# Family Farms ?



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

How do you define a family farm? 
What regulations that they would otherwise be subject to as a business should family fatms be exempt from? And why?


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

my idea of a family farm is where the farmer wakes up in the morning and goes outside and hops on his tractor or goes into the barn and milks his cows.
opposite of the corporate farms where the owner gets up at 7 AM so he can make his 8 AM tee time..


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

My idea of a family farm is that the family does all the work around the farm for no pay other than what you make if you sell a product


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Multi generational is one definition.
Mutiple ownership, ie dad and son, brother and sister, is another.
The term carries about the same weight as "homestead".
You could call it the Hash House and I doubt the IRS cares as long as you check the appropriate boxes.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> What regulations that they would otherwise be subject to *as a business* should family fatms be exempt from? And why?


They shouldn't be exempt from any laws if they operate as a business.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

The corporations are called cooperate citizens yet they do not need to follow the same rules as the rest of us citizens.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

If anyone engaged in the operation has family members that depend on money earned from the endeavor, it is a family farm. If it is city people that have IT jobs that they drive to, clogging highways and burning precious fossil fuels while enjoying their luxurious rural lifestyle, and they have organic whatever that the stay at home mom hocks at the flea market/farmers market, it is not a farm unless it turns a profit, and most wouldn't if examined closely by an actual accountant. However, by calling the operation a farm, an accountant can gain them significant financial advantages. Just as many tax loopholes and pencil magic tricks get used on "the homestead" (if not more) as corporate farms. Most dreaded corporate farms are actually worked by family farmers, who own the land and maybe the buildings, get up and fork a tractor and go out and work the land. Because they have kept up with the times instead of clueless people's romantic ideas, they are farming in today's world, in today's market, maybe successfully, maybe not, but they are there. A lot of people would shut them down, because their beans end up on a truck that says (insert mega corporation name here). But they are still family farmers, perhaps more so than the people selling organic chicken eggs for four dollars a dozen at the farmers market that they raised for six dollars a dozen, but it doesn't matter because of jobs in town.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> my idea of a family farm is where the farmer wakes up in the morning and goes outside and hops on his tractor or goes into the barn and milks his cows.
> opposite of the corporate farms where the *owner gets up at 7 AM so he can make his 8 AM tee time*..


That sounds like a good gig

8 is a little early though


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Would more of you like to address what kind of exemptions family farmers should get?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> With more of you like to address what kind of exemptions family farmers should get?


They should be able to sell directly off the farm.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

barnbilder said:


> If anyone engaged in the operation has family members that depend on money earned from the endeavor, it is a family farm. If it is city people that have IT jobs that they drive to, clogging highways and burning precious fossil fuels while enjoying their luxurious rural lifestyle, and they have organic whatever that the stay at home mom hocks at the flea market/farmers market, it is not a farm unless it turns a profit, and most wouldn't if examined closely by an actual accountant. However, by calling the operation a farm, an accountant can gain them significant financial advantages. Just as many tax loopholes and pencil magic tricks get used on "the homestead" (if not more) as corporate farms. Most dreaded corporate farms are actually worked by family farmers, who own the land and maybe the buildings, get up and fork a tractor and go out and work the land. Because they have kept up with the times instead of clueless people's romantic ideas, they are farming in today's world, in today's market, maybe successfully, maybe not, but they are there. A lot of people would shut them down, because their beans end up on a truck that says (insert mega corporation name here). But they are still family farmers, perhaps more so than the people selling organic chicken eggs for four dollars a dozen at the farmers market that they raised for six dollars a dozen, but it doesn't matter because of jobs in town.



WORD. Seth


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> With more of you like to address what kind of exemptions family farmers should get?



It'd be easier if you'd just let us know what you are trolling for. Seth


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Seth said:


> It'd be easier if you'd just let us know what you are trolling for. Seth


Trolling ? I believe you are confusing my motivations with yours. 
I was quite clear in my original post what I was looking for and that is what I am still looking for the reason I am looking for that is understanding of how this particular population feels about those particular questions .


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Would more of you like to address what kind of exemptions family farmers should get?


I think BFF did. They should get the same exemptions as everyone else. They may not be paid on labor but they will on income minus expenses.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> How do you define a family farm?
> What regulations that they would otherwise be subject to as a business should family fatms be exempt from? And why?


Family farm is a business so why should it be exempt from any business rules


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Would more of you like to address what kind of exemptions family farmers should get?


Why should they get any?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> I was quite clear in my original post what I was looking for and that is what I am still looking for the reason I am looking for that is understanding of how this particular population feels about those particular questions .


It appears you're looking for someone to agree with your idea that they should be entitled to something based on biology alone.

It would also appear you're the only one who thinks that they should.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I'm not aware of any laws I am exempted from because of my farm status. I do know of several I must comply with that my non farming kinfolk dont have.

ETA: oops, I take that back, as a farmer I can do my own plumbing without a license. Still has to pass inspection but I can do my own work.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

I am not a farmer, but I can do my own plumbing , too.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> I am not a farmer, but I can do my own plumbing , too.


Each state has its own laws. In my state I would not be able to legally.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Perhaps it is different in other states but in Illinois farmers are exempt from traffic regulations of height width length and weight 
Farm machinery does not have to be licensed even though used on the roadways 
Farmers are also exempt from paying Workmen’s Comp. and unemployment 
Farmers are mostly exempt from real estate taxes 
Farmers are exempt from minimum wage and overtime laws 
I’m sure there’s others but those come to mind pretty quickly. 
Are other states not like that?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Ag exemption for farm or range land is just reduced property tax, not a complete exemption. 

Missouri doesn’t have ag exemptions. 

Farm fuel is tax free. Some ag products (fertilizer, cattle feed, meds) are tax free. 

