# Women...what is "a REAL man"?



## Farmer Dave (Jan 1, 2003)

This question is aimed mainly at the females on the forum. On those dating sites like POF or Farmers Only there are always women that say they are looking for "a REAL man". I think of myself as a real man, after all I have all the necessary plumbing, a manly voice, I look like a man and I like women and I'm a fun loving and easy going kind of guy, but apparently that doesn't equal a REAL man to them. 

I'm friends with a woman I met two years ago on POF who after 6 months said she only wanted to be friends and nothing more. Her profile stated she was looking for a REAL man. She was hung up on some guy that dumped her that she's known for 10 years and treated her like crap. She told me about his verbal abuse, unfaithfulness, never would take her out anywhere, never bought her gifts, etc, but she was (maybe still is) helplessly in love with him. What's up with that??? I've dated many other women just like her that fall head over heels in love with a jerk that treats them like dirt yet they never fall in love with me. I just don't get it. If being a REAL man means being an a**hole jerk then I guess I will remain alone the rest of my life because I will always respect the women I'm involved with.


----------



## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

That's a question that comes up....every couple months.

Seriously.

Fact of the matter is, everyone's definition is different.

Mon


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Farmer Dave, your lady friend reminds me of somebody that worked in my husbands office.

She much preferred to meet men at parties and bars, because such men were fun. THEN, she would get upset because none of those guys wanted to settle down, get married, give up the party scene, and have kids!

Some women are flat out attracted to men who are poor husband material! And a women who is attracted to the party boys OR to men who are mean to women both are not likely to marry a good man!

For myself, a Real Man has a real heart, but many women disagree.

Oh, yes.

If a woman dates a long string of men who treat her badly, then she is either of the opinion that is all she deserves, or that is the kind of man she is attracted to. Usually. That is just my opinion!


----------



## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

Dave, we kinda beat that topic to death in this thread:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/specialty-forums/country-singletree/478550-good-man.html


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Interesting.. ever time I've heard a woman say they were looking for a real man, they usually exclusively dated men who were abusive, in and out of trouble with the law, hard drinkers, and even harder partyers and seldom worked...


----------



## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

You sound like a "Good Man" to me, Dave. Maybe you're just attracted to "Bad Women"?


----------



## Farmer Dave (Jan 1, 2003)

nehimama said:


> Dave, we kinda beat that topic to death in this thread:
> 
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/specialty-forums/country-singletree/478550-good-man.html



I see what ya mean...I must have missed that thread somehow, or just forgot about it. Memory isn't what it use to be.


*****


----------



## Farmer Dave (Jan 1, 2003)

Terri said:


> Farmer Dave, your lady friend reminds me of somebody that worked in my husbands office.
> 
> She much preferred to meet men at parties and bars, because such men were fun. THEN, she would get upset because none of those guys wanted to settle down, get married, give up the party scene, and have kids!
> 
> ...



What gets my goat is my friend has complained that every guy she has ever gotten serious with ends up being a jerk. She knows I'm not a jerk and she could be perfectly happy with me but I get the old line "I don't think of you that way, you are JUST a friend. I don't want to ruin our friendship by getting serious." So she remains lonely and unhappy and so do I. It makes no sense.


*****


----------



## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

simi-steading said:


> Interesting.. ever time I've heard a woman say they were looking for a real man, they usually exclusively dated men who were abusive, in and out of trouble with the law, hard drinkers, and even harder partyers and seldom worked...


Boy, Howdy!!!!!


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

You, my friend have fallen in to my area of expertice! I may sue!

But since this is your first time,.and i have mucho exspwrience, i will give the first session free.

"just be friends"- translates to, i wanta sleep with other guys, but keep you around to complain about the guys i am sleeping with. You are stable, nice, polite and willing to take it. What she wants is one of msny things....money, fun (usually defined as someone to get hammered with) or msy just want domeone to treat them bad.

Dont get me wrong, i sm friends with lots of women, but ususlly ones i havent slept with, or ones thst were honest enough to tell me what wasnt working.

If i am wrong, i dincerely apologise.


----------



## Catalpa (Dec 18, 2011)

Just sounds like you need to move on and meet other women.

My definition of real man is one who is strong, responsible, gentle, and caring, who puts the needs of his family first.

I've seen the other side, too, meeting men who barely glance at my crows-feet-middle-aged-overweight-calloused-hands self before they turn around and pour on the charm and drool over some skinny-blonde-half-their-age twit, and then get all upset 'cause she cain't cook, clean, garden, drive a tractor and butcher the chickens. Go figure. I guess folks just don't know how to really SEE when they're lookin'.


----------



## Terri in WV (May 10, 2002)

Farmer Dave said:


> What gets my goat is my friend has complained that every guy she has ever gotten serious with ends up being a jerk. She knows I'm not a jerk and she could be perfectly happy with me but I get the old line "I don't think of you that way, you are JUST a friend. I don't want to ruin our friendship by getting serious." So she remains lonely and unhappy and so do I. It makes no sense.
> 
> 
> *****


I can see this as I could never get romantically involved with someone I considered a friend. I'm not able to see them any other way. I can still recall the time a good friend and I were playing cards when my best friend, Steve, stopped by. After he left, Caroline said, "OMG, he's so cute! Don't you think so?" I was like, EEWWWWW, no! I could only see him as my friend, otherwise it'd have been like checking out my brother-eeewww.

As far as a "real" man, well, they're all real, but boy does the quality differ!


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Farmer Dave said:


> What gets my goat is my friend has complained that every guy she has ever gotten serious with ends up being a jerk.


 Attraction is never logical!


----------



## Guest (Mar 28, 2013)

I don't think that I'd be all that interested in a person who's attracted to jerks..it's a compliment , IMHO, that she isn't chasing you !!! 

Count your lucky stars and head off to find a gal who's not addicted to drama


----------



## starjj (May 2, 2005)

Yeah she wants to keep you around for a shoulder to cry on. One thing you said is she could be happy with you NOT because she doesn't want that she wants drama.

Ask yourself WHY you are hanging around still. Do you think she will change her mind? Is she worth it? She wouldn't be happy no matter what you do

So keep wasting your time or get on with it.


----------



## ErikaMay (Feb 28, 2013)

Orrr...maybe you just arn't as good as you think you are. Or maybe you arn't as good a match for her as you think. 

My last relationship the guy started off kind and acted respectful. He was a "nice guy," but something just didn't feel right to me about him. After enough friends and family were like, "oh what a good guy! hes a real catch" I gave him a chance....the nice guy thing lasted a year then quickly devolved into a jerk. AND he was so concerned with proving that he was a "real man" that all he stopped doing the very things that made him seem like a man to me. My gut was right we weren't a good match for each other. 

Just because you think you are so great and you are "there for her" doesn't mean she owes you a relationship. I've known plenty of guys who outwardly seem/say they are nice guys....but are actually creeps a few layers down. Likewise, I've known men that seem like creeps but with the right person clean up their acts. 

And a real man? Real men don't complain to others when someone they like doesn't like them back. They are confident enough in themselves that they figure "if she doesn't want what I have, then I'm better off without her."


----------



## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

ErikaMay wrote:

"Just because you think you are so great and you are "there for her" doesn't mean she owes you a relationship."

Exactly! I never knew how to say this, but you put it into the exact words I'd have used IF I could've come UP with the words!! THIS is the whole crux of the problem when folks accuse others of "playing games", insincerity, dishonesty, drama, lies. The object of YOUR desire does NOT owe you a relationship! It ISN'T lying, drama, or not knowing what they want. They don't want YOU and don't owe you anything!!


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

What Em just said. IF anybody thinks otherwise, Im a creep a few layers down, and I DONT clean up nicely with the right person, as there is no such person to clean up for.


----------



## Farmer Dave (Jan 1, 2003)

ErikaMay said:


> Orrr...maybe you just arn't as good as you think you are. Or maybe you arn't as good a match for her as you think.
> 
> My last relationship the guy started off kind and acted respectful. He was a "nice guy," but something just didn't feel right to me about him. After enough friends and family were like, "oh what a good guy! hes a real catch" I gave him a chance....the nice guy thing lasted a year then quickly devolved into a jerk. AND he was so concerned with proving that he was a "real man" that all he stopped doing the very things that made him seem like a man to me. My gut was right we weren't a good match for each other.
> 
> ...


You sound like my friend. All guys are jerks in her mind. I was over her romantically after she told me that I was JUST a friend, that was a year ago. We are still friends, we still email or talk on the phone every week and even meet for a beer every few months. Just because she doesn't want a serious relationship with me doesn't mean we can't still be friends and enjoy each others company. 

And incidentally, I never insinuated that she owes me anything! 

*****


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Yea, I agree with ya farmer Dave.

If a woman is complaining about their boyfriend cheating, lying, being lazy etc... A guy is equipped to know if he is that kinda guy.

I am hot saying a woman owes a guy anything, but I feel I know me pretty good, and I know I don't do those things.

Guys don't claim to be "a real man", whatever that is, but it is a mystery to some of us, why women are attracted to cocky guys, and then shocked when they treat them poorly.

Maybe it lays in a different definition between genders. Most guys can point out SN a hole, when he walks in a room. He will be the guy with women around him!


----------



## YellowRabbit (Mar 3, 2013)

HMMM. well, I have a guy friend that has wanted to date for a long time, but the thing is I am just not attracted to him sexually. 
then again I have been there too, finding what I thought was a perfect guy a real man to me, and he just wasn't attracted to me, not girly enough.
so I think everyone has been on one side or the other,
And Mcikm, women wonder why guys seem to like the girly types that wont go fishing, wont go camping or help in the yard, then complain at work about it
does anyone really know what they want till they get it?


----------



## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

Farmer Dave wrote:

"And incidentally, I never insinuated that she owes me anything"

I surely didn't mean YOU, in particular. I was speakin' to the general "you". And I'm fairly certain that ErikaMay was, as well.


----------



## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

YellowRabbit said:


> HMMM. well, I have a guy friend that has wanted to date for a long time, but the thing is I am just not attracted to him sexually.
> then again I have been there too, finding what I thought was a perfect guy a real man to me, and he just wasn't attracted to me, not girly enough.
> so I think everyone has been on one side or the other,
> And Mcikm, women wonder why guys seem to like the girly types that wont go fishing, wont go camping or help in the yard, then complain at work about it
> does anyone really know what they want till they get it?


Yes, that "certain something" has to be there for attraction for it to work. I mean, we don't put ourselves out there, LOOKIN' for s*x, but we all know darned well, it's eventually going to come into play. AND. . . if the initial attraction isn't there to build on, the relationship ain't gonna work!


----------



## starjj (May 2, 2005)

ErikaMay is a bit harsh IMO. I don't see where anyone said she owed Dave anything least of all Dave. Bitterness over past relationships does tend to influence a point of view. Dave best thing IMO is to cut her out of your life. If you feel any attraction to her it is only going to keep you in limbo.


----------



## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

Chemistry is a must, and it's hard to pin down. Sometimes it is instantaneous and both parties have a difficult time getting around that... such relationships can be sensational, or they can burn you to a crisp. (These are the relationships that make you act like an idiot, convincing yourself of all sorts of preposterous notions.)

Other times it's a slow burn and can indeed evolve from friendship. And sometimes it will never develop, no matter how well suited the couple may otherwise be. You can't force it, you can't manufacture it -- and you sure can't fake it for long.

I try to stay away from those self-immolation-type relationships. It's too hard to go back and get sorted once you've got the lovemaking in the mix. Likewise, I would never try to pretend what I simply didn't feel. Not fair to either person.

Best in my view is the close friendship that ignites at some point. It does happen. Boy howdy, yes, it does. But sadly, Farmer Dave, sometimes it does not. And my guess is that her reticence to enter into a love relationship with you has to do with that more than anything. Not much you can do except decide if her friendship is enough without tormenting you to pieces. I do, however, think it's fair to ask her to refrain from complaining about her otherwise messed-up search for The Perfect Man.

Best to you. These things are almost comically challenging.


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

mickm said:


> Yea, I agree with ya farmer Dave.
> 
> If a woman is complaining about their boyfriend cheating, lying, being lazy etc... A guy is equipped to know if he is that kinda guy.
> 
> ...



Gotta be honest, I am not sure I want a woman who likes fishing, it's not that I am, intimidated by them, but I do like alone time!

Now if a woman likes yard work, .they are welcome to it! Outside of the garden, I hate mowing etc..... I will gladly do a chore they hate, in exchange!


----------



## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

Also meant to add... it's futile to attempt to define "a real man," as this means as many different things as women you ask. The relevance of the question is only to the woman with whom you hope to have a relationship.


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Women stating, "Looking for a REAL Man" remind me of the scenes in the movie Airplane. The ones with the blonde chick saying, "I've never been with a real man before....." The next scene is all the douchebags lined up for her, including a donkey.

