# Sudden change in LGD behaviour - running wild, chasing cows



## Rectifier (Jun 12, 2011)

My Akbash have always liked to hang around the yard and with the flock for the year I have had them. They are both male and castrated, brothers from the same litter.

All of a sudden, within one week, they have been wandering FAR and misbehaving. Got a call today from a neighbour 4-5 miles away that they have spent the past 3 days chasing his cows and eating a dead calf. At least he doesn't blame them for killing the calf, and I doubt they did as they play gently with the lambs, nudge and lick them.

They have completely abandoned the flock and were guarding the calf carcass against all comers (including the cows) 4 miles away. He said they also appeared to be chasing cows for no reason. They only come home for supper, though they seemed to be guarding the flock through the night.

He ran them off with the quad and they came home. One is tied up in the barn now with the sheep and the other will not leave without him (I hope as he has lost his collar). This is obviously a poor state of affairs for what are supposed to be guardian dogs.

Any ideas what has happened and if this can be reversed? 
These dogs have been such a pain in so many ways that I am really starting to consider selling them or otherwise replacing them with a donkey (have heard many good things about donkeys)


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Are they young dogs? Sounds like you&#8217;ve had them since puppyhood and are now in full flung adolescence. You could have them take turns being contained. I would use a kennel rather than a chain.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

It seems to me your dogs have expanded their territory. They've gone to protect the dead calf-where certainly predators will be congregating. "chasing cows" could be keeping the cows away from the carcass, my dogs do that to a dead duck. 

I don't think they abandoned their flock, just they increased their "flock" to include the cows. They know instinctually predators will be after that carcass. Removing it would help.

I'm not there to witness their behavior, but this is what it sounds like. This is why they recommend good fencing for lgd's. I would electrify a small paddock, (18" off the ground inside, and the top) teach them to respect a fence, lock them in for 10-14 days. Hang some smelly bacon on the wire so they get a good, solid lesson/zap. Mace certain they cannot escape without getting zapped. Turn them loose only after their permanent pasture is electrified. Now that the behavior is established, it will take a foolproof retraining method to stop that behavior.

If this doesn't work I would separate them, even re-home 1 if need be, and I read them wrong.


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

I know you are frustrated and giving up is something that only you can decide. My view on the subject is that owning lgds is not for everyone. This is especially true of Akbash and Kangals. You asked if this behavior can be reversed and the answer is YES. The subject of having more than one puppy at a time brings about debate but my opinion is for most people the answer is NO. As Maura has recommended you need one dog in a pen that is not escape proof until you get your entire pasture secure. If you got them at weaning age then they are a little over a year old and they are just entering adolescence which involves peer pressure. What one does the other wants to do and they will feed off of each other. You will have to spend time with them making necessary corrections with consistency. If you are not consistent they will not respect you and will not listen. Work with one at a time so as not to confuse them. It is very rewarding to have finished guardians but it will take some time in most cases. Another point of debate is the use of shock collars but I have found them to be invaluable. I very seldom need to use mine but have found that you can't make a timely correction if the dog is five hundred yards from you when he jumps a fence or chases stock, etc.


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## Rectifier (Jun 12, 2011)

Thanks for your replies everyone!

They are indeed young dogs, I got them at about 6 months of age, now they would be a year and a half. They have fairly distinct personalities.
They definitely feed off each other and love to play and goof about together. With the "goofy" dog tied up, the other spent the day sleeping outside the corrals and hanging out with the sheep. So re-homing the "goofy" dog and keeping the "serious" dog would be a serious option.

Neighbour said they were acting "funny around the cows" and I'm not sure exactly what was going on without seeing it other than eating the calf. They usually do not chase sheep at all. They love to eat dead stock, they will dig and dig and dig up mine no matter how deep I bury it. I now bury in my manure pile with electric fence around it. For the record there are several herds closer than his and I don't know why they chose his to hang around all day. I doubt they seriously think they can control a 5 mile radius? There are hundreds of coyotes out here!

Foolproof escape proof pasture is very hard. I'm not sure if they can be truly contained here by fencing other than page or chain link. I already use a HT smooth electric fence, 50 mile AC charger, which is well respected by the dogs. But they quickly learned the low points that could be crawled under, and there are a lot of them as I have large acres in a hilly area with lots of water. I had to draw the line for how many posts to pound somewhere! Add the fact that I will be adding another large pasture a mile from home this year, and it feels like a recipe for trouble. This is the attraction of the donkey as he would happily stay inside the electric fence.

I was originally thinking to split them up, one at home and one in the south pasture a mile away. However I feel they would likely both escape to look for each other as they are best bros.

