# Pony FREAKS at the Farrier



## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Wow. Just wow. He is a young punk, 4yo, who had been being used as a lesson horse already. Sweet natured, the ocassional "who is boss" tussle. So when the farrier came, I figured it would be a non-issue. HOLY CRAP. I have never seen anything like it!! HE yanked his feet away from her, actually backed into her...goodness! I am thinking he was in cross ties where he came from for the farrier, but we don't have cross ties here. My farrier was so good, she backed his punky butt 3/4 across the field, wrestled with him...I was so embarrasssed. I have never seen a horse zap out like that. I have been playing with his feet, lifting them up and putting them back down only when he stops fighting me. After his display, I am nervous trying to pick his feet out!!! I know all the tricks, the rope around the feet and such, and I have taken him back to square one with "stand" and yields and such. I have a trainer friend who is coming by tomorrow to evaluate him, much as I love him he can just move on down the road if this is going to be a thing with him (yes, I would tell the buyer that is why he is being sold). Have you guys ever had this? I know he is a baby, I've never dealt with a horse this young. I thought he had a pretty solid foundation if he was being used for lessons!


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

I go thru that with my donkeys. It's embarrassing. 

What I've learned is to have them tied up before the farrier gets here.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

First IMO standing to have feet trimmed is just too important not to have him do right. So I think I would go back to the very beginning. Cross ties should not be an option.

First I think I might have the vet check out his feet for something like founder. I owned one mare who had feet problems and would pull back when her one front foot was lifted if it meant she had to stand on a bare foot. The farrier just did one complete front foot- trimmng and putting on each foot's shoe seperately so she could always stand on a foot with her protective shoe.
If no physical reason is found, then I would start like a baby with him. Take a foot and get it up and hold it as short a time as possible until he gives just a bit them put it down right away- don't do anything else, just pick and set down. Give him a scratch and a good boy. Give a a minute then repeat. Gradually work each foot this way til he is will to let you hold it up long enough to pick out. Then increase activity til you can start tapping with a hammer and he does nothing.
Don't repeat the awful farrier incident until he is better.
Can be done- have done it. Good luck.

PS Can you ask his former owners about this? A 4 yo must have had some kind of work by his age.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

The farrier was actually there when I purchased the pony, and I asked how he was and the farrier said fine. Of course, he WOULD say that with the owner of the large stable standing right there, lol. I think I agree, no more farrier work until we get to the bottom of this. I can pick his feet up and hold them, if he tries to pull away I continue to hold it until he stops, then I place the foot back on the ground. Is that right?


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I would disengage his hindquarters with gusto every time he tried to take the foot away or doing anything I didn't like. Just have a long lead rope and twirl it at his bum, whack his bum if he doesn't move. Make him hustle around a few circles, then as soon as I stop pick up the foot and go about my business like nothing happened. If you are too nervous, your friend should have no trouble. This should be easy for a trainer unless he's a special case. It is important to keep your head out of the way in case he were to kick. 

Another thing I might do is move the forequarters away, especially good if he is every pushy with his front end as many horses are. I put my hands up towards the head and bump at him in the air. Walk towards his front end expecting him to move. If they don't move, then I'll just bump right into his jaw and make him go. Don't be excitable just matter of fact. 

Actually, before I got into the foot issue I'd do some groundwork to get him thinking right. Once he's willing and responsive, then I'd do the above. This is all assuming he knows what he *should* be doing. A scared horse is a different deal.

Horses can be good at many things, then have their hangups. Just because they are good for one thing doesn't mean they are for another. I doubt it's anything that would be too hard to fix, but never know not seeing the horse in person.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

beccachow- I would certainly start there but the important things is that he gives to you rather than you can hang on. When I have a horse that won't let me HOLD onto his foot, then I do try to keep it flexed and up- if I lose the foot, I go right back to picking it up without pause- no reward for bad behavior. But if he is upset about giving it to me, I start with just his picking it up when I ask but I try to put it down for him to avoid a fight at the beginning. 
If he is really "freaking out" about the farrier, I suppose my instinct would be calm and persistant would be the best solution. If he's just being nasty and isn't really afraid, then you can be stronger in your reactions.
But the two things I insist that my horse's do well is stand for the farrier and vet, and not to push into me. To have a horse that is mannered enough so that my choice of vet and farrier had no reason to not have me as a client is a basic want for me.

