# So lets say the economy collapsed...



## DENALI (Mar 25, 2008)

..... other than metals and knowledge what would be the most valuable commodities to have on hand for barter? Toilet paper? Whisky?


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## SLD Farm (Dec 19, 2007)

My vote is Coffee, Spices, Sugar and Salt. Also pain medications and antibiotics for medical concerns.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

beans and rice, pumpkin seeds

potatoes (beans pumpkin seeds and potatoes can be sown as well as eaten)

gardening tools and compost

canning jar lids

bunnies, bantam chickens

I'm not going to barter with bullets and beer...keeping them for myself.

Toilet paper is not on the list...I'll switch to flannel/water as needed


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Yup Alcohol.At first.


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## DENALI (Mar 25, 2008)

mpillow said:


> bantam chickens



Why bantam chickens over a standard size?


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## SpaceCadet12364 (Apr 27, 2003)

DENALI said:


> Why bantam chickens over a standard size?


Smaller, maybe less noticeable, possibly less noisy compared to other breeds? Foraging instincts may be usually better in banties too, from what little I know about chickens. Just guessing here.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

bantam chickens are very broody (set on eggs till hatched) and mine reproduce (free ranged) prolifically even here in Maine

Standard chickens have had a lot of the broodiness bred out of them


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

The economy isn't likely to collapse THAT far. You may just be looking at simpler products. I wouldn't trade ANYTHING for toilet paper. My backside ain't THAT precious and there will be plenty of phone books around. Whiskey? No. Homemade beer or wine? Maybe, depending upon who makes it.

Skills will be what keeps you going through the economy. Can you knit me a thick wool sweater and three pairs of thick wool socks? I'd trade a pair of spring lambs for that. 

If you look at trade goods circa 1880 then you could get a good idea of what might be good. Can you take iron from an old broken down truck and make a shovel or a hoe? Broadhead arrows or a good knife? You'll be in good shape.

If you think you're going to survive by stockpiling a few items then let me put it as clear as I possibly can: _you're going to die._


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## michelleIL (Aug 29, 2004)

LOL Ernie
At least I'll be apt to deal with in those first few months as I make my way thru the stash of folgers


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Food of any kind, hungry people will trade or do ANYTHING for food. When a person is hungry enough, they'll eat whatever is in front of them. The days of preferences will be gone. They'll simply need to stop the hunger pangs for themselves and their loved ones. 

Ernie, I'd make that trade if you tossed in a pair of breeding bunnies (and lived close enough to trade).  Thankfully I have lots of yarn, wool, and the spinning wheel to turn the wool into yarn. Also lots of fabrics in both light and heavy weights. Tons of stuff left over from the old reenactor days.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

I think most of us have plenty of clothes on hand so that skills such as knitting, crochet, sewing weaving...won't be needed so soon...all good skills though.

Food/water will be foremost, fuel next...provided you have shelter/land


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2009)

Tampons.


They are a good source of semi-sterile cotton, they can be used to 'plug' a large puncture wound and well, women will still need them.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

Toilet paper would only be precious I think in the beginning before reality sets in then people will not barter for that IMO..they will do without or use cloths.

Whiskey might barter well.. but think of the type of folks you would be bartering with... some might be problematic if they are willing to barter necessities for alcohol..


I think food/seeds/wood for heat will always be the best bartering..maybe some fuels but they are hard to store...


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2009)

I've always thought bonded liquor would be the best for bartering.


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## 7.62mmFMJ (Nov 19, 2008)

Lead and brass! 
Guns and ammo.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Ernie said:


> If you look at trade goods circa 1880 then you could get a good idea of what might be good. Can you take iron from an old broken down truck and make a shovel or a hoe? Broadhead arrows or a good knife? You'll be in good shape.
> 
> If you think you're going to survive by stockpiling a few items then let me put it as clear as I possibly can: _you're going to die._


Heh, if I don't got it and don't have the money I make it or adapt things. One time I went on a camping trip out in the woods with a friend of mine. We took a canoe and went down the river so there wasn't going to be any quick running to a store if we forgot something. Well Murphy struck and I remembered after going about an hour down the river that we had forgot to pack TP, utensils, and plates. I had an iron skillet, knife, and an axe. My friend and I made plates, utensils, and a spatula out of the stuff we had plus a tree. 

Another time I had an old pickup that had a bad fuel pump. Not having much in the way of cash at the time I took a motorcycle gas tank and strapped it on the roof. It worked, truck got me around for a couple of months like that. Made for interesting conversations at gas stations. Another example of making something out of junk is my homemade "brushhog" built out of an old bed frame, a large pallet, and some weight. The crisscrossing wires in the bed frame shear the grass off. It may not look as nice as a real brush hog but it keeps the grass down and was free 

Getting back to the OP, if the economy collapsed this winter (as in total panic no control) I guess most people would need food. I am included in this since I put away precious little this winter. Man can not live pine needles and bark alone. Ammo would be a good thing to have. Best to have the most popular calibers on hand. 22lr, 12 gauge, 30-0-06 are the three most common calibers around in here in my neck of the woods. Gasoline or home brewed alcohol fuel would another thing I could see people wanting.


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## Scott in Florida Panhandl (May 10, 2002)

Condoms


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Scott in Florida Panhandl said:


> Condoms


Read up on cycles and timing.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

stanb999 said:


> Read up on cycles and timing.


Or just having babies. Every mouth comes with a pair of hands.

If you're trying to provide for your own food on a homestead somewhere, you can't have too many kids. Especially well-armed, strong sons.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Ernie said:


> Or just having babies. Every mouth comes with a pair of hands.
> 
> If you're trying to provide for your own food on a homestead somewhere, you can't have too many kids. Especially well-armed, strong sons.


Watch yourself now...my daughter is a good shot and she knits better than her brother! She saved the garden by shooting the woodchuck this summer.

My strong son is less likely to do something without being asked...and gets grossed out when daughter helps deliver the baby goats....

My girls are productive...whereas the boy just EATS and dirties laundry and plays with the tractor and guns....and golf.


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## DENALI (Mar 25, 2008)

stanb999 said:


> Read up on cycles and timing.


.....and here i thought you were talking about tuning a harley


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I would never barter away ammo. To much chance it could end up being used against me and mine. Anyone who is willing to give something valuable enough to get ammo, has a use in mind, and that use just might be to get back his barter goods. :viking:


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## marvella (Oct 12, 2003)

1. CLEAN water.
2. knowing how to build a fire.
3. foraging skills.

lots of children for labor also means that many more mouths to feed.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Scott in Florida Panhandl said:


> Condoms


Great for making explosives/detonators waterproof

Non-hybrid seeds
Non-power farm implements
The big cushy pads that my wife hates are great for wounds...


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## stranger (Feb 24, 2008)

after looking at all the obese people in this country, i would say fritos, chips, soda,hot dogs,cheeze and all the other garbage they eat. many people wouldn't even know what some of the above mentioned things are.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

stranger said:


> after looking at all the obese people in this country, i would say fritos, chips, soda,hot dogs,cheeze and all the other garbage they eat. many people wouldn't even know what some of the above mentioned things are.


