# What if we automate Everything ?



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

The time is fast approaching with the ability to automate almost every task is at hand ,truck driving ,farming ,mining floor washing , even fast food ,almost everything is on the verge of being automated. 
What happens then?
It seems like these items would naturally be the property of the wealthy and so of course their endeavors to would go to those wealthy owners 
So how will everyone else live?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> The time is fast approaching with the ability to automate almost every task is at hand ,truck driving ,farming ,mining floor washing , even fast food ,almost everything is on the verge of being automated.
> What happens then?
> It seems like these items would naturally be the property of the wealthy and so of course their endeavors to would go to those wealthy owners
> So how will everyone else live?


Installing and maintaining all of those machines.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

There is a movie about the automated machines taking over.........Now that we have just had two (New) Boeing 737 Plus 8 jets, that both had the machine over ride the pilots, and dive straight down at 457 MPH, impacting in a nice little pile. while both pilots were pulling as hard with all their strength on the yoke to stop the suicide dive.

There is a message in the movie "Terminator".


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

I saw that about the 737 crash. There was a software glitch, a "fix it" patch that was installed and it still crashed.
If the info was correct it had to do with autopilot taking over in a stall situation.
Even though it's counter to instincts, a good pilot knows the best way to correct a stall, is to dive down at high speed until the engines refire and you regain control.
The problem is, you have to have enough altitude at the beginning to pull it off. A few thousand feet after take off won't work and I wonder if they were climbing steep after take off and the computer took over for a problem that didn't exist, crashing the plane.

But to answer the OP........



AmericanStand said:


> The time is fast approaching with the ability to automate almost every task is at hand ,truck driving ,farming ,mining floor washing , even fast food ,almost everything is on the verge of being automated.
> 
> *What if we automate Everything ?*
> 
> ...


I used to give the answer YH gave, because I was in that field of programming, repairing and installing such equipment.
But the companies are run mostly by people who don't know or don't care so I have a different answer now.

Leave them to their own devices.
I'll stay "un"automated and live comfortably without that stuff, fixing everyday things and maybe some high tech gadgets too along the way.........waiting for when it all hits the fan.
Then watch their amazement while my vehicles still run, my pantry is still full and my household is not in a chaos meltdown.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Off grid is not, no matter how few devices you use, really off the grid and out of the eye of big brother.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Installing and maintaining all of those machines.


But what happens when they have machines that install and maintain the machines? And dont think white collar jobs are safe, the machines are invading there too. And what happens when AI machines start demanding rights?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

HermitJohn said:


> But what happens when they have machines that install and maintain the machines? And dont think white collar jobs are safe, the machines are invading there too. And what happens when AI machines start demanding rights?


YH doesn't understand much of anything when it comes to how most people make a living and it won't do any good to explain it either. He and others believe that companies actually get up in the morning thinking of ways to do you a favor, like "giving" you a job.

I can't really blame those ignorant of this technology, the PTB of this world have told them it's good and they haven't figured out the true motivation behind it - and they won't until it's too late.
There are so few that know the inside of this business and how they are scheming to eliminate every job and suck up every penny in the world that those who DO speak up, are considered raving lunatics, not to be believed...........once again, until it's too late.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

We adapt and improvise. We always did, always will.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> YH doesn't understand much of anything when it comes to how most people make a living and it won't do any good to explain it either. He and others believe that companies actually get up in the morning thinking of ways to do you a favor, like "giving" you a job.
> 
> I can't really blame those ignorant of this technology, the PTB of this world have told them it's good and they haven't figured out the true motivation behind it - and they won't until it's too late.
> There are so few that know the inside of this business and how they are scheming to eliminate every job and suck up every penny in the world that those who DO speak up, are considered raving lunatics, not to be believed...........once again, until it's too late.


There is much truth on that. It seems to be the nature of man. I don't know that our better nature will ever rule on this earth.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

In the start it ruled for about a week.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> So how will everyone else live?


They can all get jobs complaining on the internet.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Try finding a machine to come out on the road and change the blown out tire on your rig.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

TripleD said:


> Try finding a machine to come out on the road and change the blown out tire on your rig.


Illegals do that pretty cheap


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

HDRider said:


> Illegals do that pretty cheap


I'm talking about a big rig. Service truck, air compressor and a lot of tools...


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

TripleD said:


> I'm talking about a big rig. Service truck, air compressor and a lot of tools...


Who does Love's send out?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

TripleD said:


> Try finding a machine to come out on the road and change the blown out tire on your rig.


I don't think we are far from that. Very soon we'll have driverless cars in most places. Parking next to your car and jacking it up and changing a tire isn't too complex.

A friend programs robots in Detroit. 20 years ago, his trade show demonstration was a robot that picked up a John Deere tractor frame, picked up a bracket, evaluated the bracket to insure it was correctly shaped and had all the holes punched in the right locations, held it in the correct location, within .01", welded it to the frame, set it on the pallet.
At that time they were working on automated milkers. Now some dairies have robots that do this arduous task.

