schooling and improving one's own riding ability and the training of the horse. There is nothing wrong with being a casual rider that rides only occasionally, and being a casual rider does not mean you are not a good rider. What is important whether you are a serious rider or a casual rider is that you are knowledgeable about horses, know how to properly care for your horse, have properly fitting tack that is put on correctly, and have a happy horse.


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## RideBarefoot (Jun 29, 2008)

Been on both sides of the coin here- grew up showing stock horses, then saddleseat and park horses, then the dressage and driving... 7 of my kids came out with roses at nationals, so I guess that counts as serious!

Moved to Virginia to take a job riding endurance horses, and fell in love with the sport. Bringing a horse 50 or 100 miles in a day teaches you a LOT more- tack fit, balanced riding, and listening to your horse are crucial elements to finishing a ride with a happy, healthy horse. And trail training is the best for fixing a lot of the "stupid moments"

My crew gets a mix of everything- some days are ground work, some are arena days for working on holes in training, some are lesson days.

A national endurance title and USDF medals are on my bucket list, but my favorite time is just hitting the trail with a good pony under me. Pure heaven!


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

I think anyone who spends the time to understand and know their horse, know and provide for it's needs and sees to it that the horse is doing well, is a serious horseperson. Now serious rider? I don't know. I reckon if you only plunk around once a year, as long as the tack fits, the horse is sound and in good health, I figure you are as serious as you want to be.

When I think of "serious" rider, I generally think of those that take lessons, ride daily and work to improve their riding and often show. Some don't show, but are still serious and so work hard to improve. They focus on one or two disciplines (say dressage and maybe x-c or hunter over fences and hunseat) or on the western side of things "western pleasure and horsemanship" or barrels and poles, etc.) but in any event they measure their successes and work to continuously improve their riding. They do NOT by any means, change horses just to win..they work on being a better rider on the horse that they have until that horse cannot take them further, then they may upgrade.

It's all good as long as the horse is well, taken care of and the rider works to improve themselves. i.e. understands hauling on the mouth is a no no, ill fitting tack doesn't work, keeping hooves trimmed is part of maintenance, etc.

I used to be a "serious" rider..I took lessons, showed, my whole life revolved around my horse and her needs. I did that for years. Now I am a casual rider but still serious about things..when my mare comes up to Huntsville, she will be in a show barn and I will take lessons and work to improve whether or not I show her. I like to improve both of us. BTW - she is a TWH and I take dressage lessons on her..she has been in pro dressage training for three years..lol..so yes, we are serious but understand that there is only so much that Tyr will be able to do as she is a TWH and not a "trotter".


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

In my area, there are people who have ridden "their whole life" and dont know their leads. 

IMO, one can be a rider who strives for knowledge and for making their horse the best they can be..and not look to compete or even compete outside of local shows. 

I did alot of clinics the last few years, geared for more of the weekend warrior sect of my community. Many did not come, citing they "knew how to ride"..afew did attend, and were amazed at the difference in their horses once they RODE them differently. They could ENJOY the trails instead of fighting with the horse the whole time. 

Bottomline, one doesnt have to be a "serious" rider to be a "good" rider..and being a weekend trail rider is, IMO, no excuse for poor riding skills.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

lamoncha lover said:


> cool malinda
> I would be afraid to ride something well trained..afraid i would ruin it. I had someone offer me a very well trained horse for free..I declined as it was much more highly trained then I am.
> lake superior, duluth , wrenshall, grand marais, superior and solon springs, wisconsin, are my old stomping grounds. who knows./.may get up that way to visit hubbys family someday.maybe by then I will be willing to give it a whirl. My goal is to STOP smoking and take that money for lessons. GOOD motivation for me to stop a 40 yr habit


This is a problem I have..if in fact the horse IS well trained, you'd have to do ALOT to ruin the horse..and the mindset of "Im going to ruin the horse" when people GET a nice horse causes a slew of issues..as some people are afraid to actually RIDE the horse.

