# The times they are a changin



## primroselane (May 10, 2002)

"As recently as 1990, all but 7% of Americans claimed a religious affiliation, a figure that had held constant for decades. Today, 17% of Americans say they have no religion, and these new "nones" are very heavily concentrated among Americans who have come of age since 1990. Between 25% and 30% of twentysomethings today say they have no religious affiliation â roughly four times higher than in any previous generation.

...they have been alienated from organized religion by its increasingly conservative politics."

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion...mostviewed+(L.A.+Times+-+Most+Viewed+Stories)

Don't know if God is conservative or liberal but as best I can tell from reading the Old Testament (or even the New) He is seldom well-liked or popular. When it is necessary to say "Don't like any god more than me" there is definitely a popularity issue in play.

Wonder if fewer kids having a meaningful father figure in their lives has anything to do with God's irrelevence in their lives?


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Many young people turn away from organized religion at a point in life. Many also turn back as they mature. Usually once they realize that God is not a religion. He is God.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

primroselane said:


> Wonder if fewer kids having a meaningful father figure in their lives has anything to do with God's irrelevence in their lives?


That could be part of the reason. Another reason could be because there is a lot of hypocrisy among those who call themselves Christians and kids are quick to reject hypocrisy.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> they have been alienated from organized religion by its increasingly conservative politics


http://www.latimes.com/news/*opinion*/...wed+Stories%29

Consider your source


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## SageLady (Jun 10, 2008)

No religion or church for me. I've had my fill of them. I am a very spiritual person, I believe in God and Jesus Christ and I try to live my life in a Christian way, but No religion for me ever again.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I agree with that. Actually there is a whole group of us who do not believe in organized religion. We try to put our faith into daily practice, which is easier said then done.We do get together several times a week with Sunday being the largest gathering. We did buy a building for this purpose and it is called a church, but we are not an organized religion.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

> Another reason could be because there is a lot of hypocrisy among those who call themselves Christians and kids are quick to reject hypocrisy.


Agreed


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

primroselane said:


> Wonder if fewer kids having a meaningful father figure in their lives has anything to do with God's irrelevence in their lives?


It has to do with being raised by accepting and open-minded parents who raise their children to be objective free thinkers.

By implying that those who are non-religious were raised in some sort of dysfunctional environment, you are simply judging others who do not adhere to your own personal belief system.

Xenophobia: ânoun 

An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.


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## snoozy (May 10, 2002)

> Wonder if fewer kids having a meaningful father figure in their lives has anything to do with God's irrelevence in their lives?


Why do you assume that fathers are the ones who promote religion in a family?


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

snoozy said:


> Why do you assume that fathers are the ones who promote religion in a family?



I assumed the comment was meant to point out a rejection of male authority figures (Jesus was obviously male and God is called "Father") due to deep-seated resentment toward the missing earthly father??


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

Haven said:


> It has to do with being raised by accepting and open-minded parents who raise their children to be objective free thinkers.
> 
> By implying that those who are non-religious were raised in some sort of dysfunctional environment, you are simply judging others who do not adhere to your own personal belief system.
> 
> ...


I agree with this,also the fact that prayer in schools has just about been eradicated the kids are not being indoctrinated and are able to decide for themselves. Couple that with the catholic church scandals and some of the positions christians have taken, protesting Harry Potter books, coming out against condom use, demanding religious displays on public property and so on has put them at odds with the young people of today.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

I think it also has to do with the "me" generation. Seems like many young people are focusing more on their own wants and needs, regardless of what it means for those around them. They are no longer taught that their are absolutes. No such thing as right or wrong. Just look at the bullying/suicides. When people think that this is all there is, then they tend to focus on the moment, not on reprecussions of their actions.


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## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

primroselane said:


> Wonder if fewer kids having a meaningful father figure in their lives has anything to do with God's irrelevence in their lives?


I question that just for the fact that it's often the mother taking the kids to church anyway. My dad didn't go nor did my husband.

Just in my own circle, I have a 20-year-old atheist, 23-year-old agnostic, 17-year-old who is questioning God's existence, and her 17-year-old boyfriend is starting to say he doesn't believe in God. It's completely normal for young people trying to find their own way to test everything. They might come back around. 

As for radical conservatives influencing them, absolutely true. I raised my kids to be tolerant and accepting. I was raised to believe that God was kind and forgiving. All that "God hates gays" and similar trash has turned all of us off.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

This is truly sad. Perhaps this explains why more people today are turning to government to help solve their problems (than in past generations) rather than to the Lord.

Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty. (2 Cor.3:17)


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Well look at the world we live in.
To a young person think of this:
if God is so important, why aren't more people standing up vocally stopping things like no prayer in school?

Why is it ok to put jobs or other events ahead of HIM on Sunday?

Why do people use HIS name when they are not speaking to or about Him, and His followers do not get offended?

Where is the current, personal evidence of HIS place in our lives? 



That is why so many now have doubts. Because folks just treat God as a bit player no longer the force behind it all. 

Read Romans 1 and see just how much God says is wrong is now considered ok.


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## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

MJsLady said:


> no prayer in school?


I read something like this just about every day. Do any of your children actually attend schools that don't allow prayer? I don't know anyone who does. At our PUBLIC school there is prayer before PTA meetings, school programs, blessings before sporting events if someone wants to do it. The kids sing both secular and religious Christmas carols. I don't doubt someone complains from time to time but majority rules. And I've never seen anyone act disrespectfully.

Conversely there is a teacher who talks openly in class about the fact that he's an atheist and why. Sure I'd love to complain but it's a two-way street, we're entitled to our views so I guess he is too.


