# CPS won't get involved, what do you do??



## Billie in MO (Jun 9, 2002)

You know for a fact that a 6 year old little boy is being beat with a belt, by his stepfather, because he wets the bed. This has been happening for over a year on a regular basis along with other abuse. (yes, documentation has been kept on all of it)

A couple of weeks ago, the little boy's father took him to get his hair cut and the child became so upset, scared, crying and screaming, "no, no, I can't get my hair cut, I'll get in trouble, I'll get in trouble". They left without the hair cut.

Of course, there is much more to the story, but it is long and quite involved. 

CPS was called and the abuse was reported. However, the person reporting it was told nothing could be done unless marks were left on the child. Did not seem to matter about documentation. Bottom line for CPS was, no marks, no abuse.

What do you do when they won't investigate and more importantly, stop the abuse?? Things are slowly escalating with the abuse of this child (and isolation of the mother from her family) but it falls on deaf ears.


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## EarlsNan (Apr 21, 2007)

If he's getting beat with a belt how can there be no marks?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Call again and if you get the same response, as to speak to a supervisor. That usually gets somebody's attention.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

All I can tell you is that CPS in Texas didn't do squat for the child in a case of abuse reported by teachers with documentation out the wazoo.

Very very frustrating.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Is the father trying to get custody? I realize this is almost impossible for a young child unless the mother gives it to him, no matter how bad the living conditions might be. :grumble:

If the mother is being isolated by the stepfather, chances are she's being abused by him in other ways too. What about a domestic violence agency?

It is not unusual for bedwetting to be a sign of abuse in itself, especially sexual abuse. I'm also very aware that there are reasons for this that are completely unrelated to any kind of abuse.


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

I think the more people who start complaining, the better the odds something will finally get done. Have the teachers, neighbors, friends, church folks or whoever has any contact with the boy, start complaining LOUDLY and OFTEN.


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## laughaha (Mar 4, 2008)

You probably spoke to an intake worker. Next time ask to speak to the Intake Worker's supervisor (they are who decides whether a case is accepted or not). Sounds more like a GPS case/investigation- General Protection Services. 

Unless he's being BEAT with the belt (on bare skin), their probably won't be marks; especially if the father is having to wait days after the "beating" to check the child for bruises. Very hard to prove abuse (to a judge) without marks. Children that young aren't reliable in court, that combined with no marks and the judge will throw out the case. Documentation is great, but there isn't much a caseworker is going to be able to do when it's hearsay. Keep the case open and monitor- yupper, but if abuse/severe neglect isn't proven while the case is open- it has to be closed (so says the laws). This reads like a caseworker has investigated the allegations, wasn't able to prove abuse/severe neglect and had to close it (since it's been going on for a year, I'm really hoping this isn't the first time it's been reported- otherwise daddy could be in alot of trouble for knowing about it and saying nothing for that year). Sounds like custody issues and as much as you're gonna hate hearing this- without proof you aren't gonna get a judge to take the kid away from it's mama.

Speaking as an ex-CPS/GPS investigator. 

The laws state that parents are allowed to parent as they see fit provided the child isn't being physically/emotionally/mentally abused nor neglected to the point that it puts the childs life in danger. Physical abuse is the easiest to prove in a court of law. Emotional/Mental Abuse is about impossible to prove with a 6yr old kid, especially if there aren't other kids in the home displaying the same behaviors and if the behaviors aren't extreme. Spanking isn't illegal, spanking with an implement is highly frowned upon but if it isn't causing severe pain or impairment, it's not (technically) illegal. Do I condone what the stepfather is reportedly doing? Absolutely not! Just trying to let ya know what you're up against. 

Stepfather sounds like a controlling POS, the problem is proving it.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

I don't think children should be hit with belts. But..... I don't think government has a place in families unless the child is in real physical danger. If this has been going on for over a year, with no marks, is the child in danger? If the kid is afraid of getting a hair cut, is that really a sign of physical danger? There is already too much government involvement in families in this nation. The village was never created to raise a child. The family was. That was God's plan. And unless this child is in REAL danger of severe physical harm/death, it is not the government's business nor anyone else's business. You know, in some states government social services has tried to accuse people of abuse for simply spanking a child. We need less government intrusion not more. CPS or youth services or whatever should be a last resort only to protect children. It should never be somewhere that people run to because they don't like the way a family does things. 
Do I think it is right/good/best parenting to hit this child with a belt? No. But I don't think CPS should take the child away if there is no real physical injury going on either. And if it has been going on for over a year with no marks... then that hasn't suddenly become a danger. God's way is the best way. And God put this child in that family not in CPS to raise.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

mekasmom said:


> I don't think children should be hit with belts. But..... I don't think government has a place in families unless the child is in real physical danger. If this has been going on for over a year, with no marks, is the child in danger? If the kid is afraid of getting a hair cut, is that really a sign of physical danger? There is already too much government involvement in families in this nation. The village was never created to raise a child. The family was. That was God's plan. And unless this child is in REAL danger of severe physical harm/death, it is not the government's business nor anyone else's business. You know, in some states government social services has tried to accuse people of abuse for simply spanking a child. We need less government intrusion not more. CPS or youth services or whatever should be a last resort only to protect children. It should never be somewhere that people run to because they don't like the way a family does things.
> Do I think it is right/good/best parenting to hit this child with a belt? No. But I don't think CPS should take the child away if there is no real physical injury going on either. And if it has been going on for over a year with no marks... then that hasn't suddenly become a danger. God's way is the best way. And God put this child in that family not in CPS to raise.


