# teen birth control fanatsy



## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

need science to get on this .
a shot that will prevent pregnancy until a second shot is given .
first shots free and given at puberty , second shot can be purchased only after completing high school for $500 , $200 with a college degree 
shot would be given to both males and females 

let the:grumble: begin


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Would this be mandatory (ie big brother makes everyone get the shot) or something that is left up to the parent's choice?


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

probly have to be mandatory otherwise you;d have a million "oh my kids would never babies"


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

PyroDon said:


> need science to get on this .
> a shot that will prevent pregnancy until a second shot is given .
> first shots free and given at puberty , second shot can be purchased only after completing high school for $500 , $200 with a college degree
> shot would be given to both males and females
> ...


where do i sign my kids up at?


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Hmmmm.......okay, I'll play.

Cost to have the 2nd shot would not be covered by insurance, and would have to be a set price - say, $1,000 - only eligible to receive it after turning 18 years old. That way people who can't afford a baby wouldn't be able to afford the shot.

Then you grant a discount - 20% off with high school diploma, 30% off if you graduate high school with a 3.0 or higher unweighted GPA, 40% off with any accredited college diploma (trade school, 2 year associates, BA, etc).

If you sign a waiver stating you will not file for welfare, SSI, food stamps, or any form of gov't assistance for the next 5 years, the shot would be free. (I had to sign something like this before the US would allow me to adopt my DD from India...guess the govt is okay with me popping out my own kids to get welfare for, but they don't want me adoping kids from other countries, bringing them here, then getting welfare for them.)


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Now we're getting some where 
can we also require a repeat of the first shot if they do file for welfare ?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

PyroDon said:


> need science to get on this .
> a shot that will prevent pregnancy until a second shot is given .
> first shots free and given at puberty , second shot can be purchased only after completing high school for $500 , $200 with a college degree
> shot would be given to both males and females
> ...


Just out of curiosity, why would we need to give this shot to males? I havent noticed males getting pregnant very often. At least not in my area, your state may be different.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Just out of curiosity, why would we need to give this shot to males? I havent noticed males getting pregnant very often. At least not in my area, your state may be different.


because Im an equal opportunist and dont have any doubt that some guys would seek out illegals just so they could be baby daddies and brag look my junk works . just look in some cities you'll find plenty with that attitude.
besides then you'd reduce the chance of a smart girl hooking up with a total loser


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I'd like to see parenting classes taught in high school along with home finance.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

PyroDon said:


> besides then you'd reduce the chance of a smart girl hooking up with a total loser


Ummm, if they are smart.... they wont be hooking up with any guy, or havent you noticed that we are all total losers? Dont believe me??? Ask any married woman!


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

PyroDon said:


> Now we're getting some where
> can we also require a repeat of the first shot if they do file for welfare ?


Totally agreed, if you file for welfare or unemployment benefits you get the first shot again before they approve your application..... 

In case of unemployment, you have to be off unemployment and working a job for 6 months before becoming eligible for the 2nd shot again.

In case of welfare, you have to be off the welfare rolls for 6 months and sign the "5 years of no gov't assistance" waiver before you become eligible for the second shot again.

Price of the 2nd shot would be the same as originally, with discounts given for education level and GPA/academic achievement.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

So nobody teaches accountability any more?


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

accountability obviously doesnt work all the time .
didnt work for the queen of conservatives now did it


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

PyroDon said:


> accountability obviously doesnt work all the time .
> didnt work for the queen of conservatives now did it


and who's that?


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Sonshine said:


> So nobody teaches accountability any more?


Some people do, lots of people don't. Plenty of parents are falling down on their responsibilities to their kids these days.....


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> and who's that?


He's trying to turn his fantasy rambling into a Palin bashing


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> He's trying to turn his fantasy rambling into a Palin bashing


the two of you are simply attempting to side track from the topic and bait better luck next time go troll else where


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## debbydoo1966 (Jan 15, 2007)

I'm pretty sure my parents would of lined us kids up for the shot.

They were both 17 yr old parents. Life was hard for them in the beginning. No welfare. My dad worked 2 jobs. 

They really only had 2 rules that they preached to us all the time, don't get pregnant, and we better not be brought home by the cops.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

I believe that a lot of the birth control problem in this country is in the high cost of contraceptives. With birth control pills typically costing $40/month, that's going to cost around $500/year. Clearly, that's enough of an expenditure that the burden of maintaining birth control prescription purchases is more than some people can afford.

To address that problem, most of the world has a product called centchroman available. It comes from India but is marketed all over Asia, Europe, Africa, and South America, but not in the USA. The FDA has not turned it down, but the manufacturer has never made application for approval.

Centchroman is a non-hormonal contraceptive that is taken weekly, and has similar effectiveness numbers to hormonal birth control pills. As you can see in the following link, a two month supply is 81 cents, which is only about $5/year. Everyone can afford that, even people in third-world countries.

http://www.alldaychemist.com/supplier.php?id_supplier=88

Here's more information about it.

http://www.gynaeonline.com/centchroman.htm

Centchroman does not have the same dangers of blood clots and cancer susceptibility that hormonal birth control pills have. Moreover, since it is non-hormonal centchroman does not make women crabby, gain weight, or retain water the way hormonal pills can. That will also encourage more women to take them who are avoiding hormonal birth control pills because of unwanted side-effects.

If we had centchroman available in this country I believe that a lot of this problem would evaporate.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Conflicts with the constution. Freedom to practice religion. Send me to forms (if needed) to op out. 

Also -freedom of "choice" 

STD might become higher due to the natural results of sex would diminish.

This is an attempt to take away freedoms and allow choices of personal rights given from an authority higher than Man (let's just say nature) to be removed.

From my position education of values and responceablity has worked when applied by both minors and parents. Minors educated in sex and results of sex and parants not kow towing to social pressure of being cool or PC and standing firm that minors need a strong foundation with goals. 
Now parents who opt to have values other than mine are free to opt in with your plan but to mandate such measure for the whole population in an effort to reduce teenage births is unacceptiable to me and I would do more than speak out I would have to disobey such a policy with out violence but in personal practice and lend a hand where ever I could to support others in my position.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

oHHHH nevada shame on you 
women never get crabby oops gripy whole different problem 
can ya tell Ive been married a loooooooooong time


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

PyroDon said:


> oHHHH nevada shame on you
> women never get crabby oops gripy whole different problem
> can ya tell Ive been married a loooooooooong time


Well, you don't tell them that they're crabby out loud -- those are inside words. By the way, you don't want to tell them that they're gaining weight either.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Well, you don't tell them that they're crabby out loud -- those are inside words. By the way, you don't want to tell them that they're gaining weight either.


learned that one the hard way while i was still sleeping .
wife came in flopped in bed I guess is said ya need to do sit ups or something not real sure but I was instantly and rudely awakened .
shouldnt be fair to use sleep talking .


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> He's trying to turn his fantasy rambling into a Palin bashing


What? just because she had a Downs Syndrome child and didn't Abort it?


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

sad sad stalking and baiting attempt
not unexpected from the dog pile but sad non the less
cue the other pack members


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

PyroDon said:


> sad sad stalking and baiting attempt
> not unexpected from the dog pile but sad non the less
> cue the other pack members


I didn't bring it up. Besides I think BC shots for everyone would be a good thing. Especially people on Goverment assistance and for Countrys that we have to send food and supplys to. No Take the shot- No Food or $$.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Sounds good, but I would never make it mandatory. Maybe pay people $100 to voluntarily get the first shot, and make them pay for the second like you said. I probably still wouldn't support the plan, especially if it was government funded/operated but it is an interesting idea. Maybe one of the population control groups could work on coming up with such a shot. They're probably already trying.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

fishhead said:


> I'd like to see parenting classes taught in high school along with home finance.


Ditto this. Plus, remember the classes that had dolls that were programed to cry at inoportune times...had to do stuff to them like feed, diaper, etc. Didn't that show a decrease in PGs?

I'm too old, thank the Lord, but IF I were to have to care for a teen gal now, I'd put bc pills in her oj EVERY am, & NOT tell her she was taking them.

Sorry, flame away, but I'd DO IT!


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

And who would pay for the side effects and illnesses 25yrs down the road from these shots? What about the Constitution? Who would make the decision for a teen to get them? They aren't old enough at that age to consent to a chemical injection that might cause some sort of cancer 20yrs in their future.
I see it as eugenics because it chooses who and who is not allowed to reproduce.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I'd go one further and give it to anti-vaxxers. Make them take a biology class and maybe Anatomy and Physiology before they can get the second shot.


