# Help me pick a breed.



## cnsper (Sep 6, 2012)

I will give you a little back ground. I am at the north end of the big belt mountains in Montana about 1/2 way between Helena and Great Falls. I am single but I have 20 acres of mountain land that I am in the process of creating a sustainable off the grid arrangement for myself. So far I have Ducks, Chickens and Rabbits. Now I am looking to decide what kind of beef critter I need to look at.

I have been looking at the Dexter, Low Line Angus and the Highlander.

I want something that is going to do well with minimal input from me and I plan on 1 bull and maybe 2 cows as the base. They will have approximately 19 acres to range on. It varies from open meadow to pine forest.

I like the size of the Dexter and the ability to milk if I want to get some for the home or friends. I like the fact that they browse/forage well. I like the low impact they have on the land.

The Angus, Well I really do not know a whole lot about the breed. 

Highlander, a friend has some and they taste really good. I have also seen the aftermath of a pack of dogs trying to attack the calves. His bull had 2 down and blood on his horns.

That is a good trait as have bear and cat around here. I have no doubt that they could take on a black bear. Grizzly could go either way with that horn reach of theirs.

I am still in the decision phase as I have to get the fencing up first and I think I am going with high tensile fencing. This may eliminate the bear issue all together.

Now before all your breed purists get into this, I don't care if a cow is registered. It tastes no different from a registered one. I don't care if they are show quality as I am not selling or showing breeders. I don't care if they are perfect in composition either.

I do however have some concern about the genetic issues associated with the Dexter. 

Only the 2 cows will be bred and when I need a replacement, I will go out and buy another one. The main thing is that they calve well and mother well. If I start to end up with too many, I will have to have more BBQ's. I do not want to ever let it get to the place where the land is over grazed.


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## lakeportfarms (Apr 23, 2009)

We have both Dexters and Highlands. We used to have one lowline Angus.

These pros and cons are compared to most other breeds. The Highland, Dexter, and Galloway all have pretty similar pros and cons compared to other breeds.

Pros on the Highland:

1) Hardy, will handle the Montana winters well.
2) Does well with less than ideal forage and likes to browse.
3) Delicious
4) Can take pretty good care of itself with respect to predators.
5) Long lifespan and calves well into late teens and longer in most instances.
6) Easy calving, good mothering

Cons:

1) Matures very slowly compared to other breeds.
2) Matures very slowly compared to other breeds.
3) Matures very slowly compared to other breeds. (Multiple listing of cons are not a mistake 
4) If you're uncomfortable around horns.

Dexters...

1) Many of the same pros as Highlands, but they're perhaps a bit more fragile. Being a horned breed, you can still keep the horns on them for their protection.
2) It's a little easier to find Dexters who have been milked if you're looking for more mature cows to start with. We've milked our Highlands too and they're pretty similar in milk production as the Dexters, but you do have a bit more hair to work around.

Cons:

1) Finding them for a good price
2) PHA and Chondro testing is important, but you can work around both issues without too much difficulty now that DNA testing is available.

I won't really get into the Lowlines, because I think the Highlands and Dexters (or possibly Galloways) are your best choice.

I'm sure others will chip in....


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## cnsper (Sep 6, 2012)

LOL horns are only scary if they are coming at you. Worked dairies and livestock auctions all through school. All of our steers always had their horns. So NOPE! Horns don't bother me at all.

A friend has a dozen or so head of highlanders that I can probably get a bull or heifers from.


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## lakeportfarms (Apr 23, 2009)

If you have such ready access to the Highlands and can wait a while for your calves to grow and mature, I would say they're your best bet then. Ours are very docile, and we don't worry at all about them coming for us, as we are at the top of the pecking order with them. It's when you are in the middle of two of them establishing their pecking order with each other, or on the opposite side of one that is being shoved aside (toward you) and their main concern is to get away, but you happen to be in the escape route they've chosen.

By the way, they don't just protect their calves. My wife and I were struggling with a new acquisition once, a mini-Hereford heifer that was just a nut. To make a long story short, our matriarch Highland cow with a huge horn spread went over the fence and took her horns to pin the heifer to the ground, which allowed us to get control of her with the lead and halter. At first we were mad at her for "interfering", but we realized a bit later that our Highland was doing what she felt would protect us. We've seen other less obvious examples at other times, but she was clearly helping us.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

20 acres of mountain land I do not think would suport even one dexter...check with the neighbors see how many cows they run to the acre.....I have heard of 100 acres to the cow ..thats not counting the months of deep snow . as they move them to the low land.......if thats the case you would have to feed and buy more hay then just buying steaks


but highlands because of the high cold weather would be my choice
and I have never owned one


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

If conditions are rough, weather is harsh, and you don't want to have a lot of input, then get range herefords. Not the show type, but the range cattle. They take care of themselves and their calves.

I don't think you are going to grow a lot of cattle on such a small place unless you have irrigated pasture. You'll be buying hay for the winter.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I will toss my vote in with Oregon Woodsmoke on this one. Those old herefords are hard to beat... they will be fat and slick on range that other breeds starve to death on, they do well with cold climates, and produce every bit a good of steaks as any other breed does. They were once considered to be "the breed" until folks got all weird about fat... todays market puts them at the bottom of the list because they do tend to have plenty of fat well marbled throughout their meat.