Possibly the real issue is why do guys respond these women?

To say we can't help what we're sexually attracted to isn't entirely true. We can step back and explore WHY someone or some TYPE sets us afire. If it's consistently BAD triggers, we need to take the inward journey to disconnent those and install new ones..


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Laura, your bottom sentence is exactly right. BUT unfortunatly, for both men and women, Boys and girls, It takes maturity, which I nsuppose most of us on here NOW have. It HOPEFULLY comes with time and experience.


----------



## Farmer Dave (Jan 1, 2003)

Raeven said:


> I do, however, think it's fair to ask her to refrain from complaining about her otherwise messed-up search for The Perfect Man.



She hardly ever mentions her bad relationships anymore because I told her I will discuss anything with her except her past relationships. Whenever she forgets and brings up the subject, I just stare at her silently with an upraised eyebrow and she changes the subject. On the phone I simply talk about another subject and she stops or I tell her I need to go.


*****


----------



## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

I guess your just not what she is looking for in a romantic relationship. Some other woman will be looking for just your type, to her you'll be a 'real man', and when you break up you'll be a creep. Thats how it goes.


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Farmer Dave said:


> She hardly ever mentions her bad relationships anymore because I told her I will discuss anything with her except her past relationships. Whenever she forgets and brings up the subject, I just stare at her silently with an upraised eyebrow and she changes the subject. On the phone I simply talk about another subject and she stops or I tell her I need to go.
> 
> 
> *****


 I think you identified the issue right there. If she respected you as a man and a Guy Friend, she wouldn't try to treat you like a girlfriend. She doesn't "forget" and bring it up again, she doesn't respect your NO so she keeps testing your manhood whenever her girlfriends get sick of hearing the boohoo tale. 

Show her REAL Man and aggressively shut her down next time she tries to treat you like a girlfriend. Maybe this is why other guys treat her like crap? She's treating you like crap when she does this.

Honestly, I have a lot of Guy Friends I consider Real Men. I trust and respect them, I go them for a lot of stuff. A boundary I would NEVER cross with any of them is to discuss other relationships, even with the men who know I have them and who they are with. That's what girlfriends and the internet are for.


----------



## SimplerTimez (Jan 20, 2008)

A real man is one that was born one. After that, it's all subjective. To some it could be a man that knows a Manet from Monet and how to pick the best year of Reisling; to others it is one that can fix a tractor and cook up a mean fish fry; to yet another it is one who can garden, build and reads Emerson at night. 

Men, like women, are kind of flailing around a bit these days now that we lack traditional roles in so many arenas. I can't say as I've ever said the words "I'd like to meet a real man", and as such, I'm probably not shedding a whole lot of light on this subject and should just be quiet. Hah!

~ST


----------



## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

SimplerTimez said:


> I can't say as I've ever said the words "I'd like to meet a real man", and as such, I'm probably not shedding a whole lot of light on this subject and should just be quiet. Hah!
> 
> ~ST


Living across the river from NYC I say that quite frequently.


----------



## WhyNot (Jun 21, 2011)

I prefer untraditional traditional men, personally. I know 'em when I see 'em.


----------



## ErikaMay (Feb 28, 2013)

Farmer Dave said:


> You sound like my friend. All guys are jerks in her mind. I was over her romantically after she told me that I was JUST a friend, that was a year ago. We are still friends, we still email or talk on the phone every week and even meet for a beer every few months. Just because she doesn't want a serious relationship with me doesn't mean we can't still be friends and enjoy each others company.
> 
> And incidentally, I never insinuated that she owes me anything!
> 
> *****


I did not say all men are jerks...but there are alot of jerks who claim to be nice guys. I know LOTS of men who are good men, and not jerks. Sadly, anytime I have been attracted to non-jerks but the feeling was not mutual....so I have only dated jerks (one wasn't. we just weren't right for each other). Actually, I ATTRACT legit nut cases...they pursue me and I finally wear down and date them. Thus why many women date jerks.

I was aggressive towards you because your post reeks of nice guy syndrome. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Nice_guy_syndrome 

You said later that she isn't talking about her relationship problems anymore, and if she slips up you cut her off. That seems like reasonable. You say you arn't attracted to her anymore after she said you were just friends...but then you come here and started a whole thread to complain about how unfair it is she will date "jerks" but not you. well...so what it is and what is the point of this thread?


----------



## WhyNot (Jun 21, 2011)

My daughter does not read this forum but I found it interesting and appropriate to post here what she wrote earlier today on her FB

"So there's this myth: That nice guys get put in the 'friend zone', simply for being nice. But that's not the case. FRIENDS get put in the 'friend zone' Because they're being very friendly. The world doesn't owe you ---- for being nice, and girls certainly don't either. You're SUPPOSED to be nice to people, you don't get a cookie for doing something you should be doing anyway."

In general..most men who are nice usually are so unassertive we womens cannot tell they actually want more than to be friends. Sometimes we suspect they may be gay even. If you consider yourself a "nice guy" and are told that all the time and also told you are not "relationship material"...well...common denominator time. Sorry.

But then every so often you find the one(s) that have that nice balance of nice and assertive...and then we don't have to guess...if we have to guess we put you on the "friends only without potential" list...because we don't know for sure. We may still put you there even if you are both nice and assertive...but at least we know for sure...otherwise we file away "nice and can't tell" all as friends.

Did I just break the girl code?


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Yeaah, you broke the girl code, but it still may need to be translated into guyspeak for some of them.


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Yep, but don't bother translation, I still don't think we would get it.


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Yep. IF a woman trys to despeak girl speak, its likely a waste fo good time.


----------



## Farmer Dave (Jan 1, 2003)

ErikaMay said:


> You say you arn't attracted to her anymore after she said you were just friends...but then you come here and started a whole thread to complain about how unfair it is she will date "jerks" but not you. well...so what it is and what is the point of this thread?



The point of this thread is to get a viewpoint on how women think when choosing who or who not to date. I'm 61, divorced and STILL don't know what women want and most of the time I believe they don't know either. They say one thing and mean something else...are completely illogical in their actions. I'm just looking for a little insight into a womans mindset.


*****


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

How long ya been divorced, Dave? Sounds like your in the all women are nutts , and I hear ya.

I don't have a clue what women want either, and truth is, they are all different.

But it don't matter what they want. We are who we are. We can't change, anymore then the women can change what they want. It is part of the magic


----------



## WhyNot (Jun 21, 2011)

Farmer Dave said:


> This question is aimed mainly at the females on the forum. On those dating sites like POF or Farmers Only there are always women that say they are looking for "a REAL man".


To me it sounds like they don't really know what they are looking for because if they did, it would be more clear. Being clear is nice but sometimes hard to do if you really cannot put your finger on it.

You know what I find a lot of singles site men's profile saying? "I want to meet an upbeat, happy woman"

That says a lot and seems to go hand in hand with what you are saying...a lot of women say they want a "real man" but end up getting tangled up with jerks. I believe it is a self understanding or self knowledge thing...the women don't know enough about themselves or have enough confidence to recognize a "real man" (whatever that is).

And the "real men" that they actually may be meeting...are looking for a happy person without steam trunks full of drama and maintenance...which..a lot of these "woman seeking real man" people seem to have.

Just a few thoughts.


----------



## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Dave let me first state that I never signed no stinking code agreement. I believe following little girl codes or little boy codes are what keep up from what we're looking for. 

Second, you've figured it out with this....


> STILL don't know what women want and most of the time I believe they don't know either.


No one knows, at least not consciously what they truly want and need. The heart knows. The old axiom "if at first you don't succeed, try, try again" holds true.


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

I am going to try to explain how men feel.

It's easy for some men to loose their "self assertive" or self confidence with women. I t doesn't mean they are not self confident in their abilities, other wise. Hearing "I only like you as a friend" from a woman they we are comfortable with, only knocks a he's confidence some more.

See women complain they don't like guys hitting on them. Truth is, they don't like the wrong guys hitting on them. 

Guys are the same in a different way. We often can't recognized what is right in front of us.

All I can say is we all need to be ourselves. We eventually meet someone who works, and then it's easy.


----------



## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

I cannot speak for any other women, only myself.

In the past 7 years, I've dated a lot of men..once..and a few longer than a month. I know exactly "what" I'm looking for in a man, and refuse to settle for less..
"Character"..integrity, MORALS, kindness, strength of purpose.
"Behaviors"...well-mannered, well-spoken, respectful of all people..
"Values"...God, family, community over "self"..

Of course there are more, but if those qualities aren't there, neither am I.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Farmer Dave said:


> I'm 61, divorced and STILL don't know what women want and most of the time I believe they don't know either. They say one thing and mean something else...are completely illogical in their actions. I'm just looking for a little insight into a womans mindset.
> 
> 
> *****


Every woman wants something different from every other woman. That makes things more difficult for both genders!

One of the better bits of advice I have heard is "notice the women who notice you". Those would be women who might find you attractive. Attraction is not enough, but it does make a good starting point!


----------



## Farmer Dave (Jan 1, 2003)

Terri said:


> One of the better bits of advice I have heard is "notice the women who notice you". Those would be women who might find you attractive. Attraction is not enough, but it does make a good starting point!



My experiences have been, the women who are attracted to me are not the ones I'm attracted to...and vise versa apparently. 


*****


----------



## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Woman (and conversely men) are like a smorgesbord. That unlabeled dish might not necessarily look appealing, but once you get a taste, look out. If you never tried, how do you know if you don't like it?


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

I think the better question for you Dave is what are YOU looking for in a woman? Figure that one out then BE that guy.

For me personally, a man has to be capable of the friends first thing based on mutual trust and respect. He needs to be able to state what he wants. It gets exhausting being a Circus Psychic, and so does double-mindedness.


----------



## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

Farmer Dave said:


> My experiences have been, the women who are attracted to me are not the ones I'm attracted to...and vise versa apparently.
> 
> 
> *****


*SIGH*!!! Isn't that the way of it? Darnitt!


----------



## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

My opinion on this is that there are some questions in life that simply aren't worth asking. The reason is that there just aren't good, or at least acceptable, answers to the person doing the asking. "Why don't you like me the way I like you?" or variations on the same is one such question when you think about it. There's just no answer that's going to be satisfactory, and the answers you do get will simply add to the frustration you feel.


----------



## Farmer Dave (Jan 1, 2003)

mickm said:


> How long ya been divorced, Dave? Sounds like your in the all women are nutts , and I hear ya.


A lifetime ago!


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Farmer Dave said:


> The point of this thread is to *get a viewpoint on how women think when choosing who or who not to date*. I'm 61, divorced and STILL don't know what women want and most of the time I believe they don't know either. They say one thing and mean something else...are completely illogical in their actions. I'm just looking for a little insight into a womans mindset.
> 
> 
> *****


All women are different.
Some gals just wana have fun. Not looking for long term commitment.
Some gals want a long term commitment, security.
Some gals (dare I say a majority) like to play games.

Decide what YOU want (long term / marriage / just some fun-friendly companionship) then once you have pinned down what YOU want.....
Ask the question "what kind of a woman like _______ (fill in your wants)"


----------



## ErikaMay (Feb 28, 2013)

Farmer Dave said:


> The point of this thread is to get a viewpoint on how women think when choosing who or who not to date. I'm 61, divorced and STILL don't know what women want and most of the time I believe they don't know either. They say one thing and mean something else...are completely illogical in their actions. I'm just looking for a little insight into a womans mindset.
> 
> 
> *****


From the day a girl is born is taught, "Be nice! If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all!" We are taught not to be aggressive or assertive...or to actively go after men. Women arn't able to say what they mean for fear of being labled mean, a *****, a ----, ect. So a woman may say she wants one thing....but may not feel like the can say what they *really* want. Or even admit it to themselves. Thus many women say they want one thing but do something else. Even telling a guy they have no chance: most women can't say anything more than "we're just friends." Really, if they were being honest it would come out like, "Dude, there is no way in hell I could ever want or enjoy sex with you. you have no chance. I like you emotionally, but there is zero physical attraction. Deal with it." It would be more "honest" but would make you feel really bad, right? So they say, "We're just friends" There are lots of cases and reasons for women to say one thing and mean another. 

----, I'm at the point where I just want some fun sex (which frankly I've never had and it would be nice after dealing with sexual assault to kinda regain some control over my sexuality and my body, yaknowwhatimean?), but if I openly admitted that I'd be seen as a ---- thats open for business and the kinds of guys who'd be talking to me all the sudden? *shudder* So I just say, "oh yeah, I'm looking for a long term relationship." I mean, I AM looking for that...but man...it'd be nice to have a few fun nights. But I don't want to be a "----"...so I probably wont do it even it i get the chance. 

Point is: women have mental, physical, emotional and social drives pushing them to say one thing and act another way. You may think it "illogical" but there is reason behind it. 