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## tgmr05 (Aug 27, 2007)

What about all the folks who find they cannot have children after having the two shots? Can they sue the living snot out of the govt for making them barren???


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

As long as it's a fantasy idea anyway, make it side-effect free.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

No way!!!! Better, make a side effect that women under 50 think that men over 60 are hot stuff!


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## tgmr05 (Aug 27, 2007)

Still, you have a certain percentage of the population that cannot reproduce, or have a lot of trouble doing so. Giving them a shot at puberty, and another later, who can prove they could or could not before the shots???? Yet another not well thought through fantasy.....


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> the two of you are simply attempting to side track from the topic and bait better luck next time go *troll* else where


*You *brought her up, but don't let fact stand in the way of a chance to do some name-calling


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> What? just because she had a Downs Syndrome child and didn't Abort it?


He's talking about Bristol


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## Stephen in SOKY (Jun 6, 2006)

These shots would have SIGNIFICANTLY improved my sex life as a teenager/young adult. No worries about pregnancy.......sign me up!


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I'd go one further and give it to anti-vaxxers. Make them take a biology class and maybe Anatomy and Physiology before they can get the second shot.


I like it! We could also offer a steep discount on the 2nd shot if they sign a form stating that they will follow standard vaccination protocol for all their children.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

bluemoonluck said:


> I like it! We could also offer a steep discount on the 2nd shot if they sign a form stating that they will follow standard vaccination protocol for all their children.


:goodjob:


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

I'm good with it.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

I didn't get whether this was going to be mandatory or not.

If it is, the answer is no.

Also, is this drug going to be safe? We aren't going to find out some time down the road, they won't ever be able to have children, or if they do, they have problems. These women/men won't have cancer in 20 years?

Also, will the children know what it is for? I don't know how many young people even give pregnancy a thought - but for the few who might still do so, this seems like it is giving the green lite to irresponsible behavior.

Who is going to pay for the treatment of the diseases should sexual activity increase - assuming it could?

I'm wondering what people who choose to not vaccinate have to do with this.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Pregnancy is not a death sentence. Some STDs can be. I'd not worry about pregnancy but about the fact that my child feels the need to have sex before they are ready and that they are not protected against STDs (which you can get even with a condom).


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Trixie said:


> I'm wondering what people who choose to not vaccinate have to do with this.


Nothing, but meddlers love to meddle in "other peoples" lives.


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

Hmmm. Okay.... devil's advocate here.

My father has an eighth grade education. Why? Because he had to leave school and get a job to help support his family (so they didn't have to suffer the shame of welfare) when my granddad got sick.

Because he started his working life young, he also married young and had his first child, my eldest brother, at 17. He subsequently raised eight kids to adulthood. He never took a dime of public money, never utilized social assistance of any sort, and raised eight hard-working kids who have never been on any kind of government assistance, either. All of us took summer jobs from the first summer before high school, and have mostly worked, non-stop, ever since. 

So, what you're saying is that, had this "program" been in place, none of my siblings, or for that matter, nieces or nephews, or myself, would exist.

Age and income do not determine whether or not one can be a good parent and a responsible citizen. Being taught a sense of responsibility for one's self does. There is no reason for a shot that keeps you from conceiving, and less reason for the GOVERNMENT to have control over who gets the "antidote". Much, MUCH less, but I won't get into the dangers of an Orwellian society here. 

One of the best mothers I've ever known was a teenaged mother who worked two jobs in order to keep a roof over her child's head; the worst mother I've ever known was well into her thirties, and had more money than I'll ever see in my lifetime.

Do I think that something needs to be done about multi-generational exploitation of the social welfare system? Absolutely. Do I think that taking someone's ability to procreate away from them as a matter of course, and only "allowing" them to have it back when they meet government criteria for being a "good parent" is justifiable? I'm afraid not.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

I think that, at the nugget of this dilemma, is the question: If you remove the possible lasting physical consequences of premarital sex, is it still "wrong?"

I think that an argument could be made that it is those very consequences that have given casual sex the traditional social taboos that it has had.

Remove those physical consequences (including associated communicable diseases) and society&#8217;s attitudes toward sex might be quite different.

But, it has been mainly the fear and punishment for young, female unattached pregnancy that has driven our attitudes through history.


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## sticky_burr (Dec 10, 2010)

cant you just give your kids those under skin implants at say 13 or 14? well the girls anyway


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

sticky_burr said:


> cant you just give your kids those under skin implants at say 13 or 14? well the girls anyway


Or just teach them to wait?

(BTW - I'm the mom of 18 and 21 year old college daughters who are virgins so I know it CAN happen)


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## tgmr05 (Aug 27, 2007)

Oggie said:


> I think that, at the nugget of this dilemma, is the question: If you remove the possible lasting physical consequences of premarital sex, is it still "wrong?"
> 
> I think that an argument could be made that it is those very consequences that have given casual sex the traditional social taboos that it has had.
> 
> ...


Removing the physical consequences has nothing to do with the sex drive in folks. Using that same thought process, though. What would be wrong with rape? No more physical consequences or diseases, right??? How about sex in bathrooms during school? No more consequences.... Why even bother dressing, anymore.....


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> From my position education of values and responceablity has worked when applied by both minors and parents. .


 From my position people who say that usually end up with pregnant teens


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Tracy Rimmer said:


> So, what you're saying is that, had this "program" been in place, none of my siblings, or for that matter, nieces or nephews, or myself, would exist.


I don't find that to be a compelling argument because of the philosophical paradoxes it creates. There are any number of family members that you could have had, yet didn't through happenstance. You do not miss them since they never existed. Likewise, you wouldn't have missed one of your siblings of he never existed. Your life would nevertheless have been fulfilling.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

zong said:


> No way!!!! Better, make a side effect that women under 50 think that men over 60 are hot stuff!


Come on, the only major side effect in this fantasy is that younger women go for older pudgy guys with gray hair.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

7thswan said:


> What? just because she had a Downs Syndrome child and didn't Abort it?


I am assuming because her daughter had the audacity to become a statistic. Thank goodness no one here lives in a glass house, or they couldn't throw all those stones. I fail to see how if a child gets pregnant DESPITE all her parents' teaching and good examples, it is stillt he parents' fault. Now I can see, if the mom is unmarried, 6 kids from 4 different fathers, and so forth, yup I would call that the parents' (or lack thereof) fault. But a good woman with a good ethical background, who's daughter takes a leap on ehr own? Unless Sarh was in the room, gun pointed at her daughter's head chanting "do it do it do it" it isn't her fault. Plain and simple.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

tgmr05 said:


> Removing the physical consequences has nothing to do with the sex drive in folks. Using that same thought process, though. What would be wrong with rape? No more physical consequences or diseases, right??? How about sex in bathrooms during school? No more consequences.... Why even bother dressing, anymore.....


True, it has nothing to do with the sex drives in folks, and thereby has nothing to do with predation.

But unwanted pregnancy in unwed girls probably had a major role in sculpting many of our attitudes toward sex.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

*Oggie* Maybe - but 'consequences' are another way of saying there are responsibilities associated with most of our actions. 

To me, certainly pregnancy is an important consequence because it means there is another life involved, and STD because of the dangers to society as a whole as it gets passed around.

There are other consequences with casual sex, especially for the young - some older. I have seen far too many young people mistake lust for love and mess up their lives.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mnn2501 said:


> From my position people who say that usually end up with pregnant teens


I used to have a neighbor who believed that. One day he was telling me how his high school aged daughter was required to be home by 9:00, even on weekends. I remarked that she couldn't even attend an entire football game, let alone the after-game dance. He said that he didn't care; she was still required to be home by 9:00. The rest of the conversation went something like this.

Me: What do you hope to accomplish by having her home by 9:00?
Him: To keep her from getting pregnant!
Me: Can't she get pregnant before 9:00?
Him: Well, if she does it won't be my fault!

:stars:


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Trixie said:


> *Oggie* Maybe - but 'consequences' are another way of saying there are responsibilities associated with most of our actions.
> 
> To me, certainly pregnancy is an important consequence because it means there is another life involved, and STD because of the dangers to society as a whole as it gets passed around.


We are in an era in which it, through technology, is possible to almost eliminate the possibility of unwanted pregnancy.

We can, through technology and honest, moral communication, almost completely eliminate the possibility of transmitting disease through sex.

In fact, the taboos and stigmas of sex currently might be responsible for the perpetuation of some of those consequences.
Many of the consequences of the past are no longer consequences.