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## arnie (Apr 26, 2012)

If you want to have a cow to milk and for beef production there are the small milking dexters .keep your eyes open perhaps there will be a milkcow of the dual porpous varity I like my brown swiss crossed with a beef bull perhaps your neabour has cattle and most farmers don't mind shareing if they are friendly there are also the milking shorthorns or a cross of a herford and jersey .a milk cow is a great addition to a homestead giving enough milk for you and her calf to fill your freezer but also extra to help feed a pig chickens ect. A dual purpous or cross breed may fit right in for you as they did for me and uur ansestors


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## cnsper (Sep 6, 2012)

Herefords are out, they are just too big. They would just tear the ground up with all that weight. The one side of the hill is open with grass while the other side has a lot of pine with very good grass growing under it. I don't plan on raising a lot of animals. 3 breeding head and 2 finishing at the most every year. May be good enough with one bull and one cow but if her calf dies I am out for that year. With all the dry weather over here, this year is out of the question as I want it to have time to recover. With the Dexters and the Highland being able to forage well, even on the brush here they will do well.

Dairy cows are out because of their size also. Lots of loose sandy soil to contend with the weight of the cows.

On the issue of space, you can run one dexter on 1/2 acre of pasture and I figure my land is worth 1/4 or 2 acres per cow. I will be running a max of 5 head at any one time so with that it equals 4 acres per cow. More than that if you flattened out the hills then I probably have a total surface area of more than 30 acres. Land is measured on a 2 dimensional plane and my land is 3 dimensional. The back side seems to have a spring feeding it that keeps the grass green longer than the south facing side of the hill. That and the shade from the pines.

There are 2 cons that I have issues with on the Highland and Dexter

1. The highland cattle are VERY rough on young trees. I want them to replenish for future heating needs and the Highland will kill young trees by rubbing on them all the time. They tend to leave the older trees alone. Maybe because they are not push overs? I have seen how destructive even a highland can be. They may be short but they pack on the muscle.
2. The genetics with the Dexter. This can be worked around with DNA testing.

Even with all that I am leaning towards the Dexter because of the size. Some say you finish them to 24 months but a 5-700 lb cow would do me fine as it is only one person eating here and with the chickens and rabbit I would have plenty of meat. I do plan on having to purchase hay in the winter because of the snow. There is also a lot of natural protection for them to get out of the wind with a hollow surrounded on 3 sides by cliffs and some very large pines in there. Probably build them a Log shelter in there.


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

There are a lot of Dexters in Canada. Some in Alaska.

Horned would be best if there are predators around.


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## Ruralnurse (Jun 23, 2011)

Hi,

I live in Montana too and we are looking at cattle before too long. We have thought about Corrientes. 

I know, I know, everyone thinks they are just for roping and rodeos. But I have done some reading. They get about 1,000 lbs. according to what I have read, which is about the same as a Highlander (from what I have read). They are very hardy, minimal calving problems, great mothers and can produce and raise a calf on pretty poor ground. There beef is leaner and I understand if you cross them to a nice angus you get some great highbred vigor. They do not have the long coat but there are lots where I live and we get plenty of snow and they do fine. Additionally they are less expensive to get started with. 

Ruralnurse


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## ramiller5675 (Mar 31, 2009)

Ruralnurse said:


> Hi,
> 
> I live in Montana too and we are looking at cattle before too long. We have thought about Corrientes.
> 
> ...


The Corrientes I've seen looked like they were about 600 lbs. at the most (isn't that why they use them in calf roping events?).

And, I'd hate to be around during calving season if they were bred to an Angus bull. It might give you some calves with some hybrid vigor, work, but you'd probably wear out a calf puller and still lose some of those little cows and some of their calves.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I will toss my vote in with Oregon Woodsmoke on this one. Those old herefords are hard to beat... they will be fat and slick on range that other breeds starve to death on, they do well with cold climates, and produce every bit a good of steaks as any other breed does. They were once considered to be "the breed" until folks got all weird about fat... todays market puts them at the bottom of the list because they do tend to have plenty of fat well marbled throughout their meat.


Except for that nasty fat in the center of a good rib eye that you find in angus beef.


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## Ruralnurse (Jun 23, 2011)

ramiller5675 said:


> The Corrientes I've seen looked like they were about 600 lbs. at the most (isn't that why they use them in calf roping events?).
> 
> And, I'd hate to be around during calving season if they were bred to an Angus bull. It might give you some calves with some hybrid vigor, work, but you'd probably wear out a calf puller and still lose some of those little cows and some of their calves.


Where I am in Montana most of the ones I have seen advertised have been bred to an angus. They must not have too many problems if they keep doing it??? I just "googled" the size and it said not over 1000 lbs so I imagine there is a range. I have seen cow/calf pairs bred back to angus available. Perhaps they breed to another corrientes for a first calf. 

