# Vocational versus higher education



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-or-trade-school-its-a-tough-call-for-many-teens-1520245800

"Raelee Nicholson earns A’s in her honors classes at a public high school south of Pittsburgh and scored in the 88th percentile on her college boards.

But instead of going to college, Ms. Nicholson hopes to attend a two-year technical program that will qualify her to work as a diesel mechanic. Her guidance counselor, two teachers and several other adults tell her she’s making a mistake."


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

I guess it all depends why you want to do with your life. I had many teachers tell me the same thing when I went to trade school. I wound up getting a degree in the end but that was because I had the GI Bill. I make more working on equipment than I could using my degree. If I didn’t have the skill I do I would more than likely use my degree.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

You can read the entire article if you don't use the link.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

painterswife said:


> https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-or-trade-school-its-a-tough-call-for-many-teens-1520245800
> 
> "Raelee Nicholson earns A’s in her honors classes at a public high school south of Pittsburgh and scored in the 88th percentile on her college boards.
> 
> But instead of going to college, Ms. Nicholson hopes to attend a two-year technical program that will qualify her to work as a diesel mechanic. Her guidance counselor, two teachers and several other adults tell her she’s making a mistake."


She'll always be able to find a job. IMO, Ms. Nicholson is smarter than her grades and test scores indicate. The idiots are those who think a college degree is a sure fire ticket to a steady lifetime income.

I have a friend who is in her early twenties that wanted to become a diesel mechanic. She went through the training to become a firefighter, so she has moxie. The last time I checked she still didn't have a driver's license even though her boyfriend had the time between jobs to take her. She never got a shot at school. Now she's due to give birth to her first child in a week. I wish I could feel happy for her. Unfortunately I'm not sure about her future. I'm hoping my crystal ball is wrong.

My crystal ball envisions a much better future for Ms. Nicholson.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Of course teachers and guidance counselor would want her to go the college route. That's what they did, so they think it is the best way to go. Educators have been shoving this same BS down our kids throats for the last 30-40 years, that anyone who works with their back or gets their hands dirty at work every day is some sort of second class citizen. Truth to the matter is that a diesel mechanic is likely to make a far better living than the teacher advising her otherwise.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

My Dad finished with an 8th grade education and went to work to help provide for his family. 

After his military service during WW2, he became a plumber. He did very well. At one point he owned three duplexes and a lake cabin. He bought a new station wagon every two years.

Financially, Dad, with his 8th grade and vocational education, did much better than I have with my MS degree.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

I went to our state department of ed's annual teacher's convention this fall.
The keynote speaker first lined out where the job growth of the 21st century was going to be. 
HVAC, wind turbine, techs, mechanics, engineering, steamfitters, machinists, linemen, etc. 

He then spent the next 20 minutes giving the same old spiel about the importance of a 4year degree. 

I kept asking people if I was the only one to notice that except for engineering, the spiel was in direct contradiction to the jobs he had listed. They required, at MOST, a 2 year tech school. Wind turbine techs, for example, don't even require that much. A friend of mine runs a mid-sized wind farm here in Kansas and happily hires young people fresh out of the military (with or without related training), and even just high school. The company sends them to any relevant trainings they want them to have. 
Those kids are making well more than I am and I have multiple hours of post-grad coursework!


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

I have a college degree but the work that actually became my career is something that people usually get into with an associate’s, or even an apprenticeship.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


>


Thanks for finding, sharing this... I found it very educational!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

A snippet from the article linked below- 

"Some universities use this generational fear to enroll as many students as possible, simply because students keep the universities in business. Students, along with their loans, are the currency. In an attempt to appease stakeholders, far too many universities deceive students into acquiring federal and private loans for the purpose of learning subjects they could have learned at a much cheaper cost, or even for free with a library card and internet access. For-profit colleges are especially prone to use this ingrained generational fear to deceive people, as they are known for targeting disadvantaged and non-traditional students – many of whom live at very low income levels and are entirely dependent on additional funding to pay living expenses, such as rent and food. If you check out the marketing budgets for many for-profit colleges, found via their publicly released financial statements, you’ll see that a lot of money is being allocated for pushing this demand curve higher, and higher. The focus of these institutions is on the demand, not on a well-qualified and affordable supply."
http://www.chicagonow.com/college-scoop/2016/07/supply-and-demand-of-college-degrees-101/


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

I have worked at a rural vocational school(s) for 30 years.
Many of the students that come here are hands on learners and struggle academically. Some have labeled themselves as stupid.
It is so rewarding to see them excel in a trade. Their whole demeanor changes when they find their niche. It is life changing.
(Many have a starting pay that is higher than mine with a BA.!)


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Thanks for posting that! Why hasn't Trump recruited this man for Secretary of Education, or Secretary of Labor! Bahh, he probably has but Rowe was too intelligent to take the job.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

If I were to advise a young person these days, I would recommend the trades, pay your dues, and start your own business.

Going to college on auto pilot is stupid.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Quite surprised at some of the comments in this thread... people, there is one fact that cannot be ignored, the past stays in the past, it can never be returned to and nor can it anchor you into the future. Think of what is coming and what is happening and the direction things are going and plan to be involved in it. Trades, technology everything is changing... Besides, if you want doctors, nurses, engineers, there is no "on the job training or apprenticeship" for that.

Would it have made sense to learn to be a Steam Locomotive Designer in 1946 ? NO as Diesel-Electric was coming in and taking over... You have to think ahead, careers are not just "for the next 5 years" - well you hope not.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Steve_S said:


> Quite surprised at some of the comments in this thread... people, there is one fact that cannot be ignored, the past stays in the past, it can never be returned to and nor can it anchor you into the future. Think of what is coming and what is happening and the direction things are going and plan to be involved in it. Trades, technology everything is changing... Besides, *if you want doctors, nurses, engineers, there is no "on the job training or apprenticeship" for that.*
> 
> Would it have made sense to learn to be a Steam Locomotive Designer in 1946 ? NO as Diesel-Electric was coming in and taking over... You have to think ahead, careers are not just "for the next 5 years" - well you hope not.


once they “finish” school, that’s what they do for awhile. You don’t just graduate as an doctor and cut into someone the next day unsupervised. College can teach fundamentals and basics, you learn what’s important on the job.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Sometimes it's what you learn while living your life that turns out to be your very best "education".

It sounds like the girl in the OP has used her observational powers and mathematical ability to calculate the investment vs. returns of a college degree. And seeing that she's smart enough to get a degree if and when she needs one, I'd say she's more focused on the financial returns right now.
Naturally, if she can get a 4 yr. scholarship that is paid for, that might change her mind. But starting off a career with a large college debt, with the interest and collections that go along with it, she may be smarter than the guidance counselors giving her the opposite advice.


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

I have two masters degrees. BUT, I made more money with a house cleaning business than at any of the jobs resulting from my college degrees. However, I do not regret my college education, as it all is part of what makes me "ME." And, even in retirement, I still take classes, just to exercise my mind. I think people need to do what they enjoy, whether it requires college education or technical or on-the-job training. No one-size-fits-all.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Advice is worth what you pay for it imo. Just this morning on a real estate investing forum a guy asked a simple question about selling his house or renting it out. He got twenty different answers from twenty different peers who have decades of individual experience. Everyone's road is different. 

