# Question about churches



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Jesus said:

Matthew 9:12-13
On hearing this, Jesus said, &#8220;It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: &#8216;
I desire mercy, not sacrifice.&#8217; For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.&#8221;

I really have a legitimate question.

What is the purpose of 'churches'?

*My* understanding, based upon Scriptures is that churches are buildings that are meeting places for The Church....the body of Believers....where

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, *so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.*

It is where the Gospel is preached, yes, but it is supposed to be separate, different from 'the world'. Where the lost, the broken, the down trodden, the hurting go, to seek and find The Great Healer.

Where when they who were lost, are now found, can be thouroughly equipped to them help those who are in the position THEY were in, when they first arrived.

How is it, that I feel more love, more concern, safer, helped, cared for, and considered at a secular counselor, than I do in ANY church in a 25 mile radius of my home?

At one of my lowest spots in the last two years, I called and emailed 5 pastors at 5 different churches, expressing my brokenness and desire to find help from The Church, and not a pill bottle or secular counselor...........and NOT ONE called or replied?

I don't understand.

It seems all the 'help' they are willing to provide is "read this book, join this group, volunteer, and fill the cauffers.
Why is it like this?
This is not what Scripture teaches?


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Jesus said:
> 
> Matthew 9:12-13
> On hearing this, Jesus said, âIt is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: â
> ...



IMO.......this is why so many 'main-stream' denominations are losing members.

I think that there are many reasons........my thoughts are not organized........so I will just post thoughts as they come to mind.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

The church, as I understand it, is to be a place of a gathering of believers who strengthen each others faith by supposedly (being there) for him/her. IF a new person comes into a church to find whatever for their situation, It is hoped that they will find one or more, who have been where that person now is, and be able to understand where they are, by where THEY were, and help to guide them through their difficulty and by sharing the good new and what Jesus has done in their life..
One will never understand Jesus OR God until they read the Bible. They will never understand the Bible unless/until they go to a place where it is regulary studied and taught about and preached upon.
I have seen 2 different styles of teaching. one, an old man taught, as with authority. We listened, and didn't interject anything. IF we didn't understand a point, or had a question about a point, or wanted a clarification of a point, for the most part, we kept out mouths shut, and just listened. As that was the way the majority of my Sunday School lessons went, I assumed that's the way that they were taught.
Now, for the last year or 2, Weve had a teacher that is very well versed in the Bible. BUT, Many times he interjects his own idea of what a certain verse says. He understands and teaches that anyone can take any verse out of the Bible and make a religion out of it. Consequently, If one reads a certain verse in the Bible that causes them concern, likely if they keep reading, they will find another verse somewhere that explains the first verse better, or comes around to the point of the first verse a different way. He encourages us to ask questions, and we do, Sometimes we may have 4 or so different openions of a verse. Having that, and telling them, helps us to understand each others ideas and their thoughts about the Bible, and many times to right a wrong idea that somebodies great grandmother told their mom cause GGMs brothers particular friend was a preacher and said it. One believed that there were black angels and white angels. Likely an old southern idea. We have had several discussions on the differences between the soul and spirit, about death and the here after. Whether we will all be in Heaven or will repopulate Earth. On the fact that man was here at one time before Adam and Eve, and maybe man has been here many times before. On ghosts, and spooks, voodoo, ect. Anything that someone thinks to interject for discussion that tends to run with a lesson we encourage all to espouse their openions, and we iron out the wrinkles.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Bill, Churches are loseing people cause that's the way its supposed to be. Were in the Last Days, and Jesus said here would be (A great falling away) of hearing the Word.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

FBB does it again!  
Laura, I think that the more you read the book the more you will realize that most main stream churches couldn't find the right path with a brace of blood hounds and a spot light. It just isn't in them. That should not discourage you from finding the path yourself, or from trying different churches. As FBB just witnessed, they are out there. I tell you the truth, you will get far with prayer and fasting. Seek and you will find.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

We've always been in the last days. These last days really aren't that different from all of the past last days. We're still young, if you ask me. Of course that is just another guess.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Welcome to the American Church of Mr. Potato Head.

The Church, The Bride of Christ, are the people who follow in His footsteps doing the Will of the Father. It is not a building.

We assemble wherever we find each other. Sometimes it's in a building with enough followers gathering to function in all the gifts of the spirit and it's an amazing thing. It's a rare and special thing. 

Most people find the Doctrine of Jesus Christ too tough so move on to the church of Mr. Potato Head.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I love this quote, and repost it every chance I get. This is from GITANJALI by RABINDRANATH TAGORE. 
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/tagore/gitnjali.htm
This is just a fragment of the whole, which is a long poem sort of like Psalms. This part really says very well what I would like to yell about churches. God's church is not in a building, but is made of many different people (un-cut stones). 

_Here is thy footstool and there rest thy feet where live the poorest, and lowliest, and lost.
When I try to bow to thee, my obeisance cannot reach down to the depth where thy feet rest among the poorest, and lowliest, and lost.
Pride can never approach to where thou walkest in the clothes of the humble among the poorest, and lowliest, and lost.
My heart can never find its way to where thou keepest company with the companionless among the poorest, the lowliest, and the lost.
________________________________________
Leave this chanting and singing and telling of beads! Whom dost thou worship in this lonely dark corner of a temple with doors all shut? Open thine eyes and see thy God is not before thee!
He is there where the tiller is tilling the hard ground and where the pathmaker is breaking stones. He is with them in sun and in shower, and his garment is covered with dust. Put off thy holy mantle and even like him come down on the dusty soil!
Deliverance? Where is this deliverance to be found? Our master himself has joyfully taken upon him the bonds of creation; he is bound with us all forever.
Come out of thy meditations and leave aside thy flowers and incense! What harm is there if thy clothes become tattered and stained? Meet him and stand by him in toil and in sweat of thy brow._

Don't give up  You are not alone.


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

I generally skip or skim over many of your posts (and others). They just seem to wordy to me, and I often don't agree with the thoughts presented and don't choose to make another wordy reply, since I'm not good them, for the most part.

However I did like what you had to say here! We are all sinners, and short of what has been handed to us through costs that we cannot imagine or bare.

I'm not speaking against denominations or faiths, but as a child. There are good and there are misleading faiths and sects. We need to seek wisdom to discern such.

Just this evening, I watched some high cumulous clouds to the east. the sun was shining brightly against them, and_ I wondered who could doubt the majesty of what we are given? What a gift we have to appreciate such things! I feel sorrow for those who can't._



Laura said:


> Welcome to the American Church of Mr. Potato Head.
> 
> The Church, The Bride of Christ, are the people who follow in His footsteps doing the Will of the Father. It is not a building.
> 
> ...


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

My son goes to church in a rodio arena, and the classes are called roundups


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

I'm not a regular churchgoer by any means. The churches I attended in my youth had fly-in missionaries, and were non-denominatinal, but tended torward Baptist leanings?When the boys were young we attended several different ones, while I seeked the perfect church? My brother finally woke me up to the fact, that there might have been some "near perfect" till I walked through the door. It's not about a denomination, it's about a faith, and a willingness to seek what we cannot see, or fully grasp.I'm a beginner seeking knowedge, but it's there for our taking.


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

It is human nature to want to be with people who are like us.......it usually feels more comfortable.

Some churches seem to take that to an extreme........and seem to have forgotten what the reason is for their existence...........new attendees seem to have to 'look' like them, 'act' like them, 'talk' like them.........and some churches have a doctrinal 'litmus test' before they will 'accept' anyone 'new.'

