# Guard dog questions?



## mamato3 (Nov 1, 2008)

I know similar questions has been asked before but ever situation is different. Ok so with the rash of metal being stolen of people's property nearby. Might be a matter of time before they start breaking into houses. I want a dog that can protect the house and my livestock. My goats spend the winter locked in my yard anyway. Then in the summer there turned out into my dads cow pasture. And will have access to all 100 some odd acres. I have kids so a child friendly dog is a must. Right know i only have goats but someday want chickens again. 
Things im looking for in a dog.
Protect home and livestock, short hair i hate long haired dogs, kid friendly, not to much of a roamer (sp?)
I know everyone says Pyrenees but i hate there long coat, the dogs next door coats are so matted and nasty looking. I like the look of the Anatolians but herd there bad with kids.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

A dobermann. You will have to work with him to leave the livestock alone. He will stay near the house because a dobie is a companion dog. He will be very easy to train and very loyal to family members. He will learn who your friends are. He will protect his territory rather than the livestock per se. You can't really have one dog to protect both the livestock and the family unless the livestock is right in your yard.

Most dogs will protect your property because most of them will bark, and many will bite.A dobermann has been bred to be protective, but also obedient. They will bite, but unlike many dogs, can and should be trained to let go when told to.


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## Batt (Sep 8, 2006)

You need 2 dogs...1 for the home, 1 to guard the livestock. In my personal opinion, opinion only perhaps a German Shepard for the home, and a Great Pyrenees for the livestock. If the neighbors dogs are constantly matted and nasty looking they aren't GP, probably Commodores (sp?). Gp's fur is what is called self-cleaning. It will be dirty (if they have been rolling around in the dirt) one day but clean the next. Seems as if only the tail requires any attention. Ask my youngest DD about the 36 stitches in her head (when she was 6 y/o) how friendly dobermans are.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

Anatolians are not bad with kids.

Get a puppy raise it with the kids, do not just turn it out with the livestock having no interaction with people. Have the kids pet it, you groom it, clip it's nails and etc. The dogs who are not handled of any breed can be pests to kids and humans having no contact with them. 

Chickens may be a problem when the LGD is young, mine did get a few adolescent ones till they got older and learned those are off limits. 

I have heard Maremmas are good LGD too and not barky as Pyrs are, no clue how long their hair gets though. I have no experience with them just with Ana/Pyrs.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

mamato3 said:


> I know everyone says Pyrenees but i hate there long coat, the dogs next door coats are so matted and nasty looking. I like the look of the Anatolians but herd there bad with kids.


Anatolians aren't bad with their own kids.
You wouldn't find the type of dog you are looking for in a GP. They wouldn't chase people away from your house. You need a harder dog.


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

I would suggest a Central Asian Shepherd, Anatolian Shepherd, Kangal or Akbash.
They are all LGD breeds with a short coat and out of those 4 breeds the Central Asian Shepherd would in general be the most protective one towards 2 legged intruders.
But also the most expensive one, they are really pricey (usually the breeders ask anywhere between 1000 and 2000 $ for a puppy).
The Anatolians are probably the least expensive ones from the 4 breeds on that list..I've seen puppies from working (unregistered) Anatolians going for $ 300-400.

All of these breeds will be good with your own kids, but you will have to be extra careful when their friends come over to play.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

I also vote Dobe for your shorthaired, family protection breed. Most loyal, intelligent, and protective dog I have owned. They create and extreme bond with their family, and other animals that you claim as their family. They will act as a nanny to children and other small animals. They are a thinking breed, and will not blindly bite like many nervy Shepherd types.

Of course all of this is dependant on finding a properly bred dog from a breeder who knows what they are doing.

The most important part of raising a dog for protection is socializing it and building confidence. A protection dog that has not had this will have no confidence, no nerves and will be prone to fear biting and running if ever faced with a challenge. Most random dogs exhibit aggression/protection displays that are fear-based, but will never back up the bark when push comes to shove.


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## mamato3 (Nov 1, 2008)

Thanks guy i will look into all the breeds suggested. Right know if i get a dog it will be spring time. Im just looking to see if one might fit into our situation.