I don’t think the appellation “family farm” is definable now. Too many variables.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I’ve noticed that when people talk about saving the family farm they usually have in mind either grandma and grandpa or one family Making a small living close to the land
It seems like politicians talk like that but then write laws or multi million dollar corporate farms
And of course it’s the middle ground looks the most iffy the guy with $1 million worth of property enclosed in a corporate structure is he a family farm? 
Is it a family farm when the owner sits on the porch and watches one hired man do all the work is it different if there are 10 hired man?
What about the corporate farm owned by one guy who manages it yet hires hundreds of laborers to work in the field for short periods of time ?
Family farm is a buzzword here on this site and in the media and in politics I just wondered what those with the Homestead mindset actually thought a family farm was.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Many many multi generational family farms have been incorporated. For tax management, to aid in succession planning, etc. It would be nice if more farms could sell direct to public. In the case of milk/meat, have an information brochure with liability release for customers to learn and accept the risks, and have at it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> ETA: oops, I take that back, as a farmer I can do my own plumbing without a license. Still has to pass inspection but I can do my own work.


I think anyone can do that as long as it passes inspection.
At least that's the way it is here too.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Family farm is a buzzword here on this site and in the media and in politics I just wondered what those with the Homestead mindset actually thought a family farm was.


There is no single definition aside from "a farm owned by a family".
It's only a "buzzword" if you try to make it one.


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## ticndig (Sep 7, 2014)

.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Exemptions? None - zip - nada! As a matter of fact, since you're living on the business grounds, maybe you should have to pay rent? 

I believe in a flat tax with no exemptions.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

If a family wishes to farm, and keep up in this day and age, they better darn well be approaching it with the mindset of a billion dollar corporation, and not with the intent of making a small meager living. A small meager living does not leave much room for error. If they can't be a billion dollar corporation, they should probably plan on doing business with one at some point. Most should probably plan on some side income from off farm sources, if they are not in the billion dollar corporation category.

There are people out there that give the impression that they are small family farmers, selling to niche markets, and making a living off of their land. On closer inspection, they have hordes of interns doing their labor, they sell some over priced stuff at farmers markets, that still wouldn't get them into solid profit if they counted all of their actual expenses and losses. But they make their living doing the seminar circuit, and truth known, they are no diferent than the tycoons they demonize.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Family farm - mom and dad post hippie back-to-landers. Raising farm hands till they leave for college. Garden. Bunnies, chickens, goats, a few cattle. 

Downsizing the empty nest. One of the offspring moves home. 

Rinse. Repeat.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Family farm - mom and dad post hippie back-to-landers. Raising farm hands till they leave for college. Garden. Bunnies, chickens, goats, a few cattle.
> 
> Downsizing the empty nest. One of the offspring moves home.
> 
> Rinse. Repeat.


That isn't a farm, that's a luxury living arrangement. And the reason cows don't bring enough for actual farms to stay solvent.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Ask THEM if it’s a farm. It’s a dearly loved farm. 

Passing judgment on someone else’s dream is arrogant and tacky.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

All I know about mine is if I don't get some rain the cows will be going to the sale barn...


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Been there, done that. It rained two weeks later. 

Broke my heart.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Why should they get any?


I hear folks complain that the family farm is going away. They bemoan the collapse of the various villages that were supported by the farming community. They are saddened by the sight in every rural area of vacant barns, vacant houses, each one an unwanted byproduct of the valuable fields that surround them.

Many show the scars of the decade long struggle that existed before the battle was lost. Patched or neglected when incomes could not maintain.

Each family farm has fought the battle. Some sought direct farm sales. Most others became dependent on off the farm employment.

Oddly, those that admire, perhaps cherish, the family farm, often move to the country, driving up land prices, land values and property taxes, lessening the ability of the family farm of surviving.

There are many laws designed to protect and encourage. To encourage home ownership and children, income taxes provide deductions. But the family farm is too small of a group to matter, so no protections are provided.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Been there, done that. It rained two weeks later.
> 
> Broke my heart.


I'm feeding hay and protein tubs right now...


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

barnbilder said:


> If a family wishes to farm, and keep up in this day and age, they better darn well be approaching it with the mindset of a billion dollar corporation, and not with the intent of making a small meager living. A small meager living does not leave much room for error. If they can't be a billion dollar corporation, they should probably plan on doing business with one at some point. Most should probably plan on some side income from off farm sources, if they are not in the billion dollar corporation category.
> 
> There are people out there that give the impression that they are small family farmers, selling to niche markets, and making a living off of their land. On closer inspection, they have hordes of interns doing their labor, they sell some over priced stuff at farmers markets, that still wouldn't get them into solid profit if they counted all of their actual expenses and losses. But they make their living doing the seminar circuit, and truth known, they are no diferent than the tycoons they demonize.


I wish more people understood this


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

haypoint said:


> But the family farm is too small of a group to matter, so *no protections* are provided.


If they operate as a business, they get all the same "protections" as any other business.

There is no real definition for "family farm" aside from "farm owned by a family".

"Family farms" are going away because younger people don't want to farm if they can work indoors and make more money, and they can get rich quick by selling off the land they inherit.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> If they operate as a business, they get all the same "protections" as any other business.
> 
> There is no real definition for "family farm" aside from "farm owned by a family".
> 
> "Family farms" are going away because younger people don't want to farm if they can work indoors and make more money, and they can get rich quick by selling off the land they inherit.


Not all of them desire indoor work. Some are very connected to their agricultural heritage. But the ones that are any good at all with math know better than farming. Hard to grab that torch when you come to the realization that your calves are going to sell at the same market as all the hippy's calves. The hippy is going to raise the same amount year after year, no matter how cheap they get. He just needs the calves to pay the ridiculously cheap property taxes and buy some diesel for the tractor he needs for plowing his half mile driveway, so his wife can get to her professor gig in town. He doesn't need to make a profit. He already made a profit when he sold the land he inherited that happened to be in a place that land was valuable, because it was closer to industries and infrastructure that weren't directly agriculture related.

