# DogsBite.org



## Jeffery (Oct 25, 2011)

In the 3-year period from 2006 to 2008, pit bull type dogs killed 52 Americans and accounted for 59% of all fatal dog attacks. Combined, pit bulls and rottweilers accounted for 73% of these deaths. DogsBite.org is a national dog bite victims' group dedicated to reducing serious dog attacks. Through our work, we hope to protect both people and pets from future attacks. 
http://www.dogsbite.org/dogsbite-newsroom-2009-dogsbite-three-year-fatality-study.php
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## SDjulieinSC (Aug 8, 2005)

Wow. This is a can of worms............


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Oh dear...let me get my popcorn...


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I think my favorite part about posts like that is the "pit bull _type_ dogs" Which doesn't include a fraction as many pit bulls as it does every lab mix, boxer mix, slick-haired mutt, cur, dog with a wide face, drop ears or solid, brindle or piebald color (basically everything except sables, merles and Irish white spotting, though you'll find a sprinkling of those too.) Throwing rotties in scoops up all those pesky black and tans.

So, does Dog Bite. org work towards educating owners and looking for stricter and tougher penalties for people who keep dogs who are known nuisances, at large, or not kept under the owner's control? Does it work for tougher penalties for people who've been prohibited from keeping animals because of past crimes and yet keep them anyway?

Because if all it's working for is a breed ban, then the ignorance is astounding, the desire both selfish and cruel and the result ineffective. 
People will just go back to Dobies (WW2s Devil Dogs, or hadn't you heard?) or GSDs, both victims of past breed bans - but hey, at least they don't have those blocky heads, right?
Fluffy Airedales can be brought up to be pretty vicious.

But hey! Who cares about reality? Let's just ban breeds as if that hasn't been proven not to work for over 60 years! C'mon everybody:bandwagon:


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

I literally just got done working on a 25 lb Lhasa Apso that did alligator rolls, and tried to commit suicide while attacking me like Cujo for an hour. I'm sure if it was as large as a Rott, it may of had a chance at succeeding at killing me.

I'm having another WONDERFUL day at work today. Not.  There is a never ending stream of viscious dogs in the grooming industry. The only reason they don't make it onto the bite lists is because of small stature.

If vets and groomers started reporting bites and attacks on a daily basis the tops of those lists would be filled with toy dogs and there would be a push to ban them.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wonder who gets to decide what breed the dog is?


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Haven said:


> I literally just got done working on a 25 lb Lhasa Apso that did alligator rolls, and tried to commit suicide while attacking me like Cujo for an hour. I'm sure if it was as large as a Rott, it may of had a chance at succeeding at killing me.
> 
> I'm having another WONDERFUL day at work today. Not.  There is a never ending stream of viscious dogs in the grooming industry. The only reason they don't make it onto the bite lists is because of small stature.
> 
> If vets and groomers started reporting bites and attacks on a daily basis the tops of those lists would be filled with toy dogs and there would be a push to ban them.


I worked at a groomer's one summer. Seemed the most obnoxious dogs we had were Bichons. HATED them! They were nasty, as were Schnauzers. The only dog that succeeding in biting me was a Sheltie. The big dogs never gave us any trouble.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Pancho, you'll like this. A fellow came to my door to sell insurance (I hadn't realized till then they still do that!) and told me my dog Deacon looked "a little pitty around the eyes" and that house insurance would therefore cost more.

This is Deacon;


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

Otter said:


> Pancho, you'll like this. A fellow came to my door to sell insurance (I hadn't realized till then they still do that!) and told me my dog Deacon looked "a little pitty around the eyes" and that house insurance would therefore cost more.
> 
> This is Deacon;


You have got to be kidding.:hysterical:
Oh lordy! 
I'm sorry but on a serious note, it infuriates me that that's probably true about the rate being higher. and yeah, who says what the breed is?? 

that is a very pretty dog you have!


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

This dog bite by breeds thing IS a can of worms, but I think the value in looking at stats is to evaluate the level of damage different kinds of dogs are capable of.

Hope we can agree, all kinds of dogs bite. That said, the recurrent incidents of toddlers maimed by the family dog seems to call for some kind of better awareness. It's not likely the doodah owners of dangerous dogs are going to be poring over the data though.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Where is the info about watching for loose dogs and how to prevent a dog attack? 
Breed bans don't work. You ban one breed and a bunch of jerks decides to use another breed for attack dogs. I've seen them go from German Shepards to dobermans to Dalmations to rottweillers to pitt bulls. In every single breed there were thousands of wonderful dogs for every mean one. 

OTOH, I would love to see a "stupid owner ban". People who have a track record of letting their dogs run loose or having attacked people off their property should be banned from having ANY dog for life!


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

Haven said:


> If vets and groomers started reporting bites and attacks on a daily basis the tops of those lists would be filled with toy dogs and there would be a push to ban them.


As a vet tech, I have experienced this!! The only large dog I've ever been bit by was a Golden Retriever. The worst dog bite I've ever had that resulted in multiple sutures was from and Eskimo Spitz. Next to that was a Jack Russell, then the Pekes, Chi's, and other toy breeds. Even when agitated, a large breed dog is much easier to restrain that a little one, IMO.

ETA - I've worked with hundreds of Pitts and Pitt "types" and never been subjected to an aggressive stance by one.


