# The "mark of the beast" and prepping



## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

A bit of a strange thought struck me today - while I was researching something on an entirely different subject! LOL

We are told in Revelation how the mark of the beast will have to be taken by everyone. And that those without the mark will not be allowed to trade. 

I had always thought that the mark would be something we took without realising it (like SS numbers or something similar) but someone, I think on here, said that it would be a question of knowingly accepting the mark and denouncing God.

The implication is that "nearly" everyone would take the mark - those that don't will starve to death (or similar) because they cannot trade.

Now, lots of preppers I know prepare for trade with other groups. But, what if you can't trade with other groups? If so few will resist the mark - who will you trade with? Sure you can set up communities, but how can you be sure that those who you are sharing with won't take the mark when things get tough? And what then? Do you risk having everything taken from you because someone turns? 

How much do you prep for never being able to trade ever again? 

Just a thought - wonder if I still have a temperature LOL

Any thoughts anyone?


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

a days wage for a loaf of bread.....paraphrased


this is a result of hyperinflation,lack of goods and control by the one in charge.


dont trade and do without......its called "makin do"


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

Before one can understand what the "Mark of the Beast" is ... one must understand what/who the "Beast" is. 

If you don't recognize the beast, how in the world are you going to recognize its mark?

:donut:


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

we are surrounded by a Babylonian system right now...its all around us.



wheres forerunner when you need him....hope he sees this thread and wades in.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

Yes, we are ... Babylonish Confusion, and religious deception.

:donut:

Edited to add: I would LOVE to weigh in.

:donut:


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

glazed said:


> :donut:
> 
> Yes, we are ... Babylonish Confusion, and religious deception.
> 
> ...


i guess its wade in....not weigh in....lol.....get to it sister glaze..preach it


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

I think the believers will be gone. And if we are not taken up by then, we know there would be no more than seven years left, so that is how log you need to be prepped for. 

I believe the mark will be a tiny implant with all personal information on it, like a chip in a credit card. You take it, you can do commerce, you do not, you are left out. To die. Never in the worlds history has there ever been a time where this has been less silly to look at and say it could happen. We have the technology, with the collapse of the world economy potentially imminent, the timing could not be better for some yahoo like Obama, that the world fawns over, to say, "look at me! I have the answers!"

Especially if 80 million or more americans, and countless others worldwide were to be raptured to heaven, imagine the mayhem resulting? economies would collapse. An explanation would be needed. It would be prime time for a new world order, a single currency, and a world hero with all the answers. Without christian influence, society would degenerate into mayhem. Everyone left would look to this guy as a hero. All he has to do, is say the right things, make a new system work, and bring "world peace".

I do think if one is faithful, they will/may be long gone by this time. I think about these things alot. Every time I watch the news, the hatred for israel, the anger towards Christ.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

I completely disagree with Farmer Dale ... His post epitomizes what I meant by Babylonian confusion and religious deception ... not sure if I should wade in, or weigh in, or not.

But, please, know that I DO find this topic fascinating ... including "the rapture" now that it has also been thrown in.

I believe the Bible is the ultimate authority OF what is, and what is not ... not man-made doctrines/fables/traditions.

:donut:


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

i can always count on hoggie to start a good thread.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Do you want me to coddle the thread with kind sentiments or give reality as I see it ?

Let's just start by me agreeing with that Donut Chick in that the deception is MASSIVE and no one, I don't care who they are or what they think they know, has been immune to it.

ETA:

"weigh" in....or "wade" in....... both are correct english and application for this thread.

The former denotes presenting oneself as a formidable contributor in re the subject matter at hand and the capacity to articulate.

The latter denotes the act of entering the room with fists swinging.


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

elkhound said:


> i can always count on hoggie to start a good thread.



LOL - I do my best eep:


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

Forerunner said:


> Do you want me to coddle the thread with kind sentiments or give reality as I see it ?
> 
> Let's just start by me agreeing with that Donut Chick in that the deception is MASSIVE and no one, I don't care who they are or what they think they know, has been immune to it.


Speaking as the OP - I want people to give their honest thoughts and opinions


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

Forerunner said:


> Do you want me to coddle the thread with kind sentiments or give reality as I see it ?
> 
> Let's just start by me agreeing with that Donut Chick in that the deception is MASSIVE and no one, I don't care who they are or what they think they know, has been immune to it.
> 
> ...


speak your heart brother....the truth as you see it.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

hoggie said:


> Speaking as the OP - I want people to give their honest thoughts and opinions


same here.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

Weird, ridiculous theories about the meaning of the "Mark of the Beast" are legion.

To some, this mysterious mark involves major department store credit cards ... to others, various forms of personal identification, such as drivers licenses, social security cards, credit cards ... and the like ... are the "Mark of the Beast."

I have heard/seen allegations that the black stripes which appear on practically every item you purchase is the "Mark of the Beast."

Most of the paranoia associated with the false concepts about the "Mark of the Beast" comes from an underlying false assumption ... and THAT assumption is that the "Mark of the Beast" could be imposed upon you unsuspectingly, secretly, by subterfuge, unwillingly. 

Take a look at Revelation 20:4 .... if you truly care about this subject ... and think deeply about what you will read.

No one WORSHIPS computer-generated bar codes on food packages ... no one WORSHIPS identity cards, or computer chips.

The refusal of these individuals to worship the Beast or his image, or to receive his mark, and who are clearly pictured as being in the Kingdom of Godânow exalted as co-RULERS with Jesus Christâliterally costs them their lives.

They weren't whisked away in some "rapture" ... they were persecuted, and killed.

But my point is this: a conscious/deliberate choice is to be made! 

Notice in that above scripture, if you cared to look, they refused to WORSHIP the Beast, or his image. 

That tells us they KNEW WHAT IT WAS. 

They made a rational/reasoned choice! 

Just as happened during the infamous "inquisition", when hundreds of thousands were put to death for refusing to give up their Bible-based faith, so the Beast and the False Prophet will be attempting to FORCE Christians to bow down to them in worship. 

They will refuse, choosing to OBEY GOD rather than man (Acts 4:10, 19; 5:32) and they will be martyred because of that choice.

Actually, there were countless hundreds of thousands who were martyred during the Middle Ages for the very same reasons.

I must address Farmer Dale, now, and apologize for the digression ... will return to the main topic of the "Mark" in a little while.

:donut:


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

For those of you concerned about "losing your salvation" over this Beast and its Mark:

It is impossible for you to lose salvation "by accident" 

It is utterly impossible for some power to so interfere with your life that it imposes upon you a symbol, identifying sign, some "mark" of some kind which causes you to LOSE OUT on salvation.

_"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

"As it is written, for thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

"Nay, and all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor POWERS, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord!" 
_
(Romans 8:35-39).

Your Bible absolutely promises that NOTHING ...the sword of armed force, principalities, powers ... NOTHING ... nothing can separate you from the love of God, from salvation in and through Jesus Christ.

Read Revelation 20:4 again! 

Here, resurrected saints are seen as inheriting the thrones promised them by Jesus Christ! (Revelation 2:26; 3:21). 

They are resurrected because they were martyred. 

WHY were they martyred? 

Because they adamantly REFUSED to receive the Mark of the Beast.

That should give you the positive reassurance that, even though some brutal men should forcibly hold you down, implant some kind of an identifying microchip under your skin ... which I really don't think that will happen, but I digress ... again, ugh

..... and, so, even though I suppose some soldiers could literally hold your arms, hands, and legs and tattoo the numbers 666 right across your forehead ... in great black ink, two inches high ... it STILL COULD NOT DEPRIVE YOU OF SALVATION. 

Therefore, such silly things ARE NOT the Mark of the Beast.

But make no mistake about this ... you won't be whisked away to avoid such atrocities ... no where does Jesus say you will avoid such things ... He does nothing but warn you over and over to watch ... but that's another deep subject.

:donut:


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

I don't get this whole "rapture thing". Please show me in scripture where any believer has ever been spared trials and tribulation. Messiah himself said that his followers would be persecuted and killed. I think there are going to be a lot of people that are seriously underprepared both spiritually and physically becasue the are counting missing all the ugliness.

The most important thing is to have a strong faith. Prepare for the worst case scenario and pray for the strength to endure and stand steadfast.


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## doodlemom (Apr 4, 2006)

irrelevant-deleted


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

hoggie said:


> Speaking as the OP - I want people to give their honest thoughts and opinions


You may not like my honest opinion but here it is: In general I believe the Bible to be the Word of God, however I do not believe it is inerrant nor that God put exactly what he wanted into it and nothing else. Men wrote the Books of the Bible and other men decided what they thought should go into the collection of books we now call the Bible
I personally think John the revelator was eating too many magic mushrooms when he wrote his Revelations.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

The beast is the worldwide monetary/commerce/citizenship conglomerate...Babylon.
Each participating member carries their own "nation's" version of the mark.

People do have the number stamped in their forehead via memory, and they have it in their hand every time they apply for benefits.

People do worship, a.k.a. love the system represented, i.e. they prefer it, and it's comforts and conveniences....and it's rules....the alternative being the vast wilderness of personal responsibility and liberty that is the Kingdom of God.

