# Unplanned Litter



## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

I didn't catch her heat cycle in time. The good news is she is a fantastic lgd and so is the sire. My regrets are she had litters in successive cycles and I've never thought that was a good idea. She raised 8 of 8 very nice pups so I'm praying she can do it with 12!


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Oh dear. I counted 12 puppies....

That does make it difficult. I had a shepherd mix who gave birth to 11 and she actually divided them into two groups, feeding one at a time whilel the other slept. She kept them a few feet apart. It was amazing to watch.

I totally agree back-to-back breeding is not the best; yet there they are! Do keep us informed as to how they do...BTW what breed is that LGD?


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

Yes it is a Large litter and I intend to help her as much as possible. I would definitely appreciate feedback on any nutritional, supplemental etc recommendations. I've been feeding her Purina Puppy Chow for three weeks. I've done that in the past and my vet said it helps the dam produce milk. I don't have a clue if he has a clue. I will start feeding the puppies at about three weeks. They are Akbash and they get big pretty fast and will drain their momma. 

I have to do a better job of determining when she is coming in heat. I have a 20' X 10' pen that the boys can't get in but I just missed the signs. 

They are 24 hours old in the picture. She had 11 puppies in about 4 hours ending about 9pm. At 1am she still had 11 but I checked her when I got up yesterday morning there were 12!!!


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

So you woke to a surprise of another...LOL How is she doing? 

It wouldn't hurt to give her a bit of Vit C, a raw egg daily and, if you raise dairy goats, a bit of that milk.  

Since she's an LGD, where is she? In barn or a birthing kennel or ??? That looks like pine shavings those babies are on.

Just a side note. I have a Karakachan and she cycled quicker than I expected too. Seems like it was around 4-5 months after the other cycle... I was fortunate in that my male lab (only other dog I have at this time) was neutered the year before.


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## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

There have actually been some studies done that indicate skipping a heat cycle between breedings is worse for a dog's health than back-to-back breeding. The reason given is that dogs don't shed the uterine lining with a heat cycle in the way that humans do, so are more subject to pyometra if they are not bred. The trend these days therefore, is to breed back-to-back for up to 4 litters and then spay so as not to wear the dog out with continuous litters.

Congratulations on a large, healthy litter!


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

She is in a barn in a whelping box that is 4'x6' She can exit the box to get food and water in a stall that has a 30" gate which prevents the sheep from entering. 

I have laying hens so I will start her on eggs tomorrow as well as Vit C. I don't have dairy goats but I'm great full for the advice. 

Oh yes, they are on pine shavings as that is what I did with the last litter. I am open to suggestions if the pine might present a problem. I get it free is the reason I use it. I have a board 4 inches from the bottom of of the walls to prevent her from smashing a pup. The shavings are a couple of inches deep which give a cushioning effect. I have a fan above them to give a little circulation because it is hot and humid in Alabama.


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

Thanks for that perspective Moboiku. I have never heard that information. I just had the idea that it was putting a lot of pressure on her. It seems that she had just got her figure back and I kind of felt sorry for her. She still wanted to patrol the perimeter last week but lagged way behind the other dogs.


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## kalmara (Aug 21, 2011)

Back to Back litters are OK - Moboiku is quite correct  You will need to increase her meals 3 fold. Include eggs/milk/raw meat. With such a large litter I would also give her a calcium supplement daily to ward off eclampsia. Fenugreek (powder) is great for boosting milk supply. 
At 3 weeks old start weaning with yogurt & raw chicken mince
I have raised litters for 30yrs, but never used shavings - I can't see how the Dam can keep the pups clean & dry & warm on shavings. Be interested to know how this works for you


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

Thank you Kalmara. I am not familiar with Fenugreek but will google. Is it a powder that is mixed in water or sprinkled on food? 

The pups are on a dirt floor is why I put down shavings. I had a litter in the fall that did really well but that was my first experience with pups in a barn. I can put down plywood if that will be better.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Aleefarms, I sure like your attitude toward those dogs! If you were closer I'ld grab one of those Akbash pups as I've been wanting one for awhile now. (I think a "pup" would work out fine with the two grown...fixed...dogs I now have.)


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

Thank you Motdaugrnds. I know there is a great deal of wisdom on this forum and my desire is for each puppy to have the best opportunity to achieve their potential. 

I also wanted Akbash for a couple of years and then I found 2 registered brothers in north Georgia on CL(free to a good home!) They had a couple of undesirable habits that had developed at no fault of the dogs. I was able to correct their behavior by establishing myself as the authoritative figure. They happily accepted their role. 

