# One swollen knee?



## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

I have a four year old doe who kidded with quads in April. We have just finally gotten her over a case of mites....her hair is growing back and scabs coming off.....

but a couple of days ago we noticed one front knee is swollen. It feels squishy.

Can just one knee be affected with CAE? 

We've had her since she was three weeks old. Could she have gotten that from a buck we brought in. Or other does we have bought?

How do you test for CAE?

Is there anything else that would cause one knee to swell like that?

Thanks,

Dee


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

It's (obviously) arthritis (the swelling of a joint)

Arthritis is more like a symptom rather then an illness--it has a cause like scours. The only way to really know (unless if you know she got injured or tested her for something like CAE) is to call a vet and have him examine the joint fluid. Examining the joint fluid can determine whether goat is suffering from bacterial arthritis, viral arthritis, traumatic arthritis or nutritional arthritis.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

Oh and is there a scab on the knee? If it was torn open or something, it could have gotten affected and swollen.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

So arthritis can be something other than CAE? Good to know.

I don't see any scab or abrasion on the knee.

The only thing I can say about this doe is that she seems to be pretty delicate. If there was a problem in the herd or even with some of the kids, she seemed to get it. Cocci. Mites. She does not seem as sturdy, healthwise as my other Nubians. But she gives the most milk and is a sweetheart, so we keep her. She is thin (especially after kidding quads and milking), but she really was born that way. Her Mom and Grandmom are thin, more delicate looking goats, too--but good producers.

If it would be something like CAE, would the swelling go down....or more symptoms develope?

If the swelling goes away after a few days, can I stop worrying about CAE?

A trip to the vet in my area cost more than the goat is worth.....and they don't know alot about goats anyway. I hate to have to do that.

What kind of sample do you need for CAE testing? Blood? Knee fluid?


Dee


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

animals infected with the cae virus have a weaker immune system, get faster sick, more parasite problems.
same seems to be true for heavy milker.
you need to draw blood and send it in to WADDL or biotracking. 
maybe you can find somebody in your are to help you with that.


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## DQ (Aug 4, 2006)

MamaDee said:


> If it would be something like CAE, would the swelling go down....or more symptoms develope?


there can be flare ups. so just because it temporarily seems to ease up doesn't mean it isn't cae. I had a positive doe that only had one knee that would occasionally blow up. can't say for sure it was her cae status that was causing the problem but it seems likely. She went in the freezer. 

try not to be intimidated by the idea of drawing blood. I buy blood tubes I need from a vet and you could probably buy syringes there too.

where are you located? maybe someone is near you that could help as susanne said.


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## GeorgiaGirl (Jun 1, 2009)

Dee, are you the "Dee" that lives in Monroe, Ga. and works at the Tractor Supply Co.? 

I met her at a goat show in Monroe a few weeks back and she was giving out coupons for goat feed and caps. I thought it would be nice to talk with her again. Just checking to see if this was the same "Dee".



Tonya 
Graceful Acres Farm


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

Sorry, not the same Dee. ; )

And I looked tonight and both of her knees are swollen--one is just worse.

So.....what would be the reasons to test her if I was never going to breed her again?

Dee


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

If her doe kids had her colostrum and you plan to breed them, you need to know. If you have more than one milker and are milking by machine, you need to know. It's also good to know her status if you do anything with her that may spread body fluids to another goat, such as trumming hooves and hers bleed, milking her and some gets where another goat could lick it, etc. Also, if a goat has CAE, by the time the knees get affected, it's about time for freezer camp.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

<<<If her doe kids had her colostrum and you plan to breed them, you need to know>>>

I pulled the kids after birth b/c she wouldn't nurse them. But I milked her and fed it to the kids, so yes, they had her colostrum. And.....all of her kids were sold. 

<<<If you have more than one milker and are milking by machine, you need to know>>>

Why only if you're milking by machine?

<<<It's also good to know her status if you do anything with her that may spread body fluids to another goat, such as trumming hooves and hers bleed, milking her and some gets where another goat could lick it, etc.>>>

How common is that? Could my goat have gotten it from another goat I bought or would it have likely came from her mother from birth?

<<<Also, if a goat has CAE, by the time the knees get affected, it's about time for freezer camp>>

Well, then wouldn't she have other symptoms? If the knees being affected is a later sign, wouldn't I notice something else wrong with her? What else should I look for?

Thanks so much for this info. 

Dee


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## DQ (Aug 4, 2006)

MamaDee said:


> <<<
> 
> Well, then wouldn't she have other symptoms? If the knees being affected is a later sign, wouldn't I notice something else wrong with her? What else should I look for?
> 
> ...


the arthritis is _the_ thing you will notice wrong with her other than very generalized not quite as robust type symptoms that are easily attributable to something else and also easy to dismiss. other symptoms may or may not appear ever. even the athritis doesn't always show up.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

it would be only fair to the buyer of her kids to let them know if there is the possibility that they got infected with cae.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

I checked tonight and it is both her knees.

What else besides CAE could it be?

Dee


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

no guessing games. the correct answer is testing.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Dee, can I ask you why you are resisting testing? Other than harvesting the blood, surely you know someone who could pull blood for you, it's $5 in shipping and $6 in testing. A negative would give you a better idea then if it's mycoplasma, and honestly I would rather have a doe symptomatic for CAE that if you really never breed her again can never give this to anyone rather than mycoplasma which is contagious.

If this is CAE the swelling can be sweated out of her knees but her knee size will never go down, eventually she will only walk on her knees as the arthritic form of CAE (caprine arthritis encephalitis) takes hold. Can you imgaine a doe on her knees during your winters? During your mud? Being stepped on by herd mates as they run buy? It's a very cruel life. It's one thing to keep does who are asymptomatic alive, it's and entirely different thing to keep symptomatic does alive. Quality of life.

She came to you with CAE. There are lots of plausable .001% type things, mostly duplicated only in labs that could have given your doe CAE, but the honest truth is she got it from her mom, and her kids got it from her. You need to test your herd and nip this in the bud, it's unethical to breed and sell...sure breed and eat if you want, but once you breed and sell...your selling heartache to new people. 

It's like for sale forums, even ones on here. If they don't state the does is tested negative for CAE you can pretty much assume that they are positive, and actually should assume they are positive. Harsh, yes, but we have all been there done that as new folks. Vicki


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

MamaDee said:


> <<<If her doe kids had her colostrum and you plan to breed them, you need to know>>>
> 
> I pulled the kids after birth b/c she wouldn't nurse them. But I milked her and fed it to the kids, so yes, they had her colostrum. And.....all of her kids were sold.
> 
> ...


When you milk by hand, you can wash your hands betwen does. When you milk by machine, you're putting the inflations from one doe to the next and goats can pass CAE through the milk to other does. This is how CAE is spread in commercial dairies. I know of two dairies where this has happened.
While milk/colostrum is the usual means of transmission - and likely the way your goat woukd have been infected, it is said that CAE is spread through white blood cells, so if you were to give her a vaccination and then use the same needle on another goat, there is the remote possibility of spreading CAE. A friend's doe was infected at a goat show after a kid fed her some milk from his sick doe.
As far as symptoms go, some can test positive and remain asymptomatic for many years or even life. The two main symptoms I've seen in positive does are swollen knees and a hard udder. If you're going to dry up the doe and not breed her, the udder wouldn't be an issue. With the swollen knees, if the doe starts showing signs of lameness, it's time for the freezer. You don't want her to suffer. With acute CAE the goat can start wasting away. If you can find a copy of Goat Medicine, there's good info in there.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

Yes, the point of my post was to say 'It might be CAE, but it *could* be something else too' you can't really tell if it isn't, I was just letting you know it might not be  Have her tested to be sure.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

If you're going to dry up the doe and not breed her, the udder wouldn't be an issue. >>>

Are their udders and milk supply always affected? Her udder is super soft and wasn't hard right after kidding quads, either. She milks more than my other 2 goats.

