# Best Breed



## stanley (Aug 22, 2011)

I have a small farm of 30 fenced acres raise sheep goats pigs cows and poultry Most of our preditor problem is foxes racoons possums etc. I picked up a 3 year old GP last spring and am very pleased with his performance in every way except one he is wonderful around the livestock I have not lost any poultry since he came on the scene I just wish he was more aggressive towards humans 
We are starting to get Coyote sightings in the area so I would like to get an additional LGD should I stick with the GP breed or would I be better off with another breed that will be more protective against human intruders but still not bother small livestock


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

You might want to consider Anatolian shepherd dog. They are excellent lgds and tend to be a little better against human predators then great pyrs are.


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

I hope you don't mind my asking as to _why_ you would possibly want your dog to be *more* aggressive to humans? I'm just curious, as I may have missed something and I'm always willing to learn.

I think GPs are more friendly to humans, but there is still a lot of diversity and variation in any breed. http://www.lgd.org/ is a truly good reference.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Any LGD that is overly aggressive to humans becomes a huge responsibility as if he should bite someone...well, do you have an attorney on retainer? Because you'll need one! Usually a show of force, barking, growling, should be enough. Don't push your luck. Or, if you do, be prepared to be there to stop the dog from carrying through on an attack. You really don't need that!

I would suggest you stick with another Pyr from proven working parents. Together dogs often become more bold and assertive and once the pup matures you may find most people would put a gun to their own head rather than step over a fence guarded by two big barking Pyrs..... :thumb:


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## stanley (Aug 22, 2011)

As a matter of fact I do have an Attorney on retainer. My property is fenced and I do not want anyone wondering around if I am not home if I am home I can put the dogs in a separate area to keep them away from visitors I installed my electric meter as well as my internet connection 100 yards away from my house so it will be outside the fence there is no reason for anyone to breach my gate.My German Shepard who passed away at the age of 12 tought several "hunters" what a fence was for and I came home one day to find a carpetbagger on top of my porch railing with a bloddy leg crying for help. He never told me why he ignored the beware of dog and no tresspassing signs. 
My GP barks when he hears a noise but when he sees a human he stops barking starts wagging his tail looking for a pat on the head. He is great around the livestock and will not let even a squirrel in the pasture. He was raised in a commune and tought humans are good 
I am just looking for something that is a little more forcefull about letting humans through the gate


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## stanley (Aug 22, 2011)

Just to add I live in a well populated area once known as the Capital of the Confederacy it is now the murder capital of the south full of two legged predators who are making their living stealing copper and whatever else they can find


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Well depending on which decade of movies you prefer, the dog you need will be a German shepherd, doberman, rottweiler, or pit bull. Take your pick.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Lgds aren't typically used for personal protection, especially the Pyr. If you think about it, that big fluffy white smiley faced dog doesn't look very intimidating either. There was a thread not long ago that advertised another breed of LGD used alternatively for estate and personal protection. You might look into that breed instead. 
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=422579


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Yes get a Boz that way there will be less of the intruder left to sue you and your attorney will have to earn his keep and get creative.

I don't think you really need another LGD you just need a guard dog. I like Ed Norman's idea best.

And honestly that's what guns are for but brandishing can get you some serious jail time so I guess its up to you which way you want to go.....grin.....


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## dizplanner (Jan 1, 2012)

I understand what Stanley is saying. We live on five acres and have two young Maremmas. While they are very loving they have that wolf-look when they see something they think is intrusiv, and are not overly joyed to have an unknown human in their fence. I'm OK with that because in a few years I don't know if I will have to protect my entire property more..not just the livestock. Not sure how their personality will be as they get older..they will probably mellow from puppy excitement but for now they have energy with that lgd protectiveness. I would suggest reading one of the lgd general articles that others have posted. They have great info on many breeds. You will find one that suits you. Good luck.


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## siberian (Aug 23, 2011)

hey Ed, dont forget the Bosten Bull Terrior, back in the 30's they had their heyday


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

siberian said:


> hey Ed, dont forget the Bosten Bull Terrior, back in the 30's they had their heyday


Is that the bulldog with the New York accent that was in the Tom and Jerry and Looney Tunes cartoons?


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

I just cringe when someone says they want a dog to be aggressive to people. I don't have what I would call 'people aggressive' LGD's but let me tell you no one in their right mind would come in here. They get their point across just fine without getting me in a lawsuit, thank you......


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

dizplanner said:


> I understand what Stanley is saying. We live on five acres and have two young Maremmas. While they are very loving they have that wolf-look when they see something they think is intrusiv, and are not overly joyed to have an unknown human in their fence. I'm OK with that because in a few years I don't know if I will have to protect my entire property more..not just the livestock. Not sure how their personality will be as they get older..they will probably mellow from puppy excitement but for now they have energy with that lgd protectiveness. I would suggest reading one of the lgd general articles that others have posted. They have great info on many breeds. You will find one that suits you. Good luck.


I also have maremmas, a yr old. I dont think anyone that dosent raise dogs would come into the yard. And I say "raise" because people who are familar with a dogs behavior can figure out if they will bite you or not. My friend that raises hunting dogs saw the signs that they would not actully bite them and she hung out by the fence driving them nuts while letting them place their teeth on her hand, at first she was unsure but they finally settled down and she came into the paddock. But they still ran around her barking until they seen that I was relaxed and it was okay . They are aggressive towards unknown people until I tell them it's okay (sometimes). Even then they will bark with their tail waggin. And make you think they are gonna rip you a new one.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I understand what Stanley is saying. He's not looking for an attack trained LGD, he's simply looking for one that isn't readily accepting of strangers and will bark at one if he shows up. Great Pyrs are not so good at this, but there are dogs that are fine for this. Anatolians and Kangal dogs tend to be a little less accepting of strangers. If you want to go up a notch, look at Central Asian Mountain Dog or Caucasian Shepherd.


