# Off-Grid Living - Power needs



## BCHomesteader (Jan 10, 2013)

Hi, I am new to this forum, and I posted this to the general questions and someone suggested I post it here as well. 

We recently purchased the land for our "homestead", 159 acres of bare land in the mountains of British Columbia. The plan when we purchased was to take 5 - 10 years to get everything set up and build and eventually (retirement) move out there on a full-time basis. However, after spending 3 1/2 weeks at the "homestead" over Christmas - there is no way that we can wait that long to make this happen, which means we are moving up our timeline, by a lot. The hope now is to clear our build site over the rest of the winter and build in the spring / summer and move out there permanently as of this summer.

Our biggest challenge is power, bringing in grid power to the property is not a reasonable option, it would most likely cost us in the neighborhood of $50,000+ to bring in grid power and that is definetely not in our non-existant budget.

Currently we have our 5th wheel trailer at the property, equipped with 3 12 volt batteries and 2 6 volt batteries being charged with a 30watt solar panel and a gas powered generator as needed. This works fine for what we have out there at this point - however to live out there we will need more fridge / freezer capabilities than what we currently have with the little RV fridge.

From what we are able to calculate (and we are not experts), to run one of our chest freezers, basic lights, small water pump and charging of some electronics / internet we are looking at about 1Kw / day, however, I would like to also be able to run some of my kitchen appliances, such as my mixmaster for making breads, etc as I will be making everything from scratch once we move out there. 

Solar is an option - to a degree, in the winter there is very limited sunlight due to the mountains we only get a couple hours of direct sunlight a day, assuming there are no clouds. 

Wind Power - in my opinion is not an option. We are in the mountains, and at "ground level" there is almost no wind detectable at any time, according to the weather network we have very minimal winds in the area at any given point, the highest I have seen to date is about 8MPH and from what I can tell that wouldn't be enough to do much.

Micro Hydro Power - maybe an option - although we have no idea where to start with that concept. From the maps we have seen of the property, we have a creek that feeds the 25 acre lake on the property, and most of the property has a lot of elevation grades - so we are thinking it may be possible to divert part of the creek - run it through a micro hydro setup and then let it go back into the creek so it continues to feed the lake. We have not yet found the creek yet however, we are not sure at this point if it is year round or not, and we are not sure exactly where it is as we have not been able to make it across the property yet. We are assuming however, that it must have a decent flow as there is a pretty decent creek that leaves the lake, that seems to be a year round creek (however that is not on our property, it is on the neighbors so using it is not an option).

We would prefer to use gas / propane generator as only a backup / emergency / extreme high demand option and not a regular use due to cost of fuel and the distance we have to travel to get fuel.

If there is a viable option for generating power from wood - that we have a lot of  

We are working on an extremely limited (non-existant) budget.

Any information / insights anyone can give us would be greatly appreciated. 

Thank you in advance!

Helen


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## Piney Woods (Jul 5, 2006)

Hi BCHomesteader. I'm a novice as well and looking forward to any answers you receive. Seems like you are fairly limited on your choices. Wondering since you're in BC if you could put in an ice house or spring house?


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## GregYohn (Jan 24, 2013)

Figure electrical production budget. 
Figure electrical needs per day. 

Solar panels can be used, but 30 watt solar panels just is far from your needs. 
Try 500 watts or more and use your mixer when running your generator or on a sunny day. 
Reducing your need is the easiest way to cover the gap in power. 

I learned my stuff from Home Power magazine, and so subscribe to it. 

On a smart phone now, and so just giving fast answers. You will need the generator to top off your battery bank too. 

Maybe hydro will work, but you need local assistance. There


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi,
I would look into the microhydro and see if its worth going after.

For the hydro, it depends a lot on both the flow and the vertical drop from where take it out of the creek to the generator.

A rough formula for power output is: power = (height)(flow)/10

So, if you have 20 ft of drop with 30 gpm, your generator might produce about (20)(30)/10 = 60 watts 
That's 60 watts 24/7 -- about 1.5 KWH a day. 
With your low demand, this might be fine.
Hydro is nice if you have the spot for it and you have good flow all year.
There are probably regulations on what you are allowed to do with hydro, so you would want to check on that.