It's not that I"m resisting testing....I've been doing alot of reading on CAE. It's very confusing, the different viewpoints.

Dee


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

you can have super soft udder and swollen knees.
you can have no symptoms at all and the infected animals still can spread the disease. 
this is why we test all animals


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

GeorgiaGirl said:


> Dee, are you the "Dee" that lives in Monroe, Ga. and works at the Tractor Supply Co.?
> 
> I met her at a goat show in Monroe a few weeks back and she was giving out coupons for goat feed and caps. I thought it would be nice to talk with her again. Just checking to see if this was the same "Dee".
> 
> ...


Tonya, that would be the very nice CannonFarms who was at the Monroe goat show with TSC stuff. :baby04: You can send her a PM, she is quick to respond.

Where are you in Ga? Does GracefulAcresFarm have a website?
Paul


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## GeorgiaGirl (Jun 1, 2009)

Hi Paul,
I'm in Monroe, GA. I remember meeting you also. I do not have a website yet. I am working on one though. It will be gracefulacresfarm.com

I hope to get it up and running before too long. 

Tonya


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

<<<Also, if a goat has CAE, by the time the knees get affected, it's about time for freezer camp>>

Why would this be? She doesn't act sick. She doesn't limp. She gives more milk than anyone. If I don't breed her again, why would I need to cull her? She doesn't seem in distress at all. If she were suffering, I would put her down--she was our first goat. She's a pet.

Now the harder question. What conversation do I need to have with any buyers of her kids this year and last year? I know I need to let them know that they have kids who were exposed to a doe who may have CAE (or does have, if testing showed that). But what does that mean to them? Will their kids get CAE for sure from their mom? If they do, will they for sure get sick? What if they want their money back, etc.....if I have responsibility for the kids I sold, what about the breeder where I got my doe? 

What a mess.

Dee


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

MamaDee said:


> <<<Also, if a goat has CAE, by the time the knees get affected, it's about time for freezer camp>>
> 
> Why would this be? She doesn't act sick. She doesn't limp. She gives more milk than anyone. If I don't breed her again, why would I need to cull her? She doesn't seem in distress at all. If she were suffering, I would put her down--she was our first goat. She's a pet.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, CAE is no fun. The first thing you need to do is test her and make sure she actually has it.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

So....I called the breeder where I got my doe. Basically to ask what she would do or see if she could help with testing (her policy is that they don't test, but will at purchasers expense). They dam raise, and separate at night until the kids are sold and then they're put on the bottle.

Anyway....she said if the doe wasn't suffering, she for sure wouldn't put her down. If the doe seemed otherwise o.k., she probably would not do anything. It was her opinion that it's pretty hard to avoid CAE these days and unless your goats are symptomatic (which she said none of her have ever been), she didn't see the point of testing. 

If only 10 percent of CAE goats will ever show symptoms......and 80 percent of herds test positive...It seems that my doe just lost to the odds.

Dee


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## DQ (Aug 4, 2006)

MamaDee said:


> It was her opinion that it's pretty hard to avoid CAE these days and unless your goats are symptomatic


that was a ridiculous statement made by her and makes me think she KNOWS her goats have CAE. It is quite easy to find goats that don't have CAE. you get them from RESPONSIBLE breeders (unlike this one) who test and cull or isolate. it is a total copout to imply they don't test because you can't avoid it and it is nothing but justification for selling you a doe that is very likely CAE positive. it is easier than ever to avoid CAE nowadays! inexpensive tests are readily available.the knowledge of how to break the disease cycle is common place. there is no excuse for continuing to introduce CAE positive animals into the gene pool. 

I am sorry. this is an awful situation. but breeders like her are the reason these awful situations arise! don't be one of them! before I tested I bought 2 cae positive does from someone on this forum. whether or not they knew the status I don't know but you can bet the breeder either knowingly introduced cae pos. goats into the market or were simply too lazy and irresponsible to test. those does went on to infect a total of 6 doelings doelings. I used them to produce some boer crosses then sold them. one went off into oblivion (mark me one of those irresponsilble breeders) one I sold to a freind. later I tested all my does and my freinds. how heartbreaking and gut wrentching to have to call her and tell her the does I sold her were cae positive. to find out my daughters favorite doeling whom we retained was positive also as well as a doeling that had nursed one of the dams as an orphan. three generations down I raised three doelings on prevention and butchered the positive does that I still owned. I am now waiting. waiting waiting waiting to test the doelings I raised on prevention. hundreds of dollars of store bought milk and feed into them. and I may find out that it is all for nothing. two of them got heat treated colostrum from their owner before I took possession of them. I can only hope that it was adequate. there will be a seed of doubt for sometime even after a negative test result.

please please test. personally I don't beleive the 80% are asymptomatic. I believe that the symptoms are easily and often attributed to something else. 

if you test. then yes you will have to face it. but isn't that better then being in the dark? knowledge is power even if it is painful.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

Yes, but if your goat has CAE, then you can prevent her from passing it on to the kids. And have a few of your other goats in your herd tested too. You can start bottle raising all the new kids, and rid of CAE if your herd is in fact positive.

Anyways, you should test the doe to see if her kids could have it, so you can warn the people who purchased them. I don't think they can force you to take them back (unless if you had some sort of agreement if they had a disease they came with, you have to take them back) but they sure would appreciate the heads up on pasteurizing the milk to bottle raise their kids.

You can stop CAE from being rampant in your herd--or you can ignore it. The better thing to do for all is to stop it though, but it is of course your choice.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

please please test. personally I don't beleive the 80% are asymptomatic. I believe that the symptoms are easily and often attributed to something else.>>>

I do know that this doe has always been the one to come down with something. She is the doe who miscarried. She is the one who got Cocci. She is the one who got mites. I never considered CAE until her knees started swelling last week.

And now I am wondering.....we had another doe we got from this same breeder. At 6 months old she got sick and died from, what we thought at the time, was polio. We treated her aggressively with B1 (is that the right B, I can't remember). But I'm wondering now if she had the neurological kind of CAE? Does anyone know the symptoms of that?

Should I call this breeder and see if she will help me pull blood for testing or just try to find someone else? I have a call in to my vet to see if they can do it.

Dee


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Of course call her. If maybe even on person made her accountable for passing on this disease from her herd to others, not monetarily because your didn't ask for her to test before you purchased, but now in the heartache of it all. Rarely would a kid who is born at your place, stress enough to become symptomatic and it's why the whole older breeder nonsense of 'I am not testing because I have never seen CAE on my place" is just that, nonsense. Other than the rare 2 year old kidding for the first time and has some swelling in her knees, most stock that shows symptoms do so after they are sold. Ask her to pull blood for you, send it to WSU, and then take the tests with you back to her with tears and how awful this is. With 99.99% of CAE coming from colostrum she also knows that this came from her place. Even then most breeders simply turn a blind eye because there are plenty of new people around to sell to, and why they aren't on the internet answering the hard questions. Vicki


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

My vet called back...they will draw the blood and send it in for $20. I thought that wasn't bad. So tomorrow at 10 we're taking Lilly in. No idea how long the results will be.

This whole thing has me thinking alot. I know I could be upset with my breeder.....but you know the people I sold my kids to could say the same thing about me. I've sold kids for two years now. We didn't test. The most I knew about CAE was the prevention program some did. We didn't agree with those measures, but also didn't see the need for testing. I wrongly assumed that if you didn't have sick goats (or bought your goats from someone who didn't have sick goats) that you were safe and didn't need to worry about it. I had heard all the controversy about testing....etc. and thought it was much about nothing. I don't know. I guess my breeder should have known more than I did getting into goats. But some could argue that ignorance is no excuse.

