# pouring a concrete footing from a mixer



## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Has anyone here built a footing by mixing the concrete on site with a mixer? 

In order to save some money I would like to build a footing that is 2' wide and 6" thick. It would have rebar set in the footing just like one poured from a truck. I thought that at the end of each day I would leave the end really rough or maybe even make a key way so the new concrete would have lots of surface to grab onto.

Also, in order to reuse the footing boards I though I would put a layer of tar paper between the concrete and the wood.


----------



## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

Not a good idea. Too many cold seams would be disastrous. Also why such a thin-6" thick- footing?


----------



## melli (May 7, 2016)

I've poured pads using a mixer. How long is the footing? You would end up with cold joints after every day...that worry depends on what the footing is for, the soil it is sitting on, drainage, etc. 
I wouldn't worry too much about peeling boards off and reusing. You can use a concrete form release agent, oil or just give the boards a good soaking spray with water before placing concrete. With footings, you can gently peel them off the next day, knock off the stuff stuck to edge, and reuse. 
For me, it depends on how much concrete is involved. Anything over 20cuft (~60 bags worth), and I am definitely calling a truck. Concrete isn't all that expensive off a truck, relative to the labor of mixing it by hand. Cold joints can be a problem, especially on soft wet soils. And depending on water PH, can wick into cold joints, and corrode the rebar.


----------



## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Each side of the footing would be 30'. The house will be single story with no attic so it will be relatively light.

Aside from saving money I'm also not sure that I could keep up with pouring from a truck.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It has been a long time since I have priced concrete from the truck but every time I ever have there hasn’t been much difference in cost. 
How much is concrete from the truck versus self mixed?


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

The way I understand it concrete will support a 45° pressure spread. 
So With a 8 inch block Setting on 6 inches of concrete there’s no point to making the footing more than 20 inches wide. (6+8+6=20) To affectively use 24 inch wide footings they need to be at least 8 inches thick.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I agree. It is not worth the money you might save to produce an inferior footing. Back in the 90's when I built my first home I did the footings and wall myself but I had the concrete come in by truck. Even that is a lot of work. Save money somewhere else.


----------



## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Yes it could be done, but I would advise strongly against it. For starters, 6" is pretty thin for a footing, I'd go 12" thickness.

If you're buying bagged concrete, one 80# bag only provides approx. 0.6 cubic feet of concrete, so it would take (100) bags to pour a footing 1' deep x 2' wide x 30' long. 

Creating your own mix is cheaper, you buy a load of "gravel mix" delivered from the local gravel pit then add X number of shovels of Portland cement for every X number of shovels of gravel mix, then X gallons of water. Tough to get a real high quality mix like this, but have seen a few folks do it. If you do go the hand mixed route, get a big crew together for pour day so you can have a couple guys on the mixer, somebody running wheelbarrows to the pour and somebody at the pour placing and finishing. You need to keep the concrete coming fast so you don't have cold joints.

Much easier to bite the bullet and order ready mixed concrete delivered. Hand mixing makes a whole lot more sense on really small pours.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I have a cement mixer that mounts on the three point hitch of a tractor it would work really well for what you are wanting to do I think. I’m sure there are more of them around if you have a tractor


----------



## weaselfire (Feb 7, 2018)

What do your codes require? Mixing your own is quite possible. But when you realize the savings in time, and possibly cost, you'll order ready mix.

Jeff


----------



## melli (May 7, 2016)

fishhead said:


> Each side of the footing would be 30'. The house will be single story with no attic so it will be relatively light.
> 
> Aside from saving money I'm also not sure that I could keep up with pouring from a truck.


Ideally, you need a hand or two to pour off a truck...if truck can get right up to site and chute it into forms, just one hand is required or if you are stout, you can do it (you have to hustle). Truck can move down sides. 

Is there going to be a pony wall on top of footings? How wide/tall? If yes, and wall is short, I would do it all at once (footings/wall in one pour). 