In today's agriculture environment, "passing the torch" looks strangely more like, tying a cinder block around neck and pushing off boat. Without subdividing, and selling hobby farms to hippies, while the idea is en vogue, trying to farm the "family farm" is pretty much a recipe for either emotional or financial ruin, usually both.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I don’t think the small cattle breeders like myself in the late decades of the last century ran enough calves through the auction ring to impact beef prices.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

First cleanup.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

the small family farms are disappearing daily.
we live 10 miles away from any town in any direction.
small acreage. 8 acres.
our neighbor is a 3 generation family farm. He is in his 80's and the grandchildren are getting married and having babies..
a few years back he told me that he was renting 
14 farms that no longer farmed.
between our house and the largest town, there are only 3 or 4 active farms on either of the two ways into town..
On the other side of town is the same story.
when we drive over there, I point out houses and 
sub developments and say, I worked on that farm,
I made hay on that place, I used to hunt where that golf course is, etc.
the only thing I fear is when the small farms are gone, the industrial farms will have us over a barrel
he who controls the food will control the world.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> Perhaps it is different in other states but in Illinois farmers are exempt from traffic regulations of height width length and weight
> Farm machinery does not have to be licensed even though used on the roadways
> Farmers are also exempt from paying Workmen’s Comp. and unemployment
> Farmers are mostly exempt from real estate taxes
> ...


Our farmers are exempt from height, length and width on higways, only if they can prove they have no safer way to access their land. No off road equipment, including our county graders and road construction equipment require licensing so I can't see why a farmer should have to do any differently. 

They must pay workers comp or prove they have another comparable form of private insurance. Their WCB rates are incredibly high because they are grouped with forestry and logging, which makes their assessment very high. 

They have to pay sales tax on land and everything else they purchase but likely get a refund at the end of the year, just like any other business. Property taxes on farm land are fairly low but the actual farm yardsite, is taxed as acreage property and very high.

They are not exempt from minimum wage and overtime laws, which compounded with incredibly high WCB assessments, has put them in a position where they are unable to hire as many part time/seasonal workers as they have in the past. They can bank employee overtime hours and I know one person who works through seeding, haying and harvest and lives comfortably through the winter on her banked hours. 

They do get a fuel tax exemption but the fuel is dyed and if they are caught using it in non farm registered vehicles, the fines are heavy. They are exempt from our carbon tax on their fuel as well but only on bulk fuel and not on associated carbon tax affixed to other goods they purchase. Fertilizer is a big issue for them because they carbon tax is factored in at several levels so they've seen a significant increase in input costs. 

Farmers are exempt from costly commercial vehicle registration but are expected to maintain their trucks to the same level of safety required of commercial trucks and will be impounded if they are found unsafe or hauling commercially. Their trucks must cross scales and participate in any commercial vehicle roadside inspections, maintain log books and they can't legally haul anything but their own product. 

Trucking companies hauling farm equipment, may purchase a $25 annual permit that also exempts them from OD restrictions that would require pilot cars or additional over weight/over height permits, a significant savings seldom passed on to farm customers.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I don’t think the small cattle breeders like myself in the late decades of the last century ran enough calves through the auction ring to impact beef prices.


I never took a single animal to an auction.

I sold all of them from home, and never had to load them up and haul them somewhere they could pick up who knows what disease.

I suspect the costs for raising the animals were quite similar no matter how ownership of the farms is structured. They still need the same feeds, medications and supplements.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I have sold calves both ways - private sale and through the ring. Calves going to feed lots and slaughter sell through the auction houses in my area. 

If you are selling for breeding stock, I agree with you about not running them through auction pens.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

wr said:


> Our farmers are exempt from height, length and width on higways, only if they can prove they have no safer way to access their land. No off road equipment, including our county graders and road construction equipment require licensing so I can't see why a farmer should have to do any differently.
> 
> They must pay workers comp or prove they have another comparable form of private insurance. Their WCB rates are incredibly high because they are grouped with forestry and logging, which makes their assessment very high.
> 
> ...


What is WCB ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

HDRider said:


> I wish more people understood this


I think most farmers understand that it’s just difficult to start out as $1 billion operation most people like in any business start small work up


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> I think most farmers understand that it’s just difficult to start out as $1 billion operation most people like in any business start small work up


No small farmer can compete.

One cotton picker cost almost 1 million dollars.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I have a friend in Jackson County, Texas, who grew up in a small farming family. He continued the tradition until he retired about a year ago.

He never bought new equipment. He knew how to keep his older tractors and pickers running.

The doom and gloom on this thread are not in keeping with my knowledge of farming in the coastal bend of Texas.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

HDRider said:


> No small farmer can compete.
> 
> One cotton picker cost almost 1 million dollars.


 That’s a lot of cotton Picking dough!

I’ve always assumed they were a lot like combines and you could buy used ones cheaper or hire custom picking.?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> What is WCB ?


Workers Compensation Board, which is who we pay heavy premiums to in case an employee is injured and who, in turn, does everything they can to avoid paying an injured worker.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> That’s a lot of cotton Picking dough!
> 
> I’ve always assumed they were a lot like combines and you could buy used ones cheaper or hire custom picking.?


Most farmers now trade when the warranty expires. They are incredibly complicated. Labor rates are higher than auto repair, and you cannot work on them yourself. The last thing a farmer can afford is downtime.

Most of the farmers here farm 10,000+ acres. At $5,000 per acre that is 50 million dollars. Whatever acreage you rent cost you 1/3 of gross proceeds


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> The last thing a farmer can afford is downtime.


A guy who farms about 150 acres of cotton near me blew the engine in his picker when he was halfway through the field. 

They had to replace the engine there in the field and it took them a couple of weeks from the time it broke down.

They can only pick during the right conditions because the cotton needs to be as dry as possible.
Rain, or even a heavy dew brings it to a halt.
It was similar to this one:


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> A guy who farms about 150 acres of cotton near me blew the engine in his picker when he was halfway through the field.
> 
> They had to replace the engine there in the field and it took them a couple of weeks from the time it broke down.
> 
> ...


