# Would Federal .22 lr Punch or CCI Stinger rounds have increased range and lethality in a Marlin model 60?



## Shrek

Posted 11/11/21 1:45 A.M.

While reading the American Rifleman , i read that these rounds had penetrability of close to a.32 caliber in handguns.

Would these type of rounds increase range and accuracy in a rifle without damage?

When I read about them the thought of having a small caliber rifle with close capabilities to larger calibers might be advantageous if a situation were to occur where my model 60 was my closest protection.

Do y'all think these would be better than the sub sonic hollow points I keep in the magazine tube since now in these times of roving dopeheads and such possible threats are more than just possums and armadillo around the place?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

any gun is better than no gun with limited exception.

the first thing to think about is the reliability of the ammo for me the bulk 22lr has been ho hum for reliability 1 in a hundred or 99% reliability if the storage was poor more failure than that.
better 22lr ammo has gotten closer to 100% for me 
Stingers while I shot fewer of them I have not had any failures with them.
Mini Mags also better than bulk 
cci standard velocity also has had better reliability than bulk for me and I have shot a lot of that 

bulk is cheap because they calibrate to make it fast , fast means less time in some cases spinning the priming compound into the rim in some cases 

the CCI stingers are impressive on small game 

even bulk hollow points that I use on Raccoons do a surprisingly good job from a rifle I had some 9mm 147gr LE hollow points , premium stuff however forma 4 inch barreled service handgun they did not expand well in raccoon thus a rifle with bulk 22lr 36gr hp gave a much faster cleaner kill with similar shot placement 

while it wouldn't be my go to tool , if it is what is most available I wouldn't worry about defending yourself with a 22lr ammo that you find is very very near 100% reliable no ammo is truly 100% but the QA on some sure gets it really close , centerfire just being a better ignition system than rim fire with a cartridge much less susceptible to moisture.

you can wash a 9mm in the washing machine and a 22lr in the same pocket , while I wouldn't trust that the 22lr is now inert many are while most 9mm fire after being washed.

you could go the other direction , shoot armadillos and possum with something in a larger more reliable cartridge than 22lr it would cost more but how many do you shoot , 20 a year?

I suppose you could be worried about noise on the armadillos and possum as they may likely be shot at night 

you could also change the way you load the M60 the first round down the tube could be your usual followed by 13 more of the stingers or punch. how often do you shoot more than 1 armadillo? 

are the rounds you have working well on armadillo you might very well just leave well enough alone and keep using them as long as they are reliable.

1550 is the approximate velocity of the punch out of a rifle 
about 1450 for the Stingers 

here is a guy chronoing both


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## Danaus29

I prefer Stingers when hunting varmints. Until a couple years ago they were easy to get and not horribly expensive. I hate wasting ammo by having to shoot a raccoon more than once. 

I don't know about a Marlin but my 10/.22 works beautifully with Stingers.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

to address the question of greater range here are some figures , the punch gets greater velocity by having a lighter 29gr bullet it can get about 1550fps form a rifle barrel or 1070fps from a 2 inch barrel 
light bullets suffer lower BC in the case of punch I found a 0.084 ballistic coefficient given











I can't say how that compares to your sub sonic round because I don't know what you are using 
to compare it to some other rounds 
like CCI mini mags typically considered a good round for 22lr performance and reliability
40gr bullet 1240fps 0.125 bc 









the punch has more velocity at 100 yards than the Mini Mag , a flatter trajectory but less energy 
the mini mag has the same energy at 200 yards that the punch had at 100 but with a 3 inch flatter trajectory might the punch get you more hits , do you need 100 yard hits or is 25 yards plenty in which case the punch has more energy and velocity.

no one is going to want to get shot with either at 100 yards , lethality will vary greatly depending on where hit 
the IDF was using very suppressed 10/22s from about 1986 to 2003 to persuade protest leadership to stop , they had a sub sonic round so figure 1050fps with a 40gr bullet probably round nose they would shoot the knees of Palestinian protesters , in late 2002 the prime minister ordered a lethality study after a few protesters died.
they were shooting at longer distances so range estimation had to be very good if they missed their mark on the drop numbers they could miss the knee and hit the groin when they did it was lethal. the other protesters could not get them to a hospital fast enough to stop the blead of a femoral artery hit.


