# Lab or Rotweiller?



## terri46355 (May 16, 2003)

Which breed of puppy would you get to backup your 4 year-old Lab in keeping the coyotes at bay?


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

I have owned both. If those were my two choices. I would go with the Rottweiler, it will have more power to kill a coyote.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I agree with Jason ... if those were my only choices.


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

Like the others if those were my only two choices I would go with a Rottweiler.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Agreed.
OTOH, I didn't have to make a choice.
My beautiful pound puppy from over 10 years ago is a yellow Lab/Rottie mix.
Smart, gentle, but a fierce defender when it's necessary, with the looks of a Rottie that makes everyone think twice.:happy2:


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

I'd see if I could engineer another choice.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Rottweilers are bred to go after people. Look at their big mouths and little teeth. I'd get a breed that is a known large predator killer.


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## terri46355 (May 16, 2003)

It seems my choices are not good. What breed would you suggest?


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## Barn Yarns (Oct 7, 2012)

actually rotts are HERDING dogs. they arent as hard wired anymore as the BCs and LGDs, but its still there. They date back to the days of the romans and were herding and protection dogs for the army when they were on campain. (they took their meals with them and killed them when it was meal time)

labs are retrievers.... no where near a guard dog.

I would be searching out a good Livestock Guard Dog. I have a Maremma at my place and he does well with the bears, coyotes and wolves about. My second choice was a Polish tatra. Spanish ranch mastiff is another great choice. If you can... find one that is the mix of the 3. I know 2 farms in my 'area' that have this sort of dog and they do very well with them. They both have successful breeding programs.

becareful with great pyreneese. they have had quite a bit of breeding done with them to put them into the AKC showring. there are lots out there that wont guard. not saying there arent good gp's out there that will guard, but you can get a pet or show dog too.

you can also look into dogs like the Akbash, and Anatolian. both good breeds for LDG. google livestock guard dog and you will come up with a site that talks about many of the lgds.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Actually Rottweilers are metzgerhund, which literally translates as butcher's dog. A butcher's dog is not a true herding dog (doesn't take much to push a bunch of cattle from one paddock to another or into a chute). The butcher's dog's main job is to catch & hold cattle & other large stock for the butcher to slaughter. The few rotts and their crosses that have been tried as hog catch dogs have been solid workers according to their owners.
The roman connection is a myth. First the roman war dog of choice was the Illyrian molossus which was noted by roman historians for its ferocity in battle and its WOLF LIKE APPEARANCE. Second, the soldiers didn't bring big herds of livestock or even huge quantities of food, that was handled by merchants following the armies. The armies also tended to live off the food supplies of conquered enemies & local allies/subjects. Third meat was a very small portion of the roman soldier's diet. Mutinies were recorded when circumstance required the roman soldiers to eat an all meat diet for extended periods of time.
Rotts were originally smaller & much more athletic than the hippos bred today. If you can get a throwback you'll be in pretty good shape. If not, it takes a huge amount of road work to keep them lean & fit. And any coyote caught by the average rott is 100% diseased or injured. Once you skin them a coyote is built like a greyhound & they reach greyhound speeds. Unless the coyote is completely oblivious they are extremely hard to catch in a short run except by larger faster dogs like greys & stags.
There are better choices.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

I actually think rotts make outstanding farm dogs and I am surprised not to see more playing that role. There are many reasons I would take one over a LGD as a general farm dog. Granted a rott is not going to catch a coyote, it will certainly be able to keep them off the property which I would consider keeping them at bay.If the coyotes were dumb enough to tangle with the rott they will come out on the losing end. I have seen some in person that have more talent herding then any English shepherd I have seen yet.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

I don't have a hard suggestion on breed. We got 2 Pyrs and the more I see of the breed, the more I realize we got lucky. Someone mentioned the show ring effect on the breed. I agree 100%. I've seen it with Irish Setters, Labs, Goldens, Poodles (used to be a great field dog) and the classic show ring Frankenstein- the Cocker Spaniel. A Cocker used to be a field dog, one of the finest upland game and warm weather duck dogs you could get believe it or not. Only recently have people been able to ferret out a few old style dogs and get the field breed going again. Same thing with the Irish Setter, the field version today is the Red Setter IIRC. You won't see that narrow skull and hyperactive, nipping, nasty dog of the 60's and 70's in a Red Setter.

