# Chasing the sheep



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I have two Anatolians who are 8 months old today. I know....they are heading into the terrible teenage months. Isaac listens really well and is very submissive to the sheep. Eli does not listen quite so well and does not act submissive to the sheep. I only let them with the sheep when I am home to supervise. The dogs clearly like the sheep and want to play with them. The sheep are getting used to the dogs, but sometimes they do run from them and the dogs run with them.....the sheep don't see it as running with them so much...they think they are being chased. Isaac backs off when I tell him to but Eli does not unless I physically go out and scold him. Yesterday Eli was chasing the ram really hard. I still think it was playing, but it worries me that he is going to hurt a sheep and draw blood and I don't know what would happen after that. I know when Eli and isaac run and chase each other, there is a lot of leg-bitting involved. I am worried Eli will try to bite the sheeps legs, like he does his brothers. So how do I get Eli to stop running the sheep? I can see them from the house windows, but I am not watching 100% of the time. I thought about getting a remote shock collar and give him a little zap whenever he runs the sheep. Good idea? Bad idea?


----------



## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I am thinking the same thing. Ziggy wants to play with the sheep sometimes. Boomer gets onto him along with me. He seems to be more stubborn and hard headed. He will run over to the one ewes in particular and want her to run. Then I run after him scolding him, then he thinks I'm playing!!!..LOL My ewes are not scared of them, they know they would not hurt them but the playfulness from ziggy chasing once in a while could end bad. He's just so playful and stubborn, unlike Boomer when I scold Ziggy, Boomer also gets onto him and pulls him down by his neck as to say "Momma said NO"...LOL


----------



## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

Having two young pups at the same time is increasing your troubles. You might keep them seperated unless under direct supervision. 

Or if one is still chasing, only allow him with the livestock when supervised until he grows out of it. LGDs can be stopped from this. Do not give up. They will come around.

Shock colars can also help, I used one 10 plus years ago, and at times wish I still had one. But supervision when with the sheep will help train them.

Placing them with the larger more dominate sheep might help.

Many times at 1 year old they seem to settle down. GOOD LUCK!!!


----------



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I have noticed that Isaac is much more sensitive to my scolding. He is easier to train, much more willing to listen. Eli has much more of the kind of temperment you'd expect from a LGD and I think Isaac is a Labrador wearing an Anatolian costume. The two sheep that Eli wants to play with the most are the ram and wether, who don't fear the dogs. I think I'll start researching shock collars today. If Eli learns that chasing the sheep results in a little zap, I bet it won't take long for him to change his tune. If used correctly, I don't think using a shock collar is any different than using an electric wire on a fence.


----------



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

MonsterMalak said:


> Having two young pups at the same time is increasing your troubles. You might keep them seperated unless under direct supervision.
> 
> Or if one is still chasing, only allow him with the livestock when supervised until he grows out of it. LGDs can be stopped from this. Do not give up. They will come around.
> 
> ...



Thanks. Unfortunatly I don't have any larger sheep. All of my sheep are less than a year old and the dogs are taller than the sheep already. The ram will charge the dogs, but the silly dogs just see that as playing. I will continue to allow the dogs access to the sheep only when I am home. I get home from work early so they dogs and sheep will be together for at least a few hours a day but I think I'll keep them separate until I get a collar for Eli. I think it's easier to prevent problems than to cure them. Guess I need to do some shock collar shopping today.


----------



## equinecpa (Mar 21, 2011)

What do you do with the dogs when they're not with the sheep? I ask as I have the same problem and have to keep my boy tied as I don't have a separate run big enough for him. He's off leash only when I'm there. I just worry that this aggravates the problem as he builds up energy...


----------



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I have a large pasture that's divided in half with hot wire. There is also a large paddock. When I can't supervise, the sheep are in the paddock (the winter rye isn't in well enough to support the sheep 24/7 right now anyway) and the dogs are on the pasture where they can run and burn off energy. This chasing thing is much worse during the first 2 hours after I let the sheep out of the paddock. It's like the dogs are greeting friends that they were separated from and now want to play. So I am fairly certain it's not an aggression thing.