Ive spoken of my older reining mare before..the old lady will be 20 in March. She is an accomplished reiner, money earner, year end division winner. She is broke to death. I use her for my lessons..right now, she has a young girl who is just learning to ride, all the way up to last weekend taking one of my more advanced students to her first horseshow. The fact she has inexperienced people on her, to semi experienced hasnt made her "forget" her training. I can still get on her and put her thru her paces. This is possible because she is TRULY well trained.

Now, there are horses out there..who look REALLY cool, who are not "well trained"..I see this alot of times with futurity reining horses trained by professionals..they are highpowered, highly trained youngsters..but, they are young and the training hasnt been "solidified" yet, if you will. Put a really green rider on them and the horse walks all over the rider.

I personally think an older "weekend warrior" type horse is PERFECT for beginner riders.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

spinandslide said:


> This is a problem I have..if in fact the horse IS well trained, you'd have to do ALOT to ruin the horse..and the mindset of "Im going to ruin the horse" when people GET a nice horse causes a slew of issues..as some people are afraid to actually RIDE the horse.
> 
> Ive spoken of my older reining mare before..the old lady will be 20 in March. She is an accomplished reiner, money earner, year end division winner. She is broke to death. I use her for my lessons..right now, she has a young girl who is just learning to ride, all the way up to last weekend taking one of my more advanced students to her first horseshow. The fact she has inexperienced people on her, to semi experienced hasnt made her "forget" her training. I can still get on her and put her thru her paces. This is possible because she is TRULY well trained. QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## commonsense (Jun 1, 2008)

I'm a serious rider. When I ride (not nearly often enough!!) I am constantly evaluating both my horse and myself, looking for optimal communication and teamwork. Whether I'm trailriding or schooling in the arena, it satisfies me deeply to achieve a pleasant ride on a happy and willing horse. 

My love is dressage, but discipline doesn't really matter. Working with purpose and having compassion for the horse equate to serious riding in my mind. Doesn't matter if your goal is to cross streams on trails without fuss or bother, to handle unexpected animal appearances without bolting, to execute delicate maneuvers on a 1200lb animal. If you can achieve whatever your goal is in a manner that is kind and consistent for the horse, you look like a serious rider to me! 

@CathleenC, never listen to anyone who wants to tell you it can't be done without loads of money. I always enjoyed scoring high on tests at rated dressage shows, in some cases under international judges, on my $500 15hh horse, too broke to even rent a stall, so I showed out of my one-horse trailer, pulled by my 4 cylinder truck, wearing my State Line Tack show clothes and using my Wintec saddle. Not to be mean, but it was kinda fun to beat the horse/rider combos that were just oooozing money! Hard work and ambition!


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

Although I am a hobby rider I felt like a pretty serious rider while i was hanging on for dear life today:>)


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## commonsense (Jun 1, 2008)

lamoncha lover said:


> Although I am a hobby rider I felt like a pretty serious rider while i was hanging on for dear life today:>)


LOL Nice!!


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> In my area, there are people who have ridden "their whole life" and dont know their leads.


I can think of a dozen working cowboys, off the top of my head, who don't know leads. 
DH does, but that's just because the kids are in 4H.

That's hardly a criterion for the measurement of horsemanship... :shrug:


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

How do you figure that?

Had a cowboy tell me once "leads don't matter"..

I told him if he had a 2000 bull at the end of his rope and needed to make a quick turn it might..

Most "working" cowboys, as in dayworkers around here, can ride the hair off of a bronc..but when it comes to more then just basic knowledge (likes leads, a correct stop,ect)..they simply don't know...and the majority of them don't care to know..even if it would make their and their horse's jobs easier.

My husband grew up on a ranch, no formal training. He made the effort to become better..he didnt know leads, diagnols,ect..he does now. he made the effort to gain the knowledge. JMO


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

Let me be clear..I am not trying to sound snooty..if a person wants to cruise around on the wrong lead, great..but dont tell me leads "don't matter" or complain when you dont do well at the local ranch show, but wont make the effort to become better or learn.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

spinandslide said:


> How do you figure that?
> 
> Had a cowboy tell me once "leads don't matter"..
> 
> ...


