# Bottle Baby with diaria



## JB114 (Oct 3, 2007)

Was just checking to make sure. have a baby goat that the mom rejected born 2/18 and is eating good and isin a playful mood very active but has developed diaria. Was thinking to give probious in the gell form 3cc and wondering how many times per day or is there something better that a feed store or t/s could carry. Thanks


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## Chaty (Apr 4, 2008)

What are you feeding it...if its replacer thats the cause I bet for the scours. Feed whole cows milk or goats milk and it should stop. Are you treating it for cocci? These are mostly the main causes for the scours. The probios will help and sometimes I give more than once a day. Try the cows milk also.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

it is still a bit young for cocci.
what is the temperature? what kind of milk are you feeding?
was the milk too cold? more then usual?


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## Hawkfamily (Jul 13, 2004)

What does the diarrhea look like? Did the baby get any colostrum after birth, do you know?


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## JB114 (Oct 3, 2007)

her temp is 103 which is normal and the poop is light brown mushy watery. after her birth i did get home a couple hrs after the fact from work and made sure she did nurse from momma for 10 to 20 minutes. have had her on save a kid suplement since then. she is very active jumps and plays and talks especially if we go into another room she runs thrue out the rooms hollering and looks for us. did put on baby gaterade from wollyworld for the electrolights (plain no artificial flavering) and give that to her to keep up the fluids. as far as the milk replacer we do warm the milk and do the squirt on hand method for a temp ck before giving it. t/s and a friend from the local feed store even mentioned pepto bezmo. vet did say to give it a try still did not work. after 4 cc that was it she was not having anymore of that stuff lol. was anyone else having trouble getting on this morning guess system was down.


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## Hawkfamily (Jul 13, 2004)

I think you're doing what you can. It wouldn't hurt at all to give probios. 
I had an incidence this week of (what I suspect was) cryptosporidiosis and the lamb just up and died on Tuesday. 

I found this as a decent guide to scours:

*Dark, loose Feces, not quite scours-- Sometimes bloody, usually seen in well fed kids under 12 weeks old: It could be: Clostridium perfringens type D also called Enterotoxemia

*Black and tarry, yellow to greenish watery OR Grey foul smelling Scours-- Sometimes with blood or tissue- high fever accompanies. Babies to adults: It could be: Salmonellosis

*Bright Yellow profuse Scours-- Usually watery. In babies under a week old- no fever or sub normal temp: It could be:E Coli

*Watery or foamy; pasty, dark or bloody Scours-- Foul smell, looks as though contains unclotted blood and sometimes tissue and mucus. Effecting kids between 4 weeks and 5 months old with the highest incidence being between 4 & 7 weeks of age. : It could be: Coccidiosis

*Watery and yellowish Scours - With mucus or blood at times, low grade fever, caused by oocysts. Effects 1 to 4 week old kids usually (they are susceptible until they become functional ruminants): It could be:Cryptosporidiosis

*White or light yellow Scours--Acute. Sour odor, can look curdled. Usually affects newborns to 4 weeks old, but most commonly seen in babies younger than 2 weeks old. : Foul smell, looks as though it contains unclotted blood and sometimes tissue and mucus. Milk Scoursfrom too much milk or milk replacer.

*Pasty, gas bubbles-dark Scours- - Foul smelling with gas bubbles in it. Only goats over 18 months old.. It could be: Johnes Disease (Paratuberculosis)

*Bright green Scours-- Acid smell, watery to pasty. Too rich pasture or hay. Any age that eats hay or pasture. Feed Scours


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I would stop the replacer and gatorade ASAP. Then I would switch to warm whole cows milk if you don't have any goats milk. You can sometimes buy slightly outdated cows milk for animal feed to help with the cost.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

the problem is the milk replacer. why do you not feed goat milk from her dam?
if the dam has not enough milk, whole milk from the store would be a much better choice.
no water or gatorate or what ever goes in the mouth from a little kid like this. if fluids are necessary and she is not drinking anymore, lactated ringer needs to be given as injection sc (under the skin).


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

The kid will either make it or fail to thrive. I don't know anybody who raises really good replacements they keep with milk replacers. Milk replacers are made from soy or whey, neither is milk. If you continue down the path of more things liquid orally, which in real life a baby goat nursing mom would never be near a water source that young, more and more fluid in the tummy and intestines, the kid scours more and more. 

Diarrhea on it's own isn't what is going to kill or make for an unthrifty kid because diarrhea is scour at this point not illness. It's that being liquid the poop, which in a healthy kid with a curd formed from whole milk, your kid has this liquid speeding through it's intestine and it's not giving it enough time to absorb the stuff in the milk replacer. 

In a normal kid given whole milk, their stomach acids and saliva mixes with the milk, just like adding vinegar or any acids to milk, makes a curd. The 'whey' then is absorbed the nutrients with it, then in the large intestine this soft curd is further dehydrated as the body pulls more and more nutritents out of it, by the time it's in the small intesine it is firmer, more nutrients and fluids are absorbed and you have the pelleted poop you should.

Break this cycle with soy, with whey, with too much formula, with too much fluids, with water, electrolytes or anything else orally that makes a kid not form a curd (think of making cheese with all this stuff in your milk) and the kid fails to thrive because it's not abosrbing calories or anything else from this replacer.

Even a kid on goatmilk, you add a bunch of stuff, or feed a cold bottle when it's not used to it, you have scours.

Once you can get your head around the basics of how the small ruminant works, really a single stomached animal until eating solid food and then builds the other chambers of the stomach to make them work...you will see how replacers have no place on the farm being used on infant ruminants. Older yes, you can wean from whole milk to them with no problems because they have the rumen bugs then to eat soy or other byproducts like this.

