# Empethy & Comassion vs. Your Survival....???



## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

I wish there was a good solution to this issue. As a country, how many can we feed. And when the SHTF, where do you stop being Empathetic and Compassionate, and say, "I need this food for me and mine".

https://www.adn.com/nation-world/20...oping-to-reach-u-s-before-trump-inauguration/


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

Sourdough said:


> I wish there was a good solution to this issue. As a country, how many can we feed. And when the SHTF, where do you stop being Empathetic and Compassionate, and say, "I need this food for me and mine".
> 
> https://www.adn.com/nation-world/20...oping-to-reach-u-s-before-trump-inauguration/


................When they come walking UP your road , so you know they had to climb over your perimeter fence to get to your home ! They , obviously , will survey your home and it's surroundings and may demand food......to see if you will share . IF , they are desperate they may come back after dark and use force . Better to escort them off your property with your AK and several 40 round clips in full view . , fordy


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Wow.. I don't know where you guys come up with this Hollywood fantasy stuff.. 

If the SHTF and society collapses, pretty much the last thing you'll need to worry about is a few rouge hungry people.. 

And even if it did happen, are you really going to tell a 3 to 5 year old little girl that you need your food for your own family and she'll just have to starve? Seriously? 

There are some really sick people in this world..


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Charity begins at home. Take care of your family and friends first.


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## AR Cattails (Dec 22, 2005)

My husband (now my ex) and I disagreed on this years ago when our children were young. He was for giving to any and everyone who showed up at our door. I felt he would be taking food away from the mouths of his children they would need to survive in those tumultuous times. But he was adamant in his way of thinking and I knew there would be no changing his mind. I felt he was placing his family under a death sentence if a catastrophic event lasting years were to happen. I'm thankful nothing has ever happened and I pray it doesn't. Now, it's just me and I don't really care too much about it anymore.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

Yes.......how much would you be willing to have your taxes raised to feed refugees coming to America......???? 15%.......32%.......47%.......???

It feels good but there is a price. It is NOT Hollywood fantasy stuff. These people need food, education, medical care. Are you willing to go on half rations, maybe skip breakfast an dinner, to feed them.

Would you commit suicide today, so there is food for them, would you be OK with giving your home to them, and you and your loved ones live in a cardboard box.......???

Yes, My heart goes out to them......the question is where do you draw the line........???? Would it be OK, if everyone you knew and loved gave up there job so they can have employment......??? 

It is very easy to be compassionate and loving, so long as the cost is just some fantasy add-on to the National Debt. But everything is finite in the world. We live in a total fantasy warped economic world today. There will be a price to be paid. I hope you pay gleefully when your bill is due.





Murby said:


> Wow.. I don't know where you guys come up with this Hollywood fantasy stuff..
> 
> If the SHTF and society collapses, pretty much the last thing you'll need to worry about is a few rouge hungry people..
> 
> ...


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Sourdough said:


> Yes.......how much would you be willing to have your taxes raised to feed refugees coming to America......???? 15%.......32%.......47%.......???
> 
> It feels good but there is a price. It is NOT Hollywood fantasy stuff. These people need food, education, medical care. Are you willing to go on half rations, maybe skip breakfast an dinner, to feed them.
> 
> ...



Did I miss something? What does refugees coming to America have to do with a "SHTF" situation where society collapses? 

But lets roll with that for a moment.. You want to tell someone that they have to starve because you need a new television or pair of Nike shoes? Really? 

No one is suggesting we tax everyone to death to feed the rest of the world.. but for crying out loud.. I could stand to miss a meal or two every now and then.. I think 70% (or more) of America could probably stand to miss a few meals here and there.. Probably lower our healthcare costs too.. Judging by the obesity epidemic, we certainly don't have a food shortage.. we have a lot of extra food to go around.. if you don't believe me, go talk to any cardiovascular doctor and he'll tell you.. 

So long as my family isn't unintentionally losing weight due to a food shortage, I'm going to choose to have compassion. 

You might also want to consider that some of those refugees might be doctors, engineers, etc.. Just because they're refugee's doesn't make them idiots... 

Wouldn't it be something if society did collapse one day and you turned away a refugee or refused to help someone who happened to also be a medical doctor.. then a week later you needed that doctor.. Talk about irony.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Murby said:


> Did I miss something? What does refugees coming to America have to do with a "SHTF" situation where society collapses?
> .


They are refugees because they had a shtf moment and instead of staying they fled. Maybe there are doctors in the mobs fleeing but don't the areas they are leaving need docs and engineers to rebuild after their war more then we need them?


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

I just figure that if your eighteen trillion dollars in debt, you should be paying down your debt, before incurring more debt to feed, educate and house a hundred thousand (PLUS) refugees. (A year)

America is Bankrupt, and there will be a reckoning. And it will be painful.

I am all for compassion, but I seriously question exactly how much compassion we can afford.

For the record........I have not owned a TV in 18 years, I own no NIKE shoes, and NO dress shoes, just logging boots, and work clothes. I live on $672.00 a month, and I have for nine years. But this is a choice that I have made, to life responsibly, to live with-in my means, and not incur debt so as to live a higher quality life on credit.

I am all for compassion, but not if I have to borrow money to extend that compassion..........A lesson that America needs to learn.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

There's an old saying that the caregiver has to care for himself/herself first in order to be able to care for someone else or eventually, there will be no care giving.. If you as a caregiver allow yourself to become run down through lack of sleep, not eating properly, eventually you will be too weak to care for anyone else. So, yes, Sourdough, I do agree with you. That does not mean one has to be selfish, just maintain a balance.