I agree with this.


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

While "spanking" definitions may differ, the child should not be "spanked" for bed wetting. Bed wetting is not something for which a child should ever be punished, because it's something the kid can't control.


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## laughaha (Mar 4, 2008)

Agreed, however the laws are in favor of parents being allowed to parent as they see fit (and most of the time that's a good thing) provided the child isn't being abused.

And to whoever suggested it may be sexual abuse- REALLLY!!??? OP please don't submit this child to a sexual abuse investigation unless you actually think it's going on- bedwetting alone is NOT cause to suspect this!!! This type of investigation could easily *severely* traumatize a child who isn't sexually abused and this kid is going through enough right now.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

Becka said:


> While "spanking" definitions may differ, the child should not be "spanked" for bed wetting. Bed wetting is not something for which a child should ever be punished, because it's something the kid can't control.


I agree but I just don't see how the government can get involved unless the child is being beaten for whatever reason. There's a difference between being hit and being beaten. I certainly don't want the government involved if I spank. I don't want officials to ignore it if someone abuses a child.

Unfortunately, in some areas you can be investigated if you lightly spank. In other places you cannot get child protective agencies involved with documented abuse. My cousin was sexually abused by her father at the age of 9 months. (She's now about 24.) Her physician documented and reported the abuse. He was so upset that he pestered Child Services. He even asked that he be called as a witness. He was moving out of the area and agreed to come back, at his expense, to testify. My aunt insisted that she had tried to get authorities involved but they refused. I didn't believe her. I spent hours and hours and hours trying to get help for my cousin. I spent tons on my telephone bill. Nobody would help. My aunt's ex never lost unsupervised visitation. He eventually had other children, all girls. This happened in Indiana.


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## therunbunch (Oct 5, 2009)

Forgive me if this has been asked/answered already.. but where are you getting your information from? And whom is keeping said documentation?

I know things can get skewed sometimes is why I'm asking. Very difficult situation when discussing parenting and government interference.. as I believe govt already has too much control in our lives, on the other end of the spectrum.. some people shouldn't ever be allowed to breed!


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## laughaha (Mar 4, 2008)

My guess is that child's father is keeping said documentation, OP is a close relative/friend of child's father who has a vested interest in the custody battle. Whether the child is being abused (according to the law) is still up for debate as no proof can be provided (which doesn't mean that the child isn't being abused). 

Not trying to sound harsh, but this really does read like a nasty custody battle.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Because of the divorce, there is already a court-approved agreement as to who has the authority to discipline this child.

Unless the step-father is authorized, at the very minimum, it is a violation of that civil agreement.

If that "discipline" goes as far as abuse, it could very well be criminal.


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

Oggie may have the answer. I hope so. 

Beating a child with a belt is not something I like at all, beating him for wetting the bed is just plain wrong.


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## laughaha (Mar 4, 2008)

The step-father is considered a guardian/caretaker of the child while the child is living in that home and probably has every (legal) right to discipline the child provided it's in a manner that the child's mother is comfortable with and the child isn't being abused. 

I've been in the middle of ALOT of nasty custody battles, and I've never seen anything like that in divorce decrees. Not saying it's not written in them, just that I've never seen it. Would be a good idea to check the divorce papers (if the parents were married and then divorced) or the custody arrangements. Even then you would have to prove that the step-father is disciplining the child at all, plus in a manner that was abusive.


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## Arkansasfarmgal (Oct 12, 2007)

Becka said:


> While "spanking" definitions may differ, the child should not be "spanked" for bed wetting. Bed wetting is not something for which a child should ever be punished, because it's something the kid can't control.


Very good point, IMO. It's also possible that he could be wetting the bed because he is being abused.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Our Little Farm said:


> Oggie may have the answer. I hope so.
> 
> Beating a child with a belt is not something I like at all, beating him for wetting the bed is just plain wrong.


I agree. This may not be considered physical abuse to some, but it is most definitely psychological/mental abuse and it needs to be stopped.