Bill....just thinking


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## okiemom (May 12, 2002)

God is always with you. Just ask and he will answer if you will listen. the key to problems are within us.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

I like the UU church myself. I've been a member for many years. anyone is welcome. we do have a lot of doctors,lawyers and teachers but lots more also. most I think had left other churches as I had. no dress code either. you could wear jeans with the knees out or dress to the nines. I was always dressed well because that was my way of life from a child. none of my friends were. my friend Virginia came one day with a t shirt inside out. I asked her why and she said it was dirty on the right side. ~Georgia.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I went to the church I go to now, from the git go, in overhalls, white shirt and tie. I think I am going to experiment with not wearing a tie or fastening the top button as I now have trouble singing. Nobody said a word, and now one or 2 others wear overhalls. One always.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

course, some 25yr ago, a preacher there asked me to leave cause I had got divorced. I did, and came back when he left.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Where ever two shall meet in his name, there he will be. You need to seek out a PERSON of GOD, not a building (church). You have to find YOUR faith. A "Church" just keeps you steady on your path. "Helps" keep you from wandering, or losing your way, lets you know you are, when you don't realize it on your own....James


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

that's a prime example of why I left the main stream churches years ago. some snot-nosed kid preacher trying to tell me how to run my life.~Georgia.


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## Ramblin Wreck (Jun 10, 2005)

What James/jwal10 said. Can't like a comment from this computer, because it kicks me off HT for some reason. Technology is wonderful when it works.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Jesus said:
> 
> Matthew 9:12-13
> On hearing this, Jesus said, âIt is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: â
> ...


I am very sorry that this happened to you. I only pray that the church that we call home would not turn a blind eye to someone who is in any kind of need.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

vicker said:


> We've always been in the last days. These last days really aren't that different from all of the past last days. We're still young, if you ask me. Of course that is just another guess.


 
This caught my eye and IMO you are correct. I see the homes we live in, the clothes we wear, the cars we drive, the food we eat, the movie theaters, places to eat out, and on and on and on and I think to myself that although we should always try to live our lives to be prepared for the Lord to come and take us home I don't believe we have seen anywhere near the suffering that is spoke about in revelations. IMO we are in a warning mode. Fix it or else.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Church should be a place were believers gather to share what THEY did during the week according to what their god called them todo. TO be encouraged by ohters and bounce ideas how they can do it better or what ever.. Not set there and just listen. It should be noisy with groups of conversation , sharing. IT should be a place where thy bring in new people, introduce them and discuss how they can be helped and encouraged. IT should be the place where Moses hands are held up so the war can continue.. Preaching and relating the gospel should be done on the street while doing what you were called to do. Regulars should be coming with question about what they have sudied and read and ho it relates an ddiscuss it amongs themselves. there can be two and many more discussions going on over the same scripture and the revelation of meaning is different to both people.

The modern church is a place to lose some money and absolve yourself of responsibility


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

jwal10 said:


> Where ever two shall meet in his name, there he will be. You need to seek out a PERSON of GOD, not a building (church). You have to find YOUR faith. A "Church" just keeps you steady on your path. "Helps" keep you from wandering, or losing your way, lets you know you are, when you don't realize it on your own....James


Absolutely! I love our church and I hope it is truly all I hope it is. We are fairly new here and just learning about the folks that worship in this church. So far it has been wonderful but if it turns out to not be what we need we will search again and in the meantime worship together in our home. To us just as Jwal said it just keeps you steady. Sometimes we need a little extra push to keep moving the direction we want to go. To keep building a stronger relationship with God. 

We left a lovely little church a year or so ago when conversation in church turned to what you have, I have, they have or have not. It just wasn't what we were looking for. To hear a Christian tell the congregation that they and their DH have worked so hard to get what they have and turn and see families that we know have worked just as hard and are struggling hurts my heart. Usually the latter never came back and it happened several times. 

God never asked us to understand he only asked us to trust. I think we are all put on different roads whether easy or hard for reasons someday when we get our reward we will understand. Stay steadfast for yourself and family and don't let others discourage or sway you.


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## katy (Feb 15, 2010)

"TNH, The modern church is a place to lose some money and absolve yourself of responsibility."

That statement may very well describe 80-90 % of our churches today, a sad situation.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> At one of my lowest spots in the last two years, I called and emailed 5 pastors at 5 different churches, expressing my brokenness and desire to find help from The Church, and not a pill bottle or secular counselor...........and NOT ONE called or replied?
> 
> I don't understand.


My last husband had been a deacon and elder in a Lutheran church for many years prior to the time I knew him. He also served as superintendent of the church's K-12 school.

He said one day, in an unguarded moment, the pastor confessed to him that he had entered the ministry because he thought it would be an easy job. Preach on Sundays and Wednesdays, visit the sick, perform the occasional wedding or funeral. No need to break a sweat or get your hands dirty! He also liked the reverence with which he was treated when he went about in public wearing a clerical collar. 

My ex was deeply shocked by this admission, and greatly disillusioned by other things he saw and heard in that church. At the time I knew him, he no longer was a believer.

Incidentally, the minister eventually got in trouble for taking unauthorized leave time. He was having the church secretary cover for him, and slipping her money from the petty cash fund in repayment. Shortly thereafter, he received a 'call from God' to go serve at a different church. Coincidence? I think not.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Well, we had a drunk for a preacher,and his drunkidness and his health killed him. His wife copped money from the local fire station till they finally kicked her out. Then she started doing it here, and running up tabs at the local gas station till the owner told us about it and wanted to be paid. We kicked her kindly out of that job. Now were trying to get her to get her stuff moved outa the parsonage, in which she had between keeping 4 big white dogs, and I heard 18 cats. She herself has moved into a trailer but she hasn't room for alla her stuff, and owes the church a BUNCHa money which she aint repaying and she don't want to put her stuff in storage and pay on it. We want to get the parsonage cleaned in case we find a preacher, but with only with a doz there and me leaving, its possible they'll just shut the doors. They don't want to fix the church issues. They don't want to hold church in the area which name escapes me that the preaching is done.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

I've lived here for 14 years. I once counted 17 churches within about a 2 mile radius. Dont know or never have ever heard from one of them


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

so true what Willow mentioned. I had several (when we were at a meeting one night) say that to me. they took it because it was a easy job and one of the wives said "we'll never be out of a job" can't get much better than that" I had 3 cousins who were preachers. dad use to say of 2 of them. they couldn't do anything else. all they had was the gift of gab so they became preachers. years later they were both booted for embesselment. course that's not to say they're all like that. I do know some lovely ones. ~Georgia.


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## seagullplayer (Nov 6, 2008)

First step to get help from a Church might be to step foot in the door.

But I guess it might just seem easier to throw a rock.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

seagullplayer said:


> First step to get help from a Church might be to step foot in the door.
> 
> But I guess it might just seem easier to throw a rock.


 
But don't you think that maybe a hand reaching out to someone who sends a message needing support might encourage someone to make the next step into the church?


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

seagullplayer said:


> First step to get help from a Church might be to step foot in the door.
> 
> But I guess it might just seem easier to throw a rock.


Is this an example of why so many churches are fading away????

