# what do you do when homeschooling becomes agony?



## lonelyfarmgirl

DD hates being homeschooled. (8th BTW) oh does she make waves.
she complains all the time. She takes band at the local school, and says they call her a hs freak (for a lot of reasons I dont believe it though). 
she takes some online classes in addition to what I teach at home. she refuses to accept instruction, instead prefering to go through the books on her own. Problem with that, is she doesnt retain the information, and is constantly scoring non-passing grades. when I say its agony, I am not kidding.

problem being, I dont want her in public school. I dont want her taught evolution, I dont want her to come home full of sugar and chemical food, 
I dont want her spending half the day on worthless curriculum that will get her nowhere.
She cares nothing for her education, she wants social time and admiration.

when we decided to send her to school for band, we did it because she wanted to go so bad, and her general behavior, respect for others, demeanor, attitude, trustworthiness, direction following, follow through-ness, etc. went from pre-puberty tolerable to a nightmare. Its been 2 years, nothings changed.

what do we do? give in and give up, or keep fighting for the next 4 years only to watch her flip the bird and walk?


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## Elffriend

Do you belong to a homeschool support group? Does she have friends who are homeschooled? Are there opportunities within the homeschooling community for her to continue band?

Honestly, if her attitude and grades began slipping when she started going to public school for just one class, I would be tempted to pull her from band. Maybe sit down and have a chat with her. Tell her how disappointed you are in her performance and tell her if she doesn't bring her grades up and change her attitude she will have to quit band.


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## cindy-e

My kids get priveledges because they are respectful, responsible, and trustworthy. If they are not respectful, responsible, and trustworthy, they do not get priveledges. It's pretty well that simple. If she were in my home, band would be over until her grades came up, her attitude changed, and she became somebody I could trust. If she refused to be respectful, responsible, and trustworthy and she was making life miserable for the rest of the family, while she can choose to have a bad attitude, we can choose not to put up with it and she would welcome to stay in her room for as long as she needs to so that she can get over it - days if nesseccary. But she would not be allowed to pout, grump, and otherwise negatively emote all over the house at the expense of the other members of the family. She gets the priveledge of being treated as a member of the family when she starts acting like one. Also, my kids know that I *Will* flunk them if that is what they earn. Can you imagine the embarrassment of being the kid who flunked a grade in homeschool? If they don't earn the grade, they don't get it. The sheer fear of having to tell somebody that they are repeating a grade in homeschool is enough to keep them on task, or straighten them up quickly if they ever sluff off. 
That said, I find none of the above is usually nesseccary when I have them on a regular exercise routine. At that age, they *need* to get active to metabolize some of those hormones!

For what it's worth,
Cindyc.


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## akhomesteader

Cindy, I totally agree with you. Our boys are young, but we are starting out with them as you described above. 

I'd say the band and all other privileges should be a thing of the past, starting immediately, until your daughter changes her ways. Won't be easy. I sure don't envy you. That's a tough age. Best wishes!


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## Laura Zone 5

> DD hates being homeschooled. (8th BTW) oh does she make waves.


What does she 'hate' about it? Why does she hate it? 
Waves? What are waves? Is she grumbly, or does she cause a scene?



> She takes band at the local school, and says they call her a hs freak (for a lot of reasons I dont believe it though).


If she cannot respect you, and your authority, then she doesn't get to go to band. Band is a Privilege not a right.



> she takes some online classes in addition to what I teach at home. she refuses to accept instruction, instead prefering to go through the books on her own. Problem with that, is she doesnt retain the information, and is constantly scoring non-passing grades. when I say its agony, I am not kidding.


What are her swift, uncomfortable, consistent, consequences for such disobedience? What does her father say?



> problem being, I dont want her in public school. I dont want her taught evolution, I dont want her to come home full of sugar and chemical food,
> I dont want her spending half the day on worthless curriculum that will get her nowhere.
> She cares nothing for her education, she wants social time and admiration.


Is she in youth group? This, IMHO is an extension of the public school system. Same types of cliques, same fleshy teens. If she is in youth group, I would pull her out now. This could be the root of the problem. 



> when we decided to send her to school for band, we did it because she wanted to go so bad, and her general behavior, respect for others, demeanor, attitude, trustworthiness, direction following, follow through-ness, etc. went from pre-puberty tolerable to a nightmare. Its been 2 years, nothings changed.


IMHO you have rewarded her poor behavior and encouraged worse.
Time to tighten down. Until she can respect her parents, her siblings and herself.....(if you are Believers, first and foremost respect and reverence for the Lord!) ........she does, nothing.
No, seriously.
Nothing
No band, no tv, no phone, no ipod, no game system, no friends, no band......NOTHING. Nothing.
Yes, it will be miserable for you having a raging tyrant around. Until you get through to her that her reign has come to an end and there is a NEW order (the right order.....she obeys you, not the other way around 



> what do we do? give in and give up, or keep fighting for the next 4 years only to watch her flip the bird and walk?


What would I do?
A) What I said above. Remove EVERYTHING.
B) I would not let her set foot in a school, ever. You think it's bad now? HA!! You 'ain't seen nothin'. 
C) Her choices would be limited to "obey, or suffer the consequences."Period.

She may flip the bird on her 18th bday. So what, let her.
IF YOU do everything like you should and she CHOOSES to make wrong choices, then it's on her. You did your part. You taught, loved, corrected, disciplined, you led. If she CHOOSES to turn her back and walk......it's just that, her choice.
But you have to dig in your heels, and be determined to do the right thing.


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## Dutchie

Laura Zone 5 said:


> What does she 'hate' about it? Why does she hate it?
> Waves? What are waves? Is she grumbly, or does she cause a scene?
> 
> 
> 
> If she cannot respect you, and your authority, then she doesn't get to go to band. Band is a Privilege not a right.
> 
> 
> 
> What are her swift, uncomfortable, consistent, consequences for such disobedience? What does her father say?
> 
> 
> 
> Is she in youth group? This, IMHO is an extension of the public school system. Same types of cliques, same fleshy teens. If she is in youth group, I would pull her out now. This could be the root of the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO you have rewarded her poor behavior and encouraged worse.
> Time to tighten down. Until she can respect her parents, her siblings and herself.....(if you are Believers, first and foremost respect and reverence for the Lord!) ........she does, nothing.
> No, seriously.
> Nothing
> No band, no tv, no phone, no ipod, no game system, no friends, no band......NOTHING. Nothing.
> Yes, it will be miserable for you having a raging tyrant around. Until you get through to her that her reign has come to an end and there is a NEW order (the right order.....she obeys you, not the other way around
> 
> 
> 
> What would I do?
> A) What I said above. Remove EVERYTHING.
> B) I would not let her set foot in a school, ever. You think it's bad now? HA!! You 'ain't seen nothin'.
> C) Her choices would be limited to "obey, or suffer the consequences."Period.
> 
> She may flip the bird on her 18th bday. So what, let her.
> IF YOU do everything like you should and she CHOOSES to make wrong choices, then it's on her. You did your part. You taught, loved, corrected, disciplined, you led. If she CHOOSES to turn her back and walk......it's just that, her choice.
> But you have to dig in your heels, and be determined to do the right thing.


I agree with just about all of the above. I do, however, have a few thoughts about what the OP said here:



> problem being, I dont want her in public school. I dont want her taught evolution, I dont want her to come home full of sugar and chemical food,
> I dont want her spending half the day on worthless curriculum that will get her nowhere


I had a problem with public school when my kids were there.... and at that time I knew nothing about homeschooling. I didn't think that they learned enough of the good things and too much of the bad things in school. So their father and I made a point of discussing whatever issue was on the foreground at the time and making sure we taught them the things we found important. When we did not agree with certain things were discussed in school we made a point of given them other points of view. And when we helped them with their homework we made sure we added knowledge to the material they were studying.

My point is that the goal should be to raise well rounded kids who have been exposed, with guidance, to many different cultures. And as parents it is our job to make sure they understand what the values are that are important to YOU.

They teach evolution in school? And you don't believe in it? Then YOU instill on them why evolution is not acceptable and why.

The result will be that you end up with well rounded, young adults who think for themselves.