Then don't forget the Twinkies - they have an indefinite shelf life....


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Labor is the oldest barterable item I can think of.
Honesty and integrity follow closely behind.

If I were asked what to do to prepare, I'd say learn to deliver babies....and that includes how best to nurture a woman from conception to a month after delivery. 
Learn to treat burns, set bones, stitch deeper wounds.

Like Ernie touched upon, set up and learn blacksmithing.
One area that Ernie and I disagree on is the extent to which things will change.
Back in the 20's, the first three bartering items I mentioned were in abundant supply, though perhaps not universal. Today, one week of total deprivation and the chaos that followed would snowball indefinitely. The supply lines would be cut by any of dozens of weak links. Potable water would go quickly. Groceries and typical hardware would follow.
Without a happy work force, the utilities would go down, looting would rise to an all time deafening crescendo and getting back to a sustainable stability
will be impossible. 

The house of cards that we are witnessing begin to tremble was not set up to fail by flesh and blood, per se, but by principalities and powers in high places.
The battle that rages for this earth and realm has been raging so for eons
and the evil that drives it has been gaining experience all along. The perfect storm that is coming is the cumulation of frustrating setbacks and regroupings and the evil is dripping vile spit in anticipation.
We sit in "church", singing the songs and sharing the praises, oblivious to the welling hell of demonic lava that seethes just beyond our physical perceptions. When the dam breaks, no amount of physical preparation will save you. We will be sifted and winnowed as grain, and only those who have sought to cultivate their benevolent spiritual side will dare hope to survive, and that likely not even in the physical sense.

In the thick of it all, it will be what you sacrifice of yourself for your neighbor, your brother and even the stranger's sake, that saves you.

God help this fractionalized, isolated and individualistic nation.
Looking out for number one is just about to receive the bill.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Herbal medicines of ALL kinds but especially medicines for women to allow them to either prevent conception or to use as abortifacients. During the first 4 - 5 years after an economic collapse I'm positive that not many enlightened women would want the burden of babies brought into such tough times.

.


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## howie (Nov 19, 2009)

I had an interesting conversation with my brother tonight regarding this very topic. I think wondering what I could barter with will be very low on my list of priorities. The trick will be to survive with what you already have.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Black pepper.

It'll return to its traditional medieval use... to flavor meat that's turning or turned south. Without refrigeration, 99% of the population (not the folks on this site, of course! ) will not be able to enjoy meat. Meat doesn't last long without processing of some sort. [think of the McCandles guy that died of starvation right outside of Denali NP a few years back, after killing a moose, and not knowing or being able to preserve the meat]. It won't take long for any 'survivor' to realize that meat is precious, and what might have been thrown in the trash or to the dogs traditionally, now has to be eaten, slightly off or totally off. Black pepper and other spices will mask the off flavors...

I keep a few extra bricks of .22lr around... I'd only trade them after most of the evildoer's have died off, and then only to folks I trust with my life.

TP is a waste of space. Unless someone owns a TP warehouse, you'll eventually run out, and face a non-tp universe.

A blacksmithing set up, with all the tools, and a great pile of metal, is a great thing to have... old time blacksmiths could make anything out of metal.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

PhilJohnson said:


> we had forgot to pack TP, utensils, and plates. I had an iron skillet, knife, and an axe. My friend and I made plates, utensils, and a spatula out of the stuff we had plus a tree.
> 
> .


plates are for sissies, eat out of the pot (j/k)


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

naturelover said:


> Herbal medicines of ALL kinds but especially medicines for women to allow them to either prevent conception or to use as abortifacients. During the first 4 - 5 years after an economic collapse I'm positive that not many enlightened women would want the burden of babies brought into such tough times.
> 
> .


there's more to a baby than "burden", I'm thankful my grandma wasn't enlightened back when, Depression, no money, back breaking picking endless potatoes, no money...my baby mother was a joy to everyone concerned.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

wyld thang - I think the point naturelover is making is that in THIS DAY and AGE (not back when folks were generally tougher) many that are use to conviences will not think they can handle the pregnancy (with out many doc visits) and the birth (without hospital and epidurals) and then raising a child without the baby doc and all the meds, throwaway diapers, and such.

We all have heard about how our Grandparents, and sometimes even our Parents had more abilities to do things without all the ease we have today. They are our teachers of how to survive should the whole current life situation get worse.

Angie


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## meanwhile (Dec 13, 2007)

What does that mean " if the economy collapses"??? What would happen? Somehow all the money is no good or just that things are too expensive? Or does it mean that suddenly we are invaded and some other country brings their money here? I don't get it -- I know we all need to be prepared for most anything...but what does that mean to have an economy collapse?


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

"the economy" means only the present economy that is measured in spending, building and credit.

There will ALWAYS be a "an economy"... no matter how bad it gets. Collapse in this instance would mean that the dollar collapses and many people would be faced with dollars that are equivalent to pesos and the resulting consequence of it.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

PhilJohnson said:


> Another time I had an old pickup that had a bad fuel pump. Not having much in the way of cash at the time I took a motorcycle gas tank and strapped it on the roof. It worked, truck got me around for a couple of months like that. Made for interesting conversations at gas stations. Another example of making something out of junk is my homemade "brushhog" built out of an old bed frame, a large pallet, and some weight. The crisscrossing wires in the bed frame shear the grass off. It may not look as nice as a real brush hog but it keeps the grass down and was free


I'm thinking that it's _that_ kind of mechanical know-how that'll be quite valuable. It's paid off handsomely for my DH many times over the years and made him somewhat of a legend around these parts. Being able to make something useful out of odds-n-ends, bits-n-scraps is a rare skill these days.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

AngieM2 said:


> wyld thang - I think the point naturelover is making is that in THIS DAY and AGE (not back when folks were generally tougher) many that are use to conviences will not think they can handle the pregnancy (with out many doc visits) and the birth (without hospital and epidurals) and then raising a child without the baby doc and all the meds, throwaway diapers, and such.
> 
> We all have heard about how our Grandparents, and sometimes even our Parents had more abilities to do things without all the ease we have today. They are our teachers of how to survive should the whole current life situation get worse.
> 
> Angie


aw you're so diplomatic! no I've seen this statement many times(not just from NL and I'm trying to respond to that idea which has come down through the ages since obviously there are herby things you can take to make you"regular",)

the thing is--this "enlightened" thinking is ignorant and oblivious of the miracle each one of us is, no appreciation for the collective YES(or even a WHATEVER) each one of our ancestors chose that makes our whirl at this life possible. That respect and thankfulness for life and its raw bloody grrr to survive is exactly what we need in tough times.

Guess this is a sore spot since I did the math and figured out my mom was born full term 7.5 months after my grandparents eloped, and I'm finding all sorts of mailorder pamphlets and order forms for "natural remedies" to make you "regular". There by the grace of God I exist. 

