# Government taking steps to kill thousands of Free Range birds



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

USDA Planning For Hundreds of Bird Flu Outbreaks In Fall
By Peggy Lowe
KCUR.org
July 22, 2015


U.S. Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack said Wednesday that the federal government is preparing for 500 simultaneous outbreaks of bird flu this fall with more people on the ground and landfills lined up in advance.

During testimony before an oversight hearing on USDA programs, Vilsack said 3,200 employees have been added to the 8,000 who already work for the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service. The service is a sub-agency under the USDA. A command structure will be put in place along with incident teams, he said.

"We are planning for a circumstance where we are simultaneously having to deal with 500 outbreaks," Vilsack said. "We think that's sort of a worst-case scenario situation, so were planning for that."

Vilsack came under fire for the USDA's response this spring, when the worst outbreak of highly pathogenic avian flu hit Midwestern states, mostly turkeys in Minnesota and laying hens in Iowa. The USDA has promised Congress to better the situation, Reuters reported.


Full text:
http://kcur.org/post/usda-planning-hundreds-bird-flu-outbreaks-fall


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

Yep, I just happened to be able to bend the ear of a USDA veterinarian yesterday morning. She said: "Take a look at the employment section of the USDA website". 

They are hiring a good number of veterinarians, temporary techs and emergency personnel in case this bird flu thing blows up again in the fall. The fear is that it will move east, and hit the big farms in the Southeast after the weather cools down. They pretty much got caught with their pants down this spring, and overworked/burned out their regular employees, plus a whole lot of volunteer disaster-types trying to get a handle on it here in the Upper Midwest. 

So, if you have vet tech experience or a good background in poultry, are willing to spend a few weeks in Ames doing the training, and can travel and be gone for weeks at a time at the drop of a hat, the money ain't bad, and the contacts and experience gained would be priceless. Just thought I'd pass on the info.

https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/406060500

https://www.usajobs.gov/Search?Keyword=APHIS


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Glad I planted plenty of cayenne peppers for feeding the chows and pit-bulls. Should have enough to feed the Jersey bull a little, too.


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

Alright, I admit, I have not had my coffee yet ... but I don't get how they are specifically targeting free range birds. I read the linked article twice. (I am not being sarcastic, just asking.)


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

FarmerKat said:


> Alright, I admit, I have not had my coffee yet ... but I don't get how they are specifically targeting free range birds. I read the linked article twice. (I am not being sarcastic, just asking.)


Yep, I don't see that either. Most of the birds that have been destroyed were from big indoor operations.

The vet I talked to said she only dealt with one small farm who free-ranged. The others were big commercial operations. The free-ranger's birds got it, and he just depopulated. Said there are many different tacks that can be taken to decontaminate, but doing the necessary clean-up, composting of carcasses, and 180 days of depop should cover it. He should be good to start up again in the spring. They tailor the clean-up to the individual facility.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

barnbilder said:


> Glad I planted plenty of cayenne peppers for feeding the chows and pit-bulls. Should have enough to feed the Jersey bull a little, too.


Ok, I give. Maybe its a lack of sleep, caffeine and the dose of Benadryl I just took but, what does feeding dogs and a bull cayenne have to do with the bird flu?


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

Well, my suspicion is the thread title is to :stirpot:


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

FarmerKat said:


> Alright, I admit, I have not had my coffee yet ... but I don't get how they are specifically targeting free range birds. I read the linked article twice. (I am not being sarcastic, just asking.)


I think it's that the natural reservoir for the bug is in the wild bird population. The free range poultry are then liable to pick it up from the wild birds with which they can have contact.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

terri9630 said:


> Ok, I give. Maybe its a lack of sleep, caffeine and the dose of Benadryl I just took but, what does feeding dogs and a bull cayenne have to do with the bird flu?


Burns a little coming out. Makes all the difference between "I think I'll lay here under this tree" and "Who is that guy, I'm going to mess him up". If people are going to waste my money AND gas my free range chickens, I'm at least going to get a good show out of the deal.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

barnbilder said:


> Burns a little coming out. Makes all the difference between "I think I'll lay here under this tree" and "Who is that guy, I'm going to mess him up". If people are going to waste my money AND gas my free range chickens, I'm at least going to get a good show out of the deal.


Maybe it's all the allergy meds I'm on right now, but I still don't get it.....


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

terri9630 said:


> Maybe it's all the allergy meds I'm on right now, but I still don't get it.....


He thinks it will make the dogs mean enough to attack the *Govt agents* coming to tag his chickens.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> He thinks it will make the dogs mean enough to attack the *Govt agents* coming to tag his chickens.


Ahhhh. Makes no sense. Maybe it's just me.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

One could conclude that free range chickens will have a thousand times greater exposure to migrating infected birds as those hens in a bio-secure poultry house. Will these additional government workers create more good or more evil for the independent thinking homesteader?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Another step towards total government control of our food, registering your chickens in NC:

If you own a chicken, North Carolina wants to know
Jeff Jeffrey, Staff Writer
Triangle Business Journal
July 24, 2015


The N.C. Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services is ramping up its efforts to prepare for a potential outbreak of highly pathogenic avian flu.

The department is now requiring all poultry owners to register with the department - regardless of the number of birds they own - as part of an effort to guard against an outbreak of avian influenza.

The department says requiring all chicken owners to register for an NCFarmID number will make it easier for the department to alert them of an outbreak. An online sign-up form will be available after Aug. 1, the department says. The order was issued by state veterinarian Doug Meckes.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

They would probably be more effective by not doing anything. Which would include not condemning private land and turning it into wildlife refuges and then enforcing strict restrictions on waterfowl harvest, thereby creating an abnormally high population of certain species.
Obviously, biosecurity is a pipe dream or the big poultry farms wouldn't be having a problem, and they have the latest state of the art biosecurity up in themselves. They have to get water from somewhere, if that water has recently had a jillion snow geese plopping in it, there you go.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

haypoint said:


> Another step towards total government control of our food, registering your chickens in NC:
> 
> If you own a chicken, North Carolina wants to know
> Jeff Jeffrey, Staff Writer
> ...


Yikes. Wonders about the details.....'required'?, consequences?.....all chickens must have their 'green cards' or face depopulation?


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Another step towards total government control of our food, registering your chickens in NC:
> 
> If you own a chicken, North Carolina wants to know
> Jeff Jeffrey, Staff Writer
> ...


That is scary stuff ... I wonder how many people will comply.:run:


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Another step towards total government control of our food, registering your chickens in NC:
> 
> If you own a chicken, North Carolina wants to know
> Jeff Jeffrey, Staff Writer
> ...


I don't see it as government control of the food supply. Maryland requires all poultry owners to register, although I'm sure a large number of backyard chicken owners aren't registered simply because they don't haven't heard they're supposed to. 

I'm registered because I own chickens, and I sell eggs. It costs me zero dollars per year, and I've received exactly zero hassle from the Dept. of Ag. It does help in tracking disease, so they know who has chickens where. They can better monitor outbreaks if they know what they're dealing with. 

Not a big deal, and not a cause for a tinfoil hat, IMO. Of course, I also am one of those who fills out my USDA census survey.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

FarmerKat said:


> That is scary stuff ... I wonder how many people will comply.:run:


I don't see it as any more "scary" than signing up to get emergency or severe weather alerts sent to you. 

Many farms already have a premise number, and lots of those with small backyard flocks don't spend time on the internet, so they won't know about it to begin with.

It appears to me they are just trying to preemptively set up a network to help quickly stop any HPAI outbreaks before they spread as far as they did in the Midwest


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Not surprising since North Carolina has a huge commercial poultry industry that controls the agriculture department. This disease has been around for a long time. It has probably run the gauntlet of possible mutations dozens of times. It is not a serious threat to anyone, except for large commercial poultry producers. If they followed the biosecurity recommendations that they strong armed the government into printing on fancy pamphlets , they wouldn't have a problem. Even less if there weren't unnaturally disproportionate wildfowl populations, thanks to broad reaching and burdensome , not to mention antiquated, regulation like the Endangered Species Act and the National Wildlife Refuge Act . Beware of people that create a problem offering themselves as the only solutions to help to solve it.


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I don't see it as any more "scary" than signing up to get emergency or severe weather alerts sent to you.
> 
> Many farms already have a premise number, and lots of those with small backyard flocks don't spend time on the internet, so they won't know about it to begin with.
> 
> It appears to me they are just trying to preemptively set up a network to help quickly stop any HPAI outbreaks before they spread as far as they did in the Midwest


I simply don't like the idea of registering with the government in general. That is why I find laws like that scary. I grew up in a communist country and have a good amount of skepticism when it comes to "registering with the government". Maybe more than necessary ...

It seems that everywhere I turn, someone wants me to "register". For example (and I know it has nothing to do with chickens or even homesteading), our local public pool wants everyone who goes there to register - which means providing a lot of personal information including SSNs of every family member. I just want to pay the fee and take the kids swimming. I don't think they need our SSNs. So every time we go, we refuse to register, they get all worked up and eventually let us in as "guests". I expect that one day we will be banned from going there. 

As for registering chickens ... it may sound like a good idea to receive notification of disease. But what happens if you don't register. Will they come and confiscate your birds until you do? What if you like bird watching and have a bird feeder in your backyard? Should they start keeping track of bird feeders because you might attract a wild bird with bird flu? How about anyone who keeps other types of birds (parrots, finches, etc.) as pets? Should they register too?

Anyway, I think if you (general you) have animals, it is your responsibility to stay informed rather than relying on some registration with government to keep your animals healthy.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I simply don't like the idea of registering with the government in general. That is why I find laws like that scary. I grew up in a communist country and have a good amount of skepticism when it comes to "registering with the government". Maybe more than necessary ...


I can understand you skepticism.

In *my* dealings with NC's state APHIS or NCDA, I have always found them to be friendly and as helpful as possible.

It should be more obvious in a few days how well they intend to enforce this, since there will likely be news announcements once the registration link is up and running


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

My last 3 meat bird chickens just went in the freezer about half an hour ago. I wouldn't guess there would be any possible future requirements for tracking them to my grill.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Well, they are taking names and addresses:

 State Asks Chicken and Turkey Owners to Report Location, Size of Flocks [RI]
By Mark Schieldrop, Patch Staff
Patch.com
August 5, 2015


Got chickens or turkeys? How many? Where are they?

In anticipation of a possible outbreak of highly pathogenic avian influenza, those are the questions the state Department of Environmental Management are asking chicken owners in Rhode Island.

The disease has not been found in Rhode Island but "DEM is taking steps now to control HPAI should it spread to the Ocean State," according to a Wednesday news release. "As part of these preparations the Department is reaching out to all poultry owners, including commercial as well as backyard or hobby breeders, and asking them to voluntarily notify DEM of the location of their poultry and the approximate number and type of birds they possess."

The state has developed a HPAI response plan which lays out the steps that would be taken to protect public and animal health if the disease is detected.


Full text:
http://patch.com/rhode-island/cranston/state-asks-chicken-turkey-owners-report-location-size-flocks-0


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

I've seen no news announcements of the requirement to register on any of the local media


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I've seen no news announcements of the requirement to register on any of the local media


The above news announcement was for Rhode Island and they are making it voluntary, for now. But you know how that goes. Where's your government outrage?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

haypoint said:


> The above news announcement was for Rhode Island and they are making it voluntary, for now. But you know how that goes. Where's your government outrage?


I've had a "premise number" for over a decade due to raising sheep and enrolling in the scrapies program

It takes quite a bit to make me "outraged" anymore


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I've had a "premise number" for over a decade due to raising sheep and enrolling in the scrapies program
> 
> *It takes quite a bit to make me "outraged" anymore*



I think that's a big problem with the general populace now a days. People have gotten to used to being told what to do or how to behave and they just "don't care" anymore.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

terri9630 said:


> I think that's a big problem with the general populace now a days. People have gotten to used to being told what to do or how to behave and they just "don't care" anymore.


By the same token, people have been told every action by the Govt is some nefarious act, and then it turns out to be nothing.

30 years ago it was all about "black helicopters and FEMA camps" that never came to pass

Now it's Jade Helm and Chicken Taggers.

I'm not losing sleep over it


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Now it's Jade Helm and Chicken Taggers.


:runforhills:


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

:trollface


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Undocumented poultry have rights... and if they have anchor chicks, well


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## sdharlow (Jan 27, 2012)

Here in North Carolina, our jack----- Governor has signed an Emergency Mandate, saying that everyone with chicks, no matter how many from 1 on up, has to Register them with the state. You are to register your Residence as a small farm. Since they will not also allow me to then change my land use to Agricultural, and pay less taxes, guess what body part the State of NC, Governor McCrory, and Steve Troxler, Ag Commissioner can KISS!!!


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

sdharlow said:


> Here in North Carolina, our jack----- Governor has signed an Emergency Mandate, saying that everyone with chicks, no matter how many from 1 on up, has to Register them with the state. You are to register your Residence as a small farm. Since they will not also allow me to then change my land use to Agricultural, and pay less taxes, guess what body part the State of NC, Governor McCrory, and Steve Troxler, Ag Commissioner can KISS!!!


