# LGD killing lambs!!!!



## Old Mission (Dec 26, 2009)

One or both of our Maremma's have started killing our lambs and eating them. The dogs are around 18 months old, were born on a farm/raised with sheep, goats, chickens their whole life. We have no idea why they started doing this and what our next step is. (first we found dead chickens, one a night but we had no idea it was the dogs and brushed it off as a predator loss) Our flock is small so this cannot continue or we will have nothing left! The dogs know better not to behave like this when we are around, and are doing it at night, so far. The lambs range from 4-6 weeks old, so they are not newborns (they did fine with the newborns) This is the dogs 2nd time going through lambing and they have grown up around lambs their entire lives. I think its one who is doing the actual killing, but once the lamb is dead the other joins in to play with the carcass and eat it but I am not sure since we have not caught them in the act. Its definitely them killing them tho, they are killing 1 a night and are covered in blood in the morning. We definitely want to rehome the one we think is most guilty, and wait to see if the other is guilty too. But I have no idea how to rehome a dog that cannot be a pet or a farm dog now.

Help!!!


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## stormywood (Jul 10, 2009)

OMG, how awful. I can offer no advice, just hugs~~~~~ My heart feels for you!


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Sorry, but you have to get rid of the dogs. 

Stock killing is contagious, so both your dogs are now not to be trusted. 

Don't bother with "guard" llamas. They don't work.


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## VA Shepherd (Dec 26, 2010)

That's awful, sorry to hear it! I gotta say, though, I wouldn't even try to rehome them.  At this point, not only wouldn't I trust them around livestock, but other dogs, certainly cats, and even children. If you just can't bring yourself to have them put down, I'd contact a Maremma rescue organization, they'll probably take them off your hands if there's anything to be done for them. But they are a liability in more ways than one, and if I were you, I couldn't get them off my property fast enough. Good luck.


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## crispin (Jun 30, 2010)

We had a Great Perenese, for the last 2 years I suspected it of killing a few of my animals but never had proof. I did however very much feel that is was the dog guilty of killing quite a few of my animals. A couple of weeks ago my DSO went out to check on a litter of 6 hour old puppies and found the Perenese killing and eating the newborn puppies. After hearing the screaming I ran out and saw the Perenese running off with a puppy in its mouth.
Well the next morning I walked up to her while she (the Pernese) was sleeping and shot her in the back of the head. Some dogs are just bad and need to be dealt with, I wish I had taken care of the dog a year ago.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

VA Shepherd said:


> That's awful, sorry to hear it! I gotta say, though, I wouldn't even try to rehome them.  At this point, not only wouldn't I trust them around livestock, but other dogs, certainly cats, and even children. If you just can't bring yourself to have them put down, I'd contact a Maremma rescue organization, they'll probably take them off your hands if there's anything to be done for them. But they are a liability in more ways than one, and if I were you, I couldn't get them off my property fast enough. Good luck.


I concur.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

crispin said:


> We had a Great Perenese, for the last 2 years I suspected it of killing a few of my animals but never had proof. I did however very much feel that is was the dog guilty of killing quite a few of my animals. A couple of weeks ago my DSO went out to check on a litter of 6 hour old puppies and found the Perenese killing and eating the newborn puppies. After hearing the screaming I ran out and saw the Perenese running off with a puppy in its mouth.
> Well the next morning I walked up to her while she (the Pernese) was sleeping and shot her in the back of the head. Some dogs are just bad and need to be dealt with, I wish I had taken care of the dog a year ago.


Oh my word! I've heard of them biting sheep, but not killing puppies. This sounds like a horror movie!


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## sde219 (May 19, 2010)

Sorry to hear about the dogs. I'm sure it will be difficult but I would be inclined to put them down also. You may find a rescue willing to take them and I would not necessarily consider them unsafe with most children but any adopting org needs to know about the stock-killing activity. Canid predation behavior is not always applicable to all "potential prey" - some dogs zero in on exceptionally furry, fluffy creatures and as such might not represent a risk for most children but you should try to make any adoption as transparent as possible.



oregon woodsmok said:


> Don't bother with "guard" llamas. They don't work.


I hate unresearched, at best anecdotal, blanket statements because "they don't work" either.

Llamas are often an effective guardian and I've seen them work remarkably well for shepherds with appropriate management techniques. Predation losses for those shepherds were eliminated in many cases. They have a number of benefits if your risk of predation is from smaller predatory animals. 