Anyway, IF you can find a line of LGD's with a good rep as guardians, I'd look there. The Pyr has been altered and bred for show for a long time in the US. There are puppy mills turning out inferior examples too. finding one of the smaller, rarer breeds might give you a better shot at a solid LGD, but the prices are usually up there. We had a local guy with one of the rarer breeds, I don't recall which for sure, and it was a lamb killer even though he paid big bucks. Knowing what I do know, I'd start asking around with people who actually use the LGDs and who know what lines in whatever breed or breeds you consider are the best shot.

We got real lucky with ours, I hope you do too.


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## RJMAcres (Sep 9, 2009)

We have 4 great pyreneese that are used as goat and chicken guards.
Couldn't be happier with them.
Well 3 of them guard, the 4th is 13 years old and now lives in the house.

Another good option might be a catahula. Very smart, loyal and brave to a fault.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

terri46355 said:


> It seems my choices are not good. What breed would you suggest?


I spent nearly 2 years researching the various LGD breeds to find one that I thought would fit with my place. (My homestead is only 6 acres where large Nubian dairty goats and an assortment of fowl and one "family" dog...a full blood lab, named Cujo...all free-range together.) The LGD I chose was a Bulgarian Karakachan. You can find my thread about this dog and my experiences with "her" here....(A little "history" about the Karakachan breed is on page 5 or 6 of the below thread.)

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/li...3238-made-my-choice-bulgarian-karakachan.html

So, of course, my suggestion would be a Bulgarian Karakachan (from a reputable dealer). The other breed I would get should I ever get another, would be a Sarplaninac.


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

What are the coyotes trying to get at? If you have stock and good fencing, an LGD or two would be the best choice. With stock and poor fencing certain LGD's could become problematic. If no stock and no fencing and plenty of space to run (and maybe a pond or creek) Catahoulas or Catahoula Bulldogs would be my choice. If you have goats or sheep Catahoulas and Catahoula Bulldogs wouldn't be a good choice but with cows and chickens they are very good. 

Coyotes can run in packs in the South and can kill a dog or two. Depending on your situation and the severity of the problem, choose the largest dogs bred for farm utility work. A lab may be out of his league, I dunno your dog, just speculating. I've seen packs of 15 coyotes in Tennessee and also bands of feral dogs numbering half a dozen or so. If these things are a problem, get large, agile dogs that are bred for this work. Another that comes to mind is the American Bulldogs, especially the lines that come from the White English or Ol Southern Whites of the South which were bred for the farm and were able and willing to do it all. And of course be willing to care for them before they are able to care for the work you give them. Good farm dogs are a product of their breeding and a mirror of the devotion and time given them by their masters.


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## terri46355 (May 16, 2003)

Tango said:


> What are the coyotes trying to get at? If you have stock and good fencing, an LGD or two would be the best choice. With stock and poor fencing certain LGD's could become problematic. If no stock and no fencing and plenty of space to run (and maybe a pond or creek) Catahoulas or Catahoula Bulldogs would be my choice. If you have goats or sheep Catahoulas and Catahoula Bulldogs wouldn't be a good choice but with cows and chickens they are very good.
> 
> Good farm dogs are a product of their breeding and a mirror of the devotion and time given them by their masters.


We don't really need a LGD. We just want to keep the wild critters away from the yard. I worry that our 3 shih tzu's could become a meal for the coyotes. A lone coyote has been seen lurking along the fenceline by the yard and in the pastures during the day. We believe it killed several chickens that stayed in the woods during the day to do their scratching. Now the chickens are not let out until early evening. The Lab keeps watch at night, but we worry that the coyotes will gang up on him when he goes too far out.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

I think a rottweiler would work fine for what your want if that's a breed YOUR interested. You know your lifestyle best, don't be persuaded to get a dog breed you don't want.


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

With the additional details I agree with Jason. A Rottie is probably a good dog and you are already familiar with them, which is a plus. Whatever dog is recommended by anyone should always be up to your discretion after you study the breed and size up the situation as only you can do. There are many factors that come into the decision to choose a dog. Not the least of which are factors which may not be mentioned on the threads. Best wishes whatever you decide.


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## EvoQ (Dec 23, 2012)

I have the Perfect Breed for your Particular Requirement. 