----------



## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

Carolyn,
I understand your concern with the built up energy. I t is like opening up the starting gates at a race. To put them in with the livestock at that point is asking for more problems. 

I was recently attempting to seperate a male from females in heat, and placed my male on a cable. He developed increased aggression to visitors in just a few weeks. Guess these dogs are not intended to be contained. Now that he is back in with his cows and goats,,,, he has calmed down. 

I would recomend at least a cable run to give them room to run, even if in with the sheep. Or to allow them to blow off the steam prior to placing them back in with the livestock.

On the shock colar thing,,, I found it best to also sneak in the shock. Some think they should give the command to stop, then shock. But I found this trains them to just play when your not at home. Remember,,, they are very smart. Otherwise, hide and watch them,, so they do not relate the shock to your presence. Other times, shock after your command is given, to teach that you are the "all powerful one",,haha

But also remember, most LGds are very sensitive, and usually need much less correction than most other breeds. Some will shut down if corrected to harsh. 

Patience is the key,,, and do not give up.


----------



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I ordered a collar today that has a 400 yard range. That way I can shock Eli from the house and he will have no clue I am doing it. Isaac understands the "Back off" command but Eli ignores it. The shock collar should be good for that too.

I have noticed that Isaac is very sensitive to correction. His feelings get hurt easily and he remembers even hours later. A week or so ago I scolded him for chasing and he went down into submissive position instantly. A few hours later I went back into the pasture and instead of joyfully greeting me, he ran up and then belly crawled the last few feet. At that point I sat on the ground with him and loved him and he was fine after that. It just amazed me that even a few hours later, he remembered that our last encounter was a scolding! I have never had a dog remember a scolding for more than a few minutes.


----------



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Grin...welcome to adolescent LGDs. The fighting will come soon too. 

This is normal, the playing stage. So is fighting. 

How you deal with it will dictate the success or failure of the pups future.

Whether or not you can rise up to the alpha occasion will also play into the success or failure.

All the book reading in the world you can toss out with the kitty litter as far as I am concerned, you have to learn this from experience, and no one's experience is ever identical to the next one's. Wouldn't it be nice if this was all just a pre-packaged postage paid deal, but running LGD's never is. 

Which is why I probably WILL write a book someday about the harsh cold reality of running LGD's. Everything no one else has the guts to tell you, or the knowledge, or the concern, or would rather folks don't ask because hey, all they really wanted to do was sell you a puppy, period....after that you are on your own. Its why so many fail with them, they get spoon fed the pretty fluffy stuff then when things like this happen they're like, "But no one told me! The books never said that!" Grin....

Try doing this with 20 dogs, mixed breeds and both intact sexes! AHA! You now have a better appreciation I bet, for what I accomplish here, which is next to the impossible!

Brian, would politely have to disagree with the tying up in any shape or form as it'll only add to aggression. You've discovered that now with your Boz. In fact it can turn a normally placid dog into an unbalanced killing machine. And yes, human aggression can come up whereas it may never had before. Yikes...not what you need....

Barbados you'll get through this but you have many days and weeks ahead of you doing intense hands-on shepherding, removing pups from stock, putting them in supervised, taking out if need be, patience, correction... Everyone goes through it.

I've only had one dog that never snapped out of the phase, was never bonded right to stock.....and she's history.

They do come around but it will take YOU putting your 100% effort into keeping them on the straight and narrow. Welcome to the stuff the books don't tell you, the real world of LGD ownership!!!! HANG IN THERE, HANG ON AND tough it out. Your sheep are depending on you....and so are the pups. Brian is right, patience!!!!!!!! LOTS OF IT!