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

primroselane said:


> "As recently as 1990, all but 7% of Americans claimed a religious affiliation, a figure that had held constant for decades. Today, 17% of Americans say they have no religion, and these new "nones" are very heavily concentrated among Americans who have come of age since 1990. Between 25% and 30% of twentysomethings today say they have no religious affiliation â roughly four times higher than in any previous generation.
> 
> ...they have been alienated from organized religion by its increasingly conservative politics."
> 
> ...


Maybe it has to do with religion and those who practice and deliver that product, and their possible conduct?

I know that it makes me want to puke every time I hear of how a priest has molested children for decades and the church just tries to cover it up and/or pay off the family of the child.

God has nothing to do with religion or church, but most people are blind and follow like sheep.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

> God has nothing to do with religion or church, but most people are blind and follow like sheep.


Agreed
Christianity is NOT a religion, it is a Faith. Religion is created by man as an easier way to practice his Faith or pigeon hole God


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## Ana Bluebird (Dec 8, 2002)

I know lots of people that admit privately that they really don't believe in the fantasy of God, but won't admit it openly--- still in the closet---obviously for good reason and can't take the prejudice of religious people. They still bow our heads at those meetings---just to be respectful. Younger people are not so threatened and will say no to religion. And I do think there is something to this: "I think it also has to do with the "me" generation." Look up the term "narcissism"---parents and teachers are encouraging it in the name of teaching self-respect but have carried it way too far to the point of NO respect for others. The children are little "princesses" and "princes"---don't HAVE to respect others. But does that have ANYTHING to do with religion?? Maybe religion of some sort would help---at least help the parents.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

I think a lot of the "change" has to do with the BillClinton method of redefining words when people want to pretend something they are doing has changed(when it really hasn't changed). If you can pretend that words mean something different, then you can argue to yourself and others that reality has changed to, even when it has not changed. There's a modern trend among many religious people to try to distance themself from the word religion. Later it will probably be other words getting redefined.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

georger said:


> God has nothing to do with religion or church, but most people are blind and follow like sheep.



Are you actually saying God has nothing to do with his New Testament church?


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## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

Ana Bluebird said:


> I know lots of people that admit privately that they really don't believe in the fantasy of God


I agree. In the past people were more likely to hide "shameful" behavior like not believing in God. Along with the fact that they were pregnant before the wedding, drank secretly, had been raped, etc. All that was happening, but no one talked about it.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

It has to do with being raised by accepting and open-minded parents who raise their children to be objective free thinkers.

By implying that those who are non-religious were raised in some sort of dysfunctional environment, you are simply judging others who do not adhere to your own personal belief system.


This thread is a clear example of why people turn away from religion or never choose your religion to begin with. So far it has been said that non religious people are raised from broken homes, narcissistic, selfish, have shameful behaviour, have no respect for others, act like princesses, use the govt to solve their problems, ad finitum.

"Heaven" help you all and your deeply ingrained religious bigotry and judgemental behaviour. I will wander off and peel all of your labels from my forehead now...

*Xenophobia: ânoun 

An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange*


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## fetch33 (Jan 15, 2010)

I am approaching 50. I was raised Catholic. I now have no religious affiliation. I don't believe in God or an afterlife. Although I see religiousity as somewhat of a crutch, I harbor no feelings pro or negative against someone who is religious. Oddly enough, I am pro-life and the only reason I am not more pro-death penalty is that it takes so much money and resources to actually put someone to death. I believe in making the most of this life because this is the only go around... there are no do-overs.


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## Loquisimo (Nov 14, 2009)

primroselane said:


> Wonder if fewer kids having a meaningful father figure in their lives has anything to do with God's irrelevence in their lives?


No. That's an old canard, that "he who hates his earthly father will also hate his Father who is in Heaven". It just isn't so. 

Do you really want to know why? It's because a LOT of "Evangelical Christian" churches function more like cults, existing to glorify the preacher rather than Jesus. This is the result of tons of faux Bible colleges teaching earthly politics rather than the Bible. The colleges turn out thousands of preachers who are more interested in glorifying themselves than glorifying Jesus. The preachers then go on to spiritually abuse millions of trusting Americans. 

The end result is millions of spiritually wounded youth who see organized religion as a "cult of greed and power" instead of the belief in Jesus's sacrifice. These preachers each claim that only through them can a man get to heaven. When the dog and pony show collapses, everybody involved usually swears off organized religion forever. Youth are especially affected. 

I grew up in a similar cult situation, and was a raging atheist for years. It DOES affect youth. The massive numbers of people who turned to "Evangelical Christianity" in the 1990s instead found small cults of greed and power. I can post a couple articles that demonstrate how "holy men" glorify themselves.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/radiantlife/radiantlife1.html

One preacher's abuse of his flock. Note that honoring Jesus quickly turns into "honor the preacher".

http://www.rickross.com/reference/radiantlife/radiantlife2.html

The followup article from the Sacramento Bee, talking about other preachers who control their members' lives. Millions of young people have grown up in these situations. It should be no surprise that they now hate religion.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

chickenslayer said:


> I agree with this,also the fact that prayer in schools has just about been eradicated the kids are not being indoctrinated and are able to decide for themselves.


I dunno, seems they are being indoctrinated to me... 

That god is a myth from a primitive time.. At least that's what I get from my nieces and nephews.


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

Txrider said:


> I dunno, seems they are being indoctrinated to me...
> 
> That god is a myth from a primitive time.. At least that's what I get from my nieces and nephews.


OK you are right about that, the libs running the schools are indoctrinating the kids with a progressive agenda that will destroy the country.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

Txsteader said:


> Another reason could be because there is a lot of hypocrisy among those who call themselves Christians and kids are quick to reject hypocrisy.


It isn't only kids that see that and grow weary beyond words over it. I am 52 years old and have lost faith in religion. It is a combination of the preachers, the members of the church, and doctrine that I believe has less to do with belief in God and more to do with power and control.

Frankly, religion andf belief in God are perfect examples of a good place for "Mind your own business and believe as you will."


