# worms stealing onion plants?



## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

For 2 years I have had some thing stealing my home raised onion plants. Usually goes on for a week or so after planting.
I thought it was slugs, mice or birds. So I have been covering with sheets to slow it down, till they reroot.
But this morning I found a quite a few of them top down stuffed into worm holes. Like they had been drug there and pulled into the hole.

Any one have any ideas on what i can do about this? I like the worms, but there is a limit to every thing.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Moles or chipmunks. I did have a problem once with chipmunks,they would tear everything out of my flower pots. I'd plant them back,next day,same thing.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I had that same thing happen to my onions last year. They were definitely worm holes. Moles and chipmunks make much bigger holes. 

It stopped when I spread sawdust on the ground around the onion plants. I think the worms were looking for organic material to eat and the onions are all there were that they could drag underground.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Danaus29 said:


> I had that same thing happen to my onions last year. They were definitely worm holes. Moles and chipmunks make much bigger holes.
> 
> It stopped when I spread sawdust on the ground around the onion plants. I think the worms were looking for organic material to eat and the onions are all there were that they could drag underground.


Ok, I'll try that. I had to buy onions this last winter because of this. And I don't like store bought onions much. They are hot in comparison to the yellow sweet spanish I grow.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Mowed grass works too. I had just happened to have the sawdust on hand.


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## Ky-Jeeper (Sep 5, 2010)

worms, don't think so.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Ky-Jeeper said:


> worms, don't think so.


what do you think it is then?


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

My guess would be voles.I've had them do beans,like that trying to pull the plant down in their small burrow.Poke around under your onion row and see if you don't find a small tunnel where they use to stay below ground.Watch this clip. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UHr6IGjE-0[/ame]


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Nightcrawlers do that. They feed on dead or dying vegetation and the tops of onion sets and plants qualify. I have loads of them and sprinkle shredded leaves on the soil after planting onion sets. If you've got nightcrawlers and maple trees, you'll find clusters of seeds at each hole. Worms eat everything except the seed. In the case of onion sets, they also only eat the outer skin. On Victory Garden one time, Peter Seabrook used a scissors to nip off the "tails" of each set. Said that if he didn't do that he'd have to plant the same bulbs the next day.

Martin


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Since worms comsume only dead and decomposed matter, if the onions are viable it is some sort of vole or larvae eating them.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Shrek said:


> Since worms comsume only dead and decomposed matter, if the onions are viable it is some sort of vole or larvae eating them.


The skins and tails of onion sets ARE dead matter! Nightcrawlers collect such organic matter during the night and pull it to their middens where they dine on it during the day. Rather eerie at times to see pigeon feathers and maple seeds waving back and forth during a day when there is no wind. 

As I said, they'll eat all of the maple seed wing but not touch the actual seed. With an onion set, they will eat the dead outer skin and leave clean onion behind. The onions also will be mostly upside down since they will have been pulled in by the dead tops/tails. 

Adding link to nightcrawlers. Under "Biology", note: "An unusual habit of this species is to pull leaves into the mouth of its burrow where they partially decay before being eaten."

Lumbricus terrestris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Martin


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Yes it is worms running off with the onions. No vole can fit in a hole smaller than my pinkie finger. I wouldn't believe it if it hadn't happened in my garden last year.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> My guess would be voles.I've had them do beans,like that trying to pull the plant down in their small burrow.Poke around under your onion row and see if you don't find a small tunnel where they use to stay below ground.Watch this clip. Locate Voles with the "Apple Sign Test" - YouTube


Moles/voles- something is getting my sweet peas just like this. I thought it was bad seed,until I planted some more. It was then I found a tunnel,right under my entire pea fence.


