# Question Regarding Round Bales and Founder?



## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

So my thrill over getting round bales was short lived. As you know, I had to separate Rocky from the big boys, so he has a round bale all to himself. As a rescued Arrabber in the big city, I am sure he never saw such a large portion of hay all at once. He is currently eyeball deep into the bale and moss has grown around his hooves from standing in one place too long stone cold munching. 

SO my question. He is, at we guesstimate 20-25 years or so, pre-laminitic/cushings. His farrier thinks his feet are in good shape and not showing any founder/laminitis. I have been giving him a scoop and a half of grain 1x per day so he doesn't do the elderly weight drop this winter. He might be a candidate for a grazing muzzle this spring. SO when it comes to hay, how much is too much? I liked the idea of him being able to munch as much as he likes to keep his little old furnace running and to keep him at a good weight, but is there a such thing as too much hay? It isn't super green, and is regular old timothy/orchard grass. 

Am I killing him with kindness or is dried out hay lacking the ingredient to cause metabolic issues? I can easily put him on a supplement for cushings as well, no problem, if needed. But golly, I don't want to come between him and that round bale...I might draw back a bloody nub where my arm used to be. 

(Oh, for those who don't know/forgot, Rocky is about 13 hands. He is, according to the good people here and anyone else who has seen him, some kind of welsh/welshie cross).


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## Ohiogal (Mar 15, 2007)

Be careful about free choice hay. If he gains too much weight its like a trigger for the Cushings. I went through this with a mare of mine, I let her get too fat on round bale hay and then I had an event that did trigger laminitis and it was a long slow slide to the end.
If it were me, I'd limit his time on that hay, weight tape him to see what he is at right now, and keep close track of his grain consumption. If the hay has some sugars in it, it will really exacerbate the problem quickly. 
A horse his age with that kind of hay should not need a grain supplement. You can switch him over to a higher protein feed or give him liquid oil as part of his supplement to reduce the carbs.
Carb control is the key for Cushings!


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

I would cut the grain. If you are worried about needing a grazing muzzle, he has no trouble keeping on weight so does not need it. A horse with cushings or laminitis, or in danger of getting either, should not have regular grain. 

Has he been tested for cushings?

Talk to your vet and ask him/her if you should limit hay. I thought grass hay was okay but not alfalfa. I could be wrong on that so, like I said, ask your vet.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

To be honest I am not thrilled with ANY grain, but was assured that he needed it due to age. If he is getting enough hay, I shouldn't think he will need any, tho. I confess to knowing very little about cushing's. He had one spirally thick tuft of hair that reminded me of this. I was informed that he had tested for it by his previous owner. I should get my vet out here, but I am afraid he'll kill me. After Delilah, to run out and get an ancient old thing like this, lol. I will have him come out and do a metabolic panel, tho, so I have a better idea of what I am looking at. I guess I could roll the round bale behind the barn and just partition some out daily if needed.

I need to cut carbs, too, so he can go on a diet with me. 

Thank you guys, I was afraid I would be making things worse but just wasn't sure if hay was as deadly as grass for this antique model of pony.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

Most horses do not need grain. Horses that don't have teeth can have soaked hay pellets and beet pulp instead. Most do fine on that but some do need grain on top of that to keep weight.

A pony is not ancient at 20 or 25! 

There's lots of info on cushings to be found online. If you are worried he is getting too fat, portion it out to him. Just cutting his grain might help with that.  Some horses eat non stop when they first get a round bale and then relax a bit. Some don't. Another thing you can do is put a net on it. I recall reading somewhere about using a soccer net or something similar and double wrapping the hay. The horses can still get at it but have to work a little harder to eat.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

I would cut out the grain. 
At that age, if he needs vitamins and a little extra food....

Get something like," Triple Crown safe starch feed".
Found it is one of the best pelleted feeds with vitamins out there for horse's with founder/cushings and such like that.

For your hay, what kind of hay is it?
For horse's that are prone to founder, I would recommend staying away from anything that has alfalfa in it. 

I personally prefer Orchard grass hay, its normally not to rich. If I can't find good hay... and VA doesn't have that good of hay or should say, it is very hard to find,, I will use Triple Crown Safe forage. 

Would love to use a round bale, but sadly, one of my horse's does not know the words, stop eating. She would eat her way into looking like a basket ball.
And because she is a vacuum... I feed everyone in slow feeder bags twice a day, so the other horses have a chance of getting some food too.




beccachow said:


> To be honest I am not thrilled with ANY grain, but was assured that he needed it due to age. If he is getting enough hay, I shouldn't think he will need any, tho. I confess to knowing very little about cushing's. He had one spirally thick tuft of hair that reminded me of this. I was informed that he had tested for it by his previous owner. I should get my vet out here, but I am afraid he'll kill me. After Delilah, to run out and get an ancient old thing like this, lol. I will have him come out and do a metabolic panel, tho, so I have a better idea of what I am looking at. I guess I could roll the round bale behind the barn and just partition some out daily if needed.
> 
> I need to cut carbs, too, so he can go on a diet with me.
> 
> Thank you guys, I was afraid I would be making things worse but just wasn't sure if hay was as deadly as grass for this antique model of pony.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

I would find out what he tested for and when, and have your vet help you figure out a proper diet.

