# I guess theres 3 distinct classes or people here



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

#1 Those who post and get infractions

#2 Those who post, and dont 

#3 Those who dont do either.


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

#4 Those who post...nothing...hehe


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

#5 Those who got an infraction on another part of HT where it's really G (okay, not the goat forum--some of those pictures they post!) and have managed to receive none here.


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## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

katydidagain said:


> #5 Those who got an infraction on another part of HT where it's really G (okay, not the goat forum--some of those pictures they post!) and have managed to receive none here.


Oh, I don't know that it's only the goat forum. This thread from the rabbit forum, for instance . . . Warning! Spew alert! Don't say I didn't warn you!


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Narshalla said:


> Oh, I don't know that it's only the goat forum. This thread from the rabbit forum, for instance . . . Warning! Spew alert! Don't say I didn't warn you!


Maybe the raucous ones here so go post there or even on the Pet forum where they can say a LOT of words that are not G, post really nasty pictures and nobody blinks. Guess the 13 year olds aren't interested in such.


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## Groene Pionier (Apr 23, 2009)

Narshalla said:


> Oh, I don't know that it's only the goat forum. This thread from the rabbit forum, for instance . . . Warning! Spew alert! Don't say I didn't warn you!


As of now I am going to be a regular on those two forums, that is hilarious!


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

OMG if we posted any part of that thread here we would be banned. I guess what is posted on the rabbit forum can't be viewed by children?


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## sherry in Maine (Nov 22, 2007)

wow, I was eating cheese and crackers when I Read that..........nearly choked to death while laughing....


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Yeah, real farm kids are not shocked and traumatized by animal husbandry. It was the pastor's wife who taught us how to be a bunny molestors.

I think the kinds of people here at ST are the Wannabees, Neverwills and the Hasbeens. Since I always was, I guess tht makes me a Hasbeen until I can put the farm back into production.


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

I got an infraction once... they gave me a long needle and a cup of some nasty tasting medicine ~ a week later and I was right as rain


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

I'll tell you what it does, makes me ssoooo glad that I have three boy bunnies and never have to do any of that, I about yacked the broccoli I was eating. LOL


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## Terri in WV (May 10, 2002)

Narshalla said:


> Oh, I don't know that it's only the goat forum. This thread from the rabbit forum, for instance . . . Warning! Spew alert! Don't say I didn't warn you!


That is way more detail than anything I've ever seen posted on here. All that can be said, and I would think more kids would be reading there then here, and some get in trouble for the mundane things that are said here. 

Good grief, what's good for the rabbits isn't good for the humans?!


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Terri in WV said:


> Good grief, what's good for the rabbits isn't good for the humans?!


Sadly, no.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Terri in WV said:


> Good grief, what's good for the rabbits isn't good for the humans?!


 Like forced breeding? Holding her down to make sure she gets bred and we get tastey babies?

Does anyone at ST actually practice animal husbandry in any capacity in Real Life?


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## Terri in WV (May 10, 2002)

Maybe we should be relocated to the livestock section and reclassified as **** sapiens(or Neanderthals) so that we can get a little action too?


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

Laura, sadly no, I only have 3 boy bunnies, 3 kitties, 1 dog, and 2 human boys. And before I used to have about 15 chickens before I moved into this house. When I move I want chickens again and I did want a goat until I read about the goats and how much goes on in the ST forum. Goats might be out. Oh, and I get no action by choice, lol.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

There are those who DO, and those who talk about it. 

Nobody is stopping anyone from going out and getting some action.


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

This is evil but I honestly think we should visit the "animal" threads and start reporting posts that are not G rated. Fondling a female rabbit and forcing her to copulate...well...just not right.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

katydidagain said:


> This is evil but I honestly think we should visit the "animal" threads and start reporting posts that are not G rated. Fondling a female rabbit and forcing her to copulate...well...just not right.


