# Ellen's Important Message



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

I thought this was important for as many people as possible to see.

http://ellen.warnerbros.com/2010/09/an_important_message_from_ellen_about_bullying_0930.php


----------



## Megabeth (Aug 7, 2008)

A very serious message from a very funny lady. Thanks for posting.


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

what's it about?


----------



## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Here you go Angie, it's just heartbreaking..

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Societ...t-death-Has-Digital-Age-made-students-callous


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

thanks - I could not get the other link, it's blocked from where I am.
I heard this story being covered on morning news.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

I had a lot of respect for Ellen before I saw this, now I have even more.


----------



## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

It's scary and sad what children face on a daily basis. Bullying isn't new, but it has escaleted to new hights of cruelty. I was bullied all through middle school and part of highschool, until transfered. It is horrible what words can do to a child. (Stick and stones is a fib!) Actions are also hurtful, but I believe that words can do much more emotional damage. I feel for all of these families.

I also saw an article on a 60's woman who was bullied by a bunch of kids. It's not only children, but anyone who is at a disadvantage who is at risk for bullying. We must teach our children that this is not ok.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Tiempo said:


> Here you go Angie, it's just heartbreaking..
> 
> http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Societ...t-death-Has-Digital-Age-made-students-callous


This is precisely the type of problem I was raging about on the internet wiretapping topic. I was told I was getting too emotional about it. 
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=368154

.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Great message from a classy lady.


----------



## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

Clementi's story broke my heart. I can't say that I blame the roommate, though. He is just a bully.

What about the family? Why would that boy jump off a bridge because of being outed? Because he believed his family would not show him the love and understanding that they should have. He believed their finding out he was gay was so bad he felt he had to jump off a bridge. What the heck? They would disown him he probably thought. Maybe they would have. Or maybe they would have understood.

My best friend in college (I was also his 'date' to family gatherings) was outed because his Details-like magazine did not cancel his subscription as he asked, and it was forwarded to his (religious) family's home. I tried to comfort him and tell him his parent's wouldn't care. He wouldn't hear it. He just knew his parents would disown him. He disappeared for a week and all of us, all his friends, nearly died with worry. 

Know what? Thank God he he gathered up his courage and told his parents. After some awkward, uneducated and sort of funny questions on the part of his parents, they told him they always kinda knew and loved him no matter what.

The sad part is that he felt the need to disappear like he did. He never told me what he did that week or the details of his struggle. I can guarantee suicide crossed his mind. How sad it was that he didn't get enough love and understanding from his parents in the first place. How sad that he had to panic. How sad that he didn't believe that his parents loved him enough to not care about his sexuality.

I just thank God that he loved life enough and had enough courage to face his parents, no matter what they might say or do about his sexuality.

I bet Mr. Clementi's parents are wishing their son would have come to them first. Although, it does sort of remind me of the movie Heathers. "I love my dead, gay son." Would Clementi have been as lucky as my friend?


----------



## sewserious (Apr 2, 2010)

Who said these kids didn't get enough love and understanding from their parents? I always told my girls they could come to me with anything; I might not like what they had to tell me and I might even be angry, sad, etc for a while, but I would get over it. and that I would always love them no matter what. Well, guess what. The oldest got pregnant right out of high school, etc. and now she is living with another she. Did I get angry, yes. Do I like what she has done and is doing? No. Do I still love her anyway? You betcha! She told me, the several times she has come to me and told me things she has done, that it was the hardest thing in the world to do and never got easier. She said she knew it was because I would be disappointed and that I did love her so much that actually made it harder, not easier. She said if I hadn't cared, she wouldn't have really cared what I thought, but it mattered to her. She has also thought about suicide several times in her life, so she has told me. So, just because a kid does something like this doesn't mean their parents didn't love them. Some people just don't handle things well for whatever reason.


----------



## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

I think that Clementi was mortified. I would be completely mortified if someone made a video of me having hetero sex and posted it on the internet.In his case, they actually streamed it live! Twice!!

At that age, I can imagine that it felt like the end of the world to have this happen on his new college campus, during the fresh start that everyone gets in college. It is possible that the homosexuality had nothing to do with his suicide. This could have just as easily been a straight kid who felt the same way.It is a crying shame that this talented young man was harassed to the point of feeling that suicide was his only option.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

I agree with post #11. We don't know what his life was like with his parents. What we do know is that he was 18, and at that age things sometimes seem insurmountable (sp). I can't imagine how embarrassing this was for him. He must have felt that everyone would be harrassing him or making fun of him because of this. To a teen, image is everything.


----------



## jadedhkr (Oct 25, 2004)

It's not always lack of caring parents that push a child over the edge. I hated my teen years and had to endure a lot of bullying and taunts. I wanted to die many times and I did become a cutter. It took me years to get over it, heck I'm still not completely over it. Those kids made me miserable.

Knowing what I went through I am very sensitive to my kids and the things they go though at school.

Recently my 16yo daughter came to me with a problem. She was upset because there is a girl at school that seems to have singled her out. The problem is compounded by the girls skin color. My daughter is now afraid of all black people and doesn't want to go back to school because of this one girl. She gets her friends together and they harass my daughter.

I had a long talk with her, let her know that skin color doesn't matter, everyone is human and capable of being just as nasty as the next person but I don't have any real good advice. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense and some people are just plain mean.

I don't want her getting hurt or hurting herself over this teen bully, but what is there to do? I tried to get her to tell me this girls name. I want to report the problem to the school, but my daughter is afraid. 

It's hard being young and having people judging you and laughing. I know what it's like to want to die instead of walking into school again. My parents would never have understood.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

jadedhkr said:


> It's not always lack of caring parents that push a child over the edge. I hated my teen years and had to endure a lot of bullying and taunts. I wanted to die many times and I did become a cutter. It took me years to get over it, heck I'm still not completely over it. Those kids made me miserable.
> 
> Knowing what I went through I am very sensitive to my kids and the things they go though at school.
> 
> ...


You're right, skin color has nothing to do with it. My DS is bi-racial, he's adopted. DH and I are both caucasion. Some kids in the neighborhood have given him a hard time about this. He's always saying he wants pink skin like mine. I try to explain to him that his skin is beautiful and that many people pay a lot of money to get their skin the color his is.

DS also has learning disabilities. Some of the kids call him the retard. He's not retarded, but because he's different that's all they see. Fortunately, he also has some very good friends in the neighborhood that defend him when bullies come around and we don't see the bullies much any more. 

It's unfortunate, but there will always be bullies. We have to teach our kids self respect at an early age so that when the bullying starts they will take it with a grain of salt. My DS is finally starting to understand that.


----------



## ajaxlucy (Jul 18, 2004)

It has always surprised me that Ellen is so popular since she's openly gay, but maybe that means that more people will lesson to her message. Good for her!


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

ajaxlucy said:


> It has always surprised me that Ellen is so popular since she's openly gay, but maybe that means that more people will lesson to her message. Good for her!


What many don't understand about Conservative Christians is that although we don't agree with the lifestyle, we don't hate the person who chooses it. When we see someone like Rosie O'Donnel that is in your face about it, that's when I have a problem with it. I've always liked Ellen, as one poster stated, she's a classy lady, and I have a lot of respect for her, regardless of her sexual orientation.


----------



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

So once again pushing their Abnormal Behaivor whats so special.If Parents and Children had been trying to follow the Word of God they wouldn't have this problem.

big rockpile


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

FeralFemale said:


> Clementi's story broke my heart. I can't say that I blame the roommate, though. He is just a bully.
> 
> What about the family? Why would that boy jump off a bridge because of being outed? Because he believed his family would not show him the love and understanding that they should have. He believed their finding out he was gay was so bad he felt he had to jump off a bridge. What the heck? They would disown him he probably thought. Maybe they would have. Or maybe they would have understood.


So you're blaming the family instead of the roommate, even though we know for sure what the roommate did but have no info on the boy's family. Nice story, good lecture, just irrelevant to the facts in play at this time.


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

big rockpile said:


> So once again pushing their Abnormal Behaivor whats so special.If Parents and Children had been trying to follow the Word of God they wouldn't have this problem.
> 
> big rockpile


Pushing how? He was having sex in what should have been the privacy of his own room.


----------



## rean (Nov 18, 2008)

My openly gay friend wants so much to be loved that he appears overtly desperate, and therefore chases a prospective mate away. In this I feel bad for him. Because of this overtness, every conversation he has ends up being about something homosexual, whether it be personal, political, or sexual. In this I feel angry, because I don't ram my moral beliefs down his throat. Such extreme ends of the spectrum. Like a poster before me noted in the comparison of Ellen and Rosie O'Donnell, except in one person.


----------



## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

big rockpile said:


> So once again pushing their Abnormal Behaivor whats so special.If Parents and Children had been trying to follow the Word of God they wouldn't have this problem.
> 
> big rockpile


I don't think you of all people should be judging anyone for "abnormal behavior."


----------



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Reptyle said:


> I don't think you of all people should be judging anyone for "abnormal behavior."


Like :shrug: Hey I'm not perfect but at least I make an effort.

big rockpile


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

Oh I'm sure it's easy not having gay sex when you're not gay. How have you done with the whole sex is only for marriage/staying faithful/not lusting in your heart thing when it comes to the male-female version?


----------



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

JanS said:


> Oh I'm sure it's easy not having gay sex when you're not gay. How have you done with the whole sex is only for marriage/staying faithful/not lusting in your heart thing when it comes to the male-female version?


Doing fine here have other things on my mind then that.

big rockpile


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

Sure, now that you're older. This boy was 18.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Here's what I gathered FROM ONLY READING THE ARTICLE:

Male, Freshman, approximate age 18.
Prestegious College
He was into "diversity" OR the college is so diverse.....his room mate and the girl's names "imply" diversity..
He thought he had privacy. Silly. That dorm room is not private, ever.
This article showed no 'pattern' of the two "bullying" this young man.

