# Best way to debark/finish logs (draw knife?)



## icentropy (Jul 5, 2013)

Hi all, The wife and I are getting ready to break ground this spring on our home. I will be using lots of logs in the building and I'm trying to start accumulating the tools I'll be needing. 

My question is on debarking the logs. I'll have them delivered by the truckload directly from the logging company and will have to debark them. We're talking about close to (40) 35' long longs 12-16" in diameter. 

All will be exposed to the inside of the house so i want them to look decent. I don't mind labor intensive but don't want to spend the entire year debarking and I have no idea how long it would take with a draw knife nor do i know what specific kind/size would be best to use. Other option i heard about was a chainsaw mounted debarker (never used one so not sure how well they work or better said what type of finish they leave in the hands of a novice) what type of debarking tool do you guys recommend?


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## chromdome35 (Apr 12, 2013)

What kind of trees? How long have they been cut?

Consider using a stripping spud. http://www.motherearthnews.com/green-homes/log-building-tools-debarking-spuds-drawknives.aspx


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Depends on the species of tree how hard they will be to de bark . Early spring does help . I have picked up poplar logs in the spring with a knuckle boom and had to clamp them tight to keep the bark from slipping off and the log shooting wild .

Never had one those chain saw de barkers but think it is easy to score the logs . We used what looked like a straightened out garden hoe to get the left over bark off cross ties after sawing . Tight bark hickory is next impossible :hammer:


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## icentropy (Jul 5, 2013)

I believe I'll be getting mostly tamarack. As for when it was cut that's up in the air. It basically will depend on what the logging co has available. I'm trying to save money anyway i can so they could be anywhere from a year to freshly cut. Also will depend on if they're cutting nearby or not. I get my firewood logs from them as well and if they're cutting locally i save a couple hundred bucks on a full truckload.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

Where in WA are you?


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## icentropy (Jul 5, 2013)

chromdome35 said:


> What kind of trees? How long have they been cut?
> 
> Consider using a stripping spud. http://www.motherearthnews.com/green-homes/log-building-tools-debarking-spuds-drawknives.aspx





logbuilder said:


> Where in WA are you?


Out in the highlands of Okanogan county. By a little ghost town called Chesaw.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

There is a lot of dead standing tamarack over there. Are you getting fresh cut or dead?

BTW, I'm in Darrington.


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## icentropy (Jul 5, 2013)

logbuilder said:


> There is a lot of dead standing tamarack over there. Are you getting fresh cut or dead?
> 
> BTW, I'm in Darrington.


Normally (for firewood) it's whatever is left (what they can't deliver to the mills) but for this project i'll make sure it was all fresh cut.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

For fresh cut logs, I prefer a draw knife. I like the straight ones vs the curved ones.

How do you plan on moving/handling 30 foot logs?


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Never seen tamarack, so I can't say how it would do, but most timber, the bark will loosen quite a bit if you simply let it lay a few months.

For a 'bark spud', I use a floor scraper.....looks like a straightened out hoe...and I cut/ground it down to where it was only about 3" wide. (It started at about 6" wide).











The chainsaw mounted de-barker (Log Wizzard) will de-bark ( I use one sometimes on dirty logs before I saw them on Woodmizer), but it will leave a 'not real smooth' place where you run it. If you want nice, smooth logs, forget that tool. Plus, doing a whole log would wear you out ! I just cut a small strip right in front of the blade when I'm sawing.


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## icentropy (Jul 5, 2013)

logbuilder said:


> For fresh cut logs, I prefer a draw knife. I like the straight ones vs the curved ones.
> 
> How do you plan on moving/handling 30 foot logs?


Backhoe to move them around. I was hoping to get the foundation in this spring and get the logs debarked and ready for next spring to put up the rest. 