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## wanda1950 (Jan 18, 2009)

mekasmom said:


> I don't think children should be hit with belts. But..... I don't think government has a place in families unless the child is in real physical danger. If this has been going on for over a year, with no marks, is the child in danger? If the kid is afraid of getting a hair cut, is that really a sign of physical danger? There is already too much government involvement in families in this nation. The village was never created to raise a child. The family was. That was God's plan. And unless this child is in REAL danger of severe physical harm/death, it is not the government's business nor anyone else's business. You know, in some states government social services has tried to accuse people of abuse for simply spanking a child. We need less government intrusion not more. CPS or youth services or whatever should be a last resort only to protect children. It should never be somewhere that people run to because they don't like the way a family does things.
> Do I think it is right/good/best parenting to hit this child with a belt? No. But I don't think CPS should take the child away if there is no real physical injury going on either. And if it has been going on for over a year with no marks... then that hasn't suddenly become a danger. God's way is the best way. And God put this child in that family not in CPS to raise.



God way is the best way but you have no idea if what is going on here is God's way. Did God put the Jew's in the concentration camps? Don't mean to be incendiary but I don't think God puts any child in an abusive situation--people are well able to do that all by themselves.

I have had a little experience with child protective services when a young relative was abused. The family had been under investigation for years off & on. The child came to me with a threat from her stepmother to cut off her hair like a boys. They were saying she was a lesbian & that she needed that style. I talked with their worker at length to let her know the child was about to run & needed help. She planned to hitch from TN to Fla. Worked denied any problem. The child was able to get money for a ticket from a family member & ran the next day. She was never recovered to TN. & if she had hitched God alone knows what might have happened to her. 

I wrote a long letter to the worker, detailing again what had been going on & the fact that the child had, indeed, ran away. I let the worker know that she came close to being responsible for a young girl hitching for hundreds of miles. No action was ever taken & I never heard from the worker. 

It's sad but true that many of these workers are not only incompetent but cruel. I do salute the ones who do try hard to do the right thing.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

Actually I think my Jesus would be rather angry at what's going on here.

Personally, I wish there were people three times the size of grown men who decide to beat on little kids, who could give them a taste of it in return. 



OP, all I know to do is keep trying. Maybe get the kid in play therapy, as he likely needs it and the counselor will be a mandated reporter and honestly, the more people raising a fuss the better.


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## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

I am loath to encourage any government involvement with family life and a parents raising of their kids like they see fit but I could never understand how a man could hit a kid like that. I see parents hitting their kids at the store or threatening to and it makes me ill and I wonder if they could just see what they look like would they still do it.

I used to get the old brown extension cord treatment and lots of threats ...you dont forget it. I am with Jen, I am a big guy and I would like a few minutes alone with people like this...


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

Well, if I were a man and a step-father was beating my kid with a belt, I doubt I would need any government agency to intervene....There are ways to deal with this problem~<just saying>


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

That's basically what I was saying. The kiddo's biological father should be able to stop this sort of "discipline" on his own child through civil court action.


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

I've had a similar situation and it's frustrating. The laws are there for a reason though. The only part of it I don't like is that if you have joint custody then the ex has to sign off on medical nonemergency treatments including therapy. To "prove" emotional/mental abuse you have to take the child to therapy. Now, if the abuser is the ex and they won't sign off on it then you're really in trouble.

Spanking a child for something they can't control is horrible.


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## Guest123 (Oct 10, 2006)

Melissa said:


> Well, if I were a man and a step-father was beating my kid with a belt, I doubt I would need any government agency to intervene....There are ways to deal with this problem~<just saying>


Well said! I know how I would handle this.


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## Billie in MO (Jun 9, 2002)

Melissa said:


> Well, if I were a man and a step-father was beating my kid with a belt, I doubt I would need any government agency to intervene....There are ways to deal with this problem~<just saying>


 That has been discussed and is a real possibility. I know that for a fact because the father said what he was going to do right in front of me. 




therunbunch said:


> Forgive me if this has been asked/answered already.. but where are you getting your information from? And whom is keeping said documentation?


Some of my info is first hand knowledge (I think I'm pretty reliable in that regard) and also from the grandparents and the parents. The mother has admitted to some of it, said it stopped but found out in March when I was there that it was still continuing. 




wr said:


> Call again and if you get the same response, as to speak to a supervisor. That usually gets somebody's attention.


The caller did request a supervisor and was denied.


Thanks for all the different perspectives. This entire situation with him and his mother has been very frustrating on many levels. This child is a family member who we have been close to all his life. We no longer live in the same state but keep in close contact with everyone there. I have been back there 5 times in the last 8 months. Spent most of March there and got to see him once. He put his little arms around my neck and just kept squeezing and hugging and did not want to let go of me. About broke my heart. 

As I mentioned before there is a lot more to the story that I am not prepared to talk about. There is much more than just being beaten with a belt. I don't believe that there is any sexual abuse tho. There have been many changes/upheavals in the last year for this little boy and he is being neglected in many ways, both physically and mentally. And many of you are right.......we have to prove it.