Great Dane.... Danes are awesome family dogs in thoroughly checked out family history first. They can be ferocious Defenders and their mere presence in your yard would be a Huge Deterrent to say the least. I know many many familys out in the backwoods with Great Danes and they are awesome defensive guardians. But make sure to check the family history first. As with common sense Any Dog that can take down a Predator needs to be thoroughly checked out for family history. But all in all Great Danes are gentle Giants..


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

If it was my only pick, go with the Rottie, other wise my 1st 2 picks would be American Bulldog (I'm very bias on them, because that is my breed), American Pit Bull Terrier.


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## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

Rock said:


> If it was my only pick, go with the Rottie, other wise my 1st 2 picks would be American Bulldog (I'm very bias on them, because that is my breed), American Pit Bull Terrier.


Just visited your website to meet your dogs. Very nice. My soulmate was an AB.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

Maura and Barn Yarns are both right about the working purpose of the rotts I think - weren't they "butcher's dogs" that kept people off the cattle being driven down the lanes to market? The human was more the herder. So keeping coyotes out of the yard would be right down their alley, so to speak...

If you're more worried about the lab going off to get picked off, a tag-along of equal size with a propensity to bark could come in many different breeds. Getting a dog to do business with a raccoon is a trick I wish I knew.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

EvoQ said:


> I have the Perfect Breed for your Particular Requirement.
> 
> Great Dane.... Danes are awesome family dogs in thoroughly checked out family history first. They can be ferocious Defenders and their mere presence in your yard would be a Huge Deterrent to say the least. I know many many familys out in the backwoods with Great Danes and they are awesome defensive guardians. But make sure to check the family history first. As with common sense Any Dog that can take down a Predator needs to be thoroughly checked out for family history. But all in all Great Danes are gentle Giants..


I'm going to disagree. Danes were hunting dogs long before they became guardians. MANY still have strong predatory instincts. Although not common in the USA, a few are still hunted. They are much more commonly hunted in Australia, whose lines I have been told are descended primarily from American show lines. Mine thinks coyote, fox, cats and raccoons are like Doritos (crunch all you want, they'll make more). She's not fast enough to catch a healthy adult coyote but she is murder on cats and ***** and has taken juveniles that were unwary. She runs a hot track okay and works the wind well. She looks like a champ but is really only mediocre, but I think she would have been a much better dog if I'd gotten her as a pup and raised her up hunting. Most of what she is is instinct and her drive with almost no training. And I only trust her around stock if I'm there to supervise. Like my greyhoundX, the Dane gets selective hearing once the chase starts.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

RedDirt Cowgirl said:


> Maura and Barn Yarns are both right about the working purpose of the rotts I think - weren't they "butcher's dogs" that kept people off the cattle being driven down the lanes to market? The human was more the herder. So keeping coyotes out of the yard would be right down their alley, so to speak...
> 
> If you're more worried about the lab going off to get picked off, a tag-along of equal size with a propensity to bark could come in many different breeds. Getting a dog to do business with a raccoon is a trick I wish I knew.


The first time they tangle with a grown **** usually decides if the dog will work them or not. I'd rate a big boar **** as one of the hardest fights a dog will ever have short of another dog. Most curs and heelers I've known would do for them & usually better than a coonhound. Hunt bred lurchers and sighthounds work them well too. But the best to see is a good terrier like a hard jagd or a pat. They make it look easy.


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## terri46355 (May 16, 2003)

The Rotties are no longer available so I searched local rescues/shelters thinking that giving an unwanted puppy a good home could be an option since we don't really need a guard dog. We found a 7 1/2 month old Komondor mix that appeard to be a good match. She lived the first 5 months on a farm with small dogs, goats, chickens, and cats. 

The last time I adopted a puppy from a shelter was more than 20 years ago, so it was amazing to read the questionaire and requirements to adopt from this lady.

Two requirements we disagreed with were that the dog would be a house dog and wear tags at all times. I emailed the lady explaining that the dog would have shelter, but would not be a house dog. We want a dog that would help protect our little dogs, cats, and chickens from predators. I explained why we wanted the dog when we visited the dog.

I also explained that we do not put collars and tags on our dogs due to the risk of strangulation. We live 1/4 mile from the road and our dogs do not leave the yard unless we take them somewhere. Only then do they need collars and tags.

She replied: I don't adopt to homes where the dog does not have access to inside time. Just the way we rescues operate. 

The search continues...


