# Brand new garden - need your thoughts



## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Hey y'all! Long time no see! DH and I were gone for about 4 years - our personal SHTF happened and we lived in an RV for four years and couldn't do much homesteading....but we're back  We just bought a new homestead on the KS/MO border, moved in about 6 weeks ago. Zone 6.

I decided to place my garden in the 65 X 24 ft fenced-in area on the East side of an old barn, which was used as a small horse paddock for many years - apparently until last summer. I chose that area because it's got a great fence and will be fertile and there's nothing growing in it. Oddly, the top soil seems to only be about 2-3 inches thick in most places - underneath that it's very hard, seems to be impermeable to water. I don't know what it is - it's not sticky like clay as far as I can see. I haven't really dug into it yet. The South 1/5 of the garden has been under water for the past few weeks and the rest is soggy wet (like the entire 20 acres).

Several stalls in the old barn have a lot of very old composted horse manure in them - completely broken down and nice & dry, it's probably been in there for 20-30 years. A couple of stalls were recently used for turkeys and chickens so there's lots of poultry poo available to use next year.

To get the garden ready for planting, I filled the South end with enough composted manure to soak up all of the water. Then I covered the whole garden with about 10 inches of spoiled hay (Ruth Stout method). No till. I've already put some potatoes in, on the North end. The soil's not deep enough to cover a potato but they're under 10 inches of mulch. I want to grow enough to make up quite a bit of our diet now that the world's gone crazy. 

What else should I plant, and where, to feed us and improve the soil? Once the spring rains go away I should have a moist area in full sun, with about 6 inches of very fertile soil and compost. There will be a 65-ft-long area of shallow soil shaded by the barn for about half the day, and a strip of shallow soil in full sun - all under 10 inches of mulch of course.

Thanks in advance for any input!


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

Sounds like you may have loess type of soil. I do (in western Mississippi).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loess

The experts say that it is porous, but I find that it packs down extremely hard a few inches below the surface over the years. We call it "hardpan".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardpan

Even plant roots have trouble getting down deep through the stuff.

I know of no solution other than deep plowing or deep tilling to break it up. 

In my raised beds, I just add a few inches of compost and topsoil from Home depot every spring.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Just a word of advice about the potatoes, as the mulch breaks down you have to add more to keep the sun off them and turning them green. A few layers of newspapers then more mulch works very well.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

You may experience two problems:
1) Nearly everything needs at least 6 hours a day of sunshine. Growing in the shady spot may be a disappointment.
2) The hardpan beneath the potatoes will cut your yield without root growth.

Go for _staples_. Dry bush beans, squash, green beans, cabbage, cauliflower, broccoli, pickling cucumbers, tomatoes for juice(Rutgers or similar,) tomatoes for sauce (Amish paste or similar), sweet potatoes, storage onions. These can self-store, or are fairly quick and easy to can or freeze.

Buy a B & D battery weed trimmer. Don't be surprised if you get a lot of weeds generated in the manure and hay mulch--even though years old, the weed and grass seeds may still be there and will germinate with moisture. Battery operated is lightweight, but long lasting.

Beans will need closer soil contact than composted manure to keep them from falling over.(and drying out), Rake off the mulch and then rototill for a good seedbed. Then return the mulch as they grow.

Good to see you back. Best of luck.

geo


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

@NRA_guy, thank you - that sounds like exactly what we have and I'm happy to see that earthworms can actually help break it down. Tough little guys!

@Danaus29 - I'll do that for sure - thank you! I hope I get a decent yield. 

Geo - I think shade may turn out to be an issue. I know lettuce likes some shade, and I think the brassicas can tolerate a fair amount. I've never tried it.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Butternut squash. Good yield. Stores well. 

The Echo battery weedeater (and other devices) beats B and D hands down. I have had both.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Cucumbers and hot peppers yield fairly well with half a day of sun. I've grown them under a huge tree with only a few hours morning sun for several years. Tomatoes and squash don't like shade. If you can, set up some sort of arch or trellis for the butternut squash, if you grow any. The vines will climb and the trellis will keep the fruit off the ground.

Brambles like blackberry or raspberry will grow and produce just fine with half day sun. The birds are more of a problem than shade. In some areas the birds will get the berries before they are ripe. Bird netting over the plants helps reduce bird destruction.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

Since you are thinking long term food supply garden, you might consider planting some perennial vegetables/fruits. I just started to learn about more varieties late last year and I am beginning to incorporate them this year.

There is the obvious asparagus and rhubarb. Horseradish, Egyptian onions, strawberries, herbs like lemon balm, oregano, thyme.
Others (new to me this year) are Turkish rocket, Stinging Nettle and Hablitzia.

