# Running Unleaded in an old engine



## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

I have a 1953 Willys flat-head six. I was wondering if there would be any ill effects of running unleaded gas in it.


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## foxtrapper (Dec 23, 2003)

No. It'll be fine.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

In short term, no, in long term yes valves will recede into the head. Hardened valve seats were a big improvement, whether using leaded or unleaded gas.

What kind of gas mileage are you getting?


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

PhilJohnson said:


> I have a 1953 Willys flat-head six. I was wondering if there would be any ill effects of running unleaded gas in it.


...........HJ is correct , hardened valve seats are in order if you're going to keep the Jeep ! Unleaded gas is OK , it's the % of Ethanol that can create problems , some states are selling 15% ethanol which even My 2008 Ranger Can't Accept . I think it destroys O-Rings and other fuel system parts so educate yourself and be prepared . , fordy


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

with such a low compression ratio,,,lower opp. temperatures. low lift valves with low spring rates.....my guess is that it will run your lifetime...


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

HermitJohn said:


> In short term, no, in long term yes valves will recede into the head. Hardened valve seats were a big improvement, whether using leaded or unleaded gas.
> 
> What kind of gas mileage are you getting?


I take it I would only have to replace the seats then and not the valves? I am considering running this puppy on wood gas which I think would be even harder on the seats than unleaded. Not sure what it gets for mileage since I haven't driven it much more than a mile from home and the brakes don't work. The engine is in an Aero the last of the Willys cars. Been told it should get a 25 mpg. Motor runs excellent, no smoke and is super smooth


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

PhilJohnson said:


> I take it I would only have to replace the seats then and not the valves? I am considering running this puppy on wood gas which I think would be even harder on the seats than unleaded. Not sure what it gets for mileage since I haven't driven it much more than a mile from home and the brakes don't work. The engine is in an Aero the last of the Willys cars. Been told it should get a 25 mpg. Motor runs excellent, no smoke and is super smooth


.............I'm not sure if that would be methanol or ethanol but You most certainly could ruin the engine in my opinion . The engine is probably a continentinal , flathead rated at about 40 Hp . One point , those old flat fender models bring a good price , esp. , IF the engine runs and everything works . I'd have hardened valve seats and stainless valves installed by your local machine shop and run unleaded . But , you aren't wanting to spend any $$ . Regardless , I'd still try to maintain it's mechanical integrity for resale , later . , fordy


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

fordy said:


> .............I'm not sure if that would be methanol or ethanol but You most certainly could ruin the engine in my opinion .


Wood gas is sorta like running your engine off of wood smoke. It isn't a liquid fuel at all. 

http://www.gengas.nu/byggbes/index.shtml

The above website does a pretty good job of explaining it. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTqXYp28DDc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTqXYp28DDc[/ame]

The link above is a small engine running on wood gas. I know Willys flat heads don't exactly grow on trees so I don't want to do anything that will harm the motor. I guess a better comparison would be to running it on LPG or propane which is what wood gas is closer to than methanol or gasoline for that matter.



fordy said:


> The engine is probably a continentinal , flathead rated at about 40 Hp . One point , those old flat fender models bring a good price , esp. , IF the engine runs and everything works . I'd have hardened valve seats and stainless valves installed by your local machine shop and run unleaded . But , you aren't wanting to spend any $$ . Regardless , I'd still try to maintain it's mechanical integrity for resale , later . , fordy


I think the motor has a bit more pep than 40 hp. Seems to have very little problem getting up to 55-60 mph with plenty of pedal left. While I don't have much money if it saves me headache later I'll do it. Was sorta tempted to take the motor and trans out and sell it and put in a modern four cylinder with a 5 speed. That way I won't feel bad if the wood gas conversion burns out the motor  The car so so rusted that it isn't worth much anyway, there are wooden 4x4s nailed into the body to keep it from sagging  Nothing a welder and some angle steel won't fix..... By the way it is a car not a flattie, guess not many people know that Willys did make regular cars after WWII. Below is a picture of it:


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

I looked up some pics of the Willys Aero.

