# Dexters are tough.



## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

My oldest cow had a surprise for me this morning. A perfectly healthy dried off nursing heifer calf. I thought she had been a few weeks away from delivery so she delivered outdoors during the night instead of in the barn.

Got lucky on this one. Temperatures and wind chill have moderated the last few days but still its Manitoba in December. It is showing -15C outside with a slight breeze.

Mom and baby look happy and healthy. She had a huge for a Dexter bull calf last January but I had them indoors for that delivery. She made that calf huge while gestating another beautiful calf and keeping herself in good condition as well.

I think this is her sixth calf.


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

you know what they say it didn't happen if there's no picture.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

myheaven said:


> you know what they say it didn't happen if there's no picture.


 
I will see what I can do.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Mom baby and last Januaries bull calf


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Udders are hardly swollen up at all.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

This is the bull calf from about two and a half years ago. She is having a calf at shorter than one year intervals.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Dad, He is almost nine years old. He only throws black calves. He is only getting mellower with age. He is still dominant over his two and a half year old son. The two and a half year old bull has an appointment with the freezer shortly. We keep our calves intact and always have good beef. Also never have problems with aggression towards humans. Although they know where the tips of their horns are in the occasional internal tiff or if a dog sneaks across the pasture. I bought him as a dehorned two year old.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Already taking baby on a tour of the facilities. I think I will take them in for the next few nights. And that's probably the reason she is leading the calf away from me and giving me a look over her shoulder. She hates being in the barn.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

I just put mom and baby in the barn. Mom is the alpha cow and gets real antsy when separated from the herd. She gave me a dirty look. But better safe than sorry. Also better if baby is not competing with older brother for milk. This cow almost milked herself to death in her first three lactations. She was letting all three of her first calves nurse.


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

postroad said:


> She was letting all three of her first calves nurse.


That's one reason why you wean calves. :facepalm:

If she had three other "calves" nursing her, the cow had little, if any, colostrum for her new calf. 

How do you determine who the sire of your calves is?


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

G. Seddon said:


> That's one reason why you wean calves. :facepalm:
> 
> If she had three other "calves" nursing her, the cow had little, if any, colostrum for her new calf.
> 
> How do you determine who the sire of your calves is?


 
Oh I am very primitive. No castrating, no weaning, no worming, no antibiotics, no dehorning, no grain, no separation of the bulls. 

In this case some years back she stopped nursing three generations. The bulls get eaten by us before they become to much of a problem for the old bull. Excess heifers get sold for hay money.

Something's working for me I eat lots of beef at very little cost and have had zero abortions or dwarfs.

All four cows I am breeding have a different heritage so not to concerned about some genetic mingling.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Sorry, that's not primitive, it's irresponsible. 

Cattle are domesticated animals and require some management. Especially Dexters with their inherent genetic defects, you should know "who begat who" if you are selling breeding stock.

Leaving horned "up and coming" bulls in with your dehorned senior bull is a very ugly scene just waiting to happen. Very unfair to the old guy.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

MO_cows said:


> Sorry, that's not primitive, it's irresponsible.
> 
> Cattle are domesticated animals and require some management. Especially Dexters with their inherent genetic defects, you should know "who begat who" if you are selling breeding stock.
> 
> Leaving horned "up and coming" bulls in with your dehorned senior bull is a very ugly scene just waiting to happen. Very unfair to the old guy.


That up and coming bull has a very short future ahead of him. He gets to come in for the winter. Just like every one of his male siblings and half siblings before and after him he will end up in our freezer early in the new year.

So I never sell any male offspring. We are a large family and can eat two or three animals a year. In fact some years I have had to slaughter young heifers for meat also.

That leaves the odd heifer for sale. I have not sold them as papered purebred Dexter cattle but simply for the per pound market price of feeder cattle. In fact the only verifiable purebred is the old bull anyway.

Now if they end up on another farm with a different bull and that person is eating the offspring, well that's "Homesteading" 

I do not have any short type Dexter cattle because I prefer the larger type
over the "pet" type.

Have never had an abortion or a bulldog in all these years. Never had an aggressive bull, calf, heifer. cow not ever. All cows are super maternal raise fast growing calves on pasture, hay and a mineral salt block.

The meat is great. A few years back the commercial herds around here could hardly be needled enough to keep their feet from rotting off. Not me. Not even once. They do not get foot rot, pink eye, mastitis, nothing. 

They do get a few weeks in fall where they get to glut themselves on apple pomace from when I do pressing for folks. I think that may be acting as a natural wormer.

I am not saying that everyone should follow my method and I would sure make adjustments if it becomes necessary.

I am not sure if would even work with other breeds? I have seen four year old dairy bulls that would rather kill me as look at me.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

postroad said:


> That up and coming bull has a very short future ahead of him. He gets to come in for the winter. Just like every one of his male siblings and half siblings before and after him he will end up in our freezer early in the new year.
> 
> So I never sell any male offspring. We are a large family and can eat two or three animals a year. In fact some years I have had to slaughter young heifers for meat also.
> 
> ...


Your Sig says it all.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

M5farm said:


> Your Sig says it all.



