# I need caliber to mic clearances.



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

For 44 and 36 Cal. Anybody help me out?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

FarmboyBill said:


> For 44 and 36 Cal. Anybody help me out?


What clearances are you trying to measure?


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

I think you meant vernier caliper. Should be able to Google it.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)




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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

farmboy , I think your looking for ball size for your 36 cal cap and ball and 44 cap and ball

keep in mind these are different between different guns and not the same as cartridge guns 


generally the ball used for a 44 cap and ball is .454 or .457 and 36 are typically .375


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Thanks Pete.

Found a demo of paper cartridge making where he didn't use a tapered paper in making the cone to hold the powder. Gonna try it. He just wrapped a cig paper around a pen slightly smaller than his ball s lol. Glued the ball and sat it on the cone. He showed it being loaded, so im gonna try it.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

are these rip and pour paper cartridges ?


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

nope. They slide in then you ram in the ball. Then cap it with a capper. NO GREASE PAD OR SWAB


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

is the ball covered in paper when it goes in ?


unless the paper is thin enough that it ruptures I am not sure a #10 or #11 cap is going to have the power to get to the powder 

or you nitrate the paper 


the three types of paper cartridges I have heard of are 

rip and pour , these were issued to troops in the American Civil war the paper was wrapped around the mini ball the end twisted , then powder measured and poured in then that end twisted off , often paper was in shortage and bibles were cut up to make paper cartridges , the soldier had to have 2 good teeth opposing so that they could bite and rip , then pour and load the mini ball


the second was a breach loader that cut the paper when the breach was closed 

the third was nitrated paper around the powder , nitrated paper burns with a flash and is consumed with the powder 



my concern with no grease or lube would be some very hard fouling in not very many rounds


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

No to your first, The ball comes against the cylinder, when pressed inward. upon the ball coming in contact with the wall, the paper is glued just behind dead center of the ball, in which case the paper isn't effected, OR if the paper rides up to center of ball, the ball will shear a tiny bit of paper off when rammed into the cylinder.

In the civil War, Pistols had paper cartridges in the form I am making of them. They DID NOT rip and pour in the 6 shot pistols. Maybe not even in the single shot pistols they had at the beginning of the war.

Early sharps clipped the ends off of the paper cartridges. Its paper was nitrate coated also I believe.

Hmmm Ill have to look into that. I HAD intended to place a grease patch between the powder and the ball, as there would be plenty of room in the paper. Likely glue the patch onto the ball, let that dry, then glue a ring around the ball near center to put around the paper. Might have to use a couple 31 cal grease patches to fit the narrowness of the paper.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

a grease cookie might make more sense , cheap and easy to make any size you want , also I am not sure a wad would have enough grease to work contained in paper where a cookie would have a better chance 

melting tallow and bees wax together then putting on a shallow tin then cutting out with a 32 cal piece of brass , . a drilled out flash channel in the brass and a few minutes grinding a screw or nail head to fit just inside the 32 case so that you have a pusher to push the lube cookie back out after it is cut


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Im assuming the paper would disintergrate in the cylinder.


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hi Guys,
I wouldn't fire a cap and ball revolver with out at least a grease (really a wax/grease) cookie, watched one fellow with a chain fire to cure me! 
I agree with Green county I would not think even a cigarette paper would be thin enough to reliably to fire with standard caps (and if it ain't reliable, it ain't worth the aggravation). the tear and pour would be more likely to work, but I'm not sure if it would be worth doing other than for entertainment heaven knows I'm do a lot of that for fun
I'm not sure I'd want any thing wrapped in flash paper either rather excitable stuff!
If you try that be careful to keep them separate, and covered, a spark in your reload pouch would be a trifle exciting!
Heavens knows I spent enough time playing at paper patched rifle bullets!
Dutch