Read your directions exactly, mix the formula if you won't take the kid off it, exactly, and don't give her one more sip than the directions tell you. You really starve formula fed kids so they being eating grain and hay faster, the directions prove this statement on their label.

Dairies feed alot of replace for obvious reasons, their mortality rates are huge. With one bottle kid use whole milk from the grocery store. Vicki


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## JB114 (Oct 3, 2007)

well i guess there has to atleast one in the crowd lol. yes have been mixing and giving per instructions to the tee on the replacer:flame:. but will try whole milk and see how that does thanks for the input everyone. i can milk the momma straight to the bottle then give to baby also. we dont usually milk our goats.


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## Hawkfamily (Jul 13, 2004)

My milk replacer is made with milk, not soy or whey.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Hawkfamily can you post the ingredient list and what the name of this is? We can purchase powdered goatsmilk for about 4 times what grocery store milk is  Even then it's not all goatmilk, or even whole milk. Vicki


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## deetu (Dec 19, 2004)

Vicki had told me once to add a little corn syrup to the whole milk when a kid was loose. I have since always added a couple of drops of corn syrup and a little probiotics to the milk with each feeding and always had kids that thrived.


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## JKB07 (Mar 6, 2008)

Yea... you dont need to "try" the whole milk... you need to switch to whole milk. 


Hawkfamily, I would be interested in what replacer you are using as well. If its milk replacer, well it not made with just milk.... that would defeat the purpose of it being replacer.... 


Justin


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## Hawkfamily (Jul 13, 2004)

The company is Canadian Agri-Blend. They make all-milk replacers for just about every animal you can think of... lol
I only have a bag of lamb milk replacer here right now (they do sell a goat milk specific one though, too.) I'm currently feeding a lamb and 2 goats, and am just using the same formula (although slightly less powder for the goats as they dont' need quite as much fat as the lamb does.)
Here's the analysis of the goat replacer - I can't find an online ingredients list, interestingly enough, though.....: 

22-22-20 HF
KID GOAT MILK REPLACER
A high quality 100% all milk high protein and high fat milk replacer for kid goats.
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Crude Protein (min.) ..............................................................22.0%
Crude Protein from Milk Sources (min.) ................................22.0%
Crude Fat (min.) .....................................................................20.0%
Crude Fibre (max)...................................................................0.25%
Calcium (act.) .........................................................................0.80%
Phosphorus (act.) ..................................................................0.70%
Sodium (act.) ..........................................................................0.50%
Selenium ........................................................................0.3 MG/KG
Vitamin A (min.) ..........................................................40,000 IU/KG
Vitamin D3 (min.) ..........................................................3,000 IU/KG
Vitamin E (min.) ...............................................................300 IU/KG

Jodi


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

JB114 said:


> well i guess there has to atleast one in the crowd lol. yes have been mixing and giving per instructions to the tee on the replacer:flame:. but will try whole milk and see how that does thanks for the input everyone. i can milk the momma straight to the bottle then give to baby also. we dont usually milk our goats.


Why not let the kid drink direct?


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

Hawkfamily said:


> The company is Canadian Agri-Blend. They make all-milk replacers for just about every animal you can think of... lol
> I only have a bag of lamb milk replacer here right now (they do sell a goat milk specific one though, too.) I'm currently feeding a lamb and 2 goats, and am just using the same formula (although slightly less powder for the goats as they dont' need quite as much fat as the lamb does.)
> Here's the analysis of the goat replacer - I can't find an online ingredients list, interestingly enough, though.....:
> 
> ...



how do you know it is not made with whey as one component? i have not seen one milk replacer that is made out of real milk


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## Hawkfamily (Jul 13, 2004)

I'm interpreting their statement of "100% all milk high protein and high fat milk replacer" as meaning it is a milk protein. Is this not right?
But, they don't post their ingredient list on the bags - it says to check their website for full ingredient lists, but they don't appear to post their ingredient lists there either, when I went looking today. So, without seeing actual ingredients, I don't know what it is truly made from.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Well since protein nor fat in milk is that high it has to contain something else. Whey is from milk so it can be called milk on the percentage tag, just not on the ingredeient tag. And the only thing giving you that high of protein is cottonseed meal (not usually made into milk products  fish and feather meal (fish milk???) or soybean...which can be made into milk. So it's doubtful but there are alot better quality products offered in Canada and England than the US so maybe it is. Vicki


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Fish meal is dried oily fish (menhaden, etc) and feather meal is the feathers collected at the slaughtering plants. Both are high in protein but the feather meal may not be digestible depending on the bacteria in the gut so it may be just protein on paper.


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## Hawkfamily (Jul 13, 2004)

fishhead said:


> Fish meal is dried oily fish (menhaden, etc) and feather meal is the feathers collected at the slaughtering plants. Both are high in protein but the feather meal may not be digestible depending on the bacteria in the gut so it may be just protein on paper.


What do you mean, fishhead? 'it may be just protein on paper'?


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

I was being sarcastic in my post  but yes just because your meat goat pellet says 16% protein if the protein is fish and feathermeal it may not be absorbed as protein into a ruminant, so your really paying for a 16% feed and it's really only a 10%. It's the whole melamine thing, it's a fake protein that isn't even a protein usable by dogs so how could it be protein for another single stomached animal....the children they killed and made ill. Vicki


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## Jubel (May 13, 2008)

I hope your baby is doing better. As everyone said, it's probably the milk replacement that is causing the problem. You can feed baby goats half milk replacement and half goats milk. I have done this successfully many times. In fact, I'm doing it right now.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I also hope your baby is still hanging in there. I would never use any of the milk replacer out there no matter what the label says. I would let it drink from the dam. Is there a reason you don't want it to nurse from the momma? If you can't get momma's milk whole milk from the store or from a dairy farmer is always the better replacement.


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