Why are women attracted to jerks? Its not the jerks they are attracted to: its the confidence those jerks have. Seriously, confidence in a man can make or break attraction. last night I went to a show and the guitarist was the polar opposite of what i like physically...but he was so confident in his playing and singing he was way cute. There I met a farmer who seemed nice...but zero assertiveness. Wasn't very attractive, although he was physically cute. Partly because we have a drive to mate with alphas and confidence and assertiveness are alpha traits. Who tend to exude confidence and assertiveness? 

Jerks. 

I mean, not all confident men are jerks and not all jerks are confident, but there is some fair overlap.

To review:
Women may feel unable to say what they want to so will say something they think will make the other person happy. Maybe it will stop when women are allowed to be mean and assertive? I'm speaking honestly...would you prefer women to talk like this or to be indirect like they usually are? 

Women are attracted to confidence and assertiveness. You too can be attractive by really, truely being happy with yourself and asserting your needs!


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

We are all talking in circles.

I understand you like confident, and assertive men, Erika. I have been told that by many women.

I think you might find that sometimes that assertiveness, hides a lot of insecurities.

To review,

Guys can be happy with themselves, without being assertive. 

Go watch that farmer do something he is comfortable with. It's not as sexy as playing guitar, but I bet it is more valuable in the big scheme.


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I could write as much as you have EK about why men ARENT assertive.
The jerks, and the lucky guys, are the way they are cause the first few girls they were attracted to, returned the feelings, which gave them the practice with girls, and the courage, and ability to have that assertive confidence you speak of.

The rest of US, however, got more or less, told what you said, which boils down into (drop dead), and that blunted our confidence, so that, we were ready for defeat when, next time it came.

Being ready for defeat, BEFORE IT CAME, blunted some of the pain when it DID come.

I dont suppose that a confident guy could be made to be like us, AND LIKELY, none of us could be made to be like them. Thats the way it is. I wasnt born this way, I was made this way

You women give sage advice, which runs like this.

Well, If she dosent respond to her, her loss, look elsewhere
Well, If she is just keeping you around for a shoulder to cry on, Look elsewhere
Well, IF she wants another man in her life besides you, look elsewhere
Well, If she cant be with you without wanting to get drunk/drugged, look elsewhere
Well, if shes not interested in farming/gardening/homesteading, look elsewhere
Well, If she dosent seem to want to ever have sex, look elsewhere
Well, if she seems rude to you, look elsewhere.

I could go on, but to get to my point.
Likely, a guy puts in some emotional spirit into these relationships, and a rebuff gets registered in his mind. He dosent know why he keeps getting rebuffed, but he knows it must be his fault, since he goes to school/works with guys who are doing just fine, and constantly bragging about doing just fine constantly. Hes right, it is his fault, but not for the reasons he surmises. He thinks its his fault cause of his actions, financial abilities, clothes,hair, ect, ect. AND, that may have alot to do with it.

WHY ITS HIS FAULT, is cause he has set himself up for defeat BEFORE he even meets her for a/the date. The same way a woman can (supposedly) tell when a guy has had sex, (so they say), She can tell when hes defeatist, and its a turnoff.


----------



## Farmer Dave (Jan 1, 2003)

ErikaMay said:


> Even telling a guy they have no chance: most women can't say anything more than "we're just friends." Really, if they were being honest it would come out like, "Dude, there is no way in hell I could ever want or enjoy sex with you. you have no chance. I like you emotionally, but there is zero physical attraction. Deal with it." It would be more "honest" but would make you feel really bad, right? So they say, "We're just friends"



Truthfully, I'd much rather have a woman be blunt, tell me: "Dude, there is no way in hell I could ever want or enjoy sex with you. you have no chance. I like you emotionally, but there is zero physical attraction. Deal with it." then to beat around the bush and lead me on. Guys don't pick up on subtleties like women do, we don't take hints, they simply go over our heads. Tell us right out front so we get where you're coming from so we both can move on.


*****


----------



## Farmer Dave (Jan 1, 2003)

FarmboyBill said:


> I could write as much as you have EK about why men ARENT assertive.
> The jerks, and the lucky guys, are the way they are cause the first few girls they were attracted to, returned the feelings, which gave them the practice with girls, and the courage, and ability to have that assertive confidence you speak of.
> 
> The rest of US, however, got more or less, told what you said, which boils down into (drop dead), and that blunted our confidence, so that, we were ready for defeat when, next time it came.
> ...





I hear ya...FBB. I believe if 90% of the women I asked out in my lifetime said yes instead of no or leading me on in some way, I'd be a h*ll of a LOT more aggressive and assertive with them. But after time and time again of being shot down , I just come to expect it after almost 50 years of asking women out.


*****


----------



## WhyNot (Jun 21, 2011)

Woah....Erika....I'm so sorry. Sounds like you might need to go to a place that is like the place that I was last night. Seriously. PM me if you want to know.


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

I think ErikaMay and I were raised by the same wolves. Unfortunately that conditioning can get us stuck in victim mode if we don't bust out, assertively set boundaries on others and, heaven forbid, get called a B. 
Saying NO does not come naturally to some women, many have elaborate constructs to protect themselves from having to SAY it in one word.

But guys c'mon, do some of the heavy lifting in pursuing and creating the chemistry with the woman you want! Stop leaving it to the jerks, who seem to put a lot of effort into creating attraction. We don't want the jerks.

A few months ago I dropped my kid at youth group and went to the Bar & Grill to kill a few hours until she was done. Ordered a big burger a fries to split with her, a tall low alcohol drink and positioned myself for optimal People Watching. There were a lot of Mutt & Jeff teams coming in that night.

So the one I ended up goofing off with and who was creating that spark of "chemistry" was not the one I was attracted to. The guy had Red Flags, but he was up in my space saying all the right masculine things, displaying his raw masculine power assuring me he could meet all my feminine needs. I darn near wanted to have sex with the guy. 

Truth is I liked his friend, the tall quiet one who wouldn't answer questions with more than 3 words. I considered him the more likely compatible relationship material. It would take a lot of WORK on my part to get to know the quiet friend. I don't want to WORK, I don't want to pursue and I don't want to lead the dance.


----------



## Mooselover (May 4, 2009)

Go watch that farmer do something he is comfortable with. It's not as sexy as playing guitar, but I bet it is more valuable in the big scheme.[/QUOTE]

OMG....farmers! that's my weakness. farmers are the ultimate in sexy!!!!


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Guys suck!

Women suck!

It's your fault!

Ya'll would understand better if you would just agree with me!


Women, you know how guys are. They like women, even guys who like women for one reason, like women.

Don't ya think they would change, if they could?


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

mickm said:


> Guys suck!
> 
> Women suck!
> 
> ...


I think when you fall into the mindset that everybody sucks and blame everyone else, your suckiness vibe drives everyone away like a skunk. Nobody else can change that for you but yourself. If it doesn't work, do something different.

Even guys who like guys like women who aren't sucky.

Sucky people just suck! Nobody likes the life sucked out of them.


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

My point was we are arguing in a circle.

Women say it's ped's fault, men say it's women's. The truth is in the middle.

Trust me, many guys would like to be more assertive with women, it just ain't in them and if it ever was, it might have been beat out.. It don't mean they are not good guys, and competent at many other things, just not conversation with women.


----------



## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Suck is in the eye of beholder :teehee:


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Maybe Ernest can add some clarity


----------



## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

Talk to me, no double entendre' please. My DH wasn't the sexiest guy on earth at first glance but I sensed the rock solid strength in him. The laugh crinkles around his eyes did it for me. He was a gentle man, just what I needed in my life. If he hadn't made the effort to talk to me and build a friendship over the years we never would have gotten together. I'm so glad he did put himself out there...not in an 'in your face' way. But he was consistent so I knew there was substance there. 

When we had children, he was in the thick of it. Changing diapers and helping in every way...extremely attractive


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Well I ain't arguing and it only goes in circles when you can't step out of your pain, choose healing and seek change. Many questions were asked.

What is a REAL man? 
One who displays more masculine characteristics than I. The last thing I want to be is a spineless jellyfish so a man can feel secure.

What do women want?
Women want men who make them feel safe and secure and inspire confidence. We are looking for men who are emotionally available, who are good at offering and giving hugs without turning into a sexual thing or saying something stupid because you're uncomfortable with physical contact without sex.

I think all of here have been hurt, betrayed, stabbed, had our hearts ripped out and stomped. We can't measure everyone we meet by the douchebags who hurt us. Biggest relationship repellent is FEAR and NEGATIVITY. I see a lot of FEAR. When I talk to men and see their fear, I cut it short for their comfort zone. He can be an awesomely nice guy, but overcoming his fear is on him, not me. Not my dragon to slay. Chasing him is only gonna make him wonder what's wrong with me.

Thing is Mick, if you can't have a conversation with a woman, how will you ever maintain a relationship with one? Expect one to walk up snap a ring in your nose and lead you around?

Learn to talk with women. Practice, practice, practice. It's just CONVERSATION. Talk to the old ladies at the check stands and see how they respond to you. If you creep them out, adjust your style. The important thing is to get comfortable with having conversations with the opposite sex in a way that shows you are a safe person.


----------



## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

Laura said:


> Well I ain't arguing and it only goes in circles when you can't step out of your pain, choose healing and seek change. Many questions were asked.
> 
> What is a REAL man?
> One who displays more masculine characteristics than I. The last thing I want to be is a spineless jellyfish so a man can feel secure.
> ...


Right on! Post of the day!


----------



## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

Farmer Dave said:


> .... Guys don't pick up on subtleties like women do, we don't take hints, they simply go over our heads. Tell us right out front so we get where you're coming from so we both can move on.
> 
> 
> *****


 
This reminds me of the thread about "Should she call him". Guys can't read minds, and are generally poor on picking up vague hints that some women seem to think of as huge flashing billboards of interest and intent. If your upbringing or sense of propriety keeps you from making any overt moves towards a man, expect to sit at home alone a lot, or whatever one does when they don't get asked out or talked to. I'm generally not shy about talking to women, but don't often ask them out unless they make it clear they are interested in some way. The truly frustrating ones say they'd like to go out, but come up with numerous excuses why they can't, until its finally clear you should give up. To me, that's simply dishonest, and I lose any respect for a woman that does that. The other weird thing (to men, it may not seem weird to women) is when asked out, a woman says no when they really meant yes, then doesn't understand why they aren't asked out again by that guy. That's a truly weird mind game. Sorry, but there's no other way to explain it. I've heard some women explain it as "wanting to be pursued", but to me and most guys it simply sounds like stalking on the part of a man that pursues someone that refused them, or a mental issue on the part of one that "wants to be pursued". When we see other guys doing it to a woman we like (as a freind, sister, or whatever), we want to ambush them in a dark alley with a baseball bat for being a jerk. There may in fact be cases where persistance is worthwhile, but in the majority of cases, I think not, based on life experience.


----------



## Farmer Dave (Jan 1, 2003)

Malamute said:


> The truly frustrating ones say they'd like to go out, but come up with numerous excuses why they can't, until its finally clear you should give up. To me, that's simply dishonest, and I lose any respect for a woman that does that. That's a truly weird mind game.



Frustrating are the women who can't give you a definite "yes" or "no" when asked out. Instead I get a "I'll let you know" or a "maybe" which after awhile I came to realize it means "NO". This is a perfect example of what I was saying in an earlier post..."Guys don't pick up on subtleties like women do, we don't take hints, they simply go over our heads."

I agree with Malamute. This is nothing more than mind games, and the women who say they hate guys that play mind games are more likely than not the ones that are playing mind games themselves but don't seem to realize it as such when they do it.


*****


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Im wondering, IF the guys who play the games FD is talking about, get away with it cause, since women play them, the women accept it when guys do it.
I dont know how many guys do it. Ive never been asked out, and am not likely to be, so I cant say, by my past what I do/how Id do.
Im pert near positive I would answer such with a pretty resounding no, BUT, I dont know


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Well thing is, I don't have I problem talking to women. In fact, I am a regular cunning linguist! How ever, I am not the best at making the first move!

I was more refering to many guys I know, who can almost carry on a conversation. They just might be a little shy at first!






Laura said:


> Well I ain't arguing and it only goes in circles when you can't step out of your pain, choose healing and seek change. Many questions were asked.
> 
> What is a REAL man?
> One who displays more masculine characteristics than I. The last thing I want to be is a spineless jellyfish so a man can feel secure.
> ...


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Malamute said:


> This reminds me of the thread about "Should she call him". Guys can't read minds, and are generally poor on picking up vague hints that some women seem to think of as huge flashing billboards of interest and intent. If your upbringing or sense of propriety keeps you from making any overt moves towards a man, expect to sit at home alone a lot, or whatever one does when they don't get asked out or talked to.* I'm generally not shy about talking to women, but don't often ask them out unless they make it clear they are interested in some way*.


