# Your opinion on this behavior please, what would you do?



## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Sorry this is long but could really use different point of view as I'm in the middle of it..

My horses stay on the neighbors property as they have several empty acres and like having the pretty horses out there and I get free pasture. 

Ok, most of y'all have seen my horse Zip. He is a stud. He has only ever had the one testicle and so I was hoping to see it show up. When a vet was out here when Zip was like 2.5 he did check Zip and said he though he could feel the other testicle and it would probably come down when he was sedated. Zip just never been a problem and I hadn't got him gelded. Well he came up on 5 yrs old this spring and started acting stupid so I called the vet and we got him out here to get him gelded. Nope, one testicle. We owuld have to take him on a 4 hour round trip, stay overnight and pay $350 minimum for cryptorchid surgery. The vet also said the latest he'd seen a horse have the second testicle come down was 5, which is Zip's age. So I had a little hope there. Zip calmed down and so I decided I would do it this fall/winter. It's been a real hardship to try and get worked out, with several factors having to come together, someone to pull the trailer, money and me being able to be gone two days which is really the worst part as I have dairy animals. But definitely going to have it done before the next spring rolled around and he turned stupid again (just studdy and proud, would rear some when I asked things of him). 

Well a month or two ago the neighbor called and Zip had bit her. I didn't realize she was petting the horses through the fence. She reached up to pet Zip on the nose and he came forward, grabbed her arm and pulled her into the fence, tearing her skin back on her forearm. Obviously I felt horrible, he had never done anything like this but he has been out on pasture without getting worked much at all for a few years. I just handle him some to trim his feet and that's about it. We usually go over our groundwork before I trim to make sure he's in the right state of mind. He is generally proud (arching his neck, quite beautiful really) but does what I ask. But he has never come close to hurting me- and I push him, make him move fast, change directions etc. I push his buttons a little before I get under him to trim him. I've handled this horse for 5 years since he was a colt and he's never hurt me (well kicked me once as a baby but I was being stupid, and a few little colt nips around that time). 

So I asked if she wanted me to bring him to my place and she said it would be alright for him to stay here until we got him gelded. I also said I really can't guarantee what the animals will do when I'm not around and it would be best if no one was around them. Tried to gently go over how they are big animals and can kill you when they are just playing much less a temperamental stud. That's just the nature of horses. 

We've had bad weather and winter is always hard financially, so I decided I would bring him home instead of having it weighing on my mind. I had hay in our round pen for the cattle, so yesterday I was out there fixing up a place with electric fence to put the hay in so I could put Zip in the round pen (can't put him in the open field anymore with cattle and my goats). I planned on getting him over here this week and then I could have him in the 6 ft pen and deal with him on my own schedule. I have just been so overwhelmed lately. 

Well we get a call today and Zip got out while her husband (the UNinjured party) was working on a gate (he kept a wire across the gate but accidentally left it down for a minute to get some tools and Zip spied it apparently. So the was standing at the driveway with his arms out to block the horse while the other neighbor that happened by closed the gate ( or something like that, but the neighbor was blocking Zip- who was no doubt uber excited about being out) from going down the drive way. I guess y'all know what happened. He said Zip was standing there looking at him, just standing there. Then suddenly Zip grabbed him on the shoulder/chest area, pulled him to the ground while kind of simultaneously running over the top of him (thank God he didn't step on him) and went on over him, just ran over the length of the neighbor and on down the driveway. I WISH he had just called me but he wanted to secure him first so he couldn't get down the road, and then call me.

So basically Zip was standing there considering if he could "take" him I guess and decided he sure could and then did. 

I went over and caught Zip and brought him over here and just put him in the round pen with the hay. He acts ok with me, but honestly I'm nervous because this behavior surprises me (not being there to see it ya know) and it makes me feel like I don't know him, but when I'm around him a while he seems like his normal self. 

We looked at the neighbors injury (and it wasn't hurting) and it was a bruise and very superficial scratches (he had a coat on so that helped). No biggie. Well he went out and started picking up the tools and such and that thing swelled up like a soccer ball in about an hour. He went the emergency room tonight. 
*
My questions is, if this was your horse, would you think it was within normal range of horse behavior in his situation (intact, not being worked with regularly, excited), or would you put this horse down?*

I feel like a big pile of manure.  I really like these people and they are so nice and I feel like I've beat them both up! BTW, the wife is doing well almost totally healed up, just heard the husband's injury has swollen double again but the CAT scan looked good so he's coming home tonight.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Sorry about the luck.

No, I wouldn't think to put the horse down. His behavior is consistant with his situation. You are aware of the problem, little work and a stallion, you just need to address those.

Gelding may solve much of the problem but it may not. I don't know your experience level but feel he may need someone with a good amount of experience to spend some time with.

The best time to start working with him is right after gelding. He will need some light walking daily. Hand walk him for a little while and since he will not be to spry you can consentrate on his biting.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Put the horse down, seriously, as painful as this would be it is better than having someone end up dead.

A couple of years ago someone I know put her favorite, very high $$$$ imported Icelandic Horse down. He attacked a worker at her barn and put her in the hospital. The woman was just sweeping in front of his stall, not bothering him at all.
The Stallion had always protected his owner, was a wonderful horse to her. But tended to get snippy to anyone else... and that one day...he crossed the line.
The owner had him put down with in hours.

I figure that this stallion thought the owner was part of his band, which makes those kinds of horses very dangerous.

Have worked with many stallions over the years, young and older, none of them had a mean bone in their body. Always kept an eye on stallions but never once did they put a hoof out of step.

What your Stallion did, is not normal in any way. 
What if a child walks into his pasture, do you want to take that chance?


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## susieM (Apr 23, 2006)

eat him


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Being a stud does not in any way explain or excuse this. Testosterone does contribute to stupid and bold, but not to the degree that you should just "expect" this sort of behavior from a horse just because he's fully male.
The only thing you can blame on being stud is that when a stud does get away with being aggressive, they are far, far more likely to double the aggression _instantly_.

Here are my Big Red Flags.
In the first instance, he was on the opposite side of a fence. Not cornered, not threatened. He was offered attention and _chose_ to respond with violent aggression. He could have pinned his ears, walked away, flat out ignored - but he attacked instead.

In the second instance, while it is a fact that he was excited, there were again any number of things he might have done. I don't think I need to tell you that most horses would have ducked their heads and dashed past, perhaps after an excited circle or two. A very excited, "hot" horse may have reared and struck out, trying to drive the person out of their flight path. A very dominant one would have given a shoulder knock as he charged past. 
Once again, Zip attacked. He didn't want to go around, he thought about it and then went _through_. He had choices and that is what he chose.

So now, knowing that he will _choose_ to act and react with aggressive violence, can you keep others safe from him if you decide to try to retrain? Is that a responsibility you want to take, fully knowing the consequences? If they wanted, the neighbors could make you liable for the medical bill. If there is another incident - this horse has a known history, no judge in the world is going to accept "I was planning on gelding him and working with him more.." at best you will lose everything you have.

At worst, someone is killed. 
That's a hard thing to live with. That someone lost their precious life, their one and only life, because of a decision you made. That every single day someone will have to wake up and face _again_ that they will never see their precious one again, never touch them or speak to them.

Can you put him in a situation where you can guarantee that won't happen while you decide to see if you can train it out? A month or two ago you thought this was perhaps a one time fluke. Now you know it isn't.

I actually have a degree in this. Working degree, the classroom was a converted tack room on the barn. First day, instructor walked in and said "The most important thing you need to know about working with horses is that it's not _if_ you're going to get hurt. It's when and how bad."
During the 2 years I studied there, there were several broken arms and folks needing stitches. Broken fingers and toes don't count. But there were 2 cases that stood out, the one who got both thighs broken at once and the one who needed 7 reconstructive surgeries on her face.
How bad are you willing to get hurt and at what point is it enough?
Grab a pencil and paper, answer all the above questions and it should help with your decision.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

I may not have any right to answer this question, as I neither own nor train horses. But I'm going to give you my answer as someone who does have other livestock.

If I had a ram that seemed to respect me, but actively went after other people, I would send him to freezer camp. 

If I had a rooster that attacked people without provocation, I would send him to freezer camp.

I know someone who just got a guinea hog boar (as a package deal with a couple sows), and the boar has attacked her in just the short time she's had him and makes threatening displays every time she walks past his pen. Guinea hogs are supposed to be docile. This one's a bad one and has a date with the butcher.

We don't eat horses in the U.S., at least not as rule. We see them as pets and so we agonize over decisions like this (not saying such decisions should be made lightly). But let's say you had a dog that attacked other people for no good reason, what would you do with the dog? This stallion wasn't provoked, yet he attacked two different people on separate occasions, and he could easily kill someone. 

I'm sorry you have to deal with a situation like this.


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## RLStewart (Sep 10, 2006)

Well you do have to keep in mind that OP did not SEE what happened. Hearing about it secondhand by non-horse people can make it sound much worse than it actually was. I would geld him and work with him and go from there. I personally would have had him gelded much sooner at whatever cost if I could not work with him on a regular basis. Young studs left to their own devices tend to get very cocky!


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

time said:


> No, I wouldn't think to put the horse down. His behavior is consistant with his situation.


I'm going to come down on this side of the question, but then I started out working with unhandled range colts ... and occasionally spoiled colts which is even worse ... so I do not see his behavior as being abnormal. Dangerous, yes, if not controlled, but not abnormal.

The hormones and mentality of a stallion is different from that of a gelding or mare and they must be managed differently. A stallion is not an animal that should be handled by anyone who is not aware of what stallion behavior can be and the combination of lack of consistent training/work and uninformed management would seem to me to be the issue here.

If you have the experience level to manage him, I would get him gelded and immediately start working him ... ideally two short sessions daily ... and I would lunge (walk/trot) rather than handwalking him. On a lunge you've got some distance and can watch his body language (and you should carry a whip) so you can curtail any thought of aggressive behavior. If you are handwalking, you are too close and he can grab you before you can react.

If you are apprehensive with him and do not feel comfortable working him, the best option may be geld him and let him go to someone who is not tentative with him and will be able to discourage any behaviors that may be a problem ... or put him down.

Ungelded, he will continue to be a problem. Gelded and worked consistently and correctly, he will undoubtedly be a useful horse. Whether you have the experience to do it, is something you will have to decide.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

First, I'm sorry you are in this situation.

The situation you describe is not normal behavior for a handled 5 year old even if you include testosterone. Neither incident is a "flight or fight" response, and it can't be easily explained. 

I'd have him gelded as soon as possible, wait for the testosterone to leave his system, and decide based on his behavior what to do next. The gelding might not have the desired effect, but it should at least help.

How is he doing at home with you? Have you noticed any aggressive behavior? Has he been aggressive with other horses, or just the people?


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

No, I don't think it was fight for flight. I think it was more along the lines of territorial, or defending his own space against a "lesser" horse, with the first incident and the second was just a thing of someone being in his way. Best I can figure anyway. The first incident, she was wearing a coat so I thought (because Zip has a thing about coats he likes to play with mine if I take it off and it's within his reach, and has tried to mouth my coat when I've been wearing one around him) that he may have just been trying to steal her coat and grabbed her arm in his rush. Now that this happened, I'm thinking differently.

He has been a problem with the other horses only lately. Which is something I was thinking about this morning. 

