# moaning goat



## sgian (May 26, 2008)

I have a doe about 1-2 years old who is laying on her stomach and softly moans each time she breathes out. She won't drink water and she even refuses rabbit pellets (which all our goats love). We tried to stand her up and she moaned a lot (not very loud) but won't stand. However, she can move her legs and hold her head up. She is drooling a little, which just recently started to foam, and about an hour ago wet herself without getting up. We have not noticed any scours for the last couple days. She seemed ok earlier today, and left for the afternoon. When we came back she and her buckling were in the garage and she was laying down. This goat still hasn't blown her winter coat, and seems to feel better when we brush her. 

She doesn't have stiff or expanded sides like bloat. Her sides are soft, and in certain spots (like behind the ribs halfway down the side pushing forward) she does occasionally moan a little more when I push in. We suspect it might be something to do with worms, or a reaction to the worming a couple days ago, or maybe eating too many oak leaves or sampling cherries on the ground? She looks slightly dehydrated but not bad. When her skin is pinched and pulled, it goes back in place quickly but not as quickly as her buckling's.

For the past few days she has been in the yard with access to oak, cherry, and under the rabbit cages (she loves to clean up the rabbit pellets that the rabbits kick out). She had been in the pasture for just over a week, and before that she had wandered the yard with her buckling. We often let her wander the yard since it is closer to the house when we bottlefeed her buckling and they aren't very interested in escaping (they only escaped once when someone left the gate open).

-Temperature? 102.5
-Symptoms? above
-When was the last time you wormed? We wormed her two days ago with .1 lbs of Rumatel. She was one of the goats from my BIL's place who had pale eyelids and we were waiting for a fecal sample (discussed in a prior thread), but wound up using what we had when she scoured. She had solid pellets after treating her. She was the only goat whom we had to force to eat the wormer. She just stood around staring for perhaps an hour after the worming so I kept an eye on her, then I made her walk around and she behaved more normally. 
-Wormed with what and how much? rumatel 0.1 lbs 
-Is she pregnant? no
-When did she last have kids? about 8 weeks ago, one buckling
-Is her milk normal if she is in milk? she dried up quickly so we wound up bottlefeeding
-What age? about 1-2 years
-Breed? boer
-Do you vaccinate? no
-What do her lungs sound like when she is breathing? no sound
-Have they had a change of grain? not really. she goes back and forth between the yard and the pasture. In the pasture she has a mineral block, some browsing and lots of grass. In the yard there is more browsing, including access to under the rabbit cages, oak, and cherry.
-How long have you owned this goat? a little over a month

We are trying to get her to drink some water right now.


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

my wife just bottlefed her 8 oz of warm water. she looks very weak right now and her breathing seems slower than it was when I first started typing the thread, and her moaning is softer. She wants to hold her head up still but is having trouble so she was resting it on her water bucket. I moved a step over for her to rest her head on so that she wouldn't be drooling into the water bucket.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Wilted cherry leaves are posionous to goats. Rabbit pellets, since she is not used to grain could be the cause if she could have eaten enough off the ground, you aren't looking at bloat but acidosis. If she is not pooping than she is impacted with all the new things she ate in the yard. Also how did you force her to eat the wormer? Do you know if this wormer works in your area? Feed through wormers are pretty much for maintence here, then the boers are wormed with Cydectin when the famacha chart shows they are anemic. If you aren't going to learn to fecal or take some in to the vet, I would use something more reliable like cydectin. Especially when you are going to individually treat a doe for symptoms of worms like this.

I would fill her full of oil, a big doe could take a quart with baking soda in it to break the foam (acid). If you can get some banamine give it to her to stop the pain and to calm the gut. You will have to jump start her rumen again...the oil should really give her diarrhea which is a good thing. B vitamins will help the rumen and offering her new hay. Subq lactated ringers for the dehydration since you can't get her to drink, and don't go syringing water down her throat. Lactated ringers set ups should be in everyone goat med chest, you can get them from your vet and from hoeggers and other farm catalogs....make a really large lump subq below the shoulder, about the size of your hand, when it is absorbed most of the way, make another one under the opposite shoulder. The tubing to get the oil in with the baking soda, the b vitamins, the banamine and the subq fluids...should do it if she isn't too far gone.

