# OMG This is so disappointing.....



## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I found out "puppy mills" do in fact exist. I've heard others speak of such things, but never actually encountered one. 

How on earth do I now find a reliable breeder who truly values the characteristics of the breed?

I feel like crying........................


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

Wish I could help. We are going to be using our new girl as a breeder later this year, but that will be a few months away. Just keep looking, and the right pup will come along. Know what you want, and don't settle for anything else. I learned that with LGD's, it may not be the "perfect" situation (i.e. a dirty puppy born and raised in a goat pen vs. a tidy ------ show pup look born and raised in the house), but everyone's idea of perfect differs. You will know be able to tell the difference though between a puppy mill just breeding to breed and profit, or someone who is truly trying to raise a solid working dog. Hang in there!


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

If they health test their breeding stock, they're a good bet. And by health test I do NOT mean they say "both parents are up to date on all their shots and their vet says they look great!" . I mean hips x-rayed at 2+ years of age with results from OFA or Penn Hip (a MUST for all large breed dogs), and any other recommended tests run (depends on the breed). 

Nothing worse IMO than getting a dog, spending the time and considerable effort necessary to train them from unruly puppy into a good solid dog, then having them go completely lame/blind and either be unable to work or have to be put down at a young age due to health problems that the breeder should have been screening for.


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

If you go to the website for your breed of choice you will find some breeders on your side of the country. I have paid 500.00 for a pet quality dog that was not showable and I have paid 2500.00 for a show quality dog. Both came from breeders who test the joints, eyes and breed true to the breed. Stuff happens.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I'm not in any real hurry; but I do want a female puppy from a breeder who values their dogs; and I'm learning not all I communicate with are honest.

I've been leaning toward the Kangal and/or Kangal mix, the German shepherd or the Anatolian shepherd. I don't mind paying a fair price (not in the thousands as I think that is for show dogs and I have no interest in those).

I've searched so many sites my eyes hurt. I found a breeder in Montana one of our HTers suggested I contact; so maybe later this year I can get one of his. Guess I'll just slow down and give myself some time to find the right pup. Seems the little goat kids running around the place put me in mind that this is the time for a puppy; so a little anxious. However, I sure don't want to make the mistake of encouraging a puppy mill to continue selling pups by mistakenly buying one of theirs.

Redgate, what breed do you have?


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

Around here, ours are known as a "Colorado Mountain Dog." It is a selectively bred 3/4 GP and 1/4 Anatolian, and only from proven working LGD lines. I have been absolutely thrilled with our first, but since I have always been a HUGE spay/neuter advocate, we got our girl spayed as soon as she was old enough. She then became the first animal I have EVER regretted spaying (and I have done MANY!). I soon realized the tremendous need for a "homestead LGD" for smaller acreages and flocks, and how perfect she was. After some research, I discovered a small group of folks in CO who had had similiar experiences, and had begun trying to establish the breed a little more to a standard. We began working together to search out genetics that met our ideal. I began looking for a sibling to my dog, and eventually found Iris, our new girl, who is 12 months. After I tested her, she met most of the criteria we were searching for. Now, I just want her to have some time to prove herself as a working LGD on our farm before pursuing breeding her. At this rate, I will begin looking for the right stud later this summer/fall. I am considering getting her hips certified when she is 2, but because of the hybrid vigor, her lines haven't had a problem so far, to my knowledge, so I am still debating. I'm afraid that's all I can offer at this point. Assuming she works out as I expect, the timing will then be based on when I can find a stud that meets the Colorado Mtn. Dog criteria.