They kinda dealt with this in Defiance :goodjob:


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## QuiltingLady2 (Jan 3, 2007)

We just missed a collapse like the 30's. 

We will have to trade closer to home. Since those nice trucks that bring all of our supplies wouldn't be able to get credit to pay employee's, diesel bills, etc. 
Well, anything that runs it's day to day on a credit line would be gone for at least a time. So, that would be about everything. 

But, folks the only way this could happen is if China decided to call in payments on all the money we have borrowed from them. 

And really what good would that do China when we buy much of it's goods? Cut off their nose to spite their faces? That doesn't make monietary sense. And we know that China runs on money making sense. 

So, for the time being, Americans are saving more and spending less. Let's just hope we continue to. Then this nightmare of a senario will not happen. 

I still vote for toliet paper, a good clean water source, and woodstove.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

QuiltingLady2 said:


> We just missed a collapse like the 30's.
> 
> We will have to trade closer to home. Since those nice trucks that bring all of our supplies wouldn't be able to get credit to pay employee's, diesel bills, etc.
> Well, anything that runs it's day to day on a credit line would be gone for at least a time. So, that would be about everything.
> ...


Actually saving more and spending less will make China more likely to dump the dollar. The only reason why China finances us is because we are China's cash cow. With the prospect of a general decline in earning power of the US consumer that isn't likely to come back it will become increasingly unattractive for China to finance US government debt. About a week ago there was a statement from a Chinese official who was worried about a dollar decline because of China's massive holdings of our currency. Since a couple of the underlying factors of the current recession haven't been addressed (massive trade deficit, decline of good paying manufacturing jobs) the likely hood of the US being able to continue on any sort of path to recovery is highly unlikely.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> We just missed a collapse like the 30's


We havent missed it yet. Dont let BO fool you into thinking this is improving


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> We havent missed it yet. Dont let BO fool you into thinking this is improving


There is a coming world economic collapse. A definite (more than) possibility. If you take a look at what is going on in Europe, Russia, etc., etc. you will find that there are some very "scary" things happening economically. Those of us in the tin foil trade see this collapse as an engineered happening - one to create a "New World Order" out of necessity. There IS going to be an economic collapse and not too many are going to be prepared - especially those of the Dorito, Oreo, Twinkie mind-set - OR of the liberal socialists who are screaming for Barack Hussein Obama to create "his" world.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

This is in response to Wild Thang's objections to my post about birth control.

This topic is about barter in the event of economic collapse and I agree with what Forerunner wrote, that if there is an economic collapse it could be on a magnitude that would send us back into the dark ages. He also said "_If I were asked what to do to prepare, I'd say learn to deliver babies....and that includes how best to NURTURE a woman from conception to a month after delivery_." These are the words of a compassionate and understanding husband who obviously cherishes his wife and children and wants to keep them alive and healthy. I would take that one step further and say that a woman needs to be nurtured prior to conception and all throughout breast-feeding. 

If an economic collapse drives us back into the dark ages many women will become disposable brood-mares. Many women will be forced to barter their bodies for sex or be pressed into demeaning servitude just so they can survive and women like that won't be able to afford to get pregnant. There will be married women who do want babies but will want to space them out in accordance with how they can be provided for and also conserve their own health and stamina so they can produce healthy babies. There will be very young girls who get sold into marriage and become child-mothers because their own parents couldn't feed them because they had an indiscriminate number of babies, keeping the boys and bartering off the girls at puberty. 
&#12288;
I think babies should be born because they're wanted for their own sake ..... for the sake of having babies for the love of them and for the nurturing of them. 

Not because a woman (like your potato-picking grandma - and my back-broken grandmothers too, who had 12 and 13 children each, half of whom died), has no choice or knowledge or control over her own body. Not because she is the property of her husband who gets children on her as a brood-mare so he has extra hands to be used or bartered as child slave-labour or commodities to make the husband's life easier and more profitable.

Women like these will need the services of a knowledgeable midwife-herbalist-alternative healthcare practioner who is willing to barter. I will be only too happy to barter with them, to cater to their needs and dispense whatever medications they need, even if it has to be done in secret and against the wishes of the sanctimonious. And I will teach them what they need to know so that they can pass that knowledge on to their own daughters and grand-daughters.

.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

meanwhile said:


> What does that mean " if the economy collapses"??? What would happen? Somehow all the money is no good or just that things are too expensive? Or does it mean that suddenly we are invaded and some other country brings their money here? I don't get it -- I know we all need to be prepared for most anything...but what does that mean to have an economy collapse?


America lives on diesel. All our real goods, and food, are delivered by truck and trains. If Iran attacks Israel or Israel attacks Iran, fuel will become very difficult to find. If several refineries are shut down, or destroyed, the trucks will stop moving. They stop moving, no more fuel, no more food, no more nothing... what you have on hand is what you have. The situation would cascade very quickly. Can you imagine what happens in three days, without any food in the grocery stores? No Micky D's. No fuel to go to work? No trains to haul coal for electric plants?

We live in very precarious times. People are specialized. We have just-in-time deliveries, for everything. One little cog gets broke, and the wheel falls off.


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## Vashti (Dec 22, 2006)

Not only do we live in a "got to have it now" lifestyle, many are trying to encourage and promote it. With many switching to raw food diets, and wanting to eat only organic produce (without growing it themselves) they are only too happy to shop weekly or even daily for their dinner. Not only that, but they have no idea where their food comes from, and any opportunity to vote that has to do with farmers or the country communities, ends up in the worse for us because "who cares what happens in the country, let them pay more taxes, I live in the city". Ugh thanks a lot city slickers.

I don't plan on purchasing anything extra for barter, but if I happen to have some excess in my preps that I can spare if I find a hole, then I'll have to barter it. However, I've learned to sew my own sanitary pads, and I figure that once women realize that the truck with the tampons and pads isn't coming, they'll be wanting an alternative. I can sell extra or show them how to make them myself. I also have other sewing skills, crochet, and can make my own cheese. I figure those skills and the ones I'm working on now will be better bartering material than goods that I need to use myself for my family. I figure that I'd rather spend what money I have on my own preps, and the time I have increasing my skill set.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

If I could think of anything to barter it would be flour. Many a family lived for years during the great depression off of flour and water biscuits and gravy. Flour isn't that easy to keep though in the long term and it would be a vital part of keeping my family alive so I doubt I'd have any to spare. 

Besides that: Drinkable water, dry cell batteries, matches, and any kind of petroleum products. Oil in any form can be "home refined" with the right amount of engenuity if need be.


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## Blu3duk (Jun 2, 2002)

DENALI said:


> ..... other than metals and knowledge what would be the most valuable commodities to have on hand for barter? Toilet paper? Whisky?



shovels to bury the dead, 
cardboard boxes to place the dead bodies in as wood is harder to come by,
 bibles to help those who read over the dead as they wear theirs out.
 glass to replace windows in Wall street high rises.

Like texican says, the economy depends way to much on fuel for trucks and trains, and without those running, just how are people gonna get the food to stave off starvation. Like forerunner says what about potable water? 3 days without food is one thing, 3 days without water and more than likely you are a gonner, though some will last a wee bit longer i am sure. 

