# Who has had enough?



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I think I've had enough. I've had enough of wildcat judges ruling like they're gods. I've had enough of illegal aliens killing people in the streets. I've had enough of sanctuary cities. I've had enough of government chipping away at my Constitutional rights. I've had enough of a biased media brainwashing everyone with government propaganda. You may have already guessed, I've had more then enough of bleeding heart liberals. I've had enough of schools graduating students who are functionally illiterate. I've had enough of a government who chooses what laws to enforce. I've had enough of socialism and the welfare state. I've had enough of people who won't get off their fat lazy rear ends and support themselves and their families. I've had enough of anyone who claims I owe them something. I've had enough of riots. I've had enough of political correctness. I've had enough of ALL politicians. 

I've had enough. It's time to make a stand. It's time to act.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Where are you moving? I've heard the countries in Central America are good...


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I have had enough of people proving Gruber correct.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

no really said:


> I have had enough of people proving Gruber correct.


I agree. Gruber was indeed correct if people think whining about issues on the internet is a way of changing anything...


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> People are stupid if they think whining about issues on the internet is a way of changing anything...


Yep, yet here you are with the rest of us. :thumb:


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

no really said:


> Yep, yet here you are with the rest of us. :thumb:


To be fair I haven't whined about a single thing today, well yet anyway.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

...the teeter bar does seem to be quite a bit towards one side...


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> To be fair I haven't whined about a single thing this today, well yet anyway.


:buds: well I have, not on the forum but to my boss.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> I agree. Gruber was indeed correct if people think whining about issues on the internet is a way of changing anything...


When we don't agree with you it's whining?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Only one little problem with acting.

It may get you noticed by the government and they may take action to prevent your actions. Your business, your taxes, your pond, your children, etc. Big Brother really is watching.

In the current climate, there are too many local, state, and federal bureaucrats just waiting to punish you for doing or saying something they don't like.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> When we don't agree with you it's whining?


No, whining is feeble complaining without resolve to do anything about it. An example, "The kid whined about the having to do chores."


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

JJ Grandits said:


> I've had enough. It's time to make a stand. It's time to act.


So whats the plan?


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Unless you live as a hermit, the problems of humanity are going to find you. 

But honestly, ask yourself, how many of those things you have "had enough" of, have personally affected you, other than ticking you off? How many changed your life?

Sounds to me like someone needs to take a break from the media hype. The sun will still rise in the east, your dog still loves you, and if you look around at real people instead of tv and the internet, you'll find a lot of good.

Take a deep breath. This too shall pass. 

And, don't forget to vote anti-incumbent!


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

JJ all I can and plan to do now is 1.Question all authority 2. Pay my property taxes really late each year. 3. Going up $50 per month in Jan. on all my rental units.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

mnn2501 said:


> So whats the plan?


Don't elect Clinton, Bush, Trump, etc?
The only way out is to elect leaders who unite, not divide, leaders who will solve problems, not create them.
But everybody is too busy playing Donkey vs. Elephant to do the smart thing and kick corruption to the curb.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> Where are you moving? I've heard the countries in Central America are good...


I'm not moving anywhere. I'm staying here and fighting the good fight. You are more then welcome to seek out some banana republic that suites your political beliefs.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> Only one little problem with acting.
> 
> It may get you noticed by the government and they may take action to prevent your actions. Your business, your taxes, your pond, your children, etc. Big Brother really is watching.
> 
> In the current climate, there are too many local, state, and federal bureaucrats just waiting to punish you for doing or saying something they don't like.


Then I guess Ill take my chances. Things cut both ways.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

mnn2501 said:


> So whats the plan?



Stand up and act like a man. Be a rabid advocate for what I see as being right. Get in peoples faces and be loud about it. put my money where my mouth is.

basically the same thing I've been doing for awhile now only cranking it up several notches. Maybe a whole bunch of notches.

I love this Country. I won't sit still and watch it get destroyed. I have to leave something for my children and grand children.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

TripleD said:


> JJ all I can and plan to do now is 1.Question all authority 2. Pay my property taxes really late each year. 3. Going up $50 per month in Jan. on all my rental units.


Isn't paying your property taxes really late just going to increase what you have to pay because of the late fees?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

JJ Grandits said:


> Stand up and act like a man. Be a rabid advocate for what I see as being right. Get in peoples faces and be loud about it. put my money where my mouth is.
> 
> basically the same thing I've been doing for awhile now only cranking it up several notches. Maybe a whole bunch of notches.
> 
> I love this Country. I won't sit still and watch it get destroyed. I have to leave something for my children and grand children.


The problem is that as a conservative, we tend to not want the government to do something rather than want them to do something. When we get upset about something they've done, we're happy if we can get it partially undone.

How do you communicate an agenda when it is to NOT do something?


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Well...Jefferson said a little bit of revolution was good for a country every now and then....


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> The problem is that as a conservative, we tend to not want the government to do something rather than want them to do something. When we get upset about something they've done, we're happy if we can get it partially undone.
> 
> How do you communicate an agenda when it is to NOT do something?


I want them to do something.
Uphold the Constitution
uphold the law
Secure our borders
Put American interests first


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> Only one little problem with acting.
> 
> It may get you noticed by the government and they may take action to prevent your actions. Your business, your taxes, your pond, your children, etc. Big Brother really is watching.
> 
> In the current climate, there are too many local, state, and federal bureaucrats just waiting to punish you for doing or saying something they don't like.


I agree, but then there is that point where so many have had their heads down for so long that they eventually find a boot on it.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Cornhusker said:


> Don't elect Clinton, Bush, Trump, etc?
> The only way out is to elect leaders who unite, not divide, leaders who will solve problems, not create them.
> But everybody is too busy playing Donkey vs. Elephant to do the smart thing and kick corruption to the curb.


If only we could trust that our elections are real and fair....


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> To be fair I haven't whined about a single thing today, well yet anyway.


That's ok, it's still early.....


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

TripleD said:


> JJ all I can and plan to do now is 1.Question all authority 2. Pay my property taxes really late each year. 3. Going up $50 per month in Jan. on all my rental units.


You can do other things, think outside the box but within the law. Take a few pages from the liberal's own play book.

The number one thing to do is to go Galt.

Make just what you need to to survive. The less you make the less the government can take from you. AAMOF, if you make 'less enough' the government will actually pay you, if your moral code will allow it. I suggest that everyone with such a moral code "take advantage" of every possible government 'program' out there. The more leaches on the beast the quicker we can suck it dry. Google "ticks kill moose" for an example of what I'm talking about.

Let your property get to almost the point the local government starts being concerned about you meeting its codes. The worse it looks the lower its value and therefore the less in property tax you have to pay. It doesn't have to really be bad just look that way. A secondary benefit is the fact it looks like there's nothing there worth stealing so when things get bad you are less of a target.

The second thing to do is get politically active. And I don't just mean voting. Find people you can support and if they are running pound the pavement for them. If they are not try to get them to run. Or run yourself. You may not be able to do much but a journey of a thousand miles starts with one step.

Call, email and snail mail each and every government official you can and express your view. Praise them for what they do good and politely suggest they reconsider their stand where they are not. If you don't like their vote on an issue let it be known to the public. Letters to the newspaper are free as are postings on social media sites. Print and radio ads aren't really that expensive and heck renting a billboard in today's market doesn't cost an arm and leg. Remember pols HATE 'bad' media. 

A lot of state and local judges are elected. Check out their rulings, public records. When the time comes make sure everyone knows about any 'bad' ones they have made or the good ones depending. 

Show up at every open government meeting and request time to address it. Adjust your speech for who ever is meeting. Especially budget meetings. Request a copy of the proposed budget before hand and have concrete plans on where and how to cut. Force them to justify spending every dollar. 

Use government's own red tape to strangle it. Check federal, state and local laws, codes and regulations. Then check each governmental agency to see if they are following all of them. Example do ALL of your state and local (and even federal) government's buildings meet ADA codes? If not you can force them into expensive retrofits. More blood drained.

What do you want to accomplish and how legally radical do you wish to get?

If you really want to be a gadfly start watching/video taping government cars with a dash cam as you go about your daily business, don't follow them you could run into some stalking laws. If you see one make a turn or lane change w/o proper signaling or pass you doing more then the speed limit get the tag number and report it. Then follow up on the complaint. You might want post your dash cam video on social media sites. Just be advise once you are on their radar you'll be watched very closely.

If you live in an area where there are a lot of "day laborers" go to where they stand in the mornings with a video camera, if you can find one of the old big ones which looks like a TV crew's one yet. When ever a work truck pulls up make a big show of taping them. You don't even have to really tape them just the idea will run some off. If you do get the names of the companies a letter to the editor of your local newspaper about how you saw companies X, Y and Z there and the possibility of illegal activity, specifically tax evasion, might cause some strange reactions. Again social media sites could be your friend.

I have to be honest with you. I no longer think the nation as it was, a place where free individuals with the minimum of governmental control, can be saved. We have passed the tipping point socially and economically. There are too many people who do not think they should be held responsible for themselves nor their actions. If something bad happens to them it must be someone else fault and therefore someone else should, no MUST, correct it and pay the cost for that correction. There are too many people who see the government as the supplier of their wants and needs. The combination of ever growing government government budgets, increasing debt and current debt load (federal, state and local) can not be overcame before economic collapse.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> I think I've had enough. I've had enough of wildcat judges ruling like they're gods. I've had enough of illegal aliens killing people in the streets. I've had enough of sanctuary cities. I've had enough of government chipping away at my Constitutional rights. I've had enough of a biased media brainwashing everyone with government propaganda. You may have already guessed, I've had more then enough of bleeding heart liberals. I've had enough of schools graduating students who are functionally illiterate. I've had enough of a government who chooses what laws to enforce. I've had enough of socialism and the welfare state. I've had enough of people who won't get off their fat lazy rear ends and support themselves and their families. I've had enough of anyone who claims I owe them something. I've had enough of riots. I've had enough of political correctness. I've had enough of ALL politicians.
> 
> I've had enough. It's time to make a stand. It's time to act.


And you feel this way with a majority of Supreme Court judges being appointed by republican presidents. I can only imagine your reaction if a majority were to be appointed by democrats.


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

> For I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins: they afflict the just, they take a bribe, and they turn aside the poor in the gate from their right.
> 
> 13 Therefore the prudent shall keep silence in that time; for it is an evil time.
> 
> 14 Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you,


The only person you can really change is yourself. When the majority changes themselves for the better the nation will get better, when the majority change for the worse the nation gets worse. It looks to me like the majority of people in this nation are changing for the worse. As far as government is concerned, we get the government the majority deserve.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> I agree. Gruber was indeed correct if people think whining about issues on the internet is a way of changing anything...


Well, it sure worked out for those whining about the battle flag.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> I agree. Gruber was indeed correct if people think whining about issues on the internet is a way of changing anything...


Did you miss the part about it's time to act, it's time to take a stand? :happy:


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> Well, it sure worked out for those whining about the battle flag.


If it worked it wasn't whining.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> If it worked it wasn't whining.


Hmmm.

Double standards much? 

The problem is it may have worked too well. It may come full circle and something will be gone you may care about soon. 

Add I have said many times, I care nothing about the battle flag. Never have either. I do care about the beliefs of all people though. Not just the few.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Txsteader said:


> Did you miss the part about it's time to act, it's time to take a stand? :happy:


I've found most who really intend to act don't waste time talking about it ahead of time, but give *after action* reports


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I've found most who really intend to act don't waste time talking about it ahead of time, but give *after action* reports




I seem to recall a couple groups that debated in and out of the social media of the day that won this country and eventually formed its constitution. Funny thing about MOST, it's been estimated that about 3% of the population were involved in the ACTION, less than 3% of the population won their day in court recently largely due to social media.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

dlmcafee said:


> I seem to recall a couple groups that debated in and out of the social media of the day that won this country and eventually formed its constitution. Funny thing about MOST, it's been estimated that about 3% of the population were involved in the ACTION, less than 3% of the population won their day in court recently largely due to social media.


Nice spin, but it's still talk on the internet so far.
I've been hearing the same talk for several decades


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

dlmcafee said:


> I seem to recall a couple groups that debated in and out of the social media of the day that won this country and eventually formed its constitution. Funny thing about MOST, it's been estimated that about 3% of the population were involved in the ACTION, less than 3% of the population won their day in court recently largely due to social media.


Things of it is now with social media these malcontents can get organized and then get Pay for demonstrating in different areas that they don't even live in they just hop a bus and move from one place to another when in fact what seems like 100's to 1,000's that are against something the truth of it it is just a Handful of folks. Less then a 100 but because of social media and misinformation going around for the low informed folks they seem to get TV time on the news.
When it is the biggest sham that has every taken place on the American people.


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I've found most who really intend to act don't waste time talking about it ahead of time, but give *after action* reports


Action reports from many on numerous subjects, but you have a narrow set of reports that are acceptable based on your responses. 

I've come to expect you would respond just like the below.




Bearfootfarm said:


> Nice spin, but it's still talk on the internet so far.
> I've been hearing the same talk for several decades


I am sure I have not read all of your posts. But I do know that of the ones I have seen, I have never read one where you "participated" in discussion with an idea, or a pondering of something you hadn't thought about. Only BFF statements of fact.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Double standards much?
> 
> ...


Nope, no double standard. Whining accomplishes nothing because nothing is put into it. Obviously people put something into getting the flags removed because they're coming down. Right?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> If it worked it wasn't whining.


So if your kid throws a fit and you give him what he wants to get him to stop he wasn't throwing a fit?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I am sure* I have not read all of your posts*. But I do know that of the ones I have seen, I have never read one where you "participated" in discussion with an idea, or a pondering of something you hadn't thought about. Only BFF statements of fact.


It makes little difference to me if you base your opinions on limited data

These repeated complaints about my posts show you prefer to whine rather than to take action

Put me on ignore if you don't like what I say.

You've chosen your clique, and made it quite obvious


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

watcher said:


> So if your kid throws a fit and you give him what he wants to get him to stop he wasn't throwing a fit?


That isn't what I said.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Woolieface said:


> If only we could trust that our elections are real and fair....


I don't trust anything from this government


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Nevada said:


> And you feel this way with a majority of Supreme Court judges being appointed by republican presidents. I can only imagine your reaction if a majority were to be appointed by democrats.


You mean more single issue bigots such as Obama appointed?


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I've called, e-mailed, signed petitions, attended meetings and marched on washingtion in the largest protest ever-they are ignoreing us.The government does not fear us. Now, I wait and keep my powder dry.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope, no double standard. Whining accomplishes nothing because nothing is put into it. Obviously people put something into getting the flags removed because they're coming down. Right?


