# Avoiding police a matter of survival?



## illinoisguy (Sep 4, 2011)

First off let say that I come from a line of LEOs. My dad was an Illinois state trooper. My uncle was FBI later chief of police at a major university. I have done my best to not be a target. But last night was too much. I am a school teacher and my wife and I chaperoned the high school homecoming. On my way home I noticed a state police checkpoint. I turned off down a side road to avoid it. I made sure I was legal in all aspects. I used my turn signal and made sure I didn't cross the line. Well guess what. I got pulled over. The first question why I was avoiding the state police checkpoint. I told him I had been chaperoning all night at my schools homecoming dance and it was late and I didn't want the hassle. He then told me that he pulled me over of not signaling. I told him I was sure I signaled. My wife and daughter even verified. What do you say? Basically LEOs can make up stuff and who am I to argue. He was polite and ran my license. Still, he lied and used that as access to pull me over. I guess I'm frustrated this happens in a civilized society, what about if things tank? My daughter already has a distrust of LEOs. This had done nothing but perpetuate. I know we can say not all are like that, but it only takes a few due to position.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

not making yourself a target is spot on 

but you made yourself a target by turning off , they were looking for people who turned off trying to avoid


next question , was there a fugitive on the loose that they had a check point set up ?

how can the stopping of all traffic be ok? how far have we fallen if allowing police to search every car without probable cause or a warrant is ok ?


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## Veronica (Oct 31, 2008)

Here once a month or so, they run a checkpoint during the day. Since it is toward the end of the month, I'm fairly sure it is to check registrations, licenses, etc to make sure everything is current. Otherwise, they ticket them.
They stop people right in the middle of a hilly, fairly busy rural road, and it always worries me someone is going to plow into the stopped cars.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

We had a state trooper once tell us we were speeding. No we had our cruise on set 5 under the limit (just in case it is off a little).
However a car in the other lane had zoomed by going at least 20 mph faster than we were. He couldn't catch them so he decided to catch us.
He then told us our tires were too big and that meant our speedometer would be off...

I have the original factory order for this truck... these are the same tires the factory put on her and i always buy my tires to specs. 

another time a trooper pulled us over because our license plate was slightly bent and she couldn't read the front plate. (Back plate was fine and clearly readable)
She wanted ids on my minor sons in the back seat too and was miffed that a 15 and 13 year old did not have a state id... I didn't have my wallet with me but have my license number memorized. That bothered her too. 

I admire the LEOs for the job they hold but they need to be beefing up on what is a crime and what is not and stop harassing folks just cuz they can.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Why avoid them when you can get acquainted? Get acquainted through volunteer activities like CERT teams, and fire, or EMS services. Fire departments often have support groups. I can't count the number of times my beater has been pulled over. Once they see who it is, I'm given a warning if anything.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I do not agree with these checkpoint stops, it just dosne't seem like it should be legal. Search without probable cause? and then they get miffed if you don't comply.
I'm really getting tired of all this control nonsence, it's everywhere now. Stop asking me Questions- Dr,Insurance co., IRS, Cencus, Animal Tag people, Ag survey-just shut up- I ain't awnsering!


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

Not a fan of state troopers. Seems they are less about "serving" than your typical city or county law enforcement person. Still, they have a tough job and I appreciate what they do - I am sure that several times a year, they are on the scene where a fatal accident occurs and may even have to inform next of kin. So it is important to let the "good ones" know that you appreciate them, whether at state, county, or city level. Making their job more desirable will attract the "right" kind of cop - the one that wants to _protect and serve_.

There is nobody as good as a good cop but there is nobody as bad as a bad one.


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

They set up drunk driving checkpoints here but they advertise them ahead of time. Huh?? Seems like a stupid thing to set up a checkpoint then warn everyone that there's a checkpoint on that day/time.

I agree that stopping people for no reason should be wrong. Seems like "search and seizure" without reason to me.

But by turning to avoid the checkpoint, you did attract their attention. The cop should have just stopped with that instead of lying about the turn signal. I would bet they were hoping to catch drunk kids leaving the high school event.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Wolfy-hound said:


> But by turning to avoid the checkpoint, you did attract their attention. The cop should have just stopped with that instead of lying about the turn signal. I would bet they were hoping to catch drunk kids leaving the high school event.


He lied because pulling you over for avoiding a checkpoint is illegal. It does not constitute probable cause for a stop.

What you have there, is a criminal cop.

If he'll lie about the reason for pulling you over, would he also plant drugs in your car if he decided he didn't like you?


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Large police organizations do psychological testing of recruits, but I'm wondering if they're not looking for the wrong personality traits. It seems ex-high school bullies, control freaks, and other disturbing pathologies are drawn towards the profession, and not screened out.

I won't bore you with all the details, but years ago a Texas state HP kid, baby fat with pimples, pulled me over. When he was giving me my license back he said "Mr. ____ let me give you some advice, slow down". I replied "let me give you some advice, knock off the coca-colas and chocolate bars and your face will clear up". Luckily, he's already written the ticket.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Stuff like this is part of why I now use a dashcam all the time. Less than $50 - cheap insurance. Dashcams also record the audio, which means the blinker sound, conversation with the cop, and all get recorded.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

On our trip here, I got pulled over by a small town cop. It was on Sunday a week ago. I was behind 3 cars, the one in front of me turned off. She was not in my sight at that time. I had to slow way down because there was a car coming toward me and the car that turned was an old couple, almost stopped before turning. I was in a 35 mile zone when she passed me going the opposite way, turned around, came up behind me and turned her lights on. I was going 45, behind another car, in a 55 when she turned her lights on. She told me I was going faster than 20 in THE school zone. I asked her how fast, she would not say. I told her she was full of ----. She did not have me on radar because she was not there at the school zone. I would not give her a thing, said no more, just sat there for 3 minutes and she stammered and walked in circles, finally giving me a warning about the speed zone then telling me to go. I just sat there, she got in her patrol car spun a u ball and headed into town, I turned around in the next driveway and followed her, she was doing 30 in the 20 school zone and all through town, 20 mile/hr speed zone as I was too. I followed her right to the city hall. She parked and I drove right by and parked right in front of city hall, we got out and walked into city hall asking for an officer on duty. The Chief was there, we gave him our complaint and cell phone number. The chief called me Friday and told me she had been fired. I have no problem with DUI check points but I only show my drivers license, I don't drink, ever. I have never had or even been asked to have my car searched. I probably talk to my counties Sherriff at least once a week, not an officer the Sherriff himself. I have no problem telling them if/when they are out of line. We have a great neighborhood watch program here in this county and we work together....James


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## illinoisguy (Sep 4, 2011)

Darren, I understand you point. But it was 11:30 at night and I was 30 minutes from home and I did not want to build a relationship with anyone at that hour.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

In my part of the world we have trouble with them running drugs....seeing the amount of cash they find in drug "raids"...I wonder how often cash and drugs are found and in the dealer is glad enough to be turned loose to turn loose his money, drugs or both....."evidence" has a funny way of disappearing in time past


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I worked in a small city and saw a lot of that. They liked hiring young officers, many let it go to their head but it seemed they were wanted in larger cities when the good old boy supervisors got tired of their crap. Or when they could no longer keep the problems quiet. Seems they hire a new Chief every 3-4 years but the Deputy Chief never moves up. Knows the dirt on the city councilors too well, it seems. The old Chief gets blamed for the problems....James


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Ernie said:


> He lied because pulling you over for avoiding a checkpoint is illegal. It does not constitute probable cause for a stop.
> 
> What you have there, is a criminal cop.
> 
> If he'll lie about the reason for pulling you over, would he also plant drugs in your car if he decided he didn't like you?