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## Shrek

Posted 11/15/21 5:41 A.M CST

Thanks for the information. While doing my routine clean and oil wipe down of my weapons, I also checked my .22lr ammo and the boxes I have are CCI with 11 boxes JHP mini mag or lr rounds in the gasket sealed ammo box stored with desiccant pack since I bought them 5 or 6 years ago.

As the local shops prices on the Punch and Stinger ammo is high now and the projectile of what I have being higher weight, I guess my current stock is enough until one of the shops prices and availability improve.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

if the Mini Mags are working on racoon and possum and armadillo I wouldn't change a thing.


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## JJ Grandits

I think we got sort of nit picking on this.
All of our .22 long guns (Marlin, Savage, Ruger) all have their favorite brand of ammo but when push comes to shove they will pretty much eat anything, and if I am up to snuff on my marksmanship anything I aim at is toast.
A couple of feet per second or foot pounds mean little if I'm on target.
As far as bulk ammo goes I have several buckets of Remington golden bullets and am very satisfied with them.
My Mark 1 loves them.
The only .22 ammo I have a problem with is the Remington Thounderbolts.
Absolutely the filthiest, inaccurate ammo I've ever seen.
Total garbage.


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## Danaus29

My Ruger does not like Troy Landry ammo. The casings don't eject reliably.


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## Markansas

Danaus29 said:


> My Ruger does not like Troy Landry ammo. The casings don't eject reliably.


10 22 fun toy.. with cci copper jacket shells things can take a lot of shooting before they jam.. amazing


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## GunMonkeyIntl

Danaus29 said:


> My Ruger does not like Troy Landry ammo. The casings don't eject reliably.


What’s Troy Landry ammo? I’ve never heard of them.


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## Danaus29

Troy Landry .22 ammo






CCI Mini-Mag HV Ammo 22LR Troy Landry Swamp People Special Edition 36gr Plated Lead HP Box of 300 Rounds


CHOOT EM! and Give em' a Headache with Troy Landry Special Edition CCI Mini-Mag Ammunition CCI is known in the shooting sports industry for having reliable ammunition that delivers exceptional performance every time the trigger is pulled. It is this reliability that makes this the ammunition of...




www.bullseyenorth.com





WOW! I am glad I didn't pay that price for junk ammo! I works okay in a revolver but my Ruger does not like it.


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## Markansas

Danaus29 said:


> Troy Landry .22 ammo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CCI Mini-Mag HV Ammo 22LR Troy Landry Swamp People Special Edition 36gr Plated Lead HP Box of 300 Rounds
> 
> 
> CHOOT EM! and Give em' a Headache with Troy Landry Special Edition CCI Mini-Mag Ammunition CCI is known in the shooting sports industry for having reliable ammunition that delivers exceptional performance every time the trigger is pulled. It is this reliability that makes this the ammunition of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bullseyenorth.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WOW! I am glad I didn't pay that price for junk ammo! I works okay in a revolver but my Ruger does not like it.


ya know quality . when the add mentions . swamp people . in it . and no offence to the swamp persons here


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> What’s Troy Landry ammo? I’ve never heard of them.


he was an alligator hunter on Swamp people I watched it some years back , he used CCI mini mags in a SS model 60 marlin to shoot alligators.

CCI/ATK saw the marketing opportunity and started making a Troy Landry box 300 rounds of 36gr copper plated in a box with his name and picture on it 






CCI Mini-Mag HV Ammo 22LR Troy Landry Swamp People Special Edition 36gr Plated Lead HP Box of 300 Rounds


CHOOT EM! and Give em' a Headache with Troy Landry Special Edition CCI Mini-Mag Ammunition CCI is known in the shooting sports industry for having reliable ammunition that delivers exceptional performance every time the trigger is pulled. It is this reliability that makes this the ammunition of...




www.bullseyenorth.com


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## Markansas

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> he was an alligator hunter on Swamp people I watched it some years back , he used CCI mini mags in a SS model 60 marlin to shoot alligators.
> 
> CCI/ATK saw the marketing opportunity and started making a Troy Landry box 300 rounds of 36gr copper plated in a box with his name and picture on it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CCI Mini-Mag HV Ammo 22LR Troy Landry Swamp People Special Edition 36gr Plated Lead HP Box of 300 Rounds
> 
> 
> CHOOT EM! and Give em' a Headache with Troy Landry Special Edition CCI Mini-Mag Ammunition CCI is known in the shooting sports industry for having reliable ammunition that delivers exceptional performance every time the trigger is pulled. It is this reliability that makes this the ammunition of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bullseyenorth.com


a 22 could take a bull down if hit in the right spot.. and did not know that story of whom troy was.. kinda interesting


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

10/22s feed most ammo , when I have had a problem it was generally dirty which can happen quick or an ammo issue , it can also happen quick with poor storage conditions.

