# LGD confusion



## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

Moved from working animal forum

I am confused about adding an LGD for our small herd of goats. While we've had no issue until now, it seems each year the coyotes are more prevalent so I'm rolling this around in my head.

The facts: we have 4-6 dairy goats on ~5 acres, with boys fenced separately from girls and multiple shelters. We have neighbors on each side and a beef cattle farm behind us. We also have chickens that free range during the day and overnight inside a stall in the barn. Primarily the coyotes are in the 100 acres behind us, confirmed by some trail cameras and the farmer.

Several years ago we bought a ~3 year old GP that had been guarding goats, with exposure to free range chickens and an occasional calf mixed in. We went there and watched her with the animals twice before we brought her home. We brought her home and kept fencing between our goats and the GP. We kept her on a leash to introduce her to our goats. She charged at the goats, ran up and down the fence barking and growling, dragging us behind. She tried to go through/over/around the fences to get to the goats, she tried to bite us. We got lots of suggestions and tried lots of things to acclimate her but eventually we had to find her a new home because our goats were pretty much afraid any time we brought her out and we were tired to being dragged around. Needless to say, we were pretty disappointed.

We thought getting an older, experienced LGD would be a good idea but that really didn't work out. So I'm still trying to figure out how to introduce an LGD.
Questions -
Better to start with a puppy raised with working parent(s)?
Is it then 2 years before you can trust them with the animals without supervision?
There will be times when things need to get done elsewhere. What do you do with the dog during those 2 years, when you can't be there to supervise?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Care and training any LGD is a huge task. Often a LGD will bark all night to scare away predators. On 5 acres that presents far more problems. For a "flock" of half dozen, I'd put them in at night and forget a LGD. Perhaps a donkey would be an easier way to protect your goats.


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

mzgarden said:


> Questions -
> Better to start with a puppy raised with working parent(s)?
> Is it then 2 years before you can trust them with the animals without supervision?
> There will be times when things need to get done elsewhere. What do you do with the dog during those 2 years, when you can't be there to supervise?


Hi Mzgarden! I would first recommend researching breeders near you who are set up with a similar style/livestock and get to know them. It's a bit of an old wives' tale about the 2-year thing. Can you imagine the original breeders of livestock guardians tolerating dogs who take 2 years to be of much use, or even detrimental to their flocks? A young dog bred from a sound lineage should be comfortable around stock from an early age. This doesn't mean they won't require training and work.

If you're on Facebook (or even if you aren't!) I would in a heartbeat recommend Farei Kennels LGD Training & Education https://www.facebook.com/groups/1828786214072789/. Not only is a run by people with active, stable LGDs but they're also trainers and well-versed with the quirks of guardian breeds.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mzgarden said:


> Questions -
> Better to start with a puppy raised with working parent(s)?
> Is it then 2 years before you can trust them with the animals without supervision?
> There will be times when things need to get done elsewhere. What do you do with the dog during those 2 years, when you can't be there to supervise?


Get a puppy from a *working* bloodline, not someone's "yard dog half-breed mutt".

Put the pup in a pen inside the pasture so the animals can interact but not touch.

Go out as often as possible and let the pup roam inside the pasture and barn. 

At feeding time, teach it to sit and stay before it gets it's food.

The guarding will come naturally and they will start "working" at a very young age.
They just won't be physically able to fight other canines until they get closer to a year old.

Get a shock collar if they develop habits that need to be broken quickly, such as playing too rough or chasing the animals for fun.

LGD's tend to be highly intelligent and will learn quickly if you just let them know what you want at an early age. 

Getting an older dog seldom works as well.


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

@altair @haypoint @Bearfootfarm - thank you. We have not made a decision to pursue an LGD but I did want to try to get a better understanding of where we went wrong the first time. Much to think about. Thank you for your help.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mzgarden said:


> Much to think about.