I have a serious opinion or attitude about this but best remain silent at this time.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Large police organizations do psychological testing of recruits, but I'm wondering if they're not looking for the wrong personality traits. It seems ex-high school bullies, control freaks, and other disturbing pathologies are drawn towards the profession, and not screened out.


I have always said that many Cops are bad guys that weren't "bad" enough to get away with anything-so they did the next best thing and became a Cop.
No offense to Good Cops, I've known many.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I'm seriously considering a dash cam. Where did you get yours Harry?

I don't trust cops. Never have, never will. My great uncle was once chief of police in a major Ohio city. I've heard way too many stories of corruption and "good ol' boys".


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

Wait a sec! As a retired big city cop and can state without a doubt he/she may not have seen your signal! To state that any person was "lying" based on the truth as you know it is to disrespect the truth as "they" know it. Maybe every one here is telling the truth. I once worked a bank robbery when I was a detective where the bank was not busy at the time of the robbery. Still out of the twenty people in the bank we could not get a consensus on the description of the robbers, their weapons, what they said or what they did. That would be twenty good citizens telling us the "truth" as they saw it.


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## illinoisguy (Sep 4, 2011)

Yes I did. Are you suggesting that if police don't see it, then it is grounds for a righteous stop?

If that is the case, a cop can turn their head or close their eyes when you pull up to a stop sign and say you did not stop.

That doesn't fly.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

If he can't see a signal light, I'd suggest a new line of work. Who needs vision impaired cops out there ?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

There was a very interesting radio interview today on this American life about a guy from NYC81 precinct and all the documenting he did of his supervisor misrepresenting , down grading , and outright creating a reason to issue a citation.

the one that really strikes hard at you that they weren't just jerks harassing kids , was when they caught a guy on first degree sexual assault, Rape in civilian terms , the detective asked if this was the first time the guy had done this , and the guy said no , how many the detective asked , and when, 7 or 8 , in this neighborhood and in the last months , they then took the guy for a drive where he showed them the buildings he had raped women in by pointing them out from the back of the car

the detective looked thru the complaints and found every woman had filed a report and that the supervisors reclassified most of them domestic assault , or robbery , so they had let a serial rapist go completely unchecked and no warning to the public.

a bunch of cities have been found to be doing this type of thing down grading things in their reporting so that the city looks better.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Danaus29 said:


> I'm seriously considering a dash cam. Where did you get yours Harry?
> 
> I don't trust cops. Never have, never will. My great uncle was once chief of police in a major Ohio city. I've heard way too many stories of corruption and "good ol' boys".


Amazon - got one, got another to test out as a security cam.
2.5-inch HD Car LED IR Vehicle DVR Road Dash Video Camera Recorder Traffic Dashboard Camcorder - LCD 270 degrees whirl 

http://www.amazon.com/2-5-inch-Vehi...=merchant-items&ie=UTF8&qid=1380497090&sr=1-8Don't expect high quality images, it is a generic 640/480 cam. The ones with better night vision have a purple tint in the trees and sky.​


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## whodunit (Mar 29, 2004)

Just offering a suggestion but could it have been that you didn't signal properly? In Idaho, and I am sure in other states, you must signal no less than 100 feet from your intended turn.

My understanding of checkpoints is that they have been deemed legal by the courts as far as they follow certain rules. A few of these from memory are announcing the checkpoint via signage in advance of the checkpoint and then having exits for people who want to avoid the checkpoint to turn off. Typically they then have "chase" vehicles to follow those people and develop "probable cause" to stop. Those who go through the checkpoint are doing so voluntarily since they have been warned and could have turned off, if they wanted to.

I didn't work many of these, but have made hundreds of traffic stops. If I was out looking for drunk drivers, I wouldn't even bother writing tickets if someone was sober, but I NEVER stopped anyone illegally and I could tell within seconds whether to pursue a DUI investigation on the driver. In my jurisdiction the judge required "probable cause" which typically is an actual violation of any law including not signalling, having a dirty license plate, or a cracked windshield. In many jurisdictions the standard is lower and known as "reasonable suspicion" meaning the officer can articulate a set of existing circumstances that would lead a normal person to believe that the driver in intoxicated. These would typically be things which are not illegal in and of themselves such like driving slower than the speed limit, weaving within a lane, time of day, vicinity of drinking establishments, tapping the brakes repeatedly, stopping too long at stopsigns, alcohol containers falling out of the vehicle ...


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

MJsLady said:


> We had a state trooper once tell us we were speeding. No we had our cruise on set 5 under the limit (just in case it is off a little).
> However a car in the other lane had zoomed by going at least 20 mph faster than we were. He couldn't catch them so he decided to catch us.
> He then told us our tires were too big and that meant our speedometer would be off...
> 
> I have the original factory order for this truck... these are the same tires the factory put on her and i always buy my tires to specs.


That happened to me back when I was travelling for my job. (oh sigh, the days of good work).

Section of I85 Greenville/Spartanburg SC where the limit drops 70 to 60 for a few miles and the troopers camped there. i knew this, and always set my cruise for 62. One day an suv, actually 2 vehicles blew by me, but one particularly fast, just zooming. I thought to myself "boy, you're probably gonna get it." Trooper pulled me about a 2 miles later. 

