# New to canning question



## rininger85 (Feb 29, 2016)

We are planning to can quite a bit this year whatever we get out of the garden that we can't keep up with eating that way we have garden goodies through the winter/spring/early summer next year... We went and bought an electronic pressure canner (Power Cooker 8 qt) on Sunday and have ran through a few dozen cans of green beans, pickles, and various hot peppers. We followed the directions in the canning recipe book that came with the canner and set the time as specified in the book at 15 minutes (it looks like it's pretty much 15 minutes for anything according to power cooker's book that came with it.) 

When we removed the cans we placed them on a towel on the counter with another towel to cover them up to hold the heat in for a bit longer. As the cans were cooling we heard a few of the "pop" that we figured had bad seals, but from what I read it said not to check them until they had completely cooled, so after a couple hours I removed the towel and let them sit overnight, checking them the following morning they seem like they are all sealed, none of the can lids popped up... I don't know if they are sealed good or not now... is it possible that they popped releasing some pressure but then the heat being trapped by covering them with a towel they managed to reseal themselves while cooling? Would I be better off bumping the time up even though the book that came with the pressure cooker stated you only needed 15 minutes? I know with the old fashion pressure cookers you were supposed to adjust the time based on your altitude, but we're between 869 - 909 ft, and from what I read you don't really need to adjust your time until you are 2000+ ft above sea level... do I just put the cans in the pantry and hope they are sealed and rely on smell when we open them to tell if they went bad? I hate to waste the food if there is a way to know / reseal them now before they go bad...


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## ceresone (Oct 7, 2005)

If you are using cans, I dont have any idea--if its jars, and the lids popped down, i would condider them alright. you dont want to bump against other and loosen the seal


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## arrocks (Oct 26, 2011)

Not sure where to begin given all the serious issues raised - electric canner and only 8 qts in size so not approved for canning in the first place, using its manual for guidance when the info is clearly not correct, 15 min processing for pickles under pressure and then only the same amount of time for green beans, using 'cans', underprocessed foods, questionable seals, etc.

No offense but the safest advice I can give you is to throw it all away and learn how to do it right with the right equipment *before* you try again. All the information you need is readily available online at http://nchfp.uga.edu/


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## Jennifer L. (May 10, 2002)

I don't want to rain on your parade, but that is a pressure COOKER, not CANNER. There is a difference. Cookers are for cooking dinner, canners are large capacity and heat up and cool down slower because of that large capacity. When the USDA has does tests and come up with the times for canning, they are using the larger canners. These things matter. Just because a jar seals, it doesn't mean it's safely canned if you didn't cook it long enough and at the correct pressure. 

I myself can things that the USDA does not recommend (I do a lot of canned milk), but I take old directions from when they still did say it was ok, do it longer just to be on the safe side, and do it in a large canner. 

I also have an electric pressure cooker, an Insta-Pot, and I love it. Use it nearly every day for the past two years, but would never use it for canning unless it was for sealing jars of jelly or the like. 

I hope others chime in here about this. If money is an issue, go to Ebay and pick up an older All American canner on there. You don't have to buy new to get a perfectly good canner.

Please do some serious reading on this before you do any more with that pressure cooker.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

I found the FAQ for the brand of pressure cooker you used, and it says they all meet the requirements for pressure canning. 

I will say, that 8qt cooker you have runs about $99. You can buy a 16 qt pressure canner (Presto brand) from Walmart for about $70. 

As far as cooling jars, there's no need to cover jars when they come out of the canner. Remove the rings around the lids, and press down in the center of each lid. There should be NO give or movement at all. I also carefully lift each jar, holding only the edges of the lid, and that's how I make extra sure they're sealed well. If the lid comes off, they're obviously not sealed well.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Nevermind, I take that back. I just found this website. Perhaps you can return the 8 qt pressure cooker and buy an actual pressure canner, ringer85?


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## arrocks (Oct 26, 2011)

> I found the FAQ for the brand of pressure cooker you used, and it says they all meet the requirements for pressure canning.


Unfortunately many of these off-brand pressure cookers make that claim - "good for canning" - but it simply isn't true and they do a great disservice to the public making such claims. It isn't just the small size which voids the processing times required, but the actual pressure settings and times are wrong and often cannot be adjusted to the correct requirements.

There are only 3 brands of pressure canners that are approved for home canning - Presto, All American, and Mirro. And the *minimum* approved size to achieve actual pressure and time required is 10-12 quart.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

arrocks said:


> Unfortunately many of these off-brand pressure cookers make that claim - "good for canning" - but it simply isn't true and they do a great disservice to the public making such claims. It isn't just the small size which voids the processing times required, but the actual pressure settings and times are wrong and often cannot be adjusted to the correct requirements.
> 
> There are only 3 brands of pressure canners that are approved for home canning - Presto, All American, and Mirro. And the *minimum* approved size to achieve actual pressure and time required is 10-12 quart.


Yes, I realized that after I initially posted. I posted a second time saying "Nevermind" and linked to a website that discusses how those cookers are not adequate for canning.


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## rininger85 (Feb 29, 2016)

For those that are taking the time to try to help educate me let me start by saying thank you, I do appreciate the time spent, I don't want to argue with any of the information but my mind is trying to understand the entire issue with pressure canning so I need to dig in to this deeper rather than just accepting the NCHFP statement on not using the multi cookers for canning, their own admission states the reason they say no is because they don't have the budget to do the research to determine if the multi cookers are safe or not... so in my engineering/scientific mind that does not mean it's not safe to use, it means the world renowned "experts" on canning are too lazy to determine if it is acceptable or not, so I am interested in seeing the actual scientific data to support/determine if it is unsafe... so anyone interested in tagging along please continue reading as I try to pull out and validate as much information as I can from the recommended reading... we might still come to the conclusion that it's not a good idea, but hopefully we're all a little more enlightened in the end one way or the other.

