# Updated pics of Hermaphrodite Compared to Normal Doelings



## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Ok. At chores this evening I took a bunch of pictures of my hermaphrodite doelings and her normal female peers. And I even took some pictures of the tiny penis inside the hermies vulva...and normal doeling vulvas to compare it to. I'm not sure if I should post those last photos here....if you guys think it would be ok, I'll go ahead.

Ok.......

Hermaphrodite doeling first.

Head:










Sideview of vulva:










Back view of vulva:










Teats of the hermaphrodite(notice the tiny size and lack of any udder. I actually had to put the camera under her belly to even be able to *see* the teats).


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Next we have two normal Nubian doelings:


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Then two normal Lamancha doeling sequences.

Milky Way:



















And Almond Joy:


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## mamajohnson (Nov 27, 2002)

Thnx so much for posting the pics Emily. I would not have realized had I seen this goat that it was a hermaphrodite. That could be good for future reference.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

mamajohnson said:


> Thnx so much for posting the pics Emily. I would not have realized had I seen this goat that it was a hermaphrodite. That could be good for future reference.


Your very welcome. The most telling photos are the ones I took of the open vulvas showing the difference between the hermie and the others.....just not sure those would be acceptable here. I can pm them to you if you'd like.
My doelings thought I was NUTZ!


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## BlueHeronFarm (Feb 9, 2007)

Or else they thought you were looking for nutz. ha ha ha.


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## HomesteadBaker (Feb 8, 2006)

BlueHeronFarm said:


> Or else they thought you were looking for nutz. ha ha ha.


 :rotfl: 

Kitty


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## yarrow (Apr 27, 2004)

ozark_jewels said:


> Your very welcome. The most telling photos are the ones I took of the open vulvas showing the difference between the hermie and the others.....just not sure those would be acceptable here. I can pm them to you if you'd like.
> My doelings thought I was NUTZ!


------------------------------------------------------------
Emily, I'd be really interested in seeing the other set of photos too. It's amazing how much more *bucky* she looks now that she's older! thanks for sharing...
susie, mo ozarks


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

BlueHeronFarm said:


> Or else they thought you were looking for nutz. ha ha ha.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

yarrow said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Emily, I'd be really interested in seeing the other set of photos too. It's amazing how much more *bucky* she looks now that she's older! thanks for sharing...
> susie, mo ozarks


Ok Susie, I'll send them to you via pm.


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## HazyDay (Feb 20, 2007)

hey! emily can you send me some also??


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## collegeboundgal (Jul 17, 2005)

me 2!


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

I don't see why the other photos wouldn't be acceptable. If you're worried I'd ask the mods and maybe start a separate thread with a warning at the top.

Scientific pix are not porn/beastiality.


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## DQ (Aug 4, 2006)

m2.
I really don't think it would be offensive here. its just part of their anatomy. we should all be grown up enough to handle some goat body parts. key being..."should" though so its your call.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

hoofinitnorth said:


> Scientific pix are not porn/beastiality.


I'm well aware of that....just didn't want to offend anyone.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Ok, I guess I'll go ahead and roll with popular opinion and post the pics.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Normal doeling, Almond Joy.


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










Normal doeling, Milky Way.










Hermaphrodite goat.










I was taking the pictures with one hand and holding the goat with the other so please excuse the awkward angle.


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## PETSNEGGS (Oct 7, 2005)

Wow, I am amazed. Thanks for the lesson! Is this a common thing with goats? I was reading the other threads and got so confused. Is it known what causes this or is it just a fluke of nature? She can't breed and carry to term? IF she does carry and birth will she pass this on? Thank you again so much for a needed lesson.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

Goodness, I'm amazed too! Thanks for posting al these, it's something to be aware of...


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## yarrow (Apr 27, 2004)

WOW! You are butchering her/him? aren't you? Not to be gory, but if you do butcher her, would you take pics of her reproductive organs/ or lack there of? Just curious as to what you'll find in there!
susie


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## mamajohnson (Nov 27, 2002)

Wow! I would be curious on the inside plumbing too. 
I was also wondering how often this happens, is it purely genetic? 
Guess I need to research.


