# A question for Christians



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

The Bible tells us that people will know we are Christians by our fruit. Here lately there's been a few threads in which Christianity comes up. Some of the posts really concern me. What kind of witness are we if we talk to non-believers in a condescending manner? My Mom use to tell me you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.  But even if we aren't trying to win them to Christ, shouldn't we, as Christians, try to use our words in a more loving manner? How many people may be reading what we post that could be looking for what we have, but have walked away in disgust? I don't mean this to be a lecture, I have gotten caught up in it at times myself. I just think that if we want to be a good witness then we need to temper our words. OK, I know some with flame me, so let the flaming begin. (stepping off my soap box now) :soap:


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

You make some good points

Just keep in mind most of those "non believers" are just trying to get you stirred up, and probably the best thing to do would be to not address them at all about religion, because no matter what you say, they don't care, and will show no respect


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

It's never right to look down your nose at anyone. It is not of God. Pride goeth before a fall.
But people live or die by the words of their mouth, and if they have that arrogant attitude towards others who are weak, poor, of a different social class or race, or whatever, then they are killing themselves by giving place to those thoughts and words. Feel sorry for the arrogant people. What is in their heart is coming out of them in their words. And God is not mocked, What people sow they will reap.
People don't hurt the gospel by their attitude and words. They kill themselves when they act and think that way.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Yeah, I knows. Read my sig line. That's why I pretty much stay away from those threads now.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Telling the truth to people often upsets them. It doesn't matter if you are telling someone why using hydrogen as a fuel is stupid, how it makes no since and is unfair to have different tax rates for different people or telling them what God says about things.

As a little old lady in a former church used to say when someone would admonish her for being blunt with sinners; "They ain't going to get any more lost if I tell them the truth."


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

I agree that we should be more loving. When looking at the Fruit of the Spirit, the first one listed is LOVE. We were never intended to beat people into giving their hearts to Christ. If instead, we live a life reflecting the Fruit of the Spirit, people will be drawn to Him.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> The Bible tells us that people will know we are Christians by our fruit.


I am not a Christian, but I think there's a lot of wisdom in that idea ... and not just for judging whether someone is a Christian, but whether they're a good or bad person generally.

Along the same lines, if you want to know what a person values, look at how they spend their time and their money. That is a more accurate indicator than words, IMO.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

willow_girl said:


> I am not a Christian, but I think there's a lot of wisdom in that idea ... and not just for judging whether someone is a Christian, but whether they're a good or bad person generally.
> 
> Along the same lines, if you want to know what a person values, *look at how they spend their time and their money.* That is a more accurate indicator than words, IMO.


I've read enough of your posts to know that you are pretty knowledgable on the Bible. I'm bad at remembering exactly where the scriptures are, but there are placed in the Bible that refers to what I bolded. One that says that we are to be doers of the word and not just hearers and another that says faith without works is dead. So yes, what we do is as important as what we say.


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## PurpleMartineer (Apr 12, 2008)

Start by proving Jesus is the messiah through the Hebrew bible.


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## acde (Jul 25, 2011)

James 2:14 faith without works is dead.
Matthew 7:16 you will recognize my people by their fruit


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## acde (Jul 25, 2011)

Aren't we blessed that the Bilble has been translated into many languages? what a loving prrovision for all to partisipate in. So, all people have the power within themselves to be saved.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Start by proving Jesus is the messiah through the Hebrew bible.


Why do you want "proof"


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## DQ (Aug 4, 2006)

Because when you are capable of thinking something is true without any kind of proof then you are pretty much capable of believing anything, and that is extremely dangerous. If you asked me to believe you saw a butterfly in the backyard I wouldn't require much proof; It is not uncommon to see butterflies. When you ask me to believe in a god/jesus that is no different than the thousands of gods and god stories that have preceded it, most of which we all have eventually presumed untrue (zues etc..) then we need some proof to show that this is different. 

I am an atheist. I do not make comments or start threads about religion because I want to stir the pot. At least not in a negative way. I want people to take a good hard look at why they believe the things they do because it is clear to me that religions in general do far more harm then good and they are not based on reality.

most people will readily admit that most muslims are muslims because they were raised with those beliefs. ditto for any other religion. Most don't want to see that the reason they think christianity has some merit is because they were raised in a culture where it is predominate. It isn't because christianity makes more sense, has more proof, or is a "kinder gentler" religions. you can find the same beauty, wisdom and horror in nearly every other religion. Muslims aren't muslims because they sat down and studied all religions and figured out that it was the best one. Christians aren't christians for that reason either. 

I think the world will be a better place when people ditch all their religious beliefs and start basing decision on reason. Start basing their moral stances on the predictable out come of their actions and how it will affect others.

people don't kill people because they are too reasonable. People don't kill other people in the name of "no god". people don't adhere to wildly irrational and harmful doctrine because they have objective thoughts about how it affects other people. 

That is why you hear atheists talk about religions being a delusion. because when you step back and look at _all_ religions as a whole, their is little difference between all of them and little difference in how individuals acquire them. They are obviously a cultural, social, and psychological phenomena and they put people in a position of replacing thought with belief. They amputate the part of peoples brains that require proof to believe something. scary.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

DQ said:


> Because when you are capable of thinking something is true without any kind of proof then you are pretty much capable of believing anything, and that is extremely dangerous. If you asked me to believe you saw a butterfly in the backyard I wouldn't require much proof; It is not uncommon to see butterflies. When you ask me to believe in a god/jesus that is no different than the thousands of gods and god stories that have preceded it, most of which we all have eventually presumed untrue (zues etc..) then we need some proof to show that this is different.
> 
> I am an atheist. I do not make comments or start threads about religion because I want to stir the pot. At least not in a negative way. I want people to take a good hard look at why they believe the things they do because it is clear to me that religions in general do far more harm then good and they are not based on reality.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanaton.
That is pretty close to my feelings but said in a much better way than I could.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

DQ said:


> Because when you are capable of thinking something is true without any kind of proof then you are pretty much capable of believing anything, and that is extremely dangerous. If you asked me to believe you saw a butterfly in the backyard I wouldn't require much proof; It is not uncommon to see butterflies. When you ask me to believe in a god/jesus that is no different than the thousands of gods and god stories that have preceded it, most of which we all have eventually presumed untrue (zues etc..) then we need some proof to show that this is different.
> 
> I am an atheist. I do not make comments or start threads about religion because I want to stir the pot. At least not in a negative way. I want people to take a good hard look at why they believe the things they do because it is clear to me that religions in general do far more harm then good and they are not based on reality.
> 
> ...


Atheisim is a religious belief, like all other religions. Some believe there is a higer power, some do not! Everyone is religious in that context. Everyones believes what they want to believe.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> I am not a Christian, but I think there's a lot of wisdom in that idea ... and not just for judging whether someone is a Christian, but whether they're a good or bad person generally.
> 
> *Along the same lines, if you want to know what a person values, look at how they spend their time and their money. That is a more accurate indicator than words, IMO*.


That is what the pastor of my church preached on last Sunday.....
He said look in your check book for 2011, and you will know where your heart is.

I missed the sermon on 'time' which was the week before. But my son was in town for the break, and I was spending time with my family, preparing a pretty scrumptious meal, talking about colleges and future goals and plans, discussing the importance of prayer in making these big decisions, playing some Peggle on PS3 (with the family) and doing all of his laundry before he left the next day to go back to MI.

I'd say, my 'time' that day was well spent!

