# HELP. Need help with a freeze brand please



## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Well. Bought this super skinny mule (maybe a hinny) from a person who rescued her from a rescue. Don't ask. Really. Don't. Anyway. When I bought the mare (we named her Raven) I noticed the white marks on her neck and asked if it was a freeze brand. Nope, the owner said, those are bite marks from other horses. Oh. Well. Ok. So, I shaved down the area finally this evening (the mare is extremely rope shy) and here is what it looks like. Man, those other horses must know how to bite in alpha-numeric... And, yes, those marks to the left and down are truly bites - now healing. Help?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Can you call your brand inspector?


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## barnbrat76 (Mar 16, 2011)

I've heard about auctions freeze branding. The auctions in your area may be a good place to start.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Sounds unlikely being a mule, bit could it have come from a wild herd? The BLM freeze brands them before they adopt them out.


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## fellini123 (Feb 2, 2003)

Shoot I would like to see the teeth on that horse that bit her!!! LOL Must have alfa numeric teeth!! Interesting
Alice in Virginia


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Gailann Schrader, to solve the mystery, you may want to clip the rest of the area. When you get all the information, you may be able to contact the BLM for further information.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

I don't believe that there is a brand inspector here in Indiana, but I'll check.

I did read that auctions sometimes freeze brand but of the three "local" ones, they don't. They use stickie tags on the butt or on the head only. 

This is well healed and had mature hair grown over it. It's only shaved because I shaved it. This brand was not evident (other than the tell-tale white hair).

I was told she was 12 but the quick glance I took of her teeth a week ago, I guessed her at 7. The 6 if it's 06 would put her at about that age if it's an indicator of date of birth (if it's not an auction freeze brand).

I'll check with my preferred auction house (Veedersburg, IN) to see if they're aware of freeze branding auction houses with that alpha-numeric.

She's pretty poorly and is recovering slowly - she also has snots out of one nostril and when she puts her head down to drink, chewed food and water flow out of the other nostril. I'm thinking either cleft palate (I've only heard her call once and it was horrendous) or the esophageal sphincter is faulty from being starved almost to death. I think her stifles are faulty as well - but as long as she's recovering, I don't care. She's got a home until such time as she's no longer functioning at an acceptable level.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Those look like actual letters - like "b (or 6) FD19" That doesn't match the BLM freeze brands, which are angular symbols. That's about all I can guess about it.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

This alpha-numeric is definitely NOT BLM. If it was, it would have been relatively easy to track/trace this, imho. This is all there is. 6FD19. I want to secure her and see if she has a lip tattoo as well, but I suspicion not.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

You might try asking on local Craigslists if anyone knows anything about that tattoo. I used to tattoo my puppies for my own ID purposes with my own codes, perhaps a breeder did that. Later I would have them professionally tatooed with their AKC number.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

I agree, no where near a BLM brand. And certainly not very professionally done!!

With so many folks throwing their unwanteds into the wild herds, you never know what you'll see. But she's evidently not from a wild herd.

Whether or not you find out about her neck at least she may have a chance to recover from whatever mess she was in. Best wishes to you both.

P.S. I have a hinny.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Thank you, Rogo. I feel so bad for her. She's stick stick thin (still about 300#+ underweight). Has a Saddlebred/Thoroughbred look to her... Short, stubby ears (with crusty warts in one)... Long, luxurious tail (at one time)... Dark, deep mahogany red brown bay... Roached mane, roached forelock, back legs twist out when she walks like her stifles are blown. I love her - she's beautiful. 

Snot outa one nostril yet... Working on her second round bale since I got her on Valentine's Day (although she's in with another thin-and-recovering-from-encycsted-worms horse - NOT my horse, I'm just caring for him)...

Ewe-necked too just for good measure. Encrusted mud to the belly when I got her and reeked of horse pee. You couldn't touch her without washing your hands.

We shoulda named her Nanny McPhee with those warts on her... She's trying to let us care for her. Stands with a dreamy look on her face when we brush her and pet her. If all she ever does is walk/kinda trot for short periods? She'll be a great first mount for my new roommate who I promised to teach to ride... 

I hope the extra weight she needs to put on doesn't cause a Jenga collapse of her spine and back legs. If it does, she's had a better life for a while...


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Well, lets hope that more weight also means more strength to hold herself together, poor baby!


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

I'll post a full-body pic of her soon... she walks like an old, tired lady...


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Rogo? I like hinnies. They got style...


