# Reversal of roles... Not getting it..



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I stumbled on this article some how.. about uppity corperate women becoming big game hunters.

http://tmagazine.blogs.nytimes.com/...l-women-who-hunt-shoot-and-gut-their-dinners/

Something I've been noticing over the last decade or so.... Women seem to be out to try and prove something.. and men being less and less manly... 

I was just downstairs at the food court in the building for lunch, and I was noticing how most the guys all seem to be "pretty" "Metro" guys.. sporting all of their latest fashions of the fall line.. 

I've known quite a few girls that go out and get a motorcycle MUCH bigger than they are, as a first bike, and decide they need to be biker chicks... I've seen men do the same, but funny, they seem to buy their first bike smaller than what the women pick.. 

Just wondering what has changed in society that is creating these kinds of role reversals.. .


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

In my opinion... It's not that we are out to prove something, but rather we do what we need to do to survive. Learned early on in life if you want something done... Nobody will really care but yourself. Nobody will really care about yourself and well being so you have to be strong.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

To prove something? No not that at all.

My sister has climbed the ladder almost as high as it gets in a very large corporation. She started out as a typist. The most important thing she will tell you about climbing the ladder is playing the same game as the boys. That means playing golf or hunting or what ever that corporate culture requires. In her business the deals get made on the golf course so she learnt to play and play well and she broke the glass ceiling with her golf club.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I get that, but these women will probably never be in the position they will need to go hunt big game to survive... They don't need to ride motorcycles twice the size as to what is safe for them... 

Kinda like the new gold show on TV.. these family of city women are working their fathers old claims... Which is cool and good... but it's not like they are serious about it.. it seems to be more they are worried about how good they look than how much gold they get... They won't listen to the people they hire to help them find gold, but rather think they know better... like they are trying to prove they are smarter as newbies than the old timers.. 

But this isn't just about the women.. I'm not getting this whole "Metro" thing... and men buying more expensive fashions than the women.. all the manicures and pedicures and such...


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

This just goes to show that most men have no idea what women over the millennium have had to do to survive and ensure the survival of their children. Men have always gone away to hunt or fight in wars leaving the women behind to do everything - including defend the home. I wonder why men continue to think that women cannot and will not do whatever is necessary - everything from farming to running a business etc etc. We always have and we always will. 

As for buying bikes and boats and guns and whatever is supposed to be masculine. Consider that women now have the incomes to do as they please and they do. Does this actually make them more masculine? Nope. It makes them independent. We get to do things that were once denied to us because of finances and social customs imposed by the male dominated society.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

painterswife said:


> To prove something? No not that at all.
> 
> My sister has climbed the ladder almost as high as it gets in a very large corporation. She started out as a typist. The most important thing she will tell you about climbing the ladder is playing the same game as the boys. That means playing golf or hunting or what ever that corporate culture requires. In her business the deals get made on the golf course so she learnt to play and play well and she broke the glass ceiling with her golf club.


Ah.. I didn't think of that angle... so I guess now the men are looking so much more girly to keep from intimidating the women?


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

emdeengee said:


> This just goes to show that most men have no idea what women over the millennium have had to do to survive and ensure the survival of their children. Men have always gone away to hunt or fight in wars leaving the women behind to do everything - including defend the home. I wonder why men continue to think that women cannot and will not do whatever is necessary - everything from farming to running a business etc etc. We always have and we always will.
> 
> As for buying bikes and boats and guns and whatever is supposed to be masculine. Consider that women now have the incomes to do as they please and they do. Does this actually make them more masculine? Nope. It makes them independent. We get to do things that were once denied to us because of finances and social customs imposed by the male dominated society.


OK.. I can understand that... but why wait until mid life to start deciding it's time to learn to hunt, or become a biker chick? 

I've known girls that did those things from a young age, and they have totally different attitudes than the women who decide later in life to take those things up... They don't make a big deal out of it like the women just taking up the sport.. .

The same with guys too... I've ridden motorcycles since I was a kid, and have ridden with many men who did the same... but when you meet a guy who decides to buy a motorcycle at 40.. he's a totally different kind of person, and seems to think he's now some kinda special tough guy that is trying to prove something..


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

simi-steading said:


> Ah.. I didn't think of that angle... so I guess now the men are looking so much more girly to keep from intimidating the women?


Maybe if you did not feel the need to use labels such as girly and understand that we are all individuals ( male and female) and we can choose how we want to live our lives, you might understand. Right now you sound quite bigoted on how men and women should present themselves and behave.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Folks with disposable income sometimes spend money on stuff that they want.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Sorry if you are thinking that's the way I am thinking... It's not... 

I have no issues at all with people who are who they are.. What I'm trying to understand is people who take on a completely different persona later in life... who change completely.. 

I'm only using those terms to more describe the way they are changing... I've known guys who were pretty much jeans and flannels, then suddenly end up getting caught up in the latest fashions... usually starting with eye wear once they start needing glasses.. 

Maybe what I'm seeing and trying to describe is actually mid life crisis?


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

simi-steading said:


> OK.. I can understand that... but why wait until mid life to start deciding it's time to learn to hunt, or become a biker chick?
> 
> I've known girls that did those things from a young age, and they have totally different attitudes than the women who decide later in life to take those things up... They don't make a big deal out of it like the women just taking up the sport.. .
> 
> The same with guys too... I've ridden motorcycles since I was a kid, and have ridden with many men who did the same... but when you meet a guy who decides to buy a motorcycle at 40.. he's a totally different kind of person, and seems to think he's now some kinda special tough guy that is trying to prove something..


Why not? More time, more money, more enthusiasm for something new. I always enjoy when my friends - male or female - take up something new whether it is a career, education, sports or a hobby like riding a motorcycle. 

I love to hear them talk and brag about their lives. It does not offend me at all and I would never sneer at their image of themselves. 

My 62 year old neighbour just won a competition for a spot for the Berlin Marathon. She has only been running for 2 years and she talks non-stop about training and diet etc. I love it. My husband's assistant just discovered that she loves hunting dogs. In 4 years she has acquired two dogs and has become a master trainer (was certified in Hungary this summer) while continuing her very demanding job. And she can outshoot any man while wearing a pink custom made hunting vest.


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

That is probably why I have never fit in anywhere ... I have had no desire to climb the corporate ladder and walk over the bloody bodies of those I stepped on as I climbed ..... I'm not girly ...I don't do metro things and I don't ride motorcycles and wear biker jackets to give people an impression of something I am not. I don't even have any prison tats like everyone so proudly displays nor do I have extra holes anywhere in my male body for bling and bangles ...... Heck .... my phone won't make coffee, watch TV, pay bills or play on the internet. I got something that is an anomoly .... It's a phone that just makes phone calls !!! Imagine that ....

Common folks like me probably just need to stay hiding under their rock and remain invisible as the world seems to be changing faster than I care to change ...... I'm happy to remain where I am in life I guess .....

Ohio Rusty ><>


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I've known a lot of women who can shoot a lot better than most guys... I've known women who shot all their life, and it was no big deal to them.. but then I've met women that picked up a gun later in life, and they just aren't the same as women who hunt and shoot all their life.. 

I know I'm not going to be able to put into words what I'm trying to understand.. so maybe this was a bad discussion to start, because I know I'll only be attacked rather than being able to understand a human phenomenon..


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

simi-steading said:


> Sorry if you are thinking that's the way I am thinking... It's not...
> 
> I have no issues at all with people who are who they are.. What I'm trying to understand is people who take on a completely different persona later in life... who change completely..
> 
> ...


People change all the time. At 35 you are not the same person you were when you were 25. Same for 45 and 55 and 65. People love to experience new things and any experience changes you. Both men and women go through big changes as they reach middle age but that is normal. You come to realize that life is half gone so you might as well do what you want to do while you can. Doing the same thing at 55 as you did when you were 45 is just plain boring not to mention stifling. When you are young you have a lot to establish - career, family etc. Once you get over this part then you can really expand your life. Not to do so would be a shame. 


When we first moved to the wilderness everyone wore flannel and jeans and cowboy hats and boots in summer. Now everyone wears really expensive top of the line outdoor gear. It is way more expensive but actually much more suited to the climate and outdoor activities. And people do like nice things.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

simi-steading said:


> Sorry if you are thinking that's the way I am thinking... It's not...
> 
> I have no issues at all with people who are who they are.. What I'm trying to understand is people who take on a completely different persona later in life... who change completely..
> 
> ...