Just one quick note before we dive in regarding cost - it wasn't an issue with cost, it was availability. None of the stores we looked at stock conventional pressure canners in my area. We have an old handy-down pressure canning pot that has been passed down to my wife from one of her grandmas, but we don't have the lid for it so we can use it for water bath canning but needed something else for veggies... looking on Walmart's website they claimed to have conventional pressure canners in stock, we went to the store and they only keep the multi cookers in stock, everything else has to be ordered online and delivered to the store. We also checked Meijer, Bed Bath and Beyond, Target, Kohls, no one stocks conventional pressure canners in store to be able to get them without ordering them and waiting so we decided to try the multi-cooker. I would have preferred a larger pressure canner because the 8qt canner seems small, but it is what we could get without waiting on shipping...

So here we go... I'm reading through the USDA/NCHFP documents now, but I'm not seeing any of the specifics that are being called out here... i.e. 10 to 12 quart size, where does it say that? All I've seen is that it says it needs to be able to fit 4 quart sized jars, which it can. We won't be using any quart jars in pressure canning because the only thing we plan to do quarts for is tomatoes which can be water bath canned, so we're using pints, half pints, and 1/3 pints for beans, pickles, peppers (although this doesn't seem to matter, the important part seems to be temperature maintaining due to size of the pot, and pressure venting properly to remove air prior to canning (which is built in to the vent on this unit, it does vent while heating the water up and then seems to shut the vent off automatically once the unit heats and starts to build pressure which is when the timer starts to count down)

Pressure is another issue, but from what I'm seeing 10 PSI is typically all that is needed, this unit claims to be adjustable and claims to go 0-80 kPA (0-11.6PSI) so in most cases would meet the pressure requirement (I did notice the pressure adjustment setting but did not play around with it, so I will check and see by default what the canning setting is set to when I get home). Beyond that though it says more importantly is the temperature, which from what I've read says it needs to hit 240F, which this unit does (or at least claims to). The most important part of the temperature sounds like reaching the 240 degrees for the correct period of time to kill off botulism in low acid foods. I can't verify that they reached 240 degrees for an extended period of time, but I know they were above 212 because they were boiling inside of the cans when I removed them from the unit (which may not kill botulism bacteria if it's not hitting the 240, I may run a can through again and open it after it is done and stick a thermometer in it to see how hot it is immediately after canning, if it looks like it's hitting the 240 degrees then it's just a matter of making sure it's there long enough, so I can test that by running it for different time periods... check it after 10 minutes and see if it has hit the 240 mark or not, if it did then I could adjust my time based on 10 minutes+minimum safety time to make sure they kill botulism)

Out of the three things that I mentioned canning so far 1) green beans, 2) pickles, 3) jalepenos/hot peppers the green beans definitely need a pressure cooker, the pickles seem to be high enough acid to not need a pressure cooker (and are canned in pickling juice that contains vinegar that increases the acidity), and the peppers were also pickled so contain the vinegar to reduce pH to make them an acidic food. So to me the real concern here (if you aren't practicing blind obedience just because they aren't endorsing multi cookers due to their own disinterest in testing them) out of the three of them would be the green beans. Then from what I'm reading this is still a minor issue as long as you are boiling the green beans when they are cooked to kill off any botulism bacteria. So aside from blind obedience what is the real concern here?


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## Vickie44 (Jul 27, 2010)

Sounds like you have already decided. I follow http://nchfp.uga.edu/ .


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## rininger85 (Feb 29, 2016)

Vickie44 said:


> Sounds like you have already decided. I follow http://nchfp.uga.edu/ .


No, I have not decided. I'm just not going to practice blind obedience... if the data comes out and shows that it's not a good idea then I will accept that... the problem is that not one person on here has actually provided data for why it's not safe, even the people who took the time to point me to the right information following additional links shows that the experts aren't saying it's not safe, they are saying they have not confirmed if it is safe because they have not tested it. If everyone practices blind obedience then we'll never learn anything new we'll only do what we're told to do even if those telling us to do it have no reason to continue telling us to do it. 

Let's think about this in another way... it wasn't until 1919/1920 that women were allowed to vote, so for the first 143-144 years of this country it was not safe for women to vote. If everyone followed blind obedience 50.8% (or more if you also look in to minorities etc.) would still have no right to vote... but because someone questioned why that was the way it was it was changed... OK I'm a bit facetious, but hopefully you get the point that blind obedience without supporting reasoning is just a bad idea, and supporting reasoning needs to be more than "we don't know because we didn't test it because we aren't interested in testing it", at least before I accept it as gospel anyways.


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## arrocks (Oct 26, 2011)

I think the point being made is that a discussion forum is not the place to learn, much less be taught, all one needs to know to practice safe canning at home. But one does need to LEARN first.

There are numerous books available and multiple other online resources as well if you don't care to follow the online USDA guidelines. But you apparently chose to just jump in the deep end and sadly are now confronted with the resulting problems to that approach - potentially very unsafe foods.

Nor is it our responsibility to provide you with documented research into why the guidelines are what they are. All that research is available online. It is then your responsibility to do the necessary research if for no other reason than your own personal safety.

We simply wanted to point out to you that much of what you are doing is considered potentially unsafe by* many *reputable sources and that NCHFP is a good place to start learning. Is it law? Of course not. No one said it was. But it is a great deal of info on all the basics all in one place and whether you agree with it or not it is the foundation resource for all other canning publications. Does everyone strictly adhere to its guidelines? No, each of us determines the level of change and associated risk we are comfortable with. But there is such a thing as too much risk.

The reason why other models of pressure canners are not approved by USDA/NCHFP is not funding related. It is research related and based on simple physics. A volume of water requires a specific amount of time and heat to rise to a certain pressure/temp and to fall from that same pressure and temp. Change the volume and you change the time required.

The processing times required are based on research using average sized canners and then extrapolated from that. The time required to reach pressure and the time required to return to zero ar factored into that processing time. Small canners simply heat up and cool down too quickly thus voiding the recommended processing times. Sure you can compensate for that by extending the processing time with your small canner if you wish but no one knows the added time required so take a guess.