I remember seeing a factory that makes plastic water pipes. Huge bins of plastic pellets feed the machines, each piece is cut as the pipe moves, non stop. The pipes fall into a huge rack/bin. In another area, plastic fittings are made, tees, elbows, all different diameters. Totally automated. This huge factory, parts being made all over and no people, none. I'm sure they need someone for doing repairs and changing the dies, but that's about all.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

HDRider said:


> Illegals do that pretty cheap


Don't I wish


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

HDRider said:


> Who does Love's send out?


Not an illegal, may not be a pro but they sure know how to charge like one


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Japan has an automated warehouse of over 1 million square feet with 25 humans working in it, same thing in the states had over 500


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

coolrunnin said:


> Not an illegal, may not be a pro but they sure know how to charge like one


Illegals can't learn to professionally change a tire?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

haypoint said:


> I don't think we are far from that. Very soon we'll have driverless cars in most places. Parking next to your car and jacking it up and changing a tire isn't too complex.
> 
> A friend programs robots in Detroit. 20 years ago, his trade show demonstration was a robot that picked up a John Deere tractor frame, picked up a bracket, evaluated the bracket to insure it was correctly shaped and had all the holes punched in the right locations, held it in the correct location, within .01", welded it to the frame, set it on the pallet.


There's a huge difference in doing something in a factory setting and doing at task in the real world. In the factory they tightly control the variables.


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## itsb (Jan 13, 2013)

I


TripleD said:


> Try finding a machine to come out on the road and change the blown out tire on your rig.


 have an app for that


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## itsb (Jan 13, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's a huge difference in doing something in a factory setting and doing at task in the real world. In the factory they tightly control the variables.


how did the rover, do its job for years on mars?


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

A lot of futurists talk about this (there are a lot of TED talks and podcasts out there if you're interested). The consensus among them seems to be that we'll come up with industries/jobs that we can't even dream of now. The same thing happened during the industrial revolution, and now we have jobs like software engineers and CGI specialists. They also seem to lean toward humans taking over more creative jobs.

It's really interesting, and I'll admit, scary in some ways.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

itsb said:


> how did the rover, do its job for years on mars?


They spent billions of dollars on it to make it do relatively simple tasks.
It's not cost effective for things people can easily do here.
All the rover really did was move around and take pictures and data samples.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's a huge difference in doing something in a factory setting and doing at task in the real world. In the factory they tightly control the variables.


In the examples I gave, the robot was able to pick up a bracket from a bin, look at it to optically measure its orientation, shape. contour and all holes.
In a dairy, there are many variables in washing teats, visually inspecting and locating each teat.
In An Arbor, I can order a pizza and the pizza delivery vehicle drives through traffic, calls my home when it arrives and I tap out the password to open the door to my pizza. Lots of variables.
It is the mastering of variables that makeup most of the latest development.

Some cars have a steering wheel vibration if I change lanes without using the turn signal. They won't allow a lane change if there is a vehicle in my blind spot. Hands free parrellel parking involves some variables.

I have seen early development of automated waitresses, a lot of variability there, too.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

haypoint said:


> In the examples I gave, the robot was able to pick up a bracket from a bin, look at it to optically measure its orientation, shape. contour and all holes.


All still in the controlled factory conditions.
I've seen robot welders operate too.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> A lot of futurists talk about this (there are a lot of TED talks and podcasts out there if you're interested). The consensus among them seems to be that we'll come up with industries/jobs that we can't even dream of now. The same thing happened during the industrial revolution, and now we have jobs like software engineers and CGI specialists. They also seem to lean toward humans taking over more creative jobs.
> 
> It's really interesting, and I'll admit, scary in some ways.


I think most of us get scared, anxious and thrilled all at the same time to think about the unknowns in the future. Think about it, we have always come through it. I think we will always punch through it,,, until we don't.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

The end result of automating everything will be that the government will have to introduce a basic income. You get paid for not working because there is no work. What a horrible way to run a country because people need to work and people enjoy work. If all the jobs that people have done in the past to make a living disappear into automation what will there be for people to actually do to earn an income.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

emdeengee said:


> If all the jobs that people have done in the past to make a living disappear into automation what will there be for people to actually do to earn an income.


What do all the buggy whip makers do now?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

emdeengee said:


> The end result of automating everything will be that the government will have to introduce a basic income. You get paid for not working because there is no work. What a horrible way to run a country because people need to work and people enjoy work. If all the jobs that people have done in the past to make a living disappear into automation what will there be for people to actually do to earn an income.


Maybe. Rulers in times past were good at keeping people busy building a great wall or rocks stacked as pyramids, or a war. The future is often a variant of history


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> They can all get jobs complaining on the internet.


Cheaper than a bot?


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What do all the buggy whip makers do now?


They moved production to China.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

itsb said:


> I
> 
> have an app for that


Another rental self driving car will handle that and a self driving tow truck will come get the disabled self driving car. You wont own a car, you will buy rides from the professional robot cars.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Of course the huge population increase around the world (2 billion in 1945 and 7.7 billion today) will have a lot to do with the way we deal with automation and financial changes. It is not only about keeping people busy - you have to pay them either in grain or cash. War of course is a huge financial boost to any economy which is why we will never get rid of it.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What do all the buggy whip makers do now?


Most have moved on to other ways of earning a living but they were not being cut out of jobs due to machines at the same rate as today. A few are still in business making buggy whips. And probably a few have gone on to making whips for sex shops and S&M clubs.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HermitJohn said:


> Cheaper than a bot?