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## Oregon Julie (Nov 9, 2006)

redgate so called hybrid vigor does not protect a dog from hip issues. If you breed a dog of one breed with bad hips to a dog of another breed with bad hips they are likely to produce pups with bad hips. The genes don't know that they are coming from two different breeds of dogs. I would suggest you get the dog x-rayed if you intend to breed from it, better safe then sorry.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Please don't be fooled by "hybrid vigor". This sometimes happens when two different species are crossed, like a mare and a donkey to produce a mule. A jennet and a stallion produces a hinney, which nobody wants. If you want a dog with good hips you first make sure both parents have good hips. Then, you properly feed and exercise the dog properly so it will grow strong.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

My Anatolian Zeus is 5 now, with no signs of bad hips. I do feed him raw meat daily, though. Sunni's parents were x-rayed, so I'm thinking she'll be OK. Feed her raw meat and the occasional rabbit, too.

I don't personally think hip dysplasia is that prevalent.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

This lady is great, just got my beautiful Anatolian female from her. I think she might have one left, and she does ship, was sending a really fantastic male to NC the day I was there...

http://kussarkisi.blogspot.com/


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

The so called hybrid vigor only occurs in crossing different TYPES of dog, crossbreds of the same type have all the same health issues of the parent breeds. For example crossing a greyhound and butchers bulldog results in a lurcher w/much less risk of dysplasia because only the bulldog carries for it and much less risk of osteosarcoma because the greyhound carries for it in a different way. OTH crossing a Dane and English mastiff produces a dog with all the health issues of the parent breeds because they both have the same issues. But even crossing different types isn't a garantee, if both specific breeds have a health issue in common. So if you crossed a Weimaraner & a greyline "blue pit bull" the pups would still have the skin problems associated with dilute colors.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Judy in IN said:


> I don't personally think hip dysplasia is that prevalent.


You might not think it - but it is. I've seen too many dogs crippled up by it. Good care and good muscling will hide the signs in a young dog if it's not severe, but when a 7 yo dog starts limping and taking his sweet time getting up, it's not arthritis, it's his bad hips catching up with him.
And just because both parents have a mild case and don't start gimping till middle age, doesn't mean they won't throw more severe cases when bred.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

"Physical compensation is the foundation rock upon which all enduring worth must be built".
Hip testing should be frosting, not the cupcake. I have seen people go off the deep end about this dogs OFA or penn hip score, *great hips on a train wreck is still a train wreck*. Then they search out other dogs of the same breed with good hips scores, breed them and push the hip issue at the expence of the rest of the dog, the breed and the future owners.
You want a dog that can do its job 1st and foremost, and has good hips.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

There is a correlation between nutrition and correct bone. Raw meaty BONES is the best way to feed a breed with any type of skeletal problem. Vitamin C has been shown to have something to do with hip D. If you are feeding a commercial dog food, you need to supplement with C. Bones have everything your dog needs for bone development. What I'm saying is, the breeder has the responsibility to only breed "the best", the puppy buyer has the responsibility to only feed the best.


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

Sorry, Motdaugrnds, it seems we've hi-jacked your thread. Honestly, I think you're all right. I majored in animal biology and pre-vet, eventually got a degree in farm management, and worked as a vet tech. I've also trained service dogs, and a pp was right in that there is nothing as heart breaking as a dog that has spent 2 years in the intensive training program, only to develop displaysia and/or arthritis as a 4-5 year old. My own "pet" dog, a retired service animal bred by the professional schools, developed arthritis in his shoulder by age 5. It was sad, but it is certainly a risk in dogs that are very active. Like every other issue, it can also be exaggerated by the diet. 

Sadly, he was fed a strict diet of kibble for almost his entire life. We tried to start weaning him to a more natural diet at age 9, and his stomach absolutely could not tolerate anything raw, and only limited amounts of cooked items. It has taken a year and half to get him to a point where he can now eat raw meat and bone, though he still has trouble with the rich organ meats. In the mean time, I have switched him to an all-natural kibble (ridiculously expensive), but it has helped. His tumors stopped growing, his golden color returned to his gray face, and the black color to his nose. His energy level in general improved. After what we saw with him, we are dead set on a raw diet as much as possible for our LGDs. They get a mixed diet of dairy, eggs, meats, bones, offal and organs, some limited breads, grains, and veggies, and when we run out, they get the all-natural kibble. 

