# Coyotes Troubles...



## thebaker (Dec 2, 2009)

Can anyone tell me what is the best dog to help protect livestock from these pest?

Coyotes are growing in numbers around here like crazy now an the other night there was a huge pack of them running really close by. So we had to get out our rifles too fire off a few rounds. There use to be lots of pet cats around here but since the coyotes are growing in numbers fast the cats are gone. So my husband said for us too try an find out what is the best dog to try an help protect our livestock. 

We don't want too loose any of our livestock from these pest. We've got other dogs but their small an wouldn't be of any help an do have one big dog but she too old so DH said if we can get some ideas of the best dog to get he will start looking an try from a puppy to guard them. We're expecting one puppy that's a boxer which is for inside of our home but need a livestock guard dog too. 

Thank You for the help.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

If it is legal, find someone who professionally hunts them. If you want an LGD you need to have a good idea of what you really have and how many there are. You need to know what time of day they hunt in. Coyotes have specific preferences, so if you have coyotes you can bring your livestock into a shelter during their hunting hours.Coydogs hunt in packs and are more likely to come into a barn and close to the house than a coyote. If you have coydogs you need a team of dogs. If you look at previous posts in this forum you can learn about different kinds of LGD. Some work by simply barking. Others will attack. A puppy is not going to be able to help you for a year or more. You might want to do some searching for dogs that have experience protecting livestock, maybe someone who is getting out of raising livestock will have dogs they don't need.

At any rate, your dogs will need to have bonded with the animal breeds they are protecting so they actually protect the animals, not just their territory.


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## thebaker (Dec 2, 2009)

What we've got here is 100% Coyotes not a coydog. 

On the puppy I said we're getting a boxer for inside of our home not for outside but we're looking for a good guard dog for livestock as we've got goats an got a female due to kid in Jan.. Yes! I know they have to get use to livestock. Talking about someone that is a professionally a neighbor of ours is but there is times the coyotes don't even come around it's at different times an seems to come around more when it's really wet or getting really cold. Which none of don't know why just yet. 

I got off the phone with another person tonight an they've seen the coyotes an their travel in a pack of 10 an her husband just shot one an called game warren an it is 100% coyotes not a coydog. We may try to search for a big white dog about a year old an get. My husband said when he get off work he will try an search papers.

Thanks


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Check out some of the Lgd links above for differences in breeds. I use a 3/4 pyr 1/4 Anatolian to protect my flock. Coyotes are thick here. Pyrenees are known for staying tight with the flock, though they can vary according to breeding. Buy offspring from proven working parents not show or pet. I used to have a half Anatolian and she liked to wander a bit to go off hunting coyotes. Other than that she was also a very good lgd. I really like the temperament in the one I have now, he is easy going and gets along with people on and off the farm, which is important as I don't want the liability of a dog that might be aggressive towards people. At the same time he is an excellent lgd. I am planning on getting a second dog next year and hope to find one similar. I'm looking potentially at a Maremma cross.


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## ChristopherReed (Jan 21, 2011)

My coyote guard dog solution is one dog that just makes alot of noise, and a 12 guage... My blue tick can be laying in bed (inside the house) and pick them up when they get in the yard. His bawl will wake the dead. And I head out side in my skivs.


A donkey would be a better choice if you have the room/are allowed.(IMO) THey dont take up much room, and will wear out a pack with vengence... They HATE dogs/coyotes...


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## Huntinfamily (Aug 14, 2010)

We have a rapidly rising Coyote problem here in Florida also. I don't have any experience with most of the LGD dogs many people have but our Black Mouth Cur has appointed herself as our livestock protector. She will kill almost any wild animal that she feels is a threat to our goats, chickens or rabbits. Because of her tenacity in a fight and my worry that she will be overwhelmed by some of the coyote packs that have been roaming around here we are getting two Black Mouth pups to live and learn from her.


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

For 16 years, my Great Pyrenees would USUALLY keep the Coyotes out of my fowl. But 2-4 times a week they would be out a ways howling much of the night.

After getting my first Kangals,,, things got quiet!!! I have not heard a pack in almost 8 years. They are scared to anounce themselves, and usually stay away. If they do venture in, they get chased out a mile or more,,, killed if caught.

The turkish breeds are far more aggressive about giving chase or engaging them. Kangals and Boz are what I raise,,, but many good Anatolians also would work.

Trapping, shooting, poisons are limited, because they are so smart. Might get a few,, then they learn the trick. Dogs are the only thing I have found that is 100%.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

MonsterMalak said:


> After getting my first Kangals,,, things got quiet!!! I have not heard a pack in almost 8 years. They are scared to anounce themselves, and usually stay away. If they do venture in, they get chased out a mile or more,,, killed if caught.


You don't worry about the liability or what your dogs might do when they are a mile or more away from home? What if a neighbor's pet happens to get in with the sheep, then escapes. Will your dogs keep after it until they catch and kill it? Even if it's half a mile away on the front porch of it's own home?