 Yes it is. Those subforums were created because the animal husbandry topics are too disturbing for the delicate suburbanites who became the majority population of HT. Further degradation of the original intents and purposes of homesteading and farming in these forums would render them completely useless. Eventually there wouldn't even be enough manure to sling around.


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Laura said:


> Yes it is. Those subforums were created because the animal husbandry topics are too disturbing for the delicate suburbanites who became the majority population of HT. Further degradation of the original intents and purposes of homesteading and farming in these forums would render them completely useless. Eventually there wouldn't even be enough manure to sling around.


Yes but we're held to the "G" rating when they aren't? Hey, I'll comply but will consider it the height of hypocrisy.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

katydidagain said:


> Yes but we're held to the "G" rating when they aren't? Hey, I'll comply but will consider it the height of hypocrisy.


 See, this is where we differ. Animal husbandry is a neccessary function of us farming types. There is no morality involved in animal breeding, only genetics and production. Interpreting breeding practices of animals as somehow "dirty" boggles my mind.

I'm sure you could go to Countryside Families and discuss human genetics and the best way to get pregnant without ruffling feathers, but that's not your point, is it?


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

My point is that a child shouldn't be reading some of the threads in the animal forums.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

FarmboyBill said:


> #1 Those who post and get infractions
> 
> #2 Those who post, and dont
> 
> #3 Those who dont do either.


Well, duh!


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2013)

Good grief...
A child who's parents are participants on a HOMESTEADING forum .....not read about breeding animals? Are they blindfolded as they walk around their farms/mini-farms/rabbit hutches/chicken coops?


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## bstuart29 (Jul 11, 2006)

Laura said:


> See, this is where we differ. Animal husbandry is a neccessary function of us farming types. There is no morality involved in animal breeding, only genetics and production. Interpreting breeding practices of animals as somehow "dirty" boggles my mind.
> 
> I'm sure you could go to Countryside Families and discuss human genetics and the best way to get pregnant without ruffling feathers, but that's not your point, is it?


I don't see anyone couldn't see how they are different, a huge difference between the nature of breeding of animals and discussing human interaction.


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## Terri in WV (May 10, 2002)

It's the censorship of the words. It should be equal across the board.


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## bstuart29 (Jul 11, 2006)

Terri in WV said:


> It's the censorship of the words. It should be equal across the board.


There is a thing called taking things in context.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Laura said:


> Does anyone at ST actually practice animal husbandry in any capacity in Real Life?


Actually yes. 
Ive raised hen hatched chicks, and have a goat due to kid sometime in April. No forced breeding though.


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## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

I am the Mod for both the Goat and Rabbit forums.

If it fits the topic, text and photos can stay. If it turns into a laughfest with silly, juvenile comments, I will toss it down the mineshaft. 
I have yet to meet a farm kid who didnt know where babies came from.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Terri in WV said:


> It's the censorship of the words. It should be equal across the board.


 Since you wish to use those words, go to those forums and use them.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

Shygal said:


> Actually yes.
> Ive raised hen hatched chicks, and have a goat due to kid sometime in April. No forced breeding though.


I have tried hard to incubate eggs with a incubator but no such luck, even tried duck eggs because I wanted to do imprintation but again no such luck. When I do get back out to the country I am going to try again but until then I have to live my dream life through you guys.


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## Terri in WV (May 10, 2002)

It's not a matter of rather I want to use those words or not. 

As pointed out, the sub forums are owned by individual people. As it has also been repeatedly pointed out, the forums are all under HT and HT guidelines want a G rating. I have no problem with this, what I have the problem with is censorship of particular words in certain sections.

The words used in that link, no matter what the context, are words that I have never heard in any G rated format, nor for that matter, in PG13.


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## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

I prefer that people use the anatomically correct term for body parts.

I didnt see anything in that link that needed to be cleaned up. There was some useful information in that thread and it made me smile. No harm done.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Outa courisity, would someone go to the other forum amd tell me what these so called words are that are so nasty on the pother form. Other then the b witch word. I know its used with animal;s, and humans, or at least a good part of them


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2013)

And how many 4h classes on breeding are there? How many discussions on artificial insemination for goats/ cattle/ horses are there? Because words are used which detail anatomy of the animals, they wouldn't be rated "G" for HOMESTEADING people ?