There has been a shift in world thinking to now I am responsible for you. Like "it takes a village to care for a child". Like global thinking. _No more being responsible for yourself _ and your own family. Just run away (to another country) and let someone else care for you rather than fight for your self, your country and your way of life. We can extrapolate that to snowflakes here in the US that need to crawl into a safe place (created by someone else) rather than stand up and say I am offended. (But then that's for another thread).

I'm just so tired of this nonsense. 

OK rant over.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Why is it that America is SO hospitiable to people who chose to flee their land instead of standing up and fighting for it THEN expect ME to feed, clothe, and shelter those folks, when my men and women of the Armed Services are not given the same level of food, shelter, health care, etc. AND THEY ARE WILLING TO FIGHT FOR THEIR COUNTRY???

We need to shut the doors to OUR house, clean it up, shore it up, strengthen her foundations, her walls, her roof, and her occupants FIRST, then we can help others.

Charity starts at home.

I am a 51 year old woman who works 40+ hours a week to put a modest roof over my head, food in my mouth and clothes on my back, and I am sick up to my eyeballs watching 25 year old men and women sit around on the fat butts and draw SSI / Welfare / SNAP, etc. I AM SURE not in the mood to pay / care for lazy bums from other countries too.

I will care for myself, and my own ,and would like to be known as the 'scary lady down the lane' so no one messes with me.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Whatever is going on in you guys towns, where you're apparently under attack by aliens or something, stealing the food right out of your mouths....well, that is not going on here. So, you're welcome to come down here to escape the terrorism going on right outside your kitchen door. We ain't got much, but we'll find room for you, and we'll stretch the food so that you poor souls can eat. 

Someone here who's social security check is 10% more than my social security check..will you need some help getting here? I know it's a long ways. 

Anyway, you guys are welcome to come here to escape those hordes, have a place to stay and eat. Even the ones of you I disagree with. After all, when those poor pilgrims and puritans fled England in order to have religious freedom, somebody had to help them out, too. This country was founded on freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and some other principles I've forgotten all about in my haste to make it all about me. So, even if I don't like you, I think you've got a right to live. So, come on down. We'll make it work.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

City Bound said:


> They are refugees because they had a shtf moment and instead of staying they fled. Maybe there are doctors in the mobs fleeing but don't the areas they are leaving need docs and engineers to rebuild after their war more then we need them?


Would you stay under a brutal dictatorship? 

Or would you pick up some sticks and rocks and start throwing them at the guy with chemical weapons?


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Sourdough said:


> I just figure that if your eighteen trillion dollars in debt, you should be paying down your debt, before incurring more debt to feed, educate and house a hundred thousand (PLUS) refugees. (A year)
> 
> America is Bankrupt, and there will be a reckoning. And it will be painful.
> 
> ...


So your compassion has a price tag.. 

Exactly what number have you chosen for it?

17 trillion? 

16 trillion? 

500 bucks?


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Clem said:


> Whatever is going on in you guys towns, where you're apparently under attack by aliens or something, stealing the food right out of your mouths....well, that is not going on here. So, you're welcome to come down here to escape the terrorism going on right outside your kitchen door. We ain't got much, but we'll find room for you, and we'll stretch the food so that you poor souls can eat.
> 
> Someone here who's social security check is 10% more than my social security check..will you need some help getting here? I know it's a long ways.
> 
> Anyway, you guys are welcome to come here to escape those hordes, have a place to stay and eat. Even the ones of you I disagree with. After all, when those poor pilgrims and puritans fled England in order to have religious freedom, somebody had to help them out, too. This country was founded on freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and some other principles I've forgotten all about in my haste to make it all about me. So, even if I don't like you, I think you've got a right to live. So, come on down. We'll make it work.


I never even considered that angle! I love it!

Our entire country was founded by people fleeing Europe.. Then we had to ask the natives to help us survive the harsh winters.. 

So we're a country that was built upon the same actions some are now fighting against. 

That's disturbing.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Murby said:


> Would you stay under a brutal dictatorship?
> 
> Or would you pick up some sticks and rocks and start throwing them at the guy with chemical weapons?


They were willing to stay under the dictator, it wasn't till all those factions started fighting that they wanted to leave.
And remember we started the fighting.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

So very kind and noble of you, Clem. If I lived closer, I'd be there for Thanksgiving.

But then, ya know, since you are offering to pay my way, I think I'll join you. You are such a good guy, I know you wouldn't mind my bringing my two 100 pound dogs - They can eat the left overs. I'm sure there's room at your house. They are pretty protective of me and I like having them around. I promise I'll clean up any messes they make.

Oh, and since it takes me a long while to get there, how about I stay the night? Food doesn't seem to be a problem, since you have more than me. And how about if I bring my boyfriend? He's sorta scary looking because of all the tats and while being in prison, he was really able to buff up. But, even with his anger management issues, he's really a nice guy.

Maybe you have connections for him to be able to get a job? Something clean, as getting dirty is not his way. Oh, he also needs time to go to the gym daily, so whatever job is available can't interfere with gym time. You do have a membership he can use...

You are not a stupid guy, Clem, so you can see where this story is going.

My question to you, in light of the above posts (although you do need to re-read my post), is: 
Where does this enabling stop?? That's what those posts are about. A line was drawn, and plans made not to have it moved. 

Are you going to keep feeding and sheltering me and mine until you and your's are starving? 
Are you of the mindset that lives for today and tomorrow will take care of itself?


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

I'm offering a place to find refuge from those terrorists some of the members are dealing with, not a one day, stay for dinner thing. But, stay long as you need to. 

There's plenty of work to do around here. I work to live, and will expect my guests to do the same. I'm old and weaker than I used to be, but that's life. 

As to your suggestions about what I read, and so on. I'm offering refuge from the storm. I'm not offering someone the right to tell me what to read, what to think, or what to say. Think and read what you want to. Interpret words and reality as you want to. I'll do the same.