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

I also understand Stanley's problem; I think he simply doesn't wants an intruder to come in with bad intentions and for his dog to do nothing.
I would suggest a Caucasian Ovcharka (Shepherd) would be a good pick as they react to strangers the same way they'd react to a pack of wolves.
They are for experienced dog owners only as they tend to become uncontrollable if not socialized properly. 
And they do test their owners to see if their owners are a real alpha until they're around 2 years old, as they mature slowly.
Males take 3 years to mature.
However a Caucasian Ovcharka will start guarding anywhere between 6 and 8 months of age.
In my opinion any CO that doesn't guards by the time he or she is 10-12 months old has the wrong temperament.
Which brings us to the problem of actually finding a good CO breeder, as the ones located in U.S. seem to be mostly breeding them for dog shows sadly.
I'd also like to add that Caucasian Ovcharka's are incredibly loyal and loving towards their owners. These dogs should never be punished physically if they do something wrong, as they never forget it.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

BarbadosSheep said:


> You might want to consider Anatolian shepherd dog. They are excellent lgds and tend to be a little better against human predators then great pyrs are.


Agreed..but don't discount your Pyr completly OP..While they may come across kinda placid and the "least" human aggressive of the LGD breeds..I wouldnt doubt my Angel would do her job to a human intruder.

Friend of mine has a Pyr..a housepet and this dog is a guard dog extrodinaire..she said she caught her chasing someone out of her backyard the other day.

I know Angel is VERY wary of strange men..I've watched her eyeball them if they are on our place. Shes not "aggressive"..but she has this cool, collected, calculating look to her face like.."Buddy, I dont know ya..but I am going to keep my eye on you..don't try any funny business.."


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

I fully understand Stanley's concern. I have actually been thinking the same thing. About two weeks ago I had a woman pull up in her truck while I was out feeding. She hopped right out of the truck and walked into the barn where I was like she knew us. Only one bark from our pyr and then all wagging tail and smiles. As I asked if I could help her the woman proceeds to tell me how much she enjoys my animals and has been out to my place several times while I wasn't home. She even told me how she has gotten out of her truck on these past occasions and had a wonderful time petting the dogs and the goats, but my big grey horse wouldn't let her pet him. She talked about walking around my garden and asked what all I was growing. This had me a little flipped out, but then she asked if we had any animals that we wanted to give away. I told her not at the moment and I usually sold any extras that we didn't need. Then a few days ago I came home and found a large box on my back porch by the sliding glass door full of children's clothes. I called everyone I knew and asked if they left them there, everyone said no. The only thing that I can think of is that this woman came by and left them there. Once again, getting out of her truck and walking around my yard to leave them. Needless to say I don't like her wandering my property when I am not here. She even comes through my gate at the end of the driveway feeling free to get out of her truck and open it. She's probably harmless, but still...you just don't do that. We are getting a lock for the gate and actually will be changing the gate to one that couldn't be crawled through by a person wanting to come and pet the animals. I would like to have an LGD that was not necessarily aggressive towards people but more wary of strangers and would make someone think twice about getting out of their car and wandering around my barn, garden and pastures. My pyr is simply way too people friendly and while I have no doubt that no 4 legged critter would harm or walk off with her stock, I have every reason to believe that someone could show up here and load all the stock on a trailer and she would wag her tail and smile the whole time. Blessings, Kat


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

Whisperwindkat said:


> I fully understand Stanley's concern. I have actually been thinking the same thing. About two weeks ago I had a woman pull up in her truck while I was out feeding. She hopped right out of the truck and walked into the barn where I was like she knew us. Only one bark from our pyr and then all wagging tail and smiles. As I asked if I could help her the woman proceeds to tell me how much she enjoys my animals and has been out to my place several times while I wasn't home. She even told me how she has gotten out of her truck on these past occasions and had a wonderful time petting the dogs and the goats, but my big grey horse wouldn't let her pet him. She talked about walking around my garden and asked what all I was growing. This had me a little flipped out, but then she asked if we had any animals that we wanted to give away. I told her not at the moment and I usually sold any extras that we didn't need. Then a few days ago I came home and found a large box on my back porch by the sliding glass door full of children's clothes. I called everyone I knew and asked if they left them there, everyone said no. The only thing that I can think of is that this woman came by and left them there. Once again, getting out of her truck and walking around my yard to leave them. Needless to say I don't like her wandering my property when I am not here. She even comes through my gate at the end of the driveway feeling free to get out of her truck and open it. She's probably harmless, but still...you just don't do that. We are getting a lock for the gate and actually will be changing the gate to one that couldn't be crawled through by a person wanting to come and pet the animals. I would like to have an LGD that was not necessarily aggressive towards people but more wary of strangers and would make someone think twice about getting out of their car and wandering around my barn, garden and pastures. My pyr is simply way too people friendly and while I have no doubt that no 4 legged critter would harm or walk off with her stock, I have every reason to believe that someone could show up here and load all the stock on a trailer and she would wag her tail and smile the whole time. Blessings, Kat


Did you say anything to this woman? I just could not imagine anyone thinking that was okay. I mean seriously! I would be livid. She might be harmless but she might come back and help herself and think nothing of it because you have so many so probably wouldn't mind.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

LGDs are not cure alls.
They are not the magic pill.
Nothing will replace being alert and good stockmanship.

I was waiting for someone to bring this up but since no one has, I will,.

Bottom line, don't expect your LGD to do all of the work. Including myself here too in this: how many of us spend time on computer Internet forums when we maybe should be out there backing up our dogs, checking our stock, keeping eyes peeled out and also having PRESENCE amongst our flock/herd etc. more than we have been.