I can't tell if that is a round baler. Most around here now spit out a 1,500 pound bale like a hay baler.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

This tractor is over 800 thousand dollars. Most of the 10,000+ acre guys have a couple of these.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

The term "family farm" is just one of those phrases people use when it makes sense for them to say it. There is no clear definition, just like those of us that identify ourselves under the "homesteading" label.

In my area of the midwest, a fairly typical "for profit" family farm involves dad and a son or two, possibly a grandson farming a minimum of 1,000 acres of corn, beans and wheat and maybe up to 3 - 4,000 acres. With modern equipment a pretty small crew can handle a whole lot of acreage. These guys aren't getting rich either, just making decent modest incomes. Most all of their money is tied up in real estate and equipment. Some of the bigger operations might also have a confined livestock operation along with their grain farming; maybe 8-15,000 head of hogs. Don't see many big cattle operations in my neighborhood, a large one is probably 50-100 head, this is grain country.

There are a few large vegetable operations, organic farms, etc. around but I think most of these would have a hard chance supporting themselves on their own. Most are doing it as side work and have a stable job somewhere else, or were already well healed when they took up these operations.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Rough, back of the envelope calculation.

Say you farm 1,000 acres of soybeans, You make an average yield of 50 bushels per acre. They are selling for $8.50 per bushel.

That is a gross of 425 thousand dollars. 

Most likely a father/son operation. 

4 to 6 tractors at $150,000 each, Maybe 2 18 wheelers, $100,000 each, Combine worth $125,000, buggies, planters, sprayers, tillers, etc, say another $500,000

You have a million and a half tied up in equipment. Optimistically, that is over $200K a year in depreciation. Maybe fuel cost per year runs $50,000

Seed cost you maybe $16,000
Chemicals, fertilizer, etc maybe $60 per acre, so $60,000

That puts us at 326 thousand dollars of cost to gross $425K. What am I missing?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Then you have a bad year.... too much rain, not enough rain, hail storm, very low price, bam!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> I can't tell if that is a round baler.


No, it's not being baled. 
They pack it in "modules" that weigh about 15,000 lbs each.

Then they pick it up with special tilt bed trucks with rollers.
This is how they pack them:







The yellow tilted thing is a basket trailer that carries the cotton from the picker to the "module builder". A "module builder" is about 9 meters (30 ft.) long, 4 meters (12 ft.) high and 3 meters (10 ft.) wide.

The thing on the end of the container is a hydraulic ram that compresses the cotton so tight it will hold it's shape. It can travel the length of the container, packing as needed.

When it's full, they open the end and pull the container away (It's open on the bottom), leaving the module where it sits.







When they have a few done, they back a truck against the end, pushing it up into the bed of the trailer. One module fills the bed:







It's fascinating to watch.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_module_builder


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

They have gotten away from that here. You still see it, but becoming more rare.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I worked the module maker several years. LOVED IT!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol isn’t it odd what turns out to be fun on the farm ?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

TripleD said:


> All I know about mine is if I don't get some rain the cows will be going to the sale barn...


Well after nearly four weeks we finally got over two inches last night!


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

TripleD said:


> Well after nearly four weeks we finally got over two inches last night!


Prices suck right now


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Rough, back of the envelope calculation.
> 
> Say you farm 1,000 acres of soybeans, You make an average yield of 50 bushels per acre. They are selling for $8.50 per bushel.
> 
> ...



You got the idea.
It's a very high risk, capital intense, low margin business.
Most of a farmers real wealth is his real estate, and most never cash in on that to enjoy the spoils later in life. They typically work till they can no longer work and sell the ground for next to nothing to the next generation, so they can afford to farm.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol nobody is selling land for next to nothing here. 
But I’ll take some if you know where it’s at ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It’s never made sense to me that the guy with 40 acres try’s to grow the same thing the guy with 4000 does. 
It’s like a custom shop building chevettes in stead of Indy race cars


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol nobody is selling land for next to nothing here.
> But I’ll take some if you know where it’s at ?


For sure, not to strangers.
But it does happen all the time within farm families. Grandpa sells his ground to the grandson for a fraction of market value, etc.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Actually that’s rare here too. Usually gramps needs it for his retirement and. Medical expenses.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Tail of two farmers.
Paul got screwed over by Harmer's Home Administration in the late 1950s. Since that date, he has never borrowed a dime from anyone. He is close with his money. His three tractors were built before WWII. The paint is worn off and the mufflers patched and welded. But the fuel is clean, the batteries good and the tires new. The loader on one tractor leaks, so it runs on used engine oil. Every piece of equipment gets greased and repaired when he's done with it. He mends his own jeans, cuts his own hair. Some fences are old cedar posts, pulled out and replaced upside down. Some electric fence is sharpened tree branches, 3 feet long and pounded into the ground. He sleeps in the barn during lambing. Heats with wood and doesn't have air conditioning. At haying time, he cuts 5 acres a day. Sometimes his hay is ruined. Often he makes good hay while others hesitate. He ties a cow to the road side fence to eat the roadside grass. After milking her, he puts her calf with her. After 12 hours, they are separated. Each day he moves them farther down the road, grazing the ditches. Paul says "It isn't how much you make, it is how much you keep that matters." He lives a quiet life and has many friends.

Jerry had one of the area's first milking parlors and the largest blue Harvestor silos. In the mid 1970s, he was milking 200 cows, just him and his wife and their 10 year old daughter. Their son went into the military as quick as he could. At that time, he spoke of retirement. His 2000 acres and equipment was worth $5 million. Any bank would need 10% down payment. But, at that time banks were paying 8% interest on savings and $500,000 would earn more sitting in a bank than he was earning by farming.
Jerry got rid of the cows long ago. He expanded his acreage to 6000, owned or rented. He sells seed, pesticides and fertilizer. The homes on the farm land he bought sit empty. Too troublesome maintaining them as rentals. He's still working 16 hour days, every day. He employs several people and treats them fairly. He handles millions of dollars, but I have no idea if he is a Millionaire or deep in debt. I guess it doesn't matter, he'll do the same until the day he dies.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Over the years, a number of experts have written books and formed think tanks to address agriculture’s shrinking middle, but as many of the men and women running the remaining mid-sized farms are looking toward retirement

75% of all agricultural sales are now coming from just 5% of operations. If we don’t invest in beginning farmers and family farms, and if we don’t put checks on increasing consolidation in agriculture, we’re at risk of losing mid-sized farms entirely.

