# 9 yo Can't do simple math



## redbudlane

Part of this is asking for help and part is simply a vent so please bear with me.

My son is 9 yo and considered 4th grade. This is our 3rd year homeschooling. He has always struggled with math. All I can say is the kid just doesn't get it, AT ALL! He still doesn't have his simple addition and subtraction facts down nor can he figure out borrowing and carrying. We have tried Mathusee, simple worksheets, flashcards and now we are using Making Math Meaningful. He doesn't get any of it! I can show him how to borrow and he'll do it fine then the next day it's like he's never seen it before. :grit: I feel like we've done enough simple addition and subtraction to train an elephant but yet he still doesn't have 5-3 memorized. He doesn't grasp the concept of number families. Should we just bite the bullet and have him tested for a learning disability? Where do you have something like that done? Is it me, am I doing it wrong? Ugh :doh:


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## fastbackpony

Redbudlane,

I am sorry you are going through this. As a first year homeschooler, I do not have much advise  sorry. 

Not sure about the testing thing either - would it help to know he has learning difficulty in this area, seems like you already realize this.

Possibly keep working with him on math at the level he can grasp - and then focus his excitement and energy on something he is really good at. He could have special gifts for other things. If the focus was on all the other stuff he is good at, his self esteem and self confidence won't be damaged too much by having less than perfect math brain.

There is a chance the math stuff will just click one of these days, by then all your tears, and worrying will be a distant memory.

Also as an encouragement, my daughters teacher 4th grade, could not do math at all in the public school, she couldn't explain it, teach it or anything ! I had another friend before that was a teacher, certified, 4 yr degree and everything, and couldn't do math much at all. These people are 30+.

Don't stress about this - he just has other gifts - and by 12th grade, he will have a great overall concept of real life math, if you keep working little by little.

my two cents  fastbackpony


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## RockyGlen

What is his learning style? If he is kinesthetic, try Miquon Math. If it is auditory, try reciting the facts out loud together. If he is visual, try using tons of manipulatives and showing him the facts. Try playing math games - we love mad math and flip 4. Bingo with the addition and subtraction problems are also fun. Offer prizes, have a good time.

Find his strengths and tailor your curriculum to use them. I would take a week off math, have fun that week, and go at it with a fresh attitude and a new start. If you are stressed and frustrated and wondering about his ability - so is he.

As for learning disability - What benefit is a diagnosis going to give you, verses the drawbacks of the label?


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## Teri

I have a couple of kids like this (both girls). One is 11 and this year I tried Rod and Staff math with her and it is working very well. It is a lot of repetition of facts, but she needs it. I started her in the 4th grade book and she has made great progress. The other daughter is 14 and is working out of Saxon 87 (her choice). She's a bright kid (great fiction writer) but, I don't think she'll ever "get" math. My husband goes through it everyday with her, babysteps. It requires a lot of patience. I wish we had done Rod and Staff with her as well. The mastery approach would have worked better, but it's too late now.


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## okgoatgal2

have you tried using manipulatives, like base 10 blocks, with him? do some research on how to use them. i've found them very helpful for quite a few of my students (i'm a middle school math teacher). it may also help to take him back to a numberline so he can see how the numbers work within patterns. not counting, but that at 10, the ones place begins over at "1". at 20, the ones begins again at "1" and the tens stays the same until 30. place value is very important in understanding carrying and borrowing. (now called regrouping). pennies and dimes may also help, too, if he understands money. you may have to think way outside the box to reach him in math.


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## RichieC

Teach him to play cribbage.


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## Ark

This may be TOTALLY wrong for your situation, but I thought I would just share this with you.
My son can NOT learn or remember anything he learned before when he eats something he is allergic to. And the list of things he is allergic to is rather long! 
As soon as the offending food is out of his system, he can suddenly remember things that he learned before, and learn some more. His spelling and math skills improve dramatically when he is eating right.


