# Shiloh Shepherds...?



## Kstornado11 (Mar 17, 2006)

I am intrigued by these beautiful dogs...anyone have any experiance regarding them? Any clue where to find one in eastern Kansas? For those of you who have never heard of them, take a look:

http://dogbreedinfo.com/shilohshepherd.htm


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

in a nutshell extra large german sheperds linebred to reproduce the size & temperament of the foundation stock.


----------



## MARYDVM (Jun 7, 2004)

Very few breeders are getting hips certified, despite a problem with dysplasia in the breed. Dogs usually have a soft temperament - makes a nice family pet, not a serious protection dog.


----------



## Corgitails (Jun 2, 2003)

What MaryDVM said, plus the fact that the breeders are crazy political. If you like the look, just find a 'plush' or 'longcoated' puppy from a reputable GSD breeder.


----------



## mjw15618 (Jan 17, 2007)

The mother of a girl I used to work with breeds them here in western Pennsylvania. From what I understand, they're 95% German Shepard with some husky and a few other breeds mixed in. And yes, it seems that there's quite a bit of nastiness going on between the breeders because none of them can agree on what exactly constitutes a "Shiloh Shepard" (i.e. colors, conformation, etc.). Plus, they're super pricey...this woman asks $1000 and up for one of her pups. That seems an awful lot to pay for a dog that's not recognized by the AKC and has no true breed standard!


----------



## GoldenMom (Jan 2, 2005)

Yes they are great big German Shepherds. I've known two. One of them died at 2 of a genetic heart condition. Neither of them were well trained at all (you could hear them whining/crying from a block away when ever they had to come to the clinic), so my opinion of the breed is a bit jaded. They weren't mean at all though.


----------



## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

You will pay a lot of money for a dog that isn't AKC registered, which may or may not matter to you. Do alot of research first. They are known for having physical problems, including hip dysplasia. Educate yourself as to all of the medical problems they face, how prevalent the problems are, and which of them can be tested for. Any breeder worth his or her salt tests their breeding stock before breeding. A vet certification that a dog or puppy is healthy is not the same as testing.


----------



## bluetick (May 11, 2002)

Here's another big shepherd based on GSD's - http://kingshepherd.com

I believe these also have a bit of Great Pyrennes in them, as well as at least one other breed. They are not recognized by AKC, and are quite expensive.


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

as i prefer working dogs, you couldn't pay me to take an AKC registered dog of any breed. on second thought i would take one BUT ONLY if you gave me A LOT of money.


----------



## Corgitails (Jun 2, 2003)

Pops- wouldn't it make more sense, if you wanted say, a working GSD, to take a dual registered dog (like most working GSDs- imported dogs- are) that was already titled in Schutzhund or ringsport of some sort, than to take your average $100 from the newspaper no papers GSD puppy? I fail to see how AKC papers suddenly makes a dog's working instincts, evaporate. 

One of the biggies on the Shilohs is that they aren't proven in any venues at all. No conformation titles, no obedience titles, no nothing to prove the 'better temperament' or anything than GSDs- just a lot of hype.


----------



## beaglady (Oct 7, 2002)

Corgitails said:


> One of the biggies on the Shilohs is that they aren't proven in any venues at all. No conformation titles, no obedience titles, no nothing to prove the 'better temperament' or anything than GSDs- just a lot of hype.


This is one of the down sides to the breed not being AKC registered - less venues where they are eligible to be shown. UKC has the 'rare breed classes' for obedience, but only if the animal is spayed/neutered, so that doesn't help a bit if your goal is to prove breeding stock.

I used to track with a group from the Baltimore area, and there was a Shiloh Shepherd in my group. The woman did SAR with hers & it had a calm stable, but neither wimpy nor aggressive temperament. I remember talking with her about her frustration cause she had done lots of obedience training and had nowhere to show, cause of the breed. 

There was another group of Shiloh Shepherd owners that used to attend a lcoal clubs conformation matches & I was much less impressed with them than the Maryland Shilohs. I just found the website of the woman I know from MD. 
http://shilohshepherds.net/kennel.htm


----------



## Corgitails (Jun 2, 2003)

Actually, there's quite a few venues they can show in, and if people were serious, they could at least save semen, neuter the boys, and show them in ASCA, UKC, etc. And I'm fairly sure NADAC and USDAA don't have s/n requirements.


