# Horse slaughter on it's way back?



## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

Source 


> *U.S. horse slaughter plants in the very early stages of planning, proponent says *
> The last horse slaughter plants in the U.S. shut down in 2007. But now Congress has cleared the way for horse slaughter plants to open again.
> 
> BY SONYA COLBERG AND CHRIS CASTEEL Oklahoman 22 Published: November 27, 2011
> ...


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

From what I've been reading, it sounds like it may be. I certainly hope so. The PETA/HSUS types and do-gooders certainly condemned a lot of horses to an even more horrible death than they would have faced at slaughter.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Well- it probably won't happen in California. But since it costs about $1000 to kill a horse using a vet and having the body taken away, you know what happens here- people just let them loose. 
It's not just "excess" horses. It's the animal that needs to be put down too. If you've spent thousands trying to save a horse, you may not have that last thousand dollars.

Hopefully a dose of reality that will stick- I better stop contributing to the Humane Society until this is a done deal. I would hate for my money to go to support a law suit.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

:clap: :clap: It's about time. Hopefully the market will pick up, I don't expect huge gains but anything will help at this point. Not to mention less abuse and neglect cases- it's gotten ugly around here in the last few years.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Is it illegal to ship to slaughter in CA? I thought I read that a law was passed that actually made it illegal to ship. We still can ship to Canada legally here in NY.



where I want to said:


> Well- it probably won't happen in California. But since it costs about $1000 to kill a horse using a vet and having the body taken away, you know what happens here- people just let them loose.
> It's not just "excess" horses. It's the animal that needs to be put down too. If you've spent thousands trying to save a horse, you may not have that last thousand dollars.
> 
> Hopefully a dose of reality that will stick- I better stop contributing to the Humane Society until this is a done deal. I would hate for my money to go to support a law suit.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

I think it is better to do it where we can control it v. shipping US horses for thousands of miles to Mexico and Canada. I wonder how many die in transport? Or just suffer needlessly on the way. 

But I will be curious to see it play out. I am not exactly sure why so many people are against horse slaughter....I mean, I wouldn't want to send my horse to slaughter either, but it seems far more humane than letting them starve to death or live out a miserable life because the owners can't afford to euthanize and have the horse buried. I think my vet charges $150-200 for the euth. but the disposal is the really hard part....bringing an excavator to your farm would easily cost a few hundred dollars if you can find one to do it and you have the room. If not........the renderer charges something like $.10/lb. or some crazy amount. Needless to say, it's prohibitive to say the least.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

offthegrid said:


> I think it is better to do it where we can control it v. shipping US horses for thousands of miles to Mexico and Canada. I wonder how many die in transport? Or just suffer needlessly on the way.
> 
> But I will be curious to see it play out. I am not exactly sure why so many people are against horse slaughter....I mean, I wouldn't want to send my horse to slaughter either, but it seems far more humane than letting them starve to death or live out a miserable life because the owners can't afford to euthanize and have the horse buried. I think my vet charges $150-200 for the euth. but the disposal is the really hard part....bringing an excavator to your farm would easily cost a few hundred dollars if you can find one to do it and you have the room. If not........the renderer charges something like $.10/lb. or some crazy amount. Needless to say, it's prohibitive to say the least.


NY already has decent legislature for humane shipment to slaughter, offthegrid. It's outlined in this law: http://law.onecle.com/new-york/agriculture-markets/AGM0359-A_359-A.html there aren't many States that have laws in place.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Is it illegal to ship to slaughter in CA? I thought I read that a law was passed that actually made it illegal to ship. We still can ship to Canada legally here in NY.


Just last week Canada announced that it will except horses for slaughter at three POE (point of entry), Detroit/Windser, Port Huron/Sarnia and Niagria. That cuts off western horses. Perhaps they'll go to Mexico?

In the past few years, humane livestock treatment at slaughter has made great strides, led by McDonalds, orchastrated by Temple Granden.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

It's not a beautiful thing, but I think it is necessary and will be better in the long run. 

There are far too many horses dying from neglect; these are things worse than horse slaughter, the least we can do is save them the long ride to Mexico.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> NY already has decent legislature for humane shipment to slaughter, offthegrid. It's outlined in this law: http://law.onecle.com/new-york/agriculture-markets/AGM0359-A_359-A.html there aren't many States that have laws in place.


Well, it's sad that other states don't have even this little bit of protection, which basically seems only to prevent horses being shipped in trucks not designed for horses. What I really meant was how many horses are being shipped in poor condition -- lame, sick, starving, elderly, etc. -- and whether they even make it to the slaughter plant?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

offthegrid said:


> Well, it's sad that other states don't have even this little bit of protection, which basically seems only to prevent horses being shipped in trucks not designed for horses. What I really meant was how many horses are being shipped in poor condition -- lame, sick, starving, elderly, etc. -- and whether they even make it to the slaughter plant?


I assumed it was in the same law but NYS regs state no 3 legged lame, blind, no mixed (drafts with ponies, horses with minis etc.) loads, or mares near foaling can be shipped. It's not cost effective to lose them before reaching the processing plant so the horses I've seen that were going to be shipped (kill pens) have been in decent shape.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> Just last week Canada announced that it will except horses for slaughter at three POE (point of entry), Detroit/Windser, Port Huron/Sarnia and Niagria. That cuts off western horses. Perhaps they'll go to Mexico?
> 
> In the past few years, humane livestock treatment at slaughter has made great strides, led by McDonalds, orchastrated by Temple Granden.


They've been shipping to Mexico. It's not illegal in the US (with the possible exception of CA) to ship to slaughter to either Mexico or Canada.


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## neal68 (May 29, 2005)

the main supporter of horse slaughter (slaughterhouse Sue) owns a slaughterhouse so it is no wonder it was passed!!! what a crock!!!!!!!!!!!


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

neal68 said:


> the main supporter of horse slaughter (slaughterhouse Sue) owns a slaughterhouse so it is no wonder it was passed!!! what a crock!!!!!!!!!!!


Ummmmm, Wow!. Just Wow.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

neal68, I'm afraid that things go a lot deeper that 'slaughterhouse sue.' As a stockman, I'd love to see a working solution to the problem and if you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> They've been shipping to Mexico. It's not illegal in the US (with the possible exception of CA) to ship to slaughter to either Mexico or Canada.


I mistyped and mis-spoke all in the same sentence. Canada announced that they will only accept horses through only three POE. Since all three are on the eastern end of the country, I'd guess that western US horses go to Mexico or that most of the horse meat is eaten in eastern Canada.

So if you have horses going to Canada for slaughter, keep in mind that you have only three places that you'll be allowed to cross.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

haypoint said:


> In the past few years, humane livestock treatment at slaughter has made great strides, led by McDonalds, orchastrated by Temple Granden.


Yep, it's too bad Sparboe just got busted for animal cruelty... So much for those "humane" eggs that McDonald's has been buying. :\

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRjFBiaU6V0[/ame]


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

haypoint said:


> I mistyped and mis-spoke all in the same sentence. Canada announced that they will only accept horses through only three POE. Since all three are on the eastern end of the country, I'd guess that western US horses go to Mexico or that most of the horse meat is eaten in eastern Canada.
> 
> So if you have horses going to Canada for slaughter, keep in mind that you have only three places that you'll be allowed to cross.


Not true. Somebody got the story screwed up. Those are the only three POEs IN ONTARIO.

There's also Kingsgate, BC. Coutts, Alberta. North Portal, Saskatchewan. Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle, Quebec and Woodstock, New Brunswick.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I've been seeing discussions about this other places as well, including a couple of equine-only sites that have a big percentage of professional horse people that post regularly on those sites (not specifically horse breeders, but owners/competition riders/trainers, etc. ... the Chronicle is one of them). 

I am seeing a noticeable change in the general attitude from several years ago when the law against horse slaughter was passed. Then, there were very few people who opposed the ban and the few people posting that this was likely to *not* be a good solution were instantly flamed.

Now ... several years later with so many people in the equine industry who have seen and tried to cope with the results of that ban ... you find a majority that are in favor of the slaughter ban being repealed and you see very few of the inflamatory posts that were so common before.

Too many horse owners ... not just the horse breeders or slaughterhouse owners or big horse haulers ... have seen the very unfortunate and all too often, tragic, results of the ban on slaughter in the U.S. to be convinced that the ban was the answer to the problem.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

California law makes it illegal to hold or transfer any horse with the intent to slaughter. I doubt whether it is all the effective except for the little guy who can't afford to transport across the border.


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## Lauri (Sep 20, 2008)

haypoint said:


> Just last week Canada announced that it will except horses for slaughter at three POE (point of entry), Detroit/Windser, Port Huron/Sarnia and Niagria. That cuts off western horses. Perhaps they'll go to Mexico?