Cool car!!!!! Sounds like it is pretty rare. One website says that they only built 7000 of them.

Are you sure the car doesn't have some real value to someone? It is amazing what they do with body repair and restoration these days. It would be a shame to ruin that motor when someone might pay $$$$ for it.

Do they still sell lead additive for use with unleaded gas?


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

"The equivalent of leaded gasoline can be obtained from unleaded gasoline by mixing it with a commercially available lead substitute additive".
The above statement is from a very active antique automobile club that does a lot of research. I have a low compression 1937 flathead V8 that I have been using an additive in since leaded gas disappeared. To date, I have no problem. At $3 to $5 per bottle this is a lot cheaper than replacing valve seats. Additionally, there were a lot of high performance cars built prior to 1971 when lead was phased out that the owners ran nothing but Amoco high test white gas. This was a non leaded gas and I am unaware of any related valve seat problems in those engines.

Yes, additives are still sold. Some will carry the disclaimer "for off road use"


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

I guess the biggest thing for me is that I want to run this puppy on wood gas eventually. I know it isn't a very common car but it isn't worth much. I have found rare doesn't always equal value, usually it works the other way around. Some of the most common cars out there are worth big bucks because everyone wants them. I do have half a notion to use the three speed manual out of my Ford parts truck and find a 302 V-8 to drop in. Then I could still use the factory column shifter and the larger motor would make up for the power loss from wood gas. And I believe the 302 weighs roughly the same as the little flat-head six. I am sure a super good running Willys flathead has to be worth something these days.


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

Phil,
Have you tried selling the car on a Willys club website?


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

If I were running wood gas, I'd either go for long stroke six like Ford 300 or Chevy 292 and since Jeep probably pretty high numerical rear axle, then go for a 5 spd. Or I'd go at least V8 in 350 size or bigger. You lose half horsepower with wood gas from what I've read. The old long stroke sixes make up for that with low end torque. With V8 you need more displacement. The old Mother Earth News wood gas pickup (short wheelbase half ton), they used a Chevy 454 and found horsepower about right.

Take care of the Willys six and transmission/transfer case and try not to hack up frame/body too much adapting things. These are getting rare in good shape and probably worth something to somebody restoring an old Jeep. Lot of them were junked by people wanting more power and bodies chopped and hacked making high school hot rods. Finding old Willys four cylinder in rebuildable condition getting harder. Remaining engines are getting to point its not easy to do good rebuild economically. Assume the six is the same though not near as many were made.

Are you pretty remote. Just thinking wood gas setup in back is going to draw some attention especially from cops not used to seeing such. In really rural area, local cops probably not hassle you unless they normally hassle you anyway. City and state cops tend not to like anything old or different.

Edit: Sorry, just read its a Willys car, not a jeep so no transfer case. Yea they made cars, just werent that popular so dont think of them. And they sold 4cyl engines to guy making the Henry J also sold as the Alstate by Sears. Gotta be pretty rare, still think worth more if you can find collector of these. Try Hemmings or such. Somebody that wanted one of these might be willing to invest in lot of custom repair work to replace the 4x4s..... LOL, I remember propping up pickup cabs, etc with wood when I lived in UP. When we'd get new state cop transferred from down state, he'd start writing tickets left and right basically junking any old cars he saw. Then the other cops and such would clue him in how it was done locally and he would back off. But not fun to have to scramble just to buy another rusted junker cause cop took a dislike to current one.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

PhilJohnson said:


> I take it I would only have to replace the seats then and not the valves? I am considering running this puppy on wood gas which I think would be even harder on the seats than unleaded. Not sure what it gets for mileage since I haven't driven it much more than a mile from home and the brakes don't work. The engine is in an Aero the last of the Willys cars. Been told it should get a 25 mpg. Motor runs excellent, no smoke and is super smooth


Machine shop would be able to machine head and put in hardened seats. Easiest if there was a later version of engine with the hardened seats, since there isnt, then they have to find something close and make everything work. And lot automotive machine shops will try to talk you out of it since its not high profit work for them. Foolish to rebuild an old engine without installing hardened seats.