If you do not know how to tube, get help, call a vet or a friend who knows how to tube and has the meds you need. Vicki


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

no advice but wanted to let you know I hope things improved and that your doe made it through the night. Please update when you can.

It sounds like you were trying so very hard to get a fecal and treat her right. Your answers as to current status are very thorough! Big hugs.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Vicki said all I was thinking and more. Hope your news is better this morning.


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

She was dead this morning. Is there anything specific to look for to determine cause of death? Like colors of organs, or would I need any magnification to see the worms, or if it is acidosis then is there anything that will tell without requiring a pH tester? We can't eat her because of the recent worming, but I want to see if I can find out more definitely what caused this. Also what organs should I be looking for internal CL abscesses in?

She was used to rabbit pellets, since she has often had access to the rabbit areas other than the week she was in the pasture and she had gotten into the can we keep the rabbit feed several times without any ill effects. Only new thing I can think of was that the cherry tree started dropping cherries recently. I guess I'll be looking for cherry pits too.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Unless very adept at butchering an anatomy anything more than a gross necropsy......Look at the lungs, do they look normal, are they full of blood. Stomachs, how hard is the stuff in her rumen? Full of pits and undigested food? Is it cud smelling, like old grass in a plastic bag, or rotting, are there holes through it from the acid eating it? Are the areas between the chambers filled/packed? Are any of the 4 chambers empty...yes you can use fecal material if you necropsy quickly from her intestine to run a fecal...it is the only time you can see adult worms, at necrospy. You can also see if she has a healthy liver. Vicki


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## Sweet Goats (Nov 30, 2005)

I am sorry about your loss.


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

****WARNING, 2 PICS OF GUTS AT BOTTOM OF POST****

I found some things that didn't look right, and I was hoping that someone more experienced in this wouldn't mind looking at the pics to see if they don't look right. The heart looked like a portion had burst, but when I went to get the camera the dog snuck over and ate the heart. It seems odd that he only ate the heart and then left.

-There was very little blood, apparently it had mostly coagulated. 
-The lungs were pink and full of a white foam that bubbled out when pressed. There was a large blister on one of the lungs, which I took a picture of.
-The stomachs were all soft, and almost everything looked digested. There was one thing in the big stomach that looked kind of like a cherry pit, but it was soft and crushed easily when pressed with the flat of the knife.
-There was no fluid in the cavity.
-the worst smell was from opening the stomach cavity, although I didn't pierce any of the stomachs or intestines when cutting it open. I assume the smell was from laying dead all night before we found her. The contents of the stomachs didn't seem very strong after that, but drinking unfiltered well water from a plastic cup reminds me so much of the smell that I can't drink from plastic cups right now.
-I didn't notice any holes in the organs except the heart.
-There was a large white sack full of yellow fluid on the liver, along with a bunch of small solid white growths. The liver had a lot of grey in it, especially under the large sack and inside. The liver is a lot lighter and less uniform in color than goat liver pics I saw on the internet, and I didn't see a sack like my goat's in my search.









Here are the lungs. The large clear blister is below my thumb.


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## deafgoatlady (Sep 5, 2007)

WOW. I have no idea what I am looking for. LOL. I hope someone will tell u asap.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Very brave of you, and I hope Vicki or someone gives you more info.

The high school biology class did a necropsy on one of my calves once. We found out it had been stepped on. 

You wouldn't believe the outraged parents.  Geez. 

Looked to me like a wonderful learning experience!

I'm waiting with interest more knowledgeable eyes on your goat.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Sgian, I just want to say I am so sorry you are having so many problems with your goats  It is really sad about this one now and I still have my fingers crossed for Stinker. I wish I could help...All I can do is give you moral support and prayers.


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## Shazza (Nov 20, 2004)

Before she died did her breathe smell like pear/apple a sweet smell?? I am thinking Acetonaemia.... I had a goat die from it, newly kidded and just wouldnt eat, drink very miserable.


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

I didn't notice a sweet smell. Since my BIL got her at a sales auction 2-3 months ago, I don't know what her nutrition was like before then. She has had 1-2 acres of overgrown grass and brush to herself and her buckling for most of the time I've had her (we don't mow much because of strong allergies except right around the house) along with access to rabbit pellets, so I don't think it was a recent nutritional deficiency. However, she did have a very fine crimped undercoat that we wanted to test for cashmere, so she probably did have poor nutrition over the winter before we got her.