Is this an example of expecting the "new person" to act in a certain way......as opposed to the church reaching out to someone who is in pain??????? :shrug:


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Our little church has paid bills for folks that have never set foot in the door ,because they were truly in need . Our preacher works a job other than his church duties and am sure he is not preaching for an easy way in life . He is one of the few that don't ask what the pay is .When he started he said to give him what ever the Lord directed and that would do just fine . One in a hundred .


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## skeeter (Mar 23, 2013)

Laura Zone 5,
I think the answer you are seeking can be found by pursuing the Lord. Be warned though, the closer the Lord, the more you will change.

I have prayed that you find fellowship and the answer that you seek.
Blessings


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

seagullplayer said:


> First step to get help from a Church might be to step foot in the door.


The incident I shared in this thread, was* after *I had been going to a church, seeing a pastor / marriage counselor, going to Sunday services, and going to adult Sunday school. This is also where I was given detrimental advice......

I have walked my slim self into each and everyone of the churches that I emailed the pastors.
(2) of those on the list, I was a regular attender for more than 1 year.
(1) of those on the list, is the church I was Baptized in.
(1) on the list was a church, I have never graced the doors of.
(1) on the list was the church that I was doing the Dave Ramsey classes.

I am saying in my 25 mile radius of my home, the churches operate in a manner that is counter to Scripture.....and it's just wrong. 
And I don't know why, or if it's like this everywhere?



> But I guess it might just seem easier to throw a rock.


No rocks, just questions. Just trying to understand if it's like this everywhere, or just my area?


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

pm me if you want to go down a path of truth.


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## bstuart29 (Jul 11, 2006)

Yes many churches have lost their way and what their duty is it's not just to help people in need (which is a big duty of there's) but it's also to share the gospel and help build people's faith up and keep it strong. Some of the problem is many want to just hear what makes them feel good or what they want to hear not the truth and what the 'need' to hear. Churches can and should help everyone they can but people have to be willing to ask and accept that help. We grow a large garden at my church but sadly much of the bounty the needy don't take so it is used by people at the church. I couldn't imagine not going to church it not only allows me to worship God but it allows me great fellowship with others and I can help build someone up if they need some support. In a few words the duty of churches is to help both spiritually and financially when the need arises.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Last night I thought a lot about this issue and as someone else stated since moving here we have never had a pastor from a close church come and visit us before we attended their church. Now granted we live far in the woods. We have had them come by after we attended. 

I remember many years ago in a small church in OK we would make up welcome baskets for new neighbors in the area. It was a country church so there were only a handful of newbies in a years time but we thought it was fun to welcome them to our church and our community. You know there were very few that didn't come at least sometimes. We always invited all of the local folks to all the special dinners, holidays, etc whether they attended regularly or not. When we were new in that area the preacher came by at least every other week and was even known to do some fishing with the kids and husband if they were down at the pond. Yanno, I do miss those days and think maybe we should try to bring them back.


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## Kristinemomof3 (Sep 17, 2012)

If you are in Lafayette IN, lmk, I would love to share our church family with you. I'm sorry that you have not gotten a response. I think some churches are so focused on their numbers and not really helping people. It's sad really.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

newfieannie said:


> so true what Willow mentioned. I had several (when we were at a meeting one night) say that to me. they took it because it was a easy job and one of the wives said "we'll never be out of a job" can't get much better than that" I had 3 cousins who were preachers. dad use to say of 2 of them. they couldn't do anything else. all they had was the gift of gab so they became preachers. years later they were both booted for embesselment. course that's not to say they're all like that. I do know some lovely ones. ~Georgia.


"Chicken eaters" is what the old timers called them, every time a preacher showed up a chicken was killed for dinner.


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## seagullplayer (Nov 6, 2008)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> The incident I shared in this thread, was* after *I had been going to a church, seeing a pastor / marriage counselor, going to Sunday services, and going to adult Sunday school. This is also where I was given detrimental advice......
> 
> I have walked my slim self into each and everyone of the churches that I emailed the pastors.
> (2) of those on the list, I was a regular attender for more than 1 year.
> ...


I didn't mean it to come off as that hard. Its just that you see alot of people complaining about "churches" without even attending one of their own. My point was, seek help first at the Church you attend.

If these Pastor's knew you, I would have thought you would have gotten some type of response. Even if they only feel qualified to offer you prayer in your time of need. I am unclear as to what type of assistance you where asking for.

To answer your question, there are bad churches everywhere, but there are ones that do their very best to obey the Lords calling.

We help all kinds of people that will never attend our congregation. We pay bills for people in need that we don't know. We make every effort to try and be good stewards of the money the Lord has intrusted us with, but when there are kids or the elderly involved, we often look the other way. I know we get taken advantage of at times, but that is between them and the Lord.

Our Pastor is Bi-vocational (Has a full time job outside the church). That does not stop him from helping all he can and visiting all he can. You would have gotten some type of response from him, I am confident. 

My advise would be to:
1) Pray for guidance.
2) Attend a service at one of the churches you think might help.
3) Ask the Pastor to visit with you after the Service and explain your need.

(If the church has a Sunday evening Service, go then.)

I just said a prayer for you, don't stop knocking.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Laura-5, there are many of us who've been treated badly by the "churches" when we became divorced women. What's even worse than their treatment of us, our cheating husbands do not lose their position at all.

Shake the dust off and WALK! You know the truth now, follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Here are the Scriptures given to me by the first woman who made me aware of this issue. I was still married when her cheating husband divorced her. She was a SAHM homeschooling, Sunday school teacher, and her husband was screwing around with women in the church. He is still an elder. I found her in a panic one day, she needed firewood. I gave her a pile of what I had, it wasn't very good. 

She told me years later when I became divorced I was the ONLY person who ever helped her in those first years. Her life is very good now.

