# Dog Help, New Homesteader



## Striver (May 2, 2015)

I'm in the process of buying a small farm and fulfilling my dream of getting back to the land.

My goal is to have chickens, rabbits and goats, and I'm thinking of the canine help I'll need to succeed.

My main goal with dogs would be preventing predation. I know coyotes and hawks are an issue in my area. But, I also know a dog can be dangerous to livestock if not trained properly. If the dog would also be good as a family protector from human threats, that would be a plus, but secondary. Keeping deer and such out of the garden would be a big help too.

1) What would be the best breeds?
2) What information on training would be best? 
3) I'll be working off the farm about 3 days a week. How will this affect training and supervision?
4) Having a small flock of chickens and other birds, small herd of goats and rabbits on 2.5 acres, how many dogs would be optimal?
5) Would it be best to have a dog for the goats, one to patrol the farm yard, one to live in the house for family protection, etc.?
6) Not being a big fan of cats, could dogs pick up the slack of keeping rats and mice away?

Thanks


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Striver, is that 2.5 acres you mention only for the goats/rabbits/chickens or does that include human housing? If that is your total farm, you really don't need a LGD (livestock guardian dog). What I would suggest is a general farm dog with protective instincts. My favorite is a German Shepherd; however, there are others who prefer a different breed. It is a matter of taste as well as what you are able to train...and the latter is more important. Here is a picture of the GS I taught. I got her just weaned and she had a strong prey drive; however, at that time I, also, had a "mixed-breed" that I had already trained; so this mix (Apache, the white one in the picture below) helped me train the GS.

The GS breed is not one I've found who keeps rats/mice away. She did keep every other predator (including those that fly) off the place while, at the same time, did not harm my guineas/fowl. (My homestead is only 6 acres, completely fenced; and all my animals free-range.)


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

I also would chose a German Shepard in that situation. Good luck


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

Knowing your area would help. Please consider adding a location to the upper right hand side which will help people give you better information. 

next and this is important!! I see you are new with this as your first post. Do not take any information you receive as a personal attack. You will find HT to be a very helpful place full of very helpful people. However, being helpful also means being honest, so If the information you receive does not go along with what you have in mind understand it is meant to steer you away from something that may cause you problems, not meant to discourage you in your plans.

Now to answer your questions. I do not believe there is a BEST breed. Just like anything else each breed will have its good traits and each breed will have its bad traits, finding a balance you can live with is the key. local availability and budget quite honestly in most cases is more than likely the final deciding factor. What you have described as your requirements is a very tall order even for a professional trainer and the best dog available. I would put meeting all of those requirements, quite honestly at impossible for a novice trainer and the average dog. Just being honest. Grown dogs can sometimes be bought that are trained to do a particular job such as a guardian of farm livestock. Expect to pay good money for such a dog. A free dog or rescue dog usually has some issue which is why they are free or at the rescue. Now, beofre everyone jumps on the "My dog is great and came from a rescue" I will say there are exceptions, but they are just that "Exceptions" not the general rule. A puppy from good stock is a good option, but be ready to spend time training and do not expect to have a finished guard dog until the dog is 2 to 3 years of age. Will they do some guarding before that? Sure, but they will be at least this age before I would consider them a finished dog, which you can trust to truly protect a flock.

If you only have 2.5 acres. The money would be better invested in my opinion in a good perimeter fence and an electric fence charger, not a LGD.

The 3 days gone will slow the training process for sure, but is workable. You will need a place to keep the dog away from livestock initially until it can be trained and by trained I mean lots of supervised visits with the animals.

Just to give an outline. I raise pigs, goats, sheep and various poultry. My dogs when brought home wioll spend at least the first 3 months living with a pig of similar size. Then they will be supervised when let out with other animals (goats, sheep) and put up when not supervised. When this all goes well with no chasing etc. then we will introduce them to poultry. No need to attempt this with a young puppy it will not go well, they are not mature enough to resist the urge to chase such flighty little animals. The poultry will be the most difficult part of training. NEVER leave an untrained dog with poultry, NEVER. You will get a habit started which you may never cure. 

So this is a very condensed version of some of the issues. The one thing I would want you to understand is getting a dog to guard your livestock in the beginning will not be a help, but will be another responsibility you take on which will take up a lo of your time and offer very little help for a while. In the end 1 or 2 years down the road, it will be a very bog help to you, but not in the beginning. This is not a ready made solution that you simply purchase and turn lose and you do not have to worry about. A good fence on the other hand is such a solution. With out a good perimeter fence you will be wasting your money on a dog and probably making enemies of your neighbors as well. For the protection of your animals and the dog, invest in a good perimeter fence first, before ever considering a dog. The dog will be the second line of defense, AFTER the fence.


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## arnie (Apr 26, 2012)

the original Mt Cur . is The homesteders / small farm dog . I live on a farm surrounded by woods and predators from bears down to possoms I have free range chickens ,goats rabbits cow, pig Honey bees . before getting my first cur my losses were high even with no neighbors for a mile stray dogs were a big problem as well . I have not lost a chicken in years skunks or bears don't bother my bees .I canned over a hundred quarts of sweet corn ,and no strangers get near without me knowing yet meter readers or children need have no fear of being mauled . these dogs are the most intelligent dogs I have ever known , not being in the AKC show ring or popular with the pet market has kept them away from the puppy mills and indiscriminate breeders .bred by small farmers and hunters for many generations to for there needs . though I would sudjest getting a puppy or very young dog as they are very loyal , attached and trainable and fearless .though I never had to train mine not to kill chickens ;come when called.or watch out for me or mine when feeding the livestock they are there when needed not under foot . If you can fine a breeder ( often a hunter ) in your area this is the dog to have sleeping under your porch or in your barn . there are a few types out there I have the orginal Mouantian cur ; but the southern black mouth cur is a great dog on the farm as well . my chicken n goats are safe from varmits ,and I can wander about the farm and woods never fearing a wild hog, bear, or, big foot they will even tree squirrel or **** , and deer are not allowed in the garden . Think I'm bragging ; well I am proud to have them .