People who still might scoff at the notion that the SSN has little or nothing to do with the mark, simply haven't tried buying or selling without one, lately. 

It is incremental, the full manifestation.

My understanding is that there were ministers of God who were killed/disappeared during the time of the New Deal for making clear their convictions, from the pulpit, that the SSN was the mark.

Mark, translated, means badge of servitude. It was commonly worn around the neck in the old days of slaves (employees) and masters (employers).
Anyone ever notice how todays' employers and employees all seem to answer to a higher authority, none really exercising the freedom to hire and conduct business after their own fashion ? That is because there is one employer in the US who has just about squeezed out all the competition.

There will be a choice. Yes, we have been deceived into "taking the mark" but the choice will come, when we are put to the pinch, as to whether or not we begin, upon understanding, to _conscientiously worship_ it, and the system of "securities" and comforts that it "offers".

I believe that day is fast approaching.

I have come to the point that I no longer see eternal salvation, nor eternal ----ation.
I believe we can be in hell, here....as well as be in paradise, here.
I also believe there are far more intense versions of both, in other realms...but, I believe that, no matter where we find ourselves, we will always have a choice, and we will always be able to start moving in the direction of where we at least think we want to be, slow as our progress may seem in escaping the darker realms.

So.... the salvation issue, as per the mark, is entirely relevant, but not to your absolute eternal condition.

I see no rapture. God never rescues His own from the results of their own folly. Indeed, He often seems to enhance the consequences of folly to further emphasize the point of HIS preference. Personally, I hate it when that happens.

As for living through the impending madness ?

Touch and go.

Every day will be a brand new opportunity to learn skills, but moreso, to acknowledge your frail nature and clouded vision, allowing for humility to invoke His strength and vision.

I believe the final manifestation of the mark will be surrounded by complete collapse of the system, (by design) and all of its perks and protections, and that there will be "safe houses" or "concentration camps" where food, shelter and protection may be offered to the unsuspecting. Just flash your card, and you're in.

For those stalwart individuals who choose to face the wilderness, there may be physical salvation on a case-by-case basis.

The bottom line is that there is a battle for dominion, on this rock.

Father has that dominion, for now.

Satan wants it.

All Satan needs to get it is the consent of the earth's inhabitants to his program, known as the beast, started by Cain, some years ago.... commonly referred to as _civil government_....a.k.a. Babylon.

For a telling read on some of the above, I offer this link.

http://presys.com/~ekklesia/chvca.htm

For further practical preparation discussion, well.....let's see what comes up.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Wags said:


> I don't get this whole "rapture thing".


Its an 19th century construct based on one line from the Bible and some persons dream.



> It may come as a surprise but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 C.E. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned it before 1830.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

:thumb:


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

I believe the "Beast" is a symbol of a great super-government, super power.

Bible scholars are virtually 100% agreed that the symbolism of the great image seen by Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 2) represents the four world-ruling empires from the time of ancient Babylon to Persia, Greco/Macedonia, and finally Rome.

Most biblical commentaries expound this view ... even a well-known layman's Bible handbook, Halley's, reconfirms it ... page 342 in my copy) ...

The head of gold represented ancient Babylon. 
The breast and arms of silver represented Persia
The belly and thighs of brass represented Alexander's Greco/Macedonian kingdom

The legs of iron and feet and toes "part of iron and part of miry clay" represented the Roman Empire throughout it's duration ... including a yet future, 10-nation combine which will coalesce in the same region ... and which will fight Christ at His final coming.

(Revelation 17:12-14)

Notice in Chapter 13 of John's Mushroom-Induced Revelation & Warning, Satan is the one who gives power to the Beast.

I think the "Beast" will be a ten-nation alliance which will form together prior to the Second Coming of Christ ... and which will be the greatest economic and military power the world has ever seen up to that time. 

This ten-nation combine is the final "resurrection" of the Roman Empire ... this time armed with chemical, biological and nuclear weapons ... a huge military power which will actually attempt to FIGHT CHRIST at His coming.

_"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

"These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful" _

(Revelation 17:12-14)

I think the Beast will be a ten-nation (ten toes) POLITICAL power ... but it is "ridden" ... or ruled over ... by a great ECCLESIASTICAL power.

This great political, military and ecclesiastical power will have a SIGN ... an identifying MARK ... which it will seek to impose on all who will submit to its will. 

It will not be a "secret" sign, or mark, but an obvious, outward, easily recognized sign.

A simple handshake ... a simple "going along with the flow" ... a "simple acceptance" will do.

If you care, read Revelation 13:15-17 ... this is key, and applies to Hoggie's initial post.

_"And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, OR the name of the beast, or the number of his name."_

Therefore, it is NOT ONLY those who refuse to receive the MARK of the Beast who will be martyred, but also those who refuse to worship the IMAGE of the Beast ... those who refuse to receive the NAME of the Beast ... and those who refuse to receive the NUMBER OF HIS NAME, which is 666.

Now, just what IS the "image of the Beast"? 

In Revelation 13, it has two horns "like a lamb" yet "speaks as a "dragon" influenced by Satan himself. 

Therefore, this beast masquerades as if it is of Christ, yet is of Satan ... and your Bible plainly warns against counterfeits and false prophets, well mine does anyway.

This beast is able to CAUSE WORSHIP ... it is therefore a political and religious system ...it encourages state worship ... it points to the great economic, industrial and MILITARY power of the first beast ... it urges loyalty, servitude, cooperation, and worship upon all of its followers toward this great ten-nation leadership.

The ultimate emergence of the beast power in Europe will absolutely STUN the world ... it will truly become the greatest global super-power the world has ever seen ... it will be so great, so powerful, so economically viable, productive and successful that it will evoke WORSHIP from the masses under its sway ... as well as adoration, adjuration, respect, and worship from nations all over the world ... 

But I digress ... let's talk about the "Mark/Sign" real quick ... _"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads"_

Notice again the symbolism of the hand and the forehead ...

The hand is given in a "handshake" as a form of acceptance or agreement or settlement ... and what goes on in the brain behind your forehead? Our character, our power to choose, our volition resides there!

THERE is where the sign will be ... THERE is the mark: the hand and mind.

:donut:


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I wonder that that ecclesiastical superpower that you mention didn't already rear its Abominable head some thousand years ago and has been manipulating kings and armies, behind the scenes, ever since.

We aren't far off, Glazed.

I understand that you don't want to admit to the "number/mark" being something you are already in possession of.....something tangible. No one else seems to, either.

The crux comes when people decide to let that mark possess them.

That will be an individual choice, manifested by the actions of each, as that little spark of realization finally ignites.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

Since the beginning, God has stated there is a mark/sign for His people ... He said so, explicitly after the creation of the sixth day, and continued to say so throughout history ... and, since the beginning, and throughout history, Satan has perverted/twisted the Truth to confuse.

God is not the author of confusion ... and if He is not, then who is? 

God said there is a MARK/SIGN between Him and His people.

EXAMPLES:

_"And it shall be for a SIGN unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the Eternal's law may be in thy mouth" (Exodus 13:9)

(On your hand = handshake = acceptance = agreement
Between your eyes = Forehead = Brain/Mind)

"And you shall bind them ... (God's commandments) ... for a SIGN upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes" (Deuteronomy 6:8)

(On your hand = handshake = acceptance = agreement
Between your eyes = Forehead = Brain/Mind)

"Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a SIGN upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes" (Deuteronomy 11: 18)_

His MARK is upon you ... a SIGN of acceptance/agreement ... 

You can receive His mark, or the Beast's ... it is a choice.

A Mark/Sign is a simple acceptance, a simple agreement, a simple handshake, a simple acknowledgement ... a choice by hand(shake) and thought. 

:donut:


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

Forerunner said:


> I understand that you don't want to admit to the "number/mark" being something you are already in possession of.....something tangible. No one else seems to, either.


:donut:

A handshake IS tangible, Forerunner ... a hand can be FELT.

It is all around me, everywhere.

I try very hard to resist being nice and polite, you know, don't rock the boat ... it goes against my nature to be rude ... and herein lies the main problem of God's people: temptations all around.

We must armor ourselves.

It is difficult to stay focused ... I pray daily for strength.

:donut:


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

glazed said:


> :donut:
> 
> A handshake IS tangible, Forerunner ... a hand can be FELT.
> 
> ...


....

Oops.... Need clarification here:

"It is all around me, everywhere."

IT being the BEAST.

I am guilty of "dancing with the devil" occasionally ... who's not?

I am ever learning yet always coming short of the knowledge of God ... Who isn't?

:donut:


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

farmerDale said:


> I think the believers will be gone. And if we are not taken up by then, we know there would be no more than seven years left, so that is how log you need to be prepped for.
> 
> I believe the mark will be a tiny implant with all personal information on it, like a chip in a credit card. You take it, you can do commerce, you do not, you are left out. To die. Never in the worlds history has there ever been a time where this has been less silly to look at and say it could happen. We have the technology, with the collapse of the world economy potentially imminent, the timing could not be better for some yahoo like Obama, that the world fawns over, to say, "look at me! I have the answers!"
> 
> ...


