# Pedigree terminology?



## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

What on earth does it mean when it says "own daughter" or "own son" of...
It seems as if it might be a linebreeding reference, but I really don't now. I saw this listing & finally remembered to ask:

1999 APHA Bay Roan SPB Mare - SIRE: APHA CHAMPION 'TIN MAN' (deceased) DAM: own daughter of AQHA Superior Open Halter Horse, Conclusive Lee. BIG halter mare that produces nice foals. Exposed to own son of R Big Time Fancy for a 2012 foal. Easy keeper, foals without problems, heavy milker and is a super momma. Asking: BEST OFFER

http://northernwi.craigslist.org/grd/2556154256.html


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

It means that the horse is a first generation descendant of the sire or dam.


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

So, a son or daughter, vs. a grand son or grand daughter?

In the horse world, if one states a "son of" the reference could actually be to a second or third generation...eg grand or great grand progeny?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Yes, for own son or daughter. "Son of" should be first generation as well but I've seen it used for second generation. The term "A blank horse" such as a "Three Bars' horse" is used if Three Bars is lurking somewhere in the pedigree.


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## Oregon Julie (Nov 9, 2006)

This is actually a big pet peeve of mine. I worked at a QH ranch that had three OWN daughters of Doc Bar, one OWN daughter of King P-234, and a ONW son of Doc O Lena out of the King daughter. People would say "oh yeah I have a Doc Bar horse" and it would be a great-grandchild at best. Sorry folks, it ain't the same thing. 

The other peeve with regards to talking pedigree is people who say that the horse is "out of Doc Bar". No, it isn't. It is out of the mare, it is BY the stallion. I have friends in Siberian Huskies who use this incorrectly and I cringe every time I hear it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

It drives me nuts too, Julie. Especially when foals are "out of" a stallion. Duh, *out of* should be a clue.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> It drives me nuts too, Julie. Especially when foals are "out of" a stallion. Duh, *out of* should be a clue.


Not saying the arguing the phrase is correct, but technically half that foal is "out of" the stallion at some point. I know what you mean, just saying in good humor. LOL 

It does seem to be a bit shady to call a great grandson a "son" of that horse. You hear "out of" A LOT around here in reference to the sire, I think it's funny that it's such a pet peeve for some.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

"Own son/daughter" is a term that only seems to be used by QH/Paint/App breeders. Why not just say the horse is a son/daughter? If it is a grandson/granddaughter, or great-grandson/great-granddaughter, then just say that. Another pet peeve of mine is when someone advertises a horse to have a famous stallion in it's pedigree, but when you look, it's three or more generations back and everything close is nothing special at all. A great-grandsire is really only 1/8 of that horse's genetic make up.


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## Oregon Julie (Nov 9, 2006)

malinda said:


> "Own son/daughter" is a term that only seems to be used by QH/Paint/App breeders. Why not just say the horse is a son/daughter? If it is a grandson/granddaughter, or great-grandson/great-granddaughter, then just say that. Another pet peeve of mine is when someone advertises a horse to have a famous stallion in it's pedigree, but when you look, it's three or more generations back and everything close is nothing special at all. A great-grandsire is really only 1/8 of that horse's genetic make up.


My breed is Arabian and you never see someone referring to a horse as being a own son/daughter of Khemosabi, it is just "she is a daughter of Khemonsabi" Funny how things seem to be breed connected. I think in the QH world that the intense linebreeding of some of the old foundation horses sometimes makes horses who are (as my employer was fond of saying) "more Poco then Poco Tivo himself".


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## mountainwmn (Sep 11, 2009)

Usually you see it from people who think their horses are gold plated. In this case they are stating that the mares dam is a daughter of Conclusive Lee. Or that she is a grand-daughter. Which means the dam of the mare never did anything and they are trying to sell her based on who her grandparents are. Wonder why they don't have a price listed for her... Hmm..I just double checked and I'm not really sure why they crossed her to R Big Time Fancy. If you want a halter baby you don't breed to a western pleasure horse. And I don't like to breed a SPB to a minimal white. Chances are you will get a solid foal that is not nice enough to halter and doesn't move well enough to pleasure. A 4-H level horse, not a world show level horse. Sheesh. Now I want a nice paint mare to breed.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Oregon Julie said:


> This is actually a big pet peeve of mine. I worked at a QH ranch that had three OWN daughters of Doc Bar, one OWN daughter of King P-234, and a ONW son of Doc O Lena out of the King daughter. People would say "oh yeah I have a Doc Bar horse" and it would be a great-grandchild at best. Sorry folks, it ain't the same thing.


I agree. Unless we're talking no further back than grandparents, I don't care. (Though in reality, I don't usually care _anyway_! lol My best horses have been grade.)


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

There are those who breed for pure papers. A good pedigree is a plus, but when you breed to whatever the "hot" names are and totally overlook the horse itself, well, you end up with hot looking papers and not so hot horses.(Recently saw a breeder advertising old foundation quarter horses and then 'brag' the horse has Impressive in her pedigree...um...ok, just a wee bit confusing. and only saw one breeder try this particular cross..) I think you get this no matter what animal breed you're looking at. Dogs, rabbits, horses.

These breeders see a certain name and add $$$ to the horse.

That's why you can search for a particular bloodline(foundation QH lines lately for me) and see horses that are completely not representative of the line the breeder is advertising. 

But in the end, the breeders will cater to what sells and sadly when it comes to horses, color and pedigree does sell. (doesnt' mean everyone overlooks the horse itself, but if you had to choose between two equally matched horses in temperment and conformation, but one had better papers or a 'special' color, chances are the one with papers would sell first and for more). 

(Particularly struggling with this issue myself as of lately. Someone wanting a high amount for a horse with 'hot' names way back in the pedigree(mixed in with lots of unknowns) and because it's a 'special' color. There is the actual value of the horse and then there is the value of papers/color. *sigh*)


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I tend to do *use* both ... what the horse is/does/ should be able to do and pedigree as well, though in my case, not registration papers as much as pedigree as many of my horses and ponies are crossbreds. 

People will say that horses that are the third generation back in a pedigree cannot have much influence on the animal you are looking at and I know that is usually the case, but not always. If you have a very prepotent stallion that is very strong in certain traits, it can, in fact, carry forward ... I've owned one ... Weltstern. And I own and have seen others in the third generation as well that look very much like my sons and daughters of Weltstern even though he appears just once, three generations back.

When I raised Quarter Horses, we looked for some of those prepotent bloodlines as well when we were buying mares for our breeding program. At the time, we were concentrating on cutting and working cow horse lines and the Doc Bar and "Lena" lines were very consistent with that ability.

I think sometimes it seems as if particular bloodlines get popular with the buyers for somewhat irrational reasons but most of the serious breeders I'm acquainted with are focused on particular lines for more than just their current popularity or marketability. They may be popular as well, but the serious breeders are buying the bloodlines because they are noted for producing the ability in the disciplines they are breeding for.

I've had some outstanding horses with no papers or pedigree at all myself, have even had a number of pony broodmares with no background in some of my foundation lines. But there is always a risk there of having something crop up that you didn't know about because you don't have a background/ pedigree ... and I've had that to deal with as well.


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