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

I think it happens if you cross two polled goats.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

PETSNEGGS said:


> Is this a common thing with goats? I was reading the other threads and got so confused. Is it known what causes this or is it just a fluke of nature? She can't breed and carry to term? IF she does carry and birth will she pass this on? Thank you again so much for a needed lesson.


It is not a common thing in goats in my experience. She is the first one I have ever had. I talked to a few long-time breeders who say that if your in it long enough, you'll sooner or later see everything and this is one of those things.
It is not genetic, it is a fluke. Both parents have had viable bucks and does before.
I don't think this one can breed, though I have *heard* of ones that can. Even if by some fluke, she does breed, I will butcher the offspring. Just don't think I want to experiment with that. I have no idea if they would be normal or not. But as I said, I really don't think she can breed. She has never shown any signs of buckiness or of heat. She acts just like a wether, interested in food and comfort only.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

hoofinitnorth said:


> I think it happens if you cross two polled goats.


There is supposed to be a slightly higher liklihood with a polled to polled breeding, but not much. It is being proven every day by breeders that the polled to polled breeding is not the thing to be feared that people thought it was for so long.
Both of her parents were horned, as was she.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

yarrow said:


> WOW! You are butchering her/him? aren't you? Not to be gory, but if you do butcher her, would you take pics of her reproductive organs/ or lack there of? Just curious as to what you'll find in there!
> susie


Yes, I think I will probably butcher her in the spring. I need her for a buck companion this winter. I will certainly plan on having an extra pair of hands around to take pictures of what we find in there. I'm curious too!


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## LOC (Sep 10, 2007)

Thanks for posting the pics. At first I didn't really see much of a difference until the normal doe pics were posted next to the others. *running out to check all my does*


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Bumping this since I just posted about Ruby.:sob:


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Wow, thanks for bumping this. I missed it back when you first posted it and its highly educational. I have never seen a hermie and would have had no clue what to look for.


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

Very interesting! How the vulva protudes abnormally. Thanks so much for the pics & info Emily!
I too would be facinated to see the internal organs after butchering.
Do they have uterus, ovaries?


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## Cheribelle (Jul 23, 2007)

Thanks! 
There is a "crazy goat lady" that goes to the local sale barn every week. She's always telling me about "morphadites" and how you can't breed polled to polled. 
Even though a friend of mine does just that..... 
And I had a polled buck and have kept daughters of his. So I have been wanting to know.


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

Did you ever examine her internal anatomy? If so Did you get picks or what did you find? I may be helping my sons ag teacher teach about goats and it would be nice to speak of someone who has had first hand knowledge about a hermie goat.


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## spiritrider (Nov 14, 2009)

Emily 
Thanks for bumping this. Very good!
spritrider


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Going by the head shot, I'd have thought it was a buck. Chances are it is genetically male that was feminized early in development. I've seen several human babies like this, working labor and delivery. Also possible it is genetically XXY. You can have a chromosome test done if you are interested enough to shell out the cash for it.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

myheaven said:


> Did you ever examine her internal anatomy? If so Did you get picks or what did you find? I may be helping my sons ag teacher teach about goats and it would be nice to speak of someone who has had first hand knowledge about a hermie goat.


The first hermaphrodite I sent to another home to a companion to a wether that had just lost his buddy.
Ruby, I had butchered because I did not want to butcher my baby, myself. I did take a tupperware container and I asked them to put all the offal in it and I'd drop back by later that day to get it. I wanted to save it for my dogs, plus I wanted to see what she looking like internally.

Very boring, actually. Where her cervix should have been was nothing. She had a dead end, no reproductive organs at all.

If I was to guess about the first hermie, I'd say she probably had internal testicles, because she showed many bucky traits.