----------



## beaglady (Oct 7, 2002)

Corgitails said:


> Actually, there's quite a few venues they can show in, and if people were serious, they could at least save semen, neuter the boys, and show them in ASCA, UKC, etc. And I'm fairly sure NADAC and USDAA don't have s/n requirements.


True about NADAC & USDAA. You mentioned conformation and obedience though, not agility. I think there's a new obedience venue or two since I was involved with it, that does allow any dog. APDT has rally for everyone. (I think) I was referring more to a conversation with a specific person (whose has females) that took place about 8 years ago. From her webiste, it does seem like she eventually found places to earn titles.


----------



## Corgitails (Jun 2, 2003)

well, conformation and obedience are my sports - I mostly meant performance in general. 

I've been VERY unimpressed with the shilohs I've seen, frankly- they just aren't any sounder or healthier or smarter or more trainable than your average well-bred GSD, and the price tag's a lot higher. They're probably more suitable for a pet home that can't live with the moderate drive of most American obedience line and show line dogs, but I don't think that a breed should be dumbed down just for pet owners, you know?


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Corgitails
if i actually wanted a sheperd type PP dog i'd go w/ a dutch sheperd or imported GSD (east german or czech lines) trained in one of the sports w/ more fighting intensity & less sending & searching and forego AKC registration all together.
But since i prefer bull & mastiff types, i would actually go for a nice Lucero or Steeltrap Bandog, or Scott/Painter line American bulldog, and the Warlock line of Old Southern White AB, although Clinton Cilliers of South Africa has some outstanding performance Neos (not obese, unhealthy wrinkle monsters) and Alex at Red Star has some premo working Presa Canarios and John Blackwell's Boerboels are everything they should be and then there is Dom's Donovan Pinscher (still too sheperdy for me though).
As you can see not much in there is AKC registered and some never will be.
plain and simple AKC registration has not helped the working ability of any breed as a whole, EVER and has been detrimental to most because the AKC is most strongly oriented to conformation showing. that field is dominated by people who don't work and don't know what it takes for a dog to do the job it is bred for. further they usually affiliate w/breed clubs that think the same. then they usually change the personality of the breeds to make it more amenable to the show circuit and lose the working personality in the process. then they usually change the standard to glom onto a particular look that usually ruins the health of the breed.
yes, the impeccable history of the show fancy at preserving the working abilities is why there are show & field type pointers & setters, it's why boxers, danes & english bulldogs are pretty much absent from the boar hunting scene in the USA, its why western wolfers use coldblood greys, staghounds (linebred crosses of grey to deerhound or irish wolfhound) & shags (linebred crosses of grey to saluki or borzoi) to catch coyotes. do i really need to go on?


----------



## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Pops2 said:


> plain and simple AKC registration has not helped the working ability of any breed as a whole, EVER and has been detrimental to most because the AKC is most strongly oriented to conformation showing. that field is dominated by people who don't work and don't know what it takes for a dog to do the job it is bred for. further they usually affiliate w/breed clubs that think the same. then they usually change the personality of the breeds to make it more amenable to the show circuit and lose the working personality in the process. then they usually change the standard to glom onto a particular look that usually ruins the health of the breed.


The English Bulldog is a classic example of this. The Border Collie people and the Jack Russell Terrier people both fought (unsuccessfully) to keep their breed OUT of the AKC, as they fear it will ruin the breed. I believe their fears are well founded. American show-bred German Shepherds are a completely different animal than the European GSD, and it saddens me greatly to see a knock-kneed, hock-walking, needle-nosed bag of nerves they call a "German Shepherd" slinking through an AKC show looking like its eyes are going to pop out of its head. 

I have no issue with conformation showing per se. It's just that conformation showing has become an end unto itself, and many breeders could care less about the qualities their breed came into being for. Fortunately, many others actively participate in field trials, schutzhund, obdience, tracking, earthdog trials, herding trials, and what have you. But it is not required, and so the common perception is that a "Champion" show dog is the pinnacle of what the breed should represent.

In Germany, German Shepherds are still required to pass a temperament test and working trial as well conformation in order to receive the show rating that would allow them to be bred. It's not a perfect system, but it is still worlds better than what we have with AKC.


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Wolf Flower
"It's not a perfect system, but it is still worlds better than what we have with AKC."
AMEN brother
each breed based on it's origin should be titled or certified in it's area of work or a reasonable substitute for example the dane should have to start a track follow it and catch a boar or get a schutzhund title since both test trailing ability as well as fight drive. pitty's could be titled as catch dogs or ratting dogs in a rat pit. sighthounds would have to run down & catch appropriate game like jackrabbit, cottontail, fox coyote or deer. no title, no show champion!
fortunately there are already many organizations to facilitate this.
unfortunately Americans as a whole are now to bambified & squeamish.


