# Scopes and Eye Relief



## dheat (Jul 27, 2005)

In a previous thread I mentioned I'm trying convert my Winchester 88 into a scout rifle configuration. One attribute of such a rifle is the scope is mounted forward, in front of the receiver. Therefore, I need a scope with long or extended eye relief.

*Scope specifications usually indicate the eye relief in inches or millimeters or both, but what does the value really mean? Is it an optimum, minimum or maximum distance?*

Thanks for your input.

Doug


----------



## backwoodsman (Jan 21, 2010)

I dont know for certain but I believe its optimum distance. As too far and its almost impossible to see and too close and you get dinged.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

That's the optimum, and you'll normally have an inch or two either way to play with.
Depending on the distance, you may need an "Intermediate" eye relief.

[ame]http://www.google.com/search?complete=1&hl=en&source=hp&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=intermediate+eye+relief+scope[/ame]


----------



## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Lower power scopes also have more leeway. A 32X target scope has about a 1/4" sweet spot, a pistol or LER scope can have several inches. 

Would a holographic sight work for you? They have any eye relief you want.


----------



## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

I have used extended eye relief scopes on barrel mounted bases, sorta like a 
scout style, most have been on shotgun slug barrels. 
They were intended to be mounted this way and had a drilled and tapped base, for a solid mount.

They are low power, used more as a sight than a magnified sight, won't be shooting the 20 ga 300 yds anytime soon.

You can look at the scope in question and determine the distance you will be using it, as it may be shorter than say, a pistol scope held at arms length.

Seems that all scopes have to be slid forward and back to fit you, where you can pick up and find a good sight picture, with out too much moving forward and back.

Heavy clothes will also alter where this spot is, set up and sight in in warm weather, than hunt with a heavy jacket/coat/vest etc.

For your project I would be concerned with a good solid scope mount as the front sight Drilled holes are pretty close together,or dovetailed into the barrel from what I've seen, that leaves lot of weight cantilevered out over the barrel.

I guess I would also look at a small lensed scope, 30mm or smaller to keep weight down as well.

Visit to a good scope store, with a lot of scopes to try out should tell you the story.
Be prepared to pay for a small, good scope. It seems that the cheaper scopes are larger to accomplish the same thing?

Just my opinion, intresting project and would be intrested to see what you come up with.


----------



## quietstar (Dec 11, 2002)

Doug..I've long invested in Leupold rifle scopes for their light weight durability and Gin clear lens. The other advantage I knew about, but didn't often consider was extended eye relief. That came into play when I mounted my rifle in a twisted or unusual position,(tree stand) I will still have a full scope view of the target. Lesser scopes have that critical distance from your eye before the view begins to close in all around the target. Hunters can understand the problem is compounded if the target is on the move in a diminished field of view.

My understanding is that the Win 88 is a lever operated bolt action of short to medium length for rounds based on the 7.62 NATO( .308 Win.) Frankly, I don't understand the problem beyond choosing raised scope rings that provide space for additional fixed sights below the scope, unless a raised cheek piece is needed to raise your comfortable line of sight...Glen


----------



## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

quietstar said:


> My understanding is that the Win 88 is a lever operated bolt action of short to medium length for rounds based on the 7.62 NATO( .308 Win.) Frankly, I don't understand the problem beyond choosing raised scope rings that provide space for additional fixed sights below the scope, unless a raised cheek piece is needed to raise your comfortable line of sight...Glen


Itâs because heâs turning the 88 into a lever action âscoutâ rifle which requires a forward mounted scope IAW Jeff Coopers specifications. 










The concept allows for âboth eyeâ shooting with a wider field of view down range. Same reason a lot of tactical rifles use cantilever mounts to move a dot sight out past the receiver. Also with a bolt rifle allows access to the action. 

Doug,

Several scope makers produce âscoutâ scopes with the extended eye relief including Leupold:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=411427

Chuck


----------



## quietstar (Dec 11, 2002)

Chuck: Thanks for the information on what is certainly a novel weapon to me. Despite long eye relief equal to some pistol scopes, seems likely reduced field of view through the scope must result. Put me down as old fashioned about some important things being either fish or fowl...Glen


----------



## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Back when Cooper came up with the concept, I built myself a Swedish Mauser with a scout scope. One afternoon I laid in the grass at the edge of a wheat field to wait on the deer. With a half hour sun left, a buck came out about 200 yards away. Easy shot. I put up the rifle and found the sun setting behind me was shining on the rear lens and I couldn't see a thing. Normally, I place my hat brim over the lens to shade it. That wouldn't work with a scout scope. I tried holding up my left hand but couldn't steady the rifle. I tried different positions for 5 minutes until he finally noticed me flailing around in the weeds and wandered off. That Swede now wears a regular scope like God intended.

I shoot with both eyes open with regular scopes, anyway.


----------



## backwoodsman (Jan 21, 2010)

I shoot with both eyes open too but the "scout" concept works good for a utility rifle/slug gun etc. Ive got an SKS set up like that and as far as Im concerned it will be that way till I die and someone else owns it. Ive caught several yotes flat footed that took off like blazes and I doubt I could have got them with conventional setups. Last one was at approx 225yards(ways out for an SKS anyhow). He was movin right along and first shot rolled him and second sent him to the fur shed. Fine fox gun too and if we were allowed to use centerfire rifles for deer it would be one of my goto's for that too. The commercial scout rifles are too much for my blood at $600+(Im "frugal" ie:cheap) but the surplus rifles and single shot N.E.F./H&R's make good choices and some used gun bargains have turned out to be fine utility guns for friends. Red dot scopes really shine in this setup but are not the best choice due to battery life etc. If you've never tried the setup/concept may be worth a shot for you. Its not a target rifle setup for certain. But as a working man/everyday hunter/farmer etc setup its pretty good. Just like everything, some love it and some hate it. Decide for yourself.