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## cindyc

I really hate giving a "product" as an answer to a question like this, but what really helped my kids with math basics is a game called MATH IT. You can get them from ebay pretty cheap. I don't think they make it anymore. My friend tells me that if they get through all of the parts of math it to where they can do it without thinking, they can go right in to saxon 5/4. That would put your child on grade level in math. This worked with some neighbor kids of mine that I tutored for a while last year who were really behind in math too. The one that was going into fifth grade this year was able to do Math IT with very little math background at all, then move into 5/4 and start 5th grade this year on grade level in a public school.

FWIW, we do a LOT of memorization here. We think it is important to higher maths to not have to count on ones fingers whilst doing algebraic equations. Even so we do NOT use flash cards! The way to do memory with a small child is through GAMES and CHANTS and SONGS... the FUN stuff that they LIKE to do, so they don't know they are memorizing! Then once they have the skill, they will memorize things by your saying "go memorize this".  A good book on memory techniques (for you not for the child) might help you to think through other ways to get over this hurdle. 

I hope that helps. 
Cindyc.


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## Callieslamb

My DS has to have a reason to learn anything. Not just math. If he can apply it to his life or see why he needs to learn it - he will learn it. Usually after I have spent hours and hours and his dad 15 minutes and a set of dice.


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## MaggieJ

This may be a totally useless suggestion... but I figure it can't hurt. Try teaching the adding and subtracting with concrete items: bottle caps, coins, poker chips, buttons or the like. Have a supply of numbers and plus/minus/equal signs on index cards so that you can demonstrate the abstract concept side by side with the concrete. His problem may be that he needs the concrete to visualize.

I'm not sure if I am being clear or not. If the question is seven plus four, set out the cards like this:
7 + 4 =
**
** + **** =
** 
*

Playing cards (minus the face cards) my also help because they have the numbers and the spots. Put a sticker over the A on the aces and print a number 1. 

Maybe you've already tried this, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway. Good luck!


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## kidsngarden

My daughter is dyslexic. She has been tested 3 times, and darn it! She's still dyslexic.  She is in the 5th grade and her very hardest subject is math. She has an inability to retain information in her short term memory so math is a huge struggle!

I suggest you read the book "the gift of dyslexia" I can't remember the author off hand right now. But it talks about how dyslexics need a picture to keep things in thier head. like the above post. Whether or not he is "dyslexic" (and we all know this is just a label for so many different learning disabilities) the exercises in that book with clay, etc. may really help.

The facts for my daughter are this: She may NEVER be a math whiz. It's likely she won't. Three different specialists have told me she will likely always need a cheat sheet or calculator throughout her life. We still keep trying though! Repetition has proven effective, but very irritating for me! Because of our personalities and the stress of homeschooling her (I can't tell you how many years of telling her HUNDREDS of times what a quarter is worth and she is just now getting it!) I put her in public school where she is in a special ed program and is improving much better than with the struggle we had at home every day. She still is not multiplying except for the simplest of facts, but she is understanding math conceptually better and improving at a faster rate.

It has taken me a bit of time to "get over" her being dyslexic. I've totally worried for her. But it is not the end of the world and she has many other gifts that are not academic like her sixth sense with animals, a voice like and angel, and she is very good in art. It has really helped for me to focus on those things which was much easier when I didn't have to be the one teaching her everyday. I'm not saying you should put your son in PS, but that I sympathize with what you are going through. It is so hard to teach a dyslexic child, it requires so much time and patience. 

Good luck with your son!
Bethany


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## Terri

Alas, every child is different. 

My own son has a terrible rote memory but a good story memory (the testing pointed this out. Though there are different types of testing)

OK. Instead of memorizing his math facts (which would be rote memory), we worked on theory (which is story memory) and he counted on his fingers until he was in the forth or fifth grade. That's fine, he could DO it!!!!!!!!

My son is a strong visual and tactile (touch) learner, so we used m&m's to study math. He had a lot of trouble relating to numbers, but, heaps of candy he WAS able to understand!


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## Tareesa

I had a hard time with remebering number facts when I was a child. Then in HS it just clicked. Now my degree is in accounting...so there is hope.

