# Why not here



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

It is done here voluntarily. I used to get the produce, bread and bakery foods from 3 groceries and feed livestock. Now they each donate it to food banks.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

In the United States, 40 percent of all food that’s produced goes uneaten. In 2010, supermarkets and grocery stores in the US tossed out 43 billion pounds, or $46.7 billion worth of food.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

HD
Is secretly even worse than that. I think about all the yards are mown in the United States? all that grass thats wasted and never fed the cows sheep or even a rabbit. 
All the road shoulders and ditches that are mown and. the feed wasted. 
I find it pleasing in some of the Western states where they bale the grass along the highway .


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I find it pleaseing in some of the western states they nearly lock you up for Littering too.

Here in Michigan if they baled the hay along side the road they would not feed it to cattle. Probably just haul it off to a land fill some place.

Last week on trash day I picked up a wine bottle, 4 beer cans, and one beer bottle, one coke bottle, and 8 fast food drink cups, two fast food bags of trash and a ad from the Mejiers store.
And that is just last weeks pickings from 660 feet of our rod frontage.

 Al


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

There have been attempts to bale the grass on roadsides in Michigan. too much toxins from vhicle exhaust, etc. Same trouble at airports. sounds good, but not feasible. 

Most of the food that goes to waste can't feed the poor. What would they do with a bag of cucumbers? A head of lettuce?


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

haypoint said:


> Most of the food that goes to waste can't feed the poor. What would they do with a bag of cucumbers? A head of lettuce?


Feed a number of prisoners depending on the bag size. It would be a nice addition to the bread and water.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

nchobbyfarm said:


> Feed a number of prisoners depending on the bag size. It would be a nice addition to the bread and water.


Sorry, you are out of touch. Convicts are entitled to three well balanced meals every day. Federal Judges have seen to that. People are sent to prison as punishment, not to be punished.

Convicts do get plenty of low quality, expired foods already. 

I managed a prison garden for several years. Two gardens actually. One helped feed prisoners and one was donated to the community soup kitchen.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

haypoint said:


> Sorry, you are out of touch. Convicts are entitled to three well balanced meals every day. Federal Judges have seen to that. People are sent to prison as punishment, not to be punished.
> 
> Convicts do get plenty of low quality, expired foods already.
> 
> I managed a prison garden for several years. Two gardens actually. One helped feed prisoners and one was donated to the community soup kitchen.


I am aware that judges have made prison so soft that is not an effective deterrent for crimes any more.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

It’s not the judges. They do not determine what goes on inside.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

nchobbyfarm said:


> I am aware that judges have made prison so soft that is not an effective deterrent for crimes any more.


Perhaps. But the fact remains that the world passes you by as you chill surrounded by sociopaths like themselves.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> It’s not the judges. They do not determine what goes on inside.


Federal judges do ermine prison minimum standards. 4 ounces of meat twice a day, 8 ounces of milk per day, one hour of outside activity daily, etc.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

haypoint said:


> There have been attempts to bale the grass on roadsides in Michigan. too much toxins from vhicle exhaust, etc. Same trouble at airports. sounds good, but not feasible.
> 
> Most of the food that goes to waste can't feed the poor. What would they do with a bag of cucumbers? A head of lettuce?


make a salad.... Eat it!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

haypoint said:


> Sorry, you are out of touch. Convicts are entitled to three well balanced meals every day. Federal Judges have seen to that. People are sent to prison as punishment, not to be punished.
> 
> Convicts do get plenty of low quality, expired foods already.
> 
> I managed a prison garden for several years. Two gardens actually. One helped feed prisoners and one was donated to the community soup kitchen.


In Texas they raise food and livestock. My BIL used to cowboy for Huntsville and round up cattle. Then in the afternoon he would plow or mow. Do they do that there also? Serious question.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

It makes me sad how much food goes to waste. We live in a sue happy time that has made it to where stores and restaurants cannot "donate" their leftover food. That to me is just horrible. My mom told me how back in the early 90's when she worked burger king, whatever was left at the end of each night was brought to a homeless shelter. That is how it still should be.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Federal judges do ermine prison minimum standards. 4 ounces of meat twice a day, 8 ounces of milk per day, one hour of outside activity daily, etc.


But those minimum standards can be ground up and pressed into a square known as nutrition loaf
Now that to me sounds like cruel and unusual punishment .


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

You want to see Real Food Waste ? Walk into ANY All-U-Can-Eat joint (Excessive Consumption Heaven) and look at what's being chucked into the waste bins and the stuffed to capacity garbage dumpsters full of waste food ! Then 3 blocks away you see the slums were people are scratching by with nothing.... Quite a picture isn't it...


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Steve_S said:


> You want to see Real Food Waste ? Walk into ANY All-U-Can-Eat joint (Excessive Consumption Heaven) and look at what's being chucked into the waste bins and the stuffed to capacity garbage dumpsters full of waste food ! *Then 3 blocks away you see the slums were people are scratching by with nothing.... * Quite a picture isn't it...


I don't understand people sometimes. I do my best to not be a slumlord but too many tenents insist upon living in a pig sty. No shortage of fast food containers all over the yards and house when they move out. dog and cat poop all over the house... (Had one tenent kept her mini horse in the house! No she never cleaned up the poo!) Average cost of cleanup and damages runs right around four grand when they slip out in the middle of the night never to be heard from again.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> make a salad.... Eat it!


The poor are not that hungry. Plus they need the other ingredients. Just getting it distributed fast enough, beefore it spoils is a challenge.

I've marketed produce in the past. People just don't eat many vegetables. 

The old joke about the guy that had a bushel of Zucchini. He took an old chair out to the edge of the road set the basket full of Zucchini on the chair, with a sign "FREE". When he went back, the chair was gone and the Zucchini lay there.

Food starts to spoil as soon as its picked, some right away, some later. In the chain from field to table, much spoils. It is just what food does.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> But those minimum standards can be ground up and pressed into a square known as nutrition loaf
> Now that to me sounds like cruel and unusual punishment .


In the rare cases that convicts get nutraloaf, they get the equal nutrition. Generally it is prisoners that are dangerous, locked in Segregation and misuse the food trays, refuse to shove them back out the food slot. I think Fish squares, Mac and cheese and spinach, blended and baked looks the worst.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I think here they can feed that as the only food 
Nutra loaf Seems like it would get boring after a few years


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

AmericanStand said:


> HD
> Is secretly even worse than that. I think about all the yards are mown in the United States? all that grass thats wasted and never fed the cows sheep or even a rabbit.
> All the road shoulders and ditches that are mown and. the feed wasted.
> I find it pleasing in some of the Western states where they bale the grass along the highway .


Missouri used to bale the grass along the highway and give it away. I don't think they do that now. Yes i could use some extra hay each year. A lot of retailers selling hay didn't like that the state was giving away hay to farmers.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> In Texas they raise food and livestock. My BIL used to cowboy for Huntsville and round up cattle. Then in the afternoon he would plow or mow. Do they do that there also? Serious question.


At one time, Michigan's three prisons and several Mental Institutions grew most of their own food. These small scale agricultural units cannot compete with modern large scale agriculture and are mostly just faint memories. The voters forced the closure of mental institutions and threw the mentally ill into communities il prepared to care for them. 
Forcing prisoners to work fell out of favor. Plus, the cour, ts stopped sending the lest risky felons to prison. Getting a work crew of murderers to hoe carrots is fraught with problems. 

If you are still interested, I'll relate a true tale. 

I grew up near the 150 year old Michigan Reformatory. They farmed 160 acres of Grand River flood plain. They managed a dairy. Inside the prison, there was a cannery. They produced most of their food and exported food to Mental Institutions, too. Any excess vegetables or milk couldn't be sold to the public as it was unfair competition.

Since 85% of the cost to run a prison is security, wages, the cost to produce vegetables, was mostly staff to oversee the laborers. Cheaper to buy on the open market. 

The dairy is located 60 miles from a major agricultural university, MSU. They had access to the most productive bloodlines in the Holstein breed. With all the free labor, the cows were milked each 8 hours and bedded on ample stray like show cows. The prison had a herd average that put them in the top ten dairies in the nation. 

Production continued to soar. There was enough milk available to give each of the 1200 prisoners a twice daily 8 ounce glass of milk. But federal standards required only one serving. The business manager, constantly pressed to cut costs, had a solution. Butcher half of the dairy herd. Arrangements were made to send the cows to a federally inspected slaughter facility with instructions to portion every thing into 4 ounce portions, the federal minimum standard. The butcher offered to provide 4 ounce portions of baloney, double the quantity of beef expected. Since the standards don't specify, the baloney offer was quickly accepted. So, in exchange for half of a top producing dairy herd, the prisoners got baloney. 

But, with the barn half empty, producing half the milk as before, many production costs (utilities and security) didn't change. This drove the calculated cost of the milk to double what it once was. It now became cheaper to buy milk on the open market and close the dairy. 