Tolerance is at the root of all of this ARTICLE.
The only reason this "bullying" got ANY press is because the victim was a homosexual....

What those two did was stupid. 
Bullying?
*This article* didn't prove, or even HINT at any facts that those two were "bullying".

Here's my problem with calling this bullying.
Pick up a news paper. You will see an article in it, every day, where some kid is getting the snot beat out of him, or teased out of him, or intimadated out of him at school.
Kids are killing themselves in higher numbers every year because of this relentless merciless daily bullying.
THAT is a tragedy. And that is Bullying.


This young man in the story, that took his life, (based upon the information in the story) one can only come to the conclusion that because he was EXPOSED having homosexual relations, that his shame and his embarrassment drove him to suicide. NOT NOT NOT because he was being "bullied".

See that's the 'buzz' word right now,(bully) and since Ellen is a 'hollywood person' who lives and dies by ratings.....OF COURSE she is going to use this word!
*
It is sad that this child took his life.
I wish he could have reached out for help.*
It is stupid that those two 'spied' on him and 'exposed' him.
Typical. Kids don't think things through they just act on feelings.

But bullying?
I think not.


----------



## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

big rockpile said:


> Like :shrug: Hey I'm not perfect but at least I make an effort.
> 
> big rockpile


Really? Then why don't you tell me exactly what was "Christian" about your earlier comment. A young man is dead, due in some large part to bullying. The woman, regardless of her sexual preferences, was speaking out against bullying and stating that people shouldn't have to put up with that...Now how exactly is that "pushing their agenda?"
I've reread your statement and have yet to note even to smallest attempt at "making an effort to be perfect."


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

big rockpile said:


> So once again pushing their Abnormal Behaivor whats so special.If Parents and Children had been trying to follow the Word of God they wouldn't have this problem.
> 
> big rockpile


Who is pushing WHAT? A kid died because of being harassed and humiliated over who he was.

And the word of god has nothing to do with it :grump: You have NO clue how his family life was, following the bible, the koran, the book of the dead, etc has NOTHING to do with this :flame:


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

big rockpile said:


> Doing fine here have other things on my mind then that.
> 
> big rockpile


Oh come on, weve all been regaled with your "stories" of swinging, wife swapping, sexual encounters, drugs, etc.


----------



## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

Such a sad story. I hope that the students who did this to him really and truly regret exposing him on the internet, not because of what will happen to them, but because their actions mortified Clementi so much, he took suicide as a way out. So sad.

BRP, I really don't understand your take on this at all.


----------



## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Here's what I gathered:
> 
> Male, Freshman, approximate age 18.
> Prestegious College
> ...



Sonja Henie's tutu!

Talk about someone with an agenda.

Diversity and tolerance are at fault?

Look at the roommate's and his friend's names?

The gist of the thinking behind that post seems to betray ill-founded prejudice of those who are different.

Well, shame on Rutgers for admitting students who didn't have Anglo-Saxon names. Shame on them for admitting students who might not be straight. Obviously, this rampant tolerance will be the downfall of all that is America.

Just because they didn't drag this guy out of his room and beat the tar out of him (The fact that we don't do that as much anymore is another sign of rampant tolerance run amok.) doesn't mean that he wasn't bullied.

Bullying on the Internet is a fact of modern life. It's just as real as the emotional and physical bullying that takes place in the physical world.

Today's young whopper-snappers tend to live at least two lives: physical and cyber. Sometimes they're so intertwined that they are virtually indistinguishable.

What bother's me perhaps most about Ellen's message is that it still needs to be voiced. I mean, did these college students not know that it is wrong to secretly record someone's private moments and then broadcast them to the whole world?

But, you hear about many of these sorts of things happening each week. Someone, usually a younger person, publishes private moments, information or messages for all to see.

But, it should be obvious to everyone, especially here, that many folks don't think before they publish things on the Internet.


----------



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Shygal said:


> Oh come on, weve all been regaled with your "stories" of swinging, wife swapping, sexual encounters, drugs, etc.


Yes and I changed my ways it led to my Divorcing my first wife I found that way of life was wrong.

If this kid had been following the Word of God he wouldn't have found his self in this position to be bullied and would haven't thought of suicied.Yes I found myself in his position and found following Gods Word is much better.

Ellen wouldn't have said a word if it hadn't been the fact that he was Gay.She was pushing the Gay Agenda.

big rockpile


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Life is not easy. It never was. It never will be.

While I regret this young man took his own life, it seems we are rapidly turning one of the most resilient species on the face of the planet into quaking mush. Adversity should be met with the will to adapt, learn and overcome.


----------



## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

big rockpile said:


> Yes and I changed my ways it led to my Divorcing my first wife I found that way of life was wrong.
> 
> If this kid had been following the Word of God he wouldn't have found his self in this position to be bullied and would haven't thought of suicied.Yes I found myself in his position and found following Gods Word is much better.
> 
> ...


Once again, BRP, you've opened your mouth and stuck BOTH feet into it.

You'd think that by now, you'd have learned something.


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> It is stupid that those two 'spied' on him and 'exposed' him.


Playing a person's private sexual encounter over the internet where millions of people can access it is a lot more than "spying". Again, we have no idea if the young man was out as a homosexual or not so "exposed" isn't necessarily the correct word either. Unless you know more about the story than the rest of us.

You and the others who are downplaying this situation, I'd LOVE to see your reaction if the camera had been in YOUR bedroom and YOUR relatives, neighbors, church family, children's friends all had access to it.


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

big rockpile said:


> Yes and I changed my ways it led to my Divorcing my first wife I found that way of life was wrong.
> 
> If this kid had been following the Word of God he wouldn't have found his self in this position to be bullied and would haven't thought of suicied.Yes I found myself in his position and found following Gods Word is much better.
> 
> ...


Pushing the gay agenda....what does that mean exactly? Are they trying to turn everyone gay?

As for following God's word....yep, now that you already had your fun. I'm willing to bet that if you woke up tomorrow morning and were 18 again, you'd be right back out there. It's easy to drive under the speed limit when there's no gas left in the tank.


----------



## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

JanS said:


> Pushing the gay agenda....what does that mean exactly? Are they trying to turn everyone gay?
> 
> As for following God's word....yep, now that you already had your fun. I'm willing to bet that if you woke up tomorrow morning and were 18 again, you'd be right back out there. It's easy to drive under the speed limit when there's no gas left in the tank.



BBWWHAHAHAHHAHAH!! That's the best line ever. I am totally going to use that sometime.


----------



## Emmy D (Sep 7, 2009)

Post of the DAY JanS, Post of the DAY!!!

Thank you!
Emmy


----------



## Emmy D (Sep 7, 2009)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Here's what I gathered:
> 
> Male, Freshman, approximate age 18.
> Prestegious College
> ...


Did you watch the video? She talked about FOUR young people, three of whom have taken their lives in the last few weeks due to bullying, she was addressing all of that not just the case at Rutgers!

One of the boys who's name she mentions had his arm broken (at 11 years old) because he had the audacity to want to be a cheerleader...his arm was broken by classmates who are on the football team...how is that NOT bullying???

Emmy


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

JanS said:


> Pushing the gay agenda....what does that mean exactly? Are they trying to turn everyone gay?
> 
> *As for following God's word....yep, now that you already had your fun.* I'm willing to bet that if you woke up tomorrow morning and were 18 again, you'd be right back out there. It's easy to drive under the speed limit when there's no gas left in the tank.


I know this was not addressed to me, but would like to say something anyway, "now that you have already had your fun"?? As a Christian, I can guarantee you that I have had more fun in life after I became a Christian than before I was one. What's fun about drinking so much that you spend the night puking and the next day with a hang over? What's fun about always trying to chase something down, only to catch up with it and realize it's not satisfying, so you continue doing it and are never really happy?

I had about as much fun as I could handle before becoming a Christian, in fact, I had so much fun that I attempted suicide several times. You can keep that kind of fun.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

No matter the reasons this boy chose to take his own life, it's a waste. For anyone to take their life should make all of us stop and think. As for Ellen pushing her gay agenda, get real. Even if that was her goal, which I seriously doubt, she still did the right thing by talking about this situation. This death should have never happened. If Ellen's stardom helps to open the eyes of some people, then I'm glad she spoke out.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

big rockpile said:


> So once again pushing their Abnormal Behaivor whats so special.If Parents and Children had been trying to follow the Word of God they wouldn't have this problem.
> 
> big rockpile


If a couple of teens had been taught to respect the privacy of others, this wouldn't have happened either. We can try to browbeat people who believe differently than we do into accepting our beliefs, or we can try to be a little compassionate when a tragedy, such as a young life being cut short, happens. I think I'll try to have some compassion.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Here's what I gathered:
> 
> Male, Freshman, approximate age 18.
> Prestegious College
> ...


Not too long ago there was a story on the news about a young girl who took her own life. She was not gay, but the internet was used against her, by an adult that pretended to be a guy. This isn't about the boy being gay, it's about cyber bullying. You don't have to be beaten to be bullied. Emotional scars are sometimes worse than the physical scars.


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

Sonshine said:


> I know this was not addressed to me, but would like to say something anyway, "now that you have already had your fun"?? As a Christian, I can guarantee you that I have had more fun in life after I became a Christian than before I was one. What's fun about drinking so much that you spend the night puking and the next day with a hang over? What's fun about always trying to chase something down, only to catch up with it and realize it's not satisfying, so you continue doing it and are never really happy?
> 
> I had about as much fun as I could handle before becoming a Christian, in fact, I had so much fun that I attempted suicide several times. You can keep that kind of fun.