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## romysbaskets (Aug 29, 2009)

I think that if they lump Pit Bull Types with actual Pit Bulls and proven or known Pit Bull mixes, that is a little confusing and not exactly accurate? They should never refer to a dog as a type, it either is or it isn't. It is not that hard to find out if each dog that attacks is part Pit Bull or is a full Pit Bull and be accurate. There are a lot of different breeds that will bite especially small dogs but they seldom kill which is why the numbers are so off. Of the bigger dogs, many do not end up in fatality counts so it is hard for these studies to make sense unless they list both and really identify the breeds that bite and those that result in death. Lumping dogs together gets pet owners to question it and I agree, they need to be accurate!

Now this said...a sad story from a friend involving his full blooded registered Pit Bull. 

My Friend, loved his obedient full blooded Pit Bull he raised for 5 years with his 5 year old daughter. This dog was so sweet and loving, they adored him. The little girl and their dog were like best friends. One day, as they were in the back yard, fully fenced and she was playing on the swing set, this Pit Bull ran full board from across the yard and pulled her off by her head, then began biting her. Her Father, who was watching his little blonde blue eyed girl play in the back yard through his kitchen window, immediately grabbed his gun on his way by the back door and ran out to get his daughter released. She has life long scars and he had to shoot his own dog after he buried his daughters bleeding face in his shoulder as the dog was not backing off and he feared for his own life, he could not even leave his own yard until he shot the dog. He then rushed her to the local hospital, she lost a lot of blood. This friend is a very strong and big man who never had a single issue with his family pet before then. He was so sad about his dog and his daughter both. This dog was such a loved family pet and never showed any aggression before of any kind. My friend was so confused by what happened.

I took care of a 6 week old full blooded Pit Bull for my daughter some years ago. This sweet little dog began tearing my pant leg edge in play one day. I reached down to **** him away and he got my finger in his mouth by mistake, there was no aggression and it was clearly an accident on his part. He had bitten down but did not seem to be able to release my finger, it was stuck. I got worried, it did hurt but I calmly picked him up with my other hand and pried open his jaw to get my finger out. I think that these dogs have a very strong bite and this is one of the issues when they attack. 

Recently, I have read some stories where Pit Bulls have saved their owners lives. You will find Pit Bulls who never bite lumped along with those that do. 

There are many breeds that will bite or attack and abused dogs are more likely to. However, with a dog that has a strong jaw like a Pit Bull, owners need to be responsible. It is not about pointing fingers so they need to be careful with these studies, any dog with teeth can bite. Each fatality needs to be accurately documented to the breed of dog not assumed or generalized.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

This group is full of misinformation and is about the same as the HSUS and PETA. They are based out of Texas and are mailing flyers to every resident in one Minnesota city trying to get BSL laws passed. Sadly for them BSL is illegal in MN. Statistics can be adjusted in whatever way you want them to best present your case. All I am going to say about breed specific legislation is if anyone enjoys owning a dog of any breed they better put their breed biases aside and not support this legislation.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Otter said:


> Pancho, you'll like this. A fellow came to my door to sell insurance (I hadn't realized till then they still do that!) and told me my dog Deacon looked "a little pitty around the eyes" and that house insurance would therefore cost more.
> 
> This is Deacon;


Now that was a very knowledgable salesman.
I never would have guessed Deacon was part pit.
Wonder if they have someone with his knowledge judging what breed dogs that bite belong to?


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

Otter said:


> Pancho, you'll like this. A fellow came to my door to sell insurance (I hadn't realized till then they still do that!) and told me my dog Deacon looked "a little pitty around the eyes" and that house insurance would therefore cost more.
> 
> This is Deacon;


Unbelievable!! My guess would be Border Collie mix -am I right?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

If it hadn't happened to me, I wouldn't believe it. The conversation went;
"Where did you buy that Border Collie?" <admiring look>
"Oh, DD pulled him out from under a shed at a friend's house and gave him to me for Mother's day"
"So you don't know his breeding then?" <dismay>
"No, his mother looked as much like a heeler as he does a Border Collie"
"Oh. Well. I'm surprised you trust him then. You never know just what a mongrel has in them. Look how broad his forehead is. And his eyes. He looks a little pitty around the eyes to me."
Dumfounded silence, as I stare incredulously from this man to my narrow, typey, 27 pounds of long-legged Border Collie cross dog.
He continues, "Just to be safe, I'd have to put him down as a dangerous breed. He definitely looks like a pit bull around the eyes. Your insurance would cost more, but you'd get extra coverage if he bit someone..."

Not having wanted insurance in the first place, I asked him to leave. I was proud of myself for restraining myself from pointing out that the beagle wasn't purebred either, and not succumbing to the temptation to see if either of the dogs _would_ bite.
I was reminded forcibly of the saying "lies, d*mn lies, and statistics"


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Strong jaw has little to do with it. I had a 140 lb Great Dane with a biting problem, but he never more than bruised anyone. There is no doubt there was power there to do more damage, but he only did what he thought necessary to make someone back off. Our adoption contract forbade us from putting him down, so we returned him and had nothing further to do with that adoption agency.

Personally, I don't like leaving children and dogs together. Maybe if it's a livestock guardian dog from working lines that you've seen be submissive to lambs and chickens, but otherwise, always supervise. Put the dog up/out if you have to to give the kid playtime while you work. Kids move in strange ways that dogs may not understand, kids tend to also read the dog's reactions poorly and not change their behavior when the dog is stressed or starting to become aggressive, and the consequences of an inter-species misunderstanding are very severe.


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## Tracy (May 2, 2002)

My insurance guy comes once a year to go over not only our home owners policy but also business policies. He has seen my very large dogs many times. The day he would tell me my dogs are a risk or raise my policy would be the day I would be getting different insurance. 

As others have said. Start regulating the irresponsible pet owners that have no clue. Breed bans are not the way to do this.