Hosea 2:19
Isaiah 54:5

You have a new husband now and he loves you very much. Walk with him and Ignore Mr. Potato Head and his hired hands. Their sheep are stupid.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Hey Laura! I&#8217;m gonna speak my mind here(I mean ramble), exposing my neck for the Christian bashing edit but here goes. Much of the reason for your disappointment is that the church is not what God intended to begin with. Which is understandable because humans screw things up and ignore their divine-ness. Like others have said, the church is the BODY of Christ&#8212;NOT NOT NOT a building or a television studio. The church is in the body of a human being and in the soul&#8212;WE WE WE are the temple! I believe that the present day (and through history) belief and practice of building churches and making that the &#8220;official&#8221; expression of the body of Christ is idolatry plain and simple. Sure people will say the building is only the place we come together and meet and deny it. But take away the building, the programs, the money to support all this and the people are lost in how to &#8220;do&#8221; Christianity. So often the building becomes a monument to Super Pastor&#8217;s Awesome Skillz At Growing A Church Please Get Your Free Mocha For Your First Time With Us Aren&#8217;t We Awesome We&#8217;re SO Biiiiiiiiiiig!(homage to the American Dream, start with bootstraps n build an empire). This also includes such techniques of conversion as the crusades and the Battle Hymn of the Republic and food for penitence.
I grew up in the church, twice on Sunday. It was a tight knit family, which was cool, but like all families it had the dysfunction too that was never addressed because otherwise they were such good &#8220;givers&#8221;. My husband went to seminary and was an evangelical pastor for a few years (you know what that makes me ha), but ran up against politics and good ol boy crap and got spit out for having a spiritual backbone. He never recovered from that, and it broke my heart getting a big dose upside the head of what the guys in charge are really like behind the curtain. Sure there are truly godly people in leadership and they are scarce and precious indeed and are hogtied much. You keep spit polishing an idol to perpetuate it and this is the stuff that happens. Sure I&#8217;ve had hurtful experience, but it also opened up my eyes to the naked emporer and showed me what true Jesus-ness is all about. 
Most of what I call my &#8220;true&#8221; Christian friends&#8212;the ones that really get it, call themselves Christian and live it IMO&#8212;don&#8217;t&#8217; go to church or are part of an informal house church. They understand the &#8220;wherever two or three are gathered&#8221; thing. The body is as freakin simple as that.
Some of the most &#8220;Christ-like&#8221; people I know aren&#8217;t card carrying Christians. Maybe it happens cuz they aren&#8217;t busy/distracted idol worshipping the building. They have considered the words of Jesus and decided it was a good thing to LIVE. For what it&#8217;s worth I am loathe to call myself a Christian because of this idol worship. I feel a stab of fear, &#8220;I&#8217;m backsliding!&#8221;&#8230;but then I think, is the right label what it takes to be real? Does a deer know we call it &#8220;deer&#8221;? NO, it simply IS a deer in its fullness regardless of what we call it. 
My grandfather always told me his church was the woods. Out there he could hear God talk clearly and understand better without all the rules and toeing the line and do this get that. Out there beyond being judged for a sinner&#8217;s quotient by the tilt of the hat or a sip of root beer(because &#8220;beer&#8221; is in the name and therefore BAAAAD). He said church shut God up in to a Jack in the Box&#8212;turn the crank with prayer and offering$ and UP! He pops with a big grin and some shock-n-awe. I think it&#8217;s interesting that I turned out like my grandpa, I sure got helladose of &#8220;turn the crank&#8221;. But then, the Truth endures huh. And for those who would say I don&#8217;t&#8217; participate in (the right kind)corporate worship and miss out&#8212;ANY time I am with a human being expressing joy and thankfulness with abandon for being alive that is worship(IMO) of the Whole Thing&#8212;I don&#8217;t&#8217; care what name you call it. 
I say read the Bible and simply ask God to guide you and be ready to be open to WHATEVER comes. If you know a truly alivelovingwise PERSON go to them. Preferably a friend. Even if all they do is hold you. That is dang fine medicine right there. Probably the best.
And a note about professional counselors, IMO. I have cleaned for several that were all supportive and wonderful to their clients and absolute witches to their toilet cleaner (me). I have a fear of pro counselors for this reason (rational or not). I seek out my alivelovingwise friends, vomit, then they tell me they love me and we go dancing. Works pretty well! Goes without saying I bear my shower of vomit as well for them. 
Thanks for coming today to Wyld Thang&#8217;s Church of Flaming Sinners. There will be a potluck and sinning out in the woods after the service. I mean singing. BYOB! And a friend!
PS, back when I still believed in the &#8220;building&#8221;, I showed up for volunteering at my son&#8217;s 2nd grade classroom. I arrived to find chaos as the teacher and the class had just been told a student had been shot with her whole family by her father in a murder suicide and the school was papering windows and locking doors against the press. I knew many of the students attended the church I was going to so I ran to the office, called the church and asked the secretary to tell the pastors to please pray RIGHT NOW for the teacher and students and those who were caring for the kids. She said &#8220;well ok, I&#8217;ll write a note and leave it in the Pastor&#8217;s box&#8221;. Um, yeah.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

wyld thang said:


> Hey Laura! Iâm gonna speak my mind here(I mean ramble), exposing my neck for the Christian bashing edit but here goes. Much of the reason for your disappointment is that the church is not what God intended to begin with. Which is understandable because humans screw things up and ignore their divine-ness. Like others have said, the church is the BODY of ChristâNOT NOT NOT a building or a television studio. The church is in the body of a human being and in the soulâWE WE WE are the temple! I believe that the present day (and through history) belief and practice of building churches and making that the âofficialâ expression of the body of Christ is idolatry plain and simple. Sure people will say the building is only the place we come together and meet and deny it. But take away the building, the programs, the money to support all this and the people are lost in how to âdoâ Christianity. So often the building becomes a monument to Super Pastorâs Awesome Skillz At Growing A Church Please Get Your Free Mocha For Your First Time With Us Arenât We Awesome Weâre SO Biiiiiiiiiiig!(homage to the American Dream, start with bootstraps n build an empire). This also includes such techniques of conversion as the crusades and the Battle Hymn of the Republic and food for penitence.
> I grew up in the church, twice on Sunday. It was a tight knit family, which was cool, but like all families it had the dysfunction too that was never addressed because otherwise they were such good âgiversâ. My husband went to seminary and was an evangelical pastor for a few years (you know what that makes me ha), but ran up against politics and good ol boy crap and got spit out for having a spiritual backbone. He never recovered from that, and it broke my heart getting a big dose upside the head of what the guys in charge are really like behind the curtain. Sure there are truly godly people in leadership and they are scarce and precious indeed and are hogtied much. You keep spit polishing an idol to perpetuate it and this is the stuff that happens. Sure Iâve had hurtful experience, but it also opened up my eyes to the naked emporer and showed me what true Jesus-ness is all about.
> Most of what I call my âtrueâ Christian friendsâthe ones that really get it, call themselves Christian and live it IMOâdonâtâ go to church or are part of an informal house church. They understand the âwherever two or three are gatheredâ thing. The body is as freakin simple as that.
> Some of the most âChrist-likeâ people I know arenât card carrying Christians. Maybe it happens cuz they arenât busy/distracted idol worshipping the building. They have considered the words of Jesus and decided it was a good thing to LIVE. For what itâs worth I am loathe to call myself a Christian because of this idol worship. I feel a stab of fear, âIâm backsliding!ââ¦but then I think, is the right label what it takes to be real? Does a deer know we call it âdeerâ? NO, it simply IS a deer in its fullness regardless of what we call it.
> ...



Can I copy this??


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I think that Christians who really "get it" are not very common. Often you find only one or two or none in a church. When it happens that a church has many, that is a wonderful thing, but it rarely lasts long. Churches are full of human beings, and that says all that needs to be said. Being a preacher is a tough job and many fall to pride and ego, or maybe that is why they became a preacher to start with. Perhaps it is best when you see how alone you are in your suffering and, instead of turning to your friends or other humans, are forced to turn to God. You would not be there in this place if your heart were not going in the right direction. Prayer and fasting, fasting and prayer, sister  Spend time alone with God when you can.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

TNHermit said:


> Can I copy this??


fire at will


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

wyld thang said:


> Hey Laura! I&#8217;m gonna speak my mind here(I mean ramble), exposing my neck for the Christian bashing edit but here goes. Much of the reason for your disappointment is that the church is not what God intended to begin with. Which is understandable because humans screw things up and ignore their divine-ness. Like others have said, the church is the BODY of Christ&#8212;NOT NOT NOT a building or a television studio. The church is in the body of a human being and in the soul&#8212;WE WE WE are the temple! I believe that the present day (and through history) belief and practice of building churches and making that the &#8220;official&#8221; expression of the body of Christ is idolatry plain and simple. Sure people will say the building is only the place we come together and meet and deny it. But take away the building, the programs, the money to support all this and the people are lost in how to &#8220;do&#8221; Christianity. So often the building becomes a monument to Super Pastor&#8217;s Awesome Skillz At Growing A Church Please Get Your Free Mocha For Your First Time With Us Aren&#8217;t We Awesome We&#8217;re SO Biiiiiiiiiiig!(homage to the American Dream, start with bootstraps n build an empire). This also includes such techniques of conversion as the crusades and the Battle Hymn of the Republic and food for penitence.
> I grew up in the church, twice on Sunday. It was a tight knit family, which was cool, but like all families it had the dysfunction too that was never addressed because otherwise they were such good &#8220;givers&#8221;. My husband went to seminary and was an evangelical pastor for a few years (you know what that makes me ha), but ran up against politics and good ol boy crap and got spit out for having a spiritual backbone. He never recovered from that, and it broke my heart getting a big dose upside the head of what the guys in charge are really like behind the curtain. Sure there are truly godly people in leadership and they are scarce and precious indeed and are hogtied much. You keep spit polishing an idol to perpetuate it and this is the stuff that happens. Sure I&#8217;ve had hurtful experience, but it also opened up my eyes to the naked emporer and showed me what true Jesus-ness is all about.
> Most of what I call my &#8220;true&#8221; Christian friends&#8212;the ones that really get it, call themselves Christian and live it IMO&#8212;don&#8217;t&#8217; go to church or are part of an informal house church. They understand the &#8220;wherever two or three are gathered&#8221; thing. The body is as freakin simple as that.
> Some of the most &#8220;Christ-like&#8221; people I know aren&#8217;t card carrying Christians. Maybe it happens cuz they aren&#8217;t busy/distracted idol worshipping the building. They have considered the words of Jesus and decided it was a good thing to LIVE. For what it&#8217;s worth I am loathe to call myself a Christian because of this idol worship. I feel a stab of fear, &#8220;I&#8217;m backsliding!&#8221;&#8230;but then I think, is the right label what it takes to be real? Does a deer know we call it &#8220;deer&#8221;? NO, it simply IS a deer in its fullness regardless of what we call it.
> ...


post of the decade....:thumb::grin:

YHWH loves nature..he made the earth and garden of eden first..then humans.he thought it up..so hes the original tree hugger naturalist type.you know i been studying bible a bunch and can point out many things that people just turn their heads from.they dont want to hear it or test what they think they know.

biblical pangea land mass was a tropical rain forest and Jerusalem was dead center...go figure.

if Yeshua/jesus showed up at the door at most of these churches he would be turned away.

search out what a Nazzarite vow was and see what was done with the hair during vow and afterwards.Samson was given vow in the womb.any way one look and people would call them hippie.i better stop now.


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

Gotta agree - I enjoyed WT's post more than any I think I've read in 12 years on this forum.

Don't let your church shut God up in to a Jack in the Box!!

LauraZone5...

I saw this thread here and thought it would just drop like a lead balloon.

Man was I wrong. Shows what I know.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Boy do I love man hair!


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

want to know some truth about tithes....this will shake what you have been taught or believe about tithes.once again search your heart for truth and ask the father to show you truth.another words...test everything for yourselves.i am finding truth about everyday.


[YOUTUBE]8CaMMHvrAZc[/YOUTUBE]


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

wyld thang said:


> Boy do I love man hair!


i dont have much up top...but i think i could do fine with a mid torso beard braided and a bone stuck in it.....grrrrr....:grin:


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

by the way the torah is the first 5 books of the bible....its what Yeshua and Paul and all the others were teaching back in their day.there was no new testament then.

the Talmud was orale tradition of mans law b jews...they tried to hammer Yeshua over not washing his hands before eating.he told them it wasnt his fathers law it was their tradition therefore it didnt matter.just paraphrasing here...you can look it up for exact words.


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## BlueRose (Mar 7, 2013)

LauraZone5 Thank you for starting this thread. I have been wondering the same thing.

WyldThang thank you for your answer Some things make a lot of sense now.


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## sherry in Maine (Nov 22, 2007)

good thread guys.
I dont know if I am a 'christian', but am doing my best to live the way I read about in parts of the Bible.
I have tried twice to ask folks to kind of take my special kid under their wing and school her about Christianity. I guess I partly wanted to add to her community of folks who love her, will guide her, help her.
I am either asking the wrong folks, or they are at a loss of what to do becuase of her special issues. Cant blame them (and I'm not).
One who would have helped became someone who I felt 'obligated' to, and I really dont want to start on that path.
Besides, I didn't know if she'd sit still, or any of that other stuff.
I finally realized that I just would keep doing what I'm doing (comic book Bible, talking about some issues on a basic level, etc) and then I dont need to figure out what questions to ask the experts.
I am not 'religious' but I am spiritual.
I can see the kindness that Jesus preached about in many folks. Others, are just full of crap.
Hopefully, my kid will be around the kind people in the years I'm not here. (which I hope doesn't happen for many many decades! Still got stuff to do)


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

if you want to see a preacher turn red and ask you to leave ask him two things.

why are you celebrating easter/ishtar....the fertility goddess also of love and war. ...look up how the eggs were colored.make you gag.for those that dont know...pesah pr pesh is passover.there is no easter in bible.

christmas....its nimrods birthday...the one given credit for building the tower of bable.the original christmas tree.ever wonder why the good book says come out of her my people.the her is Babylon......hmmm.

*Ezekiel 8:14*

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord&#8217;s house which _was_ toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.




heres an example they were worshiping others in the house of YHWH.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

watch this...if you dare.


[YOUTUBE]Zv2RXvdEp6s[/YOUTUBE]


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

last year i seen the letters YHWH and it set me on path i had no idea was coming.i found truth and still finding truth each day.here it is in paleo hebrew











look here.....












*The picture above is a photo of Psalms 119:59-64 in the Dead Sea Scrolls which are a collection of Hebrew Scriptures that date back 2000 years. Note Yahweh&#8217;s name in the ancient Hebrew script while the rest of the text is in a more modern Hebrew that was used at the time. 


http://www.forhisname.com/new-page-1-13/
*


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## skeeter (Mar 23, 2013)

Wyld Thing...right on (is that still ok to say that old 60s slang)
Thanks y'all for your postings. 
I want to bless all of you with a Jewish blessing, hope you don't mind 

24 The Lord bless thee, and keep thee: 25 The Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: 26 The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
Num 6:24-26 (KJV)

Also, God showed me this verse today and I think it is relevant to this discussion:
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 
2 Tim 4:3-4 (KJV)

Selah


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

Shalom skeeter.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Thanks for coming today to Wyld Thangâs Church of Flaming Sinners. There will be a potluck and sinning out in the woods after the service. I mean singing. BYOB! And a friend!


Now, there is a church even I could be down with! :hysterical:


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

one thing i dislike about these modern preachers is they stand up there and pound the podium and tell you you are going to hell ..but they never say they are sinners too.

scripture says for ALL have sinned and fall short......these preachers like to talk about Paul....but Paul even said about himself...i am the worst offender....Paul was honest.

scripture says the most righteous is like a filty rag ...and for those that dont know...the filty rag refers to a used menstrual rag.

there are no good.....look at what yeshua/jesus said

*Luke 18:19*

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none _is_ good, save one, _that is_, God. 



i want to be taught...not yelled at....criticized for every action....told i am going to hell.....especially when the ones criticizing have done the same or are doing the same.

theres very few that want to teach the very deep meaning of scriptures.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

[YOUTUBE]EVVKuVID9TI[/YOUTUBE]


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

theres paleo hebrew all across north america.....but people dont talk about it.

i am copying some post i done awhile back i thought some might find interesting...

heres part of one..

heres a video showing phrases in native american based on the letters of YHWH.it looks alot like those thought patterns in paleo hebrew.historians say that no one alive could talk or understand paleo hebrew...but i dont agree...i think its still can be heard and used by the ones keeping their native american roots alive.the way they say these words just so happens to match the way many rabbis in middle east think that ancient paleo hebrew was spoken.people can call me a nut job all they want...i dont care...last year i seen the word ...YHWH and it stired something inside my heart to know what it meant...not even knowing it was ancient hebrew.it lead me to read the bible and travel down a path of great discovery about the world,history and mostly myself.

