# Does anyone now about "Rage Syndrome" in dogs? Need info asap.



## crazygoatgal (Jan 15, 2008)

My brother has a neutered male St. Bernard that has been diagnosed with this disorder by a trainer. He is 5 years old and on 5 different occasions has, seemingly unprovoked, gone after people. The last one was just recently and he broke his runner and ran across the highway and attacked a lady that I know. This was definitely unprovoked and he bit her elbow. Not badly, but he bruised her back from slamming into her after the bite. His intent was to hurt her and my brother is doing the right thing and having him put down on Monday but I need to know if this is a true physiological/mental problem or someones own made up diagnosis. 

This dog is the sweetest thing you could ever know and would never and has never tried to harm a child, animal, or family member. But every so often, he seems to "snap" and want to go after someone. It doesn't last long and there seems to be no rhyme or reason for 3 of the 5 times. Once or twice someone came in the house without my brother okaying it, so we didn't treat it like the other situations. This is his first time really hurting someone in an unprovoked situation. My brother is devastated but won't chance having anyone else get hurt. 

I just want to know, in order to ease his mind, if this is a real thing. It makes it easier to do if you know that there is truly no hope for this poor animal. Thanks.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

Yes. Simply put, it's akin to a seizure.

I am so sorry.  Poor bro, poor doggie. Responsible owner, though.


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## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

In the '70's my bff had a rescue St. that had this disorder. She refused to put him down and passed him to her b-i-l. That was after he put me up a tree with my babydaughter in a back pack. Three months later he bit the bil and was shot . We were all really young back then and tought we could save the world. Poor dog was a sweetie at other times and it was not his fault but would just look blank and lose it. The vet back then said large dogs get this often.


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## crazygoatgal (Jan 15, 2008)

jen74145 said:


> Yes. Simply put, it's akin to a seizure.
> 
> I am so sorry.  Poor bro, poor doggie. Responsible owner, though.


That is exactly what the trainer said. . .like a seizure disorder. We are so torn up about this because this dog has been my brothers best friend since day one and has literally saved my brothers life. I am so afraid for my brother and what he may do when he loses this dog. His name is Moose. 

The trainer said it is becoming more of a problem due to poor genetics along with inbreeding and just plain stupid, greedy people. I wish people like that were held more accountable for the crap they produce. Now an entire family loses an amazing pet and a sweet older woman is hurt all because of the lack of scruples on someones part. 

Thanks for the quick answer. It really does help. Please keep my brother Chris in your prayers. He wants to have him cremated but cant afford the $300 to have it done, so I have been trying to find a way to raise the money. At least he would always have him with him. Maybe you all could pray that we can raise the money for him. Thanks again.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Dogs may be labeled with Rage Syndrome because they have a low threshold of aggression. There can also be neurological reasons. It can be caused by a problem with the hippocampus and frontal lobe of the cerebral cortex. It could be caused by thyroid dysfunction. It could be caused by epilepsy seizures, or other problems. A problem with an organ will eventually be evidenced by symptoms such as dry skin, poor coat condition, frequent urination, refusal to eat, vomiting, etc. Your vet should run a blood work, including a full thyroid panel.


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## crazygoatgal (Jan 15, 2008)

pamda said:


> In the '70's my bff had a rescue St. that had this disorder. She refused to put him down and passed him to her b-i-l. That was after he put me up a tree with my babydaughter in a back pack. Three months later he bit the bil and was shot . We were all really young back then and tought we could save the world. Poor dog was a sweetie at other times and it was not his fault but would just look blank and lose it. The vet back then said large dogs get this often.


That must have been so incredibly scary!!! And my brother said that he can actually "see" him physically change when this happens. He said it is scary to watch. I am in awe of my brother for doing this terrible thing for the sake of being a responsible owner. I don't know if I could do it, I just don't know. I hope I never have to know.


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## crazygoatgal (Jan 15, 2008)

Maura said:


> Dogs may be labeled with Rage Syndrome because they have a low threshold of aggression. There can also be neurological reasons. It can be caused by a problem with the hippocampus and frontal lobe of the cerebral cortex. It could be caused by thyroid dysfunction. It could be caused by epilepsy seizures, or other problems. A problem with an organ will eventually be evidenced by symptoms such as dry skin, poor coat condition, frequent urination, refusal to eat, vomiting, etc. Your vet should run a blood work, including a full thyroid panel.


So this doesn't have to be a death sentence for this dog? That would be so awesome. I will check into it. Thank you.


