# Plow or till



## bstuart29 (Jul 11, 2006)

I have clay soil here but it's been amended over the years but still has plenty of clay in it so was wondering if others thought it be better to plow it or till it using a Rototiller on a tractor?


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Tilling is a one-shot deal. Plowing requires a followup with disk or a tiller. Plowing flips whatever is on the surface to whatever depth the plow is set at. Tilling incorporates it evenly throughout the depth of the tiller. I'd go with the tiller and also continue amending the clay soil with both organic matter plus either or both of the two other materials which make up normal soil, silt and sand. Silt and clay combined can be worse than either separately but every grain of sand added brings it that much closer to loam. (Clay loam is 27% to 40% clay and 20% to 45% sand.) If you have access to sand, one inch of that worked in with a tiller would be great when combined with another inch of finished compost. Depending upon the actual percentage of clay that you have, each inch may be enough to be 15% of your tilled depth. Annual addition of about an inch of compost would be sufficient to maintain an excellent soil structure. Tilling organic matter/compost into the soil also supplies food for the endogeic type of earthworms which work in the top 8" of the soil. They would thus be able to help aerate the soil as well as being quicker than bacteria to break down organic matter. If they don't have food, they do not stay.

Martin


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## mellowguy (Jul 8, 2009)

Plowing first may be helpful to kill weed and grass roots. If it's not necessary, I'd skip to tilling and amending as suggested by Martin.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I would not till in the fall, leaves no organics on top, leaving it open to erosion and compaction. Plowing in the fall leaves soil open but rain can trickle down into the soil and helps break down any clods. Tilling will keep soil damp and cold longer in the spring, will need opened up to dry out and get the soil warm. I only use a tiller for making a seed bed, if too wet it will cause a hardpan. I would rather use a cultivator in the spring on plowed ground....James


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## bstuart29 (Jul 11, 2006)

I was referring to leaving it for the winter. Is it better to plow it and let it mellow or till it. Would plowing it dry it out faster in the spring?


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## bstuart29 (Jul 11, 2006)

jwal10 said:


> I would not till in the fall, leaves no organics on top, leaving it open to erosion and compaction. Plowing in the fall leaves soil open but rain can trickle down into the soil and helps break down any clods. Tilling will keep soil damp and cold longer in the spring, will need opened up to dry out and get the soil warm. I only use a tiller for making a seed bed, if too wet it will cause a hardpan. I would rather use a cultivator in the spring on plowed ground....James


 Thanks James, this is what I was asking about. With the clay it takes a long time to dry out in the spring


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

i work my soil by hand, but keep the leaching to a minumum by layering manure, compost, leaves and old hay and straw on top.
i am sure this will also work if your soil is worked mechanically.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I don't like a tiller at all, if the soil is good it does more harm than good. If you can plow it now would be best and set all winter to mellow. If you have manure or such put it on first, then plow. Anything on top is good, just don't pack it down getting it on. I use almost all raised beds now. I don't work it at all, just plant in the undisturbed soil. Few weeds that way. As SquashNut says, anything on top is good to stop the soil from packing down....James


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

jwal10 said:


> Tilling will keep soil damp and cold longer in the spring, will need opened up to dry out and get the soil warm.


No it won't. He's got clay. Tilling in organic matter right now will keep that soil loose all winter and will dry out quicker in the spring. 

Advice for clay can not be the same as established beds of different soil structure such as you and Squashnut have. And, in the case of clay, there is not other way to change it to anything else without plowing or tilling. No matter how much of anything else if piled on top, it's still going to be clay under it.

Martin


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

What are the other conditions? How much area? What kind of plow or tiller? How much residue on top? Sod and grass? Plowing/tilling in the spring, or now? Can you afford to do it twice? Have you shovelled around in some of the spots? How deep is the topsoil until you hit raw clay, or is there clay throughout? What is your window of opportunity?

Area will determine how easy it is to get soil turned up in the corners. A plow will slice a few feet before it gets to depth; a rototiller can be backed into the corner for evenness.

Kind of equipment will determine the depth. Most plows can go at least to seven or eight inches deep. Rototiller depth will be governed by tine depth, amount of surface residue, and horsepower and pushdown weight of the tiller and tractor. A one row plow, behind a small tractor, like a Ford, will seal the clay at the plow sole, plus the weight of the tractor wheel in each furrow will add compaction. A rototiller, especially in clay will probably create the same seal at the tine depth--especially if it is worked too wet.

Sod and grass should be worked in the fall to allow early spring decomposition, but unless you have a really big rototiller, you will just chop up the surface residue to about half of the tine depth and seal the soil underneath--leaving another job to do in the springtime. (This happened at our little church plot this past week--now there is a four inch layer of chopped up grass and dirt, with hardpan underneath.....they used a garden tractor with a fairly shallow tiller....) That's why the question, can you afford to do it twice?