I've always been a do-it-yourselfer, but when it comes to concrete, the more hands on deck, makes life bearable (love what it does, but truly hate working with it). I poured my footings (36x20 perimeter, 2'x10"??? footings) with one hand...wish I had another. Truck couldn't get down sides, so wheelbarrows were involved (truck could get to one end, so the final bit was off chute into forms). 
Ia agree with others here...6" is a little thin.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

My experience with concrete is that if it is more than a sidewalk or compact slab I’ll call for a truck. Very little money saved vs feeling like your one guy trying to spin 10 plates.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Good grief handle that much concrete by hand and you are gonna feel like you were beat up by 10 men. 
Notice nobody even spoken word about mixing that much concrete by hand


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

MN state building codes require footers to be 42" deep in the southern part of the state and 60" in the northern part of tye state. If you put the footers at only 6" the first frost would heave it and break it. Then your building would be on the ground or out of level. 

To answer your question though, yes I have. My neighbor was an old concrete guy from way back. I was only 13 at the time. He ordered sand gravel and cement and made his own recipe. About 2 months ago a truck ran into it. Poor truck is all I can say about it. I don't remember the recipe though. They still had engineers and slump and break tests back in his day and he passed consistently he said. They hand mixed in a 1 yard mixer. I am sure you can find one online for a do it yourself. Not sure I would trust it much though.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

fishhead said:


> Each side of the footing would be 30'. The house will be single story with no attic so it will be relatively light.
> 
> Aside from saving money I'm also not sure that I could keep up with pouring from a truck.


Yes, you could use cold joints, they recommend not less than 15 ft. between them though. So at 30 ft long you'd have to get half a side done at a time. And if you go deeper than 6 inches, which I definitely would, that's a whole lotta concrete to mix whether by hand or a mixer. I think you'd soon realize that keeping up with a truck on a pour like that is easier than you think. All you need is a friend or two and you'd knock it all out in a day with time left to have a beer or twelve.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Have you priced detention time?


----------



## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I will be building my home in a new place so there won't be any help. My plan is to put down the footings and then dry stack a 4' wall that can be insulated from the outside.

I will be mixing it in a gas or electric powered mixer.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I live in a poured concrete home, so I have a little experience with it...

Order your concrete 'A Little Wet' and it will pretty much self level with gravity.
Drive some rebar pins on the form floor every 4-5 feet, and have a straight piece of 2"x6" at least 6' long so it reaches between pins.
Mark the form with spray paint so you can find the pins under concrete.
Pins driven down until the heads are the top level or where your foundation needs to be.
When cement reaches the top of the pin, move the truck to the next section.
A shovel man and gravity will do most of the work.

I like to have a little pile, just a little above footer grade and push it along with the shovel or board so the form gets fill all the way up.
Pushing a shovel or two full is MUCH easier than trying to bucket or wheel barrow in more cement when you find a low spot...

I would make the footer a little thicker and forget rebar...
There is only two kinds of concrete, has cracked, is going to crack.
Control the cracking, and omitting rebar that will rust and crack the concrete is a good start.

If you have wet/swampy ground, use the sealer panels outside the concrete, inside the form and pour right up against the sealer.

Move any dirt or construction junk back away from the footer so the truck can get right next to the footer. This saves a crap load of time since you won't have to keep adding chutes, dropping chutes, it won't take two chute guys for the up/down, around & around gymnastics.

Keep everything, including rubbernecking idiots off the forms.
(Every dimwit will stand on the forms if you don't watch them! It's not a 'Form' anymore if it's not level and/or true.
Use something several inches taller than the forms as abutments on both sides and build a bridge across the form if you have to wheel barrow any concrete.

Bubble/beam levels lie over distance.
Strings help, but can still lie.
In a 30' square you might get away with a beam level...
I just paid the $30 to rent a laser level and receiver/pole, got my forms level and pins level the last time, just too handy/easy for $30.

