# Battery Additive Wonderment



## Valleyguy (Jan 5, 2011)

I figured this people viewing this category would be the most likely to have knowledge of this product since batteries are a big deal for alternative energy systems.

So,
The other day I was at the GB Battery site, looking for the charge voltage specs for our battery set and noticed an ad for a product called "Battery Equaliser". Evidently they sell it through the service department. Went to the website and sure enough it is a liquid "add to the battery" type product.

It is listed as "This product is non-flammable, non-corrosive and is NOT restricted by D.O.T." So what is it ? I have seen comments/reports of people putting EDTA in a battery to revive it. Of course some claim miracles and other are skeptical.. But, EDTA is an add and remove product so this "Battery Equaliser" probably wouldn't fall into this category. 

I would first think, well, if GB Battery is selling it then it must do something. They sell big batteries to big people so why would they put something out that pegs the hype-o-meter? 

I remember when I was younger and hung out in auto parts stores they always had the miracle battery rejuvenating juice on those displays right at the counter. It was the kind of product where you pick it up and examine it while you are waiting for the guy to go pull your part off of the shelf, because you have nothing better to do. Never asked anyone if they had used it. 

I am off the grid and have several batteries in use. If there is something that would make them have "like new" capacity, I would pull out the credit card in a hurry but an _add n restore_ product, one just has to wonder in a curious sort of way...

Rick
*Homepage*: www.power-talk.net
*Forum*: forum.power-talk.net/


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Sounds just like an "impulse" item that you would see at the checkout line of the 'grocery' store. As I understand company's vie for where the items are placed (money talks) . . .to get your attention for "impulse" sales.
So how much $$$ does the battery Co. get for the add placement. ??
I dought if the bat Co. endorses the product . . .???
Does the product work . . . ??????????

I haven't noticed that a quality battery Co. like Rolls Surrette ever mention such products . . . . . . .

I'll bet you a nickle that what you saw is in fact EDTA . . .
Does it work . . .??????

Now hows that for a non answer . . . . . .lol.

I'll be waiting for TNAndy to chime in on this . . cause it seems he has a new way to dehydrate water . . . . . . . . .LOL


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Jim-mi,


I'll be waiting for TNAndy to chime in on this . . cause it seems he has a new way to dehydrate water . . . . . . . . .LOL 


I Caught that too !


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## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

Valleyguy said:


> I would first think, well, if GB Battery is selling it then it must do something. They sell big batteries to big people so why would they put something out that pegs the hype-o-meter?


Companies do lots of really stupid things when they see extremely high profit margins on some things. $50 for 2 quarts, huh? Wonder what they pay for it (as well as when they do, meaning sometimes they only pay for units when sold.) 

Per the MSDS from "Battery Equaliser", the product is cadmium sulfate (CdSO4). 

From the Rolls Battery web-site: "_Some additives contain cadmium sulfate and this could cause disposal problems in the future. These additives are not beneficial and are not recommended._"

http://www.rollsbattery.com/content/preventive-maintenance-charging-and-equalization-605

Looks like its whose word you want to take. Not sure I would be apt to buy it if its use is questionable.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

I've been through the whole shebang. I have EDTA and tried it on four batteries without success and with a lot of mess.

If you look hard enough on the web, you'll eventually come to pages that say what I'm about to say, but in more technical terms.

Lead acid cells have a finite number of discharge cycles. You can greatly increase the number of these IF you only discharge a battery until it has 80% capacity remaining, AND you properly recharge the battery fairly quickly. You WILL kill cells that you discharge down to 50% capacity, and you will kill cells that aren't properly recharged with a multistage charging routine.

Part of the problem is that sulfation is not equal across the plate, and there are various forms of sulfate that are made. One type is easily returned back into sufuric acid and the soft lead that forms the lead paste on the plates. The other type is much more difficult to convert back. When a significant portion of the plate is covered with that type of sulfate, it will not recharge properly.

EDTA supposedly breaks up this sulfate and makes it fall as a precipitate in the well at the bottom of the battery.

The hucksters suggest that this alone will "rejuvenate" the battery. When Home Power magazine actually did controlled tests a number of years back, the instructions were to use the EDTA, then rinse the cell with distilled water a few times and then replace the sulfuric acid with fresh acid. In a couple of cases, this did rescue batteries that had damage. IIRC, one was from a system that had suddenly been let sit after a divorce. The implication (my interpretation) was that the type of damage was a sudden fairly thin coating of the bad type of sulfate. They did not have consistent good luck, and the idea of just adding the EDTA was pretty much debunked.

