# 1200 watts



## neverfear (Sep 26, 2006)

Just in time for a brutal winter;

Adjustable;


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## neverfear (Sep 26, 2006)

It took me about 6-1/2 months so far, but I should be completely finished by this weekend. If I had it to do all over again, I would do it differently; learning from experience. 

Ask me how!?


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Might want to read this http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html

That battery bank looks like a disaster waiting to happen. I seen on fused links with all those parallel strings.

WWW


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## neverfear (Sep 26, 2006)

The batteries were the first item on the list. I cut all the cables and soldered all the lugs myself. 2 pounds of solder, @$35. bucks a pound. It was modeled directly from one identical as this that got 12 years service, 24-7 year around, and it could have gone another 2 years without replacing the batteries.

However, you are correct. I would never do it this way again, not that it's not safe, or a disaster waiting to happen, the facts are in, the data shows that it's plenty good enough, and will most likely out last me. But from what I have learned, I could have done it a lot less expensive and time consuming.

Edit to add;

btw, those are 24 - GC235's from NAPA. 235 amp hr, for $105.00 each, plus $15.00 core charge. Can't beat that eh!


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## neverfear (Sep 26, 2006)

wy_white_wolf said:


> Might want to read this http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html
> 
> 
> WWW


OK, I read it, and Indeed, my main feeds are taken from diagonally opposite posts. 

No worries!


neverfear


:rock:


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Yes WWW is quite correct . .That battery bank is a disaster waiting to happen.....
All it takes is for just one of those batteries to go bad and your whole bank goes down
Your "bargain" batteries are just fine for a "car" but the very thin plates in batteries like that are very poor for a "deep cycle" bank.
The life of that bank will be short
Your money would have been better spent on golf car batteries or better yet the L16 type bat.

Sorry this not what you wanted to hear, but it is the truth .....
This comes from many many people who have gone before you . . . .and learned the hard way.....


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## lynnemabry (Dec 28, 2013)

Is the battery cabinet vented?


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## neverfear (Sep 26, 2006)

The errors and corrections I'm making have nothing to do with the battery bank, other than, I was told it would be half the price to make up all the interconnects myself. WRONG! It's half the price to purchase them already made up. Oh, and I would have used DC breakers instead of fuse blocks and fuses.

Also, I had no idea that my OutBack has built in switch over. And I didn't know about the OutBack Mate, that the Mate steps down the OutBack charger to except what my Honda 2000 puts out. There's no need for the other 45 amp charger (or a bigger generator) with the "OutBack Mate". 

Anyway, It's all for back-up, and back-up for the back-up's. It's because I live in the Colorado Rockies at 8000 feet, and that my house burnt down to the ground and I lost everything in the "High Park Fire" 2 years ago. I'm not going through that again, I'll stay and fight it if that ever happens again.


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## neverfear (Sep 26, 2006)

I have very specific reasoning for choosing the way I'm doing things, and seeing as how several of you wanna 'pick-a-fight', I'll tell you'all the way I see it.

In a 'end-of-the-world' survivalist situation, necessary items for survival and comfort will be scarce. Think about it. If I were to set up my battery bank in say 3 strings, 24 volt, 48 volt, what-ever, what good will that do me? Look around you, look everywhere, no matter where you look, you would be able to find billions of fixtures, components, what have you, all in 12 volt. Just about every kind of car, truck, or any kind of automotive and/or RV's, all have 12 volts. What ever I might need would be readily available, and so easy and fast to 'plug-in' to my house, (battery bank).

Get the picture yet?

Got lights?


:rock:


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## gpforet (Dec 24, 2013)

And that's probably why the pushback you're getting. There seems to be a very differnt approach to shtf solar backup design vs. Off-grid continuous use systems. Most all continuous use designs will op for longer strings and higher voltage for better efficiency, better bank protection from failed cells, and lower cable size requirements and then select purpose built, high quality and robust components to utilize the higher voltage. While the argument of baing able to scavage 12v devices is valid, 115v devices are even more available, and the reduced cable size needs of higher voltage banks, that money could go to backup/spare inverters if/when needed. I spent alot of time debating this with myself before deciding to go with a 24v bank on my small off-grid install. My end thinking was that my battery bank is the most expensive and most critical component and therefore should be configured to minimize risk of failure. And that always leads to longer strings and higher voltage. 

[QUOTE=neverfear;7260021]I have very specific reasoning for choosing the way I'm doing things, and seeing as how several of you wanna 'pick-a-fight', I'll tell you'all the way I see it.

In a 'end-of-the-world' survivalist situation, necessary items for survival and comfort will be scarce. Think about it. If I were to set up my battery bank in say 3 strings, 24 volt, 48 volt, what-ever, what good will that do me? Look around you, look everywhere, no matter where you look, you would be able to find billions of fixtures, components, what have you, all in 12 volt. Just about every kind of car, truck, or any kind of automotive and/or RV's, all have 12 volts. What ever I might need would be readily available, and so easy and fast to 'plug-in' to my house, (battery bank).

Get the picture yet?

Got lights?


