# website feedback



## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

I posted this on the cf forum but decided to ask here too.

Would appreciate some feedback on this website

featherbottoms books 

We're having some server issues right now so if it doesn't load properly, please try again.

There are about 30 books in there and to see them all just click the "search" button in the box. It'll bring up all the books. After that I'd appreciate it if you just tried out the different things to view books.

At this point, I'm mostly interested in functionality.

Any comments welcome.

Thank you all.

Debora
featherbottoms


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

<disclaimer> this message is kinda harsh. I mean it to be helpful, I spend alot of time searching for books online and therefore assume I am the type of visitor you are hoping to attract. I also design websites and make good money from the sites I have created. I am very opinionated, but if people would just do things my way life would be so much easier.</disclaimer>

Hate to say this but I didn't like it. It loaded but very slowly - I would have given up in real life. It's clever looking, but not very intuitive. Pop-ups and floating windows annoy the heck out of me, so again in real life I wouldn't bother, but if I did there are a few specific things that should be changed IMNSHO: I like to hit Enter to start a search. The pop-up window for the book should have an x at the top right to close out the window (so should the pop-up window for the images). The option to include images should be part of the search box or even the book list, it can be on the pop-up as well but it shouldn't only be on the pop-up window.


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## backwoodsman7 (Mar 22, 2007)

I can't get anything at all out of it except "Loading Featherbottoms Bookserver..."

You're using scripts for the entire page content. That sort of thing isn't really a good idea for an income generating website. The more complicated & fancy you get, the more of your potential customers you're eliminating from even being able to view your site. So keep it simple, and keep your code completely generic. The last thing you want to do is make it harder for the 25% or so of us who don't use MSIE to give you our money, because that translates directly to a 25% reduction in your income.


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

mistletoad said:


> <disclaimer> this message is kinda harsh. I mean it to be helpful, I spend alot of time searching for books online and therefore assume I am the type of visitor you are hoping to attract. I also design websites and make good money from the sites I have created. I am very opinionated, but if people would just do things my way life would be so much easier.</disclaimer>


We are looking for real, and honest, opinions. No disclaimer necessary - but thank you for being so polite.



> Hate to say this but I didn't like it. It loaded but very slowly - I would have given up in real life.


Just curious, how long did it take? We have it to about 4 seconds on our machines. Since it is an application, and not an html web page, it does load a tad bit slower. And also, what kind of system do you run? What kind of internet connection? We've not had anyone with dial-up test this so have no idea if there are issues with that.



> It's clever looking, but not very intuitive.


What would it take to make it more intuitive? We had a pretty comprehensive help area but go back and forth with how detailed it needs to be, if at all.



> Pop-ups and floating windows annoy the heck out of me, so again in real life I wouldn't bother


And if the floating windows were stationary? The book detail window will probably always be that way.



> , but if I did there are a few specific things that should be changed IMNSHO: I like to hit Enter to start a search. The pop-up window for the book should have an x at the top right to close out the window (so should the pop-up window for the images). The option to include images should be part of the search box or even the book list, it can be on the pop-up as well but it shouldn't only be on the pop-up window.


All these things are being addressed this weekend so won't be an issue.

We've been working on this off, and on, for almost a year. We've had design issue changes, shouting matches, pouting sessions and tons of talks. Since it's just me and my husband (he's the designer, programmer) we haven't had any outside influence. It's hard to build something without outside criticism - that's why we asked for ya'll help today. We have thick skin. Any ideas, and advice, are most welcome.


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## alpha phi (Oct 16, 2007)

You should add some content to the home page...a featured book....site decription
something to let visitors get an idea what the site it about.

I also get a javascript error when I use the search window, 
I click yes (continue running scripts on this page) twice,...then it displays the results.

javascript/ajax/python? is neat in moderation....php/mysql will be far more funtional
with a large database of items.


EDIT:


> Just curious, how long did it take? We have it to about 4 seconds on our machines.


I counted 8-1000.....on 3 Mbit cable


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

backwoodsman7 said:


> I can't get anything at all out of it except "Loading Featherbottoms Bookserver..."
> 
> You're using scripts for the entire page content. That sort of thing isn't really a good idea for an income generating website. The more complicated & fancy you get, the more of your potential customers you're eliminating from even being able to view your site. So keep it simple, and keep your code completely generic...


We've been having server problems all morning so sometimes the "Loading Featherbottoms Bookserver..." is the server not responding. However, yes, it is written with javascript.



> The last thing you want to do is make it harder for the 25% or so of us who don't use MSIE to give you our money, because that translates directly to a 25% reduction in your income.


 Hmmm, we don't use any MS products in the build or design of this. It's designed on Linux Ubuntu using Firefox (specifically - Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.8) Gecko/20061201 Firefox/2.0.0.8 (Ubuntu-feisty)). We have a Windows xp w/ IE and Firefox that we only use for testing. However, I'm curious, if you don't use MSIE, what do you use?

Thank you - all comments are much appreciated!!

Debora


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

I know what you mean about feedback. I'm lucky in that I have a team of online friends that I use as my sounding board - some have extensive computer experience and others are AOL newbies - they know me well enough that they don't bother to be nice! LOL

I'm on a broadband connection - I just timed it - 6 seconds, but the page doesn't look fully loaded (I now realise that is the design, but on the first visit it looks somewhat incomplete) and on netscape the "tranferrring data..." notice at the bottom never clears.

Intuitive is hard to explain - I just sort of looked at the page and thought "now what?" Maybe if the overview text came up on the first page - it explains it well but I didn't know to look for that right away (calling it "How to use this site" might help, but I think having it on the homepage is still the best option). You might also want to include a note about how to select multiple books (never over estimate the ability of your viewers! lol)

I played with it some more and noticed that "deselect" doesn't really deselect - the highlighting fades but does not clear. 