The depth of the topsoil layer is fairly critical in that first working of ground that has been dormant, or semi-dormant for awhile. Regardless of the method--if your first tillage is below the depth already ammended and you turn up/in raw clay, it's gonna take a lot more ammending from the start at planting time. 

Window of opporuinity. At no time should clay soil be worked wet. You should learn the basic fistful test before you start. Grab a handful, squeeze it into a ball, then see how it comes apart. If it stays in a clump and shows your skinprint, or you can make a kindergarden worm out of it--leave the soil alone until it dries out more. If it crumbles when you rub it with your fingers, go ahead and till. You'll learn how to watch the radar, I'm sure if you garden much.......

My recommendation: The biggest, heaviest rototiller you can find, now, if it is dry soil--I'm thinking Howard Rotovator behind fifty horses..... Or plow, now, to the topsoil depth, if dry, and let the weather mellow it until spring--then a light rototilling for seedbed prep. I would not fool with light-duty rototillers at this time, except for seedbed prep and weed control. (Check Craigslist--you'll want one for next year.) You will not have instant success with clay; it will take you a few years to get it back in shape.
Hope this helps
geo


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

My soil is/was clay. at least I think it was. If it got wet it was slippery. and bare wet pathes would allow people to sink up to their ankles or farther into the mud. I think it has improved more over the last 8-10 years because I feed the worms and they airiate the soil.
I've never brought in any sand or soil of any kind, but the previous owners may have.
The problem with having so many worms is they eat any organic mulch before the crop is harvested, so you need to remulch at least once, some times twice.
The soil can compact while growing carrots, even if it is well dug before seeding. I had twisted parsnips grow, even though I double dug the bed before seeding.
My dh talks about getting a new place, but there is no way I want to start a new garden, after working this soil for so long. It has been alot of work. I don't envy any one starting with clay soil that's for sure.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Paquebot said:


> No it won't. He's got clay. Tilling in organic matter right now will keep that soil loose all winter and will dry out quicker in the spring.
> 
> Advice for clay can not be the same as established beds of different soil structure such as you and Squashnut have. And, in the case of clay, there is not other way to change it to anything else without plowing or tilling. No matter how much of anything else if piled on top, it's still going to be clay under it.
> 
> Martin


 A tractor tiller in the fall creates a hardpan, makes the soil too fine, seals the clay soil off and it will pack down during the winter and stay wet and cold longer in the spring. A tractor tiller destroys the tilth of good soil. If you have light well drained soil and you can put a lot of organics in the soil, you might get away with a light pass to incorporate but not pulverise the soil....James


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

jwal10 said:


> A tractor tiller in the fall creates a hardpan, makes the soil too fine, seals the clay soil off and it will pack down during the winter and stay wet and cold longer in the spring. A tractor tiller destroys the tilth of good soil. If you have light well drained soil and you can put a lot of organics in the soil, you might get away with a light pass to incorporate but not pulverise the soil....James


My reply is still NO. Farmers have been fall plowing for centuries because the soil WILL dry quicker in the spring. Hardpan can only be formed by compaction, be it from heavy equipment or years of rainfall. 

Defending tilth is a lame excuse by those who call deep digging no-till. Merely planting a tomato plant or digging a row of carrots disrupts the tilth just as a tiller or plow. And if a person has clay soil, the last thing that he wants is to keep the same tilth unless he's interested only in growing sod or creating a putting green.

Back to the OP, and the desire to improve structure and fertility of the clay soil for next year, it can only be best accomplished now. That would be by tilling in whatever is needed to improve it. Sand would bring it closer to loam and improve the structure. Organic matter would increase the fertility. Regardless of the age of the organic matter, allowing 6 months of bacterial action between now and planting time would vastly benefit whatever is planted by having the nutrients readily available. Waiting until spring to do that will not have much of it available to the young plants. In fact, depending upon the C/N ratio, it may be detrimental. It's presence will also prevent the clay from becoming hard and allow the continued flow of oxygen to the bacteria which would be converting it to available nutrients. 

Martin


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

If your having that much trouble with clay then tilling in half of your organic material and mulching it for the winter with leaves may be the only way to go.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

SquashNut said:


> It's going to take time to get a micro herd going. Your not going to do that in a couple of weeks in the spring. the only way to get it started is with organics and by incorporating air into the soil this fall.
> It is my opinion that with out a micro herd your organics will steal nitrogen over a longer period of time, as it will take longer for the organics to break down in a new garden.