Ouch. In my defence, I have lots to eat. Give away lots of food also. Oldest three of my seven boys are over six feet tall already. Never wormed them either. They are giving this old "bull" a little trouble but not to bad. Did I mention that Dexters are tough?

How would you rate the growth rate on the just under 11 month old bull calf his moma and new sibling. Anybody look underfed or sickly?







calf


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

I can not give you an honest answer on the bcs of a Dexter. No one said you were under feeding them and your sons genetics has more to do with there size than eating miniature cattle. The responsibility of proper herd management is what's in question. Being that the new calf did not receive any colostrum because his 3 older brothers/ father /uncle sucked it all is what was being challenged. The calf has an up hill battle. When they start going down hill and they will you will rethink not managing the herd properly. In the wild animals will wean their offspring these are domesticated and require proper husbandry.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

M5farm said:


> I can not give you an honest answer on the bcs of a Dexter. No one said you were under feeding them and your sons genetics has more to do with there size than eating miniature cattle. The responsibility of proper herd management is what's in question. Being that the new calf did not receive any colostrum because his 3 older brothers/ father /uncle sucked it all is what was being challenged. The calf has an up hill battle. When they start going down hill and they will you will rethink not managing the herd properly. In the wild animals will wean their offspring these are domesticated and require proper husbandry.



This is her sixth or seventh calf. I am going to get it for not being completely sure. Moma and baby are in the barn now and will be for the next few days. I usually do put expectant moms in the barn before they calve and keep them separated from the herd for a few days. She just took me by surprise. Usually she has some discharge for a while before she calves and vulva gets swollen and tendons get soft. I had been watching her but her signs had indicated that she had some time left. Just checked on the pair and everything looks hunky dory? I have had this animal since 2008. at what point will things be going downhill. Some of the dairy guys have a tough time getting four lactations before they have to ship.

Now again I am not recommending that everyone follow my example but how is it possible that this animal is raising beautiful calves, breeding back quickly, gestating beautiful calves again and again if my husbandry is lacking? And its not just this cow. There are three more that produce a beautiful calf on a yearly or less basis. Is anyone indicating that greater efficiencies are available for this small herd. That bull calf is probably almost two thirds his mothers weight at less than 11 months.







?


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

What nature is capable of, and what is best for the animal, are not always the same thing. 

Heifers start cycling a lot younger than they should be bred. Then you have best case scenario a stunted heifer who never reaches her potential. Worst case, a dead heifer and a dead calf, she couldn't deliver it. Leave your herd all running together all the time, sooner or later it happens. 

I happen to think that young bulls benefit from the "herd discipline" of a mature bull. Helps them learn their place and not be so "cocky". But a 2 year old isn't a youngster any more! It's just a matter of time before you have a full-on bullfight on your hands. You come out one morning and your old bull is dead or injured, how you gonna feel about that? You have put him at a huge disadvantage by letting the young bulls keep their horns and still keeping them together. Even if he hasn't been injured (yet), he has been harassed and stressed by trying to keep order. In nature, he would run the young bulls off. But you have them fenced in together so that stress is constantly there for him. 

You have some decent cattle and in spite of lazy management they have performed well for you. But sooner or later your luck runs out and it's the animal who suffers.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

MO_cows said:


> What nature is capable of, and what is best for the animal, are not always the same thing.
> 
> Heifers start cycling a lot younger than they should be bred. Then you have best case scenario a stunted heifer who never reaches her potential. Worst case, a dead heifer and a dead calf, she couldn't deliver it. Leave your herd all running together all the time, sooner or later it happens.
> 
> ...


I imagine that me slaughtering the bulls at between the ages of two and two and a half years old performs the function of running the young bulls off? I still think the apple pomace plus other things like pumpkins is acting as a wormer.

I researched the breed before I got into them. Made sure not to get anything that looked like a short leg version. Although a long leg can carry that gene as well. I have never had any short leg calves born in eight years.

I would medicate them if the need arose. So far so good. At some point the girls and bull will get to old and I will have to replace. Dexters are considered a long lived breed and I have grown attached to the old cows and especially the bull. Make sure I stay detached emotionally from the younger stock but they sure are cute when they are young.

Mom and baby doing good in the barn today. Baby nursing, had a good BM and bouncing around happily. She is sure big for a heifer calf. Mom wants out pretty bad though.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

MO_cows said:


> What nature is capable of, and what is best for the animal, are not always the same thing.
> 
> Heifers start cycling a lot younger than they should be bred. Then you have best case scenario a stunted heifer who never reaches her potential. Worst case, a dead heifer and a dead calf, she couldn't deliver it. Leave your herd all running together all the time, sooner or later it happens.
> 
> ...


 
I have not noticed the constant harassment you are describing. In fact that two year old bull still defers to his mama.

Most of the head butting is between the calves both male and female. In fact there is more drama between the cows than the bulls. 

Of coarse my herd rarely numbers more than a dozen animals so that probably helps. They are not tightly confined at all with multiple off areas to move to. The gate into the pasture is still open if any animal wants to go for a walk about.