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Dutch there are several vids of people making the cartridges, and a few of them loading and shooting them. NOT ONE mentioning any dangerous experience associated with them.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

if the paper contains the powder charge it would be hard to get a spark past the ball that is oversize and shaves off some lead , but a lube cookie that squeezes to fill behind the ball would be added protection , and would also have the best chance of keeping the fouling soft 

but if the paper stays in tact , without poking a hole though it from the nipple end before capping , ignition , well your going to have to try it , my guess is the way it is sized the pressure of seating the ball is supposed to rip the back of the paper and push the powder out 

some people believe that chain fire happens from loose caps rather than insufficient grease over the ball and if you think about it an adequate spark passing by a ball that shaved off a ring of lead going in the cylinder is a little hard to imagine but a little lube is cheap insurance and something you need to keep the fouling soft any way tight fitting caps are a must either way


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Ive seen a chain fire, and got a piece of lead in the face from it. I was standing around 20ft to the L of my X when she fired and it chain fired and a piece hit my cheek. IF I had been watching her instead of the target, I might be called Ole one Eye Bill now lol.

I think chain firing does get around the ball somehow. I think that using a grease like Crisco, as everybody used in the 70s, spilling a bit of powder onto the cylinder while loading which stays on the face of the cylinder due to applying the grease allows firing around the front end of the cylinder. How fire gets behind the ball is anybodys guess.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

A *properly* sized ball is shaved on all sides when rammed into the cylinder so that's not going to allow a chain fire.

You will also not be able to "glue" a greased patch to anything.

Lube against the powder isn't a real problem if it's going to be fired soon, but to make up "cartridges" and let them sit around could contaminate the powder


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

In the early 70s I saw balls that shaved a ring as it was being seated inside the cylinder, and it still chain fired.

Why don't you watch some of the vids of them making paper cartridges on U Tubes? MOST of them glue the ball to the paper.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

FarmboyBill said:


> In the early 70s I saw balls that shaved a ring as it was being seated inside the cylinder, and it still chain fired.
> 
> Why don't you watch some of the vids of them making paper cartridges on U Tubes? MOST of them glue the ball to the paper.


Gluing the paper isn't a problem
Gluing a greased wad isn't doable.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Cant argue that as I don't know.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

.44 Cal. pistol, use a .440 ball and a GREASED thin patch. (paper or cloth)

The guys using .451 balls in a .44 cal cylinder are not only really hard on the ram, trying to force an oversize ball into the cylinder,
But they are stretching the frame as the ball gets forced into the barrel.
Nothing like a big gap between cylinder & barrel to allow 'Chain Fire'...

I know there are a bunch of 'Gun Grease' products out there for sealing the cylinders...

Quite frankly, I've found that generic 'Creamy Peanut Butter' works as good as anything when you are shooting a lot.
It cleans up easier than the petroleum based greases on the market, they all burn into carbon that's hard to get off...

When I'm going to leave it loaded a while, 
I use food grade silicone grease on patches.
The silicone grease doesn't leach into the powder, 
It's CHEAP! (Generic grease for food production equipment, about $6 for a quart can),
And again, it cleans up really easily, doesn't dry out like the other stuff does.

I shoot mostly Remington reproductions, they have a top strap that reinforces the frame.
With a steel 'O' ring frame, the frame doesn't stretch as much, so you don't get that oversized cylinder/barrel gap that allows for chain fires like the 'Colt' guys get all the time.

That top strap allows me a place to mount some good sights! 
Hitting the target is always a plus!


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

JeepHammer said:


> .44 Cal. pistol, use a .440 ball and a GREASED thin patch. (paper or cloth)
> 
> The guys using .451 balls in a .44 cal cylinder are not only really hard on the ram, trying to force an oversize ball into the cylinder,
> But they are stretching the frame as the ball gets forced into the barrel.
> ...


 Wait, youre using a .440 ball in a 44 cal revolver, and using a patch? 

The manufacturers all recommend a .451" to .457" ball, depending on the particular gun. It should shave a slight ring of lead off when seated. That isn't too large, its whats recommended and accepted as correct.

I've never had a chain fire with a Colt type revolver. I've always used balls that were the correct size, not 11 thousandths or more undersize. Mostly used grease over the balls, or a wonder wad treated felt wad under them.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Well, it will start a crap fight again,
But I shot cap & ball revolvers all through the 70s & 80s.

