# Horse Slaughter New twist



## haypoint

I'll assume that most people understand that horse slaughter in the US was stopped many years ago. A new wrinkle in this business has developed. The Japanese have a new delicacy. Raw, red meat from young Percheron Draft horses.
Bought wherever they can, especially Horse Auctions, yeanlings, yearlings and a few 2 year olds, then shipped to feedlots to finish growing. At the right time, live, healthy Percheron horses are transported to Japan for their final fattening. This industry has pushed the value of these colts from $800 each to over $3,000 each.
While people seeking to "rescue" horses from kill buyers, can do so for a few hundred dollars, the annual sale of 300 or more colts and fillies would overwhelm the pocketbooks and pastures of all but a few rescuers.
This recent spike in prices has caused mare owners to breed in hopes of preventing the upcoming shortage in broke teams as well as supplying the new meat industry.
For those with the room for rescuing horses, will you seek out arthritic, foundered, aged horses or will you save these healthy, young colts that will increase in value as they get older?
Sort of a moral dilemma.


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## HeavyHauler

What's the matter with horse meat for eating?


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## dmm1976

I'd like to know too. Why was horse slaughter stopped? Is it illegal? Who decides which animals are too cute to eat and which are ok. I assume back in the day people didnt eat horse if they could help it because they were so valuable as transportation and farm work. And also they probably don't taste so good.


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## dmm1976

I googled a bit and came across this article that explained some about why Americans are against horse meat as food.

https://www.eater.com/2017/12/15/16741848/horse-meat-restaurants-america-diners-canada

It was interesting.


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## wr

I don't think this is nearly as new as people think. The last I heard (when my youngest worked at the Calgary airport at the start of your slaughter ban), 3 domestic flights a week carrying live horses went to Japan but each week. 

Two additional flights of live horses arrived from the US, documentation indicated that they were sold and shipped to a Canadian company and offloaded long enough to be moved to an international flight. 

You are correct that the horses are all young and healthy with preference being under 5 years old.


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## Irish Pixie

HeavyHauler said:


> What's the matter with horse meat for eating?


Absolutely nothing at all, and if the live ship continues to raise prices all the better.


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## HeavyHauler

I've never had horse meat, but I would definitely eat it.


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## Irish Pixie

dmm1976 said:


> I'd like to know too. Why was horse slaughter stopped? Is it illegal? Who decides which animals are too cute to eat and which are ok. I assume back in the day people didnt eat horse if they could help it because they were so valuable as transportation and farm work. And also they probably don't taste so good.


It's more that some people feel that horses are either pets, or "too majestic" to slaughter for food. And back in the day horses were eaten when they broke a leg or dropped dead in decent weight. I've eaten horse and it's good.

Here's a link to the bill: http://www.horsechannel.com/horse-resources/horse-slaughter-timeline.aspx

After the slaughter ban the price of horses dropped incredibly, and the cases of neglect skyrocketed. It was horrible. People who had no business owning a horse could find a fairly decent one for little or nothing, but had no money for proper farrier work, feeding, or vet care.


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## haypoint

While many people hate the thought of horses trucked to slaughter. There is another thread on this topic now, many want to rescue or re-home every home. Within the horse industry, many see the need for horse slaughter as a place for old, heavy, lame or crazy horses to be put to use. It also establishes a price floor, eliminating the cheap horses.

For young healthy horses to go to slaughter is the new twist. Many breeders of Percheron horses have bought quality mares and spent a lot of time and money locating a quality and suitable stallion. They take pride in the offspring from their farm and it reflects well on their farm when these horses go on to win Championships. While they openly accept that old, crippled or crazy horses go tom slaughter, they are not expecting them to be slaughtered young.

For a number of years the price of young Percheron colts was low enough that a person with some ambition could raise colts and train them and make a small profit. Now, with this quick up tick in prices, these guys can't afford to buy these horses. Currently the price of broke teams hasn't jumped, so there is no money in training horses.

As it is with all commodities, when the demand goes up, the price follows and then people move to fill the demand. That increased supply cools the price and people get out. With Percheron horses, people will breed lower quality mares and use lower quality stallions to produce lower quality colts that will sell for the same prices as the registered quality Percherons. Quality becomes less important. The breed quality will suffer. Not all of those low quality horses will go to Japan.


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## Oregon1986

I see horse meat as just another meat and see nothing wrong with killing a horse for food


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## dmm1976

haypoint said:


> While many people hate the thought of horses trucked to slaughter. There is another thread on this topic now, many want to rescue or re-home every home. Within the horse industry, many see the need for horse slaughter as a place for old, heavy, lame or crazy horses to be put to use. It also establishes a price floor, eliminating the cheap horses.
> 
> For young healthy horses to go to slaughter is the new twist. Many breeders of Percheron horses have bought quality mares and spent a lot of time and money locating a quality and suitable stallion. They take pride in the offspring from their farm and it reflects well on their farm when these horses go on to win Championships. While they openly accept that old, crippled or crazy horses go tom slaughter, they are not expecting them to be slaughtered young.
> 
> For a number of years the price of young Percheron colts was low enough that a person with some ambition could raise colts and train them and make a small profit. Now, with this quick up tick in prices, these guys can't afford to buy these horses. Currently the price of broke teams hasn't jumped, so there is no money in training horses.
> 
> As it is with all commodities, when the demand goes up, the price follows and then people move to fill the demand. That increased supply cools the price and people get out. With Percheron horses, people will breed lower quality mares and use lower quality stallions to produce lower quality colts that will sell for the same prices as the registered quality Percherons. Quality becomes less important. The breed quality will suffer. Not all of those low quality horses will go to Japan.


