# LGD Puppy 'playing with' sheep, hurting them - help!



## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

My LGD puppy is a 6 month old Great Pyrenees, from sheep guardian parents.

He lives outside with my sheep (8 sheep) and a 3 year old Akbash/Maremma cross who also keeps guard.

A few weeks ago he started playing with the sheep a bit ... just climbing on them like he does with the bigger dog, and tugging on ears a little. He got told NO, rolled into submission, and seemed not to be getting too carried away with the play, so I was keeping an eye out but not terribly worried. I'm not here all day, and so I can't always catch him to correct him. I figured the sheep would let him know if he was out of line, as he is not THAT big yet and some of them have horns.

Anyway, last week he started really harassing one of the 'senior citizen' sheep - she's old and slow and can't really defend herself or get away, so when her ears were bitten up I figured we might be headed for trouble. The dog was seriously chastized when caught at it, and we put ben gay on the sheep's ears so they'd taste bad. With ears off limits, he started pulling out chunks of fleece - not much at first, just looked like he'd been climbing up and tugging a little and gotten a mouthful loose ... so he got kennelled for awhile (near the sheep still, but behind chain link). Of course, he escaped and was out being a good dog so all was fine ... but then the senior sheep lost even more fleece. We made her a coat to keep her warm and put HER in the kennel so she'd be safe from the puppy. 

Today, when we came home, two of the sheep have had a significant amount of fleece pulled off - one is missing about 1/3 of the fleece on her right side, and down her back leg she has chunks of flesh missing from the wool being yanked out. There are marks on her front legs where she was grabbed and 'tussled'. The other's got a bitten ear and about half the fleece pulled off her right rear leg.

So, the dog is now muzzled but still out with the sheep. That will at least keep the sheep safe, the dog with his flock, and give me time to think and figure out what else to do. 

I know that the puppies go through this stage: he thinks the sheep are his 'pack buddies' and doesn't realize that they can't tolerate the kind of play that dog puppies can tolerate. But he's got a BAD habit now of playing with wool that has to be broken. He will see a tuft of it on the ground and tussle it like he would with a toy. 

I know that people sometimes put a 'drag' on the dog if he chases the sheep ... but this doesn't seem to be much of a chase, more of a 'climb on and tug at' kind of playing (the sheep don't run away! silly things). I know that puppies sometimes hurt the lambs, so people sometimes muzzle them at lambing time until they learn to be careful (and outgrow their puppyness some more).

I am home tomorrow, so I am going to leave him muzzled (he was lying in the corner of the sheep shelter sulking badly after realizing he couldn't get the muzzle off - it is the kind he can supposedly eat and drink while wearing, but I think eating might be challenging). In the morning I'll go chain him outside the sheep pen with access to food and water and give him a muzzle break, then put him back in with the sheep with muzzle on and see how he does.

Any suggestions welcome!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

When I had that problem with one of my Maremmas I solved it with a shock collar. Its about the only way to do it because you cant always be right there when it happens. By using the collar I was able to watch her out on the pasture, and whenever she'd put her mouth on a sheep I'd "zap" her. It only took a couple of times to convince her that biting at sheep wan NOT a good idea, and she never associated the shock with me.

Putting a muzzle on wont teach him not to do it, and will keep him from doing his intended job.

http://www.gundogsonline.com/shock-collar/sportdog-shock-collar/


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## rockinl (Mar 23, 2006)

OHHHH, you cannot be too careful here. Zero tolerance on even looking at the sheep. 
I have an alpaca ranch, and had a 14 month old Great Pyrenees take down a $30,000 animal last year. 
He was from a reputable breeder who had trained him for 6 months to guard. I have another one now, and have learned many valuable lessons from other ranchers.

I have learned that until they are past 2, you can't totally trust them alone with valuable livestock. Also, that they should be walked around on a lead by you, and not allowed to make eye contact with the sheep. They are prey, and eye contact makes them nervous and skittery, and the chase is on. Gently correct him with a tug and a bad sound when he does.
They also are not allowed to follow the group. If the sheep are walking, he cannnot follow them. This prevents chasing. He will place himself between them and the perimeter or perceived danger by instinct, but he cannot follow them ever. :nono: 

I would take every precaution, (good job with the muzzle) and make sure he knows "no playing allowed". That he has removed fleece would make me very worried, and I would be very aggressive with his training.

Good Luck, Kimberly


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Thanks for the link, I will look into that!

I just went out and checked on everyone - all seems well, and he seems to be more comfortable now as well. I told him I know he's trying hard to be a good dog and I still love him and will help him learn to do his job properly. 