I'm one of those that don't believe we'll be gone, but the seven years is the key, regardless of whether you believe in pre-trib, mid trib or another scenario. I also believe that God will intervene on behalf of those who remain faithful. Some will lose their lives, but I look at it like Paul, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So, I will hold out as long as is humanly possible, but in the end, each of our days is measured and those that remain faithful to the end will go to a better place.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Wags said:


> I don't get this whole "rapture thing". Please show me in scripture where any believer has ever been spared trials and tribulation. Messiah himself said that his followers would be persecuted and killed. I think there are going to be a lot of people that are seriously underprepared both spiritually and physically becasue the are counting missing all the ugliness.
> 
> The most important thing is to have a strong faith. Prepare for the worst case scenario and pray for the strength to endure and stand steadfast.


Not sure where the scripture is, but will look it up if anyone wants me to, but the Bible talks about in the last days there will be a great falling away. I believe this is going to happen when those who believed in a pretrib rapture realize they are in the tribulation period and still here. They will lose their faith. Also, one of the things that puzzled me about the whole pretrib rapture is another scripture where John sees the saints and asks who they are and is told these are those who came up out of the great tribulation. You can't come out of something you were never in.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> I'm one of those that don't believe we'll be gone, but the seven years is the key, regardless of whether you believe in pre-trib, mid trib or another scenario. I also believe that God will intervene on behalf of those who remain faithful. Some will lose their lives, but I look at it like Paul, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So, I will hold out as long as is humanly possible, but in the end, each of our days is measured and those that remain faithful to the end will go to a better place.


:donut:

Your last sentence Sonshine brings us back to Hoggie's original post, and actual concern/question ... Which I will attempt to address next.

But my views won't be popular here on a board specifically aimed at survivalists and emergency preparers.

:donut:


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

be as self reliant as you can will help in the long run.being able to make do and be satisfied will go a long ways then and now.

can you eat beans and rice for days on end ?what about only eating a bread product?a lot of people today live like that.we are spoiled in our mind set of what food is etc.

do you have the mind set to be able to set in the dark after the sun sets? can you get by without a refrigerator?eat nothing but lettuce and other greens in spring?eat winter time fair all winter..meat,wheat,corn,acorns etc and not feel deprived because you dont have a fresh tomato?boy are we spoiled if you step back and look at us....this includes me too.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> You can't come out of something you were never in.


:donut:

*BRILLIANT.*

:donut:​


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

hoggie said:


> A bit of a strange thought struck me today - while I was researching something on an entirely different subject! LOL
> 
> We are told in Revelation how the mark of the beast will have to be taken by everyone. And that those without the mark will not be allowed to trade.
> 
> ...



:donut:

Hoggie, my friend, do not worry, saying, &#8216;What shall we eat?&#8217; or &#8216;What shall we drink?&#8217; or &#8216;What shall we wear?&#8217; or 'How shall we trade?" 

For this is what "the others" seek, and think. 

Your heavenly Father knows that you will need all these things. 

So, first, seek Him and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

Do not lay up for your Self treasures on earth ... where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal.

Lay up, instead, treasures in heaven for your Self ... where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 

For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

:donut:


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

one thing i think most dont realize...right now its about as good as it has ever been for most...not all...just as a whole.....the last good bit anyhow.

toss out tribulation thoughts and look at the world history......there has been some real rough times that had nothing to do with end times.how would most in u.s. cope with conditions like during ww2.we are all soft and most cant make hard decisions.
did anyone watch war time farm....have you read accounts of the things went on then.i got direct knowledge of what people done from my uncles while they were in ww2.this and things like it should make you shake in your shoes and prep for no other reason.

right now...katrina...sandy storm...haiti.....need i say more

off my box now....sorry all


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

1. I would love to be in a deep intense study of God's Word with ya'all...

2. I am not promised tomorrow, but I prep just in case it happens. 
If I am alive when Christ comes back to collect me, I pray someone who does not yet know Him will stumble across my preps, and find Him.

3. Sometimes it is all I can do to get though the day I am in. 
So I can't say that I am prepping so that I do not have to take the mark. I cannot take the mark. I am sealed with The Holy Spirit.

4. I want to store up treasures in Heaven. 
I want my kids, my spouse, my family, friends, all those around me to know Christ.....so that they may have Eternal Life. 
Storing up souls, yes.

5. I was not brought up in church so I don't get the whole rapture thing. 
All I know is what's in His Word. I do know that I love the Greek for the NT and the Hebrew for the OT to get deeper truer meanings.

And I appreciate all the input in this thread. Thank you all.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I watched a movie last night........disney edition, _Iron Will_.

Watch it, if you can.

There are two Native American brothers in the dogsled race that is the core of the plot.

I pay close attention to the sobriety and character....the unwavering strength, wisdom, and goodness of those two brothers.

That breed of man is the only one I see surviving the tribulation.

That breed of man has been in the real world long enough to know..... when there is a storm coming, you don't waste time basking in the comforts of the last few moments of sunshine. That breed of man never mentions the discomfort he is experiencing. He takes it as a matter of course, even as a friend who, in spite of his abrasive mannerisms, is only out to sharpen the skills and the wits of his fellows.

There won't be much symbolism in the tribulation days. There won't be much subliminity that can't quite be grasped. There won't be many arm chair discussions about some foggy concepts and speculations.

First, there will be a world gone mad, absolutely, in which life will become man against man. Then, when those numbers are dwindling to mere single digit percentages of the original population, it will become man against elements nearly incomprehensible.

If you don't mind the inevitability of dying, the unfolding will be fascinating beyond imagination.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

a pastors perspective....dont be put off by the start of video and his delivery of this message.

[youtube]TJi9cah-VvU[/youtube]


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

elkhound said:


> one thing i think most dont realize...right now its about as good as it has ever been for most...not all...just as a whole.....the last good bit anyhow.
> 
> toss out tribulation thoughts and look at the world history......there has been some real rough times that had nothing to do with end times.how would most in u.s. cope with conditions like during ww2.we are all soft and most cant make hard decisions.
> did anyone watch war time farm....have you read accounts of the things went on then.i got direct knowledge of what people done from my uncles while they were in ww2.this and things like it should make you shake in your shoes and prep for no other reason.
> ...


:donut:

I agree!!!

We have a God-given responsibility to look after the needs of our families and friends, and to help others in need. 

The Bible says a righteous man lays up in store for his children and his childrenâs children ... that means we should prepare for all kinds of eventualities, and make sure that those who depend on us do not suffer as a result of our carelessness or neglect. 

Whether itâs a road trip, lifeâs journey in general, or these particularly unsettling times we face ... the principle is intact.

Brace yourselves. 

All I am saying is I am not going to put my FAITH in my preparations.

I personally believe I will never achieve any form of independence unless I surrender my Self to Dependency. 

Does that make sense? 

You don't have to agree, but am I making sense of my conviction?

I am a Faithful Prepper.

:donut:


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

i think this has been a great and civil discussion without anyone getting panties/boxers in a wad.i hope this continues as the discussion continues so angie wont come and bonk us on our heads.....lol


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

By the way, my response post to Hoggie, my friend, was 100% His words ... Not mine.


I used His words to answer her initial concern/question.


:donut:


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

I just read through this entire thread, and I have thankful tears in my eyes.


This collective participation is so profound ... 


I think I have said enough ... Wading in, or weighing in, has served it's purpose ... I hope I articulated myself fairly well, and hope I didn't come across as swinging my arms.


It is time to hide behind my mask of sweet/warm cluelessness and good cheer ... The comfort of glazed donuts ... I rarely blow my cover anymore.


But it is nice to be able to do so ever once in a while.


(((( love to all )))


:donut:


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## Pam6 (Apr 9, 2009)

If I had three people (me and two sets of neighbors) on my road that refused the mark of the beast then I think that we would set up some kind of barter and trade. I easily have 7 years worth of seeds for several families. I have a few Amish just down the road, within walking distance, and I believe that they would barter/trade with me and refuse the mark. 
I would be more concerned about who ever is in charge of making people take the mark rounding people up and taking them away if they refuse the mark. 

I also believe that my diet would have a lot less choices than I have now but I would probably be eating healthier overall.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Good points, Pam.

The "mark" is one of many reasons to develop relationships and skills.
It is every reason to prepare your field.

Preps are nothing to put faith in. 
I've seen enough personal fire to assure me of that.
But ...... we are to be diligent little dickenses, running around on this earth making the best uses of time and resources that we've been given. That was how it was originally meant to be, perhaps in a more peaceful and measured tone, and how it is now meant to be, though we find ourselves compromised and in a frightening sort of minority.

Man was never intended to rely on institutions created by men. He was meant to rely on an ever-expanding knowledge of how to live on this otherwise beautiful rock and opportunity that we have been given, by HIS perfect design.

I'm rather looking forward to seeing what it looks like with the dross skimmed off. 

:shrug:


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Forerunner said:


> I watched a movie last night........disney edition, _Iron Will_.
> 
> Watch it, if you can.
> 
> ...


 
To die is to gain.