If it can get 25mpg, then it would have to have low numerical axle ratio, something like 2.73, at least not much higher than 3.00. My guess is if you got 20mpg without overdrive then you would be doing well.

As to woodgas, do some research on engines run on propane, that should give you a clue as to valve wear. I've never messed with propane engine so couldnt say. I do know the old tractors that ran on propane, the engines way outlasted same engine on gasoline. You dont have liquid fuel washing oil off cylinder wall with LPG so less wear from cold starts.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Ok finally my browser showed pic you posted. Yea small car, so maybe think about a Ford 250 straight six. This is a car only engine. The Ford 240 was just early short stroke version of the 300 and same physical dimensions. 
So you want 250, not a 240. Smaller shorter engine than 300 but still long stroke and bolts up to 300 and 302/351 transmissions. These were made up to around 1980 offered mostly in Granada in those last years if I remember. The Fairmonts and Mustangs got the 200 version. Mustangs offered 5spd with 302, that would be better tranny in car than a truck tranny. Straight six should fit better than V8 where car wasnt designed for V8. V8s in some older cars not designed for them means you have to do lot changing of steering setup.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

.............Well , I was equating Wood gas with drip gas ! Drip has a low octane rating and has done serious damage too engines that have run it . Before the oil field got so sophisticated people would steal drip gas from tank batteries where the oil is collected form several different wells . Just my Ignorance showing ! , lol , fordy


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Clovis said:


> Have you tried selling the car on a Willys club website?


No. I want to keep the car actually. Just trying to determine if I should keep the little six or not and at this point I am leaning towards selling the motor/transmission. 



HermitJohn said:


> If I were running wood gas, I'd either go for long stroke six like Ford 300 or Chevy 292 and since Jeep probably pretty high numerical rear axle, then go for a 5 spd. Or I'd go at least V8 in 350 size or bigger. You lose half horsepower with wood gas from what I've read. The old long stroke sixes make up for that with low end torque. With V8 you need more displacement. The old Mother Earth News wood gas pickup (short wheelbase half ton), they used a Chevy 454 and found horsepower about right.


Well this thing has a pretty short engine bay. No way a 300 would fit in there or a 292. I am partial to 300 sixes and have one in my 77 Ford but in this case I think a 302 would work fine. The original six has around 90 hp so I think a 302 should work pretty decent. I have a 302 V-8 and 3 speed in my parts truck hence me wanting to use that combo  The added bonus is I can keep the shifter in the stock location on the column. The rear end ratio is around 4.10 so I don't think I'll have to worry about needing an overdrive. It is a pretty light car, right around 2500 pounds and with all the holes in the floor it probably weighs about 1500 pounds  It is of unit construction so no heavy frame under this thing. The car is pretty small actually, sort of an early compact of sorts.



HermitJohn said:


> Take care of the Willys six and transmission/transfer case and try not to hack up frame/body too much adapting things. These are getting rare in good shape and probably worth something to somebody restoring an old Jeep. Lot of them were junked by people wanting more power and bodies chopped and hacked making high school hot rods. Finding old Willys four cylinder in rebuildable condition getting harder. Remaining engines are getting to point its not easy to do good rebuild economically. Assume the six is the same though not near as many were made.


The motor is probably best left in the hands of someone who wants to either fix up another Aero or Jeep. I figured 400 bucks for the motor/trans combo should be a fair price. I think it is over 900 for a master rebuild kit and complete rebuilt engines run like 1800 I think. 



HermitJohn said:


> Are you pretty remote. Just thinking wood gas setup in back is going to draw some attention especially from cops not used to seeing such. In really rural area, local cops probably not hassle you unless they normally hassle you anyway. City and state cops tend not to like anything old or different.