We know better now b/c it's happened to us (I assume, we'll see what the test says). But there are tons more people out there just playing the odds, it seems.

This stinks. I was milking poor Lilly tonight. She really doesn't look good. Her coat is dull and mangy. Her hooves have some leftover scabs from the mites. She just doesn't look herself anaymore. I hate to think of the day I have to put her down. 

Dee


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Dee, Here's hoping the test comes back negative..... I'm glad you're testing 'cause it'll set you straight on your management. Regardless of that outcome, good loose minerals (high in copper), quality hay, browse and BOSS (black oil sun flower seeds) help condition a goat.

Best. Paul


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

Good luck on a negative test.... I am so glad you are doing it!


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

Thanks everyone, for your help and wishes.

I'm the Dee that also has the little doeling at death's door from polio or pnuemonia or something that we're fighting.....yesterday was a bad day. I was ready to give up goats. It's so heartbreaking sometimes. 

I'll post when we get Lilly's results. Thanks.

Dee


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

Just hang in there! Even bad starts can have good endings... experience is what you gain, ****hugs****


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

The vet called today. Lilly is positive. I'm just sick. I don't know what to do. If we keep her (she's not suffering) there is a slight risk she could infect my other goats, isn't there? We would not breed her of course.

If we put her down, shouldn't we wait to test my other does and buck until that is done? How long? Does anyone know the incubation period for CAE? 

I called my friend who breeds Nubians (where we got Lilly) and told her. She said she was sorry. I found out that Lilly's mom had recently died (from "worms"). I think she's in denial. I don't know what she'll do with the info. I gave her. Maybe nothing. When I think of how many goats could be infected from just one herd......it's a wonder 100 percent of goats don't test positive. I don't know anyone that tests around here. I also found out that another doe she had was positive--she was the mom of my Mary, who we lost 3 years ago when she was 5 months old from what we thought was polio. Now I'm sure it was CAE. And now I have another 3 month old doeling showing signs of polio/pneumonia.....and I have to wonder--even though Lilly is not her mom.

I think there are two camps of people. Those who think CAE is much hoopla about nothing, and those who used to think that, but have experienced it and now think otherwise. And now....I have to call those who I have sold kids to, including a good friend of mine who bought 3 of Lilly's does.

Tonight I was looking at Lilly and she came up to the fence, climbed the first two rungs to reach my face and put her cheek against mine......just broke my heart right then and there. 

I hate this. 

Dee


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Dee there is no reason at all to put this doe down if you have not tested the rest of your herd. Test the rest of your herd, find out the status of them, if all positive what is the point of only putting down one? Either deal with them in quaranteen like 99% of us did back in the 80's, or put them down and start over. But why single this one doe out when in reality they are likely all positive.

Sorry for this result, and I know this is calous but you can pretty much be assured that if you don't see the test result in your hand from the breeder that your goats you purchase are negative for CAE, that they are in fact likely positive. So, few of us are suprised with the results of this test. 

Now it's up to you to form your management from this point forward...will you continue with how the person you purchased from does their goats...selling does with infectious disease that shortens their lives and dibilitates them with hard udders, lower immunity that triggers pnemonia or arthritis? Or learn to deal with this disease, test, heat treat and pasteurise and quaranteen kids from adults. Stop the cycle of disease and unethical sales. Vicki


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

But why single this one doe out when in reality they are likely all positive>>>

I thought that 99.9 percent of the time goats get CAE from the mothers. Why would it be likely that my other adult does have it too? I'm not saying they don't....of course I'll test them. But isn't adult to adult transmission not that likely?

And thanks, Vicki....I never thought about "what if I put Lilly down and the others then turn out positive?" I was more worried about the others getting it from her somehow after they had tested negative.

So how likely is it that my other goats can get this from Lilly--or have gotten it?

Dee


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

Where did you get your other does from? If no one in your area tests then it's more likely they are all positive. That's where I think Viki is coming from.

Personally I think there should be a regulation on selling kids without testing them for CAE. If one of the kids coming straight from another breeder is positive, they should be inspected and fined for not testing before selling.

Course we would have to make sure people no about the regulation before hand!


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

MamaDee said:


> The vet called today. Lilly is positive. I'm just sick. I don't know what to do. If we keep her (she's not suffering) there is a slight risk she could infect my other goats, isn't there? We would not breed her of course.
> 
> If we put her down, shouldn't we wait to test my other does and buck until that is done? How long? Does anyone know the incubation period for CAE?
> 
> ...


I am sorry for your positive results, Dee. Hey, I have posted the same idea that locally goatherders are in the same two camps that you describe in CAE with their views of CL. They don't see selling from a positive herd as unethical but knowledgable buyers don't want it in their herds.

Now, you can determine your management in a combatative manner which will eventually eliminate CAE on your farm. I wish you the best.

Paul


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

Where did you get your other does from? If no one in your area tests then it's more likely they are all positive. That's where I think Viki is coming from>>>

Two of my does are not from this breeder where I got Lilly. But I bought another doe from this breeder at the same time as Lilly. She's the one that died of what I assume was CAE at 5 months old. My buck is from the same breeder. I have another doe, Grace who was given to me by a different lady b/c she wa attacked by a dog and was about to die. I nursed her back to health for a year........but she too, originally came from the herd I got Lilly from. It's a small world where I live. I've checked pedigrees, though and my 3 does from this breeder do not share the same mother or grandmother. 

Which leads me to the question: how likely is it that if one or two of my breeder's does were positive that her whole herd is? She told me originally she started with two does from a CAE negative herd. But one turned out to be positive (my Mary's mom). I can only hope she found out about this later and didn't sell Mary to me knowing this four years ago. 

Let's assume that my other does are negative. Do I keep a CAE positive Lilly in my herd if she is otherwise healthy and I never breed her? Could she give CAE to my other herdmates?

I was reading Fias Co. Farms website. Does anyone have any comments about what they do there? It sounds like if they ever had a CAE case, they would not put them down unless they were suffering. They don't test, but supposedly started with a clean herd and bred up and they keep their herd closed, except I assume, for kids they sell from their stock.

I'm sorry for all the questions and second guessing. I'm just trying to figure out what is what in the midst of this heartbreak.

Dee


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

dee, i'm very sorry to hear about your result.
for your peace of mind, keep this doe isolated from the rest until you have them all tested. she already has big knees, which means it is painful. how long can she goe with that? how are your winters? you might think about to dry her off now, bred her again and take the kids right away before she can lick or nurse them. this way, you will have something from her to keep.
i would not want positive and negative animals together. even though, transmission is rare bebween adults, it is possible. 
if you test more frequently (advisable until you have the negative and positive identified, which can take a while) you would always wondering where the positive result came from.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

How many kiddings have you assisted in, how many have you just went out and the kids were already licked off and nursing? Your positive dams must be kidded out with you there, sounds simple enough doesn't it? Most newer folks can go several seasons and never see a kidding at their farm. Will you put down kids you don't catch at birth or butcher them? A few cc's of colostrum and your kid is infected at birth. 

This is the next question you have...it's not all of that what you wrote above...you already answered your own questions, nearly all of the goats in your area come from this one breeder who has CAE. This is typical of most areas, you can buy from person A, B or C but they all started with the same breeders goats, the same really poor information, so the problem persists. Which goats are positive at her place? She can't even answer this because she doesn't test. Fiasco farms...they tell you they don't test, so how do you know or they know who is positive or not?

If a 4 sale ad or website doesn't contain the words, whole herd tested negative for CAE, than you can be pretty well assured in this day and age that it means they have positive animals.