DIY Hydro info here: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Hydro/hydro.htm
There are several companies that make good small hdro equipment.

You would have to consider how far away the hydro generator is from the house. If its a long ways, you will want to either generate higher voltage, or step the voltage up so the power can get to the house without a lot of loss.

Since your sun exposure is not so good in the winter, the hydro and solar might balance each other.

Between the mountain shading and cloudy winter weather, it sounds like its going to be hard to use solar PV in mid winter. You might want to size the solar PV for the three good seasons and in the depths of winter figure on using the generator more?

You can use PVWatts to get an idea how much PV is needed. Using Smithers, BC (not sure where that is, but its latitude 55 N, so way up there) -- A 1000 watt PV array would give you about 100 KWH per month in the summer, tapering off to 60 or so in spring and fall, and dropping to 30 to 50 in the winter, but that does not account for mountain shading.

Tried to paste it in below, not sure how well that will work.
The column below that starts with 45 gives the monthly average totals.
But, you need to run it for your location.
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/pvwatts/version1/


Station Identification
City: Smithers
Country/Province: BC 
Latitude: 54.82Â° N
Longitude: 127.18Â° W
Elevation: 523 m
Weather Data: CWEC
PV System Specifications
DC Rating: 1.00 kW
DC to AC Derate Factor: 0.770
AC Rating: 0.77 kW
Array Type: Fixed Tilt 
Array Tilt: 54.8Â°
Array Azimuth: 180.0Â°
Energy Specifications
Energy Cost: 0.0862 CanB/kWh
Results

Month
Solar Radiation
(kWh/m2/day)	AC
Energy
(kWh)	Energy
Value
(CanB)
1 1.85 45 3.88 
2 3.14 68 5.86 
3 4.04 96 8.28 
4 4.85 107 9.22 
5 5.01 112 9.65 
6 4.85 101 8.71 
7 4.83 102 8.79 
8 4.77 102 8.79 
9 4.01 85 7.33 
10 3.00 67 5.78 
11 1.88 43 3.71 
12 1.42 34 2.93 
Year 3.64 962 82.92 

About the Hourly Performance Data *	

Saving Text from a Browser







Gary


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Don't give up on wind power, elevation changes and deep ravines can create winds. We use microhydro and solar but keep it minimal. We enjoy mixing and kneading bread by hand but use a lot of drop biscuits and muffins, too. We don't freeze a lot, we dehydrate and use a smokehouse and springhouse. Small amounts over a years time instead of all at once. In season foods and a greenhouse, hoops on raised beds and good cellar storage keeps variety of diet extended....James


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## K.B. (Sep 7, 2012)

These submersible propeller type microhydro turbines may be interesting if you have access to a fast moving creek/stream.

http://www.absak.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/33_89_90/products_id/3

I'd love to eventually try one out, but I don't think it would ever fly with OR's water laws...


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## EvoQ (Dec 23, 2012)

Have you heard of Wood Gasification or Gasifier ? Wood is burned and the Gas coming off the burning wood gets feed into a Generator that produces your power needs. There are countless examples of this process all over the internet. Check out this video [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nTWf-Rn1Uo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nTWf-Rn1Uo[/ame]

I personally would go the Micro Hydro route as it can be a huge supplier for allot of Electric power. The system or Micro Hydro station is relatively simple and inexpensive, the pipe, the holding area that is your main issue. If you have the flow and elevation change a tiny Micro Hydro can supply all the power that you will need. Go here for more Micro Hydro info, this site will give you all the info you need. http://www.microhydropower-forum.com/


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

We are totally off grid in WA state. Hydro is best if creek runs year around and doesn't freeze over. If creek or intake freeze then solar and or generator sound likely untill everything thaws. We are solar and have more power than we can use - in summer. Enough in spring and fall and short on power in Dec & Jan when the days are short and/or cloudy - generator needs to run most days then. We have a large house and all the normal 120 volt stuff. Satellite dishes for tv and internet. Heat with wood. Propane for cooking, instant hot water and backup heat. It all works fine as long as you don't expect solar to do it all in the winter.