I'm sure this will have everyone throwing a fit,
Ask the driver if he sees any issues with your work, and take his advise.
He's seen more concrete poured than you will in a lifetime, and he's seen every contractor's short cut, can spot mistakes in a minute or two.
TIP THE DRIVER! That encourages him not to bill you for being slow, and it encourages him to help out when it's not technically his job to do so...

If you have a problem spot in the driveway or want a cement slab for something (like porch steps or air conditioner) have that form ready with one side that will move for any excess concrete. A 'Cold' seam under an AC unit or precast porch steps won't hurt a thing.
No sense in sending concrete back or dumping it on the ground randomly after you paid for it.

Notice no where did I say to try and hand mix the concrete?
I had a 3 yard mixer for my first build and it was the most frustrating thing I had tried to that point...
Cement was hardening in the bags due to weather, I couldn't get the mixer to the pour site and a big mixer runs wheel barrows over in a flash.
My first, and last big pour, I learned my lesson...


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

I gotta agree with Jeephammer. I've done both - off a truck and using a mixer. It's not the cold joints that'll git ya, it's what your back will be screaming at you on the 2nd day, lol.
If you got the biggest one you could find, it'll still take about 6 mixer loads per side although I used 12 inch deep footers and not the 6 inches in your op. How many bags will that take? They all have to be picked up a few times and loaded before it becomes ready to pour. Now multiply that by 4 sides and unless you're a strapping 20 year old in his prime, believe me you'd rather just watch it pour out of a chute and make sure it's level as you go. That's something you can do by yourself if you don't have any help. You might find that you can get all the footings poured and finished in one day versus days and days of busting your backside and it probably won't cost any more either.
Think about it for a while and even try it out if you have to be convinced.


----------



## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> MN state building codes require footers to be 42" deep in the southern part of the state and 60" in the northern part of tye state. If you put the footers at only 6" the first frost would heave it and break it. Then your building would be on the ground or out of level...


Actually, there are many, many homes, garages, and cabins that are built in Minnesota on what's called a "floating slab." Floating slabs have a rather shallow footing around their perimeters.


----------



## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

I'm wondering if the footing could be put in dry? The reason I am wondering is about 35 years ago, I built a two story concrete block/clay flue chimney on a dry-packed footing. That's a tremendous amount of weight on a small area. The last time I looked, the chimney was still there and as straight as an arrow.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

fishhead said:


> Has anyone here built a footing by mixing the concrete on site with a mixer?
> 
> In order to save some money I would like to build a footing that is 2' wide and 6" thick. It would have rebar set in the footing just like one poured from a truck. I thought that at the end of each day I would leave the end really rough or maybe even make a key way so the new concrete would have lots of surface to grab onto.
> 
> Also, in order to reuse the footing boards I though I would put a layer of tar paper between the concrete and the wood.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

I have done it, when I couldn't get a truck to the site. Make the footing wider and deeper than you normally would. And paint the boards with used motor oil, they won't stick. We used a mixer mounted on a three point hitch, backed up and poured directly into the trench.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

If you can get a three point hitch mounted cement mixer you can load all of your cement and your aggregate into it directly from the back of a pick up truck you can mix it and pour it from the cement mixer directly into your form and that will save you a ton of work. 
Well actually literally tons of work


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Do you have a tractor and a site where you could use it?


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Cabin Fever said:


> Actually, there are many, many homes, garages, and cabins that are built in Minnesota on what's called a "floating slab." Floating slabs have a rather shallow footing around their perimeters.


Yes we do that here too but I thought the op was just talking a 6" deep x 24" wide beam. I have never seen a beam that shallow. 

How do the floating slabs work up that way? Do they have issues with them? We do with ours and we don't even really have a frost line to speak of.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Cabin Fever said:


> I'm wondering if the footing could be put in dry? The reason I am wondering is about 35 years ago, I built a two story concrete block/clay flue chimney on a dry-packed footing. That's a tremendous amount of weight on a small area. The last time I looked, the chimney was still there and as straight as an arrow.