----------



## MARYDVM (Jun 7, 2004)

Wolf Flower said:


> In Germany, German Shepherds are still required to pass a temperament test and working trial as well conformation in order to receive the show rating that would allow them to be bred. It's not a perfect system, but it is still worlds better than what we have with AKC.


Although the German system may be somewhat superior to the AKC world, the GSD show people there have still managed to create their own mutant "highline" dog with a back so roached that it looks like the dog's rear is trying to outrun its front. The protection tests at the breed shows have been softened so much that they really don't tell you much about the dog's working ability(except how bad the ones who fail are). Even in Germany, if you want a real working dog, you stay away from show lines.


----------



## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

Thats why my GSD's are Czech imports with strong border patrol/shutzhund backgrounds. They are what working dogs should be . I have pups placed with law enforecement , search and rescue etc. I have 3 pups currently available.


Patty


----------



## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

MARYDVM said:


> Although the German system may be somewhat superior to the AKC world, the GSD show people there have still managed to create their own mutant "highline" dog with a back so roached that it looks like the dog's rear is trying to outrun its front. The protection tests at the breed shows have been softened so much that they really don't tell you much about the dog's working ability(except how bad the ones who fail are). Even in Germany, if you want a real working dog, you stay away from show lines.


Oh, I know that. But it is a step up compared to what we have in AKC to prove working temperament, which is absolutely nothing (unless you count the disqualification if the dog bites the judge). It could be really hard to watch American champions attempt a courage test, even as soft as it is... I envision dogs tripping over themselves to get out of the ring, screaming with terror and leaving a trail of urine as they go.


----------



## Hespa (Sep 28, 2011)

I realize this topic was started five years ago but I was interested in current comments on the Shiloh Shepherds. Because of bad experiences with German Shepherds while a child, I am hesitant about possibly having one. However, I am wondering if a Shiloh would be a better choice. I would like a dog that barks when someone comes to our farm or they sense that something is not right. I don't want a dog that is quick to bite but would be a deterent. Recommended breeders?


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Hespa said:


> I realize this topic was started five years ago but I was interested in current comments on the Shiloh Shepherds. Because of bad experiences with German Shepherds while a child, I am hesitant about possibly having one. However, I am wondering if a Shiloh would be a better choice. I would like a dog that barks when someone comes to our farm or they sense that something is not right. I don't want a dog that is quick to bite but would be a deterent. Recommended breeders?


why waste your time & money on a dog you're going to be predisposed to distrust?
better to look for a breed that has the personality & function you're looking for.


----------



## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I don't have a lot to say. I took the cheap way out, got a dog with no pedigree from what I thought would be a reputable breeder; she had lots of championship show lines. She was selling these pups for very little money, comparatively speaking. I had gotten off the phone with Duke's breeder and been told that she now charges upwards of $2000 per puppy. I should have saved that money and gotten another big, gentle giant like the one that is now slipping away from me rather than this inbred monster I have now. She is too hyper, she is timid-aggressive and cannot be trusted around ANYONE outside of family. She is nearly untrainable...after a year and a half I still cannot keep her from jumping on me. SHe is too smart and too agile to keep penned up...if she isn't clearing gates like a Warmblood horse she is on the counter with all 4 feet opening cupboards and helping herself.

I would take temperment ANYTIME and have now learned the hard way...you pay $$ for temperment. The SHiloh shepherds are really only about as big as Duke was in his prime. I would hang tight and cruise the breeders who boast the large shepherds, then check on their policies for hips etc.


----------



## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

In my personal opinion, the Shiloh Shepherd is a manufactured breed and not worth the money that they cost. Not much different than buying a labradoodle.

For what you pay for Shiloh Shepherd, you could buy an Alsatian type German Shepherd Dog , import it from Britain, have money left over, end up with an extremely well bred registered dog, and have your gigantic, gentle-natured, trust-worthy dog with multiple generations of hip and eye screening.


----------



## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

I don't think things have changed much with the breed in the past few years. Shiloh Shepherds resemble German Shepherds, but are oversize, mostly longhaired, and while some may be perfectly nice dogs, IMO it is not worth paying that much money for what is essentially a mixed breed that has no performance requirements. They still suffer from health and temperament problems. For dog that simply barks and looks intimidating, you could do just as well to adopt a big black dog from the shelter for much less money.


