# When LGDs Attack



## barnbilder

A friend shared this on FB.

Below are the details of what happened to us yesterday here at $%#@! Farms. The accompanying photos were taken today, after a shower. I apologize if the photos are "too much." I certainly have no intention of posting the earlier photos.
This story might be too long, but that&#8217;s on purpose &#8211; it&#8217;s part of my critical incident stress debriefing process, so please bear with me:
I was feeding the critters after having repaired some fencing, and drove the Polaris over by MawMaw&#8217;s house in order to feed the cows and the few pigs housed in that area. As I approached, I noticed that Duke, our 1.5 year old 120 lb. Anatolian Shepherd dog, [EDIT: according to our vet, who handled the disposal, Duke weighed "every bit of 140 lbs"] had taken possession of a newly born piglet that had wandered out from beneath the electrified fence, and I noticed that the piglet was still alive. I parked the Polaris, left it running, and exited to approach Duke. I knew better than to just march up to him, so from a distance of 12-15 feet, I firmly scolded him telling him &#8220;No,&#8221; and directing him to come away from the piglet. He was growling, but also wagging his tail and his ears were in a submissive position.
Before I continue, let me tell you a little more about Duke. Duke looked to me for guidance, and was extremely obedient, especially to me. [I've edited that previous sentence to remove the term "alpha," the implications of which I apparently did not understand. It seems to have implied that I exerted "dominance" over him and was harsh toward him. Nothing of the sort. All I meant was that Duke seemed to look at me as his owner. I don't know how to better state it.] If he was about to slip out of the front gate, all I had to do was say &#8220;No,&#8221; and he would return. He was also a very affectionate animal, who would roll onto his back often, inviting a belly rub. He walked right next to me most of the time, so close that I could rest my hand on his head while walking. When Duke was eating dog food, I could pet him all about his head and neck and handle his food, without a hint of protest from him. [I have since learned that there are experts in the field who consider what I described in the previous sentence as "bullying" my dog. That makes no sense to me, as I never TOOK food from him, never reached into his bowl just to show him I could, or anything like that. On the contrary, when I would reach into his bowl, I would take some of his food into my hand, and feed it to him and he would gently eat it from my hand. It also breaks my heart to know that Duke may very well have interpreted my actions as bullying.] Several friends and acquaintances that have interacted with Duke have expressed shock that he would behave in any other way. In other words, his behavior yesterday was unusual and unexpected [edited to add: I am beginning to believe that there were signals and cues coming from Duke that I grossly misinterpreted and misunderstood], and I believe a result of what I&#8217;m describing as a &#8220;perfect storm&#8221; of circumstances, which storm includes at least two monumental errors on my part. That&#8217;s not to excuse him &#8211; he should never have attacked me no matter the circumstances &#8211; my examination of my errors is just a part of the process of deciphering not only what happened, exactly, but also WHY it happened.
I continued to express disapproval and encourage him to come away from the piglet and toward me, which he eventually did. He was in a submissive posture as he approached me, though he was still growling slightly, and he was wagging his tail as I backed away from the area in which the piglet was located, so it was &#8220;so far, so good&#8221; at that point. My first crucial mistake was that I didn&#8217;t put enough distance between the piglet and us. I knew better than that.
My second crucial mistake, and definitely the more serious mistake of the two, was that for some unknown reason I squatted down in front of him to praise him for his obedience. That was an enormous blunder, especially in light of the fact that almost at the same exact time, another of the dogs approached us. I&#8217;m pretty sure it was &#8220;Blue,&#8221; the one puppy of Duke&#8217;s that we kept...a beautiful blue-eyed fella that is a cross between an Anatolian Shepherd and a Border Collie. Whichever dog it was, it's presence in close proximity perhaps sealed my fate. I knew immediately, as I squatted there in front of Duke, that I was in serious trouble. I knew that I needed to stand up, but I also knew that as soon as I did, the fight would be on. I was right.
I stood as smoothly and slowly as I could without doing it too slowly, and as soon as I was upright, Duke attacked. He first bit my left hand, through thick insulated work gloves (I know where he bit me first and last, but the order of the bites between those two are a blur to me). I tried to restrain him as I walked backward, I suppose looking for an escape (I don&#8217;t know, really, it just happened that I was backing up). Thankfully, due to the grace and mercy of God, I managed to back up beyond the running Polaris, before I stumbled and fell to the ground. I immediately knew that I was in even more serious trouble being on the ground beneath such a huge and powerful dog, but I was thankful I hadn&#8217;t fallen next to the Polaris, because had that happened, it&#8217;s a certainty that neither Patti nor Cory would&#8217;ve heard my screams &#8211; the sound of the Polaris would&#8217;ve swallowed my voice completely.
As Duke and I wrestled on the ground, I continually called for Patti as loud as I could for what seemed to be half an hour (it was probably a minute or two), and with no response from the house, I was on the verge of losing any hope of rescue. That was a deeply disheartening moment: I knew I couldn&#8217;t quit trying to restrain him, but I was at the point despair, &#8220;knowing,&#8221; I thought, that no one was coming to my aid and that I would eventually lose enough strength or stamina or blood that I would have nothing left with which to fend off the dog, and my family would later find my lifeless body in the yard. I&#8217;m sorry to sound so dramatic. I promise you those were the thoughts with which I was wrestling, in addition to having to wrestle with the dog. I prayed that the Lord would intervene, give me strength, calm the dog, protect Patti&#8217;s and Cory&#8217;s heart were I to succumb. It was surreal. I found myself pleading with the dog, actually asking him to &#8220;Please stop. Please stop, Duke. It&#8217;s Daddy.&#8221; That seems so silly now, but at the time, it felt perfectly reasonable.
I used to love the song &#8220;He&#8217;s an on-time God,&#8221; especially when sung by our sweet friend Becky. He was certainly an on-time God yesterday, as just when I was in danger of losing my resolve, when I found myself trying to reason with and plead with a dog, I saw Cory and Patti coming around the corner of the house toward me, and I could see that Cory was armed with a handgun. Hope returned.