OK now I read that I like that I can change the sort order of the books, but I don't like the ordering system. People are spoiled with shopping carts, when they click something that says purchase they want it to be instant - since you already accept Paypal it should be simple enough to incorporate their shopping cart options.


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

alpha phi said:


> You should add some content to the home page...a featured book....site decription
> something to let visitors get an idea what the site it about.


Yes you are right. We need to find a way to let people know what this application does even though what it is designed to do is quite simple. To allow a person looking for a book to find it, view it, and contact the seller to buy it.


> also get a javascript error when I use the search window,
> I click yes (continue running scripts on this page) twice,...then it displays the results.


Can you tell me what the javascript error is? And which browser you are using. And I assume that the error window pops up and does not let you continue until you say yes or no. Do you have your browser set up to show javascript errors, or is this error window coming up anyway? When I browse the web and if I have the option selected to show javascript errors, I get javascript errors on some pages. Thanks for the answers. I am just trying to get some information about how this thing is acting out there in the real world.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

doesnt work all I get is the junk below. Are you only testing with your IE browser?

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/home2/tom/lib/python2.4/cherrypy/wsgiserver.py", line 579, in communicate
req.respond()
File "/home2/tom/lib/python2.4/cherrypy/wsgiserver.py", line 345, in respond
response = self.wsgi_app(self.environ, self.start_response)
File "/home2/tom/lib/python2.4/cherrypy/_cptree.py", line 52, in __call__
return self.wsgiapp(environ, start_response)
File "/home2/tom/lib/python2.4/cherrypy/_cpwsgi.py", line 294, in __call__
return head(environ, start_response)
File "/home2/tom/lib/python2.4/cherrypy/_cpwsgi.py", line 42, in __call__
return IRResponse(self.nextapp, environ, start_response, self.recursive)
File "/home2/tom/lib/python2.4/cherrypy/_cpwsgi.py", line 55, in __init__
self.setapp()
File "/home2/tom/lib/python2.4/cherrypy/_cpwsgi.py", line 60, in setapp
self.response = self.nextapp(self.environ, self.start_response)
File "/home2/tom/lib/python2.4/cherrypy/_cpwsgi.py", line 282, in tail
return self.response_class(environ, start_response, self.cpapp)
File "/home2/tom/lib/python2.4/cherrypy/_cpwsgi.py", line 138, in __init__
_cherrypy.log(tb)
File "/home2/tom/lib/python2.4/cherrypy/__init__.py", line 112, in __call__
return log.error(*args, **kwargs)
File "/home2/tom/lib/python2.4/cherrypy/_cplogging.py", line 40, in error
self.error_log.log(severity, ' '.join((self.time(), context, msg)))
File "/usr/local/lib/python2.4/logging/__init__.py", line 1040, in log
apply(self._log, (level, msg, args), kwargs)
File "/usr/local/lib/python2.4/logging/__init__.py", line 1079, in _log
self.handle(record)
File "/usr/local/lib/python2.4/logging/__init__.py", line 1089, in handle
self.callHandlers(record)
File "/usr/local/lib/python2.4/logging/__init__.py", line 1126, in callHandlers
hdlr.handle(record)
File "/usr/local/lib/python2.4/logging/__init__.py", line 642, in handle
self.emit(record)
File "/usr/local/lib/python2.4/logging/__init__.py", line 744, in emit
self.handleError(record)
File "/usr/local/lib/python2.4/logging/__init__.py", line 693, in handleError
traceback.print_exception(ei[0], ei[1], ei[2], None, sys.stderr)
File "/usr/local/lib/python2.4/traceback.py", line 124, in print_exception
_print(file, 'Traceback (most recent call last):')
File "/usr/local/lib/python2.4/traceback.py", line 13, in _print
file.write(str+terminator)
IOError: [Errno 32] Broken pipe


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

I finally got it load. Why the floating search bar. Cute, nice programmign but a waste of time. Lock it down. You have a lot of popups with info, many people block popups and may just think your buttons dont work. Your web site is also plain, I have no idea what its for. maybe the first page should be what you are and do then go to the search pages.


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

mistletoad said:


> I know what you mean about feedback. I'm lucky in that I have a team of online friends that I use as my sounding board - some have extensive computer experience and others are AOL newbies - they know me well enough that they don't bother to be nice! LOL
> 
> I'm on a broadband connection - I just timed it - 6 seconds, but the page doesn't look fully loaded (I now realise that is the design, but on the first visit it looks somewhat incomplete) and on netscape the "tranferrring data..." notice at the bottom never clears.
> 
> ...


This application is designed to be simple. Its purpose is to allow you to find a book quickly, view it, and then buy it. Though you are right, we need a good way to facilitate the actual buying. The deselect actually does deselect the book. After hitting the deselect button, nothing will show up when you hit the view selected books button. Deselect is meant as a convenience to let you start the selection process over again from scratch.



> ...I spend alot of time searching for books online...


I think that this statement is the key to the design of this application. Assume that there are 20,000 books in the database from 50 different stores. If you collect Steinbeck, then you bring the site up, enter Steinbeck in the author field, hit start search, and every Steinbeck book that anyone has will be listed. Then you can further narrow the listing by entering the condition that you want from the condition drop down box. Then you can select the ones left that you want to view and hit the view selected books button. Then you can page thru all of these to see the details and the images. There is no going back and forth between pages and the search results are always on the same page. There are only a few simple things that you must learn to do to be able to search the entire database to find books. Thanks for you feedback.