Buy a Vertigro hydroponic unit, then build several off that idea or buy them if ya aint handy, and get ready to grow extry greens, add in some 12 volt LED grow light panels and make those too or buy extry for trade and dont ferget the solar charger and deep cycle batteries if you want to go "unattended" it is not a "end all" as there wil be problems having these [one of the units require about 4 pounds of water soluble nutrients per 12 months of continuous running, ergo you are gonna need a pallet of it stored too] 

In the original question also made a statement about metals, during a collapse in the beginning precious metals wont do most folks any good, after a period of time has passed they may again be used to move goods and services both local and distant as they have traditionally done in the past. A chunk of silver dropped in a gallon of milk will help keep the bacteria count "lower" and keep the milk fresh longer depending upon the ambient temperature and humidity, drinking from cups with silver plate on the *inside* will help the same. using garlic sliced and placed over your meats will keep them fresher longer but wont keep the flies and larva count down much should the flies find your meat..... these "things" are tradable, but also come with *KNOWING* before hand and *REMEMBERING* when it counts. Other metals will be valueable too, and just a couple of years back a lot of folks picked through waht was laing around as china needed used metal to melt down and ship to Dubai for their extravegant building projects funded mostly by dollars paid by oil companies who in turn passed that along to their customers..... so a lot of metal is no longer available for future use in blacksmithing [have ya tried to smith with metal off these current vehicles?]

Personally i think folks are better off worrying about how they are gonna get through such a collapse themself before they worry over what to stock back for trading to others...... preparing to make it so you and your family can get through a disater of most every type will give you the skillset to make it through a economic crash better than most folks. If you are not in a trading business now, what makes you think you are gonna prosper during a crash of that spectrum...... it gonna take just about everything a person can muster to even make it through without trying to barter with others for things they dont have either....

Just an opinion. If i was a prophet perhaps I could profit, see.

William
Idaho


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

Until the initial crisis passes and the new way stabilizes, I think it would be extremely dangerous to stick your head outside your door to trade, barter, lend a helping hand etc. The key to surviving until stability of some sort returns is to remain as invisible as possible. That might mean eating only cold food so the neighbors or someone passing by won't smell cooking odors. It definitely means no one should know you have food or other goods unless you're willing to fight to keep them and, if there are many people starving, they will keep coming until you lose. Under the radar, way under is where you want to be. After things stabize enough that a market place (think flea market) comes into existence then you can barter goods. I would not barter guns or ammo that could in turn be used against you. Even then if you give the appearance of having supplies, you might have someone following you home to help themselves and yes over your dead body.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

QuiltingLady2 said:


> We just missed a collapse like the 30's.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


We didn't miss the collapse, it's still headed our way, and this one will be much worse than the 30's. In the 30's the gov had money. They started "make work" projects so men could have jobs. Today the gov is deep in debt and will have to cut programs, not start new ones. Food stamps will be cut or vanish all together, social security will either be drastically cut or vanish, so will housing subsidies, medicare & medicaid, farm subsidies, along with many other programs. There will be no more bailouts to save those companies that are "to big to fail" (that have already failed!) Gov will be pretty much non-functioning when it comes to financial help to the public.

China has already expressed their concern over this massive HC bill that congress is trying to shove down our throats. They basically told us that we can't afford it. They should know since they are the ones we are depending on to finance it for us. They are also pretty PO'd about the stuffed gold bars. They have been making adjustments for several years and are to the point that they don't need to sell to us if they don't want to. They have courted other countries and have set themselves up in a fairly good position. They could call our debts in the near future. 

It's coming. I wish I was wrong, but it's gone so far now that there's no way to avoid it. Ten years ago we could have stopped it, but now it's not a matter of IF, it's simply a matter of WHEN. My guess is that we have 6 months left if we are lucky. If we are extremely blessed, we might have a year. But don't discount the possibility that we could only have a few weeks. Many companies will fail when they don't make the profit they depend on during the Christmas season. That will be the beginning of the commercial bubble bursting. Once that one goes, the next to go is the dollar bubble. 

IF enough borrowed money is pumped into the system it might keep the economy hanging on for a while longer, but we can't continue spending money we don't have. The day will come when the borrowing ends (foreign investors won't support us forever) then it'll be time to pay back the loans. If we can't survive without borrowed money now, how can we survive paying back the debt in addition to the loss of borrowed money in the future? It can't be done. 

Right now the Dems are in complete control. They will do their best to hold things together and make it appear that the economy is improving so they can win seats in the midterm election. They might or might not be able to accomplish that.


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## Randy Rooster (Dec 14, 2004)

[think of the McCandles guy that died of starvation right outside of Denali NP a few years back, after killing a moose, and not knowing or being able to preserve the meat


McCandless didnt starve due to lack of food. He ate a poisonous plant that made his system not able to turn food into fuel. He literally starved to death but not due to lack of food.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I gotta admit I'm getting a bit of a chuckle out of this thread. Pumpkin seeds? Bantam chickens? _Really?_

Look at any place in the world where the economy has collapsed in recent years and you're not going to find a bunch of people peacefully scratching out a living as subsistence farmers and trading livestock, a la "Little House on the Prairie." Oh H-E-double-hockey-sticks NO!

An economic collapse is basically a societal collapse. When this happens, the smartest/safest thing to do is hunker down in a well-fortified, defensible position and wait for civil order to be restored. (There are a few problems with this, but more on that later.)

First off, you will have rioting anywhere there are large numbers of people. Humans are pack animals, and when frightened, they will throng, and where you have crowds, you will have conflicts, and these inevitably will escalate. 

Two people will be on the move early in a economic collapse: looters and refugees. Looters are folks who take advantage of a crisis to wreak mayhem, burn, pillage, rape and just generally have a good time. Refugees are folks who have been burned out, driven from their homes by fear of violence, or who have run out of some essential commodity and must go out in search of it. Sometimes the line between looters and refugees blurs, such as when refugees break into houses or shops in search of food, water, etc. 

The most highly-sought-after commodities under these circumstances (and hence the best trade goods) are going to be: 

Weapons (especially guns and ammo)
Fuel (especially gasoline and diesel)
Potable water
Life-sustaining drugs
Illegal drugs/Alcohol
Food

The importance of some of the items on this list is variable depending on how long the crisis lasts. For instance, many people rely on life-sustaining drugs and probably will go to great lengths to get them, but most probably have a 30- to 90-day supply of these drugs on hand. On the flip side, there are fewer heroin addicts, meth heads and hardcore alcoholics, but these folks generally don't stockpile their drugs of choice and thus will be looking for a fix quickly. 

There's a lot of food out there, even discounting what will be lost to burning and looting. Most homes probably contain enough food (rationed) to feed the occupants for a couple weeks. I'd guess most contain only a few gallons of potable liquids, though. Groceries stores probably have 10 aisles of food to every 1 of drinks. Liquids will run out long before food, and if the grid is down, and wells inoperable, drinking water will be at a premium. 