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## barefootflowers (Jun 3, 2010)

I am so glad you posted this thread! The exact same thing has been happening to all of my onions. I thought I was crazy thinking that it was worms pulling them down into the holes. So the remedy is to "mulch" with leaves or some other matter? And once the onions start growing then they are safe, right? I do have loads of leaves. I can't wait to tell my husband about this. He looked at me like I'd finally lost it when I was telling him the worms were out for my onions.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

barefootflowers said:


> I am so glad you posted this thread! The exact same thing has been happening to all of my onions. I thought I was crazy thinking that it was worms pulling them down into the holes. So the remedy is to "mulch" with leaves or some other matter? And once the onions start growing then they are safe, right? I do have loads of leaves. I can't wait to tell my husband about this. He looked at me like I'd finally lost it when I was telling him the worms were out for my onions.


Yes, once the onions are growing, they are quite safe. I am not joking when I say that I supply food for the crawlers so that they leave the onions alone. If you don't have something like shredded leaves, grass clippings will work. It's not 100% successful but I may only have to replant 1 or 2 out of a 100 instead of 10 or 20. I was the one who introduced them to this part of the city at a time when a lifelong resident assured me that there wasn't a single nightcrawler in the entire city. There are so many in my garden that they will easily consume several inches of shredded leaves in a single season. A trade-off is that there has never been very many endogeic type worms despite efforts to get them started. The only ones I ever find are a small species which barely grows to about 1Â½" long. 

Martin


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I notice the the larger the plant the less chance of them taking it.

Last year I had 2 batches of seedlings and they took most all of the second smaller batch, that I had started late because my first batch hadn't germinated very well.


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## laughaha (Mar 4, 2008)

The nightcrawlers always push my onions out of the holes and I have to replant every morning for like a week...... Do I have gourmet/snobby worms?


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

They don't push them out, they pull them out. Either way, the sets have to be planted again. 

Also, freshly-planted onion plants are fair game. Vegetation doesn't have to be totally dead for nightcrawlers. You might go out one day and find some plants bent double with the tops pulled down into their hole. They'll also do it with small tomato seedlings but not brassica for some reason. 

Martin


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

It sure explains why my neatly planted rows had onions growing inbetween them last year. The stupid worms moved them around and the tiny roots must have taken back off.


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## Ky-Jeeper (Sep 5, 2010)

The more I think about, I can how or why a nightcrawler would do that. Love to catch that on video.


Ky-Jeeper said:


> worms, don't think so.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Ky-Jeeper said:


> The more I think about, I can how or why a nightcrawler would do that. Love to catch that on video.


Their mouths are like suction cups and have powerful mouth muscles which act as rudimentary teeth for grasping and chewing organic material. In the north woods of MI, MN, and WI, they can consume 10,000 years accumulation of duff in one season. If the Wikipedia link wasn't enough to establish proof, one will find that that unique feature is almost automatic when describing that species. 

biology - Lumbricus terrestris
Lumbricus Terrestris Earthworm Common Species Areas Europe
Lumbricus terrestris - Definition | WordIQ.com
Lumbricus terrestris

Martin


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## Ky-Jeeper (Sep 5, 2010)

Yes I'm in agreement. My post is a typo. Should of said " I can see how or why a nightcrawler would do that" sometimes my onion bulbs are quiet soft or nearly non existent in firmness. Lot of food there to feed on. I still would to see that happen on video just for the shear amazement.


Paquebot said:


> Their mouths are like suction cups and have powerful mouth muscles which act as rudimentary teeth for grasping and chewing organic material. In the north woods of MI, MN, and WI, they can consume 10,000 years accumulation of duff in one season. If the Wikipedia link wasn't enough to establish proof, one will find that that unique feature is almost automatic when describing that species.
> 
> biology - Lumbricus terrestris
> Lumbricus Terrestris Earthworm Common Species Areas Europe
> ...


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

As long as this is a sort of Nightcrawler 101, it's a chance to clear up something that some hear but don't understand. Often one hears of someone who wants to find something to get rid of them in their lawn. Immediately a hundred people will attack him for wanting to kill those wonderful worms. The crawlers only eat what they find on the surface. A single crawler will have a round area a foot across and any organic matter within that circle is drawn to its hole for consumption. It will spend all night doing that if material is available. Most of that eventually goes through the crawler and it does a loop and deposits the manure on the surface. The resultant buildup is called a midden. It's a combination of food to be eaten, food already consumed, and whatever inedible remains. They may be up to an inch high. Definitely not something desired on a well-manicured lawn or golf course greens.

