# pigs on dirt, compared to rasied on cement



## jmill (Jan 30, 2007)

I was told by a 4-H Leader not to raise 4-H pigs in the dirt, that thy need to be raise on cement. He said raising them in the dirt causes them to grow slower, do to the fact the they will continue to get worms and grow slower. Raising them on the cement they will be less likely to keep getting worms and grow much faster. I give my pigs a shot of ivomec. Should I rasie them on cement, or will they grow fine on dirt.
I give my pigs a shot of ivomec, when there little. However I am not sure how long there after should I give them another shot to in sure they stay worm free. I was planning on letting them be in the dirt with shelter? So I guess I have 2 questions, should I raise on cement or will dirt be okay? Also how long after I give them a shot of Ivomec should I follow up with another dose. I know there is a withdrawl period before slaughter that says dont treat pigs with in 18 days of slaughter. any advice would be very helpful.
Thanks, Jen


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## NWMO (Jul 26, 2005)

about pastured pork......based on the taste of the pork and the satisfaction of the pigs wallowing in a mud hole, I could not see how raising on concrete could be preferred by pig, nor breeder!


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## nomad7inwi (Nov 30, 2005)

In my limited experience pigs raised on dirt have less issues with worms. If my pigs raised on dirt grew slower its because of how I fed them, not because of dirt or worms. They had a very low worm load and I never used a dewormer.


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## jmill (Jan 30, 2007)

i was in disagreement with him about the cement, however I started 2nd guessing my self. And with It being 4-H pigs, that I have to push them with there weight. Right now they weight about 35 pounds and They have to be atleast 220 by the end of July to make fair weight. So I was just concerned I dont want my boys missing out on there pigs not making weight. Also I am feeding 14% protein grain and I know they should be on 21% so I am adding soy to there feed. This is what I am doing now 3 coffee cans of grain to 1 coffee can of soy. how do I figure out the protein level I am giving them. Someone told me to mix it this way and it will give me my 21% protein that I need. Is this correct and what else can i do to ensure they will make weight for the fair, Thanks jen


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Well, if you put them in a glass (or concrete) cage, pump chemically enhanced balanced food in and shovel ---- out you can probably get the maximum possible growth. The meat will likely taste awful. The pig and your experience will be horrible. But, hey, that's prison. Your 4-H "Leader" is simply well indoctrinated by modern institutional industrial mind washers.

How much feed you pump through the pig, how balanced the proteins are and how many calories are left over after maintenance are all big determinants of growth. Genetics is another big factor. Pasture doesn't mean worm or other disease - quite the opposite.

Me, I'll pasture raise my pigs. Ours don't have worm or disease problems. Even if they did take a little longer to get to market weight due to getting more exercise and cooler climate I'm not concerned. Their life is superior to that of a factory farmed pig, my farm work is much more pleasant, they taste better so I sell them four about two to three times as much as pigs go for in "The Industry".

Chefs taste our pastured pork and clamor for more. That is what matters!  The 4-H "Leader" is just focused on the wrong things in life.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://HollyGraphicArt.com/
http://NoNAIS.org


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

What a load of pig ----! that is  Pigs SHOULD NEVER BE RAISED ON CEMENT. They naturally root and till, which being housed on a cement floor prohibits. Only pigs that are mismanaged (ie, crowded into dirty small spaces) have worm problems. My hogs are ALWAYS outdoors, on grass pasture and dirt. I have no parasite problems to speak of, just deworm the breeders about twice a year and the feeders once in their lifetime, several months before slaughter, and I'm in the humid south. Try to prevent an animal's natural behavior and you are asking for misery for both of you.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

jmill said:


> i was in disagreement with him about the cement, however I started 2nd guessing my self. And with It being 4-H pigs, that I have to push them with there weight. Right now they weight about 35 pounds and They have to be atleast 220 by the end of July to make fair weight. So I was just concerned I dont want my boys missing out on there pigs not making weight. Also I am feeding 14% protein grain and I know they should be on 21% so I am adding soy to there feed. This is what I am doing now 3 coffee cans of grain to 1 coffee can of soy. how do I figure out the protein level I am giving them. Someone told me to mix it this way and it will give me my 21% protein that I need. Is this correct and what else can i do to ensure they will make weight for the fair, Thanks jen


Our feed is milled at a ratio of 1 part soybean to 4 parts corn, and the resulting feed is a 14% protein blend. I seriously doubt the pigs need a 21% protein feed. For many, many years hogs were fattened on corn alone, which is maybe 8% protein. If I were you, I would just feed a whole bunch of the 14% feed and limit their activity by keeping them in a smallish pen (say 16 x 16 ft), rather than letting them romp and play all over a large paddock or pasture.