Not far from where I live (NW Montana):

http://spokane.craigslist.org/grd/3263749197.html


Ruralnurse


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

There was a herd of corrientes not far from me. The guy bought worn-out rodeo calves, reconditioned them and kept them for breeding. He sold his calves to the rodeo.

He told me that Corrientes are the fastest breed of cattle. That and their nice spread of horns are their attraction to the rodeo. They are fast enough to make the chase interesting and those horns are so nice for roping.

I didn't know that anyone raised them for beef. I wonder how good their beef is? I doubt that you'd get enough milk from a corriente cow to make it worthwhile to milk one.


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## cnsper (Sep 6, 2012)

Geezz then I would have to hire a rodeo clown.. LOL


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## SpaceCadet12364 (Apr 27, 2003)

The reason highlands are rough on young trees is the eat them. Ours eat the young shoots and leaves. They ate a young willow tree.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

A few thoughts, which probably won't interest you. Usually people have their minds made up, which is fine. Do what you want.

Besides horns, size also matters for cattle being able to defend themselves. So small with horns might not be that great. Goats have horns.

You are probably not the first one to raise cattle in the area - do your neighbors need horned cattle to survive?

Don't assume you can get milk from all Dexters any more than any other beef cow. Different breeders breed for different things. I am currently milking a beef cow, a British White. You can milk any cow if you want, but you might short their calf.

All cattle do browsing. My lowline angus or British White or jersey/hereford cross have all eaten trees.

The hair on Highlanders bothers me. They came from the Scottish Highlands, which is a cool, cloudy, and rainy climate. The hair was to shed rain. Cattle generally have difficulty cooling themselves, as their rumen is a heat producer. Long hair and black hair result in more heat stress. Heat stress starts at just 70 degrees. Though you are cooler in Montana, even an Angus would be happier in most of the winter than in the summer.

Everyone seems to worry about cattle handling the winters, but don't think about the summers. I've seen people recommending highlanders for Alabama and wonder what they're thinking. Here's an article on heat stress:
Cattle Today: REDUCE HEAT STRESS IN CATTLE TO MAINTAIN PROFITS

One bull for 2 cows isn't very efficient. The bull is taking the feed a cow or two could use to produce something and he's only working a few hours a year. Not to mention the tendency to take off on breeding escapades and tear up stuff. You might consider AI if you can find it anywhere nearby. That allows you to pick any bull in the country and improve quality.

Lowlines are generally better meat producers, but if you wanted more milk, breed them to jersey to get a cross. My lowline/jersey cow was my favorite, and when bred to a beef bull, produced a great, meaty calf. Or you could buy a jersey heifer and breed to a lowline bull, keep the calf, and sell the cow.

I have a hereford/jersey heifer now. I could use smaller size. My next project might be going to a red angus breeder near here and get his smallest heifer, breed her young to jersey or miniature jersey, then sell her after she gives me a heifer calf (hopefully).

The main problem with smaller stock is your breeding choices are more limited, and quality can suffer. Which is why I've gone to breeding with smaller framed regular cattle as seen at pharocattle.com. Most small timers aren't as picky as me.


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## cnsper (Sep 6, 2012)

I am one of those ones that are not that picky. I understand that AI may be cheaper but the closest vet to me is at least 50 miles away either north or south. My thoughts were to start out with the 3 and see how the land does and if there is a market, I can increase the size of the herd. No one around me has cattle that I am aware of except the big ranches because of the cost of fencing these mountains/hills. Some steep enough to curl the horns on a highlander... LOL

As for the cattle around here, the big ranches all have polled herds. But, they bring the cows down to the lower pastures for months for calving. They are literally on the other side of the road from the range land and the other side of the pasture is bordered by the missouri river. Most of what we have around here is black bear and mountain lion and an 800 lb bull is going to give them a fight. He might not win but there will be a fight. I have seen bears move out of an area they were frequenting when the highlanders moved in.

Lastly, I am not going for efficiency but sustainability. I am not going to be dependent on someone coming to breed the cows. I want a real survivable homestead. The bull may become tempermental and difficult at times but there are no cows either direction from me for him to run to. The closest cattle are on the other side of a 640 acre section of land from me.

Milk is the least important thing for me, the land is the most important. Not having cattle tear that up is the priority. It does me no good if they destroy the land so that it will not support them. I have seen the highlanders destroy a tree and not take the first bite of it. They just killed the young tree by rubbing on it.

What some don't seem to get is that if I start out with 3, that is what I intend to keep. 10-15 years from now I get new breeders or keep 2 heifers and get a new bull. Every year the offspring are to be destined for freezer camp. There is a big difference in need there as there will be no breeding for improved genetics but for steaks. The mindset is totally different than someone that is raising a large herd of animals. If I need new blood then I sell, trade or eat the bull that I have and get another one.

In the end, it is a sustainable homestead that I am looking for not a commercial or prize winning herd. Hell there are probably many culls out there that would suit my purposes just fine.


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## Dreamfarm (Dec 10, 2011)

DJ and RuralNurse I am in Stevens County Wa. There is a Sale on red Angus Lowline in Yelm in a few weeks. Lowline Cattle, Lowline Angus, American Lowline Angus, Lazy G Lowline I was looking at what they have, waiting for the sale catalog in the mail. i am considering the black angus lowlines myself, but will be watching this auction closely to see the prices running through here.


