# whoa



## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

How do you teach a beast to whoa, when they weigh 10X what you do and they just walk right thru you?


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## Kel T (Aug 19, 2011)

Stud chain. They respect the heck out of that.


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

Kel T said:


> Stud chain. They respect the heck out of that.


Darn Skippy.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

With firmness. 
You carry a crop or whip. If he invades your space, you use it.

To stop when he is on a lead, if he insists on pulling rather than stopping, you pull his head sideways and circle him around you. He'll stop sooner or later when he doesn't find himself getting where he was aiming. Horses are not so able to pull sideways as they are straight ahead.
But it would be best to spend some time training him to back. You'd have a halter and lead rope and a crop. You use pressure on the halter to ask him to back up as you take a small step towards him and say "back." If he does back a bit, you pause and let him relax a second, then do it again. If he doesn't back, you ask more firmly and add a tap on his chest. Eventually he should readily back as much as you want. 
Then when you indicate he's to stop, you'll have the tool to not let him pull you along. You can derail his pull by asking for a back. And ask him to back until he has his eye on you and is ready to back. He will have left off dragging you forward.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Oh, and every time he pulls, he's backed. Every time. Until he lets go of the pulling.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

Rope halters work better than typical nylon ones for imparting a sense of "feel" - a sharp pop of the lead rope will make his nose smart, and the smack of a crop across his chest will make forward seem like a really bad idea.

I'm not a fan of stud chains as a first resort, but will use one as a last if nothing else works. Too few people know how to use them properly.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

I watched Clinton Anderson work with a horse that didn't want to stop when being lead and would charge on ahead of him and he would immediately start lunging the horse and then went off walking again or he would stop and if the horse didn't stop, he immediately started making it back up and hustle when he did it. It didn't take long before that horse figured out not to pass Clinton.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

What type of beast are you trying to stop?


Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## mulemom (Feb 17, 2013)

Lots of good suggestions 'lonely'. One thing I used to do is start in the barn aisle. Wall on my left and horse on my right. Say whoa once 'firm not shouting' and turn their head to the wall-hold it so they can't turn left or right so the wall is directly in front of them. Even a slight stop is success-then push their head forward away from you and walk a few more steps. Repeat every few steps going down the aisle then turn and do it going the other way. Always use whoa just before putting their head to the wall-you want the horse to associate the word with stopping. This way you can pull their head to you which moves their body away (not as likely to get stepped on) and you can still push their head away if they try to turn toward you. The trick is to make the horse bump his nose because he didn't pay attention to the word. Don't overuse whoa-you want it to mean something when you use it. Once you get him to stop then a couple of steps back each time will reinforce the whoa. 100lbs can out leverage a thousand pound horse but it takes a lot of practice and i can attest to the fact that you'll lose a lot of hide learning. Lots easier to outsmart them. I do the same when starting a colt driving or under saddle-aim for a wall and use whoa. When they stop let 'em stand for a little bit as a reward. Good Luck!


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## mulemom (Feb 17, 2013)

Something I forgot Lonely. If you opt for the stud chain be careful. Horses can react violently to pain they don't understand. Use it lightly as reinforcement until he starts to understand his bad behaviour caused it.


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## loli (Aug 14, 2011)

Whoa is one of those absolute words. It only means one thing, stop! Most people use it for everything and it has no meaning. Ours are all taught it from the beginning and Clinton Anderson has the right idea. JMHO on this


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

With a bit, haltered and tied, while sacking. Move and get a correction.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I guess I should have clarified. I'm talking about a gigantic donkey, female. She's just about 16 hands to her back. She doesn't run away or anything like that. She just walks forward and doesn't stop. She's not at all excitable. It doesn't matter whats in her way. I have been working with her, but she hasn't got it yet. 

For example, the barn is single isle. I had them in there during the blizzard we just had. They don't handle the wind well. When it was her turn to leave, she was ready. Rather than wait for me to get her snapped up, she decided it was time to leave and she went. The fact that I was in her path was of no consequence, lol.

I've learned the giant donkeys are SO smart, once they get it, they got it, for the most part. 
I just thought maybe someone would have a suggestion I had not yet thought of.