First off,
I find faster muzzle velocity and better accuracy using .440 balls & cloth patches.

Secondly,
And this will start a crap fight,
A lot of chain fires have someone with a magnaflux machine check the cylinder for cracks.
Every 'Self Taught' revolver shooter I've ever seen is overloading the cylinder,
Then cramming an oversize metal plug in that chamber,
Then packing black powder to within an inch of its life...

Then they can't figure out why the cylinder cracks between chambers....

No self respecting hand loader would compact a load like they think nothing about with black powder... Which is even more compression sensitive than modern powder...
Only an idiot would compress black powder in a metallic cartridge,
But black powder shooters don't think a thing about it...

The CVA and Italian reproductions from the 70s & 80s were particularly easy to crack,
And when they crack, you will have a lot of chain fires...
It wasn't until the 90s several of the reproduction companies started using ordnance steel for cylinders.

The .44 Ruger I shoot most was a revolution when Bill Ruger made it, Ruger was the first company to crank out a black powder pistol with the same stainless steel they used in their other revolvers,
The rest of the industry had to catch up...

Third,
The PROPER size ball, and patch, allow the ball to hit the rifling easier, less friction,
The patch allows the excess gas pressure to vent.

An over size ball stuffed into the cylinder is bad enough,
Trying to stuff that ball, under high pressure, into the rifling causes super high chamber pressure,
And as the ball clears the cylinder, that super high pressure burning black powder gets blown back against the rest of the loads...
No greased patch or grease in cylinders, ANY gap and you get chain fires.

I have been a big fan of black powder pistols for a long time,
And this is stuff collected in bits & pieces,
Stuff Bill Ruger published, the recalls & discontinue from CVA,
The occasional article in the gun magazines, that are all devoted to plastic pistols & 'Tatical' & 'Black' rifles...

You can do/believe anything you want to... Its up to you.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Every 'Self Taught' revolver shooter I've ever seen is overloading the cylinder,
> Then cramming an oversize metal plug in that chamber,
> Then packing black powder to within an inch of its life...





> Only an idiot would compress black powder in a metallic cartridge


So, once again, everyone does it wrong except for you.


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

JeepHammer said:


> Well, it will start a crap fight again,
> But I shot cap & ball revolvers all through the 70s & 80s.
> 
> First off,
> ...



I wasn't sure if you were serious, but I think you are.

1, Self taught percussion revolver shooters are all doing it wrong? They are doing it the way its been done since the guns were developed, and the way Colt told their customers how to do it. If theres a better way, youd think it would have caught on. You seem to be in the minority, as a self discovered inventor of a superior way to load the guns than all the manufacturers say to load them.

2, Not familiar with a rash of cracked cylinders from using the guns the way the manufacturers say to do it.

3, Smokeless and black are entirely different animals. This discussion is about black powder. Theres an awful lot of "_idiots"_ compressing black power loads. It was discovered long ago that the charge burns better, more consistently and cleaner when compressed. It isn't done simply because everybody is too ignorant to do it any other way. Its been rediscovered as the better way to load black.

4, This may come as a surprise, but having the ball be at or slightly above groove diameter for cast bullets is the standard way of doing it, with percussion or cartridge. Percussion guns can get away with smaller bullets because soft lead can bump up upon firing and fill the grooves. Minie bullets used in the Civil war were undersized, and hollow based, and expanded upon firing to fill the rifling and have some accuracy. Some modern muzzle loading bullets are also undersized, but bump up or expand enough to engage the rifling well. It was a big step up from patched round balls in several ways. Other than people dedicated to doing things the old time way, patched round balls have pretty well gone out of favor in the shooting world. If you've discovered that a patched round ball is a superior performing thing in a percussion revolver, you may have a difficult time persuading many to go along with that idea. I'd venture to say you weren't the first to think of it, but I doubt it can definitively be shown as superior. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems difficult to believe a patched round ball will stay in place in the chamber mouth as tightly and consistently as an oversized lead ball as all percussion revolver manufacturers say to use. Sealing the chamber mouth is important to reducing the chance of chain fires. If patched balls were superior, its use would be widespread. People like when they can make their guns run better. 

