# Organic farm threatened.



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Local authorities getting court order to spray entire farm for weeds.

https://www.azurestandard.com/


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Seems like an ad to me........?


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## CircleC (Feb 22, 2017)

I saw this on facebook. Makes no sense


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## CircleC (Feb 22, 2017)

.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Canada thistles are in a lot of legislation. Looks like where they were at, the locality originally went with the word "control" in their law. I wonder why they felt the need to change it? Hmmm, could it be that someone had Canada thistles blowing seeds all over their neighbors property, neighbors who had probably spent a lot of money on eradicating them on their own property, so that it was no longer a problem? If grain farming was my livelihood, and my neighbor negatively affected my property, causing me to have to spray more chemicals than ordinary, I can see where I might contact the locality. Especially after they told me how special they were and how they couldn't properly control the problem because it might negatively impact their bottom line. (Ignoring the fact that their problem, the one they failed to effectively control, was negatively impacting my bottom line). So, now they are drumming up outside support, to fight the locality who is probably acting on the request of the majority of their local constituents.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

barnbilder said:


> Canada thistles are in a lot of legislation. Looks like where they were at, the locality originally went with the word "control" in their law. I wonder why they felt the need to change it? Hmmm, could it be that someone had Canada thistles blowing seeds all over their neighbors property, neighbors who had probably spent a lot of money on eradicating them on their own property, so that it was no longer a problem? If grain farming was my livelihood, and my neighbor negatively affected my property, causing me to have to spray more chemicals than ordinary, I can see where I might contact the locality. Especially after they told me how special they were and how they couldn't properly control the problem because it might negatively impact their bottom line. (Ignoring the fact that their problem, the one they failed to effectively control, was negatively impacting my bottom line). So, now they are drumming up outside support, to fight the locality who is probably acting on the request of the majority of their local constituents.


Bingo.........Agree.


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

barnbilder said:


> Canada thistles are in a lot of legislation. Looks like where they were at, the locality originally went with the word "control" in their law. I wonder why they felt the need to change it? Hmmm, could it be that someone had Canada thistles blowing seeds all over their neighbors property, neighbors who had probably spent a lot of money on eradicating them on their own property, so that it was no longer a problem? If grain farming was my livelihood, and my neighbor negatively affected my property, causing me to have to spray more chemicals than ordinary, I can see where I might contact the locality. Especially after they told me how special they were and how they couldn't properly control the problem because it might negatively impact their bottom line. (Ignoring the fact that their problem, the one they failed to effectively control, was negatively impacting my bottom line). So, now they are drumming up outside support, to fight the locality who is probably acting on the request of the majority of their local constituents.


. 


This is how many farmers feel when they are non GMO but their nieghbors use GMO and the pollen drifts on their land . But the law always favors the pro gmo


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

haley1 said:


> This is how many farmers feel when they are non GMO but their nieghbors use GMO and the pollen drifts on their land . But the *law always favors the pro gmo*


The law favors the facts, and the scenario you described almost never happens.
That's because it can easily be prevented with just a little planning.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

After doing a little reading, it looks like Oregon is taking a hard line stance against invasive species. They are going full out nanny state, involving every agency, even homeland security. Obviously what the people of Oregon wanted. People have been screaming about pesticide spraying, now the government is stepping in to limit pesticide spraying by completely eradicating several species of plant pests. Be careful, because sometimes you get what you wish for. Remember that game in school, where everybody whispers something in someone else s ear, and by the time it gets around the room it sounds completely different? That is how government often works.

The same thing is playing out with the whole antibiotics in our meat problem. Pretty soon it won't be a problem, as farmers will have to pay a vet to come out in order to administer any antibiotics. Big corporate farms with staff vets will have a distinct advantage, strengthening the industrial food complex at the expense of small farmers, the amount of antibiotics used will be exactly the same. Gee thanks.

This is one of those cases where the organic farmer is going to have to work for all that extra money his product is worth. They are going to have to take some of their land out of organic production for a time, and keep a small enough organic acreage that they can effectively manage. Organic farmers often tout the fact that their crops are not sprayed, and that spraying is bad, now people are listening, and taking action to limit spraying, and they don't like it.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The law favors the facts, and the scenario you described almost never happens.
> That's because it can easily be prevented with just a little planning.


 Ya it is just a whiny bunch that can't take care of things so they go to the media to spread lies misinformation around. Weeds are best if they are done away with before they take over. But so few think they can hoe them away, what a bunch of 1800 thinkers. LOL


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

The story is a lie. 
Those weeds can be eradicated without the named chemicals. It seems like the owners simply don't want to. 
It also seems odd to imply the entire farm would be sprayed with Roundup because that will kill everything on the farm.


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

Wonder what you would say if the government can and did what ever they wanted without your permission


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Here's where the people who are normally anti-government step in and advocate for destroying organic farms and small businesses simply because they hate organic farming practices.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I have no particular problem with organic farming methods that work. I also grew up on a regular farm where Canadian thistle had gotten established. It's a bugger to kill out even with chemicals... Is Tordon still available? That was the only thing we ever found that would kill them.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

Some friends of mine used to have an organic commercial dairy farm. The whole family would turn out to dig up the Canadian thistle BY HAND, rather than resort to chemical means. Now, they are much older and the younger folks are no longer interested... There went the farm. 

I wonder if spot applications of the old fashioned salt & vinegar solution would work? I know it is not exactly "cost effective" for large acreages, but those who have smaller plots may find it useful?


.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

CajunSunshine said:


> Some friends of mine used to have an organic commercial dairy farm. The whole family would turn out to dig up the Canadian thistle BY HAND, rather than resort to chemical means. Now, they are much older and the younger folks are no longer interested... There went the farm.
> 
> I wonder if spot applications of the old fashioned salt & vinegar solution would work? I know it is not exactly "cost effective" for large acreages, but those who have smaller plots may find it useful?
> 
> ...


I had an uncle that dug some of his out by hand. He claimed if he didn't get the root out at least two feet deep it would be back in a week or two. The Canadian version is a whole nuther critter from the more common bull thistle that are easily controlled just by regular mowing. I don't know about the vinegar salt thing, that really seems expensive to me. Not bad for a garden but going across acreage..... Wow!


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## Rectifier (Jun 12, 2011)

Yeah, Canada thistle is a thorn in the side of the organic producer. We planned to go organic for years but Canada thistle is one of the reasons we simply decided to plant our cropland to forage this year and get out of the cropping business and bigger into lamb production. They are extremely hard to control but it can be done, with proper rotation, in-crop cultivation, deep plowing and yes much-derided summerfallow. 

