# Because of this special day where kids globally fight for their future i have to share this



## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Even that i am not a big Fan of her, this video should be shown in every school around the world before every day school starts...it cannot be less important...
Share, help and hopefully SURVIVE...its your Kids World, not ours


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

A crock, a well produced crock, but a crock.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Denial is and was always easier
First step to resolve a problem is to see and accept there is one...
And for most, i did share this as info, nt a discussion base...
You dont like/believe it...ignore it...
Thx


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Meinecke said:


> Even that i am not a big Fan of her, this video should be shown in every school around the world before every day school starts...it cannot be less important...
> Share, help and hopefully SURVIVE...its your Kids World, not ours


Very good message from a very wise young lady.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Meinecke said:


> Denial is and was always easier
> First step to resolve a problem is to see and accept there is one...


There is a problem, but we can't stop it.

Robert Pindyck, a professor of economics and finance at MIT, says that attempts to make decisions about climate change based on a cost-benefit analysis are doomed to fail because both costs and benefits are uncertain. “All we can do is speculate,” he says. “We don’t really know the costs. We don’t really know the benefits.”​


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Ok, so lets just forget the whole "safe the planet" idea and life until we can...as long the profit is right...
Is that the message?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

101pigs said:


> Very good message from a very wise young lady.


She is a child actor


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Meinecke said:


> Ok, so lets just forget the whole "safe the planet" idea and life until we can...as long the profit is right...
> Is that the message?


You can't save it. We could devolve to pre-fossil fuels, pre-industrial age and climate change will still happen.

The release of U.S. carbon dioxide emissions in the first half of this year sank to their lowest level since 1991, the Energy Information Administration said yesterday. Benjamin Hulac, ClimateWire on October 13, 2016

The U.S. reduced carbon emissions by over 40 million tonnes last year, more than any other country.
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2018/1...-more-than-any-other-country-last-year-696200


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Is the climate changing, yes. That has been true since time began. What is the real danger now is that Leftists have taken those natural processes and weaponized them in order to gain power. So, do we have a climate change problem? Yes, just not the one you think. The problem is un ethical people using natural processes in order to subvert freedom. That is the climate problem we must fight against.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Why is it always an "us against them" scenario? It makes any type of rational discussion almost impossible.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

It is the governments creating fear, and manipulating weak minded people. Not to mention, they'd like us to fund the boondoggle so we can all live "safe" with their protection.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why is it always an "us against them" scenario? It makes any type of rational discussion almost impossible.


There is nothing "irrational" about us and them debate, just sometimes the debater might get that way.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why is it always an "us against them" scenario? It makes any type of rational discussion almost impossible.


Because they want power and control and we don't want to give it to them.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> A crock, a well produced crock, but a crock.


I concur.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why is it always an "us against them" scenario? It makes any type of rational discussion almost impossible.


"Rational" doesn't mean everyone always agrees with you.

Using the word as you did just implies anyone who doesn't go along must be irrational.
Silly word games.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Ask yourself that.
> "Rational" doesn't mean everyone always agrees with you.


Sigh. Back to this already.... Where did I say anyone, never less everyone, should always agree with me?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Pure propaganda. And you think all school children should be exposed to this junk?

Without fossil fuels, the world could not feed itself. Let's stop using all fossil fuels and watch the poor starve to death, because you know the rich will find a way to survive.

I have a one word rebuttal to this teenage propagandist - BATTERIES.

Unless you want to go with nuclear power plants that can operate 24 hours a day, how can the world store enough energy to get us through the dark and cold periods?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

She gets around


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> *Sigh.* Back to this already.... Where did I say anyone, never less everyone, should always agree with me?


I think you've sprung a leak.
Your questions have nothing to do with the OP topic.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> She gets around


She's well funded, and skips school a lot.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

You are terrified about climate change! So you have joined millions around the world for Greta's school strike for the climate. This is not anything to do with skipping lessons of course, you feel passionately. But have you got your facts straight? Time to find out...

Take the climate change test

https://www.playbuzz.com/item/af7c2201-9cea-4b05-85cb-e826e021b6cc?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I only got 10 out of 12 correct. I should've done more collegin I guess.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

In reality is it getting more difficult, outside of mental health centers, to find articulate spokes people for their propaganda, so, they have to go younger and younger.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Wait. Someone said BATTERIES are the solution? Really?

PLEASE tell me that was sarcasm.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> I only got 10 out of 12 correct. I should've done more collegin I guess.


I don't want to give away the answers, but there is a pattern


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

LIST OF DOOMSDAY PREDICTIONS THE CLIMATE ALARMIST GOT WRONG

Here is the source for numbers 1-28. As you will see, the individual sources are not crackpots, but scientific studies and media reports on “expert” predictions. The sources for numbers 29-41 are linked individually.


1967: Dire Famine Forecast By 1975
1969: Everyone Will Disappear In a Cloud Of Blue Steam By 1989 (1969)
1970: Ice Age By 2000
1970: America Subject to Water Rationing By 1974 and Food Rationing By 1980
1971: New Ice Age Coming By 2020 or 2030
1972: New Ice Age By 2070
1974: Space Satellites Show New Ice Age Coming Fast
1974: Another Ice Age?
1974: Ozone Depletion a ‘Great Peril to Life
1976: Scientific Consensus Planet Cooling, Famines imminent
1980: Acid Rain Kills Life In Lakes
1978: No End in Sight to 30-Year Cooling Trend
1988: Regional Droughts (that never happened) in 1990s
1988: Temperatures in DC Will Hit Record Highs
1988: Maldive Islands will Be Underwater by 2018 (they’re not)
1989: Rising Sea Levels will Obliterate Nations if Nothing Done by 2000
1989: New York City’s West Side Highway Underwater by 2019 (it’s not)
2000: Children Won’t Know what Snow Is
2002: Famine In 10 Years If We Don’t Give Up Eating Fish, Meat, and Dairy
2004: Britain will Be Siberia by 2024
2008: Arctic will Be Ice Free by 2018
2008: Climate Genius Al Gore Predicts Ice-Free Arctic by 2013
2009: Climate Genius Prince Charles Says we Have 96 Months to Save World
2009: UK Prime Minister Says 50 Days to ‘Save The Planet From Catastrophe’
2009: Climate Genius Al Gore Moves 2013 Prediction of Ice-Free Arctic to 2014
2013: Arctic Ice-Free by 2015
2013: Arctic Ice-Free by 2016
2014: Only 500 Days Before ‘Climate Chaos’
1968: Overpopulation Will Spread Worldwide
1970: World Will Use Up All its Natural Resources
1966: Oil Gone in Ten Years
1972: Oil Depleted in 20 Years
1977: Department of Energy Says Oil will Peak in 90s
1980: Peak Oil In 2000
1996: Peak Oil in 2020
2002: Peak Oil in 2010
2005 : Manhattan Underwater by 2015
1970: Urban Citizens Will Require Gas Masks by 1985
1970: Nitrogen buildup Will Make All Land Unusable
1970: Decaying Pollution Will Kill all the Fish
1970s: Killer Bees!


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> Is the climate changing, yes. That has been true since time began. What is the real danger now is that Leftists have taken those natural processes and weaponized them in order to gain power. So, do we have a climate change problem? Yes, just not the one you think. The problem is un ethical people using natural processes in order to subvert freedom. That is the climate problem we must fight against.


Freedom to do what?
pollute? Maybe that doesn't exist where you live.
Who wants to live in a cesspool?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> Freedom to do what?
> pollute? Maybe that doesn't exist where you live.
> Who wants to live in a cesspool?


Do you even read what gets posted here before you spout off?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

According to Lorrie Goldstein of the _Toronto Sun_:

Canadians already suspicious of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s carbon tax are likely be even more suspicious given a report by Ottawa-based Blacklock’s Reporter that Environment Canada omitted a century’s worth of observed weather data in developing its computer models on the impacts of climate change.

The scrapping of all observed weather data from 1850 to 1949 was necessary, a spokesman for Environment Canada told Blacklock’s Reporter, after researchers concluded that historically, there weren’t enough weather stations to create a reliable data set for that 100-year period.

“The historical data is not observed historical data,” the spokesman said. “It is modelled historical data … 24 models from historical simulations spanning 1950 to 2005 were used.”


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

No matter the cause of climate change it's real and it's really happening.
Working together to mitigate those changes is in everyone's interest unless you have heard differently from false prophets.
Then I would understand that we can't agree.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Do you even read what gets posted here before you spout off?


No I don't


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> No I don't


It shows


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Wait. Someone said BATTERIES are the solution? Really?
> 
> PLEASE tell me that was sarcasm.


My point was until there is a major breakthrough in battery technology, we have to use either fossil fuels or nuclear. Something she left out of her presentation.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why is it acceptable to belittle, mock, imply mental illness, and insult other members for a difference of opinion?


You should not feel insulted. I was just answering your question. I guess you did not like the answer.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why is it acceptable to belittle, mock, imply mental illness, and insult other members for a difference of opinion?


Somehow I knew I didn't need to read their same o same o.
It's so predictable it's sadly comic.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> Somehow I knew I didn't need to read their same o same o.
> It's so predictable it's sadly comic.


You should. Learning something might get you out of that hell you live in


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

SRSLADE said:


> Freedom to do what?
> pollute? Maybe that doesn't exist where you live.
> Who wants to live in a cesspool?


According to the brain trust currently running for the Democrat nomination, freedom to travel, freedom to eat as one pleases, freedom to keep ones earned money without more excessive taxes, etc..


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why is it acceptable to belittle, mock, imply mental illness, and insult other members for a difference of opinion?


Because the opinions that threaten our freedom deserve nothing more.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

SRSLADE said:


> No matter the cause of climate change it's real and it's really happening.


So a natural change in climate should be mitigated by us humans?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

https://www.sgtreport.com/2019/09/n...lar-orbit-and-axial-tilt-not-man-made-causes/



> NASA: “Climate Change” Caused by Changes in Earth’s Solar Orbit and Axial Tilt (Not Man-Made Causes)


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> So a natural change in climate should be mitigated by us humans?


Yes it should.
At least to help people survive with the least amount of suffering.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Using the young lady and her passion to grovel and further an agenda. Pure pandering for emotion. I must wonder how much fossil fuel she uses hopping the globe. Seth


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

SRSLADE said:


> Yes it should.
> At least to help people survive with the least amount of suffering.


So, you are for climate change as long as you determine what direction the change takes?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Seth said:


> Using the young lady and her passion to grovel and further an agenda. Pure pandering for emotion. I must wonder how much fossil fuel she uses hopping the globe. Seth


Doesn't matter, she is a woke young lady speaking to a woke audience. The tons of carbon that is put into the atmosphere in the process has no effect because WOKE!!


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

I know I'll be standing with the young when they are at the ballot box.
Not some line made up of grizzled old husk of human tragedy unable to find a soul.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> Doesn't matter, she is a woke young lady speaking to a woke audience. The tons of carbon that is put into the atmosphere in the process has no effect because WOKE!!


I have no idea what your'e babbling about.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> I know I'll be standing with the young when they are at the ballot box.
> Not some line made up of grizzled old husk of human tragedy unable to find a soul.


It is really hard to reply to that without slamming you to the ground.

We all know just how wise those young millennials are. Do a selfie when you vote.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

SRSLADE said:


> Freedom to do what?
> pollute? Maybe that doesn't exist where you live.
> Who wants to live in a cesspool?


You know, it's possible to not like pollution and still not believe the propaganda behind "climate change."

You act like it's either or. I can take both of those stands.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

SRSLADE said:


> I have no idea what your'e babbling about.


Then you shouldn't be babbling about the climate change lie.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Farmerga said:


> Doesn't matter, she is a woke young lady speaking to a woke audience. The tons of carbon that is put into the atmosphere in the process has no effect because WOKE!!



I honestly do not understand what you posted there. Seth


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

SRSLADE said:


> I know I'll be standing with the young when they are at the ballot box.
> Not some line made up of grizzled old husk of human tragedy unable to find a soul.


Tide pods in hand no doubt.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Seth said:


> I honestly do not understand what you posted there. Seth


You were wondering how much FF she used to globe hop. I simply said it doesn't matter because she is "Woke".(like all of the celebs who fly their private jets to Italy to complain about our automobiles and cattle) Kind of like it doesn't matter if a Leftist is found wearing blackface.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> Yes it should.
> At least to help people survive with the least amount of suffering.


We're doing that now.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why is it always an "us against them" scenario? It makes any type of rational discussion almost impossible.


Because problems are complex. Often, those that are of one belief want to impose their feelings on those that believe something different. Don't outlaw plastic straws but accept the excessive packaging on every television, printer, computer, smart phone. Don't impose fuel mileage standards on me, when you can just sell your car and walk. Be the change you want to see. For that little girl in the video to preach, shouldn't she first embrace a less consumer based lifestyle? Kill the air conditioning, turn the heat down to 50 and bundle up. 
Plant a tree. While on this blue planet, most of the oxygen is produced by ocean plants. In the US, the amount of forest has remained about the same for the past 150 years, 800,000,000 acres. Want more trees? Fine, buy some land and plant trees. You cannot criticize the use of oil, without first significantly cutting your own use of heat, travel, plastics, Amazon, etc.

I think the "us against them" happens every time the views/beliefs of others get shoved down our throats. I have a new, top of the line washing machine. It is designed to conserve water. Where I live, water falls out of the sky, soaks my soil, then runs down a ditch into the Great Lakes, makes its way to the ocean. I have lots of water. But now I have a $1000 washer that can't get the cow manure out of a pair of coveralls. How much water is saved with a toilet that gets only half a turd flushed? I can't buy a toilet that constantly gets a bowel movement from my bathroom to the septic. 

Want to get serious about energy? Put every beverage in a pint mason jar, beer, soda, water, prune juice, every liquid. Then put a dollar deposit on each one and a facility to wash them and reuse. I remember beer and soda being in reused bottles. 

Instead, we take petroleum based markers and write stuff on thick sheets of forest based poster boards, nail a forest based stick on it and go hold up traffic someplace. Really? Are we that lost?


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> We're doing that now.


They want u to suffer more.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

po boy said:


> They want u to suffer more.


They are going to be disappointed.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I can listen to contrary yet original thoughts.
Original ideas, yes.
Catch words and labels and virtue signaling used for guilt and manipulation cause the horns to honk.
Claiming it is "settled science" and "educated scientists..." is nonsense.
Links and videos that have to be designed for feelings and emotions because the truth won't sell.
Man has become so arrogant as to believe they can change the make up of this marble? lol.
There is a better argument to be made for overpopulation, but that wouldn't fit into this box very well.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

HDRider said:


> It is really hard to reply to that without slamming you to the ground.
> 
> We all know just how wise those young millennials are. Do a selfie when you vote.


Do you relate to my post?
Slamming to the ground sounds like violence. Do you advocate violence?
You should retract it as it shows weakness.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> We're doing that now.


Please tell me how WE are helping I love fairy tale endings.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> Yes it should.
> At least to help people survive with the least amount of suffering.


What happens when that asteroid hits us? Trillions of dollars wasted? People put their quality of life on hold, just to see everything they sacrificed, go poof? We can adapt, just like we've always done. Enjoy life...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> Please tell me how WE are helping I love fairy tale endings.


Data has already been posted.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Farmerga said:


> You were wondering how much FF she used to globe hop. I simply said it doesn't matter because she is "Woke".(like all of the celebs who fly their private jets to Italy to complain about our automobiles and cattle) Kind of like it doesn't matter if a Leftist is found wearing blackface.



That explains perfectly why I didn't unnerstand. Seth


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> Do you relate to my post?
> Slamming to the ground sounds like violence. Do you advocate violence?
> You should retract it as it shows weakness.


It is called a metaphor. 

It stands


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> Please tell me how WE are helping I love fairy tale endings.


You should have read the posts


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Guess we were small time when we wanted a day off from school, last one that happened when I was in school was a skunk was released in the main hall.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

HDRider said:


> It is called a metaphor.
> 
> It stands


I understand.
Mine was poetry.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why is it acceptable to belittle, mock, imply mental illness, and insult other members for a difference of opinion?


 We used to tar and feather the town fools, but we can`t do that anymore.....



Farmerga said:


> Because the opinions that threaten our freedom deserve nothing more.


 Exactly, it actually deserves much more.



Farmerga said:


> So a natural change in climate should be mitigated by us humans?


 Yes,......they will not be happy until they change EVERYTHING....who cares if it needs changed or will end up a net loss.



SRSLADE said:


> Yes it should.
> At least to help people survive with the least amount of suffering.


 No one cares about that in this situation,.....I can 100% assure you, that was not a consideration in the green deal, not even considered for a second.



SRSLADE said:


> I know I'll be standing with the young when they are at the ballot box.
> Not some line made up of grizzled old husk of human tragedy unable to find a soul.














SRSLADE said:


> I have no idea what your'e babbling about.



Closed minds rarely do...….they know what they know, or more accurately , they know what they are told, they do not know otherwise, that requires critical thinking and the ability to see thru the programing.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Looks like proper gosling to me. 

Or.....
an infomercial for subsidies.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

SRSLADE said:


> Please tell me how WE are helping I love fairy tale endings.


 So you also agree we should end all social welfare programs and aid,...….go tell India to put back the billions of tons of trash they cleaned up...…….on earth day we put trash on the beach,......I could go on and on with the facts. But you have your fairy tale stories you believe in and that's all you know is what you were told.


I can see people like that on a crusade to stop the ice age and then their kids on a crusade to stop the glaciers from receding,....


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SRSLADE said:


> Please tell me how WE are helping I love fairy tale endings.


They have been brought up every time we have this discussion. Did your not read them the last ten times?


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Only in some bizzare 1984 dream would I have ever thought we would see a day dedicated to brainwashing the youth and people/adults, that would praise its existence.....


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

shawnlee said:


> Only in some bizzare 1984 dream would I have ever thought we would see a day dedicated to brainwashing the youth and people/adults, that would praise its existence.....


Truth IS stranger than fiction


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

Farmerga said:


> Doesn't matter, she is a woke young lady speaking to a woke audience. The tons of carbon that is put into the atmosphere in the process has no effect because WOKE!!


The term "woke" is misused. 
I am not saying YOU, Farmerga are misusing "woke" but IMO it is ironically and sadly misused by culture/media. The word woke, coming from awoke or awakened can be related to a spiritual awakening, and to me, that is not at all what's going on here, with the protests. But I suppose for some it may feel like a spiritual awakening to "fight for the planet" but it isn't for me, so what, I'll mind my own business. I just don't appreciate the "media" making catch phrases with what I consider to be a spiritual thing. But of course I am just creating my own suffering by being too attached to my own opinion.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> They have been brought up every time we have this discussion. Did your not read them the last ten times?


NO.
I know that sounds uninformed but the reply's are so scripted I no longer have to read them.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I thought some of you might get a thrill out of this, especially you @SRSLADE since you don't read.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

shawnlee said:


> Only in some bizzare 1984 dream would I have ever thought we would see a day dedicated to brainwashing the youth and people/adults, that would praise its existence.....


I'm glad your'e a we.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

HDRider said:


> I thought some of you might get a thrill out of this, especially you @SRSLADE since you don't read.


Very refreshing to see young people caring about the state of the world and not just their pocket books.
What did you get from it?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> Very refreshing to see young people caring about the state of the world and not just their pocket books.
> What did you get from it?


A grownup trying to remain relevant and using an innocent child to further his agenda.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

HDRider said:


> A grownup trying to remain relevant and using an innocent child to further his agenda.


Taken as a political post I don't disagree.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

shawnlee said:


> I can see people like that on a crusade to stop the ice age and then their kids on a crusade to stop the glaciers from receding,....


I just read a story about a "missing woman" who was discovered to be part of the group who was searching for herself.

http://www.travelweekly.com.au/arti...n-iceland-after-joining-her-own-search-party/

"A woman on a bus tour was reported missing by her bus driver at Iceland’s Eldgjá canyon, according to _TIME_, with the driver describing the missing woman as 160cm, Asian and wearing dark clothing.

A coast guard helicopter was assigned to help search for the woman but became delayed prompting the tour group to look for her on foot. About 50 people joined the search, including the woman herself.

According to the clipping, the woman had changed clothes and didn’t recognise the description of herself.

The search was called off at 3am, “when it became clear the missing woman was, in fact, accounted for and searching for herself.” "


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I just read a story about a "missing woman" who was discovered to be part of the group who was searching for herself.
> 
> http://www.travelweekly.com.au/arti...n-iceland-after-joining-her-own-search-party/
> 
> ...


OMG!! I hurt myself laughing.. and spilled my wine.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> I have no idea what your'e babbling about.


We seem to be in the same situation.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SRSLADE said:


> Very refreshing to see young people caring about the state of the world and not just their pocket books.
> What did you get from it?


i now understand better where Obama got his wisdom from.... Listening to ten year old girls!


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> NO.
> I know that sounds uninformed but the reply's are so scripted I no longer have to read them.


In a nutshell: The people who are trying to change the way the climate is changing are doing things that cause things that they are telling us that we can not do anymore and they want us to pay them to stop us from doing those things.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I just read a story about a "missing woman" who was discovered to be part of the group who was searching for herself.
> 
> http://www.travelweekly.com.au/arti...n-iceland-after-joining-her-own-search-party/
> 
> ...


sounds a bit like Elizabeth warren.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

If global warming was real, would Al Gore and Barrack Obama both have oceanfront homes?

If global warming was real, wouldn't Democrat governors and mayors of coastal states/cities be forcing people to move from flood prone areas, prohibit building in flood prone areas, and wouldn't they start building sea walls to keep the oceans out?

If global warming was real, wouldn't Hollywood stop flying on private jets?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Shine said:


> In a nutshell: The people who are trying to change the way the climate is changing are doing things that cause things that they are telling us that we can not do anymore and they want us to pay them to stop us from doing those things.


Yeppers, only they should be allowed to enjoy the good things in life. Me? I gotta have my cows fitted with plugs so they don't fart.


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

I don't understand why they don't build outdoor air conditioners like Alaska...


