# Fist sized bubble hanging out after birth?



## bbbuddy (Jul 29, 2002)

My ND doe had twins last night around midnight, all seemed well, little boy and girl up nursing.
Mom is up and about, acts normal.
BUT along with afterbirth there is now a fist sized bubble of pinkish fluid(looks like amnion fluid) hanging out. Is this another birth-sack, with a baby possibly stuck inside?

Will await answers, hate to "go in" if not necessary, she is so small...


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I would pop it and see if anything is in there...


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## bbbuddy (Jul 29, 2002)

I can see that it is empty except for the amniotic fluid, on the outside...


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I would go in...but don't tear anything out. JEEZ! That's just what I would do...wait a bit and see if anyone else has experienced this...I only have one birthing experience under my belt.


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## dbarjacres (Feb 2, 2004)

I don't know the correct term for it, but in my experience, this is always something that hangs out of the doe before the afterbirth/cleanings come out. It should come out once the doe fully cleans, so shortly if the kids are nursing, that'll release more oxytocin into her blood to get those contractions going again. It puzzled me too at first, I raised horses/donkeys first and the only time you ever saw a "bubble" like that was at the start of the birth when the water broke!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

BTW...Congrats on the babies! Pictures would be awesome


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## bbbuddy (Jul 29, 2002)

dbarjminis, thanks, I feel better about it now. There is what I would call "normal" afterbirth hanging out in addition to this "sack", which I had never seen before, like you. Glad to know that it's ok. 

She is not acting like she is in labor. Up and about, nursing the kids, and eating...


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Have you bounced her?


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## ihedrick (May 15, 2005)

From my limited experience; this is all part of the afterbirth stuff and will come out when the rest is expelled.


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## bbbuddy (Jul 29, 2002)

mygoat, yes, I bounced her, felt nothing, but I don't have a lot of experience with bouncing and feeling babies.

Minelson, went out to take pictures, my digital camera battery dies right after I turned it on...need to recharge it.


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

I would go in and do a gentle sweep. Use general precautions for cleanliness but as Minelson said, take care not to tear anything. This is more reliable than bouncing, but does take practice so you can get the feel of what things are *supposed* to be in there and what-not.

I was visiting a friend this summer who bred her first-freshener ND to one of my ND bucks. I was so fortunate to be there for the birth of the twins. She is far more experienced than I, having many years with pygmies and now a few years with NDs and lots and lots of births of both the livestock and human varieties. When the twins came out their placentas were all twisted and seemingly knotted up. Everything came out ok, but it was odd. It was only the third birth I'd witnessed and I remarked on it. She said she had never seen anything like it before either.


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## Rockytopsis (Dec 29, 2007)

I would not be too quick to invade the nanny, from what I am reading it sounds like normal afterbirth. Some does just take longer than others to pass the afterbirth. If you do go in then you would need to start a round of antibiotics for 5 days. No need to stick her needlessly. The kids nursing will help her contractions and that will help her pass the afterbirth


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## bbbuddy (Jul 29, 2002)

Yeah, it's not the afterbirth I was worried about, I know what that looks like, just never saw the bag of amniotic fluid hanging out afterwards is all...


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

Sounds totally normal.

If she were mine, I WOULD NOT go in at all- if she has not dropped the placenta in 24 hours- btw> the will eat them and can choke- then is when you need to intervene, but not by going in. If the vet wants to give you a shot of Oxytocin, that would put your mind at ease- you do not sound experienced enough yet to help the placenta out- as you gain more experience there's a way to apply gentle tension and help it come on out.


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

It's normal for a goat to have a sac of fliuds hanging out after she kids. Generally, if I can see that ropy afterbirth cord along with it, she's done kidding and is just cleaning out. Usually the kids nursing or you milking her will release her natural oxytocin and she'll expel it.


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

Although I didn't used to think this, now it is my opinion that you do not need to do antibiotics just because you go in. Most breeders around here go in after every birthing to make sure nothing else is in there and almost none have reason to do antibiotics. It's a very gentle sweep, but it is usually done right away after the babies seem to be done coming out and the doe doesn't appear to be in continued labor. You do *not* want to help the placenta come out, as that could tear her internally.

As others have said, I would not worry if she passes the rest of the placenta fairly soon after birth. After more than an hour or so, I'd be on the phone with the vet to be sure.


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## jordan (Nov 29, 2006)

I would leave her be. What you are describing is perfectly natural.
I think way too many people are way to quick to assist in the birthing process and "go in" afterwards to double check when the does are showing no signs of distress. It's all for their own piece of mind, not in the goats best interest. If you have afterbirth and that fluid sack hanging out after, she's up moving around, feeding her kids, eating...she's done. What is the point of invading her and possibly causing infection or damage if mother nature is giving you the answers already?
As for not giving antibiotics after you do you go in, that is just a foolhardy risk. I've yet to see a barn that is 100% sanitary and gloved or not, a hand is a foreign object.
JMHO
Lois


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

This is one of those hot topics. Many opinions, strongly expressed, both sides, or all sides as the case may be.