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Read the OT and you will notice something. When things are going good people turn from God when they start going bad they turn back toward Him. The problem is the people who do this will not stay with Him therefor things will go back to the bad because of human nature.


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

mmmm, maybe the young people have had more exposure to differing believes.

Like this guy, for instance, who has the gift of gab and makes a good case. Lopsided and cockeyed, but he does. I assume the cheering in the back is genuine.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o[/ame]


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I wonder what he thinks now?


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Religion is simply one of the many concepts developed by humans to provide a degree of comfort. Not everyone finds the same concept capable of fitting them as comfortably as it does others. Thats why there are so many religious concepts. 

For those who don't see the need for a religious fitting or find religions not fitting them in a flattering way , they often go religiously au natural very religiously


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

FyredUp said:


> It isn't only kids that see that and grow weary beyond words over it. I am 52 years old and have lost faith in religion. It is a combination of the preachers, the members of the church, and doctrine that I believe has less to do with belief in God and more to do with power and control.
> 
> Frankly, religion andf belief in God are perfect examples of a good place for "Mind your own business and believe as you will."


I'm about in the same boat.. Haven't been to a church since I was old enough to decide not to.

What's between me and god is between me and god, or not, and I need nobody else getting in the middle..


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## Home Harvest (Oct 10, 2006)

I was taught, and still believe, that there is a God. I can't accept that all the wonderful things I see around me are an accident. Most all of the ugly in this world are done at Man's hand, not God's. Religion is a method to make us more civil, and allow us to live together in peace. Half of the 10 commandments are clearly "human" laws and have nothing to do with our relationship to God.

So, I have a question for the athiests. No offense, but I have long wondered if you believe there is no God, no judgement, and no afterlife then what is your motivation to live a good life? I mean why not just please yourself with wine & women every day? Why not just take what you want, with no regard for the consequences? Maybe it's just me, but part of my motivation for living a good life is the promise of an afterlife at God's side. Yes, part of it is due to man-made laws, and staying out of jail, but not nearly all of it. I could drink beer, & watch porn every day and not break any human laws. I'm truly not trying to insult anyone. This is something I've long been curious about. I know most athiests are good people, my question is what's your motivation?


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## gideonprime (Oct 17, 2007)

Home Harvest said:


> I was taught, and still believe, that there is a God. I can't accept that all the wonderful things I see around me are an accident. Most all of the ugly in this world are done at Man's hand, not God's. Religion is a method to make us more civil, and allow us to live together in peace. Half of the 10 commandments are clearly "human" laws and have nothing to do with our relationship to God.
> 
> So, I have a question for the athiests. No offense, but I have long wondered if you believe there is no God, no judgement, and no afterlife then what is your motivation to live a good life? I mean why not just please yourself with wine & women every day? Why not just take what you want, with no regard for the consequences? Maybe it's just me, but part of my motivation for living a good life is the promise of an afterlife at God's side. Yes, part of it is due to man-made laws, and staying out of jail, but not nearly all of it. I could drink beer, & watch porn every day and not break any human laws. I'm truly not trying to insult anyone. This is something I've long been curious about. I know most athiests are good people, my question is what's your motivation?


I live a good life because it is good for the species. When I have children I want them to know that we can achieve more and go farther living that way than everyone for themselves.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Home Harvest said:


> I was taught, and still believe, that there is a God. I can't accept that all the wonderful things I see around me are an accident. Most all of the ugly in this world are done at Man's hand, not God's. Religion is a method to make us more civil, and allow us to live together in peace. Half of the 10 commandments are clearly "human" laws and have nothing to do with our relationship to God.
> 
> So, I have a question for the athiests. No offense, but I have long wondered if you believe there is no God, no judgement, and no afterlife then what is your motivation to live a good life? I mean why not just please yourself with wine & women every day? Why not just take what you want, with no regard for the consequences? Maybe it's just me, but part of my motivation for living a good life is the promise of an afterlife at God's side. Yes, part of it is due to man-made laws, and staying out of jail, but not nearly all of it. I could drink beer, & watch porn every day and not break any human laws. I'm truly not trying to insult anyone. This is something I've long been curious about. I know most athiests are good people, my question is what's your motivation?



I'm not an atheist, but if you look at the world today, compared to 30 or 40 years ago, I believe you'll see that many who don't believe in God don't believe their are consequences to their actions. That's one of the reasons, IMO, that we are seeing such a break down in our society. Look at all the bullying (which there has always been) that's causing kids to commit suicide. (which is a fairly new thing) If you believe that this is all there is to life, and this life is too hard, just kill yourself and it'll be over, right? Look at the mass killings when shooters go on rampages. Doesn't matter, life is meaningless. If we only have this life to live, then who cares what happens here.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

"No offense, but I have long wondered if you believe there is no God, no judgement, and no afterlife then what is your motivation to live a good life?"

First you'd have to define a "good life". Since there is no objective definition of it, it's kind of hard to identify who is living a "good" life and who is not. Different people have many different opinions on what a "good" life is.
Most people end up deciding what they consider "good" and go with that.

"Why not just take what you want, with no regard for the consequences?"

Most of the atheists I've known generally go with something along the lines of enlightened self-interest. People do what works, and violating the laws of society doesn't usually work too well.
I see a LOT of misconceptions out there about atheists, mostly from people who know NO atheists.:shrug:


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

A good ethical, moral life has nothing to do with being christian or not. If more people paid attention to what they are doing with their own life instead of what others are believing in, or doing with theirs, the world would be a far better place. Many atheists are very idealistic and do not accept religion because religion has created more war and hate throught history than any other "entity." Some of the atheists I know are the most ethical, moral, open-minded, educated, and productive people I know.