That explains a lot.
I am pretty loud, bold and up front.
Example: Had a 4 top of men last night in the bar. They had been there for a few hours. Not wasted, but they were feeling ok. I had not brought them drinks all night, as they belonged to the other bartender on duty (male). But when they wanted to leave, he was busy so I presented the bill. 
He asked "where have you been all night" 
I said: "right here, I ran into your chair about 30 times!" (laugh)
He said "oh the aggressive type, are you irish" 
I said "German Irish, which makes me mean AND crazy" (big laughs) 
He said "well now that sounds you know how to have fun". 
I said "Back in my younger days I was a pretty good time, but I am mellowing with age" and I walked back to the bar. 
THIS GUY all night, was quiet as a church mouse.
Some chick 1/2 in the bag wandered over to their table about 45 prior to me picking up the check, and he was still pretty quite.

I think a lot of guys get the 'wrong impression' from me, because I am quick to banter back and forth and laugh out loud at the top of my lungs (NOT feminine at all!!) I love men.....I love laughing with them, watching sports with them, talking life with them, whatever.....I just relate to them because I am not a quintessential 'girl'.

(BTW, he tipped me 42.00 on a 135.00 tab.....nice)



> The truly frustrating ones say they'd like to go out, but come up with numerous excuses why they can't, until its finally clear you should give up. To me, that's simply dishonest, and *I lose any respect for a woman that does that*.


And you should. That is deception and a crappy thing to do.
(One of many reasons, I prefer the company of men



> The other weird thing (to men, it may not seem weird to women) is when asked out, a woman says no when they really meant yes, then doesn't understand why they aren't asked out again by that guy. That's a truly weird mind game. Sorry, but there's no other way to explain it.


It's a stupid head game that men should never bite on.
If she can get away with that game, trust me, she has a bag FULL of them.



> I've heard some women explain it as "wanting to be pursued", but to me and most guys it simply sounds like stalking on the part of a man that pursues someone that refused them, or a mental issue on the part of one that "wants to be pursued".


I think women like this have diva issues. THEY want the spot light on them so they can tell all their friends how SPECIAL THEY are.
Gag.



> When we see other guys doing it to a woman we like (as a freind, sister, or whatever), we want to ambush them in a dark alley with a baseball bat for being a jerk. There may in fact be cases where persistance is worthwhile, but in the majority of cases, I think not, based on life experience.


My daughters bf brings her flowers, because she loves them and he adores her.
She cooks him his favorite meals when he comes over, because he loves her cookin, and she loves his company.
I think this is healthy. 

I think it's sick and twisted when one (woman or man) does all this insane 'pursuit' while the other just soaks it up and over inflates their ego.

I have raised my kids to be UP FRONT....STRAIGHT UP honest.
Folks won't know what to do with them, but at the end of the day, my kids know they were upfront and honest.
No airs, no false pretenses, no bull snot.

I am so with you Malamute.
The games women play are hideous.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

A "real man" is a real person, just like we ladies are.

They are, however, MUCH better lookin! LOL!:thumb:


----------



## CntryDaydreamer (Mar 7, 2013)

Farmer Dave~ It sounds to me that it's not a matter that you not a real man that is the issue, but that she was not over the ex. She was working through her feelings and issues by ranting crying to you. Maybe she didn't have any friends female or otherwise to complain to or they were just tired of listening to her. Or it is easier to talk to someone she doesn't have to see face to face.

Once you have heard all that she may feel to embarrassed to have a relationship and move on to another guy, sort of like a rebound relationship. Why she jumped into dating before she had worked through all of the emotional gunk that was on left behind by her last relationship.

I have went on dates with guys who did this. It's not attractive to me, but I hear guys getting into relations with women who are like that because they are "the hero's" and "save them".


----------



## Farmer Dave (Jan 1, 2003)

CntryDaydreamer said:


> Farmer Dave~ It sounds to me that it's not a matter that you not a real man that is the issue, *but that she was not over the ex. She was working through her feelings and issues by ranting crying to you. Maybe she didn't have any friends female or otherwise to complain to or they were just tired of listening to her. Or it is easier to talk to someone she doesn't have to see face to face.*
> 
> Once you have heard all that she may feel to embarrassed to have a relationship and move on to another guy, sort of like a rebound relationship. Why she jumped into dating before she had worked through all of the emotional gunk that was on left behind by her last relationship.



BINGO - For the first six months I put up with her crying and bitching about her ex boyfriend until I made it clear that I won't listen to it anymore. Then she started bitching and moaning about the people she works with and her family members. She definitely has emotional problems. She was seeing a therapist for a few months when I first met her because of her ex. I tried helping her get over the ex hoping she would eventually have feelings for me...but that didn't happen and never will, so I got over it. She is still on POF and searching for the next jerk to fall head over hills for.


*****


----------



## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> ... I think a lot of guys get the 'wrong impression' from me, because I am quick to banter back and forth....


 
This is part of what I'm talking about when I say I'm not shy about talking to women, but dont ask them out unless they seem interested. I like talking, joking, bantering or whatever. Unfortuantely, many women seem to think that anyone they smile at, are nice to or talk to in any way is going to come on to them. I don't, I just enjoy the exchange,...unless they seem more than just being friendly.

One other aspect that many men may suffer from, is thinking they'll make a decent impression without coming on too strong at first, then get to know a woman a bit by "seeing her around", or ask her out the next time they see them. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. That next time may not happen. If one is truly impressed and interested, that first time is the moment to ask. No guarantee things will progress or go anywhere, but if you don't ask, there may never be another time. The flip side of that is, when you "see someone around" a couple times, it can dim your desire to ask them out, and make you glad you didn't. I've experienced both situations.


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Malamute said:


> This is part of what I'm talking about when I say I'm not shy about talking to women, but dont ask them out unless they seem interested. I like talking, joking, bantering or whatever. Unfortuantely, many women seem to think that anyone they smile at, are nice to or talk to in any way is going to come on to them. I don't, I just enjoy the exchange,...unless they seem more than just being friendly.
> 
> One other aspect that many men may suffer from, is thinking they'll make a decent impression without coming on too strong at first, then get to know a woman a bit by "seeing her around", or ask her out the next time they see them. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. That next time may not happen. If one is truly impressed and interested, that first time is the moment to ask. No guarantee things will progress or go anywhere, but if you don't ask, there may never be another time. The flip side of that is, when you "see someone around" a couple times, it can dim your desire to ask them out, and make you glad you didn't. I've experienced both situations.


I don't think most men and women intentionally play mind games. I think they truly do not know their own minds. I think this even applies to those who appear to intentionally hurt others. Yeah, there are those sick predators of both sexes who intentionally set hooks to inflict pain.
That's why both men and women display fear when interacting with the opposite sex. We want to avoid PAIN and any threats to our safety.

I know guys get overwhelmed with feelings and shut down. They back up and get some space. Mixed message. What I didn't know about myself is I do it too until I did it last week. 
The mandolin player and I have been making eyes for almost a year. We've had some great group conversations. The first time I saw him he was with a woman but dancing with all the other women having a blast, and my date was a dud. The woman came in my store last week, we bantered, then he came in and stood next to her. They both informed me they hadn't been a couple for many months, he was free, single, looking and interested. 

I had no response to that. I really, really, really LIKE the guy! Totally overwhelmed, I cast my eyes down and babbled something stupid. It appears I blew him off. I think. I have to change my message to him again. I feel like an idiot.

Moral of the story, you can't measure a person by one incident. Please. :ashamed: We are ALL capable of sending the wrong signal if we get overwhelmed.

I know a lot of women with a high degree of FEAR. Men talking to them in casual conversation sets off their jerk alert. They send out a constant signal of STAY AWAY. When they have relationships, they feel victimized by their own lack of boundaries. Why are some men attracted to this? Getting slapped down validates their own belief there are no good women out there?

So Guys, if you want better success finding women who say YES to dates, present yourself as a safe person and offer safe dates. Yes, I know that means different things to different people, but women want men who make them feel safe and secure.

Save all the sexual references, even jokingly for when you actually have a bedroom relationship. They make you look like an axxclown who has no regard to our feelings.

If in your quest to learn more about a woman, or in pursuing her, you get accused of STALKING, choose less fearful women or change your method to ways less threatening. Having men learn my normal routines and where I'll be at what times so they can be in my path is not stalking. Parking in front of my house is stalking. Since the Crowbar Incident, they know to keep it rolling!

What is a Safe Date? 
Sure some women will jump on the back of your bike or in your truck 5 minutes after meeting you and take off to Reno for a great time! I knew one wonderful couple who did that and were married for 60 years and are now buried together, dying 30 days apart.

First and second dates I say Yes to are meet at, and enjoy each other's companionship at local public places and events or with large groups of people present. Go fishing on the river, or surf casting.

First and second dates which are automatic NO, getting in your pickup and driving to the other side of the county, you coming to my house, me going to your house alone, going out on the ocean in your boat. These are things to do after I know you and we have established trust and respect.

Yes, I know my boundaries are set wider than most, but they haven't hindered my social and dating life at all. Sure some men don't like them. Whatever, move on. There is no void. I have serious responsibilities to a DDwD. Her safety and security, both emotional and physical are most important. She needs to know I am safe when I date so I date by the same rules I applied to my daughters.

Yeah, Mal, what is that about when we have a great first conversation with a man that goes deep quickly into WOW and ends with a loose agreement for same time, same place next week. Then POOF? Is it overwhelmed Freeze-up?


----------



## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

yeah, the mixed message. I was thinking about two people the other day, one had told me he felt very deeply about me, then backed off--he said really great things, but with the backing off(going back and forth) I never could trust what he said as does he really feel that way...or at least consistently(something like that). The other person has never expressed his feelings about me to me, but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt what they are. 

I still care very much for the first person, but understand better, and know how to go about it so it's healthy for me, he is still a friend I care about.

men are fun, I really mean that


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Good post Laura, and good informatqion !

Believe it or not, guys panic and have fears, too. Sometimes the woman we would like to dpeak to the most; is exactlly the one ya cant.

THAT must be universal!


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Thank you Mick, that means a lot.

Yeah everybody freezes up and chokes at the most inopportune times. All we can do is fall back, regroup and laugh at ourselves Dare to be imperfect and the stress falls away. 

We can't change other people, we can't change our past and what happened to us. We can choose to learn, to heal and to grow from it. We can change ourselves so the sucky sound we hear isn't us.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I have a serious legitimate question......

Some men have said that they would prefer a more aggressive approach FROM the woman, when she is interested.
It is said that men want to know FOR A FACT that she is interested, and it would be best if she stepped up and asked him out of coffee.
Some men have said that it is discouraging / hurtful / (you pick and adjective) to be 'shot down' by women when they ask them out for coffee.
(TO ME: this looks like he wants a sure thing and is not willing to stick his neck out; IE likes things to be easy, effortless)

IT HAS ALSO been said that men really don't like to sit down and divulge deep personal feelings. 
That they have a hard time even thinking about it themselves, much less sharing them with someone else.......

So here's the question:

If a woman is bold enough to put the first step forward, and invite a man to coffee or a movie..........they carry on and begin spending a lot of time together, they get married.
NOW the man will not talk about what is bothering him (when something clearly is) because he says that he's not comfortable talking about it.

So, he's not comfortable making the first move.....so she does.
So, he's not comfortable talking about what is bothering him........even when she is 100% supportive, available, and wants to help.

1. What does this man REALLY want?
2. And is it fair that the woman has to do all the work, while he hides behind his excuse of "it's not comfortable" for him?

Please, don't T off on me.....it's an honest to God serious question I am really trying to understand.
oxoxoxoxo for helping!!


----------



## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

@LZ5:

I don't have a comprehensive answer to your question, but I think I can offer a little insight.

One of the big problems with men and feelings is that we spend most of our life, in various circumstances, and for various reasons, is some combination of not being able or allowed to deal with them. Male endeavors traditionally make little room for, or even acknowledge the existence of feelings. Masculinity, in our culture at least, is more about doing than being or feeling. In sports, the military, the outdoors, and the traditonal workplace are also centered around actively not feeling.

In reality, of course, feelings happen anyway, so in practice, all these feelings are put in abeyance until there are simply too many to continue to do so, or some appropriate opportunity presents itself. By the time this happens, a man is usually well into adulthood, and very possibly a senior citizen. By this time, he simply doesn't know how - he doesn't know the words and doesn't even have names for the feelings. Self-expression in any form, whether it's art, language, or emotion represents a skill, and while some may have a natural aptitude for it, most people have to develop it through practice.

In my own case, the repository of emotions-in-abeyance built up to the point that, in my mid-thirties, dealing with a serious medical diagnosis, I broke. In the aftermath, while I still don't have much of a vocabulary for it, I learned how to process and 'deal with' emotions. My experiences since then are somewhat conflicted though - first, I learned that many emotions, like many thoughts, are just mental noise and not worth the trouble of trying to express; second, I learned that (some? most? just the ones I've known?) women, don't actively want to deal with men's emotions except on certain occasions and in certain circumstances, so much as they want a man who is able to deal with _their_ emotions properly. Few persons of either gender really like a weepy man.