In short order, most people will become refugees, seeking shelter in a population center where they will be fed and protected by whatever authority remains in existence (FEMA, the Red Cross, state and local government, or even self-styled warlords). 

A few will become scavengers, moving from place to place and looting, trading or taking by force what they need to survive. 

The aforementioned smart people will hunker down and try to outlast the crisis. 

It probably will be a long time before anyone manages to grow pumpkins, though! 

It takes, what, 100 days or so for most seeds to mature? Most would-be subsistence farmers won't have the provisions to wait out the harvest, and will become refugees. 

The other problem is protecting the crop from scavengers. Yes, if you're armed to the teeth, you might manage to pick off the advance scout of a marauding party, but there's a strong possibility his friends will return in the night to burn your house down. There's a reason medieval castles were built out of stone, and had moats. An ordinary house really isn't much of a defensible structure.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Randy Rooster said:


> [think of the McCandles guy that died of starvation right outside of Denali NP a few years back, after killing a moose, and not knowing or being able to preserve the meat
> 
> 
> McCandless didnt starve due to lack of food. He ate a poisonous plant that made his system not able to turn food into fuel. He literally starved to death but not due to lack of food.


Absolutely correct!

I've patrolled the immediate area where he died... never had a desire to actually visit the bus.

He was eating poisonous plants because all of his moose meat rotted... if he'd been prepared for preserving it correctly, he wouldn't have resorted to eating poisonous plants. So, I was sorta in a roundabout way right, or rightish.


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## mpillow/mpillow (Nov 10, 2009)

Considering that everything that comes to Maine comes on a truck in mid winter....I'm sticking by my answers....the birds and buns are small enough to come inside if needed. People here will move in droves to the South or to Utah to raid the LDS

Potatoes in 45 days, pumpkins 100, green beans 50, dry beans 90

Pumpkins are one of the most perfect livestock feeds and good people feeds....and I can hide over a ton in my crawlspace...growing that will require seeds...and security no doubt....but not to the degree that those of you who live near population centers

I'm going to hunker down and eat eggs, chicken, bunny and pumpkin pie and I'm betting by harvesting time....lots of people have gone "away" of course YMMV

Water is not a problem here....lots of help yourself springs for drinking water
I'm not trading weapons or booze....period.... or fuel for the tractor.

I can even go further North if needed...


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

willow_girl said:


> Look at any place in the world where the economy has collapsed in recent years and you're not going to find a bunch of people peacefully scratching out a living as subsistence farmers and trading livestock, a la "Little House on the Prairie." Oh H-E-double-hockey-sticks NO!
> 
> The most highly-sought-after commodities under these circumstances (and hence the best trade goods) are going to be:
> 
> ...


I agree with this. Most people are creatures of opportunity (looters), a few people like to be boss (warlords and the like), and some like to be left alone (survivalist). Really the best place to be during a collapse would be far away from others with a setup where you don't have to barter or barter very little for what you need.


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

i expect the gov't to continue doing what gov't does (ie, control things--not provide services) even during an economic crisis. if you have a mortgage, you'll still owe the monthly payment even if you lose your job, and even if the US$ drops 50% in value, and even if the price of oil triples and you can't afford to drive to work any more. 

i'd guess most of the people that will protest (which might turn into riots) will do so around gov't offices, public places, etc. food looting will more likely be aimed at wally world, or hijacking food trucks, not going house to house looking for food. 

most likly gov't response will be martial law, curfews, road checkpoints, etc. if there's a cutoff in the oil supply, they'll likely make some sort of rationing program, and if you're not in a critical job, (eg, medical, police, fire, gov't), then you might have a hard time getting enough gas to get to work, particularly for many that live rural and commute to city jobs. food distribution will likely get special rationing to continue supplying grocery stores will at least some basics, altho certainly kiwi fruit from new zealand and your fav brand of pickles might not be available, and lines might be longer, and prices higher.

certainly the criminal element around now will become more active, and a few more people will join them. it will probably be the worst in the neighborhoods that are already bad to marginal now. if you're in a marginal neighborhood now, it will likely get worse. if you're in a very stable neighborhood with a good school district and low crime, that will mostly continue with a modest increase in crime, and low likelyhood of riots.

various societal fissures will widen, ie, racial/ethic tensions, religious tensions, republican/democrate tensions, etc. likely will be some neighborhoods you just can't go in to any more.

the whole mad max / zombie hordes scenario gets lots of attention in these types of forums, and an inordinate amount of discussion and fear seems to be generated by this topic. i personally don't think it's the most likely scenario. 

for the majority of people on this forum, i'd guess you'd be far better off adding a few more months worth of living expenses in the savings account, or paying more on your mortgage, that you would be adding more firepower and more rounds of ammunition. 

of course, the zombie hordes is an almost religious view, so i doubt i've persueded anyone, and i'm sure quite a few will jump in to advocate their view even louder and claim i'm in denial. but, perhaps there's a few out there that will consider an alternative view.

--sgl


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

TurnerHill said:


> IAngie deleted the quoted part of the deleted post..


Where there will be plenty of people like yourself to tell us how we can't make it on our own and how lucky we are to be there and have you to supervise us, for only a small portion of our labors?

To heck with that. Ideas like yours are how this whole thing got started. If it falls apart you can believe that there have been plenty of us hooking up ahead of time, planning, making connections and friends, and we'll be just fine out by ourselves. I'm sure there will be plenty of people willing to sell themselves into slavery but don't be surprised if you don't find many of them here.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Having spent the weekend in the company of men who have spent their lives preparing for the very things discussed in this thread, my sufferance for fools who mock when they may be dead inside of the next two years due to their own ignorance of the situation approaching has reached an all time low.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> If the economy (and therefore society) completely collapses, then I suggest you all work very, very hard to get some sort of civil society back up and running as quickly as possible.


Which is, of course, what would happen. When the chips are down, people tend to be touchingly civic-minded. Look how many volunteer to be firefighters, EMTs, etc., or come to the assistance of families who are burned out. I've seen men ice-diving in the dead of winter to try to recover the body of a drowning victim they didn't even know. I have no doubt that in a crisis, in most places you'd see people coming together pretty quickly to restore order in their communities.

It's interesting to assess in terms of personal risk, though. If your land is very remote, and you're well-stocked and -armed, you're probably better off sitting tight and letting other people do the dirty work. If you're near or in town, or close to a busy highway, you might want to think about throwing in your lot with the local citizen's posse.

On a similar note, the immediate danger would be in heavily populated urban areas, where you have the critical mass to support riots. As violence is quelled and those areas are returned to order, the lawbreakers may be pushed into the outlying areas. You might call this the Afghanistanation of a country, wherein the capital and some major cities are held by the so-called authorities, but much of rest of the country is controlled by whoever is big and bad enough to hold sway.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

I don't think that you two are all that far off. 