Big brother might have to kiss a lot of chicken ---- on this one.


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

IMO, this is another slippery slope. It starts out like a good idea - we need to protect poultry from bird flu. But wait, now every bird owner is registered. So what can we do with that information? Maybe now we should require everyone gets a license and pay for it. Maybe we should require that backyard owners vaccinate their birds. Maybe now we should require that backyard owners feed antibiotics to their flocks ..... I know none of this is happening but I think it opens to door to who knows what.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

FarmerKat said:


> IMO, this is another slippery slope. It starts out like a good idea - we need to protect poultry from bird flu. But wait, now every bird owner is registered. So what can we do with that information? Maybe now we should require everyone gets a license and pay for it. Maybe we should require that backyard owners vaccinate their birds. Maybe now we should require that backyard owners feed antibiotics to their flocks ..... I know none of this is happening but I think it opens to door to who knows what.


I'm a little less optimistic than that, maybe. I think it works pretty well as a premeditated plan with no good intentions ever involved. It doesn't help that this is The Pattern every...single...time there "needs" to be more regulation. Create crisis, solve "problem"...Surprise! More control.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

FarmerKat said:


> IMO, this is another slippery slope. It starts out like a good idea - we need to protect poultry from bird flu. But wait, now every bird owner is registered. So what can we do with that information? Maybe now we should require everyone gets a license and pay for it. Maybe we should require that backyard owners vaccinate their birds. Maybe now we should require that backyard owners feed antibiotics to their flocks ..... I know none of this is happening but I think it opens to door to who knows what.


Registering flocks has been "mandatory" in Maryland for at LEAST 6 years, probably more. They've never tried to make any rules, or demand anything from owners. 

I have no qualms about registering my flock.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

There's little to stop them from making more rules whether flocks are registered or not, so there's little point in being paranoid about it all.


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## SouthGAMan (May 5, 2014)

It seems like a slippery slope to me although hopefully nothing will come of it for quite awhile if ever. I think also that the vast majority of all federal agents are good people but the plain truth is they have a job to do and if their superiors start with new regulations then they will have little choice but to comply or to find a new job and someone else will then take their place. I can't help but see possibilities for bad stuff (it was what I did for a long time for a living) whether they are the most likely outcome or not---on both sides of the issue. (edit That all said unless their were severe penalties most people I know wouldn't register anything with the gov't unless they really were forced; myself included.

BTW I think the big issues with factory type farms (and not knocking them because I know more than a few down here in Georgia that have factory type farms) is that in almost all cases the overall health isn't as good as most small free range type animals AND being in such close proximity can be catastrophic as far as spreading of disease.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

SouthGAMan said:


> It seems like a slippery slope to me although hopefully nothing will come of it for quite awhile if ever. I think also that the vast majority of all federal agents are good people but the plain truth is they have a job to do and if their superiors start with new regulations then they will have little choice but to comply or to find a new job and someone else will then take their place. I can't help but see possibilities for bad stuff (it was what I did for a long time for a living) whether they are the most likely outcome or not---on both sides of the issue. (edit That all said unless their were severe penalties most people I know wouldn't register anything with the gov't unless they really were forced; myself included.
> 
> BTW I think the big issues with factory type farms (and not knocking them because I know more than a few down here in Georgia that have factory type farms) is that in almost all cases the overall health isn't as good as most small free range type animals AND being in such close proximity can be catastrophic as far as spreading of disease.


While I'd like to enjoy that myth, the overall health of "factory" house poultry isn't worse as you speculate. However, you are spot on that a disease will run through a poultry barn in short order. That's why they are so tough on bio-security. Free range birds get far more exposure to sunshine, warm breezes and a host of fungus, bacteria and viruses out in Mother Nature's back yard.


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## SouthGAMan (May 5, 2014)

haypoint said:


> While I'd like to enjoy that myth, the overall health of "factory" house poultry isn't worse as you speculate. However, you are spot on that a disease will run through a poultry barn in short order. That's why they are so tough on bio-security. Free range birds get far more exposure to sunshine, warm breezes and a host of fungus, bacteria and viruses out in Mother Nature's back yard.


Maybe health isn't the best choice of words....I will say from my own personal experience they are certainly more fragile. I don't think you have ever had the 'pleasure' of picking up a couple hundred dead chickens in a chicken house before.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

*Attorney claims NC did not follow rulemaking process in chicken registration mandate

Not all chicken keepers are happy about the registration mandate, with a recently formed Facebook group, NO to NC Chicken Registration, calling the requirement &#8220;a unilateral decree from [N.C. Commissioner of Agriculture] Steve Troxler&#8221; and adding, &#8220;Who controls the food supply, controls the people.&#8221;

The group posted a statement from David Williams, who reports to be a licensed N.C. attorney, which questions the legality of the registration mandate claiming that it did not follow North Carolina&#8217;s Administrative Procedure Act. According to the groups&#8217; Facebook page, Williams is volunteering his time &#8220;to aid us in obtaining answers.&#8221;

&#8220;In a self-governing system, we should be very reticent to employ emergency powers that deprive folks of personal liberty and property rights,&#8221; Williams writes in his statement. &#8220;We certainly shouldn&#8217;t ever hide the exercise of those emergency powers behind an opaque wall of bureaucracy, nor require the efforts of an investigatory attorney to uncover it.&#8221;*

http://mountainx.com/blogwire/not-everyone-is-happy-about-registering-their-chickens/


https://www.facebook.com/pages/NO-to-NC-Chicken-Registration/149714152026572


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## mamagoose (Nov 28, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I can understand you skepticism.
> 
> In *my* dealings with NC's state APHIS or NCDA, I have always found them to be friendly and as helpful as possible.
> 
> It should be more obvious in a few days how well they intend to enforce this, since there will likely be news announcements once the registration link is up and running


 Haven't dealt with state dept of ag in a long while, since bringing across a goat we didn't know didn't have the right paperwork --a simple quarantine, not a problem, but that's not the world we live in today. But I did say "no" to a government gun/badge employed by a corporation and was arrested (for exercising my First Amendment), lied about, had a swat team descend on our home to arrest me for the "sentence" after a jury believed the liar and I spent 6 months locked up. That started 6 years ago and I'm still fighting the lies that started it all now in federal court. The truth rarely means anything in this country anymore, that I'm sure of. If they show up here, I will tell them to prove my birds are a problem, or leave, but I know the result...the truth doesn't matter. I'm looking for solutions to protect my most valuable ones. Semper Fi


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

mamagoose said:


> Haven't dealt with state dept of ag in a long while, since bringing across a goat we didn't know didn't have the right paperwork --a simple quarantine, not a problem, but that's not the world we live in today. But I did say "no" to a government gun/badge employed by a corporation and was arrested (for exercising my First Amendment), lied about, had a swat team descend on our home to arrest me for the "sentence" after a jury believed the liar and I spent 6 months locked up. That started 6 years ago and I'm still fighting the lies that started it all now in federal court. The truth rarely means anything in this country anymore, that I'm sure of. If they show up here, I will tell them to prove my birds are a problem, or leave, but I know the result...the truth doesn't matter. I'm looking for solutions to protect my most valuable ones. Semper Fi


 Well that's quite a story. Some day, when I've got more time, I'd like to hear more of your version and what the liar said happened.

But all that aside, there are several steps you can take to better protect your most valuable birds. However, the High Pathogen Avian Influenza experts willing to advise you on protecting your birds work for the government, state, federal and universities.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)




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## mamagoose (Nov 28, 2003)

haypoint said:


> Well that's quite a story. Some day, when I've got more time, I'd like to hear more of your version and what the liar said happened.
> 
> But all that aside, there are several steps you can take to better protect your most valuable birds. However, the High Pathogen Avian Influenza experts willing to advise you on protecting your birds work for the government, state, federal and universities.


 Do you have a particular link? Right now, most of my breeders are in small open air barn in cages. They have to be medicated for coccidiosis, regardless of what else I try and rodents can get in. Predators are a pretty big problem around here, so I always expect to find a free-ranger missing once in awhile. We have some older breeders in a chicken tractor and I've never had to give them medicated feed, but it has nothing over the wire. It doesn't look like I'll be able to get a new roo for my Partridge Wyandotte beauties in that pen for awhile now, but my chocolate Marans project is probably kind of rare. I have a chocolate pullet and a khaki pullet (with decent feathered legs) out of my nice blue Marans and a chocolate Orpington roo (who got snatched because I didn't have him penned). They should be ready to breed to a copper Marans roo this fall. I'm hoping their eggs will have some chocolate to them, but the next generation should be even better. I have visions of chocolate-laying chocolate hens with a red birchen-necked chocolate roo to tend to them. You can only imagine how much $ I have in getting this far with the project. I'm surprised at how pretty the khaki bird is. Oh, and the chicken calculator that said all black birds would be roos is not correct. I have 2 that definitely look black. Perhaps it's a chocolate covered black, I don't know. I plan to turn them out on free-range soon, though.

I can see how any of these birds are susceptible, I just don't want my birds killed simply because a migratory bird was found dead down the road. I would be willing to figure out a backup plan in case a virus was determined near enough to be an issue. I assume that would involve some pretty big tarps?

On the other, I'm hoping to post the docs one day online that proves I was framed, etc., but I have to be careful about compromising all our efforts we've endured to get the new evidence against him, as the timing needs to be right. A book would be nice to summarize it all, but his actual contradictory testimony speaks for itself. You or I would be charged for perjury and prosecuted in a heartbeat based on testimony like that, but the sheriff and prosecutor refuses to even look at any of it. My federal habeas petition with new evidence is about 1750 pages. (We went through a civil rights trial in January, so we were able to get additional evidence that he's a liar.) Once my habeas gets through (where a judge actually upholds the Constitution), maybe the FBI will investigate and finally protect people from him.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Iowa State University cancels classes at campus farm with rare chickens to avert bird flu risk
Associated Press FoxBusiness.com August 25, 2015

DES MOINES, Iowa - To protect a flock of rare chickens from the possibility of getting the bird flu, Iowa State University said Monday it has canceled classes for about 500 students at its poultry teaching and research farm.
Instead professors will rely on videos to teach the students about poultry nutrition, reproduction, anatomy and physiology.
The Department of Animal Science is minimizing traffic to the poultry farm on 11 acres 3 miles south of the main Iowa State campus in Ames amid concern the bird flu virus may return when wild birds, which carry the disease, start migrating this fall.

Six courses a year are typically taught at the farm, established in 1963. The farm has meat chickens and egg layers in addition to turkeys and other birds.

Some of the chickens have the world's oldest inbred research genetic lines, with the oldest dating back to 1925. Some originate from the 1950s, with genetics from Egypt and Spain.

AND:

National Chicken Council Identifies Biosecurity Principles
SoutheastAgNet.com

August 25, 2015 From the National Chicken Council:



WASHINGTON, D.C. - In preparation for the potential re-emergence of highly pathogenic avian influenza (HPAI) in the fall as wild birds begin to migrate south from Canada, the National Chicken Council (NCC) has identified the top biosecurity principles for broiler and broiler-breeder producers.

Biosecurity is the poultry industry's first line of defense to all avian diseases, including HPAI. The following biosecurity measures have been identified by NCC, members of the NCC biosecurity working group, veterinarians and avian health experts as the most important to prevent disease spread and promote flock health:

* Limiting visitors on the farm and minimizing foot traffic;

* Avoiding contact with wild and domestic fowl;

* Avoiding the sharing of farm equipment;

* Having a clean and functioning footbath at each entrance to the broiler house;

* Ensuring that all visitors or personnel have disinfected or new footwear before entering a house or facility;

* Making sure feed and water sources are covered and free of contaminants, limiting the attraction of wild fowl and pests;

* Having official signage clearly stating the farm is a biosecure zone and any unauthorized entry is strictly prohibited;

* Employing effective pest and wild bird management practices; and

* Adequately training farmers, farm and company personal in biosecurity and disease prevention.

"Rigorous implementation of biosecurity principles will be essential to preventing disease introduction onto broiler chicken operations," said NCC President Mike Brown. "I know each industry has been preparing similarly. By maintaining this strong collaboration and sharing of lessons learned, I am confident we will all be in a much better place this year."