Rotation to choking green manures like vetches costs big money and grows no crop. In-crop cultivation costs big money for row cropping equipment and vast amounts of time in the summer. Deep plowing costs big money and damages the soil structure. Summerfallow costs money, grows no crop and causes erosion and nutrient loss but I'm sorry, there is really no other option for thistle control short of spraying.

So this is why you get the big price premiums for organic, so you can afford to do these things. I have no sympathy for weed farmers who are in this for the big premiums but let their fields go to weeds in the long term. You cannot let Canada thistle slide or it will bite you in the ass, this is a fact.


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## TCMMotherNature (May 14, 2017)

Has anyone had success with St Gabriel Organics Burnout II? I've used it on individual weeds, and small clumps with success, but never on a large scale.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Here's where the people who are normally anti-government step in and advocate for destroying organic farms and small businesses simply because *they hate organic farming practices*.


Again you resort to fabrication instead of sticking to reality.
If they would control their weeds there would be no problem.
Pretending they will be forced to spray Roundup is simply a lie.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It seems like roundup would be the chemical of choice since it can be applied to individual plants and not to the entire area of soil.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Neighbor's dog comes over and takes food off your table, bites kid, kills chickens, you call your neighbor, he is out of town and won't do anything about it because his dog is special. So you call animal control, they can't do anything, because there is no law on the books allowing them to do anything. So a law gets proposed, after enough people have problems, and animal control can come and possibly destroy a free ranging dog that makes itself a menace. So now, the irresponsible owner is drumming up outside help to influence local regulations. I'm sorry, I'm not a fan of government intrusion, but I also realize that their are irresponsible people out their that necessitate their writing.

Anyone that is upset that the county is coming to spray the farm, or that they changed laws to address an issue, should be upset at the farmer, or rather executive in this case that caused such government action. He made it bad for all farmers, conventional and organic.

This is a case where you have a farm that is spread a little thin on labor, evidently in a remote location, in relation to the farmer. Looks like they were attempting to do organic on a large scale, without putting in the labor associated with responsible organic. Capitalizing on the bigger paycheck without doing the extra work that justifies that bigger paycheck. If you are going to spread yourself thin, and do things on a large commercial scale, you better have a darn good plan if you don't want to utilize the latest in chemicals and technology designed for large scale farming.

Doesn't look like they had a plan, and evidently their neighbors were done with "experimenting" after nearly 20 years of experimenting. Weeds can have a way of accumulating, just like parasites, predators or anything else, if left unchecked. Chances are, for the first 5 or ten years, their wasn't much of a problem, then after a few years of experimenting with control options, that may have appeared to work short term, the problem got to the point that it was completely out of control. They probably have neighbors that are owner/farmers, that watched their grandfathers struggle to control Canada thistle, their fathers, and they remain very vigilant and attuned to what this invasive weed does to the environment. This doesn't do much to foster good feeling toward organic farming and practices.

There are many options they could have used along the way, not the least of which was farming on a scale that they could manage using organic methods. Crop rotation is good, rotate land in and out of organic production. It's nice to say, "here at xxxx farms, we NEVER...", but sometimes that cuts down your options considerably.

It would be preferable, if a company, (this is a corporate farm, albeit an organic one) when arguing their case, used factual information. Not "roundup is a noxious substance that was an ingredient in agent orange". Agent orange really isn't that bad, unless there is dioxin contamination. Roundup wasn't even born yet, when agent orange was causing problems.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Again you resort to fabrication instead of sticking to reality.
> If they would control their weeds there would be no problem.
> Pretending they will be forced to spray Roundup is simply a lie.


There you go with your hatred of organic farms again. Well, mostly you're just really good at hating period, it's really nothing unusual. The county decided to up their strategy and come in and mandate that all the weeds need to be killed, eradicated. That means spraying an ORGANIC farm with toxic chemicals that will result in them losing their organic certification for 10 years. 



barnbilder said:


> *Neighbor's dog comes over and takes food off your table, bites kid, kills chickens, you call your neighbor, he is out of town and won't do anything about it because his dog is special.* So you call animal control, they can't do anything, because there is no law on the books allowing them to do anything. So a law gets proposed, after enough people have problems, and animal control can come and possibly destroy a free ranging dog that makes itself a menace. So now, the irresponsible owner is drumming up outside help to influence local regulations. I'm sorry, I'm not a fan of government intrusion, but I also realize that their are irresponsible people out their that necessitate their writing.
> 
> Anyone that is upset that the county is coming to spray the farm, or that they changed laws to address an issue, should be upset at the farmer, or rather executive in this case that caused such government action. He made it bad for all farmers, conventional and organic.
> 
> ...


That's not relevant because no dog escaped. Pretending it's Azure's problem that they have weeds is absurd. They'll spray and spray and the weeds will still be there, in the hinterlands somewhere. Trying to control nature is pretty absurd.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

The dog did escape. Canada thistle seeds are airborne. Allowing your fields to become Canada thistle repositories through poor management is a burden to other people. If the idea behind organic farming is to limit the use of chemical weed killers that destroy the environment, causing your neighbors to use more chemicals hardly seems like the way to accomplish reduced chemical usage.

Nature has been controlled successfully in many instances. Any grey wolves kill your sheep last night? How about screw worms? They eradicated screw worms essentially by genetically modifying screw worms, (using radiation) beginning sometime in the 1950's. Pretty impressive. It has to be a concerted effort, though. This is one of the places where government can get everyone on board. If the majority agrees, on a local level, that Canada thistles are bad, that is how it is supposed to work. Do you think it is fair for distant soccer moms to agree that chemicals are bad, and Canada thistles are not, and influence laws in that locality? If so, then that is a strange version of democracy. They've likely never seen a Canada thistle, let alone tried to control them.

It's unfortunate for the farmers involved. Maybe they should have managed their weeds better. Or, moved to a state that's government is not as involved as Oregon.

In many areas controlling the spread of weeds would be as simple as turning off the irrigation system on fields that had weeds. A lot of the big organic operations rely on irrigating what is otherwise desert. This is probably why.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

barnbilder said:


> The dog did escape. Canada thistle seeds are airborne. Allowing your fields to become Canada thistle repositories through poor management is a burden to other people. If the idea behind organic farming is to limit the use of chemical weed killers that destroy the environment, causing your neighbors to use more chemicals hardly seems like the way to accomplish reduced chemical usage.
> 
> Nature has been controlled successfully in many instances. Any grey wolves kill your sheep last night? How about screw worms? They eradicated screw worms essentially by genetically modifying screw worms, (using radiation) beginning sometime in the 1950's. Pretty impressive. It has to be a concerted effort, though. This is one of the places where government can get everyone on board. If the majority agrees, on a local level, that Canada thistles are bad, that is how it is supposed to work. Do you think it is fair for distant soccer moms to agree that chemicals are bad, and Canada thistles are not, and influence laws in that locality? If so, then that is a strange version of democracy. They've likely never seen a Canada thistle, let alone tried to control them.
> 
> ...


