# Vet Bashing



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Most areas of the country have a shortage in large animal Vets. Some areas require you bring the cow to the Clinic and it gets examined in the trailer. If you canât get it loaded, donât own a trailer, too bad. 
It was about 40 years ago when the big Sternerâs Vet hospital stopped doing horses. Far too many young gals owned horses and didnât have the cash reserves to cover the farm visit. Small farms have a reputation for slow pay in many areas.
I have several friends that are Vets. Iâve learned to read between the lines on some things. Without naming names, let me explain.
âAll he ever says when I call about a sick calf, which is twice now, is to give a shot of antibiotics; either LA 300 or Draxxin. He says the calf has pneumonia.â This means that the free information he got from the Vet, given between paying customers, (both times) was to use a common antibiotic. Apparently, the calf wasnât worth a trip to Tractor Supply Company or the Vetâs office to get the antibiotic. 
â Every time I've called or have gone into his office, his secretary acts like she's upset because I disturbed her nap; whether it's 8 a.m. or 2 p.m. And the vet himself seems less than enthused to have to be called upon. I no longer trusts vets, or people drs, any further than I can throw them.â This means that no matter how hard he tries to get free information, no one seems much interested. Imagine that? Try throwing some money around and youâll see them come to life.
âHe offered to come out and look at the calf! All the other vets I talked to said, "I don't know. Come on down. I have a shot for that." or something to that effect. Except the first vet, who said the calf needed Draxxin or LA 300, but didn't offer it to me. I don't have that on hand!â Didnât offer? You have a calf that looks like it could fit in the back seat, youâve spent the day worrying and complaining, but you canât take him to the Vet? In the time it takes to drive out to your place he could make a hundred bucks without leaving the office. You going to match that? Then get in the back of the line. Plus, you expect that he not only tells you what medication your calf might need, he needs to offer it to you? Next time please ad to the conservation with, âBut, Doctor, I donât have any. Can I get that if I come to your office or do they have that at the feed mill?â.
âHe then asked if we plan on selling milk when I have all 3 girls in milk, and I said, "Yes." He then asked if I have a pasturizer, or plan to get one. I said, "No. I cannot drink pasterized milk, it makes me sick." He said, "That's funny. It's usually the other way around. Most people get sick from drinking raw milk." For those of you that follow the raw milk beliefs, please be prepared that someone trained in Vet Medicine understands the pathogens in raw milk and is more likely to voice their educated opinion. 
For most Vets, when a customer says, â I donât care how much it costsâ¦..â that is a red flag that they donât intend paying for anything. When a Vet knows that you are an hour away with a sick Jersey bull, then the time spent at the farm, the meds, then the hour back to the office, youâd be farther ahead simply knocking the bull in the head and starting over. 
The muffler guy welded on my tailpipe the other day. Took a half hour and cost me $75. If the Vet gets muffler shop wages, youâll owe $300 just for his ride out and back to your farm.
You call the Vet, he makes an educated guess, one that will save you a farm visit and you want to second guess that a broad spectrum antibiotic wonât work? Then why waste your time and his?
You may be willing to pay for time the Vet spends on the phone, but many won't. you may be willing to dump a few hundred into a goat, sheep or jersey bull calf. But it isn't a cost effective way to manage your farm and ends up being a waste of time for the Vet.
The guy that adjusts the TV satellite tells you he'll be there some time between 8 and 5, but you expect a rapid reply from a Vet?
Time is money. be sure the livestock are penned up. Be there. Be quiet, cut out too much chit chat. Ask questions, then listen. Don't argue. Pay right away. Send him a card at Christmas.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

I agree generally with your post. On other forums people complain about their vets, or try to go cheap. Some brag about getting the vet out and he only charges $50 bucks for his work. Others say they like getting the vet out because he helps them work the cattle - cheap labor.

Well, there won't be large animal vets if they are supposed to do it for cheap or free. Eight years of hard education and working for less than plumber's wages.

And of course people complain when the diagnosis is wrong, when the only way to diagnose would be to run tests for which they don't want to pay. Somehow people think human doctors need to do tests to diagnose, but you should just be able to eyeball a cow and magically come up with something.

My sister married the son of a large animal vet in Alberta that had practiced for 30+ years. I rode with him one day, and at a dairy, he dipped raw milk straight out bulk tank and took it home for the family without pasteurizing it. I expect you will do some vet bashing now and tell us how stupid that was.


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

My sweet vet came to me when she wasn't on call worked hard dang hard for 7 hours on my Becky. We lost her any way. She only charged a measly 87 bucks! She only charged 60 for the emergency. I feel she didn't get enough. So I watch her kids for her when ever she wants. It's the least I can do. I would try to slide her more cash but I know she won't take it from me. 
My vet works very hard and I feel she deserves more pay. But I have to say her secretary is a big b word! Well Untill my vet yelled at her for being so rude to me. Her secretary did call me to apologies as did my vet .


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I have only had one vet that I would cheerfully toss over a cliff ... he just flat lied that he'd done an 'outside' test on a dog that I asked him to have done and it didn't 'show anything'. Turned out years later that there had been an abscess, which is what had caused him to go sterile at 4 years of age ... my first finished champion.

Other than that, I've had nothing but praise for the vets I have used and have had no quarrel with what they have charged or the work they have done. The vet that literally saved Weltstern's life with a bad bout of enteritis was a crabby, non-people person ... but he stayed up with Weltstern all day on a Sunday and left me a message every four hours through Sunday night saying he was holding his own.

I've never had anything but praise for the office staff of vets in MT either ... competent, knowledgeable and professional. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for the office staff I've had contact with in either of the vet clinics I've had here in KY ... not well organized and definitely not knowledgeable, but both of my KY vets have more than made up for their office staff.


