# couple of calf questions



## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

I have 2 Holstein bull calves that I am raising together. One thing I am wondering about is how to keep them from sucking on each other after they are bottle fed? I know it is important to keep them from sucking on the others umbilical and I have been keeping them distracted long enough to stop that, but it is time consuming and I wonder if there is another way to get them to stop.
The other question is; one of the calves has a lump on his lower jaw area. It is fairly large in size. I stuck my hand in his mouth to see if it was an abscessed tooth or something like that and it seems like a hardening of the cheek skin rather than something in the bone or mouth. Anyone know what this might be? My first thought was bottle jaw, but I don't even know if cows get that...I know it is a sheep thing though. And I don't really know very much about it in the first place.
These guys are just 4 1/2 weeks old and did have their first vaccinations at the dairy before I brought them home.
Thanks,
Trisha


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## Cotton Picker (Oct 10, 2008)

Hi Trisha.....

Here's a link to a good thread that might address your questions...



topside1 said:


> Here is an article dug up by another member and has been attached to the calf raising sticky....Great article, one question though, after reading the info I guess bucket feeding is not really a good idea!! Any thoughts?
> 
> 
> http://www.rd1.com/web/content?in_section=10&in_item=379&in_page=5814


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

Thanks Cotton Picker. Actually I am using a milk bar. I must say I love it too! I had read that thread and that article...that's what finalized my decision to buy one.
Got any other ideas???


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## Cotton Picker (Oct 10, 2008)

Trisha in WA said:


> Thanks Cotton Picker. Actually I am using a milk bar. I must say I love it too! I had read that thread and that article...that's what finalized my decision to buy one.
> Got any other ideas???


If your milk bar has more than one faucet (nipple)... If possible..... You might try running a cattle panel in the middle of it and separating them....


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

Thank you...I had thought about that. I will see what DH has to say. I do have the 5 spot one. 
Any thoughts on the lump on the ones jaw?


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Trisha, let them suck the milk bar nipples at least five minutes or more after the milk is gone...this prevent cross sucking problems. If that does not work, replace the nipples...Topside


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

Thanks Topside. I was worried about them sucking air...good idea!
The milk bar is brand new...are there other nipples I should be looking at?


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## r93000 (Mar 9, 2009)

They can get "bottle jaw", but I believe that is a parasite issue or Johne's disease and symptoms wouldn't have set into one so young yet. It sounds like an absess. They can seem very hard almost bonelike, plus it may be an enflamed lymph node. I'd give the vet a call and ask for an opinion on it. There is also a problem called lump jaw- two types- soft tissue and bony. Soft tissue is easy to treat with lancing and antibiotics. Bony is usually only seen in 2-3 year olds (so not something for your case) and infects the bone. I've attached a link, but bottom line- consult your vet about the lump if it doesn't clear up within a day or two.

http://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_lump_jaw/


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## Cotton Picker (Oct 10, 2008)

Trisha in WA said:


> Thank you...I had thought about that. I will see what DH has to say. I do have the 5 spot one.
> Any thoughts on the lump on the ones jaw?


Hi Trisha.....

Could just be an abscess, caused by an infection of a new tooth coming in.... Perhaps a wisp of hay puncturing the inside of the jaw...... Could be something a bit more serious.....

Keep an eye on it... The calf's temp (normal range 101 1/2 - 103 degrees).. Overall thrift and body condition, etc..

I would invest in some latex gloves (Nitrile... if you are allergic to latex) and palpate the lump regularly to ascertain if there are any changes.... If it continues to swell.. And yields under pressure...You might want to get a scalpel (Or sharp knife... Or one of those nifty box blade jack-knives)... And attempt to drain it...

If you decide to give drainage a go... Shave the affected area with some electric hair clippers (Wal-Mart cheepies will work)... Use a disposable razor to shave the affected area... Get some Betadine and scrub the shaved area..... Puncture the center of the swelling, being careful not to make too much of a puncture..... If it is full of pus... Or bloody pus... It may be under some internal pressure and will give you a nasty bath... So use caution... Also if you penetrate all of the layers of skin and fail to draw pus you will not want a gaping wound..... 

If indeed there is an issue of pus... Open the incision a bit... If necessary... And apply some gentle pressure to the swollen area to facilitate drainage.... I would than make a mixture of bottled distilled water and Betadine and infuse the abscess with the solution to flush out any residual pus.. Using a syringe as the delivery medium.... Saturate a sterile gauze bandage with Betadine and insert into the incision... This will keep the incision open.... 