As to the diesel mechanic career, that is one that will pay for decades. Even if we go to automation someone still has to fix them. There was one mechanic here in town that worked at the same place I did and he was a certified Freightliner mechanic formerly from Atlanta. When they needed to train someone at the local dealer they paid him 75 an hour to teach the class and he picked the times.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

College degree doesn't guarantee a successful life. Work ethic is much more likely to guarantee that.

That said, the constant assumption that diesel mechanics are on intellectual par with, say, marine biologists, is just insulting. Different ballparks entirely.

Also, one you can keep doing until you're 85, because it won't break your back.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> College degree doesn't guarantee a successful life. Work ethic is much more likely to guarantee that.
> 
> That said, the constant assumption that diesel mechanics are on intellectual par with, say, marine biologists, is just insulting. Different ballparks entirely.
> 
> Also, one you can keep doing until you're 85, because it won't break your back.


That girl proves you wrong. Your need to be intellectually above others is so very telling.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

painterswife said:


> That girl proves you wrong. Your need to be intellectually above others is so very telling.


I don't need to be intellectually above others. There's lots of lots of college professors who are way further ahead of me in research than I could ever hope to be. I have a tremendous amount of respect for them because they're contributing to the overall cumulative knowledge of the natural world. By contrast, every truck you've ever worked on is just another cog in wheel of the economy. The effects of your actions will disappear in a matter of days, weeks, months, years if you're lucky. It means nothing and amounts to nothing. Knowledge and discovery is forever. Let that sink in for a bit.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Heritagefarm said:


> College degree doesn't guarantee a successful life. Work ethic is much more likely to guarantee that.
> 
> That said, the constant assumption that diesel mechanics are on intellectual par with, say, marine biologists, is just insulting. Different ballparks entirely.
> 
> Also, one you can keep doing until you're 85, because it won't break your back.


This is true.... Why would anyone want to insult a diesel mechanic by comparing them to a marine biologist? Good way to get something broke!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> I don't need to be intellectually above others. There's lots of lots of college professors who are way further ahead of me in research than I could ever hope to be. I have a tremendous amount of respect for them because they're contributing to the overall cumulative knowledge of the natural world. By contrast, every truck you've ever worked on is just another cog in wheel of the economy. The effects of your actions will disappear in a matter of days, weeks, months, years if you're lucky. It means nothing and amounts to nothing. Knowledge and discovery is forever. Let that sink in for a bit.


You are nothing without the knowledge, learning and actions of the those that have come before you and those that struggle with their minds or their hands now so that you can live your life. Let that sink in for a bit.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

I have never understood the sneering of one group at the other. The disdain for the educated and the shoulder chips on the vocation/trades/ workers. Neither can do without the other. My Dad built bridges, railways, tunnels, dams and roads and designed engines, guns and inertial guidance systems but he could not have done any of this without the workers and trades people and technicians and technologists who did the actual building and creating. Would have been a nice set of drawings to frame though. 

The only thing that I learned outside of school was to do what I wanted to do - that which made me happy and content with my life and what I had to do to make money. My husband had a very, very successful and profitable first career. He never liked it but every time he made up his mind to change he got a promotion with more money and a new challenge. He finally had enought and went back to school to do what he wanted. For 25 years he has been a really happy man and maybe this year he will earn almost what he used to earn in his first career.


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## hardrock (Jun 8, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> That said, the constant assumption that diesel mechanics are on intellectual par with, say, marine biologists, is just insulting. Different ballparks entirely.


HF, you gave me the laugh of the day, Thank You. LOLOLOL I have a BIL who is a Marine Biologist, U of Arizona and a brother who is a mechanic who expanded into parts stores, and I can assure you that you're right, it can be insulting, but not like you imagine. Thanks again!!!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Heritagefarm said:


> College degree doesn't guarantee a successful life. Work ethic is much more likely to guarantee that.
> 
> That said, the constant assumption that diesel mechanics are on intellectual par with, say, marine biologists, is just insulting. Different ballparks entirely.
> 
> Also, one you can keep doing until you're 85, because it won't break your back.


It's just as insulting to assume that all trades people are intellectually inferior and short sighted to assume that they work dead end jobs with no room for advancement. It may surprise you to find that a great many of them chose their occupation because it's something they truly enjoy and a great many own and operate successful businesses. 

College is great for those that want to attend but I'm pretty confident that all the marine biologists and plumbers in the US refused to work for a month, very few would miss the marine biologists.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Regardless of what Job / Career anyone decides upon there are a couple of very simple truths.

1) Find something that you LIKE to do ! If you like it and enjoy doing it, you will do well at it.
2) If you only chase the dollars and put everything else in 2nd or lower place, you will never be happy. Money pays bills but does not make you happy, and buying junk and having a debt is not happiness making.
3) If you get into something, thinking it will be good and you discover it's not what you expected or hasn't the potential you hoped, see #1. There is NOTHING worse than waking up everyday, looking at yourself in the mirror and asking yourself "why the hell am I doing this, I hate this, the people and bull with it" or any variation like that, it's time to change out, your at the point were you are doing no good for yourself, your family and your current employers.
4) If the work you have chosen takes a path which cuts off your family & quality times, consider what is more important for you & your family... Again, material stuff is meaningless, it's just "stuff" and replaceable, it will not give you happiness, no emotional support, nothing of value.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

East of Lansing MI, the middle class community of Williamston has a High School program that gets students on track by bussing them to Lansing Community College to take basic college clases to get them a head start towards a degree.
In nearby Webberville,MI, a middle and lower income community with a couple trailer parks. They bus students to a trade school.
These student's futures are dictated before they leave high school.
After 50 years of discounting occupations like plumbers, electricians, mechanics and welders, trade schools are gaining favor. About time.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

emdeengee said:


> I have never understood the sneering of one group at the other. The disdain for the educated and the shoulder chips on the vocation/trades/ workers. Neither can do without the other. My Dad built bridges, railways, tunnels, dams and roads and designed engines, guns and inertial guidance systems but he could not have done any of this without the workers and trades people and technicians and technologists who did the actual building and creating. Would have been a nice set of drawings to frame though.
> 
> The only thing that I learned outside of school was to do what I wanted to do - that which made me happy and content with my life and what I had to do to make money. My husband had a very, very successful and profitable first career. He never liked it but every time he made up his mind to change he got a promotion with more money and a new challenge. He finally had enought and went back to school to do what he wanted. For 25 years he has been a really happy man and maybe this year he will earn almost what he used to earn in his first career.


Very good post we need more people like you. It's not good to sneer at the educated nor to look down at the tradesman. I think the reason I react so much here is because I always feel like I'm being sneered at for getting a degree, especially since it's usually the degree-less doing the sneering.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

It's hard to see yourself, sometimes. But you've become just like the people you despise.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> Very good post we need more people like you. It's not good to sneer at the educated nor to look down at the tradesman. I think the reason I react so much here is because I always feel like I'm being sneered at for getting a degree, especially since it's usually the degree-less doing the sneering.


Your posts sneer at those you judge because of their chosen employment or education. You equate it with their intellect. I don't understand how you can't see that general line flowing through your posts. I don't see anyone putting down those seeking education.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

painterswife said:


> Your posts sneer at those you judge because of their chosen employment or education. You equate it with their intellect. I don't understand how you can't see that general line flowing through your posts. I don't see anyone putting down those seeking education.