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## cnsper (Sep 6, 2012)

Funny and a small world, I grew up in Yelm.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

You don't want to depend on an AI guy but you will buy hay? Not all vets do AI. My AI guy was independent from any vet office. He drove 80 miles to get to me and it cost $60 tops. Much cheaper than a vet visit from 15 miles away. And either is cheaper than keeping a bull around for 2 cows if you are buying hay.


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## cnsper (Sep 6, 2012)

Ok, what part of sustainable is so hard to understand? One issue at a time. There will be another piece of land for hay and crops etc. I can go cut grass by hand and make hay if needed but I can not magically make my cows pregnant. I am eventually getting to the point where I buy nothing. Even if you grow your own hay it costs you money so you are buying hay. Tractors, bailers, mowers, rakes, fuel etc. Tell me that tractor costs less than a bull.

Broadly defined, homesteading is a lifestyle of simple self-sufficiency. The keyword is self sufficiency and you can not do that without a bull. I thought that this was a homesteading forum, apparently I was wrong.

Once again I don't care if it costs more to raise the bull. I want them to sustain the meat production without assistance.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

If you think that cattle less than a mile away will not be close enough to tempt a bull you need to learn more about cattle.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Proper management is far more important than the cattle's weight in regards to damaging your land. Overgrazing will do far more damage than will periodic pugging. Learn to use M.I.G.

I'd run what my neighbors run, within reason. Locally sourced cattle will be adapted already.


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## cnsper (Sep 6, 2012)

pancho said:


> If you think that cattle less than a mile away will not be close enough to tempt a bull you need to learn more about cattle.


For your information it is more than a mile. More like a mile and a half and they are only there in the spring to calve.You see I am on the next section of land past that square mile.

I am not asking HOW to raise cattle, I am asking what breed. I have never worked with these but I have seen the Highlanders. This is probably a 2 year process for me as I still have to fence the entire place and locate suitable livestock and I am in no hurry.

I give up. Apparently there are only a few people here that give advice to answer a questions instead of their own opinions (I thank them) of how someone else should raise their animals because "their" way is the best. Most of the answers come from a business mindset and not a sustainable homestead mindset.


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## cnsper (Sep 6, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Proper management is far more important than the cattle's weight in regards to damaging your land. Overgrazing will do far more damage than will periodic pugging.
> 
> I'd run what my neighbors run, within reason. Locally sourced cattle will be adapted already.


Well I have all 3 within 50 miles of me so they are all locally sourced.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

cnsper said:


> I give up. Apparently there are only a few people here that give advice to answer a questions instead of their own opinions (I thank them) of how someone else should raise their animals because "their" way is the best. *Most of the answers come from a business mindset and not a sustainable homestead mindset.*


I understand what you're saying, but really, a homestead is a business. Far too many 'steaders treat it as a hobby. Understand that businesses have different goals and forge ahead with yours.


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## SteveO (Apr 14, 2009)

evening,
I have lowline and am sold on them
just as you seem to be sold on Highlands.
I think you need to look at the time line for haveing one or 2 in the freezer per year
1 bull
2 cows
2 calfs 1 yr old
2 2 yr old for the freezer
so you really are looking at 7 animals and going hungry for the better part of 2 years
lowline mature faster you get a 1/2 lowline and stay in the 1000lb area.
Either way 19 acres will only get you grass for about 3 months a year even with 3 or 4
I would look at raising calves to eat and stop there.
Steve
2


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## tonyb (Jul 4, 2011)

We have Dexters and really like them. They are very light on the land; pugging has not been a problem in our clay soil. Their small size means smaller shelters, smaller pastures, smaller feed rations, smaller stock trailer, smaller water tanks, smaller freezer, etc. Can't say whether they taste better or worse than Highlands, since I haven't eaten either yet. We're still working on that. 

I wasn't very satisfied with AI. We had one cow, so catching her in heat was difficult. That means a call to the vet for some Lutalyse to synchronize her cycle. Two injections 12 days apart. Three days later, a call to the AI tech. Then another call to the vet for a preg check, and do it all over again if she's open.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

I can understand what you are saying about sustainability. I'll give you an example. Our cattle operation is a cow/calf operation. It is grass-fed. No grains, no commercial feeds. We have introduced NO new blood into the herd since January 1998. We even kept our best herd sire for 16 years. When other ranchers laughed at us, we would laugh our way to the bank. We ended up with great genetics and sold great at the sale barns. Our calves had better frames than any cattle around.

We still have bought no new bulls since 1998. 

You can AI and you can learn to do it yourself. If you take a course on AI, it will cost less than a good quality bull will cost you. 

As far as damage to land. I don't see the weight of the animal causing more damage to a meadow than any smaller breeds. We have the old line Herefords that have good frames but are not quite as large as the polled Herefords. They are good mothers and easy to keep.

However, I can tell from your postings that you had your mind made up before you even asked the questions here. You asked for opinions and everyone that gives you an opinion has been shot down.