Otter, you held your tongue better then I would have. Nice pit you have there


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

These groups are filled with misinformed people and retired housewives with lap dogs wearing dresses. They no longer have kids at home to control and manage, so they want to get up in every pet owners face to push their ideology about their "furkids".. They usually have no real life working experience with dogs in any training or professional venue, other than a few "experts" they manage to pull out of the woodwork.

If they want to pass laws, they should be looking at the pet owners who turn these dogs neurotic...but we all know that is a dead end street.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

At our vet clinic it's the dachshunds that bite the most. The problem is no warning! No growling, lifting the lip..just chomp! Grrrrr......
But for some reason we do see a lot of Dachshunds so maybe that is why....just the shear numbers that make it more common. All breeds have a potential to be biters. The sad thing is when you see someone come in with a puppy that is already showing aggression.  
I have yet to have any problems with pit bulls or pit bull "type" dogs that come in. And we get a lot of those...more than the sneaky little Dachshunds!  
On the other hand....one of the Dachshunds that boards at our place a lot is a wonderful little dog. I love him! When I go to pick him up to put him in the kennel he rolls over on his back for a belly rub!


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I always get upset when this subject comes up. I never had a Pit but I had German Shepherds. About 12 yrs ago we moved to a condo for a couple of yrs. We shared custody of our GSD with our youngest son who purchased our house. We were traveling a lot then. We had to get our homeowner's insurance updated on the condo. The Ins. agent came over and saw our German Shepherd who would not bite a flea. He said he pretended that he never saw him because the company would consider him a dangerous breed.
I have grandchildren and I was so concerned that I never let the oldest ones around the GSD till they were about 5. When out 2 four yr olds are here now, I keep Sammi on a leash or put her in a crate with a bone. They move very fast and she wants to play with them. Her nails are sharp. I just don't take the risk of them being scratched.
Any time we took our GSDs anywhere people were always calling them "mean dog" which they were not at all. I hate when one breed gets attacked. 
There are other cases though where people have aggressive dogs and they let them roam. Owners are always responsible for that dog.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Otter said:


> If it hadn't happened to me, I wouldn't believe it. The conversation went;
> "Where did you buy that Border Collie?" <admiring look>
> "Oh, DD pulled him out from under a shed at a friend's house and gave him to me for Mother's day"
> "So you don't know his breeding then?" <dismay>
> ...


And if he knew anything about dogs, he would know that herding breeds are much sharper and willing to communicate with bite compared to a Pit.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Well, some of the dogs I have seen look to be the assault rifle type and those types also have longer teeth that are capable of biting real fast and of course biting many people in a short period of time. These dogs need to be banned.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

16,000 people die each year slipping in bath tubs, less then a 100 by dogs. Ban bath tubs!


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## Kwings (Dec 21, 2010)

Otter said:


> Pancho, you'll like this. A fellow came to my door to sell insurance (I hadn't realized till then they still do that!) and told me my dog Deacon looked "a little pitty around the eyes" and that house insurance would therefore cost more.
> 
> This is Deacon;


I once had an insurance drop me because i owned a full blooded German Shepard. It was all because i was mean to the insurance guy and he never even saw my dog. 

Here she is. 










She's a boxer/lab/pit mix. Mom was lab/pit, daddy was lab/boxer. 

and vicious too let me tell ya! That poor bunny. :runforhills:


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

LOL Kwings, your dog looks to have as much GSD as mine does pit! She has a sweet face.

Haven, out of all my dogs, Deacon is definitely the most likely to take a chunk out of someone. He may look like a BC, but he acts more like a heeler, he's fast, sharp and mouthy. And, he's nearsighted, so doesn't stand down without a command or a good smell of a person. 
But he's well trained, kept inside a fence and if we go somewhere doesn't budge from my heel and is much more friendly and relaxed because he knows his job at the farm may be to guard, but in public it's to greet. He _loved_ the fair last year. He got to greet grades K through 2 as they single-filed through the pig barn.


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## Kwings (Dec 21, 2010)

Otter said:


> LOL Kwings, your dog looks to have as much GSD as mine does pit! She has a sweet face.
> 
> Haven, out of all my dogs, Deacon is definitely the most likely to take a chunk out of someone. He may look like a BC, but he acts more like a heeler, he's fast, sharp and mouthy. And, he's nearsighted, so doesn't stand down without a command or a good smell of a person.
> But he's well trained, kept inside a fence and if we go somewhere doesn't budge from my heel and is much more friendly and relaxed because he knows his job at the farm may be to guard, but in public it's to greet. He _loved_ the fair last year. He got to greet grades K through 2 as they single-filed through the pig barn.


Thanks, she is such a sweetie. <3


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## romysbaskets (Aug 29, 2009)

Kwings said:


> I once had an insurance drop me because i owned a full blooded German Shepard. It was all because i was mean to the insurance guy and he never even saw my dog.
> 
> Here she is.
> 
> ...


