# Guidance for use of shock collar please



## LFRJ (Dec 1, 2006)

HI there. Hope this is the right board for this. Our English Shepherd pup - 6 months, is turning into a chicken killer. Her older brother is the best LGD we've ever had and ignores and does not harm them. Guess his little sis didn't get the same gene. She's escaped her fenced yard three times now, and goes into full throttle chase mode. 

I'm not against using a shock collar for training purposes (if she's not too young), particularly when we have a strong prey drive to correct.She hasn't killed one yet, but we have had some broken legs. We need her as an LGD to join the team with her older brother. I appreciate that, while stern, the collars are effective and if used correctly, arguably more humane - than other methods....but before we go down that road, I'd like to have some guidance from those who have skill with this tool. I do understand and acknowledge that we, the owners need to start the training first. 

(To the mods, I sure hope I'm not opening a can of worms on a touchy subject. I don't visit this forum often). Thank you all in advance.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I used to be very opposed to them until I learned how to use them.
I still believe that you doing the basics with a leash is mandatory. If you can't train with a leash, you won't be able to train with an e-collar.

It's all about timing. The correct and ONLY time to give a correction is while she's thinking about it. You are God and you punish impure thoughts.
How do you know she's thinking about the chickens?
Well, she'll tell you. Dogs are as transparent as 3 year olds. Is she staring at the chickens? Are her ears pricked? Is her body tense? If you have doen your leash work and make it a point to pay attention to her (and an e-collar is not a substitute for spending a great deal of time on this - it is just for making your arm longer, it's not a shortcut) Then you will know when she's about to take off.
That moment is when you correct. That is the moment when the lightest correction will do, it will break her train of thought and she'll understand.

If you wait until she's actually chasing - you're too late. The second her leg muscles start pushing her body forward, your Window of Opportunity is shut. At that point it will take a much, much more severe correction to even get her attention. Her adrenalin is pumping (and let's not underestimate adrenalin, I, personally, feel no pain at all when I have an adrenalin response. None) her brain is totally focused, she doesn't hear you and her instincts are saying yesYesYES!!!!
Your NO has to be really harsh to overcome that - so don't let it get that far.

The e-collar _can_ be more humane. It in no way replaces basic training, but is a lot gentler on a dog then a long line. Like a long line, you still have to know how to train and when to correct.
It has a lot of advantages over a long line, but the advantage of a long line in this instance is that with a line, if you miss your moment, you can physically stop the chasing, with an e-collar you can only punish.
Discipline is effective, and the animal controls and can stop it (like running into a wall, it is just there, you can stop bashing your head against it at anytime), punishment is not.


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## anita_fc (May 24, 2008)

What Otter said!! Lol

Anita C.
Retired dog trainer from Idaho


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## LFRJ (Dec 1, 2006)

Thank you. Now, a couple of quick questions. We've discussed and are going to pursue more lunge line training before resorting to the collar, but we do need the quickest method to nip this in the bud as soon as possible, so it is not off the table.
1 - is six months too young for e-collar training if used very frugally and only during training sessions?
2 - in so much as she has now had three escapes in which she's been at large with the poultry , and one when we weren't there so who know how long.... have we lost a lot of ground here?
3 - would professional herding training help or confuse her? She clearly has the herd drive that her older brother does not possess. 

tx


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

1 - is six months too young for e-collar training if used very frugally and only during training sessions?
E-collar training should be like any other training, once that training is at the point of a correction for the dog not obeying.
For example, you can NOT use an e-collar to teach a dog down.
You CAN use one to teach a dog that _yes, when I say down, I mean down right this very second, no matter what else is going on, and I CAN reach you and get your attention should you choose to do something besides down_
You do this in EXACTLY the same way as you would a leash correction, just sans leash.

