# Ram lamb weak and limping, swollen knees after castration



## notasnowballs (Dec 28, 2010)

He was fine for a few days after castration. We did the knife method, not my personal choice, but hubby made the decision. We are all in agreement to band next time. 

Four days after he was castrated and tail docked, he started limping and favoring the right front foot. I checked him over real good and there is no foot issue or knee issue, and no injury or cut that I can see. He still runs, he still eats, but he lays down a lot and would rather not get up. He's getting weaker. 

I did some reading and it sounded like tetanus, because I notice his two front knees are looking bigger, or knobbier. I made a tetrycyline water solution and made it stronger than the dosage and stuffed it down him, and am monitoring. My thinking was, that if it is tetanus, well like with people, they give you a shot of what- pennicillan. So that's what he got, but in oral form, not by needle. I am not seeing a tetanus shot here in the farm stores, anyways, and the vet says, as always "Bring him in and bring your pocketbook. Gee, I hope your pocketbook is deep." 

I am expecting to lose the lamb. But I will keep trying to save him. Sigh...


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Here's are some links. Tetanus Antitoxin Colorado Serum (Equine - Vaccines - Tetanus)

Livestock health - Tetanus in sheep and goats

Not sure if it is too late, but I would consult a vet asap. Was the lamb vaccinated before castrating?


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## notasnowballs (Dec 28, 2010)

I think I will go back to just lurking. Thanks for the input. The lamb is actually doing better. More doses of tetrycycline in what I guess people call a "drench". Also putting comfrey on the knees and it is bringing it down. He's up and running around.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Injectable antibiotics would be better and an anti-inflamitory (that can be asprin orally ) Sounds like joint ill. You could vaccinate with an 8 way cattle vaccine or a CDT vaccine and yeah it might help a bit now.


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## notasnowballs (Dec 28, 2010)

I found a vet that isn't a money grubber and is an actual human! It only took me two years... Ya, vets gotta pay the rent too, but DANG... when did it become so expensive to keep animals? 

Anyways... I got a prescription for $14 for two shots of Exceed, a stronger antibiotic, and vet agrees with what I am seeing and what I am hearing here and online. He's got an infection going on and the tetrycycline orally isn't cuttin' it. Also, the little ram is getting skinny because his mom appears to not be letting him eat anymore. Joy. So we're off to the store and the vet to go get milk replacer to help him out and get those shots. Sigh... There is NO WAY I'm going to break even if I manage to sell this ram.


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## notasnowballs (Dec 28, 2010)

What I'm wanting to know now, is if I will be able to sell or eat this ram later and try to recoup some of my investment back. I know with drugs you have to wait a period of time before the animal can be consumed. He's only 3 weeks old now. I was thinking he would either grow up and go on our dinner table, or be sold, as weaned wether lambs are going for $100-150 in our area right now.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

The meds will be out of his system long before he'll be ready to eat, so yes, (probably) if you can cure him he will still be edible. He'll never get organic status and there are drugs out there that might relegate him to pet status (nitrofurasone comes to mind, not for food producing animals) Excede seems to be a swine medication (your vet can prescribe off label that's fine) so you should ask him or her what if any the contraindications are.


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## notasnowballs (Dec 28, 2010)

Interesting. On the prescription, it said it was bovine. I also picked up the CDT vaccination at the farm store and hit the mom with that one while I was doing shots. Surprisingly, the CDT vaccination was the cheapest, at about ten bucks for the bottle. The bottle does 28 doses and keeps in the fridge for up to two years. I have four sheep total, so this will keep a while. I guess if I want organic status (I'm laughing now...) I'm going to have to be a lot richer, or a lot more knowledgeable. LOL


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## finnsheep (May 23, 2012)

I have not yet met a farm vet who was a money grubber- yes, I am sure that some exist. But you have to realize that most vets, especially farm vets, do not make that much money. The education is extremely expensive, and licenses, including prescription licenses, plus insurance, are through the roof in cost. Gas prices are high, and even a $75 farm call doesn't always pay for the gas and truck expenses (think 11 miles to the gallon gas consumption and then make that pay for both ways). Also the pharm companies charge what they charge for meds- you don't have much of a choice when you have to buy them. They need to keep up with education and books and newer equipment as necessary. Then consider that not only do they have to pay for all this to keep their business running, they also have to feed, clothe, and keep the house warm for their families, taxes, etc. Nothing is cheap now.

