# Reducing frame size of cattle



## thestartupman (Jul 25, 2010)

I have cows that are a size 6 frame size. I am wanting to reduce the frame size too a 3-4 in the long term. What is the smallest size bull that I should, or could put with the cows? I am not sure how apart the bull can be in size before he would have troubkle getting the job done. If a person was to AI, how small of a bull could be used, and how much would it effect the off spring? Any help or thoughts would be appreciated.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

FIrst off, I am curious about why you want to reduce them that much? 6 is a pretty nice size. 

That aside, we use yearling bulls all the time, they are usually quite a bit smaller than the cows are, so I would think you could use any bull that would be over 1000 lbs.


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## thestartupman (Jul 25, 2010)

Just wanting to get anaimals that are more efficient at being raised on pasture only. I want to minimize hay needed as much as possible.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

get sheep


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## thestartupman (Jul 25, 2010)

I have thought about adding sheep to the farm to go along with the cattle, but not to replace the cattle. I am still trying to figure out how to work them into the rotational grazing.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

I'm thinking it'd be better in the long run to sell your cattle and buy the type you're interested in. It'll take years of breeding down to create the style you're looking for, and you'll spend lots of time and money to get there.


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## thestartupman (Jul 25, 2010)

I have thought about doing that, but when I was looking for the type of cattle I really wanted when I purchased these, I had a hard time finding any. It seems everyone in my area are into the bigger the better.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Here is a link to a frame score chart and info:
http://animalscience.ag.utk.edu/beef/pdf/FrameScoreinBeefCattle-FDK.pdf
Mature cows are the last table. 

Have you actually measured your cows, or are your eyeballs telling you they are a frame 6? Have they been weighed on a scale? I would take the measurements and be positive of what I had before changing directions drastically.

Sell the cows you have now and buy the kind you want. You can improve some traits and tweak your herd with breeding selection, but for a drastic change like you are talking about, you are better off to start out closer to your goal.


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## thestartupman (Jul 25, 2010)

No, they have not been weighed, but I have tried to get measurements in the field though. That is how I figured they where about a frame size 6. MO Cows, seeing you are from MO, do you have any good ideas on where to find grass based smaller framed cattle?


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

My friend used a Dexter bull over Angus cows to produce Dangus calves. They were about 3/4 the size of the Angus calves that the cows produced before. What was formerly a 600# feeder calf was now a 450# feeder calf. What was formerly a 1200# slaughter steer was now a 900# slaughter calf.

He was able to increase the number of cows to partially make up the difference. The calves brought higher prices in their weight categories, to make up more of the difference. Most importantly, the calves graded higher, putting him over the top.

The beef was so good that he developed a steady repeat customer list. Before long, he was selling all the calves directly at slaughter weight for prices that outweighed livestock market prices.

The little Dexter bull never failed to breed all the cows. Every one of the cows could reach down to him when their time came.

He's gone now and a lot of experimentation has been done to find a replacement, using Devon bulls, mainly. He's not happy, due to the number of difficult births and lost calves. He never lost a Dangus calf or had to pull one.


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## thestartupman (Jul 25, 2010)

genebo, I have thought about the Dexter bull being used, but it is going a little to far on the small side I think. If I ever get into having my animals AI'd, I might try a Dexter on one or two animals.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

thestartupman said:


> No, they have not been weighed, but I have tried to get measurements in the field though. That is how I figured they where about a frame size 6. MO Cows, seeing you are from MO, do you have any good ideas on where to find grass based smaller framed cattle?


Grass based??? They are all grass based aren't they? I don't know anyone who keeps their cattle in a pen and delivers feed to them unless they are in the finishing process. 

IIRC, you haven't been in Missouri very long. Normally, it is very good cattle country (as long as they are fescue tolerant). However, the last half of 2011 was abnormally dry and then 2012 was full blown severe drought. So the likely reason everybody around you has these good size cows is, under *normal* conditions, the land and the climate will support them quite nicely. You seem to have started off under abnormal and adverse conditions.