I bought my female from Tamara Taylor in north Texas at 16 weeks old. She flew from Dallas to Birmingham and when I picked her up I didn't have a name for her. I looked at the crate and it had a sticker that said DALLAS, hence her name. She was a natural with all of the instincts you could ask for with very little need for corrections. The only complaint was she chewed the wiring harness right off the tractor and a hole in the seat of my Kawasaki mule.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

aleefarms said:


> I've been feeding her Purina Puppy Chow for three weeks. I've done that in the past and my vet said it helps the dam produce milk. I don't have a clue if he has a clue.


I've always heard you feed nursing mothers puppy food. I would also get the pups on supplemental food as quickly as they'll take it.


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## kalmara (Aug 21, 2011)

aleefarms said:


> Thank you Kalmara. I am not familiar with Fenugreek but will google. Is it a powder that is mixed in water or sprinkled on food?
> 
> The pups are on a dirt floor is why I put down shavings. I had a litter in the fall that did really well but that was my first experience with pups in a barn. I can put down plywood if that will be better.


Fenugreek is in powder form - I usually mix it with ice cream, or an egg & milk mixture. I've never whelped a litter in a barn. I use a whelping box in the house & have Dri Beds (you may know as Vet Bed) over the top of a thin padding. The Dri Beds wick away any moisture to keep the pups warm & dry.


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## Jlynnp (Sep 9, 2014)

My personal opinion is that there are better choices for food rather than Purina Puppy Chow. Personally I fed a higher quality food to my nursing Mom's. I would suggest you add some yogurt or cottage cheese to her food for additional calcium as the older the pups get and they nurse they will quickly deplete Mom of calcium. 

As for back to back breedings I once attended a seminar given by a well respected reproduction vet who also felt that it was better to breed back to back and spay rather than leave the uterus open and risk pyometra. 

Not sure where you are in Alabama but we are in TN and would be very interested in one of the puppies as we are currently looking for a dog to help on our farm. Please let me know by PM if there will be puppies available.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Purina has a lot of filler. Purina puppy chow has less filler. But, a high end food would still be better. TSC sells Taste of the Wild. Instead of supplementing with calcium, I think you should give her raw bones. A bone will have all of the nutrients needed to assimilate the calcium. You can also give her egg shells in lieu of bones. Eggs are a complete food if the shell is included.

Don't worry about force weaning. They will be healthier nursing from their mother instead of other food for as long as she can. Then, keep them with their mom, just add a bit soaked high quality kibble or raw.

I have also read that some vets prefer to see back to back breeding. As long as the ***** has put back on her weight and is in good health.


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

Thanks for the recommendations. As expected there are a lot of different views on what is best I feel like everyone shares what has been successful for them and I am confident I can glean some helpful information. 

One thing I can attest to is her appetite has increased significantly! I have been feeding eggs, raw turkey and puppy chow. Her intake is at least tripled and she looks good. So far the pups are satisfied but I want to stay ahead of the milk production. Thanks


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

UPDATE:

The puppies are 3 weeks old today and I am happy to say they are all doing great as well as the mom. She has plenty of milk and stayed in really good shape. 

Motdaugrnds, this morning when I went to the barn I only found 6 pups so I called Dallas who appeared pretty quick but I didn't know where from. She jumped the 30" puppy gate and led me to her other 6 which were about 100 feet away in another part of the barn.


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

The puppies are a month old today and doing well.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

I feed mine Victor dog food.http://www.victordogfood.com typically can find them in feed store. I feed the high protein bag because that's what works for me. Just keep the pups wormed every 2 weeks (starting at 2 weeks..worm the mom and she'll pass it on in her milk then at 4 weeks, give it to the pups directly) and you'll do fine. Worming is far more important than anything else because the mother can pass on worms to the pups in her milk and virtually every mother dog has done that even if they're kept on a worming schedule. Your pups look adorable!


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

They found a way into the back yard and were patiently waiting on me this morning. Yesterday they were covered in mud and mysteriously now they are white again. At 7 weeks they are all doing well!


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## CountryMom22 (Nov 27, 2014)

Oh that picture! It sure made me smile! They look like trouble looking for a place to happen!

I bet you'll really miss them when they go to their new homes, too. Enjoy them while you can.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

That photo made me think of _101 Dalmatians._ Just need spots.


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## RideBarefoot (Jun 29, 2008)

That's definitely a calendar shot. What a beautiful litter.


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## muleman232 (Sep 24, 2014)

Your pups are beautiful . I'm glad to see they survived on Puppy Chow , as so many before them have . You should have bought something more expensive , just think how much better they would have looked .


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

How did you get them to all sit facing you when you took the pic? 
They look so lovely, but I bet they are a handful.


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

They were all behind the tree under the picnic table when I walked out and the ran around the tree and took those positions. There was only one that didn't make the picture. 

They have not been a handful as you might think. They come running when they see the feed bucket or if they are not in sight I whistle for them. After eating they break off into small groups and explore or sleep pretty independent of each other. I really enjoy this breeds attitude in that they are not aloof but they are not needy. They are confident in their role.


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