# Canada - no food stamps? How do they help the needy?



## AngieM2

naturelover - in the comment about the Seattle planting the forrest of free food, you mentioned that your part of Canada has no food stamps.

I'm interested in learning how they handle low income people that need food, or the homeless that need food?

You know, the ones that are in a similar circumstance to those in the USA that get food stamps for legitimate reasons. (as opposed to the ones that make a profession of it here).

Thanks
Angie


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## mekasmom

I'd like to know this too. They are so wonderful in caring for medical needs. I am sure they have a way to care for poor people too.


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## Tracy Rimmer

Canada has what is called "social assistance". Basically, if your income (or rather, lack thereof) qualifies, you may qualify for a monthly stipend to help offset costs of living. It's administered provincially, not federally. I don't think there are restrictions on what you can use it for, but you have to go through a process to get it in the first place.

The Canadian Child Tax Benefit is available to low income families with children. It's based on your income, and you don't get it if your family income is above a certain amount, but it provides a monthly cheque (amount varies according to income level) to ensure that children's needs are met. There is a separate program which will provide $100 per month per child (taxable) to offset child care expenses -- again, your income has to be below a certain level to qualify.

I've never claimed benefits of any kind, so someone else will be better placed to answer specifics, I'm sure.


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## InvalidID

So instead of foodstamps they give cash much like our Welfare system, but they add enough to cover basic foods as well? Interesting... Not sure if I like the foodstamp program better or not.


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## Paumon

NL has already left town for the island this morning for the long weekend and will be gone for maybe a week. Maybe other Canadians will see your post and can give some response from their perspectives.

NL knows more about it than I do because of her community work. I know that NL has already answered this question on several occasions in the past here in S&EP, Current Events, Politics and General Chat so you might want to do a search of her posts about that. I did do a very quick search with regard to food stamps so I copied this one post she made. See below.

Aside from what she posted below I can tell you that in the event of an emergency (say like if a person's house burned down and they lost everything and are having to stay with friends) if a person is applying for emergency welfare assistance if they have absolutely no money and no food they can receive a single food voucher for $20 at the time of application. That is to tide them over with food for a day or two until they get their first social assistance cheque a couple of days later. The applicant can immediately take the voucher to a grocery store and select $20 worth of real food (no junk foods, pop, candies or luxury items are allowed). Real food means foods like milk, bread, eggs, cheese, fresh fruits and veggies, canned foods like soups, veggies and meats, canned baby food. The voucher cannot be used anywhere except in a grocery store and all grocery stores are legally required to accept them.

I can also tell you that in 2010 USA had over 39 million people on food stamps, that is more than the entire population of Canada. There are not really many people in Canada that are on social assistance and those who are on social assistance are explected to find employment. 



naturelover said:


> Originally Posted by *SquashNut*
> _In Canada things are different. Here we have people that their whole jobs are getting in food stamp/bank lines. They are abled bodied persons too._
> _Is that allowed in Canada?_
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's not allowed. It's quite different here. There isn't any such thing as food stamps for one thing, never has been. Nothing like WIC programs (at least none that I know of). There _are_ food banks but people have to meet with rigid requirements and proof of need to qualify for food bank handouts. There are very strict regulations and time limitations to how long any person can collect social assistance benefits, even for single parents there's a time limit - I think it's a maximum of 5 years for a single parent depending on the age of their youngest pre-school child but that may have changed to less years now. Single parents with school-aged children are required to find a job. The government is more inclined to sponsor a person for career training and helping them find a job rather than to allow them to stay on welfare. All welfare recipients MUST be able to provide proof that they are a Canadian citizen, that they are truly in need and that they have no valuable assests that can be sold. If it's someone with a long-term disability or handicap they get a pension, which is not the same thing as social assistance, and it's not a lot of money. It's not easy to get by in Canada if you don't have a job and a good work ethic. Not many people can afford to be hoarders and those who are preppers are usually sensible about it and don't have to worry about their ordinary preps being taken away from them. People are expected to be as prepared as possible to take care of their own well being in the event of an emergency and they're expected to be willing to help each other out.
Click to expand...


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## AngieM2

Thanks Paumon and for finding the previous post of NL's .

I wish USA would be as dilegent in keeping our welfare/food stamps into the realms of citizens and those that need to work, etc.


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## Becka03

is anyone else sickened by the whole we have more people on Food Stamps than the entire population of Canada?


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## Paumon

Becka03 said:


> is anyone else sickened by the whole we have more people on Food Stamps than the entire population of Canada?


Don't forget that USA also has 10 times the population of Canada.


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## AngieM2

Paumon - do you know how it stacks up in percentages of populations?


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## Paumon

I haven't a clue. Not my area of expertise. I guess if you really want to find out you'd have to do some internet research about it.

ETA: I don't know what year this is from but try this: http://www.ncw.gc.ca/[email protected]#faq7


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## AngieM2

This looks like an after work research project.

I think I need to educate myself more. When I find things I may bring a link and ask more questions.


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## Diggin-it

Becka03 said:


> is anyone else sickened by the whole we have more people on Food Stamps than the entire population of Canada?


It makes me sick!! I know to many people who abuse the system. Biggest pet pev is the ones who get their monthly welfare (assistance) check and head the the tobacco store and buy $150 worth of cigarettes. Us tax payers should not have to float the bill for someones unhealthy habit! Then down the road we will be paying for their medical bill for a tobacco related sickness. This country will never get out of debt if it continues to hand out free money to sooooo many who abuse the system.


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## Paumon

AngieM2 said:


> This looks like an after work research project.
> 
> I think I need to educate myself more. When I find things I may bring a link and ask more questions.


Sounds like a plan. Good luck with that.

As a side note I have to go now too, I need to catch the 3:15 ferry to the island. We will both be away for about a week over there as we are going to our annual Victoria Day long weekend reunion (a 7 day long weekend for us :happy to the cabin on the seashore with 7 other women friends.

Have a nice weekend everyone. Bye bye for now.


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## AngieM2

Have a great week, and make naturelover faint - tell her I'm asking questions about how Canada does something!


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## olivehill

I just did the math really quickly using the recipient numbers the Canadian report gives vs the population for each Province and came up with 7.4%. That said, something seems wonky about Nunavut's numbers as they say they have 15,523 recipients of Social Assistance, but they only have a population of 31,906. That's more than 48% of their population on assistance? If you exempt them from the equation, the overall comes down considerably to just under 4%. Again, just really, really quick, rough math.


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## celina

olive hill that is about right on Nunavut...very sad


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## mekasmom

Becka03 said:


> is anyone else sickened by the whole we have more people on Food Stamps than the entire population of Canada?


No. We have a much larger population than Canada. It would be interesting to see statistics though. I wonder if 40% of Canadians get some sort of help or 10% or what. Then lets compare what percent of Americans get help.


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## olivehill

celina said:


> olive hill that is about right on Nunavut...very sad


Yikes! Okay. 7.4% then. Which, if I remember correctly isn't too far off from the U.S. Seems like last time I looked we were at something like 8%.


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## celina

there is no real industry and living conditions are really bad...the govt is SLOWLY working on infrasturcture there..it is REMOTE and they live in the old ways..yet at the same time the new ways interfere...alot of substance abuse and drug abuse and huffing going on. As well as young pregnancies...i have friends who taught there out of school


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## SquashNut

I get the feeling we are not supposed to understand this. Better that we think it's just our country that is having a hard time. It kinda upsets me till i understand the food stamps are keeping people fed and people working in the food industry.
But i don't see us being able to keep this up and i am looking for signals that we are switching over to austerity. But I don't see it.
The only way to stop the waste is to cut the amount per person. For some that will hurt. 
But then with inflation, i guess they are getting cut, if you think about it.
Was bad that they said no to some states on not letting recipients buy chips and soda. That would have been a good start.


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## olivehill

Here's the thing. They bellyache that we can't cut benefits because it'll cause all sorts of horrible things... more homelessness, hungry children, crime, etc. Recently (as in the past 6-8 months) here in MI tens of thousands of long-term (more than 4 years) recipients of cash assistance have been cut from the rolls. Not reduced, not slowly weaned off and supported in other ways, _cut_. There has been no significant, notable repercussions in any of the ways "they" said there would be. At least not that we're able to see at this point... Some say it's because we're not tracking those who were cut, but it would seem we would notice a drastic (remember: tens of thousands) rise in crime, or the homeless shelters and food banks would be crying about shortages in supplies and beds, or teachers would be reporting the hungry kids... but we're hearing nothing. Not even the people who are _looking_ have anything to report. This leads me to believe that welfare cuts aren't nearly the bane of society they're made out to be.