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## sustainabilly (Jun 20, 2012)

There will always be survivors. A black market; the common people, the salt of the earth; an underground; a resistance. In all of history it has been so. The new way has risen from, and with this group, time and time again. They have been the persecuted, the downtrodden, and the outcast. And that, generally served to make them strong. Strong in resolve, faith, morality, and conviction. 

We do what we do to survive. Some will always see that community, fairness, and the golden rule are virtues required for a productive society. They will also know (instinctively), that judgement can be swift and terrible. This too, has always been so. 

If providence chooses to put you in the right place and time to make a difference in a post apocalyptic setting, IMO it will only be after you have been tempered and tested. If you chose to be unmarked and are still living after all that, I think you'd be ready for the next round. 

Notice that no particular religious leaning has been mentioned here. All religions are simply outgrowths of people coming together to live in harmony with each other. And in a scenario like the end times, people won't have time for deep, academic, theological concepts. They'll be sticking to the basics. The very building blocks that are found under _all_ religious beliefs.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

I think the worst mistake _anyone _could make would be to claim to absolutely know exactly how (or when) it is all going down.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

_"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, OR the name of the beast, or the number of his name."_

Then it continues...KJV..."Here is wisdom. Let Him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." I ain't a Biblical scholar, but this next verse sorta takes care of the one before..leastwasy you know what to look for!


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Forerunner said:


> I watched a movie last night........disney edition, _Iron Will_.
> 
> There won't be much symbolism in the tribulation days. There won't be much subliminity that can't quite be grasped. There won't be many arm chair discussions about some foggy concepts and speculations.
> 
> ...


  First I want to give kuddos to glaze. That was the most comprehensible explanation in its entirety I've ever heard. God gave you a gift of understanding, and you used it wisely in explaning it at the appropriate time.

 I've watched "Iron Will". One awseome movie for sure.
 Forerunner: The bolded parts. The world will be gone mad because the Holy Spirit has left the building, so to speak.
 I don't fully understand the tribulation anymore than I understand all the parts of the rapture.
 But if and or when what belongs to Christ meets Christ in the air, there will no longer be the need of the Holy Spirits protection. Hence,, a world gone mad.
 The Holy Spirit is what is keeping evil at bay. Obviously, satan is getting permission, and allowed to have his way, more and more.
 We are being tested as we speak. Some will get stronger, others will fall away.


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## jd4020 (Feb 24, 2005)

This is an interesting conversation and I would like to add my thoughts. I see what you are saying about building relationships and having a network of people with which to trade and barter with to avoid taking the mark, what ever it may be. 
I do enjoy reading & studying Gods' Word, & I'm the first one to admit, I'm no Bible scholar. I do believe that Jesus is coming again. 
Rev. 3:10 says, "Because thou did keep the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of trial, that is going to come upon the whole, to try them that dwell upon the earth." 
I believe this to mean that since I have already accepted what Jesus did for me, did for us all, I have already received Gods mark upon me. Since I now have the Holy Spirit indwelling in me, I am a part of what is holding evil back. Part of the church, Jesus' bride, which is holding evil back. When Jesus comes to take His Bride, I believe this to be what is called the rapture, then that Holy Spirit, which indwells in each one of us who has received, it will no longer be here on earth to hold back that evil. The church is not mentioned in chapters 4 through 18. In chapter 19 it says the church will return with Christ to rule on earth.
I have no idea when Jesus will return. I do believe the birth pains are getting closer together. 
I have no idea what the mark of the beast (which is satan) will look like. It could be things which have been mentioned, on the hand or on the forehead, physical or 
metaphorically, but I do agree those who are here will have to agree to take it. I think this "having to agree to take the mark" is more of God weeding out the chaff from the grain. Even though the church has been taken up, there is still opportunity for those here in the seven years of trial and tribulation, to still receive Salvation. God still gives people a chance for repentance, forgiveness & eternity.
So, yes, I believe in being prepared for what I think my circumstances will be and who my support network might be, but, ultimately, it is my dependance upon God, my faith in accepting all that He says, whether I understand it perfectly or not, my willingness to be His servant and to share His love through the Holy Spirit in me is what will help grow me into the vine the produces good fruit. I already have Jesus' peace.
God bless,
jd


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

...

Thank you, Marshloft.


...


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## justincase (Jul 16, 2011)

the beast is not one entity but many ,also know that brother against brother, father agains son etc, thos who you think are family and or friends will turn you in for a promise of a crust of bread beware, not being marked is being marked of God and all others will despise you and thus you eill be the enemy. God Bless all who are redeemed


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

justincase said:


> the beast is not one entity but many ,also know that brother against brother, father agains son etc,* thos who you think are family and or friends will turn you in for a promise of a crust of bread beware, *not being marked is being marked of God and all others will despise you and thus you eill be the enemy. God Bless all who are redeemed


 Not much different than what it was in Christs time tho.
Do you think that when Christ baptised a jew, that the family wasn't looking on across the river? The person being baptised was making a bold statement, and new he/she could never go home again.
But they now have a new family in Christ.
I think you just helped me answer one of my own questions.
Thanks "justincase"


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

plowhand said:


> _"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, OR the name of the beast, or the number of his name."_
> 
> Then it continues...KJV...
> 
> ...


:donut:

I am glad you carried this further ... I was wondering if someone would.

Yes, six is the number of man. 

And, three is a number connoting complete/ultimate finality. 

Thus, 666, or three sixes, connotes utter carnality ... that which is of MAN, and not of God. 

The numbers in, and of, themselves are NOT evil.

The numerical meaning is what is significant, not the numbers themselves.

Re-read the whole passage again ... and break it down:

1) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark

2) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the name of the beast

3) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the number of his name.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to be known for having the number of his name ... be known for utter carnality.

I want to be known for following Him ... not man, not man-made doctrines/fables/traditions ... Him.

I want to strive to surpass this base/carnal/human-natured/low existence, and focus on the spiritual.

:donut:


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## Bob Huntress (Dec 17, 2012)

While the topic of the Mark of the Beast stirs emotional debate, as I read the original post his specific question refers to what preparations go into being ready for this foretold event. Hoggie the Bible doesn't teach us to live careless of what could happen tomorrow. Do you recal the account that Christ gave of a man that built his house upon rock as opposed to the man who built his house upon sand. I hope that you don't confuse what I am saying to mean that you should not be prepared for power outages, food supply disruptions, natural disasters etc. There is nothing in scripture to support careless living, yet consider the account in 1Kings 17, when Elijah informs Ahab that God has judged the situation in Israel and there is a drought with famine headed at them. The actions and outcomes of Elijah are not the result of food storage for such an event. His survival is the result of God's providence, alone. The preparation that brought Elijah through this drought/famine was a solid relationship with God, and nothing else. When the point arises that the world refuses to buy and sell with us, we to will need divine protection. You may own the land that feeds you, yet, if the government does not accept tax money from you, you will not own the land for long. Our food stock piles protect us if a disaster disrupts the national food supply, yet that will not protect us against that level of evil. If you stock pile weapons, for instance, you should be able to kill any preditors that seek your livestock, or even you. You would be able hold back some who might threaten your security, yet, you must know there are limits. Bear in mind that two former SEALS with chain fed machine guns were not able to repell a large enough mob mustered to overtake our embassy in Libya. I fully support being prepared. You have to know what the limits are, however. Somethings aren't about a fight with flesh and blood, as Paul wrote. There are many things I would love to say about the Mark of the Beast. As a Seventh Day Adventist, my church has books upon books on the topic that have been drilled into me since childhood, but, I think I should limit my reply to what you appear to be asking specifically.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Forerunner said:


> Good points, Pam.
> 
> The "mark" is one of many reasons to develop relationships and skills.
> It is every reason to prepare your field.
> ...


I do not understand it, I cannot get my brain to wrap around it....
But I am so thankful for His Mercy, and His Patience.

Though *I* am ready for Him to come back and collect me....
So many of my friends, family, and my kids friends.....are not.
The thought of them being eternally separated from Christ, makes my soul ache.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

In response to Glazed' last.....

......or manmade systems created to supplant the law and provision of the Father......

Do a little research on Nimrod...."great provider _before_ the Lord".....

Look into "corban" as referenced by Christ, Himself. He said it "makes the law to none effect".

Then look into not casting your lot in with those who say, "let's all have one purse".

Then look into the mimicking nature of Satan, who wants to be like God, but in his efforts to create a following who looks to his provisions, he ends up squeezing the life OUT of them via ultimate control, rather than breathing life INto them via the perfect law of liberty.

Sounds like a one world tracking and provision system to me.

Social Security, here in the "states". It is similarly known in the other *civil*ized countries.

It's Satan's ultimate, world-wide slap in the face of God.
Of course it will look benign on the surface......to most.

I rest my case.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

...

I sense swinging in this one, Tim.



You know I know who Nimrod is ... You know I know .

I hear you, and understand what you say, and understand where you are coming from, and understand where you are going with it.

My biggest challenge with you is the fact that you have removed yourself from the world ... When He implicitly said do not.

I love chewing on gristles.

...

Anyway, my alarm is set to go off at 730 and I am still in bed typing away in the dark with one finger on my fancy phone with sleep in my eyes ... I am going to try to drift back to sleep ... But will probably find myself crawling out of bed because my mind won't shut back down. 