And make sure that when they display undesirable teenage behaviour you ground them with no priviledges other than chores


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## BusyBees2

I agree with other posters about good behavior=good priveldges. Pull her out of that band....You already said it's been 2 years, now and that the behavior started at that time. (IMHO that behavior's gone on way too long)

You might also specifically state that under no circumstances is she ever going to public school, no matter how bad she acts. She may be doing these things so that you 'get tired of it' and 'just send her back'. If she knows that's not going to happen, it might ease up.

But let's look at the academic stuff. Is she capable of doing the academic program and just not doing it? Or is she frustrated and not getting it? Is she bored with it and trying to get through it faster?

Perhaps if you were to talk to her and suggest that she is more than welcome to move faster if she proves she understands the work. That she can move on as fast as she wants.

You might also consider if it's time to change up the curriculum, take a few fieldtrips, and generally try to make school more fun.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

these are all really great ideas, but been there, done that.

she has lost her radio and video game for a month at a time, we dont have tv here, she doesn't care. sending her to her room would be her pleasure, and she will refuse to eat. her allowance is long gone.
just getting her to do a couple household chores is a trial, which is tough, sicne we have a farm. we can use all the help we can get. we, at one point, even paid her for helping, changed nothing.

there has been twice where she lost the priveledge of even having a room and was made to sleep in the hall, which is horrid for her, because she likes to hit the sack at 8 and my husband comes in for supper at 11.
hall is attached to the kitchen, didnt change anything.

she has the ability to go as fast with her school work as she wants, thats not an issue. She could absolutely care LESS if she gets a bad grade or not.

she has no friends outside of her one class or 4H, she doesnt want any, and refuses to make contact with anyone. she has no siblings.

the nearest homeschool support group is some distance, and she made it very clear she wanted nothing to do with it. I am not going to waste my time. As soon as the new teen group starts at church, she will be going, even though she could care less, but it wont be for a couple months.

like I said, been there, done all that. 

next suggestion?


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## Melissa

She sounds like a depressed, sad young lady. Is there anything she enjoys or likes? I am feeling rather bad for her to be so young and have such a negative life.


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## halfpint

It sounds to me like you have a sad angry and maybe depressed young girl. If you have truly tried what the others have listed, then it might be time for family and individual counseling/intervention. Often large churches have counselors or pastors who are trained in counseling, but if you are not a member of one that does then you might want to pursue private counseling. 

The only other suggestion besides what others have listed is you need to show her that no matter what she does or how she behaves, you will still love her. You may want to read the book about learning your child's love language to help you in this as different individuals feel loved by different actions (ie some like words of affirmation, some like hugs, some like you do to things for them etc...).

Dawn


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## jmmac

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> DD hates being homeschooled. (8th BTW) oh does she make waves.
> she complains all the time. She takes band at the local school, and says they call her a hs freak (for a lot of reasons I dont believe it though).
> she takes some online classes in addition to what I teach at home. she refuses to accept instruction, instead prefering to go through the books on her own. Problem with that, is she doesnt retain the information, and is constantly scoring non-passing grades. when I say its agony, I am not kidding.
> 
> 
> She cares nothing for her education, she wants social time and admiration.
> 
> when we decided to send her to school for band, we did it because she wanted to go so bad, and her general behavior, respect for others, demeanor, attitude, trustworthiness, direction following, follow through-ness, etc. went from pre-puberty tolerable to a nightmare. Its been 2 years, nothings changed.
> 
> what do we do? give in and give up, or keep fighting for the next 4 years only to watch her flip the bird and walk?


My daughter starting acting like that a year ago. It is agony. Losing privileges would set off major battles and she would not eat. Memory problems are also a sign of depression. Get her to a doctor and a therapist. This could be more than normal teen behavior.


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## Laura Zone 5

Your thing in the upper right hand corner says "Hoosier transplant in the land of cheese"....or something like that.......

Does the timing of this move have anything to do with her behavior?

(This is rhetorical) Do you have any family history of bi-polar or schizophrenia?
I would have some blood drawn, and some other tests to see if this is something more than just defiance.......

I am so sorry. This sounds like a heart breaking situation. 
I wish I could be more help, but I will pray......
Laura


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## shanzone2001

Please understand that children that are homeschooled AND children in public school can have a similar disinterest in school. It may not be the homeschooling, but the individual child. Who is to say the problems would not continue or even get worse if you put her in public school? My advice is to see your doctor or a counselor and get to the root of the problem that is causing her to behave this way and say she hates school. Remember that a lot of this is adolescent behavior and she is just trying to push the limits (I am sure you already know that).
Good luck!


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## lonelyfarmgirl

since I am female, and had a real hard time of teenage hood myself, I do recognize what of it is teenage behavior. I had it rough, so I understand quite a bit of how she feels. Its just a crying shame she seems to think "my time' was in another universe where people are so different..blah, blah, blah...

she is talking with someone who is acting as a counselor. It is probably the only person on the planet she trusts right now, it just takes time for her to decide to talk about 'things'. she hasnt got there yet.

I doubt the move has anything to do with it. we've lived everywhere. I have read all the love language books, long ago. my husband and I really put alot of time and effort into dealing with her in a positive manner on a daily basis.

there is rarely any yelling, and we are careful to make it clear that any punishments are a reflection of what she did, rather than her as a person, etc...

maybe a test for schizophrenia is the way to go. where do you go for something like that? we dont have a family doctor, or health insurance.


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## shanzone2001

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> maybe a test for schizophrenia is the way to go. where do you go for something like that? we dont have a family doctor, or health insurance.


Even though you homeschool, you are a resident and therefore still entitled to a public school counselor. I would contact your school district and request a meeting with the counselor at your "home" school. He or she should be able to lead you in the right direction. Good luck!


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## rean

I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole.



shanzone2001 said:


> Even though you homeschool, you are a resident and therefore still entitled to a public school counselor. I would contact your school district and request a meeting with the counselor at your "home" school. He or she should be able to lead you in the right direction. Good luck!


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## shanzone2001

rean said:


> I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole.


I can see your concern, but she doesn't have insurance so this may be an option. The counselor can give her contact numbers and hopefully refer her to some free or low cost agencies. She doesn't have to actually receive "counseling", just some referral information.


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## Laura Zone 5

> *I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole.*
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by shanzone2001 View Post
> Even though you homeschool, you are a resident and therefore still entitled to a public school counselor. I would contact your school district and request a meeting with the counselor at your "home" school. He or she should be able to lead you in the right direction. Good luck!


I second the notion of not touching that with a 10 foot pole, unless you want CPS all up in your business. 

No insurance, no problem! You are in America!!
First, if you can, establish a family history of pscyh. issues. List who's side of the family they are on, and what their relation is. 
Google for your information on how to test for bi-polar or schizophrenia.
Google for the best doctors in your area. When you pay cash, you are given a huge discount, or put on a sliding fee scale.

Steer clear of the school..... Do your own research on the net.
Then choose a doc.


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## Elffriend

I also would not seek counseling or advice from the school. If there's a large town or city in traveling distance, look for a teen crisis centre or something similar. They will be able to point you in the right direction and may have counselors who work with teens on site for little or no fee.

I would try to get her around other homeschooled teens. None of them will make fun of her for being homeschooled. Even if she is not keen on the idea and doesn't want to go, see if there is a group specifically for teens that you can go visit.


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## FarmerChick

if it was me, I would let her have her way. she will learn more in a happy environment, she wants to experiment and have friends in that school surroundings. You taught her well, pack her healthy lunch and explain to her you are trusting her to do the right thing etc in school......have a real chat with the kid----let her tell her side as adult as she can---then make your decision.


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## offthegrid

What is homeschooling like for her? What is fun about it for her? Do you have opportunity to get together with other kids, pursue things she is interested in, take interesting field trips, etc.? If there is nothing like this, then I can't blame her for not liking homeschooling. 

Personally I think to further limit her priviledges until she shows respect might backfire, especially if she already thinks your 'parental' control is more than she wants.

I'd probably let her go to school. If you're all truly that miserable, I don't know that you can just "fix" it by taking away her band or computer time. We have been in public school and private school, and now homeschool. None of them is the worst thing EVER. Kids go to public school all over the country and succeed, still retain their faith (if they had one) and become respectable adults. Homeschooling isn't a magic bullet. Just because she's homeschooled does not mean she'll be better or happier, or more faithful.