Wow is all I can say, how cute is this! None of our three dogs would be so nice to a bunny..how adorable....I have one dog that is a scary mouse/rat and yes, a total bunny killer. He is vicious to all rodents and a bunny is just a piece of meat in his eyes, they had better move out of my yard faster than he can run...and yes this guy can really move! Boy the insurance guys do not want to catch me with this scary dog! When a knock is apparent at my door, this guy is something to be reckoned with!!!! :runforhills:










But then I open the door and the laughter begins...this is the sweetest little 22 lb dog I have ever had. He lets my grandson sit on him. So much for appearances...but if they saw his prey or heard him through the door...they could not know this stuffed animal looking guy was on the other side.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Minelson said:


> At our vet clinic it's the dachshunds that bite the most. The problem is no warning! No growling, lifting the lip..just chomp! Grrrrr......
> But for some reason we do see a lot of Dachshunds so maybe that is why....just the shear numbers that make it more common. All breeds have a potential to be biters. The sad thing is when you see someone come in with a puppy that is already showing aggression.
> I have yet to have any problems with pit bulls or pit bull "type" dogs that come in. And we get a lot of those...more than the sneaky little Dachshunds!
> On the other hand....one of the Dachshunds that boards at our place a lot is a wonderful little dog. I love him! When I go to pick him up to put him in the kennel he rolls over on his back for a belly rub!


Ahh yes, they are aggressive little things. Lots of childhood memories of my grandparents Dach lunging to attack me as I walked through the room. They are one of the breeds that need to be muzzled frequently for grooms.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Seems like any time a breed becomes popular you see a rise in poor temperaments. Way too many pet breeders that don't understand how to train or properly evaluate a dog. Combine this with a dog with an incredibly strong bite bred specifically to fight and you have a potential problem. People get these dogs thinking that in the right home all the generations of breeding will just go away. The new wave of PP training doesn't help matters much either.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Lets see. 52 deaths over a 3 year period. That's 17 people per year and the population of the USA is over 311 1/2 million people.

While I have a great deal of sympathy for anyone killed by a dog, that sure doesn't make dogs look very dangerous.

Also, that "Pitbull type" makes the statistic meaningless. Just like when I worked in Animal Control and we were forced to count every bite made by a dog with erect ears as a German Shepherd bite. Thousands of bites went in as made by "German Shepherds" and in all that time only two bites were done by real German Shepherds and those were both provoked righteous bites.

Yet, you can look at the official government statistic and show that German Shepherds are really bad biters. It doesn't matter that all those bites accredited to them were made by assorted mongrels with no German Shepherd blood at all.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Dogs Bite: But Balloons and Slippers Are More Dangerous


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Haven said:


> I literally just got done working on a 25 lb Lhasa Apso that did alligator rolls, and tried to commit suicide while attacking me like Cujo for an hour.


The only dogs I've really been seriously bitten by (enough to leave a mark) have been Lhasas, Shih Tzus, and Mini Poodles. Oh, and a Samoyed. Had lots more attempt to bite me, mostly smaller dogs, but I can usually read them well enough to know when they're thinking about it and take preventative measures.

Dachshunds, Bassets, and anything with short legs
Cockers
Chows
Short-legged terriers
Dalmatians
Bichons

Are among the other breeds that have attempted to eat me.



> If vets and groomers started reporting bites and attacks on a daily basis the tops of those lists would be filled with toy dogs and there would be a push to ban them.


Absolutely--and far, far fewer "pit bull type dogs" would be on the list.

I've never been bitten by a "pit bull type dog", a German Shepherd, or a Doberman. I had a Rott try to bite me once.


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## Kwings (Dec 21, 2010)

I've been attacked by 3 dogs in my life. All of them were small dogs. Two of them were Dachshunds and the other a rat terrier. Give me a snuggly buggly "Pit type" any day and keep the yippers far far away.


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## lexa (Mar 30, 2012)

Which Dogs Bite? A Case-Control Study of Risk Factors (1991) - DogsBite.org
"Dogs predominantly of German shepherd, chow chow, collie and akita breeds were substantially more frequent among biting than nonbiting dogs. The total numbers of dogs mainly collie (n=9) and akita (n=5) breeds were small compared to the total numbers of German shepherd (n=47) and chow chows (n=40).
Biting dogs were significantly more likely to reside in homes with one or more children, ages 10 years and younger, and to be chained while in the yard. Of the 83 chained dogs, 44 (53%) had growled or snapped at visitors to the house. This same behavior, however, was reported in unchained dogs 44% of the time."

Those are non fatal bite statistics.

As a groomer, I am lucky that I have avoided any serious bites. Worst one - a puncture wound came from mini poodle who was hiding in the corner. I do not wish to take chases with being bitten and put out of work over miser money so I do not work with dogs that act stupid and there is no way to work around it. So far only dogs that were openly agressive toward me or people in the shop were chows, akitas and a pit mix who arrieved already muzzled and was lounging at me in the lobby while his owner was saying that he dosn't bite. I never had issues with rotties or pure pits.

It is in part the way the dogs are raised and in part in their genetics that causes severe biting. Some breeds are more prone to biting than others but the problem lays in the fact that most owners are not capable of training their dogs. Most should not own dogs period. Outlawing certain breeds is easier that public education. 
In Germany for example, in some provinces pits and other breeds of fighting background are prohibited, however in some of them the dogs can be kept if they pass an equivalent of canine good citizen exam. I wish that this is something like that can be done in states. As a dog owner you can only control your dog and be responsible for its actions. 
I found similar statistics in San Francisco pedestrian/car accidents and no one there is trying to outlaw cars: Pedestrian fatalities in San Francisco on pace to surpass last year's - The Bay Citizen
"Since 2008, San Francisco has averaged 17 pedestrian deaths a year. For the past two years, there have been more than 800 pedestrian collisions a year"


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Wolf Flower said:


> Shih Tzus, and Mini Poodles. .


Most Shih Tzus around here seem to be very laid back and docile. They are also more popular than any other breed atm.