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## SquashNut

That's good to know, really.


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## Tracy Rimmer

olivehill said:


> That said, something seems wonky about Nunavut's numbers as they say they have 15,523 recipients of Social Assistance, but they only have a population of 31,906. That's more than 48% of their population on assistance?


No. There is no mistake. That is the tragedy of Canada's northern people.


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## InvalidID

olivehill said:


> Here's the thing. They bellyache that we can't cut benefits because it'll cause all sorts of horrible things... more homelessness, hungry children, crime, etc. Recently (as in the past 6-8 months) here in MI tens of thousands of long-term (more than 4 years) recipients of cash assistance have been cut from the rolls. Not reduced, not slowly weaned off and supported in other ways, _cut_. There has been no significant, notable repercussions in any of the ways "they" said there would be. At least not that we're able to see at this point... Some say it's because we're not tracking those who were cut, but it would seem we would notice a drastic (remember: tens of thousands) rise in crime, or the homeless shelters and food banks would be crying about shortages in supplies and beds, or teachers would be reporting the hungry kids... but we're hearing nothing. Not even the people who are _looking_ have anything to report. This leads me to believe that welfare cuts aren't nearly the bane of society they're made out to be.


 How many of those people just packed up and moved to a new state? I dont know the answer mind you, I'm just curious how many folks just decided to move over one state and get on the rolls there.

ETA: Remember that people can get foodstamps forever. When they cut people from the rolls it was cash only. That's going to be something around 4-500 a month cash cuts. It seems like a lot but anymore 500 isn't even covering the rent. I'd suggest most of these people are still in subsidized housing paying 40-80 a month rent. If they can't collect cans to cover that...


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## InvalidID

SquashNut said:


> I get the feeling we are not supposed to understand this. Better that we think it's just our country that is having a hard time. It kinda upsets me till i understand the food stamps are keeping people fed and people working in the food industry.
> But i don't see us being able to keep this up and i am looking for signals that we are switching over to austerity. But I don't see it.
> The only way to stop the waste is to cut the amount per person. For some that will hurt.
> But then with inflation, i guess they are getting cut, if you think about it.
> Was bad that they said no to some states on not letting recipients buy chips and soda. That would have been a good start.


 That's the real kicker right there. Inflation will create austerity whether we vote for it or not.


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## olivehill

InvalidID said:


> How many of those people just packed up and moved to a new state? I dont know the answer mind you, I'm just curious how many folks just decided to move over one state and get on the rolls there.


Given that at the end of last year they figured more than 15 _thousand_ families -- not people, _families_ -- had been cut, with another 5 months of cuts since then, if any significant portion of them moved to another state it would create a housing issue -- leaving many rentals and homes abandoned -- and there's not been a peep about it. For that reason, I doubt it's been an issue. 



InvalidID said:


> ETA: Remember that people can get foodstamps forever. When they cut people from the rolls it was cash only. That's going to be something around 4-500 a month cash cuts. It seems like a lot but anymore 500 isn't even covering the rent. I'd suggest most of these people are still in subsidized housing paying 40-80 a month rent. If they can't collect cans to cover that...


Yep. 



OliveHill said:


> ...tens of thousands of long-term (more than 4 years) *recipients of cash assistance* have been cut from the rolls.


Some also saw an increase in their food stamps once they lost cash benefits, because SNAP is calculated on income and they no longer had the cash assistance income. Most -- all, probably -- households saw a net reduction in benefits overall, though.

The point is, they were spending that $4-500 _somewhere_ previously to this and they haven't up and died in the streets without it. The point, is that the bleeding hearts would like us to believe that society will collapse if we reel in social welfare spending, but the evidence when we do is contrary to that.


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## InvalidID

olivehill said:


> Given that at the end of last year they figured more than 15 _thousand_ families -- not people, _families_ -- had been cut, with another 5 months of cuts since then, if any significant portion of them moved to another state it would create a housing issue -- leaving many rentals and homes abandoned -- and there's not been a peep about it. For that reason, I doubt it's been an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.
> 
> 
> 
> Some also saw an increase in their food stamps once they lost cash benefits, because SNAP is calculated on income and they no longer had the cash assistance income. Most -- all, probably -- households saw a net reduction in benefits overall, though.
> 
> The point is, they were spending that $4-500 _somewhere_ previously to this and they haven't up and died in the streets without it. The point, is that the bleeding hearts would like us to believe that society will collapse if we reel in social welfare spending, but the evidence when we do is contrary to that.


 Oh I agree. I'm just saying that I am dubious of how much they really cut. Whenever government says they ended or cut a program it always ends up being a half truth. Usually you find the program was cut up and split among other programs.

I'm thinking some of them went on SSI, some of them went and got jobs, most of them found other ways to cover their costs through the system. Just my thought mind you, I have no proof at all.


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## olivehill

InvalidID said:


> Oh I agree. I'm just saying that I am dubious of how much they really cut. Whenever government says they ended or cut a program it always ends up being a half truth. Usually you find the program was cut up and split among other programs.
> 
> I'm thinking some of them went on SSI, some of them went and got jobs, most of them found other ways to cover their costs through the system. Just my thought mind you, I have no proof at all.


I agree that some are likely scamming in some other way. Most of the examples I've seen from Dept. of Human Services is along the lines of, say a family lost $500 in cash, they might gain $250 in SNAP... so it's a net reduction of only half what was "cut" in cash, but still a net reduction. Figure at 15,000 families that's a savings of over 3M per month even with those increases in SNAP. 

Of course, the government could cut every bit of waste and end with a surplus and it's not like the tax payer would see a dime of it back... so...  ... at this point I'm unconvinced it matters at all in the grand scheme of things. They're going to spend what they're going to spend, they're not actually going to give me a break at any point, and I'm not actually going to benefit from 99% of what they spend my money on. I don't see that changing. I suppose it's all just principle.


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## longshot38

hey Angie, Social Assistance or Income Support as we call it in Newfoundland and Labrador is different in each province. there are certain common things however, the basic amount of IS is supposed to cover rent/mortgage payments up to very basic amounts, no mcmansions on welfare of course. the payments also are to cover basic utilities and food. if a person has special needs like a diabetic diet and can get medical verification of same there is a small additional payment to cover the cost of certain foods. of course we have universal medical care in Canada but for persons on IS we provide health care cards that cover the cost of prescription drugs, most dental care, and access to ambulance needs to transport to hospital in case of emergency. in addition we provide emergency support after regular hours via an on-call services 24/7. as well we provide province wide emergency Social Services in the event of natural or man made disasters. such as Hurricane Igor that struck this province a couple of years ago. see Hurricane Igor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. a good friend and colleague is the manager of emergency social services and was in the thick of the relief effort. thats something we put in place, partially, in response to 9/11 and the plane landings when the air space was vacated. in the event of a disaster we have provision for emergency accommodations and food vouchers, it is up to the individual service provider hotel or grocery store to accept or decline these vouchers. we can also provide emergency accommodations for stranded persons etc at local homeless and emergency shelters.

on a national level, we have EI employment insurance that is paid for by workers and employers that provides payments in the case of layoff or job loss unless your fired for something like misconduct, in which case there is Income Support. we also have a Canada Pension Plan across the country, payments for that comes out of your cheque each week except for the province of quebec they have their own plan. we also have Old Age Security OAS that works with CPP so that our elders can have dignity in their later years. We have universal medicare of course something i am very greatfull for because if my folks had to pay for my medical care when i was a child they might still be paying for it or i might not be as well as i am, from crippled child to Naval Officer, not bad.

so that's my spiel on "welfare" in my province and like it has been said these things can vary from province to province.

hope this helps.
dean

ETA: there is a Child Tax Benefit that is paid each month to all low income families across Canada, after a certain amount of taxable income it is cut off and as income increases the amount per child decreases.


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## WolfWalksSoftly

But you are forgetting how the Assistance Programs..WIC and I don't remember the others " help make the Economy work" gre: Not my words, but that of
The wicked witch of the west Nancy Polosi.