"The dog did escape. Canada thistle seeds are airborne." Lots of things are airborne. Want to start banning oak trees next? Weeds are considered weeds because they do not serve commercial purposes. The weed doesn't care what you think of it.

"Any grey wolves kill your sheep last night?" No, but they used to kill deer. Coyotes still killed my sheep, though. And in areas where wolves are present, coyotes are also present, and they kill vastly more animals than wolves. And because wolves aren't present as apex predators, we have to have hunters running around the wilderness with guns and beer blowing the *&^$ out of the woods.


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## chaossmurf (Jan 6, 2017)

well they asked me to call the county and express my opinion --1 vote for smart government 

now im seriousely against them interfering with anyones farm --unless that (corporation) farmers hurting his neighbors by his bad choices --then its time to force him to stop hurting his neighboring farms

ive pulled thistle by hand my entire childhood & even helped our neighbors (who loved the flowers) get thiers under control a few times (kids & matches & all that jazz)
wanna talk about an easy fix ---hand a kid a machete (or smaller knife ) and a large sack ---then tell them they get a penny for every thistle they bring back --too spend at the candy store ---worked wonders for the kids around our neighborhood--later in life we realized our parents were raiding our own penny jugs to pay for that service  hehehehe a trick I picked up from them for my nephew  and hope too pass it along eventually


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

CajunSunshine said:


> Some friends of mine used to have an organic commercial dairy farm. The whole family would turn out to dig up the Canadian thistle BY HAND, rather than resort to chemical means. Now, they are much older and the younger folks are no longer interested... There went the farm.
> 
> I wonder if spot applications of the old fashioned salt & vinegar solution would work? I know it is not exactly "cost effective" for large acreages, but those who have smaller plots may find it useful?
> 
> ...


I found a recipe combining vinegar and orange oil that's supposed to be death on plants (not just weeds) if applied during sun and dry times. I've got both the 20% vinegar and the orange oil. Now to get the gloves, etc., dilute the vinegar to 10% and add the orange oil. I'm planning on using the stuff on Japanese Knotweed as a trial. Unfortunately or fortunately the late frost here killed much of the knotweed. I suspect the stems will resprout soon and I'll have a go at it. 

I had planned to buy glacial acetic acid and dilute that. Finding the recipe was a happy event.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Oak seeds don't blow very far, and the resulting weeds are much easier to control than Canada thistle. Usually one time with the disk takes care of them. Chainsaw works wonders. You can hit them way before they spread seed.

Deer were almost wiped out. Market hunting works wonders. Meat tastes better than spotted owl or timber wolf. Hunters kill far fewer livestock and pets than wolves, in areas where wolves exist. Wolves are another example where people that live far away control laws that impact people on a personal level. To the point that states can't even manage their own wolf populations, even when those populations meet and exceed federal guidelines. Many of the people that want wolves in someone else s back yard, wouldn't like them in their own.

Harboring invasive pests that spread to other people's property hardly seems like being a good steward of the land you manage, when there are so many tools available. I want to move next door to you and start a wild boar farm. I'm going to live in another town, and I don't plan to spend much on fence. Fence doesn't fit in with my management plan. Maybe I can plant some invasive plants for them to eat. And pigeons, I need a big pigeon population, they can go to the neighbors place and eat the seeds they plant, and I can use their waste to fertilize my fields of scotch broom and autumn olive. Because I am producing organic wild boar meat, you can't do anything about it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> There you go with *your hatred of organic farms *again. Well, mostly you're just really good at hating period, it's really nothing unusual. The county decided to up their strategy and come in and *mandate that all the weeds need to be killed*, eradicated. *That means spraying an ORGANIC farm with toxic chemicals* that will result in them losing their organic certification for 10 years.


More fabrications.



Heritagefarm said:


> we have to have hunters running around the wilderness with guns and beer blowing the* *&^$* out of the woods.


and again. (While disregarding forum rules once more)


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> *Oak seeds* don't blow very far


I've never seen any "oak seeds" blow anywhere unless a tornado picked up those *acorns.
*
HF is confusing flowers and leaves with seeds.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I've never seen any "oak seeds" blow anywhere unless a tornado picked up those *acorns.
> *
> HF is confusing flowers and leaves with seeds.


Bhohahahaha....Oak seeds.....Funny.
Maybe run around in the wilderness blowing the ^&%$ out of squirrels..?.

Most intelligent discussions shoud between held between knowledge parties....
But is the fun in that......
Carry on...


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

For those not in the rural west. Noxious and invasive weeds are taken more seriously here than back east from what I've experienced. Landowners are obliged to eradicate these plants on their own property. I'm all for organic farms and personal freedoms, but when someone's freeedoms infringe on others, like allowing noxious weeds to flourish and reseed onto others properties, then something should be done.
These plants don't naturally occur, and they don't have checks on them like they would in their native habitat. Cheatgrass is one and it's a major problem in the west because it's taken over grazing lands and it's a prime fuel for wildfires. We all benefit from its eradication and if a landowner can't keep up, he should sell his land to someone who can.


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## chaossmurf (Jan 6, 2017)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> For those not in the rural west. Noxious and invasive weeds are taken more seriously here than back east from what I've experienced. Landowners are obliged to eradicate these plants on their own property. I'm all for organic farms and personal freedoms, but when someone's freeedoms infringe on others, like allowing noxious weeds to flourish and reseed onto others properties, then something should be done.
> These plants don't naturally occur, and they don't have checks on them like they would in their native habitat. Cheatgrass is one and it's a major problem in the west because it's taken over grazing lands and it's a prime fuel for wildfires. We all benefit from its eradication and if a landowner can't keep up, he should sell his land to someone who can.


well , id say maybe them neighbors should offer to help their neighbor a few times  then turn to govt  then get chaotic as a last resort


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> More fabrications.
> 
> 
> and again. (While disregarding forum rules once more)


I haven't sworn. You, on the other hand, have called me a liar. I had my posts deleted for calling your posts fabrications. Why aren't yours being deleted eh?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

chaossmurf said:


> well , id say maybe them neighbors should offer to help their neighbor a few times  then turn to govt  then get chaotic as a last resort


Well that's sounds nice but what if the neighbor is busy controlling his own invasive weeds? Which they usually are. and why be obliged to hoe thousands of acres when they have no problems with spraying roundup on their own weeds?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> *I haven't sworn.* You, on the other hand, have called me a liar. I had my posts deleted for calling your posts fabrications.