I've found many good ideas here:
http://lgd.org/trainfaqs.html


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

My daughter's family for a LGD (Pyr) because all sorts of things were killing their birds, and some of those birds were pretty expensive. They went to their vet to ask about a LGD, and he suggested an Amish family he knew who had good dogs. A 6 month old pup was available, and the family let daughter watch the pup around all the animals and there were no problems. The family said that all of their pups STAYED with the animals. They took little Dolly home and did not lose one more bird until after Dolly died.

And yeah, she barked a lot.

Mon


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

up until last year we raised many Maremma LGD. 
we now have only one female that the vet described as generic.
our dogs only barked when there was something to bark at. coyotes howling, a deer walking within a quarter mile away, ..
we had one pup who was a left over that was about 6 months old, by then we didn't have any birds or livestock anymore. someone contacted us who did not want to bother with a small puppy. we sold them this male puppy and he went right to work for them, within a week he was sleeping with their horses, and later on he decided to stay closer to the chicken coop. 
I think these people would rather give up a child before letting the dog go..
don't be mislead, the young pups can put up a pretty fierce fight..
and also, don't get into the mindset that the LGD has to be quarentined from people. they are friendly dogs and do know the preds from people. not that they don't bark at strangers, they do. that is their job.
but my female knows that if I say it is OK, she is fine with it..
we also brought the dogs into the house each afternoon for happy hour. they are well behaved naturally in the house and don't go tearing around inside. 
very easily trained and love all the family members.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Well, my experience with an LGD is definitely limited in that I've only owned one, i.e. a Bulgarian Karakachan. My experience with this dog has proven to me these dogs (or at least my one) do not need training to any great extent as guarding is innate to their character. I brought this dog home when it was only 8 weeks old and had had no real time to watch its parents/syblings work; so what she learned was what she experienced on my little 6 acres. 

EXAMPLE: Her interest in "playing" with a rooster was quickly deterred by a clap of human hands to distract her.

EXAMPLE: Lifting her up by the back of her neck quickly brought out her aggressiveness but also quickly taught her I was as serious as she was.

EXAMPLE: A "calm/assertive" manner on my part was the real base of all my interactions with this dog; and she was "willing" to learn as long as such was not "forced" on her.

My thread about her details much of what was experienced with this canine! 

I have free-ranging goats, free-ranging fowl of many descriptions (even flying guineas) & even a house cat was on the premises for the first few years of this dog's life here. 

I actually attempted to cage her within the goat area of the barn so as to introduce her to them; however, she continually escaped and would simply hang around them...even baby goats.

My son walked her around the parameter fence the first year she was here and even now she continues to do that often. 

I cannot say enough about this breed. Maybe I lucked out with this particular pup; maybe these propensities are inherent in the breed...I do not know. I just know that so much of the problems others have had with their LGDs (even at a young age and thru adolescents) I have not had with this one.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

what you said about your breed is true of many LGD breeds.
I have one female Maremma left. she is our people of the house guardian and companion now. we don't have any other livestock or birds anymore..
there are LGD's out there with very bad habits. I turned down a free female Maremma because of the many bad habits she had.. not her fault, the guy who raised her was a moron.. she also turned out to be the meanest dog I ever encountered..
I know the man who did take her.. he was going to train her with love.. she bit him seven days in a row..
I have not heard from him for over a year, . for all I know she probably ate him by now..
today my wife showed me a face book blurb about a 7 year old G Pyr that was confined to a 12'x12' stall for six years.. pathetic. what people do to animals..
they clipped 35 pounds of matted fur off of the dog.
look for Lazarus..
..........jiminwisc........


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## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

I've never really had an issue with aggression toward animals (some food aggression which can be serious since you want to feed animals around them) but I've only ever gotten young dogs. You want to get them used to being stroked and petted while eating then get to where you can move em around. If they growl (assuming puppies here) you just keep stroking so they realize nothing bad is going to happen. That's my opinion anyway. 