Context is everything.. 
To put a breeding discussion in the same category as a bathroom banana "joke" makes no sense.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Folks, animal reproduction is part of homesteading life. 

It all depends on context. Cursing is not allowed on ST unless it is mild cursing like "Crap". Which is why a person can ask "who believes in Hell" and not be infracted, while if they use it as a curse word it might be.

A large part of homesteading isvolves livestock. Context again. A person having trouble getting their livestock pregnant can certainly come to HOMESTEADINGTODAY to discuss the problems.

And, now, I will give fair warning: if this thread degenrates into juvenile s------ing over the idea that animals actually have reproductive organs, I will either lock the thread or delete it.


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

Laura said:


> Like forced breeding? Holding her down to make sure she gets bred and we get tastey babies?
> 
> Does anyone at ST actually practice animal husbandry in any capacity in Real Life?


.
I have raised rabbits (and restrained does during breeding). I have had Alaskan Malamutes and Akitas......and once took a male to the vet to get a sperm count done. I have raised a few pigs. I have dairy goats and the bucks are something else when they are in their rut. I have also taken bucks to have their semen collected so that I can do AI with their semen in the future. I have done AI (Artificial Insemination) with the goats. I have seen AI done on cows (some people refer to it as the 'slippery sleeve' procedure.)

Is it obvious who did not grow up on a farm???


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2013)

In a few more weeks, I'll be 62 years old. 55 years of eidetic memory have left me near madness. The meanest person I've ever known never swore in public, was always "nice" and never had any bad habits. The kindest, most decent person I ever knew drank all the time, swore like a drunk sailor, was a lifelong thief, and killed 2 women. Words is just words.


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## WhyNot (Jun 21, 2011)

I cannot be the only one that cannot believe this conversation is even happening. Is this the junior high section of HT?


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

billooo2 said:


> .
> I have raised rabbits (and restrained does during breeding). I have had Alaskan Malamutes and Akitas......and once took a male to the vet to get a sperm count done. I have raised a few pigs. I have dairy goats and the bucks are something else when they are in their rut. I have also taken bucks to have their semen collected so that I can do AI with their semen in the future. I have done AI (Artificial Insemination) with the goats. I have seen AI done on cows (some people refer to it as the 'slippery sleeve' procedure.)
> 
> Is it obvious who did not grow up on a farm???


Is it?

I watched AI as a child; they didn't keep a bull at my grandparents' dairy farm in upstate NY. They had 2000 Leghorns; they didn't have a single roo. I raised chickens when I was 8 to 10 and again as an adult. 2 years ago I went out and purchased a broody RSL a dozen eggs because my roos were attacked by a mink, 2 ***** and a skunk (all trapped and dispatched but too late). Nadia hatched out and raised 8. 

I grew up with ponies. I'm an avid gardener. I've stepped in many a fresh cow pie. I'm looking forward to a new garden adventure in a zone I've never encountered.

On my father's side they own a 250 year old farm; on my mother's side they actually homesteaded 160 acres in Albuquerque.

Yeah, it's really obvious who grew up on a farm, isn't it?


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2013)

katydidagain said:


> Is it?
> 
> I watched AI as a child; they didn't keep a bull at my grandparents' dairy farm in upstate NY. They had 2000 Leghorns; they didn't have a single roo. I raised chickens when I was 8 to 10 and again as an adult. 2 years ago I went out and purchased a broody RSL a dozen eggs because my roos were attacked by a mink, 2 ***** and a skunk (all trapped and dispatched but too late). Nadia hatched out and raised 8.
> 
> ...


and even so, you don't think a farm child should be reading about animal husbandry?
why not?


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

bostonlesley said:


> and even so, you don't think a farm child should be reading about animal husbandry?
> why not?