How many of us could stand to be more assertive and maybe take shooting lessons / buy a firearm / practice responsible firearm ownership and just be outside and watching what the heck's going on more. Don't put the whole load on your dogs. Don't ask them to do your dirty work.

Sometimes I think some people expect perfection from LGDs from day one, and are disappointed if they don't do the wash, change the tires on their truck and pay their bills for them.


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

What about a Mongolian Bankhar? 
We have had a number of Pyrs and have had good luck with them and the animals.... for the most part. Then we found these dogs and have never looked back.

http://www.mongoldog.ru/standart_eng.php

http://www.mongoliatoday.com/issue/8/dog_intro.html


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

I totally agree with DaniR1968....what that woman did is really not cool. Makes you wonder just how many other people have done the same thing and never said anything to Whisperwindkat.
I hope that when Whisperwindkat changes the gate this issue will stop. 
That's why it's so important to have good fences. 6ft tall if possible..
And of course a more protective LGD, I mean towards strangers that is.

@ Astrid: I see they are very similar to Tibetan Mastiff, perhaps just a sub-type of the Tibetan Mastiff?
From what I've been told, Tibetan Mastiffs are excellent protectors and there are a lot of TM breeders in U.S.
Of course some breeders are trying to soften their characters just so they can sell more dogs to inexperienced people, but if one can find a good breeder, Tibetan Mastiffs make wonderful guard dogs.
And they could be very good livestock guardians, if they come from working parents and if the puppies are raised around livestock of course.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

Goatress said:


> LGDs are not cure alls.
> They are not the magic pill.
> Nothing will replace being alert and good stockmanship.
> 
> ...


Spot on..

I wouldnt expect my dogs to do my dirty work..they are the first line of defense..I am the LAST...if you get my drift..


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

Whisperwindkat said:


> I fully understand Stanley's concern. I have actually been thinking the same thing. About two weeks ago I had a woman pull up in her truck while I was out feeding. She hopped right out of the truck and walked into the barn where I was like she knew us. Only one bark from our pyr and then all wagging tail and smiles. As I asked if I could help her the woman proceeds to tell me how much she enjoys my animals and has been out to my place several times while I wasn't home. She even told me how she has gotten out of her truck on these past occasions and had a wonderful time petting the dogs and the goats, but my big grey horse wouldn't let her pet him. She talked about walking around my garden and asked what all I was growing. This had me a little flipped out, but then she asked if we had any animals that we wanted to give away. I told her not at the moment and I usually sold any extras that we didn't need. Then a few days ago I came home and found a large box on my back porch by the sliding glass door full of children's clothes. I called everyone I knew and asked if they left them there, everyone said no. The only thing that I can think of is that this woman came by and left them there. Once again, getting out of her truck and walking around my yard to leave them. Needless to say I don't like her wandering my property when I am not here. She even comes through my gate at the end of the driveway feeling free to get out of her truck and open it. She's probably harmless, but still...you just don't do that. We are getting a lock for the gate and actually will be changing the gate to one that couldn't be crawled through by a person wanting to come and pet the animals. I would like to have an LGD that was not necessarily aggressive towards people but more wary of strangers and would make someone think twice about getting out of their car and wandering around my barn, garden and pastures. My pyr is simply way too people friendly and while I have no doubt that no 4 legged critter would harm or walk off with her stock, I have every reason to believe that someone could show up here and load all the stock on a trailer and she would wag her tail and smile the whole time. Blessings, Kat


On the other hand, having a dog aggressive enough toward strangers that it may have bitten this woman, regardless of how clueless she obviously is, wouldn't necessarily be good either. It's a tough balance. 

Personally, I want a dog whose look is intimidating enough to give a stranger pause, will alert me to any stranger's presence, be legitimately protective in a bad situation, but is not on such a hair-trigger that that I have to be worried about it biting a utility worker, emergency responder, the UPS guy or the neighbor's kid. 

It's a tall order - one I'm not sure is even possible in one dog. The other thing is that your dog might respond differently depending on the circumstances.

My Kangal/Mastiff cross is also all wiggly and sweetness whenever she sees any of the neighbors, but one night she started barking from our porch rail at one of the neighbor's houses like I'd never heard (she likes to walk on top of the railing around the porch for the best view over our fence). Found out the next day that some new people had just moved in and, apparently, she recognized that they didn't belong there. Surprised the heck out me for such an otherwise good-natured and friendly dog. She'll occasionally do the same thing on walks - single out one person out of 20 that she gets a bad feeling from. At this point I'm learning to trust her instincts more than my own!


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

@ spinandslide: I completely agree with you, but sometimes people have to go away from their property for hours and it's always good to know that your dog can scare off unwanted human intruders.
Dogs are no match against guns and professional, organized burglars with a plan of course, but at least they can scare off common thieves


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

Well, I certainly don't expect my dogs to do my job. However, I do expect them to do theirs. I don't feel like welcoming strangers with open arms and inviting them in is their job. That would be my job. Their job is to wait until I tell them that it is ok to invite the person in. When I am home and out an about I am armed, always. Since we have had issues with burglary around here and the "scout" is a woman this particular incident really put me on notice, especially when my dog didn't even ask any questions. I don't want a hair trigger dog, but I do want one that doesn't invite every Tom, Dick and Harry to tea. As far as getting bitten...someone coming through a chained gate an nosing around my property should be asking for trouble and I know my sheriff's department agrees. I can't stay home all the time although I am home more often than not. I do have to go inside the house at some point. I spent most of my day outside, but at some point I need to eat, shower, sleep, and take care of the family things. At some point during the day I am at the back barn and from their I can't see the driveway nor can I always hear someone pull up. It would be nice if the dog would let me know that someone she doesn't know is here. Anyway, I told this woman that I didn't appreciate her coming around when I wasn't home. Then the box of clothes showed up on my back porch. So apparently she doesn't care, is stupid or is the scout for the gang going around robbing homes. Apparently that woman is really bold also from what I have been told by neighbors that she has "visited". Anyway, just my two cents.