If you are planning on selling "grass finished" beef, then you might want to look at Lowlines. They can be very pricey but small size and ability to finish on grass pretty much defines their niche in the market.


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## ramiller5675 (Mar 31, 2009)

A small cow is not necessarily more efficient than a large cow, or more suited to a grass-based system.

To my way of thinking, you have to start with a properly proportioned cow (and bull) similar to what is described at: http://www.bovineengineering.com/linear.html

Get good moderately sized bulls that meet the criteria of what you want in your cattle and save the best heifers as replacements. Buying a small bull to downsize your existing cows won't magically give you cattle that are perfectly suited to a grass-based system.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

We are anxiously awaiting the results of putting a lowline (3/4) bull on our three angus(black cows). They calved dec23, jan12 and feb2. The bull turned 1 y/o the end of dec. We still are not 100% sure he has done his duty, but I have not seen any cows cycling recently. Ill try to get pictures to show the difference in size. we love our little lowline bull he is the most mild manored bull I have been around.
Our Angus steer that we finished on grass last year gave us great beef at two years of age. He ate a well rounded diet of weeds, wild flowers,acorns, misquite beans and native grasses. The last couple of months he was allowed to have all the hay he wanted. He fattend up nicely. Well marbled steaks, everybody has raved.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

http://beefproducer.com/blogs-terms-economic-efficiency-size-really-does-matter-3624


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

If a 6'4" lady marries a 5'4" guy, their kids won't all turn out 5"4". They'll be at either extreme, and anywhere in between.

So if you breed big cows to small bulls, you're going to have a wide variation in size, and you'll have to keep selecting for generations to get the ones you want.

In the meantime, getting small calves out of big cows does not make you money. Feeding a big cow all year to produce a small calf is like driving a semi to bring home a bag of groceries.

All of which is why the advice to start with smaller cows is good. Ideally you would have a smaller cow producing a bigger calf, assuming she can calve okay.


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

Been watching this thread and wondering why anyone would want to downsize a breed of cow. If they are a characteristic size for their breed, why downgrade them? Much better in my opinion to simply sell them and get some that are representative of a smaller breed. If I want something the size of a Dexter, why would I start with a charlois?:cowboy:


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

There is a large variation within pretty much every breed. I have both Dexters and RA and there are small and large within each group... telling him to get ones that are representative is kind of difficult, isn't it? 

If you can't find smaller ones, you're pretty much stuck with breeding. I'm in the same boat, almost everyone around here thinks elephants are impressive. Keep the ones you like, butcher/ship the ones you don't!


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

My main thought for having a bull smaller than the cows is ease of calving. Heck Im new to this and as much chance of being wrong as right. But I dont want any issues calving if possible.
That and I really enjoy being around a small docile bull.


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

Alaska said:


> My main thought for having a bull smaller than the cows is ease of calving. Heck Im new to this and as much chance of being wrong as right. But I dont want any issues calving if possible.
> That and I really enjoy being around a small docile bull.


 Not a 100% solution. One of my biggest train wrecks with cattle was some Simmental heifers bred to Angus. The cow has a lot to do with the size of the calf too. Generally a calving ease bull will make a huge difference but not always.


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## copperhead46 (Jan 25, 2008)

I'm with genebo, you can find a good size Dexter bull, black and polled if you want. I sold one a couple of years ago that measured 48 " at the hip. Something like that should work for you, get a smaller frame and lots of beefy qualities, and very efficient on grass.


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## Maria (Apr 24, 2003)

I've got a 3/4 Lowline Angus bull who is 48" at the hip and stays roly poly fat on grass and hay only. We use him to breed our smaller cows, both Pineywoods and Dexter. His calves are always smaller than him, with an occasional micro mini thrown in. Haven't had to pull a calf yet.