 I believe I said (or tried to say) that there was a double standard on HT and I stand by that. I have no problems living by the rules of this forum; I speak French very rarely and generally under my breath plus have no need (deliberate nones don't) for gratuitous sexual innuendo.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2013)

katydidagain said:


> I believe I said (or tried to say) that there was a double standard on HT and I stand by that. I have no problems living by the rules of this forum; I speak French very rarely and generally under my breath plus have no need (deliberate nones don't) for gratuitous sexual innuendo.


All I know of your opinion is what you wrote..post #22 in this topic..
I wasn't referring to the rules of ST..rather your statement regarding a child ought not to be reading about animal breeding..

Since you grew up on a very large farming effort, including AI, but now are of the opinion that a child ought not to read about it..what brought you to that opinion?I'm genuinely curious..


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

bostonlesley said:


> All I know of your opinion is what you wrote..post #22 in this topic..
> I wasn't referring to the rules of ST..rather your statement regarding a child ought not to be reading about animal breeding..
> 
> Since you grew up on a very large farming effort, including AI, but now are of the opinion that a child ought not to read about it..what brought you to that opinion?I'm genuinely curious..


Holy cow how the heck do you interpolate anything about breeding out of what I said in #22?

_My point is that a child shouldn't be reading some of the threads in the animal forums..

_Amazing, just amazing.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

rileyjo said:


> I have yet to meet a farm kid who didnt know where babies came from.


 
My kids have experienced rabbits, chickens, goats and sheep breeding here at home. They don't even blink. It is what it is and they know it has to happen if they want new babies. 
I suppose anyone can make nature look perverse if they try hard enough.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2013)

katydidagain said:


> Holy cow how the heck do you interpolate anything about breeding out of what I said in #22?
> 
> _My point is that a child shouldn't be reading some of the threads in the animal forums..
> 
> _Amazing, just amazing.


I beg your pardon.. Since the posts in the forum which were being discussed specifically concerned breeding techniques, and you were objecting to the acceptable words used in those posts... When you then wrote that a child shouldnt be reading some of the threads in the animal forums, it seemed logical to me that you were continuing to refer to the threads under discussion.. The breeding techniques...

So what topics in the animal forums were you referencing


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## bstuart29 (Jul 11, 2006)

katydidagain said:


> I believe I said (or tried to say) that there was a double standard on HT and I stand by that. I have no problems living by the rules of this forum; I speak French very rarely and generally under my breath plus have no need (deliberate nones don't) for gratuitous sexual innuendo.


There is no double standard when you look at the situation and the context of it. Some want to try to stir things up when all they do is make themselves look foolish.


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Hey, you win. You much smahter than me.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2013)

Win????????
Dang it.. I was genuinely interested in what you found objectionable after reading how you grew up around livestock..
It wasn t a contest......
Think what you like...


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Animal sex practices are animal husbandry and under the jurisdictions of the animal husbandry and care forums moderators. Often they toss threads also as we do here.

Human sex practices are a more delicate topic discussed with a degree of morality. Those who chose to have such discussions here without taking to the host site content limits and moral behavior standards will be moderated and possibly infracted . 

If you choose to present yourself in a cruder or lower moral standard than is the preference here take it to PBST of course if your romantically involved with your livestock ___there's just some things that don't need to be said in either place and we will put you out of our online misery and yours too :yuck:


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Laura said:


> Like forced breeding? Holding her down to make sure she gets bred and we get tastey babies?
> 
> Does anyone at ST actually practice animal husbandry in any capacity in Real Life?


I raise sheep (23 pre-lambing), poultry (chickens, ducks geese), bottle calves, horses, and bees.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Judy in IN said:


> I raise sheep (23 pre-lambing), poultry (chickens, ducks geese), bottle calves, horses, and bees.


 Ah, that's why you don't have time to be here getting persnickety, making mountains out of molehills, and you know the proper place to sling the manure. :clap:


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Laura said:


> Ah, that's why you don't have time to be here getting persnickety, making mountains out of molehills, and you know the proper place to sling the manure. :clap:


 wanna bet?