I found some good information here, as well ... (in case anyone else is running into similar problems!)

http://www.lgd.org/trainfaqs.html


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Your dog is a pup and bored. Your not home much of the time so what does he do? Finds his own entertainment. Pull him out from your sheep because the way he's going he will be a bigger menace than whatever it is he's supposed to be protecting them from.

Kimberly has given some good advice. Spend time with your pup and don't let him in with the sheep unless your there to supervise. If you allow him to carry on with his "play" the only thing that will fix the problem is a lead bullet. 

We don't need guard dogs here but do use dogs in a big way for working. I have two heading dogs for working sheep. Neither of them look at a sheep unless I go to muster and give them instructions. Other than that, they can walk within two feet of a sheep and the dogs with ignore the sheep and the sheep won't even bother to stand up. I wouldn't have it any other way, even with a pup.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

What does the breeder suggest, he/she will want to know what thier pups are doing and may have valuable tips too! I can second the effectiveness of shock collars as training aides used properly for other behavior problems. Can't say how they'd work on a LGD, I don't have one. Interestingly I've lost no lambs or sheep this year, although I typically lose 10+/year.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

The breeder was the one who'd suggested the muzzle - she had used them effectively with their pups when they were getting overly enthusiastic with lambs. They'd used a drag before, but found it was hard on the dog's body and didn't always help with the nibbling/chewing/biting behaviours. I don't think it would've occurred to me without her suggestion!

We'd been leaving the dogs to their own devices most of the time, as that was what all the LGD training materials I'd come across said - don't play with them too much or they'll want to be with you not the sheep. We give them new rawhide chew things pretty much every day, especially the pup once his teething got really intense. However, I can see that he really needs play time - more than he's getting by himself right now - and we can certainly be the ones to provide that. I imagine it's like every other animal/kid growing up ... they are fine, and fine, and fine, and then suddenly their needs change and you have to keep up with them!

As soon as it's light I'll be heading outside to deliver food and water and at that time I'll take both dogs out to the pasture beside the sheep and play for awhile. Then, since I'm here during the day today, I'll leave the puppy on a tie out chain inside the sheep pasture, no muzzle, and check on everyone periodically. The sheep should have no trouble walking beyond the reach of his leash, but I want to see that for sure.

It's tough to know the best route to take, I guess we'll try a few things and see how it goes. Thanks for all the ideas!


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## dezeeuwgoats (Jan 12, 2006)

There are some good LGD training articles on this website - 

http://www.luckyhit.net/anatolia.htm

although they are geared towards anatolians, some of it may be helpful.

Niki


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Thanks, Niki, hadn't found that link yet!

So, our morning went well - I gave the dogs breakfast and unmuzzled the puppy so he could eat easier (he can eat with it on, but it can't be comfortable) and fed the sheep while the dogs had their food. I got down and tried to play with the dogs, the way I used to play with my big Akita or with my little beagle, but neither of them seemed to understand what was going on ... they'd both just roll over if I hugged them or wrestled with them, neither would "take the bait" of me batting at them with my hands, or the "I'm gonna get you" run. So I settled for rubbing the puppy's head for awhile, and giving him a hug (he seemed to like sitting right next to me, so I just sat and petted him awhile). 

I am thinking this is all good: I am the boss dog, and you do not 'play' with the boss, and chasing games and nipping games are not good ones to play, even with the human. It was a good expeirment, though, I feel better having seen more of their reactions to 'play games'. I can be the Bearer of Chew Things, and the Giver of Pats on the Head and Scratches By the Ears and that's probably about it. I think this is probably all good.

I wanted to rake up all the fleece that was in the sheep pen so that the dogs wouldn't play with it, so I left them loose while I did that and could watch them. The puppy sniffed a bit too close at one of the horned sheep and she gave him a quick nudge with her horns which he instantly sumbitted to (interestingly, the only ones with pulled wool are polled - a friend suggested I need a few pair of snap on horns for the polled sheep and then the puppy wouldn't mess with them!). 

I had a couple of frozen eggs that I gave to the dogs to eat (those apparently make good chew toys, kept them occupied quite awhile!) and let them work on those while I raked. The puppy made NO move towards the sheep at all, even when he was done with his egg. He seemed to be trying hard to prove his good intentions.

When I left to go in the house, I chained the puppy to the inside of the pasture fence, on the side away from the hay feeder where the sheep hang out. He's looking rather confused, but sitting very politely as though he wants to prove he's a good boy. I'm leaving him tied up for the morning, and will muzzle him and let him off for the afternoon - it's snowing like mad out there and I would feel better if he had the option of going under the shelter with the sheep (but knowing he can't play with them should his adolescent urges get the better of him). The dogs tend to be fairly laid back midday anyway.