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## Rockytopsis (Dec 29, 2007)

This was very informative, thanks for posting.
Nancy


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## Kshobbit (May 14, 2002)

Thank you for posting all the pictures. I have raised goats for years and only had one like that. I gave it to an old guy who was going to butcher her/him then bred her and had kids. Next time I will do the butchering.


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## CarolynRenee (Jan 30, 2008)

Thank you for the educational post! 

Not every day you get to see things like this & it's good to know.....I don't think I've seen pics in the goat books I have, not that I have that many, but if it weren't for you (and other's on this board), a lot of us would be lacking in the knowledge you have shared with us.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Is there any way this post can be made a sticky? It will soon be buried pages back and new people or those that haven't been on in a while will compleltely miss it and it is highly educational.


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## dustin biery (Oct 30, 2010)

Just thought I would give this thread a bump after it was brought up in another thread. This is good educational information!


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## Marta (Jan 7, 2009)

Thanks for posting the pictures! I bought a hermaphrodite doeling (not knowing) 2 years ago, and once I thought that's what I had, there were no pictures posted anywhere to confirm my suspicions! This is exactly what my doeling looked like.

Lynne


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Bumping up since we are speaking of hermaphrodites again.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

That would be funny if the hermaphrodite was named almond joy....


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## Sededl (Jan 14, 2011)

Cool Post Very Informative


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

Wow! I'm glad you decided to post the "questionable" pix. SO informative! I once had a doeling that I thought could very well be a hermaphrodite. Wish I would have had this info back then!


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## vpierce (Oct 2, 2011)

I was told I also had one. Isis has this bulb like thing at the opening of her private area. When she goes to the bathroom(number1) It goes around it. I would like to post some pictures of it and maybe someone could tell me what it is. She also walks like she has a pair. Her sister April walks like a normal doe. Interesting.


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

Thanks for bumping... very informative


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

vpierce said:


> I was told I also had one. Isis has this bulb like thing at the opening of her private area. When she goes to the bathroom(number1) It goes around it. I would like to post some pictures of it and maybe someone could tell me what it is. She also walks like she has a pair. Her sister April walks like a normal doe. Interesting.


go to www.photobucket.com and upload the photos you want to put on here. After they are uploaded click the picture you want hover over it and there will be like file, edit, resize, rotate etc. Click on share and then get link code. Go down to IMG for bulletin boards & forums. Copy the full size code it will start with then go to this forum and paste the code in your message. Thats how you put a photo on here. 


Thank you so much for posting this. And everyone that bumped it up. I am sure we will get one of these if we stay in goats just hope its not for a long time.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Bumping this, because I have discovered I have a hermie, and it was a pain to dig this out. Think we could sticky it?

Emily, I have a question: As a long time breeder, if you sold a doeling that was later found to be an hermaphrodite, how would you handle the situation?


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I'm not Emily, but if you sold the doe for a breeder/milker as I expect you did, then I would, at least, replace the animal with one of similar breeding. Or refund the money.


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## yarrow (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm also not Emily.. BUT.. if I were to sell a doeling to a show/milking home (not knowing she was a hermie).. I would either replace her or give them back their purchase price (what to do with her would be dependent on the situation.. if they wanted to keep her as a *pet*... I'd have no problems with that.. just send me back her papers... if they wanted to cull/eat her.. again fine.. but I'd want the papers also returned) I just wouldn't be comfortable replacing/refunding and then the doe possibly being sold with papers to someone else...

susie, mo ozarks


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## Kits&Kids (Feb 10, 2012)

My reputation as a breeder is more important than a few hundred $.


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## Kits&Kids (Feb 10, 2012)

Im sorry.That sounds kinda bad.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

I actually didn't sell her. I bought her...and she was the MOST expensive one I bought last year because of her outstanding lines.

I had been waffling about calling her breeder, as I had suspected she was a hermie for a little while now.... and I didn't have a contract.