----------



## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

Have neve met any Shilohs personallly but I do know that the Seeing Eye in Morristown nj has LH GSD's crop up in their breeding program quite often. I have met quite a few of those dogs and found them quite stable compared to some of the run of the mill AKC show dogs and their prOgeny. I would educate yourself more about the breed, learn heir genetic issues amd research breeders amd buy from one who does test and keeps immaculate records. The best thing is to learn about the breed youreinterested in and take your time picking a puppy.


----------



## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

How about a Belgian Shepherd or Belgian Tervuran? They are longer haired Shepherds and seem very moderate physically (moderate angles on the hips and fronts) and temperament-wise..at least the ones I have been around at shows.


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

i stand by what i said earlier. if you have a bad history w/ dogs of sheperd type, you're better off getting anything else. at least you'll have a better chance of giving it an honest effort.


----------



## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

That is true Pops. I can't tell you how many people bring me Golden Doodle Poodle mixes then proceed to tell me how much they hate Poodles and do not want it to look like a Poodle. Half of them have Poodle coats and look like Standard Poodles with undocked tails. I really want to say to them "then why did you pay 800.00 for a Poodle mix?!"


----------



## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Haven said:


> I can't tell you how many people bring me Golden Doodle Poodle mixes then proceed to tell me how much they hate Poodles and do not want it to look like a Poodle.


Yes! I just had a client yesterday with a Goldendoodle...she told me that the last groomer "made him look like a Poodle" ... and she said this with such a sneer, as though her dog wasn't basically a standard Poodle with a tail. His coat was all Poodle curl, so of course once that coat is bathed, force-dried and brushed out, it's going to look Poodley no matter what. 

I told her that the "Poodle" look would go away in a few days, after the hair clumps together and curls up again.


----------



## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

Oh my goodness, I would take a dog that looks like carter in a heartbeat..and I don't like poodles (small ones anyway).. I like the lab-doodle breed anyway..but they are a mute breed and everyone thinks they are important enough to charge pure bred money for. I will wait..someday a one will appear when It's my time to get one...


----------



## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

The "doodle" type dogs are all over the map in terms of size, coat type, and temperament... I have known a few that were very pleasant, easygoing dogs of solid temperament. But many of them are downright nutso hyper--there's some kind of evil synergy going on that brings out the worst of whatever breeds are involved. But I have to say, I haven't met a mean one yet.

Just to bring this back to Shiloh Shepherds, I see Shilohs, King Shepherds, etc. the same way I see Labradoodles, Goldendoodles, and any other "designer" mixed breed. The original intent of creating a "new" breed may be innocent enough, but to me, it's nothing more than an elaborate scam. 

When you breed dogs, there is a written standard for each breed regarding conformation, temperament, and abilities. The goal is to come as close to the standard as possible. When there are no written standards and no conformation shows, breeders can take any old dog and breed it, no matter what it looks or acts like, and charge thousands for a puppy because it has a "designer" name. 

There are probably some breeders that do care about health, temperament, and ability of their dogs and may do OFA, other health tests, and acheive performance titles. But they are few compared to those who simply take any mutts they can find to make a little money on the side.

I am not sure what Shiloh breeders were trying to acheive, they took the GSD and mixed it with Malamute and Great Pyrenees, I think, creating a giant size, long-haired dog that resembles a GSD but doesn't act like one. I think they wanted a dog with less "drive". Well heck, working GSD breeders will sometimes get a pup in the litter that has no drive, and they're probably willing to GIVE such a puppy away.


----------



## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

Haven said:


> How about a Belgian Shepherd or Belgian Tervuran? They are longer haired Shepherds and seem very moderate physically (moderate angles on the hips and fronts) and temperament-wise..at least the ones I have been around at shows.


No.

Mon


----------



## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

WF, he looks to have a poodle coat that is simply too thick and cottony, like many. I always wish I could perform an experiment and take a randomly bred purebred Standard Poodle and one of these Poodle mixes, groom the Doodle mix in a traditional Standard Poodle pattern, then line it up next to the purebred and ask people to pick out the Poodle. Guarantee that 99.9% of pet owners would say they are both Poodles as long as they couldnt see the slightly longer tail on the mix.

Those mixes are all about marketting and being groomed like a mutt, instead of a correct Poodle pattern. Even a Doodle mix with a very bad coat can still be fluffed out by a groomer and sculpted into a Poodle.