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

arnie said:


> and I can wander about the farm and woods never fearing a wild hog, bear, or, big foot .



You have meter readers and Big Foot? We have eliminated both in Alabama!

I've seen Mountain curs used for a variety of jobs and sport but I'm not sure if they have different stains that are genetically predisposed to instinctually take up a certain task or if they can just be trained to do anything. We took my neighbors to track a wounded buck that had never been hunting and he was absolutely amazing. First we thought he had run off then we saw him standing about 200 yards away and as soon as we made eye contact he turned and continued to track. This went on for five hours including wading upstream in a creek 1/4 mile and swimming across a 5 acre pond. Finally he cornered the buck and fought him darting in and out until we could get another bullet in him.


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## Striver (May 2, 2015)

Thanks for all the help everybody. I think I'll start with a German Shepherd and see how that goes.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

I grew up with an English Shepherd. http://www.englishshepherd.org/ They are well known rodent/varmint killers. Even ours, as laid back and passive as she seemed, would go way out of her way to dispatch chipmunks in our yard. A rare one here and there might end up being kind of apathetic to rodent control. But when you go through the list of working dogs they compiled on that site, you see over and over again, "Actively patrols for pests/rodents."

You would have to test your puppy over time to see if they'll hang with the chickens and watch over them, but a lot of people with English Shepherds use them for that. I don't think German Shepherd is a bad pick if you want something that will be likely to confront two legged predators. But in the future, if you want to add another versatile dog, an English Shepherd would do nicely for you I think.


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## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

Not to disagree with Muleman - whose opinion I value highly - but regarding poultry....in my opinion there is no age too young to start a dog with poultry. Rather than leaving it until they are old enough to actually do damage, I prefer to start mine with poultry ASAP. Disclaimer: my homestead consists of 10 acres and the poultry have access to free-range all of it. The sheep and goats are confined to their pasture except when we choose to let them out to "mow" the yard surrounding the house.

In December I brought home a Cairn Terrier puppy whose designated purpose in life is simply to be my constant companion. I planned him for over a year before bringing him home and in that year, everyone told me "A cairn will never be good around poultry - their prey drive is simply too high". This from cairn breeders who'd been raising them for decades.

I honestly was pretty nervous about the addition to the household, hoping I had not just brought in a huge problem when we had two dogs already who were poultry safe and everyone gets along just fine. But the day came when it was time to bring the puppy home - he was 10 weeks old. The very next morning he accompanied me to do my chores. At 6 pounds he was smaller than many of my birds and they muttered amongst themselves about the new visitor to the coop. He trotted around smelling the new smells and in doing so, inadvertently wandered close to a hen who was being watched over by a rooster. The rooster flogged the puppy, who yelped and ran to me for comfort. Fast forward and he is 7 months old. He is full-grown - and completely poultry safe. He accompanies me each and every time I do chores, trotting comfortably around the chicken yard, drinking out of the waterer alongside the birds.

The newest challenge came just in the last two weeks as my broody hens became mothers and started to teach their newly hatched offspring how to forage. I was concerned that the little bundles of fluff would be viewed differently than the fully feathered adults and watched him closely. I needn't have been concerned. To avoid upsetting the mothers, he lay down near them and instead of watching them intently, seemed more focused on looking AWAY from them - almost as though he wanted to reassure the mother hens that their chicks were of no interest to him. I watched for 10 minutes as a mother hen scratched only 6' from the puppy - who never did make eye contact with her. The hen seemed to know the puppy was no threat to her chicks. Since then he has trotted in and around the mother hens and chicks, still with no interest in giving chase at all.

I do think the key to success was introducing him to them when he was a tiny puppy, rather than waiting until he was older. His introduction to them was "Ouch - chickens can hurt me" and that lesson seems to have stuck so that even now that he is full grown and big enough to prey on them, he doesn't know that is an option.

Likewise, I allowed a ewe to teach him not to mess with sheep. For the first 6 weeks he was here, he trotted around the ewes while I did my chores and the ewes just chewed their cuds contentedly, knowing he was not a threat to them. Then lambing season began and in an instant the sheep - in the puppy's mind - turned from contented cud chewers to relentless puppy chasers. In defense of their lambs he was pinned to the fence by a charging mother sheep on more than one occasion. That lesson also imprinted on him and he now knows that sheep are to be given a wide berth - and never, ever get too close to the lambs.

Ironically, the cows and horses, who have never hurt him, are therefore not deemed to be the least bit scary. It scares ME to see him wandering around under their feet, or taking short cuts under them while engaged in play with the other dogs. However apparently, until he is kicked or stepped on, the BIG animals are not nearly as scary as the sheep and chickens.


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## mooose (Nov 24, 2013)

Arnie
I've had mountain curs (squirrel dogs) for over 25 years and think they are the smartest and most trainable dogs there are!!


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## CountryMom22 (Nov 27, 2014)

Moboiku, that was so true (and funny). That pup learned more and more quickly from the roo and the ewes than he ever would have learned from all the "leave it" commands you could have given! I've always believed that animals are the best teachers as they do understand each other. Humans are the ones on the outside looking in. Good work!


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