Allow me to digress here to explain what was happening inside the house as I was in the midst of my struggle with Duke. Patti&#8217;s mom has developed another urinary tract infection, and is being moved to a &#8220;swing bed&#8221; again for a while, to help her recover and rehabilitate. Patti knew that yesterday before Cory had to leave for work, he needed to help me load Maw Maw&#8217;s electric lift chair into my truck to bring to the facility. As Cory was watching a show on the TV, Patti said something to the effect of &#8220;let me go find your Daddy and get him to go ahead and move the truck over to Mama&#8217;s house so y&#8217;all can load the chair.&#8221; When she opened the door to walk outside, they both heard me. Thank God. 
On his way out the door, Cory grabbed my Glock, which was on the kitchen table. &#8220;Why was it on the kitchen table,&#8221; you ask? I&#8217;m typically armed at all times. I had come inside a little earlier that morning in order to use the restroom, and I removed the weapon from its holster and laid it on the table, fully intending to pick it up on my way out the door. I failed to do so, which was a terrible thing, as the damage I was suffering could&#8217;ve been avoided had I armed myself as I exited the residence. [Edit: I'm no longer convinced that I would've successfully deployed the weapon. I now believe that it was the Hand of Providence that caused me to place the weapon on the table for the first time ever, and to leave it there in plain view for Cory to grab it on the way out the door. Incidentally, Cory initially thought he was coming to dispatch an injured pig. Sometime during his run out the door, Patti either corrected him, or he realized what was happening as my situation came into focus for him. Neither Patti nor Cory can recall for certain.]
I felt a real sense of relief as I saw Cory running toward me, but I knew I was still in the midst of battle. At some point during the struggle, Duke bit me on top of the head, and had bitten my right ear. I thought he&#8217;d torn my ear completely off, but he hadn&#8217;t. I was so convinced he had, though, that once the fight was over, I later instructed Patti to have Cory look for my ear. That&#8217;s something a son should never have to hear from his father. 
Also at about the same time, I was horrified that Fly, our Border Collie, had joined Duke in the attack and had bitten my left ear and the left side of my face. She was later dispatched by a dear friend who agreed to do that for us and to deal with Duke&#8217;s remains, a portion of which was to be sent off to ensure there was no sign of rabies. 
As I looked to Cory, now perhaps 10-15 feet away from us, I told him to &#8220;shoot him now.&#8221; Having turned my attention to Cory, even though only for a second, I guess I loosened my grip on Duke and he took what I&#8217;m pretty sure was his final bite, right in the middle of my face, getting my upper lip and nose. He ripped my nose in half, and the right half was fairly detached from my face. I could see it with my right eye. It may sound odd to think that such thoughts enter the mind in the midst of such a crisis, but I remember thinking &#8220;that looks so strange,&#8221; considering the normal symmetry of the left eye view and the right eye view of one&#8217;s own nose.
Immediately upon my telling Cory to shoot, he did so with expert precision, and he continued to do so until the threat was neutralized. Fly fled as soon as the first round was fired, thankfully.
[Edit: I later learned about the thought processes through which Cory progressed, in mere milliseconds of time: he thought to himself immediately following my instruction to shoot, "Dad's left leg is in my line of fire, behind Duke. I'm very likely to shoot my father in the leg - but that will not kill him...Duke will. BAM, he fired the first shot. Again, Cory processed those thoughts in a blink of an eye, like a seasoned combat veteran. I couldn't be prouder of him, or more thankful for him. In fact, I later told him that if he had hit me, I'd be no less proud because he did as I asked him to do.]
Cory fired three shots, hitting the dog in vital areas with all three rounds, while the dog was on top of his father actively attacking. Amazingly, after the first round struck home, Duke recoiled, then immediately lunged back toward my face and head - his adrenaline was pumping, too...assuming dogs have adrenal glands. This was no &#8220;hit the paper silhouette that&#8217;s hanging perfectly still.&#8221; Cory&#8217;s response and reaction was flawless. It was heroic, and there is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that he saved my life. If it hadn&#8217;t been for his quick and precise action, I believe with a high level of certainty that I would be dead today. As a pleasant aside, it was very gratifying to hear Cory say last night that he instantly remembered lessons we&#8217;d taught him, such as &#8220;in a crisis situation, obey without question or hesitation.&#8221; He did just that (PS &#8211; situations like this one are exactly WHY we taught our kids that lesson). He also said he remembered my saying &#8220;shoot until the threat is neutralized.&#8221; He did that, too, like a seasoned pro with ice water in his veins.
Cory&#8217;s command of the situation didn&#8217;t stop there: as soon as Duke was dead and off of me, Cory grabbed me by the arm and helped me to my feet saying &#8220;we have to go NOW.&#8221; As he was helping me, he yelled to Patti &#8220;Go get your keys.&#8221;
I could not possibly be more proud or thankful for my baby boy.
As Cory was leading me to the car (Patti&#8217;s brand new heretofore blood-free car!), Cory once again took charge by grabbing my iPhone, dialing 911, handing my phone to Patti and telling her "just talk." Patti looked at Cory and said "THE GATE," meaning that the gate at the end of our long driveway had to be opened. Cory, who's adrenaline had to have been pumping as much as mine, sprinted to the gate and stood there with it wide open as we passed right through. Patti spoke with the wonderful and amazing County Sheriff&#8217;s dispatcher as the dispatcher sent an ambulance to meet us on the way. By the way, Patti could pass a police driving course right this minute. She demonstrated driving skills that have been dormant due to lack of need, but they were manifest on this day, and she was a pro. We met the ambulance at the funeral home on &^()^ (and yes, we recognized the humorous irony of such rendezvous point under the circumstances), and as soon as the medics got a look at my face, they notified dispatch to send a helicopter to KDMC in order to airlift me to Jackson. I had been obscuring my face from Patti because I didn't want her to see, unaware that she'd already seen my displaced nose.
I certainly would&#8217;ve preferred that my first copter ride had been under different circumstances, but I had the best seat in the house, right up front in the &#8220;shotgun&#8221; area, facing forward. I had a great view the whole way. I felt a little faint at one point, and later learned that my blood pressure had dropped to 70/40 I think. By the way, I never lost consciousness throughout the whole experience, though I did lose an alarming amount of blood.
We arrived at UMMC about 25 minutes or so after takeoff, and to make an already long story a little bit shorter, my visit resulted in two surgeons filling my face and head with stitches for approximately 6 hours. 
My family has been overwhelmed with the outreach we&#8217;ve received from so many. The love and concern that has been expressed has meant so much to us, and we cannot thank you sufficiently.
I am expected to recover fully, and to look &#8220;mostly&#8221; like I did before the incident. Although I requested from the surgeons &#8220;early Tom Selleck,&#8221; I just had to settle for &#8220;late Me.&#8221;