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## alpha phi (Oct 16, 2007)

featherbottoms said:


> Can you tell me what the javascript error is? And which browser you are using. And I assume that the error window pops up and does not let you continue until you say yes or no. Do you have your browser set up to show javascript errors, or is this error window coming up anyway? When I browse the web and if I have the option selected to show javascript errors, I get javascript errors on some pages. Thanks for the answers. I am just trying to get some information about how this thing is acting out there in the real world.


I doesn't tell....just "an error has occured"
my user agent is:
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; MyIE2; .NET CLR 1.1.4322)
I also have the Micro$oft js debbuger update installed, so even though errors are suppressed in my browser I still see all errors.



Have you tried zen-cart, or oscommerce?
both are freeware, and have Pay Pal passoff / return built right in.


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

Gary in ohio said:


> I finally got it load. Why the floating search bar. Cute, nice programmign but a waste of time. Lock it down. You have a lot of popups with info, many people block popups and may just think your buttons dont work. Your web site is also plain, I have no idea what its for. maybe the first page should be what you are and do then go to the search pages.


Gary, thanks for the feedback. The design is to allow the searchbox to be hidden when not in use. After you search, hopefully the table will be filled with data. People have different size monitors and they work in different ways. We think the hideable and moveable searchbox lets people work in their own way. And when the searchbox is hidden or moved to the edge of the screen, then you can see the entire table. We also look at this as an application. The popups are part of that. I know that people have a negative connotation of popups because of the way they are used on the net. These are not traditional popups. They are part of the program. The browser cannot block them because they are not browser windows, but application windows. Try to think of this as an application. We are trying to keep the table real estate as big and unencumbered as possible. Regarding popups: your browser itself is probably full of windows that come up when you select different options. What if everything that you could do with a browser had to fit in your browser window at the same time! There would not be any room to get anything else done. Thanks again for your feedback.


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## backwoodsman7 (Mar 22, 2007)

featherbottoms said:


> We've been having server problems all morning so sometimes the "Loading Featherbottoms Bookserver..." is the server not responding. However, yes, it is written with javascript.


It loads now, so that must've been the case.



> However, I'm curious, if you don't use MSIE, what do you use?


I use Firefox on Linux. When it wouldn't load I assumed it was a browser issue, although that's rare these days. Current stats on my website show about 70% IE, and the rest other stuff, mostly Firefox.

A couple notes now that I can see the site:

1. Around 10% of web users still have 800x600 displays. By not accomodating them, you're cutting your income 10%. I see now that the search box can be moved, but that may not occur to a lot of users. Would be better to make sure it's positioned entirely on screen no matter what the resolution.

2. Around 2% have Javascript disabled. If you don't accomodate them, there goes another 2% of your income.


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

alpha phi said:


> ...Have you tried zen-cart, or oscommerce?
> both are freeware, and have Pay Pal passoff / return built right in.


I looked around at several store applications, including oscommerce about a year ago. I thought that oscommerce looked really good, but it did not give me the control over my store that I wanted. So I found Python and Qooxdoo and CherryPy that allow me to build a web application that I have total control over both at the client and server level. Qooxdoo allows you to build an object oriented application. The underlying html, sylesheets, etc.. are completely abstracted away. By the way, this is Tom responding not Debora. She told be to say that so that I do not embarrass her!


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

backwoodsman7 said:


> It loads now, so that must've been the case.
> 
> 
> I use Firefox on Linux. When it wouldn't load I assumed it was a browser issue, although that's rare these days. Current stats on my website show about 70% IE, and the rest other stuff, mostly Firefox.
> ...


Thanks for the feedback. We ARE trying to accomodate the users with different resolutions and screen sizes by making the windows floatable and resizeable. We think this is the best way to allow them to place the windows the best way for their particular setup. The table should always be completely visible and hopefully the users can move and adjust the windows to fit their display.


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## lharvey (Jul 1, 2003)

Ummmmmmmm

Don't ask if you don't want to know the truth...

Loose the pop ups totally. Cutesy but not friendly.

There is no content. You need to have content.

Suggested Pages at a minimum:
1.) Welcome [Home]
2.) About
3.) Contact
4.) How 
5.) Browse for books. Maybe a special book of the month thing

Like I said if I were designing this for a customer, these would be the pages I would do just to get started. 

Content has GOT to have some graphics. People want little words and much to see.. 

Load times.... Slow if it loads at all. Looks like the Db side of the server is hanging up. I'm on a 10 Mbps connection here in the office.

All the pop ups slow the loading, and will drive your intended audience away in droves.

I definitely wouldn't send this live until you have finished the shopping cart section of the site.

Summary...

From a programmer, designer point of view, it is clunky, slow and not visually appealing.

And yes, it is OK to disagree with me.

PS>


> I looked around at several store applications, including oscommerce about a year ago.


I've done many OS Commerce sites for customers and they are really very easy to customize once you learn the lay out of the land. 

Lee


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

> Ummmmmmmm Don't ask if you don't want to know the truth...


We definitely do want to know. Thanks for answering.
...


> There is no content. You need to have content.


We consider the content to be the listing of books in the main table. We want to let people find books. Plain and simple.
...


> Content has GOT to have some graphics. People want little words and much to see.


We are trying to make a site where information is easy to find. The graphics that seem necessary are the buttons for navigation and of course the images of the books. Plus some well placed graphics for looks. 
...


> Load times.... Slow if it loads at all. Looks like the Db side of the server is hanging up. I'm on a 10 Mbps connection here in the office.