*trooper* - you know you were going about 83 miles an hour?
*me* - no I was not
*trooper* - yes ma'am you were. i got you clocked.
*me* - not me, you don't. but i know who it was. blew me a little sideways when that car passed me. it was black and an suv. there was a white car too, but not quite as fast as the other.
... as I'm passing him my license and reg
*trooper* - No, I never lost sight of you. ((LIE!!!!!!!!!!! not possible for the road we were on)) I'm going to have to write you a ticket for speeding.
*me* - I know this road and I had my cruise control set on 62.
*trooper* - so you admit you were speeding then...
*me* - yeah, if you want to give me a ticket for 62 in a 60, then that is fine with me. you give me a ticket for 80 whatever or anything else, you can just carry me on to the jail. I ain't signing nothin. you've pulled the wrong car. that was not me going that fast. that guy is long gone.
*trooper* - you were going 80 miles an hour and I'm going to have to write you a citation today.
*me* - not for that number. I ain't signing it. I got my attorney right here ready to call and we'll do whatever, but I am not gettin a ticket today for 80 nothin. I saw you back there right on the side of the interstate under the bridge. I am not the car you clocked.
(my head is largely composed of rock, yes, I know) 
*trooper* - you know, when I pulled you over today, I was just going to give you a warning ((_what a complete and blatent total lie!!!!!!!!!!! a state trooper has never pulled anyone with intent to give warning, certainly not when thinking they got a 20 miles over_)) but you are giving me such a hard time I think I should just give you a ticket.
*me* - right, well, like I said, you write it for some crazy number like you're saying, and you can just keep it and show it to all them at the closest jail because I am not the car you clocked. I won't take your copy, and I won't sign it, and we will be in court with all the who said what said. I know how that will go, but I'll do it anyway.
_he can see that I'm squinting and trying to read his name and writing it down._
*trooper *- wait right here please
...
...

...
*trooper* - this is a warning for speeding. you make sure you slow it down.
*me* - snatch, window up, etc. gone.

jack... I mean donkey. This guy had to get from zero to 80 and then some to try to catch this fella. There was a curve, a hill, and plenty of reasons he was completely lying.

They can make stuff up anytime. I have no idea what not accepting the ticket would have done. I'm sure nothing. But I know I was prepared to be hauled off, just to mess up his day if I could. Then without anyone to back my side of the story, who do you think they would believe? Oh well.

We're at the mercy of LEO all too often.


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

Let me start by saying I have never in my life been accused/convicted of a crime or had a bad experience with LEO's. Now that I've said that, never once mistake that LEO's are part of the government/establishment. There are good and bad ones, but they stick together like glue. The bad ones are made even worse by their sense of superiority. There is a 90% chance that they would sell you up the river before one of their own.

You are definitely right about the fact that if it is a "he said she said" situation that their word will automatically be taken as truth over yours. I know a couple cops and they definitely are part of the entitlement crowd and never remember for one minute that they work for the public and not the other way around.


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

Let me start by saying I have never in my life been accused/convicted of a crime or had a bad experience with LEO's. Now that I've said that, never once mistake that LEO's are part of the government/establishment. There are good and bad ones, but they stick together like glue. The bad ones are made even worse by their sense of superiority. There is a 90% chance that they would sell you up the river before one of their own.

You are definitely right about the fact that if it is a "he said she said" situation that their word will automatically be taken as truth over yours. I know a couple cops and they definitely are part of the entitlement crowd and never remember for one minute that they work for the public and not the other way around.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

One thing to remember the police can do any thing they want to but making it stick in court is another thing. I never argue wit a police because you are bound to lose.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I have heard that "police are always right" argument way too often. I've got an accident report that proves cops can be seriously "mistaken" if not outright liars.

Thanks Harry. I'll check that out.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

whodunit said:


> My understanding of checkpoints is that they have been deemed legal by the courts as far as they follow certain rules.


They are "legal", and the courts are not adhering to the Bill of Rights, as of the New Deal. They are, however, basing the great majority of their decisions on the fact that the people have waived their right to travel for the licensed and registered privilege of driving. In doing so, by entering a commercial venue, the people are also presumed to have waived their 4th, among others.

Nothing about today's police force, whether local, state nor federal, has anything to do with the Bill of Rights.

It is ALL about revenue generation and conditioning the recipients of the New Deal to accept their chains of regulation. Their jurisdiction is based upon the contractual nexus of your consent.......consent by participation.

If you want to enjoy the exercise of rights, you will have to relinquish all state granted privileges. 

If you want to experience life in it's raw form, I'd say go for it.

Otherwise, best just get used to the feel of shackles.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Never turn off before a check point unless your turn off was planned and you signaled adequately before it. Even if it was a planned turn off and properly signaled for the required distance, its likely you will get checked at one of the turn off one car check points as many LEAs now set up satellite check points on roads around their primary check point to reduce parking congestion of chase cars for checking those who try to avoid the primary check points.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

I have a 3x5 American flag sticker on my bumper and rear window of every car/truck/trailer we own and a smaller one on the rear side windows .They work on the "psychological factor" of every law enforcement officer that has an American flag on their uniform I can not count how many times we have been waved at or allowed to proceed thru a DUI/license check point with NO issues ever ! Try it you will be AMAZED !


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

Might be a good idea to get one of those cameras in our car. One that could clearly show you using the signal and then show your interaction w/the cop. They are waging war for your money, thats all it really boils down too and they are using cameras, radios, radar, guns, and computers to get it. Why not employ some of the same strategies to help you keep it?


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

I have to add that a clean car/truck "for in town people" with all the lights that work would be a helpful tip ,if your lights don't work or your car looks bad just one more reason for them to look at the driver .


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I'm married to a cop. I don't avoid the police 

Cops are humans, sometimes they make mistakes. Some of them are mean and have bad intentions. Most of them just want to do their jobs and go home to their family :shrug:

Traffic stops are the most dangerous things most cops do. Lots of people with outstanding warrants are caught because of traffic stops, and the ones that don't want to get caught will get violent to prevent capture. 

And sometimes when you think a cop is being a jerk, he's really doing you a favor. My DH will immediately approach anyone open-carrying (which is perfectly legal as long as you aren't a felon) and chat with them. You may think he's infringing on your rights, but he does it so when all the sheeple start calling the dept freaking out about the person with a gun, they can tell them that an officer has already checked the person out and that they're well within their rights. It stops sheeple-vigalinte-wannabes from doing something stupid out of fear.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

open carrying in east ,Tn barely raises an eye around here .it's pretty much a given that every truck/car has at least 1 under the seat if not more than 1. besides if you need a cop around here best to look behind the church or at their girlfriends house or getting another free lunch at the local burger joint .


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Going by the OP's name.. I see the problem.. Illinois... I moved WAY away from that state and will never go back... 

In that state, as far as the cops are concerned, Laws are for Ye and Thee.. not Me... My mom worked for a PD there.. I knew most all the cops well, and even partied with them in the local bars... You wouldn't believe some of the stories they've told me... All the more reason I too do all I can to avoid a cop...


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## Pinetop Hunting (Aug 1, 2013)

I was a cop/investigator/administrator/trainer for many years. I'm not anymore. Mess like this is exactly why.