;-)
Though I am, of course, saddened about having to kill Duke and Fly in order to protect our family, I am a man who is blessed beyond measure, and quite happy today, knowing that in an instant I could've lost one or both eyes, one or both ears, or my very life.
I may edit this piece as I remember things, and I&#8217;m happy to answer questions in the comments below



I know there are a lot of experts that would probably have some insight. Breeding this and training that. There is no disputing that some of these breeds are very "hard" dogs, they need a firm and experienced person to deal with them. They are the "in" thing to have on the homestead, but know that they are not toys.


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## Darren

Thanks for posting that.


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## farmrbrown

Yikes!
That was a little scary to read but thanks for posting it. The scary part was his descriptive history of his dog and their relationship........a little too close for comfort. 
I think he assessed his mistakes very accurately though and every part of the story is a good education.


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## MDKatie

farmrbrown said:


> Yikes!
> That was a little scary to read but thanks for posting it. The scary part was his descriptive history of his dog and their relationship........a little too close for comfort.
> I think he assessed his mistakes very accurately though and every part of the story is a good education.


What did you think was too close for comfort? And what mistakes do you think he made?


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## farmrbrown

MDKatie said:


> What did you think was too close for comfort? And what mistakes do you think he made?


For one, my big, sweet 100 lb + male is a Anatoly/Dogo cross. He's obedient and submissive but when we play, can hit like a pro linebacker, lol.
I've always taught my dogs not to be food aggressive with me or anyone else and well disciplined, a MUST for any breed but especially the large ones.
Rubbing his belly, feeding him treats, walking thru the woods, etc. as that man did was like reading a personal journal.
That's what I meant by "too close for comfort".

His mistakes, he detailed well, I thought.......

* My first crucial mistake was that I didnât put enough distance between the piglet and us. I knew better than that.
My second crucial mistake, and definitely the more serious mistake of the two, was that for some unknown reason I squatted down in front of him to praise him for his obedience. That was an enormous blunder, especially in light of the fact that almost at the same exact time, another of the dogs approached us. *


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## kalmara

Thanks for posting. I've owned/bred/trained large dogs for over 40yrs & yes circumstances were "a perfect storm" . Thank goodness a positive ending for you. You have every right to be very proud of your son and wife, hero's in my eyes. May you continue to heal. And you know what ? not everyone needs to look like Tom Selleck


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## MDKatie

farmrbrown said:


> * My first crucial mistake was that I didnât put enough distance between the piglet and us. I knew better than that.
> My second crucial mistake, and definitely the more serious mistake of the two, was that for some unknown reason I squatted down in front of him to praise him for his obedience. That was an enormous blunder, especially in light of the fact that almost at the same exact time, another of the dogs approached us. *


Hmm. Is it normal to have to be so careful around LGDs? I know several people with Pyrs and I don't think any of them would have to even think about where they are in relation to the dog and another animal, or would have to even consider being "careful" in their actions as to not provoke their dog.

I get that you want LGDs to be protective of their flock, but I also figured the human owner is ALWAYS in charge and should never have to even worry about being attacked by their own dog. I get they're not pets, but if I ever were to own an LGD, I'd want one that isn't human aggressive. Barking at strangers, ok. Attacking the owner? Not ok.


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## Forcast

LGD is that large guard dog?
I have put down one dog in all my years for being aggressive and she was a black lab. Vet said she thought it was related to a vaccination the dog had a week before the attack. I cant understand the n eed for a dog you have to be so careful around.


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## farmrbrown

MDKatie said:


> Hmm. Is it normal to have to be so careful around LGDs? I know several people with Pyrs and I don't think any of them would have to even think about where they are in relation to the dog and another animal, or would have to even consider being "careful" in their actions as to not provoke their dog.
> 
> I get that you want LGDs to be protective of their flock, but I also figured the human owner is ALWAYS in charge and should never have to even worry about being attacked by their own dog. I get they're not pets, but if I ever were to own an LGD, I'd want one that isn't human aggressive. Barking at strangers, ok. Attacking the owner? Not ok.


Well, it's like this.
I would treat an LGD the same way as a firearm.
It's a useful tool, but a deadly one. Never treat it casually as if it is something that is harmless.
My dad used to say things to me that sounded preposterous like, "People ALWAYS get shot accidentally with an unloaded gun."
He was big on firearm safety.
Naturally I tried to correct him and say that the gun HAD to be loaded.
He winked and looked down and said, "That's right, but what do they always say?............."
'I swear I thought it wasn't loaded!'
It may be only a one in a million chance (this situation was a "perfect storm") but if you are the unlucky recipient of that chance, it really doesn't matter what happens to the other million people.

There are too many unknowns to this story we may never know. But dogs read body language and have instincts that are always "on". I reread the story again and realized there were 3 dogs on the scene, a father, mother and son - the core of a pack.
That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can't be ignored.

Again, it was a terrible fluke, but I thanked him for posting it as a cautionary tale. Be aware, always.


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## barnbilder

Pack protection can take precedence over flock protection. Other dogs can serve as catalysts. The firearms analogy is a very good one, everything is good until you run into the wrong catalyst. 

The Pyrenees aren't quite as bad, some of them have years and generations of showring and city living separating them from real protection. They work fine, the biggest thing around to protect from in most instances is a coyote, all they need to do is be bigger than food, pee and bark. Even so, this type of behavior is possible. I have seen pyrs that were ticking time bombs. Owners completely oblivious.

