# Poll taken about men and women having solo meetings, dinners, conferences, ect



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Showed that most men 65 and older, most Republicans, most people very religious, most independents, and a few others say that they avoid having one on one meetings with a member of the other sex. 
They say this is unfair to women as, as yet, men still run most things, and if they are afraid to have one on one meetings with women, then advancement that might be given to them are given to other men.
I guess women are going to have to wear more sexy clothes with higher heels to cause men not to think such prudish ideas LOL.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

That's the nature of the beast. A man is almost forced into that behavior. If a woman claims he said or did anything untoward, he loses.

I had an female employee threaten to sue me over something I said, which she misinterpreted. I saw an attorney who told me to settle because the courts usually side with the woman. He said I had done nothing wrong, but especially if it went to a jury, I would probably lose. Her word against mine. No witnesses.

I told him I would lose the business before I would admit to something I didn't do.

I told a woman friend, who did some part-time work for me, about it and she just laughed. She said all you have done for that woman and she does that to you. Any other boss would have fired her a year ago.

It really destroyed a lot of the pleasure of running my own business. I stopped going to lunch with any employees or going out for drinks after work.


----------



## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

When one person can accuse another without any Genuine, Credible, Verifiable evidence whatsoever, just their "word" and especially when something can crawl out of the Historical Woodwork which is completely un-defendable, the repercussions should be obvious. These are Consequences of how the legal system has twisted itself into something that is incapable of actual justice... Let alone the Social Media Justice Warriors who convict on assumptions based on incomplete & often flawed information, enflamed with emotional rhetoric... 

CASE IN POINT... A former neighbour's daughter (aged 13) bragged how they (mom & daughter) "Destroyed a Teacher" by making allegation that he touched her inappropriately BECAUSE he failed her for non-attendance & disrupting class when she was in attendance. He was immediately suspended and his life almost instantly ruined and after the Investigation even proved his absolute innocence his career of 25 years was still trashed and his family life left in shambles. The daughter did eventually admit is was all BULL but too late and the consequences the Mom & Daughter got - was a "Warning", which they laughed about - it was all such a Big Joke to them !

Many similar cases have occurred repeatedly over time as well as how many Husbands in bad divorced have been falsely accused & abused by the Justice System.... Eventually it adds up and men see it, the younger ones don't get it till their own life experience with friends & associates eventually learn to hesitate when approaching a Potential Black Widow !

OF course the more Emotionally charged will HATE my post BUT it is a dose of reality, understand the long term consequences of actions which have put the Justice System in such a position and has made older & generally wiser (due to experiences) men cautious if not hesitant overall. Who wants to juggle Hand Grenades with the pins pulled ?


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

I wonder why it's mostly old and old-fashioned people who seem to have this problem? It's not like any young people or, frankly, anyone I know would be nervous having a meeting with someone of the opposite sex one on one. The only time I hear about these stories are from strangers on the internet. Mostly old guys.
If you need proof against lying employees it's easy enough to have a small camera in the boss's office. Cameras are cheap. Yet it seems like an awful lotta people object to that very fervently....
I wonder why it's mostly old conservative men with old fashioned ideas that seem to have these stories about false accusations and how much wimmins lie about it.... Hmm... Sounds like maybe those people would be great candidates for Bill Cosby's classes.


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Yup, its guys like him that have caused this, and have brought it upon their individual selves.
Why just old men? Probably cause young guys cant believe that a good looking handsome stud like themselves would overly object to a little hanky panky. AND likely the young girls don't as they realize that giving a little, er, hanky panky will give them some business advantage. Its when those young men finally have some real clout up near the end of the ladder, and they think they still have their good looks and continue to do the same things they did 20+yrs ago, that the young women get tired of it, and only see one thing in them. $$$$$. Its possible that if the older men had did these things with older women nothing much would have happened. BUT, when the young women are angleing for the young men, they don't need old geezers floating around bothering them, soooooooooo, quickest way to get them out of the pond is to sink them with a $$$$ suit.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

For someone who is supposedly in the dating game, looking for a woman to spend your life with, you sure do dedicate a lot of your time to complaining about how awful, deceitful, money-grubbing, etc. they all are. And you sure are also happy when other people share those convictions about how bad women are.

Also, I said old and old-fashioned. Don't have to be old to be old-fashioned. For example, expecting all women to be deceitful is old fashioned.

But hey, I'm sure you got lotsa respect for ladies, right? You SURE you don't expect 'em to makin you sandwiches?


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

IF I Expected anny them to make me sandwiches for the last 29yrs, Ida starved to death a long time ago.
I guess you missed the part where I said B Cosby was getting what he deserved. OR that older men who had moved up the corporate ladder still expected to play like they did 20yrs previous, and with the same age women.
But with your narrow view, you only see the worst in people it seems,


----------



## JerryJimmy (Apr 18, 2017)

Well, ChocolateMouse, I imagine these things happen to us 'old fashioned' folks because our personalities and world views are so different. The younger generations keep getting farther and farther from what we would prefer and what we agree with. Now, there are good, respectable people out there; Men like Bill here. I can't say your doing the place any favors by opposing him.
Goodness, is it so bad for a man like Bill to have a preference any more? I'd say it's perfectly understandable for anyone to prefer someone that wouldn't have a lawsuit against them for being 'old fashioned'. Because, as you said, I wonder why it only happens to 'old fashioned' men?
Likelihood is these 'victims' have been 'sexually assaulted' by someone before; Only the type of men who deserve to be punished for it don't stay around long enough for you to learn their names. Chew on that.


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

hmmmmmmmmmm Id be lerry Jerry. I think she has enough venom for 2 LOL


----------



## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

FarmboyBill said:


> Showed that most men 65 and older, most Republicans, most people very religious, most independents, and a few others say that they avoid having one on one meetings with a member of the other sex.
> They say this is unfair to women as, as yet, men still run most things, and if they are afraid to have one on one meetings with women, then advancement that might be given to them are given to other men.
> I guess ------- higher ------prudish ideas LOL.