Like those that whine about Obama being picked on?


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It makes little difference to me if you base your opinions on limited data
> 
> These repeated complaints about my posts show you prefer to whine rather than to take action
> 
> ...


Touchy?
That's just silly.

I've made 7 posts in the last week. Well, 8 counting this one.
You've posted 250+ times in the same week. I've hardly had repeated complaints to you or anyone else.

I think a little "doth protest too much" going on.

It's okay, I have cheese for my whine. Since my clique is whiners. Just remember it's only whine to the opposing view. Works both ways.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I've hardly had repeated *complaints* to you or anyone else.


Denial is just sad:
Post # 9
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ad...pport/540454-sincere-question-moderators.html



> Since my clique is whiners. Just remember it's only whine to the opposing view. Works both ways.


That's your label, and it's still your choice to read my posts.



> I think a little "doth *protest too much*" going on.


I agree
You're the one protesting.
I told you how to solve your problem

The topic is about taking action, not endless complaining


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

7thswan said:


> I've called, e-mailed, signed petitions, attended meetings and marched on washingtion in the largest protest ever-they are ignoreing us.The government does not fear us. Now, I wait and keep my powder dry.



I've done the same except it was Albany not Washington. The point is, never give up. Get louder and louder and louder still. It's time to rattle the walls.

If the government does not fear us that is their problem. It means they are overconfident. A very serious mistake in politics or in battles.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> That isn't what I said.


Ok so if your kid was whining for something and you gave it to him to get him to shut up he wasn't whining? After it worked to get him what he wanted and you said:

"If it worked it wasn't whining."


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Nevada said:


> And you feel this way with a majority of Supreme Court judges being appointed by republican presidents. I can only imagine your reaction if a majority were to be appointed by democrats.



This goes far beyond the Democrat /Republican thing.
When I said i had enough of POLITICIANS I meant all of them.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Double standards much?
> 
> ...


Flags are such great symbols.

I think I'll put some money into a company that manufactures Confederate flags. Their stock is going to go through the roof.


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

One? Wish you'd absorbed the logic in that thread you referenced.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

JJ Grandits said:


> This goes far beyond the Democrat /Republican thing.
> When I said i had enough of POLITICIANS I meant all of them.


Same here. They all lost me. We had our midterms and they sent out the 2 worst( bohner and mcconnel} to tell us to sit down and let obama have whatever he wants. If they think I'm going to support the repub. party while they suck up to obama , they must have some kind of new drug I'm unaware of.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

partndn said:


> One? Wish you'd absorbed the logic in that thread you referenced.


There is no "logic" in making false allegations and then not backing them up with proof.

It's just more pointless whining

If you would like to make me the topic, start a new thread of your own, where you can list all of your complaints, and I can tell you I don't care, so then we can all move along.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

"whiners" is a way of saying "sit down and shut up". That sentiment has a lot in common with the government.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Cornhusker said:


> When we don't agree with you it's whining?





Irish Pixie said:


> No, whining is feeble complaining without resolve to do anything about it. An example, "The kid whined about the having to do chores."





mreynolds said:


> Well, it sure worked out for those whining about the battle flag.





Irish Pixie said:


> If it worked it wasn't whining.





mreynolds said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Double standards much?
> 
> The problem is it may have worked too well. It may come full circle and something will be gone you may care about soon.





Irish Pixie said:


> Nope, no double standard. Whining accomplishes nothing because nothing is put into it. Obviously people put something into getting the flags removed because they're coming down. Right?





watcher said:


> So if your kid throws a fit and you give him what he wants to get him to stop he wasn't throwing a fit?





Irish Pixie said:


> That isn't what I said.


ummm.....

So, yeah....


Irish Pixie said:


> If it worked it wasn't whining.





watcher said:


> So if your kid throws a fit and you give him what he wants to get him to stop he wasn't throwing a fit?


...and, then...


Irish Pixie said:


> That isn't what I said.


Anyway, I'm not going to take issue with this, because I don't care to argue about it, but I *GOTTA* know; How is it possible that you've gone these last 6 years without being offered a cabinet position?

I mean, seriously, you're amazing.

Can we hear your "What difference, now, does it make?!?!"
I bet its so spot-on it's eerie.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Woolieface said:


> "whiners" is a way of saying "sit down and shut up". That sentiment has a lot in common with the government.


Sometimes words just mean what they mean.

If someone complains more than once about a self inflicted injury, without trying to stop it, it's just pointless whining.

There's no need to look for hidden meanings in everything.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

watcher said:


> Ok so if your kid was whining for something and you gave it to him to get him to shut up he wasn't whining? After it worked to get him what he wanted and you said:
> 
> "If it worked it wasn't whining."


When I was walking from the beach with my four year old grandson recently and he was tired from too much fun and wanted to be carried because it "hurt to walk" I could have dismissed it as typical tired kid whining. Of course when I looked at the bottom of his foot and saw the large splinter he had picked up on the dock stuck in his heel it went from whining to a legitimate problem. Sometimes perspective is everything and it depends on whose foot the splinter resides in.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Gads, guys (and gals) this started out to be a legitimate thread and I really had hopes for it to be a good discussion.
What did I get? mostly a bunch of immature people taking pot shots at one another - _a microcosm of the US today._


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Isn't paying your property taxes really late just going to increase what you have to pay because of the late fees?


Yep it sure does. That cost me an extra $500 each year. That money doesn't go into the current years budget . It all has to go in a special account . It has to be spent on repairs of existing county property. 

A few years ago the county wanted to build a new $10,000,000 court house ,but couldn't get the votes. They had to take 2 million out of that special account and remodel the 100 year old court house. I'm glad the tax collector told me what had to happen with the delinquent tax money.:happy2:


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Wolf mom said:


> Gads, guys (and gals) this started out to be a legitimate thread and I really had hopes for it to be a good discussion.
> What did I get? mostly a bunch of immature people taking pot shots at one another - _a microcosm of the US today._


. Watcher has some excellent suggestions, especially regarding local involvement. For those of you who haven't ever attended a school board, town or city council, roads commission or any other local meeting you might be in for a surprise. The people who serve aren't always power hungry beaurocrats. They're often your neighbors and folks you see everyday in your community who are trying to do their best with limited resources to make things better. Now, you may disagree with what better is but if you make the effort to show up and participate you might just be able to steer things in your direction. Of course, you might just find people like me already sitting there already steering.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

TripleD said:


> Yep it sure does. That cost me an extra $500 each year. That money doesn't go into the current years budget . It all has to go in a special account . It has to be spent on repairs of existing county property.
> 
> A few years ago the county wanted to build a new $10,000,000 court house ,but couldn't get the votes. They had to take 2 million out of that special account and remodel the 100 year old court house. I'm glad the tax collector told me what had to happen with the delinquent tax money.:happy2:


I didn't know that. Is it a specific rule to your tax area?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> I didn't know that. Is it a specific rule to your tax area?


N.C. that's what the tax the head tax collector told me. I've known him for years.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Cornhusker said:


> Like those that whine about Obama being picked on?


Actually its more like those who LIE about what others say about Hillary. LIE. Then go on HT member's Fb pages to trash talk.

There are lots of nasty folks in the world & they seem to be a lot of the same who cannot tell ordinary folk from politicians. Much the same ones who defend politicians who are lawyers who defend guilty child rapists.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

I have not seen so many ...... spaces in a post for a long time.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

....mouths drop open everywhere on HT

but I know the feeling. 

psst.... you forgot to "-----" one of the naughty words


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Dude,
This lying, corrupt, inept administration is keeping illegals here. That is your answer to: "Why?".
EOs changed the immigration laws. EOs changed the deportation rules. I'm not sure what allowed them to release 130K FELONS over the last 2 yrs, might be more, I can't remember the #s. Many of those have killed, raped, stolen from American citizens all over again. 

But hey! Its ok, soon they'll be able to vote.


----------



## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)




----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Pixie said: There's no need to look for hidden meanings in everything.

It is *AS IF* she tells others to do what she does not have to...

Didn't you do what you just told everyone in the statement above with the whole "AS IF" attack?

You said over and over that "AS IF" can mean only one thing - "to pretend".


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Shine said:


> Pixie said: There's no need to look for hidden meanings in everything.
> 
> It is *AS IF* she tells others to do what she does not have to...
> 
> ...


What statement above? I'm confused.


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

...lol - look for "hidden meanings"


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Shine said:


> ...lol - look for "hidden meanings"


Oh, I get it! You're trolling or baiting or whatever. I thought I'd said something profound again.


----------



## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

My post got deleted. Apparently you can't say ----,----, --------,hell,and ------ off.

Well isn't that just great?


----------



## Scott SW Ohio (Sep 20, 2003)

Dudeatlarge, profanity has never been acceptable here.


----------



## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

Scott SW Ohio said:


> Dudeatlarge, profanity has never been acceptable here.


How do you get profanity from blank spaces? Please enlighten me.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Dude, 
Used to be we couldn't say 'crap'. You'll still see some of us who learned the hard way saying 'carp' b/c they let us do that.

Your post was good, just ixnaytheussingkay.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Tricky Grama said:


> Dude,
> Used to be we couldn't say 'crap'. You'll still see some of us who learned the hard way saying 'carp' b/c they let us do that.
> 
> Your post was good, just ixnaytheussingkay.


Haha, I just figured every time I read "carp", someone's auto-incorrect had gotten involved.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

dudeatlarge said:


> How do you get profanity from blank spaces? Please enlighten me.


I think it may have been the "heck" word.


----------



## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

The problem I see to bring down or reigning in the system, is that ultimately it will only be able to bring itself down. Then, at that point, it creates a vacuum that will be filled. Sometimes things get better, sometimes things get worse. But, ultimately, our family is just trying to NB e able to survive the cycle as well as possible.

Historically, there is a lot you can uncover showing that frequently, the downfall of many empires, conquerors, etc was predicated on them pushing things too fat themselves or making bad offensive moves. Then their enemies were able to switch from defense to offense and finish things.

I don't think any particular group has a shot at doing anything to counter the path we're on as a nation globally. They will have to bring themselves down. We just need to be ready to stand clear.

I know that may be a little harsh or pessimistic to some, but it's actually brought me grea comfort once I processed that idea all the way through.

The reason is because all societies have eventually fallen in history, yes. But, that only means the ruling class gets reshuffled. Some or most of the actual populations survive as long as they are able to feed,clothe, shelter, educate, etc themselves within their own personal sphere or community.

Sometimes, they even prosper because the upheaval of the system structure allows them to pursue opportunities or be unbound from oppressions. So, we have withdrawn from a lot of the political process, and have chosen to focus on keeping our family healthy and self sufficient as much as possible, so that whenever the govt finally becomes its own undoing, our family will have preserved the skills that will allow us to survive as best as possible so we can be able to find our way I cwhatevet they new system us without being completely at the mercy of others.


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Oh, I get it! You're trolling or baiting or whatever. I thought I'd said something profound again.


Well... you were the one that suggested not to look for hidden meanings, Kettle, meet Mr. Pot.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Shine said:


> Well... you were the one that suggested not to look for hidden meanings, Kettle, meet Mr. Pot.


CCR- trollin' trollin' down the river... :sing:


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> CCR- trollin' trollin' down the river... :sing:


She's trolling you over something I said back on page three, Post # 57



> Originally Posted by Shine View Post
> Well... *you were the one* that suggested not to look for hidden meanings, Kettle, meet Mr. Pot.


If one wants to make accusations, one should have proof, and in this instance, the proof shows someone doesn't pay attention:
Post # 57



> Bearfootfarm
> 
> 
> Join Date: Jul 2006
> ...


Someone is due an apology


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> She's trolling you over something I said back on page three, Post # 57
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dang it! I knew I hadn't said anything of the sort and now I have "Proud Mary" stuck in my head. So not cool.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

BFF is that your other sock?



That was a joke folks. Someone accused BFF of being someone else's sock ( if my memory is correct)in a joke and he got banned because of it. Please no banning because of this joke.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> now I have "Proud Mary" stuck in my head. So not cool.


It's cooler to me if I picture Tina Turner instead of CCR.
John Fogarty doesn't do as much for me


----------



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> No, whining is feeble complaining without resolve to do anything about it. An example, "The kid whined about the having to do chores."





Bearfootfarm said:


> There is no "logic" in making false allegations and then not backing them up with proof.
> 
> It's just more pointless whining


And how, exactly, are your and Pixie's posts constructive, in any way?

Fact is, they're not. So why do y'all bother posting?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Txsteader said:


> And how, exactly, are your and Pixie's posts constructive, in any way?
> 
> Fact is, they're not. So why do y'all bother posting?


Tell me, who are you to make such disparaging and demanding remarks about two other members posts? I know aren't a moderator because they would never be that tacky. So I must conclude that you just doesn't like what we post. To which I say, suck it up buttercup, I have just as much right to post here as you do.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Txsteader said:


> And how, exactly, are your and Pixie's posts constructive, in any way?
> 
> Fact is, they're not. So why do y'all bother posting?


I pay them to post because it makes me happy. :happy:


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> Tell me, who are you to make such disparaging and demanding remarks about two other members posts? I know aren't a moderator because they would never be that tacky. So I must conclude that you just doesn't like what we post. To which I say, suck it up buttercup, I have just as much right to post here as you do.


You most certainly do have the right to post as much as you want. I do believe, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but the recent banter is an attempt to create enough thread drift to defuse my original post. 

That being said, the point is taking action against the remaking of American society. Obama said he wanted to fundamentally change America. For some reason people thought it would be in a positive direction. The last few years have proved them incredibly wrong. Liberalism and their progressive movement is destroying our Country. If anyone advocates these political philosophies They are in my eyes an enemy to our society and I feel it is my duty to defeat, interfere, derail, and if necessary persecute those who would practice them.

That's just the way it is cupcake.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

By the way, paying your taxes is loose change can be a form of protest but did anyone know that postage stamps are a form of legal tender? 

Paying $1000.00 in pennies and nickles doesn't have much effect after they are put in the bank. But a $1000.00 in .02 and .03 cent stamps makes a statement.


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Another reason to get forever stamps.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Txsteader said:


> And how, exactly, are your and Pixie's posts constructive, in any way?
> 
> Fact is, they're not. So why do y'all bother posting?


How is pointing out *the truth* "not constructive", and where were you when Shine was ragging on Pixie for two pages for something *she never said* if you're concerned with all posts being "constructive"?

