# Plastic, plastic, plastic!



## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

Canada recently hopped aboard the ban on plastic drinking straws, and my immediate thought was, _what a joke_.

In keeping with what a joke it really is, the dairy case at the supermarket where I shop recently sold milk in coated paperboard cartons, _but not anymore._

Everything now other than the 500ml whipping and half-cream variety are in plastic.

Anyone else notice asinine variables in your area related to, where one (or more) plastic item(s)/things are dropped in favour of one (or more) _other,_ or _additional_ plastic things/items?


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## IlliniosGal (Jun 3, 2019)

I haven't seen milk other than half and half and whipping cream in coated cardboard in longer than I remember.


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## gleepish (Mar 10, 2003)

Well, not so much with dairy products specifically, but I do remember when they removed paper bags because plastic was going to save the earth!


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

IlliniosGal said:


> I haven't seen milk other than half and half and whipping cream in coated cardboard in longer than I remember.


For me it came as a shock. Milk in our neck of the woods, other than the large 4L jugs, came in coated paperboard cartons (for the most part).

I wonder if we're just behind the times regarding milk in plastic containers?


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

gleepish said:


> Well, not so much with dairy products specifically, but I do remember when they removed paper bags because plastic was going to save the earth!


Oh, yes, I remember that, too. 

Speaking of paper bags, I remember as a kid, how efficient grocery baggers were, and how thick and durable those old plain brown paper bags were, and those old heavy brown paper bags helped keep things semi-cool until you get things home.

Reusable cloth bags IMO are the answer to all, and I'm hoping that's where shopping as well as grocery bags eventually go.

Question to all. Has everyone adopted the idea of using reusable cloth grocery bags?

I do, and have been doing so for a number of years now. Durable, reusable, environmentally friendly.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

we went from glass gallons, to plastic gallons of milk.
I have seen plastic egg cartons. ironically, organic eggs.
Used to get eggs in a small brown paper bag. was quite a feat to ride home with them and cross two sets of RR tracks without breaking any.
there was the old joke: what do you have in that bag?
Milk.. you can't carry milk in a bag.. why not? cows do
I remember the old timey paper straws. You had better drink fast before they began to unravel, or collapse.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I buy organic milk and it’s always in cardboard. It strikes me as odd that free-range organic eggs come in a plastic container. I look for the paper containers. It’s hard to find things not in plastic.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Let's make everything that is plastic out of aluminum. If anyone throws it away someone will pick it up and sell it at the scrap yard.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

We got by without before, and we can get by without now.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> We got by without before, and we can get by without now.


First world problems huh? 

They still make hard plastic and metal straws.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> First world problems huh?
> 
> They still make hard plastic and metal straws.


Absolutely not just a first world problem. It is a whole world problem. I can't believe Greta lets stuff like this slide.

Microplastics have already been found in birds and fish and whales, so it should have come as no surprise that they have now been discovered in humans. 

The world's largest collection of *ocean* garbage is growing. The Great Pacific Garbage Patch, a collection of *plastic*, floating *trash* halfway between Hawaii and California, has grown to more than 600,000 square miles, a study found. That's twice the *size* of Texas.









Scientists estimate that the North Atlantic Garbage Patch is hundreds of kilometers in size and has a density of 200,000 pieces of trash per square kilometer in some places. Despite its enormous size and density, the patch is, more often than not, invisible to the naked eye and even satellite imaging. The photodegradable plastic that makes up the vast majority of the mass shrinks to smaller than .01 of an inch and is pushed under the surface of the water by deep waves. Unfortunately, this attribute makes it all the more likely that the plastic - and all of its pollutants - will be swallowed by aquatic creatures.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Lisa in WA said:


> It strikes me as odd that free-range organic eggs come in a plastic container.


The cartons use oil that is made from free range organic dinosaurs.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

I'm sitting here wondering what those convenient "soluble" plastic pods containing laundry detergent and automatic dishwasher detergent are doing to people's drainfields?


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## gleepish (Mar 10, 2003)

Cabin Fever said:


> I'm sitting here wondering what those convenient "soluble" plastic pods containing laundry detergent and automatic dishwasher detergent are doing to people's drainfields?


I've only had 1 or 2 that didn't dissolve and those remained in my washer... used them for over a decade at our last place in a system that was over 30 years old and never had a problem.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Maude said:


> Canada recently hopped aboard the ban on plastic drinking straws, and my immediate thought was, _what a joke_.
> 
> In keeping with what a joke it really is, the dairy case at the supermarket where I shop recently sold milk in coated paperboard cartons, _but not anymore._
> 
> ...


Considering BC is supposed to be more environmentally aware than most of Canada, that surprises me. 

Other than 4l milk, we have the choice of buying in plastic or the cartons. I have a strong hate for plastic jugs because they have been known to split and leak. 

My bigger complaint with waste is the single used pod style coffe makers. Everybody tells me that they buy the reusable style but a giant wall of every breed of pods possible indicates somebody is buying them.


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## TroyT (Jun 24, 2008)

For milk take a look at the expiration date on the plastic vs fiber containers. I think you will find the fiber containers have a much longer self life.

I've often found it odd that governments make laws about plastic single use shopping bags but don't bat an eye about disposable single use diapers.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Absolutely not just a first world problem. It is a whole world problem. I can't believe Greta lets stuff like this slide.
> 
> Microplastics have already been found in birds and fish and whales, so it should have come as no surprise that they have now been discovered in humans.
> 
> ...


Not talking about plastic in general but straws. I never use them. It's not a hardship to do without them. Unless I have been deprived all my life and dont know it.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> Not talking about plastic in general but straws. I never use them. It's not a hardship to do without them. Unless I have been deprived all my life and dont know it.


I don't use them either


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

With the legalization of hemp, I am hoping to see many items packaged with products made with it in the near future.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

nchobbyfarm said:


> With the legalization of hemp, I am hoping to see many items packaged with products made with it in the near future.


I did some research on that for this thread.

It is moving pretty slow.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Maude said:


> Canada recently hopped aboard the ban on plastic drinking straws, and my immediate thought was, _what a joke_.
> 
> In keeping with what a joke it really is, the dairy case at the supermarket where I shop recently sold milk in coated paperboard cartons, _but not anymore._
> 
> ...