And we do think that the mother is in an abusive, controlling relationship and her husband is very much isolating her from the family. She says he has never hit her, however the mental abuse he hurls is just as bad. That I have seen/heard first hand for myself. And yes, her mother has gone to a domestic violence center to get info on how to try and handle this. We are walking a fine line trying to keep communications open so that we can continue to keep an eye on this little boy.

There is no custody battle, however, just last week they gave papers to the father to ask permission to move out of state, because the stepfather can't find a job where they live now. Don't get me started on the no job issue or I will lose it!!! So I do know that the father will be filing papers to stop that.

Again, thanks for the different responses. It helps to hear from others simply because I am too close to the situation. My sister-in-law (my husband's sister) is this little boy's grandmother, (the mother is her daughter). Up until last Sept she saw him virtually every day and he had spent every Friday night of his entire life at Nana's house for a sleep over. 

Thanks for letting me vent my frustrations. We will keep trying.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

I am curious how long this man has been the step father. I realize he is considered a legal guardian, but it sounds like this child does have a father who is actively involved in his life. 
Why does the step father feel the need to be the "heavy hand" with this young child? I agree that there is a control issue going on and perhaps that is why the mother is not stopping him from overly disciplining her child. 
There is a big difference between spanking and hitting. Sounds like this man is hitting out of anger caused by the child's bedwetting.
What I would do is have the people who are concerned continue to call CPS and create a paper trail. At this point I think that is all they can do.


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## Billie in MO (Jun 9, 2002)

shanzone2001 said:


> I am curious how long this man has been the step father. I realize he is considered a legal guardian, but it sounds like this child does have a father who is actively involved in his life.
> Why does the step father feel the need to be the "heavy hand" with this young child? I agree that there is a control issue going on and perhaps that is why the mother is not stopping him from overly disciplining her child.
> There is a big difference between spanking and hitting. Sounds like this man is hitting out of anger caused by the child's bedwetting.
> What I would do is have the people who are concerned continue to call CPS and create a paper trail. At this point I think that is all they can do.


He has been this child's step-father for 3 years and in his life for over 4 years. The little boy sees his father/other grandparents every other weekend, plus holidays.

Wish I knew why this step-father feels the need to control, but I do have a few suspicions about that. My sister-in-law and I have discussed this situation so many times and have to continually remind ourselves that we need to keep it legal. (we do like to fantasize about going the illegal route, tho.......helps with our frustrations....even my husband, who is former CI/LE, and strictly by the book, talks about the other ways, and that is not like him). It will do no good for us to go to jail because of this person.

We will continue to keep trying.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

I have a tough question to ask- do you know for sure the step dad is doing this, or is the child playing the parents against eachother? If the child is exaggerating (which is normal for kids stuck in the middle of divorced parents) then you might want to find out why. I tend to believe the child is telling the truth, but what "if" he is saying what he thinks Daddy wants him to say? Does the child know for a fact that his father and other family members do not like the step dad? I am just thinking of other possible reasons for what is happening.
The bed wetting is a sign of a distraught child (unless he has a medical problem) so obviously this child is going through something that is difficult for him. Do his parents fight? Do they talk negatively about eachother?
I am simply looking at this from the perspective of someone who has been a step-parent. Any time I disciplined the children, their mother would scream abuse. It is a tough situation for kids caught between parents and other family members who do not get along.
I hope they can find some common ground and all try to get along for the child's sake.


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## suzfromWi (Jun 1, 2002)

mekasmom said:


> I don't think children should be hit with belts. But..... I don't think government has a place in families unless the child is in real physical danger. If this has been going on for over a year, with no marks, is the child in danger? If the kid is afraid of getting a hair cut, is that really a sign of physical danger? There is already too much government involvement in families in this nation. The village was never created to raise a child. The family was. That was God's plan. And unless this child is in REAL danger of severe physical harm/death, it is not the government's business nor anyone else's business. You know, in some states government social services has tried to accuse people of abuse for simply spanking a child. We need less government intrusion not more. CPS or youth services or whatever should be a last resort only to protect children. It should never be somewhere that people run to because they don't like the way a family does things.
> Do I think it is right/good/best parenting to hit this child with a belt? No. But I don't think CPS should take the child away if there is no real physical injury going on either. And if it has been going on for over a year with no marks... then that hasn't suddenly become a danger. God's way is the best way. And God put this child in that family not in CPS to raise.


This post makes me feel ill...Please protect children from those that think like this!


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Oy.
State Police?
Private investigator?
School Counselor?
Anyone Anyone? Buhler, Buhler?

This poor baby....this poor poor baby.......this is gonna wreck him for life......
Someone needs to get that mama and baby outta there.....now.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Billie - 
poor kid.
I hope something can be done for him. I understand your heartache.