I'd kinda like a one on one meating to ALWAYS be with the opposite sex. Or, the one even more oppositer than that one. As my native American name expresses......Sosiouxme. I'm over 65. And independent as all get out. I may even be a few others. Depends on which others.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Farmboybill, you musta missed the part where Cosby got off scott free. He's now holding seminars about how not to get charged with sexual assault. Lotsa guys crawling outta the woodwork to defend him, saying that women are deceitful. Are you suggesting that Cosby deserves his acquittal and continued support?
In fact, he's HARDLY the only person in public right now with sexual assault/harassment accusations, some with confessions or evidence caught on tape who is currently raking in cash and living in the limelight. MANY people are. Some even making it to very prominent positions in society. How exactly is it career ruining exactly?

FBB, you say I only see the worst in people. I think I see exactly what people show me. You have spoken repeatedly about how women are deceitful and lie etc.
If you are not sexist, and you actually have respect and consideration towards women, why do you continue to post about how women are manipulative? Why do you continue to support and seek support from people who think women are deceitful? What is your goal by posting positively about sexist behavior? Can you show me the ways you're NOT behaving poorly? Because I can show you the ways you ARE and explain exactly how that effects the women around you negatively.
If you respect women so much and I explain (and can often back up with citation) how a certain behavior you exhibit effects women negatively, will you stop behaving that way?

Jerry, you're SO right. Women really don't feel any need to act the way you prefer in the slightest. I'm very sorry for you. It must be hard considering someone who thinks half of the population is deceitful as respectable. I can't say you're doing the place any favors by supporting him. Farming/homesteading is already unpopular for it's lack of respect towards women, minorities, etc. There's more than one reason kids don't want to be farmers these days.

Since we're talking about sexual assault statistics;
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/perpetrators-sexual-violence
http://www.sarsonline.org/resources-stats/reports-laws-statics
https://www.rapevictimadvocates.org/what-you-need-to-know/myths-and-facts/

The likelihood is actually that they know exactly who assaulted them as 50%-70% of victims knew their assailant. The reality is that the rates of falsely reporting rape are within the exact same ranges as falsely reporting any other felony. Also, by treating women's sexual assault accusations as inherently deceitful, it leads to less reporting and more acquittals. These are studied, documented facts. Are you willing to chew on the fact that by supporting people who actively label women as deceitful you're actually discouraging women from seeking justice from sexual assault? If you don't think you're contributing to that, what makes you think that you aren't?


----------



## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Living in a small community defense is often the best option for the man and woman both in such situations. The gossips imagination and inability to keep story's straight can be dangerous to ones reputation.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Then if you feel nervous about meeting with women one-on-one, just stick a camera in the office and make the meeting tapes company records. They're not very expensive, it's like a $250 one-time investment. Then everyone wins. If a recording goes "missing" then it makes the company look very suspect indeed, so it behooves them to keep good records. Problem solved.

Leads to clear-cut happy endings like this;
http://time.com/4635835/christopher-von-keyserling-sexual-assault/

So I wonder how many people would be OK with camera in their offices.  No more getting away with their "playful gestures"!


----------



## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

I don't know how anyone can get into trouble....these days....No one put their cell phone down long enough.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Folks, according to the archaeologists, people have been fighting the war of the sexes for a few thousand years, now. Mostly the complaints- on both sides of the gender war- tend to have a basis in fact. No, not all men and women (or even MOST men and women) are jerks, but there are plenty of jerks on both sides. And it is always the jerks that get noticed.

That being said, to the best of my knowledge, nobody *HERE* at ST has assaulted anybody or defended anybody who has assaulted anybody. And, to the best of my knowledge, there are also no gold diggers *HERE*, either, and nobody is defending them. Nobody here is defending people who are jerks.

I expect people to keep this in mind as they post. Because NONE of us, male or female, are responsible for the actions of people we have never even met. So, please remember the old HT requirement: BE NICE!


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I didnt know Cosby had got off. He shouldn't have, BUT I imagine that his lawyers and their lawyers met at a price satisfying to both and that ended that.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

FBB, Cosby did not settle out of court. The women did not get paid and did not get justice. There was no agreement or payments made. He admitted to raping and then walked because the court didn't believe that she didn't want sex with him after he drugged her. The end. I've read the interviews from the jurors. Would you like to see them?

The problem here (and in Cosby's case) is that women are generally viewed with extreme skepticism and even aggression when faced with reporting harassment and rape (among other things). He admitted to having had sex with her while she was drugged and wasn't convicted. The court didn't believe she didn't want sex even though she was legally incapable of consenting.
Only 1/3rd of all rapes are ever even reported. Of those people, nearly half thought that it wasn't something that police should/could handle, either because they thought it wasn't an offense that they should report, or because they thought that the police wouldn't/couldn't protect them. In general, many people don't take it seriously or think that other people won't take them seriously. _(https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system)_
The assumption that people make accusations just to try to hurt others is false too. People are just as honest about sexual harassment as they are about any other serious crime (as I cited above). Yet the conviction rate for rape has dropped from about 450/1900(1985) cases to about 1000/14500(2011) cases. The claim is that this is about a lack of evidence (as in, it's usually he-said she-said) but that doesn't explain why (despite advancements in technology) we have a lower conviction rate. We also have tons of evidence that goes unused and even gets destroyed without testing;
http://www.endthebacklog.org/backlog/where-backlog-exists-and-whats-happening-end-it

And THEN after all is said and done, the average rapist spends less than 6 years behind bars for their crime;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_rape
In case you're wondering, that's comparable to first-time offense for growing or selling 1lb of marijuana (which nets you 3-15 years, with an average of 5).
https://www.aclu.org/other/marijuana-arrests-punishments

Sexual harassment of women is a HUGE problem. It's VERY counter-productive to seeing rapists and harassers put behind bars to imply that people who make accusations are doing it for money or kicks, etc. Given that many rapists and harassers are repeat offender, every report counts.
And this idea that women spin falsehoods for their own benefit is perpetuated in other areas of society as well. It's done SO much that medicine even has a name for it; Yentl syndrome, based on a study done that showed women's heart attacks looked different than mens and so they are often ignored or dismissed as women falsely reporting problems. The reality is that women receive worse treatment in hospitals, workplaces, and courts. I've experienced this myself. People are happy to listen to my decade of experience in rabbit keeping etc... Right until they find out that I'm female. Then everything I say must be double checked with a "buddy" (ie, a male). It's why I don't even bother making a claim without providing citation.