Now it has confirmed...she is a hermie. So I plan to call her breeder on Monday. I just wanted to get an idea of what to expect or how I address the issue.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Mondo bummer, CaliannG. I'm so sorry. 

Do let us know how things go with the breeder, won't you?


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

I'll certainly let everyone know what happens. Since southerngurl and yarrow chimed in, and I know them well and respect them as breeders, at least I know what a *responsible* breeder should say. That Kit&Kids, who I don't know as well says the same thing is heartening also.

I know that if it were me, I'd refund the money or offer another doe/doeling of like lines. (I'd prefer another goat, personally, as the lines are stupendous.) But I wasn't sure what was considered common with larger herds or more prolific breeders. After all, I don't have a contract or anything, so I guess it would be easy to say, "Sorry, sold as is."

Which I would understand if it were a case of disease...never know if they picked it up later. But hermaphrodism is most certainly a genetic thing. Not the breeders fault, but also not caused by something *I* could have done.

~grinz~ I know lots about science, goat care, diseases, medications, etc., but very, very little about how show people and long term breeders handle things.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

CaliannG said:


> Bumping this, because I have discovered I have a hermie, and it was a pain to dig this out. Think we could sticky it?
> 
> Emily, I have a question: As a long time breeder, if you sold a doeling that was later found to be an hermaphrodite, how would you handle the situation?


Sorry, with kidding season and milking without a barn......not online much right now!!

If I sold a doeling who was later discovered to be unbreedable due to hermaphroditism or other physical abnormalities, I would replace said doeling free of charge. If that was not possible, I would refund what they had paid for her. Same if I sold a buckling who in good condition was found to be sterile. Neither has happened to me yet......But its always possible.

A doeling I sold as a bottle kid who wouldn't breed but was physically normal when checked by a vet? That is most likely management and I would not consider myself obligated to replace or refund. If they were reasonable, I'd likely offer to help them work something out to our mutual satisfaction.

As I have had two physically abnormal doelings born here in the past several years, I have become very aware of doelings who seem "different" at all in the vulva/udder areas. I check closely when born and again before a sale. I kept "Time Will Tell" this past kidding season out of a set of quads for the simple reason that her vulva tipped up quite a bit on the end and I wasn't comfortable selling her before assuring myself she would breed. She took on her first heat cycle and just kidded with beautiful buck and doe twins just after her first birthday, is also milking great. So Time has indeed told.:thumb:

Anyway, thats how I will handle the situation if it ever arises. If I sell a breeding stock animal, it better be able to breed(barring mismanagement on the part of the owner), or it will be replaced.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Hope things go well with the breeder. If you have had it confirmed, I would certainly contact the breeder. A responsible breeder would indeed replace said animal.


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## farmmaid (Jan 13, 2003)

Greatly appreciate your time to educate other goat breeders.......................


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## vpierce (Oct 2, 2011)

I think I have one. Isis has this little nub coming out of her vulva and when she pees she pees around it. She comes in heat every once every 3 months, acts Bucky looks Bucky. 

I was hoping to find someone else with the same problem. I thought I was the only person out there with this weird goad hanging around, and not understanding what I was talking about :shrug:. My vet has NEVER seen one before.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

vpiece, look also at my thread "Hermaphrodites Happen". I posted a description of Bamboo in there.

I WILL get pics up of Bamboo to show how she differs from my other doeling of near the same age. Unfortunately, it is still raining, my internet (satellite) is spotty, and it took me all day just to get the new pictures of Cypress uploaded today. ~mutter, grumble, groan~

I will get the Bamboo pics up in the next couple of days. Bamboo, though, has never gone into heat at all. However, hermies ARE individuals with different traits.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

There are also other physical abnormalities besides classic hermaphroditism that can cause a female of the species to be unbreedable. Most are not common, but they are out there too.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Thank you, Emily!

Oh, how I have MISSED you!