And because she is a donkey, no outward punishment. That doesn't do anything for a donkey but create feelings of resentment. They are not horse-like in that respect.

The 'commanding them to back' when they wont stop is a good idea. Were working on back up. She almost gets it.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

How old is your mule? Her age and training experience might help to suggest some different approaches. 

Since you've already begun to back her up I would be inclined to keep up your efforts in that area. Personally I like to offer my horses the opportunity to stand (whoa) early in their training. Ground tying is a good excercise that can be easily taught if the handler is consistent in correcting any unasked for movement. ie, Ask for whoa and use movement forward or backward as a correction if she moves a foot. It sounds like your problem was before you had a lead line attached though and they would be needed to enable you to make the corrections clearly with this method. 

Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Donkey, not mule. I had a mule once, BIG difference, she was EVIL. I don't have her anymore..thank goodness!

She is 5. She was just saddle broke when I got her and needs lots of head work and sacking. She leads really well and lifts feet and holds them up with a light finger touch. I'll take a picture of her in a bit and post it here.

I picked up 4 mammoth donkeys just before Christmas. I am madly in love with them. Its no wonder horses never did it for me. Must be the ears.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I have a question about donkeys. You say no punishment, but the pictures I've seen of donkeys in the Middle East or other places have shown the poor donks being hit constantly. 
This is not to doubt but a real question as I have never had contact with other than a mule and little of that.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Thats because in other countries, people don't tend to care about animal welfare. They don't care about trust between humans and animals. They are expendable, don't have feelings and are nothing more than tools to perform a job, and by golly, they better perform. 

Donkeys are smart. They remember a long long time. If you outwardly punish a donkey, it builds resentment and sooner or later they will pay you back when you least expect it. Its one thing to be firm, or offer cause/effect consequence. Quite another to issue punishment.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

With horses, to teach whoa, you have to first make it a reward. A release. Put them in a situation where they want to stop and then tell them whoa and allow them to stop.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

People don't think horses have any sense of justice but they do. More than once I have seen a horse be "offended" by misplaced anger. It depends on the nature of the horse what the result is.
Once in my youth, I hit a horse because I was angry, and not because he was doing something aggressive. He simply refused to look at me for two whole weeks. If I came into his stall, he turned his head away. I was totally mortified by this gentleman of a horse. 
Another time I watched a woman hit a horse for no reason he could see. I saw him half close his eyes while he watched whatever she did. He did this for days until one time she was walking past and he popped her with a hind leg. He immediately stopped following her with his eyes and went to dozing. He settled the score in his own mind and it was over. She was oblivious about the whole thing.
Horses tend to be pretty forgiving but not always.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> Thats because in other countries, people don't tend to care about animal welfare. They don't care about trust between humans and animals. They are expendable, don't have feelings and are nothing more than tools to perform a job, and by golly, they better perform.
> 
> Donkeys are smart. They remember a long long time. If you outwardly punish a donkey, it builds resentment and sooner or later they will pay you back when you least expect it. Its one thing to be firm, or offer cause/effect consequence. Quite another to issue punishment.



You are going to get hurt. Misplaced kindness and compassion have hurt a lot of people, even killed a few. You don't have to beat an animal but you need to establish the rules. I strongly suggest you either come up with a disciplinary method that works for you or invest in some professional help for your donk. I don;t care if it's a donk, a horse, cow, dog, whatever. You are the boss or else you lose in the end.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

In my limited experience working with donkeys, I have found that they tend to plant their feet and not move if you make them feel uncomfortable. Getting them to stop (at least in my experience) can be a lot easier than getting them to go  

I understand concerns for animal welfare and not wanting to abuse her or deal out unwarranted punishment. But you do need to set boundaries, or this is just an accident waiting to happen. There is a big difference between setting boundaries, and misplaced anger. You need to be clear and direct about what is NOT ok. 99% of the time, a WELL TIMED correction only takes once or twice before the animal gets it. Dancing around with them and trying not to offend them can take a lot longer, is confusing for the animal, and you are much more likely to get hurt. Personally, I have never known a horse or donkey that got offended because it tried to plow through me and I didn't let it. That is different from abusing an animal.

I have only worked with mini and standard sized donkeys but I will say that they are MUCH stronger and more headstrong than horses and ponies of equal size!


