# Do you tip in restaurants?



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Tipping used to be a gift to waiters for good service and we always tip the standard rate unless the service is poor. Now more and more restaurants are using tips as an income source and it should be illegal IMO. My 16 YO granddaughter got a part time job recently at Pizza Hut. They do pay her minimum wage but all her tips go toward that minimum wage. The other day she worked the lunch period for 2 and 1/2 hours and collected $30.00 in tips, which she has to turn in. They paid her less in wages for that time than she took in in tips. Other restaurants make the waiters put their tips in a pot and divide them equally, sometimes including the cooks. The restaurant itself often gets an equal cut. That does away with the incentive to provide good service IMO.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

I always tip, but know that many places require the 'splitting' of tips, so even if I have to leave 10-15 dollars as a tip, I usually leave it in one dollar bills, letting the server determine (if the place requires it) how much of the full tip they want to turn in.

I have always left a tip, even if the service was par. I don't know what kind of day the server has had or what is going on, so I tend to think the best.

Best service I ever had was at a local Mexican place. I couldn't take two sips from my tea without having someone fill it up. And the food was actually decent.


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

Poppy, I don't think that's legal! They should not be able to decrease what they owe an employee by the gratuity left behind for service. That is why servers get paid so low is that they are able to get gratuity to supplement their income.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Waitresses are often paid far under minimum wage. Employers are not required to pay the standard minimum wage. I know of one Cafe that pays their waitresses nothing. They live off the tips. That might not be legal. But 2 or 3 dollar an hour wage is common.

Letting the cook in on the tips makes him have "some skin in the game" so he'll make extra sure the orders are perfect.

20% is a good tip for good service. No tip or a dollar is a slap in the face.

Bottom line, if the employee doesn't like to put her tips towards minimum wage, don't work there. More and more employers are turning down the screws on their employees, it is a tough economy out there.


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## bajiay (Apr 8, 2008)

I worked at Pizza Hut years ago, like 20, and I was paid $2.19/hr. plus tips that I did not have to turn in. I had a new baby at this time and I only worked weekends, and I would rake in $300-$500 per weekend. It was excellent money for two nights a week. BUT I was courteous, respectful, and I took care of my customers.


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## HeelSpur (May 7, 2011)

I can remember only one time that I didn't leave a tip.
The waitress literally dropped silverware on the table as she walked by.
The food was great but the service was terrible at this dive.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

I always tip -- if service is particularly poor I talk to the manager. Here in Texas the wage for waitstaff is $2.13 an hour, which I think is horrible. The rest come from tips. A friend works as a waitress and is expected to give 10% of her tips to to the kitchen staff, which I think is fair. What I don't like are those places that make the waitstaff pool all their tips and share them equally because, as someone else pointed out, the incentive to do a good job is reduced.


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## preparing (Aug 4, 2011)

Tips aren't really "tips" any longer. They may as well be factored into the cost of the food. 

I imagine the majority of folks that respond to this thread will claim anyone who doesn't leave a tip is denying the waitstaff their just pay since they are paid a subpar wage.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

joseph97297 said:


> Best service I ever had was at a local Mexican place. I couldn't take two sips from my tea without having someone fill it up. And the food was actually decent.


We have a favorite Mexican place where we tip really well. A lot of the people there just live on the tips. And they are such nice people. I love the way the culture caters to children, and treats everyone with such respect and kindness.


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## Ana Bluebird (Dec 8, 2002)

I always tip and generously too. BUT my son had to make some extra money and did home delivery for awhile: his car, his gas, his insurance all for tips and $3.00 an hour. Very few people tipped! He especially had trouble with the churches! Can you believe that???


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## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

This is one of the reasons I don't eat out.

The whole tipping idea seems to be more like bribery these days. I am just not going to participate in the entire ploy.


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

I always give a 20% tip if the service is even adequate, when we eat out. When we lived up in the City, I gave our Pizza delivery man a 20% tip. I give my barber a 20% tip, too. And DSWife tips the lady who does her hair. Hey, I even leave a little tip(not 20%), when we eat at China Buffet. Even though I know it's not necessary.
I think it's a statement of appreciation for the good service. I kinda think generosity is a virtue, I like to practice.


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

The way the laws have been written a server get s paid way lower than minimum wage and tips are expected to help meet that wage then thye should be allowed to keep the rest but it will be taxed! 

For her to have to turn them in and then get paid less than her wage and tips combined is stealing I suggest you contact the local labour board to see what the law is wher eyou live. If the place is taking more than it is entitled to it will do them some god to be "visited" by the local rep.!

I used to have to report my tips for the evening on a sheetsand tunr over th eminimum portion to make up the difference to my minimum wage so they coiuld bank it and use it to "pay" me but I was never required to turn over the rest. If there is a sharing system then all the staff should get together and ask for the written policy and if it is not in there then it is not valid. Sharing should not be done by th eowners but worked out amongst th estaff so they all know what they are collecting and what is being divided.In fact I suggest they do this just to make sure that all monies collected by the owners IS being distributed and not being banked to th e owners advantage.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

When called for I will leave a one penny tip............and let who ever know that the service was more than lousy.......

And yes that socialist "share the wealth" tip sharing should be illegal for the really good service.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

I always tip. 

The "cash minimum wage for tipped employees" is $2.13 per hour. The "maximum tip against credit minimum wage" is $5.12 per hour. The "basic combined cash & tip minimum wage rate" is $7.25 per hour.

I always tip 20% if they are at least adequate. If there is any question, I tip less and talk to the manager.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

I think what they are doing with your granddaughter should be illegal. 

Yes I tip according to service. I dont like that they pay servers min wage or less, and then expect the public to make up for the rest of their salary. 

Ive been in a few tip pools. It can be nice, real nice, if everyone is dedicated and working toward the goal- the goal of giving the best to get the best in tips.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

I also tip. And one particular restaurant I visit once in awhile there are 2 waitresses that have been there for OVER 35 YEARS~! THEY are not making minimum wage I can guarantee you THAT.
I was in AZ. for 10 years came back here went to that restaurant and the one that I am talking about STILL remember me not only that BUT remembered what I uasally ordered~!~! THAT is a Good waitress.
And THAT is a good restaurant for treating its workers like that, or they would NOT be still there.


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## kimmom2five (Apr 19, 2009)

We are good tippers but I guess we don't look like it because we often get very bad service compared to other customers around us.
One time we did leave a penny tip. It was just my husband and I before we had kids. We went to a Chinese buffet late one evening after I got out of my college class. There were no customers besides us except for one policeman. The waitress completely ignored us and talked to the policeman. We didn't even get our drinks until we were on our second plates of food. When we left we put a penny tail side up on the table as her tip. When we were getting in our car she came out and threw the penny at us! We had eaten there often before that but we never went back.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Only one time I did not leave a tip and that was when the server took my order and then I never saw them again. Someone else brought our food, no one ever checked on us during the meal and we had to go up to the register and ask for our bill.

Tip sharing is a socialist concept and no server that's good would put up with it for long.


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## New Mexican (Jul 12, 2004)

WE have friend in Australia and the "tips" are included in their wages. I like that! When they come here, they roll their eyes at our "tipping" policies.

And beware! When you have a larger party where they add the tip to your bill, they add it on AFTER the tax...which is illegal! One time we caught someone doing that, and we made them refund our 15 cents! yep! Us and another couple showed the manager how wrong their cash register programming is!

Hey, they are getting MORE than they should.


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

I always do tip but I agree 100% with what you said Poppy.

:clap:


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

kimmom2five said:


> We are good tippers but I guess we don't look like it because we often get very bad service compared to other customers around us.
> One time we did leave a penny tip. It was just my husband and I before we had kids. We went to a Chinese buffet late one evening after I got out of my college class. There were no customers besides us except for one policeman. The waitress completely ignored us and talked to the policeman. We didn't even get our drinks until we were on our second plates of food. When we left we put a penny tail side up on the table as her tip. When we were getting in our car she came out and threw the penny at us! We had eaten there often before that but we never went back.


That reminds me of a time I went to a Chinese buffett with an eccentric friend of mine. Its an okay place food and service wise, but nothing outstanding or special. 
This night we got some particularly bad service, even by that places standard's. My friend left an exorbitant tip. Like $50 for a $20 dollar ticket. I asked him why in the world would is he doing that. He said, well in Chinese, its considered a very mean insult. Like you are just so wonderful and good and did such a good job, you really deserve a tip above and beyond.
I think it worked, I know the owner was watching, and I never saw that waitress there again. The service was bad.


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## trulytricia (Oct 11, 2002)

Yes I would tip in a restaurant because that is what is expected.

But I really hate the whole tipping system because I don't have much money anymore haha.And I do stay out of restaurants for that reason.


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

In the small establishments I occasionally go to many are run by the owners. I do not tip owners. they are making a profit on what I buy and have control on pricing. Hired help gets tipped. Buffets always baffle me. Is bringing a glass of water worth a 20% tip?

I hate the system. Pay hired help a decent wage, raise the menu prices if required. Don't expect a tip for adequate service, that is what you were hired for and what you get paid to do. Alas that is not the way it is.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

My problem is mathematical brain farts. I have the hardest time trying to figure out 15 or 20 percent; I know, piece of cake, right? Not for those of us who are mathematically challenged. :shrug: I don't have a tip calculator handy, but should donwload an app onto my always present smartphone.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

trulytricia said:


> Yes I would tip in a restaurant because that is what is expected.


I don't tip just because it's expected. If I feel really good about service then I'll tip, but otherwise I don't. I get criticized for that attitude a lot here in Las Vegas, but that's how I feel about it.

I don't like the argument that I should always tip because waiters are low-paid and depend on tips to make a decent living. Waiters deserve to make a decent living, but it's not my place to provide that living. Why should it be my place to make up the difference when employers don't pay their workers a fair wage?


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## whodunit (Mar 29, 2004)

One time I had lunch with a visiting friend of mine at a place I used to frequent. The service was notoriously slow and this visit was no exception. At the end my friend, who paid, left a one penny tip...on his credit card! The waitress saw it and loudly said, "Really?" as we walked out the door.

I typically tip well, but I better not have to beg for service during my meal.

Another story- one time DW, my four DDs and I went to a local steakhouse for lunch. It was a bit pricey but generally had good food.

We walked in and the place was dead, yet we had to stand around and wait for someone to greet us.

Finally, we were seated at a booth table that was raised off the floor, so a high chair (which was never even offered) wouldn't work because it would be lower.

The server brought us full large glasses of water for everyone including the small children. We were positive we would have to build an ark by the end of the meal.

The server then disappeared as we sat at looked at the menu, then sat and sat and sat...

I finally asked DW if she wanted to go across the street and visit our favorite Chinese restaurant instead. She told me that she didn't think we could leave now, but we hadn't ordered anything. She agreed and we left. This was probably $40-50 or more walking out the door.

The server caught us leaving and asked if there was a problem. We told her that we didn't like waiting and she asked if we were in a hurry or something. I just politely told her that we didn't feel like waiting.

When we got the Chinese restaurant, there was someone with menus in hand at the door (they typically watch the parking lot).

Within literally minutes we had ordered and had piping hot food at out table.

To top it off, the owner, with whom I was acquainted, came out and greeted us, then took half price off the meal for Chinese New Year!!!


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## DavidUnderwood (Jul 5, 2007)

If you can't afford a tip, you can't afford to
eat out. It is what it is. But no tip for chittie
service.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

I dont use any buisiness that expects tipping. Either pay your help a fair wage or go bankrupt! Buisness should not be a charity. 

Seriously unless I was starving with absolutely no other way to get food, I wouldnt enter a restaurant that wants me to pay their help on the side then tries to steal some of that. Pay your help $15 or $20 an hour and forget the tipping. Raise your prices to cover your costs. Still going to be same sort of cost for most customers, but without the playacting. Most high end restaurants are already priced to cover very nice worker wages and benefits, but they want it all for themselves. Those workers that say they make more off tips than fair wages can go beg someplace else. I say earn a fair wage for work performed, not beg from customers. Begging of customers by employees belittles us all.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

DavidUnderwood said:


> If you can't afford a tip, you can't afford to
> eat out. It is what it is. But no tip for chittie
> service.


Not my job as customer to reward/punish the employees. I judge the buisiness on service I get, their problem if are too cheap to pay their help. Lousy service, I will never darken their doorstep again. Losing buisiness means in future maybe they will be more careful who they hire and pay enough to get decent help. Or they will go bankrupt.


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

poppy said:


> Tipping used to be a gift to waiters for good service and we always tip the standard rate unless the service is poor. Now more and more restaurants are using tips as an income source and it should be illegal IMO. My 16 YO granddaughter got a part time job recently at Pizza Hut. They do pay her minimum wage but all her tips go toward that minimum wage. The other day she worked the lunch period for 2 and 1/2 hours and collected $30.00 in tips, which she has to turn in. *They paid her less in wages for that time than she took in in tips*. Other restaurants make the waiters put their tips in a pot and divide them equally, sometimes including the cooks. The restaurant itself often gets an equal cut. That does away with the incentive to provide good service IMO.


Poppy, where is this happening? 

Here is the relevant info for New York State - 

New York State Tip Law for Food/Hospitality Workers â UPDATE | Food Court



> A âservice chargeâ or fixed gratuity belongs to the waitstaff.
> 
> Section 196(d) of the *New York Labor Law provides that an employer or his agent cannot accept âany part of the gratuities, received by an employee, or retain any part of a gratuity or of any charge purported to be a gratuity for an employee.â * The New York courts have interpreted this provision to mean that a restaurant cannot add a âservice chargeâ or gratuity to the bill without passing it on to the waitstaff. However, if the restaurant clearly conveys to the customer that the charge is not going to the waitstaff (e.g., by referring to it as an âadministrative feeâ) then the restaurant is allowed to keep all or a portion of the charge, but not any additional amount the customer intends for the waitstaff.


If your state laws are similar, you probably have grounds for a law suit.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Nevada said:


> I don't tip just because it's expected. If I feel really good about service then I'll tip, but otherwise I don't. I get criticized for that attitude a lot here in Las Vegas, but that's how I feel about it.
> 
> I don't like the argument that I should always tip because waiters are low-paid and depend on tips to make a decent living. Waiters deserve to make a decent living, but it's not my place to provide that living. Why should it be my place to make up the difference when employers don't pay their workers a fair wage?


Thats the way I feel about it. Its the owners business, its up top him/her to
provide a decent wage in the first place.


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

HermitJohn said:


> I dont use any buisiness that expects tipping. Either pay your help a fair wage or go bankrupt! Buisness should not be a charity.
> 
> Seriously unless I was starving with absolutely no other way to get food, I wouldnt enter a restaurant that wants me to pay their help on the side then tries to steal some of that. Pay your help $15 or $20 an hour and forget the tipping. Raise your prices to cover your costs. Still going to be same sort of cost for most customers, but without the playacting. Most high end restaurants are already priced to cover very nice worker wages and benefits, but they want it all for themselves. Those workers that say they make more off tips than fair wages can go beg someplace else. I say earn a fair wage for work performed, not beg from customers. Begging of customers by employees belittles us all.


Yep, leftists are usually cheap SOBs when it comes to their own money.


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## CountryWannabe (May 31, 2004)

I do tip, and well - usually 20-25%, but I have to confess that there are times when I resent it. Myself, my daughter and two grand daughters (13 & 18) recently went to a Mexican franchise. The food was good but the waiter was almost rude in his fawning over Ms 18yo and ignoring the rest of us. I had to ask for a salad dressing, ask for the guacamole that was supposed to come with my meal, and ask three times for a tea refill. I left a paltry tip and he glared, so I just told him "When serving, you should probably try to figure out who is going to be paying the bill and your tip". I am sure he probably didn't "get it" but at least he got paid what he was worth on that occasion.

Mary


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

Absolutely I tip. We rarely go out but if we do I make sure I have 20 to 25% to tip with. That goes for hairdressers to. Eons ago, I used to be one of those ladies giving you the best service possible. Believe me, some patrons can be rude, vulgar and looking to find something wrong...you will if you look hard enough. I didn't complain if I didn't receive a tip...that is an extra...it isn't a given. The polite, wonderful folks were the ones who more than made up for the folks who were not  I always shared with busboys/girls and cooks, they are the ones who helped me shine.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

We seldom go out to eat, but when we do we tip. 15% for acceptable service, which I can't remember the last time we didn't get at least acceptable service. 20% or even a little more for really good service.

I don't remember exactly how far back it was, but the IRS put the squeeze on servers for tips. They have always made low pay because it was assumed there would be tips, and it used to be that those tips were just between the server and the IRS. 

But heaven forbid a server makes a few bucks tax free so all the rules were tightened up. At a lot of places, the server gets paid way less than minimum wage but then has tax withheld from their check as if all their tables tipped them 15%. And that's also the time when child care providers had to give a tax ID for child care to be deductible for the one who hires them. 'Cuz you know those were the two biggest tax cheats in America - the waitresses and babysitters.