The anatolians are a little less domesticated. Their relatives, the Kangals, are used in their home country to fight each other in pitbull fashion. Their ancestors chased down and attacked opposing forces, attacked and helped bring down large game like horses for hunters. Pyrs, Anatolians, and most other LGDs are Molossers. They share ancestry with other notable breeds like pitbulls, mastiffs, and rottweilers. They are capable of the same behavior. Most people that have such breeds are aware of the constant dominance struggle that it involves. People with LGDs, in some instances, don't really seem to be aware of the consequences of ignoring just what they have on their hands.


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## wiscto

I find most of the comments on this story (here and elsewhere) to be going to one sensational viewpoint or another. There are thousands of people with LGDs out there, I follow them on facebook and other places, it's practically a hobby at this point. Most of them seem to have no great difficulty maintaining their place at the top of the hierarchy, and even the household children get dominant LGDs laying down and submitting at their feet...Kangals included. The dogs want nothing more than to protect their people along with their flock. Because their people are a part of them, because the people socialized them like they should any dog.

So... Yea they need to be taken seriously, but that's why I don't think this was a fluke. This guy claims the dog submitted, never showed food dominance, never did this, never did that. Bottom line is...he got bit by his own Border Collie too. That is strange. I just firmly believe there is a lot more to this story. If that Anatolian had really considered him "daddy" at any point, then the border collie should have as well, but not only did the Anatolian get into a dominance fight with him over a food source, the Border Collie tried to set him in line as well. IMO, he was never in charge of any of these dogs, and they didn't feel like he was in charge and supporting them. I've seen the exact same thing in the city/suburbs with other serious dogs. Two of my friends bought Rotts from a litter years ago, I made one of them give her puppy away when he was about 5 months old. That puppy was already the boss. He definitely wasn't going to be the boss in his next house, and I never worried about him after we dropped him off and I met the new guy. He had a female Doberman and had lost his bully a year earlier. His dogs were obedient. 

And that gives me a lot of questions.... What is the Border Collie doing out running around? Was it with him? Did any of the dogs accompany him while he was out on the Polaris? Did any of these dogs even like him? Why is he breeding Anatolians and Border Collies, by the way, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It was either an accidental breeding, or it was an intentional breeding that would produce a lot of variables. I just think he set himself up for this from the very beginning.


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## Torch

Paragraphs are our friends. If you reformat it, I will read it. All the best....


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## Maura

I think the border collie (I think it is a cross) belongs to someone else. He was at Maw Maws, so it was probably her dog. It was loose, why wouldn&#8217;t it be loose?

I think Duke was watching out for the piglet. I dog that size would have just chewed once and swallowed. He may have been trying to put the piglet back with it&#8217;s mother. Dogs will sometimes do that.

He describes the dog giving submissive signals and tail wagging. Yet, he continues to berate the dog. This is very confusing. He should have said &#8220;leave it&#8221;, or whatever command he uses, and once Duke dropped the piglet, praise him for obeying. 

Although we are reading kneeling before/beside the dog as submissive, we may be wrong. We don&#8217;t have a picture of the event. If he put his arms or hands on or around Duke&#8217;s neck this could have been taken as an aggressive move.

I&#8217;d like to also point out that there is a rest deal of variability between LGDs. Great Pyrs bark. Anatolians attack.


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## Forcast

Cant even think how much that attack would have cost this man if it happened to someone else. Postman, kid next door ect


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## wiscto

Maura said:


> I think the border collie (I think it is a cross) belongs to someone else. He was at Maw Maws, so it was probably her dog. It was loose, why wouldn&#8217;t it be loose?
> 
> I think Duke was watching out for the piglet. I dog that size would have just chewed once and swallowed. He may have been trying to put the piglet back with it&#8217;s mother. Dogs will sometimes do that.
> 
> He describes the dog giving submissive signals and tail wagging. Yet, he continues to berate the dog. This is very confusing. He should have said &#8220;leave it&#8221;, or whatever command he uses, and once Duke dropped the piglet, praise him for obeying.
> 
> Although we are reading kneeling before/beside the dog as submissive, we may be wrong. We don&#8217;t have a picture of the event. If he put his arms or hands on or around Duke&#8217;s neck this could have been taken as an aggressive move.
> 
> I&#8217;d like to also point out that there is a rest deal of variability between LGDs. Great Pyrs bark. Anatolians attack.


You mentioned that about the border collie last time and I never re-read it, but having read it again, I don't agree. He said the border collie was "ours."


> Also at about the same time, I was horrified that Fly, *our Border Collie*, had joined Duke in the attack and had bitten my left ear and the left side of my face.


Couple other things I'm noticing this time around now that you're mentioning it. Tail wagging is not a one size fits all expression. There was just a study done showing that reading a tail wag depends a lot on which way the tail wags most, but that's pretty hard to tell in my opinion, so I refuse to rely on it at all. Also... Ears in a submissive position. I've never bothered reading the ears, either, not by themselves, and definitely not combined with just the tail. I mean which way does he think is the submissive position? They pin their ears back when they're stressed, they pin their ears back when they're about to attack, they pin their ears back when they're scared. Sometimes mine pins her ears back, or I guess you could say droops them heavily (it looks the same), when she's so overwhelmed by lovey-cuddleness that she just can't stand it anymore and has to come bury her face my sweatshirt and get her ears scratched. So... 

I wasn't there, I don't know the guy, I just choose for now to believe that he completely misunderstood his dogs from the beginning. Even if you're right and the dog was just protecting the piglet, I have to wonder how the dog decided that this owner he was totally obedient to (according to the owner) was such a threat to the piglet. I mean he said..."growling but..." Growling but nothing. I can get more from a growl than any other single factor. My dog makes a couple sounds that are close to growls when she's excited, they're not growls. This dog was probably very clearly growling. At which point, imo, he should have changed plans entirely. I mean also... He knows better than to walk straight at his dog? Really? That is not an obedient dog who looked to him for guidance then. I would expect any dog that is obedient to me to get up out of my way regardless of what it's doing, and if it doesn't, I don't have a lot of use for that dog to be honest. If I'm worried about walking straight up on a dog, it's because it isn't my dog.