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## WJMartin (Nov 2, 2011)

In my small town of Guthrie, OK, we have 3 large animal vet offices. I use the one that lives close to me, he checks my animals as he drives by and calls if he sees anything that needs checking. He is a bit harsh at times about how much money do you want to put into this animal type thing but he is up front about it and does let folks who need to run a tab because he's a hometown boy. His office staff has left much to be desired over the years but they have just gotten a computer in the office and now the office is running so much better. I feel so lucky to have 3 good vets to choose from within 5 miles of me.


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## Taylor R. (Apr 3, 2013)

Our vet spent years charging 1/3 of what every other vet in the area charges, and he's easily the nicest, most knowledgeable, and most honest of all the vets in the area (we've had almost all of them in action in emergencies). When he finally had to break down and remodel the office he felt awful for charging a little more. Because he charges so little, we make sure to get whatever we can from their office rather than the farm supply store to try to help him cover the gap. We're very blessed (by that I mean the whole county) to have him!


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

I absolutely LOVE my vet. She has been out on emergency calls at all hours for me, charges very reasonable prices(too low?!), treats me like I have common sense and animal savvy, gives lots of advise, etc. I do not know WHAT I will do when she retires.
There are several good vets in the area.
Now, I have also run across the vets who are NEVER available before 9 and after 5, on weekends or on holidays. The ones who treat me like an idiot. The ones who charge an arm and a leg. The ones who won't listen to me when I'm trying to tell me about MY livestock. Etc.
There are good vets and great vets. There are also bad vets and terrible vets.
I feel very blessed to live in an area with more of the good apples and less of the bad.
Love my vet!
Edited to add: My vet and her husband have a dairy and drink milk straight out of the bulk tank.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Vets are like anyone else- good, bad or indifferent. I have had a vet come out on Sunday at 5 pm because a horse suddently blew up like a ballon withint a few minutes of coming in off pasture. When I apologised for the poor timely, she said that it was alright, the horse really needed her.
I also had vet keep putting me of and off about coming out to help a goat in labor with kids stuck. Finally I simply told them I was bring the goat in now period. So I took the goat who was in unproductive labor into the office after two hours of instructions to wait and see from the vet.
I can forgive a misdiagnosis but not coming out when called even though there were no clients during the whole time? Just becaiuse it was only a goat?
A good vet is a treasure. A bad vet is a frustration at best.


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## rancher1913 (Dec 5, 2008)

the small "griper" homesteader--no offense to the real homesteaders on this forum--don't have proper working facility to SAFELY work large animals so the poor vet is expected to risk his life to work on an animal. our vet happily makes farm calls but only if he knows you have good corrals and a chute. he has told me horror stories about showing up at a place to look at a sick cow and the city-slicker owner says "oh the cows out in the pasture, hes to mean for me to handle, but you can drive out there and find him, he's the one that looks sick". I have a charge account at my vet that's always prepaid so he knows he's getting paid when he comes out. If I call for advice he gives it to me and I buy whatever is needed through him, sure I could get it cheaper on the net but its in my best interest to keep him around. just in the last week I've needed him twice and he's been there for me.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

rancher1913 said:


> the small "griper" homesteader--no offense to the real homesteaders on this forum--*don't have proper working facility to SAFELY work large animals so the poor vet is expected to risk his life to work on an animal.* our vet happily makes farm calls but only if he knows you have good corrals and a chute. he has told me horror stories about showing up at a place to look at a sick cow and the city-slicker owner says "oh the cows out in the pasture, hes to mean for me to handle, but you can drive out there and find him, he's the one that looks sick". I have a charge account at my vet that's always prepaid so he knows he's getting paid when he comes out. If I call for advice he gives it to me and I buy whatever is needed through him, sure I could get it cheaper on the net but its in my best interest to keep him around. just in the last week I've needed him twice and he's been there for me.


I couldn't agree more with that statement. If the vet comes to my place, (or yours) he needs to be able to get the job done safely. 

People should prioritize having corrals for working cattle and trailers for hauling cattle before getting cattle. Too many folks buy one thinking they'll never need a trailer or can't justify owning one for the number of critters they have. Let me be blunt!!!!! If you own ANY cattle, you need a way to contain them and a way to haul them. Your friendly neighbor down the road didn't take you to raise.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

A good large animal vet is worth his weight in gold, and scarcer than hen's teeth in these parts. I moved from dairy country, where vets were experts on cows and their issues. Not so much here ... 

I did have the 'traveling vet' practice out one time when the cows busted into the feed room, gorged on grain, and one became ill. The clinic actually sent two vets, a fully certified one and an intern whom she explained had more LA experience than she did. The first thing they did was take my cow's temperature. One turned to the other and said, "So, what's normal for a cow, anyway?"

I was, like, "101 degrees ..." :grit:


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I don't have a problem with vets - I do have a problem with people constantly telling other people they need to go to the vet or call the vet about every single problem an animal has, without trying any home remedies first. Then the vet comes out and does something you easily could have done yourself and you're out $300. That would be fine if it didn't happen often, but if you have enough animals you're dealing with something every week. 

It's the same with kids and doctors. People browbeat you if you don't rush your kid to the doctor for every rash and cough. I'm an RN - I know what doctors think about people who spend all their time in the Dr. office and it's not nice, yet I'm constantly hearing bossy know-it-alls demanding that people take their kids in to the Dr. for things that could easily be treated at home.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

fffarmergirl said:


> I don't have a problem with vets - I do have a problem with people constantly telling other people they need to go to the vet or call the vet about every single problem an animal has, without trying any home remedies first. Then the vet comes out and does something you easily could have done yourself and you're out $300. That would be fine if it didn't happen often, but if you have enough animals you're dealing with something every week.
> 
> It's the same with kids and doctors. People browbeat you if you don't rush your kid to the doctor for every rash and cough. I'm an RN - I know what doctors think about people who spend all their time in the Dr. office and it's not nice, yet I'm constantly hearing bossy know-it-alls demanding that people take their kids in to the Dr. for things that could easily be treated at home.