It wouldn't surprise me if she found she didn't like school as much as she thought, but there is no way you could convince her of this unless you let her go.


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## Guest

We homeschooled for 5 years and when we moved our kids went to public school. I was burned out and ineffective as a teacher due to the burn out. 

I'm so thankful my kids are now in PS. My oldest son is getting to be in band-something I couldn't do at our old place due to the time constraints. My second oldest son is getting help with his reading. My third oldest son always was going to PS due to his many learning and cognitive disabilities. My daughters are in Kindergarten. They are getting their own social circle and becoming more aware of who they are in society because of PS. I also know that I have one or two children who, while I love them dearly, woud never listen to me enough to learn. They can listen and do chores, etc, but learning is another thing. I just couldn't teach their personality. 

We're in a small district and I get tons of back up from the teachers. My kids know that I will not hesitate to have a meeting, call or e-mail with their teachers if that's what's needed. Hearing the teachers back me up and vice versa has gotten through to my kids the value of an education. 

I feel that as far as morality, etc. goes that I have taught them my beliefs and my feelings. They have been instructed to us PS as their mission field. We often talk about being the only Bible some of their friends see. We've taken a few of their friends to Church with us. But int he end, they're going to be their own person and they need to figure out who they are...not who they are with me controlling their every move. So far, my kids have been doing pretty good. Again, when they slip there's a teacher there who can help me.


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## Gianni

I wouold have a frank discussion with her as to where she sees herself in 3 years, 5 years and ten years. Be prepared for some shock value as she will at first try to undermine all your values. Tell her frankly that you will help her reach her goals to the point of emancipation and on her own at 16 or 17 if she wants to do the work to get there. If she doesn't she needs to know she is welcome to live with you and DH as long as she wants as if rules are kept. If she cannot keep them she is on her own at 18. The future is hers, it is up to all of you to guide her to a happy one.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

ha! shes already made it clear that the day she turns 18 she is outta here. she says she will have a car, plastic surgery, piercings and tattoos, blah, blah...with what money I think? Is she so far outside of reality that she thinks she's magically going to have a million dollars? she can't even get her license until shes 18.

she wants to go to ps for social reasons. she seems to think that any textbook handed to her by the ps Gods will magically be in her brain an that she will absorb the knowledge as if she was born with it.
she is so far beyond rediculous, it really is astonishing.

she doesnt want anyones help to achieve anything. a more specific example would be..she wants sheep, but refuses to spend time at the sheep farm down the road to learn how to care for them, because they are not hers and she doesnt need to learn first.

I have considered sending her to the school. it is a very small school, in a very small town, but even with her taking only one class ther, the teachers and admin. have been less than cooperative with me. Ive felt the 'tell them where to stick it' bubbling up in my throat a few times already...


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## ErinP

ah. 
I see it now. 

This is a power struggle that has absolutely nothing to do with school...


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## lonelyfarmgirl

I wouldnt disagree with that.
the whole reason we let her go there for band to begin with was because she wanted to. I figured, public school or not, band was a safe bet, and she could get to know some of the same age kids in this area. I am not some kind of sheltering ogre that wont let her make some of her own choices, and experience the world as she is ready for it.

we consider what she wants, and how she feels, and the long and short term effects everytime a choice is made for her. the problem is, as days go by, she turns uglier and uglier, and her ability to make her own choices, due to her attitude problem, becomes less and less. that makes it worse, but it is the consequences of her actions. she has the inability to see it that way, and doesnt care a lick.


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## ErinP

I almost hesitate to say this because I'm guessing it's going to fall on deaf ears, but the best way to get kids to respect you and others is to _demonstrate_ it. 

I realize you're venting in this thread and that's _totally_ understandable. 
But try showing frequent, genuine respect for her, her hopes and dreams and wants and desires. Boundaries are fine. "No" is allowed. But find things about her and her decisions that you genuinely respect and play that up as often as you possibly can. 

The school is another. 
She obviously thinks very highly of the school for whatever reason. Running it down is counterproductive.

Find things that you genuinely appreciate about the school. 


> the teachers and admin. have been less than cooperative with me.


Very common. 
Try to see this from their view. They aren't robots who operate within a vacuum. They are people who've made the education and success of kids their life's passion. Most people, particularly in the junior high years! teach because they love kids. They _have_ to. After all, it's what keeps those obnoxious little turkeys alive day after day.  
But someone who is homeschooling is unconsciously conveying the opinion that _those people_ just aren't good enough for my little Joey. It can be very hurtful before that Mom or Dad even _says_ anything... 



I guess I disagree with rose. I don't think you should treat her in response to how she treats you. You're the adult afterall and more capable of seeing long term and big picture. 
I think you should demonstrate the change you want to see (with boundaries, of course). As it is, it just looks like you're descending further and further into the power struggle and that really doesn't seem to be working... :shrug:


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## lonelyfarmgirl

oh believe me we go out of our way to demonstrate proper behavior. now I cant lie and say that we dont also have our moments, we are only human after all.
my husband does an excellent job in this catagory. he never holds a grudge, and rarely to never issues punishment in anger. When she gets bucky and he has to step in, when its over its over, and he doesnt treat her poorly because of what she did after the fact.
He is much better at it than I am, but I treat her with respect, and speak politely and respectfully during and after punishment also.

If I end up yelling (doesnt happen often), as soon as its over, I return and apologize for yelling, with no 'but you's' attached.

one thing she always complains about is lack of money, so we (at her request) decided to pay her for the farm chores. we wrote a list, the expectations, the pay and what would lose the pay on paper and put it on the fridge where we could all see it. she said if we paid her, she would do a better job, etc...

that lasted less than a week. we kept up with the pay thing for 2 months before she was 'fired'. and you know what? when I told her she was fired, she argued for about 30 seconds, then ceased to care.

I wonder would a Christian boarding school for troubled teens be worth looking into? they are astromonically expensive though.


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## Guest

Send her to PS. 

It's a small town with a small school. Chances of her getting into major trouble are still small. The one thing they have there that you don't have is peer pressure. I doubt she'd get too mouthy with the teachers and they have a way of keeping kids in line that usually works. 

Of course you would have to swallow back some bitter feelings, but it could work. You have to determine what her going to PS means to YOU. Does it mean you failed as a teacher? As a parent? NO. It means that at this season in life it's just best for your daughter to go to PS. PERIOD. 

I went through this when we moved and I put my kids into PS. We HS'ed because the Principal at our old place was a Class A JERK. My kids are foster kids that we adopted and he basically labeled them as freaks from the get-go and would NOT give them a chance. He also didn't like that I stood up for my kids. Oh well. The one thing keeping me from putting them in later on when they were in another school was MY pride. I was so afraid that I missed teaching them something or that I damaged their education. Also, my kids are my calling card. If they are little twerps, then it has to reflect badly on me, right? 

I found the school setting here is 100% behind me. I was able to go in and talk to the Principal here and she understood and put my kids in the classrooms that best suited their needs. They got my second son in with a learning disabilities resource that's been wonderful. 

The best thing is that my oldest son was starting to go down the same road your daughter is going down. He was just in 5th grade, but he knew how the world worked and how he was going to get a job playing video games and all of that. Now that he's been in PS for almost a year, he's changed. We still have tweaks of attitude, but that's to be expected. He's more grounded and he's seeing that he's not smarter than everyone else. It's really woken him up to reality a bit. 

I should also say that it's helped our relationship, too. I was too close to my kids and in some ways, controlling their every move. Now I have to let go of all of that control. It's been a learning experience for all of us! I have to trust that they can take the manners and views I have taught them into the world and do good. That's pretty nerve-wracking! I'm finding that we now have more things to talk about and I'm learning about them on different levels. Two days ago my oldest said that he liked this one girl, but didn't know how to even say HI to her. We worked on it and role played a bit. He actually went up and said HI to her yesterday and they chatted for a bit. He came back to me and said that while she was cute, she wasn't that Christian and he wasn't going to go gaga over her. :clap: 

There's other ways to, that we're changing for the better. I now have time to pursue MY interests. Before I was Mom/Teacher 24/7. It was daunting to find ways to make EVERYTHING educational or to include the kids in everything I did. Now that they're gone so many hours a day, I'm finding that I can go a couple of hours without talking at all and I like it! I can sew, crochet or do whatever I want. It's kind of liberating! I'm so excited when they come home now! I don't mind spending up to 2 hours a night on homework. It makes me feel like I still have a hand in their education, too! 

