# Solar panels.



## bmhughes89 (May 31, 2017)

I'm interested in putting some solar panels in. This will be later on down the road, no time right now. I was wondering if anyone had any websites or forums specifically for beginners. I know enough about electricity to work on my home, but not enough about the intricate parts of solar panels. I've looked at batteries and inverters and connecting them to breakers, but I'd love to chat with someone that has done it and can help me with exactly what I need. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys!!!


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

We got our solar panels from: Sun Electronics sunelec.com

Our E-panel from: Wholesale Solar
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/

Our batteries from: Tractor supply
http://www.tractorsupply.com/

We have 4400 watts of Solar panels and a 48VDC / 600AH battery bank.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

I'm installing an 8Kw system as I type this... 

My advice, go with the best.. stay away from anything made in China. Do your homework. 

I'm using SolarWorld panels and an SMA inverter with a ground mount array that is 13ft x 40ft.. 

If you tell us what you need, I can probably help.. I've done months of research into everything from grid tie to off grid.. researched all the manufacturers, learned about batteries and common mistakes, etc..


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## LAFarm (Mar 8, 2015)

Murby said:


> I'm installing an 8Kw system as I type this...
> 
> My advice, go with the best.. stay away from anything made in China. Do your homework.
> 
> ...


Have had SolarWorld panels since 2011. However, I am grid tied and used the Enphase microinverters with the Enlighten system monitoring. Have to say it is one of the best decisions that we have made. System has already paid for itself. Generates more kwh each month than we use and our state has net metering.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

LAFarm said:


> Have had SolarWorld panels since 2011. However, I am grid tied and used the Enphase microinverters with the Enlighten system monitoring. Have to say it is one of the best decisions that we have made. System has already paid for itself. Generates more kwh each month than we use and our state has net metering.


I'm curious to know the difference between your predicted energy yield and actual yield.


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## LAFarm (Mar 8, 2015)

Murby said:


> I'm curious to know the difference between your predicted energy yield and actual yield.


I had to submit a performance model to the IRS in order to be elgible for the federal tax credit. I used Solar Pathfinder to prepare the report. It calculated the output of my system using existing shade and sun path patterns by the month for my location. Has been pretty close as weather patterns (rain, clouds, etc) do have an effect on the output. When I installed my system, a homeowner could self install and still qualify for the tax credits. My state has since changed the requirements so that you must use a licensed solar contractor. There is (or was) a tremendous mark up for that service. Would have nearly doubled my cost and would not have been very practical for me to do. My payback period would have been around 15 years.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

LAFarm said:


> I had to submit a performance model to the IRS in order to be elgible for the federal tax credit. I used Solar Pathfinder to prepare the report. It calculated the output of my system using existing shade and sun path patterns by the month for my location. Has been pretty close as weather patterns (rain, clouds, etc) do have an effect on the output. When I installed my system, a homeowner could self install and still qualify for the tax credits. *My state has since changed the requirements so that you must use a licensed solar contractor. * There is (or was) a tremendous mark up for that service. Would have nearly doubled my cost and would not have been very practical for me to do. My payback period would have been around 15 years.


Wow.. What a ripoff. Its basically holding you hostage to the financial benefit of others if you want to do something good.

This stuff isn't rocket science..


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

Licensed contractors has been in most state and federal requirements since the they came out.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Gary in ohio said:


> Licensed contractors has been in most state and federal requirements since the they came out.


And that's why it's not widely utilized.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Murby said:


> Wow.. What a ripoff. Its basically holding you hostage to the financial benefit of others if you want to do something good.
> 
> This stuff isn't rocket science..


There's no rip off.
If you just "want to do something good" you can install your own systems.
If you want the *tax credit*, you follow those rules.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's no rip off.
> If you just "want to do something good" you can install your own systems.
> If you want the *tax credit*, you follow those rules.


There is no net gain for the person installing the system... The government provides a tax credit but the "licensed installer" charges excessive rates for their service. Where is the benefit to the owner of the system? The only person benefiting here is the licensed installer.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Murby said:


> There is no net gain for the person installing the system... The government provides a tax credit but the "licensed installer" charges excessive rates for their service. Where is the benefit to the owner of the system? The only person benefiting here is the licensed installer.