Yes, you did.



> Heritagefarm said: ↑
> we have to have hunters running around the wilderness with guns and beer blowing the* *&^$* out of the woods.





> Why aren't yours being deleted eh?


Because what I said it true.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

DUDES!!! Don't make me come in there! Knock it off, or else.....




lol, BFF & HF = BFF (*B*est *F*riends* F*orever) ----->
.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Reading this thread is like cleaning out the bottom of an outhouse. Lisa's entry was like a wind came along and blew over the outhouse, so that I could see clearly once again. (Note, I have congenital anosmia)

Cajun's post was like a dog coming by, grinning at me in my predicament. He don't know what anosmia is.

And I can save one of you guys the trouble, because you've said it 45,000 times. "Don't read it if you don't want to" Or something like that. Actually, I guess it don't matter much, since I can't even remember it. Education by repetition don't really work.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Vinegar, acetic acid, works ok on tender broad leaf, I've never had any luck on grass in my experiments. IE lambs quarters, pig weeds. I doubt it would do much to any thistle, it won't bother plantain or portulaca much. Milkweed laughs at it. 

When you are in agriculture as a business there are times when you have to do what you aren't all that wild about. I try to stay as organic as I possibly can. I don't want to handle and apply toxins, who does? Sometimes you need to apply them judiciously. Just because you apply product 'X' here doesn't mean you aren't organic over there.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

@ Clem











> Google, Google <

Ok, now I do.

an·os·mi·a
aˈnäzmēə,aˈnäsmēə/
_noun_

noun: *anosmia*

the loss of the sense of smell, either total or partial. It may be caused by head injury, infection, or blockage of the nose.
Origin








early 19th century: from an-2 + Greek _osmē_ ‘smell.’




.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Yes, you did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL, you've got a pretty high and mighty opinion of your opinion. Symbols aren't swearing, based on the fact that you can easily replace them in your head with other 4-letter words such as "heck" and "darn." So just get you heah out of the gutter and admit that you hate organic/all natural agriculture, since you're okay with spraying an entire organic farm with toxic pesticides.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> *Symbols aren't swearing*, based on the fact that you can easily replace them in your head with other 4-letter words such as "heck" and "darn."


https://www.homesteadingtoday.com/threads/ht-rules-as-approved-by-members.537625/


> Profanity: Please refrain from using direct profanity, or deliberately misspelled profanity designed to skirt forum censors.





Heritagefarm said:


> So just get you heah out of the gutter and admit that *you hate organic/all natural agriculture*, since *you're okay with spraying* an entire organic farm with toxic pesticides.


More fabrications.
Why keep digging this hole?


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> https://www.homesteadingtoday.com/threads/ht-rules-as-approved-by-members.537625/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're always free to offer corrections instead of vague, meaningless rhetoric.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Isn't this supposed to be the nice forum?


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## oldcars (Dec 14, 2011)

I feel I need to chime in to clear up some facts about this organic "farm" and their huge weed problem. I live within sight of Azure. They are a giant mail order warehouse who only use the "farm"(one of several they own) as a selling point in their catalog to sound quaint and appeal to their target customers. They actually produce less than 2% of what they sell. This is another example of a mass media ordeal with very little truth actually known. I'm all for organic, but I am also for being a good neighbor, and TRUST ME they have cost the surrounding landowners MUCH MORE than they will "loose" by having their weeds responsibly controlled like they have been unable to do. They think they are above the law, and the entire farm and business is owned by a "church" that the owner is conveniently the leader of. There are some very decent people involved in the operation but let me assure you it's not the story of the big bad government/conventional wheat farmers vs the tiny little organic farmer that the media (social and otherwise) would have you think. Peoples lively-hoods are at stake, but it isn't Azure, they could plow under that entire 2000 acre weed patch and not notice a blip in the yearly profit.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I saw this today. Azure claims the county changed the noxious weed ordinance and county says not and provides a link to the ordinance. Looks like Azure is just saying what they please and hoping some of it sticks. Also, they seem to think that their claim their religion supersedes the law.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2017/05/dispute_over_noxious_weeds_pit.html


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Same story is playing out all over the country, most times without fanfare.

Dude, I'm totally on board with organic. I respect your choice to provide your family with wholesome organic grass fed beef. But please understand. When your highlander bull walks across your almost non-existent fence, and some passing motorist opens the gate and shoes him in with my heifers. Just to get him off the highway. Well, if he proceeds to breed my cows, the honor of which I spent hours at an auction purchasing a bull for several thousand dollars, whose performance statistics I liked, just for that purpose. When I seem upset, it's not because I have any animosity toward organic grassfed heritage beef. And it's not because I don't understand rotational mob grazing using poly electric wire, and the ease of which a tree limb can impact such a set-up. I understand, and I applaud you for your choices. But you have to do it in a responsible manner, which does not impact your neighbors.

I am not in grain country, but I have insight into what it could be like. And I haven't even dealt with large corporations like Azure. 

Thanks Oldcars for a close up perspective, and Lisa, for another side to this story. They might be organic, but they are not SUSTAINABLE organic, and any weedkiller that they kept out of the environment was offset by the extra all their neighbors had to use. Beware of buzzwords, because they might not mean what you think they do.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Funny how some folks shutter at the thought of a few ounces per acre of Roundup that is gone without a trace in a few days, but would advocate Acetic acid and Sodium Chloride in their garden. Wasn't it the Mayans that died out due to the gradual build up of salt in their soil?

In Michigan, there are thousand of acres of fruit trees and vegetables. Farmers must use far more insecticides because of the uncared for fruit trees, including many backyard orchards, that act as a constant reservoir to these insect pests. Hard to imagine that you might be putting up with wormy apples while actually causing the increased use of pesticides nearby.

This deal in Washington, should serve as an example of organic weed control. They should preempt the local government by employing the magical organic methods of weed control. They could be the beacon of hope for all aspiring organic gardeners. 

But we only have half the story and that version seems to run on a short loop.

I think it was Kansas that had a law a hundred years ago that if they found Johnson grass on your place, you'd get a big fine. Weed eradication is a big deal.