By focusing on one word, you missed what I was getting at. I wasn't advocating the wild life. I personally don't drink and party all night long. The point was that Rockpile did his share of sinning when he was young and now wants to throw stones from behind his Bible. I'd expect someone who has made his mistakes to be a little more understanding.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

JanS said:


> By focusing on one word, you missed what I was getting at. I wasn't advocating the wild life. I personally don't drink and party all night long. The point was that Rockpile did his share of sinning when he was young and now wants to throw stones from behind his Bible. I'd expect someone who has made his mistakes to be a little more understanding.


Agreed, and I hope I clarified that in my following posts. It's just I have heard people tell me basically the same thing you had told him many times since I've been a Christian and I guess it just hit a nerve.


----------



## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

While we're on the subject of clarifying, while I don't always agree with the way BR comes at some posts, bluntly put, making mistakes doesn't remove from someone the right to express their opinion...otherwise this would be a very quiet forum, and THAT will never happen.

I will also say (because I'm blunt and honest) that this isn't exactly the first thread (or even the second) I've come across in the last few days having to do with the subject of homosexuality. I can easily see/understand where some are getting the impression that subject/topic is being advanced publicly...and those who disagree with the lifestyle can't be expected to agree with it, nor should they be expected to. It's their right to feel that way. The only thing I personally have a problem with is what EVERYONE is guilty of - lack of courtesy. Let's continue keeping it civil.


----------



## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

Frankly, I don't see much reason for controvery here. A young man had his privacy violated by two of his classmates, and the humiliation drove him to commit suicide. His choice of sexual partners is irrelevant. The two who did this to him need to be punished to the fullest extent the law will allow, if for no other reason but to give others something to think about before they do something like this to another person.


----------



## bluesky (Mar 22, 2008)

deaconjim said:


> Frankly, I don't see much reason for controvery here. A young man had his privacy violated by two of his classmates, and the humiliation drove him to commit suicide. His choice of sexual partners is irrelevant. The two who did this to him need to be punished to the fullest extent the law will allow, if for no other reason but to give others something to think about before they do something like this to another person.


:clap:


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

Kung said:


> While we're on the subject of clarifying, while I don't always agree with the way BR comes at some posts, bluntly put, making mistakes doesn't remove from someone the right to express their opinion...otherwise this would be a very quiet forum, and THAT will never happen.


Oh I'm well aware. Just hoping to help him see the error of his ways.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

JanS said:


> Playing a person's private sexual encounter over the internet where millions of people can access it is a lot more than "spying". Again, we have no idea if the young man was out as a homosexual or not so "exposed" isn't necessarily the correct word either. Unless you know more about the story than the rest of us.
> 
> You and the others who are downplaying this situation,* I'd LOVE to see your reaction if the camera had been in YOUR bedroom and YOUR relatives, neighbors, church family, children's friends all had access to it*.


Ok, I will entertain your comment in bold, even though it is comparing apples to hand grenades. 

So for starters:
A) I would not be having sex in a public place to start with.
B) I would not be having **** sexual sex, ever.
C) This was not HIS bedroom....it is a PUBLIC DORM......THAT HE SHARED with another PAYING STUDENT.
D) I do not leave my computers ON, unattended.

Now why do you suppose that is? Why do you suppose that I would make the above choices (or chose differently than the 18 year old child)

Um, because I am an adult, that has lived long enough, and experienced enough "life" to know that secrets, are never secrets, when done in public.
This boy that killed himself was a CHILD. Yeah Yeah, he was 18. Chronologically an 'adult'. But emotionally, and life experience wise........A CHILD.
So he did not THINK before he ACTED on his EMOTIONS.
That's what happens when we let our emotions lead us. 

Exposed, in the since that, if he was "in the closet", that is now made known to the world, thus being "exposed".
Exposed, in the sense, that he was NAKED for the public to see. Nakedness is exposure.

You didn't read what I said, if you think I am downplaying this.
There is a dead child. A child who took his own life.
THAT is a tragedy.

I was giving my "take" on the information I gathered, reading the article.
I believe I stated that in the FIRST sentence of my post?

I hope I cleared everything up!!


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Emmy D said:


> Did you watch the video? She talked about FOUR young people, three of whom have taken their lives in the last few weeks due to bullying, she was addressing all of that not just the case at Rutgers!
> 
> One of the boys who's name she mentions had his arm broken (at 11 years old) because he had the audacity to want to be a cheerleader...his arm was broken by classmates who are on the football team...how is that NOT bullying???
> 
> Emmy


I'm sorry I was not clearer. I only read the article, and what I posted was what I gathered from that written article.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

big rockpile said:


> Yes and I changed my ways it led to my Divorcing my first wife I found that way of life was wrong.
> 
> If this kid had been following the Word of God he wouldn't have found his self in this position to be bullied and would haven't thought of suicied.Yes I found myself in his position and found following Gods Word is much better.
> 
> ...


Where was Ellen when the young black girl (11) who has cerebral palsy, was being mercilessly tormented on the bus, day in and day out. Her father went to the bus driver, the principal and the superintendent, and received ZERO ZERO ZERO solution to the problem.......so the dad boarded the bus one morning and threatened to kick EVERYONE butt if they didn't leave his daughter alone.
He was arrested.
So, tell me, where was Ellen?

Where was Ellen, when the kid in southern Indiana hung himself?

Tell me why Ellen was NOT outraged and speaking out for them?

She may not be 'pushing the gay agenda' but it sure looks sketchy when she only speaks out for someone who is "like her".
Does this make her a racist, because she did not speak up for the black child?
Does this make her a sexist, because she did not stick up for this boy who sexual choice was not mentioned?

You tell me......

And I agree with the underlined statement.
That's why I said "I wish he would have reached out to someone, instead of taking his life". His life had enormous meaning. His life had a specific purpose. And now it's gone. And that is so very sad.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Oggie said:


> Sonja Henie's tutu!
> 
> Talk about someone with an agenda.
> 
> ...


Wow. Amazing.
I apologize that you totally missed what I was saying.
S l o w down and read what I said.......


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

My daughter lived in a dorm. She shared a bedroom with a roommate. We paid for it and they were the only two with keys. Hardly what I'd call public. That's like saying we shouldn't expect privacy in a hotel room. This young man asked his roommate for solo use of the room that night and permission was granted. So yes, he had a reasonable expectation of privacy.

As for being filmed on his own computer, that he left on....again, you must be privy to info the rest of us aren't. I haven't read that anywhere. Seems to me that if someone were trying to get away with secretly filming another person that they would hide the camera.


----------



## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Well he felt bullied enough to contact an online gay message forum for help:

http://blogs.forbes.com/kashmirhill...ay-message-forum-for-help-before-his-suicide/

Gawker reported this:

http://blogs.forbes.com/kashmirhill...ay-message-forum-for-help-before-his-suicide/

From the point of view of a few students (including some from Rutgers), the taping was considered by them to be bullying as it occurred more than once, and the "events" were advertised in such a way as to make fun of and degrade Clementi. Actually from what I have seen of Ravi's posts on the 'net, he bragged about it, and invited people to watch. 

Another 19 year old gay college student took his life this week. Seems to be an epidemic this week of gay students committing suicide.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/raymond-chase-gay-student-commits-suicide-tyler-clementi-2689563.html

And when a student requests that his/her roommate vacate the room so they can have "company" over (whatever the sex may be) - they DO expect privacy. It is a well known "thing" on campus that a student will crash with a friend so their roommate can have privacy and no..it is never a good thing to tape someone doing anything. At any rate, many dorms now have private rooms with shared kitchens, bath and living room - however, freshmen usually don't get those rooms, they have to wait until their second year.

Cyber bullying is just as much a wrong as getting beaten. It is a form of abuse and in today's modern world of tech, it is how kids keep in touch, find out what others are doing, it is their SOCIAL connection. To be "outed" in this manner left Clementi with no choice in the matter. Maybe he was not ready to openly proclaim his sexual orientation, or perhaps he was experimenting and would have gone back to hetero lifestyle. No one will ever know. If people think children do not take what is said about them on the 'net seriously, that is called "hiding one's head in the sand". Children facebook, text, and email constantly and a rumor or video can make it throughout an entire country in the click of a mouse. Parents may pooh pooh this and say it is not important, but to the children of today - social networking IS their life and therefore it is very important to them. 

It was important enough to Clementi that he did something tragic as a result.


----------



## Jenn (Nov 9, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Here's what I gathered FROM ONLY READING THE ARTICLE:
> 
> Male, Freshman, approximate age 18.
> Prestegious College
> ...


When I heard this horrible story and realized all the airplay it's getting I immediately thought "The poor roommate. HE is at very high risk of killing himself as well now!" Kids are thoughtless and stupid. He might even be a bully. But that action- unlike the cyber bully Mom who pretended to be a boy wooing then dumping the girl who suicided- or those who are physically beating a classmate- was less bullying unless the roommate actually knew how this would tear the boy apart, or (and maybe he did this) he broadcasted the kid's name and info to make the video terribly public to all their peers.

In my day I didn't have video to play with. But were I a young man, perhaps jealous of a roommate often 'needing privacy with a date' when I was not dating anyone, and probably angry/ worried/ nervous to suddenly discover that my roommate is gay, I'd be hard pressed to keep it to myself that my roommate was getting privacy for a date with a man instead of for one with a girl.

Anyway I just hope that roommate is getting as much support and forgiveness as I would need were I in his shoes.


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

Jenn said:


> I'd be hard pressed to keep it to myself that my roommate was getting privacy for a date with a man instead of for one with a girl.
> 
> Anyway I just hope that roommate is getting as much support and forgiveness as I would need were I in his shoes.