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## Scott SW Ohio (Sep 20, 2003)

Home Harvest said:


> So, I have a question for the athiests. No offense, but I have long wondered if you believe there is no God, no judgement, and no afterlife then what is your motivation to live a good life? I mean why not just please yourself with wine & women every day? Why not just take what you want, with no regard for the consequences? Maybe it's just me, but part of my motivation for living a good life is the promise of an afterlife at God's side. Yes, part of it is due to man-made laws, and staying out of jail, but not nearly all of it. I could drink beer, & watch porn every day and not break any human laws. I'm truly not trying to insult anyone. This is something I've long been curious about. I know most athiests are good people, my question is what's your motivation?


I think that I (a non-believer) came by my moral compass the same way most believers do - not from conscious choice, but because I was conditioned from early in life to accept the prevailing cultural framework, which identifies good and bad in Judeo-Christian terms.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Scott SW Ohio said:


> I think that I (a non-believer) came by my moral compass the same way most believers do - not from conscious choice, but because I was conditioned from early in life to accept the prevailing cultural framework, which identifies good and bad in Judeo-Christian terms.


Good answer, Scott.

I must admit though, that some of the things I thought were "ok" prior to my conversion became not so ok after I studied the scriptures (mostly having to do with the opposite sex!!).


Tim


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> So, I have a question for the athiests. No offense, but I have long wondered if you believe there is no God, no judgement, and no afterlife then what is your motivation to live a good life? I mean why not just please yourself with wine & women every day? Why not just take what you want, with no regard for the consequences?


Because that would not make me happy. (I'm actually agnostic, not an atheist.)


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

Home Harvest said:


> So, I have a question for the athiests. No offense, but I have long wondered if you believe there is no God, no judgement, and no afterlife then what is your motivation to live a good life? I mean why not just please yourself with wine & women every day? Why not just take what you want, with no regard for the consequences? Maybe it's just me, but part of my motivation for living a good life is the promise of an afterlife at God's side. Yes, part of it is due to man-made laws, and staying out of jail, but not nearly all of it. I could drink beer, & watch porn every day and not break any human laws. I'm truly not trying to insult anyone. This is something I've long been curious about. I know most athiests are good people, my question is what's your motivation?


Not necessarily an aetheist but I do have an opinion on this.

Belief in God and Jesus is no more a guarantee of leading a good life than not believing in them is a guarantee of leading a bad life. Need an example? What about the Catholic priest scandals that have rocked the church?

High morals and ethical standards are taught and accepted at an early age by those that raise and nurture you. Whether or not I have set foot in a church in over 5 years or not has nothing to do with the fact that it is simply not in my nature to rob, rape, murder or do other nefarious acts against humanity. 

My motivation for living a good life is simply the reward of living it. You don't need the promise of an eternal reward to know to treat others as you wish to be treated, to help others when you can, to be the best person you can.

To me sometimes it is as if the religious feel that they are buying their way into eternity. This time in church, this tithe, this helping at the annual chicken dinner fundraiser, and more, all are kept on a score card that buys you in...Something about that just strikes me as being wrong.


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## tiogacounty (Oct 27, 2005)

Haven said:


> It has to do with being raised by accepting and open-minded parents who raise their children to be objective free thinkers.
> 
> By implying that those who are non-religious were raised in some sort of dysfunctional environment, you are simply judging others who do not adhere to your own personal belief system.
> 
> ...


Well said, I would like to add that, oddly enough, in three decades of business dealings in this "deeply religious" country of ours, the most dishonest and downright slimy people that I have ever encountered were "good Christian folk", and took every opportunity to remind you of it. OTOH, I deal with truly great people who are deeply and quietly faithful. I think the issue for a lot of us middle aged and young people is that we were either started as young adults, or were born, in an era of true cynicism. We watched politicians who were "good Christians" that spoke of greatness while bankrupting our country, and selling our future to the global corporatocracy, we watched as the charismatic, bible thumpers left the pulpits in hand cuffs, charged with everything from stealing from their flocks, to being sex addicts and junkies. We watched a globally disgraced Catholic Church that loathed even admitting to ongoing horrors like raping little boys, much less stopping the practice. Sorry, but I'll have to "just say no" to those values.


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## Lyra (Sep 15, 2009)

I have had my fill with people who claim that they are religious but don't attend church and those that attend church but only to go through the motions.

Honestly, there are very few people who understand what it means to be religious and have truly opened their hearts to God. 

So yes, I believe the reason why so many families and individuals are screwed up is because they do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

Lyra said:


> I have had my fill with people who claim that they are religious but don't attend church and those that attend church but only to go through the motions.
> 
> Honestly, there are very few people who understand what it means to be religious and have truly opened their hearts to God.
> 
> So yes, I believe the reason why so many families and individuals are screwed up is because they do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.


And I know families that because of a strict religious background, and constantly warning and chastising the kids about sin, have sent kids off into drugs, alcohol, the need for counseling and a totally messed up view of themselves and the world. I even know a family that has shunned a member of the family because he is Gay. Is that an example of a loving Christian home? 

Why is it so hard to believe what you wish and stop judging others that don't believe as you do? Isn't there even a Bible verse that says something like "Judge not less you be judged?" According to that all this sanctimomious if you don't believe as I do is 100% against the teachings of the Bible. seems a sure pathway to Hell to me...


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## Lyra (Sep 15, 2009)

FyredUp said:


> And I know families that because of a strict religious background, and constantly warning and chastising the kids about sin, have sent kids off into drugs, alcohol, the need for counseling and a totally messed up view of themselves and the world. I even know a family that has shunned a member of the family because he is Gay. Is that an example of a loving Christian home?
> 
> Why is it so hard to believe what you wish and stop judging others that don't believe as you do? Isn't there even a Bible verse that says something like "Judge not less you be judged?" According to that all this sanctimomious if you don't believe as I do is 100% against the teachings of the Bible. seems a sure pathway to Hell to me...