It appears you, like many others, exhibit a double standard.

Put me on ignore if *you* want to do something constructive


----------



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> Tell me, who are you to make such disparaging and demanding remarks about two other members posts? I know aren't a moderator because they would never be that tacky. So I must conclude that you just doesn't like what we post. To which I say, suck it up buttercup, I have just as much right to post here as you do.


But you don't think it's disparaging to label JJ's post as 'whining' or ask when he's going to move out of the country? :shrug:


----------



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> How is pointing out *the truth* "not constructive", and where were you when Shine was ragging on Pixie for two pages for something *she never said* if you're concerned with all posts being "constructive"?
> 
> It appears you, like many others, exhibit a double standard.
> 
> Put me on ignore if *you* want to do something constructive


The truth as you see it, perhaps. Doesn't mean everyone sees it that way.

I don't put people on ignore....there's no fun in that. :cute:


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Txsteader said:


> The truth as you see it, perhaps. Doesn't mean everyone sees it that way.
> 
> I don't put people on ignore....there's no fun in that. :cute:


So it wasn't true that Shine blamed Pixie for something I said?
What version of that truth do you see?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

JJ Grandits said:


> You most certainly do have the right to post as much as you want. I do believe, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but the recent banter is an attempt to create enough thread drift to defuse my original post.
> 
> <snip whining about a lame duck president>
> 
> That's just the way it is cupcake.


Or it could just be thread drift. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. 

Why is it that conservatives think everything is a conspiracy? It's odd.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

JJ Grandits said:


> By the way, paying your taxes is loose change can be a form of protest but did anyone know that postage stamps are a form of legal tender?
> 
> Paying $1000.00 in pennies and nickles doesn't have much effect after they are put in the bank. But a $1000.00 in .02 and .03 cent stamps makes a statement.


Who does paying your taxes in pennies or stamps make a statement to? The poor clerk that has to count all of them?


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> By the way, paying your taxes is loose change can be a form of protest but did anyone know that postage stamps are a form of legal tender?
> 
> Paying $1000.00 in pennies and nickles doesn't have much effect after they are put in the bank. But a $1000.00 in .02 and .03 cent stamps makes a statement.


So have you done that?
How did it go?


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> Who does paying your taxes in pennies or stamps make a statement to? The poor clerk that has to count all of them?


The poor clerk is paid by the hour. Counting is her job. It makes a statement because your taxes (which you are protesting) have been legally paid in a way that denies the use of the payment to the government receiving it. I thought you were smarter then that.


Thread drift involves a gradual change of subject not an instantaneous collection of inane ramblings. Please learn the difference.

Please do not edit my posts. That is not your job.


Whining, seriously? If showing concern over the state of our Country is whining in your book, or is it the fact that your politics have created this mess and you and your compatriots do not have the guts to admit it?

I await you're whining answer.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> It makes a statement because your taxes (which you are protesting) have been legally paid in a way that denies the use of the payment to the government receiving it. I thought you were smarter then that.


If you pay in "legal tender" how are you denying their use of the payment?

Can't they use them as postage?

I don't think you've thought this through, since small change and stamps still hold value
(And most won't really take them in the first place)


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

JJ Grandits said:


> The poor clerk is paid by the hour. Counting is her job. It makes a statement because your taxes (which you are protesting) have been legally paid in a way that denies the use of the payment to the government receiving it. I thought you were smarter then that.
> 
> 
> Thread drift involves a gradual change of subject not an instantaneous collection of inane ramblings. Please learn the difference.
> ...


You are exacting right. Counting money and completing paperwork are a clerks job. All clerks everywhere.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Txsteader said:


> And how, exactly, are your and Pixie's posts constructive, in any way?
> 
> Fact is, they're not. So why do y'all bother posting?


Ooooh, oooh, I know I know! Pick me, pick me!!


----------



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> So it wasn't true that Shine blamed Pixie for something I said?
> What version of that truth do you see?


I actually hadn't seen the posts between Pixie and Shine, so obviously wouldn't comment on them. As for what Shine was referring to, he/she will have to answer that.

The 'truth' you were _originally_ referring to pertained to your claim of 'whining'.....or, at least that's what I perceived it to mean.


----------



## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

And I bet that clerk did NOT stand there and COUNT those pennies either. I bet she TOOK them over to a bank and used there change machine counter. LOL
Just like when you bring in rolls and rolls of coins. The Back BREAKS them OPEN and puts them in their counter. They Do not and WILL not just take your word that the rolls are correct.~!


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

If I misread a post and replied incorrectly, I apologize. 'tiz what a man with scruples does when in error. Please proceed as you deem fit.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> If you pay in "legal tender" how are you denying their use of the payment?
> 
> Can't they use them as postage?
> 
> ...


They are legal tender issued by the federal government.
They can be used as postage but at a cost exceeding their value.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> They are legal tender issued by the federal government.
> They can be used as postage but *at a cost exceeding their value*.


The cost doesn't exceed their value

A 2 cent stamps costs 2 cents and gets you 2 cents worth of postage.

"Legal tender" doesn't cost more than it is worth.

Have you ever paid a bill with stamps or small change?


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The cost doesn't exceed their value
> 
> A 2 cent stamps costs 2 cents and gets you 2 cents worth of postage.
> 
> ...


Really? And I suppose that the time spent on putting them on envelopes is free? How about the time spent recalculating and making up the difference in postage? I guess that is also free? how about the general overhead, is that free too?

Another example how the liberal mind is incapable of estimating the TRUE cost of something. It is one of their major failings.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> Really? And I suppose that the time spent on putting them on envelopes is free? How about the time spent recalculating and making up the difference in postage? I guess that is also free? how about the general overhead, is that free too?
> 
> Another example how *the liberal mind* is incapable of estimating the TRUE cost of something. It is one of their major failings.


It doesn't cost more to use the stamps than to deposit money and buy postage, or trade the stamps for postage on their meters, so you're just making it up as you go along.

I suspect you've never actually done it anyway, since you've avoided that question a couple of times now.

And what's with the "liberal" crap?
Why the name calling instead of just sticking to the topic?


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It doesn't cost more to use the stamps than to deposit money and buy postage, or trade the stamps for postage on their meters, so you're just making it up as you go along.
> 
> I suspect you've never actually done it anyway, since you've avoided that question a couple of times now.
> 
> ...


first off, I said it could be done, not that I did it. Secondly, you are again wrong concerning turning them in or even trading them for postage meters. ANY ACTION ADDS TO THEIR COST!!!

Now, you tell me what is with the liberal crap? It is the liberal crap that is the subject of the topic.

I know.........It's my topic!

Now, what is name calling? Because I stated that liberals can never figure the actual cost of their wonderful idea's?

That is not name calling. That is factual reporting.

Please, review the posts from the beginning. You're obviously confused.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I said it could be done, not that I did it


You also said the thread was about taking action, to which I replied, those who really act don't waste time talking

You've shown it's mostly talk.


----------



## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Hey JJ,

In my book, talking is a form of action. There was a huge shift after 9/11 and the patriot act, in my opinion. People became hesitant to speak freely, and fear and intimidation and concern over what people's words meant and indicated became a much larger issue than pre 9/11. People were looking for signs everywhere and demanding the govt not t miss any signs.

I think it was a huge leap towards stiffling people openily criticising the govt for their actions or lack of actions.

And, we've slowly begun the march back to trying to be able to speak freely without fear of undue repercussions. I think a big leap was actually made with the tea party groups, and to some extent even the occupy movementst.

So use your words buddy. And, be an encouragement to others to feel like they can use theirs. Cause people aren't likely to consider any other actions to protest or demand accountability and changes when they're too shy of even using their words to talk about things that they think are wrong or frustrating.


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Well, forever stamp purchased for 39 cents in 2007 is now worth 49 cents..
So paying a debt with a 2007 forever stamp is a great way to invest and get a head.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You also said the thread was about taking action, to which I replied, those who really act don't waste time talking
> 
> You've shown it's mostly talk.


Naw, I do a lot more. This is just entertainment.
And as our friend gibbsgirl stated, talking is action. As is sending letters, e-mails, phone calls, joining organizations, giving financial support, posting signs or even placing highly critical bumper stickers.

When you hear a big aggressive barking dog you stay out of the yard. You may not see the dog, but you hear the barking.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Naw, I do a lot more. This is just entertainment.
> And as our friend gibbsgirl stated, *talking is action*


Talking on the internet is just talking

Repeating phrases like "patriot act" in most any topic is just talking

Some probably think the Govt is listening in (when they aren't out tagging random chickens) 

:TFH:


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

What makes people think that we just post...I am actively on the board of directors for A.C.T......I bet others too are working locally to make a difference.

ACTâs Price wins on grocery tax question
â¢ Alaska Supreme Court says voters should be able to weigh in after borough passed ordinance contrary to voter decision
By Naomi Klouda
Homer Tribune

The Alaska Supreme Court on Friday issued a ruling in favor of a citizen who wants to let voters decide a grocery tax matter.
The court reversed lower court decisions in James Price v. Kenai Peninsula Borough and Johni Blankenship, clerk.
Price of the Alliance of Concerned Taxpayers had challenged the borough in a 2010 lawsuit after Borough Clerk Johni Blankenship turned down his 2009 referendum. The citizen initiative presented the required number of signatures. It sought voter opinion to repeal a borough law that allowed cities like Homer and Seldovia to levy grocery sales tax even during a voter-decided tax holiday October to June.
âItâs my hope that this ends the practice of denying lawfully submitted initiatives,â Price said. âIâm hoping this will stop the practice the borough is using. They use the clerk process to stop the initiative process.â
Some of us are doing more... locally and state wide.

ACTâs Price wins on grocery tax question | Homer Tribune
homertribune.com/2014/08/acts-price-wins-on-grocery-tax-question
Aug 12, 2014 Â· Kenai Peninsula Borough and Johni ... Price of the Alliance of Concerned Taxpayers had ... were impacted by the boroughâs sales tax. But âhome â¦
AK (at large) Congressional District
connect.freedomworks.org/node/12525/groups
Create a New Event. Add a rally, forum, town hall, or other event to collect RSVPs, give attendees directions and more. Import Your Existing Events
Alaska | State High Courts Blog
statehighcourtsblog.org/category/states/alaska
The resulting litigation, culminating in the Alaska Supreme Courtâs decision Alliance of Concerned Taxpayers v. Kenai Peninsula Borough, ...
Price v. Kenai Peninsula Borough :: 2014 :: Alaska Supreme ...
law.justia.com âº â¦ âº Alaska Supreme Court Decisions âº 2014
Appellant James Price appealed a superior court order affirming the Kenai Peninsula Borough Clerk's ... and Kenai and Seward, which ... Alliance of Concerned ...


Spotlight on Juneau" April 23, 2005 issue
www.akvoters.org/sl042305.htm
There are a number of fundamental taxation and spending issues brewing in the Kenai Peninsula Borough. A ... The group called Alliance of Concerned Taxpayers ...


Soldotna man announces mayoral candidacy | Peninsula ...
m.peninsulaclarion.com/.../soldotna-man-announces-mayoral-candidacy
Soldotna man announces mayoral candidacy. ... intent to run for the Kenai Peninsula ... of the Alliance of Concerned Taxpayers â a group that ...
Recent Alaska Supreme Court Decisions


www.courtrecords.alaska.gov/webdocs/opinions/sp.htm
... library's Alaska Case Law Service. Supreme court slip opinions are ... of Concerned Taxpayers, Inc. v. Kenai ... Alaska Wildlife Alliance v. State ...


Every court battle takes years much of which the only action is writing checks to lawyers ....but the group is state wide and we do meet with and vet candidates for all offices from congress,Senate,governor mayors, assembly, school boards, and service areas. We sponsor, debates, meet and greets, fundraiser bills, state petitions, and ballot measures. 

We have lowered
Sales tax
Increased homeowner's property tax exemption
And successes in getting term limits locally
We find people to run for offices
We attend meetings and we testify


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I am actively on the board of directors for A.C.T...


Maybe you should tell them they haven't updated their website since June 2013

http://act-kpb.org/


> WELCOME
> To The Official A.C.T. Website
> 
> *Latest* eAlert - June 3, *2013* Assembly Meeting...
> ...


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Talking on the internet is just talking
> 
> Repeating phrases like "patriot act" in most any topic is just talking
> 
> ...



I didn't mention the patriot act. Matter of fact I don't think I repeat any phrases. At least not on purpose. I try being original.

Why would you think the government is listening while your tagging chickens? What ever you do to your chickens is your business as far as I'm concerned. I mean within reason. I don't know what the slang term for "tagging" is but then again, maybe I don't want to know.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I think one of the most effective things someone could do is to be active in the anti-illegal alien movement. If the movement gets big enough and loud enough, candidates like Bush, Rubio, and Christie likely won't get the nomination.


----------



## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

I mentioned the patriot act.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

gibbsgirl said:


> I mentioned the patriot act.


I think the Patriot act bears mentioning in a thread of things from the government we're sick of.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

gibbsgirl said:


> I mentioned the patriot act.



OK, I knew it was not me. I guess someone's confusion is getting more pronounced. I agree it should be mentioned more too.


----------



## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

If you go read my post I put it in, I don't think I misplaced it's mentioning at all.

But, opinions vary......

Eta. It was post number 112.


----------



## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

JJ Grandits said:


> The poor clerk is paid by the hour. Counting is her job. It makes a statement because your taxes (which you are protesting) have been legally paid in a way that denies the use of the payment to the government receiving it. I thought you were smarter then that.
> 
> Who counts by hand anymore? Coin counting machines made this sort of childish protest obsolete years ago.
> 
> ...


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

emdeengee said:


> JJ Grandits said:
> 
> 
> > The poor clerk is paid by the hour. Counting is her job. It makes a statement because your taxes (which you are protesting) have been legally paid in a way that denies the use of the payment to the government receiving it. I thought you were smarter then that.
> ...


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. fortunately they do not yet have a stamp counting machine. Especially when you use different denominations, tear them into single stamps, and mix them up.


Give us one example where that has been done. No picture never happened.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

painterswife said:


> Give us one example where that has been done. No picture never happened.


I don't know if it ever has been done. It is an EXAMPLE, a concept, an idea, a possible method to display a protest against a government policy. It's really pretty simple. I'm amazed some are so baffled by it.
Next time I will use smaller words.


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Setting goal requires communication.
I love the stamp idea... New to me as a saving tip.
All the pc stuff has started to wake up many more people.
So, I am hoping that there will be more people to push this socialist movement back.