Trixie said:


> There are other consequences with casual sex, especially for the young - some older. I have seen far too many young people mistake lust for love and mess up their lives.


It is true that there are psychological consequences, but many of them might be mainly a reaction to long-established attitudes based mainly on the fear of young, unattached pregnancy.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

*Oggie* I probably should think about that before I really respond. You might have something - I don't think I could agree - but I might to some degree.

Not sure what 'moral communication' means. I know what it means to me, but not sure what you mean.

I don't, though, believe the psychological damage has as much to do with some moral attitude as some engaging in an act for which they do not have the maturity to see it for what it is.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Posted by Pyrodon:


> sad sad *stalking* and *baiting* attempt
> not unexpected from the *dog pile* but sad non the less
> cue the other *pack members*


LOL

You made the ONLY *political*remark, and have done ALL the silly name calling.

What's truly sad is always ignoring *reality*


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Trixie said:


> *Oggie* I probably should think about that before I really respond. You might have something - I don't think I could agree - but I might to some degree.
> 
> Not sure what 'moral communication' means. I know what it means to me, but not sure what you mean.
> 
> I don't, though, believe the psychological damage has as much to do with some moral attitude as some engaging in an act for which they do not have the maturity to see it for what it is.


By "honest, moral communication" I mean that those involved not lie to each other about either their physical conditions of intentions.

Again, the history of societal attitudes toward sex, and especially young unmarried sex, probably complicates that.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

PyroDon said:


> the two of you are simply attempting to side track from the topic and bait better luck next time go troll else where


How can you side track a topic posted for the sole purpose of trolling?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

PyroDon said:


> accountability obviously doesnt work all the time .
> didnt work for the queen of conservatives now did it





PyroDon said:


> sad sad stalking and baiting attempt
> not unexpected from the dog pile but sad non the less
> cue the other pack members



Don't make veiled baiting comments and be surprised when the bait is taken, then don't complain about it.

You got exactly what you were looking for in a response.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Well the upbringing that I had as well as my siblings shows me first hand that education as to morals, values, and responceablities did along with a mother who was mature (not a dig but as the eldest she was forty when she gave birth to me) and willing to put her children raising ahead of her own enjoyment allowed her to personally supervise us during our teenage years. 

Times are different. She had free time during school hours and she limited working my father made darn good money thus it afforded additional supervision. Did I mind mother having to be so involed --no. I am doing the same for my son. I just asked him about this discussion and his reply was "Do you think I want to have to pay child support for a kid? If I wait Im safe. In his church youth group he has two teens (couple) with a new born they never were involed and transportation is provided for them. It is kinda neat to see the other teens watch and first hand see just the diffculties these two face. At least someone contacted the youth leader and though it might seem that wrong to include these 2 with a church youth group much can be gain for all parties.

I am not blind. My son is 16 he has not had sex. He will be 17 in Sept. I did not date till I was 22 I did go out in groups with chaparons who were chaparons in action not just job description. Know your values live your values.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Oggie said:


> By "honest, moral communication" I mean that those involved not lie to each other about either their physical conditions of intentions.
> 
> Again, the history of societal attitudes toward sex, and especially young unmarried sex, probably complicates that.




I'm sorry, I know I'm being dense - but I don't understand.

I'm assuming you mean anyone desiring to have sex should tell of any diseases? 

Intentions - I'm old, can't remember where I put my dustpan most of the time, but I do remember what the intention (singular) was/is.

If there are any aspects of society - except maybe some parents and churches - that have any attitudes about not having sex - I don't see it.

Everything a person is shown today, movies, TV, music, books, etc, etc., is promoting it.

The one that really gets me is the movie version of 'The Talk'. The parents has the long talk about responsibility, respect, etc. The parent then says 'you will know when the time is right'. Now that's laughable. When is the time right? Most of them are going to tell themselves that right now is the time - they will just be really sure of that.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

*kasilofhome*

Times are very different.

I am so grateful I grew up in the 'repressive 50's. I'm glad everyone, society included was supporting the idea of abstinence.

Of course, it didn't succeed completely - but it certainly helped. I'm not sure what I would have done had I been constantly bombarded with the idea that everyone does it, kids can't help it, it's OK. 

What would the kids had been like if the TV coming into their homes, the movies they saw, the books they read were full of explicit sex, etc?


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

My question is how much biology and economics have to do with our traditional sex mores.

And, if those biological consequences were removed, how might those attitudes change?


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Oh, and for some odd reason, Vanessa Hudgens scares the dickens out of me.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Oggie said:


> Oh, and for some odd reason, Vanessa Hudgens scares the dickens out of me.


Certainly, they might change - but I think it's societal attitudes that have changed, not technology.

You do know there was birth control in the 50's - it's been around for quite some time. I don't mean the pill, shot, etc.

From what we have seen, abortion, welfare to help, I'm not sure biological consequences have much to do with it now. Again, they should since another life is involved, but it hasn't seemed to have much affect.


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## tkrabec (Mar 12, 2003)

PyroDon said:


> need science to get on this .
> a shot that will prevent pregnancy until a second shot is given .
> first shots free and given at puberty , second shot can be purchased only after completing high school for $500 , $200 with a college degree
> shot would be given to both males and females
> ...



free after completing parentng classes


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## Elffriend (Mar 2, 2003)

Oggie said:


> My question is how much biology and economics have to do with our traditional sex mores.
> 
> And, if those biological consequences were removed, how might those attitudes change?


Look at the changes in the 60s after the pill became available.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Elffriend said:


> Look at the changes in the 60s after the pill became available.


And we shed our fur 10s of thousands of years ago, yet still get goosebumps.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> Don't make veiled baiting comments and be surprised when the bait is taken, then don't complain about it.
> 
> You got exactly what you were looking for in a response.


a comment on abstinence
the response of some sure didt look like anything near the topic .
thank for letting us know where we stand


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

tkrabec said:


> free after completing parentng classes


in addition to finishing school ? 
we see constant complaints about teen pregnancy and teen mothers on welfare rolls . this would prevent both of those .
parents would still be encouraged to teach abstinence ( at least every parent ive ever known tries to even those who are willing to supply BC still attempt to prevent the act)


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

PyroDon said:


> in addition to finishing school ?
> we see constant complaints about teen pregnancy and teen mothers on welfare rolls . this would prevent both of those .
> parents would still be encouraged to teach abstinence ( at least every parent ive ever known tries to even those who are willing to supply BC still attempt to prevent the act)


What is your stance on teen pregnancy?
I mean your real stance


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> What is your stance on teen pregnancy?


There's a political position to take on teen pregnancy?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Nevada said:


> There's a political position to take on teen pregnancy?


Who said anything about political?
Seems to me this whole thread was started in order to bash people who don't believe abortion is a good thing and who are tired of supporting welfare cases.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> Who said anything about political?
> Seems to me this whole thread was started in order to bash people who don't believe abortion is a good thing and who are tired of supporting welfare cases.


I thought the thread was about birth control.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Cornhusker said:


> What is your stance on teen pregnancy?
> I mean your real stance


I dont think Ive ever made a secret about the fact that I feel teens are too young and ill equipped for parenting in general .
I know I was which is why I took precautions that protected both myself and the young lady. 
frankly if there was a min age for having kids and I was king to set it , well it would likely be 28 or 30 . at which point we would hope most have grown up enough not to be out partying and hopefully settled enough to at least have a start on a real home .
I was very sexually active as a teen , but unlike many I wasnt foolish.
I knew i was not ready for a family , I knew that before starting a family I wanted to own my home , I wanted to be sure my partner and I had discussed and agred on most subjects concerning family , and i wanted to be very sure we were stable and not going to divorce at the first sign of trouble . So I was 36 when my first child was born and my wife 29.
Now Ive heard people claim they had kids when they were young so they could still play with them Ball etc. funny thing is I spend far more time playing skating and such at my age than they did when they were 20 something. they were too busy . 
Im not one to be overly supportive of teen pregnancy.
If it happens with my child , I will deal with it with all the love and support I give my children now , i wont punish them for an unplanned pregnancy . I will however provide them with every possible method to prevent one .


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Cornhusker said:


> Who said anything about political?
> Seems to me this whole thread was started in order to bash people who don't believe abortion is a good thing and who are tired of supporting welfare cases.


where did abortion come into this from 
heck with this plan there would be no need for abortion and while it wouldnt prevent all welfare cases it would greatly reduce them 
:fussin:


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I thought the thread was about birth control.