Don't think I have to worry about it much where I live. The area is pretty rural. There are a lot of tractors and Amish buggies on the road. Also there are quite a few Amish that drive tractors just like we would drive a car and I have seen them pull big covered wagons with their whole family in it. There are 10 mile stretches in some places with no houses at all just south of me. I used to drive this earlier this year:









Never got any hassle even with a motorcycle gas tank strapped to the roof so I don't think a couple of things hanging off the back of the car will cause much of a stir. And on the backroads I never see cops, do see some pretty messed up stuff though going down them back roads though 



HermitJohn said:


> Edit: Sorry, just read its a Willys car, not a jeep so no transfer case. Yea they made cars, just werent that popular so dont think of them. And they sold 4cyl engines to guy making the Henry J also sold as the Alstate by Sears. Gotta be pretty rare, still think worth more if you can find collector of these. Try Hemmings or such. Somebody that wanted one of these might be willing to invest in lot of custom repair work to replace the 4x4s..... LOL, I remember propping up pickup cabs, etc with wood when I lived in UP. When we'd get new state cop transferred from down state, he'd start writing tickets left and right basically junking any old cars he saw. Then the other cops and such would clue him in how it was done locally and he would back off. But not fun to have to scramble just to buy another rusted junker cause cop took a dislike to current one.


Yup no transfer case here. It is a pretty conventional little car with leaf springs in the back and independent front suspension and coil springs. The body has a lot of rot so I don't have too much apprehension about modifying the car. The stamped metal sheet metal frame rails are almost completely gone. The guy I bought it from was actually going to start chopping it up for patches for his other cars. I have done a bit of rust repair in the past including fixing busted frames but this one is by far the biggest job I have tried to tackle. There is a bit of chicken wire and bondo on the puppy too which I will be replacing. Actually for everyone telling me how rare they are those Willys Aeros seem to pop up pretty regularly on Craigslist by me. They never are very much and seem to be for sale forever. Now a 57 Chevy or even a 60s era Mustang for cheap is a rare thing indeed even though especially in the case of the Mustang they made tons of them things. One thing I am sure glad cops don't go after rusted vehicles around here. They leave them alone. There was a fella that drove an Izuzu Pup for years with a busted frame. He bolted the bed to the cab and didn't even bother jacking up the frame so it would be level. Guy must have driven that thing like that for 6 years and never had it pulled off the road.



HermitJohn said:


> So you want 250, not a 240. Smaller shorter engine than 300 but still long stroke and bolts up to 300 and 302/351 transmissions. These were made up to around 1980 offered mostly in Granada in those last years if I remember. The Fairmonts and Mustangs got the 200 version. Mustangs offered 5spd with 302, that would be better tranny in car than a truck tranny. Straight six should fit better than V8 where car wasnt designed for V8. V8s in some older cars not designed for them means you have to do lot changing of steering setup.


Well I'll be checking the steering setup but I have seen quite a few V-8 swaps on the net into the Aero so I am hoping it'll fit. The motor needs to come out anyway so I can do a proper job of repairing the body. I'll pull the motor/trans out of the parts truck and mock it up to see how it fits. I like the little 250/200 Ford sixes but I am worried that with wood gas they'll be a little too weak. The 302 I think is the narrowest of the American V-8s and I figured with the power loss of running on woodgas it'll be about the same as the little six running on gasoline it replaced.


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## raymilosh (Jan 12, 2005)

All my experience is with air cooled engines (VW) which run much hotter than water cooled engines, so the information below may only be applicable to hot running engines...

I always heard that unleaded gas will burn up valves and seats in short order, so i have always gotten a "triple angle valve job" for my older engines. The 3 different angles help the valve to seat better to decrease the possibility of it leaking and superheating and burning. 

I also run higher octane gasoline in them. (The higher the octane, the cooler the gasoline burns). The engines run significantly cooler and the increase in fuel mileage sometimes more than makes up for the increase in fuel costs.