They tend to work long hours and they are not paid anywhere near what M.D.'s are paid, even though they probably work much harder than most.

Also: tetanus is much more prevalent in banded sheep than surgically castrated. The reason for this is tetanus bacteria is anaerobic- it cannot survive in the presence of oxygen. The banded scrotum dies, creating an anaerobic environment that is absolutely perfect for tetanus. Since the surgical wound is open, it is highly unlikely to encourage tetanus. Sheep and any other livestock should not be castrated with any method without being immunized properly against tetanus.

Once the scrotum drops off from banding, there is an open wound, and it is just as susceptible to infection as the surgical wound is, and it takes just as long to heal.

Shepherds should inspect any lambs castrated or docked by any method every day to ensure wounds are healing without infection. Of course, they should be kept in as clean an environment as possible, for a barnyard environment anyway! 

CD/T is not supposed to be stored long after opening. It does not last and it will not be effective. It might generate some immunity but there is no point in vaccinating a sheep if you can't be reasonably sure that they are properly immunized. Perhaps you can share a vial with another sheep, cattle, or goat farmer and use it all up right away, but it isn't wise to store the bottle for years and years.

Be sure that you give sheep with questionable vaccination status a booster about 3-4 weeks after the first injection, as well as lambs.

I am very glad your lamb is doing well and best wishes for continued sheep success!


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## notasnowballs (Dec 28, 2010)

Well, I am sure wanting to meet that vet that only charges $75 for a farm visit. Maybe cost is different in different areas? If I could get a vet to only charge $75 and STICK to that, not charge so much per mile after ten miles away from their office, that would be great, and I would have them out here in a minute. By the way, the only vet that works on farm animals and not just poodles around here is about... an hour drive away? Something like that. I get it that they got to make a living, and I should not have been derogatory in my use of words. I was just a bit frustrated. To someone who is living below the national poverty level and qualifies for food stamps, but is trying desperately to NOT be on that welfare system (sucking on the government tit, I HATE it! Don't wanna be there. Want to eat my own food that has the stuff in it that I know what that stuff is, and ... ok, my soapbox rant is for another discussion entirely... sorry about that.), it's really frustrating and that money going to the vet... comes from something else, like the feed bill, or the power bill, or whether or not I get to seed my WHOLE garden so we can have abundant food this summer to put up. Seriously, the only thing we have going for us is that we have a chunk of land that is paid for free and clear. I'm trying to make that work for us, but it's uphill all the way. But you're right, I should not have said "moneygrubber". It's just frustrating when you're determining if there's going to be enough gas for hubby to get to work for the next week. But, I guess since I have internet and a computer... Actually, my kid homeschools, so that's why we took that expense. She was flunking and getting left behind in public school and they wouldn't let me come in and be part of the process, but they sure wanted to bust her behind... Totally unrelated. Ugh... I feel like I have to defend myself, and I just wanted to get useful information. I better shut up now. Maybe delete and come back when not on emotional level. My apologies. Am not usually so easily bothered by stuff online. 

Anyways, there are choices we make and in trying to survive in a way that is suitable, and not just "survive", it seems that some folks that aren't as rich as others are funneled into a certain way of living and eating. It really bugs me. But the American way is based on hard work and ingenuity and self sufficiency... at least that's how my grandparents did it. Somewhere we got lost along the way, probably about the time Xbox was invented. LOL Oh crud, there I go on my soapbox again. 

I go online seeking information to learn, much like others, so that I can do this venture on my own to feed my family and maybe someday make a little side living, if I can ever keep them alive long enough. Slapping self. Time to knock it off with the soapbox again, or is it a pity party? Either way, NOT good. 

