# Pulling wire through conduit



## watcher

I have to pull 135 feet of of 4/0 4/0 4/0 2/0 wire (I think that's the size I'm too lazy to go out and look its for 200 amp service to a trailer.) through 2" conduit with two 90 degree elbows (one at the pole and the other at the trailer).

Would you suggest using lube? If so how much should I buy? I'm thinking anything that would make it easier to pull would be a good think but I don't know how messy it is nor how hard the clean up would be. 

Lowe's website shows a 32 oz bottle for a little over $6 plus there's an electrical supply place which probably sells it by the gallon for less. So unless I'm going to need several gallons cost isn't going to be much of an issue.

Any and all suggestions welcome.


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## Harry Chickpea

Easy. Rule #1 use 4" conduit. Rule #2 DO NOT connect the conduit sections.

Lay the trailer wire out on the side of the trench. Working both end to the middle, slide the individual section of conduit loosely in place. Once all are there, join them with the cement. THEN drop the completed job into the trench.

BTDT, hired a nice Mexican fellow to help.


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## farmrbrown

Good advice above.
On the lube, yes it'll make it easier.
And you already have some at home, near your kitchen sink. (liquid dish soap)


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## Gray Wolf

Chickpea has it right. 

No lube needed, just lots of walking back and forth. We did it for about 600' at our place.

Check with power co to be sure that 2" conduit is big enough. They may want bigger.


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## copperkid3

I have that distinct impression, that the 2" conduit has already been purchased . . .

http://www.allenelectric.com/referencedata/conduitfill.htm


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## MushCreek

The power company just did that at our new house. They pulled it through 150 feet of 2" flexible conduit, with one elbow at the end. They had forgotten the lube, but with one (big) guy pulling and one pushing, they had it done in about 5 minutes. The conduit was very slick inside; not regular old PVC that you get at a big box store. They use a flat braided pull rope; they said it is rated for 1200 lbs. I kept it, as they were going to throw it out, and I need to pull wire out to the barn some day.


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## Robotron

Glueing the conduit after the wire is pulled is not allowed. Like it or not PVC cement melts the conduit together, correct? And the insulation of the wire is made from? Yup, PVC. The glue can and will attack the insulation. This can cause the wire to short out. After pulling in replacement wire figure out your savings. Once again code practices normally come from failures analyzed from real life failures. Use big enough conduit and glue it up before pulling any wire.


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## SteveD(TX)

farmrbrown said:


> Good advice above.
> On the lube, yes it'll make it easier.
> And you already have some at home, near your kitchen sink. (liquid dish soap)


I was advised by my master electrician and the electric supply house to never use liquid dish soap, since it can cause the wire insulation to degrade over time. Just my $.02 but better safe than sorry. The wire lube is pretty cheap.


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## wharton

Robotron said:


> Glueing the conduit after the wire is pulled is not allowed. Like it or not PVC cement melts the conduit together, correct? And the insulation of the wire is made from? Yup, PVC. The glue can and will attack the insulation. This can cause the wire to short out. After pulling in replacement wire figure out your savings. Once again code practices normally come from failures analyzed from real life failures. Use big enough conduit and glue it up before pulling any wire.


 You are correct, but...... I have installed thousands of feet of conduit this way, and if you are reasonably careful you won't ever get a drop of glue inside the pipe. The key is to apply the cement to the male end of the connection, and keep it slightly back from the front edge. Never put any glue in the bell end of the pipe and you will be just fine. 

Couple of points when doing this. First, any wire pulling or pushing in PVC should be done in one direction only. This involves the wire entering the pipe from the bell end, and exiting through the male end. This might seem like a silly point, but one of the the biggest problems with wire pulling is the head catching on obstructions in the pipe. Typically one of the biggest obstructions is the square cut edge of the male end. If you insert the head, bell first, you will glide over this edge every ten feet, if not, the head has a place to get caught every ten feet. This is important enough that my local utility specifies that all conduit must be installed without bells and connected using couplings. Naturally, everybody in the field ignores this, and uses the normal stuff. If you are sliding conduit over the conductors, like I said, keep the bells glue free, and the leading edge of the male end dry. Use a small block of wood and a hammer to tap the joints tight, if they are not slamming tight by hand. This is a trial and error process since PVC conduit standards are pretty flaky. Sometimes a production run will fit tighter than a fishes' butt, other times it's sloppy loose. Keep the conductors clean and DON"T drag rocks or pebbles the pipe as you work. A rock in a pipe can destroy wires and lock up the pull. Last, don't use anything but clear wire lube if you are pulling through a pre-installed conduit. Soaps will do the job, and was the only choice for many decades before commercial lubes became available, but lube is far more effective, and it cleans up easily. Soap will not stick to wires as well, and does not wipe off easily or cleanly.