I have had 22lr ammo go bad in 1 year , stored in my van unfortunately it wasn't just a few rounds spring we shot about half a case I think they were the 3250 cases of federal we could get several years back it was federal auto match.

it worked well and one year later with the remainder of the case having stayed in the tool box inside my van not a sealed ammo can it turned the same guns into jam-o-matics we finished the case in bolt action rifles and revolvers for practice.

we run 10/22s from single digits to nearly tripple digits I thin 98 with high humidity was the hottest we had for a rifle clinic ,but I know the folks in southern states definitely get into the tripple digits for their rifle clinics they have a patch specifically for it Infernoseed

I have become a believer in dry lube I like Hornady one shot cleaner and dry lube it seems to work well over the temperature range especially the low side where many oils get thick and slow the bolt.

when you get cold you do have to keep your ammo warm or it has issues , we like CCI Standard Velocity we found keeping ammo in pockets works to keep it warm enough , a few guys used a small beer cooler with some hand warmers in it 
I liked a hooded sweat shirt to load mags , the kangaroo pocket you could get both hands in and dump your ammo and load out of the wind gloves off some sort of hand warmer muff could work well and could go on with a belt a hand warmer in the muff , the type like nfl quarter backs use but maybe a little bigger.


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## Markansas

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> 10/22s feed most ammo , when I have had a problem it was generally dirty which can happen quick or an ammo issue , it can also happen quick with poor storage conditions.
> 
> I have had 22lr ammo go bad in 1 year , stored in my van unfortunately it wasn't just a few rounds spring we shot about half a case I think they were the 3250 cases of federal we could get several years back it was federal auto match.
> 
> it worked well and one year later with the remainder of the case having stayed in the tool box inside my van not a sealed ammo can it turned the same guns into jam-o-matics we finished the case in bolt action rifles and revolvers for practice.
> 
> we run 10/22s from single digits to nearly tripple digits I thin 98 with high humidity was the hottest we had for a rifle clinic ,but I know the folks in southern states definitely get into the tripple digits for their rifle clinics they have a patch specifically for it Infernoseed
> 
> I have become a believer in dry lube I like Hornady one shot cleaner and dry lube it seems to work well over the temperature range especially the low side where many oils get thick and slow the bolt.
> 
> when you get cold you do have to keep your ammo warm or it has issues , we like CCI Standard Velocity we found keeping ammo in pockets works to keep it warm enough , a few guys used a small beer cooler with some hand warmers in it
> I liked a hooded sweat shirt to load mags , the kangaroo pocket you could get both hands in and dump your ammo and load out of the wind gloves off some sort of hand warmer muff could work well and could go on with a belt a hand warmer in the muff , the type like nfl quarter backs use but maybe a little bigger.


did not know that old man learning


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## Big_Al

For defense against predators around our little farm, I keep my Henry standard model lever action loaded with CCI Velocitors.
40 grain copper plated hollow point at an advertised 1400 fps.


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## Danaus29

@GREENCOUNTYPETE , the barrel doesn't look dirty but I'll check it again tomorrow. This is the rifle hubby replaced the ejector pin in because he didn't like the factory one. But I didn't have a problem with the Stingers that I ran through it after the Landy ammo. The Stingers are pretty old. They have a K-mart price tag of $4.97 on the box.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

not so much a dirty barrel in a 10/22 the chamber can be an issue clean it well 

you shouldn't need an extractor on a 10/22 to make it function when fired it is blow back operated the ejector is the piece on the trigger group that rides in the slot on the bolt it is also un-necessary unless you have the magazine removed. the Magazine on a 10/22 is also the primary ejector only if it is removed does the little sheet metal ejector do anything which is why many thousands of rounds later that ejector looks like new.