We do not have the speed problem. Our site loads from a server in Houston in about 4 seconds.(from the time we hit the load button until everything is rendered and ready for user input is about 4 seconds). Once it is loaded, then it is all there, no more to load except of course the actual book data from the searches. It takes about 2 seconds from the time we hit the search button until the time the table is loaded and the system is waiting for more input. And when we open one of the windows, it is less than a second. Since yours is loading so slow it would be nice to figure out why. 
...


> All the pop ups slow the loading, and will drive your intended audience away in droves.


The windows are part of the application. They allow to show and manage information while leaving the main focus, the table with as much real estate as possible. Are the windows slow at loading or is it the data in the windows slow to appear? 
...


> I definitely wouldn't send this live until you have finished the shopping cart section of the site.


There may or may not be some kind of shopping cart. This is an area that needs much consideration.
...


> I've done many OS Commerce sites for customers and they are really very easy to customize once you learn the lay out of the land.


I just have to have more control. The bookstore is just one example of applications that I am developing. I am working on a development environment that will allow for the creation of any type of client/server application, not only something centered around a store. Again, thanks for the time you took to look at Featherbottoms and respond.


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## FD2N4P (May 10, 2007)

couldn't get it to load


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

FD2N4P said:


> couldn't get it to load


We *think* we got the server fixed. Please try again and let us know if there's a problem.

Debora


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

I have been waiting for it to load for over 5 minutes (might be 7 minutes but I didn't look at the time right away). Never saw anything but "Loading Featherbottoms Bookserver..."

I'm on a dialup, usually around 45kps, but that doesn't keep lots of commercial sites from loading quickly. 

Another 3 minutes have gone by. Still nothing.

Edit: another 20 minutes, still nothing.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

featherbottoms said:


> The browser cannot block them because they are not browser windows,



my browser blocks them. That way I complained about them. I had to drop into IE to actually see the content. Firefox with my plug ins dont allow popups regardless of type.


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

WisJim said:


> I have been waiting for it to load for over 5 minutes (might be 7 minutes but I didn't look at the time right away). Never saw anything but "Loading Featherbottoms Bookserver..."
> 
> I'm on a dialup, usually around 45kps, but that doesn't keep lots of commercial sites from loading quickly.
> 
> ...


To start with, I am sorry that you had to suffer through the wait. We have tested this site with Internet Explorer and Firefox on broadband, but never on dialup. We do want it to work on dialup. I think that your site would not load because a timeout setting is not set high enough. It is something that I will do some research on. Thanks for looking at Featherbottoms and taking the time to respond. Tom


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

Gary in ohio said:


> my browser blocks them. That way I complained about them. I had to drop into IE to actually see the content. Firefox with my plug ins dont allow popups regardless of type.


We have tested the site with Internet Explorer and Firefox. Featherbottoms is developed on Linux and I love Konqueror ( a linux file manager and browser) but the site will not work on Konqueror. Previously we tested some on Opera but it did not do well on Opera and we gave up on Opera for the time being. Again, the windows are part of the application to help manipulate information and navigate. I know it is different for a web page and that windows on web pages have a bad rap. But think about your desktop applications including your browser. They use window extensively and have since Microsoft came out with windows. It is just my opinion but I think that in the future the browser window is going to house full blown applications with windows and all the trimmings. And the browsers will get faster and smarter to accommodate this. Thanks again looking and responding.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

featherbottoms said:


> We have tested the site with Internet Explorer and Firefox.


I didn't have a problem loading your page, and it has a nice appearance. However, I'm big on search engine compatibility.

You rely a lot on Java Script so you didn't provide much header info for the search engines. Moreover, there is no page content visible in the main page. Until you provide at least a title, description, and some page content the search engines won't have any basis upon which they can rank your page.


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I didn't have a problem loading your page, and it has a nice appearance. However, I'm big on search engine compatibility.
> 
> You rely a lot on Java Script so you didn't provide much header info for the search engines. Moreover, there is no page content visible in the main page. Until you provide at least a title, description, and some page content the search engines won't have any basis upon which they can rank your page.


To be quite honest I do not know anything about search engines though I know that it is something that needs to be addressed. This is how my thinking goes though. I think that search engines favor certain types of content on your html page. My first html page (index.html) is only used to load the qooxdoo javascript libraries and then it is hidden to the user, but not to the search robots. So I am thinking that I could put things in the index.html that search engines just love and in the format that search engines just love. Because only the bot will see it. Anyway this is my line of thought. Any comments would be appreciated because I do plead ignorance on this subject and would like to learn. Thanks for responding about the site. Tom


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## alpha phi (Oct 16, 2007)

featherbottoms said:


> To be quite honest I do not know anything about search engines though I know that it is something that needs to be addressed. This is how my thinking goes though. I think that search engines favor certain types of content on your html page. My first html page (index.html) is only used to load the qooxdoo javascript libraries and then it is hidden to the user, but not to the search robots. So I am thinking that I could put things in the index.html that search engines just love and in the format that search engines just love. Because only the bot will see it. Anyway this is my line of thought. Any comments would be appreciated because I do plead ignorance on this subject and would like to learn. Thanks for responding about the site. Tom


Search engines greatly dislike hidden info.
Pages with text written for bots, hidden from users will cause your page to rank much lower.
Perhaps your index.html should be a static page, that lets users and S.E. know what the site is about.
Then link to the search program.
Write the page for users first, then give it a good SEO mod.

http://whois.domaintools.com/featherbottoms.com
This is what a search engine will see.
Click on the box at the right that say's "SEO Text Browser"
to "drive" a search engine.


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

> Search engines greatly dislike hidden info.