Young dogs might need to be broken of chasing and playing but since you have goats, especially if they still have their horns, once the goats get used to them they will take care of that themselves. I try to tire the dog out before introducing them to the goats. If you can find one, I do think a 3 or so month old that has been raised in a working environment by someone that knows what they're doing might be the best of both worlds but... yeah puppies have worked for me.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

In the setup you describe, coyotes are never likely to be an issue. They are going to be an issue for the chickens if anything. Any advantage gained by a LGD could be gained by any random mutt from the pound that barked a lot, smelled like a dog, and was chained up out back. 

Coyotes themselves make some of the best livestock guardians around. They live totally off of pests, no county tags to buy, no vet bills, self replenishing without having to put your extras on craigslist. You can kill them if they cross the line into harming livestock and nobody will bat an eye. If you get a good one that doesn't bother your livestock they will drive away harmful livestock predators. No liability if they kill a jogger, either. I love mine. They have many advantages.

I am a coyote trapper. Sometimes I get called out to trap coyotes where there are livestock guardian dogs. Sometimes predation started happening even though they had the LGDs. Sometimes the LGDs were added later. Predation always stops when target predators are removed from the equation. Sometimes, when they aren't, it just stops anyway, and might not resume for years. But I have seen, on numerous occasions livestock that had been damaged or killed by LGDs. But there are a lot of people with five acres and some goats that stay in a barn every night and some chickens that are locked in a coop every night, and they swear that their LGDs are doing an awesome job.Theseare the working parents of 95% of them. I also see the same setup without a LGD that never have an issue, even with rampant stock killing going on in the neighborhood.

Human activity does a lot. Does absolutely nothing to urban coyotes, but coyotes that have a family member offed every once in a while, whose mother showed fear of human scent when they were imprinting, they are very leery of man made structures with human activity going on around them. A dusk to dawn light, and any barking dog in a kennel that is remotely cognizant of surroundings is almost a death nail against any coyote issues on that small property. 

I talk often to colleagues. They see the same thing. Not uncommon for a trapper to get the landowner to pen the lgds, so they can set traps without catching it, the killing stops, and then resumes when the dog is unkenneled. People will spend $600 on a puppy from working parents, and if a trapper tries to charge them $50 it's like asking for a kidney, even when the trapper is solving the predation problem by asking them to put the $600 pup in the kennel. We hear, "oh, he is just playing with them, still a bit of puppy in him, our old one was the same way until he was about 3" why don't you have him anymore, "Oh, we had to have him put down because of his hips", Oh, O.K. set up traps, catch 18 *****, 11 possums, a barn cat, 4 foxes and one poor coyote that happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and they are good until the next time old shep gets hungry and eats a lamb.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

A lot of people think they need a LGD but their acreage is so small, it rarely works. LGD were bred to be independent on large tracks of land. If not contained, some will wonder to increase their area. Never get an adult dog. There is a reason they are rehoming it. And just because the breed is considered an LGD, it doesn't mean they automatically do the job especially if they are not familiar with the livestock you think they should protect. I raised Anatolians for about 10 years. My pups were born in the pasture with the goats. I never handled them except to give them their shots. My adults never left the pasture because they wouldn't leave their goats. LGD's are great when they are set up for success.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

then you have never met my LGD's. 
I never had to lock up my chickens in the coop at night.
we have a bear just across the field along the river. he stays down there. the neighbors one mile south of us picked up 7 wolves on their trail cam in their yard. we have no wolves on our property. In the past I caught 7 raccoons in 8 nights in the live trap. since I have the LGD's I have not seen a **** or a track near us.
coyotes howl, the dogs bark back, the coyotes take a safer route to the neighbor a half mile south of us.
I have nine acres and the dogs stay on the four acres that are not used as cropland.
If there is a bad LGD out there, it is the human's fault..
and furthermore, my dogs come in each afternoon for happy hour. they sit and wait their turn for Beggin' Strips.. are completely calm in the house.
......jiminwisc......