Fear of false accusations is one based EXCLUSIVELY on paranoia and sexism. You are literally no more likely to be accused of that falsely than other felonies, yet men don't fear being accused of tax evasion by disgruntled employees, they don't fear being accused of kidnapping if they see a male colleague one-on-one then he goes missing, they don't fear being accused of arson if a neighbor's house burns down... Yet these are all JUST as likely as being falsely accused of molestation.

There's no reason to deny one-on-one meetings with women unless you have some deeply misguided feelings about women.
We are responsible for how our actions effect the world. Reinforcing the idea that women should not be taken seriously or that they are manipulative or that treating them as such is reasonable is an awful thing to do.

FBB, if you respect women, don't do it. It's that simple. There's documented, undeniable proof that sexism still exists in these forms. If you respect and care for women, don't advocate for it, don't perpetuate it, and when you see it say that it's wrong and point out the factual proof that it is. Don't just post negative implications about women and try to claim you meant no harm. It's been caused, whether you meant it or not.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Yes, sexual harassment and sexism is very ugly indeed.


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I have trouble, with the word RESPECT, when it comes to people. Especially, with my history with them, women. BUTT< I don't respect men either. I just put up with, and tolerate them all. I trust men a bit more, as I know somewhat how and what they think. Women blindside me everytime. If one dosnt have a handle on how the other side thinks, then one shouldn't trust them, AND, having said that, I guess that's why were where we all are at today.
BUTT
Ive heard several women say they know just how and what men think. I don't think ive EVER heard a man say that about women,


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

FBB, that sounds unhealthy and maybe actually sounds like you see the worst in people instead? It might genuinely do you some good to see someone to help you see a brighter world.
I know lots of guys who understand women. The only guys who act otherwise tend to be (shock) old timey and old people. None of my young or modern friends treat women very different than they treat men. We're not complicated. We actually want much the same things you do and handle tasks much the same way. We're not some mysterious mythical beasts. Don't grab our butts, don't admire our boobs unless you also like to admire man-nips with equal reverence, do your share of the housework, pay us the same and give our thoughts the exact same weight you would give a mans, don't do things for us "because we are women", don't expect things from us "because we are women". Just ask. Communicate. I know the world's still in a transition to equality but it's not THAT hard. We can _always_ do better.
But absolutely do not under any circumstances just treat all women as *insert negative trait here*, or make blanket assumptions like that, especially when there's no evidence to back it up.


----------



## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

FarmboyBill said:


> Ive heard several women say they know just how and what men think. I don't think ive EVER heard a man say that about women,


 LMAO and so true....


----------



## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

ChocolateMouse said:


> ..................We're not complicated. We actually want much the same things you do and handle tasks much the same way. We're not some mysterious mythical beasts. Don't grab our butts, don't admire our boobs unless you also like to admire man-nips with equal reverence, do your share of the housework, pay us the same and give our thoughts the exact same weight you would give a mans, don't do things for us "because we are women", don't expect things from us "because we are women". Just ask. Communicate. ...................


Yep.
After a long day, working hard in the hot sun, all I want is a couple of cold beers and some organic medical miracle. Of course, like the song says, "You can't always get what you want" I sure as heck don't want some old, ugly, snaggle-toothed woman(cause that's what I am, except a man) grabbing my butt and saying something dumb, like "Hubba hubba"

I understand fully exactly what you're saying here.


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I have lived long enough to see that most people will have there guard up around strangers regardless of sex. I do also. I expect the worst in people, and im seldom disappointed.
You may not have noticed, but I have several friends in here. There friends cause they don't really know me, they don't live near me, they cant get/take anything from me, and they don't expect anything from me. These, in here, I have a lot of respect for, cause ive known some of them a long time. They treat me fine, and so I try to do the same. Dosnt matter what sex they are. Ive been givin gifts from a couple of them I don't deserve, and I sure respect them for thinking I DO desirve them, even if I don't.
I put on the uniform 3 times for the privilege to be able to think whatever I want, about whoever I want. I don't have the right or privilege to hurt people physically or with words. Beyond that, How I see people, my thoughts about them, my expectations OF them, is MY business.
I also helped to make sure that you were givin the same liberties, which, on this day, the 4th, we celebrate.


----------



## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Well the CENSORS have hit this thread and deleted posts for words they chose to take as offensive when not... PC yourselves to death already !

Too bad there is no DELETE Account on the profile page... Enjoy your PC censorship.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Steve, you're right. I am not permitted to mention certain prominent figures who have sexual assault/harassment/rape accusations leveled at them and even have taped admittance of parts of it (yet still maintain their careers) because of it.
Of course, in most places posts like the opening ones of this thread would result in those posts being removed for their damaging nature as well.

FBB, unfortunately I know VERY few people who have put on a uniform to protect my rights. I'm poly, bi, pagan, female, my best friend is ace, many of my friends are queer, POC, trans, etc. Many of these people are still fighting for basic human rights... Equal taxation, equal property rights, equal inheritance, equal pay, the right to not be fired for their personal choices, parental rights, bathroom rights, equal gun rights, equal protection under the law, the right to even live with your partners in your own home that you bought and paid for...
Not a lot of folks standing up for our rights who wear those uniforms, unfortunately. Many would rather see them all just disappear, unfortunately, some even actively work towards those goals. If you're one who would rather see their rights enshrined in law, and take actions/cast votes to see our rights preserved, thank you. Somehow I just don't get that vibe from you though....

You say "I don't have the right or privilege to hurt people physically or with words". But when you make broad statements about women you do exactly that. You also basically support the beliefs of people who think women exaggerate claims or are manipulative. If absolutely nothing else, the prominence of those beliefs leads to a documented effect of women not receiving life-saving healthcare. Why would you perpetuate or encourage a harmful myth? Isn't that harming someone else through your words?