While there are no hard and fast rules dictating farm size, mid-size operations tend to be regional, somewhat diverse operations that negotiate prices with their customers in restaurant, retail, or at institutions, while large farms are typically less diverse, operate globally, and make millions selling to processors, brokers, or distributors for a price that is set by the market.


https://civileats.com/2019/06/11/mi...pearing-this-program-could-reverse-the-trend/


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

I doubt there are any small scale commodity farmers anymore. Family farm is a warm fuzzy term politicians like to talk about that people hearing the term think about the 80A and 160A commodity farms from the 60s and earlier. Anymore so called family farms are huge corporate entities that farm half a county. Its like calling Ford or Walmart a family business. The only small farms anymore are vegetable truck farms that locally sell to boutique restaurants or whatever. They cant compete on bulk price, they have to compete on quality and service, maybe unique heirloom varieties. Something a wholesale produce seller cant do.

Remember Earl Butz, Nixon's secretary of ag said back in late 60s, "GET BIG, OR GET OUT" They made such happen.


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## collegeboundgal (Jul 17, 2005)

Since when did farmers take a vow of poverty? Some of you all think my husband and I and other farmers like us, are out busting our grass so we can say we are "family farmers". Do we think only of the mighty dollar? Heck no! Every choice we make we try to do right by the land to leave it in better shape than what we got it, but it still needs to pay some bills! And if I get to go on a trip to someplace enchanting to me, paid for by the cattle, goats and our hard work, then by gosh, I think I deserve it!


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

collegeboundgal said:


> Since when did farmers take a vow of poverty? Some of you all think my husband and I and other farmers like us, are out busting our grass so we can say we are "family farmers". Do we think only of the mighty dollar? Heck no! Every choice we make we try to do right by the land to leave it in better shape than what we got it, but it still needs to pay some bills! And if I get to go on a trip to someplace enchanting to me, paid for by the cattle, goats and our hard work, then by gosh, I think I deserve it!


You do indeed deserve it.

Further, much further actually, my hat is off to you and yours if you do turn a profit on the farm, and without other off farm jobs it would be incredible.


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## collegeboundgal (Jul 17, 2005)

HDRider said:


> You do indeed deserve it.
> 
> Further, much further actually, my hat is off to you and yours if you do turn a profit on the farm, and without other off farm jobs it would be incredible.


Of course we both have off the farm jobs. No way in hell am I taking out mega loans to gamble with the farm that has been in the family for 4 generations, plus, we have expensive hobbies (when we have time). I need some financial security in my life. So, that means we have been ramping up s.l.o.w.l.y... maybe in 5 years or less one of us can go either part time or stay home full time.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

collegeboundgal said:


> Of course we both have off the farm jobs. No way in hell am I taking out mega loans to gamble with the farm that has been in the family for 4 generations, plus, we have expensive hobbies (when we have time). I need some financial security in my life. So, that means we have been ramping up s.l.o.w.l.y... maybe in 5 years or less one of us can go either part time or stay home full time.


Sorry. I thought we were talking about profitable family farm businesses.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> Sorry. I thought we were talking about profitable family farm businesses.


Profitable and farm really don't go together. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. It mostly depends upon management skills, lots of work and plain ol luck.


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## collegeboundgal (Jul 17, 2005)

HDRider said:


> Sorry. I thought we were talking about profitable family farm businesses.


sorry you misunderstood me. I didn't realize that there was a minimum cap on being profitable.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

People inherit things, if they are farms or not. If your gramps inherited a modest home in New England, half way kept it up, the local governments have constantly jacked appraisal rates to increase tax revenue, and the modest little home is now worth much more than he paid for it in 19-whatever. If you inherit it, you will be able to afford much more acreage in the middle of nowhere. In most cases, escaping the taxes that you are paying on a ragged out termite farm that was built in the twenties is worth a good deal. Because of the high tax rates, employers have to pay more wages to people that live there. So someone can retire, with a higher pension, move out in the sticks, save more on taxes, and sell their inherited property for an amount of money that seems ridiculous to people from the sticks. When they buy a ragged out rock pile in the middle of nowhere without blinking an eye, it increases property values in said middle of nowhere, even on land that was all used up 50 years ago. So now, it is nearly impossible to buy land, and be able to farm it enough to ever pay for it. Even if you have magic bean seed.

If you live in a place where you can command higher market prices because of nearby suburbanites willing to pay astronomical prices for your artisan commodities, you are within striking distance of urban sprawl, and this makes the highest profit margin available to a farmer, as in all cases, that of real estate liquidation. They make more cows, but they make no more land, and therefore land is the most valuable commodity on a farm. 

This is the math that drives it all, and to dispute math is to dispute reason. Pencils out better to just sell it all, live in a motor home, see the world, and buy beef from argentina, where cows are just feral and they can round them up with helicopters.

I have reached a point in time, that the old FFA pledge does not ring true. I don't believe in the future of farming. I think it was all a ploy by the government to trick people in rural areas into producing cheap food commodities for the people in urban areas, thereby avoiding civil war, which would be bad for the stock market. There was never any future in farming. Just slavedom. Could be enjoyable slavedom for the right personality types, and that keeps a lot of people for seeing it as what it is.

