# LGD puppy wants to guard me instead!



## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

We got a Komodor puppy two months ago who is now going into his 5th month and wow is he one giant puppy!

We kept him up near the goats and chickens for the first few weeks and let him wander with us when we were out and able to supervise. 
We now let him stay out and about and overall he is doing real well with all the critters, (outside of trying to play with the goats at times) and either the goats or we correct him as needed and we are much nicer than our goats, lol

Recently he seems to have decided he wants to be my guard, follows me everywhere outside while working, but he won't leave the spot where he last saw me if i go into one of the pens, sheds or house.

If I come back to the house he follows and stays there and is not doing the job he is meant to do... 
He wants in the house real bad, and I think he wants to be an indoor pampered pet, lol

any suggestions? 
we do have a large "mobile" pen made out of cattle panels we have parked out by the animals areas, but hate to keep him cooped up in it all the time.

thanks!


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

You are going to have to pen him with his flock to prevent this. He's young though, so you might have to get after him if he tries to play with them.


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## Deep Woods (Jun 12, 2011)

Is the collar helping any?


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## PNP Katahdins (Oct 28, 2008)

He is bonding to you rather than your critters. Not good. Working LGDs are supposed to guard livestock, not people. You need to decide he belongs with the goats rather than leave it up to him.

Good luck getting him back where he belongs, if that's what you really want him for.

Peg


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> If I come back to the house he follows and stays there and is* not doing the job he is meant to do*...


That's why an LGD should never be treated as a pet



> any suggestions?


Put him in the pasture with the animals he's supposed to be protecting and* leave him there*


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## Faithful (Jul 15, 2011)

Leave him with the livestock.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I agree with the others, it's tough love for you. But you have to leave him there.
You can go out there and feed him, a pet on the head, then leave.
When I let all the sheep out into the yard, YES Ziggy and Boomer run up to the house to see if there is any left over dog food. They also like a little pettin, but then they go on guard. Boomer goes up on the hill behind the house, and Ziggy guards the porch...LOL
I think it's a problem with Ziggy wanting to lay on the porch when Boomer (now 9 months) is on guard. But I pay careful attention to what he is doing. The sheep will hang around the porch and then move to the side of the house, so Boomer watches them there. And if Ziggy does not see the sheep make their rounds he gets up and goes and checks on them. So they are working, it just seems like ziggy wants to lay around on the porch?....LOL


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## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

]obedience train.

sit, stand, down, leave it, stay

once trained, put dog with livestock... stay! and if he starts to chase then use leave it command.

with the dog in the same space as the livestock... feed, brush...wait..can you brush a corded dog? so tend his coat, put a tissue - folded in half and over your finger in his ears... wiggle your finger around - cleans ears and the dogs just love it. Do tummy rubs, handle each foot - check between toes and tell the dog each time you are doing something ...

ears - handle ears
foot - each time you touch his foot

I use the word open and open the dogs mouth 
teeth means I want to raise their lips and see or brush their teeth

all of this shows you are alpha and lets the dog know what you want.

Once the dog is familiar with stay command, just put him in with the livestock and tell him to stay.

he is young and you are still mommy! putting him in with livestock all alone without another dog (you in this case) to teach him is like having a two year old dropped off at preschool and saying "see you later". That baby will cling to you.

Your dog may be an all around farm dog. One that can stay with the livestock when needed, you, the farm, enjoy rides to the store to get pet which I highly recommend socializing your puppy on a leash in the store. This will allow strangers to come onto your farm because you have given the command it 'It's' ok. It's Kenny! oh goodness.. Kenny, he was the kids friend that lived a mile up the road. He would just walk in (house or gate) and yell 'it's kenny' and the dogs would let him in without any problem. But if he forgot and opened the door/gate... the dogs would try to take his head off! 

At 5 months my first dog (21 years ago) was far too young to be allowed to go up into the mountains alone with my goats. I spend many hours reading a book with my goats and puppy during the day light hours with them in the mountains.