Canada has been accepting (at least through Detroit/Windsor) for sometime now. 
The horses are off loaded at ****** facility for food and rest before going through customs. For the most part they are in good shape, with an occasional transportation injury. Probably with no higher injury ratio, when moving that number of horses, than what is seen in the general public.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

As much as I hate to see any horse end up in a slaughter house, it's so much better than starving to death in a pasture or abandoned. There just is no good solution. When a dog gets old and is no longer useful, most get to spend their golden years lying in front of a fireplace in their owner's house. Not many people can afford to keep an aged or crippled horse until it dies of old age and even burying an old horse is very expensive if you don't own a backhoe. Reopening the slaughter houses at least insures that these old animals don't die of starvation or that their bodies don't go to waste.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

Slaughter of horses bother me, but Since I have no other solution to the problems, this is one of the few horse issues I have no opinion on


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

BarbadosSheep said:


> Not many people can afford to keep an aged or crippled horse until it dies of old age and even burying an old horse is very expensive if you don't own a backhoe. Reopening the slaughter houses at least insures that these old animals don't die of starvation or that their bodies don't go to waste.


All my girls (just ended up that way) have a "retirement" plan, even the goats. If they have worked for me, then they stay and have care til death.
I try to make that choice when I got an animal, picturing it being here years without being direct use to me. That thought restrained my impulse buying a number of times.

Of course, their retirement plan ends if something happens to me but it is the best I can do.


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

As much as I hate to say it - thank goodness.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

The laws for humane hauling, required stops to feed and water, no double-decker trucks ARE IN PLACE. Along with those are laws for humane treatement at the slaughter plants. All the laws are ALREADY THERE but need enforcing!! 

With proper enforcement, the problems of humane treatment would be 95% removed. I REALLY don't see why they are not enforced, the States would easily turn big proftis in fines! Totally a winning situations!!

I hate to see horses go to slaughter, but it IS better than killing them by starvation, turning TAME horses loose in unknown areas, to let them die "someplace else". Poor people can't afford to have horses put down, when they can't afford groceries! You can't give the equines away. 

Sorry to sound awful, but slaughter prices hold up the base of our horse market. We could "always" get a few dollars at slaughter, so the animal was worth selling. With no 
slaughter market, those animals are worth nothing, so they get treated as worthless.

We NEED some slaughter plants back in production for the sake of those cheap horses. With some kind of value, at least the end would be quick. Not tortured as some we see locally. The old and infirm need to be let go, not lingering until they keel over and left to rot while still alive.

Before you get on the bandwagon to close slaughter plants, start yelling about proper enforcement of laws in effect, to get humane treatment and hauling be the BEST way for horses to go to the slaughter plants. The deaths need to be fast and clean, done accurately for least stress on the animals. Lots of checking up on situations would be the key to keeping humane slaughter available for horses and owners who need that option.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

What i've said all along- open the plants back up and regulate the hell out of them. As much as we love horses, they're livestock.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

[[[[......If they have worked for me, then they stay and have care til death.....]]]]

That's a nice goal and I hope it works for you. But what happens if you lose your job and the farm gets foreclosed on? What if you or your child (pray it doesn't happen) become very ill and all the money has to go to medical bills?

It's a good thing to plan to keep an animal forever, but sometimes life doesn't allow it. There are a lot of people out there who never thought they would not be able to feed their horse, but they didn't foresee 3 years of unemployment, either. Look at all the ads for free horses on Craigslist. Those ads are there because their people can't afford to feed them, pay for their vets, get their feet trimmed any more. I'm sure that wasn't the plan at the time they got the horse.

Unfortunately, there are not a lot of people who can afford to take those free horses and give them a continued good life.


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

_The laws for humane hauling, required stops to feed and water, no double-decker trucks ARE IN PLACE. Along with those are laws for humane treatement at the slaughter plants. All the laws are ALREADY THERE but need enforcing!!

With proper enforcement, the problems of humane treatment would be 95% removed. I REALLY don't see why they are not enforced, the States would easily turn big proftis in fines! Totally a winning situations!!_

Because there is always someone out there looking for a loop hole or make a bigger profit, accepting a kickback blah blah humans are corrupt and you can't trust them.. 
Don't get me wrong I see the need, but someone, somewhere will bend a rule and that horse(s) everyone thought was going to be put down quick and merciful, will die in terror and pain not even able to understand why? Oh and you certainly couldn't euthanize them and then eat the meat, one of my aunt's worked in a slaughterhouse (pigs and cows) she is one of the most down to earth people I know, she has to take sleeping pills to be able to sleep. Don't disillusion yourself. It is a hard choice! Of course there is that saying...give em and inch and they will take a mile.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> What i've said all along- open the plants back up and regulate the hell out of them. As much as we love horses, they're livestock.


Exactly.


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## rabbitpatch (Jan 14, 2008)

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> What i've said all along- open the plants back up and regulate the hell out of them. As much as we love horses, they're livestock.


Amen Sister.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Man, it is getting tiring... listening to the "Pretty Pink Pony People", complain about the evils of horse slaughter.
These people have never been around horses, they have never rescued, they sit at home in their comfy chairs........
They don't see the 100's of thousands of horse's all over this country, slowly starving to death. They don't see the rescue's can't keep up....
Or the horse's just dumped to fend for themselves.

Is better to humanly slaughter them, than let them suffer like this.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

bergere said:


> Man, it is getting tiring... listening to the "Pretty Pink Pony People", complain about the evils of horse slaughter.
> These people have never been around horses, they have never rescued, they sit at home in their comfy chairs........
> They don't see the 100's of thousands of horse's all over this country, slowly starving to death. They don't see the rescue's can't keep up....
> Or the horse's just dumped to fend for themselves.
> Is better to humanly slaughter them, than let them suffer like this.


I agree ... I get so frustrated with these people. I'd like to take them by the scruff of the neck, haul them out to a pasture where half a dozen horses have been abandoned and half have already died of starvation and ask them to tell me WHY this is so much more humane than slaughter!


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

SFM in KY said:


> I agree ... I get so frustrated with these people. I'd like to take them by the scruff of the neck, haul them out to a pasture where half a dozen horses have been abandoned and half have already died of starvation and ask them to tell me WHY this is so much more humane than slaughter!


You and me both.

I asked a couple of people, could you afford to take 20 to 30 horse's in, feed them up, get them healthy and afford to keep them the rest of their lives, Properly cared for. And have everyone they know do the same?
All I got was silence.

They want to preach, but they sure don't want to walk the walk.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

I so agree. My Sister-in-law is one of the "pretty pink pony" people. We can't even discuss this. She is dead set against horse slaughter and she has never been any where near a horse. I would much rather have a horse sent to slaughter then to starve to death.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

hiddensprings said:


> I so agree. My Sister-in-law is one of the "pretty pink pony" people. We can't even discuss this. .


Most of the anti-slaughter people are like this, you cannot discuss it with them rationally as they aren't rational over the idea. They rant and rave against slaughter but they have no solution for the problems it has caused and will not address the problem other than to say the 'irresponsible breeders need to quit breeding'.

But you can not get them to discuss the problem as it actually exists. It is what it is and you have to deal with the problems from a practical position ... what will actually work more or less. Ideal solution, no, of course not. But there really is no practical, rational way to change it.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

Of course this is all over the news right now. They do not talk about the dangerous horses, the sickly horses, or the starving ones. They simple say how outrageous it is while they show flowy flowery vanners and fresians on the screen.....as if.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

lasergrl said:


> Of course this is all over the news right now. They do not talk about the dangerous horses, the sickly horses, or the starving ones. They simple say how outrageous it is while they show flowy flowery vanners and fresians on the screen.....as if.


Don't forget the slanted dramatizations of stories of horses "cut apart kicking and screaming". 

Yes, it was frontline news today and FB friends that aren't horse people are sharing it and thinking how aweful that people would even think of eating horse meat. They fail to realize that people already eat horsemeat and that horses, even US horses, are slaughtered for horsemeat.

_Nothing_ has changed except now they will be slaughtered on US soil, under US regs, by workers living in the US.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

neal68 said:


> the main supporter of horse slaughter (slaughterhouse Sue) owns a slaughterhouse so it is no wonder it was passed!!! what a crock!!!!!!!!!!!


Neal, here is a little exercise for folks like yourself. Please write a letter to a cow explaining why it is OK to kill and eat her, but not a horse. I will respond as the cow.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

The livestock industry NEEDS horse slaughter to be reinstated in the USA!

Far too many horses are suffering because of the ban, horses that would be converted into edible protein are now being starved, dumped, or abandoned. 

Jim


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

SFM in KY said:


> I agree ... I get so frustrated with these people. I'd like to take them by the scruff of the neck, haul them out to a pasture where half a dozen horses have been abandoned and half have already died of starvation and ask them to tell me WHY this is so much more humane than slaughter!


I do have some pics you can show them, if you'd like........