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

I'll throw in a vote for a couple of Kangals. They are amazing at evaluating threats, responding appropriately and are wonderful with kids. When relaxed folks don't seem to get spooked by them, but when they go into protection mode they definitely will impress. Early and intense socialization is important and won't make them any less protective. You may have to keep any chickens fenced away from them however.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

I would go for a Kangal or Akbash before a dobie or other non LGD breed. You would loose too much in livestock with a non LGD breed.


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## lexa (Mar 30, 2012)

I did not find any info about anatolians being bad with children, so I have them on my list of potential breeds.


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## Kits&Kids (Feb 10, 2012)

It sounds like you need a house dog and a lgd.They cant be both places at the same time.


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## mamato3 (Nov 1, 2008)

Thanks guys my yard is my pasture. I bought a half a acre from my dad. Tried to buy more but he said i could let the goats run with his cows. So whatever i get has to share the yard with my goats. My buck is usually allowed to have the yard in the summer. And then the does have the yard in the winter. Have not fully mowed in 3 yrs. I did see some Pyr/Akbash pups close by. But im not ready to get any tell next yr. I might still look at getting a Pyr/anatolian or pry/something. More then likely i will be getting a mix bred and it will be a puppy. 1 thing i thought of i need one that is easy to control im a push over type person lol. So a submissive bred or pup is what i need.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

None of the livestock guardian breeds are especially submissive. They are powerful and tend to do their own thing. And none of these dogs are going to be content in a 1/2 acre pasture. You really may be a lot better off with a smaller dog, like an English Shepherd or something. Although not official a LGD breed, they are excellent all-around farm dogs and are good watch dogs too. Get one from good working stock. They are usually very easy to train and easy to have around. 

My anatolians are excellent with kids, by the way. They are very, very gentle. I let one of them play with my new Amstaff puppy this weekend in a big pasture. Isaac was so sweet to Roxy. He ran slow so she could keep up and got down on the ground so she could play with him easier. He outweighs her by well over 100 pounds.


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## Laura Workman (May 10, 2002)

BarbadosSheep said:


> None of the livestock guardian breeds are especially submissive. They are powerful and tend to do their own thing. And none of these dogs are going to be content in a 1/2 acre pasture. You really may be a lot better off with a smaller dog, like an English Shepherd or something. Although not official a LGD breed, they are excellent all-around farm dogs and are good watch dogs too. Get one from good working stock. They are usually very easy to train and easy to have around.
> 
> My anatolians are excellent with kids, by the way. They are very, very gentle. I let one of them play with my new Amstaff puppy this weekend in a big pasture. Isaac was so sweet to Roxy. He ran slow so she could keep up and got down on the ground so she could play with him easier. He outweighs her by well over 100 pounds.


I have English Shepherds and definitely second this. We have NO predator problems on our one acre. The dogs are in the house with us, but have a dog door, so if they hear anything odd, they go check it out. They have chased coyotes off the property, treed raccoons at 2:00 a.m., and killed a trespassing oppossum 150 feet away from the house well after dark. I have no idea how they knew the oppossum was there, as he wasn't attacking anything, just crossing the property. (Sad) Plus, they help with herding and general stock control, and vermin control. Great dogs! I've thought about getting an LGD for our larger property (mostly because I really like dogs), but until we're there, I think I'd just be asking for trouble putting a dog like that on our one acre.


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## cybercat (Mar 29, 2005)

I will second the English Shepherd. You get all you asked for plus rodent control. But make sure it is purebred and not a cross. When you cross a herding breed you loose the stay at home instinct and they will wander off property. That goes for any herdinng breed BTW.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

mekasmom said:


> Anatolians aren't bad with their own kids.
> You wouldn't find the type of dog you are looking for in a GP. They wouldn't chase people away from your house. You need a harder dog.