[YOUTUBE]dpztvjBhhb4[/YOUTUBE]


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

a old post.....


for a good long while now i have been reading the bible...not a regular bible...one that has most of the names of people and certain other words restored in paleo hebrew and more modern hebrew. now i am just a dumb ******* and it was painful to read.then one day i looked at it and could read it pretty decently....thats when i started seeing relations of words and etymology.

the meaning of all the names directly relate back to name of the creator in bible and i see it in all kinds of native american words.the last wild indian was in california...he walked out and told his was ishi....well thats one letter from a paleo hebrew word...my memory is blank right now on what it was without looking it back up in my bible....but i think it was a word that men man.my next read of bible i will be filling it with notes.

the true name of creator what we know as god..was ..Yahoowah...YHWH or Yah for short.....the tribe this indian came from was the Yahi tribe.....see the name of god of israel in there?

heres a link about him..

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Ishi

p.s. most of these things i see and conclusions i came to my own and started researching a bit only to find many others were or are doing the same thing.

Yah is all over in words of native americans....looking back in paleo hebrew Yah....was focus of all the main names....the name joshua means Yah is salvation....all the other names are Yah is this or that etc etc.....also Yeshua/jesus means yah is salvation...or salvation is yah.depending on how you want to look at it since ancient hebrew was read right to left..instead of left to right.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

a old post you might find interesting....



heres more about the name of the indian and what i was eluding to in previous post... _Ishi_ means "man" in the Yana language of the Yahi tribe.


i got my study bible out and searched for what i was trying to tell earlier.

'ish OR 'isyh in hebrew means man also

'ishshah.... (eesh-SHAH) ...the HCSB translation is woman because it resembles the word for woman in several Semitic languages.

if you wanna get ya head sideways...get out a Strong's concordance book and start reading and searching. 

the name that most call Eve in the bible is actually Hawwah

what most call easter is from the word ishtar....the Babylonian fertility goddess...notice the ish relation...some say ishshah means female bride too.


hope you enjoyed more ******* ramblings


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

Seems like OP's problems come under the admonition for believers to bear each other's burdens. Not try and fix things, but to provide the kind of emotional support that helps folks to take things a day at a time; to be able to get a new grip every morning and face another day. God handles the problem, but we need to hold each other up and build one another up. Those helping receive as much blessing as the one helped. This help should come from individuals, whether a church becomes involved or not.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

i have seen this guy on tv but never listened to him.i found this and he seems like a teacher.he talks about all the original names and titles i have found that very few know or understand and i am still learning myself.like terms elohim...adonai....abba..el shaddi....its all very interesting and to me i find i understand more with teaching in this type or manner.


[YOUTUBE]b-KWP-UtGY0[/YOUTUBE]


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

The Full Counsel needs to be taught.
The Hell Fire and Brimstone, and The Grace, Mercy, and Love.
It's all there.
And it should not only be taught from the pulpit, but LIVED by Believers.

1 Corinthians 13

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 
My talk is meaningless if I do not WALK in love.

If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 
I can quote Scripture till the cows come home, I can believe deeply, but if I do not love, I am nothing.

If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
I can do good works from sun up to sun down, but if I do not love......it's for NOTHING. So, what is this "love" that God speaks of?

4 Love is patient, 
love is kind. 
It does not envy, 
it does not boast, 
it is not proud.
It does not dishonor others, 
it is not self-seeking, 
it is not easily angered, 
it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. 
Four times, the word 'always' is used.
Always is a word that means, always. No matter what.
Always.

But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
Grow up. Stop just sitting in a pew, singing a few songs, and walking away feeling warm and fuzzy. Get your hands dirty. Loving people is messy business.
But the results are amazing......

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. *But the greatest of these is love.*
It's all here. The rest is just filling in the details.

Would you take a horse, that has been abused, that is no in good condition, that spooks easily......would you take in that horse, and immediately put him to work giving pony rides?
Or would you take him in, feed him, nurture him, give him time to heal, THEN he will not only be ready to work, but he will WANT to work, from the bottom of his little horsey heart, because someone in The Name of God extended a hand, and showed His Love, and he can wait to give that same love to others?


Doesn't that make sense?


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

i see healing in LZ5.

you are stronger today than yesterday.....tomorrow you will be stronger than today.



p.s. sorry for thread rambling...you know how my mind wanders.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

elkhound said:


> i see healing in LZ5.
> 
> you are stronger today than yesterday.....tomorrow you will be stronger than today.
> 
> ...



But what about those days that one is not so strong?
When it's '2 steps forward, 4 steps back'?
No one is there to catch you before you hit the ground, or help you up after you went head-long into the dirt?


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> But what about those days that one is not so strong?
> When it's '2 steps forward, 4 steps back'?
> No one is there to catch you before you hit the ground, or help you up after you went head-long into the dirt?


just one example



*Deuteronomy 31:6*

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the Lord thy God, he _it is_ that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.




also remember Job....he lost everything...and was afflicted..


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

*Hebrews 13:5*

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

5 _Let your_ conversation _be_ without covetousness; _and be_ content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

this is not an overnight fix.....BUT....you are better than 2 weeks ago.....and 2 weeks from now will be better than now.sure there will be down moments..you probably have a few all night crys too.its all part of the process of healing.be encouraged LZ5....

*Matthew 5:4*

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

4 Blessed _are_ they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

wyld thang said:


> Hey Laura! I&#8217;m gonna speak my mind here(I mean ramble), exposing my neck for the Christian bashing edit but here goes. Much of the reason for your disappointment is that the church is not what God intended to begin with. Which is understandable because humans screw things up and ignore their divine-ness. Like others have said, the church is the BODY of Christ&#8212;NOT NOT NOT a building or a television studio. The church is in the body of a human being and in the soul&#8212;WE WE WE are the temple! I believe that the present day (and through history) belief and practice of building churches and making that the &#8220;official&#8221; expression of the body of Christ is idolatry plain and simple. Sure people will say the building is only the place we come together and meet and deny it. But take away the building, the programs, the money to support all this and the people are lost in how to &#8220;do&#8221; Christianity. So often the building becomes a monument to Super Pastor&#8217;s Awesome Skillz At Growing A Church Please Get Your Free Mocha For Your First Time With Us Aren&#8217;t We Awesome We&#8217;re SO Biiiiiiiiiiig!(homage to the American Dream, start with bootstraps n build an empire). This also includes such techniques of conversion as the crusades and the Battle Hymn of the Republic and food for penitence.
> I grew up in the church, twice on Sunday. It was a tight knit family, which was cool, but like all families it had the dysfunction too that was never addressed because otherwise they were such good &#8220;givers&#8221;. My husband went to seminary and was an evangelical pastor for a few years (you know what that makes me ha), but ran up against politics and good ol boy crap and got spit out for having a spiritual backbone. He never recovered from that, and it broke my heart getting a big dose upside the head of what the guys in charge are really like behind the curtain. Sure there are truly godly people in leadership and they are scarce and precious indeed and are hogtied much. You keep spit polishing an idol to perpetuate it and this is the stuff that happens. Sure I&#8217;ve had hurtful experience, but it also opened up my eyes to the naked emporer and showed me what true Jesus-ness is all about.
> Most of what I call my &#8220;true&#8221; Christian friends&#8212;the ones that really get it, call themselves Christian and live it IMO&#8212;don&#8217;t&#8217; go to church or are part of an informal house church. They understand the &#8220;wherever two or three are gathered&#8221; thing. The body is as freakin simple as that.
> Some of the most &#8220;Christ-like&#8221; people I know aren&#8217;t card carrying Christians. Maybe it happens cuz they aren&#8217;t busy/distracted idol worshipping the building. They have considered the words of Jesus and decided it was a good thing to LIVE. For what it&#8217;s worth I am loathe to call myself a Christian because of this idol worship. I feel a stab of fear, &#8220;I&#8217;m backsliding!&#8221;&#8230;but then I think, is the right label what it takes to be real? Does a deer know we call it &#8220;deer&#8221;? NO, it simply IS a deer in its fullness regardless of what we call it.
> ...