No crap fight unless you chose to pursue one. It would be one sided, I'm replying to a post I believe in error. I believe you've posted incorrect and potentially dangerous information. It contradicts common usage and manufacturers recommendations. When incorrect information about guns and shooting is posted online, it shouldn't be ignored and have someone find it and believe it, (must be true, nobody questioned it) though many forums have metric boatloads of flaky info.

Send a note to Uberti, Pietta and Ruger and ask them about loading patched round balls in their revolvers and post the replies. I'm curious to see what they say. You seem sure of the superiority of it, the factories should be willing to see the light if its better.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Funny, the CVA kits of the day came with patches, .440 balls, caps & powder flask.
With a warning about over loading (powder) and over compression of the powder charge.

I think you are mistaking seating the ball, using the ball to compress powder against the cap nipple with some idiot swinging on the ram handle for al he's worth...
Over loaded and white knuckles almost every time I see these guys do it.
So over loaded in fact, I've seen them pull out a knife and shave the ball to get the cylinder to rotate under the barrel.

As for metallic cartridges, cowboy black powder loading always warns against compressing the powder to prevent compression detonation.
Not that anyone reads the front of a load manual...
You will find it right there along side of the warning about hollow based bullets and case volume explanations.

Do it how ever you want to, its your hands, eye sight, ect.


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

JeepHammer said:


> 1, Funny, the CVA kits of the day came with patches, .440 balls, caps & powder flask.
> With a warning about over loading (powder) and over compression of the powder charge.
> 
> 2, I think you are mistaking seating the ball, using the ball to compress powder against the cap nipple with some idiot swinging on the ram handle for al he's worth...
> ...


 
1, Its clear now, that definitively proves that Colt and every other maker were doing it wrong with percussion revolvers from the 1840's on because somebody at CVA used to include those things in all their accessory kits with black powder guns. Got it. Thanks for pointing that out.


2, It does sound like many people overloaded, but only so much as it took to not have a ball sticking out the front of the chamber. Colts instructions said to use as much as the chamber would hold and leave room for the ball. Those guys went over that amount apparently.

3, I'm curious as to your reference for not compressing powder in cowboy action load information.

4, Quite right. I try to learn the accepted proper way of doing things, or try various ways that work and decide. On percussion guns, I've obviously been doing it wrong, along with the rest of the world. Its a wonder so many got away with it for so long. A miracle even. We need to contact all the other manufacturers of percussion guns and get them on track. Call Dixie gun works also, they are clueless. Theyve been encouraging people to do it all wrong for quite a long time.

Are you familiar with the term Dunning-Kruger?


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Reference would be NRA reloading manual for black powder.
About every black powder reloading manual warns against over compression/detonation.

If you could knock off the sarcasm a little bit,
And if you were actually interested in accuracy,
You might actually try a patch, greased or not, and a bore sized ball...
Before you started typing about how open minded you were.

Just like the guys that get the ball sprue plug up against the chamber wall and can't figure out why the revolver is chain firing...
You don't have to take anything new to you into consideration.

And just for the record, Colt target pistols in box sets came with a patch compartment,
Instructions in the lid recommended a patch to improve accuracy.
There are two in the Cody firearms museum, with pictures on line, with what I have to assume are the original patches from Colt.

This would lead me to believe that CVA and other reproduction companies simply copied what Colt, Remington & others had already done,
It is, after all, a reproduction of those earlier models.


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

JeepHammer said:


> Reference would be NRA reloading manual for black powder.
> About every black powder reloading manual warns against over compression/detonation.
> 
> If you could knock off the sarcasm a little bit,
> ...


Do you have specific references about over-compression and detonation? Specific manual and page number? I haven't seen anything of that sort. All the loading info I've seen on black powder for cartridges says some compression is better than none. Some go overboard, so far I haven't heard of any issues from it though, other than cases deforming. If compressing the powder is bad news, you should contact Lyman and others, they sell compression dies specifically for compressing powder in black powder cartridge loading. Some of the idiots that win matches use stuff like that (remember, you said anyone that compressed black powder in cartridges was an idiot?*).