I'm going to have to disagree about Pyrs not chasing people away from the house. We have two 8 month old puppies. They are awesome with all the other animals, kids and " guests".
But, I've heard from several people that when we aren't home, they will go after people. The electric company actually called about it. Seems the meter guy just let himself in the yard one day when I was gone. According to him, and a neighbor who saw it, these two just about had him for lunch. The neighbor says he had to jump the fence to get away. 6 feet of chain link! Apparently, they were throwing themselves at the fence after, trying to bite through it too.
So, I think a Pyr will defend hearth and home, as well as livestock. Just my opinion though.


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## Barn Yarns (Oct 7, 2012)

im not a fan of GP's myself. I have a Maremma. Maremmas are a much older breed than GPs. GPs are decendants of Maremmas if you will. He will not chase anyone away, but he does a heck of a job scaring people. Not many people like being barked at by a 100+# dog. He blends in very well with my hair sheep. GPs are bred to range out. I know folks that lost several sheep because the coyotes were able to lure the gp's away from the flock. 
check out lovetreefarms.com and eatlamb.com both raise awesome lgd's and are VERY VERY knowledgable in what they are breeding and why. my next one will come from one of them without any question in my mind. 

Im not sure why you are worried about a long haired dog. I realize you live down south, and dogs can be shorn if you wish. but their undercoat helps to keep them cool as well as warm.


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## mamato3 (Nov 1, 2008)

The English Shepherd sound perfect for what i need. Though i need to find one that has a low herding want. Which looks like some dogs prefer to herd some dont. Know to find some local breeders so i can look and have a choice if i do decide to get one next spring.


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## jolly rabbit (Apr 30, 2012)

Batt said:


> Ask my youngest DD about the 36 stitches in her head (when she was 6 y/o) how friendly dobermans are.


thats not very fair and I dont agree with that statement at all, cant judge a whole breed based on the actions of a few dogs.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

mamato3 said:


> 1 thing i thought of i need one that is easy to control im a push over type person lol. So a submissive bred or pup is what i need.


This probably won't work well. I'm not terribly familiar with LGD as we've never had them, but I don't think they are particularly submissive. I have had people and property type guard dogs much of my life, Dobermans, Rottweilers and German Shepherds and all of those breeds must be well trained, taught to respect people and be thoroughly socialized. The guard dog breeds tend to be tough, that is their job in life and what they have been bred for and if you let one of the them get by with things, you will have a dog that considers itself the alpha of the 'pack' and will not be controllable.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

mamato3 said:


> 1 thing i thought of i need one that is easy to control im a push over type person lol. So a submissive bred or pup is what i need.


If you want a personal protection dog, you do NOT want a submissive temperament, unless the extent of the guarding will be to bark to let you know when something is amiss. Most of the guarding breeds are strong-willed, stubborn, independent, and dominant. They need to be this way in order to be effective guardians. If you are not able to control this type of dog, I would look into getting a home security system rather than a personal protection dog.

As to the livestock guardian, that is a bit different than a personal protection dog. An LGD will certainly alert you to anything going on near the property that is out of the ordinary, but many LGD breeds are not human-aggressive. That doesn't mean they won't scare the pants off somebody! When a 100+ pound dog comes toward you barking, you just might turn around and go back the way you came. Some LGD breeds are more human-aggressive than others, but what you don't want is a liability.


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## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

Honestly, I think you are asking far too much from one dog. 
For your house, get a real security system, learn how to properly own and shoot a gun. Keep your house well lit and locked, don't advertise what you have.
For livestock, it doesn't matter that you don't like the look of the dog. A GP is a people lover, I would not recommend them if you want the dog to chase people off as well. Any dog can be good with kids, you need to train it. 
A Doberman is NOT a 'guard dog', they were bred for personal guard and now are bred for family life. They do NOT have the fur to be able to live outdoors.
A German shepherd would be better suited but no matter what, if you are not experienced with dogs, many different breeds, then any dog that is bred to protect, will be dangerous in your hands. You need to do more research than you think, go out and meet all these dogs and get first hand experience on how to handle them, train them, interact with them and how they do their job.