If you want to buy to keep sustainable, you need to first find out for sure what your land will carry year round. Then decide what breeds will best fill your needs and be suitable to the land. It doesn't matter what any of us think if you do your homework.

Whether it's 1 mile or 1-1/2 mile, a bull will smell a cow in heat. You will need good fencing. 

As for buying hay costing less than making hay. You have no idea. I have less than 3K invested in hay equipment, if I wanted to bale all small squares. The WD cost $700, the baler was less than $400, the swather was about $1100. However, I use the square baler only after we have our big round bales put up for winter. Then I bale the extra hay in small squares to sell. Off one 40 acre hay field, I made double what my equipment and fuel cost in one year. Ask others around, in a year like this one, people had to sell a lot of animals due to the hay shortage and not being able to buy hay.

Our farms are almost self-sustaining so, I can understand what you are looking for. But, exotics and mini's are not always the best bet to go with. 

And... by the way... you can milk ANY breed of cow. With any cow, whether Holstein, Jersey, Highlands, or Dexters, you have to start working with her when she is a young heifer if you want to milk.

Good luck. I hope it works out for you.


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

You can milk any mammal.

You can milk a cat, but you won't get very much milk and you'll have one really ticked off cat.


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## cnsper (Sep 6, 2012)

PaulNKS said:


> I can understand what you are saying about sustainability. I'll give you an example. Our cattle operation is a cow/calf operation. It is grass-fed. No grains, no commercial feeds. We have introduced NO new blood into the herd since January 1998. We even kept our best herd sire for 16 years. When other ranchers laughed at us, we would laugh our way to the bank. We ended up with great genetics and sold great at the sale barns. Our calves had better frames than any cattle around.
> 
> We still have bought no new bulls since 1998.
> 
> ...


As to the weight of the animal, that does make a difference here. It is very loose and rocky soil and there is no pasture, it is all hill. One side of the hill with the lesser amount of grass, I slide down myself it is that steep and loose. There is good grass growing on it but not enough to make it stable. On the other side is a different story though. That is why I picked the 3 breeds that I did because of the weight of the animal and the lower feed requirements. 

The fencing will be as good as I can make it. I plan to start with 7 strand high tensile with 4 solar chargers, one for each side that is a max of 1000 feet in length. This way if one charger dies I can use one of 2 others until I get a replacement. Or use them to power one round the border wire each, I have not decided what yet. That would be less than a mile that each charger would have to handle.

As for the haying equipment, you forgot the tractor. Granted it is not much in the whole scheme of things but it is another investment. For the immediate future though I will buy hay until I have the land to produce my own on.

Someone posted that we get 2-3 months of grass, you need to get out more. People say Montana and they automatically thing 3-4 feet of snow. Well here there is rarely more than 1 foot at any one time and it comes and goes. It may stay for 3 months straight in the middle of the winter but it is never as bad as people picture.

My mind was not totally made up but people also have to realize that I am feeding ONE person so a 6-800 lb cow would be better for me than a 12-1600 lb one also. Not to mention that I will also have chicken, rabbit and duck to eat. I will admit that I was and am leaning towards the Dexter but also realize that milk is at the bottom of my list of concerns. I like dual purpose animals or better that is why I am getting some Buckeye chickens. I know that you can eat and get eggs from any chicken but they fit my needs about as perfect as you can. I was leaning towards the dark cornish before I found the Buckeyes.

My reasoning for the 2 cows was that there will always be a backup should one die for some reason be it natural or predator. Same reason you keep 2 bucks for your rabbits or 2-3 roosters for your hens, so you are never out of production. Now the cost of keeping 2 bulls is out of the question and unreasonable at this point. If nothing else, I can sell the offspring or beef if both survive. Maybe even barter for something else that I need. I have had good luck doing that. I think I even know someone that would be interested in the second calf already. I have traded rabbits and ducks with her already to diversify my blood lines in those areas. She does not have the land to raise beef.


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## cnsper (Sep 6, 2012)

genebo said:


> You can milk any mammal.
> 
> You can milk a cat, but you won't get very much milk and you'll have one really ticked off cat.


Herd of cats and an automatic milking barn... Might be a little hard to herd though.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

I am not paulnks but WD for $700 is a WD Allis Chambers TRACTOR


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## cnsper (Sep 6, 2012)

Then he got a hell of a deal. You can not even get a broken Massey Furgeson or Ford for that around here.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

here is one not $700 but look at the equipment you get with it even a front end loader

Allis WD tractor


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## collegeboundgal (Jul 17, 2005)

dang you myers!!! now I'm wanting that tractor!!!


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

this one is $700 still a WD

FOR SALE ALLIS CHALMERS WD NARROW FRONT


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## collegeboundgal (Jul 17, 2005)

NOOOOOOooooOOO!!!!!!


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

in Montana

wd allis with a loader $1100

195? Allis Chalmers WD 45 with Loader


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## cnsper (Sep 6, 2012)

"Why that's clear on the other side of the divide!"

If you have ever watched The Mountain Men with Charlton Heston and Brian Keith you would probably recognize that quote.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

You've never had cattle but don't want any advice on how to manage cattle. Okie Dokey.