I agree that leads _do_ matter and that many people (that actually should) don't have a clue why they are important. :stars:


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

My point is simply that that is a silly criterion for whether one is a good horseman or not. :shrug:


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I think the harder we look for a definition of serious rider, the more complicated it gets. I'd to think the old rancher would qualify as a serious horseman but by the definitions set out here, his 70 years on a horse would be disqualified. Using him as an example, I can see where ErinP is coming from, he darned sure works using leads but he does it instinctively and likely he learned what it was called when he read an article in the Western Horseman.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I think the rancher is a different kind of "serious rider." He may not know which lead is which, but he has a perfect seat, leg and control for what he does. Likewise, a dressage rider is different, but has perfect seat, leg and control for what s/he does. I am not sure a rancher could do dressage patterns, but I am not sure a dressage rider could rope a calf, either, KWIM? I admire the rancher who goes out at a full speed gallop, stands in his stirrups and ropes a cow...I admire the perfect precision of dressage, the gutsy go get 'em of endurance, the beauty of hunter, even side saddle gets a nod of admiration! Each discipline focuses on something different...a cutting quarter horse is something to be admired, the flashy dressage warmblood, the gutsy arab endurance; each discipline is a wonder in and of itself. I am thrilled to be a part of this world, even though I only muddle along on the occasional trail ride. My trails are nothing to sneeze at, though...I am so jealous of people with pics of trail rides on actual, wide, even trails...mine are rocky, hilly, cliff-y, wet...always a challenge of some sort or another!


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## pheasantplucker (Feb 20, 2007)

If you ride and continue to improve technique and practice skills and you keep safety and your horse's well-being at the forefront, then IMO you're a serious rider, and it makes no difference whether you're in a ring or on a trail. I agree with someone else who said, it is probably a case of someone saying that to make himself sound superior. Some people feel a need to do that.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> I think the harder we look for a definition of serious rider, the more complicated it gets. I'd to think the old rancher would qualify as a serious horseman but by the definitions set out here, his 70 years on a horse would be disqualified. Using him as an example, I can see where ErinP is coming from, he darned sure works using leads but he does it instinctively and likely he learned what it was called when he read an article in the Western Horseman.


The fact that your father reads Western Horseman is an indication that he is serious about his livelihood, wr. It's the people that think that leads, training, health issues etc. don't matter or are not important that are just getting by. If you seek _additional_ knowledge it makes you serious about that subject. At least that's the way I see it...


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

I would venture to guess the vast majority of working cowboys out there read Western Horseman. And _still_ don't know leads. lol (Do you read Western Horseman? Wanna guess how often the subject of leads actually comes up?)




spinandslide said:


> Let me be clear..I am not trying to sound snooty..if a person wants to cruise around on the wrong lead, great..but dont tell me leads "don't matter" or complain when you dont do well at the local ranch show, but wont make the effort to become better or learn.


"Show???" 
Why would you think a _show_ would be the determiner of someone's horsemanship?

This makes me think you don't actually understand what is the priority is that I'm speaking of... For that matter, I've seen enough shows of various calibers to know that a _lot_ of people who are in the ring know diddley squat about their horse.

But man, they know their leads! 


My point was the same as beccachow's--  Different people in this world have different needs and different foci.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

ErinP said:


> My point is simply that that is a silly criterion for whether one is a good horseman or not. :shrug:


its the simple fact of, do you want to learn??? 

THAT, IMO, divides serious horsemen and everyone else. a serious horseman is always looking to improve and gain more knowledge...be he trail, show or ranch rider.

If that makes my opinion "silly", so be it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

ErinP said:


> I would venture to guess the vast majority of working cowboys out there read Western Horseman. And _still_ don't know leads. lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You still don't think leads are important? Try being on the wrong lead coming off a tight turn. I've never roped but the scenario that Spin stated with a huge bull is spot on and scary as hell. 