For the most part they exhibit a fairly calm family dynamic.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

In every photo of your cow where her hind legs are visible, she has them placed forward of a normal standing position. Respectfully suggest you look into that. She might be stiff in the joints, her hooves might be too long in the toe, something. In post 19 it was very noticeable, that made me go back and look at the others again. And I don't see one photo where her hind legs are placed straight under her. Even when she took the calf on walkabout she stopped with both hind legs a little forward. An altered stance would indicate she has pain when she stands "square".


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

postroad said:


> I have not noticed the constant harassment you are describing. In fact that two year old bull still defers to his mama.
> 
> Most of the head butting is between the calves both male and female. In fact there is more drama between the cows than the bulls.
> 
> ...


I can most likely assure you the old bull did not the sire of the new calf. 
Jr. Was getting free food and free you know what. While that's an acceptable practice in some programs it is not a best practice in keeping replacements. Eventuality your going to keep a heifer or 2 and the inbreeding will cause the herd to regress.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

She does show less than ideal conformation. Noticed this when I first bought her as a six month old calf. A little long in the hooves also. Cow hocked and long toed. Not the nicest udder attachments and a funny neck to boot. But for 150 dollars I figured "why not" Also that unfortunate umbilical dohicky she passes on to her offspring. Good grief I just realised she's some ugly cow!! So what! Beef tastes good from ugly cows also. Contemplated cutting the hooves back some but they never got out of hand compared to some skies I had seen on other Dexters. They have a hard gravel road they travel back and forth down the equipment yard/pasture. This seems to help a fair bit so I keep the pasture open till the snow gets deep. They walk back and forth nibbling on the dry grass in the back and around the equipment that was deemed not good enough in the summer months. Doesn't matter if the feeder is full they take a walk at least once a day.

Anyway she does not give any indication that she has any discomfort and will outrun everybody including the calves when I holler with a wheelbarrow full of apple pomace or cull veggies. No creaking or cracking noises one sometimes hears in old cows sometimes either.

I did select for good hooves when bull shopping and it seems to have passed to his offspring but he is a little cow hocked also and has been so from when I got him. But for 600 bucks??? He is slower now then at two years old but will still join in those mad dashes that calves engage in on summer evenings if the mood is right. No limping no noises only has a handful to breed every year and is good with the cows and calves.

I am not sure how many years I can keep the old guy and girls but nice calves keep appearing every year so I leave it for another year.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

postroad said:


> Ouch. In my defence, I have lots to eat. Give away lots of food also. Oldest three of my seven boys are over six feet tall already. Never wormed them either. They are giving this old "bull" a little trouble but not to bad. Did I mention that Dexters are tough?
> 
> How would you rate the growth rate on the just under 11 month old bull calf his moma and new sibling. Anybody look underfed or sickly?


Since you asked, yes 2 yr bull has a "hunger hollow" and ribs showing. Post #6, 2nd photo. Hope you like lean beef.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

He does look lean in that photo. It was early in the morning and belly would have been empty but. hmmm..

He looks different in this shot though. It was taken moments apart though. Wonder what some other breeds would have looked like in the same light?


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

M5farm said:


> I can most likely assure you the old bull did not the sire of the new calf.
> Jr. Was getting free food and free you know what. While that's an acceptable practice in some programs it is not a best practice in keeping replacements. Eventuality your going to keep a heifer or 2 and the inbreeding will cause the herd to regress.


\

I haven't seen him mounting any cows but what he does when me and his old man aren't looking??

The old guy has only a handful to service and he follows them around like a puppy the whole time they are receptive. Last summer my sister was visiting and she remarked "He's in love now but what about next week"

How long does a bull remain fertile anyway?

I think that when replacement heifers are going to be kept Ill replace the bull and arrange for the boys to hit freezer camp. There have been a few years where I have got three heifer calves and only one bull calf. Maybe the next time that happens. But I kinda like that old bull. Me and him have hit middle age together.


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## eon69nc (Apr 16, 2014)

And your animals do not look bad, we can not all have the show animals. You feed well and sounds like you enjoy them. I would think that is all that really matters.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

eon69nc said:


> And your animals do not look bad, we can not all have the show animals. You feed well and sounds like you enjoy them. I would think that is all that really matters.


 Thanks for that! I do enjoy having them. This last calf has been prodded and poked the last few days. All this "uphill battle" and whatnot has gotten me all paranoid she's going to up and die on me. She seems pretty round in the belly for something about to expire. She had a nice yellow milk poop this morning so something's going in. Moms getting a little exasperated with me climbing into the pen to check out the baby. 

I am somewhat visually impaired and sometimes I miss what others can see. I guess tomorrow that two year old bull going to get felt up to see if he's dying of starvation.


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## sv.maple (Feb 16, 2014)

Wow another post about one thing goes off subject and bashing of the person starts!! Your cow and calf look good glad everyones healthy.


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## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

You certainly are to be commended for the primitive/natural way you raise your animals.  It takes a certain type of person to think outside of the box like that, and since it works so well, I'm sure they're benefiting from reduced human attention in those regards.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Sumatra said:


> You certainly are to be commended for the primitive/natural way you raise your animals.  It takes a certain type of person to think outside of the box like that, and since it works so well, I'm sure they're benefiting from reduced human attention in those regards.