Have you ever picked up a new hobby or a new interest? Have you changed your hairstyle or decided that you like something different that you always ate? I get excited when I learn something new. In fact isn't that what this whole website is dedicated to? Learning new things, embracing new lifestyles and ways to do things.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

Well they are now in the role of men in the work place and that brings them into direct competition. They are trying to prove that they are as tough and rough, even if they don't consciously understand why they are doing it.

Likewise men have been told for the last 35 years that they are abusive, unnecessary, bunglers, who are responsible for all the ills of society. The image being pushed is for the sensitive man who is "man enough" to take an effeminate role. Its opposite world.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

emdeengee said:


> When we first moved to the wilderness everyone wore flannel and jeans and cowboy hats and boots in summer. Now everyone wears really expensive top of the line outdoor gear


Ah... now you're getting towards something I can add so maybe some can relate to what I'm trying to get at... 

I grew up hunting... We wore jeans and what ever else to go hunting... just like you did every day... 

I still see real country people doing that.. yeah.. maybe a little more camo than it used to be years ago, but the people who live and hunt daily don't go as far out.. 

Now take the city hunter... Like watch all the shows for hunting on TV.. 

You have to get your $75 shooting stick... You need to get your $500 shooting blind.. .you have to have the most ultra modern gun... the ammo has to be high tech.... Your camo needs to look like your Sunday best... more like.. hhmm.. like they are still trying to keep up with the Jones'... Each trying to prove how great a hunter they are, by all the best gear money can buy... 

I guess maybe I've just lived in the city too long now, and I'm not getting all the changes I'm seeing.. .people aren't the same... When I lived in the country, not much changed, and you got people... now, not so much...


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Twobottom said:


> Well they are now in the role of men in the work place and that brings them into direct competition. They are trying to prove that they are as tough and rough, even if they don't consciously understand why they are doing it.
> 
> Likewise men have been told for the last 35 years that they are abusive, unnecessary, bunglers, who are responsible for all the ills of society. The image being pushed is for the sensitive man who is "man enough" to take an effeminate role. Its opposite world.


Thank you... I think you've hit the nail on the head with such a simple answer... Exactly what I was looking for to try and understand these changes.. The pressure of society and the changes of morals..


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

We have been gifted with lives that generally include more than one day. If what you are doing today does not feel quite right anymore it would behove you to change and do something else. To continue to do something that does not work for you is insanity. Just sayin


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

painterswife said:


> Have you ever picked up a new hobby or a new interest? Have you changed your hairstyle or decided that you like something different that you always ate? I get excited when I learn something new. In fact isn't that what this whole website is dedicated to? Learning new things, embracing new lifestyles and ways to do things.


Of course I have... sort of.. .

I still have the same haircut I had in school.. (btw, I'm 49) I still weigh almost the same, so I still wear clothes I had in school at times.. not much.. but a couple pieces.. I still wear the same Clarke shoes... I still have the same mustache I've never shaved off in all my life... not once have I shaved above my lip.. 

I've bought new motorcycles after getting out of riding for some years... I got back into the audio habit after selling all of my gear right after school... so.. yeah.. I got into new stuff.. but not really new hobbies.. 

Actually, now that I think about it, the only real new hobby I ever picked up was computers, which turned into a job in the corporate world, which I said I would never join (but a back injury forced that) and I did take up stunt kite flying after my brother built me a fancy huge kite... 

Huh.. I guess I'm just kinda boring... Yeah,. we have our new farm.. but it's not the first place in the country I've ever owned...


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

I hope that, no matter how much disposable income I might ever have, I don't succumb and buy one of those frilly leather pouches to stick a cell phone on my belt.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

simi-steading said:


> I've known a lot of women who can shoot a lot better than most guys... I've known women who shot all their life, and it was no big deal to them.. but then I've met women that picked up a gun later in life, and they just aren't the same as women who hunt and shoot all their life..
> 
> I know I'm not going to be able to put into words what I'm trying to understand.. so maybe this was a bad discussion to start, because I know I'll only be attacked rather than being able to understand a human phenomenon..


Well- go back and eliminate "uppity" from your OP. 

Then I would suggest that periodically, men have been the peacocks (appropos, oui?) in fashion. The words dandy and fop come to mind. 
And women might think that the advertising or movie they saw with the big bike or game adventure looked like fun and why not. And, since their fathers and boyfriends and husbands have probably never gave them any experience to the contrary, they take the word of the salesman. 
And, having been told what your role is by others, it may take you some time to figure out that it is not gospel. 

Long live "uppity" women..................


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Maybe if you did not feel the need to use labels such as girly and understand that we are all individuals ( male and female) and we can choose how we want to live our lives, you might understand. Right now you sound quite bigoted on how men and women should present themselves and behave.


Bigoted? Seriously? That seems like a pretty harsh accusation, especially when he's actually taking in what people are saying and actually wanting to understand.

Wow.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I use the word uppity for men too... 

the entitled.. the elitist... the rich.. the better than us.... The ones that look down their noses at the middle class... 

Better?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CraterCove said:


> Bigoted? Seriously? That seems like a pretty harsh accusation, especially when he's actually taking in what people are saying and actually wanting to understand.
> 
> Wow.


He understood what I meant and explained it. He did not seem to have a problem with it so why should you.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

simi-steading said:


> I use the word uppity for men too...
> 
> the entitled.. the elitist... the rich.. the better than us.... The ones that look down their noses at the middle class...
> 
> Better?


better


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

While I was growing up I was told that I would not work because I was female, could not farm because I was female, could not wear pants because I was female, could not take the classes I wanted because I was female, and so forth.

When I grew up I pretty much ignored the gender roles.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

simi-steading said:


> OK.. I can understand that... but why wait until mid life to start deciding it's time to learn to hunt, or become a biker chick?
> 
> I've known girls that did those things from a young age, and they have totally different attitudes than the women who decide later in life to take those things up... They don't make a big deal out of it like the women just taking up the sport.. .
> 
> The same with guys too... I've ridden motorcycles since I was a kid, and have ridden with many men who did the same... but when you meet a guy who decides to buy a motorcycle at 40.. he's a totally different kind of person, and seems to think he's now some kinda special tough guy that is trying to prove something..


That would be the "middle age crazies". People wake up and realize their youth is behind them and their old age/death isn't that far off. Some of them seem to revert to their teenage fantasies. A lot of divorces happen, they buy Corvettes or bikes or boats, etc. I think what they are trying to prove, to themselves as much as anyone, is that they aren't really past their prime. 

As far as the "metro" men, they have always been around. Look at the old photo's, there were guys with soft hands and maybe spectacles who never undertook anything physically demanding or dangerous. They rode in a carriage or wagon instead of horseback. The banker, the store keeper, the bookkeeper, the druggist, the school teacher, all kinds of occupations back then too where you didn't need to be strong and tough.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I have no issues with what jobs a woman has or can do. I work for and with a lot of women, and have quite a few times in my life.. nor a man for that matter.. A guy wants to do manicures, more power to him... 

Let me use as an example something in the article I posted that may maybe more describe what I'm not getting about "out to prove something".. and then something else I've seen a lot.. 

In the article, the lady talks about her gun hickeys.. she is proud of them, like it's a badge of honor she likes to show off.. 

Well all the women I've known that grew up shooting and hunting would be ashamed of that... They would say something like "Dang it, I shouldered my gun wrong, and would try to hide it... I'd almost bet the lady in the article would roll up her shirt sleeve and wear it that way to show off constantly if she could.. 

My wife works with two different women... Both ride motorcycles... near the same ages.. 40 or so.. 

One has been riding all her life, the other has been riding only a couple years.. The one riding all her life is a secretary... the new rider is a paralegal.. 

The secretary is a country girl, and actually lives in PA, but comes to DC and stays here all week to work, then heads home on the weekend... She's very humble and down home... We've ridden with her several times, and stayed at her place for the riding up there.. 

She rides a normal every day bike... not too big, not over powered, and doesn't get all dressed up in biker gear other than a leather coat if it's cold.. 

Then you have the Paralegal.. she tries to throw her weight around the office like she's a partner... She rides on of the biggest and baddest over powered sports bikes you can buy.. she wears a $3000 (no kidding) riding suit, and has to get dressed in it before she leaves the office... 

This is what I'm kind of trying to get at... something to prove.. the lady with the article is proud of not shouldering her gun correctly, and the life long shooter is ashamed of it...


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

MO_cows said:


> Look at the old photo's, there were guys with soft hands


This is funny you bring this up... Most all my life I've had very rough callaced and cracked hands..