Last spring I brought my gelding Doc (who Zip basically grew up with, I got Doc when Zip was a yearling- Doc was 2) to my house for the summer so I could ride him (ha). I put Zip in with our colt (long yearling) at the same time. They ran and ran and Zip tried to see if he could breed him but eventually seemed to be pretty good buddies. After the summer when the pasture was fading, I took Doc back over there. I put him in with Zip and colt. Zip was just mean to him. Doc had always been the dominant one before, but that changed. They have acres and acres over there (it's 160 acres, though mostly wooded) and Doc ended up with bites all over him. Doc would be 100 yds away and Zip would turn and give him the look and Doc would turn away from them (Doc wanted to come see me). So I brought Doc back home and then later brought Doc back to the neighbors, putting him in the other pasture separate from Zip and the colt. 

Here just lately I've noticed Zip is even kind of hard on that colt. He has a few bites.

When Zip was younger, he was a very quiet, even dull plod of a horse. His goal was to stand there and be lazy. He was gentle and I led him around by his jaw with my hand only. In fact my dad's cousin, who's had horses I think all his life, commented on his gentle nature back then. It's only been maybe the last couple years or less that he has turned hot. I just wonder how much agitation and frustration he has going on as there are no mares for him. That's the only thing holding me back- that he has not always been like this. Sure, he was liable to take advantage of a nervous person which I know a lot of horses do. When I first got him (he was my first horse), and he was a little weanling and didn't know what I was doing and was nervous (quit laughing) , he would rear when I would go to put him back in his pen after he was out in the pasture for a while. He just didn't want to go. As SOON as I decided I was going to whack him the next time he did it, he just didn't do it again. Didn't even have to whack him, he just knew I had an answer. He is the horse that taught me to be bold and a leader with horses. And after that, he was just a lazy boy. I spent hours and hours working him, lunging, leading, picking up feet, bathing, sending and loading, trotting in hand, moving forequarters, hindquarters, backing, flexing, sidepassing, wearing a bridle and saddle etc. Worked with him every day for a long time back when he was young. But once I got Doc who wasn't much different than a wild mustang in nature, I mostly stopped working Zip. Just here and there. Doc was then the challenge and Zip did as he pleased for a long time. 

I don't have any problem working with him. He knows I won't take an ounce of anything off of him. I do always have a stick or whip when I'm working with him. 

I've got a lot of thinking to do, but I'm thinking about keeping him up here in my round pen, gelding him and working him and seeing if it changes him or not. The first test would be seeing if his studdiness dissolves and if he becomes more lazy again. The second test would be to put Doc in with him and see if they are able to get along. Doc was always dominant before, if he becomes dominant again and Zip doesn't bite him I would feel Zip has changed. At that point, I could send him to a trainer so he could be worked by other people than myself and get experience with other people being the boss and get their opinion on him. But even if he made it to that point I don't think I would ever take him back to the neighbors. 

Or put him down.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Oh and he has been fine here. When I caught him, it was in their long driveway and I backed him down the driveway, fast, part of the way (he doesn't like backing so it's a good test of his mood) and did half circles, lunging him the rest of the way and he acted normal. I sat in the back of the truck and we trotted him down the road to our house. There are mares on the way which he could smell and he neighed at them but didn't try and get away or anything. I then took him and put him in the round pen and he's just standing out there half asleep right now. He's not been racing around or acting hot or anything.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

Spend the money and get him gelded.


Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

I also do not think the behaviors/incidents are beyond the realm of normal for THIS horse in THIS circumstance.

He has been free to do as he pleases and develop "ideas" 24 hours a day.

GELD HIM and then you must commit in your own mind to be a HARD handler for awhile. Not cruel, not unjust, but an absolute stickler for manners and be willing to back it up with swift, hard consequenses EVERY TIME.

If you just geld him and then put him right back out to his "free and easy" lifestyle, he may retain the over-the-top territorial and confrontational tendencies....


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

If you are going to try to rehab him, get insurance, just in case.
That way you don't loose your house if he goes after someone again.

And like Jill said, he may never loose that level of aggressive behavior with other people.
Stay safe!


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Not an answer to what to do in this specific situation, but several 'life experiences' that may give you some guidelines. These are my experiences with stallions that were gelded, over 40 some years.

1] Two year old stallion that was hand raised by someone that thought a baby colt rearing and pawing was 'cute' ... until he got to be a yearling. It was a week before I could get the vet out to geld and although I worked with him, I had to halter him over the corral fence and run the rope out to the snubbing post just outside the corral gate before I opened the gate. He would charge and rear/strike, also try to bite. I carried a 'serious' whip and after the first two days I established enough respect I could lunge him. He was gelded, I started working him again the next day and in two weeks he was a well behaved young gelding that never gave me a problem again.

2] QH 2 year old, always a bit 'mouthy' and inclined to nip, spring of his 2 year old year got pushy and would 'accidentally' bump you with his shoulder when he was being led. Again, gelding did the trick and in a couple of weeks he wouldn't think of it.

3] Warmblood/TB cross 3 year old I was keeping to evaluate as a stallion prospect. He wasn't laid back as a 2 year old, but was manageable, just something I would have described as tight-wound. The spring of his 3 year old year the testosterone kicked in big time and it was getting difficult to handle him even though he was worked consistently. Very distractable, he would focus on any visible horse, suddenly had no respect, very likely to pull away or walk over you and I'm sure if he were loose and you were between him and an open gate or another horse, he'd have gone right over you. He was gelded and while he was always high energy and distractable, he was much more manageable.

4] A 6 year old Connemara stallion, who is still a stallion, ground worked consistently, very manageable and mannerly though a little pushy at times breeding. He had been mouthy as a weanling and yearling but we'd always focused on this so by his 6 year old year he was not a nipper/biter. Sent him to a trainer to start under saddle, strict instructions to never hand feed. He came back 8 months later a confirmed biter, when you weren't looking. Not specifically aggressive, more as if he saw it as some kind of game ... bite when you weren't looking and then jump back so you couldn't hit him. I'm positive that he was handfed at the trainer's stable, by someone who then started swatting at him when he'd try to nip and bored, he probably hooked into it as a game. DH and I set him up so we could really 'get' him ... DH got him with the pitchfork handle and I got him with a metal corral panel pin ... both times just as he reached and hard enough to have him backing off shaking his head. He never tried it again ... but he could just as easily have been a serious aggression biter eventually if he'd continued in the training barn without serious/severe correction.

Gelding does put a stop to the production of testosterone that triggers/ drives stallion behavior. Training establishes the respect and good manners needed for a useful gelding.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Sharon,
Typical young stallion behavior in your animals but if I read your info correctly, not one of them attacked people, twice?
Boys do tend to be mouthy.
Glad I have just worked Andy, Morgan and Arab stallions.... been around a number of Icelandic's Stallions but did not work them.

Just like with aggressive Rams, dogs, what ever, some times they just can't be rehabbed, even when you geld/wether...etc.. them. 

The rescue mare I took in, would happily knock you over, Drag you when you were trying to lead her, go over the top of a person, if she wanted to be fed or didn't want to do something. 
She was just all around allowed to do any thing she wanted to people and she turned into a giant bully. But she never tried to bite, nor would she try to attack people just standing around.
After two years of retraining and having a good temperament to start with, she is a wonderful horse. She also knows if she acts up, she gets in trouble. 
She rarely forgets her manners with me any more.
She will however try to pin her ears back at other people, but that is the extent of it.
Would she revert back or at least try to be a bully again with other people, most likely.
Once they learn a bad behavior is really hard to get rid of it. Its there.. waiting. 


I feel for you SG. Keeping my fingers crossed that gelding him, will work!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

bergere said:


> Typical young stallion behavior in your animals but if I read your info correctly, not one of them attacked people, twice?


It's the unprovoked attacks that worry me too. That's not just young stallion being stupid behavior.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

Ask the neighbors if they want you to put him down. If they truly feel they were being "attacked," they'll probably say yes. If he was just being a butt, they'll know and probably say no. It may give you an indication of what really happened.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

If you decide to keep him, get him gelded ASAP. One aspect that hasn't been mentioned I keep thinking about is from my experience as a dog breeder and groomer of more than 30 years. I had a grooming customer with a small dog that had a retained testicle. He was 2-3 years old. He had all sorts of freaky behavioral issues. I recommended they get him neutered. The retained testicle was abnormal and the vet felt putting out unusual hormones (sorry I don't remember the details exactly, it was a long time ago). I guess in dogs retained testicles can go cancerous too. Their dog changed into a great pet by the next time I saw him for grooming. 

It may be that he has some health/hormone issue beyond a normal 5 yr old stud because of that retained testicle. However, he has unfortunately learned he can run over people and attack them and that is an extremely dangerous situation. 

Also, don't beat yourself up over this, it's entirely unprofitable for you or the horse or your neighbors. You did what you thought best without malice. Now you need to regroup and just go forward. You will have to decide whether the risk is worth it to you to keep him or not. In my opinion, and I'm not the most expert horseman here, if you keep him, get him gelded. 

When I bred dogs, I didn't tolerate bad temperament at all. I put down a gorgeous and thoroughly trained show/hunting dog once because he snapped at my young son. My son provoked him too, but I knew that I couldn't consider this dog "safe" and that if I had problems with him, I couldn't just fix him and rehome him either. I sure wasn't going to breed him. It was really hard, I'd bred him and raised him from a pup, but I'd noticed signs of instability in him (that is one reason he was highly trained) and felt if all the training and work I'd done wasn't enough, he had to go. 

You may say that you haven't trained this horse so you want to give him a chance. Up to you, just be really careful until you are sure that training and gelding has done the job. We don't want to hear that you've been badly injured. A horse is more dangerous than a 60 lb dog. 

Those are just my thoughts on reading this.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I find this behavior quite common in retired show cattle and even more so in bulls. They get just enough handling and socialization to realize they don't have to respect humans because they're faster and more powerful so they often take a disrespectful approach to people (menacing behavior, crowding personal space, shoving, charging, etc.).

I don't know if Zip needs to be put down but you do have to take a long hard look at the situation and decide if you have the time and finances to turn this around. 

When you had one horse, you were doing well and making progress, to the extent that I really felt you were going to be the exception to the green horse green rider rule. You brought in a second and now a third. Is there a chance that you just don't have enough time for three? Do you have the time now to make sure that he gets the training he needs to develop the manners expected of a horse his age and if you're planning on sending him out for training, is that something that is financially feasable? 

He currently has two strikes against him which means you have to look at best and worst case scenarios. Best case scenario would be that with gelding and very consistent training should turn things around but only you can decide what would be the deal breaker/last straw because this really can't go on or escalate. That's really a personal decision but it has to be firm because there does come a point where we have to realize that the situation is unworkable or too dangerous.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

bergere said:


> Typical young stallion behavior in your animals but if I read your info correctly, not one of them attacked people, twice?


The Connemara stallion would grab/yank if he could get his teeth in your shirt (or arm) when he came back. I suspect that would not sound a lot different in telling than what was described in the OP stallion's first instance.

The grab, yank, runover is a little more difficult to evaluate, but the very mare-focused 3 year old 'might' have grabbed someone that was standing in a gate and barring his way and would definitely have run over someone.

AND the only stallion that has ever actually bit me, unprovoked, hard was my very well mannered, well trained and thoroughly 'civilized' dressage stallion, Weltstern. I was trying to catch a little mule in the next corral that he absolutely hated with a passion. I got close enough to the fence for me to reach me ... the mule was not close ... and he grabbed me between the shoulder blades, picked me up and tossed me. Fortunately, it was early spring in Montana and besides the usual clothing I also had a heavy sweatshirt and a heavy work-weight Levi jacket on. Wonderful dark black and blue equine dental impression right between my shoulder blades, no missing skin or flesh. Not a 'nip' ... a full-of-frustration full-mouth grab and toss.