Run the numbers. Numbers don't lie. It's the dream that people believe in, and the dream keeps people from breaking it down into pure math. The dream kept people looking for gold. Very few people that looked for gold ever found it. The ones that did might have ended up dead before they spent a dime of it. The people that got rich during the gold rush were the guys selling pots and pans and shovels and such. Just like the guys that are selling tractor parts, diesel, seed and fertilizer (or high priced heritage breed seed stock) are the only ones getting rich from farming. Most have a side gig, like for instance equipment dealers. They can sell logging equipment if the farmers have a bad year, and there are people almost as stupid as farmers in the logging industry. You high priced heritage breed breeding stock peddlers often have the next fad in the works, or they have a really good job in town.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

HDRider said:


> You do indeed deserve it.
> 
> Further, much further actually, my hat is off to you and yours if you do turn a profit on the farm, and without other off farm jobs it would be incredible.


Perhaps it came from being a thrifty single mom, who's ex cleaned out the bank account and left me with 3 kids and a herd of cattle, all needing to be fed but I have always worked off farm but not because the farm wasn't turning a reasonable profit but I also wanted additional improvements, don't care for credit and have a strong grasp of Murphy's Law as it relates to agriculture. 

It worked in my favour when the first case of BSE turned up, auction houses shut down, people stopped buying beef out and many lost their family farms because of the debt load they were carrying. It was a lot easier to keep things going until domestic beef started selling, without the added burden of loans, lines of credit and unexpected feed bills. Banked income covered land payments & taxes, I'd already sold my calves, which covered my anticipated feed and I tightened my belt and off farm income covered the surplus feed bills. As tight as it was, we made it through when many others didn't.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Sorry. I thought we were talking about profitable family farm businesses.


"Profitable" isn't an amount.
It's just a little *more* than you've put in.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

My grandfather homesteaded his farm. Took the sagebrush off, chased the rattlesnakes out, leveled it up for Gravity irrigation and made a comfortable living on it the rest of his life. The guy that homesteaded the farm next to his failed miserably and sold it to my grandads brother who farmed it successfully the rest of his life. Farming isn't for everyone but for the right folks it works. I go back to that community occasionally for a visit. Most of those farms are still being farmed by decendents of the original homesteaders. I call them family farms.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

How about this, not just for family farms but everyone: No property taxes. Require that all taxes be levied against gain and not against property purchased with money that has already been taxed once. This would allow true subsistence farming and also shield people from losing everything they have worked for in the event of unfortunate circumstances. At one time, property tax was a de facto income tax. That is no longer the case and it should be eliminated at all levels.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

IndyDave said:


> How about this, not just for family farms but everyone: No property taxes. Require that all taxes be levied against gain and not against property purchased with money that has already been taxed once. This would allow true subsistence farming and also shield people from losing everything they have worked for in the event of unfortunate circumstances. At one time, property tax was a de facto income tax. That is no longer the case and it should be eliminated at all levels.


But the gummit needs the money! Haven't you heard?


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> But the gummit needs the money! Haven't you heard?


I a closer to believing that my ancestral grandfather who fought in the Revolution was right about what the government needs.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I


IndyDave said:


> I a closer to believing that my ancestral grandfather who fought in the Revolution was right about what the government needs.


 think that was before the gummit decided to take care of everyone from cradle to grave.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

How about this the government is not allowed to tax property that you live on but can of course tax income from it ?

Of course the dynasty tax would be even better


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> the small family farms are disappearing daily.
> we live 10 miles away from any town in any direction.
> small acreage. 8 acres.
> our neighbor is a 3 generation family farm. He is in his 80's and the grandchildren are getting married and having babies..
> ...


Still have quite a few nice farms here in S.E. Mo. 100 acres to 10,000 plus acres. You are right there are a lot of new homes with a few acres being build in this area.


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## BlueRidgeFarms (Mar 23, 2014)

HermitJohn said:


> I doubt there are any small scale commodity farmers anymore.


It's still common enough here. Multi-generational family-only operations with under 1,000 acres per household. That's small in today's world. My family has less than that for acres, and we don't have off-farm jobs. There are a few like that around still.


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## BlueRidgeFarms (Mar 23, 2014)

HDRider said:


> Rough, back of the envelope calculation.
> 
> Say you farm 1,000 acres of soybeans, You make an average yield of 50 bushels per acre. They are selling for $8.50 per bushel.
> 
> ...


Seed is more like $40/acre, and fertilizer depends on the region. That's the low end. But you've got the general idea.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

BlueRidgeFarms said:


> It's still common enough here. Multi-generational family-only operations with under 1,000 acres per household. That's small in today's world. My family has less than that for acres, and we don't have off-farm jobs. There are a few like that around still.


You redefined small. 1000A is not a traditional small commodity farm. I remember people making a living off 80A farms without an outside job. Thats a small commodity farm. There were few really old 40A farms but that was more subsistance with bit cash generation. Most I remember had at least 160A.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

160 is only 3 more fields the same size from 640
And that’s the state average


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

80 acres kept my uncle and his wife busy, made them a good living though. A small area around the house for garden, orchard, corral and stack yard for hay, a few acres in pasture, a few more in alfalfa for hay, rest was in marketable crops. Wheat, sugar beets, sweet corn, taters, pinto beans etc. they had a few beef cows, kept a milk cow and a few chickens for eggs and meat. He picked up a few off farm jobs for extra spending money once in a while too but their farm made their living.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> How do you define a family farm?
> What regulations that they would otherwise be subject to as a business should family fatms be exempt from? And why?


A family farm or ranch is nothing more than an agricultural sole proprietorship grade venture.

The only exemptions that are applicable are the individual income and small scale /local grower exemptions that are allowed to sole proprietorships.

When sole proprietorship family farms grow to the size that corporate exemptions offer better deductions versus the agricultural investment , generally a family corporation is established to increase deductions and qualifications for grants while reducing much of the individual liabilities associated with sole proprietorship ventures.

Many farmers in our area started as sole proprietorship ventures of 50 to 100 acres and small sized herds of livestock generations ago. Some were dissolved by the younger generations and others have either growth stagnated or grown enough to become family owned corporations competing in the lower level of the corporate farm/ranch sector.

