# thoughts???



## Cancer_survivor (Aug 7, 2012)

Let's see if I was able to post the picture


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## used2bcool13 (Sep 24, 2007)

I think it may be a little easier on you if the gardens and small livestock were a little closer to the house. What are your predators in your area?

I know I watered more and picked more often when the garden was near by. I can't really tell how big this is - it seems far away, may not be, lol...


Anybody else?


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## Cancer_survivor (Aug 7, 2012)

This is a 5 acre tract. The only other spot that is close to the house is sugar sand. Where the orchard plans are....well it goes downhill.


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## Cancer_survivor (Aug 7, 2012)

This is the ground etc


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## Cancer_survivor (Aug 7, 2012)

The predators that we have seen in the last 11 years. .. wild hogs...big birds...banana spiders. ...squirrels. ...rabbits.....domestic dogs. Also attached is view from back door in relationship to the garage.


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## Cancer_survivor (Aug 7, 2012)

Yeah that's a junk camper frame sitting there. My DH has 'plans' for it


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

If you don't need the garage for storage or cars, you could consider using it as a "barn" for the livestock. I know I like having my animals closer to the house so I can hear if there's anything going on out there at night.


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## Cancer_survivor (Aug 7, 2012)

That would be so NICE. ...BUT we have race cars. My DH and DD races. Their cars are in the garage being worked on...or he is working on side work out there. That is his domain. I'm not allowed to touch it.....well I help him work on the cars...but I don't store anything out there at all. That is his only area he gets  I get the rest of the land and all the house. His garage is his pride and joy.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

What are your goals with the garden and the animals? 6 eggs a day and a gallon of milk plus surplus males(chickens goats) to eat....plus rabbits. Plenty for my family of 5.
If I had wild hogs I'd set traps and never "feed" my pork again.....

Are you keeping the chickens fenced in? if you do...you could make a chicken tractor and move them around for forage and putt into sturdier shelter at night.

Fence in your garden and the animals with good sturdy fencing so you dont have "accidents"....

Use the manure to rectify the sand issues....

I would caution not to go too big too fast especially with health issues.....2 dairy goats and 10 chickens...a trio of rabbits. About 30 min of work morning and night....if you are picky....20 minutes once you get a good routine.

Save some money for canning jars.....you'll need them to store what you grow!


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## Cancer_survivor (Aug 7, 2012)

mpillow said:


> What are your goals with the garden and the animals? 6 eggs a day and a gallon of milk plus surplus males(chickens goats) to eat....plus rabbits. Plenty for my family of 5.
> If I had wild hogs I'd set traps and never "feed" my pork again.....
> 
> Are you keeping the chickens fenced in? if you do...you could make a chicken tractor and move them around for forage and putt into sturdier shelter at night.
> ...



Good news is I have canning jars out the Ying yang 

The plan with the 3 area garden is to rotate the rabbits chickens and garden...one season will be rabbits.....Then chickens then garden. So all 3 areas will be able to contain the animals and keep predators out. I'm only wanting 5 chickens. 5 to 6 rabbits....1 pig. And a couple of goats. 

I'm wanting it to be simple. Especially with my health problems. That is why so much room for the pig....and so much room for a couple goats. More than necessary but I think it will be less upkeep than keeping them confined to a smaller area.

this project will be done in phases. That's why I drew this up....to get advice before I started.....to see if I have any major mistakes in my plan. Over the last 11 years we have done a lot of work to the property to get it fenced in and we got a bunch of trees gone. 

This project will be done slowly to make sure i can handle the extra upkeep and work doing this.

thank you for the input and advice!!! I'm not wanting to make an expensive or time consuming mistake


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

How would you contain the rabbits? They will dig out under or create tunnels out under a normal garden fence.


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## Cancer_survivor (Aug 7, 2012)

I was going to put each garden fence 6" in the ground. How far are they going to dig?


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## Sunbee (Sep 30, 2008)

Really far. These are European rabbits: their wild habitat is underground warrens. Ever read Watership Down? The descriptions of the warrens are fairly accurate. Now if you put your fence 6' in the ground, you might be okay. 6" isn't deep enough for a burrow to kindle in, in a rabbit's opinion.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

We have a 6 foot block wall with a 4ft foundation. We had a doe tunnel under that, under a 20ft wide road and come up in the yard across the street. They go down where it stays cool which around here is deep.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

My rabbits are sort of caged...with access to my "separating barn" for....mother goat and babies in Spring....buck in late summer/fall....they eat hay with the goats! The cages are attached to the outside of the "barn" and have their own metal roofing.

My free ranged chickens are under the rabbit cages cleanin' up every day....plus the bunny poop makes bugs/worms===free food! In Florida...I'd make sure my buns got a lot of shade....north side of a house or shade tree.

Goats can be trained to chow down on the lawn if you "shepherd" them 2 hrs a day....but the do love fruit trees and brambles! I also mow the lawn (2 acres) in sections and feed bagged clippings to goats/beef critter.....comfrey for the rabbits!

Cattle panels are nice for critters....expensive and hard to work with w/o help...but "final". I have to avoid expensive stuff so I keep my eye on the "dump" for free fencing....Gotten field fencing to chain link for free!

Wish you lived closer....I have a "spare" milk stand.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

LOL, saw the first pic and thought "Why so much room for two boats?" 
Then I saw the sinkhole...
Then I read about the deep diving rabbits...

Then I got to wondering if there was a little girl named "Alice" around.


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## manygoatsnmore (Feb 12, 2005)

*Harry*, you crack me up! Thanks for the giggle.