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yeppers, only they should be allowed to enjoy the good things in life. Me? I gotta have my cows fitted with plugs so they don't fart.


Will there be changes required for the Vegan lifestyles? Aren't they depleting the foodstuffs needed by the dastardly Methane producing Beef Steak Processors??


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Shine said:


> Will there be changes required for the Vegan lifestyles? Aren't they depleting the foodstuffs needed by the dastardly Methane producing Beef Steak Processors??


Of course they are! They should be required to eat red meat with every meal. The brain they save could be their own!


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

no really said:


> OMG!! I hurt myself laughing.. and spilled my wine.


I'm sorry for your loss.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> If global warming was real, wouldn't Hollywood stop flying on private jets?


This weekend "leaders" from all over the world will be flying into NY to tell others how bad it is to fly all over the world.


----------



## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> If global warming was real, would Al Gore and Barrack Obama both have oceanfront homes?
> 
> If global warming was real, wouldn't Democrat governors and mayors of coastal states/cities be forcing people to move from flood prone areas, prohibit building in flood prone areas, and wouldn't they start building sea walls to keep the oceans out?
> 
> If global warming was real, wouldn't Hollywood stop flying on private jets?


Yes they would as hypocrites and rich enough to afford the insurance.
SURPRISE.


----------



## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> This weekend "leaders" from all over the world will be flying into NY to tell others how bad it is to fly all over the world.


Hypocrites in jets.


----------



## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> i now understand better where Obama got his wisdom from.... Listening to ten year old girls!


I must respect your wisdom on this, however flawed.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

SRSLADE said:


> Hypocrites in jets.


Wind powered computer or phone you post with? No refined metals or such used in its functional parts?


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Hiro said:


> Wind powered computer or phone you post with? No refined metals or such used in its functional parts?


OK...so no more phones or computers for the air breathers, what else?


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Shine said:


> OK...so no more phones or computers for the air breathers, what else?


The list is endless for these "special" people on their "special" day from my observation.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Guess I missed the memo had no idea this was a special day, other than it's Friday and that's always special.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Shine said:


> In a nutshell: The people who are trying to change the way the climate is changing are doing things that cause things that they are telling us that we can not do anymore and they want us to pay them to stop us from doing those things.


I really wish that could be written out in such a way that it wasn’t so mind-bending, so that those who support them could actually read it and understand it. 

That is exactly what is happening, but they just don’t get it.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Shine said:


> OK...so no more phones or computers for the air breathers, what else?


Anyone serious about saving our planet should be willing to forget all products grown or manufactured by any modern methods. They would also forget about reproducing. Other than that they are still killing our planet. Me? I'll keep right on the way I am, using our resources, living my life and let others do likewise.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

If they wanted to promote a special agenda for planting more trees, it should have been in sync with something like Earth Day or Arbor Day. As for climate change, they need to read the fossil record. Climate change has been happening since the world was formed. We really have no idea how much humans have affected it since our records are just a dot on Earth's timeline.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The desire to save humanity is only second to the desire to control humanity.


----------



## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> This weekend "leaders" from all over the world will be flying into NY to tell others how bad it is to fly all over the world.


Its just soo bizzaro and convoluted there is no way to make it up,...….


----------



## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

*America's great climate exodus is starting in the Florida Keys*
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/weather/t...n-the-florida-keys/ar-AAHCP6U?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Steve_S said:


> *America's great climate exodus is starting in the Florida Keys*
> https://www.msn.com/en-ca/weather/t...n-the-florida-keys/ar-AAHCP6U?ocid=spartanntp


And there is nothing we can do to stop it.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> There's the back slappin', high fivein', congratulatory dog pile on any difference of opinion.


With a heavy dose of faux intellectualism, preaching and pretending to do something.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> With a heavy dose of faux intellectualism, preaching and pretending to do something.


Don't people have the right to do what they feel is best? Despite what you (collective you) might think? Mocking, belittling, name calling, etc. other members (or their ideals) should be beneath those that post here. Not nice. Not helpful. Not surprising.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Don't people have the right to do with they feel is best? Despite what you (collective you) might think? Mocking, belittling, name calling, etc. other members (or their ideals) should be beneath those that post here. Not nice. Not helpful. Not surprising.


No one has attempted to curb your (collective your) postings or opinions.

We (the collective we) just don't agree with it, and have said so.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> No one has attempted to curb your (collective your) postings or opinions.
> 
> We (the collective we) just don't agree with it, and have said so.


By mocking, belittling, name calling, etc. which apparently you're OK with... Not nice. Not helpful. Not surprising. 

And a waste of time. Have a wonderful day. I know I will.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> By mocking, belittling, name calling, etc. which apparently you're OK with... Not nice. Not helpful. Not surprising.
> 
> And a waste of time. Have a wonderful day. I know I will.


It is hard for me to understand how you can.


----------



## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Meanwhile


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

po boy said:


> Meanwhile


I have been to the Keys. I was not really impressed. Nice bars, some OK food, lots of people watching, but not a lot of natural beauty compared to other island I have been to.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SRSLADE said:


> NO.
> I know that sounds uninformed but the reply's are so scripted I no longer have to read them.


I understand completely. But consider doing this. Try and find the answers. You will find that yes we have issues with climate change but that we are also doing things about it. Quite reading the scripts from both sides and start writing your own.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

po boy said:


> Meanwhile


The fools. The poor ignorant fools.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

1. The 'Planet' doesn't need 'Saving'.
It's a hunk of radioactive metal with a rock slag shell.
It will be here long after any life has died.

What you should want to preserve is the surface biosphere that supports life.

2. Life spent the last 3.5 billion years or so sequestering carbon in the form of fossil fuels.
They consumed the carbon, died with the carbon, and took the carbon out of the biosphere with them.
The very name 'Fossil Fuel' should tell you where the concentrated carbon came from.

3. Human life could not have evolved with the carbon in the atmosphere, the carbon sequestration was a pre requirement for humans to evolve. 

4. Humans are the only species to release the sequestered carbon, in unimaginable quantities for the average person. 
The quantity is the issue, both the number of humans, and the amount of carbon being released.

5. Life will adapt to some degree to exist NATURALLY in the higher carbon biosphere.
Life started & evolved in higher carbon atmosphere, and life will evolve to naturally live in the higher carbon biosphere again, probably plant life again like it was in the beginning.
Humans will NOT be able to adapt to naturally live in the higher carbon biosphere, some might survive in artificial habitats...

6. Humans do not live naturally, the breed out of proportion to what the enviorment can support, the consume & waste more resources than they need, and like a harmful virus, they reproduce & pollute the host until the host dies.
Humans are a pathogen in the natural environment,and they destroy the biosphere that supports them.

7. More than 98% of actual educated, trained experts that can comprehend the damage being done to the biosphere agree things are changing for the worst for humans,
And that change is man made through the release of carbon/fossil fuels,
The only real question is how fast is the change going to happen?

8. While US based boobtube and internet 'Experts' debate endlessly, the changes are happening.
No one points out that countries with higher EDUCATION levels than the US are rapidly switching to sustainable energy, the lesser educated countries are resisting sustainable energy.
Their economies haven't collapsed, there is no change with the common consumer, and a couple have actually produced in excess of 100% of their needs at times, allowing for export of the excess energy.

9. With wind energy reaching a cost competitive point for natural gas there is a replacement for natural gas that's doesn't produce carbon pollution.
Solar electric energy is already less expensive than gasoline/diesel for mass transportation.
While initial purchase cost is higher than combustion engine vehicles, and solar plants have higher initial costs, the savings in energy costs far out weights the initial purchase cost long term.

10. As long as humans have a consumer, disposable, wasteful and war driven culture, there simply aren't enough resources to continue the way we are currently going, future generations WILL run out of resources.
The oceans are filling up with toxic waste & plastic,
Humans have over run the capability of the oceans to produce fish & seafood, and what's left is rapidly becoming toxic,
The fossil fuels are deeper, dirtier and more dangerous to recover,
Air, water & food is being contaminated,
Over use of antibiotics has produced 'Super Bugs' that kill humans with no cure available...

We either wake up as a species and do something about it, or it gets much worse until the biosphere kills off humans, reducing them to a manageable level or erasing them entirely.
A pathogen that kills it's host also dies...


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Do you have supporting links for #2-#8. 
That was as far as I could go.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> Do you have supporting links for #2-#8.
> That was as far as I could go.


And there is the problem...
You want boobtube links for the most basic of things.

#2. 'Fossil Fuels' are compressed plant and animal matter, things that took carbon to the grave with them.
Since you don't understand that most basic concept, that also verifies the lack of education, and that would explain why the rest don't make sense to you and so many others...


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Didn’t say I didn’t understand it.
Just asking for links to back up your claims. On the surface much of it sounds well, hypothesized.


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Steve_S said:


> *America's great climate exodus is starting in the Florida Keys*
> https://www.msn.com/en-ca/weather/t...n-the-florida-keys/ar-AAHCP6U?ocid=spartanntp


lol... I read a new definition of progress in your link and it fits perfectly...

"The money is a fraction of what’s needed, and the process is moving at the speed of government."


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Don't people have the right to do what they feel is best? Despite what you (collective you) might think? Mocking, belittling, name calling, etc. other members (or their ideals) should be beneath those that post here. Not nice. Not helpful. Not surprising.


I don't know... How much is the plan that you support going to cost the individual American and what pronouns do you suggest we use to express our angst? Are you trying to be nice, helpful and considerate on the impact of all people to this problem that we will apparently all experience? Do you think that we can stop what is happening and all live happily ever after after we stop Climate Change? Who will pay for those countries that choose to do nothing about this problem? These are all sincere questions. If you have sincere answers, please elaborate...


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> 1. The 'Planet' doesn't need 'Saving'.
> It's a hunk of radioactive metal with a rock slag shell.
> It will be here long after any life has died.
> 
> ...


Your preaching to the wrong things to the wrong people. It's all about money and economy of scale. Nicaragua didn't build its geothermal plants because they wanted to appease the masses. It was about money. 

https://geothermalresourcescouncil.blogspot.com/2019/08/nicaragua-geothermal.html


*is pleased to report its financial and operating results for the quarter ended June 30, 2019.*


So you see it is about the money first and foremost for the ones that have the capability to make *massive* change. 

In my mind the greater problem is us people as a whole. My grandfather smoked his whole life. He used a Zippo lighter and had ink pens that he had had for decades. It was the way it was done back then. You didn't buy into "_The Crazy youngun's way of buying stuff just to throw it away". _ His actual words once. We have evolved into a throw away society as a whole. The oceans are proof of that as well as just about anywhere else. Cars aren't our biggest problem, it's the stuff we make from fossil fuels and throw away so they have to make more that is the bigger problem. No amount of trees in the world will fix that issue.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Shine said:


> lol... I read a new definition of progress in your link and it fits perfectly...
> 
> "The money is a fraction of what’s needed, and the process is moving at the speed of government."


Yeah and the part about the island is not totally correct either. The Oceans and rivers have been eroding land masses for billions of years. It is not necessarily due to climate change and most often it isnt. It just happens with the changing tides anyway. 

But a good bullet point for getting money huh?


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> And there is the problem...
> You want boobtube links for the most *basic* of things.


If they are "basic" the links should be easy to provide.
It's just common courtesy to show your sources for claims made.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Don't people have the right to do what they feel is best? Despite what you (collective you) might think? Mocking, belittling, name calling, etc. other members (or their ideals) should be beneath those that post here. Not nice. Not helpful. Not surprising.


It's human nature.
Since the beginning of modern humans they have organized for war, taken slaves, enforced class structures...

The 'Cream' floats, rises and groups together, tries to lift mankind, everyone, up to do well.
The waste sinks, clumps together, attacks & toxifies everything above it.
The problem is in human terms, the folks in the middle are closest to the waste, so we get the worst of the toxins and attacks.

An example is white supremacists pointing at brown people or Islamic people as 'Terrorists', blaming them for murder, rape & drugs,
When you are more than 7,000 times more likely to be murdered by a white supremacist.
White supremacists have been murdering people before the US was a country...

The same bunch argue it's not guns killing people, they refuse to acknowledge that a high volume of fire gun allows for more damage & higher body count.

There isn't any way to deal with people that refuse to accept basic facts, take the 'Flat Earthers' for example...

You have to pick your battles.
My grandpa used to say, "When you try and teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig."
I didn't understand that until the I ran into the cult like 'Beliefs' after the military.
No amount of common sense, science, research by actual educated experts, they hold onto 'Beliefs' instead of education and updating the information they have.
It's also an 'Opinion', or 'Belief' given them by someone else, they don't piece together information and come to their own realizations.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> Your preaching to the wrong things to the wrong people. It's all about money and economy of scale. Nicaragua didn't build its geothermal plants because they wanted to appease the masses. It was about money.
> 
> https://geothermalresourcescouncil.blogspot.com/2019/08/nicaragua-geothermal.html
> 
> ...


It was the switch from agriculture/durable goods manufacture (an actual economy) to a throw away 'Consumer' economy that's the biggest problem.
"I want it all, I want it right now, and I want to throw away the old", all 'Wants'", most of which have nothing to do with NEEDS.

You catch a TON of crap when you choose not to participate in that self defeating 'Economy'...


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> It was the switch from agriculture/durable goods manufacture (an actual economy) to a throw away 'Consumer' economy that's the biggest problem.
> "I want it all, I want it right now, and I want to throw away the old", all 'Wants'", most of which have nothing to do with NEEDS.
> 
> You catch a TON of crap when you choose not to participate in that self defeating 'Economy'...


I agree and that's a shame.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> It's human nature.
> Since the beginning of modern humans they have organized for war, taken slaves, enforced class structures...
> 
> The 'Cream' floats, rises and groups together, tries to lift mankind, everyone, up to do well.
> ...


This is like an addiction to exaggerations?

Do you have proof of a person having a 7000 times higher probability of being murdered by a white supremacist?
A high volume of gun fire (not sure what you constitute as a high volume) allows for more damage than what? 
Generalizations in your whole post are just that. Nothing more.
Boy oh boy fella, you just keep getting the words eh, wrong.


----------



## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> Is the climate changing, yes. That has been true since time began. What is the real danger now is that Leftists have taken those natural processes and weaponized them in order to gain power. So, do we have a climate change problem? Yes, just not the one you think. The problem is un ethical people using natural processes in order to subvert freedom. That is the climate problem we must fight against.


Yep. It is also about money: certain people stand to make a giant profit if they can get the world to stop using coal and petroleum. 

By the way, when did the Earth's temperature NOT change?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

JeepHammer said:


> It was the switch from agriculture/durable goods manufacture (an actual economy) to a throw away 'Consumer' economy that's the biggest problem.
> "I want it all, I want it right now, and I want to throw away the old", all 'Wants'", most of which have nothing to do with NEEDS.
> 
> You catch a TON of crap when you choose not to participate in that self defeating 'Economy'...


I am not sure it is what "WE" want, but more about "THEY" provide.

Things are designed for a short useful life, then buy a new one, even though only a small thing breaks or wears out.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> I am not sure it is what "WE" want, but more about "THEY" provide.
> 
> Things are designed for a short useful life, then buy a new one, even though only a small thing breaks or wears out.


Yes but they wouldn't provide it unless we wanted it.


----------



## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

The leftists started out with the world burning up. Then we were all going to freeze. Some smart leftist thought to have iboth ways so came up with "change". Well certainly; the earth's climate is constantly changing in observable but not yet well understood cycles.

What we do know is that the "wobble" of the earth's axis, the existence or absence of sun spots, continental drift and the known climate cycles are constants. At the moment the earth is entering a "Maunder Minimum", a slow cooling cycle that can last up tO 75 years. Moreover, the earth's cyclical climate was demonstrated by Milutin Milankovich more than 50 years ago. This is news to Leftists?????

Why these nut jobs are getting their knickers wadded up is beyond me. If we do as the radicals want we will first have to decide who gets to live and who dies; the earth as they want it could not feed its present population.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> Yes but they wouldn't provide it unless we wanted it.


I disagree. I have bought multiple smokers, and maybe if I spent over a grand, (most likely 3 grand) I would get one that last. But the ones less than $1,000 maybe last 3 years.

So many things are like that. I will pay more for quality, but quality is not guaranteed with by a higher price, and quality is getting impossible to find.

There is a reason it is called "consumable".

I worked in manufacturing all my life, and engineering to a certain life cycle is a real thing.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> This is like an addiction to exaggerations?
> 
> Do you have proof of a person having a 7000 times higher probability of being murdered by a white supremacist?
> A high volume of gun fire (not sure what you constitute as a high volume) allows for more damage than what?
> ...


White supremacists,
Actually, that's the FBIs version, other tracking groups put the chances much higher.
White supremacists have roughly a 241 year head start on Islamic terrorists in the US alone.
When you go world wide, the 6 million the NAZIs murdered isn't a drop in the bucket to the 52 million native Americans the Europeans murdered.

Firearms,
Allows for more death/damage than fixed magazines or non semi auto firearms.
More bullets fired per minute means more people injured/killed. 
No one has ever racked up a body count of 50+ in one incident with rocks, hammers, knives, etc
It's common sense to understand the principal but you are going to argue against common sense/facts, so what's the point... You are trolling...

The lack of education and ignoring historical facts is astounding when it comes to 'Cults'...


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> I disagree. I have bought multiple smokers, and maybe if I spent over a grand, (most likely 3 grand) I would get one that last. But the ones less than $1,000 maybe last 3 years.
> 
> So many things are like that. I will pay more for quality, but quality is not guaranteed with by a higher price, and quality is getting impossible to find.
> 
> ...


Their is that too so they can make more money. My grandmother bought a washer/dryer refrigerator when they retired. They were all still working when my grandfather passed away at 97. Nearly a full 40 years later as he retired at 60. 

My mother and father moved in and used then another 10 years. 

We used to have a culture of quality and integrity. Now it's like "oh well, I'll just go but another one." This didn't happen overnight. It's also one of the main reasons there is a huge difference between rich and poor these days and the income gap. Poor people can't buy a fridge that last 40 years anymore. 

My theory is this. Government lives and dies on us consuming. The more we consume the more they make off of us. Sales tax on one fridge or 10 fridges in a 40 year span? It keeps the GDP up but it doesn't really show the whole story.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> The *lack of education* and ignoring historical facts is astounding when it comes to '*Cults*'...


There's that word and that implication appearing yet again.
Here's a "historical fact" for you.
Drunk drivers kill more people than assault weapons.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's that word and that implication appearing yet again.
> Here's a "historical fact" for you.
> Drunk drivers kill more people than assault weapons.


The guy is killing it


----------



## 1948CaseVAI (May 12, 2014)

101pigs said:


> Very good message from a very wise young lady.


She is a poor dupe. I hate to see a kid misused, but this kid is so far out in space (no particular fault of hers - her parents should be arrested) that she is embarrassing herself. Yes, there is climate change. No, we did not cause it and we cannot stop it. Oh - and those claims that there is science on the side of human involvement is also false. Research a bit and you will see that the "science" involves altered data.

There are, I think, only two issues that could cause fighting in the streets of America. One would be restriction of our God-given right to defend ourselves and our families, and the other would be to sacrifice our economy and liberty on the altar of the environment or climate.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

My neighbor is a great guy and former special ops. He told me most of the guys that graduated from “army college” became lieutenants. He smiled and I left it at that.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

One happy ANTIFA family:
https://www.document.dk/2019/08/02/klima-greta-sponserer-extinction-rebellion/


----------



## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Jeephammer; Get your facts straight. First, there were never 52 million native Americans on this continents, and those that WERE here were slaughtering each other as quickly as their weapons permitted. The native Americans here now live a life far better than their ancestors---had the European not come they would still be primitive savages killing each other over hunting grounds. 

A second point; Warfare has been more or less constant since the beginning of history. As a matter of written history Genghis Khan made a practice of killing everyone in a conquered province as his army advanced so that no threat impeded his return to his own territory. This went on until a captured Chinese scholar convinced him that leaving peasants alive to farm could feed his army would allow him to live in the captured lands. I particularly noted the practice of dividing up young captive women among his troops as slaves and camp followers for the duration of a campaign---a;t the end of the campaign the women were killed as the troops returned to Mongol territory. Naturally the men fell in love and let some of them escape before the order came to kill.

Much the same conditions existed in the European conquest of S. America. The natives fought each other and some were enslaved, vassals of the winning side. Cortes took advantage of this and recruited Indian allies. Captive women were again divided up among the troops---One account complains that the officers would confiscate the prettiest captives. If you want a more recent account, read of the holocaust. Nothing the United States settlers did was ever comparable. For that matter, there is hardly a pure-blooded native American in the country now, and those in recognized tribes now are afforded privileges denied to me.

It may be fashionable now to decry the habits and attitudes of our forbears. It is easy be an armchair quarterback when one has no dog in the fight. If your great great grandfather was an African and you are now a Harvard graduate, or an airline mechanic, or a grocery clerk you might wonder if your great, great grandfather would prefer to have your life.

I am the descendant of families of European peasants. One of my female ancestors lived in Bohemia when it was overrun by Mongols. At least one of my male ancestors escaped death by running away before the Austrian army conscripted him. I'm pleased to be an American, no matter how the country came to be.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> No one has ever racked up a body count of 50+ in one incident with rocks, hammers, knives, etc


84 Killed with a Truck in France:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/15/nice-attack-leaves-84-dead-and-france-in-shock

87 killed with 1 gallon of gasoline:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire

13 "Mass Killings" without guns:
https://ijr.com/13-mass-killings-where-no-guns-were-involved/

*Machetes – 500 dead*
"Image credit: Screenshot/YouTube
In one of the bloodiest massacres in Nigerian history, more than 500 Christians were butchered near the city of Jos by machete-wielding Muslims in March of 2010. The attack, which didn’t spare toddlers or infants, was reportedly in reprisal for Christian attacks on Muslims two months earlier."


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> Yes but they wouldn't provide it unless we wanted it.