Which is only to show that the best mannered and best trained stallion can 'react' unexpectedly in certain situations. He absolutely never put his teeth on me or anyone else at any other time that I know of all of the years I owned him. But I was in territory he considered 'his' to some extent and he'd have killed that mule if he could have gotten to him. Only animal I ever saw him react to aggressively.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

It is not uncommon for stallions to show aggression, but at the same time I have met plenty well behaved sane stallions to know that I would never put up with an aggressive one.

I remember one time walking through a show barn(it always seems to be I find the crazies in the show barn) and hearing horror stories of stallions reaching over stall doors and taking "chunks" out of young women's arms and breasts. But yet, here I was the same stallion staring at me through bars. Another time, I was at another show stable looking at purchasing a boarders gelding. We hear the thundering of hooves and turned around to see a grey stallion in a full on charge from a 1/4 MILE away, slide into the fence, ears pinned and teeth bared. Stable hand shrugged and simply suggested staying away from the fence(which was already double fenced) and excused the horse's behavior as "it's breeding season". 

On the other hand I've met stallions that are consistantly ridden alongside mares and even tied next to them overnight(weekend trailriding) and still not make a sound or make any aggressive(ornery, cocky, studdy, etc) gesture ever. People don't believe they are stallions and often bend over to take a look to see if the truth was being told.

Whatever you decide do NOT take the horse back to your neighbors. I honestly wouldn't even take him back after he was gelded. Keep him home until he is gelded, then keep him home or board him at an experienced facility.

He has shown aggression, whether or not it was testerone fueled or not. He has hurt people and no horse is worth that. It wasn't an accident it was an attack. 

If you cannot keep the horse at your own place, gelded or not, and cannot guarantee that he will be safely kept from other people, then I believe he needs to be euthanized. It's tough to say, but he could have *killed* that man with the grab, pull, and runover. I think I would have a slightly different take if he kicked the man and fled, but the attack was an offensive attack and not defensive. That is what worries me.

Having typed the post and thought it out, I would probably euthanize him(if he were mine in my situation). Simply because I may not always be able to work him regularly, I definitely can't guarantee people won't be in the pasture or reaching over the fence, and I would always be stressed he was going to attack again. He's attacked(not defended) twice. Even if you could keep him on your own property, could you keep him for the rest of his life? Would there be 'any' possibility of other people besides you dealing with him?(the horse getting loose or people coming over to visit). 

I've dealt with young colts and a few older stallions. Worked them in the round pen making them move and turn. The worst behavior I get is ear pinning, the occasional mock intimidation(where they cut the ring tight and trespass on 'your' space, and I had a 3 year old colt run up on the side of the corral as though he was contemplating knocking it down(I think is what he was trying to do) or thinking about going over. Never had a horse(stallions included) bite or come straight at me.

The closest thing I've had to an aggressive horse is the 8 year old gelding "Casper" in the backyard right now. That being said he never attacked someone. He was food pushy. When you would walk into the pasture to feed grain he would hustle you. Ears penned, head up, doing his little jig, rushing the other horses away. One day he rushed me like he does the other horses, but stopped short and started circling and posturing(ear back, head up, tail swishing). Picked up the feed and walked right back out. I had to problem solve with him because he was a great horse otherwise, just came from a previously easier intimidated owner, but he knew what a whip was and was always a perfect angel when there was one around. I'm not one to carry a whip with me every time I want to go out in the pasture. So I problem solved, went in the house and got the dog training shock collar. Strapped it to his neck with hay string(collar would fit LOL) and proceeded to feed. He came at me again in his normal pushy 'hurry up and feed demeanor' and I calmly told him to "back" (a command he previously knew) and when he continued forward I zapped him on the highest setting(just remember dog collar on a horse, big size difference). Casper jumped like he was stung by a bee. Stopped, thought about it, and remembered I had grain and started with the pushiness. Repeated the process, "back", nope, ZAP. This time he stood, pawed the ground, and started grinding his teeth and licking his lips. Started for me again, I stated "back" you better believed the horse stopped dead in his tracks and when I advanced at him and told him to 'back' he about trotted backwards. He made sure to stay out of my space and I fed him. Last time I had issues with it. Had a young horse lover get mad that I had done it stating I was making him 'head shy', all I had to say is, if he were to actually attack someone over food it would have been a bullet and not a minor shock from a dog collar.

It's a sad situation either way, and I'm glad that you are looking at is responsively, though sorry you are having to deal with it.

So I guess my suggestions would be:

Geld him, train him and keep him at home.

Geld him, and rehome him to someone who can train and work him.

Or euth him. I think in the end the decision really comes down to what you as the owner can realistically provide the horse(time, training and working and space to keep him at home) and what will allow you to sleep at night(would you be always fearful of another owner abusing or neglecting him or him hurting someone else?).


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## Countrygrl3 (Nov 19, 2004)

SG, sounds like a rough go of things. If you can afford gelding him thats what i would go for. Give it a chance to see if it helps. But NEVER at the risk of your life or someone elses. Be safe and trust your instincts. 

Sue


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

wolffeathers said:


> If you cannot keep the horse at your own place, gelded or not, and cannot guarantee that he will be safely kept from other people, then I believe he needs to be euthanized. It's tough to say, but he could have *killed* that man with the grab, pull, and runover. I think I would have a slightly different take if he kicked the man and fled, but the attack was an offensive attack and not defensive. That is what worries me.


I agree with this, the neighbor's place is not the place for him to be.

As for kicking rather than biting/grabbing ... stallions are much less likely to kick than strike/bite ... seems to be a more common behavior for them. I've found mares much more likely to kick, very rarely see stallions kick except when "kicking out" when teasing mares. 

One of the first things my grandfather told me was to watch out for the back end of a mare and the front end of a stallion.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

SFM in KY said:


> One of the first things my grandfather told me was to watch out for the back end of a mare and the front end of a stallion.


Never thought about it before but this is true. 

It just bothers me that this was an attack and not a defensive move. The times I have seen horses do the grab, pull, and runover was with a dog that they were really trying to put a hurting on/kill(dog was just standing there not harrassing the horses). Another case was the gate was left open and their 'pet' gelding of 12 years ran out, targeted their lhaso apso(little fluffy dog) puppy, bit it and then proceeded to stomp it to death. Horse was gone by the next day(rehomed in this case).


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

wolffeathers said:


> Never thought about it before but this is true.
> 
> It just bothers me that this was an attack and not a defensive move. The times I have seen horses do the grab, pull, and runover was with a dog that they were really trying to put a hurting on/kill(dog was just standing there not harrassing the horses). Another case was the gate was left open and their 'pet' gelding of 12 years ran out, targeted their lhaso apso(little fluffy dog) puppy, bit it and then proceeded to stomp it to death. Horse was gone by the next day(rehomed in this case).


From the description (and I don't think the OP actually knows either) it's difficult to know if the grab/pull was an act of actual aggression ... bite you, throw you down, stomp you ... or a grab/toss (as happened to me with my Oldenburg stallion) to get someone/something out of his way and the runover was just a byproduct of the horse getting from point A to point B.

As for agressive behavior against dogs, I've actually seen a lot of this and consider it somewhat a throwback to instinctive protective behavior against coyotes/wolves ... predators in other words. I've had a number of mares, particularly, that you did not want to take a dog in the pasture with them, especially (not not only) when they had foals.

One of my older mare, an APHA mare bred in Montana and raised in big open country was death on dogs ... I've actually watched her 'stalk' a stray dog.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

SFM in KY said:


> From the description (and I don't think the OP actually knows either) it's difficult to know if the grab/pull was an act of actual aggression ... bite you, throw you down, stomp you ... or a grab/toss (as happened to me with my Oldenburg stallion) to get someone/something out of his way and the runover was just a byproduct of the horse getting from point A to point B.
> 
> As for agressive behavior against dogs, I've actually seen a lot of this and consider it somewhat a throwback to instinctive protective behavior against coyotes/wolves ... predators in other words. I've had a number of mares, particularly, that you did not want to take a dog in the pasture with them, especially (not not only) when they had foals.
> 
> One of my older mare, an APHA mare bred in Montana and raised in big open country was death on dogs ... I've actually watched her 'stalk' a stray dog.



I agree with you about the dogs. 

Although I can see how it may seemed so, I wasn't trying to say attacking dogs was related to attacking humans or just aggression. The first horse-dog incident I mentioned was Casper(go figure, we call him our grumpy old man), and he attacked the dog(which was standing beside me) more like he would when another animal got too close to his food bucket. It wasn't an "I'm going to kill you attack"(although it could have been). It was a "I don't like you in my pasture and going to show you I could beat you up" (If any of our horses cause drama, it's Casper LOL ).

The other, I didn't see myself, just noticed the missing horse and asked. The owners took it as an act of malice, but in the real world that spoiled to death 15 year old gelding wouldn't have seen that lhaso pup as "cute and fluffy".

I've luckily never had to experience or see an actually horse attack on people. Plenty of accidents, intimidations, and the occasional horse defending itself(somebody snatching a rank mare by the halter in a stall corner and was pawed).

It's unfortunate there wasn't a third, more experienced party on the scene when these attacks happened. Because we can't hear the side of the horse(through experienced eyes) and can only hear the side of inexperienced horse people. We only have their story, but the only concrete evidence would be the injuries. A third party would make the decision a little easier.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

wolffeathers said:


> I've luckily never had to experience or see an actually horse attack on people.


I've only had one horse that did this and it was a mare. She was a range mare I bought as an 8 year old that had never been handled and I got her to the point where I could get a halter on her and lead her but that took 30 days and I was very careful. She definitely showed signs of aggression.

Decided to sell her and had a local cowboy horse trainer come over to round pen her and get her a little more 'manageable' so I could lead her through the sale ring. About 10 or 15 minutes into the round penning the mare decided she'd had enough and turned in an charged just like a stud would have. It's a good thing he was watching and quick or she'd have had him.

He tried a couple of more times and she just was not going to have it. I made the decision right then and there and put her down. But out of dozens of horses, she's the only one I can say I've actually believed was actually acting out of aggression rather than some other form of instinct, fear or dominance behavior.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

> I've dealt with young colts and a few older stallions. Worked them in the round pen making them move and turn. The worst behavior I get is ear pinning, the occasional mock intimidation(where they cut the ring tight and trespass on 'your' space, and I had a 3 year old colt run up on the side of the corral as though he was contemplating knocking it down(I think is what he was trying to do) or thinking about going over. Never had a horse(stallions included) bite or come straight at me.


Exactly, the same with this horse. I lunged him today and he was a gentleman really. He did kick out once when I popped him on the butt. I popped him again and he didn't act out. Other than that he would try and inch forward when stopped and facing me, I wiggled the rope and he backed right up. He's backing up really well, better than I would expect with his lack of work lately. This with mares running around across the road. 



> It just bothers me that this was an attack and not a defensive move. The times I have seen horses do the grab, pull, and runover was with a dog that they were really trying to put a hurting on/kill(dog was just standing there not harrassing the horses). Another case was the gate was left open and their 'pet' gelding of 12 years ran out, targeted their lhaso apso(little fluffy dog) puppy, bit it and then proceeded to stomp it to death. Horse was gone by the next day(rehomed in this case).


I don't think he was trying to stomp the neighbor, as he managed to run the length of the nieghbor without stepping on him once. 


I really appreciate all the help and thoughts.


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## hrslvrtrailridr (Jan 9, 2007)

I don't find this behavior unusual. In fact, I suspect if you have him at your place for any length of time you will see him exhibit it yourself eventually.
Your horse as he is now is a liability and could pose some legal action against you.
Geld him asap and get some training on him.