Angie


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

shanzone2001 said:


> I have a tough question to ask- do you know for sure the step dad is doing this, or is the child playing the parents against eachother? If the child is exaggerating (which is normal for kids stuck in the middle of divorced parents) then you might want to find out why. I tend to believe the child is telling the truth, but what "if" he is saying what he thinks Daddy wants him to say? Does the child know for a fact that his father and other family members do not like the step dad? I am just thinking of other possible reasons for what is happening.
> The bed wetting is a sign of a distraught child (unless he has a medical problem) so obviously this child is going through something that is difficult for him. Do his parents fight? Do they talk negatively about eachother?
> I am simply looking at this from the perspective of someone who has been a step-parent. Any time I disciplined the children, their mother would scream abuse. It is a tough situation for kids caught between parents and other family members who do not get along.
> I hope they can find some common ground and all try to get along for the child's sake.


Good questions. I have problems accepting that he's being beat with a belt with no marks on his body. The bedwetting could be just because he's a heavy sleeper, or could be due to the divorce itself.


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## Jennifer L. (May 10, 2002)

Sonshine said:


> Good questions. I have problems accepting that he's being beat with a belt with no marks on his body. The bedwetting could be just because he's a heavy sleeper, or could be due to the divorce itself.



No kid screams in fear in a barber shop that he'll get in trouble if his hair gets cut unless there is a reason for it. There's something going on, all right.

No advice, just hope it turns out ok for the boy.

Jennifer


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## tkrabec (Mar 12, 2003)

Billie in MO said:


> That has been discussed and is a real possibility. I know that for a fact because the father said what he was going to do right in front of me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Call the local new station & tell them that CPS is refusing to investigate & refuses to allow you to talk to a supervisor even with documented evidence of Abuse. That should get the ball rolling.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Jennifer L. said:


> No kid screams in fear in a barber shop that he'll get in trouble if his hair gets cut unless there is a reason for it. There's something going on, all right.
> 
> No advice, just hope it turns out ok for the boy.
> 
> Jennifer


Well, I also have a question about this. Who took him to the barber shop? My DS use to scream bloody murder when we took him to get his hair cut, and no, he wasn't abused. I was spanked with belts when I was a child and believe me, it left welts and bruises. If he has no marks it makes me question the situation, that's all.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

What sort of documented proof is there? If the child has bruising from being beat with a belt, he should be taken to a doctor for verification. Then, if I'm not mistaken, the doctor has to report it.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Now remember I come from an older generation but back in my younger days this would have be handled by a few other fathers having a nice stern talk with the guy with the belt. A talk about how many people are hurt every day in accidents around the house and at work and the like. Worked quite well but in this day and age you don't have many people who are willing to get involved.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Having been on the fringes of 'abuse' situations through law enforcement contacts, I do have a specific question. Not doubting your information, just a question and the answer may be part of the reason the CPS is reluctant to act.

When you speak of "well documented" what specific kind of documentation? Is it a member/members of the families/friends of the two parents saying "I saw him with bruises consistent with being hit with a belt"? Are there people not related that are saying this and willing to put it in writing? Most important are there photos/ images of the bruising?

With two custodial parents involved, CPS and law enforcement personnel are very reluctant to get involved without visual documentation from an 'outside source' ... a source that does not involve the custodial parents, their families or their friends. Unfortunately, there have been too many cases where abuse has been alleged, the allegation has been found to be false and the agencies involved have been sued. Like everyone else in current "sue happy" environment, government agencies are reluctant to get involved in situations that are not well documented.

Both the bedwetting and the screaming at the barbershop about the haircut could be an indication that there is abuse ... but it could also be a reflection of stress and emotional upset because of the divorce, the change in family situation and the apparently ongoing tension between the parents. I have known children that have done both of these things for reasons other than abusive situations in the home though I will also admit that it could be an indication of abuse as well, it just isn't something that an agency can determine without solid documentation.


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## libby (Feb 27, 2011)

Don't get CPS involved- do you really want this child pulled out of his home and placed indefinitely in a stranger's home while they try to sort it out? Though it is a long, involved process, the Father or (in some states) another blood relative can try to get custody. There are legal avenues to follow where the boy could stay with family members while the action is going on. In fact, it may even work to call on Sunday night and say, "Oh we're having so much fun... can he stay a few more days?" Who knows, a pattern of him being away from there more might be just the ticket to getting him out permanently.


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## laughaha (Mar 4, 2008)

libby said:


> Don't get CPS involved- do you really want this child pulled out of his home and placed indefinitely in a stranger's home while they try to sort it out? Though it is a long, involved process, the Father or (in some states) another blood relative can try to get custody. There are legal avenues to follow where the boy could stay with family members while the action is going on. In fact, it may even work to call on Sunday night and say, "Oh we're having so much fun... can he stay a few more days?" Who knows, a pattern of him being away from there more might be just the ticket to getting him out permanently.