Untrue, or not entirely true at the very least.
For what you actually need, advertising isn't necessary, you will seek out the essentials.
The constant bombardment of advertising is designed from the ground up to make us 'Want' rather than think about need, or educate us in the difference between what's available.


----------



## D-BOONE (Feb 9, 2016)

haypoint said:


> How much water is saved with a toilet that gets only half a turd flushed? I can't buy a toilet that constantly gets a bowel movement from my bathroom to the septic.


If we cant flush all the "turds" in wash DC why shouldyou get one to the septic tank?


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Oxankle said:


> Jeephammer; Get your facts straight. First, there were never 52 million native Americans on this continents (rest of rant clipped since it has no relevence).


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas

https://uwpress.wisc.edu/books/0289.htm

I can provide about 5,000 more links from actual educated experts on how many native Americans were in the western hemesphere previous to 1492...
It's a fairly well studided and documented fact that around 52 million natives died because of European invasion.

The very idea that a European 'Discovered' two continents with around 112 million people already living there is insane,
But to deny the genocide that went on afterwards is even worse...

By that idiotic line of thinking, I can go 'Discover' New York City and claim it for myself...

---------

This is exactly the lack of education of facts that causes arguing FOR pollution,
Arguing FOR more guns on the street when there is already more firearms that US citizens in the US,
Arguing FOR white supremacists,

There is nothing you can do when the cult dogma keeps getting repeated, and anyone that disagrees is a 'Leftist', or what every derogatory name they can come up with to deflect from their lack of education.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The natives discovered it too. They lost it. No going back. No redo


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> Untrue, or not entirely true at the very least.
> For what you actually need, advertising isn't necessary, you will seek out the essentials.
> The constant bombardment of advertising is designed from the ground up to make us 'Want' rather than think about need, or educate us in the difference between what's available.


That's why I used the word "wanted" in my reply.


----------



## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

There is no arguing with one who is determined to be guilty. 
The "Experts" have nothing solid to go on--conjecture from old buildings, the early records of Europeans, from artifacts.
Warring cultures in primitive societies always had trouble maintaining their numbers.
I refuse to feel any guilt; had they the technology and know-how the Indians would have wiped out the Europeans, but they were just savages, ignorant of anything beyond hunt, gather, grow a few crops, war. Once they had the horse, those who had them rained death and destruction on their neighbors. How about some criticism of those people? Such retrospective guilt as liberals attempt to peddle is nonsense.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas
> 
> https://uwpress.wisc.edu/books/0289.htm
> 
> ...


The very articles that you reference refute many of your "beliefs". But, carry on...it is amusing.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Steve_S said:


> *America's great climate exodus is starting in the Florida Keys*
> https://www.msn.com/en-ca/weather/t...n-the-florida-keys/ar-AAHCP6U?ocid=spartanntp





po boy said:


> Meanwhile





mreynolds said:


> I understand completely. But consider doing this. Try and find the answers. You will find that yes we have issues with climate change but that we are also doing things about it. Quite reading the scripts from both sides and start writing your own.


Interesting about the keys, but @mreynolds is right, firsthand info is best.
Several of our clients with vacation rentals up here in WNC live in South Florida. They all have either sold and moved inward and northward (like Miami to Lauderdale) or are trying to sell now, going from beachside homes to condos.
All said that parts of Miami are regularly flooded now and they're trying to build seawalls to prevent it.
Sometimes big cities get a "so what" response, possibly thinking these are rich transplants who had bad luck on a good investment and can afford the loss.
While it's true they worked a lifetime and retired relatively well off, they've been there 30-50 years or more. They weren't planning to sell and move, but are smart enough to see the writing on the wall.

@Shine lives in Fl, I think more towards the center part, but he would probably have direct knowledge of anyone experiencing any effects of coastal sea level changes.




Shine said:


> lol... I read a new definition of progress in your link and it fits perfectly...
> 
> "The money is a fraction of what’s needed, and the process is moving at the speed of government."


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Oxankle said:


> I refuse to feel any guilt; had they the technology and know-how the Indians would have wiped out the Europeans, but they were just savages, ignorant of anything beyond hunt, gather, grow a few crops, war. Once they had the horse, those who had them rained death and destruction on their neighbors. How about some criticism of those people? Such retrospective guilt as liberals attempt to peddle is nonsense.



You forgot thick-skinned, which helps, both then and now.
Being near naked savages out in the weather all the time like a pack of wild animals, having a thicker layer of skin was one of the ways we survived our ignorance.
Nowadays it helps deflect the ignorance of others.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> Interesting about the keys, but @mreynolds is right, firsthand info is best.
> Several of our clients with vacation rentals up here in WNC live in South Florida. They all have either sold and moved inward and northward (like Miami to Lauderdale) or are trying to sell now, going from beachside homes to condos.
> All said that parts of Miami are regularly flooded now and they're trying to build seawalls to prevent it.
> Sometimes big cities get a "so what" response, possibly thinking these are rich transplants who had bad luck on a good investment and can afford the loss.
> ...


Gilchrist Texas is about 2 feet above sea level. I have been going there for 40 years and no increase in the level. There have been a lot of erosion though. They are constantly combating it. When they dredge the canal they pump it back out to the beach. Then the tide washes it back out into the canal.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's that word and that implication appearing yet again.
> Here's a "historical fact" for you.
> Drunk drivers kill more people than assault weapons.


And sober drivers kill more people than drunk drivers, wouldn't surprise me to learn sober drivers kill more people than drunk drivers and assault rifles combined!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> This is exactly the *lack of education* of facts that causes arguing FOR pollution





JeepHammer said:


> There is nothing you can do when the *cult dogma keeps getting repeated*, and anyone that disagrees is a 'Leftist', or what every *derogatory name* they can come up with to deflect from their *lack of education*.


You say the same things again and again, all the while doing the exact things of which you are accusing others.

Patterns never change.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mreynolds said:


> Gilchrist Texas is about 2 feet above sea level. I have been going there for 40 years and no increase in the level. There have been a lot of erosion though. They are constantly combating it. When they dredge the canal they pump it back out to the beach. Then the tide washes it back out into the canal.


I'm sure that's part of it too. Most of Miami Beach and surrounding islands were built by dredging and filling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Beach,_Florida
Sometimes Mother Nature takes her stuff back.

Info on past sea levels are worth noting too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami



> The surface bedrock under the Miami area is called Miami oolite or Miami limestone. This bedrock is covered by a thin layer of soil, and is no more than 50 feet (15 m) thick. Miami limestone formed as the result of the drastic changes in sea level associated with recent glacial periods, or ice ages. Beginning some 130,000 years ago, the Sangamonian Stage raised sea levels to approximately 25 feet (8 m) above the current level. All of southern Florida was covered by a shallow sea. Several parallel lines of reef formed along the edge of the submerged Florida plateau, stretching from the present Miami area to what is now the Dry Tortugas. The area behind this reef line was in effect a large lagoon, and the Miami limestone formed throughout the area from the deposition of oolites and the shells of bryozoans. Starting about 100,000 years ago, the Wisconsin glaciationbegan lowering sea levels, exposing the floor of the lagoon. By 15,000 years ago, the sea level had dropped 300 to 350 feet (90 to 110 m) below the current level. The sea level rose quickly after that, stabilizing at the current level about 4,000 years ago, leaving the mainland of South Florida just above sea level.[35]
> 
> Beneath the plain lies the Biscayne Aquifer, a natural underground source of fresh water that extends from southern Palm Beach County to Florida Bay. It comes closest to the surface around the cities of Miami Springs and Hialeah.[36] Most of the Miami metropolitan area obtains its drinking water from the Biscayne Aquifer. As a result of the aquifer, it is not possible to dig more than 15 to 20 ft (5 to 6 m) beneath the city without hitting water, which impedes underground construction, though some underground parking garages exist. For this reason, the mass transit systems in and around Miami are elevated or at-grade.[35]


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> @Shine lives in Fl, I think more towards the center part, but he would probably have direct knowledge of anyone experiencing any effects of coastal sea level changes.


There a many important places here that have been 10' & less above sea level for decades, this is what I base my estimations on... Do a Google Street View on Ashley Blvd, Tampa and look how close the water level is, unless they're citing single digit millimeters as the annual change, I do not see the urgency in Ocean Rise that they are speaking of...


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Shine said:


> There a many important places here that have been 10' & less above sea level for decades, this is what I base my estimations on... Do a Google Street View on Ashley Blvd, Tampa and look how close the water level is, unless they're citing single digit millimeters as the annual change, I do not see the urgency in Ocean Rise that they are speaking of...


3 meters would destroy Florida.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Oxankle said:


> There is no arguing with one who is determined to be guilty.
> The "Experts" have nothing solid to go on--conjecture from old buildings, the early records of Europeans, from artifacts.
> Warring cultures in primitive societies always had trouble maintaining their numbers.
> I refuse to feel any guilt; had they the technology and know-how the Indians would have wiped out the Europeans, but they were just savages, ignorant of anything beyond hunt, gather, grow a few crops, war. Once they had the horse, those who had them rained death and destruction on their neighbors. How about some criticism of those people? Such retrospective guilt as liberals attempt to peddle is nonsense.


There it is again,
Deny facts, make accusations, call names, in general just squirm...

First off, 'Liberal' isn't an insult, progressive, open to change, new information & new ideas isn't a bad thing.
Liberals founded the US and all democracy governments.
There are no conservatives on Mt. Rushmore.

Victim blaming/name calling to dehumanize those native Americans doesn't change the fact they were human beings.
Then there is the "They would have killed us!" victim blaming,
Actually the records are pretty clear, the Spanish were not only welcomed, but treated like gods until they showed their true intentions.
After the Spanish I can see why the natives didn't want Europeans in the neighborhood.

There is also the issue of EVERY European civilization warring constantly...

Then there is the misdirection of 'Guilt'...
I didn't massacre anyone for their land/natural resources, religion, etc.

Do anything, say anything to keep from admitting humans as a whole are simply broken, flawed, we (as a species) like to murder each other...
We (as groups) use all kinds of excuses, religion, politics, invisible lines on a map, natural resources, the only thing humans have been exceptionally good at is murdering/plundering.

---------------

Knowing ones true self, our base instincts, and setting limits is one way to stop such behaviors.
The fact we need so many laws against these things is one proof of our base instincts.
History is another proof of these base instincts.

Personally, my therapy is to farm & work.
Like I said in another thread, setting booby traps to kill thieves is across the line, the punishment should fit the crime.
Since I don't deny actual science facts, I cut my fossil fuels emissions way back.
I assessed the difference between 'Need' & 'Want', and think about how much energy/resources went into whatever I 'Want'.
I actively call the social engineering propaganda B.S. and point out it's neither true or helpful.
I pay my bills, I pay my taxes, I do my duty to the Constitution that affords me protections.

... And I take a continuous river of crap from those that can't or won't connect the dots.
It's the way cults operate, changing the same thing over and over again, denying anything that doesn't go it the chanted dogma, attacking in force when confronted.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> It's the way cults operate


I *cult* myself this past week cutting a piece of stainless steel. It was a minor cut though and I didn't even realize it until I washed my hands later. Couldn't even see it. 

My advice? Don't get so worked up. Go pull a few onions and potatoes and make a soup.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Here is an interesting TIDBIT of news to ponder upon. 
*Russia under Putin has just signed the Paris Climate Accord. * 
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...behind-putin-s-lukewarm-embrace-of-paris-pact 
There's a BIG Surprise ! * Russia has been actively funding, sponsoring & promoting fossil fuels and Climate Impact denialism worldwide.* Their focus has always been the development & sale of their Oil & Gas Reserves to the world, much of which was politically Land Locked while the Soviet Union existed and remained in the ground as a result.

So.... how many of you are unwittingly being used & manipulated by big Russian Oil & Gas ? Who knows, maybe some, maybe all or maybe none... But when you think about who & what is sponsoring, funding & pushing the Denialist Campaigns you should really think on it... Something everyone everywhere knows... It is far easier to attack an enemy from Within them from without (outside) and the whole denialism shtick has cost the USA Billions of dollars and thousands of jobs while also turning it into a Laggard in a whole industry when it shoudl & could have been a Global Leader and took point, which now China has with little effort, thanks to the Denialists hobbling the USA.

Keep supporting OIl & Gas with the Russian Agenda or get America off the foreign oil nipples and take the lead & do something to grow the Nation positively. Do American soldiers really have to go fight ion Saudi Arabia for their filthy oil which makes their "king & princes rich" on your hard earned bucks & the lives of US troops ? MADNESS !


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> Gilchrist Texas is about 2 feet above sea level. I have been going there for 40 years and no increase in the level. There have been a lot of erosion though. They are constantly combating it. When they dredge the canal they pump it back out to the beach. Then the tide washes it back out into the canal.


Sea level is higher in FL than it is in TX


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Steve_S said:


> Here is an interesting TIDBIT of news to ponder upon.
> *Russia under Putin has just signed the Paris Climate Accord. *
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...behind-putin-s-lukewarm-embrace-of-paris-pact
> There's a BIG Surprise ! * Russia has been actively funding, sponsoring & promoting fossil fuels and Climate Impact denialism worldwide.* Their focus has always been the development & sale of their Oil & Gas Reserves to the world, much of which was politically Land Locked while the Soviet Union existed and remained in the ground as a result.
> ...


What are people denying?

Are they denying that people can reverse climate change?

Are they denying that climate change is happening?

Big difference


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Geez Louise…. denialists in all forms. 
- The ones denying that Climate Change is happening at all.
- The ones denying that climate change is affected by humanity and it's emissions (7.5 billions souls make lots of pollution)
- The ones denying that the Fossil Fuel industry is a major contributor..
--- Those spreading "fear of loss" over things which they would not lose but rather just transition to new tech... 
--- Those pushing irrational arguments to create an emotional & political climate to counter progress forward....


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You are correct. Climate change is happening just as it has since day 1.
You are correct again. 7.5 billion people do make a lot of trash.
Take 8 people to work every morning and back home that evening in a Honda Prius and see how clean they keep it, regardless of how much they try.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

HDRider said:


> Sea level is higher in FL than it is in TX


I don't have all the data for that particular question, but there's probably more truth to that than you might expect. 

https://e360.yale.edu/features/flooding-hot-spots-why-seas-are-rising-faster-on-the-u.s.-east-coast



> Around the world, sea levels are not rising equally like water in a bathtub. The oceans are more akin to a rubber kiddie pool where the water sloshes around unevenly, often considerably higher on one side than another.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> Don't people have the right to do what they feel is best? Despite what you (collective you) might think? Mocking, belittling, name calling, etc. other members (or their ideals) should be beneath those that post here. Not nice. Not helpful. Not surprising.


To quote Jordan Peterson (in my own words) "You need to get your own house in order before you have the right to preach to others". 

Kids that ride in cars, fly in planes, have an Iphone, have the latest designer clothes, use electric lights, heat and cool their homes, access the Internet, use social media, etc haven't earned the right to preach to others. If they aren't willing to make the changes in their own lives and in their family's lives, and in their neighborhoods lives, why do they think they have earned the right to lecture the world? Answer - they haven't.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> I don't have all the data for that particular question, but there's probably more truth to that than you might expect.
> 
> https://e360.yale.edu/features/flooding-hot-spots-why-seas-are-rising-faster-on-the-u.s.-east-coast


Almost all the changes in sea level are due to rising and falling of tectonic plates. It's like taking a bowl of water sitting on a stair tread and moving it to a different stair-- the depth of water stays the same, the height of the bowl changes.

This "GW" thing is now a full fledged religion: "confess your environment sins to NBC on its web-site." If you don't believe, you are not just a denier, you are a sinner.

Would someone please show me even ONE scientific study that shows co2 is responsible for ANY changes in weather? It's all a THEORY without ANY experimental evidence to support it. The only "proof" is computer models, and computer models just tell you what you programmed them to tell you. It's no more science proving GW than DaVinci's famous painting "proves" that Christ sat at a long table with His disciples all sitting on the same side as Him....[That painting always reminds me of Kramer and the set of the Merv Griffith Show that he pulled out of the trash bin, then sat there pretending there was an audience. If they really sat that way at The Last Supper, who were they playing to? ]


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

doc- said:


> Almost all the changes in sea level are due to rising and falling of tectonic plates. It's like taking a bowl of water sitting on a stair tread and moving it to a different stair-- the depth of water stays the same, the height of the bowl changes.
> 
> This "GW" thing is now a full fledged religion: "confess your environment sins to NBC on its web-site." If you don't believe, you are not just a denier, you are a sinner.
> 
> Would someone please show me even ONE scientific study that shows co2 is responsible for ANY changes in weather? It's all a THEORY without ANY experimental evidence to support it. The only "proof" is computer models, and computer models just tell you what you programmed them to tell you. It's no more science proving GW than DaVinci's famous painting "proves" that Christ sat at a long table with His disciples all sitting on the same side as Him....[That painting always reminds me of Kramer and the set of the Merv Griffith Show that he pulled out of the trash bin, then sat there pretending there was an audience. If they really sat that way at The Last Supper, who were they playing to? ]


The point was that sea level isn't exactly the same on every shoreline. This big ole ball we're on rock and roll's while it spins and the water sloshes a bit, lol.
As far as the science of chemistry goes, CO2 ALWAYS has an effect on weather and the life below on earth. It has from the beginning and continues to this day. I can entertain debates on the CAUSES, but the effects are empirically provable.
They are also self correcting and the increase or decrease has results that some of the doomsday proclaimers aren't taking into consideration. When the earth has had higher CO2 levels in the past, the plant life flourished and produced more oxygen in return, thereby correcting the balance.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/carbon-dioxide-and-climate/
It's never a bad idea to be good stewards of the planet while we're here, but that includes not letting greedy governments lead you down the wrong path in their quest for money and power.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

doc- said:


> This "GW" thing is now a full fledged religion: "confess your environment sins to NBC on its web-site." If you don't believe, you are not just a denier, you are a sinner.
> 
> Would someone please show me even ONE scientific study that shows co2 is responsible for ANY changes in weather? It's all a THEORY without ANY experimental evidence to support it. The only "proof" is computer models, and computer models just tell you what you programmed them to tell you. It's no more science proving GW than DaVinci's famous painting "proves" that Christ sat at a long table ]


Science is supposed to based on facts and factual evidence. That is, at least was, the core definition.
When basing "science" on unconfirmable computer models, speculation, flawed carbon dating, etc, then theories become based on theories.
People get duped into believing these theories because they either are unaware how to or are unwilling to research and determine just how wrong some of these paid influencers are.
Many of the misinformed who knock religion, or skeptics, ironically behave in the same manner as those they mock.
Sometimes it looks like a cattle call.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

farmrbrown said:


> It's never a bad idea to be good stewards of the planet while we're here, but that includes not letting greedy governments lead you down the wrong path in their quest for money and power.


Yes, I agree, and we should all be, in spite of the media, the pols, the guilt edged propagandists, the violent activists and the low information intellectuals.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

On the sea level thing and owners of beach-front property selling and moving inland:
People who build on sea-level property or on low land have to KNOW that at one time or another the land will flood. It is a fact of life. Perhaps next year, maybe fifty years down the road, but it will flood. That has been true forever. 

HOWEVER; There is another factor at play in Florida. Many of these rich retirees who have the beach front homes are old, some even WWII vets. They want out, their children don't want the places, they are too old to boat and fish, they cannot do much but sit and look. That is happening all over. Unless there are new waves of retirees those places not washed away will still go begging. I know of one place in Texas that completely washed away in Carla. I saw it with only a pipe sticking up out of a slab here and there. Now it is a bustling resort town with expensive homes all around. Another piece of Swamp outside Rockport, Tx is filled with expensive homes. I'd not give a nickle for one of those unless I had a guaranteed 100% pre-paid insurance policy on it. Those places WILL one day wash away.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> To quote Jordan Peterson (in my own words) "You need to get your own house in order before you have the right to preach to others".
> 
> Kids that ride in cars, fly in planes, have an Iphone, have the latest designer clothes, use electric lights, heat and cool their homes, access the Internet, use social media, etc haven't earned the right to preach to others. If they aren't willing to make the changes in their own lives and in their family's lives, and in their neighborhoods lives, why do they think they have earned the right to lecture the world? Answer - they haven't.


I'm unsure on what topics I'm allowed an opinion, so I can't respond to your post at this time.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

We were in Florida a few years ago with my mother in law. As we were driving along the coast she just marveled at the enormous beach homes on stilts that lined the water's edge.
"My goodness" she said "with all of the hurricanes they have down here, who would want to live there? And what company would insure them?" Lol.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yep.
Locals everywhere get those kinds of questions from tourists passing thru. They say the same thing when they look at homes way up on the mountainsides in the Blue Ridge too.
"Who would live there? How do they get around? What happens if.....?"
I don't flip out over hurricanes in the summer or snowstorms in the winter. A little common sense and survival skills goes a long way.
I've lived in both places and learned to love and appreciate it. To each his own.
Just realize that when you see people living somewhere as they have for centuries, just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean you're smarter than they are.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm unsure on what topics I'm allowed an opinion, so I can't respond to your post at this time.


Cultures always had their ways of grooming children for adulthood. We seem to have lost that in today's culture. Peterson's 1st rule is "Clean your room". A symbolic step toward becoming a responsible person. 

I'm sure you have earned the right to speak as an expert on many subjects, but not all. For me, wisdom is recognizing the difference. Most children have not learned enough to be an expert on anything.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> Cultures always had their ways of grooming children for adulthood. We seem to have lost that in today's culture. Peterson's 1st rule is "Clean your room". A symbolic step toward becoming a responsible person.
> 
> I'm sure you have earned the right to speak as an expert on many subjects, but not all. For me, wisdom is recognizing the difference. Most children have not learned enough to be an expert on anything.


I am unable to be certain I can have an opinion on this subject due to the original (Peterson) thread. Therefore, I cannot comment.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm unsure on what topics I'm allowed an opinion, so I can't respond to your post at this time.