Martin


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Ky-Jeeper said:


> Yes I'm in agreement. My post is a typo. Should of said " I can see how or why a nightcrawler would do that" sometimes my onion bulbs are quiet soft or nearly non existent in firmness. Lot of food there to feed on. I still would to see that happen on video just for the shear amazement.


Just for you, I've found what you need to erase any doubts which you or other skeptics may have had. Read the story first and then go to the videos.

Sequim's âworm guy' finds little known facts about earthworms [**Gallery and Video**] -- Port Angeles Port Townsend Sequim Forks Jefferson County Clallam County Olympic Peninsula Daily NEWS

Martin


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## Ky-Jeeper (Sep 5, 2010)

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.


Very good video. Truly awsome. To me anyway.


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## Ky-Jeeper (Sep 5, 2010)

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.


Very good video. Truly awsome. To me anyway.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Ky-Jeeper said:


> YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
> 
> 
> Very good video. Truly awsome. To me anyway.


This may sound crazy but I have not learned a single new thing about nightcrawlers since the Internet came into being. My mother somehow was an "expert" on them and I don't know why. She was known to fish every chance she had and established nightcrawler colonies in many of her favorite fishing spots. She knew every location where crawlers could be gathered so I learned that at an early age. By the time I was in my teens, that was well established in my knowledge. Then came high school biology class and the first thing to be dissected was a nightcrawler in 1953 to learn what they are on the inside. Ten years later, came home here with 2" of crawlers in the bottom of a 5-gallon pail to establish the first colony in this city. That success prompted another fishing friend to do the same a few years later. Still quite local with a 2-acre community garden complex less than a mile away and not one single crawler.

For Shrek, your "domestic" vermiculture worms may only eat dead material but they aren't even close to Lumbricus terrestris. I, too, maintained a large colony of red wigglers in the mid-1960s when it was still considered a novelty. We fishermen here have known a long time that fresh grass clippings are the food of choice to keep nightcrawlers alive and happy. The videos in the previous link will attest that they are not averse to seeking out food with the most nutritional value for them and that's green living matter. They don't live up to 8 years by merely waiting for something to die within their maximum feeding radius. 

Martin


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

So what is the solution to for this. I put the saw dust, but they are still doing it. I have had to replant onions for 3 days now.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Sawdust won't do it since wood is the last thing that they'll eat. Shredded leaves are their "candy" but hard to find right now. Grass long enough to cut? Give them grass clippings. Got hay for your rabbits? Shred some of that with your mower. Straw won't work since that's only a small step above the sawdust. And all the while you are dealing with them, keep telling yourself that they are very good and that it was Mother Nature's mistake in not creating any for much of this continent. 

Martin


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Voles tunnel underneath the garden bed and pull plants from underneath, leaving only a little hole where the plant used to be. I have stood there and watched it happen- the plant starts to shake and then disappears below ground. It is infuriating. 

Birds are terrible about pulling up onion sets. They see the green top at a time of year when so little else is green and pull the sets out of the ground. Sometimes I woudl find them scattered around the bed, sometimes, just gone, but again, I actually saw the birds come down and tug at the tops of the onion sets. 

Paquebot, we don't have the same nightcrawler problem that the Midwest has. We have relatively few nightcrawlers here. I personally do not think it is worms, because other than birds, nothing ever bothered my onion sets. The voles did not seem to like alliums as well as the potatoes, beets, carrots, peas and other crops. 

If you cover the onion sets with remay and staple it to the ground with bent coathangers or weigh it down with small rocks until the onions have more root anchorage, the birds will leave them alone. If you do this and they still disappear and there is no tunnel beneath the missing plants, then I suppose something else might be the culprit. A sure sign of voles or pocket gophers is that you water the area and the water just seems to disappear- it is going down into the tunnels. 