I absolutely agree that many show people are not horsemen, but being a ranch hand doesn't automatically make you one either.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

spinandslide said:


> its the simple fact of, do you want to learn???
> 
> THAT, IMO, divides serious horsemen and everyone else. a serious horseman is always looking to improve and gain more knowledge...be he trail, show or ranch rider.
> 
> If that makes my opinion "silly", so be it.


I used to be a serious horse person but I'm just retired and silly now.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

ErinP said:


> I would venture to guess the vast majority of working cowboys out there read Western Horseman. And _still_ don't know leads. lol (Do you read Western Horseman? Wanna guess how often the subject of leads actually comes up?)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I must ask you, have YOU read Western Horseman recently? they talk ALOT about the finer points of riding....Al Dunning contributes regularly, I also remember reading an article on turnarounds by Bob Avila. 

If you want to cruise around on the wrong lead, so be it..if it works for you, so be it..but dont tell me leads dont matter..because they do...

I bring up show as many of the "Working cowboys" come to ranch shows in our area..Im part of an organization that puts on regular ranch shows and rodeos thruout the year, not traditional shows, but shows for actual working cowboys and cowgirls with a practical application behind all the "madness"....we had some folks whine and throw hissy fits because "leads dont matter"..told them they DO matter, offered educational opportunties for them..these were actual working cowboys. guess what? they went home, practiced, went to clinics and discovered, holy guacamole, they DO matter..and not just because the pattern at a show dictates it..it has a practicial application.

When I use my horse to move cattle or work cattle in a pasture leads matter..a balanced stop matters..all finer points of horsemanship that make MY ride easier and make my horse's work easier.

I know a good many "working" cowboys..and they all know their leads and how important they are. are they obsessed with them? no..but they do realize their significance..THAT is my point...its one thing to simply "not care"..its quite another to think they don't matter.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> I used to be a serious horse person but I'm just retired and silly now.


Ive found, as I have "aged", the competition area I so loved years ago has lost it's draw..3AM mornings just dont do it for me anymore. I've found I simply enjoy riding and training...Ive fallen into that "silly" sect of middle aged women who simply ENJOY their horses..LOL

Funny, without the added stress of making sure young horses were ready for show, Ive decided to take a step back and take the "long way" in finishing my currently filly...she will be my bridle horse "experiment"..I "plan" to bring her along in the traditional "Vaquero" way..should be a great learning experience for both of us.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here...
I never said they don't matter. 


I said it's a silly thing upon which to base an opinion of whether one is or is not a good horseman. :shrug:


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

"serious" horseman was the subject..and my issue was you taking my comment out of context in my original post..

a serious horseman, IMO, keeps learning..the attitude displayed by many in my area is "well I grew up on a horse, I dont need to know anything else." this attitude makes little sense to me, as a serious horseman keeps an open mind and tries to learn. We all dont know everything there is to know about horses..the attitude displayed by the comment "leads don't matter" is an example of the attitude.

I will add, I would hope a "good" horseman would realize the potential significance of good horsemanship, even in daywork.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

spinandslide said:


> Ive found, as I have "aged", the competition area I so loved years ago has lost it's draw..3AM mornings just dont do it for me anymore. I've found I simply enjoy riding and training...Ive fallen into that "silly" sect of middle aged women who simply ENJOY their horses..LOL
> 
> Funny, without the added stress of making sure young horses were ready for show, Ive decided to take a step back and take the "long way" in finishing my currently filly...she will be my bridle horse "experiment"..I "plan" to bring her along in the traditional "Vaquero" way..should be a great learning experience for both of us.


I agree. I enjoy the mares more now than when I was breeding- there are only the two mares, no worrying about if they are going to settle and if she did would she slip, or if the market was up or down. Prior to that I reworked spoiled horses which was rather depressing because I often had the same horses back year after year, or when giving lessons well there are absolutely spoiled kids as well... I rather like being "silly", but I still take the time to learn and I think that's the most important thing.