----------



## Farmer Dave (Jan 1, 2003)

NoClue said:


> @LZ5:
> ...second, I learned that (some? most? just the ones I've known?) women, don't actively want to deal with men's emotions except on certain occasions and in certain circumstances, so much as they want a man who is able to deal with _their_ emotions properly. Few persons of either gender really like a weepy man.



This has been my experience too. Most women I've dated believe that if a man is open with his feelings then that's not their idea of a real man.


*****


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Not saying you have to do all the work. just saying dont be afraid to ask a guy to coffee.

I dont know how many times a female friend has told me a women was (as in past tense) was interested in me, but i was clueless. Usually because i thought she was out of my league.

Guys dont get subliminsl messages, i dont know how much i can stress this. we also think that when you say you are ok, you are ok. when you say no, you mean no.

Which leads to talking about feelings. i for one always make it clear how i feel about something. now if you dont like how i feel, that doesnt mean i didnt talk about it. i am not likely to change how i feel. thsts why they call them "feelings". They can not always be rationally explained.


I really shouldnt say how men are, because i only know how this man is. we are all different.








Laura Zone 5 said:


> I have a serious legitimate question......
> 
> Some men have said that they would prefer a more aggressive approach FROM the woman, when she is interested.
> It is said that men want to know FOR A FACT that she is interested, and it would be best if she stepped up and asked him out of coffee.
> ...


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

yup. Tho ive never encountered it that I remember, and I suppose I have once or twice, but dont remember it

Laura, I think youve combined 2 things that arent compatable, at least to men.
The fact that a man wants to be sure a woman is interested in him BEFORE he makes more fo a fool of himself than he already likely has in even getting her to notice him, has nothing to do with a man keeping his emotions to himself.

I would like for a woman to let me know that shes interested, and that may only mean, 2 more sentences beyond what would be a normal, hi, how are you, deal. IF a man KNOWS a woman IS definatly interested, hes going to not hold back his thoughts and emotions in planning things to do, or things to say to her.
A man whos not sure of a woman will hold back. You dont feed all the feed amount to 20 cows, if only one comes in. Less said is better, if a man is walking on egg shells, blindfolded, knowing theres a cliff on either side of him, and the egg shells are laying on a 1 by, on edge. Thats what it feels like for a insecure man AROUND WOMEN he has just met.
Compare that to the feelings of a guy who KNOWS that shes definatly interested, That shes continually responding favorably to whatever he says, That shes offering her thoughts to his thoughts, That shes laughing and giving off the feeling that shes happy, that shes feeling fine being near you, That shes NOT judgeing your every word, your every sentence.

The attitude of the woman makes all the difference in makeing either a secure or insecure man.

Theres also a right way to end a meeting/relationship/dateing, and a way to dump someone. There NOT the same, AND they end up leaveing entirely different feelings/emotions in a guy.


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

I aldo want to stress, i can not accurstely exspress on this board, what kinda guy would be offended by a woman approaching him.

Cant imagine any woman wanting that guy anyway.

Its not that difficult ladies. Some men still respect women. want to treat them well, and not offend them


----------



## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

mickm said:


> *Not saying you have to do all the work. just saying dont be afraid to ask a guy to coffee*.
> 
> I dont know how many times a female friend has told me a women was (as in past tense) was interested in me, but i was clueless. Usually because i thought she was out of my league.
> 
> ...


 
Two good points. It highlights some of the differences betwen how men and women think. LZ5 asked a question about the inference of a woman asking a man to go out, then extrapolated it into something of more meaning. It seems like an honest question, but the line of thought isnt what most men would have strung together from the simple starting point of a woman asking them out.

Guys don't get much in the subliminal thought department, nor do they usually get it when a woman is interested unless she gives some very definate indications. Women seem to think it belittles them or makes them less wholesome if they take any initiative in a relationship. Guys get tired of asking women out with little positive return, so often don't much after a while, or at the risk of coming across as a womanizer, or getting a reputation for a woman chaser. We can sometimes pick up on some clues, like someone that smiles and likes to talk, and doesn't make excuses to break away or seem uncomfortale when they meet casually, but much more than that level of perceptriveness is asking a bit much of most men. Sorry, we're mostly just stuck like this.


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

While it's true most of us women have little interest in men with chronic emotional diarrhea. Men who can process his feelings and express them, even shedding tears, he is valuable to some of us. Correct me if I'm wrong Guys, but don't you tend to stuff them down and only share your true feelings with women who show they can deal with their own feelings without spinning out?

Isn't this the relationship we all truly seek, a safe person who can handle their own emotions, and yours too? Do men want women who can handle them sharing even their "scary" emotions? Do you know any women you trust enough to share these things with?



> The attitude of the woman makes all the difference in makeing either a secure or insecure man.


Sorry Bill, not my job to "make" you anything. Your sense of insecurity was formed long before I came along and it's on you to adjust your functionality.

My job is to be a safe person and seek safe people to be in my life.

Hint to women: Men work through their emotions alone in their heads while doing something with their hands. He needs space for this. He will talk when he is ready and feels safe with you. He does NOT want to talk it to death and examine every nuance of every possible feeling like a girl. You know what they say about trying to teach a pig to sing.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

SOME men would rather not talk about feelings at all, and I have known a couple of them.

SOME women see the expression of very much emotion at ALL as not being masculine. Actually, they often know what their husbands are feeling without him saying anything at all.

And, I have noticed that these folk tend to marry each other. 

Then again, more and more often, a man is likely to say "I hate that", or "That bugs me", or whatever, and I find that it makes communication so MUCH! easier! But that's just me. Some men really would rather not talk about feelings, and some women would rather they did not talk about feelings also!


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Terri said:


> SOME men would rather not talk about feelings at all, and I have known a couple of them.
> 
> SOME women see the expression of very much emotion at ALL as not being masculine. Actually, they often know what their husbands are feeling without him saying anything at all.
> 
> ...


You're so right, Terri, some men would rather not talk about their feelings, but they're still expressing them. Given enough time and space, they will formulate a few words to put in a nutshell to share, if they believe their woman can handle them.

Having rode through serious life traumas with a man and seeing how he worked through his emotions with physical actions, expressing his feelings in ways that didn't use words, and with physical touch for weeks before saying the words, "That was the most traumatic thing I've ever experienced, I don't know how I will recover and I don't ever want to experience anything like it again." 25 years later, he still expresses his feelings over it through action, but we will never talk about it. We don't need to.

I've seen many men cry. I have cried with them. I don't think less of them. It seems some are more uncomfortable around me after they recover. Perhaps they perceive incorrectly I may think them less of them?

On the other hand, xh with borderline personality disorder did nothing BUT endlessly talk about his fears and his feelings and express emotions all over the place to the exclusion of everybody and everything else. Yeah, stuff it, dude and go do something productive. 5 hours of Emotional Masturbation is not masculine when we need the Man of the House to deal with a neighbor who threatened my daughter.


----------



## Terri in WV (May 10, 2002)

Laura said:


> Hint to women: Men work through their emotions alone in their heads while doing something with their hands. He needs space for this. He will talk when he is ready and feels safe with you. He does NOT want to talk it to death and examine every nuance of every possible feeling like a girl. You know what they say about trying to teach a pig to sing.


Hint to men: some women are like this too.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Laura said:


> On the other hand, xh with borderline personality disorder did nothing BUT endlessly talk about his fears and his feelings and express emotions all over the place to the exclusion of everybody and everything else.


EEP.

Was he actually diagnosed, or are you guessing? 

One sign of borderline is that the people who have it often do best if they live in a turbulent world. And, they frequently create such drama, because to them it is more comfortable than being thoughtful.


----------



## Guest (Apr 5, 2013)

I don't find it unmanly to shed a tear once in awhile. Some guy who needs to sniffle daily or weekly OTOH probably needs a mommy..


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Terri said:


> EEP.
> 
> Was he actually diagnosed, or are you guessing?
> 
> One sign of borderline is that the people who have it often do best if they live in a turbulent world. And, they frequently create such drama, because to them it is more comfortable than being thoughtful.


Yes, he was diagnosed BPD 3 months before he left. He chose not to seek treatment, it was all my fault ya know. Yes, everything was Drama and he was very destructive. Once I knew BPD, it all made sense and became predictable. 

It's why DD and I seek peace and safety, and I am seeking a man who chooses healing. No more infantile Drama Kings.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Laura, he will have the life that he builds.

The newer therapy for Borderline seems to be effective, but therapy does nothing if the person does not want it.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I don't think I communicated my question correctly.
Let me think about it and then come back and re word it.:doh:


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Terri said:


> Laura, he will have the life that he builds.
> 
> The newer therapy for Borderline seems to be effective, but therapy does nothing if the person does not want it.


 Yup, he's got it! The new wife was all gloating like she won. She didn't know she won the booby prize. :goodjob: Now she's as stressed and sick as I was and he's out of my face. I am happy and so is DD. Unfortunately, very few BPDs choose therapy.

Sorry LZ5 for derailing your questions.


----------



## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I don't think I communicated my question correctly.
> Let me think about it and then come back and re word it.:doh:


 I thought that might be the case, but gave you the best answer I could, even if it wasn't exactly to the question you asked.


----------



## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

Laura said:


> Yes, he was diagnosed BPD 3 months before he left. He chose not to seek treatment, it was all my fault ya know. Yes, everything was Drama and he was very destructive. Once I knew BPD, it all made sense and became predictable.
> 
> It's why DD and I seek peace and safety, and I am seeking a man who chooses healing. No more infantile Drama Kings.


My ex was BPD 2 - diagnosed, but only because I gave her an ultimatum of seek help or get out. She did seek help, and adheres to the prescribed treatment, but she never got over the fact that I gave her an ultimatum, and once she had her act together, left. I never bothered to count the number of ultimata she gave me, but in real life, what's good for the gander is not necessarily so good for the goose.

I feel your pain though


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Well i re read what ya said, and maybe i am completely misunderstanding it, but....... fro previous comments you have made, it seems like you are wanting a simple answer to fix a paticular complex problem. 

i will repeat, all men are not exactlly alike. its been my exsperience that if domeone continudouly refuses to tell you how they feel, its cause you dont want to hear the answer.


As far as guys wanting a sure thing......

I dont think some women understand how many times the average guy gets shot down. how about almost 100% of the time? Heck, i bet i have been shot down over 100 times myself, and i am faaaaaaar from being a player. infact slmost every single time i have taken the initiative, i got a big no thank you! I am dense, but a guy catches on after awhile. if the roles were reversed and women were told no amost every time, wouldnt it eventuslly effect you?


I sm single, so i cant say i have ever been in a succesful relationship, but the longer ones i have been in started with friendships. in the end, it didnt matter who asked who out.







QUOTE=Laura Zone 5;6533073]I have a serious legitimate question......

Some men have said that they would prefer a more aggressive approach FROM the woman, when she is interested.
It is said that men want to know FOR A FACT that she is interested, and it would be best if she stepped up and asked him out of coffee.
Some men have said that it is discouraging / hurtful / (you pick and adjective) to be 'shot down' by women when they ask them out for coffee.
(TO ME: this looks like he wants a sure thing and is not willing to stick his neck out; IE likes things to be easy, effortless)

IT HAS ALSO been said that men really don't like to sit down and divulge deep personal feelings. 
That they have a hard time even thinking about it themselves, much less sharing them with someone else.......

So here's the question:

If a woman is bold enough to put the first step forward, and invite a man to coffee or a movie..........they carry on and begin spending a lot of time together, they get married.
NOW the man will not talk about what is bothering him (when something clearly is) because he says that he's not comfortable talking about it.

So, he's not comfortable making the first move.....so she does.
So, he's not comfortable talking about what is bothering him........even when she is 100% supportive, available, and wants to help.

1. What does this man REALLY want?
2. And is it fair that the woman has to do all the work, while he hides behind his excuse of "it's not comfortable" for him?

Please, don't T off on me.....it's an honest to God serious question I am really trying to understand.
oxoxoxoxo for helping!![/QUOTE]


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Laura, I didnt intend to assume IT being a JOB.
Im saying the attitude that a woman has when a man meets her, creates an attitude in a man he might noght have had before meeting her.
IF this attitude is negative, for WHATEVER reason , AND IF a man happens to run into a few of like minded women, they will QUICKLY transform his idea of meeting women, and what to expect.
I can see where you could see it as some kind of job, 
BUTT,
You women say you dont want weepy, cry babies, insecure, introverts, unable or unwilling to expressing hes emotions, and I can understand that in the reverse of my meeting wqomen like that.
BUTT
Its GENERALLY a womans fault that a majority of men have become such as the above listed.
I dont know a cure or remedy. I think its all in the techneque that a woman has/uses ikn picking and chooseing and dropping, and letting go.