Yes, we are being told our efforts are gutless by the team of destruction 
.....just a mind game by a bunch of folks that wish for us to join the team rank and file of mindless Borg seeking for assimilation vs individual freedoms to follow our own path.

The fear of failure has dampened to willingness to strive for the American dream and to seek instead the comfort of poverty American style. .......just enough to survive.

An attempt to guilt and punish those who still strive and do succeed via taxation and crys of income inequality being unfair.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

JJ Grandits said:


> I don't know if it ever has been done. It is an EXAMPLE, a concept, an idea, a possible method to display a protest against a government policy. It's really pretty simple. I'm amazed some are so baffled by it.
> Next time I will use smaller words.


So it's an internet story? I understand now.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

painterswife said:


> Give us one example where that has been done. No picture never happened.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_currency_(United_States)


The link above is tricky to see for some reason, click it, then click the first link listed and it takes you there.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/131548360715?lpid=82&chn=ps



Here's a letter from the postmaster in the NY Times, from that period.
http://www.nytimes.com/1862/10/02/news/post-office-stamps-as-currency-it-is.html 



Irish Pixie said:


> So it's an internet story? I understand now.


Nope.
The internet wasn't around in 1862.:grin:


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> *I didn't mention the patriot act*. Matter of fact I don't think I repeat any phrases. At least not on purpose. I try being original.
> 
> Why would you think the government is listening while your tagging chickens? What ever you do to your chickens is your business as far as I'm concerned. I mean within reason. I don't know what the slang term for "tagging" is but then again, maybe I don't want to know.


I never said you mentioned it.




> Originally Posted by JJ Grandits View Post
> 
> I agree wholeheartedly. fortunately they do not yet have a stamp counting machine. Especially when you *use different denominations, tear them into single stamps, and mix them up.*


You're still talking about things you've never done, and aren't going to do


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> I don't know if it ever has been done. It is an EXAMPLE, a concept, an idea, a possible method to display a protest against a government policy. It's really pretty simple. I'm amazed some are so baffled by it.
> Next time I will use smaller words.


The word you're looking for is "fantasy"


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

JJ Grandits said:


> I don't know if it ever has been done. It is an EXAMPLE, a concept, an idea, a possible method to display a protest against a government policy. It's really pretty simple. I'm amazed some are so baffled by it.
> Next time I will use smaller words.


I don't see anything wrong with it. Money is a commodity same as corn or pork bellies or stamps or roofing a house even. Some people just may not know this. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity

_In economics, a commodity is a marketable item produced to satisfy wants or needs.[1] Economic commodities comprise goods and services.[2]_


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I don't see anything wrong with it.


No one said there was anything wrong with it.

It's just that no one really does it, and most places wouldn't accept it anyway, so wasting all the energy talking about it is pointless.

Even the "proof" offered that it's been done was over 100 years old and talked about it simply being used as postage and not for paying taxes or utilities


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

There weren't utilities in the period of 1862-1876, but they were certainly used to pay taxes. They were issues of currency from the Treasury Dept and legal tender.
I could not find anything from the gov't sites as to whether they were or were not accepted today. They didn't say.

http://www.moneyfactory.gov/images/Currency_notes_508.pdf


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> They were issues of *currency* from the Treasury Dept and legal tender.


Those are "currency notes"
They no longer exist.
They were replaced by coins, and they are not the "postage stamps" being discussed here


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

A few corrections.
First, one of mine.
One of the first utilities was in Cleveland in 1867, Gas & Light, so I was off a little on the dates of origin.

Second, the postage currency wasn't replaced by coins, it was instituted by the fact that people were hoarding coins for the metal and were dropping out of circulation, that's when the idea of stamps were used as another alternative paper currency and a way to get people to buy them with coins to get coins back in circulation.

Third, although my first google search hit on those fractional currency stamps, I found at least one SCOTUS case involving regular postage stamps in a transaction. but I'll note the defendant was charged with fraud.
Not because it wasn't legal tender, but because he was running a scam with mass mailings and basically using them as credit while the statutes said they had to be exchanged for cash or coin.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

I may have the case facts a little skewed, I couldn't find the trial brief and it's late. It looks like the guy tried to pay his insurance by promising to do the mass mailings representing his premium with the stamps.

Hoffman v. John Hancock Mutual Life Insurance Company 
92 U.S. 161 (1875)


Oh, and fourth.....

You CAN still buy them on ebay, so they do exist.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> No one said there was anything wrong with it.
> 
> It's just that no one really does it, and most places wouldn't accept it anyway, so wasting all the energy talking about it is pointless.
> 
> Even the "proof" offered that it's been done was over 100 years old and talked about it simply being used as postage and not for paying taxes or utilities


Not lately no. Doesn't make his point not valid.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Nor yours


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

kasilofhome said:


> Setting goal requires communication.
> I love the stamp idea... New to me as a saving tip.
> All the pc stuff has started to wake up many more people.
> So, I am hoping that there will be more people to push this socialist movement back.
> ...



They're scared. They know that when it hits the ground they have nothing. Kind of like watching a storm come in. a very nasty storm.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

You can buy a newspaper with a peppermint candy if the other person is agreeable. It does not make the peppermint legal tender.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Peppermint candy is not issued by the federal government.

Come on my friend, you're grasping at straws.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

JJ Grandits said:


> Peppermint candy is not issued by the federal government.
> 
> Come on my friend, you're grasping at straws.


No just the government issued Kool-Aid.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

The bottom line is that a backlash is coming. The recent push of the PC crowd mixed with the results of liberal policies as only accelerated it. Not to mention our out of control government. Ever been in a bar fight? That special feeling you get before the first punch is thrown and everything breaks loose? Thats where we are today. The PO factor is going through the roof. Something is going to happen.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

JJ Grandits said:


> Peppermint candy is not issued by the federal government.
> 
> Come on my friend, you're grasping at straws.


Read her post again. Emdeengee said, "You can buy a newspaper with a peppermint candy *if the other person is agreeable*. It does not make the peppermint legal tender."

It's still only an internet story unless you've done it. Pay your school taxes with stamps this September and link the newspaper article. Then we can talk. OK?


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Postage stamps were invented for a sole purpose - to move the mail. To prove that the fee for delivery had been paid.

In the beginning...there were no stamps and it was the recipient who had to pay for the delivery. If they chose to. And of course many did not given the exorbitant price of delivery.

Perhaps this will explain the difference between postage stamps and postage currency. And the fact that it ended in 1876.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_currency_(United_States)

Treasurer of the United States Francis E. Spinner has been credited with finding the solution to the shortage of coinage: he created postage currency (which led into the use of Fractional currency).[15] Postage (or postal) currency was the first of five issues of US Post Office fractional paper money printed in 5-cent, 10-cent, 25-cent, and 50-cent denominations and issued from 21 August 1862 through 27 May 1863.[16] Spinner proposed using postage stamps, affixed to Treasury paper,[17] with his signature on the bottom (see illustration below). Based on this initiative, Congress supported a temporary solution involving fractional currency and on 17 July 1862 President Lincoln signed the Postage Currency Bill into law.[3] The intent, however, was not that stamps should be a circulating currency.[18]
The design of the First Issue (postage currency) was directly based on Spinner&#8217;s original handmade examples. Some varieties even had perforated stamp-like edge. While not actually legal tender, postage currency could be exchanged for United States Notes in $5 lots[19] and were receivable in payment of all dues to the United States, up to $5.[nb 2] Subsequent issues would no longer include images of stamps and were referred to as Fractional Currency. Despite the July 1862 legislation, postage stamps remained a form of currency until postage currency gained momentum in the spring of 1863.[20] In 1863, Secretary Chase asked for a new fractional currency that was harder to counterfeit than the postage currency. The new fractional currency notes were different from the 1862 postage currency issues.[nb 3] They were more colorful with printing on the reverse, and several anti-counterfeiting measures were employed: experimental paper, adding surcharges, overprints, blue end paper, silk fibers, and watermarks to name a few. Fractional currency shields which had single sided specimens were sold to banks to provide a standard for comparison for detecting counterfeits.[21] Postage and fractional currency remained in use until 1876, when Congress authorized the minting of fractional silver coins to redeem the outstanding fractional currency.[15][22]


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Forever stamps increase in value.
2007....39 cents.....is now worth 49 cents..
I can legally sell and trade at current market value.

Interest rate at a bank is worth less.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

But they are still STAMPS used for postage - an item the sole purpose of which is to represent payment for postage.

I bought a can of beans for 39 cents last year and I can sell it this year for 49 cents or $4.90 depending on current market value or who is willing to pay what for it. I could even accept a 49 cent stamp as payment if I was so inclined but this is not a monetary transaction but a trade and solely at my discretion.

I would love for those who think that stamps can be used to pay debt such as taxes or fines to post a link to a verifiable example or try to do this themselves and video tape the transaction. Otherwise it is just an urban/rural/I'm going rogue in protest legend.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Forever stamps increase in value.
> 2007....39 cents.....is now worth 49 cents..
> I can legally sell and trade at current market value.
> 
> Interest rate at a bank is worth less.


They still aren't "legal tender" and it's still just internet rambling.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Give it a rest. Your politics have set the stage for a revolution. You argue about stamps because you have nothing serious to add to the thread defending your leftist policies that have brought our Country to ruin. People have had enough. They are going to act to defend their freedom and it will not be pretty. This is not a war of words. You can not be protected by the law you so openly ignore. Who will defend you? Who will keep you safe? Do you think that this can quietly be swept under the carpet with all your other filth?

You folks better do some serious thinking. This is not a debate. This is not a joke. This is not some BS argument where we vent our spleens and then go home. This is getting real. How far are you willing to go?


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

JJ Grandits said:


> Give it a rest. Your politics have set the stage for a revolution. You argue about stamps because you have nothing serious to add to the thread defending your leftist policies that have brought our Country to ruin. People have had enough. They are going to act to defend their freedom and it will not be pretty. This is not a war of words. You can not be protected by the law you so openly ignore. Who will defend you? Who will keep you safe? Do you think that this can quietly be swept under the carpet with all your other filth?
> 
> You folks better do some serious thinking. This is not a debate. This is not a joke. This is not some BS argument where we vent our spleens and then go home. This is getting real. How far are you willing to go?


I believe the real question here is how far are you since you are the one looking to start the revolution. :thumb:


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> Give it a rest. Your politics have set the stage for a revolution. You argue about stamps because you have nothing serious to add to the thread defending your leftist policies that have brought our Country to ruin. People have had enough. They are going to act to defend their freedom and it will not be pretty. This is not a war of words. You can not be protected by the law you so openly ignore. Who will defend you? Who will keep you safe? Do you think that this can quietly be swept under the carpet with all your other filth?
> 
> You folks better do some serious thinking. This is not a debate. This is not a joke. This is not some BS argument where we vent our spleens and then go home. This is getting real. How far are you willing to go?


Ya right. I have been hearing about this revolution for decades. It is all talk from a bunch of internet blowhards. They have done nothing more than talk and won't.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Patchouli said:


> I believe the real question here is how far are you since you are the one looking to start the revolution. :thumb:


Revolutions are not started. They are forced on people. I ask, what will you force us to do?


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

But someone has to take the first step in a revolution. Someone has to think and organize and band people together. There has to be a common purpose. And there has to be support for the plan. What are people actually willing to do?  It is easy to propose revolution with a few beers in your belly but most people don't have the stomach for killing their countrymen and women and they certainly don't want to be domestic terrorists.

There are probably hundreds of thousands of people (perhaps millions) who do not like certain aspects of any branch of government or the direction of a state or country but how many of those are really willing to go into a civil war? Because that is what you are proposing. Most don't want to see their lives and the lives of their family ruined and their country torn apart so they continue to work for political and social change. And of course you can't always get what you want but sometimes you get what you need.


----------



## Scott SW Ohio (Sep 20, 2003)

JJ Grandits said:


> Give it a rest. Your politics have set the stage for a revolution. You argue about stamps because you have nothing serious to add to the thread defending your leftist policies that have brought our Country to ruin. People have had enough. They are going to act to defend their freedom and it will not be pretty. This is not a war of words. You can not be protected by the law you so openly ignore. Who will defend you? Who will keep you safe? Do you think that this can quietly be swept under the carpet with all your other filth?
> 
> You folks better do some serious thinking. This is not a debate. This is not a joke. This is not some BS argument where we vent our spleens and then go home. This is getting real. How far are you willing to go?


Is the purpose of the revolution to topple the current government and institute something more to the liking of conservatives? I guess it is possible this could be done, though it seems very unlikely to me. But if those were your ends, and you somehow achieved them, how would you prevent the surviving populace from voting us back to a political endpoint essentially the same as we have now?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

JJ Grandits said:


> Revolutions are not started. They are forced on people. I ask, what will you force us to do?


I think he has answered your query...

Liberals never stop pushing till everyone has reached their patient last straw.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> I think he has answered your quarry...
> 
> Liberals never stop pushing till everyone has reached their patient last straw.


It is how this country works. We are free to push all we want.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

kasilofhome said:


> I think he has answered your quarry...
> 
> Liberals never stop pushing till everyone has reached their patient last straw.


They are going got such a little too far someday and all heck is going to break loose, and they will be sorry. This is so stupid, dumb, and down right on the verge of being idiotic.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> You argue about stamps because *you have nothing serious to add* to the thread


Now you're just mad because your claims have been proven false.
Just more rambling


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

We send people to Washington to do what WE want them to do. Not what they THINK is good for the rest of the country that a few hot heads get press time and persuade them to go against their constituents. Things should AWLAYS be put to a VOTE in cases like this nonsense.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Now you're just mad because your claims have been proven false.
> Just more rambling


As it turned out, there were quite a few false claims proven wrong on this thread.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

JJ Grandits said:


> Revolutions are not started. They are forced on people. I ask, what will you force us to do?


Me personally? I have no authority whatsoever so I don't see how I am going to force you to do anything. What you do is entirely up to you.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

emdeengee said:


> It is easy to propose revolution with a few beers in your belly but most people don't have the stomach for killing their countrymen and women and they certainly don't want to be domestic terrorists.


I don't think you understand that in such a scenario, your enemy wouldn't be people such as are on this board. That is just the propaganda you will believe when the media tells you that the federal government was "forced" to take "action" on civilians whom they will call domestic terrorists for being dissidents.

Your real enemy will be those feeding you the lies that make you comfortable. That is, until they come for you as well.