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## foxtrapper (Dec 23, 2003)

Lead was added to gasoline as an octane booster. Not as a magical valve lubricant. That myth was created later in order to get people to believe lead was necessary in gasoline, ensuring the makers and marketers of gasoline lead additives could continue to make a lucrative profit. It does not, and did not ever, lubricate or otherwise protect valves or valve seats.

A flat head 6 Willys is not high compression, high performance engine. It does nothing that would overwhelm the oem iron valve seats already in the block. They will continue to exist and work and slowly wear away on unleaded gasoline at the same rate they will continue to exist and work and slowly wear away on leaded gasoline.

Hardened valve seats are indeed a good thing, particularly in higher performance engines, or engines with soft heads, like aluminum. But in most iron valve seat applications, hardened seats are superfluous. The iron valve seat in a flat head Willys is more than sufficient.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

foxtrapper said:


> Lead was added to gasoline as an octane booster. Not as a magical valve lubricant. That myth was created later in order to get people to believe lead was necessary in gasoline, ensuring the makers and marketers of gasoline lead additives could continue to make a lucrative profit. It does not, and did not ever, lubricate or otherwise protect valves or valve seats.
> 
> A flat head 6 Willys is not high compression, high performance engine. It does nothing that would overwhelm the oem iron valve seats already in the block. They will continue to exist and work and slowly wear away on unleaded gasoline at the same rate they will continue to exist and work and slowly wear away on leaded gasoline.
> 
> Hardened valve seats are indeed a good thing, particularly in higher performance engines, or engines with soft heads, like aluminum. But in most iron valve seat applications, hardened seats are superfluous. The iron valve seat in a flat head Willys is more than sufficient.



Thanks that makes sense.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

PhilJohnson said:


> I like the little 250/200 Ford sixes but I am worried that with wood gas they'll be a little too weak. The 302 I think is the narrowest of the American V-8s and I figured with the power loss of running on woodgas it'll be about the same as the little six running on gasoline it replaced.


The 200 would probably be marginal, but the 250 is another story. Depends how your car is geared, but the 250 could move around a midsize car, like most old long stroke straight sixes had peak torque down at lower rpms, it just didnt rev real high so not the engine if you want to go 90mph. That low end torque would be nice with low btu fuel I think.

I got a 300 stuffed into my little '84 4wd Ranger but it wasnt easy so really need to measure carefully. The Ranger wasnt designed for a straight six any which way and would guess has shorter engine compartment than your Willys. After I had done it, got to thinking a Chev 250 would have fit easier cause it has distributor and oil pump up front but oil sump in rear. 300 had distributor and oil pump right in middle and was a pain modifying my Rangers axle to allow for it. People have also put 300 in Mustangs and Falcons. It definitely would have plenty power even on wood smoke in such a vehicle.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

I have seen more rod problems using that Amoco white gas we called it than valves few bent push rodes at valve float . I got a 61 I H truck a 77 F 350 put on a lot of miles valves still good .


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## Blu3duk (Jun 2, 2002)

I love the idea of woodgas and the gengas website got me going a few years ago...... I started collecting the parts and pieces and within about 3 weeks i pert near gathered everything up out of the dumpsters around these parts..... just taking the trash over and dropping it off...... the only thing i still lack is the schedule 80 chunk of pipe and I have waffled back and forth as to the size i wanted to go with...... 

I bought the book written by the Cash brothers in the early 1940's in Australia before it went out of print from Lindsays Technical Books and as I was reading it and figuring and thinking [yeah smoke filled the room and my wife had to start up the exhaust fan] I wondered if indeed an increase of hydrogen could be achieved if water was sprayed into the fire chamber on an intermittent basis.... nearly 2/3 through the book the Cash brothers outlined a design that did just that which increases the production of hydrogen by over 50%.

Anyone who knows of woodgas knows it is the Hydrogen that provides the burn for internal combustion just like fossil fuel's "hydro" carbon, it is the water that splits that gives the woodgas the extra boost it needs to feed the bigger engines. 