...


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## TomYaz (Oct 5, 2010)

Mark of the Beast = Internet


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

glazed said:


> Hoggie, my friend, do not worry, saying, âWhat shall we eat?â or âWhat shall we drink?â or âWhat shall we wear?â or 'How shall we trade?"
> For this is what "the others" seek, and think.
> Your heavenly Father knows that you will need all these things.
> So, first, seek Him and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
> ...


But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

...

((( made me smile )))

...


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Then truly we do have a barrier to understanding.

We are to be in the world, but not of it.

We are also to "come out of her, My people".

What is your definition of _world_ ?

ETA


*chuckle*

I wanted to rest my case, honest to Father...... but you have opened a can of worms that I didn't know your were carrying around, so now this is going to be another one of those blasted educational threads, the addressing of which cuts so deeply into an otherwise bland and restful winter day. 

Glazed...... what, specifically, have I withdrawn from, that you believe I should have continued to engage on the world's terms ?


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Forerunner said:


> In response to Glazed' last.....
> 
> ......or manmade systems created to supplant the law and provision of the Father......
> 
> Do a little research on Nimrod...."great provider _before_ the Lord".....


Interesting that you should bring up Nimrod. It has long been my belief that the story of the Garden of Eden is allegorical. Think about it, we lived in a "garden" that provided all our needs. We reaped without sowing, harvested without tending flocks. Where did hunter gatherers live? Didn't they live in a giant garden that provided everything they needed to not only survive, but thrive? God provided for us. He was happy providing for us, but then this great evil arose and caused our eviction from this garden. What was this great evil? 

I believe it was agriculture. We, in our arrogance thought that we could do what God was doing for us and do it better. God was offended, we refused his freely given gifts, and look where it has brought us? Kings and dictators do not arise where everyone must sally forth and gather their own food, they only exist where slaves or minions provide for them. In thinking that we would provide for ourselves, we started the process, now near it's conclusion, where the vast majority of people can be totally controlled by those who control the food supply.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

mnn2501 said:


> But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.


True. God never tells us not to prepare, quite the opposite. However, there are some things that you can not prepare for. There are some cases that only God can protect us.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

tinknal said:


> Interesting that you should bring up Nimrod. It has long been my belief that the story of the Garden of Eden is allegorical. Think about it, we lived in a "garden" that provided all our needs. We reaped without sowing, harvested without tending flocks. Where did hunter gatherers live? Didn't they live in a giant garden that provided everything they needed to not only survive, but thrive? God provided for us. He was happy providing for us, but then this great evil arose and caused our eviction from this garden. What was this great evil?
> 
> I believe it was agriculture. We, in our arrogance thought that we could do what God was doing for us and do it better. God was offended, we refused his freely given gifts, and look where it has brought us? Kings and dictators do not arise where everyone must sally forth and gather their own food, they only exist where slaves or minions provide for them. In thinking that we would provide for ourselves, we started the process, now near it's conclusion, where the vast majority of people can be totally controlled by those who control the food supply.


agriculture and civil govt..........the original tower of Babylon was going to be a centralized money and markets and ruler...a new world order if you will....a platform for satan to step into and rule from....same thing is being pushed on everyone right now.

i seen a recent history channel show where archeologist went to wild wheat fields and were able to gather for a family of four in 2 weeks time a years worth of food.imagine that.there is research also where they looked at the last nomadic tribes back in the 1930's...i think....and they had no disease that we as a whole suffer from.it was there diet they concluded.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Tinknal, I see clearly your allegory, and can get on board, to some degree.

I'm curious, at just what level of agriculture do you believe man erred ?

Was it upon first cutting open the earth with a tool ?


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

.....

Can of worms? 



.....


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

tinknal said:


> Interesting that you should bring up Nimrod. It has long been my belief that the story of the Garden of Eden is allegorical. Think about it, we lived in a "garden" that provided all our needs. We reaped without sowing, harvested without tending flocks. Where did hunter gatherers live? Didn't they live in a giant garden that provided everything they needed to not only survive, but thrive? God provided for us. He was happy providing for us, but then this great evil arose and caused our eviction from this garden. *What was this great evil? *


Believing that we (humans) could be LIKE God (Exodus 20)
Believing we do not need Him, that we, can do it ourselves, and do it better.
Believing that we are as smart or smarter than God.
Idolatry, at it's finest.



> I believe it was agriculture. *We, in our arrogance thought that we could do what God was doing for us and do it better. *Godwas offended, we refused his freely given gifts, and look where it has brought us? Kings and dictators do not arise where everyone must sally forth and gather their own food, they only exist where slaves or minions provide for them. * In thinking that we would provide for ourselves, we started the process, now near it's conclusion, where the vast majority of people can be totally controlled by those who control the food supply*.


Amen.
GMO-Chemicals-Perservatives-Artificial Sweeteners, Additives.

He provided the Hebrews Mana, every day, with a double portion on Friday, so they could keep the Sabbath.
The Hebrews had to go out and collect it.
Showing them YES HE is Able to provide, they just had to trust Him and move in obedience.

Go to Joseph.
7 years of fat, 7 years of lean.
God moved Joseph to store up, to feed the people..
God again, provided.
Through this.....Joseph was reunited with his family.

So much to learn, so much good in Trusting the Lord.

Putting food by is not a sin.
Relying on that ability to do so, and Relying on those stores to get us through?
That is when "Idolatry" sets in, and we no longer trust God, but we trust Man (ourselves) and what man can do.
That's what sets us up against The All Mighty.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Big, juicy, squirmy worms.





You have strongly insinuated that a man is to bow to civil government, on their terms, completely contrary to the commandments of God and thousands of pages of Biblical wisdom.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how you come up with that..... and/or hoping that I have misunderstood you in monumental fashion.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Putting food by is not a sin.
> Relying on that ability to do so, and Relying on those stores to get us through?
> That is when "Idolatry" sets in, and we no longer trust God, but we trust Man (ourselves) and what man can do.
> That's what sets us up against The All Mighty.


Valuing your relationship with God is your greatest prep., after all, in truth, it is the only thing you own.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

I would like to believe/think you completely misunderstood me ... But I am feeling so confused/hurt right now, I really don't know what to think ... Maybe I inadvertently said something completely wrong? Like worded it wrong? Maybe my words on the screen were perceived as snarky , when that is far far from my attitude and spirit's intent? I really don't know.

I do know Jesus lived within a corrupt system, as well, and He was registered in the census and He paid his taxes and He upheld the "civil laws" as long as they weren't in direct conflict with God's Laws i.e. HIS LAWS (since He is/was the God of the Old Testament, the Creator, and He changes not.)

Right now, though, I am more concerned with the heavy tension I feel between us ... And am wondering the source ... And I do not like it at all.

It has made me sad.

:donut:


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## Teri (Jan 13, 2003)

Glazed, I find you to be a kind and gentle presence here.
Thank you.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

glazed said:


> :donut:
> 
> Take a look at Revelation 20:4 .... if you truly care about this subject ... and think deeply about what you will read.
> 
> :donut:



Before reading Rev 20:4, read Rev 1:3 to get the context/timing of what is written afterwards:

"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: *for the time is at hand"*.

The way most people read Revelation today, it would have to have no meaning whatsoever to the people in the 7 Churches in Asia Minor...the people it was actually written to!


Tim


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

While this conversation is WAY over my head, I just want y'all to keep it up! I've dusted off my dictionary and used it TWICE just reading forerunner's posts! I love learning new words (even if I've dammed my family because I birthed in a hospital and both my girls now carry the mark)


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## Becka03 (Mar 29, 2009)

PrettyPaisley said:


> While this conversation is WAY over my head, I just want y'all to keep it up! I've dusted off my dictionary and used it TWICE just reading forerunner's posts! I love learning new words (even if I've dammed my family because I birthed in a hospital and both my girls now carry the mark)


You make me laugh- not at you- but with you- I do the same thing- google and grab the dictionary- and LEARN LEARN LEARN by being here- it is awesome isn't it?!
:clap:
I birthed in the hospital too- LOL- 
but I am in here- in SEP and a Christian- and I am convinced it makes a difference even if it takes a dictionary, bible and another browser window open to try to keep up with it all !


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

"No trading" if you don't have the mark of the beast? Actually the verse in Rev. 13:17 says "no man might BUY OR SELL save he that had the mark..." It doesn't actually say "trade". Remember the book of Revelation is ripe with symbolism and the bible will always interpret it's own symbols.

I spent over 15 years studying the prophecies of both Daniel and 
Revelation. I wanted to make sure my studies were not tainted by any doctrines from any Christian denomination so I started from scratch. Studying written historical records and comparing them to the prophecies (and the symbols in prophecy interpreted by the bible itself).

I'm not going to get into what the "mark of the beast" is. Would take several hours to pinpoint the difference between the "mark" of the beast and the "seal" of God (it's the same word in the original languages had been interpreted in the KJV as those 2 words).

Anyway the symbols for "Buying and selling" refers to something completely different than a literal "trade". Think about it. If someone refuses to follow God's law, would they also actually follow man's law if they thought they could make a heafty profit selling a loaf of bread to someone who didn't have the mark of the beast? It seems highly unlikely that the "buying and selling" mentioned here actually refers to buying and selling of material goods.