Dammit man! That's not a bad idea.
That's one of the things I appreciate about this site, getting a different perspective or experience that just might come in handy one day.
I'm about to build a pole barn for a workshop soon and was trying to figure out the cheapest and easiest way to do the floor/foundation and footings if I wanted something better than dirt, lol.
Like the OP, I'm basically a 1 man crew, not necessarily by choice all the time.
Your dry footing idea made me think about a way I could use concrete blocks laid in a footer trench and then using a mixer to pour in on top of it, still getting pretty solid foundation but needing less concrete to mix and handle.
It won't be perfect like a monolithic pour but good enough for me. Like one guy said, there's 2 kinds of concrete, cracked and gonna crack, lol.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Galvanized Coated rebar is worth the price.


----------



## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

farmrbrown said:


> Dammit man! That's not a bad idea.
> That's one of the things I appreciate about this site, getting a different perspective or experience that just might come in handy one day.
> I'm about to build a pole barn for a workshop soon and was trying to figure out the cheapest and easiest way to do the floor/foundation and footings if I wanted something better than dirt, lol.
> Like the OP, I'm basically a 1 man crew, not necessarily by choice all the time.
> ...


My dry footing was a concrete mix that was only slightly moist. It was shoveled into the form like dirt. Each six inch layer was packed. There was re-rod in the form, but no blocks. It allowed me to start stacking the chimney block right away. If I had used a wet concrete mix, I would have had to wait about 3 weeks before I could have started building the chimney.


----------



## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> Yes we do that here too but I thought the op was just talking a 6" deep x 24" wide beam. I have never seen a beam that shallow.
> 
> How do the floating slabs work up that way? Do they have issues with them? We do with ours and we don't even really have a frost line to speak of.


I have never had an issue with a floating slab. A base of sand and/or gravel is placed below the slab before it is poured. Often, fiberglass-reinforced concrete is used for the slab.


----------



## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Cabin Fever said:


> I'm wondering if the footing could be put in dry? The reason I am wondering is about 35 years ago, I built a two story concrete block/clay flue chimney on a dry-packed footing. That's a tremendous amount of weight on a small area. The last time I looked, the chimney was still there and as straight as an arrow.


I worked on a pole barn and we dumped a bag of Sackcrete in each pole hole. My boss said that it would absorb enough water from the soil over time.


----------



## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Do you have a tractor and a site where you could use it?


No equipment. I don't even have a mixer yet.


----------



## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Cabin Fever said:


> My dry footing was a concrete mix that was only slightly moist. It was shoveled into the form like dirt. Each six inch layer was packed. There was re-rod in the form, but no blocks. It allowed me to start stacking the chimney block right away. If I had used a wet concrete mix, I would have had to wait about 3 weeks before I could have started building the chimney.


Are you suggesting that I could fill the forms with dry concrete mix? That would be even better than mixing it with water because I assume that would increase the time it takes to set so I could get a side filled in a day without worrying about a cold joint.

If it would help I could dampen the sand before putting it into the mixer.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You know you don’t have to have a poured concrete footing. If you pack the ground good hard and level you can build it up from poured blocks. 
You can even top that with a poured 8 inch wide footing top to level things up.


----------



## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> You know you don’t have to have a poured concrete footing. If you pack the ground good hard and level you can build it up from poured blocks.
> You can even top that with a poured 8 inch wide footing top to level things up.


If I understand you correctly I would pack the ground and make it flat like a footing and then stack blocks on top of it with the first layer filled with concrete? If that's the case I suppose a guy could use the blocks with the knock off tabs like are used on the top layer of some walls. They knock them off with a hammer and then lay the tabs in the channel created. They they fill that channel up with concrete mix and rebar.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I was thinking something like 2 rows 12x12x4 inch solids side by side topped with a row 8x16 x4 solids cross wise then a row longways centered. 
All solid blocks. 
Then a normal hollow block wall from there on up.