A friend of mine still family farms the 90 acres his grandfather established and as his grandfather did, works his small scale corn and soybean crops with two hired hands for 5 to 7 hours during the day while working a night job at the nearby auto parts plant.

His farm produces paychecks for his hired help and most years puts an extra $30k to $50k in his taxable income.

At the same time , a third generation cattle rancher operates the family corporation ranch that started as a family cattle farm and his grandfather, father and he grew to corporate size over 50 years and he has a labor pool of about 20 hands, spends his days and nights driving between , through and around his pasture areas of 200 to 400 acres spread out around this area of the county that comprise their 1800 acres of ranch land that his family raise cattle on making profits from on the hoof sales and qualifying for non-production grants available to corporate farms and ranches so the smaller sole proprietorship farms market share isn't totally overrun.

Both are family farming ventures and both generally profitable. The only difference is the sole proprietorship farmer is satisfied with the stagnated growth farm that has been in his family for 60 years and his auto plant job while the family corporate farmer's father and grandfather chose to grow from cattle farm to family corporation sized cattle ranch and as his father, working and managing their family interest is a full time job , however in addition to agricultural income, they qualify for federal , state and local grants that pay them not to overproduce and overrun the smaller market sector.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

A question-If all subsidies to all farms of any size/kind were removed which farms are most likely to survive. Question 2 if subsidies were removed would taxes go down?


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

1: I don't know
2: no..


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## BlueRidgeFarms (Mar 23, 2014)

ydderf said:


> A question-If all subsidies to all farms of any size/kind were removed which farms are most likely to survive. Question 2 if subsidies were removed would taxes go down?


1. Likely to affect all sizes of farms. The biggest effect will be on land rents and land prices. That'll affect land owners more than the actual farmers. The farm economy would readjust, and it's really difficult to know how it would play out.

2. Taxes would be unaffected.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

When I was a kid, I could ride my bike to 4 family run farms. All were in dairy cows.
Out of those 4 farms now 40 years later, none of them are working farms.

Farm # 1, the farmer got too old to farm. He sold the cows and now him and his wife live in their house, one daughter lives in a trailer on their property, and the son lives in what was the original farm house (his grandparent's house). The barn still stands but everything is all overgrown. The old farmer and his wife live very frugal lives but still have the farm land.

Farm # 2, the farmer at one time had hired hands to milk all the cows when he got older, as he was having trouble getting around. But this farmer also had a side business - supplied one or two buses for the local school district. His wife drove the buses. Apparently the buses helped support the farm - as the farm buildings all got old and nothing was ever done to them. Eventually some of the buildings started to fall down, and the farmer sold his cows. Eventually the barn fell down and the farmer died. I believe the kids inherited the land, but nothing is being done with it.

Farm # 3, the farmer's son took over the dairy farm when his Dad got too old. The Dad eventually died, and apparently the son didn't know how to really farm. Eventually he couldn't keep up with the bills, and sold the cows. The son died from a heart attack several years ago, and the farm was listed through a realtor from another state (where the sister lives as apparently she inherited the land. The realtor ended up auctioning off the land in several parcels. I believe several different people bought the different parcels, so the farm land is now all split up. Whomever bought the land the house and barn had the barn bulldozed over. All that remains of the "farm" is where the farmhouse still stands.

Farm # 4, was another dairy farm that was inherited to the son from the parents. This farmer had milk cows as well as a large hen house where they sold eggs from the farmhouse. Customers would just stop when needing eggs and would buy however many dozen they needed. Although the farmer had 3 kids - two sons and one daughter, none of them were interested in continuing. When the farmer got older (into his 50's) and milk prices dropped, he sold the cows and got a job off the farm. The daughter got married and moved into the grandparents house. The one son got married and built a new house on a corner of the farm property. The other son got married, but bought land 1/2 a mile from the farm. The barn is still standing but the farm is now overgrown.

My Grandmother inherited her parent's family farm. From stories I've heard, my Great Grandfather (her Dad) wasn't really much off a farmer. He was more of a part time farmer and some kind of carpenter and also a sales man. He wasn't always home so the family had to take care of the milk cows, laying hens, pigs, and a large garden and orchard. The children (including my Grandmother) and her Mother kind of ran the farm. When my Grandmother got the farm, her and my grandfather had milk cows, laying hens, and a few pigs. When they got older (and to old to farm), my grandfather got a part time job as a ground keeper at a local golf course. When my Grandfather died, my Grandmother had to be very frugal with what money was left. She ended up in a small assisted living facility at first, and then into a nursing home before she died. For all the hard work she and my Grandfather did for years, she had very little money. My Dad bought the farm and raised beef cattle for several years. One of the daughter's of my Dad's second wife ended up with the farm after my Dad's death. She continues to have a few beef cows.

Most farmers (at least around here) end up in old age with very little money to show for their hard work. The most valuable thing they own is the land - which usually then gets sold off by the children once the farmer is dead.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Michael W. Smith said:


> When I was a kid, I could ride my bike to 4 family run farms. All were in dairy cows.
> Out of those 4 farms now 40 years later, none of them are working farms.
> 
> Farm # 1, the farmer got too old to farm. He sold the cows and now him and his wife live in their house, one daughter lives in a trailer on their property, and the son lives in what was the original farm house (his grandparent's house). The barn still stands but everything is all overgrown. The old farmer and his wife live very frugal lives but still have the farm land.
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to tell the story. A sad story indeed. I wonder where we will be with farming in 20 or 30 years. Maybe it will all be third world output then. Farmers have to make a profit, and the profit is hard to find now for the non-subsidized, and even then it seems most are just barely making the payments.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It seems that most farmers make very little money farming because of the money invested in land.


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## BlueRidgeFarms (Mar 23, 2014)

AmericanStand said:


> It seems that most farmers make very little money farming because of the money invested in land.


It's always going to be that way. If the farmers ever have any money to spare, they just dump it into more land. So land always sucks up all available cash. No matter how much cash is available.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

What if land was cheeper ?
What if there were limits to how much you could farm ?
Think it would still work that way ?