 Thanks but they may have a point. Some breeds would not work under my conditions. I deliberately chose Dexters for this purpose. Also may have got lucky on the extreme mellow temperament of the bull and his offspring. Although I leave things fairly natural the calves are imprinted with human contact from birth. The first few days of their lives while in the barn there is visitation from the kids to see the new baby. The novelty wears off fairly quickly though. And of course I come to feed water the cow three four times a day.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Calf is doing great! Bouncing around kicking legs in the air. Cows udder still not looking extended but I think her little glutton is taking it all. Baby is already mouthing hay. Checked calf's belly and it was round full. Also caught a picture of her taking a good long pee.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Sumatra said:


> You certainly are to be commended for the primitive/natural way you raise your animals.  It takes a certain type of person to think outside of the box like that, and since it works so well, I'm sure they're benefiting from reduced human attention in those regards.


You might see it as bashing, but for newbies reading these threads, they shouldn't be led to believe that all you have to do is buy some bargain basement cattle, turn them out with zero management, zero health protocols, and everyone just lives happily ever after.

Postroad has dodged a lot of bullets, which he has acknowledged. Many times animals suffer and/or die due to the owner's ignorance and I won't contribute to that.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

MO_cows said:


> You might see it as bashing, but for newbies reading these threads, they shouldn't be led to believe that all you have to do is buy some bargain basement cattle, turn them out with zero management, zero health protocols, and everyone just lives happily ever after.
> 
> Postroad has dodged a lot of bullets, which he has acknowledged. Many times animals suffer and/or die due to the owner's ignorance and I won't contribute to that.


 
Reminds of BIL a few years back. They bought a Jersey cow for milking. High production animal, got best hay supplements etc. They got lots of milk and were very happy with it. Second lactation BIL was milking the animal. Darn thing died right there on its feet. BIL said he had to move fast as it was falling on him.
Apparently they being newbies had killed this high production animal with kindness. Forget the details but something about blood calcium levels and rich alfalfa hay?


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Also a few years back a local lady rented my bull for her Dexter herd. He stayed there the better part of two months. She brings him back and the bugger is obese. What have you been feeding him I asked. Well he gets rolled grain morning and evening she says.

Long story short, the next year she comes to tell me there is something wrong with my bull. She had a low percentage of her cows get pregnant. I don't know I said. I have four out of four.

Eventually she slaughtered her cows. I know the abattoir operator. He did my beef also. He indicated that he had trimmed in excess of 100 pounds of fat from one cow and thrown it into the bin. She had still gotten less than lean cuts even after this trimming.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Good point Postroad. You can kill with kindness just as well as neglect. But the real killer, the root cause, was the ignorance.


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## WadeFisher (Sep 26, 2013)

Why does being 'domesticated' equate to being weak and high maintenance?
I am sure if selection was put on 'tough' you would find a lot more herds could be run closer to the environment of Postroad.
My herd is always looked at to be tough and low maintenance. Not that this should equate to neglect. But only the individual herdsman knows what his stock needs.
This goes for any livestock, not just cattle.
You can tell by the photos that his animals are not being neglected. If he can raise good beef with minimal input then 'good for him'


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

My comments never questioned the health of his herd. I questioned the protocol of not weaning calves and having a 2 yr old bull son with the herd that is going to breed every thing before the old bull gets to it. In the cattle business most try to use a bull that will complement the cow and I think his intentions were there to begin with but not castrating a cross bred bull is asking for trouble. Secondly not allowing a cow to recover and produce the essential colostrum before she calves is not helping the cow. Postroad obviously cares about the welfare of his animals. If this forum only wants feel good comments and no honest discussions I'm in the wrong place. I live in the real world and expect honesty and I give honest assessment. The op can do whatever with my comments it really doesn't matter. I would rather be given a suggestion and something to think about than feelgoodism.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

I am wondering exactly how this older cow is maintaining the condition to breed back within six weeks, gestation after gestation?. The calf is thriving as have all previous offspring. What exactly is this calf ingesting from that little udder? She has nice BMs and is peeing regularly.This heifer calf is a solid weight. Wish I had some kind of scale. Last years calf was even bigger. This cow must have a wide pelvis! A few years back I was forking hay into the feeder. The cattle all crowded around. I heard a wet plop. I turned around and she was in the process of turning around to lick the calf dry. Fifteen minutes later that calf was nursing and the cow was munching hay. 

Even the other cows usually space their calves a year or more apart. They have the sense to have their calves closer to spring. Probably going to get flamed for this but what the heck. Does anyone else have the phenomenon of cows allowing the younger calves of their herd mates to suckle?

This often happens in spring when two or more cows have calves within a few weeks of each other. Often when on pasture it is not uncommon for there to be two calves on one cow. Later the other cow will return the favour. It seems to be the calves go nurse on whoever is closest.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

postroad said:


> I am wondering exactly how this older cow is maintaining the condition to breed back within six weeks, gestation after gestation?. The calf is thriving as have all previous offspring. This heifer calf is a solid weight. Wish I had some kind of scale. Last years calf was even bigger. This cow must have a wide pelvis! A few years back I was forking hay into the feeder. The cattle all crowded around. I heard a wet plop. I turned around and she was in the process of turning around to lick the calf dry. Fifteen minutes later that calf was nursing and the cow was munching hay.
> 
> Even the other cows usually space their calves a year or more apart.


