# dog tubes tied?



## JHinCA (Sep 20, 2003)

We have 2 almost 10 month old Anatolian sisters. One has had her first heat. They have an appointment to be spayed on Oct. 4. While I was looking up info on spay recovery time and care I found mention of tubal ligation for dogs instead of ovariaohysterectomy.

Has anyone her had their dogs tubes tied? What are the pros and cons?

Thanks.

Jean

Cross posted on guard animals forum


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

I know most vets won't even perform one. Part of the reason people have them spayed is to reduce the chance of cancer. If you're leaving all those pieces in there, the chance of cancer is still there. I am not sure why you'd leave her intact. If you're going to the trouble of getting her put under for surgery, you may as well get her spayed, in my opinion. Not only that, but if they are being used as LGD's, having females who do not cycle will keep unwanted males from coming around because of the smell. I'm not sure exactly what the pros of tying tubes are. We all know from human experiences that unwanted pregnancies can still happen with tube tying too. The only person I've ever heard of trying to have this done wanted the female's tubes tied because he felt it was more natural for the dogs, so they could breed like normal without getting pregnant, and the male could get "release"... But dogs aren't people, and that guy couldn't find anyone to actually tie the dog's tubes. Most of the vets felt like it was medically irresponsible, and didn't want to be the one whose name was attached to such a thing. Most vets also take issue with relating to dogs as people, and keeping a dog semi-intact so they can _enjoy_ "natural" sex just seems a bit weird to most.

I'm curious what your interests are regarding the tube tying. Have you found anything online anywhere that speaks about it as a good thing? I'd be interested in reading what other people have to say about it.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Spaying protects them from a uterine infection which is an emergency and serious health issue in older females. 

Curious though...why spay them so young? These are very slow maturing dogs and most of the breeders agree it's best to delay spaying until they are mature, around 2 years old. If you can wait, I would. If you feel you can't protect them against unwanted pregnancy though, then spaying now is probably better than pregnancy.


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## JHinCA (Sep 20, 2003)

My interest in tubes tied rather than spaying was because, as Barbados sheep says, they take so long to mature. With TT, they would still have their hormones which would be an advantage as they matured but we would not have to worry about pregnancy. Also TT seems like it might be less invasive surgery with possibly shorter recovery time.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

But they will still go into heat and attract strange male dogs. 
They can still get cancer, maybe that pyo issue, and such. 
I would not spay them at the same time. I would take one in, then the other a month later. 

I would say that mine recovered from spaying pretty fast. 
Either way they are being put under, their stomachs opened up so there is not much difference except losing your female parts. 

What if something happens and one of them has to be spayed due to issues then they have down time again, another vet bill, maybe meds and etc.


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## JHinCA (Sep 20, 2003)

Thai Blue--
We had thought that having them both done at once was better because they are still playful puppies and if both were convalescing there would not be the issue of one who was not recovering from surgery wanting to play rough with the under-the weather one. We still have our older dog to guard while they are
recovering.

What are your reasons for 1 at a time rather than both at once? How long a recovery time did your dog have?


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I was thinking you did not want them off their guard duty so that is why I suggested not doing them at the same time in case you are worrying about down time. 

My girls are indoor and were fine after a few days and totally back to normal in about a week. Mostly it is the first day and day after that they are a bit loopy from the anesthetic, they do not act like they are in a lot of pain or too tender to move around, go outside to the bathroom and stuff. Never had to wear cones or chew themselves. Only one cat ever removed her own stitches and that was ok since it had happened a week after surgery. 

I have male LGD both are neutered and they did not wear a cone, lick it a lot or chew themselves either. The vet swore I needed the stupid thing and the first boy almost took his own eye out trying to get it off. They are not the same age so they were neutered at different times, the one who had the surgery stayed in the buck pen for the first few days. Smelled bad but it worked  
But if you are not worried about a few days of restrictions and such then get them done at the same time, this way it is over and they recover at the same time, no extra trip to the vet.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

I have never seen where the benefit was greater than the risk, they can remove the uterus and leave the ovaries but then you still have all the ***** aggression and so on, so thats not a very good option either. Spaying at a young age can make them look lanky but they are not there to be show dogs they are there to work, plus a ***** with pups isnt a productive guardian as her priority gets shifted.

I did want to say as with any XXL breed I recommend having her stomach tacked to keep from torsion in case she ever bloats.


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## JHinCA (Sep 20, 2003)

Cannon Farms--Had not heard of having her stomach tacked. Can you tell me more about this?