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## Jcran (Jan 4, 2006)

My daughter takes lessons at a barn where they had a young horse who'd been gelded but was still extremely "studdy" and a real handful. He was the first horse I ever felt nervous around...I would NOT go into the pasture when he was turned out, and none of the kids were allowed around him. He was finally ultrasounded and found to have a THIRD testicle...I'd never heard of THAT before. He had surgery to remove it, and calmed down to some extent, but he still has an aggressive side that I think is a result of his aggressive interactions before surgery. Get this guy gelded ASAP and then re-assess.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

He's supposed to lose his manhood tomorrow. I hope things go well. I'm going to have to see how he loads this evening. He hasn't been in a trailer in a long time but never had much problem before. 

I just think on this constantly trying to figure it all out. I do think she was feeding them out of her hand over the fence. I wish I had thought more about it- but I never ever saw them interacting with the horses. When I was over there they were usually in the house or working on something or whatever. I did mention to them last spring that Zip was a stud and acting more studdy and to keep and eye on him. Well I mentioned to the husband, he may never have said anything or maybe I was too soft spoken. Anyway, it's just been all churning around in my mind night and day. My muscles and joints have been hurting from it. Stupid horse. 

I'm just glad the neighbor is doing ok.

Everyone talks about retraining him, and I'm going to go back through the groundwork and restart him under saddle too, but really, he doesn't act like he has a training deficit with me. A touch rusty and a little proud but not bad at all.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

southerngurl, when was the last time he was ridden or worked?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Hind sight is always 20-20.
Clearly, he should have been gelded several years ago. Just as clear, you donât have the time or desire to work him regularly. While the neighbors may have enjoyed watching your pretty horses when they were young, this monster isnât bringing much joy.
If you had asked this question 40 years ago, I might say just geld him and start working him more. But, since there are many quality, trained horses being killed every day, why put up with the out of control stud? Get rid of him, evaluate your âneedâ for extra horses and move forward.
If you are wondering where youâll get the money for the studâs surgery, where will you get the money for the neighborâs hospital bills?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

southerngurl said:


> Everyone talks about retraining him, and I'm going to go back through the groundwork and restart him under saddle too, but really, he doesn't act like he has a training deficit with me. A touch rusty and a little proud but not bad at all.


If you don't think it's a training problem, then you should put him down - because clearly there is a problem somewhere.
The only colts/stallions I've ever worked with were spoiled and sassy, sometimes to the point of being dangerous, but they still didn't do what you described. Now I know that your description was second hand through non horse people but still. 
I've never had a horse aggressively charge me without making some kind of warning, it might be very fast, but it's there. Either they lay ears back and snake their head at me or get "light on their front" and paw - even if it's only for a half a second. They don't just stand there and look and then charge teeth first. 
The only time they might stand there for a sec and then take a dive is when they are trying to squeak past me with their heads down and are very intent on not touching me at all. A totally different maneuver. 

And please don't mistake proud and aggressive. A proud horse is a _delight_ . The Spanish have a word for it, _Brio_. An aggressive horse may make some of the same gestures, arching the neck, moving with flash, but the motivation behind it is different and an aggressive horse is dangerous. 

Please be careful and don't let your guard down just because he's always been good with you. If I were you, I'd get another trainer to work with him. If he's going to try this with every one who isn't you, that's it's own kind of dangerous. And please don't turn your back on him.
Stay safe.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

I agree with gelding and see that it is scheduled for tomorrow. Good luck with that.

I didn't see this address anywhere. Is it possible that the neighbors were doing more than petting them through the fence? Is it possible that they've been messing with him and feeding him treats? I'm not excusing his behavior but perhaps they've spoiled him a bit and let him get away with behaviors you wouldn't. This could be why he behaves so well with you and not them. 

One other possibility. Are you the only person who worked with him? If so, he may look at you as someone to behave around but still be young enough and dumb enough and "boy" enough to think he could get away with not behaving around other people. If they're not horse people, they may have missed obvious signs to a horse person that he's checking to see what he's getting away with.

You are aware what happened so I'm sure you'll be careful working with him.


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## TxHorseMom (Feb 21, 2011)

haypoint said:


> Hind sight is always 20-20.
> Clearly, he should have been gelded several years ago. Just as clear, you donât have the time or desire to work him regularly. While the neighbors may have enjoyed watching your pretty horses when they were young, this monster isnât bringing much joy.
> If you had asked this question 40 years ago, I might say just geld him and start working him more. But, since there are many quality, trained horses being killed every day, why put up with the out of control stud? Get rid of him, evaluate your âneedâ for extra horses and move forward.
> If you are wondering where youâll get the money for the studâs surgery, where will you get the money for the neighborâs hospital bills?


I have to agree with haypoint and the others and say put him down. I know it's hard, but there is NO REASON for him to act this way. Well, let me rephrase that, there are reasons, but mostly I've been hearing excuses. You are risking losing EVERYTHING YOU HAVE over an animal. Your neighbors may still sue. But you have a KNOWN AGGRESSIVE horse. If he does this again it will be totally your fault. I know that sounds harsh, but it's the truth.

A couple of years ago I had a young GSD that I raised as a puppy. He jumped the fence and killed some chickens. I said to myself, well, they are prey and he was just doing what's natural, I didn't "catch" him at it, so I couldn't punish him, it wasn't really his fault. Then he got out and killed one of our barn cats. Again, dogs don't like cats. (Sound familiar? Excuses.) He was so well trained, that when I caught him with the cat in his mouth and said "Drop it!" he did. I felt bad about the cat, but I LOVED this dog and thought I will just work with him more and be sure he doesn't get out. Then one day, my adult daughter and her friend came over to ride. They brought her friends new puppy with them. We put the puppy in it's kennel in another room and went riding. My GSD was allowed run of the house. When we came back from our ride, the GSD "popped" open the bedroom door that the puppy was in, broke into the kennel and killed the puppy. I could no longer use excuses. This was NOT normal behavior. At the time, my daughter in law was pregnant with our first grandchild. What if he mistaked a baby's cry for a prey cry? What if he attacked the baby? Let me add that he had NEVER shown aggression towards humans AT ALL. But I couldn't take the chance. I even considered taking him to a breed rescue, but after talking to my vet, he said that I might still be found liable if he were to hurt someone in the future because of his KNOWN AGGRESSION. I paid for a replacement puppy for my daugher's friend, then I put him down and cried for a month. I still miss him 3 years later. But I think it was the right thing to do.

Let me add that I have experience with stallions. I have owned several and used to breed paints, so I can honestly tell you that he should not be acting that way. I think you should cut your losses and move on as best you can. Good luck.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

One thing to reiterate for you - you cannot change what has already happened and there is no profit to you or him in making yourself sick worrying over it. Now that you know you have a problem, face it honestly and go forward. Glad you are getting him gelded, but please be very careful, work him and maybe get a really good trainer to work with him. 

Another story to contrast his behavior with.... my friends back in SC were visiting another friend in Georgia. That second friend had found a very easy going stray horse and the first friend thought he might want it for his 15 yr old horse crazy daughter. They checked around, knew where he came from and took him in as a rescue. 

Turned out he was a 5 yr old stud, probably 1/2 Arab from the looks of him. They hauled him home, got him gelded and are working with a trainer in a barn. In 3 months he is well behaved and she's have a blast learning to ride on him. He was never much of a behavior issue, though he did strike out once when he first arrived in his new home. This is a colt with a good normal temperament and owners that got good professional help with him and their daughter. The sorts of things you are having problems with were never an issue and he was a neglected stray, quite possibly just turned loose in a poor area. 

We love our animals. Sometimes though we are faced with hard decisions. I'm not saying you need to put him down, your decision is up to you. However don't shy away from the fact that he is a problem horse and not "normal" for whatever reason. You will have to be careful and should get help with him. 

In any case, guilt won't help you deal with things. As one good friend always says to me, "It is what it is". Start there and go forward.


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## nduetime (Dec 15, 2005)

I think you are very lucky your neighbors are not vindicative people. I personally would not have a stud on my farm. Between my own grandchildren and the boarders there is just too much liability. 

That being said...I would not put him down either. (if I were exactly you) I would keep him on my own property exclusively, have him gelded and see what happens, putting absolutely nobody else at risk with him but myself. 

I would make certain he is in an area where there is no way no how he could escape from and I would be the only one allowed to handle/move/work him until I was satisfied he was not a danger to anybody else. 

Just my opinion. I sure pray everything works out for both you and Zip.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

It's not exactly that I don't think he doesn't have a training problem.. more that he is good with _me_ already. 

Yes, I think they were feeding him and the colt over the fence.

He is in a heavy gauge 6 ft tall round pen.

Last time I had worked with him was about 2 months ago. Then yesterday of course.


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## nduetime (Dec 15, 2005)

If that is his way (to be aggressive) you may not be able to train that out of him. Charging and attacking somebody is way off the dealbreaker scale for me. There is no fight, fight, or just plain attack.

I sure hope this goes well for you and you do not end up hurt too. He may be good for you right now but that is after you have worked him etc to get his head on right as you said earlier. 

If you really believe that he is ok with you and nobody else, I would try to get somebody over that is VERY experienced and will not put themselves at undo risk to see if this is so. It is one thing for somebody with no experience at all to be a problem for him respectwise, but way another if that person can and usually does command respect from horses and you still get a attack response.

Gosh, I sure pray this all works out for you!


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## Oregon Julie (Nov 9, 2006)

I just saw this thread for the first time today. The very first thing that came to my mind was something that someone else touched on, these folks were doing stuff (not mean or bad mind you) that they should not have been doing. I have never had a problem with a stallion that I have raised being mouthy or aggressive. One of the reasons is we have very, very strict rules of behavior from the get go and this goes both ways.

I NEVER pet a stallion below the tear bone. No stroking of noses allowed, PERIOD. They will respect my space. I do not pick at them. If they are bad they get creamed for it, then left alone. No picking. They are expected to have good manners around other horses and unless they are breeding I don't really even want to know they are stallions.

I also protect them from the people in the world who don't understand the rules. That I think is the biggest problem with this situation. People who are no doubt nice folks with good intentions most likely did all the wrong things in terms of handling a stallion. Even though he was never intended to remain that way he should have been treated like that was what he was and instead he was treated like a gelding and as many have pointed out, their minds work differently when they have those two extra bits hanging out back there.

Hope the gelding went well and that things settle down with him, I suspect they will.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I'm thinking so too Julie. 

I worked with him for about an hour today and he did real well. I went through all the paces and trimmed his feet. I found some sticky spots with moving his front end, which makes sense. He would move over a couple steps but then start trying to move forward and pushing his shoulder out towards me. Within just a few minutes we worked that out. He really remembers everything I taught him. He's shown no signs of aggression. He's much more relaxed now too and hardly even acting studdy at all.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

Did you take him to get gelded?


Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

Don't know if anyone else has mentioned this. I know he is a stallion, and has had no-one knows what interference, but....

A friend of mine had this with a mare. The horse was always a bit on the mean side, but she got worse, they had to put up signs saying that the horse was a biter in every field she was put in, she would just attack people. She was fine with her owner though.

Eventually the owner had the vet see her - after lots o ftests it turned out that she had a brain tumour

hope yours is fixed by his gelding, but it is worth keeping in mind

take care

hoggie


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

He was to be gelded this morning but we had to move it to this next tues which was the next available time.


