# Goat disease testing...to drink raw milk



## bee (May 12, 2002)

Whole great big can of worms.

Here I am looking for a blood TB test which doesn't exist and the vet who drew the blood knew I wanted tested for TB and come to find out it is a skin test that takes 2 vet visits and the person who told me was the micro-biologist at WSU that a very nice lady at BioTracking gave me the number for..whew! Long and short is that Brucellosis and TB are considered eradicated in my state and of no concern to the Dr. Microbiologist that I talked too..but then he does not believe in drinking raw milk either..Q fever,samonella and campylobacter(sp) were mentioned as 3 of "dozens" of reasons why.

What I may do is send the blood off to BioTracking(after I retrieve it from the vet on tuesday) to be tested for CAE and one pregancy test; they will send it on to WSU for a 10 dollar fee and they will test for CL @9.45 ea. I was going to have them do Brucellosis but may switch to Q-fever instead.

Question on testing for CAE. The doe passes it to her kid thru the milk; is there any need to test the bucks and wethers for it? How would they transmit it to other goats? Any goat infected with CL can infect other goats thru abcess matter so all will be tested.

Those of you who drink raw milk...what am I missing?(besides my mind???)


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## Ford Zoo (Jan 27, 2012)

My personal thought is that if you know your goats and feel they are healthy, by all means drink it raw. I think there are so many "possibilities" that many people err on the side of caution. I grew up drinking raw cows milk, and I do drink my goats milk raw. I've been a nurse for years and have only seen one case of an older gentleman that had been diagnosed with something (I think it started with a "B"), they concluded he had aquired it back in childhood from drinking raw cows milk.

I find it funny that many people that won't drink it raw will eat processed food full of chemicals.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Well- most chemicals in processed foods may kill you after decades but something in raw milk may kill you tomorrow. I might drink raw milk from my own goats, if the cleanliness is in my control but would never buy someone else's raw milk.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Brucellosis. Known in humans as Undulant Fever. My veterinarian caught it from cattle.


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

ooookkkkkk...NOT selling raw milk. Alice from your post do I put you down as "undecided'....LOL!!


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

The scary one to me is Johnes disease. Surfaces as chrones disease in humans. It's even isolatable in 3% of pasteurized raw milk from store shelves. The head honcho of johnes (at Winconsin U) and the head honcho of chrones (dr somewhere from FL) diseases are collaborating to try and get Johnes called zoonotic and have ample evidence... main restriction thus far has been the fact that if it's called zoonotic, it's going to cost the livestock industry tons of money to eliminate it. 

Johnes is fecal-oral mainly, but can be spread from milk/colostrum. Pasteurizing properly can reduce the risk of transmission. 

Most cases of chrones disease can be linked to the drinking of unpasteurized goat and cow milk. Most times chrones takes YEARS/DECADES to crop up. 

I'm not against drinking raw, but I AM against drinking raw milk from untested animals. 

I think MOST people don't test for it because it's not seen as problem. IMO, it's one of the biggest problems in the dairy industry today, but is ignored because it's easier that way. The tests are accurate (Blood elisa less so, fecal culture very accurate) but like most tests, require sucessive tests to be considered truely negative. It's also a trickier than average test - dependant upon wether or not the animal is shedding it at the time you sample, and how long since exposure. Johnes has an incubation time of up to 2 years. Most animals aquire the disease at birth or while raised with the parent stock, thus most suggest that testing before age 2 isn't accurate. I ELISA test everything starting at 6 mon. 

People have this idea that ONE disease test result is accurate. None are in a single test, and must be repeated regularly to give a true idea of your situation. 


Here, I test for CL, CAE, and Johnes. Brucella free state. I've never tested for TB or Scrapies.


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## Ford Zoo (Jan 27, 2012)

"Most cases of chrones disease can be linked to the drinking of unpasteurized goat and cow milk."

I beg to differ, Chrones is an auotimmune disorder with genetic tendancies. I have cared for many Chrones patients over the years that have never had raw milk, and I live in the dairy state.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

where I want to said:


> Well- most chemicals in processed foods may kill you after decades but something in raw milk may kill you tomorrow. I might drink raw milk from my own goats, if the cleanliness is in my control but would never buy someone else's raw milk.


I'm wondering on what you are basing your position that chemical food is safer than raw food.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

bee said:


> Question on testing for CAE. The doe passes it to her kid thru the milk; is there any need to test the bucks and wethers for it? How would they transmit it to other goats? Any goat infected with CL can infect other goats thru abcess matter so all will be tested.
> 
> Those of you who drink raw milk...what am I missing?(besides my mind???)