I'm going to give you some management advice anyway. If you are going to keep a bull, you will have to invest in some serious perimeter fencing and some quality handling equipment, like Powder River fence panels and head gates and chutes to make handling your bull slightly safer. Not safe to handle, but safer.

Good luck to you. And also, maybe Beefalo would work for you in your situation. I don't like the meat, but since "grass fed" is such a big deal, they pretty much have to be grass fed, not doing well with grain, and they are very durable.


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## cnsper (Sep 6, 2012)

I never said that I have never had cattle. Grew up and been around them all my life. I just have not dealt with these breeds on a personal level, hence the question.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

cnsper said:


> As for the haying equipment, you forgot the tractor.


No, I didn't forget it. Read again. "WD $700". It also has a $100 front loader that I bought later and with a little welding, I converted the extra draw bar to a bale spear. I also got a 3 bottom plow for $60 for it. We also have a WD-45 that we paid $1100. They won't run a big round baler like ours, but they do fine with our small square balers. 

People seem to think they need to spend $5,000 to $10,000 for a tractor for just a few acres. We used the WD's on several hundred acres before we bought our big tractor. Now, I seldom use the tractors. We have a 75 horsepower skid steer that we use for nearly everything, including post holes and moving hay bales.

Keep in mind that if a bull is only breeding 2 cows per year, he's going to be harder to keep in and happy.


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## RebeccaJ (Oct 14, 2005)

Not sure about your land really but have you ever seen a Normande? They were developed for the mountains in France. Grow great on grass and hay with little or no grain. They also give great milk. Granted if you dont feed a lot of grain you dont get 12 gallons of milk, but that is a bit much anyway. They are big cows but gentle, laid back and not terribly skitty. If you plan on keeping a bull on open pasture then I have to say that raising it from a bottle baby would be your best bet. I am 5'5" and weigh 120....I handle all my own cattle, dairy and now beefers. I had to raise my bull because no one else handles their cattle like I have to, and they alll call me crazy but I can call them in from wherever they are, no problems and I have a 1500 pound animal who will give me my space and listen. No I do not trust him but he has not shoved or pushed or tried to get after me like I have always heard bulls will do. Ok so off my soapbox, susstaining animals on your land is something only you will be able to figure, we dont know how much grass you have or for how long, but having a purebred cow may not be the way to go,my best milkers are crossbred and the best beefers I have ever had were crossbred. make your own, like they have said AI is much cheaper and certainly safer than a bull....BUT i have a bull and NO chutes, panels and headgates. Everyone is different and all setups will make someone else shake their head and say that guy is crazy...but this gal likes being crazy and has found doing it completely different than what is "done" elsewere works. good luck and i hop eyou find your perfect fit.
Becca


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## BeeFree (Feb 23, 2004)

Gabriel said:


> I understand what you're saying, but really, a homestead is a business. Far too many 'steaders treat it as a hobby. Understand that businesses have different goals and forge ahead with yours.


I have decided that cattle raising is really gambling. Just like at a casino or playing lottery. It is just slower. You never know if you are going to get a calf that is alive or if it is alive if it is going to survive and the mother be okay. There are all kinds of things that can happen to cattle. I think we have had about anything you can dream of happen to ours over the years. 

This past summers drought was really rough on them. We had plenty of water to water, them, but the pasture dried up. Thank the Lord for the rain we got as the pasture is producing again and the cattle are gaining weight and we are not having to feed our winter hay as we did in July and August. There we go again, gambling that we will now have enough hay left for winter. :bouncy:


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## majiksummer (Sep 13, 2012)

Maybe barter for breeding to a neighbors bull? Then you don't have the expense of AI and it's more sustainable on the size of acreage you have. 20 acres of steep mountain land is not going to provide a lot of grazing for cattle, and you said you had local herds of the types of cattle you're interested in having, so it would be a sustainable option in my opinion. At least to get you started, and then after you see how you're specific land will handle the grazing you could add a bull at that point? Then you don't run the risk of over grazing your land in the beginning.


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## cedarcreekranch (Nov 24, 2010)

We raise Lowlines and like them also have a couple of 'jer-low' heifers (jerseyxlowline) that are great and think they'd work fine for you. They don't have horns though and if you think they'll need them for protection, I guess I'd choose smaller framed highlanders. They'd definitely take the winters (as would Lowlines or Dexters), they shed off quite a bit in summer (there are a lot of them here in OK and they get fairly slick then), and I've heard really good things about their beef and temperaments. Don't know about milking but how much do you need? ;-) As for killing young trees from rubbing on them any breed will do that, especially during bug season, so I wouldn't discount a breed for that reason. Good luck to you in your endeavors!


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

I am glad I kept my mouth shut until I read everything and will continue to do so.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

Im new to this cowboy stuff. I have been looking at lowlines for the last 6 years and like what I see.
We started going on two years ago with two angus X with calves. One of the calves a heifer. Both cows and heifer are bred (expecting in Jan) Today I picked up a 7 month old 3/4 lowline bull. Hoping by next spring he will be breeding my cows.
Money permitting we may pickup a couple of lowline heifers when he is ready


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## cowkeeper (Feb 17, 2007)

Dexters would be the first choice as they provide nice-size portions or excellent beef and fit into a medium sized freezer. You could start with two bred heifers or cows and an unrelated weaned bull calf. Bulls are usually easy to manage the first year or two. You could get some experience with little risk, and the bull could be your first freezer animal after he re-breeds the cows in his yearling year.ck


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

Keeping two cows is good because you can stagger their freshening dates 6 months apart so that you always have one in milk.