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## TxHorseMom (Feb 21, 2011)

Sorry, but our stallions were expected to act like geldings except when breeding. No calling to girls, no "studly" behavior. You could pet, and love on my stallion. Children could pet my stallion (with supervision) I don't believe a stallion should act any different than any other horse. And believe me, they respected me. I could also ride my stallions with other horses and he knew that undersaddle he had to behave. IMO too many people excuse stallion behavior because they are stallions and have a "boys will be boys" attitude. That's going to get someone in trouble.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

TxHorseMom said:


> Sorry, but our stallions were expected to act like geldings except when breeding. No calling to girls, no "studly" behavior. You could pet, and love on my stallion. Children could pet my stallion (with supervision) I don't believe a stallion should act any different than any other horse. And believe me, they respected me. I could also ride my stallions with other horses and he knew that undersaddle he had to behave. IMO too many people excuse stallion behavior because they are stallions and have a "boys will be boys" attitude. That's going to get someone in trouble.


I think if you take time to read what I have posted, you'll see that is not the case here. I require the best behavior from this horse, more than my other horses, and he gives it. The problem came around with non-horse people interacting with him. And that's not happening again. I shouldn't have let him be in a situation where it could happen.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I hope that gelding and training works out for Zip. Good luck!!
I know you're doing the best you can.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I would give him 1 more chance as long as I could keep him in a place where I could be sure he couldn't hurt anyone else. You really don't know what happened for sure, and it is possible that the neighbors have had a lot more interaction with him than you think.
You are having him gelded and you don't seem to have trouble with him. Good luck! And keep us posted.


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

Can I ask? Is he a Quarter horse? I have seen more QH's have that one testicle problem and with it came the "I'm nuts gene". I dont want any more QH in my pasture after too many crazies. Mares who act like stallions and seem bipolar. 

The last QH allowed here was a gelding. He broke my neck, leg and ribs, among other injuries. It had the one dropped testicle problem also and we did get it taken care of. It was my sisters horse. He never changed. Just down right deadly. He purposely flipped over on me, rolled for 10 minutes. When I finally got sorta free and he realized it, he jumped up and tried to stomped me to death. We worked with him everyday. It did not matter. 

I wont allow any one elses horse here anymore, and never a QH. I swear many are inbred or something. QH lovers dont flame me, I am just stating the statistics of my own personal experiences. I know there are some good ones. 

I hope he changes.. be safe.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Were you able to get Zip gelded, Southerngurl? Have you had any problems with him while he was at your place?


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

We found a vet in Marshall that will do cryptorchids out in the field. He's an older vet with a good success rate and if he can't do it he doesn't charge for the surgery part of it. First day he could get out here is March 16th. But if you get there at 8 am they could do it any day except Thursday or the weekend- without an appointment. So we planned to take Zip down there to him where he could get to him sooner. But since Zip isn't giving me any trouble I've figured it will be a lot less stress on everyone, including him, if we just wait for the vet to come here. So we set an appointment for the 16th. 

Yea, Zip is doing real good. I just trotted him about 6 miles on our dirt road from the RTV, he got a good workout, those are hilly miles! Then I did a brief bit of groundwork and had him load in the trailer a few times and put him up. All he did was holler at the ladies as we went by. Suddenly he was much lighter on his feet as well. Awesome thing is he's going all these dirt road miles bare footed! When he was a weanling he had like no solar depth at the toe, very TB like feet. So he has come a long way in the hoof dept over the years.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

What is the advantage to have cryptorchid surgery in the field? I'm just curious, I think I'd rather have it done at a clinic.

Zip hasn't been aggressive with you at all? He definitely knows you're the alpha but to have been so aggressive with at least two other people is odd. I'm glad, but it's still odd.


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## susieM (Apr 23, 2006)

I hear excuses for his behaviour, and I also hear that you're too busy to deal with him properly.

Don't risk it.


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## moorland (Nov 18, 2010)

just found this ,hopefully the gelding will help sort it 
a freind had a gelding that had a retained testicale ,they didn't know at the time 
he was lovely to begin with kids riding pony up untill the age of 5 ,his behavour became more and more unpredicatable rather than just stallionly ,she could handle him and so could few others , at others he as angry and agressive ,towards almost everybody ,
tended to be dishonest ,would doit but nobody really enjoyed working with him 
so he went from queit to i hate you at random times ,a few small attacks ,running at people rearing ,nothing much ,
but he was a smallish pony,shetland x welsh ,so didn't do a lot of damage ,
he got out though a fence one day and attacked an old crofter almost the same descripiton as you gave ,he spent a few days in hospital ,he'd broken though the fencing ,they called the vet out ,he suggested blood tests ,they came back as having an abonormally amount of testorone,before the tests came back i was thinking of taking him but unpredctable behavour i didn't want to deal with ,

he was i'm afraid put to sleep as they said as he was 8 it might work or might not ,the op was about 500 pounds and the travelling costs to somewhere that could do it incuding the ferry was 450 pounds ,plus the costs of the hospital stay for the pony ,they do not do ops like this in the feild in the uk ,i belive 
glad to see you are getting him gelded ,and hope it works out
fingers crossed for you


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> What is the advantage to have cryptorchid surgery in the field? I'm just curious, I think I'd rather have it done at a clinic.
> 
> Zip hasn't been aggressive with you at all? He definitely knows you're the alpha but to have been so aggressive with at least two other people is odd. I'm glad, but it's still odd.


The clinic is a 4 hr round trip, through some hilly windy Ozark roads and an overnight stay. It's a huge amount of lost time and having to get someone to milk a goat and a cow and feed bottle babies not to mention the usual chores (feed dogs, goats etc). This will be so much less hassle and stress. He's an experienced vet. I'm sure there is a bit more risk of infection than in a clinic, but I guess that would make the decision on putting him down if things didn't go well. But I really don't think there will be a problem. 

I agree, I've felt it was odd from the start. That's why I asked for opinions, there was just this huge disconnect from my experiences with him and what happened when I wasn't there. I feel he was territorial and was around them enough and probably exhibited dominant behavior they didn't catch onto so that when he did actually interact with them, he did so as a herd boss.

The neighbor is doing well. He's one of these "It's just a scratch" types lol. I offered to take the other horses but they don't want us to. But of course they don't want Zip back and I wasn't going to take him back over there ever, I don't care if he has a little halo after all this.


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## nduetime (Dec 15, 2005)

southerngurl said:


> But of course they don't want Zip back and I wasn't going to take him back over there ever, I don't care if he has a little halo after all this.


That is certainly for the best. It is not unheard of for a horse to be a total jerk interacting with anyone other than his master. I have seen that before whether the horse was gelded or even a mare. I personally, think it is risky to have a horse like that around, but then I have 12 grandkids and boarders that come and go. You have a totally different situation. :cowboy:

BTW, I have assisted vets with crypto surgery in the field and have never had one come up with infections or any other problems. Like you say, a lot less stressful for you and really for the horse as well. Sedated on their own pasture, surgery done, and waking in their own area is a lot less stressful for the horse. That is just my opinion.

Good luck on everything, stay safe and I hope things work out ok for Zip. Sounds like he is certainly worth giving a chance to.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Definitely easier to have the surgery done on your farm. I'm glad your neighbor is doing welll too.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

susieM said:


> I hear excuses for his behaviour, and I also hear that you're too busy to deal with him properly.
> 
> Don't risk it.


Oh hey...you're back. Trolling must be slow elsewhere, huh?


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

nduetime said:


> That is certainly for the best. It is not unheard of for a horse to be a total jerk interacting with anyone other than his master. I have seen that before whether the horse was gelded or even a mare. I personally, think it is risky to have a horse like that around, but then I have 12 grandkids and boarders that come and go. You have a totally different situation. :cowboy:


Well, we are a multi-critter place and I don't like having an animal that I can't trust with other animals (Zip isn't good with my goats). Dogs can't kill chickens or cats, cows can't bother goats, horses can't stomp dogs etc. So I think if he does well and I may send him to a trainer to see how he does with other horse people. There is a training place near that has more than one trainer working with the horses too. Assuming he does well, I will probably sell him, taking my time to find him a really good home. It will be sad, but there's lots of sad stuff in life. Because otherwise I have to dry lot him forever and I don't like doing that, really. I think he could make a really good ranch type horse or even endurance. He's very lean and fit.


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## bluejett (May 17, 2010)

I've read through this whole thread and it sounds like you've gone through a lot, I'll be praying this all goes well.


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## nduetime (Dec 15, 2005)

southerngurl said:


> I think he could make a really good ranch type horse or even endurance. He's very lean and fit.


That is a really good idea. It may be that he really just needs a good job. I think a working ranch horse just does not have a lot of time to get into any trouble. Dry lotting for life is no way to live for a horse. I totally agree with you. Best wishes for both of you.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I'm still thinking there are issues related to the retained testicle and hope for your sake that gelding him makes some significant changes, as it did for my doggie customer. Retained testicles can easily cause health and behavior problems, I'm glad you are going to get him gelded soon.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I would keep a close eye on the horses at your neighbors. I think it's kind of odd that they want to keep them considering the problems they had. I wonder exactly what they are doing with them--If they are just standing around in the pasture, I would think they would be glad to have them gone. I wonder if they are teasing them with treats or something, not understanding what they are doing.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I don't think so. They are an older couple and good people. They have a real nice place and the horses are pretty and I think they like having something running around being pretty out there. I think they feel the problem is limited to this horse. I did talk to them about no one interacting with the horses, just call me if one gets out etc.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

what a fiasco..

personally, there is NO excuse, in my book, for his behavior...I can let my stallion stand for 5 months and while he may be alittle full of himself..he has NEVER offered to bite...he is only 3 years older then your youngster

I was bitten severely by a stallion when I was young..and it was totally unprovoked..all I did was walk by his stall, he grabbed me, picked me up, shook me and then, thankfully dropped me. I know WHY he did it, but that did not change the issue that he DID do it and there was no REASON for it.

within the year I had my uncle come and get him..my uncle knew folks..we boarded and I had a one year old child..he'd already had an altercation with another boarder(almost same circumstance as your horse did, biting and then mowing somebody down) and I did not want the liability..

I HOPE gelding him changes his attitude..if he was mine, he'd be put down..the liability to to big, in my mind.

Best of luck in this situation.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

southerngurl said:


> Assuming he does well, I will probably sell him, taking my time to find him a really good home.


Who will buy a horse who's hurt two people? Your plan sounds like a huge lawsuit just itchin' to happen.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Joshie said:


> Who will buy a horse who's hurt two people? Your plan sounds like a huge lawsuit just itchin' to happen.


Well, not to mention....what can he do? Untrained horses are a dime a dozen. Does he ride at all? 

No offense but so far what I can tell of him from this post is that he is a 5 year old cryptorchid stallion with questionable feet. That I think is unbacked, has had just enough ground work to be able to trim his feet, and has attacked two people. 

You would have a hard time giving that horse away.

Personally, I'd euthanize him rather than spend the money on the gelding.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Zip has had hundreds of hrs of training, mostly on the ground, but yes he was started under saddle before as well. Just three rides but he did well. No bucking, rearing etc. He has great feet. I just said he has great feet a few posts back in the only post I even mentioned his feet in! I've worked hard getting them conditioned so that he's sound on the gravel road. How many horses are sound on a gravel road barefoot for miles?

I really appreciate those that took the time to understand what's going on and put themselves in my shoes, and I believe that includes some who have recommended putting him down and some who have not.

BTW, I already had someone wanting to buy Zip and haven't even put him up for sale. Only he's at my house where they saw him coming down our driveway. Of course, I'm not going to sell him right now. That would certainly be an easy way out.

