# Bulging eyes - cause?



## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

Posted this on another forum a week ago, but got just one reply. Hoping for more input here. Lead suspect is certainly hyperthyroidism.

I've noticed in the last six months or so that one of my goats have gotten bulgy eyes. She wasn't like this before, but she doesn't seem to be getting worse either, it just doesn't look right. It's not horrible, but you can always see the white in her eyes, like she's opening them wide.

She is in her second year, gave birth to a stillborn buckling (late miscarriage?), she and the rest have had lice but are now free and everyone is otherwise healthy. They get good varied diet with free browse, hay and loose/block minerals. 

Her eyes are just bulgy, they stick out more than they should. If she were human I'd say she had hyperthyroidism, but I don't see any other symtpms..
Are there any goat-diseases that cause this or should I have her thyroxine levels tested? Does anyone have experience with this condition in goats?

:shrug:


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## Laverne (May 25, 2008)

My does eyes bulged when she was copper deficient. Very wide eyed and bulged some. It was definitly noticable. Just the one doe. Copper deficiency can cause brain swelling, so I figured that made the eyes bulge. She is much better now. She's been on Copasure about 7 mos. now.


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

Thanks, that's interesting. But why would single animals be deficient when they're all on the same diet? Must be some underlying cause?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Goat genetics vary just like human. One person/goat absorbs vitamins/minerals better than the next person/goat. 

If you breed a Nubian to an Alpine, why can you get kids with different ears? One kid may have airplane ears, and one may have droopy ears.

Same thing.

Also, all your goats may be copper deficient, but not manifest it the same way.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

where are you located?
what do you feed your goats? is there enough iodine in their diet?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

What mineral supplement do you use?


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Feb 17, 2003)

What did you use to get rid of lice?


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I don't know about the eyes...but she sure is a pretty girl! Even with the bulgy eyes


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

This would be a real guess but there is a weed that ties up iodine. Loss of iodine, I think, can cause a problem with the thyroid gland. 
Does she have an enlarged thyroid gland that you can feel?
The weed is called flix weed. And it can cause still births too. It is found in early cutting alfalfa mostly.


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

Thanks, she is a pretty girl indeed. 









She does not feel enlarged or abnormal anywhere. We were thick with weeds, but the goats naturally have changed that, so if there were any flix weed it's gone by now.


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## Laverne (May 25, 2008)

Most goat owners can't get out of copper bolusing Copasure copper oxide rods. Depending on ones area copper can be severely deficient and copper is extremely important for goats. Here is some info if you want to look into it.. http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/board,6.0.html 
Here's a pic of my goat before copper, the small goat in the pic.









And after copper.









A goat can get all bleached out from deficiency.


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

Laverne: I can't access the link, I think it requires membership.

Well, since I'm in Norway I can't get copper boluses, there aren't any around here. It is also illegal to import medicinals without a permit.

But I was thinking, I could grind up the block to a dust and offer them and/or mix the powder into a paste and feed it to them like a bolus. That should work about the same? How much copper can they tolerate before it's too much? I don't want to overdose them.


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## Laverne (May 25, 2008)

Do a web search, type in Dairy Goat Info, I doesn't take a membership unless one wants to make posts like here. 
I don't know if copper oxide would be considered a medicinal since it's just a mineral especially for livestock. Are vitamins considered a medicinal there? 
Jeffers livestock supply has the Copasure, Maybe they would ship to you. 
I have mixed copper glycinate, human capsules from the health food store, into the mineral mix to boost the copper content since I determined mine was too low in it.
Mineral salt blocks don't have enough copper or minerals in them. Any block won't cut it.
Goats need a loose mineral made for livestock.


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

Nope, Jeffers won't ship here.

The point that blocks don't have enough is because they are hard and are designed for licking. If you grind up the block into a powder then it isn't a block, it's loose minerals. 

The blocks I use are designed specifically for goats and contain so much copper that whenever carrying one I must take care to keep it away from clothing and walls because everything turns red.