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## milkinpigs (Oct 4, 2005)

Since you have limited experience and your goal is for your kids to have a chance at the fair, listen to your 4-H leader. i'm afraid these forums are becoming increasingly "my way is the only way" .... especially when one who seems quite the expert bemoans about the inability to continue financially... never understood the need to bash the full time farmers who operate in a more conventional way.....guess it's the big fish in a little pond thing......


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## chichi (Jul 4, 2007)

Remember that the 4H is based on conventional ag thinking, not alternatives or quality or sustainability or etc etc etc. They want big big big fast fast fast grow grow grow. It is all about producing the most pounds of pork for the least dollars not about taste or quality. If that is your goal then listen to them as that is how to win their prize.

As for bing a big fish in a little pond???? Who wants to be a little fish in a huge stinking manure pit? Not me......Flood waters are rising......Pasture is the place to be.


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## Karenrbw (Aug 17, 2004)

We weighed in pigs last weekend and they were about 40 pounds. At our fair in the 3rd week of July, they have to be 230 and most people don't have a problem making that weight. The biggest problem we seem to have with raising pigs on dirt is when they get to the fair. Our hog barn in concrete and the show arena is concrete. Every year, several of the dirt raised pigs go lame and are very slow and limp around at the show. While this affects their on foot placing, it really doesn't affect the overall placing too much. Our overall placing is based on backfat, rate of gain, and place on foot. Last year, a kid who got last in his class of about 12 hogs, placed 4 overall in a show of 134 hogs because of his rate of gain.


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## tomjones (Dec 22, 2007)

I have an opinion here just because I also have kids in 4-h doing pigs.

In SD we have a smaller pig program than you do, and we will have much smaller county fairs and a lare state fair at which all market hogs are terminal.

There are pigs sales around for show hogs, and people play the game just like you are talking. 

I say no and I am teaching my kids why.

I dont think spending 5 times as much as a piglet would normally be worth is right just so my kid has a chance to place. I dont see the point of pounding feed through the pigs at a huge cost over conventional feeding to win the ROG contests. I want my kids to learn that there are alternative ways to do this and that there are alternative breeds to do it with. They will almost surely not win, but they are giving talks to there clubs about ther large blacks, and our extension agent is so excited to have something around other than the generic market pig. 

I think lessons can be taught that are more important than winning. 

JMHO,

TOm


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

well tom that why we have breed classes....

The breed class is all about soundess, durablity and genetic standards

The market hog class is teaching kids the business, and methods of competitive agriculture. Yes, I say competitive; at the local sale barns some cows look fat, sassy, and slick and bring more money....Some black cows bring more for just being black....Some farmers find success being able to give the buyers exactly what they want....Some choose not to and get a lesser price per animal.

I ask you what lesson is learned by entering an animal into a competion that it is genetically unable to compete....The goal is teach feed ratio's, the bacis building block of feed breakdown....protein vs. grain....the affect of fat in diets....teaching the value of quality genetics, the theories of f1, f2 crosses. These the lesson of the market hog shows. 

the breed shows teach the values of each individual breed and the differences. Try to promote a greater involvement in breed specific shows, The large black breed has plenty of value without degrading the market hogs.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Those 4-H leaders should be banned! Pushing any critter to grow faster than normal only produces health problems.

I don't have any pens. My large livestock and poultry roam free. I wouldn't keep them if they had to be confined, whether they're for eating or for pleasure.

And, as has been said, there's a huge difference in taste between confined pigs and delicious tasting free roaming pigs. Free roaming critters are also nicer and much easier to work with.


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## tomjones (Dec 22, 2007)

Not going to argue with you about this RH, but I do feel there is a lesson here.

First, mine will be breeding hogs, not market this year. But ultimately al hogs are meat animals that are designed and managed to produce protein from plant matter.

SInce to my knowledge I have one of the only pairs of LB in the state, I doubt they will be judged by the breed standard.

Yet, I feel that 4h misses a vital aspect by ranking ROG as high in process as they do. The main defining characteristic defining production agriculture in the past 20 years has been being the low cost producer of a quality product. And to be blunt that is not factored into the equation at all. I want my kids to be low cost producers of a quality product in an envirnmentaly friendly manner. And 4h could give a rip for 2 of those 3 emphasis areas.

To be honest most of the time it seems like you could care less as well. I just dont understand the position you are coming from sometimes except to stir the pot.

The lesson to be learned is that there is more than one way (the judges way) to skin a cat. There is in fact more than one production model, and not all are recognized. 

Look around you and tell me that a knowlede base of historical production methods has not been lost among your commercial production contacts. Lose your history and make the same mistakes again. 