----------



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

And ps don't worry, a few days out of the sheep will NOT ruin them or un bond them for life! Don't buy into that myth that some people want you to swallow...I've had bitches out of stock for up to 3 weeks with pups....they go right back in and pick up where they left off. You can separate for hours, with no bad fallout. They'll come around!


----------



## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

BarbadosSheep said:


> I ordered a collar today that has a 400 yard range. That way I can shock Eli from the house and he will have no clue I am doing it. Isaac understands the "Back off" command but Eli ignores it. The shock collar should be good for that too.
> 
> I have noticed that Isaac is very sensitive to correction. His feelings get hurt easily and he remembers even hours later. A week or so ago I scolded him for chasing and he went down into submissive position instantly. A few hours later I went back into the pasture and instead of joyfully greeting me, he ran up and then belly crawled the last few feet. At that point I sat on the ground with him and loved him and he was fine after that. It just amazed me that even a few hours later, he remembered that our last encounter was a scolding! I have never had a dog remember a scolding for more than a few minutes.


Same here, I snatched up Boomer to take him to the vet months ago when I noticed sores on his back when he was eating....to this day he is weary of me when I place his food down. He has gotten better he lets me pet him but still standofish.

Goatress, I hang on your every word. Because everything you and bearfoot have taught me has been true and worked. I have the same exact senario as Barbado, I figured he would grow out of it. After I wear myself down and him. LOL...He takes my commands as play and does not submit to me. Boomer, I feel submitts too much or does he?. When I command "down" when they are jumping on me Boomer lays down on his belly looking up at me. Ziggy on the other hand thinks that means wrapping his paws around my ankles and playfully nipping at my boot....LOL Boomer will stay and watch me get onto ziggy "yelling ackkkk"...down! Ackkkkkkk Down!!! Then Boomer will come over and grab ziggy by the scuff and pull him down...then ziggy thinks it's playtime with Boomer and there off tumbling and wrestling. It wears me out with Ziggy and on the other hand did I make Boomer too submissive. I'm with Barbadosheep, they are now teens what to do? What's too much? I am always afraid I will get onto them too much, or too harsh. There is a fine line and I dont know where it is.


----------



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks...yeah one thing I have learned is to be patient. So far, these boys get along beautifully. They eat their dinner side by side. I stand there with them so Eli does not steal Isaac's food. Isaac is dominate but he will let Eli take his dinner. They have had one spat and it was over a deer head. Eli had a bit of blood on his cheek and Isaac ended up with the head. Whenever I give them yummy stuff I make sure they each get a piece of it, but often Isaac ends up with both and Eli has to wait for Isaac to let him have one of them. Neither show any signs of food aggression towards me though. I make sure to let them know that I am allowed to take the deer head if I want to, and I often do just to prove I can. They both sit and lie down on command and they usually come when I call them. They are either with the sheep or right next to the sheep 24/7 so I figure they are bonded well enough, but they both adore me too.....which is fine with me. I love these two dogs. I love their look and everything about their temperment. I know we are getting ready to head into the "terrible teens" so I keeping on top of their training (all of it...obediance, social skills with me and family, and sheep). I really enjoy working with these dogs. It's not a big deal to let the sheep in and out of the paddock. They go out easily and I use a bit of alfalfa pellets in the feeder in the evening to call them back in. It's just become a routine for us now. Because of the location of this pasture, it's really easy for me to see them out the front window from most areas of my home. So having this remote trainer should prove to be a very useful tool. I don't think it's going to take a high level of correction for Eli. He's smart and should learn quickly that chasing is not allowed.