When I worked at this prison, the cannery building was stripped out and a professional boxing ring installed, operated by the Recreation Department. The dairy barn was empty. The huge open hay loft was utilized as an indoor shooting range for the Guards. Prisoner idleness remains a problem. The counter argument is that the dairy barn served no purpose since none of these prisoners would get jobs in a dairy, making their new skills worthless.

Today, several prisons have gardens that provide labor for the prisoners on the Grounds Crew, when not mowing lawn or shoveling snow. But they are all less than an acre.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> I think here they can feed that as the only food
> Nutra loaf Seems like it would get boring after a few years


Depends. The food items from differing meals would taste different. Too much of a pain to blend a meal and bake it, compared to just flopping a hunk of meat, a scoop of veggie and a carb on a tray. Generally, a couple weeks of it and they are ready to behave.

Years ago, they addressed the act of not returning the food tray differently. A refusal brought 6 Guards, suited up with pads, helmets, boots and gloves, with a two handled Plexiglas shield. They'd rush the cell, shove the prisoner against his bed, take the tray out and exit. The swiftness of this was unpleasant. It became common knowledge among prisoners so it became very uncommon. But policies change, so nutraloaf becomes the tool of behavior modification.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It’s the only food served in some of the jails near here. 
I don’t know about The prisons.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

my uncle is a guard at a prison here in Oregon and he says at that particular prison,the inmates eat better than most "free" people.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

Also to add,they have their own Garden that the inmates take part in growing and harvesting


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

haypoint said:


> At one time, Michigan's three prisons and several Mental Institutions grew most of their own food. These small scale agricultural units cannot compete with modern large scale agriculture and are mostly just faint memories. The voters forced the closure of mental institutions and threw the mentally ill into communities il prepared to care for them.
> Forcing prisoners to work fell out of favor. Plus, the cour, ts stopped sending the lest risky felons to prison. Getting a work crew of murderers to hoe carrots is fraught with problems.
> 
> If you are still interested, I'll relate a true tale.
> ...


I have a lot of family that worked at prisons. They don't just grow food and beef they also teach diesel mechanics, welding and building trades. Other stuff too. The goal is to get them rehabbed and gainfully employed after they are let out. 

Those on death row don't get that chance of course.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mreynolds said:


> I have a lot of family that worked at prisons. They don't just grow food and beef they also teach diesel mechanics, welding and building trades. Other stuff too. The goal is to get them rehabbed and gainfully employed after they are let out.
> 
> Those on death row don't get that chance of course.


I worked with a fellow one time that had learned the trade (auto mechanic) while in prison. He did a good job, but was incredibly slow. Said when he was learning time wasn't an issue... Nobody was going any where.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> I have a lot of family that worked at prisons. They don't just grow food and beef they also teach diesel mechanics, welding and building trades. Other stuff too. The goal is to get them rehabbed and gainfully employed after they are let out.
> 
> Those on death row don't get that chance of course.


yes, my comments were focused on food production.
The prisons where i worked were mostly more dangerous prisoners and their activities more limited. There are programs for a GED or high school diploma, too. 
Thee was also a laundry that did the bedding for several prisons and several hospitals. Very modern and not suited to employing many. The washers automatically took the washed laundry and dumped it into a dryer. When dry, it emptied into a hopper. There were automatic sheet or blanket or towel folding machines.
There was a clothing factory that made inmate and officer clothing. We called it the Snowflake factory since no two garments were the same. 
In Ionia there was a office furniture factory, but the government was always under pressure to close it, since it unfairly undercut the commercial furniture companies. 
One prison camp cut firewood on state land to heat several other prison camps. 

Teaching a trade to felons presents a concern. Why should non-law breakers have to fund their trade skills that are provided free to felons? Since 2 out of three go back to prison, why waste the skills on a jail bird?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Oregon1986 said:


> Also to add,they have their own Garden that the inmates take part in growing and harvesting


In most Michigan prisons, the kitchen work is done by inmates, supervised by Guards, but directed by Food Stewards. Often these Stewards were cooks in the military or commercial kitchens. Needless to say their creative interests were stifled. At one prison, there was a small garden area near the kitchen's loading docks. It became a herb garden. All summer they had access to fresh herbs. Really made an improvement in the food and offered marketable culinary skills to the convicts.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

"Growing vegetables in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula is always a challenge, but the Straits Correctional Facility (KTF) in Kinross, Michigan has again broken production records set by previous years. In addition to the various vegetables grown for the prison population, donations were made to the local community.

In the Spring of 2003, the facility donated 38 flats of plants (vegetables and flowers) to the Kinross Charter Township Community Garden. The Raber Fire Department and Hospice of Chippewa County also received a number of flats of flowers. Brimley Schools received donations of 20 flats to brighten the areas around their school. When Straights Correctional Facility held a banquet honoring the group of area volunteers that provide support programs such as Alcoholics Anonymous, every volunteer received flower seeds or rooted flowers. The Sault Ste. Marie Salvation Army’s Soup Kitchen Program provides hot meals for the needy and received over 3,500 pounds of fresh vegetables from the facility. The Horticultural Organic Group directed by Special Programs Director Helen Cleary, donated their entire crop to this important local community food program.

This is a great example of the prison giving back to society. The facility’s other two gardens, produced a total of more than 12,000 pounds of vegetables. New this year was the expanded herb garden. The garden produced basil, dill, fennel, oregano, parsley, peppermint, savory, sage, sweet marjoram and thyme. Food Service Supervisor Steven Goetz remarked that the herbs produced are of a very high quality. All of the vegetables and herbs were used in the prison’s Food Service.

The sidewalks and entrances within the facility were graced with colorful flowers.









_Flower arrangements made by KTF prisoners from flowers grown at the prison. The flowers are often distributed to staff in the business office, mail room, personnel and offices throughout the facility._

Many bouquets were arranged by prisoners and delivered to staff in personnel, mail room, records office, business office and the secretary for the regional prison administrator"


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Prisons, mass killings, hunger, poverty, abortion, despots, war, slavery, we have a long way to go.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Prisons, mass killings, hunger, poverty, abortion, despots, war, slavery, we have a long way to go.


I hope we agree on the direction.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> I hope we agree on the direction.


Well, with you, I am not sure.

Are we racing to the bottom, or climbing out of the abyss?


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

One way to think about how food waste affects you is to imagine that every time leave the store with three bags of groceries you drop one in the parking lot and don't pick it up. People waste so much food in their own homes. 
This was a very interesting documentary on food waste.
https://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/episodes/wasted-the-story-of-food-waste


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> Well, with you, I am not sure.
> 
> Are we racing to the bottom, or climbing out of the abyss?


The last three years.... Climbing out of the abyss. Long ways out though. Poverty takes time, attitudes have to be changed as well as having opportunities available. We have huge numbers of good folks that have been "enslaved" by the government handout lifestyle. Our prisons reinforce many of those attitudes. We were losing many for a number of decades, maybe it's not too late to get back on track.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

emdeengee said:


> One way to think about how food waste affects you is to imagine that every time leave the store with three bags of groceries you drop one in the parking lot and don't pick it up. People waste so much food in their own homes.
> This was a very interesting documentary on food waste.
> https://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/episodes/wasted-the-story-of-food-waste


We waste very little food at our house. A little planning goes a long way in that regard.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> We waste very little food at our house. A little planning goes a long way in that regard.


We don't either. Leftover are ate until they are gone. I like leftovers. Very little gets thrown out here.

Lovey is doing (her specialty) a pot roast, and we will eat on it in variations for a a week.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> We don't either. Leftover are ate until they are gone. I like leftovers. Very little gets thrown out here.
> 
> Lovey is doing (her specialty) a pot roast, and we will eat on it in variations for a a week.


Yeppers, last weeks ham was finished several days ago, the bone found its way into this weeks pot of pinto beans. I doubt their will be any cornbread leftover!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I agree that when the typical family shops at the chain retail market and fills their cart with the waxy cardboard processed junk, that a lot of it does get tossed.
A homesteader/rural type tends to have mutts, cats, pigs, goats, etc that will gladly finish that pizza, chicken wings, cottage cheese and moldy french bread, and a compost pile if they won't.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> I agree that when the typical family shops at the chain retail market and fills their cart with the waxy cardboard processed junk, that a lot of it does get tossed.
> A homesteader/rural type tends to have mutts, cats, pigs, goats, etc that will gladly finish that pizza, chicken wings, cottage cheese and moldy french bread, and a compost pile if they won't.