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

MO_Cows, you are right on target. Childcare providers and waitresses are just rolling in dough...not. But we dare not look too closely at CEO's, etc. because they really need their moneygre:


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Last I heard $2.50 - 4.50 was the going rate for waitresses because they got tips. That is ridiculous and we should absolutely leave a generous tip if they do their jobs well. 
I know one restaurant where they make the waitresses turn in their tips and then they divide them between all of the waitresses and cooks. That is just not right. Think about it next time you go out to eat. If they do good do good for them. Who knows? It may mean the difference between a single mom getting to grab a gallon of milk and bologna for her children or them going to bed with only water.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

poppy said:


> Tipping used to be a gift to waiters for good service and we always tip the standard rate unless the service is poor. Now more and more restaurants are using tips as an income source and it should be illegal IMO. My 16 YO granddaughter got a part time job recently at Pizza Hut. They do pay her minimum wage but all her tips go toward that minimum wage. The other day she worked the lunch period for 2 and 1/2 hours and collected $30.00 in tips, which she has to turn in. They paid her less in wages for that time than she took in in tips. Other restaurants make the waiters put their tips in a pot and divide them equally, sometimes including the cooks. The restaurant itself often gets an equal cut. That does away with the incentive to provide good service IMO.


I started working as a waitress when I was 14 yrs old.  They payed below minimum wages even back them expecting the difference to be made up in tips. Although I did get to keep all of my tips and didn't have to let anyone know how much I made in tips.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Steve L. said:


> Poppy, where is this happening?
> 
> Here is the relevant info for New York State -
> 
> ...


I know this happens but I am at a loss about how it is legal for anyone to take the tips and then pay her minimum wage and if the tips equal more than minimum wage where does it go? How would it be legal for them to keep it? I sure think a lot of folks wouldn't eat there if they knew that was happening or maybe we should just be more careful to quietly hand the tip to the server.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Hermit John I just read what you posted. What if that is the only job they are able to get? We tell people they need to do what they need to do to get by until they can find something different. Don't blame the worker.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

What if the only job you could get was selling illegal drugs on a street corner? Things dont change unless somebody resists the status quo. If any restaurant or waiter person is dependent on me as a regular customer, they already lost the battle. At best I might eat out once in a very blue moon.

If restaurant owner finally gets that nobody will patronize his buisiness as is, he will change or go under. If you are a worker bee in such an environment then I guess your job is whats called collateral damage resulting from having a stupid boss. if there is sufficient demand for a restaurant then another will arise from the ashes.


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> I know this happens but *I am at a loss about how it is legal* for anyone to take the tips and then pay her minimum wage and if the tips equal more than minimum wage where does it go? How would it be legal for them to keep it? I sure think a lot of folks wouldn't eat there if they knew that was happening or maybe we should just be more careful to quietly hand the tip to the server.


In New York State, it's *not *legal. Some restaurant operators are thieves.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Nevada said:


> I don't like the argument that I should always tip because waiters are low-paid and depend on tips to make a decent living. Waiters deserve to make a decent living, but it's not my place to provide that living. Why should it be my place to make up the difference when employers don't pay their workers a fair wage?


You'll pay for it one way or another - either in tips or in raised prices. At least with TIPs a good server can make a decent living as opposed to just getting by.


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

You can always tell the people who never worked for tips because they are stingy tippers.

I supported myself through college and law school summers by waitressing jobs in bars, nice restaurants, and everything in between. During the summers I would work two jobs as most places wouldn't give you any more than part time. I'd work 70 hour weeks because 30-35 hour weeks just weren't going to cut it. After that last summer, I swore I would have to be starving and in danger of being kicked out on the street before I would ever take another waitressing job. It's *very* hard work, requiring a lot of stamina and smarts, with very little appreciation from either the owners or the customers. You have to endure all sorts of abuse with a smile on your face and an upbeat attitude. 

If a wait person gives bad service, by all means, skimp on the tip. My background makes me kinda picky about the level of service I get because I know exactly what the job entails. However, my background also taught me that there are people who seem to think they can 'save' money on a night out by finding some way or reason not to tip that seldom has anthing to do with the service they got. 

I even had a lot of scammers who would eat an entire meal, with good service throughout, then call the manager over to complain about to food to get comped. They thought that getting comped meant they could leave a zero or reduced tip even if the reason they were comped had nothing to do with service.

I could go on for days with horrible customer stories...don't even get me started on the all parents who would let their children go crazy and smirk at me and, as they left, say something like 'glad I don't have to clean it up' leaving a mess that required four waiters a half hour to clean up. 

Parents of small children were the cheapest and worst -- with old ladies at lunch a close second...but I could at least forgive the old ladies for being cheap because they actually thought they were leaving a good tip. Believe it or not, college students were the best tippers with rich couples coming in not far behind. (rich guys dining alone were often as cheap as the little old ladies unless you flirted a lot)

(obviously, the length of my reply shows this topic has touched a nerve.)


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Waiters deserve to make a decent living, but *it's not my place to provide* that living. *Why should it be my place* to make up the difference when employers don't pay their workers a fair wage?


And yet you favor Obamacare............


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

beccachow said:


> My problem is mathematical brain farts. I have the hardest time trying to figure out 15 or 20 percent; I know, piece of cake, right? Not for those of us who are mathematically challenged. :shrug: I don't have a tip calculator handy, but should donwload an app onto my always present smartphone.


I usually tip 15 percent and the best way to figure that out is to look at your total bill and in your head move the decimal point over to the left one number and that would be 10 percent. Then divide that 10 percent figure and add half back to the 10 percent. Say for instant the ticket comes out to $40.00 . Move the decimal over one and it is now $4.000, which would be $4. Now divide that in half and it comes out to $2. Add the $2 back to the $4., and you have a 15% total of $6. to tip the waiter/waitress with.


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

I tip and my tips will also depend on the service I receive. Most usually I tip 15% if I'm by myself. But if I got my whole family with me and the waiter/waitress has to do a lot of service for us, and does a good job, then I might increase the amount somewhat. 

If I'm at a self serve buffet type, I only tip 10 percent. Why should I tip more if all she's gonna do is just refill my glass of water.

If they give me somewhat of a bad service I might only tip 10 percent or less. If it's really bad, I will give them a verbal tip. Then I will go complain to the manager. 

I've only had to do that twice. Once when the waitress kept reminding us to tip and how much throughout our whole time there and once when a waiter kept telling me that my bowl of gravy was the stuffing mentioned in the menue when I ordered turkey and stuffing. No stuffing, no money tip! The manager did offer to either fix me a bowl of stuffing to take with me or a discount on the order cause the meal does come with stuffing. I took the discount! She, the manager, headed toward the back to talk to a certan waiter. 

The last time I was in a resturant which was about 3 weeks ago, I took notice of how many tables my waitress was responsible for and I figured if she got at least $5 for each table during the lunch hour period when it's the most full, then she would be making a purty good chunk of money. I think I counted about 6 tables she was at and if every table only had attendants for 30 minutes at a time then that would be approximately 12 tips in a hours time. $5 times 12 would come out to approximatey $60 for the lunch rush. Of course theirs many factors to figure in. Probably a few Hermit Johns came in during that lunch hour. Also, the rest of the hours she worked probably wasn't so busy.


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## Kazahleenah (Nov 3, 2004)

Nevada said:


> Waiters deserve to make a decent living, but it's not my place to provide that living. Why should it be my place to make up the difference when employers don't pay their workers a fair wage?


It's not. 
Stay home and cook for yourself, serve yourself, then clean up and do your own dishes. :clap:


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Kazahleenah said:


> It's not.
> Stay home and cook for yourself, serve yourself, then clean up and do your own dishes. :clap:


I do, restaurant eating is a LUXURY! And usually a very disappointing one, what with the desperate staff all begging cause their employer wont pay them. And the owner buying cheapest frozen industrial garbage to be warmed over rather than hiring a real cook.

Its a very poor model of how to run a buisiness.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> And yet you favor Obamacare............


So you are saying restaurant owners are forced to require customers to pay their employees' wages separately from the food charges because of Obamacare.

Wow. Think you strained yourself on that stretch....


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## DavidUnderwood (Jul 5, 2007)

Hermit, you know how that system works.
If you don't like it, stay home. Nobody will
care and you will not bankrupt anyone.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

poppy said:


> Tipping used to be a gift to waiters for good service and we always tip the standard rate unless the service is poor. Now more and more restaurants are using tips as an income source and it should be illegal IMO. My 16 YO granddaughter got a part time job recently at Pizza Hut. They do pay her minimum wage but all her tips go toward that minimum wage. The other day she worked the lunch period for 2 and 1/2 hours and collected $30.00 in tips, which she has to turn in. They paid her less in wages for that time than she took in in tips. Other restaurants make the waiters put their tips in a pot and divide them equally, sometimes including the cooks. The restaurant itself often gets an equal cut. That does away with the incentive to provide good service IMO.


Server's wage 2.13 an hour plus tips.
Average tip for great service is 20% of the total bill BEFORE coupons, discounts, and comps.
IF the guest feels that the server has only earned a 10% or LESS gratuity, then he should go see a manager, as this is unacceptable.

Locally owned restaurants, servers will tip out 10% of their total tips to the busser and the bartender 
(So if the makes 100.00 in tips, 10.00 goes to the bar, and 10.00 goes to the busser. This means the server walks with 80.00)

Corporate takes 3-5% of the servers TOTAL SALES, and divide that up amongst the bartender/food runner/busser. 
This is a BS way of doing the tip out because if the server gets 'cheap people' who tip like carp, she STILL has to tip out based upon her sales, not actual tips. 
That's one big reason I did not work corporate.

Servers credit card tips are automatically reported.
Servers have the option of claiming cash tips at the end of the night.
Honest servers claim every penny they make. Why?
If you must go on disability, it's based upon your income. If you don't claim your cash, then you are screwed.
If you are trying to obtain a mortgage, and you do not claim your cash....you W2 only shows how much you made in CC tips.....and the mortgage lender doesn't care what you bank statement says. He wants to see it on a W2.
Servers need to keep a 'tip book'. How much they made, minus the tip out (and break it down Busser Joe 10.00, Bartender Sally 10.00). 
If you get allocated tips, this will save your butt. 
If you get audited, this will save your butt.
Servers who make 2.13 an hour, work 20 hours a week, claim 300.00 in tips?
Yeah, their pay check is a ZERO check. 
Why?
2.13 x 20 hours=42.60 - taxes on the 42.60 + taxes on the 300.00 in claimed tips.
Leaves you with a ZERO pay check because the ENTIRE 42.60 is ATE UP IN TAXES.
I went 8 years without getting "a paycheck'.....yeah they gave me the paper, but it shows VOID. 
Because it's worth nothing.

If you want table service, you should be ready to tip 20% of your total bill.

*If you don't want to tip,* go to places that have drive through windows and counter service.

*If you want table service and don't want to tip, let your server know up front so she can spend more time caring for the guests that ARE going to tip.*

(It has been MY personal experience that 7 out of 10 times the person who 'runs your arce off, drinks water/tea like a camel, constantly 'needs something'/ moans about the food / and in general demands a lot of your time 'catering' to them...........they are the WORST tippers. Demand servant type service, and don't tip. Act like they are the only customers in the place, and don't tip. You can usually spot the 'I want EXCELLENT 30% gratuity worthy service FOR FREE a mile away)

Worked this business for 30 years....love love loved it.
Made amazing great money.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> What if the only job you could get was selling illegal drugs on a street corner? Things dont change unless somebody resists the status quo. If any restaurant or waiter person is dependent on me as a regular customer, they already lost the battle. At best I might eat out once in a very blue moon.
> 
> If restaurant owner finally gets that nobody will patronize his buisiness as is, he will change or go under. If you are a worker bee in such an environment then I guess your job is whats called collateral damage resulting from having a stupid boss. if there is sufficient demand for a restaurant then another will arise from the ashes.


Not even close to the same thing. If I needed to feed my family I would look for a "legal" way to make the money while I continued my job search.


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## Trixters_muse (Jan 29, 2008)

I don't mind tipping, working as a waitress is how I got through college so I know how tough it can be. My problem is with places that automatically add as much as 33% to your bill, forcing you to tip for what may or may not be good service. 

If I get great service I give a great tip, if the service is bad I ask for the manager and inform them I will give a tip but the service did not warrant a generous one. I do not want a big gratuity added to my bill if the service I received was not worth 33%.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Just had to share a story from the other evening. My DH and I went out to eat at a pretty nice restaurant where the servers are always very good. We were sitting behind a couple with a small child at the next table. The waiter came up to that table and asked if everything was ok and then out of the blue and very loudly the lady said....NO! my guacamole was too hot and the fajhitas were horrible. The waiter apologized and went to get the manager. I felt sorry for him as the place was full of folks. The manager came out and guess what was said... quietly and not like the woman did it. 

Maaam....this is the 4th time you have come in and complained and each time gets louder. You always order the same thing and I see that you finished your plate and the guacamole dish is empty like each time. If the food is really that bad, why don't you send it back when you first taste it? Why do you keep returning? ... Once again we will not have you pay for your dinner but...we can't afford to keep you as a customer so we ask that you find a restaurant that suits your taste better. 

I know people do this for free food all the time. These are the things our waiters and waitresses deal with on a normal basis.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

grandma12703 said:


> Just had to share a story from the other evening. My DH and I went out to eat at a pretty nice restaurant where the servers are always very good. We were sitting behind a couple with a small child at the next table. The waiter came up to that table and asked if everything was ok and then out of the blue and very loudly the lady said....NO! my guacamole was too hot and the fajhitas were horrible. The waiter apologized and went to get the manager. I felt sorry for him as the place was full of folks. The manager came out and guess what was said... quietly and not like the woman did it.
> 
> Maaam....this is the 4th time you have come in and complained and each time gets louder. You always order the same thing and I see that you finished your plate and the guacamole dish is empty like each time. If the food is really that bad, why don't you send it back when you first taste it? Why do you keep returning? ... Once again we will not have you pay for your dinner but...we can't afford to keep you as a customer so we ask that you find a restaurant that suits your taste better.
> 
> I know people do this for free food all the time. These are the things our waiters and waitresses deal with on a normal basis.


Yep.
My old boss threw a woman out of his place because she did the SAME THING.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

> If you want table service, you should be ready to tip 20% of your total bill.
> 
> If you don't want to tip, go to places that have drive through windows and counter service.


That is basically the way I do it. I have worked for tips too. I just dont think its right for an employer to throw the burden of paying his workers on the public in that manner.

But if I go into a place where they are working for tips I do tip.


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## Kazahleenah (Nov 3, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> *If you don't want to tip,* go to places that have drive through windows and counter service.
> 
> *If you want table service and don't want to tip, let your server know up front so she can spend more time caring for the guests that ARE going to tip.*
> 
> (It has been MY personal experience that 7 out of 10 times the person who 'runs your arce off, drinks water/tea like a camel, constantly 'needs something'/ moans about the food / and in general demands a lot of your time 'catering' to them...........they are the WORST tippers. Demand servant type service, and don't tip. Act like they are the only customers in the place, and don't tip. You can usually spot the 'I want EXCELLENT 30% gratuity worthy service FOR FREE a mile away)


EXACTLY!!!!!! :grumble:


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I guess I just figure a tip as part of the price I pay for eating out. With full time work, homeschooling, free lancing on the side, hobby farm animal care, and all the housework to boot, I just appreciate going out once in a while and letting someone else cook and clean up the dishes afterwards. Kind of like if I take DD to a movie, I might as well count on her having to get popcorn as well, so need to add that into my estimated price for the treat.

DOn't wanna tip, still want to eat out, try McD's. 

i find that some places now add the tip in automatically to the price of the bill...that gripes my cookies. Now I am paying the same tip no matter what level of service I get.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Kazahleenah said:


> It's not.
> Stay home and cook for yourself, serve yourself, then clean up and do your own dishes. :clap:


It's not that simple. A lot of the time I eat out it's on the casino. The free meals aren't really a gift, since it's paid for by gambling. But I'm still eating as a guest of the casino.

It's not really fair for the casino to invite me to dinner then expect me to tip the waiter regardless of level of service. When you invite people to dinner at your house do you expect your guests to tip your wife?

And I NEVER tip dealers. It makes no sense. If the dealer gave me what I asked for, as it done in restaurants, then I would be happy to tip. I would go to a roulette wheel and pile chips on the number 15, then tell the dealer "I would like a 15, please." If he delivered 15 then I would be happy to kick him a few bucks. But if the dealer altered the game to give me what I asked for he would be breaking the law. In fact, we would both be breaking the law, since we would be conspiring to defraud the casino.


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

Nevada said:


> It's not that simple. A lot of the time I eat out it's on the casino. The free meals aren't really a gift, since it's paid for by gambling. But I'm still eating as a guest of the casino.
> 
> It's not really fair for the casino to invite me to dinner then expect me to tip the waiter regardless of level of service. When you invite people to dinner at your house do you expect your guests to tip your wife?
> 
> And I NEVER tip dealers. It makes no sense. If the dealer gave me what I asked for, as it done in restaurants, then I would be happy to tip. I would go to a roulette wheel and pile chips on the number 15, then tell the dealer "I would like a 15, please." If he delivered 15 then I would be happy to kick him a few bucks. But if the dealer altered the game to give me what I asked for he would be breaking the law. In fact, we would both be breaking the law, since we would be conspiring to defraud the casino.