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Why am I going to get hurt because I believe in effective consequences rather than outward negative punishment? I'm sorry, but I am not going to beat or hit my donkey like as seen in the middle east to make her behave. If thats what you do, fine, but I'm not cruel.

Nor do I understand what offending an animal has to do with anything? Offending? To refuse to beat an animal to make it behave is not refusing to offend. I mean really? Offense is for people. Apparently I was misunderstood.

I asked for suggestions about how to make her stop. I got five:
stud chain - not an option
beating - Im not cruel or stupid
pop on the nose - BTDT
circling - works in some situations, but not the one I was referring to, although I'm not sure how circling translates to whoa, can someone clarify?
commanding to back up - I already stated this was a good suggestion and I will utilize it in the future - thank you!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

You ask a question and then get nasty when people respond in a way you don't like? Why ask the question in the first place?

A stud chain used correctly is not cruel, no one advocated beating anything, a stud chain is cruel but popping on the nose is not?? Circling/backing (working) makes the stopping (resting) the easier thing to do.

You are not the donkey's friend you are alpha if you don't understand that you _will_ get hurt.


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## whodunit (Mar 29, 2004)

I had a donkey who liked to runaway on me. I got smart after trying all the horse training on him that was useless and outsmarted him.

Tied a really long rope to a solid object. I lead him with a regular lead. He ran away and when he reached the end I yelled WHOA!. He quickly figured out he couldn't run away. I then only had to put the long rope on him but it wasn't tied. After awhile I didn't need it.

It was all fun and games to him. Once he figured out I could outsmart all his antics he would do anything I asked.

Donkeys heads arent turnable like horses or if you do manage to get it turned they can still run straight ahead. LOL

A stud chain will give the respect you need. A quick yank on it will help when she tries to run past you.

Your somehow have got to outsmart your jenny.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> Nor do I understand what offending an animal has to do with anything? Offending? To refuse to beat an animal to make it behave is not refusing to offend. I mean really? Offense is for people. Apparently I was misunderstood.
> 
> I asked for suggestions about how to make her stop. I got five:
> stud chain - not an option
> ...


Actually circling does help- it's one more tool in the box. A horse (donkey) decides to keep going, but if he finds that he has kept moving his feet but somehow it did not end up with his going where he intending, he will stop. Not exactly a whoa but useful in that's what you wanted and you will be able to use it to make it clear what the virtues of whoa are- he gets to stop and rest.

As for being "cruel", there is probably some misunderstanding going on. Do you think giving a sharp tap with a crop to get a response is cruel? I asked about the beating on donkeys in response to what you said, not because I think it's a good idea. But it is sometimes neccessary to get a large animals attention and that's what a sharp tap does. A sort of "hello- I'm talking to you."

And yes, animals can be offended- they do have a sense of justice about discipline. They know when they are deliberately pushing another being and when they are not. You may not believe it but it's true and I have used that in determining how I train my animals. I want a horse to know what is expected- then we can come to terms as to whether he will do it or not.

To ask why something works is reasonable. To flip someone off who responded to you is not. Consider that a "sharp tap."


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Apparently there was a misunderstanding here. My part, someone elses, maybe both. No where in this post did I say a stud chain was cruel. I said it's not an option. I just didn't supply a reason. The reason is, I don't have one and I've never used one. I dont want to make an irreversible mistake by utilizing a tool I dont know how to properly use.

As far as beating, maybe I misunderstood the motive, but what I took from a comment was criticism for stating that the way donkeys are treated in the middle east is cruel.

And this-->_Donkeys heads arent turnable like horses or if you do manage to get it turned they can still run straight ahead. 
_
is absolutely correct. I have experienced this. You can turn their head till their nose is on their shoulder and they will still go forward if they so choose.

_Tied a really long rope to a solid object. I lead him with a regular lead. He ran away and when he reached the end I yelled WHOA!. He quickly figured out he couldn't run away. I then only had to put the long rope on him but it wasn't tied. After awhile I didn't need it._

This is an excellent idea. The people mine came from, to lead break would put lead ropes on them and leave them on all the time. That way, the donkey steps on the lead rope and stops their self, thus teaching themself to stop when the rope is pulled on. This particular jenny seems to have missed that lesson, but the day she walked thru me in the barn. she didn't have a rope on her yet. 