 
Agreed! You put it well yet I am conflicted. I am a sinner and grew up in the middle of situations that were out of my control yet I pay the price even today. It wasn't until I was married with my children that I began to really want to feel Gods love. I always believed strongly in the Lord but after my father was killed in Vietnam mother married a man that was not religious at all. Daddy was so until I was 4 I had been in the church. 

When my youngest was born we were baptized along with the children. I began to want to learn more and more. I listened as the preacher taught the sermons and then I would go home and research on my own in the Bible. I didn't really ask others to explain because I felt I could learn more by reading and understanding it the way it was written. 

The church was a place that I felt opened the questions for me to find answers. Many times I would feel my heart hurt as I saw those who said they believed hurt each other as well as strangers. I even worked with some troubled teens for a while. One was beaten in the name of the Bible. It broke my heart again but I had to remember it was not the Bible that beat this sweet boy, it was the man! 

It is not that I do not agree with what you wrote at all I just feel there are good churches and good pastors out there. I always loved the fact that my favorite of all time (Pastor Hogarth) actually told us one Sunday, "don't just take my word for it, I want you to go home and get your Bibles and read it word for word." He had me from then on. 

Maybe we have just been lucky in these little country churches we have found but all in all it has been a good experience. I guess I choose to be naÃ¯ve that way. I keep religion simple in my mind...I believe, I read, I love, and I try to serve. Beyond that I am not getting tangled up in the rest.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

There are a whole bunch of people that will tell you how you should be,live and give you all kinds of "wisdom" and wise sayings, 
For me find me someone willing to spend the time and answer, debate my questions. Be able to see from my point of view ( that which is what I've been called or put on earth to do) and see why I see things the way I do and logically and intelligently tell me where I am wrong or agree if I am right.
I've looked to God and waited for a person. No one has shown up. And I will say that group therapy can couch things in very appealing and emotional ways. So I would be very careful of it


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

This is where Karma and "intention" comes in...BE love and compassion out to the world, and it will come back to you. Be it in any small way you can.


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

Maybe the Amish have a point.......they don't have church buildings...at least around here, they meet every other Sunday......at someone's house or barn.......it is not 'secret' which house .....all the buggies parked in the yard.......and usually in the afternoons there appear to be some pretty good games of softball or volleyball. And they tell me that in the evening the teens have their own "sing-along.


I do not put the Amish on some pedestal.......like any group of people,, there are some good ones.....and some that I would not do any business with.........but, then we are all sinners....


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

ps, just BE. Being so you can get is illusion.


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

I have heard that some churches have posted signs out front......"Perfect People not Allowed"


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

billooo2 said:


> I have heard that some churches have posted signs out front......"Perfect People not Allowed"


a perfect one showed up once......they killed him....nailed him to a cross.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

This is the best "mission statement" I've ever seen--and bless our hearts we're a bunch of heathens! Last year when I went for the first time, I seriously thought, "I have finally found my church". I'm serious!


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

wyld thang said:


> Hey Laura! Iâm gonna speak my mind here(I mean ramble), exposing my neck for the Christian bashing edit but here goes. Much of the reason for your disappointment is that the church is not what God intended to begin with. Which is understandable because humans screw things up and ignore their divine-ness. Like others have said, the church is the BODY of ChristâNOT NOT NOT a building or a television studio. The church is in the body of a human being and in the soulâWE WE WE are the temple! I believe that the present day (and through history) belief and practice of building churches and making that the âofficialâ expression of the body of Christ is idolatry plain and simple. Sure people will say the building is only the place we come together and meet and deny it. But take away the building, the programs, the money to support all this and the people are lost in how to âdoâ Christianity. So often the building becomes a monument to Super Pastorâs Awesome Skillz At Growing A Church Please Get Your Free Mocha For Your First Time With Us Arenât We Awesome Weâre SO Biiiiiiiiiiig!(homage to the American Dream, start with bootstraps n build an empire). This also includes such techniques of conversion as the crusades and the Battle Hymn of the Republic and food for penitence.
> I grew up in the church, twice on Sunday. It was a tight knit family, which was cool, but like all families it had the dysfunction too that was never addressed because otherwise they were such good âgiversâ. My husband went to seminary and was an evangelical pastor for a few years (you know what that makes me ha), but ran up against politics and good ol boy crap and got spit out for having a spiritual backbone. He never recovered from that, and it broke my heart getting a big dose upside the head of what the guys in charge are really like behind the curtain. Sure there are truly godly people in leadership and they are scarce and precious indeed and are hogtied much. You keep spit polishing an idol to perpetuate it and this is the stuff that happens. Sure Iâve had hurtful experience, but it also opened up my eyes to the naked emporer and showed me what true Jesus-ness is all about.
> Most of what I call my âtrueâ Christian friendsâthe ones that really get it, call themselves Christian and live it IMOâdonâtâ go to church or are part of an informal house church. They understand the âwherever two or three are gatheredâ thing. The body is as freakin simple as that.
> Some of the most âChrist-likeâ people I know arenât card carrying Christians. Maybe it happens cuz they arenât busy/distracted idol worshipping the building. They have considered the words of Jesus and decided it was a good thing to LIVE. For what itâs worth I am loathe to call myself a Christian because of this idol worship. I feel a stab of fear, âIâm backsliding!ââ¦but then I think, is the right label what it takes to be real? Does a deer know we call it âdeerâ? NO, it simply IS a deer in its fullness regardless of what we call it.
> ...


 Can we all break chocolate covered peanut butter rice crispy squares together? I'm in.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Scripture is quite specific on what "church" is, the qualifications and gifts of the offices, how it's supposed to be done and what the goals are.
Where's the Fruit? Growing the numbers of the Sunday morning benchwarmers willing to suck milk for 30 years is not Fruit.

Even Jesus called the Saturday morning crowd a den of vipers.

The doctrine of Jesus Christ of the Bible is simple enough for children to understand. Yet so many don't make reading a priority in their lives. We are accustomed to passive entertainment provided in the hymn sandwich, and won't question the doctrines of men.

In my travels I found the Open Bible Church affiliations to be the most sound. The pastors have their own income outside the congregation so they are not Hired Hands. They are Bible Only, if you do not agree with a teaching, you are free to openly debate using the Bible ONLY. Members and attendees are encouraged to seek and operate fully in their Gifts of the Holy Spirit, be who they are in Jesus Christ. 