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## Hespa (Sep 28, 2011)

Citxmech said it really well with this description "Personally, I want a dog whose look is intimidating enough to give a stranger pause, will alert me to any stranger's presence, be legitimately protective in a bad situation, but is not on such a hair-trigger that that I have to be worried about it biting a utility worker, emergency responder, the UPS guy or the neighbor's kid." 

My husband really liked this comment. What breed of dog best fits this description? I am also researching dogs for the time our Bernese is no longer with us. He is a terrific dog. If all Bernese are like him, he fits this above description to a "T'. This is our first Bernese and he will be seven in April. Last winter, we wondered if it would be his last but he has been really good since then.


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

Whisperwindkat said:


> Well, I certainly don't expect my dogs to do my job. However, I do expect them to do theirs. I don't feel like welcoming strangers with open arms and inviting them in is their job. That would be my job. Their job is to wait until I tell them that it is ok to invite the person in. When I am home and out an about I am armed, always. Since we have had issues with burglary around here and the "scout" is a woman this particular incident really put me on notice, especially when my dog didn't even ask any questions. I don't want a hair trigger dog, but I do want one that doesn't invite every Tom, Dick and Harry to tea. As far as getting bitten...someone coming through a chained gate an nosing around my property should be asking for trouble and I know my sheriff's department agrees. I can't stay home all the time although I am home more often than not. I do have to go inside the house at some point. I spent most of my day outside, but at some point I need to eat, shower, sleep, and take care of the family things. At some point during the day I am at the back barn and from their I can't see the driveway nor can I always hear someone pull up. It would be nice if the dog would let me know that someone she doesn't know is here. Anyway, I told this woman that I didn't appreciate her coming around when I wasn't home. Then the box of clothes showed up on my back porch. So apparently she doesn't care, is stupid or is the scout for the gang going around robbing homes. Apparently that woman is really bold also from what I have been told by neighbors that she has "visited". Anyway, just my two cents.


In my jurisdiction, even if my dog bites someone in the act of trespassing, it's not an absolute defense against my liability (or the dog's action). Here, we need to post both "Beware of Dog" signs _and_ "No Trespassing" signs, to create a presumption that the intruder should have known better.

Having just had someone break into and go through our car the other night, I'm certainly sympathetic to the idea of wanting my dog to be both an alarm system and a serious deterrent - it's just that the other side of the coin is having to defend a lawsuit after some neighbor's toddler gets bit reaching through your fence to "pet the doggie," and then having to fight to keep your dog from getting put-down. 

Obviously, the balance you strike is up to you, but I do suggest researching the legal ramifications if your dog does bite someone so you can CYA legally.


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

I have tried to stay out of this thread, as I do not want people to think that I am trying to promote the Boz as an aggressive to human breed of LGD.

Actually, I work to have my LGDs accept people. I bring dog treats to have the visitors feed to my dogs when they visit. Otherwise, "No People" would be allowed on my property. I would rather risk some funny business, than have an incident that was unwarrented.

But correct, the Turkish breeds like anatolian, Kangal, Boz are more likely to keep persons off your property. The Boz more than the Kangal.

I can take my Boz into crowded places in town, around crowds of strangers. They are watchfull, but very polite and friendly. But I have no doubt in my mind that they would have my back if anyone would act aggressively. At home, they are very defensive, but settle when I show them that the people are OK. But if I am not home,,,, they will not get out of the car, or roll down the window.

I do agree with Goatress in that extreme caution should be taken. The posibilities are extreme.
IN NO WAY, should any encouragement be given to teach human aggression with such a powerful breed. Would be like training a pet tiger to attack people. Not Good!!!

The LGDs are very intelligent, and will be able to read people, and decide what needs to be repelled. My dogs will accept people after an introduction, but if they stray from the narrow expected behaviors, the dogs will stop them. Usually from blocking their path, or a low growl for the people that do not read their first communication. 

Just be careful with the LGDs, as all we need is some bad publicity and some city mentality placing bans on them.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

MonsterMalak said:


> I have tried to stay out of this thread, as I do not want people to think that I am trying to promote the Boz as an aggressive to human breed of LGD.
> 
> Actually, I work to have my LGDs accept people. I bring dog treats to have the visitors feed to my dogs when they visit. Otherwise, "No People" would be allowed on my property. I would rather risk some funny business, than have an incident that was unwarrented.
> 
> ...


Given this statement, I am very curious why then you are training your Boz for bite work (attack training) as you showed on the LGD forum? From the moment I saw you doing that, I felt it was a VERY foolish and dangerous thing to do. I left that forum largely because of it; I was astonished that threads like that would even be allowed to exist due to the possible liability of encouraging folks to do the same. NO LGD breed should EVER be taught to attack on command. These dogs have a mind of their own. Teach them that it's OK to bite people when you tell them to, and one day they will do it on their own because they think it's an acceptable thing to do to folks who they feel threaten them.


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

I don't think that either I or the OP really want an aggressive toward human dog. I think what both of us were trying to get across is that no one is the least bit concerned about stepping out of their vehicles upon seeing the large white happy beasts. Our dogs are extraordinarily people friendly and strangers are not wary of them in the least. Being in the middle of nowhere with no close neighbors, this has me concerned. Especially since I have already had one person admit that they have been tromping around my property several times when no one was here. To me having a stranger wandering my pastures messing with my livestock is more of a liability since my stallion doesn't like people he doesn't know than a dog that might bite someone that was trying to steal their goats. Instead my GP escorts them around the property and allows them access and petting privileges to said goats. I guess what I am looking for is another Rhodesian Ridgeback. My previous Rhodies would stop any stranger from getting out of their vehicle simply by blocking the vehicle door. Then when I approached and told them it was ok, they went back to their spot on the porch. I don't like total strangers surprising me in my barn as they walk in like they know the place. I stay armed on a regular basis. It isn't a good thing to sneak up on me. I don't think either Stanley or I want a dog that is vicious or trained for guard and attack work. All we simply want is for a dog to not be as friendly and "how do you do" as our GPs are. Thanks, Kat


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

I am not an expert but I do have experience with several LGD breeds and other molossers so when I read your description I had to think of a Sarplaninac or a Tornjak. 
Earlier in this topic I did recommend a Caucasian Ovcharka to the OP, because it seemed to me he wanted a dog that could be effective against burglars and good with livestock.
But since that breed can often be very human aggressive on their own territory without ever anyone teaching them to (I have one myself), it's not a good breed for people who don't have a very secure fence and have guests come over often. 