I had taught the goats and puppy to come to a bell. I have a large farm bell I would ring and treat the puppy with hand fulls of treats and the goats would get peanuts, sweet grain, sweet cereal the kids got and didn't like! LOL!

Ring, treat, ring, treat, and so on. each day I would go through this routine. I fenced a small area up on the mountain so I could see the livestock and dog. The idea behind this was... as a puppy he needed to be brought in to be safe. The pack of coyotes would take him out. I brought the goats and the pup in at night.

So during the day I would put the goats in the fenced in acre on the mountain, put the pup in with them and say 'stay'. Before dark, I would ring the bell and bring everything in to the protected area. (this means for me, livestock holding pens. The goats know which one is theirs) This worked well for training the dog to stay with the goats and as the dog grew up and matured, he learned to stay with the goats full time.

I introduced a female puppy and my male now trained my female. I still did obedience training, socialization in public, but my male because of all of the training I gave him, now trained my female. The female required less mommy time. When I picked up two more dogs - male and female- The male pup went with the female and the female pup went with my male... again other then obedience training and socialization off the farm, the older dogs trained the puppies.

all of this to say, don't panic, the dog isn't ruined. He is a baby that needs to be guided, taught, reprimanded when necessary and since his mommy dog isn't there... you're it.

In a shepherd flock world, a puppy is partnered with an older dog and a shepherd. If the shepherd didn't have an older dog to train.. he spend his time training.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Also why isnt he in a pen?


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## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

thanks for the replies and suggestions.


our animals are all free range during the day, except for the pigs, so we wanted Baxter to be able to wander with them. 
He does seem to check up on them, but he much prefers to wait by a door for my return.
The first few days we had him, we kept him inside the turkey pen which is centrally located among the critters, with the birds inside their coops, then we moved him to the goats area after we had observed his behavior with them. Our herd queen puts him in his place quite quickly if he acts up, but at times he still tries to get them to play with him and either us or the goats quickly correct him.

We have a large mobile cattle panel pen that we now use for time outs and also had him in there for a short time around the animals pens, but that didn't make much sense as none of them hang out there during the day.

He does seem quite smart and will sit & lay on first command 95% of the time and he is still grasping the concept of stay (50%) but getting much better.

We have to remind ourselves daily of just how young he is, he prolly weighs close to 100 lbs already(!), but is still a young puppy.
Westbrook,
we aren't supposed to brush his hair, so we have clipped him some and plan to keep it shortish as he always looks a mess. So far he lets me mess with his ears, mouth & feet and I do it alot while he is eating. 
I am teaching him words...
he knows "Baxter!! knock it off!" already, lol


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

My father and his family always had Komondorok. The Komondor breed has been declared one of Hungary&#8217;s national treasures, to be preserved and protected from modification. Komondorok were bred to think and act independently and make decisions on their own. You are not going to ever change that.
They are instinctively very protective of their family, home and possessions. Yours is just protecting you. He needs to spend more time with the animals that he is supposed to be guarding.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Your dog may be an all around farm dog. One that can stay with the livestock when needed, you, the farm, enjoy rides to the store to get pet which
> 
> I highly recommend socializing your puppy on a leash in the store. *This will allow strangers to come onto your farm *because you have given the command it 'It's' ok.


Why would anyone want to socialize a GUARD dog to the point that it* accepts strangers*?


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Why would anyone want to socialize a GUARD dog to the point that it* accepts strangers*?


Because you told the dog "it's okay" or whatever word you want to use. This is so Grandma can visit, and the meter reader won't get attacked.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Well this is where I think everyone has different situations and that there is NO totally right - all - the - time answers for so many LGD situations. It is not always black and white. What might work 'all the time' for a majority of folks, actually might not work for a few.

Here you have a pup who's showing you that he's more inclined to be guarding you than the stock. You do need to leave him in the stock more so he bonds with them and understands that there are times he will be expected to guard them, not you or the house. I think we all need to remember too, to give the LGD credit for 'common sense'.