Go ahead. You have permission.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Farmer: You are correct to a point. If the people know the odds and still wish to risk it, more power to them. However, what we have now are people with no idea of what they are getting it to. Some KNOW and depend on the taxpayer to build sea walls and provide subsidized insurance. 

Still others make a living on the water and must live close by, some cannot afford to live elsewhere, some are bound by family ties they are loath to break. These are informed people, they know the risks and take pains to minimize them. You seldom see a fisherman's house on low ground, and his boats go up the river or to safe harbor if he can get them there in time. 

I grew up on the coast, I have worked on the water and I lived thru three major hurricanes. One of those put us in a boxcar on the railroad track for the night. The track was on the highest ground around, had a loading platform level with the boxcar floors. I put our milk cow under the platform, the family got inside. Our dogs (outside dogs) took care of themselves. The cow was pretty smart--when I led her to the platform she got the idea instantly and went under that thing as if she had lived there all her life. Stood between the joists until I came to get her, crawled out as if we did that daily.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Go ahead. You have permission.


You'd like it if I were banned, wouldn't you?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> You'd like it if I were banned, wouldn't you?


It would take all the joy out of HT


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm unsure on what topics I'm allowed an opinion, so I can't respond to your post at this time.


This topic is on your list for this week.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)




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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


>


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> 3 meters would destroy Florida.


Yes, does it all come at once or is it like a slow tsunami? What I am saying is that there has been no appreciable water level rise. The sea walls are still about the same as when I went fishing as a kid.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)




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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

JeepHammer said:


> It's a fairly well studided and documented fact that around 52 million natives died because of European invasion.


And the vast majority of those died of infection by disease, not having any immunity.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> And the vast majority of those died of infection by disease, not having any immunity.


That's correct.
Like when they were given blankets by the white man infected with small pox.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SRSLADE said:


> That's correct.
> Like when they were given blankets by the white man infected with small pox.


Immunization?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

SRSLADE said:


> That's correct.
> Like when they were given blankets by the white man infected with small pox.


That was actually a rare occurrence. The vast majority died without the knowledge or intent of the Europeans.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Farmerga said:


> That was actually a rare occurrence. The vast majority died without the knowledge or intent of the Europeans.


Right, but when Euros learned of their weakness they exploited it with germ warfare


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

HDRider said:


> Right, but when Euros learned of their weakness they exploited it with germ warfare


By that time the vast majority of NA's were already dead. Face it, the Europeans won the war and largely replaced the NA's not unlike the Cherokee won the war and replaced those who came before them, or, the Creeks, Or, the Sioux... The Anglo-Saxons won the war and largely replaced the Celts in England. It is a story as long history itself. You don't hear Julius Cesar quoted as saying "I came, I concurred, I felt really bad about it" now do you?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Farmerga said:


> By that time the vast majority of NA's were already dead. Face it, the Europeans won the war and largely replaced the NA's not unlike the Cherokee won the war and replaced those who came before them, or, the Creeks, Or, the Sioux... The Anglo-Saxons won the war and largely replaced the Celts in England. It is a story as long history itself. You don't hear Julius Cesar quoted as saying "I came, I concurred, I felt really bad about it" now do you?


No doubt about it. The Indians lost. Let's celebrate on their grave.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

HDRider said:


> No doubt about it. The Indians lost. Let's celebrate on their grave.


Who is celebrating? I am simply stating historical facts.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> Who is celebrating? I am simply stating historical facts.


I see no facts.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Farmerga said:


> Who is celebrating? I am simply stating historical facts.


You basically said, "to the victors go the spoils".


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

HDRider said:


> You basically said, "to the victors go the spoils".


Is that not historically accurate?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

SRSLADE said:


> I see no facts.


What do you dispute exactly?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Farmerga said:


> Is that not historically accurate?


Of course it is accurate.

I can't say I derive a lot of pride out of the way Indians were treated.

A victory with no pride seems wrong to me. I am proud of what we did to defeat Nazis and the Emperor of Japan. I am proud of how we fought for our independence from Britain.

I am not proud of what we did to the Indians


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I'm not sure how the Indians currently feel about how they treated competing tribes and other types thats stumbled thru the brush 600 years ago. Anybody? Please wait for the person before you to finish speaking please.
Do you suppose the 3rd generation from now of the Chinese will sympathize with how their government treated the poor gullible American consumer, while they go thru the American Historical Museum in what was formerly known as Idaho?
Is there a google image somewhere of the original deed?
Be interesting to see a signature.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> I'm not sure how the Indians currently feel about how they treated competing tribes and other types thats stumbled thru the brush 600 years ago. Anybody? Please wait for the person before you to finish speaking please.
> Do you suppose the 3rd generation from now of the Chinese will sympathize with how their government treated the poor gullible American consumer, while they go thru the American Historical Museum in what was formerly known as Idaho?
> Is there a google image somewhere of the original deed?
> Be interesting to see a signature.


I am sure you think you have some point in there, maybe even more than one. In reality it was gibberish, and I suspect an attempt to assuage some guilt you might feel, but would never admit.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

HDRider said:


> I am not proud of what we did to the Indians


That is the thing that gets us. "We" did nothing. The Indian wars ended over 100 years ago. No one alive today participated.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Farmerga said:


> That is the thing that gets us. "We" did nothing. The Indian wars ended over 100 years ago. No one alive today participated.


Correct, you and I did not have a direct hand in it, and I never said we did. The "we" was in reference to "our" heritage, "our" history.

You can justify it any way you want.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, however uneducated and informed it might be. You obviously didn't attend College.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

SRSLADE said:


> That's correct.
> Like when they were given blankets by the white man infected with small pox.


Biological warfare such as the blankets from small pox hospitals, known small pox carriers (and other diseases) were also employed to trade and live among native tribes.

Chemical warfare also, poisoned food like flour, sugar, whiskey/methyl alcohol & meat were also used.

Let's not forget starvation as a weapon, in 1840 as many as 60 million buffalo, but in 1886 a scientific study could find fewer than 100 free ranging buffalo.
The government gave away bullets, rifles and sponsored buffalo killing expeditions, with the pointed objective of removing the primary food source of the plains tribes.

The historical fact is the US is the only country to openly use chemical, biological and nuclear as weapons.
Plutonium was injected into US citizens, civilians, to study the effects, and the US used two nuclear bombs on civilian population centers during WWII.

---------

It's education in the face of ignorance (which education cures) or willful stupidity.
There is no 'Alternative History', either it happened or it didn't, nothing in between.

When you have an education, particularly history, you take the good with the bad.
If you have any morals, ethics, or a 'soul' you try not to repeat those mistakes,
The way not to repeat mistakes, and try to do some corrections is an education and action.

You can't do anything with someone that actively denies what's happening, like cows running into a burning barn, there is nothing you can do for them other than close the barn door.

Some examples are 'Gun Rights' people. Guns are things, not people, they don't have rights.
(And since the NRA is an advertiser on this forum, I'm sure that opinion will get me in trouble)
The actual people, Constitutional 2A supporters, simply refuse to sit down to help figure out how to slowdown or stop mass shootings.
I have a vault full of firearms and I would be willing to discuss how to keep firearms out of the hands of unstable PEOPLE, even if it inconveniences me to some reasonable degree.
My education on the subject allows me to know that most firearms in the US are concentrated in/owned by about 30% of the population.
That leaves a 70% majority that can, if organized, amend the Constitution if necessary...
Since I'm not a criminal, or on the 'Fringe', and have passed all kinds of background checks already, including for full automatic firearms, I really don't see an issue with going through a dealer for the background check when I buy/sell.

Since wind energy is price competitive with natural gas, and a watt is a watt, the end consumer doesn't care where the watts come from, and wind doesn't release toxic waste, there simply isn't an argument for natural gas where wind is available.

Everyone has a roof.
Every roof can sport solar panels.
Simply having solar panels on new construction, and added to existing homes when they change hands increases cost very little, but adds to the value of the home.
An increase in solar panels means price drops with higher volume (efficiency in volume) and much of the load is taken off a crumbling power grid, along with reduction in fossil fuel consumption.

I have no argument with electric vehicles since they do exactly the same job without producing toxic emissions. As older gas/diesel burners die from old age, they simply get replaced with EV.

Just like the first water system and sewer laws, you will have to drag a few kicking and screaming away from their well water right next to the out house pit for everyone's sake.
Typhoid, cholera etc doesn't care where his property line is...
Simply closing the barn door so the livestock can't get back into a burning barn.

For those of us old enough to remember when Americans embraced technology advancement, before bad actors got into social engineering in a big way, better farm equipment made more food, safer cars kept people from dying/being maimed, etc.
With social engineering in the hands of bad actors, enough money means a counter productive viewpoint is broadcast longer, louder, repeated more often and sold more convincingly than the truth/facts.
Equalivent to a cult chanting nearly continuously in your ear...

It's up to everyone to *TRY* and filter out the bad actors...
Some will drink the cool-aid, be 'Newly Converted' and preach it endless at the top of their lungs,
Some will question it and be worn down over time.
Some will figure it out and just ignore the garbage when they recognize it.
Some will point out the lies, and method of delivery when they are confronted with it...
Those people won't stoop to the level of the bad actors, so it won't be nearly as LOUD, and there won't be the name calling, division, 'Us Against Them' mentality.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Well, you are entitled to your opinion, however uneducated and informed it might be. You obviously didn't attend College.


Actually I did.

I am also a student of the American Indian, and early American history.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

There is a general heritage, but everyone has a unique background,
farmerga may be 100% scandenavian; or irish/cherokee/moore.
Why would he, or I carry any remorse if we have no accurate or complete knowledge of our patriarch's thoughts, beliefs, actions and behaviors? If they were dirty sobs, other than to a select few, I'm not.
Blaming a race for slavery aligns with blaming a great grandchild for racism.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> There is a general heritage, but everyone has a unique background,
> farmerga may be 100% scandenavian; or irish/cherokee/moore.
> Why would he, or I carry any remorse if we have no accurate or complete knowledge of our patriarch's thoughts, beliefs, actions and behaviors? If they were dirty sobs, other than to a select few, I'm not.
> Blaming a race for slavery aligns with blaming a great grandchild for racism.


I am an American. With that I carry the pride, and the knowledge of our history, ever how stained.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> The historical fact is the US is the only country to openly use chemical, biological and nuclear as weapons.
> Plutonium was injected into US citizens, civilians, to study the effects, and the US used two nuclear bombs on civilian population centers during WWII.


Well, it's Monday as you are still wrong.
If that was your old term paper it would be full of red ink.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Throughout history there have been winners and losers, with many bloody conquests in all parts of the world. Genocides were not out of the ordinary. Was it right or wrong, it's wrong of course. Learning from actions is optimum.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Just as an example, the poor Cherokee slob, who's ancestors walked the trail of tears, whose children were born to whites and continued thru the caucasian line until today; he may have no knowledge of any of his past. Guilt would just be a bag someone handed him that doesn't belong. He is an American today. History is a lesson to learn from not a sentence to endure.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Slob?

Can you not reflect on anything and not offer an insult?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

It was self deprecating.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Slob?
> 
> Can you not reflect on anything and not offer an insult?


I don't believe so, an absloute sense of entitlement, can do no wrong, which by definition means no one else can be 'Right' unless they are agreeing with him, but they are still sub-standard to him in his opinion.

---------



GTX63 said:


> Well, it's Monday as you are still wrong.
> If that was your old term paper it would be full of red ink.


That's your opinion opposed to actual facts.
Since you offered no specifics of what you think was 'Wrong', without offering any documentation, not even an alt.right version,
Just a decree 'From On High' with nothing to support the opinion...

_-----------

Small pox was used as a biological weapon against native americans, the use of small pox infected blankets & small pox carriers is well documented. Small pox is one of 4 diseases used as biological weapons that's documented, actually written about BEFORE the deed was done.

https://www.history.org/foundation/journal/spring04/warfare.cfm

The US government did test radioactive substances on unsuspecting US citizens...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States

https://allthatsinteresting.com/human-radiation-experiments-united-states-government

Keep in mind the base information comes directly from the US Government itself...

-----------

Or were you disputing the US used nuclear weapons on civilian populations during WWII?
The FACT the weapons were dropped on civilian cities instead of sprawling military assets is in the name of cities, not 'Fort' or 'Naval Base' what ever...
Hiroshima was a secondary CITY target, the largest city and intended primary target was Tokyo, which was obscured by cloud cover the day the first weapon was delivered...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

--------

Or was it the wind generation coming equal to natural gas in cost terms per watt?
Since you have been screaming a pro-pollution stance in every conversation about renewable power production...
Keep in mind the base source is US Government information under the Trump adminstration.

https://arstechnica.com/science/201...now-lower-than-the-cost-of-natural-gas/?amp=1

------------

No one can do much of anything with an ignorant or misinformed population other than to 'Child Proof' them from themselves, which is a shame that adults with at least 12 years of free education available to the choose to believe the social engineering and not recognize it for what it is...


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

HDRider said:


> Correct, you and I did not have a direct hand in it, and I never said we did. The "we" was in reference to "our" heritage, "our" history.
> 
> You can justify it any way you want.


We just didn't have any direct hand in it, we had absolutely nothing to do with it. It is history. We cannot atone for the actions of others, nor should we try. I am part Irish, the British were very hard on my ancestors. Do today's British owe me anything? No. I am also part African, some of my ancestors were slaves in the US. Does the present day descendants of those slave owners owe me anything? No. (In fact, I may be a descendant of those slave owners.)

You see, there is no need to justify it, or, degrade it. It is history. The people involved are long dead. We should know it, honor it where appropriate and learn from it all. We can learn from the good and bad of history. To feel sorry for people who are dead, or, anger at other people who are dead is silly.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

JeepHammer said:


> don't believe so, an absloute sense of entitlement, can do no wrong, which by definition means no one else can be 'Right' unless they are agreeing with him, but they are still sub-standard to him in his opinion.


If you could dispense with the leftist buzz words for a moment, you may realize that HIS/HER fore fathers and mothers walked the trail. And the term "slob" was pointed inward.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Whohoooo....did not expect to cause such a havoc here...
Pretty dangerous to post anything besides project stuff on this page...seems to always derail and end in some havoc...
Either way...
Thx and may u all have a great start into the new week...


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Farmerga said:


> *We just didn't have any direct hand in it*, we had absolutely nothing to do with it. It is history. We cannot atone for the actions of others, nor should we try. I am part Irish, the British were very hard on my ancestors. Do today's British owe me anything? No. I am also part African, some of my ancestors were slaves in the US. Does the present day descendants of those slave owners owe me anything? No. (In fact, I may be a descendant of those slave owners.)
> 
> You see, there is no need to justify it, or, degrade it. It is history. The people involved are long dead. We should know it, honor it where appropriate and learn from it all. We can learn from the good and bad of history. To feel sorry for people who are dead, or, anger at other people who are dead is silly.


That is what I said.

History is meant to be a lesson for the future. 

I did not ask anyone to apologize, to pay, or to atone in any matter.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Farmerga said:


> If you could dispense with the leftist buzz words for a moment, you may realize that *HIS/HER fore fathers and mothers walked the trail*. And the term "slob" was pointed inward.


Where did they say that?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

HDRider said:


> Where did they say that?


#212 was clear. #210 was obvious to me.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Farmerga said:


> #212 was clear. #210 was obvious to me.


My mind reading skills, or reading between the line skills, are dull.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

HDRider said:


> That is what I said.
> 
> History is meant to be a lesson for the future.
> 
> I did not ask anyone to apologize, to pay, or to atone in any matter.


The acid test is when we learn from history and don't repeat the bad parts over & over.

There is no justification for genocide of civilians, conventional weapons, chemical, biological, nuclear, starvation, pollution of the biosphere...
None at all.
No religion, no political viewpoint, no resources, no amount of money that justifies genocide. Period.

Anyone that believes there is justification for genocide should be dropped into the target side and see how long it takes for reality to take hold and the 'Opinion' to change...
It's a question of ethics & morals, some people just don't have any thinking the means justifies the end result. Which of course is insanity by definition...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> Just as an example, the poor Cherokee slob, who's ancestors walked the trail of tears, whose children were born to whites and continued thru the caucasian line until today; he may have no knowledge of any of his past. Guilt would just be a bag someone handed him that doesn't belong. He is an American today. History is a lesson to learn from not a sentence to endure.


This is idiotic at face value.
'The poor Cherokee slob' and 'Whose children were born of whites'....

First off, there were a bunch of tribes on the 'Trail Of Tears', not just Cherokee,
They were native Americans, not 'Slobs',
And 'Whites' don't have native American children, or vice-versa.

----------



GTX63 said:


> It was self deprecating.


No, attempt to deflect/dodge what you just wrote when you got called on how degrading your previous post was.

-----------



Farmerga said:


> If you could dispense with the leftist buzz words for a moment, you may realize that HIS/HER fore fathers and mothers walked the trail. And the term "slob" was pointed inward.


First of all, calling people names for pointing out the obvious insults to native Americans isn't 'Leftist', it's simply not allowing that insult to go unchallenged, and since GTX63 put it in writing on a public forum, it's not unreasonable for people to call him on it.

Nowhere in that particular diatribe did he indicate he *Claimed* to have native American heritage, therefore an insult at face value.
We can skip the screwed up biology lesson about whites giving birth to native Americans or vice-versa...

On face value it was both historically incorrect, biologically incorrect, and insulting to both native Americans & common sense, which is why he got called out on it in the first place.
I have no idea why you jumped in to defend him since it was there in writing, and obviously he makes plenty of mistakes, I was documenting one of his other proclaimed from on high statements to be false when this occurred...

In particular, this one directed at me...



GTX63 said:


> Well, it's Monday as you are still wrong.
> If that was your old term paper it would be full of red ink.


----------



## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

THread that derailed, sidetracked, went in & out of politics, race & even religion and YET it continues to have a PULSE...

I have watched, added a few minor blurps and laughed at how sadly pathetic this has boiled down too... Certainly appears that some have absolutely no sense of how they come across and even oblivious to how it reflects on them.... 

Good thing that it's all Anonymous Names behind Keyboards spewing whatever grabs their fancy, but a word of caution, you may be very emboldened on the internet BUT be careful of bringing your "web character" into the public, could get your block knocked off.

*Seriously, this thread should have seen it's day a long time ago, when some forwarded the idea of harming children... * Harm those that will care for us in our old age, be the police, doctors, nurses & politico's of tomorrow... how genius is that.... Funny thing, it's been noticed outside of this site too... not for good either.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

JeepHammer said:


> And 'Whites' don't have native American children, or vice-versa.


 You only have to have 1/16 Cherokee blood to be enrolled in the Cherokee nation, so, the fact is that many whites and other races do indeed have NA children. Chief John Ross was only 1/8th blood. 



JeepHammer said:


> No, attempt to deflect/dodge what you just wrote when you got called on how degrading your previous post was.


 It was obvious that the "slob" was himself. Your inability to catch that is not his problem.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Steve_S said:


> THread that derailed, sidetracked, went in & out of politics, race & even religion and YET it continues to have a PULSE...
> 
> I have watched, added a few minor blurps and laughed at how sadly pathetic this has boiled down too... Certainly appears that some have absolutely no sense of how they come across and even oblivious to how it reflects on them....
> 
> ...


Thanks coach.


----------



## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

I join the young in being extremely concerned about the environment of the planet which will also enormously impact the economy of their future. But getting older people to change is very hard especially as the young have very little political influence. But then again the young were the ones who stopped the Vietnam war so I would not count them out.

So many warnings. 3 billion birds have disappeared from North America since 1970. This is very obvious to those of us who remember how full and noisy the sky and trees were. So not bug hunters and more chemicals to contaminate our soil, air, water and of course food.

And 13 million North Americans will become climate refugees having to move away from the shores. Already starting and also an economical impact as insurance companies are no longer willing to pay and governments are offering to buy homeowners out (and not for very much) to move them on as they will no longer be able to supply infrastructure to many areas.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Farmerga said:


> You only have to have 1/16 Cherokee blood to be enrolled in the Cherokee nation, so, the fact is that many whites and other races do indeed have NA children. Chief John Ross was only 1/8th blood.
> 
> It was obvious that the "slob" was himself. Your inability to catch that is not his problem.


There are just some folks having a sorrowful Monday.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Staying on track/topic/subject is difficult for 'Believers', those pesky facts keep getting in the way. 
You know, actual historical facts & actual science.

Attacking the little girl the thread was supposed to highlight was beyond dispicable.
I can only point out the rumors, lies and other non-sense that President Obama's family had to endure.
I don't know how many slurs, memes dipcting the Obama family as slaves, showing watermelons & junk in the White House yard, the Obamas shown as hood rats or some white supremacist idea of deep south field laborers from the turn of the 20th century...
While the so called 'Leftests' have called out their own when it comes to President Trump's minor son.

Deny, Deflect, Derail, Insult & Make Accusations is all first page of bad actors play book, first page of 'Deception 101'.
When the facts/science don't support the 'Dogma' do anything and everything to avoid the facts/science.

As for the veiled threat about what you say online coming to haunt you in the real world...
Nothing I wouldn't say to anyone's face.
I don't advocate for violence, I don't advocate white supremacy or any other racist/religious/extremist viewpoint.
You want a face to face meeting, then set it up, I'll accommodate.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

emdeengee said:


> I join the young in being extremely concerned about the environment of the planet which will also enormously impact the economy of their future. But getting older people to change is very hard especially as the young have very little political influence. But then again the young were the ones who stopped the Vietnam war so I would not count them out.
> 
> So many warnings. 3 billion birds have disappeared from North America since 1970. This is very obvious to those of us who remember how full and noisy the sky and trees were. So not bug hunters and more chemicals to contaminate our soil, air, water and of course food.
> 
> And 13 million North Americans will become climate refugees having to move away from the shores. Already starting and also an economical impact as insurance companies are no longer willing to pay and governments are offering to buy homeowners out (and not for very much) to move them on as they will no longer be able to supply infrastructure to many areas.