They are naturally small in size, as when the gifts and fruits are full, they plant new churches. Sometimes they shrink because Mr. Potato Head is more attractive.

Sometimes Jesus wants us to rely only on Him. At first it feels like we're walking alone in the wilderness. Walk it in blind Faith and without Fear. This is how you grow from "believing" in God into the Knowledge of God.

You're going to be okay, Laura-5. You ARE okay. We've walked this path too, we know the fear of the unknown future. We ARE the ones who Jesus loves, His Word says it is the Will of the Father we are cared for. Don't let anyone, not even yourself, get in the way of this.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> But what about those days that one is not so strong?
> When it's '2 steps forward, 4 steps back'?
> No one is there to catch you before you hit the ground, or help you up after you went head-long into the dirt?


He does not always catch us: I have learned a great deal from my falls! I suspect he let me fall on those occasions on purpose.

But, SOME of the time he caught me, and he has always, ALWAYS given me a hand up!


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Terri said:


> He does not always catch us: I have learned a great deal from my falls! I suspect he let me fall on those occasions on purpose.
> 
> But, SOME of the time he caught me, and he has always, ALWAYS given me a hand up!


 20/20 hindsight, I see I got in His way, or in my own way out of fear.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I have a personal hate affair with that footprints in the sand story


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

vicker said:


> I have a personal hate affair with that footprints in the sand story


 Me too. I prefer this one.

*Butt Prints In The Sand*

*One night I had a wondrous dream,
One set of footprints there was seen,
The footprints of my precious Lord,
But mine were not along the shore.*

*But then some stranger prints appeared,
And I asked the Lord, "What have we here?"
Those prints are large and round and neat,
"But Lord they are too big for feet."*
*"My child," He said in somber tones,
"For miles I carried you alone.
I challenged you to walk in faith,
But you refused and made me wait."*
*"You disobeyed, you would not grow,
The walk of faith, you would not know.
So I got tired, I got fed up,
and there I dropped you on your butt."*
*"Because in life, there comes a time,
when one must fight, and one must climb.
When one must rise and take a stand,
or leave their butt prints in the sand."*

_author unknown_​


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Oh man! That is excellent!  that's what I'm talking about.


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## Honeybadgeress (Jun 25, 2013)

:blossom: What, pray tell, is your brokenness about??
You know Jesus heals the brokenhearted. I don't recall there was a "church" in that statement.
You know, The Bible and it's Power is for YOU- because that's what Jesus came to see to it that the Power God grants us through His Word, by making us "adopts" as His Kin, was restored to us for use. Let us continue this conversation, and maybe we can get to the bottom of it, and get you healed. I have heard, the REASON for mass congregations, is so that God, Himself, may show out in ways HE desires, that He doesn't on a 1 to 1.:benice:


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

elkhound said:


> watch this...if you dare.
> 
> 
> [YOUTUBE]Zv2RXvdEp6s[/YOUTUBE]



Incredible, My Brother.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

When Jesus healed the cripple, He told him to get up and walk, and he did. Then he ran, shouting joy in his healing.

We don't get to read about the ones who refused to get up.

What about those first people Jesus healed? Their "Church" was a Den of Vipers calling the Miracles of Jesus sorcery. Those who followed Jesus watched him be tortured and crucified. They kept their heads down and their mouths shut lest they be next, even Peter.

What's different about people and the world today? Not much.

Laura-5, 3 years ago I was so ill, I was waiting to die. DH in his twisted religiousness was taking "Till Death Do Us Part" to the extreme by trying to kill me with stress. Raging, lying, game playing, manipulating, destructiveness, withholding of basic needs. Then he picked DD up at a church function and left the state. He left me with a few bucks and a broken down vehicle, and his lying never stopped. 

I got up and walked and I stay out of the walls. The pastors offered moral support, they knew what he was about, their congregations turned their backs on me. 

I was not supposed to be happy my husband abandoned me. I was delirious with joy when the judge ordered DD home with me. I roared with laughter when the sob brought his GF to town introducing her as the woman god really intended as his wife months before the divorce was final. His ADULTERY set me FREE! GOD is GOOD!

By time the divorce was final, my blood pressure was normal and stable, kidney failure was healed and organs healing. Retained fluid was gone! The calcium deposits in my spine had dissolved and I was out of pain. My long, straight hair that had fallen out grew in thick and curly. Even those I'd known for years did not recognize me unless I told them who I was. I'd swept the takers and xh's allies out of my life and walked alone with Jesus, OUTSIDE the walls.

Now 3 years later, I can tell you who my friends are. Those who operate in their gifts of the Holy Spirit, show Fruit and walk outside the walls, those who do not do Churchianity. We talk about going back, but we can't quite get it together enough to make the building time slot a priority. There are those who CAN do church and still walk in the spirit and I admire them. Yesterday, for the first time I had help from the "church." 10 teens from a youth group showed up and helped us gather and stack 6 cords of firewood.

I continue to count my blessings and focus on what I HAVE, have faith God will continue to restore what was stolen from me and destroyed. That is HIS promise. My job is to stay out of doubt and fear, and away from those who want to lay those chains upon me. It is not easy and I often do not know what is going on around me. I don't always HAVE to know, sometimes I have to TRUST. UGH!

But to those who know the Before and After me, DD and I are the living, breathing, walking proof of the Power of God, the living proof that Jesus came to set the captives free, heal from afflictions and protect from their enemies.

Okay, too much wordiness for some of you. 


SUMMARY:

We cannot step out in the footsteps with Jesus until we are ready to give up the BS of the PEOPLE around us. God's opinion is the ONLY one that counts. Until we can focus on HIM, and listen and answer only to His voice we will always be ninnies walking the fence not knowing which way we're going to fall.


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

Laura said:


> When Jesus healed the cripple, He told him to get up and walk, and he did. Then he ran, shouting joy in his healing.
> 
> We don't get to read about the ones who refused to get up.
> 
> ...


a

Thank you for the inspiration and encouragement.
It reminds me of a verse....I think it goes like.......'For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.'


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

billooo2 said:


> a
> 
> Thank you for the inspiration and encouragement.
> It reminds me of a verse....I think it goes like.......'For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.'


 
or this one...Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil for I am the biggest baddest etc etc that walks this (my) road 

I had a friend tell me maybe I was a cold hearted witch in the course of walking on my road. that made me sad he would see that in me. but now I realize I had to find that cold hearted with inside me in order to survive and thrive. to detach and be objective and git r done. it's just the yin yang...opposites needed for balance. in churchianity we put everything into black/white, bad/good on all those opposites, but that throws things out of balance and fubars our skills for dealing. not saying you have to be mean, just saying you have to find that inner rebel yell--God put it there for a reason!


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## Buffy in Dallas (May 10, 2002)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> At one of my lowest spots in the last two years, I called and emailed 5 pastors at 5 different churches, expressing my brokenness and desire to find help from The Church, and not a pill bottle or secular counselor...........and NOT ONE called or replied?
> 
> I don't understand.


I'm sure that they would have called you within minutes if you mentioned you had lots of money.


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## Centralilrookie (Jul 12, 2012)

LZ5- Great thread! A topic that doesn't get enough attention. It's nice to see others have the same feelings about the way some church's are more show than go. The idea of going to church, becoming involved and trying to live by the teachings in the Bible are shadowed by so many things that it is truly kind of scary.


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