You set rules for your farm, nobody can help you do this. Mine are very simple, after dealing with CAE and CL for a decade, I have no interest in having goats with either disease anymore. Nobody started with worse goats than I did, not only diseased and sold to me on purpose because I was new and didn't know the question to even ask the breeder, but lies on my paperwork, and a horned hemphrodite as my first milker (she had testicles not an udder 

So now I test. I also continue to use prevention because of sales. I have to bottle kids to sell them, so heat treating colostrum and pasteurising milk isn't that much more work anyway.

So take the info you know, you have one positive doe, and likely others, find out.....then figure out what you are going to do from then on. Quaranteen them, glean kids off of them, butcher those you miss and raise your new young herd completely seperated from the adult herd. When you are done using the old herd, butcher them for stew meat and sausage, do not sell them to someone else for the goats to go through more and the new owners to have to go through this hell you are going to have to do.

There is nothing worse than trying to manage a disease on your place.

Test your herd sounds really simple.....what isn't simple is what are you going to do with the test results you now have? Vicki


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

Thanks, everyone for your wishes. I took my other three does in yesterday, so I should know tonight or Wednesday for sure their status. Fingers crossed. Again. My vet says he doens't do any CAE testing at all. They had to make calls to figure out the paperwork. People just don't test, he said. 

Question. The breeder where I got my goats is my friend. I am finding out that she was not totally honest with me, I think. Part of it is that she was misled when she started. She bought two does from a "negative" herd and one turned out positive. I don't know when she found this out, but that doe was the mama of one she sold me (who died as a kid). Now I call her and tell her that my Lilly died and she said that she guesses Lilly's mom must have been positive too. So 2 does in her herd. I got the feeling that if no one else in her herd has symptoms, she wasn't going to do or change anything. I don't know if she just doesn't think it's that serious (I didn't until now) or if she's in denial b/c she knows what it could do to her herd and business. Let's face it, I'm the one whose reputation is going to be hurt here b/c now it's out in the open. 

Now I called a friend yesterday who knows about testing to get info. She says she is so sorry for what is happening. "And it's weird," she says, "b/c the breeder where I got my goats had a positive doe with no problems or symptoms at all." Huh!!!!! I asked her the name of the doe. It's the Mom of my Lilly! How she knew this doe was positive, I don't know. Why my friend/breeder did not tell me when I told her Lilly died I have no idea. I'm pretty hurt.

Now the question. Should I talk to my friend about this? I'm not angry, really. Just hurt and upset. If she was lied to...well alot of people were, it seems. But why would she continue on the cycle? Does she just think it's not a big deal? Well, it feels like a big deal to me right now.

Sucks, b/c I'm the one suffering for doing the right thing. Well, like my DH said.....once this is over we can advertise our goats as the only ones in this area as CAE free. 

Dee


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

dee, i have been in your shoes before, i know how much it hurts. 
how good of a friend is your friend?????
friend ship breaks over cae, and can turn into something very very ugly. 
i think she should replace your doe (have her tested before she comes to your farm) or better, give you your money back.
so sorry


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

susanne said:


> dee, i have been in your shoes before, i know how much it hurts.
> how good of a friend is your friend?????
> friend ship breaks over cae, and can turn into something very very ugly.
> *i think she should replace your doe (have her tested before she comes to your farm) or better, give you your money back.*
> so sorry


Dee, I appreciate your attitude and wish that I could be more like you. I'd be ANGRY!! Your DH had a good comment. 

I agree with Susanne on what position you should take with your friend. Often the only way to stop bad behavior is when it costs too much to continue. 

Do you have the info to draw your own blood and send it for testing? It's probably cheaper than with a vet. There is a site that shows (graphic photos) exactly how to draw bood, and a kit you can buy that provides everything you need. If you don't have it, let me know and I'll go look for it. You and hubby can easily do it for future testing.

Best.
Paul


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

Paul, 

If you had that link, it would be great. I watched the vet do it....I think I could. I just have no idea about all the paperwork, though.

Thanks,

Dee


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## DQ (Aug 4, 2006)

I'm sorry 


I think your vet made it sound much more complicated than it is. there is no paperwork really aside from identifying the samples and simple info such as your name, address and phone number.. just draw the blood with a syringe, put it in a blood tube. write the identification # of the does on the bloodtube and the paper (you make up your own way of identifiying them, I just write their name on it) rubberband the blood tubes together, wrap them in old newspaper or paper towels, put them in a baggy and then mail it in. they can call you or email you with the results. 

go here to print out the paperwork and get instructions on 'how to bleed a goat'. its only 4$ per sample plus shipping of course.
http://www.biotracking.com/cae.php

I am only in my second year of drawing blood myself. I still poke them a few extra sometimes. don't get frustrated it does get easier.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

MamaDee said:


> Paul,
> 
> If you had that link, it would be great. I watched the vet do it....I think I could. I just have no idea about all the paperwork, though.
> 
> ...


Thanks to DQ you have the site. I was in a big rush this morning.

My vet showed me how to draw and I still had an issue with the first two draws. After that IT BACAME SOOOooo EASY! If you order the kit from biotracking, it'll give you the holder, needles and some vacuum tubes. For me it was a tad bloody because I didn't understand that you have to put the needle in the vein then push the tube onto the end of the needle. The tube fills very fast. I marked the tubes and the paper before I went to the barn. It was easy to keep up with the five I pulled. The package didn't arrive at the lab for ten days, but that only issue was that I was ready to receive the results - AND NOW

Try it. You'll be surprised at how fast you "get it." OH an to receive that negative e-mail is a wonderful feeling!!!

Vicki told you that you'll have to create your own management of this CAE issue. You will. Whatever you decide on your farm, stick with it. I have never dealt with CAE, but I believe that one can conquer it with perseverance. 

I have read that you'll know when it is time to put down a goat with CAE. The is really the only option I can see that an honorable goatherder has.


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

I just drew blood today on two does that were given to me on sunday. It had only been 8 months since the last time I drew, and I swear it took me forever to get it! In fact we called a friend to gelp with one very fat goat of a friends who we drew, too. 
The paperwork is simple... if you keep it that way. Go onto the website of whatever lab you're using, print off their forms. If you're still worried, call them, they usually will help you fill it out....
I am sorry for all that you are going through. But you really don't want to help spread this disease. Thank you for testing her. I can say that my herd is CAE/CL negative, and half the people who come look at my goats don't even know there are diseases...


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

While I am waiting for my tests....does anyone have any info. about drinking the milk or eating meat from CAE positive animals?

I had read that it is o.k., but friend of mine just told me that she heard you should NEVER drink the milk or eat the meat. There were some studies suggesting it could cause auto immune issues in humans. If that's true, then 80 percent of the goat world is in trouble.

Anyone know of links to good info?

Dee


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

I think Vicki has a lot of that information


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

dee, the milk and meat is fine to eat/drink 
there were studies done that report hiv positive people, benefit from drinking cae+ milk. 

if you use the meat in your kitchen, be careful not to prepare it next to your milking equipment or milk bottles that you use vor feeding the kids.

i would not milk positive does, just as not to get it mixed up with the other milk and accidentally giving it to the kids. just a precaution


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

I don't know where to start....

We got the results of our other three does. My kinder is negative. My other nubian from the same breeder as my Lilly is also negative. My nubian/alpine cross from an entirely different herd is positive. So 2 out of 4 have CAE. I thought my 3 month old doeling was o.k. since her mom is negative, but I forgot we bottle fed her milk that would have included Lilly's--so she's probably positive, too. AND......my buck is probably positive b/c he was bottle fed at Lilly's breeders before I got him. So I guess that makes 4 out of 6. 

We put Lilly down today. She just wasn't looking good. I'm trying to find a home for our positive cross--someone who just wants a pet. She's always been like a big dog and as healthy as a horse (except her CAE status). I don't know what to do about our buck and baby. It doesn't make alot of sense to keep a positive buck if you're cleaning up your herd. And the baby can't be tested for a couple more months. I hate the thought of killing animals that appear healthy and most likely will stay that way....but we can't afford to keep animals we can't breed.