I agree with the top statement. Doubt even most adults could keep it to themselves. But most people including 18-year-olds would not take it to the level of committing a crime.

As for the second statement, believe it or not I agree with that too. Compassion for the roommate and the young lady was one of my first reactions. I still want to see them prosecuted to the extent of the law. And since it seems that isn't going to be very far, toughening up the law against invasion of privacy might help another kid in the future.


----------



## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

It seems that Clementi did reach out for help - he went to his RA and also to an online message board seeking help. He knew he was being bullied, he requested a change of room mate, etc.

Sad that no one could help him in time.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

deaconjim said:


> Frankly, I don't see much reason for controvery here. A young man had his privacy violated by two of his classmates, and the humiliation drove him to commit suicide. His choice of sexual partners is irrelevant. The two who did this to him need to be punished to the fullest extent the law will allow, if for no other reason but to give others something to think about before they do something like this to another person.


Post of the day award.


----------



## glwalker (Apr 19, 2005)

There seems to be an increasing problem with bullies on college campuses, and I think that the idea that everybody has to go to college is one of the main causes. The colleges are filled with students who don't really want to be there for the right reasons. The students who did the filming are a perfect example of how empty-headed the student body is nowadays. Not to mention the amount of money that it costs to give these sorts the college experience. At one time, bullying ended after high school, and even the high schools were much better institutions before the idea was introduced that everybody has to go there. But today, the colleges are getting just as bad as the high schools.


----------



## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Wow. Amazing.
> I apologize that you totally missed what I was saying.
> S l o w down and read what I said.......




I read what was written, before it was changed:



> Here's what I gathered:
> 
> Male, Freshman, approximate age 18.
> Prestegious College
> ...


(The bolding is mine.)

I don't see how I might read it any other way.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Oggie said:


> I read what was written, before it was changed:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you look at WHY I edited it will say to provide more clarity.
You are not the only one that misread what I meant......so I was the one at fault for not being clear. That's why I added to the OP.


----------



## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

What's sad is that we even need laws to keep people from intentionally hurting others.

The likes of Howard Stern and other shock jocks, various comedians, political pundits, etc. encourage the societal idea that it's ok to humiliate others as long as people get a good laugh out of it. Sickening that our society tolerates this as acceptable. I'd be more embarrassed that I'd raised either of those two insensitive morons than I'd be embarrassed for having a child born with homosexual tendancies.


----------



## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

Jolly said:


> *Life is not easy. It never was. It never will be.*
> 
> While I regret this young man took his own life, it seems we are rapidly turning one of the most resilient species on the face of the planet into quaking mush. Adversity should be met with the will to adapt, learn and overcome.


Yes...well said..I will only add.. _Nor is it suppose to be..._


----------



## Dr. Mom (Jan 13, 2008)

big rockpile said:


> So once again pushing their Abnormal Behaivor whats so special.If Parents and Children had been trying to follow the Word of God they wouldn't have this problem.
> 
> big rockpile


:clap:


----------



## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

JanS said:


> As for following God's word....yep, now that you already had your fun. I'm willing to bet that if you woke up tomorrow morning and were 18 again, you'd be right back out there. *It's easy to drive under the speed limit when there's no gas left in the tank.*


now thats funny -- and true :rotfl:


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

JanS said:


> My daughter lived in a dorm. She shared a bedroom with a roommate. We paid for it and they were the only two with keys. Hardly what I'd call public. That's like saying we shouldn't expect privacy in a hotel room. This young man asked his roommate for solo use of the room that night and permission was granted. So yes, he had a reasonable expectation of privacy.
> 
> As for being filmed on his own computer, that he left on....again, you must be privy to info the rest of us aren't. I haven't read that anywhere. Seems to me that if someone were trying to get away with secretly filming another person that they would hide the camera.


I thought the news said that it was the room mates computer. The room mate turned on the camera on his computer, then went to the girls dorm room and accessed the camera.


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

I thought so too. Just another little tidbit someone invented to try and make the scenario fit their - hmm, what's the correct word here- agenda?


----------



## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

JanS said:


> Pushing the gay agenda....what does that mean exactly? Are they trying to turn everyone gay?
> 
> As for following God's word....yep, now that you already had your fun. I'm willing to bet that if you woke up tomorrow morning and were 18 again, you'd be right back out there. It's easy to drive under the speed limit when there's no gas left in the tank.


I gotta tell you that I've been chuckling about this post since yesterday!

Truer words and all that!


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> We paid for it and *they were the only two with keys*.


That you *know* of.

$2 gets anyone a copy


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That you *know* of.
> 
> $2 gets anyone a copy


And that has what to do with the subject? My point was that it was THEIR room that THEY paid for, and unless someone was doing something illegal, they had the expectation of privacy. Even a person who isn't having homosexual sex  is still changing clothes etc. in their dorm room.


----------



## ajaxlucy (Jul 18, 2004)

JanS said:


> I'm willing to bet that if you woke up tomorrow morning and were 18 again, you'd be right back out there. It's easy to drive under the speed limit when there's no gas left in the tank.


:clap::clap: I love this!!!!


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

JanS said:


> And that has what to do with the subject? *My point was that it was THEIR room that THEY paid for,* and unless someone was doing something illegal, they had the expectation of privacy. Even a person who isn't having homosexual sex  is still changing clothes etc. in their dorm room.


Wrong.
They paid to '*use the space*'.
They do not OWN it, making it THEIR room.
The space belongs to the school.
Every year, students "rent" this space for a fee.
They never 'own' the room.

The lockers at school? Yeah, my taxes "paid for them" but I have NO RIGHT to privacy in those lockers because they do not BELONG TO ME.

The lockers at YMCA......ditto.

The hotel room at the Holiday Inn.....ditto.

You cannot do as you please in RENTED SPACE and not worry about consequences. If one is in the privacy of their own home....fine. It's their home, it's not rented space.

I guess what really floors me is that an 18 year old child told his room mate he wanted privacy and this is "normal" behavior, that one 18 year old would tell another 18 year old to 'stay clear' so they could have sex, with whoever!!!!!! And this is normal? And their parents are paying how many thousands of dollars a year for this????
Please, tell me this is not 'normal'......


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

I didn't read the entire postings so it might have been brought up already. . . 

Also I've been called hard hearted many times before but. . . 

I have to ask this: If the guy had not been homosexual do *YOU* think this would have been a national news story for a week or more?


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

watcher said:


> I didn't read the entire postings so it might have been brought up already. . .
> 
> Also I've been called hard hearted many times before but. . .
> 
> I have to ask this: If the guy had not been homosexual do *YOU* think this would have been a national news story for a week or more?


I think that the reason THIS story was highlighted so much in the media was a combination of the internet being used as a means to harass someone AND because there are at least FOUR other recent cases of teens committing suicide recently due to sexual orientation issues....


----------



## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Phoebesmum said:


> I think that the reason THIS story was highlighted so much in the media was a combination of the internet being used as a means to harass someone AND because there are at least FOUR other recent cases of teens committing suicide recently due to sexual orientation issues....


Yeah, I think so too.

The whole situation makes me so darn angry!


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's a man in jail right now because he filmed sports anchor Erin Andrews as she changed in her hotel room. She WAS legally entitled to privacy or he'd be free right now. The same as my daughter was entitled to the privacy of changing (or having sex) in her dorm room. 

I am really hoping this case goes to trial so I can hear the attorneys tearing ridiculous arguments like this down point by point.


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I guess what really floors me is that an 18 year old child told his room mate he wanted privacy and this is "normal" behavior, that one 18 year old would tell another 18 year old to 'stay clear' so they could have sex, with whoever!!!!!! And this is normal? And their parents are paying how many thousands of dollars a year for this????
> Please, tell me this is not 'normal'......


If by normal you mean most college students are doing it....yes, it is. You can't look at pregnancy rates, STD rates, television, movies, listen to their music, see the way they dress, and believe that most 18-year-olds are not having sex.


----------



## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

JanS said:


> There's a man in jail right now because he filmed sports anchor Erin Andrews as she changed in her hotel room. She WAS legally entitled to privacy or he'd be free right now. The same as my daughter was entitled to the privacy of changing (or having sex) in her dorm room.
> 
> I am really hoping this case goes to trial so I can hear the attorneys tearing ridiculous arguments like this down point by point.


It's sort of like saying that your landlord can legally tape you in an apartment that you rented from him.


----------



## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

Oggie said:


> It's sort of like saying that your landlord can legally tape you in an apartment that you rented from him.


Just make sure that your landlord isn't a certain poster on here from Zone 5 and you should be safe. I would hope.:run:


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

I'll agree this was a tragedy, it's sad when one so young (or anyone for that matter) decides to kill themselves.
I find it a little disgusting that Ellen seized this incident to further her cause.
If bullying really bothered her, she would have been on the case a long time ago.
In my opinion, if this kid had been straight, she'd never batted an eye.
I usually have some respect for Ellen, but this struck me as a publicity stunt and a tragedy exploited.


----------



## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

Cornhusker said:


> I usually have some respect for Ellen, but this struck me as a publicity stunt and a tragedy exploited.


A publicity stunt, are you serious? You don't think she might actually care about these kids who killed themselves? Maybe she even has special empathy for people LIKE HER? Wow, how shocking!


----------



## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

I'm sure she cared to a certain extent; but to be blunt, even I myself have wondered how much she'd be concerned about the situation/story if it were simply two heterosexual people. :shrug:


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

JanS said:


> There's a man in jail right now because he filmed sports anchor Erin Andrews as she changed in her hotel room. She WAS legally entitled to privacy or he'd be free right now. The same as my daughter was entitled to the privacy of changing (or having sex) in her dorm room.
> 
> I am really hoping this case goes to trial so I can hear the attorneys tearing ridiculous arguments like this down point by point.