That said guardian dogs have more flexible benefits and might be appropriate depending on your situation and ability to train. Either way, here's a few links if you are looking for a new guardian and want to go with a llama.

http://www.extension.iastate.edu/publications/pm1527.pdf - nicely researched and documented work on guard llamas

http://home.nas.com/jnkllamas/Article Sheepguards.pdf - nice summary from the llama breeder/owner side of things


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## sde219 (May 19, 2010)

I should have added - I think you need to address both as problems now. This type of behavior is easily learned and not easily forgotten.

Were they born on your farm? Can you give them a temperament test?

I would definitely do a temperament test before trying to rehome - most reputable rescues will and you'd be wasting your and their time without having done so.


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## Old Mission (Dec 26, 2009)

They were not born here, but they were born at a farm raised with sheep, lambs, goats, horses, poultry, other dogs and children. Very well socialized and friendly. Breeders could not have done a better job with them. We got them at like 5 months old and continued with that. We have poultry, goats, sheep/lambs, children and spend time with the dogs every day when we care for the livestock and they have never given us any attitude or problems and are fine when we bring strangers in, just hang back and observe quietly. They are very friendly to people and the children but they are protective over their food with the livestock (but not people) and this may be what is causing the issue, lambs may be hanging out where the dogs eat but we have no where separate to feed the dogs, all one big open pasture and barn. The dogs wont let them anywhere near where they eat even when there is not food out.
I tried to click on the Maremma rescue page and it just says error on the page and nothing shows up. Cant find any contact info for that. I dont think I could bring myself to put them down since they are so friendly and good dogs otherwise, this is a really hard situation that I was never anticipating. 

Stephanie


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

Just a thought, but did u see them acually killing the lambs? Are they protective over your flock or could they be allowing something else to get it and kill, coyote or something? Could they just be 'cleaning' up after the kill?

I know what I would do if my LGD killed a lamb.  Hate it, but there it is. An LGD needs to work but do not re-home a killer on another farm.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Saddly there are posts like your's here on HT peppered across the boards. Maybe we do need a LGD sub forum as suggested over on the pet forum.


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

Being food aggressive 'may' be part of the problem. Ours is not.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Sorry for your trouble with the dogs. Just wondering if you have had to correct them in the past for chasing sheep or lambs? Could they have been guarding their food to start with? 
I had two male pups at the same time a while back. They started chasing and harassing lambs. These weren't new lambs either. First I separated the dogs, then each one got a tire to drag around(I don't recommend this without supervision). I corrected them severely for any chasing at all. This is just my experience and it worked. Both dogs have gone on to be very good lgds , one I still have. My dog will eat a lamb if it's already dead, but will not kill one . If I had your dogs I would do the same, but put them up at night when they couldn't be watched, at least until the lambs got older. Another possibility might be installing some electric fence to section off a pen for the ewes with lambs. The dog will still be around to protect, but can't get to them, the fence might work as a remote correction. Never tried this though. Trying to retrain would be a risk you would take, and not all of use are willing and understandably so. There's no guarantee it will work, they could also have a stronger kill instinct in the bloodline. Do you have a large area? large flock? If they are in tighter confinement maybe they could be bored?


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## SherrieC (Aug 24, 2002)

I'm sorry for your troubles. I would in the future Only ever get One pup at a time. My first thought was the "newborn" lamb thing, I wouldn't trust rehoming either one of these. I know we have trouble with teen dogs wanting to chase, so they are Only allowed near adult does, until they are around 3 years old. Of course Goats act different then sheep, they tend to swing around and butt a dog.


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## Looking4ewes (Apr 30, 2006)

I don't know much about LGDs but I do know that there are many who could help out on this forum: http://edgefieldsheep.com/bb/index.php. I would post there before I would consider any drastic measures.


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## SherrieC (Aug 24, 2002)

You know on second thought, I forgot our oldest LGD killed at least four chickens as a teen. After getting a severe whopping with the carcass each time, and shaking the crap out of her, " not easy" letting her know this is MY Chicken!! She's been good as gold and going on 6 years old now. I would Separate these hoodlums and establish Ownership over the sheep. and contact a good LGD group, but definitely get them away from the lambs !


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## farmmaid (Jan 13, 2003)

I would confine them for a period of time to see if you lose anymore, making sure they are not just "cleaning-up" after another has killed.................