I actually avoid them and dislike the entire justice system. Not all are bad but there are some real idiots who do that job. Untrustworthy,shady and a thuggish herd mentality. I have no use for any of em anymore really.


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## illinoisguy (Sep 4, 2011)

...............


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Many of us in FREE states wonder why some of you tolerate the states your in ?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Grumpy old man said:


> Many of us in FREE states wonder why some of you tolerate the states your in ?


http://www.infowars.com/dhs-announces-halloween-checkpoints-in-tennessee-to-keep-children-safe/

Might ask you the same thing.

Didn't see you on the news fighting when DHS decided to set up checkpoints in your free state.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Ernie said:


> http://www.infowars.com/dhs-announces-halloween-checkpoints-in-tennessee-to-keep-children-safe/
> 
> Might ask you the same thing.
> 
> Didn't see you on the news fighting when DHS decided to set up checkpoints in your free state.


Halloween check points ? Good I'm glad they did ! we have no state income tax , open carry laws , and Lamar Alexander What more could you ask for ? Heck even Elvis liked it here !


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Grumpy old man said:


> Halloween check points ? Good I'm glad they did ! we have no state income tax , open carry laws , and Lamar Alexander What more could you ask for ? Heck even Elvis liked it here !


You approve of the Department of Homeland Security setting up checkpoints in your _free_ state?


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Well , Their not looking for draft dodgers ,Seems the local illegal aliens are still around, haven't heard of anyone being arrested for being American lately . sure let them do whatever they want ,they aren't bothering me up here in the sticks and that's the way I like it .


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

And yes Elvis is still alive I saw him and Johnny Cash playing guitars at the local feed store last nite !


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## goodatit (May 1, 2013)

power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

it's a known fact the best place to hide is in plain site .


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## bsmit24 (Dec 31, 2012)

bluemoonluck said:


> I'm married to a cop. I don't avoid the police
> 
> Cops are humans, sometimes they make mistakes. Some of them are mean and have bad intentions. Most of them just want to do their jobs and go home to their family :shrug:
> 
> ...


It depends in what manner he does so, if he approaches them as anyone else would do that is not a problem, if he stops them and questions them simply because they are participating in a legal activity then he may very well be infringing on their rights. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

You have rights and being approached and questioned with no suspision is not right in any state


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## bsmit24 (Dec 31, 2012)

Grumpy old man said:


> You have rights and being approached and questioned with no suspision is not right in any state


That is what I am saying, the police can approach and speak with you just like anyone else can and there is no infringement on your rights but if you are not free to leave during that "questioning" then you have been detained without cause.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I think you should get out some more Grumpy... The things I see around my area, I'm so sad to see where this country is going... I'm just glad I don't live in NY with stop and frisk.. I know I'd end up in jail for losing my temper.. I'm also not going to be a happy camper is I ever get stopped for a checkpoint... 

I live in America.. a place where you should never expect to show your papers and be fondled without reason..


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

whodunit said:


> Just offering a suggestion but could it have been that you didn't signal properly? In Idaho, and I am sure in other states, you must signal no less than 100 feet from your intended turn.
> 
> My understanding of checkpoints is that they have been deemed legal by the courts as far as they follow certain rules. A few of these from memory are announcing the checkpoint via signage in advance of the checkpoint and then having exits for people who want to avoid the checkpoint to turn off. Typically they then have "chase" vehicles to follow those people and develop "probable cause" to stop. Those who go through the checkpoint are doing so voluntarily since they have been warned and could have turned off, if they wanted to.
> 
> I didn't work many of these, but have made hundreds of traffic stops. If I was out looking for drunk drivers, I wouldn't even bother writing tickets if someone was sober, but I NEVER stopped anyone illegally and I could tell within seconds whether to pursue a DUI investigation on the driver. In my jurisdiction the judge required "probable cause" which typically is an actual violation of any law including not signalling, having a dirty license plate, or a cracked windshield. In many jurisdictions the standard is lower and known as "reasonable suspicion" meaning the officer can articulate a set of existing circumstances that would lead a normal person to believe that the driver in intoxicated. These would typically be things which are not illegal in and of themselves such like driving slower than the speed limit, weaving within a lane, time of day, vicinity of drinking establishments, tapping the brakes repeatedly, stopping too long at stopsigns, alcohol containers falling out of the vehicle ...


"Reasonable suspicion" sounds a bit like using the constitution for a door mat. How about "let me see your warrant".


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

These articles from Police Chief Magazine offer some insight into current checkpoint requirements, restrictions and latitude.

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/...on=display_arch&article_id=234&issue_id=32004

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/...on=display_arch&article_id=541&issue_id=32005


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## raybait1 (Sep 30, 2006)

They've sworn an oath to protect and serve you... until it hurts.


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## whodunit (Mar 29, 2004)

edcopp said:


> "Reasonable suspicion" sounds a bit like using the constitution for a door mat. How about "let me see your warrant".


Not saying I agreed with "reasonable suspicion". The judge wanted "probable cause" so that is what I gave him. Yes, even allowing a suspected drunk driver to continue on his way and possibly wreak havoc on innocents.

"Probable cause" was much cleaner. We had video cameras and 9 out of ten times I had the actual violation on tape, as well as the field sobriety tests and the empty bottles of beer rolling out of the vehicle when they opened their door. 

Do you honestly believe that the Founding Fathers expected the police to obtain a warrant before taking action when a crime was occurring right in front of them? That thwy wanted people to be able to commit crimes and say, "Neener, neener, neener" to the warrantless police man?


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Shrek said:


> These articles from Police Chief Magazine offer some insight into current checkpoint requirements, restrictions and latitude.
> 
> http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/...on=display_arch&article_id=234&issue_id=32004
> 
> http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/...on=display_arch&article_id=541&issue_id=32005



I'm just waiting for someone to take a spray bottle, fill it with a mixture of water and crushed marijuana, and spritz it around the trunks of cars owned by judges.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

simi-steading said:


> I think you should get out some more Grumpy... The things I see around my area, I'm so sad to see where this country is going... I'm just glad I don't live in NY with stop and frisk.. I know I'd end up in jail for losing my temper.. I'm also not going to be a happy camper is I ever get stopped for a checkpoint...
> 
> I live in America.. a place where you should never expect to show your papers and be fondled without reason..


It's hard to get arrested at one of these checkpoints. I've tried. They ask where I'm going and I tell them it's none of their business. They wave me on the way and say "have a nice day".

I figure they don't really want to test the constitutionality of these things with someone willing to go to jail over that. They're probably raking in too much money in fines and tickets to risk upsetting that gravy train.


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## whodunit (Mar 29, 2004)

Ernie said:


> It's hard to get arrested at one of these checkpoints. I've tried. They ask where I'm going and I tell them it's none of their business. They wave me on the way and say "have a nice day".
> 
> I figure they don't really want to test the constitutionality of these things with someone willing to go to jail over that. They're probably raking in too much money in fines and tickets to risk upsetting that gravy train.