I like your filly and how you're working her.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

spinandslide said:


> "serious" horseman was the subject..and my issue was you taking my comment out of context in my original post..
> 
> a serious horseman, IMO, keeps learning..the attitude displayed by many in my area is "well I grew up on a horse, I dont need to know anything else." this attitude makes little sense to me, as a serious horseman keeps an open mind and tries to learn. We all dont know everything there is to know about horses..the attitude displayed by the comment "leads don't matter" is an example of the attitude.
> 
> I will add, I would hope a "good" horseman would realize the potential significance of good horsemanship, even in daywork.



("Working cowboys" don't necessarily do daywork, btw. In fact, I would venture to guess, most of them are employed full-time by a specific ranch.)

And I didn't take your comment out of context. Your original comment said


> In my area, there are people who have ridden "their whole life" and dont know their leads.
> 
> IMO, one can be a rider who strives for knowledge and for making their horse the best they can be..and not look to compete or even compete outside of local shows.


Nothing about "leads don't matter." Just that they don't know them. 

However, for most cowboys, they genuinely DON'T matter. Sorry, they just don't. 
It's nice to have them in the lead you want, just to have a smoother lope (when you're actually loping that is), but most of the time it really doesn't matter. And really, most cattle work is done at a trot or even just a walk.
BTW, yes, I've read Western Horseman lately. I've been a subscriber for about 20 years... 

And that's a good example, actually. There is a lot of information in Western Horseman that is excellent. However, if I don't see an application in my day to day life, I'm probably going to skip over it. 

Side passing, as an example. I just recently learned to side pass (and more importantly, to teach my horse to do so). I've never had a purpose for side passing before we started working at a feedlot. Feedlots have lots of gates that swing. Perfect to side pass your horse over to, open, and then swing, while side passing the other direction. So it was a skill that now had a purpose.
Ranches, on the other hand, tend to have wire gates. You have to dismount to open them. And, more importantly, have to be on the ground to CLOSE them. lol Unless you do corral work more than twice a year (like most places), there's really not a big need to side pass. 

They had an article in there a few months ago about teaching your horse to bow. I haven't seen an application for that, so I haven't bothered. 
Yet.



Not learning a skill because there's no discernible purpose for it in your discipline doesn't somehow make someone less of a horseman... Which has been my point.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Well, if you're mainly going to walk/trot why bother with neck reining, working off the leg/seat or any of the other basics?  Leads, pivots, roll backs, spins, correct stops etc... are just stuff "show people" do, right? :stars:


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

glad you are happy with what you are doing Erin..more power to you to never branch off of that path unless you find a "practical application" for it..

People who have ridden their whole life and don't know their leads, due to sheer lack of want to to learn..I really don't understand it..that was my point. you obviously took offense to the statement..why Im not sure..

I dont agree with you in your general line of thought 100%, nor do I understand your thought process..*shrugs*..but whatever..

I gave up awhile ago trying to change closed minds..and so, I will bow out of this conversation before I do end up with keyboard marks on my forehead...and go back to my impractical way of riding.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> I agree. I enjoy the mares more now than when I was breeding- there are only the two mares, no worrying about if they are going to settle and if she did would she slip, or if the market was up or down. Prior to that I reworked spoiled horses which was rather depressing because I often had the same horses back year after year, or when giving lessons well there are absolutely spoiled kids as well... I rather like being "silly", but I still take the time to learn and I think that's the most important thing.
> 
> I like your filly and how you're working her.


See, learning IS the most important thing..at least IMO. I give riding lessons and I myself still work with my coach and take lessons from her. My students are always surprised by this..

I learned awhile ago, while I may not find that particular skill or way of doing something "useful" or working on my current animal..I may have a situation or animal in the future who would benefit from that skill or approach to a problem. I file it away..I may never use it, but I learned something new and I MAY use it in the future...