Ernie isn't saying that people won't work together... just that a lot of folks, who have been preparing will have little tolerance for a bunch of folks in "the village" who helped get us in this mess calling the shots, because too many times that means, you've got what is "good for the community" and you're going to share. 

Ernie pretty plainly says he'll work together with folks and is NOW... before anything goes down.

Me... unless the collapse is combined with widespread famine, I don't see it going all Zombie Apocalypse. But even if it does, I've made my peace with Jesus Christ and say "His will be done".

I hope I never have to shoot ANYONE in my lifetime... but I am ready to if I MUST. Certainly not something I hope for.

And (this will and has got me in trouble with some folks before) I think a LOT of people WANT a Zombie Apocalypse because they feel it would justify the choices they've made up until now. Those are the dangerous folks... just like the other side folks who will look at it as an opportunity to let chaos and tyranny loose on the masses.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> And (this will and has got me in trouble with some folks before) I think a LOT of people WANT a Zombie Apocalypse because they feel it would justify the choices they've made up until now. Those are the dangerous folks... just like the other side folks who will look at it as an opportunity to let chaos and tyranny loose on the masses.


Well said, Seedspreader.


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

When you think of collapse, you kind of imagine someone just jerking the carpet out from under you and all Kaoss happens. That kind of collapse I really don't think will happen. But what I do think will happen will be the gap between the rich and the poor will widen, wider and wider as the years go by making it almost impossible for many of us to survive like we've been doing for the last 50 - 60 years or so. It might get to the point where many of us poor folks are gonna have to make the decision of cell phone every month or food? Satelite or Food? 

I think it would be very wise to not sell your property when you get too old to take care of it, but to pass it on to your children. They're gonna need it to grow most of their own food if they want to make a living.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

naturelover said:


> This is in response to Wild Thang's objections to my post about birth control.
> 
> This topic is about barter in the event of economic collapse and I agree with what Forerunner wrote, that if there is an economic collapse it could be on a magnitude that would send us back into the dark ages. He also said "_If I were asked what to do to prepare, I'd say learn to deliver babies....and that includes how best to NURTURE a woman from conception to a month after delivery_." These are the words of a compassionate and understanding husband who obviously cherishes his wife and children and wants to keep them alive and healthy. I would take that one step further and say that a woman needs to be nurtured prior to conception and all throughout breast-feeding.
> 
> ...


sorry, your use of "enlightened" struck a nerve and I tried to present a different side of the coin. GOing back to my grandma, I'm trying to read through the letters I have chronologically, anyways, what happened is she has a small frame and was prone to anemia, she had a terrible time delivering my mom (1st child) got pregnant again pretty quick, that baby died(liver problem, at about 1.5 months)and she got pregnant a few months later with my aunt(so three quick pregnancies, my uncle was born four years later). SHe described going to the doc because she was very ill, she got meds for the anemia, but the doc also pressured her to "get rid of it" and also in the process cut her tubes to prevent more pregnancies. I can tell you that at that time she could have gone either way, morally( I mean she had no religious reason or background to base her decision on), but something in her said yes to the baby, despite a iffy marriage and no way to support herself otherwise. She had two more (my aunt and uncle), could barely feed them for awhile, but through very hard work my grandpa provided. She was scared to death of bearing those children, but decided to "trust the Lord"--you can make of that what you want. She lived to 90. I will take that lesson of faith and courage and sacrifice over getting rid of it. Yeah, some things are sacred. I dont' know if my grandma did get rid of any other its(I dont' think so tho, "knowing" her), but I wouldn't condemn her if she did. I'm trying to say, to my mind it's not as simple as "getting rid of it", and just had to say something. Sorry if it came out as objecting or whatever. I feel very deeply about this, as I'm sure you do too, and I'm sure not perfect in preseting a winning argument, but I tried. 

There is more to life than spacing things out so we can deal the way we think we should be dealt. Sometimes poo happens. You(meaning the anonymous "you") might be surprised what happens when you let go. Just sayin, I think/observe a lot of survivalists tend towards being control freaks, and that can be an Achilles Heel. 

I confess my knee is also jerking because "enlightened" smacks of dismissing the incredible contribution of all those brood mare women--it's like their forehead is stamped "broodmare" and their person is forgotten, even by the people who object to broodmarism. They need respect and rememberance too. (Yeah, feminism ticks me off, I admit it.)

sorry if all that is sanctimonious wishing 

maybe I am also trying to say that without some strong moral "code"/values--whatever you want to call it--survival becomes a beach real quick, like what is the freakin point?! eat or be eaten? I will die a human before I live as a soulless zombie. I not using "animal" because I respect animals. I don't mind if y'all object, I'm NOT saying breed like rabbits either(dang it, I feel like I'm babbling. I just had to say it tho)


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Wow this sure got off-topic. While I don't disagree with the immorality of abortifacients I think it would be just as immoral to bring life into the world when one has no adequate resources to take care of that child. Having unfortunately seen my fair share of children born to parents that had no business having them has sort of shaped my opinion on this subject. It would not be very advantageous (probably be closer to being very dangerous) to have a baby during a period of great societal upheaval especially for those who are not even anywhere close to having some sort of self-sufficiency. 

Also a quick look at most failed states on this planet will unfortunately confirm the fact that where there is no civility women often get the short end of the stick. Don't have to take my word for it, look up the top ten most poorest countries and see how women are treated. 

Now back to the original topic I figure places that have been long established where people know their neighbors well and have lots and lots of extended family close by will fare a bit better in a total collapse scenario than those in large metropolitan areas or an impersonal sub-division full of strangers with no roots. I also have a feeling at least in the beginning stages of a collapse we'll see plenty of unprepped rural folk high tailing it to the city to look for work and food. Also remote northern areas probably would see a mass migration south of those who are not hardy or have enough to outlast the winter. I just hope I am rural and north enough to see this first hand if a massive sort of economic collapse were to happen. Those who stay behind will (hopefully) be of similar mindset.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

wyld thang said:


> sorry, your use of "enlightened" struck a nerve and I tried to present a different side of the coin ...... I confess my knee is also jerking because "enlightened" smacks of dismissing the incredible contribution of all those brood mare women--it's like their forehead is stamped "broodmare" and their person is forgotten, even by the people who object to broodmarism. They need respect and rememberance too. (Yeah, feminism ticks me off, I admit it.)


I know this is thread-drift but I just want to clarify something.

Perhaps you and I think of 'enlightenment' differently. To me enlightened women are modern, educated women who are better informed about good health, medicine and nutrition and who understand the importance of spacing babies apart appropriately for the sake of their health and the health of their babies. I have no great objection to the quiver-full mentality as long as that's what the mothers want and they bring forth their children healthfully, responsibly and willfully and can provide for their continued well-being. 