Could the liver have changed color that much in just a couple of days? I'm wondering if perhaps she had a problem with the wormer, but that still wouldn't explain the blister on her lung.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I was sure hoping Vicki or someone with experience at looking at goat innards would comment on the pics.

Please.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

your doe most likely had internal abscess from cl on the liver (white solid growth) the sack with yellow fluids is the gal bladder and if the liver would have functioning, fluid should have been green. fluid around the heart was from liver failure.

please do yourself a favor, and wear gloves the next time you do necropsy on a dead animal 

sorry for your loss


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## deafgoatlady (Sep 5, 2007)

Susaane, He did wear gloves. I see his hand on the pictures. He was wearing the gloves.


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

If it was CL, then that would explain some things. She was part of a lot of 3 pregnant does that my BIL and relatives bought at the sale barn. They each gave birth to one kid, for a total of 6. Only 2 of the 6 are still alive (which I have since bought, including 8 week old George). The other survivor is a 3 year old doe who dried up quickly and her buckling died. We checked for scars, and she has some on the shoulder where CL would be, including a 1.5"-2" vertical slit. I'm suspecting the whole lot was contaminated, and the sellers knew it, and bred the does to get more money out of them.

Liver damage would explain the anemia, and since the heart rupture looked like something burst out it could have even been a burst abscess. Worming and possibly cherry pits could have been the final straw. I guess the only unexplained part is the blister on the lungs, since it doesn't look like CL.

Can CL be passed to a fetus or through milk?


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

So do you think Stinker has CL too?


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

It sure seems like it. I would like to wait until test results come back, but it has been almost a month now that I've been waiting. We need to call the vet again even though they don't like us calling them. This is starting to look worse and worse. Two goats with current abscesses, one goat with scars from abscesses, and a dead goat with abscesses internally.

It should be illegal to knowingly sell goats with CL.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

sgian said:


> Can CL be passed to a fetus or through milk?


i think there is a small percentage of infection in uteri but mostly it is transmitted through ruptured abscess. problem is that animals with external abscess most likely have internal ones too and shed the bacteria in milk,coughing, urine and feces.

i have no idea what the blister on the lung tissue is, but i will see if i can find something.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

sgian said:


> It should be illegal to knowingly sell goats with CL.


i am really sorry you have all this trouble and i agree, cl should be a reportable disease.
the problem with most meat goat breeder is, that they really don't care as the life span from most of the animals does not need to be long.


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## sgian (May 26, 2008)

The tests came back today. This goat had a weak positive blood test for CL, so combined with the way the liver looked she probably did have CL. The other goat with the CL lancing scar I found yesterday also came back with a weak positive. We butchered that one today and found an abscess in the brain and under an armpit. Stinker was also positive, so tonight is probably his last night. The rest of the goats came back negative, but one of the goats with a negative test result has a newly formed abscess in a CL location so we will wait awhile keeping her isolated and then see what is in the abscess when it is bigger.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

oh no..not good news. I'm so sorry.  I feel real bad about Stinker


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

I am sorry you lost your girl. But I wanted to say I am very proud of you for doing the necropsy. I believe this is an invaluable tool and you can only really learn by doing this every chance you get. I know it isn't for everyone but you will never forget the things you see and learn and the more times you look, the more easily identifiable weird things will be to you.

I did a very basic exploratory necropsy this year and should have done another but didn't have time before the carcass was too far gone. My vet did a third for me and I wish I could have been there with her when she did it as I would have learned much more. I don't know ruminant anatomy like I should, but I am learning and my husband has butchered plenty of wild sheep, goats, moose, elk, and deer and that helps somewhat to get the basics on what organs should be where.

One other thing, you wouldn't have seen much blood in the gut cavity unless an organ was ruptured or cut open. I was amazed at how little blood we encountered when we opened up a little doeling we lost to impaction a couple weeks back. I did learn a lot but wish I could have learned more. I took photos for later use too and I'm glad I did it, even if I was crying my eyes out the whole time. I had been nursing her for a few days and she died on my chest as I cuddled her in my arms. I insisted we go straight out and do the necropsy right away before she was stiff, even if it was 2330 and we had to get up at 0500 to milk and go to work the next day. I didn't want to lose an opportunity to learn and improve and prevent future losses so within 20 minutes of death we had her open.

Hopefully these will be few and far between but to me that's all the more reason to seize the chance.


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