On a positive note, we are over the scary flapping tarp hump and I have a bottle calf in with her, whom she sorely hates, but as such, she is no longer freaked out by something small leaping about in between her legs.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Well I can honestly say I have never seen a donkey lunged. A mule yes.
So I have no idea whether that is possible or not. 
I have been actually picked up and carried by some large horses when I refused to let go of the halter, so not everything is as smooth as my post might imply. But even a big horse eventually got tired of a 150 lb hanging off his head and stopped.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

I donât know anything about working with donkeys or mules but I suspect the intended communication between handler and equine must be very clear. When working with a horse I like to use a flag if they are unresponsive to my feel. Usually if a horse has all itâs instinct of self preservation intact, a flag or stick isnât needed. IMO opinion most horse problems are best prevented by not allowing the unwanted behavior to happen. If the handler uses a stick as punishment (after the act) it is often the handler that needs correcting and not the horse. Punishment isnât a very effective way to communicate with a horse and I suspect that is true of donkeys as well. I often find myself telling student handlers that it is âtheyâ who must be responsible for a horses actions. Horses are never wrong though it may seem like that at times. If the handler has good timing and feel for the horse, communications and success usually come easily to both. 

The method thatâs been described, using a long lead and allowing the donkey to reach the end which forces him to stop is a basic fundamental of horsemenship. One of the first lessons is that the rope has an end and the horse needs to understand that clearly. This is lesson is called âpullingâ in the beginning and becomes âdoublingâ as the training advances. Any horse or donkey can run forward with itâs head bent but I know of none that can accomplish it if the head is bent and the hindquarters are engaged sideways, or as some would say âdisengagedâ. 

All of this training is dependent on the handler having control of the horse with a halter and leadline. The OP has stated that this wasnât the case when her donkey ran through her. I would suggest that she not let that happen again by changing the circumstances when the animal is being turned out. Get a line on the animal and prevent the run away from happening, or as some would say, âfix it up so the horse can find successâ. 

As per stud chains etc., while I have nothing against them I operate my horses in a hackamore and believe that both the horses mouth and nose should never feel a strong pull which might harm their sensitivity in those areas. 

Hereâs a vid of a horsemen helping a spoiled horse that might give a comparison as to what people are referring to when they say âhitâ. This horse needed sensitizing to the flag but you can see how quick change comes when the handler has good timing and feel. 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTqDfb-QhNg[/ame]

It certainly is easy to be misunderstood when posting on forums. I know that I often am myself.


Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

where I want to said:


> Well I can honestly say I have never seen a donkey lunged. A mule yes.
> So I have no idea whether that is possible or not.
> I have been actually picked up and carried by some large horses when I refused to let go of the halter, so not everything is as smooth as my post might imply. But even a big horse eventually got tired of a 150 lb hanging off his head and stopped.


Yup, "grass skiing" BTDT but it was long ago I was an impatient kid.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

A stud chain is not rocket science. A good search of "proper stud chain usage" brings up these links: 

http://www.flyingchanges.com/htmls/2010/sep10_control.html

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxYqYotdZVU[/ame]


Jack- do you use a mechanical hackamore, bosal or sidepull? They all work to varying degrees on nose pressure.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

IrishPixie, when I speak of a hackamore I'm speaking of a bosal that is more than 1/2 inch diameter at the nose. If it is smaller it is called a bosal or "bosalita". It's confusing since I also refer to a rope halter as a hackamore but that is just my own terminology since the halter is smaller than 1/2 inch. A bosal actually works off of much more than the nose. The first signal is when the fiador knot leaves the chin, the second is a rubbing pressure on the cheeks (jowls) and lastly if needed pressure is applied to the nose. Hope that helps to understand what I'm speaking of.


Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I'm familiar with bosals (thick and rigid with no bend) but not proficient enough to use one with confidence. Since seeing an extremely skinned up young horse years ago I'd much rather use a sidepull.

The thinner the diameter the more severe, correct? So using a rope halter would be more severe because it works only on nose pressure than a bosal of any size?