You are so right that those two things tell a LOT about a person. It does not determine / spell out what their eternal destination is.....but.......gives you a pretty good indicator of the god/God that they follow.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Although I agree that many Christians were raised that way and therefore consider themselves Christian, but there are also many that have researched other religions and there are those who were not raised in a Christian environment who become Christians. I have a very dear friend who was an atheist when I met her. She was raised in an atheist household, yet felt something was missing. She is an intellectual, so it was hard for her to accept anything in faith, like many who are atheist she wanted something tangible. I'm not sure what made her finally decide that there really is something to Christianity, but she did. 

I was raised in what was called a Christian home, but the discrepencies in what I saw in my home life and what I was taught in Church made me back away from the whole premise of God for many years. 

One thing I came to realize was that not everything that is real can be seen. I don't doubt that love is real, yet I have no tangible proof of it's existence. There's a lot of things I don't understand since I'm not the brightest bulb in the lamp, but I do know that once I surrendered my life to Jesus and started trying to model my life after His then my life changed. It's not easier than it was before, but it's easier for me to handle. It gave me hope for a better tomorrow, BTW, hope is another thing that there is no tangible evidence to support it, yet so many of us have a better life because of it. 

I've had and still have a very difficult life, one filled with many tragedies. Before I became a Christian my life was basically empty and I really didn't care if I lived or died. Since becoming a Christian I have hope that this is not all there is, but that there is something better. So, some would say I use my faith as a crutch, but to me, my faith isn't a crutch, it's a life.



DQ said:


> Because when you are capable of thinking something is true without any kind of proof then you are pretty much capable of believing anything, and that is extremely dangerous. If you asked me to believe you saw a butterfly in the backyard I wouldn't require much proof; It is not uncommon to see butterflies. When you ask me to believe in a god/jesus that is no different than the thousands of gods and god stories that have preceded it, most of which we all have eventually presumed untrue (zues etc..) then we need some proof to show that this is different.
> 
> I am an atheist. I do not make comments or start threads about religion because I want to stir the pot. At least not in a negative way. I want people to take a good hard look at why they believe the things they do because it is clear to me that religions in general do far more harm then good and they are not based on reality.
> 
> ...


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

DQ, there is one very important part that you neglect to mention. There are literally tens or hundreds of millions that have been raised "in the church", but many, maybe most are not Christians. It is a social and cultural institution that has little to do with belief for many. My faith is not strong because I was raised in a church, it is strong because I questioned every idea I have ever encountered and found the answers in Christ.


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## acde (Jul 25, 2011)

Science has proven the bible accurate 100% of the time. If a weatherman with 100% accuracy told you it was going to rain would you carry an umbrella?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

tinknal said:


> DQ, there is one very important part that you neglect to mention. There are literally tens or hundreds of millions that have been raised "in the church", but many, maybe most are not Christians. It is a social and cultural institution that has little to do with belief for many. *My faith is not strong because I was raised in a church, it is strong because I questioned every idea I have ever encountered and found the answers in Christ*.


What he said.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

Sonshine said:


> The Bible tells us that people will know we are Christians by our fruit. Here lately there's been a few threads in which Christianity comes up. Some of the posts really concern me. What kind of witness are we if we talk to non-believers in a condescending manner? My Mom use to tell me you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.  But even if we aren't trying to win them to Christ, shouldn't we, as Christians, try to use our words in a more loving manner? How many people may be reading what we post that could be looking for what we have, but have walked away in disgust? I don't mean this to be a lecture, I have gotten caught up in it at times myself. I just think that if we want to be a good witness then we need to temper our words. OK, I know some with flame me, so let the flaming begin. (stepping off my soap box now) :soap:



James 3 (New King James Version)

James 3

New King James Version (NKJV)

James 3
The Untamable Tongue
1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. 3 Indeed,[a] we put bits in horses&#8217; mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body. 4 Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires. 5 Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things.
See how great a forest a little fire kindles! 6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. 7 For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. 8 But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. 10 Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. 11 Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Christianity is not a religion. It's a relationship. Non Christians seem to have trouble understanding this.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

tinknal said:


> DQ, there is one very important part that you neglect to mention. There are literally tens or hundreds of millions that have been raised "in the church", but many, maybe most are not Christians. It is a social and cultural institution that has little to do with belief for many. *My faith is not strong because I was raised in a church, it is strong because I questioned every idea I have ever encountered and found the answers in Christ.*


Well said, tink.

I've also found that people with the strongest faith I've met seem to be people who have faced tough (disastrous) times in their lives. Those who've always had it pretty easy seem less inclined to rely on a redeemer.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> Christianity is not a religion. It's a relationship. Non Christians seem to have trouble understanding this.


Absolutely right.

And churches shouldn't be seen as museums for perfect people. They should be hospitals for broken people. Both non-Christians AND many Christians have trouble understanding this.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

EasyDay said:


> Well said, tink.
> 
> I've also found that people with the strongest faith I've met seem to be people who have faced tough (disastrous) times in their lives. Those who've always had it pretty easy seem less inclined to rely on a redeemer.


Guess I am the exception.
I have gone through quite a bit in my life.
Just can't understand if there really is a god why would he be so cruel.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

pancho said:


> Guess I am the exception.
> I have gone through quite a bit in my life.
> Just can't understand if there really is a god why would he be so cruel.


Have you tried to understand?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

tinknal said:


> Have you tried to understand?


Tried a lot.
Haven't had much luck yet.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

pancho said:


> Tried a lot.
> Haven't had much luck yet.


God had a choice. He could have kept us as pampered pets, or he could have set us free. He set us free. Do you disagree with this choice?


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## demeter (Jul 15, 2010)

I'm the exception too, Pancho. And we're not alone. 2 veterans, (one my dad) lost their faith while serving in the military. One lost his during his tour of Korea during the Korean Conflict. The other while serving in Vietnam. Another friend lost his while serving as a police officer in Los Angeles.
The best way I can say it is, I lost my faith because I had no reason to believe. I really don't like that answer because it sort of sounds snotty. But I can't really put it any other way.

Demeter


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

tinknal said:


> God had a choice. He could have kept us as pampered pets, or he could have set us free. He set us free. Do you disagree with this choice?


I don't believe in him.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

pancho said:


> I don't believe in him.


Then why would you ask why He is "so cruel"?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

tinknal said:


> Then why would you ask why He is "so cruel"?


I didn't ask "why he is so cruel".
I asked "Just can't understand if there really is a god why would he be so cruel".


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

pancho said:


> I didn't ask "why he is so cruel".
> I asked "Just can't understand if there really is a god why would he be so cruel".


Fair enough. I hope you keep searching.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

tinknal said:


> Fair enough. I hope you keep searching.


Thanks.
I have been for quite a while.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

pancho said:


> I didn't ask "why he is so cruel".
> I asked "Just can't understand if there really is a god why would he be so cruel".


Are you so "cruel" you punish your children when they do wrong in an attempt to teach them? Are you so "cruel" you allow your children to make their own decisions even when you know it will have bad results? Are you so "cruel" you would allow your children to be punished if they freely chose to rob, rape and kill?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Guess I am the exception.
> I have gone through quite a bit in my life.
> Just can't understand if there really is a god why would he be so cruel.


God is not cruel, but there is an enemy to God that is. Of course, a lot of things that happen to us or others in life are because God gave us free will and we make some lousy choices. I don't believe that all our bad experiences are because of our bad choices though. I believe the Bible, so I believe that we live in a fallen world. Where there is sin, there are bad things. God, in his loving nature, helps us get through those bad times. Before I became a Christian I wasn't able to cope with some of my experiences in life. I was an emotional mess, unable to sleep without nightmares. When I became a Christian I had more peace than I had ever known. There are times that are still difficult for me, but I no longer contemplate suicide as I did before. I believe that it's only through God's grace that I am able to function in this life.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Guess I am the exception.
> I have gone through quite a bit in my life.
> Just can't understand if there really is a god why would he be so cruel.