You normally milk a cow for 10 months, then let her dry off. You rebreed her to have a calf on the same day every year. A cow's milk production declines gradually. At her 6th month of lactation, as her production is beginning to drop, the other cow freshens.


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## Dreamfarm (Dec 10, 2011)

Alaska said:


> Im new to this cowboy stuff. I have been looking at lowlines for the last 6 years and like what I see.
> We started going on two years ago with two angus X with calves. One of the calves a heifer. Both cows and heifer are bred (expecting in Jan) Today I picked up a 7 month old 3/4 lowline bull. Hoping by next spring he will be breeding my cows.
> Money permitting we may pickup a couple of lowline heifers when he is ready


I too am seriously looking at lowlines and after all of my research am hoping to have one within the next few months.


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## opportunity (Mar 31, 2012)

I don't live very far away about an hour south. I have lots of breeds but think that the highlands would do well there. It takes at least 5 acres per animal for summer pasture in this region. You will need hay in the winter at least January-April as that grass will be gone (grazed off and even if you had it left to little protein) I know that you can keep a bull in your situation we didn't have a facility when we started and when it was time to vaccinate our bull we ran out in the pasture and did it was he was standing there. We are on our third bull as we rotate out ever 2-3 years we eat the bull once he has done his work for us. We also have not had much for wanering bulls even though we have cows 600 feet away, although one bull did like to walk to the store and try to get treats. We had lowline angus for a while they are long gone not worth the money. 
Have you though about using your friends bull? I have a guy bring me his cows for 45 days and I charge him $80 to breed his cows works well for me as my bull is not to busy and I get more out of him and he doesn't have to keep a bull. I don't think AI is the way to go in this region they charge to much for it and it's hard to get them to come when you need them doens't do any good if the cow isn't in the right part of the cycle.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Homesteadingtoday is a great place to reach out for answers. There is a wealth of knowledge here. Sometimes there are conflicting oppinions, but that's life.

Nearly every comment is meant to be helpful. So, cut that snippy attitude and wake up to the fact that a number of strangers just took time from their busy lives and tried to help you.

As people attempt to answer your question, they seek more information so they can offer a better answer.
If, in the process of getting more information, they see a trouble spot in your plan, they are going to attempt to straighten you out. You opened the discussion on breed types, but a few seem to think the whole plan needs a re-think. Ten acres of meadow and ten acres of pine forest in a Montana mountainside isn't going to support three cattle for the whole short summer. You believe Herefords would tear up the meadow with their weight, but a Scottish Higland won't? 
Keeping a Bull just to breed two cows is a form of self-sfficency, but you are still going to be buying a bull every few years. Homesteading requires many skills. Perhaps you could learn to do your own AI. The whole setup, with training would still be far cheaper than a bull. Cattle are so large, butchering one would require you to sell much of the meat, buy a freezer or do a heck of a lot of canning.
Maybe a goat would suit you better?
Any idea how much hand cut hay would be needed to sustain three cattle for nine months? Maybe you could hire out to do AI to help pay for all that hay?
While different cattle breeds react differently to poor forage, they all need a generous amount of quality forage. That a cow can thrive on weedy meadow and brush is a myth.


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## Betho (Dec 27, 2006)

cnsper said:


> I give up. Apparently there are only a few people here that give advice to answer a questions instead of their own opinions (I thank them) of how someone else should raise their animals because "their" way is the best. Most of the answers come from a business mindset and not a sustainable homestead mindset.



Welcome to Homesteading Today :hysterical:

(I say that in a very "I know exactly how you feel" sorta way, not a snarky way)


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## cedarcreekranch (Nov 24, 2010)

Alaska, your percentage Lowline bull should be able to cover your girls next spring, ours seem to be fairly precocious! lol If I had an endless supply of grass and money, I'd have some of a lot of different breeds but like most of us, have to have cattle that at least pay for themselves and so far, our Lowlines have done very well in that department. We only have one fullblood, our bull, the rest are percentage Lowline cows & heifers, along with my goofy Jerseys & my hubby's 'pet', the 1200# Limo/Angus cow he raised from a baby. (our little bull breeds her every year even though she's about a foot taller - quite a jump for him! LOL)


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## Disco Paul (Oct 18, 2005)

Just my thoughts,
I think you have had alot of good replies. I raise Boer goats They are a meat breed. I think you plan on eating alot of meat. We don't raise milk goats but have. You might want to look at goats They are low impact but will eat your small trees. Goats are browsers. Anyways I am currently fencing in 27 acres. We have hills that are steep, rocks, trees, you name it. Had to cut a road thru the woods. I have a tractor mounted post driver. We use 6 strands of high tensile. I think it's going to take you longer than you think to put it up. Corners are very important with high tensile. They will pull out of the ground if not secure.You will want to get a fence charger with as many Joules as you can afford. One good charger will power all of your fence. Remember electric is a physiological barrier. We are going to be buying some cattle. GOOD LUCK!
Paul