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## Jlynnp

I saw the pictures and they were scary. I have been attacked by one of my own dogs and it is one of the most horrific things that have happened to me. Now I have been bitten several times many by scared shelter dogs and a few times by dogs who were in training to be working K9's. 

My dog was a Belgian Malinois that I had had since he was 7 weeks old, we had trained together foe several years and he was a highly qualified personal protection dog and had three live bites to his credit, each of them while protecting me and our property. On this occasion he broke away from me, ignored repeated commands, shocks from his e-collar and killed a baby goat. i managed to get the goat away from him and I thought things were fine until he turned and grabbed me putting me on the ground. He was intent on hurting me but I kept screaming and yelling commands at him. All of a sudden he got this strange look on his face and just stopped turning around and going into his kennel run. Sadly I had to put him down the next day as it was to much of a risk having him around the neighbors and their grand kids.


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## motdaugrnds

Goodness Barnbilder, I'm so sorry you were hurt...and hurt so badly by your own dogs. I do hope you recover fully.

I must add I'm a bit confused by several things you said and did....as well as what was occurring with the piglet. It is my understanding you had that Anatolian guarding your pigs and the little piglet had managed somehow to get away from where it needed to be. This tells me an LGD worth its salt was out there protecting the piglet and deserved praise for that. What is confusing to me is why you were walking backward and apparently enticing that dog to leave the piglet. Am I wrong about the LGD guarding the piglet? Did you actually think it was harming that piglet and was, therefore, attempting to get it away from the little one? (This really makes little sense to me as backing up can be seen by dogs as an act of fear and, thereby, encourages a prey drive toward what is viewed as a possible predator.) What you have described as your initial interaction with that Anatolian sounds like an owner who does not understand his dog and even guard dogs in general. Sorry I don't mean this to sound so harsh. Not being there I can only respond to what you have said.

Then your kneeling and praising him is confusing to me. I suspect your understanding of that dog's growling and general behavior was not clear to you. Your seeing some of your own mistakes is a good thing. Just a bit late to deter what occurred. 

I am wondering if your "energy" was something your dogs were leery about; and I'm wondering this because of what you have said at the bottom of your post, i.e. "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." -James Mattis Did those protective dogs see you as a predator at that particular time; and if so why? If not, why the attack?

LGDs have great qualities; yet they do need to be understood and respected. I've only had one LGD (Bulgarian Karakachan) and she "expects" respect...as do I from her. However, that respect is NOT a "demand" meaning one does not "control" the other. What I've learned from my LGD is that her behavior around what she guards is something she takes quite seriously. Likewise, her confidence in herself to fullfil the role I've given her is GROUNDED on what she has learned I "expect" of her. What has worked well for me is to maintain a CALM/ASSERTIVE demeanor with her at all times. (Hoping this bit of information helps should you decide to get another LGD.)


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## barnbilder

motdaugrnds said:


> Goodness Barnbilder, I'm so sorry you were hurt...and hurt so badly by your own dogs. I do hope you recover fully.
> 
> I must add I'm a bit confused by several things you said and did....as well as what was occurring with the piglet. It is my understanding you had that Anatolian guarding your pigs and the little piglet had managed somehow to get away from where it needed to be. This tells me an LGD worth its salt was out there protecting the piglet and deserved praise for that. What is confusing to me is why you were walking backward and apparently enticing that dog to leave the piglet. Am I wrong about the LGD guarding the piglet? Did you actually think it was harming that piglet and was, therefore, attempting to get it away from the little one? (This really makes little sense to me as backing up can be seen by dogs as an act of fear and, thereby, encourages a prey drive toward what is viewed as a possible predator.) What you have described as your initial interaction with that Anatolian sounds like an owner who does not understand his dog and even guard dogs in general. Sorry I don't mean this to sound so harsh. Not being there I can only respond to what you have said.
> 
> Then your kneeling and praising him is confusing to me. I suspect your understanding of that dog's growling and general behavior was not clear to you. Your seeing some of your own mistakes is a good thing. Just a bit late to deter what occurred.
> 
> I am wondering if your "energy" was something your dogs were leery about; and I'm wondering this because of what you have said at the bottom of your post, i.e. "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." -James Mattis Did those protective dogs see you as a predator at that particular time; and if so why? If not, why the attack?
> 
> LGDs have great qualities; yet they do need to be understood and respected. I've only had one LGD (Bulgarian Karakachan) and she "expects" respect...as do I from her. However, that respect is NOT a "demand" meaning one does not "control" the other. What I've learned from my LGD is that her behavior around what she guards is something she takes quite seriously. Likewise, her confidence in herself to fullfil the role I've given her is GROUNDED on what she has learned I "expect" of her. What has worked well for me is to maintain a CALM/ASSERTIVE demeanor with her at all times. (Hoping this bit of information helps should you decide to get another LGD.)


Um, yeah. This didn't happen to me. I saw this on another social media medium, and posted it here. Though maybe it was valuable information for people that might be in a position to recreate the event.


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## barnbilder

Torch said:


> Paragraphs are our friends. If you reformat it, I will read it. All the best....


Took every ounce of motivation I had just to copy and paste it. Reformatting would have crossed the line.