I don't equate employment, education, or intellect. They're often related, but they're not the same thing. However, you would expect someone who can get through a mechanics course will only _require _a certain intellectual brunt. And you would also expect that becoming a nuclear physicist will require a different level of intellectual brunt. There's nothing wrong with admitting that. I'm pretty sure I'm not actually smart enough to become a nuclear physicist. But that's top tier science. Knowing our weaknesses allows us to focus on our strengths. Intellectual shaming is embedded in most of your posts, even your OP here.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

My senior, who's on the Quiz Bowl team, was voted Programmer for his robotics team and went to space camp, twice, has diesel mechanic on his list of chosen occupations.

All of a sudden, now he's not intelligent?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> I don't equate employment, education, or intellect. They're often related, but they're not the same thing. However, you would expect someone who can get through a mechanics course will only _require _a certain intellectual brunt. And you would also expect that becoming a nuclear physicist will require a different level of intellectual brunt. There's nothing wrong with admitting that. I'm pretty sure I'm not actually smart enough to become a nuclear physicist. But that's top tier science. Knowing our weaknesses allows us to focus on our strengths. Intellectual shaming is embedded in most of your posts, even your OP here.


My OP was to show that profession is not defined or limited by intellect. I don't judge someone's worth by their intellect either. A genius who picks lettuce for a living is as important as a mechanic with an highschool education. I would far rather someone be happy with their path in life than in misery because they were pushed to something because society thinks they need an education. Higher education is only worthwhile to you if that is what you want.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

painterswife said:


> My OP was to show that profession is not defined or limited by intellect. I don't judge someone's worth by their intellect either. A genius who picks lettuce for a living is as important as a mechanic with an highschool education. I would far rather someone be happy with their path in life than in misery because they were pushed to something because society thinks they need an education. Higher education is only worthwhile to you if that is what you want.


It's worthwhile to me because it's what I need to do to be the most effective version of my possible for protecting the environment and making things better for people.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> It's worthwhile to me because it's what I need to do to be the most effective version of my possible for protecting the environment and making things better for people.


That is great. I have no problem with your choice. I do have a problem with how you judge others intellects, employment choices and lives. A person may choose to dig ditches, it does not make them less than you. Your posts come across that way.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

ErinP said:


> My senior, who's on the Quiz Bowl team, was voted Programmer for his robotics team and went to space camp, twice, has diesel mechanic on his list of chosen occupations.
> 
> All of a sudden, now he's not intelligent?


Looks that way. Maybe he should have been a marine biologist instead?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Heritagefarm said:


> Very good post we need more people like you. It's not good to sneer at the educated nor to look down at the tradesman. I think the reason I react so much here is because I always feel like I'm being sneered at for getting a degree, especially since it's usually the degree-less doing the sneering.


If you’d really been paying attention, you’d have noticed that it’s not a case of “the degree-less” sneering at you. You even ran a poll, and that poll showed that the folks on here are at least on-par with the genpop in terms of degrees.

...and people aren’t sneering at you. They take issue with your constant comments that indicate that you measure those around according to some intellectual yardstick (one that you drafted out, yourself), and that you believe you’re at the far end of it looking down at the rest of us.

Seriously, think about your history here, for a minute. There was even a time in the recent past (so recent that you can’t possibly have forgotten it) that you were claiming to have a superiority in higher education, when, at that very moment, you were “equal” to, or below, something like 90% of the membership here.

You’re a kid working on his bachelor’s, and no one here would look down on you for that. The conflict arises when you cast yourself as superior to the rest of us for what you assume you will do, compared to what little you think the rest of us have done.




My plan, at your stage in life, was to keep studying until my doctorate, and then write, and teach others how to write and how to read others’ writing. In the lull between graduate and post-graduate study, I landed a really cool career in a trade that I had essentially apprenticeship-experience in.

Fate kept me on that track, and I’ve had a great and fulfilling professional life. I’ve earned enough to own (or reasonably soon own) a better piece of land than anyone in my family has for generations. I’ve been all over the world; something like 27 countries, at last count.

...and I still write. I still write about what I read. My intellect and potential didn’t change when I made my career decisions. It just focused in a different direction.

Your fault is that you suffer the limited perspective of youth. You’re going to realize that someday, and it’s going to hit you like a ton of bricks.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> I think the reason I react so much here is because I always feel like I'm being sneered at* for getting a degree*, especially since it's usually the degree-less doing the sneering.


The way your are treated here is a direct result of the way you *act* here.
If "Woolie Face" was still here he'd tell you "DBAT".


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Heritagefarm said:


> Very good post we need more people like you. It's not good to sneer at the educated nor to look down at the tradesman. I think the reason I react so much here is because I always feel like I'm being sneered at for getting a degree, especially since it's usually the degree-less doing the sneering.


You’re right. There _is_ definitely an element that sneers at education. Ive noticed it too. Sometimes it’s marching rampantly through this site, and sometimes it’s not.
However, on the flip side of that, you need to remember that getting an undergrad degree really is not that big of a deal. It’s hard work, yes, (and it can be an expensive luxury that shuts a lot of people out) but it has nothing whatsoever to do with intelligence. 
In fact, I would venture to guess that the vast majority of people with a bachelors are of perfectly average intelligence.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

ErinP said:


> You’re right. There _is_ definitely an element that sneers at education. Ive noticed it too. Sometimes it’s marching rampantly through this site, and sometimes it’s not.
> However, on the flip side of that, you need to remember that getting an undergrad degree really is not that big of a deal. It’s hard work, yes, (and it can be an expensive luxury that shuts a lot of people out) but it has nothing whatsoever to do with intelligence.
> In fact, I would venture to guess that the vast majority of people with a bachelors are of perfectly average intelligence.


I honestly have no desire to impress you or anyone else here.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

The ease with which everyone here puts down the educated and equates them with the educated is deeply problematic. In many of your minds, if someone is making $100k a year with a biology degree, or $100k a year with a mechanics degree, there's no difference between them. That's if income is the one and only metric you use to categorizer success. There are many other metrics of success: Happiness with workplace atmosphere. Quality of workplace attributes. Level of respect and status. Ability to contribute to future generations. 

What people don't seems to understand is the basis for getting an education. It isn't so you can get a super high paying job in the future, although that often a consequence. The goal to to craft a well educated, sophisticated, and enriched mind. The fires of democracy, die in the presence of ignorance. The light of progress burns out, in the presence of apathy. 

What one gains in an education can't be measured, not really. It's knowing that there are people out there who don't think anything like you. It's knowing that there are ways of life, and thinking, and doing things that you would never, could never, consider. It's gaining a greater tolerance and appreciation for all the different flavors of humans out there. Maybe you'll want to come to know them, talk to them, see things from a different angle. 

There's never just your way. There's never just my way. 

But the general attitude here is that there's only one way. You won't see any other perspectives, you won't learn, your won't grow, you won't progress. You are scared of change, you are scared of _life,_ you are scared to DEATH of actually experiencing this existence, of which you've only got _one chance at. That's _why you have to put educated people down. Because truly educated people are out there, experiencing the world, and learning and growing and _changing _every single day, and that scares the ever living crap out of you.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Heritagefarm said:


> The ease with which everyone here puts down the educated and equates them with the educated is deeply problematic. In many of your minds, if someone is making $100k a year with a biology degree, or $100k a year with a mechanics degree, there's no difference between them. That's if income is the one and only metric you use to categorizer success. There are many other metrics of success: Happiness with workplace atmosphere. Quality of workplace attributes. Level of respect and status. Ability to contribute to future generations.
> 
> What people don't seems to understand is the basis for getting an education. It isn't so you can get a super high paying job in the future, although that often a consequence. The goal to to craft a well educated, sophisticated, and enriched mind. The fires of democracy, die in the presence of ignorance. The light of progress burns out, in the presence of apathy.
> 
> ...