Words have broad impacts, even dumb offhand comments online. It was literally a short twitter post that spawned the rumor the protesters were being bussed in from place to place to inflate numbers in TX last year;
http://www.snopes.com/anti-trump-protesters-bused-into-austin/
Someone took pictures of busses heading to a conference that happened to be on the same day as the protest and it exploded into a wave of "proof" about protesters bussing in from out of state. They were actually for a 11,000-person conference on the same day. The person who made the initial post even admitted he was wrong but the damage was done and now everyone thinks that any line of busses on the same day as a protest are just bussed in protesters.

Your words have broad impacts, even if they are offhand comments. They lift up people who would treat women poorly and add to the the voices that suggest women are lesser. It's even possible that your words could be the tipping point for someone in a bad way. That is damaging behavior. If you genuinely believe you don't have the right to hurt people with your words... Then stop doing so?


----------



## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Unfortunately some people do not comprehend one simple fact that even while we are communicating in the English Language, it has a lot of flexibility in it... One such example is Cigarettes and the numerous slag term used for those Cancer Sticks... While in England if you asked to get a "Stiffy" from a bloke, you might get punched out but not in South Africa but never ask for a *** in South Africa because you won't get a cigarette, while in the States a BUTT is acceptable, but not a *** or Stiffy eh.... 

IF something so simple offends, then shove the whole thread into the Dark Rooms or wipe it altogether... 

Yet one simple non-obscene or neutral & commonly used word can get an entire post wiped because of some closed minded fool with bone to pick for god only knows what reason... Well, we (most people) are starting to see that Social Media has become one of the worst Social Diseases to have ever descended on humankind.

PS: Ever notice it takes a lot to tick off a Canuck but by the time have managed to do so, your treading in deep waters.


----------



## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

I learned long ago how to say what I wanted to say, and still work within the rules. I once got points for very politely calling somebody on the rug and whipping them real good, til they broke bad and made a fool of themself. The excuse for giving me points? "You knew that he couldn't understand what you were saying exactly, but he also knew he'd been badly insulted" 

Stay within the rules, they can edit your words if they cross the line, but can't edit your thoughts. I'm sure you guys are intelligent enough to figure how to work the system to your advantage. It's a pain, but if you're gonna post at HT, you'll just have to deal with it.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Yes, communication is delicate. It takes a lot of care to speak without offense, but it's possible. Intent only carries so far. If it's our intention to not offend, we are capable of thinking less about our intentions and more about how other people will perceive it.

If you need a flashlight, and you ask for a torch because you're Brittish, your intention is to receive an electronic light stick... You might get a piece of wood with fire handed back to you. You asked for something that means multiple things. The response is "I'm sorry. I mean an electric torch, a flashlight, not a stick with fire". They say "I'm sorry I misinterpreted, here's what you actually needed."

So if you wanna talk about women or whatever, think about how the woman will think of it. If you refer to a grown-ass-woman as a girl, she's prolly gonna be like "Excuse me? I'm an adult.", for example. So just use the more clear option. If you do something unclear, apologize, clarify, and try to be more clear every time in the future.

We are smart, capable people, with the ability to overcome predjudices, fix bad habits, and work toward treating people better. If we really want it, if we value it and take our language seriously, it can be done. Even if we make mistakes, we can apologize for them and work to never make them again.
If we don't value it, we just have to accept that we're gonna piss off whole swathes of people and look like a jerk. And that might not be too far from the truth, since we don't want to put forth effort to not hurt people or take responsibility for the fact that our actions do hurt people.

It's our choice. I have chosen to take language seriously.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

ChocolateMouse said:


> FBB, unfortunately I know VERY few people who have put on a uniform to protect my rights. I'm poly, bi, pagan, female, my best friend is ace, many of my friends are queer, POC, trans, etc. Many of these people are still fighting for basic human rights... Equal taxation, equal property rights, equal inheritance, equal pay, the right to not be fired for their personal choices, parental rights, bathroom rights, equal gun rights, equal protection under the law, the right to even live with your partners in your own home that you bought and paid for...
> Not a lot of folks standing up for our rights who wear those uniforms, unfortunately. Many would rather see them all just disappear, unfortunately, some even actively work towards those goals. If you're one who would rather see their rights enshrined in law, and take actions/cast votes to see our rights preserved, thank you. Somehow I just don't get that vibe from you though..


People who join the military are as diverse as the rest of us. You might be surprised at peoples motivations: you never know unless you ask them. Never assume. And one of our most cherished freedoms is the right of choice.

I respect the people who have served in the military: it is a hard job and they volunteered for it. It is not a job that I could do.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

"People who join the military are as diverse as the rest of us."
Oh?
The US military was only fully open to women as of last year. Only about 16% of all US military is female (and 1/4 of them have been sexually assaulted while in the military). LGBTQ were not permitted in the military until 2011. Of people who believed in a faith (which was 75% of all military), 82% were christian. That sounds _pretty_ homogeneous to me.
It's only in the last decade that many of the people I know (including me) would have been allowed in the military or even specific parts of it.
Though, I will admit that they have done a good job including POC in the military.
http://secular.org/files/mldc-ripsdemographics_0.pdf
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-military-demographics-2014-8?op=1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_military_by_country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation_and_military_service
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault_in_the_United_States_military

Somehow I feel when the US is 51% female and 4% LGBTQ that the military being 16% female and nearly 0% LGBTQ specifically means that it isn't as diverse as the rest of us? Am I wrong?


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Somehow I feel when the US is 51% female and 4% LGBTQ that the military being 16% female and nearly 0% LGBTQ specifically means that it isn't as diverse as the rest of us? Am I wrong?


Yup.

Whether or not a person decides to remain in the closet is a decision that only they can make.

