# Does she look like a free martin



## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

I know, I know, I need to get her tested, but here are some pictures of her whosit, at the risk of appearing to be someone who needs help taking pictures of her cows bottom, does she look like a free martin?


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I think it's an internal exam....and you can't tell from external pictures.....
I hope she's not!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

If I recall correctly, one of the signs is extra/more hair in that area. The photo seems to show more hair, but you still gotta get an internal check.


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## allenslabs (Feb 6, 2005)

That is a lot of hair but I wouldn't fret till you have a vet do the internal exam. Hopefully she's just a hairy girl....it can happen!


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

What do her teats look like? Can you find them? The only freemartins I've had experience with had ones about the size of pencil erasers


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

What makes you think that it may be a freemartin? I have reared calves with vulvas every bit as hairy as this and they went on to make excellent milk producers and excellent mothers.

Have her tested either by internal examination or bloods.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

Lets see, yes she has four nipples, she is only four months old but they are all there and a bit of a bag forming as well. I am paranoid she is a free martin because I only paid $250 for her when she was a week old, and figured it was because she was sick, but when I heard about the hairy whosit (my other cow is a boy) I started to worry. She was supposed to be a Jersey, but folks who have seen her picture say she is probably mixed...


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

thanks Ronnie, I just haven't seen that many cow fannies I guess...you give me hope


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Did you pay $25 or $250 for her? If you did pay $250 for her then that's a fair price for a week old heifer...That's what I'd expect to pay...Topside


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

I paid $250 for her


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## allenslabs (Feb 6, 2005)

Then that is very fair. I paid $130 for my jersey/angus cross heifer at two weeks old and there was a guy who had sold jersey heifers for $250 or so, so I wouldn't think her price way off. I would love to see a picture of all of her though! LOL!


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

Have to do a blood test to be positive. A friend got 2 heifers one year, then 2 more the next year. The first two had very hairy whosits, the second two much less hair but eraser teats. The second two were both freemartins. She'd paid prices for non-freemartins and was not happy at all  Very expensive beef as they became sick and needed a lot of care to survive... What state did you get yours from?


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## FEF (Jan 30, 2007)

In most cases you can't tell by looking or even by feeling at this age. You can have a blood test done to be sure. That might save you some time and effort if you were going to train her as a milker. Good luck....


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

I got her in Alabama, off Craigs list, and picked her up at a gas station, guy pulled her from the back of his pickup truck and she was so ill and filthy I couldn't make myself put her in the trailer, so she road home in the back of my hummmer


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

do you guys mean shaped like erasers or the size of an eraser? she is five months old and her little teets are about the size and thickness of the last joint of my little finger,maybe an inch long (she is developing slowly due to be dreadfully sick when I got her) but two are flat on the end where the hole is.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

here are some pictures of her little bag, what must my neighbors think, first they see be taking pictures of her butt, then holding a camera under her belly, they probably think I am part of some photo beastiality ring or something


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## allenslabs (Feb 6, 2005)

She might be all jersey really as they can be dark. She reminds of my jers/angus heifer though. Not a bad cross if so. Cute calf though! I think she looks completely normal but what do I know. LOL!


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## poorboy (Apr 15, 2006)

Doesn't look like one, but appears to be a cross of some kind.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Oh, I've seen these animals before. She's a Buckethead calf. They're cute! I've also seen Buckethead lambs before. They're not quite as smart as other breeds, but they are usually pretty entertaining.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I'm the lady who bought the two freemartins that were supposed to be "future milkers". They are Holstein heifers I paid $275 each for from Katharine Smith aka War Painted Ponies in Danville, Alabama. The only way to be really SURE if the heifer is a free martin or not is a blood test. It's not all that hard or expensive and it's worth it to get it done sooner rather than later.
Good luck she is a pretty little girl!


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

People sure can be mean, greedy, and heartless...Topside


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## allenslabs (Feb 6, 2005)

Yes they can topside. An amish friend out this way said that a few years back someone came through the community with a trailer load of heifers for sale at a really good price. He said everyone in the community bought enough that the trailer left empty. Not a single one of them ever had a calf. Ever. He said he couldn't believe that someone could do something like that and then said, "Ya know, after he left that day he ain't never been back since. I guess he was scared to." LOL! I couldn't imagine ever doing that to someone.


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

Looks bigger than Cheryl's cows did, but, once again, blood test for a positive. It's easy once you get the right needle LOL Poor girls, learn from me, get a short needle!