 Concern for the environment is a fine thing. What is not fine is using half baked theories to force people to bend to ones will. Using scare tactics to control people hampers those few who are actually really concerned about the environment and not so concerned about filling their own pockets. Bird deaths can be mostly traced to agricultural monocultures and disease. Some groups are actually increasing in number, waterfowl for instance.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> You only have to have 1/16 Cherokee blood to be enrolled in the Cherokee nation, so, the fact is that many whites and other races do indeed have NA children. Chief John Ross was only 1/8th blood.
> 
> It was obvious that the "slob" was himself. Your inability to catch that is not his problem.


One last time I will *ATTEMPT* to point out that none of what you wrote (or 'Believe') is what he wrote.
That is simply the fact of the matter, no one can guess what he didn't write.
What we have to work with is what HE DID WRITE...

And again I wonder what your motive is continuing to try to defend what someone else wrote?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Not sure who you are wanting to meet on this forum face to face so I won't speak for them. Violence is not the answer dude.
It is a homesteading forum, with the focus on homesteading.
Using facts when you post is helpful; owning up to error is even better. If you don't like members calling you on them I can't help that but the threat thing won't help you.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

One lesson about how people are unwilling to change has really stuck with me. My father-in-law was an agronomist and he was working with farmers during the dust bowl and depression. The US government had to PAY farmers to stop using the old practices that ruined the land. They were losing their land but would not believe that there was another way. Forced to change they found out that there was a better way.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Farmerga said:


> Concern for the environment is a fine thing. What is not fine is using half baked theories to force people to bend to ones will. Using scare tactics to control people hampers those few who are actually really concerned about the environment and not so concerned about filling their own pockets. Bird deaths can be mostly traced to agricultural monocultures and disease. Some groups are actually increasing in number, waterfowl for instance.


Plenty of folks are leaving the cities as well, but it is due to a different type of environment. Also a cause for concern.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

emdeengee said:


> One lesson about how people are unwilling to change has really stuck with me. My father-in-law was an agronomist and he was working with farmers during the dust bowl and depression. The US government had to PAY farmers to stop using the old practices that ruined the land. They were losing their land but would not believe that there was another way. Forced to change they found out that there was a better way.


Would you rather the government took your business/property for the benefit of someone else or would you rather lose it over your own decision making? There will be someone else who will fill our shoes once we are gone, including poor farmers.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

People who do not "believe" that there is climate change that is being affected by human behaviour always claim that the world is being conned. And yet they do not see just how much propaganda is aimed at them. Talk about being controlled.

So sad that environmental companies are making money on changes and yet the fact that fossil fuel industries are not only continuing to make money in the billions but determining our daily life and the future. Meanwhile they are sneakily taking over sustainable energy - using it or hiding it.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

JeepHammer said:


> One last time I will *ATTEMPT* to point out that none of what you wrote (or 'Believe') is what he wrote.


 I referenced what he wrote, so did you, the difference is that you seem to think you know his reasons for writing it. 


JeepHammer said:


> No, attempt to deflect/dodge what you just wrote when you got called on how degrading your previous post was.





JeepHammer said:


> And again I wonder what your motive is continuing to try to defend what someone else wrote?


 I defend the truth. It matters not who wrote it.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Ask yourself why this movement would move heaven and earth to get this young girl a platform in front of the most powerful governing bodies if they had a real case to be made.

Why do we need some well spoken child actor to plead the case of something that has such strong scientific proof?

Why isn't she going to China to beg they stop polluting on such a massive scale?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yep, propaganda is everywhere.
It isn't hard to get someone to go along with conservationism. It is harder to force them though.
It isn't hard to go along with different explanations for world issues.
It is when angles are force fed and then found fallible, distorted and hijacked for other purposes.
That was a generalization about multiple perspectives.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

emdeengee said:


> People who do not "believe" that there is climate change that is being affected by human behaviour always claim that the world is being conned. And yet they do not see just how much propaganda is aimed at them. Talk about being controlled.


 I know of few who don' t "believe" in climate change. There are those who see it as a natural progression of our planet that has occurred since time began. Sometimes the change is very slow, somethings pretty fast, but, it is a natural occurrence. 



emdeengee said:


> So sad that environmental companies are making money on changes and yet the fact that fossil fuel industries are not only continuing to make money in the billions but determining our daily life and the future. Meanwhile they are sneakily taking over sustainable energy - using it or hiding it.


 If FF companies are using sustainable energy, isn't that a good thing? Unless, of course, the goal is not environmental protection, but rather, taking down those pesky rich folks who won't tow the line? What technologies are the FF companies suppressing?


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> Not sure who you are wanting to meet on this forum face to face so I won't speak for them. Violence is not the answer dude.
> It is a homesteading forum, with the focus on homesteading.
> Using facts when you post is helpful; owning up to error is even better. If you don't like members calling you on them I can't help that but the threat thing won't help you.


Since you entirely twisted the meaning of my post, most notably the part about NON-Violance, and completely ignoring Steve S post about what you write can come back to you in the real world...

I'm willing to meet anyone that wants to debate issues.
At no point did I imply violence or threaten anyone. 

Just another attempt at misdirection, misinformation, and outright lies.
We have quite a few visitors every year, host students from the local collages that want to see off grid in action, I'm used to hosting debates with people having actual educations, so debating the dogma/propaganda/false is something I'm no stranger to, not being just an internet user name.


----------



## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

If there is nothing to fear from climate change information why has the Trump administration hidden research and in fact deleted research from official sites and actually prevents scientists from speaking freely? If their research can be disproved then do it. Talk about being controlled.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

emdeengee said:


> If there is nothing to fear from climate change information why has the Trump administration hidden research and in fact deleted research from official sites and actually prevents scientists from speaking freely? If their research can be disproved then do it. Talk about being controlled.


I have seen nothing, other than one article from a questionable source, that has been shared and re-printed ad nauseum, to back up this assertion. "Climate scientists" have been calling for gloom and doom for longer than I have been alive. One year we are going to all freeze, the next, bake. The fact of the matter is that it is not easy to get your research funded unless you make sensational claims like "we are all going to die of Bird flu", "An asteroid is going to destroy life on this planet" "We are past due for the eruption of the Yellow Stone super volcano" Etc. etc..


----------



## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Climate change is a normal part of our planets life. What is not normal is the huge influence human activities have had over the past century. The propaganda is to sell the idea that we humans have no influence on what has changed over the past decades. And yet the information clearly shows just how we have created change.

My husband has tried to access information that was available and it is all gone. Not to mention impossible to talk to US scientists as they are forbidden to talk. If climate change information is all garbage then why is it being snapped up by companies all over the world? 

People will continue to believe what they want to believe especially to keep their lifestyle but as soon as the water reaches their lower lip they are sure going to mention it to somebody.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> I know of few who don' t "believe" in climate change. There are those who see it as a natural progression of our planet that has occurred since time began. Sometimes the change is very slow, somethings pretty fast, but, it is a natural occurrence.


Your argument fails when 8 billion humans consume finite resources that can't be replaced.
You argument fails when 8 billion humans use fossil fuels, releasing carbon the biosphere spent 3.5 billion years sequestering so humans could evolve/thrive under current climate conditions.



> If FF companies are using sustainable energy, isn't that a good thing? Unless, of course, the goal is not environmental protection, but rather, taking down those pesky rich folks who won't tow the line? What technologies are the FF companies suppressing?


Again, your argument completely fails since Fossil Fuels, BY DEFINITION aren't sustainable or renewable.
It's in the NAME 'FOSSIL Fuels' for crying out loud! 

Another point where your logic breaks down is 'Pesky Rich Folks'.
It's not a war on a particular income catagory,
It's people wanting the polluting to stop since it's the people that have to consume the pollution in air, water, food.

It's self preservation instinct in those with enough brain cells to connect the dots.

The backlash comes from being lied to and poisoned by fossil fuels and other producers of pollution.
The big lies like 'Clean Coal' and 'Clean Natural Gas' when it's chemically impossible to consume any fossil fuel and not create toxic waste, basic laws of science.
YOU won't pipe your car exhaust into the passenger compartment because you KNOW it will kill you,
But you won't admit humans are doing exactly the same thing on a global scale using fossil fuels.
It's schizophrenic thinking at best, and dangerous mental illness at worst since you are inflicting that thinking on everyone AND their children...


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

As I watched the protests I did wonder if this was more of a white movement? Didn't see much in the way of ethnic diversity. 

As to the climate change, yes it has and always will. One of the digs my brother is working in Mexico has multiple indications of climate change, human and animal migrations.


----------



## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

emdeengee said:


> Climate change is a normal part of our planets life. What is not normal is the huge influence human activities have had over the past century. The propaganda is to sell the idea that we humans have no influence on what has changed over the past decades. And yet the information clearly shows just how we have created change.
> 
> My husband has tried to access information that was available and it is all gone. Not to mention impossible to talk to US scientists as they are forbidden to talk. If climate change information is all garbage then why is it being snapped up by companies all over the world?
> 
> People will continue to believe what they want to believe especially to keep their lifestyle but as soon as the water reaches their lower lip they are sure going to mention it to somebody.


I believe the pentagon see's it as our greatest threat.
Somebody must know something.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

SRSLADE said:


> I believe the pentagon see's it as our greatest threat.
> Somebody must know something.


As they should history is an amazing instructor.

Five Conflicts and Collapses That May Have Been Spurred by Climate Change

But there are historical examples of civilizations that did not fare well when faced with drastic environmental change, and those examples may offer a window into the future—and even help prevent catastrophe. "We can never know with 100-percent certainty that the climate was the decisive factor [in a conflict]," says Solomon Hsiang, assistant professor of public policy at the University of California, Berkeley. "But there's a lot of cases where things look pretty conspicuous."

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/hist...pses-spurred-climate-change-180952862/?page=1
*
*


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

no really said:


> As I watched the protests I did wonder if this was more of a white movement? Didn't see much in the way of ethnic diversity.
> 
> As to the climate change, yes it has and always will. One of the digs my brother is working in Mexico has multiple indications of climate change, human and animal migrations.



Now I have to be careful here.

First I do believe in climate change, no issue. Causes are very complex.

Second, I see it as a first world, privileged society issue. Many people are just trying to get by in this world and our society. They do not have the timeor energy to protest.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

JeepHammer said:


> Your argument fails when 8 billion humans consume finite resources that can't be replaced.


 What does that have to do with the discussion of Climate change? 



JeepHammer said:


> ou argument fails when 8 billion humans use fossil fuels, releasing carbon the biosphere spent 3.5 billion years sequestering so humans could evolve/thrive under current climate conditions.


8 billion people don't use FF. The planet didn't evolve for us. 



JeepHammer said:


> Again, your argument completely fails since Fossil Fuels, BY DEFINITION aren't sustainable or renewable.
> It's in the NAME 'FOSSIL Fuels' for crying out loud!


 Another poster made the claim about FF COMPANIES using renewable forms of energy and suppressing other green tech. 



JeepHammer said:


> It's people wanting the polluting to stop since it's the people that have to consume the pollution in air, water, food.
> 
> It's self preservation instinct in those with enough brain cells to connect the dots.


Without the major "pollutant" The global climate change folks are fighting against, we wouldn't have food. Perhaps the dots are not being connected on your part? ​


JeepHammer said:


> The big lies like 'Clean Coal' and 'Clean Natural Gas' when it's chemically impossible to consume any fossil fuel and not create toxic waste, basic laws of science.


 Define "toxic waste" I also don't think there is a claim that one can burn coal without waste, just that said waist can be largely contained. 



JeepHammer said:


> YOU won't pipe your car exhaust into the passenger compartment because you KNOW it will kill you,


 Same reason I don't try to breath underwater.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

emdeengee said:


> If there is nothing to fear from climate change information why has the Trump administration hidden research and in fact deleted research from official sites and actually prevents scientists from speaking freely? If their research can be disproved then do it. Talk about being controlled.


Exactly.
The information deleted was purely scientific research.
It's still mostly available since so many backed up the research, it's just not easy to find anymore, no 'Clearing House',
The government research deleted was taxpayer funded, so deleting it was a total waste of billions of taxpayer dollars over decades of hard won research.
So much for an open government or free speech...

We can only hope the next president isn't a science denier and socially engineered to believe the propaganda produced against renewable energy.
Just the horrific mess cleanup will take a couple of years to untangle the chaos and restore the scientific data.

Hide the truth so you can re-wright it with your own version, exactly what happened in Russia under Stalin & Germany under Hitler... Just for comparisons...


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

keenataz said:


> Now I have to be careful here.
> 
> First I do believe in climate change, no issue. Causes are very complex.
> 
> Second, I see it as a first world, privileged society issue. Many people are just trying to get by in this world and our society. They do not have the timeor energy to protest.


I agree that this occupies more thoughts in the first world groups but that includes many minority groups, as I look around my own area.  I certainly didn't mean to make the conversation uncomfortable, as it is a topic discussed in my group frequently and we are a very diverse group.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

no really said:


> I agree that this occupies more thoughts in the first world groups but that includes many minority groups, as I look around my own area.  I certainly didn't mean to make the conversation uncomfortable, as it is a topic discussed in my group frequently and we are a very diverse group.



I was more concerned as coming across as only white people care. You weren't making me uncomfortable.

To be honest i have not watched much of the coverage in our two countries to try to determine the ethnic make up of participants. Maybe the organizers only paid white suburban people to attend.

That last was a joke.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

keenataz said:


> I was more concerned as coming across as only white people care. You weren't making me uncomfortable.
> 
> To be honest i have not watched much of the coverage in our two countries to try to determine the ethnic make up of participants. Maybe the organizers only paid white suburban people to attend.
> 
> That last was a joke.


Good one!!! LOL


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Mankind will survive or not. In the big picture it matters not one whit which way it goes.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

JeepHammer said:


> Your 'Opinion' is flawed on it's face,
> 8 billion people do predominantly use fossil fuels.


There aren't 8 billion people on the planet. Of those fewer than 8 billion not all are users of FF.



JeepHammer said:


> That would be CO2,
> Might point out you aren't a plant and 3% CO2 kills humans?


5% is toxic to humans. Lucky for us that is ~125X today's concentration. A global flood would be deadly to humans as well, it is just not likely to happen. BTW, that is almost 10X the estimated level if we burned ALL the estimated FF's on Earth.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> I am not proud of *what we did* to the Indians


I wasn't there.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> There aren't 8 billion people on the planet. Of those fewer than 8 billion not all are users of FF.
> 
> 
> 5% is toxic to humans. Lucky for us that is ~125X today's concentration. A global flood would be deadly to humans as well, it is just not likely to happen. BTW, that is almost 10X the estimated level if we burned ALL the estimated FF's on Earth.


Best check your facts about CO2 toxicity,










https://e360.yale.edu/features/how-the-world-passed-a-carbon-threshold-400ppm-and-why-it-matters

With a near doubling in CO2 in the last 60 years, tell me again how CO2 remained nearly constant for 4 million years, but suddenly spikes with the precise kind of carbon humans make by burning fossil fuels, when humans started burning fossil fuels in volume, and the increases correspond in exactly with fossil fuel usage by humans...

-------------

Health effects of CO2 toxicity levels happen well before death, the most significant is brain damage which I personally find ironic...

https://www.airthings.com/en-us/what-is-carbon-dioxide

You are allowed to 'Believe' what you want, but don't try to sell the propaganda as 'Science' or 'Fact'.

https://sciencing.com/co2-bad-planet-4876.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

JeepHammer said:


> As I pointed out before, the 'Planet' doesn't know we are here. Period.
> A radioactive metal core with some rock/slag on the surface doesn't have recognition or intelligence.
> 
> What supports life, and should concern humans greatly, is the biosphere.
> ...


And? Exactly what does any of it matter? Our entire solar system could disappear tomorrow. Wouldn't ever be noticed in the big picture. Only the most self absorbed ego maniacs beleive they have any significant value in this world. Now eat your ice cream before it melts.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> And? Exactly what does any of it matter? Our entire solar system could disappear tomorrow. Wouldn't ever be noticed in the big picture.


What matters to humans is we live in the biosphere.
Only someone suicidal shoots their own self in the face.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

JeepHammer said:


> What matters to humans is we live in the biosphere.
> Only someone suicidal shoots their own self in the face.


Again, does it really make any difference how one chooses to expire?


----------



## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

We could all disappear in a flash or the result of slow death from atmospheric changes or a pandemic but we don't think about these things very much. Instead we think about little bits of the future as it pertains to us and our children and grandchildren. 

We care about how things will be for us and for them and we make plans for improving medicine, education and society and look forward to weddings, grandchildren and retirement. 

We are optimists. Why else would I buy tomatoes that will not ripen until next week? I expect to be here. I also expect (well, hope anyways) that humans who survive me will not only live a healthy life but take care of the planet and the other life on it.

One day humans will be extinct. That is the way of life. Until then we should try not to pee in our pond.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

JeepHammer said:


> Best check your facts about CO2 toxicity,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, should have said "kills humans" your 3% is false. 
I never said that we haven't increased the level of CO2, we have, just not enough to cause the types of changes that fear mongers, such as yourself, wish to spread. I know that it won't have the same punch, but, use the % of CO2 in the atmosphere instead of PPM. We went from 0.02% to 0.04%, a miniscule amount


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> With a near doubling in CO2 in the last 60 years, tell me again how CO2 remained nearly constant for 4 million years, but suddenly spikes with the precise kind of carbon humans make by burning fossil fuels, when humans started burning fossil fuels in volume, and the increases correspond in exactly with fossil fuel usage by humans


Wrong again.

https://skepticalscience.com/print.php?r=77



> Over the Earth's history, there are times where atmospheric CO2 is higher than current levels. Intriguingly, the planet experienced widespread regions of glaciation during some of those periods. Does this contradict the warming effect of CO2? No, for one simple reason. CO2 is not the only driver of climate. To understand past climate, we need to include other forcings that drive climate. To do this, one study pieced together 490 proxy records to reconstruct CO2 levels over the last 540 million years (Royer 2006). This period is known as the Phanerozoic eon.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> Sorry, should have said "kills humans" your 3% is false.
> I never said that we haven't increased the level of CO2, we have, just not enough to cause the types of changes that fear mongers, such as yourself, wish to spread. I know that it won't have the same punch, but, use the % of CO2 in the atmosphere instead of PPM. We went from 0.02% to 0.04%, a miniscule amount


Fear mongers? You think long term organ damage is 'Acceptable'?
You think brain damage is 'Acceptable'?
Go drink the water in Flint MI.

Yes, brain damage is the end of the human race when this is a global level event.
We will no longer be ****-sapiens if we loose intelligence, we become the next link in the chain, or we go extinct.

*IF* you had read the links, you would know the human body has several times the CO2 of outside air,
The human body both produces and concentrates CO2, any outside increase is concentrated inside the human body.

If you would have read the links, you would know CO2 is heavier than air and concentrates in low lying areas and stagnated air areas.
I know your argument, screw those people... Same thing you have exposed on repeatedly.

You do realize you are arguing for limiting the mental capacity of children... If not killing them outright through other organ damage.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

JeepHammer said:


> Fear mongers? You think long term organ damage is 'Acceptable'?
> You think brain damage is 'Acceptable'?
> Go drink the water in Flint MI.
> 
> ...


You sure do jump around a lot. Are we talking about increasing CO2, or, lead in the water of a Northern Democrat stronghold? I am arguing against brain damage, or, at least limiting its effects on our lives, by stopping any crazy policies that may result from it. 

I don't need your religion, I have my own thanks.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Starvation causes brain damage too.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

If you can't make your point without insulting other members, the thread will be closed.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Lots of insults in this thread...
It seems to depend on which side of things you are on if you get 'Moderated' or not.
#Irish Pixie

Nope, nothing in the inbox...
No specifics...

Care to elaborate what's considered insulting since there is plenty of 'Leftists', 'Democrat', anti renewable energy bashing going on, I'd like to know what the 'Official Forum' definition of an inappropriate insult is?


----------



## D-BOONE (Feb 9, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> The human body both produces and concentrates CO2, any outside increase is concentrated inside the human body.


Ok so by this statement we can lower the CO2 levels dramatically by letting humans go extinct ....see problem solved no more CO2 pumps. Planet saved ......beer time...


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Misinformation, labeling and threats when you are called on it probably has a wee bit to do with it, but I'm just thinking out loud.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

D-BOONE said:


> Planet saved ......beer time...


We need an address.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> …. the 52 million native Americans the Europeans murdered.
> 
> ...


Pure BS. Nicolette (as in Nicollette Natl Forest in N.WI) lived as an Indian with the Indians for 30 yrs in the 17th century. He put the population of all Indians in WI Territories at 20,000. Assuming all 50 states had an equal population density ( a gross over-,estimate. Most of the west is a relative desert and couldn't support the population that the rich forests of WI could.) then the entire area now comprising the contiguous USA would be no more than 1 million inhabitants.. Even if we wiped them all out over the next 300 yrs from 1600 - 1900, it wouldn't add up to 4 million souls, given a 60 yr life expectancy.

More on GW as a religion: isn't the crowd of kids in NYC this last weekend equivalent to The Children's' Crusade of 700 yrs ago? They're using the same tactics The Church used to maintain control: "If you are not a believer, you will die and rot in Hell!" 

Re: GW is a killer:









As Roseanne Roseannadanna would say: "Oh, never mind."


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Swedish teen climate alarmist Greta Thunberg and 15 other children filed a complaint with the United Nations on Monday, accusing five countries of inaction on combatting so-called climate change.


The complaint, filed with the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child, accuses *Argentina, Brazil, France, Germany, and Turkey* of failing to fulfill their obligations to act against climate change, placing them in violation of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, a three-decade-old human rights treaty which sets out the “civil, political, social, and cultural rights of children.

Why not China?


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Swedish teen climate alarmist Greta Thunberg and 15 other children filed a complaint with the United Nations on Monday, accusing five countries of inaction on combatting so-called climate change.
> 
> 
> The complaint, filed with the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child, accuses *Argentina, Brazil, France, Germany, and Turkey* of failing to fulfill their obligations to act against climate change, placing them in violation of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, a three-decade-old human rights treaty which sets out the “civil, political, social, and cultural rights of children.
> ...