She is a fertile myrtle, I for one would like all my cows to breed back on the first cycle. Which goes back to my original intent if you want a heifer or two out of her and the only way to make sure it is off the desired bull is to separate or castrate her bull calves. Heifer calves are usually smaller than bulls which is why last year's calf was bigger.

After I commented you edited and added the have the sense to calve closer to spring. They are not refusing to rebreed until a specific time their system is not receptive because of some circumstance like condition ,mineral deficiencies etc. The will cycle they just don't catch until something is corrected.


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## eon69nc (Apr 16, 2014)

While I agree, with the comments on here regarding animal welfare and preventive treatments. I too have seen first hand ignorance in action from those who "want a cow" and do not realize even the most basic needs and I do not contribute to those posts. But for those who have established herds and understanding I will chime in. And M5Farm I agree with you on 2yr in there and I separate mine at weaning time.


I think we all need to pause when replying and reread what we write. Suggestions and comments are awesome and can really help everyone. My issues is that we can not judge off a picture when we are not standing right in front of the animal. Which is the same thing as those requesting help on these forum. I will rarely input any comment as I am not a vet and have no business injecting.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

M5farm said:


> She is a fertile myrtle, I for one would like all my cows to breed back on the first cycle. Which goes back to my original intent if you want a heifer or two out of her and the only way to make sure it is off the desired bull is to separate or castrate her bull calves. Heifer calves are usually smaller than bulls which is why last year's calf was bigger.
> 
> After I commented you edited and added the have the sense to calve closer to spring. They are not refusing to rebreed until a specific time their system is not receptive because of some circumstance like condition ,mineral deficiencies etc. The will cycle they just don't catch until something is corrected.


The others do have a calf every year just not every ten to eleven months.

I have already mentioned the conformation glitches on this cow. She also has a few white hairs on her face. Another no no for Dexter conformation.

I have often considered keeping back her heifers and starting a breeding herd from her line. Her conformation problems and the fact that I like the old bull have kept me from doing so.

The calves she produces seem to have a better topline than she does but occasionally a few white hairs appear. I am not sure why this is such a disaster in Dexter conformation but it probably indicates some other bloodline somewhere in her history.

She has a long nose that also appears on all her female offspring. Some folks are a little off put by that also. Did I mention the torpedo butt? My uncle said his ugliest cow also gave him the healthiest calves.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

I would do things a bit different, but I don't think this is the biggest husbandry problem around.

It is assumed that the most common methods are good husbandry, apparently because so many people use them.

If you were to use the most popular methods, you would put your calves through the stress of abrupt weaning, then put them through the stress of loading them up and hauling to the salebarn, where they will be stressed and comingled to pick up disease. Then they will be put through the stress of being hauled again hundreds of miles to a feedlot. Then they will be stressed with a new place, new pecking order, new feed, new watering system, running them through processing, etc. Due to the stress they may get 'shipping fever' pneumonia and require treatment.

In addition, they will be fed a high grain diet for which ruminants are not designed, which causes too much acid in the rumen, resulting in acidosis, ulceration, and liver abscesses. Of course, antibiotics will be added to the feed to reduce the incidence. In some surveys, up to 40% have liver abscesses. With proper antibiotic use, the rate should be around 15%, which apparently is considered good husbandry.

http://feedlotmagazine.com/archive/archive/issues/200011/new_v8n6pg89article.html


In addition, so-called good husbandry includes putting cattle under significant heat stress. Give them all the risk factors - breed them to be black, fatten them up, and put them in a feedlot of dirt and concrete with no shade in 100 degree temps.

My brother helped build and operate a feedlot for a few years, and as he said, to be a real cattleman, you have to have a dead pile.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

Dj buy your assessment and the way you feel the world would starve to death. Some of us take pride in raising an animal to feed others. Your way of thinking puts a higher value of life on feed animals than humans. I don't have the time to list all of the effects that wouldhappen if farmers did it the way you want. At the end of the day they are animals and we humans are at the top of the food chain.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Large scale animal husbandry is necessary. Could welfare improvements be made? Likely, but are you going to pay for them?

I don't approve of the industrial slaughterhouse and so I raise my own. Not everyone can. I remove myself from markets I don't like, I don't try and vilify them because I understand they are necessary.

This reinforces my idea of wanting good sturdy dexters when we take the leap into raising our own cows. This year have been researching and adding rabbits... cows are next year.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

DJ you exaggerate. The literature is full of articles about reducing stress at weaning. Fence line weaning, nose blab weaning, all kinds of different strategies studied to find the best practices. Most people "pre condition" their calves before marketing them, they don't just load them up and ship them fresh off the cow. The backyard producer is a lot more likely to do that than someone who is making a living raising cattle.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Everybody's doing good today. The calf acts like a puppy. It jumps up and starts wagging its tail when I come into the barn.