Continue to irrigate the abscess pocket daily and change the gauze until (You might wish to procure some hemostats to assist in the removal of the gauze... Tweezers or needle-nose pliars in a pinch... (Get it?... Pliars... Pinch?... Oh well.. You would probably had to have been there.... ) you see a reduction in the swelling..... I am of the opinion that Neosporin (Wal-Mart, triple antibiotic ointment) is a wonder drug for cuts and abrasions..... Get a band-aid that is large enough to cover the incision and dope it up real good with the Neosporin... Apply that to the incision... remove it in two to three days... Observe the healing... And change the dressing..... Repeat as needed until healed...

Of course this is the advice of a non-professional Net-Vet... So take it for what it's worth..... :cowboy:

David

Here's an interesting link.....

http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=38923&start=0


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

Thanks guys. I appreciate the help.
David, I especially appreciate Net-Vet non-professionals who work with cattle daily...those are the ones I am most likely to pay attention to ;-)
And I feel completely comfortable doing the procedure you suggested...lancing an abscess is nothing new to me (just with cattle it is). I just wanted to make sure that was the general consensus before tackling the job.


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## Cotton Picker (Oct 10, 2008)

Trisha in WA said:


> Thanks guys. I appreciate the help.
> David, I especially appreciate Net-Vet non-professionals who work with cattle daily...those are the ones I am most likely to pay attention to ;-)
> And I feel completely comfortable doing the procedure you suggested...lancing an abscess is nothing new to me (just with cattle it is). I just wanted to make sure that was the general consensus before tackling the job.


Glad to be of assistance Trisha....:cowboy:


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Trisha, those milkbar nipples are top of the line. Just let the calves suck till they get tired, the air does them no harm. I let them suck for at least 10 minutes while doing other chores, not cross sucking here....Topside


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

Most likely the lump is a form of calf Diptheria. Same bug that causes foot rot causes calf diptheria which can manifest as lumps, an abcessed/ulcerated tongue or the respiritory form. Most drugs that will take care of foot rot will also take care of the lumps. My favorite was SustainIII pills or Calfspan pills. Nuflor will work too. I would avoid using LA200 or penicillin for it though.


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

randiliana, This is what I found on calf diptheria
"The herdsman observed a week-old Charolaiscalf which was lethargic and becoming very distant from the rest of the herd. The calf had difficulty nursing, diarrhea, and made frequent painful swallowing attempts.

On physical examination, the referring veterinarian noted that the calfs breath had a fetid odor. The cheeks appeared to be swollen and a large lump was located in the left cheek. Excessive saliva dripped from the calfs mouth. The rectal temperature was 105F. Other clinical signs were tachypnea and loud wheezing. On examining the oral cavity, an ulcer was observed on the proximal aspect of the tongue and there was excessive pharyngeal edema. Based on the clinical signs, a diagnosis of calf diphtheria was made."


This calf is healthy and lively with no other symptoms. I would have a very hard time thinking he has calf diptheria, but I very much appreciate your input and the opportunity for me to look up something I had not heard of before.
Trisha


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

That calf would have been an extreme case. We have a few cases of it every year. Some years we just have lumps, some years we have the respiritory form, and we have had the occaisional one with the ulcerated tongue. Same disease, just different manifestations.

http://www.qmscotland.co.uk/analysis/downloads/Calf Diphtheria.pdf

http://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=46356&p=522831#p522831


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

Here are some pictures I took today. I'm not sure if you can see the lump or not...I can because I know where to look.
Let me know what you all think.
Thanks,
Trisha


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

I'm sticking with my assessment. Look the same as what our calves are with diphtheria.


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

randiliana said:


> I'm sticking with my assessment. Look the same as what our calves are with diphtheria.


I thought you might...that's why I posted pictures.
I am not a fan of antibiotics, but will use them if necessary. I do have herbal "antibiotics" that I am willing and able to give though.
What else can you tell me about calf diptheria?


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

Calf Diphtheria is a bad disease to get cleared up if it gets to the Respiritory form. We are talking major treatment, involving several drugs over several days.