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## barnbilder

wiscto said:


> You mentioned that about the border collie last time and I never re-read it, but having read it again, I don't agree. He said the border collie was "ours."
> 
> 
> Couple other things I'm noticing this time around now that you're mentioning it. Tail wagging is not a one size fits all expression. There was just a study done showing that reading a tail wag depends a lot on which way the tail wags most, but that's pretty hard to tell in my opinion, so I refuse to rely on it at all. Also... Ears in a submissive position. I've never bothered reading the ears, either, not by themselves, and definitely not combined with just the tail. I mean which way does he think is the submissive position? They pin their ears back when they're stressed, they pin their ears back when they're about to attack, they pin their ears back when they're scared. Sometimes mine pins her ears back, or I guess you could say droops them heavily (it looks the same), when she's so overwhelmed by lovey-cuddleness that she just can't stand it anymore and has to come bury her face my sweatshirt and get her ears scratched. So...
> 
> I wasn't there, I don't know the guy, I just choose for now to believe that he completely misunderstood his dogs from the beginning. Even if you're right and the dog was just protecting the piglet, I have to wonder how the dog decided that this owner he was totally obedient to (according to the owner) was such a threat to the piglet. I mean he said..."growling but..." Growling but nothing. I can get more from a growl than any other single factor. My dog makes a couple sounds that are close to growls when she's excited, they're not growls. This dog was probably very clearly growling. At which point, imo, he should have changed plans entirely. I mean also... He knows better than to walk straight at his dog? Really? That is not an obedient dog who looked to him for guidance then. I would expect any dog that is obedient to me to get up out of my way regardless of what it's doing, and if it doesn't, I don't have a lot of use for that dog to be honest. If I'm worried about walking straight up on a dog, it's because it isn't my dog.


I picked up on the growling thing. I've had "hard" dogs before. That is one of my pet peeves. I'm not going to tolerate being growled at, certainly not when it is my own dog, on my own place. I feel like this guy misread a lot of clear warning signs leading up to this event. I see people treat these things like they are just livestock or something. Get one or two, dump them in a pen with a few goats, if they have puppies, great, cash jackpot. Working parents. One perfect storm away from a really bad situation.


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## farmrbrown

barnbilder said:


> I picked up on the growling thing. I've had "hard" dogs before. That is one of my pet peeves. I'm not going to tolerate being growled at, certainly not when it is my own dog, on my own place. I feel like this guy misread a lot of clear warning signs leading up to this event. I see people treat these things like they are just livestock or something. Get one or two, dump them in a pen with a few goats, if they have puppies, great, cash jackpot. Working parents. One perfect storm away from a really bad situation.


I can see that too.
Not knowing everything, I'm willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Having said he immediately recognized his mistakes, leads me to believe he would know the difference between right and wrong.
I've also known a few incidents where a moment of distraction and unexpected instigation resulted in a bad outcome.

That's why the firearm analogy.
Guns aren't for everybody and anybody that has one (or a guard dog) needs to be attentive even IF "nothing ever happens".


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## StockDogLovr

I have Australian Shepherds, and when two or more are together, they are empowered. My male and female together about killed a coyote, one working each end. My male is an a-hole with strange male dogs and I've seen my female jump in to back him up when he picked a fight in the past. Not something I'm happy about and control for when friends come over with their dogs. I see the Border Collie joining in to back up her partner. 

Also, the "submissive" behavior with tail wagging was likely not that but active guarding of the piglet. Dogs will low wag and crouch when stimulated/conflicted/aroused. The growling along with that points towards the dog not behaving submissively but aroused and on the threshold of aggression. Why did these dogs perceive this "owner" that way? Very strange. The relationship seems not to have been there. I don't have LGDs, but my herding dogs are my partners and never challenge me, want to work for me. Something was very broken in the relationship between this man and his dogs.


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## Maura

The consensus seems to be that this man did not know how to read his own dog. Many of us cannot read dog language. As Wistco mentioned, we are brought up to believe that a tail wag means a dog is happy, but it could mean several things. I know I was taught that a dog with his ears laid back will bite. In actuality, most dogs bite out of fear and a dog with his ears laid back is showing submission and/or fear. So, if you show aggression the dog may run from you, but it may bite in self defense. A dog with his ears proudly forward is showing confidence, and he may bite, too.

As for protecting the piglet, I didn&#8217;t think the dog was protecting the piglet from the hostility of the man. However, he may have been resource guarding. Still, he did not kill the piglet so the man misread the dog from the word "go".


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## farmrbrown

There were definitely a few mistakes made and unfortunately the price paid by all was pretty high.
I read this 3 or 4 times now and pick up new details each time.
This time, I got the impression that the Anatolian was protecting the piglet more than looking at it as food, but we'll never know for sure.
If he WAS just doing his job and the owner scolded him with a "No", along with an accusatory and dissatisfied attitude, the resulting confusion by the dog is understandable.
Misreading body language and whatever history they may have had resulted in an accumulation of errors. 
Attacking him was however, inexcusable.


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## motdaugrnds

Ooooops!


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## Allen W

I think the guy was clueless about his dogs. Tail wagging and growling is a sign of aggressiveness not submission.

If he was in control of the dog he wouldn't felt the need to call it away from the piglet, he would have simply went and got the pig.


PS

After thinking about it, I believe the tail wagging and growling is a challenging behavior.

I'm afraid some people used to dealing with smaller dogs aren't fully prepared for dealing with a larger, more independent minded dog.


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## Maura

Dogs do growl as part of their language. They growl when they play fight. Some dogs bark as an invitation to play. Irish setters are noted for vast vocal expressions, as well as smiling (showing teeth). However, when taken into consideration the breed of dog, I agree that growling should be taken seriously. You don&#8217;t continue to provoke a growling dog.


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## TedH71

I've seen GP pups be truly aggressive with each other and with people they didn't know at 6 weeks of age! I refused to even consider getting those. I have one friend who had the best GP female he ever had. He didn't have to fence his property even though it was fenced. They just didn't fence the front acreage off so she stayed on the property and lived there for 9 years before dying of old age. They, then got, a male who grew into this truly gigantic GP male that would roam and he was aggressive with strangers be it dog/coyote/human. He was the only dog I've ever met that truly scared me. He was that big. My friend's uncle was taking care of the property while his sister (my friend's mom) was in France looking for antique jewelry/watches to buy cheap (apparently they're cheap in Europe because everyone has them so she buys them cheap then turns around and sells them for more money in America). One day, the uncle had to tell the dog to get back in the property and the dog reacted badly. Went crazy and bit the uncle so badly that he had to literally crawl back in the house and get a rifle and shoot the dog dead. The dog was maybe a year old. After that, I decided I didn't want to get a GP if at all!