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## solidwoods (Dec 23, 2005)

For gasifier check out GEK. They have 10kw 20kw sets from free plans to the sheet metal parts to turn key packages.
jim


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

I am in the same boat as Gray Wolf we are offgrid -- solar works well except in the winter months and use propane for the stove, back up heater, and tankless water heater.

If I were you and starting this from scratch with a non-existent budget then I would definitely make it my goal to find that creek as soon as possible. Without knowing how it flows and other measurements you may be spending time or money on other solutions that won't pan out. You will need to come to terms with having a gas/propane generator to help out in the lean times with power or in emergencies. There really is no way around it (maybe if you can do a working wood gassifier, but I have no personal experience with that). 

You also need to think about how loads increase over time -- for example will you have a well... water pressure... etc? Our biggest loads are our well pump. Next up is the fridge. We are using more power than I ever planned on and will need to expand this summer.

Good luck with your search and PM me with any questions.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Following up, our setup is to run a generator to pump water from the well up the hill to a burried 1,000 gal water tank that gravity feeds the house. Then we don't need to use any power to get water for at least a week. Works great if tou have a hill.

It's tempting to go with a propane frig but they cost consideraby more than 120 volt 'normal' ones. But they don't use power. 

Also, give some thought to how the house will run itself if you want to leave for a few days. What needs to be powered when you are gone? And how will it heat itself in winter when you are gone. Aside from the panels, we have 16 batteries for storage. It works for us.


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

Gray Wolf, good point. We only have 2 100lb propane tanks and a 30k BTU propane heater for back up heat. With the 2 tanks filled we could go, I am guessing, 4 to 7 days or more without being present depending on the temperature outside. Power, on the other hand, is an issue. We only have 8 batteries in a 48V config and because of some unexpected loads we could only be gone 2 days or so. With our refrigerator and a tankless *external* water heater that draws quite a bit of power so it doesn't freeze our place uses quite of bit even at idle. The water heater was a bad call on my part that I am looking to change this summer.

Leaving temporarily in the winter is a lot different in an offgrid set up for sure.


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## Morrison (Jan 30, 2013)

I was talking with my father, who is an electrical engineer, as to what you would need to generate to cover "peak load" reliably for a single family house. He was saying about 15 kw for peak, although that was considering using a/c durring summer heat much further south than you are currently.

Also, if your concern is heating your house, and you have clear skies, but cold weather, passive solar heating might cheaply get you close, to which you can add other energy options to cover the gap. Is the whole site covered in shadow by the mountains? If not I'd situate the house for maximum sun exposure.

Solar cooking could help too, and those systems can be quite inexpensive. There are some very nice out of the box models for $200 or less, quite a few you can build yourself cheaply with bricks, paint, and mirrors.

I guess my thought has been to close the gap as much as possible with what's cheap(good insulation, passive solar heat, solar hot water, solar cooking) then when your energy needs are much less, look at what generates power or heat most economically for where you live.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

We have a 1,000 propane tank. Way overkill but it lets us 'bulk buy' during the summer when gas is cheaper. Works out cheaper than having to buy small amounts of gas in the winter. Quite a $hock to first fill it up but then it gets better.

We use propane for inside tankless water heater, both kitchen stoves, the small refrigerator, two fireplaces and three direct-vent heaters. But we heat with wood stoves unless we leave.


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## Listerguy (Dec 2, 2011)

Hi Helen
We live off grid and have been for 16 years, we use a slow speed diesel, liter an hour will burn alternative fuels such as veg oil, or waste oil, these are water cooled so you can also reclaim the heat they are very easy to maintain, as they are 1929 technology, 
We also have 1400 watts of Solar, 16 L16 type deep cycle batteries and a 4000 w inverter 
check out our website www.justliveoffgrid.com for more info on our set up


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

Your web site says you ship to the US but I thought the EPA banned the import of Lister type engines?