I personally don't care if a buck has CAE, if I want the genetics, I'd use him anyway. Sure, I'd prefer he didn't, but thats just a preference, not a deciding factor.
Ways a buck "could" pass CAE to another goat: 
Bashing heads with another buck, skin breaks, blood mingles.
You use the needle on him, then use it on another goat.

Really, if you use a little care, its highly unlikely. I've had at least one CAE positive buck at all times, all the years I've had goats. Never did he infect anyone else in breeding, living, fighting, etc.
Nope, not to worried about it. It is a judgement call for you to make. Don't let pressure sway you one way or the other.

My opinion on raw milk? If your goat looks healthy, acts healthy, I'd drink it. Drank it from my animals and many, many other peoples animals since I was 3 years old. Have never once gotten sick.
If testing for certain things makes you feel safer about it, then by all means do. But as a rule most of us ingest things almost every day that are much more dangerous than healthy raw milk.
Truly, growing up I had no idea that ANYONE thought raw milk was dangerous. Its as natural to me as eating an apple.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

where I want to said:


> Well- most chemicals in processed foods *may kill you after decades *but something in raw milk may kill you tomorrow. I might drink raw milk from my own goats, if the cleanliness is in my control but would never buy someone else's raw milk.




Tell that to the scores of sick children in this country plagued with adult diseases.


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## ani's ark (May 12, 2012)

It's always a heated discussion topic it seems - raw milk! I live in New Zealand, our economy is based on dairy production and wool. Most farm kids here grow up drinking raw milk from a house cow, even on dairy farms where the sold milk is pasteurised. But in a farm milking 300+ cows per day mastitis or disease may not be quickly picked up and pasteurising makes milk safe for the general public. Interestingly the NZ law allows farmers to sell customers up to 5Litres per day of raw milk at the farm gate here. I doubt it'd be allowed if it was really so dangerous? I drink raw goat milk myself, at my own risk. And if I ever get sick I'd be sure to mention it to my doctor. I know my doe is healthy and my milk is hygenically handled, so I'm happy to risk it for the lovely taste and extra nutrients. If I wanted pasteurised milk I'd save the farming hassle and buy it from the shop. I feel blessed to live in a small country where milk is a big industry because the monitoring of herd testing and animal care is usually to high standards. Thats my two cents, I'm not out to offend anyone.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

ani's ark said:


> It's always a heated discussion topic it seems - raw milk! I live in New Zealand, our economy is based on dairy production and wool. Most farm kids here grow up drinking raw milk from a house cow, even on dairy farms where the sold milk is pasteurised. But in a farm milking 300+ cows per day mastitis or disease may not be quickly picked up and pasteurising makes milk safe for the general public. Interestingly the NZ law allows farmers to sell customers up to 5Litres per day of raw milk at the farm gate here. I doubt it'd be allowed if it was really so dangerous? I drink raw goat milk myself, at my own risk. And if I ever get sick I'd be sure to mention it to my doctor. I know my doe is healthy and my milk is hygenically handled, so I'm happy to risk it for the lovely taste and extra nutrients. If I wanted pasteurised milk I'd save the farming hassle and buy it from the shop. I feel blessed to live in a small country where milk is a big industry because the monitoring of herd testing and animal care is usually to high standards. Thats my two cents, I'm not out to offend anyone.


The difference between the two countries is that too many people here have bought into the fallacy that we can be 100% protected from any and all disease and discomfort. They don't realize that 1.) our immune systems, like our muscles, need challenge to be strong, and 2.) there is no such thing as "safety" from life. 

Life is dangerous. Period.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Ford Zoo said:


> I beg to differ, Chrones is an auotimmune disorder with genetic tendancies. I have cared for many Chrones patients over the years that have never had raw milk, and I live in the dairy state.


Oh, I'm sure there are chrones patients that have never drank raw milk. As I said, MAP is isolatable in 3% of pasteurized milk.  that's quite a bit - 3 out of 100 gallons of milk of your shelf at your local wal-mart. Also, most johnes positive cows go for slaughter - not after a postiive test, but after the disease takes it's toll and their production drops and they cannot keep weight on, and it could easily transmit that way as well.

I'm with the DNA PCR that shows chrones patients have the MAP DNA in them. As I said, the head doctor who specializes in CHRONES DISEASE in humans is working with the leading JOHNES researcher to get it called zoonotic. That is VERY convincing IMO.