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## JPiantedosi (Apr 23, 2012)

Ive got a pair of 3/4 Sarplaninacx1/4GPs (sarps have a rep for being aggresive) that have made a pretty good addition to the place. they handle live stock duty, as well as keep folks off the property. they are ugly and big, and if I am not outside they will let you know you shouldn't be there. I dont know whether or not they would grab ahold of someone, but they certainly look and act like they would. I will say they are heck on ***** and stray dogs.

Both of these dogs are great with kids, but were socialized at an early age. I would certainly not consider either dog to be submissive, they deffinately have a mind of their own.

For your needs, you may want 2 dogs, a medium sized family oriented dog for your use in the house, and I would say roll the dice on a LGD breed and go with it.

Jim


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

Dobermans and English Shepherds are not LGD and should not be left unattended with the livestock, let alone live with them 24/7 like true LGD do. Nor will they go with or stay with the goats when they are allowed out to graze. 
Most LGD will not stay in a half acre fenced acre. 

So either you get a farm dog for the immediate area around your home and fence the half acre very well for the livestock. Or you get a true LGD and spend time filling in holes and wondering how the dog got out of the pen and have to keep putting them back in. 

I like Dobermans they are one of my 3 favorite breeds, any dog will bite it depends on how they were raised. I currently know two that are human aggressive dogs raised by two different people, one Rottie mix and one Japanese Chin and I do not think both breeds as a whole are unfriendly due to these two poorly raised dogs. Their owners are at fault and yes both of these dogs have bitten humans and they make excuses for it. Blame the owner not the breed or dog.


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## Bitterroot (Jul 26, 2012)

What are thoughts on rottweilers for something similar to this situation?


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

They will kill stock because they have prey drive. They will keep trespassers at bay though.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Bitterroot said:


> What are thoughts on rottweilers for something similar to this situation?


Some will chase/kill stock and some won't but you don't know which ones will or will not, not really. I raised/trained/showed them for 20 plus years and have had both types, some out of the same litter and all similar bloodlines.

I've had a couple that would retrieve baby animals or small livestock ... I had one years ago that would catch baby rabbits that got out of the cage and bring them back to the shelter, all he'd do was wash them. My last home bred Rott was good with livestock as well, he once brought back a duck that ran/flew over the bank and down to the creek ... 200 feet or more ... and I don't think he lost even a feather.

I've also had Rotts with a very strong prey drive and apparently some stock instinct that would try to chase/heel livestock and would definitely kill small livestock if they could.


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## mamato3 (Nov 1, 2008)

Ive been looking into English shepherds and i love them.The ones in interested in are the older lines, that are not full of border collie blood and want to herd all day. These dogs were bred to protect the home and have your back when out with the livestock. The dog will be house trained and go out with me when in doing my daily chores .


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## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

BarbadosSheep said:


> And none of these dogs are going to be content in a 1/2 acre pasture. You really may be a lot better off with a smaller dog, like an English Shepherd or something. Although not official a LGD breed, they are excellent all-around farm dogs and are good watch dogs too. Get one from good working stock. They are usually very easy to train and easy to have around.





Laura Jensen said:


> I have English Shepherds and definitely second this. We have NO predator problems on our one acre. The dogs are in the house with us, but have a dog door, so if they hear anything odd, they go check it out. They have chased coyotes off the property, treed raccoons at 2:00 a.m., and killed a trespassing oppossum 150 feet away from the house well after dark. I have no idea how they knew the oppossum was there, as he wasn't attacking anything, just crossing the property. (Sad) Plus, they help with herding and general stock control, and vermin control. Great dogs! I've thought about getting an LGD for our larger property (mostly because I really like dogs), but until we're there, I think I'd just be asking for trouble putting a dog like that on our one acre.





cybercat said:


> I will second the English Shepherd. You get all you asked for plus rodent control. But make sure it is purebred and not a cross. When you cross a herding breed you loose the stay at home instinct and they will wander off property. That goes for any herdinng breed BTW.


Since you all said that you like the English Shepherds...how are they with poultry? I am not worried about training, I know there will be challenges and I am counting on the socialization from my 3 - soon to be 4 - kids to help. But I am still concerned about poultry issues. Also, we are on a large property but most of it is farmed out so the actual areas where animals will be is limited to a little over an acre. Then we also have woods and a pond. So we will have to have invisible fencing installed to keep them from leaving the property.