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## YoYoDog (Sep 3, 2007)

Nimrod said:


> Your web site says you ship to the US but I thought the EPA banned the import of Lister type engines?


That, and my impression was the castings were so bad that they
needed to be torn down and cleaned before they could be used
for any reasonable amount of time.

JMHO,
Dan


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## justin_time (Dec 2, 2012)

Nimrod said:


> Your web site says you ship to the US but I thought the EPA banned the import of Lister type engines?


I dont mean to butt in on a question asked to another, but I will just throw this out there as I have a little knowledge on the subject.
First, up until last year I had not heard of any problem with a American driving up to Canada to buy one of these engines and bring it back to the US as personal property. That has changed, my friend(american) who also has a home up here, and who's wife is Canadian was refused entry last year while bringing his listeroid home to the US (he picked it up at my place). It was a new unit, broken down in the back of his pickup.He had proper paperwork that should have aloud entry with this unit, he was quoted the epa act as the reason.
Now as with many things in life, where there is a wall, there is also a way around it. It is at his home in the US after some "effort $ " that I wont go into.
Now I suspect, have a idea how he is able to ship a unit to the US. I am not commenting further, other than to say I bet he can if you are a serious buyer and want one. If you want one just make sure the deal is full money back if not delivered.
As to the other poster regarding casting problems, yes and no. They are great fun engines usefull for many things. I would knock every one apart before I ran it no mater what the seller said. Some casting on some engines may need a little work with a die grinder, but minor. I would be far more concerned about sand in the things. Now with that said, if the price is right, buy one, once cleaned up they are great engines, I love runnng them low (400-500rpm). They are not perfect, and While I recommend them, for the money a changfa might be a better value, though I would knock one of those apart as well before running it. These are the type of engines that if there are problems you can make them right, and thats the beauty of these things.If you want perfect, buy a honda, if you want fun, useable, repairable, simple, economical, buy a listeroid. I can have the piston in my hand in 5 minutes with nothing more than a cresent wrench.

Now, listerguy, I understand you have Johns inventory of I think 22 hp engines. If you read this I would love one of those engines to try and fit in a chev S10. I could not afford John's price as with shipping(500) it just killed me, I am poor, Should you find it an interesting project I could afford 500.00 for the engine, but after fitting it in the S10 would be happy to give you exclusive rights to the performance data I log, the build info, and pictures for your exclusive use. if interested pm me, no one has done this that i know of! Think about it...I have the S10 i am ready to rock...I antisipate that I will need to fabricate some type of adaptor plate to fit the engine to the tranny, again I would give you the cnc program to plasma cut these in exchange for the price break.


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

http://www.homepower.com/ magazine is a great way to learn about RE and their online archives of all old issuses will give hundreds of hours of enjoyable reading..... OK well maybe not enjoyable but very informative
I am a long term subscriber

Also if anyone lives in the Midwest come to https://www.midwestrenew.org/energyfair and learn lots... and have a few beers:bow:


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## ani's ark (May 12, 2012)

Morrison said:


> I was talking with my father, who is an electrical engineer, as to what you would need to generate to cover "peak load" reliably for a single family house. He was saying about 15 kw for peak, although that was considering using a/c durring summer heat much further south than you are currently.


We had this conversation with my father in law, who is an electrical engineer too. We now live comfortably on 1kW, although on 5kW I'd live a life of luxury. 
When you go to his house you can see where he gets the 15kw figure - they are a 'normal' family with TVs going in several rooms, huge fridge, washer, dryer, heat pumps and air con, computers and every gadget known to man plugged in. So THAT's how they suckle vast amounts of power from the grid without thinking about it until the power bill comes. If you want to live like that, stay in the city. 
When you are off-grid you work with what you have, turn on appliances only when you need them, line dry your clothes, cook on your woodburner, eat fresh from the garden and we sure as heck never have the time to watch TV all day! 

(Father in law, although helpful and a lovely man, still doesnt quite 'get it' and thinks we are soft in the head)


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Well "soft-in-the-head" just make darn sure that your wonderful-electrical-engineer-father-in-law can not see you laughing at him when the grid goes down..........LOL


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