Do you have a link to the pictures of the Colts with recommendation to use a patch in a revolver? That's also something I haven't seen before. Have been in the Cody museum a few times also. If you know where those are located, let me know and next time I make it there I'll look.

So far I haven't seen anything to lead me to believe you are correct about patches and undersize balls in percussion revolvers ever being recommended by manufacturers. My open minded-ness isn't the question, you suggesting things that nobody that makes the guns suggests is. Show me.

I'm becoming even less impressed with your self taught knowledge of firearms than when I first read in this thread.


* link to discussion of some idiots talking about powder compression with black powder in cartridges. Note that some of the participants are match winners and record holders. You could join the discussion and straighten them out.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?98872-compressing-black-powder/page3&


ETA: I'm not in the habit of ragging on people on the net. You left yourself wide open in an earlier post calling people idiots that do something that I know good and well is normal procedure and not a problem. It only went downhill from there with some of your other comments. I'll bow out of this and let it go its course without me. Best of luck to all interested parties. Research what you see or hear on the net.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Like I said,'when common sense is introduced into any conversation,
It starts a crap fight around here.
When you recommend re-chambering a blown out barrel,
The answer is to blow out the cases and keep shooting the rifle,
Completely ignoring the case hardening of the chamber, ect.
Hardened chambers give no warning... 3 inches in front of your eye.

When you suggest a case gauge to confirm your case resize,
You get the guys that hammer rounds together saying they never used a case gauge,
So no one else EVER needs one...

'Normal Proceedure' is what makes things dangerous.
You 'Normally' get away with it, until you don't.

PROPER PROCEEDURE is what keeps you safe and makes things perform better...

Idiots keep creeping up on loads,
Instead of finding the load that is most accurate.
The IDEA is to hit the target accurately,
Not make the biggest smoke cloud or boom on the range.

If you want a 'Magnum' hand cannon, go buy a bear pistol in some ridiculous caliber.
These are reproductions and NOT intended to be some magnum.

The question is,
Would you try and shoot .45 cal bullets through a .44 cal cartridge pistol?
Would you try to shoot a .451 Maginum cartridge through a .44 pistol?
If not, why are you RECOMMENDING to do that very thing just because its a black powder revolver?

Why do you think its OK to grossly overload the cylinder,
When you wouldn't grossly over load a metallic cartridge?

Like stupid people texting & driving, or drunk & driving,
Just because you haven't crashed into anything YET doesn't mean you are 'Right',
Just means you have been lucky to this point...
Its 'Standard', but that doesn't make it 'Right' or 'Correct'.

I'm looking at RCBS addendum for black powder cartridges, and it says 80% to 100% AVAILABLE CASE VOLUME,
Case volume being gross case volume, minus bullet seating depth.
There is also a dissertation on hollow base bullets, and how to figure the available volume in the bullet base...
A warning against less than 80% case volume, and a recomendatikn to use corn cob media to bring case volume up to 80%+.

Idiots crank down on the ram, shave balls so they will pass the barrel,
And can't understand why the gap between cylinder & barrel keeps getting bigger.

I NEVER said 'Undersize' balls,
I said 'Bore/Caliber' size.

Instead of .451 or larger balls in a .44 bore,
Try .440 balls. There is still plenty of compression to form ball to rifling, without elongating or shaving material off the ball.

As for Colt, which you used as a 'Standard',
But Remington did it also,
Shipped .440 bullet mold with .44 revolvers.
I also see where Colt recommended a 20 Grain powder charge,
And the revolvers shipped with a powder flask/measured was listed as a 20 grain 'Funnel' in the parts list...
That Colt history archives, History Of Colt Revolvers book.

I screw that one up, I shoot 25 grains FFFg. In my Remington reproductions,
30 grains FFFg in my Rugers.
My current reproductions are probably stronger than the original Colts...
Wouldn't recommend it in a brass frame!

Anyway, like I said, its your hands, your eye sight, your firearm,
Load it with 20 grains of 'Titegroup' for all I care.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Uberti FAQ recommends .440 balls and 22 grains of FFFg or 20 grains of FFFFg black powder.
No mention of a patch.
Wouldn't have thought of Uberti if you hadn't suggested it.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Now, lets go at this from a different direction...