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## Welshmom

My own personal observation is that I see welfare & govt. programs reliance is often times really a _culture _all it's own in the cities (well, I guess it can occur anywhere). There are whole, multi-generational families on assistance. No shame, no expectation at all to get off or to go out and earn money honestly. 

So many times I've gone to a residence (always a rental) in the middle of the day on say a Tuesday, Wednesday, etc. and seen a whole crowd of adult, able-bodied people sitting around watching t.v. I think "Why aren't you people at work?!" Why would they when they can just go get in line and then a check shows up in the mail? Quite a few of them are known drug dealers also, of course. 

I'm not trying to paint every person on assistance as being like this. But I do see that there is a big elephant in the room, and it is the welfare culture that exists in our country. We will not fix the welfare system's ills unless we somehow find a way to turn that culture around.


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## rileyjo

Canada's economy is largely based on natural resources. Outside of the large cities, people farm, fish, mine, log or mill. With our climate, you cant do that year round. We have EI (employment insurance) which everyone pays into with every paycheck. Employers match employee amounts. It supports the workforce and ensures that people can stay and build communities so that these resource based industries can continue.
Canada is so vast that people can not just uproot and follow the work and our social systems reflect that reality.

I was self employed for most of my life. If I decided to add employees to my biz, I had to budget for the costs of employing them. I had to match their EI deduction and match and exceed their CPP ( pension) by 1.5. It adds to the cost of doing business and partly explains why things cost more up here. On the other hand, EI ensures that my workers are going to be around in the summertime when I need them. 

As far as food stamps go, If a person becomes stranded while traveling thu, the local police will provide a voucher for food and lodging. They will give them info on accessing social services to help them and they will follow up to see how they get on.

Last time I checked, welfare paid about $540/month to a single adult. If you are healthy and able to work you will be required to take training/ work placement in order to get that cheque. People can not just sit around and get money here. If you have children, you get welfare after you get your child support from your childs other parent. If they dont pay, they dont get to renew their drivers license and the courts will hunt them down for the money. Canada does offer subsidized housing to low income families but the waiting lists are long and these homes go mostly to families with young children.


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## AngieM2

thanks for all the replies so far, I hope more are coming from the various areas of Canada.

One of the big differences, for making your way work seems to be a strict verification before benefits are extended to someone. Other than those one time help vouchers.

And I seem to be reading that one of the big conditions is that if capable of working, that to get the benefits one must work or train for work in some manner.

These are two things that I think our USA "welfare" programs seem to be sorely lacking in enforcing.

I will need to read through this thread a few more times to let it all sink in more. 

thank you for your replies. It's helping to educate me.


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## AngieM2

auxilary question - what happens if someone is not in the country legally and wants "help"?


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## wogglebug

I think there's a simple scale effect operating here. Social Security and Medicare and whatever. They work, and they work well, but only up to a certain size. Canada and New Zealand and Australia are doing pretty well, but they're doing it because they're small enough that a few good civil servants (yes, they do exist, although too rarely) can get things like efficiency and auditing moving and working. Britain, I think, is marginal. The sheer mass of indifferent public servants starts to out weigh the good guys. USA - well, it just doesn't work. Too big, the good guys can't generate momentum to make things work, the bad guys are just the big-bottomed couch potatoes, outweighing any effort to do good things. USA could probably make it work if their efforts were on the state level rather than national, but then the best would be swamped by immigrants from other states.

Which raises the question - should the USA break up into smaller states? Become (hear the words and tremble) a Confederacy rather than a Union?) I can't tell you that. There are other things (like military) that probably work the same way, but with bigger limits. I think the world needs the USA's military strength, but I think the USA's military, once returned, would be better served by a civil service that covered a fifth of Texas, rather than 12 times it. And yes, they could do it - Texas is allowed to split into five separate states if it wants to. Look it up - I'm not kidding - that was the basis on which they were admitted to the Union. Actually, though, Texas is about the population of Canada or Australia right as they are.


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## AngieM2

wogglebug - can you explain the difference in a Union and a Confederacy? I know that Civil War/War of Northern Agression (take your pick of title) they were the Union, and we were a Confederacy - but I never have known there was a difference. always thought it was basically the same thing with two different names.

And you think this would give a more manageable hand on how to handle the "welfare" programs. Better able to check the elgibility to receive what we offer?


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## wogglebug

Angie, I'm not real sure on this. I know what I mean, but I'm not real sure on expressing it clearly for the rest of the world.

Anyhoo, here we goo.
I view a union as something where everything gets all munged together - like mashed potatoes.
I view a con-something-or-other as the potatoes or states standing together, each with their own independent identity, but confederated together.

Sorry if that ain't clear enough, but it do be what I mean.


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## AngieM2

I understand what you defined.


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## Oak Leaf

I'm in Quebec. 
Welfare is roughly $540/mth per adult. So a couple might get just over $1000, but figure $400-700 would go towards rent. People on welfare are not rolling in money, it's hard to make ends meet. 

There are many financial assistance programs at both the federal and provincial level. Many people benefit from the programs and many of them are necessary to help make ends meet for anyone earning a low wage. They're not just for unemployed people, you can be working 2 or 3 jobs but if you have a low wage and a large family, you could still qualify for benefits. 

When we were just starting out, DH and I both qualified (as a couple) for GST credits, QST credits, (combined = a couple hundred/year) and would get back a healthy amount at tax time (never more than we paid in taxes during the year though). DH has worked his way up the income ladder and we are now over the cut off point and no longer receive credits. They were _greatly _appreciated at the time. 

If we had children (dependents), we might qualify for these credits again and others as well. We also have a generous maternity/paternity/parental leave. We are taxed heavily, but most people I know appreciate all the programs we have in place. You may not need them, but knowing they're there if you hit a rough patch is a blessing.


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## mekasmom

rileyjo said:


> Last time I checked, welfare paid about $540/month to a single adult.


A family with three kids wouldn't get that much in many parts of the US.


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## wr

In Alberta, if you are on assistance, my be entitled to full or partial assistance and a person is encouraged to work. I'm sure my explanation will be clumsy but a person who's income is subsidized has to declare their income regularly and when they do, their next cheque will reflect the income they have earned after the first $100 they make and rest is calculated on a percentage of their income so essentially, they more you work, the better off you are financially until you have your feet back under you and you're back working full time or at a better job. Our social programs also will provide training for people under certain circumstances.


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## mpillow

mekasmom said:


> A family with three kids wouldn't get that much in many parts of the US.


according to this and local families I know its much more...
US Welfare System - Help for US Citizens

a family of 4 will get roughly $500 a month FS
up to $900 a month TANF
free healthcare
section 8 housing if need be
fuel assistance
money for college and/or training opportunities to include daycare if necessary
free lunch at school

It works out to about $37k a year....on unemployment you get $386 a week (ME), no healthcare, no foodstamps, no daycare, nothing until you cash out your 401k, take the gov't tax penalty, sell the extra car etc etc....welfare is far more "cushy" than unemployment. Sad but true...


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## longshot38

AngieM2 said:


> auxilary question - what happens if someone is not in the country legally and wants "help"?


Usually Canada Border Services are called along with the RCMP and the case is handed over to them.

at least thats how we do it here in NL.

dean


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## AngieM2

longshot38 said:


> Usually Canada Border Services are called along with the RCMP and the case is handed over to them.
> 
> at least thats how we do it here in NL.
> 
> dean


So your government backs the laws of your land on illegals. That's good to hear.


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## AngieM2

another auxilary question....

Are all children born on Canadian grounds automatically Canadian citizens, even if parents are not there legally and are not citizens?


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## mekasmom

mpillow said:


> according to this and local families I know its much more...


Chapter XII. Specific Provisions of State Programs
Chart 2 shows the amounts. Alaska is high and so is CA. The others are not high in most cases.


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## mpillow

"Last Updated on 11/25/2002 "....figures are 10 years old...a family of 7 I know was getting over 750 a month FS(plus other benefits)...my neighbor is on disablity $700 a month plus $231 a month FS.. plus fuel asst... plus free medical....in maine


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## Tracy Rimmer

If you're born here, you're Canadian.


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## rileyjo

We have Welfare. We have Employment Insurance which everyone pays into (I've never needed it) and we have Disability Support.