:rock:[/QUOTE]


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

neverfear said:


> *deleted post WAS here*.


The question wasn't asked in a confrontational manner, so why answer it in one ? There is a wealth of experience in this forum that won't be available is you walk in and pizz off folks from the get-go.

It would have probably helped, in addition to the photos which are always appreciated, if you had listed your components and system specs as well. Personally, I couldn't tell how your battery bank was wired. 

From what I gather this far down, you have 12 strings of 2/6v on your batteries ?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Ok my bad on the GC number.......

Any good reputable battery manufacture does not recommend paralleling more than 2 or 3 batteries. 

Time has proven this over and over from hot shots who think otherwise.
You would be wise to listen too those who have gone before you.

Just one sick battery in the middle of that mess will pull down the whole bank.

Through my 100 amp battery voltage balancer I have run my 25 amp water pressure pump and a chest fridge for years off my 24v batt bank . . . . . . .so much for your 12v only argument...

Should you chose to not listen to the advice of those who have gone before you is your choice....


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## neverfear (Sep 26, 2006)

I made my choice a long time ago. I, and others like me (my neighbors) have lived OFF GRID for over 20 years. I chose to do it this way from experience. I know for fact what works for me, from real first hand experience. No one can tell me my way won't work, because I know for fact that it does.

You, and or anyone else on this form, I do not know. I don't know what anyone else's agendas are. I didn't come here for advise from anyone, not now, not ever. The only reason I posted is because someone here might not have the money that it takes to do it the way the so called pros do it. I'm showing a system that works for thousands less than those that make a fortune advising on how to do it 'their way'.


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## gpforet (Dec 24, 2013)

I call BS on this. While a GC battery may have "some" storage capacity left after 14 years of service, It would be operating at less that 25% of it's rated capacity. Which means the battery bank was severely oversized to begin with, or the loads are far, far below it's initial rated capacity. Either way, wasteful and inefficient.



neverfear said:


> What's wrong with your reading comprehension? GC stands for golf cart, and the identical battery bank has already been proven for fact to last at least 14 years in and for full time around the clock years, not just for back-up, which mine is intended for only.


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## gpforet (Dec 24, 2013)

Wait a minute,

24x235ah in a two string arrangement is 2620 ah. A c/8 charge amperage would be 327.5Am and c/12 would be 218A.

1. In parallel you're only gonna get 40A max out of those panels. Even with a good MPPT controller converting the voltage to current you're gonna get less than 80A. You gonna need about 2-4 times as many panels to charge the batteries at the proper charge current. With your current panels, you'll only be able to do, at best, C/32 meaning lots of electrolyte stratification, increased sulfation of the plates, and shorter battery life.

2. You gonna need a bigger charge controller. Or 2, or 3.

But what do we know?



neverfear said:


> The batteries were the first item on the list. I cut all the cables and soldered all the lugs myself. 2 pounds of solder, @$35. bucks a pound. It was modeled directly from one identical as this that got 12 years service, 24-7 year around, and it could have gone another 2 years without replacing the batteries.
> 
> However, you are correct. I would never do it this way again, not that it's not safe, or a disaster waiting to happen, the facts are in, the data shows that it's plenty good enough, and will most likely out last me. But from what I have learned, I could have done it a lot less expensive and time consuming.
> 
> ...


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## gpforet (Dec 24, 2013)

But it may matter to others who would foolishly follow your design approach.



neverfear said:


> I couldn't care any less what you call it, your opinion doesn't matter to me.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

Some folks think they are the experts. Their attitude is "My way or the highway". 

You posted what you have done. I can see responders getting all insistent if there was a safety issue but I don't see one in the replys. I doubt you are going to replace all your batteries and rewire everything now that it's done.

You put together a lower cost system. Congratulations on finishing the project. Now there are only a few possible outcomes. It might work just fine, it could quit working, or it could blow up. This is called learning by experience. Please post in a few years and let us know how it worked out. 

Where would we be if the inventors had simply followed the experts?


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## neverfear (Sep 26, 2006)

I installed a Trimetric before I lit up the OutBack Inverter/Charger and battery bank 3-4 months ago. The installations and applications are absolutely wonderful, working perfectly. I'm just now finishing up the last string, the solar panels. I have had them in the store room for over 6 months, and it's exciting to finally see how nice the installation went. I purchased the OutBack Mate2 last night with the one day air shipping option. It will be here tomorrow, then the OutBack charge controller and Mate installations should be complete by the weekend.

I'm gonna flip the main, and tell the power company to shove it!

Yippie!


:rock:


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Nimrod said:


> Some folks think they are the experts. Their attitude is "My way or the highway".
> 
> You posted what you have done. I can see responders getting all insistent if there was a safety issue but I don't see one in the replys. I doubt you are going to replace all your batteries and rewire everything now that it's done.
> 
> ...


But there is at least 1 major safety issue. All those parralleled batteries and no fused inconnects on them. 
Take a guess what happens if 1 battery has an internal short?









WWW


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Not having the Mate from the git go shows a lack of doing beforehand home work.

Yes most posts here are ment to keep others from going with a very faulty design.