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

There are at least three different cultures concerning how to raise cattle. The least number of followers is the small family cow culture. It differs a lot from the commercial beef or dairy culture.

In the small family cow culture, we tend to treat our animals as individuals rather than a member of the herd. We treat our cows almost as a family pet. As such, we can justify giving a more personal touch to their care.

I do that with my Dexters. I do not wean calves until the time comes to sell them. The Dexter cow seems to have retained the instincts to wean her own calf at the proper time. No stress, no noise. With the moderate milk production that a Dexter gives, she has very few milk-related problems. She can handle everything in stride, from losing a calf at birth, to having a calf nurse right up to her next calving time. She can hold her condition throughout.

I keep good records. Hardly any of my cows goes 12 months between calves. They always have access to a bull and will rebreed when nature tells them to. Most re-breed to have a calf 11 months after giving birth, but some will calve in 10 months. Sometimes it is the same cow that went a little longer the last time. She knows when it's time.

I even had an exceptional cow deliver a calf exactly 9 months after her last one. A healthy calf that grew well and became a beautiful cow.

These things violate the rules of the other cultures, but then, Dexters do that just by their size, temperament and milk production. The rules for raising large quantities of beef or producing high volumes of milk do not apply to the little family cows.

This brings you benefits that are not available with the larger breeds. A Dexter cow can be milked once a day, while simultaneously raising a calf (for beef?). On occasion, you can even skip a day without causing her any distress. They are remarkably durable. She can maintain her condition easily while being milked and carrying her next calf, partly because she is an efficient converter of feed, including grass and forbs. Another part of the reason she can so easily hold her condition is the size of the calf she is carrying. Mine bear calves in the 27 to 35 pound range. Some of the cows don't even look pregnant until the last minute. Then they spit out a calf like a watermelon seed. I've never had to assist, but I have watched.

Dexters are tough. We can't abuse them, but they certainly need a lot less input than larger, modern breeds.

I think that Postroad's little calf is going to fare quite well. I hope we will get a report, and maybe a picture, from time to time.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Curious about the cats.










Making a funny face










Wagging her tail.


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## Skip (Mar 13, 2008)

I miss my dexters. And I agree they are hardy. That first week of December my Sweetie was in Winnipeg and yikes it was cold according to him.

When I get everything in order I want to get some again. I wonder if registered stock is the way to go? Well I will be waiting at least another year or two before getting some again. A lot of time to weigh the pros and cons


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

In post 6, pics 2 and 3, what is the clustered clod like material in the foreground?


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

agmantoo said:


> In post 6, pics 2 and 3, what is the clustered clod like material in the foreground?


 Rock hard frozen crap. Its a picture of my outdoor loose housing.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

I judge the nutrient level of the forage and the hay (occasionally fed) by the height of the cow patties. I do not believe that I have ever seen cattle droppings that size. To me that would be an indicator of excessive roughage and inadequate protein. I have witnessed a bovine being constipated and they were bowed and exhibited the leg stance discussed in this post. I am not saying to not use low quality hay but if a person was to do so IMO there should be a mix of the poor hay (80%) and good hay at (20%) calculated at 3% of the animals body weight as a daily ration. Doing so will improve hair condition and maintain body weigh while still conserving hay.

This pic is from stockpiled forage that has a fair amount of thatch (low quality dead grass mixed in) and some OK fescue grass. This is what I hope to see from the cow patties in my paddocks this time of year.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

In their defence it was -15C that morning with a -23C wind-chill. Perhaps they can be excused for hunching a little bit? They crap regular and without straining. They get as much hay as they can eat free choice the past few years. The stool you pictured looks like what they have in summer on fresh grass? Tough to come by out here this time of year. Those pictured are clods I kick out of the straw from time to time. They are multiples are already weathered covered in straw etc. Granted my hay is rough this year. How would a protein deficiency manifest itself? I had been thinking the old guy was getting a little portly in his old age?


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

agman honestly what your picture shows is what my vet say as a mite too loose. Wants it to pile more. I have spent far too much time in the last 15 mts looking at poop. I swear I just want to scrape it to the compost pile and be done. but also in the cold up here if you don't scrape it when it's fresh it just mounds into enormous frozen concrete piles of poo. The cold sux.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Let mom and baby out today. The calf is running like a madman up and down the pasture with moma running behind making that worried moo that cows make when their calves are young.


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## Skip (Mar 13, 2008)

Yes that looks like regular cow droppings from my dexters in minus twenty celsius. It freezes before it hits the ground. I have heard that they are what started the game of hockey, hitting a frozen patty with a stick, perhaps it is why pucks are black?


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## karenp (Jun 7, 2013)

Do you milk any of your Dexters?


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## OakCreekFarm (Dec 11, 2014)

Personally I would just set up a fence line to separate cows and the old bull from the young bulls....problem solved. Less competition between new calves & yearlings and old bull & younger bulls.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

karenp said:


> Do you milk any of your Dexters?


 I have a half Jersey half Dexter that I milked for half a year. Gave lots of really good milk plus left enough for her calf.