People who are declared unfit to work can get a disability pension. I had a neighbour with MS and he got barely a $1000/month and was not allowed to work in any way to increase that amount. He lived alone, had no vehicle and was a regular Food Bank customer. The clients in my job with Social Services get about $800-900 a month but they've been disabled from birth and live in group homes. They never see their money and it all goes to their care. We do try to put a bit away each month to give them some kind of an outing as a summer holiday. Their families, if they have any, make up the shortfalls.

I've seen my shares of workers who are injured and cant do their regular job, but they can sure hoist a snowmobile into the back of their truck with little difficulty when it is time to go ice fishing on the weekends. There seems to be a fair bit of fraud in the Disability Pension and Workmans Comp support systems from my limited experience. Lots of weekend flu going around it seems.

As for illegal aliens, mostly they arrive by air or sea and are met by customs. They are given a chance to tell their story and apply for refugee status. They get housed in motels at taxpapyers expense or are handed over to various community groups who agree to sponser them. Eventually, they get an immigration hearing. If their refugee claim is considered to be not valid, they are deported to their home country almost immediately.

I've never met an "alien". While I was self employed delivering bread, I've come across large families living in the basement of convenience stores. These groups are sponsored as "family" and they work off the 'debt' by working in the convenience stores. It is a bit shady and smacks of human trafficking since the setups were very hush hush. If the store owner didnt trust you, you'd never get near the store basement.


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## ne prairiemama

I know in Nebraska both parents have to be working out of the home or in college to recieve any TANF. Also here if you make over $700 a month you cannot be covered by medicaid unless you are a pregnant woman, then they cover what is "needed" to have baby be healthy like doc or hospital midwife appts.

Foodstamps depend on what you pay out and what your income is and how big your family is. 
Not sure if anyone cares but I thought I'd add that LOL.

ETA: if you make any extra they will lower the FS and if want to see what all they ask you can go here https://dhhs-access-neb-menu.ne.gov/start/?tl=en just go to Apply. You can go through the whole thing and see all the questions without actually applying as long as you don't submit it when you get to the end.


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## longshot38

AngieM2 said:


> So your government backs the laws of your land on illegals. That's good to hear.


the thing is it can take 10 years or more to get an illegal out of the country because the "progressives" decided that because they are here they get many levels of appeals etc. the present Government is working to streamline the process but its tough to get through 40 years of progressive appointees and yes men put in place in the past, these people are now in the main positions of power and have, in too many cases have their own agendas, and turf/fiefdom to press forward or protect.

rant off
dean


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## AngieM2

longshot38 said:


> the thing is it can take 10 years or more to get an illegal out of the country because the "progressives" decided that because they are here they get many levels of appeals etc. the present Government is working to streamline the process but its tough to get through 40 years of progressive appointees and yes men put in place in the past, these people are now in the main positions of power and have, in too many cases have their own agendas, and turf/fiefdom to press forward or protect.
> 
> rant off
> dean


Dean - how do they or where do they live during all the appeals?


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## whiskeylivewire

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> But you are forgetting how the Assistance Programs..WIC and I don't remember the others " help make the Economy work" gre: Not my words, but that of
> The wicked witch of the west Nancy Polosi.


I have nothing to add on this subject. I just saw how you spelled out Missouri and I laughed. That is EXACTLY how I say it


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## pumpkin

Refugees are different from illegal aliens. 

Refugees are part of the humanitarian tradition of Canada. If a refugee has a claim this goes before a board and the refugee is under the protection of the Canadian Government. The refugee is given financial assistance or if sponsored the sponsors must pay for expenses. If the refugee is accepted they move on to become a landed immigrant with al the rights and responsibilites of such. If their claim is denied they are deported. 

There are between 35 and 120 thousand illegal aliens in Canada from all over the world including the US and Britain. 40,000 have completely dropped off the map. They are considered criminals and warrants are issued. When they are found they are deported. A lot of the illegals are family memebers. They are supported and hidden by their legal immigrant family members. No one looks very hard for them since Canada's immigration policy supports the reunification of familes and most are already in the system - just waiting their turn to be accepted.

Legal immigrants can be accepted on their own or be sponsored. A lot of financial help is given in the first year including language training. Landed Immigrants have all the rights and protections of a Canadian citizen except the right to vote. When they are employed they pay unemployment insurance so are eligible for this in the same way as any working citizen. They have full healthcare coverage and are eligible for disability, maternity leave and emergency financial assistance - again just as any other Canadian but under the same rules.


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## AngieM2

pumpkin - they don't get to vote until they are working? and what does "landed" mean?



> Landed Immigrants have all the rights and protections of a Canadian citizen except the right to vote. When they are employed they pay unemployment insurance so are eligible for this in the same way as any working citizen.


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## pumpkin

A landed immigrant is one that has legally applied and been accepted and has documentation. It is officially called permanent resident status. The documentation means that you can come and go from the country. You use your old passport but must have your documentation with you. You have to live in Canada for a specified time before you can apply for citizenship. You only get a Canadian passport if you are a citizen. You can only vote if you are a citizen.

On the web site it says:
A Permanent Resident in Canada is someone who is not a Canadian citizen but who has been granted permission to live and work in Canada without any time limit on his or her stay. A permanent resident must live in Canada for two years out of every five or risk losing that status.

A Permanent Resident holds many of the same rights and responsibilities as a Canadian citizen, among others the right to work for any enterprise as well as for the federal or provincial government (under restriction of access rights to certain regulated professions). 

The main differences are that permanent residents cannot:
vote in elections in Canada;
run for elected office;
hold Canadian passports; or
join Canada's armed forces.

Permanent residents also risk deportation for serious crimes committed while resident in Canada. Permanent residents may apply for Canadian citizenship after three years in Canada; however this is not mandatory.


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## AngieM2

pumpkin - overall, in the majority of cases, does your government enforce those rules?

See, - I know we are kicking and screaming down her in the USA about having similar rules on the books, but no one wants to enforce them, and we get harrassed about wanting them enforced.

I am seeing many similarities in the rules each of our country has - but I am seeing that probably your country is much better at enforcing them.


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## BillHoo

Diggin-it said:


> ... Then down the road we will be paying for their medical bill for a tobacco related sickness. ....


Or we'll be giving up a spare lung!


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## longshot38

AngieM2 said:


> Dean - how do they or where do they live during all the appeals?


ok let me give you a scenario; man gets off plane from foreign country goes to first security person/official he sees claims to be a refugee. he is brought into the Canada Border Security office or the RCMP office at the airport (depending on what airport he lands at) the process starts from there, he is put up in local accommodations with food voucher clothing allowance etc. this is on the government bill. he makes his case before the tribunal and any allegations are verified, as much as possible with conditions in his home country. a ruling is made, eventually and if they are accepted they are granted "Landed Immigrant" status, if there is a ruling against the claimant he is ordered returned to his country of origin. as a landed immigrant he is allowed to work, move freely through out the country, etc. (a person still before the refugee board has to register their residence and are probably receiving some sort of public supports.)

as a failed refugee claimant they can and often do disappear into the underground that exists through many ethnic communities where they work and live in the underground economy working for cash, living in various apartments or boarding houses etc. most likely moving repeatedly to avoid notice by authorities. it can take a decade or more, maybe a lifetime, to catch up with them and actually get them out of the country and by then they usually have families, children and its a mess because the kids are Canadians and mom might be Canadian or landed immigrant but dad has to go and try to get in by the front door. the family sometimes goes with dad sometimes not.

just to note, to be a failed refugee claimant our man will have to had appeal after appeal sometimes up to several years worth and even up to decade before he slips into the underground I spoke about a minute ago. So if it takes another decade to catch him, he has had the benefit of up to 20 years living in a free country without paying taxes or really contributing to this country.

Clear as mud? for us too.:runforhills:

dean


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## pumpkin

I don&#8217;t think that you can really compare apples and snowballs. The US has more than 40 million LEGAL immigrants. The entire population of Canada is only 33 million. 

The number one destination for immigrants around the world is the USA. Always has been. Canada has a very open immigration policy - which is still evolving - along with a world renowned refugee program but you can only take the people you have room and jobs for. Both countries have been built by immigrants but the numbers are very different. The US economy is the largest in the world (double any other) and Canada is 9th. I read that the US has anywhere from 11 to 26 million illegal immigrants. Canada has 35 to 120 thousand illegals. 