If you know what you are doing, do it. But if you just make matters worse or create a second set of problems, expect the Vet to charge you for the additional time and tests and meds required. In cow country, when the Vet is called to pull a calf, his percentages of success are low. Likely his arm isn't the first one to be down inside that cow. The Vet doesn't get the easy ones. Seldom gets the somewhat tough ones. Always gets the impossible messes.

In an attempt to save a Vet visit, people wait, often many days, try a bit of this or a bunch of that. When the animal is on deaths doorstep, call the Vet, expect him to come running. If the Vet can't get there right away, the animal dies and it is the Vet's fault. If the Vet can get out there, and tells you the animal has almost no hope of surviving at this late stage, but you believe in miracles, administers the meds and advice, but it dies, do you complain that the Vet killed your animal? Do you pay the bill anyway?

On a forum like this, people with zero animal experience reach out to folks with a wide variety of experience. What someone writes isn't always read the same way. "Mattery eyes" might be normal crusties or it might be just awful. If you have no one near by that has some successful experience with animals like yours, the internet isn't always the best choice. Better to get a Vet involved earlier or even needlessly, than to allow your lack of knowledge or poor internet advice, to kill your animals.


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## FarmerDavid (Jul 16, 2012)

francismilker said:


> I couldn't agree more with that statement. If the vet comes to my place, (or yours) he needs to be able to get the job done safely.
> 
> People should prioritize having corrals for working cattle and trailers for hauling cattle before getting cattle. Too many folks buy one thinking they'll never need a trailer or can't justify owning one for the number of critters they have. Let me be blunt!!!!! If you own ANY cattle, you need a way to contain them and a way to haul them. Your friendly neighbor down the road didn't take you to raise.


Ideally I'd have to agree with you but life isn't ideal. Most people starting in cattle aren't going to have enough for everything they need at start up. Fortunately there are good neighbors out there willing to let you use a trailer or coral. 

My neighbors don't owe me anything but I'm great foul that they are there to help if I need it. Conversely I'm always there if they need a hand with something. I feel fortunate to live in an area where most of the farmers will lend a helping hand.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Our vet knows our cows, knows our milking set up, and LOVES our raw milk!


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

my large animal vet is a grumpy old man that doesn't want to come out for just one cow BUT will give phone advice freely and will come out if he has to.
I love him =)


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

Love, love, LOVE my vet! He knows that I DO know my animals, respects my knowledge & experience with the species involved, will sell me the meds that I know I need, and even asks *me* for advice sometimes! We can have an intelligent, drama-free discussion of the options available for the particular problem we're dealing with. I'm SO lucky to have such a GOOD vet!He will let me run a tab when times are difficult, and he ain't bad on the eyes, either! Sometimes, I will take in several dozen farm fresh eggs for the entire staff, and they're SO appreciative. I'm SO lucky to have such a GOOD vet, but then, you have to build a good rapport with your vet.


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## sstoval3 (May 22, 2013)

I have honestly had a few bad experiences with vets over the years. I'm moving to a different state soon and very nervous to find and a new vet. I do have a small complaint about my vet, she seems to think money is no object. I was told to bring my dog in because she vomited once... $200 and they tell me, she's nauseated (ya think?). Any little injury she wants to do a whole panel of bloodwork, xrays, and in some cases send them to a specialist. I have learned to only call for routine shots and stuff or dire emergencies. The rest I can sum up with if its bumped cold hose it and wrap it. If its cut cold hose it and wrap it. If its an eye infection neosporin once a day. If its bloated tube it. I don't complain too much because compared to our other vets in the area she's amazing. We switched vets after we had an emergency with my mom's dog we walked in at closing time with her barely alive and our vet looked at us and said "We're closed". We took her to our large animal vet who worked on her overnight but she died anyway. I have always been a good customer, my animals are healthy, well behaved, and I always pay my bills on time. I have not gone back to the other vet since. I still blame him for her death.


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## sstoval3 (May 22, 2013)

I don't have a lot of facilities. I have only the heifer I was given as a month old and 2 horses. I don't have chutes or corrals or any of that stuff. She knows her name, comes when called, leads well, stands politely both held and tied, and will pick up her feet on command. She's destined to be a family milk cow. I wanted something that would be easy to handle. Consequently when she bloated I was able to tube her myself with no chute. I understand that isn't possible with a lot of cattle but I'd rather invest the time in a well mannered animal than the money in a chute.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

sstoval3 said:


> I don't have a lot of facilities. I have only the heifer I was given as a month old and 2 horses. I don't have chutes or corrals or any of that stuff. She knows her name, comes when called, leads well, stands politely both held and tied, and will pick up her feet on command. She's destined to be a family milk cow. I wanted something that would be easy to handle. Consequently when she bloated I was able to tube her myself with no chute. I understand that isn't possible with a lot of cattle but I'd rather invest the time in a well mannered animal than the money in a chute.


One or the other, better both, often neither.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

sstoval3 said:


> I have honestly had a few bad experiences with vets over the years. I'm moving to a different state soon and very nervous to find and a new vet. I do have a small complaint about my vet, she seems to think money is no object. I was told to bring my dog in because she vomited once... $200 and they tell me, she's nauseated (ya think?). Any little injury she wants to do a whole panel of bloodwork, xrays, and in some cases send them to a specialist. I have learned to only call for routine shots and stuff or dire emergencies. The rest I can sum up with if its bumped cold hose it and wrap it. If its cut cold hose it and wrap it. If its an eye infection neosporin once a day. If its bloated tube it. I don't complain too much because compared to our other vets in the area she's amazing. We switched vets after we had an emergency with my mom's dog we walked in at closing time with her barely alive and our vet looked at us and said "We're closed". We took her to our large animal vet who worked on her overnight but she died anyway. I have always been a good customer, my animals are healthy, well behaved, and I always pay my bills on time. I have not gone back to the other vet since. I still blame him for her death.