Not really. If I'm invited to some one's house for dinner, I will bring dessert and help with clearing/dishes etc. I'm an appreciative guest.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Just admit it Nevada-- you're a cheapskate. You want service but you're not willing to pay for it. :smack

You think someone else should pay for it for you.

One way or another you will pay: in higher prices, lower odds in the casino, or in TIPS. I prefer TIPS because I can reward a good server and conversely encourage a poor server to get into another line of work. Everyone wins by Tipping, only the owners win any other way, and Casino owners already make enough money in my opinion.


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## Tobster (Feb 24, 2009)

Nevada said:


> And I NEVER tip dealers. It makes no sense. If the dealer gave me what I asked for, as it done in restaurants, then I would be happy to tip.


You never tip dealers, however you would tip the dealer if they gave you a winning hand. Are we to conclude you lose 100% of the time?


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

"And I NEVER tip dealers. It makes no sense. If the dealer gave me what I asked for, as it done in restaurants, then I would be happy to tip. " Quote.

But I thought you didn't tip, period. So you would tip a dealer for good service but not a waitress for good service?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mnn2501 said:


> Just admit it Nevada-- you're a cheapskate.


Oh, I've never pretended otherwise. I'm the biggest coupon-clipping cheapskate in LasVegas, and I'm not a bit ashamed to say so. In fact I'm a regular contributor to a Las Vegas forum where cheapskates like me compare notes on where to find the best deals. Stay cheap, each cheap, and gamble smart; that's what living in Las Vegas is all about.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

The ONCE a year Dh and I go out to eat (on our aniversary) we tip.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

homefire2007 said:


> But I thought you didn't tip, period. So you would tip a dealer for good service but not a waitress for good service?


Actually, I didn't say that at all. I said I tip waiters for outstanding service. I just resent being expected to tip for ordinary or sub-standard service.

When I go out with my significant other I let her decide on the tip. At the end of the meal I give her a fair tip based on percentage of the bill, then let her decide if she wants to keep it or leave some or all of it for the waiter. It's always interesting to hear her evaluation of service when the money is in her hand. Either way, my conscience is clear.


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

Thanks for clearing that up :0 Glad you can sleep at night.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Tobster said:


> You never tip dealers, however you would tip the dealer if they gave you a winning hand. Are we to conclude you lose 100% of the time?


No, I don't tip for a winning hand. That's different from asking for a particular result and getting it, such as asking "May I have an 8 of spades?" But I would never ask for a result, since I would never want to give the appearance of collusion between myself and the dealer.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

DavidUnderwood said:


> Hermit, you know how that system works.
> If you don't like it, stay home. Nobody will
> care and you will not bankrupt anyone.


Its a free country, I get to complain just like everybody else. Dont like, well too bad, move to where complaining isnt allowed. I dont like the gratuity based economic system and i get to not only boycott it, I get to tell the world of its evil (or at least anybody bored enough to read my posts.)

And if you havent figured it out, I dont call myself HermitJohn for no reason. Being by myself, eating my own cooking isnt exactly a punishment. Its a chosen lifestyle.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> Its a free country, I get to complain just like everybody else. Dont like, well too bad, move to where complaining isnt allowed. I dont like the gratuity based economic system and i get to not only boycott it, I get to tell the world of its evil (or at least anybody bored enough to read my posts.)
> 
> And if you havent figured it out, I dont call myself HermitJohn for no reason. Being by myself, eating my own cooking isnt exactly a punishment. Its a chosen lifestyle.


Hermit, I may not agree with you often but you are absolutely correct in that you have as much right as the rest of us to express your opinion. 

My biggest issue with how you feel about this is that you are punishing the single mom/college student/grandma or whomever for the sins of the business owner. They are just trying to get by.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

mnn2501 said:


> Just admit it Nevada-- you're a cheapskate. You want service but you're not willing to pay for it. :smack
> 
> You think someone else should pay for it for you.
> 
> One way or another you will pay: in higher prices, lower odds in the casino, or in TIPS. I prefer TIPS because I can reward a good server and conversely encourage a poor server to get into another line of work. Everyone wins by Tipping, only the owners win any other way, and Casino owners already make enough money in my opinion.


I'm a cheapskate too, but I still tip. If I can dig up enough to go to dinner, I can dig up another $3.00 for a tip on a $20.00 meal. (we always eat out cheap)


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

homefire2007 said:


> Thanks for clearing that up :0 Glad you can sleep at night.


Nobody tips me. Why do waiters deserve to be tipped but I don't? The rest of the world seems to sleep fine for not tipping me.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> I'm a cheapskate too, but I still tip. If I can dig up enough to go to dinner, I can dig up another $3.00 for a tip on a $20.00 meal. (we always eat out cheap)


$20? You should be ashamed of yourself! If I can't dig-up a 2for1 coupon so two of us can eat out for under $10, we're eating at home.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Nevada said:


> $20? You should be ashamed of yourself! If I can't dig-up a 2for1 coupon so two of us can eat out for under $10, we're eating at home.


Well, it's for 2 of us. LOL Maybe you should let me in on the secret of where you get 2 for 1 under $10.00. I mean we can do it but it isn't what I call a meal. We have used dollar menu's on trips, etc.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> Well, it's for 2 of us. LOL Maybe you should let me in on the secret of where you get 2 for 1 under $10.00. I mean we can do it but it isn't what I call a meal. We have used dollar menu's on trips, etc.


It's a Las Vegas thing. It's a combination of paying attention to where the specials are and acquiring premium coupons. These days you pretty much have to buy premium coupons from either the American Casino Guide or the Las Vegas Adviser. Also, when I go to a hotel for a few nights I try to find one with a generous funbook that has meal 2fers.

Sometimes I go over $10 for the two of us if the deal is right. The Eastside Cannery has $7 dinner buffet specials on Tuesdays & Sundays, which I do sometimes. $14 for two still isn't bad, and that includes drinks.

For people who live out of state there are the printable Fremont Street coupons, which has 2for1 coupons at both Fremont Hotel & Main Street Station buffets. Go to the link below, enter your email address, then use realvegas for a password.

Fremont Street Experience Coupons

Magnolias at Four Queens is pretty good too, and there's also a 2fer. I eat there all the time.


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## Fonzie (Nov 5, 2003)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Yep.
> My old boss threw a woman out of his place because she did the SAME THING.


The above reminds me of when I worked at an family owned Italian deli when I was a kid.
The owner was an old school Italian from Taylor street in Chicago [for those who know}.
Anyways, he had a policy of giving uniformed police officers a 50% discount {for obvious reasons}.
Well, one day this cop comes in wearing street clothes and places a gigantic order with all the extras, I mean like 8 or 10 of our giant subs,sides etc. The cop loudly "demanded" his 50% discount from me, I asked him if he was on duty and he said no he was having a party. I decided to ask the owner if it was ok to give such a large discount...After I explained the circumstances to the owner he went into a fury. He lit into this cop like nobody's business, called him many choice words, the nicest of which was jackass. I had never seen anybody talk to a cop that way before...the poor guy left with his tail between his legs never to return. The next day other cops came in to apologize for their co-workers behavior.
The nerve of some people...

.


.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Yep I tip
20 percent if the service is great
15 percent if it is "average"
10 percent if the service is "ok"
nothing beyond that.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Fonzie said:


> The above reminds me of when I worked at an family owned Italian deli when I was a kid.
> The owner was an old school Italian from Taylor street in Chicago [for those who know}.
> Anyways, he had a policy of giving uniformed police officers a 50% discount {for obvious reasons}.
> Well, one day this cop comes in wearing street clothes and places a gigantic order with all the extras, I mean like 8 or 10 of our giant subs,sides etc. The cop loudly "demanded" his 50% discount from me, I asked him if he was on duty and he said no he was having a party. I decided to ask the owner if it was ok to give such a large discount...After I explained the circumstances to the owner he went into a fury. He lit into this cop like nobody's business, called him many choice words, the nicest of which was jackass. I had never seen anybody talk to a cop that way before...the poor guy left with his tail between his legs never to return. The next day other cops came in to apologize for their co-workers behavior.
> The nerve of some people....


Too funny......the place I worked was an Italian restaurant!!
I LOVE me some Italian folks!! Greeks too. THEY are amazing to work for and with!!


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Short answer is NO. I don't tip because I'm already paying for the goods and service I expect.

As for waitress not being paid a "fair" wage, so? Were they lied to when they were looking for a job or were they told the amount the business was going to pay them? If they were lied to they should look to the courts. If they were told the pay BEFORE they took the job then they knew how much they were going to be paid and accepted the job with their eyes open.

If you don't like how much you are being paid GET ANOTHER JOB.


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

Well, there are some cheapskates around. I've known a few of them, myself. But, I do not hang out with them, or go to dinner with them. If I do, by accident, go out with someone I did not know is a cheapskate and see them stiffing the waiter for a tip, I'll generally make it up out of my own pocket.
I go to the same places a lot. The waiters, bartenders & such know me to be a good tipper. Some of them even know me by name. So, I always get great service, in my regular haunts. It doesn't take but a few times to go to a place, before they know who you are.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Old John said:


> Well, there are some cheapskates around. I've known a few of them, myself. But, I do not hang out with them, or go to dinner with them. If I do, by accident, go out with someone I did not know is a cheapskate and see them stiffing the waiter for a tip, I'll generally make it up out of my own pocket.
> I go to the same places a lot. The waiters, bartenders & such know me to be a good tipper. Some of them even know me by name. So, I always get great service, in my regular haunts. It doesn't take but a few times to go to a place, before they know who you are.


I try to be cheap when I eat out but I do always tip. I have to add that I have some very wealthy friends and they are the worst about tipping. I am not sure why but I get very frustrated with them when we all go together so they usually reluctantly put down a few dollars and then there is my grandpa (bless his 92 year old heart) believes .50 is still a great tip on a meal for the family to eat out together. My kids and I usually wait till he walks away and then throw down a lot more. One time he caught me doing that and tried to convince me that I was wrong as he picked up my tip and said if you don't want it I do. LOL he still thinks a family should be able to buy groceries for $50.00 a month. Funny thing is he has no problem going everyday two times a day and drink coffee with his buddies ($1.00 plus) each time. I know it isn't a lot but over a month that is around $60.00 a month. BTW he is very financially secure so that is not the issue. I love him but sometimes.....


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Old John said:


> Well, there are some cheapskates around. I've known a few of them, myself. But, I do not hang out with them, or go to dinner with them. If I do, by accident, go out with someone I did not know is a cheapskate and see them stiffing the waiter for a tip, I'll generally make it up out of my own pocket.
> I go to the same places a lot. The waiters, bartenders & such know me to be a good tipper. Some of them even know me by name. So, I always get great service, in my regular haunts. It doesn't take but a few times to go to a place, before they know who you are.


So you are bribing someone to do their job?

If I owned a business I'd love to have someone else cover part of my employee's pay. Think about the money I'd save just on FICA tax. Instead of having to pay 7.65% on $8/hour/waitress I'm only paying it on $3. I'd be saying almost $0.40/hour/waitress. Say the place is open 10 hours a day and I average 4 waitress per hour that means an extra $1,400 a year in MY POCKET because of tipping. And that's just FICA, I can't remember if the amount paid for worker's comp, unemployment 'insurance' and the rest are based on pay or a flat rate.

I wonder how many tippers would howl if their grocery story put an automatic 15% "gratuity" on any bill with more than 20 items? Just image their outrage if after the job was done their plumber told them he charge $100 to do the job adding 20% to the bill as a tip.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

watcher said:


> So you are bribing someone to do their job?
> 
> If I owned a business I'd love to have someone else cover part of my employee's pay. Think about the money I'd save just on FICA tax. Instead of having to pay 7.65% on $8/hour/waitress I'm only paying it on $3. I'd be saying almost $0.40/hour/waitress. Say the place is open 10 hours a day and I average 4 waitress per hour that means an extra $1,400 a year in MY POCKET because of tipping. And that's just FICA, I can't remember if the amount paid for worker's comp, unemployment 'insurance' and the rest are based on pay or a flat rate.
> 
> I wonder how many tippers would howl if their grocery story put an automatic 15% "gratuity" on any bill with more than 20 items? Just image their outrage if after the job was done their plumber told them he charge $100 to do the job adding 20% to the bill as a tip.


Not disagreeing with you on the fact that somehow the law needs to change and restaurants at the least should pay minimum wage and the waitress/waiter keeps their tips. Wouldnt be a bad job for folks then, however those that can only find waiting jobs shouldn't be punished for bad bosses or owners.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

grandma12703 said:


> Not disagreeing with you on the fact that somehow the law needs to change and restaurants at the least should pay minimum wage and the waitress/waiter keeps their tips. Wouldnt be a bad job for folks then, however those that can only find waiting jobs shouldn't be punished for bad bosses or owners.


Wait staff take the jobs knowing what the pay is. They also know that tipping is NOT required. If more people would stop tipping the system would change because no one would take the job. But hey if people are happy with it more power to them, I'm just not going to support a system I don't agree with. I don't eat at places where I'm expected to pay a surcharge on top of my bill. I will refuse to eat at a place which AUTOMATICALLY adds a surcharge to my bill. I've sat an may 'working meals' not eating because I knew the restaurant would automatically add a surcharge on my bill just because our group chose to give them our business. Why in the world would I pay for the "privilege" of eating there?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> If more people would stop tipping the system would change because no one would take the job.


Yes, restaurant management would need to offer waiters more to attract the help they need. Food cost would probably go up a little, but not 10% to 20% that is tipped today.

When a couple goes out to dinner on a special occasion and spends $100, which is not unusual, I find it very difficult to believe that the restaurant can't afford to pay their waiters a decent wage.


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## DavidUnderwood (Jul 5, 2007)

Either way, you will pay.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Tipping is very VERY unpatriotic.
It is spitting on the graves of our forfathers who fought wars to be rid of the shackles of royalty.
We are a nation of equals , you only tip those who must do the work first and be paid as you see fit...your deeply social inferiers.
Think about it Down in your heart you know people should be paid for what they do....NOT TIPPED!


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

watcher said:


> So you are bribing someone to do their job?
> 
> <<Snip...............Snip>
> 
> I wonder how many tippers would howl if their grocery story put an automatic 15% "gratuity" on any bill with more than 20 items? Just image their outrage if after the job was done their plumber told them he charge $100 to do the job adding 20% to the bill as a tip.


Well if you gave the grocery store your list. They collected the items you wanted in the correct brands and sizes. And you simply waited 15 to 20 minutes for them to bring it all to the register and then simply Presented you with the printout, bill and your packed up groceries. It might justify their receiving a Tip................lolol

I worked a short time as a Waiter. I do not begrudge them their tips, at all.
I smile when I pay the ticket and tell them to " keep the change", which always includes a generous tip.
I really enjoy being known as a "generous man". That's just me..........


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

I do tip. However if I knew that a business was demanding all tips put in a jar and split up, I would not go back.
I tip for services I receive I do not tip for services to others.


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## DavidUnderwood (Jul 5, 2007)

Fantasymaker, are you serious? Or just crazy?
Tipping is very VERY unpatriotic.
It is spitting on the graves of our forfathers who fought wars to be rid of the shackles of royalty.
We are a nation of equals , you only tip those who must do the work first and be paid as you see fit...your deeply social inferiers.
Think about it Down in your heart you know people should be paid for what they do....NOT TIPPED! 
.
What difference does it make HOW a person gets
paid, or how YOU pay for what you want?
Nation of equals my hiney, those forfathers shackled
people, themselves. Quite a good many.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

MJsLady said:


> I do tip. However if I knew that a business was demanding all tips put in a jar and split up, I would not go back.
> I tip for services I receive I do not tip for services to others.


You might want to ask if tips are split. IIRC, there was a new law passed some years ago which requires restaurant owners to pay taxes based on the entire income of their wait staff, including tips. To do this a lot of them started demanding all tips be turned in so management could count it then split it among the staff and only have one tax rate to pay for each employee. Again based on my memory some restaurants had (still have?) a policy that keeping individual tips is a terminable offense. They would rather fire a few staff members than have the IRS crawling up their body orifices.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

watcher said:


> You might want to ask if tips are split. IIRC, there was a new law passed some years ago which requires restaurant owners to pay taxes based on the entire income of their wait staff, including tips. To do this a lot of them started demanding all tips be turned in so management could count it then split it among the staff and only have one tax rate to pay for each employee. Again based on my memory some restaurants had (still have?) a policy that keeping individual tips is a terminable offense. They would rather fire a few staff members than have the IRS crawling up their body orifices.