A friend who works at our county landfill told me that as part of his duties, he inspects how the household trash areas decompose and he said the plastic grocery bag hype is ridiculous because they see plastic grocery bags used as household trash bags decomposing in under a year while the white and black household trash bags take two to three years to almost as long as landscape plastic to decompose.

He said the T shirt shopping bag bans seem to be mostly just a fuzzy feel good effort since most now are vegetable oil based to break down faster and more eco friendly and the best way of disposing the bags is to use them for recycled household trash bags, especially to toss trash from kitchen prep or animal clean up because the bacteria and microbes in the wastes help break the bag down from the inside out in it's recycled use stage.

He said the only reason he can surmise behind the bans is to increase sales of the higher cost insulated reusable grocery bags which also find their way to the landfill when they get torn or the handles break and they take as long or longer than the black trash bags to decompose .

He told me to keep usingmy grocery bags as trash bags and with society's penchant for cheap disposable convenience, even if the folks pushing the bans succeed, paper will make a comeback because that is just the nature of people as a whole.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

HDRider said:


> I did some research on that for this thread.
> 
> It is moving pretty slow.


I agree.

Do you think the largest drag is from the supply side or the product manufacturers side?

ETA- It appears locally that the supply side is an issue with slow production from farmers but I have absolutely no information from the products side.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

mreynolds said:


> Not talking about plastic in general but straws. I never use them. It's not a hardship to do without them. Unless I have been deprived all my life and dont know it.


I don't care for straws either and I have no plans to change in the future nor do I feel the average person will suffer much if they give up straws but like everything, there are exceptions. I've heard from caregivers that it has made things difficult for those caring for people with disabilities. 

My father is in extended care and the staff on his floor simply don't have time to wash the reusable straws and the paper ones seem to collapse.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Absolutely not just a first world problem. It is a whole world problem. I can't believe Greta lets stuff like this slide.
> 
> Microplastics have already been found in birds and fish and whales, so it should have come as no surprise that they have now been discovered in humans.
> 
> ...


Still obsessed with teenage girls?

Plastics are an issue because of a disposable mindset.
The idea of everything being 'Disposable' isn't working out so well since it's not staying 'Disposed'.
Same with a lot of things someone from 100 years ago to the beginning of mankind that would have been a foreign concept.

Micro, and not so micro plastic is showing up in humans and causing problems.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

wr said:


> I don't care for straws either and I have no plans to change in the future nor do I feel the average person will suffer much if they give up straws but like everything, there are exceptions. I've heard from caregivers that it has made things difficult for those caring for people with disabilities.
> 
> My father is in extended care and the staff on his floor simply don't have time to wash the reusable straws and the paper ones seem to collapse.


Straws are good when drinking vinegar for health issues like heartburn, indigestion, etc as the acids are bad on teeth. Reusable metal straws do fine for that.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Shrek said:


> A friend who works at our county landfill told me that as part of his duties, he inspects how the household trash areas decompose and he said the plastic grocery bag hype is ridiculous because they see plastic grocery bags used as household trash bags decomposing in under a year while the white and black household trash bags take two to three years to almost as long as landscape plastic to decompose.


There are many, many methods of repurposing those thin plastic grocery bags. I agree with the hype; the contractor bags and the household hefty style bags don't commonly blow across parking lots, get stuck in trees or to your windshield wipers, but they live on for years buried under the dirt at the dump. We use the small Walmart bags for shipping pillows; filled with shredded paper and they are as effective as styrofoam or packing peanuts. But leave those bags on a workbench near a window exposed to sunlight or uv and they quickly gain the consistency of toilet paper.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

wr said:


> I don't care for straws either and I have no plans to change in the future nor do I feel the average person will suffer much if they give up straws but like everything, there are exceptions. I've heard from caregivers that it has made things difficult for those caring for people with disabilities.
> 
> My father is in extended care and the staff on his floor simply don't have time to wash the reusable straws and the paper ones seem to collapse.


I can't imagine they would be able to use straws again in a medical environment.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

they don't re-use anything. except eating dishes etc.
black contractor bags will fall apart in about a year if exposed to the sun. sooner if you have more sun than we do here is wisc.
buried plastic takes a lot longer. but either whole or broken down, the impact on the environment is the same..
I seem to remember a statement from grade school.
matter can be changed, but cannot be created nor destroyed.. or something like that.
I save plastic straws. I use them over and over.
but eventually they do end up in my garbage dumpster


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

nchobbyfarm said:


> I agree.
> 
> Do you think the largest drag is from the supply side or the product manufacturers side?
> 
> ETA- It appears locally that the supply side is an issue with slow production from farmers but I have absolutely no information from the products side.


I am not really sure. Inertia plays a role in any major transition.


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## gleepish (Mar 10, 2003)

I think that's part of the problem... all these products break down if exposed to sun--what a great idea, except for the fact that very little of a landfills contents are exposed to sun much less air and water. See: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-07-17-mn-14066-story.html But it does make for some fantastic marketing. 

I bet if they started charging by the pound for trash pick up, they'd be picking up much less.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

There seems to be some who believe plastics are not a problem. You are wrong.

Plastics are not organic. They never decompose. They become smaller, but the plastics still exist, just in a smaller, micro level. 

Decomposition is a biological process where microorganisms fed on organic matter and eventually transform it into humus, a rich soil.

Most of the one trillion plastic bags disposed of annually worldwide are not made of organic matter, but are made from a petroleum byproduct which microorganisms do not recognize as food. Accordingly, they never decompose [7].

Given the right conditions and in some cases, a thousand years, plastic bags can _photodegrade_. This is not the same as decomposing. It simply means that the plastic will break into smaller and smaller pieces. It does not reabsorb or transform into the natural elements like carbon, hydrogen and oxygen that make up life on our planet [8,9].