----------



## Dirt-Road-Poor (Feb 7, 2017)




----------



## paulagracero (5 mo ago)

When deciding to pour a concrete footing, you can either hire a company or do it yourself. You will save a lot of money by doing it yourself but it is way more complicated than you think.


----------



## IceOneBro (5 mo ago)

The most economical way to pour a concrete footing is to rent a mixer truck with the necessary water tank and pump. This approach has the added advantage of mixing the concrete in a centrally located and accessible location rather than bringing it to the footing site in smaller quantities by hand. The only materials you need are cement, sand, gravel, water, and aggregate (optional). You can get all that you need from https://www.concreteservicesdenver.com/. And also, the guys from there could help you with all the process.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Cold joints aren't that big of a deal. What about all of the cold joints in a rock house, or a brick house. I poured a footing for a cabin in Creed Colorado in the early 80's. The mixer mounted to the 3 point hitch on a tractor and ran off the power takeoff. It took us four days to finish. I go by there every ten years or so, and that cabin is still standing, and housing guests every summer. Of course it is buried under eight feet of snow every winter, so that might help insulate those cold joints.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

AmericanStand said:


> Notice nobody even spoken word about mixing that much concrete by hand


My dad built a basement for our new house when I was a kid. He laid the cinder blocks, and I mixed every bit of the mortar in a wheel barrow with a garden hoe. I wouldn't want to have to do that today.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

There's slightly less than 5 - 80 lb bags of concrete mix in a cu yd, and a bag goes for a little over $5 a bag, so DIY is about $25 a yd. Las time I needed Redi-Mix, it was $135/yd + delivery costs.

Is (was) your hard labor worth $110 a yd to you?

My immigrant grandfather was a laborer in the 19-teens- 1940s running three mixers at once before the days of Redi-Mix, building most of the new housing on the northside of Chicago in those years. As I think back, he looked at 60 what I'll look like at 80...But he still thought it was easier than peasant farming in the Ukraine without mechanization.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

doc- said:


> There's slightly less than 5 - 80 lb bags of concrete mix in a cu yd, and a bag goes for a little over $5 a bag, so DIY is about $25 a yd. Las time I needed Redi-Mix, it was $135/yd + delivery costs.
> 
> Is (was) your hard labor worth $110 a yd to you?
> 
> My immigrant grandfather was a laborer in the 19-teens- 1940s running three mixers at once before the days of Redi-Mix, building most of the new housing on the northside of Chicago in those years. As I think back, he looked at 60 what I'll look like at 80...But he still thought it was easier than peasant farming in the Ukraine without mechanization.


A yard of concrete is cubic yards. That means 27 cubic feet. That equals 45 bags of Sacrete at 5 dollars a pop. That equals 225 dollars a cubic yard.

I can't count on 2 hands the ones that got that figure wrong and lived to regret it all the way to the bank and the chiropractor.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> A yard of concrete is cubic yards. That means 27 cubic feet. That equals 45 bags of Sacrete at 5 dollars a pop. That equals 225 dollars a cubic yard.
> 
> I can't count on 2 hands the ones that got that figure wrong and lived to regret it all the way to the bank and the chiropractor.


That was actually what i thought, but I searched it and several sites claimed the number stated above....I just put 2 bags in a hole to anchor a 12 ft pipe-- they filled a 12 inch hole ~ 2 ft deep-- ~6cu ft or 6/27 = <1/4 cu yd -- 8 bags to a yd ..???


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

doc- said:


> That was actually what i thought, but I searched it and several sites claimed the number stated above....I just put 2 bags in a hole to anchor a 12 ft pipe-- they filled a 12 inch hole ~ 2 ft deep-- ~6cu ft or 6/27 = <1/4 cu yd -- 8 bags to a yd ..???