----------



## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

The Labradoodle on the previous page doesn't looks like a purebred groomed Poodle to me at all. 
Although built similarly his head is very different. A purebred Poodle has quite a different head (especially when groomed) --->


















As for the Shiloh Shepherd, I personally would stay away from any breed that is still "under development" because of all the possible health issues.
But to be honest I have heard some really good stories about the breed from owners that got theirs from authorized S. Shepherd breeders (which basically means breeders that are registered with International Shiloh Shepherd Registry).
There seems to be a lot of personal attacks between the breeders going on though, another thing I don't like. 

@ Hespa, I think you want a large dog, so have you ever considered a Landseer E.C.T.?
Since you had a Bernese Mountain dog, but if I remember correctly you said you don't want another one because of the health problems in the breed. The Landseer seems to be somewhat healthier in general and from what some owners told me, they do bark when strangers come on their property but they are not quick to bite.

Another good protective farm dog would be a Bouvier des Flandres, but to be honest they are not as easy going as the Landseer.
And then there's also the Leonberger, but they are not the healthiest breed either..


----------



## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

Btw, sorry about that large picture of the Poodle, I don't know how to re-size it because it's from a direct link on some website..


----------



## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Grazer said:


> The Labradoodle on the previous page doesn't looks like a purebred groomed Poodle to me at all...


My point was that a groomer can easily sculpt a Poodle out of all that fur and most pet owners with an untrained eye would believe it was a purebred Poodle. I didnt say it looked like a Purebred Poodle with the grown out head and shaggy coat. I worked for a Ch Poodle exhibitor for 5 years, lol.


----------



## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Carter could easily look like a poodle if his muzzle was shaved, at least to the average person. I like standard poodles.

As for a watchdog, just about any dog will bark. Figure out how big of a dog you want. 40 pounds, 50 pounds, 60 pounds? How much time do you want to spend exercising it? You probably want a low energy dog with a big bark and enough sense to alert bark, but not bark at every squirrel and falling leaf. Look around, there is probably a nice dog that someone is giving away.


----------



## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

Haven said:


> My point was that a groomer can easily sculpt a Poodle out of all that fur and most pet owners with an untrained eye would believe it was a purebred Poodle. I didnt say it looked like a Purebred Poodle with the grown out head and shaggy coat. I worked for a Ch Poodle exhibitor for 5 years, lol.


Gotcha lol, I think when I saw you saying 99.9% of pet owners couldn't differentiate between a Labradoodle and a pure bred Poodle, I was like hey I can ound: 

But I completely agree, these mixes are all about marketing. Personally what bothers me about Australian Labradoodles the most is how a lot of breeders (not sure if that's still the case?) will spay/neuter their puppies by 8 weeks of age....


----------



## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

The best all around dog I had was a medium sized Beagle. She knew WHO was a friend, who wasn't (and barked appropriately), played with kids, didn't bother cats, kept unwanted critters away. 

As far as she was concerned, someone who deserved one woof! in the daytime received MANY at night, and a stranger was always a stranger to her, no matter what they did.

Mon


----------



## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

Haven said:


> WF, he looks to have a poodle coat that is simply too thick and cottony, like many. I always wish I could perform an experiment and take a randomly bred purebred Standard Poodle and one of these Poodle mixes, groom the Doodle mix in a traditional Standard Poodle pattern, then line it up next to the purebred and ask people to pick out the Poodle. Guarantee that 99.9% of pet owners would say they are both Poodles as long as they couldnt see the slightly longer tail on the mix.
> 
> Those mixes are all about marketting and being groomed like a mutt, instead of a correct Poodle pattern. Even a Doodle mix with a very bad coat can still be fluffed out by a groomer and sculpted into a Poodle.


Totally agree so many people think they know breedds and know not much at all! One time I was grooming my Std Poo at the corp store I worked at when a man came in and proceded to tell me he was a purebred Labradoodle cause he knew all about the breed. He continued to argue with me when I informed him the dog was a purebred show quality Std!!!

And even more fun DH was walking our Parti coloured Std Poo when a woman driving by stopped her car and asked him if she was a Dalmation! She was in a historical show clip so she had HAIR and he explained to her what she was and after all that she replied"Oh she is a pretty doig are you SURE she isn't a Dalmation?"


----------



## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

I can top that. I was asked if my Scottish Deerhound was a llama.

Also misidentified as a Rottweiler. The llama I can almost see, but a Rottweiler?


----------