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

Cheryl, I bought a holstien heifer from a lady named Katherine in Danville and she had paint horses but others also, not sure if that would be the same person, my heart was set on a jersey and I sold her to a friend of mine. Later when I heard about FM I told my friend I would buy her back if she turned out to be a FM, but she thinks she is pregnant so I think we are okay, she wasn't worried about it. The lady I bought her from said the vet said she would make a good replacement cow...funny, she said she had four origionally and this was her last one....


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Thats her. I just can not believe this. I'd definitely get that heifer tested. 

http://www.geneticvisions.net/freemartin.aspx

She had 3 when I bought mine on May 1, 2010 and she told me the same thing. Then when I had my two tested and BOTH came back freemartins she told me she was unaware of it and gave me a big sob story about having a new baby and having sick horses. Then she threatened to sue me for telling people she ripped me off because she "didn't know". Obviously she never sued me~ what was she gonna sue for? As I told her the TRUTH is an absolute defense against slander (and besides....slander is verbal, I WROTE my accusations and if they were untrue they would be LIBEL but again with the TRUTH being an absolute defense) I very seriously considered sueing her and I have all my evidence including screen shots from her website where she is advertising that last heifer you bought as a "Future milker" but I was having some health issues and getting worked up over her and her crap was just too much for me so I let it go.

If yours is a freemartin~ and I would definitely test her if I were you~ I have screenshots of the ads and proof that mine are freemartins and I'll testify for you if you sue her.


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

Sure hope your friend's heifer got pregnant, the woman refused to test the remaining one. Of course her "vet" "swore they were fine...


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## allenslabs (Feb 6, 2005)

Does she have a website? Are there any "future milkers" listed on there now? Farmgirl....is there any way you can get her tested? I am more leaning that you might considering Cheryl's experience and it happens to be the same lady.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Is this the heifer you bought?










These are the two I bought on May 1st 2010









You can see that third heifer in the picture behind the two I bought.
These are my two test results









I called her at the time I got those test results in September of 2010 and told her those calves were freemartins and she gave me a big sob story about her sick baby and failing farm. I let it go, but first I posted an ad on the Craigslist I bought the heifers from warning whomever bought the third heifer to have her tested. Then in December Carol pointed out that she had posted lies about our transaction on her web site~V she said I paid less than I did, I have proof I paid $275 each, said she had a receipt I signed saying I paid less and knew they could be freemartins...if she has any such thing it is a forgery because I signed nothing and she later admitted that to me on the phone. I have more screen shots and witnesses to the conversations that took place. But I was ill and she was frankly kind of a lunatic~ she knows where I live and I was sick so I let it go again.

Sorry you got taken too.
I still have my two out in the pasture. They grow abysmally slowly~ they are tiny for their age and it will be next year before I can butcher them at the earliest

this is a pic of them this last Feb (I don't have any current pics where you can see the markings clearly enough to SEE they are the same calves)









they are also in this picture from July but it is hard to see them behind the bull there all the way to the right









Wow it's amazing how mad I am again all of a sudden!


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Pics didn't develop for me Cheryl...Topside


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

well nuts~ let me try putting in links for those the pics don't come up for.

This should be the first pic of what I think is the heifer she bought (screen shot from sellers web site)
http://thereddragonsden.com/images/NetPhoto/freemartinLG_1.jpg

This should be the two I bought with the one she bought in the picture with them (also a screen shot from sellers web site)
http://thereddragonsden.com/images/NetPhoto/freemartinLG_2.jpg

This should be a copy of my freemartin testing from genetic visions on those two heifers
http://thereddragonsden.com/images/NetPhoto/geneticvisions.jpg

This should be a picture of those two heifers growing poorly with over extended bellies (wonder why they think the other one is pregnant?) last Feb in my pasture
http://thereddragonsden.com/images/Homestead/11 Feb/feb2011 026.jpg

This should be a picture of those two heifers in July in my pasture~ still growing poorly and overextended bellies. The calf to the left of the bull was born in Feb 2011~ the Pic is unclear ~ but the two heifers in question are all the way to the right behind the bull, I would take a new picture but husband is out of town with my camera right now. You can see that they are not much bigger than the calf born in Feb 2011 but they were "weaned" in April 2010
http://thereddragonsden.com/images/Homestead/11 Feb/Cattle7-7.jpg


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Cheryl, I can see all the photos now...thanks


