# Open sight aiming question



## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

I've been shooting guns for the last 70 years. But I just bought a Red Ryder BB gun to replace a Crosman 760 that was a piece of junk.

I looked at the Red Ryder BB gun user manual and saw the following:










I always hold the front and rear sights like they show . . . but I try to hold the top of the sights at the center of the bulls eye/target---not at the bottom like they show.

Have I been doing it wrong all these years?

It's kind of a moot issue anyway, since I am not very accurate. "On the paper" is typically as good as I can do.


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## Snowfan (Nov 6, 2011)

Maybe the MOA is different on a Red Rider. I agree with you, though. Get out and try it.


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## lostspring (Jun 29, 2007)

NRA_guy said:


> I've been shooting guns for the last 70 years. But I just bought a Red Ryder BB gun to replace a Crosman 760 that was a piece of junk.
> 
> I looked at the Red Ryder BB gun user manual and saw the following:
> 
> ...


The idea is to give you a better sight picture. When aiming at the center of the bull there is no clear aiming point. When aiming at the bottom of the bull you have a cleaner sight picture.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

You can do it either way, but which ever way you chose always do it that way for every firearm you own.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

Thanks. As we know, bullets and BBs rise and then fall in their trajectory. 
So at some distance it will be high. 
Then at just the right distance it's on target. 
Then beyond that it hits low.


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## Big_Al (Dec 21, 2011)

That sight picture is the Army way.
At least the 1968 Army with M14's.
And that's the way I still do it today.


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## HomeCreek (Dec 30, 2021)

You can use any sight picture that you want. As long as you 1 use that same exact sight picture every time. 2 know the trajectory using that sight picture. I have a couple firearms that use that style irons. Like you I have always put them center of the bullseye or whatever my aim point it. But they have a fibre optic front post. So thats easier. With post with no fiber I put a small dab or white paint on the blade and use it over a black bullseye. I generally use irons on most everything but I like post and peep like AR style sights on anything that it will fit onto. Including a deer rifle. I have taken deer etc out to 200 yards using ARs in 6.5 and 450 using post and peep.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

I never could hit anything with a peep sight. I probably didn't know how to use them.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

I have a US military training rifle (Mossberg 44US). It' front sight has four different posts to select from (see photo below). I generally select the peep sight. The rear sight is a peep sight. So, when shooting this rifle, I am actually using two peep sights.

Front sight









Rear sight









My Mossberg 44US


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## Olhomestead (Mar 3, 2021)

I hold on the military style for a pistol. Target on top of the front sight as shown. 
For a rifle I line up in the middle same as you do. And for what it's worth the trajectory for a bb gun can vary quite a bit in my experience.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

we call the one in the red ryder manual 6 o'clock hold or pumpkin on a post it is mainly a target hold , it requires you have the same size target every time , but lets you see the whole bullseye and not guess at half of it.

so if your go from a 4 to a 6 inch bullseye at the same distance you wilt 2 inches low , not neccicarily a red ryder thing but as you get to shooting targets farther out covering half the target becomes more of an issue say you have a 10 inch plate at 300 yards you need to hold top edge , bit how do you do that well when your hiding the whole target.

so you add elevation on your rear sight and hold bottom edge pumpkin on a post / 6 o'clock hold 

lots of service rifles were set up for BSZ battle sight zero that is if you held at the belly button from 0 to 400 yards you would hit between the groin and the neck on a standing man
but that doesn't do much to help you shoot squirrels


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## SplitWoodAcres (2 mo ago)

NRA_guy said:


> I've been shooting guns for the last 70 years. But I just bought a Red Ryder BB gun to replace a Crosman 760 that was a piece of junk.
> 
> I looked at the Red Ryder BB gun user manual and saw the following:
> 
> ...



I do the same as you. I was trained that the impact (for distance sighted in etc) would be right where you described.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

The "your mileage may vary" thing fits this discussion well. So much is user choice and that comes with a lot of variables. Personally, I lean to open sights. Mainly because we are bush or forest hunting. The scope adds weight and gets in my way. A 100 yard shot just doesn't happen and there is no reason to sight anything in for that range. And I'm not that steady anymore and with open sights I have an excuse. Another is elevation. I never get to shoot a consistent elevation. Shooting up a canyon side or down into a draw has always defeated me unless I am REALLY close.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

Thanks all for the feedback. It is an interesting topic.

Re: The 2 peep sights @Cabin Fever: Do you call that setup "peep-peep"?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

I haven't shot anything with Buck Horn Sights in over forty years. Everything from my old Marlin 30-30 saddle gun, to an old Stevens .22 has Peep Sights. I don't take long shots at game animals, so I seldom use a scope. The only scope I have that gets any use is a 2.5 power Scout Scope.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

I like the method Daisy shows and taught kids and grandkids this way.
Put the pumpkin on the post, we always called it.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

NRA_guy said:


> Thanks all for the feedback. It is an interesting topic.
> 
> Re: The 2 peep sights @Cabin Fever: Do you call that setup "peep-peep"?