Moles do not eat plants and are different from voles. Moles eat earthworms and bugs, etc.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

An ideal tee-shirt--a nightcrawler lugging an onion back to his hole--who woulda thunk it?

geo


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

chamoisee said:


> Paquebot, we don't have the same nightcrawler problem that the Midwest has. We have relatively few nightcrawlers here. I personally do not think it is worms, because other than birds, nothing ever bothered my onion sets. The voles did not seem to like alliums as well as the potatoes, beets, carrots, peas and other crops.


Squashnut knows what she has in her garden and anyone with nightcrawlers knows what they will do. No animal would accumulate a number of them and stuff them down a worm hole. Neither would any bird. The link to the videos show what they are capable of doing. If they can collect large stones to their middens, a little onion set is little effort. 

Martin


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Are you aware that I used to live maybe 3 blocks from Squashnut? I have gardened here for decades. We simply do not have those kinds of worms here OR someone at some point transplanted a few only to her garden. :-/


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

chamoisee said:


> Are you aware that I used to live maybe 3 blocks from Squashnut? I have gardened here for decades. We simply do not have those kinds of worms here OR someone at some point transplanted a few only to her garden. :-/


Are you aware that those kinds of worms are not native to this continent? They are European. Wherever they are found means that someone planted them in that area. Even then the subsoil must be to their liking or they will move to some other area which does suit them. One needs only go a few blocks from my house and not find a one despite them having been here almost 50 years. In this entire state, as well as MI and MN, there is not a single native earthworm of ANY type. I would suspect that the same is true for Idaho.

Martin


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Yeah, I understand what you are saying, but Northern Idaho is not Wisconsin. I've seen nightcrawlers, occasionally, but nothing like what you are describing. 

We do, however, have a *native* earthworm near here: Giant Palouse earthworm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

chamoisee said:


> Yeah, I understand what you are saying, but Northern Idaho is not Wisconsin. I've seen nightcrawlers, occasionally, but nothing like what you are describing.
> 
> We do, however, have a *native* earthworm near here: Giant Palouse earthworm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


There is only one Lumbricus terrestris and it is the same if found here or in Idaho and it is not native. Anything that you will find in your garden originated in Europe. 

Also, when was the last time you saw a Giant Palouse earthworm? They are extinct in much of their original range. 

Martin


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Whatever. I just live here, have gardened here in a number of sites for decades, and have actually seen other critters destroy various parts of various plants. But no, it's earthworms.:hohum:


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Well i don't know how they got here but I have them. And they are doing just as Martin described. 
I also have red wigglers, those we put in the garden ourselves left over from fishing.
We have brought in all kinds of organic material in our garden over the years and much of it was stored on the ground when we loaded it up for transport and it is very possible they came home with that.
They do not look like the Giant Palouse earthworm at all.
Instead they look like the picture on this site: http://www.knutsonlivebait.com/night_crawlers.html


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

SquashNut said:


> Well i don't know how they got here but I have them. And they are doing just as Martin described.
> I also have red wigglers, those we put in the garden ourselves left over from fishing.


They may have come from a neighbor who is or was a fisherman and dumped his leftovers in his garden. Having them in your garden and keeping them there is a good sign that your subsoil is to their liking. It took them probably 25 years to move from my back garden to the front lawn and they still are not in all of it. At one time, coal clinkers were used for a landscaping base the worms don't like it. They also somehow stop about two-thirds of the way to the back neighbor's house and there are none in front of it. On the other hand, they dashed up the street through back yards and flower gardens and went 3 blocks in probably less than 10 years. I know that some gardeners have tried to establish them in the community gardens but that is pure silt over pure clay over pure sand. Apparently that combination is not what they can handle. 

Martin


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Well our gardening policy is to feed the worms, so they are a bit pampered. But it looks like it is time to start selling fishing bait. Or go fishing ourselves.