About 15 years ago we had one bad Shih breeder of a particular color that was flooding the region with nasty Shihs. My old boss actually refused to take in any new Shih clients of that particular color because we just new it was going to be crazy.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

This is my personal opinion only.
When people talk about being attacked by a dog they can mean different things.
I don't consider an attack to be just a bite or attempted bite. A small dog without the power in its jaws to hurt should not be called an attack. They can and will bite but really can't do much damage. Sort of like calling a mosquito bite an attack.

I have been bit so many times I can't even count them. I have been attacked once.
There is a difference.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

pancho said:


> This is my personal opinion only.
> When people talk about being attacked by a dog they can mean different things.
> I don't consider an attack to be just a bite or attempted bite. A small dog without the power in its jaws to hurt should not be called an attack. They can and will bite but really can't do much damage. Sort of like calling a mosquito bite an attack.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this. Some of the dogs that come in for grooming are little spoiled snots. Most of the time I can still pick them up to put them on the grooming table with little worry. I can control them to a point and lessen the chance of being bit. Some need muzzling, but most give it up once they realize they are getting groomed anyway. My daughter's little min pin/chi mix was a terror when I went to look at her as a pup. I could not pick her up without her snipping at me(10 weeks old). Her father was also snippy, couldn't pet him. My daughter is 14 and used to being around dogs, and I figured we could work her out of the snottyness. I would never have bought a border collie or lgd pup with that attitude, no way. The little thing just didn't worry me. I have had some herding dogs in for training that would bite as well. Usually it's defensive, but have seen a few aggressive. Still the dog is small enough you can hold the leash up away from you and keep from getting bit until you get the thing in a cage. The threat is pretty minor. I wouldn't want to take on an aggressive lgd, rott, bully breed, or some of the other larger breeds.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

pancho said:


> I have been bit so many times I can't even count them. I have been attacked once.
> There is a difference.


I was attacked once when I was a kid. I think I was 10 or 11, we had just moved into a new house and I was out in the front yard minding my own business. Suddenly, two big black Lab mix dogs came running over from the house across the street, and circled me, barking and snarling. One of them bit me on the hip, then as quickly as they had come, they ran back to their house.

My mom and I went to confront the owner and ask if the dog was UTD on his rabies vaccine. The owner was shocked.  "Oh, but he's such a love! I think he's just grumpy because it's hot outside." 

A neighbor saw the whole thing, and asked my Mom and I how things turned out. As it turned out, these two dogs would walk the neighborhood off-leash with the owner's senile old mother, and had terrorized everyone. The owner herself was a nice lady but a total ditz (many years later, she had a Samoyed that she brought in for grooming, and that dog bit me also).

My mother said, "Doesn't it make you feel good that someone else saw the whole thing?" I asked her what she meant by that and she said, "You know, so people don't think you were just making the whole thing up." :hrm: As though the bite wound on my hip got there by itself?

Being a dog lover, I went back and made friends with the dog that bit me, and never had another problem with him. In hindsight, I suppose it wasn't a serious "attack", but it was scary nonetheless.


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## Kwings (Dec 21, 2010)

pancho said:


> This is my personal opinion only.
> When people talk about being attacked by a dog they can mean different things.
> I don't consider an attack to be just a bite or attempted bite. A small dog without the power in its jaws to hurt should not be called an attack. They can and will bite but really can't do much damage. Sort of like calling a mosquito bite an attack.
> 
> ...


I disagree. When i was a little kid we went to a yard sale where i was viciously attacked by this lady's dachshund, who "had never hurt anyone ever". I don't mean he nipped me i mean he ran across the yard, leaped onto me and took a bite out of my face. I had to go to the hospital and get stitches. 

My grandmas dachshund was a vicious cuss of a dog. He would viciously attack anyone, family or not, when they came into the house. He had to be kept tied to a leash when she had company. He bit my cousin when she was a baby and it took my grandma everything she had to keep my grandpa from killing that dog right then and there. We were afraid of going to her house because DJ would try to kill us every time we came over. Nothing like visiting your grandma with a hot dog shaped demon growling at your from the end of its leash in the middle of the living room floor. 

The third was my friends rat terrier who could do no wrong, he viciously attacked me on more than one occasion and bit one of our neighbors on 3 different occasions all of which resulted in him going to the hospital. 

Little dogs not having the power to hurt people is crap, they can and do. People just think that they cant because they see this little dog and think it can't hurt a fly, and then it bites you in the face.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

JasoninMN said:


> All I am going to say about breed specific legislation is if anyone enjoys owning a dog of any breed they better put their breed biases aside and not support this legislation.


Oh, yes. First its pitties, then it will be shepherds, then chows, then...what? You need to know this is yet another step on your toes of freedoms worthy of being in the basement in GC.

By the way, I've had chows my whole life and shepherds for years and been around numerous pitties and crosses forever. The only dogs that have ever bitten me, two separate dogs and two different occasions, were poodles.

Pancho, I respectfully disagree...an attack encompasses the intention behind a bite. Little dogs attack, they just don't do much damage as a rule but only because they are little. The intention behind a lhasa bite is the same as with a St Bernard; biting to deliberately cause injury or worse. Little dogs cannot be excluded if they bite just vecause they don't do damage.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

Here's a few local ones:
Pit Bulls Kill Concord Toddler | NBC Bay Area

Calaveras County man apparently killed by pit bulls | news10.net

S.F. boy, 12, killed by his family's pit bulls / Shocked Inner Sunset neighbors call 911 after hearing mother scream, 'Help me!' - SFGate

And the young woman mauled to death by pressa canarios inside her own apartment building Presa Demand Grows for All Wrong Reasons / Dogs wanted for killing, fighting - SFGate

Wadda ya do when people want killer dogs?