As for women in the military, I believe that the ranks of the military are being integrated about as quickly as the nursing staffs of the local hospitals. There are a lot of pioneers out there, and I respect them, too.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Decisions are influenced by others. If someone points a gun to your head and says give me your wallet, is it your "decision" to give them your money? Many people stay in the closet because they fear the threat of death. Homicide rates for trans people is through the roof. LGBTQ communities are targets of more hate crimes than any other group in the US. That's _hardly_ a choice.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/16/us/hate-crimes-against-lgbt.html

Conveniently, the nursing issue is solved the same way as the military issue. Nursing as seen as inherently female, therefore it's not masculine to be a nurse. Not masculine = bad. Get rid of the stigma that female or feminine are somehow negative traits and you fix both problems. Doesn't go away unless people stop acting like women are different or worse.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Decisions are influenced by others. If someone points a gun to your head and says give me your wallet, is it your "decision" to give them your money? Many people stay in the closet because they fear the threat of death. Homicide rates for trans people is through the roof. LGBTQ communities are targets of more hate crimes than any other group in the US. That's _hardly_ a choice.
> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/16/us/hate-crimes-against-lgbt.html
> 
> Conveniently, the nursing issue is solved the same way as the military issue. Nursing as seen as inherently female, therefore it's not masculine to be a nurse. Not masculine = bad. Get rid of the stigma that female or feminine are somehow negative traits and you fix both problems. Doesn't go away unless people stop acting like women are different or worse.


That does not change the fact that there are a lot of gays in the military.

I have seen so much change in my lifetime. Cultures change slowly but they do change. You might not remember the days when a topic of discussion was whether or not a man should allow his wife to drive, but I do. And those folk discussing the topic were serious. 

I respect the people who figured out how to bring changes about. And, I respect the service men and women who fight to preserve our "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", even if they might not agree with every decision that I make they still fought "to give that right to me", as the song says.

And, since it is the fifth of July, a belated "Thank you" to all of you who have served.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Can you show me... Proof? Owait. Here, let em provide it for you;
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Gates-GLBmilitaryUpdate-May-20101.pdf
https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/what-percentage-of-americans-have-served-in-the-military/
The number is a whopping 2%. And they still face extraordinary violence and no support from the courts. My bad. 

Changes don't come from being quiet, thanking organizations who don't support you, or thinking it OK that people treat you as lesser. I also respect people who figured out how to bring about change. Accepting attitudes like FBBs isn't part of the equation.

I will thank the veterans who I know DO support me and people like me. Otherwise, they weren't actually fighting for "me" at all.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

My generation made a 3 pronged approach to change: 1. Scream, yell demonstrate 2. Vote and 3. Hit 'em in the pocket book.

Of the 3, hitting them in the pocket book was the most effective, though voting worked out well also.

The problem, of course, is that it takes a LOT of people to affect things either by voting or by supporting one business while starving another. I saw it happen, but it took years.

A lot of things worth doing takes years. Cultures change, and we can help that along, but cultures do not change very quickly.

You understand, I am straight. I was born straight and I will always be straight. That's just me. While some people will disagree, I assume gay people are born gay, just as I was born straight. And, when I work along side of somebody I am more concerned with whether or not they do a good job than who they date.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

I do understand that you are straight. Incidentally, fwiw, poly people also tend to be born poly. Being vocal and demonstrating has it's place too. Culture may be slow but people CAN change, and quickly. And every time we engage someone one-on-one to let them know exactly how their choices have hurt others we can push that envelope forward a tiny bit further... If they're willing to listen.

I _could_ simply accept that it takes years and by that point many of the people who disagree vehemently will be dead anyhow. But I don't see people as their potential lifespan. FBB is here and influencing the world (negatively for women) now. Telling someone it won't matter because they'll be dead ten years from now doesn't treat them like a person or acknowledge the effects they're having now.

FBB is a person who treats women under the blanket concept of manipulative then drags out his military service to defend himself as if that negates his negative actions (as opposed to just dragging the military though the dirt and making them look worse, which is the reality). Life isn't a game where you try to get the highest goodness score and good deeds give you points to spare. FBB's choices contribute to negative consequences for women. And I will call it out for what it is.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Doing "good deeds" is NEVER a game.

And FBB is not a threat to you or womankind. For many different reasons.

There is no law that says you must agree with me, though.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Indeed, and I don't.
Honestly, I'd be shocked to hear FBB interacts with many women (or people) at all to be honest! XD His posts lead me to believe he must be a bit of a hermit. I could be wrong, though.
In any case... On his own, FBB is harmless. In a group, with other people swarming around him expressing the same thing? It's very damaging indeed. It only takes that one person proclaiming the wickedness of women to draw people out of the woodwork to agree with him and escalate it further (as seen here), and make some woman reading it think they're not good enough just for having been born with lady bits. I will always strive to be a voice to counter that when I see it.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

People tend to believe as they wish, and just because they talk about it more or talk about it less does not change their beliefs.

And, deeds tend to speak louder than words. Now that women are more active in the various professions, few people give it a second thought. But, when I was growing up there was a lot of discussion about whether or not a man should ALLOW his wife to work. I am not very old, either: just 62.

I think the LGBT in the military and the work place will end up the same way. Most people will get used to the idea, in time. And, the people who do not get used to the idea will not get used to the idea, and they will just have to put up with the way that things will be, just like people are used to female doctors and lawyers today.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

"People tend to believe as they wish, and just because they talk about it more or talk about it less does not change their beliefs."

*sigh* This is EXACTLY what happens, actually. Literally, actually, studied and proven. My partner is a psych major and I learned all SORTS of stuff about it while he was in college.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_t...ch_on_telling_girls_they_re_bad_at_math_.html
http://archive.news.indiana.edu/releases/iu/2015/03/stereotype-threats.shtml
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1471-6402.1997.tb00104.x
http://metro.co.uk/2015/12/01/if-you-repeat-a-lie-enough-people-think-its-true-5536488/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect

Facts matter. Words matter a LOT. Every person who hears that they're worse because of their gender believes it a little more. Every person that hears someone else is worse for their gender believes it a little bit more. Every time you tell it to yourself you believe it a little bit more.