As I said previously. My plan was to send him to a professional trainer for evaluation before I ever put him up for sale. And I would only put him for sale if the trainer felt he was good. This would be after he has recovered from surgery and I restart him under saddle. I already had a recommendation for a very good trainer in Pocahontas, Arkansas. And of course, if I sold him, any buyer would be informed that he had bitten before when a stud. 

He has never acted this way with any horse person. Also, I have learned that cryptorchidism can cause excess testosterone production or testicular cancer, so I think that's something to consider as well. I have read their seems to be an observed increase in aggression in cryptorchid geldings vs regular ones which I never knew about before. I read a response from a vet that said that as well as a horse person who has handled regular and cryporchid studs. He said the cryptorchids were the crankiest ones.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

southerngurl said:


> Zip has had hundreds of hrs of training, mostly on the ground, but yes he was started under saddle before as well. Just three rides but he did well. No bucking, rearing etc. He has great feet. I just said he has great feet a few posts back in the only post I even mentioned his feet in! I've worked hard getting them conditioned so that he's sound on the gravel road. How many horses are sound on a gravel road barefoot for miles?
> 
> I really appreciate those that took the time to understand what's going on and put themselves in my shoes, and I believe that includes some who have recommended putting him down and some who have not.
> 
> ...


OK, so obviously you have your mind made up. :shrug: I did read all 3 pages of this thread, and am not the first person to think that the aggressive behavior was unusual and dangerous. 

We all put hundreds of hours into *training* our horses, but that doesn't make them "trained" to do anything in particular. A five year old stallion that has been ridden only 3 times and exhibits aggressive behaviors isn't exactly a "trained" horse. You know this. That's not neccesarily a bad thing, but to be offended when someone point it out is a little strange.

I have a pretty useless horse as well; an ex-racehorse, ex-broodmare. Certainly more than several hundred hours of "training" in her - between race training, ground handling, and retraining undersaddle. That still makes her "green broke" at best....and she's 15. In my case, she's still around because she's somewhat useful and certainly not dangerous, but she's not exactly desireable to anyone other than me. 

She's certainly not "useful" or "trained" to most people looking for a horse. If she offered dangerous behavior there wouldn't be much of a question in my mind what to do. :shrug:

Good luck with your decisions, and I hope that gelding helps.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

What I was refering to was your stating that he 

a-had no more training than that to trim his feet 
b-had bad feet
And c- you seemed to indicate that I would be trying to sell him unbroke.

These were gone over in what I wrote already and so what you wrote seemed to indicate you skimmed and didn't get caught up on the whole situation before posting. I've been guilty of the same but in this situaiton so many have already offered advice (which YES, has helped me make a decision at this point in time, it's been 3 pages of talk here- the appointment has already been made and I have a system lined out that is dependent on the horse's behavior as we go. ) that apparently took the time to get a good understanding of, and consider, what's going on. 

Training only works when used, which it was not being used in either of these situations. I don't think you'll find any trainer that can train a young horse for safe handling and cause him to stay always safe when being handled by (or interacting with) someone who isn't maintaining that training. ALL interaction with a horse is training- good or bad. And yes, the training he has is quite useful as it's foundation for any work he may be put to. 

Zip is only 5, well going on 6 come April. If a hormonal issue spurred these two incidences and that can be removed from the picture he has much potential. If it's not just the hormones then that will be another situation entirely and he will have to be put down. I am aware of that and willing to do that if that's what it comes to. But I feel he's my responsibility and that I owe giving him his best chance first.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

OK, I'm not really trying to nitpick, but these are your exact words from your first post. I see that you then wrote about spending hours and hours on groundwork, but that was apparently several years ago.



southerngurl said:


> he had never done anything like this but he has been out on pasture without getting worked much at all for a few years. I just handle him some to trim his feet and that's about it. We usually go over our groundwork before I trim to make sure he's in the right state of mind. He is generally proud (arching his neck, quite beautiful really) but does what I ask. But he has never come close to hurting me- and I push him, make him move fast, change directions etc. I push his buttons a little before I get under him to trim him.


I do not own a stallion, so maybe other people would consider this normal interaction with a stallion. But my horses (15 yo TB, 6 yo TB and 6 yo paint) are expected to be in the "right state of mind" at all times without a refresher. 

I didn't say he had bad feet. You said he had no solar depth at the toe as a youngster, which is not something that is likely to change a whole lot, even with good trimming. The horse isn't in work, so I would *question* his feet by those two statements. My 15 yo TB mare can go barefoot with ease, as long as she's not in work. But I'd consider her feet marginal at best. Not a dealbreaker, but something that would factor into a purchase. My paint mare has great feet. That was one of my first requirements when I bought a new horse.

Considering that he is unbroke, yes, I did assume that is how you would sell him. 

And, with this information as well as the behavioral issues - no, I would never consider buying this horse.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Yes, his current situation is he hasn't been getting worked with. My mom got very sick about 3 years ago and for about a year and a half it was all I could do to take care of the necessities. Fun things like working the horses went out the window. But before he had a lot of work that he remembers when you ask it of him. 

If you had left your 6 yo paint or TB in the pasture for three years, they would probably need a refresher too. Yes, I would think proud behavior (arched neck, a little extra bounce to the trot) to be normal for some stallions. He really thinks he's something right now. 

He does have solar depth when he did not before. It's commonly believed thin soles are not fixable but that is untrue. I have seen different several times. Nutrition (particularly minerals like copper and zinc), conditioning and proper trimming can make all the difference in the world. 

I did explain I planned to start him under saddle and then probably send to a trainer before I would sell him.

I understand you missed these things, that's ok. Like I say, I've done the same thing. :cowboy:


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

southerngurl said:


> Yes, his current situation is he hasn't been getting worked with. My mom got very sick about 3 years ago and for about a year and a half it was all I could do to take care of the necessities. Fun things like working the horses went out the window. But before he had a lot of work that he remembers when you ask it of him.
> 
> If you had left your 6 yo paint or TB in the pasture for three years, they would probably need a refresher too. Yes, I would think proud behavior (arched neck, a little extra bounce to the trot) to be normal for some stallions. He really thinks he's something right now.
> 
> ...


I didn't miss them. I just still don't see "start him under saddle" and "send him to a trainer" as actually selling him as broke. That's selling him "started" at best. I guess we have different opinions about what makes a horse broke. Even with 90 days of professional training he'd be worth only about $1500 in my book. Maybe. Assuming his behavior wasn't an issue. But I can find a 3 year old with the same training, without the other issues.

My farrier would disagree about solar depth, but whatever. You can improve it with good trimming and nutrition, but genetics are genetics.

Look, I think it's great that you're giving him a chance. I might as well, if he were mine. But I doubt it, because I can't afford the liability issues that you might have.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Broke as in greenbroke. 

A lot of farriers don't believe sole depth can be improved. It really has no bearing though.


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## susieM (Apr 23, 2006)

Take the easy way out...sell him.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

I spent a month in Kyrgystan last summer, traveling on horseback and living with shepherd families. This a true horse culture, and their stud horses are ridden and used every day and they behave. It is a matter training. Only in America where horses are pets, and studs are allowed to misbehave do we have this problem.

In the wild a stud horse has two jobs, to breed mares and kill anything else that gets in his way. 

What you choose to do with your horse is your business. But don't expect results with out a lot of work.


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## Mare Owner (Feb 20, 2008)

Personally, I would not keep a horse around that has hurt two people the way this horse has. A nip is a nip, not the same as a bite that rips skin, and he could have *KILLED* the husband, seriously.

And I wouldn't feel right selling him to another person either, risking him injuring someone else down the line.

FOR ME, this horse would be put down.

It's a difficult decision to make and difficult to do. You can't change what's already happened, and the only way to be SURE he doesn't injure someone else in the future is to put him down. You have my sympathies, it's not a good situation to be in, but as owners, we have to be responsible for our animals.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

I feel that when a horse bites its SO much worse than a kick (even though a kick usually does more damage). A kick is a natural reaction for a horse and they often do it without thinking. Like you sneak up behind one and they kick first and then figure out what they kicked second. A horse will also kick out of real fear. A bite on the other hand is nothing more than aggression 99% of the time. When a horse bites you they bloody well know exactly what they are doing. And its not ok, ever. A bite to me clearly says the horse thinks/knows he can push people around. 


I fully believe any more money into him is a waste. You could spend $3000 training him and he will still be 'maybe' a $1500 horse and that is if he could learn not to attack people. I find though that once they learn that people are easy to push around that they never forget it no matter how much training they get after.


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## RLStewart (Sep 10, 2006)

Well I think this is getting to the point of beating a dead horse so to speak. I have a hard time believing that so many think you shouldn't even try to train a horse just because it bit someone and ran them over. Esp when you don't know all of details as its non-horse people so you don't know what they may have done to provoke it. I've been bitten, run over, kicked and mauled in about everyway possible and have never actually seen a horse that was so dangerous that it didn't deserve a chance. You have no idea how much improvement you will get out of gelding him until you do it. I had a colt that was cryptochid and he was a terror. They didn't get everything the first time they gelded him as a yearling and come his 2 year old spring he was trying to climb over 6 ft stall walls to get to mares and basically behaving like a little heathen. Truthfully he is still a jerk but the best barrelhorse I've ever owned and only a danger to you if you can't ride out some bucking every spring. My barn would be pretty empty if I put a bullet in the head of every horse that has ever bit me or attempted to. Yes its snotty agressive behavior that says they need an atitude adjustment but to me with young horses its just like teenagers mouthing off. Even if they know better they still feel the need to try it from time to time. I'm sure in some breeds/bloodlines there is less cockiness but in barrelracing you really don't want a timid horse so the bloodlines I have are fairly obnoxious youngsters. At any rate SG I think what you are planning is what I would do in you situation and good luck!


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## TxHorseMom (Feb 21, 2011)

susieM said:


> Take the easy way out...sell him.


I think that statement is totally unfair. A lot of people would think that putting him down is the easy way out. And I'm one of the ones who advised her to do just that.

She is spending her money to get the gelding done, she plans on sending him to a trainer and THEN if he is still dangerous to put him down. That certainly is NOT "the easy way out." 

I still don't agree with her decision, but it is her horse, her money, her (potential) liability, therefore, her decision.

I wish her the best of luck with him, and I hope it works out. Not everyone would give a horse this much of an opportunity to improve.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Txhorsemom, susieM is just trolling.


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

RLStewart said:


> Well I think this is getting to the point of beating a dead horse so to speak. I have a hard time believing that so many think you shouldn't even try to train a horse just because it bit someone and ran them over. Esp when you don't know all of details as its non-horse people so you don't know what they may have done to provoke it. I've been bitten, run over, kicked and mauled in about everyway possible and have never actually seen a horse that was so dangerous that it didn't deserve a chance. You have no idea how much improvement you will get out of gelding him until you do it. I had a colt that was cryptochid and he was a terror. They didn't get everything the first time they gelded him as a yearling and come his 2 year old spring he was trying to climb over 6 ft stall walls to get to mares and basically behaving like a little heathen. Truthfully he is still a jerk but the best barrelhorse I've ever owned and only a danger to you if you can't ride out some bucking every spring. My barn would be pretty empty if I put a bullet in the head of every horse that has ever bit me or attempted to. Yes its snotty agressive behavior that says they need an atitude adjustment but to me with young horses its just like teenagers mouthing off. Even if they know better they still feel the need to try it from time to time. I'm sure in some breeds/bloodlines there is less cockiness but in barrelracing you really don't want a timid horse so the bloodlines I have are fairly obnoxious youngsters. At any rate SG I think what you are planning is what I would do in you situation and good luck!