These conditions do not exist in a landfill where many plastic bags end up. The plastic bags in a landfill will neither decompose or biodegrade. As far as we know, *they will remain intact as plastic bags through eternity.*

https://greentumble.com/plastic-bag-degradation-what-you-should-know/​


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Unfortunately, nobody has found a good use for all of the waste plastic, cardboard and glass we generate, where it makes financial sense to recycle it. Most of the recycling programs in the areas I spend most of my time in (IN, IL & MI) are just "feel good" recycle bins they put out in places for the public to put their waste in. Those bins go straight to the landfill because there is no market for this material. Meanwhile, the county claims it has a "recycling program" so they are eligible for various grants and funding programs.

The only truly recyclable material that makes much sense is aluminum. We could package a whole lot more stuff in aluminum and eliminate a lot of the plasitic and glass containers; bottle water, milk, juice, soda, etc. Now somebody is going to jump in and say aluminum causes Alzheimers, but they can put coatings inside the containers so the liquid isn't contacting aluminum directly.

We could also go back to returnable glass containers, but the restaurants and retailers don't want that as they have to handle and store all those containers, and the bottlers have to clean them. Another big one is fast food. If you sit inside, there is no reason for all of the paper bags and throw away stuff, use plates, silverware and cups / glasses. Read somewhere that fast food accounts for 70% of litter, I believe it.

It would be a huge change, but I'd be in favor of paying a bit more for my products in the interest of cleaning up the environment.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

JeepHammer said:


> Still obsessed with teenage girls?
> 
> Plastics are an issue because of a disposable mindset.
> The idea of everything being 'Disposable' isn't working out so well since it's not staying 'Disposed'.
> ...


I love teenage girls.

Why do you hate teenage girls?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Fishindude said:


> Most of the recycling programs in the areas I spend most of my time in (IN, IL & MI) are just "feel good" recycle bins they put out in places for the public to put their waste in. Those bins go straight to the landfill because there is no market for this material. Meanwhile, the county claims it has a "recycling program" so they are eligible for various grants and funding programs.


This is a very unreported truth that most people don't know about. Much of those plastics and bottles just get dumped right back into the garbage truck.
Feel good programs for people to drive past on their way to the mall and think "Oh, good, someone is doing something" when many times it is little more than free money (taxpayer dollars) for building a road going nowhere.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> Micro, and not so micro plastic is showing up in *humans and causing problems*.


Other humans are still the leading cause of problems in humans.



HDRider said:


> Most of the one trillion plastic bags disposed of annually worldwide are *not made of organic matter*, but are made from a petroleum byproduct which microorganisms do not recognize as food.


Petroleum is "organic".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum


> Petroleum is a fossil fuel derived from ancient fossilized organic materials, such as zooplankton and algae.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Maude said:


> For me it came as a shock. Milk in our neck of the woods, other than the large 4L jugs, came in coated paperboard cartons (for the most part).
> 
> I wonder if we're just behind the times regarding milk in plastic containers?


You are way behind the times regarding milk in plastic containers. The 2 and 4 litre jugs have been the main container for decades in many parts of Canada. 

Ontario and other parts have the best system with very thin and strong plastic bags and a dispensing container that is also plastic but one lasts forever. Still have mine from 30 years ago. The bags were introduced in 1967 and 80% of milk in Ontario and 50% of milk in other parts comes in these bags. 

Milk, juice and other liquids used to come in glass bottles but the weight difference between glass and plastic containers made transportation (fuel) much cheaper with plastic. 

Many manufacturers are thinning all sorts of plastic containers and also providing refill packages. 

All of this is a start just as getting rid of one use items such as straws and shopping bags. We use stainless steel straws at home and have no trouble with cardboard straws (compostable) in restaurants. They worked fine for my parents and grandparents and the suck is the same.

The statistics of plastic garbage and the absorption of micro beads into us and our food chain and water is horrific. We are literally polluting ourselves. Over 500 million plastic doggie poop bags are used each year. Putting an organic waste in a bag that will not bio-degrade for hundreds of years seems really stupid but it should provide the archaeologists of the future with interesting work.


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## gleepish (Mar 10, 2003)

emdeengee said:


> ...Putting an organic waste in a bag that will not bio-degrade for hundreds of years seems really stupid but it should provide the archaeologists of the future with interesting work.


that made me laugh out loud for real... sad, but true!


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

There seems to be some who belive plastics are not a problem


Bearfootfarm said:


> Other humans are still the leading cause of problems in humans.
> 
> 
> Petroleum is "organic".
> ...


While geologists agree that crude *oil* can come from *inorganic* means, the majority of commercially recovered petroleum, they say, is *organic*. And they are frustrated with advocates of this alternative theory who dismiss evidence of a biological origin or interpret organics in crude *oil* as contaminants.

Be that as it may, 











And by decomposition, it sounds like it just turns into micro particles of plastic when it decomposes.

We have a plastic problem.


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## Twp.Tom (Dec 29, 2010)

Plastics contain petroleum. With the proper system of burning (filters/scrubbers), they could be broken down, and used for energy?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Twp.Tom said:


> Plastics contain petroleum. With the proper system of burning (filters/scrubbers), they could be broken down, and used for energy?


I wonder why this has not been done.

Power generated from incinerators makes a lot of sense. They can scrub the exhaust.

Ever heard of Flakt? I worked for them.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Twp.Tom said:


> Plastics contain petroleum. With the proper system of burning (filters/scrubbers), they could be broken down, and used for energy?


I burn them in my burn barrel along with paper, cardboard and anything else that will burn.
I figure that's better than filling up the landfill.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

When I was a kid you bought motor oil at a gas station in quart glass jars with a screw on pour spout. then they came out with the medal lids and waxed card board containers for quarts and large metal gallon and two gallon containers. some time in 1970 they started useing plastic jugs for every thing from a guart to several gallons.

when I first started reloading my shot gun powde came in a card board container then later in tin cans for a pound and round tins for several pounds. today it comes in round plastic jugs i hate and refuse to use even the 8 pounders are plastic.

I clean out the quart plastic oil containers and re fill them with gun powder and relabel them. they stack with less wasted space than the round plastic bottles.

I would sure hate to see them do away with plastic shopping bags. there would not be any hanging in trees and brush waveing in th ewind along our road ways to brighten up the country side.

 Al


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Twp.Tom said:


> Plastics contain petroleum. With the proper system of burning (filters/scrubbers), they could be broken down, and used for energy?