I bet most HOA have a chapter on weed control.


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## Rectifier (Jun 12, 2011)

haypoint said:


> This deal in Washington, should serve as an example of organic weed control. They should preempt the local government by employing the magical organic methods of weed control. They could be the beacon of hope for all aspiring organic gardeners.


Here's the magic wand right here, and if they are worth anything they already have one: https://lemken.com/en-ca/bodenbearbeitung/stoppelbearbeitung/kurzscheibeneggen/

These little disks will take a field from established alfalfa to seed-ready in 2 passes. Seen it with my own eyes many times. If they don't want to be sprayed, get out there and plow it down. Oldcars' post gives me even less sympathy for these guys.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

oldcars said:


> I feel I need to chime in to clear up some facts about this organic "farm" and their huge weed problem. I live within sight of Azure. They are a giant mail order warehouse who only use the "farm"(one of several they own) as a selling point in their catalog to sound quaint and appeal to their target customers. They actually produce less than 2% of what they sell. This is another example of a mass media ordeal with very little truth actually known.



I am one of the "targeted customers" of the Azure Standard.

As a member of this co-op I must say that they have been very open and transparent about the fact that they "produce less than 2% of what they sell." It is a co-op of farmers, producers and people like me who buy from the co-operative. Lots of detailed information is given with the product descriptions of everything in their website/catalogs, and in many cases, including the farms where the products come from and details about the day-to-day operations and much more information about the product itself. (Not everything is organic.)




I wholeheartedly agree with this bit, and will do my part to contact Azure to support these concerns:



oldcars said:


> ... I'm all for organic, but I am also for being a good neighbor, and TRUST ME they have cost the surrounding landowners MUCH MORE than they will "loose" by having their weeds responsibly controlled like they have been unable to do. ......
> 
> .... There are some very decent people involved in the operation but let me assure you it's not the story of the big bad government/conventional wheat farmers vs the tiny little organic farmer that the media (social and otherwise) would have you think. Peoples lively-hoods are at stake, but it isn't Azure, they could plow under that entire 2000 acre weed patch and not notice a blip in the yearly profit.





???? What is this you speak of? In all my time of being a more-than-satisfied member of the Azure Standard co-op, I have never seen even a tiny inkling of this:



oldcars said:


> ... the entire farm and business is owned by a "church" that the owner is conveniently the leader of.


I am not into shopping for religious agendas, so I am particularly sensitive to this and appreciate that Azure has not blended their religion with their business.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Funny how some folks shutter at the thought of a few ounces per acre of Roundup that is gone without a trace in a few days, but would advocate Acetic acid and Sodium Chloride in their garden. Wasn't it the Mayans that died out due to the gradual build up of salt in their soil?
> 
> In Michigan, there are thousand of acres of fruit trees and vegetables. Farmers must use far more insecticides because of the uncared for fruit trees, including many backyard orchards, that act as a constant reservoir to these insect pests. Hard to imagine that you might be putting up with wormy apples while actually causing the increased use of pesticides nearby.
> 
> ...


That's not the point. The point is that they're being unfairly targeted. You are another who worship at the altar on Monsanto and want all farms to worship at the same altar and spray their fields with chemicals which, [even if not toxic,] will still result in them losing their organic status.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

CajunSunshine said:


> ...
> I am not into shopping for religious agendas, so I am particularly sensitive to this and appreciate that Azure has not blended their religion with their business.


From at least one article it appears they have blended religion and business:



> ...According to the Associated Press, Ecclesia of Sinai, which is the parent company of both Azure Standard and Azure Farms, has cited religious beliefs for refusing to spray, including a biblical passage stating that the land should not be defiled.
> 
> Alfred Stelzer, of Ecclesia of Sinai, told the AP that the farm "made a covenant" to follow the Bible and cited a passage from the Book of Numbers 35:34 that says the land must not be polluted. ...


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

@ WhiteWolf:




CajunSunshine said:


> I am not into shopping for religious agendas, so I am particularly sensitive to this and* appreciate that Azure has not blended their religion with their business.*


Ok, I should reword that bit to read_ I appreciate how Azure has not blended religious agendas into their catalog or their website. (_If it is there, it is not of the "in your face" kind, or else I would have seen it.)

I would also like to add that I am extremely impressed with their business ethics, product quality and exemplary customer service, all of which is of the highest caliber that I have ever experienced.


.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> That's not the point. The point is that *they're being unfairly targeted*. You are another who *worship at the altar on Monsanto* and *want all farms to worship at the same altar* and spray their fields with chemicals which, [even if not toxic,] will still result in them losing their organic status.


They are being "targeted" because they aren't controlling their weeds, and it's affecting those around them.

If they lose their organic status, it will be their own fault for not taking care of the problems sooner with other methods.

Forget the melodrama and just stick with the facts, please.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> They are being "targeted" because they aren't controlling their weeds, and it's affecting those around them.
> 
> If they lose their organic status, it will be their own fault for not taking care of the problems sooner with other methods.
> 
> Forget the melodrama and just stick with the facts, please.


Organic farms have a harder time controlling weeds. That's just a fact. Why do you want to punish organic farmers? You don't like them, you think they're stupid, so you don't mind when government goes after them. You'd change your tune if the government ever went after you in any way.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Ah, the old "they are special, so they don't have to follow the law" argument.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> Organic farms have a harder time controlling weeds. That's just a fact. Why do you want to punish organic farmers? You don't like them, you think they're stupid, so you don't mind when government goes after them. You'd change your tune if the government ever went after you in any way.


If you choose to go organic then you must do the work. You don't get to cause problems for your neighbors. Noxious weeds are a real problem here in the west.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Heritagefarm said:


> LOL, you've got a pretty high and mighty opinion of your opinion. Symbols aren't swearing, based on the fact that you can easily replace them in your head with other 4-letter words such as "heck" and "darn." So just get you heah out of the gutter and admit that you hate organic/all natural agriculture, since you're okay with spraying an entire organic farm with toxic pesticides.


I would suggest an alternative to the spraying...... The county just wants those pesky thistles dead, they don't really care how. Grab yer shovel, phone a couple three friends with shovels, get y'all's tails out there and dig them out. Problem solved, I'd offer to help but due to health concerns am not able to at this time.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Same wind that made the dust bowl will carry thistle seeds for miles. Depending on what you are growing, there are certain tolerances that have to be met, in order to sell your product for certain prices. Impurities, weed seeds, type of weed seeds might cost someone money, not to mention the extra cost of spraying if you were lucky enough to catch the problem. So there is no difference, making those people not able to sell at organic prices is the same as them making the neighbors get docked at the elevator. There is a finite point where organic methods aren't appropriate beyond a certain scale of operation. If the farm was small enough, they could physically remove the weeds. You can manage weeds through the right crop rotation, and tilling, but that is labor intensive. I always thought that was why organic costed more. Maybe they aren't charging enough for their product, if they can't afford to manage their property.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

painterswife said:


> If you choose to go organic then you must do the work. You don't get to cause problems for your neighbors. Noxious weeds are a real problem here in the west.