Next year the big ones are going to be relocated from the onion bed. Not sure if that will help or not.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

I also have always pampered mine. There wasn't a single worm of any type here until I turned that huge gob loose. I didn't know if they were going to "take" or if I had wasted an hour picking them off a parking lot where I worked. Where they were released had long been a garden so it wasn't dead soil. They definitely "took" and never left. Those in the permanent potato patch don't even have to work to find food as I spread shredded leaves and other organic matter so thick that they only have to stick their heads out of the ground to eat. Most impressive time was in summer of 1976 following an ice storm. Ended up taking down 2 elms and anything too small for a neighbor to burn was shredded fairly small. This was late spring so the trees were well leafed out. The resultant material was spread about 2" thick all over the garden. The leafy bits were the first to vanish. Then the bits of green bark. Finally all that remained were pieces of woody twigs. One could go out at night and shine a light into the garden and the ground would seem to be alive. It was the worms moving the twigs around! Eventually even the twigs were gone before the summer was over.

Martin


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

I've got an idea, J, ask your nearby HT gardener over tonight to observe them in action and be real "nice" and offer to share some. Of course, if she's your friend now, that may be subject to change in a few years!

Martin


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Paquebot said:


> I've got an idea, J, ask your nearby HT gardener over tonight to observe them in action and be real "nice" and offer to share some. Of course, if she's your friend now, that may be subject to change in a few years!
> 
> Martin


No, that's not going to happen. I like my worms way too much for that. I think I'll keep them.


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## KYfarmer (May 8, 2011)

I believe the same things has happened to me. I planted out 10-3 rows per bed 100' beds of onions in black plastic mulch after about a week i noticed I had a lot of missing plants. Then after about 2 weeks i noticed about 2/3 of the plants were gone. I thought i either over water or birds pulled them out. But it sounds like the earth worms are thriving under the black plastic.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

KYfarmer said:


> I believe the same things has happened to me. I planted out 10-3 rows per bed 100' beds of onions in black plastic mulch after about a week i noticed I had a lot of missing plants. Then after about 2 weeks i noticed about 2/3 of the plants were gone. I thought i either over water or birds pulled them out. But it sounds like the earth worms are thriving under the black plastic.


If you know that you have the nightcrawler Lumbricus terrestris, you will lose various small seedlings of many species if they can get hold of them. Onion sets and plants alike are fair game. The first couple leaves of onion seedling plants quickly die and new ones take over. If you have crawlers, it would not be uncommon to find a lot of freshly-planted onion plants bowed into the worm hole. The worms usually don't have enough strength to pull the plant out of the ground but possible if the soil if real loose and the plant has not been able to establish new roots. But I still love them!

If anyone wants to establish a colony, visit a bait shop and ask for nightcrawlers. May be marked as Canadian dew worms since many are imported from Canada. May also pay up to $10 for a dozen depending upon your location. Turn them loose in an area with decent soil with low percentage of sand and lots of surface organic matter. If the soil texture is suitable, they will immediately begin to make a permanent burrow which may go down 6'. If they "take", and able to mate, you're on your way to having them forever. If they end up in your garden where you want to till real deep, no problem. When they sense a problem from above, they are immediately as far down into their burrows as they can go! 

In addition to their potential green diet, a downside is that if you have endogeic type worms you may lose them. That type wanders horizontally through the top 8" or so of soil and consumes any organic matter it finds. I suspect that when they penetrate a nightcrawler burrow they become food. Introduction attempts here have failed despite tremendous amounts of organic matter being in the soil. The only that survives is a small one which only works the top several inches but is not an epigeic type. It either stays out of the way of the nightcrawlers or their reproductive rate is able to stay ahead of their losses.

One added comment. Darwin supposedly said that all of the soil on Earth had gone through earthworms. He didn't know about North America. The fertile plains of America and Canada were made without worms. Same for all of MN, WI, MI, and New England. Then came European settlement and everything that Mother Nature accomplished in 10,000 years was changed forever. But I still love them! 