This is being done in Minnesota. State law requires that all trash be sorted. Many communities comply with this law by offering the pickup of recyclables. Some communities that don't offer recycling, send their unsorted trash to sorting facilities. At the sorting facility, the trash gets dumped onto a conveyor line and people remove recyclables. The plastic that gets removed is sent to the solid waste incinerator where it is used as fuel to assist in burning the other wet trash that is sent to the incinerator.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

It wouldnt bother me a bit to go back to only glass, metal, and wood. But not going to happen unless plastic just zoomed in price. Or some new product undercut it in price, like natural gas did to coal. Plastic is light weight and you drop it, it isnt going to break or break anything it falls on. Its also loved by manufacturers both again for light weight and built in obsolescence. Plastic is not stable, it degrades and cracks and such so limited lifespan no matter what you do. You arent going to hand down plastic heirlooms to your grandkids. Though people have so much "stuff" anymore, its usually more problem of how to get rid of it when person thats been buying it all their life dies.

Yet our economy is based on selling ever more stuff to ever more people (on credit) so with that kind of mentality, looks like we are headed to:


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

alleyyooper said:


> When I was a kid you bought motor oil at a gas station in quart glass jars with a screw on pour spout. then they came out with the medal lids and waxed card board containers for quarts and large metal gallon and two gallon containers. some time in 1970 they started useing plastic jugs for every thing from a guart to several gallons.
> 
> Al


Wow, oil in glass jars, thats long time ago. But its been in steel cans from that time too. Just like beer. And back then people usually hired oil changed, it came in steel barrels bulk. Corner garage didnt buy it in small containers except to resell to customers. I remember Dad buying it in steel barrel for farm equipment. Though sometimes he bought it in 5 gallon cans. Set barrel up on stand with a spigot. I cant remember if they refilled the barrels or just swapped out empty for full one. People reused the 5 gallon cans as gas can.

You know I wonder if that oil sold in glass jar wasnt bulk oil. The local garage just had the glass jars for customers that wanted a small amount. Cause shipping oil in glass seems doomed to be a big mess. Guessing maybe the oil in glass started in WWII when metal went to war effort. Probably the cardboard cans too. And I do remember oil in all steel cans.



















Oh the cardboard oil cans with metal ends, pretty sure lasted through 70s and into 80s. There was a transition period in there where both plastic bottles and the cardboard round cans. All plastic by 90s, probably in 80s sometime but I just dont remember exactly.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

I wish they would go back to using returnable beer cases. I have a couple in the basement that I want to get rid of.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

"Looks like yer a quart low...." Engines don't lose a quart every thousand miles as they used to. Fifty thousand miles would be the time to get an engine overhaul--rings, valves bearings. Then the oil would quit leaking out, or burning through--to the roadway or the air behind the car. I remember the old clunkers that would billow off clouds of oil smoke as they went down the road. Now, *that* was pollution. And all the asbestos from the brake pads?????

geo


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Yes thye oil came in bulk a truck came to the station and refilled those tanks. the people who worked in the station filled the glass jars useing a hand pump more had a crank but some went back and forth. I have one of the glass jags with top in my collection and one of the crank pumps.

I remember the steel oil cans also used to stomp down on emptys and walk around in them. 

My dad used to just trade out the oil barrel with the guy that delivered our bulk gasoline for the equipment.
Our grease came in a five gallon pail also. used to take the pressure pump off ther top every now and then and coat the hand grease guns with used oil and fill them sucking the grease up in the guns .
I still have dads pressure punp and several of the hand grease guns.


 Al


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

alleyyooper said:


> Yes thye oil came in bulk a truck came to the station and refilled those tanks. the people who worked in the station filled the glass jars useing a hand pump more had a crank but some went back and forth. I have one of the glass jags with top in my collection and one of the crank pumps.
> 
> I remember the steel oil cans also used to stomp down on emptys and walk around in them.
> 
> ...


Yes, the clippety - clopping of those squashed cans under our feet! What great old memories!


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## Savrens (Jun 23, 2007)

I came across a headline about Jakarta sinking so I went investigating since we hear about the ocean rising.
While reading an article, a sidebar of pictures drew my attention. It was about a seawall they had built to protect the city. There was something about the picture that that didn't seen right. Then it clicked.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Twp.Tom said:


> Plastics contain petroleum. With the proper system of burning (filters/scrubbers), they could be broken down, and used for energy?


Some places do that now.
I have a friend who used to work at an incinerator that burned trash to generate steam.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

I have a pile of those grease guns.
and I have a couple of the pour spouts that you would poke into the top of the metal oil cans.
they worked on the paper cans, too, but once in awhile the paper can would buckle when you pushed down on the fill spout.
In high school I owned a car that "used" a lot of oil.
in order to save money, I would stop at a service station and dip out a quart of the drain oil they had collected in a 55 gal barrel.
before detergent oil, I knew of a farm where they collected the drain oil in a barrel. there was a spigot about 6 inches from the bottom on the side of the barrel. when they changed oil, they would drain out as much oil as they needed for the job, then dump the used oil into the top of the barrel. after a short period of time the dirt would settle to the bottom, below the spigot and the clean oil would be above the spigot, ready to be reused again.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

IlliniosGal said:


> I haven't seen milk other than half and half and whipping cream in coated cardboard in longer than I remember.


I think that going back to that would be more productive.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Y'all talking about the metal top cardboard oil cans gave me a chuckle in thinking back to last summer straightening up my tool box and stand. While not admitting how long I have been collecting my tools, when I first started driving and doing my vehicle maintenance at home , my father gave me my own can opener spout so I wouldn't always put his from his toolbox in my trunk.

When I saw that long not used spout, I thought to toss it in the trash, but remembering the days of my youth, instead I just put it in the back of the bottom drawer just to remember the old days


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

HDRider said:


> I love teenage girls.
> 
> Why do you hate teenage girls?


Never said I had an issue with teen girls,

Just don't have an obsession with a particular teen girl which is anti-social behavior, if not outright mental illness.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Twp.Tom said:


> Plastics contain petroleum. With the proper system of burning (filters/scrubbers), they could be broken down, and used for energy?