So far, I think things are looking up - I am hopeful that I caught it in time and was firm enough in my corrections that he's getting the message.

Thanks for all your help - I'll keep posting about the saga as it unfolds and I'd be grateful if you'd chime in with any suggestions or interpretations of doggy thinking and behaviour as we go!


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## OregonGuys (Mar 13, 2005)

Isolate your pup with an appropriately aggressive sheep or two... Aggressive enough to teach the dog his place, but not so aggressive to scare and scar him for life. We've had to put our very large aggressive LGD pup with our largest horned rams as he outgrew younger / less aggressive sheep/goats. An appropriately aggressive sheep will do all the training and do it very well. 

When the pup outgrows his puppy stage, he will then be able to be trusted with a wider range of sheep/goats.

Hope this helps.


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## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

I would ask for advice on the LGD/Pyr list - no shortage of people there have pyrs working with the sheep. 

I do a lot of "puppy push ups" with my girl in the run. I learned that one from the list - any time she's being a goof etc. that's what we do. I also have her out of the run for a period of play every day (well, that's getting a bit less as she gets a bit older - we're just two now) so that she can be a nut. When she's in there there's no playing allowed - chew toys yes, but no running and goofing off.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Isolating him with the tougher ewes would be the best solution - if I could figure out how to get him and them both into a fenced area that would hold them. I'm still in the process of setting up infrastructure and have no crossfencing yet. I could divide the pen I have, but then I'd need a second shelter ... the Icelandics don't need much shelter but it's -20 C and windy, so right now they'll definitely need *something*. Hmm. I will give this one some thought. Perhaps when it warms up a little I can try something.

It's brutally cold outside right now, and all 8 sheep and 2 dogs are huddled together in the shelter. Nobody is feeling very playful, that's for sure! I have noticed my senior LGD licking the wounds of the hurt sheep, I could tell he was being "caring" not "playful", he was very gentle and the sheep stood and let him do it. I suppose it's instinctive for him.

The pup is accepting the muzzle, although it's clear he'd rather have it off, he doesn't argue about having it put on. It does seem to have the desired effect - he's not chasing or tugging or climbing on the sheep at all as far as I can tell. He's been behaving himself quite well when he's allowed to just be loose and unmuzzled (with me right there). But then, it's easy to be good for 15 minutes when the Boss Person is watching.

I'll see if he wants to come out and play a little later on today ... if any of us can stand to be out in the yard for any length of time! Brrr!


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## OregonGuys (Mar 13, 2005)

How about making a temporary pen out of cattle panels and t-posts. Perhaps 16 X 16 or 16 X 32. Leave one corner open to get them all in using food, and then catch and let the bashful ones out. You can also make a cheap shelter within the pen using a couple of semicircularly bent cattle panels and a tarp. You could do this in 4, 15 minute intervals getting warm in-between.

Cattle/Hog panels are better than duct-tape - always have a stack.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

I know, cattle panels are wonderful things ... but I have to pay to have 'em delivered as they'll not fit in my itty bitty truck! 

We extended our sheep pen just a few weeks ago to let everyone have more room and to enclose the shelter within the pen as well ... I can pull the fencing back across the end that we extended and that'll tighten things up nice & quick and should be fairly puppy escape proof as well (although I swear they are shape shifters, those dogs). I just have to rig up a shelter for the Big Tough Mamma Sheep that I leave in there with him, since it's so darn cold and windy. I have a couple of ideas that might work, maybe I'll try a few things on the weekend. I've got a giant tarp (and I mean giant!) that I can probably make a triangular corner shelter with if I get creative ... attach it to the corners of the fence, and let it trail down the sides to make a wind break and stretch across the top to make a roof. So long as they're out of the wind they'll be ok. Hmmm, yeah, that might work. Zip ties and tarps! Woohoo!

We have enough winter gear to work outside in the cold for a couple of hours without getting too chilled, so it won't be a nasty job. My SO was planning on going on a 4x4 driving/outdoor camping trip this weekend (he does this every winter with some buddies) but even they decided this is a bit much. As they said, "We are real men ... but we're not stupid!"


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## OregonGuys (Mar 13, 2005)

Something we swear by in teaching LGDs to respect fences is an electric fence wire running around the perimeter at the bottom of the fence. Once they get shocked a few times, they rarely attempt to go under a fence again. No more escapes (even with the power off).


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## Meg Z (Jun 8, 2004)

frazzlehead said:


> I know, cattle panels are wonderful things ... but I have to pay to have 'em delivered as they'll not fit in my itty bitty truck!


I've been reading with interest, but since I've never owned an LDG, have had no comment, until now!