But again, with such an extreme reaction, if you can't get him to improve soon, I would have the vet check for pain issues. 

I don't suppose the farrier thought he had foundered or anything?


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I know, guys, I am stunned by this. I've had each one of my horses have a bad day before, where they might lean into the farrier and receive a harsh word, but for the most part they all stand nicely. Except HIM! I do think calm and persistant is the way to go. I've never dealt with a young 'un before.

Yup, we need to work on the basics for sure. Southerngurl, are you talking about bumping him while working on the foot, or in general? I know "the one who moves his feet is the loser" in the horse world and I usually make them back up by a finger in the chest in a very uncomfortable way. So you would wave at their head in a "****"ing way as you approach?


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Personally, I would not get into a shoving match with a horse over hoof handling. If he is anxious or worried about having his feet trimmed, getting into a fight with him may make it worse. I would agree with the "calm and persistent" method; ultimately you want him to hold his feet up for the farrier because it's no big deal to do so, not because you *make* him. Yes, you want your horse to respect your space, etc., etc., but this is a different skill and you just can't force him to relax for the farrier.

(Oh, and I doubt cross ties made the difference.)

Who knows what happened before you got him; my boarder's horse had nail holes in his feet when she tried him up but my farrier cannot believe anyone could have shod him without drugs. Which is what he suspects they probably did, every time, every trim.  He is against drugging horses for regular trims, and feels training & patience win every time.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

I'm confused - is it the same farrier? I once had a horse that was fine with one farrier, but when I called a new one out the horse went nuts and would not let the new guy even approach him. I went back to the original farrier and *POOF* perfect horse again.

I'd get the original guy, the one who said he was okay, out to trim him and see how he does.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Here is a video of what I mean. I used Zip because I figured he would give me some trouble but he really didn't, sorry. He's a jerk when I don't want him to be because he's never worked with lol. 

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/critterlover/?action=view&current=MVI_7416.flv

I'm changing my hands depending on if he's moving or not, so you see some bumping sometimes I'm not. I would have went right to bumping him hard if I had to on the jaw. I also never had to touch his backside at all to disengage the hindquarters, other times I would. I had him move slow and then speed up. He's expected to keep up with me. I don't wait on him. If I was truly doing this as a correction, it would be done with some more hustle. These are good exercises for a horse that is being disrespectful. I wouldn't handle a horse that has no clue about these exercises like this however. 

As far as backing , that is good too, but I personally wouldn't poke with a finger unless the horse is real sensitive to it. Because you want the horse to move with some effort, not just plod slowly backwards. The bumping gives a pressure they can't lean on and ignore. I usually do the wiggle the lead rope then and then bump the rope if they aren't backing up from it good. 

Man I've gotten fat.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I thought my first horse would be very reliable because he'd been used as a lesson horse. And he was, while he was drugged. Afterwards, not so much.
Never trust a horse dealer...no matter how well you think you know him.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

First, you have to readjust your thinking. A 4 year old is NOT a baby.
Follow 'where I want to', good advice. Be patient, move slowly, be aware, be safe.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

Can you make up a small round pen area and work on round penning him? I have found that doing round pen work does a whole lot to encourage their respect. Heck, Joshua sees me holding a halter and he automatically follows me around like a very meek boy. 

I'm just wondering if you need to work at ground work with this boy. Stuff like....when I take the halter off you stay beside me. Horsey doesn't decide when to leave. _You _do.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I thought 4 years was still considered quite young? I was a bit taken aback that they had him jumping 12" already at the school. Well, young or not, he can't get away with these obnoxious behaviors.

Yesterday I went to spend some more time working him (I only work in about 10 minute intervals, hoping to work up to 15 in a small amount of time) and we did lots of walk-ons and whoa/stands. He flipped a major attitude with me one time and that resulted in an IMMEDIATE backing almost completely across the field; I was proud of myself for delivering the "punishment" so to speak without missing a beat, then we just went back on about our business. I am working a lot with him on head down/relax I call it, I know that a horse with his head down is a calm horse. He let me pick his feet up and I held them to the count of 5 this time, only got snotty with one foot, tried to grab it from me, as soon as he stopped I rewarded him by putting the foot back down. I did a lot of directional changes with him while leading him and am pleased to announce he really seemed to be focused on me. I have gone back to square -1 with him and I think we are both benefiting; this si the first time I have felt good enough to actually work with him, I have done it several times this week and he has gotten a tad bit better each time.