Burning plastics produces PCBs and Dixon, among other nasty chemicals.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> Burning plastics produces PCBs and Dixon, among other nasty chemicals.


Which is why they use catalytic converters and filters



JeepHammer said:


> Just *don't have an obsession* with a particular teen girl which is anti-social behavior, if not outright mental illness.


You keep bringing her up even when others don't.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Farmers used to save old motor oil for burning brush(along with old rubber tires), or to spread on the gravel road in front of the house, to keep the dust down. That was recycling, wasn't it?

Oh yes, poured motor oil on the pond to kill the mosquitoes. And creosote on the walls of the chicken house to kill mites.

geo


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

"You want your milk in a bag?" 
"No thanks I always use a glass."

geo


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

geo in mi said:


> "You want your milk in a bag?"
> "No thanks I always use a glass."
> 
> geo


Well here is liquid holding bag for you, but after milk was in that during a warm afternoon, not sure I would want to reuse it. Oh and it has nice plastic nozzle cause thats why you buy a copy of a period wine bag....


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Which is why they use catalytic converters and filters
> 
> And that's called following the rules. I believe what was being addressed was the issue of burning plastic in a burn barrel. One may believe; 'Hey, what harm is one guy burning a few plastic jugs gonna do'? What happens when a few million are doing it?


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

We used to cut cedar post pot them in a 55 gallon barrel fill up with used oil and soak them for a good long while before being used.
Cedar takes a while to rot and oil soaked ones even longer.

 Al


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

the telephone company and electric company treated some poles with creosote. called them black jacks..
I once saw a grass fire burn up to six electric poles .
the fire climbed up each pole and the fire department was called.
I know who started the grass fire.. He has been deceased for 20 years..


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## 54metalman (Jul 12, 2011)

I have had an idea for years and try every day to make it happen. Change starts at home. I am not one to be told by ANYONE, government included, what to do or how to act. I try and use as little plastic or other BS. I do my best and the reason I joined this site to be as self sufficent as possible. Reuse, repurpose, recycle, ect. Lead by example is my thought.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Twp.Tom said:


> Plastics contain petroleum. With the proper system of burning (filters/scrubbers), they could be broken down, and used for energy?


The system has already existed and been in use for years. A Japanese invention for commercial or domestic use that turns plastic back into oil. We have / had one here in our recycling plant since 2012 and because of this they have no fuel or electric cost.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/whitehorse-gets-machine-to-convert-plastic-into-oil-1.1287529


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

They've also tried to do the trash to energy thing burning trash to generate steam for a boiler, generator, and make electricity but most of those attempts have proven to be inefficient and the electricity was much more costly than a standard natural gas or coal fired plant.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Fishindude said:


> They've also tried to do the trash to energy thing burning trash to generate steam for a boiler, generator, and make electricity but most of those attempts have proven to be inefficient and the electricity was much more costly than a standard natural gas or coal fired plant.


It cannot compete as an energy source.

That said, is it still not an efficient way to rid ourselves of plastics?


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Just as plastic barrels can float a swimming raft, why not re-use our plastics to build floating cities? Then if the oceans do rise...….

geo


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## Twp.Tom (Dec 29, 2010)

Sweden burns plastic for heat . It has a carbon footprint, but I think its a good alternative. The EU has set targets for recycling in the future. In a warmer climate this might not work-but it is an alternative.*


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

geo in mi said:


> Just as plastic barrels can float a swimming raft, why not re-use our plastics to build floating cities? Then if the oceans do rise...….
> 
> geo


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

TroyT said:


> I've often found it odd that governments make laws about plastic single use shopping bags but don't bat an eye about disposable single use diapers.


Thinking back to the baby days in our house, I remember how it used to pain me (even back in the day before the environmental movement was strong) when a pair of plastic baby panties ended up in the garbage pail.

Still, much better IMO than the sheet plastic from a disposable diaper.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Coca Cola is once again the world's biggest user of plastic bottles. 108 billion a year - one company using a fifth of the worlds plastic bottle use. Reduce, reuse, recycle seems not to be even a consideration for most people, companies and countries. A real waste.

By 2050 there will be more plastic in the ocean than fish.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

emdeengee said:


> Coca Cola is once again the world's biggest user of plastic bottles. 108 billion a year - one company using a fifth of the worlds plastic bottle use. Reduce, reuse, recycle seems not to be even a consideration for most people, companies and countries. A real waste.
> 
> By 2050 there will be more plastic in the ocean than fish.


These are the sad figures that make me cringe reading and knowing them.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

The figures and the reality will only get worse.

The planet had a huge environmental crisis once already - the depletion of the ozone layer and the hole in the ozone over the southern pole - which was discovered in 1970 and proven to be the result of the use of the CFC chemicals. 

The scientists who discovered this had to face the same propaganda and vilification that the climate change scientists face today. Both times it all had to do with money and the companies that were making $billions and determined not to let even the destruction of life on the planet stop them.

The world was extremely lucky that time because two of the most powerful leaders of two of the most powerful countries had the intelligence to see and accept what was happening. Ronald Reagan was an outdoors man and Margaret Thatcher was a chemist (scientist) by profession. It took almost 15 years to get CFCs banned across the whole world and it was these two leaders who got it done by banning them in their own countries and convincing the other developed countries to help the poor countries phase them out.

It was a great accomplishment but there is another side to the story. HFCs which replaced CFCs do not destroy the ozone (which is still in the recovery state) but they are one of the most potent green house gases and along with natural and immense quantities of human produced carbon dioxide are heating up the planet at an escalating rate. 

The irony is that HFCs are the cooling agent in air conditioners and the warmer the planet gets the more we will use them and thus the hotter the planet gets. Until the tipping point that is when air conditioning will be unsustainable and ineffective.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

A novel approach to recycling by Israeli company UBQ Materials. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...rtup-ubq-turning-trash-into-plastic-products/


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

emdeengee said:


> The figures and the reality will only get worse.
> 
> The planet had a huge environmental crisis once already - the depletion of the ozone layer and the hole in the ozone over the southern pole - which was discovered in 1970 and proven to be the result of the use of the CFC chemicals.
> 
> ...