----------



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Fowler said:


> Same here, I snatched up Boomer to take him to the vet months ago when I noticed sores on his back when he was eating....to this day he is weary of me when I place his food down. He has gotten better he lets me pet him but still standofish.
> 
> Goatress, I hang on your every word. Because everything you and bearfoot have taught me has been true and worked. I have the same exact senario as Barbado, I figured he would grow out of it. After I wear myself down and him. LOL...He takes my commands as play and does not submit to me. Boomer, I feel submitts too much or does he?. When I command "down" when they are jumping on me Boomer lays down on his belly looking up at me. Ziggy on the other hand thinks that means wrapping his paws around my ankles and playfully nipping at my boot....LOL Boomer will stay and watch me get onto ziggy "yelling ackkkk"...down! Ackkkkkkk Down!!! Then Boomer will come over and grab ziggy by the scuff and pull him down...then ziggy thinks it's playtime with Boomer and there off tumbling and wrestling. It wears me out with Ziggy and on the other hand did I make Boomer too submissive. I'm with Barbadosheep, they are now teens what to do? What's too much? I am always afraid I will get onto them too much, or too harsh. There is a fine line and I dont know where it is.


isn't it amazing how similar our dogs are!! How old are your pups now?


----------



## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

BarbadosSheep said:


> isn't it amazing how similar our dogs are!! How old are your pups now?


1 yr this month. Ziggy is like a out of control teenager...LOL
He has never hurt my sheep, but he thinks he has to chase one of them when I let her out of the stalls in the morning, she is also the one that trys to get into his food bowl. So I have to pick that up first. The ewe goes to were the food bowl was and ziggy will run over there giving her the you know what and the food bowl is gone!! The ewe just stands there with her eyes blinking knowing that he will not hurt her. Then she turns to walk away and he runs around to get into her face, so she paces a little faster and ziggy thinks it's playtime now. Jezzzzzzzzzz. I've seen him napping and the ewe will come over and sniff his ears and nibble his nose while ziggy lets her. They are just weird, If I didnt know any better I swear that had something going on....LMAO!!!


----------



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

So your boys are a few months ahead of mine. You know, I probably would not be as worried about the chasing if it weren't for the dogs biting each other's legs when they chase. I see them both do it all the time. they bite hind legs, making the other one fall and then they wrestle around on the ground. They never hurt each other doing it but I am so afraid that Eli might try biting the sheep's legs and if he draws blood, it seems like it could quickly escalate into something bad.


----------



## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Mine pull each other down by the necks and yesterday Boomer pull Ziggy down by his tail when I was getting onto him. It was kind of funny...LOL
And they play hard, and run and roll right past the sheep. The sheep just stand there and let them roll right by. Ziggy will run with his tail tucked so Boomer can't grab it...LOL I've seen them play really hard, but neither has gotten to the point of being mad. Boomer is my serious boy, Ziggy is a trouble maker. Both work well together though. When the coyotes are howling I sneak out by the barn to watch them work. And Boomer and Ziggy will hit the fence hard while barking. Then Ziggy comes back and paces in front of the stalls barking while Boomer stays out in the pasture. Then I come into the light and they will continue to work and seem to think that I'm their back up. Which I feel/hope re-enforces them to feel secure.

Just where is that fine line? Goatress do you need a paid vacation to come visit us in Texas?....LOL


----------



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

you know what's funny? Eli never barks. I have not heard a peep out of him. Isaac, on the other hand, does not miss a thing!! So far we have had no predators, but Isaac hears a car door close next door or the hinges on the barn creek and he alerts to it. Isaac charges off barking and Eli is right there next to him, but not barking. Maybe he figures he doesn't need to bark since Isaac is taking care of that? Isaac is smart though. As soon as he figures out what made that mysterious noise in the dark and realizes it is not a threat, he quiets down on his own. He is a fantastic watch dog.


----------



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I thought I'd update how the boys are doing. I bought a Sportdog 400 shock collar. I put it on Eli that first day and he got zapped twice that day. And now, he is perfect with the sheep. He still likes them and will walk up to them with his tail up and happy, but if they bolt and run he does not chase. If they take off running for no reason (as sheep sometimes do), he just watches them. He will sometimes walk after them and lay down near them, but will not run after them. The sheep are so much more relaxed now and spend a lot more time grazing and not as much time standing in the corner. I still lock the sheep in the paddock at night when no one can supervise, but during the day they are all together all day long. My daughter has a good clear view of that field from her house so even if I am not home, she lets me know what's going on with them. I feel we have turned a corner with these pups. That shock collar was a fantastic investment!!