A literal interpretation of Rev. 13:17 just doesn't make sense. You have to find where else in the bible the symbols are interpreted.

Consider Isaiah 55 verses 1-7 and you will see that the "buying and selling" actually refers to hearing and teaching the word of God. The "wine" and "milk" are symbols of true bible teachings. Buying would refer to hearing God's word. Selling would refer to teaching these truths to others.

So the prophecy in Rev. 13:17 would refer to being able to hear and teach truths from the bible because those truths would be in direct conflict with the government establishment. It's a prophecy that our freedom of speech will be taken away and anyone who attempts to teach truths from the bible that are not in accord with government regulations are in danger of fines, imprisonment, even death.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

Just throwing a toe in the water as short on time, the beast, of which there are several in Rev. One being the UN, which started as the League of Nations. 
Also, remember when Jesus was tempted, Satan offered all of the governments and Jesus did not dispute the ownership. As brought out already, modern gov. traces back, waaay back. Ownership has not changed. As the Tower of Babel went against God's purposes, so does the UN. 
Time makes this abrubt, not meaness.


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

The mark of the beast is having a computer. I'm sorry we already all have it.:smack


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Forerunner said:


> Tinknal, I see clearly your allegory, and can get on board, to some degree.
> 
> I'm curious, at just what level of agriculture do you believe man erred ?
> 
> Was it upon first cutting open the earth with a tool ?


I'm not sure where the turning point was, maybe when we first came to depend upon it? When we gave up our nomadic ways? Not sure.

I can imagine how it started though. Every year in the proper season a tribe would gather in a certain spot to gather wild grain. Then maybe someone spilled a basket of grain in the mud and noticed the next year a particularly good crop in that area the next year, or maybe it was the threshing area where they noticed good growth. Someone has the idea to scatter a few handfuls of grain and see what happens the next year. Maybe they notice that they get a better crop in areas where the ground was chewed up so they decide to work the ground a little and scatter some seed. They keep their nomadic ways but become tied to this spot every harvest season. Maybe they harvest more than they can carry so they establish a settlement, or maybe a neighboring tribe discovers the fields so they need to stay and defend them. 

For livestock domestication look at the Lapps and their reindeer. Semi wild herds that the people travel with. The animals keep their old migration patterns but have become habituated to humans. At some time people decide to control the herds (cattle, goats, sheep?). They want to keep the herds out of neighboring territory or direct them to "greener pastures". While the herds were truly "wild" people were not as concerned about predators or other tribes taking animals. They "take possession" of the herds when they see themselves as "owners" or begin to defend them.

I would imagine that the process took many years or even many generations.


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## Teri (Jan 13, 2003)

TomYaz said:


> Mark of the Beast = Internet


 
I've long thought technology would be our downfall, especially computers and the internet.


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

I don't know if we're in the last days; i'm sure many previous generations who suffered tyranny thought they were. However, our generation has many unique occurences: the internet has created another tower of babel with one language, we are getting closer every day to reaching all the people groups of the world with the Word of God, God's chosen people, the Israelites, have been returned to it's homeland and the world has turned against them, it seems many prophecies are occuring in our lifetimes. Yet, only God knows when the final days will come. On the other hand, if this isn't the last days, then I feel they will be ugly and sad days for America. I continue to prepare to feed my family as my grandmothers did and at the same time keep looking east and awaiting Christs return.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Forerunner said:


> The beast is the worldwide monetary/commerce/citizenship conglomerate...Babylon.
> Each participating member carries their own "nation's" version of the mark.
> 
> *People do worship, a.k.a. love the system represented*, i.e. they prefer it, and it's comforts and conveniences....and it's rules....the alternative being the vast wilderness of personal responsibility and liberty that is the Kingdom of God.
> ...


Amen!

I percieve it in a somewhat similar way.

I think the inevitable financial collapse will be a result of the beast and the beasts mark. However, I suspect that the mark is much older and been around much longer than most would suspect.

The beast is in every man, the battle is internal. It is up to each man to choose the right path. We all face this test several times in life. The "system/beast" relies on greed and gluttony.

The mark of the beast is any currency. When people placed a value on worthless trinkets to exchange for goods, trade immediately became dishonest. Man was more at peace with his neigbhor when trade was based on an exchange of real products and real services. (barter)

In a lifestyle of strictly barter man is closer to his maker because he is closer to the root of the essence of life and spirit. Trading a bushel of hard earned grain takes on a greater signifigance when you are recieving a much needed laying hen.

We are too far from a holy life when we can use plastic cards to buy luxuries. These luxuries are made on the backs of impoverished slaves. Modern man aquires more and more useless trinkets so easily without ever recognizing the blood, sweat and tears that go into it. Man is too far removed from his source.

The beast gained significant strength over us with the dollar. According to Jewish tradition in the old testament as well as some parts of the new it is forbidden to write the word God. It is said to be a form of taking the name in vain and that the use of the name is a means of swearing an oath. So on our money "In god we trust" we are taking an oath to the dollar and it's use.

Ever see a penny on the ground, lost so casually? Ever realize how many people step over and on the name of god or how it can be taken so lightly that gods name is often on the ground below us? Car ashtrays full of rusty, sticky names of god...

IMHO


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

The common theme I see in these discussions is a lot of disjointed pieces that have a place.....and a lot of traditional cliche and little side shoots that aren't quite as relevant as we may have been lead to believe.

As for "da..mn..ation for enumerating your children......no.

Revelations, chapter 14 comes across pretty harshly.

As I said, I see no eternal hell, but many opportunities for testing and attitude adjustments, some lasting longer than others.

The best that I have been able to do in piecing together that passage is that those who have the mark (I was numbered, in my youth, and mistakenly used the number for years) will have the opportunity to see for themselves where their allegiances truly lie.
"tormented, for ever and ever.... fire and brimstone, in the presence of Jesus and His angels", has been represented to me to be better translated, "tested, as with a touchstone, for an age". An age is a specified period of time, not an eternity.

It looks to be a purposefully misleading and fear-inspiring passage, to me, and others.

It doesn't take much digging to see that the "Bible" has some books missing, and some odd translations from older translations. I have long wondered about some of the pieces that just don't seem to fit, and some of the harshness that does not smack of the character of the Father.

I'll likely take a little flak for this, but, be that as it may.

Jesus, himself, was quoted as saying, "the letter of the law killeth, but the spirit giveth life." I don't take the Bible, a.k.a. _the letter of the law_, as the absolute inerrant word of God. It is clear to me that the book has been manipulated somewhat, by men. Any is too much, and any makes it less than absolute.
I take the written representations therein to be _evidence_ of the word of God, from which the Spirit of the word can be discerned. Indeed, if the Spirit doesn't open the book to you, much of it will remain confusing.

As for the concerns of the OP....how to prepare for the tribulation ?
Learn to discern the voice of the Spirit in all that you do.
That prick of conscience.... that perfectly timed intuition.
That voice that says "no", and you know it is right.
That voice that says "walk this path", and though it looks to be the most difficult at the moment, you know that it is the right one.

No man and no book can learn those things for you.

Once you know Father's voice, fear will depart, and you will walk in peace and confidence.

The rest is details.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

I am late to this discussion, but wanted to comment if possible.

I respectfully don't agree that an SSN is the mark. I believe whatever the mark will be, it will be something that each person will have to intentionally choose for themselves. Since our children are given SSN's at birth in hospitals now, without their knowledge or consent, I don't believe it is the mark. I definitely don't like it and feel it is part of government invasion in our lives, and put up a big stink about not getting one for my daughter, but was overruled by my husband. I have also done some research and found that not all countries even have any kind of "SSN" numbering of their citizens. I believe the mark discussed in the Bible will be given world-wide. I think it is important for us in the more industrialized nations to watch what happens in the 3rd world countries also. When they start taking a mark, then I will get really concerned.

I have an SSN, and I have not felt a conviction by the Holy Spirit that it is a problem.

Interestingly enough, I have felt a strong conviction recently to learn a lot about foraging wild foods. Today I received an excellent book that I ordered about that. I was planning to post a review here after using it a bit to make sure it was worthy of my positive review.

On a lighter note, Glazed, you are on my bad list. Here I am studying about a diet of roots, berries, and leaves and your avatar is making my mouth water every time I see it. And I don't even like glazed doughnuts all that much. I think it is just the thought that perhaps a time will come when I can't get any more.

It would be wonderful to be perfectly in the center of God's will. But I am not. I fail often, sometimes in big ways, others in small ones. But even though Jesus knew this, He died for me, a sinner incapable of being holy on my own. I trust that He will show me what to do when He wants. For now, I am keeping my nose to the grindstone and doing the best I can. I have no fear.

I am doing my very best to take advantage of the opportunities I am being given. My daughter and I have been blessed to be able to barter for our martial arts lessons. We have an incredible instructor, who is a strong man of God and it doesn't cost us at all to take the training. My daughter has been able to participate in 4-H shooting sports (pistol, rifle, shotgun, archery) for 7 years. It costs $1.00 per year - that's right, a single buck. The club provides all the equipment, ammo, and excellent instructors. I have had ample opportunity to learn primitive weapons like atlatl. I don't yet fully understand why we are being given these surprising opportunities. I don't have any clear idea of how we might we called to use them. But I am trying my best to make the most of them so that we will be found ready when the time comes.