The problems are probably exactly the same as in the US but on a much smaller scale. I know that the RCMP and Canada Customs and Immigration (and watch out for Revenue Canada!) are diligent in their search for illegals and the government prosecutes and deports. They also fine employers a lot. But illegals are adept at hiding and attaining fraudulent paperwork that allows them to work. Canadians have social insurance numbers and healthcare numbers and are victims of identity theft all the time and those who hire illegals aren&#8217;t going to stop until they are caught.

I think as the world population grows and economies shrink Canada will have a lot more illegals. One interesting thing is that over the past 3 years the number of immigrants from the US has increased 200%. Britain and the US are supplying 9000 immigrants a year each. This has a lot to do with professional immigration. If you are a professional or have a lot of investment capital your immigration is a much smoother process. Canada only has 15% corporate tax so it is enticing for investments.


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## pumpkin

Forgot to add that Canada, like Europe, has many guest worker programs which allows people to come and work but return to their home countries.  I don't know if the US has this.


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## AngieM2

This is a lot of good information. I thank all of you that are answering my questions. I will probably have more as I thi.k on tbis new info.

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2


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## Elffriend

I am a permanent resident of Canada. It took us nearly 5 years to legally immigrate, most of that was waiting on FBI clearance from the U.S. We've been here 4 yrs last Sept. We applied for citizenship last year and are still waiting to hear back. Last I checked there was an average wait of 18 months from the time you apply until you are given a test date. I do not know how long between passing the test and taking the oath of citizenship.

It is time consuming and expensive to immigrate legally if you aren't coming as a refugee and don't have family here. There are fees and a lot of paperwork to fill out.


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## AngieM2

Ellfriend - now you do have interesting knowledge as you came from a different country to Canada. Are you from USA or a different country? I only ask, as if from USA, then you have more first hand real knowledge of the differences.

Good that you are jumping through all the proper steps to become Canadian.


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## Elffriend

I'm from the United States. My family really likes it here in Canada. I'm not sure how much of the difference we've noticed is moving to a different country and how much is moving from a large suburban city (60,000 people) to a small, rural-ish village (3,000 people).


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## longshot38

Elffriend, welcome to Canada. this is the first i've had to do so. i see you have "the grey heavens" as your location, are you on the east coast? plenty of grey hereound: anyway welcome from the Rock.

dean


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## AngieM2

Elffriend said:


> I'm from the United States. My family really likes it here in Canada. I'm not sure how much of the difference we've noticed is moving to a different country and how much is moving from a large suburban city (60,000 people) to a small, rural-ish village (3,000 people).



Did a member of the family have a promised job before you moved there? I think that's one of the things needed, that I read on this thread. And did you get help getting set up, i.e.. with vouchers for anything, and do you now qualify for the "government" health care? Have you had to use it yet, if you qualify? How was the experience based on your going to doc experiences in USA? As you can see I'm very curious.


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## Elffriend

Hi, Dean

Thank you for the welcome. We live in Ontario, a little west of Kitchener-Waterloo.

The Grey Havens is a reference to The Lord of the Rings, the place the Elves sailed from when they were leaving Middle Earth. As you might guess from my user name and sigline, I'm a big Tolkien fan.


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## Elffriend

My husband is a software engineer with a job that's for a company based in California. He can work anywhere as long as he has his laptop. He had the job for a year or two before we moved. If you don't have a job offer before you get here, you have to have a certain amount of money. I can't remember how much it was, but enough that you wouldn't be in financial need for 6-12 months, I can't remember which. We had a decent amount in the bank at that time, so it wasn't a problem.

We didn't get any kind of help because we didn't need any. Our native language is English, which made integrating into society much easier. DH had a job. We had come up about 3 months before we officially "landed" and bought a house. We pretty much had all our bases covered by the time we got here.

Permanent residents are treated just like citizens when it comes to things like healthcare. In Ontario you have to be living in the province for three months before you can get a provincial healthcare card. So, after we were here for three months, we all got cards.

We've used the healthcare a lot, both for routine things and emergencies. When we first moved here we didn't have a family doctor. Anyone without their own doctor can walk into any clinic and be seen by a doctor there. We had to do that twice. On one occasion we were seen within 10 minutes of walking in the door. On the second occasion we had about an hour wait. We got on a waiting list for a family doctor and were on it for maybe 4 months before we moved up and became patients. The wait times for appointments aren't any different here than when we lived in NJ. Emergencies will get you seen right away, non-emergencies can take a couple of weeks to get in. When we moved here I had recently gone through treatment for breast cancer. I didn't need any more chemo or radiation, but I did need a dr. to keep track of me and write prescriptions. As soon as I got my health card I called the cancer centre attached to a major hospital in the nearest city, about half an hour from here. I was in to see an oncologist in 2 weeks. Maybe it's just the area I'm in. I keep hearing about how Canada has such long waits to see a doctor, but that hasn't been my experience and it hasn't been the experience of anyone I know personally.


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## Ross

> I keep hearing about how Canada has such long waits to see a doctor, but that hasn't been my experience and it hasn't been the experience of anyone I know personally.


 It must happen somewhere but I can't say I've seen it in Ottawa either. We've been through just about everything a system can fail at and have yet to be disappointed. Welcome to Canada I hope you'll settle in quickly!


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## AngieM2

thank you elffriend, you are doing more to let me see how Canada works than all the preaching others have done in the past.

Also, all the others that have posted. I really, really appreciate this manner of letting me learn about Canada. From my Mod Canadian friends, I knew it and they were neat. I really am enjoying learning more in this manner.

Thank you.


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## AngieM2

another question (see all answers - bring me to another question :clap does the having the "health card" and availability such as Canada does and you've experienced, does it make you feel less worried about things; let you maybe be at a lesser paying/benefit job such as something artistic, without - does it make you freer?

And since being there are you having a higher percentage of taxes taken out of your income? Is it a big difference in actual take home? Do you actually come out ahead, since you don't have to plan for large medical bill emergencies and pay for insurance premiums?

See - more questions.


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## Tracy Rimmer

Ross said:


> It must happen somewhere but I can't say I've seen it in Ottawa either. We've been through just about everything a system can fail at and have yet to be disappointed. Welcome to Canada I hope you'll settle in quickly!


I have lived in every province from Ontario west, and have utilized health care services everywhere along the route. The ONLY time I have ever had to wait for health care was in Calgary, and that was due to a doctor shortage... they were all leaving for Indiana, which had been actively poaching Canadian doctors, making promises of milk and honey. Most of them, I understand, came back after a few years


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## AngieM2

How are the doctor's paid, and do they have individual practices? 

Do they have their practices and just use the "card" as we use our insurance cards to get the payment? Do you have a co-pay for regular or for specialized medical attention?


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## Elffriend

It doesn't make me less worried, personally, because I wasn't really worried before.  Before his current job, DH had a job with really good health insurance. When we first moved here and before we had been here the 3 months to qualify for provincial coverage, we had a carry over policy. That was a bit expensive and didn't cover much beyond catastrophic care and a small amount toward prescription drugs. During those three months I was worried a little, even though we had money in the bank to use if we needed to.

Tax wise, we are actually better off here than in NJ. Our property tax here is about a third of what is was there. So while federally, yes, we're paying more, overall we're paying less. Our utilities here are less, but food is more.


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## Elffriend

I think what is covered differs from province to province.

Basic dental is not covered. Chiropractors used to be covered but no longer are. Eye exams are not covered for adults unless they have a medical condition. My family dr. has two offices, one in the city and one out in the boonies. I live half way between the two and usually see her at her rural office. I go in every three months because I was diagnosed last year with diabetes. About two weeks before I see her I go to the lab and have blood drawn. I just show them my card and the form from my dr. When I go to her office I just show them my card. Last summer I had an emergency situation with my eye. I called my eye dr and his office was closed for renovations. The service took a list of my symptoms and told me it warranted a trip to the emergency room. At the emergency room I just showed them my card. After a brief wait I was examined and they determined I needed a specialist. The emergency room called around and found one that could see me that afternoon. At the specialist's office I just showed my card. There were no co-pays.