Ok, maybe I was not clear on my point.
The dorm room doesn't belong to the children. It is rented space.
Should someone be allowed to film them doing anything, then distribute it on line? Heck no.

My point is this.
There is NO such thing, as real privacy, unless you are on your OWN property, in your OWN home......so before you 'do anything' think about it.
No one in this story "thought".
18 year old having sex when he should be studying or anything...he's at school for God's sake.
Room mates / class mates / strangers filming him while he had sex.
Then distributing it on line.
NO ONE in this story "thought".
They all, acted, on feelings.......

Dorm rooms, hotel rooms, lockers, rental cars.....they are all 'rented'.

I hope I explained better.


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

I do understand what you're saying but still think you're wrong. 

The boy could have taken his roommate home for Thanksgiving break and been filmed there. It's utterly irrelevant to the crime that was committed. You are treating this as a moral issue when it is a criminal issue. Where it happened, whether or not teenagers should be having sex....none of that matters, because two young people hid a camera, filmed someone having sex, and broadcast it on the internet. They did something illegal. The other young person did not.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

JanS said:


> I do understand what you're saying but still think you're wrong.
> 
> The boy could have taken his roommate home for Thanksgiving break and been filmed there. It's utterly irrelevant to the crime that was committed. You are treating this as a moral issue when it is a criminal issue.


It is a moral issue.
A gross, lack there of.....and if this happens in college dorms all over, I am totally horrified.



> Where it happened, whether or not teenagers should be having sex....none of that matters


If it is normal for 18 year olds to have sex with whomever/whatever in their college dorm rooms......then maybe someone should spend a moment explaining to them that they are placing themselves at risk for not only an STD / Unwanted pregnancy.........but because phones, computers, lipstick cams, go pro cams, and whatever else is out there can be set up and they can be exposed.......and to use their stupid heads and think a little before they act on their 'feelings'.......

I am just flabbergasted that parents spend the kind of money they spend and they are totally ok with their kids gettin' it on......on their dime.
I knew there was drinking, and that's bad......
But I had no idea this kind of behavior was 'normal'.

,


> because two young people hid a camera, filmed someone having sex, and broadcast it on the internet. They did something illegal. The other young person did not.


I totally agree with you here.
The kids that filmed this boy should be procuted for everything under the sun.....including manslaughter. 
Their LACK OF THINKING was the catalist for this young man's suicide.
However, the young man filmed having sex, was not THINKING either.

It's a sad sad story.
And it's an eye opener for me.
I simply didn't realize that college dorms were little Sodom and Gamorrahs, and that is 'normal'......

Jan, thank your for your patience in this conversation....


----------



## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

This is a silly debate. A rented room is just like a rented home, and is not a public space. The guy's roommate agreed to give him privacy, but even if he didn't it was wrong to film him and broadcast it on the internet. This is clearly a case where the Golden Rule should have been followed.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Wrong.
> They paid to '*use the space*'.
> They do not OWN it, making it THEIR room.
> The space belongs to the school.
> ...


Sorry, gonna disagree with you here. You are suppose to be able to have privacy in rented spaces. If it were a heterosexual relationship, would you still feel this way? Throughout time college students have asked their roomies to give them some privacy, I'm sure that not too many parents are surprised by this. Is it Godly behavior? No, but that doesn't change the fact that it happens, this time it happened to be a homosexual, but it happens with the heterosexuals too.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

watcher said:


> I didn't read the entire postings so it might have been brought up already. . .
> 
> Also I've been called hard hearted many times before but. . .
> 
> I have to ask this: If the guy had not been homosexual do *YOU* think this would have been a national news story for a week or more?


Yes, because cyber bullying is happening more and more and we're hearing more and more about kids that are committing suicide because of it.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

SunsetSonata said:


> A publicity stunt, are you serious? You don't think she might actually care about these kids who killed themselves? Maybe she even has special empathy for people LIKE HER? Wow, how shocking!


Or she may just feel like since she herself is a well known lesbian that with her star power she could wake some people up to what is going on. I really don't care what her reasons are for talking about it, I'm glad she is. Someone needs to speak out against all the bullying that is being done that is pushing these kids over the edge.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> Sorry, gonna disagree with you here. You are suppose to be able to have privacy in rented spaces. If it were a heterosexual relationship, would you still feel this way? Throughout time college students have asked their roomies to give them some privacy, I'm sure that not too many parents are surprised by this. Is it Godly behavior? No, but that doesn't change the fact that it happens, this time it happened to be a homosexual, but it happens with the heterosexuals too.


*deep sigh*

Filming someone without their knowledge is wrong.
Those kids that filmed this child, and broadcast it, should be procecuted.
It is a tragedy this child killed himself.

Ok. Clear.

I am saying unless you are in the privacy of your own home.....USE YOUR BRAIN when you are in a 'rented' space.
Be that a hotel room, a locker, a dorm, a car.......where ever.
USE YOUR BRAIN!!

oy vey


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Ok, maybe I was not clear on my point.
> The dorm room doesn't belong to the children. It is rented space.
> Should someone be allowed to film them doing anything, then distribute it on line? Heck no.
> 
> ...


Not really, I expect privacy when I stay at a hotel. I sure don't expect to be filmed. As for studying, do you think the kids study 24/7??


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

I find that it's sad that most of the people on here who are Christian's are forgetting that a child is dead here. Regardless of the fact that he was having gay sex. He was still a human being. Wasn't it Jesus who said, "Let him without sin cast the first stone"? Do you think one sin is worse than another? Sin is sin and none of us is without sin. It's so sad to see so many Christians who decided to judge this young man instead of hurting because he took his own life. Do I think homosexuality is wrong? Yes, I believe the Bible is pretty clear in regards to that. BUT, the part of this story that affects me the most is not that a young man was involved in homosexuality, but that he felt there was no hope for a tomorrow.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

SunsetSonata said:


> A publicity stunt, are you serious? You don't think she might actually care about these kids who killed themselves? Maybe she even has special empathy for people LIKE HER? Wow, how shocking!


Oh, I think she probably cares, and I'd hate to think she's exploiting a tragedy to push her own agenda.
At least maybe she's doing some good now that she noticed bullying is all of a sudden happening in this country.
I'm not sure what she's hoping to accomplish though?


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

Laura, I don't know how old you are but surely you have heard of the '60s, hippies, Woodstock and free love? And knew a lot of those young people were college students or at least that age? You can't really think the young people of today - their grandchildren - are going to be more reserved.


----------



## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Sorry to say, sex happens in college be it in their own room, a roomie's room, the car, a closet..yep it happens. The point is: NO ONE IS SUPPOSED TO FILM IT without permission of both parties..it is against the law. 

As far as STD's go, etc. the college age kids are drilled and drilled about condom use, AIDS, etc. Most (not all I am sure, but the majority do) practice safe sex because they know now that there is stuff out there that will KILL them, unlike the free love of the hippie era, when syphillis was the worst thing that could happen.

All that changed with the advent of AIDS..and now the kids get free condoms in school, can go to free clinics to be tested, etc. Most are very aware of what can happen. (some will be careless regardless).

This is the age of the "hook-up" and there are many kids that know that they do not want the responsibility of a marriage and kids, etc. so choose to 'hook-up" just for sex.


----------



## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Sonshine said:


> What many don't understand about Conservative Christians is that although we don't agree with the lifestyle, we don't hate the person who chooses it. When we see someone like Rosie O'Donnel that is in your face about it, that's when I have a problem with it. I've always liked Ellen, as one poster stated, she's a classy lady, and I have a lot of respect for her, regardless of her sexual orientation.


Asking for respect and demanding it are so different.
But the bullying stuff goes both ways.
Ya,Ellen is an Ok person.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

SquashNut said:


> Asking for respect and demanding it are so different.
> *But the bullying stuff goes both ways.*
> Ya,Ellen is an Ok person.


Agreed.


----------



## George in NH (Jun 24, 2002)

Maybe Ellen spoke up because she has a platform and can make more people aware of the problem. To question why a gay person would speak up makes as much sense as asking why someone who is familiar with mental health issues would speak up for those with mental health issues, or why a person of color would speak up for other people of color. People with a platform speak up because they know they're in a position to bring problems that hit home with them out into the open. Maybe Ellen's motive was to make you, me and us aware of the problem? Maybe she spoke up because so many young people have committed suicide in the past few weeks and those people shared something in common with her?


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> for a fee.
> They never 'own' the room.
> 
> The lockers at school? Yeah, my taxes "paid for them" but I have NO RIGHT to privacy in those lockers because they do not BELONG TO ME.
> ...


Sorry but this is so much baloney. When you RENT an apartment or house, you HAVE THE RIGHT TO PRIVACY, you can have sex in that apartment, you can undress, etc. Or are you saying its ok for the owner of the house to put webcams in your apartment, in the shower rooms at the YMCA, bathrooms, etc???

Renting a place IS home. And you do have rights to privacy in rented space.


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Oggie said:


> It's sort of like saying that your landlord can legally tape you in an apartment that you rented from him.


In some cases they can as long as only record video. States are slowly changing the laws but a lot of them still have laws which only cover audio recording. I can't find the case right now but there was on a few years ago where a man had installed cameras in a house he was renting. Once he was caught it was discovered he had not broken any law.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

George in NH said:


> Maybe Ellen spoke up because she has a platform and can make more people aware of the problem. To question why a gay person would speak up makes as much sense as asking why someone who is familiar with mental health issues would speak up for those with mental health issues, or why a person of color would speak up for other people of color. People with a platform speak up because they know they're in a position to bring problems that hit home with them out into the open. Maybe Ellen's motive was to make you, me and us aware of the problem? Maybe she spoke up because so many young people have committed suicide in the past few weeks and those people shared something in common with her?