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

cedarcreekranch said:


> Alaska, your percentage Lowline bull should be able to cover your girls next spring, ours seem to be fairly precocious! lol If I had an endless supply of grass and money, I'd have some of a lot of different breeds but like most of us, have to have cattle that at least pay for themselves and so far, our Lowlines have done very well in that department. We only have one fullblood, our bull, the rest are percentage Lowline cows & heifers, along with my goofy Jerseys & my hubby's 'pet', the 1200# Limo/Angus cow he raised from a baby. (our little bull breeds her every year even though she's about a foot taller - quite a jump for him! LOL)


 Im amazed by how many of these cowboys have never heard of lowlines and think Im nuts. Maybe I am.
Ive been reading for the last 6 years and am fairly convinced it is a good move, maybe not the best but a good move. 
One, for a newbee I thnk its a good idea to keep the size down, two I think thats a good move for the cows/heifers and birthing.


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## ramiller5675 (Mar 31, 2009)

Alaska said:


> ...One, for a newbee I thnk its a good idea to keep the size down...


The closest I've ever came to being stomped was by a little heifer that weighed about 800 lbs. 

You're fooling yourself if you think that a smaller breed of cattle is somehow easier to handle and/or safer to be around.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

ramiller5675 said:


> You're fooling yourself if you think that a smaller breed of cattle is somehow easier to handle and/or safer to be around.


No kidding. An 800 pound cow may not weigh as much as a 1200 pound cow, but she still outweighs a human by a lot of pounds and cows are surprisingly quick to move and they know how to use their weapons.

Not saying that small cattle are more dangerous (unless you get one that is higher strung or higher energy). Just saying that they are not necessarily any safer or easier to handle. It's not like if an 800 pound cow doesn't do what you say that you can pick her up and carry her.


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

Size isn't the most important thing in determining the danger of handling cattle. Temperament is tied with the handler's skill in setting the danger level.

A skilled cattle handler cuts the risk immensely, while having a cow of even, gentle temperament cuts the risk a lot.

I'm skilled enough not to do something stupid and cause a problem and my Dexters are gentle enough that they are unlikely to cause a problem, either. We've never had a problem.

You can develop the skills to handle cattle safely by reading Temple Grandin's writings, available all over the internet.

For a small homesteader, picking your cow carefully to insure that you get one gentle enough to handle goes a long way to prevent problems. Always visit the cow before buying.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

genebo said:


> You can develop the skills to handle cattle safely by reading Temple Grandin's writings, available all over the internet.


You can develop the skills to handle cattle by handeling cattle. Reading something other people write is a bad replacement for experience.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

My friend has Highlands. The bull is HUGE, gentle, will eat out of your hand...and yes, they taste sooooo good. They thrive in cold weather and don't need a lot of special care. If I were to get cattle, Highlanders are the only breed I'd consider.


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

Through the years, methods were developed for handling cattle, mostly by handling cattle. Not everybody's way was the same. Some methods got the handler hurt and some were cruel to the cattle. Some were good, but didn't go far enough.

Experience takes time and requires a lot of errors and mistakes to teach us correctly. Experience is a hard teacher.

Temple Grandin is not like the rest of us. She was born different. Autistic. She had a hard time relating to people, but had an empathy with animals, especially cattle. Whatever made her different from us made her more like the cattle. She could think like one, and see things that we didn't see.

She was able to demonstrate her methods to people in a position to do something about it and they agreed. Her methods produced results!

Today, her methods are used by nearly every slaughterhouse and feed lot because they work. She has been recognized by people who know and has received their praise.

Don't be stubborn. Read some of her stuff and try it yourself. You'll be pleased with the results you get.

Just learning the trick for moving cattle through a squeeze chute is a big benefit.

Using her teachings to design cattle handling facilities can save many an hour of frustration.

Because of her teachings, I discovered that I'd built my loading chute facing the wrong way. It was always a hassle getting cattle that were normally so easy to handle to go into a trailer. It turns out that my loading chute faced south. The sunlight in the cattle's eyes made the inside of the trailer look dark and forbidding. They were afraid to go in.

I used one of her hints and now have a battery powered magnetic light that I put in the roof of the trailer to light the interior. I've used it twice and the difference was amazing!

I'm not a dummy, but I didn't think of that myself. I spent years revising the swing gates and crowding gates to make the cattle go into the trailer. I see the same thing at the livestock market and the handlers use prods to drive the cattle in.

I like her method better.


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## mamagoose (Nov 28, 2003)

Highlands for all the positive reasons previously stated. You can do your own AI and it will cheaper and safer all the way around than keeping a bull. We have Highlands and do AI and keep a bull, but have more than 2 cows. A Highland X Jersey is a nice milker, but won't be as happy in the winter without a barn as a fullblood Highland. We've raised Polled Herefords and Angus, Charolais and Limousine and crosses between DH's and my family for 30 years, and we prefer the Highlands.


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