That's where a little planning comes in. Eat the French bread before it molds. The pizza won't get passed breakfast at my house, chicken wings and cottage cheese go into tomorrow's casserole. Puppy gets any bones after I've squeezed everything but the smell off of them.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

haypoint said:


> yes, my comments were focused on food production.
> The prisons where i worked were mostly more dangerous prisoners and their activities more limited. There are programs for a GED or high school diploma, too.
> Thee was also a laundry that did the bedding for several prisons and several hospitals. Very modern and not suited to employing many. The washers automatically took the washed laundry and dumped it into a dryer. When dry, it emptied into a hopper. There were automatic sheet or blanket or towel folding machines.
> There was a clothing factory that made inmate and officer clothing. We called it the Snowflake factory since no two garments were the same.
> ...


Then why the concern is they are going back anyway? In the meantime they can stay busy, save the state some money and be too tired to get into fights.

But I have known a few ex cons that didn't go back and did just fine in those trades. Most of these trades I mentioned are learn on the job anyway. Sure you can go to school for them but most don't. Then there is the shortage of them now so there is that too.

I have a friend who is a diesel mechanic and can't read. His company got bought out by a large Corp and they let him go because of it. His phone rang off the wall the very next day and was employed in Monday. They let him go on Friday. Plus they have him 5 weeks severance pay plus 4 weeks vacation time when they let him go. Was really a win win for him.


Edited to add: they called him back a week later and begged him to come back. They would even hire a helper who could read the reports for him.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I know it happens, but it blows my mind how any adult in this country got through elementary school without learning to read!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I know it happens, but it blows my mind how any adult in this country got through elementary school without learning to read!


Same here but there are those that can't.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mreynolds said:


> Then why the concern is they are going back anyway? In the meantime they can stay busy, save the state some money and be too tired to get into fights.
> 
> But I have known a few ex cons that didn't go back and did just fine in those trades. Most of these trades I mentioned are learn on the job anyway. Sure you can go to school for them but most don't. Then there is the shortage of them now so there is that too.
> 
> ...


I sincerely hope he told them what they deserved to hear for an answer. 


Yvonne's hubby said:


> I know it happens, but it blows my mind how any adult in this country got through elementary school without learning to read!


It's hard for me to understand to, but I can. It happens for a variety of reasons, if not emotional, I think one of the primary physical reasons is dyslexia or vision problems. My mom taught special ed most of her life and I saw these difficulties firsthand. If they don't get a very special teacher at certain critical moments, their future is pretty much sealed. For the few years they DO stay in school, being humiliated and called dummies, they are just passed on like day old bread.
Most of them like Reynold's friend are far from stupid have their own special talents, along with their own special handicaps.
One of the finest manual machinists I ever knew probably didn't go past the 3rd grade. He couldn't read (it took a while before you realized it), could barely write (looked like a little kid's scrawl) but could make parts so intricate you would swear they had to be done on a CNC.
He was surly, socially crude most of his friends were fellow bikers and drunks, but deep down he had a heart of gold if you ever got to know him. I don't know much about his childhood, but I imagine it was rough. It wasn't ever a topic of conversation, if ya know what I mean. He made good money, spent it on beer, Harley's and women, but paid his own way and too proud to take charity. If you wanted to help him, you had to make it look like HE was doing YOU a favor.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> I sincerely hope he told them what they deserved to hear for an answer.
> 
> 
> It's hard for me to understand to, but I can. It happens for a variety of reasons, if not emotional, I think one of the primary physical reasons is dyslexia or vision problems. My mom taught special ed most of her life and I saw these difficulties firsthand. If they don't get a very special teacher at certain critical moments, their future is pretty much sealed. For the few years they DO stay in school, being humiliated and called dummies, they are just passed on like day old bread.
> ...


He did for sure tell them exactly what they needed to hear. He was certified in several areas. I asked him how that was possible and he said they read him the tests. He answered them. 

This guy is dyslexic. But he is as good as Rain Man with numbers. Never seen anyone spit out formulas and figures like he does. He's not dumb by any means. I tried to help him learn to read but it's above my pay grade. Takes a special person to work with kids like this.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

haypoint said:


> In most Michigan prisons, the kitchen work is done by inmates, supervised by Guards, but directed by Food Stewards. Often these Stewards were cooks in the military or commercial kitchens. Needless to say their creative interests were stifled. At one prison, there was a small garden area near the kitchen's loading docks. It became a herb garden. All summer they had access to fresh herbs. Really made an improvement in the food and offered marketable culinary skills to the convicts.


See I think that is great. If we don't try to "rehabilitate" these convicts and teach them life skills or a better way of life,they are going to get out and go back to what they know. Not many know but I have a brother who has been in and out of prison all of his adult life. Every time he gets out,he goes right back in. He never learns his lesson. I often wonder if he keeps doing that because he knows nothing else and maybe prison is where he feels most comfortable. I don't really know because i've chosen to distance myself,i'm the black sheep of the family.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mreynolds said:


> He did for sure tell them exactly what they needed to hear. He was certified in several areas. I asked him how that was possible and he said they read him the tests. He answered them.
> 
> This guy is dyslexic. But he is as good as Rain Man with numbers. Never seen anyone spit out formulas and figures like he does. He's not dumb by any means. I tried to help him learn to read but it's above my pay grade. Takes a special person to work with kids like this.


Fabulous!
He had an opportunity that rarely comes by more than once or twice in a lifetime, lol.
And you're right, it takes a special person to teach those kids. I think dyslexia runs in my wife's family, she and her sister were always called lazy and stupid and that emotional wall makes learning a harder obstacle.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Oregon1986 said:


> See I think that is great. If we don't try to "rehabilitate" these convicts and teach them life skills or a better way of life,they are going to get out and go back to what they know. Not many know but I have a brother who has been in and out of prison all of his adult life. Every time he gets out,he goes right back in. He never learns his lesson. I often wonder if he keeps doing that because he knows nothing else and maybe prison is where he feels most comfortable. I don't really know because i've chosen to distance myself,i'm the black sheep of the family.


Yes it is.
Nickel psychologist here, lol, but some get institutionalized. IOW, that the life they know and are comfortable with, it's "normal" to them. People on the outside don't understand because they've only seen their world and there are other worlds all around us that people live in and find "normal".


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

farmrbrown said:


> Yes it is.
> Nickel psychologist here, lol, but some get institutionalized. IOW, that the life they know and are comfortable with, it's "normal" to them. People on the outside don't understand because they've only seen their world and there are other worlds all around us that people live in and find "normal".


It makes sense


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> We waste very little food at our house. A little planning goes a long way in that regard.


We are the same. We check the fridge, freezer and garden to make sure we are rotating our "stock" and using up what needs to be used before it spoils, make up menus and of course grocery lists. However most people don't. A very sad fact of life.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

nchobbyfarm said:


> It is done here voluntarily. I used to get the produce, bread and bakery foods from 3 groceries and feed livestock. Now they each donate it to food banks.


Our stores it go's in a dumpster with locks so people can't steal it.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

I have to be careful with fresh produce so it doesn't spoil. Just me and I often overbuy. Then forget I have it until too late. Never buy a bag of potatoes, one or two at a time. If I know i have company coming a bag is a good deal. Some things I never buy unless I have company coming or it is something I can freeze well. Cranberries come to mind. Usually buy plenty to freeze until later. Sometimes have to throw out some spices and get fresh as they lose their flavor over time.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

whiterock said:


> I have to be careful with fresh produce so it doesn't spoil. Just me and I often overbuy. Then forget I have it until too late. Never buy a bag of potatoes, one or two at a time. If I know i have company coming a bag is a good deal. Some things I never buy unless I have company coming or it is something I can freeze well. Cranberries come to mind. Usually buy plenty to freeze until later. Sometimes have to throw out some spices and get fresh as they lose their flavor over time.


Cram berries and blueberries..... If I had one each in the freezer it would be a lifetime supply for me!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Oregon1986 said:


> See I think that is great. If we don't try to "rehabilitate" these convicts and teach them life skills or a better way of life,they are going to get out and go back to what they know. Not many know but I have a brother who has been in and out of prison all of his adult life. Every time he gets out,he goes right back in. He never learns his lesson. I often wonder if he keeps doing that because he knows nothing else and maybe prison is where he feels most comfortable. I don't really know because i've chosen to distance myself,i'm the black sheep of the family.


Your experience is typical. 
You and I and most others want to provide that extra help to get criminals that extra boost to get on track to a productive life. I've personally had thousands of "heart to heart" talks with felons, in an attempt to get them to "see the light" and change the direction of their life. 
But in truth, most of the advice I gave is the same stuff they have heard since they were 12 years old. Their replies were repeated over and over. Designed to make me believe they had seen the errors of their way and were now going to attempt a crime free life. Mostly just BS from another sociopath, telling me what I want to hear.