Edited: I've used jumping hackamores (cavesson) as well and like them.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

Severity comes from many places but rarely the tack. I'm no expert on hackamores but will share some ideas I've come to believe true. The history of hackamore horsemenship is fascinating in itself, their use is probably dependent on the purpose of the rider. My own goal is to one day progress to the "two rein" with a couple of my horses. A bridlehorseman would start with a larger hackamore, 3/4 or 5/8 inch noseband and the move progressively to smaller diameters. I use Martin Black's definitions, a hackamore is 3/4, 5/8, 1/2 inch and the horse is developed in that order. Once moved to a smaller diameter, 3/8, 5/16 it is called a bosal and the smaller diameters 1/4 are called a bosalita. Bosals are used along with a bridle (2 rein) with the bosal reins being predominate in the beginning stages of two rein riding, and then the bridle reins becoming more dominate as the horse develops. Once a horse is ready, the bosal reins are removed and the horse is considered to be in the bridle. The smaller bosalita is worn without reins as a compliment to the horses training level, and this is called full up in the bridle. If you look at the pictures here,
http://www.doublediamondranch.info/ThebridleHorse.html
you will note that there are no reins attached to the bosalita and that there is a "get down" rope around the horses neck.This is a bridle horse. When leading a horse in a hackamore one should either have a "get down" rope or loop the hackamore reins in such a way that they become one. Bridle horsemen avoid pulling on a horses nose or mouth at all times and the tack they use is designed with this purpose in mind.

Let me say clearly that I'm no bridle horseman, but I find myself at the hackamore stage of that journey. When riding with a hackamore a steady pull must be avoided or the horse will quickly learn to lean on it, or ignore it. The hack/bosal signal is a light bump,bump,bump which is more of a suggestion to the horse. It is true that sometimes a hackamore horse will get some hair removed from it's jowls but that should never happen to the horses nose if the hackamore is made right. Look back a few days at my thread "Balance" and you will see me riding in a hackamore.

I'm not familiar with jumping cavessons though I do know that often cavessons are used to hold the horses mouth closed. Neither a hackamore or bosal can be used with that purpose.

Long post and off topic but maybe some will find it interesting or useful.


Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Another reason for a skinned-up nose with a rawhide bosal or hackamore is if they are of low quality. The little strips of rawhide used to braid the bosal/hackamore are called plaits. The fewer plaits, the coarser the braid and (generally) the cheaper the product. The coarser the braid, the rougher it is on the face. A junk bosal or hackamore is like a cheese grater on the nose bone. The bosal or hackamore should be smooth where it contacts the face.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Just for the record, donkeys do not lunge, they dont see the point in it. You might get a round or two, then they stop. 

I read a training info page from the Alberta donkey and mule society that said when training a donkey to do anything, you do it twice. Once to show, once to allow, then you do something else.

Also, concerning the talk of bosals, care must be taken for what kind of face gear you use on the bigger donkeys. their face skin is very thin and it is very easy to rub them raw. I learned this the hard way. I left their halters on for the 3 day trip home and the two bigger ones had raw spots where the hair was rubbed totally gone at the pressure spots.

The girl they came from even went so far as to say rather than using two parallel cinches as most do, they cross their cinches under the center of the belly to prevent the hair from rubbing off in the armpit area.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> Just for the record, donkeys do not lunge, they dont see the point in it. You might get a round or two, then they stop.
> .


But isn't stopping what you're looking for?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

levi1739 said:


> Severity comes from many places but rarely the tack. I'm no expert on hackamores but will share some ideas I've come to believe true. The history of hackamore horsemenship is fascinating in itself, their use is probably dependent on the purpose of the rider. My own goal is to one day progress to the "two rein" with a couple of my horses. A bridlehorseman would start with a larger hackamore, 3/4 or 5/8 inch noseband and the move progressively to smaller diameters. I use Martin Black's definitions, a hackamore is 3/4, 5/8, 1/2 inch and the horse is developed in that order. Once moved to a smaller diameter, 3/8, 5/16 it is called a bosal and the smaller diameters 1/4 are called a bosalita. Bosals are used along with a bridle (2 rein) with the bosal reins being predominate in the beginning stages of two rein riding, and then the bridle reins becoming more dominate as the horse develops. Once a horse is ready, the bosal reins are removed and the horse is considered to be in the bridle. The smaller bosalita is worn without reins as a compliment to the horses training level, and this is called full up in the bridle. If you look at the pictures here,
> http://www.doublediamondranch.info/ThebridleHorse.html
> you will note that there are no reins attached to the bosalita and that there is a "get down" rope around the horses neck.This is a bridle horse. When leading a horse in a hackamore one should either have a "get down" rope or loop the hackamore reins in such a way that they become one. Bridle horsemen avoid pulling on a horses nose or mouth at all times and the tack they use is designed with this purpose in mind.
> 
> ...