Also, you don't want her to get "collar wise". You know how some dogs, the minute the leash is off, go dashing madly about _neener neener neener, you can't make me!!_
Well, you don't want her to get that way about the e-collar, so she wears it for a week before you use it, and you make it a habit to put it on her first thing in the morning and take it off before bed.

2 - in so much as she has now had three escapes in which she's been at large with the poultry , and one when we weren't there so who know how long.... have we lost a lot of ground here?
You've lost some ground, but it is very, very rare to be "too late" in dog training. It's a teeny bit of ground. If she never makes a mistake, then you have no opportunity to teach her the right way! 
And -she is only 6 months old. She spent one of those months a mostly blind slug, wiggling towards warmth and food. Another figuring out that she not only had legs, but how to control them. Yet another learning that she is a dog, the world is big, and her bladder is small and for some reason, this upsets folks sometimes. Does that help keep it in perspective for you 


3 - would professional herding training help or confuse her? She clearly has the herd drive that her older brother does not possess.
Why would learning the right way to do things and some self control hurt her? :shrug:


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

Make sure you tune the collar to that dogs pain threshold. Start low and work up the power range.
Dont leave it on 24/7 it will rub a raw spot quickly.
All youv'e lost in her 3 escapes is your chance to claim "state champ of the world fence builder trophy":cowboy:you said she hasn't killed any.
Good luck


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## LFRJ (Dec 1, 2006)

Thank you all once more. I appreciate the feedback, and the laugh Rock!

As mentioned, we'll keep working with the line first. She's well worth the effort. She comes from good working lines and her brother is the best! Very intuitive.

Otter, I appreciate your input, particularly the part when you explained about proper timing - leash or e-collar, otherwise. Very helpful, in fact, that alone probably made all the difference! I'm glad I asked and thrilled that you took the time to answer.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

If you are using a long line on her, use it around the chickens. Teach her "leave it", I find this to be an important tool with a dog, especially amid distractions. Walk her around the property on the long line, changing directions often so she has to follow you and pay attention. Don't do any additional training until you find that you never tug her because she is paying attention to you. Put in another couple of sessions. Then, start adding "sit" and "come". Use praise, use treats if she likes them. Mix it up, don't let her get bored. 

Then, work on "leave it" with various things she would like to examine. Shorten the leash so that when you say "leave it", if she doesn't turn her head immediately you can pull her away. Never let her be wrong. Once she is compliant with her cues on or off the lead, you can go to the chickens. She needs to be solid on sit and leave it before giving her a superior distraction like the chickens. At this point you could put the e collar on if you wanted.

First practice your timing with the e collar before putting it on the dog. Put it on your wife's arm and zap her when she looks at the chickens. She'll let you know if the zap is too strong. She'll let you know if you zapped when she looked away from the chickens. Timing is all important with any kind of punishment.

Put dog on line, walk in circles or back and forth, getting closer to the chickens. When she shows interest (see post above), tell her leave it. If you have not rushed things, she should be far enough from the chickens that she will mind you. Praise and treat. Continue, getting a little closer to the chickens. She alerts, you call her off. If she doesn't mind, zap. I think you can do this without zapping.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Our *English Shepherd* pup





> We need her as an* LGD *


Youve got a herdiing dog, not a Guardian dog.

The collar will stop the killing, but nothing will give her a "guardian" *instinct*.
Good luck though


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

LFRJ said:


> We need her as an LGD to join the team with her older brother.


She can't be an LGD any more than a duck can ignore water. She has prey drive. She is a herding dog. She just is not an LGD. She will never be an LGD. It isn't in her genes. 
She would be a great pet. She will be a great dog to gather up the goats when they get out or even to herd the children from danger. But she isn't an LGD.

There is nothing wrong or bad about using a shock collar to train her to leave the chickens alone. It's actually a good idea. But don't expect her to be an LGD. It isn't in her genes. That is like asking Billy Barty to be a basketball star.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Guidance for using a shock collar?

Before using one you should try to explain to your wife what she is doing wrong








I'm so :ashamed:


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