the bolt rides on rails in the receiver if those contact surfaces get dirty I have had issues with reliable feeding and full cycling 

the specifics of the malfunction help identify the issue 

I have a 2000 10/22 my wife bought for me that year for Christmas it shot stingers prefect but gave me issues with other rounds some of my issue was I had bricks of Remington Thunderbolts we picked up in the mid 90s for 9.99 a brick they would work fine for about 70 rounds then start giving me issues , they were very dirty , either because of storage or original quality of powder.

for year I just ran it for hunting with stingers 

then I wanted to do more target shooting with my son as he got older so I cleaned it , and could shoot 50-70 rounds of those thunderbolts , at that point I was basically burning ammo into a backstop counting rounds till stoppage , I found I could got 150 or more of the CCI blazers but only 50-70 without issue in the thunderbolts

I had a few issues I had a rough firing pin that rode out the top of the bolt and rubbed the receiver , stoned that down and made it smooth , buffed the bolt , cleaned the gun repeatedly , then switched to dry lube noticing the oil , the more oil I added the worse it gummed up either sitting or from collecting carbon and making a sludge of the carbon.

when I first got my 10/22 I did what most people wanting to keep a gun smooth and rust free do , I oiled it , probably with WD-40 not knowing any better at the time 

I didn't fully break it down either , didn't remove the bolt and scrub the inside of the receiver , spray out the trigger group with brake cleaner then spray oil often would spray a cleaner lube in the action and work the bolt a bunch of times. I didn't really know better at the time and it worked with stingers all the time.

stingers have more oomph to them higher pressure close to high as you can basically get in a 22lr chamber safely they also have Nickle plated cases that eject more smoothly than brass.

all these little losses were enough to stack up and cause bulk target ammo not to cycle the action as it got dirty.
the stingers could overcome these little losses .

Troy Landy mini mags are 36gr copper plated hollow points at 1260fps while actual Mini mags are 40gr at 1235fps 
it would be interesting to run some of the Troy Landry over a chronograph to see what they really are for velocity 

the 36gr Federal bulk pack claim 1260tps with a 36gr copper plated hollow point , I would sure wonder if the Troy Landry ammo isn't basically federal bulk pack by a different name 

I have had some of the 36gr Federal bulk pack ammo seem a bit weak in 10/22 (could have been storage)

take the bolt out clean and dry lube/cleaner the inside of the receiver get al the carbon out ,clean the bolt , make sure to get the bolt face clean and the breach face clean , get the chamber clean with a nylon brush and dry lube everything and put it all back together and go shoot some of the ammo see if it works and for how long it keeps working , if that Troy Landry stuff isn't good for you hunting or target shooting burn it up figuring out what is up with your gun.

once I switched to dry lube and ran some better ammo that 10/22 has a Lot of rounds through it now in the last 10 years , it didn't get many the first 10 years 

I have bought other new 10/22s since and they have run since day one on the dry lube with no issues 

I am using Hornady one shot cleaner and dry lube , there are likely others that work , the Hornady has very little smell and none when dry. it really gets the carbon out and seems to be plastic safe , the trigger group housing in new 10/22s is plastic as are many other gun parts on other guns


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## Danaus29

Ok, I just looked at the rifle. The _chamber_ (I promise I will learn the correct terms some day) looks clean. The little slider rail inside has some gunk at the end closest to the chamber. The inside part away from the barrel has some dust and gunk in it. I should have hubby show me how to clean it but he is terrible at teaching people to do stuff. The last time he cleaned it he used Super QCG instead of the Hoppes he usually uses.

I looked at the ammo closer. The _Landy_ ammo feels waxy compared to the Stinger casings. I was wrong about the price on the box too. The Stingers cost $1.97 when I bought them.

I still don't like using mini-mags on raccoons. Stingers give me a clean kill with one shot. The mini-mags are not as effective, in my experience. They would be okay for squirrel.