Full text:

http://southeastagnet.com/2015/08/25/national-chicken-council-identifies-biosecurity-principles/


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## mamagoose (Nov 28, 2003)

Thanks for that.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Info from Michigan's Department of Ag: "High pathogenicity avian influenza (HPAI) has wreaked havoc with the poultry industry and become the largest animal disease outbreak in U.S. history. The virus has been confirmed in wild, captive, commercial and backyard birds in 21 states and the Canadian provinces of British Columbia and Ontario, ultimately affecting almost 50 million birds. In Michigan, we have found this strain (H5N2) of HPAI in wild geese in Southeastern Michigan; however there have been no detections in our domestic poultry flocks. The last case of HPAI was documented in June. Across the nation, 40 percent of producers have restocked their facilities. Both industry and government partners are in intense state of preparation as we anticipate the possibility HPAI will return this fall when wild birds migrate south. During this season we want to remind veterinarians to talk to their bird owning clients, especially those with backyard chickens or turkeys, and stress the importance of biosecurity. Veterinarians should advise all poultry owners to restrict access to their flock; keep all other poultry, people and wild birds away; clean and disinfect equipment regularly and don&#8217;t share equipment with other flock owners. Birds should receive well water or municipal water, not surface water. Surface water could be contaminated by bird droppings from migrating waterfowl potentially infected with avian influenza. Poultry feed should be stored to prevent exposure to wild birds or rodents as both wild birds and rodents can spread disease. It is best if owners do not add birds to their flock and if they must, isolate new birds for at least 30 days before introducing them into the flock. Biosecurity is a priority for all of Michigan&#8217;s poultry farms. It is important that proper practices be used regardless of the number of birds on a farm or the type of birds. Meanwhile, if you suspect that birds have avian influenza, you can reach our office at 800-292-3939 or 517-373-0440 (after hour emergencies only)."


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Avian Influenza is small potatoes, what they need to be worrying about is figuring out a way to prop up the sky, (it's falling).
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/05/19/avian-flu-chicken-cafos.aspx


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> Avian Influenza is small potatoes, what they need to be worrying about is figuring out a way to prop up the sky, (it's falling).
> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/05/19/avian-flu-chicken-cafos.aspx


I pity those that have been taken in my the mercola virus. It seems to spread throughout the internet, rendering victims unable to sort out the truth from the tide of misinformation and myths.
GMO is bad, glyphosate is in feed and food, natural is bacteria free, microbes keep us thin, gluten is bad, pasteurization kills the vitamins and all sorts of other nonsense. Oh, almost forgot, CAFO cause the sky to fall and the loss of 50,000,000 chickens and turkeys is small potatoes.:smack
Read this to better understand the two main strains of Avian Influenza that Dr. Mercola talks about: http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2015/05/eastward-jump-h5n8-surfaces-indiana


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Mercola is a doctor. Maybe not "peer approved". Neither was Galileo. Avian Influenza is a force of nature, controlling it is futile. It will run it's course. Maybe people should eat pork or beef or peanut butter if they can't get CAFO raised poultry. My guess is that somebody somewhere will be able to raise poultry, depending on the levels of biosecurity they are willing to adhere to, regardless of government grandstanding. Really-in the end- is just about more control, and not stopping the spread of a disease that spreads with birds that migrate thousands of miles.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> Mercola is a doctor. Maybe not "peer approved". Neither was Galileo. Avian Influenza is a force of nature, controlling it is futile. It will run it's course. Maybe people should eat pork or beef or peanut butter if they can't get CAFO raised poultry. My guess is that somebody somewhere will be able to raise poultry, depending on the levels of biosecurity they are willing to adhere to, regardless of government grandstanding. Really-in the end- is just about more control, and not stopping the spread of a disease that spreads with birds that migrate thousands of miles.


Small Pox was a force of nature, too. Government grandstanding? I suppose Mercola can't get anything peer reviewed due to some world wide government control of every doctor?

Government grandstanding? What do you imagine would have happened without quarantining infected flocks and curtailment of open markets? You don't have to imagine, just check out what happened in Asia without anyone paying attention, a decade ago.


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

haypoint said:


> I pity those that have been taken in my the mercola virus. It seems to spread throughout the internet, rendering victims unable to sort out the truth from the tide of misinformation and myths.


Interesting website. I found this grand accomplishment by the good doctor:

_"I have also been a computer hobbyist since 1985, with an interest in the Internet that dates back to the early &#8216;90s."_

Gosh! How can you doubt someone who sets the bar so high?


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Smallpox, and Asian bird flu outbreaks? Seriously? You are quite delusional. Quit mistaking the effects of modern hygiene and amenities for the success of government programs. Last time I checked, there is a big difference between 3 jillion people living in third world conditions with open air poultry markets and a 4-H poultry show.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/ Not saying I'm anti-vaccine, but given the choice between soap, water, basic knowledge of microbes and doctors with magical potions, I would pick the first three.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> Smallpox, and Asian bird flu outbreaks? Seriously? You are quite delusional. Quit mistaking the effects of modern hygiene and amenities for the success of government programs. Last time I checked, there is a big difference between 3 jillion people living in third world conditions with open air poultry markets and a 4-H poultry show.


You wrote that Avian Influenza was a force of nature, like we are suppose to just let it run its course. Small Pox was also a force of nature, do you think we should have let it run its course, too? 

Are you now saying we can eliminate viruses by washing our hands?
I don't have a working knowledge of every government program, but I do know that when USDA set out to rid farms of the awful pig disease, psudorabies, it was largely successful and hog farmers and consumers have reaped the benefits of that work. 

Yup, there are differences between a live poultry market in China and a 4H show in your hometown. But, you cannot ignore the similarities in the spreading of pathogens. 

"Stay home if you are sick." and "Classes are closed because there is so much flu going around." were true a hundred years ago and they are wise today. Quarantining is a sound scientific disease control method.

I prefer small government. But I cannot ignore the fact that global research, testing of tens of thousands of wild birds at the far reaches of their migratory paths, testing of hundreds of thousands of domestic birds and even the quarantines and disposal of millions of birds is well beyond the individual farmer.

Recently, because the government refused to get serious and impose movement restrictions of ash firewood, ash lumber and ash logs, and all the foolish people that insisted in transporting it all over, the Emerald Ash Beetle was able to spread, killing most of the trees we depend on to make ash furniture and baseball bats. But you prefer freedom over sound scientific controls.

If you want to call names, PM me.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Emerald ash borer isn't as bad as it's cracked up to be. It will run it's course, too.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

barnbilder said:


> Emerald ash borer isn't as bad as it's cracked up to be. It will run it's course, too.


Yes, it will run its course when all the Ash has been wiped out and there's nowhere else for the borers to go.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Emerald Ash Borer came through here. We lost maybe five percent of the ash trees. Some of them needed to die anyway. Gypsy moth, Ash borer, they all run their course. Chestnut Blight was one of the worst, but we still have American Chestnuts on the place. These diseases, just like AI, don't kill all of their victims. You need government brain-washed wack-jobs to kill ALL of the victims of a disease outbreak.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

To gently guide us back to the topic, rest assured HPAI outbreaks will be handled swiftly, far faster and more efficiently than last spring. You have three basic choices. Butcher as many of your poultry as you can spare, ahead of the quarantine. Move your chickens to the basement and deny you have poultry. Let the Government Agents pry your cold dead fingers from your flock.

I doubt most Americans will back up the backyard flock owner if the government's plan involves eradicating every chicken in the area to prevent driving up the cost of Easter Eggs next spring.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

There are more options. I would suggest joining the Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund group, that way you can get help making reparations after your 4th amendment rights have been violated. Rare heritage breeds will have more clout in these instances. 


Basically, it's going to shake down like this. Big, foreign owned chicken factory is going to come up with the disease, either through not paying enough for qualified personnel or maybe just to show a loss for tax reasons. Then, they will send the government goons out to annihilate all of the competition in a hundred mile radius. Meanwhile, they will do nothing about the wildlife laws and regulations that they are rabidly enforcing that contribute to the problem.

If it comes down to "registering" flocks, registering multiple locations that don't have any chickens could tie up lots of resources. Usually, if you feign compliance and reverence, the people who have the right set of mental deficiencies to work for a thuggish government agency are pretty easily fooled. This would mean you could put your worn out layers in a prominent pen, and keep your good chickens in a cave to keep them out of the camp. "Oh thank you great leader, for saving us. Our chickens could have killed US." Might be a good time to develop some alternate feeding strategies, they might stake out the feed mills.


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

Not only is there the avian flu but there is also a strain of salmonella called salmonella enteritidis or SE that can be spread by wild birds and mice or other farm animals such as cats and dogs and by contaminated footwear. This strain is also extra bad because it spreads through the egg, and birds hatched from them will produce salmonella contaminated eggs, making soft cooked eggs or food using uncooked eggs unsafe. 
Here in Alberta hundreds of flocks were advised to be culled because of a hatchery that got their supply of hatching eggs from the US carrying this strain. 
I have talked to the provincial vet, and to the local health inspector and all of us who bought from the hatchery this spring are already in their data bases


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

Sanza said:


> Not only is there the avian flu but there is also a strain of salmonella called salmonella enteritidis or SE that can be spread by wild birds and mice or other farm animals such as cats and dogs and by contaminated footwear. This strain is also extra bad because it spreads through the egg, and birds hatched from them will produce salmonella contaminated eggs, making soft cooked eggs or food using uncooked eggs unsafe.
> Here in Alberta hundreds of flocks were advised to be culled because of a hatchery that got their supply of hatching eggs from the US carrying this strain.
> I have talked to the provincial vet, and to the local health inspector and all of us who bought from the hatchery this spring are already in their data bases


I tried to google it but could not find anything about a specific hatchery sending salmonella contaminated hatching eggs. I presume it would apply to chicks as well if they came from said hatchery. Can you share which hatchery it is?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I couldn't find anything about it, either.
Just some report from 5 years ago. Likely some trumped up government sponsored big business funded attack on backyard poultry in an attempt to take our freedom to raise chickens. I don't know why all those government animal scientists are running around testing stuff. If it kills you, you stop eating it, simple. Right, barnbuilder?
http://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/enteritidis/


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Let the Government Agents pry your cold dead fingers from your flock.


Man, I always hate it when they do that...pry my cold dead fingers from something. 

But I guess at least it's good to have a "cause".

:hobbyhors

__________________________________________________

_"Your animals and God knows what else were handled!"_


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

Targe said:


> Man, I always hate it when they do that...pry my cold dead fingers from something.
> 
> But I guess at least it's good to have a "cause".
> 
> ...



I'm gonna take a guess that you don't have permission from the poster to use a quote in your sig line. If you put it in quotes, because it is a quote, then you should credit the author.

Since you are clearly attempting to hurt another member here because your views differ drastically, you should be ashamed.

And you misquoted to boot.. you cut off a portion that you wanted from within a sentence and marked it with an exclamation point due to your own excitement. There was none in the original post you are making fun of.

And don't even try to claim you had no idea. We all saw it all, and we know.

Putting that in your sig line negates any helpful posts you might possibly make in the forum. It abruptly puts off a lot of contributors here and causes your comments to be passed over due to your mocking that is not appreciated.


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## sonofthunder (Apr 10, 2014)

One of my Sons and I attended what was billed and advertised as a Backyard Poultry workshop two weeks ago at our local CoOpExt. The hour and a half seminar was 99% on the commercial poultry industry with exactly 5 minutes devoted to the backyard grower. 

His whole lecture and power point presentation was about the Bird flu and how the State of Georgia is leading the world in prevention and eradication. He told us in no uncertain terms that IF they(GaAg or USDA) are called to a farm to do a well check on just one bird and IF that bird tests positive for the Flu, "your entire farm will be quarantined strictly. Your entire flock of poultry will be immediately killed, that includes, chickens, turkey, quail, ducks/geese anything with feathers." The entire area out to 6 miles will also be quarantined and ALL poultry will be inspected and IF just one of those birds tests positive, then that same 6 mile radius will be expanded starting with the new positive outward for another 6 miles." 

He said that the Ga Dept of Ag in conjunction the USDA now has a Flu Strike Team and they will Respond immediately to any test finding of positive...That's kind of scary when one thinks about it.... He said that since the first reporting of Avian flu was reported back in November of last year 2015 55 million birds have been put down. That's just in the US


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

partndn said:


> I'm gonna take a guess that you don't have permission from the poster to use a quote in your sig line. If you put it in quotes, because it is a quote, then you should credit the author.
> 
> Since you are clearly attempting to hurt another member here because your views differ drastically, you should be ashamed.
> 
> ...


You're probably right, that his signature line was put up meant to be some kind of dig, or whatever. Hard to know how some folks minds work, ya know.

Of course, there's that other phrase that comes to mind. The one about imitation being a form of flattery. I find it hilarious that someone could even be bothered to try and find a way to quote, err, misquote something I wrote months ago, when he barely knows me and has barely ever communicated on here on threads with me, and has never pm'd me.

My post was from July 11th, page 2 of the "someone tagged my chicken!!" thread in the poultry forum. That post was not even directed at targe to begin with.

For reference, what I said was,

"To the OP. I have no idea if the tagged chicken is a simple prank or a govt test marking or something in between.

But, you have my full sympathy and absolute support for your concern.

Regardless of what happened or whether you ever get to the bottom of it, your property was trespassed, your animals and God knows what else were handled and disturbed and it is a violating thing to experience."

Adding it to his signature line, does sort of come off as strange behavior, to say the least. Especially, when you consider, he basically tried to belittle me or shame me or whatever it was on that thread. I don't know what to call it, cause it didn't stick. Seems, if he considers himself so much more (fill-in-the blank) than myself or others here, he ought to be able to come up with a more distinguished person to quote, that he would feel folks should take the time to read.