Well since I've been driving a desk the last 12-13 years, They've gotten soft.. When ever we go out to the farm to work, I don't wear gloves.. I never did when I was working as a mechanic, welder, or in construction... I just don't like them... 

So anyway, my wife was giving me a hard time because I wasn't wearing gloves while splitting wood a couple weeks ago, and I got my hand between a couple logs as one rolled and took a hunk of skin out of a knuckle.. 

She asked me what I was trying to prove by not wearing gloves... I told her nothing.. I just never wore them, and I don't like them, and I feel like they are in my way... 

But... then I did tell her.. Well, once we get moved out here to the farm, I guess I do need to prove something.. If I'm going out to try and find a blue collar manual labor job, if I go to shake hands with the boss when I meet him, he's not going to think much of me if I have soft hands...


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## unregistered5595 (Mar 3, 2003)

painterswife said:


> To prove something? No not that at all.
> 
> My sister has climbed the ladder almost as high as it gets in a very large corporation. She started out as a typist. The most important thing she will tell you about climbing the ladder is playing the same game as the boys. That means playing golf or hunting or what ever that corporate culture requires. In her business the deals get made on the golf course so she learnt to play and play well and she broke the glass ceiling with her golf club.


I agree with this and also:
Our company would PAY for the men to go golfing so they could discuss business strategies and team bonding. In the same department with equally educated women doing the same jobs, they would not be reimburse women for any group sports outing, shopping, or any other thing they chose to do in order to discuss business strategies and team bonding. 
I specifically asked about this.
The company policy was that it was only reimbursing for golfing 'business meetings'.
That is why women choose, at times, to enter into what are traditionally men's sports and activities.

I also had interest in archery and tennis competitions, so sometimes it is an interest in the sport or activity.
This is a large manufacturing company, and more than 90% of ALL consumers have these products made by this company in their homes. Aren't you lucky!


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

IMO, women who buy top of the line, bigger than they can handle guns and bikes do so because sometimes in order to be taken seriously in what was once a predominately male activity you have to be bigger, badder, flashier. Sometimes the only thing the "guys" look at is the horse power of the bike or the firepower of the gun. I know I have bought stuff that would more than do the job because I liked the item and I had the money to buy what I liked. 

I don't know what the deal is with all the "metro" with the guys. Not being one I can't speak about what goes on in their heads. But there is something extremely sexy about a well dressed man.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

simi-steading said:


> This is what I'm kind of trying to get at... something to prove.. the lady with the article is proud of not shouldering her gun correctly, and the life long shooter is ashamed of it...


I have a large dent in the side of my pick up from trying to pull a stump that wouldn;t budge. It represents a mistake but it also represents a great feeling because I did get that stump, and many others, out by myself. It's a badge that says I can do what I set out to do. And am not stopped by the learning curve.

I imagine that many a boy has stupidly been proud of the shiner he got while not winning the fight. It's just a sign he was not a wimp.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

I agree with you semi---I can and will work hard and it can be dirty sweaty work---BUT--I do that because it needs to get done. When I am lucky enought to shed the work closes I love it. 

There is a generation of females and they seem to be mentored by the militant woman lib folk. Personally I go out of my way and thank men who offer me help along the way. 

I think that I get what you are saying--it is not popular in the PC world.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I have a friend who was the president of a first national bank in a small town in the rural midwest... It was passed to him through the family started by his great grandfather.

You'd have never known he was rich... you would have thought him to be the typical good ole country boy... and he had to be, because most of his customers were, and they all related to him well.. 

But then he started to change.. he wanted to start shocking people, so he'd go do things like get a pedicure and his nails painted, then pull off his shoes in a board meeting and put them on the desk... Hey, ,he was the boss, who was to stop him.. 

Then he started dressing a lot more "metro" He said he liked the new metro style.. .

Well what it all boiled down to, was a huge well known unliked national banking company was working to buy him out... He was alo going to go work for them as a CFO... 

What he was doing, was getting the people that worked at the bank used to seeing more "metro" kinds of people in their branch, and he was getting used to trying to dress up and look like one of the people he'd be working for.. 

He told me "I sure hated doing it, but it made me a lot richer..." (btw, he lives more modest than most the average people I know hocked up to their eyeballs) You would never know he had any money.. much less millions..


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

A dented pick up means you actually use it to work... I have no problems driving my mud caked truck here in DC when we get back from the farm.. I actually use my truck for what a truck is made for... Here in the city, people use them as status symbols, and the more bling you can hang off it, the better... 

I don't get all the jeeps I see all over this city... all dressed up and spotless.... I'd bet only one out of every 1000 makes it to see anything other than a sidewalk off road... I just don't get it...


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

CraterCove said:


> Bigoted? Seriously? That seems like a pretty harsh accusation, especially when he's actually taking in what people are saying and actually wanting to understand.
> 
> Wow.


Liberals always call everyone else a bigot or racist, rules for radicals!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> Liberals always call everyone else a bigot or racist, rules for radicals!


I did not call him a bigot. I said his post made him sound that way. He explained and we were done with it. It does no one any good to make it into anything more than it was. An observation about what his post conveyed to me. No one else need get into the middle of anything.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Isn't it interesting how typing on the web can make something seem like what it's not?

Believe me.. if I was bigoted, my wife would have never had anything to do with me... She does put up with my pigheadedness though 

No worries.. I didn't take offence, because I know I'd end up sounding like I was just because of the subject matter... It's something that doesn't get addressed often... As Kali said... It's kind of a un-PC subject..


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

simi-steading said:


> Isn't it interesting how typing on the web can make something seem like what it's not?
> 
> Believe me.. if I was bigoted, my wife would have never had anything to do with me... She does put up with my pigheadedness though


I never thought you were. The words just conveyed the wrong impression.( to me)


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I've never been known to be an eloquent scribe... die:


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

simi-steading said:


> I don't get all the jeeps I see all over this city... all dressed up and spotless.... I'd bet only one out of every 1000 makes it to see anything other than a sidewalk off road... I just don't get it...


The ones crawling over smooth railroad tracks crack me up.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Danaus29 said:


> The ones crawling over smooth railroad tracks crack me up.


I had a H3 Hummer cut me off last night, then a half mile up the road he almost parked it before he went to crawl over the railroad tracks.. I keep telling me wife SUV really stands for Stupid Urban Vehicle


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## housewife (Mar 16, 2006)

simi-steading said:


> A dented pick up means you actually use it to work... I have no problems driving my mud caked truck here in DC when we get back from the farm.. I actually use my truck for what a truck is made for... Here in the city, people use them as status symbols, and the more bling you can hang off it, the better...
> 
> I don't get all the jeeps I see all over this city... all dressed up and spotless.... I'd bet only one out of every 1000 makes it to see anything other than a sidewalk off road... I just don't get it...



I hear you on that one. I have a jeep compas but it does off road very nicely. I do need it sometimes. I have a neighbour with a wrangler that never ever leaves the pavement. He has big mud tires and 4X4. Is it sad that all I can think as he's driving by is I'm glad I don't have his gas bill. 

As for the rest of it I don't get it either. I cut my hair when I was in the Air Reserves long hair is a pain to deal with in the military. It's back to being long. I have never really done much of the girly stuff. Heels in colege is about it. Heck a couple of years ago my daughter informed me that my white dress shoes are not white!! I've owned them for over 20 years, and they look white to me. I'm happiest in jeans, boots and a T-shirt/ sweat shirt. I dont fit in the city well, I really don't understand or care what the "jones" are up too. I guess I'm boaring too


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

When a woman first steps out into a role she has always been told not to have, she is tense and she is nervous. Mostly she feels like she has to prove something to other people, when in reality she only has to prove something to herself.

The women who are casual about it are women who are comfortable with it. But, beginners are rarely comfortable!


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

That's a good point Terri.. I see guys do the same thing... 

I especially like seeing the guys who like to throw their weight around in the board room end up face to face with someone they've hacked off in public, like cutting in line or similar, and get confronted.. they always seem to not be so big once someone they can't fire actually confronts them..


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

We get a lot of hunters from Europe (especially Germany) and their get up often makes me smile. They have it all and some really do look like Elmer Fudd out to get that Pesky Wabbit - but even though they are urbanites they can also hunt and they respect the environment so they are more than welcome.

And honestly. The Duck Dynasty boys go to church and furniture shopping in full camouflage. Are they expecting to have to stalk a Lazy Boy recliner?