If you feel that you've done all you can and life is miserable, why not try PS for the rest of the year?


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## lonelyfarmgirl

sending her full time is on the list of considerations. we have thought that it would be worth a try before we did anything drastic. it would have to wait until the new school year, due to other conflicts. she has 96 hours of community service to still complete, and it can only be done during the day.


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## frazzlehead

Something you might consider is to ask her to solve the problem for you. Put the 'burden of proof' on her - she'll start out trying to convince you that her plans are awesome and perfect and most likely end up convincing herself she's not quite as together as she thought. Something like this...

"You hate your life the way it is, and when you are 18 you have plans to move out and live your own life. Okay, if that's your plan, let's look at how you can meet your objectives. After all, we're here to help prepare you for adult life so we should know what your plans are so we can help you meet your goals. If you were in charge of everything right this minute - you aren't but if you were - what would your life be like between now and when you turn 18? Write it up for me in a 2 page document and bring it to me tomorrow so we can discuss how to make this work for you. "

Then you take her written 'plan' and annotate it with questions that help her to look for more detail (the devil's in the details, every time). You don't outright knock any of her ideas, just keep drilling down for more detail. So she says she'll move out at 18 ... you just annotate with "great idea. Location? cost of rent? do you have grocery list for a month? need this info to prepare budget" Just like editing a document, where you add a few more questions and send it back for revisions. If it comes back with "apartment with best friend in big city" then you just annotate with more questions "is apartment walking distance to grocery store? if not, how much is bus/taxi to store? phone and power included in rent, or extra?" Just the details that teenagers haven't got any clue exist, because us grownups have always looked after that for them.

I've done this with my son (also in 8th grade now) and he has successfully talked himself out of some rather dumb things just by doing the detailed research I asked for (he started out trying to convince me something was a good idea and I just kept asking questions until he saw for himself it wasn't so smart).

Sometimes, doing this in writing takes away the tension, plus, in writing it up, often questions occur to the person doing the writing (i.e. your DD) that might have been glossed over in a discussion. I learned this trick at work - we can talk about how we want things to be designed (we do software design), and we're sure we got all the bits and pieces sorted but sure enough, when you stop to write it up, you realize you left a bunch of things out.  In addition, you give her 'control' over her life - you tell her to plan it out and as soon as she can convince you of the merits of her plan, that all the details are dealt with, you'll listen to her seriously. You do have to live up to that - but honestly, if she COULD convince you her plans were awesome, well, you'd be happy to help, right? So it's not untrue. The fact that you'd be surprised if her plans WERE well thought through is a different story... you never know, maybe she DOES know everything!

Good luck.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

I am doing this now, in a matter of speaking. I think I will expand on this, based on your idea. I already write her a number of notes every week, asking for her ideas and opinions of the issues she is having and her future desires. she only responds about half the time. but you gotta start somewhere, I guess.


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## Lizza

rose2005 said:


> I agree with Tonya. It really sounds like you both need some space between you.
> 
> A lot of folk put their homeschooled children in public school in high school. It is not seen as a failure at all.
> 
> Hope whatever you do, it works and that you can rebuild your relationship with your daughter.
> 
> Rose


I only wanted to second Rose (and Tonya). I would put her in school, it sounds like it is what you both need. 

If you decide not to do that (and I think you should), I would turn over all her schoolwork to her, if she decides to read only and then do sewing, what is the worst that can happen? A year without math? You've got bigger problems. I would (of course) not let her watch tv, on the computer, or have the cell phone for hours on end but I would let her do whatever she wants (within reason of course) beyond that. Let her figure out what she wants to do. I agree with Melissa, how sad this is, she seems to find no joy in life, you need to bring some joy back before anything else can happen.


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## CareyShay

I am young, and went through many of the things your daughter in going through very recently. There were things very WRONG in my home which caused my feelings, but your home sound different. Never the less our emotions may have been/be similar. I spent much of my time feeling terribly lonely. I lived in the suburbs but never really understood how to connect with people. I lacked meaningful relationships in my life. 

I also was never encouraged to learn more about any of the things I was interested in. I noticed she has mentioned tattoos and piercings as something the wants when she is on her own. If she educates herself on the different procedures, history, etc. it can be a really interesting hobby. I have been interested in all forms of body modification for years, since I was 14, and do not have a single tattoo. What I really wanted, but didn&#8217;t know at the time, was to understand more about something that was so foreign to me. I wrote an eighteen page paper on it in high school, and was able to stop countless friends from doing stupid things with their body. Allowing her to have a piercing done by an A.P.P. approved studio might help her feel some ownership of her body, and there are many different ear piercings that can be done that will not affect future employment if that is an issue. 

There also seems to be some sort of body image problem. Exercise really helped me accept my body. I also read a few books on the media and how they push women to look, feel, and act in certain ways. Both of these things allowed me to see that I am lovely the way I am.

I don&#8217;t think this is really an issue with schooling, but one of a girl who does not love herself. I hope some of this information helps you.


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## okgoatgal2

1. many many 8th grade, around 14-15yo girls act this way. i teach this level. i see it daily.
2. i also lived with it. when my oldest was in 8th she was one attitude away from military school. i'd have gone in debt to send her there, too. it was that bad. 
3. talk to the school. then, let her go. if she refuses to do the work, she'll fail. let her take the consequence. 
4. be prepared for the next few years to remain difficult. people tell me it will get much better after she leaves for college and is out in the real world.....


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## lonelyfarmgirl

I do understand that alot of this is typical for a girl that age. I remember some of the things I did and felt and wanted. But she is beyond bad. she is very lonely and frustrated, yet denies everyone who wants to be a part of her life. It tears my heart out to see her suffer, yet I can do nothing, because she wants nothing to do with me.

careyshay, our home is different than alot of typical families. we go out of our way to be polite and respectful and loving, and I have always made sure not to keep her in the dark about the world. she has lots of opportunities to do stuff and experience stuff that your typical school kid does not get, not to mention she has more than most, although it hasn't always been that way. we were in the extremely dirt poor catagory for alot of years.
we dont have constant yelling and cursing, no smoking or tv, no alcoholics in the house, she has what she needs, and a reasonable amount of what she wants, we have plenty to eat, yet she doesnt see any of it. and I know she wont.
when she wants to do something, I always tell her, get me the info, look it up, learn about it, then we will see. she wont, never does.

okgoat gal, what happened with your girl. you chose not to send her?


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## debbydoo1966

offthegrid said:


> What is homeschooling like for her? What is fun about it for her? Do you have opportunity to get together with other kids, pursue things she is interested in, take interesting field trips, etc.? If there is nothing like this, then I can't blame her for not liking homeschooling.
> 
> Personally I think to further limit her priviledges until she shows respect might backfire, especially if she already thinks your 'parental' control is more than she wants.
> 
> I'd probably let her go to school. If you're all truly that miserable, I don't know that you can just "fix" it by taking away her band or computer time. We have been in public school and private school, and now homeschool. None of them is the worst thing EVER. Kids go to public school all over the country and succeed, still retain their faith (if they had one) and become respectable adults. Homeschooling isn't a magic bullet. Just because she's homeschooled does not mean she'll be better or happier, or more faithful.
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me if she found she didn't like school as much as she thought, but there is no way you could convince her of this unless you let her go.[/QUOT
> 
> I agree with this.
> Poor girl. She sounds like she's defeated.


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## okgoatgal2

i think when she heard me talking to her dad (we are divorced) about sending her, she realized i'd flat had enough and she began to straighten up, but towards the end of last year, she started going down hill again and this school year she's been....unique. we are all counting the days until she graduates, which breaks my heart, but she refuses to admit i have a brain and know anything about anything, so life is tough. when she graduates she's spending the summer with her dad before she goes to college. even her siblings are so ready for her attitude to be gone. it is truly sad. she refuses to admit any of the problem is her-it's all everyone else. so, you are really not alone. 

i would definitely find someway to have your dd checked for depression and some of the personality disorders. some of what you have described fit so well. and sometimes talk therapy is not enough to bring a person out of that deep clinical depression. think about it.