Lilly's breeder says she is sorry....but she just doesn't consider CAE a big deal at all. She said if she were me she would treat Lilly with Kiefer and try to build her up. She would catch babies from my other positive does so the kids wouldn't get it and call it a day. I said something about having to call my friend who bought three of Lilly's does from me and she said that most people don't care. She said that it seems to really bother me, though, so I should do what I have to.

I just don't get it. This seems like a big deal to me.

Dee


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

MamaDee said:


> I don't know where to start....
> 
> We got the results of our other three does. My kinder is negative. My other nubian from the same breeder as my Lilly is also negative. My nubian/alpine cross from an entirely different herd is positive. So 2 out of 4 have CAE. I thought my 3 month old doeling was o.k. since her mom is negative, but I forgot we bottle fed her milk that would have included Lilly's--so she's probably positive, too. AND......my buck is probably positive b/c he was bottle fed at Lilly's breeders before I got him. So I guess that makes 4 out of 6.
> 
> ...


IT DOES TO ME TOO....! 
Hang in there Dee, and follow your heart. For that you'll never be sorry.

Best to you.
Paul


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

:grouphug:

... hang in there. Its up to responsible people to do the right thing and I wish these decisions on no one, but I do think it's better to start with a clean herd and not worry about cross contamination with any of them if you can find clean goats somewhere else. Even if you have to travel. If this disease WAS NOT a big deal then why has so many responsible dairy breeders began regualrly testing their herds. It IS a big deal, and to me, only lazy people don't care that thay could be condenming an animal to a painful life. I am sorry you are going thru this....


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Well, if it was me........I would keep the buck until I found another good breeding buck to replace him. The does are not going to get CAE from breeding, and its too close to breeding season to be without a buck. Keep him housed separately and hand breed. When you have found a good CAE free buck(and I would be actively looking), then butcher this one.

The milk and meat from CAE positive does is perfectly fine for human consumption.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

Argh! I just got a post about CAE on another board. Would I be able to post part of that here or not? I am not sure so I will just say the gist of what they said. It seems to match my breeders philosophy about CAE........

They said that much ado was made about CAE when it first started. And...some goats were lost. But the majority of deaths from CAE is from people culling good animals. They also said that if your goats aren't having huge problems with CAE, don't cull your survivors. You should breed them and eventually, you will end up with goats that don't get the disease or remain completely symptomless. Just breed your best goats and you will always have good, resilient, productive goats. 

They also said the test was a lottery. It is very inaccurate. 

I think that if you want to manage your herd like that, then whatever. But if you don't tell those you are selling to, then you are taking away their choice how they manage their herd.

Dee


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

dee, the test is not a lottery but pretty accurate. 
in your case, test result and symptoms leave no doubts.

i really have no idea as how many herds are truly negative. i don't trust any statements anymore, only my own test result

because the way some people think ( they have the right to do so  ) 
we will never get rid of the disease ( until some authorities step in and start to control like in england where cae is almost eradicated)
i do understand that there are some outstanding animals out there that are valuable and need to be kept. if some one decide to do so, it is his/her choice. 
i do not believe in giving positive animals to other people. (knowingly or un knowingly) it only gives grieve and will never stop the cycle.


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

It just goes back to irresponsible people....


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

I'm so sorry, Dee. Thank you for being kind and responsible and helping Lilly on humanely.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

I asked the poster from the other board if I could share and she agreed if I credit her. Her name is Valerie Price from the "Goat Wisdom" board. I am sharing her post b/c I think this is an important discussion. 

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Mamadee,
I don't want you to think that I am unsympathetic to your plight. I understand how heartbreaking it is to know that you have a virulent organism in your herd and you are trying to figure out what the right thing to do is. This may be a book, but I want to answer all of your questions fully, in hopes of helping you to make informed decisions with regard to your stock. Your goats are depending on you to make the right choices for them and for all other goats too.

You are thinking about today, the goats you have right now and are selling right now and you are thinking about your ethical obligations. That is all comendable and obviously right to do. You have to add to that thoughts on tomorrow, the goat kids that will come in the future, the goat population in general, and all the future goat raisers who will be inheriting the problems we create today. Or they could inherit the healthy goats that descend from the goats we raise today with no problems at all.

When selling any livestock, you have to be honest. If you tell people who want to buy your goats that you may have CAE and that you have seen problems with it in the past, they will be able to make an informed decision. 
I don't test because research has shown that the test has barely a 36% accuracy rating at best. So, you have tested your goats, and 64% of your results are wrong. That means, if you test 100 goats, 36 would give accurate results, according to the research that I have been reading. 64 of those goats would give false positives, false negatives, or inconclusive results that would then be subjectively interpreted by the person reading the results. That isn't a good enough test to even verify lab results with goats deliberately given the virus.

It sounds like you have a virulent strain. You can expect strains to become more virulent because of culling. People have been culling the survivors, instead of breeding them, and that selects for more vulnerable goats and more virulent strains. By culling your survivors, you don't protect yourself from virulent CAE, you don't protect people who buy your goats. You ensure that future goat raisers will be breeding the most susceptible goats and the virus those goats are susceptible to will be the most virulent strains. That will go on until either really exceptionally good tests come out, or goats that don't suffer any ill effects to the virus find their way into herds and continue to produce resistent offspring without being culled. Even the best tests for retroviruses are only accurate by percentages and most of them are subjective, meaning a person looks at it and decides whether there is a bright enough "glow" in the sample to determine that the animal might have been exposed to a virus.

There is a breed of hornless goats. I can't remember what country they are in. When CAE began to affect them, the people in that country culled until there were so few goats left, they saw the breed was going extinct. Groups stepped in to rescue the only breed of naturally polled goats on earth with less than 400 goats left. They stopped testing and stopped culling and they started breeding survivors. Now, they have more than doubled the population of those goats and and more are being born everyday. They breed no longer suffers ill effects from the virus, because they stopped killing the ones that could survive the virus. If a goat dies of CAE, it is out of the gene pool. It's sad. I hate to see goat kids die. But should we kill them ALL so that we don't have to see a goat kid die now and then? That wouldn't make sense.

CAE is a man made disaster. Our goats have natural means of dealing with these retroviruses and they deal with them a lot better if we don't meddle with mother nature. Goat dairies view things differently because if their milk production goes down, they might go out of business. Their breeding is done to generate profit daily. If you aren't operating a commercial dairy, you have more leeway in your decision making paradigm. Breed the survivors. Keep your BEST producers and breed those. 

I don't know if I have CAE in my goat herd. I could test and I could get a bunch of false positives or false negatives and I wouldn't know any more than I knew before. I tell people that I do not test when I sell them the goats, but I also tell them that my production rate of healthy goat kids is roughly 98%. My milk production is perfectly acceptable for our purposes. We don't have a public dairy, we drink our own milk, but we get plenty. Often more than we can drink or make yogurt out of. My goats seem to be very healthy. They haven't been dropping dead while I have recently been informed that large goat die-offs are occurring all around us here from parasite infestation. Who knew?

I do not raise many purebreds because people coddle them too much, they become too delicate, and they are not resistent to anything. If you have a buck that you believe is carrying a virulent strain of CAE, and if you aren't interested in keeping him for your own breeding program, it would be inadviseable to sell him intact. If he were mine, I would wether him and sell him as a pet or for meat, explaining that he may carry CAE to anyone who wanted to purchase him. If you sell him at 6 or 8 months old and he's fine, then he is more likely to die of being someone's dinner or worms or coccidia than CAE. If your does are able to raise kids without 100% mortality in the kids, keep the kids the does were successful in raising. Cull the does by euthanasia or slaughter, or keep them and continue to breed them and just deal with the fact that some of the kids aren't going to make it. You have a range of options here without any ethical dilemma. Within that range of options, you can get down to what your heart is telling you, and that makes it a whole lot easier to make decisions.