Peep in a Peep is sometimes what it is called , we have peep front inserts calibrated for 10meter 3 position air rifle shooting the target fits perfect in the peep you balance the sliver of white all around the bull in the front sight insert and you get very good ability to make groups if you can hold still.

there was a larger peep in a peep used on African big game rifles I had used one on a 458 win mag you looked through the rear peep and the fairly larger front peep and you were sighted to impact the center of what you could see because the eye centers things fast in a peep all you had to do was look at what you wanted to hit both eyes open , it was thought to be quite fast for dangerous game hunting while also keeping your peripheral vison better


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

When I was handed a BB gun at 8 or 9 it was lined in by a sadist that had read way too much elmer kieth. Point of impact at porch to clothesline post distance was nothing like what is in your picture. I had to bury the rear sight even with the very base of the front sight and hold the target in the corner of the angle knowing that the top of the blade front sight was going way over the impact point. When I got enough years on me to learn of the pictured six o'clock hold, I was too smart for anybody to tell anything, but since the military did it that way I decided to reprogram my brain to undo the damage at the hands of people who didn't know what a proper military six o'clock hold was.

But the damage was done after a couple years of shooting field mice and dragon flies with a ridiculous sight picture. I taught myself to track a target with the corner of the sight picture if it was moving and so on. Well I switched to the textbook sight in, and got along pretty well, and then tried to do some distance shooting with open sights. At some point I too read about some nut called elmer keith and then I figured out that I had been practicing for long range prescision shooting with open sights when I was 8 and the hold over tricks were absolutely ingrained second nature to me. Sight it in at six o'clock, learn the gun and how to judge distance, and poke how ever much blade you need to up out of your sight picture and you don't really need a scope. Of course I use a scope now but memory of how that front blade works puts a lot of muscle memory into your brain muscles when it comes to working out holds. And of course there are pistols that don't have scopes, and sometimes they might be all you have, and that silly keith stuff can really impress friends and surprise random vermin that thought they were safely out of pistol range. Thanks to a sadistic nutjob that warped a poor kid trying to enjoy his first BB gun.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

Yeah, my mama taught me to shoot a single-shot bolt-action .22 rifle off our front porch (into a dirt bank) when I was 6 years old.

Open sights, of course, and .22 short cartridges. We didn't have a BB gun at that time.

In those days you could buy ammo in our local drug stores and guns in our Western Auto store. Daddy mail ordered his 12-gauge pump shotgun from Sears, and the US Post Office mail carrier delivered it to our house in the country.

Times have changed, huh?


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## blanket (May 28, 2013)

bullets and bb's neither rise above the line of departure, old wives tale


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

I have peep sights on all of my using rifles. My Marlin 336 has a Skinner peep, my Rossi 92 has a Skinner peep, my Ruger Scout Riffle has very nice factory peep sights and my M1A has the peep sights it came with. After shooting peep sights since 75 in Basic Training, I wouldn't have anything else. They are faster and easier to use than any iron sight I have ever tried.

A few years ago I tried my first red dot optic, on my Ruger Scout Rifle. For me it is faster than the peep sights, and just as accurate.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

blanket said:


> bullets and bb's neither rise above the line of departure, old wives tale


just that angle of departure and line of sight are not the same so that the projectile appears to rise , it is just angled up through the line of sight then flls back through it 

we call it near and far zero


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## Bucephalus (Feb 14, 2020)

blanket said:


> bullets and bb's neither rise above the line of departure, old wives tale


They will never rise above it, as they are constantly falling.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

The bullet typically travels upward (because the gun barrel is pointed slightly upward), is pulled downward by gravity, reaches a peak, and then falls downward. It's true that gravity pulls it downward the entire path.

Of course, if you fire a bullet horizontally, it just falls downward continuously once it leaves the barrel. (And you miss your target.)


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

NRA_guy said:


> The bullet typically travels upward (because the gun barrel is pointed slightly upward), is pulled downward by gravity, reaches a peak, and then falls downward. It's true that gravity pulls it downward the entire path.
> 
> Of course, if you fire a bullet horizontally, it just falls downward continuously once it leaves the barrel. (And you miss your target.)
> 
> View attachment 117115


the top diagram puts the top of the bullet arch at the line of sight , it is much more useful to have the top of the bullets arc about 1 1/2 to 2 inches above the line of sight at 100 yards this gives you a greater range before you have to start figuring for hold over , if the top of your arc is line of sight then you alwasy have hold over at any range that isn't your zero.

a 25 meter or 27 yard zero where you fire a round then take aim on that bullet impact and hit that some impact point will make xm193 55gr ball ammo in 5.56nato spot on at 25 meters/27 yards , 6 inches high at 100 yards , 10 inches high at 200 yards 7 inches high at 300 yards and 3 inches low at 400 yards. this is commonly called battle sight zero this works because the M16 has a 2.7 inch high sight over bore where you are hitting is actually 2.7 inches over bore at 27 yards , 8.7 inches over bore at 100 yards and so on.
but we don't care so much about height over bore only height over what you are aiming at.

a typically man is 17 inches wide and about the same from the collar bone to the groin the standard of shooting is 16 inches at 400 yards and the same 16 inch target at closer ranges but faster 
if for everything from the end of the barrel to 400 yards you aim at a mans belly button or just above the belt then you have a hit at every range between and a good sight picture with irons 

when I shoot the AQT - D targets like in your lower diagram , I sight in for cutting bullet holes at 25m and then bottom hold 100,200,300 for V ring hits then hold on the 5 or about even with the shoulders for the 400 yard target. no changing the scope or sight for the range , you get much more time at 400 yards , 200 is 55 seconds with transition and reload for 10 rounds 300 yards is 65 seconds for transition and reload 400 yards no reload no transition 5 minutes


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