----------



## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I am so glad it worked for you. I may be purchasing one now....Ziggy is a handful. He still wont stop jumping up on me and he's taller then me. He has issues with one of my bigger sheep, I've never seen him bite her but he does open his mouth on her ear. She's the one that likes his dogfood and he trys to keep her away from that area even though I pick up the bowl every morning before work.....LOL


----------



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Isaac jumps up next to me, but so far not ON me. He only does it when I am bringing their food so I make them both walk nicely over to where the food bowls does. Isaac is very sensitive to correction (thank goodness) so he has not needed the collar yet.

I read some comments on another forum about shock collars. Apparently some people thing that it's cruel and lazy to use them. I really am puzzled about this, since these very same people use electric fences. I see no difference! Before the shock collar, I was having to supervise the dogs all the time. This meant I could not leave them together when I am not home and I do have a full time job. So the sheep and dogs were getting very little time together. And when they were together, I was spending all of my time running out to the pasture to correct Eli. Of course he saw me comming and comes running up to me, all full of happiness. So I can't correct him at that moment because he will think I am correcting him for coming to me! This collar means that Eli is gently corrected for chasing sheep. He does not think the sheep shocked him and he doesn't think I did it either. He just knows that if he makes the sheep run, he gets a little zap.....so he stopped doing that. How on earth is that cruel?


----------



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I am leaving the dogs with the sheep all day unattended now. They both adore the ram (and he loves them too) so they do show him a bit too much attention, but both are submissive to him if he trys to ram them. She ewes are calm and relaxed around the dogs now too. The dogs do follow the sheep around, but never run them or push them hard. They just wander around with them. It's so awesome to see these boys actually working now.


----------



## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

In the wrong hands, el collars are cruel and lazy. Glad everything is gelling.


----------



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Oh, I agree 100%!! You have to be very careful using a shock collar and don't think it's the cure for everything the dog does wrong. you will turn a sensitive animal into a terrified bundle of nerves! Used correctly though, it's a very valuable training tool.


----------



## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm having this same problem of the GP chasing the sheep, nipping at their hind quarters/legs. Recently, he had one of the smallest lambs off away from the herd....that scared me. We had a shock collar for when he was chasing/biting after the sheep but it came loose and fell of in the field....so now I just have the control, which won't help at all now 

He's 7 months old now and 65 lbs. Both parents are LGD's and we've had him here with the sheep since he was 3 months old.

We correct him when we are out there and he is submissive to us. Just a few pointers would be helpful. Thanks!


----------



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

*Nothing *substitutes hands on shepherding, patience and time spent with your pup in livestock. I never heard of anyone using shock collars on LGDs until I came to this forum. :hrm: Like debarking an LGD because your neighbors complain about its barking, I seriously hope this is something that does not 'catch on'.


----------



## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

Goatress said:


> *Nothing *substitutes hands on shepherding, patience and time spent with your pup in livestock. I never heard of anyone using shock collars on LGDs until I came to this forum. :hrm: Like debarking an LGD because your neighbors complain about its barking, I seriously hope this is something that does not 'catch on'.


, Yep people trying to take short cuts, not enough knowledge so they take the magic pill.
Believe it or not, this was a major downfall with APBT. People were to inexperienced to teach them correctly looked for short cuts. Only problem their pain tolerances were so high, lot of them just got worse. So now 6ou have these high strung extremely pain tolerant dogs, and your making them schizoid by shocking them.