When âI was told to bring my dog in because she vomited onceâ, was that the result of you calling the Vet or the Vet calling you? Can I read between the lines and say that you called the Vet, actually got to talk to a Vet and expected free information?
It is tough when some folks just want a partial treatment while others want everything in the world done. For some homesteaders, it makes sense to spend $200 in Vet care for a $50 week old Jersey bull. Those that watch the economics of farming, better to have it die. Vets deal with all parts of that spectrum. 
If I were a Vet that had dealt with you complaining over a $200 office visit (and a free phone consultation) and saw you at my door with a dying dog when I was locking up and my staff was gone, I might not want to play hospice for a non-customerâs dog. If he had canceled his evening to work on your Momâs dog and she died, would you pay the bill? Would you prefer he tell you to hose it with cold water? 
Most Vets have stories of working through the night to save a hopeless situation and then get told, â Iâm not paying you for killing my dog!â So, blame the Vet for the dogâs death, but he might not miss your business as much as you think.


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## sstoval3 (May 22, 2013)

I called the vet, I didn't expect free information. I asked how much vomiting was cause for concern and at what point I should bring her in. I did not speak to the vet at all, just the receptionist. Our vet doesn't do phone consultations. I don't ask for any more information than "does this really warrant $300". My previous vet had said 5 times in one day but that vomiting once was not usually cause for concern (the vet that let my mother's dog die). My complaint was that I wasted $200. They couldn't tell me anything but she isn't running a fever and her stomach isn't tender, I could have told them that myself. They didn't do anything for her at all. 

Our large animal vet did cancel her evening and work on my mom's dog and she died anyway and yes when we picked her body up we paid the bill including the emergency expenses. We had taken her dog to the vet twice that week because she wasn't eating and was obviously unwell. He told us she was just old, no bloodwork, no checking her gums, not even a temperature check. Our large animal vet took one look at her said she was seriously anemic and needed a blood transfusion. She died that night anyway. I have always wondered if she would have lived if our other vet had done anything or if we'd gotten her to the vet that did listen the first time around.


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## sstoval3 (May 22, 2013)

Maybe a better example would be one of our dogs has just horrendous car sickness. They won't give us anything for it, we'd need to bring her in. Consequently she doesn't go anywhere but the vet.


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## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

Count me as one who does most all my own vetting. I have had goats to the vet a few times and been not very well pleased with the outcome. Once I made the mistake of having the vet disbud a kid goat that already had horn buds. Had to reburn/cut the bloody knobs myself. The vet made the mess. I paid for it and fixed it myself.

Once I called the vet because my cow couldn't deliver a too big calf and he complained that I put him in a bad position because it was in the evening, timing was bad. I pulled a large dead calf myself and it was not easy for a small person like myself.

I have a lot more experience with goats than with cows, and have helped deliver kids in just about every imaginable position without the help of a vet.

My vet gives the rabies shots that I can't legally give myself, and I once in awhile have to buy a prescription drug, and will drive down there to get that.

I'm not saying I don't like my vets or appreciate their years of training, but I've found out that I know a lot more about some goat issues than they do. And I've not found them terribly helpful if it is not during business hours.


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## CathyGo (Apr 26, 2013)

sstoval3 said:


> I was told to bring my dog in because she vomited once... $200 and they tell me, she's nauseated (ya think?). Any little injury she wants to do a whole panel of bloodwork, xrays, and in some cases send them to a specialist.


Is she a corporate chain vet? They get trained to try and get every cent out of you for unnecessary stuff. Disgusting and I look forward to them being exposed for what they are. Banfield and VCA are probably the two biggest.

$200 for a physical exam only is crazy. I take my dog to a vet that's 40 minutes away because he prefers the least invasive approach and will discuss a procedure or test rather than just telling you the dog needs it. He is also comfortable with minimal vaccination/titers.

I was charged about $75 for an exam and bordatella vaccine last time I went.


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## o&itw (Dec 19, 2008)

I suspect we are lucky to have large animal vets at all.

Why go out in the weather all times of day or night, get tromped on, get covered with manure, put up with bad or no facilities, when one can sit in a nice office from 9 to 5 and take care of posh cats and dogs and the occasional rabbit, gerbil or hamster that people bring.


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## d'vash (Apr 25, 2013)

haypoint said:


> For those of you that follow the raw milk beliefs, please be prepared that someone trained in Vet Medicine understands the pathogens in raw milk and is more likely to voice their educated opinion.


I'm a DVM student, and I drink raw m... :lookout: Perhaps, I should keep my mouth shut.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I understand that vets get a lot of calls for free advice adn, if they answered every call, they wouldn't even have time to take care of their paying customers. However, their receptionists and assistants could very easily ask them "at what point should this person bring this animal in?" "What should they check, first, before coming in?" Then, for instance, the vet could say "I can't see the animal and can't guarantee I know what's going on. if the abdomen is tender, the gums are pale, or the heart rate is such and such, they need to come in for sure." They should have the courtesy to answer such questions for established customers. New customers, they're not obligated to answer phone questions at all.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Everybody who wants to diss on vets in general needs to walk a mile in their shoes. They have to get more education than an MD, then work for a fraction of the money not to mention respect. I have run into a few vets who I don't consider to be good vets, but you will find that in any group of people - the good, the bad and the ugly. 