The BORE, the actual bore hole in the barrel, BEFORE RIFLING grooves are cut into the barrel is much smaller than the 'Caliber'.

I'll use a .223 Rem for example because the people that can keep up with the conversation might know the specifications of a common barrel off the top of their head.
The rest will have to look it up...

A .223 'Normally' uses a .218" Bore,
The rifling grooves usually measure .0025" deep,
Giving you a .223" 'Caliber'.

You use a .224" diameter bullet, that's ONE THOUSANDTH of an inch difference.
0.001" difference.

When you stuff a .451" bullet into a .440" caliber barrel,
That's a difference of .051"
A .051" interference fit.
That's a 50 times increase in forming and friction pressures for exactly ZERO increase in muzzle velocity or accuracy!

That's abusive and builds excess pressure to completely resize the bullet,
Forcing the frame/barrel to elongate the bullet to fit the barrel.

Using hard lead makes the situation worse, those tire weights, salvaged lead ingots full of tin & antimony makes for some VERY hard lead, compounding the situation.

Then along comes a 'Common Practice' shooter and tells you to pump up the powder charge until the ball will just barely seat enough to allow the cylinder to pass the barrel,
And you just compounded the abuse to the frame, barrel throat even more.

Shoot a few times, and you start noticing a bunch of black powder reside on the frame at the front of the cylinder,
And if you had used feeler gauges between cylinder & barrel,
You would be able to gauge the stretch in the frame from the over pressure and over size balls...

The stain will turn into residue, then you will start loosing hair off your knuckles, and your hand will get nasty...
As the gap continues to grow.

Its physics.
'Common Practice' guys might argue it, but it happens anyway, like the sun coming up in the east and the earth rotating...

Now, a REASONABLE powder charge,
A properly sized ball,
Some lubrication, since lead isn't 'self lubricating',
Will all reduce the issues described above.

Keeping track of the cylinder swelling, and the gap between cylinder & barrel,
Correcting the gap when nessary,
Will keep the pressure where it belongs, behind the bullet instead of 'Dusting' your knuckles and gumming up the frame.

The pressure you keep behind the bullet will be benifical,
While making increasingly larger smoke clouds to the sides of the frame does nothing but waste powder & pressure.

Is that simple enough for 'Common Users'?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Like I said,'when *common sense* is introduced into any conversation,
> It starts a crap fight around here.


It's only when you replace "common sense" with misinformation

http://www.pietta.us/faq/index.html



> What size ball do I use in my revolver ?
> .31 caliber revolvers use a .322 ball.
> .36 caliber revolvers use a .375 ball.
> *.44 caliber revolvers use a .454 ball*.


http://www.uberti.com/sites/default/files/originals/product-manuals/black_powder_revolvers.pdf



> .44 Round Ball Diameter .454&#8221;/457&#8221;
> Conical Diameter .454&#8221;





> 13 - Place the *proper-sized* ball or bullet on the opening of
> the chamber. The *ball or bullet should be oversized*, so
> it will not enter (see fig. 4). If cast balls are being used,
> place sprue (or flat portion) facing upward.
> ...


*

Show us one credible source that supports your method*


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> *Uberti FAQ recommends .440 balls* and 22 grains of FFFg or 20 grains of FFFFg black powder.
> No mention of a patch.
> Wouldn't have thought of *Uberti* if you hadn't suggested it.


I copied and pasted what Uberti said, and it doesn't match your version other than the powder charges



> Quote:
> .44 Round Ball Diameter *.454â/457â*
> Conical Diameter .454â





> Now, lets go at this from a different direction...


What would be the point?


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

What would be the point...


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## goodatit (May 1, 2013)

JeepHammer said:


> Now, lets go at this from a different direction...
> 
> The BORE, the actual bore hole in the barrel, BEFORE RIFLING grooves are cut into the barrel is much smaller than the 'Caliber'.
> 
> ...