Like I said, I could tell within seconds if was worth checking further into someone's sobriety.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

whodunit said:


> Like I said, I could tell within seconds if was worth checking further into someone's sobriety.


I don't mind being pulled over if I'm driving erratically or giving indicators that I might not be sober. Drunk drivers are a real problem and, so long as the cop is polite about it, I don't mind spending a moment or two chatting with them.

I was coming back on a long haul one time and pushed it further than I had. I usually do not drive tired, but I was in that long stretch of Michigan between Ann Arbor and Indiana (headed west) where there's just not a lot of hotels and I wanted to get across the state line. I was exhausted and I was weaving. A cop pulled me over to check it out and was very professional about it. Not bad at all for a Michigan state trooper. I told him I was just too tired and had been going for too long. He advised I turn off at the next exit and told me where a good hotel was. I took his advice. For all I know, that saved my life. I could have wound up in a ditch.

But sobriety checkpoints are not constitutional. They have no authority to investigate all traffic traveling there. If we concede that they have that right, there is nothing they can't do in the name of public safety.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

We want them to show up immediately when we call but stay away the rest of the time ? it's hard for everyone to find a happy medium times are changing and many of us aren't happy with change .


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Grumpy old man said:


> We want them to show up immediately when we call but stay away the rest of the time ? it's hard for everyone to find a happy medium times are changing and many of us aren't happy with change .


Seems to work fine for the fire department.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Grumpy old man said:


> We want them to show up immediately when we call but stay away the rest of the time ? it's hard for everyone to find a happy medium times are changing and many of us aren't happy with change .


Exactly. It's a no-win situation. If the cops don't do something preventative and bad things happen, they get slaughtered by the press/public for not doing their job. If they're proactive, people/the press scream they're infringing on our rights :shrug:

My DH is always polite when he approaches folks open-carrying. He'll explain that he's just trying to head off panicking sheeple and he'll even talk shop with them (DH is a firearms instructor). 

I realize that some if not most of you disagree with him doing this. But imagine the outcry if the police ignored someone open-carrying and that person started shooting people in the street! Then everyone would be outraged that the police couldn't be bothered to get off their duffs and do their job :shrug:

Like I said, no-win.....


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

As long as he doesn't become offended if I choose not to stop and chat with him I'm good .


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

bluemoonluck said:


> I realize that some if not most of you disagree with him doing this. But imagine the outcry if the police ignored someone open-carrying and that person started shooting people in the street! Then everyone would be outraged that the police couldn't be bothered to get off their duffs and do their job :shrug:
> 
> Like I said, no-win.....


Their "job" doesn't start UNTIL someone starts shooting people in the street.

Their JOB is not to stop people on the street to find out if they're a criminal or going to shoot people. 

That's why we have this problem. People don't understand that distinction.

What would your husband do if one of those people who was carrying legal when he approached them said "go away and mind your own business"?

You wouldn't put up with a cop coming up to you in a parking lot and asking you if your car was stolen or if you were planning on running any stop signs later that day.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Their _job_ is to enforce a barely concealed marshall law police state since Roosevelt's "New Deal".

All else is a front.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Their "job" doesn't start UNTIL someone starts shooting people in the street.
> 
> Their JOB is not to stop people on the street to find out if they're a criminal or going to shoot people.
> 
> ...


And people would sue the department AND WIN if their loved one was shot and killed on the street by someone open carrying who the cops made no attempt to contact :shrug:. Like it or not, that's the society we live in now, and the police have to cover themselves just like everyone else to help prevent expensive lawsuits.

TBH my husband has never had someone treat him that rudely regarding open carry - he approaches them with a friendly demeanor and he tells them up front that he is aware that they are well within their rights to open carry in this state as long as they are not a felon. In 15 years of law enforcement he's NEVER had a single person not be willing to spend 3 minutes chatting with him :shrug:. So honestly IDK what he would do if someone refused to chat with him and told him to get lost. 

He might assume that the reason they aren't willing to talk to the cops is because they ARE a convicted felon and therefore NOT within their legal right to open carry :shrug:. But he and all the officers in his dept are big 2nd amendment guys and they also do not illegally detain anyone. Their entire command line emphasizes to them that cops are not above the law, and any integrity issues in his department results in immediate termination. 

So my guess is that he would back off and allow the person to go about their day. That person would just have to be prepared to be approached by multiple officers that day, because they have to respond to all calls regarding firearms (per their legal department). 

So I guess if you'd rather have cops walking up to you all day and you being rude to them all day than just spend 3 minutes with the first cop so he can confirm you're not one of the felons who's not allowed to possess a firearm, that's up to you :shrug:. 

And if I had a coat hanger in the window of my car because I locked the keys inside I'd fully expect a cop to stop and investigate to make sure I'm not stealing something that isn't mine. 

Like I said, cops get slammed for not doing enough to be proactive, then when they do proactive stuff they get slammed for that too. No-win :shrug:


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

bluemoonluck said:


> So I guess if you'd rather have cops walking up to you all day and you being rude to them all day than just spend 3 minutes with the first cop so he can confirm you're not one of the felons who's not allowed to possess a firearm, that's up to you :shrug:.


Actually, it's not up to me. It's in the Constitution.

We have the right to be secure. Coming up without probable cause (and exercising your rights is NOT probable cause) and wanting to know whether or not I'm a felon is a violation of the Fourth Amendment. 

The Supreme Court may have ruled that the police can demand someone present their ID upon request (papers, please?) but that doesn't make it Constitutional.

It just makes the Supreme Court compliant.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

The supreme court is upholding contract law.....as per the constitutional clause referring to _admiralty_ and _equity_ jurisdiction...as well as _common law_ jurisdiction.

The constitution is, therefore, your well-laid trap.

Now, if public education made certain that the students knew the difference......well.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I think it's admirable that she's defending her husband, and based on some prior posts I think he's probably a good guy ... but he's wrong in this. It's just one more example of how a good cop in a corrupt system gets backed into a corner and forced into doing the wrong thing.

And I would be surprised if, out of the hundreds of citizens he's stopped and harassed for open carrying, if he's EVER found a single felon among them. I don't know too many felons who boldly walk around with a handgun on their hip.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Agreed. One should admire a woman to stand by her husband.

One might also sympathize with those who are wantonly blinded to truth for their comfortable proximity to the lie.........maybe......


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Forerunner said:


> One might also sympathize with those who are wantonly blinded to truth for their comfortable proximity to the lie.........maybe......


Me .. for a DECADE or more. 