So a difference in opinion is now judging. Welcome to the world. We all have opinions and we all judge.

Every religion has guidelines to follow. This new age belief that love allows individuals to ignore all responsibility for actions is what is dismantling our society. It is an unrealistic approach to life.


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## Jill J C (Sep 8, 2010)

Lyra said:


> So a difference in opinion is now judging. Welcome to the world. We all have opinions and we all judge.
> 
> Every religion has guidelines to follow. This new age belief that love allows individuals to ignore all responsibility for actions is what is dismantling our society. It is an unrealistic approach to life.


I agree


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

Lyra said:


> So a difference in opinion is now judging. Welcome to the world. We all have opinions and we all judge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And you have judged me and put words into my mouth that I didn't say. Thank you so very much for proving my point so eloquently.

Here let me repost what I said earlier so maybe this time you will read it. 



> Not necessarily an aetheist but I do have an opinion on this.
> 
> Belief in God and Jesus is no more a guarantee of leading a good life than not believing in them is a guarantee of leading a bad life. Need an example? What about the Catholic priest scandals that have rocked the church?
> 
> ...


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## Lyra (Sep 15, 2009)

If that is what you truly believe, then it really doesn't matter what I say. You just don't get it.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

Lyra said:


> If that is what you truly believe, then it really doesn't matter what I say. You just don't get it.


No, YOU don't get it. I have not tried to change YOUR mind about how YOU choose to live. I have not said what YOU do is wrong for YOU. YOU on the other hand have judged me and declared that because I don't see things the same as YOU that I am wrong in living how I please.

Frankly, the world would be a far happier place if people like YOU would live as YOU please and after that mind YOUR own business and as long as what others do doesn't harm YOU, live and let live.

The Wiccans have a saying that maybe you need to expand your mind to really try to understand. "As ya harm none, do as ye will."


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## Lyra (Sep 15, 2009)

FyredUp said:


> No, YOU don't get it. I have not tried to change YOUR mind about how YOU choose to live. I have not said what YOU do is wrong for YOU. YOU on the other hand have judged me and declared that because I don't see things the same as YOU that I am wrong in living how I please.
> 
> Frankly, the world would be a far happier place if people like YOU would live as YOU please and after that mind YOUR own business and as long as what others do doesn't harm YOU, live and let live.
> 
> The Wiccans have a saying that maybe you need to expand your mind to really try to understand. "As ya harm none, do as ye will."



Ok, I can't judge you but you can judge me. You can tell me how to live my life but I can't tell you how to live yours which I never did in the first place. Yeah, that makes sense.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

From this thread people have said that basically all young people are bad, that atheists are bad, that all immoral and bad acts of today are caused by those NOT believing their religion and so on. Not much bigotry here, eh, Sonshine.

http://hbr.org/2007/07/the-next-20-years/ar/1

You'll have to pay for the reprint since I'm not buying it for you all but you'll all get a taste of what is really going on. That harvard business article is actually a series of books now and it explains the generations. Right now the Millenial generation are those young people you're talking about, and fall into the "Heroic" series of generations. They, being raised by X-Gen and very late Boomers, are shaped by Helicopter parents who were themselves left to their own devices and only semi-raised. It's cyclical. XGen is known as the Nomad generation, and the Nomad generations are known for their less cared for childhoods and very tough and gritty middle age times, they are strong and no nonsense and are the most likely generation to espouse do it yourself changes in society. Nomad generations appear at a crisis point and are the ones with enough mettle to get through those points and start anew, usually by just being practical, louder and more dominant over those who might go on the same path or rebuild in the old fashion.

Millenials, on the other hand, as Heroics, will follow a very different trend. They are the more gentle successive generation that finishes and smoothes the rough edges on whatever new society Nomads build. They are amenable to what is new and have a very different way of thinking than their independent parents. This version of Heroics has an additional nudge in that they have been swamped with information from birth. They background awareness is very high, yet they are extraordinarily non-confrontational about it, not interceding when they see wrong or judging others. They also suffer or gain from a high level of group think. They work best in teams and don't usually stand out as leaders. The superstars of this generation are the ones who can lead, a trait that isn't common in them. Their group think ability means they will happily synergize right over a cliff also, but if on the right track, they can produce an outcome that is far superior to any single thinker because of their ability to group think.

Socially, they are much more obedient, more likely to stay with parents longer, go through shorter periods of rebellion and have less passion and more stability in marriage. This is almost opposite to their XGen parents....although divorce rates in XGen are far below that of their parents and they are more likely to stay together or remarry quickly in order to have a "family unit". Mills will be even more stable in that regard. They will be loving and indulgent parents but also not very perceptive, unlike their eagle eyed XGen parents. They also are less detail oriented when left on their own. They are more socially accepting and genuinely don't care about many things that sent their parents and grandparents into frenzies of action, primarily because that requires a stand out action or exclusion, something they are not likely to do. Mills will also find religion tiring and confusing as it in not in compliance with their accepting nature and functions by exclusionary principles and hinges on the need to feel superior to others who do not follow their thoughts. They will be too polite to say so, but will catalog the contradictions from their vast background and lifetime of information and simply walk away. Spirituality is likely to rise, but without form or doctrine.

=====

Okay, that's a synopsis. For all those who immediately pipe up and say Well, MY kids not like that please hold you spots. Not every XGen is dominant, independent, can do, tough and difficult to live with but that very well defines our generation. Mills, as a generation, are defined as above. Not everyone will fit the mold because the spectrum is wide, but in general, kids have been much more fun to raise! 


=====

As for those who still, after dozens of threads in which they asked this and got answers and still don't get it.....atheism does not equal evil. Satan is a christian thing not an atheism thing. Thousands of years of time before your dude hit the streets people were alive and just fine. Mores have changed, sure, but atheists are least likely to be convicted of a violent crime of all major religions, they have the 2nd lowest divorce rate, and very high rates of charitable giving. They join fellowships and talk and have charities and so on. 