According to the title it's all about "fanatsy"


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> According to the title it's all about "fanatsy"


obviously for some its simply an opportunity to poke with impunity

and we return to the topic once again 
the fantasy being that no such shot or pill currently exists though I sure many drug companies are working on producing such prevention

please feel free to discuss the pros and cons 
articulating your views and opinions in a civil manner


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

PyroDon said:


> obviously for some its simply an opportunity to poke with impunity
> 
> and we return to the topic once again
> the fantasy being that no such shot or pill currently exists though I sure many drug companies are working on producing such prevention
> ...


A shot like that would be nice, but you can't medicate or legislate responsible behavior.
that is taught by parents not the "government" and certainly not by the Chicago mob you put so much faith in.
Instead of fantasy, we need to deal in reality.
Y'know..like parents.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> A shot like that would be nice, but you can't medicate or legislate responsible behavior.


Maybe not, but if you remove the financial obstacle I think you'll find that most will make good choices.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

> A shot like that would be nice, but you can't medicate or legislate responsible behavior.


actually its been done for over a century
court ordered medication for mental illness is a reality, as is prison for failing to take medication for certain diseases, manly TB but its on the books for others as well.
Every law on the books is legislated responsible behavior.
Now granted many who should be taking medication for chemical brain imbalances ,dont. Instead they become increasingly paranoid until they have a major break which if they are lucky results in a short hospital stay medication and observation, If they are unlucky they have a break killing or harming someone and end up either in a security hospital or prison for the rest of their life .
In the case of TB they are put in jail and treated then released under the conditions they continue treatment if they refuse they can be held until they comply
ya think the IRS is tough try the CDC


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

PyroDon said:


> the two of you are simply attempting to side track from the topic and bait better luck next time go troll else where


Are you including me on the trolling part? I just made an observation. It seems that we are finding more and more ways to stop holding people accountable for their actions. My response was not politically motivated, but was motivated by the times we live in.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Trixie said:


> I didn't get whether this was going to be mandatory or not.
> 
> If it is, the answer is no.
> 
> ...


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> I just made an observation. It seems that we are finding more and more ways to stop holding people accountable for their actions. My response was not politically motivated, but was motivated by the times we live in.


no (to the non quoted section of your post , sorry Im trying to keep the posts on the topic ten pregnancy and prevention despite the efforts of a very few)

I found your response to be on topic .
I do tend to agree that we do attempt to relieve people of responsibility .
Im all for holding adults accountable, I dont feel the young should be held responsible for the choices of their parents .
My suggestion would be to relieve the children until they were suitably prepared to make a responsible choice on their own. Parents would still be the primary teachers .
I have two daughters my self , Im not about to encourage them to have sex as teens, if they do I would hope they arent saddled with a child years before they are ready band responsible enough to provide and care for it properly


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## tgmr05 (Aug 27, 2007)

How about a shot to keep people thin, or one to keep folks from ever getting drunk, or one to keep folks from becoming stupid.

The sad part is this. Some folks want to force something on everyone. Control. Yet they are scared to death of Christians and mock the mention of abstinence. No one forces you to do anything in abstinence, yet so many are adamantly against it, but want to force you and everyone else into having something done to your body. Talk about odd.....


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

tgmr05 said:


> How about a shot to keep people thin, or one to keep folks from ever getting drunk, or one to keep folks from becoming stupid.
> 
> The sad part is this. Some folks want to force something on everyone. Control. Yet they are scared to death of Christians and mock the mention of abstinence. No one forces you to do anything in abstinence, yet so many are adamantly against it, but want to force you and everyone else into having something done to your body. Talk about odd.....


actually there are pills not shots court ordered for some habitual alcoholics ,
and laws against shots that keep people thin ( such as meth and heroin )
I personally would fully support and lobby for one that would cure stupid but then stupidity is a choice to remain ignorant despite presented facts , education can cure stupidity but the person has to want to learn.
No one here has mocked Christianity or Christians . the majority myself included happen to be Christian. 
Abstinence isnt a Christian only stance by any means , the main problem with it is that according to studies in reality it is far less effective than birthcontrol


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

You are saying that no matter how much it is taught people do not practice abstinence, right?

Because - abstinence is the only 100% sure birth control - like any other, it has to be used.

Since I don't have a young daughter today, I really don't know - but I'm thinking I would not do this. First off, I do think it would be a green light for casual and dangerous sex. There are lots of dangerous and disastrous things involved in having casual sex besides pregnancy. 

Also, I would be afraid it might be dangerous to the child in the long run. Of course, I guess if we are having a fantasy here, we would have one that presented a completely safe medication - right?


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

dont be putting words in my mouth trixie 

Now to play evil advocate I must point out that abstinence is not 100% effective 

You are however correct that like any birth control it has to be used


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

PyroDon said:


> dont be putting words in my mouth trixie
> 
> Now to play evil advocate I must point out that abstinence is not 100% effective
> 
> You are however correct that like any birth control it has to be used


I didn't intend to do that - not sure how I did.

But I know things have changed, but abstinence isn't 100% sure?

Don't tell me it really is in the water? That's a joke, by the way.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Trixie said:


> I didn't intend to do that - not sure how I did.
> 
> But I know things have changed, but abstinence isn't 100% sure?
> 
> Don't tell me it really is in the water? That's a joke, by the way.


well there have been numerous virgin births,A very notable one with an entire book dedicated to the child


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

PyroDon said:


> well there have been numerous virgin births,A very notable one with an entire book dedicated to the child


You are joking, right?

Actually, I thought you were going to bring up those satanic angels that visit in the night or some such thing - never thought of the Virgin Birth. 

Just me, but I'm just pretty sure young women today are really not in danger of immaculate conception - I'm think we are safe there.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ummm, if they are smart.... they wont be hooking up with any guy, or havent you noticed that we are all total losers? Dont believe me??? Ask any married woman!


LMAO!!!!!!! I'l drink to that, bottom's up.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Nevada said:


> Maybe not, but if you remove the financial obstacle I think you'll find that most will make good choices.


In other words, you want me to pay for your lack of responsibility


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Trixie said:


> You are joking, right?
> 
> Actually, I thought you were going to bring up those satanic angels that visit in the night or some such thing - never thought of the Virgin Birth.
> 
> Just me, but I'm just pretty sure young women today are really not in danger of immaculate conception - I'm think we are safe there.


well not just immaculate conception 
fondling or heavy petting have in rare cases resulted births .
so it seems none are 100 % effective 
absolutes are seldom absolute


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

I haven't read all of the responses, but as a parent, my primary concern is my child getting HIV. The pregnancy shot is a good idea, but it might become a "free pass" to have unprotected sex.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> My question is how much biology and economics have to do with our traditional sex mores.
> 
> And, if those biological consequences were removed, how might those attitudes change?


That was the world I grew up in ... after the advent of reliable birth control, but before AIDS. 

Those were some good times!!!


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

PyroDon said:


> well not just immaculate conception
> fondling or heavy petting have in rare cases resulted births .
> so it seems none are 100 % effective
> absolutes are seldom absolute


LOL

I think you're well aware of what abstinence means....the idea is that you ABSTAIN from behaviors that are associated w/sexual intercourse, and that could result in pregnancy.

And yes, the practice of that WILL result in 0% births.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

I think your also well aware that very few practice true abstinence


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

PyroDon said:


> I think your also well aware that very few practice true abstinence


The question isn't whether or not people practice it. The question is whether or not it works IF applied/utilized. If done correctly it works quite well.

Now, this being said, I'm not so naive as to say that should be the ONLY option. But what I have a problem with is when it's not mentioned or discussed at ALL.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Ive known some very free spirited people and Ive yet to meet any who didnt suggest strongly to their children to abstain . Granted it normally comes in the form of waiting until your sure your ready , be sure your really in love and so forth.


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

Now try walking into any school or governmental organization and hearing that. I sure didn't as I was growing up.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Kung said:


> Now try walking into any school or governmental organization and hearing that. I sure didn't as I was growing up.


You came from the wrong generation,
You're part of the after "Woodstock" generation.
I'm from the growing up before "Woodstock" generation, and it was taught then - the little bit of "sex" ed that was in the schools.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

PyroDon said:


> need science to get on this .
> a shot that will prevent pregnancy until a second shot is given .
> first shots free and given at puberty , second shot can be purchased only after completing high school for $500 , $200 with a college degree
> shot would be given to both males and females
> ...


Perfect!!!


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Just out of curiosity, why would we need to give this shot to males? I havent noticed males getting pregnant very often. At least not in my area, your state may be different.


Birth control is as much the man's responsibility as the woman's. And since us women bear the biggest load, it is your turn. Suck it up


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Kung said:


> Now try walking into any school or governmental organization and hearing that. I sure didn't as I was growing up.