The lie paid better than the truth, but I sleep better at night now.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

On the original question.....
Sadly I think avoiding them or not ticking them off or hoping that you come across one that is in a good mood is for the best.

It used to be stories of rough treatment only for rough charaters,
but now it is housewives, families, by-standers etc.. that are in danger from rogue cops.
The stories of violence are more and more prevalent.
I haven't been stopped etc.. in quite a while, but i am very concerned about that happening.
I am a reasonable, strong, brave, non-stupid person, but I am not sure how well I could hold it together anymore. I have a tendency to shake very badly when in a situation where I have no options.. like in the dentist chair.
My fight/flight wants to kick in, but is being held in check.
Would my obvious distress make me a point of interest? You bet.
Or I could just be cool as usual.
Eventually I will find out.

Oh boy.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Ernie said:


> Their "job" doesn't start UNTIL someone starts shooting people in the street.
> 
> Their JOB is not to stop people on the street to find out if they're a criminal or going to shoot people.


I have an idea and it just occurred to me and no one has ever had this idea before. Let's create a police force where a highly skilled minority report, find, and arrest criminals BEFORE they commit their crime. It would work great unless a member of this department wanted to commit a murder. 

This is such a good idea and going to see if i can develop it into a movie script. I don't know why no one has ever thought of this before. :l33t:


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Yes there is an awful lot of stupid criminals....

But I gotta ask you this; Is Joe Criminal, who is intending on robbing the store down the street, going to open carry . . . . ?!?!

.......Of course not..............

His hand gun is in a pocket.....

As for the "mass shooters" they go quietly concealed to the restricted gun areas before doing their nasty thing.........

So the chances of getting a felon sauntering down the street, open carrying, are slim to none..............


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

bluemoonluck said:


> And people would sue the department AND WIN if their loved one was shot and killed on the street by someone open carrying who the cops made no attempt to contact :shrug:. Like it or not, that's the society we live in now, and the police have to cover themselves just like everyone else to help prevent expensive lawsuits.


Bull! The SCOTUS has already decided in a previous case that police have NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT to prevent crime or protect any given individual. So even if someone won an initial lawsuit it would be struck down on appeal.


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## Joe Prepper (Jul 25, 2011)

bluemoonluck said:


> Exactly. It's a no-win situation. If the cops don't do something preventative and bad things happen, they get slaughtered by the press/public for not doing their job. If they're proactive, people/the press scream they're infringing on our rights :shrug:
> 
> My DH is always polite when he approaches folks open-carrying. He'll explain that he's just trying to head off panicking sheeple and he'll even talk shop with them (DH is a firearms instructor).
> 
> ...


 First let me say I respect the ideals and dangerous duties of LE. It might be a cliche, but I have life long friends in LE and know a little something about trusting the guy next to you. That said, it's a fraternity. Just like the military, fire dept....etc. Rule#1 in that fraternity covers a code of silence. Call it Blue Code... Brother's Shield...whatever..they take care of their own until it hurts. That kinship and strong bond is what many families of LEO like most about their career choice. Stands to reason, and if you have ever been a part of something even remotely close to this you will understand why it can be unnerving when you are viewed as suspicious by such a brotherhood.

If you are not "wearing blue" when an officer walks in your direction, you are outside the circle of trust, period. You are assumed possibly guilty until no probable cause is found. Wright or wrong, it is justified by rule#2.......come home safely ever night. Good rule, but with every close call on duty it gets easier and easier to justify whittling away at the outer shell of reasonable suspicion and citizens rights to privacy among other things. Unfortunately most places are not like Mayberry...LEO's are not always like Andy and most criminals aren't as easily handled as Otis. 

Your DH, who hopefully is a member of Oathkeepers, in trying to follow rule number 2, is trained to assume everyone is a potential threat. No problem there, any wary citizen might be inclined to do the same every time they leave the house, but....and it's a BIG BUTT :happy2: , he has the ability, and as you said, assumes an obligation, to intercede where no crime has been committed even if just to pacify the sheeple and/or possibly flesh out the one bad guy stupid enough to cause attention to himself..which we agree I am sure that open carry at this time does. The question now is who has the right...or more rights...to be comfortable with the conversation....or lack thereof? The law abiding citizen or the LEO just doing what he thinks is right or what he is told to do? What impact will this intervention have for each involved? Will this concern and subsequent questioning stop law abiding citizens from carrying firearms, and how could that affect the chances of a citizen being able to help themselves or others if need be? As a law abiding person I try to avoid being targeted by police and put into a situation where I am outside the circle....... it should be easy if I am not breaking the law right? 

When I was in highschool I had a very fast car. Many of us did. We raced outside of town on private property, but cruised through town on the weekends showing off our cars proudly....trying to impress the ladies. LE pulled us over on a regular bases. I don;t think I ever got a ticket, but some weekends we would get stopped multiple times by different officers..some nice.......some jerks. If there were reports of street racing in the area of course there were more questions than usual and we were usually asked to go home for our own good of course...since people were complaining. I don't know who complained, but I know when we were around LE felt the need to be in the area to "prevent racing". I paid for the car....I didn't street race...but I felt targeted every time I left the house. Finally, I traded it for something else. Eventually they made "cruising" illegal and I think now the kids just make meth and drink beer. The tactics, if not the reasoning is the same and I am afraid can produce the similar results with open carry. I don't intend to commit a crime and don't open carry to impress anyone. but how many people will feel intimidated by the questioning. I carry because I have the right and feel inclined to .......period. :hijacked: sorry> 

If you read this far, please tell him from me thank you for serving, and if he really wants to do good,.... tell everyone he "talks to" he is glad to see them open carry. Give a thumbs up to stores that have "We support open carry". Who knows, one of em might protect him one day. 

I'm pretty sure my local LEO's ...who are great guys I hunt and shoot with....unfortunately are probably handing out free "no guns allowed" signs at their" inform local businesses of their rights" town meetings. I know for a fact open carry makes most of them uneasy and at the very least creates a hassle for them. 


. :shrug:


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

.......hence the founders wise warning against sustaining a standing army and quartering troops among us.

They knew, all too well, the inescapable elitist tendencies and typical overreach of "men in power" vs the common man seeking to live in peace, unhindered.

Modern day police are here only to occupy and fleece the people on behalf of the principle who funded the New Deal.

Jefferson said it well.......

"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.
We must make our election between economy and liberty
or profusion and servitude.
If we run into such debt, as that we must be taxed in our meat and
in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and
our amusements, for our calling and our creeds...
[we will] have no time to think,
no means of calling our miss-managers to account
*but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves
to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers...*
And this is the tendency of all human governments.
A departure from principle in one instance
becomes a precedent for [another ]...
till the bulk of society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery...
And the fore-horse of this frightful team is public debt.
Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression."