During WW2 and just after for a few years in europe there was a whole industry that grew up around woodgas, the makers of the units, the retrofitters, the folks who cut up lumber into the correct size blocks...... it was a vital part of the economy of rebuilding the continent in the aftermath of destruction.... then the big oil companies were able to provide gasoline at a more reasonable cost than wood and the industry died out.

Woodgas may or may not catch on in the several states, more than likely it wont, but should people decide to convert a stationary motor to woodgas and make their own power, I believe in certain instances it would pay them 
back in a couple of years depending upon their usage and the cost of their current utility...... 

I also bought the book from Lindsays Convert Wood into Charcoal & Electricity in order to learn a little bit about getting better coke to use in the forge, the fella also runs a small engine on the woodgas made from the process though it is not efficient, it does the job, I have yet to build such a contraption cause we rent here in town and do not have permission to build such a thing and if we did it would probably be to heavy/bulky to try and move anywhere..... though doable in a pinch.

One of these days I will put up the FEMA book on pdf and the Cash brothers book too [I have a website under construction for selling prospecting supplies and plenty of space for these type of files] though I am not sure if the cash brothers file is open or is still under copyright as it is not printed in the several states..... I did find it in an online library and they sent me a copy of it though in my computer crash that link was lost.... 

Producer Gas for Automobiles by John Cash and Martin Cash 1942 Australia is the book information and is more informative than many newer books, including as to what price gasolene vs wood costs per cord in cars, trucks [2-5ton] and the like would be..... in the land down under they also had quite a few producer gas vehicles after the war to end all wars the second.

And I personally do not believe that woodgas will harm the engine as long as regular maintainance is preformed like any other fuel.

William
Idaho


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

I have downloaded some books not currently in print but still under copyright from an Australian website. Australian copyright laws allow such. Its only for out of print books. I still think extending copyright to 99 years and possibility of even further extensions is wrongheaded, but then nobody asked me. The idea of copyright was to protect the interests of the original author during his lifetime, not provide an inheritable royalty income for his great-great-great grandchildren.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Engines that run on wood gas produce less horsepower than the same engine on gasoline. Since you are in the lower horsepower range anyway, perhaps a bigger engine would be needed.
I think a long stroke 6 cylinder, like the Ford 300 or the Chevy 292 would be good choices. 
Because of the slower burning of the wood gas, you'll need to adjust the spark timing. It has been awhile since I researched it, but I think advancing the cam timing might help, too. You can buy a stepped key to offset the cam gear just a bit. Study up and good luck.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Did some measuring and some comparison between the Willys flathead and my 302. From my rough figuring the steering box is right in the way and there is no way I would be able to use the stock shifting setup. Unless I can relocate the steering box the 302 is out of the question for now. So I came up with the idea of instead using a light pressure turbo to offset the power loss. First though I am going to run some small gasifier units on a couple of 5 hp lawn mower engines I have laying around to get the basics down.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

If you just gotta have a V8, consider totally junking the Willys frame and axles. Go get a 2wd S10 or Ranger frame, maybe Bronco2 or S10Blazer frame depending on length needed to come close to matching the Willys body. Disc brakes and steering will be setup where you can get V8 in there. Lot people put V8 in the Ranger/S10 vehicles.

Used to have a link where guy took Bronco2 frame with drivetrain and modified it so he could mount an old CJ2 body on it. Did a nice job though cant imagine why anybody would want that miserable little V6 engine even in a small jeep, I hated the one in my Ranger. Maybe if it had like 5:1 axle ratio where it had some power without going into low range.

I think adding turbo would add that much more complexity to your fuel system.


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## garymunson (Apr 20, 2009)

As posted earler, engines like your Willys are so low performance, valve recession is not an issue. In fact, they were designed for unleaded gas as lead was the original hi-test. Lots of gas was unleaded back then..


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## randy11acres (Aug 29, 2009)

If I read it right, the stamped frame rails are rusted out? If so you will need to fix that/ beef them up especially if going to higher hp.


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