The kids you want are the ones that come out of those does, hit the ground running, drink the doe's milk, and thrive. You want the ones that hit one year old without having had numerous health problems. Those are your prize breeding stock for a healthy and productive future herd. Those are the goat kids that will populate the entire world in the next 100 years or less, after all the susceptible animals have succumbed to the disease and disappeared from the gene pool, and that won't happen because of testing or intervention. It will happen through selecting good producers. Meat breeders select good producers and that's why the Boer goats have not had nearly the trouble with CAE. The offspring of poor producers were not kept in the breeding program and the offspring of good producers were never culled.

CAE is transmissible through breeding, dirty needles, nursing, (and may be spread by urine and feces, though that has not been proven conclusively yet). Unless you just stop breeding or keeping any goats, you are always at risk of CAE coming into your herd. It won't go away. It's not going to be eradicated. There won't be a miracle cure. The only cure is natural selection for goats that either do not get the disease or do not become symptomatic after exposure.

The herd management advice you hear from veterinarians and researchers regarding CAE is usually based on the commercial model for public, for profit dairies that MUST maintain a very high output of milk. They cull any doe that can't produce because they can't afford to put one more penny's worth of feed down her throat than what her milk will be sold for. If that is your goal, I would say, dump everything you have and start over with good producing dairy does that are already resistent to the virus.

If you try culling though, you will find that very shortly, you will eliminate your own profit having to sell off cheap goats known to have symptoms of an illness, and buying expensive ones that may have the disease or not and you don't know.

The good news is, what you do is entirely up to you. These are your goats and you have the freedom to make decisions after weighing the pros, cons, emotional and economic costs and consequences of whatever decisions you make.

I applaud you for being concerned about the people who buy your goats, your goats themselves, and the consequences of this virus in other goat herds. I strongly urge you to consider ALL of the known factors and your own needs in making any decisions.

In answer to your question about whether CAE could cause a goat to be more susceptible to other ailments like pneumonia. If the goat is experiencing severe arthritis or encephalitis, yes, he can be more susceptible to complications, but if he is showing no symptoms of CAE, it is more likely that the goat in question is just being a goat. Goats are delicate as a result of decades of culling, also from new medications saving weak goats that would otherwise never live to reproduce, and from management factors such as overfeeding milk and grain or underfeeding roughage. 

Your goat probably has Goat Polio or Listeriosis, since the Thymine and antibiotics have helped. Those disorders are known as "Over-eater's disease" and they are caused by over-feeding grain and milk, not by CAE. Your goat may take time to recover, because both Goat Polio and Listeriosis involve swelling of the brain. Once your goat has recovered though, and if it goes on to live a healthy life until it is over 12 months old, you should breed it and be happy to have such a tough goat. Most of them die from these problems.

Keep up the good work and don't be so sad. It will all be okay eventually. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


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## DQ (Aug 4, 2006)

I would expect she has _very_ outdated notions and info. the test is pretty dang accurate. the rest of her response is all a bunch of excuses based on willful ignorance in my opinion. 

"The positive cutoff score for the cELISA had a sensitivity of 94%, with no false positive results. This is a great improvement over the CAE/OPP AGID test, which had a sensitivity of 56.1% in one study. It is also an improvement over the 90.7% sensitivity of the CAE virus AGID test. "

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cae/cae-waddl.shtml
College of Veterinary Medicine,
Washington State University,


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

OMG!!!! I am sorry, I was only able to skim thru that post.... How dare she say you have goat polio when you have blood test from the vet! AAAARRRGGGGHHHH... A breed of hornless goat? never heard of it. She's sitting there trying to gain your trust by praising you for being concerned about CAE yet SHE is a problem!!!


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

The positive cutoff score for the cELISA had a sensitivity of 94%, with no false positive results. This is a great improvement over the CAE/OPP AGID test, which had a sensitivity of 56.1% in one study. It is also an improvement over the 90.7% sensitivity of the CAE virus AGID test. ">>>

I was hoping for some info. on the test accuracy. How do I know what test the lab my vet used did? Does everyone do the same test now or does it depend on where you have it done?

And...to be fair to her, the goat she is talking about with possible polio is my 3 month old doeling....she is not officially positive. But she drank milk (raw from bottle) from my doe Lilly who is positive (and we put down this weekend).

I know many people share her views (or must, seemingly from the controversy surrounding CAE) and I was hoping for a good discussion about this. I know you guys will come through!

Dee


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

dee labs do not use same test method. you have to ask your vet what they used. there is agid and elisa. first is not as acurate and i'm not sure why some lab still use this. elisa is pretty accurate. 

the best advise i can give you is call WADDL and talk to Dr. John Everman. 
he will answer all your questions regarding your concern abou accuracy of test and how to manage this disease.

if your little doe did drink raw milk from your positive doe, count on it that she is positive, as milk is the main way of transmission.


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

Ask your vet where he sends the tests. The two best labs to use are WADDL and Biotracking. I don't trust PAVL (also known as PanAm). I went through something similar to what you are experiencing. Several years ago, I culled out all the goats I had that tested positive or had swollen knees. The ones that tested negative and their offspring continue to test negative. A couple of years ago, I purchased a first freshener from a friend. Her dam is from a well known herd that claims to be CAE negative and had a negative test result as a kid prior to being sold at the ADGA spotlight sale. I trusted that the goat I bought was negative because to the reputation of the herd her dam is from. Last year, after she freshened, her bag was hard. She also was limping though her knees aren't swollen. I immediately took her to the vet for a blood test. He sent it ot PAVL and it came back negative, so I purchased her younger brother and sister. I also fed her colostrum tho her kids based on the negative test. This year her udder was softer, but still firm. I noticed that her dam was limping and had a swollen knee. The dam makes little milk and also has a hard udder. Then, the sister freshened with an udder that was hard on one side and uneven. I got concerned and had both the sisters blood tested and sent the blood to Biotracking. The are both positive. I then had the vet come out and test my entire herd. The brother is positive as well, as is a doe who was in with my friend's spotlight sale doe. My lod Boer cross doe also tested positive, and I's sure she was from birth. We just never tested her before because we sold her kids for meat. She can no longer conceive. The rest of my herd is negative. These tests are from WADDL.
How I handled this is that I sold the brother and sister to a meat buyer. I also sold the daugher of one of the older does to him. The two other positive does are show quality and are now quarantined at my friend's house. She's willing to do this for me because she sold them to me. They will be hand bred and when their kidding time drawa near, their teats taped. The kids will be pulled at birth and fed colostrum from my does who tested negative. I won't feed them heat treated colostrum from positive does. I have one yearling out of a positive doe who tested negative. Nevertheless, her milk will be treated as if she were positive as she had her dam's colostrum. She will never be alowed to feed kids. The doelings from this years crop out of those does will never feed their kids and any positive tests will send them to the quarantine pen. These does will be tested probably twice a year with ether WADDL or Biotracking. We have one BIG rule at our farm. All pooled milk fed to babies is pasteurized regardless of the does CAE status. If just one goat were to seroconvert, the whole kid crop would be contaminated and I just won't take that chance.
Big lesson from this is to test regularly with a reliable lab and to NEVER trust that a goat is negative just because she wa purchased from a well known breeder.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

goatkid said:


> Big lesson from this is to test regularly with a reliable lab and to NEVER trust that a goat is negative just because she wa purchased from a well known breeder.


i could not agree more with this statement.
sorry you had to go through this too.


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## grandmajo (Mar 25, 2008)

MamaDee said:


> I'm trying to find a home for our positive cross--someone who just wants a pet. She's always been like a big dog and as healthy as a horse (except her CAE status).