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## Merit

I keep hearing themes of lonliness, aloneness and craving _people_. She wants to go to PS for SOCIAL reasons. I--forgive me--pick up on an over-controlled individual whose "decisions are made for her". I'm hearing huge anger/rebellion/resentment expressend in the 'usual' ways (piercings/tattoos/move out/bad grades... that is, if you say "white", she'll say "black". Or, more directly, if your expressed _value_ is black, the she'll be drawn to white, out of the aforementioned anger/resentment/rebellion and postulated over-controlledness. Summed up: 1) Isolated and desperately craving social with peers. 2) Over-controlled and grasping for anything she can control herself (be it food intake, grades, anything). Viewing PS as the mecca where she'll suddenly/miraculously have all the social she craves, with the 'perk' of doing something so contrary to your values, which is going to (spit) Public School. Depressed? I sure would be!!! Give me FRIENDS and _anything_ becomes more bearable. End result on this path? She'll move very far away from you in a few years and be quite happy. She'll finally have control of her own life and she'll finally feel unstifled. That is a wonderful, wonderful feeling. She'll be very social and surround herself with tons of friends, but she may always feel like she's on the fringe of it all. That she just doesn't quite 'connect' with others the way she wants to, and the way she thinks they all do. It'll trouble her, but not hugely. As long as she's with them and enjoying them...well, that is just a niggling feeling she has. And you get your phone call or email once a month. She feels stifled, but happy to see you every Christmas when she comes home for the holidays. And relieved when she's back to her own state, half way across the country. With a big sigh of relief. You can love someone, but be much happier far away from them. She'll be a child a very short time, and an adult the rest of her life. For the sake of the rest of her AND YOUR lives, change this path immediately. You have very little time.


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## debbydoo1966

Merit said:


> I keep hearing themes of lonliness, aloneness and craving _people_. She wants to go to PS for SOCIAL reasons. I--forgive me--pick up on an over-controlled individual whose "decisions are made for her". I'm hearing huge anger/rebellion/resentment expressend in the 'usual' ways (piercings/tattoos/move out/bad grades... that is, if you say "white", she'll say "black". Or, more directly, if your expressed _value_ is black, the she'll be drawn to white, out of the aforementioned anger/resentment/rebellion and postulated over-controlledness. Summed up: 1) Isolated and desperately craving social with peers. 2) Over-controlled and grasping for anything she can control herself (be it food intake, grades, anything). Viewing PS as the mecca where she'll suddenly/miraculously have all the social she craves, with the 'perk' of doing something so contrary to your values, which is going to (spit) Public School. Depressed? I sure would be!!! Give me FRIENDS and _anything_ becomes more bearable. End result on this path? She'll move very far away from you in a few years and be quite happy. She'll finally have control of her own life and she'll finally feel unstifled. That is a wonderful, wonderful feeling. She'll be very social and surround herself with tons of friends, but she may always feel like she's on the fringe of it all. That she just doesn't quite 'connect' with others the way she wants to, and the way she thinks they all do. It'll trouble her, but not hugely. As long as she's with them and enjoying them...well, that is just a niggling feeling she has. And you get your phone call or email once a month. She feels stifled, but happy to see you every Christmas when she comes home for the holidays. And relieved when she's back to her own state, half way across the country. With a big sigh of relief. You can love someone, but be much happier far away from them. She'll be a child a very short time, and an adult the rest of her life. For the sake of the rest of her AND YOUR lives, change this path immediately. You have very little time.


Well put. This is exactly how I feel, and what I wanted to say. Thank you Merit.


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## Lizza

Merit said:


> I keep hearing themes of lonliness, aloneness and craving _people_. She wants to go to PS for SOCIAL reasons. I--forgive me--pick up on an over-controlled individual whose "decisions are made for her". I'm hearing huge anger/rebellion/resentment expressend in the 'usual' ways (piercings/tattoos/move out/bad grades... that is, if you say "white", she'll say "black". Or, more directly, if your expressed _value_ is black, the she'll be drawn to white, out of the aforementioned anger/resentment/rebellion and postulated over-controlledness. Summed up: 1) Isolated and desperately craving social with peers. 2) Over-controlled and grasping for anything she can control herself (be it food intake, grades, anything). Viewing PS as the mecca where she'll suddenly/miraculously have all the social she craves, with the 'perk' of doing something so contrary to your values, which is going to (spit) Public School. Depressed? I sure would be!!! Give me FRIENDS and _anything_ becomes more bearable. End result on this path? She'll move very far away from you in a few years and be quite happy. She'll finally have control of her own life and she'll finally feel unstifled. That is a wonderful, wonderful feeling. She'll be very social and surround herself with tons of friends, but she may always feel like she's on the fringe of it all. That she just doesn't quite 'connect' with others the way she wants to, and the way she thinks they all do. It'll trouble her, but not hugely. As long as she's with them and enjoying them...well, that is just a niggling feeling she has. And you get your phone call or email once a month. She feels stifled, but happy to see you every Christmas when she comes home for the holidays. And relieved when she's back to her own state, half way across the country. With a big sigh of relief. You can love someone, but be much happier far away from them. She'll be a child a very short time, and an adult the rest of her life. For the sake of the rest of her AND YOUR lives, change this path immediately. You have very little time.


Very well said. I was trying to say something along these lines, that she needs to have control over her own life. As parents that is our goal, isn't it? Slowly give them over all the control, she is a separate person from you, and I can feel from your posts that she has about zero control over her own life. Support her rather than fight her. At the end of the day you are the parent and in control of this situation, if it is this bad, you need to do a little soul searching about yourself. Parents aren't perfect and we all make mistakes and go in the wrong direction sometimes but hopefully we all can learn and grow, parents & kids alike. Hugs to you, raising kids is not easy.


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## rean

I gotta say, give up. just plain old give up. Because every bit of advice that has been given to you, you've tried, and doesn't work.


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## Lizza

rean said:


> I gotta say, give up. just plain old give up. Because every bit of advice that has been given to you, you've tried, and doesn't work.


Goodness, I hope no one ever gives up on their kids. You can change what you've been doing without giving up, we keep fighting for our kids, that's what parents do.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

I will never give up! although I feel like it sometimes. I understand that as our children grow, we are supposed to give over control. thats what we have been doing, and everything has simply gone to hell.
over the past several years, she has been given control over her diet, her personal hygiene and appearance, her school work to some extent, her extra curriculars, her free time, her bed time, how she spends her money, etc...
In return, we have recieved unwillingness to handle assigned chores, rotten grades, refusal to accept instruction, reprimand, or correction, lack of care about no one but herself, massive emotional hurt inflicted on members of the extended family, destructive behaviors, lying, stealing, cheating, etc...

which is why we have considered an in-patient treatment program.
what we may do is send her to ps for a year and see what happens. if things remain as they are or get worse, we might have to opt for the treatment program. the problem is how much it costs. If we could in any way afford it, I probably would have had her there, yesterday.


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## Lizza

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> I will never give up! although I feel like it sometimes. I understand that as our children grow, we are supposed to give over control. thats what we have been doing, and everything has simply gone to hell.
> over the past several years, she has been given control over her diet, her personal hygiene and appearance, her school work to some extent, her extra curriculars, her free time, her bed time, how she spends her money, etc...
> In return, we have recieved unwillingness to handle assigned chores, rotten grades, refusal to accept instruction, reprimand, or correction, lack of care about no one but herself, massive emotional hurt inflicted on members of the extended family, destructive behaviors, lying, stealing, cheating, etc...
> 
> which is why we have considered an in-patient treatment program.
> what we may do is send her to ps for a year and see what happens. if things remain as they are or get worse, we might have to opt for the treatment program. the problem is how much it costs. If we could in any way afford it, I probably would have had her there, yesterday.


I am so sorry you are having so many problems, I think you know this isn't normal teen behavior. You know this isn't about school, homeschool or public. It might be mental illness, only you know her and your family, no one else really knows, even the doctors and only you know wether PS will help or not. 

Something to consider is once you start the train for diagnosis and let the "system" into your lives, it is hard to stop that train. Although of course it can be the best course of action. She might also be able to go to a special public school for troubled teens (although again you don't really want her there unless she really absolutely needs to be there). 