I use Edgewood Nursery for seed and guidance. https://edgewood-nursery.com


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> There is the obvious asparagus and rhubarb. Horseradish, Egyptian onions, strawberries, herbs like lemon balm, oregano, thyme.
> Others (new to me this year) are Turkish rocket, Stinging Nettle and Hablitzia.
> 
> I use Edgewood Nursery for seed and guidance. https://edgewood-nursery.com


Turkish rocket and hablitzia both looksintriguing - I'm looking forward to hearing how they grow, how you like them, how much food you get from them etc. I'd definitely be interested in growing more perennial edibles. I did have quite a bit of stinging nettle growing at our last place. It was growing in the gray water drainage area - seemed to appreciate lots of water. I cooked it up a few times and made a tea out of it for urinary tract infection. It worked. I also did walking onions before - they were neat, but I don't remember ever eating them. I'll have to look around for a place dry enough for oregano and thyme here. I have a place where lavendar is growing - I think they all like the same conditions.


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## Northof49 (Mar 3, 2018)

Create an environment that worms enjoy. If your soil is often wet keep building up your garden with wood chips to build it up so worms can get out of the water. If you have very few worms consider adding some from a local source. Most plants that produce green edibles preform ok in partial shade. beans, lettuces, cabbages, collards, swiss chard etc. Keep the sunny spots for things that flower then fruit.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Northof49 said:


> Create an environment that worms enjoy. If your soil is often wet keep building up your garden with wood chips to build it up so worms can get out of the water. If you have very few worms consider adding some from a local source. Most plants that produce green edibles preform ok in partial shade. beans, lettuces, cabbages, collards, swiss chard etc. Keep the sunny spots for things that flower then fruit.


I haven't seen a single worm. I imagine they drown. I'm considering just making my entire garden one huge raised bed by putting boards around it. I'm sure all the hay every year will make it deeper over time - plus all the compost. Hopefully I've created an environment where they can survive - we'll see.

It's good to hear beans will grow in some shade - I didn't realize that. The rest, I knew could tolerate some shade. I wonder if I'll be able to have lettuce year round if I use the shade for it.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Is the constant wetness from a leak, a septic system, or just a low spot? It would be best if you can get drained.

geo


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

geo in mi said:


> Is the constant wetness from a leak, a septic system, or just a low spot? It would be best if you can get drained.
> 
> geo


I'm not sure if it's going to be constant once all the rain is gone - it's a low spot in the garden. The whole yard and garden and all the fields are wet - the ground here is saturated. So I'm not sure, once things dry up, how it will be. As I'm driving around I see everybody's ponds are flooded too. By filling the low spot with the very absorbent compost and covering it with hay I'm hoping I'll be able to raise onion bulbs up high enough that the roots will get enough moisture throughout the year and not drown....and keep some of the moisture there when things dry up.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Horses compact any soil. You need to break up the hard pan, otherwise it is like trying to plant in a couple of inches of soil on concrete.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Have tried busting through the hardpan? An iron bar might work. That might give you some valuable information on what to do. If it's only an inch or so a good solid potato fork could be used to break it up.

I would add beets to the list. They are very healthy for you and taste good too.

For years I kept my garden covered with at least 6" of rotting hay and whatever manure I could scrounge. They were the lushest gardens I've ever grown. I used wide rows with 3 rows within. Even my short legs were enough to straddle all 3 rows. It also increased the actual growing area and it was easier on my back. I had very little weed problem partially because my plants shaded the soil better than a 1 row or 2 row spacing.

About the biggest surprise was that the mulch kept the soil cool late into spring. I solved it by raking back the rows to expose the soil to the sun but you won't have that problem.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

fishhead said:


> Have tried busting through the hardpan? An iron bar might work. That might give you some valuable information on what to do. If it's only an inch or so a good solid potato fork could be used to break it up.
> 
> I would add beets to the list. They are very healthy for you and taste good too.
> 
> ...


I haven't really busted through it enough to know how thick it is - I was surprised when I was able to get a couple of garden stakes to go pretty deep in places. I'm hopeful that it might not really be that deep.

I was thinking about beets but what happens when they get too big? I suppose they'd just push upwards and I could cover them with hay.

It's very good to hear how well the method worked for you - why did you stop doing it? If the hay cooled our soil a little it might keep the brassicas from bolting so soon.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I am thinking that the horses that they put on it might have compacted it, since the soil in that area is high in clay. 

Personally I would try to break it up before you plant. Yes, earthworms will EVENTUALLY break it up but you wish to garden right now. So, I would want the veggies to have deep roots well before the summer heat hits. Otherwise the top couple of inches of soil will dry out and the vegetables will get parched.

Welcome to Kansas, by the way!