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## Laverne (May 25, 2008)

Unfortunately a lot of minerals have too much iron and iron is red, it interferes with copper absorption in goats. Copper is on the green side. 
If I was in your situation I'd do what some have done and have a bucket of water with copper pieces in it. Copper will leach into the water. Copper pipe, pots, coins and hope my goats would dose themselves, kinda like putting baking soda out to self medicate.
Do they have a ppm on the mineral block for copper? It's about 2000-2600 ppm here.
Is there a veterinary agriculture school in your country to tell you about copper levels in your area?
Who knows if your goat even has a copper problem, I know my goat improved after copper but that is for my area.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

And she looks perfectly normal to me! Vicki


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

Laverne said:


> Unfortunately a lot of minerals have too much iron and iron is red, it interferes with copper absorption in goats. Copper is on the green side.


The blocks are very rich in copper and the reason they want it so red is so people won't make a mistake and give them to sheep.




> If I was in your situation I'd do what some have done and have a bucket of water with copper pieces in it. Copper will leach into the water. Copper pipe, pots, coins and hope my goats would dose themselves, kinda like putting baking soda out to self medicate.


I don't want to contaminate any water because my other animals would probably drink it too - everyone free ranges inside the fence here.



> Do they have a ppm on the mineral block for copper? It's about 2000-2600 ppm here.


What does that mean? Parts copper per million? The block comes without a label, but I looked it up on the manufacturers page now. Here are the contents, hope I translated correctly.

Copper as copper (II)sulfate 300 mg Cu/kg
Selenium as sodium selenite 30 mg Se/kg
Cobolt 20 mg Co/kg
Zink 120 mg Zn/kg
Manganese 150 mg Mn/kg
Iodine 50 mg I/kg
Iron 840 mg Fe/kg

I see now that they also produce a block with 2000 mg Cu/kg, I'll try to get that next time I'm at the feed store. Maybe they gave me the wrong one. :bash:




Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> And she looks perfectly normal to me! Vicki


I don't have any good pictures to show her eyes, but they are not very prominent. But both me and another person have noticed without talking about it - the vet didn't say anything about it though, but he was busy and I forgot to ask (he was here to help her with retained afterbirth).


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## Laverne (May 25, 2008)

I find this interesting. Here is a quote about myotonic goats and their trait of bulging eyes.

'yes: Many of these goats have eyes that appear to protrude from the socket "bug eyes". It is the structure of the bone that causes the eyes to look this way. The eyes are also wide apart and often more forward than other breeds'.

Look up Moonlight Farm, they have a pic of a bug eyed myotonic goat and mention it is a trait.

Is your doe young and her skull has just grown to make this trait come out in the last few months? Even though she may not be myotonic, maybe she just has that skull formation to make this happen.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Re: copper boluses- the study I saw that convinced me that it was a useful thing was conducted in Sweden. That study mentioned it's use among farmers there. It is just small copper rods and I would think it would not be classified as a medicine.
The weed mentioned is not usually a problem in a pasture but in hay. Since you're in Norway, I assume you feed hay in the winter. 
I have no idea whether there is this weed or something similar in European hay. 
Also, since you are in a place outside of the usual for most of the posters here, you might want to post your location.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Geiss said:


> The blocks are very rich in copper and the reason they want it so red is so people won't make a mistake and give them to sheep.


Actually it's the iron oxide that makes the block red. Iron, in excessive amounts, ties up copper, which is why red minerals aren't usually the best. I read that they used to put the iron oxide in there so they could see when the minerals were well blended. It's really not needed.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Um, why do I have a winking smiley? When I go to edit my message it's not there and it's above a little line???


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

Laverne said:


> Look up Moonlight Farm, they have a pic of a bug eyed myotonic goat and mention it is a trait.


I could only find info on blue eyes, not bug eyes. 
But here I found it:
http://www.mistirosefaintinggoats.com/
I saw it mentioned on other sites as well.