And India?


----------



## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

doc- said:


> Pure BS. Nicolette (as in Nicollette Natl Forest in N.WI) lived as an Indian with the Indians for 30 yrs in the 17th century. He put the population of all Indians in WI Territories at 20,000. Assuming all 50 states had an equal population density ( a gross over-,estimate. Most of the west is a relative desert and couldn't support the population that the rich forests of WI could.) then the entire area now comprising the contiguous USA would be no more than 1 million inhabitants.. Even if we wiped them all out over the next 300 yrs from 1600 - 1900, it wouldn't add up to 4 million souls, given a 60 yr life expectancy.
> 
> More on GW as a religion: isn't the crowd of kids in NYC this last weekend equivalent to The Children's' Crusade of 700 yrs ago? They're using the same tactics The Church used to maintain control: "If you are not a believer, you will die and rot in Hell!"
> 
> ...


----------



## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

In 1492 the native population of North America north of the Rio Grande was seven million to ten million. 
That Includes Canada. 
No where near the # quoted by jeep guy


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

doc- said:


> ... Assuming all 50 states had an equal population density ( a gross over-,estimate. Most of the west is a relative desert and couldn't support the population that the rich forests of WI could.) then the entire area now comprising the contiguous USA would be no more than 1 million inhabitants..


I didn't 'Assume' anything, I said America, western hemisphere.
That would include the extra entire population from both north & south America.

Ducking and dodging, trying to change pramaters, using an 1800s reference from someone that didn't explore beyond Wisconsin doesn't work here.
200 years of science have passed since your (questionable) reference.

Trying to defend genocide is indefensible no matter how you go at it.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

po boy said:


> In 1492 the native population of North America north of the Rio Grande was seven million to ten million.
> That Includes Canada.
> No where near the # quoted by jeep guy


Why would you like to a site that starts at 1600 to 1754, and try to pass it off as 1492?
You missed 100 years of genocide entirely.

Even if your chosen numbers are correct, that's 1/4 of the US population today.
It's still "7 to 10 million" human victims of genocide in North America alone and you are trying to defend that...
Would you defend genocide of 1/4 of the current population of the US, or would you call it what it was?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Research by some scholars provides population estimates of the pre-contact Americas to be as high as 112 million in 1492, while others estimate the population to have been as low as eight million. In any case, the native population declined to less than six million by 1650.

https://uwpress.wisc.edu/books/0289.htm


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Funny how climate deaths in the above graph coincide with the increase in use of fossil fuels and the increase in CO2...

And since we don't have to is fossil fuels nearly as much anymore, why is fossil fuel use still increasing?


----------



## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Research by some scholars provides population estimates of the pre-contact Americas to be as high as 112 million in 1492, while others estimate the population to have been as low as eight million. In any case, the native population declined to less than six million by 1650.
> 
> https://uwpress.wisc.edu/books/0289.htm


That looks interesting.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> Funny how climate deaths in the above graph coincide with the increase in use of fossil fuels and the increase in CO2...


Are we looking at the same graph?



JeepHammer said:


> And since we don't have to is fossil fuels nearly as much anymore, *why is fossil fuel use still increasing*?


Think about it.


----------



## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

JeepHammer said:


> Why would you like to a site that starts at 1600 to 1754, and try to pass it off as 1492?
> You missed 100 years of genocide entirely.
> 
> Even if your chosen numbers are correct, that's 1/4 of the US population today.
> ...


It quotes the population in 1492


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

She might win an Oscar for this performance:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/23/weather/greta-thunberg-unga-climate-speech-intl/index.html


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Are we looking at the same graph?


...I think so...


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> Funny how climate deaths in the above graph coincide with the increase in use of fossil fuels and the increase in CO2...
> 
> And since we don't have to is fossil fuels nearly as much anymore, why is fossil fuel use still increasing?


Not sure what you mean--climate deaths go down as fossil fuel use & co2 levels go up.

Fossil fuel use is a proxy measure of economic well being: increasing industrial production uses more fuel, and increasing prosperity means more people buying/driving cars and using gas ranges & furnaces instead of burning dung in the kitchen.

Fossil fuel use is increasing much faster then nuclear of "alternatives" because the TreeHuggers are making new nuclear plants impossible to build and alternatives (wind & solar) cannot compete economically with fossil fuels .If it weren't for the govt subsidies, nobody would be building those installations.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

This week, the US Department of Energy released a report that looks back on the state of wind power in the US by running the numbers on 2018. The analysis shows that wind hardware prices are dropping, even as new turbine designs are increasing the typical power generated by each turbine. As a result, recent wind farms have gotten so cheap that you can build and operate them for less than the expected cost of buying fuel for an equivalent natural gas plant.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/08/wind-power-prices-now-lower-than-the-cost-of-natural-gas/

-----------------

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/renewable-sources/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/...s-efficient-than-non-renewables/#7607eabb4d4a

Curious to know who is the largest contributor of fossil fuel subsidies in the world? The answer is right here at home. *The United States has continued to subsidize fossil fuels at a higher rate than any other nation in the world,* even under the environmentally progressive Obama Administration. With fossil fuel advocates already lined up for the incoming Trump Administration, the next era of American energy will likely continue on its same course of heavy fossil fuel subsidization.

https://news.energysage.com/solar-energy-vs-fossil-fuels/

Care to change your statement not supported by facts?


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> As a result, recent wind farms have gotten so cheap that you can build and operate them for less than the expected cost of buying fuel for an equivalent natural gas plant.


But you still have to have the conventionally fueled plants as back-up, since wind (or solar) isn't constant and reliable.



JeepHammer said:


> The United States has continued to subsidize fossil fuels at a higher rate than any other nation in the world


Many "nations" have fewer people than some of our states or even a few of the largest cities.

We've beaten this horse to death many times before.
The outcome won't be different this time.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I have to wonder why some seem so scared of a 16 year old girl's well researched opinion they will go to all lengths to shame and ridicule her. 

Greta Thunberg is passionate about climate change. Those who don't believe in climate change, don't think it's man made, and/or there is nothing to do to change or slow it down, should ignore her message. She's not impacting your life at all. Your fear, ridicule, and anger directed at her personally isn't going to change her passion. 

The media who indicate Ms. Thunberg is mentally ill due to having Asperger's are abhorrent scum.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I'm not sure what is more pathetic, the media using children as their pawns or the activists, including her parents, who try to leverage the public using children in place of a weak message. They should all be ashamed, but they are not.
That is a very hard watch for all the wrong reasons. I feel sorry for the young lady.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

GTX63 said:


> I'm not sure what is more pathetic, the media using children as their pawns or the activists, including her parents, who try to leverage the public using children in place of a weak message. They should all be ashamed, but they are not.
> That is a very hard watch for all the wrong reasons. I feel sorry for the young lady.


Same show different century: “The state must declare the *child* to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the *children*, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation.” ― Adolf *Hitler*


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Why do you think the media is using her? She started her campaign over a year ago, and has been researching climate change for many years. You don't think that a 16 year old girl can be well informed about a subject on her own? Is it because she's female? Has Asperger's? Is Swedish? Is 16? Why do you think a young person can't know their own mind? 

I doubt highly she needs or wants anyone's pity. She seems strong and sure of herself and her message.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> Same show different century: “The state must declare the *child* to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the *children*, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation.” ― Adolf *Hitler*


The fear is palpable in this post, just by the choice of quote. Of course, it's only my opinion.


----------



## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

*Big Oil CEOs Talk Climate Change, Methane and Why They Need Gas*

Simon Casey and Naureen S. Malik
BloombergSeptember 23, 2019
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/big-oil-ceos-talk-climate-000652702.html

*130 banks holding USD 47 trillion in assets commit to climate action and sustainability
https://www.unenvironment.org/news-...-47-trillion-assets-commit-climate-action-and*

*Fossil fuel subsidies reach US$87 billion in EU countries – and they’re growing  *
September 23, 2019 5.05am EDT 
https://theconversation.com/fossil-...ion-in-eu-countries-and-theyre-growing-123733

IF Gas & Oil were actually so profitable & good WHY are they being subsidised to such an extreme ?
Banks are pulling sup[port from Oil & Gas companies, Nations are cutting back & some eliminating subsidies altogether... Even few have now announced the termination of sales of Petro Fuels in < 10 years... 

The argument that you NEED fossil Fuel Power Plants as a backup is a tired & very old argument that carries NO WATER AT ALL.... Baseload & Reserves can absolutely be handled by Renewables & Energy Storage... ALL Denialists ALWAYS FAIL TO CONNECT THE TWO ! Like a Gas Car is useless without a Gas Tank, RE is hampered severely with storage BUT THAT IS NO ISSUE ANYMORE ! 










*Can renewables provide baseload power?*
https://skepticalscience.com/renewable-energy-baseload-power.htm


----------



## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> The fear is palpable in this post, just by the choice of quote. Of course, it's only my opinion.


You nailed that dead square on the head. FEAR is what is being pushed here by so many afraid of the future they have to hold onto what they know.... LUDDITES !

"The *Luddites* were a secret oath-based organization[1] of English textile workers in the 19th century, a radical faction which destroyed textile machinery as a form of protest. The group was protesting against the use of machinery in a "fraudulent and deceitful manner" to get around standard labour practices.[2] Luddites feared that the time spent learning the skills of their craft would go to waste, as machines would replace their role in the industry.[3] Over time, however, the term has come to mean one opposed to industrialisation, automation, computerisation, or new technologies in general.[4] The Luddite movement began in Nottingham in England and culminated in a region-wide rebellion that lasted from 1811 to 1816. Mill and factory owners took to shooting protesters and eventually the movement was suppressed with legal and military force. "
REF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Who finances Miss Thunberg?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Seth said:


> Who finances Miss Thunberg?


Seems to be a bit murky but found this little article.

Greta Thunberg's Ties to High Finance

The Swedish teen activist is sailing to a major New York climate conference to make a point about flying. The high-speed yacht's sponsors including German carmaker BMW and Swiss wealth manager EFG International.

https://www.finews.com/news/english...ctivist-un-conference-new-york-monaco-efg-bmw


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Asperger's sufferers often have a high IQ, nearly perfect recall, highly organized thought patterns, and a slow to start in school because they want to know everything about subjects they are interested in. They often have accompanying 'Learning Disability' like dyslexia.
Once they have every aspect of that subject under their belt, they exceed in later education, and often go onto become leading experts in their fields.
Nicola Tesla, Thomas Edison, Bill Gates are a few, NASA employs several, Elon Musk has a full on nonverbal autistic math whiz that checks the work of super computers at Space X.
The defense department seeks Asperger's and higher function Autistics out from collages for think tanks, long range strategic planning because of ultra organized thought patterns, know every aspect of and they can keep their mouths shut, no asperger's or autistic has ever breeched security.

------------------

I'd have to say that rule against insulting is subjective...
Leftist, pawns, pathetic, tree huggers seem to pass just fine when aimed at anyone supporting renewable energy.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Seth said:


> Who finances Miss Thunberg?


This is how she arrived in the US (no jets as was previously stated) "Team Malizia has of course got sponsors. But for the trip with me to New York there are no commercial sponsors. All commercial sponsor logos have been removed.‬ That of course was a dealbreaker for me. ‪No money or future payments are involved. They offered me a free ride because they support my cause.‬"

https://www.facebook.com/gretathunb...trip-with-me-to-new-york-the/883275202040301/

The same information was found in no really's link. The sailboat she came over on is zero emission (and she only uses trains in Europe) and the trip took 13 days. It's detailed in this link: https://www.businessinsider.com/gre...crossing-the-atlantic-posed-a-new-challenge-9

It seems that most of her funding is donated by companies that support her cause. She doesn't use their company logos tho. If you're truly interested, you can do more research.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> *I have to wonder *why some seem so scared of a 16 year old girl's well researched opinion they will go to all lengths to shame and ridicule her.
> 
> Greta Thunberg is passionate about climate change. Those who don't believe in climate change, don't think it's man made, and/or there is nothing to do to change or slow it down, should ignore her message. She's not impacting your life at all. Your fear, ridicule, and anger directed at her personally isn't going to change her passion.
> 
> The media who indicate Ms. Thunberg is mentally ill due to having Asperger's are abhorrent scum.


Then you are pondering the wrong question.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Then you are pondering the wrong question.


Why respond to me personally rather than the information in my post?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why respond to me personally rather than the information in my post?


Because I had something to say to you


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> The fear is palpable in this post, just by the choice of quote. Of course, it's only my opinion.


Don't confuse "fear" with disgust. Using a child to further ones anti-liberty agenda is as disgusting as it comes.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

A young pretty face sells.

They are selling her hard.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> Don't confuse "fear" with disgust. Using a child to further ones anti-liberty agenda is as disgusting as it comes.


So your opinion is that Ms. Thunberg is a child at 16? And because she is a child, she must be a puppet of "someone else" because she can't understand the research she's done on climate change? Because she's 16? Female? Swedish? Has Aspberger's? 

So you must consider all 16 year old human beings children, correct?


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> So your opinion is that Ms. Thunberg is a child at 16? And because she is a child, she must be a puppet of "someone else" because she can't understand the research she's done on climate change? Because she's 16? Female? Swedish? Has Aspberger's?
> 
> So you must consider all 16 year old human beings children, correct?


Yes. 16 year old children are generally easily manipulated and they tend remain so until at least their mid 20's and some never grow out of it.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> So your opinion is that Ms. Thunberg is a child at 16? And because she is a child, she must be a puppet of "someone else" because she can't understand the research she's done on climate change? Because she's 16? Female? Swedish? Has Aspberger's?
> 
> So you must consider all 16 year old human beings children, correct?


She is a very well funded child actor representing people who are expecting to make huge sums of money with an economic shift away from oil, and also governments that intend to raise more money with taxes cloaked climate change hokum


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> Yes. 16 year old children are generally easily manipulated and they tend remain so until at least their mid 20's and some never grow out of it.


I want to be clear- you are saying that 16 year old human beings are children AND can't form opinion based on research until sometime in their 20s? Why?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> So your opinion is that Ms. Thunberg is a child at 16? And because she is a child, she must be a puppet of "someone else" because she can't understand the research she's done on climate change? Because she's 16? Female? Swedish? Has Aspberger's?
> 
> So you must consider all 16 year old human beings children, correct?


I consider not only 16 year olds to be children but so do the courts in most cases.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

HDRider said:


> people who are expecting to make huge sums of money with an economic shift away from oil, and also governments that intend to raise more money with taxes cloaked climate change hokum


Why is this bad. Sounds like a winner.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> Why is this bad. Sounds like a winner.


How much de-industrialization do you think the world can accommodate, or tolerate?

The shift way from oil is not going to keep everyone working, and producing at the same level. It will move most people down the poverty scale, and move .0001% up the wealth scale.

People will starve when food production drops to non-mechanized methods. 

Sell this idea to China, and hold them accountable. Then we can talk about India, then Vietnam and so on.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Your Excellencies,

There is no climate emergency.

A global network of more than 500 knowledgeable and experienced scientists and professionals in climate and related fields have the honor to address to Your Excellencies the attached European Climate Declaration, for which the signatories to this letter are the national ambassadors.

The general-circulation models of climate on which international policy is at present founded are unfit for their purpose. Therefore, it is cruel as well as imprudent to advocate the squandering of trillions on the basis of results from such immature models. Current climate policies pointlessly, grievously undermine the economic system, putting lives at risk in countries denied access to affordable, continuous electrical power.

We urge you to follow a climate policy based on sound science, realistic economics and genuine concern for those harmed by costly but unnecessary attempts at mitigation.

We ask you to place the Declaration on the agenda of your imminent New York session.

We also invite you to organize with us a constructive high-level meeting between world-class scientists on both sides of the climate debate early in 2020. The meeting will give effect to the sound and ancient principle no less of sound science than of natural justice that both sides should be fully and fairly heard. Audiatur et altera pars!

Please let us know your thoughts about such a joint meeting.

Yours sincerely, ambassadors of the European Climate Declaration,
There is no climate emergency
A global network of 500 scientists and professionals has prepared this urgent message. Climate science should be less political, while climate policies should be more scientific. Scientists should openly address the uncertainties and exaggerations in their predictions of global warming, while politicians should dispassionately count the real benefits as well as the imagined costs of adaptation to global warming, and the real costs as well as the imagined benefits of mitigation.

Natural as well as anthropogenic factors cause warming
The geological archive reveals that Earth’s climate has varied as long as the planet has existed, with natural cold and warm phases. The Little Ice Age ended as recently as 1850. Therefore, it is no surprise that we now are experiencing a period of warming.

Warming is far slower than predicted
The world has warmed at less than half the originally-predicted rate, and at less than half the rate to be expected on the basis of net anthropogenic forcing and radiative imbalance. It tells us that we are far from understanding climate change.

Climate policy relies on inadequate models
Climate models have many shortcomings and are not remotely plausible as policy tools. Moreover, they most likely exaggerate the effect of greenhouse gases such as CO2. In addition, they ignore the fact that enriching the atmosphere with CO2 is beneficial.

https://clintel.nl/brief-clintel-aan-vn-baas-guterres/


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> I want to be clear- you are saying that 16 year old human beings are children AND can't form opinion based on research until sometime in their 20s? Why?


They can form opinion, it is just that those opinions are easily manipulated.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Farmerga said:


> They can form opinion, it is just that those opinions are easily manipulated.


And quite often incorrect.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> This is how she arrived in the US (no jets as was previously stated) "Team Malizia has of course got sponsors. But for the trip with me to New York there are no commercial sponsors. All commercial sponsor logos have been removed.‬ That of course was a dealbreaker for me. ‪No money or future payments are involved. They offered me a free ride because they support my cause.‬"
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/gretathunb...trip-with-me-to-new-york-the/883275202040301/
> 
> ...


Same old story, discredit, disavow, smear, insult, marginalize, deny, deny, deny...

Same old arguments, renewables are too expensive, which is disproven many times over.
Claim renewables couldn't exist without subsidies, when fossil fuels get several hundred thousand times the subsidies renewables ever had.
Complain about efficiency when fossil fuels waste 60% to 80% of fuel that goes up in smoke/pollution, has to be radiated as heat.
Complain about 'Ugly' but have apparently never seen a strip mine, oil field, natural gas field.
Complain about 'Jobs' when someone will need to design components, build components, assemble those components, maintain those components.

The truth is the fossil fuel companies bought off politicians to get the subsidies, resources leases on government maintained land, don't pay royalties, get taxpayer subsidies, don't pay taxes, it's money rolling in from all directions...
In the 80s when the righting was on the wall, they launched a massive propaganda campaign and repeated the same chant for 35 years making 'Believers' out of two generations of Americans, now it's a 'Cult Of Fossil Fuel', a religion...
Paid pundts on radio & TV, print ads, the internet, all directions at once.

The internet has been particularly effective since not only does the message get through, but the 'Subject' has time on their hands to endless regurgitate that message, interject it into any conversation, and pass that message along like it's the word of 'god' with absloute authority, a messenger from 'On High' as it were...

While the conspiracy theory advocates want to believe in pedophile bases on Mars, they miss the actual problems entirely, like socal engineering (brain washing) done by fossil fuel producers that have 100 years of experience 'Contributing' to political campaigns, hiring lobbiests, directing media to pass their message.
We all know it, yet some CHOOSE to believe they aren't victims of socal engineering and still believe they are the messenger from a higher authority than anyone else with a functioning brain & an internet connection.

You can chant, close your eyes, stick your head in the sand (or YouTube) and deny everything, that's your choice...
The sheer number of posts on this insignificant subject shows the misinformed are mobilized, and since they won't see any difference in services, an electrical watt is a watt, doesn't matter how it's generated, I have to wonder WHY, what's the motivation to have people endlessly attack renewable energy, day & night for hours on end?
Why use the same old, tired and disproven talking points they started with in the 80s? Haven't they read anything other than the propaganda since the 80s? Don't they understand that technology has progressed to the break even point of fossil fuels, no pollution from renewable 'Fuel', etc?
Why attack a child on such venom?
Why waste endless hours arguing with someone that has RE up and running that RE doesn't work, when the user clearly knows better?

The other thing I wonder about is the 'Dog Pile', when one gets triggered, they drag in their internet 'Buddies' instead of making their own point...
Do they think more, louder and insulting makes them 'Right' somehow?
This is disturbing since the 'Gang' or 'Pack' mentality is a very real thing, and what one doesn't think of, the second will, and the third will do, each one going further.
Watch any riot to see this in action, from police to sports event patrons to street thugs...

You just have to read this thread, or any other where someone 'Dares' to challenge the science of fossil fuel use, you pay for 100% but only 20%-40% makes useable energy, the other 60%-80% makes pollution at the point of use, that doesn't include pollution & environmental damage getting it out of the ground.
*They argue against 'FREE FUEL' from the sun, from the wind, from gravity and falling water with little or no pollution, which is indoctrination to argue against common sense.
Wind, sun, and gravity/water are all 'Fake Science' with them, wind, water and sun don't exist and can't make electrical energy...*
The fact that sailing ships go back about 10,000 years, that wind mills have been used for at least 6,000 years, moving water (water/gravity) was used for transportation well before humans developed writing, cave paintings depict crude rafts & boats, solar heat powers nearly everything in the natural biosphere, it's all 'Fake Science' and 'Leftist/Democrat Scam' to use FREE ENERGY supply to produce electrical/mechanical power... That for some mysterious reason those basic energy sources no longer work and we MUST use fossil fuels, and NOTHING BUT fossil fuels.

Do you see the cult like dogma in this 'Thinking' (brain washing/social engineering)?