We are going to retire him this year, though, because I want to keep one of his sons. Want a 7 year old bull? The current plan is to eat him, but he's got good genes and is registered. I really ought to try to sell him, I guess.....


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## FarmerDavid (Jul 16, 2012)

I heard a very well respected cattleman talk on this subject. He advocated breeding heifers @ 12 months to low birth weight, high wean weight bulls. Claimed by breeding them younger the heifers would never reach their size potential but their offspring should still have the genetic potential for the feedlot. 

It would require the right bull but I can see its potential.


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## ramiller5675 (Mar 31, 2009)

I once had a heifer calve at 18 mo (long story behind that one), and your respected cattleman is correct, it gave me a stunted calf and a stunted heifer. And, I almost lost both of them if I hadn't pulled the calf as soon as I saw the feet.

It wouldn't be quite as bad if your heifers got bred at 12 mo., but I bet you'd be pulling a lot of calves, losing a few heifers, and would have a bunch of awful little calves the first year. 

I've always heard that you can't starve a profit out of a cow, and I doubt if you can stunt a profit out of one either.

If you can't make a profit with some moderate-sized 1100-1200 lb cows, I doubt if you can make a profit by playing games and purposely limiting their growth to make them "more efficient".


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## WJMartin (Nov 2, 2011)

Do some research on what are called Moderators. They are lowline cross for commercial sale, sounds alot like what you are wanting.


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## FarmerDavid (Jul 16, 2012)

I don't think he was referring to the first calf having potential, it would obviously be stunted but the genetic potential of future calves. It'd take a lot of management and I don't know about the long term profitability but its an interesting theory.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

FarmerDavid said:


> I heard a very well respected cattleman talk on this subject. He advocated breeding heifers @ 12 months to low birth weight, high wean weight bulls. Claimed by breeding them younger the heifers would never reach their size potential but their offspring should still have the genetic potential for the feedlot.
> 
> It would require the right bull but I can see its potential.


I would lose all respect for that "well respected" person if they advocated this practice. No matter how carefully you select the genetics there will be outliers and you are intentionally dooming some of those heifers and calves to death, a higher percentage than the norm of calving around 2 years of age and using a calving ease bull for heifers. Plus, to keep up a supply of replacement heifers coming into the herd, you would have to do this every year to at least some of the yearling heifers. It wouldn't be a one-time thing because you constantly need replacements coming in to replace cows who drop out. I would imagine the breed-back rate for the second calf would not be good for those immature heifers, a lot of replacements needed right off the bat.

The "little cow raising a big calf" concept is nothing new. But you don't have to deliberately stunt a cow's growth and unnecessarily kill heifers to make it happen. There are moderate size cattle out there already. If a cow is raising a calf to around 50% of her own weight by weaning, on grazing and/or hay, she is performing very efficiently in her environment.


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## FarmerDavid (Jul 16, 2012)

I've listened to him speak enough and on a variatity of subjects not to lose respect for him. His entire presentation that day was about thinking outside the box. Is 12 really that much difference then 14 when it comes to breeding age and labor issues? I'm not saying that to defend the theory just an honest ?. 

I know one local rancher that will bred younger then 12. His opinion is if shes physically able she's ready. Usually tries to bred heifers on their second cycle. I don't agree with that but he seems to do alright that way.


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

FarmerDavid said:


> I don't think he was referring to the first calf having potential, it would obviously be stunted but the genetic potential of future calves. It'd take a lot of management and I don't know about the long term profitability but its an interesting theory.


Don't think the first calf will be any different genetically. And, don't bet on that heifer having a small calf, doesn't always happen that way. What you have is a small cow who doesn't reach her genetic potential, but will still have calves with hers and the bulls genetics. This can still result in a calf which is much too large for a underdeveloped heifer to deliver. Results are not always good.