We have had the same vet for over 20 years and really like him. He can spay a small kitty and dehorn a 600 pound cow-critter and both are done well. He isn't excessive with his charges, although I think being a customer for so long, he goes easy with the billing for us. He has saved the lives of several of our animals over the years and given us a lot of good advice. He can be very grumpy when you need him after hours but he has never failed to come out or meet us at the clinic, depending if large or small animal emergency.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

fffarmergirl said:


> I understand that vets get a lot of calls for free advice adn, if they answered every call, they wouldn't even have time to take care of their paying customers. However, their receptionists and assistants could very easily ask them "at what point should this person bring this animal in?" "What should they check, first, before coming in?" Then, for instance, the vet could say "I can't see the animal and can't guarantee I know what's going on. if the abdomen is tender, the gums are pale, or the heart rate is such and such, they need to come in for sure." They should have the courtesy to answer such questions for established customers. New customers, they're not obligated to answer phone questions at all.


When I was in Vet Tech school, we were told that if a client was worried about their pet, than the pet needed to be seen. The only time we asked the vets if an animal needed to come in was when we were calling for follow-ups and the client said the animal was not better - some meds take a while to kick in, so we'd ask the vet if the client needed to bring the animal back or not. Otherwise, if a client called, the answer was always "we have an appointment at X time, can you come in then?"

And legally a vet cannot answer questions about an animal that he/she has not seen. So you're exactly right in that if someone that isn't a client calls with a question, or if they are a client but the vet has never seen that particular animal, they CANNOT do anything other than invite the client to make an appointment.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

bluemoonluck said:


> When I was in Vet Tech school, we were told that if a client was worried about their pet, than the pet needed to be seen. The only time we asked the vets if an animal needed to come in was when we were calling for follow-ups and the client said the animal was not better - some meds take a while to kick in, so we'd ask the vet if the client needed to bring the animal back or not. Otherwise, if a client called, the answer was always "we have an appointment at X time, can you come in then?"
> 
> And legally a vet cannot answer questions about an animal that he/she has not seen. So you're exactly right in that if someone that isn't a client calls with a question, or if they are a client but the vet has never seen that particular animal, they CANNOT do anything other than invite the client to make an appointment.


We were taught the same thing in nursing school - "if a person is worried enough to call the ER, they need to be seen." "We can't give out medical advice over the phone." But doctors still rolled their eyes and made fun of people when they brought their kids in for fevers less than 102 for less than 24 hours and they had not tried Advil and Tylenol. The poor kids were then subjected to all sorts and x-rays and painful tests to cover the doctors' behinds before the parents were told "it's just a virus" and charged at least several hundred dollars. 

The sad thing is that people are browbeaten by their "supermom" friends when they DON'T bring kids to the ER for every stupid ridiculous thing. They're danged if they do and danged if they don't.

I imagine it's the same thing with pets/vets as with kids/doctors.


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## CathyGo (Apr 26, 2013)

fffarmergirl said:


> The poor kids were then subjected to all sorts and x-rays and painful tests to cover the doctors' behinds before the parents were told "it's just a virus" and charged at least several hundred dollars.


That's downright criminal and I would expect that kind of crap to be reported.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

CathyGo said:


> That's downright criminal and I would expect that kind of crap to be reported.


Oh - but that's the way medicine is run nowadays. That is why healthcare is so expensive. You'd have to report every ER in the country. It's called "defensive medicine" and doctors are expected to practice it.


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## CathyGo (Apr 26, 2013)

That's just sad. Come to think of it I've refused about 6 tests just in the doctors office though so i can see your point.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

The first medical type job I ever had was about 18 years ago, before I was a nurse. I worked as an ophthalmic technician. I did refractions in an eye doctor's office - calculating the new prescriptions for eyeglasses. First and only job I ever got fired from. Before that I'd worked in an eye research lab studying lenses and retinas of diabetics, so I knew a little bit about eyes.

Any problem a person came in with, the ophthalmologist would have me do a refraction and write them a prescription for new eyeglasses. There are a lot of things that will affect a person's vision, other than the need for new eyeglasses. A person came in with a blood sugar over 500. I told them we couldn't calculate a prescription when the blood sugar was that high. The prescription wouldn't be accurate and the glasses wouldn't be any good. The doctor got very angry, said "This is a FOR-PROFIT business. We're here to make money." A lady who had completely lost her sight from macular degeneration used to come in. I checked her vision and marked on her chart that she was blind. The doctor made me cross it out - said the lady would be very upset if she learned she was blind, because the lady thought she could see?! Yes - she said that. She wouldn't let me chart that she was blind and scheduled her to come back for a recheck in a month, promised her there was hope that she would not lose her vision. I'm pretty sure that lady got new glasses on a regular basis.

If an exam lasted more than a certain amount of time (I think maybe 30 minutes?) the doctor could charge the insurance company for an "extended" visit. So she chitchatted with the patients, made them think she cared about them. She'd ask them their kids' names, their dogs' names, etc. and write it down. Then the next time the person came in she'd pretend she remembered everything they told her and ask "How's little Nancy doing with Fido's agility classes?" and the person would think she was some wonderful sweet caring angel and start talking away. As soon as the visit went over the right amount of time, the visit would end.

When I put my foot down and refused to participate in the fraud, I was fired. The reason they gave me was that I was "stupid." Seriously.

That ophthalmologist is now the director of a hospital.

Yup - that's how medicine works, and I can't imagine veterinary medicine works much different. I could be wrong. I'm definitely jaded.

ETA - by the way, I did report her to medicare. They didn't even investigate it.