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

If a neighbor's pet gets in with any livestock the law sides with the stockman not the irresponsible person who didn't keep their pet contained properly.....we shoot a lot of stray dogs out here, and packs. They are fair game. My dogs nearly pulled a pit bull through a fence once. He's never been back. If I turned them out they'd kill a dog yes. And I would not stop them! Any dog caught in stock here is shot on sight.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Goatress said:


> If a neighbor's pet gets in with any livestock the law sides with the stockman not the irresponsible person who didn't keep their pet contained properly.....


Because the law would not side with the irresponsible person who didn't keep their dog/s contained is exactly why the lgd/s should not leave the property let alone the flock. Who will be protecting the sheep while the lgds are a mile away dispatching somebody's dog in their front yard or on public property. 
The lgd should stay with his flock as a defender, not go off hunting. He should also be smart enough to tell if somebody or something is a threat or not.


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

My dogs have never harmed any of my neighbors dogs. They seem to be able to tell the difference. In fact, I have never had a complaint about them. 
Some of my closer neighbors have a Min Sch and Min Pin. They come to visit often. 
Seems as if they are willing to be submissive, and not bother things, they are tollerated. I wish they would keep all the neighbors dogs away, but they do not. If the dog stays submissive, does not go close to the food or livestock, they will not chase them off. Even if I try to get them to. But I would rather have a dog like that than one killing neighbors pets.

When my dogs run out into the night after the coyotes, it is always out towards the thick woods and beaver marsh. Seems the coyotes do not run towards the neighbors homes.

I understand the reasoning that the dogs should stay with the flock,, but turkish breeds actively repell the predators. And for me have been 100% effective for going on 8 years now without a single loss. 

The LGD studies in Europe and Asia Minor noted that the areas with the strongest populations of predators, and also the least livestock losses were in areas where the dogs chased the predators at least 1/2 a mile. The predators that were only repelled out to 300 yards would keep probing the flock for opportunities and weaknesses. The ones that were given a 1/2-2 mile chase seldom attempted to try again. Resulting in a predator population that would live along side the flock with minimal predation.

There are the LGDs that guard from within the flock, and the breeds that actively guard from the perimeter. I feel that some operations or settings would be better suited with the Pyrenees types guarding from within. But in more open settings, or with a higher predator pressure, or with the larger predators,,, the perimeter type might be more effective. Or at least a combination of the two types.


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## thebaker (Dec 2, 2009)

Had a nice visit from them last-night so we're going too try an see if they come back around tonight. Got a neighbor that is setting up his stuff alone with his good old rifle or shotgun to see if we can get a kill tonight as they've been coming around almost ever night now. Guessing they maybe getting a sense of when our doe is due to kid. 

So we're all on coyote watch now since my doe is starting to slowly bag up some. Know she may not be due to kid just yet as most the time she kids at the very beginning of Jan still got a few weeks too go but never know.

Hubby is searching for big GP but we may not be able to get one til after the holidays.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Sometimes I see them listed on stockdogsforsale. That's a yahoo 
Email list you can subscribe to. They are sometimes advertised on this site too. http://edgefieldsheep.com/bb/index.php


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I have 2 boy maremma's. And they hate coyotes. When they come near the fence or even howl, my boys will hit the fence hard and bark with a vengence. Ziggy will go back and bark from the barn while Boomer takes the lead. Ziggy paces in front of the barn barking protecting his flock. I dont know how they figured out how to do this but it seems to come natural.


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## birdman1 (Oct 3, 2011)

be carful picking a gaurd dog lots of open range and no humans or good fence the turkish dogs are good but mean tward people.Great pineriese are good but still a good fence to keep them separate from people .Every boxer I'v seen is useless except for a pet .pit bulls are only good for junk yards . **** hounds travel to much .Personaly on my homestead with out sheep or goats.I have the old time mountian curs they fearlessy keep all varmits and stray dogs away from the area they bark but don,t bite humans .they watch out for me and there farm area but the will not stay out with livestock like a LGD will If they are raised out with them .They work good for me I had a lot of cyote ,stray dogs ,foxes,bobcats on top of ***** possum and weasle mink ,who would devour chickens even rabbits and raceing pigeons in cages wer'nt safe pigs small calf and colt were at risk till a week old corn or other goodies were imposable .not any more my faith ful inteligent curs put a stop to any raiding varmits .I have people who ride horses and hunt herbs on these wooded hills.so a LGD was out of the question they work for me .Carefully think of your situation type of livestock needing protection ect. Some people near here ues lamas or a donkey with sheep and seem happy these only fight canines after they are in there area and do nothing for a small varmit problem.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Dogs typically do not befriend coyotes. They know the difference. And a dog will act differently on a neighbor dogs territory than he will on his own. A dog will only protect his own property, or what he feels is his own (so he may protect the property of a close neighbor). The smell of the neighbor's dog is different from a coyote, and the body language of a visiting friend is different than that of a stalking animal.


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## thebaker (Dec 2, 2009)

Just got a cell call from DH an he's on his way to pick me up too go an check out a 2 yr old GP too protect our goats. We'll see how that goes. I'm very very picky on that. I know about 90% more then my hubby does on stuff but give him credit he tries his best. 