If a child has to be removed from a home (either temporarily or permanently) the child WILL go to the closest relative (father) provided that the father is not deemed a threat to the child and his home isn't so bad that the child's life is in danger. If the father's home isn't deemed safe, the caseworker HAS TO try to get the child into either a relative or a close friends home that is deemed safe and the parents agree to. Foster Care is ALWAYS a last option for a caseworker, unless the child is going to a different state to live with relatives, then child may go into foster care till the homestudies and all necessary paperwork is completed. 

Foster Care=Expensive
Kinship Care= Cheaper
Father= State doesn't have to pay father to keep child

If their is a custody agreement (in writing) the father cannot legally keep the child longer than the agreement specifies without the mother's permission. If he does, he could be charged with kidnapping.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Jennifer L. said:


> No kid screams in fear in a barber shop that he'll get in trouble if his hair gets cut unless there is a reason for it. There's something going on, all right.
> Jennifer


I respectfully disagree.

First of all, we're taking the Father's word for this, and he has a vested interest in the outcome (ie he obviously wants to change the custody arrangments of his kid). Its possible that the kid balked at getting his hair cut for whatever reason, saw that Dad was waivering, and decided to play it up to get his way.

Second of all, who knows why the kid didn't want his hair cut? Maybe last time he was there the barber accidentally nicked his ear, or the kids at school made fun of him with shorter hair, or his mom had promised him ice cream at the shop next door next time she took him to get his hair cut, or....

Example: When my eldest DD was 6, we took our old family dog to the vet. This dog was every bit of 65 pounds but was as gentle as a lamb, slept under her crib when she was a baby, let my kids do anything they wanted to him (stickers all over his body, brushed with their hairbrushes, anything). Dog was 100% kid-proofed, wonderful with people/animals, never had an issue at all. 

The vet took the dog in the back room to draw blood for his heartworm check because he didn't want to do it in front of the kids... When the vet walked the dog back in my dog began his usual calm ramble towards the girls, looking for them to pet him. At this point my eldest DD began screaming "no no no don't let him near me! AAAAAHHHHHH!!!!" and jumped up onto the exam table, shaking in fear, crying, wimpering, yelling, the whole 9 yards.

Of course the vet immediately began questioning me about the dog's behavior and questioning if he was kid-safe. The dog was confused, and I was completely floored. I had to take the dog out to the car, then come back and fetch DD, who was still crying and ranting about keeping the dog away from her.

I'm sure that vet went home and told his wife that I was a horrible parent for having a dog in the house that my kid was clearly afraid of, and that the situation was a recipe for disaster. Heck, the man could have called CPS and reported the situation if he had wanted to, and I'm sure they would have opened an investigation into my "vicious" dog sharing the couch with a kid who was terrified of him.

I had to wait until we were home, put the dog outside, and got DD calmed down. Turned out the dog was drooling (he was NOT normally a drooly dog at all, in fact he only drooled when we was really stressed out) when he came back in the exam room, and she didn't want to get drool on her pretty dress. 

So did the Dad in this situation wait for the child to calm down, then ask him what he meant by saying he'd get in "trouble"? Did he take any steps to confirm that the child wasn't just playing him?

I'm not ruling out the possibility of abuse, just saying that jumping to this conclusion without all the facts isn't a good idea.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I think if CPS doesnt see it as a problem..... I would mind my own business. But then thats just me. :shrug:


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## libby (Feb 27, 2011)

If their is a custody agreement (in writing) the father cannot legally keep the child longer than the agreement specifies without the mother's permission. If he does, he could be charged with kidnapping.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but that's why I said to call and ask. I have several relatives and friends with kids' dads who have partial custody, and all of them are willing to let the child stay longer if the dad calls and asks. And in most cases, it works the other way, too: if there is some kind of event or family outing, the dad is always willing to switch weekends. 
Why get child services involved if simple asking could help relieve the situation and lead to a better outcome?


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## insocal (May 15, 2005)

I thought we wanted government so small we could drown it in a bathtub? That would necessarily entail eliminating CPS-type services altogether.

I'm sure Unfettered Free-Market Capitalism (TM) has a solution for child abuse cases like this.

NOT.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Everyone who is suggesting the bedwetting is related to the divorce... the OP states that there is no custody battle and that the stepfather has been his stepfather for three years and has been around the little boy for four years. Wouldn't any mental fallout from the divorce occurred a while back, perhaps when he was three? And not three years later?


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Could it be they did investigate and found things ok?
Here every complaint gets a investigation so simply have each of the neighbors call.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> Everyone who is suggesting the bedwetting is related to the divorce... the OP states that there is no custody battle and that the stepfather has been his stepfather for three years and has been around the little boy for four years. Wouldn't any mental fallout from the divorce occurred a while back, perhaps when he was three? And not three years later?