My message to the original question is to at least contemplate the decision you are making from the point of view of playing the game by there rules or simply making a decision to play by your own in there system and let the chips fall where they may. Sometimes the best lessons in life are learned by losing not winning. And if you quietly and succinctly can relate your reasons for doing what you are doing you may over the long term be able to effect change in the 4h system. 

Otherwise prepare your checkbook to throw money at the project in the name of a blue ribbon or a championship trophy.

To each his own.

Tom


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## jmill (Jan 30, 2007)

Thanks, for all the feed back on this matter. I think what I will do is go ahead with my plan of letting them be on dirt and allow them to be happy, healthy pigs.


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

> To be honest most of the time it seems like you could care less as well. I just dont understand the position you are coming from sometimes except to stir the pot.


The show is a genetic competition for the most part, it has always been that. The lessons learned are not tied to the pig, but the ribbon is....The 4-h is for kids, I don't like to see adult politics messing with kids, or their events. Maybe the best lesson is withdrawl from activities you don't agree with, The 4-h kids have the right to compete how they see fit. My question, is this about your kids or your politics?

There are adult shows every other weekend, pro-style events in which adults compete for seedstock business in very politically charged events, In these situations you and me can butt heads, and see who wins...that being said I don't want some revolutionary, change the world speech coming into my family time.... 4-h has and will always be family time....neither of our politics should be involved, just like baseball has always had about the same rules...4-h is a farming tradition and should be left alone.


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## chichi (Jul 4, 2007)

RedHogs said:


> The show is a genetic competition for the most part, it has always been that. The lessons learned are not tied to the pig, but the ribbon is....The 4-h is for kids, I don't like to see adult politics messing with kids, or their events. Maybe the best lesson is withdrawl from activities you don't agree with, The 4-h kids have the right to compete how they see fit. My question, is this about your kids or your politics?
> 
> There are adult shows every other weekend, pro-style events in which adults compete for seedstock business in very politically charged events, In these situations you and me can butt heads, and see who wins...that being said I don't want some revolutionary, change the world speech coming into my family time.... 4-h has and will always be family time....neither of our politics should be involved, just like baseball has always had about the same rules...4-h is a farming tradition and should be left alone.



Yeah! Exactly! Its grate to hear you say that Red. Adults and their politics should get out of 4H. And the gov should stop forcing NAIS on 4H too. We dont need no stinking premises id and garbage forced on us and our kids via 4H.


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

I promise you I won't bring up NAIS in front of kids in a 4-h oriented event, The NAIS is an adult issue that is best discussed elsewhere..... here it has already been dealt with.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

RedHogs said:


> The NAIS is an adult issue


Interesting statement. Then why is NAIS being forced on 4-H kids when it is a _voluntary_ program according to the USDA. I agree, lets not turn this into a discussion of the government's corruption of our youth through the 4-H program.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

milkinpigs said:


> Since you have limited experience and your goal is for your kids to have a chance at the fair, listen to your 4-H leader. i'm afraid these forums are becoming increasingly "my way is the only way" .... especially when one who seems quite the expert bemoans about the inability to continue financially... never understood the need to bash the full time farmers who operate in a more conventional way.....guess it's the big fish in a little pond thing......


Thanks for the underhanded insult. "My way", as you term it, is to factor in the animal's NATURAL tendencies. I am such a wingnut that way :1pig:


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

I love how this has degraded onto a NAIS assault, never mind the fact that all livestock collection areas have already begun to be phased into the NAIS program....fair grounds, are such a place....4H is not part of the issue, it operates within a geographic area of a place where it is Mandnatory...others fairs are soon to have Mandnatory registration. The program does not require attendance or participation in 4H....but if you show up with a bug you will be responsible...from now on.

Nevermind the fact that are large % of the kids showing, keep the hogs at a showbarn with other showpigs.... the kid's home is in this case not registered.

All hogs entered here require a vet letter, and vacination record....Most breed registeries have already begun to required Premise ID numbers. So most of the anti-NAIS people are not involved anyway. With the mandnatory registration at collection areas, those not registered will be preventing the spread of disease in their own way by not attending, In such, a major part of the NAIS goal has been met and you have still been able to farm and not register and live as you please. 

I think the compromise should be welcomed by people, If the nonregistered animal never leave the farm, there is no immediate threat....I have always been a advocate of a homesteader's exemption.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

RedHogs said:


> I love how this has degraded onto a NAIS assault


Only you love it. But since you insist now we have to correct the miss-information you spread. See below.