Then stop doing the reverse and you will get less grief on here. 

I look at it like this. Lets say an accountant goes for 4 years and learns his trade. An auto mechanic works for 4 years to learn his trade. They both have 4 years of learning. Thats 4 years of something they didnt have when they started. Neither is greater or lessor skills. You can't compare the two because they are different skills. 

A doctor goes for ten years. A master electrician has to learn on the job for min. ten years. At least in Texas anyway. Why do you assume the Dr. is a better person intellectually? If that's not the case I apologize but it sure seems that way.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Nope. Formal education is great but it is not the only path to the destination you seek. You will understand that when you are older.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Kiddo, Im a teacher. My first classroom was 21yrs ago. Ive got a number of post grad hrs, (but no Masters because I have this bad habit of taking classes that are useful in my classroom but arent following a specific track.)
I was raised by one of the most respected attorneys in the state, and a Teacher of the Year. My brother is a senior software engineer with Google and has a Masters from MIT.
I promise, I believe in the value of education. I could write the Admissions Office's pitch, too 

But all of the above is why Im fairly confident that most people with Bachelors degrees are usually of average intelligence.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

The fact that someone fixes truck engines all day doesn’t preclude them from going home to read Shakespeare just as the fact that someone studies fish otoliths in a lab all day is no guarantee they don’t go home and watch Rosanne reruns on Netflix every night.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

PS--all of those benefits you mention are indeed invaluable. But you can get them other ways, too. Military service for example. (And yes, you can serve with a fairly low risk of getting shot at)


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Heritagefarm said:


> Very good post we need more people like you. It's not good to sneer at the educated nor to look down at the tradesman. I think the reason I react so much here is because I always feel like I'm being sneered at for getting a degree, especially since it's usually the degree-less doing the sneering.


I understand what you have written and without throwing you under the bus, I think that people who do no harm to others should not look down on those who also do no harm to others, that's the dividing line in my book. It is quite easy for me to understand, I would seek to welcome you into this fold....


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

I got a Tech School Certificate in the following disciplines: [we can call it that - Right?]
Air Conditioning and Refrigeration
Residential Electricity
Welding, stick, gas, Tig and Mig
Drafting 
and then an AS in Computer engineering geared towards Robotics.
Then I enrolled in the school of life bringing that which I had learned to bear upon the thoughts of becoming rich.
I have hundreds of certificates that tell others that I know this or that. Most of those certificates mean absolutely nothing unless I am able to articulate my understandings of said subject. For the most part, I was able to do so.

Then came the downfall in 2008, my position was eliminated by a bean counter. It took over 1500 applications, a number of phone interviews and only a handful of face to face interviews to understand that the pretty papers that I brought to bear had nothing in support for me because there were younger people available for hire. Not only that but because the programmers and server support dudes lost their jobs when the support mechanism was shifted to other countries who charged a lot less, those persons were also in the same line and were fighting against me for the position.

I use all of those things in my day to day life and found one thing for certain, there is only one process to troubleshoot anything. The process is rock solid and all that is required is for you to understand the operation of that which you are troubleshooting, the process is the same in every instance... Did it ever work? When was the last time it worked? What changed since it stopped working? If this information does not present a suggestion for a resolution then, using that information, all that is necessary is to seek which requirement to operate is missing.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

mreynolds said:


> Then stop doing the reverse and you will get less grief on here.
> 
> I look at it like this. Lets say an accountant goes for 4 years and learns his trade. An auto mechanic works for 4 years to learn his trade. They both have 4 years of learning. Thats 4 years of something they didnt have when they started. Neither is greater or lessor skills. You can't compare the two because they are different skills.
> 
> A doctor goes for ten years. A master electrician has to learn on the job for min. ten years. At least in Texas anyway. Why do you assume the Dr. is a better person intellectually? If that's not the case I apologize but it sure seems that way.


Becoming an electrician is a skill. So is become a doctor. Neither of those actually make one enlightened.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> Becoming an electrician is a skill. So is become a doctor. Neither of those actually make one enlightened.


Does education make you enlightened?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Heritagefarm said:


> Becoming an electrician is a skill. So is become a doctor. Neither of those actually make one enlightened.


Neither does holding a degree.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Does education make you enlightened?


That would be one of the basic definitions of educated.
However, “education” isnt necessarily something you have to pay tuition to aquire.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

ErinP said:


> That would be one of the basic definitions of educated.
> However, “education” isnt necessarily something you have to pay tuition to aquire.


 I don't think that is HFs definition of enlightened. His definition seems to require higher education.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

painterswife said:


> I don't think that is HFs definition of enlightened. His definition seems to require *higher education*.


Then you really haven't been paying attention to anything I've ever said. How am i supposed to interpret that as anything except insulting?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> Then you really haven't been paying attention to anything I've ever said. How am i supposed to interpret that as anything except insulting?


Maybe then you can explain so I do understand what you mean better.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Heritagefarm said:


> Then you really haven't been paying attention to anything I've ever said. How am i supposed to interpret that as anything except insulting?


I'm not quite sure how that can be interpreted as insulting? It's just a comment explaining how your posts have been interpreted by others. I'm not real sure of your definition of "enlightenment" myself. Me? Enlightenment has nothing whatsoever to do with formal education or intelligence levels. To me it's far more about understanding at a base level.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> Then you really haven't been paying attention to anything I've ever said. How am i supposed to interpret that as anything except insulting?


The thing I'm referring to is _sophistication. _More specifically, it is sophistication in the sense of the German translation _bildung. _Here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildung



> _*Bildung*_ (German: [ˈbɪldʊŋ], _"education, formation, etc."_) refers to the German tradition of self-cultivation (as related to the German for: creation, image, shape), wherein philosophy and education are linked in a manner that refers to a process of both personal and cultural maturation. This maturation is described as a harmonization of the individual's mind and heart and in a unification of selfhood and identity within the broader society, as evidenced with the literary tradition of _Bildungsroman_.
> 
> In this sense, the process of harmonization of mind, heart, selfhood and identity is achieved through personal transformation, which presents a challenge to the individual's accepted beliefs. In Hegel's writings, the challenge of personal growth often involves an agonizing alienation from one's "natural consciousness" that leads to a reunification and development of the self. Similarly, although social unity requires well-formed institutions, it also requires a diversity of individuals with the freedom(in the positive sense of the term) to develop a wide-variety of talents and abilities and this requires personal agency. However, rather than an end state, both individual and social unification is a process that is driven by unrelenting negations.


Education is part of it. Only only part. Education by itself doesn't do much. One must also internalize, reflect, and _mature_.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Some students are better suited to a vocational training program while others are better suited to degree programs.
Some take vocational programs in high school, technical pre degree diploma programs in junior college and get a job and then get their degree in night classes on their employer's tuition reimbursement program. Yes tuition reimbursement programs still exist. The grandson of one of the program engineers I worked under graduated with a vocational certificate from high school in 2000 and took an entry level position at a plant in his field and attended junior college night classes until 2006 to get his 2 year diploma.