.451- .440
the difference is .o11


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

goodatit said:


> .451- .440
> the difference is .o11


Good catch


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

goodatit said:


> .451- .440
> the difference is .o11


Yes, that's the mathematical difference, but his supposed point is completely wrong and misleading. The "_bore_" is the minimum diameter of the barrel (despite common usage intended to mean maximum size, or groove diameter), what the original hole was before the rifling was cut. The "_groove_" diameter is what maximum inside diameter of the barrel after the rifling is cut, and what the bullets are sized to. In the so-called 44 cal percussion guns, the groove diameter of the barrels runs generally in the .450" to .456" diameter. The correct size bullets for such a barrel is generally exact groove diameter or a thousandth of an inch larger. The chamber mouths are close to that, or take a .451" to .454" or .457" diameter ball, which is indeed slightly oversize, and shaves a slight ring of lead when seated. That is how the manufacturers recommend doing it, and has been standard practice since the days when percussion revolvers were state of the art.

There is none of the supposed forcing a grossly oversized ball down a .440" barrel. Its a totally erroneous and misleading point.

Using a patched ball in a percussion revolver was used some for target shooting, but was generally deemed a pain in the behind, gave little if any advantage in target shooting and was generally thought not worth the trouble. If he wishes to do it, great, but the insistence that its the correct way is nothing short of wrong. He has made a few references to things he believes, like saying Uberti recommends using a .440" ball in their revolvers, but has been unable to show the actual references.

Dunning-Kruger indeed.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

You do it your way, I'll do it the Colt, Ruger, ect way.

I have references, NRA black powder reloading manual, Colt, Ruger, ect.

'Common Useage' Indeed...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the Ruger old army manual states to use a .457 round ball of pure lead 

the loading instructions in the manual http://www.ruger.com/products/_manuals/oldArmy.pdf


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Watched it rain for two days just outside of Furlow, AR. at Remington Arms plant.
Not much shooting going on when they are trying to keep water out of the buildings
What you are seeing on the news isn't just the bad spots, pretty much the entire state looks like the news...

We met the guys from Dixie Gun Works, and had some time to kill,
So I showed them this thread...
I don't know what 'Short Stroke' means to those guys, but they used it, and more colorful language when describing some of the guys that posted...

We got an invite to DGW and spent the morning this morning there,
Had lunch with them, and an 82 year old precision black powder shooter, and according to the guys from DGW the best black powder gunsmith in the world (that means the best gunsmith in TN. they know).

Spent a couple hours with that gentleman, who has the largest, most complete ORIGINAL black powder firearms collection I've ever seen, including the national firearms museum.

The first thing the guys from DGW pointed out was,
Why would you load/shoot something that wasn't accurate?
Readily admitting that a patch and proper size ball makes the firearm more accurate, 
Then recommending 'Common Usage' of stuffing an oversize ball into the cylinder and shooting 5" or 6" outside the bullseye....

The second thing they pointed out was the design of original firearms to reproductions.
Originals used proper sized balls, patches, and had tapered or rounded chamber throat to get the patch in easier,
The reproductions use square cut chambers to shave oversize balls down.

The old gun smith knew why the older firearms had chamfered chambers or muzzles, and the newer ones don't have.
Turns out 'Common Usage' is correct... And it goes back to the 'War Between The States', when guys forced rifle balls into revolvers, elongating the balls, and making them much less accurate...
I knew when the reproduction craze started, there were more people stuffing oversized balls into cylinders than were using proper size balls and patches,
But I didn't know why, or where it started, now I do.

Education is a wonderful thing!

They showed me several stretched frames sent in for warranty that are junk. Even an Uberti frame will stretch when you go stuffing oversize balls in, and they know exactly what they are looking at when they see it. So much for your warranty should you ever need it...










The place is MUCH smaller than I expected, mostly a retail parts & reproduction firearms, they don't manufacture much.
That's probably the reason they directed me to the gunsmith/gun maker that knows about everything about firearms prior to 1900.

Their advise to me was to join the gunsmiths & manufacturers guild, which I did,
And stop arguing with random people on the internet.