I don't think that the information from my index.html is actually hidden from the search engine. By hidden I mean that a visual html element is in front of the information. This cannot hide the information on the page from a search engine. Or can it. I have learned not to assume anything. 
...


> Perhaps your index.html should be a static page, that lets users and S.E. know what the site is about.


My index.html is a static page. (it is temprarily not due to some troubleshooting of the server, but usually is). So the info literally is still under my qooxdoo widgets. I think that it is up to the qooxdoo page to communicate to the user what it does instead of making him click another link.

...


> http://whois.domaintools.com/featherbottoms.com
> This is what a search engine will see.


This is really a great page. Many many thanks to you. But what is a good SEO score I ask?

Thanks again for looking at the site and responding with feedback. I have never run a server before and I need to learn server stuff!


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## alpha phi (Oct 16, 2007)

featherbottoms said:


> I don't think that the information from my index.html is actually hidden from the search engine. By hidden I mean that a visual html element is in front of the information. This cannot hide the information on the page from a search engine. Or can it. I have learned not to assume anything.
> ...


Yes the bot can and will read most everything, It will also check if a internet user can read it. If not your SEO score, and page rank is reduced.
often the info will be "tossed out" as well


featherbottoms said:


> This is really a great page. Many many thanks to you. But what is a good SEO score I ask?
> 
> Thanks again for looking at the site and responding with feedback. I have never run a server before and I need to learn server stuff!


100% ofcourse 
When I build a site the front page must be atleast 98% and it must validate.
at W3C 
http://validator.w3.org/
(my personal standard)
The rest of the page's can vary depending on importance/funtionality.
The home page is what you want listed and ranked top anyway.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

alpha phi said:


> Perhaps your index.html should be a static page


That's always preferred, at least from a search engine point of view.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

Unable to type anything in the search boxes.


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## donsgal (May 2, 2005)

featherbottoms said:


> I posted this on the cf forum but decided to ask here too.
> 
> Would appreciate some feedback on this website
> 
> ...



I am kind of with Mistletoad ont his one. I honestly did not like it. It is too complicated, too "fiddly". My favorite websites are those which are most simple and easy to navigate. I detest pop-up anythings! No offense intended, as you asked for honest evaluations, sooooooo, two thumbs down, featherbottoms. Your interface will hinder sales, IMHO and if that is what you are after, my opinion is to try a different one.

donsgal


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## MeanDean (Apr 16, 2002)

featherbottoms said:


> Would appreciate some feedback on this website
> 
> featherbottoms books
> 
> We're having some server issues right now so if it doesn't load properly, please try again.


With regards to books, there is a very successful model already out there for selling both used and new ... instead this site tries to forge new territory with little pay-out, here's what I mean:

For example, when I get to your page, first thing I ask myself is, what is all this white space I'm looking at - and what am I supposed to do?
When I finally realize I'm supposed to search to the left, I enter "wind" ... I get gone with the wind, but can't really see that title due to the way the table is constructed in an 800x600 mode.
I now have to work right to left (in a culture that reads left to right) and bottom to top (in a culture that reads top to bottom) to click on the "view selected" ... provided I know to select the book on the table first.
I get popups - once I turn the blocker off - click purchase, and yet another popup, partially obscured by an image of the book. It's not clear I'm supposed to print this out ... and not sure what the rest of the procedure is.
This second (unblocked) popup is a wall of text, offering nothing to make it easier to buy online ... making me think ... why didn't I search for this book used on Google books or Google products?
Speaking of which, no ISBN number is provided - which I might want if I'm a collector
The point is very simply this - the site attempts re-invents the well established wheel for shopping cart applications. Why? Why throw up unfamiliar and/or unexpected encumbrances in the user's path?
There's just too high an unconventional learning for no online purchase option. I'd just assume read a blog about these old books with a simple contact form if e-payments aren't going to be provided.
Moreover, I can only image the maintenance nightmare on the back-end this site would become if it did get successful.
Instead why not stick with a familiar, existing model that works ... that is, ask yourself ... "_what would Amazon  do?_"


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

WisJim said:


> Unable to type anything in the search boxes.


You are right. It is happening with Internet Explorer. It is working correctly with firefox. We will get it fixed. Thanks.


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

donsgal said:


> I am kind of with Mistletoad ont his one. I honestly did not like it. It is too complicated, too "fiddly". My favorite websites are those which are most simple and easy to navigate.


I am trying to understand this. It seems it is easy to navigate to us. After the page loads you can be viewing the detailed information for a book with one click and one double click.

If you click on the search button after the page loads, without doing anything else, one click lists every book in the database. Then a doubleclick on a book in the table shows the detailed information. I am really trying to understand why this seems so complicated.




> I detest pop-up anythings! [


Windows have been a part of a graphical user interface for twenty years. I know that windows have a bad rap on webpages. These windows are part of the program. The regular applications on your computer, including your browser, make extensive use of windows. Why can't web applications look like regular applications?


> ]No offense intended, as you asked for honest evaluations, sooooooo, two thumbs down, featherbottoms. Your interface will hinder sales, IMHO and if that is what you are after, my opinion is to try a different one.
> 
> donsgal


No offense taken. We want the honest truth and appreciate your feedback.


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

MeanDean said:


> For example, when I get to your page, first thing I ask myself is, what is all this white space I'm looking at - and what am I supposed to do?


_
There are two ways to find out what to do. There is an *Overview* button at the top. It says in part near the beginning 

Featherbottoms is an internet only bookstore that is designed for quick and simple book searches.
You can enable the help system by clicking the check box next to Enable Help.
Here are some helpful hints to get you going:

* Use the search box window to make your searches. ....
* The default action on the search box window is to match everything (if you do not enter any search parameters you will bring back all of the books in the database). ​
And then if you do enable the help system by clicking on the *Enable Help* button, context specific help is shown when you hold your mouse over the table, the search box, the search button, the Reset Fields search button, and more.