Those with more experience will act differently, depending on said experience.

There is no single right answer.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

Has she passed it yet or is it still hanging out today? 





bbbuddy said:


> Yeah, it's not the afterbirth I was worried about, I know what that looks like, just never saw the bag of amniotic fluid hanging out afterwards is all...


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## powderhooves (May 11, 2008)

I kidded last year for the first time. I had this same thing and was tempted to pull it out. My neighbor advised me against it. (She has been raising sheep for over 30 years). She said to let the uterus contract and it will expel naturally. She told me if I pulled it and didn't allow the process to proceed naturally she could start bleeding. What the heck do I know. I'm still learning...but just thought I would add what my neighbor told me. Mine did, in fact, expel it.


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## bbbuddy (Jul 29, 2002)

Here's an update for the sake of those who read this in the future...after a day and a half acting normal, this doe started acting like she was in labor again. The bubble of fluid had disappeared shortly after my first post. She expelled a leg, I went in, and found the other rear leg, and pulled a VERY dead kid out.

I should have gone in at the first sign of the bubble of fluid, I might have had triplets.
She is now getting 2.5 cc LA200 daily to prevent metritis, but I would like to know how long to continue this...3 days,5 days...more?


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## Rockytopsis (Dec 29, 2007)

bbbbudy, I am so sorry we seemed to have given you the wrong info. I have seen so many times though that there is a bubble after twins and it is just fluid left from the previous kid.

Do not give LA200 daily. It is a very powerful drug. Penicillin is the one you give daily for 5 days. If she has had more than one shot, don't give her any more of the LA. Do not give the penicillin on top of the LA.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I haven't read all the posts so I might be repeating someone....

I had a doe that had a bubble and it was another kid. I let it go for a day and the following day I ended up pulling a dead kid. 

If there's a bubble, there's a reason for it. I'd go in if I were you.


ETA: I just finished reading the thread, then looked at the dates of the posts. I didn't notice that this thread wasn't new today. 

I'm sorry you lost a kid. I know how bad it feels to loose one. Now you have more experience and will be better prepared if this happens again in the future.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

BBBuddy, We all have different experiences. The bubbles have been with each of my three goat deliveries and two of my sheep deliveries. 

I've been following this thread with interest. I don't think that the bubble had any relationship to a stillborn as I've seen it several times and never had a stillborn.

Paul
edited to add, "I've never helped with a delivery or the bubble. It just expelled with the placenta."


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## cjean (May 1, 2007)

LaManchaPaul said:


> BBBuddy, We all have different experiences. The bubbles have been with each of my three goat deliveries and two of my sheep deliveries.
> 
> I've been following this thread with interest. I don't think that the bubble had any relationship to a stillborn as I've seen it several times and never had a stillborn.
> 
> ...


 We have had sheep and goats for the last four years, and have also seen this bubble several times after the lambing or kidding. Never have we had a stillborn, except for one that was born immediately after the first twin. I tend to agree with you, that the bubble is not related to whether a baby is still in there or not. Maybe a vet or tech could give us more exact info....here, we are all just relying on our own experiences, so I hope there is much forgiveness!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

So sorry for your loss


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## bbbuddy (Jul 29, 2002)

Oh - don't think I blame anyone but me, I could have checked further.

On the LA200, I followed the dose from fiasco farm:

"Goat dose: SQ Injection 
4.5ml per 100 lbs. every 36-48 hours. Administer 3 shots (one every 36-48 hours.) 
OR
3ml per 100 lbs. once daily (this is the dosage I use)"

I cut back on the dose some since this is a Nigerian Dwarf, but the number of days was not given. I have given her a dose now for 3 days running...


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Jan 10, 2004)

It is true that the bubble itself wasn't necessarily indicative of another kid...but had he gone in and done a quick check as a precaution then it would have been found. This is precisely why it should be done...it is for the peace of mind of the breeder, yes, but peace of mind to know that all is done and complete and well.

And no need to routinely give antibiotics anytime that you 'go in'...I don't after each time that I check a woman midwifery client!


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## bbbuddy (Jul 29, 2002)

The antibiotics are because the dead kid was decomposing...not because I went in


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

When my vet has had me use LA200 due to birth issues, he prescribes it every other day for three doses.