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

lasergrl said:


> Of course this is all over the news right now. They do not talk about the dangerous horses, the sickly horses, or the starving ones. They simple say how outrageous it is while they show flowy flowery vanners and fresians on the screen.....as if.


You know what I bet they're NOT mentioning?
Gypsies (cobs) were the original meat horse!


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## RedSonja (May 16, 2010)

I am glad I'm not the only person that thinks this is a good thing. Not that I like the thought of horses going for meat. Not because I want to eat horse meat. But because I own horses that were rescued from people that could no longer afford to feed them. It's not pretty. I've also been told a nearby state park now requires horse trailers to stop and have a head count going in and out the gate - because people were hauling them in, turning them loose and leaving. Now there is a population of starving dying horses in this park.

Yes, as much as I love horses, they are livestock. Better they have a swift end and the carcass used instead of wasted, than slow lingering miserable death with no good to come of it.

-Sonja


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

So my facebook is going crazy with all this. I have a ton of horsey friends on my facebook. It ranges from a nice girl I know that has her pet horses for years saying she would actually like to try horsemeat, to a backyard breeder FREAKING OUT and calling Obama a murderer... ok...


I put a big joke on my wall saying that i was going to petition to ban the slaughter of cattle and that I was going to put ranchers out of business..and that me and my friends were going to rescue them all and find homes for 150 million of them. The amount of people that thought I was serious. Wow. Even when the conversation took an hilarious turn regarding replacing dogs with pigs cause pigs were smarter than dogs anyway. i said we could all eat dog bacon. *sigh* People still thought i was serious. No one got the point about how I was taking a dig at the people who are trying to ban horse slaughter (in Canada at least). Oh well. 



Today my sister actually said.. well HOW could a horse starve to death!?? Grass is everywhere and free isn't it? ya..sure..and I'm not going to spend $1200 in hay this year. Cause it's free, right? :smack


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Jackie said:


> Today my sister actually said.. well HOW could a horse starve to death!?? Grass is everywhere and free isn't it? ya..sure..and I'm not going to spend $1200 in hay this year. Cause it's free, right? :smack


OMG, that is priceless!! Yeah, free....if you were one of those "freegrazers" back in 1890 or something....just roamin' from place to place and grazin' on the way. 

I wish my pasture just "grew" for free too. I have never tried to calculate what it costs to maintain it -- diesel in the tractor to mow, time spent to pick manure, pasture seed, weed pulling, fencing probably has to go in there somewhere, not to mention the actual cost per acre of my free grass. :smack:


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## Terry W (Mar 10, 2006)

I live in an area where horses are transported to Canada for slaughter-- and at the auctions, not even the kill buyers will take a thin horse-- so those horses go unsold, and wind up remaining at the auction site, usually to be given away to anyone willing to take it, before the fella comes to put a bullet in it's brain.
A couple horse keeping friends have to check their pastures every day, still, for 'new' horses-- these dumped animals can introduce 'who knows what' into their herds.. One friend, when her husband died, had to thin the herd, and by that time, the lack of slaughter in the states had driven the prices way down-- many of her culls were 'home for life' animals that had supported the farm business- but with the death of the husband, no money to care for 60 excess animals was being generated.
The reinstatement of horse slaughter may very well help raise the average selling prices of the good animals that still have some working life left in them, yet are not part of the very high priced animal market.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

People that aren't in the horse world don't understand that it's not as easy as "rescuing" a dog or a cat. Most of us saw this coming as soon as they banned slaughter 5 years ago. Unfortunately during that time thousands of horses suffered and died while idiots patted themselves on the back for saving horses from slaughter. :grump:


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Jackie said:


> Today my sister actually said.. well HOW could a horse starve to death!?? Grass is everywhere and free isn't it? ya..sure..and I'm not going to spend $1200 in hay this year. Cause it's free, right? :smack



Ask her if her pet dog would survive if she turned it loose....afterall, there is game everywhere, right? People don't seem to realize that domesticated varieties of animals are NOT the same hardy critters that God invented. Man has intervened and made them dependant on us. And their livespan is twice that of a dog, with many of those years being unusable. As much as I hate to see horses slaughtered, it is necessary and NO different than slaughtering cattle. I DO hope it's more tightly controlled though so that animals that animals do not have to suffer needlessly. Transporting them across state to a slaughter house has got to be much better than the current method of transporting them across the country and into Mexico or Canada.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

SFM in KY said:


> I've been seeing discussions about this other places as well, including a couple of equine-only sites that have a big percentage of professional horse people that post regularly on those sites (not specifically horse breeders, but owners/competition riders/trainers, etc. ... the Chronicle is one of them).
> 
> I am seeing a noticeable change in the general attitude from several years ago when the law against horse slaughter was passed. Then, there were very few people who opposed the ban and the few people posting that this was likely to *not* be a good solution were instantly flamed.
> 
> ...


You're right. I remember when the ban first came out and so many people were for it and I've watched the horse market come crashing to the ground in flames. I've even watched beautiful show horses with proven records not move. Part of it is the economy. Not only do people not have the money to buy a horse, but no money to feed them either. But a lot of it is the market is just flooded with horses. I have seen more "free" horse ads than I can keep count of and even a lot of those aren't moving. I've heard of quite a few stories now of people with strange horses showing up in their pastures or horses running free or starving to death because they can't get rid of them or the people would rather starve them then give them away. :shrug:

I think the re-opening is a good idea. Maybe it'll stabilize the market and give an out for all these unwanted horses. At least I hope so.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Hopefully this link will work ... this is one of the most rational articles I've read discussing the slaughter ban and it's effects ... unintended, but disastrous. It's just unfortunate that the more irrational anti-slaughter proponents cannot read this article and understand what their efforts have brought about.

http://sidelinesnews.com/blogs/laurengallops/for-the-love-of-horses-pt-1.html


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

a horse is just as sentient and just as capable of suffering as a cow. I don't see anybody arguing to ban the slaughter of cattle in the US. 

It just doesn't make logical sense. People are against horse slaughter because there is an emotional attachment that we have to horses that we don't have to cattle and other animals that are routinely slaughtered for meat.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

I don't see the difference between eating horses and eating cows, pigs, or chickens. I'd try horse meat if the opportunity presented itself; I've heard it's very good!


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## oz in SC V2.0 (Dec 19, 2008)

I came here to see what everyone thought about this,and was surprised so many could see the logic of it.

I have been posting on this topic on another forum and it is scary how...clueless people can be,even those who profess to know all about horses.

It is unfortunate that there are horses that end up being slaughtered,but it is pretty much a guarantee unless almost all breeding of horses is stopped.

What is frightening is that some people proposed that the gov. step in and regulate the breeding of horses...:shocked:

Anyway,good to see there aren't a bunch of P.P.P. people here...


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## Sabrina67 (Mar 24, 2008)

At one time I was totally against the practice. But seeing they way things have been the last few years around here...I can see where it has its place.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

oz in SC V2.0 said:


> I came here to see what everyone thought about this,and was surprised so many could see the logic of it.
> 
> I have been posting on this topic on another forum and it is scary how...clueless people can be,even those who profess to know all about horses.
> 
> ...


No one seems to believe me when I say this, but where I live lots of people breed horses FOR meat. They never had intentions of training them, selling them private or anything. Horses are not like cows in the sense that they CAN be allowed to run in huge pastures all winter without hay or water as long as their is grass under a real good snow cover. To sell them they dont need to be castrated, branded or tagged. I think of them as lazy mans cattle. If you dont care you can have a herd of horses for FREE and sell some out of the bunch when ever you feel like it. I see it all the time. Someone will come to a sale with 50-60 head of horses all wild as march hares. Doesn't even say on the sheet if they are mares or studs cause even the guy selling them didn't bother to look. He just wants a cheque. 

There are a whole bunch of people that breed horses for the market in Japan. I have met a few nice older guys at sales trying to pick up draft mares cheap to breed for the japanese. From what I have been told the Japanese have very specific requirements. Horses have to be a certain size and weight. Basically what they wanted was a draft cross around 2. They also want them LIVE and they ship them in planes to Japan. I actually dated a guy for a while that used to be the one that would help load the horses for Japan at the airport. 

And just today I was cleaning a house for a guy and he was talking about how he had to bring his horses home from pasture. I asked him about his horses and he said they were unpapered halterbroke arab broodmares that he was planning on breeding. I was going to nicely mention that he might not be able to sell the foals too easy....he said he wasn't worried. He was raising the foals to sell for meat! I sure dont hear that too often, but at least the babies aren't going to be starved or abused somewhere down the line.


It's not ALL about over breeding. A lot of horses at kill sales were intentionally bred just to go to a sale.