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Great stuff forerunner. TJ and I thought much alike.


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## bsmit24 (Dec 31, 2012)

Pops2 said:


> Bull! The SCOTUS has already decided in a previous case that police have NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT to prevent crime or protect any given individual. So even if someone won an initial lawsuit it would be struck down on appeal.


+1 Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981) is an oft-quoted[2] District of Columbia Court of Appeals (equivalent to a state supreme court) case that held police do not have a duty to provide police services to individuals, even if a dispatcher promises help to be on the way, except when police develop a special duty to particular individuals.

There are many others 
South v. Maryland, 59 U.S. (How.) 396, 15 L.Ed.433 (1856)
DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, 489 U.S. 189, 109 S.Ct. 998, 1989 (1989)
Bowers v. Devito, 686 F.2d 616 (7th Cir. 1982)
Hartzler v. City of San Jose, 46 Cal.App.3d 6, 120 Cal.Rptr. 5 (1975)
Davidson v. City of Westminister, 32 Cal.3d 197, 185 Cal.Rptr. 252 (1982)
Westbrooks v. State, 173 Cal.App.3d 1203, 219 Cal.Rtr. 674 (1985)
Ne Casek v. City of Los Angeles, 233 Cal.App.2d 131, 43 Cal.Rptr. 294 (1965)
Susman v. City of Los Angeles, et al., 269 Cal.App.2d 803, 75 Cal.Rptr. 240 (1969)
Antique Arts Corp. v. City of Torrence, 39 Cal.App.3d 588, 114 Cal.Rptr. 332 (1974)


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

*"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance."*

That should be a phrase familiar to all diligent students of American History and her foundational underpinnings.

It should *NOT*, however, be the accepted norm in America today.

Those _swarms of officers_ have served King George, his principle and his agents, since the day they were _reintroduced_. They were never intended to serve the _people_, save as the main course on King George' dining table.

Bon appetit.


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## Jakk (Aug 14, 2008)

Instead of starting a conversation with someone open carrying to find out if they are a felon (papers please!), why not inform those people complaining on the phone that open carry is legal and that their emotions and feelings on open carry do not warrant harassing someone minding their own business.


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## Jakk (Aug 14, 2008)

Harry Chickpea said:


> Stuff like this is part of why I now use a dashcam all the time. Less than $50 - cheap insurance. Dashcams also record the audio, which means the blinker sound, conversation with the cop, and all get recorded.


Thank you Harry, I just ordered this from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008GAMNBK/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I like that it has a second camera taping the inside. I was pulled over once for not wearing a seat belt. I WAS wearing a seat belt but it was the officers word against mine. He didn't give me a ticket, but it still ticked me off.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Jakk said:


> Thank you Harry, I just ordered this from Amazon:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008GAMNBK/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> I like that it has a second camera taping the inside. I was pulled over once for not wearing a seat belt. I WAS wearing a seat belt but it was the officers word against mine. He didn't give me a ticket, but it still ticked me off.


Be sure to give us a review of that camera. If you like it I will probably get one also.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

All I know is any time I'm around and so are the police, my life isn't being very enjoyable.. Even when I'm not the one on the short end of their stick.


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

I agree with everything you said. The problem in my area and I suspect in most areas is the "good cops" and the union, protect and cover for the "mean and have bad intentions" cops.
Same concept with the teachers union, the bad are protected when they should be fired. In both examples, these people are in very influential and important positions and incompetence should not be tolerated, but it is.. 



bluemoonluck said:


> I'm married to a cop. I don't avoid the police
> 
> Cops are humans, sometimes they make mistakes. Some of them are mean and have bad intentions. Most of them just want to do their jobs and go home to their family :shrug:
> 
> ...


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

Gotta call you out on this Grumpy. Some are better than others, but no state is free anymore including yours. Sounds like your splittin' hairs.



Grumpy old man said:


> it's a known fact the best place to hide is in plain site .


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

Wow, that sucks!



Shrek said:


> These articles from Police Chief Magazine offer some insight into current checkpoint requirements, restrictions and latitude.
> 
> http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/...on=display_arch&article_id=234&issue_id=32004
> 
> http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/...on=display_arch&article_id=541&issue_id=32005


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

I know cops and have for decades. As a previous poster said, their is a "Blue Shield" that protects them. One cop I know got drunk and wrapped his truck around a phone pole in another jurisdiction. The cops in that town filed no report, called his brother, also a cop, and had him pick him up. No tickets, no report, never happened. There are good cops, but none of them violate the Blue Shield.
Went to another cops wedding. After listening for 2 hours to the cops at the table talk about the "animals" they serve and protect I got up and moved to another table. One of the cops was there with his mistress and it was OK with all the other cops. Cops have no obligation to protect you, but have a fraternal responsibility to protect each other. In my town they don't prevent crime or "serve and protect". They write tickets and police reports after the crime has occurred.
The apartment complex I work at has had 50 home invasions in the last 1.5 years. It is not just us, but every complex in a 1 mile radius that has experienced this so your talking 100's of home invasions. The police response to date has been to park an empty RV in the parking lot 3 times that says "This RV paid for with seized drug money" and have US hang flyers in the halls warning the residents to "Be alert"! Their advice to us is that we should get security! Excuse me, I thought that was your job! 
My point? The PD's job is to protect the PD not protect the citizens.


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## Jakk (Aug 14, 2008)

DEKE01 said:


> Be sure to give us a review of that camera. If you like it I will probably get one also.


I got the dash cam and have been playing around with it. Or, I should say my kids have been playing around on it! I got the one that shows the road and also has a backwards camera that shows the inside of the car. My youngest thinks this is awesome and has been making faces and waving at it :smack .

It was easy to set up, except the GPS seems to interfere with the radio stations so I disconnected it. I hit the default button by accident and it changed the language and display to Russian! Aside from that I had no problems setting it up. The display shuts off after about 20 seconds but it still records. I wish the display would stay lit up, but I can see where it would be a distraction while driving. I played it back on my computer and was happy with it. One word of caution, if you sing loud when alone in your car, be prepared to hear yourself when you play it back!

My only gripe is that I bought it on Amazon (I have Prime so it shipped overnight) and Amazon recommended an SD card that doesn't fit. It needs a 32 GB MICRO SD card, not the standard size. I was reading more of the reviews after I had bought the dashcam and that is where I read about the SD card needing to be a micro card. I went to Best Buy and bought the micro SD card, but if I hadn't read through all the reviews I wouldn't have known to have that before hand.