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## Markansas

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> not so much a dirty barrel in a 10/22 the chamber can be an issue clean it well
> 
> you shouldn't need an extractor on a 10/22 to make it function when fired it is blow back operated the ejector is the piece on the trigger group that rides in the slot on the bolt it is also un-necessary unless you have the magazine removed. the Magazine on a 10/22 is also the primary ejector only if it is removed does the little sheet metal ejector do anything which is why many thousands of rounds later that ejector looks like new.
> 
> the bolt rides on rails in the receiver if those contact surfaces get dirty I have had issues with reliable feeding and full cycling
> 
> the specifics of the malfunction help identify the issue
> 
> I have a 2000 10/22 my wife bought for me that year for Christmas it shot stingers prefect but gave me issues with other rounds some of my issue was I had bricks of Remington Thunderbolts we picked up in the mid 90s for 9.99 a brick they would work fine for about 70 rounds then start giving me issues , they were very dirty , either because of storage or original quality of powder.
> 
> for year I just ran it for hunting with stingers
> 
> then I wanted to do more target shooting with my son as he got older so I cleaned it , and could shoot 50-70 rounds of those thunderbolts , at that point I was basically burning ammo into a backstop counting rounds till stoppage , I found I could got 150 or more of the CCI blazers but only 50-70 without issue in the thunderbolts
> 
> I had a few issues I had a rough firing pin that rode out the top of the bolt and rubbed the receiver , stoned that down and made it smooth , buffed the bolt , cleaned the gun repeatedly , then switched to dry lube noticing the oil , the more oil I added the worse it gummed up either sitting or from collecting carbon and making a sludge of the carbon.
> 
> when I first got my 10/22 I did what most people wanting to keep a gun smooth and rust free do , I oiled it , probably with WD-40 not knowing any better at the time
> 
> I didn't fully break it down either , didn't remove the bolt and scrub the inside of the receiver , spray out the trigger group with brake cleaner then spray oil often would spray a cleaner lube in the action and work the bolt a bunch of times. I didn't really know better at the time and it worked with stingers all the time.
> 
> stingers have more oomph to them higher pressure close to high as you can basically get in a 22lr chamber safely they also have Nickle plated cases that eject more smoothly than brass.
> 
> all these little losses were enough to stack up and cause bulk target ammo not to cycle the action as it got dirty.
> the stingers could overcome these little losses .
> 
> Troy Landy mini mags are 36gr copper plated hollow points at 1260fps while actual Mini mags are 40gr at 1235fps
> it would be interesting to run some of the Troy Landry over a chronograph to see what they really are for velocity
> 
> the 36gr Federal bulk pack claim 1260tps with a 36gr copper plated hollow point , I would sure wonder if the Troy Landry ammo isn't basically federal bulk pack by a different name
> 
> I have had some of the 36gr Federal bulk pack ammo seem a bit weak in 10/22 (could have been storage)
> 
> take the bolt out clean and dry lube/cleaner the inside of the receiver get al the carbon out ,clean the bolt , make sure to get the bolt face clean and the breach face clean , get the chamber clean with a nylon brush and dry lube everything and put it all back together and go shoot some of the ammo see if it works and for how long it keeps working , if that Troy Landry stuff isn't good for you hunting or target shooting burn it up figuring out what is up with your gun.
> 
> once I switched to dry lube and ran some better ammo that 10/22 has a Lot of rounds through it now in the last 10 years , it didn't get many the first 10 years
> 
> I have bought other new 10/22s since and they have run since day one on the dry lube with no issues
> 
> I am using Hornady one shot cleaner and dry lube , there are likely others that work , the Hornady has very little smell and none when dry. it really gets the carbon out and seems to be plastic safe , the trigger group housing in new 10/22s is plastic as are many other gun parts on other guns


i like breakfree clp


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## Digitalis

Shrek said:


> Posted 11/11/21 1:45 A.M.
> 
> While reading the American Rifleman , i read that these rounds had penetrability of close to a.32 caliber in handguns.
> 
> Would these type of rounds increase range and accuracy in a rifle without damage?
> 
> When I read about them the thought of having a small caliber rifle with close capabilities to larger calibers might be advantageous if a situation were to occur where my model 60 was my closest protection.
> 
> Do y'all think these would be better than the sub sonic hollow points I keep in the magazine tube since now in these times of roving dopeheads and such possible threats are more than just possums and armadillo around the place?


I didn't see a straight answer yet. I hope this helps.

Most sub sonic 22lr has no place as a defense round. They basically turn your rifle into a pellet gun. The ONLY exception is Aguila's 60-grain SSS. They have a full power charge but they're dirty and did not shoot very well from my Marlin 60.