I don't know much about many herbal antibiotics, so I cannot advise you there. I really don't have a problem with using antibiotics, as long as they are not over used. I would get some calfspan or Sustain III pills into this calf, or some nuflor. At most you will need 2 treatments.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

I can say, that we have never had a calf go from having the lumps to developing the respiritory form. However, we treat at the first sign of the lumps, so I can't say whether it would progress like that or not.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Randiliana, just for my calf notes: These type lumps are usually clear up with Sustain III in 2 treatments? That's it and the lump goes down? Granted it could be caused by a splinter, torn or tooth problem. I've never had fot rot here, but for future reference, Sustain III also clear up those systoms? Thanks,,,Topside


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

Yes they do, at least any that we have treated. It may take more than one treatment, but I don't think we have treated any more than twice. Penicillin will work sometimes, but not always, so I prefer to use the pills. As long as we are talking about the same Sustain III pills (blue ones that are calf sized) Cause lately up here I can just find the HUGE white ones.

We have never used them for footrot, so I don't know how well they would work. I just use penicillin or Oxytetracycline for that. We don't deal with much foot rot here.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

thanks so much. Here is some other info I dug up...
What is calf diphtheria?
There are two forms of calf diphtheria. The most common is an acute oral (mouth) infection, usually seen in calves less than 3 months old. The second form is usually seen in older calves and affects the larynx (or voice-box), Both forms are caused by the bacteria Fusobacterium necrophorum, which also causes foul-in-the foot and liver abscesses in older cattle.

Clinical Signs
Oral form 
Initial presenting sign may just be a swollen cheek 
Calf may be otherwise bright and active with no temperature 
Examination of the inside of the mouth shows a foul-smelling ulceration and swelling of the cheek 
Temperature may be normal at the start
If untreated more signs develop: 
High temperature 
Coughing 
Loss of appetite and depression 
Difficulty breathing, chewing and swallowing 
Swollen pharyngeal region 
Deep ulcers on the tongue, palate, and inside of cheeks 
Pneumonia

Usually only a few calves in a batch are infected though outbreaks can occur where hygiene is poor

Laryngeal form: 
Coughing : Moist and painful 
High temperature 
Loss of appetite and depression 
Difficult breathing, chewing and swallowing 
Pneumonia
Diagnosis
The diagnosis of calf diphtheria is usually based on the clinical signs. 
For one-off cases rule out other problems such as BVD and foreign bodies by getting your vet to do a thorough oral 
examination 
Bacteriology can be also useful. 
A post-mortem can confirm the ulcerative nature of the disease, particularly in calves with the laryngeal form
Treatment
Early prompt treatment is important as early treatment is much more effective 
Separate the infected animals and isolate them 
Antibiotics and pain killers are effective in most cases 
The laryngeal form is much more resistant to treatment. Get veterinary advice
Prevention
Fusobacterium necrophorum is a normal inhabitant of cattle intestines and the environment. Under unhygienic conditions, infection may be spread on feeding troughs and dirty milk buckets. Some of the contributory factors for occurrence of this disease include abrasions in the oral mucosa (such as those from erupting molar teeth), poor nutrition and the presence of other diseases present in young calves.

If animals are closely confined, the spread of this infectious disease can be prevented by thoroughly cleaning and disinfecting of all calf feeders. Young calves must be examined daily to identify early stages of the disease.


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## r93000 (Mar 9, 2009)

Interesting calf diptheria info, thank you for sharing. Now I have to wonder if I've seen this before and treated it like regular oral absess and just gotten lucky on the antibiotic choice.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Is this lump/diphtheria problem more prevalent in some parts of the country than others? I see dairy farms with lots of foot rot on confined cows and I rarely see a beef animal on pasture limp. The beef animal normally heals on its on and the problem IMO is not foot rot with them. As far as lumps and knots on jaws all the problems (one or two in the last 5 years) have been from infection and believed to have started inside the mouth.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

Definitely it is more prevalent in confined cattle. Most diseases are. Foot rot is more common in wet areas, or at wet times of the year. The moisture allows the hoof to soften up, and makes it easier for the animal to injure the hoof and for the bacteria to enter the wound. Cattle in feedlot type situations often are in wet or damp pens, or there are areas (around water bowls) that stay wet.

As far as calf Diphtheria goes, it is most common in calves UNDER 3 months of age. We have never had a case in a calf older than that. You could most likely go with the assumption that if the calf is older than that it is probably not caused by diphtheria.


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Great subject, I'm going copy and paste post #23 into the calf raising sticky...


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

I sure appreciate all the help and advice here. I will keep you posted to the progress/treatment/and out come.


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