I am one of those ones that I can count on my hands. VFD wanted me to help pour a 5 yard pad for a diesel tank. About 200 bags later we were done. Of course, all the help that was supposed to show up had other plans. I swore I would never again do that. 😓

My neighbor as a teen was just like your grandfather. I helped him pour many many yards of concrete by hand. I wished I had paid more attention to his formula. He used sand, gravel and 40 pound bags of straight cement. The guy that bought his place had to use a D8 dozer to tear down the retainer wall we built. It was very tough concrete that would have passed any test for bridge concrete.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

1 ft x 2 ft is 2 cubic feet or 2/27 of a cubic yard.


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

I'm glad I have a concrete plant two miles away!!! A four x five for HVAC unit takes 9 bags plus putting in some broken bricks. That's as much as I will do...


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> 1 ft x 2 ft is 2 cubic feet or 2/27 of a cubic yard.


V = A x h = Pi x(o .05)^2 x 2 = 1.57--- one bag would be ~0.8cu f--- 27/0,8 = ~34 bags/yd; @ $5/yd, that's $170 per yrd.

My first post was way off. My second wasn't quite as wrong. Judging by my record, this one has no better than a 2 out of 3 chance of being wrong too.

Do I qualify for a seat in Congress yet?


----------



## Pobept75 (6 mo ago)

fishhead said:


> Has anyone here built a footing by mixing the concrete on site with a mixer?
> 
> In order to save some money I would like to build a footing that is 2' wide and 6" thick. It would have rebar set in the footing just like one poured from a truck. I thought that at the end of each day I would leave the end really rough or maybe even make a key way so the new concrete would have lots of surface to grab onto.
> 
> Also, in order to reuse the footing boards I though I would put a layer of tar paper between the concrete and the wood.


A daily pour will have weak seams that will separate when water enters the seems and freezes. Water can also migrate down your rebar causing your footing to crack and disintegrate with time.


----------



## Rajjayme (4 mo ago)

That’s another proof of the fact that everything should be delegated to specialists. Wow, TripleD, I wish I had a concrete plant nearby too. As for hiring specialists, I think it’s a must while building or repairing something. They actually studied to help you fix your breaking, so why not use this option. We’re not living in that time when a man is a man if he fixes everything himself. A man is a man if he knows who to ask for help. You know, I have a friend who is one of the best masonry contractors Odessa TX. He studied to become an engineer. Once, he was told that a real engineer is a person who knows how and where to find everything but not how to fix anything. That’s what I think.


----------



## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Our home is in a location that no concrete company would send a truck due to the grade and roughness of the trail. The footings had to be mixed on site and the foundation was filled block. I'd never want to go through that again. But the crew who did that part of the job had a ball. They worked their butts off on long days and partied hard at night, staying in tents on site and cooking their meals with camping equipment. Night time showers from a hose. They said they've not had as fun of a project that they could remember (if other projects were night time parties like this one I know why). But their work was top notch. A crew of 4 for the footings with 3 mixers running continuously all day. After that cured they came back with one less laborer and two block layers. And then filled the block. Fortunately it was a crawl space so 4 course on one side, 6 on the low side and the footing was stepped. The inside had pony walls to bear the weight. And, my gosh, its a small place. The Super was the oldest guy on the job, the hardest worker and definitely could out party the younger guys.

When they came back for the block phase several guys brought firearms. But the Super said they'd be fired of they pulled a trigger for anything but defending themselves. When the job was done it restored my faith that union workers can still be exceptional. I'm a card holder in a different craft and I really had to see this to believe it.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Pobept75 said:


> A daily pour will have weak seams that will separate when water enters the seems and freezes. Water can also migrate down your rebar causing your footing to crack and disintegrate with time.


Redi-mix didn't become available until the 1950s...My grandfather was renowned in the 10s-50s on the NW side of Chicago for being able to keep three concrete mixers & six laborers with wheelbarrows going by himself on a foundation pour. Those buildings are still standing 100 yrs later in an area with a very high water table....

...but if you're working by yourself in a remote location, maybe you will have problems with continuity.


----------



## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)




----------



## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)




----------



## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Skilled people are important.


----------