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## Harry Chickpea

I don't dispute "not allowed," but like wharton I have obviously done this, had it inspected and approved. The thickness of insulation on 4/0 trailer wire precludes anything less than a massive amount of PVC cement from doing damage. I also wonder if all cable insulation is PVC. I've seen what appeared to be a poly coating on some THHN, etc.

In my situation, the lack of any weatherhead on the utility pole (utility co. did it, not me) creates a nice stack airflow and way for water to intrude. PVC cement is way down on any list of concerns. If they lose a pig, they get to replace it, not me.

Edit to add - my bad, not a poly coating, but a NYLON coating resistant to oils and chemicals. PVC cement is a non-issue.

http://www.republicwire.com/pdf/rwi_brochure.pdf
"The insulation is a high quality, heat and moisture resistant polyvinyl chloride compound over which a heat and light stabilized nylon jacket is tightly applied." (page 14)


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## Robotron

polyvinyl chloride = PVC. 
Your job, not mine.


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## fordy

watcher said:


> I have to pull 135 feet of of 4/0 4/0 4/0 2/0 wire (I think that's the size I'm too lazy to go out and look its for 200 amp service to a trailer.) through 2" conduit with two 90 degree elbows (one at the pole and the other at the trailer).
> 
> Would you suggest using lube? If so how much should I buy? I'm thinking anything that would make it easier to pull would be a good think but I don't know how messy it is nor how hard the clean up would be.
> 
> Lowe's website shows a 32 oz bottle for a little over $6 plus there's an electrical supply place which probably sells it by the gallon for less. So unless I'm going to need several gallons cost isn't going to be much of an issue.
> 
> Any and all suggestions welcome.


 .............They make a long sweeping 90 degree in PVC and I'm sure in metal conduit as well ! It makes pulling wire a lot easier than pulling through a regular 90 . , fordy


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## Harry Chickpea

Robotron said:


> polyvinyl chloride = PVC.
> Your job, not mine.


Yep. Know that. And yep, my job not yours. Over the years I have discovered that empirical science trumps theoretical science most of the time. In other words, an engineer positing "Ya know, the PVC cement could melt the insulation" would get a lot more of my attention if he SHOWED me a dozen situations where that happened. Ivory tower and all that.


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## wharton

Harry Chickpea said:


> Yep. Know that. And yep, my job not yours. Over the years I have discovered that empirical science trumps theoretical science most of the time. In other words, an engineer positing "Ya know, the PVC cement could melt the insulation" would get a lot more of my attention if he SHOWED me a dozen situations where that happened. Ivory tower and all that.


 Harry to expand on this. A lot of theoretical, and typically meaningless, issues are never addressed because nobody ever wants to be responsible for ANY potential liability, no matter how unlikely, or nearly unimaginable the potential may be. I once had a situation where we ran hundreds of miles of low voltage cabling through the ceiling in a new school. Where the runs passed through areas without ceilings, the work was neatly ty-wrapped and nearly concealed while running through bar joists. These areas were spray painted as an exposed finish. At this point the electrical inspector wants documentation that the cables (fire rated and finished in a Teflon like substance that is not only very slippery, but sheds paint when slightly manipulated) are compatible with the latex paint. 

Well, it got interesting. The various wire manufacturers and the paint manufacturer all said, "not my problem" and the painting contractor said, "I believe that the inspector has lost his mind, and we will not be correcting a pretend issue". In the end the overzealous inspector backed down, but it was an interesting lesson. Absent a lot of expensive chemical engineering review for this specific application, the question was unanswerable. 