Either there are people moving in on you, taking food away from you, or there aren't. For those who are facing this menace, I'm open for you. I'll check around among people I know, I'm sure there's not going to be any shortage of kind hearted strangers. Who won't stay strangers after they let you into their homes!!
We'll not starve here, neither will you.

PS: As to the boyfriend problem you have? Your problem, not mine. He's not the only one ever been to prison, got tattoos, or looks scary. I consider people like that to be "people". If you'd just realize that, maybe you wouldn't have such a problem with him.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

A question that I have:

What exactly are these refugees expecting ???

I poop in an outhouse that I had to build myself, I haul my water from a near creek, on a backpack or sled, I log, carry, buck, split, stack the wood to heat and cook, I harvest most of my food. I live in a small one-room shack 11'X 23' cabin/shack that that I had to build, and is five years past needing paint & shingles. If I should need very much medical help, I will have to file medical bankruptcy. 

Is this the life they are coming to America in full expectation of living ??? I don't think so.

America has a lot of Americans who were born in America, and can only dream of living to quality of life gifted to refugees.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Clem said:


> He's not the only one ever *been to prison, got tattoos, or looks scary.* I consider people like that to be "people". If you'd just realize that, maybe you wouldn't have such a problem with him.



Tattoos don't speak "scary" to me.. They speak "stupid".. 

The problem is that some people are so stupid they can be scary..


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Thanks for the poop update! 

A question that I have:

Just exactly how many people in your community have been displaced by these "immigrants"?

Also, anyone over 65 is able to get medicare. As an extra, if you're over 65, and have a limited income, you're also eligible for medicaid. Your total copay will be around a dollar and a quarter. No reason for the bankruptcy. 

I'm surprised you didn't know that.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

So........ do I understand that with a 400,000.00 medical bill that I would only pay a total of $1.25

Funny thing is when I get some blood work done Medicare does not cover much of it, and I pay 100% of the bill from the lab for some of those tests, not all, as some are covered.





Clem said:


> Thanks for the poop update!
> 
> A question that I have:
> 
> ...


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

NONE........ they would much prefer to live where they came from than to live here in the Alaskan wilderness. And what is this *COMMUNITY* thing that you speak of ???




Clem said:


> A question that I have:
> 
> Just exactly how many people in your community have been displaced by these "immigrants"?


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Clem said:


> I'm offering a place to find refuge from those terrorists some of the members are dealing with, not a one day, stay for dinner thing. But, stay long as you need to.
> 
> There's plenty of work to do around here. I work to live, and will expect my guests to do the same. I'm old and weaker than I used to be, but that's life.
> 
> ...


OMG! That story was tongue in cheek. :nanner:. Maybe it needed more and progressively darker scenarios. So sorry you did not get it. Nor the point I, and others, were trying to make. If I weren't laughing so hard at your naive reply, I'd be crying.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

YES.......the price is what ever YOUR children and YOUR grandchildren can afford. They will pay the bill.........(I have no Children).



Murby said:


> So your compassion has a price tag..
> 
> Exactly what number have you chosen for it?
> 
> ...


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

If you want to use sarcasm, you maybe should understand what it is. Pointing out that your fears and prejudices are based on such criteria that you describe is merely reiterating your position. 


Community: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/community

Possibly, in your state, Sourdough, the rules about medicaid aren't the same as they are everywhere else. After all, it is a joint state and federal program. However, looking at your state's Medicaid eligibility page, it does seem the same as everywhere else. 

http://www.caregiverlist.com/Alaska/medicaid.aspx

So, what are you guys terrified that the government is going to allow an influx of people who are so fearful for their lives they'd walk hundreds of miles carrying their children in their arms, just for a chance of freedom? 

I remember when crazy news came in a paper at the checkout counter at the grocery store. I don't remember people running in fear that the batboy was going to move in next door and date their daughter. 










Say, isn't that a Rupert Murdoch publication?


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## sustainabilly (Jun 20, 2012)

"And, in the naked light I saw ten thousand people, maybe more. People talking without speaking; people hearing without listening; people writing songs that voices never share. And, no one dare disturb the sound of silence. "Fools," said I, "You do not know. Silence, like a cancer, grows. Hear my words that I might teach you. Take my arms that I might reach you." But, my words like silent raindrops fell, and echoed in the wells of silence."

But, I get it. No, I do. It's scary. It's scary to know there's crap going on out there, and you don't have the power to control it. Maybe that's why the current fad is to focus on the differences and polarize the world into an endless succession of dichotomies. How's that been workin' out for us so far? Not...too... good! Ever ask yourself why? Could it be because, to focus on the differences is only the part where you're stating the problem. And, when you try to make it the solution as well, it falls short of doing the job. 

How many people were happy to see the Berlin wall come down? Why? Because it symbolized an end to a wrong? An oppression? How many problems have you solved in your life by running away from them? Or, to put it another way, by building a wall around yourself? The problems won't just go POOF! and disappear because of a head in the sand solution; read as isolationism. They got time on their side. Plus, given time, they tend to only get worse. So basically, avoiding the issue is a pretty short sighted option. Sort of 'penny wise, pound foolish', you might say.

How many people have learned that recognizing what's the _same_ on both sides, is the first step towards working together to find solutions? Maybe we should be changing the patois to conversations about what we have in common and go on from there. And, maybe stop fussin' about what's wrong with this group... or that person. 'Cuz it gets old. And honestly, how much does it really achieve anyway, when your biggest audience is the choir?

Anyone who says, "I know all I need to know!", then closes their mind to everything else, ought to think real hard on what Mark Twain really meant when he said, "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read."


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Murby said:


> Would you stay under a brutal dictatorship?
> 
> Or would you pick up some sticks and rocks and start throwing them at the guy with chemical weapons?