That was my whole point..I think sometimes people label themselves as "professionals" or "serious" riders..but to me, even with those labels, you should still be learning and expanding your knowledge...never to proud to learn.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I just came in from cleaning stalls (I find I do my best thinkin' while mucking) I assumed that ranch horses were well broke and knew all the basics- w/t/c (of course), working off the leg fore and hind, sidepassing, auto lead changes, soft smooth stops, rollbacks, pivots (fore and rear) etc... the horses that I've ridden did, in fact I considered them finished. Most of these horses were from out West but a couple were from Mexico. I hear "working ranch horse" and I just thought all of them were finished and that was the goal of making a ranch horse. Am I wrong? Granted, I haven't worked with a real "working" horse in _years_ and everything in the last 15 years has been either lower level show or well trained but needed a tune up trail horses (excluding my daughter's hunters and her trainer's dressage horse both were mid level) prior to that I worked with reiners and barrel horses and I've never worked cattle. Are my expectations of a working ranch horse that far off?


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Yep. They are.

A working ranch horse is nothing more than a cow with a lot of cattle sense. 

Some will do all of the above, depending on what his rider likes to play with. Generally those are horses with what's known as "a lot of buttons." 
Shoot, I just rode a friend's 8 year old horse a couple of weeks ago who can't even neck rein. She does, however, work _really_ well off the legs. 
Jeff simply doesn't use his reins a lot, consequently, his horse doesn't either. 

For me, on the other hand, I need a horse that bends when I ask them to. My horses all neck rein well, move off the fore or hind, spin relatively well, etc. That's what _I_ need. But, as mentioned before, they only recently learned to sidepass because it's only in the last year or so that I've had a regular purpose for it. 


To the original comment about leads, it really has nothing to do with a "lack of want to to learn..." It's simply not seeing a purpose for it. 
It also doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being too proud to learn. There are only so many hours in the day... 

Like I said before, why teach a skill you're not going to use on a somewhat regular basis? 

I could teach my horses to bow, but _why_? 
It's not that I'm too proud to learn. It's just that I have other things to do with my day and I simply don't see a reason to bother teaching something I haven't found a use for.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

showed an incredible amount of prejudice to certain disciplines and against others and ignorance.
I have been riding pretty much (on and off) my complete adult life. And I don't know my leads. In my case I am wanting to learn them and working towards it. If I am going to cue my horse to canter I mise well cue it on the correct lead. It doesn't take any longer. Right now I am simply teaching my gaited horses that breaking into a canter is ok. But I hope to also teach the correct leads.This will be new for me. Even when I can do the correct leads that alone will not make me a serious rider. 
My sister moved along quite rapidly from newbie to placing well in endurance races. All while not knowing about leads or posting proper diagnals. . It didn't seem to stop her at all.
I think by the responses on here it is clear. Every person has their own definition of "serious rider"


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

If you stop learning (or teaching) you stop growing, some say you stop living.

If the rough basics are good enough so be it, I teach things I won't need everyday because it expands my knowledge and my horses's skill- be it bowing, shaking hands, flying changes, or sidepassing. To each his own.

ETA: While I was putting out hay and turning mares out I was thinking about this thread- and I think some working ranch horses are a lot like the Amish horses around here, trained to do one thing rather like a piece of machinery, nothing more or nothing else. Which is what they are needed to do...


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

lamoncha lover said:


> showed an incredible amount of prejudice to certain disciplines and against others and ignorance.
> I have been riding pretty much (on and off) my complete adult life. And I don't know my leads. In my case I am wanting to learn them and working towards it. If I am going to cue my horse to canter I mise well cue it on the correct lead. It doesn't take any longer. Right now I am simply teaching my gaited horses that breaking into a canter is ok. But I hope to also teach the correct leads.This will be new for me. Even when I can do the correct leads that alone will not make me a serious rider.
> My sister moved along quite rapidly from newbie to placing well in endurance races. All while not knowing about leads or posting proper diagnals. . It didn't seem to stop her at all.
> I think by the responses on here it is clear. Every person has their own definition of "serious rider"


Leads are important to know when endurance riding, and posting diagionals even more important, though I would say that many, many endurance riders don't know leads or diagonals. Most of the riders I would not be keen to emulate. Endurance is one sport that a person can quickly become good as long as you have a fit horse. It does not take years of learning to ride properly, lessons, or training for the horse. Other equine sports are much more difficult to do well, in my opinion. In my first season of endurance, my horse and I are in first or second (not sure) overall placing in all of the Novices in all of the upper midwest. We did not need a trainer, lessons, or training beyond what a trail horse knows. We conditioned, and I rode alot. That's all.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

Im going to say it one more time..and if it makes me a snob or "ignorant"..so be it..I really don't care. 