Corporate restaurants have an 'automatic' tip system.
Server sells 1000.00 in food and beverages.
At the end of the night, when they have closed out all their checks, the report will show a deduction of 5% of her total sales.
That is 50.00, of her tips, that are taken from her and redistributed to the bartender, food runner, busser.
Bartender gets 2%. 20.00
Food runner gets 1.5% 15.00
Busser gets 1.5%. 15.00

Now. 
If the server, has provided excellent service, we 'assume' she made 20% on her 1000.00 in sales.
That's $200.00
She MUST give away 50.00 at the end of the night, reguardless if the bartender made one drink for her, if the busser was slow, and the food runner only ran 1/2 her food.
She walks with 150.00 cash, but it is taxed, and comes out of her straight wages, 2.13 an hour. That why servers never see money on their pay checks.


Now.
IF the server, has provided excellent service, and she has a bunch of cheapo's that night and makes 10% of her 1000.00 sales....
That's 100.00
She MUST give away 50.00 at the end of the night, reguardless if the bartender made one drink for her, if the busser was slow, and the food runner only ran 1/2 her food.
She walks with 50.00
SHE SHOULD HAVE walked with 150.00 but because some people chose to be cheap, insisting on good service, but are unwilling to tip, she gets screwed.

THAT is why corporate restaurants have such a high turn over in staff.
Small, locally owned places, the servers makes her money, tips out accordingly, and it's on her to report honestly.
That's why you will see servers stay for years and years, in local mom and pop type places.

Employers can 'allocate' tips to a server.
Unless she keeps a tip book that PROVES the allocation is wrong, she's screwed and has to pay it.
That's how employers don't get stung.

At the end of the day, when a guest in a restaurant chooses to NOT tip, for whatever reason, he is getting the benefit of 'service' and not paying for it. That's low.

Minimum wage is 7.25 an hour.
Servers make 2.13 an hour.
IF they do not make 5.12 an hour in tips, then the employer has to make up the difference. That's the law.
Trust me, if a server is NOT making 5.12 an hour in tips, she will find another place to work.

People may not agree with the whole way wages are paid.
But at the end of the day, when you sit down at a table, someone brings you your drink and food, cleans up your mess, boxes up your extras, etc......you have been provided a service that MacDonalds does not. So you can tip, and pay for that service, or you can make excuses for being a cheap arce.
Whatever floats your boat.

But I dare those who DO NOT tip, to tell the server up front, that you do not tip, and see how impersonal / imperfect your service is. 
Your table is money. She will do whatever it takes to get you in and out so someone who DOES tip, can sit down and dine.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> She will do whatever it takes to get you in and out so someone who DOES tip, can sit down and dine.


Or he/she could up front say they arent paid by the establishment and are independent contractors and only will serve you if you agree to pay them separately from the restaurant bill. You know like bums used to do, lining up at grocery stores to help the little lady to her car with her groceries....


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

HermitJohn said:


> Or he/she could up front say they arent paid by the establishment and are independent contractors and only will serve you if you agree to pay them separately from the restaurant bill. You know like bums used to do, lining up at grocery stores to help the little lady to her car with her groceries....


I didn't think independent contractors were on "payrolls" of the business they are contracting for.
Servers are on the pay roll. They are paid an hourly wage, and taxed on that wage PLUS her gratuity. 
Help me understand the point you are attempting to make.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Corporate restaurants have an 'automatic' tip system.


That may be true of SOME corporate restaurants, it was not true of any of the corporate restaurants I ran or at the restaurant I owned.

The servers would enter the tips made (or whatever they wanted to claim, we never checked) into the computer for tax purposes when they signed out, but they kept all their money. When we cashed them out we added up their credit card tips and pulled that much cash out of the register to pay them for the tips that were charged. Other restaurants would add that onto their paychecks as Tip income, I didn't - they got their tips the same day and I took the loss if someone disputed their credit card bill (which only happened once in 25 years)


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

mnn2501 said:


> That may be true of SOME corporate restaurants, it was not true of any of the corporate restaurants I ran or at the restaurant I owned.
> 
> The servers would enter the tips made (or whatever they wanted to claim, we never checked) into the computer for tax purposes when they signed out, but they kept all their money. When we cashed them out we added up their credit card tips and pulled that much cash out of the register to pay them for the tips that were charged. Other restaurants would add that onto their paychecks as Tip income, I didn't - they got their tips the same day and I took the loss if someone disputed their credit card bill (which only happened once in 25 years)


Here in Zone 5:
TGI Fridays
Loon Lake Lodge
Texas Roadhouse
Morton's
Eddie Merlot's
and many many others practice the 'automatic withdraw of 5% of the total sales.' A lot of hotels are doing the same.

Seems like every year more and more places are going to this practice.
It's too bad. 
You are lucky this is not the norm in your town!!


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

preparing said:


> I imagine the majority of folks that respond to this thread will claim anyone who doesn't leave a tip is denying the waitstaff their just pay since they are paid a subpar wage.





grandma12703 said:


> Who knows? It may mean the difference between a single mom getting to grab a gallon of milk and bologna for her children or them going to bed with only water.


Well I work at Walmart making $7.15/hr and after taxes and paying rent,car payment, insurance,electricity, phone and other nessecities I sometimes cannot afford to grab a gallon of milk and bologna for my kids. Will you please tip me while checking out in my line? What should I do?



GET A BETTER JOB!!
by the way, I have no kids and don't work for minimum wage or at Walmart but you could subsitute Walmart for many jobs out there that pay min. wage. Should we start tipping everyone making min. wage because that is a subpar wage?

And you all say its for services provided(cleaning up or whatever) and that you shouldn't tip grocery stores or whatever because you pick out your own items but it is a service those places provide.

I do however work at a retail establishment that takes the product out to your car and those guys very rarely ever get tipped. (maybe a $5/week if their lucky) Even though they make min wage and are even supposed to refuse tips.

So when do we tip or not if it is to make up for the subpar wages? What's subpar anymore? Is $40,000/yr subpar since the average income is $56,000? I think it is up to the employer to pay a fair wage for services performed not the consumer and if the employee is not satisfied with his wage there are other places hiring.

Just so you know: I do usually tip but usually around the 10% mark (why did it ever go to 20% with rising food prices) and very rarely visit establishments that require tipping.


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

So do you all give gratuity to your barber, hairstylist, mailman, etc, at the end of the year? 

I don't, gosh my barber charges $12 for a haircut and on a busy morning he might be making $48 - $60 per hour. That would all add up to a good chunk of cash by the end of the week. That's what I need to do, go to barber school. One of these days he's gonna have to retire and someone needs to take his place. 

Also, do any of you go to a drive-in, such as Sonic, and tip the waitress/waiter? I do, but I usually only give a dollar. Is that too little? I figured all they done was just delivered it from the counter inside straight to me.

Watcher, you must be a very old lady or a old contankerous man. The more cute and friendleir the waitress is, the more I tip.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Honest question, because I don't understand. I am trying to see 'the other side of the coin'.

For those who DON'T tip because they do not agree with a server making 2.13 an hour and they feel like 'THEY' are making up the difference, not the employer.....

Help me to understand.

When you go to Walmart, and you pay 4.99 for a 12 pack of double roll toilet paper, you are paying for:
the actual product
the workers that produce the product
the trucker who takes it to the main distribution center, 
the worker who unloads the truck and stacks it in the warehouse, 
the worker who 'picks' this product and puts it on the truck to ship to the store, 
the wages of the workers who receive the product into the store, 
the workers who stack it on the shelves, the worker who rings you up 
(and for those who use the self check, the gal that supervises that area).

Never once does it cross anyone's mind that 'you don't want to pay the warehouse workers wages, so take ___% off the cost of the toilet paper. You don't have that option.

With a waitress, in a sit down, order off a menu, full service restaurant, there is a "service" attached to your experience.
No one at Walmart is gonna shop for you, ring up for you, carry your stuff to the car, pack it in your car........while you sit in your car and enjoy the fact YOU didn't have to do it yourself.
Waitress provide a service.
(Good ones) will tell you all about the menu item you are looking at. They will tell you what's good, and what to stay away from. The keep your drink full, they bring you more bread, they bring your food, clear your plates, bring fresh cracked pepper if you wish, they make sure every thing is perfect, they clean up after you, they bring you coffee with sugar and cream (if you desire), they allow you the space to just enjoy your dining experience, have a great conversation with your wife/dh....let you conduct business with and associate, whatever. 
The restaurant industry has ALWAYS paid considerably less than minimum wage, because gratuity is the nature of the restaurant industry. It's not a new concept.

*So please, in all seriousness, help me to understand how someone can "hate the way this system is"......and go into "that system".......enjoy the service, demand the service, expect the service.......and not pay for it?*


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Oldcountryboy said:


> So do you all give gratuity to your barber, hairstylist, mailman, etc, at the end of the year?
> 
> I don't, gosh my barber charges $12 for a haircut and on a busy morning he might be making $48 - $60 per hour. That would all add up to a good chunk of cash by the end of the week. That's what I need to do, go to barber school. One of these days he's gonna have to retire and someone needs to take his place.


My barber charges $16 and I always let him keep a $20. But then my hair grows slow, so its 4 or 5 months between cuts.

Remember, your $12 is not all profit, if he owns the shop he's paying; rent, electricity, repairs, supplies, heat/air cond, water, sewer, garbage, etc and if he's not the owner he's paying the owner rent to use the chair.

I don't tip the mailman, he's a quasi-government employee with government benefits and pay


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Hair stylist gives me the 'friends and family' discount.
50% off.
He spends 2 hours on my head when I come in.....and I come out with beautiful red hair.
He gives me, and my girls, the same quality service as he does the full paying customers.
At a 50% discount.
And I tip him 30% on my head, and 40% on the girls hair cuts.
And I still save a butt ton of money, and he makes a butt ton in gratuity.
And I adore my hairdresser. I'd do anything for him.
I consider him, my friend.

He pays the salon for his booth space.
He pays for the products he uses.
He pays for his own health care insurance.

What his monthly booth space fee gets him? A primo location that is in the middle of a very affluent community, a receptionist, electricity, water, towels.
What the salon gets from him?
Exposure. The ability to sell more services (manie-pedi). Hair care / Face products.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Honest question, because I don't understand. I am trying to see 'the other side of the coin'.
> 
> For those who DON'T tip because they do not agree with a server making 2.13 an hour and they feel like 'THEY' are making up the difference, not the employer.....
> 
> ...


ok, well then why doesn't that restaurant owner just do the same thing, mark the food up 10% and put a big sign on the door saying tipping is not necessary? You say its because they go above and beyond "normal"(non tipped) restaurants but my retail establishment goes above and beyond also. The customer comes in picks out their products with assistance of a salesman and a salesperson rings them out and a warehouse guy pulls their product and loads it into their car. Yet we're not tipped. We could just open up the doors to the warehouse and tell em to go get their own products and have cashiers at the door but we don't and we don't expect to be tipped. Like I said earlier we're even supposed to refuse tips. 

Why the double standards?

I know its not a new concept but that doesn't mean we have to like it.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

mnn2501 said:


> My barber charges $16 and I always let him keep a $20. But then my hair grows slow, so its 4 or 5 months between cuts.
> 
> Remember, your $12 is not all profit, if he owns the shop he's paying; rent, electricity, repairs, supplies, heat/air cond, water, sewer, garbage, etc and if he's not the owner he's paying the owner rent to use the chair.
> 
> I don't tip the mailman, he's a quasi-government employee with government benefits and pay


But that is the same with all businesses. Their prices reflect their profit as well as business expenses like rent, utilities, etc. I still don't see why some people providing services should be tipped while others should not. All I can see is it is a way for restaurants to disguise the cost of their meals. If my tab is $25.00 and I leave a $5.00 tip, the meal cost me $30.00. I think restaurants should just charge $30.00 for the meal and pay their waiters a decent wage, just like every other business.


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

I have a British friend who loves to come to the States and be served in restaurants.

Apparently, in Britain they don't tip. They do EXACTLY as some of you wish we would do here - operate a business where tips are not expected to cover the wages of the waitstaff. Tipping is not part of the dining culture over there.

Why does my friend love eating in the States? Because our workers are pleasant. They smile. They are friendly. They are attentive. They project a positive atmosphere. And when they fail, they don't get a good tip, and either shape up or move on. Unlike in England. In England, they don't get good tips either - they don't get ANY tips. And the waitstaff acts bored. Unmotivated. Not especially cheerful. The restaurant atmosphere is completely different. My friend loves it here because back in England the service is POOR in comparison. 

TIPS PROVIDE MOTIVATION to provide good service. And some of you tightwads are simply unappreciative and don't care about the well-being of those who serve you. Get another job, in this economy? As simple as that? You value hoity-toity principles at the expense of someone just trying to get by so maybe they CAN get out of the industry? 

Character. You are what you do. And if you don't feel waitresses and waiters are entitled to tips for good service, then you yourself feel rather entitled to their good natures.

Why would you go to a restaurant where waiters and waitresses live on tips, and choose to break their morale? Because that is the choice you make. And you justify the morale-breaking with cheap comments about how things should be different when they aren't. 

Do some of you people actually SEE the face of the person who serves you?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

blooba said:


> ok, well then why doesn't that restaurant owner just do the same thing, mark the food up 10% and put a big sign on the door saying tipping is not necessary? You say its because they go above and beyond "normal"(non tipped) restaurants but my retail establishment goes above and beyond also.


You do not get a 'server' at mac donalds. 
You go to the counter. 
You get your food there.
You walk it to your table.
NO one refills your drink or takes away your trash.
You are not provided 'table service'.
Only 'counter service'.
Do you see the difference?



> The customer comes in picks out their products with assistance of a salesman and a salesperson rings them out and a warehouse guy pulls their product and loads it into their car. Yet we're not tipped.


They are paid minimum wage or better.
It is not the nature / norm for this type of occupation to make gratuities.



> We could just open up the doors to the warehouse and tell em to go get their own products and have cashiers at the door but we don't and we don't expect to be tipped. Like I said earlier we're even supposed to refuse tips.
> 
> Why the double standards?


I am not seeing the double standard? Help me see it.
Warehouse workers are not paid 2.13 an hour, plus tips.
I am not sure what you are getting at??



> I know its not a new concept but that doesn't mean we have to like it.


Ok.
I hate best buy.
I hate their lame return policy and their restock fees.
I hate their intense lack of customer service.
So, no matter what's on sale......no matter it's the only place in town that carries what I want......
I will not shop there. Period.
I think it's a shifty shady operation.
I don't like how they do things there.
I don't go into the store, comparison shop, have an employee explain something to me in detail, then leave and buy elsewhere.
That's just sketchy.
I simply do not go into that store, period.

For folks who 'hate the gratuity system'
Don't go where the gratuity system is in play.
Just because you don't like it, doesn't give you the right to receive, expect, and demand services that you will not pay for.
Just like it would be totally uncool for me to 'use the services of the best buy employees time in explaining the new ipad' and then buying it at Fry's.

Does that make sense?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Honest question, because I don't understand. I am trying to see 'the other side of the coin'.
> 
> For those who DON'T tip because they do not agree with a server making 2.13 an hour and they feel like 'THEY' are making up the difference, not the employer.....
> 
> ...


When I go to a sit down restaurant I expect to be served and I pay the restaurant to provide that service to me. When you call a plumber do you not expect him to come to your house, diagnose your problem, decide what items are needed to fix the problem, obtain those items, bring them into your house, use those items to fix your problem using tools he provides then clean up after himself? After he's done and gives you the bill would you be upset if he added a 20% gratuity the the bill? After all look at all the service he has provided to you.


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

*Everybody* knows tipping is expected at a sitdown restaurant in exchange for the services the waitstaff provides because waitstaff wages are dependent on them. 

IMO, if you do not tip your waiter or waitress after good service you are basically a thief, taking from someone who has, in good faith, delivered a service to you. You can backbend around the issue as much as you like, but you can't get around that you are taking something for nothing. If you were honest, you would tell the waiter that you do not tip so he should not spend time servicing your table, but you don't because you want something for nothing.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> You do not get a 'server' at mac donalds.
> You go to the counter.
> You get your food there.
> You walk it to your table.
> ...


*Millions of people do exactly as you say, they have even coined a term for it called "showrooming" There are more people that "showroom" than do not tip. So since I am a commisioned salesperson and have to waste my time with these "showroomers" would you please tip me to make up for the time I wasted without making any money at all? *

This is the problem of this country, too many people are ok with the status quo. "This is the way its been for as long as I remember it so its ok" Well hate to burst your bubble but its not ok!!! If we keep this up everyone will be making $2.13/hr and depending on tips. I do have one profession that I think should be a tipped employee, IRS Auditor (think they would make good tips?) I mean he has to rummage through all your wrinckled receipts and do the math and find out all the places you screwed up, I think that deserves a tip, what do you think?


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

SunsetSonata said:


> I have a British friend who loves to come to the States and be served in restaurants.
> 
> Apparently, in Britain they don't tip. They do EXACTLY as some of you wish we would do here - operate a business where tips are not expected to cover the wages of the waitstaff. Tipping is not part of the dining culture over there.
> 
> ...