Not everything is based on "cheaper".


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

emdeengee said:


> Most have moved on to other ways of earning a living but they were not *being cut out of jobs* due to machines at the same rate as today.


Unemployment in the US is at historic lows.
They are finding things to do despite more automation.
I don't think that will drastically change in the near future.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

They moved on to other low skilled jobs. 
Of course some died because they didn’t have enough skill at the new job. To make a living. 
AND
That was at a time when there were lots of low skill jobs 
NOT
At a time there was a massive reduction in the need for employees.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

not factory setting


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

emdeengee said:


> The end result of automating everything will be that the government will have to introduce a basic income. You get paid for not working because there is no work. What a horrible way to run a country because people need to work and people enjoy work. If all the jobs that people have done in the past to make a living disappear into automation what will there be for people to actually do to earn an income.


 

Exactly.....

When your country is built on consumerism, a failed system to start with, in the end it leaves "Most" with nothing but cheap plastic garbage and wasted lives.

I will say it again, until we get over money, nothing will change, this country as others are destined to repeat the cycles recorded in history.


Rise…...fall...….it never ends any other way.


Think about the premis of this conversation.....we need to keep all the humans working......sounds a little odd to me. Should that really be the goal ? How about build a better place, build a better future...…...keep the drones working is very sad for a community goal.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

It is seemingly moving towards a point where there will be fewer jobs than people, on the science fiction of Star Trek they had somehow moved past the need for money and allowed people to do as they wished, Gene Roddenberry did not explain how they did that though. The other futuristic Sci-fi saga of Star Wars continued with the premise of "money" and it seemed that there were lots of entrepreneurs to be found in that story...

I do not think that it will be an easy thing for humans to evolve into a system where there is no monetary rewards for whatever activity they seek to involve themselves into, it would take centuries... It seems to me that there would be many wandering around blathering about anything.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

So let's say robots take over everything. No one is working anymore. People get a national paycheck. 

Where does the money come from? Are the robots paying taxes now to cover our paycheck?


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

HDRider said:


> Illegals can't learn to professionally change a tire?


Reading comprehension issues?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

coolrunnin said:


> Reading comprehension issues?


I do have an issue understanding the point you failed to make.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

mreynolds said:


> So let's say robots take over everything. No one is working anymore. People get a national paycheck.
> 
> Where does the money come from? Are the robots paying taxes now to cover our paycheck?



The answer is in the question....where does the money come from now. 

Something to temper your answer with is we have 100,000,000 more people than 1950 and we have plenty of money for that population number.....the money in circulation in 1950 would not have been enough now if there was a 0 increase in population.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

shawnlee said:


> The answer is in the question....where does the money come from now.
> 
> Something to temper your answer with is we have 100,000,000 more people than 1950 and we have plenty of money for that population number.....the money in circulation in 1950 would not have been enough now if there was a 0 increase in population.


I guess I do have a reading comprehension problem.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Shine said:


> It is seemingly moving towards a point where there will be fewer jobs than people, on the science fiction of Star Trek they had somehow moved past the need for money and allowed people to do as they wished, Gene Roddenberry did not explain how they did that though. The other futuristic Sci-fi saga of Star Wars continued with the premise of "money" and it seemed that there were lots of entrepreneurs to be found in that story...
> 
> I do not think that it will be an easy thing for humans to evolve into a system where there is no monetary rewards for whatever activity they seek to involve themselves into, it would take centuries... It seems to me that there would be many wandering around blathering about anything.



But are you really working for money now...…...many call pay day, exchange day...…….because most work for food water and shelter and transportation. The magic happens in the creation and exchange ……….


Most would have a problem working for food water shelter and transportation at face value,...….yet they do it now with the idea of money to ease that reality.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

When my parents were in Algeria they had to be driven to where my Dad was working. There was a lot of road construction going on and they got stuck every day while blasted rock was being removed. My Dad asked the driver why the construction crews were not using the massive equipment that was parked at the construction site but instead hundreds of workers were using picks, shovels and baskets to move the rock and earth instead. The driver simply replied - these people have to eat and feed their families and this is work for them. The equipment was given to or bought by our government and they never thought about how one bulldozer would take the jobs of hundreds of people until the people let them know.

Over the past century new technologies have changed the way we work and the types of jobs available. So far there have been different jobs to replace many of the old ones but not all and not forever. There will be jobs for some but only some.

The robots won't be paying taxes. The manufactures, banks, vehicles etc will be the earners from the robot labour and they will pay taxes - lots of taxes. The basic income money that people will get will be used to purchase what is needed to survive but this money will be tax money and come from taxes paid. Very probably there will be a lot of sales and service taxes for which people will pay with their tax money income. A nice little circle of automated socialism.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

emdeengee said:


> When my parents were in Algeria they had to be driven to where my Dad was working. There was a lot of road construction going on and they got stuck every day while blasted rock was being removed. My Dad asked the driver why the construction crews were not using the massive equipment that was parked at the construction site but instead hundreds of workers were using picks, shovels and baskets to move the rock and earth instead. The driver simply replied - these people have to eat and feed their families and this is work for them. The equipment was given to or bought by our government and they never thought about how one bulldozer would take the jobs of hundreds of people until the people let them know.
> 
> Over the past century new technologies have changed the way we work and the types of jobs available. So far there have been different jobs to replace many of the old ones but not all and not forever. There will be jobs for some but only some.
> 
> The robots won't be paying taxes. The manufactures, banks, vehicles etc will be the earners from the robot labour and they will pay taxes - lots of taxes. The basic income money that people will get will used to purchase what is needed to survive but this money will be tax money and come from taxes paid. Very probably there will be a lot of sales and service taxes for which people will pay with their tax money income. A nice little circle of automated socialism.