People like to wear suitable or distinctive clothes for an activity. How many have a football or hockey jersey and have never played either game? It IS a form of bragging but so what? 

Jeeps and big pickups in the city are ridiculous but I have seem a few good old boys (and girls) with huge boats on ridiculously small ponds.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

simi-steading said:


> I get that, but these women will probably never be in the position they will need to go hunt big game to survive... They don't need to ride motorcycles twice the size as to what is safe for them...
> 
> Kinda like the new gold show on TV.. these family of city women are working their fathers old claims... Which is cool and good... but it's not like they are serious about it.. it seems to be more they are worried about how good they look than how much gold they get... They won't listen to the people they hire to help them find gold, but rather think they know better... like they are trying to prove they are smarter as newbies than the old timers..
> 
> But this isn't just about the women.. I'm not getting this whole "Metro" thing... and men buying more expensive fashions than the women.. all the manicures and pedicures and such...


Most of those corporate big shot men will also never be in the position they will need to go hunt big game to survive either. They do it because they want to do it and they can afford it. The same thing goes for the women.

I think that's all it boils down to for both genders. They are now doing things they want to do that previous generations were hindered from doing, or that were socially frowned on by an uptight society, or were declared illegal and not allowed.

Times are changing and people of both genders have been gaining more freedoms to indulge themselves.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

simi-steading said:


> I use the word uppity for men too...
> 
> the entitled.. the elitist... the rich.. the better than us.... The ones that look down their noses at the middle class...
> 
> Better?


uppity means self important; arrogant. 

I know a lot of people who fit this description. Nothing to do with income or job or gender. Just people who think they are better than others. They are white, blue and green collars, male and female. Lots of uppity homesteaders looking down their noses at a city person who can't grow a garden or raise chickens. Lots of city dwellers looking down their noses at a country person who can't perform surgery or file court documents or build cars or ships or planes.


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## GrammaBarb (Dec 27, 2012)

Hi Folks,

Hmmm---gender roles, etc. I guess I sort of have a dog in this (verbal) fight, since I've been riding two wheels since before I was legal, and that was a LONG time ago.

Funny about the size thing; my first bike was a 125cc Lambretta scooter that my father got for me. I loved it and once took it from Salt Lake City to L.A. and back, across the desert before the freeway. (Boy, was I dumb!)

Second bike was a flathead post-war Harley. It fell over, I couldn't pick it up, so it went away and the first of many dozen British bikes--a BSA--came along. Then Norton Commandos and true love....

Remember the song, "I was Country when Country wasn't cool?" Yeah--that was me as a teenager and young adult, only it involved bikes. And y'know? Two generations and several decades later I still have half a dozen bikes in my shed---some I've had longer than I was married! 

That's all the great stuff. The teeth-grinder is when someone says, "Beauty of a bike---who does your wrenching?" I smile sweetly (remembering murder is illegal and not nice) and simply say, "I do, of course." And they are still surprised! In my youth it bothered me more than it does now.....but dang, it certainly takes a long time for people to "get it"......it's not about gender, it's about doing what you love! :thumb:

Oh. I like sidecars, too. (Now *that* takes a special sort of insanity.....)

Barb (And Millie the Beemer, and Bella the Triumph, and, and.....)


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

The OP did come off as bigoted in the first post, calling women "uppity" because they were doing things reserved for men. He said that's not the way he meant it etc. It appears that some people just MUST throw some political jabs just because, but hey, there's always one...

To the OP, I think that most of the time, anyone who comes to a "bigshot" hobby late in life will always be a bit flashy about it. It goes with males or females, and for most big hobbies, whether it's riding motorcycles, hunting or sailing or whatever. If it's popular or pricy, they want to share what they're doing, including bruises from the mistakes and pictures of when they dumped the $40K sail overboard accidentally.

When we have new fighters, they always show off the bruises. If they blocked better, they wouldn't have bruises, right? So they should be ashamed. No way. They're out there TRYING the new hobby, and they're proud that they did what they've done so far. And even a experienced fighter will come up against a REALLY awesome fighter and take some bruises and show them off too. Why? Because he went up against that better fighter and wasn't it cool!?

The woman showing off her bruises is proud that she's doing that hobby. I know guys that have shown off shoulder bruises to me, because they went shotgun shooting at the target range and still don't understand "Hold it tighter". But it's proof they went out shooting.

And I see more country folks wandering the grocery store in camo than not. They don't need camo to stalk the potato chips, they just like wearing camo. No judgement from me, I love the color green. I've worn costumes into regular stores, just cause.

Instead of judging the people because they chose to do something different than the "accepted activity", folks should be pleased they are doing what makes them happy. My boss's husband gets mani/pedicures and he's pretty metro... not totally, no wearing a handbag or getting the brows sculpted, but he's a decent guy and works hard. I think he should spend his money doing whatever he wants. There's plenty of spit-on-the-sidewalk hairy knuckle-draggers like my husband was to make up for him, lol. 

And before anyone takes offense at the knuckle-dragger comment, that's what my husband called himself, and I like those type better than the neatly done up metro types.

And I'm not a liberal. Or a conservative. Or a blue-footed boobie. For the record. Last time I checked, anyway.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

I'm a female... I didn't see his post as 'bigoted' Definition: "having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others."

Now I do see some 'bigoted' posts here and there... but not Simi's.

(also not a conservative or a liberal, myself but I will take the little 'l' libertarian as a title)


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

simi-steading said:


> Thank you... I think you've hit the nail on the head with such a simple answer... Exactly what I was looking for to try and understand these changes.. The pressure of society and the changes of morals..


................From my perspective , I think modern society has totally screwed UP gender roles for men and women..........as evidence , we now have kids in junior high trying to figure out IF they're gay or straight ! Girls wondering IF their lesbians ! I see lesbian couples in wally world , and it's easy to spot the MAN , you know the one with the butch haircut and she's usually twice the size of the 'Wife' . She can't grow a set of testicles , or a penis so she does everything else to impersonate the Man in a normal heterosexual couple . It's the most ridiculous thing to witness Role reversal when women want to become Men . 
.................Personally , I have never had a problem with women who want to excel at the 'Man' type activities , nor have I ever felt threatened by a lady who could shoot much better than I could , cause I was never a good shot to begin with . Sooner or later society will get all this gender stuff figured out and we can get back to the business of people just being people . , fordy:cowboy:


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

I can handle just about anything people wear, drive , have or do if the "outsides" match their insides......not just an image that they are trying to project.


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

Simi, I do see and understand what you are getting at, and no, i dont think you are being a biggot. I see it to. All I can say is, its trendy. 
Example, some woman who has always hunted has a story in a mag done about her and " the big one" she got. Story enticed a handful of other women to start hunting, which in turn gets more people talking bout women hunting, etc, etc....its trendy.

As far a men being prissy and ego-sissy.... Also trendy, disturbing and pointless, but trendy.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Most people just took up the roles, that were handed to them by their parents and their parent's parents.

The world is different now. People do what they want to.

Women can drive trucks, shoot a gun and handle a Corporate board meeting.

Men can change diapers, make cupcakes and operate a sewing machine.

The capabilities have always been there.

Some people actually like stronger women and more sensitive men.

Others are frightened, by the concept.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

A journalist asked one young man why the metrosexual look?

"To get girls", was the answer. 

Men have done stranger things to get girls, including wearing fancy clothes in Tudor times, and shaving their faces in the first place.


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## unregistered5595 (Mar 3, 2003)

metrosexuals--have hygiene, THIS is a good thing too!

Men in Scotland wear skirts, a kilt.:clap:


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

fordy said:


> ................From my perspective , I think modern society has totally screwed UP gender roles for men and women..........as evidence , we now have kids in junior high trying to figure out IF they're gay or straight ! Girls wondering IF their lesbians ! I see lesbian couples in wally world , and it's easy to spot the MAN , you know the one with the butch haircut and she's usually twice the size of the 'Wife' . She can't grow a set of testicles , or a penis so she does everything else to impersonate the Man in a normal heterosexual couple . It's the most ridiculous thing to witness Role reversal when women want to become Men .
> .................Personally , I have never had a problem with women who want to excel at the 'Man' type activities , nor have I ever felt threatened by a lady who could shoot much better than I could , cause I was never a good shot to begin with . Sooner or later society will get all this gender stuff figured out and we can get back to the business of people just being people . , fordy:cowboy:


I disagree, that this is just a symptom of a "modern society".

Men being "feminine" and women being "masculine" - and everything in between, has been around as long as long as humans have been around.