Weeds are natural. They probably grow in nearby abandoned fields and on people's lawns. Pretending nature is someone's fault is kinda... laughable. Unless it was an introduced (invasive) species that's causing ecological problems. That I might understand.



Yvonne's hubby said:


> I would suggest an alternative to the spraying...... The county just wants those pesky thistles dead, they don't really care how. Grab yer shovel, phone a couple three friends with shovels, get y'all's tails out there and dig them out. Problem solved, I'd offer to help but due to health concerns am not able to at this time.


That is one option. I'm not sure how plausible it is, but it's something they may have to consider.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Organic farms have a harder time controlling weeds. That's just a fact.


It's not my fault they have a harder time controlling weeds.
They made the choice and now they have to pay the price.
*That* is just a fact. 



> *Why do you want to punish organic farmers?* *You don't like them, you think they're stupid, so you don't mind when government goes after them. You'd change your tune if the government ever went after you in any way.*


I see you can't forego the melodrama and have a rational fact based discussion.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Organic farms have a harder time controlling weeds. That's just a fact. Why do you want to punish organic farmers? You don't like them, you think they're stupid, so you don't mind when government goes after them. You'd change your tune if the government ever went after you in any way.


Apparently you aren’t understanding that this mess of weeds called an organic farm, is taking money out of the pockets of the surrounding farmers.

Let’s see if this makes it clearer. You are on a cross country train trip. All the seats are occupied and assigned. The seat to your left is occupied by a big guy that is drinking. He tells you that when he gets drunk, he throws up. Eventually he throws up in your lap. You are calm and understanding. You go to the restroom and take your pants off, rinse them out as well as you can and return to your seat. You offer the guy an antacid to calm his stomach, but he refuses, “I wouldn’t defile my body with chemicals!”, then he starts tipping the whiskey. You try to explain to him that the stuff he’s swilling is causing the upset and you don’t want him vomiting on your pants again. Again you offer the antacid, but he refuses, yelling to the other passengers that, “ He’s trying to give me drugs. He is a drug pusher.”

Several times he vomits on you and each time you return to the restroom to get his vomit off your clothes.

Finally, the conductor comes over and tells the man, “Everyone around you is sick and tired of your vomiting, caused by your drinking, so you either take an antacid or you will be put off this train at the next stop.” Everyone in that passenger car agrees with the conductor.

So the guy does a selfie video explaining how the conductor is forcing him to take drugs that will kill him. After 12 hours on twitter and facebook, plus a go fund me account, millions watch and refuse to ride that train ever again.

When you do things that result, either primarily or secondarily, that negatively impact others, don’t confuse their initial display of tolerance with weakness.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Weeds are natural. They probably grow in nearby abandoned fields and on people's lawns. Pretending nature is someone's fault is kinda... laughable. Unless it was an introduced (invasive) species that's causing ecological problems. That I might understand.


My God gave me dominion over the fields, it was an order, not a suggestion. It is my duty to eradicate the devil's spawn, plant or animal.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Heritagefarm said:


> Weeds are natural. They probably grow in nearby abandoned fields and on people's lawns. Pretending nature is someone's fault is kinda... laughable. Unless it was an introduced (invasive) species that's causing ecological problems. That I might understand.
> 
> 
> 
> That is one option. I'm not sure how plausible it is, but it's something they may have to consider.


It's not very plausible unless you can get several hundred friends together. Assuming the entire farm is not infested and only maybe a total of fifty acres. One person might clean as much as half acre per week if they work diligently daylight to dark.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Weeds are natural. They probably grow in nearby abandoned fields and on people's lawns. Pretending nature is someone's fault is kinda... laughable. *Unless it was an introduced (invasive) species* that's causing ecological problems. That I might understand.


You mean like Canada Thistle?:



> Canada thistle - *Invasive species*: Minnesota DNR
> 
> *Ecological Threat:*
> 
> ...


http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialplants/herbaceous/canadathistle.html


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Some weeds aren't natural. Ever hear of an invasive species? It's a species that didn't occur in nature, it was transplanted by humans. Not naturally occurring. Plowing land and planting crops is not natural. It provides the specific conditions some of these weeds need to grow.

As for Russian thistles growing in yards and waste areas, provided you are old enough to drive, drive through the upper midwest all the way to the Northwest. Pay attention while you are driving through the flat parts. Tell me what you see, in terms of something besides grain. There might be weeds growing in the city, but not too much in grain country. Probably because there have been laws on the books in these places against letting Russian thistle go to seed, or Johnson grass, for a very long time.

Try to dig up a Russian thistle with a shovel, and you just made a patch of Russian thistles. Every root hair that is left in the soil is a new thistle. You have to plow it under, deep, or keep it cut off without letting it go to seed.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Apparently you aren’t understanding that this mess of weeds called an organic farm, is taking money out of the pockets of the surrounding farmers.
> 
> Let’s see if this makes it clearer. You are on a cross country train trip. All the seats are occupied and assigned. The seat to your left is occupied by a big guy that is drinking. He tells you that when he gets drunk, he throws up. Eventually he throws up in your lap. You are calm and understanding. You go to the restroom and take your pants off, rinse them out as well as you can and return to your seat. You offer the guy an antacid to calm his stomach, but he refuses, “I wouldn’t defile my body with chemicals!”, then he starts tipping the whiskey. You try to explain to him that the stuff he’s swilling is causing the upset and you don’t want him vomiting on your pants again. Again you offer the antacid, but he refuses, yelling to the other passengers that, “ He’s trying to give me drugs. He is a drug pusher.”
> 
> ...


Thanks for the long winded and largely useless post. My point is that all sorts of stuff blows in from everywhere. On the west coast, they be have pollution blowing in from China. You want to go tell China to stop vomiting on us, please? Let me know how it goes. The point is, this here is democracy - the nearby farms have ganged up, along with the government, to attack a small organic farm. You don't care, because you hate organic farmers and think they're stupid. 



haypoint said:


> My God gave me dominion over the fields, it was an order, not a suggestion. It is my duty to eradicate the devil's spawn, plant or animal.