That's probably close to how it would pan out...….


Just a modified version of consumerism...…….the cycle is modified, but the chain remains unbroken.


I quit using money as a reason a long time ago and no matter what you do, people give you money as long as you do something.....so I do what I like and just so you do not run out they keep giving it to me week after week.


From mowing grass as a kid to owning a business, all the time doing what I pleased, they just keep giving you money.....as long as you do something.


Which is fine if you lone wolf it for yourself...…...but for any team to win, it needs to be a team effort. A team of lone wolf winners is not a team and will not win, they all need to work together.

At this point society is so fragmented and factionized there is no team...…….so there will be no team win, only lone wolfs like zuckerbird , bill gates etc...…...sure the spin off of them winning is we get some cool trinkets and bobbles to pass the time, but that's not a team win.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

shawnlee said:


> *Which is fine if you lone wolf it for yourself...…...but for any team to win, it needs to be a team effort. A team of lone wolf winners is not a team and will not win, they all need to work together.
> 
> At this point society is so fragmented and factionized there is no team...…….so there will be no team win, only lone wolfs like zuckerbird , bill gates etc...…...sure the spin off of them winning is we get some cool trinkets and bobbles to pass the time, but that's not a team win.*


Very insightful....


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What do all the buggy whip makers do now?


Play harps and tend fires, they're mostly dead. Lol


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

HDRider said:


> I do have an issue understanding the point you failed to make.


What's hard about Loves doesn't hire illegals or professionals?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

shawnlee said:


> Think about the premis of this conversation.....we need to keep all the humans working......sounds a little odd to me. Should that really be the goal ? How about build a better place, build a better future...…...keep the drones working is very sad for a community goal.


NO
THAT WAS NOT THE PREMISE OF THIS THREAD !


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

coolrunnin said:


> What's hard about Loves doesn't hire illegals or professionals?


I would have to ask how you knew that, and you can replace "Love's" with any roadside service you want. Plus, would the person Love's sends out to change your tire not be a professional?


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

HDRider said:


> I would have to ask how you knew that, and you can replace "Love's" with any roadside service you want. Plus, would the person Love's sends out to change your tire not be a professional?


They were definitely amateur hour at least the couple times I've had to use them.

Some of the techs are definitely pro's, absolutely leaves you with your mouth standing open at how fast and efficient they work.

I just haven't experienced professionalism with any of the big chains.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

I think there will be nitch markets to be filled by humans for the foreseeable future, there's just some things robots just won't be able to do efficiently.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> What's hard about Loves doesn't hire illegals or professionals?


When did they stop ?


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> When did they stop ?


When you weren't looking. Lol


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

According to a female in the news, we will have time for making art and exploring outer space.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> According to a female in the news, we will have time for making art and exploring outer space.


I would like that.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

shawnlee said:


> But are you really working for money now...…...many call pay day, exchange day...…….because most work for food water and shelter and transportation. The magic happens in the creation and exchange ……….
> 
> 
> Most would have a problem working for food water shelter and transportation at face value,...….yet they do it now with the idea of money to ease that reality.


No disagreement there...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

coolrunnin said:


> They were definitely amateur hour at least the couple times I've had to use them.


"Professionals" get paid.
It doesn't mean they are good at what they do.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

coolrunnin said:


> I think there will be nitch markets to be filled by humans for the foreseeable future, there's just some things robots just won't be able to do efficiently.


Just like today there will always be jobs and people to work them. 
There will be people living in space. People living under ground, under mountains. How about water world ? 71% of the earth surface is covered with water. The people will live above and below the ocean. In 100-200 years a whole new world with a whole new people running it. Computers will control many things in a few years. Go to wal-mart and see how many kids have a computer in their hand. Computers age is here and will be for sometime. What happens after that age passes would be a big question. I could go on and write a book but not got that much time left


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I think what would happen is automation would devalue labor to a point of being almost worthless. 
People needed to build the automation would be valuable but people owning the capital to create the automation would become almost unlimitedly wealthy.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> Where does the money come from?


You won't need money.
Everything will be free and everyone will have the same things.
Resistance is futile.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> The time is fast approaching with the ability to automate almost every task is at hand ,truck driving ,farming ,mining floor washing , even fast food ,almost everything is on the verge of being automated.
> What happens then?
> It seems like these items would naturally be the property of the wealthy and so of course their endeavors to would go to those wealthy owners
> So how will everyone else live?





AmericanStand said:


> NO
> THAT WAS NOT THE PREMISE OF THIS THREAD !



Then what`s the problem with automation then... if not for people not having jobs ??


Roboticphobia ……..



At one time only the wealthy had cars, now high school kids have them...…..my guess at some point we will all have the same automation technology.