I see he hasn't bothered to hop on here and respond to you calling him out on it, yet. Interesting.....well, not that interesting. But, I can't think of anything nicer to call it, lol.

Alright, the few minutes, I allotted to wasting on this are up. Gotta get back to watching dr. who with my family, and chatting with some other great folks on here!

Sonothunder,

Thanks so much for sharing what you heard about the 6 mile radius parameters the USDA is looking at using in Georgia. Really appreciated being able to hear that. Hope it doesn't destroy all our flocks.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

When discussing how back yard flocks will be handled in the event of a HPAI, just see how they handle commercial flocks. 
Infected birds are virus factories. The longer they live, the more virus they produce. Killing them quickly limits virus production. 

Michigan has been lucky to have avoided HPAI in flocks. But it is well known that when a farm gets a reportable disease, a circle is set up and livestock within that circle are tested. As an example, a couple years ago, a 750 cow family owned dairy sent a cow to slaughter that was found by a USDA meat inspector to have TB. Using the RFID ear tag they traced it back to their farm, tested their cattle, tracked down the calves from the previous two years, set up a circle and tested cattle and shot 200 wild deer, trapped and tested all sorts of wildlife. The infected cattle were incinerated and the rest slaughtered.
A few months ago, wild geese were stumbling around a picnic area, tested positive for HPAI. 200 geese from that area were killed and tested. Only a few were positive.

Apparently, commercial poultry operations that had outbreaks, discovered breaks in their bio-security plans.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

I see some are still more concerned with complaining about other's posts than commenting on the actual topic.


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

partndn said:


> gre: I'm gonna take a guess that you don't have permission from the poster to use a quote in your sig line. If you put it in quotes, because it is a quote, then you should credit the author.
> 
> And you misquoted to boot... :badmood:


How can a "misquote" be a quote -? 

And since it's not a quote, how can I "credit the author" for a quote that's not a quote since if it's not a quote then there's no author of the quote to credit-? 

Let me put it another way by channeling the ghost of Johnny Cochran: _"If it wasn't wrote, then it's not a quote!"_ :sing:

It's just a sentence that I find to be amusing and it pleases me to post it. If you don't like it, then don't read it. I mean, it's not like I read your posts and go out of my way to attack you. 

Actually, it's not like I usually even bother to read your posts at all. 
____________________________________________

_"Your animals and God knows what else were handled!"_


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

:zzz:
____________________________________________

_"Your animals and God knows what else were handled!"_


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

This is a great thread! It's become my second favorite thread! 

:banana:
____________________________________________
_
"Your animals and God knows what else were handled!" _


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I can't help but chuckle when I think about my posts to the Poultry section, several years ago, about Bird Flu that got me booted off the Poultry Section. Seems the Moderator didn't want to hear about the backyard flocks in Asia that were spreading the flu and killing a few people. Didn't fit the narrative that big poultry is the evil disease spreader and backyard poultry is all clean, happy disease free birds.
I kept posting news articles that showed the disease was spreading from small flock to small market to humans, etc. So, I got blocked for several years.
All the government's research and warnings were seen as much hype about nothing. Now that it has become the most costly animal disease outbreak in our history, people are asking why the government didn't do more, more warnings, more surveillance, more flu research, etc.
Well, based on criticism of this past event, USDA is geared up to act fast if there is a fall outbreak.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Ridicule is juvenile and small minded. This is getting pretty pathetic.


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

And ganging up and piling on is what adults do -?

I often try to respond to unprovoked hostility with humor; it's my version of a kinder, gentler me shining forth with a thousand points of light.
:happy:
____________________________________________

_"Your animals and God knows what else were handled!" _


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

haypoint said:


> I can't help but chuckle when I think about my posts to the Poultry section, several years ago, about Bird Flu that got me booted off the Poultry Section. Seems the Moderator didn't want to hear about the backyard flocks in Asia that were spreading the flu and killing a few people. Didn't fit the narrative that big poultry is the evil disease spreader and backyard poultry is all clean, happy disease free birds.
> I kept posting news articles that showed the disease was spreading from small flock to small market to humans, etc. So, I got blocked for several years.
> All the government's research and warnings were seen as much hype about nothing. Now that it has become the most costly animal disease outbreak in our history, people are asking why the government didn't do more, more warnings, more surveillance, more flu research, etc.
> Well, based on criticism of this past event, USDA is geared up to act fast if there is a fall outbreak.


Good points! Although I'm no fan of Big Brother meddling in all my business, a lot of the arguments to the effect that "big government/big corporate is always wrong and the little guy is always right" just don't hold water. 

Sort of like the other day when someone criticized me for having bought a hammer at WalMart. _"Made in China just like everything else in WalMart!" _he sneered. 

I pointed out to him that yeah well, ALL Black and Decker hammers are made in China, whether you buy it at WalMart or at MOM AND POP'S COUNTRY STORE.

But back to the subject...I don't know what the answer is for those of us who have small (family, hobby, homestead, etc.) farms. It would sure suck if the chicken farm 5&1/2 miles down the road got a bird flu case and now your farm is in the quarantine zone and "they" want to inspect and maybe euthanize your chickens. Guess it pays to keep your mouth shut about having chickens, take down the "FARM EGGS FOR SALE THIS WAY" sign.

But if there IS an outbreak, I don't think I would even WANT to go to livestock auction and risk bringing home a contagion on my boots much less bringing home a chicken from someone's else farm which might very well mean bringing home their problem. I mean, you can do the shoe disinfectant thing all you want...but there's still risk. Biosecurity via temporarily shutting down venues where illness/infection can be transmitted sounds like a good idea to me in the event of an outbreak. Like it or not, the government does have a lot of control over commerce including agribusiness.

I mean, I guess if someone is determined, there's always Craigslist. 
____________________________________________

_"Your animals and God knows what else were handled!"_


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Yes, "they" will want to test and if they have HPAI, they will be dying and "they" will want to kill them all and sanitize the area.
But look at it the other way. Let's say you are operating a high tech million broiler factory with all the safeguards in place and some dude 4 miles away is watering his chickens in a pond with migratory ducks. HPAI hits this backyard flock and suddenly the big operation is quarantined. He starts losing thousands of dollars because of someone's carelessness.

Hiding poultry in an outbreak area permits the disease to grow and spread. Sort of careless and selfish, don't you think?


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

FarmerKat said:


> I tried to google it but could not find anything about a specific hatchery sending salmonella contaminated hatching eggs. I presume it would apply to chicks as well if they came from said hatchery. Can you share which hatchery it is?


Google Rochester hatchery or salmonella outbreaks. It happened, but not much was said about it, but this strain is spread through the eggs and the hatchery here claimed they got the eggs from a hatchery in the states.....no names were given. It was hushed up and when people affected by it tried to get news coverage about the hatchery selling contaminated poultry no TV station would do it. There is something strange about the whole thing, (almost like a gag order) especially when this hatchery here shipped salmonella infected chicks to all 4 western provinces.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I have to guess that when a hatchery gets salmonella in their flock, sends out infected eggs/chicks, it is a pretty straight forward process to trace where the "product" went and test and recall birds. Not much chance of it spreading from farm to farm like HPAI. 

A few years back there were a few egg factories that had salmonella in their eggs in the states. Investigators discovered filthy conditions, open doors for plenty of vermin/wildlife to enter. Really poor bio-security.


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

Sanza said:


> Google Rochester hatchery or salmonella outbreaks. It happened, but not much was said about it, but this strain is spread through the eggs and the hatchery here claimed they got the eggs from a hatchery in the states.....no names were given. It was hushed up and when people affected by it tried to get news coverage about the hatchery selling contaminated poultry no TV station would do it. There is something strange about the whole thing, (almost like a gag order) especially when this hatchery here shipped salmonella infected chicks to all 4 western provinces.


Thanks. I was able to find the information with the extra details. That is interesting/strange that they just say they got it from infected eggs but did not disclose where the eggs came from. You would think that it should be traced to clean up the source.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

FarmerKat said:


> Thanks. I was able to find the information with the extra details. That is interesting/strange that they just say they got it from infected eggs but did not disclose where the eggs came from. You would think that it should be traced to clean up the source.


I agree. Seems likely they did trace it back and clean it up/kill birds. 
I talked with a big commercial broiler operator last week. He has contracts to buy fertile eggs for 2019. Anything major between now and then and he'd be out of business.

In Michigan, when there have been cattle herds infected with TB, the owners names are never public. The news will say it is the 64th herd and what county, the circle that is drawn around the herd is known, but no point in naming names. I'd guess it is the same way with poultry. Except, when you have 5 million hens die, everyone in the county knows who's hens they were.


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## GREEN_ALIEN (Oct 17, 2004)

FarmerKat said:


> I tried to google it but could not find anything about a specific hatchery sending salmonella contaminated hatching eggs. I presume it would apply to chicks as well if they came from said hatchery. Can you share which hatchery it is?


Here is a google search...


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

GREEN_ALIEN said:


> Here is a google search...


Thanks, I was able to find it after sanza provided the hatchery name. 

Since it happened in Canada, it may have been buried in google search when I was searching just for salmonella outbreak.


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

haypoint said:


> But look at it the other way. Let's say you are operating a high tech million broiler factory with all the safeguards in place and some dude 4 miles away is watering his chickens in a pond with migratory ducks. HPAI hits this backyard flock and suddenly the big operation is quarantined. He starts losing thousands of dollars because of someone's carelessness.
> 
> Hiding poultry in an outbreak area permits the disease to grow and spread. Sort of careless and selfish, don't you think?


Oh I agree. My post was more than a little tongue in cheek since I suspect that many of the folks posting here want to go the route of the Adams Family as in "do what they want, say what they want" and nobody is supposed to call them on it. In other words, it doesn't sound like they plan on hunkering in their bunker but rather they want to continue to exercise their 'right' to sell chickens and other products even if there's a pandemic Avian flu and ducks are dropping out of the sky in their front yard.

That said, I don't know how likely is the scenario of a small scale/backyard chicken flock being watered in a pond, especially of a size to attract migratory waterfowl. It is possible of course but I'm more worried about a continuation of poultry sales that could lead to contagions being spread near and far. I mean, I don't always disinfect my boots if I just pop into TSC and for all I know, the last guy who checked out at the register might have tracked in all kinds of unsavory...um..."stuff".

__________________________________________________

_"Your animals and God knows what else were handled!"_


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

If you spend millions of dollars on a high tech facility for producing livestock or farming, then you deserve to loose your tail, because you are an idiot. If you farm long enough, it's not a matter of "if" something beyond your control hands your pants to you, it's a matter of when. Smart farmers diversify, a few hens, sheep, a few cows, some pigs. People who practice monoculture will always fail, because of the laws of nature, no matter how much money they convince the government to spend trying to save them.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> If you spend millions of dollars on a high tech facility for producing livestock or farming, then you deserve to loose your tail, because you are an idiot. If you farm long enough, it's not a matter of "if" something beyond your control hands your pants to you, it's a matter of when. Smart farmers diversify, a few hens, sheep, a few cows, some pigs. People who practice monoculture will always fail, because of the laws of nature, no matter how much money they convince the government to spend trying to save them.


I love the dream you present. But, long ago I realized it is just a dream that many of us share as we pursue our hobby.

Look around. Everywhere you look, those 80 acre farms have changed. The house exists, the barn might still be there. But the productive, income producing diversified farm is mostly gone. The land has been sold. The deal is done. The remaining buildings on 2 or 3 acres isn't going back into production. The crop ground has been sold to those with the skills and tools to produce huge crops with far less soil erosion , often times with less toxic chemical from what grandpa used. You don't have to like it. Heck, you don't even have to admit it. 

I know no large farmer that is practicing monoculture.

Disasters strike. The dust bowl hit everyone. The potato virus starved millions of Irish, mostly small farms. 

the "idiots" that invest in crop systems and livestock production are providing the least costly food in the history of mankind. That leaves income that can be spent on cars, houses, computers and all the other luxuries you enjoy.

Better hope their investments continue to pay off. Because a food shortage or a steep jump in food costs with have the 92% of our population that are city dwelling combing over your garden like locus.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

barnbilder said:


> If you spend millions of dollars on a high tech facility for producing livestock or farming, then you deserve to loose your tail, because you are an idiot. If you farm long enough, it's not a matter of "if" something beyond your control hands your pants to you, it's a matter of when. Smart farmers diversify, a few hens, sheep, a few cows, some pigs. People who practice monoculture will always fail, because of the laws of nature, no matter how much money they convince the government to spend trying to save them.