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## Old Mission (Dec 26, 2009)

They are confined right now, and have not had anymore losses since. When we had the losses they were in the barn at night with the sheep,(we have one big open room, plenty of space for all) so it could not have been anything else that killed them since the dogs were the only thing in there with them. Now I have no way to know if the lambs died on their own, but we really doubt it since they were bouncing around fine and healthy earlier in the day. I'll take all your advice and try to figure out whats best for this situation. The dogs have been really valuable for keeping coyotes away and warded off many coyote attacks, but they cant be killing the lambs either!


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I wouldn't consider being locked in the barn with the sheep enough room to confine all together, especially with two teen age lgds. They need to be left outside when the sheep are in. You might consider leaving one lgd with the sheep at a time while monitoring them. Watch their behaviors. If you just have a small operation consider re homing one of them if you can find somebody willing to take on the issues.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

This sadly, happens more than people think. Once the dogs start eating or killing and eating your life stock, it is time to put them down.
They are still predators, slightly tamed ones but still predators. Personally I would not want the liability of re homing them and having them harm or attack other peoples livestock, pets or a child. Seen this happen too, even been on the receiving end of it. Because a person down the road at the old farm, thought they could retrain the killing behavior. Didn't work.
My heart goes out to you, not a good thing to happen.


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

wendle said:


> I wouldn't consider being locked in the barn with the sheep enough room to confine all together, especially with two teen age lgds. They need to be left outside when the sheep are in. You might consider leaving one lgd with the sheep at a time while monitoring them. Watch their behaviors. If you just have a small operation consider re homing one of them if you can find somebody willing to take on the issues.


I agree. Our LGD is free to roam our property to keep predators away. He can go in with the sheep and lambs if he wishes, and will sometimes, but he also patrols the acerage and has the freedom to do so.

I'm afraid I agree with Bergere on this one. Please do not rehome your dogs to a working farm. Whatever you want to call it, the bare bones is that they are now livestock killers.


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## Looking4ewes (Apr 30, 2006)

Why would you require having the LGDs in with the sheep when the sheep are confined at night? This could just be a management issue without going to the extreme of killing your dogs. Did the dog/s kill the lambs or were they just playing with them? Or perhaps all were confined to too small a space and the lambs got crushed due to some sort of sheep excitement? I would urge you to seek advice from those with expertise with LGDs.


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## Curtis B (Aug 15, 2008)

Ross said:


> Saddly there are posts like your's here on HT peppered across the boards. Maybe we do need a LGD sub forum as suggested over on the pet forum.


I second this. Since I have just aquired my first LGD, I have tons of concerns. I do also wonder about why the sudden change.


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## bigfoot2you (Oct 3, 2007)

sde219 said:


> Sorry to hear about the dogs. I'm sure it will be difficult but I would be inclined to put them down also. You may find a rescue willing to take them and I would not necessarily consider them unsafe with most children but any adopting org needs to know about the stock-killing activity. Canid predation behavior is not always applicable to all "potential prey" - some dogs zero in on exceptionally furry, fluffy creatures and as such might not represent a risk for most children but you should try to make any adoption as transparent as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My female alpaca does a pretty good job keeping the pasture clear........


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

I have heard that you can tie a dead sheep carcass to a suspected killer dog's underside making the dog "straddle" the carcass. Tie it there to the point it can't drag it off. After a few days/weeks of dragging that horrible mess around, they're not interested in dead sheep anymore. 

I've not tried it with sheep and LGD's but I've done it with a chicken killer and it worked. I wasn't too fond of removing the chicken corpse though!


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Looking4ewes said:


> Why would you require having the LGDs in with the sheep when the sheep are confined at night? This could just be a management issue without going to the extreme of killing your dogs. Did the dog/s kill the lambs or were they just playing with them? Or perhaps all were confined to too small a space and the lambs got crushed due to some sort of sheep excitement? I would urge you to seek advice from those with expertise with LGDs.



Re read the original post. The dogs are killing and eating the lambs.
I may be wrong but it does sound like they are not confined with the sheep in a small space.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I may be wrong but it does sound like they are not *confined with the sheep *in a small space.





> When we had the losses they were *in the barn at night with the sheep*,(we have one big open room, plenty of space for all)





> first we found dead chickens, *one a night *


First, I would *stop *confining the dogs with the other animals *at night*.
They don't need protection inside the barn, and the dogs will be much happier outside doing their job.

It may seem like a "large room" to you, but to a "teenage" Maremma, anything less than a couple of acres is a small space

Secondly, I would come up with some way of *making* a feeding area for the dogs that the other animals can't get to.