The decent people of this country don't want to start a war...they want to protect their families.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

emdeengee said:


> But someone has to take the first step in a revolution. Someone has to think and organize and band people together. There has to be a common purpose. And there has to be support for the plan. What are people actually willing to do? *It is easy to propose revolution with a few beers in your belly but most people don't have the stomach for killing their countrymen and women and they certainly don't want to be domestic terrorists.*
> 
> There are probably hundreds of thousands of people (perhaps millions) who do not like certain aspects of any branch of government or the direction of a state or country but how many of those are really willing to go into a civil war? Because that is what you are proposing. Most don't want to see their lives and the lives of their family ruined and their country torn apart so they continue to work for political and social change. And of course you can't always get what you want but sometimes you get what you need.


Brava! This had to be repeated. :bow:


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

For me and a few others I know are just opting out as much as possible. I'll be totally off grid within the next 6 months, most of the others I know already are. Was set to work another 8 to 10 years but that depend on certain trends, more likely 4 to 5 years in great financial shape. Cut my income cut taxes.:buds:


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Woolieface said:


> I don't think you understand that in such a scenario, your enemy wouldn't be people such as are on this board. That is just the propaganda you will believe when the media tells you that the federal government was "forced" to take "action" on civilians whom they will call domestic terrorists for being dissidents.
> 
> Your real enemy will be those feeding you the lies that make you comfortable. That is, until they come for you as well.
> 
> The decent people of this country don't want to start a war...they want to protect their families.


Actually that is exactly who your enemy would be. A civil war means one group of citizens fighting another. The military, police and national guards would also be involved - sometimes on the side of the government but sometimes on the side of the rebel/revolutionary/freedom fighter/domestic terrorist group(s). 

In a civil war neighbour kills neighbour, relative kills relative and strangers kill strangers. One political group kills another, one religious group kills another, one tribe, race, nationality background kills another. In a civil war you would be killing people on this board.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

It astonishes me that so many people in life seem to not want to talk about what will happen or whether our govt will eventually fall. I don't wish for bad things to happen. But, I'm not irrational. I fully understand that every society in history has always facaed a fall, conquering, revolutions, upheavals, etc. Every single one. No one living anywhere is in a place that is immune from this fact inevitably.

I appreciate being able to acknowledge it and accept I. It's brought some comfort to know that when it happens, not everyone does or never recovers. I want my family and children to understand these processes, so that whatever generation of my family faces it, we will be prepared to try and survive and function before, during, and after, and keep on going.

The idea of a civil war sucks. But, regardless of any individuals desires, it will eventually happen. So, wanting it or not wanting it is somewhat of a moot point. Everyone who deals with it being an eventual reality will be far more prepared to at least ride it out better than others who want to cling to the it'll never happen here ideas.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

There is a big difference between understanding and even preparing for a civil war and threatening one every time the other citizens believe differently than you do.

Discussing the possibility is not the same. It will not eventually happen. You have no crystal ball just a small portion of the internet ranting and raging.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

emdeengee said:


> Actually that is exactly who your enemy would be. A civil war means one group of citizens fighting another. The military, police and national guards would also be involved - sometimes on the side of the government but sometimes on the side of the rebel/revolutionary/freedom fighter/domestic terrorist group(s).
> 
> In a civil war neighbour kills neighbour, relative kills relative and strangers kill strangers. One political group kills another, one religious group kills another, one tribe, race, nationality background kills another. In a civil war you would be killing people on this board.


The first civil war was not about civilians declaring war on one another. I do believe that was also instigated by government.

You really imagine a scenario where Farmer Bob the Libertarian lays siege to Farmer Brown, the progressive's homestead down the road? Exactly what does that accomplish?

On this side of things, we know who the enemy is...they are the ones who have the power to make slaves of us all. You can't do that to us. 

It's the very rare individual who wants to take an offensive stance, because that's a suicidal stand to take, not to mention against the beliefs of many of us... I am coming from the point of view of someone who is taking a defensive stance against oppression and tyranny.

I hate war. There's nothing I want more than to be left alone by my enemy. It remains to be seen whether or not they'll do that.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

painterswife said:


> There is a big difference between understanding and even preparing for a civil war and threatening one every time the other citizens believe differently than you do.
> 
> Discussing the possibility is not the same. It will not eventually happen. You have no crystal ball just a small portion of the internet ranting and raging.


There is a big difference between paying your bills and borrowing 40% each year to pay them. When 18 trillion turns in 30 trillion I'd rather be around some one with common sense than one with a head in the sand....


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Woolieface said:


> The first civil war was not about civilians declaring war on one another. I do believe that was also instigated by government.
> 
> You really imagine a scenario where Farmer Bob the Libertarian lays siege to Farmer Brown, the progressive's homestead down the road? Exactly what does that accomplish?
> 
> ...


So... bottom line it. If it's not your neighbor exactly who is the enemy?


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> So... bottom line it. If it's not your neighbor exactly who is the enemy?


Anyone with the authority and firepower to harm myself or those I care about and who have a present intent to use it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Woolieface said:


> Anyone with the authority and firepower to harm myself or those I care about and who have a present intent to use it.


I see. Internet stories... and veiled and hinted at internet stories at that. I understand now. Thank you.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Woolieface said:


> The first civil war was not about civilians declaring war on one another. I do believe that was also instigated by government.
> 
> You really imagine a scenario where Farmer Bob the Libertarian lays siege to Farmer Brown, the progressive's homestead down the road? Exactly what does that accomplish?
> 
> ...


I don't have to imagine a scenario because it has already happened in the past and continues to happen around the world. What happened in Yugoslavia, Syria and the Sudan and is happening in the Ukraine is the way of civil wars. It is uncontrollable once it starts. To find out what would really be the situation faced in a civil war I recommend talking to refugees and immigrants from these war torn countries. The inhumanity of normal people towards other normal people - well just horrific.

Personally I do believe that there is the probability of some sort of pointless civil war/uprising happening in the future because of huge economic mistakes, the destruction of the middle class, that there are no middle ground politics and most importantly no diplomatic or legal course of action for separation of the country if certain factions actually wanted this.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> I see. Internet stories... and veiled and hinted at internet stories at that. I understand now. Thank you.


I don't veil and hint. What internet story are we talking about so I can be on the same page.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

emdeengee said:


> I don't have to imagine a scenario because it has already happened in the past and continues to happen around the world. What happened in Yugoslavia, Syria and the Sudan and is happening in the Ukraine is the way of civil wars. It is uncontrollable once it starts. To find out what would really be the situation faced in a civil war I recommend talking to refugees and immigrants from these war torn countries. The inhumanity of normal people towards other normal people - well just horrific.
> 
> Personally I do believe that there is the probability of some sort of pointless civil war/uprising happening in the future because of huge economic mistakes, the destruction of the middle class, that there are no middle ground politics and most importantly no diplomatic or legal course of action for separation of the country if certain factions actually wanted this.


I don't think anyone here Wants a war. I also don't think anyone here wants to attack other citizens....but take a poll if you're curious.

I will never have the intent to take offensive action against anyone.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Woolieface said:


> I don't think anyone here Wants a war.


Oh sure. A number of HT members have said they want war against various enemies, mostly out of hate and prejudice. There could be a little fear in the equation also. But I suspect that war is promoted in Washington for economic gain, either to prop up defense contractors or to protect our economic interests.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Oh sure. A number of HT members have said they want war against various enemies, mostly out of hate and prejudice. There could be a little fear in the equation also. But I suspect that war is promoted in Washington for economic gain, either to prop up defense contractors or to protect our economic interests.


Hardly Nevada. The government is the problem.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

painterswife said:


> It is how this country works. We are free to push all we want.


I know. I push back.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

JJ Grandits said:


> I know. I push back.


Yes, you do. With such entertaining internet stories too.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

7thswan said:


> Hardly Nevada. The government is the problem.


Now you want to get government out of war?


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Patchouli said:


> I believe the real question here is how far are you since you are the one looking to start the revolution. :thumb:



Actually I want to stop a revolution. That would be the worst thing happen to our Country. Unfortunately I do not have the power to stop it. Only our government by obeying the Constitution and rule of law can do that. But they refuse and edge us closer.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> Yes, you do. With such entertaining internet stories too.



You seem to be obsessed with the term "internet stories". Is that your new buzz phrase?
I assume it is some tongue in cheek insult.
You whacky little liberals with your special code talk. You can continue to feel special, OK? I don't mind.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Now you want to get government out of war?


I don't know what you meen by "now".


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Third time I've seen the "internet stories" line. I have no idea what that's about...


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Woolieface said:


> Third time I've seen the "internet stories" line. I have no idea what that's about...


Might be like that huffington post thing, if they don't like the naritive it becomes entertainment.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2015)

Woolieface said:


> Third time I've seen the "internet stories" line. I have no idea what that's about...


Kind of like,,,,if it ain't a fact it's a lie, senseless banter with no facts, your opinion means nothing. Just feeble attacks that slid under the radar to stifle debate and opinions, in an attempt make them feel superior.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> You seem to be obsessed with the term "internet stories". Is that your new *buzz phrase*?
> I assume it is some tongue in cheek insult.
> You whacky little *liberals* with your special code talk. You can continue to feel special, OK? I don't mind.


You seem to like buzzwords yourself, since that label is in so many of your posts.

You know the "internet stories" is largely about your postage stamp fantasy, so why pretend it hasn't been explained?


----------



## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

Woolieface said:


> Third time I've seen the "internet stories" line. I have no idea what that's about...


It's not really about anything. Pixie made it up in post 129, and BFF fell for it completely and joined in.




Bearfootfarm said:


> You seem to like buzzwords yourself, since that label is in so many of your posts.
> 
> You know the "internet stories" is largely about your postage stamp fantasy, so why pretend it hasn't been explained?


See, he still clings to it even on this page.



Irish Pixie said:


> So it's an internet story? I understand now.


They keep saying internet story, because it makes readers think JJ must have posted a bogus claim to something he says happened.
In fact, JJ mentioned it as an idea, example, of something possible. And JJ even clarified that after being accused of internet story teller. But comprehension fails.



Bearfootfarm said:


> No one said there was anything wrong with it.
> 
> It's just that no one really does it, and most places wouldn't accept it anyway, so wasting all the energy talking about it is pointless.
> 
> Even the "proof" offered that it's been done was over 100 years old and talked about it simply being used as postage and not for paying taxes or utilities


Nobody has wasted more talking on this thread than bff, yet he seems to loathe it. Self loathing?



7thswan said:


> Might be like that huffington post thing, if they don't like the naritive it becomes entertainment.


Yep. I suppose there's not much explanation for the posts of some unless it is to entertain themselves. It's sure useless for anything else.


...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> They keep saying internet story, because it makes readers think* JJ must have posted a bogus claim* to something he says happened.
> 
> In fact, JJ mentioned it as *an idea, example, of something possible*. And JJ even clarified that after being accused of internet story teller. But *comprehension fails.*


He did post a bogus claim that has been disproven

It's *not* possible, since it's *not* "legal tender" as he claimed.

It's an internet fable

You'd have seen that if you weren't so focused on taking silly little personal jabs to impress your clique


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You seem to like buzzwords yourself, since that label is in so many of your posts.
> 
> You know the "internet stories" is largely about your postage stamp fantasy, so why pretend it hasn't been explained?


Hey, I can have my postage stamp fantasy as long as you and your liberal friends have their Obama fantasy, or confederate flag fantasy, or gun control fantasy, or immigration fantasy, or racists fantasy, or economic fantasy, or foreign affairs fantasy, or ad infinitum fantasy.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Who has had enough?

I have.

I have HAD IT UP TO HERE, my cup overfloweth with "I HAVE HAD IT".

I am sick up to my eyeballs with liars, cheats, thieves, manipulators.
I am SICK up to my eyeballs with two faced, back stabbing. gaslighting, abusive, monsters.

You want to know what really grinds my gears, wizzes me off, sends me into outer space, makes me want to projectile puke????

When people can be liars, cheaters, manipulators, deceivers, back stabbers, dirtbags, feminine hygene products; AND when those bag of buttholes LEAD OTHERS to do the same as them.............
When people like that get away with it.
Not only get away with it, but they blame everything on someone else.......and everyone joins in and blames that person too........because the dirtbag is my most forked tongue / silver tonged beast that roams the earth.

That's why I have had it with.
When Evil is called good, and Good is called evil.
When they can be scum bag / dirtbags, and get away with it.
NOT ONLY get away with it, but blame others and come out smelling like a rose when really they don't even RATE to be called fertilizer.

That's what I have had it with.
I have had enough.
I hate, injustice.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> Hey, I can have my postage stamp fantasy as long as you and your liberal friends have their Obama fantasy, or confederate flag fantasy, or gun control fantasy, or immigration fantasy, or racists fantasy, or economic fantasy, or foreign affairs fantasy, or ad infinitum fantasy.


That statement proves you know just as much about me as you do about "legal tender"


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> He did post a bogus claim that has been disproven
> 
> It's *not* possible, since it's *not* "legal tender" as he claimed.
> 
> ...








Bearfootfarm said:


> That statement proves you know just as much about me as you do about "legal tender"




The Dept of Treasury has a definition of legal tender, and I've read it.
As far as bogus claims go, there were several on here that have also been disproved.

I don't have time to explain the terms and conditions by which postage stamps, including the fractional currency ones, can be used and redeemed for "legal tender", but I may post the gov't links later but chances are, the only people interested in them would be the few that own them. To provide them as a subject for frivolous debate and more false accusations would be a waste of my time.
I have found that under U.S. law, that even items that are no longer printed, can be redeemed for legal tender no matter how old, and in the case of the Post Office, common postal stamps are used within that gov't agency as a means of currency.
IOW, unused stamps can be redeemed for money, or used as payment or refund of postal services.
While no one today would likely have a gov't debt less than $5 and a fractional currency stamp to pay it with, you can pay a gov't debt from the USPS in plain old stamps, under certain conditions.

But I would suggest anyone who makes bold, blanket statements about something or someone, research the validity of their statement first, along with verifying their foot, and mouth dimensions...........


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

farmrbrown said:


> The Dept of Treasury has a definition of legal tender, and I've read it.
> As far as bogus claims go, there were several on here that have also been disproved.
> 
> I don't have time to explain the terms and conditions by which postage stamps, including the fractional currency ones, can be used and redeemed for "legal tender", but I may post the gov't links later but chances are, the only people interested in them would be the few that own them. To provide them as a subject for frivolous debate and more false accusations would be a waste of my time.
> ...


Ok, I will admit I was wrong about them being legal tender. I had read it was possible awhile ago and and did not remember the details correctly.