The bank handling the financing and the state lobbyists.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

To sad, that when there is a good idea out there, they instantly try to ruin it by fees, taxes or other expenses and regulations...saw that in Germany, where i am from...very sad...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Murby said:


> There is no net gain for the person installing the system... The government provides a tax credit but the "licensed installer" *charges excessive rates* for their service. Where is the benefit to the owner of the system? The only person benefiting here is the licensed installer.


That's a subjective opinion.
Many people who think those providing services "charge excessive rates" also think they are underpaid at their own jobs.
Why should there be a "net gain" for the one who will own the panels?
It's not supposed to show a profit or be free.
Their "net gain" is getting a system installed correctly at a lower cost than it would be without incentives.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

So you see why a 5kw off-grid system [with battery-bank] costs so much less than a 5kw net-metering system.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's a subjective opinion.
> Many people who think those providing services "charge excessive rates" also think they are underpaid at their own jobs.
> Why should there be a "net gain" for the one who will own the panels?
> It's not supposed to show a profit or be free.
> *Their "net gain" is getting a system installed correctly at a lower cost than it would be without incentives.*


I think (?) that was the point.. The cost isn't lower.. it remains the same.. The installer charges more, the customer pays more, but then the customer gets a tax write-off.. The installer gets more money because of the customer's tax write-off.. 

I am installing my own 8KW system as I type this.. (pictures to come soon).. but I'm doing all the work myself and will collect the 30% tax credit myself also. That's a benefit for me.

But if I hired someone who has jacked up their pricing because of the tax credit, I would end up paying them more for the same job.. 

This happened with my wood stove back in 2010. I bought a wood stove and had it installed. The price of the stove was $2600.. I later found out that a few weeks before the 30% tax credits were approved, the price of the stove was only $1750.. As soon as the feds created the 30% rebate program, all the stove prices jumped 30% too..


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

@Murby...cant wait for pics...


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## Al Yaz (Jun 13, 2017)

Murby said:


> I think (?) that was the point.. The cost isn't lower.. it remains the same.. The installer charges more, the customer pays more, but then the customer gets a tax write-off.. The installer gets more money because of the customer's tax write-off..
> 
> I am installing my own 8KW system as I type this.. (pictures to come soon).. but I'm doing all the work myself and will collect the 30% tax credit myself also. That's a benefit for me.
> 
> ...


Yes please, pictures when you can. Always exciting to see a system go together, especially one as large as you have! Lots to learn for the rest of us


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Looks pretty scamy to me...


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Meinecke said:


> Looks pretty scamy to me...


I reported the post as a scam and its been deleted


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## Heizen1 (Jan 28, 2021)

The advancement in technology has seen the development of solar panels which convert solar energy to electricity. An inverter is useful in converting the battery power from solar panels while a charge controller protects the batteries and panel from overheating.

When it comes to battery wiring, there are two ways of doing it; parallel wiring and series wiring. Hooking up the battery in parallel position helps to increase the power or current while the series wiring helps to increase voltage wiring.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

Heizen1 said:


> When it comes to battery wiring, there are two ways of doing it; parallel wiring and series wiring. Hooking up the battery in parallel position helps to increase the power or current while the series wiring helps to increase voltage wiring.


Running batteries in series or parallel doesn't increase the power. The power is the same regardless of which you choose, What does change is the voltage and current.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Putting 2 batteries in series increases the voltage. 12V+12V=24V but NOT Amp Hour capacity.
Putting 2 batteries in Parallel increases the Capacity (in Amp Hours) but NOT the Voltage. 12V/100AH & 12V/100AH = 12V/200AH.

Current Capacity handling is determined by the Battery Type, Size & Chemistry.
Batteries in a properly configured Parallel setup will "Share" both Load & Charge capacity, thereby reducing the amount being pushed/pulled for an individual battery in the set.

For information on properly configuring Battery Banks refer to this document from Victron Systems.
VICTRON Wiring-Unlimited-EN.pdf


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## MichaelK! (Oct 22, 2010)

Very doable. The first thing you should do is itemize what it is you want to run so you have a list of the loads you want to power. Then you can design a system that meets your needs. Don't start buying random parts until you have a solid idea of what you need to build.