Key POINT for all those haters out there and bigots who continue to put horns on us:
They are NORMAL people who simply understand that this life is the life you have and must not be wasted. That every other human, regardless of what they believe, just has this life and we must not waste theirs. That to do anything to another that will take from that life is by definition then, wrong. That means in speech or deed. That means we have to follow a closer and more tightly held moral codes! We are good people and not defective in any way. It is rather tiring to constantly be assumed to be some sort of subhuman animal, Sonshine, Eddie and all the rest of you who hate us so.


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## Lyra (Sep 15, 2009)

ChristyACB said:


> As for those who still, after dozens of threads in which they asked this and got answers and still don't get it.....atheism does not equal evil. Satan is a christian thing not an atheism thing. Thousands of years of time before your dude hit the streets people were alive and just fine. Mores have changed, sure, but atheists are least likely to be convicted of a violent crime of all major religions, they have the 2nd lowest divorce rate, and very high rates of charitable giving. They join fellowships and talk and have charities and so on.
> 
> Key POINT for all those haters out there and bigots who continue to put horns on us:
> They are NORMAL people who simply understand that this life is the life you have and must not be wasted. That every other human, regardless of what they believe, just has this life and we must not waste theirs. That to do anything to another that will take from that life is by definition then, wrong. That means in speech or deed. That means we have to follow a closer and more tightly held moral codes! We are good people and not defective in any way. It is rather tiring to constantly be assumed to be some sort of subhuman animal, Sonshine, Eddie and all the rest of you who hate us so.


All I am getting from your long post is a massive amount of insecurity. You and Fyrdup have issues with confidence in your lack of spiritual convictions. Both of you have also posted comments that contain threads of anti-establishment anger. I can imagine how both of you would react to not making it on to a sports team.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

Lyra said:


> All I am getting from your long post is a massive amount of insecurity. You and Fyrdup have issues with confidence in your lack of spiritual convictions. Both of you have also posted comments that contain threads of anti-establishment anger. I can imagine how both of you would react to not making it on to a sports team.


LOL...you're funny in your attempt at insults. Did you get paddled much in high school?

No, not insecure at all. In fact, I'm "out". I just have a sincere and honest desire to see those who persist in not understanding and therefore causing yet more friction and unacceptance of those that are different finally understand. If that means I have to explain it over and over, so be it. However, those whose bigotry isn't even hidden by the most insincere questions are fairly trying. After all, if I were black and certain members kept asking me, "So, if you not inferior to white, why do you all do x, y or z" I don't there would be much doubt that there was a serious bigotry issue. Yet for religion it's a free for all of hate and accusations.

Anti-establishment anger? You mean that I, like oh..say...80% of this board aren't pleased with what's going on in politics now, then yes. But mixing my libertarianism with atheism is really a cheap shot. Libtards often do that though.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> All I am getting from your long post is a massive amount of insecurity. You and Fyrdup have issues with confidence in your lack of spiritual convictions.


Wow. That right there is what Momma would have called a "doozy"! 

Anyway, as to the question ... my answer would be: "God of the Gaps," and the gaps are getting smaller. When people truly believed a supernatural being controlled the wind and rainfall, it probably made sense to throw the occasional virgin in the volcano to appease said being. Nowadays, we have scientific explanations for much of what used to be considered "acts of God" and thus superstition has declined. Virgins everywhere are grateful!


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> Wow. That right there is what Momma would have called a "doozy"!
> 
> Anyway, as to the question ... my answer would be: "God of the Gaps," and the gaps are getting smaller. When people truly believed a supernatural being controlled the wind and rainfall, it probably made sense to throw the occasional virgin in the volcano to appease said being. Nowadays, we have scientific explanations for much of what used to be considered "acts of God" and thus superstition has declined. Virgins everywhere are grateful!


There ya go, well put


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## Lyra (Sep 15, 2009)

ChristyACB said:


> LOL...you're funny in your attempt at insults. Did you get paddled much in high school?
> 
> No, not insecure at all. In fact, I'm "out". I just have a sincere and honest desire to see those who persist in not understanding and therefore causing yet more friction and unacceptance of those that are different finally understand. If that means I have to explain it over and over, so be it. However, those whose bigotry isn't even hidden by the most insincere questions are fairly trying. After all, if I were black and certain members kept asking me, "So, if you not inferior to white, why do you all do x, y or z" I don't there would be much doubt that there was a serious bigotry issue. Yet for religion it's a free for all of hate and accusations.
> 
> Anti-establishment anger? You mean that I, like oh..say...80% of this board aren't pleased with what's going on in politics now, then yes. But mixing my libertarianism with atheism is really a cheap shot. Libtards often do that though.



It isn't an insult. It is an honest observation. 

Oh, and I am also a fellow Libertarian so I don't really have a clue as to why you are bringing politics into this.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

Lyra said:


> Ok, I can't judge you but you can judge me. You can tell me how to live my life but I can't tell you how to live yours which I never did in the first place. Yeah, that makes sense.


Seriously, can you read? Because I can't for the life of me see where I told you how to live. Unless telling you to mind your own business about how others live is telling you what to do.

Please reread what I posted and tell me where I told you how to live.



> No, YOU don't get it. I have not tried to change YOUR mind about how YOU choose to live. I have not said what YOU do is wrong for YOU. YOU on the other hand have judged me and declared that because I don't see things the same as YOU that I am wrong in living how I please.
> 
> Frankly, the world would be a far happier place if people like YOU would live as YOU please and after that mind YOUR own business and as long as what others do doesn't harm YOU, live and let live.
> 
> The Wiccans have a saying that maybe you need to expand your mind to really try to understand. "As ya harm none, do as ye will."