Sorry, edited to add that pressure canning pickles normally results in a very poor quality, mushy pickle so at the very least I'd pass on doing that.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Good luck...


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

arrocks said:


> I think the point being made is that a discussion forum is not the place to learn, much less be taught, all one needs to know to practice safe canning at home. But one does need to LEARN first.
> 
> There are numerous books available and multiple other online resources as well if you don't care to follow the online USDA guidelines. But you apparently chose to just jump in the deep end and sadly are now confronted with the resulting problems to that approach - potentially very unsafe foods.
> 
> ...



I've found forums and discussion boards full of things to learn.


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## arrocks (Oct 26, 2011)

> I've found forums and discussion boards full of things to learn.


Of course one can learn all kinds of things on a forum. But then I didn't say one couldn't. I said "... place to learn...*all one needs to know to practice safe canning at home"*.


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## Itsroger (Aug 28, 2015)

For those that are taking the time to try to help educate me let me start by saying thank you, I do appreciate the time spent, I don't want to argue with any of the information but my mind is trying to understand the entire issue with pressure canning so I need to dig in to this deeper rather than just accepting the NCHFP statement on not using the multi cookers for canning, their own admission states the reason they say no is because they don't have the budget to do the research to determine if the multi cookers are safe or not... so in my engineering/scientific mind that does not mean it's not safe to use, it means the world renowned "experts" on canning are too lazy to determine if it is acceptable or not, so I am interested in seeing the actual scientific data to support/determine if it is unsafe... so anyone interested in tagging along please continue reading as I try to pull out and validate as much information as I can from the recommended reading... we might still come to the conclusion that it's not a good idea, but hopefully we're all a little more enlightened in the end one way or the other.

They haven't done the research to verify that it is safe! By all means you can can stuff any way that you want to, most of us just want to be sure that it's safe for us and our families. It would be a sad day if you do it and find out the hard way that it was contaminated!


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## arrocks (Oct 26, 2011)

> it means the world renowned "experts" on canning are too lazy to determine if it is acceptable or not,


Wow! Nothing like an open mind when learning something new. :hammer: Since when does lack of funding equate to laziness? Since when does the inability to test all equate to lack of validity in any?

No one has advocated any "blind obedience" merely that you have to start somewhere and that is a good place to start. But just as there are basic principles in engineering, so to in home food preservation. Without even a basic understanding of those principles then how is one qualified to determine if some guideline is valid or not? 

Rather than disregarding and scoffing at common practice standards and the recommendations of those who are experienced in the subject, following that advice and the established norms is usually regarded as at least an acceptable starting place in any field of study.

Your safety has been our primary concern since the first post. You can always choose to disregard that issue and us but it isn't really necessary to equate us to a group of blind leading the blind.

Canning in Pressure Cookers http://http://nchfp.uga.edu/publications/nchfp/factsheets/pressurecookers.html

Canning in Electric Multi-Cookers http://nchfp.uga.edu/publications/nchfp/factsheets/electric_cookers.html


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

So I'm going to chime in here and you folks can take it the way you like.

I am an expert at pressure canning.. I'm also an engineer who has designed food processing equipment in the past. 

We can (jars) most of our garden.. we make beef stew, pork stew, pork and beans, canned corn, tomato sauce, tomato paste, canned lard (from the pigs), etc etc.

Canning is a fairly simple science. From an engineering standpoint, it doesn't matter what equipment you use so long as it can take the heat and the pressure needed to get the job done. (more on this below)

Contrary to what a lot of folks think these days, canning modern Roma tomatoes is no longer as safe as it used to be using the water-bath method. (more below)

Canning must do a few things to be successful. It must stop all enzymatic action within the food, kill any and all bacteria, and by far the most important part, it must kill something called a botulism spore. 

Botulism spores are NOT botulism. You eat spores every day in your normal food.. they're in the dirt outside, on your counter, shoes, car, everywhere. But the spores are not harmful unless they find themselves in an environment that allows them to grow into the live botulism bacteria which produces the botulism toxin. That environment is one which has a pH above around 4.5 or 4.6, is devoid of oxygen, and at around room temperature or so. 
In other words, inside an improperly processed canning jar in your pantry. 

So with that in mind, here is the very simple, and very effective, procedure to can foods. 

All vegetables should be canned at 15 psi for at least 30 minutes in quart jars.. 20 minutes if using pints. (pints are smaller and the heat from the canner penetrates to the center much faster so less time is needed.)

Some people will can tomatoes in their various chopped up states, inside normal atmospheric water bath canners. If the tomatoes are acidic enough, or if you add extra acid to them, (must be below 4.5), then this is a fairly safe method. 
The thing is, a lot of the modern varieties of tomatoes these days are not as acidic as the old varieties.. major problem as most folks don't have a quality and reliable pH tester in their back pocket and those who do usually don't have a clue how to use it. 
So, the solution is just to can all veggies at 15ps and the appropriate amount of time.
I should note one other thing.. Veggies canned with a pressure canner always last longer and come out better than those canned with the water bath technique. 

So you want to can something with meat in it eh? No problem. 
Quarts and Pints.. 15 psi for 90 minutes. I don't care if its just meat, or some kind of stew or soup recipe.. if it has even a small amount of meat in it, you go 15psi for 90 minutes for quarts or jars.
You must also pre-heat all the meat (and other ingredients) in a pot of boiling water to bring it up to temperature before putting it in the canning jars. It doesn't need to be fully cooked, but you do want it hot.

IMPORTANT: You do NOT start your timer until your unit has reached the desired pressure!!! 
It is also important that you let the canner PURGE for 10 to 15 mintues before you let it climb in pressure. 
PUGRING allows the contents of the canner to equalize so the center is closer to the same temperature as the outside. 