I think that's good advise.
It's much easier to talk to people that know what they are talking about...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> You do it your way, I'll do it the Colt, Ruger, ect way.
> 
> *I have references*, NRA black powder reloading manual, Colt, Ruger, ect.
> 
> 'Common Useage' Indeed...


You keep *saying* that, but every source that's been *shown* says you're wrong.

More anecdotes aren't going to change that.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Jeephammer could you post a video of the loading procedure you use for a cap and ball revolver 

I followed the Ruger old army manual when I had mine , and got 2 1/2 inch groups at 25 yards with a .457 round ball and 30gr FFFg black it was very nice gun and selling it was a hard decision but I just wasn't my game and I found I didn't shoot it that much , I also picked it up for a very good price so when I found a guy who had his stolen and was looking to replace his I sold it to him for fair market value that he was happy to pay


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Yeah, I still don't care what 'You' do.
The most vocal of the bunch posted that caliber size balls and patches are more accurate.
The difference has been explained in detail.
The reference the most vocal used was Dixie Gun Works, so instead of regurgating the same old 'Common Useage' crap,
I went to DGW and got it stright from the mouths directly from the owners/workers at DGW,
And its still not enough for the 'Uninformed Opinions' of the 'Common Useage' bunch,
So nothing short of Sam Colt or Bill Ruger coming back from the grave will convince them.
(Probably wouldn't believe it then...)

So, for the thinking & rational that will want to hit what they aiming at,
Consider a patch & caliber size ball.

For the stuff & puff lead slingers that could care less about accuracy,
Keep stuffing those over size balls in overloaded chambers like you have been,
No skin off my butt...
Make a little bigger 'Boom', keep missing the target, keep doing what you are doing.

As pointed out before, I made an error,
.45 shooters use .451 or .457" bullets,
They wouldn't consider an .011" oversize bullet,
I don't know why they consider (.451") .011" oversize bullet,
Or (.457") .017" oversize bullet...

Particularly since they would NEVER consider stuffing a bullet that oversize in any other firearm...
Something like a .308 Win, you would never consider stuffing a .319" (.011" oversize) projectile in that barrel,
Or a .325" projectile (.017" oversize) in that barrel...

Especally when professional shooters know to check each projectile for size,
Rejecting anything that is .0005" over or under outright for maximum accuracy.

I guess if you just want a big boom, smoke, and no chance of accuracy, then forcing the projectile to shave off part of its mass will work fine.
Since you aren't going to be accurate, why not just save the lead, 
Just use paper or wood plugs?
Less likely to stretch the frame, crack or blow up the cylinder...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

The other thing I consider is,
The most vocal, and insulting,
Are the same guys that claimed 'Common Useage/Practice' in a reloading thread.

Instead of telling a new reloader to use common safety, reload to SAAMI specifications,
(Remembering this was a new reloader asking for advise on how NOT to screw things up)
They recommended the the guy crank out rounds without a case gauge,
No way of knowing if the brass had been properly resized without a case gauge,
Then crank out rounds with no idea if the brass was properly resized or not...

Didn't ask the situation, being fired in the same rifle over and over,
Didn't ask if the brass took a lot of sizing, meaning the chamber blown out way oversize,
Just told the guy to crank out rounds without a caliper or case gauge...

Then argued THEY have rifles with blown out chambers they refuse to get fixed,
They just leave the brass blown out because they are lazy and don't want to fix the firearm or properly resize the brass...
Recommending that same sloppy, often dangerous path to a new reloade!

If they want to risk their own life/limb, that's one thing,
Selling lazy/stupid/dangerous to people just learning is another matter entirely.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

I have been reloading for many years and building better ammo than most "match grade" for a long time and I use my good old caliper and have yet to have an issue. I am thrilled you met them and at how knowledgeable he is and that's fine. On the flip side I do not believe that ANY gun manufacturer will recommend unsafe practices because they will be held liable. Your rants and raves about how to do things are more likely to get a newbie hurt than any of this other stuff. People will generally follow their manuals when new to the game, it's the wildcatters that generally get over zealous and go beyond what manufacturers say and mess with the safety issue but generally still within a limit. Pleasant reading and enjoy your better class of people!


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