He paid his tuition with his overtime pay until he qualified for tuition reimbursement and began pursing his bachelor's of science degree and now he is still taking night classes and getting paid and gets better raises as he advances his education and has never had any student loans hanging over he and his wife's heads.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Heritagefarm said:


> The thing I'm referring to is _sophistication. _More specifically, it is sophistication in the sense of the German translation _bildung. _Here:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildung
> 
> ...


That sounds a lot like what I grew up knowing as being "a grown up". It does require a fair amount of time to sort out oneself and get comfy with who we really are. Some never quite get there.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Geez, another thread with bickering and jabbing at each when completely unnecessary... seriously people... doe sit always have to end up like that ? Makes participating in a "discussion" an "exchange of ideas & thoughts" quite difficult if not possible. For those of you with too much time on your hands and such negativity that you have to bicker over silly things - start a freakin Garden, get planting veggies, go do some yard work, do something that will make you feel good, an accomplishment, something positive that will contribute to your quality of life (gardens are good for that and they are a peaceful thing to occupy oneself with).

Bottom Line, there are much bigger problems & issues in the world that need resolution and we have small problems locally that we have to work on...


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Steve_S said:


> Geez, another thread with bickering and jabbing at each when completely unnecessary... seriously people... doe sit always have to end up like that ? Makes participating in a "discussion" an "exchange of ideas & thoughts" quite difficult if not possible. For those of you with too much time on your hands and such negativity that you have to bicker over silly things - start a freakin Garden, get planting veggies, go do some yard work, do something that will make you feel good, an accomplishment, something positive that will contribute to your quality of life (gardens are good for that and they are a peaceful thing to occupy oneself with).
> 
> Bottom Line, there are much bigger problems & issues in the world that need resolution and we have small problems locally that we have to work on...


Your judgement adds to the discussion. Thanks for participating.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

It appears someone is taking another philosophy course and has discovered another discipline which he feels the need to come here and discuss to demonstrate his intelligence to the proletariat. Now I get it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> One must also internalize, reflect, and _*mature*_.


*Do* that and you'll find yourself being treated with more respect.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

While certain careers may experience more status in our society, I don't believe the individuals have any more intrinsic value than another.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I can't tell if you are purposely obtuse or simply taunting others for some larger sense of self worth.

“A true genius admits that he/she knows nothing.” 
― Albert Einstein

“I imagine that the intelligent people are the ones so intelligent that they don't even need or want to look 'intelligent' anymore.” 
― Criss Jami


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Heritagefarm said:


> College degree doesn't guarantee a successful life. Work ethic is much more likely to guarantee that.
> 
> That said, the constant assumption that diesel mechanics are on intellectual par with, say, marine biologists, is just insulting. Different ballparks entirely.
> 
> Also, one you can keep doing until you're 85, because it won't break your back.


Why can’t a mechanic be smarter than a marine biologist? I know several mechanics that have retired between 62-67, everything still works on them. If a marine biologist is so dang smart why do they have other people fix their boats, or run equipment for them all the time? Is it because it’s beneath them or because they probably don’t know how? You really think that a piece of paper makes someone smarter than another? That settles it then, I am far more intelligent than you, you can quit your ramblings now.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Heritagefarm said:


> I don't equate employment, education, or intellect. They're often related, but they're not the same thing. However, you would expect someone who can get through a mechanics course will only _require _a certain intellectual brunt. And you would also expect that becoming a nuclear physicist will require a different level of intellectual brunt. There's nothing wrong with admitting that. I'm pretty sure I'm not actually smart enough to become a nuclear physicist. But that's top tier science. Knowing our weaknesses allows us to focus on our strengths. Intellectual shaming is embedded in most of your posts, even your OP here.


Your probably not smart enough to be a diesel Mechanic either!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

roadless said:


> While certain careers may experience more status in our society, I don't believe the individuals have any more intrinsic value than another.


I've noticed that "status" is normally associated with money. Elizabeth Taylor may well have been correct.... "Money is the best deodorant in the world." 
I personally think that people are just people no matter how much money they have or don't have. It's what a person does with their talents that counts. Offering the fallen a hand up counts, teaching the ignorant how to feed themselves counts, being able to love the "unlovable" counts. Yeah, I know, that's being judgemental but it's who I am.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> I think the reason I react so much here is because I always feel like I'm being sneered at for getting a degree, especially since it's usually the degree-less doing the sneering.


That is not the reason that you receive the sneering.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Farmerga said:


> That is not the reason that you receive the sneering.


True, there are some here that just like to sneer. They need no reason. I am all for learning myself. Never got a "degree" for it but I have learned quite a bit in 66 years and keep right on learning everyday.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> The thing I'm referring to is _sophistication. _More specifically, it is sophistication in the sense of the German translation _bildung. _Here:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildung
> 
> ...


I don't think you speak German and therefore don't understand the essence of the word. It started as a Prussian word ( my heritage on my mothers side) You are leaning on your book learning and others interpretation of the word and movement.

Bildung literally translated is education or formation. Literal does not explain it well though. It is more a ripening or the process where you grown and mature as a person. It includes intellect, skills, emotional maturity, spirituality and the process of learning as you move from child to adult. It continues through out your life as you gather and add pieces to the puzzle and grow your wisdom. Formal education is one small part of that process. Very small. It really only adds value to the process if it teaches you how to learn and gather and is not judged by what you gather.

Like someone said earlier "Education is what remains after one has forgotten what one has learned in school."

This thread was not about this. It was about the fact that higher education while worthwhile is not the gold standard for every individual and their future employment. Many here learned the lesson of self education early in life and did not require a degree to make that part of their journey.


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## Barefootminis (Apr 2, 2011)

Responding to any other way than college. What can I say? Thank God the pendulum swung. Thank God for the influence of Mike Rowe. I homeschool. What do I tell my kids about math? The quickest way to the right answer is the proper way. The same goes for life.

If you're a genius but don't want to waste your time and money at university? Go for that career school. Get a good job. Start living.

I decided I was going to get married, have babies, and have a farm on the side. I'm not rich, but I'm happy and my boys have me available whenever they need me. I'm a success in my own right.

Success is a different definition for everyone. It's not necessarily defined by 6 figures.

Whatever way can help a person reach their goal, do what they want, and stay out of life-sucking debt. Go for it.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Bildung is also your spiritual journey. Something that many here work towards every day in the personal and religious life. I notice that you HF make a lot of digs about HT members being some what insulated and country, if that word works. That is my impression when you say that you can talk to and do talk to people of all walks of life.

Maybe you should instead ask more about the people you are talking to then assuming you know who they are because they like to work with their hands. It takes a lot of self reflection to study and learn from their religion.

For example. Did you know that I grew up in a multi- national home? I am white from white parents but I grew up in a Japanese home with Buddhist grandparents. Buddhist offerings and ceremonies were a regular occurrence in our home. We did all the Buddhist funeral traditions for my grandparents ( they go on for years). We added Chinese, Jewish to that by marriage as well as native American. My best friends in school were Sikh. I spent much of my youth attending Sikh religious events and celebrations with my friends. Add into that my Prussian/German Mennonite grandparents and I think I have a good variation of people, culture and religion in my life. I am far from unique here on HT.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Years ago there were a lot of earth science jobs in the government that you could qualify for in two ways, A 4 year degree or 4 years of experience.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

I think people are starting to really relook at a college education. Let’s face it, Colleges and Universities are BIG BUSINESS. They have advertised well and make it so that most folks feel that they can only get ahead with a 4 year degree. I applaud this young lady for finding a career path that works for her rather then follow the rest of the sheep to a 4 year school where they will be in debt and fighting with the thousands of other kids with the same degree. I found through my career as a recruiter that college professors are CLUELESS when it comes to preparing kids for a job. Most struggle with simple things like completing an application or doing a resume. They tell them “with this business degree you are ready to manage.” Yeah, no.....you are prepared to start at the bottom and work your way up while paying your huge college loan. I did the non-traditional method of college. Was married with kids before I started, finished my bachelors, then did my Master’s because my company paid for it. Now I work in a career that has nothing to do with my degrees but at least I do not have any debt.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Other than using my degree to get past lazy H.R. people who won't even look at an resume that doesn't have at least a 4 year degree (and most let computers look at the resumes). I don't use anything in my job from my BS degree. Everything I use daily I learned on the jobs I have had. 