You might be able to get financial assistance but mental health treatment is hard to get, even with insurance, but as a parent you can fight for it. You are right to start young. The parents that I've known that have waited very much regret not getting help earlier because once they are adults you have no more control over if they receive treatment or take their medication. I will be praying for you all, it sounds like you all need it.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

getting 'the system' involved frightens me terribly, my husband even more, and the last thing we want is to see her on medication, especially with the way doctors handle things these days. the place we are considering is a christian school for troubled teens. they frown on meds as a crutch, and only go there if absolutly neccessary. it will probably take us a year to figure out how to pay for it. I would rather it not get to that point, but I cant ignore the real possibility.
prayers help, thanks


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## Lizza

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> getting 'the system' involved frightens me terribly, my husband even more, and the last thing we want is to see her on medication, especially with the way doctors handle things these days. the place we are considering is a christian school for troubled teens. they frown on meds as a crutch, and only go there if absolutly neccessary. it will probably take us a year to figure out how to pay for it. I would rather it not get to that point, but I cant ignore the real possibility.
> prayers help, thanks


Medication changed our lives and kept our daughter out of any sort of in-patient. I am about the farthest thing from someone who would place their child on medication but we do and it honestly was life altering for us, I credit it with keeping her in the home. Medication can be a wonderful thing. Just something to think about it.


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## frazzlehead

This sounds like a very serious situation.

This is what caught my attention: _she is very lonely and frustrated, yet denies everyone who wants to be a part of her life. _

That sounds SOOO very much like depression to me. I know you are afraid of involving counsellors and dealing with meds and so on, but that sounds very, very much like something I know far too well. Depression is hard to understand if you've never lived it. You crave love and acceptance, and then violently shove anyone who offers you exactly what you need as far from you as you can. See, underneath the "I want to be loved" is "but I'm not worth it, and nobody's gonna love me, not for real, and if they pretend to they don't really mean it and they're just gonna leave anyway so FORGET IT". You long for acceptance and hate yourself for being so weak as to actually NEED anyone's love and acceptance, and stubbornly refuse to see the love and comfort being offered to you daily by people who really, truly DO love you ... because of COURSE you don't deserve it and if they are offering it to you, well, it's just because they are stupid and don't really know you or they just act like they love you because they are your family and well, they are supposed to. But it's not real. 

So you sabotage all the healthy relatonships and then cry because nobody cares for you and you are so horribly, painfully lonely. 

Opening up to love requires making yourself vulnerable to hurt ... and it seems easier to just wall off the whole world than to take that risk. And then the loneliness hurts and makes you insane with grief and loss ... and you lash out again and again.

If any of that sounds like what you are seeing in your child, please, please get her some professional help. I know you're afraid of 'inviting interference' but there is real risk in not intervening. 

PM me if I can be of more help - I lived this nightmare when I was in young, and although my parents knew I was in trouble, and they offered me help, I refused it (duh, I was 13). They should've made me go for help even if I said I didn't want it - I needed it. I got through it (although I'm not sure how), and have had one or two further bouts later on. I've got family members with similar issues so ... yeah, I recognize this mess. 

It's not about whether or not she is at home or at public school - I was in a very nice private school when things went in a tailspin for me ... I went from reasonably functional to total outcast (due to my own ridiculous behaviour, but I couldn't see that at the time) ... when you're in that kind of black hole, you can make a painful bed to lie in no matter where you are.

In the short term, you might give some consideration to a trial run of St John's Wort (3 months, minimum). I am very sensitive to medications and this is enough to keep me from going over the edge - it might work for her, and it's something you can try right away. It isn't a substitute for therapy (but a good adjunct) and CANNOT be used at the same time as many prescription meds, so do be cautious, however side effects are minimal to non-existent and, well, it might work.

One more question - not to frighten you, but just in case - have you checked for evidence of self-injury? Not every teen cuts, so don't assume that if there are no cuts she's not hurt herself .. deep scratches or head banging can alsoease the emotional agony (short term, of course, but when your insides hurt so bad, sometimes the urge to feel something physically is overwhelming). 

There is hope for healing - I am a well balanced adult (well, okay, I'm probably really weird but I'm okay with it!) and I no longer struggle with depression, although too much stress can trigger self-destructive thoughts and habits (at which point my family pointedly gets the St John's Wort and hands it to me - I tend not to realize I've started towards the edge without their help). Just taking good care of myself (which I ought to do anyway) keeps me well away from that precipice, so it's not like it's a life sentence or anything.

But, I remember the agony of being 13, depressed and intermittently suicidal, hating everything about myself ... especially my very normal human need for love and acceptance. I share all this in the hopes that if someone else is suffering that way, they are able to get the help they need to make their stay in that dark place as brief as possible.

Blessings and peace to us all.


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## okgoatgal2

i again am one who can speak for the positive side of medication. there have been so many advances in the past years. mental illness is not something that can always be dealt with just be talking. many times. many times. the chemical imbalance needs to be treated. my son, age 15, would most likely be dead if it weren't for antidepressants. i denied it for a while, until he opened the car door while i was driving on the highway. he was 8 or 9. yeah. he's been in a treatment facility for a week. he's now on daily meds and they have made a huge huge difference in his attitude towards life, himself, and others. he still will have nothing to do with his dad. but he will talk to me, and we can work out most issues. when he doesn't take his meds, he is...much like you have described your dd. angry, bitter, withdrawn. he's a big kid-6ft. very strong-built like a linebacker, always has been. carries 100lbs of feed no prob. benches 150, etc. his temper, when he's not on his meds, DANGEROUS! very. to himself, and to others. and he, thank God, realizes it. so he's usually quite good at taking his meds, now that he's matured enough to see the difference they make. 
his issues aren't the same as his older sister, who i mentioned earlier. she's just difficult by personality-it's inherited from her dad's side of the family. my son's are chemical. if they weren't, the meds wouldn't work the way they do. the right meds can transform the life of a person suffering from mental illness.

in short, seek diagnosis and if necessary, treatment. it took a friend of mine 12 yrs to get a proper diagnosis on her son. he's much happier now, although still adjusting to the meds-getting them levelled properly. he's 20 and just did a few days inpatient.


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## Lizza

One other thing I just have to say is that when you choose against meds, then the kids at some point will probably try to medicate with street drugs/alcohol. They don't feel "right" and the street drugs is a way to feel better. It is what happened to my two friends that were very against meds. Both told me that they wish they would have put their children on medication when they were younger. There have been so many advances in mental health over the last 20 years. Get a good psychiatrist though to monitor meds, don't do a general MD or pediatrician. One doctor once told me good psychiatric care is like a three legged stool, one leg being therapy, one being medication, and one being home life, all three have to be in balance for the stool not to fall over. Always remembered that.


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## country_wife

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> there has been twice where she lost the priveledge of even having a room and was made to sleep in the hall, which is horrid for her, because she likes to hit the sack at 8 and my husband comes in for supper at 11.
> hall is attached to the kitchen, didnt change anything.


Woah...wait a second..you made your kid _sleep in the hall_??

What is the big deal if she wants to go to bed early? If your husband can't get home sooner, there's no need for the kids to wait supper that long. Teens need a lot of sleep, even more so than most younger children, so let her rest.


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## haypoint

Christian Boarding School for troubled teens? You want to send her away to a place you already know is filled with kids that are likely worse than she is? Creating an environment where troubled teens are her peers will help how?

I can think of nothing more filled with evil than the average 13 year old girl. Even the best behaved, compete with mom and manipulate their dad. They can turn on the sweet-sweet, bat their eyes and throw on the pretty please look. But if that doesn't work, those sad eyes fill with anger and she'll be throwing daggers from those eyes.

The 13 year old boys are far behind socially. The average 13 year old girl can smile at a boy, throw her shoulders back, giggle and the boy will give up his snickers bar and not know why he did it.

I tell my farm friends that they must get their 11 year old daughter a horse or pony. I don't know why, but it seems that a girl with a horse shows less interest in boys until she's 16. Anyone with a boy crazy 13 year old will wish they had gotten her a horse.
You may still be feeding that horse after she goes off to college, but it will still be a good investment.