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## cedarcreekranch (Nov 24, 2010)

If you want to downsize your cows, my advice is to use a good Lowline bull on your cows. I have a fullblood Lowline bull who breeds both my lowline percentage cows and my tall Limousin/Angus who stands at least a foot taller at the shoulder! An old farmer once told me a bull can 'jump' 12 inches to breed a cow so guess it's true. For more information visit this lowline website page as it'll tell you more. http://www.usa-lowline.org/more.html We love our Lowlines and their beef - we had steaks for supper from one we finished on grass and talk about mouth watering, tender meat! Downsizing your cows frames isn't a bad idea at all, you can raise more beef per acre with smaller, more efficient cows. Key is 'efficient'. Also, breeding a young bull isn't going to get you lighter birthweights - the genetics are the same whether the bull is 1 year old or 10 years old. With lowlines you won't be pulling calves. period.


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## thestartupman (Jul 25, 2010)

Thanks cedarcreekranch, I will check the website out.


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## SteveO (Apr 14, 2009)

I second the lowline. My bull is over a1000# and about 4-3". I was told if the cow is in the mood they will find a way. 8 calves on the ground and no help needed. I am guessing. you would drop a size every year. I think Agmans are a 4.5 to a 5. And with lowline you get to call them Angus
Utopia farm in TN
Steve


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

cedarcreekranch said:


> If you want to downsize your cows, my advice is to use a good Lowline bull on your cows. I have a fullblood Lowline bull who breeds both my lowline percentage cows and my tall Limousin/Angus who stands at least a foot taller at the shoulder! An old farmer once told me a bull can 'jump' 12 inches to breed a cow so guess it's true. For more information visit this lowline website page as it'll tell you more. http://www.usa-lowline.org/more.html We love our Lowlines and their beef - we had steaks for supper from one we finished on grass and talk about mouth watering, tender meat! Downsizing your cows frames isn't a bad idea at all, you can raise more beef per acre with smaller, more efficient cows. Key is 'efficient'. Also, breeding a young bull isn't going to get you lighter birthweights - the genetics are the same whether the bull is 1 year old or 10 years old. With lowlines you won't be pulling calves. period.


 Glad to read your post cedar creek, Im new to this cattle business. We are starting slow. I did a lot of reading and listening. We bought a couple of full size angus(black) cows with calves. Had them bred with a full size angus bull . And bought a 3/4 lowline bull 7mos old last nov..Our three cows calved between Xmas and the superbowl. Im not sure but I think the little guy has them all bred now.


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

You can downsize in one generation with the right bull. We bought an angus bull from a local producer a few years ago to get some smaller cows, we had some beefmaster/angus crossed cows that seemed to be a little big 1300# or so. All of the heifers that we've kept are about a 1000# mama's now. I think its possible to get too small.....1100 to 1200# is about right.
its probably not as important to worry about the size as it is how they are doing . An easy keeper is better than a poor doer at any size.


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## cedarcreekranch (Nov 24, 2010)

So far our Lowlines have been pretty easy keepers - not as easy as our tiny zebus (I think they'd live on just AIR!) but still don't have to grain them during the winter, just feed them good hay. This past winter we tried something I read about in a magazine (I think it was Drover) where you limit the hay feeding. You let them eat free choice for a set amount of time, then turn them out of the feeding pen. With the drought we've had the past couple years (I think it's broken now - probably won't be able to bale it's so wet!) we were short on hay so thought it was worth a try. We brought the cows up at night with 2 round bales in feeders, then turned them back out in the mornings. They stayed looking good, calved nice calves, and went right out onto grass without losing condition. We don't have 'scientific' evidence but we figured we saved quite a bit of hay this way and our cows didn't suffer. I won't claim Lowlines are the only breed to use or the best, I just know what they do for us and people we know, and we are sold on them.


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## Maria (Apr 24, 2003)

Our 3/4 Lowline bull eats three times what any of our Dexter or Pineywoods cows do. Still, he stays fat on mediocre hay alone. I like the breed.


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