The lamb has been administered the shot that the vet prescribed, 2 shots given at 4 days apart. I am bottle feeding him as well and he's not as skinny. He is, however, still limping and has the swollen knee on that leg. When I put a comfrey compress on it, it brings the knee down, but the next day it is back up again. He doesn't seem to have any type of reaction when I squeeze it, so I don't know that it's causing him pain. There has never been any heat in it. Also, there is no sign of infection and has been no sign of infection in his tail docking or his castration site. It's been a couple weeks now since we did tails and castration. He runs pretty fast, but I can still catch him. His sister is nice and fat, and he is not. 

I discovered, on watching the lambs, that the mom sniffs the ewe lamb's rear when they line up to nurse, and pushes the ewe toward her udder. Then she sniffs the ram's rear when he lines up to nurse, then walks away and won't let him nurse. Thus, the bottle feeding. I have been trying, with little success, to milk mom to get her milk in him, so when he poops it out, she smells her smell on him and will let him nurse, so I don't have to keep bottle feeding. I figured out how to get milk out of her, and there is plenty of it. But now the other critters or the ewe herself will knock the container over (invariable always after I have it just about full... sigh...) , so that is just figuring out how to either get her up on the milk stand ( WWF wrestling), or milk her in the field but protect my container (still WWF wrestling, but not as bad). 

Am considering the tetrycycline oral again, just because I have it, and it will be a week before I can go back to the vet again for another type of shot. That's when payday is. 

The CDT vaccine isn't a package that is "opened", it's one of those glass bottles with the rubber top that you shove a syringe into, so it stays sealed, and on the bottle it says it stores for 2 years. So that is not correct? Or it stores for 2 years before you use it all, haven't shoved a syringe in it at all, completely unopened... then after you stick a syringe in it it has to be all used up or disposed of, if I understand correctly? 

Ah well, hubby is getting mad at me because there is a church potluck today and he is making rabbit stew, and it is my job to do the "deed" with the three rabbits set aside. He's thinking I'm just screwing off on the internet again, so I need to get out there and help him and get the other critters fed and whatnot, so he thinks I'm actually doing something.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Ok, hope you enjoyed the pot luck dinner I haven't had rabbit stew/casserole or roasted for years and it sure is yummy.

I have to agree with Finn about vets but I can also see where your coming from. We live 19kms from out vet clinic. We are charged $38.00 in mileage and $40.00 "call-out" which is fair enough as a vet driving a vehicle for 38kms isn't doing much with the 40 minutes it takes to drive that distance. So roughly what Finn has said although it is obviously going to depend on distance. My vet once told me what his Student Loan debt was and I've forgotten but it staggered me. He's 37 and still paying off his education which is to my benefit. It made me look at vets and their charges a little differently. I also take the attitude that every time a vet comes here, I learn something.

Exceed is an extremely good AB but I have only ever used it on cattle. When you see your vet on pay day ask him about Engemycin which is Oxytetrcycline. While this is for cattle, pigs, sheep and horses, it is my preference for sheep. However, bear in mind that the delay in getting AB's into this lamb may have a long-terms effect in that his legs may never come right completely. I suspect that he has fluid in those joints and is something else you may like to make a note of to ask the vet.

Your CDT vaccine will be fine if kept in the fridge and will last to it's expiry date. I have a few more sheep than you and on the day of vaccinating I even take it to the yards on ice and if there is a delay in the vaccinating process, it goes back on ice until things are sorted out. The rubber bung on the top of your bottle is self-sealing once the syringe is pulled out and is designed to keep air out so you will be able to use your bottle up to it's expiry date without fear.

Your ewe probably won't accept the lamb back at this late stage of it and ewes can be really pig-headed about this. I don't even try anymore and because I milk cows I'm not looking at the expense of buying in lamb replacer. If the ewe will let you milk her and your prepared to do so, use two containers and milk into one until it's say half-full and then tip it into another and put it up high so nothing can knock it over. That way you might end up with a decent amount of milk I do this with first-calvers otherwise I would have a very white concrete floor and an empty bucket.

Good luck with your little chap. And try to remember it's one of the learning curves that most of us go through and holds us in good stead the next time it happens.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## LibertyWool (Oct 23, 2008)

In the US injectable Oxytetrcycline comes under several names like LA-200 or Duramycin 72-200. It can be bought at many feed store and is not expensive (I think I paid $14 for a ML bottle last time) . 