I'm sorry, please forgive me.

Do not pay your property taxes in postage stamps. they will not accept them.

Use Canadian coinage instead.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> But I would suggest anyone who makes bold, blanket statements about something or someone, research the validity of their statement first, along with verifying their foot, and mouth dimensions...........


So many words, so little substance.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

I agree.
This one is my favorite........

"Don't let your Alligator mouth overload your Mockingbird tail."


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Who has had enough?
> 
> I have.
> 
> ...


 I think you should tell us how you really feel.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Scott SW Ohio said:


> Is the purpose of the revolution to topple the current government and institute something more to the liking of conservatives? I guess it is possible this could be done, though it seems very unlikely to me. But if those were your ends, and you somehow achieved them, how would you prevent the surviving populace from voting us back to a political endpoint essentially the same as we have now?


Just restoring the rule of law would be a darn good start.


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## Scott SW Ohio (Sep 20, 2003)

Txsteader said:


> Just restoring the rule of law would be a darn good start.


Txsteader, if you are going to post a quote with altered (and in this case garbled) content, as here, please remove the attribution.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Scott SW Ohio said:


> Txsteader, if you are going to post a quote with altered (and in this case garbled) content, as here, please remove the attribution.


Don't know how that happened, was not my intention. Fixed it.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Marshloft said:


> I think you should tell us how you really feel.


*How about the PC version?*

Gosh, it's not ideal when uncomfortable things happen.

It's so unfortunate that some adults had such poor upbringing. Shame on their parents for shaping them into who they are today. Shame on the government for not stepping in and making things right. Shame on the doctors and nurses for not recognizing the personality disorder. 
Poor, poor, misunderstood, disordered human, it must be difficult to be in your skin. I know you are not responsible for any of your actions or words, it's clearly someone else who is to blame.


*How do I really feel?

*Devastated


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

The point is am not one of those quiet little Americans, trusting the government to do whats right, trusting the media to tell the unbiased truth, going through life fat, dumb and happy, following entertainment tonight with interest and enthusiasm. (How's that for a run on sentence)

I will stand for what I believe is right. I will have my voice heard. I will support those who support my beliefs, and I will oppose those who do not. I will be vigilant and hold people accountable.

This is not a whim on my part. It is my responsibility and duty as a citizen of this Country.

Obama was wrong. We are exceptional. 
Just as he has become the greatest gun salesman in America, he has also awakened a long too dormant patriotism.


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

JJ Grandits said:


> T
> Just as he has become the greatest gun salesman in America,* he has also awakened a long too dormant patriotism*.


 That he has.Talk about a sleeping giant.


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## beenaround (Mar 2, 2015)

JJ Grandits said:


> Stand up and act like a man. Be a rabid advocate for what I see as being right. Get in peoples faces and be loud about it. put my money where my mouth is.
> 
> basically the same thing I've been doing for awhile now only cranking it up several notches. Maybe a whole bunch of notches.
> 
> I love this Country. I won't sit still and watch it get destroyed. I have to leave something for my children and grand children.


Well if that's your plan (same as most) things will get worse. That plan is exactly what causes government growth.

try loving your neighbor, no government is ever enabled doing it.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

beenaround said:


> Well if that's your plan (same as most) things will get worse. That plan is exactly what causes government growth.
> 
> try loving your neighbor, no government is ever enabled doing it.



I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused. How does standing up for what I believe is right make things worse? How does holding people accountable cause government growth?
I'll agree about loving my neighbor, however my government is not my neighbor. A government is no more then a collection of idea's. When the idea's turn against those they govern, loving my neighbor, for my neighbor's sake, requires I stand up for what is right.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2015)

JJ Grandits said:


> I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused. How does standing up for what I believe is right make things worse? How does holding people accountable cause government growth?
> I'll agree about loving my neighbor, however my government is not my neighbor. A government is no more then a collection of idea's. When the idea's turn against those they govern, loving my neighbor, for my neighbor's sake, requires I stand up for what is right.


I see the point being made, although just loving your neighbor will not accomplish change on the national level, but it may turn things within you close circle. Sort of a philosophical starting point.

Desent does tend to grow the beast though. Think of the multitude of laws, agencies and resources utilized to control a marginal dissatisfied populace now. Government is only about control and the betterment of the few.

I do applaud your passion, even if I was to disagree with your final vision of what a government should be.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

One thing I know for sure. And no argument can stand against it.

History is the diary of passionate people.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

JJ Grandits said:


> One thing I know for sure. And no argument can stand against it.
> 
> History is the diary of passionate people.


Tis a pity no one bothers to record it accurately.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Tis a pity no one bothers to record it accurately.


Accuracy is so subjective.


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## whodunit (Mar 29, 2004)

Mike Huckabee kind of insinuated that we have no obligation to uphold the SCOTUS ruling on same-sex marriage because SCOTUS cannot make law. So, basically just dig in the heels and refuse to comply. They can't put everyone in jail. Unfortunately, they can put some and nobody ever wants to be first, it seems.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Here in New york the SAFE act (Cuomo's new and improved gun control law) has also been ignored. Of the one million estimated so called assault weapons owned by citizens that had to be registered by April 15th of last year only 45,000 were.

So if they pass a law and nobody follows it does it really matter?


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

JJ Grandits said:


> Here in New york the SAFE act (Cuomo's new and improved gun control law) has also been ignored. Of the one million estimated so called assault weapons owned by citizens that had to be registered by April 15th of last year only 45,000 were.
> 
> So if they pass a law and nobody follows it does it really matter?


Civil disobedience is the best option I see. I expect laws are coming down the road that will offend my conscience to abide by.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Naaa... ain't got enuf on my plate... Knowing what I've been through and how God carried me through the muck, I'm pretty sure that He'll not overburden me too much. 

Cue the 5 foot Centipedes...


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2015)

Woolieface said:


> Civil disobedience is the best option I see. I expect laws are coming hdown the road that will offend my conscience to abide by.


:clap:
Creative dissidance


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

JJ Grandits said:


> Here in New york the SAFE act (Cuomo's new and improved gun control law) has also been ignored. Of the one million estimated so called assault weapons owned by citizens that had to be registered by April 15th of last year only 45,000 were.
> 
> So if they pass a law and nobody follows it does it really matter?





Woolieface said:


> Civil disobedience is the best option I see. I expect laws are coming down the road that will offend my conscience to abide by.


Consent of the governed. Simply withdraw consent. :thumb:


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Civil disobedience is becoming the new law of the land. Our current political leadership is a joke. We are governed by a Dictator and chastised by his crew of whiny fishwife supporters. The progressive voice and their media stooges have become nothing more then an annoying background noise. It's like going about your business while occasionally passing a crazy person ranting on the street.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

I was mulling this over when I heard of bakers who "have" to bake wedding cakes for gay couples...

Granted, my example only involves craigslist and so far that probably falls outside of an area of commerce that's strictly controlled, but here was my food for thought -

I had a yearling ram to sell which I posted an ad for on craigslist. I received a call from a man who was clearly Middle Eastern and he asked some questions about the animal...I didn't think much of it. I received a couple more calls, both of those were Middle Eastern as well. Then it dawned on me that a Muslim holiday was approaching.

Suddenly it didn't sit right with me, the idea of selling my animal to be dedicated to Allah for their holiday feast. I don't raise my sheep for Allah. I refused to sell to anyone who was buying for that holiday. I wonder who's going to try to sue me in the future for making those kinds of decisions.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

JJ Grandits said:


> Civil disobedience is becoming the new law of the land. Our current political leadership is a joke. We are governed by a Dictator and chastised by his crew of whiny fishwife supporters. The progressive voice and their media stooges have become nothing more then an annoying background noise. It's like going about your business while occasionally passing a crazy person ranting on the street.


Civil and criminal disobedience is how we're all living whether intentionally or not. We're being legislated into the status of criminal slaves at every turn by all branches at all levels of government; as well as, their designated agencies that have been given license to legislate freely and unchecked by the control of any citizen election authority.

It's being documented some by media and authors. But, not nearly enough by my estimation.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Woolieface said:


> I was mulling this over when I heard of bakers who "have" to bake wedding cakes for gay couples...
> 
> Granted, my example only involves craigslist and so far that probably falls outside of an area of commerce that's strictly controlled, but here was my food for thought -
> 
> ...


I am not Muslim, but would not have an issue selling to them personally. I would wonder though, if I might end up on some govt list for being a known associate of a person of interest.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

gibbsgirl said:


> I am not Muslim, but would not have an issue selling to them personally. I would wonder though, if I might end up on some govt list for being a known associate of a person of interest.


We're probably just as likely to be persons of interest because we are posting on this thread. I keep getting the impression that the government likes Islamic extremists more than it likes average American dissidents.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Woolieface, that's true. All leadership is savvy to the fact that historically, internal forces are the undoing lychpins in the downfall or regimes, govts, monarchies, empires, etc.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

painterswife said:


> There is a big difference between understanding and even preparing for a civil war and threatening one every time the other citizens believe differently than you do.
> 
> Discussing the possibility is not the same. It will not eventually happen. You have no crystal ball just a small portion of the internet ranting and raging.


I don't foresee a civil war, I foresee a total government collapse based on a logical view of the financial facts. When the US reaches the point it doesn't have and can not borrow enough money to cover its bills things will fall apart very quickly.

The most likely result from this collapse is a bigger version of what happened when Yugoslavia failed. You will have many smaller separate nations emerge after some fairly bloody fighting.


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Oh sure. A number of HT members have said they want war against various enemies, mostly out of hate and prejudice. There could be a little fear in the equation also. But I suspect that war is promoted in Washington for economic gain, either to prop up defense contractors or to protect our economic interests.


There's a big difference in wanting war and seeing the necessity of it. I don't think there are many cops who want to kill someone but most of them will tell you they are willing to do so if it becomes necessary.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> I was mulling this over when I heard of bakers who "have" to bake wedding cakes for gay couples...
> 
> Granted, my example only involves craigslist and so far that probably falls outside of an area of commerce that's strictly controlled, but here was my food for thought -
> 
> ...



Seriously? I don't even know what to say to that. I just love it how you guys try to prove you are better than Muslims and here you are withholding food from them. Muslims will feed you. Christians not so much I guess.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> Seriously? I don't even know what to say to that. I just love it how you guys try to prove you are better than Muslims and here you are withholding food from them. Muslims will feed you. Christians not so much I guess.


OK, I can see you might disagree, but why can't you acknowledge you disagreed with woolieface? Why does it have to be you don't agree with Christians? I'm Christian, and I just posted I would be fine selling to a Muslim.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

gibbsgirl said:


> OK, I can see you might disagree, but why can't you acknowledge you disagreed with woolieface? Why does it have to be you don't agree with Christians? I'm Christian, and I just posted I would be fine selling to a Muslim.


That would go against the agenda.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> Seriously? I don't even know what to say to that. I just love it how you guys try to prove you are better than Muslims and here you are withholding food from them. *Muslims will feed you. *Christians not so much I guess.


They'll also chop your head off.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Txsteader said:


> They'll also chop your head off.


Were you being facetious? You do realize how ignorant your statement is, right? You're lumping all muslims in with muslim extremists simply because they follow the islamic faith. It's like me saying that you are exactly like the Westboro baptist church members because you're all christian. 

Ridiculous.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> Were you being facetious? You do realize how ignorant your statement is, right? *You're lumping all muslims in with muslim extremists *simplybecause they follow the islamic faith. It's like me saying that you are exactly like the Westboro baptist church members because you're all christian.
> 
> Ridiculous.


Just like Patchouli lumped all Christians together, claiming they won't feed you. So my statement is no more ignorant than hers.

And yes, I was being facetious.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

watcher said:


> I don't foresee a civil war, I foresee a total government collapse based on a logical view of the financial facts. When the US reaches the point it doesn't have and can not borrow enough money to cover its bills things will fall apart very quickly.
> 
> The most likely result from this collapse is a bigger version of what happened when Yugoslavia failed. You will have many smaller separate nations emerge after some fairly bloody fighting.


The old saw is that civilization is only three days without food from collapse.

I don't know about collapse, but when the money runs out and the gibmedats can no longer access free everything, it's not going to be pretty.

Many people think the current military exercise in Texas is a wargame based on putting down domestic civil unrest.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> Seriously? I don't even know what to say to that. I just love it how you guys try to prove you are better than Muslims and here you are withholding food from them. Muslims will feed you. Christians not so much I guess.


I don't have a problem with FEEDING Muslims. If a hungry Muslim came to my door, I'd invite him to dinner. I am not better than anyone...there's no one I wouldn't offer my food to if they needed it.

When they slaughter their animals for their holiday feasts, they perform a dedication over than animal to Allah. In so doing, they are dedicating the animal to a devil, according to the Bible. I raise my animals with my faith in mind, as I do all things, and I am not comfortable with that.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Woolieface said:


> I don't have a problem with FEEDING Muslims. If a hungry Muslim came to my door, I'd invite him to dinner. I am not better than anyone...there's no one I wouldn't offer my food to if they needed it.
> 
> When they slaughter their animals for their holiday feasts, they perform a dedication over than animal to Allah. In so doing, they are dedicating the animal to a devil, according to the Bible. I raise my animals with my faith in mind, as I do all things, and I am not comfortable with that.


Yup, most saw this, a few did not.
As usual.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> When they slaughter their animals for their holiday feasts, *they perform a dedication over than animal to Allah*. In so doing, they are dedicating the animal to a devil, according to the Bible. I raise my animals with my faith in mind, as I do all things, and I am not comfortable with that.



They slaughter all animals the same way all the time, and it's called "Halal"

It's amazing how people can be connected to the greatest source of information in human history, and still not know simple things.



> haÂ·lal (h&#601;-lÃ¤l&#8242 Islam. adj. 1. Of or being meat from animals slaughtered in the manner prescribed by the shari'a:


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Her property... she controls it... sorry no one else controls it.. 
Don't like it too bad.
What are you going to punish her to take away her. Why.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

One Word; Vote

Some More Words: Write to your Congressman and Senators tell them what you are saying here, then contribute to and work for the campaigns of those who think as you do. 

I've been up and down the road a while, and I've learned that your letters do influence politicians. Not angry emails, but reasoned and politely worded personal letters saying just what you think.
Ox

By the way; Not too long ago I read an article saying that a college in Minnesota had a policy on "mini aggression", words or phrases that were not to be used because they suggested racism to the minority listener. I wrote a hot letter to the college Chancellor and got a letter back saying that the college had no such policy. According to the Chancellor the article referred to an internal document that was part of a faculty discussion. 