My DH has to pay for his eye exams every two years. I now go in every year and since I'm a diabetic it's covered. Kids' annual eye exams are covered until they are 19. Eye glasses are not covered. Prescription drugs are not covered, though drugs administered during a hospital stay are. There's a program for prescription drugs based on income that people might qualify for.


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## AngieM2

Very interesting. I'm learning so much. I hope others are also.
Good to have a conversation.

What happens if you've lost your card? Can you give an equavilent of your SS# or such for them to check a general database to verify the "card", if there was an emergency?


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## pumpkin

Doctors have individual practices or they join together to form practices or they specialize or the form their own corporations. You choose your own family doctor. If the practices are full you go on a waiting list and meanwhile you use a walk in clinic. 

If you have an emergency you go to the hospital. Waiting lists are for elective surgery. Emergencies or illnesses are treated or operated on right away. 

One thing that many people misunderstand about the system is that the government has no say in the relationship between doctor and patient or hospital and patient. The doctor proposes the treatment. The doctor and the patient decide. If you want a second or third opinion you get one. There is no such thing as a pre-existing condition or life time limit or treatment limit. The government pays. 

The funding comes from taxes.

The healthcare card is your identification and proof of coverage. There are no co-pays for medical services but some provinces charge an extra premium for those over a certain income level.

We (my family) never worry about medical care or medical bills. We know that one person and one illness will not deplete all of our funds leaving the rest of the family without care. We have always had great doctors and great care for everything from maternity to broken bones to heart attacks and cancer. It definitely makes me more relaxed and secure.

If you compare US tax codes and Canadian tax codes you will see that the difference is not as much as people think.


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## Elffriend

Honestly, I have no idea what would happened in the short term if we lost our cards. You can go get a new one, but it takes a couple of weeks for them to send it. You need to get a new card every few years with an updated photo. When you go in to renew you have to present three pieces of ID from a long list of possibilities.


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## terri9630

pumpkin said:


> The funding comes from taxes.
> 
> The healthcare card is your identification and proof of coverage. There are no co-pays for medical services but some provinces charge an extra premium for those over a certain income level.
> .



If it is paid for by taxes how do they charge extra to some? Wouldn't the people who make more already be paying more in taxes?


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## wr

Elffriend said:


> Honestly, I have no idea what would happened in the short term if we lost our cards. You can go get a new one, but it takes a couple of weeks for them to send it. You need to get a new card every few years with an updated photo. When you go in to renew you have to present three pieces of ID from a long list of possibilities.


My accident prone youngest is notorious for losing his card and if he needs to see his doctor, his number is on record and if he ends up in an ER someplace in Alberta, BC or Saskatchewan (where he tends to be working), he receives treatment and they contact his doctor for his AHC number. If he wasn't able to provide a name and number for his family doctor, he would likely be billed for services.


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## celina

a different point of view..i moved from ontario to virginia last august

why: dh works for a software company that works in manufacturing and our current largest 3 customers are here...he was ALWAYS here...they have a usa office now , but despite all the news of unemployement, we cannot get usa staff...they want 120k out of school..(are they seriously nuts) and have been told..no i'm just interviewing to please my parents, i plan on not working until they kick me out...) so anyhow..we need some staff working the us office..we have 4 americans, 2 american students (just fyi...4 of that total are immigrants from india...and then hubby from canada.)

the housing market here is awesome for buyers..our current house 240k back in oakville, near toront 1.5million...as a stay at home mom...we never could have bought in oakville.

i have an aspergers/autism daughter and an adhd son with anxiety issues and i am treated for depression..

the only difference health care wise..is the constant co-pays...and that the company is only covering part of the health insurance..back in oakville they covered the dental and eye care and prescription riders..we only paid 5.00 for any meds

i kept hearing how taxes here are so much lower than in canada...proved to be false for us..no significant diff...except that for dd we got 400/month as a disability "child bonus" to help us...we lose that here

groceries i found par or more expensive than canada....the land of cheap groceries and awesome coupons..seems to not be in richmond..lol

service people here seem to simply not want our money in exchange for work...in general..they would rather not work. cannot get decent service in most places...but for the wages they make..you get what you pay for i guess..in ontaro min. wage is close or over 10/hr...that's for places like mcdonalds..

i worked at walmart briefly...and made 12/hr, got 15% off all groceries and diapers and prescriptions..that was a part time cashier...and would have qualified for much more had i stayed...

i was studying to become an autism aid in schools....i would have started at about 30k a year w summers off...here in virginia i'd make about 8.00 an hour...TO WORK WITH AUTISTIC KIDS... um no thanks....

so we're pretty happy here...miss canada alot some days...not much day to day difference...would still pick canada over usa..as it is home...but we're trying to grow dh's company in hopes of a leadership position for him...we have 200 staff in canada...we finally had to merge with an oregan firm to get some usa staffers...even our amercian boss cannot get over how people don't want to work....or want an insane salary out of school....not alot of realism out there...the realistic ones i'm guessing are gainfully employed..lol

i will state that a mother on maternity leave get 12 months..creates lots of temporary contracts and alot of moms choose to stay home and raise their kids..while others who go back to work go back without guilt knowing it was right for them. dad can take up to 9m of that leave if mom goes back to work...lots of companies top off what govt gives...i believe you get 55% of wages and lots of companies kick in diff. (would have to be repaid if not coming back) I've nursed everywhere in canada..and no one cares..here is much diff. and i get "you are still nursing...oh yeah that's right you are canadian..lol....that makes me laugh

hopefully i helped with some info...feel free to ask more questions...i might have the answer.


oh a big difference...in our school in canada..my kids got 3 recesses...and gym a few times a week..with bonus physical activity here and there..heck i remember spelling drills in gym class , kids would spell while tossing balls or jogging...run...spell....

here my son almost died..one recess.. and once a week. they stay in to catch up on work..and if it rains...they don't go out and do extra work..no playing in gym...insane...a bunch of adhd kisd needs to MOVE..of course my book worm daughter loves it..lol

any how..i mention that to everymeeting....we maintain good learning practices in canada and still get our kids to move...we are still having an obese problem....but honestly i've never seen more fat kids than i have in the usa....i cannot remember one obese kid in my kids' classes ever...


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## pumpkin

terri9630 said:


> If it is paid for by taxes how do they charge extra to some? Wouldn't the people who make more already be paying more in taxes?



A simplified way to explain the way the tax works is that the Federal Government collects the tax portion that covers Healthcare and then "pays" the provinces and territories through transfer payments. The provinces and territories then administer the healthcare system. 

"Health care in Canada is delivered through a publicly funded health care system, which is mostly free at the point of use and has most services provided by private entities. It is guided by the provisions of the Canada Health Act of 1984. The government assures the quality of care through federal standards. The government does not participate in day-to-day care or collect any information about an individual's health, which remains confidential between a person and his or her physician. Canada's provincially based Medicare systems are cost-effective partly because of their administrative simplicity. In each province each doctor handles the insurance claim against the provincial insurer. There is no need for the person who accesses health care (the patient) to be involved in billing and reclaim." 

If the provincial or territorial government decides they need more funding they assign an additional premium and send you an invoice for the premium. A certain amount for a single person and another amount for families depending on size. Not all P & T governments charge additional premiums and often they are just for short terms when the province or territory wants to improve or expand healthcare infrastructure such as building more hospitals or extended care facilities that are not covered by the transfer payments.

You then claim these premiums against the provincial or territorial portion of your income tax. If you are under a certain income, disabled or a student you don't pay.


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## AngieM2

so - if the divided collected taxes get used up there can be a shortfall invoice sent to individuals and families. 

Do the individuals and families ever "kick and scream" about more being invoiced. And on this extra invioce, is it a same percentage per person figure? or is it a percentage of income figure? That could be two vastly different numbers.

But this is sounding interesting, and workable if set up that way to begin with. 
does Canada have insurance companies? and is it for over and above - and is there any "over and above" charges? Does not sound as if there are any. Maybe just the prescriptions and eye glasses, and those things.

Also, good to know comments celina about coming from Canada to USA and the differences you see. This is valuable information and not just hype and fuss from either side. I truly appreciate you speaking up.


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## AngieM2

(I didn't comment much yesterday, as I was driving 520 miles and only reading via smart phone).