I'm not going to guess anything about how you were as a teenager, you mentioned your understanding about being that age. Sometimes we try to undo the way we were raised. If our parents were thought of as being too strict, we try to lighten up on our children, etc. Sometimes understanding rebellious behavior looks like accepting bad behavior to the child.

As we mature from babies to adults we crave power. Teens want to control their lives, resent your power over them. You think you can control what she eats? She'll just stop eating. You think you can punish her by locking her in her room, she'll prefer to be locked in her room, rendering your control useless. If she can't get any power in her life, she'll shut down.

You are an opinionated woman that goes against the established ways in everything you do, yet you want a child to conform to your authority and accept your judgment? Look at your web site and count the ways you operate the farm, the beliefs you cling to that are a sort of protest of modern agriculture and/or against government regulation. I don't see much middle ground, " We do it this way, we believe it is healthier, but I respect those that do things the other way" doesn't exist in your world. IMO

But those are your battles, not hers. Her normal is what others her age see as normal. 

It isn't just children, but all humans that pick on anything they see as different. If your daughter was perfect in every way, but home schooled, kids would pick on her for that. It gets compounded when she is "different" in several other ways. While humans are more complex, look at a brooder of chicks. If one or two are having a bad day, sitting down more often, the others will climb on them, stand on them. Now, in order to stand, they have an added disadvantage. The once mildly weak chick will become the very week chick with that added weight on his back. A bit of poop stuck to his behind becomes an object of relentless picking by others. If left alone, these chicks may have survived, but the peers detected a difference and in a day or two, you are picking out the dead ones. Looking and acting normal may have saved them. Understand?

If teens wanted to experience life as they are ready for it, we wouldn't have any teen pregnancies, high speed traffic fatalities or drug use. Teens lack the judgment for many things. But when you shelter them from life, they see it as a cage.

If you tell her she can't cross the road because a car will kill her, when she crosses the road and isn't killed, she has learned you lied to her. Therefore, when you say you can get pregnant the first time you have sex, you've taught her that is also a lie and she may attempt to prove you wrong. That's a rough way to go through life, testing the truth in everything you have been taught.

I suspect a Family Councilor would attempt some cockeyed compromise that would undo all that you have done.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

country_wife said:


> Woah...wait a second..you made your kid _sleep in the hall_??
> 
> What is the big deal if she wants to go to bed early? If your husband can't get home sooner, there's no need for the kids to wait supper that long. Teens need a lot of sleep, even more so than most younger children, so let her rest.


 
I never said I made her wait supper. I said we took her room away for a week. she deserved it, and although it didnt do much good immediately, she has cleaned up her room issues a little bit.


you are preaching to the choir haypoint, I dont want to send her to counseling..been there done that when I was young, and it was horrible. but I do have to examine all possible options. and no, She wont be getting a horse. she has proven many times over she cant take care of all the other animals she wanted soooo bad. Im not getting stuck with a 1000 pound monster that costs a fortune to care for.


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## rean

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> Im not getting stuck with a 1000 pound monster that costs a fortune to care for.


Instead, you are stuck with a hundred or so pound monster that costs a fortune to care for. 

Great choice!


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## haypoint

When I wrote, "I suspect a Family Councilor would attempt some cockeyed compromise that would undo all that you have done." it was meant tongue in cheek.

I'm terrible at hearing subtlety and I guess I'm no good at writing it. Let me a bit more direct. While there are bad councilors, just as there are bad folks in any job, I would encourage you to visit a family councilor with an open mind. While you were unwilling to accept the advice and compromise of the councilor before, perhaps that is an option worth revisiting. There is a power thing going on and there may be a way to defuse this standoff. Expect some give with that take.

You know how fast kids grow up? You know that it has been four years since she was ten. If that seems like a short time, the next four will zoom past even quicker. You'll have no control then. She'll be gone. By the time she's 25, perhaps with a couple kids and a couple LTR or ex-husbands, she'll start to believe you weren't as stupid as she thought you were. Then it'll take a decade or more before she wants you to see the grandkids. 

You can let out some of that leash without letting her be a whore. 
Give her the power to chose to attend public school, with a written contract that a B- in any class is cause to return to home school.

Let her know that you'll help with college expenses, 2 years at a CC and 2 years at SU. But if her grades aren't up to honor roll standards, for a graduation gift, she'll get a check for her first months rent and security deposit and she's on her own, flipping burgers, whatever.


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## offthegrid

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> I do have to examine all possible options. and no, She wont be getting a horse. she has proven many times over she cant take care of all the other animals she wanted soooo bad. Im not getting stuck with a 1000 pound monster that costs a fortune to care for.


I think it is unreasonable to think that any child will care for an animal 100%. I've heard this with other parents where the kids begged for a puppy and promised to take care of it, only to stop doing the work soon after its arrival. But, they are kids. That is the material difference between adults and children -- the ability to reason, to manage their time, to delay gratification. Of course some kids can do all these things, but most kids cannot and we shouldn't be surprised.

So, why can't she go to public school now? Why not give it a try?


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## lonelyfarmgirl

we are considering trying ps for a year to see how it goes. maybe, (my fantasy) it will make everything aaallllll better (yeah right!)
the grade contract thing is a good idea. Its going to require some thought and consideration over the summer. Its still a long way off.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

rean said:


> Instead, you are stuck with a hundred or so pound monster that costs a fortune to care for.
> 
> Great choice!


are you being sarcastic here? because if you are, thats really mean.


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## rean

No, I'm not sarcastic.


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## offthegrid

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> the grade contract thing is a good idea. Its going to require some thought and consideration over the summer. Its still a long way off.


I'd be careful about the grade contract, only because the transition from homeschool to public school is difficult no matter how well prepared a child may be. If there is a gap between what she has learned at home and what they are learning in school, she may not get all As, through no fault of her own. I'd definitely discuss wanting to see decent grades/effort/progress but would avoid making it "all or nothing". If she's working really hard and gets a C, you don't want to be forced to honor your own contract and yank her from school even if things are going well otherwise.


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## Lizza

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> you are preaching to the choir haypoint, I dont want to send her to counseling..been there done that when I was young, and it was horrible. but I do have to examine all possible options. and no, She wont be getting a horse. she has proven many times over she cant take care of all the other animals she wanted soooo bad. Im not getting stuck with a 1000 pound monster that costs a fortune to care for.


Whoa, back the train back up, you don't plan to get her any medical care at all? This is a no fault situation, it's not your fault, and it is NOT your daughters fault. This child is crying out for help. Not all counselors or therapists are good OR bad, they are individuals. You need a pediatric psychiatrist (one that can write scripts vrs a psychologist which is more what one would think of as counseling). I honestly can not believe at this juncture that you feel that as a parent you can still handle this situation on your own. 

I haven't been to this board in years and years and years but it is a very good resource and I think maybe you need some education about what you may be dealing with. They have a support forum. Post your story there, they have very experienced parents. I wish you and your daughter the best. http://www.conductdisorders.com/


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## Merit

rean said:


> I gotta say, give up. just plain old give up. Because every bit of advice that has been given to you, you've tried, and doesn't work.


 Then there is that old adage: "_You can't change anyone else, only yourself_." Also known as: "_When I keep hearing the same themes and comments from various people, it might do good to really hear them._" --Easier said than done, of course. (Rather like parenting. NOTHING is more difficult than parenting.) Sending warmest wishes..


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## Merit

Morningstar, what a great find with the ConductDisorders!


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## mrs.H

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> ha! shes already made it clear that the day she turns 18 she is outta here. she says she will have a car, plastic surgery, piercings and tattoos, blah, blah...with what money I think? Is she so far outside of reality that she thinks she's magically going to have a million dollars? she can't even get her license until shes 18.


Where do you suppose she got these ideas? The youth she associates with at ps? Take her out find, a good bible believing church, the kind that says parents have authority, and somehow get together with other home school families!

Evolution is not the only thing they teach in ps! They teach disrespect, dishonor, foul language, covetousness, bitterness, jealousy, self pity, laziness, and thats just the other kids! I wish that were a joke.


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## okgoatgal2

those things aren't all that's taught in ps either. thanks for making us all sound like evil idiots. i happen to teach middle school in a public school and i spend as much time teaching respect, manners, and how to behave here as i do at home, if not more. these things should be taught at home, but they aren't so public school has to do it. get a grip and stop bad-mouthing a whole group based on your poor experiences.


