# Cost effectiveness - pole barn shell for super insulated home?



## JWK

Hey All, I've read a lot on this board (and others about the pros and cons of starting a self built home with a pole barn shell. What I haven't found so far is any info regarding the start of a super insulated home with a pole barn shell.

Our general idea is to use a pole barn shell, then build the inside stud walls with 2x4s. The only real departure from a "regular" super insulated structure would be the insulating of the outside walls. I don't know off hand what there is for any nominal insulation of this type of wall.

I just thought it might be more cost effective to use the pole barn as the outside walls. From what I've read, people that are against pole barn structures from a cost viewpoint state that by the time you do what's necessary to finish a pole barn, it costs as much if not more than a stud frame structure. Since you have to build two walls for a super insulated home anyway, I thought starting with the pole barn shell might save time and money.

Thoughts?


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## Bearfootfarm

I think you'd be better off to just use SIP's instead of trying to do the pole barn thing


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_insulated_panel
> 
> *Structural insulated panels* (or _structural insulating panels_), SIPs, are a composite building material. They consist of an insulating layer of rigid polymer foam sandwiched between two layers of structural board. The board can be sheet metal, plywood, cement or oriented strand board (OSB) and the foam either expanded polystyrene foam (EPS), extruded polystyrene foam (XPS) or polyurethane foam.
> SIPs share the same structural properties as an I-beam or I-column. The rigid insulation core of the SIP acts as a web, while the OSB sheathing exhibits the same properties as the flanges. SIPs combine several components of conventional building, such as studs and joists, insulation, vapor barrier and air barrier. They can be used for many different applications, such as exterior wall, roof, floor and foundation systems.


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## machinistmike

the farm I deer hunt on has a house in a pole barn. We have insulated the walls with normal r-13 2x4 depth insulation. It is about 10-15 degrees cooler inside than it is outside on the hottest of summer days and once you get the wood stove going in the winter, it holds the heat in very well. I will be doing this same thing with a pole barn when I am financially able too.


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## jwal10

What will you use for a floor? Will you use on post trusses or rafters every 2'? There are more than walls to a super insulated home. Managing drafts and moisture are not cheap in pole type construction. Why 2 walls? 1 6" or 8" wall is cheaper, manage the transfer of heat from the inside out and moisture from outside in, walls, floor and ceiling. Bat type insulation in the walls and floors and loose in the ceiling is still cheapest....James


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## gobug

My thought would be to build a large pole barn structure with multiple small structures inside. The small structures would be the living spaces. These would be heavily insulated, but without siding or roofing (the pole barn would provide those). The maintenance things, like electrical controls, furnace, air controls, plumbing etc would be outside the small structures, but inside the pole barn. There would be parking space for a few vehicles, and storage space. Just a thought.
gary


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## dirtman

jwal10 said:


> What will you use for a floor? Will you use on post trusses or rafters every 2'? There are more than walls to a super insulated home. Managing drafts and moisture are not cheap in pole type construction. Why 2 walls? 1 6" or 8" wall is cheaper, manage the transfer of heat from the inside out and moisture from outside in, walls, floor and ceiling. Bat type insulation in the walls and floors and loose in the ceiling is still cheapest....James


Though I am not a fan of the double wall system, the reason you do it is because each stud in the wall represents about an R-1 If you took all the studs and pushed them together you would have about 9 feet of R-1 wall on a 1200 sq ft house. The thing I don't like about the super insulated system as there is no thermal mass. Same with SIP's. If you want energy efficiency and cost is not a major factor then Insulated concrete forms perform much better.


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## cnsilver

I have thought that having a pole barn built would be a good way to go as well!! Does anyone know if a basement/ foundation could be possibly used underneath?


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## Bearfootfarm

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the cost advantage/savings over just building super thick walls on the house.

It seems to me you'd lose money by having to build two roofing systems, not to mention the aggravation of trying to build one inside the other

Then there's the issue of extra doors and windows unless you don't plan on having windows at all


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## gobug

What I was thinking is that there are many more things one has to have in addition to a structure to live in, especially on a homestead. I was imagining a large structure which could contain as many things as feasible. The structures inside this large structure would not require the same roofing and siding, and the large exterior structure would not require the same degree of insulation, electricity, heat and water.

The cost for a large steel structure, like a warehouse, is small by square foot cost. I just looked and found a new 40x60 (14ft high) for $14K. This is the roof and walls and one 16w 11h OH door. The same site has a new 60x100 in IN for $29K.

6000 sq ft is enough for a large living space and many other uses, like a aquaponics set-up, animal habitat, etc.


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## speedfunk

I think your idea has possibities. 

You could infill the exsisting pole structure with 2" rigid foam. First put a housewrap against outside wall to make it fairly air tight. Then put a couple layers of 2" thick rigid foam against the housewrap. Use furring strips (3/4"x3" x whatever length) to hold insulation against exterior wall. This would provide a surface to mount whatever interior you wish (drywall/T+G Pine). Electric wires could be then run in that 3/4" gap and surface mount outlets. You would not even need to frame interior walls with 2x4's. If you wanted to still use 2x4's to give you spots for recessed electric outlets and plumbing you could still do that. Just frame 2x4 wall against the insulation , effectively squishing it against outside wall. You could then run electric like normal but have great benefits of less studs creating thermal shortcuts around your insulation. The exterior walls would have to be wood for this to work very good I think though. This offers much better thermal properites for heat retention then tin.

Couple this with a slab (maybe radient pex to allow future solar hot water circulation systems.

I think its a great idea. Allthough


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## R H Clark

I've thought of using a modified pole barn type structure for my build as well.I would not use two walls as I see that as only extra expense.The only real advantage in my plan is that I would be building under a roof.I would have the extra time from the elements to build it myself to save on labor costs and could complete it as money allowed as long as the outside was finished as I go.

In my plan I start on a slab and use treated 6X6 posts every 12' to support a roof just like a large car port.Then I come back and put the 2x6 walls between the posts.It would cost a little more initially but I would make up for it on labor costs doing the work myself.


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## gobug

cnsilver - structurally, a basement should be fine; however, if the pole barn is big, the extra cost for a big basement would be a question. If the basement is not part of the structural support system for the pole barn and is not as big as the pole barn, there should be no problem. In fact, you could have several basements and maybe a tunnel to a root cellar.


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## NorthernMich

one way-ICF

doing now myself, NO regrets


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