People don't commit crimes because they are poor. Most poor people don't commit crimes. People don't commit crimes because of where they grew up. Even the worst neighborhoods, the criminals are the minority. Give an education to a criminal and the crimes are just more sophisticated. Teach a trade and it gets used in a crime. Give a job and they have 8 hours of alibi. 65% to 75% of people that commit a felony, get caught committing another in under 3 years. 
As costly as prison is, it is still cheaper than the costs of a criminal on the loose in your community.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

haypoint said:


> Your experience is typical.
> You and I and most others want to provide that extra help to get criminals that extra boost to get on track to a productive life. I've personally had thousands of "heart to heart" talks with felons, in an attempt to get them to "see the light" and change the direction of their life.
> But in truth, most of the advice I gave is the same stuff they have heard since they were 12 years old. Their replies were repeated over and over. Designed to make me believe they had seen the errors of their way and were now going to attempt a crime free life. Mostly just BS from another sociopath, telling me what I want to hear.
> 
> ...


I don't doubt you, but it sure is disheartening


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

HDRider said:


> I don't doubt you, but it sure is disheartening


Disheartening? Imagine seeing a thousand prisoners every day for nearly three decades and unable to come up with a solution. Seeing parolees returned to prison time and time again, each time with a few more pages in their Pre Sentence Investigation folder, listing more crimes and additional victims.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> As costly as prison is, it is still cheaper than the costs of a criminal on the loose in your community.



Are you sure?

Does the guy that works a good job at the factory pays his bills and buys some marijuana that he smokes at home really cost society much ?
What about his buddy who drinks too much and drives home?
Even that guy that sells cigarettes one at a time without being taxed doesn’t really cost society much.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

haypoint said:


> Disheartening? Imagine seeing a thousand prisoners every day for nearly three decades and unable to come up with a solution. Seeing parolees returned to prison time and time again, each time with a few more pages in their Pre Sentence Investigation folder, listing more crimes and additional victims.


I cannot imagine what that does to a person.

Maybe putting them on a deserted island was the best way to deal with them. Let them come up with their own form of governing themselves.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> Does the guy that works good job at the factory bases bills and buyers some marijuana that he smokes at home really cost society much ?
> What about his buddy who drinks too much and drives home?
> Even that guy that sells cigarettes one at a time without being taxed doesn’t really cost society much.


Seriously?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Of course seriously.
There seems to be a lot of criminals in prison for something that really doesn’t bother society much.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> Of course seriously.
> There seems to be a lot of criminals in prison for something that really doesn’t bother society much.


I don't think those are the ones he was talking about. And, you knew that.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

HDRider said:


> I don't think those are the ones he was talking about. And, you knew that.


Who was he talking about then? Cause those are the guys that populate prisons


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Cause those are the guys that populate prisons


No, they really aren't.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> I cannot imagine what that does to a person.
> 
> Maybe putting them on a deserted island was the best way to deal with them. Let them come up with their own form of governing themselves.


Good way to end up with Australia!


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Good way to end up with Australia!


See, all's well that ends well


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> See, all's well that ends well


True, but we only have one continent left that basically deserted. Antarctica! Spose that would "cool their jets" a little to drop them off there!


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> True, but we only have one continent left that basically deserted. Antarctica! Spose that would "cool their jets" a little to drop them off there!


Hard to stab a guy wearing two polar bear coats


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> Hard to stab a guy wearing two polar bear coats


Do they even have polar bears down there? I was thinking penguins was the big game there?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Do they even have polar bears down there? I was thinking penguins was the big game there?


OK then, it is hard to stab a guy wearing 10 tuxedos


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I know it happens, but it blows my mind how any adult in this country got through elementary school without learning to read!


There are many ways it could happen.
Some kids are so severely learning disabled that, no matter what strategy we use to teach them, it just doesn’t click.

Some kids have horrible attendance and miss a huge amount of the foundational skills needed to read. 

Some kids are so affected by ADHD that they can’t focus long enough on reading to do it well. Hard to focus on reading when your brain is like a pinball machine. 

Some kids come to school significantly emotionally and/or psychologically damaged. That is a huge barrier to learning. 

The human brain is not hard wired to learn to read and write like it is to learn to walk and speak.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> There are many ways it could happen.
> Some kids are so severely learning disabled that, no matter what strategy we use to teach them, it just doesn’t click.
> 
> Some kids have horrible attendance and miss a huge amount of the foundational skills needed to read.
> ...


Why are they there?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

farmrbrown said:


> I sincerely hope he told them what they deserved to hear for an answer.
> 
> 
> It's hard for me to understand to, but I can. It happens for a variety of reasons, if not emotional, I think one of the primary physical reasons is dyslexia or vision problems. My mom taught special ed most of her life and I saw these difficulties firsthand. If they don't get a very special teacher at certain critical moments, their future is pretty much sealed. For the few years they DO stay in school, being humiliated and called dummies, they are just passed on like day old bread.
> ...


My oldest brother is like that. He can read just fine but can barely write or do math due to dysgraphia (learning disability in the area of writing) and dyscalculia (learning disability in the area of math). But he can look at a heating and cooling job and instantly know how to turn a piece of sheet metal into all the duct work he needs. The other guys are still measuring and calculating and he has the job done. It is truly amazing. I couldn’t do it if my life depended on it.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Why are they there?


I don’t want to misconstrue your question so can you clarify your point?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> I don’t want to misconstrue your question so can you clarify your point?


If they are so severely learning disabled they cannot be taught why are they there?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> If they are so severely learning disabled they cannot be taught why are they there?


Thank you for clarifying what you were asking.

There are students with such severe learning disabilities that they will not learn to read. Students with that severe LD are rare but they do exist. That does NOT mean they can’t be well educated functioning members of society. Just because one cannot read does not mean one cannot learn.

Last year, I got a student (5th grade) with that severe of a learning disability. Couldn’t get past CVC words (cat, big) in reading or writing. However, give her anything orally, and she did grade level work. Let her dictate her essays with Google voice typing and she could write. So, yeah, she couldn’t read the science text, for example, but, with the correct accommodations to work around her disability, she could and did learn the material. Did she not have the right to be there just because she couldn’t read or write?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Thank you for clarifying what you were asking.
> 
> There are students with such severe learning disabilities that they will not learn to read. Students with that severe LD are rare but they do exist. That does NOT mean they can’t be well educated functioning members of society. Just because one cannot read does not mean one cannot learn.
> 
> Last year, I got a student (5th grade) with that severe of a learning disability. Couldn’t get past CVC words (cat, big) in reading or writing. However, give her anything orally, and she did grade level work. Let her dictate her essays with Google voice typing and she could write. So, yeah, she couldn’t read the science text, for example, but, with the correct accommodations to work around her disability, she could and did learn the material. Did she not have the right to be there just because she couldn’t read or write?


She was in a class of normal performers?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> She was in a class of normal performers?


Yes, a general education 5th Grade with typically developing peers. Pulled out for an hour a day for special education support. 

I think you may be under the impression that children with learning disabilities are somehow less intelligent than children without learning disabilities. They are not. People with learning disabilities are every bit as intelligent as those without. If I have misunderstood you, then I beg your pardon.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Yes, a general education 5th Grade with typically developing peers. Pulled out for an hour a day for special education support.
> 
> I think you may be under the impression that children with learning disabilities are somehow less intelligent than children without learning disabilities. They are not. People with learning disabilities are every bit as intelligent as those without. If I have misunderstood you, then I beg your pardon.


You divide your attention with this one person, and the rest of the class? Or, is she occupying your time equally relative to the rest of the class?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

HDRider said:


> If they are so severely learning disabled they cannot be taught why are they there?


SLFarm will probably give her own answer, but I know some of that answer,
1) Not every one of those kids is so severely disabled they _*can't learn*_ but they need special teachers to help them learn, like my mom.
2) Unless they qualify for some kind of exemption I don't know about, I think ALL kids are required to attend school.

I've told this story before, but it was one of the small miracles my mom saw in one of her students in special ed.
He couldn't read at his grade level (I think he was in 3rd), he had terrible headaches, couldn't see the chalkboard even at the front of the class, but his eyesight had been checked as ok. These headaches and eye problems also caused him to act up and disrupt the class, like an ADHD kid.
Mom's not a PhD but she's pretty smart and had about 25-30 years experience at that time. She noticed this kid could sit thru a film or do work when she had the lights out and used one of those overhead projectors instead of the chalk board.
IOW she thought it had something to do with the room lighting which was standard fluorescent tubes.

Knowing the light were primarily red and blue wavelengths and yellow was the other primary color, she tried an experiment, letting him look thru a piece of yellow mylar when the lights were on.
Lo and behold, his headaches went away, he stopped misbehaving and could see from the back row. She had his parents get him yellow tinted glasses, like shooters use, and the very next year he was back in his regular class and on his way to doing well in school.