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## Ford Zoo (Jan 27, 2012)

Pony said:


> The difference between the two countries is that too many people here have bought into the fallacy that we can be 100% protected from any and all disease and discomfort. They don't realize that 1.)* our immune systems, like our muscles, need challenge to be strong*, and 2.) there is no such thing as "safety" from life.
> 
> Life is dangerous. Period.


I've seen many articles noting the fact that America has a higher rate of autoimmune disorders than any other country partially due to the fact that as a whole the population uses too many antibacterial products and pasteurizes many foods (even store bought eggs are irradiated now). As Pony said, our immune system needs to be challenged so it can do it's job. Take that away, and it starts turning on itself.


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## Eunice (Feb 9, 2005)

Can we spell Crohn's correctly? My daughter has it.


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## Ford Zoo (Jan 27, 2012)

I'm with the DNA PCR that shows chrones patients have the MAP DNA in them. As I said said:


> Not trying to argue here, you seem to have some scientific background, and I have been a nurse for many years. I did research this before I made my post to back up my knowledge and did not find reference to your information. If they are indeed finding a cause other than Autoimmune for Chron's, then perhaps they can find a prevention and/or cure for it too.
> 
> But personally, I find the benefits of raw milk outweigh the risks.


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## Ford Zoo (Jan 27, 2012)

And sorry, I mispelled it again! My fingers walk faster than my brain some days.


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## Ford Zoo (Jan 27, 2012)

And Donna, just out of curiosity, since I live in your neighboring state-Why don't you test for TB? According to the Wisconsin Ag website, MI has problems with TB. I only ask, not to be judgemental, but to learn as I am not familiar with the disease in livestock. I know that it is carried by at least the wild deer population. Perhaps you operate a closed herd and therefore don't worry about obtaining (+) animals?


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## Creamers (Aug 3, 2010)

> Well- most chemicals in processed foods may kill you after decades but something in raw milk may kill you tomorrow.


Spinach bought today might kill you tomorrow, too . . let us be fair.

Raw milk here - I think it is safer than ANYTHING coming from the store, and data - the CDC - backs it up, much to their chagrin.


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

So, since it's (MAP) present in pasteurized milk, and still causes problems (Crohn's), you're saying it is just as safe to drink raw milk?

And, like some past studies, they may find in the end that the gene they find _is_ identical to the MAP DNA, but is incidental to the Crohn's and it has nothing to do with the existence of Crohn's.

Bee, good luck on getting your testing, I understand how frustrating it can be to find out what you thought you were getting isn't what you got at all. If I were you, I'd get all the testing I could afford of things that are of concern to you and your area. 

I do not recommend to anyone how to drink their milk, eat their food or raise their kids. The most likely thing to kill me is going to be my blood pressure...


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## ani's ark (May 12, 2012)

Is Johnnes disease species specific?
I found out last week that around the time I took my doe back to her home farm to run with the buck, they got in 3 new jersey nurse cows. One cow has since been diagnosed with Johnnes and although the goats and cows dont graze together, they rotate pasture. Could it be caught by my doe if they grazed nearby? She looks healthy and happy, no signs of illness and this was about a month ago. The farmer told me, she is so angry and upset that they bought a diseased animal onto their farm unknowingly, it was supposed to be a tested herd.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

ani's ark said:


> Is Johnnes disease species specific?
> I found out last week that around the time I took my doe back to her home farm to run with the buck, they got in 3 new jersey nurse cows. One cow has since been diagnosed with Johnnes and although the goats and cows dont graze together, they rotate pasture. Could it be caught by my doe if they grazed nearby? She looks healthy and happy, no signs of illness and this was about a month ago. The farmer told me, she is so angry and upset that they bought a diseased animal onto their farm unknowingly, it was supposed to be a tested herd.


Goats can contract Johnes. It's very sad to see.

Johnes is passed through fecal matter. If you've seen cows, you can understand how readily it can spread through a herd.

It takes some time for the disease to incubate. If your doe didn't come in contact with the cow's feces, you should be all right. 

Here's a great site for info on Johnes: 

JOHNE'S INFORMATION CENTER


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## ani's ark (May 12, 2012)

Well, she's still in fine form so far. It is unlikely they crossed paths as it was the week I took her there that they brought the new stock in and put them on their near paddock, when the goats were up in the back block. I will not take her back or walk in their paddocks when I visit just in case - they are lovely people and run a tight ship generally, but it's a risk I dont want to take. They havent had any further cases, so hopefully they caught it quickly and took all the right precautions. I'll read up on that page Pony recommended. What an interesting thread this has been.


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