For now I like the kennel idea. Are you thinking of a true small "kennel" or more of a big dog run? I have a sorting pen that is nearly inescapable which is currently unused, 10x20. A little electric and it would be secure. This would be easy as they could take turns spending a whole day in there.

I am working full time during the summer and the prospect of catching a 100lb dog and stuffing him in a kennel before work every day is not very attractive. These dogs are not leash broken at all, they were supposed to be raised wild with the sheep. Fortunately they are not aggressive to humans at all and are usually easy to work with.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

The 10 x 20 is what I am thinking. Feed the dogs in there, tell one to sit, and let the other out. Get a couple of nylabones. Even dogs that are not chewers will turn to a chew toy when they get frustrated. I wouldn&#8217;t use a day by day, I&#8217;d use half days. They will get used to 12 hour shifts.

Even LGD&#8217;s need some training. They should know sit. They should know heel. They don&#8217;t have to heel for thirty minutes, just long enough for you to take them from one place to another. Use treats, lots of treats. Work them just five minutes or less at a time. They should be trained to get into and out of the car or truck and settle down. After that, a drive down the drive. After that, a five minute drive. You never know when you might have to take them to a vet, or for some other reason take them for a ride. 

If you can work up to a distance sit, you won&#8217;t need a shock collar. You see one of them interested in a hole under the fence, you whistle (to get his attention, another thing they should know), and call out &#8216;sit&#8217;. This allows you to investigate the hole before the dog escapes. It also is advantageous when you see our dog about to run into the road in front of a semi.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Free dog to a good home???? That is what would happen at my house. We would get a different dog.


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

There are thousands of lgd bred dogs roaming around in the United States today because people give them away when they fail to do what's necessary to finish a job they committed to.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I am not a LGD owner, but...My rottie pup, I can tell you he HATES the one cat that went after him. We have 2 inside cats and he is fine with them. So my suggestion- do you think one of the cows hurt him and now he has found a new "enemy".


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## Rectifier (Jun 12, 2011)

Thanks Maura, I will try this. I tried today but he chewed a hole in the barn and escaped! (OK the tin is missing in that area and the sheathing was weak) Still my rage was a force to contend with when I found a hole in my barn and him outside!

The silver lining is that they didn't leave the farm when he escaped.

Time to put up more electric tomorrow, he will not be escaping! 1' spacing all around the walls of the pen I think, with a low wire on standoffs for digging!

They do know to sit and sit for their meals every day. I am worried about them becoming too much of people dogs, they already like to hang around with us too much in my opinion. I was always told treats and training to heel result in excess love of humans?


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## Rectifier (Jun 12, 2011)

Well... the dog is back on the cable (the other dog, in fact) after spending the entire evening in a fence building and jumping contest. Glad I only drove the nails in enough that it's easy to take it all down again.

Let's just say that Akbash are made up mostly of springs or are in fact capable of generating lift due to their airfoil shape. I felt like I was at a dog show. He readily clears an 8' rail and there is no more height left in the posts. Electric won't bite him when he is off the ground and he knows it - an energized wire along the top is completely ignored while low electric is treated like an angry snake.

I would put up more rails and he would happily trot back into the pen. I would pet him, close the gate, and watch him sail over and look at me with pride. Yep - definitely a teenager.

So as much as they HATE being on the cable, it looks like the only option short of a cage-style kennel. And it looks like this dog will snap the cable soon as instead of chewing he is jerking it... so I may have to go get some actual chain.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I know what I would do instead of the cable (or chain). This is, of course, if your fenced area for those dogs is not too large. (I did an area for my garden/orchard this way and it is about an acre in size.)

I would take a 3' wide fence wire (light weight like welded) and tac it to the existing fencing posts at the top. Attach about a foot to the top of those posts and let the rest of the wire fold over toward the "inside". (In my garden I let it fold over toward the outside as I wanted to deter outsiders from jumping inside.) The flexibility of such a wire at the top just might give those Akbash something to consider....


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

I was about to suggest what motdaugrnds said. You need it to taper in because it foils their trajectory. They hit that lip before they reach the high point of their arc. And it makes climbing over a bit more difficult. 

But good god. 8'? That is a hell of a dog.


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## Rectifier (Jun 12, 2011)

Yup, these guys really are amazing dogs which keeps me going trying to make them work for me. They are fast, powerful and just go like a bat out of hell after coyotes. I love watching them take off after hearing something that needs chasing.

For all the trouble they have caused and all the dog food they eat, I've not lost a single lamb nor seen a glimpse of a coyote for miles since I acquired them. They are taking to being chained fairly well now, so hopefully we are going to work through this setback.


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