Now that in now way is a typical example or outcome, but it DOES show how a life can be turned from tragic to success with the simplest of solutions - IF someone cares enough to try anything.
My wife isn't stupid, but due to some cruel events in school she stopped trying and dropped out. Math was impossible for her. She couldn't figure fractions to save her life, which as all cooks know is kinda important in recipes.
I like to cook and I'm a math whiz. After we met, and I got tired of answering simple questions, I patiently taught her the whole concept of fractions, percentages and decimals, using pies and recipes.
She's now pretty good at math and her cooking improved immensely too!
A win-win!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> No, they really aren't.


Proof ?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Proof ?


Yes, I'd love to see yours.
Thanks for offering.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> You divide your attention with this one person, and the rest of the class? Or, is she occupying your time equally relative to the rest of the class?


I teach the resource room so that means I pull kids out, as per their needs for reading, writing and math support. They don’t stay with me for the whole day. That would be a different type of special education placement called a categorical placement. Everybody gets the time with me based on their needs. That’s how special education works. That’s the job.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

SLFarmMI said:


> I teach the resource room so that means I pull kids out, as per their needs for reading, writing and math support. They don’t stay with me for the whole day. That would be a different type of special education placement called a categorical placement. Everybody gets the time with me based on their needs. That’s how special education works. That’s the job.


Precisely.
IMO it's one of the hardest teaching jobs and I'm sure you know by now, it comes with great challenges and great rewards.
You will probably never know the magnitude of the effect that you have on those kids' lives but I have no doubt of its immense value.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

farmrbrown said:


> Precisely.
> IMO it's one of the hardest teaching jobs and I'm sure you know by now, it comes with great challenges and great rewards.
> You will probably never know the magnitude of the effect that you have on those kids' lives but I have no doubt of its immense value.


Thank you for your kind words. It has been a coo coo week and it’s only Tuesday!

Friday is Friday the 13th *and* a full moon! Pray for me!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Who was he talking about then? Cause those are the guys that populate prisons


I know its still early today, but so far that's the dumbest thing I've heard today. 

Hard for me to believe people actually believe that. I think I've covered the reality of a plea bargain. I've seen guys that were recently sent to prison for drunk driving. But it was their twelfth or fourteenth time and numerous serious accidents mixed in with several of them. One guy was driving drunk and ran off the road, killing his girlfriend. People don't go to prison for drunk driving, except in very exceptional cases involving serious injury or death.

I'm so sick of hearing about the working guy that smokes a bit of weed at home going to prison. That's a myth too. In any cases that look like that, most are habitually being busted for running a drug house. But the Prosecution can get a guilty plea for simple possession of a large quantity of drugs. But word on the street is he was popped for a little weed. 

In most stated only the worst go to prison. There are many alternatives. Going to AA or NA gets many out of jail time. Community service serve a good alternative, too. Worse cases get house arrest and an ankle tether. In some cases a 9 week prison boot camp serves as an alternative to prison sentences of a couple years.

A hundred years ago, a first time home invasion might result in some prison time. This captive population could be expected to work for free. Some did farm labor, some manufactured uniforms, blankets, mattresses, furniture and picked up trash along the roadsides. But most could be managed outside the prison walls. Today, prisons struggle to manage the plethora of violent criminals within the facility. Outside work crews are out of the question.

Sure there are some that work outside the prison, but they are few. I can think of one prisoner that was in a prison camp that was doing time for a non violent crime. He had been a funeral director. When the families wanted to donate funds to a University or Animal Shelter, in the name of their loved one, he'd handle that. But hundreds of times, he kept the money. Then it was discovered that when a baby died, he was charging for a casket and vault. He explained for babies, there isn't a grave site ceremony. Then he'd bury the body in a Styrofoam cooler. So, I guess there are some non violent prisoners.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Did she not have the right to be there just because she couldn’t read or write?


Right? Interesting question. 

50 years ago my ex BIL was struggling in school. His reading and writing skills were limited. He did fine with the day to day math needs one might face. He communicated the same as anyone. But by 7th grade, he was placed in Special Education Classes, with the learning impaired (back then it was called Retarted) He also took Physical Education, wood shop, metal shop and Mechanics.
Semester after semester, he tried. He became a skilled welder, carpenter and mechanic. Finally, the day of graduation arrived. With his cap and gown, he was presented his High School diploma. But when he returned to his seat, opened the padded card, his diploma, complete with his typed name, lacked the required signatures of the Principal and Superintendent. Sorry kid, no diploma for you.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

I don't know about now, but similar students used to be given a Certificate of Completion. They didn't meet state requirements for graduation, but they did complete the courses they were given satisfactorily.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

whiterock said:


> I don't know about now, but similar students used to be given a Certificate of Completion. They didn't meet state requirements for graduation, but they did complete the courses they were given satisfactorily.


and everyone is happy because they all got trophies?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> I know its still early today, but so far that's the dumbest thing I've heard today.
> 
> Hard for me to believe people actually believe that. I think I've covered the reality of a plea bargain. I've seen guys that were recently sent to prison for drunk driving. But it was their twelfth or fourteenth time and numerous serious accidents mixed in with several of them. One guy was driving drunk and ran off the road, killing his girlfriend. People don't go to prison for drunk driving, except in very exceptional cases involving serious injury or death.
> 
> ...


 Didn’t you used to be a prison guard? Any chance your veiw of things could be skewed cause of what type prison you worked at ?
Around here I know 3 guys that keep doing prison time for dui .
Never a accident never anyone hurt.
Well except for the cops that stop them. Weirdly enough most of the drunks in this area seem to have a habit of assaulting cops knees and feet with their faces .
And of course the weapons dealer that did some prison time.
Of course he was a licensed weapons dealer, mostly he dealt with the police but when his ex-wife started Dating a trooper he was soon he was soon in prison.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Wasn't a trophy. Just show something to prove they didn't drop out but aged out. Didn't hide anything. Didn't sugarcoat anything.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

From the Bop
Website 


Statistics based on prior month's data -- -- Last Updated: Saturday, 7 September 2019



*Offense* *# of Inmates* *% of Inmates*
Banking and Insurance, Counterfeit, Embezzlement 394 0.2%
Burglary, Larceny, Property Offenses 8,190 5.0%
Continuing Criminal Enterprise 333 0.2%
Courts or Corrections 714 0.4%
Drug Offenses 74,471 45.3%
Extortion, Fraud, Bribery 10,205 6.2%
Homicide, Aggravated Assault, and Kidnapping Offenses 5,324 3.2%
Immigration 10,313 6.3%
Miscellaneous 1,107 0.7%
National Security 52 0.0%
Robbery 5,746 3.5%
Sex Offenses 16,679 10.1%
Weapons, Explosives, Arson 31,024 18.9%
Other Inmate Statistics


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> From the Bop
> Website
> 
> 
> ...


You make a habit out of refusing to listen


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Wow, I'm surprised at the number of sex offenses and arson! That'd be a pure nut job...


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> From the Bop
> Website
> 
> 
> ...


I get that you don't think DUI should be illegal. There are some people that think sex with minors should be legal too. Why not murder or bank robbery being legal while we are at it?

Don't like the laws then change them.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

haypoint said:


> People don't go to prison for drunk driving, except in very exceptional cases involving serious injury or death.


Not prison but I know several people who have spent time in jail for driving drunk when there was no accident, and a few who have spent time in jail for possession without killing anyone although they were caught because of single car accidents. Got a nephew in jail now for heroin possession.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

haypoint said:


> and everyone is happy because they all got trophies?


A certificate of completion is in no way “everyone gets a trophy”. The state mandated graduation requirements are not appropriate for many students with special needs who may need a specialized curriculum. Determining whether a student works toward a diploma or a certificate of completion is not a decision that IEP teams take lightly as there are impacts on a student’s future depending on which is chosen.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I went through twelve years, got my diploma upon graduation. It's around here someplace I'm sure but in my fifty years after getting it not one single person has ever asked to see it! I really thought it was going to more of a thing.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> Not prison but I know several people who have spent time in jail for driving drunk when there was no accident, and a few who have spent time in jail for possession without killing anyone although they were caught because of single car accidents. Got a nephew in jail now for heroin possession.


Easy to make broad assumptions when we don't have all the facts. Drunk driving while license suspended? First time or third?To drunk to keep the car on the road, enough damage that the Cops got involved? Is that one of those non-violent victimless crimes that don't deserve jail time? Feel different when its a school bus instead of a ditch?

Would be enlightening if you could review nephew's pre-sentence investigation, arrest report and the transcripts of the trial. Might be different from the story you received. First time? Under 500 grams? Jail is normally just a few months. Clearly not a prison.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I went through twelve years, got my diploma upon graduation. It's around here someplace I'm sure but in my fifty years after getting it not one single person has ever asked to see it! I really thought it was going to more of a thing.


Me either. But numerous job applications asked about it and college credits, too. I guess it would be easy to check if I lied. Normally, lying on a job application is a fire-able offence. 