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## Texasdirtdigger (Jan 17, 2010)

I once had a St. Bernard (Buckwheat) that had a thyroid disorder and caused something like this.... Don't put him down, until a GOOD Vet has run a full panel on him.
The aggresion stopped after he started being treated... I'm sorry, I cannot remember exactly what we gave him perscription wise.
I'm sorry the lady was injured....I'm sure Moose is very confused and scared, too.
Good Luck.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

See, I dunno if that's something I'd try to treat. I would worry, just like in people with mental disorders, someday the meds would need tweaking, and I wouldn't know it until my very large dog had injured someone. 

To each their own, and anyone who got more sane time with their pet, I'm happy for you. Just sayin'.


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## MARYDVM (Jun 7, 2004)

Rage Syndrome is an easy label for all sorts of aggression. In true rage syndrome the dog is pretty much unstoppable - biting continuously and without inhibition until it "comes out of it". If this were true rage syndrome, the victim would have lost her arm or her life. Tying this kind of dog out was probably a major contributing factor in the attack. Tie outs magnify territorial aggression towards any and all passerbys.

That being said, Saint Bernards have a long history of dangerous aggression in certain lines. A good friend of mine in Vet school almost had to have her leg amputated as an undergraduate, after a Saint in the boarding kennel she worked at attacked her while she was in its run. Her life was saved by a coworker who slammed the kennel door on the dog's head, inducing it to let go long enough for her to stumble away. While my friend was being taken to the ER, the dog's owners drove to the kennel and took their dog out of state so he couldn't be seized by Animal Control. He was a champion, and litter brother to the #1 Saint in the country so of course he was too valuable to be euthanized. They continued to keep him and breed him because he was such a "good dog".

In my opinion there is no place for an unstable giant breed dog in today's society. This dog has multiple bites behind him. The responsible thing to do is put him down.


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

I've seen this frequently in older Springer Spaniels - actually called Springer Rage. In a dog that would normally be very gentle natured, it seems that the connections in the brain stop functioning properly and these episodes occur.


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## longshadowfarms (Nov 27, 2002)

jen74145 said:


> See, I dunno if that's something I'd try to treat. I would worry, just like in people with mental disorders, someday the meds would need tweaking, and I wouldn't know it until my very large dog had injured someone.


Exactly. 

Question for the vets - someone who works with Pyrs told me that there is essentially a mental illness in some Pyr lines that is similar to human bipolar, even treated with some of the same meds. That was what they thought our first Pyr had - started at about age 2, got progressively worse. This was a 150 lb dog in it's prime and we had little kids. We couldn't afford to make a mistake med-wise. That doesn't sound quite like this case, but I wonder how much mental illness there is out there in dogs. It would surprise me if there isn't.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

This occurs in a number of breeds but of course you hear about it more with the big breeds because it is so much more dangerous.

A friend of mine who bred and showed Saints for 30-plus years had one that was diagnosed with it and had to be put down. I don't agree with the trainer's statement that it is getting more common because of poor genetics and inbreeding ... I tend to see that as a convenient "cop out" that gets blamed for everything ... I've known of it as a problem for the last 40 years.

From most of the information I've gathered, it is more likely to be a neurological problem, not necessarily related to genetics, although it may occur more often in some lines than in others. I bred Rottweilers for years and the only Rottweiler I ever knew that exhibited this type of thing was a big dog I leased for a year for breeding. He was fine with his owner for the two years before he came to me. He was fine with me for a year. I shipped him back to his owner and within a month, he had an episode of "Sudden Rage" while in the van. 

He did eventually have to be put down but the vets that were involved felt it could have been possible that he was oxygen deprived during the flight, which could have caused neurological damage. Something did trigger the behavior. 

I feel so sorry for both your brother and for the dog ... it is so traumatic. I know what my friend went through with her Saint.


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## GoldenMom (Jan 2, 2005)

longshadowfarms said:


> ...I wonder how much mental illness there is out there in dogs. It would surprise me if there isn't.


I don't think there is really any way to know how much is out there. Since the dog can't talk and there are so many variables (training/lack of, owner personality, choosing the wrong breed, etc., etc.), I think it's actually pretty rare to diagnose true mental illness. And then all the "mental illness" that is really a seizure disorder or thyroid, etc. It's extremely hard to sort through all the possiblities and there are no psychiatric hospitals for dogs to go to while it's being sorted out.

I'm in the camp that it's too dangerous to keep such a dog, even if it were a small one and even if the illness is based on seizure disorder or other disease. There is no way you could ever trust such a dog in public and even the best laid plans for keeping the dog secured can go bad.


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## Missy M (Mar 2, 2007)

How often is the dog exercised? For how long? Dogs - especially large breeds can become stir crazy from being tied or not exercised enough. Not only aggression due to build up of unspent energy but self mutilation can occur. Large dogs are more prone only because they often require more exercise than a small dog and people notice it more when they "snap" out of frustration because they have the potential to be much more dangerous. This dog should be figourosly exercised a minimum of 45 minutes a day.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Missy M said:


> Dogs - especially large breeds can become stir crazy from being tied or not exercised enough. Not only aggression due to build up of unspent energy but self mutilation can occur. Large dogs are more prone only because they often require more exercise than a small dog and people notice it more.