Many (not all but many) LGD's have instinctive 'nose' for trouble and 'bad guys'. I sell eggs from my ranch. So once in awhile, I have people stopping at the gate to buy eggs. They are always met with barking dogs (those who are not out with goats). The dogs look to me for my reaction. Am I nervous, bothered? They don't let guard down. If I tell them "its okay", and begin speaking to the people and am calm and they are friendly, my dogs back off. They look to me (the alpha) for guidance on how to act however a few also stay back not greeting but just keeping eye on things because they are 'wired' that way - not too friendly to anyone unless it's regular person they know (and even then sometimes they get the 'cold shoulder'). 

It is hard for me to picture your set up there. How close are your livestock to your house? Can you get to them quickly? I am just trying to think through this and wonder if after you get this pup more strongly bonded to stock, if you could rig up a 'dog door' for him to be able to guard both stock and you and house. In other words, a way he could get in and out of the stock. Only issue might be, again, if he does not quickly learn and bond to your stock, he'll want to be with you all the time so this idea might not fly.

Another thought. Can you put him in the stock during night when predators are most active, and let him have the yard/house/family guarding during the day when he is more likely to nap after being up all night (if he does that).

I know there are different opinions about socializing. Some breeders/owners prefer none, some a little. I socialize all my pups but they are also put in the stock when tiny. As they grow - and here you don't have any older LGD's to show the way, either - they learn from older dogs how to observe what's a threat, how they act around strangers etc. This imprints on them and they take after the 'elders'. Your pup is going to look to you for that guidance, you must be his Alpha leader. I would not encourage him to be overly friendly to people. I don't know the Kom's or their temperaments at all and therefore can't say how they are as a breed. But if they have strong guarding instinct I think with patience you can make this work. But most important now is to get him locked on to those stock before he's too much older and you lose that short window of time you have to really get him bonded to them. What you strive for - guarding you and stock - can be done, I know, I do it here, but it's fine line, you have to be sure to MAKE the young dog know that its expected he/she will guard stock not just hang out with you.

Best of luck.


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## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

Goatress,

our setup is open...

we are on 150 acres with about 5 acres cleared around the house, the only real fencing we have outside of barb wire around the perimeter of our property is surrounding the turkey pen, pig pen, orchard and the garden. 
Everything else is open for the animals, (I trained the goats to stay away from the house with a super soaker squirt gun)...

The chicken coops are closest to the house and right behind them is the goat barn, turkey pen and down the hill a short ways is the pig pen.

We found it is much easier (cheaper) to keep them all out of certain areas than to keep them in, and it works for us as they all stay pretty close around the house.
we slowly add secure fenced areas when we can afford it.

all that to say it would be difficult to keep Baxter in any one area except at night if we locked him in with the goats. I am not comfortable with that as he still needs supervision to correct his brief moments of exuberant puppy goat play.
As soon as I realized he'd rather be guarding/near me than the goats, I started backing way off from interacting heavily with him.
He does love to be with the goats and wanders around with them some during the day, most times he is parked near the kitchen door waiting on me, so outside of using the mobile dog pen to keep him in one place where the animals we want him to guard may or may not be, I am at a loss.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Because you told the dog "it's okay" or whatever word you want to use. This is so Grandma can visit, and the meter reader won't get attacked.


To me, a *TRUE LGD *has no reason to be roaming around loose to begin with.

*Most* don't let their livestock wander, and the dogs should be *contained* with the animals.


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## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

Bearfoot,
I understand about what MOST people do, but am asking about how to help make it work with how we do it..

Free ranging on 150 acres of dense woods isn't like wandering a neighborhood, lol

The goats are spoiled rotten and stay within the perimeter of our cleared 5 acres, we wish they would go into the woods and help clear it some, but they won't go out of eyesight of the house or goat barn unless we are with them. We have tried walking them into the woods, but as soon as we leave, they follow...
We live very rural and our property is surrounded by 1,000's of acres of land, mostly dense woods also, owned by folks who raise cattle on cleared pasture areas.
stuff can and will happen when livestock free ranges, but this setup works quite well for us outside of figuring out how to get the new puppy to bond with the goats, when he'd really rather be a house/people dog.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

I enjoyed reading this thread. We have have a MGD (M for medium, only around 75#s now). Sam makes up for it with courage, heart, and intelligence. From what I have read on these threads, we have done a lot of things right with Sam (adopted at 6 yrs of age, was abused, and now a completely different dog). 