Luckily I was smart and though it took me some extra time to earn it, and I lived at home while I did working part time, I paid as I went and graduated with zero debt,


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Heritagefarm said:


> College degree doesn't guarantee a successful life. Work ethic is much more likely to guarantee that.
> 
> That said, the constant assumption that diesel mechanics are on intellectual par with, say, marine biologists, is just insulting. Different ballparks entirely.
> 
> Also, one you can keep doing until you're 85, because it won't break your back.


When you need to get a load of groceries cross country, do you want a diesel mechanic working on your truck or a marine biologist? Which of them really adds value to the world?


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

My daughter in-law is a Marine biologist and works for the Audubon Society making very little financially. But the job gives her lots of freedom that helps them with raising their children.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Heritagefarm said:


> The ease with which everyone here puts down the educated and equates them with the educated is deeply problematic. In many of your minds, if someone is making $100k a year with a biology degree, or $100k a year with a mechanics degree, there's no difference between them. That's if income is the one and only metric you use to categorizer success. There are many other metrics of success: Happiness with workplace atmosphere. Quality of workplace attributes. Level of respect and status. Ability to contribute to future generations.
> 
> What people don't seems to understand is the basis for getting an education. It isn't so you can get a super high paying job in the future, although that often a consequence. The goal to to craft a well educated, sophisticated, and enriched mind. The fires of democracy, die in the presence of ignorance. The light of progress burns out, in the presence of apathy.
> 
> ...


What an intellectual snob you are, and the sad thing is you don't even realize it.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> That sounds a lot like what I grew up knowing as being "a grown up". It does require a fair amount of time to sort out oneself and get comfy with who we really are. Some never quite get there.


And some think they are there already while insulting everyone that didn't do things exactly like they did. (not talking about you YH)


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

In another forum I frequent, there is a discussion about the biological basis of moral and ethical behavior. 
There is another discussion about the spontaneous release of dimethyltryptamine in the pineal gland of lab rats at the instant of death, and how that correlates to the NDE memory of humans who nearly died.

However, that forum has absolutely nothing to do with homesteading, regardless of how many times I try to insinuate the subject.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Heritagefarm said:


> College degree doesn't guarantee a successful life. Work ethic is much more likely to guarantee that.
> 
> That said, the constant assumption that diesel mechanics are on intellectual par with, say, marine biologists, is just insulting. Different ballparks entirely.
> 
> Also, one you can keep doing until you're 85, because it won't break your back.






Seems you do not know how little your back is used in most trades today. And ones job does not make one a intellectual.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mnn2501 said:


> What an intellectual snob you are, and the sad thing is you don't even realize it.


He knows it.
It's mostly an act.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Redlands Okie said:


> Seems you do not know how little your back is used in most trades today. And ones job does not make one a intellectual.


Ain’t no lie, that’s why my truck has a 10k pound crane on it.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Steve_S said:


> Geez, another thread with bickering and jabbing at each when completely unnecessary... seriously people... doe sit always have to end up like that ? Makes participating in a "discussion" an "exchange of ideas & thoughts" quite difficult if not possible. For those of you with too much time on your hands and such negativity that you have to bicker over silly things - start a freakin Garden, get planting veggies, go do some yard work, do something that will make you feel good, an accomplishment, something positive that will contribute to your quality of life (gardens are good for that and they are a peaceful thing to occupy oneself with).
> 
> Bottom Line, there are much bigger problems & issues in the world that need resolution and we have small problems locally that we have to work on...


It's still too cold for gardening for most of the people on here. The bickering is a hobby. It usually tapers off as the northern hemisphere thaws out.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

painterswife said:


> Bildung is also your spiritual journey. Something that many here work towards every day in the personal and religious life. I notice that you HF make a lot of digs about HT members being some what insulated and country, if that word works. That is my impression when you say that you can talk to and do talk to people of all walks of life.
> 
> Maybe you should instead ask more about the people you are talking to then assuming you know who they are because they like to work with their hands. It takes a lot of self reflection to study and learn from their religion.
> 
> For example. Did you know that I grew up in a multi- national home? I am white from white parents but I grew up in a Japanese home with Buddhist grandparents. Buddhist offerings and ceremonies were a regular occurrence in our home. We did all the Buddhist funeral traditions for my grandparents ( they go on for years). We added Chinese, Jewish to that by marriage as well as native American. My best friends in school were Sikh. I spent much of my youth attending Sikh religious events and celebrations with my friends. Add into that my Prussian/German Mennonite grandparents and I think I have a good variation of people, culture and religion in my life. I am far from unique here on HT.


All right, so that legitimately impresses me. Tell me more in fact. How did your family contain such a high degree of ethnic and cultural diversity?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> All right, so that legitimately impresses me. Tell me more in fact. How did your family contain such a high degree of ethnic and cultural diversity?


How? Marriage. That is how most family's become ethnically diverse.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

painterswife said:


> How? Marriage. That is how most family's become ethnically diverse.


That doesn't really explain it all though. Don't you live in Wyoming right now which is like 99% white cowboys and .1% actual females?


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Carvalus is pretty white


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> That doesn't really explain it all though. Don't you live in Wyoming right now which is like 99% white cowboys and .1% actual females?


You see that is exactly the type of thing that I expect from you. What does where I live now have to do with my life experience? Very little. I grew up in a vibrant international city. My father married my Japanese mother when I was 12. I gained three full Japanese brothers and sisters. Two Japanese grandparents. Aunts, Uncles and cousins of both and a mix of both. I had many cousins from Japan stay and live with us while learning English and getting Doctorates. I learned Japanese along with my brothers and sisters. My sister married her Chinese best friends brother and along came my Japanese/Chinese nieces. We added in Jewish, Dutch, Native American and A Wyoming born and bred to that by marriage. We have a very international, well traveled family of teachers, Professors, Business Owners, Building Contractors, Air Force Aviators, Physiotherapists, farmers, Sushi Chef, etc and more.

The funny thing is I am not the exception here on HT. You however don't seem to know that because your posts show you judge people on their location and their current occupation. You should really get rid of your those preconceptions and actual learn about your fellow HT's. They have so much knowledge and world experience to offer you that you don't seem to be aware of.

PS. I have also lived in two international Ski Resorts, one just an hour from me now. You would be amazed the people I have met working in hotels and gardening for.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

oneraddad said:


> Carvalus is pretty white


Yeah, the diversity is a bit lower than I was expecting.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

I want to know stuff. I know some stuff but not enough although I am always overly proud when I can answer questions on Jeopardy. If I had the time, money and brains I would go to university and get so many degrees that it would look like the alphabet after my name. Meanwhile I read and experiment. And then I would start on the trades – well, maybe not plumbing. No offense but ewww. How we value work is crazy. We should be respecting and paying plumbers more than athletes and singers. If I never heard Beyonce again I would survive but without a functioning indoor bathroom, running water and a sewer system I would not. Been there, done that, not again.