[*]When I finally realize I'm supposed to search to the left, I enter "wind" ... I get gone with the wind, but can't really see that title due to the way the table is constructed in an 800x600 mode.

[*]I now have to work right to left (in a culture that reads left to right) and bottom to top (in a culture that reads top to bottom) to click on the "view selected" ... provided I know to select the book on the table first.

Click to expand...

I am not sure what you mean by "the table is constructed in an 800x600 mode. Is it being rendered differently than everything else, or is everything in 800x600? 
If you enable the help, it states pretty clearly how to highlight a book and select it. I would also think that the *View Selected* button at the top of the table would serve as a hint.




[*]I get popups - once I turn the blocker off - click purchase, and yet another popup, partially obscured by an image of the book. It's not clear I'm supposed to print this out ... and not sure what the rest of the procedure is.

[*]This second (unblocked) popup is a wall of text, offering nothing to make it easier to buy online ... making me think ... why didn't I search for this book used on Google books or Google products?

[*]The point is very simply this - the site attempts re-invents the well established wheel for shopping cart applications. Why? Why throw up unfamiliar and/or unexpected encumbrances in the user's path?

Click to expand...

Because things change and sometimes they are for the better. I believe strongly that web pages are going to become full blown web applications, including windows that ultimately will help the end user get work donel.





[*]There's just too high an unconventional learning for no online purchase option. I'd just assume read a blog about these old books with a simple contact form if e-payments aren't going to be provided.

Click to expand...

This is Debora answering this part. I'm guilty of the text on this page. I am glad you looked at it because I am going to go over it again and redo the way that it is worded. You are correct, it is unclear what to do.

We are not trying an online shopping "experience". The purpose of this application is to connect a buyer and a seller.





[*]Speaking of which, no ISBN number is provided - which I might want if I'm a collector

Click to expand...

Debora again here. We will be adding the ISBN search option. Most of my books are pre ISBN (the Gone With The Wind book you looked at is pre ISBN) so it hasn't been important to have that capability. We will get it on there asap.




[*]Moreover, I can only image the maintenance nightmare on the back-end this site would become if it did get successful.[/list]
Instead why not stick with a familiar, existing model that works ... that is, ask yourself ... "what would Amazon  do?"

Click to expand...

I assume the maintenance nightmare is because of not having a shopping cart. There are other ways to keep up with your accounting information. If not, what maintenance problems do you foresee?

Again, thanks for your feedback. I know this app is different, but we are trying hard to understand why it seems difficult.

Tom_


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## MeanDean (Apr 16, 2002)

featherbottoms said:


> There are two ways to find out what to do. There is an *Overview* button at the top.
> ...


And I intuitively know that from what user experience, common metaphor or other existing Internet idiom?


featherbottoms said:


> I assume the maintenance nightmare is because of not having a shopping cart. There are other ways to keep up with your accounting information. If not, what maintenance problems do you foresee?


The same problems of site maintenance that have plagued most e-commerce sites v. workflow for the past 12-14 years


featherbottoms said:


> Again, thanks for your feedback. I know this app is different, but we are trying hard to understand why it seems difficult.


The answer can be found in Steve Krug's "Don't Make Me Think" ...

... re-inventing the wheel is the antithesis of said message.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

featherbottoms said:


> You are right. It is happening with Internet Explorer. It is working correctly with firefox. We will get it fixed. Thanks.


But I use Firefox, not Explorer.

Also--I use Bookfinder.com a lot, and find that I have no trouble using their web site to connect up with booksellers.


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## via media (Jun 3, 2005)

Hi,

I work a lot with web usability so I hope my comments are helpful for you:

- On the start page, change all text to black. Blue text should be reserved for links only and red is highly discouraged unless it's a warning (missing information when a form is submitted, etc.).

- Stick with a web-friendly font such as Verdana. The intro text today looks like it's Times New Roman.

- Move the Overview, Contact us, About and How to purchase down below the featherbottoms logo

- 'About' is generally perceived to be more of an 'about our company' section as opposed to an 'about this website' section. I would rename this to About us and move some of the Overview text into this section. 

- Please, please, please...lose the popups. Application or not, popups are generally considered to be ads and are more of a distraction than a help. Popup boxes are not the future of web-based applications.

- You did a great job of not using the start page to give an in-depth description of the history of the company, which used to be a common mistake. You could get more miles from your start space by making the search function a prominent link and advertising latest acquisitions, specials, etc. instead.

- Also related to the start page: Add a Featured book/genre/author/subject with some detail and links to the books you have available and change this regularly. 

- When I click on the Enable Help tickbox, a popup appears with an explanation. Closing this (annoying!) popup then disables the help function. I would remove this altogether and move the help information directly to the Search page.

- That bright yellow is a bit jarring, both when mousing over links and for the background of the popup boxes. Users understand they are over a link when the arrow changes to a hand. 

- The featherbottoms logo in the top banner should be a link back to the start page.

- In the Overview popup, I'd remove the text about the email address not working for Firefox. It draws attention to a flaw and most users know to copy/paste an email address into their mail program if it's not clickable in the browser.

- The Contact Us section should be a page (not a popup!!) with real contact information such as a mailing address, phone number, email address, some committment of when mail enquires will be answered, etc. It projects an image that you are a real business and not some fly-by-night scam that will use my credit card number to vacation in Tahiti.