----------



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

If a correctly used shock collar works, what is the problem? Before, I tried verbal correction. But every time the dogs saw me, the stopped the bad behaviour and came running over to get petted. And learned nothing. They had no clue what they were doing was bad. So Eli got two little zaps when I was not visible to him and he is wonderful now. How is using a shock collar any different from using an electric fence to teach them to not escape? Eli is a very sensitive dog.....not like a pit bull. He only got two zaps on around a medium setting, certainly not enough to turn him into a schizoid dog. The collar sits unused in a drawer now, likely to never be needed again.

When I was training my dogs, I only kept them with the sheep when I was there to supervise. At night, the sheep went into the paddock. I put Eli's collar on him in the morning when I went out to feed, and removed it when I fed in the evening. Eli was zapped when I was watching him from the livingroom window. He has no idea who zapped him, but he soon figured out it only happened if he was runnig the sheep....so he stopped running them. Now he and Isaac walk calmly around the sheep and they are all together 24/7.


----------



## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

BarbadosSheep said:


> If a correctly used shock collar works, what is the problem? Before, I tried verbal correction. But every time the dogs saw me, the stopped the bad behaviour and came running over to get petted. And learned nothing. They had no clue what they were doing was bad. So Eli got two little zaps when I was not visible to him and he is wonderful now. How is using a shock collar any different from using an electric fence to teach them to not escape? Eli is a very sensitive dog.....not like a pit bull. He only got two zaps on around a medium setting, certainly not enough to turn him into a schizoid dog. The collar sits unused in a drawer now, likely to never be needed again.


That was my train of thought as well, Barbados...because as soon as they see me they are by my side or stop doing what they shouldnt. It's when I'm NOT out there that I worry.


----------



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

You may need to separate him unless you are there to supervise. Can you kennel him next to the sheep? He is at an age where it's only going to get worse before it gets better. Puberty is hard to deal with! Until he is reliable, I would not let him unsupervised with those sheep. It's a lot easier to prevent a bad habit from starting than it is to bread one that's already present.

I have an advantage in that I have two of them. So they get to expend all of their energy playing with each other. I have not seem them ever try to nip the sheep....they clearly only wanted to be with them, but the sheep didn't see it that way. Now they move slowly when joining the group. They move the sheep to the paddock at times too, always moving slowly behind them. It's awesome to see them working so well with the sheep.


----------



## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

Yes, we have pens that we could put him in, where he is 'around' the sheep, he can see/hear them but just not get to them. Might have to try it....wanna do this right.


----------



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

*, Yep people trying to take short cuts, not enough knowledge so they take the magic pill.
Believe it or not, this was a major downfall with APBT. People were to inexperienced to teach them correctly looked for short cuts. Only problem their pain tolerances were so high, lot of them just got worse. So now 6ou have these high strung extremely pain tolerant dogs, and your making them schizoid by shocking them.*

I know where you are coming from, Rock. And, how come it is that generations of stockmen managed to train 1,000's of LGD's without shock collars and made great dogs?


----------



## mysticklobo (Feb 24, 2008)

Goatress said:


> And, how come it is that generations of stockmen managed to train 1,000's of LGD's without shock collars and made great dogs?


Because most of them didn't have other jobs besides their stock. They could be with them 24/7, while a LOT of modern day homesteaders HAVE to have full time jobs to live and afford their homesteads.


----------



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

mysticklobo said:


> Because most of them didn't have other jobs besides their stock. They could be with them 24/7, while a LOT of modern day homesteaders HAVE to have full time jobs to live and afford their homesteads.


Which for me, then begs the question, should they really be dabbling in LGD's if they really don't have the time learn, the time to raise them up the right way and the quality time to spend with their livestock.....:cowboy:.... Sorry, but for a long time the way I made my living was horseback with cattle 24/7. I come from a different background, I suppose, than a lot of 'modern day homesteaders'.....maybe that's why I look at this from a different perspective than the person who does it for 'fun'.