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## haypoint

What to do? 
There are several suggestions, all from those that don't know much about your daughter. Everyone is expressing their beliefs of what works, either through experiences or what they think should work.

I see a girl that thinks she's grown up and her mother has total control of her every movement. At this age her peers are way more important than family. All kids are afraid they won't "fit in" and mom has made her a misfit (in her mind) by keeping her out of school, the way she dresses, her hair, makeup (or lack of). 

She's telling mom that no matter what Mom expects of her, she still can control a big part of that. If ever there was a " you can lead a horse to water...." this is it. Mom has the power to home school her, but she can't make her learn. Mom can take privileges, but she can't make it a punishment if she gives up caring about those things. She'll find a way to gain control in every way she can. The tighter you hold her, the harder she'll resist.

She's let you know you can't make her learn. She's told you that when she turns 18, she's breaking loose of your control and will exercise that freedom by doing everything against your value system. 

If you hate her, continue to punish every sign of "negative behavior", discuss daily what she needs to do to be successful, remind her how lucky she is to have such a loving family, tell her how hard you've worked to teach her everything she knows. Tell her she needs to give up what she believes about the world and adopt your much more experienced views. Tell her how an unplanned pregnancy will ruin her life and break your heart.

You've gotten yourself onto thin ice with her. You need to give her some freedoms, but there is so much built up resentment, she'll use that freedom as a way to exhibit negative behavior. You let her go to public school and she'll find a way to show the kids she is a wild and crazy free sprit. If, and I think it has, her mind is on rebelling, she'll do some really careless things.

OK, you've told her that to do all those crazy things when she turns 18 is going to cost money. She needs a job, not working for mom. She can expect help with college, if she stays within some basic rules, but she knows she is free to do all those crazy things on her own. She needs to know that you will not take over parenting on any children she choses to bring into this world. There is no moving back home after she's made a mess of her life. If she's willing to behave, she can stay after her 18th birthday. If she needs to express herself, you understand you can't stop her. Perhaps knowing there isn't a safety net, she'll use that wisdom she's trying so hard to hide.

The world is full of disrespect, dishonor, foul language, covetousness, bitterness, jealousy, self pity, laziness, don't pretend you can shield her from it. She needs to see that she can choose to avoid that. She can't choose if it is all controlled by mom. 

As long as you are in control of everything in her life, she doesn't have to own any of her behavior. You've made it easy to blame you.

What you've got isn't working. I think a councilor that can broker a deal between you two could be the key. You agree to allow this and that and she agrees to do this and that. Having a third party do this works way better than an agreement between herself and the person she thinks she hates. That might look like control in yet another form.


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## jen74145

LFG,

I don't have a teenager, but I know depression. Your girl sounds right in the thick of it.

Of COURSE she wants animals, they are "safe" friends. Everything frazzlehead wrote is spot on; she wants friends and love, but she can't accept it. An animal isn't going to hurt her feelings, you know? Of COURSE she pushes people away, to her, they'll only hurt her!

I don't understand being resistant to ps but okay with a christian boarding school for troubled teens. She isn't a felon, she is hurt. 

She isn't evil, she's a person like the rest of us. She's just terribly unhappy.

Were she mine, I'd go hug her, make her favorite treat, and sit down to talk with her. And I'd probably talk to her about supplements that could help her feel better, SAM-e comes to mind. In a couple weeks, after some real time with her, I would set up a counselor and be very open to meds before this gets worse. 

Depression is horrible. You hurt those you love because they're just going to leave anyway. You have no interest in bonding because they really don't want to know the real you. 

How often do you genuinely tell her how great she is? How much you love her? Do you hug her? Yes, you have to be a aprent... but you can, and should I think, also be a friend. 

I truly am not trying to be adversarial, my heart bleeds for you all.

This is not going to get better until you get this child some help. Meds aren't all bad, some of us... it's like flipping a switch.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

morningstar, you are putting words in my mouth, I never said I was ruling out medical care. I will check out the link, thanks
haypoint, your comments would have been appropriate at the beginning of this thread, but now, what you just said is after the fact. most of all that has been clarified
jen, the answer to your questions, is every single day.
I have tried to hook her into the other homeschool families at the church. problem is, no one her age. the oldest other homeschooled kid is half her age, and a boy. I actually would be afraid to have her spend time with them. the mother is very nice, but super naive.


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## Melissa

mrs.H said:


> Where do you suppose she got these ideas? The youth she associates with at ps? Take her out find, a good bible believing church, the kind that says parents have authority, and somehow get together with other home school families!
> 
> Evolution is not the only thing they teach in ps! They teach disrespect, dishonor, foul language, covetousness, bitterness, jealousy, self pity, laziness, and thats just the other kids! I wish that were a joke.


Hasn't the child been homeschooled? Sounds like she learned all these things despite not going to public school! If a child is well-grounded in Biblical beliefs going to school won't change that. I have four of the nicest, best children you will ever meet and they all attended public school. And they are happy, content, hard-working and never considered plastic surgery, piercings or tatoos!


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## rean

sigh... this thread is going nowhere. Excellent advice has been given, but not really wanted. Time to cut lfg loose.


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## Lizza

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> morningstar, you are putting words in my mouth, I never said I was ruling out medical care. I will check out the link, thanks


I am sorry that you feel that I was putting words in your mouth, I really only am trying to help, from someone that has walked a similar road. You have seem to really resisted throughout this thread. I hope you do check out the link. I hope your whole family gets the care and healing you need.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

I signed up on the site, and will spend some time exploring the forum.
Things have been better the past week or so. No screaming fits in the past 7 days. It hasn't been super, but a little better.


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## frazzlehead

Better is good!

Prayers for healing all around.


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## Lizza

I am very glad to hear you've had a peaceful week. I second Frazzle, prayers all around for healing for your family.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

Its appreciated, as we need them. Some days are better than others. We choose our battles with her carefully, and try not to start anything when she is in a foul mood, usually during her 'time'. It seems to keep the peace better.
They mentioned, recently putting together a teen Bible quiz team thing at the church, and for a micro second she seemed interested, so we will see how that goes.

She also hasn't been responding to her counselor the past couple weeks. Apparently she didnt like what he had to say. I think he bursted her high and mighty bubble. We are waiting to see how that plays out before interfering.


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## Lizza

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> Its appreciated, as we need them. Some days are better than others. We choose our battles with her carefully, and try not to start anything when she is in a foul mood, usually during her 'time'. It seems to keep the peace better.
> They mentioned, recently putting together a teen Bible quiz team thing at the church, and for a micro second she seemed interested, so we will see how that goes.
> 
> She also hasn't been responding to her counselor the past couple weeks. Apparently she didnt like what he had to say. I think he bursted her high and mighty bubble. We are waiting to see how that plays out before interfering.


It sounds like things are going well, it's nice to get a little breathing room from time to time. It is easier to just "let go" of a lot and does bring some much needed harmony to the home. I think it extends to having some sympathy for the child and what they are going through and trying to understand. I can vouch that this does not turn the child into a monster, actually the exact opposite. I think it was helpful to remember that my daughter would literally rather be beat to death (no we didn't beat her or even use spanking mostly because we learned early on they only made things worse) or would literally have the house burn down around her ears to literally make a point, this was the angle she was coming from, so clearly strong arming her was not going to get the job done. It's an odd parallel but these kids need very soft handling even though they seem like they are hard as nails. I've always thought of her like a porcupine, with this horribly prickly outside, ready to stab anything that messes with her but if you look closely she actually has the softest belly of any of my children that she is only trying to protect. On the outside it looks like my easy going children would be the fragile ones, not so, it's my battle ready one. 

This book was probably the most helpful for us over the years. Looks like it may have been updated this year, it's an older book. One of her doctors over the years recommended it to us. This is one I would highly recommend you purchase. http://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Chi...ically/dp/0061906190/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top


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## lonelyfarmgirl

I do recognize the fragility of the situation. that is what makes this so hard to deal with. she is just like I was. mean, outspoken, uncaring, withdrawln, and feeling hopeless all in the same sentence. I had very similar issues when I was young.

I will check out the book, thanks


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