- As was mentioned earlier, the search criteria should be moved to the left side of the screen as opposed to the right. Studies have shown that people start in the upper left corner of the screen and scan diagonally downward toward the bottom right corner. 

- I just found the contact information in the how to order popup. I would move this to the correct location.

- Self-explanatory labels and links do not need tooltips to reiterate the obvious. For example, hovering over Contact Us displays a tooltip that says 'Contact Featherbottoms' and hovering on Search brings up a tooltip that says 'Begin searching'.

- The column of available fields for search criteria is centered which looks a bit messy. It's better to left-align the column and move it in a little closer to the text boxes.

- I think someone already mentioned it? but the natural inclination is to press Enter once the search criteria has been entered.

- You may want to check into a web reporting application that will give you information about the people/computers who visit your site, such as WebTrends. I don't know the cost for this but the information can be quite useful. If 98% of the people visiting your site are using IE7, then you should really work to make sure everything works perfectly for that browser. The same with screen resolution. What search words were used by visitors coming from Google, Yahoo, etc? What was the average length of time people spent on the site? If people come to your site and immediately leave, that's a big sign saying to revamp your start page. 

- On a side note, the site didn't load for me on the first two attempts but this could be something you're already working on.

Also, I appreciate the grace with which you've accepted criticism rather than taking it as a personal attack and stomping away. Everyone has an opinion and it's up to you which ones to take and which to leave. I wish you success with your site and your business!

/VM


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

> And I intuitively know that from what user experience, common metaphor or other existing Internet idiom?


I think that it would be intuitive to look at a button called Overview or a button called Enable Help if I was trying to learn what to do. It comes from looking at different software applications over time.



> The same problems of site maintenance that have plagued most e-commerce sites v. workflow for the past 12-14 years


 I have never built or maintained any e-commerce systems. So I will have to learn.




> The answer can be found in Steve Krug's "Don't Make Me Think" ...
> ... re-inventing the wheel is the antithesis of said message.


The wheel is continually being reinvented. Why did Google even bother? There were already many search engines available such as Alta Vista, Dogpile, Ask Jeeves, and I assume Microsoft had one. Things continually change and hopefully for the better.


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

via media said:


> Hi,
> 
> I work a lot with web usability so I hope my comments are helpful for you:


It shows. You have brought up alot of good points.



> - On the start page, change all text to black. Blue text should be reserved for links only and red is highly discouraged unless it's a warning (missing information when a form is submitted, etc.).
> 
> - Stick with a web-friendly font such as Verdana. The intro text today looks like it's Times New Roman.
> 
> - Move the Overview, Contact us, About and How to purchase down below the featherbottoms logo


 The buttons at the top used to be under the logo and I moved them above because I thought that it looked better that way. However , the page layout has changed somewhat since then and I will move them back to see what it looks like now. 



> - 'About' is generally perceived to be more of an 'about our company' section as opposed to an 'about this website' section. I would rename this to About us and move some of the Overview text into this section.


 I was using the About button to try to give credit to the open source software used to create the application. The information in these top buttons could be better organized.



> - Please, please, please...lose the popups. Application or not, popups are generally considered to be ads and are more of a distraction than a help. Popup boxes are not the future of web-based applications.


Why are window NOT the future? I do respect your opinion, but I believe that users will interact with internet applications via a tried and tested gui complete with windows. Consider the other software on your computer. Why is it desireable to have windows on your application software and not on your internet software? And look at google's new stuff. (http://docs.google.com). Not only is it full of windows, but you access these windows through a context menu that you right click to get to. Talk about different. I know that windows have a bad rap, but I think that users will start using more and more windows to get work done. When Microsoft came out with windows long ago, it changed the way people worked. I think that it is about to happen on the internet.

-


> You did a great job of not using the start page to give an in-depth description of the history of the company, which used to be a common mistake. You could get more miles from your start space by making the search function a prominent link and advertising latest acquisitions, specials, etc. instead.
> 
> - Also related to the start page: Add a Featured book/genre/author/subject with some detail and links to the books you have available and change this regularly.


This page is not really an e-commerce site. Our design goal when we started was to build a system that would allow a user to easily search for books in a database and then connect the potential buyer with the seller. We can easily bring back 2000+ books from a search and put the results in a table that the user can sort by title, author, etc.. They can also scroll through the table from top to bottom. 




> - When I click on the Enable Help tickbox, a popup appears with an explanation. Closing this (annoying!) popup then disables the help function. I would remove this altogether and move the help information directly to the Search page.
> - That bright yellow is a bit jarring, both when mousing over links and for the background of the popup boxes. Users understand they are over a link when the arrow changes to a hand.


The yellow window is the help system. When the window is open, it shows context specific help when the mouse is held over the table, the search box, or the buttons. It can be resized and moved out of the way with the mouse. Because the checkbox opens it and closing the window closes it, it is easy to enable it and disable it quickly.




> - The featherbottoms logo in the top banner should be a link back to the start page.


I cannot link back to the start page because there is only one page. Everything is loaded dynamically. 



> - In the Overview popup, I'd remove the text about the email address not working for Firefox. It draws attention to a flaw and most users know to copy/paste an email address into their mail program if it's not clickable in the browser.


It is not a flaw that Firefox does not do email. I have read that firefox does not enable the email link because of security reasons. A user can set Firefox to follow it.

-


> Self-explanatory labels and links do not need tooltips to reiterate the obvious. For example, hovering over Contact Us displays a tooltip that says 'Contact Featherbottoms' and hovering on Search brings up a tooltip that says 'Begin searching'.


I totally agree. 



> - I think someone already mentioned it? but the natural inclination is to press Enter once the search criteria has been entered.


I agree with this also. It used to be that way.