However, It was always repressed, to man -or woman, either by religion and society in general and "who" you were, was wholly dependent, on what was between your legs.

Human sexuality, is infinitely more complex than that and fortunately people are finally realizing it as such.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Feather In The Breeze said:


> metrosexuals--have hygiene, THIS is a good thing too!
> 
> Men in Scotland wear skirts, a kilt.:clap:


So it's hygiene to put guck in your hair that makes it sticky or prickly or otherwise unpleasant to touch? Ummm... no thank you.

Scots wearing kilts is manly, they show off well muscled hairy man legs.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

simi-steading said:


> Ah.. I didn't think of that angle... so I guess now the men are looking so much more girly to keep from intimidating the women?


If by girly you mean men dressing like fancy peacocks, there's always been girly men throughout all of history right around the world. Most of the powerful, wealthiest of nobility, corporate leaders, presidents, kings, emperors, prominent religious leaders and all of their favoured court or councellors, etc. have all been peacocks. Wearing gold and gems around their necks and fingers, dressed in velvets, cashmere, silks and satins, the softest buttery smooth leather, the finest of footwear, hats and haberdashery, gold watches, the flashiest tie pins and cuff links, fancy (and often useless) weapons with handles of precious metals encrusted with gems and pearls. Long manicured fingernails for dipping snuff or drugs and to show they didn't have to lift a finger to do manual work. The biggest flashiest horses or carriages .... or sports cars, trucks, motorcycles, boats, etc. 

Not much has changed except that there are more people in the world that want to show that they think they're as good as or better than their betters and can afford to strut their flashy peacock stuff.

Women too. It's human nature.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

I'm glad I live out full time on the homestead, I forget how ridiculous people are. Men being told they must act like women, women trying to act like men, and everybody over-analyzing everything everybody does to try and figure out the motivations for it.

Sheep, wood, vegetables, chickens, eggs, and tractors...have a nice ring to them, dont they?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

simi-steading said:


> I stumbled on this article some how.. about uppity corperate women becoming big game hunters.
> 
> http://tmagazine.blogs.nytimes.com/...l-women-who-hunt-shoot-and-gut-their-dinners/
> 
> Something I've been noticing over the last decade or so.... Women seem to be out to try and prove something.. and men being less and less manly...


It is the result of the programming that started in the 70's.
Schools (public and private) are the primary programmers.
Media, music, and Hollywood tie up any loose ends that schools leave.



> I was just downstairs at the food court in the building for lunch, and I was noticing how most the guys all seem to be "pretty" "Metro" guys.. sporting all of their latest fashions of the fall line..


Yep.
Sickening.



> I've known quite a few girls that go out and get a motorcycle MUCH bigger than they are, as a first bike, and decide they need to be biker chicks... I've seen men do the same, but funny, they seem to buy their first bike smaller than what the women pick..
> 
> Just wondering what has changed in society that is creating these kinds of role reversals.. .


Sowing, reaping.
The seeds of 'role reversal' have been sown for decades....
We are now seeing the "fruits" of this labor.
Bitter, fruits.....


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## okiemom (May 12, 2002)

simi-steading said:


> I get that, but these women will probably never be in the position they will need to go hunt big game to survive... They don't need to ride motorcycles twice the size as to what is safe for them...
> 
> Kinda like the new gold show on TV.. these family of city women are working their fathers old claims... Which is cool and good... but it's not like they are serious about it.. it seems to be more they are worried about how good they look than how much gold they get... They won't listen to the people they hire to help them find gold, but rather think they know better... like they are trying to prove they are smarter as newbies than the old timers..
> 
> But this isn't just about the women.. I'm not getting this whole "Metro" thing... and men buying more expensive fashions than the women.. all the manicures and pedicures and such...


 
now when do men really need to go out and kill something in the woods to survive???? Seriously?! Why do men really need a bike to prove their manliness? Hope they ALL have good live insurance and have marked their organ doner cards as they both have the same capability of dying one. 

There is no such thing as the extended family anymore it is everyone for themselves and women have to do whatever it takes to provide for themselves and their children. 

Divorce, baby daddies, and family spread out all over the country is what has caused this. Why can't women be top execs? Many of the top companies now have a female leader at the helm.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

> It is the result of the programming that started in the 70's.
> Schools (public and private) are the primary programmers.
> Media, music, and Hollywood tie up any loose ends that schools leave.


Time to blame the Liberals. 

Every since the caveman stopped clubbing, the women he wanted to date, when men wanted to court, they took a bath, put on their best shirt, greased their hair back and put on something that smelled better, than they normally did. How about the male peacock?

Fast-forward 400,000 years and the mating scheme, is pretty much the same, more or less. Men (young or old) want to be noticed by women, at least most of them.

Women have always been powerful, but that power was relegated to chopping wood, sweeping rugs, baking blue ribbon pies and pushing out babies. Maybe if they were lucky, they could chair the PTA, at school.

Since the days of suffrage and "women's Liberation", they save been taught, that their power is theirs, to do with as they choose.

Good? Bad? 

Probably some of both.

People tend to think that the "good old days" of totally heterosexual, well defined, _family_ roles were always good.

They were not. Many times, they were not even real.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Um... when do men have to go kill something in the woods to survive? When my family needs meat. What a weird thing to suggest on a homesteading forum...


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

CraterCove said:


> Um... when do men have to go kill something in the woods to survive? When my family needs meat. What a weird thing to suggest on a homesteading forum...


The comment that you're responding to wasn't about homesteaders. It was about corporate executive urban dwellers who go hunting for sport and to boost their status in the corporate world, not hunting for survival. People like that don't ever need to hunt for survival.

Actually, this entire topic is not really about homesteaders or farmers or hard working poor country people. It's more about the roles and role reversals of urban people who can do or buy whatever they want and have all the toys they want, pamper themselves with luxuries and show off their status because they can afford it.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Paumon said:


> Actually, this entire topic is not really about homesteaders or farmers or hard working poor country people. *It's more about the roles and role reversals of urban people who can do or buy whatever they want and have all the toys they want, pamper themselves with luxuries and show off their status because they can afford it*.


Where have you been?

Gays and lesbians homestead and farm. Farm husbands change diapers, vacuum and do the dishes. Farm wives, drive the $300,000 tractor, ride the ATV's and manage the bank, in town.

It's not about toys or doing something "weird". 

It's about people living their lives the way _they_ want to, verses someone else telling them how.

Seems almost freeing, at least to some.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Over 68 posts in this topic so far and I never really noticed people focusing on gay or lesbian farmers or farm wives driving tractors and farm husbands changing diapers. 

Seemed to me like the topic was more about role reversals in modern day urban society, women and motorcycles, urbanites and hummers, women doing big game sport hunting amongst the corporate elite, and men who wear fancy metro clothes while women continue to do the same so-called "manly" things they've already been doing for the past 100 years since WW1 and WW2. 

Indeed, where have I been and what has changed so much in the past 100 years? Nothing.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

I don't know what all the fuss is about. For hundreds of years men have been leaving home and country to go to war to kill people or go hunting to kill animals and the women have been staying home doing all the men's jobs at home while the men were away. 

Now women do men's jobs even when their men are not away. That is the only thing that has changed in the past 100 years. Women no longer are willing to fall back into a subservient, inferior role after taking on so much responsibility. It's nothing to get all excited about after all these years. It's normal.


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## backtocolo (May 1, 2012)

I haven't read all the replies but a couple of things that come to mind. 

Some women in their 40s went to college to get their MRS. They got the kids right after college. Now the kids are out of the house and they have time, energy and money to do stuff that has always interested them.

They finally got the self confidence to say "the heck with what everybody else thinks. I am doing xyz because it makes me happy".

I have some friends who have spent their lives being told by their fathers and then by husbands what they should/can do. They get a divorce or are widowed and decide to prove ol dad or ex dh wrong.

Also many of the younger women today who aren't on welfare or counting on a baby daddy to take care of them have been raised by parents who have taught them if they want something figure out what path you need to take to get there and then go for it.

I think a lot of the "metro" guys are just buying into "keeping up with the jones" and the sheeple mentalility of everybody else is doing it. The folks who took the trouble to find this site, read and post on it are not cut from the same cloth as most of the folks you will find at the mall.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

simi-steading said:


> I stumbled on this article some how.. about uppity corperate women becoming big game hunters.
> 
> http://tmagazine.blogs.nytimes.com/...l-women-who-hunt-shoot-and-gut-their-dinners/
> 
> ...