Look around you. This is the way of the world. What is, is. Everything that is alive eventually dies. The evidence does not suggest that any deity who created our sphere was greatly concerned about suffering (human or otherwise). We have to play the hand we're dealt.

The good news is that there are wide variations within the realm of possibility. Another recent thread touched on the suffering in Haiti. Within the possible systems of human organization, we have Haiti on the one hand, and someplace like, oh, say, Sweden on the other. Both are populated by human beings, but for most, life is vastly better in one than the other. No?

Aside and apart from any god(s) that may exist, humans have an incredible ability to alter the world, for good or evil. History shows us that even lone individuals have changed the course of whole civilizations! For this reason, I'm always perplexed by people who say their life would be meaningless without the existence of a deity.  ???!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

watcher said:


> Are you so "cruel" you punish your children when they do wrong in an attempt to teach them? Are you so "cruel" you allow your children to make their own decisions even when you know it will have bad results? Are you so "cruel" you would allow your children to be punished if they freely chose to rob, rape and kill?


I am not so cruel that I will kill one of my children.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> God is not cruel, but there is an enemy to God that is. Of course, a lot of things that happen to us or others in life are because God gave us free will and we make some lousy choices. I don't believe that all our bad experiences are because of our bad choices though. I believe the Bible, so I believe that we live in a fallen world. Where there is sin, there are bad things. God, in his loving nature, helps us get through those bad times. Before I became a Christian I wasn't able to cope with some of my experiences in life. I was an emotional mess, unable to sleep without nightmares. When I became a Christian I had more peace than I had ever known. There are times that are still difficult for me, but I no longer contemplate suicide as I did before. I believe that it's only through God's grace that I am able to function in this life.


Some people would say that now you have someone or something to blame for all of the bad and thank for all of the good.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

willow_girl said:


> Look around you. This is the way of the world. What is, is. Everything that is alive eventually dies. The evidence does not suggest that any deity who created our sphere was greatly concerned about suffering (human or otherwise). We have to play the hand we're dealt.
> 
> The good news is that there are wide variations within the realm of possibility. Another recent thread touched on the suffering in Haiti. Within the possible systems of human organization, we have Haiti on the one hand, and someplace like, oh, say, Sweden on the other. Both are populated by human beings, but for most, life is vastly better in one than the other. No?
> 
> Aside and apart from any god(s) that may exist, humans have an incredible ability to alter the world, for good or evil. History shows us that even lone individuals have changed the course of whole civilizations! For this reason, I'm always perplexed by people who say their life would be meaningless without the existence of a deity.  ???!


Yes.
One question I would have is why, if there is a god, would he punish a whole country and reward another.
I can understand why some people would need something to believe in but don't know why many will not consider others may feel the same but believe in something different.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

pancho said:


> Yes.
> One question I would have is why, if there is a god, would he punish a whole country and reward another.


I think the Bible calls this "kicking against the pricks". 

God is not punishing one country and rewarding another, He is allowing each country to practice their collective free wills.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

tinknal said:


> I think the Bible calls this "kicking against the pricks".
> 
> God is not punishing one country and rewarding another, He is allowing each country to practice their collective free wills.


It isn't a country's free will if they get hit by a hurricane.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

pancho said:


> It isn't a country's free will if they get hit by a hurricane.


Nope, but it is their choice on how they prepare and respond to one. Like free will, I believe that God created the world with it's physical realities and it's ability to function on it's own.

I don't believe that God directly brings rain or drought. The earth, like it's people has been set loose to be on it's own.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

tinknal said:


> Nope, but it is their choice on how they prepare and respond to one. Like free will, I believe that God created the world with it's physical realities and it's ability to function on it's own.
> 
> I don't believe that God directly brings rain or drought. The earth, like it's people has been set loose to be on it's own.


If that was true it would seem like god doesn't take very good care of his flock.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

pancho said:


> If that was true it would seem like god doesn't take very good care of his flock.


I don't believe that we are His "flock". That whole free will thing, remember?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

tinknal said:


> I don't believe that we are His "flock". That whole free will thing, remember?


Just my opinion but I would think god would care about people as much as I care about my chickens.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

pancho said:


> Just my opinion but I would think god would care about people as much as I care about my chickens.


Your chickens don't have free will.

We are not God's chickens, we are his children. You raise your children up and set them free. If they return to you is up to them.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Some people would say that now you have someone or something to blame for all of the bad and thank for all of the good.


I guess some would, but just blaming or thanking would not have brought me the peace that I feel nor the joy. I'm not talking about the giddy feeling that most associate with peace and joy, but instead a feeling of rightness in my life. Regardless of what is going on around me, and even on days that I'm discouraged or depressed, there is still a sense of well being deep within me. Whereas before I accepted Jesus I stayed depressed and nothing would touch it. I was suicidal because I had no hope. My faith has given me hope. I guess that's the difference.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

tinknal said:


> Your chickens don't have free will.
> 
> We are not God's chickens, we are his children. You raise your children up and set them free. If they return to you is up to them.


I would wait until my children were mature enough to be on their own. Not just kick them out, in some cases, on the day they were born.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> I guess some would, but just blaming or thanking would not have brought me the peace that I feel nor the joy. I'm not talking about the giddy feeling that most associate with peace and joy, but instead a feeling of rightness in my life. Regardless of what is going on around me, and even on days that I'm discouraged or depressed, there is still a sense of well being deep within me. Whereas before I accepted Jesus I stayed depressed and nothing would touch it. I was suicidal because I had no hope. My faith has given me hope. I guess that's the difference.


Would you describe it more as a relief that there is now someone else in charge of your life?


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

pancho said:


> I would wait until my children were mature enough to be on their own. Not just kick them out, in some cases, on the day they were born.


Pancho, old buddy, are you seeking answers or looking for a fight? If the former I'll hang with you all day. If the latter let me know and I'll bow out.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

tinknal said:


> Pancho, old buddy, are you seeking answers or looking for a fight? If the former I'll hang with you all day. If the latter let me know and I'll bow out.


Like I have mentioned before. I have a lot of questions. Usually can't get anyone to answer them. You are doing a very good job.
Guess I will think about the ones you and others have answered on this thread.
There will be another thread soon and I will have some more questions.
Thanks for the trying to help me.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

pancho said:


> Like I have mentioned before. I have a lot of questions. Usually can't get anyone to answer them. You are doing a very good job.
> Guess I will think about the ones you and others have answered on this thread.
> There will be another thread soon and I will have some more questions.
> Thanks for the trying to help me.


I hope it doesn't squinge you all out telling you that I'll be praying for you.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

tinknal said:


> I hope it doesn't squinge you all out telling you that I'll be praying for you.


Not at all.
I appreciate that.
Thank you.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

pancho said:


> Some people would say that now you have someone or something to blame for all of the bad and thank for all of the good.


Some would say they've weathered through all the bad, so thank God for all the good.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

pancho said:


> It isn't a country's free will if they get hit by a hurricane.


...or a tornado. But, having faith and hope sure made laying in that creek bed less scary, while so much around me was destroyed.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

tinknal said:


> I don't believe that we are His "flock". That whole free will thing, remember?


"The Lord is my Shepherd..."

Yes, we have free will. Yet He watches over us. He doesn't abandon us if we misstep. He lets us learn and grow, as we do with our children. 

Not arguing, Tink, just giving my perspective of the "flock" thing.

****************

A Shepherd leads. Sheep look to the shepherd for guidance when they're lost or confused.
"He leads me beside the still waters." Looking to Him, He gives me hope when everything seems hopeless.
When I misstep, _if I look to him_, He guides me back onto the right path.