The so called 'Patriots' argue against renewables while the defense department consider climate change and dependence on fossil fuels it's #1 weakness.
The Department Of Defense, with a nearly unlimited budget, and which hires ONLY educated, trained professionals CHOOSES to move away from fossil fuels, 
The DoD is seriously concerned about sea, air & land operations being more difficult or impossible with worsening weather conditions,
Larger, more powerful storms are requiring the Navy to spend billions building stronger ships, all branches have issues with engines, propellers & air frames being damaged by grit & solids in the air.
*The DoD have the top end of educated professional in their respective fields, and they believe those professionals when they say the climate change is very real, and it's man made.*

Military bases are building renewable power generation on site to prevent a grid failure from stopping operations, and recommending that civilians decentralize their power grids in favor of renewables as soon as can be effectively done for the same reason.
You have to ask yourself this question, What do they know that we don't?
They know the power grid has been hacked thousands of times, much in the same way the Iran nuclear program centrafuges were,
The 'Boogy Man' in the military for about 3 decades was an Electro-Magnetic Pulse (EMP) weapon, now it's just 1s & 0s over the internet, from anywhere in the world.

This summer in Minneapolis two substations were destroyed, and while there wasn't much in the news about it, the feds, NSA in particular were all over it for weeks.
The congressional report on that incident went to closed chamber national security committee, C-Span reported on it...
Simple failures from overloaded substations don't have congressional report and don't go to closed chamber meetings.

I have no idea how to make it any more clear...


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> She is a very well funded child actor representing people who are expecting to make huge sums of money with an economic shift away from oil, and also governments that intend to raise more money with taxes cloaked climate change hokum



Well so a shift from oil takes billions from the middle east. Isn't that good?


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> And quite often incorrect.


As you can be. It is an opinion


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Greta Thunberg’s school strike coincided neatly with the launch of a book about climate change written by her mother, Malena Ernman.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

As well as working for Greta’s mother, Ingmar Rentzhog had also recently launched a business called ‘We Don’t Have Time’, a sort of climate-focused PR agency.

In October 2018, he invited Greta to join the company’s Youth Advisory Board and in the weeks that followed he used her image intensively ahead of the company’s share issue.

https://climatechangedispatch.com/w...vist-greta-thunbergs-remarkable-rise-to-fame/


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> They can form opinion, it is just that those opinions are easily manipulated.


Thank you for answering most of my question.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> As well as working for Greta’s mother, Ingmar Rentzhog had also recently launched a business called ‘We Don’t Have Time’, a sort of climate-focused PR agency.
> 
> In October 2018, he invited Greta to join the company’s Youth Advisory Board and in the weeks that followed he used her image intensively ahead of the company’s share issue.
> 
> https://climatechangedispatch.com/w...vist-greta-thunbergs-remarkable-rise-to-fame/


Interesting blog article. Thank you.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Your Excellencies,
> 
> There is no climate emergency.
> 
> ...


Do you accept this as the truth, the "real" truth on climate change? Why is the information from this group of people more believable than from others?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The Greta phenomenon has also involved green lobbyists, PR hustlers, eco-academics, and a think-tank founded by a wealthy ex-minister in Sweden’s Social Democratic government with links to the country’s energy companies. These companies are preparing for the biggest bonanza of government contracts in history: the greening of the Western economies.

Whatever Greta or her (former actor father, turned Greta manager) parents know or think, her eco-mob increases the likelihood of legislation and investment that will make colossal profits for people like Global Challenge, We Don’t Have Time and Sustainable Energy Angels. For Sweden’s energy titans, saving the planet means government contracts to print the green stuff. Green energy lobbyists use populist scare tactics and a children’s crusade to bypass elected representatives, but their goal is technocracy not democracy, profit not redistribution. Greta, a child of woke capitalism, is being used to ease the transition to green corporatism. 

https://standpointmag.co.uk/issues/june-2019/gretas-very-corporate-childrens-crusade/


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Do you accept this as the truth, the "real" truth on climate change? Why is the information from this group of people more believable than from others?


It is a counter weight.

You can believe whatever you want.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Interesting blog article. Thank you.


Did you find the fact inaccurate?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> It is a counter weight.
> 
> You can believe whatever you want.


I understand. Thank you.


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## macmad (Dec 22, 2012)

If you think this girl is angry now, wait until she turns 30 and finds out that adults stole her childhood by brainwashing her with propaganda and using her as a pawn for themselves.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> Don't confuse "fear" with disgust. Using a child to further ones anti-liberty agenda is as disgusting as it comes.


More alarmist propaganda.
No 'Liberty' is threatened, none what so ever, another statement designed to illicit a response from armchair 'Patriots' sitting in front of computer screen so they feel compelled to jump in.

You will still have power (Watts) at your outlets like always.
You will still have your 'Liberty', you can plug anything you have into that outlet.

The only thing that's 'Lost' is 60%-80% wasted fossil fossil fuel that goes up in thermal losses (but you PAY for 100% of the fossil fuel) and the pollution it creates. Thermodynamics (science), and Chemistry (science), laws of nature that can't be broken currently by humans anywhere on the planet.

While science deniers will argue against wind, sun, water,
Keep in mind these didn't suddenly stop working with the use of fossil fuels.
Without solar energy, the entire biosphere we live in dies, an enormous amount of free, energy that powers everything in our natural world, including the atmosphere (wind) and the evaporation of the water cycle, first by making the water a liquid, then though heat/wind evaporation.
Humans used sailing ships, windmills, water mills, moving water for transportation for longer than humans had a written language, boats & rafts show up in cave paintings, sun not only produced plants/grain, it dried/preserved foods, transportation (mechanical energy) since the first cave man grabbed a log and floated down a river.

As to 'Liberty', why does the DoD, with actual educated, trained professionals think that fossil fuels and climate change are the #1 threat to 'Our Liberty'?
Do you believe the oil/natural gas/coal companies that do business with Russia, Iran, north korea, China have your 'Liberty' as their #1 priority?
Do you believe that fossil fuel companies know how to best protect your 'Liberty' over the DoD/Armed Forces?

The only 'Liberty' being lost is to pollute first by extraction of fossil fuels, then by price fixing/speculation, and then by wasting 60%-80% of that fossil fuel, and to freely pollute air, water, soil.
Dumping toxins/poisons/pollution into the general population is a bad thing despite what big energy says...
What about the 'Liberty' of others to NOT breathe, drink & eat the pollution from fossil fuel?
Don't people wanting clean air/water/food have any 'Liberties', or is this a one sided, short sighted opinion shoved down the throats of people that don't agree with *YOUR* viewpoint?

-----------

It is about 'Fear',
Feeding on the fears of common folk that 'Change' will be 'Bad' and/or expensive.
That has been disproven multiple times in this thread alone, links from the energy producers themselves, from the US government (under the Trump adminstration no less), from financial research groups.

It's about the fear from big fossil fuel producers losing profits & market share.
It's fear of losing tax exemptions, subsidies, price fixing profits from 'Speculation' by big fossil fuel companies.
Is about fear from environmental clean up companies that will lose business (taxpayer funded) cleaning up the polluted sites when some company has a big spill and goes belly up to protect profits.
It's about fear from politicians losing big campaign contributions, the 'Gray' & 'Dark' money dumped on them by the truckloads.
For the religion of fossil fuel 'Believers', it's fear they will have to admit they were wrong, fear their ego will get bruised.

I read all about how canal and shipping company owners spread propaganda about rail roads in the 1800s, that the human body couldn't withstand speeds of 60 miles per hour.
I read all about how gas company spread propaganda about how much more dangerous electricity was than gas lighting & heating when electrical service was getting started.
I read all about how Thomas Edison waged a propaganda war on Westinghouse saying AC current was so much more dangerous than Edison's DC current.
I read about the NAZI propaganda campaign against the Jewish folks that caused WWII.

It's not hard to understand, which is why I don't understand why everyone doesn't see it for what it is...


----------



## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

Greta Thunberg...the David Hogg of climate change ?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

A little look at climate change and it's effect on ancient civilizations. 


5 ancient civilizations that were destroyed by climate change

As we grapple with climate change, it's important to remember that this isn't the first time climate change has threatened grand, seemingly unstoppable civilizations.

The Ancestral Puebloans, also known as the "Anasazi" by the Navajo, are one of the most famous examples of an ancient civilization that collapsed due to climate change. Once dominant across the Colorado Plateau in places like Chaco Canyon and Mesa Verde (pictured), the Ancestral Puebloans abandoned their distinctive homes sometime in the 12th and 13th centuries, and it's not completely understood why they left. There's evidence of warfare, human sacrifice and cannibalism, but many scientists speculate that devastating environmental changes caused by climate change are largely to blame.

https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/c...t-civilizations-were-destroyed-climate-change


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

CKelly78z said:


> Greta Thunberg...the David Hogg of climate change ?


In that both are a voice for those of their generation? Yes.


----------



## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

"Happening now" A 16 year old girl wants to save humanity.
Also happening. A demented old wingnut wants to open PUBLIC LANDS to oil gas timber rock stone air water exploitation.
Did I forget anything?


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

no really said:


> A little look at climate change and it's effect on ancient civilizations.
> 
> 
> 5 ancient civilizations that were destroyed by climate change
> ...




I capitalized the two words that make me ignore things. I want fact, not speculation. Seth


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

They are an oxymoron.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Seth said:


> I capitalized the two words that make me ignore things. I want fact, not speculation. Seth


I'm with ya on that I ignore most of the end of the world prognostications concerning the oncoming apocalyptic climate change being advertised now.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

JeepHammer said:


> No 'Liberty' is threatened, none what so ever, another statement designed to illicit a response from armchair 'Patriots' sitting in front


So you are telling me that our freedom of travel, independent movement, dietary choices, etc.. Will not be affected by policy that comes about from this Climate change sham? You should read some of the proposals lawmakers have puked up. 



JeepHammer said:


> As to 'Liberty', why does the DoD, with actual educated, trained professionals think that fossil fuels and climate change are the #1 threat to 'Our Liberty'?


 The DOD is looking for an enemy's butt to kick. Without one they risk their huge budget and, thereby, their jobs. The "Right" who is concerned about real enemies like bad world actors the likes of Hitler, Bin-Laden, etc.., are willing to give them gobs of money now. If they take up the Leftist Booger man of Climate change, they ensure that their budget is safe no matter which bunch of idiots hold DC power. 



JeepHammer said:


> Do you believe the oil/natural gas/coal companies that do business with Russia, Iran, north korea, China have your 'Liberty' as their #1 priority?


 I believe such companies do business to make money for themselves and shareholders. That is what they are there for. They do not threaten my liberty, nor, is it their place to protect it. The same cannot be said of government.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

SRSLADE said:


> "Happening now" A 16 year old girl wants to save humanity.
> Also happening. A demented old wingnut wants to open PUBLIC LANDS to oil gas timber rock stone air water exploitation.
> Did I forget anything?


More accurately: A 16 year old girl is being used by Leftists to further an anti-Liberty agenda. And the elected President of the United States wants to use our vast resources to improve the quality of life of our citizens.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

HDRider said:


> Greta Thunberg’s school strike coincided neatly with the launch of a book about climate change written by her mother, Malena Ernman.


Sounds like, as with more "leaders" in the CC sham, they have found a way to monetize the fear. Al Gore would be proud if he wasn't so angry that he didn't think it up.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Honestly, this Climate Change campaign is child abuse. Our children are being overwhelmed with world wide gloom and doom.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Farmerga said:


> Sounds like, as with more "leaders" in the CC sham, they have found a way to monetize the fear. Al Gore would be proud if he wasn't so angry that he didn't think it up.


Al is proud of it...

Trained by Al Gore’s Climate Reality Project, Rentzhog set up We Don’t Have Time in late 2017 to “hold leaders and companies accountable for climate change” by leveraging “the power of social media”. Rentzhog and his CEO David Olsson have backgrounds in finance, not environmental activism, Rentzhog as the founder of Laika, an investment relations company, and Olsson with Svenska Bostadsfonden, one of Sweden’s biggest real estate funds, whose board Rentzhog joined in June 2017. We Don’t Have Time’s investors included Gustav Stenbeck, whose family control Kinnevik, one of Sweden’s largest investment corporations.

https://standpointmag.co.uk/issues/june-2019/gretas-very-corporate-childrens-crusade/


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> More accurately: A 16 year old girl is being used by Leftists to further an anti-Liberty agenda. And the elected President of the United States wants to use our vast resources to improve the quality of life of our citizens.


Hog wash.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

SRSLADE said:


> Hog wash.


Why bring the UN and the DNC into this?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> Hog wash.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

HDRider said:


> How much de-industrialization do you think the world can accommodate, or tolerate?
> 
> The shift way from oil is not going to keep everyone working, and producing at the same level. It will move most people down the poverty scale, and move .0001% up the wealth scale.


ABSOLUTE 100% Republican Elephant Manure !!! You are one SICK PUPPY ! making this crap u[p on the fly…. Of course that is PAR for Fear Mongering Fools who can't understand what they read. NEVER EVER did anyone say anything about De-Industrialisation EXCEPT YOU DENIALISTS ! who to spin a turd sideways, the tool used by those without valid arguments or even discussion...

Anti-Liberty ! Being attached to FOREIGN OIL and dependent on the outside is NOT FREEDOM... Ask any former slave what a shackle around the ankle is... Quit the opposite in FACT... Saudi get's a little whack on oil production and everyone worldwide pays for it... and now the US is sending troops, arms & minutions at US Tax[payer cost for SAUDI OIL !! and Pajama Wearing Turbine Capped dictators pretending to be royalty because they beat everyone else to the oil... You REALLY HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT LIBERTY IS ! *You are arguing against the Children's Liberty to speak out for their own Rights, Needs & Future, attempting to supress Free Speech to those it matters most to ! HYPOCRISSY in it's worst form. *


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I have to wonder why some seem so scared of a 16 year old girl's well researched opinion they will go to all lengths to shame and ridicule her.


No one is afraid of her.
She's a pawn in a silly game.



Irish Pixie said:


> The same information was found in no really's link. The sailboat she came over on is zero emission (and she only uses trains in Europe) and the trip took 13 days. It's detailed in this link: https://www.businessinsider.com/gre...crossing-the-atlantic-posed-a-new-challenge-9


Who cares?
She's an actress who should be spending her time in school.



Irish Pixie said:


> It seems that most of her funding is donated by companies that support her cause. She doesn't use their company logos tho. If you're truly interested, *you can do more research*.


As could everyone.
She's pushing an *agenda*, just like so many others do.
You're mostly upset because we don't agree with it but you do.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Steve_S said:


> ABSOLUTE 100% Republican Elephant Manure !!! You are one SICK PUPPY ! making this crap u[p on the fly…. Of course that is PAR for Fear Mongering Fools who can't understand what they read. NEVER EVER did anyone say anything about De-Industrialisation EXCEPT YOU DENIALISTS ! who to spin a turd sideways, the tool used by those without valid arguments or even discussion...
> 
> Anti-Liberty ! Being attached to FOREIGN OIL and dependent on the outside is NOT FREEDOM... Ask any former slave what a shackle around the ankle is... Quit the opposite in FACT... Saudi get's a little whack on oil production and everyone worldwide pays for it... and now the US is sending troops, arms & minutions at US Tax[payer cost for SAUDI OIL !! and Pajama Wearing Turbine Capped dictators pretending to be royalty because they beat everyone else to the oil...


Calm down

How do you plan to take C02 to zero?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> I'd have to say that rule against insulting is subjective...
> Leftist, pawns, pathetic, tree huggers *seem to pass just fine* when aimed at anyone supporting renewable energy.


So does "abhorrent scum", "cult" and "uneducated".


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Just look at all the opinions. Ain't it great?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Steve_S said:


> Anti-Liberty ! Being attached to FOREIGN OIL and dependent on the outside is NOT FREEDOM...


You do realize that BANNING stuff is anti-Liberty, correct? Have your little solar farms, have your little wind farms. Have your little matchbox electric vehicles. Eat kale grown a planter between the solar panels you have on your house. That is fine. Leave me to my Truck. Leave me to my steak. Leave me alone.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> The fear is palpable in this post, just by the choice of quote. Of course, *it's only my opinion*.


Of course.
Yours alone.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

It's something when the so called leader of the free world runs down a young lady wanting to help the world.
How meaningful to see someone so petty in such a high office.
Our ancestors must be puking in their graves.


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## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

Irish Pixie said:


> In that both are a voice for those of their generation? Yes.


Greta, and David Hogg are both child pawns using George Soros funds to push an adult agenda.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

CKelly78z said:


> Greta, and David Hogg are both child pawns using George Soros funds to push an adult agenda.


If you say so... I hold a different opinion. Who's correct?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Greta Thunberg’s school strike coincided neatly with the launch of a book about climate change written by her mother, Malena Ernman.


  
Who would have thought they would use her in such a way?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Dear Children,

I’m sorry adults have frightened you about climate change and how it might affect your future. You might be less afraid if you knew some facts that adults intentionally do not explain to you.

The news was once a source of real information, or so we thought. But in the modern world, the news people discovered they can make more money by presenting scary news regardless of whether it is true or not.

Nuclear energy used to be dangerous, back in the olden days. Today’s nuclear power plants (the ones built in the past 20 years all over the world) have killed zero people, and are considered the safest form of energy in the world.

The United Nations estimates that the economic impact of climate change will reduce the economy by 10% in eighty years. What they don’t tell you is that the economy will be about five times bigger and better by then, so you won’t even notice the 10% that didn’t happen

Throughout all modern history, when we humans see a problem coming from far away, we have a 100% success rate in solving it. Climate change is no different.

If you are worried about rising sea levels, don’t be. The smartest and richest people in the world are still buying property on the beach.

Adults sometimes like to use children to carry their messages because it makes it hard for the other side to criticize them without seeming like monsters.

Scott Adams
https://www.scottadamssays.com/2019/09/23/a-message-for-children-about-climate-change/


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> So your opinion is that Ms. Thunberg is a child at 16? And because she is a child, she must be a puppet of "someone else" because she can't understand the research she's done on climate change? Because she's 16? Female? Swedish? Has Aspberger's?
> 
> So you must consider all 16 year old human beings children, correct?


They *are* children.
They can't vote, they can't buy firearms and they have limited rights.
Some say they aren't "responsible" enough to do all those things until they are 21.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> Same old story, discredit, disavow, smear, insult, marginalize, deny, deny, deny...


How is that different from what you do?



JeepHammer said:


> It's not hard to understand, which is why I don't understand why everyone doesn't see it for what it is...


We do see it for what it is.
We've seen it all before.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> In that both are a voice for those of their generation? Yes.


No, both are misguided and looking for their 15 minutes of fame.
Not everyone "of their generation" agrees with them as you do.
Most of them are acting like normal teenagers.
Hogg wants a media career and Greta is just a spoiled little rich girl who is in for a rude awakening.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> So does "abhorrent scum", "cult" and "uneducated".


 I love when you talk like that.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


>


Glad to see you opening up


----------



## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Glad to see you opening up


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I prefer this for certain occasions'


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

no really said:


> I prefer this for certain occasions'


It's a perfect fit.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

CKelly78z said:


> Greta, and David Hogg are both child pawns using George Soros funds to push an adult agenda.


Proof? If you don't have any it is a lie


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> So you are telling me that our freedom of travel, independent movement, dietary choices, etc.. Will not be affected by policy that comes about from this Climate change sham? You should read some of the proposals lawmakers have puked up.


Travel? No.
Again, *YOU* won't notice a difference in travel, go where you want.
Why would the 'Liberty' to travel be restricted?
The MODE of travel might change a little, like going from walking to horse, or horse to automobile, but more like bias ply tires to radials, it will be a more fuel efficient vehicle, or even an electric vehicle.

I own 'Classic' cars, and personally I'm no fan of 7 miles to the gallon, drum brakes, breaker point ignitions, bias ply tires, leaf spring suspensions, no air conditioning, etc.



> The DOD is looking for an enemy's butt to kick.


That's entirely FALSE.
The mission of the DoD/Armed Forces is in the name, DEFENSE.
Defense of the US, and US interests around the world.
Only old rich guys use the military for 'Special Interest', and if you ask ANY service member, employee of DoD you will find a lot of resentment about being used for private, for profit interests, like big oil.

No service member in his right mind goes looking to get shot at since it's always touch & go who gets shot.



> Without one they risk their huge budget and, thereby, their jobs.


You are confusing military contract companies (for profit) with DoD/Armed Forces.

While the pay for government employed people has come up a little, it's still barely a living.
The money, billions of dollars, goes into equipment, assets that are owned by the government.



> The "Right" who is concerned about real enemies like bad world actors the likes of Hitler, Bin-Laden, etc.., are willing to give them gobs of money now.


Actually, the DoD/Armed Forces don't 'Worry' about dead people.
Currently it's Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, any other state that sponsors terrorism, fires on US & allied civilian & military aircraft, ships, personnel, can export nuclear materials, dealing with everything from terrorists to drug smugglers to pirates to cyber attacks.

You can also include 'Stateless' bad actors, like ISIS, communist insurgencies, etc.

While they can do quite well at interdiction of outside threats, like attacks on public water & power grids (DoD cyber command, NSA) there isn't much they can do about people seeking out the false/fictitious crap on the internet internally.

When someone 'Self Radicalizes' inside the US, white supremacists, NAZIs, Islamic extremists, Christian extremists, anti-government/anti-Constitution types, science deniers, climate change denier, or any mix of the above.
All the bad actors have to do is throw up a web page, throw out some memes, sit back and watch the shooting start...



> If they take up the Leftist Booger man of Climate change, they ensure that their budget is safe no matter which bunch of idiots hold DC power.


More propaganda.
Ground forces can't carry out missions in more frequent and more powerful sand storms, floods, hurricanes & cyclones, dodging ice burgs and some ice shelves the size of states.
The dust particles wear engines, propellers much faster, that means more down time for maintenance, chopper blades and propellers that are supposed to last 1,000 or 2,500 hours damaged beyond use in 150 hours or less, ships getting so severely damaged in storms that are increasing in both frequancy and intensity, radar that's not powerful enough to penetrate weather/particles in the air, engines scrapped in 1/10 the intended service life.

Since the US consumes 1/4 of the world's fossil fuels, and the military alone consumes 1/4 of that (not counting the rest of the government) both the cost and supply lines of that fossil fuel is a major issue for the DoD/Armed Forces.