Geez, another 3 page thread with deleted posts that I am late to jumping in. Sorry, I'm too lazy to read it all. Simi, I'll get my inner-knuckledragger going and break it all down by gender for you. 

For the gals, it is all about security, but not the kind of "do-it-myself" security that they wear on their sleeve. The big game hunt for the single gals is all about bagging a trophy hub with a nice paycheck and a nice, big, nest and secure future. For the married gals, the big game hunt is all about reminding their hubs that they still have a pulse, and if they want to keep their bride, they better get off their rear and work for her. Both hunts center around activities that are in the man-domain, but only because men are there. I present as exhibit A my DD, age 15, that has just discovered boys. Their is some lacky named "Colt" in a few of her classes that she keeps going on and on about that is going deer hunting in Montana this week. DD15, who fights me tooth and nail over the slaughter of any animal, has just set my alarm on this fine weekend for 5AM so she can go deer hunting with me in the morning. "Awwww. A father-daughter deer hunt." you say. How cute. But I see right through her plans to snap a "selfie" with her dead buck, or doe, just to share it with this "Colt" on FB to prove herself worthy. 

For the guys...oye. You know, at least for the gals it is all good and for the betterment of mankind. I'm afraid for the guys, the androgynous role is all just effectively executed strategy from a bunch of eugenics freaks to spike our milk and cheap American beer with estrogen to keep us from procreation.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

where I want to said:


> Long live "uppity" women..................


They can live as long as they want.... just as long as they live somewhere other than my house! I dont do uppity.


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

Awnry Abe said:


> Geez, another 3 page thread with deleted posts that I am late to jumping in. Sorry, I'm too lazy to read it all. Simi, I'll get my inner-knuckledragger going and break it all down by gender for you.
> 
> For the gals, it is all about security, but not the kind of "do-it-myself" security that they wear on their sleeve. The big game hunt for the single gals is all about bagging a trophy hub with a nice paycheck and a nice, big, nest and secure future. For the married gals, the big game hunt is all about reminding their hubs that they still have a pulse, and if they want to keep their bride, they better get off their rear and work for her. Both hunts center around activities that are in the man-domain, but only because men are there. I present as exhibit A my DD, age 15, that has just discovered boys. Their is some lacky named "Colt" in a few of her classes that she keeps going on and on about that is going deer hunting in Montana this week. DD15, who fights me tooth and nail over the slaughter of any animal, has just set my alarm on this fine weekend for 5AM so she can go deer hunting with me in the morning. "Awwww. A father-daughter deer hunt." you say. How cute. But I see right through her plans to snap a "selfie" with her dead buck, or doe, just to share it with this "Colt" on FB to prove herself worthy.
> 
> For the guys...oye. You know, at least for the gals it is all good and for the betterment of mankind. I'm afraid for the guys, the androgynous role is all just effectively executed strategy from a bunch of eugenics freaks to spike our milk and cheap American beer with estrogen to keep us from procreation.


Really? So according to you, the only reason women go big game hunting is to "bag a man" or "keep a man"? So all the female hunters I know who go hunting and couldn't care less about the guys or what anyone thinks are all just looking to bag a husband? 

I'm sorry that your own kid only wants to hunt to impress a boy, but that doesn't mean every female that hunts is out to impress a guy. There's a lot of females out there that do stuff every day that(hold your chair!) has nothing to do with bagging a guy. Some women actually do activities because they enjoy them.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

> For the guys...oye. You know, at least for the gals it is all good and for the betterment of mankind. I'm afraid for the guys, the androgynous role is all just effectively executed strategy from a bunch of eugenics freaks to spike our milk and cheap American beer with estrogen to keep us from procreation.


Real men, find strong women a challenge, not something to be afraid of.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

plowjockey said:


> Real men, find strong women a challenge, not something to be afraid of.


Real men know the difference between a strong women and a poser lily princess wannabe.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I find the idea of women here on a homesteading site putting down other women because they don't fit their idea of what a women should be, or do, or like, or enjoy, or try the height of hypocrisy.

You should be celebrating that they are venturing out trying new things and living the life they want to live instead of calling them names like "poser lily princess wannabe"


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

painterswife said:


> I find the idea of women here on a homesteading site putting down other women because they don't fit their idea of what a women should be, or do, or like, or enjoy, or try the height of hypocrisy.
> 
> You should be celebrating that they are venturing out trying new things and living the life they want to live instead of calling them names like "poser lily princess wannabe"


Uh, my comment was specifically about these so called 'strong but challenging' women. Not the same at all. But you got it... instead of expressing my opinion I'll just do what you think I should.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I suspect the girls with the bikes too big for them are the exception rather than the rule. You will probably find the same thing with guys. Not a whole lot different from the guys or girls that monstrous off road vehicles or muscle cars that know nothing about them. 
As a single girl who does a lot of guy work, I have to say it's mostly out of necessity, but partly because I like it. I'm handy with a chainsaw, but am smart enough to know I don't want one bigger than I can handle. My ATV is a comfortable size for me, but not as big as a car. Last week I scored a used brush guard for cheap to put on my 4X4 truck. Today I got it mounted, after modifying the brackets myself. I am a happy camper. Even though it makes sense that women are the keepers of the home as they are the child bearers, and the men would be the hunters as they are typically stronger, it is a shame to be stuck in the roles when there's work to be done.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

simi-steading said:


> A dented pick up means you actually use it to work... I have no problems driving my mud caked truck here in DC when we get back from the farm.. I actually use my truck for what a truck is made for... Here in the city, people use them as status symbols, and the more bling you can hang off it, the better...
> 
> I don't get all the jeeps I see all over this city... all dressed up and spotless.... I'd bet only one out of every 1000 makes it to see anything other than a sidewalk off road... I just don't get it...


Why ask why? Just think of these folks as providing a nice pool of gently used vehicles to choose from. Personally I'm thanking them instead of mocking them.

Mike


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## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S3220325.shtml?cat=12196

This recent local link is rather fitting here. The comments at the bottom are split as far as those in favor and those against her actions.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Less-is-more said:


> http://kstp.com/article/stories/S3220325.shtml?cat=12196
> 
> This recent local link is rather fitting here. The comments at the bottom are split as far as those in favor and those against her actions.


She is no different than any man who trophy hunts. You either agree with Trophy hunting or you don't. Those that feel the need to kill for trophy's ( man or women) have a certain mind set.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I've never understood trophy hunting either... I only hunt for meat.. 

Just the other day me and the wife were sitting on the porch watching the squirels play.. I told her after you watch them play with each other for a while, it sure does make it a lot harder to hunt them... 

We both really like squirrel, and I've always hunted them, and she wants to start... not to show them off.. but to add to the number we can get since we enjoy them.. 

If all I did was shoot them so I could mount them on a board, then no way would I be a hunter.. I still feel bad at times for taking a defenseless little animal, but at least he's going to the good of our health.. 

Same thing goes with a deer or any other animal I kill.. If I didn't do it for the meat, then I could no way feel right about it..


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Running trophies that usually the hardest to hit because they're skinnier.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

plowjockey said:


> Real men, find strong women a challenge, not something to be afraid of.


I have known a few strong women over the years, married two of them... wasnt at all afraid of them nor did I ever considered them "a challenge".... There are a lot of uppity women however that seem to confuse being a pain in the backside with strength... those ones I just dont care much for nor want to be around.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I have known a few strong women over the years, married two of them... wasnt at all afraid of them nor did I ever considered them "a challenge".... There are a lot of uppity women however that seem to confuse being a pain in the backside with strength... those ones I just dont care much for nor want to be around.


Yeah somehow people have decided that being completely uncompromising and unremittingly selfish means you are strong.


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## fransean (Dec 21, 2002)

As far as women are concerned..........we spend so much of our time taking care of others and putting ourselves last that as we get a little older and the kids are grown we start to think about doing something for ourselves. That is one of the reasons that you see women in their 40's and 50's "suddenly" taking on something new. We simple did not have time for ourselves earlier to explore our interests.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Interesting topic. I enjoy people watching. I can understand the "look at me" behaviors whether it's an off road capable vehicle that never sees dirt or someone dressed to impress. What throws you a curve is getting confused by gender. Why are some surprised by a woman driving a semi? If it was an old two stick, I wouldn't necessarily be surprised but I would be mildly impressed.

I got a kick out of seeing a picture of a woman way past retirement age who was shown with her deer that year. The photo was pinned up in a small store along with lots of others, mostly men or boys, that got theirs. I'm tickled pink when I see a picture of a girl with her first deer or one later on.