The words were simple things such as "I have black friends"---things one might say without an ounce of malice intended. Stupid illegitimates out there who write such policies, even for faculty discussion.

By the way; Muslims and Jews use similar methods to kill food animals; the prayer invokes the blessing of the Deity upon the animal. Conditions require a peaceful, and as pain-free death as possible. Here is something the Muslims suggest, and I believe the Jews have something similar.


Water should be offered to the animal before slaughter, and it should not be slaughtered when hungry.
The knife should be hidden from the animal, and slaughtering should be done out of sight of other animals waiting to be slaughtered.
Animals should be killed in a comfortable way. Unnecessary suffering to them must be avoided.
The knife should be re-sharpened before slaughter.
The sharp knife bit is to prevent pain. If you've read of the slaughter of the inhabitants of Masada you will recall that the killer's knives were very sharp.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> If you've read of the slaughter of the inhabitants of Masada you will recall that the killer's knives were very sharp.


The people at Masada committed suicide



> According to Josephus, the Siege of Masada by troops of the Roman Empire towards the end of the First JewishâRoman War ended in the mass suicide of the 960 Sicarii rebels and their families hiding there. Masada is located 20 kilometres (12 mi) east of Arad.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Jolly said:


> The old saw is that civilization is only three days without food from collapse.
> 
> I don't know about collapse, but when the money runs out and the gibmedats can no longer access free everything, it's not going to be pretty.
> 
> Many people think the current military exercise in Texas is a wargame based on putting down domestic civil unrest.


I think 3 days is being optimistic. I think 3 meals is more likely when chaos would set in. Especially if there is no sign of anything coming for meal 4. That has always been my early warning system.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

kasilofhome said:


> Her property... she controls it... sorry no one else controls it..
> Don't like it too bad.
> What are you going to punish her to take away her. Why.


If you mean me, I be a he. (I'm also a poet)...


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Oxankle said:


> By the way; Muslims and Jews use similar methods to kill food animals; the prayer invokes the blessing of the Deity upon the animal. Conditions require a peaceful, and as pain-free death as possible. Here is something the Muslims suggest, and I believe the Jews have something similar.
> 
> 
> Water should be offered to the animal before slaughter, and it should not be slaughtered when hungry.
> ...


I have no problem with the Method...It's just the deity that's the issue.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Woolieface said:


> If you mean me, I be a he. (I'm also a poet)...


turn me in..

See, woolie could have been nasty HE did not take me using the wrong pronoun as an insult.... just knew I was ignorant and provided me with the knowledge.

Cool.. done.

But there is a population that is imagines and pretends offenses... Or can't take no.

Can't be wrong or ignorant.....we all are.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Woolieface, you sell to whomever you choose, bud, and I'll do the same. I don't know if either of us are right wrong or otherwise. I don't care what anyone else thinks.

And, I think God is big enough that since he knows we're both trying to genuinely do what he expects of us, he'll say that is what mattered most, that even when we mess up our choices here, it's okay as long as we truly were intending to honor his will in life.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

gibbsgirl said:


> Woolieface, you sell to whomever you choose, bud, and I'll do the same. I don't know if either of us are right wrong or otherwise. I don't care what anyone else thinks.
> 
> And, I think God is big enough that since he knows we're both trying to genuinely do what he expects of us, he'll say that is what mattered most, that even when we mess up our choices here, it's okay as long as we truly were intending to honor his will in life.


I actually see the method as a humane one and if that's all it was, I'd be glad to sell my animal to someone performing slaughter that way. It sometimes baffles me to think that a culture that believes in being so carefully humane to animals can have members who are incredibly inhumane towards other human beings... but that's beside the point.

I know lots of Christians wouldn't feel a conflict with selling an animal to a Muslim for slaughter, and I don't judge that... we each deal with how God moves our own conscience and it's not always the same today and it will be tomorrow. I'm in a growing process like everybody else. 

_"Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth" - Romans 14:19-22_


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gibbsgirl said:


> OK, I can see you might disagree, but why can't you acknowledge you disagreed with woolieface? Why does it have to be you don't agree with Christians? I'm Christian, and I just posted I would be fine selling to a Muslim.


Because he made it a Christian vs. Muslim thing. He chose not to sell the guy the ram because he felt his religious beliefs forbade him to do so.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> I don't have a problem with FEEDING Muslims. If a hungry Muslim came to my door, I'd invite him to dinner. I am not better than anyone...there's no one I wouldn't offer my food to if they needed it.
> 
> When they slaughter their animals for their holiday feasts, they perform a dedication over than animal to Allah. In so doing, they are dedicating the animal to a devil, according to the Bible. I raise my animals with my faith in mind, as I do all things, and I am not comfortable with that.


I think there are a lot of Coptic Christians who would beg to differ with you about Allah being a devil. As a matter of fact if it's true that several of the the New Testament books of the bible were actually written in Aramaic then the Bible itself would disagree with you.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> I think there are a lot of Coptic Christians who would beg to differ with you about Allah being a devil. As a matter of fact if it's true that several of the the New Testament books of the bible were actually written in Aramaic then the Bible itself would disagree with you.


I'm not sure why the language of the bible would have anything to do with whether or not Allah is a god or a devil. 

_"For all the gods of the nations are false gods: but the LORD made the heavens."_ - Psalm 96:5


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Patchouli said:


> I think there are a lot of Coptic Christians who would beg to differ with you about Allah being a devil. As a matter of fact if it's true that several of the the New Testament books of the bible were actually written in Aramaic then the Bible itself would disagree with you.



Not Aramaic, but Arabic.

Etymology

The Arabic components that build-up the word "Allah":
1. alif
2. hamzat wa&#7779;l (&#1607;&#1605;&#1586;&#1577; &#1608;&#1589;&#1604
3. l&#257;m
4. l&#257;m
5. shadda (&#1588;&#1583;&#1577
6. dagger alif (&#1571;&#1604;&#1601; &#1582;&#1606;&#1580;&#1585;&#1610;&#1577
7. h&#257;&#702;
The term All&#257;h is derived from a contraction of the Arabic definite article al- "the" and il&#257;h "deity, god" to al-l&#257;h meaning "the [sole] deity, God" (&#8001; &#952;&#949;&#8056;&#962; &#956;&#972;&#957;&#959;&#962;, ho theos monos).[15] Cognates of the name "All&#257;h" exist in other Semitic languages, including Hebrew and Aramaic.[16] The corresponding Aramaic form is Elah (&#1488;&#1500;&#1492, but its emphatic state is Elaha (&#1488;&#1500;&#1492;&#1488. It is written as &#1808;&#1824;&#1815;&#1808; (&#700;&#276;l&#257;h&#257 in Biblical Aramaic and &#1808;&#1842;&#1824;&#1845;&#1815;&#1845;&#1808; (&#700;AlÃ¢hÃ¢) in Syriac as used by the Assyrian Church, both meaning simply "God".[17] Biblical Hebrew mostly uses the plural (but functional singular) form Elohim (&#1488;&#1500;&#1492;&#1497;&#1501, but more rarely it also uses the singular form Eloah (&#1488;&#1500;&#1493;&#1492;&#1468. In the Sikh scripture of Guru Granth Sahib, the term Allah (Punjabi: &#2565;&#2610;&#2617;&#2625 is used 37 times.[18]


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

They all mean "God" and it's the same one



> It is written as &#1808;&#1824;&#1815;&#1808; (&#700;&#276;l&#257;h&#257 in Biblical Aramaic and &#1808;&#1842;&#1824;&#1845;&#1815;&#1845;&#1808; (&#700;AlÃ¢hÃ¢) in Syriac as used by the Assyrian Church, both meaning simply "God".


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yes, I know. I read the link I posted.
Care to tell me Allah is written in the New Testament in Aramaic, and not the word Alaha?
That was the mistake I was correcting.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Yes, I know. I read the link I posted.
> Care to tell me Allah is written in the New Testament in Aramaic, and not the word Alaha?
> That was the mistake I was correcting.


I was correcting the mistake that one means God and one means a "devil"
I don't really care too much about the spelling since that's a translation


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> Yes, I know. I read the link I posted.
> Care to tell me Allah is written in the New Testament in Aramaic, and not the word Alaha?
> That was the mistake I was correcting.


You are really going to make your stand on how it is transliterated? Same word in all of the languages at base.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

"Elohim" is both the word for "gods", in the sense of various deities/ created beings which are worshiped in pagan tradition as well as the word used for The One True God.

Just as "god" and "God" are used in English to denote various deities, or the God we worship, the Creator of heavens and the earth.

Allah might well be a being who has received worship, but he is not the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth.


----------



## Guest (Jul 25, 2015)

I find studying language differences fascinating. Allah, Alah, are used in the Torah but context is important in its meaning, for that dictates everything.

Just as an example not as dramatic here as the the discussion but hopefully not offensive, is a verse most all are familiar with more literally translated.

1) A psalm of David.

I want for nothing, for Adonai is my shepherd: (2) it is God who lets me lie down in pastures of grass and who leads me to calm waters (3) to restore my spirit, who walks me in level pastures as befits a shepherd of sounds reputation.

(4) Even though I must sometimes pass through dark valleys, I fear no harm for You are with me; indeed, Your crook and Your walking stick are sources of constant comfort for me.

(5) You set a table for me in the presence of my enemies; You have anointed my head with so much fine oil that I feel like an overflowing cup.

(6) Nothing but goodness and mercy pursue me all the days of my life; indeed, I feel certain that I shall dwell in the House of Adonai for days without end.

The feeling is different not bad but different


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> "Elohim" is both the word for "gods", in the sense of various deities/ created beings which are worshiped in pagan tradition as well as the word used for The One True God.
> 
> Just as "god" and "God" are used in English to denote various deities, or the God we worship, the Creator of heavens and the earth.
> 
> Allah might well be a being who has received worship, but he is not the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth.


In the Qur'an it actually specifies that God is Yahweh. They have the Shema in their book too. http://www.discoveringislam.org/yahweh_in_quran.htm


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> In the Qur'an it actually specifies that God is Yahweh. http://www.discoveringislam.org/yahweh_in_quran.htm


Well, that would be the Quran, which says a lot of things the Bible would disagree with.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

But the name is the same, whether you "agree" or not


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Patchouli said:


> You are really going to make your stand on how it is transliterated? Same word in all of the languages at base.


Yes, assuming we both know what "my stand" is.........

A small error on your part that I corrected, not the debate on whose deity is what. I don't want any misunderstandings or false innuendoes attributed to my correction of a language that was cited.

Your statement implied that the New Testament would affirm the use of Allah as God. It does not. The language spoken by Jesus was Aramaic, not Arabic (although I'm sure he COULD speak it at will) and the correct spelling is Allaha.
It may seem trivial to some, but I assure you that the smallest of mistakes can mislead a multitude.
Easter is a perfect example. One mistranslation in Acts of the word Paschal, Passover in Greek, and we have a billion Christians who think ham and fertility rituals are a holy celebration of one of the most important days in history.

Several bad translations of Hebrew have resulted in Christians being mocked for what is written in the Old Testament. 
It's hard to argue that it's not a fairy tale when there are unicorns on Noah's boat!:facepalm:
Wild ox yes, unicorns........:umno:

So yes, every jot and tittle is important.:thumb:


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> Well, that would be the Quran, which says a lot of things the Bible would disagree with.


The Torah, the Christian Bible and the Qur'an all contain the Shema. And they all use the same word for God's actual name Yahweh.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> Yes, assuming we both know what "my stand" is.........
> 
> A small error on your part that I corrected, not the debate on whose deity is what. I don't want any misunderstandings or false innuendoes attributed to my correction of a language that was cited.
> 
> ...


If it was a mistranslation I would agree with you. If that "a" at the end meant something I would also agree with you. But it doesn't change the meaning of the base word. They all are the generic word for God in that language.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Patchouli said:


> If it was a mistranslation I would agree with you. If that "a" at the end meant something I would also agree with you. But it doesn't change the meaning of the base word. They all are the generic word for God in that language.


Again, what language?
Arabic or Aramaic?
Yes, in the Arabic translations of the New Testament, Allah is the word for God.
In Aramaic, one of the original languages the New Testament was scribed, it would be Allaha.
If you meant to say Arabic, I agree, Aramaic, is incorrect.

As a side note, in each language, each syllable or letter actually DOES mean something.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> The Torah, the Christian Bible and the Qur'an all contain the Shema. And they all use the same word for God's actual name Yahweh.


I understand...however the use of His name does not make the context its in support my faith. The Quran and the bible have a lot of disagreements, and I am not of the mind that He disagrees with Himself.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Better said, rather than paying attention to the name used, pay attention to the acts done in that name.
That will tell you whether they knew who they were talking to or not.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> Better said, rather than paying attention to the name used, pay attention to the acts done in that name.
> That will tell you whether they knew who they were talking to or not.



We are not going to judge God based on the horrific things people have done using His name, are we?


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Trixie said:


> We are not going to judge God based on the horrific things people have done using His name, are we?


I don't think anyone is implying that here. The debate is whether or not the god of Islam is the same as the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth. I can not agree that he is but that has nothing to do with the conduct, good or bad, of his followers.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

> Better said, rather than paying attention to the name used, pay attention to the acts done in that name.
> That will tell you whether they knew who they were talking to or not.


I don't know how that can be interpreted any other way -


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Trixie said:


> I don't know how that can be interpreted any other way -


I think that might qualify for anyone who does a horrible act in His name....it's always a misrepresentation.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Woolieface said:


> I don't think anyone is implying that here. The debate is whether or not the god of Islam is the same as the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth. I can not agree that he is but that has nothing to do with the conduct, good or bad, of his followers.


It's a historical fact. There is no debate about it, never has been (except amongst some Christians who would prefer to believe otherwise). It is the same God, just naturally called by other names in different languages by each religion. Hebrews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God, who is the God of Abraham, God the Creator, God the Father. And just like Christianity the Islamic religion has several denominations, some really nice and sensible, some mediocre, and some downright insane and vicious - derived from both of those religions. But for all of them it's still the same One God of Abraham who is your God and their God that they all know as God the Creator.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Trixie said:


> I don't know how that can be interpreted any other way -


It can't be, unless the implication is Muslims, due to the actions of a few, don't really "know God" at all


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Woolieface said:


> I don't think anyone is implying that here. The debate is whether or not the god of Islam is the same as the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth. *I can not agree *that he is but that has nothing to do with the conduct, good or bad, of his followers.