We don't know when the bedwetting started, but there's many reasons why a child wets the bed. I was a bedwetter up till my teens because I was such a sound sleeper. So, it may be a symptom, but then again, it may not be. No one has answered what sort of documented proof there is that this child is being beaten. If it was a child I knew, and he presented with welts from being beaten, I'd take him to a doctor to get the verification. Doctors would have to report suspected abuse situations and they wouldn't be ignored.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

insocal said:


> I thought we wanted government so small we could drown it in a bathtub? That would necessarily entail eliminating CPS-type services altogether.
> 
> I'm sure Unfettered Free-Market Capitalism (TM) has a solution for child abuse cases like this.
> 
> NOT.


I wouldn't mind eliminating CPS services. I've seen them get involved too many times in situations they shouldn't have. Although, they do provide a service that is beneficial, I have also seen times their services caused harm where there was none before.


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## Sunbee (Sep 30, 2008)

I have a kid who's a bed-wetter. It's frustrating. His brothers on either side in age are not. No point in punishing him for it--he gets to clean up his mess each morning it happens and I get to do two extra loads of laundry--and it happens about five times a week. He's almost seven. It's not related to abuse. It's not related to anything emotional. This boy's gone through nothing his brothers haven't also gone through. No divorces, nothing. No medical issues either. Just one of those things. I have a friend with a kid who's a bed-wetter, again, no apparent cause, has three siblings who aren't. Just from my conversations with other moms, I'd say this no apparent cause bed-wetting is much more common in boys than in girls.

In the case of this family, if the step-dad's not leaving marks with the belt, then I'm not sure what the difference between spanking with a hand or a wooden spoon or a belt would be. The step-dad can't be using any force to speak of, and a belt will make a good snap when it hits a solid object (I took their belts away from my boys just this morning who thought they'd be fun to play with--when they hit the posts of the bunk bed, or each other, they sure made a snap). I really don't see how spanking a kid will fix bed-wetting, though. Maybe a good childcare book is in order, or perhaps dad can suggest nicely that they take him in for a physical just to rule out anything medical and let the doctor be the bad guy in saying that the boy isn't wetting the bed to be defiant or anything.
I'd also be disinclined to say that freaking out over a hair cut is a sign of abuse. I've had mine freak out over hair cuts because they simply didn't want their hair cut: they wanted to try to grow it out to a mohawk. Since their dad does their hair cuts himself, there's no point in saying they'll get in trouble, instead they cry that it'll hurt or just cry. Does the dad of this boy give him extra attention, hugs, ice cream, whatever, when the kid acts in this way? I'd be really surprised if the dad did not--as parents we tend to try to comfort upset kids, after all, but I wonder if this mightn't be a toddler in the check-out aisle scenario: kid cries because he's tired, dad buys candy to quiet kid, the next time the kid cries again, the dad buys candy again, and now the kid's crying every time they hit the check-out aisle in order to get candy.

Certainly from what you've said there are things to be concerned about and keep an eye on in the situation, I just don't see that those rise necessarily to the level of abuse, more stupid parenting, and it may just be wisest to keep on keeping an eye on the situation, and maybe the dad might want to consider how he reacts when his son throws a fit over things in general and see if there's a pattern there that gives some positive payback to the child for fit-throwing. Why not take the boy to the barbershop again next time the dad has him, and if he throws a fit, immediately call his mom, while he's still screaming, and ask her if there's something dad should know about? Could be the kid self-barbered once and got told he better never cut his hair without mom present again or he'd catch it for sure, or something as simple as that.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Arkansasfarmgal said:


> Very good point, IMO. It's also possible that he could be wetting the bed because he is being abused.


If it is happening. But if there are no marks and never were any marks over the last year of supposed "beatings"?????? Sometimes people extrapolate things because emotions run high and they just assume. If the child is not in any real danger, then cps has no business butting into the family's life. We need less government not more. And NONE of the things mentioned--
"beatings" with no marks
bed wetting
not wanting a hair cut
are child abuse.
It's just not there in those things that were mentioned. If the child was really being beaten, there would be marks. Lots of kids wet the bed from an immature nervous system. And lots of kids don't want to have a hair cut for a lot of reasons. That is just not child abuse. And if there were marks/abuse, someone who saw the child everyday like a teacher or neighbor would be more likely to see it than a distant relative who doesn't live with the boy.

Sorry.... I quoted the wrong person on this post. Sorry. Sometimes when I have too many tabs opened I hit the wrong one. But my point is still the same. You can't just assume something is abuse because it is such a strong accusation. If the child isn't hurt, has no marks throughout a year of supposed abuse? Then it wasn't abuse in the first place. CPS shouldn't interfere in families if there really isn't a child in danger just because the other side of the family wants to.


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## Billie in MO (Jun 9, 2002)

Again, thanks for all the different view points. Just a few things:

I don't believe the child is playing the parents against each other. The custody arrangements have been in place a long time with no problem. They regularly accommodate each other if they need to switch weekends or to have him longer. The father is not looking to change that.