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

katydidagain said:


> Holy cow how the heck do you interpolate anything about breeding out of what I said in #22?
> 
> _My point is that a child shouldn't be reading some of the threads in the animal forums..
> 
> _Amazing, just amazing.


Because thats what you said :shrug:


Which threads do you think they shouldn't read? The ones how to feed the animals? Im betting the ones you think they shouldn't read, all have to do with breeding in some form.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

WhyNot said:


> I cannot be the only one that cannot believe this conversation is even happening. Is this the junior high section of HT?


I actually kept reading, because I wasn't sure if people were kidding or not... :shrug:


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## Groene Pionier (Apr 23, 2009)

I agree with using the correct anatomical terminology and that animal husbandery is part of homesteading life. I don't have any experience in that, what I didn't know that one has to do all kind of things to get the animals to breed. And what you have to do I thought that was really funny, no offense meant! Only I think I would be the 'if it happens it happens' kind of person


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

katydidagain said:


> #5 Those who got an infraction on another part of HT where it's really G (okay, not the goat forum--some of those pictures they post!) and have managed to receive none here.


That would be the category I belong to


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Terri in WV said:


> It's the censorship of the words. It should be equal across the board.


We do address language "across the board". Singletree being the board Terri and I regulate per site admin preferences across the host site.

In addressing language use site admin often takes into consideration the main board topic, the degree of purist participants, acceptable terminology for a topic, the accepted morality factors of the over all community and the overall participants dynamic based on complaints and reported posts .

For example when I was a preteen my family operated a registered bullmastiff kennel with pups selling for $1000 to $5000 apiece depending on gender , show and field trial results and geneology record.

I was taught that the accepted gender terminology of blood lines for the canines in the bloodline were sire and dame for ancestors and dog for males and  for females . This was the established norm among the AKC breeders.

While I was expected to honor the accepted AKC context when question as the trials handler of our kennel I also was taught use of the terminology outside the acceptable context of the kennel club use as curses and descriptive of humans ,especially females , was in contrast of normally accepted human morality standards and got me disciplined .

This is an ongoing issue with posters on internet message boards and Terri and I as moderators must take implied context, the posters apparent reason for posting out of context terms for trolling or shock value, etc.

Admin establishes the terminology guidelines for the site and while some terms can be auto censored, as moderators Terri and I must consider the topic use of terms and implied use of words.in postings.

Discussion of practices acceptable in issues of animal husbandry are often infraction offenses when used to discuss human activities due to the human social morality factor.

The same moral factor is why we often have senior citizens here on Singletree try to spew acceptable animal husbandry terms in discussions as insults or to present themselves as if they are defiant 10 year olds parroting   ,  simply because they saw it used on a board under other mods jurisdiction who may have breeding purists within their jurisdictions and the poster wants to bomb this board as a juvenile appearing troll.

In cases when we see juvenile misuse of terminology on this board we moderate to the extent we feel necessary.

As far as children visiting boards dedicated to the husbandry of animal species, the responsibility of defining the appropriate use of terms rest with their parents.

Here on Singletree while we allow discussions of animal husbandry as it pertains to single homesteading, Terri and I weigh the context of posted content.

If used appropriately it is allowed if not, it is an infractionable offense of posting conduct.

As a matter of fact this reply of mine is part of a response to a report post by a participant of Singletree who takes offense with some animal husbandry practices they teach their children are inappropriate within the human social morality environment. 
As the parent it is that posters responsibility to explain to their children the difference between a livestock species accepted as a tendable crop and the human species which in our social moral environment is accorded more courtesy.

In closing , while we allow discussion of animal husbandry here as it pertains to singles approach to the topic, I would remind posters to utilize the other boards hosted here dedicated to the topic of their intended species of interest and if they use terminology here out of proper context to expect to be moderated as Terri, I and site admin agree is appropriate.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2013)

".....senior citizens on ST trying to spew....."