That being said, a pp is also right in that hybrid vigor between two large dogs does not eliminate the chance. The problem is, as I have personally witnessed, neither does x-rays. Time after time, I have seen the professionally bred dogs at service dog programs go through the x-ray programs, and while the breeder himself may pass with flying colors, I have seen their siblings develop it. This means the dog is a still a carrier, and when they go on to be breeders, they continue to pass on the trait. Ideally, breeding stock would come from only litters where NONE of the dogs developed the disease. For each generation, you increase the chance of eliminating diseases from that line. Sadly, life doesn't work like that. Furthermore, if you study the certification program, it isn't a guarantee that the dog will NEVER develop displaysia, nor that their pups will never develop it. It is essentially a rating of how high/low (poor, fair, good hips) the chances are based on the "ideal". The whole idea behind hybrid vigor is to cross otherwise unrelated genetics, which naturally (usually) increases the hardiness of the animal overall. The need for this is clear if you ever get to experience a "bottleneck" breed of animal, where every animal is essentially related, and thus you can't outcross without leaving the breed entirely. That is why I still debate on the hip x-ray issue, and am putting a bit more emphasis on my dogs' genetic lines in general. To clarify, as a potential breeder with a medical background, I absolutely think both would be a bonus. On the other hand, as a "natural as possible" farmer, focused on quality stock that has all the visible physical and temperamental traits I need on the farm, the more practical side of me questions the wisdom in the expense of the certification program when it really offers little more than a slightly increased sense of security. 

I once heard someone suggest that, with our current state of affairs, no animal should be bred before it is about 5-8 years old. That way, you have a chance to see how it's siblings, parents, and extended "family" turn out genetically. Those with faults in their lineage, including less resistance to diseases and shorter life spans, would never be bred, while the hardiest would survive to a ripe old age and the lines be well proven before breeding. As we all know, that will never happen. Shoot, if you think about it, folks can't even agree on the most important traits to pass on--we have GP show dogs bred strictly for looks, and others who feel it isn't a true GP unless it is a dirty, matted, LGD living full time with livestock. Even vets can't agree! I know of one vet who believes after the second round of vaccines, all animals should be titer-tested before more vaccines are given, while I know several other vets who think titer-testing is a joke that can't be trusted. Some believe a 3-year rabies is sufficient, while others still promote the annual rabies vacs. I spoke with someone the other day who thinks her LGD is the perfect breeder because it "acts like a Golden Retriever" and spends less than 50% of its time outside guarding, when I believe an LGD should be working all the time, and if she wants a Golden, she should buy a Golden. I have come to accept that those differences are what create the various attitudes and capabilities our dogs have (as well as the negatives, unfortunately). Thus, it is up to the buyer to really be educated as to EXACTLY what his/her needs are for a dog, and then find a breeder who is breeding for those traits. 

Sorry so long, I just figured it might be good food-for-thought. I hope that all makes sense.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Redgate, that is certainly welcomed information; and I cannot agree with you more.

As for as some posters taking an excursion a bit to the left/right of my initial post, all is good when we learn from each other. My post was mostly a presentation of my frustration! 

I do believe there are "some" quality breeders in the USA who actually care about their dogs and the people who buy their dogs. It is those I like to encourage and support. It is difficult, however, to actually understand who they are as there are a lot of subtle comments made that present an erroneous front; and people like me who are mostly ignorant about breeding dogs can easily fall prey to such jargon.

I believe I've found 3 ethical breeders, maybe more. Two raise Langals and one Anatolians. Either of those breeds would fit the needs of my little 6-acre homestead. So I'm focusing on those at the moment. As stated above, I'm in no hurry. I want a female puppy that "thinks" for itself and can actually do the job of protecting myself and my animals even when not commanded immediately to do so; and I want to purchase this puppy from a reputable breeder, not a puppy mill.