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

You almost need to take a class in lying to adopt a dog anymore. The great Pyrenees rescue here will not adopt out a dog thats going to be used as a LGD or live outside even if thats what the dog wants to do. The shelters and human societies are much different.

Yesterday I went to one of our shelters to look at a German Wirehair Pointer. He turned out to be a real nice dog but there was one hitch. I have two dogs and poultry. From observing his behavior at the shelter and knowing my dogs I was not to concerned about the dogs getting along but there is still the poultry issue. I asked if I paid his adoption fee up front could I take him home for the day to get a better idea of how he will act outside of the kennel environment and how much interest he would show in my birds. I don't expect to bring a three year old dog home and get along with my chickens, however, I would like to get an idea of how determined he is going to be to get them and how trainable he is. Of course once he goes out their door he can't come back even though they had nothing to loose. They could have adopted a dog out or if it didn;t work they could have made $200 that day for letting the dog go for a few hours. The dog was a owner surrender and came in neutered and with shots they had no money into him plus I would have taken him to the vet to get his feet fixed. He has some type of infection between his toes. I could have offered the dog a home on 80 acres, I bird hunt, I run 4 miles every other day, the alternate days I run the dogs on my atv, he would sleep inside, has a pond to swim in, 2 other dogs to play with, etc. Instead he will probably go to a home in town where he has a tiny yard and hunts 2 times a year and i will go to a breeder instead. 

That turned into a rather long rant, but I understand where you are coming from.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

You got lucky on the Komondor, they are not known to be friendly, happy family pets. Exceptions exist, of course.

Of the two you mention, certainly a Rott is what I would choose, and MOST certainly over a Dane. Great Danes don't live very long, and I have known many that never even make it to six for various health reasons.

Forget rescues if you are looking for an outdoor dog. They will treat you like a child abuser.

We have Anatolians. Supremely friendly efficient dogs. I would love to have a Rott as a general purpose dog, but we have six dogs as it is, so no more for a very long time.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

double post


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

Tango said:


> Just visited your website to meet your dogs. Very nice. My soulmate was an AB.


Thanks :cowboy:we try to keep it real world not internet fantasy land with the dogs,!


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## MysticFire (Aug 21, 2013)

Hi,

I am new to the forum, but I just have to put my 2 cents worth in. I have been involved with the Rottweiler breed for 15years. I rescue, breed, show and train them. I have 3 foster Rotties now and I own 4 show/working dogs now. 
Rottweilers are an all purpose farm dog and all around ranch hand. They are smart, powerful, loyal and good defenders. They were known as the butchers dogs of Rottweil in Germany. They would move cattle and pull carts.
I use mine for all kinds of things here on my little ranch. My guys pull carts full of horse and chicken feed from my truck to the barn. They help me put the chickens back I the cops at night. I have a few Rotties working on their sheep herding titles and all will get their carting titles. I use them to keep my animals safe and they are very good and keeping wild animals out of my property. 
Having said all of this, Rottweilers are not for everyone. They are not the best yard dogs as they tend to want to be with their owners. They are a working dog that works with their human. I would think a LGD would be the best choice for being with the flocks and herds full time. Rotties would not "love" being away from the family.
If you do choose a Rottweiler, look for bloodlines that have herding titles and are bred to the standard and not the fad!! Rottweilers who work should have enough length of nose and depth of chest to work! To short nose means they can not breath well. This may look cool, but it is not to the standard. Also, getting a puppy is ideal for farm work so you can raise and train them to be the dog you want. 

Leslie K


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## terri46355 (May 16, 2003)

Update... we were given a 1 year-old English Mastiff (one week ago) whose owner couldn't keep him. He is well behaved, except he like to chase. Last Monday, he caught 2 chickens, but fortunately, my husband yelled at him before he killed them. He stops chasing when "No!" is yelled. 

Today was the best day so far. He ran right past the guineas to go to the house. Hopefully, he will improve and learn good behavior from the Lab and we won't have to watch him.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

It's a darn good start. And congratulations on your new addition.


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

Congrats, we love our English Mastiff. He is still growing so be careful of those bones and keep him on the lean side. Excess weight is not a good thing for a mastiff. I highly recommend checking out the Mastiff Forum. Loads of good information there about nutrition, health issues, training, and general behavioral characteristics of the mastiff breeds. Blessings, kat


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