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

Gailann Schrader said:


> Thank you, Rogo. I feel so bad for her. She's stick stick thin (still about 300#+ underweight). Has a Saddlebred/Thoroughbred look to her... Short, stubby ears (with crusty warts in one)... Long, luxurious tail (at one time)... Dark, deep mahogany red brown bay... Roached mane, roached forelock, back legs twist out when she walks like her stifles are blown. I love her - she's beautiful.
> 
> Snot outa one nostril yet... Working on her second round bale since I got her on Valentine's Day (although she's in with another thin-and-recovering-from-encycsted-worms horse - NOT my horse, I'm just caring for him)...
> 
> ...


geez...people suck, I am glad she landed with you!


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

I would think the back legs are like that because of that terrible dip in the spine. 

She's a LUCKY GIRL to have found such a soft place to land. 

You're doing good with her. Have you given her any grain yet?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Good on you, Gailann. She'll be well taken care of with you.


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## RLStewart (Sep 10, 2006)

I was really thinking that the tattoo looked like the ones they put on the Standardbreds. Are you sure she's a mule? Not to offend but I've seen some pretty homely standardbreds with some pretty huge ears.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

The minute I saw her I said Standardbred/Saddlebred but the woman insisted she was a mule.

Oh, hell. I never looked at her chestnuts.

If she has horse chestnuts? She's Standardbred/Saddlebred. 

----. I'll do that tonite, thanks for reminding me!

and, no, Judy... still no grain but some grain as hand-offering. She had diarrhea for a while so I don't want to overload her gut any more than I have to... John said he'd take her to Purdue on the 15th, but I'm not sure I want to go to Purdue. Sometimes they go on about stuff that is annoying...


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Did you know that Standardbreds have a free tattoo search? Yes. Yes they do. I love the internets:

IF she has horse chestnuts? 

SAM'S LAURA LOUISE (6FD193, M)
YANKEE BUCKAROO - HILL'S OTHER WOMAN - NEVELE PRIDE 

GENERAL INFORMATION
Foaling Date: 04/10/2008 Sex: Mare
Foaling Place: Rochester, IN Color: Bay
Tattoo: Freezebrand: 6FD19 
Death Date: S&D Last Year: 
Markings: NO WHITE MARKINGS
Eligibility: No
CURRENT OWNER
Jeri A Kieninger (2814S8) Rochester,IN Effective Date: N/A
John A Kieninger Jr (9491D9) Rochester,IN Effective Date: N/A
Certificate Mailed 08/05/08

Oh, and here's the free search internet addy: 

http://pathway.ustrotting.com/search/index.cfm?action=result&horse_id=942803


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

I believe her odd way of going in the hind is (if she's a Standardbred, and I believe she is), Wobblers.

So she'll never be rideable. Bummer. She would have been a nice, stable mount if she'd been salvageable.

My farrier told me to put her down, but didn't say why. Now I know. *HEAVY sigh*

If it's her? She's only coming 5. Poor baby...


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Dang. I even HIT on the internet "Standardbred freeze brand" info a while ago and dismissed it...

*heavy heavy sigh for the poor babies and the breeders that don't put down their problems and hand them off to starve in mud pens*


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## RLStewart (Sep 10, 2006)

Well I hope its not Wobblers.  Won't bore you with all the details but we picked up a STB broodmare a few years ago that was very thin. Owner had boarded her out and not checked on her in awhile and they had quit feeding her. This mare is a 100K+ earner on the track but the owner had to check her tattoo to make sure it was his mare. Anyhow to get to my point, she moved really odd in the backend for about 6 monthes until she got built back up. She kinda swayed and was wearing the sides of her back feet off. Now she is fine and fat and sassy and has had two big obnoxious foals. So hopefully its nto Wobblers and she just needs to get built back up.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

I confirmed that she's a Standardbred. How? Well. She has chestnuts on all her legs (not a mule then) and smells horsey (mules and donkeys don't).

Thanks for the encouragement! I'll keep feeding her and taking care of her. I did the test where I grabbed her tail and yanked on it and she kept her footing. But she still walks oddly - I'm hoping it's the underweight issue...


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

This is really interesting. I'd love to know how she does and how she turns out. Would also like to see a picture of your "hinny"! hehe Who knew? Poor girlie. I sure wouldn't give up on her until she is strong enough to see if she is actually lame or not.

Added: Ok, I went to your web page and saw a picture of her. She looks like a horse to me.  I'm wondering if the strangeness in her rear has to do with being a Standardbred and a pacer or something like that? Gaited horses often have a different rear and add that to her sad weight, that could be her whole problem. I'm hoping!


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

You are awesome to give her such a good home Gailann.