I don't give a rat's behind about your stupid religion. Your religion, with that logic, has caused more human and environmental destruction than anything else in the world. It needs to go.



Yvonne's hubby said:


> It's not very plausible unless you can get several hundred friends together. Assuming the entire farm is not infested and only maybe a total of fifty acres. One person might clean as much as half acre per week if they work diligently daylight to dark.


Yes, it could be quite difficult. Another option might be to use a natural herbicide and mow the fields down - at least then they don't have to wait 10 years for recertification.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

haypoint said:


> My God gave me dominion over the fields, it was an order, not a suggestion. It is my duty to eradicate the devil's spawn, plant or animal.


While we're at it, let's illustrate the absurdity of using religious claims. Here's what Azure believes:



> Stelzer said the farm “made a covenant” to keep the “Common Law” of the bible. He cited Numbers 35:34, “which states that the land must not be defiled or polluted.” Stelzer, then released the video and social media plea to supporters, saying the county’s plan was “possibly to spray the whole farm with poisonous herbicides.”


Of course, since Azure is interpreting the bible differently from you, you still hate them. Whatever. I don't care, and I never will, about your opinion. I fight people like you in real life by writing to my representatives and donating to environmental and organic causes and purchasing organic food.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Heritagefarm. My job for several years was noxious weed control. You really have no idea what it takes to control thistle. I worked on one property for three years with chemical weedkillers and just started to get control after the third year. Thistle does not get killed off with one cycle of cutting it down. It takes years.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

painterswife said:


> Heritagefarm. My job for several years was noxious weed control. You really have no idea what it takes to control thistle. I worked on one property for three years with chemical weedkillers and just started to get control after the third year. Thistle does not get killed off with one cycle of cutting it down. It takes years.


Is it necessary to use government force against a successful farm business and destroy their organic status? It could bankrupt them, depending on their financial status.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

painterswife said:


> If you choose to go organic then you must do the work. You don't get to cause problems for your neighbors. Noxious weeds are a real problem here in the west.


Exactly. My son in laws family owns a very large organic potato farm in Colorado. It's the rural west so same issues with noxious weeds but they work to keep their noxious and invasive weeds under control and don't expect the neighboring farms and ranches to suck it up because they are organic.

There seems to be an odd inclination on some people's part to believe that if a farm is organic they must just be just super nice people and unable to do anything wrong. 
It looks like Azure is flat lying on their video.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> Is it necessary to use government force against a successful farm business and destroy their organic status? It could bankrupt them, depending on their financial status.


Yes it is. If they are infringing on the rights of other property owners around them because they aren't doing what is necessary to control their noxious and invasive weeds.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> Weeds are natural. They probably grow in nearby abandoned fields and on people's lawns. Pretending nature is someone's fault is kinda... laughable. Unless it was an introduced (invasive) species that's causing ecological problems. That I might understand.
> 
> 
> 
> That is one option. I'm not sure how plausible it is, but it's something they may have to consider.


No. the noxious and invasive weeds being fought in the west are not natural. They are from Europe and Asia and they grow u checked in their introduced environment unless action is taken to control them.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> Is it necessary to use government force against a successful farm business and destroy their organic status? It could bankrupt them, depending on their financial status.


If they were dumping raw sewage on their neighbors land, would you think the same?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Heritagefarm said:


> Yes, it could be quite difficult. Another option might be to use a natural herbicide and mow the fields down - at least then they don't have to wait 10 years for recertification.


I have no idea what sort of "natural herbicide" you have in mind for Canadian thistle when they can't hardly be killed with the baddest of the bad. The only thing that slowed them down years ago when I was in the war with them was Tordon, a nasty creature that killed virtually everything. Not perzactly organic if ya get my drift. On another note, nobody is "picking on" the organic farmer here.... Those laws are common sense laws that protect ALL the farmers.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Heritagefarm said:


> Is it necessary to use government force against a successful farm business and destroy their organic status? It could bankrupt them, depending on their financial status.


You are aware that allowing their thistle crop to go unchecked can easily bankrupt those neighbors..... Right?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I have no idea what sort of "natural herbicide" you have in mind for Canadian thistle when they can't hardly be killed with the baddest of the bad. The only thing that slowed them down years ago when I was in the war with them was Tordon, a nasty creature that killed virtually everything. Not perzactly organic if ya get my drift. On another note, nobody is "picking on" the organic farmer here.... Those laws are common sense laws that protect ALL the farmers.


I've loathed Canada thistle more than any other weed, including our nemesis Russian Knapweed. We had very good luck hittingit with RoundUp regularly. Any time the ground was disturbed the Canada thistle would pop up. I absolutely hate it. And if another landowner was not doing their part and increasing my problem, I'd be complaining too.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

painterswife said:


> If they were dumping raw sewage on their neighbors land, would you think the same?


Not the same thing.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> Not the same thing.


No kidding. Does the same damage and I would expect the government to enforce the rules if the people causing the damage don't follow the laws.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> No kidding. Does the same damage and I would expect the government to enforce the rules if the people causing the damage don't follow the laws.


Actually I'd much rather have a handful of raw sewage dumped on my land than a handful of Canadian thistle seed tossed on it! That bit of poo could be dealt with in a matter of minutes, the thistle would most likely be several years... Those seeds don't all germinate the same year, some will still be sprouting and coming up six or seven years down the road!


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## Rectifier (Jun 12, 2011)

I can't believe there is debate over this. We spent years ridding a quarter of Canada thistle. There is no more damaging and persistent weed. We bought a piece of land with a serious thistle problem and 5 years later it's finally "clean".

Sadly to my organic-minded ways, the only way to truly clean up thistle was to take advantage of modern technology and grow RR canola, spray glyphosate repeatedly, rotate to wheat and use multiple applications of 2,4-D, then Clearfield lentils. Then back to cereal and more group 4. Hot spring burndown and pre-harvest glyphosate every year when possible. Burn off the top growth with group 4, or attack the roots with glyphosate. Spike up the patches in the fall to expose and freeze the root. Every year we beat them back until there are only a few isolated plants. We are now free to seed the quarter down to hay and quit spraying.

We are still chasing thistle patches in adjoining pastures, but are limited in what we can use in-crop and obviously can't use tillage. I personally will not apply Tordon 22k (picloram) due to its extreme persistence and mobility. I bush hog thistle when it runs to flower or spray 2,4-D ester for its rapid effect.