The clothing, golfing etc. has been going on forever. People fit in when they need to for whatever reason.

Motorcycles were never my thing. Been tempted a few times. Never had a hankering for a Harley. Have looked at Nortons on eBay and drooled. I made it to my sixties and figure part of the reason was I didn't tempt fate. I like speed way too much. Around here I leave people behind in the curves driving a 6 cylinder pickup. Brakes are for stop lights and signs.

to each his own for what ever reason. It's their time and money.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> They can live as long as they want.... just as long as they live somewhere other than my house! I dont do uppity.


Yup- two uppities would make a downer................


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Less-is-more said:


> http://kstp.com/article/stories/S3220325.shtml?cat=12196
> 
> This recent local link is rather fitting here. The comments at the bottom are split as far as those in favor and those against her actions.


I had been going to make a post about this woman, but you beat me to it.

I don't think Melissa Bachman fits into the same category as the women hunters that the OP news article was about. The OP article is about women with conscience who are learning about survival skills and hunting in the wilderness. They show respect for the wilderness and use the game that they kill for their own sustenance. They are not killing game indiscriminately or for wanton pleasure.

That Bachman woman is a whole different kettle of fish who isn't interested in survival skills, she's only interested in killing things because she gets a rush of pleasure from the kill. She has openly said so, I heard it out of her own mouth in one of her videos. She has made it onto the news internationally in the past couple of days. When they had it on the TV news here yesterday they also showed several short clips from videos she's made and photos of her with game that she has killed in various other countries around the world. I did an internet search about her and found more news, videos and photos. She's being described by many people as a contract game exterminator who glories in killing animals for a blood-lust thrill but has no respect for them or their environment or for the countries where she goes hunting. She has killed endangered animals in Africa for her video show and I can understand why the people there want to ban her from doing any more hunting in Africa.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Sorry, silly issue--- she killed a lion on a reservation that breeds African animals expressly for the purpose of hunting them. Not a problem. In fact if there had been such a breeding and hunting program run for the Black Rhino, perhaps it wouldn't be extinct now.

Also, Humans are predators. We are designed to take a thrill from our hunt. Bashing evolution/ design seems silly to me. Endorphins are nature's little treat for when we do what it wants us to do, breed, hunt perform social acts etc.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Some get an endorphin rush from killing their fellow humans. I don't think all endorphin rush's are acceptable. Not an excuse I would ever use to make something okay.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

It's not something that makes it an excuse and 'okay' it's just not some horrible evil to admit to it. And hunting a lion on a big game reserve is hardly killing one's fellows. Apples and oranges... both fruits but besides that, not much in common.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

I think the concept of a "reversal" of roles is rather old fashioned and silly. The world has changed and thus roles have changed. This is not detrimental to men or women - unless you make it so. 

In the past women were assigned a role by the society in which they lived (usually influenced by religion) and they pretty much had no say in it. In fact they were imprisoned in this role with no legal rights and certainly no right to an education which meant no profitable employment and complete dependence especially when children were involved. 

Now that this nonsense is over men have discovered that there is a lot of competition out there. It unsettles many men and they long for the old days when women were "kept in their place" and forced to stay at home and were dependent on financial support only from the man of the family. And some men were truly pathetic at this. 

Women can determine how they want to live their lives now. Men have always had the ability to do this and they have. Why should it be any different for women? Everyone can do whatever they want to do now. 

If a woman wants to learn to hunt at any age why is this something to mock or sneer at? If a man wants to learn to sew - ditto. In fact IMO any man or woman who can't do everything to take care of himself/herself and the family is actually incomplete. And any parent who lets a child go out into the world without all the skills needed to take care of themselves have not done a proper job.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CraterCove said:


> It's not something that makes it an excuse and 'okay' it's just not some horrible evil to admit to it. And hunting a lion on a big game reserve is hardly killing one's fellows. Apples and oranges... both fruits but besides that, not much in common.


So I guess that if you get an endorphin rush from wringing puppies necks and you raise them on a farm that would make it okay.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

painterswife said:


> So I guess that if you get an endorphin rush from wringing puppies necks and you raise them on a farm that would make it okay.


*rolls eyes* Yeah okay. You know whatever meat you eat was once a cute little baby too that it's mommy loved. But that has what to do with anything?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CraterCove said:


> *rolls eyes* Yeah okay. You know whatever meat you eat was once a cute little baby too that it's mommy loved. But that has what to do with anything?


We were discussing Trophy hunting not food gathering. Apples and Oranges to use your example.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

> Some get an endorphin rush from killing their fellow humans. I don't think all endorphin rush's are acceptable. Not an excuse I would ever use to make something okay.


I agree. This particular woman describes hereself as a _hardcore _huntress with _deadly passion_ and has plastered pictures of her tank top and bikini clad self all over internet together with scores of dead animals she's killed. In my way of viewing it it's nothing less than legal snuffporn that appeals to the base sexual pleasures of other blood-lust killers like herself and who would likely be killing people as well as animals if it was legal to hunt and kill people.

Endorphins or not, I personally don't think there's any excuse for wanton killing like this.

https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&...#hl=en&q=melissa+bachman+game+hunter&tbm=isch


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

I'm sure there is quite the thrill of the hunt associated with your examples of a puppy throttling farm? I guess I am just too dumb to understand your point.

Also, she is in Africa, I am sure she could (for the right price) hunt humans there. It's a pretty frightening place and I question the sanity of anyone who treads in the lands of despotic warlords for 'fun'.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

The thrill of the hunt could be easily experienced and end with a photo and not a kill. However as you pointed out so well this is really about killing not about hunting.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

I am just having a hard time getting my undies in a twist about someone like her. I just don't really care and don't really see what it has to do with role reversals as much as Paumon points out it seems like a kind of pornish edge to her schtick. Unless there is actual footage of the shot (and even then) I question if she actually does these things. She sounds like an average weblebrity to me and I'd rather listen to Tay Zonday than concern myself with 'The Huntress reborn'.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CraterCove said:


> I am just having a hard time getting my undies in a twist about someone like her. I just don't really care and don't really see what it has to do with role reversals as much as Paumon points out it seems like a kind of pornish edge to her schtick. Unless there is actual footage of the shot (and even then) I question if she actually does these things. She sounds like an average weblebrity to me and I'd rather listen to Tay Zonday than concern myself with 'The Huntress reborn'.


Why so many posts justifying her killing if you just don,t care? It was your opinon that getting an endorphin rush this way was acceptable.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

It certainly is natural. People actually wish this girl ill, physical harm and why? Because she is pursuing her fame and it's obviously been effective. Would you even know who she was if it wasn't for this recent little stunt and the media (so called) giving it so much attention? 

It shouldn't be left up to other people to dictate this sort of thing, a legal action carried out in a legal fashion. Make it illegal in your place and let others alone about it. Or would you maybe like someone like her to come to your place and get involved in your works and tell you how it should be done?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CraterCove said:


> It certainly is natural. People actually wish this girl ill, physical harm and why? Because she is pursuing her fame and it's obviously been effective. Would you even know who she was if it wasn't for this recent little stunt and the media (so called) giving it so much attention?
> 
> It shouldn't be left up to other people to dictate this sort of thing, a legal action carried out in a legal fashion. Make it illegal in your place and let others alone about it. Or would you maybe like someone like her to come to your place and get involved in your works and tell you how it should be done?


No one here in this discussion did anything more than say the don't agree with what she does. You are the one making accusations that someone here has taken it farther than words. That sidestep does not negate that you expressed the opinion that killing to get an endorphin rush was acceptable.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

painterswife said:


> No one here in this discussion did anything more than say the don't agree with what she does. You are the one making accusations that someone here has taken it farther than words. That sidestep does not negate that you expressed the opinion that killing to get an endorphin rush was acceptable.


Someone here? No way. But I actually travel to other sites and they have comments sections and the violence people would like to do to this woman over this lion is unspeakably barbaric in nature. 

And I never sidestepped anything. Nor have I recanted anything. It is natural, normal even to thrill in a hunt.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

CraterCove said:


> It certainly is natural. People actually wish this girl ill, physical harm and why? Because she is pursuing her fame and it's obviously been effective. Would you even know who she was if it wasn't for this recent little stunt and the media (so called) giving it so much attention?
> 
> It shouldn't be left up to other people to dictate this sort of thing, a legal action carried out in a legal fashion. Make it illegal in your place and let others alone about it. Or would you maybe like someone like her to come to your place and get involved in your works and tell you how it should be done?