You can't be serious. How many of your Old MacDonald so-called diversified farmers do you know who are millionaires? When the evil corporate boogieman monocultures get hit with a setback, sure they lose a lot of money, but they still have a lot of money and they bounce right back every time. In no way do they fail. The small homesteader on the other hand seldom is fully successful from an economic standpoint in the first place. Few of us can produce all of our food as cheaply as we can buy it. Sure, we know "where it came from" and "how it was raised", but if you use any commercial feeds you don't really know as much or are as different from commercial farmers as you like to think. Plus, we also continue to rely on commercial interests for a lot of the genetics that we use, especially in livestock, if we want to have any hope of not losing way too much money on raising our food. The sustainability dream of small farming is also a myth. Very few are able to practice it truly.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I don't think it is the monoculture: I think it is just Mother Nature at work. Illnesses travel, monoculture or not.

For instance, about a year or so ago I lost my rooster and my broody hen to an illness, even though they were in a run. And since I raise eggs for my own family table that was 1/3 of my flock. The illness must have been brought by little birds that ate out of their supper dish, though I have never seen the little birds in the run. Perhaps they pooped in passing? The top of the run is just wire.

So, this year I bought a few replacement chicks from a local hatchery. I got a rooster in the mix and this breed can go broody, so hopefully I will again have a self sustaining flock. 

Not using monoculture is no guarantee that a person will not be hit hard. 2 birds is not usually a problem but they WERE 1/3 of my flock, and if I had been selling eggs I would have taken a very significant loss!


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

If you put a large number of animals in a small space and prop them up with chemicals to make it work, they are very susceptible to things that would normally be inconsequential. Take city people getting sick from salmonella for instance.

Not enough land for holistic, synergistic food production? Maybe if we freed up some of the land that is currently being used for monoculture ethanol production that would not be the case. In most parts of the country there are still some pretty huge tracts of land, most of the owners are absentee. There are not enough jobs in the area for anyone to be able to live there. They still own the land but live in the city. Get a rent check from either the few stubborn farmers that are hanging on or the corporate entities that compete with those individuals. So you have a guy planting corn for miles and miles and buying all of his groceries at the store, because he doesn't have time to even get in a garden, because he has a FSA loan to pay off and the subsidies for planting corn are the only thing that can make it even pencil out.

Instead of people living on twenty farms farming it themselves, around here we have one guy running cow calf on twenty farms and nineteen people driving two hours to work. They hang on to the place so they can deer hunt, ride atvs or whatever, but rent it out to only a handful of people who are either brave or crazy enough to farm. 

The food industry, and it's cheap food, hang by a precarious thread. Just a few people doing the pencil work and deciding to cash in their chips (which happens to farmers around here very frequently with a funeral afterwards) and the whole thing comes crashing down. 

Relying on huge corporations to fight nature and raise food in cheaper and increasingly more un-natural ways is not the answer. Relying on extension agents to subject farmers to their incessant guinea pig experiments (alternate feed=mad cow) is not the answer. Relying on government programs, be they subsidies or mass chicken extermination to protect special interests, is not the answer. Maybe if people ate healthy food instead of cheap food, superbugs like the dreaded avian influenza, which has been around for thousands of years, wouldn't be so scary. If the government would stay out of the affairs of farmers, farmers could meet their local demands, make a living, provide jobs, and everyone would benefit. 

Maybe a food crisis would be good, maybe farmers (at least the well armed ones) could make a living wage in this country without being tied to a government loan or subsidy or have to contract with a megacorporation. But as long as I can raise all of my own food and have the appropriate fortifications to protect it from ravaging hordes, I could care less if Tyson looses a few million chickens.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

The layer operations in Michigan aren't feeding chemicals to their hens.
Avian Influenza isn't caused by human's poor eating habits.
I suggest you learn about influenza, all the H numbers and N numbers and its evolution so you don't miss-speak about a new/emerging flu as if it has been around before.
Ask the owners and workers at the places effected with HPAI if they think the government should stay out of their business, leave their Veterinarians, laboratories and hundreds of trained staff out of their business.
Not sure is we'd ever go back to the old ways of farming, plowing and cultivating cost us millions of tons of top soil each year that we now can save with no-till.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

The largest crop in this country is smothered in dangerous chemicals, irrigated freely, basically unregulated, and not eaten. It's no wonder the hens are dying if they aren't getting chemicals, they could probably use some supplements. Lots of things are "chemicals". Can you say for certain that this specific "strain du jour" of avian influenza hasn't been around before? Maybe it killed the dinosaurs. That would play into your hysteria mongering narrative quite well.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> The largest crop in this country is smothered in dangerous chemicals, irrigated freely, basically unregulated, and not eaten. It's no wonder the hens are dying if they aren't getting chemicals, they could probably use some supplements. Lots of things are "chemicals". Can you say for certain that this specific "strain du jour" of avian influenza hasn't been around before? Maybe it killed the dinosaurs. That would play into your hysteria mongering narrative quite well.


1. Corn, the largest crop is seldom sprayed with anything besides glyphosate.
2. When a corn field is sprayed to kill the weeds, glyphosate is used in tiny amounts.
3. Glyphosate is far from dangerous and has a low toxicity level.
4. Very few corn acres are irrigated in this country.
5. Not sure what regulations you expect on growing corn. The seed is tightly regulated, the spraying equipment is regulated, the storage of chemicals is tightly regulated, preservation of streams and groundwater is regulated
. 6. Much of the corn crop is made into fuel to reduce emissions and save the planet.
7. Much of the corn crop is exported.
8. Much of the corn crop is made into animal feed.
9. A small amount of the corn crop goes into human feed.
10. Layers at facilities in Michigan are fed feed made fresh daily and it contains no antibiotics, hormones or artificial food coloring.
11. Nutritionists at these facilities insure that the chicken feed has the proper protein, starch, vitamins and minerals, without the floor sweepings associated with small town feed mills.
12. This current strain of HPAI has not been seen since scientists have been able to identify strains.
13. The HPAI outbreak of this Spring is this country's largest livestock disaster ever. The mongering is already in place, I see no need to add to it.


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> Not enough land for holistic, synergistic food production? Maybe if we freed up some of the land that is currently being used for monoculture ethanol production that would not be the case. In most parts of the country there are still some pretty huge tracts of land, most of the owners are absentee.


How DARE those land owners be absent! What gives them the right to just own land and not get out there and farm it?  They should have to till at least 5 acres with one of those single row, push tillers. Maybe a Troybilt Horse Tiller but only IF they have 10 acres or more.

So...how would that work, exactly? I mean, is "free up" a euphemism for just _taking _ the land from those "absentee" owners-? Then we'll dole it out to each other...uh, um, I meant, dole it out to some "holistic, synergistic food" wannabe farmers who will each raise "a few hens, sheep, a few cows, some pigs." 

As for historical models- well, Benito Mussolini did something pretty close to that back in the 1930's. 

Okay, let's do it! Let's get our pitchforks ready and go take back all those huge tracts of land from those absentee owners! Just because they OWN it doesn't mean they DESERVE it and By God, we'll just fix that won't we! :hobbyhors And then we'll start "diversifying" farming back to how it oughta be. 

The only thing I'm a little fuzzy on is exactly how many ARE _"a *few *hens, sheep, a *few* cows, *some* pigs" _-? Any room for a rooster in there with those "few hens" or will that violate my membership clause in the Agritopia HOA? God knows I wouldn't want to become one of those landowners who run afoul of what's right. 

Yeah, that was sarcasm. I've got you pegged as one of those people who believes that you should be able to do whatever you want with YOUR LAND and YOUR LIVESTOCK and farm according to YOUR IDEAS with no interference from anyone else. So I find it hilariously hypocritical how you're going to rant about what OTHER landowners are doing/not doing with THEIR privately owned land to the point of saying that if all of their animals die then they DESERVE to be financially ruined in the process. 

I really do want you to explain how you would "free up" all those large tracts of land owned by absentee landowners. Frankly, it sounds more like you're motivated by jealousy of those who have more than you than you are by agricultural science and farm to market strategies much less any real concern for making sure that all of the unemployed have jobs farming. 

I do agree with you that there are LOTS of people on welfare who -before socialized welfare- would have been working on a farm in some capacity. The thing is, many of them worked on "big farms" even back in the 1600's through the mid 1900's. I don't know that we'll see that again unless there's a cessation of the cradle to grave welfare system. I don't think going after large landowners is the answer, though. 



barnbilder said:


> But as long as I can raise all of my own food and have the appropriate fortifications to protect it from ravaging hordes....eep:


Hmmm....for some reason I'm not hearing that "State Farm Good Neighbor" theme song.

__________________________________________________

_"Your animals and God knows what else were handled!"_


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> Can you say for certain that this specific "strain du jour" of avian influenza hasn't been around before? Maybe it killed the dinosaurs. That would play into your hysteria mongering narrative quite well.


Nah. Scientists have figured it out:

__________________________________________________
_
"Your animals and God knows what else were handled!"_


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> That said, I don't know how likely is the scenario of a small scale/backyard chicken flock being watered in a pond, especially of a size to attract migratory waterfowl.


I've seen ducks and geese attracted to what were basically large mud puddles in farm fields where the water was less than 1 ft deep. 

I also know there are some here who have large numbers (100 or more) of free ranging chickens, and ponds on their properties. 

Any "body of water" no matter how small can attract ducks, and songbirds can also carry the virus.

They don't even have to have direct contact with the waterfowl.
Contact with droppings is sufficient


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted by barnbilder View Post
> Can you say for certain that *this specific "strain du jour" *of avian influenza hasn't been around before? Maybe it killed the dinosaurs. That would play into your hysteria mongering narrative quite well.


It would have to be a nearly perfectly evolved virus to have hung around for 65 million years with no mutations. 

They can mutate in just weeks so lasting millions of years isn't very realistic


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## BlueRidgeFarms (Mar 23, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> .
> 
> Not enough land for holistic, synergistic food production? Maybe if we freed up some of the land that is currently being used for monoculture ethanol production that would not be the case. In most parts of the country there are still some pretty huge tracts of land, most of the owners are absentee. There are not enough jobs in the area for anyone to be able to live there. They still own the land but live in the city. *Get a rent check from either the few stubborn farmers that are hanging on or the corporate entities that compete with those individuals. So you have a guy planting corn for miles and miles and buying all of his groceries at the store, because he doesn't have time to even get in a garden, because he has a FSA loan to pay off and the subsidies for planting corn are the only thing that can make it even pencil out.*
> 
> ...


Wow. Just, WOW. I don't even know where to start with this. 

I don't suppose it'll ever happen, but you are certainly welcome to come visit my farm, with it's miles of corn and soybeans. Then we could take time to really discuss the issues you raise, while strolling through fields that have been in my family for generations. If it's the right time of year, we could dig in the soil that is loaded with more earthworms and biology than it had in the 1950's and we could water the crops from wells my grandfather dug in the 1970's(those wells have a higher water level now than they did when they were first dug). We could talk about grain yields today that are double what they were in the 70's with about the same fertilizer use as back then. 

Most of your concerns are misplaced at best, but internet forums probably won't make much difference. I am serious about the invitation for anyone who really wants to learn about modern agriculture. I would love to visit.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> If you put a large number of animals in a small space and prop them up with chemicals to make it work, they are very susceptible to things that would normally be inconsequential. *Take city people getting sick from salmonella for instance.*


People get sick from Salmonella because they don't wash their food and hands properly, and they don't cook foods completely.

You seem to have a very distorted, unrealistic view of how large scale farming (among other things) really works



> But as long as *I can raise all of my own food* and have the appropriate fortifications to protect it from ravaging hordes, I could care less if Tyson looses a few million chickens.


I'm betting you don't really do that.
I suspect you rely highly on all the farmers you're belittling (Buzzword of the Month)


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## JohnP (Sep 1, 2010)

Those four vertically integrated chicken manufacturers aren't going anywhere unless something wipes out all the poultry on the planet. Even then, those multinational corporations will be fine as they're into other things. The actual "growers" however might not fair so well but hey, they're detached and expendable. It's not like they own the chickens anyway. Just the mortgage and manure.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

haypoint said:


> 1. Corn, the largest crop is seldom sprayed with anything besides glyphosate.
> 2. When a corn field is sprayed to kill the weeds, glyphosate is used in tiny amounts.
> 3. Glyphosate is far from dangerous and has a low toxicity level.
> 4. Very few corn acres are irrigated in this country.
> ...



Shows what you know. Corn ain't the largest crop raised in this country. Largest livestock disaster ever? Maybe, but only because of government involvement.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

barnbilder said:


> Shows what you know. Corn ain't the largest crop raised in this country.


Oh yeah? What do you think the largest crop is?


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Lawn grass.


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## BlueRidgeFarms (Mar 23, 2014)

MDKatie said:


> Oh yeah? What do you think the largest crop is?





barnbilder said:


> Lawn grass.




There are an estimated 30 million acres of lawns in the United States, 40 million acres of turf grass counting golf courses and other non-lawn grassed areas. 

http://scienceline.org/2011/07/lawns-vs-crops-in-the-continental-u-s/

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Lawn/lawn2.php

That's more than the number of *irrigated* corn acres, which was estimated at just over 13 million acres in 2007. (http://www.agcensus.usda.gov/Public...Crops_Harvested/07-M164-RGBDot1-largetext.pdf)


But it's quite a bit less than the total acres of corn in the U.S. That was over 86 million acres in 2007. (http://www.agcensus.usda.gov/Public...Crops_Harvested/07-M163-RGBDot1-largetext.pdf)


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

Ah yes...the infamous "Wack-A-Doodle Tactic". Just make the most outrageous claim you can think of in the hopes it will divert attention away from the intellectual beatdown you're taking. 