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Your last photo could be a desktop...nice pic.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

wow, had to be the same lady, she was pregnant and ready to have the baby when I bought Olivia. She only had the one left, and actually had been working with her, tying up and handling her udder, I paid $400 so I got even more hosed if she is a FM. However I sold her for the same price to my friend at ten months and a good size, and my freind keeps beef cow, and well, I don't want to think about it but if she is a FM my friend will likely still come out ahead...although I did offer to buy her back..l don't think the picture was Livia, she had less white. Cheryl I am sorry you got taken, I feel bad because I sold a cow without checking but at least I offered to make it right... I suppose it will be divine justice if my little Annebelle is


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

OH! Don't even suggest such a thing! Get Annabelle tested. You sound like you must be reasonably local to Carol and I~ we are about an hour South of Huntsville. Do you need us to help you get a blood sample off Annabelle?


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

thanks, I can get her tested, I just haven't I think because I don't want to find out she is, she is A2/A2, I need to though because even though I will keep her and she will become another pet, I need to start again if I want a milk cow. I have been on travel all this week for work but will be back Tommorrow and will get cracking..I do not know if my friend will get Liv tested if she is not pregnant now, I can offer to do that if it would help you if she does not calve.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

Cheryl, the first two you bought the year before, was it the same lady? the ones with the Hairy whosits? or just these two...


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

No, the first 2 came from Tennessee and they weren't FM. Just the 2 came from her and both of them are FM


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

wow Cheryl, I am sorry to get you so upset about this all over again after what you went through...I actually sold Olivia to her for $250 at nine months I remember I wanted her to have a good home and just needed enough to buy Annabelle so I hosed myself a little in the process by selling her for less than paid for her, and I paid to have her dehorned as well....anyway, my feed store lady was mad at my friend for only paying $250 for a calf that big, but then again she butchers her cows and I guess that is low for a feeder calf..but my friend wanted a milk cow so I sure hope she is pregnant, she said she thought she went into heat and thinks she is settled...I am going to feel like crap if she is a FM, and I will look like I sold her just for that reason, but that was not that at all, I just wanted a Jersey and this other one came up for sale, I didn't realize Olivia would get as big as she is supposed to, and my husband has a strict one out one in rule at the farm to keep me under control or I would still have both and never sold Olivia...what a mess! If I could to and smack this chic for both of us I would...


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

Pregnancy test is only 7.50 plus shipping. Freemartin test is 25. Like Cheryl said, we'll help get the sample off both girls if they're close to us. That way there'd be no doubt.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

she looks good to me but do the test


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

I found a picture of Olivia, and yup, she looks like the little cow in the first picture, the one she did not believe was a twin and was looked over by the cow vet..yeah right..sigh


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## Slev (Nov 29, 2003)

Man, I HATE crooked & dishonest people. I'd be willing to bet if someone "looked into" that Vet paper, it's for some "other" calves too. Most Vet's would not be party to crooked stuff, it means a lot to them. I think I would also call the local Farm Bureau to ask what could/should be done. sobbing baby/farm woes or not, look at the damage she has caused now to 2 people here on HT... "shut her down" I say...


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

Did you actually _see_ any vet checking paperwork? She talked about it but never provided any... Just like she _said_ she had paperwork Cheryl had signed saying she knew they might be FM and that she paid a different price... (Oh, and they had _not_ been checked by a vet at that point)

Slev, it's pretty much "buyer beware" around here though she might could be sued for money paid if they could prove she knew. Luckily (or not), she dumped them and hasn't tried selling more... We are keeping an eye out for that so we can sound the alarm. She isn't selling anything right now, lost her stud horse so doesn't even have foals now...


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

I remember that stallion looked pretty rough when I was there, some sort of internal problems I think, but I can't really remember, does she still have a website? I couldn't find one.
Did Ms. C have the same disclaimer she posted for the two she bought, i.e. the vet had looked at, and she didn't think they were twins? did she pay $400 each for them? I just wonder, that is pretty amazingly stupid for a seller to do that, in Olivias case really dumb, far better to make no claims and plead ignorance... I wonder if Cheryl called her and told her before or after she posted the blurb about Olivia and I bought her? I wish I could remember exactly when I bought her...