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## Ridgetop (Feb 11, 2019)

We bought our first livestock guardian dog to protect our rabbits and goats from neighborhood dogs running loose after 2 attacks. Our first dog was a Maremma x Shar Planinetz we got as a 12 week pup. At 6 months he "played away' 2 larger stray dogs from our property. At 8 months he and our Weimaraner ***** chased off a cougar. She was in the house and we was doing the defending until we came out with the gun to see what was going on. Our next LGDs were Pyrs because 35 years ago they were the dogs with the gentlest temperaments toward people and we had small kids coming to our house all the time. We also had a lot of 4-H meetings in our barn. Lost no more stock, but the Pyrs (probably their bloodline) were impossible to keep on the property. They set their perimeter outside our property and kept all predators and loose dogs out of there. All our LGDs were bought as pups and worked well.

5 Pyrs later our last one died of cancer. We thought we could avoid getting another Pyr because we did not want a dog roaming. We brought the sheep in at dusk and locked them in the barn. In the suburbs coyotes will hunt during the day as well as at night. The coyotes started taking sheep during the day. We decided to get another LGD. We switched to Anatolians because we wanted the dogs to stay with the flock not protect extra acreage. We bought a working 18 month old trained Anatolian from a well respected breeder in Texas. Erick keeps a lot of his puppies and trains them while he decides which ones to put in his breeding program. Rika is the best dog we have ever owned. Erick says he sold the wrong one! LOL We have since added 2 more Anatolians from the same bloodlines. We got them as puppies, one at 4 months, one at 10 weeks. They are all working beautifully, even the youngest who is just 5 months. At 3 months Angel tried to play with the young lambs resulting in one getting nipped and bloody. Our ewes are too sweet tempered to discipline the puppy, so we moved Angel in with the rams. They are docile too but taught Angel respect. Now she is good with all of them. It is better for the flock animals to discipline a rough puppy as long as they are not too brutal and hurt the puppy.

Each of our dogs have their own guarding style but they all work together. The puppy watches both older dogs and copies them. However, at 3-4 months she was the only dog guarding the rams and was very watchful. Our LGDs come in most evenings for family time too and are remarkably quiet and well behaved in the house.

Find a recommended breeder, not just in Craigslist. Find a breeder who will answer all your questions and help you with any problems. Our livestock guardian dogs are the reason we sleep at night.


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## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

Well I agree training makes the differance but I have one GP that's so submissive with humans that you'd think he's a complete baby and a useless guardian dog but he's absolutely dominant among the other dogs and _the _killer of predators on the farm. He's perfect... except that he's also the most infuriating animal alive if you're trying to keep him in a pasture that doesn't have good electric strung along the bottom of the fence. 

I think a lot of it is just a random combination of genes and it is possible to just get a "bad" dog.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 11, 2019)

dyrne said:


> Well I agree training makes the differance but I have one GP that's so submissive with humans that you'd think he's a complete baby and a useless guardian dog but he's absolutely dominant among the other dogs and _the _killer of predators on the farm. He's perfect... except that he's also the most infuriating animal alive if you're trying to keep him in a pasture that doesn't have good electric strung along the bottom of the fence.
> 
> I think a lot of it is just a random combination of genes and it is possible to just get a "bad" dog.


That is true. It is why it is necessary to get a dog from someone that knows his or her dogs, the bloodlines, temperaments, what they do, how they guard, etc. Our Pyrs all had sweet temperaments with people, and they were all escape artists and insisted on guarding the entire 100 acres behind us and several streets over! One ***** had to be rehomed because no matter what we did she would travel a mile away and not return home. We would get a call to come pick her up. Since LGDs are not worth the effort if they will not stick around to guard the animals, we rehomed her to a huge ranch. She was no good if we had to keep her kenneled or tied up! The Pyrs were all from the same bloodline owned by a Basque who used to take 12cdogs and 1000 sheep to the mountains on leased land every year. The dogs had to patrol larger territories to keep the flock safe since they were not on fenced pasture. I think that is one reason we had trouble keeping them inside fences. Our Anatolians stay with their animals. They are all from the same bloodline and breeder too. We knew what we were buying.

Some LGDs do have temperament problems and cannot be trained. Some of them are vicious as they get older or unpredictable. It pays to do your homework on breeders before you buy.


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