So, you put your food in the jars, jars go into canner, close the lid, turn on heat and wait... When you see steam pouring out the valve, you start your timer for 10 to 15 minutes (Purging).. When the timer goes off, you close the valve and let the pressure build.. waiting again until you reach the desired pressure.. Once the desired pressure is reached, you set your countdown timer for the appropriate time. 
When the timer goes off, you just turn off the heat and walk away. DO NOT release the pressure.. let the canner cool on its own and the pressure will come down on its own slowly. 

When the canner has reached a point where its only barely warm to the touch, you can then open the pressure valve.. there shouldn't be any pressure and if you hear it hissing, close it right away and walk away.. (you came back too fast). 
HINT: When I turn off the heat, I just walk away until the next morning and let it cool for 8 hours naturally.

Once the unit is cooled, you're done! Open it up, pull the cans out, wash or wipe them down, and then give each lid a little push in the center to make sure it sealed. (I use a sharpie marker to put the date on mine)

I also remove the screw rings so I can use them on the next batch. There is absolutely no reason to leave them on and they can cause the lids to rust quicker if you do. 

Hope that helps,
Hope I didn't miss anything.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Just thought I would add a few tips for a better success rate:

Inspect your jars before using them! Take a close look at the rim where the seal makes contact. Any nicks or deep scratches and the jar is junk. Our basic rule is that if you can feel it with your fingernail, its probably too much of a defect for a quality job. 


When we fill our jars, before putting the ring on them, we use a clean towel to wipe the rim to make sue it is clean and dry and that no food particles have splashed up onto the surface where the seal makes contact.

A lot of people think that the rings that hold the lids in place should be tight.. THIS IS BAD! After placing the lid on the jar, screw the ring down until it makes contact with the lid.. then, using just your thumb and your finger (not your hold hand), tighten the ring down just a bit more, about the same amount of pressure a 3 year old could exert on it. 

When placing the jars in the canner, be careful not to tip them. You do not want any of the liquid splashing up into that sealing surface area. 

Always inspect the little rubber sealing surface on your lids before using them. I've seen a lot of them with small manufacturing defects straight out of Ball Corp. Seems we find a bad lid at a rate of 1 in 50 or so.


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## Echoesechos (Jan 22, 2010)

So when you say cans you mean cans not canning jars. I have never meddled in cans before so hopefully I will learn something here too. I have the correct pressure canner for jars and have canned for many years. Do you have a county extension service near you. This might be the time to travel to talk to them. I would hate for you to lose all your hard work or get sick you might even find what you are using to be effective and safe. Please keep posting so I can learn.

Also a site I reference is canning granny or grannie not sure which.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I'm also a canning expert. Don't want to be rude, but I'll say it straight. I would never go to all the learen to cann with something that only takes 4 jars. Find a regular canner that will take 18 pints. I'm here in Michigan, would you like me to find you a canner?
eta. Your Ace hardware has Canners.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

7thswan said:


> I'm also a canning expert. .


I didn't mean it like I was some authority on canning.. I should have posted those words differently.


Buy an All American Canner if you are going to do a lot of canning. They are the best canners made. (in my "expert":bow: opinion)


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Murby said:


> I didn't mean it like I was some authority on canning.. I should have posted those words differently.
> 
> 
> Buy an All American Canner if you are going to do a lot of canning. They are the best canners made. (in my "expert":bow: opinion)


Naww, it's OK ,I understood. For me, probably "overly, to the point of obsessively, Experienced" would have been proper. If it says still to long and possibly edible ,it's canning fodder.
Ya, AA are the best. Tho I do have all my others,and their gaskets,just incase.


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## rininger85 (Feb 29, 2016)

arrocks said:


> Wow! Nothing like an open mind when learning something new. :hammer: Since when does lack of funding equate to laziness? Since when does the inability to test all equate to lack of validity in any?
> 
> No one has advocated any "blind obedience" merely that you have to start somewhere and that is a good place to start. But just as there are basic principles in engineering, so to in home food preservation. Without even a basic understanding of those principles then how is one qualified to determine if some guideline is valid or not?
> 
> ...



I'm not scoffing at common practice by any means. I'm just asking about the science behind it. Go back and take a look at all of the responses that blindly said you cannot can with the multi cooker... that is blind obedience, making claims that it cannot be done because the USDA / NCHFP says it is unsafe when they do not say that, they say they cannot verify if they are safe. That is two completely different things but everyone who responded initially jumped my case for wanting to learn the science behind it... 

*If you aren't interested in the science behind it and "it works because they say it works" is good enough for you then get the heck off my thread, you don't need to put your input in if that's all you have to add to the conversation. * If you want to actually try to learn about what you are doing so you understand what is actually happening then by all means join in, that's what I'm trying to get to. 

The fact of the matter is that there are very specific requirements needed to safely can in order to kill off the botulism spores. Just because the USDA/NCHFP have not tested the electronic units does NOT mean they are not safe. It might mean their guidelines (times) don't work for canning in electric units, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. It is a matter of temperature (not even pressure from what I've found so far... the pressure is just used to get the temperature up because water cannot be heated beyond boiling 212F without applying pressure so the only reason pressure comes in to the discussion is how much pressure it takes to heat the water from 212F to 240F) and time, so if you use the USDA guidelines and run a test on the electronic units to see how they compare in heat up/cool down you (or at least anyone with an understanding of science, so maybe not specifically every "YOU" who might read this...) can make some pretty safe assumptions about what it would take to use the electric units. The general feeling I have from the responses here is that most people could care less about knowing HOW it works, all they care is that it does work. Well I want to know HOW it works, so if that doesn't interest you then move along.



Murby said:


> Canning is a fairly simple science. From an engineering standpoint, it doesn't matter what equipment you use so long as it can take the heat and the pressure needed to get the job done. (more on this below)


This is exactly what I am getting at... everyone thinks that it can't be done just because some government agency says they haven't tried it (and those people are misinterpreting "we haven't tested it" with "it can't be done")... the science behind it does not change based on what equipment you use... so if you know the science and validate that your tool can handle what you need then you don't need to blindly follow someone who has no interest in testing new technology to determine if it will work. Really the only reason I'm even interested in finding this out now is because there are some real a-hole responses on here when all I did was ask a simple question, so now it's more just to try and prove those a-holes wrong. If I find out they are right well then we can at least say someone has tested the electronic unit to have some actual data to back up that it shouldn't be used not just the lack of a test saying it shouldn't be used.