It's typical for a Sarplaninac or a Tornjak to try and scare people off with their bark and normally these 2 breeds wouldn't bite people unless those people try to actually steal something or attack the owner.
There are several excellent Sarplaninac breeders here in U.S. not sure about the Tornjak though.
These breeders could explain to you better what I mean by saying that a Sarplaninac and Tornjak will not bite unless it's necessary.
And those 2 breeds are still very actively used as LGD's in their native countries.

But like I said, I'm not an expert


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

Thank you Grazer.


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

You're welcome  Good luck and I'm sure you'll eventually find the right breed and the right puppy for you


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

> Barbado Sheep wrote,,,,,Given this statement, I am very curious why then you are training your Boz for bite work (attack training) as you showed on the LGD forum? From the moment I saw you doing that, I felt it was a VERY foolish and dangerous thing to do. I left that forum largely because of it; I was astonished that threads like that would even be allowed to exist due to the possible liability of encouraging folks to do the same. NO LGD breed should EVER be taught to attack on command. These dogs have a mind of their own. Teach them that it's OK to bite people when you tell them to, and one day they will do it on their own because they think it's an acceptable thing to do to folks who they feel threaten them.


Barbado Sheep, 

Firstly,,,, What I was showing on the LGD forum, and my website is a Temperament testing. This was their first encounter, and also their last. It was an evaluation on that line of potential work. If or when I do have a dog trained for protection work, the dog would be contained, and not have uncontrolled access to the public.

I also have Trainers from the Border Patrol to the Army and Homeland Security looking to train and evaluate the Boz for Protection and defense. So if they could some day function to protect our Agents and Soldiers, would it have been prudent to limit their function to just LGDs.

I wish you would refrain from making harsh statements, considering your limited experience with LGDs. Not every LGD has the same range of functions, temperament, personality, capabilities or limitations. The few months you have owned your two pups gives you experience with the one breed, and only at their young age.

I do agree with you that the LGD has an independent mode of thinking. The Boz included. But the Boz have also shown their ability to be trained and controled. The Boz are also a more multifunctional type of dog. Case and point, name another LGD that can be used to hunt Wild Boar and other game, and also fully function as a LGD for a varied assortment of livestock. 

In most areas of the world that developed LGDs, the historical use also included hunting, guarding, and defense from invaders or thieves. This was very much the case in Turkey where your dogs come from. I support the well rounded utilization and function in a single dog. Keeping a good balance.

I also would not ever support the use of a LGD to be kept in any situation with access to the public if they had been trained as a Protection Dog. Because the Boz are a functioning LGD, should not prevent their utilization in other areas of work. 

Protection Trained dogs should be fully trained with regards to obedience and control prior to any training on bitework. And even if they are fully trained, they should always be contained and controlled.

I wish not to get into a trading of insults or harsh statements. The forums are for trading knowledge.


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## Hespa (Sep 28, 2011)

I have also come across the Tornjak breed and have thought they would be the type of dog for what I and the original poster would find to meet our desires. Does anyone know of breeders in the US? What is it like to import a puppy? Anyone have experience with importation?


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Monster, I was not attacking you.....i was asking a simple and valid question. Your photos showed one of your dogs on leash going after a guy in a sleeve. That sure sounds like allowing bite work to me. How is stating what I saw on the other board a harsh statement? And true....I do not have a long history with LGD breeds, but every single thing I have ever read about them (especially the turkish ones) state to NEVER use them for bite work EVER because they are not 100% controllable. That's all I was saying and trying to point out.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> Monster, I was not attacking you.....i was asking a simple and valid question. Your photos showed one of your dogs on leash going after a guy in a sleeve. That sure sounds like allowing bite work to me. How is stating what I saw on the other board a harsh statement? And true....I do not have a long history with LGD breeds, but every single thing I have ever read about them (especially the turkish ones) state to NEVER use them for bite work EVER because they are not 100% controllable. That's all I was saying and trying to point out.


I thought it all seemed contradictory too. http://www.monstermalak.com/
http://www.monstermalak.com/Protection_Potential.php


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

I am sorry for not making my original statement clear as to my intentions.

What I was saying is that a LGD, as in any dog "Working as a LGD" should never be trained in Protection Work.

As far as the historical function of many of the LGD breeds, many have been also used for guarding the home, business or village.
In Turkey, this has also been the function. The Kangal has even been used by the Military and Police for protection work. Their main failing was that the dogs bonded to the trainers, that would be rotated out every 1.5 years. I understand your concern with the matter, as there is much contradictory information on the internet. 

I would agree that they are not as receptive to command training, so should only be Protection Trained by a Professional. Also, as on my website, I have many warnings and cautions with regards to protection training, socialization and saftey.

And as I have stated numerous times, any LGD with even the slight posibility to have exposure to the public needs to be socialized to accept people.

And LGD or Other breed Trained in Protection Work, should never have access to the public unless under the control of the trainer. 