My parents really believed in education and they never stopped for themselves or encouraging us. My 83 year old legally blind Mom was still trying to read the dictionaries of the five languages she spoke to learn new words. And then we would travel the world by atlas using bright lights, magnifiers and having me guide her finger down the page following the Nile River so that she could focus the narrow side view remaining from her Macular Degeneration.

When I was about 7 years old Dad and I went for an early morning walk. Our neighbour Mr. A was building a retaining wall for our apartment manager. He was a real stonemason from the old country. My Dad was fascinated and we stood there watching, working and learning until noon when Mom came looking for us. Dad learned how to cut and set a stone and they let me choose several of the stones and pat them into place. I will never forget how impressed my Dad was by the skill and knowledge that he could never hope to equal. Years later he built a retaining wall at their house. It stood up – almost straight.

Mom was a brilliant business woman and tradesperson, my Dad was a genius (did not get passed on) with lots of degrees and careers. Both were so impressive I still carry one shoulder lower than the other from the weight of the chip. 

My Mom admired and respected my Dad. She had her secondary school education and her apprenticeship and she was a master and artist at what she did. My Dad admired and respected my Mom. He was in the Military Academy from the age of 6 to the age of 27 just studying and graduating and studying and graduating some more until the war. Which was the rest of his education. They were equals. I think that this is why I have never disrespected any person’s education or work. What one can do the other cannot so different things for different people and it is better together.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

I learned a long time ago that you simply cant stereotype people. Theyre individuals, and even the semingly-quintessential example of the stereotype will surprise you by how much they dont fit...


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

There is a big difference between education and knowledge. Education is nice, but knowledge makes money.

Worked for a guy who barely got through high school. He can hardly read or write. But he is smart in his own way. he has offices in two major cities and 250 employees.

Back when I ran landscape companies I had employees pushing wheelbarrows with masters degrees.

Personally, I think the trades are the best deal right now. years back we did a lot of landscaping in a new very excusive neighborhood. The developer owned an avionics corporation. Real nice guy, smart educated and successful. The guy nextdoor was a hand surgeon, the guy next to him was a plumber.
Now I don't know about you, but my wife and daughters along with myself will give up a lot before I have to go without hot running water and a flush toilet. I can do my own accounting.


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## AggieChris (May 9, 2015)

I graduated from a gulf coast college with a maritime business program along with a marine biology program. We always got a good laugh that the marine biology program was the best recruiting tool for our business program. The marine biology was ridiculously challenging and once you graduated you came out making less than a living wage or riding around on shrimp boats in the gulf being an observer who was constantly tormented by the vessels crew. 

It didn’t take long for marine biology majors who had dreams of spooning dolphins at sea world to realize their educational investment in biology would not pay the same dividends as one that dealt in business.

That being said, if teaching, chasing grant work or floating around in the gulf monitoring by catch from shrimp boats floats your boat...who am I to judge. Marbys developed the much hated turtle excluder device and are working on effective by-catch excluder devices that I truly appreciate. On the flip side of that coin I’ve had many tradesman and longshoreman who I sign off on their payroll make more than my college “educated” tail. 

We all have our own path...but don’t look down on that dirty blue shirt at the end of a long day with a name tag on the breast bc often times they are making comparable or better money and are a hell of a lot happier doing it. And they make my salary possible....not my piece of paper I took on debt to acquire.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

The mods have been busy I see. Such a shame they have to work this hard to earn their pay when the posts are so intellectually crafted. The pay being so high and all.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Building things will belong to robots and engineers. Fixing things will belong to the mechanics, and we will need a lot of them if everything is going to be as automated and roboticized as we think it is.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Heritagefarm said:


> College degree doesn't guarantee a successful life. Work ethic is much more likely to guarantee that.
> 
> That said, the constant assumption that diesel mechanics are on intellectual par with, say, marine biologists, is just insulting. Different ballparks entirely.
> 
> Also, one you can keep doing until you're 85, because it won't break your back.


Welllll. Some people have a great memory and can get through a biology degree, and still be total morons when it comes to logic and reason. And right now the universities are ruled by Post Modernism, which is about as anti-science as any intellectual pursuit can get. I'd rather be a diesel mechanic who learned Aristotle/Plato/Smith/Voltaire/Locke/etc. by reading the University of Chicago's course materials list than be someone who got a STEM degree and had a bunch of Marxist failed logic shoved up my keester by lunatic professors teaching some elective I only took for the credits and the "I'm smart" credibility. I know a lot of people who had great short term memories and could pass the tests, and two years later they had no idea what I was talking about.

That being said, most of the time the diesel mechanic isn't going to know much about the world by comparison. What's your point? Maybe high-school should be year round and we should teach important things to our kids instead of starting them off in life with See Spot Run.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

wiscto said:


> Welllll. Some people have a great memory and can get through a biology degree, and still be total morons when it comes to logic and reason. And right now the universities are ruled by Post Modernism, which is about as anti-science as any intellectual pursuit can get. I'd rather be a diesel mechanic who learned Aristotle/Plato/Smith/Voltaire/Locke/etc. by reading the University of Chicago's course materials list than be someone who got a STEM degree and had a bunch of Marxist failed logic shoved up my keester by lunatic professors teaching some elective I only took for the credits and the "I'm smart" credibility. I know a lot of people who had great short term memories and could pass the tests, and two years later they had no idea what I was talking about.
> 
> That being said, most of the time the diesel mechanic isn't going to know much about the world by comparison. What's your point? Maybe high-school should be year round and we should teach important things to our kids instead of starting them off in life with See Spot Run.


Yes, that would be great, and can we teach American students how to research for themselves, hownto use Google, how to decipher fake news from reputable news, how to avoid filter bias, howto craft their opinions into well formated, rational expressions of free speech, and gain introspection and appreciation for varieties of different people, instead of the current continuous stream of subpar intellectual nonsense that we currently teac American students, where many do not even come out of school knowing what evolution is or why creation didn't happen? Thank you.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Two votes in the filter bias.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Heritagefarm said:


> Yes, that would be great, and can we teach American students how to research for themselves, hownto use Google, how to decipher fake news from reputable news, how to avoid filter bias, howto craft their opinions into well formated, rational expressions of free speech, and gain introspection and appreciation for varieties of different people, instead of the current continuous stream of subpar intellectual nonsense that we currently teac American students, where *many do not even come out of school knowing what evolution is or why creation didn't happen? *Thank you.


i reckon I be one of them "subpar intellectuals" on accounts as I have a hunch creation did happen. If it didn't happen we wouldn't have no place to be!


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> i reckon I be one of them "subpar intellectuals" on accounts as I have a hunch creation did happen. If it didn't happen we wouldn't have no place to be!


You make up for it by being you. (That's a compliment.)


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> where many do not even come out of school knowing what evolution is or why creation didn't happen? Thank you.


I came out of school fully knowing what evolution is. I have even seen many examples of it in real time, but, I fail to understand why creation didn't happen? Care to enlighten us?


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Farmerga said:


> I came out of school fully knowing what evolution is. I have even seen many examples of it in real time, but, I fail to understand why creation didn't happen? Care to enlighten us?