By the way, thought I'ld share a couple of pics of my homestead where this pup would be living. If I've learned anythng at all in these forums it is that we all love pictures. The first pic was taken while standing at my front gate looking onto the front of my place; while the 2nd picture is when I'm standing at the gate in middle of property, looking over the back acreage and then encircling the area (cut/paste) from there past garden area up toward where I was standing to take the first pic.


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

motdaugrnds,

Not sure if you'd be interested, but I just saw on the Goat forum under the top, "for Sale" ads, last page, "Ozark Jewels" in MO is offering 2 LGD pups for sale for $50. I think it said females. Just figured I'd let you know.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I don't really want to post in the section anymore but I did read about your worries with the dog coats. 
I live in a semi-arid high elevation area and I have Anatolian/Pyr mixes. One is more Anatolian so he has shorter hair and the other has the Pyr hair, it is super hot here, little shade, feels like you are in a microwave some days. Anatolians would be fine on the East Coast. As long as you have good shade and lots of water. 

I would go with an Anatolian over a Pyr due to barking and wandering. I would get one now since you only have 6 acres and train it well. Then if you continue to have predator problems get a second later on. 

Do not leave them intact, their mind is not on their job if they are trying to impregnate every stray dog in the area, any neighbor who has not bothered to alter their dogs. Or get pregnant, and a litter of mutt puppies would not be a good thing. Your female would have to be locked up to avoid being bred too young or avoid mutt puppies and then she is not doing her job.
My boys still mark the property with pee and I do not have testorone issues. They had their hips checked when they were neutered. 

Take a roap trip to Emily, get a puppy and a few goats, I would lol. I love her goats and my SUV would be packed with them


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Redgate, I did contact "Ozark Jewels", discovering her pups were Komondo (mispelled) with very, very long hair. Those dogs would suffer from heat here.

Thaiblue, I do like the Anatolians and I've pretty much concluded that getting the puppy (female) spayed as soon as vet says it would be ok would be a good thing. Thanks for sharing your experience as to how the weather affects your Anatolian and Pyre. By the way, is that a "great pyre" or a "pyre mastiff" you have in the mix?


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

No Mastiff, they are half Anatolian and half Great Pyrenees. 
We had a heat wave last year, temps for weeks in the 90's-105 we are a mile closer to the Sun and it makes a difference. I am from the East Coast and prefer humidity  my boys did fine during that time and one does have the longer Pyr coat. I do not shave my dogs, their coats offer protection from the harsh Sun and they can cool themselves, they have also taken a dip in the irrigation canal a few times. 

I saw older pictures of Emily's pups, are they long haired now?


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Don't know about her pups. Just googled and saw those long coats.


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

I wouldn't worry too much about the coats. Most breeds will acclimate to your area. I might not take a full GP to equator latitude, I know of lots of folks who have had full GPs in hot humid environments. There a number of Pyr/Anatolian mixes in Texas that do just fine. Also, those puppy coats can be deceiving. My girls looked similar as pups, but one (Iris) grew up to be more GP like in her coat, while the other is a totally different coat. You probably saw in Athena's photo that her coat is long, but in the summer it is quite thin. I actually have no concerns about her handling the heat after we move. If you are very concerned, then on the hottest days, just offer them a wading pool. They will likely use it if they get too hot.


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

I wouldn't worry about the coats. We have a pyr and she does fine in the summers. She digs massive crators in the dirt to lay down in under the shade trees. Our mutt seems to suffer more than she does. Blessings, Kat


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Actually the very best way to protect hips in the giant LGD breeds is to not alter them early. Genetics does play a role, but even a dog with good genetics can be ruined (hip-wise) by altering too early. Hormones help growth in ways not related simply to reproduction. It's important for a dog to be able to have those hormones long enough to develop good muscle tone, and not have bone overgrowth.