I have a friend that missed her senior year due to a pregnancy. She raised the child, got her GED and went on to earn several degrees. She helped organize our high school 40th reunion. I contacted the school's superintendent, explained the situation, listed her accomplishments and requested a high school diploma. He provided one and sent a congratulatory letter that I presented to her at the Reunion. It meant a lot to her.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> A certificate of completion is in no way “everyone gets a trophy”. The state mandated graduation requirements are not appropriate for many students with special needs who may need a specialized curriculum. Determining whether a student works toward a diploma or a certificate of completion is not a decision that IEP teams take lightly as there are impacts on a student’s future depending on which is chosen.


I think my response was harsh, since my BIL thought he was getting a diploma. There was never a discussion that he'd be getting a worthless unsigned piece of paper. Until he opened his certificate did it hit him that he wasn't graduating. It was not reflective of the accomplishments he had made nor a token of his efforts.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

haypoint said:


> I think my response was harsh, since my BIL thought he was getting a diploma. There was never a discussion that he'd be getting a worthless unsigned piece of paper. Until he opened his certificate did it hit him that he wasn't graduating. It was not reflective of the accomplishments he had made nor a token of his efforts.


Fortunately now, we know better so we do better. 

I don’t know about other districts but, in mine, our special education director has mandated that we start having the diploma vs certificate discussion with parents starting in the third grade as one of the factors in whether a student gets a diploma or a certificate is whether the kid takes the state test or the alternate state test both of which start in third grade.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mreynolds said:


> I get that you don't think DUI should be illegal. There are some people that think sex with minors should be legal too. Why not murder or bank robbery being legal while we are at it?
> 
> Don't like the laws then change them.


 I am trying to change those laws , but why did you bring that up here.
The statistics I quoted were a reply to Haypoints statement that it’s cheaper to have criminals in prisons than on the street.
I don’t think that applies to all criminals.
So I found a list of what people are in prison for so people could make up their own minds based on facts.


haypoint said: ↑
As costly as prison is, it is still cheaper than the costs of a criminal on the loose in your community.

Then I replied. 
Are you sure?

Does the guy that works a good job at the factory pays his bills and buys some marijuana that he smokes at home really cost society much ?
What about his buddy who drinks too much and drives home?
Even that guy that sells cigarettes one at a time without being taxed doesn’t really cost society much.

Last edit


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Drug Offenses 74,471 45.3%


Am I to understand that you are equating this percentage to include the guy with a job that smokes some weed when he gets home?

From my 27 years of on site experience an d a review of thousands of pre-sentence investigations and countless court transcripts, most people doing prison for drug charges had lengthy drug dealing criminal history. I don't think I need to explain that many, perhaps most, robberies and home invasions are to obtain money or salable items to buy drugs. These violent crimes show up on a different statistic. As mentioned before, often the actual felonies committed are plea bargained away. 

When Jack and John Manville cyanide poisoned three college students, one survived to testify. John was charged with the murders, but Jack was charged with simple possession. Both were drug dealing murders. John wasn't charged with a drug offence, so wouldn't show up there on your statistics. Jack didn't go to prison so he doesn't show up at all. 

When drug dealers Canter and Moore murdered Tobias, they weren't charged with drug dealing. They were charged with murder. When their case was overturned a decade later, due to a witness recanting her testimony, Canter and Moore weren't subsequently charged for their drug dealing. 

Seems the small time drug dealer doesn't get anyone's attention, while the big operations morph into turf wars, ruthless collection tactics and their customers are on the Cop's watch list already. While drug sales are the common thread, people forget how drug sales and violence go hand in hand. Given an opportunity to convict for murder or drug charges, actual packages of drugs is easy to get a conviction, while dealing with reluctant criminal witnesses problematic. So, all that shows up on the statistics is the drug charge.

It concerns me that the lack of understanding of dropped charges gives the false impression that mild mannered small time drug dealers are getting sent to prison. Under those wrong impressions, ruthless murderers would be turned loose as victim-less criminals.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I went through twelve years, got my diploma upon graduation. It's around here someplace I'm sure but in my fifty years after getting it not one single person has ever asked to see it! I really thought it was going to more of a thing.


I was at the post office today and the clerk behind the counter was complaining to another postal worker about their new hire. She had left mail on the roof of her Jeep an scattered a trail for 3 blocks down Main Street.
She came back giddy that she got her route finished so quickly.
“How was she even able to pass the exam?” asked the co worker.
The guy replied “she must have been in that ‘leave no child behind’program.”


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Am I to understand that you are equating this percentage to include the guy with a job that smokes some weed when he gets home?
> 
> From my 27 years of on site experience an d a review of thousands of pre-sentence investigations and countless court transcripts, most people doing prison for drug charges had lengthy drug dealing criminal history. I don't think I need to explain that many, perhaps most, robberies and home invasions are to obtain money or salable items to buy drugs. These violent crimes show up on a different statistic. As mentioned before, often the actual felonies committed are plea bargained away.
> 
> ...


 I gave a open list I didn’t make any judgement about it. 

“Am I to understand that you are equating this percentage to include the guy with a job that smokes some weed when he gets home“

Yes 
But look carefully at what you said you used the word” include”
Neither you nor I said “Every”

Earlier though you were all inclusive when you said 
“As costly as prison is it still cheaper than the cost of a criminal on the loose in your Community “

I have no doubt that there are some horrible dangerous and expensive criminals in prison .
But I know there are some very innocuous people in prison for minor offenses and crimes they didn’t even commit.

In a separate point you bring up pleading as if it only works to let criminals off
From what I’ve seen pleading is done so the prosecutors don’t have to do their job and mostly to put people in prison that shouldn’t be there. 
Prosecutors pile on a ton of offenses and point out to the victim then if they throw that much mud at them some of that is going to stick. 
And they may do 100 years for some stupid thing 
So the victim pleads down and takes a year or two and hope to get out in six months because they don’t have the money to hire a real lawyer and kick the prosecutor butt. 
It’s a game to a prosecutor and he’s thinking why would anybody plead to anything if they didn’t do it.
But for the victim it’s their life and in real life you don’t take a 1% chance of dying bet .Russian roulette just isn’t a popular game
When your actual life is on the line and not just a few dollars you play it safe in this case safe is the best thing you can plead to .


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Earlier though you were all inclusive when you said
> “As costly as prison is it still cheaper than the cost of a criminal on the loose in your Community “


I guess I should have emphasized the word criminal. Useless to release a criminal to society. But not everyone ready for parole is a criminal. Criminal is a mind set.

OK, I'm getting my broad brush out. Hold on. 
There are three groups of prisoners: A. Those with a criminal mentality. Everyone in society are their potential victims. B. Those that lacked socialization, were addicted to drugs, had few opportunities beyond a life of crime. C.Those that in a moment of weakness, a situation they were unprepared for, resulted in a crime. They are remorseful and are prepared to live their lives in a productive way.

The C. group may be a person that saw a car with the keys in it and without much thought stole it. It might be a guy that caught his wife in bed with his brother and in a fit of rage killed him. Might be a one time opportunity to haul 100 kelos of marijuana, but got caught. A wide range of crimes, some serious and violent. But since they are unlikely to re-offend, kick them out of prison. But give long probation instead of prison. Maybe tons of Community Service, too. Off the backs of the taxpayers.

Group A are going to terrorize what ever community they land in. They'll never contribute to society. Long prison sentences protect society, but at great cost. Lethal injection solves the problem. Could be serial murderers, but also third time purse snatchers and serial rapists. The key here is the obvious likelihood of a return to crime. 

Group B could turn away from crime if they had drug counseling, learned to read, had some job skills or behavioral training. This would be in prison and costly. But by not housing the incorrigible and those that are not a threat to society, there should be plenty of money for intensive programming.

The trick is in the sorting.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

The trick is in the sorting.

lol i can agree with that


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> The trick is in the sorting.
> 
> lol i can agree with that


Good. Maybe we can put that off-topic issue to bed, and go back to my original post.

Why can't excess food from fields, restaurants, and grocery stores find its way to the tables of those in need?

I'd submit that here in the USA, no one is starving, so it is a solution in search of a problem.

Maybe we should grind it all up and make some type of long shelf-life food bar and send it to Africa by the boat load.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Sounds like a great nonprofit startup idea to me. I'm not smart enough to help but any way to turn potential waste into useful food for the needy is an honorable endeavor.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

HDRider said:


> Why can't excess food from fields, restaurants, and grocery stores find its way to the tables of those in need?
> 
> I'd submit that here in the USA, no one is starving, so it is a solution in search of a problem.
> 
> Maybe we should grind it all up and make some type of long shelf-life food bar and send it to Africa by the boat load.