> - You may want to check into a web reporting application that will give you information about the people/computers who visit your site, such as WebTrends. I don't know the cost for this but the information can be quite useful. If 98% of the people visiting your site are using IE7, then you should really work to make sure everything works perfectly for that browser. The same with screen resolution. What search words were used by visitors coming from Google, Yahoo, etc? What was the average length of time people spent on the site? If people come to your site and immediately leave, that's a big sign saying to revamp your start page.


Information is power. Gotta agree again.



> - On a side note, the site didn't load for me on the first two attempts but this could be something you're already working on.


I have been updating the 'live' site frequently which could explain it. But other than that, I don't know. But I would like to know from people if this is a problem.



> Also, I appreciate the grace with which you've accepted criticism rather than taking it as a personal attack and stomping away. Everyone has an opinion and it's up to you which ones to take and which to leave. I wish you success with your site and your business!
> /VM


I appreciate your effort and the time it took for you to provide this feedback. And remember, windows are not bad, it is how you use them


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## MeanDean (Apr 16, 2002)

featherbottoms said:


> ... Why are window NOT the future? I do respect your opinion, but I believe that users will interact with internet applications via a tried and tested gui complete with windows. Consider the other software on your computer. Why is it desireable to have windows on your application software and not on your internet software? And look at google's new stuff. (http://docs.google.com). Not only is it full of windows, but you access these windows through a context menu that you right click to get to ...


Again, I'd ask you reconsider re-inventing the wheel - and perhaps reading up on usability by experts such as Steve Krug and Jakob Nielsen ... authorities that even Google cites in their application development.

On the latter, they do not provide windows upon windows. Look at their service light search engine as the basis - or recent changes to gmail to streamline its interface.

Fact is, they are primarily a software as a service provider - who gleans revenue from ads. If that is your business model, then I'd suggest following their lead in that area.

If your business model is different - that is if you are providing an e-commerce service that sells items over the Internet, then I'd suggest considering Amazon's lead.

Either way, your online application not as client-based windows applications as you cite as your defense of your interface. That is not what online users want nor expect.

Moreover, others have tried to be nice and let you know gently that your client-based interface online interface is not intuitive, not even in terms of Microsoft's Windows GUI documentation (a.k.a. 'The Windows Interface Guidelines for Software Design') ... nor usability and accessibility as documented by the aforementioned authors and others such as Jeffry Zeldman, Vincent Flanders, the folks at 37 Signals, etc ...

Meaning, the topic of conversation here should not be justifications for what you're trying to do - but on how to implement accepted convention in helping users accomplish what they're trying to do.

I would suggest some off-the-street, on-the-cheap user testing where random subjects are pulled in to accomplish a number of common tasks / solutions provided by your services ... without any aid or interruption by those administering the test.


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

MeanDean said:


> Again, I'd ask you reconsider re-inventing the wheel - and perhaps reading up on usability by experts such as Steve Krug and Jakob Nielsen ... authorities that even Google cites in their application development.
> 
> On the latter, they do not provide windows upon windows. Look at their service light search engine as the basis - or recent changes to gmail to streamline its interface.
> 
> ...


You and other people on this forum have provided alot of thoughtful and valuable feedback and we have changed some things in the application because of it. However. I believe to the core of my being that a 'desktop like' interface is coming to the web. Even if you and others do not agree with me, I still consider your feedback to be very important.
I know that you are busy and I do appreciate your time and effort. Tom.


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## backwoodsman7 (Mar 22, 2007)

featherbottoms said:


> However. I believe to the core of my being that a 'desktop like' interface is coming to the web.


You may be right, or not. I and others have given advice based on the assumption that you intend to make money from your website. But it's become clear that your intention is not to make money, but to be a martyr for the cause of a "desktop like" web interface. With that in mind, you're free to try out all the non-standard interface elements you want, and not worry about all the users who will just go elsewhere instead of taking the time to figure out how to use your website.

If, on the other hand, you were to change your mind and decide you do want to try to make the site earn its keep, then you'd really want to take some of the advice that's been offered here.


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## MeanDean (Apr 16, 2002)

featherbottoms said:


> . I believe to the core of my being that a 'desktop like' interface is coming to the web. Even if you and others do not agree with me...


Tom, I am the product manager for a successful software as a service company with 16 online products that have made us #85 among the Inc 500 of privately held firms.

While Ajax is bringing *some* desktop-like functionality to the web - it is not, nor will it be to the degree you assert with your current UI - at the cost of some very precarious security concerns.

This is in part due to
in part different usability and accessibility standards,
in part due to vendors NOT wanting to go down that path,
in part due to changes in user habits,
in part due to how data is retrieved and rendered
Again, I'd suggest reading-up on some of the writings of better known experts in this field.


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

MeanDean said:


> Tom, I am the product manager for a successful software as a service company with 16 online products that have made us #85 among the Inc 500 of privately held firms.
> 
> While Ajax is bringing *some* desktop-like functionality to the web - it is not, nor will it be to the degree you assert with your current UI - at the cost of some very precarious security concerns.
> 
> ...


I honestly do appreciate your advice and this forum that allows me to communicate with others. And I honestly do want to make money somewhere down the road. 
However, I have to do what I believe in. 
Tom


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## MeanDean (Apr 16, 2002)

featherbottoms said:


> I honestly do appreciate your advice and this forum that allows me to communicate with others. And I honestly do want to make money somewhere down the road.
> However, I have to do what I believe in.
> Tom


Then I suggest basing beliefs on facts ... starting with Microsoft's book 'The Windows Interface Guidelines for Software Design' as your app. currently violates as many client-based tenants as it does browser-based services.


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