Reality isn't dependent upon your agreement
It was decided long before you even existed


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Muhammad may have claimed his message was from the God of Abraham but I have to wonder why God would contradict Himself. 

Clearly the messages are different....most obviously the one about Jesus.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Muhammad may have claimed his message was from the God of Abraham but I have to wonder *why God would contradict Himself*.


Because he can?


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Because he can?


He wouldn't. That would make Him a liar.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

OR..........

it would make Muhammad a liar.

And considering that he came 3 centuries after Christ, I lean toward Muhammad being a liar.

Uh oh, did I just put myself on a hit list for beheading????

:teehee:


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Trixie said:


> We are not going to judge God based on the horrific things people have done using His name, are we?



I don't know about "we", I can only speak for myself.

"No."
No more than I could judge you, based on what your friends or family do.



Trixie said:


> I don't know how that can be interpreted any other way -


See above.



Bearfootfarm said:


> It can't be, unless the implication is Muslims, due to the actions of a few, don't really "know God" at all



That is correct. I'm glad you could see the meaning of those words clearly. The same goes for any OTHER religion that breaks His laws and make similar claims.



Txsteader said:


> Muhammad may have claimed his message was from the God of Abraham but* I have to wonder why God would contradict Himself. *
> 
> Clearly the messages are different....most obviously the one about Jesus.





Bearfootfarm said:


> Because he can?



Better check with Him on that. He said He couldn't.
I like that about Him.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> *Better check with Him on that. He said He couldn't*.
> I like that about Him.


Exactly. 

And I like it, too.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> That is correct. I'm glad you could see the meaning of those words clearly. The same goes for any OTHER religion that breaks His laws and make similar claims.


So you're saying you're correct because your religion is the only real one.
Oddly they all say that


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Txsteader said:


> He wouldn't. That would make Him a liar.


What are the "lies"?


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2015)

Txsteader said:


> Muhammad may have claimed his message was from the God of Abraham but I have to wonder why God would contradict Himself.
> *
> Clearly the messages are different....most obviously the one about Jesus.*


I might have made a different argument, unless you are implying Judaism is not an Abrianic religion.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> So you're saying you're correct because your religion is the only real one.
> Oddly they all say that


*"NO"*

Please refrain from putting words in my mouth, twisting them to make them false, etc.

What I am saying, please hear this and understand it and believe it, what I am saying is GOD is correct, GOD doesn't contradict himself, and GOD is the only real one, no matter how many times man tries to twist His words.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What are the "lies"?


You've seen them in big bold print before many times.
It made no difference to you before when it was shown to you, why waste time doing it again?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> What I am saying, please hear this and understand it and believe it, what I am saying is GOD is correct, GOD doesn't contradict himself, and GOD is the only real one, no matter how many times man tries to twist His words.


You're still implying your God is the only real one.
Allah is still the same God
Ask any Muslim and they will explain that to you


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> You've seen them in big bold print before many times.
> It made no difference to you before when it was shown to you, *why waste time* doing it again?


You're correct
It's a waste of time to ask for details

We'll just go with the vague statements that save those precious seconds
Don't waste more time by replying


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> *You're still implying your God is the only real one.*
> Allah is still the same God
> Ask any Muslim and they will explain that to you


I am not implying it, I am stating it as clear as I possibly can.

If Muslims pray to the one and only true God, and call Him by the name of Allah, then may God bless them, I am happy they know Him.
Why you would think that I am the one that needs explanation, I don't know. I'm pretty clear on it.
It is written, "You shall know them by their fruits."
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7:16-20&version=KJV

If this is a feeble attempt to somehow drag me back to an explanation of Aramaic and Arabic spelling and pronunciation, it isn't necessary. The truth never changes despite man's best efforts.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> If this is a feeble attempt to somehow drag me back to an explanation of Aramaic and Arabic spelling and pronunciation, it isn't necessary.


That's only important to you.

And now you've wasted more time answering questions not asked.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's only important to you.
> 
> And now you've wasted more time answering questions not asked.


It is only wasted on the foolish, for the wise, knowledge is as valuable as pearls.


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's only important to you.
> 
> And now you've wasted more time answering questions not asked.


Too bad you are not interested in considering other people's perceptions. Your time was wasted, not mine. I find his posts quite interesting and some have possibly filled small holes in my understandings. I am still thinking them over. Sigh...


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Don't feed the bears....


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Fennick said:


> It's a historical fact. There is no debate about it, never has been (except amongst some Christians who would prefer to believe otherwise). It is the same God, just naturally called by other names in different languages by each religion. Hebrews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God, who is the God of Abraham, God the Creator, God the Father. And just like Christianity the Islamic religion has several denominations, some really nice and sensible, some mediocre, and some downright insane and vicious - derived from both of those religions. But for all of them it's still the same One God of Abraham who is your God and their God that they all know as God the Creator.


Wouldn't you say the deity in the Quran is representing some very different beliefs that would contradict those in either old or new testaments of the Bible? I'm not really debating the name or the title or who they are calling him...but I am saying that the messenger of their belief system is basically an imposter.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Shine said:


> Too bad you are not interested in considering other people's perceptions. Your time was wasted, not mine. I find his posts quite interesting and some have possibly filled small holes in my understandings. I am still thinking them over. Sigh...


Thank you, but I would like to give credit where credit is due.
The wisdom comes from God, not me. I am merely the messenger/errand boy.
:thumb:


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

deleted - wrong quote


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Woolieface said:


> Wouldn't you say the deity in the Quran is representing some very different beliefs that would contradict those in either old or new testaments of the Bible? I'm not really debating the name or the title or who they are calling him...but I am saying that the messenger of their belief system is basically an imposter.


That's the sticking point, isn't it?
The study of languages is interesting. It _can_ be important, in terms of communicating with people, but the real issue is the one in your post.

The answer is easy, as I quoted before.



farmrbrown said:


> It is written, "You shall know them by their fruits."
> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7:16-20&version=KJV



If people will simply keep that in mind, the rest will be clear.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Shine said:


> Too bad you are not interested in *considering other people's perceptions*. Your time was wasted, not mine. I find his posts quite interesting and some have possibly filled small holes in my understandings. I am still thinking them over. Sigh...


I asked (someone else) for specific answers, and all I got was repetition about something altogether different.

He's the one who talked about "wasting time"

I told him not to bother


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I asked (someone else) for specific answers, and all I got was repetition about something altogether different.
> 
> He's the one who talked about "wasting time"
> 
> I told him not to bother


Yes, that's true.

Although I don't recall any specific question to which you desired an answer.
I do recall a statement or two asserting your opinion on the unimportance of spelling, punctuation and linguistics. 

That doesn't matter, it's all the same God, etc, etc.


And you are also correct in some cases, posting links, copying and pasting sections, documenting statutes......IOW offering "proof" gets me absolutely nowhere with some people.
Yet there are others who are still willing to learn, still willing to examine their own opinions and still willing to change.

Aint life grand?:buds:


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

OK, I found your specific question.........





Txsteader said:


> Muhammad may have claimed his message was from the God of Abraham but I have to wonder why God would contradict Himself.
> 
> Clearly the messages are different....most obviously the one about Jesus.





Bearfootfarm said:


> Because he can?





Txsteader said:


> He wouldn't. That would make Him a liar.





Bearfootfarm said:


> What are the "lies"?





However the answer is, "God doesn't tell lies, men do."
As far as, "What are they?"
They are as many as the sands on the beach, take your pick.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> However the answer is, "God doesn't tell lies, men do."


Again you're answering a question not asked
It does appear to be a waste of time


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Again you're answering a question not asked
> It does appear to be a waste of time


Well, then spit out your question and stop playing silly games.
You seem to be the only one that knows what it is and you're right, I'm not into wasting time with silly games.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> I understand...however the use of His name does not make the context its in support my faith. The Quran and the bible have a lot of disagreements, and I am not of the mind that He disagrees with Himself.



Well if you want to go down that road the Bible itself frequently contradicts itself so.....


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Patchouli said:


> Well if you want to go down that road the Bible itself frequently contradicts itself so.....


No, but men have a way of making it seem so, often for their own intents, I'm afraid.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> Well, then spit out your question and stop playing silly games.
> You seem to be the only one that knows what it is and you're right, I'm not into wasting time with silly games.


You know the question, and I told you a long time ago not to waste any more time on it.

There's no need to act like I'm making you do anything at all

Post 283:


> You're correct
> It's a waste of time to ask for details
> 
> We'll just go with the vague statements that save those precious seconds
> Don't waste more time by replying


----------



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You know the question, and I told you a long time ago not to waste any more time on it.
> 
> There's no need to act like I'm making you do anything at all
> 
> Post 283:


So what IS your question and who is it directed at?


----------



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

dlmcafee said:


> I might have made a different argument, *unless you are implying Judaism is not an Abrianic religion*.


Not at all. What else could it be?


----------



## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Woolieface said:


> Wouldn't you say the deity in the Quran is representing some very different beliefs that would contradict those in either old or new testaments of the Bible? I'm not really debating the name or the title or who they are calling him...but I am saying that the messenger of their belief system is basically an imposter.


Okay, I see what you're getting at.

Well here's how I understand what happened according to history. Both the old and new testaments of the bible were orally taught and then later transcribed by several men over the course of several centuries, and the quran was also orally taught and then transcribed by several men over the period of several decades. Muhammed was illiterate and could neither read nor write but he got his messages from the Angel Gabriel and memorized them and then dictated them to scholars.

Both the bible and the quran have many contradictory passages in them and I think that's to be expected considering the passage of time it took to write them (especially the bible which actually took a few thousand years to write from beginning to end) and the fact that they were each transcribed from oral teachings by several scholars, many who had no knowledge or association of each other so obviously they couldn't confer or contrive with each other.

So I don't think anyone is an imposter because there were so many people in the mix over such a length of time and mistakes or misunderstandings of instructions and dictation are bound to happen when you have that many people transcribing stuff from oral teachings. I think all men are fallible and shouldn't be expected to be perfect. 

Each book is correct for the people that did the writing and each book is correct for the people that it was written for and who are happy with it. It's not anybody else's place to say that one or the other is imposturous (meaning fraudulant) BECAUSE each one is right for the people it was written for. It's simply not possible for either of the books or the people who wrote them to be fraudulant and just because you or I or Tom, Dick, and Harry may not agree with either one of those books and their messages doesn't mean they are frauds. They just aren't right for us.

All you can say is that the quran and its messages is not right for Christians and the bible and its messages is not right for Muslims. And Christians and Muslims can all say that other religions' holy books aren't right for Christians and Muslims, just as their own holy books are not right for other religions. And so on and so on.

It's not a competition. I know that religions and their adherents try to compete with each other over who is better and right, but really it's not a competition.


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Fennick said:


> Okay, I see what you're getting at.
> 
> Well here's how I understand what happened according to history. Both the old and new testaments of the bible were orally taught and then later transcribed by several men over the course of several centuries, and the quran was also orally taught and then transcribed by several men over the period of several decades. Muhammed was illiterate and could neither read nor write but he got his messages from the Angel Gabriel and memorized them and then dictated them to scholars.
> 
> ...


Therefore, the Book of Mormon would be the most accurate holy book of all?


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Jolly said:


> Therefore, the Book of Mormon would be the most accurate holy book of all?


There is no such thing as an accurate holy book because all holy books are written by men but the Book of Mormon is right for Mormons.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You know the question, and I told you a long time ago not to waste any more time on it.
> 
> There's no need to act like I'm making you do anything at all
> 
> Post 283:





Txsteader said:


> So what IS your question and who is it directed at?


Beats me.:shrug:
Maybe it has something to do with stamps, that was where the first tangent of this thread went.
I have no idea.

Reminds me of past dealings with women sometimes. I know you've heard this one......

You spend a 1/2 an hour asking "what's wrong?", her reply, "nothing".
Finally she says, "Well, if you don't _know_, I'm not gonna _tell_ you!"

:facepalm:

That one always blew my mind.


Whatever it is, it'll have to be his secret, lol.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> Well if you want to go down that road the Bible itself frequently contradicts itself so.....


I would say it doesn't


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Fennick said:


> Okay, I see what you're getting at.
> 
> Well here's how I understand what happened according to history. Both the old and new testaments of the bible were orally taught and then later transcribed by several men over the course of several centuries, and the quran was also orally taught and then transcribed by several men over the period of several decades. Muhammed was illiterate and could neither read nor write but he got his messages from the Angel Gabriel and memorized them and then dictated them to scholars.
> 
> ...


Competition isn't my goal or wish, however though it isn't PC to say so...there is such a thing as absolute truth, absolutely. It might be arrogant to say you have it all, but it's sensible to say you are in search of it and have come to some degree of it.

I differ with the opinion that it's all about the oral traditions and opinions of man. God had an involvement, and without that it wouldn't be what it is or mean much more to me than anyone else's opinion. It would also be an incorrect assumption to conclude that I believe that without reason or without evidence. 

I believe there are many very real and very powerful beings created by the God I worship and many of them have received their own worship from mankind, but unless the deity speaking agrees with the One I know, he is not my god. 

He said His sheep would know His voice, and I believe that too.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> I would say it doesn't


I think this one deserves it's own thread.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> I think this one deserves it's own thread.


Oh golly...won't that be a stunning event after some recent other threads....


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jolly said:


> Therefore, the Book of Mormon would be the most accurate holy book of all?


It's every bit as accurate as the rest, when you ask the followers of each


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Txsteader said:


> So what IS your question and who is it directed at?


It was 4 little words that have been copied and pasted more than once.
Scroll back and read the posts.

It's pointless to keep explaining when some (not you) just want to play mind games.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Txsteader said:


> So what IS your question and who is it directed at?



The "four words" was the clue. I quoted it last page, with other posts to keep ii in context, answered it, and then the games began, lol.




farmrbrown said:


> OK, I found your specific question.........



Quote:
Originally Posted by Txsteader 
Muhammad may have claimed his message was from the God of Abraham but I have to wonder why God would contradict Himself. 

Clearly the messages are different....most obviously the one about Jesus.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm 
Because he can?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Txsteader 
He wouldn't. That would make Him a liar.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm 
What are the "lies"?




farmrbrown said:


> However the answer is, "God doesn't tell lies, men do."
> As far as, "What are they?"
> They are as many as the sands on the beach, take your pick.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> The "four words" was the clue. I quoted it last page, with other posts to keep ii in context, answered it, and then the games began, lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks farmr, that's what I thought the question was, but wasn't sure if it was directed at me, even after I asked what the question was. By then, things were so convoluted that it was hard to tell what _anything_ meant.


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