"He restores my soul". He gives peaceful rest. Rest is extremely important for restoration of our physical bodies, our minds, and our souls. That's why so many words are used regarding "rest" in the 10 Commandments... more words than any of the other Commandments.
We can sit/lay down and rest our physical bodies. We need to sleep to rest our minds. We need to release our burdens to Him, so He may restore our souls. "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest." (Matt 11:28)

So much frustration and worry in peoples' lives today, and that's of our own doing.
We are to close the door on yesterday... forget regrets and bad decisions (I struggle with this...), and don't worry about tomorrow (...and this).
We are given the strength we need for TODAY.
We can't change yesterday, and we aren't given the strength we'll need for tomorrow (until tomorrow). We are told that we will never be given more than we can carry... so we must stop trying to carry our entire past and any future with today's strength.

I just got carried away. Sorry for the blabber fingers.

It's just that The 23rd Psalm says so much!


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

EasyDay said:


> "The Lord is my Shepherd..."
> 
> Yes, we have free will. Yet He watches over us. He doesn't abandon us if we misstep. He lets us learn and grow, as we do with our children.
> 
> Not arguing, Tink, just giving my perspective of the "flock" thing.


I think any disagreement we may have is due to semantics. Unlike a sheep, I think to be a member of Gods flock we must choose to be so.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

On the note that the Father of Creation is raising up "children".......
Is it not the will of a diligent and wise Father that his sons and daughters grow up strong, wise and capable ? Is this accomplished through a sheltered upbringing ?
Is this accomplished via parents who cater to every whine, fall apart at every bruised knee, lavish ease and convenience upon the "child" ?

My scars are many, but I don't suffer much weakness nor lack of vision.

I am thankful for that.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

tinknal said:


> I think any disagreement we may have is due to semantics. Unlike a sheep, I think to be a member of Gods flock we must choose to be so.


Absolutely! It's that "free will" thing!


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

pancho said:


> I am not so cruel that I will kill one of my children.


If one of your children had committed murder would you refuse to turn him into the police if you knew he was going to face execution?


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

watcher said:


> If one of your children had committed murder would you refuse to turn him into the police if you knew he was going to face execution?


\We could play this game all night long, but there comes a point where there is no possibility of winning another soul.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Would you describe it more as a relief that there is now someone else in charge of your life?


Not really, because I'm still in charge of my life. That's where free will comes into the picture. It's hope. I'm not sure the best way to describe it, but I'll try. My childhood was rough. My mother is psychotic, but I didn't learn this until I was already an adult. My entire childhood I wondered what was wrong with me because I could never please my Mom, no matter how hard I tried. Then I married an abusive alcoholic and gave birth to 4 kids and buried 4 kids. After we divorced I enlisted in the Air Force. A year after I was in I attempted suicide, so the Air Force sent me for counseling. The counseling helped me to understand some things better, but I still felt hopeless and wondered what was the use of continuing with life. While in the Air Force I met my current DH. During the time we were dating we both became Christians. Some traumatic things have happened to us since we were married, but knowing that this life is not all there is has given me hope for a better life. It's given me purpose that I did not have before.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Like I have mentioned before. I have a lot of questions. Usually can't get anyone to answer them. You are doing a very good job.
> Guess I will think about the ones you and others have answered on this thread.
> There will be another thread soon and I will have some more questions.
> Thanks for the trying to help me.


I'm glad you're looking and really pray that you will find what you are looking for.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Forerunner said:


> On the note that the Father of Creation is raising up "children".......
> Is it not the will of a diligent and wise Father that his sons and daughters grow up strong, wise and capable ? Is this accomplished through a sheltered upbringing ?
> Is this accomplished via parents who cater to every whine, fall apart at every bruised knee, lavish ease and convenience upon the "child" ?
> 
> ...


Very well stated. I do believe you and I could match scars.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> I'm glad you're looking and really pray that you will find what you are looking for.


Thanks you Sonshine.
Sounds like you did have a rough time.
Hope you have found something to help you.
Good luck in the future.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Thanks you Sonshine.
> Sounds like you did have a rough time.
> Hope you have found something to help you.
> Good luck in the future.


I did. I found God.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> The Bible tells us that people will know we are Christians by our fruit. Here lately there's been a few threads in which Christianity comes up. Some of the posts really concern me. What kind of witness are we if we talk to non-believers in a condescending manner? My Mom use to tell me you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.  But even if we aren't trying to win them to Christ, shouldn't we, as Christians, try to use our words in a more loving manner? How many people may be reading what we post that could be looking for what we have, but have walked away in disgust? I don't mean this to be a lecture, I have gotten caught up in it at times myself. I just think that if we want to be a good witness then we need to temper our words. OK, I know some with flame me, so let the flaming begin. (stepping off my soap box now) :soap:



I agree, all, if done without judgement....James


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

tinknal said:


> \We could play this game all night long, but there comes a point where there is no possibility of winning another soul.


I'm just trying to make the point that your view of what's 'fair' is relative.


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## DQ (Aug 4, 2006)

Many say they have found the answers "in christ". Why then, have so many other people that have looked found the answers elsewhere? Christ must not be a terribly obvious conclusion. Most people happen to find the answer in the same beliefs as other people in their culture have. That is an observation anyone can make.

Sometimes people are compelled to "become christian" not because of their true conversion but because the people bringing it to them have food, clothing, medicine and technology which they essentially exchange for conversion. Their children are then raised with those beliefs and the cycle begins. Christianity has made especially good use of this tactic and it is a large reason for its success.

If I had the power to make a perfect world for my children and let them have perfect lives I would do so. I wouldn't subject them to horror, pain, shame, cruelty or suffering so that I could have my ego fed by their returning to me by "free will" or loving me by choice. I would give up their love for me to make their lives better. I wouldn't worship a god that was so shallow as to not do the same. 

Strangely, peoples gods tend to have nearly every deplorable human trait imaginable. Probably because such behavior was associated with authority and giving such traits to a god solidifies the authority of it/him/her. A god that didn't offer punishment or reward and didn't have some sort of criteria for doling it out is sort of a lame duck. It would be powerless and irrelevant and therefore religions based on such gods are not nearly as successful.

To think that people make poor choices in their life because they are evil or have simply chosen to be "bad" and that they have "free will" shows complete ignorance about the human mind and how genetics, circumstance and happenstance affect how we think. It is archaic. Bad choices that hurt other people also have a distinctly negative impact on the person making the choice even without supernatural punishment.

People don't just wake up one day and decide they would prefer to be cruel and hurt other people. there are numerous cases of tumors or strokes causing substantial changes in personality and even making people dangerous. Their choices aren't _pure_ free will and neither are ours or the people that populate our prison systems or perpetrate crimes. the sooner people recognize this fact the sooner real world solutions can be found and the suffering inflicted by these people can be relieved. You can't fix problems when you don't see them for what they really are. you, me and everyone are a product of that measly poorly designed and wholly imperfect lump of tissue in our head called a brain.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

DQ said:


> Many say they have found the answers "in christ". Why then, have so many other people that have looked found the answers elsewhere? Christ must not be a terribly obvious conclusion. Most people happen to find the answer in the same beliefs as other people in their culture have. That is an observation anyone can make.
> 
> Sometimes people are compelled to "become christian" not because of their true conversion but because the people bringing it to them have food, clothing, medicine and technology which they essentially exchange for conversion. Their children are then raised with those beliefs and the cycle begins. Christianity has made especially good use of this tactic and it is a large reason for its success.
> 
> ...


Not really sure what this has to do with the OP.  It's your right to believe or not, but that isn't what this thread is about. It's about those who have chosen to believe and how we should respond to certain things.