I don't like chemicals but I was forced to use them to beat thistle. I would be furious if a neighbour started letting them run wild, especially while I'm establishing my hay this year and my crop is basically defenseless.

Noxious weed laws exist for a reason and it's not to crush small farmers or organic farmers. It's to control noxious weeds for God's sake!


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

It looks like a favorable outcome is in the near future for Azure Standard AND their neighbors. I got this in my email this evening from the Azure folks:

(I will be following this very closely and will share anything that I find about how they plan on dealing with the dreaded Canadian Thistle in a responsible manner.)


Dear (I have omitted my real name from this letter),

We have some great news to share with you.

Tonight we had a very productive meeting with the county commission and weed board officials in Moro, Sherman County, Oregon. 
First, we would like to thank our loyal supporters for helping to spread the word and for voicing your concerns about the threat we faced. Sherman County reportedly received over 40,000 emails to date about the matter. You helped to open up a whole new level of debate about organic farming, and about the benefits of clean, healthy food.

Thank you.

The county commission has now agreed to work with us on a proper weed plan that does not include the use of toxic chemicals, and we would like to thank them for their level-headed approach to working together with Azure Farm.

There are still a couple of meetings we will have with the county officials to work out the final implementation of this plan but we are now very optimistic that this will work out in a good way for all concerned.

Thank you for your support!

Sincerely,


David Cross
Director of Marketing
…and everyone at Azure Farm and Azure Standard

-----




.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I'm sure they just got a letter from the county. Outlining the fact that they were not in compliance, and the consequences of not being in compliance. They submitted a management plan, if they make progress with it, the county will get off their back. This is all there ever was. If Azures farm got sprayed by the county, it would have been Azure farms own doing. I'm sure the corporate executive will spend all the money they collected from concerned organic activists on tools to combat invasive weeds, and not adding an addition to his compound to house more "followers", or whatever.

These people concerned for the environment, they don't seem to understand it. Things like Russian thistle are bad for the environment. Except for a few finches and a couple of moths, they don't do much for wildlife. They crowd out other plants with dense stands where they are the only species. There are lots of native plants that provide food and cover for wildlife, I doubt Azure planted any of those, aerial photos I have seen of their operation looked like they were going for the most possible production, with the least possible labor, like any corporate farm.

I have no animosity whatsoever to organic, I question some of the stuff that commercially gets sprayed on fruits and vegetables close to harvest. But I've always been suspect of many organic producers, especially the larger ones. Very few are practicing sustainable agriculture. They pump water from ancient aquifers, use substitute chemicals rampantly, increase fuel usage and labor, and all sorts of things that don't fit the sustainable agriculture footprint.

I think the stupid laws here are the ones governing organic certification. It shouldn't take ten years to get a field back into organic production. There is no science to support that. I see organic farmers here, who have had their farm a relatively short time, who bought their farm from someone that used a lot of chemicals and technology to make a farm out of a bunch of rocks, weeds, and brambles. Now those farms are going back to the wild, productive land is being lost. They are benefiting from someone else's hard work, at the same time that they are condemning the methods used to make their farm a farm. If chemicals like roundup take ten years to go away, some of the stuff they used back in the fifties is probably still there, not really, but it should be a consideration in organic certification. This is one of the beefs I always had with organic livestock production. You can't use drugs and vaccines. You can fill them up with Shackley's basic H, but you can't vaccinate them. If you study any amount of immunology, it is pretty evident that these pockets of non vaccinated stock are riding the coattails of everyone around them that does vaccinate. I'm sure it is the same in crop production. The organic farms are relying on everyone else to provide their weed control, their neighbors, and the people that farmed before them. When they let things get out of hand, they could increase the amount of chemicals in the environment, even though they don't use any. Their premise for not using any is largely to keep those chemicals out of the environment. They have failed in that regard.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

CajunSunshine said:


> The county commission has now agreed to work with us on a proper weed plan that does not include the use of toxic chemicals, and we would like to thank them for their level-headed approach to working together with Azure Farm.


I said all along they wouldn't be forced to use chemicals if they simply controlled the problem themselves. 

All the media hype was free advertising for them as well as an attempt to play "victim".


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

I don't understand the 10 years thing. Original certification only requires 3 years from the last application of banned stuff.
There are waivers for emergency applications required by federal or state agencies that will allow organic farms to use the chemical to fix the emergency and not lose their qualification. They will not be able to ship the crop as organic for 3 years but don't have to worry about re certifying. You don't automatically lose your certification. There is a procedure to be followed for noncompliance.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Somehow a line in the sand has been drawn and everyone has taken sides. Because of this the anti-chemical group seems to see all chemicals as evil, everything gets into the food, it all gets into our groundwater, streams and rivers, insecticides, herbicides, fungicides are all likely to kill every plant, animal or insect it touches.

There has been little incentive for the anti-chemical group to learn about pesticides or bagged fertilizer. I think some would rather see their farm be overtaken by an invasive weed than read the label on a jug of Glyphosate.

In my very rural area, there are over two dozen non-native invasive weeds. I do everything I can to control weeds without chemicals. But at times, I must resort to chemical controls. But I only use herbicides that don't harm insects, can't get into my groundwater and I use the minimum required to be effective and never spray near water. But as I try to explain to the anti-chemical group, I'm looked at like I'm pro-chemicals at least and pro-Monsanto at worst. But I'm really just a realist.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

If you look at what is happening with antibiotics it is a good indication of things to come. People screamed and hollered about antibiotics in our meat until the government decided to do something. There might come a time when you give an animal a shot, you need to call a vet out. That will make it hard on small farmers. Big farms probably already have a vet on payroll.

What if people keep screaming about weed killer killing us all and the government starts listening. Pesticide applicators license at the extension office is no longer good enough, you need to hire a commercial applicator. How's that going to go for your small farmer. Big farmers will cut corners now and again, what happens when they end up upwind of a small organic farm, and they've been skipping weed killer, buying less effective stuff because of regulations, or what have you?

Wonder how many of the people that buy organic food to save the environment, live in a residential neighborhood and spray, or their HOA pays someone to spray roundup on errant blades of grass protruding from between the sidewalk cracks. I've seen people spraying directly on concrete, ten feet away from a storm drain with thunder rumbling. It's not farms killing the environment, it's these darned yards.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

> How's that going to go for your small farmer.


It's not good. Local places have a 200 dollar minimum fee plus the chemicals. Used to be 70 bucks to spray my 2 acres of field corn now its over 250.
I have been looking into refurbing my old 3 point sprayer and going with RR corn and just spraying glyphosate myself since it's not restricted.


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