Now here I thought that we all agreed that parents were the best teachers .
I went to school back in the late 70s and recall many debates in favor of abstinence . as well discussion of STDs and very very little on birth control .
even the flower child teacher that said sex was a beautiful thing included only if your are truely in love and with a life time commitment. 
Most all of us got the you have to wait , dont do it , abstain message. Now granted most of us ignored it or in some cases it was a little late but we all heard it loud and clear


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

PyroDon said:


> Now here I thought that we all agreed that parents were the best teachers.


They are. Doesn't mean they should be the ONLY teachers.



> I went to school back in the late 70s and recall many debates in favor of abstinence . as well discussion of STDs and very very little on birth control .
> even the flower child teacher that said sex was a beautiful thing included only if your are truely in love and with a life time commitment.


I went to school in the 80's and 90's. I assure you we didn't hear much of that.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Kung said:


> They are. Doesn't mean they should be the ONLY teachers.
> 
> 
> 
> I went to school in the 80's and 90's. I assure you we didn't hear much of that.


It may have been a regional thing I know the same teachers were teaching the same things here in the 80s and 90s when my nephews were in the school .
One abstained the other didnt .
obviously your parents made up for any lack in the school system .
the thing is you can give a dozen children the same information and when asked they will give you a dozen different answers . sadly many will give you the answer they think you want to hear .


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> In other words, you want me to pay for your lack of responsibility


Having affordable birth control doesn't have to cost you anything.

I don't know what my responsibility has to do with it. I've had a vasectomy.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

tkrabec said:


> free after completing parentng classes


**********************************************
'Who' really pays for "free"???:bash:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

copperkid3 said:


> **********************************************
> 'Who' really pays for "free"???:bash:


It's just a shot. It's not like we're buying them a new Mercedes.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Nevada said:


> It's just a shot. It's not like we're buying them a new Mercedes.


finacial cost wise you could vaccinate thousands for far less than the price of a single birth, in theory of course the drug companies would try to charge thousands for a product that cost them pennies to make .


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> It's just a shot. It's not like we're buying them a new Mercedes.


Well, it could be. Right now there is an uproar because there is a shot that is given to moms with at risk pregnancies that cost around $15 each. Because of things going on (all political), the shot's cost will be going up to $1500. So don't doubt that this could be an expensive shot.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

shanzone2001 said:


> I haven't read all of the responses, but as a parent, my primary concern is my child getting HIV. The pregnancy shot is a good idea, but it might become a "free pass" to have unprotected sex.


the shot would obviously not remove all the hazards of unprotected sex but it would stop one major side effect . 
No one is advocating we stop teaching responsibility and educating about dangers . In fact more time could be spent addressing STDs rather than birth control . that in its self might give some reason to abstain 
I know some of those old VD films sure made me be a bit more careful what I got into, so to speak


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

I don't teach my kids to not have sex because of pregnancy or STDs. I teach them not to have sex for their own emotional health and the health of their marriage later. Remove EVERY risk and I'd still teach my children to wait until marriage.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Annsni said:


> Well, it could be. Right now there is an uproar because there is a shot that is given to moms with at risk pregnancies that cost around $15 each. Because of things going on (all political), the shot's cost will be going up to $1500. So don't doubt that this could be an expensive shot.


I read about that issue. They need to do a criminal investigation, for all the good it will do. Those people are too politically connected for a conviction.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Annsni said:


> I don't teach my kids to not have sex because of pregnancy or STDs. I teach them not to have sex for their own emotional health and the health of their marriage later. Remove EVERY risk and I'd still teach my children to wait until marriage.


Are you willing to stop having sex too? Perhaps wait until your kids are ready to get married?

I asked my parents that when they were counseling me not to have sex. When I asked them if they were also willing to give up sex my dad said, "Our sex life is none of your business." I replied, "My sex life is none of YOUR business."


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Dutchie said:


> Birth control is as much the man's responsibility as the woman's. And since us women bear the biggest load, it is your turn. Suck it up


Like I said, I havent seen any men getting pregnant lately.... If the females have had the shot, why bother to spend the money on the men? Its a matter of practicality. Having grown up in a household where dear old dad had himself neutered shortly after I was born, (instead of mom getting spayed) and me having a younger sister and brother...... Yeah, lets be practical with our fantasies if we are going to have them ok?


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Like I said, I havent seen any men getting pregnant lately.... If the females have had the shot, why bother to spend the money on the men? Its a matter of practicality. Having grown up in a household where dear old dad had himself neutered shortly after I was born, (instead of mom getting spayed) and me having a younger sister and brother...... Yeah, lets be practical with our fantasies if we are going to have them ok?


If I werent afraid some one would take it seriously Id make a joke about the timing of the neutering :umno:


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

PyroDon said:


> If I werent afraid some one would take it seriously Id make a joke about the timing of the neutering :umno:


Yeah... I know....  Basically (according to daddy) he opted for the procedure once he realized that he couldnt do any better than perfection.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yeah... I know....  Basically (according to daddy) he opted for the procedure once he realized that he couldnt do any better than perfection.


oh well I'm the result of michigan requiring a prescription for condoms :hrm:


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

PyroDon said:


> oh well I'm the result of michigan requiring a prescription for condoms :hrm:


Now thats just a goofy law right there, I dont care where ya are! :rotfl:


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Are you willing to stop having sex too? Perhaps wait until your kids are ready to get married?
> 
> I asked my parents that when they were counseling me not to have sex. When I asked them if they were also willing to give up sex my dad said, "Our sex life is none of your business." I replied, "My sex life is none of YOUR business."


If that's what it would take, I would. I didn't have sex until my wedding night and my husband and I dated for a full two years before we got married AND we owned a house together for three months before we married. 

As for asking your parents to give up their sex lives, why ask that? They are married. That would be like me telling my 10 year old that he can't drive and him asking me if I'd give up MY driving privileges. That's a pretty dumb argument IMO. Yes, your sex life is your business but as a parent, we have a right to state our opinion - and set rules when you live under our roof. Don't like it? Good - find an apartment and move out.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Annsni said:


> If that's what it would take, I would. I didn't have sex until my wedding night and my husband and I dated for a full two years before we got married AND we owned a house together for three months before we married.
> 
> As for asking your parents to give up their sex lives, why ask that? They are married. That would be like me telling my 10 year old that he can't drive and him asking me if I'd give up MY driving privileges. That's a pretty dumb argument IMO. Yes, your sex life is your business but as a parent, we have a right to state our opinion - and set rules when you live under our roof. Don't like it? Good - find an apartment and move out.


I took a different approach to parenting.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Nevada said:


> It's just a shot. It's not like we're buying them a new Mercedes.


*********************************************
Multiply that times the cost per shot........comes out to......well....
you do the math and tell me if it's a bit more than the cost of a 
new Mercedes or not!!!:shocked:

I guess that YOU won't mind paying for ALL of it then???:Bawling:



But knowing what a spendthrift you are......no doubt you'll try to get it shipped in from overseas.....


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

copperkid3 said:


> *********************************************
> Multiply that times the cost per shot........comes out to......well....
> you do the math and tell me if it's a bit more than the cost of a
> new Mercedes or not!!!:shocked:
> ...


I think I hinted that we should import centchroman from overseas as affordable birth control. Not a bad idea. And I suggest we start girls on birth control young, even if we have to make them in the shape of Fred Flintstone like they do with children's vitamins.

But when considering the cost of contraception it's proper to weigh the cost against the alternative. Considering that welfare is breaking our backs, free or affordable contraception is a screaming bargain.


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## Mooselover (May 4, 2009)

zong said:


> No way!!!! Better, make a side effect that women under 50 think that men over 60 are hot stuff!


????? my X was in his 60's and i'm 49. plenty women appreciate older men so don't give up :kiss:


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## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

Nevada said:


> I think I hinted that we should import centchroman from overseas as affordable birth control. Not a bad idea. And I suggest we start girls on birth control young, even if we have to make them in the shape of Fred Flintstone like they do with children's vitamins.
> 
> But when considering the cost of contraception it's proper to weigh the cost against the alternative. Considering that welfare is breaking our backs, free or affordable contraception is a screaming bargain.


It seem to me that your position is that if the teens/women in question had a choice, they would choose not to get pregnant. Given how Welfare is set up right now, his simply isn't true -- there are a great many intentional pregnancies that happen to teens so that they can get on Welfare. This is a multi-generation problem, and in many cases, the mother of the teen agrees with her daughter's choice.