Dee,

I'm so sorry that you're having to go thru all of this. You've gotten some really good advice from people here that have lots of experience, I'm always thankful that these people chose to participate on this board.

The only thing that I might add is to please reconsider placing any of the positive animals in a pet home. I don't say this to be mean, but, look at it from this point of view. Can you guarantee that the animal will stay with them forever, until it dies of old age or whatever, and is never bred? Or will they breed it thinking that its "not that big of a deal"? If the people that take the animal, lose a job, lose their home, lose interest, etc and send it off to live somewhere else, will they tell the next owner of the CAE status? Will the next owner even care, or will they breed her anyway? If any of those senarios happens, then you're right back to where you started, an infected goat, having babies, the babies drinking from momma and a whole new generation of infected goats starting all over again.

I know it's heartbreaking to have to consider these things, but it's the only way to break the vicious cycle that's going on.

All the best to you,
Jonell


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

The most depressing part of all of this is that Susanne and Kathie both were mentored by me, both were on forums I was on before they purchased their goats....I have to ask, how can you know me and still purchase goats that you didn't go home and test? I mean not only did you both not test for days, weeks or even months but in one case years?

We can only put the info out there, we can't be responsible for folks choosing not to listen.

I of course disagree with the poster from Goat Wisdom...and it's how you figure out who to purchase from. She doesn't test so she doesn't have to lie to those who buy goats from her, she doesn't disclose I bet on her website or in sales that she doesn't test nor cares about selling goats with a communicable disease. Ignorance is bliss until it's you purchasing a goat like this. So don't give your hard earned money to folks like this. Vicki


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> The most depressing part of all of this is that Susanne and Kathie both were mentored by me, both were on forums I was on before they purchased their goats....I have to ask, how can you know me and still purchase goats that you didn't go home and test? I mean not only did you both not test for days, weeks or even months but in one case years?
> 
> We can only put the info out there, we can't be responsible for folks choosing not to listen.
> 
> Vicki



vicki that is very easy to answer, as the first goats i bought from a breeder you recommended to me. yep, took me a couple of month before i tested.
i trusted her when she said she practice cae prevention. 
that she had a hillbilly woman take care of her goats and cared squat about cae? who could have known this???
no, i don't make you responsible for this and i'm not angry anymore. everything happens for a good reason and i never introduced a goat into my herd again before testing. 
oh yeah, got some more cae positives but it never got me by surprise anymore. 
i sure learned a lot the past couple of years. any goat i buy, is for the genetic and i'm very happy if test comes back negative. 


i think kathy had very similar experience.

a child need to get burned on the fire to learn that it is very hot.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

O.K., guys.....help me out here. Below is another post from my other board. I don't know. On one hand, she makes sense. Is this true about the testing? I mean, if you cull all of your "positive" animals, but many negatives may be positive anyway, what's the point? If you have only a one positive slip through the cracks in your own herd, your whole CAE program is a moot point. 

Help me out here, guys...I don't know what to believe or what to do. I put down Lilly. She was sick. But I have one for sure, and probably two other CAE positives who are all healthy. If everyone in the world were screaming that putting them down is the ONLY way, then that'd be one thing. But there are alot of people making a completely different point.

Here's her message:

<<<<<<<Mamadee,
You're going to get different accuracy rates from different studies, but let's go with 56% for AGID. Freely translated that means, wrong nearly half the time. cELISA is a more SENSITIVE test, not necessarily more accurate. It's SUBJECTIVE, meaning, in the opinion of the person performing the test, this sample is just barely glowing (negative), glowing more than it should, but not that bright (inconclusive) or glowing bright enough, yeah, probably (positive), or that sample could light up like Christmas (definately positive). Most samples don't light up like Christmas. Most of them, it's real subjective.

If you want to destroy healthy animals based on that sort of testing methodology, go to it. They are your goats and it's your money. Horsemen have been forced to do it for years by state governments believing they can eradicate EIA. 40 years later, EIA is still here and still causing illness in U.S. horses. In Argentina, they don't destroy EIA reactors. Nearly all of their horses are positive, but none of them get sick. If they had listened to us, they might have killed off most of their horses and still had the disease popping up and the symptoms of it many of the horses that carried it. 

The trouble with our Veterinary Public Health officials is they are politically motivated and they just don't learn from their own past mistakes.

PCR is the most sensitive test and is actually more likely to isolate positives that would slip through the AGID and cELISA methodology, but it's expensive. The cELISA test is cheap. For $10 to $18 dollars, you can have someone like me test your samples and call it positive, negative, or inconclusive, depending on what I see, what mood I'm in, and whether I've had my coffee that day, or gotten new glasses lately. These are not simple, drop it in and it changes from red to blue types of tests.

I'm kind of curious to know if there is anyone here who believes for one minute that it is worth killing off 80% of the goats in the U.S. based on a test that will let enough carriers slip through so the disease never goes away. I wouldn't kill off 80% of the goats in the U.S. even if NO carriers were going to slip through. It ain't worth it. You can't eliminate risk and if you let other people try to con you into thinking you CAN eliminate risk, then the next thing you know, it won't be up to you. It will be up to some politician to decide whether your goat lives or dies.>>>>>

I'm not afraid of a "can of worms" CAE discussion. I want to be educated and do the right thing. What do you guys think?

Dee


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## catdance62 (Dec 7, 2008)

i guess I am little late on this thread, but I tested for the first time this spring and 2 of my does (that came from the same breeder) were positive, so I had to put them down and their kids too. All the rest of my does were negative (came from a different breeder) but I will retest again before breeding season. My decision to test was that A) i was experiencing udder and joint problems in both the positive does, and B) I was wanting to sell (almost) all registered animals and most people that want to pay for a registered animal want it to be proven CAE negative. 
It was hard to put my does/kids down, but it was necessary. I will be anxious over the results of the second test, but I believe it is the right thing to do. CAE, to me, is a serious disease and causes pain and suffering in the animal eventually, even if it doesnt show up right away.


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

As far as I understand it YOUR GOAT CAN NOT BUILD UP A RESISTANCE TO IT!!!! It's not like a flu shot, where you don't get the flu if you get the shot... I believe this person is VERY BADLY informed about it... there is a lot of info. out there about this... Dairy Goat Info has very good threads about this. 
I am truly sorry you have to go through this. There are many people who breed positive does, take the kids away at birth and thus begin a 'clean' herd.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

dee, like i said before, do yourself a favor and call waddl. you will get the best answers there.

cae is not transmitted between adults that easy. since you had positive results,
it would be the best to practice cae prevention for the next couple of years. 
it should be possible for you to have a negative herd one day


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

You can tell by reading her post that she doesn't even test and doesn't even know what she is talking about. There is no inconclusive test result. I don't know anyone who would choose to use AGID for testing anymore, sure back in the mid 80's when we started testing it was as good as it got, but now with Elissa and PCR?

Even her prices she quoted shows she doesnt' test so why are you listening to her when you are interested in testing and maintaining a negative herd....sure maintain your positive ones seperatly, glean kids off them, but know what you are doing to insure those kids are negative. And disclose. This gal have a website were she openly discloses to her customers that she doesnt' test for CAE?

And lastly, how does anyone know there is 80% positive goats for CAE? The goats aren't tested to know.

If you look around the internet enough you will find someone who will agree with you about anything. If you want to maintain your goats like her, fine, but admit this to yourself and go on. 

If you don't than why get info from her....put down the positive animals or maintain them in quaranteen. Vicki


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

As far as I understand it YOUR GOAT CAN NOT BUILD UP A RESISTANCE TO IT!!!! It's not like a flu shot, where you don't get the flu if you get the shot>>>

O.K., let's assume that's true. There is still the issue of culling 80 percent of a herd with the possibility that you missed a goat that tested negative, but was actually positive. If you have a positive goat that you are unaware of, your whole cae negative herd can go right out the window. Unless, of course, you catch every baby, every time, tape teats, heat treat and never pool colostrum, change boots when visiting other herds, etc.........regardless of the cae status of your herd. 