Havent used used my air conditioner since 2004. Moving to where it will be 5 to 10 degrees warmer at lower altitude. See if I keep my resolve. My biggest hassle with air conditioner is that it would cool room down and shut off before the humidity was gone. So got cold and clammy. Not pleasant at all. Smallest air conditioner out there so assume it was still oversized for room. Also you got used to cool air, going outside was tortuous. Much easier to move away from a fan.


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## Country_Guy (Aug 5, 2018)

I always find it curious how people want to hate on plastics and go back to the good 'ol days of paper, aluminum, glass and so on. In full disclosure, I'm a Plastics Engineer and for going on 25 years plastics has paid my bills, fed my family and put a roof over their head. Before the hate flies, I consider myself to be an outdoorsman, lover of the great outdoors and a fledgling purveyor of permaculture. I often shake my head at the shear lunacy of people in this world and their oh so short memories and opinions made on hear say and "I heards" rather than being based on actual facts and say studies that adhere to the scientific method.

The plastics in the oceans - is that Americans throwing it out there? No, almost all of that is from Asia, just like air pollution. Only the US seems to be dumb enough to neuter ourselves for something we have little impact on. Look at what our actual emissions are compared to China and India. If people want to shake fingers and look down their noses and tell someone to change and clean up their act, go look at Asia. Want to cut power plant emissions, approve the latest tech nuclear thorium reactors. But the sheep in this country are to blinded by the progressives screaming about nuclear being our end. Solar you say, how many acres of land will need to be covered over with solar farms to replace the annual output of 1 coal or 1 nuclear plant. 

Oh those "evil" plastic bags. Go look at the areas where all these bag bans have went into effect or where all the enlightened live. Look at the incident rates of food born illnesses in those areas. You might be very surprised by the rates you find, you'll have to dig some but the reality is out there. Interesting issue seems to come back to the fact that people are slobs, they don't wash those cloth bags so when things like raw meat or dairy items leak into their bag it sits there and festers till they toss in their groceries next week or month and contaminate them with the petri dish science experiment growing in those bags. Oh and why did we go away from the nostalgic brown paper bags, people didn't like all the trees being clear cut.

Glass bottles, oh yeah, glass breaks and people get cut, litter leaves broken shards all over to get cut on and puncture tires, less can be shipped in trucks as weight increases thru the roof to put things in glass vs plastic which increase fuel use and air pollution. Cost of energy is substantially higher to process glass and aluminum than plastic.

As to recycling, as others have mentioned, there isn't a market and people are lazy in recycling leaving things dirty and mixing things, it costs a lot of money to sort it and convert it back to a clean (unmixed) form. All the do gooders screaming to recycle for some funny reason don't seem to like to buy things that are made of recycled products. There have been several companies that developed processes to recycle PET water and soda bottles into thread and fabric to make things like tee shirts. They didn't sell, buy a shirt made from "dirty" bottles...ewww. So they go bust and a conversion process for the waste stream goes away.

I know, let's go back to those all steel cars of the 50's. 60's and early 70's that weighed tons and got 7-9mpg... oh wait... that means more gas, more pollution. Government mandated CAFE standards forced automakers to light weight vehicles to get up MPG ratings. First it was thinner steels, unibodies instead of frames, and plastics that all allowed cars to be light weighted to the point that some cars out there today to get what 40 and 50mpg. Now the down side has also been every time the government has pushed those CAFE MPG targets up the death rates from motor vehicle accidents has correspondingly increased too. I'm sure that's just another one of those "coincidences". There are items and products today that if not for plastics and the methods we can form them with, the items couldn't be manufactured out of any other material.

Lastly to help you eliminate "evil" plastic, the next time your at the doctor to get a shot for you or your kids, you tell them no plastics for you by Jove, you want an old school, reused glass syringe and reused needle. Hopefully it got fully cleaned and sterilized, well at least maybe a quick wipe with an alcohol swab. I'm sure the junkie or HIV patient that was in there before you to get their flu shot couldn't pass anything on. Same thing for that surgery you or our loved one has coming up, no one time use instruments for you, no sirree.... you want only the old ones he's used the last 10 years on their last 1000 patients.

I'll leave the one turtle with a straw up it's nose that somehow transformed into an extinction level epidemic over night. But thanks Starbucks, no straws from you, instead well use your new plastics sippy cup lid that probably contains as much or more plastic than the old lid and straw did.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Country_Guy said:


> I always find it curious how people want to hate on plastics and go back to the good 'ol days of paper, aluminum, glass and so on. In full disclosure, I'm a Plastics Engineer and for going on 25 years plastics has paid my bills, fed my family and put a roof over their head. Before the hate flies, I consider myself to be an outdoorsman, lover of the great outdoors and a fledgling purveyor of permaculture. I often shake my head at the shear lunacy of people in this world and their oh so short memories and opinions made on hear say and "I heards" rather than being based on actual facts and say studies that adhere to the scientific method.
> 
> The plastics in the oceans - is that Americans throwing it out there? No, almost all of that is from Asia, just like air pollution. Only the US seems to be dumb enough to neuter ourselves for something we have little impact on. Look at what our actual emissions are compared to China and India. If people want to shake fingers and look down their noses and tell someone to change and clean up their act, go look at Asia. Want to cut power plant emissions, approve the latest tech nuclear thorium reactors. But the sheep in this country are to blinded by the progressives screaming about nuclear being our end. Solar you say, how many acres of land will need to be covered over with solar farms to replace the annual output of 1 coal or 1 nuclear plant.
> 
> ...


Polymers (plastics) have done more to improve the standard of living and sanitation than just about anything invented. So, they are bad. It is the Glyphosate argument exponentially. Some that benefit from it everyday want to shame others because they can say they don't like it and think it will kill the planet while they enjoy the benefits of it.


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## Country_Guy (Aug 5, 2018)

Not trying to shame anyone but sure seems like a lot trying to shame plastics as only an evil when they ignore the major improvements in their health and safety everyday of their lives. I totally agree that tons of plastic are wasted daily I mean look at how many toys go in the trash everyday. I was a kid of the 70's and 80's, I remember when most everything came in glass bottles, aluminum cans and paper bags and they were left all over the place as litter. People didn't recycle all that either nor did they bother to throw it away properly.