I have a flooring spade i got from home depot that i think might work to get loose bark off. Any suggestions on a drawknife brand or model. I'm thinking on just getting a cheaper 10" straight blade Seems like it got decent reviews for what it is. Also I'm no experienced wood worker so I have a feeling I won't be very kind to it so i'd rather mess up a chinese tool than a nice european one while i learn what the heck i'm doing.  I'm hoping the only real difference will be in having to sharpen it more often. 

I designed a passive solar heated house with a enclosed greenhouse taking some designing points from the hippy earthship (without the tires) ideas but modified to actually work in our climate and that looks more at home in the NW mountains It's gonna be a big project but should come out pretty cool


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

What type of log construction are you going to use? Butt and pass, scribed, D logs?


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

Here is a link to a VERY detailed journal of building a butt and pass log house. I think it started in 1992 and is still going. Lots of pictures and much commentary.

http://paulandellen.com/loghome/loghome.htm


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## icentropy (Jul 5, 2013)

logbuilder said:


> What type of log construction are you going to use? Butt and pass, scribed, D logs?


I'm just using the logs (round) as vigas and also as posts to support the front main ridgepole. The rest of the framing will be stick built. The back wall (retaining wall) will be made of ecology blocks and will support the vigas on the backside.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

The bark comes off tamarack (larch) very easy when green. Dry not so much, also needs to come off soon as bugs are/get between bark and wood and leave little tunnels and wood dust. They are a fast growing tree, straight, turn yellow/brown and drop their needles.

Also tamarack have fine splinters, always wear good gloves., the splinters have no color so you have them before you see them....James

http://www.logbuilding.org/finishing_log_homes.pdf


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

When you get them debarked, be sure and store them off the ground. A few sacrificial logs will do the trick. They need to dry.

Last time I debarked a bunch of logs, I built a rack that put the logs at the right height for me to work on them. Make the rack wide enough that you can roll the logs to get at all sides.


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## icentropy (Jul 5, 2013)

logbuilder said:


> When you get them debarked, be sure and store them off the ground. A few sacrificial logs will do the trick. They need to dry.
> 
> Last time I debarked a bunch of logs, I built a rack that put the logs at the right height for me to work on them. Make the rack wide enough that you can roll the logs to get at all sides.


Thanks for the advice. I was wondering about how to keep them off the ground. Is there any danger of them warping or bending if they dry only supported in two places?



jwal10 said:


> The bark comes off tamarack (larch) very easy when green. Dry not so much, also needs to come off soon as bugs are/get between bark and wood and leave little tunnels and wood dust. They are a fast growing tree, straight, turn yellow/brown and drop their needles.
> 
> Also tamarack have fine splinters, always wear good gloves., the splinters have no color so you have them before you see them....James
> 
> http://www.logbuilding.org/finishing_log_homes.pdf


Thanks! I'm thinking my hands would turn into a fist of blisters if i tried to debark them without goves, good to know about the tamarack though.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

Since you are talking about 30 feet, I'd use three logs.

What type of roof are you going to put on top?

If you are going to have to deal with any building inspectors, you'll find that they know diddly about it. They are used to dealing with graded lumber. I have a little book that shows tables for log spans and carrying capacity for many different types of wood. It will help you to get the right diameter logs for the spans you anticipate as well as give you guidance on spacing. It is in another location so I will look next time I am there and see if tamarack is listed. If so, I can copy the pages and get them to you.

Here are some links for you to explore. The first one is for the book I mentioned however this one is updated:

http://www.loghelp.com/p-70-log-span-tables.aspx
http://www.timbertoolbox.com/Calcs/logbeamcalc.htm


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## icentropy (Jul 5, 2013)

Going to be a metal roof ( log vigas, pine boards, rigid foam, OSB, metal roofing).

Here's videos of a guy doing basically the same thing. 
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-86iPkcy1G4[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgB72AKav78[/ame]


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## icentropy (Jul 5, 2013)

logbuilder said:


> If you are going to have to deal with any building inspectors, you'll find that they know diddly about it. They are used to dealing with graded lumber. I have a little book that shows tables for log spans and carrying capacity for many different types of wood. It will help you to get the right diameter logs for the spans you anticipate as well as give you guidance on spacing. It is in another location so I will look next time I am there and see if tamarack is listed. If so, I can copy the pages and get them to you....