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Terri said:


> I am thinking that the horses that they put on it might have compacted it, since the soil in that area is high in clay.
> 
> Personally I would try to break it up before you plant. Yes, earthworms will EVENTUALLY break it up but you wish to garden right now. So, I would want the veggies to have deep roots well before the summer heat hits. Otherwise the top couple of inches of soil will dry out and the vegetables will get parched.
> 
> Welcome to Kansas, by the way!


Thanks for the welcome! I was actually born and raised in KS but moved to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan when I was 23, and lived there for 23 years. Completely different set of growing conditions. 

I think you're right about the horses compacting it. It's odd soil though - it's not clay and it's under the stalls too. I've been digging compost out of one of the stalls and at first I thought there was concrete under the compost - it's hard and sounds like rock or concrete when the shovel hits it but it crumbles with a little elbow grease.

It's too late - I already planted! Just half of the garden though - all the spring stuff that can tolerate a freeze is in. I'll see if I can at least dig deep holes for the transplants - hopefully the holes will go through the hardpan, I don't know.....


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

At least try punching a fence post through the crust in several places before planting your other crops. Punching holes in that layer will help break it up.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Danaus29 said:


> At least try punching a fence post through the crust in several places before planting your other crops. Punching holes in that layer will help break it up.


I watched a video (I'm a geek and spend my time watching youtube gardners) where a woman said to just take a garden fork and poke holes all over the garden, then put compost all over the top and water it in, then cover it with mulch. She said that would get the worms down in there much faster and break it up. I might try that.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

It is under the stalls as well?

Tell me, have you ever seen decomposed granite used under a stall? Basically, it is finely crumbled rock, You get it damp and tamp it down, and it keeps the ground that a horse stands on mud-free.

And, welcome BACK to Kansas, LOL!


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Terri said:


> It is under the stalls as well?
> 
> Tell me, have you ever seen decomposed granite used under a stall? Basically, it is finely crumbled rock, You get it damp and tamp it down, and it keeps the ground that a horse stands on mud-free.
> 
> And, welcome BACK to Kansas, LOL!


Is that the same thing as stone dust? I've noticed a few places here where it looks like something that might be stone dust was laid down - inside of the round pen, and in the high traffic areas in front of the newer barn.

I can't imagine going to the expensive of putting something like that down in a paddock? Would that make any sense?

Thanks for the welcome back! I would be just fine never leaving Kansas again. There's no place like home!!


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

I would at least dig down and break through for the deeper rooted plants like tomatoes. Maybe use a post hole digger and clean out that hard stuff, then put compost in the holes.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

whiterock said:


> I would at least dig down and break through for the deeper rooted plants like tomatoes. Maybe use a post hole digger and clean out that hard stuff, then put compost in the holes.


Good idea


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

fffarmergirl said:


> I haven't really busted through it enough to know how thick it is - I was surprised when I was able to get a couple of garden stakes to go pretty deep in places. I'm hopeful that it might not really be that deep.
> 
> I was thinking about beets but what happens when they get too big? I suppose they'd just push upwards and I could cover them with hay.
> 
> It's very good to hear how well the method worked for you - why did you stop doing it? If the hay cooled our soil a little it might keep the brassicas from bolting so soon.


I started a fish farm so I was working two full time jobs about 7 months out of the year. Everything took a back seat to the farm and work.

I've only grown beets once and that was in loose sandy loam. If you keep them covered in hay that should work. Or maybe take a fork and punch holes through the hard pan.

Good luck!


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## Tanglewood homesteaders (Mar 4, 2020)

Wow so many great ideas. Might just add top soil and compost thick layers and mulch heavy good luck welcome to Mo Kansas


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

Have you done soil tests? That would tell you what you need to add or modify.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Hello, this thread reminded me of a video I saw of how an organic gardener broke up his hardpan. He covered it with woodchips and the area eventually turned into soft/great gardening soil. Places where he did not place woodchips stayed hard. (Strange because the same man created a parking area out of a swampy area the same way. So not real sure what occurred...)

My barn has great compost every year. Sure glad the back of this barn is inside the garden area.  Inside this barn and on the original soil I placed a rather thick layer of "hydrated lime"; and covered it with a very thick layer of straw; now...even years later...when cleaning the barn I run into this "white" colored stuff.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

A layer of wood chips would keep the soil underneath moist and aid the decomposition of any organic matter.

My plan for the next garden is to put a thick (1' - 2') layer of wood chips or old hay over the area and then raise a flock of chickens on it. They'll spend the summer stirring and fertilizing the organic matter so by the next season it should be good to go. To plant I'll just pull back whatever is left and plant at the soil/organic matter interface.

One year I did that without the wood chips or hay with a flock of 50 meat chickens on a 25' x 25' area. The next year there was virtually no weeds all season. The garden was lush and green but it had too much nitrogen. The carrot tops were up to my waist but the root was no larger than my pinkie. A layer of wood chips or hay in the beginning would have used up a lot of the nitrogen.


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