Sorry for not clarifing between a dog utilized as a LGD, and a dog that is a LGD breed.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

The problem is that when you promote this type of training for any of the LGD breeds, the wrong class of people decide to get them as the new macho dog and begin breeding them for bad temperment. The photos you have on your web site will encourage the worst of society to latch on to this new breed of killing machine. In my opinion (and this opinion is shared by responsible dog trainers) that the only breeds that should ever be used for bite work are breeds that ARE receptive to command training. The LGD breeds are not (by your own admission). Therefore, to teach these dogs that it is ever OK to bite a human is very, very dangerous. I know I would not let one of these attack trained LGDs anywhere near MY kids.


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

Like I said before, I do understand your concerns.

I also have turned away many people wanting to buy pups for this same reason.
My website is full of need for responsible ownership, training and socialization.

What I have said previously though, is that professional trainers have shown to be able to gain the level of control and training to function as a protection dog.

I share your concern as a parent, and I to would not want my children around a trained protection dog that was unfamiliar to them. Nor would I let a trained dog around unfamiliar children.

Thank you for your opinions.


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

I'm going to weigh-in on the side of avoiding serious protection training for LGDs. Military/Police dogs are used as tool in situations where there is back-up, and the decision regarding who is a threat, when, and for how long is made for the dog. LGDs have been bread to inherently evaluate situations for themselves. This creates an inherently dangerous situation as noted by previous posters. 

Here's a good example of the kind of focus on the handler that is desired in a protection dog: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em57CqUZ2bE[/ame] 

I seriously doubt a handler could _ever_ achieve that kind of control with a LGD. 

There's a reason why you never see LGDs in Schutzhund or any of the Ringsports. 

http://www.flockguard.org/trainprotection.htm has a pretty good summary of some of the pros/cons of this type of training for LGDs.


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

I would never expect the Boz, any LGD or Molosser type of dog to excel at the sport type of protection work. But I do feel many of the breeds could function to some degree as protection dogs.

It has been and is ONLY my intent to have some trained and tested for this potential. In no way am I marketing them for this. I have turned away many people that lack the degree of training and experience to be able to proceed in a safe manner. With most of these trainers, possibly a year of intense training and control will be accomplished prior to any introduction to bite work. If the training and control are not achieved, bite work would not be started.

In some areas of law enforcement, border security, military or etc,,, a dog like the Boz could fill a void that might help secure our country or give added safety to our men.
My efforts are only to see if they could function.

Had I asked the group if they thought a LGD would be a good dog to hunt Wild Boar, would you have expected me to have gotten a positive response?
And to many peoples surprise, they function well. As they have done in Turkey, along with protection work.

The protection work testing will be done in controlled professional settings.
Just to evaluate the potential


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

The testing might be done in a controlled professional setting, but the dog has still been taught that it's OK to attack people. And that lesson that you are teaching them will last long after the controlled setting has been removed and you are taking these dogs out in public among other people's children. There are already plenty of appropriate breeds to help secure our country. The LGD breeds are not appropriate for this roll.


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

Barbados, I am not testing or training any of my dogs......

Puppies are being placed with professional trainers where they will be trained for a year or more before any bitework will be started. The controlled setting is that they will live with this professional trainer, and be secure from the public. Your kids are safe!!!!!!!!


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

First you state &#8220;IN NO WAY, should any encouragement be given to teach human aggression with such a powerful breed. Would be like training a pet tiger to attack people. Not Good!!!&#8221; But then you say it&#8217;s OK to, as long as they are not being used as LGD. First you say &#8220;This was their first encounter, and also their last. It was an evaluation on that line of potential work.&#8221; And then you say &#8220;I am not testing or training any of my dogs......Puppies are being placed with professional trainers where they will be trained for a year or more before any bitework will be started&#8221; Although your picture clearly shows a dog being taught bite work without this year or so of prior training. You have contradicted yourself quite a number of times in this thread. 

Why on earth would anyone want a 150+ pound dog that is capable of such violence against humans is beyond me. I do know that the kennel where your dogs came from use these dogs for fighting and aggression all the time and judging from his youtube videos and facebook page, he is quite proud of his dog's aggressive nature. I would never want these genetics anywhere near my farm or family. Do as you please with your dogs but you really need to stop promoting them as the perfect family guardian if you are also promoting them as the perfect fighting machine. They can't be both.


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

The modern Caucasian Ovcharka's have been used successfully by the Soviet military and police. And they are still being used by the Russian and Ukrainian military and police officers.
Some of prisons in Russia use CO's as guard dogs
They are using the CO both as attack dog and guard dog.
The people who are training CO's for Ukrainian police do have their own website, but I won't post it on here. It's not that important.

Anyway, those CO's never end up being used as LGD's nor their puppies. Instead they are being promoted as family and property guardians.
The aboriginal CO's on the other hand are still being used as LGD's in the mountains of Caucasus and those CO's are less human aggressive.
They have that more typical LGD temperament.

The Serbian military has also used certain Sarplaninac dogs successfully as guard and attack dogs for a few decades now. Maybe a little more.
But those lines never end up being used as LGD's either.

So LGD's can be used successfully as military dogs, but they do not let go of their victim easily and they get attached to just 1 owner.
So basically they're mostly just used as guard dogs.
I believe there's the same issue with Bullmastiffs as police dogs.

LGD's can and have been successfully used as protection dogs, but after that those LGD lines can not be used as working livestock guardian dogs anymore. At least not on the public land or on any place without large strong fences for that matter.


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

Barbados,,,, Once again I have been brought to the realization that no amount if information, discussion or politeness could ever satisfy you. 
When my words are being picked apart and selectively read, no amount of discussion would ever make a difference with you. 

Again,,,,,,, my dogs were temperament tested. One time. I have no plans on doing this again. It was to evaluate the breed. Please reread if needed.

I would have to agree with Grazer. LGDs working at protection should either not be bred, or selection should not be for aggression. 