Thanks very much, I'd really appreciate the page on tamarack if you find it. Nope no inspection here. Where i live is don't ask don't tell with building permits. The inspectors don't even want to come up here. Now the tax guy...he comes quickly but is just happy to take folk's word for buiding size and type them taxes go up next year and that's ok.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

My roof is built up so I know what you mean. I didn't use rigid foam but rather valleys and bat insulation.

I'm curious, have you considered how you are going to get flat sides on the logs? Access to a portable saw mill would be great but otherwise you can scribe and chainsaw it. I would think a couple of jigs would make it easier. You want a uniform thickness when it is all said and done. You are going to need flats on the ridgepole. I made a small cabin and didn't cut flats. The resulting roof was a bit wavy.

Here is my house (not the small cabin) just in bones in Dec of 2005.


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## icentropy (Jul 5, 2013)

logbuilder said:


> My roof is built up so I know what you mean. I didn't use rigid foam but rather valleys and bat insulation.
> 
> I'm curious, have you considered how you are going to get flat sides on the logs? Access to a portable saw mill would be great but otherwise you can scribe and chainsaw it. I would think a couple of jigs would make it easier. You want a uniform thickness when it is all said and done. You are going to need flats on the ridgepole. I made a small cabin and didn't cut flats. The resulting roof was a bit wavy....



Yeah there's a chance I'm going to have to drop the rigid foam and go with batt insulation as well. The guys in the video used 8" of foam and according to my math that's approx 8.5K in foam alone just to achieve an R-32! haven't done the math to see what batt and wood would cost but i'd imagine it'd be less than half. I haven't figured out the flats yet but i'm hoping i'll only have to put flats on the sections touching the back retaining wall and on the front where it sits on the beam. I hope to be able to leave the tops alone. Don't mind if it's a bit wavy as long as it's strong and I think using all the layering will hep smooth imperfections out some by the time it gets to the metal.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

My roof is 2x6 car decking as first layer. Then 2x12s on edge to create 16" wide valleys. 12" batt insulation. Then OSB and standing seam metal. Before the insulation went in I had to do wiring, can lights, skylights, smoke detectors, and fans. So the time between decking/valleys to OSB cover was a long time. I didn't have any help at that stage.


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## icentropy (Jul 5, 2013)

logbuilder said:


> My roof is 2x6 car decking as first layer. Then 2x12s on edge to create 16" wide valleys. 12" batt insulation. Then OSB and standing seam metal. Before the insulation went in I had to do wiring, can lights, skylights, smoke detectors, and fans. So the time between decking/valleys to OSB cover was a long time. I didn't have any help at that stage.


how's that level of insulation working out for you and what's the normal winter temps? I'm at 4K elevation and day temps are around 15-30F during winter but do dip down to 5-15F at night and there's the occasional -20F cold snaps. Right now trying to figure out the right compromise between insulation amount and expense.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

icentropy said:


> how's that level of insulation working out for you and what's the normal winter temps? I'm at 4K elevation and day temps are around 15-30F during winter but do dip down to 5-15F at night and there's the occasional -20F cold snaps. Right now trying to figure out the right compromise between insulation amount and expense.


Lows in normal winter are in the low 30s. Sometimes into the 20s.

Humm.. first thing to realize is that in a log house, there are lots of ways to loose heat. I've been slowly going after it for 5 years. It is confounding how many places a log house can leak air. And it changes over time. You won't have many of the issues I face since you are only doing the roof. So I'll focus on that.