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

it is not as if the farmer buys land every year, or machinery either. the payments are spread out over years.
what kills the farmer is when he takes out a loan .
that is tough on anyone, even non farmers..
Years ago farmers depended upon their large family as help. 
My wife has a distant relative who had 22 children with two different wives. (not at the same time).
every meal was like a family reunion.


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## BlueRidgeFarms (Mar 23, 2014)

AmericanStand said:


> What if land was cheeper ?
> What if there were limits to how much you could farm ?
> Think it would still work that way ?



Well, right now the only limits on the size of the farm are related to machinery and technology, and those permit very large farms. If you somehow artificially limited the max farm size to something less than today's average farm size, that would be a very downward force on the price of land. You'd eliminate much of the demand for land, and increase the supply. 
How much it would move down depends on how many people would be happy to farm at whatever the new maximum became. It would find a new equilibrium then, and something else would become the limiting criteria for who gets to farm. I don't know what it would look like, just that it would be rather different than today.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I suspect people would find a way around it.


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## BlueRidgeFarms (Mar 23, 2014)

The most obvious way is the way people get around the payment limitations today. Farms are broken up on paper in the name of the hired hand, or cousins or nephews, etc. 
I don't consider it really a problem as long as it's people like the hired hand who derive the majority of their income from the farm. Once you go beyond that, it's definitely violated the spirit of the law as well as the letter. Every few years, some of the most egregious are caught and fined. I don't know how much actual difference it makes.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Everybody is listing symptoms. The fact is, farming is a very low profit margin business, with a high overhead. You can invest your money,m and have new equipment and facilities, or you can invest your time and patch everything together with baling wire, to save money. The smartest farmers have always realized that time was money, and therefore spent there time at a side gig, whether gramps worked at the sawmill, made distilled spirits, or had a trade of some sort. At the end of the day it has always been a low profit venture, dependent on many uncontrollable factors like weather and market whims. The most valuable commodity on a farm is the real estate, always has been.

The government has known for quite some time that there is no money to be made farming, after all, they look at everyone's tax returns. This is why they have offered incentives to keep people farming. Not because we need food, heck, we could get that from another country. They needed people to farm so we could have farm boys. Farm boys can shoot a rifle or work on a tank, and we need people like that to protect our donor's investments abroad. 

Everybody worried about the disappearing family farm, blaming it on the "lazy" kids that won't pick up the torch. Guess you should have thought of that when you sent them off to school to learn all that math. Could be why they are pushing common core math now.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Owning your land doesn't automatically make you a wealthy farmer.
The profit margins and work entailed to make just minimum wage if proof of that.
I haven't met a homesteader yet that believed their path to riches was paved with dirt and manure.
Owning your own land is a feeling of freedom.
Working your homestead and striving for self sufficiency is a feeling of freedom.
That freedom comes at a price that many are willing to pay.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> The most valuable commodity on a farm is the real estate, always has been.
> .


 Lol not hardly.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol not hardly.


?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Farm land values have varied wildly over the years. . Every thing from nothing to many thousands. 

Much of the west was sold for a dollar a acre.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Land that is worth a dollar an acre is still worth more than the crops growing on it. Land that was worth a dollar an acre years ago would be worth just as much today regardless of how many people went broke trying to farm it. Possibly more if it was allowed to grow up in timber.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> Land that is worth a dollar an acre is still worth more than the crops growing on it. Land that was worth a dollar an acre years ago would be worth just as much today regardless of how many people went broke trying to farm it. Possibly more if it was allowed to grow up in timber.


 Your first statement is wrong in fact and your second statement is wrong in principle. 
What about land it was worth nothing? Was it still worth more than the crops on it ?
Even land that was worth a dollar an acre frequently had crops on it worth more than that.
I have seen property that I owned go from $1000 to $250 
Land values do go down. 


As recently as 1969 Alaska had open homesteading land valued at a buck and a half an acre. 
It was not the least bit unusual for those acres to grow a crop worth hundreds of dollars per acre.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Problem is, cheap land won't grow crops and it's darned near impossible to live on; poor climate, no water, bad soils, too rugged, etc. That's why it's cheap.

With the wet year we are having and low commodity prices, I think we will see some slight reduction in farm ground values in the midwest but it won't be huge, a 20% swing would be a lot. It will also be temporary. Soon as farm economy improves, prices will go right back up.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Fishindude said:


> Problem is, cheap land won't grow crops and it's darned near impossible to live on; poor climate, no water, bad soils, too rugged, etc. That's why it's cheap.


 Totally disagree with you on that one.
Farm production has very little to do with the value of a piece of property
Witness that some of the best farm ground in the world sells for less than $10,000 an acre in Central Illinois. 
Yet nearly useless rocky soil in Tennessee brings twice that swamp brown Alaska brings to and three times and places and in the desert of California ground brings to and three times that.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Property values have nothing to do with the soil's worth for farming. They are tied to how desirable the place is to live. Some of the most fertile land in the country is paved. Keep in mind, I'm basing the "worth" of a crop on the net return. It's easy to look at market prices and say a crop is worth X, but if you factor in things like time, transport, infrastructure upkeep it's worth a lot less. If you really look at a farming endeavor realistically and factor in things like the amount of money that you could have made doing something productive. You can subtract your returns from farming from that amount , and you are left with a figure that represents what it costs you to farm. Then, assuming that you own the land, you can factor in the cost of not having it developed. Then you have a realistic picture of what a crop is worth, usually it is in the negatives. A piece of ground will always be worth more than what you can make off of it with legal agricultural endeavors, as long as there is a doctor or lawyer that wants to have the notoriety of owning a wheatfield in Kansas, or one that wants to go to Tennessee on a camping/fishing trip, or some nut that wants to have a vegetable garden and some chickens to pretend he is "self reliant". Land is a luxury. Agriculture is used as a justification of that luxury in most cases.


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