# Not sure what to "offer"



## LittleRedHen (Apr 26, 2006)

We have some friends who have 10 acres up for sale. I very much would like to buy the land but I have to be very frugal and smart about how much we offer them. They bought the land in 2008 for 25K (cash/outright) They did a little work on the place and made a homesite but then they found an old schoolhouse to convert and made that into their homestead instead. Now they want to sell the farm land (its 10 rolling acres with a springfed pond 1/3 of it is maples/walnut/oaks) The soil is clay and heavy soil. So its a nice place. It is all set up the way I'd want some land to hobby farm on (but may or may not ever move there) it is 10 miles from here and I need land for expanding my garden and for haying for my cows (neighbor already cuts/bales and i could contract with him to do the same for me) 

But anyways, they tried selling it two years ago for 32K with a realtor and it didn't sell. Currently they have it for sale by owner for 34,900. It is NOT worth 3500 an acre. Not in West Michigan and not in that area. However I am not entirely sure what it is worth. There is no other similar parcels for sale. I can find flat land with no privacy selling for 20K for 6.14 acres. (set up for land contract at 10% down and $200 a month payments) This is 10 acres with privacy but out in the country farther so location to jobs/work is decreased but you do have increase of privacy. A few miles away there is 10 acres for 25K but a little farther from town and it has more trees, not really set up for haying or gardening.

I'd think offering them 30K is reasonable but if I offer them 30K it is pushing what I can afford a little bit. 25K is affordable. 30K?? I'd have to wait until after my taxes come back and pay cash for 5K of it. The land doesn't really have a driveway. They dug out the heavy soil and land about 12 inches of sand down. The sand is perhaps a "base" but, it NEEDS gravel put down to be traveled on. If I offered 30K it would definitely leave nothing for a driveway nor leave me anything to put up a small building for storage.


So, what do I offer?25K AS IS or 30K and you guys finish the driveway? Because they are friends I don't really want to low ball and say 20K though if it was anyone else I probably would lol but i'd say 2500-3000 an acre is reasonable..


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

What I offered would not depend on if we were friends or not. What you offer can't be dependent on what they paid for it anyway. Not in this economy.

I would give them a standing offer of $20k to expire in say, 1 year. If any time in that year they accept the offer, pay them for it. Just tell them that is what you could afford. That will give you the breathing room for driveway, etc. They may be insulted at first, may be less so when the land doesn't sell and they want their money out of it.

But looking back over your OP, I'm not sure I would spend any money buying land 10 miles away from where I lived that I maybe would never live on. You might be better off buying land a piece at a time adjoining your own place you live on now. THAT land isn't the only option for you.


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

If you are friends now, you want to make sure you are still friends after the sale.That comes at a different price. Don't let the amount that seperates you get in the way of friendship. Can you afford to meet in the middle? Will it be friendly.

It looks very nice. I feel that the land will be worth more than you think. I feel that you can afford more than you think. I feel that given the opportunity, someone would out-bid you today. I feel that while you are thinking about it, someone else who is qualified also, is getting ready to buy it.

I agree that land next to you is worth more to you than land away from you. I feel that if you buy it today, you will not be sorry someday.

You will always be sorry if you do nothing. 

The value of it two years ago was in a galaxy far away.


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## LittleRedHen (Apr 26, 2006)

The land that surrounds me is sand... and not very farmable.(seriously, the only thing on it is BEACH grass and cottonwood trees) Not to mention, the land around me is for sale for 9K an ACRE  Its subdivided into a subdivision and they do not wish to have a "hobby farm" around here. Actually its full of restrictions on fences and farming. I just didn't buy from them. But certainly could never do it for 9K an acre. We COULD some day move to this 10 acres if we purchased it but as I told my husband, i wouldn't demand it . Our current home is valued at only 75% of what it was worth 5 years ago. We had bought the land and had a new house built on it in 2001. Right now we could not even sell it for the price we put into it. In fact, it would be a big loss so NO selling this home. Maybe in 5 years. I really put my heart and soul into large scale gardening this year using composted cow manure (and some other compost) and it was very difficult. I have friends who have heavy soil (with same composting as me) and they barely paid attention to their garden this year and they did amazing. Me? I about burned out on trying to garden where the compost/nutrients leached out faster than I could add it and even 2 hours a night watering everything nothing was retaining water very well and everything stressed terrible. If i am ever to expand my garden to the size I need to support my family (I have 7 children) I cannot garden on sand anymore. To buy this land we are going from 2.24 acres of yellow and white sand to 10 acres of heavy soil with some clay... It already has 2 acres plowed and planted in corn that is beautiful soil. I could garden to my hearts delight and spend my fall recovering from weeding burn out


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## LittleRedHen (Apr 26, 2006)