I will share we allow our chickens to free-range on just under 7 acres. We still have just under 5 acres in forest, connects with many forest acres... Not at any time do we encourage our Sam to go in the forest, but have taught him to stay within our cleared area, where our critters are, too. If we encouraged Sam to go in the forest, he would be contending with wolf packs, bear, and even cougar! With him patrolling, we haven't seen any of these critters in our cleared area.

Sam is allowed to bark at every one who enters our property, by car, or on foot. It is US, who tell him to stop and "it is okay now." I praise him for alerting us. We can go camping, have friends feed our critters. Sam stays home to guard our property & critters. He understands friends are there to feed the critters and also him. They are allowed there, but he will not allow any strangers to enter.

Utilizing the excellent advice given here, you will undoubtedly raise up a fine LGD who will guard your livestock and also you, in time!


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Ellie Mae, I pm'd ya......


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Let me preface this by saying I am not experienced with LGDs. I am learning now, right along with you. i have two 5 month old Anatolian shepherd pups. But I'll tell you what i would do.

you may have to confine the pup in a pen next to goats for a while. He can't bond with animals that he can't hang out with. Right now, he would rather stay with you because he knows you and adores you. so he needs a little tough love. Build a pen (stock panels are wonderful for this) and divide it in half. Put him on one side and livestock on the other. This will force him to befriend them in order to not be lonely. They may have to be penned together for a while for the bonding to start. during this time, limit your contact with him to necessary care. 

One of my Anatolians is in a pen near the yard, with a sheep in the pen next to him. When Isaac first went in this pen away from his brother (who is in another pen in the sheep paddock), he was unhappy and missed his brother terribly. And he missed me too. He laid by the gate, longing to get out. Over the past few weeks though, I noticed him spending lots of time laying next to the stock panel that separated him from the sheep. So this weekend I opened the stock panel up and let isaac in with that sheep. They are like best friends now! I still take Isaac out for social time with me, but when he returns to the pen the first thing he does is run over to check on his sheep. I think he is bonding with him. 

I fully believe that your plan of a family/stock guardian dog can work. It's sort of non-traditional but I know it can work. These are smart dogs. They know what belongs and what doesn't and will learn to protect his entire property.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Friend sent me this link on the breed:
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/komondor.htm

They are a pretty serious breed. They can be snarks, lol. My friends' husband worked with these dogs in a sheep camp. He said that when the shearers came, they had to lock the Koms up or they'd try to kill the crew for touching the sheep.

They kept grizzly bears at a perimeter. They even killed a couple of black bears and a mountain lion....now that is one tough, serious independently thinking and primitive breed. He said further they made Kangals look calm lol now that is pretty intense because I can tell you a Kangal can be a piece of work, too.

Anyhow you know your pup may have a vantage point where he's hanging out, and for all we know, he actually might be doing his job! But read the description of the breed, its quite interesting, and I sure learned a lot. It also strongly recommends socializing them particularly with children, when young.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/komondor.htm


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

From my research and experience with our current Great Pyrs, I have found that LGD's work best in teams. That way one can stay close in with the stock and the other can walk the perimeter of the pasture. 
Ours roam all over the farm, warning coyotes to stay off every inch of our place.
If I penned them up with the goats, they wouldn't be able to run guard in the cattle pasture when needed. 
They are VERY good at what they do. Ours are still young at 9 months old, but already they show the instinct to go to work in the late afternoon when the coyotes start coming out of the woods.


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## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Why would anyone want to socialize a GUARD dog to the point that it* accepts strangers*?



we each have different farm set-ups, from 1000's of acres of land to a back yard.

I have a small farm in the Mountains that does back up to 1000's of acres of National Forest. 