Also, the trait that would be beneficial in protection work with them would actually be control, defensive drive, and propensity to obey commands. Not aggression, unless wrongly selected for that. They have a defense drive that makes them want to defend you. Not doing it out of a prey drive aggression.

Also, when the dogs are fought in Turkey, as most are... They are actually fighting to defend their owner. Most dogs will only defend themselves or refuse to fight if their owner is not present. It is actually not allowed to bring a child from the owners family to the fight. Considered a unfair advantage.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Grazer said:


> LGD's can and have been successfully used as protection dogs, but after that those LGD lines can not be used as working livestock guardian dogs anymore. At least not on the public land or on any place without large strong fences for that matter.


 This is it exactly. I don't think people are worried or care about mixing lines in the US. These same lines that are promoted for attack work are also being promoted for lgds. A few generations down the road you might have pups bred for attack work ending up on a farm because of the lgd label or breed.


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

Note: This post is in no way directed at MonsterMalak. I have no experience with the Turkish Boz and, therefore, have no opinion on itâs biddability or suitability for protection work. 

I think the key to evaluating ANY dog for its suitability to bite work is understanding the drive you will be harnessing. Dogs will bite when they are fearful or their prey drive is activated. Activating a dog's defensive drive will not lead directly or reliably to an attack. Hence the LGDâs propensity to bark an alarm first, not to charge right in.

In the old days, protection work was typically motivated by stress avoidance. This created a number of distrustful, fear-motivated dogs that had to be kenneled when not working and also resulted in high washout rates. IMHO, any dog that bites out of fear should never be trained to bite, especially a dog that will be around family members or the public. Random events can set-off a fearful biter and instigate an attack. This could be from a car backfiring, somebody stepping on a paw, or a bag blowing in the wind. Not what you want in animal near your family or the general public. As mentioned before, reliability in calling a dog off the bite is probably the most important ability a handler can have in a bite-trained dog â and one where a LGD is never going to be as reliable as the established protection breeds. This is a huge issue. 

Harnessing prey drive is desirable for bite work because it enables you to train the dog positively and channel enthusiastic engagement naturally. Watch a protection sport dog tug and you can see it is having a blast.

While LGDs may love to tug â this does not necessarily transfer well to serious bite work as their lower prey drive and high defensive drive is at odds with what the handler really wants â charging ahead on command rather than a measured assessment. IMHO, anyone attempting to turn âtugâ into a bite work game with a LGD by wearing a sleeve is asking for dominance issues and the possibility that the dog will lunge for your, or somebody else's arm if gets in the mood to âplayâ or the person unintentionally send a signal that biting is being encouraged. âTestingâ your LGDâs protective instincts by having someone taunt it or by staging a simulated break-in is also potentially dangerous for everyone involved.

Basically, what makes a good protection or estate guardian dog is at odds with what makes a good livestock guardian. Dogo Agentinos, which are highly regarded as some of the best estate guardians available, are a perfect example: What makes them good in this role are their territorial nature, devotion to their people, coupled with a very high prey drive. IMO, bite training a LGD is similar to attempting to train a Dogo for livestock work â you would be fighting the animal's nature and are going to end up spending way more time trying to mold the animal into a role it is not suited for and likely end up with an unreliable animal.


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

wendle said:


> This is it exactly. I don't think people are worried or care about mixing lines in the US. These same lines that are promoted for attack work are also being promoted for lgds. A few generations down the road you might have pups bred for attack work ending up on a farm because of the lgd label or breed.



That's how I feel about it as well.
Take my favorite breed for instance... the CO; the modern Caucasian Ovcharka that was developed by Russian military from different subtypes of the aboriginal CO's are not suited as LGD's in the traditional way.
Not because they won't bond with the flock, but simply because some lines tend to be very human aggressive and will try to take out any stranger.
Which is a great risk for someone with a flock and no adequate fencing. 
150 + pound LGD trained to attack people is a huge danger to everyone living close to that backyard, because of their strong territory instinct and their independent thinking.
They're better suited as property and family guardians. But naturally only for experienced dog owners.
That's just my opinion of course.

On another note, LGD's as military and prison guard dogs in Russia, Ukraine etc are trained differently than say a German Shepherd or a Belgian Malinois.
These people have worked with CO and CAO for decades, so they know what they're doing. 

In U.S. CO breeders are either promoting CO's as a dog with a stopping power of a 45. caliber gun or as a family and therapy dog; so their dogs are either too soft (so they can bring them on dog shows) or too aggressive.
Both statements are incredibly wrong and that's why I'd never recommend a CO breeder from U.S.


So personally I think that LGD lines which are trained for military and guard work should never be used for livestock guarding purposes.


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

From what I have read, the Co from the Russian Military and prisions are some beast.
It would scare me to own such dogs. But as stated before, I also do not agree with breeding for aggression. And especially in selling those dogs to the public.

The female on my site shown doing the Temperament testing was to tough of a dog for my liking. I would not feel safe in selling her or her pups to most people. Because of this, I sent her back to Europe, as the oportunity presented. 

I am in no way trying to make the Boz a "45 caliber dog", my wishes are quite the oposite. But I have had numerous trainers from different agencies and departments inquire about trying them out. 

Trainers wanting a dog that can work in 100 degree heat wearing kevlar vest, a dog that can take a bullet to the vest from the Cartell's drug runners and not fold. A dog that can take down a target and not get stabbed to death as happens to some of their dogs. A dog that can elicit enough intimidation to evoke a surrender. A dog that can act as an escort while traveling through hostile territory, and is independent and intelligent enough to recognize a real threat and alert.

The end result with the training and testing may lie somewhere with a dog that is only safe or capable with a limited function, like an alert dog. They may excell with a full fledged "manstopper" that many are looking for. I do not know. But I feel that if these professional trainers are wanting and willing to invest a year or more to find out, they must see some potential in them. Obviously there are some voids causing the trainers to search out new breeds.