Those stock panels can be carried home in your truck, although only a couple at a time. What you do is 'horseshoe' them in. Insert one end into the bed of the truck, on edge, up against the side. Then curve it around so you can stick the other side in the same way. It looks like a horseshoe, with the open end at the cab, and the curve at the back. I can do four panels at a time in my Silverado, and dad can handle two at a time in his Ranger. 

Be careful loading and unloading, 'cause they'll sproing out and bite you if you're not careful! Tie them down to travel. And they'll have a slight bend, but it's easily fixed. Beats paying money for delivery!

Meg


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## minnikin1 (Feb 3, 2003)

Flannelberry - what are puppy pushups?


I'm experiencing some similar troubles with our pup. (6 months) She 
just does not want to be submissive to the stock. We go on leash and she's fine, but the moment I decide to "test' her and let her off leash, she jumps on or over them, grabs for their ears, runs around them like a loon.
When I put her in with my most aggressive ewe, she thinks its a game and 
play bows and dashes just out of reach. When the ewe manages to butt her, the dog snaps at her. (all my sheep are polled)
We're exercising her, doing what we can to keep her busy with bones and chewies and toys... 

In the meantime, my shouting at her and trying to grab her is making my sheep fearful of ME! 
My peaceful pastures are no more, and I'm beginning to lose my patience about this whole LGD thing altogether.  

I considered the shock collar idea, but I'm afraid the dog will associate the shock with the sheep and begin to avoid them. 

I've read the articles and all the books. 
I've been on the online email groups, and I'm noticing that no matter how awful a dog is behaving, I've never heard someone say, "maybe that dog isn't LGD material". 
When would someone know if a particular dog just does not have the proper instinct? This is a lot of work. Am I going to bust my tail trying to train a dog for 2 years that will never "get it"? :help: 

Sorry for all the negativity.. 
we're having quite a few bad days in a row and it's taking it's toll. 

So I'm going to try the muzzle today and a drag while I'm out there. 
Frazzlehead, I know what you're going through!


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## OregonGuys (Mar 13, 2005)

Minnikin: If your dog is snapping at your most aggressive animal that's trouble. It's absolutely possible that your dog will never get it at this point. It's absolutely possible that he/she just doesn't have the makeup of a good guardian dog. Only a certain percentage have the right inborn behavior. Until recently, guardian dogs were treated like livestock - the dogs that didn't show the proper behavior and proper conformation were culled.

Perhaps you could acquire an aggressive horned sheep or goat to pen separately with the dog. Short of that, I would try the shock collar as a last resort. If that doesn't work I would cull your dog. If you think he will make a good pet (I doubt it) then perhaps you can find a pet home, otherwise I would have him humanely put to sleep and move on. If you get another pup, I would strongly recommend that you talk to breeders who have working dogs and have a good eye for picking potential working pups out of a litter. I would also make certain you have a good range of appropriately aggressive animals (including horns) to keep one step ahead of the pup as he grows.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Update for today!

We got the pasture split into two parts, and all the polled sheep are safely on one side of the fence and the horned sheep are in (what seems to be) a puppy-escape-proof enclosure.

We took a big tarp and draped it over one corner of the fence, so that it provides shelter from the prevailing winds, and I put some hay down on the ground inside (I'm all outta straw, gotta get more!). The puppy went in there, although the Icelandics don't seem to care too much about the cold and snow unless the wind really howls.

The big brown ewe takes NO nonsense from the puppy. He looks at her like he's considering playing and she glares at him and shows him her horns. He immediately backs off from that! He seems a bit confused why he's in there apart from his buddy the other dog, but everyone seems to be doing all right.

It's been a lousy weekend with vehicle troubles, a visit to the ditch, a generator that won't start, a dead chicken (looks like it froze, poor thing) and a dead sheep (the senior oldster died peacefully in her sleep - no doubt the cold and the stress of the puppy's harassment speeded her end, but I'm not particularly surprised). Hopefully this will work out ... it'd be nice to have one thing go right!


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## minnikin1 (Feb 3, 2003)

OregonGuys said:


> I would also make certain you have a good range of appropriately aggressive animals (including horns) to keep one step ahead of the pup as he grows.


Yes, I'm planning to add some horned critters, so that should help matters.

The morning after I made that crybaby post, I did use the drag and I am not exaggerating when I say I was astounded at the good result. 
I won't use it on her for extended periods of time or without supervision, but it was GREAT. When I let the sheep out first thing in the am, she did her usual overexcited greeting and tried to jump on one - getting a swift whack in the knee that brought her back to earth quicker than I could've corrected her. 

The ewe that she has been battling was watching her struggle around with the new "handicap" and backed right off. 

This morning was bliss!


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