Silly boy! It's all about the money doncha' know.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I was admiring the field of broccoli one time that was literally on the border between United States and Mexico when the farmer pulled up and started to grill me with a lot of attitude on what I was doing there. 
After I explained that I was a farmer from Illinois and was standing there trying to understand what was going on in the field his whole attitude changed and he took great pride in explaining everything to me .
The crops looked ugly and odd. 
He explain to the field had already been harvested and that the buyers want ahead as close to 1 pound as possible. So they aimed to grow a pound and a half head So the field crews could cut a perfect 1 pound head
Of course plants aren’t all exactly alike so there were some 234 and even 5 pound heads out there with just one pound missing out of the middle .
It really didn’t work to try to get to 1 pound heads out of a 5 pound plan since the machinery the field hands were riding on moved at a steady pace and it would throw their timing off
It’s on I think he was worried about me stealing a head of broccoli when he pulled up but before he left he invited me to gather up all the broccoli I could carry. 
Sadly being in a truck without refrigeration and getting ready to change over to a rental car in a few minutes I had to turn him down but he invited me to come by the house where he will explain all of the different crops he raised.
Nice guy when he didn’t think you were stealing from him .


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> I was admiring the field of broccoli one time that was literally on the border between United States and Mexico when the farmer pulled up and started to grill me with a lot of attitude on what I was doing there.
> After I explained that I was a farmer from Illinois and was standing there trying to understand what was going on in the field his whole attitude changed and he took great pride in explaining everything to me .
> The crops looked ugly and odd.
> He explain to the field had already been harvested and that the buyers want ahead as close to 1 pound as possible. So they aimed to grow a pound and a half head So the field crews could cut a perfect 1 pound head
> ...


I thought an organization called "Second Harvest" did that, but it seems to have morphed into another food bank.

I did find this.
RANCHO SANTA FE — Are you an active senior willing to exchange time for productivity? Are you a vegetable or fruit farmer harvesting crops or a homeowner with a yard filled with fruit trees?

Do you love sharing a bright sunny day with friends while serving to sustain our ecosystem _and_ feed the hungry?

If you’ve answered yes to any of these questions, Senior Gleaners are ready and super excited for you to join their efforts in gleaning surplus produce to help feed those in need.

https://www.thecoastnews.com/senior-gleaners-gather-surplus-food-to-feed-the-hungry/​


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Michigan grows a lot of Asparagus and cucumbers.

The consumers want long thin asparagus. So there is no reason to harvest the short chubby asparagus. The laborers don't pick it and the cost of returning harvest equipment to pick the undesirable chubby asparagus. So it wastes in the field. 

Commercial cucumbers grow on short vine plants. A machine cuts the plants just under the ground's surface, hauls everything into the harvester, separates the cucumbers from the vine. Then it sorts sizes. 7 inch long or bigger goes back on the ground. Too big for making dill pickles. 

Gleaners would need to be right there, as they won't stay fresh out in the sun. Hauling baskets through the field, sorting out the over ripe cucumbers and those damaged by the harvester, is a lot of hand labor for a food many people don't eat.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

nchobbyfarm said:


> Sounds like a great nonprofit startup idea to me. I'm not smart enough to help but any way to turn potential waste into useful food for the needy is an honorable endeavor.


There actually is one like that. I saw it on wefunder or republic crowdfunder site. Iirc, folks can still invest in it too.

ETA: it is for profit so investors could make money off of it.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

IMHO, there is something wrong with making a profit on charity to me.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

nchobbyfarm said:


> IMHO, there is something wrong with making a profit on charity to me.


Many, if not most, executives at non-profits do quite well.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

nchobbyfarm said:


> IMHO, there is something wrong with making a profit on charity to me.


Because it's not a charity. It's a for profit business that intends to pay back it's shareholders. At least I think it was. I'll have to check it out again and see. I don't think they allow 501c3s in those crowdfunder sights.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

nchobbyfarm said:


> IMHO, there is something wrong with making a profit on charity to me.


But that just means they are able to do more with less donations.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Good. Maybe we can put that off-topic issue to bed, and go back to my original post.
> 
> Why can't excess food from fields, restaurants, and grocery stores find its way to the tables of those in need?
> 
> ...



Nice idea like all the ones above, but what would be be teaching people? I think we would just be back to square one of needing to feed more people who don't know how to feed themselves.


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## prinellie (Mar 16, 2016)

Y


haypoint said:


> There have been attempts to bale the grass on roadsides in Michigan. too much toxins from vhicle exhaust, etc. Same trouble at airports. sounds good, but not feasible.
> 
> Most of the food that goes to waste can't feed the poor. What would they do with a bag of cucumbers? A head of lettuce?


Yeah they want chips and beer....


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Ziptie said:


> Nice idea like all the ones above, but what would be be teaching people? I think we would just be back to square one of needing to feed more people who don't know how to feed themselves.


The world is full of good ideas, and bad people.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

There is a place in Indianapolis Indiana is called “gleaners food bank “
They pay for a lot of their help. A truck driver that shows up every day so that they can make planned routes really needs to be paid for his work a staff person that’s there every day needs to be paid for their work so they have a lot of employees that are paid all the way from well-paid executives to minimum wage labor


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

The way I understand it the salvation army is a charity technically a church and goodwill is a for profit organization 

They both do good work there’s just a difference in the way they are organized


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> The way I understand it the salvation army is a charity technically a church and goodwill is a for profit organization
> 
> They both do good work there’s just a difference in the way they are organized


 Goodwill, is an American nonprofit 501 org


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Something to keep in mind when discussing food waste is that we often use food as its own wrapper.

A few leaves on the outside of lettuce help keep the insides fresh and moist and absorb some of the beatings Of travel and keep the dirt off the inside too. 
Isn’t that a good trade for saving some plastic and paper ?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> The world is full of good ideas, and bad people.


I find it quite the reverse.... A lot of good people with bad ideas!


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I find it quite the reverse.... A lot of good people with bad ideas!


I think it all exists in equal measure


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I would disagree.
It isn't a balanced scale, which is why a segment of society tends to believe the US just isn't fair.
Success isn't a straight path. It comes from different directions using different means. It is equal opportunity but like diets, no one size fits all.
There are people with a good idea but without motivation.
Good ideas without funding.
Good ideas without the knowledge or capability to handle the details in bringing it to life.
Good ideas at the wrong time.
There are people who are bad idea zealots. Some might even be called activists.
Bad ideas backed by money.
Bad ideas from very smart people who realize failing is part of the long game of success.
Bad ideas for today that evolve into a better idea for tomorrow.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> I would disagree.
> It isn't a balanced scale, which is why a segment of society tends to believe the US just isn't fair.
> Success isn't a straight path. It comes from different directions using different means. It is equal opportunity but like diets, no one size fits all.
> There are people with a good idea but without motivation.
> ...


I still think all that stuff, balances each other


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

haypoint said:


> Easy to make broad assumptions when we don't have all the facts. Drunk driving while license suspended? First time or third?To drunk to keep the car on the road, enough damage that the Cops got involved? Is that one of those non-violent victimless crimes that don't deserve jail time? Feel different when its a school bus instead of a ditch?
> 
> Would be enlightening if you could review nephew's pre-sentence investigation, arrest report and the transcripts of the trial. Might be different from the story you received. First time? Under 500 grams? Jail is normally just a few months. Clearly not a prison.


I'm sure you would like to hear the full story, but I'm not posting it. I agree that jail isn't prison. But you are adding quantifiers to your original statement.
People under the influence do not belong on the road. Period. End of discussion.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Danaus29 said:


> People under the influence do not belong on the road. Period. End of discussion.


 Why not ? Some are better drivers under the influence than others are on their best day. 

Having some alcohol in your system does not automatically Totally degrade your ability. 

Moreover everyone has some alcohol in their system , should no one be allowed to drive?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Why not ?


Everyone knows why not.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

No not really they simply parrot stupid propaganda
I’d like people to think a minute and give real answers.

I absolutely hate stupid rules and laws with out a base in legitimate criteria. 

Pass along that require certain performance criteria before and during driving I’d be all for it. 
Pass laws that says anyone that had Cheeto‘s this morning can’t drive I think it’s a stupid law.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> No not really they simply parrot stupid propaganda
> I’d like people to think a minute and give real answers.
> 
> I absolutely hate stupid rules and laws with out a base in legitimate criteria.
> ...


Don't be giving the meddlers any bad ideas! They get my Cheetos when they pry them out of my cold dead hands!!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

AmericanStand said:


> I absolutely hate stupid rules and laws with out a base in legitimate criteria.


A pig is a racehorse designed by committee.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> A pig is a racehorse designed by committee.


I thought that was a camel


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Where my brother lives the Native AMerican tribe was gathering up all of the food at the restaurants and setting out an all you can eat buffet for $1 per person. The down side was that the meal was really late, but folks came anyways

Out where I live the grocery stores and private citizens donate to the food pantrys and get to take it off of their taxes because it is charity. I donate myself when my garden produces a bumper crop of something that does not do well if it is preserved. The food pantry is in a big room that is loaned out for free, most of the workers are volunteer, and if the food pantry runs low the request for assistance is given to the local churches so that they can say that the food pantry is in need of a donation of jello, or tuna, or whatever. And this does work

If you have no comparable program near you, perhaps you can start one if you would like to see it done??