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Its a common thing done with deep chested breeds, its no big deal when you have them open spaying them however not practical to do unless the dog has a history of bloat and not being spayed for pet dogs because of the exrta cost of a full surgery why it cost so much more Im not sure but vets have to eat too 
Normally it shouldnt cost much more as its only a few stiches that attach the stomach to the abdomen to keep it from flipping in the event of bloat. Its not 100% and can have complications of its own but for me its a worthwhile thing with giant breeds and something I highly reccomend.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

A lot of people with working and agility competition dogs on some of the dog forums have actually been arguing for altering the dogs at an older age. They think that the dogs develop a lot better and suffer less joint and other health problems from heavy work later on. There are also various other reasons to spay later and some studies showing increased aggression especially in females from early spay/neuter leading to some major organizations such as those training guide dogs to not spay until 6-8months. While I entirely agree with early spay/neuter under certain circumstances the evidence of increased health and mental problems was great enough I chose not to spay my akita until after 8months which ended up turning in to a bit over a year. With the other dog we were under contract to spay by 3months and one of the other increased risks from early spay has happened to her. She has urinary incontinence that we have to occasionally treat with meds for a few weeks when something triggers it. It's not guaranteed it's from spaying younger but it is proven to increase the risk of such problems. Personally if I had the cash I would have them tie tubes until the dog was older and then do a full spay since a full spay does reduce cancers and dominance or territorial behavior towards other dogs. Not having a ton of cash I just put up with 2 heat cycles and the effort of making sure she didn't roam and find an unaltered male.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

It's not just about "looking lanky". It's about allowing the skeletal growth to be completed properly.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

JHinCA said:


> Cannon Farms--Had not heard of having her stomach tacked. Can you tell me more about this?


it's done w/ hothouse breeds like danes. torsion isn't common in rustic breeds because it takes itself out of the gene pool. i would contact a breed club and see if torsion is even an issue.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

at 10 months old they shouldnt even gain the lanky look, thats more or less an occurrence if done before 6 months during the most heavy of growths at this point Ill stand firm on the fact there is a greater benefit and less risk to spay sooner than later. Studies have shown that even having one heat can put them at risk for cancer and other issues. 

Pops, any deep chested breed can be prone to bloat, though most that have true hardcore working dogs can take it as a natural process of elimination these dogs I believe hold some emotional value and no one wants to see their dog suffer with bloat, its one of those if they are in there why not kind of things. As breeders get more involved with the breeds as you know as a breeder the less secondary things like that will mean, it will be either how pretty or hopefully how well they work that is the top concern but more folks are just trying to make a buck off the breeds and could care less about anything other than that.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

in certain rustic breeds bloat is not an issue because it has already removed it self from the gene pool long ago. while it is common in certain large hot house breeds it is not so for rustic breeds within the same type. for example it is a mild to moderate issue in some show lines of sighthound, it is virtually nonexistant in coldblood greys & staghounds (less than 1 in 10,000). likewise i have not heard of it in pure working lines of dogo from argentina, but it does very rarely occur in the show only lines in europe and somewhat in the junk bred lines in the USA.
if it is a non issue in the breed then prophylactic gastropexy is a waste of money. like say in staghounds, sure one somewhere bloated but it would be a silly waste of money to prevent what is essentially a nonissue.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

JHinCA said:


> We have 2 almost 10 month old Anatolian sisters. One has had her first heat. They have an appointment to be spayed on Oct. 4. While I was looking up info on spay recovery time and care I found mention of tubal ligation for dogs instead of ovariaohysterectomy.


You want the oviohysterectomy. You don't want to ever take a chance on the girls having a pyometra. Spays do more than simply stop pregnancies. They protect against some other issues like a pyo or even cancer.


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## JHinCA (Sep 20, 2003)

Thanks for all the responses and different perspectives. You have been very helpful.


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## LoneStrChic23 (Jul 30, 2010)

I think any big dog should be given time to grow before altering...... I never altered any Dane boy I had until after a year old at the soonest.......That said, I would spay a girl sooner as long as it wasn't before 6 months old. I don't like heat cycles or the roaming males, I don't like dealing with the hormones.....Pyo is scary stuff......If it's "open" pyo you'll at least get a heads up something is off before it's too late.....If they get "closed" pyo, rarely do you see signs before it's too late.....The risk isn't worth it to me. 

As to bloat...a dear friend of mine has a theory that some share & some roll their eyes at..

She bred some dogs back in the late 70's....anything related to or from a particular ***** of hers always got bloat at one time or another.....some were saved, several died. Across the US another breeder was having these troubles too & some pedigree digging discovered this breeders stock was related to my friends animals......they had a 1/2 brother of my friend's *****. She eventually scrapped the whole breeding program, altered the dogs & went on with other lines for a while....During the early 90's she made friends at a show, complimenting an exhibitor on their dog. She asked about the breeding and low and behold it was kin to some of her old dogs & they too had some hefty loses to
bloat.

Due to this she speculates there may be a genectic link to bloat......here is an interesting link from someone with similar ideas:

http://www.santanagermanshepherds.com/publishedarticles/bloatarticle.htmlq

Interesting read. 

Though I dont know if it could ever be proven....

I know some people who are down right religious in following the rules to prevent bloat...And yet have their dogs bloat in the middle of the night in their crate with no warning... I know some who practically set themselves up for bloat & never have a problem, so it does make you wonder...Yes deep chested breeds are more prone to it, but I also wonder if some lines within a breed are at higher risk. We lost a cocker spaniel to bloat when I was younger & I shockingly met a YorkieX once in the vet waiting room who had just come out of surgery for bloat.... I thought I heard the owner wrong when I asked what happened to the little guy so I asked the tech....I had never seen a toy breed with bloat...

Either way, my vet only charges 1/2 price on for a gastropexy when they spay since they are in there anyways.....On males it's quite a bit more... But if you decide to spay it wouldn't hurt to ask about the pexy & if it's too pricey it won't be the end of the world if you don't have it done...


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