PS: I meant to tell you. Remember my friend Jan whose horse, Chico had his kidney removed up at Purdue? He died in his sleep last year in his 30's. He had a wonderful life and was lucky enough to die with no pain and no fear. The surgery gave him a few more happy years.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I never knew that mules don't usually have chestnuts on their rear legs. I learn something new every day. 

ETA: I checked out her picture too. The pic makes her looked both cow and sickle hocked, is she that bad in RL?


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Gailann Schrader said:


> Did you know that Standardbreds have a free tattoo search? Yes. Yes they do. I love the internets:
> 
> IF she has horse chestnuts?
> 
> ...


Nevele Pride was a great horse!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevele_Pride


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

I think part of the cowhock is she's so skinny she was bracing herself, but yes. I think she is both cowhocked and sickled. 

When an animal comes and puts it's head in my hands when I go to look at it? I've been picked. For $100 _and_ she was delivered to me? I can do without something to bring that muddy, urine-coated, dejected mess home...

When I led her back to the pen? She never lifted her head. Coming 4 years old and never looked up. 

She comes to me when I walk out there to see her...

p.s. I have to be gruff with things because I'm such a softie. Everything is welcome until it's worn it out...  But when I get PICKED? I don't have a choice... I've been picked before, turned away and have been heartbroken about it since... *sigh* I suck.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Shygal? Am I seeing that this wreck's name is Sam's Laura Louise?

If so, what does all this mean?

SAM'S LAURA LOUISE (6FD193, M)
YANKEE BUCKAROO - HILL'S OTHER WOMAN - NEVELE PRIDE 

Does it mean that she's out of Yankee Buckaroo and Hill's Other Woman?

But then how does Nevele Pride figure in? Top? Like Yankee Buckaroo's sire?

Or?

It seemed a bit confusing to me...

I've sent an e-mail to the original breeder/owner shown on the info - haven't heard anything back yet. Still pains me this poor BABY was represented as a 12 yr old mule mare, broke to ride. Poor, poor baby. And that they moved her on because she bit and kicked. Well, yeah. She's a punk baby and has no manners. With all the bite marks on her that are slowly healing (all over the neck, sides and rump), I think it was the other way 'round...


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

We are waiting on a puppy until one *picks* us that way. I totally understand. You do regret it when you don't listen and take that animal home. We might have another horse or equine if one were to pick us, even though we lack a place to keep it atm.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Gailann Schrader said:


> Shygal? Am I seeing that this wreck's name is Sam's Laura Louise?
> 
> If so, what does all this mean?
> 
> ...


Sire would be Yankee Buckaroo, Dam would be Hill's Other Woman and Nevele Pride is either the sire or dam's sire I'm not sure how it's done with Standardbreds. 

I would have taken her too, Gailann. I hope that her backend issues resolve with some weight and muscle.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Gailann Schrader said:


> I think part of the cowhock is she's so skinny she was bracing herself, but yes. I think she is both cowhocked and sickled.
> 
> When an animal comes and puts it's head in my hands when I go to look at it? I've been picked. For $100 _and_ she was delivered to me? I can do without something to bring that muddy, urine-coated, dejected mess home...
> 
> ...


You don't suck--YOU ROCK! YOU are the WO-MAN! Got your Pekins yet?


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

...no baby Pekins yet and those two that floated down a mile or so to me I've not seen in a while. Prolly that coyote we heard up close the other night got some duckie dinner...

Claudia and I just got back from taking the Obe buck and the LaMancha doe and buckling to the sale barn. We didn't stay and no, there wasn't any goodies (other than gate sections) outside. 

Friday should be a whole different story, I'm thinkin...

Mare actually trotted away from me tonite because I had a halter & lead in my hand. Didn't look bad, but that fade-away on the left hind is troubling. She trotted around in a non-pace way. Fairly fluid for that defect/issue in the back end. Also saw her drinking out of the water tank and flipping water with her lip playfully. No water backwashing out of her nostril this time either!


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Well, if she's not a 12 yr old mule, you have a young horse with some hope she'll be ok. Maybe she'll turn out to be a bargain.  Or you will just be a happy sucker with a sweet horse?


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Darn it! I forgot all about the sale tonight. It's just as well, I suppose. 

Well GOOD for Raven! Hope she continues to improve!


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

nope..you don't suck at all. I like ya. Good luck with your gal. what a blessed day you were for her. I would also have done the same thing. How could you not?


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

No grain!! Ever!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Rogo said:


> No grain!! Ever!


Some horses need grain to maintain good weight.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

She seems to be struggling a bit with loose poops... I still think it's a function of starvation and now having lots of hay and LOTS of water... 