When I conduct business at any establishment I expect good natured people and good service. It has nothing to do with being tipped or not. If I do not get good service with good attitudes I will go somewhere else. I have walked out of many establishments due to poor service,poor attitude, or poor quality products and not gone back depending on the circumstances. I don't call it entitlement I call it capitalism. The good prosper and the bad go out of business.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I don't tip just because it's expected. If I feel really good about service then I'll tip, but otherwise I don't. I get criticized for that attitude a lot here in Las Vegas, but that's how I feel about it.
> 
> I don't like the argument that I should always tip because waiters are low-paid and depend on tips to make a decent living. Waiters deserve to make a decent living, but it's not my place to provide that living. Why should it be my place to make up the difference when employers don't pay their workers a fair wage?


Awwww comeon Nevada.... you can afford to leave 100 percent tip... since we all know you are eating a free buffet anyway... it still would cost you.... nothing! :hysterical:

Me? I usually tip the waitress around half the price of a meal..... if the service is really good I am quite happy to leave her an amount equal to the meal (or the bar tab depending on where I am). I also will designate another 10 or 15 bucks to the cook if the food is especially good. Whats another 50 bucks one way or the other when one is out on the town enjoying lifes little rewards? If I cant afford to pay for my dinner and whatever drinks I may have... along with a substantial tip for those who work their tails off providing me with the luxury of service with a smile, I have no business going out and spending my money anyway.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

watcher said:


> When I go to a sit down restaurant I expect to be served and I pay the restaurant to provide that service to me. When you call a plumber do you not expect him to come to your house, diagnose your problem, decide what items are needed to fix the problem, obtain those items, bring them into your house, use those items to fix your problem using tools he provides then clean up after himself? After he's done and gives you the bill would you be upset if he added a 20% gratuity the the bill? After all look at all the service he has provided to you.


I would be tickled to death to pay the plumber 20% of the cost of materials in lieu of the several hundred bucks "labor" normally tacked onto the 50 bucks worth of parts.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I would be tickled to death to pay the plumber 20% of the cost of materials in lieu of the several hundred bucks "labor" normally tacked onto the 50 bucks worth of parts.


So do you think the costs of those meals are what the restaurant pays for them?

They have an average of about a 300% markup on their food items, about 500% markup on drinks if not more. What do you think would happen if all retail stores would mark their items up that much?

Lets take a car sale for example. You walk in the door and are greeted with a receptionist. Then get hooked up with a car salesman that describes all the features of vehicles on the "menu" you then select one (if not more) and take it for a test drive (burning the dealerships gas). Meanwhile the appraiser is looking your dirty/nasty old car over to get a fair market value. You get back to the dealership and deal with the sales manager (via the salesman usually) and negotiate a deal and head toward the finance officers office. Meanwhile the detailers are cleaning your new car(which was already clean) and they will have to clean your old nasty car. Then the salesman usually fills the tank with gas (they come from the manufacturer empty) and delivers it to you.

Thats alot of service you are requiring from them, alot more than when you go to eat out. Yet, the average markup on a car is 8-10%. Instead of $20,000 would you like to pay $54,000? That would be the same 300% markup that restaurants enjoy. So why don't you make sure to tip your car salesman on your next purchase since he only has a 8-10% markup.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

So here it is.
I guess, at the end of the day, folks who KNOW and UNDERSTAND that servers make 2.13 an hour PLUS TIPS.....refuse to tip because they don't like the system.
They don't care that it IS the way things are, they refuse to tip, on principal.
Thereby forcing the server to pay 8% tax to the government on YOUR bill.....and receiving ZERO tip to pay that tax, thereby putting him/ her in the hole, on your check.

So non tippers, who don't tip, because they don't 'like the system' are not paying the 'server' her just due so they can make a point. EVEN when it's explained to the non tipper how the system works, they still, refuse to tip!
WOW.

Maybe I will quit paying my taxes cause I don't like part of my money going to abortions.
How do you think that will work out for me??


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> So here it is.
> I guess, at the end of the day, folks who KNOW and UNDERSTAND that servers make 2.13 an hour PLUS TIPS.....refuse to tip because they don't like the system.
> They don't care that it IS the way things are, they refuse to tip, on principal.
> Thereby forcing the server to pay 8% tax to the government on YOUR bill.....and receiving ZERO tip to pay that tax, thereby putting him/ her in the hole, on your check.
> ...


For one, if the servers stop making such good money and start quitting or complaining then the restaurant owners will have to start paying better to keep good servers. $2.13 is min. wage, there are no laws saying they can't pay their help more. Do you think all these others businesses would keep good help if they only paid min wage?

Secondly, the server doesn't have to "pay" 8% taxes on that tables bill. That is the amount withheld. Come tax time if it doesn't equal out per the tips collected,they will either get a refund or a tax bill. 8% is the average due to the average tips. if the average tips went down then that percentage would go down. Everyone pays from the same tax rate tables so we all pay the same amounts of tax. Actually the server collecting tips has a chance to pocket some of the money and not claim it on the taxes where others do not have that type of opportunity.

"According to 1998 IRS estimates, however, fewer than 40% of all tips received were reported, an estimated $9&#8211;$12 billion in unreported income." http://www.nysscpa.org/cpajournal/2006/1206/essentials/p30.htm

Tipping and servers are doing this country a disjustice by not reporting ALL tips and costing us taxpayers even more money. Think about it, if that $9 billion was taxed at 30% it would be $3 billion more in the tax revenue. But since its not being paid us taxpayers have to make up the difference costing us taxpayers even more money. (and we wonder why our taxes are so high)

So tell me again why I should be contributing to their tax evasion?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

blooba said:


> For one, if the servers stop making such good money and start quitting or complaining then the restaurant owners will have to start paying better to keep good servers. $2.13 is min. wage, there are no laws saying they can't pay their help more. Do you think all these others businesses would keep good help if they only paid min wage?
> 
> Secondly, the server doesn't have to "pay" 8% taxes on that tables bill. That is the amount withheld. Come tax time if it doesn't equal out per the tips collected,they will either get a refund or a tax bill. 8% is the average due to the average tips. if the average tips went down then that percentage would go down. Everyone pays from the same tax rate tables so we all pay the same amounts of tax. Actually the server collecting tips has a chance to pocket some of the money and not claim it on the taxes where others do not have that type of opportunity.
> 
> ...


Bottom line.
You know servers make 2.13 an hour.
You know they live on tips.

You don't want to tip, but you demand service.
You make up excuses not to tip.

Fine. Don't tip.
Go ahead, enjoy the service and don't pay for it.
At the end of the day, that's what it is.
You demand services you are unwilling to pay for.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Bottom line.
> You know servers make 2.13 an hour.
> You know they live on tips.
> 
> ...


No, actually if you read up in one of my comments I do still tip when I goto one of these establishments but I only tip the (formally normal) 10% and I always use a credit card so they have to report my tip on their taxes. Yes there are some special occasions I may tip more for exceptional service but I try to not contribute to this form of business due to the circumstances. And if more people were like me and didn't frequent these types of places and not tip so much things would change.

I know I cannot change the world myself but with many others doing the same things can and do change. People are fed up with the status quo and want change. So next time you go to place a tip down think about these facts I have pointed out and do so accordingly.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Belfrybat said:


> I always tip -- if service is particularly poor I talk to the manager. Here in Texas the wage for waitstaff is $2.13 an hour, which I think is horrible. The rest come from tips. A friend works as a waitress and is expected to give 10% of her tips to to the kitchen staff, which I think is fair. .


I don't think that is fair at all. The kitchen staff gets a regular hourly wage, regardless of how busy the place is. If business is bad a particular night, they still get paid what they always get paid. They are paid to do a job and to do it right.

Waitstaff gets paid a few dollars an hour which serves the purpose of having taxes taken out based on their tips. When I was a waitress we were taxed a minimum of 8% of our total sales. So if you don't leave any tip, it costs that server money to bring you your food. Even if the service is really bad I leave at least 8%.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Nevada said:


> gamble smart;


That is a contradiction in terms. Gambling is not smart at all. You might as well burn your money.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Dutchie said:


> That is a contradiction in terms. Gambling is not smart at all. You might as well burn your money.


Life is a gamble. Any enterprise to make money is a gamble.

Retail gambling games tend not to be smart way to go, they are usually very biased in favor of the house. But there are those that are less biased, some actually nearly break even. The break even type games are usually low stakes games, a "gateway drug" if you like, to get people to lose their common sense and bet their pension on red....

I think Nevada has his own system and has posted about it several times.

I know a couple that have simpler system, they play slot machines. They go in, if they lose several small bets, they leave. Never losing more than $100 in a very bad luck day. If they stay pretty much even they continue to play until they either start winning or losing. If they start winning, always pocket some of winnings so you are playing with the houses money, soon as they win a few hundred dollars, they quit and leave. Their philosophy is that the real losers are those that get greedy enough that if they win or lose, they keep gambling. My friends make some nice pocket change with their system. They know all ins and outs and which machines are programmed to be the most generous, etc. And that lot of it is winning streak. Dont look for a home run and quit early if you cant even get on base. Always take home some of the house's money if you win at all. 

Saying that, retail casino gambling not my thing, doesnt give me any thrill. I dont like the environment, dont like the "games". I'd rather do research and bet on a small stock. Or gamble buying some physical object that I know I can make a profit on. 

But my friends are more people persons, they like having people around and interacting with people. They enjoy it, make some extra pocket money, so more power to them. Course if everybody was like them, the casinos would be in a world of hurt. They depend on people being stupid and getting addicted.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

blooba said:


> Lets take a car sale for example. You walk in the door and are greeted with a receptionist. Then get hooked up with a car salesman that describes all the features of vehicles on the "menu" you then select one (if not more) and take it for a test drive (burning the dealerships gas). Meanwhile the appraiser is looking your dirty/nasty old car over to get a fair market value. You get back to the dealership and deal with the sales manager (via the salesman usually) and negotiate a deal and head toward the finance officers office. Meanwhile the detailers are cleaning your new car(which was already clean) and they will have to clean your old nasty car. Then the salesman usually fills the tank with gas (they come from the manufacturer empty) and delivers it to you.
> 
> Thats alot of service you are requiring from them, alot more than when you go to eat out. Yet, the average markup on a car is 8-10%. Instead of $20,000 would you like to pay $54,000? That would be the same 300% markup that restaurants enjoy. So why don't you make sure to tip your car salesman on your next purchase since he only has a 8-10% markup.


I wouldnt pay 54k for a new car anymore than I would pay 20k!  The most I have ever paid for any car was 3k... and that was only because my Yvonne was worried about her old one (which I am still driving four years later) not being dependable. Prior to that the most I had paid for a car was a 1000 bucks for my trusty old caddy that carried me back and forth across our nations highways for over 20 years. I have yet to "trade in" (give my car to a dealer) any car I have ever owned, or buy a car from a dealership. The only people that have EVER cleaned any of my cars for me have been professionals at a car wash... once... back in the mid 70's when I was driving my $500 1965 mustang. They did a great job, inside and out, and yes, I tipped them each an extra 5 bucks. Those 4 guys worked their hineys off, and werent getting paid diddly but they did a great job and had "earned" a tip even if they hadnt shared a little of what they were smoking with me. 

If I ever lose my mental capacity enough to find myself in an auto dealership, getting huckstered into buying a new car... I will most likely tip the salesperson... if she gives me a good service.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I didn't think independent contractors were on "payrolls" of the business they are contracting for.
> Servers are on the pay roll. They are paid an hourly wage, and taxed on that wage PLUS her gratuity.
> Help me understand the point you are attempting to make.


So you are not really an independent contractor nor a true employee. Sounds like a really pee-poor kind of job! But until either people petition to change the laws to prevent such exploitation or else people refuse to participate, then it wont change. 

Doing same thing over and over, expecting different results is the height of foolishness. 

If people boycott such buisinesses then they will fail and perhaps if enough demand, newer better employers will step up.

Or if people petition for better laws, then no employer is allowed to participate in such exploitative practices.

Or if we just accept it and participate in it, nothing changes and probably gets worse as such crummy employers find even more effective ways to exploit their workers.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I wouldnt pay 54k for a new car anymore than I would pay 20k!  The most I have ever paid for any car was 3k... and that was only because my Yvonne was worried about her old one (which I am still driving four years later) not being dependable. Prior to that the most I had paid for a car was a 1000 bucks for my trusty old caddy that carried me back and forth across our nations highways for over 20 years. I have yet to "trade in" (give my car to a dealer) any car I have ever owned, or buy a car from a dealership. The only people that have EVER cleaned any of my cars for me have been professionals at a car wash... once... back in the mid 70's when I was driving my $500 1965 mustang. They did a great job, inside and out, and yes, I tipped them each an extra 5 bucks. Those 4 guys worked their hineys off, and werent getting paid diddly but they did a great job and had "earned" a tip even if they hadnt shared a little of what they were smoking with me.
> 
> If I ever lose my mental capacity enough to find myself in an auto dealership, getting huckstered into buying a new car... I will most likely tip the salesperson... if she gives me a good service.


I once bought a new car (back when they had used dinosaurs with saddles on them parked on the back lot), there was so much profit in it for a myriad of folk that it was insane. Never ever did that again (fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...). Participating in any financial enterprise where I am on sucker end with whole bunch hands in the pie looking to make out like a bandit just isnt wise. Unfortunately modern cars are such that its next to impossible to economically fix one, even under shade tree at home....

Right now the health care industry is simular. Few years ago I went to emergency room with badly sprained ankle, not knowing if it was sprained or broken. They couldnt even give me an up front price estimate. They gave me a couple xrays, determined it was a bad sprain and not broken, then sent me home with pair new crutches and a velcro splint not giving me the option to buy my own outside their system. They couldnt give me a final bill as I left, just said watch my mailbox.... I got billed by no less than a DOZEN different buisinesses. All of which said if I paid in cash within 30 days they would knock 50% off the bill. I was surprised I didnt get billed separately by the janitor and groundskeeper. Jeeze Louise, this was legalized scamming to the max.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Dutchie said:


> That is a contradiction in terms. Gambling is not smart at all. You might as well burn your money.


For playing slot machines, I would agree. However, it might surprise you to know that some games can be beat consistently and legally. Even if you aren't willing to take the time and effort to learn how to beat the casinos, which I understand that most tourists aren't going to do, you can at least learn enough about the games to give yourself a fighting chance.

I suggest that you avoid slots, look for games with lower variance, learn proper play strategy for the game, always play at maximum coin-in, and gamble at a denomination that you can afford to lose. Above all, don't change strategy or denomination because you are losing; just walk away. And if you've got gambling coupons, use them. That's at least gambling smart.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> So here it is.
> I guess, at the end of the day, folks who KNOW and UNDERSTAND that servers make 2.13 an hour PLUS TIPS.....refuse to tip because they don't like the system.
> They don't care that it IS the way things are, they refuse to tip, on principal.
> Thereby forcing the server to pay 8% tax to the government on YOUR bill.....and receiving ZERO tip to pay that tax, thereby putting him/ her in the hole, on your check.
> ...


Why don't I deserve to be tipped?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Awwww comeon Nevada.... you can afford to leave 100 percent tip... since we all know you are eating a free buffet anyway... it still would cost you.... nothing! :hysterical:


5 or 6 years ago I took a girl to the Sahara buffet for dinner on a 2for1 buffet coupon. They had an interesting setup there (I say 'had' because the buffet closed 3 or 4 years ago, then the hotel closed last year).

A hostess seats you (she points to table and says "sit there"). Of course being a buffet, you get your own food. But there is a self-serve area where you get your drinks, eating utensils and what not. During our meal no employee visited our table for any reason. The only employees we saw in the seating area were a few people clearing tables.

Upon leaving, the girl asked me if I was going to leave a tip. I asked, "For who? I didn't see a waitress." She still insisted that someone would be along to clear the table, so I should leave a tip anyway. I left a few dollars on the table to keep the peace, but I honestly didn't see the point.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

blooba said:


> So do you think the costs of those meals are what the restaurant pays for them?
> 
> They have an average of about a 300% markup on their food items, about 500% markup on drinks if not more.


Actually the mark up on the food should be closer to 400% if you want to make any money at all. A REALLY good restaurant that's busy all the time may make a profit of 4 to 6 % so your mark up story is not worth the electrons its printed on.

I know, I've owned and managed restaurants.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

I feel no obligation to tip at a restaurant. I do on occasion tip if service warrants a tip. I will tip if I we are out with our toddler and he makes more mess a the table than he should. I will complainto the manager if the service is poor and I will comment to the manager if a waitress is very good. 

If all you do is take my order, bring my food and take my payment then you have not severed me..


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

I am really, really....REALLY...shocked that there are so many people who think it is ok not to tip.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

FeralFemale said:


> *Everybody* knows tipping is expected at a sitdown restaurant in exchange for the services the waitstaff provides because waitstaff wages are dependent on them.
> 
> IMO, if you do not tip your waiter or waitress after good service you are basically a thief, taking from someone who has, in good faith, delivered a service to you. You can backbend around the issue as much as you like, but you can't get around that you are taking something for nothing. If you were honest, you would tell the waiter that you do not tip so he should not spend time servicing your table, but you don't because you want something for nothing.


Nope. I'm paying THE RESTAURANT for a good and service. The food is the good. Taking my order, cooking the food, delivering the food, making sure I don't need any more goods (desert, coffee, etc) is the service. Just with any other business I expect that business to provide the goods and services for the advertised price. Think about it, if you went into a store and the price of a service was listed as $100 and when you got your credit card the charge it was $120 would you just say; "Oh well." and move on or would you contact the company?