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## vpierce (Oct 2, 2011)

Well, I just wanted to let y'all know that Isis my hermaphrodite has enough girl parts to get pregnant. That bulb like thing at the opening of her vulva is an extra large clitoris. I was able to find it in one of my books, Not sure which one. It said if a goat has an extra large clitoris that means they are a hermaphrodite. Any how, she was with the buckling since I got him last July as a companion so he wouldn't be alone, thinking she couldn't get pregnant, and now she is almost ready to kid out. I haven't been outside yet to check on her this morning at 6.30 am. I just thought I would let y'all know that I guess its possible. I am not sure if I can post photos of it on photo bucket, because the last time I had pictures like that someone got offended and they got deleted. I can certainly try.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

You know it always interests me that so many people on these boards seem to get excited about polled goats. Around here most farmers immediately send any polled goats to slaughter (market) because it is indicative of hermaphrodite type issues. They go for like $10- $20 at the auction too. They are just considered substandard. Even baby billies are considered almost worthless if they are polled because people feel they will be sterile.
It is just interesting that the idea of polled goats seems popular in other areas of the nation. The first thing that caught my attention about your hermaphrodite goat images was the fact that it was polled. That would never have been kept in this area by farmers around here because they always feel that polled goats have sexual/gender issues of some sort.


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

mekasmom said:


> You know it always interests me that so many people on these boards seem to get excited about polled goats. Around here most farmers immediately send any polled goats to slaughter (market) because it is indicative of hermaphrodite type issues. They go for like $10- $20 at the auction too. They are just considered substandard. Even baby billies are considered almost worthless if they are polled because people feel they will be sterile.
> It is just interesting that the idea of polled goats seems popular in other areas of the nation. The first thing that caught my attention about your hermaphrodite goat images was the fact that it was polled. That would never have been kept in this area by farmers around here because they always feel that polled goats have sexual/gender issues of some sort.


 Doesn't appear any of the goats discussed in this thread are naturally polled. I know Emily stated her's weren't. She doesn't raise polled goats.

There is a small chance that a gene linked to hermaphroditism is carried along the polled gene in some lines. The study done was with one group of closely related goats of one breed. The first hand experience of numerous other breeders simply does not support the findings of that one study.
Polled, in some cases, has been claimed to increase productivity in goats. I don't necessarily believe it myself, but to each their own.
Polled certainly does not affect fertility negatively. At least it hasn't here. Had two polled does each deliver triplets this year (the one delivered triplets last year as well).
Our Polled Nubian buck, Rudy, who passed away at 6 1/2 years old produced at least 102 kids in those years. 48 of those kids were known to be polled. Only one potential hermaphrodite in all that time. A kid resulting when he broke out and bred his polled daughter. The doeling didn't live to see a month (smothered in a kid pile) and I never opened her up to be sure one way or the other. The doeling had an older disbudded half sister (same dam, disbudded sire) who had the same bulbous clitoris and has kidded twice...so I am not as positive about her hermie status as I once was.

Such a loss for your area. Although one would question, if polled is so bad and culled, how do they keep showing up? It is a dominant trait and requires at least one parent to be polled. If everyone around there immediately culled for it, there wouldn't be any around to produce polled kids. Where do you live?
50% less kids to disbud...quite a nice thing for me. 
So thankful Rudy has a polled grandson (born to a polled daughter) that I can retain and raise up for breeding purposes. Actually...we have a Polled 88% Boer buckling born to a polled Rudy granddaughter we are leaving intact as well to get some horns off the Boer side of the farm as well.

I might point out that after so many kids born (I suspect we are at close to 350-400 kids by now in the past decade+ we've been kidding out goats) we have finally had two or three hermaphrodites...Geisha never did settle. I sold her as a pet after trying to three years to get her bred. Her teats were almost none existent and she was not very feminine. We sold another doe as an open three year old the same year. Again very small teats. Not very feminine. Both were disbudded. From two different lines (shared only one buck in their pedigrees and there was no polled in their lineage that I know of).
This past year we had a disbudded doe born with two brothers. I am fairly sure what I see is a penis and not a simple enlarged clitoris like I originally hoped. She does not appear bred and her peermates (all pen bred to a fertile buck) are bred. Again, no polled anywhere in her lineage that I know of.