I would die for my country if I had to. I certainly would not go to someone else's country and demand, yes demand, a free house and the right to break their laws and spit on their culture.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Murby said:


> I never even considered that angle! I love it!
> 
> Our entire country was founded by people fleeing Europe.. Then we had to ask the natives to help us survive the harsh winters..
> 
> ...


exactly, we came here as cold hungry refugees, we were helped by the naÃ¯ve natives, and then when we were warm and fed we slaughtered the natives to take their land, murder their children, and force our religion on them. 

We are a great example of how dangerous it is to take in refugees and to nurse a hungry tiger back to health. 

We took it one village at a time, the same way they do it with neighborhoods. 

If the natives could see this far in the future they would have let the pilgrims die that winter.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Sourdough said:


> A question that I have:
> 
> What exactly are these refugees expecting ???
> 
> ...


They are not expecting that. They are expecting free medical, free food, a free apartment, free school, and the right to superimpose their culture and laws on the existing society.

They see the nice life we have here and in Europe and think that they will come in and take it, but they never realize that once they take it and control it they will run it into the ground because the root of their problems are not that they live in the third world but that they create the third world by expressing their natural instincts.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

City Bound said:


> exactly, we came here as cold hungry refugees, we were helped by the naÃ¯ve natives, and then when we were warm and fed we slaughtered the natives to take their land, murder their children, and force our religion on them.
> 
> We are a great example of how dangerous it is to take in refugees and to nurse a hungry tiger back to health.
> 
> ...


You took it too far... started out good, but then you kind of went over the edge on that line of reasoning.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Murby said:


> You took it too far... started out good, but then you kind of went over the edge on that line of reasoning.


Not really. That is just history. 

If you were a native American and could look hundreds of years in the future and see what the foreigners from Europe would do to your culture, home and people would you let them survive the winter?


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

City Bound said:


> Not really. That is just history.
> 
> If you were a native American and could look hundreds of years in the future and see what the foreigners from Europe would do to your culture, home and people would you let them survive the winter?


It really wouldn't matter, the natives were doomed anyhow.. The invading culture was far more technologically advanced. 

The same is not true today, in fact, its the reverse.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Murby said:


> It really wouldn't matter, the natives were doomed anyhow.. The invading culture was far more technologically advanced.
> 
> The same is not true today, in fact, its the reverse.


Who knows if they were doomed or not, but if they did not nurse the scorpion back to health it would not have stung them.

Using your logic though, Rome fell to a less advanced people and the result was a very long dark age.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

_"but they never realize that once they take it and control it they will run it into the ground because the root of their problems are not that they live in the third world but that they create the third world by expressing their natural instincts".
_
This bears repeating again and again and again....

Post of the day award.


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## ijon1 (Feb 27, 2014)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Why is it that America is SO hospitiable to people who chose to flee their land instead of standing up and fighting for it THEN expect ME to feed, clothe, and shelter those folks, when my men and women of the Armed Services are not given the same level of food, shelter, health care, etc. AND THEY ARE WILLING TO FIGHT FOR THEIR COUNTRY???
> 
> We need to shut the doors to OUR house, clean it up, shore it up, strengthen her foundations, her walls, her roof, and her occupants FIRST, then we can help others.
> 
> ...


Amen sister.


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## sustainabilly (Jun 20, 2012)

City Bound said:


> exactly, we came here as cold hungry refugees, we were helped by the naÃ¯ve natives, and then when we were warm and fed we slaughtered the natives to take their land, murder their children, and force our religion on them.
> 
> We are a great example of how dangerous it is to take in refugees and to nurse a hungry tiger back to health.
> 
> ...


First quote: Here, you basically make the point that the white European people who settled North America were duplicitous, backstabbing, savages. The same white people who called Native Americans uncivilized and savage because white European culture, at the time, was more advanced. I wondered at this point whether you were an apologist. It was hard to tell for sure.



City Bound said:


> ......
> They see the nice life we have here and in Europe and think that they will come in and take it, but they never realize that once they take it and control it they will run it into the ground because the root of their problems are not that they live in the third world but that they create the third world by expressing their natural instincts.


Second quote (second paragraph): The point here seems to be that these modern day refugees can't help but to act in an uncivilized manner. Correct me if you must, but it seems to me you're trying to maintain that they are incapable of comporting themselves in a manner which lives up to the standards of more civilized American or European society. It's almost as though you're saying they're not equipped, mentally, _"expressing their natural instincts"_, you said.

So, are both white people and Middle Eastern people uncivilized savages? Do you simply believe all people are essentially uncivilized savages? Are you saying these modern refugees are uncivilized while Americans are? Or, are you saying we learned how to live in a civilized society over the past couple of centuries while they have not? 

Do you truly believe that descendants of the same culture which was responsible for introducing invention and innovation to the world in the areas of agriculture, the arts, economics, industry, literature, navigation, philosophy, sociology, and science and technology during their golden age, are incapable of integrating into a modern society? Ever hear of cryptanalysis and frequency analysis? Yep, those dang Ay-rabbs. But, I guess while all the rest of humanity progressed naturally into the twenty-first century, they simply did not. Stagnant. Uncivilized. Savage. Hmmm. 

Do you even _know_ about tech trends, modern business innovations, and city planning in those 'NotAmerica' areas of the world? I suppose pre-French revolutionary society, which was a contemporary of colonial America, was really just a bunch of uncivilized savages also, because they went through an incredibly bloody revolution after we did. Oh, and the same must be true for everyone involved in the much more recent Bosnian War, because everyone knows that if some factions get into a war and there are refugees, they must all be uncivilized and unfit for _proper_ American society. 

But, I guess the most important question is: Do you honestly even know _how_ to string two coherent thoughts together in a row? 