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

oh sorry, no to answer your question I never saw any paperwork, I didn't know anything about the specifics of FM or even heard the term, I never saw this add Cheryl posted, I just got her info off of craigs list, and only asked if there was a possibilty she could be sterile because another fellow I wanted to buy from discouraged me as the only heifer he had was "one of a twin with a bull and lots of times they can't be bred" and he knew I wanted a milk cow (see, there are some honest folks out there, I am starting to think the guy I bought AB was honest too and I jumped to conclusions because of her hairy whosit but I guess we will see) She told me the vet had told her she would make a good replacement heifer...I am going to try and find out a timeline, I mean if she said that after Cheryl had told her, then it is cleary documented fraud...


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## Vydra (Jul 18, 2011)

farmgirl6 said:


> does she still have a website? I couldn't find one...


This is the one off of Carol's screen shots.
http://warpaintsmom.webs.com/


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

When Cheryl called her the baby was sick, so, no she can't prove the woman knew before you got her. So, she does have that excuse. I know Cheryl didn't pay that much, they were younger, but couldn't have been by much, I'm pretty sure Cheryl said somewhere how much she paid.

Sorry we missed the ad, we tried to watch for her so we could warn people that the calves weren't looking good 

I think those were Cheryl's screenshots, I have trouble figuring those out, but yes, that's her website. She has removed any mention of cattle.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I paid $275 each for them. I bought them off a craigslist ad and did not know about her website at the time. She said she was selling them because she was pregnant and had unexpected expenses so she needed the money. She had 3 calves~ showed me pics of all three and said she wanted to keep the darker black one (the one you bought and named Olivia). I asked about free martins, she knew at that time what they were and told me she had asked the man she bought them from and he said they were not, AND that if they turned out to be she would would buy them back or refund the difference in price between a heifer and a bull calf. She brought the calves to me. I did not get anything in writing, wish I had. I did not know about her website until September when I got the freemartin test results. I googled her phone number then and came up with this web site:
http://www.freewebs.com/warpaintsmom/

Thats where I found the advertisement for the last calf and the pictures of my calves. I took screen shots as proof that she was selling the calves as "Future milkers" and called her. Thats when I got the sad story about her baby being sick and something wrong with the horse and how she was going to apply for foodstamps that day as soon as her mother came to get her cuz she had no transportation of her own....ect you get the idea. I felt bad for her and figured I was just out of luck, I wrote a short note warning who ever bought the last calf on craigslist about Katharine Smith of Warpainted ponies from Danville Alabama. Her web site said the calf had not been picked up in September so I thought I could warn someone. Technically that ad was against CL rules~ it was flagged and gone within a day. I didn't repost it~ I thought it was over.

In December Carol contacted me to show me her web site where she had posted several lies about our transaction making it sound like I was unreasonable and she was a victim (I have screen shots~ it will take several to make them small enough to put on here and still big enough for the words to be read so I will only post those if someone really feels they need to read it) and accusing me of posting her private information illegally (I also have screen shots where she posted her private information on a public horse web site, including her street address).

I called her and she was....frankly a lunatic on the phone. I could here her boyfriend (husband? he changes designation depending on her rant) in the background also ranting. These people know where I live. I did get her to admit on the phone that she did not have any signed receipt by me, she claimed she thought I had both copies...it doesn't exist thats why she doesn't have one. Also she claimed I wrote on the check I wrote her that I only paid $500 for both calves....actually I HAVE the photocopy of the check from the bank and it says NOTHING. I was stupid and didn't get anything in writing. I was sick (this was about the time I was kicked by the cow~ we didn't know at the time I had most likely taken a stress fracture but I knew I felt like hell) I had already written off the cost of those calves as yet again me being an idiot (I'd like to say it didn't happen very often....but it does) and those people knew where I lived! So I worked myself up, collected all my proof and wrote a demand letter threatening to sue if I did not receive payment of the difference in price.....then I saved it all on my computer and forgot about it again until this post came up.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

Well, blood drawn on AB and sent off for better or worse, sigh I should have gone through you, much cheaper I think, test was 50, fed ex $60 and heaven knows what the vet bill will be (but I needed him out anyway, so oh well, he even looked at my daughters ancient cat) but once I was that far, I though oh well, what the heck..... Soon as I can get with my friend, I will see about drawing blood from Olivia... 

I guess I need to know, but as they say, ignorance is bliss for a while, anyway...I had convinced myself she just had a hairy whoosit but sounds like FM's are more common than I could have imagined!!