I have not agreed to sell or place a puppy with any trainers without professional training experience such as the Airforce, Army, Police, and Border Patrol. 

And in regards to The comment about the breeder in Turkey breeding a "viscious fighting dog". The culture in Turkey is quite different than ours. The Turks have fought dogs for milinea as a tool of selection. This breeder is also a preservationist of the Boz, Kangal and Tazi. He has over 200 Boz placed with Turkish Shepherds for the purpose of breeding, testing, selection and also to help reestablish the prior quality of LGD that was lost. In the shepherds care, the dogs are worked hard, exposed to harsh environmental extremes, likely raised on a poor traditional diet and selected under the conditions that developed the breed in the first place. I feel it is a monumental effort to preserve and perpetuate a breed. Far from a man breeding "Aggressive Fighting Dogs".

I also wish that this forum would stay peaceful, and remain a place to share and learn.


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

Just to avoid any misunderstandings, I didn't mean to say anything negative about you or your dogs MonsterMalak.
The "45 caliber dog" was meant for that woman (whose name I will not name on this forum) who is breeding CO and represented them as vicious dogs on NatGeo.
She got a lot of backlash after that episode aired in 2004/2005 and rightfully so.

From what I can tell you are not representing Boz Shepherds in a wrong light nor do you sell your puppies to wrong owners. And I really respect that.
I was just saying that in my opinion it would be good to not have LGD's of any breed from 1 line sold and trained as both personal protection dogs and livestock guardian dogs.
Our modern world is too overpopulated for that. 

I'm completely against dog fights, that's why I was never interested in getting a CAO. Too many CAO's all over the world and especially in former Soviet Union are still being fought to this day. Although some CO lines have been used for dog fights as well to be honest, just not as often.
But I am not going to say anything negative about how the Turkish select the best Kangal, Boz, Malaki etc..because I don't know enough about it.

I understand that you are trying to preserve the Boz and the Kangal and that you are not selling your dogs to inexperienced owners. That's a very good and important thing..


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## siberian (Aug 23, 2011)

I love this place because differant ideas and views may be brought up. I also hope my poor spelling doesn't offend anyone. No way am I an expert, matter of fact for almost a year I have been trying to learn about the various breeds of LGD. My comments are directed more to the idea of bite training, as in monsters and Bsheeps ideas. Please let me know if it makes sense.

Bite traing is done extensivly in many countries. I am lucky enough to have owned a shutzhund ll GS and spent countless hours with her. One of the reasons I liked the training was for the safty of my children. Not so much as in the dog protecting them, but in the fact that dogs that go through this training properly are very well socialized. They are very aware of their surroundings and far less likely to bite impulsivly. 

I also want to thank both of you and others here that agree that proper placement is essential for a dogs home, and some folks (maybe many) need to forget about owning any type of animal, let alone some of these.


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

Graser,,, Please do not think that I was offended by your comment. I just used the 45 caliber as a refrence, as it seems like something that summed it all up. 

I do respect many peoples opinions, as others opinions have at times made me take a second look at how I perceive things.

I was not a dog breeder when I got my first Kangals. When I imported the Boz, it was out of admiration and also the desire to "save" something rare.
I also raise some rare birds that are being killed out in the wild. Just part of who I am.

So the venture from a person that loves a dog to a person trying to breed and introduce a new breed to this country has brought many lessons. Some I wish I could go back and change,,,,, probably like the temperament testing. But I also learned that the breed is capable of many things that are beyond the normal relm of the LGD.

It is with these types of work,,, Hunting Boar, Guarding, Weight Pulling, and LGD that I hope the breed can escape the degredation brought about by the PET INDUSTRY. Lack of selection and true work can degrade a breed quickly. Just look at many of the breeds we have today. I wonder how closely the English Mastiff resembles the dogs of 100-500 years ago. So my thoughs are that with enough varied forms of work, mabey the selection could maintain or improve the genetics. (Short of breeding for Aggression).

If a LGD on a small tract of land with minimal predators is to be bred, my thoughts would be to breed that dog to one that has proven his soundness in some way. Hunting Wild Boar would help rule out structural weaknesses and joint issues. Protecting livestock from packs of wolves would prove temperament, physical soundness, etc.
Weight pulling would help reduce breeding in any bone or skelatal issues. 
Having a dog that guards a family in a measured intelligent manner would show mental soundness. 
And under the right selection, a dog that is able to follow commands, be controled by his trainer, react appropriatly, and guard intelligently may be used to improve a breed.
But a dog selected because he is aggressive to people is nothing but a liability and risk.

Siberian,,, It is nice to have perspectives other than our own. To many people get in the mindset that the way that is familiar to them has to be the best way. I was raised up in Ethiopia, and exposed to many cultures as a child. My father always helped us to absorb the cultures in thought, food, customs and experiences. Thanks Everyone!


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

Yes the biggest danger to all working dog breeds are dog shows, bad breeders and inexperienced dog owners.
I always admire dog breeders who are actually using working dogs for their original purposes and only breed with stable, healthy and even-tempered dogs.
I believe that's what people like for example you and Goatress are doing.

Siberian is so right about schutzhund training done by professionals. 

@ Hespa I don't know of any Tornjak breeders in U.S. but there's this one guy who occasionally has a littler in Canada.
That's his facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=92450762579&v=wall
I don't know if his dogs are any good and I personally would import one from Bosnian and Croatian breeders in Europe (cause they are both Bosnian and Croatian dogs, despite what it says on that facebook page).
But I have no experience with importing dogs from overseas. 
I bought my dog when I was living in Europe and he was flying with us to U.S.

I believe that there are quite a few LGD people on this forum who have imported puppies from overseas, perhaps they could offer some advise?


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