Systems can be divided into small (12V), medium (24V) and large (48V). This is a general rule of thumb as to what they can do...
12V: loads less than or equal to 1000W: lights, TV, laptop, ect (produce 0.5-1.5 kWh of power per day)
24V: loads more than 1000 or less than 2000W: refrigerator, washing machine, microwave, ect (produce 2.0-6.0kWh per day)
48V: loads more than 2000W: wellpumps, powertools, toaster ovens, ect (produce 10-20+ kWh per day)

Over the years, I've built and used all three. I would not recommend 12V for you unless your installation has wheels. Right now I've got a 24V system in my workshop and a 48V system in my cabin. I would NOT recommend you buy a kit that includes solar panels. Do NOT buy solar panels on-line and have them shipped. You are going to pay top dollar for shipping stuff made primarily of glass. Do NOT buy 12V solar panels. Your best deals are going to be high-voltage grid-tie panels you can buy off of Craigslist or Ebay when you have local pickup. So, buy local and drive to the seller to get panels. Expect to get between 2-4 watts/$. If you are getting panels for a $ a watt, you are paying too much.

Buy good electronics. Modern MPPT charge controllers act as a tranformer, converting the raw high voltage coming off the panels into battery charging current. For example, I have four 245W grid-tie panels wired in series to produce ~8A at 120VDC. My Midnight 200 charge controller takes that and transforms it down to 26V and charges my batteries with ~31A of current. Be careful though buying off Ebay. There are fake products "called" MPPT. Read the fine print. If a "MPPT" controller has a shipping weight of 16oz, it's a fake. If the controller has a shipping weight of 16lb, then it's likely to be real.

Get a sine-wave inverter. Do NOT buy a square-wave or modified square-wave inverter. They are not good at running electrical motors in things like your refrigerator. There are two classes of inverters, inexpensive high-frequency transformerless inverters, and more expensive low-frequency transformer based inverters. The HF units are cheap, but are only good at powering resistive loads like lights, toasters, ect. They don't have surge capacity. Devices running electric motors with high start-up surges need a LF inverter. Things like the refrigerator, air-conditioner, power tools, ect.

Let me give you some suggestions with some prices to help decide what you need/want. Keep in mind that these are generalities and subject to discussion. Keep in mind that big loads usually require big batteries, and big batteries require big solar arrays. You also want to scale your batteries on how many cloudy days of no sun you need to go through. Don't drain the batteries less than 50%. The math would be... (power per day X number of days X 2)/system voltage. Let's say you use 3000Wh per day, and you need one extra day for rain. (3000W X 2days X 2)/24V =500Ah battery.

Small 24V system (can make 3-5 kWh of power per day)
4 250W grid-tie panels (1000W) wired in 2S2P(60-80$ each)
4 6V golf-cart batteries, 200-250Ah capacity (100-130$ each)
Epever 40A MPPT charge controller (140$)
Samlex 24V 1500W SW inverter (520$
3000W gasoline generator (300-400$)

Large 24V system (can make 6-10 kWh of power per day)
8 250W grid-tie panels (2000W) wired in 4S2P (60-80$ each)
4 to 6 large Trojan or Rolls 4-6V batteries, 400-600Ah capacity (300-600$ each)
Midnight 200 charge controller (600$)
Schneider Conext 4024 SW inverter split-phase 120/240VAC inverter (1400$)
4000-5000W gasoline generator (500-600$)

Large 48V system (can make 20+ kWh of power per day)
16 250W grid-tie panels (4000W) (60-80$ each)
8-12 large Trojan or Rolls 4-6V batteries, 400-600Ah capacity (300-600$ each)
Midnight 200 charge controller (600$)
Schneider XW+6848 or Outback Radian 8048 SW 48V inverter (3200-3800$)
6000-7500W generator (600-700$)

I bought most of my electronics here: RES Supply: Renewable Energy Systems for Less.
I bought a lot of my newer panels off Ebay and Craigslist, for mostly 55-62$ per panel. Astronergy has been the best performers. Renogy the poorest performer.
Get your batteries from a local dealer. Get off-grid batteries. Do NOT get hybrid, Marine starting batteries. The best brands are Trojan and Rolls.


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