If you were to contact a wire manufacturer about compatibility of any of their products with just about any substance that they are not specifically designed to be exposed to (water, oils, etc....) you are going to get a lawyerish weasel language reply. It's all part of the game.


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## Harry Chickpea

I 100% agree wharton. The real issues involved are often more personal than meaningful, and I have seen examples of it literally everywhere. Some people are just wired to be rule bound and rule enforcers. The fellow I used to do darkroom work for was a prik this way. "When developing film in a tank, you must tap the tank, rotate and flip it at exactly this speed, and blah blah blah." I understood the process and the concept of over/under development, but I also understood that with Kodalith, the whole exercise was idiotic. It was going to be black or clear. Period.

If the rule enforcers are NOT challenged regularly, life becomes unlivable. That goes for government at all levels, scientific dogma, and just about everything but math. If I am a thorn in someones side, I might not win my personal battle, but if I have presented the issues fairly, the next person with a similar problem might be treated more reasonably.


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## watcher

So I should glue all the conduit together making sure the bells "aim" in the direction of pull, follow the directions on the cable lube, then have someone push the wire in one end while someone else pulls on the other end.


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## fordy

watcher said:


> So I should glue all the conduit together making sure the bells "aim" in the direction of pull, follow the directions on the cable lube, then have someone push the wire in one end while someone else pulls on the other end.


 ..............Why can't you just pull a small 1\4 inch nylon rope through all the PVC joints and after everything is glued , tie and tape the nylon line to the cable and pull it through the PVC ? , fordy


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## highlands

I pulled about 350' of 350 MCM URD through 3" conduit. Bell direction matters. Pull wire helps.

http://sugarmtnfarm.com/underground-electric/

Another time we pulled 2,600' of 12 pair UG phone wire through 1" black plastic water line. That was in 300' sections which we joined with couplers after pulling. We pulled and pushed at joints.

Another time we did 5,700'(?) of 12 pair UG phone line just like above. It's a task. It made it so we have phone service and internet as well as power all underground.

I've not another 500' section of the 350 MCM URD to do maybe next year. I'll use a pull line on that one.

The 2,600' phone line wire is almost dead (lighting strikes) so I may be pulling a new one through that gain next year. This time I'll hook the new cable to the old and just drag it through very carefully. Wonder if I can hook it up to a big sow in a harness... 

Note that _none_ of these times did we use grease. I know about it but never needed it. Sizing the conduit big enough makes a huge difference. Avoiding bends or doing very gentle curves helps.


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## Robotron

You can use an industrial vacuum to pull a light string with Kleenex tied to through the pipe. Use this string to pull the heavier stuff through. Just don't suck the light stuff completely out of the pipe. Works great. Also leave a spare pull string in case you need it later.


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## Harry Chickpea

fordy said:


> ..............Why can't you just pull a small 1\4 inch nylon rope through all the PVC joints and after everything is glued , tie and tape the nylon line to the cable and pull it through the PVC ? , fordy


I went that route on some smaller diameter pipe. Got it all in the ground, nice stout rope, lubed up, tried to pull... no joy. Hooked a small tractor to the rope, got the wire thru the pipe fine. Only problem was that when it went around the 90 degree bend, it ripped off the insulation. I still have some of that wire if you want it at a discount.


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## fordy

Harry Chickpea said:


> I went that route on some smaller diameter pipe. Got it all in the ground, nice stout rope, lubed up, tried to pull... no joy. Hooked a small tractor to the rope, got the wire thru the pipe fine. Only problem was that when it went around the 90 degree bend, it ripped off the insulation. I still have some of that wire if you want it at a discount.


 ..................If you had installed a 'sweeping' 90 you wouldn't have lot your skivvies ! , fordy


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## watcher

fordy said:


> ..............Why can't you just pull a small 1\4 inch nylon rope through all the PVC joints and after everything is glued , tie and tape the nylon line to the cable and pull it through the PVC ? , fordy


The plan is to use a vacuum to pull a piece of twine through the conduit, use the twine to pull a rope through, then use the rope to pull the wire along with someone pushing it from the other end to make it go easier.