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## DanielY (Aug 25, 2011)

DQ said:


> If I had the power to make a perfect world for my children and let them have perfect lives I would do so. I wouldn't subject them to horror, pain, shame, cruelty or suffering so that I could have my ego fed by their returning to me by "free will" or loving me by choice. I would give up their love for me to make their lives better. I wouldn't worship a god that was so shallow as to not do the same.


You consider yourself pretty wise.
God did in fact make a perfect world. Man rejected it. You are not wise enough to even realize that is the nature of man. You assume that God gives us free will in order to boost His ego. What makes you think God needs us to boost His ego? There are actually many many other reasons God would give us free will. Genuine relationship for one. You would create puppets.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Sonshine, I got flamed for believing as you do as well. I just think my purpose is to bring others to God and let HIM sort it out. Too many people are driven away by overly judgmental people who refuse to have any thing to do with people who don't fit a perfect mold; if we all did that, who would be left to save ANYONE? If I am not here for the sake of other sinners and those who do not believe, if I remove myself from them, who on earth will give them the opportunity to be saved? I have seen more people turned off and walk away from any possibility of salvation from ranting, raving, judgmental, bible pounding hypocrisy. I made a conscious decision NOT to do that, to live my Christian life in a way that invites people in, not that drives them away.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

beccachow said:


> Sonshine, I got flamed for believing as you do as well. I just think my purpose is to bring others to God and let HIM sort it out. Too many people are driven away by overly judgmental people who refuse to have any thing to do with people who don't fit a perfect mold; if we all did that, who would be left to save ANYONE? If I am not here for the sake of other sinners and those who do not believe, if I remove myself from them, who on earth will give them the opportunity to be saved? I have seen more people turned off and walk away from any possibility of salvation from ranting, raving, judgmental, bible pounding hypocrisy. I made a conscious decision NOT to do that, to live my Christian life in a way that invites people in, not that drives them away.


This is how I look at it, except it's not our job to save them, but to lead them to the Savior. I also believe that there will always be some who will not accept. Instead of getting angry that others may not agree with us, I believe we need to accept their decision. I believe it's every Christian's job to be a witness, but it's not our job to attack others for not believing. Unfortunately I see many who tend to respond in anger to an unbeliever. Like you, I think the ranting, raving and basically brow beating another does more harm to our testimony than if we had just kept quiet. I've learned that the best witness comes in actually listening to the unbelievers, treat them with kindness and respect. At one time we were all unbelievers, but God found a way to open our eyes. Too often I think we, as Christians, forget that our job is to lift Jesus up and Jesus will draw them.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Being brow beaten with religion as a child is the #1 reason I don't like it. I've found I have no need for it, either. And I detest the brow beating for it as an adult too, (the diffrence now is that I can actually defend myself from it and move away from it as an adult, couldn't do that as a child) though I like to see others view points on topics, I have quite a few now on ignore, as I personally have felt very uncomfortable with thier brow beating, and i've come to a point where I really have on a few occasions thought to leave the forums, and now I do avoid even all the "please pray for me" requests, don't even open them anymore (not because I don't like the people, I do wish them the best, but because I've just gotten so fed up and pretty much avoid ALL religious topics now) I pretty much leave all topics once the religious back and forth stuff comes up. So to those who respect others enough not to force it down people's throats who think diffrently about things, you have my respect as a fellow human being. I DO click once in a while on a clearly religious topic but only if I know certain people have started it or are posting because they seem much more reasonable and a lot less fanatical.

Thats just the view point from someone who isn't a christian so take it or leave it.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Nickie, you just proved our point exactly. Thank you for taking the time to respond.

And I am SOO glad I am not on your ignore list...I would miss the spiders !


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

becca, I would NEVER put you on the list  You are an honest to goodness decent human being and I would love to meet you in life!


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

NickieL said:


> Being brow beaten with religion as a child is the #1 reason I don't like it. I've found I have no need for it, either. And I detest the brow beating for it as an adult too, (the diffrence now is that I can actually defend myself from it and move away from it as an adult, couldn't do that as a child) though I like to see others view points on topics, I have quite a few now on ignore, as I personally have felt very uncomfortable with thier brow beating, and i've come to a point where I really have on a few occasions thought to leave the forums, and now I do avoid even all the "please pray for me" requests, don't even open them anymore (not because I don't like the people, I do wish them the best, but because I've just gotten so fed up and pretty much avoid ALL religious topics now) I pretty much leave all topics once the religious back and forth stuff comes up. So to those who respect others enough not to force it down people's throats who think diffrently about things, you have my respect as a fellow human being. I DO click once in a while on a clearly religious topic but only if I know certain people have started it or are posting because they seem much more reasonable and a lot less fanatical.
> 
> Thats just the view point from someone who isn't a christian so take it or leave it.


Nickie, believe it or not, I do understand where you are coming from. It was being preached AT that drove me away from Christianity in my early teens. I eventually chose to come back, but try to respect the fact that not everyone will agree with my faith and that's ok too. That's your decision and I respect that decision.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

NickieL said:


> becca, I would NEVER put you on the list  You are an honest to goodness decent human being and I would love to meet you in life!


Hmmm, hoping I'm not on your ignore list either. I enjoy reading your posts and like your spiders. (the roaches I could do without though) :lookout:


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Sonshine said:


> Hmmm, hoping I'm not on your ignore list either. I enjoy reading your posts and like your spiders. (the roaches I could do without though) :lookout:


You are not on that list  You have to really peeve me off to get there lol And you haven't!! :goodjob: lol when i was a kid, i learned to escape saturday night and I would stay out in the woods till monday morning--just to avoid church. HA. (I was a bit of a wild child..how dare they try to comb my hair, put me in itchy tights, those horrid painful church shoes and a dress ..and not to mention those luke warm saturday night baths lol) hahaha


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

NickieL said:


> You are not on that list  You have to really peeve me off to get there lol And you haven't!! :goodjob:


That's good to know. I try to get along with everyone, but of course, we both know that's not always possible.  I have only put one person on ignore during my time here at HT and that poster is no longer on the forums. Not sure if she got banned or just left but it seemed like no matter what I did she decided she wasn't going to like me.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Sonshine said:


> That's good to know. I try to get along with everyone, but of course, we both know that's not always possible.  I have only put one person on ignore during my time here at HT and that poster is no longer on the forums. *Not sure if she got banned or just left but it seemed like no matter what I did she decided she wasn't going to like me*.


That is her loss. I might not agree with all of your posts, but I do feel that you bring a great deal of value to the forums here.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

TheMartianChick said:


> That is her loss. I might not agree with all of your posts, but I do feel that you bring a great deal of value to the forums here.


Thank you. I really appreciate knowing that I may, in some small way, have something to contribute.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

NickieL said:


> Being brow beaten with religion as a child is the #1 reason I don't like it.


I tell people all the time you can't "beat the Bible into someone". But at the same time as Christians we can just stand back and do nothing. My job as a Christian requires various things. One is to be a light. That light can either allow someone to see their way or it can expose things they want to keep hidden. Those with things they wish to keep hidden will curse and run away from the light. At that point I'm not supposed to chase them down to keep the light on them. But at the same time I'm not going to shine my light else where nor turn it off just because they don't like it.




NickieL said:


> Thats just the view point from someone who isn't a christian so take it or leave it.


That is EXACTLY what Christians are supposed to do. After, we have done our job, we are to accept the choice people make. 

BTW, I have to wonder if you'll even see this or if I'm one of the fanatical ones on your ignore list.