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

Lyra said:


> All I am getting from your long post is a massive amount of insecurity. You and Fyrdup have issues with confidence in your lack of spiritual convictions. Both of you have also posted comments that contain threads of anti-establishment anger. I can imagine how both of you would react to not making it on to a sports team.


I have no lack of confidence in spiritual beliefs. Only you have said I have none. I never said that. Because mine don't mirror yours doesn't mean i have none. I find it hysterical that I have said repeatedly live as you choose, believe as you wish, worship as you see fit, yet you say I am trying to judge you. You on the other hand have repeatedly attacked mine and others beliefs that aren't the same as yours. Is this the loving Christian that you expouse? It seems I am far more forgiving of you and your beliefs than you are of mine. Imagine that?

Please do show me ONE EXAMPLE of my anti-establishment anger. Again you have judged me without knowing truly a thing about me. Anti-establishment? Really? Hmmm, I am a career firefighter, volunteer firefighter, a former fire chief, former village board member, current EMS board member, tech college instructor, very supportive of my schools and community. Yep, sounds pretty anti-establishment to me. Perhaps you confuse my lack of patience for fraud, waste, abuse and the over use of power by government officials as anti-establishment. You are wrong. I expect people to act in a professional, ethical manner, and whatever their position no matter how high or low on the food chain is irrelevant to me.

LOL, not making the sports team? Never happened, I played varsity football, varsity baseball and wrestled at the varsity level. Please don't equate me with what you are used to. I believe life is meant to give us disappointment and failure on occasion if for no other reason than to keep us humble. I have taught my kids that there will be times when despite doing your absolute best you simply will not win. The failure of society in this regard is whether kids win or lose today they have been taught they will be rewarded. Self esteem has become more important than performance and that is a crying shame.

Okay, I can't wait for your next misinterpretation of what I have said here.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Reading through this thread show show why there is a decrease in belief in God.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

pancho said:


> Reading through this thread show show why there is a decrease in belief in God.


God hasn't changed since time began. The behavior of the so called believers is what has changed and has led to so much dissatisfaction with religion, the church, and God.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Home Harvest said:


> So, I have a question for the athiests. No offense, but I have long wondered if you believe there is no God, no judgement, and no afterlife then what is your motivation to live a good life? I mean why not just please yourself with wine & women every day? Why not just take what you want, with no regard for the consequences?


Empathy for your fellow humans is plenty enough motivation. Logically thinking through the issue and having the intelligence to know if everyone acted right the world would be a better place..

You see, some folks are smart enough, and strong enough, to live a good life without being bribed with a promise of some later reward in an afterlife, or from fear of threat of punishment in an afterlife. They live a good life because they know it is the best way to live for themselves and their fellow man.

Sorry but the question was silly IMO..


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

I'd venture to say that the "point" of organized religion has changed in the same degree that America has changed politically from the time of our "Founding Fathers"

I'm all about live and let live provided you follow the Golden Rule. My understanding may not be your understanding but that's ok, this is America.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

mpillow said:


> I'd venture to say that the "point" of organized religion has changed in the same degree that America has changed politically from the time of our "Founding Fathers"
> 
> I'm all about live and let live provided you follow the Golden Rule. My understanding may not be your understanding but that's ok, this is America.



I think we agree 100%.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

FyredUp said:


> God hasn't changed since time began. The behavior of the so called believers is what has changed and has led to so much dissatisfaction with religion, the church, and God.


Sadly, I think this is true. Too often you can no longer tell who is a Christian by their actions, because many act like those who are not Christians. It's not a matter of religion, which in my opinion is not what Christianity is about, it's more about how Christians are being taught and how they are living their lives.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

mpillow said:


> I'd venture to say that the "point" of organized religion has changed in the same degree that America has changed politically from the time of our "Founding Fathers"
> 
> .


I would have to disagree with that.

Religion was used to govern over people in many early cultures before structured governments were set up. Early religion and government were actually one and the same in many ways. Religion was used to enact laws, justify political killings and wars, gain land and monetary holdings, obtain political power, and control the people of a nation and attack people of other nations.

In this country we have laws to separate church and state, however many churches and people find ways to skirt around the laws. Preachers often indoctrinate their followers on how to vote, etc. An example would be during elections in the recent past where churches were actually promoting political candidates on the altar and in church flyers - according to law, they should have lost their tax exempt status. US candidates often toss around the words "Muslim" and "Christian" in their speeches.

Our founding fathers worked hard to separate church and state, yet it seems politicians today are working their hiney's off to continually polarize Americans.

Most Americans have no concept of what our founding fathers were escaping from when they came to this country. You know the old saying...without knowing our past, we can know no future...


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

My point is that both politicians and preachers have been misguided and/or misleading to the detriment of both church and state. One can no more trust their Faith to a Catholic priest (I was brought up Catholic) than believe that the person they voted into office won't misuse power or misrepresent the will of their constituents....Senators Snowe and Collins in my state.

Hypocrisy seems to have become an acceptable standard for both church and state.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

mpillow said:


> Hypocrisy seems to have become an acceptable standard for both church and state.


I agree, and it has been going on since the beginning of organized religion/govt.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Yeah. I believe that by the fifth century, the Catholic church already was selling indulgences. "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from Purgatory springs." You're gonna have to go back a longgggg way to find that time when everyone was pure in heart and motive!


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

That's why it's so important to study the Bible for yourself and not just take someone else's word for what is in it. Too often people have started cults, and it's so easy to do because they don't read the Bible for themselves and cult leaders know what the Bible says, in most cases, and twist the scriptures to fit their agenda.

Everyone keeps talking about religion, but religion really isn't what it should be about. That's where many people have their stuggles. A relationship with Jesus is what Christianity is all about.


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## Jill J C (Sep 8, 2010)

Ditto with what Sunshine said. 