Dee


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

dee don't make it complicated.
test your herd, separate positive from negative. test again in six month and again separate the positives from the negatives. according to dr. everman, a goat that got infected, will serum convert after eight month.
elisa test is pretty accurate. all those stories where a goat all the sudden popped up positive after years of negative is missing a tiny part of the story or is soooo old and from mouth to mouth that it is from the days where testing was not as accurate.
you only have a very small herd and it should be piece of cake to get clean.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

MamaDee said:


> As far as I understand it YOUR GOAT CAN NOT BUILD UP A RESISTANCE TO IT!!!! It's not like a flu shot, where you don't get the flu if you get the shot>>>
> 
> O.K., let's assume that's true. There is still the issue of culling 80 percent of a herd with the possibility that you missed a goat that tested negative, but was actually positive. *If you have a positive goat that you are unaware of, your whole cae negative herd can go right out the window. * Unless, of course, you catch every baby, every time, tape teats, heat treat and never pool colostrum, change boots when visiting other herds, etc.........regardless of the cae status of your herd.
> 
> Dee



Dee, all through this thread posters have said that CAE isn't caught like the flu or a cold, that it is passed via body fluids. :boring: That's it. A goat can live even thrive for years throwing great genetic babies without passing on the CAE IF THE GOATHERDER manages the herd. When clinical symptoms occur, a decision is necessary for fatal cull. So a herd doesn't have to go out the window. However, a successful and ethical goatherder can't cop the ageold attitude of the poster on your other forum. 

YES, on CAE + does one would have to " catch every baby, every time, tape teats, heat treat and never pool colostrums" with positive animals. Or put down the positives on the evidence of a test that isn't 100 percent right now. Currently "we" believe those to be the only two options. 

One MUST choose a management of the herd, and hopefully stick with it. The poster you quoted has a management that our fellow HT posters don't agree with...but her/his herd is not controlled by one of us. That is the reason we are "aware" of the buyer-be-ware breeders.

Paul


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

A goat can live even thrive for years throwing great genetic babies without passing on the CAE IF THE GOATHERDER manages the herd. When clinical symptoms occur, a decision is necessary for fatal cull. So a herd doesn't have to go out the window. However, a successful and ethical goatherder can't cop the ageold attitude of the poster on your other forum. >>>

Thanks, Paul. But what I'm asking, too, is what about those goats who test negative at the time, but are actually positive b/c of the limitations of the test (not from "catching" it from another CAE goat). If you are only "managing" the cae goats you know of, then you can have kids that are positive that you don't know of and keep on passing it on.

Dee


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Dee that's why I test and use prevention period. First prevention makes for softer udders, much less mastitis, more control of immunity via colostrum, more milk for me to sell, the list goes on and on.

One negative test does not make a herd negative, certainly should not give you peace of mind that you will then let this doe nurse. Now purchased from a herd that has years of negative tests and uses prevention, and has a name you trust, sure....I myself don't take all percautions with a doe like this in my herd.

You simply must test everyone, treat everyone as if they are positive even in the negative catagory, don't let anyone nurse, retest in 6 months and biggy is to test colostrum. The virus may take awhile to give you a positive blood test, but it's always present in the colostrum, the number one mode of transmission.

You do need to manage known positive seperatly, this way they aren't being nursed by other kids, and it's eaiser to micromange a small positive herd than a bigger mixed herd. It is about knowing breeding dates and even then I used super glue on the ends of the teats so if I missed a kidding no way could the kids nurse. No kids were allowed in the main barn because you have no control over who nurses what kid.

You set your own management, it is alot of work and why you pay more for tested negative does out of herds like mine. You get what you pay for. Even with several years of negative tests I continue CAE prevention because I couldn't do what I do on the internet...one slip up and some would be all to happy to take me down. They can say all they want about me, but nobody can say I sell sick goats or take advantage of newbies. Selling CAE positive stock MamaDee puts you in that special catagory of used goat salesmen, you just simply don't want to be know that way. It hurts sales, and the gal you are talking about is the worst, someone who should know better, and actually does know better and chooses to sell stock she likely knows is positive so she can say she never knew. Because think about it, if you could make $150 and up more, because your herd is negative, would you run a $5 test every year? Vicki


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

As to Fiasco Farms- I know Mol and Larry- they started out with a few does from a herd that has raised their kids on CAE prevention from the time dirt was new- the lady who has the herd they got their LM's from still raises some of the best dairy LM's and Obies in the region, and still uses CAE prevention on every kid.

So, given the fact that many generations of goats were raised on CAE prevention prior to Mol and Larry getting theirs, why would they need to continue raising kids on prevention? Especially since all they ever brought in was bucks?

It is all a moot point anyway since the Fiasco herd was dispersed......


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

if you look closer, you will see that cae prevention means different things for lot of different breeder. 
just an example, a breeder i know, had raised on cae prevention but missed to put the kids separate from the does. it was just a little panel in between and adults and kids had nose to nose contact through the pen. since the does just freshened, udders got fuller and possibility of leaking was a given.

another fine example, there are people out there that really believe in giving the kids pasteurized milk is all it takes but miss to heat treat the colostrum properly. 

i learned very early to give a crap about other people saying they have cae negative herd. worst are those that say they never had it.


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

I only give the guarantee the adult goat is neg. for CAE 'THE DAY OF THE LAST TEST'. One does not know what the circumstances are that the goat is going to, no matter how clean the buyer is.

I know one KS Nubian breeder who has huge ads in magazines that says 'we are CAE free for 6/7/8+ yrs.'. Sorry, no such thing, IMHO.

Also, in UK, they use the AGID test. Why, I will never understand when they also have eLisa.

Note: 
Personally, I would get rid of any colostrum from a pos. doe- and use either colostrum from a neg. doe or clean cow colostrum- that is if you have a source for clean cow colostrum. Clean means neg. for Johnnes, BVD, BLV, etc., all the big cow nasties. If you are lucky enough to have a clean cow dairy near you, get a couple of gallons and store it in 20.oz. bottles.


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## DQ (Aug 4, 2006)

MamaDee said:


> Thanks, Paul. But what I'm asking, too, is what about those goats who test negative at the time, but are actually positive b/c of the limitations of the test (not from "catching" it from another CAE goat). If you are only "managing" the cae goats you know of, then you can have kids that are positive that you don't know of and keep on passing it on.
> 
> Dee


first off the odds of a false negative using the elisa test are very small if the goat is at least 6-8 months old and was presumably infected through colostrum . and even if one somehow slipped through (6%) it is not as if all is lost. if one goat in your hypothetical herd of ten passes it on. well....thats a heck of alot better then ten goats in your herd of ten. you test again each year. each subsequent negative tests makes it even more assured that it is truly negative until at somepoint you get to stop worrying. it is not easily passed from goat to goat or on your shoes or anything like cl is.


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

betsy h. said:


> I know one KS Nubian breeder who has huge ads in magazines that says 'we are CAE free for 6/7/8+ yrs.'. Sorry, no such thing, IMHO.


Why? Do you believe all herds have CAE+ goats?

I certainly don't and I hope I never do. I only buy from tested, trusted herds and I test my own whole-herd regularly to maintain that negative status.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

6, 7 or 8 years is easy....it's the 'never have had CAE" and the breeder has had goats for 20 years. WE all had CAE, most of us have had CL......a large percentage of dairy goat breeders do not test and do not have whole herd negative results. Asking for G6S, CAE etc...will also all of a sudden give you goats who are no longer for sale or who have kids unavailable  Vicki


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

that's it vicki, that's the answer. when they say they've never had it.


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