I think all the media attention is getting her more than just fame. Certainly there are people who want to make trophy hunting illegal and by bringing these types of activities to the attention of the media it does make the public more aware of their cause to make it illegal.

I know there are lots of countries and lots of people who approve of trophy hunting tourism - it's all about the money - but I think there are less reprehensible ways for countries to attract tourists and make money. If I could make it illegal for trophy hunters to come to my country I would do so and I endorse the efforts of the natives of my province who are attempting to have the hunting laws changed so that trophy hunting tourism and trophy hunting in general in my province will become illegal.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CraterCove said:


> Someone here? No way. But I xactually travel to other sites and they have comments sections and the violence people would like to do to this woman over this lion is unspeakably barbaric in nature.
> 
> And I never sidestepped anything. Nor have I recanted anything. It is natural, normal even to thrill in a hunt.


She is thrilling in the kill.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

painterswife said:


> She is thrilling in the kill.


And? I mean is there actually a problem with that? It's an animal that she hunted and killed. One that despite being under controlled conditions and handheld (as she surely was) could have killed her with ease. I'm sure that is thrilling. Some people seem to think they are really really high above their animal nature.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CraterCove said:


> And? I mean is there actually a problem with that? It's an animal that she hunted and killed. One that despite being under controlled conditions and handheld (as she surely was) could have killed her with ease. I'm sure that is thrilling. Some people seem to think they are really really high above their animal nature.


Animal nature? Killing just to kill is okay in your books then. It's a endorphin high we are free to strive for. Lions or puppies or humans as long as we hunt them no problem. We are not above our animal nature so why even consider it.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

painterswife said:


> She is thrilling in the kill.


I think she already gets that. She's said she doesn't care. :bdh:


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Animal nature? Killing just to kill is okay in your books then. It's a endorphin high we are free to strive for. Lions or puppies or humans as long as we hunt them no problem. We are not above our animal nature so why even consider it.


I think you are extrapolating far askew of anything anyone has said. There are people who get endorphin rushes from wearing Rubber masks and pink fluffy bunny slippers. As much as the very idea makes me squeamish they are free to pursue their kicks as long as it's legal where they are.


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## unregistered5595 (Mar 3, 2003)

emdeengee said:


> Now that this nonsense is over men have discovered that there is a lot of competition out there. It unsettles many men and they long for the old days when women were "kept in their place" and forced to stay at home and were dependent on financial support only from the man of the family. And some men were truly pathetic at this.


The "don't play with my Boy Toys" (guy activities, guy equipment), said to women, is really just a remnant of that longing for the olden days when women were "kept in their place" by men. I see it often as a litmus test for men to test to see if they are surrounded by "the good ol' boys" or a more enlightened crowd. Apparently here, we have a more enlightened crowd.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CraterCove said:


> I think you are extrapolating far askew of anything anyone has said. There are people who get endorphin rushes from wearing Rubber masks and pink fluffy bunny slippers. As much as the very idea makes me squeamish they are free to pursue their kicks as long as it's legal where they are.


I am simply trying to understand how you can have the opionon that what she is doing is okay because it is an endorphin rush? I gave you 3 other endorphin rushes that involved hunting and killing and want to know why they would be any different.

You stated we are not above our animal nature as another example that it is acceptable. Oranges and Oranges.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

painterswife said:


> *I am simply trying to understand* how you can have the opionon that what she is doing is okay because it is an endorphin rush? I gave you 3 other endorphin rushes that involved hunting and killing and want to know why they would be any different.
> 
> You stated we are not above our animal nature as another example that it is acceptable. Oranges and Oranges.


Can I ask you why you're trying to understand?

If something is okay with other people it's often a difficult thing to explain and often just as difficult for other people to understand. Neither one can ever change the mind of the other.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Paumon said:


> Can I ask you why you're trying to understand?
> 
> If something is okay with other people it's often a difficult thing to explain and often just as difficult for other people to understand. Neither one can ever change the mind of the other.


Why would I want to understand anything? Why would I want to know if someone really believes that killing for the sake of killing is acceptable.

Simple answer. I am always trying to increase my knowledge and understanding of the world I live in and the people that inhabit it. I think you are the same or you would not have asked me this question.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Why would I want to understand anything? Why would I want to know if someone really believes that killing for the sake of killing is acceptable.
> 
> Simple answer. I am always trying to increase my knowledge and understanding of the world I live in and the people that inhabit it. I think you are the same or you would not have asked me this question.


Yes, I'm the same for the most part. I have some comments about this need to understand things, and it also (I think) ties in to some extent with this whole role reversal business .... but I have terrible brain fog and slow fingers today and need to formulate my thoughts carefully before I try to type it out .... so I will get back to this shortly.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

She is free to ignore my questions and the examples I pose but she does seem to want to discuss it.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

painterswife said:


> I am simply trying to understand how you can have the opionon that what she is doing is okay because it is an endorphin rush? I gave you 3 other endorphin rushes that involved hunting and killing and want to know why they would be any different.
> 
> You stated we are not above our animal nature as another example that it is acceptable. Oranges and Oranges.


You alter words in phrases and say that's what I said. Words have meaning and word order matters as well. You've altered the orange and made it a tangerine.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Let me do a kind of point by point of this:

1: I don't see what is actually wrong or morally reprehensible about killing an animal that was bred for that purpose. 

2: I also don't see a problem with an admission of enjoying a hunt and a kill. 

3: I see more problem with people who want to deny or completely separate themselves from normal human responses and act like the proverbial ostrich with it's head in the sand.

4: I'm not going to sit in judgement of someone and pretend I have the authority to do so. What ever float's your boat babe, just as long as you don't float it at my dock.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

CraterCove said:


> Sorry, silly issue--- she killed a lion on a reservation that breeds African animals expressly for the purpose of hunting them. Not a problem. In fact if there had been such a breeding and hunting program run for the Black Rhino, perhaps it wouldn't be extinct now.
> 
> Also, Humans are predators. We are designed to take a thrill from our hunt. Bashing evolution/ design seems silly to me. Endorphins are nature's little treat for when we do what it wants us to do, breed, hunt perform social acts etc.


You obviously don't understand how rhinos breed or why they are hunted.


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## Brighton (Apr 14, 2013)

Paumon said:


> I agree. This particular woman describes hereself as a _hardcore _huntress with _deadly passion_ and has plastered pictures of her tank top and bikini clad self all over internet together with scores of dead animals she's killed. In my way of viewing it it's nothing less than legal snuffporn that appeals to the base sexual pleasures of other blood-lust killers like herself and who would likely be killing people as well as animals if it was legal to hunt and kill people.
> 
> Endorphins or not, I personally don't think there's any excuse for wanton killing like this.


She is NOT a hardcore "huntress" she is a killer no less that a murderer, with fake Ta-Ta's and fake piercing blue eyes, she is selling sex and hunting to the average American male, she makes me want to vomit!


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

CraterCove said:


> I'm sure there is quite the thrill of the hunt associated with your examples of a puppy throttling farm? I guess I am just too dumb to understand your point.
> 
> Also, she is in Africa, I am sure she could (for the right price) hunt humans there. It's a pretty frightening place and I question the sanity of anyone who treads in the lands of despotic warlords for 'fun'.


There are plenty of people in the world who get a thrill from torturing animals.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> There are plenty of people in the world who get a thrill from torturing animals.


Is it legal? Does it have the consensus of people where it is done saying,"yeah we accept this behavior." I do wonder, as well, what the actual percentage to population actually take satisfaction, enjoyment or gratification from snuffing out defenseless creatures.

And maybe I am not privy to the specific hows and why and wheres of rhino matings--- why do I think you aren't all that very savvy yourself? Are you a zoologist specializing in such matters? All I know is that the things you subsidize (aka rich hunters paying for particular game) are the things you get more of.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Brighton said:


> She is NOT a hardcore "huntress" she is a killer no less that a murderer, with fake Ta-Ta's and fake piercing blue eyes, she is selling sex and hunting to the average American male, she makes me want to vomit!


So people can be judged by you, weighed and measured and found wanting because they choose to enhance their features surgically? How can murder be applied to a non-human unless every death of every animal, no matter the perceived purpose be considered murder. 

To murder is to kill for your own selfish needs. What is more selfish than the pursuit of life. For you to live others must die. Other animals must die, other life, period must die. For you to live the virus must die, the carrot, the chicken. If you want to apply murder to killing any animal, you are lying to yourself if you do not apply it to all.


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