I had a "Mr. Wizard" that helped me immensely as a kid. My son loved "Math Shark". It's a handheld game, and works really well. http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2267539 Someone metioned using concrete items as well to reinforce. That's what I do with my daughter. Such as: "if you have 3 apples and you give 2 to your brother, how many apples will you have left?" It has worked very well for her, and she still struggles at times, but she is still in 1st grade.

Games such as Yahtzee and Dominos could be very helpful as well.


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## XCricketX

My 8 year old son (diagnosed autism) picked up math really well, when I started giving him money, and having him go up to counters to buy his own things, and figure ways of getting more money up.
He's a little obsessed with money though.... so this really helped when I incorporated math into it.

Find something that he REALLY REALLY likes... if it is spider man... then get him the spider man L-max math game. <---Just an example (not even sure they have one, but you get the idea) ... but get something that will make it fun and extremely desirable.

Cricket


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## WindowOrMirror

newsflash, some people suck at math.

Are there things that he's good at? If so, use those to bolster his self-confidence and bring him slowly to a working knowledge of simple math and don't worry about the fact that he won't be a civil engineer for a living.

R


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## Catty

My 11 yo dd had trouble with the very basics of math. We are fortunate enough to be enrolled in a home study school so there are "counselors" available to us. I called about this very thing a couple of years ago and you know what they said? Give it time. Math is something that is repeated over and over and eventually, they get it. Low and behold, dd is doing squares and square roots just two years after not understanding rounding! Time is one of our greatest gifts. She is also just starting to read on her own grade level. I have learned over the years not to fret these things...I have one that graduates college next year and one that started college this year. The one that started this fall is autistic - and he qualified for the nursing program at the local junior college, much to our pleasant surprise. He couldn't do math until the 6th grade, now, he's acing algebra. He couldn't read until 4th grade and now he's acing English comp I. They won't die or go on drugs if their lessons take a little longer to learn. :baby04: Good luck and try to cut yourself some slack.


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## DocM

Honestly speaking, your son probably does have a learning "difference". All the advice you've gotten could be broken up into "more memorization" and "try a different curriculum". I don't think either is the answer for your son. He may simply have a poor memory, but can be trained to have a better memory with many different products. A company I like, that has many different manipulatives and games is:
http://www.rempub.com/

In the meantime, don't hold him back in math because he can't memorize his math facts. Let him use a multiplication chart. Let him go slow and count on his fingers to add (or a number line, or whatever manipulative allows him to visually add or subtract two numbers). I seriously doubt he does not understand the concept of adding or subtracting or dividing or multiplying numbers, he just can't remember the "facts" and that slows him down to a point where he can't focus on the concept. "Fact families" are just more memorization of facts. Drop the insistence that he memorize facts, go slow with the concepts, let him use tools to complete his math, and work on his memory. His memory will improve over time, it's likely just a maturity developmental "thing", and he'll be fine. Have him tested. How is he with small motor? How about physically writing, is holding a pencil a chore? How is his reading level? 

If it's any consolation, I'm working with an 18 yr old who, in august, probably tested at about the same math level as your son. By employing a multiplications chart, not forcing him to "memorize" facts, and going slow, he's come up about 4 grade levels in 3 months. It's all well and good to say that memorization is key to learning, but it's not a one size fits all cure, and not every student can or will memorize well.


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## roncarla

Let him try www.funbrain.com. It has fun games at graded levels where he can start at the beginning (simple addition) and continue until it's difficult for him. It is great for building confidence in math skills. My daughter enjoys it for practicing multiplication. She's pretty good with math but she just can't remember the times table.


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## Ohio dreamer

I had a very wise professor in college tell us to memorize nothing. It was a power technology class, so there were tons of equations we used. He was a stickler for note taking and our notebooks were graded (we turned them in with our tests which were open note). His opinion was if you uses it that much you will naturally memorize it, otherwise know where to find the information quickly. Let your son use mulitplaction charts, addition charts, etc. I didn't learn my facts until 6th grade...for some reason the light just clicked on and I had it...I still struggle with spelling.