I think it can also be challenging to find vets that will work on (and know about) sheep hear in the US. I luckily have a great set of vets that are reasonably priced ($45 farm call, $2 per min). Although, some of the state regs drive me crazy and cost me $$, but that is not the vets fault. 

I have also had a couple of bad vet experiences, mostly when I was starting out. So I've learned to do most everything myself, but when I come up against something that I can't do, I don't hesitate to call the vet. I figure each vet call is just a learning session, and so I pay the fee. Sometimes it works and the animal recovers, sometimes it doesn't and that just sucks.


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## notasnowballs (Dec 28, 2010)

The rabbit stew went over well, surprisingly. 

This little guy looks fine and he is now so tame, he comes when he's called (Sigh... we are SUPPOSED to eat or sell him later, NOT make a pet of him. )

He just... hops around pretty fast on three legs. Still putting comfrey and feverfew on the leg and feeding him. Other than him being skinny and that knee, you would never know he's sick because he is pretty lively.


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## finnsheep (May 23, 2012)

Since the lamb was being docked at the same time he was castrated, I presume that he was quite young- a few days old maybe? Lambs can easily pick up infections via the umbilical cord. You should snip the cord pretty short, and inch or so long- with sterile scissors, after the baby is born (if still attached to mama, be sure to tie off so no hemorrhaging occurs), and then dip the cord in 7% iodine. The stuff you buy for people is nowhere near strong enough- 1% or thereabouts. Most of what you can buy at the feed store, around here at least, is 5%. That is okay, but 7% is what is really needed. Joint ill is one that may be obtained through the cord. 
I suppose your vet doesn't think that this is tetanus- I don't think so either. Fever and rigidity of muscles are symptoms of tetanus, not lameness and weakness. I suspect that he has a systemic infection (what bacteria, I have no idea). Your vet is the best one to talk to about antibiotics- please call him and ask if you are not sure. Switching between different families of antibiotics or using the wrong type of antibiotic or even too little of or not enough time with the right antibiotic will not only be of no use to the lamb and a waste of money, it will also encourage bacterial resistance. 
Ask your vet about aspirin. He can tell you the correct dosage. You can give it to him in pill form if he will eat it, crush it and mix it with his milk for a bottle feeding, etc. That will help with the inflammation. I think comfrey compresses or whatever you can do to keep the inflammation down is a good idea.
The ewe is not going to smell her own milk in his manure. She just probably doesn't like him. If you can keep her confined, having someone holding her or whatever, sometimes you will be able to get stubborn ewes to graft to their lambs. You will have to help him nurse without her kicking him, and you'll have to do this frequently. My guess though is he will need to be bottle fed. You can use her milk, milk replacer, goat's milk, etc. Remember that frequent, small feedings are better than several big meals. 
Don't write off surgical castration just because of this incident- it may not even be connected. I've had lambs with frostbite become infected. Surgical is the most effective, probably least stressful and painful, and least likely to result in tetanus. Banding's advantage is basically ease and speed. You still have an open wound once the tail or scrotum falls off, and it takes just as long to heal as the surgical wound, possibly longer.
Once the rubber seal on the vial is punctured (opened), it cannot be stored for long after. A few days, maybe a week or so, maybe a bit longer. Maybe not. But it will certainly not last until next year's vaccinations. Some vaccines may be able to be stored open for longer, but CD/T for whatever reason can't be. Tetanus and enterotoxemia are two diseases that you definitely don't want to have questionable immunity for! Now maybe, with certain brands'/companies' CD/T, it can be stored after puncturing. But the label on my vials always says not to- and that has been the opinion of all the vets I have spoken to. To me, it's not worth the risk. 
I'm sure you know this already, but always use a fresh, sterile needle to draw out vaccine or anything else. Never inject an animal and stick the needle back in the vial. This contaminates it and is probably far worse than using it past its expiration date, since it can cause and spread infections!
I hope he's feeling better! Good luck!


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## notasnowballs (Dec 28, 2010)

His knee is going down, a little more each day, and he is too fast to catch now, so I take that as an indication that he's going to live. Whew!


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