Martin


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Yesterday I went out and took the some what battered onion plants back out of the worm tunnels and replanted them. Then I put some straw down each hole, followed by a small rock or 2. This morning there was only 3 onions pulled into the ground instead of the 12-15 from yesterday. I am thinking that I will have to do this every morning for a few more days. But that is better than buying the regular onions at the store next winter.
I will have to reduce the number of the night crawlers too.
Dh has now told me that we were the ones who introduced them to the garden. i guess i had forgotten doing it. 
Short og growing our onions in a big planter box, not sure what else to do. But it would have to be huge, as i think we planted some 700 plants.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

They are hungry, feed them! If you use grass clippings, the worms will spend much of the night gathering as much as they can for their middens. Shred some hay and they'll do the same. Right now, all you apparently have to offer them are onion plants. You need to give them something else which is easier for them to handle. Blocking their holes only deters them for a night or two. Then they just move their burrow entrance an inch or so. 

Martin


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

My grass hay is filled with seeds. So I hesitate to put it in the garden or else It will look like a lawn in no time.
I just got a bag of leaves left out front for me this morning. I guess that will have to do them.
I also have slugs so if I put mulch on there it encourages them. 

Do they like coffee grounds?


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

You don't have to "mulch" thick with leaves. Just spread enough to cover about 50% of the soil with a layer of only 2 or 3 leaves thick. They won't last long enough for slugs to take up residence. If the leaves are dry enough, break them up in your hands and sprinkle them all over the bed. 

All earthworm species love coffee grounds. That was one of the main items in their diet when I kept red wigglers.

Martin


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Thought of another food that they like, feathers. If you have chickens, rake up some of the litter and sprinkle that on. The feathers would keep them busy for awhile.

Martin


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

How about cat fur, will that work?:hysterical:


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## frankva (May 21, 2009)

Cabbage, shredded. Anything vegetable. Quick and soon.

I have seen crows pull onion sets. Annoying. Worms only seem to turn over a set here when I get to them. I figure they were thinking big.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Yes, earthworms will also eat hair!

Martin


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Funny, the worms quit pulling my onions when I spread the sawdust around the plants. Maybe because it was the sawdust from the rabbit pans. 

Right now my asparagus bed is full of sycamore leaf stems sticking out of the ground. The worms have been pulling the leaf parts underground.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

When I made a larger new cold frame two years ago, it happened to be over some nightcrawler burrows. I set it up for starting tomatoes in 4-packs and 6-packs using a peat and Jiffy Mix mix. Soon there was a lot of "shrinkage" in certain cells. Crawlers had enlarged the drain slits and were eating the mix. When I set up the cold frame last fall for this spring's planting, I spread a layer of leaves first and then put the starter packs in. Thus far it seems to be working. It's just one more thing to think about if you want them in your garden. 

Martin


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## frankva (May 21, 2009)

They can be naughty, but I like having them. 

Do you anticipate mold/fungal issues with the leaves?


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

No problems so far and many of the tomato varieties are outgrowing the 6" clearance. I only spread the oak leaves at about 3 leaves thickness. They've been constantly damp for well over a month so they may also be breaking down from soil bacteria. I'm certain that the crawlers are still in there but none of the starting medium is disappearing so far.

Martin


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

When we were going to have a frost a few days ago, covered all of the potatoes with whole white oak leaves since they would be a lot lighter on the plants but still efficient for blocking the frost. Also spread some between the rows. Past two days, it was not uncommon to look and see a leaf waving back and forth but no wind. That happens when the crawlers try to pull the leaf into the burrow by using the stem. After a brief shower early this evening, the entire potato patch seems to be alive with the leaves moving. The crawlers have got their work cut out for them this year. Normally they get shredded leaves and don't have to work very hard. They've got 4 months to clear off several inches of whole leaves and I'm betting that they will do it.

Martin


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I remember years ago when we raised crawlers, we fed them cornmeal.


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