A tip/gratuity is a BONUS. It may be expected but unless the restaurant adds it to the bill automatically, at which point it becomes a surcharge not a tip, it isn't required. If it were required anyone not tipping could be arrested for theft of services just as someone who tries to skip out on the bill.

Wait staff takes the job expecting to make tips but they should be told that people are NOT required to pay anything but the cost of the bill and any taxes required by law. They take the job knowing how much they will be paid. They take the chance that people will feel so sorry about the fact their waiter/waitress was stupid enough to take a job which pays so poorly they must hope/beg people to give them money.

Again its a great system. . . . for the business owners. Why do you think they fight any attempt to change the system.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> So here it is.
> I guess, at the end of the day, folks who KNOW and UNDERSTAND that servers make 2.13 an hour PLUS TIPS.....refuse to tip because they don't like the system.
> They don't care that it IS the way things are, they refuse to tip, on principal.
> Thereby forcing the server to pay 8% tax to the government on YOUR bill.....and receiving ZERO tip to pay that tax, thereby putting him/ her in the hole, on your check.
> ...


As long as people tip wait staff will staff will always be at the mercy of who ever does the schedule. How much in tips do you think the staff working the 2-6 shift on the week days make compared to those on the 6 to closing weekend shift? In a busy place you can make more on Friday and Saturday working that shift than working any other 5 shifts. 

That's another reason restaurant owners LOVE the tipping system. They can afford to have staff standing around doing nothing when business is dead because it cost them next to nothing. Ever go into a restaurant and see 3 or 4 wait staff standing around? Where there one cook or no cook, depending on if the manager/owner can run the kitchen, and no busboy, waitresses bus the few tables there are, because a cook and busboy are paid 2-4 times more per hour than wait staff. That means having 3 waitresses on the clock can cost less than having a single busboy.

One of the biggest cost at a fast food restaurant is labor and one of the biggest headaches for management is trying to balance having enough people there to handle the ups and downs of sales with having so many people on the clock you are losing money. If management could have them, effectively, clock out when ever there was no customers and clock in when someone comes in they'd be VERY HAPPY.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

FeralFemale said:


> I am really, really....REALLY...shocked that there are so many people who think it is ok not to tip.


Why? Are waitresses forced to take the job? Are they tricked into working for $3/hr? If you feel you are REQUIRED to tip is it a tip or is it a surcharge?

The tipping system is a boon, for restaurants. The people who howl the loudest when ever there is even the slightest hint the system will be changed is the restaurant owners. That fact alone should tell you something.


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

watcher said:


> Why? Are waitresses forced to take the job? Are they tricked into working for $3/hr? If you feel you are REQUIRED to tip is it a tip or is it a surcharge?
> 
> The tipping system is a boon, for restaurants. The people who howl the loudest when ever there is even the slightest hint the system will be changed is the restaurant owners. That fact alone should tell you something.


No one is saying you are required to tip. If the service is bad, then don't tip. But outright not tipping, even with good service, is really just about being cheap and wanting to save a few dollars because they know they can get away with stiffing the server.

Like I said -- if the anti tippers were honest, they'd let their server know ahead of time that they don't tip. But no...they still want all the benefits of full wait service without paying for it.

If you don't like the system, the solution is not to stiff your server you KNOW is dependent on tips. The solution is not to patronize such establishments.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I was shocked when I moved to WV at how many people just do not tip. I always try to leave a good tip, if for nothing else, to make up for all the cheapskates.


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## machinistmike (Oct 16, 2011)

When trying to figure out how much you tip your server please take into account the amount of time you sat at that table after being served. The server needs that table to open up for the next customer. If you stay an hour after the meal has been finished you are costing the server and restaurant money. Don't feel rushed but don't move in either. Eat your meal and please leave. Take note of how many tables your server is handling, if they are buried give them a break. Try to keep up with a 10-15 table station keeping everyone happy. It really is a tough job, if you doubt that I invite you to work a Friday/Saturday night dinner shift. You will be exhausted after only 3-4 hrs.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

beccachow said:


> My problem is mathematical brain farts.



This reminds me of a time I was out on a business trip, the day after suffering a concussion.

A couple weeks later I was doing my expense account and found that I had left a 70% tip at a restaurant! :shocked:

Needless to say, I did not claim reimbursement for the extra 50%...I should have been more careful...or wise enough not to travel in that condition!


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

machinistmike said:


> When trying to figure out how much you tip your server please take into account the amount of time you sat at that table after being served. The server needs that table to open up for the next customer. If you stay an hour after the meal has been finished you are costing the server and restaurant money. Don't feel rushed but don't move in either. Eat your meal and please leave. Take note of how many tables your server is handling, if they are buried give them a break. Try to keep up with a 10-15 table station keeping everyone happy. It really is a tough job, if you doubt that I invite you to work a Friday/Saturday night dinner shift. You will be exhausted after only 3-4 hrs.


I seem to have the opposite problem. Often I have to track the server down to get the ticket after being left to sit for 15-20 mins. I want to leave soon after I eat, not spend the night or play catch the server.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

FeralFemale said:


> No one is saying you are required to tip. If the service is bad, then don't tip. But outright not tipping, even with good service, is really just about being cheap and wanting to save a few dollars because they know they can get away with stiffing the server.
> 
> Like I said -- if the anti tippers were honest, they'd let their server know ahead of time that they don't tip. But no...they still want all the benefits of full wait service without paying for it.
> 
> If you don't like the system, the solution is not to stiff your server you KNOW is dependent on tips. The solution is not to patronize such establishments.


When I go into a 'full service' gas station I expect the guy to pump my gas for me because I'm paying extra for that service. When I go to a 'full service' restaurant I expect the waitress to bring my food because I'm paying extra for that service. In each case I'm entering into a contact with the business. The business agrees to provide a service at a price and I agree to pay that price for that service. When someone accepts a job they enter into a contract. The business agrees to pay for getting the job done and the employee agrees to do that job for that amount. If someone is willing to agree to take a job which pays $3/hr with the hope that the business' customers will feel sorry for them being stupid enough to work for that pay and kick in more money then they have that right. But they have no right to extort money from me by REFUSING TO DO THE JOB THEY AGREED TO until I pay more than I contracted for, for the service I expect.

Say you went to the grocery store and the checker told you if you didn't agree to give her a 'tip' equal to 10% of your bill she 'might' take longer to scan your food and she just 'might accidentally' scan a few things twice and not notice. Would you agree to pay 10% more to get the service you expect from the grocery store? Or would you contact the manager? What if he told you one of the reasons he could sell food so cheaply was by screwing his help by paying them so little they had to beg or extort more money out the customers?

As I said the agreement between the waitress and the restaurant is their business. I have no say in how much money they agree to exchange for providing the service.

And as I have said before I avoid eating in full service restaurants because of this system. I will not all any restaurant which charges me a surcharge because I bring a large amount of business (the automatic "tip" for groups, usually over 6). To be honest with I know of no other business which screws people for using their service for bringing in a large amount of business. Why would I use some place which is going to charge me a surcharge of 15% if I bring in 29 people for a meal? Does it cost them more to serve 29 people who just happen to come in as a group than if 29 strangers walked in?

I have told restaurants I *would not* be using them to host retirement/Christmas/promotion/etc parties because they told me with a group, even with advanced notice, would be charged extra. There are places out there who are willing to take our $600+ dollars worth of business w/o charging us $690+ for it.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

watcher said:


> When I go into a 'full service' gas station I expect the guy to pump my gas for me because I'm paying extra for that service. When I go to a 'full service' restaurant I expect the waitress to bring my food because I'm paying extra for that service. In each case I'm entering into a contact with the business. The business agrees to provide a service at a price and I agree to pay that price for that service. When someone accepts a job they enter into a contract. The business agrees to pay for getting the job done and the employee agrees to do that job for that amount. If someone is willing to agree to take a job which pays $3/hr with the hope that the business' customers will feel sorry for them being stupid enough to work for that pay and kick in more money then they have that right. But they have no right to extort money from me by REFUSING TO DO THE JOB THEY AGREED TO until I pay more than I contracted for, for the service I expect.
> 
> Say you went to the grocery store and the checker told you if you didn't agree to give her a 'tip' equal to 10% of your bill she 'might' take longer to scan your food and she just 'might accidentally' scan a few things twice and not notice. Would you agree to pay 10% more to get the service you expect from the grocery store? Or would you contact the manager? What if he told you one of the reasons he could sell food so cheaply was by screwing his help by paying them so little they had to beg or extort more money out the customers?
> 
> ...


1 Timothy 5
18 For the Scripture says, âDo not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,âand *âThe worker deserves his wages*

There is plenty to be said about those who DO NOT pay the wages due to workers.

Like it or not, YOU KNOW that servers make 2.13 an hour PLUS TIPS.
Like it or not, YOU KNOW that it is 15% for good service and 20% for great service.
Like it or not, YOU KNOW that this is the system for dining in a restaurant with table service.

When you KNOW what you know, yet CHOOSE to NOT tip......you are not paying the 'worker' his or her wages.....

That's on you.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

watcher said:


> I have told restaurants I *would not* be using them to host retirement/Christmas/promotion/etc parties because they told me with a group, even with advanced notice, would be charged extra. There are places out there who are willing to take our $600+ dollars worth of business w/o charging us $690+ for it.


If you could find a place that ONLY charges 15% gratuity, you are lucky.
Most charge 18-22%.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

HermitJohn said:


> Life is a gamble. Any enterprise to make money is a gamble.


I am self employed which is enough of a gamble but one I can control.

I know people who lose thousands of dollar they cannot afford to lose every month. That is stupid.


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

watcher said:


> And as I have said before I avoid eating in full service restaurants because of this system. I will not all any restaurant which charges me a surcharge because I bring a large amount of business (the automatic "tip" for groups, usually over 6). To be honest with I know of no other business which screws people for using their service for bringing in a large amount of business. Why would I use some place which is going to charge me a surcharge of 15% if I bring in 29 people for a meal? Does it cost them more to serve 29 people who just happen to come in as a group than if 29 strangers walked in?


Sounds like this works out for everyone - you don't have to deal with each other. It may well be that it costs more to serve 29 people together than separately. Large groups typically hold up the tables from other customers longer than smaller groups, sometimes 2 hours or more.

There are always people who want to take advantage of others and people who don't want to pay their fair share. At a large table where people agree to split the total, odds are there are people who then order the most expensive items, or who skimp on what they owe regardless. Likewise, someone footing the bill for everyone may see that large total and skimp on what they can from a legal standpoint - the tip. Since it's such a chronic problem for large groups, restaurants look out for their waitstaff's best interests, as well as their own, since the staff won't quit on them or refuse working large parties due to lack of financial reward (tipping).



> I have told restaurants I *would not* be using them to host retirement/Christmas/promotion/etc parties because they told me with a group, even with advanced notice, would be charged extra. There are places out there who are willing to take our $600+ dollars worth of business w/o charging us $690+ for it.


Since these are the businesses that actually care about the welfare of their servers, they may well happily bid you adieu. 

Just because you are not legally obligated to leave a tip if the service is good, does not mean you are not ethically obligated. Likewise, if a tip is automatically tacked on to the bill, I would expect good service - and complain if it were not. It is simply unethical to take advantage of the fact that tipping is not required by law. You demoralize the person who just served you. On purpose. You DO consider them "stupid enough" to work for such a low hourly rate, and that says a lot about you.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> When you KNOW what you know, yet CHOOSE to NOT tip......you are not paying the 'worker' his or her wages.....
> 
> That's on you.


When I patronize a BUSINESS, I am NOT contracting separately with their employees, I am contracting with the BUSINESS. The BUSINESS is contracting with their employees. The BUSINESS is responsible for compensating those employees. 

I strongly support all waiting staff to make at least national minimum wage, they should not be required to beg nor expect almsgiving from the customers. Their employer should be required to pay full minimum wage, not some special sub-minimum wage based on charity alms the waiting staff may or may not receive.

The situation with waiting staff is why WE NEED MINIMUM WAGE LAWS and we need to enforce them. Without such laws, employers will try to take advantage of all people desperate for a job.

Its also starting to look like we need to legislate that any employer only offering part time labor at bare minimum cooperate with the employee in holding multiple jobs. Expecting an employee to be at beck and call anytime needed means they cant hold multiple jobs, yet cant live on part time wages. How to screw and extort an employee doing this.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

laura zone 5 said:


> *âthe worker deserves his wages*


*from his employer*


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

HermitJohn said:


> When I patronize a BUSINESS, I am NOT contracting separately with their employees, I am contracting with the BUSINESS. The BUSINESS is contracting with their employees. The BUSINESS is responsible for compensating those employees.
> 
> I strongly support all waiting staff to make at least national minimum wage, they should not be required to beg nor expect almsgiving from the customers. Their employer should be required to pay full minimum wage, not some special sub-minimum wage based on charity alms the waiting staff may or may not receive.
> 
> ...


The one thing that others are failing to mention is that there are minimum wage laws in place to protect the servers wages.

If the server does not make $7.15/hr (or whatever your min wage is) after tips the business is then required to pay them the $7.15 instead of only the $2.13/hr. So one way or another they are making at least $7.15 with no tips required. So what makes them so special they think they deserve more than min wage without getting it in writing from their employer?

Edited to add: Have you guys ever had a commisioned sales job? That's a scam and a half. If you don't make a commision of min wage they will pay you min wage but then you have to pay it back on your next check that is above min wage. At least servers don't have to pay their $2.13/hr back to the company. So I'll be sitting here waiting for my tips please.


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

FeralFemale said:


> I am really, really....REALLY...shocked that there are so many people who think it is ok not to tip.


Maybe a bit surprised...But not really Shocked. Different demographics act differently.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Minimum wage to wait on horrible people? Are you kidding?
No way.
There is NO WAY I would have waited tables / bartended 30+ years if I had to put up the fertilizer I had to put up with for minimum wage.

Pay servers 7.25 an hour no tips.......and restaurants will close up by the hundreds.

If I wanted to get paid carp wages and put up with rude, demanding, cheap people, I'd be a cashier at Walmart.

Yeah, no thanks

Glad tighwads and cheapskates are the exception....not the norm!!


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

HermitJohn said:


> *from his employer*


Like it or not, *YOU KNOW* that servers make 2.13 an hour PLUS TIPS.
Like it or not, *YOU KNOW* that it is 15% for good service and 20% for great service.
Like it or not, *YOU KNOW* that this is the system for dining in a restaurant with table service.

When you KNOW what you know, yet CHOOSE to NOT tip......you are not paying the 'worker' his or her wages.....

That's on you.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Minimum wage to wait on horrible people? Are you kidding?
> No way.
> There is NO WAY I would have waited tables / bartended 30+ years if I had to put up the fertilizer I had to put up with for minimum wage.
> 
> ...


Talk about entitlement, so its ok for the cashiers at walmart to do that type of work for min. wage but its not for servers like you?

Restaurants wouldn't close up by the hundreds they would end up paying their help more, thats the law of supply and demand.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

blooba said:


> Talk about entitlement, so its ok for the cashiers at walmart to do that type of work for min. wage but its not for servers like you?


Apple, meet Orange
It's explained to the cashier that she will be paid minimum wage.
7.25 an hour.
Just like it's explained to servers, they are paid 2.13 an hour, plus tips.
We learn how to roll with cheapskates. Thank God they are few and far between!



> Restaurants wouldn't close up by the hundreds they would end up paying their help more, thats the law of supply and demand.


No, because no one in their right mind would wait on the general public for minimum wage. NO workers, no business.
Unless you have been in the business for multiple years, you will have NO idea what I am talking about!!


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Apple, meet Orange
> It's explained to the cashier that she will be paid minimum wage.
> 7.25 an hour.
> Just like it's explained to servers, they are paid 2.13 an hour, plus tips.
> ...


lol, you have named multiple positions that wait on the general public for min wage (non tipped) yet you say NO one would. I deal with the general public everyday so YES I do have an idea of what your talking about.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

blooba said:


> Edited to add: Have you guys ever had a commisioned sales job? That's a scam and a half. If you don't make a commision of min wage they will pay you min wage but then you have to pay it back on your next check that is above min wage. At least servers don't have to pay their $2.13/hr back to the company. So I'll be sitting here waiting for my tips please.


Just about every job I ever had was commission based pay. Never ever made less than minimum wage while working for my money.... but probably came in under the wire a few times as a desk jockey selling real estate. Spent an awful lot of hours, days, weeks and some times months waiting for the phone to not ring. It had its advantages though... it put me in the right place at the right time to do very well with investments. Had I been working with stocks instead of real estate, the sec would have locked me up and thrown away the key for doing what is perfectly normal, legal, standard practice in the real estate game. I also accepted tips... but always made sure they went through my broker.... in my state (an most others) there are rules about such things that must be adhered to.