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## gleepish (Mar 10, 2003)

I remember in '85 or '86 writing an assigned essay on 'Our Disposable Society'. Funny how almost 40 years later that essay would probably still apply. There are times when I really wish I had a paper bag--and if I had one it would probably be filled with more folded paper bags. I've never been mistaken for an environmentalist, that's for sure. But I do try to limit my waste in general. I think that is something that everyone should be doing. But I'm not about to tell someone that they MUST do it, or they can't use a straw.... come on folks, there has to be a happy medium somewhere in the all of this.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

Oregon has banned straws and single use plastic bags. I am all for saving the environment but come on!! If you don't want us using plastic straws,give an alternative. Charging five cents for "reusable" PLASTIC bags may not seem like much but when you fill two carts full of stuff because you have hungry heathens and critters at home,they add up!!


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Ok, the straw thing seems kinda silly, but honest, how many adults use a straw? I cant remember using a straw since I was like 8 year old. I suppose some invalids can sip through a straw when they cant lift a glass. But how many straws do invalids use?


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## gleepish (Mar 10, 2003)

HermitJohn said:


> Ok, the straw thing seems kinda silly, but honest, how many adults use a straw? I cant remember using a straw since I was like 8 year old. I suppose some invalids can sip through a straw when they cant lift a glass. But how many straws do invalids use?


LOL about the only time I use a straw is when I'm driving, and the only reason I use one then is to avoid the cup from blocking my view.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Country_Guy said:


> I always find it curious how people want to hate on plastics and go back to the good 'ol days of paper, aluminum, glass and so on. In full disclosure, I'm a Plastics Engineer and for going on 25 years plastics has paid my bills, fed my family and put a roof over their head. Before the hate flies, I consider myself to be an outdoorsman, lover of the great outdoors and a fledgling purveyor of permaculture. I often shake my head at the shear lunacy of people in this world and their oh so short memories and opinions made on hear say and "I heards" rather than being based on actual facts and say studies that adhere to the scientific method.
> 
> The plastics in the oceans - is that Americans throwing it out there? No, almost all of that is from Asia, just like air pollution. Only the US seems to be dumb enough to neuter ourselves for something we have little impact on. Look at what our actual emissions are compared to China and India. If people want to shake fingers and look down their noses and tell someone to change and clean up their act, go look at Asia. Want to cut power plant emissions, approve the latest tech nuclear thorium reactors. But the sheep in this country are to blinded by the progressives screaming about nuclear being our end. Solar you say, how many acres of land will need to be covered over with solar farms to replace the annual output of 1 coal or 1 nuclear plant.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for a very educated view.

If I may attempt to summarize; You do not see a problem with our current use of plastic, but we are grossly negligent in its disposal. Am I understanding you correctly?

Again, thanks. I value your insight.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Country_Guy said:


> I know, let's go back to those all steel cars of the 50's. 60's and early 70's that weighed tons and got 7-9mpg... oh wait... that means more gas, more pollution. .


I am guessing you didnt drive a car back then, maybe werent born back then. The mid 50s Chevy with 265 V8 and manual transmission with overdrive could get up to 25mpg. I had a 1971 Buick LeSabre with Buick 350 (not Chevy 350), TH350 automatic (no overdrive and no lockup converter), weighed in excess 4000 pound but close to 4000 pound, sure you can look up exact weight if interested. Simple points ignition and 2BBL carb. Got 22mpg on hiway, 13mpg in town. 1971 was pre pollution era so it had more efficient cam than pollution era. My 1994 4wd Ranger weighed 4200 pound, had a V6 4.0L and manual transmission. At one point it got 8mpg. When I found problem (air leak in PLASTIC tube so air wasnt metered properly) it topped out 16mpg, thats it, despite all the plastics and electronics. It had enough power, but no where near the power of that Buick 350. Both interestingly enough were geared about the same. Both weighed about same. If you notice modern cars are HEAVY, only the super large luxury barges of 60s and 70s that hit 5000 pound were comparable. Few people owned 5000 pound cars back then, those were luxury cars.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Back in the day those cars seemed to last forever. The engines were relatively easy to maintain and repair. You still see a lot of them at car shows with owners who drove the cars to the show.

Mom had a 70's era VW that got about 40 mpg. That car bit the dust after it got hit by lightning, with over 200,000 miles on it. The plastic all crystallized and fell apart.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I use straws, I like straws. I don't want a stainless steel straw but would be willing to go back to using those paper straws. I admit that if a straw ban was implemented in Ohio I would stock up and possibly import some from out of state if necessary. If there was a way to clean straws I would save and reuse them.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

There are alternatives for straws and plastic bags(specially sheopping bags). You either have not looked or more probably don't care to. Stainless steel straws for at home and cardboard straws (as were used for decades budget our parents and grandparents) and even pasta straws in restaurants. Cloth shopping bags just require a little forethought.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

The statistics for single use or easy disposable items are shocking. People generally only think about their own garbage not the big picture. We are burying ourselves in trash and polluting the world of our children.
Two billion disposable razors and blades are thrown away each year in the US alone.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

emdeengee said:


> There are alternatives for straws and plastic bags(specially sheopping bags). You either have not looked or more probably don't care to. Stainless steel straws for at home and cardboard straws (as were used for decades budget our parents and grandparents)


I hate stainless steel straws. I will not use one. Paper straws have not been available here for decades. Yes, I have looked. I have also looked for straw cleaning brushes (in some stainless steel straw kits) which don't include ss straws but also, not available. I did see some silicone straws once, $8 for a 3 pack, no cleaning brush. If you can't clean the straws they can make you sick when reused. Milk and some other drinks do not just wash out of straws. 

Of course there are alternatives to plastic shopping bags. I posted some very creative ideas in another thread.


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## gleepish (Mar 10, 2003)

Danaus29 said:


> I hate stainless steel straws. I will not use one. Paper straws have not been available here for decades. Yes, I have looked. I have also looked for straw cleaning brushes (in some stainless steel straw kits) which don't include ss straws but also, not available. I did see some silicone straws once, $8 for a 3 pack, no cleaning brush. If you can't clean the straws they can make you sick when reused. Milk and some other drinks do not just wash out of straws.
> 
> Of course there are alternatives to plastic shopping bags. I posted some very creative ideas in another thread.