If there is religious exemption for this shot, I can see more than a few Welfare mothers signing the papers with the full knowledge that their daughters will get pregnant for benefits.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

well yeah if there was a religious abjection waver Im sure there are sects that would sign simply because they think they should be able to marry 14 year olds and start having children. Im a Catholic Im very sure the church would not be the least bit pleased about such a shot. You can also bet that some would want to opt out as you say so they can jump on the government doll. 
which is why you couldnt get the second shot allowing pregnancy if your on the government doll nor can you get on the government doll if you opt out . 
Frankly those who would want to opt out are the ones who need such a shot the most.


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## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

PyroDon said:


> well yeah if there was a religious abjection waver I'm sure there are sects that would sign simply because they think they should be able to marry 14-year-olds and start having children. I'm a Catholic I'm very sure the church would not be the least bit pleased about such a shot. You can also bet that some would want to opt out as you say so they can jump on the government doll.
> which is why you couldn't get the second shot allowing pregnancy if your on the government doll nor can you get on the government doll if you opt out .
> Frankly those who would want to opt out are the ones who need such a shot the most.


But how would you get them to take the first shot to begin with? Once they have that first kid, they're set. If something happened to the first kid, what's stopping her from meeting all the requirements, getting the second shot, and going right back on Welfare?


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

its not about limiting the number of children a person can have its about preventing teen pregnancy until they are more educated and hopefully more responsible .
once you get the second shot you can have all the kids you want . 
the cost of the second shot depends on your education and parenting classes , as was also suggested a waiver would be signed making the person ineligible for five years to sign up for welfare . .


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

PyroDon said:


> well yeah if there was a religious abjection waver Im sure there are sects that would sign simply because they think they should be able to marry 14 year olds and start having children. Im a Catholic Im very sure the church would not be the least bit pleased about such a shot. You can also bet that some would want to opt out as you say so they can jump on the government doll.
> which is why you couldnt get the second shot allowing pregnancy if your on the government doll nor can you get on the government doll if you opt out .
> Frankly those who would want to opt out are the ones who need such a shot the most.


Or you could be like us and think it's an absolutely stupid idea and not be willing to jeopardize our children's fertility because of some dumb government control. I'd opt out and as I said, I have 18 and 21 year old daughters who are both virgins. No need for the shot if your children are raised well and they understand the truth of the matter - not just physical but emotional and spiritual as well.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

PyroDon said:


> its not about limiting the number of children a person can have its about preventing teen pregnancy until they are more educated and hopefully more responsible .
> once you get the second shot you can have all the kids you want .
> the cost of the second shot depends on your education and parenting classes , as was also suggested a waiver would be signed making the person ineligible for five years to sign up for welfare . .


Yes, I think it's a wonderful idea to give the government control over when I can and can't have children. :hair


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## Saffron (May 24, 2006)

Trixie said:


> I didn't intend to do that - not sure how I did.
> 
> But I know things have changed, but abstinence isn't 100% sure?
> 
> Don't tell me it really is in the water? That's a joke, by the way.





Kung said:


> LOL
> 
> I think you're well aware of what abstinence means....the idea is that you ABSTAIN from behaviors that are associated w/sexual intercourse, and that could result in pregnancy.
> 
> And yes, the practice of that WILL result in 0% births.


You can abstain all you want and still get pregnant - if you are raped.



Yvonne's hubby said:


> Just out of curiosity, why would we need to give this shot to males? I havent noticed males getting pregnant very often. At least not in my area, your state may be different.


Personally, I say that only the males should receive this shot. Why?

1 - they are the ones who can impregnate the female, through rape or otherwise, who must then endure the pregnancy whether wanted or not.
2 - the side effects of this shot could carry far more consequences for the females versus the males, hormonal and otherwise
3 - these types of treatments are generally easier to reverse on males versus females
4 - males do not have as many hormonal concerns as females
5 - males are always potent, except in certain men, and can impregnate until death; females have a smaller window of opportunity
6 - this shot would most likely prevent the formation of the items needed to create the pregnancy and therefore could most likely stop a females menstruation, not good for many females


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Saffron said:


> You can abstain all you want and still get pregnant - if you are raped.


Thats quite true, but then my sweet old granny always said she didnt buy into very many cases of rape either. Something about a woman being able to run faster with her dress up than a man with his pants down. :shrug:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Annsni said:


> I have 18 and 21 year old daughters who are both virgins. No need for the shot if your children are raised well and they understand the truth of the matter - not just physical but emotional and spiritual as well.


It's been my experience that most people don't know their kids as well as they think they do.


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## Saffron (May 24, 2006)

I guess I should have stated that I am more a debater - I don't actually agree with this shot being mandatory at all. However, as a potential option? welll, I think there are plenthy of people who should NEVER breed.


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## Saffron (May 24, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Thats quite true, but then my sweet old granny always said she didnt buy into very many cases of rape either. Something about a woman being able to run faster with her dress up than a man with his pants down. :shrug:


FYI - a man does not have to pull his pants down that far in order to do the deed. So yes, he could run quite well with his fly wide open.

I was thinking more along the lines of being attacked, kidnapped, beaten, and raped, and left alive.

I do know of a young 14 year old teen who had it happen. Not the kidnap part, but she was home and he and two friends came to the door, when she opened it they pushed into the home and beat and raped her viciously, then left. They didn't care if she was alive or dead. She survived, with many injuries, and then found out she was pregnant. I don't remember the particulars, but she couldn't or wouldn't have an abortion. She had the child and raised him with help from her mother. He is about 24 now, and a very fine young man.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Annsni said:


> Or you could be like us and think it's an absolutely stupid idea and not be willing to jeopardize our children's fertility because of some dumb government control. I'd opt out and as I said, I have 18 and 21 year old daughters who are both virgins. No need for the shot if your children are raised well and they understand the truth of the matter - not just physical but emotional and spiritual as well.


ya know what most parents who preach only abstinence are called ?
Grandparents 
there are of course a few exceptions but they are in the minority


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Saffron said:


> Personally, I say that only the males should receive this shot. Why?
> 
> 1 - they are the ones who can impregnate the female, through rape or otherwise, who must then endure the pregnancy whether wanted or not.
> 2 - the side effects of this shot could carry far more consequences for the females versus the males, hormonal and otherwise
> ...


You might have a very valid point males tend to have less sensitive reproducive organs , well not exactly how I mean to put it .
But if its given to teen boys and the girl still gets pregnant then ya can start looking at the teachers and preachers .


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## Saffron (May 24, 2006)

PyroDon said:


> You might have a very valid point males tend to have less sensitive reproducive organs , well not exactly how I mean to put it .
> But if its given to teen boys and the girl still gets pregnant then ya can start looking at the teachers and preachers .


I said nothing about teen boys - I think all males should have to have it. Period.

Let me add number 7: it would probably be an easier reversal for males versus females

Therefore - all males should have the first shot. They should only receive the second shot when they and their partner is ready to commit to being parents and meets the other qualifications previously stated. As soon as the female is determined to be pregnant, the male should receive the first shot immediately.

While it may not eliminate all unplanned pregnancy, it will dramtically reduce them, plus since the medical history would be well-known (and probably touted when a couple is trying to conceive) it would be very easy to pinpoint the male perpetrator. The female would be a given.

I also think that it would cut that down as well. Because if the female knows what can happen and is aware that the male is potent, the likelihood is greatly reduced because there will be no support. I also think it will reduce the male as well because of the backlash as well as the penalties imposed on both.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

The question is what do you do about the girls who seek out potent males simply to get pregnant.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

PyroDon said:


> The question is what do you do about the girls who seek out potent males simply to get pregnant.


Send them to ole Donk!


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

There are actually a variety of reason why both women and men set out to create a pregnancy. What I've found is effective is to discuss each of those reasons, then point out how those situations might turn out. The reason why that method is so effective is because some of those reasons are things that kids actually consider by themselves. When they hear you verbalize the exact thoughts that they've been having it gives credibility to what you say.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

PyroDon said:


> You might have a very valid point males tend to have less sensitive reproducive organs , well not exactly how I mean to put it .
> But if its given to teen boys and the girl still gets pregnant then ya can start looking at the teachers and preachers .


You just made my case.... unless EVERY male on the planet has had this shot..... with out the females having it the birthrate will remain basically unchanged... but if only half the females had it... whether any males received it or not.... the birthrate would be cut in half! If all the females of child bearing age received it, for about three generations worth, our population would get itself back under control.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Saffron said:


> I said nothing about teen boys - I think all males should have to have it. Period.
> 
> Let me add number 7: it would probably be an easier reversal for males versus females
> 
> ...