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## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

JasoninMN said:


> Statistics can be adjusted in whatever way you want them to best present your case.


My dad had a saying that I grow to appreciate even more as I get older (and wiser). He used to say, "Figures lie and liars figure."


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## Kwings (Dec 21, 2010)

RedDirt Cowgirl said:


> Here's a few local ones:
> Pit Bulls Kill Concord Toddler | NBC Bay Area
> 
> Calaveras County man apparently killed by pit bulls | news10.net
> ...


You ask them why they don't want a dog more publically acceptable like a Golden Retriever

Dog killed ripped 2-month-old baby's legs off while father slept in other room: police - New York Daily News

Or a Poodle

Girl, 7, Hospitalized After Poodle Attack - WBOC-TV 16, Delmarvas News Leader, FOX 21 -

or a collie, everyone loves Lassie!

Family's border collie leaps into car and mauls baby | Mail Online

Toddler needed 200 stitches after attack by his grandparents' 'timid' collie | Mail Online

My point is, yes, these "type" ( i hate saying that) of dogs WERE once used for fighting, but its bad breeders and bad/inattentive/ abusive/ clueless owners that make bad dogs. I'd rather be around a big full muscled but properly trained and socialized Pit bull. Than any of the "more acceptable" dog breeds that have never even heard the word sit and have no idea what discipline is. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions to the rule, but for the most part bad owners turn what could have been a great family pet, into someones nightmare.


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## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

Another problem is that pit bulls are often misidentified, even by animal control. Look at Petfinder. There are lots of dogs on there called one thing, but they don't resemble that breed at all. Heck, pit bull isn't even a breed. Problems with pit bull identification - Expert testimony in animal behavior


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Stonybrook said:


> Another problem is that pit bulls are often misidentified, even by animal control. Look at Petfinder. There are lots of dogs on there called one thing, but they don't resemble that breed at all. Heck, pit bull isn't even a breed. Problems with pit bull identification - Expert testimony in animal behavior


Yes, pit bull is a breed. One of the oldest breeds of dogs. It has been called several different things through the years. You can say the entire name, american pit bull terrier or shorten the name to pit bull. Just because most people can't recognize one when they see one does not mean they are not a breed.
They have been a breed even before most of the everyday breeds were developed.

It is sort of funny, the web site given has a picture of a dog. It isn't a pit bull.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

When people are held accountable for their dogs actions things will change not when a breed is banned. Make it a criminal offense that goes on your record and people will take ownership a lot more serious. Anyone who has ever worked as a ACO knows the animal laws are a joke and most cases are thrown out. Your dogs mauls or kills someone and you basically get off free, that is the real problem. There are an estimated 20 million pit bulls in the U.S. if not more. They are the most popular type of dog out there right now. If they were inherently dangerous a lot more people would be killed each year, obviously the more popular the breed the more likely there will be bites. 

Minneapolis puts pictures of their dangerous dogs online. Note the different breeds and how some dogs like Darla, Nico and China are called pits and they are obviously mutts and there is no way to be certain if the have pit in them or not. The others are even questionable to breed and this is a prime example of how the stats get thrown way off. http://www.minneapolismn.gov/animals/animal-control_dangerousdogs_list

Jeffrey how is banning one breed going to solve the dangerous dog problem? 16 of the 27 dangerous dogs are not "pitbulls" and even some of the so called pit bulls are MUTTS that no one can be certain on their ancestry. Breed specific laws do not work.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Jason, did you notice the new breed in the pics of dangerous dogs?
Guess it is a new breed, I never heard of Sharpie.
That might give some indication of the knowledge of the people who made up the list.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

I didn't notice that poncho. I wonder if Sharpie's disfigure their victims with magic markers.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

I personally do not like large dogs these days. They do have the potential for greater harm than a dog who weighs fifteen pounds. 

I have seen dogs raised perfectly well, with nothing but firm rules and training, plenty of kindness and nothing but gentle people, turn into biters. I do believe nature will out nurture; else we'd not have all the threads we do here. People get a pup of a herding breed, raise it to adulthood, and move to the country. They are then shocked and appalled when it, surprise! Kills their chickens. 

I think it's kinder to avoid breeding dogs with certain inclinations. While I'm all for individual freedom, breeders should be more regulated. People should stop supporting the fools who breed carelessly. It is *not* 100% nurture, of that I have no doubt. Pet ownership should come with civic responsibilities. Shelters should temperament test *every* dog that comes in before adoption. 

I could support grandfathering in the dogs already here, and not allowing new ones to come without a temperament test. I really don't get upset at the idea of a breed ban... if living wher I do meant that I could not have a sheltie because they were the local "problem" for whatever reason, fine. I'll get something else. Maybe there's a couple bad breeders turning out neurotic nasty beasts. *shrug*

I was at our shelter a couple weeks ago with this wrinkly faced bull dog pressing himself to the bars, whining and tail going a mile a minute while I cooed to him and rubbed his ears. That's the way nine of them behave, but number ten is a slavering beast brought in by his own owner for becoming too aggressive. 

It's complex. Honestly, ugly as it sounds, problem puppies should probably be culled mroe than they are. I've been at a shelter, playing with a litter of fuzzy, spotty little poodles X babies, and had one of them so aggressive it was disturbing. Same story with a litter of baby bulldogs. Six of them are wiggling and fawning at your feet, one's trying to eat your hands.