RedHogs said:


> never mind the fact that all livestock collection areas have already begun to be phased into the NAIS program


Incorrect. There isn't a single place that I deal with that requires NAIS or even deals with NAIS at all. In fact, NAIS was rejected in some states. NAIS is supposed to be voluntary, according to the USDA, so when it is being forced on some 4Hers and others that is plain wrong. It is an adult issue (read: Big Ag international export profits) being forced on kids and small farmers who sell locally having no interest in the export markets.

NAIS is simply designed for the benefit of large corporations who get away with using group ID numbers and don't have to do the tagging. The burden is put on small farmers who must tag and track individual animals as well as on the consumer who pays the ultimate costs, loses choice and pays the tax bill for the program. NAIS isn't about disease prevention, it is about Big Ag taking over the last 15% of the market, their exports and control. The biggest winners in the whole thing is the companies making the tags - guaranteed profits on a captive audience.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://HollyGraphicArt.com/
http://NoNAIS.org


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

The 4H program is a great program with great kids and intentions, these attacks are just unreal.....The scare tactics of some to smear a program that is yes dominated by yes professional farmers is sad and pathetic.....4H is a good program....

_Cooperative â The NAIS is a joint effort. Successful achievement of the 48-hour traceback goal will occur through State, Federal, and industry partnerships. While animal health authorities have significant responsibilities, it is important to ensure that this effort does not unduly increase the size and scope of Federal or State governments. 

Both public and private funding will be required for the NAIS to become fully operational. The Federal government is providing the standards, national databases, and basic infrastructure. States and Tribes will register premises within their areas. They will also support the administration of animal identification and tracking systems that will feed information into the national databases. Producers will identify their animals and provide necessary records to the databases. *Managers of shows and events will report a record of participating animals.* Market operators and processing plants will provide animal location records. Service providers and third parties will assist by providing animal identification and movement records to the NAIS on behalf of their producer clients. All groups will need to provide labor. _

Walter this except is from the NAIS strategic manual, the 4H program falls under the bold section....This is not new....I do not appreciate being all but called a liar, the program calls for action and I applaud those who have taken the steps required of them, both 4H families and 4H organizations alike. This plan was put forth by the USDA, not the 4H clubs.....The states, breed registies, industry buying groups are implementing NAIS at different levels, but the 4H groups can not be blamed.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

RedHog, you're drinking the Kool-Aid.


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## milkinpigs (Oct 4, 2005)

Highlands, not getting into your and redhogs ongoing arguements.....

Don't you feel the govt. has a fair knowledge of your operation through your tax return; that is if you file Sched. F ?


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## tomjones (Dec 22, 2007)

I will just respond with this. I was involved with 4-h my entire youth career all the way, including but not limited to being selected as the outstanding 4h'r for my county the senior year. My wife is currently a club leader. 

The idea that my "Politics" somehow are at odds with 4-h jacks me off. 

Why should we toe the line someone else has created just to get along??? I would make the argument that oftentimes the steers and barrows that win fair championships have no more realtiy base commercially than any measure you see talked about on here.

My kids will not win purple ribbons. (Thats first place here.) They will also understand the reason, and why we have chosen to pursue that course.

If you want to play the money games, go for it. I dont care what anyone says. Throw eough green at the problem and you can buy a trophy. IMHO that teaches less than nothing, and education is the basis of 4-h. not trophies.

Don't tell me too.

Tom


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

milkinpigs said:


> Don't you feel the govt. has a fair knowledge of your operation through your tax return; that is if you file Sched. F ?


Exactly. Thus there is no need to have NAIS, premises ID, Animal ID or Animal Tracking. These things are just for the benefit of the big corporations doing exports and attempting to gobble up the small producers while being subsidized by government. NAIS is redundant and unnecessary. If the big corps want a tracking system for their animals let them implement it themselves. Tax payers should not be required to fund it. Other farmers, like myself, who don't want to participate should not be mandated into the program. And to get back onto the topic, 4H kids should not be forced into it either. A lot of 4Hers are protesting this issue and do not support NAIS.


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## chichi (Jul 4, 2007)

Not all of the 4H leaders are toing the line to this NAIS stuff premises id stuff and raising on concrete. I was talking with the local 4h group leader this morning and I tolder her about this conversation on this board and she said just the opposite that she liked seeing the kids go for alternative methods to the whole factory industry ideal. She promotes the natural and organic stuff that you can get better prices per pound if you raise the meat better taht hitting the nichee markets is the way to go. She said we cant compete with the likes of smithfields and kids shouldnt be aiming for that or being serfs to the big companies. So not all 4h is into this factory farm mentality. Good to know it!