I would say you are incorrect with your assessment here. Once you have one or two males get the "antidote", females having the natural instinct to procreate will seek them out immediately and the males, who have a natural instinct to commit the act leading to procreation will happily accommodate them. You have to remember that unlike the female of the species, very few males actually want children, they just like the process. You also have to remember that one male can "service" hundreds of females, but females get pregnant one at at time.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Nevada said:


> I believe that a lot of the birth control problem in this country is in the high cost of contraceptives. With birth control pills typically costing $40/month, that's going to cost around $500/year. Clearly, that's enough of an expenditure that the burden of maintaining birth control prescription purchases is more than some people can afford.


I don't know. When I was in high school birth control from Planned Parenthood was very cheap - maybe 3-5$ a month? Can't remember. Same with their yearly exams, etc. They did everything a normal "gyno" clinic did, only difference was that they made everything easily accessible and extremely affordable. No sky-high insurance style overpricing, just affordable services offered to those who wanted it in the community.

They also made all sorts of free barrier birth control available to anyone who wanted it. It was kept in the front waiting room and people could walk in and take it.

The resources are out there for those who choose to be responsible, we just live in a lazy society where few people put effort into doing much of anything.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> It's been my experience that most people don't know their kids as well as they think they do.


Well, that's not the case here. We're quite open and when my daughter came to me after breaking up with her boyfriend, she let me know why it was. He was pressuring her into petting. He admitted it to my husband when he confronted him. There was no sex - she wouldn't even let him touch her breast. Yes, I know my kids very well.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

PyroDon said:


> ya know what most parents who preach only abstinence are called ?
> Grandparents
> there are of course a few exceptions but they are in the minority


My daughters know the facts - and know more than many of their peers. We did not allow them into the sex ed in school - we taught them at home. My daughter saw my diaphram in my shower one day and knew exactly what it was. We speak about not only the physical aspect but the emotional as well. Sex isn't just "a into b" and they know that.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Annsni said:


> Well, that's not the case here. We're quite open and when my daughter came to me after breaking up with her boyfriend, she let me know why it was. He was pressuring her into petting. He admitted it to my husband when he confronted him. There was no sex - she wouldn't even let him touch her breast. Yes, I know my kids very well.


Your husband confronted her former boyfriend for wanting to pet? What on earth was the point of that?


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Your husband confronted her former boyfriend for wanting to pet? What on earth was the point of that?


#1 - My husband was a friend of his - or we thought

#2 - My husband had spoken to him when he asked if he could date our daughter. He specifically spoke to him of the physical relationship and counseled him to be careful with that.

#3 - My husband is his pastor.

Yes, my husband confronted him about it. He met with him, counseled with him and guided him. The boy was going through a rough time at home and my husband had already been counseling him through some of it. It was the right thing to do.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Your husband confronted her former boyfriend for wanting to pet? What on earth was the point of that?


actually nevada 
I have daughters , if one comes home and says her BF was trying to pressure her to do something she doesnt want to do . You bet Im going to confront him .
If he pushed her further than she wanted to go Id do a lot more than just confront


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

.....


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

*Yep and right out of the gate we saw how this shot would be used. *Let us decide who will reproduce WE know better...

From post#5


bluemoonluck said:


> Then you grant a discount - 20% off with high school diploma, 30% off if you graduate high school with a 3.0 or higher unweighted GPA, 40% off with any accredited college diploma (trade school, 2 year associates, BA, etc).


 Yep once again the Bias of the College educated rears its head. How can you be so prejudiced as to some how equate College time with worth?


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

those darn elitests wanting people to be educated


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

PyroDon said:


> actually nevada
> I have daughters , if one comes home and says her BF was trying to pressure her to do something she doesnt want to do . You bet Im going to confront him .
> If he pushed her further than she wanted to go Id do a lot more than just confront


I have 3 daughters myself, all grown now. I never actually had that kind of situation to confront, but I always assumed that it was going on. Don't you expect high school aged boys to want to experiment that way? I know that I did.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I have 3 daughters myself, all grown now. I never actually had that kind of situation to confront, but I always assumed that it was going on. Don't you expect high school aged boys to want to experiment that way? I know that I did.


Which is why both my daughters said that dating in high school is stupid.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I have 3 daughters myself, all grown now. I never actually had that kind of situation to confront, but I always assumed that it was going on. Don't you expect high school aged boys to want to experiment that way? I know that I did.


do I expect highschool boys to try , of course 
Do I expect them to pressure the girl , No .
I too was a high school kid and never did I find the need to pressure or push a girl into something she found uncomfortable . In fact I saw how such things worked against the guy . I found that if you didnt push it would be offered , nice guys dont always finish last :thumb:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Annsni said:


> Which is why both my daughters said that dating in high school is stupid.


I believe that high school dating is important to social and personal relationship skills development.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I believe that high school dating is important to social and personal relationship skills development.


We think it's overrated. They have lots of friends. LOTS of them. Jeepers, they are never home! LOL But they both think that dating in high school is dumb.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I believe that high school dating is important to social and personal relationship skills development.


I too agree . dating is a time when teens learn about realationships 
they fall in and out of love , learn how to deal with disappointment . Most importantly they learn to recognize who is trustworthy and who isnt .


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

PyroDon said:


> I too agree . dating is a time when teens learn about realationships
> they fall in and out of love , learn how to deal with disappointment . Most importantly they learn to recognize who is trustworthy and who isnt .


I think they can learn that sort of thing (instead the falling in and out of love) just through living through high school. Additionally, they both felt that dating is a method to eventually find a life partner and since they were too young to marry, why bother? But they have a bunch of good friends - both guys and girls. So there's no worries on finding out life skills.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Annsni said:


> I think they can learn that sort of thing (instead the falling in and out of love) just through living through high school. Additionally, they both felt that dating is a method to eventually find a life partner and since they were too young to marry, why bother? But they have a bunch of good friends - both guys and girls. So there's no worries on finding out life skills.


I live in a college town and always have , Ive seen the devistation of the stunted teens who didnt get to date in high school . Ive seen them fall for the nice frat boy or campus Christian stud . Its not pleasant and they cant tell their folks which makes it even worse .
the real worlds not sunday school


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

PyroDon said:


> I live in a college town and always have , Ive seen the devistation of the stunted teens who didnt get to date in high school . Ive seen them fall for the nice frat boy or campus Christian stud . Its not pleasant and they cant tell their folks which makes it even worse .
> the real worlds not sunday school


Oh I know that and we're not teaching them that it is. It was my second daughter who did date in her senior year and dated that guy she broke up with. She then agreed with my oldest daughter that dating in high school is stupid. They are both in college now and not dating - and most certainly not for lack of boys trying.  They're just looking for someone who's even slightly worth it and unfortunately, there's no one in view who is interesting for them at this time. They can wait. I did and did fine.  Dated after high school and married my husband 2 years later. At almost 26 years married, we're doing quite well.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Annsni said:


> Oh I know that and we're not teaching them that it is. It was my second daughter who did date in her senior year and dated that guy she broke up with. She then agreed with my oldest daughter that dating in high school is stupid. They are both in college now and not dating - and most certainly not for lack of boys trying.  They're just looking for someone who's even slightly worth it and unfortunately, there's no one in view who is interesting for them at this time. They can wait. I did and did fine.  Dated after high school and married my husband 2 years later. At almost 26 years married, we're doing quite well.


Im not saying it cant work , but the odds are against it .
My wife only dated one person from the time she was 14, Me . that was over 26 years ago now


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

PyroDon said:


> Im not saying it cant work , but the odds are against it .
> My wife only dated one person from the time she was 14, Me . that was over 26 years ago now


Guess you were good enough.  LOL


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Annsni said:


> Guess you were good enough.  LOL


theres a story to it kinda fairy tail love at first site . dont think I was good enough , still not sure what she ever saw in me but glad she did


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

PyroDon said:


> theres a story to it kinda fairy tail love at first site . dont think I was good enough , still not sure what she ever saw in me but glad she did


There must be something under that firey exterior.  LOL


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

PyroDon said:


> theres a story to it kinda fairy tail love at first site . dont think I was good enough , still not sure what she ever saw in me but glad she did


Probably that Dudley Do-Right chin of yours. LOL


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Probably that Dudley Do-Right chin of yours. LOL


at least its not ranger rick ound:


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Annsni said:


> LOL But they both think that dating in high school is dumb.