The power grid fails on the east coast virtually blinded US bases, and that's also a big concern, simply because the power grid is at risk and has failed them repeatedly.
The DoD in general and the military in specific doesn't get the luxury of taking days off when equipment fails them, so they are removing as many weak links as possible.
Converting FREE sunlight or wind to electrical energy keeps them up and running at full strength, energy costs are fixed (free) and the solar/wind equipment is simply more reliable.



> I believe such companies do business to make money for themselves and shareholders. That is what they are there for. They do not threaten my liberty, nor, is it their place to protect it. The same cannot be said of government.


When I quote you I put 'Liberty' in quotes, the reason is 'Liberty' and Rights are two different things.
You Rights are guaranteed by the Constitution, your Rights are limited to the point where they infringe on the Rights of others.
*YOU* have NO RIGHT to force pollution on others since it harms them.
*YOU* don't loose any Rights, or 'Liberty' when renewables are used, it has zero impact on either your Rights or 'Liberty', you are free to buy fossil fuels, a generator, control systems, replace all that as necessary.

When you connect to a public utility *YOU* have no say in how that power is produced, you voluntarily gave away any say in how that power is produced, leaving it entirely up to the people running the utility.
Since the utility is regulated by both cost effectiveness and by pollution laws voted on by a majority of Representatives, again you had your input at the voting booth.

Doesn't matter who you voted for, they are all going to take campaign contributions, gray and dark money, support from bad actors via the Internet and paid pundits, and are going to increase personal wealth by about $1.5 million per year in their first term, increasing personal wealth every term for an average of 34 years in office.

The government is *Supposed* to protect the Rights of citizens, represent the people in their districts...
*IF* politicians can be dragged off the money pile, the opposition to fossil fuel use has to be intense since that particular demographic can't generate anywhere near the money big fossil fuels can and do.
It also means the pro-pollution/fossil fuel supporters are in the minority, and if you want to live in the US, under protection of the Constitution so you can have your 'Liberty', the majority rules, it's in the Constitution and it has been reviewed by the Supreme Court.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

If anyone is interested these are the 2017-2019 DOD statements having to do with climate change and proposals.

UPDATE: Chronology of U.S. Military Statements and Actions on Climate Change and Security: Jan 2017- August 2019

Since January 2017, at least thirty-two senior officials at the U.S. Defense Department (DoD) have publicly raised concerns about, and recommended actions to address, the security implications of climate change, both due to its effect on military infrastructure, readiness and operations, and its broader geostrategic implications for the United States.

https://climateandsecurity.org/2019...and-security-jan-2017-august-2019/#more-17883


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

no really said:


> If anyone is interested these are the 2017-2019 DOD statements having to do with climate change and proposals.
> 
> UPDATE: Chronology of U.S. Military Statements and Actions on Climate Change and Security: Jan 2017- August 2019
> 
> ...


I don't read as fast as @JeepHammer types, but I did not see CC being called the single biggest threat to national security. 

It seemed to point to some bases at risk from weather.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

More Gretaisms

"My message is that we'll be watching you. This is all wrong, I shouldn't be up here, I should be back in school on the other side of the ocean," Thunberg began. "Yet, you all come to us young people for hope, how dare you. You have stolen my dreams and my childhood with your empty words and yet I'm one of the lucky ones. *People are suffering, people are dying. Entire ecosystems are collapsing. We are in the beginning of a mass extinction* and all you can talk about is money and fairytales of eternal economic growth."


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

JeepHammer said:


> Let's not forget starvation as a weapon, in 1840 as many as 60 million buffalo, but in 1886 a scientific study could find fewer than 100 free ranging buffalo.
> The government gave away bullets, rifles and sponsored buffalo killing expeditions, with the pointed objective of removing the primary food source of the plains tribes.
> 
> Some examples are 'Gun Rights' people. Guns are things, not people, they don't have rights.
> ...


Couple things I want to point out in regard to this post.

Starvation, it has been documented that soldiers were sent out to destroy the growing crops and food stores of the woodland Indians living east of the Miss. This caused the death of thousands of non-hostile NA peoples from simple starvation, one of these instances (will have to look it up later, the documents are listed in one of Allan Eckertts Narratives of America books) took place just prior to a particularly severe winter.

Gun rights and background checks, even if available a background check would not have prevented several of the last mass shooters from obtaining firearms. Dick's is a dealer and the Texas firearm was obtained from a dealer.

Solar, homeless people don't have roofs. Apartment and condo dwellers live in buildings which would not produce enough power for even a small portion of the multi unit building even if the entire roof was covered in panels. Other people live in heavily wooded areas and have little to no sun hitting their roofs.

Electric vehicles, are electric semi trucks or trains available? What about vehicles that need to travel over 200 miles in one day? And how exactly are the batteries in an electric vehicle recharged????? They don't have solar panels on their roofs and even if they did apparently those chargers would not be adequate to charge the vehicle batteries. At least that is what I have been told by every electric vehicle designer I have spoke with, even the ones that have tried it with cars they have owned. They all have to get the power to charge the batteries somewhere. Right now those chargers are still powered by the electric grid which is largely powered by *fossil fuels!
*
Well water, makes a huge difference if the well is dug or drilled, proximity from the waste pit to the well, and is the well uphill or down from the waste pit? And don't forget that central sewer systems dump their treated waste water into the public surface water system.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> If you say so... I hold a different opinion. Who's correct?


In most cases.... Donald Trump.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> I did not see CC being called the single biggest threat to national security.


I don't think he did either.
Maybe he can cut and paste the actual quote to end the confusion.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> It's something when the so called leader of the free world *runs down a young lady* wanting to help the world.





> Trump said:
> "She seems like a very happy young girl looking forward to a bright and wonderful future. So nice to see!"


How does that "run down" anyone or anything?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> I love when you talk like that.


Those weren't my words.
They were quotes.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> More Gretaisms
> 
> "My message is that we'll be watching you. This is all wrong, I shouldn't be up here, I should be back in school on the other side of the ocean," Thunberg began. "Yet, you all come to us young people for hope, how dare you. You have stolen my dreams and my childhood with your empty words and yet I'm one of the lucky ones. *People are suffering, people are dying. Entire ecosystems are collapsing. We are in the beginning of a mass extinction* and all you can talk about is money and fairytales of eternal economic growth."


giving credit where it's due she got the first part right..... She should be home, going to school, trying to figure out how to perform acrobatic tricks in the back seat of a "Prius apart".


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

keenataz said:


> Proof? If you don't have any it is a lie


https://bigleaguepolitics.com/david-hogg-promotes-george-soros-linked-group/

https://freedomoutpost.com/soros-bl...unding-david-hoggs-anti-gun-student-protests/

https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...pumps-18-billion-into-his-political-apparatus


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> How does that "run down" anyone or anything?


Is that the truth?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Forget Antifa, rebel flags and politics. Walk into a crowd and yell global warming and run like heck because there WILL be a riot soon.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> Is that the truth?


It's what he said.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Here's some more "truth":

*"Climate Alarmists Foiled: No US Warming Since 2005*

By James Taylor
August 23, 2019

When American climate alarmists claim to have witnessed the effects of global warming, they must be referring to a time beyond 14 years ago. That is because there has been no warming in the United States since at least 2005, *according to updated data from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration* (NOAA).

In January 2005, NOAA began recording temperatures at its newly built U.S. Climate Reference Network (USCRN). USCRN includes 114 pristinely maintained temperature stations spaced relatively uniformly across the lower 48 states. NOAA selected locations that were far away from urban and land-development impacts that might artificially taint temperature readings.


Prior to the USCRN going online, alarmists and skeptics sparred over the accuracy of reported temperature data. With most preexisting temperature stations located in or near urban settings that are subject to false temperature signals and create their own microclimates that change over time, government officials performed many often-controversial adjustments to the raw temperature data. Skeptics of an asserted climate crisis pointed out that most of the reported warming in the United States was non-existent in the raw temperature data, but was added to the record by government officials. "
https://www.realclearenergy.org/art...larmists_foiled_no_us_warming_since_2005.html

I think someone said earlier we should be listening to data from NOAA.
I suspect they will ignore this data though.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Another interesting blog post.


Bearfootfarm said:


> https://bigleaguepolitics.com/david-hogg-promotes-george-soros-linked-group/
> 
> https://freedomoutpost.com/soros-bl...unding-david-hoggs-anti-gun-student-protests/
> 
> https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...pumps-18-billion-into-his-political-apparatus


LOL. Thank you for the very interesting links.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

The mountains have been washing out to the sea since they formed, which were once the sea floor before becoming mountains...…….and so they will be again and they will form again.


I guess dinosaur farts were the reason the poles were once thriving jungles...…..or based on what we call the facts now, there was a massive amount of co2 present, which was happening before mankind discovered fire.

You are living on a giant ball, that will kill all life in a second if it wants to, its dangerous and changing all the time,...You have no control over it......it also moves thru space, which will wipe out life in a second with a asteroid, which there are billions of just bouncing about like ping pong balls in a billion random directions.

But run on out and try to refreeze the poles...…..I will enjoy watching it,.....people are very interesting, you never know what they will fixate on next.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

shawnlee said:


> .people are very interesting, you never know *what they will fixate on* next.


Some run around looking for things to be "outraged" about.


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## D-BOONE (Feb 9, 2016)

it seems the goals for a greener society are little to no carbon foot print ,use only renewable resources,to live in harmony with the planet.
This society has already been achieved . It was achieved by a group of people that one on this forum has called the "ignorant savage" . They lived in harmony and left little to no carbon foot print. They did not deplete their natural resources and had little waste. Their society was one of laws and customs.
Now we seem to have a bunch of people screaming we need this type of society, too late youve already destroyed it and the second time it tried to come around you squashed it again by calling them dope headed hippies.When they tried living more in harmony with the planet more eco friendly housing better gardening and peace. But society made it impossible for them to continue. Go figure


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

Oh yes, let's show video at the start of every school day from Day Care, Kindergarten, clear up through every college class.
While we are at it, we should also force every single employer to make their employees watch this video every single day as well. Yes, let's do PROGRAM our young generation.

It's a simple solution, just quit using fossil fuels, and use renewable energy.

There have been many species that have gone extinct over the years. Some due to humans, others went extinct long before we were around. At some point in time, our species will be selected by Mother Nature to go extinct - or at the very least reduce our population by enormous measures. Think about it - the human species has populated the earth more than insect or animal has. When a population becomes too great for the environment to support it, a "population reducer" pops up to solve the solution. Doesn't matter if you are talking on a state scale, a country scale, or a world scale.

Yes, let's elect the environmentally thinking people who want to save the environment. I can envision a society in the near future, where people are selected by drawing to be eliminated. It won't matter if the person drawn is 8 years old or 80 years old. It must be done for the greater good of society.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> You do realize that BANNING stuff is anti-Liberty, correct?


People are at 'Liberty' to do pretty much any damned fool thing they want to.
If you want to drink bleach (which apparently is a 'Thing'), take 'Selfies' while they crash cars and fall of mountains/buildings/bridges, eat Tide pods... Whatever idiot thing pops into their minds.

What you CAN'T do is shoot at your neighbors, run your sewage line into other people's homes, burn other people's houses down, force anyone else to choke on your smoke/toxic waste...
Since those other people have Rights too, your 'Liberty' to drink gasoline is unrestricted, while you can't force others to drink gasoline.



> Have your little solar farms, have your little wind farms. Have your little matchbox electric vehicles.


In case you haven't been keeping track, solar, hydro and wind arrays power cities now...
I wouldn't call it 'Little' although some of it works on small scale.
Like all things mechanical, there is economy in scale.
With wind coming even with natural gas in cost per watt, beating petroleum in cost, and producing zero working emissions, there isn't a logical reason to argue against the wind power.

This isn't a war on electricity, it's about paying for the pollution in human lives, the economic costs of cleanups, the damage done by global climate change...

For some unknown reason you have linked 'Liberty' (when you mean Right) to use fossil fuels.
You gave away any Right to determine what fuel gets used when you joined an electric grid cooperative (YUP! You are a SOCIALIST!  ).
Public utilities, an entirely different set of rules, regulations and laws.



> Eat kale grown a planter between the solar panels you have on your house. That is fine. Leave me to my Truck. Leave me to my steak. Leave me alone.


Mmmmm! Steak! 
Almost sidelined there...

NO ONE CARES.
No one cares what you drive until it falls apart, rusts to dust.
No one cares about your diet, if that's what you want to spend your money on.
You are just another person of about 340 million in the US, 8 billion globally at any given time, only maybe a couple dozen know you well enough to care what you eat, drive etc and that's any average person in the US, or probably globally.

You 'LOSE' exactly NOTHING since you didn't know and didn't care where the watts were produced in the first place.

It wasn't until some web site gave you 'Your Opinion' on the subject that you even noticed there was a difference between generation methods.
All renewables do is take the fossil fuels and 1700s steam out of the process, using wind & water to move the generators, or convert sunlight directly into electricity when using PV.

It's that simple, instead of boiling water with fossil fuels, eliminating 60%-80% in thermal losses, that means 60%-80% of the fossil fuel is WASTED, does nothing but make pollution, the water & wind move the generators directly, while solar PV converts sunlight into electricity directly.
Do you run your 'Truck' 6 to 8 hours for every hour it's driven?
Do you throw away 6 to 8 steaks for every one you eat?


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

SRSLADE said:


> It's something when the so called leader of the free world runs down a young lady wanting to help the world.
> How meaningful to see someone so petty in such a high office.
> Our ancestors must be puking in their graves.


Not quite the idea I get when I think 'Acting Presidential'...



CKelly78z said:


> Greta, and David Hogg are both child pawns using George Soros funds to push an adult agenda.


Does anyone else have an issue with someone attacking the victim of a mass school shooting?
Does anyone else have an issue with dragging children speaking their own minds into some sore spot he has about political figure?
Does anyone else find this an insult to their intelligence?
One is personally vested in NOT seeing another school shooting since he was in one,
The other is a girl that wants to reduce pollution for everyone.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I've followed this thread sometimes with amusement others totally gobsmacked by the rhetoric. A little background I was off grid for quite a few years but as soon as I could I grid tied so I could do the things that I needed and wanted. Oh, clutch the pearls Virginia, I have wants, tough if you have a problem with it. I probably live as close or closer to the land than most, it is a good life but no body has the right to tell me how to live or what I should want. I've paid my damn dues and continue to pay them.

I'm glad for the little girl, she gets to shout her feelings to the world and will probably end up very wealthy. Was I impressed by her in some ways, yes. She has quite the ability to promote the issue that she and her group feel will benefit them the most.

So continue with the preaching, it can be amusing.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

JeepHammer said:


> Not quite the idea I get when I think 'Acting Presidential'..


He can't even pretend.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> Does anyone else find this an insult to their intelligence?


No more than being called uneducated cult members.
The fact you don't agree doesn't make it an "attack" unless *all* "attacks" matter.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> *In case you haven't been keeping track*, solar, hydro and wind arrays power cities now..


Not 100% and not without conventional backup power sources.
They merely provide intermittent power when conditions allow.
Hydro works well where it can be used, which isn't much of the world.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

HDRider said:


> I don't read as fast as @JeepHammer types, but I did not see CC being called the single biggest threat to national security.
> 
> It seemed to point to some bases at risk from weather.


Here is one that's about Trump trying to shut down any preparations for climate change in the military, despite every branch, the joint chiefs, the secretary of defense warning of climate change issues.
That would be a science/climate change denier working AGAINST the best interests of DoD and our military people...

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...lobal-warming-even-though-trump-said-to-stop/

Did it get past you the joint chiefs of staff, secretary of defense have spent time studying this issue while we have China overrunning the south Pacific, Iran launching missiles at anyone and any thing, Russia encroaching on US coastlines, North Korea lobbing missiles at Japan, etc.?

How about the Navy viewpoint on things,

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2017/october/war-plan-orange-climate-change

How about what the rest of the western world is doing...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...threats-military-officials-warn-idUSKCN1QA2B3

We are still in a 19 year war,
And the joint chiefs, SecDef is 'Wasting Time' on climate change, even after Trump ordered them to stop... Dedicated, educated professional that spent their entire lives defining the country...
A 20 year war on 3 fronts, and these guys are worried about climate change, and that doesn't raise any flags for you?


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> People are at 'Liberty' to do pretty much any damned fool thing they want to.
> If you want to drink bleach (which apparently is a 'Thing'), take 'Selfies' while they crash cars and fall of mountains/buildings/bridges, eat Tide pods... Whatever idiot thing pops into their minds.
> 
> What you CAN'T do is shoot at your neighbors, run your sewage line into other people's homes, burn other people's houses down, force anyone else to choke on your smoke/toxic waste...
> ...


CO2 is not a pollutant. If you followed your train of logic to its rational conclusion, that CO2 is a pollutant and it is immoral/should be illegal to pollute...well you go first since you exhale it regularly as do all other animals. 

If you would quit throwing out strawmen (no one is propollution) and red herrings (the world is ending unless you bow down to my virtue) and educated yourself a bit more and dialed back the rhetoric, someone might actually listen to a rational argument....when you make one.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> giving credit where it's due she got the first part right..... She should be home, going to school, trying to figure out how to perform acrobatic tricks in the back seat of a "Prius apart".


That sounds suspiciously like, "Girls should, Shut up, Stay home, Get pregnant."


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> A 20 year war on 3 fronts, and these guys are worried about climate change, and that doesn't raise any flags for you?


Obama is so worried he bought a beachfront home.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Obama is so worried he bought a beachfront home.


This one?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> This one?


I don't know and I don't really care.
It's irrelevant to the point I made.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)




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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

JeepHammer said:


> That sounds suspiciously like, "Girls should, Shut up, Stay home, Get pregnant."



Sorta like the president should make pretty for daddy and act presidential......

The world as most know it is a Façade...…..

The words,..."You have been living in a dream world Neo", is not just random movie line jargon,...its quite accurate for most.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Irish Pixie said:


> This one?


That is a nice pad. I wonder if the Clinton Foundation, China, Ukraine or Russia paid for it....well through channels of course.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Hiro said:


> CO2 is not a pollutant. If you followed your train of logic to its rational conclusion, that CO2 is a pollutant and it is immoral/should be illegal to pollute...well you go first since you exhale it regularly as do all other animals.


If you believe that CO2 isn't toxic concentrated, attach hose to any tail pipe and breath deeply.

If you don't believe CO2 in atmosphere changes the weather, then you have no idea how solar radiation works through gasses.
Since the science is denied, then glass green house don't work.
Argon & CO2 filled insulating windows don't work, even though millions are in use and they do work.

People that deny science can't make the connection.



> If you would quit throwing out strawmen (no one is propollution)


That would be every person selling fossil fuels, no 'Straw Man' needed.
Fossil fuels produce pollution, 60%-80% is wasted as nothing but pollution since the laws of thermodynamics dictate rules, and the boiled water via fossil fuel can ONLY be 20%-40% energy efficient.



> and red herrings (the world is ending unless you bow down to my virtue)


I never said the 'World' was going to end since I know the difference between the planet and the closed biosphere we live in.



> and educated yourself a bit more


I'm not the one that can't differentiate between planet and living biosphere, 
I'm not the one that doesn't understand insulating properties of CO2,
I'm not the one that believes CO2 is non-toxic in any amounts...
I'm not then one that doesn't understand we EXHALE CO2 because it's a toxic waste product in concentration in humans.



> and dialed back the rhetoric, someone might actually listen to a rational argument....


Nothing but ration, reason, science...
I'm not the one that drags politics into a science conversation, religion into a political conversation, can't differentiate between 'Liberty', Rights, and all the other stuff dragged into this thread.



> when you make one.


Out of rational arguments, science, rational thought, so it's insult time...
Education allows me to recognize when logic and reason has run out and ego takes over...


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Hiro said:


> That is a nice pad. I wonder if the Clinton Foundation, China, Ukraine or Russia paid for it....well through channels of course.


It's very nice... but it's not Obama that has ties to any of those places. 

ETA: Michelle probably paid for it from her book sales.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> If you believe that CO2 isn't toxic concentrated, attach hose to any tail pipe and breath deeply.
> 
> If you don't believe CO2 in atmosphere changes the weather, then you have no idea how solar radiation works through gasses.
> Since the science is denied, then glass green house don't work.
> ...


Your scientific knowledge is lacking, as is your education in the field. You change CO2 isn't a pollutant into "CO2 isn't toxic concentrated" to fool who? Any chemical can be toxic if concentrated. 

You say "glass green house don't work". Wow, no one knew. Put green house glass over something and don't control for anything else.......strawman and derision to someone who actually is a scientist. 

You really should stick to what you know......whatever that might be.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

no really said:


> I've followed this thread sometimes with amusement others totally gobsmacked by the rhetoric. A little background I was off grid for quite a few years but as soon as I could I grid tied so I could do the things that I needed and wanted. Oh, clutch the pearls Virginia, I have wants, tough if you have a problem with it. I probably live as close or closer to the land than most, it is a good life but no body has the right to tell me how to live or what I should want. I've paid my damn dues and continue to pay them.
> 
> I'm glad for the little girl, she gets to shout her feelings to the world and will probably end up very wealthy. Was I impressed by her in some ways, yes. She has quite the ability to promote the issue that she and her group feel will benefit them the most.
> 
> So continue with the preaching, it can be amusing.



It's hilarious to watch a bunch of homesteaders argue over ecological footprints.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Obama is so worried he bought a beachfront home.


He'll have to jack it up 3 meters a year.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> If you believe that CO2 isn't toxic concentrated, *attach hose to any tail pipe* and breath deeply.


That's CO, not CO2



JeepHammer said:


> I'm not then one that doesn't understand we EXHALE CO2 because it's a *toxic waste product in concentration* in humans.


So is salt or water.



JeepHammer said:


> Out of rational arguments, science, rational thought, so *it's insult time*...
> *Education* allows me to recognize when logic and reason has run out and ego takes over..


There's that implication once more.
Any who don't agree are "uneducated"....


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Could be a pattern.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

This seems to have run it's course.


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