I will NOT sit by and let it go spoken that women are worse without a voice to counter it. Ever.
I will say it loud. I will say it over and over and over again. I will provide citations every time.

Words matter. FBBs words (and other posters here) negative effect the people who read them.
Sexism is wrong. Women are not inherently manipulative. They do not falsely report sexual assault or lie for their own benefit any more than anybody else does. Women deserve to be treated as complete equals by all people. And FBB's behavior does not reflect equality and respect.


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I don't really believe that there is such a thing as equality, with men among men AND with women amongst women.
Id have you know that whenever I go out to the sale I go to once a month, I try to make acquaintences with women ONLY for the most part, just to shoot the bull with them and hear them talk about whatever. For whatever reason, fate has always decreed that they were married women. I didn't go looking for a wedding ring. I just went looking for conversation.


----------



## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Bill has the right to feel and say what he does, just as Chocolate Mouse has the right to rebuke him. Part of that annoying first amendment.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Facts matter. Words matter a LOT. Every person who hears that they're worse because of their gender believes it a little more. Every person that hears someone else is worse for their gender believes it a little bit more. Every time you tell it to yourself you believe it a little bit more.
> 
> I will NOT sit by and let it go spoken that women are worse without a voice to counter it. Ever.
> I will say it loud. I will say it over and over and over again. I will provide citations every time.
> ...


I'll try to not get ot too much, but a short sociology lesson.

Culture is developed over several generations. Decisions are made and the results are remembered. At first, there is direct memory within the group, and they can refer to the past event when making future decisions. But after several generations, the more important decisions become codified in their culture. Eventually, no one remembers why it is so, but it is part of their culture.

At some point, someone challenges that rule, but a culture's role is to fight change. That is how a culture protects itself. Even though no one can remember why they made it a rule, they knew that at one point in time, it was very important to make it one and changing the rule might have negative consequences.

Very seldom could a single person change the culture, so it took generations of a few attacking the rule before there was enough consensus to change it. "Dissidents" were often driven out of the tribe. As people grouped into larger and larger groups, the number of "dissidents" grew, even though as a percent of the population they remained about the same.

Then came the internet, so now these "dissidents" can easily find like minded people and band together to form a larger group. So we have more people challenging our culture, but still about the same percent of the population. The internet allows "dissidents" to be more visible and to speak with a loud voice.

Because they have an echo chamber (internet), they believe there is a larger consensus than there actually is and want immediate change. But again, culture's role is to fight change. To not abandon old tried and true rules. To make change difficult.

I think the main reason Obama was so divisive was because he largely ignored our culture and tried to ram change down the throats of many Americans, especially Christians. Whether his approach really advanced the change he tried to accomplish long term, remains to be seen.

So you are in a catch 22 position. The louder you yell, the harder the culture will fight against you. But if you don't yell, you will likely be ignored. I think movements are most successful when there are a relatively small percentage of yellers and a larger group of moderates who can work within the culture to change it. Look at the 60's for examples.

In relation to the op, real discrimination is wrong; but some women used the women's rights movement as a crutch, as an excuse for their own inadequacies. Instead of questioning what they could have done to receive the promotion, they look first for indications of discrimination. Instead of putting a plan together to improve and win the next opportunity, they look for anything that might be discrimination.

So to protect against the few, a male manager makes sure there is a witness to any conversation. That it never comes down to he said, she said. 

And if you look at the study, this was not old men saying this. It was all men except for liberals.


----------



## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Because some people are just fixated on Obama.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Clem said:


> Bill has the right to feel and say what he does, just as Chocolate Mouse has the right to rebuke him. Part of that annoying first amendment.


First Amendment has nothing to do with it. We aren't the government!


----------



## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Yet a public forum is public. That's why it's a *public* forum. The forum, and the vast majority of the members are based in the United States. If you feel that Danville is another country(and I can see how that's partially viable) then you can follow that country's laws.
The first amendment is not designed to protect the government. It's designed to protect the public *FROM* the government.

You see, when this country was first formed, the general idea was a representative government by consent, which is to say they represented the people. Not so true now, but the Bill of Rights still stands. The first amendment being first for a reason. Read it carefully:
*Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.*


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You know what I suspect that women are no worse liars than men. 
I suspect that less than 1 in. 1000 would lie about sex for revenge or gain. 
The problem is I don't know who that one is. 

Am I mislabeling women then because I suspect there might be one surface from time to time.


----------



## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Choc, in post 25 second paragraph, you use terms, acronyms, abbreviations that I could understand about half of. Probably because I'm an old conservative white male ******* cowboy type person.


----------



## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

That's a very obvious straw man, in that you are saying 1 in 1000, then comparing that to "all". I realize this is not the sort of inflammatory response you hoped for, but it's about as angry as I can muster.


AmericanStand said:


> You know what I suspect that women are no worse liars than men. I suspect that less than 1 in. 1000 would lie about sex for revenge or gain. The problem is I don't know who that one is. Am I mislabeling women then because I suspect there might be one surface from time to time.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Moonriver; I'm not really sure what your rant is about at all. Are you saying that change shouldn't happen because even the majority of people don't like it? This doesn't make any sense and completely lacks empathy. People are currently suffering directly from that lack of change, even being beaten, raped or killed. There's no timeline for when an abused person should stop being abused or living in fear. Ever. To suggest so is just kind of disgusting IMO.

Americanstand; 100% Yes. Specifically BECAUSE this is gender-based. Because the entire thing is based on the presumption that women will lie about it and get away with it but men won't.
You are just as likely to be falsely accused of beating up a male co-worker as you are to be falsely accused of sexually assaulting a female co-worker. Or for sexually assaulting a male co-worker.
If you choose to single out women as the problem, then you are the problem. Because there's NO EVIDENCE to suggest that you are more likely to get in trouble falsely with a woman in your office than with a man. So if you have one-on-one meetings with men you are putting yourself at the exact same risk as a one-on-one meeting with a woman. So why exactly are you denying meetings to women but not to men? The risk is the same per capita.
I also presume you're not suggesting that women shouldn't have one-on-one meetings and probably be denied promotions because someone can't keep it in their pants, so the only reason to deny women those meeting is sexism. Because people ARE accused more often of sexual assault against women, but not FALSELY accused more often.



whiterock said:


> Choc, in post 25 second paragraph, you use terms, acronyms, abbreviations that I could understand about half of. Probably because I'm an old conservative white male ******* cowboy type person.