Yes just one battery going bad can have catastrophic results when so many are paralleled unfused


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

neverfear said:


> Deleted post was quoted here


Please point out where I've told a lie?

WW


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

So that others can understand what I'm trying to point out.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_11/5.html

WWW


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Clearly this fellow already knows it all, and it would be a waste of time to comment further.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Amen Andy


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

And for anybody that has read this far the intention here is to totally discourage anyone from setting up a energy system with more than 2 paralleled batteries.
It has been proven time and again that in the long run it does not work and is a bad idea.......


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Thanks to all you experienced solar guys, for jumping in and protecting us solar "sheep" who are still neophytes.


Tim


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## gpforet (Dec 24, 2013)

Tim, I'm still learning about this stuff but have a 30 year background in electricity and electronics. And many of us have learned the hard way regarding which configurations work best and provide the most return on investment.

The system I'm building now (my second) started life in an excel spreadsheet, performing load estimates, desired degree of discharge of the batteries, environmental considerations, and number of days of backup without solar input. This data drove battery bank size and configuration and inverter selection. It is from this that panels were selected to provide adequate charging rate to the bank. Finally, a controller was selected which can handle the necessary power throughput. Throughout this process, equipment and personnel protection were integrated into the design.

Then budget reality kicked in, and compromises were made. What started as a system to run a freezer and fridge off-grid turned into a system to only run my freezer. But the factors used in designing the system did not change, especially regarding safety considerations and the desire to extract as much life and performance as possible from the investment.

The point being, these calculations (and associated costs) are not driven by some agenda (whatever that meant), but by well established principles such as ohms law, battery performance data supplied by the manufacturer, and panel and controller data, and accepted practices for safety and protection. and in hindsight, I've spent far more time on developing and refining the design than I'm spending on the install.

I think solar has it's place in a homesteading, self-reliant living scenario as part of a larger energy management plan. And I'm a bag fan, and promote it's use where appropriate. However, solar is not some magic bean. To the newcomer, it is surprisingly expensive and most have unrealistic expectations (due, in part, to posts such as the OP). And misinformation about it's cost, application and capability harms both the consumer and the industry.

The greatest lesson I've learned implementing solar into our small homestead is that it is far cheaper to reduce consumption that generate power.

My system generates and stores a little over 1kw/day, with an additional 1kw/day dumped into the house via a 300w grid-tie being used to capture any excess PV output available after the batteries are topped off. Total cost after the 30% fed tax rebate and not including the new freezer is a little over $1,500. And I further expect a battery bank replacement in 7 years at a cost of $950. If I were pulling this power from the grid it would cost me right around $ 0.20/day. Extrapolated over a 21 year life expectancy of the system, with 2 battery bank replacements, energy costs from the grid would have to double for it to be a break-even proposition.

Bottom line: off-grid solar, while providing some level of energy independence, is not cheap, and definitely not as cheap as the energy we buy from the grid. 
It is low maintenance, but that maintenance must be performed or battery replacement costs will skyrocket. 
It is quiet. 
It is energy positive (it will produce 4 times more energy over it's lifespan, than the energy that went into making it). 
It is carbon negative, based on coal energy (over the life of the system, the energy produced from the system will be be 8 times more carbon clean than the carbon footprint (to make the panel+the equivalent power generated by coal+the carbon footprint of battery manufacture). 
Lead-Acid batteries are at least 95% recycleable.



tarbe said:


> Thanks to all you experienced solar guys, for jumping in and protecting us solar "sheep" who are still neophytes.
> 
> 
> Tim


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

gpforet said:


> Bottom line: off-grid solar, while providing some level of energy independence, is not cheap, and definitely not as cheap as the energy we buy from the grid.



I will have to spend a minimum of $10k just to get power to my place, so solar becomes a bit more economically viable for me because of this fact. The tax credit certainly helps, too! But, if one does not have the cash to essentially pre-pay 10 to 20 years of electric bills, it could be a tough nut to crack.

The lesser scar on the land (not having to bulldoze a 30 foot by 1,600 foot right of way) is also a plus for me.

Thanks for your thoughts,


Tim


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## gpforet (Dec 24, 2013)

A similar situation led me down the road to solar. The buried cable feeding power to my horse barn was disabled by pine tree roots. And after determining the cost to replace the 300' of direct burial cable, off-grid solar was chosen. 200w panel, deep-cycle battery, 12v LED lighting, and small inverter amounted to the same cost as replacing the cable.

Seeing it as a prepayment of 10-20 years of electric bills is a good way to look at it. And indeed, when having to factor long feed runs of infrastructure cost, it begins to line up more with grid-based power.

1600 feet of power line will pay for quite a bit of solar 



tarbe said:


> I will have to spend a minimum of $10k just to get power to my place, so solar becomes a bit more economically viable for me because of this fact. The tax credit certainly helps, too! But, if one does not have the cash to essentially pre-pay 10 to 20 years of electric bills, it could be a tough nut to crack.
> 
> The lesser scar on the land (not having to bulldoze a 30 foot by 1,600 foot right of way) is also a plus for me.
> 
> ...


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