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## oz in SC V2.0 (Dec 19, 2008)

Jackie said:


> No one seems to believe me when I say this, but where I live lots of people breed horses FOR meat. They never had intentions of training them, selling them private or anything. Horses are not like cows in the sense that they CAN be allowed to run in huge pastures all winter without hay or water as long as their is grass under a real good snow cover. To sell them they dont need to be castrated, branded or tagged. I think of them as lazy mans cattle. If you dont care you can have a herd of horses for FREE and sell some out of the bunch when ever you feel like it. I see it all the time. Someone will come to a sale with 50-60 head of horses all wild as march hares. Doesn't even say on the sheet if they are mares or studs cause even the guy selling them didn't bother to look. He just wants a cheque.
> 
> There are a whole bunch of people that breed horses for the market in Japan. I have met a few nice older guys at sales trying to pick up draft mares cheap to breed for the japanese. From what I have been told the Japanese have very specific requirements. Horses have to be a certain size and weight. Basically what they wanted was a draft cross around 2. They also want them LIVE and they ship them in planes to Japan. I actually dated a guy for a while that used to be the one that would help load the horses for Japan at the airport.
> 
> ...


LOL...this post would cause a few heart attacks over where I was discussing it....

Funny thing is,I like horses,I don't like the idea of them being slaughtered,but there isn't much else to do with them...and if there is a market,why not?


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

oz in SC V2.0 said:


> LOL...this post would cause a few heart attacks over where I was discussing it....
> 
> Funny thing is,I like horses,I don't like the idea of them being slaughtered,but there isn't much else to do with them...and if there is a market,why not?



Ten years ago when I attended almost every kill sale around, horses were bringing in prices very similar in $1 per lb to cattle. If people could sell horses same as they sell cattle why not? Makes no sense to call them heartless if you aren't going to call every cattle rancher heartless too. People like to make money and there is money in selling meat horses. When I was 12 my Dad found a deal on a herd of mares a guy had been raising like cattle for meat. He was actually going to buy them because prices were similar but horses are easier to take care of then cattle. Back when I was 12 I had a VERY different opinion on the matter and needless to say I seriously flipped right out. He didn't end up buying them.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Jackie, the test pilot used to work at the airport a couple years ago and there were 3 cargo planes full of horses every week leaving for Japan. I've been told that as the price of tuna has increased, the deamand for horsemeat had increased dramatically. The buyers pay a fair price and they do expect to receive young healthy horses that are ready for slaugher upon arrival.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

A lot of people here used to breed specifically for meat as well. They'd just run a stallion with a bunch of mares that they never handled. Twice a year they ran everything up to the front, separated the breeders and any foals that were too young, and ran the rest in trailers to take to the local auction. 100s of these animals could be found in several dozen pens along a back section of the auction house. The gates were set up so they could be moved easily to prevent injury and escape since they were completely wild. Then we stopped horse slaughter and those horses didn't just go away. After a couple years people stopped breeding them but not before they filled up every rescue, handed them out to people who knew nothing about horses, shot them, dumped them in others pastures, or turned them loose. Nothing sells at auction anymore. Everything I've seen sent came home or was abandoned in the auction house where after a week of not being claimed they are shot and used as animal food or even human food for the groups who like to live off the land with limited or no electricity.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

wr said:


> Jackie, the test pilot used to work at the airport a couple years ago and there were 3 cargo planes full of horses every week leaving for Japan. I've been told that as the price of tuna has increased, the deamand for horsemeat had increased dramatically. The buyers pay a fair price and they do expect to receive young healthy horses that are ready for slaugher upon arrival.


THANK YOU! You are the only other person I have met that also knows the Japan story (besides the people that told me the story). Everyone I know thinks I am lying! I am glad I am not the only one who knows the truth. lol! I tried finding facts on the internet to back up my story but couldnt find anything. And i do know of guys who breed them especially for Japan. I was told the planes were Fed Ex planes. But that seems so crazy that I usually leave that part out when I try to explain to people that the Japanese want them live. I can't even believe the number of people that think horses are slaughtered just for dog food and glue. Probably half the people signing anti-slaughter petitions figure that there are other ways of making dog food so why kill horses for it.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

akane said:


> A lot of people here used to breed specifically for meat as well. They'd just run a stallion with a bunch of mares that they never handled. Twice a year they ran everything up to the front, separated the breeders and any foals that were too young, and ran the rest in trailers to take to the local auction. 100s of these animals could be found in several dozen pens along a back section of the auction house. The gates were set up so they could be moved easily to prevent injury and escape since they were completely wild. Then we stopped horse slaughter and those horses didn't just go away. After a couple years people stopped breeding them but not before they filled up every rescue, handed them out to people who knew nothing about horses, shot them, dumped them in others pastures, or turned them loose. Nothing sells at auction anymore. Everything I've seen sent came home or was abandoned in the auction house where after a week of not being claimed they are shot and used as animal food or even human food for the groups who like to live off the land with limited or no electricity.


Is this in the US? I have been told time and time again on other forums that NO americans breed horses for meat. I find that to be a little strange since they used to be worth a bit of money at kill sales and money is money. You dont even have to touch a horse to get money for it at a sale.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

Middle of the midwest.


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## Judith (Jan 10, 2003)

It is about time! With all these horses starving to death the plants finally open up again. I love horse but they are darn hard to flush when their time is near.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

This is totally 100% unbelievable but apparently true. PETA even agrees with re-opening slaughter in the US. Now did y'all ever think PETA would be on our side?? Ever? This is the only scrap of common sense I have ever seen from them. 


http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/1...?cmpid=addthis_facebook#.TtaXvSoVFh8.facebook


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## oz in SC V2.0 (Dec 19, 2008)

What was PETA's position about closing down horse slaughterhouses back a few years ago???

From what I can find,they were supporting it.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

oz in SC V2.0 said:


> What was PETA's position about closing down horse slaughterhouses back a few years ago???
> 
> From what I can find,they were supporting it.


ya but it seems as though they realized, like many other people, that was a dumb idea. I dont think anyone realized that if they closed slaughter plants in the US that they were still going to be slaughtered.


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## oz in SC V2.0 (Dec 19, 2008)

Jackie said:


> ya but it seems as though they realized, like many other people, that was a dumb idea. I dont think anyone realized that if they closed slaughter plants in the US that they were still going to be slaughtered.


Or it is political.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

oz in SC V2.0 said:


> Or it is political.


It always is with them.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Jackie said:


> Is this in the US? I have been told time and time again on other forums that NO americans breed horses for meat. I find that to be a little strange since they used to be worth a bit of money at kill sales and money is money. You dont even have to touch a horse to get money for it at a sale.


I haven't met anyone who bred horses for meat, BUT I have met a LOT of backyard breeders that would take their yearly crop of lowgrade foals to the "market" or "sales". Specially colored or marked ones might have found homes as a trail or family horse or to another lowgrade backyard breeder, the rest just *ahem* "sold". 

Never met a breeder who acknowledged the majority of their crop went to the meatman. Don't ask, don't tell, just sell. It's where the American meat market comes from. 

Many of these backyard breeders that I know are the same ones that oppose the slaughter but they complain how horse prices have dropped and feed prices have skyrocketed. Then they coo over their new crop of cute baby horses.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Well lets not "put the horse before the cart" here.
Many States have Laws making it Illegal to sell horse meat. Those States either have to repeal their laws, or the horses being processed will be just shipped over seas like they are doing already from Canada.
This Bill that was repealed basically open up plants to process horses for human consumption, but did not do a thing for the States have laws against selling horse meat for humans to eat.
So it will be quite some time, if ever, you will see horse meat sold at your local store. And if only one or 2 plants do open up they could not supply very many in the US anyway, as the market is over seas not here in the states.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

wolffeathers said:


> Many of these backyard breeders that I know are the same ones that oppose the slaughter but they complain how horse prices have dropped and feed prices have skyrocketed. Then they coo over their new crop of cute baby horses.


Ah yes. I have many of these people on my facebook (due to adding just about every person on horse forums i frequent). Some even hate backyard breeders, but they are breeding unregistered pretty colored horses...so...what are they? I guess these people don't own a mirror.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

arabian knight said:


> So it will be quite some time, if ever, you will see horse meat sold at your local store. And if only one or 2 plants do open up they could not supply very many in the US anyway, as the market is over seas not here in the states.


I haven't met anyone that thinks that horse meat is for americans/canadians to eat. I *think* everyone is aware that the meat is sold over seas. Like how many people eat rabbit, duck, deer, buffalo, etc, yet you pretty much never see those in the local grocery store either. At least not where I live.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Jackie said:


> I haven't met anyone that thinks that horse meat is for americans/canadians to eat. I *think* everyone is aware that the meat is sold over seas. Like how many people eat rabbit, duck, deer, buffalo, etc, yet you pretty much never see those in the local grocery store either. At least not where I live.