Haha! I don't believe that being conservative, *******, old OR male makes you inherently uneducated about social issues. My mama was super conservative and *******. There's a reason that I *am* on a homesteading site, after-all. I grow my own food and butcher animals largely because how I was raised, by an old ******* conservative. The difference was she had right wing solutions to left wing problems. (For example; Rape culture? Carry a gun and learn to blow people's brains out.) She didn't deny that the problems were there by any means.
Also, people are capable of change, and I'm happy to accept people's changes for the better. We can all learn and grow.
So I guess, would you like to know what they mean? If you'd like to learn more, you're welcome to PM me. I'd be VERY happy to explain any of the terms you didn't understand.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Moonriver; I'm not really sure what your rant is about at all. Are you saying that change shouldn't happen because even the majority of people don't like it? This doesn't make any sense and completely lacks empathy. People are currently suffering directly from that lack of change, even being beaten, raped or killed. There's no timeline for when an abused person should stop being abused or living in fear. Ever. To suggest so is just kind of disgusting IMO.


No ranting here. I thought you might be open to discussion, but apparently you are not.

I attempted to explain sociologically, why change takes a long time. It has nothing to do with whether it is good or bad.

In sociology, empathy is used to explain group behavior. Just because I understand why someone or some group does something, doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I have attempted to discuss this as an observer of society, not as someone with a fixed point of view.

Being beaten, raped, or killed are already illegal, so it seems what you are looking for is special treatment for some classes of people.

I'm explaining how life works while you keep saying how you want it to work. Change takes time. Show me a major change that happened immediately?


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Moon, I'm actually, genuinely confused as to where your brain is at.

I know why change takes a long time. But we were talking about whether things are good or bad. I suspect most of the people in the world grasp the concept that change takes time... So why'd you feel the need to explain it at all?
I never made the claim that broad societal changes don't take time. Why should I show you proof for something I never said?
You went on some random rant about Obama which is related to this conversation how exactly...?
You also randomly slandered women saying they use the rights movement as a crutch, that minority groups overestimate support, when studies show no evidence of that at all.
Is that a discussion? What exactly are you trying to discuss here?

While those things are illegal, they're enforced selectively and dismissed more easily for certain groups. I have already demonstrated this with sexual harassment and rape. The same is true of other social groups. Just because a law is written to be equal does not mean it is enforced equally.
If I provide citations for it from credible sources would you concede the point that law is not enforced equally for minority groups and sometimes women?

No point at all in talking to someone who doesn't bring in related points or acknowledge facts. So if you won't do either then *shrugs*.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Moon, I'm actually, genuinely confused as to where your brain is at.
> 
> I know why change takes a long time. But we were talking about whether things are good or bad. I suspect most of the people in the world grasp the concept that change takes time... So why'd you feel the need to explain it at all?
> I never made the claim that broad societal changes don't take time. Why should I show you proof for something I never said?


I can see were Moon got that impression! The tactics you are using are most often used to bring about immediate changes, which would be why moon thought you were trying for an immediate change.

To change the culture, yelling is often counter productive unless you are trying to do something fast, like change a law. Yelling can be an effective way to rally your troops to get a law passed, because your supporters will not realize they are needed unless you say it loud and clear and be hard in no uncertain terms. But, it often ends up with a backlash going the opposite way, as your opposition may ALSO dig in and stand more firmly against you. Yelling polarizes, and if you think you have the numbers to make a fast change in the law or whatever, it can be very effective. If you are trying to make a culture change, not so much so, as it makes the opposition more firmly set in their ways also. The culture ight actually go backwards on ya.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Hi Terri, if you looked at the links I provided you would know that simply by saying things loudly and frequently in places were many people can see them, we can make cultural changes more rapid as well, since culture is just an amalgamation of individual beliefs. It SHOULD be a rapid change. I don't EXPECT it to be one but it SHOULD be one.
Frankly, I also no longer care about the comfort level or cultural security of people who think that their culture or social comfort should come before other people's very lives. If you think that backlash against cultural/legal changes that save lives and let people live without fear is OK, you're kind of a gross person. If you give up freedoms for security you deserve neither sort of a thing.
People have a choice to make. No religion, culture or tradition is worth human lives. If you disagree, people will fight back. What have they got to loose? They're already loosing their lives. And there's been so many years of "debate" that nobody feels much like talking anymore.

I also still don't see how the random sociology lesson/rant about obama/etc. was relevant to whether or not it's sexist and damaging to not let women have one-on-one meetings, or to portray women as manipulative, etc.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Ah. An example of how the 2 ways of bringing about change work together. Some yelling changed the laws in California so that a tax-supported university could not forbid women from taking classes or obtaining degrees in traditionally male fields. That changed the law.

What changed the CULTURE was that those women who got admitted to the colleges did the work and were successful. This took a while. Yelling at this point was not very productive: what WAS effective was that people stopped wondering if we ladies could cut it and, quite simply, got used to the idea.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Hi Terri, if you looked at the links I provided you would know that simply by saying things loudly and frequently in places were many people can see them, we can make cultural changes more rapid as well, since culture is just an amalgamation of individual beliefs. It SHOULD be a rapid change. I don't EXPECT it to be one but it SHOULD be one.


"Should" does not work very well, because humans are so rarely logical. Myself included.

One of the joys of homesteading is that I can do something without people saying that I should not, for example, dig a hole or repair something. It makes life so much more peaceful. But that is an emotional response and not a logical one. To the dear old ladies who were afraid I would hurt myself, using logic was never very effective. Saying "Nah, I am fine" or "But I am enjoying it" worked very much better.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Those women would have never had the chance to even try if it weren't for yelling to allow them to try and prove themselves.