Echoesechos said:


> So when you say cans you mean cans not canning jars. I have never meddled in cans before so hopefully I will learn something here too. I have the correct pressure canner for jars and have canned for many years. Do you have a county extension service near you. This might be the time to travel to talk to them. I would hate for you to lose all your hard work or get sick you might even find what you are using to be effective and safe. Please keep posting so I can learn.
> 
> Also a site I reference is canning granny or grannie not sure which.


Excuse me for saying cans, I meant canning jars. Fantastic language when we talk about canning but we don't can in cans we can in jars, shouldn't it be called "jarring"? 


I'm a bit busy right now so not sure when I'll get the chance to run some tests on the unit to see what the actual temperatures it is hitting are, but I'll revive this thread to post results one way or the other once I get a chance to do it (will happen before we can our next batch so probably within a week or two). If you never hear from me again just assume I died from eating botulism bacteria in my unsafely canned food (even though it can still be made safe to eat by boiling it for 10 minutes when cooking it even if it was canned unsafely). :gaptooth:


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

rininger85 said:


> I'm not scoffing at common practice by any means. I'm just asking about the science behind it. Go back and take a look at all of the responses that blindly said you cannot can with the multi cooker... that is blind obedience, making claims that it cannot be done because the USDA / NCHFP says it is unsafe when they do not say that, they say they cannot verify if they are safe. That is two completely different things but everyone who responded initially jumped my case for wanting to learn the science behind it...
> 
> *If you aren't interested in the science behind it and "it works because they say it works" is good enough for you then get the heck off my thread, you don't need to put your input in if that's all you have to add to the conversation. * If you want to actually try to learn about what you are doing so you understand what is actually happening then by all means join in, that's what I'm trying to get to.
> 
> ...


Your pressure cooker seems to lack a pressure/temperature gauge. Without an indicating device that verifies the temperature and pressure, how will you know if your unit has achieved the necessary parameters for a safe process? 

Your pressure cooker/canner will probably work fine for canning veggies but I wouldn't feel comfortable canning meats with it. 
The reason is that while it is capable of canning meats, it is barely capable.. 

The technical specifications listed for your unit seem to indicate that it will have to max out its performance envelope in order to reach the desired parameters. When canning meats, you need to reach an absolute minimum temperature of 240 degrees which works out to the ~80 KpaG listed as the specs on your canner. This is kind of like pushing the gas pedal all the way down on your vehicle to see how fast it will go.. Just not the wisest of things to do. One little glitch is all it takes.

You might then ask "so why do they say it can can meats?" 
Because it is technically capable.. and if it fails because its internal thermocouple temperature reader is off and someone gets sick or dies... well.. good luck suing China where its probably made.

Pressure canners are almost all capable of reaching 15psi which blows well past the 240 degree mark and provides a bit of wiggle room for process variables. 

But ya.. I wouldn't have any problems doing veggies in that thing.. especially tomatoes. 

Botulism poisoning is a painful and agonizing death. The botulism toxin is the single most powerful neuro-toxin known to mankind and is one of the top candidates for bio weapons.

The only "save" in all this doom and gloom is that the toxin is actually just a protein and it can be destroyed at about 170 degrees F. But I wouldn't bet my life on that when I eat.. I'd rather just throw it out.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Yup. Noone is trying to be mean, we are not allowed to get into debates here,so many will just shut down.
Botulism is like Rabies of the canning world. Ya, just don't take chances.


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## Echoesechos (Jan 22, 2010)

rininger85 said:


> I'm not scoffing at common practice by any means. I'm just asking about the science behind it. Go back and take a look at all of the responses that blindly said you cannot can with the multi cooker... that is blind obedience, making claims that it cannot be done because the USDA / NCHFP says it is unsafe when they do not say that, they say they cannot verify if they are safe. That is two completely different things but everyone who responded initially jumped my case for wanting to learn the science behind it...
> 
> *If you aren't interested in the science behind it and "it works because they say it works" is good enough for you then get the heck off my thread, you don't need to put your input in if that's all you have to add to the conversation. * If you want to actually try to learn about what you are doing so you understand what is actually happening then by all means join in, that's what I'm trying to get to.
> 
> ...


Jarring would seem more appropriate wouldn't it? Just wasn't sure so thanks for clarifying. I'm just excited someone is starting to can. I've been on a real jam kick here lately. Got some cherries (which had some worms), apricots and Italian prunes yesterday to make more.. I love to give as gifts, just hate losing the jars. Please do let us know on how things go for you. I love to read about others doings.


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## mtviolet (Jan 17, 2012)

Several elderly people refer to home canning in canning jars as "bottling".


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## Echoesechos (Jan 22, 2010)

mtviolet said:


> Several elderly people refer to home canning in canning jars as "bottling".


My mother in laws family called it that.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

rininger85 said:


> *If you aren't interested in the science behind it and "it works because they say it works" is good enough for you then get the heck off my thread, you don't need to put your input in if that's all you have to add to the conversation. *


I find that to be incredibly rude. arrocks has tried to be helpful. It's possible for you to just take what info you want and disregard the rest, and not be rude instead.


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## arrocks (Oct 26, 2011)

Thank you Katie. But it's ok. Some people would rather bash on the round hole trying to make their square peg fit and reinvent the wheel at the same time than admit they might have made a mistake.