Maybe
I'm not doubting her good intentions, but I question her motives if that makes sense.


----------



## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

George in NH said:


> Maybe Ellen spoke up because she has a platform and can make more people aware of the problem. To question why a gay person would speak up makes as much sense as asking why someone who is familiar with mental health issues would speak up for those with mental health issues, or why a person of color would speak up for other people of color. People with a platform speak up because they know they're in a position to bring problems that hit home with them out into the open. Maybe Ellen's motive was to make you, me and us aware of the problem? Maybe she spoke up because so many young people have committed suicide in the past few weeks and those people shared something in common with her?


I'm sad to find that this even needs explaining, but kudos to you for explaining it well. I just thought it was common sense.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> I find that it's sad that most of the people on here who are Christian's are forgetting that a child is dead here. Regardless of the fact that he was having gay sex. He was still a human being. Wasn't it Jesus who said, "Let him without sin cast the first stone"? Do you think one sin is worse than another? Sin is sin and none of us is without sin. It's so sad to see so many Christians who decided to judge this young man instead of hurting because he took his own life. Do I think homosexuality is wrong? Yes, I believe the Bible is pretty clear in regards to that. BUT, the part of this story that affects me the most is not that a young man was involved in homosexuality, but that he felt there was no hope for a tomorrow.


Post of the day award.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> I find that it's sad that most of the people on here *who are Christian's* are forgetting that a child is dead here. Regardless of the fact that he was having gay sex. He was still a human being. Wasn't it Jesus who said, "Let him without sin cast the first stone"? Do you think one sin is worse than another? Sin is sin and none of us is without sin. It's so sad to see so *many Christians who decided to judge* this young man instead of hurting because he took his own life. Do I think homosexuality is wrong? Yes, I believe the Bible is pretty clear in regards to that. BUT, the part of this story that affects me the most is not that a young man was involved in homosexuality, but that he felt there was no hope for a tomorrow.



Who are the Christians? Can you show me where on the page it clearly proclaims their 'christianess'.

Can you show me ONE entry that CLEARLY states, that the poster has ZERO sympathy for the situation SIMPLY because the child was having homosexual sex?

Can you show me one entry where the poster said "This young man / child has lost his eternal salvation because of this act"?

{{ Because, "judging" and "Judging" are clearly two very very very different things. (This is where you need to know the Greek) }}

Because this entry is pretty high up on the "high and mighty scale".

I can't find ONE entry where anyone said they were glad the child was dead, he deserved to be dead, or that he was going to hades. Can't find one entry.......

So help me find the entries that you speak of when you issued this "Holy Reprimand".


----------



## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

I agree; although I would say that extends to both sides; often times the actual issues get lost in our eagerness to fuss and argue about something.

Ahem...



Laura Zone 5 said:


> Who are the Christians? Can you show me where on the page it clearly proclaims their 'christianess'.
> 
> Can you show me ONE entry that CLEARLY states, that the poster has ZERO sympathy for the situation SIMPLY because the child was having homosexual sex?
> 
> ...


I *THINK* she was attempting to point out that most of us, including Christians, are more interested in pointing out "Homosexuality is wrong!" than we are in expressing sorrow that someone's life has been taken. And I know well the difference between judgment and passing judgment, as I call it.


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

Cornhusker said:


> Maybe
> I'm not doubting her good intentions, but I question her motives if that makes sense.


What do you think her motives are???


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

George in NH said:


> Maybe Ellen spoke up because she has a platform and can make more people aware of the problem. To question why a gay person would speak up makes as much sense as asking why someone who is familiar with mental health issues would speak up for those with mental health issues, or why a person of color would speak up for other people of color. People with a platform speak up because they know they're in a position to bring problems that hit home with them out into the open. Maybe Ellen's motive was to make you, me and us aware of the problem? Maybe she spoke up because so many young people have committed suicide in the past few weeks and those people shared something in common with her?


Excellent excellent post. Thank you.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Kung said:


> I agree; although I would say that extends to both sides; often times the actual issues get lost in our eagerness to fuss and argue about something.
> 
> Ahem...
> 
> ...


I was wondering which entries she was referring too? I can't find any really, that straight up say "he's gay, he deserved it ,glad he's dead".
It is a slippery slope when one throws around a verse or two, and uses it like an all purpose blanket.
We are to make 'right judgements'......use discernment with the Word, and the Spirit to make 'good judgements".
We are not to Judge. Take the seat of Christ and say "yes, you are going to heaven, no, you are not.....yes, you are a Believer, no you are not".....

I can't find an entry where someone condemned this child to eternal death.
I was just hoping that Sonshine could point those entries out to me......because based upon her entry, she has seen something, that I have missed?
Could it have been the one entry that was erased?


----------



## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

No, because I erased that one.

Yes, I agree we're to make right judgments...but not at the expense of Christian love...and I think you know we often do this. And I am chief amongst them, I'm sure.

Again....she's trying to point out that most of us, including Christians, are more interested in pointing out "Homosexuality is wrong!" (*NOT* that they're glad he's dead) than we are in expressing sorrow that someone's life has been taken. The truth can be upheld while showing compassion.


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

Laura, you are probably not the only person here at HT who uses "judge" to mean "judge whether or not a person will go to heaven". But you're the only person I remember consistently posting it. So....we can assume that when Sonshine uses the word "judge", he or she isn't talking about someone's eternal salvation. We can assume that about 99% of the people who post here.

Here is an example of "judgment" in the sense that most people understand it:

"If Parents and Children had been trying to follow the Word of God they wouldn't have this problem."

So judging is going on in this thread. Probably on both sides of the issue.

Your little nitpicky arguments about the meaning of a word or whether or not it's OK to have sex in a hotel room realllly take away from any points you try to make. I'm ashamed I allowed myself to get caught up in it and sure won't let that happen again.


----------



## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

I would like to point something out, though.

I DON'T take issue with someone expressing their viewpoint that homosexuality is wrong; I believe it is. We ARE told to wear our flameproof undies here.  

I simply take issue with a lack of expression of compassion for the victims here...and with each other. We can express viewpoints all we want. We DO need to exercise compassion and courtesy, though.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Kung said:


> No, because I erased that one.
> 
> Yes, I agree we're to make right judgments...but not at the expense of Christian love...and I think you know we often do this. And I am chief amongst them, I'm sure.
> 
> Again....she's trying to point out that most of us, including Christians, are more interested in pointing out "Homosexuality is wrong!" (*NOT* that they're glad he's dead) than we are in expressing sorrow that someone's life has been taken. The truth can be upheld while showing compassion.


That explains it then! I didn't see the one you erased.....and I couldn't find anyone else who was exhibiting the behavior she was discussing! That makes sense now!
Thanks for clearing that up!


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

JanS said:


> Laura, you are probably not the only person here at HT who uses "judge" to mean "judge whether or not a person will go to heaven". But you're the only person I remember consistently posting it. So....we can assume that when Sonshine uses the word "judge", he or she isn't talking about someone's eternal salvation. We can assume that about 99% of the people who post here.
> 
> Here is an example of "judgment" in the sense that most people understand it:
> 
> ...


I am sorry....I thought you and I were having an adult discussion? I didn't realize you thought I was being "nit-picky"??


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Who are the Christians? Can you show me where on the page it clearly proclaims their 'christianess'.
> 
> Can you show me ONE entry that CLEARLY states, that the poster has ZERO sympathy for the situation SIMPLY because the child was having homosexual sex?
> 
> ...


Sorry hun, but you need to get a grip. No, I haven't seen anyone in this particular thread proclaim they are Christians, but have seen it in other threads. But I DO find it sad that so many seem more concerned about the fact that he was gay than the fact that he is dead. That, my dear, is MY opinion. If you think I'm acting "high and mighty" because of that, then that's your perogative.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Kung said:


> I would like to point something out, though.
> 
> I DON'T take issue with someone expressing their viewpoint that homosexuality is wrong; I believe it is. We ARE told to wear our flameproof undies here.
> 
> I simply take issue with a lack of expression of compassion for the victims here...and with each other. We can express viewpoints all we want. We DO need to exercise compassion and courtesy, though.


I believe I did state that my understanding of the scriptures shows that homosexuality is wrong. I just think that Christians (and I am in that group) need to look at the entire picture, and in this case the most pressing issue would be the death of this child.


----------



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Ok my Mom called me in 1970 devastated because she had just found out my Brother was Gay.

Years later after her marriage went sour I think she started having sexual relations with women. Plus my Sister turned Lesbian after two failed marriages.

My Mom tried for years to change my thoughts on Homosexuality but like I always told her I considers it abnormal behavior. She also had problems with my relationship with my Hevenly Father.

Both my Mom and Sister are gone now,did I love them? Yes, Did I agree with their life? No.

How will our He enly Father judge them? I don't know.

big rockpile


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

big rockpile said:


> Ok my Mom called me in 1970 devastated because she had just found out my Brother was Gay.
> 
> Years later after her marriage went sour I think she started having sexual relations with women. Plus my Sister turned Lesbian after two failed marriages.
> 
> ...


Well, this "abnormal" behavior is seen in many, many, many animal groups as well....more and more we are finding the range of "normal" sexual behavior is very wide and varied among humans and animals alike. What you are talking about is the social construction that heterosexuality is the norm...not the reality of what biology shows us.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Well, this "abnormal" behavior is seen in many, many, many animal groups as well....


LOL NO it's not.
But feel free to show some* data *proving there are animals that* prefer *having sex with their own gender.