Your grandmother must have come from shortly after the generation of my mother (born in 1907 she would be 102 y.o. now if she was still alive - maysherestinpeace). Both my grandmothers were small women born in the mid 1880's and were having babies by their early teens. They didn't know how not to have babies and didn't have any choice in the matter anyway, since their husbands were not the type to take no for an answer. They had 25 babies between them and in both cases, nearly every other baby they had either miscarried at half term or died in infancy because both grandmas often were carrying one in the belly and one or two still at the breast, overworked in the fields and homes, brow-beaten, malnourished, dismissed and disregarded as equal human beings. Between the 2 of them they were pregnant and/or breast-feeding for a total of 37 years and they both died in child birth. :Bawling:

They haven't been dismissed or forgotten by their daughters, grand-daughters, great grand-daughters and great, great grand-daughters. 

That was the pioneering way of my foremothers and I would hate to see the enlightened women of this day and age thrust back into that kind of pioneering lifestyle because of a societal collapse.

.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

PhilJohnson said:


> Wow this sure got off-topic. While I don't disagree with the immorality of abortifacients I think it would be just as immoral to bring life into the world when one has no adequate resources to take care of that child. .


the thing is, if you x out all the children who were born because there weren't adequate resources there would be far far fewer people in this world--a great many of them who overcame that difficulty to have huge impact on the course of human events. I won't get into parallel universes, but realistically MOST of the people on this planet were born into some sort of inconvienience. We would not SURVIVE as a species if we depended on CONVIENIENCE(nothing would). There, I think that's the point I'm trying to make.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

naturelover said:


> Perhaps you and I think of 'enlightenment' differently. To me enlightened women are modern, educated women who are better informed about good health, medicine and nutrition and who understand the importance of spacing babies apart appropriately for the sake of their health and the health of their babies.
> .


I think enlightened women are intelligent enough, observant, capable/handy enough, curious, loving, longsuffering, can muddle through, dance in mourning, shoot straight and bake a great pie(or caribou weenies). not neccessarily in that order, or all of it at once perfectly. That kind of enlightenment has been around through the ages and is mother's milk to the human race. I know it sounds cheesy, but people love cheese.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> sorry, your use of "enlightened" struck a nerve and I tried to present a different side of the coin. GOing back to my grandma, I'm trying to read through the letters I have chronologically, anyways, what happened is she has a small frame and was prone to anemia, she had a terrible time delivering my mom (1st child) got pregnant again pretty quick, that baby died(liver problem, at about 1.5 months)and she got pregnant a few months later with my aunt(so three quick pregnancies, my uncle was born four years later). SHe described going to the doc because she was very ill, she got meds for the anemia, but the doc also pressured her to "get rid of it" and also in the process cut her tubes to prevent more pregnancies. I can tell you that at that time she could have gone either way, morally( I mean she had no religious reason or background to base her decision on), but something in her said yes to the baby, despite a iffy marriage and no way to support herself otherwise. She had two more (my aunt and uncle), could barely feed them for awhile, but through very hard work my grandpa provided. She was scared to death of bearing those children, but decided to "trust the Lord"--you can make of that what you want. She lived to 90. I will take that lesson of faith and courage and sacrifice over getting rid of it.


Your grandma got lucky. Lots of women didn't. Lots of babies died, too. 

My great-great-grandmother died in childbirth on the boat between the Old World and New. Her 9th baby. The kids went into an orphanage until GGGramps could find a new wife, who bore him 8 more kids. 

Women in my family continued to die in childbirth right up through my grandma's generation (b. 1913 -- her sister died after being delivered by a doctor who was drunk, according to family legend). 

Just the way it was back then. Thank whatever gods may exist that we don't have to live that way now!


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Is the simple fact that adversity breeds babies, lost to all of you?
Poverty/war/pestilence= babies. Babies are the surest way to get a man to keep and pay for you. Period. 

Now don't get all ----ed at me. It is the way of things. I didn't postulate on what is right. Just what is.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

wyld thang said:


> the thing is, if you x out all the children who were born because there weren't adequate resources there would be far far fewer people in this world--a great many of them who overcame that difficulty to have huge impact on the course of human events. I won't get into parallel universes, but realistically MOST of the people on this planet were born into some sort of inconvienience. We would not SURVIVE as a species if we depended on CONVIENIENCE(nothing would). There, I think that's the point I'm trying to make.


Spend some time with some suffering kids and then tell me that. The individual kid doesn't know or care about survival of the species. All he/she knows is that their life sucks and they are suffering. There is nothing noble about having kids one can't take care of, it is called being irresponsible. Sure maybe there would be less people in this world if everyone waited for better circumstances but why would that be a bad thing to have most everyone well-nourished and more likely not as poverty stricken. 

While there may never be no such thing as the perfect time to have a child there is such a thing as common sense. You wouldn't build a house during a hurricane, plow a field in a heavy rain, or remodel your basement during a flood. What I am trying to get at is there is a right time for everything. Sure you might get your house built during a hurricane, might get the field plowed with out getting stuck, or get lucky and not have your basement flood but your chances of disaster increase to the point of unacceptability. I guess I look at prepping as a way to mitigate risk. Why would anyone prep so they can have the best chance at breathing for another day and yet not do the same for any future children? Part of being prepared is doing things at the right time, whether it is planting a seed in the garden or planting the seed of life.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Oldcountryboy said:


> I think it would be very wise to not sell your property when you get too old to take care of it, but to pass it on to your children. They're gonna need it to grow most of their own food if they want to make a living.


I've been thinking that way for a long time. The day will come when only the rich will be able to buy land. The poor may become sharecroppers living on the land, but having to give a percentage of their crops to the land owner.


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## luv2farm (Feb 15, 2008)

Ernie said:


> *Skills will be what keeps you *going through the economy. Can you knit me a thick wool sweater and three pairs of thick wool socks? I'd trade a pair of spring lambs for that.
> 
> If you think you're going to survive by stockpiling a few items then let me put it as clear as I possibly can: _you're going to die._


I whole-heartedly agree!!!! You know, on most days, I'm a pretty smart gal. I KNOW how to do ALOT of things. I CAN feed my children. That being said.....(after reading this thread), I do rely on "banked" information, at time. You know, I have to look things up. How long to process the meat, when is a good time to ___ (fill in the blank) ?? I have the ability and resources NOW to just look it up on the net, call my mom, etc., ask you people. I have tons of information in "my favorites" and "saved" on this computer. BUT, if TSHTF and we are off grid, that info is worhtless. So, I am making it a point to start printing off a lot of this valuable info, not just for me, but for my people. Kindda knowing, or remembering, how to do something just won't be good enough!!


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

.............Diesel engines need diesel too run , but , any gasoline powered device car , truck , bus , etc. can be converted over too either propane or natural gas ! The Fools in Washington , DC should be pushing natural Gas conversions for ALL small , fuel efficient vehicles . 
.............Natural Gas Supply both here and Canada is of sufficient volume that it would supply any level of usage by the millions of vehicles folks drive to conduct their daily lives . 
.............What we don't need is a few Solar panel mfgers with an Attitude like Monsanto who want to control all facets of their manfacture , distribution and sales ! , fordy:cowboy:


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## mpillow/mpillow (Nov 10, 2009)

I'm going to chime in....about abortion...

I'm pretty sure I don't believe in it for myself but my kids were planned and we were/are secure.

