# creating pasture land from woods



## paddler (May 13, 2010)

I have a question. right now my job is paying me to look into the logistics of creating some pasture land. I work in a very remote indian reservation. Its all very northern dense woods. i am currently putting together a budget for the operation. I think the idea is to create 80 acres to start with and then expand from there after having learned what we learn. What are people's thoughts on seeding the pasture? i assume that this is a must? has anyone had any experience with creating pasture land from forest? i realize it probably has to start with strategically harvesting most of the timber, then some dozer work getting the stumps up, then plowing it to create a seed bed and then seeding. I am curious about any and all opinions on this operation. thanks all!!


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

This is one of those situations where we really need specific location. "Woods" and climate vary. What would be right for one location may not work in another.


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## paddler (May 13, 2010)

i live in the far northern minnesota. the woods are sub-boreal. it would be considered a zone 3.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

paddler said:


> i live in the far northern minnesota. the woods are sub-boreal. it would be considered a zone 3.


First thing I would do is visit the Pitzen family in the Big Fork/ Effie area. they have been raising cattle in these conditions for years. I haven't seen them in years but they used to raise Highland -Longhorn crosses. I think breed selection will be key in this area. You are going to want rugged self sufficient cattle up there. 

It will take a few years to get things like you want them. Is the intent to totally clear the pastures, or to turn them into woodland meadows?


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

One big consideration would be wolf control, and during calving season bear control. LGDs would be an option, but I would defiantly get more than one, wolves hereabouts have developed a taste for dog. I would install great fences and turn out some Highlands to clear the forest. Once cleared out I would clear the deadwood (firewood) and selectively cut the rest. You might consider managing for maple syrup if there are a lot of maples, a good sap harvest could help the bottom line in your budget. 

Good pine is in demand for lumber. You might want to get a forester involved right away to determine value and best marketing for the trees. You might also want to consider controlled burns after cutting to remove pine needles, I think too many pine needles can hurt grass growth.

If you clear, fence and stock right away I don't think that bull dozing will be necessary, just be aware that until grasses get established that carrying capacity will be low. 

In short I would clear all evergreen species, selectively harvest hardwoods, burn the floor, fence, and get an interseeder and seed grass, (not sure of the best grass types) Get a few head of Highlands out there to control regrowth, and build the herd as the carrying capacity increases. I would plan on generous supplemental feeding for the first few years.


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## paddler (May 13, 2010)

thanks tinknal, thats good advice. we have actually been discussing whether to raise highlands or buffalo. it seems that the buffalo might actually be a bit easier to raise in terms of the climate and wolves. we do have a lot of wolves and i think LGD might actually bring more wolves around. hard to say. 

we have been working with the forestry dept. here on the reservation and they are on board to set up the timber sale however will be best. i was thinking clearing of the majority of the land and then leaving clumps of trees and brush to serve as windbreaks and shelter. i think the idea would be to start with about a doz. animals and put them on 80 acres. we'll supplemental feed hay as much as needed. 

why would you put animals on it right away? i thought it might be best to wait a year and let the seed mix develop? being able to speed the process by a year would be great. 

i appreciate the time you have taken to offer your advice


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## whatrset (Apr 13, 2010)

I like the idea of getting rugged cattle on the land ASAP, but a consideration that may assist you much during the change is the type of hay you plan to feed while you are getting started. Try to feed them hay with the same grass species that you are going to plant. If the hay has any mature seed in it, like so much hay does, the cows will start the preseeding process for you one fertile plop at a time.

I had a neighbor who did this on 120 acres, and by the time he was able to actually get a plow in to work his ground (wetground, poor drainage), he had better than 30% coverage of the lespedeza and bermuda, and crabgrass that he wanted on the pasture.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

paddler said:


> why would you put animals on it right away? i thought it might be best to wait a year and let the seed mix develop? being able to speed the process by a year would be great.
> 
> i appreciate the time you have taken to offer your advice


I guess it depends on the particular area. If it is heavy forest with no undergrowth and no native grasses, yes, wait a year. If there are grassy patches or aspen I would put them out right away. aspen regrowth (as I'm sure you know) is tremendously fast and will occur before any seeding has a chance to get a start. Is it a mixed forest, or more homogeneous, and what species are there?