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## Rockytopsis (Dec 29, 2007)

Qvrfullmidwife said:


> It is true that the bubble itself wasn't necessarily indicative of another kid...but had he gone in and done a quick check as a precaution then it would have been found. This is precisely why it should be done...it is for the peace of mind of the breeder, yes, but peace of mind to know that all is done and complete and well.
> 
> *And no need to routinely give antibiotics anytime that you 'go in'...I don't after each time that I check a woman midwifery client!*


Sorry I had to laugh at this comment, I would think that you did not check your clients in a barn. I also went and checked Fiasco's recomentations for LA200. They say give it for metritis true, but it does not say give it for the* prevention* of infection, only after the infection has set in. There again it is just my recomendation on La200 and it is how I use it.


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

I'm sorry you lost the kid. It can be hard to advise over the internet without actually seeing the goat. Anytime I'm questioning whether or not there is another kid, I check. We don't always give an antibiotic if we go in, but anytime there is something unusual such as a dead kid, a c section or a prolapse, we always give the oxytet. It seems especially important since the dead kid was in her that long. You don't want to wait til the doe gets an infection. If you do, she may never conceive again.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

very sorry for the loss. you might not have had any different outcome if you would have gone in. the reason that the kid did not come out might have ben because it was dead already and dam did not get enough hormone info to continue with the labor. so, don't feel bad about it.
i would give antibiotic in this case too. 
congrats to your new kids


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

Qvrfullmidwife said:


> It is true that the bubble itself wasn't necessarily indicative of another kid...but had he gone in and done a quick check as a precaution then it would have been found. This is precisely why it should be done...it is for the peace of mind of the breeder, yes, but peace of mind to know that all is done and complete and well.


Yes, which is why I advised doing a gentle sweep as soon as she thought the kiddings had subsided.

To the OP, I'm sorry you lost the kid but very happy you caught it and are treating the doe now.



Qvrfullmidwife said:


> And no need to routinely give antibiotics anytime that you 'go in'...I don't after each time that I check a woman midwifery client!


Yes, I think antibiotics are far too often (over)used and we should beware that they are not usually designed to prevent infection, but to treat it. Of course, the higher the risk of infection, the more likely we are to want to use the antibiotics *just in case*. However, we need to take care not to use any medication as a crutch when it is really not needed. JMO.


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## bbbuddy (Jul 29, 2002)

Had this been a "freshly dead" kid I would not worry, but this kid was already decomposing, as in YUCK. That is the reason for the antibiotics.

The only question I still have is whether to discontinue the shots after 3 days...


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## dbarjacres (Feb 2, 2004)

I'm sorry I gave you bad advice. Well, it's been "true" advice in my experience, but I should have added, but was just to lazy to - sorry about that - that if she didn't clean within 6 hours I would have given her a shot of oxytocin, or if done a hand sweep first if she still hadn't cleaned. 

Sorry about the kid and your experience.

I think the 3 days of LA200 would be enough.


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## PETSNEGGS (Oct 7, 2005)

I'm so sorry for your loss. I sure have learned even more from this thread.


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

BBBuddy Im sorry too. Thank you for sharing, we have all learned alot. 

The first time I had to go in a Boer she had twins. She acted all done but my guts told me there was another one in there. No bubble hanging or anything unusual visually in that dept. A call to my breeder coaching me thru revealed nothing. 
Vet out the next day, she couldnt feel anything either. Meantime doe was going downhill fast...by the 4th day vet out again...there was a mummified kid way up in the horn. Doe on death's door. We put her down.
What I guess Im saying is that at times we dont catch these things even with a vet call. 
How is your doe doing today?


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## bbbuddy (Jul 29, 2002)

Thanks to all who tried to help!

The doe (Jem) is a good mother, one I got by accident when I bought a Nigerian Dwarf buckling to breed to my Nubians (trying for mini-Nubians).

She was thrown in free because she has a "butterfly" nipple.

She freshened last spring for the first time with a single, this breeding was an accident.

Her milk is wonderful, just as good as the Nubians, but the only way I can milk her is with a Maggidan's milker, which works GREAT.

Her doeling has normal nipples!

By the way, that Maggidan's milker works just great, but ONLY with the prefilter, don't even bother unless you get the prefilter. It clogs up constantly without the prefilter, not at all with it...


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Jan 10, 2004)

"I would think that you did not check your clients in a barn."

LOL true, but I DO check my clients in their homes, where they are accustomed to the standard organisms dwelling therein...just as the goats are checked in *their* homes, with *their* familiar organisms...

of course I did just do a birth recently where the mom was really inclined to deliver on her porch with her llama 5 feet behind me looking over my shoulder 

Glad to hear that your doe is doing well now.


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Jan 10, 2004)

And I agree that the antibiotics were warranted due to the kid decomposing, I was really addressing the idea that ANYTIME you go in you need to give antibiotics.


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