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## Tracy (May 2, 2002)

jen74145 said:


> I personally do not like large dogs these days. They do have the potential for greater harm than a dog who weighs fifteen pounds.
> 
> I have seen dogs raised perfectly well, with nothing but firm rules and training, plenty of kindness and nothing but gentle people, turn into biters. I do believe nature will out nurture; else we'd not have all the threads we do here. People get a pup of a herding breed, raise it to adulthood, and move to the country. They are then shocked and appalled when it, surprise! Kills their chickens.
> 
> ...


I so disagree about banning breeds. It is people that need to be educated and should no what to look for when getting a dog or puppy. How many people buy a dog on impulse or because of the way they look and have no clue to what the breed was bred to do.
eduction.

Another factor that has not been brought up is vaccine damage and especially the rabies vaccines which studies have shown over and over that we over vaccinate our dogs and it can and does cause issues. The Rabies Vaccine for Dogs and Cats: What You Need to Know Now

How many dogs get a death sentence because of aggressiveness when no one has put 2 + 2 together and figured out that this may be vaccine related and can be treated with homeopathy.
The Rabies Vaccine for Dogs: Side Effects and Precautions You Can Take

Rabies Vaccinosis AlertÂ Â Â Â Â Â  by
" Unfortunately vaccination can result in certain sensitive individuals a chronic disease state one that is long-lasting, indeed in some cases a life-long condition. In human children there is increasing evidence of linkage between vaccination and chronic illnesses such as autism, juvenile diabetes, and asthma.

This state of "vaccinosis" is understood as the disturbance of the life force that results in mental, emotional and physical changes induced by the laboratory modification of a viral disease to make a vaccination. 

In other words, instead of seeing acute expressions of viral disease, we are, instead seeing symptoms of chronic illness which are actually documented to occur in rabid animals. Symptoms of rabies include restlessness; viciousness; avoidance of company; unusual affection; desire to travel; inability to be restrained; self biting; strange cries and howls; inability to swallow resulting in gagging while eating/drinking; staring eyes; swallowing wood, stones, inedibles; destruction of blankets, clothing; convulsive seizures; throat spasms; increased sexual desires; disturbed heart function; excited and jerky breathing. My biggest concern with pets are the changes in behavior after being vaccinated. This is usually along the lines of aggression, suspicion, unusual fears, etc. The essential aspect is a lack of control of impulses."


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Here's another one, ack. Family is savaged by their own pet Staffordshire bull terrier | The Sun |News . I am not really into bully breeds, but I can see that many working breeds of dogs just don't seem to fit into the modern "pet" situation. Most people nowadays are so out of touch with how animals think. They get a pet and don't train it. It's all kindness , and cookies, and for some reason Cujo snapped. I don't know why. People who are willing to spend the time training a working dog appreciate the edge that pet people can't handle. A friend of mine told me long ago, that the average person wants a stupid dog that does nothing. At first I thought she was joking, but now I think she's right. Even though I'm a working collie person at heart, I can see the dilemma of the bully dogs.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

The quickest way to make an enemy is to call a pit bull a bully.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Sorry Pancho if I offended you, it wasn't intentional.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

wendle said:


> Sorry Pancho if I offended you, it wasn't intentional.


No, it didn't bother me. Just a word of advice if you are ever around a pit bull owner.
A pit bull owner would be very offended if you called their pit bulls a bully.
That is about the worst insult there is to a pit bull owner.


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## Kwings (Dec 21, 2010)

pancho said:


> No, it didn't bother me. Just a word of advice if you are ever around a pit bull owner.
> A pit bull owner would be very offended if you called their pit bulls a bully.
> That is about the worst insult there is to a pit bull owner.


Does the word "bully" mean something different than what I think it means when pertaining to pit bulls?


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Yes, many people have cross bred pits to other breeds to make them look more "bully" as in bulldogish. For a long time they tried to pass them off and register them as pit bulls. The pit bull purist aren't so happy about that. 

Here are some bullies.

Most people would mistake this for a pit.










An extreme bully.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Kwings said:


> Does the word "bully" mean something different than what I think it means when pertaining to pit bulls?


Yes, take a look at the pics Jason posted. Many people think this is what a pit bull is supposed to look like.
Can you imagine either one of those dogs winning a fight with another dog, or any other animal. How about one of those being used as a catch dog.
The pit bull is supposed to be an athlete. Either one of those dogs would have to stop and rest after walking a block. 

Imagine calling a basset hound a greyhound. That is comparable to calling those dogs a pit bull.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Pitbulls have been targeted by groups such as PETA, the HSU and the media because it makes them money. Lots of money. Lets just say that pit bulls, Amstaffs, Staffy bulls and the other "fighting breeds" were banned in the U.S. Do you think that will be the end of bsl? These groups will need to target a new type of dog because they need the stories and donations to keep going. Here is an example of how easy it can be to turn a group of dogs into villains, the beloved LGD.



> *The Plight of the Livestock Guardian Dog*.
> 
> Unknown to many, thousands of dogs are kept each year as guardians of livestock in rural areas and suffer tremendous amounts of abuse. These dogs are left for long periods of times with out human companionship and expected to protect sheep from predators. Because these dogs rarely have human contact they don't get the veterinarian attention they need and are often sick and emaciated. Many farmers expect them to live off the land like the livestock they are raising and brutally kill them whenn they are no longer productive. They are expected to eat any predators they can catch and often times they are not able too eat enough. They end up emaciated and starving like the dog below who was shaved to show her emaciated condition. She was left with a head of goats for years with no humane attention except when she had puppies so the owner could selling them for lots of money. Many times these dogs end up killing and eating the animals they are supposed to be protecting out of starvation and are then killed because they harmed livestock.
> 
> ...