This definiely happens, but it does not seem to be a particular factor in the situations that have been diagnosed as "sudden rage syndrome".

In both cases I know of personally, the dogs were not "confined" ... either in a kennel/run, on a chain or house dogs with limited exercise.


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## Tracy (May 2, 2002)

Has this dog been vaccinated? Rabies vaccines can cause aggression as well as what another poster said as far as thyroid issues.
Before this dog is put done I would look at these two issues.http://www.squidoo.com/rabiesvaccine#module29262562 

http://www.dogaware.com/health/hypothyroid.html


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Well I have a theory... if I knew of a good vet journal, I'd post it there....

It has to do with neutered male dogs... they get a rage on when they see someone who reminds them of the person that did the 'dirty deed' to them.

If someone 'did that' to me.... I'd be ready to get a Rage On if I saw someone who reminded me of that 'day'.


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## Oregon Julie (Nov 9, 2006)

Tracy said:


> Has this dog been vaccinated? Rabies vaccines can cause aggression as well as what another poster said as far as thyroid issues.
> Before this dog is put done I would look at these two issues.http://www.squidoo.com/rabiesvaccine#module29262562
> 
> http://www.dogaware.com/health/hypothyroid.html


That is one of the first things that came to mind when I read this. However getting any vet other then a holistic one to admit that there is a tie between aggression (or other neuro problems) and rabies vaccine is going to be extremely difficult to say the least.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

GoldenMom said:


> I'm in the camp that it's too dangerous to keep such a dog, even if it were a small one and even if the illness is based on seizure disorder or other disease. There is no way you could ever trust such a dog in public and even the best laid plans for keeping the dog secured can go bad.


I have to agree. If my normally sweet, friendly dog goes berserk and attacks someone for no apparent reason, as much as it would hurt me, he'd take his final trip to the vet immediately. I don't care if it's a neurological disorder or a temperament trait, it's just not worth it, especially with a giant breed who can do so much damage. I've seen it in cockers, and it's bad enough with them.

There are so many nice dogs out there that need homes, why spend resources on a dog that is so unpredictable, and could seriously injure or kill someone? If it is a neurological disorder, the dog may also attack members of the family.


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## PNP Katahdins (Oct 28, 2008)

If he bit someone and it gets reported, which is a good possibility in the latest case, be sure to have his current rabies certificate ready.

One attack by a St. Bernard is bad enough, but five? Has their homeowners' insurance dropped them yet?

Doesn't matter what the excuse is! If this were my dog, I would take him to my vets for euthanasia and explained what happened. They should know how to have the brain checked for rabies as a precaution, or whatever procedure needs to be followed now. Properly-vaccinated dogs can still develop rabies. Rare, but possible.

I'm not thinking it actually was rabies, just that the latest victim will want to know for sure rather than go through treatment.

20 years ago, a neighbor's nice English springer female developed what was called Springer Rage Syndrome. She bit me, unprovoked, in the finger while I was talking to the owner. Good thing I had gloves on. She had already bitten several times that I didn't know about. The dog later developed mouth cancer and couldn't be handled for treatment. Lots of tears but no options.

Texican - fortunately, dogs aren't humans.

Peg


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## lauriej57 (Nov 20, 2008)

I can agree with some here that it could be due to reactions to vaccines or something similar. I had a lab many many years ago that had heartworm, we treated him, but had to take him off the treatment. He was my best bud, and we had to keep him quiet during treatment, so he stayed in his crate while we were at work, got to the point where I couldn't let him out of his crate, he'd attack me as soon as I opened the door.

As hard as it is, I would put him down also, I wouldn't be willing to take the chance.

If your brother can't afford the $300 to have him cremated, I'm sure he won't be able to afford the costs of bloodwork and then possible treatments.

By the way, when we lost our Buster last year, we only paid $60 to have him cremated, which also included a nice obituary. I would check around on that cost.


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## crazygoatgal (Jan 15, 2008)

Thank you all for your responses and help. This is a very difficult time for all of us , but especially Chris, Mooses human. My brother says that even if he can be treated, who is to know if it is working until it doesn't work. How can he take that chance and possibly endanger someones life. 

The lady at my church, that he bit, talked with me today after church and she has such a sweet heart and is only concerned with my brothers welfare and feelings. She actually got to witness to him in a 5 page letter she wrote him. What a lovely, lovely lady. She actually made some treats for Moose. What a way to show the all loving and forgiving nature of our awesome God!!! 