----------



## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Even though people who are homesteading for "fun" still need LGDs to protect their stock from coyotes and strays. I bet 95% of the people who own and use LGDs do work away from the home. Most of us don't breed dogs or livestock for a living so we have to work. And most of us are not fortunate to have older, trained LGDs to do most of the training for us. So we employ whatever safe, humane methods work. For me, two zaps with that shock collar worked. That's no different than allowing a dog to get zapped with an electric fence to teach him to respect fences.


----------



## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

BarbadosSheep said:


> Even though people who are homesteading for "fun" still need LGDs to protect their stock from coyotes and strays. I bet 95% of the people who own and use LGDs do work away from the home. Most of us don't breed dogs or livestock for a living so we have to work. And most of us are not fortunate to have older, trained LGDs to do most of the training for us. So we employ whatever safe, humane methods work. For me, two zaps with that shock collar worked. That's no different than allowing a dog to get zapped with an electric fence to teach him to respect fences.



I am in agreement with you Barbados. We love our farm, but it's small and takes more money to run usually then we actually make from selling the few animals/products we have. My husband works a regular full time job and I have a part time one. I would LOVE LOVE to have all the time I needed to stay out and watch the sheep and LGD. But I don't. I have a couple hours a day, if that and I do the best with what I have. 

I have decided to keep our pup in a pen by himself unless we are out there. This morning he was chasing a ewe and then after he was repremanded, I walked back to the house (to get the kids to the bus) and when I got back, he had cornered one of the other lambs (different than the one yesterday, I put her in her own pen w/ mom) and had taken it away from the herd. I think both of these lambs he was 'playing' with but there were bit marks and both of the lambs tails, to the point of bleeding.


----------



## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

BarbadosSheep said:


> Even though people who are homesteading for "fun" still need LGDs to protect their stock from coyotes and strays. I bet 95% of the people who own and use LGDs do work away from the home. Most of us don't breed dogs or livestock for a living so we have to work. And most of us are not fortunate to have older, trained LGDs to do most of the training for us. So we employ whatever safe, humane methods work. For me, two zaps with that shock collar worked. That's no different than allowing a dog to get zapped with an electric fence to teach him to respect fences.


I agree. Just because we have a small "fun" farm and don't expect to make a living at it, there is still a need to keep predators at bay--I have a six foot perimeter fence that keeps *most* people and stray dogs out, but ***** and such laugh at it. Before we got our Akbash we would regularly find headless chickens still inside the coop. While many would think that chickens inside a coop, within a 6 foot fenced area, would be safe, I beg to differ. 

I happen to work from home, but not at farming, so I am not able to supervise 24/7 but since I can check in several times a day, I am luckier than many small homesteaders who need to work away from the property full-time.

I see nothing wrong with electric collars to break stock-chasing and such. It's a tool, just like any other, it can be used correctly or it can be abused.

IMO, it's a GOOD thing to be encouraging people to get back to the land as much as possible, growing gardens wherever possible, raising their own meat, milk, and eggs as much as possible. We have certain tools available to keep our livestock safe, LGDs are just one of them, and I agree that you can't just turn a pup loose with the stock without supervision and expect anything good to come of it. But some folks do need to work away from the home to make ends meet, and to say that no one except full-time farmers should own an LGD is to deny smaller homesteaders an important option. 

I was lucky to find a 3-year old dog that had already been guarding goats all his life, so I was able to basically bring him home, turn him loose with my goats, and not worry. He already knew what to do and what not to do. I think this is the way to go if you can't be there 24/7.

I'm already dreading raising an LGD puppy.  But with Whaley getting close to 8 years of age, I have to start thinking about it. However, just recently I saw a photo of a 16-year old Akbash dog, which gives me heart... maybe I still have a bit of time before I need to worry about it.


----------



## horsepoor21 (Mar 14, 2007)

Hmmm ... yeah I think I'm a tad offended by that comment . Pretty sure having a few acres and making my whole living selling LGD's sounds like alot more fun than what my husband goes thru in the oil field to afford our place ... (BTW , he started out as a ranch hand himself ....)


----------