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## reluctantpatriot (Mar 9, 2003)

I treat Christians as they treat me, basically, I turn the saying do unto others as you wish them to do unto you backward. I treat others as they treat me, especially hard right, fundamentalist Christians. If someone treats me politely and is not trying to convert me five seconds after we meet, I have no qualms about treating them equally well. If someone is proselytizing, or telling me what their god says about gays and lesbians, or how un-American I am because of my beliefs do not match Christian Fundamentalist or Christian Dominionist thinking, I then become their worst nightmare.

I have survived a rural areas where church attendance was no metric of how faithful one was to Christianity. In fact, many of the people I went to school with and in the rural area were the worst ambassadors of the belief I had seen. Because I did not attend church I was called a devil worshiper by classmates who were promiscuous, drank heavily on the weekends and more but had the audacity to take me to task for lack of belief and church attendance. In high school I never drank, never dated and kept my nose to my studies while doing some sports. I was not perfect, but I did good for others and treated them well despite how they treated me.

I had a certifiable psychotic stepmother with whom I lived with all of 60 days after she married my father. My mother was able to get me out of that household and I lived with my grandparents, her parents, while she was still driving as a truck driver at the time. I never had such a strong reaction against religion until she decided to use fire and brimstone and threaten my life on multiple occasions if I did not become Southern Baptist.

I have had others from the Church of Christ attempt to brainwash me with peer pressure and psychological tactics. I have had Jehovah's Witnesses not get the message that I was not interested and I have had Mormons not get the message after I told them multiple times, politely, that I was not interested.

On the other hand, I was asked by a Jewish friend in college to attend her temple service and enjoy a holiday event there and I had a Malaysian Muslim floormate in college invite me to a celebration she was having during a Muslim student association holiday event. What was the difference? They both were not trying to convert me and did not expect me to become one of their faith. In both cases they simply wanted to extend the offer to come and share their cultures, which was common at my university with the diversity of the student body.

After those events I have attended Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Lutheran and even non-denominational services. My wife is United Church of Christ ordained as a hospice chaplain. However, I am not Christian. She has her faith and beliefs and I have mine. We work out differences by finding the commonalities. In fact, she has a peeve about conservative Christians because of their own hypocrisy in regards to Jesus and his teachings. She has her Masters of Divinity from seminary and is very knowledgeable about what she speaks and she often has to speak to those who are actively dying. She does not, and by law cannot, seek to convert people. She reaches out to them wherever they are at and treats them with respect and helps them through their difficulties, even if she has to say a Jewish prayer or even help someone who is agnostic at their time of passing.

Her Wisconsin Synod Lutheran grandparents, however, make it difficult at times. My wife has a pass on judgement since she is clergy, but I have to be very, very careful what I talk about, even the most innocent of things, because they view things quite differently. Their worldview is that Christianity, particularly their faith, is the only correct one. There cannot be any other way of thinking and they view themselves superior and more pious than anyone else. Does that mean they are cruel and heartless? No. However, I cannot discuss anything in depth because I do not want to start arguments over things as basic as visiting Spain because they believe Catholics are godless heathens as are Baptists, Hindus, Methodist, Mormons, basically everyone who is not their faith. There is no difference of faith, not even if one is a different Christian denomination. Why they overlook my wife's difference of denomination I do not know, but they do.

After listening to hatred, bigotry, prejudice and more from people on this site, as well as in other areas of daily life, over the years I have come to the decision that I treat others as they treat me. If they cannot open their minds that not everyone believes and lives as they do and cannot accept that while letting it be, I refuse to overlook that situation. I do not wish to convert anyone. I just want others to accept that they just may not have the corner on truth and wisdom. I also do not appreciate being preached to, preached at or being the focus of proselytizing. The more people insult my intelligence and refuse to respect my differences, the more snarky, rude and blunt I become about what I think about their views and double standards.

I am not accusing anyone here. I am only stating why I act as I do. This is my desire to express how I view Christians and Christianity. I have more philosophically in common with the spiritual and cultural beliefs in yoga and kenpo than I do with what supposedly is Christianity currently. That is my view as someone who is not a Christian and how Christianity is perceived. My wife's UCC faith and works match up with helping the sick, the needy and the vulnerable more than it matches conservative Christians' desire to wage preemptive war against anything and anyone who does not believe as they do or force beliefs upon others. In yoga when we say "namaste" we profess it as it is meant to be, we honor the god or spirit within everything, ourselves and others and show reverence and respect to all. In kenpo we use force for defense only and follow a code of respect and honoring those more knowledgeable than we are while also protecting those in need and helping those who are less fortunate.

I have no problem with what Christians want to believe. My problem is with how they act upon it in thought and deed as there are so many who seem to be Christian in name only with no resemblance to Christ or his teachings. I have a problem with those who want to tell others how they must live and what another can and cannot do with their body. I have no desire to tell others what they can and cannot do with their own bodies or forcing someone to believe as I do. I would rather have someone live as they wish as long as it does not harm me or mine. I just want the same.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Reluctantpatriot, any true Christian can tell you that the Devil has put out many stumbling blocks to ensnare the unwary. Christ himself warned us about false prophets who will try to trap us. Focus on the _word_. 

Please don't let false Christs divert you from faith.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

reluctantpatriot said:


> I treat Christians as they treat me, basically, I turn the saying do unto others as you wish them to do unto you backward. I treat others as they treat me, especially hard right, fundamentalist Christians. If someone treats me politely and is not trying to convert me five seconds after we meet, I have no qualms about treating them equally well. If someone is proselytizing, or telling me what their god says about gays and lesbians, or how un-American I am because of my beliefs do not match Christian Fundamentalist or Christian Dominionist thinking, I then become their worst nightmare.
> 
> I have survived a rural areas where church attendance was no metric of how faithful one was to Christianity. In fact, many of the people I went to school with and in the rural area were the worst ambassadors of the belief I had seen. Because I did not attend church I was called a devil worshiper by classmates who were promiscuous, drank heavily on the weekends and more but had the audacity to take me to task for lack of belief and church attendance. In high school I never drank, never dated and kept my nose to my studies while doing some sports. I was not perfect, but I did good for others and treated them well despite how they treated me.
> 
> ...


First I want to apologize for the way you have been treated and I do understand the frustrations. I may have missed it, but in this thread I have not seen any Christians attacking you or anyone else, that's why your post seemed rather strange to me. It was like you just wanted to tell Christians why they were so wrong. If, as you say, you just want to be treated with respect and you will in turn treat others with respect, then it seems like the one who was being disrespectful in this thread was you. Again, I'm sorry you have been so ill treated by some in the Christian community, but I didn't see anyone in this thread treating you wrong, so why the outburst of anger?


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## demeter (Jul 15, 2010)

Can't say I disliked someone because they were Christian. But I have disliked plenty of folks who happened to be Christian.

Demeter


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

demeter said:


> Can't say I disliked someone because they were Christian. But I have disliked plenty of folks who happened to be Christian.
> 
> Demeter


Here is another snare. Say someone has identical political beliefs as you but you dislike the person. Do you abandon the belief or do you just avoid the person? 

As a Christian I would rather have someone reject me and accept Christ than accept me and reject Christ.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> *A Question For Christians....*The Bible tells us that people will know we are Christians by our fruit.


Matthew 7:15-20

15 &#8220;*Watch out for false prophets*. They come to you in sheep&#8217;s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 
17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 
20 *Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.*

Matthew 7:20-23

21 &#8220;*Not everyone who says to me, &#8216;Lord, Lord,&#8217; will enter the kingdom of heaven,* but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 
22 Many will say to me on that day, &#8216;Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?&#8217; 23 Then I will tell them plainly, &#8216;I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!&#8217;



> Here lately there's been a few threads in which Christianity comes up. Some of the posts really concern me. What kind of witness are we if we talk to non-believers in a condescending manner?