I'm ready to be Raptured tomorrow, to stay and defend the defenseless Brethern, to forage food for my family and others, or to take up residence in the New Jerusalem. My main prayer is for the strength and health to do that to which I am called.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

Forerunner said:


> The common theme I see in these discussions is a lot of disjointed pieces that have a place.....and a lot of traditional cliche and little side shoots that aren't quite as relevant as we may have been lead to believe.
> 
> As for "da..mn..ation for enumerating your children......no.
> 
> ...



This is taking things a little off topic and I apologize profusely, but just wanted to say thanks to Forerunner. I've been struggling with a lot of this sort of stuff. To my eye, parts of the bible contradict each other or just don't make any sense. When I've asked questions of churches, the answers don't make sense to me either. Finally, thanks to a few comments of yours in this thread, I think I've gotten a start on HOW to find some of this out for myself.

Thank you.


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

WOW LOL - this is going to take me forever to catch up with replying to 

Thank you everyone for the input and thoughts.

I have to say that some of it I am still reading and re-reading to try to come to grips with - so please be patient with me 

Tinknal - on agriculture - I understood agriculture to be the punishment to Adam and Eve for their sin. God tells Adam when he banishes him "It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground"? By the time the next generation came along already we are told "Abel kept flocks and Cain worked the soil"?

Bob Huntress - there are some references there that I don't know and will have to look up, but that makes sense 

glazed and forerunner - your biblical knowledge is far greater than mine and it will take me some time to go through all you have written, but many thanks for it all. I have a question though - what is the relevance of nimrod ? You speak of him forerunner as the provider before God as though that is good - but wasn't he responsible for the tower of Babel?

Going back to read some more replies now


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Forerunner said:


> It looks to be a purposefully misleading and fear-inspiring passage, to me, and others.
> 
> It doesn't take much digging to see that the "Bible" has some books missing, and some odd translations from older translations. I have long wondered about some of the pieces that just don't seem to fit, and some of the harshness that does not smack of the character of the Father.
> 
> ...


 
Well said.

Very few people know the signifigance of Constantine or have a glimmer of recognition of the gnostic texts.


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## forfreedom (Dec 3, 2008)

Pam6 said:


> If I had three people (me and two sets of neighbors) on my road that refused the mark of the beast then I think that we would set up some kind of barter and trade. I easily have 7 years worth of seeds for several families. I have a few Amish just down the road, within walking distance, and I believe that they would barter/trade with me and refuse the mark.
> I would be more concerned about who ever is in charge of making people take the mark rounding people up and taking them away if they refuse the mark.
> 
> I also believe that my diet would have a lot less choices than I have now but I would probably be eating healthier overall.


That would be easy.

What about property taxes?


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I rather have to agree with Hoggie on the agriculture issue, to the end that labor-intensive life is more the punishment than the crime, though I admit that I can see a little overlap, on occasion.
However, there is no doubt that massive, slave-driven agriculture has fed kings and raped the earth....both of which are an abomination to Father.

A man does have to wonder what Adam and Eve were thinking, living in a horticultural paradise.

On the other hand, one has to wonder at Father's first commandments...._dress and keep the earth._

Dressing the earth seems to me to be tending, improving, maintaining, shaping.....

I have often felt, while sitting on a bulldozer, shaping...planning.... articulating.....improving... reclaming .....I even dare say, _exercising an artistic bent_.... "This is a taste of what it feels like to have the Creating Hand of Father", I think to myself. I believe He gave us that passion, to dress the earth, in multiple, beneficial ways.

Then there is _keep_.

Keep the earth.

In that, we have failed miserably.

Contrary to many warnings asserted in Scripture we have continually given in to systems (civil government creations of the hands of men.....perhaps idols, and other gods ? ) that demand only our God-given rights and our consent/allegiance/obedience, a.k.a. _bowing down_... in exchange for a dubious benefit package that always deteriorates as the restrictions on the people become tighter and tighter, the tax burden constantly increasing.
Again, Satan's attempt at providing and having his own following, but he always pets the rabbits and mice too hard, (Of Mice and Men....John Steinbeck).

Father would have us all equally responsible only to Him, through faith and charity, thriving each unto his own by the perfect law of liberty, with no binding contracts or foreign allegiances to compromise our freedom to obey the voice of conscience.

Satan would have us sign over our allegiances, swear oaths of fealty, pay ever increasing portions of our blood and sweat and be bound to the most draconian rule until the life is squeezed out of us. 


Hoggie...... Nimrod...... a simple misunderstanding there.
I absolutely do not hold Nimrod in any degree of positive light, whatsoever.

_Provider before the Lord_ might be better translated _Provider INSTEAD of the Lord_.

(reminds me of insurance and social security, among other things)

Nimrod established civil government, ultimately manifesting itself in the tower of babel, a government of protection and provision, crafted arrogantly by the hands of men (a graven image, perhaps....an idol ? )that people would run to for lack of faith in Father. 

Sound familiar ?

It has been the same old song and dance, time and time and time again.

Now for another hard truth.

Jesus didn't come to set us on an eternal emotional high.
He didn't come to turn men into sobbing basket cases at the alter.
He didn't come to start some moral-based cult with pious and lofty ideals that practical application of which are always just out of reach.

He came, as Moses, _to set people free from civil government_.
He came to give every man the hope and the avenue to again seek out and live by the perfect law of liberty, answering only to Father.

He was CONSTANTLY at odds with the civil government of the day, a.k.a. scribes and pharisees.

Look deeply into the meaning of the Greek word, ekklesia. It is the word they translated to "church". In a nutshell, it means an assembly called OUT of corrupt civil government, for the purpose of allowing that corruption to consume itself and fall.

So, what would the _Ekklesia Kurios_ look like ?

The Tower of Babel has been rebuilt.
It is a worldwide monetary and slave system.
Obviously, it has encompassed a very large portion of the land mass and the population of the earth.

That brings us back to the battle, between Father and Satan. 

I contend that Father has given Satan the opportunity to win this earth, by the consent of the inhabitants thereon, when a critical mass of those inhabitants fall away from the perfect law of liberty, and choose, instead, the written and forced institutions of men.

The Social Security number is the mark of allegiance and submission to Satan's most comprehensive work, yet. It is required, one way or another, to eat at the table of Satan's civil, tax-(blood) funded provision. 
Obviously the delusion remains very strong, but as I explained earlier in the thread, eternal dam..nation is not part of the equation.
A lot of pain and suffering, a.k.a. contemplation time, may well be the fate we face as the fires of tribulation, personal or comprehensive, burn away the dross of our respective delusions.

May we each refine well.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

thermopkt said:


> This is taking things a little off topic and I apologize profusely, but just wanted to say thanks to Forerunner. I've been struggling with a lot of this sort of stuff. To my eye, parts of the bible contradict each other or just don't make any sense. When I've asked questions of churches, the answers don't make sense to me either. Finally, thanks to a few comments of yours in this thread, I think I've gotten a start on HOW to find some of this out for myself.
> 
> 
> Thank you.


Thank you for this.

Having someone share that I've had a hand in helping set them free to think and act for themselves, rather than struggling under the voices of confusion and binding legalism....... is about as high an honor as I have experienced.


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## SmokyShadow (May 19, 2007)

I would love to research the Bible more thoroughly, but where does one start? I have seen mention of original manuscripts and such, but is it possible to get copies of those? Books? Instructors? :help:


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## Dr. Mom (Jan 13, 2008)

hoggie said:


> A bit of a strange thought struck me today - while I was researching something on an entirely different subject! LOL
> 
> We are told in Revelation how the mark of the beast will have to be taken by everyone. And that those without the mark will not be allowed to trade.
> 
> ...



I just wanted to get back to your original post, Hoggie, and reply to that, if I may.

Accepting the Mark of the Beast will be a conscious decision made by the unsaved or nonbelievers of Jesus Christ who are on the earth at the time the antichrist receives his power from Satan. It will be a physical mark, made either IN the right hand or IN the forehead, probably by means of a microchip.

I believe in the pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church. If that is what occurs, there will be many people who are left behind that will rededicate their lives to Jesus or become believers after the Rapture. These people will not take the Mark and will have to find a way to live thru the 3 1/2-year Great Tribulation without any kind of monetary system. Some will find a way to survive by going "underground" and connecting with other believers. Bartering of goods and services will be necessary. They would have to be very careful who they made friends with, though. There will be no electricity or internet services, unless they found a source for solar or wind power, so all contacts would be face to face. 