:rotfl:
__________________________________________________
_
"Your animals and God knows what else were handled!" _


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

BlueRidgeFarms said:


> There are an estimated 30 million acres of lawns in the United States, 40 million acres of turf grass counting golf courses and other non-lawn grassed areas.
> 
> http://scienceline.org/2011/07/lawns-vs-crops-in-the-continental-u-s/
> 
> ...


No doubt we'll soon be reading that your data is outdated and how lawn grass has surpassed corn as a "crop" during the last 8 years.



__________________________________________________

_ "Your animals and God knows what else were handled!" _


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I can see where someone might think that turf/lawn grass might be the largest crop. They might be confused. While it isn't the largest crop, it is the largest contributor to chemical runoff . But that doesn't fit their "Big Ag is Evil" model.
If you don't mind, can we move away from your myths about agriculture and drift back to Avian Influenza topics? If you aren't done slamming the agriculture system that has given most Americans the disposable income to pursue their hobbies, including backyard farming, start a thread on it.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Everybody is real touchy over the whole corn/subsidy/ethanol mandate thing, (which doubled the corncrop making it pass lawns) so I guess we will go back to blindly praising the government in their support of large often foreign owned agricultural corporations that shove too many birds in one place and cry when they get sick because nature happens.


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> Everybody is real touchy over the whole corn/subsidy/ethanol mandate thing, (which doubled the corncrop making it pass lawns)...


Well, I don't think "lawns" or "lawn grass" was ever in the running as a "crop" per se; but are we to interpret your latest post as an admission that you're no longer claiming that lawn grass is the largest crop -?

See now, I'm actually concerned about the whole corn into ethanol situation. Corn production DOES seem to be contributing to a lot of problems from fertilizer runoff, i.e. the Gulf Of Mexico "Dead Zone", but whether it's THE BIGGEST cause of hypoxia is unclear. There's all kinds of accusations, counter accusations, ridicule of the other side's stance, etc. as shown in the many websites that address the issue (search "Gulf of Mexico Dead Zone").




barnbilder said:


> ...so I guess we will go back to blindly praising the government in their support of large often foreign owned agricultural corporations that shove too many birds in one place and cry when they get sick because nature happens.


Can you name some of those "large often foreign owned agricultural corporations"? 

The 2012 US Census of Agriculture indicates that (only) 5.06 percent of US farms are corporate farms. These include *family corporations* (4.51 percent of all farms) and *non-family corporations* (0.55 percent of all farms). *Of the family farm corporations, 98 percent are small corporations, with 10 or fewer stockholders. *Of the *non-family farm corporations, 90 percent are small corporations, with 10 or fewer stockholders.*

Non-family corporate farms account for *only about 1.36 percent of US farmland area*. Family farms (including family corporate farms) account for 96.7 percent of US farms and 89 percent of US farmland area. 

So once again: who are all of these _"large *often foreign owned *agricultural corporations"._ you blame for everything you're angry about-? I mean, when you're not blaming "absentee landowners" and talking about "freeing up their land", that is.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> Lawn grass.


Lawn grass isn't a "crop" and it's not sprayed with Round-up at all.
Weeds are sprayed with Round-up


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> Everybody is real touchy over the whole corn/subsidy/ethanol mandate thing, (which *doubled the corncrop* making it pass lawns) so I guess we will go back to blindly praising the government in their support of large often foreign owned agricultural corporations that shove too many birds in one place and cry when they get sick because nature happens.


More people might listen to what you say if you didn't just fabricate things as you go along

When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.



> ERS reports *10 percent* increase in corn acres during Ethanol Decade


http://www.agri-pulse.com/ERS_cropland_8192011.asp


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## BlueRidgeFarms (Mar 23, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> Everybody is real touchy over the whole corn/subsidy/ethanol mandate thing, (which doubled the corncrop making it pass lawns) so I guess we will go back to blindly praising the government in their support of large often foreign owned agricultural corporations that shove too many birds in one place and cry when they get sick because nature happens.


As a last note on the corn acreage, please note that corn had the most acres in the United States around 1930.











To get back to a bird flu related topic, I really don't care about the big chicken houses getting sick and being depopulated. I do care about the rare breed preservation flocks getting sick. Places like the Sandhills preservation center are about the opposite of a "large foreign owned corporation". And they are just as susceptible to wild birds spreading disease as the big chicken houses. Probably more so if their birds are outside very much. 
It would be a tragedy to lose them.


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

haypoint said:


> I have to guess that when a hatchery gets salmonella in their flock, sends out infected eggs/chicks, it is a pretty straight forward process to trace where the "product" went and test and recall birds. Not much chance of it spreading from farm to farm like HPAI.
> 
> A few years back there were a few egg factories that had salmonella in their eggs in the states. Investigators discovered filthy conditions, open doors for plenty of vermin/wildlife to enter. Really poor bio-security.


No it isn't a straightforward process to eliminate it and no, the hatchery did not recall any birds. They just sent all the customers notices that the poultry bought could possibly be contaminated and to get a hold of the government for test kits, and of course they gave their customer records to all branches of disease control. 
Salmonella, like other contagious diseases can be transmitted by wild birds, rodents and by contaminated footwear and water/feed pails etc. It can be spread by wearing your chore boots into town and someone else stepping on bits of soil that fell off them and then they take it home to their animals. 
It can be spread in auction barns by unscrupulous or uninformed people bringing in their infected birds that spread their dander to others. These chickens show no outward signs of illness so it is overlooked. 
It is more widespread in the states then you are being informed about...why else are there daily recalls on frozen processed chicken products?

BTW I am not arguing the fact of how devastating the avian flu is, I'm also warning about the SE infecting flocks and the need to cull them is also affecting the number of fowl that are safe.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Latest news from Washington state, explains how the poor bio-security of backyard flocks can devastate the businesses and jobs of everyone in commercial poultry industry.


Washington state vet: Backyard flocks most vulnerable to bird flu
By Don Jenkins

Capital Press

September 28, 2015





OLYMPIA - Washington State Veterinarian Joe Baker says he's confident commercial poultry farms are prepared for bird flu, but he's worried that ignorance will not be bliss for owners of backyard flocks.



Even after what the U.S. Department of Agriculture calls the "largest animal health event in our history," Baker said he still encounters poultry owners who are oblivious to bird flu.



And even if commercial barns ward off the virus, trade sanctions will follow if the disease strikes a non-commercial flock, Baker said. "We can't separate the small hobby flocks from the commercial operations."



The highly pathogenic bird flu that made its U.S. debut in a wild duck in Washington last December eventually claimed 7.5 million turkeys, 42.1 million chickens and cost taxpayers more than $950 million, according to the USDA. The virus infected 211 commercial operations, with 184 of those cases in April and May in the Upper Midwest.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

According to the USDA that is. How exactly did it cost the taxpayers money? If the commercial operations are set up to handle bird flu, how come it's costing taxpayers money. Shouldn't they not be having any problems with their advanced biosecurity and all? 


We are getting a lot of rain, I had a chick drown. I think I will call the government and see if they can kill all of the chickens within six miles, stuff them in sandbags and try to divert some water. That is the same reasoning at work here.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Infected chickens are virus factories. The longer they live the more virus they produce. It is good science to eradicate the infected flock as soon as possible. Contrary to your beliefs in evil over-reaching government, USDA brought in teams of trained, equipped staff to do much of the euthanizing and disposal. I doubt any facility has the manpower to pull a couple million hens out of cages in a timely fashion. Only takes a day or two and the hens come out in pieces. Then there are the countless samples collected and the Lab work. Executing a plan to safely dispose of these birds while modifying the plan as the numbers of infections grew into the tens of millions. USDA staff were brought in from all over the country to help these farmers.

No one can be "set up" to handle the most significant livestock loss in the country's history. When wildfires race across California, are you of the belief those people should have known better and fight the fires themselves? When Hurricane Sandy tore up the East Coast, shouldn't those people have known the risk and then rebuilt their towns themselves? Naw, that old government you hate is out there trying to do good. 

Now, groups of hardworking employees of commercial poultry operations could lose their jobs, their incomes, despite daily at work showers, antiseptic foot mats, sanitary coveralls and latex gloves and a whole list of precautions, because someone down the road with 6 hens refuses to make any attempts at risk reduction. Yea, that'll show those government thugs a thing or two.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

So, on your planet, it's the governments job to bail people out of high risk situations, (like commercial poultry farming) even if it means destroying the property of people that are unaffected. If the commercial poultry barns are that much of a threat, in spite of their stellar biosecurity measures, maybe they should be shut down. Maybe people need to know what a risk they are and stop eating chicken. Seems like creating all of those disease vectors to supply the cheap food market is way more dangerous than say, raw milk, or other windmills that the government routinely jousts at.


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## BlueRidgeFarms (Mar 23, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Infected chickens are virus factories. The longer they live the more virus they produce. It is good science to eradicate the infected flock as soon as possible.


I'm really not sure about that. The primary reservoir is in the wild bird population, not the domestic population. Wiping out all the domestic birds in a certain area won't really stop the virus significantly.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

BlueRidgeFarms said:


> I'm really not sure about that. The primary reservoir is in the wild bird population, not the domestic population. Wiping out all the domestic birds in a certain area won't really stop the virus significantly.


Key word is "infected". Maintaining a reservoir of HPAI in domestic poultry is a sure way of the virus spreading. I really don't know how many wild birds carry the HPAI. Some do. After testing thousands of wild birds in Michigan, I think 6 had HPAI. So, when you have 20 million chickens with HPAI, in a single state, I would guess, they outnumber the HPAI wild population?
I'm no expert on USDA's plan for HPAI, but everyone's hot button is the government is going to kill my birds. In practice, I think they try to get everyone to limit exposure and risky practices. If your birds get sick, they test and if positive it is of little difference if they foam them or they suffer a few days and die on their own. Best is to get them to stop multiplying the virus by killing them.
A lot was learned by the last outbreak. Maybe the lazy operations buttoned up their sloppy practices. But USDA is manned up to move swiftly and get it handled right away this time.
Michigan hasn't had any outbreaks, so I have no info on that. Michigan has had 50 or 60 dairy or beef herds get quarantined for TB. I know how that works. If you are lucky, the USDA gives you market value for all your cattle and they take them. If you aren't so lucky or have a big herd, you get quarantined and tested twice a year and they buy your infected cattle. This continues for a few years after your herd has a clean bill of health.
If you are within a circle around the infected herd, you get quarantined, tested and released from quarantine. With TB you always have the risk of it being spread by wildlife to your farm. Not sure with HPAI.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

Can't help but think that if the virus is carried by wild birds, it could be being brought into the huge facilitates by worker(s) then spreads (and mutates) inside due to the population density. 

They've banned the shows, swaps, etc...but that doesn't stop the idiots who are swapping birds higgledy piggledy via online forums, craigslist, etc with no thought to any disease, quarantine, etc.

Just some thoughts.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Could be. Who works in these huge operations? Mostly low paid, low educated, men willing to do hard work. Sounds like our brothers from the south. What is a common hobby of those ethnic groups. It aint dog fighting.
Do fighting cocks get traded and shipped all over the country? Are these birds, sometimes worth tens of thousands of dollars, smuggled into this country? Are these employees that signed an agreement not to be around poultry when not at work, going to admit to illegal fighting cock ownership or attendance at an event. Nope.

Are some backyard hobby farmer going to spread the disease? Maybe.


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

haypoint said:


> Could be. Who works in these huge operations? Mostly low paid, low educated, men willing to do hard work. Sounds like our brothers from the south. What is a common hobby of those ethnic groups. It aint dog fighting.
> Do fighting cocks get traded and shipped all over the country? Are these birds, sometimes worth tens of thousands of dollars, smuggled into this country? Are these employees that signed an agreement not to be around poultry when not at work, going to admit to illegal fighting cock ownership or attendance at an event. Nope.
> 
> Are some backyard hobby farmer going to spread the disease? Maybe.