I saw a most interesting animal and so wish the batteries in my camera had worked. An Alpine "doe." At a year old, she had a vulva, but there was no denying the testosterone in her system! Just looking at her she was a buck through and through. The shape, the smell, everything but that little vulva and lack of a penis under her belly. Disbudded goat, not polled.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

I was thinking about this topic the other day while looking around online... I know some breeders are breeding polled to polled without having much of any issue at all. And then I stumbled upon this breed, which is bred to be hornless... I wonder what breeders of that breed have experienced regarding hermaphrodites in their herds?


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Cool goat! I wish I could get one. I'm still not convinced that my doe Spice isn't a hermie. She never settled even with a CIDR and the PG600. She never came into heat. Bucks weren't even interested in her. She mounts the other girls and even the doelings even though she is on the bottom of the pecking order. She constantly challenges me by stanging up an trying to head butt me and she was my bottle baby. She acts bucky. Breeder won't refund unless the vet proves she is a hermaphrodite. The vet said the DNA test is really expensive. So I'm stuck with a bucky girl who won't breed.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

mekasmom said:


> You know it always interests me that so many people on these boards seem to get excited about polled goats. Around here most farmers immediately send any polled goats to slaughter (market) because it is indicative of hermaphrodite type issues. They go for like $10- $20 at the auction too. They are just considered substandard. Even baby billies are considered almost worthless if they are polled because people feel they will be sterile.
> It is just interesting that the idea of polled goats seems popular in other areas of the nation. The first thing that caught my attention about your hermaphrodite goat images was the fact that it was polled. That would never have been kept in this area by farmers around here because they always feel that polled goats have sexual/gender issues of some sort.


No, this hermie was not polled and none of her relatives were polled.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

KrisD said:


> Breeder won't refund unless the vet proves she is a hermaphrodite. The vet said the DNA test is really expensive. So I'm stuck with a bucky girl who won't breed.


Can your vet do a probe check?? Thats what my vet did and it was certain. They can use a probe, my vet used her gloved finger.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

vpierce said:


> Well, I just wanted to let y'all know that Isis my hermaphrodite has enough girl parts to get pregnant. That bulb like thing at the opening of her vulva is an extra large clitoris. I was able to find it in one of my books, Not sure which one. It said if a goat has an extra large clitoris that means they are a hermaphrodite. Any how, she was with the buckling since I got him last July as a companion so he wouldn't be alone, thinking she couldn't get pregnant, and now she is almost ready to kid out. I haven't been outside yet to check on her this morning at 6.30 am. I just thought I would let y'all know that I guess its possible. I am not sure if I can post photos of it on photo bucket, because the last time I had pictures like that someone got offended and they got deleted. I can certainly try.


Hey, post pics of she and her kids when they come....


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

It is just interesting how different areas have different ideas about what is and isn't important when it comes to livestock.


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

I had a buck that was about 3 years old, and I looked over at him one day and was wondering what had happened to his testicles, below is what I found,


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

That actually is not unheard of bucks from very milky lines. Some bucks actually require milking during times of elevated hormones (rut) and some have even required mastectomies.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

Whhhhhhattttttt! Crazy!


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Gynecomastia, how embarrassing for him ! LOL


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## Blue Run Farm (Feb 14, 2011)

Wow! That is weird! I have heard that human men can also lactate, but never actually seen it. I wonder if he was milked if his milk would be normal goat milk? Talk about a dual purpose animal...

About the polled goats showing up where people don't like/breed polled, I wonder if there are some disbudded polled goats throwing those babies? My Snickers is polled and nobody ever told her she was "supposed" to have any fertility problems. We have bred her three times and she has kidded three times with no problems for us. This year she had quints and managed to stealth kid all five of them in a space of maybe a half hour while I was grabbing a quick nap from being up all night!


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