So very, very true! And a number of gardeners were not exactly happy with their plots this year because of that. A thick layer of red oak leaves was plowed under last fall in a certain area. Spreading of 10 loads of fresh cow manure was cut short by 3 and the area which needed it most got none. Thus the leaves went under without enough nitrogen to break the leaves down in one season. That area will be super next year but at the expense of little harvest this year. It would have been somewhat better had it all been tilled in but plowing it was about like turning over a flat stone. It merely changed which side was up while doing nothing to whatever was in between. 

Martin


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I also alternate years using wood ash and lime in my clay soil. One year I used gypsum cause the neighbor behind us told me to.
Not sure if it helped or not.
This year may be a bit of each of the wood ash and lime.
I'll be puting the lime on this week and the wood ash is spread over the top all winter.
Read that the lime may knock the chick weeds down a little, as it likes acid soil.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

SquashNut said:


> I also alternate years using wood ash and lime in my clay soil. One year I used gypsum cause the neighbor behind us told me to.
> Not sure if it helped or not.


Gypsum is not one of the 3 things which make up soil structure/tilth but is one which is recommended for improving some types, especially clay. It's also something that isn't going to be done in a single season and thus greatly improves the tilth of the soil. Generally it is used only in alkaline soils. Thus either your neighbor was wrong or you aren't 100% certain as to what pH you have.

Martin


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Here are a couple of interesting web sites that may help gain some information about clay and other soil types. I will also put them in the sticky above "For your wintertime reading" so those of us with clay brains will have a longer time to absorb them......

http://www.water.rutgers.edu/Rain_Gardens/factsheet29.pdf

http://soils.usda.gov/technical/classification/




geo


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Paquebot said:


> Gypsum is not one of the 3 things which make up soil structure/tilth but is one which is recommended for improving some types, especially clay. It's also something that isn't going to be done in a single season and thus greatly improves the tilth of the soil. Generally it is used only in alkaline soils. Thus either your neighbor was wrong or you aren't 100% certain as to what pH you have.
> 
> Martin


I have since learned our neighbor was wrong. He had a weird sence of humor, I guess. Normally our soil here is acid. But for some reason the corn in the area where we put the gypsom did grow well that year.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Quote} Back to the OP, and the desire to improve structure and fertility of the clay soil for next year, it can only be best accomplished now. That would be by tilling in whatever is needed to improve it. Sand would bring it closer to loam and improve the structure. Organic matter would increase the fertility. Regardless of the age of the organic matter, allowing 6 months of bacterial action between now and planting time would vastly benefit whatever is planted by having the nutrients readily available. Waiting until spring to do that will not have much of it available to the young plants. In fact, depending upon the C/N ratio, it may be detrimental. It's presence will also prevent the clay from becoming hard and allow the continued flow of oxygen to the bacteria which would be converting it to available nutrients. 






bstuart29 said:


> I have clay soil here but it's been amended over the years but still has plenty of clay in it so was wondering if others thought it be better to plow it or till it using a Rototiller on a tractor?
> 
> I was referring to leaving it for the winter. Is it better to plow it and let it mellow or till it. Would plowing it dry it out faster in the spring? ?



Answer, Yes. Plow it, if there are a lot of organics turned under they will be well rotted and ready for the roots when they go down for moisture.

Didn't say he was wanting to do anything but plow or till, he was wanting to get on it earlier next spring. A lot of organics can hold water and keep it wet next spring. Plow it under....James


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Tilling would improve the tilth by creating an approximate 50/50 soil to pore balance which is what one is after when working with clay. Simply plowing does not create the pores. Tilling now means less work to get it ready for planting in the spring in order to break it up to create the needed pores. Merely turning clay over with a plow is as I stated in regards to turning over a rock. Unless they are broke up, they are still either a chunk of clay or a solid rock. By plowing now, it could mean a narrow weather window for preparing the clay for planting when that time should be used for planting. 

OP asked what others thought about which is better and it's been pretty much established why tilling is better. The only dissension appears to be the erroneous argument that tilled soil will dry slower. Other than that, as long as the OP is happy with his clay as is, gets it worked up sometime between now and planting time, and manages to plant something, that should be sufficient.

Martin


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## Granny Sue (Jan 12, 2009)

We have clay soil too. We plow in the fall, then re-plow in early spring as soon as the soil is dry enough (sometimes in mid-February). Fall plowing allows the ground to freeze and thaw which breaks up the clumps. Also allows more nitrogen to seep into the soil from snow (ir so we've been told--is this an old wives' tale?). 

My husband has something he calls a toother to break up the soil when we're reading to plant--it's a steel rail with spikes that face down; they're about 4 inches long, I'd guess. He pulls this behind the tractor and it crumbles the soil nicely, usually no tilling required to plant. After planting, we use a little mantis tiller in areas that are not mulched. Our soil gets better every year. Even the new garden started last year showed marked improvement this year and grew some ginormous sweet potatoes and tons of cucumbers, corn, etc.


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