Besides lacking any semblance of internal consistency between quotes 1 & 2, you're trying to revive the long failed white supremacist theory that there are races which are simply genetically inferior. (Heck, for all I know you might even apply it to _all_ non-whites. It's hard tellin'. At this point, it's anybody's guess.) Just in case this is going too fast for you, that's your second post, second paragraph I'm referring to. A load of drivel, bye the bye, which is possibly the most bigoted, defamatory piece of white supremacist dogma I've ever seen posted in this cesspool of Americentric delusion. I hope you got the information that lead you to say that crap for free. 'Cuz if you paid for it, they sure 'nough saw you comin'.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

BRavo, you must be proud of yourself for that. You must feel righteous. 

I am not an apologist. My point was that human nature is human nature and European Refugees came to the new world and simply acted like themselves. By doing such they almost completely annihilated a race of people and many species of animals as they radically altered the landscape in their image. That is history. 

In todays world there is no need for refugees. We have advanced technology, medicine, and education that is, or can be, spread all over the world so people can live peacefully in their own countries like we and Europe, for the most part, do. In fact we offer our knowledge and help freely to the third world. Instead of taking that help, they reject it. The middle east is a hell hole because the people there have made it a hell hole. Refugees are running away from the nightmare they created while at the same time carrying the seed of that nightmare in their minds and hearts and sowing it wherever they go. 

If they were truly refugees trying to flee cruelty, injustice, and social decay then why when they went to Europe did they bring it with them? If they appalled such horrors then how could they commit them on innocent people and worst of all arrogantly assert that the nightmare they live is the superior way to live?


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

sustainabilly said:


> So, are both white people and Middle Eastern people uncivilized savages? Do you simply believe all people are essentially uncivilized savages? Are you saying these modern refugees are uncivilized while Americans are? Or, are you saying we learned how to live in a civilized society over the past couple of centuries while they have not?
> 
> *Yes, they have not. Can you claim they have? we have fought long and hard to advance ourselves not only technologically but also morally and ethically. We still struggle and strive to push forward technologically as well as morally and ethically.*
> 
> ...


oooooooooooooo


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

City Bound said:


> BRavo, you must be proud of yourself for that. You must feel righteous.
> 
> I am not an apologist. My point was that *human nature is human nature *and European Refugees came to the new world and simply acted like themselves. By doing such they almost completely annihilated a race of people and many species of animals as they radically altered the landscape in their image. *That is history. *
> 
> ...


Seems pretty straight forward to me!
Not sure how this topic swerved left and went into the ditch.......
But, when I click on this topic and 1/2 of the replies are hidden, that pretty much explains it.
I guess there's no where to have a discussion w/o being insulted and belittled by a few. Too bad.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Seems pretty straight forward to me!
> Not sure how this topic swerved left and went into the ditch.......
> But, when I click on this topic and 1/2 of the replies are hidden, that pretty much explains it.
> I guess there's no where to have a discussion *w/o being insulted and belittled* by a few. Too bad.


Like you're doing to all of them now?
Pot and Kettle.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Dark Rooms must be pretty slow for so many to crawl out and into forums they never post in; well unless it's to cause trouble.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Dark Rooms must be pretty slow for so many to crawl out and into forums they never post in; well unless it's to cause trouble.


I see no one in this thread who doesn't often post in S&EP and other forums. Not being privy to the dark rooms, I have no idea as to who you may be referring to. By the fact that no one who doesn't normally post here is posting here, it seems clear that you're only trying for some sort of shotgun insult.

I do understand that insulting other members is an infraction. When you say "so many to crawl out..." you are insulting those that you consider to have crawled out, along with all the rest of the regular dark room forum by insinuating that caliber of person is someone who must "crawl out" rather than be a member in good standing who is free to post wherever they want, without fear of being insulted. 

I know(based on observation only) many posters, including sometimes me, don't really care that they're perceived as petty and spiteful. And some even seem to revel in it. However, I sort of think that one of the reasons for the dark rooms was to remove that sort of meanness from public view.


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## Hitch (Oct 19, 2016)

We tend to keep our prepping on the down low with neighbors and others we're not close with. Our family and close friends all know we prep. If they came here to shelter and/or for food that would be fine since I know all of them would be able to contribute to our safety and wellbeing in other ways. In any long term crisis having a good group people will further your ability to survive.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

City Bound is right on the money with his comments about immigrant take-overs, except these immigrants use our laws to require people to accommodate their way of life. There are so many opportunities for immigrants that are not offered to citizens. 

Yesterday one of your needy refugees attacked several people at the Ohio State campus. Ask his victims how much compassion they have for his situation and people like him.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Let's see, just putting "murder" in the search bar on google news. In order: South Carolina cop takes stand in his murder trial. There is a video showing clearly that he murdered a black man, shooting him in the back as he ran away from a traffic stop. second story...Suspected South Carolina serial killer charged with 3 more murders. 3rd story.. 2 American soldiers charged with murdering another soldier. And so on.

All those were American murderers and their victims. And there's pages of them. It makes no difference about their race, ethnic background, religion, or politics. They are murderers, one and all. 

Which one of them would you pick out and say everyone with this particular trait should be sent away, locked up, harassed, or whatever. White? Cops? South Carolinians? Soldiers? Cousins? 

Nah, lets not worry about the real problem. Lets blame religion. OK, none of those murderers, nor any others in the first page of murder articles were Muslim. So, lets ban Muslims, because what? Some murders are Muslim? Looks to me like some murders are Baptists, too. 

Millions of Baptist, South Carolinians, cops, cousins, and so on didn't kill anybody. AND Millions of Muslims didn't either. And, apparently, none of the 38,901 Muslim refugees admitted to the US this year didn't either. Nor did any of the 37,521 Christian refugees admitted this year.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Let me first say that I agree with much of what you posted above.. 