Sure: *throws horse in pond; horse drowns* 

There we go.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Heritagefarm said:


> Yes, that would be great, and can we teach American students how to research for themselves, hownto use Google, how to decipher fake news from reputable news, how to avoid filter bias, howto craft their opinions into well formated, rational expressions of free speech, and gain introspection and appreciation for varieties of different people, instead of the current continuous stream of subpar intellectual nonsense that we currently teac American students, where many do not even come out of school knowing what evolution is or why creation didn't happen? Thank you.


Introspection would be wonderful for everyone. Some would benefit appreciably from it more than others, at least from my perspective. 

Google may not be the best tool to recommend for deciphering fake news, either. FWIW.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Heritagefarm said:


> Yes, that would be great, and can we teach American students how to research for themselves, hownto use Google, how to decipher fake news from reputable news, how to avoid filter bias, howto craft their opinions into well formated, rational expressions of free speech, and gain introspection and appreciation for varieties of different people, instead of the current continuous stream of subpar intellectual nonsense that we currently teac American students, where many do not even come out of school knowing what evolution is or why creation didn't happen? Thank you.


Or you could say.... Where many of them come out of institutions of higher learning like Cal thinking that the differences between biological males and biological females only exist because they were created by the social construct.

But you wouldn't say that if you haven't learned to avoid filter bias...


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

wiscto said:


> Or you could say.... Where many of them come out of institutions of higher learning like Cal thinking that the differences between biological males and biological females only exist because they were created by the social construct.
> 
> But you wouldn't say that if you haven't learned to avoid filter bias...


That's only one possible explanation for things they believe and endorse. If you actually talked to real transgendered people like I have, maybe you would gain a greater appreciation for the situation. To the best of my understanding, gender is considered a social construct now, whereas sex is biological. 

Oh course, you're only using this as a red herring for your own anti LGBT phobia, so... I don't expect any real improvements any time soon.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Hiro said:


> Introspection would be wonderful for everyone. Some would benefit appreciably from it more than others, at least from my perspective.
> 
> Google may not be the best tool to recommend for deciphering fake news, either. FWIW.


I didn't say that. >_<


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Heritagefarm said:


> Sure: *throws horse in pond; horse drowns*
> 
> There we go.


All of the horses I ever met were pretty good swimmers, never seen one drown. Setting that aside, what is the supposed connection between a drowning horse and creation?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> Sure: *throws horse in pond; horse drowns*
> 
> There we go.


Yeah, about what I expected.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Heritagefarm said:


> That's only one possible explanation for things they believe and endorse. If you actually talked to real transgendered people like I have, maybe you would gain a greater appreciation for the situation. To the best of my understanding, gender is considered a social construct now, whereas sex is biological.
> 
> Oh course, you're only using this as a red herring for your own anti LGBT phobia, so... I don't expect any real improvements any time soon.


Wow. The irony that you embody as a human being is just astounding. Let's look at all the nonintellectual, unscientific things you did here. Assuming, because of your bias, that I haven't talked to real transgender people. What, you think you're special? I actually know quite a lot of LGBT people, including transgender folk.

Now... If you were actually familiar with the active arguments coming from the upper levels of universities and from the transgender movement, you would know that you are in fact incorrect. There is a reason why Scandinavian Ph.Ds are trying to prove that women were great warriors during the Viking Age, and that ships full of female viking raiders were commonplace. It's because the current trend in the "scientific" community in western universities is that biological sex means almost nothing, that men and women will be the same when the social constructs are destroyed. Own that and I'll consider you up to speed on current events. Deny it and we'll all know that your bias toward anger and loathing for the American Right has clouded your ability to take in current events.

And there is absolutely nothing about me that is phobic of the LGBT community in any way shape or form. If you knew me at all, you'd know that. So what is it that makes you speak as if you know me? Usually it's a little something in your brain that skews toward ego.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

wiscto said:


> Wow. The irony that you embody as a human being is just astounding. Let's look at all the nonintellectual, unscientific things you did here. Assuming, because of your bias, that I haven't talked to real transgender people. What, you think you're special? I actually know quite a lot of LGBT people, including transgender folk.
> 
> Now... If you were actually familiar with the active arguments coming from the upper levels of universities and from the transgender movement, you would know that you are in fact incorrect. There is a reason why Scandinavian Ph.Ds are trying to prove that women were great warriors during the Viking Age, and that ships full of female viking raiders were commonplace. It's because the current trend in the "scientific" community in western universities is that biological sex means almost nothing, that men and women will be the same when the social constructs are destroyed. Own that and I'll consider you up to speed on current events. Deny it and we'll all know that your bias toward anger and loathing for the American Right has clouded your ability to take in current events.
> 
> And there is absolutely nothing about me that is phobic of the LGBT community in any way shape or form. If you knew me at all, you'd know that. So what is it that makes you speak as if you know me? Usually it's a little something in your brain that skews toward ego.


Attempting to better understand history is not the same thing as erasing the boundaries between the biological sexes. This was your original claim - you've claimed that academics want to completely erode the differences between male and female.

In fact this is much more the goal of radical feminists, than the average instructor at west coast universities. 

Aside from biological differences, however, there really aren't as many differences between men and women as you'd think. Many of the differences are completely sociological and created around the time the agricultural revolution started. 

Transgenders often still believe in biological sex, which is obvious, but a male might identify as a female, because her mannerisms and thoughts patterns are much more feminine. 

The odd thing about believing that is that such transgenders actually reinforce the idea that male and female biological exist. So no, the transgender movement isn't eroding biological sex, it is eroding sociological gender. Maybe you have talked to trans people, but have not actually sought to understand them.


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## catsboy (May 14, 2015)

HDRider said:


> If I were to advise a young person these days, I would recommend the trades, pay your dues, and start your own business.
> 
> Going to college on auto pilot is stupid.


My Dad quit school in the 9th grade, died worth over $5 million. He learned diesel tech work in the Army during the Korean War. When I graduated high school I had 3 scholarship offers for football. My Dad talked me out of them and I joined the Marine Corp where I learned avionics repair on A6E Intruders. My father started his own repair and parts business for trucks, which he sold for $3 million. I bought into a truck body shop and parts business 6 years ago, I am selling the business in June to retire to my farm in Tenn. I'm 59 yo. My Dad retired at 52 yo. I have taken some college level business and accounting courses to improve myself in what I considered my weak areas. I'm better off than most of the college grads I went to high school with. Most of them did just what you said "went to college on auto pilot" With no real direction as to where their degree would take them.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Heritagefarm said:


> Attempting to better understand history is not the same thing as erasing the boundaries between the biological sexes.


Agreed. But that isn't what they're doing. Goodbye.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

wiscto said:


> Agreed. But that isn't what they're doing. Goodbye.


Enjoy your ignorance. *sounds of another horse drowning*


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> All of the horses I ever met were pretty good swimmers, never seen one drown. Setting that aside, what is the supposed connection between a drowning horse and creation?


God only knows.......


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Let's go back to the diesel mechanic and marine biologist. If the diesel boat engine isn't running, the marine biologist can't go out to sea and do their research that might save an endangered species. Every spoke is important to the integrity of the wheel.

Many occupations are interactive, interdependent. Civilized life in an area with high population density grinds to a halt without the people who pick up the trash. 

No need for resentment, superiority complexes, whatever drives this us against them attitude. We need doctors, scientists, truck drivers and burger flippers to keep the world turning. Appreciate them all.


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