I would call my little speck on the planet a Hobby Farm. I do raise, goats, chickens, turkeys, rabbits, and from time to time sheep.

I sell what I raise and more often then not, I do have many that butcher in an area I set up just for this purpose.

This means that I have people coming and going looking, buying trading, and so on. I also had children and their friends.. now into the grand-children phase of my life.

I needed to dogs to accept 'strangers' when I passed them through the gates so these 'strangers' could look over the stock. I let the dogs be all around farm, house, livestock, and sweeties on a leash at the store. I also showed my dogs from time to time and they loved it... all!

Twenty years ago there was no internet, groups, forums to discuss all of this, what is right and what is wrong. How you are supposed to do it and not do it. I trained the dogs for what I needed and wanted.

I try to share with others what worked for me and it is up to the person asking to take what I share and pick some of it, all of it or none of it.

so when I say:


"I highly recommend socializing your puppy on a leash in the store. This will allow strangers to come onto your farm because you have given the command it 'It's' ok. "

Why raise livestock if you aren't selling it? why need a LGD if all you have is 3 goats and a couple of chickens?

If someone comes to my little farmette with a trailer because they are going to pick up 10 head of goats.. I need the dogs to allow this stranger to back their truck and trailer up, get out.... and help the goats keep moving in the shoot and into the trailer. 

This stranger is taking their charges away... and it is ok because I say so. The dogs don't like it, they go over yonder and lay down ever watching this stranger and my behavior toward them.

It is like having children over to play with the kids. I need the dogs to know that the chasing, laughing and playing around.. boys are so aggressive... that it is ok. Even though the dogs are behind a fence, honestly... they can go over if they really wanted to.

I would love to learn more about how much land you have what you are running on it, how your dogs live with the livestock and etc. Me? I just have a wee wee 40 acres... no forest but the mountains are covered in scrub and pine trees.

My last pup, now 4 is a beautiful dog. He is dangerous! I did not socialize him as I was going through chemo as he was growing. It took me about a year to get partially back to normal. I can't let anyone in the yard with him... no "It is ok, go lay down" he has to be locked in a kennel. He barks and growls and you can't talk over his noise! he wants to kill the stranger.

So I tell everyone that gets one of my pups.... socialize them. On a leash they need to behave, at home off leash.. they run the place.. but when you say "It's Ok" ... it is ok.

hope that clears up why I prefer to socialize my dogs for my environment and why I recommend the same for others.


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## longshadowfarms (Nov 27, 2002)

Well said, Westbrook! I suspect there are more small farms on this forum than large spreads so I would think this would be a more normal situation than not. Even taking an LGD to the vet can be interesting. My last one was determined to kill the vet for some odd reason. I think it was her booming voice and dominant posture because he was just fine with the other vet in the practice who was much quieter/gentler.


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## ginnie5 (Jul 15, 2003)

we're a backyard set up. All I have is chickens but they're MY chickens. After years of neighborhood dogs breaking into my fence and killing my chickens I got a pyr. I know he doesn't have the guard duty he needs with just the chickens. So he guards us too. He has free run of the yard and the house. He goes for long walks with us. He's part of the family so he does need to be socialized. I can't take him walking if I'm afraid he will bite someone. Now coming to the house is another story. He's learned to read us very well. He can sit nicely at the door if I tell him or be a full blown barking, growling pyr if he senses I'm uncomfortable with someone and I would pity the person who tried to bother one of the children. 
After having a pyr in a situation like this I don't know that I would ever have any other type of dog around my kids. He loves them to pieces. My 6yo gets hurt and Tucker is there before I can even get to him. It is nothing unusual to walk in the den and see both the boys in the floor curled up with the dog. 
We went to the beach the other weekend with my inlaws and we had to put Tucker in a kennel. He won't let anyone in the house if we're not here....even when he knows them he makes it plain they should not be here. And our friend who has had big dogs for years said we should just take him with us or kennel him because even he was unsure about coming in the house with us gone. My 20yo took him because we were going the day before her and no way was she staying by herself at night without him here she said. Oh and the kids and the dog were miserable apart from each other. 
So no he doesn't have acres to roam and goats or sheep to guard. He has chickens and children and gets to go for walks in the park. He guards his little parcel very well though and even though he is ok with our dogs being around the chickens he won't let any other dog even near the fence without charging. And he is happy. The big lug lays there on his back, paws in the air, big lips hanging down making it look like he's smiling and snores away. 
I even know some people who use pyrs as medical service dogs. Seems quite a few of them are wonderful at detecting drops in blood sugar and various medical issues since they bond so closely with who/what they're protecting.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Very well said Westbrook. My pups get very heavily socialized. I know Anatolians are a big less accepting of strangers so they go with me to handling classes (preparation for showing), the farmer's market, the feed stores, etc. I am even considering using one of them as a therapy dog. when they are back home, an intelligent dog understands that the rules change. they understand they are back on duty and need to look out for the stock and belongings.