She was pretty good about it other than she hated being separated from her calf for twelve hours. I took the milk early in the morning then let them both out to pasture for the day. In the evening I would bring her into the barn and have her calf in a separate enclose. Eventually she stopped coming willingly and it became a battle. By this time her calf with some help from its half siblings could keep up to her production and me being very busy with market gardening decided to let the calves have it.

She is due for a calf in spring and I have been considering another round.

The milk was really good.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

OakCreekFarm said:


> Personally I would just set up a fence line to separate cows and the old bull from the young bulls....problem solved. Less competition between new calves & yearlings and old bull & younger bulls.


 Not a bad plan for a larger herd. Fairly expensive to build and maintain two separate facilities in our climate. Not as simple as stringing a wire. Loose housings. dugouts water lines dug eight feet deep to keep from freezing.


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## kycrawler (Sep 18, 2011)

$2 tet shot and a nickle for a green cheerio would be a start, wean the calves in summer when you don't have to deal with the cold. Less than ideal management is better than just hoping for the best


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## OakCreekFarm (Dec 11, 2014)

I have multiple pastures with just a strand of hot wire and I separated the calves from the herd. They all share the waterer but still separated from each other. And they don't even use any shelters except the calf shelters for newborn calves only. We do not provide shelters for the adult cattle unless its for emergency only (heifer with newborn calf in bad weather etc). My climate is exactly same to yours. It works just fine whenever if its a big herd or small herd. What I read on here and all I have to say is just pure laziness and ignorance. Someone was right, you dodged lot of bullets. It was pure luck that nothing happened bad to your animals because I've had this happened to me. Had some yearlings sucked on their momma after the new calf was born. Had cows rejected their new calf to just nurse the older calf. Had a steer that was weaned four times before he was shipped out to the sale barn. Had bulls bred the heifers before the heifers turned into a year old. Lost some heifers and calves out of teen pregnancies. Had yearlings pestered the new momma and the new calf that it resulted into a new calf with two broken legs. Also you don't know if the old bull was doing his job. Sometimes old mature bulls just quits breeding the cows. Inbreeding can be a bad thing sometimes, especially when they are severely inbred for few generations. But hey you're lucky that it doesn't happened to you......yet.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Everybody's doing great. We now have the opposite extreme in our weather. Above freezing weather with fog and drizzle. Actually more dangerous for calves than below freezing. Weather seems a little psychotic this year. Going to make sure to put lots of fresh bedding under the loose housing every day.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

OakCreekFarm said:


> I have multiple pastures with just a strand of hot wire and I separated the calves from the herd. They all share the waterer but still separated from each other. And they don't even use any shelters except the calf shelters for newborn calves only. We do not provide shelters for the adult cattle unless its for emergency only (heifer with newborn calf in bad weather etc). My climate is exactly same to yours. It works just fine whenever if its a big herd or small herd. What I read on here and all I have to say is just pure laziness and ignorance. Someone was right, you dodged lot of bullets. It was pure luck that nothing happened bad to your animals because I've had this happened to me. Had some yearlings sucked on their momma after the new calf was born. Had cows rejected their new calf to just nurse the older calf. Had a steer that was weaned four times before he was shipped out to the sale barn. Had bulls bred the heifers before the heifers turned into a year old. Lost some heifers and calves out of teen pregnancies. Had yearlings pestered the new momma and the new calf that it resulted into a new calf with two broken legs. Also you don't know if the old bull was doing his job. Sometimes old mature bulls just quits breeding the cows. Inbreeding can be a bad thing sometimes, especially when they are severely inbred for few generations. But hey you're lucky that it doesn't happened to you......yet.


 
Did you join up just so you could rant on me? Look back at the posts.
I eat my bulls. Sell excess heifers. I am working with a few unrelated cows that have remained in the herd from young. How could I possibly have generations of inbred cattle? I am perfectly aware of the protocols necessary for commercial cattle production. Completely knowledgeable about the genetic quirks of the Dexter breed. Deliberately selected genetics to minimise the risks. I run a stable family unit herd run on quality pasture with access to mineral blocks and water. Winter quarters include a three sided covered shelter with plenty of bedding and free choice hay. Also have a barn available for calving in bad weather. Have had the odd one surprise me like this latest. But I inspect the herd three or more times daily so I caught it. Haven't had the need for preventative or medical needling but would if it came up. Have an extremely mellow bunch of animals well imprinted on me from birth. I don't let any kids walk around unattended in cattle areas. So I like the look of horns on my animals. If I didn't I would have bought a polled breed. Never have any problems with dogs harassing this herd. Lots of dogs in my village. Don't castrate. Beef has been real good and a little bit more of it per animal. Heck I like the look of them. Small herd so there have never been more than two extra mature bulls with the old guy. Often only one as is the case now.They have never given me a lick of trouble. I am not observing the hostilities that everyone mentions and I see my animals everyday of the year. That said I would certainly castrate any male offspring from my half jersey cow when that comes up. I wouldn't tolerate Jersey genetics in any intact male animal on my place even at 25 percent.