EXACTLY! Please update on the gelding asap, I'm really rooting for him! :thumb:


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## nduetime (Dec 15, 2005)

TxHorseMom said:


> She is spending her money to get the gelding done, she plans on sending him to a trainer and THEN if he is still dangerous to put him down. That certainly is NOT "the easy way out."
> 
> I wish her the best of luck with him, and I hope it works out. Not everyone would give a horse this much of an opportunity to improve.


:rock::clap::clap: I completely agree with this statement! Best of luck SG, and I hope everything works out just as you want it to.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

RLStewart said:


> Well I think this is getting to the point of beating a dead horse so to speak. I have a hard time believing that so many think you shouldn't even try to train a horse just because it bit someone and ran them over. Esp when you don't know all of details as its non-horse people so you don't know what they may have done to provoke it. I've been bitten, run over, kicked and mauled in about everyway possible and have never actually seen a horse that was so dangerous that it didn't deserve a chance. You have no idea how much improvement you will get out of gelding him until you do it. I had a colt that was cryptochid and he was a terror. They didn't get everything the first time they gelded him as a yearling and come his 2 year old spring he was trying to climb over 6 ft stall walls to get to mares and basically behaving like a little heathen. Truthfully he is still a jerk but the best barrelhorse I've ever owned and only a danger to you if you can't ride out some bucking every spring. My barn would be pretty empty if I put a bullet in the head of every horse that has ever bit me or attempted to. Yes its snotty agressive behavior that says they need an atitude adjustment but to me with young horses its just like teenagers mouthing off. Even if they know better they still feel the need to try it from time to time. I'm sure in some breeds/bloodlines there is less cockiness but in barrelracing you really don't want a timid horse so the bloodlines I have are fairly obnoxious youngsters. At any rate SG I think what you are planning is what I would do in you situation and good luck!


I agree as well!


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

RLStewart said:


> Well I think this is getting to the point of beating a dead horse so to speak. I have a hard time believing that so many think you shouldn't even try to train a horse just because it bit someone and ran them over. Esp when you don't know all of details as its non-horse people so you don't know what they may have done to provoke it. I've been bitten, run over, kicked and mauled in about everyway possible and have never actually seen a horse that was so dangerous that it didn't deserve a chance. You have no idea how much improvement you will get out of gelding him until you do it. I had a colt that was cryptochid and he was a terror. They didn't get everything the first time they gelded him as a yearling and come his 2 year old spring he was trying to climb over 6 ft stall walls to get to mares and basically behaving like a little heathen. Truthfully he is still a jerk but the best barrelhorse I've ever owned and only a danger to you if you can't ride out some bucking every spring. My barn would be pretty empty if I put a bullet in the head of every horse that has ever bit me or attempted to. Yes its snotty agressive behavior that says they need an atitude adjustment but to me with young horses its just like teenagers mouthing off. Even if they know better they still feel the need to try it from time to time. I'm sure in some breeds/bloodlines there is less cockiness but in barrelracing you really don't want a timid horse so the bloodlines I have are fairly obnoxious youngsters. At any rate SG I think what you are planning is what I would do in you situation and good luck!



..a two year old stud "feeling his oats" is different then one who has injured 2 people, with really no "reason"..

my stud, at two, scaled a fence and jumped into my broodmare pasture..where my one broodmare promptly cornered him and wouldnt let him move til I got out there. Put the fear O' God into him and he never tried it again. 

I may get flack for this..but there are way to many good, well mannered horses out there to waste my time and money on something that has caused injury in two seperate instances. 

I hope SG is able to make a descion she thinks is right..its a tough call.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I appreciate the support. 

We called the vet today to see if the vet could do two while he's here and get the colt done since I have enough money to do both now (he can) but she said a friend died so he moved us to Monday 21. They were going to call us. 

Seems like it's never gonna happen but I know it will. 10 days...

He's not been any trouble though I'm just ready to see it done. My mom watered him this morning (through the panel) as my back is out today (we have to haul his water to him) and he didn't show any kind of aggression towards her. I was standing right by her watching him. Very calm and just wanted his water.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I guess it's all about what _you'll_ put up with... I won't have a truly disrespectful horse in my barn, outstanding or not. Both mares I have now have been mildly disrespectful (nippy, mostly) but "come to Jesus meetings" set everything right, if they didn't they wouldn't be here. I believe in breeding for conformation, ability, *and* disposition, all my mares have been those things or they went down the road quickly.

I don't believe that anyone advocated putting this colt down prior to gelding.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't believe that anyone advocated putting this colt down prior to gelding.


I believe several people have...offthegrid did for sure.


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## Mare Owner (Feb 20, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't believe that anyone advocated putting this colt down prior to gelding.


I do; I think it's the only responsible thing to do in this situation. I would not waste the money or time gelding this colt.

I know it's a difficult decision, but doing the right thing isn't always easy.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Mare Owner said:


> I do; I think it's the only responsible thing to do in this situation. I would not waste the money or time gelding this colt.
> 
> I know it's a difficult decision, but doing the right thing isn't always easy.


I probably would too. But it's SG's time and money and how she wants to spend it is her business.
Seems kind of silly to keep beating on her about it. The horse is not where he can hurt anyone else...what's the big deal?
I don;t know how putting him down immediately is any more "right" than giving him a chance if no one else is in danger and the horse is not suffering?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I believe several people have...offthegrid did for sure.


I totally missed it. Why would anyone put him down without gelding him to see if that was causing the aggressive behavior?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mare Owner said:


> I do; I think it's the only responsible thing to do in this situation. I would not waste the money or time gelding this colt.
> 
> I know it's a difficult decision, but doing the right thing isn't always easy.


Why wouldn't you invest a small amount of money to see if testosterone was the cause of the aggressive behavior? I'd do it for nothing more than curiosity.


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## Mare Owner (Feb 20, 2008)

The original question was "what would you do?"

If you've got all kinds of extra money laying around and want to put the horse thru the surgery (which has it's own risks) of gelding him, just to satisfy your own curiousity, that's your choice, of course. IMO, regardless if this is a gelding or stud, or if it was a mare, doesn't matter. A nip is not the same as a bite. The horse bit and ran over someone. You can't put the horse in a room for the rest of his life in order to be sure nobody ever goes up to pet him, for fear he will bite them like he has done before. 

If something happens to SG, (as it has, as she has her mother helping water the horse she just said?) then who is at risk of getting injured by this horse? Who knows. You can't control the world.

A loose horse that chooses to bite and runover a person, instead of just shouldering them to the side is DANGEROUS to everyone. He wasn't simply trying to get away, he was being overly agressive.

I don't know about the rest of you, but there's people who come to my farm uninvited, girl scouts selling cookies, Jehovah's witnesses, delivery people, neighbors, etc and if someone wants to pet a horse they see in the yard, they will. I would not have this horse on my place, and I would take responsibility for the injuries he's already inflicted and put him down before someone else gets hurt or killed.

And I'm not a heartless b1tch, really. I have had horses who've been mistreated in the past, or whatever, who have their issues and chose to work with them. The difference is that they weren't trying to kill someone.

If SG decides to go thru with the gelding and retraining, that is her choice, and she's the one who has to live with it. It's her time and money and conscience, and it's her horse. And I hope it works out and nobody else ever gets hurt by that horse. She will make the decision for herself.

What if this was a dog that bit two people this badly, or a child that had gotten bit and run over by the horse instead of a man? What if the man DID get trampled? Would you still not recommend the horse be put down? It's not a good situation any way you look at it. I am surprised, (well maybe not really) that so many on here are saying that the horse should be given a third chance.

If my husband had been bit and run over by a horse like is described here, the horse would have been put down on the spot. A cow or bull that is agressive, and/or hurts someone will be butchered ASAP before a second person can get hurt. To me, this is no different, it's simply not worth the risk.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Mare Owner said:


> I am surprised, (well maybe not really) that so many on here are saying that the horse should be given a third chance.
> 
> .


Oh that's right...you got all cranked up about the meanies here on the lethal white thread a few years back. Interestingly...you wanted to give irresponsible breeders who knowingly take a chance on watching a foal die an agonizing death a free pass, but not a horse who may well change if the testosterone is taken away.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=288194


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

There are many classic quotes from Mare Owner on that other thread, but this one pretty much sums it up for me:

"Please don't be too hard on these owners. It is their choice to make, and at least they are making an informed decision."

Try taking your own medicine.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Oh that's right...you got all cranked up about the meanies here on the lethal white thread a few years back. Interestingly...you wanted to give irresponsible breeders who knowingly take a chance on watching a foal die an agonizing death a free pass, but not a horse who may well change if the testosterone is taken away.
> 
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=288194


Here's Mare Owner's opinion a few years ago: "I think it is sad that so many will jump to condemn the owners (who they don't know). THEY are the ones taking the risk and dealing personally with its aftermath or success. Whenever ANYONE loses a foal, it is an awful thing to go through, how can someone not have ANY sympathy for the people, when it was NOT a guaranteed result?"

What's the difference in risking a foal to HYPP or OLW and a colt to gelding? Or is it just your sacred cow that's worth the risk?


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

Excuse me?? To those bringing up a thread from 09 (who does that?) about Mare Owner...

To me there is a HUGE difference between maybe having to humanly put down a foal that doesn't even know the difference and keeping a horse that has proven to be very aggressive. No I would never ever breed two horses knowing I had a 25% chance of having to kill the foal, but I sure as heck wouldn't keep a horse that aggressively charged someone either. But thats just me. All my horses are sweet as pie and if they were anything other than sweet as pie I wouldn't own them. I have little kids to worry about. My horses aren't even allowed to pin their ears at me....ever!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jackie said:


> Excuse me?? To those bringing up a thread from 09 (who does that?) about Mare Owner...
> 
> To me there is a HUGE difference between maybe having to humanly put down a foal that doesn't even know the difference and keeping a horse that has proven to be very aggressive. No I would never ever breed two horses knowing I had a 25% chance of having to kill the foal, but I sure as heck wouldn't keep a horse that aggressively charged someone either. But thats just me. All my horses are sweet as pie and if they were anything other than sweet as pie I wouldn't own them. I have little kids to worry about. My horses aren't even allowed to pin their ears at me....ever!


How do you know if that this colt won't be sweet as pie once he's gelded? I believe SG said it would only be $350 to geld him, as I said before I'd do it just to satisfy my curiosity. Why is it any different to put down a foal as it would be to put down SG's colt? Google the symptoms of OLW- I can imagine the pain of being unable to pass feces is intense.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Jackie said:


> Excuse me?? (who does that?)


You know..I keep wondering the exact same thing about all these, "kill the horse!" posts hammering away at someone who clearly cares deeply about her horse and is willing to spend time and money to make sure she's given him every chance she can before she makes the decision whether or not to euthanize him.
But cheer up. Maybe the surgery won't work and you'll get your way.:smack

Till then, maybe have a little compassion for Southerngurl and let her try her best to save her horse, huh?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> You know..I keep wondering the exact same thing about all these, "kill the horse!" posts hammering away at someone who clearly cares deeply about her horse and is willing to spend time and money to make sure she's given him every chance she can before she makes the decision whether or not to euthanize him.
> But cheer up. Maybe the surgery won't work and you'll get your way.:smack
> 
> Till then, maybe have a little compassion for Southerngurl and let her try her best to save her horse, huh?