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> LOL NO it's not.
> But feel free to show some* data *proving there are animals that* prefer *having sex with their own gender.


There is a TON of evidence of this--here is one example:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090616122106.html

Animals range from those that mate with same sex only when males are scarce to those who mate with same sex cause they can't tell the difference to those who mate out of desire---Bonobos being one example.


----------



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Phoebesmum said:


> Well, this "abnormal" behavior is seen in many, many, many animal groups as well....more and more we are finding the range of "normal" sexual behavior is very wide and varied among humans and animals alike. What you are talking about is the social construction that heterosexuality is the norm...not the reality of what biology shows us.


Well as humans we know this is wrong just as suicied is God has distroyed cities because mainly because of this behaivior but it also says there will be this behaior in end times so no I'm not surpised or your thoughts on it.

big rockpile


----------



## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> So for starters:
> A) I would not be having sex in a public place to start with.
> B) I would not be having **** sexual sex, ever.
> C) This was not HIS bedroom....it is a PUBLIC DORM......THAT HE SHARED with another PAYING STUDENT.
> D) I do not leave my computers ON, unattended.


I have have had sex in public places, had sex in a dorm, and often leave my computer unattended. What's the point? If I get caught I deserve to be humiliated on the internet?


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

big rockpile said:


> Well as humans we know this is wrong just as suicied is God has distroyed cities because mainly because of this behaivior but it also says there will be this behaior in end times so no I'm not surpised or your thoughts on it.
> 
> big rockpile


Not just my thought but the thoughts of an ever growing number of educated people.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

shanzone2001 said:


> I have have had sex in public places, had sex in a dorm, and often leave my computer unattended. *What's the point?* If I get caught I deserve to be humiliated on the internet?


The point is, think.
Think with your brain before you act on your 'feelings or emotions'.
My whole point is that we should think.....before we act...

That was my whole point.
If you read the whole post that you quoted, you would see that I think it's a TRAGEDY that this child killed himself.
Tragedy.
That I think those kids who DIDN'T THINK of the consequences, before they recorded that child having sex, should be prosecuted.

Think.
That's all I am saying.
Everyone should THINK before they act.....


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> The point is, think.
> Think with your brain before you act on your 'feelings or emotions'.
> My whole point is that we should think.....before we act...
> 
> ...


And I would say that this person DID think--he thought ahead of time enough to ask for privacy and make sure that people were not subjected to his sex acts that should not see them. The people who chose to post the sex act on the web seem to be the unthinking ones to me.


----------



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Phoebesmum said:


> Not just my thought but the thoughts of an ever growing number of educated people.


Well if they would educate theirselves in the only thing that counts they would find how terably wrong they are but I'm sorry to say they will find out in a very short time I will Pray for you and them.

big rockpile


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Phoebesmum said:


> What do you think her motives are???


I have no idea, but she didn't care about this one way or another until the gay kid killed himself.
Anybody else didn't matter to her, at least not enough to say anything.
If this had been a girl having sex with some guy, you people would have called her a ----, or a straight guy you would have said he's some rich kid wasting time at college partying, but since it's a gay kid, it suddenly matters.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Sonshine said:


> Sorry hun, but you need to get a grip. No, I haven't seen anyone in this particular thread proclaim they are Christians, but have seen it in other threads. But I DO find it sad that so many seem more concerned about the fact that he was gay than the fact that he is dead. That, my dear, is MY opinion. If you think I'm acting "high and mighty" because of that, then that's your perogative.


I would like to publically apologize for the tone of this post. I meant no offense in the wording of it and hope that Laura will forgive me.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Phoebesmum said:


> There is a TON of evidence of this--here is one example:
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090616122106.html
> 
> Animals range from those that mate with same sex only when males are scarce to those who mate with same sex cause they can't tell the difference to those who mate out of desire---Bonobos being one example.


Animals poop in the yard and eat it, but that doesn't mean we have to do it.
What I mean to say is that we are not animals, so you saying animals do it so it's ok for people to do it is a bit ........strange.


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

Cornhusker said:


> Animals poop in the yard and eat it, but that doesn't mean we have to do it.
> What I mean to say is that we are not animals, so you saying animals do it so it's ok for people to do it is a bit ........strange.


My point is that homosexual behaviors are NOT chosen but are genetic/inborn and therefore discrimination based on sexal orientation is simply due to a social construction of heteronormativity NOT due to reality.


----------



## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Phoebesmum said:


> And I would say that this person DID think--he thought ahead of time enough to ask for privacy and make sure that people were not subjected to his sex acts that should not see them. The people who chose to post the sex act on the web seem to be the unthinking ones to me.


Well said, PM. 
Laura, I do understand what you are saying and I understand that people (myself included) do things without thinking...all the time. 
There are obviously consequences for illegal behavior, but moral behavior is subjective. His actions may be considered morally wrong by some, but he was by no means breaking the law.
What do you think should have happened to him as a consequence? Did he really "deserve" a consequence? Isn't that between him and God whether or not his behavior was immoral????


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

big rockpile said:


> Well if they would educate theirselves in the only thing that counts they would find how terably wrong they are but I'm sorry to say they will find out in a very short time I will Pray for you and them.
> 
> big rockpile


We will have to agree to disagree on this. And please do not pray for me--my thought on pray is that unless I ASK a person to pray for me, it really is not appropriate for another person to feel they should do so...at least don't announce it, if you feel the need...


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

So this is your evidence?:



> Help Page
> The page you are looking for may have moved or is currently under construction. You can start at our home page or use our search engine to look for a recent science news story. Just type in a keyword in the field below and press the Search button.


Not too convincing


> Bonobos being one example.


A Bonobo would mate with a garbage can.
You're trying to anthropomorphize OTHER behaviors to "prove" a sexual PREFERENCE, but it's not working

Here is some REAL evidence:



> In 1996, homosexual scientist Simon LeVay admitted that *the evidence pointed to isolated acts, not to homosexuality: *
> Although homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world, it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity.[11]



http://www.narth.com/docs/animalmyth.html


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> So this is your evidence?:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't know why that other link is down--but here's another http://www.livescience.com/animals/080516-gay-animals.html. Also, just FYI--YOU can find this info too--very easy to find.

And there is nothing anthropomohizing about pointing out that homosexual behavior occurs in many animal species--it is pointing out that nature is not male plus female only.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

It is a known fact that animals are sometimes homosexual. The percentage is much lower in other animals than in humans. Humans, many times, try to hide the fact. Animals do not have any reason to hide the fact. In humans the trait is passed along by those who hide the fact. In other animals it isn't that common because the trait isn't passed on that much.

It is very common in birds. Many years ago several goose farmers were put out of business because of homosexuality in a certain bloodline.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> And there is *nothing anthropomohizing about pointing out that homosexual behavior *occurs in many animal species--it is pointing out that nature is not male plus female only


.

It's NOT "homosexual behavior"
They go through some MOTIONS, and you falsely give them HUMAN attributes


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> .
> 
> It's NOT "homosexual behavior"
> They go through some MOTIONS, and you falsely give them HUMAN attributes


Well, we can agree to disagree...those "motions" are same-sex sexual behavior...what humans refer to as homosexual behavior.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> homosexuality in a certain bloodline.


LOL There are no *homosexual* bloodlines.

It's just one more* unsubstantiated *claim


----------



## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

My buck regularly mounts his plastic igloo. Does that mean he is sexually attracted to it? Of course not. It is the same thing as when he mounts the other male goats.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Well, we can agree to disagree...those "motions" are same-sex *sexual behavior.*..what humans refer to as homosexual behavior.


NO You INTERPRET the motions as being "sexual" when most often they are NOT.
You still haven't show any evidence of a PREFERENCE for the same gender in animals, which is what I asked you to show

Maybe you missed this the first time:
Here is some REAL evidence:




> In 1996, homosexual scientist Simon LeVay admitted that the evidence pointed to isolated acts, not to homosexuality:
> Although homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world, it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity.[11]



http://www.narth.com/docs/animalmyth.html


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> NO You INTERPRET the motions as being "sexual" when most often they are NOT.
> You still haven't show any evidence of a PREFERENCE for the same gender in animals, which is what I asked you to show
> 
> Maybe you missed this the first time:
> ...


Well, if you bothered to open the link I included, you would see other opinions on the matter--but honestly none of this matters and is pointless in discussing with you--I will not change my opinion and you are clearly set on yours.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Phoebesmum said:


> Don't know why that other link is down--but here's another http://www.livescience.com/animals/080516-gay-animals.html. Also, just FYI--YOU can find this info too--very easy to find.
> 
> And there is nothing anthropomohizing about pointing out that homosexual behavior occurs in many animal species--it is pointing out that nature is not male plus female only.


"Natural" is not always "normal", but that's not what this thread is about.


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

Cornhusker said:


> "Natural" is not always "normal", but that's not what this thread is about.


"Normal" is a human concoction...natural is a biological reality.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Well, if you bothered to open the link I included, you would see other *opinions *on the matter--


I read it. It's was mostly a reporter's* opinion*

Just because you think it's "natural " behavior doesn't mean it should be ACCEPTED as "normal" HUMAN behavior.

Many animals eat their own young.
With lions, it's perfectly "natural" for the males to kill the cubs.
Wolves routinely dominate the subordinates

That doesn't mean it's "normal" behavior for humans. 
IF you want to accept one type of behavior, logically you'd have to accept all the others, since all are "natural".


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I read it. It's was mostly a reporter's* opinion*
> 
> Just because you think it's "natural " behavior doesn't mean it should be ACCEPTED as "normal" HUMAN behavior.
> 
> ...