I always thought western bridle horses were just started in bosals to get the lightness needed to finish them in a bit? You ride in a bosal all the time even on "finished" horses? 

English tack _is_ confusing, the jumping hackamore also called a jumping cavesson even tho it isn't used to hold a horses mouth shut. A regular cavesson on a snaffle bridle isn't used to hold the mouth shut but a figure 8 or dropped noseband can be.

Here's a picture of a jumping hackamore/cavesson on a horse.










I beg to differ on the severity of tack, I agree in the wrong hands anything can be severe, but even someone with decent hands can skin a horse badly with a bosal or hurt a mouth with even a simple curb.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> Why am I going to get hurt because I believe in effective consequences rather than outward negative punishment? I'm sorry, but I am not going to beat or hit my donkey like as seen in the middle east to make her behave. If thats what you do, fine, but I'm not cruel.
> 
> Nor do I understand what offending an animal has to do with anything? Offending? To refuse to beat an animal to make it behave is not refusing to offend. I mean really? Offense is for people. Apparently I was misunderstood.
> 
> ...



You are going to get hurt because you are not establishing that YOU are the dominant side of the equation. I never advocated beating any animals, you appear to be making that leap.

As far as your methods and desire only to use "nice" discipline, I'd strongly suggest you look at how donks treat each other. All it takes is a cocked ear or tilt of the head for them to communicate with each other. If that's ignored they will bite, kick, etc the offender. You need to get you donks attention or eventually you'll get hurt, simple as that. How you go about it is your business, but killing them with kindness based on human emotion isn't always the best or even an effective method.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> Why am I going to get hurt because I believe in effective consequences rather than outward negative punishment? I'm sorry, but I am not going to beat or hit my donkey like as seen in the middle east to make her behave. If thats what you do, fine, but I'm not cruel.
> 
> Nor do I understand what offending an animal has to do with anything? Offending? To refuse to beat an animal to make it behave is not refusing to offend. I mean really? Offense is for people. Apparently I was misunderstood.
> 
> ...


Post #19 discusses horses being offended when they are unjustly punished. That's what I was referring to. 

I don't think I or anyone else ever suggested that you beat your donkey. Not sure where you came to that conclusion. 

If this is the kind of response that I get for trying to help you brainstorm solutions to a potentially dangerous problem, than I am done. Good luck.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Any nylon halter can chafe if it isn't doesn't fit correctly, if there is debris trapped under it, if they are restrained by it for an extended period of time, if they are rubbing their faces while wearing it or if it isn't adjusted correctly. Donkeys have an interestingly-shaped face. I have made nosebags for them and the proportions were entirely different from those horses.

The location of their girth bed in relation to their scapula I belive is also proportioned differently from most horses. I can certainly believe that they would require a different girthing system for optimal comfort, but some horses require this as well. The placement of the girth rings on the saddle can differ greatly from one saddle to the next, reflecting this difference in animals' build. There are also saddles with adjustable girthing positions to accomodate.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I thought the whole crossing of the cinches was very interesting. They were using mule saddles that came with two cinches, so they did fit properly. She said the first time they rode all day and she found the raw spots (years ago) she felt horrible. After that they started crossing the cinches and she said it solved the problem entirely.


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## whodunit (Mar 29, 2004)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> I thought the whole crossing of the cinches was very interesting. They were using mule saddles that came with two cinches, so they did fit properly. She said the first time they rode all day and she found the raw spots (years ago) she felt horrible. After that they started crossing the cinches and she said it solved the problem entirely.


I ride donkeys with a pack cinch and a crupper.