We actually live like that now if strip it down to reality....we have robot horses to transport us that go into automated door stables with automated lighting in the hut, a long with wireless automated coffee pots etc etc etc etc, even vacuum robots, lawn mower robots, car washing robots/automation.


The real problem facing us is AI...……..that's where the huge moral struggles will be fought as far as automation, we are already there.


I am personally looking forward to sending my self driving car to the grocery store and having them load my order in it while watching a movie in my home theater...……

The future is already here, just not everyone is in it yet...…



















Every thing else needed on a personal basis we have illegals for...….


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

I am at odds here. I understand much of both economic systems. Seeing this evolution of man working smarter, man creating machines to do the work of man, I do not see this as anything that would seek to exclude mankind in the economic realm. Think of it, if a huge company becomes dependent upon robotics and AI and garners a big piece of the economic pie with almost a skeleton work force, that would be in line with true capitalism but it also breaks the mold.

Someone must be the consumer, without a consumer there is no product. Where in the above situation is the consumer located? A person without a job cannot be a consumer, where does the consumer come from in this paradigm? Sure, there will be a need for a support team, that need will not have a "re-employment" solution for those classed out of a job, some people will not be able to achieve the required certification regime necessary to evolve. Some areas will see employment plummet. What will these people do?

I am not, in any way, shape or form a socialist but something has to give. There will either be a huge reduction in working people or someone will find a way out of this "work for pay" regime. A man or woman working a piece of ground to provide for themselves and their family will have no need for a job past the barter system. How many people will survive a purely barter system?


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> I think what would happen is automation would devalue labor to a point of being almost worthless.
> People needed to build the automation would be valuable but people owning the capital to create the automation would become almost unlimitedly wealthy.


 So like I said...people not having jobs.


.....and OMG some one is making money all in one post.....


If you do not like people becoming wealthy stop buying their stuff...……

Let me check my list....

Ordered from Amazon....nope.
Smart phone, ...nope.
Any apple products....nope.


I do have some local made things and some local farm produce in the fridge,,,,some seeds from heritageharvested seeds.com.....all people I have no problem with and they can get rich as they want, I do not care.


For the other clowns that give money a bad name, I will pay 10 times the going price to keep them from making a penny. Apparently most do not care given their wealth status, they talk to siri out of one side of the mouth and badmouth the company out of the other,....there is a word to describe those type of actions.


If the best argument against automation/robots, is some one will get rich, then there is no argument against it, under our current system , that's the end goal...….and the inevitable outcome because it is made into the system of things.


The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, that's how a monetary capiltalistic system is designed to function/ works...…...which I have no problem with. It is easy to do and anyone can do it...…..I have illegal friends who have never went to school, they live in nice houses and drive new cars, which aint cheap here...some of the highest prices in the USA where I live.


If a third world person with minimal education can thrive here, then a natural born citizen has no excuse for failure.


Unless they are a failure and own up to it, then I also have no problem with that at all...…...it is a free country, if you want to live in squaller andfilth and be lazy, they are free to do so and as long as they understand their circumstances are self inflicted I might even hang out with them and have a beer...…..but as soon as they blame jeff bezos or illegals or the man, I am out and revert back to the label described in the above dictionary reference.



This all hinges on the premis every one should chase the wind and keep up with the joneses......I know plenty of people with no jobs, no cars, no houses, they are perfectly normal and happy, they look at the other side as sad and feel sorry for them. Working their lives away as the house they work for , for 30 years, molds and is eaten by bugs.


Maybe the problem is not better paying jobs, it is not indulging and satiating endless desires with overpriced trinkets and bobbles...…….....having had nothing myself and more than a person deserves, I can tell you the best things in life are free and cheap too, well anything that means anything anyway and leads to feeling satisfied and happy and healthy.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

shawnlee said:


> happy and healthy.


Somehow - the point that I was seeking to make.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Shine said:


> I am at odds here. I understand much of both economic systems. Seeing this evolution of man working smarter, man creating machines to do the work of man, I do not see this as anything that would seek to exclude mankind in the economic realm. Think of it, if a huge company becomes dependent upon robotics and AI and garners a big piece of the economic pie with almost a skeleton work force, that would be in line with true capitalism but it also breaks the mold.
> 
> Someone must be the consumer, without a consumer there is no product. Where in the above situation is the consumer located? A person without a job cannot be a consumer, where does the consumer come from in this paradigm? Sure, there will be a need for a support team, that need will not have a "re-employment" solution for those classed out of a job, some people will not be able to achieve the required certification regime necessary to evolve. Some areas will see employment plummet. What will these people do?
> 
> I am not, in any way, shape or form a socialist but something has to give. There will either be a huge reduction in working people or someone will find a way out of this "work for pay" regime. A man or woman working a piece of ground to provide for themselves and their family will have no need for a job past the barter system. How many people will survive a purely barter system?


 Exactly....and that's why "Good" companies/people" in power said the workers came first, they were paid well and even schooled in order to make them better workers and for them to be more useful resulting in earning more money. These were the good people/the rich...……..they knew the circle was not complete without a worker/consumer.


Now we have people who want to make every single half penny possible, they want to skeletonize the work force , and to heel where it all ends up...they simply care about themselves and what can it do to get more money and or power for myself.