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## wiscto

Allen W said:


> I think the guy was clueless about his dogs. Tail wagging and growling is a sign of aggressiveness not submission.
> 
> If he was in control of the dog he wouldn't felt the need to call it away from the piglet, he would have simply went and got the pig.
> 
> 
> PS
> 
> After thinking about it, I believe the tail wagging and growling is a challenging behavior.
> 
> I'm afraid some people used to dealing with smaller dogs aren't fully prepared for dealing with a larger, more independent minded dog.


I agree.



TedH71 said:


> I've seen GP pups be truly aggressive with each other and with people they didn't know at 6 weeks of age! I refused to even consider getting those. I have one friend who had the best GP female he ever had. He didn't have to fence his property even though it was fenced. They just didn't fence the front acreage off so she stayed on the property and lived there for 9 years before dying of old age. They, then got, a male who grew into this truly gigantic GP male that would roam and he was aggressive with strangers be it dog/coyote/human. He was the only dog I've ever met that truly scared me. He was that big. My friend's uncle was taking care of the property while his sister (my friend's mom) was in France looking for antique jewelry/watches to buy cheap (apparently they're cheap in Europe because everyone has them so she buys them cheap then turns around and sells them for more money in America). One day, the uncle had to tell the dog to get back in the property and the dog reacted badly. Went crazy and bit the uncle so badly that he had to literally crawl back in the house and get a rifle and shoot the dog dead. The dog was maybe a year old. After that, I decided I didn't want to get a GP if at all!


Hmmm. I'm sure that dog was hard headed, but mistakes were made. The uncle had not bonded with that dog and established himself. He had no business giving commands. The young dog felt threatened and lashed out. Be honest if you can, if you know all the details. I'm betting he approached the dog and ordered it back on the property, maybe even tried to grab his collar. NEVER GONNA HAPPEN with my dog. Even my family, who have bonded with my dog and established themselves, know that they are to bribe my dog with hardboiled eggs and treats if she gets out, and if she shows no interest in that they are to follow and continue the bribery. And they're all willing to do that, or I wouldn't even leave my dog. And she's a big sweetheart, wouldn't bite unless she felt like my wife, myself, or herself were in imminent danger.

Just consider this. What you're saying about Great Pyrenees is a complete 180 from what the vast majority of people who own and/or work with Great Pyrenees say.


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## oceantoad

The three100% GPs that I had were total people dogs. Always wanted attention. My Anatolian and my 5/8 Anatolian and 3/8 GP want nothing to do with people. They bark at them, but if people are in the feild, they move to the tree line. The GP of my friend is also a people dog.


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## aoconnor1

I have a large male GP, absolutely sweetest dog ever. He is a big love. Never one time have I had an issue with him in the 8 years I've had him. He is completely obedient, loves my grand kids, is good with my ranch dogs and my small house dog as well as my cats. He protects his chicken flock and my mini horses with no aggression toward either.


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## poppy

Like people, dogs sometimes just snap. A good guard dog understands the owner is in charge always. You'll never know why it really happened. Could easily have been a mental or health issue with the dog at that age. I know a guy who had a Rottweiler as a house dog. He raised her from a pup and she was the sweetest dog ever. She loved people and liked for small kids to ride on her back. She was 8 years old when she snapped for no apparent reason. He was sitting in his chair witching tv and casually cleaning his carry pistol as usual and she was laying across the room. Suddenly she just stood up, stared at him, and began growling. She didn't respond to any commands and started snarling at him. He was scared. He hurried and snapped his pistol together and shot her in the living room when she started snarling and walking toward him. He loved that dog and always took her with him in his truck. He actually cried just telling me about it.


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## TedH71

Nah, at age 8, she was probably starting to develop early stages of dementia or it could be possibly she had a brain tumor. I doubt she was autopsied.


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## Maura

The first thing to go with a dog is hearing, then peripheral vision. This is why you can come up from behind talking nice to the dog and he&#8217;ll turn and snap at you when you get to his head or reach to pet him. I&#8217;ll agree with Ted about age induced dementia. Eight is old for a Rottweiler.

My border collie is really well trained and very obedient. Then, he started ignoring me when he was fifty feet away, voice or whistle. Now, he ignores me from five feet. He&#8217;s loosing his hearing. I let him loose at home, but when we go anywhere he has to be on a leash because he has no recall. Vet put him on ginkgo biloba for dementia.


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## tree-farmer

Maura said:


> Irish setters are noted for vast vocal expressions, as well as smiling (showing teeth).


Our GP/Kangal smiles when she's happy to see us when we get home from work or something. Or when she gets in trouble, maybe cuz she knows I can't stay mad when she does that.
We had a german shepherd/malamute cross that would do that too. And my friend has a cathoula cross that will do it on command if she's in the mood.
My favourite dog expression.

But reading your dog's expression, ear, tail wag etc. kind of varies from dog to dog or at least breed and some are more expressive than others.


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## Lady89

lots of mistakes were made this person miss read the dog from the beginning and paid a heavy price for it, so he is by no means blameless. But it is also an important reminder of the fact that we sometimes forget we basically have wolves guarding our livestock and our lives, and even though we forget dogs do not, they understand what they are and still have all the instincts of their wild ancestors. It is important to always know the score especially with the "hard" breeds. even if it is a one out of a million thing, knowing when you are and are not in control and acting accordingly can be the difference between life and death.


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## bluemoonluck

I agree that nobody will ever know what really happened....there's no video and the man who is telling the story was in a high-stress situation which can alter your memory of an event. My heart goes out to him no matter what the situation was.

I've worked in an animal shelter & as a licensed vet tech in vet clinics, and I've been breeding and showing dogs for a dozen years now. I still read things wrong sometimes, and I "speak" pretty fluent dog. 

Different breeds tend to have their quirks, and something what's normal for that breed can mean something totally different in another breed. For example, my first dog as an adult was an AmStaff, and he liked to make this bark/growl/howl sound when he was happy. My daughter has a totally unrelated AmStaff and he does the same thing, and at dog shows it's pretty common to hear the AmStaffs happily vocalizing this way. Now if a German Shepherd or Rottie made that sound, I'd be looking for the nearest exit, and rightfully so! 