We are leaving Monday for a road trip from SC to FL. We are taking the kids to Disney and I will definitely be using this on the trip.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Jakk said:


> I got the dash cam and have been playing around with it. Or, I should say my kids have been playing around on it! I got the one that shows the road and also has a backwards camera that shows the inside of the car. My youngest thinks this is awesome and has been making faces and waving at it :smack .
> 
> It was easy to set up, except the GPS seems to interfere with the radio stations so I disconnected it. I hit the default button by accident and it changed the language and display to Russian! Aside from that I had no problems setting it up. The display shuts off after about 20 seconds but it still records. I wish the display would stay lit up, but I can see where it would be a distraction while driving. I played it back on my computer and was happy with it. One word of caution, if you sing loud when alone in your car, be prepared to hear yourself when you play it back!
> 
> ...


Good info. now let's test this thing out properly. Drive really fast through a school zone and when you get pulled over. roll down your window and yell something at the cop that starts with the letter "F". Then post the video.


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## Jakk (Aug 14, 2008)

DEKE01 said:


> Good info. now let's test this thing out properly. Drive really fast through a school zone and when you get pulled over. roll down your window and yell something at the cop that starts with the letter "F". Then post the video.



:rotfl: :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Jakk said:


> :rotfl: :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:


I am shocked at your selfish unwillingness to help out your fellow homesteaders. What nerve!


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

DEKE01 said:


> I have an idea and it just occurred to me and no one has ever had this idea before. Let's create a police force where a highly skilled minority report, find, and arrest criminals BEFORE they commit their crime. It would work great unless a member of this department wanted to commit a murder.
> 
> This is such a good idea and going to see if i can develop it into a movie script. I don't know why no one has ever thought of this before. :l33t:


I don't ask that people laugh at my lame jokes, but can someone at least acknowledge they get the reference?


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I got it, DEKE.

I even watched that a few weeks ago.

I'm sorry. :ashamed:

I shoulda spoke up sooner.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

bsmit24 said:


> +1 Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981) is an oft-quoted[2] District of Columbia Court of Appeals (equivalent to a state supreme court) case that held police do not have a duty to provide police services to individuals, even if a dispatcher promises help to be on the way, except when police develop a special duty to particular individuals.
> 
> There are many others
> South v. Maryland, 59 U.S. (How.) 396, 15 L.Ed.433 (1856)
> ...


Don't forget Castlerock vs Gonzales too.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/04-278.ZO.html


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

Jakk said:


> One word of caution, if you sing loud when alone in your car, be prepared to hear yourself when you play it back!


I assume that means it records audio too.

Be aware that in many states it is illegal to record audio and/or video. In my state you have to tell the person and get their permission.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

logbuilder said:


> I assume that means it records audio too.
> 
> Be aware that in many states it is illegal to record audio and/or video. In my state you have to tell the person and get their permission.


If they refuse to be taped you can use their own phrase on them - "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about".


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

logbuilder said:


> I assume that means it records audio too.
> 
> Be aware that in many states it is illegal to record audio and/or video. In my state you have to tell the person and get their permission.


SCOTUS has fairly consistently said that there is no expectation of privacy on a public street and that recording police engaged in their official duties is protected 1A activity. There are many laws against recording police, but they are falling as fast as they are challenged.


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## mamagoose (Nov 28, 2003)

Many LEOs are outright liars - I have hard evidence as proof. The courts rule against the accused when it's the word of the LEO against the accused, regardless if you have a witness in your favor. I've studied plenty of case histories in our state. They protect each other, not us, and simply ignore hard evidence. My husband and I became victims in 2009. We are still fighting for justice and vindication. 

Staying away from them without a recorder (and a backup) is a good idea. 

Also, unless a passenger in a vehicle is suspected (with probable cause) to have committed a crime, they do not have to show any ID or answer questions regarding their identity. This was tried on my adult son who was a passenger when his wife was pulled over (for "crossing the middle line", even though there was none), and he knew his rights and (calmly, he said) made the LEO aware of the same. It ended with no ticket and a letter to the chief about the harassment.


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## Jakk (Aug 14, 2008)

DEKE01 said:


> SCOTUS has fairly consistently said that there is no expectation of privacy on a public street and that recording police engaged in their official duties is protected 1A activity. There are many laws against recording police, but they are falling as fast as they are challenged.


That is my understanding too. As long as you are not in the way (as a bystander) and you keep your distance you can video/audio tape the police. If you are pulled over, you absolutely can video/audio tape a public servant while they are on the job. They don't like it, but they can't stop you.

I think notifying the person they are being recorded has to do with phone calls and wiretapping laws.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

I need to get a few of those cameras and face one towards the rear of my truck , I can't stand when I'm towing a trailer and equipment or animals and someone has to TAILGATE 5 feet off the back of the trailer ! :hair mostly the speed limit around here is 35 because the roads are steep and lots of blind curves and I've had these idiots pass doing 50 on a curve .....I think I'll rig a 55 gal barrel of pig droppings to release when pushed :heh:


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

How well I agree on the tail gateing.
But around here I get it on straight clear open roads.
I guess those idiots are doing a NASCAR thing . . .To save fuel

Grumpy you might consider doing a James Bond thing. His Aston Martin trick car had a sprayer of I think it was oil . . . .to cause the persuer to spin out.
I think a pig poop slury would do the trick.....


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## Slatewiper (Nov 22, 2012)

Darren said:


> Why avoid them when you can get acquainted? Get acquainted through volunteer activities like CERT teams, and fire, or EMS services. Fire departments often have support groups. I can't count the number of times my beater has been pulled over. Once they see who it is, I'm given a warning if anything.



Good thing our founding fathers didn't think like this. We would still be under the heel of the king. Screw cops, every single one of them.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Well , I wave to them when they pass , we drive the real speed limits +/ - 5mph and we rarely drive late at night ,and I have a thing about clean cars/trucks with clean windows and all lights working even on the trailers as they should , We live in the country and for good reason .if a strange truck comes up our road I'll know about it before they ever get close to our property , Good neighbors ,Good fences , and believing in Kharma seldom brings bad results ...What comes around ,goes around and around here local justice doesn't involve law enforcement !


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

DEKE01, I was thinking of the series _Person of Interest_ when I read your post. Just didn't have time to say something.

As for permission to record, it's my car. I'll record what goes on in it if I want. 

Ds is supposed to check newegg.com for a dash cam for me.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

DEKE01 said:


> I don't ask that people laugh at my lame jokes, but can someone at least acknowledge they get the reference?


I got it right away...just didn't post in this thread because I was seriously disappointed in another member's post and didn't want to say anything I would regret. Now that I've come to terms with the fact that some of us here on this board will probably be chomping at the bit to join the ranks of brownshirts, I can acknowledge your humor....



DEKE01 said:


> I have an idea and it just occurred to me and no one has ever had this idea before. Let's create a police force where a highly skilled *minority report*, find, and arrest criminals BEFORE they commit their crime. It would work great unless a member of this department wanted to commit a murder.


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