The big player in all of this now is the government,....they want to intercede and make it fair ensuring their control, they will mandate/law/restrict things, collect tarriffs and be the go between on all matters, so it is natural they will coin themselves robin hood, taking from the greedy rich and distributing it to the unworthy.....metering it out in a way that pushes a agenda forward skewing public opinion and insuring power.

The war cries are already sounding...its unfair to make money, tax jeff bezos at 90 percent and give us all free things.


A giant sad confused world who does not have the time or want to cut thru the web of lies, deceit and crazy drama struggles playing out in the world.


Advertising drives the world because the most important things we are good for is producing and consuming …..in the eyes of some. I feel we are meant and destined for much more than just worker bees. 

We are completely lacking in education, no, not common core math or the garbage peddled in colleges now, a real fundamental education on things that matter, common sense, common decency and bettering ourselves caring about others....which was what schooling was supposed to be about. Until it became a daycare and pre training to get up each day and do something meaningless for 8 hours, plus the hot bed for pushing beliefs on impressionable minds, which I believe to be worse than war crimes we have punished.


I could go on for hours, not because I am right or highly educated, but because it is that bad and that much is wrong...….plus no amount of xplainin will work, people have to see it for themselves to understand....and from my perspective no one really cares….one side of the mouth says that they are, but the other does not support that in actions. Some do, many don`t.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Sigh, ShawnLee, I tire of making others rich. Many others herein have done well doing for themselves and I have tried to live in the old paradigm, namely giving of one's self to the betterment of the company that you worked for. I was too stupid to understand that the tide was changing, that a change was in the wind and I grinded on...

I am now adrift and without a paddle, I still have me and I know that a world shift is necessary but I find myself in the midst of a tempest in a teapot. Unemployment is at a long time low but no one wants a 60 year old computer tech. Hopefully 14 months in an aviation support school will solve my issues, we shall see.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Shine said:


> Sigh, ShawnLee, I tire of making others rich. Many others herein have done well doing for themselves and I have tried to live in the old paradigm, namely giving of one's self to the betterment of the company that you worked for. I was too stupid to understand that the tide was changing, that a change was in the wind and I grinded on...
> 
> I am now adrift and without a paddle, I still have me and I know that a world shift is necessary but I find myself in the midst of a tempest in a teapot. Unemployment is at a long time low but no one wants a 60 year old computer tech. Hopefully 14 months in an aviation support school will solve my issues, we shall see.


Sounds to me like you are a decent level headed person who knows things and has learned things no amount of money can buy.

Rest assured in the fact whoever was getting rich probably lives a very unhappy life, very few people with money I have ever encountered are not living a torn life inside and spend most of those riches chasing the knowledge you have learned....looking for some satisfaction and peace.

Granted they usually have few monetary concerns, but that is minimal in the grand scheme of things and meaningless when your last breath is taken. 


People generally chase being satisfied, fulfilled, happy and want to be healthy, even when unhealthy those people take it with grace and are still pleasant people for the most part. Far more meaningful than money ……..


Sadly in this world we need money or we are cast aside like garbage and treated unfair, judged and frowned upon,....not taking into consideration many of the great people in history were outcasts, on the fringe and in the case of the founding of this very country, traitors.....so I certainly would not look down on your situation.

I will leave this link to a search result, there is much to be seen there from A-Z, maybe some will be of interest to you...…

https://www.bing.com/search?q=a+hap...s=n&sk=&cvid=00cb948fe52c4dcb83248f9c4d44864f


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

My point was automation won’t be the great leveler that some think it will. 
I think it will concentrate wealth with those that already have it.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Most of they wealthy I have met are deeply driven but they are still happy and enjoy their wealth.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> Most of they wealthy I have met are deeply driven but they are still happy and enjoy their wealth.


Of course they do... If they made that wealth of and because of themselves then I have no argument, if they walked into that wealth then I have a high bar of expectations of them. If they are unable to carry on then I have no understood value for them.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> "Professionals" get paid.
> It doesn't mean they are good at what they do.


Apprentices get paid, that's the definition of learning. Your having a tough week being coreect. Lol.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

I'm tired of people slamming companies and calling them greedy. I gather the ignorant have forgotten that companies answer to their stockholders.
I'm not saying that I'm not appalled at CEO's and other top managers have over the top salaries....


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

On a little different angle - one area I believe will explode will be in the anthropomorphic view of robotics. Not necessarily self driving cars, but for those robots that have been built with a visual likeness to a human, a child, a dog, etc. Someone, somewhere will find a way to make a buck out of protecting the 'poor' dog-shaped robot, or clothing the humanoid looking robot. I see it already when others watch the demo videos for robots and see the testers kick the dog-like robot to demonstrate it's ability to recover stability - they're aghast saying 'poor robot doggy.' There will be a growth industry in soft-hearted people that see robots not as machines but as quasi-people, animals that require protection or clothing, etc.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Shine said:


> I am at odds here. I understand much of both economic systems. Seeing this evolution of man working smarter, man creating machines to do the work of man, I do not see this as anything that would seek to exclude mankind in the economic realm. Think of it, if a huge company becomes dependent upon robotics and AI and garners a big piece of the economic pie with almost a skeleton work force, that would be in line with true capitalism but it also breaks the mold.
> 
> Someone must be the consumer, without a consumer there is no product. Where in the above situation is the consumer located? A person without a job cannot be a consumer, where does the consumer come from in this paradigm? Sure, there will be a need for a support team, that need will not have a "re-employment" solution for those classed out of a job, some people will not be able to achieve the required certification regime necessary to evolve. Some areas will see employment plummet. What will these people do?
> 
> I am not, in any way, shape or form a socialist but something has to give. There will either be a huge reduction in working people or someone will find a way out of this "work for pay" regime. A man or woman working a piece of ground to provide for themselves and their family will have no need for a job past the barter system. How many people will survive a purely barter system?