Clem said:


> Let's see, just putting "murder" in the search bar on google news. In order: South Carolina cop takes stand in his murder trial. There is a video showing clearly that he murdered a black man, shooting him in the back as he ran away from a traffic stop. second story...Suspected South Carolina serial killer charged with 3 more murders. 3rd story.. 2 American soldiers charged with murdering another soldier. And so on.


And I agree with the point you're making here too..



> All those were American murderers and their victims. And there's pages of them. It makes no difference about their race, ethnic background, *religion*, or politics. They are murderers, one and all.


But not this.. Religion does seem to make a difference and cause some to become agressive.. It doesn't matter which religion.. it would seem that so long as someone is told something over and over from an early age that can not be rectified through reason or logic, it can cause problems later.



> Nah, lets not worry about the real problem. Lets blame religion. OK, none of those murderers, nor any others in the first page of murder articles were Muslim. So, lets ban Muslims, because what? Some murders are Muslim? Looks to me like some murders are Baptists, too.


If you ask a Christian about the Muslims, they'll tell you how violent they are.. Ask a Muslim about Christian and you'll get a similar story.. Its a great example of the pot calling the kettle black. 

Religion as a whole has a way of causing the exact opposite effect as what the religion claims to be about. 
Best metaphor I can conjure up: Its like putting too much fertilizer on a plant.. eventually the plant turns a different color and dies.



> Millions of Baptist, South Carolinians, cops, cousins, and so on didn't kill anybody. AND Millions of Muslims didn't either. And, apparently, none of the 38,901 Muslim refugees admitted to the US this year didn't either. Nor did any of the 37,521 Christian refugees admitted this year.


Yes.. this is true. But we must realize that religion is very much like drugs.. Some people can partake in them recreationally with no adverse affects while others get hooked and ruin their life after a single exposure. 

What is really interesting here is that those who oppose letting Syrian refugees into our country are trying to use logical arguments based on welfare support, crime, etc.. but the true reason is that they are Christians opposing the influx of another religion (Islam) into our country. 

Just another example of why Christianity can never be trusted in any way shape or form.
If these people were coming from Poland, they'd be welcome here with a red carpet.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

When I went to church in the 50's, it was all about the fear of going to hell. The God portrayed was someone to be afraid of. In the 70's some time, it changed to love. God was someone who loved you, and wanted you to love others. 

Last time I was in church was 1986, as my father was dying. It was all about love then, too. I don't think religion actually turned to hate, I think all that came about because of the anonymity offered by the internet. Joe can say anything hateful to anyone, and not suffer the consequence of everybody in the neighborhood knowing what a jerk Joe is.
It's easy for Joe to spout religion out one side of his mouth, and hate out the other. That don't mean he's actually religious. And, oddly enough, don't mean he's actually hateful, either. Mostly what I get is angry people who can't seem to understand their rage comes from within, not external stimuli.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Clem said:


> Let's see, just putting "murder" in the search bar on google news. In order: South Carolina cop takes stand in his murder trial. There is a video showing clearly that he murdered a black man, shooting him in the back as he ran away from a traffic stop. second story...Suspected South Carolina serial killer charged with 3 more murders. 3rd story.. 2 American soldiers charged with murdering another soldier. And so on.
> 
> All those were American murderers and their victims. And there's pages of them. It makes no difference about their race, ethnic background, religion, or politics. They are murderers, one and all.
> 
> ...


No, because in the Islamic faith murder, rape, and conquest are part of their doctrine. The most important difference between some loose canons that kill and rape people and Muslims that kill and rape people in the name of their faith is that their religion tells them they have the right to kill and rape people. The loose canon is deranged and violating the law of the land, he is not acting deranged and homicidal because the law tells him he has to be or that he has the right to do so if he chooses to.

Other then islam and Satanism , I can not think of any other religion in America that has the approval of rape and murder as part of its core beliefs.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Murby said:


> What is really interesting here is that those who oppose letting Syrian refugees into our country are trying to use logical arguments based on welfare support, crime, etc.. but the true reason is that they are Christians opposing the influx of another religion (Islam) into our country.
> 
> Just another example of why Christianity can never be trusted in any way shape or form.
> If these people were coming from Poland, they'd be welcome here with a red carpet.


Not really. Have you ever heard of americans or Christian americans getting bent out of shape over Buddhist coming to America? No, because Buddhist are a peaceful people who have respect for all life. We live with many different religions here and the most important thing is that even if we disagree or dislike each other we do not kill each other over it. Tolerating each other is part of the American experiment. 

On the other hand, a religion like islam that expresses itself all over the world with violence, intolerance, rape, and unwillingness to live in peace with it neighbors of different persuasions sets off a lot of red flags. Hey look, we took them in before and what did they give us in return 911, the boston marathon bombing, a nightclub massacre, a work place massacre, various lone wolf attacks like the one that just occurred yesterday. How is that tolerance on their part? We tried over and over to welcome them into our community of various religions and peoples and they repeatedly prove that can not and will not play by the rules of our country that allows such a vast amount of different people to live together in relative peace.

Polish people don't have a red carpet rolled out for them.
Every immigrant group is met with resistance for good and bad reasons.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Clem said:


> When I went to church in the 50's, it was all about the fear of going to hell. The God portrayed was someone to be afraid of.


I agree.. Fear of the almighty was a powerful technique for manipulation.. The flaw is that like any drug, one builds up a tolerance over time.. In the case of a god to be feared, it lost its potency as modern man grew up, became more intellectual, and adopted critical thinking skills. 



> In the 70's some time, it changed to love. God was someone who loved you, and wanted you to love others.