It won't be that hard to partition off an area. It could be that in defending their food, one of the dogs drew blood, and it triggered their agression even more

LGD's are naturally *more active at night*, and* I think they are bored *and playing with the lambs more then trying to kill them

Third, I would buy a shock collar, and spend some time watching them from a distance, and give them a good shock anytime they AGRESSIVELY touch an animal.

You have a couple of huge *PUPPIES *that need to be taught not to play too rough


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I agree with BFF if the sheep are secure for the night, let the dogs out. Make sure they cannot get into the barn and let them do their job at night. They are going to start to destroy that room that they are in out of boredom. 

I know people say LGD work better in pairs but I think if they are the same age they get into more trouble together. I prefer one older who knows what is and is not allowed and can correct the younger one when it misbehaves.

As far as feeding, do it once the sheep are in for the night and the chickens are sleeping. My chickens would go up to my one LGD's food and would snap toward them but not touch them, a warning that might have turned into something more if the chickens did not stop. So I started feeding him as soon as the chickens went to bed at night. 

I am not for putting them down, they are young, and otherwise from the Op's post good dogs. So one can easily be re-homed to a place with large livestock, no livestock or a breed rescue. They have no issues with people or kids. I prefer to train, while not risking livestock, to just shooting a dog you have time and money invested in.


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## Old Mission (Dec 26, 2009)

The dogs are not locked in the barn at night with the sheep, they all go in there willingly on their own together every night till morning. They can come and go as they please but choose to bed down in there all night with these nasty windy winter nights here. Anyhow, I found a few homes with large livestock that are looking for a farm dog that I told the full history of the dogs that are interested in the dogs and have more time to work on training for the issue and dont have small livestock. I would much rather do this then put them down so at least they have a chance. Their breeder could not take them back either they are the first ones I contacted. I am going to let one go for now and keep one to see if the problem persists and if so rehome them both. The reasoning for this is one tries to put the other in check when it steps out of line so I want to see if this continues with that one alone before deciding because I do need some form of protection out there for the sheep since we have a coyote problem. These dogs have no aggression or dominance issues with humans and are around children daily and are very gentle and respectful of them and have never challenged us and never once growled or curled a lip at a human or even tested dominance and they happily let any stranger onto the property when they are with us so I have no issues with trusting them around people. 
I too think the cause of this behavior is probably getting 2 puppies at the same time, bonding with eachother instead of the livestock and no older experienced dog to show them the ropes and put them in line. Definitely wont get a pair of pups together ever again but I was told its best to get a pair so they dont get bored and have company so thats what I did.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

On our farm these dogs would be gone YESTERDAY!


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## minnikin1 (Feb 3, 2003)

This happened to us several years ago - a male maremma. No doubts, we caught him in the act. 
He was, up till then, the PERFECT LGD. We were shocked and had no idea what to do.
For a few days, I thought I would just keep him away from newborn lambs. But as the days went by, I could not relax. I found myself having to check in on the flock every few hours. Then one day I saw him mouthing an older lamb. I had no idea what he was doing, by the time I ran out there the incident was over. But i realized that he could never fulfill his purpose on the farm - which was to give me peace of mind about my sheep - again. 

We contacted a local rescue person who took him and evaluated him. ( I say "took him". What I really mean is that I drove many hours to take him to her - but I was attached to this dog and really wanted to give him every chance.) She found a cattle rancher who took the dog, and since cattle are far more protective of their young, he has worked out for them. 

Our other maremma, his daughter, has grown to be an absolutely wonderful dog. She is no longer an LGD, but she has adjusted into being a wonderful pet/farm dog. 
It took her over 2 years to settle down. 

My heart goes out to you. I know how bewildered this can make you feel. 

http://www.hutonthehill.org


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## Olivia67 (Mar 6, 2008)

I've been reading a lot about this behavior on two LGD yahoo lists that I'm on. The concensis with the groups is that once the behavior has gotten to the point where the dogs are killing and eating the livestock then it should be put down unless you are a very experienced person who knows how to deal with this. Changing a behavior like this is not easy and the dog may never be 100 % trustworthy ever again anyway. Talking to a rescue group is one option but the dog just may have it's wire's crossed too. And then there's the liability problem, if said dog does injure or even kill a child well....you've gotten your warning that there is a problem. If the dog(s) and the livestock were together then it is doubtful that a predator killed the lamb and the dogs were just cleaning up. Predators have to be really desperate to get them inside of a barn with two LGD's inside already. It's just too easy to be cornered in there. JMO though, I don't have any LG yet and I'm still in the deciding faze between a dog and a llama.


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