Exactly. If the one that owns the robots does it for the money, and the population doesn't have any money, then why do it at all?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

mzgarden said:


> On a little different angle - one area I believe will explode will be in the anthropomorphic view of robotics. Not necessarily self driving cards, but for those robots that have been built with have a visual likeness to a human, a child, a dog, etc. Someone, somewhere will find a way to make a buck out of protecting the 'poor' dog-shaped robot, or clothing the humanoid looking robot. I see it already when others watch the demo videos for robots and see the testers kick the dog-like robot to demonstrate it's ability to recover stability - they're aghast saying 'poor robot doggy.' There will be a growth industry in soft-hearted people that see robots not as machines but as quasi-people, animals that require protection or clothing, etc.


PETR....

People for the ethical treatment of robots.


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

I can see it now. You step on the scales. It tells you that you need to lose a few pounds, locks the frig and shuts off the gas stove, triggers the kill switch on the car and orders carrots to eat.

If this does not help it will decide to give you a colonic to clean you out.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> Apprentices get paid, that's the definition of learning. Your having a tough week being coreect. Lol.


 A apprentice is of course a professional in training the key part there is they are professional .


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Wolf mom said:


> I'm tired of people slamming companies and calling them greedy. I gather the ignorant have forgotten that companies answer to their stockholders.
> I'm not saying that I'm not appalled at CEO's and other top managers have over the top salaries....


Since the only reason the company ever exist is to pre-plan for theft what could be more greedy than that?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mreynolds said:


> Exactly. If the one that owns the robots does it for the money, and the population doesn't have any money, then why do it at all?


To scrape the last dime out of the poor


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

coolrunnin said:


> *Apprentices* get paid, that's the definition of learning. Your having a tough week being *coreect*. Lol.


That's one opinion.
Don't confuse it with fact.

*"pro·fes·sion·al*
*/prəˈfeSH(ə)n(ə)l/*
adjective


1.relating to or connected with a profession:"young professional people"synonyms:white-collar, executive, nonmanualantonyms:manual
2.*engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation *rather than as a pastime"
You never said anything about "apprentices" until now.



> coolrunnin said: ↑
> They were definitely *amateur* hour at least the couple times I've had to use them.


*"am·a·teur*
*/ˈamədər/*
noun


1.a person who engages in a pursuit, especially a sport, on an *unpaid* rather than a professional basis."


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> A apprentice is of course a professional in training the key part there is they are professional .


Lol opinions vary I reckon


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's one opinion.
> Don't confuse it with fact.
> 
> *"pro·fes·sion·al*
> ...


For me a professional is competent in their chosen field.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

coolrunnin said:


> *For me* a professional is competent in their chosen field.


Your opinion doesn't change the actual meaning of the words.
You're just digging the hole deeper.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> PETR....
> 
> People for the ethical treatment of robots.


Having a sex slave robot would give a whole new meaning to "You turn me on".


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> To scrape the last dime out of the poor


And when there are no need for dimes what will they scrape for then?


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Your opinion doesn't change the actual meaning of the words.
> You're just digging the hole deeper.


Holes offer good protection, I'll just keep on, it's kinda fun


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

coolrunnin said:


> Holes offer good protection, *I'll just keep on*, it's kinda fun


Why would today be any different?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mreynolds said:


> And when there are no need for dimes what will they scrape for then?


Then of course they will try to get each other’s wealth


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> For me a professional is competent in their chosen field.


And an apprentice is competent. Didn’t the people that showed up to fix your tire fix your tire?
Exactly what was your complaint with their performance? Where the tires not fast enough after repaired?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I seldom complain about the work ethic of illegal aliens I just wish that they would keep it at home. 
Perhaps if all those hard-working aliens work just hard at their own homes they would create a place they wouldn’t wanna leave?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> I seldom complain about the work ethic of illegal aliens I just wish that they would keep it at home.
> Perhaps if all those hard-working aliens work just hard at their own homes they would create a place they wouldn’t wanna leave?


You should know better than that. They can't because of all the corruption. They don't even really have a middle class to speak of because they keep them down or they manage to go higher because of corruption. 

Kinda like where we seem to be heading these days.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Why would today be any different?


I like your patterns they make me smile


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> And an apprentice is competent. Didn’t the people that showed up to fix your tire fix your tire?
> Exactly what was your complaint with their performance? Where the tires not fast enough after repaired?


If I have to help they ain't competent


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Maybe they thought you needed the training ?