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Thank you @Terri for bringing us back on topic.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Everyone knows why not.


Yep, it's coz the meddlers are afraid. Mostly they are afraid someon else is going to enjoy life.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> I thought that was a camel


It is a regional thing.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Why not ? Some are better drivers under the influence than others are on their best day.
> 
> Having some alcohol in your system does not automatically Totally degrade your ability.
> 
> Moreover everyone has some alcohol in their system , should no one be allowed to drive?


This is why:
https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving 

Where is your proof that everyone has alcohol in their system?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yep, it's coz the meddlers are afraid. Mostly they are afraid someon else is going to enjoy life.


The thousands of people every year who are killed by impaired drivers didn't get a chance to enjoy their lives.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Danaus29 said:


> This is why:
> https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving
> 
> Where is your proof that everyone has alcohol in their system?


I don’t understand how that article addresses my point at all.
I have conceded the point that alcohol can impaired driving that’s not relevant lots of things inpair driving there’s no law that says you can’t drive after an argument with your wife or getting a stubbed tor or when the day is too hot. 
To require a certain performance standard before driving would be an excellent idea. But until that time comes it’s not right to ruin peoples lives on something they haven’t done but might do in the future. 
The United States Constitution does not in numerate a right to safety. 
Thank God


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Danaus29 said:


> The thousands of people every year who are killed by impaired drivers didn't get a chance to enjoy their lives.


And what about the others killed by sober drivers? (Actually a lot more) Are they any less dead because it was someone playing on a cellphone?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

You asked why people who are under the influence shouldn't drive. The article pointed out why people who are under the influence shouldn't drive.

Good point about distracted drivers. Unfortunately the distracted driving is just a momentary slip while being intoxicated lasts the whole length of your trip. There are many people who should not have a license and I would have no problem with everyone having to retake a test, either written or road, before getting their license renewed each time.

Driving is not a right, therefore it can be regulated. People asked for laws prohibiting impaired drivers to be put in place. 



AmericanStand said:


> Moreover everyone has some alcohol in their system ,


The above is what I was asking for proof of. I couldn't find anything about normal alcohol levels in a person who has not been drinking.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> And what about the others killed by sober drivers? (Actually a lot more) Are they any less dead because it was someone playing on a cellphone?


Two wrongs do not make a right.

Are you denying that a high alcohol content makes a driver less safe?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> Two wrongs do not make a right.
> 
> Are you denying that a high alcohol content makes a driver less safe?


It can, but it doesn't always. A lot of people get very careful with their driving because they know their reaction time is not as quick. Puts me in mind of the guy driving home late one night. Cops watch him ease up to a stop sign, turn signal on. Stops, looks both ways and carefully proceeds to make his turn... Perfectly! Cop is out cruising no particular place to be so he follows the guy. After thirty minutes or so following this guy whose driving is perfect he tells his partner "I'm going to pull this guy over and compliment him on his perfect driving" flashes his blue lights on, the guy pulls over, rolls his window down waiting to find out why he was stopped. Cop gets to his window and tells him what a good and careful driver he is. Guy looks up, smiles at the cop and says "well thank you officer but a guy really needs to be careful driving when he is as drunk as I am!".


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> It can, but it doesn't always. A lot of people get very careful with their driving because they know their reaction time is not as quick. Puts me in mind of the guy driving home late one night. Cops watch him ease up to a stop sign, turn signal on. Stops, looks both ways and carefully proceeds to make his turn... Perfectly! Cop is out cruising no particular place to be so he follows the guy. After thirty minutes or so following this guy whose driving is perfect he tells his partner "I'm going to pull this guy over and compliment him on his perfect driving" flashes his blue lights on, the guy pulls over, rolls his window down waiting to find out why he was stopped. Cop gets to his window and tells him what a good and careful driver he is. Guy looks up, smiles at the cop and says "well thank you officer but a guy really needs to be careful driving when he is as drunk as I am!".


Let's just hope he is not tasked with a challenging maneuver while out on his libated drive. We already know the drink loosened his lips


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Well I'll just put my 2 cents in. I lost a very good friend to a drunk driver. My friend was on his way home after work, he had a pregnant wife and a young child. The driver had a record of driving impaired, including other accidents with injuries. IMHO he should have been put away for life or put down permanently, instead he got ten years in prison, up for parole of course after minimal time served.

I have absolutely no patience with drinking and driving.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> Let's just hope he is not tasked with a challenging maneuver while out on his libated drive. We already know the drink loosened his lips


Yep, if he were to be confronted by one of them sober soccer moms busy texting......


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yep, if he were to be confronted by one of them sober soccer moms busy texting......


They could both wind up dead.

Believe me, as a bike rider I know the dangers of a texter. I prefer, slightly, a drunk.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> They could both wind up dead.
> 
> Believe me, as a bike rider I know the dangers of a texter. I prefer, slightly, a drunk.


I always preferred to be slightly drunk when riding my bike too!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

no really said:


> Well I'll just put my 2 cents in. I lost a very good friend to a drunk driver. My friend was on his way home after work, he had a pregnant wife and a young child. The driver had a record of driving impaired, including other accidents with injuries. IMHO he should have been put away for life or put down permanently, instead he got ten years in prison, up for parole of course after minimal time served.
> 
> I have absolutely no patience with drinking and driving.


I have no objection to someone being locked up for a good long time because they killed someone with their automobile.
I have a huge objection to someone being locked up because they MIGHT hurt someone with their automobile .


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Danaus29 said:


> The above is what I was asking for proof of. I couldn't find anything about normal alcohol levels in a person who has not been drinking.


Sorry I can’t help you. It comes from a conversation I had with a friend of mine that works in the laboratory where we were discussing the fact that they can now detect certain substances substances at the atomic level. 
We were discussing normal levels of lead arsenic etc. in the system when she pointed out that everybody always has some alcohol in their system it’s just most laboratories are not equipped to detect it at normal levels.


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## hardrock (Jun 8, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> fact that they can now detect certain substances substances at the atomic level.


There seems to be a little of everything in all things... as testing improves.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> I have no objection to someone being locked up for a good long time because they killed someone with their automobile.
> I have a huge objection to someone being locked up because they MIGHT hurt someone with their automobile .


I'm old enough to remember when the actual crime had to be committed prior to anyone being punished. I know, I know,I was still chasing dinosaurs out the garden, but those days seemed so much simpler!


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

So your proposal that everyone has some alcohol in their system at all times is just hearsay. According to all the sites I looked at a normal BAC test reads 0 if a person has not been drinking.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Danaus29 said:


> So your proposal that everyone has some alcohol in their system at all times is just hearsay. According to all the sites I looked at a normal BAC test reads 0 if a person has not been drinking.


Really ? Does it read 0. ? Or does it read .00000001?


A BAC of .25 % is usually enough to kill you but it is a BAC of 0% and a BAC of .0025 or .00 or .0 or 0. 
It makes a difference what you use to test and how it reads out. 
Alcohol is a product of fermentation so when that little bit of dinner in between your teeth fermented how much alcohol does it put it in your system?

My point has never been about the absolute volume of alcohol inside of you it is about the fact that alcohol impairment or not lots of things lead to poor driving. And we don’t regulate them.
If we treated driving with the seriousness that we treat flying our roads would be a far safer place


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Does what read? What specific piece of testing equipment are you referring to?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> ................
> .
> If we treated driving with the seriousness that we treat flying our roads would be a far safer place


On this I agree 100%


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

AmericanStand said:


> Really ? Does it read 0. ? Or does it read .00000001?





GTX63 said:


> Does what read? What specific piece of testing equipment are you referring to?


whos post are you replying to or questioning ?
I was questioning the equipment referenced here. 


Danaus29 said:


> According to all the sites I looked at a normal BAC test reads 0 if a person has not been drinking.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

BAC readers that are used to determine intoxication are not sensitive enough to detect levels below 0.00%, but you know that. You just want to argue that point. Brush your teeth or at least rinse your mouth after eating and your dinner won't stay there long enough to ferment.

I totally agree that people need to take driving much more seriously than many do. I don't believe there are enough traffic cops to stop morons from being morons behind the wheel and 75% on the test should not merit a passing grade. But too, you wouldn't believe the numbers of traffic violations I have seen committed by police officers.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol I thought it was well known that cops are among the most danger drivers .
Yet there is no MAC D Except at McDonald’s


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I have some of their poor driving on video. Like the one that in heavy rain and after sunset had no lights on and didn't use a turn signal. Cops are a rare sight on the roads here. Sure you see them in parking lots or in the median on the highway but rarely driving around. After all, they might have to stop a driver that's worse than them.


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