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## paddler (May 13, 2010)

the actual location of the pasture has not been decided entirely. most likely the area will consist of mixed forest with a strong understory and lots of aspen. i think that grass will come in quickly. its gonna me aspen, birch, some pine, lots of alder. 

do you think a dozen animals would be too many to put on 80 acres with supplemental hay? stocking the animals right away seems has several advantages.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

As long as you are feeding them I think at least a dozen. You are going to want enough to knock down the undergrowth and the regrowth. you might want to cross fence the piece so you can concentrate them in heavy areas or seclude them from fragile areas as the need arises, I can see both being an issue depending on local conditions. Cattle will forage on the leaves of young trees so you will not have to depend on just grass.

You really haven't said if you are planning on cow-calf operation, feeders, etc. 
If you are thinking cow-calf, you could start with a low number of cows and add young feeder cattle in the summer if conditions allow. This would add some flexibility to adjust the herd to pasture conditions. Don't forget to budget and plan for a good set of corrals, working chute, and loading setup.


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## paddler (May 13, 2010)

the purpose of this operation is for subsistence use by the community. We are planning on starting very small but leaving open the possibilities for expansion in the future. Right now we are looking to produce about 10 slaughterable animals a year. The idea is create a sustainable food source, the moose have typically been the major source of animal protein up here but their future is very uncertain and i am pushing this idea as a way of adapting to changing environments. 

Initially this is not being viewed as a business. i would like to sell the animals to community members at prices that cover the cost of production but are very affordable. In the future we want to have the option of expanding this into a business.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

I would really try to get ahold of Howard Pitzen or his sons in Effie. He has been ranching in these conditions for over 50 years.


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## norm (Jun 22, 2010)

If oak trees, and blueberry bushes are present...You might need some lime, or overwhelm it with poo after the trees are gone.

You hardly need to seed grass...it practically grows without my effort.

Throw a minor amount of seed, but enough for the birds to get half.

I'd get a dozen dairy bull calfs, a dairy cow, a jackass, a horse, and a temporary fence. Buy the calfs at auction ahead of time, keep away from all other animals for four days. Get rid of the squirts (sours), with sulmet (about $4/cow) and Feed with bottle for 4 days. When they are 6 to 8 weeks old, they will be prime poo-pers. 
Why the ass? This animal annoys the yotes, which will be looking at calfs as yummy.
Put all animals together in a movable fence, and let the fun begin. 
Intially, buy at least the first large two round bails ($60?).


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

norm said:


> I
> Why the ass? This animal annoys the yotes, which will be looking at calfs as yummy.
> .


Coyotes really aint a problem up there. The timber wolves eat them all...............

I'm guessing the wolves would like a fat young donkey though.


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## anvoj (Feb 1, 2010)

Donkeys will take down a wolf. Is there someone in the community who will see this project through? It's a labor of love.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

anvoj said:


> Donkeys will take down a wolf. Is there someone in the community who will see this project through? It's a labor of love.


"A wolf" is not the problem. They run in packs up there and regularly take down moose.


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## anvoj (Feb 1, 2010)

The donkey goes to bat for the herd. If he spots an intruder in the pasture, he intimidates or attacks. Hopefully the pack gets jittery when the first in gets his head bashed in, and they go away to hunt moose. If the donkey goes down, hopefully he has bought the herd time to circle around the calves. 
Will a donkey be able to stop a really determined pack? Probably not, but if you're going to run cattle in wolf country why not utilize a proven deterrent? Could be LGDs are better, I don't know, but I know donkeys can help cut down on lost calves.


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## tnroadkill (Jul 29, 2009)

i got a donkey to protect goats after one was kill, since i got donkey have had 4 goats killed, find them in pasture of morning little blood but bruising, found out yesterday what was killing goat caught her tryng to kill a nanny the killer =DONKEY only way to stop him, tried to run him away came back got nanny down biting stomp trying to kill her, a 12 gauge birdshot stopped it, she is leaving tomorrow


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## anvoj (Feb 1, 2010)

sorry to hear about your goats. Was the donkey an uncut Jack?


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## tnroadkill (Jul 29, 2009)

a jenny


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## anvoj (Feb 1, 2010)

bummer


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