We are told to study diligently. We as family go to church, but it is our responsibility to read our bible and live our lives as God tells us to in his word. Even if you go to church every Sunday morning, Sunday evening, and Wednesday evening you would barely scratch the surface of the bible.


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## Jill J C (Sep 8, 2010)

Religion is a gathering of like minded people. I find strength in that. It is about seeking a personal relationship with God.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Eph 4:5 One Lord, *one faith*, one baptism, 
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 

Christianity is not a religion. Religions are created by men. A catholic is no better off than a mormon if religion is their thing.

God gave us a book transcribed over centuries by different people, yet uniform and non contradicting. That just does not happen with humans. Put 2 people in a room for 10 minutes and they will disagree on something. Many people separated by centuries supporting the same root facts? Listing the same guidelines for life? Including diet, marital issues, child rearing and moral decent living? Good grief today every month a new diet issue comes up saying what we thought last month is now wrong. Marriages are crumbling, people have turned wrong in to ok...

Religion played a part in that, by dumbing down God. I am not religious, but I am strong in my Faith. I can by Faith attend any church and be at peace. I can also worship at home with just my Beloved, because Christ said where 2 or 3 are gathered in HIS name He will be there in the midst of them. (Mat 18) It does not just happen in a specific building. THE CHURCH is the saved believers, not the b&M they meet in. THE CHURCH will exist even in places where meeting is forbidden.

Regardless of what Webster says, Faith and religion are not one and the same.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Christianity is not a religion. Religions are created by men.


Since the Deity (if one exists) does not manifest itself in our sphere in any comprehensible fashion, everything we "know" about God is merely the opinion of another human being. 

One would think the fact that it is all sandcastles-built-in-the-air and angels-dancing-on-the-heads-of-pins would make believers very humble about their faith ... but curiously, that is not how it seems to work, is it?


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

willow_girl said:


> Yeah. I believe that by the fifth century, the Catholic church already was selling indulgences. "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from Purgatory springs." You're gonna have to go back a longgggg way to find that time when everyone was pure in heart and motive!


You're off by a century, wg.  Don't forget the 4th Century edits where the Catholic church removed (not rewrote, just removed) certain scripture from the Bible that would allow them more control of the people. 



Sonshine said:


> That's why it's so important to study the Bible for yourself and not just take someone else's word for what is in it. Too often people have started cults, and it's so easy to do because they don't read the Bible for themselves and cult leaders know what the Bible says, in most cases, and twist the scriptures to fit their agenda.
> 
> Everyone keeps talking about religion, but religion really isn't what it should be about. That's where many people have their stuggles. A relationship with Jesus is what Christianity is all about.


Concur. I was glad to see the rise of so many "nondenominational, Bible-based" churches over the years. 

I guess it's obvious that I don't support organized religion. I do, however, study the Bible and rely on my PERSONAL relationship with Jesus Christ to get me through each day. If I need more understanding, I ask for understanding.

And having said that... upon stating a particular belief in one thread, don't you know that one member said that if I can't back up the way I feel with exact scripture, that my beliefs are all wrong. So much for the "personal" in "personal relationship", huh?


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

EasyDay said:


> I guess it's obvious that I don't support organized religion. I do, however, study the Bible and rely on my PERSONAL relationship with Jesus Christ to get me through each day. If I need more understanding, I ask for understanding.
> 
> And having said that... upon stating a particular belief in one thread, don't you know that one member said that if I can't back up the way I feel with exact scripture, that my beliefs are all wrong. So much for the "personal" in "personal relationship", huh?


Yep they forget when Christ says where 2 or 3. He did not put a building on every corner. He welcomes worship when or where ever 2 or 3 gather in His name. Going to a religious place does not mean you are Faithful. The way you live and act shows if you are or not.

WG, still a book written over centuries with no inconsistency, explain that if it is indeed only by human hands. Just because one does not understand God does not mean he does not exist.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> WG, still a book written over centuries with no inconsistency, explain that if it is indeed only by human hands.


Umm, that's a slow pitch! The Talmud and later the Bible always were considered sacred texts, thus they would have been treated with great reverence and carefully passed down through the generations.

That said, there have been occasional typos in the manuscript reversing the meaning of some passages! I believe one version of the Bible misprinted a Commandment so that it read, "Thou shalt commit adultery" (imagine how enthusiastically that must have been received!) and another mistakenly indicated, "The fool says in his heart, There is God." 

Of course, these mistakes quickly were ferreted out and the flawed copies eliminated, just as we would expect in the case of a holy book.

At the same time, there exists some disagreement between Christians as to what actually constitutes the Bible (i.e., the Apocrypha and gospels that were not admitted to the canon). At the end of the day, humans wrote the texts that make up the Bible, and then other humans edited and assembled those texts. To put your faith in the Bible ultimately is to put your faith in those other Christians who set the stage so long ago. That's certainly your prerogative, of course (it's a free country) but I have no interest in going there.


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## primroselane (May 10, 2002)

I believe the Bible is inconsistent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_consistency_of_the_Bible

I believe that the Universe started instantly from essentially nothing.

I believe myths are explanations of truths.

I believe that God, if God is God, cannot be put in the small box of my comprehension. Therefore, to me, God will be inconsistent. 

I am married. My wife is inconsistent. Because she is inconsistent does not make her less real. Neither does her inconsistency diminish my love for her. Nor does it diminish her love for me.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

MJsLady said:


> Eph 4:5 One Lord, *one faith*, one baptism,
> Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
> 
> Christianity is not a religion. Religions are created by men. A catholic is no better off than a mormon if religion is their thing.
> ...


Exactly.


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## -TWO- (Mar 25, 2008)

When years of time shall pass away, and earthly thrones and kingdoms fall, when men, who here refuse to pray, on rocks and hills and mountains call, God's love so sure, shall still endure, all measureless and strong; Redeeming grace to Adam's race-The saints' and angels' song.

From "The Love of God"


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