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## longshot38

AngieM2 said:


> so - if the divided collected taxes get used up there can be a shortfall invoice sent to individuals and families.
> 
> Do the individuals and families ever "kick and scream" about more being invoiced. And on this extra invioce, is it a same percentage per person figure? or is it a percentage of income figure? That could be two vastly different numbers.
> 
> But this is sounding interesting, and workable if set up that way to begin with.
> does Canada have insurance companies? and is it for over and above - and is there any "over and above" charges? Does not sound as if there are any. Maybe just the prescriptions and eye glasses, and those things.
> 
> Also, good to know comments celina about coming from Canada to USA and the differences you see. This is valuable information and not just hype and fuss from either side. I truly appreciate you speaking up.


the "invoice" thing is only in certain provinces, each province administers health care in it's own way, think of it like 13 health care systems instead of one. there are common standards and such set down by health Canada and people can expect similar levels of care across the country. In Newfoundland and Labrador, my province there is no invoice process and any shortfall is made up from general revenues that the province collects like sales tax etc. there are insurance companies in Canada, i have life and health through work and it covers things the MCP the plan here does not like prescription drugs, vision care and with a upgrade through the insurance company i have dental as well. many people dont have private insurance around here and rely on the MCP plan and make up the difference from their pockets. by the way, children get dental and vision care (not glasses) through the government plan.

dean


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## celina

in ontario. i know of no one who got an invoice...

we have insurance companies..and insurance through work, for dental, vision , chiro, therapy, and presciptions...they all vary depending on the plan...

when you reach 65 in ontario and quebec (last i checked) you got help with med. costs...from the govt. 

i never had trouble getting help as i hear the rumors are...

in northern ontario there is a severe doctor shortage..but lots of walk in clinics available and emergency rooms are always there if urgent. but my kids have seen all sorts of specialists and have had surgeries, mom had lots of vision issues and was able to get state of the art help...which she never could have paid for...

dad had several bouts of skin cancer , no problem

even in northern ontario..friend found out she had a brain tumor..it was removed within the month...and follow up...no issues...


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## naturelover

AngieM2 said:


> ....... And on this extra invioce, is it a same percentage per person figure? or is it a percentage of income figure? That could be two vastly different numbers.


Each province is different but this is what the monthly health insurance premium rates are in my province. Premium rates are based on family income and the premiums can be paid monthly, quarterly or annually. 

MSP - Premiums

.


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## pumpkin

AngieM2 said:


> so - if the divided collected taxes get used up there can be a shortfall invoice sent to individuals and families.
> 
> Do the individuals and families ever "kick and scream" about more being invoiced. And on this extra invioce, is it a same percentage per person figure? or is it a percentage of income figure? That could be two vastly different numbers.
> 
> But this is sounding interesting, and workable if set up that way to begin with.
> does Canada have insurance companies? and is it for over and above - and is there any "over and above" charges? Does not sound as if there are any. Maybe just the prescriptions and eye glasses, and those things.
> 
> Also, good to know comments celina about coming from Canada to USA and the differences you see. This is valuable information and not just hype and fuss from either side. I truly appreciate you speaking up.


When we first lived in Ontario we paid a premium of $33 per month for the family. After a couple of years they stopped needing it so we never again paid a premium. These extra premiums are for extra things the province decides they need. Where we live now there are no premiums but since all the baby boomers are aging rapidly we will probably start to pay a premium to build more retirement and extended care homes and to provide more in home nursing and homecare. Lots of nurses are going to be needed over the next 20 years.

It isn't really that the basic funding runs into a shortfall as each province receives funding based on population but rather that the richer provinces want more services especially research and experimenal medicine. British Columbia and Ontario have the most advanced cancer treatment centers as well as one of the world's top eye hospitals.


When premiums are charged it is a certain amount (flat rate) for a single person and another amount for families depending on size. Not all provincial and territory governments charge additional premiums and often they are just for short terms.

When you are charged a premium you then claim these premiums against the provincial or territorial portion of your income tax. If you are under a certain income, disabled or a student you don't end up paying.

Not much kicking and screaming about added premiums because no matter what the added premium might be it sure beats co-pays or deductibles or paying the whole amount. An emergency room physician is paid $600 just for deciding what to do with you and a family doctor gets over $200 for a 15 minute visit.

My friend works for Health Canada and once for fun we figured out just what the major illnesses, pregnancies, accidents and surgeries in my family would have cost. ALL the taxes that we paid over 30 years would have paid for only 1/3 of the treatment we received and that did not include standard doctor visits.

We have Blue Cross and Sunlife and other insurance companies and you can buy extra insurance which covers prescriptions, physiotherapy, massage therapy, accupuncture, chiropractors, eye glasses, hearing aides, dentists, private hospital rooms and air amublance as well as travel out of the country. many employers offer group rates or you can buy it for yourself.

There are no deductibles or co-pays for all the services offered under the Canada healthcare act. You walk in to the doctor or the hospital and you sign that you are there and that is the last you think about whether or not you or your child will receive all the medical care they need or what it is going to cost.

Last week my husband had his yearly physical with all the accompanying tests and more physiotherapy for a back injury. I had xrays and blood work and next week we both see the doctor to get the results and my GD has her next examinations and tests for her pregnancy. Busy, busy, busy.


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## texican

celina said:


> l
> 
> service people here seem to simply not want our money in exchange for work...in general..they would rather not work. cannot get decent service in most places...but for the wages they make..you get what you pay for i guess..in ontaro min. wage is close or over 10/hr...that's for places like mcdonalds..


Why work? when Uncle Sam will provide you free food, free housing, free medical care, free everything?

It's been over a decade since I was traveling thru Canada, but everything was more expensive then (Canadian dollar was ~.70c American... last time I checked, it was about par). With the exchange rate about the same, I'd imagine prices would be very similar....


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## naturelover

texican said:


> Why work? when Uncle Sam will provide you free food, free housing, free medical care, free everything?
> 
> It's been over a decade since I was traveling thru Canada, but everything was more expensive then (Canadian dollar was ~.70c American... last time I checked, it was about par). *With the exchange rate about the same, I'd imagine prices would be very similar*....


Exchange rate doesn't make much difference on prices and prices will vary depending on what location of the country you're in. Due to extra transportation costs prices for a lot of things in northern Canada are more expensive than things found near the border or near port cities. Many people who live near border towns shop across the border for groceries, gas and other consumer products for savings. 

Here is a current _average_ cost of living comparison between USA and Canada. Cost Of Living Comparison Between Canada And United States



> <TABLE class=table_indexes_diff align=center><TBODY><TR><TH>Indexes Difference
> 
> 
> ​</TH><TH></TH></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2 align=right>Consumer Prices in United States are 16.05% lower than in Canada</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2 align=right>Consumer Prices Including Rent in United States are 13.71% lower than in Canada</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2 align=right>Rent Prices in United States are 3.00% lower than in Canada</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2 align=right>Restaurant Prices in United States are 18.60% lower than in Canada</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2 align=right>Groceries Prices in United States are 18.60% lower than in Canada</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2 align=right>Local Purchasing Power in United States is 10.74% higher than in Canada</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>​


.


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## Ross

Elffriend said:


> Honestly, I have no idea what would happened in the short term if we lost our cards. You can go get a new one, but it takes a couple of weeks for them to send it. You need to get a new card every few years with an updated photo. When you go in to renew you have to present three pieces of ID from a long list of possibilities.


You pick up the phone and get them to send you replacement cards. Takes a week or two but in the mean while if you need the Dr you just go to your Dr where the number is on file.


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## AngieM2

Is there one central computer network that keeps all the basic files on everyone that carries a health care card? or is it just within each teritory or province?


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## Tracy Rimmer

AngieM2 said:


> Is there one central computer network that keeps all the basic files on everyone that carries a health care card? or is it just within each teritory or province?


Health cards are issued provincially, Angie, and the provincial health ministries are entirely separate from each other. When you move between provinces, you have to apply for a new health card -- the programs have nothing to do with each other, other than that they are federally funded through transfer payments.


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## naturelover

It's not a cross the board national plan, health insurance is administered by each individual province and territory's health insurance plan, so there isn't a national database. Some medical care insurance that is offered in any given province or territory might not be covered in other provinces and territories but all provinces/territories share common standards nationally. You can see more information here: After you arrive: Health care

.