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## watcher

fordy said:


> ..................If you had installed a 'sweeping' 90 you wouldn't have lot your skivvies ! , fordy


I learned long ago, when doing plumbing, to use long sweep 90 (and "Y"s as well) when ever possible. Them make all kinds of stuff slide down the pipe easier.


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## swamp man

watcher said:


> I learned long ago, when doing plumbing, to use long sweep 90 (and "Y"s as well) when ever possible. Them make all kinds of stuff slide down the pipe easier.


 Absolutely right; it makes all the difference in the world when pulling or shoving a wire. Trying to ram romex through regular ninety degree fittings and at that distance is inviting a trip to the mental ward.
I'm confused here.... is this an entirely new install, or is the conduit already in place? If the pipe ain't in the ground already, run a string through it before installation, for sure. It really, really helps to have a buddy pushing while you pull, more importantly, he's gotta' get that wire straightened out as it comes off the roll. Tape up the end of the wire, and as has already been advised, lay the pipe in the direction where you're pushing the wire IN to the bell end. 
Good luck, bud. As an irrigation man who's been through the "how the he77 am I gonna' get this wire to go over there?" debacle waaaaaay too many times, it generally goes surprisingly easy or is a nightmare.


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## wharton

Robotron said:


> You can use an industrial vacuum to pull a light string with Kleenex tied to through the pipe. Use this string to pull the heavier stuff through. Just don't suck the light stuff completely out of the pipe. Works great. Also leave a spare pull string in case you need it later.


 I never heard of using a Kleenex, and that is from a guy who got his license in the 80s, and followed my dad into the trade. learn something every day. That said, the corner of a typical plastic grocery bag works wicked good. For those without a clue as to what we are rambling about, you take a piece of a bag and fluff it up like a parachute and put it into the end of the conduit, as you are sucking on the other end with a shop vac. It you have good suction, once the bag seals tight, it will fly at tremendous speed to the vac. If you have a small string tied to the bag, you now have a pull string to use to pull your pull rope through. As for pulling a spare rope or string through, totally a toss up. Sometimes it works great, sometimes it wraps around the existing wires and becomes less than useless. Given the wire and pipe size the OP is discussing, there isn't much that's going into that pipe later on.


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## farmrbrown

Yep. Plastic is better than paper for this choice, lol.
I helped run miles of fiber optic thru conduit along the interstate, for DOT camera's a few years back.....well, more than a few years.
Learned a lot from working with these brothers from Kentucky who traveled nationwide installing it.
Every 1/4 mile it had a junction box inground. Yet they would pull an entire spool of 30,000 ft of cable before splicing to the new spool.
The whole process was ingenious and by only splicing where absolutely necessary, very profitable.
A little OT for this thread, but the first step was always "shooting" a string down to the other end first, with compressed air. That pulled a sturdier rope, and finally the cable. 
And as long as your soap doesn't contain pumice or other abrasive, plain dish soap won't hurt insulation on wire, and lubricates good too.


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## wharton

Farmerbrown. LOL, I "shot" a zillion feet of string in my time. Trailer mounted air compressor, like the highway crews use for jackhammers, a custom made adapter to stick in the pipe. Greenlee brand foam "mouse" to tie to a very small string, and away you go. Nothing to travel a thousand feet in a minute or two. We were always working big pipe, 4' " or even 5", and running in and out of underground man holes. always keep the hole on the receiving end clear of men. Nothing to have a shower of rocks and even a soda bottle or two come out ahead of the mouse, and fire into the manhole like buckshot! I've pulled iwre with everything from a jeep, to a jury rigged pipe threading machine, and even worked a job where large distances were covered above drop ceilings with a talented archer using a bowfishing rig. Whatever it takes, and sometimes it takes a crazy idea to get the job done.


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## moeh1

I pulled a plastic bag thru about 110' of 2" conduit awhile ago. I had the good fortune to tie the other end off, the string shot out of my wifes hand and was all the way thru and into the shop vac in about 3 seconds flat....


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## a'ightthen

Harry Chickpea said:


> I went that route on some smaller diameter pipe. Got it all in the ground, nice stout rope, lubed up, tried to pull... no joy. Hooked a small tractor to the rope, got the wire thru the pipe fine. Only problem was that when it went around the 90 degree bend, it ripped off the insulation. I still have some of that wire if you want it at a discount.