My neighbors are putting a round pen in over at their place, I can't wait. I think ALL of my boys could benefit from it.

I'll let you guys know how it goes with the trainer. My farrier (it wasn't the same farrier as the previous owner was using, she lives amost 2 and a half hours from me) is due tomorrow, I wonder if I ought to let the trainer see him in action with the poor farrier, the times are going to overlap.

I agree with all the "slow and steady" advice, seems to be the way to go with him. Thank you all for your thoughts.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

4 years is young, but his ground manners should be solid by now. I'm skeptical about what kind of lesson horse a 4 year old would make, though.

Anyway, I would also ask your farrier's advice. She would know if he was being fearful or just plain bratty. I'm not a fan of continuous backing or endless "disengaging the hindquarters", simply keeping the horse out of your space is usually enough.

You said you were working with his feet previously - just keep doing it. Make daily hoof-picking a routine. I've trimmed thousands and thousands of horses, and really, daily hoof picking trains them better than any particular technique.


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

was he obnoxious or scared?

either way back to basics - firm clear handling daily with expectations broken down into little chunks he can be successful at 

I handle feet as often as possible if there is a problem .. horse sees me and knows feeties are being handled ..


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Sounds like you have already got a handle on it. I liked what you said about an instant reaction to his bad behavior. JMO that speed of reaction is much more important than strength. 
Good luck.
I too find it very odd that a 4yo would have such an extreme reaction to a normal thing like a farrier. Does make me wonder.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Age is irrelevant; a horse that has stood in a field until age 8 isn't necessarily going to have good ground manners, and might never have them if not trained. I would ignore the issue of age and just work on what you see and what you want.

Definitely ask your farrier how to best handle the situation. My farrier loves a project like this; he finds trimming horses with great feet a little boring! So your farrier is a good start for the issues with his feet.

As far as basic ground manners, it's time he learned how to behave. Every horse is different so if he's really obnoxious, then you may have to "get in his face" a little, but if he's just dopey, I'd stick with the calm repetition. 

He's old enough to work for more than a 10 minute session, but it won't hurt by starting small and setting him up for success; let him finish before he (or you) are frustrated and extend the sessions a little at a time.

Good luck!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

offthegrid- in her first post, she stated that this pony had already been used as a lesson horse. Any horse that has already been ridden regularly, is jumping and is 4 yo should have enough manners that they don't freak out at having their feet handled. 
It makes me somewhat suspicious about having pain. So that if her methods for resolving this doesn't work, which I think are good, I would feel that an exam for a problem is a good idea. If this was a 2 yr, I would be more likely to suspect rushed previous training. 
I do get your point about age not effecting the need for good behavior but it is something to be considered when trying to determine what the problem is and what to do.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

where I want to said:


> offthegrid- in her first post, she stated that this pony had already been used as a lesson horse. Any horse that has already been ridden regularly, is jumping and is 4 yo should have enough manners that they don't freak out at having their feet handled.
> It makes me somewhat suspicious about having pain. So that if her methods for resolving this doesn't work, which I think are good, I would feel that an exam for a problem is a good idea. If this was a 2 yr, I would be more likely to suspect rushed previous training.
> I do get your point about age not effecting the need for good behavior but it is something to be considered when trying to determine what the problem is and what to do.


If I knew an instructor who used a four year old as a lesson horse, I wouldn't use him/her as an instructor.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Yeah, I agree he was pretty young to be used as a lesson horse, and to make it worse, she was already jumping him 12". Seemed pretty young for that, too. I guess she must have thought he had a good head, which in all honesty, he does. Except for the feet.

I had a trainer friend of mine come out, she put him through all kinds of changes trying to get him to repeat his behavior when the farrier was here, and he simply didn't. She firmly thinks he had some type of bad experience with the farrier. He knows exactly what we want by asking for his feet, he is just a bit reluctant to give them to us. She thinks slow and steady will win this race for us. She also did note he seems to drop his right hip a bit, and wonders about pain as some of you have mentioned. So once he gets back in the swing, I'll re-introduce the hoof pick and see where that takes us. The farrier at the facility had easily 40 horses to do, I can imagine him losing his patience with the pony.