I realize that the tribulation will last for 7 years but the antichrist will not receive his full powers until halfway into it. The first half will be relatively mild. I know there are a lot of believers who are preparing for the 7-year tribulation because that is the way they interpret the scriptures. They believe in either a mid-trib, post-trib, or no rapture. I sincerely hope they're wrong, but I reckon we'll find out one way or the other pretty soon. There are 197 verses in the Bible that describe God's wrath and most of them specifically say that God does not pour out His wrath on His people. That's good enough for me. :spinsmiley:


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## Cajun Arkie (Jun 11, 2012)

Dr. Mom said:


> I just wanted to get back to your original post, Hoggie, and reply to that, if I may.
> 
> Accepting the Mark of the Beast will be a conscious decision made by the unsaved or nonbelievers of Jesus Christ who are on the earth at the time the antichrist receives his power from Satan. It will be a physical mark, made either IN the right hand or IN the forehead, probably by means of a microchip.
> 
> ...


 
Just wanted to say this--even though I do believe you are correct that it will be a conscious decision those folks that accept the mark won't really know what it is they are doing in a spiritual sense. Matthew 24:22 says that except those days are shortened NO FLESH would be saved---why - they are deceived. Please note that at the crucifixion all the disciples forsook Jesus - they didn't understand what had and was happening. In Luke 24:45 after the resurrection Jesus opened their understanding that they could understand the scriptures. It was only then that they understood the plan of salvation. Lots of folks deceived because they do not study the scipture for themselves along with understanding given by the Holy Spirit - John 14.


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## Dr. Mom (Jan 13, 2008)

Cajun Arkie said:


> Just wanted to say this--even though I do believe you are correct that it will be a conscious decision those folks that accept the mark won't really know what it is they are doing in a spiritual sense. Matthew 24:22 says that except those days are shortened NO FLESH would be saved---why - they are deceived. Please note that at the crucifixion all the disciples forsook Jesus - they didn't understand what had and was happening. In Luke 24:45 after the resurrection Jesus opened their understanding that they could understand the scriptures. It was only then that they understood the plan of salvation. Lots of folks deceived because they do not study the scipture for themselves along with understanding given by the Holy Spirit - John 14.



You are correct. The disciples didn't really understand what was happening until Jesus was crucified. Then they became great teachers of the gospel. I believe the same thing is happening today, as in the days of Noah. The only difference from the Great Tribulation and the Great Flood is that people will have one last chance for redemption in the Tribulation. Noah's generation didn't have that option. During the Tribulation, God will raise up great teachers again and many will be saved. These are called the Tribulation Saints.

I know that many people are confused about the scriptures, because of the many interpretations of them and because of all the different religions. I believe that is a good thing because it means that people are reading the Bible and that allows people to have an open discussion about their beliefs. If the Bible was written in clear and simple scriptures that everyone believed everything in it in the same manner, then there would be no need to study it and it would become just another dusty book on the shelf. Does that make sense? God intended for His Word to be studied and discussed openly. But sadly, many people use it to promote THEIR ideas and not HIS instructions. Manifest Destiny versus Divine Providence.

Since this is a survival thread and the OP asked specifically about questions about the buying and selling during the tribulation, I wanted to focus on that and not religion. Since many people do not believe in the Rapture or a pre-tribulation Rapture, they need to be prepared to survive 3 1/2 years on their own if they do not take the Mark of the Beast. I believe there is a Hell and a Heaven. I chose Heaven. It is a lot easier to make the choice now than later. 

I know this isn't a popular idea, but I believe the young children will also be raptured before the tribulation begins, if they haven't reached the age of accountability. Their parents may or may not be raptured at the same time. depending on their faith.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

SmokyShadow said:


> I would love to *research the Bible more thoroughly, but where does one start*? I have seen mention of original manuscripts and such, but is it possible to get copies of those? Books? Instructors? :help:


That is a big glass of water you cannot fill from a shallow well. Be careful what you wish for...


Best of luck on your adventure. :cowboy:


Just a couple suggestions though I am sure others will chime in.

Research the history of Christianity, everything after Jesus.

Nag Hamadi 

Council of Nicea, Counsel of Constantinople, Council of Ephesus, Council of Chalcedon, Council of Trent.

Constantine in general.



In my experience finding the answers only leads to more questions.


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## sdnapier (Aug 13, 2010)

farmerDale said:


> I think the believers will be gone. And if we are not taken up by then, we know there would be no more than seven years left, so that is how log you need to be prepped for.
> 
> I believe the mark will be a tiny implant with all personal information on it, like a chip in a credit card. You take it, you can do commerce, you do not, you are left out. To die. Never in the worlds history has there ever been a time where this has been less silly to look at and say it could happen. We have the technology, with the collapse of the world economy potentially imminent, the timing could not be better for some yahoo like Obama, that the world fawns over, to say, "look at me! I have the answers!"
> 
> ...


Just a quick question. In the King James bible, where do you actually find the word rapture. Have looked and can't find it.


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## campfiregirl (Mar 1, 2011)

sdnapier said:


> Just a quick question. In the King James bible, where do you actually find the word rapture. Have looked and can't find it.


In KJ, you find "caught up". Rapture is derived from Latin then middle French.


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## Ode (Sep 20, 2006)

Cajun Arkie said:


> Just wanted to say this--even though I do believe you are correct that it will be a conscious decision those folks that accept the mark won't really know what it is they are doing in a spiritual sense. Matthew 24:22 says that except those days are shortened NO FLESH would be saved---why - they are deceived. Please note that at the crucifixion all the disciples forsook Jesus - they didn't understand what had and was happening. In Luke 24:45 after the resurrection Jesus opened their understanding that they could understand the scriptures. It was only then that they understood the plan of salvation. Lots of folks deceived because they do not study the scipture for themselves along with understanding given by the Holy Spirit - John 14.


I find it difficult to believe that an all-powerful god would condemn his imperfect creations to an eternity apart from him, as the consequence for a choice made without full understanding of the implications of that choice. If children are not liable for sin because they are incapable of understanding the choices they make, then why are adults/those over the age of reason responsible for actions they are not fully understanding?

It is my reasoned belief as a logical person, that god would want as many of his children with him as possible, and give them every chance possible until they either die or choose the other side with full and complete understanding that this would be final with no chance to change their minds once the choice is made. Evil must be a deliberate choice. If tricked into it, the choice would not be valid.

Think of it like this...a family with children is debating what to do during the end times. The parents decide to take this mark because it makes things easier for them. They know they will be in hell when they die as a consequence, but they think they will be better off now and so will their children. At heart, the parents are cowards, and the thought of suffering and torture and deprivation are more than they can bear. After taking the mark, evil now has a complete hold on them. And they decide to take the children with them. The children are drugged, and this mark is placed on them while they sleep. When they wake, would the children be doomed to eternity in hell? After all, they were tricked into the mark.

This just makes me believe that there can absolutely be no trickery involved as to the nature of the choice you are making, none whatsoever. You are choosing between good versus evil. Trickery involving other aspects of the choice, such as riches or power or a position of reward in hell for the choice are trivial compared to the most important aspect of good vs. evil. If you aren't aware of that, then you aren't really making a choice.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

God is perfect and just. I wouldn't worry too much about it, if I were you. It is far more important to have a relationship with God, than to worry about angels and heads of pens and such. It is far too easy to trust in your own understanding and forget to learn how to prostate one's self.


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## Dr. Mom (Jan 13, 2008)

Ode, remember that God Has Everything Under Control. He will give everyone who will listen to His Word one last chance to repent and turn to Him for salvation. 

I believe the Rapture of the Church will occur before the 7-yr Tribulation begins. The antichrist doesn't receive his power from Satan until 3 1/2 years or halfway into the tribulation. 

God will send 144,000 saints from the 12 tribes of Israel to earth after the Rapture to preach the gospel to the nonbelievers one more time. I also believe that these men will be sent to places like North Korea and other countries where missionaries had not been allowed to enter prior to the Rapture. They are sealed by God and cannot be killed, so obviously there will be miracles that will happen to bring more people to salvation.

Also, the 2 witnesses will be preaching for 3 1/2 years in Jerusalem. Their images will be televised via satellite throughout the whole world. 

So God will give everyone one last chance before he says Enough. There is no trickery. Either people understand what is happening or they won't. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. 

The time to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior is NOW, not later. Once you are saved, then you can spread the Good News to others. If they refuse to listen, don't waste your time on them, let God deal with them.

I believe the children will leave with the Church in the Rapture, with or without their parents. Again, God knows what He is doing and everything is happening according to His plan.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

motdaugrnds said:


> Consider Isaiah 55 verses 1-7 and you will see that the "buying and selling" actually refers to hearing and teaching the word of God. The "wine" and "milk" are symbols of true bible teachings. Buying would refer to hearing God's word. Selling would refer to teaching these truths to others.
> 
> So the prophecy in Rev. 13:17 would refer to being able to hear and teach truths from the bible because those truths would be in direct conflict with the government establishment. It's a prophecy that our freedom of speech will be taken away and anyone who attempts to teach truths from the bible that are not in accord with government regulations are in danger of fines, imprisonment, even death.


I find this a very interesting point of view. Seems to me its already happening as Bible and the words 'Merry Christmas' having been removed from the public school scene and are beginning to be removed from mainstream business. He who controls the schools controls the children. Look at the college aged crowd in this country. So many of them reject God completely and live a life of their own pleasures. Pretty soon, talk of God and his teachings will be actually banned from public places. Then where are we? Seems alot of people won't recognize or even care.


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