Do they? OR do they just tell you that? Where do you suppose they got that Idea?
The problem for parents is that kids can be very different when in school.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

:thumb:


PyroDon said:


> dont think I was good enough , still not sure what she ever saw in me but glad she did


 They say one of the key signs of a good relationship is that it makes us WANT to be better for the other person!

WOWSA I think your in LOVE!


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

fantasymaker said:


> Do they? OR do they just tell you that? Where do you suppose they got that Idea?
> The problem for parents is that kids can be very different when in school.


Nah - They were the ones who came up with the idea after watching other students in school and stuff. They were homeschooled through 8th grade so when they got into 9th grade, they saw a lot of immaturity and just basic dumb stuff that the other kids did. They would always comment about so many things in school that they didn't think was wise and they knew that in school, their focus during classes should be on the class. They graduated well, both got college scholarships and continue to work part time - and are counted on at work as some of the most responsible there compared to most of the other kids. 

I just shook my head and agreed with what they said. LOL But we do always talk about basic wisdom in different situations. Our family talks a lot - about all sorts of things and talk things through - not just stating "no" or "that's wrong" and leaving it at that. I gotta say, I have good kids.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Annsni said:


> Nah - They were the ones who came up with the idea after watching other students in school and stuff. They were homeschooled through 8th grade so when they got into 9th grade, they saw a lot of immaturity and just basic dumb stuff that the other kids did.


Could be that the stuff they thought was "dumb" was simply the way adolescents interact with each other; a behavior that they may have never understood from being homeschooled.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Could be that the stuff they thought was "dumb" was simply the way adolescents interact with each other; a behavior that they may have never understood from being homeschooled.


Could be. I'm glad they missed it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Annsni said:


> Well, that's not the case here. We're quite open and when my daughter came to me after breaking up with her boyfriend, she let me know why it was. He was pressuring her into petting. He admitted it to my husband when he confronted him. There was no sex - she wouldn't even let him touch her breast. Yes, I know my kids very well.





Annsni said:


> #1 - My husband was a friend of his - or we thought
> 
> #2 - My husband had spoken to him when he asked if he could date our daughter. He specifically spoke to him of the physical relationship and counseled him to be careful with that.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, This sounds a whole lot like the pastors daughter I knew "way back when". Her parents were quite sure they had a good honest relationship and she told them everything too. They were really nice folks but just a wee bit naive. I knew her on an entirely different level than they did, and so did several of the other boys.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Hmmm, This sounds a whole lot like the pastors daughter I knew "way back when". Her parents were quite sure they had a good honest relationship and she told them everything too. They were really nice folks but just a wee bit naive. I knew her on an entirely different level than they did, and so did several of the other boys.


That's sad and I also have heard stories like that. But I'd stake my life on my daughter's honesty. Some may say I'm naive but it's just reality.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Hmmm, This sounds a whole lot like the pastors daughter I knew "way back when". Her parents were quite sure they had a good honest relationship and she told them everything too. They were really nice folks but just a wee bit naive. I knew her on an entirely different level than they did, and so did several of the other boys.


Met a preachers daughter from seneca like that 
sweetness and innocence for mom and dad .
total opposite away at college. she was a nice girl but very wild , she made up for not dating at home in the first month or two exploring all options .
Not that its bad its just she really had never been prepared and went a bit far .
took her about two years to finally get to a semi normal point


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

PyroDon said:


> Met a preachers daughter from seneca like that
> sweetness and innocence for mom and dad .
> total opposite away at college. she was a nice girl but very wild , she made up for not dating at home in the first month or two exploring all options .
> Not that its bad its just she really had never been prepared and went a bit far .
> took her about two years to finally get to a semi normal point


Even more common, people who don't live it up when they are young seem to the the most prone to having a mid-life crisis.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

PyroDon said:


> those darn elitests wanting people to be educated


Nope thats not what they are doing. 
If thats what they wanted it would be more like take the shot and we will give you a grand but what she wanted to do was make life HARDER on those that didnt go to college.

Yep if your not like us then to heck with you is the college attitude.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Annsni said:


> That's sad and I also have heard stories like that. But I'd stake my life on my daughter's honesty. Some may say I'm naive but it's just reality.


You seem to forget... you are also staking your daughters life on your assumptions.  Dont feel too badly though, my Yvonne does the same thing with our boy, even in the face of blatant evidence to the contrary, she believes he is 100 percent honest with her. I think it must be a mom thing.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

How about this, some of us who for what ever reason, be it faith based or hands on parenting or just plain luck have offsprings who express the fact that they want a happy and special future relationship and have and are independantly opting to live a life that in on track with reaching that goal. Why slam us and blind, stupid people living with rose-colored glasses. Can those who slam us consider for a short period of time that maybe we who state that we are infact raising our children and supporting our children in a lifestyle that both the parents and the children see and want. 

My son does interact with many children about 50 a week - just about the entire youth population for the the local and he is exposed to all different views yet he asks questions the show that he is conserned with.

"xx might be think I do not like her or I am mad at her because I was avoiding her but mom I did not know where to look because of what she chose to wear."

"Do you remember the girl we used to drive to soccor --that was her did you see how desparate she was to get those guys attention. I feel bad for her becasue she is only my age 14 and she is chasing guy just to have someone--she is someone we should prey for no matter what she is still my friend I just hate to see her get hurt those guys she was with were really talking like she was trash and she was taking it"

My son is far from being a saint --he does not walk on water. All his life he has been exposed to teachings that "Actions and choices today will both limit and expand you future opportunitiest it is your life and setting daily, weekly, monthly and longer term goals will aid you in making your life what every you want it to be". He has seen the good and the bad results on minor issuse for choices he made. As he ages his range of choices that he has been allowed to make independate of our input has increase. My view on parenting (for what it is worth I raised children for 3 families - one family for 10 years and those children are now raising thier own children--Raising other peoples children did impose limits on me yet honestly in the longest term home I had only two limits -teach the Jewish faith, and travel the world with them- the, now adults are sucessfull in life. One I am proud of his choices one I am not yet both are suscessful.) 

There is a lot of brainwashing attempts directed to the parents who are taking the stand for pro abstining from sex till marriage. I feel the need to express to those who wish to squash our views to infor you that true values do not change. It is my firm resolve to live my faith even when I am in the minority. I am simply posting this to encourage people on the fence that there are options and that kow towing to the majority viewpoint is a choice. A choice made to fit in and to be accepted and not based on ones true beliefs is a a choice that will impact ones goals. No, one can intimadate you till you impower them. At the same time one needs to accept that anything done at the removal of your free choice is not your will. there may come a time when you may be force not to live your choices.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> You seem to forget... you are also staking your daughters life on your assumptions.  Dont feel too badly though, my Yvonne does the same thing with our boy, even in the face of blatant evidence to the contrary, she believes he is 100 percent honest with her. I think it must be a mom thing.


Oh - see but there's nothing. No evidence, no opportunity - no boy.  So no worries about my daughters' lives.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

kasilofhome said:


> How about this, some of us who for what ever reason, be it faith based or hands on parenting or just plain luck have offsprings who express the fact that they want a happy and special future relationship and have and are independantly opting to live a life that in on track with reaching that goal. Why slam us and blind, stupid people living with rose-colored glasses. Can those who slam us consider for a short period of time that maybe we who state that we are infact raising our children and supporting our children in a lifestyle that both the parents and the children see and want.
> 
> My son does interact with many children about 50 a week - just about the entire youth population for the the local and he is exposed to all different views yet he asks questions the show that he is conserned with.
> 
> ...


Amen!! Your son sounds like a quality young man and your examples are just the same sort of thing that we have going on here. Very open discussion - not just about "do's and don't's" but about reasonings and stuff behind all of it. Thank you for posting what you did. I appreciate it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Annsni said:


> Oh - see but there's nothing. No evidence, no opportunity - no boy.  So no worries about my daughters' lives.


Thats good, sounds like you are in great shape then. No need to tell you bout my little sister, and how she went to school, came right home and off to her room to study every day. No boys, never out on a date, straight A student, very responsible girl. Her daughters name is "Sherry". 

Not saying your situation is this way, just making sure you know that it can and does happen to the nicest of girls, in the very nicest of families sometimes.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Thats good, sounds like you are in great shape then. No need to tell you bout my little sister, and how she went to school, came right home and off to her room to study every day. No boys, never out on a date, straight A student, very responsible girl. Her daughters name is "Sherry".
> 
> Not saying your situation is this way, just making sure you know that it can and does happen to the nicest of girls, in the very nicest of families sometimes.


So I've heard.


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