The little boy has been checked by a doctor for the bed wetting and no medical reason has been found. Last Friday night he was finally allowed to spend the night at my sis-in-law's house. (first time in 7 months) The first thing he said when waking up was "Nana, I didn't wet the bed". He has never ever wet the bed there nor has he at the father's/grandparents house.

Haircuts in the past have again, never ever been a problem. He got them on a regular basis without incident. This was a first.

We have debated getting CPS involved for a long time. My sis-in-law was a pre-school teacher/director for 20 years and has dealt with abused children in her school over those 20 years. She is aware of the risks. We have been trying to handle this as a family first but the step father is very adept at controlling the situation and isolating them from everyone (friends included) and good at covering up. Over time we have discovered public records in the court system to confirm that. He has that charming smile to make you believe his lies but don't turn your back or you will get stabbed.

I wish I could reveal everything I know (first hand knowledge) as there have been many, many other incidents which lead me to believe we do have a serious problem. The bed wetting is just one small incident among many others. There are many other aspects at play in this relationship. I don't wish to jeopardize anything by revealing too much on a public forum, just in case this does go further. We just want this little boy to be safe and to grow up.

Thanks again for the different responses.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Good for you for caring. I grew up with an evil stepfather who got kicks out of beating kids with belts while verbally degrading them, and more....and a mother who could care less since what he did to children was an "inconvenient truth" that didn't fit into her imaginary perfect fantasy marriage, and the false image of perfection that she wanted to present to the outside world.

I am so glad your kid has an adult that cares in his life...so many don't... Caring and acknowledging what is going on is the first step. Make sure your son knows he has a father in his life that does care and will be there for him...


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

If the step-father and mother need to leave the state to find work, problem solved good-by and leave 6 yo with his father. The father will need lots of $'s to pay legal fees to fight this battle. The Court could also be asked to have the boy go to evaluation to determine his emotional health.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Billie in MO said:


> Again, thanks for all the different view points. Just a few things:
> 
> I don't believe the child is playing the parents against each other. The custody arrangements have been in place a long time with no problem. They regularly accommodate each other if they need to switch weekends or to have him longer. The father is not looking to change that.
> 
> ...


Only you know all the details.......and you know the whole situation.
Please, please, please......help this child, please.....


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## Jill J C (Sep 8, 2010)

Billie - Just by you asking this question leads me to believe you feel their is a real threat to this child. It seems you have the proof you need - so act on it. 

Do what your concience tells you to do. Don't second guess yourself. You might be the only help this kids has.

Jill


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## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

You can file for guardianship of the child (or anyone else for that matter). Just file the paperwork and get ready to prove your case to a judge. If the judge finds a reason for an emergency order, it will be done on a temporary basis until the court can investigate.

You don't need CPS to take someone's kid. You can DIY.


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## Kazahleenah (Nov 3, 2004)

laughaha said:


> If a child has to be removed from a home (either temporarily or permanently) the child WILL go to the closest relative (father) provided that the father is not deemed a threat to the child and his home isn't so bad that the child's life is in danger. If the father's home isn't deemed safe, the caseworker HAS TO try to get the child into either a relative or a close friends home that is deemed safe and the parents agree to. Foster Care is ALWAYS a last option for a caseworker, unless the child is going to a different state to live with relatives, then child may go into foster care till the homestudies and all necessary paperwork is completed.
> 
> Foster Care=Expensive
> Kinship Care= Cheaper
> ...



Depends where you live. Here, they pop the kids auto in foster care THEN sort everything out.... just sayin. Each state/county does things diffrently.


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## Mmiller6 (Jan 23, 2021)

wanda1950 said:


> God way is the best way but you have no idea if what is going on here is God's way. Did God put the Jew's in the concentration camps? Don't mean to be incendiary but I don't think God puts any child in an abusive situation--people are well able to do that all by themselves.
> 
> I have had a little experience with child protective services when a young relative was abused. The family had been under investigation for years off & on. The child came to me with a threat from her stepmother to cut off her hair like a boys. They were saying she was a lesbian & that she needed that style. I talked with their worker at length to let her know the child was about to run & needed help. She planned to hitch from TN to Fla. Worked denied any problem. The child was able to get money for a ticket from a family member & ran the next day. She was never recovered to TN. & if she had hitched God alone knows what might have happened to her.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. How do you know that was God’s plan? He didn’t plan for children to be abused. And what this child was going through is abuse and it’s terrible and his stepdad deserves to be locked away or punished like he punishes his child. I disagree with ever putting your hands on your child. There is always a better way to deal with it.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

wanda1950 hasn't logged on in nearly 6 years. 

I hope that this situation was resolved in a way that protected this child.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Wow, I completely missed the date. Yeah...I wonder how it's going for them now.


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