Matthew 7:15-16

15 &#8220;Watch out for* false* prophets. They come to you in sheep&#8217;s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 
16 By their fruit you will recognize them.



> My Mom use to tell me you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.  But even if we aren't trying to win them to Christ, shouldn't we, as Christians, try to use our words in a more loving manner?


Galatians 1:6-10

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel&#8212; 
7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God&#8217;s curse! 
9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God&#8217;s curse!

10* Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God?* *Or am I trying to please people?* *If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ. *



> How many people may be reading what we post that could be looking for what we have, but have walked away in disgust? I don't mean this to be a lecture, I have gotten caught up in it at times myself. I just think that if we want to be a good witness then we need to temper our words. OK, I know some with flame me, so let the flaming begin. (stepping off my soap box now) :soap:


2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for_* teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, *_
17 so that the *servant of God* may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 

Isaiah 55:8-11

8 &#8220;For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,&#8221; declares the LORD. 
9 &#8220;As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts. 
10 As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, 
11 *so is My word that goes out from My mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.*


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

I am so late in this discussion but after reading the posts I really wanted to comment. 

Some say they have no proof or reason to believe because of the bad things that have happened in their lives. I am sorry for whatever the reason is and I am sure some are just very hard to get through but I would still like you to stop and think about some things. 

As you sat and ate today did you wonder why you were given this bounty? Yes, I know you work for the money to buy and I commend that but did you wonder how you were able to obtain the job you have? Not everyone is able to get that job or any job. Did you wonder why you were able to sit in your airconditioned home and do whatever you enjoy? 

Many times it is much after the fact that I stop and think to myself or sometimes even say it outloud. God, there is no other explanation but you. Thank you! There are also those times that I stop and wonder why it is this way? Why me? Some things I will not know until I reach heaven but many things are answered tomorrow or the next day or 20 years later.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

For those offended by anything I write about my Christianity, I apologize for offending you but I cannot and will not apologize because you are offended. Those offended are not those struggling with their beliefs. Those folks will ask you questions about what you wrote or said. Those offended are well aware of what their beliefs are or are not and they are not interested in Christianity.
In fact, they are mainly anti-Christian. They pretend they might become Christians if Christians acted and sounded more like them. BS. The only way they would ever agree with Christians is if Christians renounced their faith and became like them. We are supposed to carry the Gospel to people but not waste time on those who refuse it. Sometimes standing up to nonbelievers can sound harsh, but it is supposed to.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

poppy said:


> For those offended by anything I write about my Christianity, I apologize for offending you but I cannot and will not apologize because you are offended. Those offended are not those struggling with their beliefs. Those folks will ask you questions about what you wrote or said. Those offended are well aware of what their beliefs are or are not and they are not interested in Christianity.
> In fact, they are mainly anti-Christian. They pretend they might become Christians if Christians acted and sounded more like them. BS. The only way they would ever agree with Christians is if Christians renounced their faith and became like them. We are supposed to carry the Gospel to people but not waste time on those who refuse it. Sometimes standing up to nonbelievers can sound harsh, but it is supposed to.


Jesus said in 
Luke 9 5 - *And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them.â*


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

I have been given much and much has been taken away from me. I don't think any of that was "god's fault". But I do know that the Universe/God/Goddess and the namaste that is in all things (even Christians sometimes wink) has given me the grace to survive it all and still love. 

I was raised evangelical christian, but now I don't really need a name, or the "right" name for it. And what is "it" (remember the "I Found It" bumper stickers of the 70's?). It's not for me to tell you what your it is. I'm on my right path. All I can hope for is you all are on your right path to be all you can be.

I am loathe to call myself a spiritual label actually. I find labels to be blindering and confining and limiting. I enjoy hearing from everyone. Except the holier than thou types. Talk to the hand ha!


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

HDRider said:


> Jesus said in
> Luke 9 5 - *And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them.â*


Yep, and this.

*40-Matthew* *40-5*:*13* Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Sometimes you have to be a little salty.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

wyld thang said:


> I have been given much and much has been taken away from me. I don't think any of that was "god's fault". But I do know that the Universe/God/Goddess and the namaste that is in all things (even Christians sometimes wink) has given me the grace to survive it all and still love.
> 
> I was raised evangelical christian, but now I don't really need a name, or the "right" name for it. And what is "it" (remember the "I Found It" bumper stickers of the 70's?). It's not for me to tell you what your it is. I'm on my right path. All I can hope for is you all are on your right path to be all you can be.
> 
> I am loathe to call myself a spiritual label actually. I find labels to be blindering and confining and limiting. I enjoy hearing from everyone. Except the holier than thou types. Talk to the hand ha!


This is not in anyway meant to offend or take away what you have said but I would like to make a statement that I hope comes out right on here. I have trouble expressing what I want to say by typing it.

I have heard many folks say that someone else thinks they are holier than though. Sometimes maybe that is correct but I think we have to be very careful that we are just not envious because someone is happy. They walk and talk with a certain bounce in their step. Sometimes they just are enjoying their walk with the Lord. I truly believe when you find that relationship it changes the way you carry yourself. You actually know that you are not alone no matter what. It just makes you feel good and safe. 

Now on the other side. God did not want us to use a relationship with him to put others down or walk on anyone. I am sure he frowns at such actions. Kind of like walking in church and having the people look you up and down to make sure you have on the "right" clothes. Not cool at all. IMO you should be able to wear whatever you have and feel great just being there. This is a huge disagreement my cousin, minister and I have. He believes you should always dress in your finest to go to church. Well sometimes your finest and my finest are not even close. 

I am going to find a story I read once a little about this and post it.


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You make some good points
> 
> Just keep in mind most of those "non believers" are just trying to get you stirred up, and probably the best thing to do would be to not address them at all about religion, because no matter what you say, they don't care, and will show no respect


Its pretty simple, no matter how fluffy you make your words to sooth feelings, your always going to be considered condescending. But what i believe is that we are to tell them the truth, no matter if it does prick their feelings and to leave it at that. ITs not our job to pull them in, our job is only to tell them about Christ and salvation and after that its the HS job. I think the HS will do a much better job of pulling them in. Our job is only to go into the world to teach and preach the gospel


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

You know i see a lot of folks say "if theres a God why does he let so many bad things happen". Well its like this, folks gripe and complain because he doesn't intervene, and then they gripe and complain cause he does intervene or someone gets their panties in a wad because someone says let go and let God have his way, and we get told don't shove God down their throats. 

Do you see a pattern here? Why would God intervene when people are so petty and hateful towards him. If i were to come by and slap you upside your head every day and one day i wanted you to intervene in some trouble i am in, would you even bother with me? 

The good thing is that he does intervene at times and makes his presence known. Even after everyone slaps him upside his head and spits in his face.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

I'm more of the opinion that it isn't that God did or didn't intervene, rather a certain amount of things that happen are just 'life'. I also believe that, just like good things impact and have a purpose, so do the bad things. An awful lot of good comes from bad in almost every instance. 

Since we can't see all things or know all people, we just don't see the whole picture and how that bad thing played out in the end. Rather we only see what we see and then come to a conclusion that might not be the way it _really_ is.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

grandma12703 said:


> This is not in anyway meant to offend or take away what you have said but I would like to make a statement that I hope comes out right on here. I have trouble expressing what I want to say by typing it.
> 
> I have heard many folks say that someone else thinks they are holier than though. Sometimes maybe that is correct but I think we have to be very careful that we are just not envious because someone is happy. They walk and talk with a certain bounce in their step. Sometimes they just are enjoying their walk with the Lord. I truly believe when you find that relationship it changes the way you carry yourself. You actually know that you are not alone no matter what. It just makes you feel good and safe.
> 
> ...