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## MOSSYNUT (Aug 8, 2014)

I've seen pictures of rabbits digging down 6 feet. So don't under estimate how far they can go. I didn't see any wetland in your picture which would help you out. My cousin has rabbits on the ground but they would need a snorkel to dig out. At his place you can find water at about 6".


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

I would not put goats on both sides of the orchard. I would suggest fencing the orchard and garden together then put chickens in a "moat" around the garden and orchard so you have the "goat enticements" double fenced. The chickens in the moat will help with insect control. If you can have more than one section of garden fenced and rotate with chickens allowed access to a fallow area and also allowed access to the orchard, they will really keep the insects controlled better. Alternate the fallow garden area with the planted area. Don't let the chickens into the currently planted garden area.


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## AuntKitty (Oct 25, 2004)

If you do put the goats on either side of the orchard you will need to use cattle panels for your fencing. They will devote all their time to trying to get through that fence & eat your fruit trees while the trees are small. I would suggest you get larger goats so there is less chance they will climb the fence, no matter what type of fencing you end up going with. Goats LOVE fruit tree leaves and bark!

Kitty


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## Cancer_survivor (Aug 7, 2012)

Thank you for the input! Ya'll gave me something to consider. I never thought about the goats eating my trees.


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## Mutti (Sep 7, 2002)

All I know is placing your chickens next to your pigs is NOT a good idea if you plan to use regular fencing or hog panels....personally watched more than one of our chickens sticks its' head thru the fence and have a pig chomp it off!!!! Just a caution. Omnivores means pigs will eat anything........................


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## Buffy in Dallas (May 10, 2002)

Some things I look at when planning a property: Topographical map, Google map, Soil map, USDA Plant Hardiness Zone Map, Average annual precipitation map, Prevailing direction of wind, Latitude & Altitude.

Google permaculture zones and do some reading. 

Oh, and you can garden on sugar sand if you do raised beds with good soil.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

For the rabbits, put chicken wire on the ground. The grass can easily come up, but the rabbits can&#8217;t dig through it. It would be a pain to roll up the chicken wire every year, but easier than digging a 6&#8217; deep trench.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Maura said:


> For the rabbits, put chicken wire on the ground. The grass can easily come up, but the rabbits canât dig through it. It would be a pain to roll up the chicken wire every year, but easier than digging a 6â deep trench.


I would use a heavier gage of welded wire. Chicken wire will rust/dissolve over time and I've had rabbits chew through it. Lost a Dutch doe because we had to put her in a temporary cage with chicken wire over a opening and she chewed right through it. Then the dogs chewed through her.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

terri9630 said:


> I would use a heavier gage of welded wire. Chicken wire will rust/dissolve over time and I've had rabbits chew through it. Lost a Dutch doe because we had to put her in a temporary cage with chicken wire over a opening and she chewed right through it. Then the dogs chewed through her.


People use chain link, too. Whatever works. The Idea is to thwart the digging and do it without committing like concrete would.


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## Freya (Dec 3, 2005)

Harry Chickpea said:


> LOL, saw the first pic and thought "Why so much room for two boats?"
> Then I saw the sinkhole...
> Then I read about the deep diving rabbits...
> 
> Then I got to wondering if there was a little girl named "Alice" around.



I thought in the first pic the bottom part said "boat" and I wondered why they were putting one in the dirt? Maybe building one? :shrug:

The second pic I saw "sinkhole" and then thought, "Are they filling up the sinkhole to put the boat in?". :facepalm:

Then I sat there and wondered where the other thread was because I obviously missed a discussion about boats. :stars:

Then you posted. I went back and stared at the pics. Still wondered about the boat, but didn't see where you thought there were two of them? :shrug:


THEN it finally hit me.......... those were G's and NOT b's. ound:


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

Do you have plentiful water so you can provide cooling for the rabbits? Misting, or maybe water trickling down some shadecloth on the south and west sides?

The suggestion about raised bed gardens if you have physical problems is a good one. Even if you don't it makes life easier. Put vines (beans, kiwifruit, passionfruit, chokos/chayotes, maybe grapevines if they'll handle the climate) on lattice or high fencing to provide shade for animals. Obviously you'd need to cage the rabbits at night, or dogs and cats and snakes would get them. During day, if you let them run on fenced netting-bottomed grassed area, then you could make shelter areas between the raised beds. Netting-grass floor, a few cinder blocks, something flat for roof sitting on the blocks. You'd still need to fence the plant beds, though, or the rabbits and birds would be up there eating your vegetables. Oh, yes - rabbits are quite as capable of browsing fruit trees and bark as are goats - just they can't get to the high leaves as easily, so they start on the low bark earlier. 

Don't forget, predators (particularly raptors) come from the sky. You need a netting or mesh roof on 7' poles anywhere small stock are running loose. It needs to be able to withstand hungry bobcats and ferals and foxes and coyotes - foxes and coyotes are quite capable of climbing too. Predators, particularly snakes, start on the ground as well. You want a second layer of fine-mesh fencing so they can't just slide straight through. Ideally you want mesh netting on ground or just sunken a few inches deep for say 18" outside the the fence as well, so dogs and other predators get discouraged when they start digging.

You can build shady hedges from maize, sorghum, millet, or sugar cane. If so, it may provide a home and ladders for rodents and snakes, so take that into account.

Have you looked into aquaculture? Might make a decent addition, if you stock with strictly warm-water fish, and don't EVER let the water overheat.
Catfish, Nile perch, basa, tilapia. Carp are generally heat-resistant, and Koi can pay very well if you can tap into the right market - just check the prices of large koi. Provides a lot of greens as an alternative and backup to the gardens, too.


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