I know that is also true of men. I never could handle letting a girl down easy. The couple times I broke up with somebody, I just quit seeing her. I felt bad about that, but I couldnt handle the emotional distress in letting her down/go easy. Thats why I SELDOM dated, and I married most of those I did. Also why I havnt hadf a date since 91


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I was still dressing, in the 90s like grease/Happy Days. There were a few 50s clubs in Tulsa, and thats where I hung out. I never dated, but acted like I was too cool for one woman, or that I had one and she was working, ect. I didnt want to hit on one and end up not likeing her. I never heard anything about me negitavely, so I guess it worked. ALSO Because I was way older than most there, I suppose they might not found me all that interesting, OR Maybe they thought theyed get shot down themselves. I dont know.


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Okay, okay. I read through LauraZ5's question again 3 times slowly, I think I got it. All I can offer is what Sarge told me he wants. I think it's true of many men.

Sarge told me, "I want to get married because I want sex. I want to eat your good cooking, watch TV and sleep with you. I don't want to work at it because I'm lazy and I don't want a bunch of BS about it. I suck at relationships, that's what the ex-wives tell me, but I'm housebroken, I wash dishes once in awhile, I pick my feet up when you vacuum, and I'm good with children and animals."

Gotta love an honest man.


NoClue, thank you for your understanding. BPD issues are something people don't get unless they experience it themselves. I left the pain behind with the marriage. I am a bit different than most people. Apparently you're not supposed to be laughing your butt off with joy in the back of the church when you tell people your husband left you for another woman. The restoration of my health was rapid. I have another chance at life, I plan to rebuild it wisely.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

> Sarge told me, "I want to get married because I want sex. I want to eat your good cooking, watch TV and sleep with you. I don't want to work at it because I'm lazy and I don't want a bunch of BS about it. I suck at relationships, that's what the ex-wives tell me, but I'm housebroken, I wash dishes once in awhile, I pick my feet up when you vacuum, and I'm good with children and animals."


Laura, is it ok if I am completely horrified at the above statement?

I was ready to re-word my question......until this.

I need an honest poll/opinion please:
The above quoted statement: Is this how MOST men think?


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

mickm said:


> Well i re read what ya said, and maybe i am completely misunderstanding it, but....... fro previous comments you have made, it seems like you are wanting a simple answer to fix a paticular complex problem.
> 
> i will repeat, all men are not exactlly alike. its been my exsperience that if domeone continudouly refuses to tell you how they feel, *its cause you dont want to hear the answer.*


THAT my friend, is a very very interesting statement.
I am all about laying everything out on the table. 
Let's sort through it, and head in a right direction.

Why would someone hold something like that inside?
Especially if the other half is ready and willing to work through it to get to the other side where the green grass grows??
As far as guys wanting a sure thing......



> I dont think some women understand how many times the average guy gets shot down. how about almost 100% of the time? Heck, i bet i have been shot down over 100 times myself, and i am faaaaaaar from being a player. infact slmost every single time i have taken the initiative, i got a big no thank you! I am dense, but a guy catches on after awhile. if the roles were reversed and women were told no amost every time, wouldnt it eventuslly effect you?


Rejection sucks. 
I get that. Trust me, I really do.
I can see what you are saying.



> I sm single, so i cant say i have ever been in a succesful relationship, but the longer ones i have been in started with friendships. in the end, it didnt matter who asked who out.


Thanks for replying, I truly appreciate your input.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

NoClue said:


> I thought that might be the case, but gave you the best answer I could, even if it wasn't exactly to the question you asked.


Thank you!
I am trying to extract information, thinly veiled as a general question, when it really applies to my circumstances right now. Does that make sense? :grin:


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Laura, is it ok if I am completely horrified at the above statement?
> 
> I was ready to re-word my question......until this.
> 
> ...


no, i dont thinj so, but i suppose some do. some get married because society or religion tells tgem they should. 

Lots of different folks, with lots of different answers.


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Thank you!
> I am trying to extract information, thinly veiled as a general question, when it really applies to my circumstances right now. Does that make sense? :grin:



I kinda figured that was it. nobody can tell you how your husbsnd feels other then him. 

if you really want to save your relationship, get some counceling, alone or together. nobody here can help ya. most of us are single ourselves, meaning we cant help ourselves. how could we help you? 

Please dont spend a lot of time trying to understand men. yes, men and women are fifferent, but good people are still good people.

We are all humsn and good people do not try to hurt people who love them. 

I am sorry for the pain you are in. i would not want to be there again for anything.


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Sarge told me, "I want to get married because I want sex. I want to eat your good cooking, watch TV and sleep with you. I don't want to work at it because I'm lazy and I don't want a bunch of BS about it. I suck at relationships, that's what the ex-wives tell me, but I'm housebroken, I wash dishes once in awhile, I pick my feet up when you vacuum, and I'm good with children and animals."


OMG ... I am Sarge! ound:

Well, except for the TV part.


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

In all honesty, I'm not that great with children, either. :hysterical:


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

mickm said:


> I kinda figured that was it. nobody can tell you how your husbsnd feels other then him.


And since he's not talking, not willing to talk, and when he does talk it's not truth, I am trying to feel my way around and see if I can figure something out.



> if you really want to save your relationship, get some counceling, alone or together. nobody here can help ya. most of us are single ourselves, meaning we cant help ourselves. how could we help you?


It's all over but the crying, really. 
It's like watching your 19 year old cat, die of cancer. 
We have done counseling, together, and me alone. He will not go alone, and if he did, he'd lie his arce off, again....
I guess what I am looking for is this:
*Am I being unrealistic, because 'men' are different, but at the core, very similar?*
and
*When he leaves again, do I REALLY want to even THINK about trying this again?* (so far the answer is a huge giant, hades no)



> Please dont spend a lot of time trying to understand men. yes, men and women are fifferent, but good people are still good people.


And bad people are bad people.
This is so true.



> We are all humsn and good people do not try to hurt people who love them.
> 
> I am sorry for the pain you are in. i would not want to be there again for anything.


Mick, I have moved from numb/shock, to deep deep depression and sadness, to white hot anger.......and now I am in the flat line portion of the game.
I'm done. 
You can wipe your muddy poopy boots on the welcome mat so many times before you wear the mat out, and it's useless.
I am tired of being the mat covered in poop.


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Well i wouldnt wish it on anyone. my divorce almost killed me, but it was a shock.

There are good guys out there, just gotta look. just like there are good women. 

We wouldnt want to alk be exactlly the same!


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Laura Zone 5, marriage takes a certain amount of work from both people. 

And, one person cannot do the work for both people: they have to meet you at least partway. Not halfway, no, but PARTWAY! And, it sounds like you have been the only one doing the marriage work!

IMHO.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

So to get back around to the OP's topic:

For me, I would want a more aggressive / forward type man.
I have spent years doing all the work, all the talking, all the everything....
I am ready to be in the passenger seat, and let someone else drive.
Not in a 'ball in chain woman submit' kind of way, but where the man is the lead / head / stronger one.

So I guess that's why I am not too keen on women making the first move.
Oy.


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

I will only say this. I dont "know" either of ya. 

but

two people can not be happy together, if they are not happy alone. meaning dome choose to be unhappy.

My ex felt at the time that i forced her in to an affair. i was working two jobs and still helping with kids. i didnt get to enjoy life at all, i spen too much time just trying to keep a roof over our head. we looked at finances differently. She didnt work and was going to school so every last thing was left to me. it was a burden, and i wasnt happy. it only got worse when she became distant to me. i could handle it when i had her support, but......

She has sense said that she was wrong, and shouldnt have done what she did.....but it was too late.

I can only say that i felt at the time i was doing what i had to, for our family.

I have heard thst men need respect to love and women need attention. i dont know if that is true, but in my case it probably was. i felt under appreciated, so i wasnt happy. she lacked attention, and there is almost always someone willing to give a woman attention.

I dont know if that helps ya. just what happened in my marriage....


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

mickm said:


> I will only say this. I dont "know" either of ya.
> 
> but
> 
> ...


Right now, I am in Philly w/ my youngest and her friend, to watch my son compete in an All Star tournament.
I am beat tired, the schedule is brutal, the drive was 12 hours, I am doing homework inbetween games.......BUT I AM HAVING A BLAST.
Laughing my butt off w/ the girls, laughing my butt off with my boy and his team mate.....actin' silly.....just having a way good time.

No one hanging off my neck sucking the life and fun out of me.
Just having a great time.....

Some choose themselves. 
Nothing on the face of the earth comes before or even close to even with themselves. 
Some people don't have the first clue how to think of someone else, before them selves. 
It's a concept that truly escapes them. 
Self love, self indulgence, self pleasure, self comfort, etc......those are all #1. 
Some people don't have the ability to 'put themselves in someone else's shoes'. (IE: How would *I* like it if *I* were a man getting shot down all the time? 
Well, if I take a second and BE THAT MAN and FEEL THE SHOOT DOWN, I would logically come to the conclusion: That totally sucks. No wonder a lot of men are not more 'aggressive'...their sick of having their feelings stomped on)


Some people want everything done for them.
All effort is put forth by someone else, all the time.
All learning is spoon fed in the form of "here's the answer sheet, fill in the questions when you feel like it".

Mick, I get it. I really do!!


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Oh, i wasnt trying to change your mind, just explaing what happened in my relationship. i can look back, years later, and see it clearly.

I am not saying i wouldnt be an aggressor in the right situation. i am just saying life wears us down.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Amen brother!!


----------



## Guest (Apr 6, 2013)

Just my own two cents...
There's always a bit of truth in stereotypes..just enough to give comedians basis for a good stand-up gig... 
Men are no more standardized in their thinking than we are.

SOME men are emotionally distant... SOME men don't have good communication skills... SOME men are quite skilled at resolving conflict. SOME men are not.
SOME men are thoughtful and considerate. SOME are selfish...

Just as women are not "all" alike, neither are men. Often, the wisest words spoken in a relationship are: "Please help me to understand how you feel."


----------



## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> So to get back around to the OP's topic:
> 
> For me, I would want a more aggressive / forward type man.
> _I have spent years doing all the work, all the talking, all the everything...._
> ...


That's not the only way that works, but I think your later post ("_Well, if I take a second and BE THAT MAN and FEEL THE SHOOT DOWN, I would logically come to the conclusion: That totally sucks. No wonder a lot of men are not more 'aggressive'...their sick of having their feelings stomped on_") reflects some understanding of that. It isn't neccesarily the "shoot down" either. At some point, it becomes a choice of investing some amount of emotional energy into someone, even just choosing to ask them out. I often find myself simply thinking about it, and deciding I dont choose to invest that energy, unless I have some idea they are actually interested, or are compatible with my lifestyle (which can be a larger issue). I find few women are _truly_ interested in living in a cabin 30-some miles from town, and I have _no_ desire to live in town. Simple "dating" can be a large investment of time, money and energy to do what's fairly simple for people that live close to each other. The other aspect is many men are simply oblivious to what a woman is thinking, unless thumped in the center of the forehead, and maybe a note handed to them explaining the situation. Letting them know you're interested gives them the ability to focus on the isssue at hand, rather than thinking about whatever may have occupied their mind before you walked into the picture.

LZ5, I'm sorry for your situation. I didn't know what angle you were approaching this from, and my responses weren't likely helpful specifically to you. I stuck with the generalities to maintain the line of thought in the general thread, but wish you the best in working out your situation.


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

One reason why some people will not or cannot share their personal feelings, and I think this applies to women as well as men, is SHAME. A lot of people can't even put a name on what is going on deep inside themselves, they just feel it briefly, then pave over it and act out to protect it from exposure. If they can't handle it, trust themselves to work through their deep dark secrets and expose it to light, they sure won't trust another person with it no matter how much LOVE there is. 

I think what is uncommon about Sarge's statement to me is not what he wants, but how open he is about what he wants and what he's willing to do for it. There are no games between he and I. We should all be that open and honest about what we want. 

Some of my girlfriends are always telling me if I like a man, I should invite him home and cook him a nice meal. That's how they got their men. That's how I got BPDxh, too. 

Yet these women are always frustrated with their relationships because they're the ones doing all the work. They're doing it ALL, jobs, housework, building a homestead, and taking care of their men. Their husbands and live-in BFs, really nice guys, have what Sarge wants. The only time the men temporarily put effort into the relationships or the chores is when the possibility of their Gravy Train ending is brought to their attention.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Laura said:


> Yet these women are always frustrated with their relationships because they're the ones doing all the work. They're doing it ALL, jobs, housework, building a homestead, and taking care of their men. Their husbands and live-in BFs, really nice guys, have what Sarge wants. *The only time the men temporarily put effort into the relationships or the chores is when the possibility of their Gravy Train ending is brought to their attention*.