ETA just remembered something else she used to do. There were two types of visits - a cheaper visit just to get checked for new glasses (which EVERYBODY needed of course) and a more expensive visit that also included a medical exam. So any time anybody came in for new glasses I had to dig and dig until I found something that could be billed for a medical exam. I had to ask "do your eyes ever itch? Never? Not even a little? Well, do they ever feel dry? Never??? How about watery? You can't tell me you've never once had watery eyes . . . . " If a person got out of there without needing a medical exam, she became quite unhappy.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

MO_cows said:


> Everybody who wants to diss on vets in general needs to walk a mile in their shoes.* They have to get more education than an MD, then work for a fraction of the money not to mention respect.* I have run into a few vets who I don't consider to be good vets, but you will find that in any group of people - the good, the bad and the ugly.
> 
> We have had the same vet for over 20 years and really like him. He can spay a small kitty and dehorn a 600 pound cow-critter and both are done well. He isn't excessive with his charges, although I think being a customer for so long, he goes easy with the billing for us. He has saved the lives of several of our animals over the years and given us a lot of good advice. He can be very grumpy when you need him after hours but he has never failed to come out or meet us at the clinic, depending if large or small animal emergency.


True, but being a large animal vet is a CHOICE. It's not like the information is kept a secret from them. :shrug: Lord knows it has to be a calling because it's sure not a living~
I know vets of both large and small animals that I wouldn't allow to treat so much as an ingrown toenail and some I trust with my critters' lives.


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## SueMc (Jan 10, 2010)

Golden Affinity said:


> I'm a DVM student, and I drink raw m... :lookout: Perhaps, I should keep my mouth shut.


Our lg animal vet drinks raw milk too. He said he and his family always has.


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## o&itw (Dec 19, 2008)

When my daughter was in high school she worked for a (wonderful) vet her in our community. By the time she went to college, the experience made her change her mind and go into another field.

She said that the vet (who did both small and large animals) spent half of her time going over accounts and trying to get paid. My daughter loved the animal work but was so disgusted that so much time and effort was spent trying to collect that she would never be able to put up with it. Shortly after my daughter went to college the vet sold the clinic and chose to only work on horses out of her own farm.

Apparently, "pets" are only valuable to some people when they need help, but when it comes time to pay for the shots, or spaying , or to bring an animal back to health, they don't think much of the obligations they have incurred. $40-60 bucks isn't all that much, but when you have hundreds of people that don't bother to pay their bill, it adds up.


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## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

I'm afraid that's part of most business. Even when I worked for a title company, I spent time going through unpaid bills and sending out reminders.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

I kept meaning to post this one to this thread.  :cow:

[YOUTUBE]JChwFoCxVC8[/YOUTUBE]


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Interesting how folks will pay a plumber or a furnace repair guy $60 an hour, plus $100 off hour service call, both with no college education, but yelp at a $400 calf pulling.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

And if they don't pay their bills, you take them to Court or have a Collection Agency get to work on them. Husband is self-employed, has had to deal with non-pay customers. Sometimes they smile right in your face and give you a bad check! He does keep a list of folks who are bad to pay, shares it with his friends in the same business. He does do some calling reminders, but has whittled down those kind of folks to almost nothing these days. They know the cost of his services BEFORE he starts work, no excuses for not enough money. Doesn't haggle over prices either, for fear of "losing business" if threatened because he charges higher than other folks. There are ALWAYS plenty more customers out there.

We feel for the customers with the big bill, but Vet's cost of business expenses is not cheap so they have to charge customers accordingly. Hug your large animal Vet, they provide a LOT more service than most small-animal Vets will. Only one small-animal Vet of several locally, doesn't refer you to the Emergency Care Center in the nearby large city when called after-hours. Those folks ask for cash or your Credit Card number as you walk in, keep charging until you leave.


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## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

haypoint said:


> Interesting how folks will pay a plumber or a furnace repair guy $60 an hour, plus $100 off hour service call, both with no college education, but yelp at a $400 calf pulling.


Still I'm pretty sure you can see the difference. Looking at small farm economics, it hurts to put $400 into a $200 calf, even if the vet does have years of training in it. I guess you could look at he maybe saved the cow as well, so that it wouldn't hurt so bad.

In my case when I pulled the calf myself I saved my cow but lost my calf.

I'm not saying the vet isn't worth his pay, just that I understand it not always making good economic sense to pay that much money for an animal that is worth less.


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## o&itw (Dec 19, 2008)

mary said:


> Still I'm pretty sure you can see the difference. Looking at small farm economics, it hurts to put $400 into a $200 calf, even if the vet does have years of training in it. I guess you could look at he maybe saved the cow as well, so that it wouldn't hurt so bad.
> 
> In my case when I pulled the calf myself I saved my cow but lost my calf.
> 
> I'm not saying the vet isn't worth his pay, just that I understand it not always making good economic sense to pay that much money for an animal that is worth less.


I agree with Mary here. The vets are worth the money for what they do... it is our job to determine if it is economical to us. If we are going to spend more money than the animal is worth, we shouldn't do it an complain about the vet bill.

Of course, what an animal is worth my depend on more than its sale value. Some people can afford to make the decision on sentimental grounds, some can't.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

When my wife was doing large animal veterinary care she regularly heard some version of the following comments:

"Gee Doc, don't you think $35 for a farm call is a bit steep?"

"Doc Hargarten never charged for that." (Doc Hargarten died in 1989)

"You charged that much for just pulling a calf." (Well yeah, you called me at 2 a.m and after you tried to pull the calf for the past 12 hours)

The biggest challenge she had was having to collect for previous services before doing today's service. 

Sometimes Large Animal Veterinarians are their own worst enemies. In 2004 I took a yearling bull calf to the vet in Guthrie Center, Iowa to be castrated. We used his chute and other facilities and he had a tech help him. The total bill for removing the bull's testicles was $8! When I asked his response was: "That's what we charge per bull." He forgot that charge was for on-farm castration after a trip call and with multiple bulls to castrate. In reality that charge should have been a lot closer to $75 or $100.