If you take a sales and marketing class in college, one of the first things you learn is that fear is a powerful sales tool.. But when fear is not a practical option, the next best marketing tool is sex.. The hippy days of the 60's and 70's were all about love and sex.. the church just jumped on the bandwagon in its own way.



> Last time I was in church was 1986, as my father was dying. It was all about love then, too. I don't think religion actually turned to hate, I think all that came about because of the anonymity offered by the internet. Joe can say anything hateful to anyone, and not suffer the consequence of everybody in the neighborhood knowing what a jerk Joe is.
> It's easy for Joe to spout religion out one side of his mouth, and hate out the other. That don't mean he's actually religious. And, oddly enough, don't mean he's actually hateful, either. Mostly what I get is angry people who can't seem to understand their rage comes from within, not external stimuli.


The problem with what you say is that religion has never been about love.. or hate.. its about power and control.. that's all its ever been about from day one. The marketing message might change over time to fit the public's perceptions and expectations, but the underlying reasons have never changed. 

And while the internet provides some anonymity on a personal scale and allows others to freely speak their minds without repercussions, I don't think that's a bad thing at all.. I think its a good thing because it exposes truth.. even if some don't like what they are hearing.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

I said this:


Murby said:


> If you ask a Christian about the Muslims, they'll tell you how violent they are.. Ask a Muslim about Christian and you'll get a similar story.. Its a great example of the pot calling the kettle black.


And then you said:


City Bound said:


> No, because in the Islamic faith murder, rape, and conquest are part of their doctrine. The most important difference between some loose canons that kill and rape people and Muslims that kill and rape people in the name of their faith is that their religion tells them they have the right to kill and rape people. The loose canon is deranged and violating the law of the land, he is not acting deranged and homicidal because the law tells him he has to be or that he has the right to do so if he chooses to.
> 
> Other then islam and Satanism , I can not think of any other religion in America that has the approval of rape and murder as part of its core beliefs.



You do realize you just made my point for me right?


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

You gotta be kidding, right, Citybound? Or else you've never read the bible. There's more murder and genocide commanded by God in the Bible than in every western ever made. Look at God's punishment of the Midianites. And they were actually friends with the Israelites!! 
Kill the men, boys, and married women. Keep the young girls for yourselves. God's own words! Here: .numbers 31:17-18
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves. 


If you rape a girl and get caught, you gotta pay her dad $50 and then you get to keep her. Not bad, huh? Find a pretty girl, rape her, make sure you get caught, and have the $50. She's yours from then on!!
Deuteronomy 2:28-29: If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days. 

I was raised in the church, I've actually read the Bible dozens, if not hundreds of times. If you imagine for a second that the Bible is not loaded with God telling people to kill everyone in their way, you've just never bothered reading one. The New Testament is a lot more humane in it's views of dealing with people. There's even some references as to how we should treat the less fortunate. Jesus' own words talking about people who do and don't deserve the kingdom of heaven. It is relevant today, still: Matthew 25:40 Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Whoah! What does that one mean?? How can it apply to the way we treat others?

That's what happens if you've actually read the Bible. You know what's in it.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

no *murby* I did not prove your point because Muslims can claim Christians are violent all they like but there is no large scale evidence of present day Christians acting violent as an expression of their faith and obedience to god. 

On the other hand, there is a great deal of present day evidence that muslims are engaging in psychotic degrees of violence as an expression of their faith and obedience to their god.

*Clem* you are referring to the old testament which is the basically the core of the jewish faith and law. Christians follow a new covenant and teachings through jesus. The laws of moses and the history of the old testament belong to the jews not the Christians. Can you find examples of such horrors and inhumane laws instigated by jesus in the new testament? No you cant. Jesus came to reform the jews and set them free, some took his gift but most did not. 

So at present, are modern day Christians acting on inhumane laws from the old testament? No, because those laws are not Christian. At present, are modern day muslims acting on inhumane laws of the old testament plus many others from the Koran? Yes, they are.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

If the Old Testament was not meant to be part of the Bible used by Christians, it would not be included.

Terrorists do not act on any part of any teachings. They're like the gangs in New York and places, they're just criminals who are organized. Decent people, or religious people don't join the Crips, Bloods, or Al Queda. They're just criminal gangsters.

ETA: If the Muslim religion called for adherents to be criminals, then why are the 1.6 billion practicing Muslims not all criminals?


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

City Bound said:


> no *murby* I did not prove your point because Muslims can claim Christians are violent all they like but there is* no large scale evidence of present day Christians acting violent* as an expression of their faith and obedience to god.


The scale of Christian violence today pretty much dwarfs all other historical examples. 
Christians are violent even among themselves.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Murby said:


> The scale of Christian violence today pretty much dwarfs all other historical examples.
> Christians are violent even among themselves.


Are you serious? What violent acts are Christians performing today?


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Clem said:


> If the Old Testament was not meant to be part of the Bible used by Christians, it would not be included.
> 
> Terrorists do not act on any part of any teachings. They're like the gangs in New York and places, they're just criminals who are organized. Decent people, or religious people don't join the Crips, Bloods, or Al Queda. They're just criminal gangsters.
> 
> ETA: If the Muslim religion called for adherents to be criminals, then why are the 1.6 billion practicing Muslims not all criminals?


Not really. The old testament is not as significant as the new testament for Christians. The new testament is the new covenant with god which makes almost all of the old testament obsolete and null. Christians are not the old testament, they are the new testament. The old testament is part of many bibles because it sets the context for the coming of the Christ. 

Jihad is not part of Islamic teachings? Sharia law is not the foundation of islam? Come on. The terrorists are simply the muslims that are practicing their faith the way it is recommended to be practiced. Mahammad was not a man of peace, not was the religion he created. Look it up.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

City Bound said:


> Are you serious? What violent acts are Christians performing today?