The pack cinch doesnt bunch up in back of their legs and the crupper keeps the saddle back where it belongs.

Crossing the cinches is an interesting idea.


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## KareninPA (Jan 7, 2010)

This is where thumbnails come in handy! If your 'beast' ignores you and starts to walk over top of you, give a little pinch to her chest and increase the pinch until she stops. I worked with lots of warmblood colts, and my thumbnails were a godsend. After a few times just a light touch with my finger to their chest got their attention. I feel it's a lot like a dominant horse nipping another to remind them of their place, and to respect their space. Once she respects your touch you can teach her to move away from any pressure along her body. When she gets in your space at all, touch her to warn her to back off and if she ignores, pinch. She'll soon pay attention to what your hand is saying!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

When starting yooungsters, I carry a short "poke" stick- 5 or 6 inches- sort of like the thumb nail thing. It's carried in my hand with the lead line. If the horse walks into me, I simply hold the stick and let the horse press into it. I don't jab with it or anything like that. Just makes invading my space uncomfortable without my taking any action. The horse has immediate relief by not leaning into me.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Pinching and poke sticks...very interesting. I did notice today, she bit the baby for invading HER space. It wasn't nasty or anything, more like a nip with just her front teeth.


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## mulemom (Feb 17, 2013)

Lonely you're right about donkeys being extremely intelligent. Meredith Hodges has a wonderful website-Lucky Three Ranch. She trains donkeys and mules and has a lot of good tips. Our 6" Jack is a sweetheart-except when you take him to a mare. We found out the hard way that he'd been allowed to charge out of the stall to the mare. I could get him almost to the stall door then he'd take off. I taught him to stop at the door by pushing his head into the door post using whoa and holding his head in line with the post. I was pushing his head sideways with the halter so I had some leverage. It took a few times but i finally got him to where I could get him out of the stall without getting run over. Course after we got into the aisle two grown men couldn't hold him. We made an iron nosepiece with rings top and bottom, ropes through rings on either side of the aisle. Once he found out he couldn't go forward he'd listen to commands. I saw the guy that had him thump on him pretty good-accomplished nothing-he'd just shake and keep doing what he was doing. Good luck with your giant girl-they are truly unique animals.


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## mulemom (Feb 17, 2013)

Lonely-if you ever get a chance I would love to see pictures of your girls. Did you know that mammoth donkeys are on the American Livestock Breed Conservancy 'threatened' list. They estimate that only 4000 are left in the US.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Yeah, I know they are rare. I had to drive halfway cross the country to get mine. I will start a thread with pics here soon, but it won't stop snowing! I'm waiting for a break in the weather. Three of the 4 qualify, or will qualify as mammoths. The girl that is the subject of this thread, her rear end is as tall as me. The baby is too young to register, but will be big enough. The other jenny is only a large standard. Her papers say 51 1/2 inches. The jack is young too, but He will surpass the mark, probably by a long shot. He's 9 months old and the same size as the large standard. I petted his dad. He was by far one of the biggest equine I've ever seen.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> Pinching and poke sticks...very interesting. I did notice today, she bit the baby for invading HER space. It wasn't nasty or anything, more like a nip with just her front teeth.


Exactly, although I'm sure that "nip" would be a major league pain experience for a human. You don't have to beat her, but you have to come up with a way to get it in her head that she isn't the boss.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Bret4207 said:


> Exactly, although I'm sure that "nip" would be a major league pain experience for a human. You don't have to beat her, but you have to come up with a way to get it in her head that she isn't the boss.


No kidding! Those are some scary looking teeth. I think I am going to try the pinching and poke stick thing. I'm gonna have DH make me a 4 or 6 inch rod on a loop I can put around my wrist. Short enough to not be in the way, yet be in my hand and ready at a moments notice.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

Just remember it's going to take her a minute to figure things out. I had a Percheron gelding that was a "crowder", He'd squish me every time I got into his tie stall to hitch or unhitch him. Old timer told me to use a broom handle a little wider than I was and stick it between his ribs and the wall when he started his crowding. First time I tried it he reacted a lot more vigorously than I'd anticipated and got a little panicky. I got squished any way but after the 2nd and 3rd time he got the message.


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