We have one LGD right now that has some hip issues, and I know it was my fault. I had her altered at 6mo because I just didn't want to deal with a litter of 12 puppies in the near future. And she has hip issues that her sisters nor bother ever had. And I know it was my fault. I should have just taken the chance on a litter, and found them homes, but I was lazy. Now my poor dog has to take supplements and some NSAIDs when it is really cold or wet or if she over exerts herself. My only advice to anyone is to not alter early if you want to help your giant breed dog have good hips. That is more important than genetics.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Mekasmom, I did come to that conclusion from what I've read about hip issues...and I've done more research than I ever thought was possible...I mean hours of it. 

I will be having my dog(s) spayed; however, I will be waiting until they are older than that 6 months to do so. Thanks for reminding me of how we, ourselves, can cause our dog's problems if we are not cautious.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

motdaugrnds said:


> I will be having my dog(s) spayed; however, I will be waiting until they are older than that 6 months to do so. Thanks for reminding me of how we, ourselves, can cause our dog's problems if we are not cautious.


It is tough because you come to a point in life that you just don't want to deal with 12+ puppies. Nor do you want to deal with a 120lb dog that wants to run or a male that is sniffing around looking to mate with her. Altering does make life so much easier, but in the giant breeds there are repercussions from lack of those important hormones until growth is finished.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

motdaugrnds said:


> Mekasmom, I did come to that conclusion from what I've read about hip issues...and I've done more research than I ever thought was possible...I mean hours of it.
> 
> I will be having my dog(s) spayed; however, I will be waiting until they are older than that 6 months to do so. Thanks for reminding me of how we, ourselves, can cause our dog's problems if we are not cautious.


The dogs are going to be with you for a long time, doing the reserch is important. 
I Think I looked at 3,500 litters over 2 years before I found my dog button, it is an investment for sure.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Yes, Mekasmom, it is very tough and I am certainly at that time in my life. 

Rock, what I'm trying to avoid is the puppy mills as well as the breeders who don't seem to care what they are doing to the special LGD breeds. Some breeders are doing a GREAT job mixing the breeds for strengthening certain characteristics; others are just mixing breeds, which I feel is a real injustice (not only an injustice to the dogs but an injustice to those of us who value the natural tendancies of LGD). I want to make sure my purchase is from a breeder who wants to help enhance these dogs and not contribute any who are just messing them up!

I know what I'm wanting; so eventually will find it. I wanted to do so this year; but if I cannot, then maybe next year.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

One thing I'm concerned about is the size of your property. We have six and half acres and that is pretty small. Just make sure that the dog you get is going to be suitable. I don't know enough about kangals and such as to their space expectations.


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

The space thing is one of the characteristics I absolutely LOVE about our breed. Around here, the Colorado Mtn. Dog breed is known as the "ultimate homestead LGD" because they have proven so adaptable. Although perfectly capable of patrolling larger areas (just ask the larger ranchers that breed them), they have also proven perfectly content in smaller goat pens. I personally wouldn't want to keep them cooped up in a small pen for long periods of time, though I would apply that any animal, not just an LGD. However, in our current situation, the dogs and goats are turned into a one acre field every 2 days, run off their energy, and seem perfectly happy in their smaller pen the rest of the time. After we get moved, the dogs will have about 6 acres of freedom to patrol, and I am very excited for them. Eventually, we hope to make it closer to 20 acres or so, but we aren't sure how or when that's going to work out. In any case, the few times my older girl has gone on a larger patrol of the neighboring areas, she's never gone long. She doesn't like leaving her herd unattended for too long a period. I am always more concerned about her being stolen than her not returning of her own will. She just loves her goats too much! 

Sorry, I do get on my soap box. Can you tell I'm in love with my girls? ;-)


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Yes, I can tell you love your girls! ROFL

Since my 6-acre homestead is totally fenced and all have free range of it, I am not that concerned about an LGD not having enough space, though I will certainly keep this in mind when choosing the puppy.


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