Up until 1986 I believe it was some of the finest restaurants in NYC sold horse meat.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Jackie said:


> I haven't met anyone that thinks that horse meat is for americans/canadians to eat. I *think* everyone is aware that the meat is sold over seas. Like how many people eat rabbit, duck, deer, buffalo, etc, yet you pretty much never see those in the local grocery store either. At least not where I live.


We have rabbit, duck, deer, buffalo, and elk for sale on a regular basis at our local grocery stores. People around here eat them frequently.


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## 65284 (Sep 17, 2003)

Jackie said:


> There are a whole bunch of people that breed horses for the market in Japan. I have met a few nice older guys at sales trying to pick up draft mares cheap to breed for the japanese. From what I have been told the Japanese have very specific requirements. Horses have to be a certain size and weight. Basically what they wanted was a draft cross around 2. They also want them LIVE and they ship them in planes to Japan. I actually dated a guy for a while that used to be the one that would help load the horses for Japan at the airport.



Jackie, I believe you, and it's not just in Canada. My BIL is a vet and about 5 years ago did the pre-flight medical examinations on several loads of horses bound for Japan. They were checked then quarantined and checked again before being flown out of Chicago.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> We have rabbit, duck, deer, buffalo, and elk for sale on a regular basis at our local grocery stores. People around here eat them frequently.


I WISH! We just get chicken, turkey, beef, pork or fish.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> We have rabbit, duck, deer, buffalo, and elk for sale on a regular basis at our local grocery stores. People around here eat them frequently.


We have duck in the grocery stores here, but venison is illegal to sell in WI. Buffalo and rabbit you'd have to get from someone who raises them. I think people would flip out if they saw horsemeat in a grocery store. Shame, because everyone I've talked to who's eaten it says its delicious. 

Though, if someone wanted to fill their freezer quite cheaply right now, a horse would be the way to go.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Geez, I had a post get lost. Live horses have been shipped to Japan for quite some time and as tuna has become more expensive, horse is becoming very popular. The test pilot was working at the airport at the beginning of your slaughter ban and he prefered to work nights, which is strictly cargo flights and at that time, at least 3 times a week, cargo planes loaded with live horses came from the US enroute to Japan. At one time, had shown me pictures of how the cargo planes are set up for horses and, they're literally just divided into pens with portable panels and horses were quite comfortable.

The horses we send to Japan spend a specific amount of time in an equine feedlot, which serves to ensure they're in ideal condition and all known drugs would be out of their system.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> We have rabbit, duck, deer, buffalo, and elk for sale on a regular basis at our local grocery stores. People around here eat them frequently.


Even Walmart sells rabbit, buffalo and duck around here, vension can't be sold it's just for home consumption- I have no idea why. My youngest's favorite meal is buffalo burgers on the grill, and I make a fantastic venision stew.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

arabian knight said:


> Well lets not "put the horse before the cart" here.
> Many States have Laws making it Illegal to sell horse meat. Those States either have to repeal their laws, or the horses being processed will be just shipped over seas like they are doing already from Canada.
> This Bill that was repealed basically open up plants to process horses for human consumption, but did not do a thing for the States have laws against selling horse meat for humans to eat.
> So it will be quite some time, if ever, you will see horse meat sold at your local store. And if only one or 2 plants do open up they could not supply very many in the US anyway, as the market is over seas not here in the states.


I can only find two States where it's illegal to sell horse meat- CA and IL. I can remember horse in the meat case in the '70s here in NY.


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## gracie88 (May 29, 2007)

Mikey says, "Save a cow, eat a horse."


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

Jackie said:


> Ah yes. I have many of these people on my facebook (due to adding just about every person on horse forums i frequent). Some even hate backyard breeders, but they are breeding unregistered pretty colored horses...so...what are they? I guess these people don't own a mirror.


Thank you! I have the same complaint for so many breeders of horses, dogs, and other domestic animals that are not intentionally bred for slaughter, and often meet a much worse fate. 

Horses are not killed for dog food anymore, they are too expensive, there are lots of cheaper sources of meat that are much easier to obtain for dog food factories.

Having taken part in slaughtering and butchering several cows and goats, and toured 2 slaughterhouses in Vermont, slaughterhouses are not fun places, and killing and butchering an animal is not a fun, light hearted process. But neither is a wolf killing a deer. I had a goat picked off by a bobcat earlier this summer. Killing him with a bullet in the head would have been much more humane, but that's nature, and we are a part of it. It's hard to have a slaughterhouse that doesn't stress out animals, but people like Temple Grandin have made huge strides in the industry to make improvements. If we are going to eat meat as a society (and we are) then we need slaughterhouses.

Also, I honestly believe that taking a dead animal and turning it into food is one of the best things you can do with it. A million times better than pumping its body full of euthaniasia chemicals and then burying it in the ground, where those chemicals will eventually leech out into your soil. 

In a perfect world, there would be no need for horse slaughter. But we don't live in a perfect world, there is a horse overpopulation problem, and a human food shortage in many parts of the world. It seems the answer is obvious.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

TroutRiver said:


> In a perfect world, there would be no need for horse slaughter. But we don't live in a perfect world


Exactly. People need to deal with reality not wishful thinking.

Discussions between the pro-slaughter and anti-slaughter people remind me a lot of reviews of the reports of negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians. A polarizing issue with no middle ground for either side. 

Unfortunate, because without a solution both sides can agree to work for it is all the more likely that solutions will not be found and it is ultimately the horses that suffer.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

As a generalization, Americans don't eat horse meat. I don't expect to see it in the markets. Perhaps with the exception of a few ethnic markets.

However, it used to be very common to buy canned horse meat intended to be dog food.

It used to be a terrible insult to tell someone that Dr Ross had called and wanted to buy their horse. (Dr Ross canned dog food, in case they don't make it any more and the younger don't know what it is)


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

I HATE HATE HATE the idea of horse slaughterhouses but what we're doing now isn't working. There are all sorts of animals that Americans wouldn't dream of eating (dogs, for one) but are considered delicacies elsewhere. I remember Grandma's pet cow very fondly. She followed kids around and kept guard over them. She was a wonderful watch-cow and a great pet. My grandparents raised Black Angus. She must have been a fond reminder of that time. My point is that we can make pets of all sorts of meat animals. I even remember someone on HT talking about their house trained bird (duck or goose?), Mr. Poopyman. I think she (yes, she) slept on or near the bed and was towel trained.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

Joshie said:


> My point is that we can make pets of all sorts of meat animals. .


yup! Just like we made pets out of horses.  :happy2:


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## Maddiequus (Nov 4, 2003)

Forgive me...I don't understand.

It's a *good* thing that we're sending horses (who have not been bred to be dumb like most livestock) through the slaughterhouses (which is, as I understand, fairly traumatic) to be sold for overseas consumption?

What about withdrawal times on wormer and meds? Who's footing the bill for the feed and recouperation? It can take a LONG time to get weight back on a horse, and you can't tell me every horse run through the slaughter system is fat and happy. People keep citing full rescues, animal cruelty/neglect.... Let me tell you, the backyard breeders next door to me don't send their inbred foals to auction. I've NEVER heard of a case, in fact, where even seized animals were sent to slaughter. They're always "humanely euthanized". That's gotta cost somebody money.

So where exactly is the benefit? I don't get it. Why don't we subsidize the cost of euthanasia as well or instead? Why aren't we using horses for pet food (a multi-BILLION dollar per year industry)?

I do think that, if we're going to slaughter something as perceptive as a horse, there should be special set-ups and regulations designed to minimize the fear and pain. Horses are livestock, yes, but there's a big difference between a horse and a pig, for instance. If that weren't true we'd be riding cows as companions.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Maddiequus said:


> Forgive me...I don't understand.
> 
> It's a *good* thing that we're sending horses (who have not been bred to be dumb like most livestock) through the slaughterhouses (which is, as I understand, fairly traumatic) to be sold for overseas consumption?
> 
> ...


(emphasis mine) There is absolutely no difference between a horse, cow, goat, or sheep- they are all livestock. Period. Just because a horse is "pretty" doesn't make it any better than a cow, pig, or goat. Do you think a cow deserves "special setups and regulations" for slaughter? If not, why? It's sentient the same as any other animal, and trainable just as goats, sheep, and pigs. 

The withdrawal of dewormers is roughly two weeks, but why is that an issue? Unless _you_ eat the meat it's a moot point.

We NEED equine slaughter in the US, and to export, because there is a glut of horses that are starving and dying of neglect. The ban on slaughter five years ago was an absolutely stupid move on the government's part.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> (emphasis mine) There is absolutely no difference between a horse, cow, goat, or sheep- they are all livestock. Period. Just because a horse is "pretty" doesn't make it any better than a cow, pig, or goat. Do you think a cow deserves "special setups and regulations" for slaughter? If not, why? It's sentient the same as any other animal, and trainable just as goats, sheep, and pigs.
> 
> The withdrawal of dewormers is roughly two weeks, but why is that an issue? Unless _you_ eat the meat it's a moot point.
> 
> We NEED equine slaughter in the US, and to export, because there is a glut of horses that are starving and dying of neglect. The ban on slaughter five years ago was an absolutely stupid move on the government's part.