You are a very sweet person, I dont' want to rain on that. I'm talking about the holier than thou that calls a woman a whore for leaving her abusive husband. 

I was a pastor's wife, I've been around the block a few times... my pet fashion protest was to not wear panty hose and sport bare legs(ankles).


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

acde said:


> Science has proven the bible accurate 100% of the time.


Not sure where you're getting that info from as your source 100% wrong.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

pancho said:


> Guess I am the exception.
> I have gone through quite a bit in my life.
> Just can't understand if there really is a god why would he be so cruel.


 God Cruel? He gave us this world and set it up as a paradise.
Mankind is the bringer of cruelty. 
Do you think God programmed us like a bunch of little robots? no its free will that lets us do the things we do.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

barelahh said:


> You know i see a lot of folks say "if theres a God why does he let so many bad things happen". Well its like this, folks gripe and complain because he doesn't intervene, and then they gripe and complain cause he does intervene or someone gets their panties in a wad because someone says let go and let God have his way, and we get told don't shove God down their throats.
> 
> Do you see a pattern here? Why would God intervene when people are so petty and hateful towards him. If i were to come by and slap you upside your head every day and one day i wanted you to intervene in some trouble i am in, would you even bother with me?
> 
> The good thing is that he does intervene at times and makes his presence known. Even after everyone slaps him upside his head and spits in his face.


 
I, for one, am SO GLAD we are made in God's image and not the other way around.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

pancho said:


> It isn't a country's free will if they get hit by a hurricane.


 :umno: A hurricane is natures way of moving hot air out of the equatorial region, its NOT punishment from God.


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

mnn2501 said:


> :umno: A hurricane is natures way of moving hot air out of the equatorial region, its NOT punishment from God.


I totally agree. God created the universe and the earth and set it in motion. that includes the weather, the movement of big space rocks that sometimes crash to earth and kill, set forth natural laws that govern gravity, inertia, etc. 

Lots of things happen that hurt and kill people. Thats the gift he gave us, being there but not interfering in our will. Sometimes he intervenes, in certain cases, but for the most part people live and people die. That too is a blessing to all of us. I would not want to live to be 900 years old like methuseleh, and adam and noah. nope not me. 
I'm only 52 and i'm about fed up with this world as it is.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> God Cruel? He gave us this world and set it up as a paradise.
> Mankind is the bringer of cruelty.


Really? I hadn't realized we invented the mosquito ... (spreader of malaria, which still kills around a million people annually).


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> Really? I hadn't realized we invented the mosquito ... (spreader of malaria, which still kills around a million people annually).


Don't forget ticks, we definitely did not invent ticks.

as a neopaganhippychristianyogadruidcatholic, my world is so much better. 
people talk about a high from being with god, people talk about god guiding them through rough times, others speak of meditation or working out or burning things or casting a spell or etc etc etc.

if you take positive teachings and apply them to negative things in your world you will feel better. If you are kind and warm and gentle to others, some will try to tear you down, but the majority will respect you. the golden rule is the most basic of teachings in this world and is the foundation for every religion currently in existence, even the "evil ones". 

What atheists and others fail to understand about any religion really is, that having "faith" in a deity is almost exactly like me having faith in my drill instructor, or combat trainer etc. They were/are men/women on this earth with a message I needed to learn and i felt that if I learned it, I would be able to face and overcome something bad and reach a goal of something good. 

( my neighbors are great people who constantly invite us to church and god is mentioned at least 4 or 5 times in every conversation, until I finally broke down and told them, I am a man of faith not of religion, my relationship with any god or goddess is between them and I)


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## Lazaryss (Jul 28, 2012)

willow_girl said:


> Really? I hadn't realized we invented the mosquito ... (spreader of malaria, which still kills around a million people annually).


I suppose it was humans that created the natural treatment for malaria? The artemisia annua (sweet wormwood).


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## bjba (Feb 18, 2003)

After observing people all my life I've learned people usually find what they are looking for.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> Really? I hadn't realized we invented the mosquito ... (spreader of malaria, which still kills around a million people annually).


But wouldn't have to as we have both prevention and cure. Too bad greed and bad people get in the way. 

Besides malaria really wasn't really that prevalent until we started digging up jungles and swamps.
Many diseases were not that prevalent until we started fouling our environment.
Of course if you believe dying gets you into heaven, then dying isn't really such a bad thing, its merely the next step in our existence.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I've noticed most people expect to go to Heaven, but few are in a hurry to get there.


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## Work horse (Apr 7, 2012)

grandma12703 said:


> As you sat and ate today did you wonder why you were given this bounty? Yes, I know you work for the money to buy and I commend that but did you wonder how you were able to obtain the job you have? Not everyone is able to get that job or any job. Did you wonder why you were able to sit in your airconditioned home and do whatever you enjoy?
> 
> Many times it is much after the fact that I stop and think to myself or sometimes even say it outloud. God, there is no other explanation but you. Thank you! There are also those times that I stop and wonder why it is this way? Why me? Some things I will not know until I reach heaven but many things are answered tomorrow or the next day or 20 years later.


Actually, there are a lot of times when I sit back and think "I am so lucky." And then I correct myself. This is not luck, it is the result of hard work and perseverance. Or, I guess you could say "Luck is where preparation meets opportunity". 

I think it would be nice to have a religious belief as a crutch in life; I'm just not wired that way and it was not successfully "installed" in me as a child (brought up in a Roman Catholic household). 

I am so fascinated with the beauty of life and the science behind it I don't spend a minute thinking about anything beyond that.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> I've noticed most people expect to go to Heaven, but few are in a hurry to get there.


May I please be your exception to the rule?:happy2:


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

willow_girl said:


> I've noticed most people expect to go to Heaven, but few are in a hurry to get there.


And another vote on the exception.:happy2:
That's a sure way to tell a true believer, Willow.
It's easy to be misled by the fakers.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

If you have to tell someone you're a Christian, you probably ain't much of one. And that's all I got to say about it. For the moment anyway.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Scripture lobbing reminds me of the cowpie fights we had a kids. Lotsa fun competition with little understanding of what's in it. When the grownups find us, they're gonna hose us down in cold water and scrub with a stiff brush!

The Word of God is multi-dimensional. What I learned reading the Bible as a child was greatly expanded reading it again as a teen. Walking in that, gaining experience, reading over and over again as adults, and studying with elders who show fruit, we never stop learning the depths of Who God IS, and Who is His Son, Jesus Christ. Who is the Holy Spirit? 

Read it! Walk it! That's how you move from simple Faith to the Knowledge of God. The doctrine of Jesus Christ is simple enough for a child to understand. 

Most folks would rather sit passively and be taught divisive denominational doctrines of man, have their manmade rules, drag the unclean things into the temple, slap the name of Jesus on it, call it Holy. Claim this part, or that part of the Bible is not relevant, let their pastors pick and choose and twist.

DD18 has many "Christian" churchgoing friends. She was stunned to learn none of them have ever opened their Bible to read.

Is it enough to TELL people about Jesus Christ? No. We are to SHOW people. We are the Light unto the World. We are to operate in our GIFTS of the Holy Spirit. GIFTS, plural. Something beyond chaotic babbling. We are to seek the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit and USE them. 

How many churches even believe in the operational use of ALL the Gifts of the Spirit these days? Not many. They can't be controlled by man.

I don't think He cares if you recited the sinner's prayer 30 years ago or not, if you don't show Fruit, He will lop you off and throw you into the fire.

What IS the Will of the Father?


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