Exactly.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> How do you know if that this colt won't be sweet as pie once he's gelded? I believe SG said it would only be $350 to geld him, as I said before I'd do it just to satisfy my curiosity. Why is it any different to put down a foal as it would be to put down SG's colt? Google the symptoms of OLW- I can imagine the pain of being unable to pass feces is intense.


I am pretty sure that just about everyone who has a lethal white born would have the good sense to put it down as soon as it was born. I could be wrong though. My experience is very limited.

$350 is a LOT of money to a lot of people. It would not be _only_ $350 to me. I understand he could be sweet as pie once he is gelded, but I personally wouldn't do it. $350 could buy an older well broke horse that is already sweet as pie around here.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't believe that anyone advocated putting this colt down prior to gelding.


He's not a colt at 5 years. And, yes, I'd put him down before gelding. Gelding is expensive. Training is expensive. This comes down to liability and financial issues. Sounds like OP is short of money if she is just now able to afford to get the vet out. Sounds as if OP is also short on space if the horse needs to be on the neighbors' property.

This horse is going to need at least 60 days of training by an experienced trainer. That'd be $600 to $700 on the cheap side. Gelding a crypt isn't cheap. Horse will also need a great deal of riding after the training. So.... you're going to have more than $1000 in this horse. For $1000 I can get an experienced trail horse who's got decent papers and who has never come so close to badly hurting people. 

What will you do if, after you sell your boy, he offers to bite and badly hurts or kills someone? What if they sue you? Does your boy have great papers or some other reason that make him a valuable horse? Can you afford to have more than $1000 in him and then have to put him down? 

Heck, three years ago we got a three year old APHA gelding of good quality who was purchased by the previous owner (a local breeder of high quality horses) for her daughter to use as a show horse. He cost just over $1000. We also purchased a trail broke breeding stock paint two years ago for less than $500. Both of these horses are husband/child safe. 

A dangerous horse won't offer to bite every single time one has contact. If a horse did this the decision wouldn't be nearly as difficult. I just cannot imagine how difficult a decision putting this horse down would be. I don't envy your predicament. 

OP, I think you already know that putting this horse down is the right decision because otherwise I cannot imagine you asking the question here.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

It would be an entirely different situation if the person who had been attacked by the horse actually knew what they were doing around horses.
Euthanizing a horse because it has attacked a totally inexperienced person who chose to put themselves at risk without an experienced horseperson present seems like a gross overreaction to me.

This young stud could turn into a great gelding. I'd give him a chance if he were mine.

And $350 is nothing in terms of horse expenses.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Southerngurl, you asked what we would do--you are doing what I would do. You don't really know what happened. Your neighbors aren't horse people. When things like that happen they happen very quickly, and people usually aren't too sure what happened. The horse certainly could have done a lot more damage to the neighbor if he had wanted to. Like I said before, I would give him another chance. I would keep him where he was under my care so I knew exactally how he was being treated. I would have him gelded (you are doing that) and work with him. It sounds like for some reason he has lost his respect for people. Hopefully, with gelding and work he will be a useful horse and a joy to you.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Jackie said:


> $350 is a LOT of money to a lot of people. It would not be _only_ $350 to me. I understand he could be sweet as pie once he is gelded, but I personally wouldn't do it. $350 could buy an older well broke horse that is already sweet as pie around here.


So SG shouldn't be able to spend her money as she chooses? She has to conform to your financial standards?
SOME people might say that if you can't spend $350 to try and save your horse...maybe you shouldn't have them.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> So SG shouldn't be able to spend her money as she chooses? She has to conform to your financial standards?
> SOME people might say that if you can't spend $350 to try and save your horse...maybe you shouldn't have them.


 I said I _*personally *_ wouldn't do it. How is that telling her how she should spend her money . And how did this turn into saying that maybe I shouldn't have horses? NO I wouldn't try to save a dangerous animal. That doesn't mean I wouldn't spend hundreds trying to save a horse that didn't do a dang thing wrong. If one of my dogs attacked someone I wouldn't spend 5 cents trying to 'save it'. But if one got hit by a car I would break the bank trying to save it.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

This vet that is coming out is less expensive than the hospital surgery. Looks like $175 maybe more if it's harder. $100 for the colt the same day so split that $75 trip charge between the two. In my area, training is generally $400 to $500 dollars for thirty days and the other riding and training I can do myself. The only reason I want another trainer is because I want him handled by someone other than myself and an outside opinion after he is gelding and I restart him under saddle. 

Zip is a nice horse, any $350 horse you get will not likely be the same quality he is. 

I cannot guarantee what any of my horses may or may not do on down the road or anytime I am not with them, nor can I guarantee they will not hurt me. But for the increased concern for this horse he has an equal or more amount of increased safety measures taken.

Other things brought up were addressed further back in the thread and I don't care to repeat them at this point. I'll let y'all know how the gelding goes.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

southerngurl said:


> This vet that is coming out is less expensive than the hospital surgery. Looks like $175 maybe more if it's harder. $100 for the colt the same day so split that $75 trip charge between the two. In my area, training is generally $400 to $500 dollars for thirty days and the other riding and training I can do myself. The only reason I want another trainer is because I want him handled by someone other than myself and an outside opinion after he is gelding and I restart him under saddle.
> 
> Zip is a nice horse, any $350 horse you get will not likely be the same quality he is.
> 
> ...


That is an extremely reasonable price for a standard gelding neverless it being a cryptorchid surgery! 

No one can guarantee the behavior of ANY horse, to think otherwise is foolish. Either one of my laid back out of work broodmares could become a problem tomorrow and I'd certainly have a Vet out to check why their behavior changed.


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## Waiting Falcon (Nov 25, 2010)

You said he only had one testicle down. The other is where? If the other testicle is in a position where is is pinched, pressured, or bruised, etc. the pain can make him mean. I was always taught that these males would have a worse temperament that a gelded or full stud.
But there are also studs when they come to full maturity you find out their true temperament too,
W.F.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

I am not trying to stir the fire. (I can't tell if people are upset at opinions, or if there is deeper discord going on that is not uncommon on forums.))

I was one of the people that stated, that if it were me in the situation, I would seriously consider euthanizing him. I was only giving my personal opinion of what I would do in that situation. I also explained why I would consider euthanizing him and I also explained several other options I would consider. 

I think just because someone shared that they would euthanize the horse in their own opinion, is not beating up the OP unless they are continually restating and hassling the OP to euth the horse. This may have happened and I overlooked it, but I don't recall this happening. Some people do not take time to read through a whole thread before posting, they read the original post and then type a response. So a late response of "euth him" may be construed as pressuring the OP "after" she has made her decision.

Even though I stated that I would consider euthanizing(and other options) him myself, I do not take it personal or judge the OP for not choosing that path. Just as I hope, others can respect me for the several options I would have considered. I look forward to hearing about positive progress and wish her and the horses(good call on getting them both gelded) best of luck.

I really do, honestly, hope that he does not display the behavior again. I mean that was the one thing that we *all* agreed upon no matter what our solution to the problem was.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

I wish you lived closer. I would cut him for free just to see how he turns out. All it takes is a rope a pocket knife, and about fifteen minutes.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

muleskinner2 said:


> I wish you lived closer. I would cut him for free just to see how he turns out. All it takes is a rope a pocket knife, and about fifteen minutes.


Not if he's cryptorchid 

I trust you're not advocating conducting abdominal exploratory surgery with a pocket knife!


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I believe several people have...offthegrid did for sure.


If she hasn't had the time/money/interest in gelding this horse and training it before it was 5 years old, why now? Now the horse is a dangerous cryptorchid stallion at worst, and at best, a minimally handled/minimally trained cryptorchid stallion.

I am not a "kill the horse" person. But at some point you do need to decide if the benefit is worth the cost. At this point she's going to have to invest a lot of money for someone else to buy him. And that's assuming that gelding corrects the behavior problem.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

offthegrid said:


> If she hasn't had the time/money/interest in gelding this horse and training it before it was 5 years old, why now? Now the horse is a dangerous cryptorchid stallion at worst, and at best, a minimally handled/minimally trained cryptorchid stallion.
> 
> I am not a "kill the horse" person. But at some point you do need to decide if the benefit is worth the cost. At this point she's going to have to invest a lot of money for someone else to buy him. And that's assuming that gelding corrects the behavior problem.


SG has already decided he's worth the cost, and she detailed why she wasn't able to work with him as much. Her horse, her money, her time.


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## Mare Owner (Feb 20, 2008)

There are a lot of interesting things a person could quote from that thread from two years ago. Irresponsible breeders are mentioned, for one, well what about irresponsible owners? I stand by what I said in that thread.

This thread here is a completely different situation. TWO people have been injured, one ended up in the ER and could have been KILLED. To ME it is irresponsible to not put the horse down.

And I do have sympathy for SG, as I KNOW it's not an easy decision, and I do hope it works out, as I have already said.

This thread is a reminder why I don't spend much time in here, because a few in here really take offense and attack others instead of letting everyone contribute their opinion when asked. It is not a welcoming forum in the least.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Or a few people could be a bit upset by the lack of compassion shown to a young woman who has already (actually quite awhile ago) *decided* to give her horse a chance. Again, SG's horse, money, and time. :happy0035: 

I just find it very odd that someone would advocate putting down a horse rather than gelding it to see if testosterone was the problem, but doesn't have a problem breeding HYPP and OLW positive horses.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> Or a few people could be a bit upset by the lack of compassion shown to a young woman who has already (actually quite awhile ago) *decided* to give her horse a chance. Again, SG's horse, money, and time. :happy0035:
> 
> I just find it very odd that someone would advocate putting down a horse rather than gelding it to see if testosterone was the problem, but doesn't have a problem breeding HYPP and OLW positive horses.


I find that rather ironic as well.


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## Mare Owner (Feb 20, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> Or a few people could be a bit upset by the lack of compassion shown to a young woman who has already (actually quite awhile ago) *decided* to give her horse a chance. Again, SG's horse, money, and time. :happy0035:
> 
> I just find it very odd that someone would advocate putting down a horse rather than gelding it to see if testosterone was the problem, but doesn't have a problem breeding HYPP and OLW positive horses.


I do have compassion for her, maybe you've missed that in some of my posts, as I said, I don't post here often because my opinions don't agree with a vocal minority, so many of you don't really know me. In my life owning all kinds of animals I've had to make some very difficult decisions like this, and I KNOW it's hard and I do feel for SG. Sometimes the most appropriate thing to do is the hard thing.

And back to the other thread? Again, this is a completely different situation. I personally do not believe testosterone is the single answer to why the horse has injured people.

In consideration to SG, I'll stop posting on this thread. Feel free to PM me if you want to keep attacking my opinions.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mare Owner said:


> Feel free to PM me if you want to keep attacking my opinions.


I'm not attacking your opinion, I'm disgusted that you breed HYPP and OLW positive horses. I'd feel the same way toward _anyone_ that bred for a mutation or played roulette with genetics. :grit:


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

It has been a month since this thread was posted. Is he gelded yet? What are you waiting for?


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

farmgal said:


> It has been a month since this thread was posted. Is he gelded yet? What are you waiting for?


Read the thread, it's all there.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

We are responsible for the animals in our care and I think it would be highly irresponsible to just put this horse down before taking the time to find out if $175 and a bit of work will change his disposition.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

Well..
for me nothaving the skills or the guts to work with this type of horse I think I would have no choice but to put down. Or give to someone with full disclosure.
Yeah tho to SG for going to try another route.
Will be lurking to see how it all plays out. BESt of luck!


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

ok, I read through again. It is hard to read all that bickering, so I just read southergurls. Says he gets gelded on the 16th, Wednesday. Just curious.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Been bumped to the 21st, I think...


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