The fact that you ask that question would render any serious discussion on the subject useless. It means that you wouldn't even acknowledge Christian violence unless it involved a crucifix and a bible being used as weapons themselves.

Check out the Bush wars.. both of them.. Check our our prison population.. just read the news and look at the facebook pages of those committing all the violence.

I'm not blind.. are you?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Sourdough said:


> I wish there was a good solution to this issue. As a country, how many can we feed. And when the SHTF, where do you stop being Empathetic and Compassionate, and say, "I need this food for me and mine".
> 
> https://www.adn.com/nation-world/20...oping-to-reach-u-s-before-trump-inauguration/


How did we go from this to God bashing, Christian bashing?


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Apparently you've spent even less time studying the Koran than you have on the Bible.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Murby said:


> The fact that you ask that question would render any serious discussion on the subject useless. It means that you wouldn't even acknowledge Christian violence unless it involved a crucifix and a bible being used as weapons themselves.
> 
> Check out the Bush wars.. both of them.. Check our our prison population.. just read the news and look at the facebook pages of those committing all the violence.
> 
> I'm not blind.. are you?



I have no idea what you even mean. Christians are violently abusing incarcerated criminals? Bush's wars for the oil cartel were somehow Christian? You consider the face book postings of a few Christians who strongly oppose homosexuality and abortion to be on par with the global carnage of militant islam? So angry Christians saying bigoted words on the internet is the same as chopping people's heads, crucifying them, taking women into sexual slavery, and gang rape? 

I am not sure what you are really trying to say but it sounds like you re making a very abstract parallel. I don't think the reality of how both groups express their religious prejudices are even remotely at the same level of extreme.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

City Bound said:


> I have no idea what you even mean. Christians are violently abusing incarcerated criminals?


ROFLMAO.. The incarcerated criminals ARE Christians.



> Bush's wars for the oil cartel were somehow Christian?


How many predominantly Christian nations have we gone to war with?



> You consider the face book postings of a few Christians who strongly oppose homosexuality and abortion to be on par with the global carnage of militant islam? So angry Christians* saying bigoted words on the internet is the same as chopping people's heads, crucifying them, taking women into sexual slavery, and gang rape? *


Are you talking about Christians or Muslims now? I'm confused.. Seems they both do the same things.. just in different time periods and under different disguises. 



> I am not sure what you are really trying to say but it sounds like you re making a very abstract parallel. I don't think the reality of how both groups express their religious prejudices are even remotely at the same level of extreme.


Doesn't matter if its vanilla, strawberry or chocolate, its just different flavors of the same ingredients.. The religions are no different.. except maybe Shinto and a few others that aren't really typical religions.

Dropping bombs on someone's head in their own country is every bit as bad as beheading them and posting it on the internet... its just not as flamboyant.. unless of course you start televising it and giving it names like "Shock and Awe"..


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

So your house is open to all refugees, hungry folks, etc.
Great. Good for you.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> So your house is open to all refugees, hungry folks, etc.
> Great. Good for you.


Good for people.. we should all take care of each other.. that's called "civilization" and "society"... 

Its not always easy.. Being a rich and helping the poor is easy to do.. Being a normal person who counts their beans and still helps others.. not so easy.. but it speaks volume to the type of character one has.


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## reneedarley (Jun 11, 2014)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> How did we go from this to God bashing, Christian bashing?


Oh, the Christian bashing came just after the Muslim bashing.
There is only one God. Call him what you will.
The 100 refugees in our village are preparing to celebrate Christmas with us. After all, Jesus is their second greatest prophet.


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## reneedarley (Jun 11, 2014)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> So your house is open to all refugees, hungry folks, etc.
> Great. Good for you.


Thankyou.
Yes, so do I . And I hope and pray to the Lord to give me strength to continue to do so in the teachings of Jesus.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Murby said:


> Good for people.. we should all take care of each other.. that's called "civilization" and "society"...
> 
> Its not always easy.. Being a rich and helping the poor is easy to do.. Being a normal person who counts their beans and still helps others.. not so easy.. but it speaks volume to the type of character one has.


Being rich and helping the poor is financially easier.
Getting a rich person to let go, is another thing.

Being a frugal person helping the poor is easier.
They are frugal, understand the value of a dollar.

There are so many stories in Scripture that provide examples of giving, and the value. 
Do not let the left hand know what the right hand is doing.
Loosely translates to "give, but don't go blabbing all over everywhere that you give; if you do? 
There is no reward in heaven, your reward is the "atta boys" you get on earth from man.
No thanks.
I would rather have His Rewards.

What I give, and to whom I give, is between me and God.
Do not assume that just because people are not keen on 'embracing refugees' that they do not give, love, or have compassion.

Some folks donate 19.00 a month to save a dog.
Some folks donate 19.00 a month to help a wounded warrior
Some folks donate 19.00 a month to St. Jude to help dying kids.

Don't Judge.
Just because you like dogs more than soilders, or dying kids more than dogs, does not make you a __________. 
Don't Judge.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

murby you seem to just have a general bias against religion. Most of your examples do not make much literal sense. 

How many christian nations have we gone to war with: England during the revolution, ourselves in the civil war, the spanish in the Spanish American war, Germany in ww1, Germany in ww2, Italy in ww2, Russia during the old war (although the state was atheist the official religion of Russia was Christian). 

I think we should end this discussion we are just walking in circles.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Don't Judge.
> Just because you like dogs more than soilders, or dying kids more than dogs, does not make you a __________.
> Don't Judge.


That's excellent advice.
Don't judge.


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## ijon1 (Feb 27, 2014)

When the golden goose USA is dead because of giving so much.They will be no more eggs for anyone.


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