There are a lot of benefits to the other area as well. We currently pay $1300 a year in land taxes here for a 1040sq foot home on 2.24 acres built in 2001. The neighbor across the road from this property put in a similar sized home in 2002 on 80!! acres and they only pay $500 a year. I don't why the taxes in my township is so high. Maybe it is due to being so close to the freeway and Lake Michigan (a lot of chicagoites buy 2nd homes around here) or what but its expensive. But for a very basic home on little land, we pay a lot  The land taxes on the 10 acres is only $110-120 a year. To buy 10 acres in my township would cost me quite a bit a year.(I have done property searches for taxes in the lots around me.. the 2 acre parcel next to me is $453 a year)


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

So would you commute to it like a job to farm on it? Also, if you are going to keep the house you live in now then it doesn't matter how much the taxes are on the other property. I mean the low taxes of the other property have no bearing on your main residence taxes because you say you aren't selling your main house.

If it were meeeeeee  ......

I would buy the property, move to the property, then rent out the main house, or sell it to one of those Chicagoites. In the long run that is probably the most cost-effective plan if you're going for cost-effective. I am one of those Chicagoites and my taxes are $5500 a year for a 1600 square foot duplex, and that is so far away from the city that we're still surrounded by farms  They won't balk at your price if the property is nice and close to the lake.

If you don't buy the land, the answer to a lot of your gardening problems is to use raised beds. Then your sandy soil composition won't matter. You won't be correcting for it, you will just put the right stuff in the raised beds in the first place.

We are looking for property in WI at about the same price point so I know how it feels to find something that feels perfect. Good luck!


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

And is there a water source? Has a perk test been done? Sometimes those things are why properties don't sell.


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## LittleRedHen (Apr 26, 2006)

yes water source... and infact the pond is Springfed. It is 20x15 foot pond that is 10 feet deep despite the heavy drought. Normal depth is about 13-14 feet plus the current owner has one of those backhoe things with the intention of digging the pond a little wider/longer to try and attract buyers. Within a mile every neighbor is Amish/left Amish but still dresses like Amish. In other words, everyone has big gardens and 1-6 dairy cows, chickens, and even a couple of jackasses with half a dozen children running around. Where I live now no one has children, most are retired and I am the only one (that I am aware of) in the entire TOWNSHIP with a family dairy cow. I guess I long to somewhat "fit in" too.

The only reason why we couldn't start building something there and rent out our current home is that 100% of our equity is tied up in the house. It would take a loan to buy the land and there is no way to borrow enough that would allow us to build a house and buy the land. This house would have to sell first. Its a perfect little starter home/retirement. It just needs a chicagoite to buy it  My dream though would be to someday build a house there. I dream of a polebarn turned into home


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

Do you homeschool? Could you make do with a doublewide? They are all over free for the hauling down here. Saw quite a few in WI too.


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## LittleRedHen (Apr 26, 2006)

They just had it on the "market' for a year (around 2008 2009 which is when the market was the worst) but otherwise haven't had it officially up for sale. Just have it on craigslist. They own it free and clear and do use the land for hay for their cows and grain but at same time, he has been unemployed for the last 6 months and is hurting for money. They have been cutting down their critter flocks and herds so they won't need the hay as badly but they need to pay their bills and therefore looking again to put it back on the market. If I want to make a real good offer (and lower at that)


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## LittleRedHen (Apr 26, 2006)

Yes we homeschool  (Another reason we would fit in among the amish lol) I have considered buying an older Doublewide that needs work or even just finding someone who wants to sell a polebarn. Sometimes people sell them real cheap because they are being foreclosed on and want to liquidate some of their moveable assets.


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

We have a lot of that down here. "Free doublewide for hauling" "free pole barn for the hauling" "free singlewide for hauling." Heck, get the kids their own trailer 

If they are hurting for money I would definitely offer $20k. That is what the free market is all about. Buy low, sell high. You are just the "buy low"-er in this transaction.

If they don't want to sell it for that little, they will hold onto it. If they want the $, they will take your offer. If they had it listed for 32k with a realtor and it didn't sell, then it is priced too high.


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## LittleRedHen (Apr 26, 2006)

Thanks.. I will highly consider making a first offer of 20K and let them negotiate . I really don't think they will go for 20 BUUUUUT its a good starting place. 20K would certainly give me the ability to finish the driveway and get finishing the place and I would be that much closer to eventually being able to move there if I just had 20K hanging over my head instead of 30


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

I would definitely phrase it in the "$20k is what we can AFFORD..." variety. So as not to offend.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

I'm not sure why they would sell, with improvements, for so much less than they paid...would you?

Mon


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

What they paid is irrelevant. If they need the money, they will sell it. She said it was owned outright, so no loan to pay off or feel bad about. 