What was suggested as something that had a better chance of success was the use of spiked desulfating power from a battery charger or special desulfating circuit. The idea was that the higher than normal short bursts of electricity would dislodge the hard sections of sulfation. Again, the results are spotty, although easily as good as using the EDTA.

The cadmium is likely intended to disrupt the formation of the hard type of sulfate. If jello shots were impossible, then maybe the idea would work. Jello can still jell with alcohol in the mix, and the hard type of sulfate can still form with impurities in the sulfuric acid.


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## Valleyguy (Jan 5, 2011)

Jim-mi said:


> Sounds just like an "impulse" item that you would see at the checkout line of the 'grocery' store.


That's what it feels like.



Mickie3 said:


> Per the MSDS from "Battery Equaliser", the product is cadmium sulfate (CdSO4).
> 
> Looks like its whose word you want to take.


Yep, I never made it as far as the MSDS, interesting. You would think that something as old as the lead acid battery would have already had all the wonder treatments and their effectiveness worked out :umno:.

Rick
*Homepage*: www.power-talk.net
*Forum*: forum.power-talk.net/


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## Valleyguy (Jan 5, 2011)

Harry Chickpea said:


> I've been through the whole shebang. I have EDTA and tried it on four batteries without success and with a lot of mess.
> 
> What was suggested as something that had a better chance of success was the use of spiked desulfating power from a battery charger or special desulfating circuit. The idea was that the higher than normal short bursts of electricity would dislodge the hard sections of sulfation. Again, the results are spotty, although easily as good as using the EDTA.


I've not seen the EDTA thing done personally so it is good to hear your response, and I probably won't try it anytime soon, even to test it out. 

The pulse current method sounds the most interesting and I will be testing one of those units. We have a neighbor that has been using one on his part-time cabin batteries for years and seems to think it is worth while. We'll see if it is a good gadget or a can'o :spam:

Rick
*Homepage*: www.power-talk.net
*Forum*: forum.power-talk.net/


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I'm remembering some of the Home Power's article about doing the EDTA 'cleanse' thing.
I can see turning a golf car bat (T105) upside down . .but the thought of turning a L16 bat (125 lbs or so) upside down is a bit daunting to me.
And the bottom line from the HP article was (I seem to remember) "Have we done anything ?????? for all this effort".

Also on the "Wrenches" site (that I'm on) many also poo poo those pulse units.....................

For batterys there ain't no free lunch.............


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

OK Jim.....I do know how to dehydrate water, got a pot on the wood stove right now just dehydrating away...ahahahaaaa....

But I don't know anything about additives to batteries......I'd tend to lean toward thinking "snake oil" in the absence of real test results.

BUT I have another question for the group....what think ya'll about the electronic de-sulfanators Harry mentions that are supposed to do some kind of pulse deal to keep the plates free of sulfation ?

I've got one on my tractor battery, which I seemed to go thru a battery about every 2 years on it, and this last battery with the electronic pulse gizmo has lasted about 4 now.


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## Valleyguy (Jan 5, 2011)

Jim-mi said:


> I can see turning a golf car bat (T105) upside down . .but the thought of turning a L16 bat (125 lbs or so) upside down is a bit daunting to me.
> 
> Also on the "Wrenches" site (that I'm on) many also poo poo those pulse units.....................


I would have to get the excavator to turn over the forklift battery running our system . That isn't going to be happening.




TnAndy said:


> But I don't know anything about additives to batteries......I'd tend to lean toward thinking "snake oil" in the absence of real test results.
> 
> BUT I have another question for the group....what think ya'll about the electronic de-sulfanators Harry mentions that are supposed to do some kind of pulse deal to keep the plates free of sulfation ?
> 
> I've got one on my tractor battery, which I seemed to go thru a battery about every 2 years on it, and this last battery with the electronic pulse gizmo has lasted about 4 now.


Yes, the test results seem rather old and not super informative.

As for the desulphator, I believe that is the pulse unit that Jim-mi references? It sounds like you have experience with one already. Which one is on your tractor?