Again, I mention metal ( GRC) 90s as rope, friction, PVC just do not agree.

Really? 

" I don't dispute "not allowed," but like wharton I have obviously done this"

"Yep. Know that. And yep, my job not yours."

"I don't dispute "not allowed," but like wharton I have obviously done this"

So a fella comes along and asks a question and is answered with what one has gotten by with vs that which is proper ... code?

Yes, it will be tight but wire lube will make it better. A shop vac and a plastic bag is great for getting a standard 200 lb pulling string in place for pulling in a decent pulling rope .... as far as what I have gotten by with, maybe I just did it right to start with .... and those were my jobs/responsibility.


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## Harry Chickpea

a'ightthen said:


> Again, I mention metal ( GRC) 90s as rope, friction, PVC just do not agree.
> 
> Really?
> 
> " I don't dispute "not allowed," but like wharton I have obviously done this"
> 
> "Yep. Know that. And yep, my job not yours."
> 
> "I don't dispute "not allowed," but like wharton I have obviously done this"
> 
> So a fella comes along and asks a question and is answered with what one has gotten by with vs that which is proper ... code?
> 
> Yes, it will be tight but wire lube will make it better. A shop vac and a plastic bag is great for getting a standard 200 lb pulling string in place for pulling in a decent pulling rope .... as far as what I have gotten by with, maybe I just did it right to start with .... and those were my jobs/responsibility.


Sounds like you want to fight. I said what I did, and commented on the excesses of code. I stand by that and have no need to further explain. If you want to fight, do some with someone who cares to invest the energy. I got better things to do.


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## a'ightthen

Harry Chickpea said:


> I 100% agree wharton. The real issues involved are often more personal than meaningful, and I have seen examples of it literally everywhere. Some people are just wired to be rule bound and rule enforcers. The fellow I used to do darkroom work for was a prik this way. "When developing film in a tank, you must tap the tank, rotate and flip it at exactly this speed, and blah blah blah." I understood the process and the concept of over/under development, but I also understood that with Kodalith, the whole exercise was idiotic. It was going to be black or clear. Period.
> 
> If the rule enforcers are NOT challenged regularly, life becomes unlivable. That goes for government at all levels, scientific dogma, and just about everything but math. If I am a thorn in someones side, I might not win my personal battle, but if I have presented the issues fairly, the next person with a similar problem might be treated more reasonably.


Me, Fight? Abide by the rules/law = being contradictive to apparent personal issues with authority? Authority Having Jurisdiction is the bottom line for compliance ... how does my compliance with the law of the land vs known and stated divergence constitute a battle amongst us?


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## Harry Chickpea

LOL! Nice try.


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## vpapai

I just ran 110 feet of 3 gauge wire to the garage. Ran the first wire for certain length. Left the center connection undone so that I could push the single wire from the breaker panel to the open conduit in the middle (actually at the 75 foot point) then continued to run the single wire to the breaker panel in the garage. Once I had my length, I tied a heavy string to the end of the single wire at the house, and pulled the wire out of the garage. I glued the conduit in the middle. I then ran three wires of 3 gauge, and a 4 gauge ground, and taped the string into the combined wires. Then had my son pull on the string in the garage pulling the wires while I fed the wires at the house panel. Worked like a charm.


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## hornetd

Harry Chickpea said:


> I went that route on some smaller diameter pipe. Got it all in the ground, nice stout rope, lubed up, tried to pull... no joy. Hooked a small tractor to the rope, got the wire thru the pipe fine. Only problem was that when it went around the 90 degree bend, it ripped off the insulation. I still have some of that wire if you want it at a discount.


The code specifically permits the use of steel elbows in underground runs of plastic conduit for just that reason. They have to end up at least eighteen inches below grade though which doubles the depth of the trench. That can be a good thing if you are not hand digging the trench because a trench that deep can contain the equivalent of a "Ground Ring". Second only to a true "Ufer Ground" in effectiveness a "Ground Ring" markedly lowers the risk of surge and spike damage to the buildings wiring. 

--
Tom Horne


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