So I'll just keep doing what I am doing, nice and slow, no rush. He respects space, is a bit lippy but not nippy (I won't tolerate the lippy either), and the trainer described him as confident but not a bully. She also keeps enthusing on how cute he is!


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

where I want to said:


> offthegrid- in her first post, she stated that this pony had already been used as a lesson horse. Any horse that has already been ridden regularly, is jumping and is 4 yo should have enough manners that they don't freak out at having their feet handled.
> It makes me somewhat suspicious about having pain. So that if her methods for resolving this doesn't work, which I think are good, I would feel that an exam for a problem is a good idea. If this was a 2 yr, I would be more likely to suspect rushed previous training.
> I do get your point about age not effecting the need for good behavior but it is something to be considered when trying to determine what the problem is and what to do.


Oh, I agree with you. In *theory* he should have no problems. But the quality of "lessons" and "instruction" could vary, so it is possible the horse is capable of doing some things but severely lacking in other areas. Four is pretty young to be a lesson horse in general.

I should have stated that my thoughts are really assuming there *is* no pain issue. Clearly, if pain is a possibility, then it should be addressed first! It sounded more like a fear of the farrier, which is a whole 'nuther problem!

But I board a horse that sounds very much like this one; he's a "punk" but mostly because he was never expected to behave (as in, no one ever interacted with him). He is not good for the farrier, his ground manners are poor, he's pushy and generally is like a bull in a china shop. He does not respond well to being "bullied"; he gets nervous and reactive. It would be nice if we could open up a can of whoop ass on him and he'd behave, but that approach doesn't seem to work. In a case like this, I just think slow and steady wins the race.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

One of Caroline's ponies would pull an attitude with the farrier till she held him. Then he was fine. Singing lullabies in his ear helps him with everything...even clippers.
Do you have pictures of the pony? I love ponies.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I'll get some as soon as possible. He's a registered chincoteague, 12.2H built like a tank. He has a brush with fame, THE Misty of Chincoteague is in his lineage, his dam's name was Misty something something, I don't recall I'll put it down when I post pics. Pretty little pinto.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I wanted a Chincoteague pony so badly when I was a kid! We went to pony penning day when I was 9. looking forward to pictures...


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

pictures, pictrues, pictures!


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

beccachow said:


> Yeah, I agree he was pretty young to be used as a lesson horse, and to make it worse, she was already jumping him 12". Seemed pretty young for that, too. I guess she must have thought he had a good head, which in all honesty, he does. Except for the feet.


I'd watch out for soundness issues with your young one. I don't understand why people can't wait for those joints to develop before jumping young ones.


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## Countrystyle (Aug 24, 2003)

Several years back we had a farrier that was 6'4" and my mare is only 14hh. She hated having him work on her until I ask him not to raise her stubby little leg so high. She was great after that. Made it a little harder on the farrier but he was a friend and didn't mind. Just thought I'd throw that out there in case the farrier is tall. lol


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Joshie said:


> I'd watch out for soundness issues with your young one. I don't understand why people can't wait for those joints to develop before jumping young ones.


I can't understand it either. The "groupy" trainer that I referred to in an earlier thread sold a friend of mine a "5 year old" clydesdale/TB cross. She'd been jumping him pretty high prior to the sale and after my friend bought the horse, she found out he was actually a year younger than she was told. "Oopsie", said the trainer..."It's that much more time you'll get out of him." Later when my daughter rode him in a clinic with said trainer, she told my daughter,"I jumped this horse PRELIM when he was three, yada, yada, yada." My daughter was horrified. Any horse going that big at 3 and a draft cross on top of it. Unbelievable. Hopefully he'll stay sound but I wouldn;t bet money on it.


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## DixyDoodle (Nov 15, 2005)

Did I miss where you said you put him when his feet are being done? You said something about the farrier chasing him across the field. He really would be better off to be put in a smaller area, so that if he does "get loose", he doesn't have far he can go. Stall, round pen (I see you mentioned getting one), even a horse shelter with a gate across it.

Getting his feet done is a necessary evil, so for the moment, if he is not cooperative, I would tranq him a bit. Just enough to take the edge off. Over time, you could reduce and eventually eliminate the tranq. I mean, a fidgety horse is one thing, but one that goes ballistic and tries to injure the farrier is another.