:shocked: Wha?
I got no problem with someone stating that hobby cock fighter participants might be guilty of cross contamination carelessness.
But don't see the point of making it ethnic OR geographically pointed. 
Careless people exist without boundaries. 
And there are some so called uneducated people that are smarter than USDA procedure followers. Just my opinion, of course.
Some masters degree holders would lie about where they been just as quick.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

They aren't all from South, a lot of them come from far west that end up in that situation, and they have no problem stuffing a few hatching eggs in a diaper bag. But that pales in comparison to the people that ship birds and eggs and drive cross country carrying birds everywhere. For every person that gladly lets the USDA gas their flock, there will be three that take their favorite pet silkie to great aunt Edna's place in a cat carrier when they visit for thanksgiving. Moot point considering the millions of migrating fowl that fly wherever they want to, and they ain't litterbox trained. As long as we have humans that have to go in big commercial poultry houses, big commercial poultry houses are going to act as petri dishes for whatever disease comes along. You can take a shower and clean your boots all you want to but it isn't going to get rid of every single virus germ hiding on a human body or nobody would ever catch a cold. So if exterminating the human race would solve the problem, maybe we should let the bird flu run it's course.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

partndn said:


> :shocked: Wha?
> I got no problem with someone stating that hobby cock fighter participants might be guilty of cross contamination carelessness.
> But don't see the point of making it ethnic OR geographically pointed.
> Careless people exist without boundaries.
> ...


Cock fighting is popular south of the border. Those that are employed doing "work Americans won't do" are often from south of the border. Most chicken factories that I know of employ Spanish speaking men from south of the border. 
If Michael Vick and his urban buddies were often engaged with Cock fighting, then my comment would be wrong. But if I failed to tip toe around a fact you dislike, sorry. Perhaps mentioning the typical hen house employee's home as it equates to a location known for cock fighting was offensive?
Many breeders of quality fighting cocks have great talents in poultry management. Some rise to management positions in the poultry industry. Since this activity is illegal to begin with, few are going to admit to it knowing it will cost them their jobs.
The cock fighting sport can't really be viewed as a hobby. Far too much money changes hands to be a hobby. 
I was just pointing out one possible breach in bio-security, not meant as a slam against an entire race. Lots of other possible breaches.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

As far as the amounts of money changing hands IDK, but for many of those people they view their fowl as a deep part of their heritage and would do anything to keep them. There are many Caucasians that would feel the same, some of the fowl families have been in families for generations, some could trace back to the birds that whupped Santa Anna, twice. Your wallet is chock full of pictures of cockfighters right now, and they weren't from south of the border.


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

haypoint said:


> Cock fighting is popular south of the border. Those that are employed doing "work Americans won't do" are often from south of the border. Most chicken factories that I know of employ Spanish speaking men from south of the border.
> If Michael Vick and his urban buddies were often engaged with Cock fighting, then my comment would be wrong. But if I failed to tip toe around a fact you dislike, sorry. Perhaps mentioning the typical hen house employee's home as it equates to a location known for cock fighting was offensive?
> Many breeders of quality fighting cocks have great talents in poultry management. Some rise to management positions in the poultry industry. Since this activity is illegal to begin with, few are going to admit to it knowing it will cost them their jobs.
> The cock fighting sport can't really be viewed as a hobby. Far too much money changes hands to be a hobby.
> I was just pointing out one possible breach in bio-security, not meant as a slam against an entire race. Lots of other possible breaches.



Oh for heaven's sake!!! Haypoint, seriously, my apologies. I totally misunderstood. Believe it or not, I read your post as you are in Michigan, and I am, of course, a southerner, as in 'Murica! LOL I am glad you clarified. I couldn't figure out what was supposed to be relevant about southerners. :smack 

Back to the post, I see what you are saying. I still figure though, that cock fighting could have been mentioned. Where they come from really doesn't have any matter, as there's lots of kinds of people into all sorts of things like that.

I disagree with you on most all things agri-related. Not so much on information, but more on how we choose to feel about the information. I have kept up with this thread and appreciate each time you add some updates. But I still disagree with your view of regs and gov and the alphabet entities. 

I don't think a lot of minds will get changed here, but it is good to see both interpretations of the info. I certainly am in the camp of pretty much lost all trust in anything gov involved. But I didn't come to that based on what one person said, or what one thread revealed, or what one lone experience yielded. We're all responsible for adding knowledge and doing with it what we will.

And then occasionally, I embarrass myself like my misunderstanding here.  Oh well, I can laugh at myself :grin:


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Nevermind.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Cool weather and high winds often starts the bird migration. I guess if we are going to get it again, the time is near. Will be interesting how the USDA handles it this time.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

haypoint said:


> Cool weather and high winds often starts the bird migration. I guess if we are going to get it again, the time is near. Will be interesting how the USDA handles it this time.


Indeed, will be interesting to see if AI even flares again....and where.


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## marusempai (Sep 16, 2007)

We've been getting zillions of wild ducks down on the creek for a couple of weeks now.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

partndn said:


> :shocked: Wha?
> I got no problem with someone stating that hobby cock fighter participants might be guilty of cross contamination carelessness.
> But don't see the point of making it ethnic OR geographically pointed.
> Careless people exist without boundaries.
> ...


In my area the backyard chickin crowd has been way more responsible for spreading disease through their little gigglefest get-togethers than the cockers, who have always existed, are still common and do often have the sense and the knowledge to protect the health of their birds (and so indirectly, mine). In one of the ironies of today's increased focus on feelings instead of facts, those who would wail to to no end at even the mention of cock fighting are more responsible for spreading disease among their "babies" than the most hardened cock fighter. Now tell me, who really cares more about his birds? That can be debatable, but if I had a choice I know which one of the two I would chose to be my neighbor. No cocker here has ever caused a show to be cancelled, or been responsible for increased restrictions, but the chickin kissers have.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Article about world health organization on cockfighting and avian influenza, for anyone interested.

http://www.upc-online.org/poultry_diseases/22306flu_cockfighting.html


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Article about backyard flocks and avian influenza, for anyone interested.

http://m.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2015/05/ongoing-bird-flu-crisis-stumps-experts


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Game chickens are typically kept one to a pen most of the time, if they are really game chickens. If they become infected, this would make it a little harder for them to spread it. An open border is an open border, and there are a lot of disease risks associated with that, regardless of cockfighting. People could learn something from the Michael Vick ordeal, and that would be that when you make something illegal, you automatically insure that the basest of individuals carry on that activity. If you made horse racing illegal, it is very likely that people would still race horses, but they might be less inclined to keep there Coggins certificate up to date, because, they are already breaking the law, what's a Coggins certificate? Also very likely that they would routinely dump their horses alongside the road to avoid prosecution, and all sorts of bad things.

I think it would be a stretch to imply that chickens, kept one to a pen, well fed, and extremely physically fit would pose any significant risk of leading to a disease outbreak. But seeing as how the WHO is quoting a known and convicted unrepentant terrorist and animal extremist as a credible source on the disease risks associated with cockfighting, I'm sure it fits the whole narrative quite well.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

barnbilder said:


> Game chickens are typically kept one to a pen most of the time, if they are really game chickens. If they become infected, this would make it a little harder for them to spread it. An open border is an open border, and there are a lot of disease risks associated with that, regardless of cockfighting. People could learn something from the Michael Vick ordeal, and that would be that when you make something illegal, you automatically insure that the basest of individuals carry on that activity. If you made horse racing illegal, it is very likely that people would still race horses, but they might be less inclined to keep there Coggins certificate up to date, because, they are already breaking the law, what's a Coggins certificate? Also very likely that they would routinely dump their horses alongside the road to avoid prosecution, and all sorts of bad things. *Good points, however AI can easily be spread by boots, clothing, mice or sparrows going from one pen to another or even in the air. That is why these outbreaks are so widespread. Keeping birds in separate pens will do nothing to stop it if it hits a farm.*
> 
> I think it would be a stretch to imply that chickens, kept one to a pen, well fed, and extremely physically fit would pose any significant risk of leading to a disease outbreak. But seeing as how the WHO is quoting a known and convicted unrepentant terrorist and animal extremist as a credible source on the disease risks associated with cockfighting, I'm sure it fits the whole narrative quite well.


The source doesn't matter, they're using the gullibility of the public to tie one legitimate threat to the animal rights agenda. Cockfighting is bad, disease is bad, so the two must be related. And people fall for it. Another of their latest tacts is to claim that animal smuggling is the biggest money maker after drug smuggling. Well maybe, but how much of a difference is there between the two? The money made from animal smuggling may be 1% or less than that of drug smuggling, but if there is nothing in between the two is calling animal smuggling the number two money maker really accurate or comparable? Doesn't matter. The public doesn't bother to think that deeply. Drug smuggling is bad, animal smuggling is bad, so the two must be related. Must send that check into PETA to stop the horror.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

While it can be spread from a lot of inanimate objects, bird to bird contact is going to win out. Warm host to warm host will always lead to more infections. You might get my cold from a doorknob, but if we kiss and rub noses and share a drinking glass you are going to have a better chance.

It might be surprising to some, but a lot of people with gamefowl, (the ones that didn't just get off the boat anyway), routinely test for AI, and participate in NPIP, so that they can ship birds legally. The once multimillion dollar export market is now a small specialty market. Most sell for breeding purposes only and have to ship to get to interested parties, so following shipping regs is imperative. Thanks to the animal rights terrorists and their bedfellows in government, we can't even ship birds "for the purpose of cockfighting" to other countries where the sport is legal and culturally accepted., which was once a thriving, multimillion dollar export industry. (In the Philippines they have events that are followed as closely as our superbowl.)


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

You're splitting hairs. This strain is highly virulent. If one bird on your farm has it they all will get it. Doesn't matter that the chances are higher or it will be spread faster by direct contact. When you notice the first symptoms in one bird the others have likely already been exposed, even if in separate pens.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

From what I've read they don't all automatically get it, and carrying it is not necessarily harmful to all the birds that carry it.

People want millions dead do it doesn't affect people.

Some people get some forms of worms. Some are deadly some not. But the govt isn't going around killing all the livestock that has worms.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

gibbsgirl said:


> From what I've read they don't all automatically get it, and carrying it is not necessarily harmful to all the birds that carry it.
> 
> People want millions dead do it doesn't affect people.
> 
> Some people get some forms of worms. Some are deadly some not. But the govt isn't going around killing all the livestock that has worms.


You're over simplifying and not making appropriate analogies.

Different disease causing organisms behave differently in different species. Waterfowl are asymptomatic carriers of AI, but it is not often fatal in them. Certain strains devastate chickens and turkeys.

Unexposed corvids, Impeyan pheasants and others are highly susceptible to West Nile, but thankfully it also is affected by the typical immune response in birds which have been exposed. Humans rarely get it. Most mammals are highly susceptible to rabies, but opossums don't seem to be, and bats can also be asymptomatic carriers. Emus usually die from EEE, but many other species do not. There are countless other examples.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Either way, I don't agree with the govt having the right to order mass exterminations of livestock.

If they want to control what is quarantined and crosses our national borders, that's okay IMO. But, not these mass exterminations.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

That is a narrow view. Without the strict control measures AI, and Newcastle too, will spread uncontrollably. There will be no eggs, no meat, no poultry shows, no hatcheries or backyard chickens to hug.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Agriculture said:


> That is a narrow view. Without the strict control measures AI, and Newcastle too, will spread uncontrollably. There will be no eggs, no meat, no poultry shows, no hatcheries or backyard chickens to hug.


Possibly. But, there's no proof there would be a mass extinction.

Imo modern USA ag practices are not good in many ways, financially, biologically, environmentally, etc.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

gibbsgirl said:


> Possibly. But, there's no proof there would be a mass extinction.
> 
> Imo modern USA ag practices are not good in many ways, financially, biologically, environmentally, etc.


USDA was able to eradicate foot and mouth by mass extermination of livestock. USDA was able to eradicate psudorabies from farm pigs through mass extermination of pigs.

In Michigan, there has been a mass extermination of backyard fowl as recently as yesterday to prevent the spread of Avian Influenza.

Go ahead, hate big Ag. But at least admit that is on an emotional level. Big Ag is good on an economical level. The proof is shown in the high rate of economical success among large farms. It is generally the smaller farms that either depend on outside income (wife works in town) or they soon fail. Biologically, modern agriculture has benefitted from narrowly focused insecticides and hybridized varieties that are resistant to plant diseases and insect attacks without insecticides and fungicides. More food from less land provides for greater biodiversity. Environmentally, modern "no till" methods conserve tons of topsoil, previously lost due to regular cultivation and plowing under of plant residue.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> Game chickens are typically kept one to a pen most of the time, if they are really game chickens. If they become infected, this would make it a little harder for them to spread it. An open border is an open border, and there are a lot of disease risks associated with that, regardless of cockfighting. People could learn something from the Michael Vick ordeal, and that would be that when you make something illegal, you automatically insure that the basest of individuals carry on that activity. If you made horse racing illegal, it is very likely that people would still race horses, but they might be less inclined to keep there Coggins certificate up to date, because, they are already breaking the law, what's a Coggins certificate? Also very likely that they would routinely dump their horses alongside the road to avoid prosecution, and all sorts of bad things.
> 
> I think it would be a stretch to imply that chickens, kept one to a pen, well fed, and extremely physically fit would pose any significant risk of leading to a disease outbreak. But seeing as how the WHO is quoting a known and convicted unrepentant terrorist and animal extremist as a credible source on the disease risks associated with cockfighting, I'm sure it fits the whole narrative quite well.


Why does the myth persist that animals, including humans, when fed a healthy diet and regular exercise are automatically able to fight off a virus? The worst flu epidemic in the past few hundred years killed those with the strongest immune system first. 