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## ceresone (Oct 7, 2005)

One more thought, on the AA canner, someone said they sometimes leave it overnight to be cool--remember the person that came on here asking about not being able to get the lid off after doing this? i have to admit, that alarmed me, so I just make sure its cool frst. Even my Daughters dont understand why I am so careful to follow all the new advice, but like I tell them, perhaps when we didnt know better--we were just lucky


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## rininger85 (Feb 29, 2016)

Murby said:


> Your pressure cooker seems to lack a pressure/temperature gauge. Without an indicating device that verifies the temperature and pressure, how will you know if your unit has achieved the necessary parameters for a safe process?
> 
> Your pressure cooker/canner will probably work fine for canning veggies but I wouldn't feel comfortable canning meats with it.
> The reason is that while it is capable of canning meats, it is barely capable..
> ...


It does not have external pressure or temp indicators, so my plan when I get back to it is to simply run a few tests and document what the temperatures are at each stage - let it run until it just starts to apply pressure, stop it and get a temperature reading inside, start it again and let it cook 10 minutes on pressure, stop it and get a temperature reading inside, let it cook for 20 minutes on pressure, stop it get a temperature reading inside etc. etc. It does have a quick release to drop pressure and be able to open it pretty quickly, so I will see what the temperatures are that way (knowing that they will be lower than the actual temperatures would have been because it's going to cool off quickly by blowing the steam out to release pressure). If this doesn't pan out then I have some old scuba diving gauges that may be able to record temperature / pressure internally (assuming they don't melt/shatter, but not too worried if they do as I don't use them for anything). If that doesn't work my wife has access to lots of lab equipment that we might be able to come up with something that would work. If not it's not a big deal we'll buy a bigger pressure canner (plan on it anyways just because of the amount of time it takes to can, the electric one was really just to get us by until we find a bigger one but all of the negative posts is making me want to do the testing to see what it's really capable of).

We don't plan on canning any meats, only veggies (and some veggies that are OK freezing we'll freeze), and the tomatoes will just be water bathed. We have lots of freezer space for meat (currently the remains of 2 deer, a full hog, a couple dozen chickens, fish and other random items in the freezer so not even interested in trying to can meat).



Echoesechos said:


> Jarring would seem more appropriate wouldn't it? Just wasn't sure so thanks for clarifying. I'm just excited someone is starting to can. I've been on a real jam kick here lately. Got some cherries (which had some worms), apricots and Italian prunes yesterday to make more.. I love to give as gifts, just hate losing the jars. Please do let us know on how things go for you. I love to read about others doings.


We do make a few different kinds of jam, but it's always freezer jam so not really canned. We made some strawberry rhubarb jam (which won't last long because it's my favorite that my grandma used to always make me)... we found a local guy with a ton of rhubarb for sale so made a big batch (mine isn't growing big yet). We planted raspberries and strawberries last year which we were able to get quite a few raspberries this year and a few strawberries, but hoping both of those fill in more for larger harvests in coming years, this year we just ate everything we picked instead of making jam... We added more strawberry plants to help fill in but they didn't do well this year, hoping they come back next year... that seems to be what happened to the strawberries we planted last year, they seemed to die off but then grew this year so hopefully the same for the ones we added this year. We also transplanted some blueberry bushes this year and I just picked the first 4 blueberries that have ripened last night. I planted apple trees, a peach tree, pear tree and cherry tree this year so hopefully we'll have those in a few years. I need to figure out where I want to put some grape vines so we can have home raised grapes to make jam out of too, but only so much time in the day haven't got it all worked out yet.... a little more every year...


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

You should probably pick up another cherry tree or two when you get your new AA canner.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

rininger85 said:


> It does not have external pressure or temp indicators,


Then I would not use it.. not for anything.

Pressure and temperature indicator is so important it can not be understated. Without them, you're just guessing.... Personally, I would not put my family's health and well being at risk in such fashion when there are such simple solutions to doing it right.

If humanity was just turned into blood sucking zombies and only a few people were left alive, maybe.. as a desperate measure.. 

I would strongly suggest you just go purchase an All American canner of the appropriate size and follow the post I made about how to can. And forget the water bath if you do get one as your tomatoes will come out better in a pressure canner.


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## Echoesechos (Jan 22, 2010)

rininger85 said:


> It does not have external pressure or temp indicators, so my plan when I get back to it is to simply run a few tests and document what the temperatures are at each stage - let it run until it just starts to apply pressure, stop it and get a temperature reading inside, start it again and let it cook 10 minutes on pressure, stop it and get a temperature reading inside, let it cook for 20 minutes on pressure, stop it get a temperature reading inside etc. etc. It does have a quick release to drop pressure and be able to open it pretty quickly, so I will see what the temperatures are that way (knowing that they will be lower than the actual temperatures would have been because it's going to cool off quickly by blowing the steam out to release pressure). If this doesn't pan out then I have some old scuba diving gauges that may be able to record temperature / pressure internally (assuming they don't melt/shatter, but not too worried if they do as I don't use them for anything). If that doesn't work my wife has access to lots of lab equipment that we might be able to come up with something that would work. If not it's not a big deal we'll buy a bigger pressure canner (plan on it anyways just because of the amount of time it takes to can, the electric one was really just to get us by until we find a bigger one but all of the negative posts is making me want to do the testing to see what it's really capable of).
> 
> We don't plan on canning any meats, only veggies (and some veggies that are OK freezing we'll freeze), and the tomatoes will just be water bathed. We have lots of freezer space for meat (currently the remains of 2 deer, a full hog, a couple dozen chickens, fish and other random items in the freezer so not even interested in trying to can meat).
> 
> ...