Since you want a good example of a place where yelling has made a difference;
http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-rise-in-support-for-gay-marriage-in-1-chart/
Gay marriage support did a complete 180 over the last 10 years. It went to 30% support from 30% oppose in less than a decade.
This did not come about through just being good citizens and changing culture. Because gay people had been just being gay for many, many years and fighting for it. It changed because gay communities found a home, especially online, and started talking, loudly, about their challenges and why people should support them.
"Same sex marriage seems headed in the same glide path as interracial marriage, where support today is at a near-unanimous 87 percent in Gallup polling," said Yang. "But in looking at the Gallup trend, it took roughly a quarter of a century for interracial marriage to achieve the support gay marriage receives today."

Incidentally, I think this is very interesting because gay marriage became law when more than half of america supported it.
Interracial marriage became law in 1967 when less than 20% of people supported it.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/163697/approve-marriage-blacks-whites.aspx

This is another great example of civil rights changes that came about quickly from being loud, actually. There was almost no support for it yet it became law anyhow.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I already told you that yelling makes a difference. Just not every time. Sometimes a demonstration is far more effective.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Teri, then I'm not even sure what you're arguing for? It seems that we generally agree in this case that speaking out is effective...? But you also don't think people should speak out when they see the sexism that was expressed in this thread? Doesn't make much sense...

In any case, it seems like the HT website is no longer functioning. So I'm prolly gonna go away for a while anyhow. It takes like 30 minutes to load making a post and there's like 6 people posting in all the different threads these days. Good times.

I really hope someday this forum gets it's rear in gear and stops being a homogeneous one-sided community someday. There's an awful lot of homesteaders out there who would love to participate in real talks about homesteading but aint gonna touch a forum like this with a ten foot pole cause it's super biased and one sided. Anywhere else on the internet and I think FBB wouldn't be able to chat very much anymore.
If any of ya'll wonder why most kids want nothing to do with farming, churches, conservatism, etc... Well, it aint hard to find.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

My argument is that yelling is not always an effective tool. It can be effective at times, but not always.

Sometimes words do not cut it. Sometimes doing a thing instead of talking about a thing is far more effective than words.

I got into the thread because a couple of posts from a couple of people needed to be moderated. And, once in I stayed in, because it is something I have watched over the last several decades. You have shared your sites with me, and I have shared what I have seen to be effective with you.

And you are right about the site cutting out. It is annoying, isn't it. It has also already been reported: I think I will add my name to the list of folks who have seen it happen


----------



## DKWunlimited (Sep 11, 2006)

Actually I will call BS on the statisitcs. The number of gays serving in the military are considerably higher and have been for many years. My ex father in law enlisted in the Navy in 1960 and had a very long career as an officer. It's where he untimatly met his life partner. He has told me and his grandchildren that you are only as offended as you choose to be. He has never felt the need to be in peoples face and laughs to this day at the people who scream about discrimination. If you are conducting yourself in a professional manner and leaving your private life, religion, politics etc at home then you will be judged on your work product. He and his partner have been together for 30 years and although they could now get married they both say "How rediculous, we've got all the legal paperwork in place to take care of each other, why would we need 1 more piece of paper" .

Aside from that, I am a 51 year old female in a wheelchair. Not once in my life have I ever been offended by being called a girl, gimp, cripple or any other slang type word. It just doesn't define me and I don't waste time giving it any thought.

FBB is just Bill, while I don't always agree with his opinions, he's just making conversation and certainly keeps things interesting around here.

Editted to add - There is an unofficial gay officers reunion every year in Dallas, started out with 20 of them about 25 years ago and the group has grown to over 100. All men in thier 80's who were career military. The stories are amazing and one of my favorites is a man who was in the Army as a staff phycologist for 40 years. He met his life partner when the man and his wife came in for marriage counceling. 3 years later, the guy came back to ask him on a date.


----------



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

DKW,
My father served in WWII and Korea and in both conflicts found out about homosexuals in his units and during his service , he held to the standing rule of "Don't ask. Don't tell" of the era and overlooked the preferences of those of alternative lifestyle other than to remind others in his platoon of the standing rule and that all members of the unit were expected to protect each other in fire fights regardless of any suspicions of orientation/personal preferences.

Years after the Korean War two men of his unit who had become a couple in a gay friendly area visited us and thanked him for protecting their rank, promotion paths and well being.

After they left to continue their travels, he told me although the military of their era had Don't ask. Don't tell. and they often had issues with some, the majority of their unit respected them as soldiers, many owed their lives to them and they both lifed out of the military.

As you said, gays from that era often did not marry when it became legal. Those two vets didn't and were still together in their 70s/80s, provided for each other and all my father had to say of them was they both were highly decorated for their military service as enlisted rank and their private lives were nobody's concern except them.


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Cant argue with that. I never saw any, never knew any, never asked about any. Actually at those times I was in, I think I thought that they didn't want to serve for fear of being found out and messed up.


----------



## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Words of wisdom wisdom DKW and Shrek's father through Shrek.


----------



## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Which reminds me of a totally inappropriate joke


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Does it have to do with soap under the influence of gravity lol


----------



## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

A career Navy man died and went to heaven. He said "I'm ***** **** **** to be here!"

St Peter said, "We don't use that kind of language here."

The sailor said, Sorry. I spent 20 years in the Navy.

Peter said, "Really?? I was in the Navy too!"

The sailor asked "How did you like it?"
St Peter said "OK, except for ******** **** ******"

ETA: I know it's considered bad form to explain a joke, but I've got to get back outside, and this particular joke in this particular thread could easily backfire. So, in explanation, the joke is about drinking and cussing, as in the expressions "spending like a drunk sailor" and "cussing like a sailor"


----------



## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

As a sailor I feel offended.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Clem said:


> That's a very obvious straw man, in that you are saying 1 in 1000, then comparing that to "all". I realize this is not the sort of inflammatory response you hoped for, but it's about as angry as I can muster.


 I wasn't. Looking to inflame. 
I was just pointing out how one in a thousand can effect how I have to deal with "all"


----------