Why would anyone surmise that breeders of Fighting Cocks have only one? That makes no logical sense. Anyone can figure out there must be scores of birds and various strains with a steady influx of new birds from all over the globe. 

Lets not get too fixated about the link between backyard Cock Fighting breeders, often times Mexicans and the minimum wage poultry experts employed by corporate poultry barns, often these same Mexicans. I mentioned it just as a real life example of a break in bio-security.

Various diseases have various levels of contagion. PIV spreads from a customer in a Party Store with virus on the sole of his boot getting picked up by another customer, hours later, tracking up the virus and taking it home to his pigs. Syphilis requires an exchange of body fluids and cannot be transmitted by a toilet seat or swimming pool.

Since sparrow droppings into chicken feed can spred the virus, I'd say it is highly contagious.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

gibbsgirl said:


> Either way, I don't agree with the govt having the right to order mass exterminations of livestock.
> 
> If they want to control what is quarantined and crosses our national borders, that's okay IMO. But, not these mass exterminations.


Clearly, a mass extermination is sad. Do to the cost of the testing and murder of 50,000,0000 fowl, I'll bet the USDA would like to know your more effective method of controlling the disease. What is it?

Quarantining the millions of migrating birds isn't realistic. Currently, all legally imported birds must have a Certificate of Veterinary Inspection, prior to importation.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

haypoint said:


> USDA was able to eradicate foot and mouth by mass extermination of livestock. USDA was able to eradicate psudorabies from farm pigs through mass extermination of pigs.
> 
> In Michigan, there has been a mass extermination of backyard fowl as recently as yesterday to prevent the spread of Avian Influenza.
> 
> Go ahead, hate big Ag. But at least admit that is on an emotional level. Big Ag is good on an economical level. The proof is shown in the high rate of economical success among large farms. It is generally the smaller farms that either depend on outside income (wife works in town) or they soon fail. Biologically, modern agriculture has benefitted from narrowly focused insecticides and hybridized varieties that are resistant to plant diseases and insect attacks without insecticides and fungicides. More food from less land provides for greater biodiversity. Environmentally, modern "no till" methods conserve tons of topsoil, previously lost due to regular cultivation and plowing under of plant residue.


I don't hate big ag. I disagree with some of it. It's not emotional.

I don't agree big ag is great economically. It could not be sustained economically with out all the taxpayer money and govt legislation protecting big ag, in the firm it exists in.

And, the environmental and biodiversity, gmo, etc, I don't agree with a lot of it.

Smaller outfits are at more risk of failure because regulations don't protect them as much, and frequently even target them from existing or growing. They also aren't Too big to fail". Family farms also have to provide by their own means for a family. Lots of large farms are big ag corps providing for their shareholders, and counting on the govt and bankruptcy to protect them.

I've found it fascinating to learn about some of the different ag practices in other nations, and historical practices. There's some good stuff there that American big ag fights and won't do that I disagree with.

I know it's unpleasant for people to fret over starvation, etc imagining what would happen if our ag system collapsed. But, its just as scary to consider how perilous some of it is with the path we're on IMO.

And, I don't agree with the premise that we're doing so great. It's not the govts job to ensure the national or global food supply. Local state and regional markets is where that should all be managed. But, that is slipping away.


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

gibbsgirl said:


> I don't hate big ag. I disagree with some of it. It's not emotional.
> 
> I don't agree big ag is great economically. It could not be sustained economically with out all the taxpayer money and govt legislation protecting big ag, in the firm it exists in.
> 
> ...


^^^ Yup


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

haypoint said:


> Clearly, a mass extermination is sad. Do to the cost of the testing and murder of 50,000,0000 fowl, I'll bet the USDA would like to know your more effective method of controlling the disease. What is it?
> 
> Quarantining the millions of migrating birds isn't realistic. Currently, all legally imported birds must have a Certificate of Veterinary Inspection, prior to importation.


Obviously, (I thought), I was not referring to migratory birds, but import and exporting of birds.

I don't think they need to kill the birds. If individual outfits want to kill their stock, fine, its there's. If people want to stop doing business with them, fine that's their choice. If they go belly up, fine that's on them.

Yes, disease outbreaks are scary. Yes flus like, these, like Spanish flu are scary cause they're deadlier to those stronger.

Sickle cell anemia and cystic fibrosis are scary too. Some scientists wanted to eradicate it from being carried by humans. Then, they discovered while people with both genes got sick, carriers with only one gene had extra immunity to other much more common contagious diseases. So, there way a positive reason for it to exist in the gene pool.

Bird flu is scary. But, the govt pretending it can get it all under control us to me 1, comical, and 2, may have unforeseen consequences that are not good in the long run.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

gibbsgirl said:


> Article about backyard flocks and avian influenza, for anyone interested.
> 
> http://m.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2015/05/ongoing-bird-flu-crisis-stumps-experts


The fact that Mother Jones is "out there" aside, Avian Influenza is attacking backyard flocks. Hate to bring it up, but the times that Avian Influenza mutated and killed humans was among backyard flocks. 
Thanks for the link, I have to admit I did get a chuckle over the comments from Mother Jones, jumping on GMO and the increase in pesticides due to GMO then tying it all into HPAI.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

haypoint said:


> The fact that Mother Jones is "out there" aside, Avian Influenza is attacking backyard flocks. Hate to bring it up, but the times that Avian Influenza mutated and killed humans was among backyard flocks.
> Thanks for the link, I have to admit I did get a chuckle over the comments from Mother Jones, jumping on GMO and the increase in pesticides due to GMO then tying it all into HPAI.


You're welcome.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

gibbsgirl said:


> From what I've read they don't all automatically get it, and carrying it is not necessarily harmful to all the birds that carry it.
> 
> People want millions dead do it doesn't affect people.
> 
> Some people get some forms of worms. Some are deadly some not. But the govt isn't going around killing all the livestock that has worms.


Parasites have nothing to do with viruses.

It's just as important to eliminate the carriers as it is to euthanize the ones that develop the disease.

It's not some evil Govt conspiracy, and no one "wants" it at all


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Parasites have nothing to do with viruses.
> 
> It's just as important to eliminate the carriers as it is to euthanize the ones that develop the disease.
> 
> It's not some evil Govt conspiracy, and no one "wants" it at all


Opinions vary. And, I did not say I believed it was a govt conspiracy, evil or otherwise.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

USDA killed people's livestock so that they could get rid of foot and mouth so they could clear foot and mouth contaminated beef because people are making too much money from raising beef. It hasn't been about protecting farmers or consumers for a very long time now, it's about control.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> USDA killed people's livestock so that they could get rid of foot and mouth so they could clear foot and mouth contaminated beef because people are making too much money from raising beef. It hasn't been about protecting farmers or consumers for a very long time now, it's about control.


Interesting. The most dreaded livestock disease around exists as a government plot to keep farmers from getting rich?
Since most beef farms are small farmers, the government can control them through livestock diseases. Is that your belief? 
But since most poultry operations are big Ag and the government is in bed with Big Ag, why is the government spreading disease among their Big Ag friends?


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> USDA killed people's livestock so that they could get rid of foot and mouth so they could clear foot and mouth contaminated beef because people are making too much money from raising beef.


:teehee:


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

gibbsgirl said:


> Sickle cell anemia and cystic fibrosis are scary too. Some scientists wanted to eradicate it from being carried by humans. Then, they discovered while people with both genes got sick, carriers with only one gene had extra immunity to other much more common contagious diseases.


Cystic fibrosis is way more than "scary". I doubt anyone who has it or has a family member or friend with it would consider a potential resistance to typhoid to be a "positive reason" worth the price of the benefit (of having CF).




gibbsgirl said:


> So, there way a positive reason for it to exist in the gene pool.


I suppose one day someone "may" discover a "positive reason for (all kinds of diseases) to exist in the gene pool"...but those "positive reasons" rarely outweigh the negative effects in the case of debilitating diseases such as CF. "Positive reasons" are usually only a convenient way for genetic defects to be passed on; as in, convenient to the defective gene as it allows the carriers to live long enough to pass on the gene. Otherwise, the defect wouldn't be passed on because the carriers would die out. 

That still does not equate to the genetic disease being something that is -taken as a whole- desirable to the carrier.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

haypoint said:


> ...
> In Michigan, there has been a mass extermination of backyard fowl as recently as yesterday to prevent the spread of Avian Influenza.
> 
> ....


Link to more info please???


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

aart said:


> Link to more info please???


Sorry, it was LPAI and there is no link. If there is a HPAI there will be a link.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

http://freddonaldson.com/2015/09/29...t-and-mouth-disease-epidemic-in-cattle-herds/


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

haypoint said:


> Sorry, it was LPAI and there is no link. If there is a HPAI there will be a link.


Oh, I figured you read about it online, would still be interested to know more about the 'event' if you care to iterate it here or in PM.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

haypoint said:


> ... More food from less land provides for greater biodiversity....


Are you kidding me? The modern farm practices attempt to make more food and more profit with huge fields of monocrops. How on earth could that make for biodiversity? Smaller farms that use modern organic methods will increase biodiversity, perhaps they won't make as much money or salable food, but they are certainly more healthy for the environment. That statement is just nonsense. I only have to look at the miles of dry land wheat in our area to see the lack of biodiversity. The only place there is other things growing supporting wildlife, etc., is where the land is too steep or poor to support wheat. Some farmers also cut back on their profits, more food per acre, type thinking and deliberately DON'T plant wheat in certain areas, but instead set up wild areas. This is against the scenario you paint, out of love for the land rather than profit. 

Giant chicken and eggs "farms" are just not kind to the birds. They may be physically healthy, but they are in small cages, treated as a factory and not as a living being. I say that and I hate the AR movement and what it has done, but there must be a better way to keep us in eggs and chicken. I'm sure I'm beating the dead horse once again, we will never agree. So, I'll quit here.
:bdh:


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I don't see how comparing the killing of cattle to prevent the spread of hoof and mouth disease to the Avian flu works. Cattle don't fly through the air and spread disease by their droppings like migratory wild birds, they would be imported by people and could be tested, etc. If the Avian flu is spread by sparrows, then it will be spread, period, and no slaughter of our barnyard (or commercial) fowl will affect that significantly anyway. Better to find a way to immunize or treat it or breed for immunity in our livestock. Yes, killing the birds that are sick with it might help some, but its not going to eradicate it and linking the thought of mass killing of fowl to eradication is just not logical. You can't kill all the wild birds that carry it, that would destroy our ecology way worse than the disease, even if it were possible.


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

GrannyCarol said:


> Better to find a way to immunize or treat it or breed for immunity in our livestock.


So when are you going to do that? Or will it be another "backyard farmer" who treats his chickens as "living beings" who does that-?

I'm a small scale farmer, too and although I appreciate the independence of small family/hobby/backyard farms, I don't fool myself into thinking that farming model solves all the problems or is immune to the problems that affect larger, commercial operations. 

And I definitely don't know any homestead farmers who are doing medical research on their farms and developing livestock immunizations. I doubt very seriously if a avian flu vaccine is developed it'll be down the road at old Widow McGrundy's place in her backyard chicken research and development lab.


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> http://freddonaldson.com/2015/09/29...t-and-mouth-disease-epidemic-in-cattle-herds/


I'm going to research that some more...but taken at face value, it certainly doesn't look "good" or "right" or in the interests of American farmers/people.

Looks like more of the current Marxist President wanting to force more "globalization" on America...especially if it means catering to third world cesspools in Africa and Asia.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Targe said:


> I'm going to research that some more...but taken at face value, it certainly doesn't look "good" or "right" or in the interests of American farmers/people.
> 
> Looks like more of the current Marxist President wanting to force more "globalization" on America...especially if it means catering to third world cesspools in Africa and Asia.


 Well, the more farmers that get driven into committing sideways the better, because let's face it, a lot of multi-generational farmers don't vote for Marxist presidents.


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## BlueRidgeFarms (Mar 23, 2014)

GrannyCarol said:


> Are you kidding me? The modern farm practices attempt to make more food and more profit with huge fields of monocrops. How on earth could that make for biodiversity? Smaller farms that use modern organic methods will increase biodiversity, perhaps they won't make as much money or salable food, but they are certainly more healthy for the environment. That statement is just nonsense. I only have to look at the miles of dry land wheat in our area to see the lack of biodiversity. The only place there is other things growing supporting wildlife, etc., is where the land is too steep or poor to support wheat.* Some farmers also cut back on their profits, more food per acre, type thinking and deliberately DON'T plant wheat in certain areas, but instead set up wild areas. This is against the scenario you paint, out of love for the land rather than profit. *



That is exactly the point he's trying to make. Because modern ag is more efficient at producing food than older, less intensive methods, it takes less land to produce the needed food. Therefore, there is more "excess" land to be left for wildlife. 
Methods that yield less per acre need more acres to produce the same amount of food. Therefore they cannot leave as much land to wildlife and biodiversity.


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