LEARNING is important..if you dont WANT to learn and expand your knowledge..so be it..have at it...but remember..

learning doesnt always take money..all it takes is alittle effort, and alittle bit of being humble and looking for help.

Mabey because I instruct I feel this way? mabey it was my upbringing? who knows..All I know is, in MY area, people DONT make the effort, they wont admit when they dont know something and they wont take opportunities when they are offered to them to become BETTER...IMO, its a shame. Even if all you do is mosey down the trail, why wouldnt you want to learn?


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

birchtreefarm said:


> So ... someone said to me that "serious" riders are those that are into jumping, dressage, etc, not "just" trail riding. IOW, people who have a horse or horses for trail riding are not "serious riders."
> 
> What say you all?


I hope spinsandslide knows that I was referring to the above op when i said they were ignorant to say that. I certainly would not call them ignorant.
How does one know that "just" a trail rider isn't learning? Doesn't take lessons? Doesn't know and use correct cues? Isn't interested in being more then a passenger on their horse? Doesn't give proper care to their horses?
Seems to me the OP is quite a blanket statement.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

LL- I agree the original phrase was not true (regarding serious riders).

To me, as I said, a serious rider is someone who wants to learn..doesnt always mean lessons..you can learn from other resources too. I have many friends who I consider "serious" riders who only ride the trails..they love to ride, take great care of their horses and are always looking for knowledge..

that "being a sponge" regarding knowledge is, to me, the mark of a serious horseperson...and plenty of people in the disaplines mentioned take a "I dont need to know anything else" approach too..it has little to do with the activity they do with their horse and more about their mental approach.


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## chewie (Jun 9, 2008)

i am going to have to 'agree' with erin p here wholeheartedly. we live doing similar and i think unless you live it, you dont' get it. often the 'proper' way just cant' be done, time doesn't wait.  

our horses will go where pointed, and DH has won ranch rodeos on them, we can do about anything we need to with them. and if they need to do something yet more, _then_ they get taught, like in her gate examples. well said there. 

but, to waste our time to teach something that won't be used again, well, why?? as for the leads issue, most use them, but like erin was pointing out, just dont' worry about being 'proper' and just do what works. lots of it done by 'instinct' i guess you'd call it. if asked, they probably could tell you 'yeah, i was in the left/right lead there' but they i am certain, didn't think it over before being asked. if they are going to drag that bull, they just get that horse going 'right', cuz with a bull on a rope, they have more to worry about than 'being proper'.

learning doesn't stop, but teaching a skill that will go unsed isn't going to be a good use of time. but serious, oh YES. serious, hard core riding. good luck to keep up with them! i used to but as i have gotten a bit older, well, i am happy to watch gates! but i know i do my best riding when working cattle, cuz you just DO and not worry or overthink about the 'proper' ways, etc. no time for that, just go all out and sort it later!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Apparently I haven't explained myself well- on a properly trained horse, it doesn't matter if it's a working ranch horse, a dressage horse, a field hunter, or a trail horse, riding should be automatic. When riding a well broke "finished" horse, all you really need to do is think about what you want and you automatically cue the horse to do what you ask BUT that only happens if the horse has been properly trained in it's field. Leads, leg yields, moving the fore and hind should be automatic and they can't be if the horse doesn't have a proper basic education. I have ridden working ranch horses and they were finished so I _know_ they're out there and they were a joy to ride. 