I have all my overhead lighting via cans in the ceiling. 14 of them. Under code, which I did have to follow since I am in Skagit Co, there could be no insulation around the cans. I believe this costs me a bunch in heat loss. I wish I had not used OSB for the final sheeting. If I could do it again, I'd use 3/4 exterior tongue and grooved ply. Extra expense but that is what your metal screws into and is the last thermal barrier. OSB and moisture over time don't get along well. I don't have any problems that I know of but the possibility exists.

I'm in the Cascades but at low elevation, 600'. I am surrounded by mountains in the 3-5k altitude. We didn't get but two small snows this year. Three years ago, we had 4' for 3 months.

We heat by propane and wood. Propane about $1,000 a year (I own my own tank and shop yearly). Wood I cut myself from usually blow down so only saw gas as expense. I consider it exercise. We usually go thru 3 chords a year. Some more, some less. I keep 3 chords under dry cover and another 3 outside for next year.

In general, if you are talking about a structure you will live in, as much insulation in the roof as you can afford is a good investment. It will pay off every month in both comfort and finances.


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## icentropy (Jul 5, 2013)

Great info, thanks. We currently live in "the beater" a 70x14 single wide that was on the property when we bought it, it's a piece but has kept us under roof and kickin while we got situated and i got my shop built and going. It also bleeds heat and we go thru around 7 cords of wood with a modern efficient wood stove. No gas but we do run a radiator heater in the room farthest from the stove. I'm trying to design this house to use as little wood as possible during the winter and think i have it down pretty good but my biggest challenge is trying to find that happy medium between over engineering and taking years to build (we're doing this with cash so no mortgage) vs building it on the cheap to at least get out of "the beater" as soon as possible. Anything is better than our current house.  I'm also trying to figure out how much a radiant heat foil would help compared to adding more insulation or foam. Most info is on keeping heat out of the attic whereas i'm trying to keep heat in a building....


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## Hoopjohn (Mar 8, 2013)

I worked earlier in life building mainly handcrafted full scribe log homes. I built my own house using butt & pass, milled on 3 sides "D" logs. The maximum length logs I used were 16' in length. 
My garage was built using vertical logs. I built both the house & garage by myself, with the occasional assistance of a paid helper.

Here are my thoughts on owner/builder log construction. There is no way I would ever build using full round logs. The interior portion of the house logs will require infinite dust cleaning. A never ending chore.
While I have the viewpoint that the full scribe handcrafted log house is the cadillac of log homes, building them is logistically difficult. Each log needs to be moved a minimum of 5 times. Without a crane or some piece of heavy equipment at your disposal for the months required to build, the only alternative for lifting logs is building some highly dangerous contraption, putting ones body at high risk of injury. Moving logs 20' in length, often up to 50' in length is extremely dangerous.
It is the main reason why I built using logs that for the most part, were 12' in length. 

If I had to build another log structure in my life, it would unquestionably be using vertical logs, milled flat on 3 sides. If using a slab on grade, I would build the first 2' using stick built (all the electrical would go here), and the logs would start on top of this. One could easily then use 6' length logs, easily set into place by one person.

I also happen to think that logs are very resilient. I have seen people who built log houses 50 years ago, and rather than using stain, used a mixture of drain oil & fuel oil on the exterior of there logs. The structures are still standing.

Make allowances for settling over doors & windows. Use a slip joint. Yes, you can use green logs. In fact, nearly all of the handcrafted log homes are constructed using green logs. Green logs are easier to work with. 

It doesn't really matter what species of log you're using, within reason. I wouldn't use hardwoods, but thats about it. Far more important is having a plan to insure the logs don't face constant water issues. Make sure you have sufficient overhang and that the logs are at least 2' off the ground.
There are several people in this area that build hunting cabins using aspen (popple) logs. The properly built ones are still standing. The cabins that eventually crumbled were those built where the logs were started directly on the slab. Decades of rain backsplash meant the bottom logs rotted away.

Winter cut logs or standing dead logs are the best to use. Winter cut logs will have the very lowest sap content. If you'll be peeling winter cut logs, the best time to peel them is when temperatures start to exceed 60 degrees as daytime highs.


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