I made the same jam. I put composted horse manure on my rhubarb every fall. Rhubarb loves horse manure. I too got three blueberry bushes this year. I don't have freezer room. Lol Even with two freezers. My raspy are getting close ok see to being ripe.Yum.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

rininger85 said:


> It does not have external pressure or temp indicators, so my plan when I get back to it is to simply run a few tests and document what the temperatures are at each stage - let it run until it just starts to apply pressure, stop it and get a temperature reading inside, start it again and let it cook 10 minutes on pressure, stop it and get a temperature reading inside, let it cook for 20 minutes on pressure, stop it get a temperature reading inside etc. etc. It does have a quick release to drop pressure and be able to open it pretty quickly, so I will see what the temperatures are that way (knowing that they will be lower than the actual temperatures would have been because it's going to cool off quickly by blowing the steam out to release pressure). If this doesn't pan out then I have some old scuba diving gauges that may be able to record temperature / pressure internally (assuming they don't melt/shatter, but not too worried if they do as I don't use them for anything). If that doesn't work my wife has access to lots of lab equipment that we might be able to come up with something that would work. If not it's not a big deal we'll buy a bigger pressure canner (plan on it anyways just because of the amount of time it takes to can, the electric one was really just to get us by until we find a bigger one but all of the negative posts is making me want to do the testing to see what it's really capable of).
> 
> We don't plan on canning any meats, only veggies (and some veggies that are OK freezing we'll freeze), and the tomatoes will just be water bathed. We have lots of freezer space for meat (currently the remains of 2 deer, a full hog, a couple dozen chickens, fish and other random items in the freezer so not even interested in trying to can meat).
> 
> ...


How are you planning on testing the temperature inside the jars since, when canning, the internal temperature of the food is the important factor? Will you be popping the lids on boiling hot food or using the temperature of the canner and extrapolating from there?


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## Kristinemomof3 (Sep 17, 2012)

SLFarmMI said:


> How are you planning on testing the temperature inside the jars since, when canning, the internal temperature of the food is the important factor? Will you be popping the lids on boiling hot food or using the temperature of the canner and extrapolating from there?



If you are popping lids, that just serms too dangerous, plus it's not safe to open it at full pressure. Save yourself medical bills from either botulism or a serious burn & invest in a regular pressure canner.


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## Echoesechos (Jan 22, 2010)

Just had a thought. But if you are popping lids the above poster mentioned could your jars be to full??


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## Kristinemomof3 (Sep 17, 2012)

Echoesechos said:


> Just had a thought. But if you are popping lids the above poster mentioned could your jars be to full??



They mentioned popping lids to take temperatures. SMH.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

I was going to give a physics lesson on why stopping the canning process in the middle is a bad idea but the post would get too long and too involved. I don't feel like discussing the triple points of water and the rest of the physics that go into it.

So I'm going to shorten it up.

When you release the pressure in a pressure canner, it must be done over a long period of time... greater than an hour on my canner that's slightly bigger than a 5 gallon bucket.
Smaller canners probably cool down quicker than larger ones.

If you release the pressure too fast, the contents inside the jars will degas violently and most likely blow some of those contents out of the jars through the seal. This can easily result in a jar that doesn't seal properly or last very long on the shelf.

So opening a canner to check temperatures mid-process won't work.. its an all-or-nothing procedure.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Kristinemomof3 said:


> They mentioned popping lids to take temperatures. SMH.


I asked that particular question because, in the testing process the poster indicated he would be following, he was unclear in his process to determine the internal temperature of the jars. How exactly is he going to determine the internal temperature (btw, how does NCHFP do it?)? 

To me, it seems like it makes better sense to avoid all this work and just purchase equipment and follow procedures that have already been tested and determined safe. Seems like reinventing the wheel to me. But to each his own.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

I wonder how humanity somehow survived before all these new-fangle and expensive gadgets.....they probably canned on the stove top like I have successfully done forever. like my parents before me and their parents before them (well except the parents before them did it with woodstoves instead of electric ones).


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Declan said:


> I wonder how humanity somehow survived before all these new-fangle and expensive gadgets.....they probably canned on the stove top like I have successfully done forever. like my parents before me and their parents before them (well except the parents before them did it with woodstoves instead of electric ones).


And they frequently got sick and died when something went wrong. 

Water bath canning acidic foods is quite easy... Pressure canning high pH foods is a bit trickier.

People used to drive without seat belts too! That doesn't mean it as a good idea.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

Murby said:


> And they frequently got sick and died when something went wrong.
> 
> Water bath canning acidic foods is quite easy... Pressure canning high pH foods is a bit trickier.
> 
> People used to drive without seat belts too! That doesn't mean it as a good idea.


NO my parents, grandparents, or myself have never died from canned food. So far as I know, they have never been sickened by it either. Heck they used to can sausage in jars covered with grease. :smack


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## arrocks (Oct 26, 2011)

Declan what are the new fangled expensive gadgets you are referring to? The electric pressure cookers I assume? or do you mean to include stove top pressure canners too?


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

arrocks said:


> Declan what are the new fangled expensive gadgets you are referring to? The electric pressure cookers I assume? or do you mean to include stove top pressure canners too?


You can water bath can on a stove top with an eye and a flatbottom pot. There is no need for the rest unless you are attempting to can meat based soups.


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## arrocks (Oct 26, 2011)

Declan said:


> You can water bath can on a stove top with an eye and a flatbottom pot. There is no need for the rest unless you are attempting to can meat based soups.


Sure if you want to boil them in that bath for several hours and then boil them again after opening the jars to destroy the toxins. 

But why go to all that work, waste all that water, steam up the whole house, burn up all that heating energy when you can accomplish the same thing with a pressure canner in 20-60 mins. and use 1/4 of the water, 1/4 of the electricity or gas or wood and safely eat them right out of the jar?


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

arrocks said:


> Sure if you want to boil them in that bath for several hours and then boil them again after opening the jars to destroy the toxins.
> 
> But why go to all that work, waste all that water, steam up the whole house, burn up all that heating energy when you can accomplish the same thing with a pressure canner in 20-60 mins. and use 1/4 of the water, 1/4 of the electricity or gas or wood and safely eat them right out of the jar?


I do it all in an hour. Sorry I have not died yet. I guess some families have sturdier genetics than others.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Declan said:


> NO my parents, grandparents, or myself have never died from canned food. So far as I know, they have never been sickened by it either. Heck they used to can sausage in jars covered with grease. :smack


Oh I understand.. People drive cars without seat belts and they don't die.. But its not really very wise right?

My point is that if you don't process the food properly, you greatly increase your chances of getting sick or worse.

Its just not worth it.. especially when getting the right equipment is so easy to do.