Let me ask you this...what about homosexuality is so threatening to you that you feel the need to label it as abnormal or unnatural? How does homosexuality affect you in any way? Are you being hit on by a bunch a gay men? Are homosexuals threatening to take away your legal rights somehow? Do lesbians threaten to take over and leave straight men with no women to date/marry?? I never understand why people will use religious arguements as reasons for continuing discrimination when this country's founding concepts were on freedom of religion...my religious/spiritual belief is that God knows love and when a man truly loves another man or a woman truly loves another woman or a man truly loves a woman then God sees that and couldn't care less that two penises or two vaginas or a penis and a vagina are involved. As long as the people are consenting adults, then who are you to judge?


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I read it. It's was mostly a reporter's* opinion*
> 
> Just because you think it's "natural " behavior doesn't mean it should be ACCEPTED as "normal" HUMAN behavior.
> 
> ...


I DO accept that for lions it is natural for a new lion to come in and kill the cubs. I DO accept that wolves dominant subordinates. I DO accept that some animals eat their own young. What is your point?? None of those things are natural for humans! Homosexuality is natural for humans, dolphins, chimps, penguins, etc, etc, etc.....


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I read it. It's was mostly a reporter's* opinion*
> 
> Just because you think it's "natural " behavior doesn't mean it should be ACCEPTED as "normal" HUMAN behavior.
> 
> ...


The author cites THREE researchers in a one page article--dismiss the opinion if you like but there are still THREE scientists cited.


----------



## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> The point is, think.
> Think with your brain before you act on your 'feelings or emotions'.
> My whole point is that we should think.....before we act...
> 
> ...


Are you kidding? I'm at the age if I think about it to long then I may as well forget it!


----------



## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

The last time someone thought before they posted in General Chat was in early spring 2005.


That poster was quickly banned and the entire thread was deleted.


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

oggie said:


> the last time someone thought before they posted in general chat was in early spring 2005.
> 
> 
> That poster was quickly banned and the entire thread was deleted.


roflmao!!!


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Phoebesmum said:


> "Normal" is a human concoction...natural is a biological reality.


It's also a reality that there are abnormalities in nature.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> *None of those things are natural for humans*! Homosexuality is natural for humans, dolphins, chimps, penguins, etc, etc, etc.....


Sure they are.

Bullying is "natural" because people DO it 
Killing is "natural" because people DO it.

That's the *same logic *you're trying to use.

You can't just pick the behaviors YOU personally happen to approve of if you accept that logic

Society as a WHOLE doesn't approve of homosexuality.
Personally, I don't care one way or the other as long as people don't MAKE an issue of it


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Society as a WHOLE doesn't approve of homosexuality.


Your turn to show some data.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

shanzone2001 said:


> Well said, PM.
> Laura, I do understand what you are saying and I understand that people (myself included) do things without thinking...all the time.
> There are obviously consequences for illegal behavior, but moral behavior is subjective. His actions may be considered morally wrong by some, but he was by no means breaking the law.


This is an honest, and serious question.
In the state, where this occurred, is it illegal to do what his roomates/classmates did?
I hope it is....but I don't know what the laws on the books say?




> What do you think should have happened to him as a consequence? Did he really "deserve" a consequence? Isn't that between him and God whether or not his behavior was immoral????


For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
There are consequences to every choice.

Yes, Judgement for homosexual behavior is between the person, and God, ultimately.
That is very true.

What was done to this child,(spying/recording/distributing his act) was just plain, wrong. On all levels. I hope it's illegal, and I hope the two that did it are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law....
Those who did this to him, had no right to do what they did. For whatever reason they did it. I don't know how much clearer I can be.
This young man, was a human being.
A human being that was uniquely and wonderfully Created with a purpose.

No one chose to THINK before they did anything.
Those who filmed / recorded / distributed his act, did not think about the ramifications of their actions.
The young man that killed himself, didn't stop to think of all his potential, all of his purpose, all of his worth, before he committed suicide.

Everyone in this story acted on feelings....emotions.....

Everyone in this story, obviously were 'educated' people. This is a very prestigious school, that requires very high grades to get in. They had to be very 'educated' to get in......so we are not dealing with 'uneducated' people.

But this story reveals that even the most educated, makes fatal errors when they are ruled, and driven by emotions, and not logical thinking.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Oggie said:


> The last time someone thought before they posted in General Chat was in early spring 2005.
> 
> 
> That poster was quickly banned and the entire thread was deleted.


I am totally finding this out!


----------



## Emmy D (Sep 7, 2009)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> What was done to this child,(spying/recording/distributing his act) was just plain, wrong.


You keep calling him a CHILD, yet men and women his age vote, go to war, get married, have babies, etc., he was NOT a CHILD he was a man!

Emmy


----------



## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

Emmy D said:


> You keep calling him a CHILD, yet men and women his age vote, go to war, get married, have babies, etc., he was NOT a CHILD he was a man!
> 
> Emmy


Okay, what was done to this man,(spying/recording/distributing his act) was just plain, wrong.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Emmy D said:


> You keep calling him a CHILD, yet men and women his age vote, go to war, get married, have babies, etc., he was NOT a CHILD he was a man!
> 
> Emmy


You and I have different opinions on what qualifies a male as a "man".
You can get married and make a baby (not always in that order) when you are 15. 
I do not believe that at 18, you magically have the wisdom, knowledge, and life experience to be called a 'man'.

THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS......and I am sure that there are many men on this board, who were "men" when they were 18.
But on the whole, it is MHO that 'most' males in the United States today, that are 18 years of age, are NOT men.

We just have a difference of opinion.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Emmy D said:


> You keep calling him a CHILD, yet men and women his age vote, go to war, get married, have babies, etc., he was NOT a CHILD he was a man!
> 
> Emmy


LOL Kids I taught in children's church, who are now grown with families of their own are still kids to me. I don't mean to disrepect him by saying he was a child, but to me, 18 is still a child. I was having babies when I was 17, and buried 3 by the time I was 19, but I was still a child back then.


----------



## Emmy D (Sep 7, 2009)

I wasn't talking to D. Jim or Sonshine, it is Laura who just keeps pushing this "CHILD" point. Sorry if I offended anyone!

Laura, in WHAT state can you get MARRIED at TWELVE years old??? 

Sorry,
Emmy


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Emmy D said:


> I wasn't talking to D. Jim or Sonshine, it is Laura who just keeps pushing this "CHILD" point. Sorry if I offended anyone!
> 
> Laura, in WHAT state can you get MARRIED at TWELVE years old???
> 
> ...


Sorry pushed the wrong key.
I meant to say 15.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Emmy D said:


> I wasn't talking to D. Jim or Sonshine, it is Laura who just keeps pushing this "CHILD" point. Sorry if I offended anyone!
> 
> Laura, in WHAT state can you get MARRIED at TWELVE years old???
> 
> ...


It didn't offend me, but I have been calling him a child, so figured I would speak up in my defense.  Guess maybe my age is starting to show.


----------



## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

Emmy D said:


> I wasn't talking to D. Jim or Sonshine, it is Laura who just keeps pushing this "CHILD" point. Sorry if I offended anyone!
> 
> Laura, in WHAT state can you get MARRIED at TWELVE years old???
> 
> ...


I didn't take offense, nor did I mean to attack you. It's just that it doesn't really matter how old the kid was (and yes, I consider him a kid, since I'm about to send one off to college), it was wrong. If the guy was 70, it was the wrong thing to do.


----------



## George in NH (Jun 24, 2002)

Emmy D said:


> You keep calling him a CHILD, yet men and women his age vote, go to war, get married, have babies, etc., he was NOT a CHILD he was a man!
> 
> Emmy


And if he was your son what would you call him? Would he still be a man then or would he have been your child/your baby? 

I consider 18 to be a child. If 18 isn't a child then shouldn't they be allowed to go to the local bar and down a scotch on the rocks?


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Emmy D said:


> You keep calling him a CHILD, yet men and women his age vote, go to war, get married, have babies, etc., he was NOT a CHILD he was a man!
> 
> Emmy


But not drink nor buy a handgun. So doesn't seem the government doesn't consider him fully mature does it?

That's one of my pet peeves.


----------



## JanS (Jul 28, 2002)

The Christopher and Dana Reeve Foundation for paralysis research (he was paralyzed in a horseriding accident)

The Mario Lemieux Foundation - cancer and neonatal research (he had cancer and his son was born prematurely)

Christina Applegate has had breast cancer and is a spokesperson for breast cancer education and research

John Travolta established a foundation for children with the same health problems as his late son

Lance Armstrong, a cancer survivor, supports Leukemia Research, Stand Up to Cancer, and several others

I'd venture to say they are all pushing their agendas. In some cases the agenda is that little children shouldn't die of cancer. In others, it's that people should be able to go about their lives without being tormented over their sexual orientation.


----------



## George in NH (Jun 24, 2002)

Ellen was on Anderson Cooper last night and she explained why she is speaking up. She said she knows what the boys were going through because she'd been them at one time and that she still was the brunt of jokes when she came out years ago. She mentioned that she was only able to come to be comfortable in her skin about ten years ago and that she is in a position to be the voice for the boys and other's like them. I don't think anyone would question her motives if she were speaking up reagarding female issues.


----------



## Phoebesmum (Jan 4, 2009)

George in NH said:


> Ellen was on Anderson Cooper last night and she explained why she is speaking up. She said she knows what the boys were going through because she'd been them at one time and that she still was the brunt of jokes when she came out years ago. She mentioned that she was only able to come to be comfortable in her skin about ten years ago and that she is in a position to be the voice for the boys and other's like them. I don't think anyone would question her motives if she were speaking up reagarding female issues.


Discrimination against homosexuals IS a female issue--it is a human issue.


----------