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## wally (Oct 9, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Like it or not, *YOU KNOW* that servers make 2.13 an hour PLUS TIPS.
> Like it or not, *YOU KNOW* that it is 15% for good service and 20% for great service.
> Like it or not, *YOU KNOW* that this is the system for dining in a restaurant with table service.
> 
> ...


Does this also mean that I can deduct 15% for poor service and 20% for terrible service.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

wally said:


> Does this also mean that I can deduct 15% for poor service and 20% for terrible service.


Yep.. if the service is really lousy.... you can certainly leave nothing by way of a tip... a penny is usually more effective though... it lets them know you didnt forget... you just thought the service was lousy.


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## machinistmike (Oct 16, 2011)

Pearl B said:


> I seem to have the opposite problem. Often I have to track the server down to get the ticket after being left to sit for 15-20 mins. I want to leave soon after I eat, not spend the night or play catch the server.


try asking for the bill as your server is putting your plate in front of you. Keep in mind that more often than not your server is a multi-tasking maniac. They have 20 things that need to be done in the next 5 min. and they are only human, they forget. You never know, maybe a bunch of tables worth of food has hit the window and all hands are asked to get it out before the food dies. Also remember that you probably aren't the only person your server is responsible for so don't take it personal if you don't get your check as fast as you think you should.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yep.. if the service is really lousy.... you can certainly leave nothing by way of a tip... a penny is usually more effective though... it lets them know you didnt forget... you just thought the service was lousy.


You dern right you can. 
Over the years I have had at least 2 FREE MEALS because of p poor service or lousy food~!!!! And in another case price was reduced on the total bill. You bet you can complain and get satisfaction IF something is not what it should be.,


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

blooba said:


> lol, you have named multiple positions that wait on the general public for min wage (non tipped) yet you say NO one would. I deal with the general public everyday so YES I do have an idea of what your talking about.


LOL.... and guess which ones are the most pleasant, the most cheerful, and the most attentive... the ones who work for tips!!! (or commission!)


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

SunsetSonata said:


> LOL.... and guess which ones are the most pleasant, the most cheerful, and the most attentive... the ones who work for tips!!! (or commission!)


2012 Retail Chains With the Best Customer Experience - Customers Rank Best and Worst Companies - Temkin Customer Survey U.S. Retail Industry Rankings

I don't see too many commisioned or tipped businesses at the top.


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

watcher said:


> When I go into a 'full service' gas station I expect the guy to pump my gas for me because I'm paying extra for that service. When I go to a 'full service' restaurant I expect the waitress to bring my food because I'm paying extra for that service. In each case I'm entering into a contact with the business. The business agrees to provide a service at a price and I agree to pay that price for that service. When someone accepts a job they enter into a contract. The business agrees to pay for getting the job done and the employee agrees to do that job for that amount. If someone is willing to agree to take a job which pays $3/hr with the hope that the business' customers will feel sorry for them being stupid enough to work for that pay and kick in more money then they have that right. But they have no right to extort money from me by REFUSING TO DO THE JOB THEY AGREED TO until I pay more than I contracted for, for the service I expect.
> 
> Say you went to the grocery store and the checker told you if you didn't agree to give her a 'tip' equal to 10% of your bill she 'might' take longer to scan your food and she just 'might accidentally' scan a few things twice and not notice. Would you agree to pay 10% more to get the service you expect from the grocery store? Or would you contact the manager? What if he told you one of the reasons he could sell food so cheaply was by screwing his help by paying them so little they had to beg or extort more money out the customers?
> 
> ...


It's not the system you disagree with. It is having to pay someone when you can get away with not doing it.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/6049316-post3.html



watcher said:


> I use every legal way I can find to reduce the amount of taxes I pay. Don't you? I use every legal way I can find to make more money. Don't you? *I use every legal way I can find to pay as little as possible for the items I want. * Don't you? If we do it why would we be upset that someone else does as well?


And you think it is ethical to do it because you have never waited tables -- or worked in any capacity in a restaurant. This is obvious because 

You don't think it is real work, don't respect the people who do it, and think they are 'stupid'. 

You think that waiters would be better off making minimum wage when most, if they are good, can make far and above minimum wage and take the job for exactly that opportunity. 

You don't know the extra work and pressure, both for the restaurant and the servers, that a big party of people causes...or the way it affects the experience of other customers in the restaurant. 

You don't know what it is like, maybe not even what it means, when an incompetent hostess seats you five four-tops at the exact same time.

You don't know what its like to be 'slammed' or 'in the weeds'.

You don't know what it is like to run your behind off for a difficult customer, often at the expense of other customers' service, then have them stiff you on tip.

Etc, etc, etc.

Other anti-tippers in this thread show the same ignorance about waiting tables. And maybe that is the problem. I think if everyone had to work just one dinner service at a busy restaurant (not possible because an inexperienced waiter would never survive the first 20 minutes), and found out that waiting tables is much, much more than taking orders and delivering food, there would be no question about whether it is 'right' to tip a server. 

The only question should be, did I get bad, good, or excellent service? Then calculate your tip, accordingly.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

My parents eat out a lot...but they rarely go to big chain places. They eat at local Mom-and-Pop places. The servers know them, and know that they are easy going and that they tip well. 

My parents get excellent service. Servers will race each other to the door when they see my parents coming so they can seat them in their section.

I used to wait tables, and I hated every minute of it. But I did it and I get the concept. If there are two regulars, one known to be a good tipper and one who I know is going to leave me a dollar on a $60 tab, I'm going to bust my butt for the good tipper and do the bare minimum with the scrooge :shrug:.

My advice is that when you do eat out, choose the smaller family-owned places, chat up your servers, get to know the people who work there, and tip them well. They'll make sure you're taken care of!


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> 1 Timothy 5
> 18 For the Scripture says, âDo not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,âand *âThe worker deserves his wages*
> 
> There is plenty to be said about those who DO NOT pay the wages due to workers.
> ...


The worker is receiving her wage. You will note the Bible does not say that you should gather for the ox, take him from the yoke and feed him only allow him to eat as he wishes as payment for his work. You will also not that it says a worker deserves his wages not his wages _and more_.

I see your Timothy and raise you with Matthew 20:1-16.

_1âFor the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 âAbout nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, âYou also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.â 5 So they went.

âHe went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, âWhy have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?â

7 ââBecause no one has hired us,â they answered.

âHe said to them, âYou also go and work in my vineyard.â

8 âWhen evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his supervisor, âCall the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.â

9 âThe workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 âThese men who were hired last worked only one hour,â they said, âand you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.â

13 âBut he answered one of them, âFriend, I am not being unfair to you. Didnât you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Donât I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?â _

Did the waitress agree to work for her denarius ($3/hr)? Was she paid her denarius ($3/hr)? If so she has no right to grumble because SHE AGREED TO WORK FOR THAT WAGE, just as the first workers agreed to work all day for their denarius.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> If you could find a place that ONLY charges 15% gratuity, you are lucky.
> Most charge 18-22%.


Does that show you how long its been since I've visited a restaurant which does that?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Like it or not, *YOU KNOW* that servers make 2.13 an hour PLUS TIPS.
> Like it or not, *YOU KNOW* that it is 15% for good service and 20% for great service.
> Like it or not, *YOU KNOW* that this is the system for dining in a restaurant with table service.
> 
> ...


I pay MY workers their wages. I'm not expected to pay someone elses.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

watcher said:


> The worker is receiving her wage. You will note the Bible does not say that you should gather for the ox, take him from the yoke and feed him only allow him to eat as he wishes as payment for his work. You will also not that it says a worker deserves his wages not his wages _and more_.
> 
> I see your Timothy and raise you with Matthew 20:1-16.
> 
> ...


The point you are missing here is this... Yes.. the waitress agrees to work for "x"... which is normally a minuscule "wage" from the boss... PLUS TIPS... a customary gratuity from the customer themselves which varies from customer to customer and waitress to waitress depending upon a variety of factors. A good waitress takes good care of her customers.... and a poor one not so much. This will be seen by the customers who will respond in any number of ways depending upon their frame of mind at the time. A good waitress might earn an average of 100 or 200 in tips per shift... while a slacker type with a bad attitude might not earn even 20 per shift. Some customers will tip them all about the same... other customers will show a sign of appreciation for good service with an above average tip. Others who for what ever reason will instead quote scripture to avoid feeling guilty and stiff the waitress simply because they can. A good friend of mine was a waiter back in the early seventies.... his "employer" did not pay him a wage of any kind... strictly working for tips. My good friend did quite well at his job and earned far more in tips than I did working as what is now known as a service technician in an auto dealership... (I was the grease monkey at that point in time) Now... not only did his employer not pay him one red cent... he charged my friend 200 bucks a week for the privilege of serving the guests! And yes... there was a long waiting list for that job!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

watcher said:


> I pay MY workers their wages. I'm not expected to pay someone elses.


Ummm yes... you are.... in some circumstance. Waiters and waitress work for you.... pay them their due.... or not.... its entirely up to you as to what kind of "employer" you want to be when someone else is catering to your whims.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The point you are missing here is this... Yes.. the waitress agrees to work for "x"... which is normally a minuscule "wage" from the boss... PLUS TIPS... a customary gratuity from the customer themselves which varies from customer to customer and waitress to waitress depending upon a variety of factors. A good waitress takes good care of her customers.... and a poor one not so much. This will be seen by the customers who will respond in any number of ways depending upon their frame of mind at the time. A good waitress might earn an average of 100 or 200 in tips per shift... while a slacker type with a bad attitude might not earn even 20 per shift. Some customers will tip them all about the same... other customers will show a sign of appreciation for good service with an above average tip. Others who for what ever reason will instead quote scripture to avoid feeling guilty and stiff the waitress simply because they can. A good friend of mine was a waiter back in the early seventies.... his "employer" did not pay him a wage of any kind... strictly working for tips. My good friend did quite well at his job and earned far more in tips than I did working as what is now known as a service technician in an auto dealership... (I was the grease monkey at that point in time) Now... not only did his employer not pay him one red cent... he charged my friend 200 bucks a week for the privilege of serving the guests! And yes... there was a long waiting list for that job!


I worked at a casino and did quite well. They still have jobs you have to pay to work there and the waiting list too!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Pearl B said:


> I worked at a casino and did quite well. They still have jobs you have to pay to work there and the waiting list too!


I always kinda wanted to get one of those kinds of jobs... but just never had the swave required to pull it off... just an old country boy dontcha know. I woulda starved to death in a week. My buddy however had it together, made good money, worked two nights a week, picked up a grand or so a month after paying his boss. Not sure where he picked up his mannerisms, pretty sure it wasnt during his navy stint... two years as a UDT Seal in Nam somehow doesnt sound like the kinda guy you would find picking up several hundred a night in tips at the Brown Derby :shrug:


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

wally said:


> Does this also mean that I can deduct 15% for poor service and 20% for terrible service.


YES!!
AND.....if the service is THAT BAD......you must tell the MOD. 
Good chances are, if the service was THAT BAD......he will comp all or a portion of your meal, as a way of saying "i'm sorry, please come back".

HECK NO I would not tip 15 or 20% for bad service!!


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

watcher said:


> I pay MY workers their wages. I'm not expected to pay someone elses.


You know the way the system works
You are not ignorant of how this system works. You fully understand.
You know servers are working, for tips, and you chose not to tip.
It's ok.
It's your choice.

You are an intelligent human being, who knows full well how this works. 
Base pay, 2.13 an hour PLUS TIPS.
You know when you sit down to be SERVED, that it is NOT built into the servers pay, that the service you are getting is rewarded / paid for by TIPS.
You chose to enjoy a service without paying for it.
When you get table service, you know she is working, for your tip.
It's all been explained to you and you know, that her 'income' is her tips.
*You know all this.*
And you choose not to tip.
It's ok.....it's your choice.


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

Watcher. You say waiters and waitresses are "stupid" and rely on "begging" for money or hoping people "feel sorry" for them. Not tipping for good service shows a total lack of respect. If you respected these strangers who serve you, you would grumble and gripe about the system - but still leave a tip for good service. You seem to value "principles" over people. Or perhaps, money over people. 

And yes, you ARE expected to pay your server according to the level of service he or she provides in a restaurant. It is the fault of no one here if you choose to live in your own reality and deny this fact.

Are waitresses and waiters beneath you? I think it's the other way around.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

The only time I dont tip is when the server is horrible and MIA. We know tips are part of eating out, so we pay them. If I didnt want to tip, I would go to fast food and serve myself.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

FeralFemale said:


> It's not the system you disagree with. It is having to pay someone when you can get away with not doing it.
> 
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/6049316-post3.html


Apples and oranges. I'm not going to go to a restaurant and pay $15 for a hamburger when I can go to another and get one just as good for $5.




FeralFemale said:


> And you think it is ethical to do it because you have never waited tables -- or worked in any capacity in a restaurant. This is obvious because
> 
> You don't think it is real work, don't respect the people who do it, and think they are 'stupid'.


Its real work and so is digging ditches with a shovel. Say I told you I had hired someone do dig a 100 foot ditch and he agreed to do it for $2.15/hr and any money he finds laying on the ground. Would you call him smart?




FeralFemale said:


> You think that waiters would be better off making minimum wage when most, if they are good, can make far and above minimum wage and take the job for exactly that opportunity.


I don't think you'd get people to do the job for minimum wage. Or at least they wouldn't work it for long. 




FeralFemale said:


> You don't know the extra work and pressure, both for the restaurant and the servers, that a big party of people causes...or the way it affects the experience of other customers in the restaurant.


Explain it to me. Just how is it easier if 20 people who are not connected just walk in than if someone calls ahead to tell you there will be 20 people coming in at a set time?




FeralFemale said:


> You don't know what it is like, maybe not even what it means, when an incompetent hostess seats you five four-tops at the exact same time.
> 
> You don't know what its like to be 'slammed' or 'in the weeds'.
> 
> ...


Nope because I never would offer my labor to someone offering to pay me those wages. But all of those are a direct result of the tipping system and needing to have different zones or tables.




FeralFemale said:


> The only question should be, did I get bad, good, or excellent service? Then calculate your tip, accordingly.


Ok, is tipping a bonus, a surcharge or extortion? If I get the service I expect do I need to pay it? If so its a surcharge. If I'm only expected to pay when I get better service than I expected then its a bonus. If I'm expected to pay JUST to get the service I expect its extortion. 

As I said when I walk into a restaurant I expect the place to be clean; to get my order taken, delivered correctly and in a timely manner and the food to be good. It doesn't matter if its at a fast food joint or a 5 star restaurant. Do you expect less?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The point you are missing here is this... Yes.. the waitress agrees to work for "x"... which is normally a minuscule "wage" from the boss... PLUS TIPS... a customary gratuity from the customer themselves which varies from customer to customer and waitress to waitress depending upon a variety of factors. A good waitress takes good care of her customers.... and a poor one not so much. This will be seen by the customers who will respond in any number of ways depending upon their frame of mind at the time. A good waitress might earn an average of 100 or 200 in tips per shift... while a slacker type with a bad attitude might not earn even 20 per shift. Some customers will tip them all about the same... other customers will show a sign of appreciation for good service with an above average tip. Others who for what ever reason will instead quote scripture to avoid feeling guilty and stiff the waitress simply because they can. A good friend of mine was a waiter back in the early seventies.... his "employer" did not pay him a wage of any kind... strictly working for tips. My good friend did quite well at his job and earned far more in tips than I did working as what is now known as a service technician in an auto dealership... (I was the grease monkey at that point in time) Now... not only did his employer not pay him one red cent... he charged my friend 200 bucks a week for the privilege of serving the guests! And yes... there was a long waiting list for that job!


Are you saying you have no problem with a worker shirking the job he is being paid to do unless he is paid more than his wages? As I said how would you feel if the checker at the grocery store told you unless you paid her a "tip" she was going to check out your stuff as slowly as possible and she might just ring up a few items twice?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ummm yes... you are.... in some circumstance. Waiters and waitress work for you.... pay them their due.... or not.... its entirely up to you as to what kind of "employer" you want to be when someone else is catering to your whims.


No, they are SERVING me. They are working for the restaurant which is offering that service. Is the mailman working for you? Should you tip him to make sure he does the job he is being paid for?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> You know the way the system works
> You are not ignorant of how this system works. You fully understand.
> You know servers are working, for tips, and you chose not to tip.
> It's ok.
> ...


I know how it works and so does the waitress. They agree to work for their wages. If they don't think the pay is worth the work they should seek a different job.

As I have pointed out I do not go to restaurants (other than fast food joints and buffets in which I serve myself) just because of this. The same way I will not buy from companies because I will not give my money to a business which supports ideas I disagree with.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> The restaurant industry has ALWAYS paid considerably less than minimum wage, because gratuity is the nature of the restaurant industry. It's not a new concept.


 Nope way wrong on this IT IS A NEW THING IN THIS COUNTRY.
heck just watching old movies should be enough to show ya that.