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## pmondo (Oct 6, 2007)

farmergirl said:


> Our feed is milled at a ratio of 1 part soybean to 4 parts corn, and the resulting feed is a 14% protein blend. I seriously doubt the pigs need a 21% protein feed. For many, many years hogs were fattened on corn alone, which is maybe 8% protein. If I were you, I would just feed a whole bunch of the 14% feed and limit their activity by keeping them in a smallish pen (say 16 x 16 ft), rather than letting them romp and play all over a large paddock or pasture.


you shouldn't feed pigs soybean or corn try barley wheat and rye go to woolly pigs .com read up on it soybeans stunt their growth and change their taste i have read this on more then one farmer website


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## pmondo (Oct 6, 2007)

Trypsin inhibitors in soy interfere with protein digestion and may cause pancreatic disorders. In test animals soy containing trypsin inhibitors caused stunted growth
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/
The Chinese did not eat unfermented soybeans as they did other legumes such as lentils because the soybean contains large quantities of natural toxins or "antinutrients". First among them are potent enzyme inhibitors that block the action of trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion.

http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/avoid_soy.htm

there more just do a search


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## TurnKey (Aug 11, 2004)

*JEEZ you guys! She asked a simple question and two of you in particular reduced this thread down to an argument about government, NAIS, and feed. STOP IT! All she wanted was opinions on cement vs. dirt raised 4H pigs. Just answer her questions and move on-

I vote for dirt raised*


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

pmondo said:


> Trypsin inhibitors in soy interfere with protein digestion and may cause pancreatic disorders. In test animals soy containing trypsin inhibitors caused stunted growth
> http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/
> The Chinese did not eat unfermented soybeans as they did other legumes such as lentils because the soybean contains large quantities of natural toxins or "antinutrients". First among them are potent enzyme inhibitors that block the action of trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion.
> 
> ...


To my knowledge, the soybeans must be milled in such a way that they are usable for the pigs. It is quite customary for hogs to be fed soybeans and corn. I'm open to alternatives, but must say that the mix I am feeding now seems to work well. And the taste of the pork is wonderful.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

I've read that the soy beans are roasted to make them work in feed.


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## thompsonsjames515 (11 mo ago)

jmill said:


> I was told by a 4-H Leader not to raise 4-H pigs in the dirt, that thy need to be raise on cement. He said raising them in the dirt causes them to grow slower, do to the fact the they will continue to get worms and grow slower. Raising them on the cement they will be less likely to keep getting worms and grow much faster. I give my pigs a shot of ivomec. Should I rasie them on cement, or will they grow fine on dirt.
> I give my pigs a shot of ivomec, when there little. However I am not sure how long there after should I give them another shot to in sure they stay worm free. I was planning on letting them be in the dirt with shelter? So I guess I have 2 questions, should I raise on cement or will dirt be okay? Also how long after I give them a shot of Ivomec should I follow up with another dose. I know there is a withdrawl period before slaughter that says dont treat pigs with in 18 days of slaughter. any advice would be very helpful.
> Thanks, Jen





jmill said:


> I was told by a 4-H Leader not to raise 4-H pigs in the dirt, that thy need to be raise on cement. He said raising them in the dirt causes them to grow slower, do to the fact the they will continue to get worms and grow slower. Raising them on the cement they will be less likely to keep getting worms and grow much faster. I give my pigs a shot of ivomec. Should I rasie them on cement, or will they grow fine on dirt.
> I give my pigs a shot of ivomec, when there little. However I am not sure how long there after should I give them another shot to in sure they stay worm free. I was planning on letting them be in the dirt with shelter? So I guess I have 2 questions, should I raise on cement or will dirt be okay? Also how long after I give them a shot of Ivomec should I follow up with another dose. I know there is a withdrawl period before slaughter that says dont treat pigs with in 18 days of slaughter. any advice would be very helpful.
> Thanks, Jen


14 days later give them another shot


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

thompsonsjames515 said:


> 14 days later give them another shot


There is a chance it’s too late for these particular pigs to benefit. I’m not a pig farmer but they seem old…. 2008 to 2022 makes them 14 years old by now!


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## wkyongae1 (Nov 15, 2021)

I was raised on what most would call a factory farm. 240 sows and a 1400 head finisher. Depending on your breed you're raising for the fair over all you shouldn't have a problem making weight. To help the pigs show better have the kids learn how to show properly. I also showed pigs at the fair and all I did was grab 4 pigs out of the finisher, pen them off separately and teach the pigs how to be showed. I was also in 4h and FFA. I never placed very well although I did win showmen ship 1st place. And one year the auctioneer had to stop the auction because I was getting more for my hogs then the grand champion pig. Gotta love friends with deep pockets.


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