Rick
*Homepage*: www.power-talk.net
*Forum*: forum.power-talk.net/


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## sticky_burr (Dec 10, 2010)

pulse units iow pulse chargers are fact. they will break sulfur off the plates if that is the only problem it will resurect a battery. if you let the battery drain too much and the plates are eroded your SOL.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I have had experience with Andy's nice tractor. I just can not see that it would "sit around" long enough for the bat to 'sulfate' and only go two years. 
I'm more inclined to think that it is the 'luck of the draw' as to what you are getting when you get a bat from a dealer---good-better-best-or worse.........

For instance; what short cuts does a bat mano have to do to be able to meet the awfull low price standards of wallyfarts . . ???

Yup YOU pay in the long run with a short life bat...... 

And no bat pulser or EDTA will bring back to life a poor quality bat.



rant off.........


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Yeah, Jim.....I think it's the luck of the draw too. I know most starter type batteries are 3yr....some you get 1 year out of, and some you get 5 years out of....lot of factors. One of them in my tractor is the fact the battery is mounted on the very front end, just behind the bumper under the hood, and as such, takes a LOT of vibration.....which I suspect plays a part in shorter life.

Was thinking next time of trying one of those Optima AGM type batteries. I put two of them in my bulldozer (24v system), which I use very little ( it will sit months at a time without starting ), and going on 3 years now, they crank every time without hesitation.

Rick:

This is the one I have on the tractor:

http://www.batterystuff.com/battery-restoration/12-volt/PP12L.html


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## Valleyguy (Jan 5, 2011)

TnAndy said:


> Rick:
> 
> This is the one I have on the tractor:
> 
> http://www.batterystuff.com/battery-restoration/12-volt/PP12L.html


Thank TnAndy. I have a 48 volt forklift type battery that is the system battery. It's about 1000 AH rated and sometimes it isn't charged properly. Think I will try a pulse charger unit and see what happens but I will need a fairly strong one so I am starting to check around.

BTW, someone on the power-talk forum commented on the Battery Equaliser. Put it in some Surrettes and it appeared to do nothing. Oh well.

Rick
*Homepage*: www.power-talk.net
*Forum*: forum.power-talk.net/


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

"This is the one I have on the tractor:"

http://www.batterystuff.com/battery-...olt/PP12L.html

I use one of these on my battery. I added it to the last set that I replaced. I have 4-6 volt golf cart batteries going on 7 yrs. now. I load tested one in the fall with a 100 amp load and it held in the green for 20 seconds. I'd say they still have some life in them..

My last battery needed to be replaced in 5 yrs and the set before that. I believe it's doing something..

The only liquid additive that I've seen work is to replace the electrolyte. I had an old deep cycle marine battery that was abused by a friend and he was going to throw it away. It was around 3 yrs. old and it wouldn't take a charge. I dumped the electrolyte out of it, flushed it really well with distilled water and replaced the electrolyte with new. I used it for another 2 yrs. on my outdoor lighting system. It didn't have a big current demand but it worked..


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

TnAndy said:


> Yeah, Jim.....I think it's the luck of the draw too. I know most starter type batteries are 3yr....some you get 1 year out of, and some you get 5 years out of....lot of factors. One of them in my tractor is the fact the battery is mounted on the very front end, just behind the bumper under the hood, and as such, takes a LOT of vibration.....which I suspect plays a part in shorter life.
> 
> Was thinking next time of trying one of those Optima AGM type batteries. I put two of them in my bulldozer (24v system), which I use very little ( it will sit months at a time without starting ), and going on 3 years now, they crank every time without hesitation.
> 
> ...


So far Im real impressed with these AGM's on my truck,I cycle the heater 3 times in below freezing weather and truck goes...click VAROOM,fires instantly and no clattering/stumbling cold weather nonsense either.AWESOME!

If you have the money and truly want strong,these are it.210.00 each,Got 2 sears AGM platinums,440 bucks installed/taxes.

Batts are Model P-2 Group 65,..930 cold cranking amps at zero,1175 at 32 degrees,times 2 batts.....

SERIOUS power,maintenance free,no acid fumes to corrode terminals,you got it made.They're pretty too,LOL!


http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/yotarocket/battery-wires007.jpg


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## machinist (Aug 3, 2010)

I never had much luck with any of the Miracle-in-a-Bottle products, but I have not tried EDTA. I have tried the cadmium sulfate products many years ago, and found that it did help for a short time (a couple months) on an otherwise pretty dead battery on the "C" Allis Chalmers. 