Although, if you son is having trouble with the math concepts (why do we add, barrow, etc) then I would have him tested. If you don't live in a school district that allows homeschoolers to use their resources for free, go to your family Dr. There could be an underlying problem such as a learning difficulty or allergies. I personally would want to know as it may help you learn of a route that would help him. In a homeschool situation you really aren't putting a label on him. Unless you start advertising that my child has..... who would know? 

If he has been working on the same math for many years he may begin feeling he can't do it and will quit trying. So I would move him along at his pace. Ask him if he is ready for the next concept or wants to work on this one more. At 9 he may do better if he has a little control over the situation...but that may make it more stressful on you...watching my child struggle is VERY hard on me.

I'll stop rambling now...


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## hoggie

One trick I read was to have the charts hanging in a different room to the one you use for schooling. When he needs an answer, he has to get up and go and look it up on the chart. He will have to remember it to get back to the schoolroom. Therefore, everytime he uses it he is practising memorising it?

hoggie


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## mrs_onmyway

My 9 year old was having a problem with multipication so we got the game Arithmachips. They have a verion for addition, subtraction and division also. She loves to play it and try to beat mom and her siblings.


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## FrodoLass

okgoatgal2 said:


> have you tried using manipulatives, like base 10 blocks, with him? do some research on how to use them. i've found them very helpful for quite a few of my students (i'm a middle school math teacher). it may also help to take him back to a numberline so he can see how the numbers work within patterns. not counting, but that at 10, the ones place begins over at "1". at 20, the ones begins again at "1" and the tens stays the same until 30. place value is very important in understanding carrying and borrowing. (now called regrouping). pennies and dimes may also help, too, if he understands money. you may have to think way outside the box to reach him in math.


This is my suggestion also. Make sure your son actually understands what addition and subtraction mean. Go back and use manipulatives...he just may need to work with concrete materials for a while.


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## Ronney

I'm going to give you another perception - my own. 

I look back on my young years and remember the dread of arithmetic at school. I remember the dread of homework that involved arithmetic. I remember being the only person in the class who could not recite the times tables, who could not do long division, would could not grasp the concept of fractions, who could not, in fact, grasp the concept of figures at all. 

I am now 55 and still cannot recite the times tables and if you were to ask me what 8 x 6 = I would stumble but I could give you a correct answer because I've evolved my own way of doing it. I can work out percentages faster than my husband and mentally add faster than most by using my own funny methods. I surprisingly went on to become a bookkeeper and today, do all the book work for my husbands business and pride myself that is it perfect. 

If your son is doing well in other aspects of his education, I would advise backing off the maths part of it and letting him come to his own way of doing things. Every aspect of our lives involves figures, even reading a book. Every page has a number! Get him cooking and measuring out what he needs. If he has 10 piglets and he's going to sell them for $50.00 each, how much money will he have. If you pay him $1.50 pocket money per week, how much will he have in a year. If he has a cow that produces 25 litres of milk a day and a calf drinks 5 litres per day, how many calves could that cow feed. If he's going to spray weeds but the instructions only give it in mls per 100lts and he's only got a 5 litres sprayer, how many mls per litre is he going to need. Use maths in a practical way for him whenever you can and it will probably start to make sense for him. He may never be a mathematical genius but he will be able to get through life.

Good luck, I feel for both of you but him especially.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## Quinton

http://www.amazon.com/Unicorns-Are-Real-Right-Brained-Parenting/dp/0915190354

Unicorns are Real: 

One of the best books with actual ideas to help those who do not "learn" in the normal fashion.

There are lot of other books similar on the bottom of the page.


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## redbudlane

I just wanted to take a moment and thank everyone for all of your support, advice and suggestions. We have decided to go with Math on the Level next year and will concentrate more on using math in every day life situations. After doing a lot of poking around on the net and reading, I have decided that he probably has some degree of dyscalculia, basically dyslexia in math. So he's not going to be a math whiz, we will at least prepare him the best we can for LIFE. He got to the point where he hates math so we will start over and try to make math fun. Thanks again, I know I can always count on my HT friends!


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## Sonshine

This sounds so similar to my DS age 10. Although, MathUSee seems to be working for him. Have him checked for memory. My DS has poor short term memory, and until it gets into long term repetition is the key.