Jim


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## FarmerDavid (Jul 16, 2012)

o&itw said:


> I agree with Mary here. The vets are worth the money for what they do... it is our job to determine if it is economical to us. If we are going to spend more money than the animal is worth, we shouldn't do it an complain about the vet bill.
> 
> Of course, what an animal is worth my depend on more than its sale value. Some people can afford to make the decision on sentimental grounds, some can't.


At that point in time the calf is worth less then the bill but shouldn't you still make money off of him? Profit margins might be tight but that calf still has potential to produce a profit.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

o&itw said:


> I agree with Mary here. The vets are worth the money for what they do... it is our job to determine if it is economical to us. If we are going to spend more money than the animal is worth, we shouldn't do it an complain about the vet bill.
> 
> Of course, what an animal is worth my depend on more than its sale value. Some people can afford to make the decision on sentimental grounds, some can't.


 Seems that when you have a sick animal, you want it well again, no matter what. After the emergency it is easier to evaluate the choice, plus the benefit of hindsight.

The Vet's job evolves. Saving a calf might be worth a $75. farm call, but once there he might need to do something, meds, ointments, etc. Now, does it make sense to pay for a farm call, then deny additional costs? If the Vet acts correctly and the calf dies, anyway, should he get paid for his attempt?
If you have a $100 calf that is dying, do you pay to try to save it or just buy another $100 calf?


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## tonyb (Jul 4, 2011)

o&itw said:


> When my daughter was in high school she worked for a (wonderful) vet her in our community. By the time she went to college, the experience made her change her mind and go into another field.
> 
> She said that the vet (who did both small and large animals) spent half of her time going over accounts and trying to get paid. My daughter loved the animal work but was so disgusted that so much time and effort was spent trying to collect that she would never be able to put up with it. Shortly after my daughter went to college the vet sold the clinic and chose to only work on horses out of her own farm.
> 
> Apparently, "pets" are only valuable to some people when they need help, but when it comes time to pay for the shots, or spaying , or to bring an animal back to health, they don't think much of the obligations they have incurred. $40-60 bucks isn't all that much, but when you have hundreds of people that don't bother to pay their bill, it adds up.


I had similar experience. Vet schools require 90 hours of work in the field before you're admitted to the program. So I rode with our farm vet for two summers, volunteered in a small animal clinic for 6 months, which led to a full-time job in an emergency clinic for 3 years. Loved the work, but decided on another career route because

A) too much fighting to get paid
B) everyone seems to know more about medicine than the vets do


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

o&itw said:


> I agree with Mary here. The vets are worth the money for what they do... it is our job to determine if it is economical to us. If we are going to spend more money than the animal is worth, we shouldn't do it an complain about the vet bill.
> 
> Of course, what an animal is worth my depend on more than its sale value. Some people can afford to make the decision on sentimental grounds, some can't.


I can see your point but I also feel that people may miscalculate the value of an animal. A cow is not just worth her sale value, you have to consider her future production. A lost heifer calf could have brought me revenue for many years to come. 

I also feel that if one is not going to provide vet care for livestock in distress, they should be prepared to put it down and end any suffering immediately. As stewards of our livestock, it is our obligation.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

A good vet is a treasure, and while I do find it *hard* to pay for those emergency vet calls, I never *begrudge* paying it.
But it only makes common sense for any livestock owner to learn and know all they can about their animals and how to handle/prevent health issues/disease/injury. Sometimes the vets not available, and we must do it ourselves. Like the time a 1300 lb Holstien was cold and almost comotose from bleeding out through a ripped milk vein. My vet told me what needed done and our milkhand did the stitching while we all steadied the cow and tried to keep her warm. But if we had had to wait on the vet, the cow would have died, plain and simple. Relying solely on the vets for everything is not smart thinking. Plan ahead and try to have emergency supplies on hand. 
And routine stuff like disbudding, vaccinations, castrations, etc, those things are so easy to learn to do ourselves and sometimes the only way to ensure they get done in a timely fashion during the vets busy season. I personally could simply not afford to breed goats or cattle if I had to get the vet out for routine stuff like the above.
But, we all need to know our limits and when to step back and call in a professional to do the job they were trained for. If we don't know our limits and wait to long to call in help, we let an animal suffer for no reason and many times our waiting to long causes its death.
As much as I hate it, I also think we need to know when the possibility of a quality life is no longer there for a suffering animal, and put that animal down. Too many animals linger on with no real hope of recovery, in real pain while their owners, who can't bear to make that decision, watch. Knowing when to end their suffering is a part of being a responsible livestock owner. Its our job.
I know some of it is fictionalized, but I think every pet/livestock owner should read all the James Herriot vet books. I've been reading them since I was 10 years old. They have helped me understand a lot about animals, vets, etc, over the years. There is a lot of real life in those books, an awful lot. And a lot of those remedies still work too! I'll never forget our first prolapsed uterus on a cow. Called out our vet. While we were waiting on her, I remembered one of the stories in the James Herriot books, and grabbed up a 5 lb bag of white sugar......hey, who knew? It was sitting on the truckseat and the trucks headlights were pointed at Heidi(Brown Swiss cow), when our vet pulled up. She took a look at Heidi, turned to us and said, "This is going to sound strange, but do you have a bag of white sugar?". Um, yeah. Those stories are not all just stories.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> B) everyone seems to know more about medicine than the vets do


Twice I have had cats diagnosed with haemobartonella, a relatively rare blood parasite. The first time I spent $1200 treating for an autoimmune disorder before taking the cat to the state veterinary teaching hospital for a second opinion where it was correctly diagnosed. A $10 course of antibiotics cleared the infection. (The original vet had wanted to do surgery to remove her spleen ... yikes!). 