If they need to sell it and hers is the best offer, they will sell. Some people just don't think toward the future. They were already pound foolish by buying this property then finding another property that was "just perfect" (the schoolhouse mentioned in the OP). Now, their circumstances are different it seems.

Anyway, it doesn't hurt to offer. That's why it's called an offer. They can counter - you never know, they may just accept your offer. No way to know unless you ask.


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## LittleRedHen (Apr 26, 2006)

the only improvements is bringing in sand and leveling off a spot for a homesite. (and they own the equipment so it was the price of sand) As is right now, he hasnt worked in 6 months except some odd jobs. I bought my land for 20K plus put an 75K home on it for a total of 95K plus added an outdoor wood furnance (5K) greatly improved the land... put in a driveway and a garage of sorts (not conventional) but yet if I put my house on the market right now it would only be fetching 75-80K. Its only 10 years old! and its stick built with many improvements. No way in the world did they gain 10K in value for $300 in sand  They also bought when land was higher than it is now (prior to the recession) market is about dead. (which is why we cannot sell at this time) if it was me and my husband hasn't worked in over 6 months and someone offered me 20k for land I purchased for 25K and I have had it for sale off and on for 3 years, I would probably take it or at least counteroffer with 25K .. to "break even" so to speak..

I will probably say this to them "We checked with the bank and XXX is our borrowing limit at this time. We would like to make you an offer of 20K (or something) As IS... " and let them know we are figuring the amount to finish the driveway so that it is accessible and offer to let their son have hunting priviledges there. we dont hunt but they do and it something bittersweet to them in consideration of selling. He loves hunting but there is no hunting where they live. Anyways, I will update and let ya'll know how it goes whenever i know how it goes


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

Man, it's crazy if they own excavating equipment and he can't find any work. Tradesmen/skilled workers can always find odd jobs if they are looking for them and reliable.


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## dancingfatcat (Jan 1, 2008)

What's the worst they can say...........no??? I say offer the 20,000.


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## DryHeat (Nov 11, 2010)

If they had it up with a realtor for 32K that might mean they'd've been willing to net $29K or so... offer of 31K minus 2K agent fees? So was that definitely a couple thou worse market than now, or about the same, or better? I wouldn't lowball at 20K myself but might start at whatever would be a comfortable amount for you around 23-25K AND maybe throw in an offer to let them have the hay harvest free for a couple of years, or share it, or some such. Or offer 26K requiring the pond be enlarged and driveway completed, but include the hay a couple years, or use of pasture for owners' livestock, something like that. Anything else you can do or include that they'd need to sweeten the deal?

Are the Amish neighbors there likely to be helpful folks or standoffish? Greater or lesser risk of thefts if you start work on the property and have to leave equipment and supplies on the site?


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## floyd242 (Jun 11, 2012)

If you're a friend I would ask them what their friend price would be for the property... you never know.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Have it appraised.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I played the game for about 11 years and one of the first things I learned was that people are NEVER predictable! Early on I had one seller who absolutely positively would not list her property for a penny less than 110k... and was adamant that she would never take a penny less. I showed the property a couple times.... had it on the market a month, maybe two... and a fellow offered 45k. As an agent I of course had to present the offer.... which she gleefully accepted! no counter offer, no dickering, just take the mans money. On the flip side I once had a property listed for 80k and had done a lot of business with this particular seller... he was always ready to haggle... and quite often would sell for in the 80 percent range of his asking price. I showed this property to a young couple who managed to irritate the man.... they made a fairly good offer, which he rejected with the following comment.... I will pull that farm off the market and pay you a full commission before I will sell it to that jerk for any price! 

Figure out what the property is worth to YOU.... and make your offer... In 11 years I was never once shot at for bringing in a low offer.  YMMV


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## RonM (Jan 6, 2008)

Just phrase it in a way the is not offensive....." Wow if you were only asking 20 grand I would take it in a heartbeat, it might be worth more, I just couldnt afford to go higher", wish I could, sure would like to own it , but............


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## old school (Aug 26, 2012)

I would not let $5000 make me or break me so offer what it is worth to you and that is it.Looks like a dream to me, nice pictures.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Honesty is the best policy and it pays off in the end. It keeps you a friend! I'd offer what you feel you can afford and tell them why' simple as that. If there is doubt on the property value, an Appraisal may be worth getting.

I don't put a dollar figure on my friends, so business dealings are done very carefully with them. If it was making an offer to an unknown Seller, I'd tend to go lower.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

If they are asking $34,900+ without a real estate company, it appears they think the land is worth close to that. I wouldn't "lowball" down to $20,000. I'd offer $25,000. as it appears you think the land is worth that much. Since that is what they paid they would be more likely to accept it than a much lower offer. You might want to stipulate that they enlarge the pond or finish the driveway (whichever is more important to you).


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