> Is your doe young and her skull has just grown to make this trait come out in the last few months? Even though she may not be myotonic, maybe she just has that skull formation to make this happen.


Yes, that is a definite possibility. She doesn't always look "off" either, and I might be just paranoid. She was born early last spring, and as she has grown into adulthood her eyes have widened.



where I want to said:


> Re: copper boluses- the study I saw that convinced me that it was a useful thing was conducted in Sweden. That study mentioned it's use among farmers there. It is just small copper rods and I would think it would not be classified as a medicine.
> The weed mentioned is not usually a problem in a pasture but in hay. Since you're in Norway, I assume you feed hay in the winter.
> I have no idea whether there is this weed or something similar in European hay.
> Also, since you are in a place outside of the usual for most of the posters here, you might want to post your location.


What studies of farming show doesn't necessarily compare to my goat keeping, seeing as I don't milk or slaughter them, nor do I keep a big herd or confine them, and my soil has been untouched for years on end. Deficiencies in norwegian mountain soil or commercial pens is no surprise. And by the way, Norway and Sweden are very different when you talk about soil - Norway is mostly coastal rock land.

But I digress.



southerngurl said:


> Actually it's the iron oxide that makes the block red. Iron, in excessive amounts, ties up copper, which is why red minerals aren't usually the best. I read that they used to put the iron oxide in there so they could see when the minerals were well blended. It's really not needed.


That's just what I was told.. Anyway, I don't think it is to see the blending, because all their blocks come in different colors.



So.. Maybe she's copper deficient, maybe she's got a thyroid condition or maybe she's just bug-eyed. :ashamed:


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

Hey, I found a picture of a goat who looks just like my Fauna! It could seriously be her, black spots and all (what are those anyway? Both my white adult does are getting them - bug bites?)

Picture found on google:









That's what she looks like at her worst.


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## mpete (Mar 4, 2008)

I give my goats a chewable childrens vitamin


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## pourfolkes (Jul 1, 2005)

And the children's vitamin gives them enough copper? How often do you give them?


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

Some bloodlines have bulgy eyes. That's all.


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

Some white goats have black spots on their skin. That's all.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

If it's available, you could try using copper sulfate powder (we use it here to make Bordeaux mixture to spray our orchard trees).

I do believe there's a thread here re: dosage for the copper sulfate powder. Ah, yes, here it is:
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=166090&


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

since you are in norway, you might want to contact your vet or agriculture person and ask if you are in a copper deficient area. i hear about more and more cases of dead goats because of copper poisoning.
copper is not the cure for just all and can go very wrong if overdosed. 

bulgy eyes are definitely not a sign of copper deficiency.


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

susanne said:


> since you are in norway, you might want to contact your vet or agriculture person and ask if you are in a copper deficient area. i hear about more and more cases of dead goats because of copper poisoning.
> copper is not the cure for just all and can go very wrong if overdosed.
> 
> bulgy eyes are definitely not a sign of copper deficiency.


I worry about overdosing too. And I don't know how copper would impact the eyes. But do you people think? Does the goat in the last picture look sick or "wrong" to you at all?


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

no, for me she looks normal. what kind of goat is she? are you milking her?


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

She's most likely half dwarf and half cashmere (which as you know can be anything). Her parents were both colored, as was her twin brother. The buckling she miscarried was all white after a colored sire. White is interesting stuff, seems difficult to "get rid of" once it pops up.

I am not milking her as I just keep them as pets (meaning they get a good goat life and I get to have them in my life) and don't really have a use for milk. I milked her a little to relieve her udder when she kidded/miscarried, the udder has gone down to to very little now.

Her buddies are another doe like her (same breeds, a bit smaller and eyes are not protruding) from a different place and a 75% dwarf doe. Both the other does each have a month old kid.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

if you are worry that she might not be normal ( miscarriage could also happen if a doe is iodine deficient) your vet might be able to draw blood and have a mineral/vitamin analysis done.


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