Laura Zone 5 said:


> *So please, in all seriousness, help me to understand how someone can "hate the way this system is"......and go into "that system".......enjoy the service, demand the service, expect the service.......and not pay for it?*


 Is there another option in the resturant business/


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

watcher said:


> Apples and oranges. I'm not going to go to a restaurant and pay $15 for a hamburger when I can go to another and get one just as good for $5.
> 
> As I said when I walk into a restaurant I expect the place to be clean; to get my order taken, delivered correctly and in a timely manner and the food to be good. It doesn't matter if its at a fast food joint or a 5 star restaurant. Do you expect less?


I wouldnt pay $15 bucks for a hamburger either... but I wouldnt mind dropping a Cnote for a fine dining experience and an evening out with my lady. If you fail to see the difference between walking yourself up to the counter at mickey d's and being handed a sack of freshly steamed (sorta looks like there might be some meat in there somewhere) "burger" compared to being served a scrumptious meal in a bit nicer dining establishment... having your order taken by a pleasant person who is dedicated to making your dining experience a "cut above" the ordinary, running back and forth from the kitchen and bar, bringing you the delicacies of your choice, making sure your drinks are made to YOUR specifications while you sit on your duff running you hand up and down your dates legs under that nice long "selected just for such moments" tablecloth, and refuse to pay for this luxurious service....  then I only have 5 words for you.... "Ya want fries with that?"

oh, and your lady friend is most likely NOT going to be all that impressed with you either... you will most likely be asked to drop her off at her door... something about a migraine and dont call me, I'll call you. Sound familiar? I've been told that Titewads and jerks hear it a lot.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

fantasymaker said:


> Nope way wrong on this IT IS A NEW THING IN THIS COUNTRY.
> heck just watching old movies should be enough to show ya that.
> 
> 
> Is there another option in the resturant business/


I dunno how old the movies you watch are.... but all the ones I watch show people leaving the waitress/waiter tips. :shrug: This "new" custom has to be a little older than you realize... I am sixty one and have been observing the phenomenon since I was old enough to see over the table top in my mamas lap!


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

I'm 55 and must have watched the wrong movies...thank goodness. My uncle was a long distance trucker who always tipped well. The banter and kindness of the waitress made a tough job easier. Flo...you rock!


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I dunno how old the movies you watch are.... but all the ones I watch show people leaving the waitress/waiter tips. :shrug: This "new" custom has to be a little older than you realize... I am sixty one and have been observing the phenomenon since I was old enough to see over the table top in my mamas lap!


Yep You are correct in your observations and memories. The way I understand it this insult to america started with doughboys coming home from Europe after the first world war trying to look sophistaicated after their european tour.
It was continued and far expanded when The GIs returned after WWII.
You often see it mentioned one way or the other in movies of the interwar period.


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

fantasymaker said:


> Yep You are correct in your observations and memories. The way I understand it this insult to america started with doughboys coming home from Europe after the first world war trying to look sophistaicated after their european tour.
> It was continued and far expanded when The GIs returned after WWII.
> You often see it mentioned one way or the other in movies of the interwar period.


Not likely. My grandfather was a WW2 vet who tipped. He certainly wasn't an insult to America or a follower of fads. He quite simply knew it was the right thing to do...period.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

> =Yvonne's hubby;6052138]oh, and your lady friend is most likely NOT going to be all that impressed with you either... you will most likely be asked to drop her off at her door... something about a migraine and dont call me, I'll call you. Sound familiar? I've been told that Titewads and jerks hear it a lot.


Very true. If I dated a guy that was cheap and did not pay for the meal and leave a nice tip, I would be appalled. Adios. While you are at it open the door and treat me like a princess. Chivalry is not dead. You will get back what you put out there, 10-fold.


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> oh, and your lady friend is most likely NOT going to be all that impressed with you either... you will most likely be asked to drop her off at her door... something about a migraine and dont call me, I'll call you. Sound familiar? I've been told that Titewads and jerks hear it a lot.


Completely true. There's no way I would want to be with someone who treated others so poorly. Let alone defended it, lol!


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## acde (Jul 25, 2011)

Oldcountryboy said:


> I usually tip 15 percent and the best way to figure that out is to look at your total bill and in your head move the decimal point over to the left one number and that would be 10 percent. Then divide that 10 percent figure and add half back to the 10 percent. Say for instant the ticket comes out to $40.00 . Move the decimal over one and it is now $4.000, which would be $4. Now divide that in half and it comes out to $2. Add the $2 back to the $4., and you have a 15% total of $6. to tip the waiter/waitress with.


Or if your like me just double the tax. lol


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

fantasymaker said:


> Yep You are correct in your observations and memories. The way I understand it this insult to america started with doughboys coming home from Europe after the first world war trying to look sophistaicated after their european tour.
> It was continued and far expanded when The GIs returned after WWII.
> You often see it mentioned one way or the other in movies of the interwar period.


Ok, I took a quick stroll down google lane... sorry, but my curiosity got the better of me. After reading several articles on the history of tipping in our country it becomes fairly clear that this peculiar habit got started right after the war.... but not ww1 or ww2... this custom in our country got its start shortly after the war of northern aggression. The historians in charge of such matters all seem to agree that after the war of northern aggression a good number of the wealthy nawtherners traveled to the old country where tipping the lower class "servants" had been popular for a couple hundred years. (Tipping seems to have evolved from buying the server in pubs a drink in the 16th century.) These snooty nawtherners began immediately tipping our own good citizens who worked at these service jobs... not so much because they felt the little workers deserved anything extra... but rather to show off their own status of being a world traveler. The custom took hold rapidly across our great land... much to the chagrin of a few tightfisted dogooders who argued that it was demeaning to the workers and laws were actually passed to prohibit the practice in the late 1800s. Those laws however were ignored and went unenforced and the service industry has become very dependent upon tips as a result. The most prevalent of course is restaurant and bar servers, but then there are others who rely heavily upon tips for their living as well, such as cab drivers and bell hops.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

homefire2007 said:


> Not likely. My grandfather was a WW2 vet who tipped. He certainly wasn't an insult to America or a follower of fads. He quite simply knew it was the right thing to do...period.


Sounds like more like what I said.
In any case doing evil isnt excused. Its the Practice that is evil not usually the person doing it from ignorance.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

fantasymaker said:


> Sounds like more like what I said.
> In any case doing evil isnt excused. Its the Practice that is evil not usually the person doing it from ignorance.


I fail to see the evil in showing ones appreciation to a fellow human being when they provide a service to you. perhaps you could enlighten me. :shrug:


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

A good server can make 3 or 4 or even more times what they would get by working for minimum wage (some get much more).
Would you rather they get paid minimum wage? Wheres the incentive there?
Servers work for sub minimum wage because they know they can earn $20, $30, $50 or even more an hour if they are good (depending on where they work). A woman I know at Church makes an average of $45 an hour at a local Mexican restaurant. Do you want her to give that up for $7.25 an hour job? People work as a server because is one of the few jobs you CAN make good money without a college education (or even a high school education for that matter).

Go to a fast food joint and see what kind of service you get compared to the type of service you get from a server working for tips in a full service restaurant.


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## Fonzie (Nov 5, 2003)

mnn2501 said:


> A good server can make 3 or 4 or even more times what they would get by working for minimum wage (some get much more).
> Would you rather they get paid minimum wage? Wheres the incentive there?
> Servers work for sub minimum wage because they know they can earn $20, $30, $50 or even more an hour if they are good (depending on where they work). A woman I know at Church makes an average of $45 an hour at a local Mexican restaurant. Do you want her to give that up for $7.25 an hour job? People work as a server because is one of the few jobs you CAN make good money without a college education (or even a high school education for that matter).
> 
> Go to a fast food joint and see what kind of service you get compared to the type of service you get from a server working for tips in a full service restaurant.


====================================================================


This whole thread reminds me of Pulp Fiction



Mr. White: "Waitressing is the number one occupation for female non college graduates in this country. It's the one job basically any woman can get and make a living on. The reason is their tips".



.


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

Fonzie said:


> ====================================================================
> 
> 
> This whole thread reminds me of Pulp Fiction
> ...


That was Reservoir Dogs.


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## Fonzie (Nov 5, 2003)

FeralFemale said:


> That was Reservoir Dogs.




You're correct, my bad...




.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I fail to see the evil in showing ones appreciation to a fellow human being when they provide a service to you. perhaps you could enlighten me. :shrug:


Because your supporting a system that takes advantage of your fellow man.
If NOBODY tipped the practice would cease.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I fail to see the evil in showing ones appreciation to a fellow human being when they provide a service to you. perhaps you could enlighten me. :shrug:


Went out for breakfast yesterday with good friends and it was so nice to be asked if I wanted more coffee etc. Coming back time and again asking if everything was ok. That then was her reward for doing a great job. Period.
and a nice tip was left behind also.
It is this kind of above and beyond just sitting you down taking your order and then not seeing a person till she brings the check. What in the world is wrong with that?
ALL her "job" was to seat us, take our order, and bring us the check.
She and many many others go above that and really "Take Care Of Their Customers" And for doing that they get tipped. Simple as that.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Ak interesting that you would define her job at such a low quality.
I have been to very good High end resturants where tipping was not allowed and got better treat ment than you discribe as the job.
LOL heck Ive even gotten better treatment on planes and that sort of service is actually their second job, safety is their first.
Do you tip on Planes?


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

Had a lovely breakfast with my DS. Service was great and food excellent. Of course before we went, I made sure I had plenty to tip with  I don't go out often, but will continue to have breakfast there every now and again. Left a nice big tip to show my appreciation  Funny thing was: I didn't feel un-American about it at all.:cowboy:


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

fantasymaker said:


> Because your supporting a system that takes advantage of your fellow man.
> If NOBODY tipped the practice would cease.


I would still tip... discretely... just like I do now in big box stores and other places where tipping is not allowed when someone goes out of their way to assist me. In my mind a tip is not the same as paying for a service... its a gift to someone who has shown me a special kindness. The barber who goes out of his way to make getting a haircut a special experience, the waitress who goes out of her way to make my dining experience a cut above the ordinary, the clerk who giftwraps a purchase I have made, the electrician who not only fixes the problem, but shows me how to make the repairs myself next time, the guy at the gas station who washes the windshield, checks the oil, and checks the tire pressure on the tires without being asked... all the little things that people do, deserve a reward of some kind. It encourages them to keep making the extra effort that makes my own life easier. Whats a buck or twenty here and there to make someone understand that their efforts are indeed appreciated? 
I was at the local farmers market this morning and picked up a few fresh veggies, the bill came to 9 bucks... I handed the kind lady a ten and told her the extra buck was hers for "putting up with me". Its not part of the job description to take the extra care she always takes to make sure each tomato or each pepper is "up snuff" nor to carry my veggies to my truck... but she always does... and she listens patiently to my tall tales, even laughs at my jokes, makes the stop at the farmers market much more than bringing home some nutrition.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

fantasymaker said:


> Because your supporting a system that takes advantage of your fellow man.
> If NOBODY tipped the practice would cease.


Great idea. Let's try it. Lets not tip the guy picking grapes or lettuce and see how quick they start earning a living wage.

If no one tipped the watress, the law would change so she'd get minimum wage. That 60% loss in wage would have her short saling that two bedroom flat and on welfare inside of a year. Darn greedy waitress, she shouldn't have bought a house she couldn't afford anyway. 

I doubt there are any people that have waited tables for a living that think it is easy.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

mnn2501 said:


> Go to a fast food joint and see what kind of service you get compared to the type of service you get from a server working for tips in a full service restaurant.




This is pretty much universally true....but I am still amazed at the service you get in a Chic-Fil-A.

They do an amazing job of training their young workers.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I wouldnt pay $15 bucks for a hamburger either... but I wouldnt mind dropping a Cnote for a fine dining experience and an evening out with my lady. If you fail to see the difference between walking yourself up to the counter at mickey d's and being handed a sack of freshly steamed (sorta looks like there might be some meat in there somewhere) "burger" compared to being served a scrumptious meal in a bit nicer dining establishment... having your order taken by a pleasant person who is dedicated to making your dining experience a "cut above" the ordinary, running back and forth from the kitchen and bar, bringing you the delicacies of your choice, making sure your drinks are made to YOUR specifications while you sit on your duff running you hand up and down your dates legs under that nice long "selected just for such moments" tablecloth, and refuse to pay for this luxurious service.... then I only have 5 words for you.... "Ya want fries with that?"


Thank you very much for proving my point. You pay for the product you expect. When you go out expecting "a fine dining experience" you expect to 'drop a Cnote'. Now what would you do if after you had finished that Cnote meal you got a bill for an Dnote? When you asked about the extra CD the waiter told you there was a Cnote charge for providing dishes and flatware, a Cnote for providing a table, a Cnote for the chairs and a Cnote for totaling your check. 

Or if after you were seated your waiter told you, you either give him a Lnote or you wouldn't see him again for 20 minutes and when you FINALLY got your food it'd be ice cold. Would you think its a tip or would you think you were being extorted?





Yvonne's hubby said:


> oh, and your lady friend is most likely NOT going to be all that impressed with you either... you will most likely be asked to drop her off at her door... something about a migraine and dont call me, I'll call you. Sound familiar? I've been told that Titewads and jerks hear it a lot.


Actually if I dropped "Cnote for a fine dining experience and an evening out with my lady" I'd probably be the one with the headache. The one I got when my lady hit me in the head for spending that much on one meal.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I fail to see the evil in showing ones appreciation to a fellow human being when they provide a service to you. perhaps you could enlighten me. :shrug:


So you tip EVERYONE who provides you a service? Or just the ones who you think will not provide you the service you have already paid for unless you 'tip' them? Again I ask if the cashier at the store told you if you didn't give her a $20 "tip" she would check your items very slowly and might just make a 'mistake' and charge you twice for an item or two.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I would still tip... discretely... just like I do now in big box stores and other places where tipping is not allowed when someone goes out of their way to assist me. In my mind a tip is not the same as paying for a service... its a gift to someone who has shown me a special kindness. The barber who goes out of his way to make getting a haircut a special experience, the waitress who goes out of her way to make my dining experience a cut above the ordinary, the clerk who giftwraps a purchase I have made, the electrician who not only fixes the problem, but shows me how to make the repairs myself next time, the guy at the gas station who washes the windshield, checks the oil, and checks the tire pressure on the tires without being asked... all the little things that people do, deserve a reward of some kind. It encourages them to keep making the extra effort that makes my own life easier. Whats a buck or twenty here and there to make someone understand that their efforts are indeed appreciated?
> I was at the local farmers market this morning and picked up a few fresh veggies, the bill came to 9 bucks... I handed the kind lady a ten and told her the extra buck was hers for "putting up with me". Its not part of the job description to take the extra care she always takes to make sure each tomato or each pepper is "up snuff" nor to carry my veggies to my truck... but she always does... and she listens patiently to my tall tales, even laughs at my jokes, makes the stop at the farmers market much more than bringing home some nutrition.


Ah. . .you do realize that you are taking a chance of getting those people fired don't you? If a store has a no tipping policy the odds are 99.9999% that taking a tip is a terminable action. How would you feel if that extra 5 or 10 bucks you slipped the guy wound up costing him his job?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

haypoint said:


> Great idea. Let's try it. Lets not tip the guy picking grapes or lettuce and see how quick they start earning a living wage.
> 
> If no one tipped the watress, the law would change so she'd get minimum wage. That 60% loss in wage would have her short saling that two bedroom flat and on welfare inside of a year. Darn greedy waitress, she shouldn't have bought a house she couldn't afford anyway.
> 
> I doubt there are any people that have waited tables for a living that think it is easy.



Hum. . .there are grape pickers dying? After all they are not making a living wage therefore they must be.


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## solidwoods (Dec 23, 2005)

poppy said:


> Tipping used to be a gift to waiters for good service and we always tip the standard rate unless the service is poor. Now more and more restaurants are using tips as an income source and it should be illegal IMO. My 16 YO granddaughter got a part time job recently at Pizza Hut. They do pay her minimum wage but all her tips go toward that minimum wage. The other day she worked the lunch period for 2 and 1/2 hours and collected $30.00 in tips, which she has to turn in. They paid her less in wages for that time than she took in in tips. Other restaurants make the waiters put their tips in a pot and divide them equally, sometimes including the cooks. The restaurant itself often gets an equal cut. That does away with the incentive to provide good service IMO.


Say what? She made tips and mgmt made her give the tips to Pizza Hut?
I'd tell the manager to go get the tip himself.
I'd also tell the customer if they tip it doesn't go to me it goes to Pizza Hut.
The Pizza Hut must be paying her Fed min wage for employment,, not min wage for tip employees.

I lived in Italy for 4 yrs and Germany for 3 yrs. The waitstaff pay is different there. They make hourly wage and no tips. Typically people will round the bill up to the nearest $. 
So what you get for service is:
I'll get to you when I feel like it.
Order everything you want the first time I take your order because I'm not coming back to check on you.
If you need something during your meal you'll have to tackle me and hold my hand to the kitchen.
I've also seen the waitstaff spill a drink serving the table and we had to still pay for the drink. It was OK though,, my wife got to wear it home.

What is the sales tax in It. and Ge.?
Germany 19%
Italy 19-29%
Oh yea we want to be like Europe.
Try paying 29% sales tax it will change your life.

Now ask me about Socialized medicine (it's a horror story).
jim


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