If he really has Cushings, it may not be controllable with just diet. I took in a pony this year who had Cushings (undiagnosed) and had a full metabolic crash before it was sorted out. He was not obese, but in fact 75lbs underweight, laminitic on all 4 feet, muscle atrophy along his topline and through his entire body, and all other the obvious signs of Cushings.

Without Pergolide, he'd be dead right now. But on Pergolide, he is safely eating free choice timothy hay and gets about 2lb of Triple Crown Senior a day.

I think a lot of ponies that have Cushings or are suspected of having Cushings are Insulin Resistant in addition to Cushings or instead of Cushings. These horses/ponies really do need a low carbohydrate diet and will suffer many of the same symptoms as Cushings - laminitis/founder, but not necessarily for the same reasons.

It is really confusing, and I joined the Yahoo Cushings/IR group and actually unsubscribed because of the totally overwhelming amount of information.

A low carbohydrate diet is not bad for most horses, so that is a safe way to feed them - and your round bale might be a perfect diet for that; it might be useful to have a sample of the hay tested to get an idea of the sugar content in it.

That said, letting any horse or pony get obese is bad, whether they are IR or not. So you may have to provide some portion control for him - I know some people pull off portions of the round bale each day or only allow them near it for x number of hours a day. In the end you might find square bales easier to manage.

Keep an eye on his weight and his feet. I would feed him something like a small scoop of Triple Crown 30% supplement - not technically a "grain" but a ration balancer to make sure he gets anything missing in the hay. It's expensive - like $22/bag, but you could probably feed him 1lb or less a day so it would last a long time.

Good luck!


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## mountainwmn (Sep 11, 2009)

Orchard grass could easily be too rich for him. Timothy (in this area anyway) seems to be a little bit easier on them if you feed more. I would also probably cut out the grain, and just keep a real close eye. If you see him gaining weight or notice any swelling in his legs, he may not be able to handle it. My boy couldn't handle orchard grass at all, just a flake in the morning and a flake at night would make him start to gain. But I could give him a half a bale of timothy no problem.

I have heard that horses will gorge themselves on a round bale for the first week or two, then settle down, but I don't know how true that is.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

All hay is not the same. Is it first cut hay, second, third? Is it all grass hay, or does it have some kind of legume in it (clover, alfalfa, etc)? 

Feeding horses round bales free choice is usually ok if it is first cut and has been kept dry (ie. not dusty or moldy). A course second cut hay is usually OK too, as long as it doesn't have too much legume in it. 

If you don't know, take a look at it. While you may not be able to tell when it was cut just by looking, look at the stem to leaf ratio. If it has a lot of course stems in it, it's probably ok to feed free choice. If it is very green and leafy, with very little stem, or if it has a lot of clover or alfalfa in it, then you will want to be careful, and probably should not feed free choice to a horse that you know is prone to founder. 

I agree with cutting back on the grain if you do continue free choice hay.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

You all have given me much to think about; I knew I could count on you! The great news is, he seems to be controlling himself. He eats a bit, then wanders off to digest. I will be keeping a sharp eye on him for sure, and if he looks to be gorging himself I will roll the bale out and behind the barn where I can flake it out to him. I was worried that he would be too cold but he is a shaggy little stuffed toy right now. I had pretty much decided to cut out all grain once the hay bale was in, now I am sure that is the right thing to do. I know SPanky is on some type of supplement so I could put this fellow on it as well (a thyroid balancing type of thing, don't recall the name of it, for laminitis/cushing's/founder/IR). I will definitely get my equine vet out here ASAP to pull bloods; I want to keep the sweet fellow around for as long as I can!

Thank you all.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Remember also that, if he's all shaggy, its really hard to tell if he's thin or fat. Use a weight tape to keep track of how he's doing (gaining or losing weight). I sure hope he works out well for you!


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## cedarcreekranch (Nov 24, 2010)

Have you had his teeth floated? That would be something I'd have done or at least checked. If your farrier thinks his feet are good, he's not stocking up or turning into a fat steer (hehe), I wouldn't worry about him. Cut back or stop the grain if you think he's getting too fat and put his water tank across the lot/corral/pasture from his hay so he has to walk some and you shouldn't have any troubles. Just make sure there's not much or any alfalfa in the mix. Sounds like you're doing a good job with him so don't worry so much over it! Keeping livestock isn't as complicated as it sometimes sounds - just use your good common sense and you'll do just fine with him.


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## Ohiogal (Mar 15, 2007)

Bless you for caring, and trying (and asking). Your pony is in good hands.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Just be sure to talk to your vet about the timing for the blood work. Cushings is measured by a hormone that rises in all horses in the fall, so it is not a good time to get an accurate assessment. I am not sure at what point in the spring it is then *safe* to get an accurate measurement, so make sure you don't do it too early and get a false reading.

Curious what the reasons are that he was determined "pre-laminitic/Cushings"? You said his previous owner did blood work but did she say he was positive for Cushings?

If hair is the only reason they suspect Cushings, it can be a false trail for ponies. A lot of normal ponies have crazy winter coats, and they often need help to shed out fully. Always good to be cautious but if that is the only symptom in a pony I wouldn't read too much into it - the bloodwork will tell you much more. 

In the meantime, definitely cut out the grain and/or switch to a ration balancer or just a vitamin/mineral supplement with a round bale. Ponies don't really need grain at all, and at 20ish, he's not so "old" he will lose condition without it.

Good luck!


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