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## pumpkin

There is a Federal standard for all healthcare plans but if you need healthcare that is not available in your province or territory you are sent to the province that provides this care and that province will bill your province for the care you recieve. Also if you live in a town or in the north or in the rural areas where there are no major hospitals you will be sent to the nearest big hospital. Air ambulance as well as subsidy for family housing, food and transportation is provided. In other words if your child has leukemia and has to go to the Toronto Sick Children's hospital the mother or father will be sent along with the child. If your husband needs heart surgery you will also go along with him.


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## Kelly87

Becka03 said:


> is anyone else sickened by the whole we have more people on Food Stamps than the entire population of Canada?


I know this is an old post but this is what sickens me is when people like majority of you all on here saying bad things about people on welfare, first of all I receive food assistance and Medicaid for reasons like I have 2 children with disabilities my husband does work but he make enough to pay bills and but our kids things they need we struggle so much so not everyone on welfare is "lazy people taking advantage of tax payers dollars" my husband is a taxpayer himself. And as for taking away chips soda and treats we do but our children stuff like that but in rationed amounts so why should my children not be allowed to experience treats or nicer types of food because we receive food assistance? Only because majority of people who complain are just mad they can't take advantage of the system and lie and get the help so they take it out on ones who are actually on hard times and actually need the help. This subject literally just angers me so bad because not everyone on welfare are pieces of **** who deserved to have everything ripped from them. My husband is a college graduate and when I was able to work not to mention I worked 16 years no break as a manager who ran stores before having to quite to take care of my children so I have paid my dues and so has my husband into social security and taxes so therefore I hope everyone who has something negative to say on here about people on welfare I hope my point got crossed so maybe every time I see something about welfare there will be less people talking crap. TIA!!!!!!!!!


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## Kelly87

Diggin-it said:


> It makes me sick!! I know to many people who abuse the system. Biggest pet pev is the ones who get their monthly welfare (assistance) check and head the the tobacco store and buy $150 worth of cigarettes. Us tax payers should not have to float the bill for someones unhealthy habit! Then down the road we will be paying for their medical bill for a tobacco related sickness. This country will never get out of debt if it continues to hand out free money to sooooo many who abuse the system.





Becka03 said:


> is anyone else sickened by the whole we have more people on Food Stamps than the entire population of Canada?


I know this is an old post but this is what sickens me is when people like majority of you all on here saying bad things about people on welfare, first of all I receive food assistance and Medicaid for reasons like I have 2 children with disabilities my husband does work but he make enough to pay bills and but our kids things they need we struggle so much so not everyone on welfare is "lazy people taking advantage of tax payers dollars" my husband is a taxpayer himself. And as for taking away chips soda and treats we do but our children stuff like that but in rationed amounts so why should my children not be allowed to experience treats or nicer types of food because we receive food assistance? Only because majority of people who complain are just mad they can't take advantage of the system and lie and get the help so they take it out on ones who are actually on hard times and actually need the help. This subject literally just angers me so bad because not everyone on welfare are pieces of **** who deserved to have everything ripped from them. My husband is a college graduate and when I was able to work not to mention I worked 16 years no break as a manager who ran stores before having to quite to take care of my children so I have paid my dues and so has my husband into social security and taxes so therefore I hope everyone who has something negative to say on here about people on welfare I hope my point got crossed so maybe every time I see something about welfare there will be less people talking crap. TIA!!!!!!!!!


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## Bellyman

It is an old post, but I did find it interesting to read through some of it (maybe again?). 

Something that came to mind as I read was that Canada seems to do a pretty good job of getting the money where it needs to go. That's something that worries me quite a lot with the idea of setting up something similar in the US.

Case in point is the state of Pennsylvania. Years ago, they recognized that they have a LOT of roads to maintain and decided that in order to have the funds to maintain those roads, they'd place a substantial gas tax on all gasoline sold in the state. The people went along with that expecting that they'd have good roads. Well, it didn't work like that. The tax money continued to be squandered away on other things and the roads went into disrepair. But they still had to pay the tax at the gas pump. Recently, they have been talking about a problem with ridiculously high property taxes. The idea was floated that they could lower the property taxes and replace them with a sales tax since a lot of food and clothing is not taxed in PA. The idea has NOT been well received, mostly because the people of PA do not trust the government to actually spend the money as it's supposed to be spend (mostly schools) but rather squander it away and then have both high property taxes AND a much higher sales tax.

I'm sure Canada has it's issues of corruption and misappropriation to one degree or another. But it does sound like they have a pretty decent thing going. From someone who basically falls through the cracks of the ACA and ends up with no insurance at all, the Canadian system looks pretty darned good.


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## Terri

Kelly87: Welcome to HT!


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## GAZZA

mekasmom said:


> A family with three kids wouldn't get that much in many parts of the US.


Hi. I'm a retired Aussie and a pensioner aged 71. I receive a pension of around $1600 a month and my wife receives around $1100 a month on top of that. We live quite comfortably. I once thought about moving to the US and inquired through US and Australian government agencies and was informed I and my wife would not lose any of our pensions. We also receive medical and pharmaceutical benefits. If I had the money I would like to live in the US 6 months of the year and the other half here. Wylie


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## lmrose

In Nova Scotia there is the child tax benefit if you qualify by lower income. Not sure what it is now but 12 years ago when we still had a kid home the benefit was $300 a month for his needs. The maximum payment allowed was for the lowest income earner and was per child but I don't recall if it went down as the number of children went up in a family. The more the family income the less the chid tax benefit and there is an upper income cut-off where those over won't receive the benefit. There is also a $100 a month available for babying sitting cost for pre-schoolers.
There many food banks in Nova Scotia that people contribute too so those with less can eat. People here need a referral from Social Service or a Church to sign up for the food bank and access is once a month. Then there is the Salvation Army, who helps people in need with fuel or emergency food and clothing. The Knights of Columbus have a free soup kitchen every Tuesday; the Anglican Church here has a free breakfast Wednesdays, Beacon United Church has a free meal one a moth; The Wesleyan Church has a free lunch for the high school kids once a week; there is a kids breakfast program through the schools. There is a free seniors group and lunch twice a week through Temple Baptist Church. These are the places I can think of in Yarmouth where we live. There is also Yacro which provides services for challenged people and Parents Place for kids and Mom's.Shyft House helps kids 18 -24 yrs who are homeless or need a meal each day. Social Service will provide shelter and food to those who qualify.
The food given through local programs and churches is provided by donations both from the public, fund raisers and a couple of grocery chains. I must say the folks all over Nova Scotia are some of the most giving; sharing and compassionate people in the country.

Every August there is a fundraiser called the Coal Shed Music Festival where admission is non-perishable foods or a monetary donation which go to help supply our local food bank.
Also there are a few people who allow homeless youth into their homes for a night or too and feed them.There is a community garden where a person can have a 4x8 garden bed to plant what ever veggies they want as long as they take care of it. Finally there is a Community children's garden started and supervised by a local retired man and three other adults.
I figured out on paper on day if I had no money for food I could eat almost everyday in Yarmouth Town for free somewhere! Sure wouldn't starve. Except for Social Service all the above mentioned services are provided by good hearted people in the community.


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## emdeengee

Canada has a lot of social programs and safety nets applied through the Federal government or provincial/territorial governments or municipally. We are also a people who look out for others so there are a lot of private organizations that accept the responsibility of caring for those less fortunate or those experiencing trauma or difficult times. And yet there are a lot of people who fall through the cracks. For some it is their choice while for others they are not in an area where help is available or given freely. There are people who go hungry here and without homes. And this, like in the US, has a lot to do with income inequality and addictions.

I was discussing a similar question with my best friend who is a transplanted Texan. We both remember when JFK gave his "
Ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country" speech. She gave me something to think about. 

It was very inspiring and already what most people felt and did (and not just in the US) but since then the contract has not been upheld by the country (ies). The systematic decline and elimination of the middle class and betrayal of the elderly and veterans has changed that contract. It has become necessary for people to "ask what your country can do for you" This is not to say that you will not serve your country and do for it as always but when there is blatant inequality with money in control of the government then people need to look at changing things back. When you have hard working people falling behind year after year because profit is the only God to companies then it is not surprising that you have millions unable to feed themselves. And of course the propaganda is excellent at convincing people that the poor - a class that now includes millions who used to be middle class - are lazy and criminals and undeserving. Well some are but then so are some middle class and rich. But not the majority.


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