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## p1gg1e

Have you tried beating a drum and/or an abacus? Try beating the drum and using it to count and do math with?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus

Just a thought, maybe he is just going to take off here soon? I 2nd the allergy.


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## okiemom

I am 33 and still go into a sweat when it comes to trying to come up with the answers in my head. I see patterns but can not get numbers. I know phone numbers not tby the number but the pattern. I can "see" whick buttons I am hitting based on where they are on the pad so I can recite the number but if I have not diled them I don't know them. My girlfriend could remember numbers she dialed only once. 

I can not do math in my head at all. MY Dad could do fairly hard math in his head and I would get lost. I couldn't keep the numbers straight. 

I get the theory of math and could tell some one how to do it but for some reason I just can't get the "exact" answer. I am the only one I know who can imput into a calculator the same thing 3x's and get 3 answers. Being bad at math gave me big problems on my self worth and would always keep my GPA lower. I would do great in English, Natural Science, History, but the math based classes ate my lunch. Got A's in half the classes and C's and D's in others so my average was always c+ or b- 

I was always told I just "didn't get it" now I am sure they would have another way to help teach me. I have wondered if I could ever do math classes again so I could get it. I had Algebra, chem. classes, a degree in Forestry and Horticulture so I did ok. Not I don't use it as I am a SAHM. I keep a calculator with me and use dh to double check.


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## OJ Rallye

Besides ADH, my grandson had trouble learing without valid to him reason and motivation to learn. When he was 4, he refused to learn numbers. He came in the shop and was helping diassemble a race engine. I told him we had to number some parts to keep them in order. "That's important stuff!" A couple of days later was the end of the month. I was tearing off the calender page...."Grandpa, can I have that to practice nunmbers and counting?"

INterest and flash cards is what got us through basic math. The multiplication flashcards got tedious but eventually it worked.

There must be something he's interested in that requires basic math. Football scoring or whatever?


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## Terri

redbudlane said:


> I just wanted to take a moment and thank everyone for all of your support, advice and suggestions. We have decided to go with Math on the Level next year and will concentrate more on using math in every day life situations. After doing a lot of poking around on the net and reading, I have decided that he probably has some degree of dyscalculia, basically dyslexia in math. So he's not going to be a math whiz, we will at least prepare him the best we can for LIFE. He got to the point where he hates math so we will start over and try to make math fun. Thanks again, I know I can always count on my HT friends!


I taught my son basic math by using M&M's. You have 5, if you eat 2 (and give him 2), then how many will you have?

It had the benefit of catching his attention.


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## cindy-e

redbudlane said:


> I just wanted to take a moment and thank everyone for all of your support, advice and suggestions. We have decided to go with Math on the Level next year and will concentrate more on using math in every day life situations. After doing a lot of poking around on the net and reading, I have decided that he probably has some degree of dyscalculia, basically dyslexia in math. So he's not going to be a math whiz, we will at least prepare him the best we can for LIFE. He got to the point where he hates math so we will start over and try to make math fun. Thanks again, I know I can always count on my HT friends!


Sounds like a good plan. I know that we have a kid with dysgraphia. So the accomodation we chose was to teach her keyboarding as quickly as possible. If he can understand concepts, I think it would be totally appropriate for him to use a calculator as an accomodation. With the advent of the cell phone, he will probably always have one with him as he gets older. Calculators are allowed in most upper level math classes, and if he goes the community college route, he may not even have to worry about SAT's or anything. But even if he does, if you have him officially diagnosed, he can have accomodation on the test. Of course there are some *Serious* down sides to that too, so you should research and decide if you really want/need to go that route before you do it! 
All that to say, in this day and age, it doesn't have to be a hardship on him. 
BTW my kids are learning disabled too (two of them) and that is *why* memorization worked for them. If a child can't do the actual math because of a disability, then just knowing the right answer because they know it may not be all that bad? But that is conjecture on my part. Math is not the area of my children's disability. For some people memorization has a bad wrap, but what works, works. When you have an LD kid, you have to do what works for them. You can't hold any one philosophy too tightly. But you'll figure it out together. Cindy.


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