I'd take a Marlin 60 with good ammo over a .32 handgun any day. Both Federal Punch and CCI stingers are good ammo. Federal punch should be a little better for self defense.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

the Stingers about rip a squirrel in two , they are a little energy dump light fast bullet that about turns inside out where the Mini mags a heavier slower bullet that doesn't expand as violently the Stinger being a 20% lighter bullet going 20-25% faster 

this guy is a little long winded but he shows the disassembly and makes some good points about oil , most people used way too much oil in a 10/22 and that is what collects the grime that causes the malfunctions.

I disagree that the trigger group needs NO lube , I think that every metal component should have something to prevent corrosion , the Hornady one shot does just that quite well in comparison to other gun oils , if you like alternatives WD-40 Specialist Dry Lube PTFE Spray - Dirt & Dust Resistant Dry Lube | WD-40 does nearly the same thing and your local hardware store may have it or be able to order it , most gun shops have the Hornady one shot dry lube and cleaner or can order it. also available from Midway USA

I do run a Delrin rod in replacement to the bolt stop pin when you start to get 10s of thousands of rounds through a 10/22 the bolt stop pin gets so loose that you have to hold it in when you re assemble the action into the stock or it drops right out. do I think the steel pin wears ? no but I think it batters the holes in the aluminum receiver over time making them loosen. my Delrin pins cost me about 40 cents I bought one length of rod and cut them to length 

the newer 10/22s are a 4mm hex key for the take down rather than a standard screw.

if you have hoppe's #9 you can clean all the internals with that and nothing else is needed for lube 

he uses a brush he calls an M16 brush the double ended brush was included in the M16 cleaning kit it is a very handy thing to have around , Otis makes them with different stiffness of bristles you will do better finding them as universal double ended gun cleaning brushes but yes we also call it an M16 brush because I grew up around veterans of Vietnam. 
Otis All Purpose Gun Cleaning Brush Double Ended Nylon Package of 3 

hoppe's #9 can also be used to clean the firing pins and firing pin channels on other guns and is it's own anti corrosion. it is a thin oil that doesn't gum up 

the nice thing about the One shot , is you basically can't use too much the solvent evaporates and it leaves the dry lube behind , it is slick and not at all sticky. 

notice how his receiver has the paint worn off inside , my dads 1980s 10/22 didn't have that paint inside just a light speckle of what looked like over spray, the 2000 did , I think that paint wearing off was part of the stacking drags on the bolt , once it was worn off and cleaned out and not over lubed it has been good.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Markansas said:


> i like breakfree clp


it lubes well and creeps great , the issue is I find it gums up over time

the 10/22 doesn't need much lube it more often suffers from too much than too little

Breakfree CLP if your cleaning your M16 or AR-15 with it and doing it regular like you would be in the Army then you will probably never notice.


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## Danaus29

Figures it would need a 4 mm hex key. I lost the one from my set in a machine at work years ago. I haven't needed one since so it was not replaced. 

Hubby hid all his hex keys after that. He thought I would lose one of his in the machine.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Danaus29 said:


> Figures it would need a 4 mm hex key. I lost the one from my set in a machine at work years ago. I haven't needed one since so it was not replaced.
> 
> Hubby hid all his hex keys after that. He thought I would lose one of his in the machine.











5/32” Standard Hex Dogging Key with Full Loop, Allen Wrench Door Key for Push Bar Panic Exit Devices, Solid Metal - 6 Packs - - Amazon.com


5/32” Standard Hex Dogging Key with Full Loop, Allen Wrench Door Key for Push Bar Panic Exit Devices, Solid Metal - 6 Packs - - Amazon.com



www.amazon.com




5/32 is only 0.001 inches smaller and works fine , it happens to be the standard for push bar doors found in most commercial buildings now , they make these nice convenient ones to hang on a key ring


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## Danaus29

I don't have an American set. The machines were metric. I no longer run an inserting machine and I don't know for sure where my old set is hiding. But Lowes has sets! I'll probably pick one up next time I go shopping. The tail light housing on one of the vehicles has hex head bolts. The ones I bought to change the bulbs on the van were stolen when the van was stolen. The new bulb was still in the van when it was recovered. The bulb cost more than the tool to access the bulb.


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