I could keep going but ran out of time but it think I made the point on how easy it is to make any working dog into a villain. Banning dogs won't just stop with pits.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Jason, I can see the LGD joining the list of banned breeds.
Much like the pit bull, the LGD is becoming a fad. People who have 2 lots and 4 hens think they need a LGD to protect them. Some people think they need several.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

Kwings said:


> You ask them why they don't want a dog more publically acceptable like a Golden Retriever
> 
> Dog killed ripped 2-month-old baby's legs off while father slept in other room: police - New York Daily News
> 
> ...


Like I said earlier, ALL dogs (with teeth) can be a danger, it's like do you want to be around a BB gun or a shot gun. Even a BB can put easily an put eye out and are handed out to kids. A shotgun is kept for adult purposes, but you wouldn't want an accident with one. I think it comes down to some folks want threatening dogs and others don't appreciate their little Poopsie is still a canine. What a mix.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Jason, tell me you just wrote that anti-LGD diatribe as an example, and you didn't find it on some AR site? If so, you might want to delete your post. Likely some AR people are going to get ideas by reading it.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

I wrote it in about 10 minutes. I could do the same for any type of working/hunting dogs. Sad thing is if I cleaned it up a little and added a bit more to it I bet I could get it published online and once its in print people believe. Yes it was an example.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

JasoninMN said:


> I wrote it in about 10 minutes. I could do the same for any type of working/hunting dogs. Sad thing is if I cleaned it up a little and added a bit more to it I bet I could get it published online and once its in print people believe.


Yes, you absolutely could get that published, and sadly, people will believe it. People are so dang gullible, you can tell them that water is bad and they will believe it... 

Dihydrogen monoxide is a deadly chemical. Each year, millions of people are killed by it; one tablespoon is enough to kill a human being. And yet, this chemical is marketed to the public in all kinds of products that we use every day. It is so deadly that it can destroy an entire city, yet we literally bathe our children in this chemical because they tell us it is "safe". Dihydrogen monoxide is used to clean industrial flooring and strip paint off houses, yet we are literally drinking it every day because it has been touted by "experts" as "healthy". What will it take before the government wakes up and bans this deadly chemical for good? Your donation will help the fight to get Dihydrogen Monoxide out of our homes, our air, and our food, and to keep our children safe!

..............


Dihydrogen Monoxide, of course, is just a fancy name for H20, or plain ol' water. Everything I typed above is technically true, but extremely misleading. 

This formula is a scare tactic that activists use to trick people into believing their agenda. We can only hope that enough people will be able to recognize this formula when they see it, and that they won't be fooled.... but people on average are weak-minded and lazy. This is why scientific discoveries have to be replicated and peer-reviewed before the findings are released to the public--some people will believe anything in print as truth, add their own personal biases, and run with it.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

JasoninMN said:


> An extreme bully.


Tell me someone photoshopped that photo. Ugh. I thought English Bulldogs were bad; this is horrific. I suppose marginally better is the longer nose so the poor beast can breathe. But to take a Pit Bull and turn it into this, is just... a travesty.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Wolf Flower said:


> Tell me someone photoshopped that photo.


Well, after browsing google images, it appears that either everyone photoshops their American Bully photos, or no one does, because a lot of them look that extreme. Compare this American Bully:










With this dog, a real Pit Bull:









Wow, just... wow. Why would someone take an athletic, able-bodied dog and turn it into that... abomination??? Whether you like Pit Bulls or not, you have to admit, this is a case of extreme hubris on the part of breeders. Typical of Americans who want to take everything and make it "EXTREME". With apparently no regard if it hurts the animal.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolf Flower said:


> Well, after browsing google images, it appears that either everyone photoshops their American Bully photos, or no one does, because a lot of them look that extreme. Compare this American Bully:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You would be surprised at the people who will say the fat bully is the true pit bull and the other dog is a mix.

People are paying a good price for these dogs also, especially if it is blue.
Most people do not call them dogs. Hippo is the term most used.

They do have more english bulldog in them than they do pit bull.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

pancho said:


> You would be surprised at the people who will say the fat bully is the true pit bull and the other dog is a mix.


Oh, I wouldn't be surprised anymore. I've seen people on this very forum do it.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Tried to figure out which breed this one is, but the footage isn't very good . Pitbull &lsquo;left cops looking like sickbay after Battle of Trafalgar&rsquo; | The Sun |News


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

The dog in the picture is a staffordshire bull terrier, I doubt that's the dog that attacked. Pitbulls are banned in London so its hard to say if it was a pit or if its the media embellishing the truth. Now here is a fact 1997 London passed their dangerous dog act banning pitbulls, filas, tosas and dogos. In the following 10 years attacks and fatalities increased by 50%. Proof BSL does not work, people just turn to other larger more powerful breeds with a stronger inclination to human aggressiveness. Now maybe if all their officers carried guns this attack could have been stopped a lot faster. Can you imagine cops not carrying guns here? Banning guns and banning dog breeds doesn't fix anything except put them in the hands of only the criminals.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

I didn't see a link to a video on the link you posted so I found it on youtube. Its hard to say for sure but the dog is too leggy and tall for a staffy bull now that I saw the video. It could be a pit or a it could be a mix, too hard to tell from the video. What amazes me is the cop gets attacked and no one helps. The other officer picks up his hat and walks away! Then the dog gets shot and someone yells "its a same he was shot!" Wow very interesting. 

Here is the video. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbNsBGEQ4Nc]Dog Shot 3 times - Dog Attacks Police Officers In Newham London Five Mauled - YouTube[/ame]


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I was thinking the same thing about the guns, and at first nobody is helping the guy with the dog attached.


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