Really Shrek?


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

Shakes out hay bale, sits, opens Thermos, and pours coffee...


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

As umpires and referees at a ball game I call em as I see em.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

Cindilu, have you tried the Dry Incubation method? With a hygrometer and thermometer inside the incubator, I did quite well with it...

http://paraguinparadise.netfirms.com/Dry Incubation.htm

I went through and highlighted the process for myself with a marker, since it's a lot of talking along with the directions... But I use LG foam 'bators and it seems to work pretty well, whether you turn the eggs yourself or use an automatic turner.


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

Lordy I can't wait to raise some chickees!


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

When I get closer to time Silverflame I will try it that way, how does that sound? Right now the current goal is to purchase property which is this summer's goal then heading over to said property to get the land ready to build a house. Then when I finally get that all done first on my to do list is to have chickens again, and maybe a couple of ducks. And then who knows what I might try to add to the mix. 

Here are my garden and chicken ideas as well as building ideas... 
http://pinterest.com/thechildsgarden/

In that link I have chicken coop house ideas, and of course I add more weekly.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

*lol* How does that sound? Sounds like you're open to new ideas. 

I had my bators running in rounds in my bedroom... I kept the door closed unless I was walking out it, just to keep the humidity in the bedroom as steady as possible... I think I had 6 bators running at max... 4 used as bators and 2 used as hatchers. One bator hit its due date every week, and I would transfer the eggs to a hatcher (incubator without a turner, and the plugs plugged)... One hatcher was being emptied out as the other was getting new eggs, so every week I had one bator to fill with eggs, one bator to pull eggs from and move to hatcher, and one hatcher to clean out. It worked great! 

If you need help, ya know... I have a tent. 

Just glanced at your pinterest... I love the trellis along the gutter idea. I have a thing for climbing flowers/plants. They have a way of making everything look great!  That fairytale-looking chicken house is adorable... I'm thinking something a little larger scale for my own though.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

I am loving pinterest and keep most of my ideas on there. I was thinking along the lines of one of those cute little garden shed ideas for a big chicken coop, but I don't want to get to big because it will be just me. I just love the birds though as that is my problem. I think they are really beautiful and make good pets. You have a TON of chicken stuff going on in and around your place. 

LOL, yep a tent is good and I even have a old civil war one I want to use when I get my place. It will become a outdoor tea room type of idea.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

Currently I have NOTHING going on at my house... I'm living far from the farm, and in an apartment. It's REALLY crappy when spring is approaching... I'm hoping to be out on the coast within the next year though... *fingers crossed*

I want to raise some rare, unique breeds when I get back to the land... And also mutts. I LOVE chicken genetics, and I think mutts are some of the coolest, prettiest, hardiest birds out there... I love the surprises when the eggs start cracking open and you're like, "What is THAT going to look like as an adult?!"  

I'd also like to stop supporting the meat industry 100%, which means raising my own meat for my dogs, so at least I know where the cockerels will be going, rather than tossing them into a chipper like commercial hatcheries do...

Oh, man, CHICKENS. Here comes the cabin fever! :help:

:hijacked:


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I'll never be able to shake hands with a rabbit owner/breeder again, without wondering where that hand has been.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

*rofl*

I have vibrated my hand on the rump of a new buck who's never been there before to give him the "Hey, your butt is supposed to vibrate... Is this giving you any ideas?" idea before, but that is IT. 

:hysterical:

If they really need more coaxing than that, they're failing to live up to the rabbit stereotype, and you should maybe just get new ones!


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

And thats why I had up to 150 rabbits and 15/18 bucks. One dont work, another one was glad to. Ive seen the time I took a doe down the row and she never took any of them. Ive seen the time I took her down the row and she hit on the last one. I seen the time I took her all through the YMCA, and she hit on the first one I tried her with the second time around, like. O NO. We going to do it again. Heck, I give it up lol


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