Laura, I am in so way jumping on you or being rude....not at all. I appreciate you sharing your insights.

I find the above statement, especially what is in bold, nauseating.
In my mind, what if parents, only invested in their children when they thought their lack of love and attention might be exposed? 
Like what if little johnny decided to go boost a VP because he has been so grossly neglected and ONLY THEN do his parents begin to pay attention to him....not because they actually love him, or are good parents, but to hide the fact that THEY are lousy parents?
That's no way to raise kids.

And what if I only gave my job attention when it looked like I was going to be fired? What kind of employee would I be?

When the time comes, do I need to take out a 'want ad' that clearly spells out "self absorbed cave men need not apply"?

I just can't believe that "most" men are like this. I just can't. Until I have a huge sampling of men that will admit, that this in fact, is true....I just can't believe it.

Malamute, your answers were awesome. I appreciate your thoughts!


----------



## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Nothing wrong with not sharing all your feelings. They are, after all, YOURS, to do with what you wish. And there certainly isn't anything shameful about it either.

LauraZone5 you are safe in your belief that most men are not like described because they are not.


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

No, I'm not saying most men are like this. The men I date are not like this at all. These men are comfortable in the traditional masculine roles. They're willing to be there without me having to bribe them with PIE. They make an effort to get to know me, ask me out, help me when I need it, back me up, play, have fun and have serious discussions. They respect me for not handing out free food, and they bid high to win my goodies at the fundraisers. 

I think my point is when women are willing to do ALL the work, all the accommodating, they will have men willing to let them. We women end up frustrated and exhausted (raise your hands) but what do we do? We do MORE, work HARDER thinking it's somehow going to change him or our situation? NOT! I don't think women even get respected for their efforts in that. It's a sucky place to be as all that work only makes us more emotionally attached to him, it doesn't attach him to us.

You want masculine men willing to step up and initiate? Then step down and let him.


----------



## Terri in WV (May 10, 2002)

Laura said:


> I think my point is when women are willing to do ALL the work, all the accommodating, they will have men willing to let them. We women end up frustrated and exhausted (raise your hands) but what do we do? We do MORE, work HARDER thinking it's somehow going to change him or our situation? NOT! I don't think women even get respected for their efforts in that. It's a sucky place to be as all that work only makes us more emotionally attached to him, it doesn't attach him to us.


Yes, this is what happens when someone ends up marrying a narcissistic person. It's not that you're willing to do all the work so much as you end up doing it all. The more you do, the more they take. It never ends and they expect more until you don't have any more to give.

My hubs was like this and he cured me of the idea of ever living under the same roof with another man. That's why I'm all for the "his and her" house arrangement. We could have fun together and then be at peace in our own places.


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Terri in WV said:


> Yes, this is what happens when someone ends up marrying a narcissistic person. It's not that you're willing to do all the work so much as you end up doing it all. The more you do, the more they take. It never ends and they expect more until you don't have any more to give.
> 
> My hubs was like this and he cured me of the idea of ever living under the same roof with another man. That's why I'm all for the "his and her" house arrangement. We could have fun together and then be at peace in our own places.


 I think by initiating relationships with men based on us doing the work and the giving, we attract the narcissistic, the takers and the lazy to us, the ones looking for someone to do all the work. We establish those relationship dynamics right at the beginning. Really, if we start out doing it all, why do we think he's gonna be happy later when we change the rules and demand he does some of the work?

The "REAL" Men aren't comfortable with women over-giving. They don't want to compete with us. Masculine men like to give, they like to make women happy and they like to be appreciated for it. They don't give to get anything more than our smile, a thank you, and to hear how awesome they are. Their goal is happy women. My job is to BE a happy woman.


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Why would you start a relationship with a narcisdtic, lazy person?

Alo i ever said is, dont be afrsid to let a nice guy know you are interested. Help a brotha out! 

Not expecting snyone to fo all the work! I mudt be speaking a different language here. thought we had this settled?


----------



## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Mick after reading your post I've come to the conclusion you either need a phone with a bigger keypad or you are speaking a different language. LOL


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

> Why would you start a relationship with a narcisdtic, lazy person?


Hahahaha! "Chemistry." 

Mick, how would you suggest women let you know they were interested?

I smile and talk to men, I greet them whenever I see them. Is there more?


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

,They dont give to get anything more than a smile, our thanks and to hear how awsome they are.

I THOUGHT I WAS OLD FASHIONED lol
NO woman EVER felt the need to tell me how awesome they thought I was.
I gave whatever I gave to get someone to talk to, someone to listen to, someone to cook 3 squares HA, AND< SEX.
Thats what I worked for for 45yrs. Building a farm,homestead was my goal, and I thought I needed a women for the above mentioned to supply that.


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Laura said:


> Hahahaha! "Chemistry."
> 
> Mick, how would you suggest women let you know they were interested?
> 
> I smile and talk to men, I greet them whenever I see them. Is there more?



And how is that different from guys that you are only interested in frienship with?


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Yea, sorry bout that




Tommyice said:


> Mick after reading your post I've come to the conclusion you either need a phone with a bigger keypad or you are speaking a different language. LOL


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

mickm said:


> And how is that different from guys that you are only interested in frienship with?


 Yeah, how should I bridge that for you? You know, without actually asking you out?


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Is this what your sayin, ladies?


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Laura said:


> Yeah, how should I bridge that for you? You know, without actually asking you out?


All i am saying is guys can get mixed signals.

I dont see the issue with lettin a guy know that your interested in him.

Seems to me that a guy that isnt fazed by rejection is somewhat narcissitic. 

Maybe i am doomed to be alone, but i would rather be thought of as bashful or ignorant, then as a guy who constantly hits on women.

I am not sure what yo say. is a guy supposed to think every eoman who smiles and is nice ti him is flirting? Or should he know tyat somecwomen will think of him as a looser, no matter what? 

Is asking a guy out, or just saying " we should do something sometime" or "i would like to get to know you better", such a terrible thing?

I wont agriee that a simple hint like thst, will corrupt sny future relationship. Sorry!;

Just givin yavon "real man's" opinion!


----------



## Terri in WV (May 10, 2002)

mickm said:


> Why would you start a relationship with a narcisdtic, lazy person?


I didn't think I had! I dated and lived with a man that was very attentive and helpful and we got along great(2+ yrs). It wasn't until after we were married that his true self started to come out in little bits and by 5 years into the I do's his full blown narcissistic self was all that was left. I married the illusion of the man he presented himself to be.


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

And he became that, because you asked him out?

I made that statement "tongue in cheek". I was msinly just teasing, laura.

I didnt marry a crazy woman, but it was only in remission.


----------



## Terri in WV (May 10, 2002)

So, you're thinking I created a monster?


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Terri in WV said:


> So, you're thinking I created a monster?



Not at all. no more then i created a cheater!


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

People with NPD and BPD are incredible manipulators. They are chameleons, mirroring their targets to appear to be the perfect mates. When they have them locked in, then their true selves emerge. Really, those who haven't experienced it have no clue what these people are like.

I do ask men if they will be attending events and say I hope to see them there. Mostly, men who are interested eventually work up to asking or lose interest. Like others' experiences, most people are not interested in this lifestyle, they fall away.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Laura said:


> *I think by initiating relationships with men based on us doing the work and the giving, we attract the narcissistic, the takers and the lazy to us, the ones looking for someone to do all the work.* We establish those relationship dynamics right at the beginning. Really, if we start out doing it all, why do we think he's gonna be happy later when we change the rules and demand he does some of the work?


OMGosh is this totally dead on balls true or what!!!!
I wish I knew now what I didn't know then.
I think "takers" seek out "givers".....it's like a radar thing.....
I can't wait to take abnormal psychology. 




> The "REAL" Men aren't comfortable with women over-giving. They don't want to compete with us. Masculine men like to give, they like to make women happy and they like to be appreciated for it. They don't give to get anything more than our smile, a thank you, and to hear how awesome they are. Their goal is happy women. My job is to BE a happy woman.


This is a lot to think about.
thank you.


----------



## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

mickm said:


> Seems to me that a guy that isnt fazed by rejection is somewhat narcissitic.


Wouldn't that be the other way around Mick? I mean a guy who is *not *fazed by rejection couldn't be narcissistic---a narcissist would be wondering why someone could possibly not be attracted to them when they themselves are so attracted to themselves.

Now as to givers and takers....that is the yin and yang. The givers are getting something from the takers. Givers are givers for a reason. They usually derive some form of pleasure or satisfaction from caring for others. Of course there are extremes to those forms, but in my opinion that is not par for the course


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Of course givers get something from giving! It feels good to give and be appreciated for our efforts! The problem arises when we don't give to ourselves first. Many of us, I think especially women but men too, are Pleasers conditioned to give unconditionally without healthy boundaries. We give like we do for our children. Are we over-giving because we want to control the relationship?

So Mick, are you asking how to transition from Friend Zone to intimate relationship?


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

No laura, i am asking how a woman gives the signal to trandition from friend zone to relationship zone, short of saying they are interested?

For some reason i feel i am not making my point. I really thougut we had this coverd.


----------



## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

Laura said:


> People with NPD and BPD are incredible manipulators. They are chameleons, mirroring their targets to appear to be the perfect mates. When they have them locked in, then their true selves emerge. Really, those who haven't experienced it have no clue what these people are like...


 

I've experienced this. I believe my ex was this way.


----------



## tambo (Mar 28, 2003)

Laura said:


> People with NPD and BPD are incredible manipulators. They are chameleons, mirroring their targets to appear to be the perfect mates. When they have them locked in, then their true selves emerge. Really, those who haven't experienced it have no clue what these people are like.


This describes my exhusband to a tee. Master manipulator and game player.


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Yeah, the NPD and BPDs are masters at creating "chemistry" by finding identifying every little desire and vulnerability of our little hearts and installing hooks into it. Unfortunately, we tend to put too much stock in "chemistry" and miss all the giant red flags. I don't trust chemistry at all without full exploration of WHY!

so Mick, if we covered it, you have your answers you need?


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

No laura, you dtill havent told me how you treat a man differentwho is a friend, then how you treat the guy who you are intetested in.

Since it is your belief that guys who are tentative to adk a woman oout are severly flawed and a woman saying she is interested in a guy will tsint the whooe relationship, i eould like to know what signs to look for.


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

No, I didn't say men who don't step up and ask me out are severely flawed, they simply aren't the men for me. 

Men Friend Zone themselves, I don't do it. I like all my friends, that's why they're called FRIENDS. I am open to deeper relationships with my friends. 

If a really shy guy friend is lagging, I might ask for a small low-risk favor and see how he responds. If it's positive, he gets a small pie or a hug test with his thank you. Don't blow the hug. 

Is that enough of a clue? Or does that make you go running for the hills?


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Not much mskes me go running for th hills.

I just had a lady bake me cookies as a thank you for the work i did. i guess i will ask her out.

She is lesbisn, but we can wotk around that, i guess.


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

mickm said:


> Not much mskes me go running for th hills.
> 
> I just had a lady bake me cookies as a thank you for the work i did. i guess i will ask her out.
> 
> She is lesbisn, but we can wotk around that, i guess.


 Hey, she has GFs who are not lesbians. Network. My closest Guy Friend and best date is the Marlboro Man. I think I am the only one in the area aware. I've known him for 13 years and the only time I saw a bulge in his pants was when a young guy was bent over showing Plumber's Butt. He is my Bull and I am his Beard. We have a lot of fun and share civic interests. He knows when to stand down and fade, so do I.

When I see someone for the first time and we begin a conversation, if I'm not interested, the conversation is over quickly. "Have a nice day, see ya around." 

First thing to spark my interest is your smile. Second would be if you can make me chuckle. Then we'll talk and see if we can find commonalities.

If I am interested in you and you are staying with it, the conversation may last a half hour or longer. Before we part, I will make sure we both know each other's full names. We will shake hands, have good eye contact and I will tell you I hope to see you again. Some men figure out to look my number up in the phone book and actually call.

Thing is Guys, if you want women to say YES, you have to ask the right questions. You also need to know when it's time for you to say NO.


----------



## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

Are you one of the women that like to crush a mans hand in a handshake? Like, in a meet my grip or else? 

I knew a gal for quite a while...didn't know her well...knew of her better. A very pretty one in fact. Fairly tall and thin... I went in to pay my insurance once, and she was there secretarying. We chit-chatted and laughed, and I was thinking 'bout asking if she'd like to go out sometime and watch the moon rise? She put her hands where I could see them up close and comparing them to mine, and her fingers were longer!

I've got big 'ole hands...my kids call me sausage fingers. And the kids...they're not little guys! She intimidated the tar outa me!!! Nope, never asked. She remarried about 1 1/2 years ago.