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## Kristinemomof3 (Sep 17, 2012)

Murby said:


> Oh I understand.. People drive cars without seat belts and they don't die.. But its not really very wise right?
> 
> My point is that if you don't process the food properly, you greatly increase your chances of getting sick or worse.
> 
> Its just not worth it.. especially when getting the right equipment is so easy to do.


You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. 

We can educate peope the best we can, but people will ultimately do what they want, playing Russian Roulette along the way. Not worth the risk for me to make my family sick.


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## arrocks (Oct 26, 2011)

> I do it all in an hour. Sorry I have not died yet. I guess some families have sturdier genetics than others.


Oh I can think of several other possible explanations. You might want to think about taking a trip to Vegas. Then again that might be really pushing your luck.


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## Kristinemomof3 (Sep 17, 2012)

Remember last summer with the botulism case in Ohio: http://outbreaknewstoday.com/ohio-b...as-health-officials-close-in-on-source-89049/


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## countryfied2011 (Jul 5, 2011)

Murby I am just curious as to why you keep saying:


> All vegetables should be canned at 15 psi for at least 30 minutes in quart jars.. 20 minutes if using pints. (pints are smaller and the heat from the canner penetrates to the center much faster so less time is needed.)


My elevation calls for 11 psi or 10lbs my mileage varies....and i am sure there are others..:shrug: 

I understand where the OP is coming from although I follow USDA guidelines or Ball when canning. Ball just released their new book and they have changed a few requirements. They retracting some of their guidelines after more testing. 

And as long as he understands the risks and knows to boil low acid veggies what harm is he doing trying to find a different way to do it or testing. The op doesn't sound ignorant. 

I am curious find out what he learns


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

countryfied2011 said:


> Murby I am just curious as to why you keep saying:
> 
> My elevation calls for 11 psi or 10lbs my mileage varies....and i am sure there are others..:shrug:


10 or 11 psi would probably be fine but I prefer to take it up over the top so as to eliminate any chances.
I also find that the jars processed under higher pressures tend to last longer and have fewer sealing defects. 

But I wouldn't be against someone running at 10 or 11 psi as you say.. 




> And as long as he understands the risks and knows to boil low acid veggies what harm is he doing trying to find a different way to do it or testing. The op doesn't sound ignorant.


Because most people think they understand but don't... Ever see someone drive without a seat belt? Put them in a seat-belt simulator one time and you'll never see them drive without it again.. and yet, we have messages all over about how dangerous even low speed accidents can be for unrestrained passengers. 
So why is it that with all these "seat belts save lives" messages, we still have idiots running around without seat belts? Its because even though they hear the words, see the data, and think they understand the risks, they actually do not comprehend it. ya.. its a weird human condition... 

There's another thread in these forums about gun safety and a story one member posted about how he learned about guns.. Apparently, his father showed him first hand what a firearm projectile will do to the head of a deer.. Even went so far as to let the child fire the weapon himself and inspect the blown off head of the deer.. 1st hand experience is one of the absolute best ways to teach.. you can tell a child how dangerous a gun is, you can show the photos, reports, make up cute little rhymes, it won't have the same effect as seeing it first hand.

This applies to botulism poisoning as well. The phrase "Most powerful neurotoxin known to man" should be a hint.. But people still don't put that seat-belt on. 

So ya.. 10psi is good.. I prefer 15.... If my canner would allow it, I would go 10psi for the first part and then boost to 15 psi for the last 10 minutes.. but my canner won't allow me to change like that.


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## countryfied2011 (Jul 5, 2011)

> 10 or 11 psi would probably be fine but I prefer to take it up over the top so as to eliminate any chances.
> I also find that the jars processed under higher pressures tend to last longer and have fewer sealing defects.
> 
> But I wouldn't be against someone running at 10 or 11 psi as you say..


Not to be argumentative but...._that is only Your opinion...not fact_. USDA and Ball recommend certain PSI under certain elevations. Your quote again :



> All vegetables should be canned at 15 psi for at least 30 minutes in quart jars.. 20 minutes if using pints. (pints are smaller and the heat from the canner penetrates to the center much faster so less time is needed.)


 Why would the USDA recommend a different PSI if it wasn't applicable? Also it is 25 minutes for green beans if you are following the recommended guidelines. So you yourself are not following standards. You are doing it the way you want to do it. 

I am not a master canner, but I have been canning for 9 years, knock on wood I have never had not one seal failure...(oh i know it will eventually happened) I just ate a pork loin the other night that was canned two years ago. The closest I have come to have something not work is a few lids buckled on green beans from tightening to tight and i re-canned them. 

Regardless if "seat belts save lives" etc. It is not our job to force someone to wear them and I dont think it is the governments responsibility. Forcing someone and recommending someone to do something is two different things. But that is off on a bunny trail.

imho the op has the right to try what he wants...just like you have the right to use 15psi and 30 minutes on your green beans....neither way is recommended for everyone!


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## arrocks (Oct 26, 2011)

There are 'norms', standards of practice in most any activity. Their limits, their range, is defined by degrees of negative impact on oneself or others. And that range of standard practice is usually fairly wide. For example, choosing to not wear a seat belt in a car with front and side air bags vs. not wearing one in an old car without even a lap belt.

So if one is going to deviate from that norm range, isn't it better/safer to deviate toward the positive side of that range rather than toward the negative side? 

We can't "force" anyone to do anything. There are no canning police. We can advise, can recommend but ultimately they choose. But when making those recommendations don't we have a moral responsibility to encourage them toward the positive side of the standard practice rather than toward the negative? To recommend they use the safer practices rather than experimenting with potentially risky ones?

In home food preservation it is better to be safe, even overly safe, than sorry.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

countryfied2011 said:


> Why would the USDA recommend a different PSI if it wasn't applicable? Also it is 25 minutes for green beans if you are following the recommended guidelines. So you yourself are not following standards. You are doing it the way you want to do it.


I exceed the standard... not fall short of it.


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