Life is learning and teaching without it you stagnate. Sometimes that means learning or teaching something you can't use this second but you will be able to add to that skill later on for something you can use. I've met very serious trail riders, not serious show riders, and everything in between but the difference is wanting to learn.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> Apparently I haven't explained myself well- on a properly trained horse, it doesn't matter if it's a working ranch horse, a dressage horse, a field hunter, or a trail horse, riding should be automatic. When riding a well broke "finished" horse, all you really need to do is think about what you want and you automatically cue the horse to do what you ask BUT that only happens if the horse has been properly trained in it's field. Leads, leg yields, moving the fore and hind should be automatic and they can't be if the horse doesn't have a proper basic education. I have ridden working ranch horses and they were finished so I _know_ they're out there and they were a joy to ride.
> 
> Life is learning and teaching without it you stagnate. Sometimes that means learning or teaching something you can't use this second but you will be able to add to that skill later on for something you can use. I've met very serious trail riders, not serious show riders, and everything in between but the difference is wanting to learn.


Exactly. Anything that you practice enough, will become automatic. For years I worked on half-halts, up and down transitions, bending around corners, etc. (not that I don't anymore!), but in the beginning years - yes, years - I had to think about each and every one. Now, it's automatic (most of the time) and my horse knows when I just think it - because my body automatically cues him, even ever so subtle - when I think "down transition" or "up transition" - he does it.

I and my horse are by no means finished with learning or training! He's only six years old, and I intend to have another 15-20 years of riding, training, and learning with him!


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

What IP said..

and chewie, I do "live it"...have for afew years now.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

lamoncha lover said:


> I hope spinsandslide knows that I was referring to the above op when i said they were ignorant to say that. I certainly would not call them ignorant.
> How does one know that "just" a trail rider isn't learning? Doesn't take lessons? Doesn't know and use correct cues? Isn't interested in being more then a passenger on their horse? Doesn't give proper care to their horses?
> Seems to me the OP is quite a blanket statement.


As it turned out, when I went back to the person who made the original statement to me, they said they weren't dissing trail riders as "not serious" solely because they did trail riding, but that they felt a certain group of trail riders they knew were not "serious" about their riding at all, whereas they themselves were serious about not only trail riding, but also dressage, jumping, etc. Of course they didn't SAY that the first time, so I was sort of taken aback at their apparently snobbish attitude (as I interpreted it at first).


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

Unfortunately a large percentage of people who consider themselves trail riders have not taken the time to educate themselves about good horsemanship, and that tends to throw a bad light on trail riders who are serious.


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## Laura Workman (May 10, 2002)

goodhors said:


> Folks are taking offense when none is being offered. If you feel "dissed" than you have made it so yourself.


I think maybe there's a problem with terminology. Maybe something other than "serious" should be used to describe riders with a more professional view of their riding. After all, if you're not "serious," then you're. . . what? The opposite of serious? Synonym.com has that as: frivolous (vs. serious)
airheaded, dizzy, empty-headed, featherbrained, giddy, light-headed, lightheaded, sillyflighty, flyaway, head-in-the-clouds, scatterbrainedflippant, light-mindedidle, lightlighttrivial

I guess I can understand where most might take offense at this kind of implication.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

I believe there are "serious" riders in any discipline. Some are serious jumpers, some serious cowboys/girls, and some serious trail riders. Personally, I don't care if someone considers me a "serious" rider or not. I love to trail ride, love my horses, and always want to push myself to the next level. I suppose it comes with age, but I gave up caring what others thought awhile ago. Now, its all about me. LOL


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Personally, I have no quarrel with anyone who wants to keep a horse to just hack around and enjoy an outing on the weekend. It's not a requirement to be trying for the Olympics in order to enjoy the company of a horse.

As long as the horse is properly cared for, I am sure he doesn't mind if his job is to slouch around on the trails, walk through a mud puddle or two, and not dump his rider off.

It's not the way I ride and my horses were expected to work, but I don't expect anyone else to ride like I do (unless they are my riding students or they think they would like to ride one of my horses). There is nothing wrong with simply going out and having a good time with a horse.


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