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## jdcarnathan (Feb 16, 2014)

Postroad, I am gonna rant too......but not at you, we have a small Dexter herd of about 12 cows. We choose to castrate, for the sheer fact at 2 days old I can do it easily. Has that bitten me?,yes I have a beautiful dun steer that would have been a good keeper, but such is life. We have also not castrated and had zero problems. We also don't "doctor" them up every year. If an animal can't hack it on hay/grass, good minerals, and clean water then they are culled. If they are ugly, calve easily, have good temperaments, have bad feet, poor udder attachement then they stay and if their heifers are of quality by our bull then we might keep them. If not, an ugly bovine still makes fine beef. I guess what I am trying to say is simple, are you happy with your animals and the benefits you receive from them?? I think you are==>success! Are you or me raising show animals? Nope, would I want to keep a herd of show animals.....also nope. So regardless of what anyone else says, be happy, it's working, not with their methods but it's working. Life's too dang short to worry about everyone elses opinion. Live life, love doing it, and spread the happiness. Bless y'all from Arkansas.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

jdcarnathan said:


> Postroad, I am gonna rant too......but not at you, we have a small Dexter herd of about 12 cows. We choose to castrate, for the sheer fact at 2 days old I can do it easily. Has that bitten me?,yes I have a beautiful dun steer that would have been a good keeper, but such is life. We have also not castrated and had zero problems. We also don't "doctor" them up every year. If an animal can't hack it on hay/grass, good minerals, and clean water then they are culled. If they are ugly, calve easily, have good temperaments, have bad feet, poor udder attachement then they stay and if their heifers are of quality by our bull then we might keep them. If not, an ugly bovine still makes fine beef. I guess what I am trying to say is simple, are you happy with your animals and the benefits you receive from them?? I think you are==>success! Are you or me raising show animals? Nope, would I want to keep a herd of show animals.....also nope. So regardless of what anyone else says, be happy, it's working, not with their methods but it's working. Life's too dang short to worry about everyone elses opinion. Live life, love doing it, and spread the happiness. Bless y'all from Arkansas.


 Thanks. Like I said before I am eating quality beef at low cost to me. Also I am getting fertilizer for the market garden. On top of that I have my own animals grazing the five acre pasture/equipment yard beside my market garden. Before I had my herd that pasture had a large commercial herd graze through it several times a season. Inevitably they would break through and I would have a 50-60 head herd of beef cattle come through my market garden. No more. The odd little calf finds its way under the fence but only for a little while till they grow a bit taller and or get shocked a few times. In addition it is a simple matter to temporary fence my garden which is right beside the pasture and run my herd through at the end of the season. In a week or so they have cleaned up all leftovers and residue. I also generate some cull vegetables and several tons of pressed apple pomace through he summer season. All converted into beef and fertilizer. I was lucky to purchase my animals years ago when cattle prices had plummeted. Dexters in particular where hard hit as they do not have a commercial slaughter outlet. I have been fortunate but not just lucky as some insist.


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## OakCreekFarm (Dec 11, 2014)

postroad said:


> Did you join up just so you could rant on me? Look back at the posts.
> I eat my bulls. Sell excess heifers. I am working with a few unrelated cows that have remained in the herd from young. How could I possibly have generations of inbred cattle? I am perfectly aware of the protocols necessary for commercial cattle production. Completely knowledgeable about the genetic quirks of the Dexter breed. Deliberately selected genetics to minimise the risks. I run a stable family unit herd run on quality pasture with access to mineral blocks and water. Winter quarters include a three sided covered shelter with plenty of bedding and free choice hay. Also have a barn available for calving in bad weather. Have had the odd one surprise me like this latest. But I inspect the herd three or more times daily so I caught it. Haven't had the need for preventative or medical needling but would if it came up. Have an extremely mellow bunch of animals well imprinted on me from birth. I don't let any kids walk around unattended in cattle areas. So I like the look of horns on my animals. If I didn't I would have bought a polled breed. Never have any problems with dogs harassing this herd. Lots of dogs in my village. Don't castrate. Beef has been real good and a little bit more of it per animal. Heck I like the look of them. Small herd so there have never been more than two extra mature bulls with the old guy. Often only one as is the case now.They have never given me a lick of trouble. I am not observing the hostilities that everyone mentions and I see my animals everyday of the year. That said I would certainly castrate any male offspring from my half jersey cow when that comes up. I wouldn't tolerate Jersey genetics in any intact male animal on my place even at 25 percent.


I only joined up on here to just disagree with your methods. As I've said this before, you dodged lot of bullets. Just be glad that I'm not your neighbor. Good luck to you with raising cattle.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

What would being my neighbor have to do with how I raise cattle?


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

postroad said:


> What would being my neighbor have to do with how I raise cattle?


I suppose what they mean is that because you don't do things like they want you to that they'd harass you and report you until you conformed?


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Oh dear. I apologize if my input contributed to this thread going so far down the negative path. 

I just wanted to point out that Postroad's results, versus his management, are not at all typical and definitely not the best practices for any "wannabes" or newbies who might be reading. 

Postroad has been very thick skinned and gracious about it! I think the important points have all been made, no need to keep on whipping him.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

This does seem like a good place to end this topic.


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