Again, I am sorry to get this all stirred up for you, after everything you went through.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

wow~
The test at genetic visions costs $25
the sample does not have to be overnighted~ USPS priority cost me something like $4

Freemartins are not all that common. I'm still in shock that this woman was able to find 2 of them~ she must have made a nice little profit selling them to me at $275 each. Hopefully she could only find the 2 she ripped me off with~ that would explain why she asked for more on the calf you bought.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Cheryl I haven't been to the dairy auction lately, but the last time I visited a Jersey FM calf would sell for 10-15 dollars. Point being, look at the profit margin a liar could make in just a few days...Enough said...Topside


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

yup that was an arm and a leg, I guess I just like them because they gave me the good news about her being A2/A2, supersitious maybe hoping for more good news...dumb I know, I have really done some done stuff recently I guess....


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

hey, how are the two heifers you bought doing now? they say like a tiny percentage of them can be bred, did you ever have them looked at? I know it is a small chance, I dunno if I would. do you ever go to dog days in ardmore TN?
Janice


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I look at them everyday. I was working with them to be future milkers so they are pretty petty. I've not had a vet look at them. They are not sick. They are small for their age~ I'm using the previous years holstien/jersey cross heifers to judge how big they should be and they are just not as big as the cross girls were at 16 months, but they are growing. I've got them in with the bull because I don't see any reason to separate them from the rest of the herd. As soon as I found out they were Freemartins I sent them out with the less tame cattle so I wouldn't be so attached to them. Being with the bull~ IF they are in tact the bull will know. I won't be holding my breath~ they have the wrong chromosome....I think the few twins that can breed did not get the wrong chromosome~ so they are twins but not freemartins. At least thats how I understood it.

And the flea market~ nope I've never been there. But I don't travel much. Carol may have been~ she grew up here in Alabama. Looks like an interesting flea market~ maybe make a special trip up sometime. Gonna have to be a few weeks though~ next weekend is Dragoncon in Georgia and already plan on seeing that.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

If you come let me know and I will try and meet you there, labor day is a big weekend for dog days, actually where I got my stormin Normin for my anniversary eight years ago and brought him home int he back of my mini van and the guy said he had just "sold the heifer" before I got there, how much you want to bet Norman had a twin? Yeah I think you are right about the FM thing, I didn't read up on it carefully enough...I wonder what makes them smaller, being a twin do you suppose? one would almost think having the maleness would make them bigger...strange strange...


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## momagoat61 (Mar 30, 2008)

We raise beef cattle and this year since May we have had 2 set set of twins. The first was twin heifer calves, the first was coming backwards and we didn't discover the cow in time to help and lost them both, that was a real bummer and then twin bull calves and they are about 2 months old now, they were born without any assistance and are doing great. We usually will have at least a set of twins born out of the 40 to 50 calves born annually here on the farm. Usually the twins we have born are bull / heifer, but this year was very unusal to have the same sex twins born both times. We usually have to pull one of the twins and raise one on a bottle but this year the cow with the twin bull calves gives a great deal of milk and we just choose to leave them with her and the cow is fed grain daily morning and evening and so far has raised them both well. We have never farm sold a twin heifer calve twined with a bull calve ever. Farm sold meaning just that, sold off the farm. We only sell our beef calves either grouped as steers and heifers in large groups at auction and they are only purchased by livestock producers that buy for feeder lots and they are all shipped out West.. We have had people stop by looking for freezer beef to purchase on the hoof and its their choice to buy a steer or heifer then the price would be the same as what we would get for them at auction. Someone that would deliberatley sale a heifer calve as a future family farm cow that came from a bull/ heifer twining birth needs to be hung up and cow pattie whipped, thats just not right.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

the need to come up with a simple test you can do quickly at the farm, like checking your blood for glucose, and we can all run around with these little test packs in our pockets, definately put an end to this stuff


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

Thank goodness, the little Holstein Heifer I sold to a friend that later I was afraid might be a FM is safely bred and due in Feb, thank goodness! I would have felt terrible if I had sold her, abet inadvertantly, a FM without realizing...when It was brought to my attention the lady I bought her from had sold two FM with the same group I nearly had a meltdown, I didn't want my friend to think I had done that on purpose, but thank goodness it all worked out...extremely fortunate for me as by a strange twist of fate, this lady is now my boss!!


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## allenslabs (Feb 6, 2005)

Awesome! So glad she got her checked though. I didn't really think much about buying heifers online till I read about the FM's on here. Good deal for your friend/boss! LOL!


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