They are twisted and bent from using them, but I bet hers were a half inch longer!











Laura said:


> Before we part, I will make sure we both know each other's full names. We will shake hands, have good eye contact and I will tell you I hope to see you again. Some men figure out to look my number up in the phone book and actually call.
> 
> QUOTE]


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Littlejoe, I'm 5'3" 116 pounds and my ring size is 5. I doubt if I could crush a real man's hand, but I want to know his handshake to know if it is good. I can't abide a limp slimy hand. It's like picking up a salamander.

And Mick, you're right. There are times when a woman should just ask the man to go have coffee with her.


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

We can agree on that, laura! 

Hate shsking a man's hand and it's limp!


----------



## SimplerTimez (Jan 20, 2008)

Hereâs my 02 shekels on this continuing threadâ¦

Many people here have been badly hurt and are still recovering from that. Some have been in very traumatic relationships.

If you grew up where the relationship m.o. you absorbed was chaotic, or, you have lived some time in a chaotic, traumatic relationship and are now free to start anew, take a look at your relationship toolbox before beginning a new relationship.

The women that survive a traumatic relationship generally are very strong, because theyâve had to be. Men who survive them tend to respond in opposite manners, and so we see a huge role reversal of strong, tough women, and soft-hearted, (edited)cautious guys.

Relationships with unstable people have a lot of highs and lows to them and trigger adrenaline. Chaos becomes the norm, like running around screaminâ with your hair on fire. Having to jump up, do more, rush off with kids, etc., creates a really off center relationship toolbox to work with. Normal relationships donât create those feelings of extreme highs and devastating lows â they are fairly even keeled and to former adrenaline types, perhaps look a little boring.

I believe first off you have to reach down inside of you and figure out what you want a relationship to actually look like. What you respond to most likely will be different than what you are truly looking for initially, because itâs in the nature to return to what you know and are familiar with even if it sucked. So, if youâre attracted, make sure you know what caught your eye and whether itâs based on the new relationship type you want, or the old, familiar habit that you have developed.

If you meet a stable, non-chaotic person, and you reach into the relationship toolbox to use the tools developed in a bad relationship, itâs not going to work. Itâs rather like normal people approach building a house with a hammer, some nails and a level. The adrenaline based toolbox person approaches building a house in a hazmat outfit, carrying a blowtorch and an ice pick. Which person do you think will build a house as opposed to burning one down?

You also cannot treat the next potential relationship partner as if they carried all of the same traits as your previous hurtful relationship, nor put them through some battery of previous experience tests. This will cause the normal person to run screaming for the hills, be they male or female. Really, there are far fewer maladjusted people out there than this small group settingâs experience implies â if you donât think so, meander over to the rest of the forums here where a lot of the normal couples hang out  Watch people in good relationships, they are hard to spot due to no drama. They are just living.

Each of us chooses whether we will carry our victim mentality forward in life or not, of whether men are jerks and women are hurtful wenches or that things just went badly for us once (in some cases, more than once and if so, check yourself and what youâre attracted to). We can build external walls, or we can mend our internal fences and come back to the table as a more centered, approachable and capable potential partner. The choice ultimately lies with us. 

This isnât to prompt any arguments, but only to make each of us think, first about ourselves, then after that, externally to others.

~ST


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

What an amazing well thought out post. ^^^^^


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Good post, and this may just be cause the truth hurts; but bristle a little at the " timid guys" comment.

I feel like i am stronger then i was before my marriage. i am not timid, i sm cautious.

Gotta admit that i and many guys find out after we are alone for awhile, that we like it.

Sooooo , just cause a guy doesnt ask ya out it may not be that he is a quivering wad of insecurities. it may be he is just happy where he is in life. 

For a relationship to work, wether it is business, friendship or intimate, it must be mutually beneficial. Something to keep in mind.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

SimplerTimez said:


> Hereâs my 02 shekels on this continuing threadâ¦
> I believe first off you have to reach down inside of you and figure out *what you want a relationship to actually look like.* What you respond to most likely will be different than what you are truly looking for initially, because itâs in the nature to return to what you know and are familiar with even if it sucked. So, if youâre attracted, make sure you know what caught your eye and whether itâs based on the new relationship type you want, or the old, familiar habit that you have developed.~ST


I will spot you a handful of shekels, if you will spend them here with your insights!!

I think at 23, the only thing I 'knew' I wanted was children.
Beyond that? I just didn't have a solid head on my shoulders.
Here we are some....uh cough cough.....years later, more mature, kids raised, marriage in the toilet.......and really taking a deep look into myself.

Your toolbox analogy is spot on.

I know what I want, and I also know my spouse can never provide it.

Now what?


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

I know you didnt ask me, but.....

It siunds to me like you have had your mind made up for awhile....

Now, what ya do with that....


----------



## SimplerTimez (Jan 20, 2008)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I will spot you a handful of shekels, if you will spend them here with your insights!!
> 
> I think at 23, the only thing I 'knew' I wanted was children.
> Beyond that? I just didn't have a solid head on my shoulders.
> ...


I can only tell you what I've done, and what I've discovered about myself. YMMV. 

First, you do not really know what your spouse can or cannot provide - the relationship is in a predictable pattern that both of you are playing your parts in. But that call belongs to the two of you. Marriages have healed from greater traumas and torn asunder under less.

Secondly, spend a lot of time alone getting to know yourself. This is far more difficult than casting blame elsewhere. It hurts. Be honest with yourself. Then spend some more time alone until you are comfortable with it. It is my personal belief that until you are able to be comfortable alone, you are not able to be a good partner. 

Thirdly, build a new emotional relationship toolbox. It usually begins with forgiveness, of self and others. Then removal of bitterness. As long as you remain bitter, other people still control your emotional life. 

Fourth, really give thought about what kind of person you want to be, and what kind of person you wish to have beside you. Become that person. Envision a healthy and happy relationship. If you don't know what that looks like, research it.

Then be willing to wait in happiness and contentment with your own life, for the kind of person you desire to partner with, including forever. It is also my personal belief that until you can look to forever alone and be at ease, you cannot be a good potential partner. 

These are things that have worked for me up to this point. I am not in a relationship at this time. I have however, learned to turn away from those that are not right, and to encourage those that I feel are right, when given that opportunity. I am taking it slowly and I don't want to rush.

I'm glad you found something helpful in what I've written and I wish you strength, healing and happiness, from within first.

~ST


----------



## SimplerTimez (Jan 20, 2008)

mickm said:


> Good post, and this may just be cause the truth hurts; but bristle a little at the " timid guys" comment.
> 
> I feel like i am stronger then i was before my marriage. i am not timid, i sm cautious.
> 
> ...


Okay, I will revise timid to cautious; I think that is fair 

Women also find out after we are alone for awhile, that we like it. But I believe only a truly few people are _suited_ for long-term solitude, however many can _accept_ it and still have joy. I also believe some people remain there because it is safer.

If you felt that I was implying that you or anyone is a 'quivering wad of insecurity' please accept my apology. I neither meant, said, or even thought that. 

~ST


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

mickm said:


> Good post, and this may just be cause the truth hurts; but bristle a little at the " timid guys" comment.
> 
> I feel like i am stronger then i was before my marriage. i am not timid, i sm cautious.
> 
> ...


 Exactly, Mick. I don't consider men who don't ask me out to be insecure, flawed, too timid or whatever. Many of my guy friends who don't ask for dates eventually get around to telling me WHY, and letting me know they are happy the way things are. I am happy with the level of trust, respect and emotional intimacy these men share. I know they put a lot of thought into the possibilities rather than treating me like a piece of meat.

I get to learn from all my relationships. I learn about myself, I learn about boundaries and where they belong and I learn how to better interact with others. I learn who I am and how others perceive me, and what I like and what I want or don't want in future relationships. 

The biggest thing I needed to learn when I became single again was how to TRUST. That's one reason I joined our rural volunteer fire department. I am not there to date and flirt. I am there to build trust relationships while doing something good in the community. It's nice knowing who you can and cannot trust going into a fire with, and it's nice knowing there are men who trust ME.


----------



## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

mickm said:


> Since it is your belief that guys who are tentative to ask a woman out are severely flawed and a woman saying she is interested in a guy will taint the whole relationship, I would like to know what signs to look for.


This has really been interesting - I mainly lurk and read, am happily married for nearly six months now with a man I lived with 6 years before the wedding. But this is good stuff for any relationship! And I think I have the answer to your question......

My husband and I met while league bowling, chatting and flirting for a while every Thursday while at the bowling alley, but that was it. So I was beginning to think he was never going to ask me out! 

Thus, I took matters into my own hands, handed him my business card with my cell phone number on it, and told him, "Call me if you'd like to get together for dinner one evening." He took the card, called me that Sunday, we had our first date the following Tuesday and have been together ever since. 

So me making it painfully obvious I was interested did not taint our relationship, and he told me if I hadn't made that first move, he might not have ever been brave enough to ask me out on his own. He's a very masculine man, a Marine, and an all-around great guy. But he thought I was way out of his league, was slightly intimidated, and just needed that extra reassurance that I really was interested in getting to know him better. 

Is it possible that move (or something similar) is what you're looking and hoping for? Is is possible that there are more men than Mick that would appreciate that clarity of intent? Seems so from what I've been reading. And ladies, what say you? Would you ever do the same?


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Id say, add me to your last sentence.


----------



## Farmer Dave (Jan 1, 2003)

2horses said:


> Is is possible that there are more men than Mick that would appreciate that clarity of intent? Seems so from what I've been reading. And ladies, what say you? Would you ever do the same?



Yep...IMHO there would be a lot less frustrated men out there if more women were like 2horses.


*****


----------



## CntryDaydreamer (Mar 7, 2013)

SimplerTimez~ * standing ovation * absolutely beautifully put and very true indeed. 

Farmer Dave~ Uhmmmmm would that be in the looks department or the emotional stand point?


----------



## Farmer Dave (Jan 1, 2003)

CntryDaydreamer said:


> Farmer Dave~ Uhmmmmm would that be in the looks department or the emotional stand point?



????? - Please clarify your question.


*****


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

> But he thought I was way out of his league,


2Horses brought up something very important here, League Perceptions, how we classify each other and how we perceive others classify us.
It's only recently I've had a dawning awareness and I had no words for it.


----------



## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Leagues are um funny.......

I may be wierd, but i offten worry women will judge me for things i wouldnt judge them for, but then i i am hurt or offended when i am judged For odd stuff. 
but yes, it is often why guys dont make the first move.

Its not always an sppearance or financial thing. its a she seems cool, but would we really have anything in common, deal.

For instsnce..... several years ago i met a nice lady who i was attracted to phydically and mentslly, but she didnt have kids, lived in the city, worked in corprate america and drove a little sports car.

I thought she was in a different league. i had lunch with her one day and didnt text her gor a few days, and missed my chance. i wish now i would have asked her to dinner, but i was in a poor place mentally.

Who knows?


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Im with Dave again. WHADIDA YA MEAN DDREAMER


----------



## Laura (May 10, 2002)

mickm said:


> Leagues are um funny.......
> 
> I may be wierd, but i offten worry women will judge me for things i wouldnt judge them for, but then i i am hurt or offended when i am judged For odd stuff.
> but yes, it is often why guys dont make the first move.
> ...


See, I think this is probably the main reason I don't ask men out. When their head is in the right place, they will do the asking, or tell why they didn't. Usually the reason is because of their own internal stuff. I try not to go there unless invited.

When I am talking to men a lot of them have brief displays of shame. They can show great pride in a lot of things and be totally awesome, but something like work or family or health will be vague and they display shame. I usually figure it out, but these men are the ones who don't ask me out or who can't pursue a relationship with me. 

I think some of it has something to do with Leagues. Someone will need to explain to me what they are. (New Thread)

I know many women can be nasty and judgmental and have seriously skewed priorities, but I think men judge themselves way more severely than women do.


----------



## CntryDaydreamer (Mar 7, 2013)

Farmer Dave said:


> Yep...IMHO there would be a lot less frustrated men out there if more women were like 2horses.
> 
> 
> *****


LOL .... seems I misread...

My internal auto correct was working over time. I thought Dave said if women were more like horses. Hence the question in looks or mentally. :doh:


----------



## ErikaMay (Feb 28, 2013)

Laura said:


> I know many women can be nasty and judgmental and have seriously skewed priorities, but I think men judge themselves way more severely than women do.


interestingly the MORE experience I've had the more I've become judgemental. You know how women say "i judge a man by his shoes" well i thought that was dumb and judgemental BS at first...but now i'm starting to understand that idea more. (can i get a guy in an oiled pair of georga boots with dirt clods on them? a sign of someone who works hard but takes care of their stuff and values quality!) 

When I was younger I was all ears, open heart and sympathy. I still give people the benefit of the doubt more than I probably should but experience has taught me to be wary.


----------