Thank you! ALL animals need to be treated fairly. THey ALL deserve humane living conditions, humane transport and as trauma free a death as possible. I can't sit back and say...omg! Dont upset a horsey! But feel free to use what ever method you want to kill a chicken.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Actually, on most of the lists I've seen, pigs are rated above horses on the animal intelligence scales.


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## Maddiequus (Nov 4, 2003)

Everyone argues but nobody answered my questions. I'm not saying don't kill horses (and it has nothing to do with them being pretty), nor am I saying dispatch them all! If wormers/meds aren't an issue, why not euthanize the glut of homeless horses and grind them up for pet food? 
If the point is to relieve the horses' suffering, it seems to me the method is wrong. As I understand it, the old and neglected are passed over in favor of the healthy horses who will bring more money. There is a very definite difference in how various species process things. Our US slaughterhouse system (designed by Temple Gradin) is based on cattle. I'm merely suggesting it should be altered or revamped to work ethically for horses as well. 
If the point is to relieve the burden on....wait, whose burden is it, again? Am I, Jane Q. Taxpayer, footing the bill for unwanted horses to eat somewhere? As far as I know, there are no federal rescues where unwanted horses are held until sufficiently healthy for slaughter under government subsidy. From what I've read, this bill gives the government carte blanche to slaughter wild mustang herds. Can I voluntarily drive up to a slaughterhouse with my 30 year old horse and say "Please take care of this for me, I can't afford the vet bill"? Will state/local legislature send seized horses to slaughter instead of euthanizing them?

Apparently states still have the right to keep slaughterhouses from opening in their borders? Which means, in some cases, the trip to Mexico or Canada would be shorter (and kinder) than shipping them to the nearest US house.

Can anyone help me understand what this entails in a rational, not confrontational, manner? Please?


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

Maddiequus said:


> Everyone argues but nobody answered my questions. I'm not saying don't kill horses (and it has nothing to do with them being pretty), nor am I saying dispatch them all! If wormers/meds aren't an issue, why not euthanize the glut of homeless horses and grind them up for pet food?
> If the point is to relieve the horses' suffering, it seems to me the method is wrong. As I understand it, the old and neglected are passed over in favor of the healthy horses who will bring more money. There is a very definite difference in how various species process things. Our US slaughterhouse system (designed by Temple Gradin) is based on cattle. I'm merely suggesting it should be altered or revamped to work ethically for horses as well.
> If the point is to relieve the burden on....wait, whose burden is it, again? Am I, Jane Q. Taxpayer, footing the bill for unwanted horses to eat somewhere? As far as I know, there are no federal rescues where unwanted horses are held until sufficiently healthy for slaughter under government subsidy. From what I've read, this bill gives the government carte blanche to slaughter wild mustang herds. Can I voluntarily drive up to a slaughterhouse with my 30 year old horse and say "Please take care of this for me, I can't afford the vet bill"? Will state/local legislature send seized horses to slaughter instead of euthanizing them?
> 
> ...


The cull dairy industry sends millions of old, sick, lame, skinny, diseased, parasitic and otherwise unhealthy cattle into slaughterhouses. Not all meat animals are fat and healthy. That is a sad reality of the meat industry. 

*why not euthanize the glut of homeless horses and grind them up for pet food? *
There are 2 problems here. First, once an animal is euthanized, it's body is toxic. It cannot be fed to other animals safely once those chemicals are injected into the bloodstream. Second, since horsemeat is in high demand in other countries, it is too expensive to be used in pet food (this did not used to be the case, but is now). This is why most cheap pet foods use factory byproducts and other meat products that for one reason or another can't be used for human consumption. I have heard of pet food companies using the remains of euthanized animals, but this is definitely illegal and extremely controversial. 

I do agree, horses are not cattle, and a horse slaughterhouse should not be identical to a cattle slaughterhouse. I am 100% with you on that. But like I said in my previous post, I can be fairly certain that a cow is just as sentient and just as capable of experiencing pain as a horse is. Horses are much more responsive, curious and social than cattle, and therefore may appear to be more intelligent. But they both experience the same physical pain and I don't think that one is inherently set above the other. 

I have worked with horses for over 15 years, I have been working with dairy and beef cows for about a year. I personally would take a horse over a cow any day of my life. I like horses better and I find them easier to work with. But I don't think they are necessarily more intelligent, they're just different, and they interact with humans in different ways. Don't get me wrong, I think horses are extremely intelligent animals. I also think that cows are MUCH more intelligent than most people give them credit for, they just don't have the desire to socialize with humans the way that horses do. Just my personal opinion, not meant to be an attack 

*Can I voluntarily drive up to a slaughterhouse with my 30 year old horse and say "Please take care of this for me, I can't afford the vet bill"? *
Probably not, but you can send him to auction, where he would be sold for meat. I know, I hate the thought of this, too. But this is what happens with the millions of sick dairy cows that farmers decide are too sick or too old to be worth treating. It's a sad truth. 

*Will state/local legislature send seized horses to slaughter instead of euthanizing them?*
Possibly.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

It means that less horses (regardless of age) will die of starvation and/or neglect. Opening slaughter houses in the US will mean less travel time to slaughter and less horses slaughtered in Mexico which has much lower standards of humane dispatch than Canada or US. I read something about feral horses and this law, but the language was vague. I imagine any feral horse that can't be "adopted" out _could_ be sent to slaughter but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. There are horses that _need_ to be slaughtered either due to health/lameness problems, mental issues, training issues, etc. The money gained from being able to sell them spurs on the horse economy and removes the least desirable from the pool making the better horses worth more money. 

I know many people that have driven their old horse to a kill buyer's farm and said, "Please take old Bessie for me" when they have been unable to properly care for it rather than run it through the local auction. This was back when a horse in decent flesh was actually worth something. The slaughter ban made that impossible in some areas of the country so in many cases the horse was neglected. When you lose a job and it comes down to feeding your kids or feeding a horse you do what you have to do.

Horses are sold for export because it pays better than grinding them up for dog food. Although I thought in the 70s using horse meat for pet food was banned but I can't remember why I think it was over feral horses though.

Chemical euthanasia would ruin the meat and that much meat should not be wasted. Horses are livestock and should be treated as such- humanely dispatched via captive bolt.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Maddiequus, I can't answer all of your questions because I don't live in the US but in Canada, you can take your horse directly to the plant and if it is in suitable condition to slaugher for human consumption, they will pay you the going rate for your horse. It would be unlikely to see a slaughter facility take a bunch of skinny rescue horses because they aren't in the business of fattening before butchering. 

I can't comment on what it would take for a facility to be suited to horses but I do know that a facility in Alberta has to meet specific requirements to handle horses and I would expect similar in the US.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

Pigs are actually smarter and cleaner than horses and dogs. That's one of those cases that makes me believe we should not make any slaughter laws based on species except those needed to keep the butchering process humane for each animal. Animals we think of as food often have just as much intelligence or character as the ones we can't imagine eating.

Chemical euthanasia first off means the body is good for nothing, 2nd is highly debated and even disproven in some studies on being more humane than a well aimed bullet or bolt gun, and finally is very expensive. Somewhere in the $800-$1000 to pts and haul or bury the body (illegal now in many areas). The reason it's debated at all is because often shelters or those short on funds will perform chemical euthanasia without sedation first claiming the animal feels nothing since it can't move. Monitoring the brain waves of such animals has shown that may not be true. So the methods used to kill in slaughter houses are potentially the best way even if you were putting a horse down at home. I would gladly use a good bolt gun on any of my pets or livestock before chemicals. It all depends on if the animals are treated with respect and the time is taken plus the knowledge taught to shoot them properly so there are minimal mistakes. I would say no mistakes but that's impossible. I've messed up a few chickens and rabbits here and there while butchering my own. The handling of the animals for slaughter is the main problem and right now sending them off on long trailer rides out of the country is not good handling.


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## Qhorseman (Jul 9, 2010)

I do not like to see horses go to the kill barn anymore than anyone else. But, I am glad they are re-opening. The price of horses will go back up where it should be, it will weed out the casual buyers that buy cheap and then neglect the animals thru ignorance.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Maddiequus said:


> Forgive me...I don't understand.
> 
> It's a *good* thing that we're sending horses (who have not been bred to be dumb like most livestock) through the slaughterhouses (which is, as I understand, fairly traumatic) to be sold for overseas consumption?
> 
> ...