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## arnie (Apr 26, 2012)

On a smaller acreage . If you can get a southern blackmouth cur . They are bred as farm dogs they are faithful to there family and its belongings having them killing livestock after being raised around them is unheard of .they have not been at the hand of akc breeders show rings or pet breeders to have lines with the instent bred out of them . My personal farm dogs are mountain curs though they don't like strangers they are't to mean except any varmit which are not alloued .I live in the middle of 500 acres mostly wooded with every varmit fron chipmunks to cougars and I have not lost a chicken or duck in long time the southern blackmouths are a little tougher on strangers and still fathful to there family . Dobermans ,rotwilers may have a good point as a personal gaurd dog with adults as are bulldogs but I would NEVER trust them alone with children and there friends.sorry to the dobe fans . The mt curs can be very protective if mine percive a threat to me they are do or die .my sister has a male in her suburban home who loves the neabours children but a robber would be eatin alive . In summery to gurd livstock in the pasture get a LGD for your home children and homestead livestock the curs they do there job instintivly .in a fenced yard ,with an adult supervised home or junk yard well i'v mentioned them above. A well bred german shepard with some training may fit your needs but like many popular pet breeds they have many indescrimant breeders .


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## peteyfoozer (Nov 23, 2012)

The size alone of an alerting LGD is pretty strong deterrent to most humans. Any LGD that is socialized should be not only good with, but protective of its 'family'. That includes its humans, goats, etc. There are short coated breeds that would probably fit your needs. I would not be comfortable having a dobie or rottie in the yard with livestock. I have owned both breeds and loved them, but we did have problems with kids that were not our own, and sometimes those breeds *can* become a liability. Of course, any dog that is protective of the kids can be a potential hazard to other kids if they rough house and the dog misunderstands that, even the LGD, so that is something to take into consideration. I currently have 2 Maremmas, both over 100 lb. They guard my sheep, chickens, and and orphan calves. In spite of the fact there are no children here, when my toddler grandkids come to visit once a year, the Maremmas immediately take charge of them and don't leave their sides the entire week they are here. I have to lock up the sheep because the dogs follow the kids right into the house. They have been amazing with the discretion they show and this is probably true of most LGD's.
An older LGD that has been guarding would have problems on a small piece of property, but people have them as service dogs so if the dog is raised in smaller area, they do ok. Hope you find what you are looking for! As far as 'submissive', they do not make good obedience dogs because they are bred to think independently. They require very little training, beyond the basics and some correction when they make mistakes. Bountifulfarms has an excellent DVD on raising and handling them. Their addy is listed in one of the stickies.


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## Laura Workman (May 10, 2002)

holliehmstd said:


> Since you all said that you like the English Shepherds...how are they with poultry? I am not worried about training, I know there will be challenges and I am counting on the socialization from my 3 - soon to be 4 - kids to help. But I am still concerned about poultry issues. Also, we are on a large property but most of it is farmed out so the actual areas where animals will be is limited to a little over an acre. Then we also have woods and a pond. So we will have to have invisible fencing installed to keep them from leaving the property.


Below is my English Shepherd Tanner enjoying a rawhide chew toy as a pup, after a few weeks training around poultry. He and my other ES spend their days freely roaming our acre of ground with our freely roaming poultry.

I'm concerned about the invisible fence idea for a couple of reasons. First, I've seen lots of dogs learn to escape invisible fences, to their detriment. Second, if your livestock isn't wearing an electric fence collar and is free to wander to and fro, on and off your property, and your dog is restricted to the property, how will your dog protect your livestock? I cannot imagine trying to train any dog, even an English Shepherd, to keep livestock on a property bordered by an invisible fence.


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## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Laura Jensen said:


> Below is my English Shepherd Tanner enjoying a rawhide chew toy as a pup, after a few weeks training around poultry. He and my other ES spend their days freely roaming our acre of ground with our freely roaming poultry.
> 
> I'm concerned about the invisible fence idea for a couple of reasons. First, I've seen lots of dogs learn to escape invisible fences, to their detriment. Second, if your livestock isn't wearing an electric fence collar and is free to wander to and fro, on and off your property, and your dog is restricted to the property, how will your dog protect your livestock? I cannot imagine trying to train any dog, even an English Shepherd, to keep livestock on a property bordered by an invisible fence.