My mother had 5 children, her husband abandoned her for 6 years, came back, took advantage of my mother and she was prego again.(domestic violence and rape were not heard of back then) She had 5 kids she wasn't able to feed ages 6 -12years....she certainly didn't want me...but she changed her mind when the nurse was taking her in for the abortion. As luck would have it, I turned out to be her favorite kid

Now after 2 kids my husband and I decided to do fostercare....kids born into drugs/violence/boozing mom's to be.... These kids are 2 years old and more than not have Attachment Disorder, PTSD, sexualized behavior, Fetal alcohol Effect/Syndrome, crack addictions, health issues from mal-nourishment, lead poisoning causing learning lags(MR) from chewing non-food items or living in squaller

They have been victimized and continue to play the victim regardless of whether or not they are adopted into PERFECT homes. Some simply do not have any quality of life due to the amount of meds. they need to be "controlled"...they are put into group homes when they are too much for a family setting. The group homes are like cesspools of violent and sexual deviance and drug addicts. The kids med. seek constantly....by age 18 they are either committed or let out to become a social menace and/or criminal.
If mommy had aborted them the pain and suffering would have been short-lived for all involved. And like people in prison, they cost a lot of tax dollars year after year.

I think that these people who do this to their kids should be offered free abortion AND free sterilization and a lump sum of cash....

We adopted a little girl, whose MR mom was raped by her BIL (a man old enough to be her father and a known/registered sex offender)....my child was removed at 2 months, DNA tests done, and almost 3 years later she was freed for adoption. By age 5m when she came to live with us she had been in 3 homes...ours being the 4th. She was malnourished, and would not make eye contact...She has Attachment disorder, which mean the love that should be in her has been replaced with distrust...she can be difficult and cannot be trusted to do as she is told, supervision is CONSTANT and she is a mild "case" as far as foster kids go. We love her, we try to be understanding of how she processes information, and we will always have to protect her from herself because she does not have a lot of cause and effect sense. Nothing is ever her fault....

Now I know that this will offend some of you, but these are the roads I've walked down in my own shoes...and why in today's world I feel abortion has a place.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

luv2farm said:


> I whole-heartedly agree!!!! You know, on most days, I'm a pretty smart gal. I KNOW how to do ALOT of things. I CAN feed my children. That being said.....(after reading this thread), I do rely on "banked" information, at time. You know, I have to look things up. How long to process the meat, when is a good time to ___ (fill in the blank) ?? I have the ability and resources NOW to just look it up on the net, call my mom, etc., ask you people. I have tons of information in "my favorites" and "saved" on this computer. BUT, if TSHTF and we are off grid, that info is worhtless. So, I am making it a point to start printing off a lot of this valuable info, not just for me, but for my people. Kindda knowing, or remembering, how to do something just won't be good enough!!


Books are hugely valuable. Especially these huge sets of how-to books. Many of us may have grown up with a few of the skills we can acquire through books, but we've had to turn to books for the other things. Without a lifetime of experience doing the thing in particular, it's hard to remember the details. Especially if it's something you only do once per season. 

I like to write in books, which drives my wife absolutely crazy. Take for example one of my gardening books. It describes each particular vegetable and discusses things like planting depth and seed spacing. In the margins on that page I've written notes like "03 - 6 in. good yield" and "04 - 4 in. bad yield". So I've used that book as a base to start from and added personal experience on top of it. My grandfather did that as well, and where I still have some of his books (and can read his handwriting) I find it helpful. 

As to the rest of this conversation and where it's turned, I'm going to ignore it. I've already heard many of the viewpoints expressed in other forums, and not surprisingly from the same people.


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## luv2farm (Feb 15, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Books are hugely valuable. Especially these huge sets of how-to books. .............. Without a lifetime of experience doing the thing in particular, it's hard to remember the details. Especially if it's something you only do once per season.
> 
> I like to write in books, ..... Take for example one of my gardening books. It describes each particular vegetable and discusses things like planting depth and seed spacing. In the margins on that page I've written notes like "03 - 6 in. good yield" and "04 - 4 in. bad yield". So I've used that book as a base to start from and added personal experience on top of it........
> 
> As to the rest of this conversation and where it's turned, I'm going to ignore it. I've already heard many of the viewpoints expressed in other forums, and not surprisingly from the same people.


*Ernie*, once again I agree with you! I have tons of book, and I have notes and information wrote in them, and on notecards stuck in them with info jotted down. I have tried to gather books on as many subjects as possible, everything from:

the COMPLETE set of Foxfire
herb books of all types
gardening books 
tanning and hides
processing meat and food storage
books on feed for livestock
animal husbandry of all types
etc

Knowing full well, alot of the _methods_ will be useless (due to the inability to obtain some elements), but the knowledge is still valuable if you can come up with enough enginuity to implement it.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

I have to agree with Ernie and luv2farm, good reference books can be worth their weight in gold - not for barter but for the knowledge contained within them, and that knowledge can be bartered. Both my parents were bibliophiles and I inherited that tendency from them along with their books, as well as adding my own to the collection over the past 50 years or so. I have been like an old dragon and hoarded a veritable library of reference books that cover every aspect of homesteading knowledge, including illustrated medical books and encyclopedias of science & technology, arts & crafts, etc. - enough that a country school and reading library for children and adults could be started with them if necessary. But I would never lend them out, they would have to be studied and copied by others on my premises. The one thing I don't have a good selection of is on blacksmithing and I don't have a clue where would be a good start to select the most suitable books on that subject.

.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

It would be nice if someone organized a book project. Divide it into perhaps 8 or so categories: blacksmithing, food preservation, composting, feeding livestock, etc.

Then we could post a list of good book references under each of those, primarily to aid people who are just now coming to realize they need to build such.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

Spinner said:


> I've been thinking that way for a long time. The day will come when only the rich will be able to buy land. The poor may become sharecroppers living on the land, but having to give a percentage of their crops to the land owner.


That's pretty much the way the world has been for thousands of years and will be.

The only reason we have this great nation (assuming you are posting from the United States) where lower income folks can OWN their homes is because we STOLE it from the native Americans.

Be thankful that a man with a gun wrote our current history!

I know it sounds bad, but it's the truth.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

wyld thang said:


> the thing is, if you x out all the children who were born because there weren't adequate resources there would be far far fewer people in this world--a great many of them who overcame that difficulty to have huge impact on the course of human events. I won't get into parallel universes, but realistically MOST of the people on this planet were born into some sort of inconvienience. We would not SURVIVE as a species if we depended on CONVIENIENCE(nothing would). There, I think that's the point I'm trying to make.



Gosh! When you put it in that perspective, we wouldn't have our current President!!


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## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

Ernie speaks well. I would add that if you live a simple life & have few belongings, but several skills, you can afford to lose the physical, yet still be able to move on and start again.

Being able to grow food is certainly a skill, and food will always be in demand. 
Regarding potable water, rainwater harvesting is a great way to go. You also need to live in a place where it has pretty regular rainfall. Choose your location wisely.


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