> My farrier loves a project like this; he finds trimming horses with great feet a little boring!


Most farriers don't like it. If they are a good farrier, it's likely that they are busy and are booked pretty solid. They don't like being made late by a spoiled or unhandled horse. And that means it may cost them clients and money. Some farriers charge more (because of the added time they spend) for trouble horses and some refuse to make a second visit as it is not worth their while....if they get injured, they also lose their paycheck. It's imperative that a horse can be done without a fuss.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

My farrier loves those 'works in progress' too. He charges $75/hr waiting time, $125/hr training time and if one happens to get away and he has to catch it, he simply walks to his truck, digs out his rope and throws the prettiest hoolihan and adds $25 to his bill.


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## DixyDoodle (Nov 15, 2005)

> My farrier loves those 'works in progress' too. He charges $75/hr waiting time, $125/hr training time and if one happens to get away and he has to catch it, he simply walks to his truck, digs out his rope and throws the prettiest hoolihan and adds $25 to his bill.


hahahaha! Works in progress are gooooooood!  You could go to Hawaii on a couple of good clients like that.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

DixyDoodle said:


> Most farriers don't like it. If they are a good farrier, it's likely that they are busy and are booked pretty solid. They don't like being made late by a spoiled or unhandled horse. And that means it may cost them clients and money. Some farriers charge more (because of the added time they spend) for trouble horses and some refuse to make a second visit as it is not worth their while....if they get injured, they also lose their paycheck. It's imperative that a horse can be done without a fuss.


Oh, don't misunderstand me. He likes a challenge, not a bad horse. For example, he also does some pro bono work for local rescues in cases of neglect and really enjoys bringing a horse in poor condition back into soundness. That's the challenge he prefers the most, I believe.

But he is VERY willing to work with an owner to help them get their horse better for trimming. I doubt he would even charge to come out and help an owner do some "practicing" for an hour or so, and knowing him he'd probably call back in a week or two to see how it was going. But of course it's a benefit for him in the long run; if the horse stands for trimming he can get them done much more quickly and safely.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

My farrier is really cool. She actually tucks the lead line in the back of her chaps and sort of holds the horse on her own, and does them right outside the barn. Doesn't seperate them away from each other while being done. At first I was like, "No way is this going to work out..." until I saw her at work. The horses were SOOOOOO relaxed with her, they were not hyper at being taken away, the lead line tucking allowed for freedom of head movement...she definitely turned farrier day from a day I HATED to a good one. Of course I usually hold the guys, but she is just as at ease with them if she does it herself. Until Spanky. We actually tried a few different places to see if he would chill-ax, but he never did. I think he will be much better next time she comes. I'm telling you, doing the horse in the field with all his other friends standing around him (of course I **** off anyone who is getting a little TOO curious) is an amazingly relaxing atmoshpere. I'm sure everyone would have different opinions about it, but I love it. And the horses are really easy to catch this way, they never stray far from their friends. So instead of a horse who has been stalled or tied for a while and has a bit of energy to burn, she just goes to the barn, we call 'em up, and she picks one and does him while his friends stand around and graze. Then the next one...and they don't run off or anything. Pretty wild.


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## DixyDoodle (Nov 15, 2005)

My farrier prefers to do the horses in our small paddock, usually in the horse shelter. There's enough light but out of the wind. The other horses are loose but haltered, and ready to go. Having said that, they are also easy to catch.  I don't think the farrier wants to wait around while people chase horses around in circles. 

Our horses can also hang around while the other horse is being done. I think this allows them to understand that the "funny guy that shows up every 6 weeks" is not cause for excitement, and the other horses do learn that it's ok to relax around him. They really do take cues from each other. So long as they're not being rude, getting too close, stealing his tools, etc. (Our arab mare had to be taught that no, the tool box is NOT a horsie play toy, lol). Usually they will stand close by and doze while he does each horse. 

I agree that catching an unsure horse and dragging him away from his buddies and then letting him loose right away to race across the field to catch up is probably not the right way to do it. Stalling them all with a nice bale of hay and doing them that way, or in another way that is not stressful would be preferable.

(That is to say, not doing them in the stall, but keeping all the horse's buddies within close range for comfort's sake, and doing them in the aisle or in hand somewhere close. Although some horses can be done in a stall, usually the lighting is not as good and is more awkward with larger horses---my farrier likes room to move).


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