Ima hold off on feed (other than treats) for a while... Even her lower lip is saggy like an old woman. 

Thanks for all the encouragement, everyone! 

I'll post some pics when I HOPEFULLY put some weight on her... Unless the Wobbles precludes that... Or whatever that odd "give out" in the stifle/hip shows...


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Gailann Schrader said:


> ..She trotted around in a non-pace way.


She's a trotter, with a very illustrious grandpa 

[YOUTUBE]E9Z_3ZYTTd0[/YOUTUBE]

Hope she gets to make a full recovery, she's lucky to have found you!

Translated from Finnish..

http://translate.google.com/transla...yGl&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Oh my, that gave me goosebumps! 

And, did you see his ears, I think I know where she came by her big ears! lol Also, going away you could see his legs seemed to go every which way... so maybe she's just built for speed? Thanks for sharing that video, that was way cool.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Ive seen Nevele Pride race  I had an autographed picture of NP and Stanley Dancer when I was little, my cousin used to work at Saratoga and my uncle ran...something there lol, I used to love going and watching workouts, etc


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

MAN!!!! He could MOVE!!! Thank you very much for that video!


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Gosh your thread about an elderly mule has changed a little... hehe Now I'm all excited about your girlie and hope she heals well for you!!


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

If she is standing with all feet on the ground, and you stand behind her, are her hip bones at the same level?

So many possible problems can be in the rear; hip knocked down, stifled, or just plain weak from hunger.

She doesn't actually sound like wobblers to me, so fingers crossed on that one for you.

One of my acquaintances had a colt who had a bad reaction to a wormer and he lost coordination in his rear. It took about a year for him to get over it. I can't remember the name of the wormer, but some research showed it wasn't an unusual reaction to that particular brand.

I've got CRS. I can't remember the name of the wormer or what the vet called the condition that affected the colt. The manufacturer paid for all the colt's treatment, so it appeared to me that they expected to have some issues. They didn't even try to claim it wasn't their wormer.

I had a dog go all uncoordinated in her rear end and it turned out to be a staph infection in her spine. X-rays showed it and antibiotics cured it. There an awful lot of things that can affect coordination in the rear end. It can even be something like kidney stones.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Woodsmok - If I remember correctly, her hip bones are level - but I'll look again. 

I have located the owner/breeder. Seems he is the president of the Indiana Standardbred Association and has been for some years.

I've an e-mail and a phone number available. (I love the internets). I'd like to know how she ended up, starved, in a mudlot. Not gonna be confrontational, but am very curious if she was even SUPPOSED to be in a mudlot starving... Maybe her odd way of going sent her on? Usually the high class breeders don't let junk out - they are euthanized (or so I would hope). 

On a slightly amusing down note? This is in Nevele Pride's AllBreedPedigree info:

_Original name Thankfuls major.Won 1968 Hambletonian. World record on half mile track at Saratoga Harness, Saratoga Springs,NY. The worlds best trotter, yet remarkably foul-tempered. Died 1993._

I think the "remarkably foul-tempered" amused me a bit... I be he was a pip!!! (well, he WAS actually one of a kind...)

The info I was given on this mare was that she kicked and bit everyone and was extraordinarily crabby. Well? I can be too so I hope it'll work out... (but I've not seen crabbiness yet)...


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

oregon woodsmok said:


> One of my acquaintances had a colt who had a bad reaction to a wormer and he lost coordination in his rear. It took about a year for him to get over it. I can't remember the name of the wormer, but some research showed it wasn't an unusual reaction to that particular brand.


Quest, I think the brand name is. (There are others of the same class now, I think) It's a 'high powered' wormer supposed to be much more effective, but it has a much more sensitive 'dangerous dose' level than the regular wormers so you have to be much more careful about estimating weight.

Most of the mini owners won't use it and my vet said absolutely do not use it on thin horses. Horses in good weight will tolerate it better because somehow the fat buffers it ... overdosing will get stored in the fat rather than muscle tissue, but if you overdose and there is no fat to deal with the overdose, there will be damage.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I did some reading on Nevele Pride too, very interesting. One or two of his sons were mentioned as being very bad tempered. Your poor girl doesn't feel good enough to be nasty, we'll see what happens when she recovers a bit.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Thanks for the Quest warning! I would have used that on her. I'll wait until she's a bit more recovered and then worm her with something "safer"...

I was thrilled last night that I ran my hands over her washboard ribs and could FEEL A DIFFERENCE. Less washboardy... Still some ick in the water tank but I can be patient... 