----------



## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

quietstar said:


> Chuck: Thanks for the information on what is certainly a novel weapon to me. Despite long eye relief equal to some pistol scopes, seems likely reduced field of view through the scope must result. Put me down as old fashioned about some important things being either fish or fowl...Glen


Glen,

I'm not a fan of them either to be honest, at least not for a primary hunting rifle. For the couple I handled/shot, they really seemed to make the rifle front heavy. 

They do have a reduced field of view through the scope, but an enormous field of view around it. I also shoot with both eyes open, but with standard scope placement, the scope blocks quite a bit of what you can see when compared to a scout mounted scope. Not an issue for a regular hunting rifle, but can be an issue for a tactical or dangerous game rifle. Since the concept called for a low power scope anyway (like 2X), the smaller field of view through the scope isnât that much of a handicap. 

For a combination mid-range hunting/dangerous game/tactical rifle I guess they do make sense and they seem to be popular. In theory, theyâre supposed to be a very quick rifle for âsnapâ shooting. Thereâs a pretty good write up here that tells a little of what Copperâs rationale was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_rifle

The forward mounted optic is pretty popular on tactical carbines. On my M4 I use a Trijicon Tri-Power mounted forward:










I like the Tri-Power because it uses Fiber Optics, Tritium, and has a battery back-up. Iâve had it for over 54 years and Iâm on the same set of batteries. 

Chuck


----------



## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

54 years is great battery life.


----------



## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Ed Norman said:


> 54 years is great battery life.


Ooops!!!!!!!! I've either got to get thinner fingers, or wider keys.......

Chuck


----------



## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Chuck R. said:


> Ooops!!!!!!!! I've either got to get thinner fingers, or wider keys.......
> 
> Chuck


Is that a zytel-nylon-miracle product magazine and how does it work? So far I've avoided them except for a Tapco SKS mag that does not function.


----------



## backwoodsman (Jan 21, 2010)

I was about to ask where you got your batteries? lol, happens to me too.


----------



## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Ed Norman said:


> Is that a zytel-nylon-miracle product magazine and how does it work? So far I've avoided them except for a Tapco SKS mag that does not function.


Ed,

That's a Magpul P-Mag:



> The PMAG (Polymer MAGazine) is a lightweight 5.56x45 NATO, M-16 compatible magazine. It features an advanced impact resistant polymer construction, a pop-off Impact Cover for storage, and an easy to disassemble design with a flared floorplate for positive magazine extraction from pouches.
> 
> The Polymer Magazine (PMAGâ¢) is a lightweight 5.56 NATO, M-16 compatible magazine. The PMAGâ¢ features a pop-off storage/dust cover that alleviates pressure from the magazine feed lips, allowing for storage of loaded magazines without risk of feed lip creep that often causes malfunction in standard aluminum magazines. PMAGâ¢ utilizes a resilient stainless steel spring for corrosion resistance.
> 
> ...


I have 20 of them, they usually retail for about $14 each. They're probably considered to be "state of the art" as far as AR15 mags go these days. They are also slightly longer than a standard AR mag so you can easily seat a fully loaded 30 round magazine instead of downloading to 28rds. 

I've used them in a couple classes and for matches, dropped them on the ground/gravel/concrete. The ones I own have been flawless so far. Once I tried a couple I started swapping out all my aluminum mags. 

Chuck


----------



## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Thanks. I've got some almost worn out aluminums and I'll give these a try. The only one I have trouble with is the little 10 rounder that came with the rifle. I need it to fit in a hard scabbard on the 4 wheeler, but I switch it out as soon as I pull out the rifle. Sometimes it fails to feed.


----------



## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Back to the real reason for this thread, extended eye relief "scout scopes".

I not a fan of them, actually wasn't a real big fan of any scopes, till I got older and found it harder to see both rear and front open sights at the same time.
So, as un-natural as it was, I scoped up a couple of long shooters and headed tor the range.
Open sights I can say that I always shot with both eyes open, with a scope, seems for me that not so much anymore, and when I do it seems to be a conscious thought, rather than natural.

So, as some wouldn't want to to use this configuration (me included), practice with what ever you come up with is the most important part of being effective.

P.S. a 54 year old battery is pretty good.


----------



## dheat (Jul 27, 2005)

Hey All,

thanks for the answering my question and then some.

I spoke with a gunsmith last week about building a mount similar to the XS Lever Gun Rail Kit for the Win 88. He gave a ball-park estimate of $350. That's a bit steep for me and I'm reconsidering the project. I may just mount a peep sight on it and be done.


Ed,

I had rejected the idea of a holographic sight because of the need for batteries. If I can get Chuck to tell me where to get some of those 54-year batteries, however, I may reconsider. :teehee:


Thanks everyone. I appreciate the information and the education.

Doug


----------



## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Doug,

Iâll come clean, theyâre not 54 year batteries! Although with the fiber optics I donât need to turn my batteries on, so in theory they could last that longâ¦â¦â¦â¦..

But, the Tri-Power and a couple of the Trijicon reflex sights use fiber optics and have tritium for low light illumination. These would allow you to have a dot sight âbattery freeâ and the tritium lasts around 12 years, longer actually it is half as bright after 10-12 years and may still be usable.

Also the newer Aimpoints have something like a 50,000 hour battery life and thatâs a little over 5 (not 54) years IF you leave it on. 

Chuck


----------