Next too answer any questions our fenced off field has cattle woven wire field fencing think it's called very strong fencing as it held up 4 200 ft trees which them was very heavy on just one part of the fencing. 

Next too answer the question about the box puppy she's for indoors not OUT.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I've had good luck using 48" woven wire with one strand of electric on top. Before running a hot wire I did have some problem areas depending on terrain leading up to the fence. 
You might ask how the dog is for fencing, and if he is prone to wandering. Another good thing to ask is how he is for vet checks, vaccinations, and grooming. Don't forget to post pictures after you get him.


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## thebaker (Dec 2, 2009)

What is wrong with people?

We went too look at the GP an we didn't get him. The dog was very aggressive toward me, DH an one of my kids.. No way in heck am I getting that dog. He's not even had shots at all. Was told 2 different ages. Said one time was 2 yrs an other 3..We will keep looking. Didn't want to be rude to the guy but my DH told him no way was we taking that dog an paying him 300 for a dog that could harm us or the livestock. :fussin: DH was very upset that this person lied to us on the cell phone. Oh well. 

So we're still on the lookout.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I'm afraid to tell you that "most" older LDG's are going to be protective especially if they have not been socialized. They dont know you. Mine would make you wet your pants, and I've tried to socialize them. But Boomer aint having it, unless you spend at least several hrs out near the barn with me. Now I've noticed that experienced dog people know how to treat my dogs which helps them (my dogs) relax and not be so aggressive and calm down to at least try to get to know them. 
I can only speak from my research and little experience, but I would get 2 boy puppies and raise them. Some people get real lucky and get a great older dog to protect their livestock. I'm just not a very lucky person. So I bought puppies at 8 weeks old and spent an enormous amount of the first 3 months helping them be excellant guard dogs. Now my boys are 12 months old, which makes them teenagers so I still on occassion have to get onto Ziggy, he gets excited when I let the sheep out of the stalls and he runs over to them and gets in their face and pounces. It was a lot of work on my part in the beginning but it is worth the sense of security and sleep I get now. (even though I still sleep with one eye open) just in case my boys need me 

If you choose that route, there are many experienced people on this thread that will help you step by step. I know they trained me to train my dogs. And everything they said worked.


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## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

coyotes -

Jumping a fence;
a coyote can easily jump a 4 foot fence grab a chicken and jump back over. When you put up a 5 foot fence, a coyote can jump 5' with a little effort and has a hard time getting back over with said chicken in mouth.. if he can't make it the chicken is still dead or now eaten and then he can make it over the 5' fence. If you put up a 6 foot fence, a coyote can NOT get over it.

Digging under a fence;
a coyote can easily dig under a fence. They can dig 24 inches down before giving up but usually only digs about 18" down before they give up.
When putting up fence, it is wise to lay fencing on the ground, now put up your vertical posts in the center of this field fencing (2' on each side of your fence) and then the fencing. Using Hog Rings and special pilers
http://www.louispage.com/miscellaneous/hog-rings-pliers
you now attach the fencing laying on the ground to the vertical fencing.
I personally purchase rolls of Field Fencing at 48" high and put on two pieces to create a 6 foot tall fence (2 feet overlaps and hog ringed together). In some places I have 48" field fencing and 3 rows of barbed wire.
I go back and shovel dirt over the edge of the fencing on the ground on each side.

Dogs, Coyotes, Wolves will go to the fence and dig right at the fence line. They are foiled because there is a barrier there. As long as they don't see the edge of the fencing on the ground, they won't dig and go away!

This is where dogs come in handy..especially Livestock Guardian Dogs. They are fearless and will go to the trouble spot.

This fence will stop canines but won't stop a snake, weasels, raccoons and similar varmints. Again, LGD's will take care of them. Just be sure your dogs are up on their rabies shots.

This fence will not stop a bear or any kind of cat. Mountain Lion, Bob Cat and neighbors cats! dogs are what you need, if you want a dog that barks, any dog will do but if you want a dog that shows bravery and fearlessness, a Livestock Guardian Dog is what you need.

Find a breeder that has had the puppies Temperament Tested. If they don't temperament test, then get familiar with puppy temperament testing. here is the link http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=395786&highlight=temperament+testing
You do not want an aggressive puppy nor do you want a shy puppy. No matter how cute! you can do some of the temperament testing techniques by spending a little time with the pups. If you know you want a male or female only look at them. Have the breeder separate the sex you are not interested in or if you have pointed out the shy and aggressive. Clap your hands, hold the puppy, and etc.

Having an older dog is great but with these breeds, best to get a pup and start the pup yourself. I believe in obedience training the puppy and socialize it. On a leash the dog should be as sweet and trusting as can be, off leash behind the fence... it needs to be protective! but I have people on my farm looking at livestock, my dogs need to be trusting enough that when I say 'go lay down' they do and leave us alone to conduct business. I also had children and needed the dogs to allow children in and to run and play without being attacked. That all came from socialization.


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