# How much copper



## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I've been wondering exactly how much copper does a goat need.

The goat minerals we have available at our local store has 300 ppm copper. Other posters have said their's had 1,000 ppm or more if I remember right.

Is 300 ppm enough?

How much is too much?


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## AnnaS (Nov 29, 2003)

Hi Fishhead,

I really think 300 ppm is too low. I use a beef mineral with 2500 ppm copper. I had been using Purina Goat Mineral & had a liver test come back low in copper & selenium. The other thing to look at in a mineral is the type of copper compound. Copper oxide has a very low bioavailability so the PPM has to be higher to get the correct dose. Copper chloride is more bioavailable than oxide so a mineral can have a lower ppm and still be okay.

I'm using BoSe injections now for the selenium. Low selenium will inhibit copper uptake. U of MN said that the high level of iron in the water here was also interfering with the copper uptake.

Land O Lakes is getting serious about goats and is doing reasearch into a good goat mineral.


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## Trisha-MN (May 10, 2002)

Anna,
I hope you don't mind if I ask a few questions on this...
What does it mean when a liver test comes back low in copper & selenium? What type of tests are done? What numbers should one look for? Where did you have the test done?

Thanks,
Trisha


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Thanks Anna,

Next time I go to Fleet Farm I'll take a look at their beef minerals.

Do you know if we are in a selenium deficient area? When I get my goats back this spring they'll be living on sandy soil so I'm assuming that the weeds that grow on it will have limited minerals.


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## AnnaS (Nov 29, 2003)

Trisha-MN said:


> Anna,
> I hope you don't mind if I ask a few questions on this...
> What does it mean when a liver test comes back low in copper & selenium? What type of tests are done? What numbers should one look for? Where did you have the test done?
> 
> ...


Hi Trish!
The liver test is the most accurate measure of trace minerals in a goat since the minerals are stored in the liver. If copper or selenium is low in the liver, it's low in the animal. The blood tests are much less accurate since there may not be a physical demand for whatever mineral, so instead of being in circulation in the blood, it's in storage in the liver. 

The test is done by U of MN. Takes about 2 oz of liver (frozen is fine) and costs about $25 if I remember- it's called "caprine liver mineral analysis". The results for 11 trace minerals are shown, along with the adequate range and dietary recommendations.


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## AnnaS (Nov 29, 2003)

fishhead said:


> Thanks Anna,
> 
> Next time I go to Fleet Farm I'll take a look at their beef minerals.
> 
> Do you know if we are in a selenium deficient area? When I get my goats back this spring they'll be living on sandy soil so I'm assuming that the weeds that grow on it will have limited minerals.


We're actually in a selenium sufficent area. BUT a lot of MN water & soil has high levels of iron and sulfur, which interfere with utilization of selenium. Sandy, jackpine soil usually has a lot of sulfur in it. 

There's a study I'm trying to locate about trace minerals in deer browse in MN. Whitetail deer and goats have very similar requirements for trace minerals and the deer are getting what they need off the same land.


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## Trisha-MN (May 10, 2002)

Here's a link to a NW Minnesota Moose article: http://www.fws.gov/midwest/Agassiz/documents/MooseSurvey.pdf

We're in an non-typical part of NW Minnesota in that we don't have much for trees and aren't hilly/sandy but clay... this is very interesting to me though.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Here's a bit of nutrient info on deer. I'm not sure how useful it is.

http://www.kerrlake.com/deer/white4.htm

Instead of taking a liver sample what about testing the hair?


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## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

Goats appear to be more similar to cattle than sheep in their copper metabolism. For example, in research cited by Haenlein (335), the average copper concentration in the livers of goats was 10 ppm, while in sheep it averaged 196 ppm (fresh weight). These data are derived from animals from many sources on different diets, but it does suggest that goats do not store copper in their livers. A report by the European Commission entitled, âOpinion of the Scientific Committee for Animal Nutrition on the use of Copper in Feedingstuffs,â showed similar result. Sheep fed 7 ppm copper had 300 ppm (dry matter basis) copper concentrations in their livers, while goats fed similar copper levels had about one-third the copper at 100 ppm. Consequently, copper deficiency is much more common in goats than copper toxicity. 

The potential signs of copper deficiency include diarrhea, poor weight gain, light hair coats, anemia and unthrifty appearance. California veterinary pathologist (336) reports the most common copper deficiency in goats they receive is weak kids, one to two months of age that are uncoordinated. The deficiency originates with the doe that is unable to transfer enough copper to the developing fetus. Copper deficiency in goats is usually determined by measuring the concentration in blood. Goats normally have 0.8 to 1.2 ppm copper in the serum. The exact copper requirement for goats has not been determined, but many producers with experience believe that it is 10-20 ppm. This assumes normal levels of molybdenum, iron, and sulfur, which can reduce copper absorption. 

When sheep and goats are fed together, it is not uncommon to feed a low-copper mineral supplement designed for sheep. This increases the risk for developing copper deficiencies in kids born to does fed basal diets that are low in copper. Solaiman et al., (2005) fed Boer X Spanish goat kids a diet contain 14.5 ppm copper and then added 100 or 200 mg per head daily additional copper from copper sulfate (304). These data indicate that the 100 mg copper treatment improved gains, feed intake, and feed efficiency without adversely affecting health and well being of the goats. Practically, it is very unlikely that the same diet can be fed to sheep and goats without risking a copper toxicity in the sheep or a copper deficiency in the goats.

In summary, sheep and goats are dramatically different in their copper requirements. Based on these data it appears that copper requirements of goats must be re-evaluated and the NRC requirement adjusted accordingly (100).

http://www.saltinstitute.org/47o.html

See also...
http://www.saltinstitute.org/publications/stm/stm-mar-2005.pdf


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

You can put out the best goat minerals in the world, but if your animals aren't using it, they'll be deficient. Many, many goats won't take minerals, either loose or in block form. Most minerals/vitamins can be obtained through feed sources, but with copper, I prefer to bolus to ensure my animals are getting what they need.


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## Feral Nature (Feb 21, 2007)

As of yesterday....I am a boluser. When nothing else works, you finally have to pull out the big guns. I am forever now locked and loaded. :hobbyhors


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## Jcran (Jan 4, 2006)

Ok, I know what a bolus IS, but for goats? What, where do I buy goat copper bolusususeses? I am definitely interested in doing this also.


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

you can't buy goat bolus, you have to buy calf bolus and resize them in empty gel caps using a small scale.

Here's a website to look at:
http://www.u-sayranch.com/goats/copper.html

I bought the calf bolus' through valley vet or jeffers, can't remember which, and the gel caps and scale on amazon.com. I'm very pleased with how my goats are looking, coats are shedding out very glossy and soft, no bald eyes or noses, lots of milk.


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