The second time around was 15 years later with a different cat and a different vet. He presented the same symptoms as the first, and I told the vet about my previous experience and how I suspected H-bart. The vet disagreed and also went the autoimmune-disorder route, and I deferred to her superior wisdom, but when the cat didn't respond and was near death, I insisted we medicate for H-bart even without a proper diagnoses. Guess what? Once again, the doxycycline did the trick.

Now, I don't blame the first vet, because I guess H-bart is a bit tricky to diagnose unless you have a lab onsite (as the state hospital did). Still, I had to wonder why he didn't try a course of antibiotics concurrent with the other treatment "just in case." The second vet, well, I kinda wanted to wring her neck! I almost lost my cat because she wouldn't listen to me. Grrrr.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

ozark_jewels said:


> I absolutely LOVE my vet. She has been out on emergency calls at all hours for me, charges very reasonable prices(too low?!), treats me like I have common sense and animal savvy, gives lots of advise, etc. I do not know WHAT I will do when she retires.
> There are several good vets in the area.
> Now, I have also run across the vets who are NEVER available before 9 and after 5, on weekends or on holidays. The ones who treat me like an idiot. The ones who charge an arm and a leg. The ones who won't listen to me when I'm trying to tell me about MY livestock. Etc.
> There are good vets and great vets. There are also bad vets and terrible vets.
> ...


Sally is the best, and she charges far too little. Her prices are the same as when I was working as a vet tech back in the 80's!

And why is it that there are so many people drinking healthy, unadulterated milk, and live to tell the story? LOL! Some folk just like to stir stuff to see the flies buzz.


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## CathyGo (Apr 26, 2013)

tonyb said:


> B) everyone seems to know more about medicine than the vets do


In too many cases they do know more than the vet.

I'm in a major metro area with dozens of vets and still have to drive 45 minutes to get to a vet that stays up with current research. I'm happy to pay his very fair rates. Not cheap but fair.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mary said:


> I'm not saying the vet isn't worth his pay, just that I understand it not always making good economic sense to pay that much money for an animal that is worth less.


Yep, the vet is indeed worth his pay.... but the question becomes is the critter worth the cost? If your raising animals for profit, it often becomes a question of who do you want to call... the vet or the dead wagon. The vet has to make a living, but if you are going to have to spend 500 bucks to save a 400 dollar calf... you have to decide how long you can stay in business. Sometimes a quarter ounce of lead can save a lot of pain and suffering as well as your business.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

I think it comes down to finding a vet that you are comfortable with and building a relationship with them. Our local large animal vet is about a 10 minute drive from my farm. I won't use him at all. He is a large animal vet that dislikes horses, doesn't want to do farm calls, and wouldn't even talk to me about my goats. He ONLY wants to work on cattle. He wants to charge me $90 just for the farm call and then never explained anything to me. (sorry, but I like to be educated, so I ask questions) About 7 years ago I started using a vet in Kentucky and he is awesome! We've built a great relationship. The first thing he did was give me his cell number and said call anytime day or night. He comes to the farm each spring and gives the dogs their shots, does all of the horses shots/coggins, and this year preg-checked my cattle. Then any other time I have any issues, I just call. For example, had a bottle calf that went off the bottle and was running a fever. I call my vet, we do a "drug-deal" in the parking lots of a gas station 1/2 between my farm and his office, and I give the injections. My vet doesn't really care for goats, but I've become very educated about their care. If I need a prescription drug to treat one of my girls, I call, explain what I need and why, and he gets it to me. Might not work for everybody, but I'm super pleased with my vet!


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## SoldiersRest (Jun 4, 2013)

I've got a great vet. He handles everything from my dogs to my FIL's cattle. He charges $35 for an office visit, and $45 for a farm visit (his office is eight miles from my place) If he makes a scheduled farm trip, he'll vaccinate everything, dogs, horses, donkey,goats, whatever. His tech is knowledgeable, gives great phone advice, and isn't afraid to tell us ALL the options, so we can make an informed decision.

Now, when I lived in the city, it was a different story. The small animal vets, and we tried several over the years, all seemed to be mostly interested in generating billables. Give me my small town general vet any day!


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

IME different vets are good for different things. And sometimes I've been to practices where one vet was good but I wouldn't let the other vets that work there even look at my critters.

We had a great vet right around the corner from us for years....the vet who owned the practice knew I was a vet tech and he and I used to have great conversations about what was new in the veterinary world. He even let me draw my dogs' blood for heartworm checks to keep me in practice  

Well the day came when ee decided he wanted to retire, so he sold the practice to VCA. I can't blame him for doing it - they were probably the highest bidder and I can't blame a man for wanting to make top dollar. But boy oh boy I don't go to that practice now unless I have no other choice. The vets there know NOTHING about repro/breeding, the few times I went in they lectured me about getting my show dogs fixed , and they tried to push unnecessary things on me to inflate the bill. 

Yeah, they took one of my dogs back to draw his blood for his heartworm check, brought him back and said "his nails were too long so we trimmed them!" to which I replied that I dremel my dog's nails on a weekly basis, they were NOT long, and they'd better not be charging me with a nail trim fee. Of course they all stumbled around like they didn't know what to do, and I had to talk to the vet after the vet assistant said she "wasn't sure" they could remove the charge for the nail trim since they'd already done it. I told the vet in no uncertain terms that I hadn't agreed to a nail trim, it was done without my consent, and after some hemming and hawing it got removed from the bill.

Probably 75% of the small animal vet clinics I go to have tried to pull something like this on me. It helps that I have my Vet Tech degree and worked in clinics for years, so I know what is necessary and what isn't. 

I don't begrudge a vet an honest living, and I know that he's got expenses to cover. But I hate being taken advantage of.


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## CathyGo (Apr 26, 2013)

My dog does not leave my sight unless necessary for exactly that reason. A blood draw, shots, etc is not reason enough for my dog to leave my sight.


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