We had a chicken killing dog - a rescued lab/pit mix - that would roam the whole property and never leave until we drove away and then he would follow us down the drive, watch us a ways and then head back home. That would be ideal for us. But we did not train him in that. He just worked on instinct. Since we have no leash laws here, we are not required to have an invisible fence or anything and the cow pasture will be fenced, but the remainder of the property will not be. Honestly, because we go to the pond frequently and we will have pigs in the woods, any fencing that did not surround the whole property would not work. We will have to work intensely on training. 

That is why I do not think that we need a large 100+ lb LSGD that would pursue a larger predator or threat off of the property. The livestock, especially the poultry/water fowl, cannot get off of the property. We live over 300 feet off of the road and the house is set back a little and up on a slope. The chickens stay in the back of the property and the ducks have the pond that is even further back through the woods. But still, we do prefer free roaming dogs. We just recently had an issue where a neighbor dog came and killed all of our chickens and I would not want to have our dog perceive a threat and follow it off the property.


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## sandsuncritters (Nov 18, 2011)

Arnie mentioned Curs, and I do have experience with them, fwiw to any of you.

Excellent dogs for home, family, and hunting! My uncles and cousins have hunted with them for years. They are family members. They know who and what belongs; and most importantly, what doesn't! 

They babysit the kids, companionsit the elderly, and approve (or not!) all visitors.

That said, their prey drive means that the chickens must be kept safely contained. Stray cats or dogs, rodents, and wildlife don't stand a chance against even one of them.

They've been riding companions on trails and working with cattle with no trouble with either horses or cattle.

LGD? Not in my book IMHO.
Homestead and family guardian? Only after due research into their line and face-to-face interaction.
Hunting and predation dogg? Absolutely!

Arnie, I'd be interested to know more about your Curs and their lines 

In His Love
Mich


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

I like American bulldogs as general purpose farm dogs


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## am1too (Dec 30, 2009)

Well I like my lab. very smart. Has chased the neighbors dogs back home. Has defended her home in my absence even to the feeder. She is great when with me and strangers.


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## Laura Workman (May 10, 2002)

holliehmstd said:


> We just recently had an issue where a neighbor dog came and killed all of our chickens and I would not want to have our dog perceive a threat and follow it off the property.


OK, so this strange dog comes onto your property and starts killing livestock. Your dog takes it on. The fight goes to the border of your property, and your dog gets shocked. How does that help him in his fight with the other dog? Even better, your chickens wander near your property line and your neighbor's dog chases them. Your dog is supposed to just stand and watch? I don't think I'd want to be your dog, regardless of breed, if you were going to deny me the capacity to do my job.


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## TamiJoyFarm (Oct 18, 2012)

mamato3 said:


> The English Shepherd sound perfect for what i need. Though i need to find one that has a low herding want. Which looks like some dogs prefer to herd some dont. Know to find some local breeders so i can look and have a choice if i do decide to get one next spring.


My best friend breeds English Shepherd and ships all over the United States. If you are interested in contacting her, PM me and I'll give you her telephone number.

I have been around her English Shepherds for the past 10 years and what a wonderful breed. Very protective of their family, keep critters away and stays home.

I, personally am a fan of a bigger dog and have had two Caucasian Mountain dogs (they don't stay home and are very expensive), rots (too protective) and now have a GP. The GP is by far my favorite, very personable, barks only when there is something to bark at and STAYS home, even when our other two rescue dogs dont. He has been raised with lots of traffic coming to the farm as we have a small CSA. He loves children!! 

Of interest, our GP is on 3.67 acres of land and seems quite content to just walk the perimeter and hang out. I am outside ALOT so he is with me and prefers my company to the other dogs.

I forgot to mention that my friend that breeds English Shepherds has one banty rooster that sleeps with her dogs.


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