Note that those antiques had NO regulator, just a "charging switch" on the dash that selected one of 3 different resistors. You were supposed to switch from one position to another to keep the charging rate reasonable. Those things could kill perfectly good battery in a couple months. Maybe that is why the tractor came with a hand crank! 

I have had some limited experience with a pulse charge desulfator. I was given an old (junk) set of 18 cells in a forklift battery. Cabled in series, this gave a 36 volt unit. They were very dead when they arrived. The set read about 12 volts when I first checked it with a good DVM. I removed the cells from their metal box and re-cabled them into 3 sets of 6 cells to get 12 volts each. I sorted the cells by voltage and put the best, worst and mediocre together to sorta get them matched up. 

The worst group never did much, having one really bad cell in it. The other two groups eventually came up to 12.55 volts (and hold that for a couple weeks just sitting) after messing around with the desulfator over a period of several months. Load tester says they still have some capacity, although far less than new, of course. They are good enough to use for secondary solar system I will use only for lighting. 

My son in law built the desulfator from plans on the web. He has resurrected several batteries that had been pronounced DOA, but in general, it gave about another year or two of useful life. We attribute that to prior battery abuse, rather than the fault of the desulfating process. Seems to me like it all depends on how damaged it is to start with. 

Overall, good battery maintenance is the real answer, IMHO. In general, we are really sold on using forklift batteries for solar applications.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Excellent summary, machinist.


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## Valleyguy (Jan 5, 2011)

machinist said:


> I never had much luck with any of the Miracle-in-a-Bottle products, but I have not tried EDTA. I have tried the cadmium sulfate products many years ago, and found that it did help for a short time (a couple months) on an otherwise pretty dead battery on the "C" Allis Chalmers.
> 
> Overall, good battery maintenance is the real answer, IMHO. In general, we are really sold on using forklift batteries for solar applications.


Yes, I bet the Equaliser product has the same active ingredient as what is found in auto parts store products, cadmium sulfate, that Mickie3 caught on the MSDS sheet. 

As far as the care of the battery we are using right now, its former life was in a forklift that was totaled in an accident. For that reason it wasn't completely shot but it still is a used battery. 

We have had it for a year and a half and I think we really need to do some serious plate desulphating. That is why I was checking out the GB Battery site, looking for charge voltages etc..... I noticed the ad for the Battery Equaliser and got curious. I will probably end up with a desulphator and zap the battery for a while to see what happens.

As far as the forklift battery for the off-grid storage system, I completely agree. The new systems we are putting in will have this type battery. Happy to hear someone else has a similar opinion. 

Rick
*Homepage*: www.power-talk.net
*Forum*: forum.power-talk.net/


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## trkarl (Dec 15, 2009)

As far as desulphator/pulse chargers go Surrette says they will lower the degree of sulfation. 

http://surrette.com/content/renewab...d65c08&phpMyAdmin=3jSJ-jdC5E7b53DHgV8TGvpSCF6

"Pulse charging has shown that banks do not get as severely sulfated as ones with traditional 3 step charging when subjected to the same undercharge conditions. Pulse charging will lower the degree of sulfation but it will not eliminate the need for a controlled, preventive equalization. The benefit of pulse charging is that the bank will require less overcharge and, therefore, less maintenance."

Also Backwoodssolar.com had a write-up on this desulfator

http://www.batterylifesaver.com/

with good results:
"Tom Kingsland, a Backwoods employee, tested this device on his 6 year old Trojan T-105 battery bank and witnessed impressive results. Please call and ask Tom to discuss his test results."

I use one of the 48v ones on my bank.

Still go to a solar power forum and mention desulfators and it is like discussing politics or religion at a family reunion.


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## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

trkarl said:


> Still go to a solar power forum and mention desulfators and it is like discussing politics or religion at a family reunion.


That civil, huh? 

Am wondering, if you start off a with a new battery, will a pulse unit extend its life? That is the take-away I am getting from my research on the topic. Is that a correct assumption?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I haven't seen where 'anybody' could be 100% positive that a desulfator made a "night and day" difference . .?!?!

Yes I have had one on my Surrette bat bank for quite some while..
Is it helping . . . ?????

And I'll also bet ya a nickle that most folks wait way too long before even thinking about doing 'anything' to their bat bank . . and there fore the bat is well on its self destructive down hill run . . from which nothing will effectively save it.........

So by all means put a desulfator on a couple year old bat . . .what have ya got to loose . . . . .?!?!


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