I can't tell you how many "knowledgeable" dog people think that every dog with a wagging tail is a happy dog . Or in the case of this story, how someone can misinterpret guarding behavior for submissive behavior. Any dog who is in the throes of a high prey drive moment can do something that is totally out of character for that dog on a normal day.

Many people don't realize that a dog will redirect it's aggression onto a person/animal within their grasp if they get worked up by something they can't get to. Example: Dog is fighting with another dog thru a fence. Dog's housemate dog comes up to see what the big fuss is about, dog 1 sees dog 2 approach, turns & attacks dog 2 even though they're good friends. OR the dog's owner comes out and tries to drag their dog back into the house, and the dog turns and bites their human. The biting dog here can get along great with his human and the other dog that lives with him, but he's in a state of high agitation and not thinking clearly and that leads him to act in ways he normally wouldn't.

LGD's are bred to go after threats to their flock; they're not supposed to be passive dogs. But they *are* supposed to be able to differentiate between flock and foe, and to apply the aggression only to the threats to their flock. All dogs can have an off day, and some dogs just aren't cut out for the job to begin with. And really, the way we breed and raise dogs in the USA these days, we've pushed a lot of the instincts out of our working dogs in an effort to make them pets. We tolerate a lot of behaviors in our working dogs that 100 years ago would be cause for culling that dog from service. The lines are blurred, and that doesn't help figure out what's going on when stuff like this happens


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## Allen W

"And really, the way we breed and raise dogs in the USA these days, we've pushed a lot of the instincts out of our working dogs in an effort to make them pets. We tolerate a lot of behaviors in our working dogs that 100 years ago would be cause for culling that dog from service."

The old timer breeders knew what they were doing and worked toward that goal culling as needed. Today that dedication to breeding for a working purpose is lacking or misdirected by currant trends.


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## Morledzep

farmrbrown said:


> Misreading body language and whatever history they may have had resulted in an accumulation of errors.
> Attacking him was however, inexcusable.


I don't think it was inexcusable. A dog should NEVER be prohibited from protecting itself. I also don't think the dog was his, I think the dog acted appropriately for the circumstances and the attitude the man exhibited toward him. 

I used to keep wolves and wolfdogs, body language is EVERYTHING, for the human and the dog. If you don't understand what the dog (wolf) is telling you, you're going to get hurt, and that is the TRUTH. I loved my wolves, they communicated honestly and easily with me. Living with them was more like a partnership than a owner/pet relationship, they expected certain things of me, and they understood what I expected of them. 

Because of my relationship with my wolves I now view my pet companion dogs differently, I respect them and their needs more than I did before. And I let them communicate with me instead of just giving them orders. I pay more attention to their body language and their expressions. And I never force them to do something that makes them uncomfortable. 

I wish I knew how to teach what my wolves taught me, there would be far more happy dogs that don't want to run away, and dog bites from ALL breeds would be at an all-time low. Not to mention I could probably make some money.. :idea:


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## farmrbrown

Morledzep said:


> I don't think it was inexcusable. A dog should NEVER be prohibited from protecting itself. I also don't think the dog was his, I think the dog acted appropriately for the circumstances and the attitude the man exhibited toward him.



You're right and I get what you're saying. I was projecting from my own experience with large guard dogs in that, *I* could never imagine one of mine having an excuse to attack me.
I raise them with firm discipline, but also lots of love.
The only time I had one growl and snap at me, a roommate's GF had been teasing her at dinnertime without my knowledge.
I corrected BOTH bitches immediately and it never happened again.

I think you're right again about it NOT being HIS own dog, but his mother's, next door. I'm sure he was around him all the time but not quite the same as the owner......... good catch.
:goodjob:



> All I meant was that Duke seemed to look at me as his owner.





> I used to keep wolves and wolfdogs, body language is EVERYTHING, for the human and the dog. If you don't understand what the dog (wolf) is telling you, you're going to get hurt, and that is the TRUTH. I loved my wolves, they communicated honestly and easily with me. Living with them was more like a partnership than a owner/pet relationship, they expected certain things of me, and they understood what I expected of them.
> 
> Because of my relationship with my wolves I now view my pet companion dogs differently, I respect them and their needs more than I did before. And I let them communicate with me instead of just giving them orders. I pay more attention to their body language and their expressions. And I never force them to do something that makes them uncomfortable.
> 
> I wish I knew how to teach what my wolves taught me, there would be far more happy dogs that don't want to run away, and dog bites from ALL breeds would be at an all-time low. Not to mention I could probably make some money.. :idea:


Yep.


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## MainehomesteadR

StockDogLovr said:


> I don't have LGDs, but my herding dogs are my partners and never challenge me, want to work for me. Something was very broken in the relationship between this man and his dogs.


And therein lies the difference--- herding dogs are bred far differently than LGD's. 

I have had several Anatolian Shepherds, I much prefer them to Great Pyrenese, but they are not for everyone. When an Anatolian 'turns on' -- it's very hard to turn off that attack, especially if there is any doubt in the dog's mind as to who is really the leader of the pack. Anatolians also respond to adrenalin, it's tough to be in that situation and NOT have your adrenalin kick in. And with the second dog coming in to reinforce him... 

I am sorry that this happened. Sorrier still that it was an Anatolian. 

My current Anatolian is by far the best I've had-- I can't help but think it's due in part to my gaining experience with previous Anatolians. But if you don't have a strong personality this is not the breed for you. 

I had a male that killed 3 coyotes in less than a minute -- raised the hairs on my arms let me tell you.... they are strong and bred for a purpose.


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## muleskinner2

I raise Anatolian Shepherds and use them to guard my goats. If one of my dogs attacks a goat or attacks me they are shot dead on the spot.

Muleskinner2


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## muleskinner2

I raise Anatolian Shepherds. There a lot of coyotes where I live, without my LGD my goats would be dead within a week. If one of my dogs attacks a goat or attacks me they are shot dead on the spot.

Muleskinner2


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## muleskinner2

muleskinner2 said:


> I raise Anatolian Shepherds. There a lot of coyotes where I live, without my LGD my goats would be dead within a week. If one of my dogs attacks a goat or attacks me they are shot dead on the spot.
> 
> Muleskinner2


Sorry for the double post.


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