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## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

I think Tucker is a darling name! these dogs are so adaptable.... I don't think they need a lot of livestock.... they just need a job and if it is you, your family, a few chickens or a kitten.... they are happy.

I hope to remember these dogs in my next life! I love them.


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## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

I used to pull the dogs away from the livestock to go to handling classes... it worked for me and the dogs. They would go into the show ring all puffed up, proud and strut their stuff... it was fun.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

longshadowfarms said:


> Well said, Westbrook! I suspect there are more small farms on this forum than large spreads so I would think this would be a more normal situation than not. Even taking an LGD to the vet can be interesting. My last one was determined to kill the vet for some odd reason. I think it was her booming voice and dominant posture because he was just fine with the other vet in the practice who was much quieter/gentler.



I had the opposite happen. The vet assistant tried to bend down and look into their eyes and be sweet to them, and my boys went off!! The vet ran out and yelled at the assistant to stand up!! and stop looking and talking to them! And then told her never do that to a livestock dog. He stated they are doing their job! Then he walked over to them and showed her what to do. He also told her to never assume that all dogs are friendly especially working dogs. 

I felt bad for her, but at least she learned a lesson about some LGD's.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

westbrook said:


> I used to pull the dogs away from the livestock to go to handling classes... it worked for me and the dogs. They would go into the show ring all puffed up, proud and strut their stuff... it was fun.


my pups do that too. They love to go on road trips....well, Isaac loves it and eli just tolerates it. But they love handling classes when they get there. And the first thing Isaac does when he gets back home is runs over and checks on his ram.


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## RJMAcres (Sep 9, 2009)

If we're out in the pastures, 3 of our 4 pyrs will follow us leaving 1 to guard the goats.
Once in awhile it will be all 4 with us.
If they hear a goat make a different noise or they suspect a predator is around, they
head straight back to the goats.

I have no problem with that at all.


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

Hello,

I do like reading about everyones experience with the LGDs, and understand the need for the different types of management with them. 

For me, with the smaller farms of 200 or less acres, let them have access to all of it. The need to bond them to a particular animal in the farm is not needed. 

I run the Turkish Breeds Boz and Kangals. Although I keep most fenced in with the stock, it is more for the seperation of the dogs than anything. 

The ability of a LGD being a YARD dog, Family dog, and also guarding the entire farm is only natural to me. The dogs I have running outside of the fence to protect the fowl, are family pets. They will protect or prevent predators from coming within 1/2 to 1 mile of out farm. 

If I bring in a new animal, the introduction is a must (different needs for each dog or animal introduced). But the dogs will protect the home, fowl, goats, cows,,,,etc.

I take some to town, festivals, work, parks,,,, But will still guard the home, and allow few people outside of their car. And none into the pastures. They seem to read your comfort level. And quickly learn allowed people,,, and prevent all others from entering. 

So for the average small farm, with mixed species of livestock,,, Let them guard the whole thing. 

I do agree in the need for a different management practice with the large farms where the livestock is not withing a reasonable distance to the home.

Then in that situation,, human bonding should be limited.


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