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

mzgarden said:


> On a little different angle - one area I believe will explode will be in the anthropomorphic view of robotics. Not necessarily self driving cars, but for those robots that have been built with a visual likeness to a human, a child, a dog, etc. Someone, somewhere will find a way to make a buck out of protecting the 'poor' dog-shaped robot, or clothing the humanoid looking robot. I see it already when others watch the demo videos for robots and see the testers kick the dog-like robot to demonstrate it's ability to recover stability - they're aghast saying 'poor robot doggy.' There will be a growth industry in soft-hearted people that see robots not as machines but as quasi-people, animals that require protection or clothing, etc.


I'm one of the ones that are aghast when I see them kicking the robots and knocking them over. Not because I feel badly for the robots, but because this is how it starts. This is how the robots decide that we're all jerks and must be exterminated.

Seriously, stop kicking the robots in case they hold grudges.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Maybe they thought you needed the training ?


Lol maybe, maybe so.

At least he learned a trick two


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I bet he had something you didn’t .....
Tools ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Why not make a offer on what you really want ?

You might find your desires match someone else’s. 

That’s my Mo for purchasing property. 
Except I try to make a offer before they put it up for sale.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I've mentioned this in the past. but I think it's worth repeating.

Automation should be taxed as a replacement for income taxes lost. As more and more people lose jobs to automation, the government needs to replace tax revenue. There is also going to be a need to provide financial support to more and more people.

Automation needs to be measured in human hours - the number of human worked hours it takes to equal 1 hour of automated labor - and then taxed accordingly.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Work will simply evolve... Humans will come up with new things to do. Perhaps people will own robots that they rent out. Imagine having a fleet of driverless Uber or Lyft cars. The idea is to embrace the change and be sure that you have the skills and education that the new modern era will need.

On a personal note... I'm not afraid of technology and I try to stay current. My husband retired a few years ago after a career spent programming industrial robots (specifically for welding). I have a fairly new degree in Aeronautical Science with an emphasis in drones/unmanned systems and have almost completed the matching Masters. There will always be work but many in the US are woefully unprepared to meet the challenges. Some of the countries that we tend to think of as being 3rd world nations are churning out a highly-skilled workforce that is a greater danger to US unemployment in light of the advancements in robotics and unmanned systems.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> I've mentioned this in the past. but I think it's worth repeating.
> 
> Automation should be taxed as a replacement for income taxes lost. As more and more people lose jobs to automation, the government needs to replace tax revenue. There is also going to be a need to provide financial support to more and more people.
> 
> Automation needs to be measured in human hours - the number of human worked hours it takes to equal 1 hour of automated labor - and then taxed accordingly.


VAT kind of does that


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

HDRider said:


> VAT kind of does that


But VAT wouldn't differentiate between a product created by automation and another by manual labor would it?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> But VAT wouldn't differentiate between a product created by automation and another by manual labor would it?


It would be applied regardless. 

Are you hoping to engineer the tax to encourage manual labor? If so, you just push it off shore.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

HDRider said:


> It would be applied regardless.
> 
> Are you hoping to engineer the tax to encourage manual labor? If so, you just push it off shore.


No, I'm anticipating that as automation and articial intelligence take over the market place, there will be fewer and fewer jobs. At some point, government is either going to have to pay people a stipend or make jobs for them. I see a tax on automation as a way to fund this.


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

Looks like automation is already holding a grudge, no need to ask for more:

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...ailure-that-could-cause-the-jet-to-nose-dive/


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## Amtown (Dec 29, 2020)

Well here’s the deal, machines are very similar to us humans in the regard that they can malfunction and then need to be fixed. So I really hope that one day we won’t get the bright idea of automating the machine repairing process, otherwise we’ll be well and truly ****ed. No matter how alluring automation may seem to some big wigs, we need to be careful and not cross the line where we won’t actually be needed anymore and just sit around taking up space. That’s why we gotta make sure that things like automationstop.com - Allen Bradley Repair stay relevant, otherwise we risk fading into obscurity.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> YH doesn't understand much of anything when it comes to how most people make a living and it won't do any good to explain it either. He and others believe that companies actually get up in the morning thinking of ways to do you a favor, like "giving" you a job.
> 
> I can't really blame those ignorant of this technology, the PTB of this world have told them it's good and they haven't figured out the true motivation behind it - and they won't until it's too late.
> There are so few that know the inside of this business and how they are scheming to eliminate every job and suck up every penny in the world that those who DO speak up, are considered raving lunatics, not to be believed...........once again, until it's too late.


YH is very aware of how most people make a living! He did it for years til he got sick of it and found a better way. I suffer no delusions the boss loses any sleep over my well being.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I like my power tools.... automation at its base level. They let me get lots more done with minimum effort.


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## colourfastt (Nov 11, 2006)

Since someone saw fit to bring this thread back from the dead.


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> The time is fast approaching with the ability to automate almost every task is at hand ,truck driving ,farming ,mining floor washing , even fast food ,almost everything is on the verge of being automated.
> What happens then?
> It seems like these items would naturally be the property of the wealthy and so of course their endeavors to would go to those wealthy owners
> So how will everyone else live?


Automate your home, your workplace, the economy. Then when the automation or the power fails you're a prisoner. Same goes for the workplace, the economy, etc... No thanks!

I'm a retired EE and I know enough about the failings of technology to know the last thing that should be done is to create such an over dependence upon it.


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