I have a straw cleaning brush--funny thing is, it's made out of plastic! 
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-Bottle-Straw-Cleaning-Set/561080624


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Silicone and stainless straws have the same suck as plastic. If you cannot find paper or cardboard straws then you are not looking on line. You can also now buy reed straws.

Every pack we have looked at or bought included a cleaning brush. If not, then once again available on line.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Maude said:


> Question to all. Has everyone adopted the idea of using reusable cloth grocery bags?
> 
> I do, and have been doing so for a number of years now. Durable, reusable, environmentally friendly.


And according to many health department warnings: full of bacteria.
---
I never could figure out why they would switch from a renewable resource (paper bags) to one made from petroleum
---
Anyone who thinks plastic straws are the worst plastics problem needs their head examined: milk jugs, soda containers, Heck car bodies are at least 75% plastic - how many straws could you make out of just one car body?.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

To all here who mentioned plastic drinking straws, I recall there being a site I visited a handful of years ago that sold glass drinking straws. Not ideal for little ones, but a nice option for those that loathe trying to take in a gulp of a favourite beverage, only to be met with a mouthful of ice cubes.

I'm branching out on this one, but drinking straws for me have always been a must do - must have, in a restaurant, especially when tackling a rib or chicken dinner where ones hands are greasy. Being able to take a sip of your pop without grabbing onto the glass is a plus.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

emdeengee said:


> Silicone and stainless straws have the same suck as plastic. If you cannot find paper or cardboard straws then you are not looking on line. You can also now buy reed straws.
> 
> Every pack we have looked at or bought included a cleaning brush. If not, then once again available on line.


No credit card, no debit card, no online shopping.



gleepish said:


> I have a straw cleaning brush--funny thing is, it's made out of plastic!
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-Bottle-Straw-Cleaning-Set/561080624


I'll have to look next time I'm in the store. Last few times I looked they were not there, no space even for them.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I won't use a glass drinking straw either, paranoid, but all I can think about is someone bumping me or getting into a car accident and getting the straw shoved up into the top of my mouth.


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## Country_Guy (Aug 5, 2018)

HDRider said:


> Thank you so much for a very educated view.
> 
> If I may attempt to summarize; You do not see a problem with our current use of plastic, but we are grossly negligent in its disposal. Am I understanding you correctly?
> 
> Again, thanks. I value your insight.


Actually no, I see issues with our use of plastic but I don't see it as eveil in all forms and I also ackknowledge the benefits it provides to society in general. One video of a turtle with a straw up it's nose and people lost their everloving minds. Yet they see starving kids or abused paople on the TV or street everyday and don't say a thing. Screwed up priorites and misplaced outrage. All these people screaming to get rid of all plastics to save the world. How many have ever done something simple as plant a single tree a single bush. How many have ever got out from behind their keyboards of rage to go pick up liter or trash in their own communities? 

Everyone wants stuff cheap so it's put into things so we can go down to the dollar store or Chinamart and buy it and throw it away when it breaks after on or two uses. And because they worry their $2 POS might get stolen on the shelf we shove it in a PVC blister pack. or because we want to hang it on a store shelf we mold a plastic tag to hold it that gets thrown away when it gets home. 

On the straw thing, so as they are eliminated and replaced with paper straws I don't hear people asking where does that paper come from? Where does the petroleum based wax on it come from? Where do those dirty straws go? are they being recycled? I find it much like the electric car argument of how they are supposedly so "green". Now I don't know if people are to lazy, lack the ability to critically think or what that they can't look at the actual environmental impact to build those things. I mean the energy that goes into them to build is insane. Not to mention where is all that electricity coming out of the wall to charge it coming from? Oh and let's just look at the lovely batteries and what goes into them to bring them into existance. Follow the supply chain back upstream to see where each item and component begins, go back to the raw materials that go into them. Let's see how they are mined and developed. 

Personally I believe in buying quality over quantity but there are lots of things out of plastic I don't want to see go away and there are things I'd challenge you as to how you'd make them without plastics. As I said before, if I go to the Dr. I want to know he's using a new and sterile syringe. But yes we are horrible at recycling, its difficult to recycle (at the actual collection and sort facility side) and multi component parts made of different plastics make this more difficult. Then even if it can be done it doesn't make econmic sense as the material ends up costing more than new virgin resin. And with the massive increases in available natural gas the cost of many commodity resins are going to get even cheaper. The Marcellus shale gas is driving the development of a new brownfield site development by Shell of a state of the art, multi billion dollar cracker facility just north of Pittsburgh that will drive costs down even further as it comes on line producing over 100 million tons of material a year. I've read that one or 2 other companies are considering similar, if not larger facilities.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

So we don't have a plastics problem, or it is small potatoes compared to all our other problems. Insightful


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Danaus29 said:


> No credit card, no debit card, no online shopping.
> I'll have to look next time I'm in the store. Last few times I looked they were not there, no space even for them.



I don't like shopping on line but sometimes needs must. Especially living in a wilderness territory. I think that we will be making a lot of decisions and trade-offs in the future - depending on how seriously we take the contamination of the planet which I think will only happen when things get very bad.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Danaus29 said:


> No credit card, no debit card, no online shopping.


Selection of goods available in even large urban areas pretty meager compared to online. Before online, used mail order a lot. When I want a part I dont want to pay some local store to special order it then make two trips to town. I can special order it myself usually at much smaller price and its delivered.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> Selection of goods available in even large urban areas pretty meager compared to online. Before online, used mail order a lot. When I want a part I dont want to pay some local store to special order it then make two trips to town. I can special order it myself usually at much smaller price and its delivered.


And that, in a nutshell, explains why Amazon wins.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

HermitJohn said:


> Selection of goods available in even large urban areas pretty meager compared to online. Before online, used mail order a lot. When I want a part I dont want to pay some local store to special order it then make two trips to town. I can special order it myself usually at much smaller price and its delivered.


But credit cards are made of plastic!


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