He is bringing him tomorrow at 4:30 to the vet. Please pray for him. And again, I am so incredibly appreciative of all the words and help. And thank you for not passing judgement on my brother for his decisions up to now. He takes very good care of his dogs and they get regular exercise and are on runners, not chains. The groomer once said that Moose is the only long haired St. B that she has ever seen that truly has NO mats. She was impressed. Chris doesn't have children of his own so his dogs are his kids.


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## PNP Katahdins (Oct 28, 2008)

Lynn, I was thinking about your brother (and Moose) all day Monday. I hope Chris is doing okay, also the lady who got bit.

Hugs for all of you.

Peg


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## Texasdirtdigger (Jan 17, 2010)

I am so sorry.
What a terrible position.((((Hugs))))


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

I have a friend who loves Saints had them for years but got out of them because there were too many issues with the breed. She had one that had these attacks at first they were minor issues that she thought was just territory till she attacked her daughter and got her ont eh face. She was PTS immediately and after several more dogs with issues she got into Newfs. I see it a lot sometimes I wonder if it is just owner handling but too mnay times it happens out of the blue. Soory that your Bro has to go thru this. It seems to be showing up more in Bullmastiffs as well. My daughter got bit in the face by ehr friends dog seems he also attacked her mother a few months before. He was PTS 5 days after the attack on my daughter she was lucky she knew how to react and she has healed pretty nicely with only one scar. 2 millimeters closer and she would probably have lost her eye!


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## PNP Katahdins (Oct 28, 2008)

Any updates?

Peg


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## crazygoatgal (Jan 15, 2008)

Thanks for thinking of us everyone. Moose did cross the rainbow bridge on Monday and we are all a mess. I cry everytime I think about him. I know it was the right thing and I look at my brother as my hero for doing the hardest thing in his life just to keep others safe.

The vet is so sweet. She is letting my brother pay for the cremation in monthly payments so that he could get it done. One of the few vets left around here that truly cares more for the animal than the money. Euthanasia is free if your pet is a patient of theirs. She cries when she needs to euthanize a pet. What a lovely lady and SHE HAS GOATS TOO!!!! Can't get much better than that. 

When I can I will post pics of him, he really was the sweetest and most sensitive dog I have ever met and that is saying something, considering how much I love my dogs. 

Mooses birthday is May 5th. Please keep my brother in your thoughts and prayers. He would have been 6 years old. 

Thanks again for all the help and understanding. He really takes excellent care of his dogs and is wonderful to them. They are on runners, not chains and they go for walks along a beautiful lake at his house. They go for car rides and are always groomed; never a mat on them. He did everything he possibly could to properly care for his dogs and still keep them and people safe. Thank you for not judging him. You guys are wonderful. Take care.


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

texican said:


> Well I have a theory... if I knew of a good vet journal, I'd post it there....
> 
> It has to do with neutered male dogs... they get a rage on when they see someone who reminds them of the person that did the 'dirty deed' to them.
> 
> If someone 'did that' to me.... I'd be ready to get a Rage On if I saw someone who reminded me of that 'day'.


What he said.


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## longshadowfarms (Nov 27, 2002)

crazygoatgal said:


> I know it was the right thing and I look at my brother as my hero for doing the hardest thing in his life just to keep others safe.


I'm so sorry! I agree, it is the right thing and the hardest thing. I have been there too and it is the last place on earth you'd ever want to be. I will continue to pray for all of you through this difficult time.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

My heart breaks for your brother. He is a good, brave man who has done what was best for everyone involved. I am so very sorry.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Aww, I am so sorry for all of you. (hugs)


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

farmmom said:


> I've seen this frequently in older Springer Spaniels - actually called Springer Rage. In a dog that would normally be very gentle natured, it seems that the connections in the brain stop functioning properly and these episodes occur.


I have never met a springer that didnt eventually get this in old age. This is a major problem in this area with springers. Even extends to other spaniel breeds. I have heard it called springer rage and spaniel rage. I didnt even know that other types of dogs could get this. There is treatment options. I have never seen them work.


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## crazygoatgal (Jan 15, 2008)

Thank you all again, I appreciate all the support and love. I know my brother would as well. He cannot talk about it so I don't push it, but I do worry for him.

But on a lighter side Moose left me with a memento of himself before he crossed. Apparantly a couple days before he was in the car with my brother and decided he didn't like some people standing outside of the car and decided to chew my car door and take a bite out of my back rest!!! Not terrible, but definitely noticeable. I am sure the people were very glad it was my car interior and not their "exterior" that got chewed up. 

I wish I knew how to post pics. And thanks again to all. I take comfort in knowing that animals never have to worry about negative consequences after death. Just peace.


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