I love my horses, but my goats and dairy cow are smarter and just as perceptive. Pigs are rated higher intelligence then dogs and young human children. Pigs have actually been taught to play video games and have learned how to used refractory images in a mirror, which is kind of interesting.. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/10/science/10angier.html

People *do* ride cows as companions and they've been used as draft animals for very, very long time(ox is a steer trained to pull, there are even ox in the bible). Google riding steers. I think they are not more popular, simply because they are slooowwww(for the most part. LOL).

In other countries horses are specifically bred for meat production, the flipside being now there are pigs being bred here specifically for pets. Have you seen the "micro" pigs that are bred, born and raised to be kept in the house like a toy dog? 

Slaughter in the US is a good thing, because the horses aren't being shipped to Mexico where they use spinal severance(by stabbing at the withers), instead they are using a captive bolt which according to American Veterinary Association is qualified as "humane euthanasia" along with gunshot and chemical euthanasia.

Chemical euthanasia has just as much chance for failure as a captive bolt I think. Many horses react adversely to the chemicals and it's a down right bad experience. Just ask the other experienced horse people here, many of them knew of a horse that reacted adversely to chemical euthanasia. On top of that chemical euth makes the carcass toxic, one of the reasons you cannot bury your horse whereever, lest it poison local watersupplies.

Some of the meat will make it to the pet food industry, especially the zoo industry. They prefer feeding horse to the big carnivors like the big cats, but since horse slaughter has been banned, it's made getting a superior food for their cats much harder. In some places, you are still able to donate your horse to a big cat sactuary, they will kill it with a bullet or captive bolt and feed the donated meat to the carnivores. You don't hear about it often because of some of the radical opposition. I think there was one or two private slaughter houses that would still butcher your horse for you for "pet consumption"(like raw milk LOL) but they kept quiet to avoid animal rights attention.

I don't think that anyone here would argue that the slaughterhouses need to be regulated for animal welfare. That's why US slaughter houses are a good thing, because there ARE regulations controlling animal welfare. In the US horses can't be loaded onto double decker cattle trucks. They have to be killed using a humane method(captive bolt is legally under humane euth). Many of the anti-slaughter videos come from Mexican slaughter houses, yet they were used to close down US slaughter(which inevitably increased the amount of horses having to die south of the border).

No, meat buyers aren't buying the skeletons. But many times there is a good deal of time before the horses come into that shape, giving owners ample opportunity to sell a healthy horse before it stands in the pasture and starves. 


I love my horses, but I've also had cows. They knew their names and I'm pretty sure she was more intelligent than my horses(the geldings at least LOL). The bull calf we took to slaughter 2 weeks ago was reacting to his name and verbal commands, despite the new sounds and sights of never being off the farm, even as we lead him through the doors. My chickens know which feed bin holds their favorite feed, they know which car is mine, they know they only need to run if I'm carrying the net. The goats all know their names, listen to verbal commands, and know that when I'm feeding the rest of the barn they can shimmy under the gate, sneak into the barn, because I've left the feedroom door open. They know to run if they see me and they are NOT in their pasture, they know when they are in trouble. Livestock are not stupid and they are not bred to be stupid. 

Even commercial bred laying chickens have been trained to run obstacle courses and recognize shapes and colors.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJtf9YxZkNI[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QacnqdH30A4&feature=related[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSgFDxMKoH0&feature=related[/ame]


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> (emphasis mine) There is absolutely no difference between a horse, cow, goat, or sheep- they are all livestock. Period. Just because a horse is "pretty" doesn't make it any better than a cow, pig, or goat. Do you think a cow deserves "special setups and regulations" for slaughter? If not, why? It's sentient the same as any other animal, and trainable just as goats, sheep, and pigs.
> 
> The withdrawal of dewormers is roughly two weeks, but why is that an issue? Unless _you_ eat the meat it's a moot point.
> 
> We NEED equine slaughter in the US, and to export, because there is a glut of horses that are starving and dying of neglect. The ban on slaughter five years ago was an absolutely stupid move on the government's part.


As usual, I agree. 

I do know, after reading various news stories, that the USDA is laying down stricter regulations on horse slaughter. Now, if they actually implement them, it'll be great.
All animals deserve respect, period. 

Also, the kill buyers I know usually hold the horses for a bit, either because they're waiting on a full load or they want to feed them up. Many kill buyers do some evaluation and sell those horses that may make good riding horses.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

SFM in KY said:


> Actually, on most of the lists I've seen, pigs are rated above horses on the animal intelligence scales.


Yep. If you don't believe this try building a fence that will hold a starving pig.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I don't think it's intentional but I keep seeing comments that suggest that the US slaughter industry is regulated and then there's Canada and Mexico. I'd like to point out that our slaughter industry regulations are quite stringent and likely just as regulated as the US.


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## Maddiequus (Nov 4, 2003)

wr - my aunt worked for many years in the slaughterhouse near Ft. Macleod (my dad's family is from Taber, my mom's is from Lethbridge). YES, there ARE regulations. Try growing up as a horse-loving kid/horse-owning young adult and going to family reunions with the aunt who kills them for a living! lol AWKWARD!

All, thank you for the insight.

I did not mean to say that horses are smarter than other livestock. I've had my share of horses, chickens, ducks, sheep, etc and there are idiots and geniuses...just like people.

It will certainly be interesting to see how this plays out. I'm still not sure if I understand how the federal reopening of slaughterhouses affects each state. 

My poor horses are lucky they live on top of a hill tonight - everything is flooding. Our pond has risen probably 10 feet the last couple of days and a neighboring "pond" in a low spot is eating my front pasture! The dairy down the road has some stocker calves in a low pen, and they're right on the creek which overflowed its banks today. Hope they're alright.

Makes me think of the Tillamook flood in 96...Tillamook County in Oregon has more cows than people, and when the flood subsided they found a cow on top of a doghouse. She was smart enough to climb up. The dog (unchained) drowned. LOL


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Maddiequus said:


> My poor horses are lucky they live on top of a hill tonight - everything is flooding. Our pond has risen probably 10 feet the last couple of days and a neighboring "pond" in a low spot is eating my front pasture!


I'm glad your horses have a hill. Since I've moved to KY I've been thankful this farm is on the side/top of a hill. It was quite a shock for me learning to live in a place where there can be as much rain in one month as we got in a year in MT! I did not realize you could have a sidehill swamp until I moved here.

Hope your front pasture holds ... and the water starts going down.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

wr said:


> I don't think it's intentional but I keep seeing comments that suggest that the US slaughter industry is regulated and then there's Canada and Mexico. I'd like to point out that our slaughter industry regulations are quite stringent and likely just as regulated as the US.


Yes. The only thing terrible about a horse coming to Canada to be slaughtered is the long truck ride.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Maddiequus, when I was a kid, you could still go down to the Fort Macleod facility and buy horses out of the kill pens. The old rancher was a guide and outfitter for quite a few years and pack horses are just not something that's readily available so if he needed replacements, he'd tour the back pens and he'd bring home a half dozen draft crosses and see how they worked out. Pack training week was always interesting.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Maddiequus said:


> If the point is to relieve the burden on....wait, whose burden is it, again? Am I, Jane Q. Taxpayer, footing the bill for unwanted horses to eat somewhere? As far as I know, there are no federal rescues where unwanted horses are held until sufficiently healthy for slaughter under government subsidy. From what I've read, this bill gives the government carte blanche to slaughter wild mustang herds.


With a healthy horse slaughter industry people will willingly buy thin horses to fatten up. Buy a bunch of thin horses in the spring, run them on grass over the summer, and by fall you will make a ton of money selling for slaughter. No taxpayer money involved. 

Making horses more valuable will not hurt taxpayers at all and will in fact greatly benefit them.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Not sure how fast any processing plants for horses will be opening up.
Yes there can be processing horses for humans again BUT I just heard on our local radio's ag report, that NO Money was allocated for ANY USDA inspectors~!
So who knows when that will tai place.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

arabian knight said:


> Not sure how fast any processing plants for horses will be opening up.
> Yes there can be processing horses for humans again BUT I just heard on our local radio's ag report, that NO Money was allocated for ANY USDA inspectors~!
> So who knows when that will tai place.


They aren't saying that new inspectors _aren't_ in the budget either, just that there was no money allocated specifically for them. The PTB have *finally* realized that the slaughter ban was not the "saving grace" that the animal rights idiots made it out to be, they'll "find" the money for inspectors.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I'm curious to see how long it will take for the local livestock auctions to go back to having horse sales. The one I used to go to here quit selling horses totally two years ago or more because of all the problems. People would bring horses in, nobody would bid at all, owners would go, leaving the horse at the sale yard. Other sellers would be in the sale yard/sale ring during the sale and come out to find a strange horse loaded in their trailer that had been sitting out in the parking lot or tied to the trailer.

There used to be 4 auction yards in KY that had horse sales at least once a month that I know of and I ran into one of the horse dealers I used to know a year or so ago and he said that not one of them were still selling horses.