I'm hoping her disposition won't head towards her grandsire's when she gets another 200# lbs on her frame... I Googled his name and disposition and he stayed nasty and hateful to the end. They almost gelded him because no one could handle him. Interesting.

from a poster three years ago from this site: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090312135640AAteoSi 

Asking who would be the Hannibal Lecter of horse racing and why...:

*My nominee for Hannibal Lecter of horses: the Standardbred stallion Nevele Pride, who was one of the most wickedly vicious stallions of modern times. 

Pride was a rogue when he started training; trainer/driver Stanley Dancer found the horse such a danger to handle that he had trouble getting a groom to handle the horse. Although the horse's talent was apparent very early on, at one point it seemed that Pride would have to be gelded because otherwise nobody would handle him. A deal was struck with groom Andy Murphy: if he handled the irascible colt, he'd get a bonus payment when the colt went to stud. 

It worked. Pride won the Hambletonian and was a champion, and went to stud at Castleton Farm in Kentucky.

I saw him there in 1985, and the office staff at Castleton regaled us with tales of how hard the horse was to handle. He wore his halter 24/7 for the simple reason that nobody dared get close enough to him to take it off. He was handled with a "bull-pole," an 8- to 10-foot wooden pole with a snap at the end that fastened to his halter. The handler was able to stay far enough away to avoid getting bitten or kicked. We were told that when the halter slipped partly off over one of Pride's ears, they held a "war party" to discuss how to go about getting it back on. It apparently took a lot of people and a lot of muscle to get the halter back on, and there were casualties.

Pride got loose once after a breeding session, and went after his groom, who ran out into the parking lot with the horse in hot pursuit. The groom dived under a parked car, and Pride got down on his knees to snake his head and neck under the car, trying to get the groom. 

The paddock they kept Pride in was double fenced all the way around, with signs stating 'This horse WILL bite, keep away' all around. Pride was standing out in the paddock. Most stallions will either ignore visitors or, after a while, saunter over for a look-see. Pride immediately pinned his ears back, bared his teeth (no other way to describe it), ran to the inner fence, turned around and started lashing out with his heels. He then swapped ends and started snaking his neck and tossing his head, nostrils flared, teeth showing, eyes rolling white. Believe me, he left NO doubt at all about what he would do if you happened to come within reach. You'd be in pieces flung all over the paddock, with whatever was left a greasy wet spot when he finished stomping on you.

Absolutely a horse that would kill you if he got the chance. Literally*.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Now you see, that is a horse that I don't think should have ever been a stallion, no matter how talented he was IMHO no animal with that kind of disposition should ever be allowed to reproduce.

You can't help but wonder just how many of his offspring and grand-get over the years have ended up with nasty dispositions, unmanageable ... sent to auction or the 'back 40'. Then ended up in a rescue situation with someone saying "all he needs is time and loving ... he's just been terribly abused" ... and how many people got hurt by one of them.

There are just too many good horses in the world to risk a bad one.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

I agree, SFM. I hate to "lose" such brilliant talent, but if you can't handle the animal and/or it's vicious? What's the point? Geld and appreciate the talent. But don't breed and send that nastiness on...

I'm a little apprehensive about her getting well enough to exhibit whatever behavior she had previously (if she did at all).

HOWEVER, I will say that the Arabian I just recently put down had what was purported to be a bad, non-willing, hair-trigger attitude prior to my owning him. I don't know if the previous owners starving him into submission or my "hey, whatever" attitude changed him and/or he just mellowed... but he was a pretty neat horse. Grand-get of Bey el Bey... *sigh* I miss him.

Anyway. I agree with SFM that if it's gonna kill ya? Don't carry the line. But I also know that those horses are what I consider to be production animals (racers/trotters/pacers) and probably shouldn't be mixed with pleasure animals.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Well, you have her now and will see how she turns out and what her experiences have done to her personality. I doubt you'll be breeding her on. I know I sure wouldn't keep a stud dog with that sort of temperament. I always figured I would breed temperament based on what I saw, no excuses for handling or background, because that was SO important.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

ZERO breeding chances. ZERO unless some wild donkey or horse breaks into my pens. 

Not much chance of that in Indiana, actually...


at least I hope not...


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

And still his feet got done for 28 years...hug a farrier today :happy2:


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

...tranquilizer darts and a hockey goalie suit...


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Gailann - We've been wondering how your girl is doing? Is she improving? Staying sweet? or?


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== Have you given her any grain yet? ===


I realize we all tend our critters differently, but in all the years I've had horses/mules/donkeys, I've never seen a reason to grain. They're already moving well, I don't want them 10 feet tall and rising!


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