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## Maddiequus (Nov 4, 2003)

SFM in KY said:


> There used to be 4 auction yards in KY that had horse sales at least once a month that I know of and I ran into one of the horse dealers I used to know a year or so ago and he said that not one of them were still selling horses.


The sale barn in Shepherdsville still sells horses every week.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

We've had three sale barns go under since the ban came into effect.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Maddiequus said:


> The sale barn in Shepherdsville still sells horses every week.


I don't know if the dealer I talked to knew that one was still running horses or not, don't know if he went there usually or not ... one of them might have been in TN as I know he did haul there regularly.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I was at a horse sale this past weekend and had an interesting discussion with one of the horses traders "in the know". He said that all the guys that used to do slaughter here moved their operations to Canada and Mexico and made some good money real quick. He said there is no way they would move their operations back here to the US. They are making money hand over fist and don't have all the regulations. He also said he doesn't know of anyone here in the states that would have the "courage" (he used another word ) to start up a facility again here in the states with all the fanatics against the slaughter here. Just his opinion but I thought I would share


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Minelson, I think somebody is either mistaken or misinforming because our industry is highly regulated and trust me, there's no shortage of rules. It would also be difficult for someone from the US to just set up shop in Canada because of the requirements and tax implications.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

wr said:


> Minelson, I think somebody is either mistaken or misinforming because our industry is highly regulated and trust me, there's no shortage of rules. It would also be difficult for someone from the US to just set up shop in Canada because of the requirements and tax implications.


Maybe it's just Mexico then :shrug:


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## birdman1 (Oct 3, 2011)

If any of these do gooders would buy hay and land to take care of thousands of unwanted horses ;not likely .Slaughtering these animals is as it should be the choise of the owner. who should realisticly be able dispose of thier livestock as they see fit .as it is horses are being hauled off to places like recoped strip mines or remote locations and just released to starve the reasons being the owners not able to care for them any more or just an trainable dangerious horse or taken out of site and put down a slaughter house is a much more humaine end .and the owner recovers some of thier investment


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

[[[[........the old and neglected are passed over in favor of the healthy horses who will bring more money.......]]]]]]

When there were slaughter houses and there were meat buyers for horses, only the very cheapest horses went for meat. That means the old, the lame, the blind, the crazy, and occasionally the really ugly went to the meat buyers. Young healthy horses, even untrained ones, often had buyers who wanted them for a different purpose and they were willing to outbid the meat buyers.

So, no. The old and neglected were not passed over and the healthy nice tempered horses generally were not sent to slaughter. Every meat dealer I ever knew, took all the horses home and any that were decent looking and appeared to be sound were given a test ride and if they were safe to ride, they were sold on as riding horses for a lot more than they were worth as meat

It would not be possible to grind horses up for pet food _BECAUSE THERE ARE NO LICENSED SLAUGHTER HOUSES_.


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

Minelson said:


> I was at a horse sale this past weekend and had an interesting discussion with one of the horses traders "in the know". He said that all the guys that used to do slaughter here moved their operations to Canada and Mexico and made some good money real quick. He said there is no way they would move their operations back here to the US. They are making money hand over fist and don't have all the regulations. He also said he doesn't know of anyone here in the states that would have the "courage" (he used another word ) to start up a facility again here in the states with all the fanatics against the slaughter here. Just his opinion but I thought I would share


Actually, I have met someone in my state that is in the process of building a horse slaughter plant. He has been lobbying for this for a while, and even offered to fund his own inspectors.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

saanengirl said:


> Actually, I have met someone in my state that is in the process of building a horse slaughter plant. He has been lobbying for this for a while, and even offered to fund his own inspectors.


Someone I know in WY said there is a group there that could have a plant up and running in a month and are interested in doing so.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

oregon woodsmok said:


> [[[[........the old and neglected are passed over in favor of the healthy horses who will bring more money.......]]]]]]
> 
> When there were slaughter houses and there were meat buyers for horses, only the very cheapest horses went for meat. That means the old, the lame, the blind, the crazy, and occasionally the really ugly went to the meat buyers. Young healthy horses, even untrained ones, often had buyers who wanted them for a different purpose and they were willing to outbid the meat buyers.
> 
> ...


This is a vast oversimplification. My area has a huge excess of young horses and when slaughter was legal fat young horses brought top dollar from kill buyers, sometimes topping $1 a pound.

You could buy a well trained, well bred thin horse for much less than a fat dink.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

saanengirl said:


> Actually, I have met someone in my state that is in the process of building a horse slaughter plant. He has been lobbying for this for a while, and even offered to fund his own inspectors.


Well good! THe guy I talked to was all doom and gloom


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## gracie88 (May 29, 2007)

> Am I, Jane Q. Taxpayer, footing the bill for unwanted horses to eat somewhere? As far as I know, there are no federal rescues where unwanted horses are held until sufficiently healthy for slaughter under government subsidy. From what I've read, this bill gives the government carte blanche to slaughter wild mustang herds


Well yes, you very well may be. In Burns, OR, the BLM has huge holding pens containing hundreds of horses. They have some pretty nice horses in there, but even at $125 a head, they can not adopt all of them out. They can not turn these horses back on the range because human intervention is the only way to to keep the population under control, so they keep them and feed them. There you go, your tax dollars at work in Oregon. Probably Nevada as well. Also, not all those horses started out as mustangs. The authorities try to keep people from dumping horses, but there's a lot of wide open spaces out there and not that many authorities...


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gracie88 said:


> Well yes, you very well may be. In Burns, OR, the BLM has huge holding pens containing hundreds of horses. They have some pretty nice horses in there, but even at $125 a head, they can not adopt all of them out. They can not turn these horses back on the range because human intervention is the only way to to keep the population under control, so they keep them and feed them. There you go, your tax dollars at work in Oregon. Probably Nevada as well. Also, not all those horses started out as mustangs. The authorities try to keep people from dumping horses, but there's a lot of wide open spaces out there and not that many authorities...


I had someone ask me about the this a couple of weeks ago and I didn't realize there were Federal level holding centers for feral horses. Thank you for posting. :happy2:


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

There has been a lot of talk in the past week about Congress' lifting of the ban prohibiting federal funding for the inspection of horses, which prevented the slaughter of horses for human consumption for the past five years. The issue is understandably a sensitive and emotional one for everyone who loves these majestic animals, but it is important that the discussion be tempered with the facts.



While Congress has technically lifted the ban, horse processing will not resume anytime in the near term. Under the Federal Meat Inspection Act, horses are an amenable species, which means that horse meat cannot be shipped or sold for human consumption without inspection.



To date, there have been no requests that the Department initiate the authorization process for any horse processing operation in the United States. In the two states where horse processing took place prior to the Congressional ban, Illinois and Texas, there are laws in place prohibiting the slaughter of horses. Even if these laws were changed, any processing facility will still need to satisfy a significant number of requirements, such as obtaining a federal grant of inspection, conducting a hazard analysis, and developing a Hazard Analysis & Critical Control Points (HACCP) plan prior to the processing of any animals.





Source: http://tinyurl.com/885ntv8


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Quote:
Am I, Jane Q. Taxpayer, footing the bill for unwanted horses to eat somewhere? As far as I know, there are no federal rescues where unwanted horses are held until sufficiently healthy for slaughter under government subsidy. From what I've read, this bill gives the government carte blanche to slaughter wild mustang herds 

Yes you are paying for unadaptable mustangs to live out their lives on private ranches at taxpayer expense. Seen a documentary several years ago on one of the news shows about this.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Wild Mustangs is more fiction than truth.
For at least 200 years, locals have been capturing the best wild Mustangs for their own use and often times turn loose their undesirable horses. 
What some envision as a horse that has been selected by "survival of the fittest" is often times just the ones left behind as undesirable by local ranchers. Those undesirables become future wild breeding stock.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

The mustangs here are rounded up and the best are turned back out for breeding stock. Sometimes a purebred stallion is turned out with them to upgrade the quality. Basically, they are just unbranded ranch herds, being managed by the BLM for the best production.

I've got to say, though, there are some mighty nice mustangs coming out of Oregon. So whatever the BLM is doing, it's got to be right. The Kigers are gorgeous and highly prized. Plus there is a herd of huge tall pintos; very nice and great riding horses if you can get your hands on one of them.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

haypoint said:


> Wild Mustangs is more fiction than truth.
> For at least 200 years, locals have been capturing the best wild Mustangs for their own use and often times turn loose their undesirable horses.
> What some envision as a horse that has been selected by "survival of the fittest" is often times just the ones left behind as undesirable by local ranchers. Those undesirables become future wild breeding stock.


I have a mustang from Nevada and he is seriously UGLY. Head is way too big for his body, real short back and narrow! Really narrow. He is like riding a skinny pony. He does not give off the 'survival of the fittest' impression at all. Although he does have wonderful hooves!


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Here is my daughter's mustang from Nevada. She is a cutie.


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