Ok so any breeder who is breeding high quality for non food reasons wouldn't know who they were selling too? And honestly once it's out of their hands what business is it of theirs what happens to it. Also if someone decides to start breeding and selling lesser quality horses that aren't registered I'd assume that the person who was buying would research the lineage and if they didn't they wouldnt have a registered animal and that's the buyers fault.

I'd guess this is like puppies. Some people will sell puppies as a pure breed, but say they are unregistered but pure. Well Joe schmo buys one for the same price as a registered or a little less thinking he's saving money, obviously he woudnt be able to show that dog or breed it with a registered show dog. I mean I don't see the issue. Someone who wants a pure registered breed of anything needs to do their homework and make sure they know the lineage.


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## happy hermits

We ate horse meat when I was young. I do not see anything wrong with horse meat. It sounds like buying any other animal. Do your research know what you are buying. I wish I could remember what it tasted like .


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## Clem

I see a bright future in making really, really big buns.


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## oneraddad

I ate some horse jerky a couple months ago just so I could say I did, tasted like teriyaki

We have so many wild horses in Nevada I think there should be a season with a two horse limit.


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## oneraddad

I ate alligator on a stick in New Orleans just to say I did also, tasted and looked just like this.


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## wr

dmm1976 said:


> Ok so any breeder who is breeding high quality for non food reasons wouldn't know who they were selling too? And honestly once it's out of their hands what business is it of theirs what happens to it. Also if someone decides to start breeding and selling lesser quality horses that aren't registered I'd assume that the person who was buying would research the lineage and if they didn't they wouldnt have a registered animal and that's the buyers fault.
> 
> I'd guess this is like puppies. Some people will sell puppies as a pure breed, but say they are unregistered but pure. Well Joe schmo buys one for the same price as a registered or a little less thinking he's saving money, obviously he woudnt be able to show that dog or breed it with a registered show dog. I mean I don't see the issue. Someone who wants a pure registered breed of anything needs to do their homework and make sure they know the lineage.


The dog analogy doesn't really work in this case and it's not like puppies at all unless someone is going to start eating all the young, large breed dogs. 

When certain facets of the horse industry become brisk, it seems that people gravitate to heavy breeds, meat industries, pmu farms of the past, etc and this results in virtually no heavy horses available, or priced way out of the range of the average person. 

My father came to own his team simply because a good friend passed away but pmu farms were in high production at that time and the good grade team would have sold for close to $10,000 on the open market. 

Certainly, some buy papered horses based on lineage but others consider good grade horses with good conformation and temperament to be suitable to their needs. Not all heavy horse competitions required registered horses and guys who use heavy horses for farming, will be quick to tell you that papers don't make a better horse. 

I'm not sure where you drew the conclusion that this is an issue that is an issue of lineage, bloodlines or lack of research because it's simply an observation of horse industry trends.


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## Alder

What do they have against Belgian colts and fillies? Too bony?


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## Farmfresh

We need a better kill market for those minis that people LOVE to ruin. Maybe Pony Poppers?


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## Irish Pixie

Farmfresh said:


> We need a better kill market for those minis that people LOVE to ruin. Maybe Pony Poppers?


Snerk.


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## animalfarmer

I couldn't agree more with Farmfresh. Something needs to be done with these substandard surplus mini horses. I am looking for young mini's that I intend to slaughter for pet food. I also plan to handle the carcasses as I do calves that we slaughter here, using electro- stimulation and then aging for an appropriate amount of time. The objective of this is to cut some prime filets off of the carcass to use for our table. Grilling season is almost here!


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## [email protected]

I live just about 20 miles from what used to be 
Fromm Fur Farm..
they no longer raise mink and foxes. but at one time they were the largest in the country.
they used to buy horses by the box car load. 
herd them up the highway about 15 miles and slaughter them.. old, young, firm and non firm..
local farmers would sell their old or sickly worn out horses to Fromms. often they would trade for a healthier one..
Fromms built a large grinder. they would kill a horse or a cow and push it whole, into the grinder.
there were a few smaller fur farms in the area.
they also slaughtered horses.
there is no point to this post other than to point out that horses have been feed for almost a century..

registering horses will do nothing to curb the sale for food. If they are paying $10,ooo.oo already, what difference is a few bucks more for papers ??

I knew about the shipping to Canada a long time ago.


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## Michael W. Smith

[email protected] said:


> Fromms built a large grinder. they would kill a horse or a cow and push it whole, into the grinder.


Did they skin them before putting it into the grinder?
Now that would be something to work there doing that. I could see serial killers getting a job there and coming in to "work" early to get rid of their latest victims.

Why does my brain think like this?!?


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## haypoint

[email protected] said:


> there is no point to this post other than to point out that horses have been feed for almost a century..
> 
> registering horses will do nothing to curb the sale for food. If they are paying $10,ooo.oo already, what difference is a few bucks more for papers ??
> 
> I knew about the shipping to Canada a long time ago.


You have a far different memory than most.
Yes, horses have been sold for food for a very long time. However, in the US it has never been the preferred meat. Horses going to slaughter have always been the cheapest horses, the old, sick, lame or crazy. Young health horses have more value as riding or driving or work horses and were mostly priced out of the reach of the kill buyers.
Much of the horse meat produced in the US was shipped to eastern Canada, Europe and a bit to Mexico. A decade or so ago, US citizens were effective in stopping the slaughter of horses in the US. The idea was to stop the cruel treatment of horses. It was misguided and resulted in a drop in the value of all horses and created a horse shipping industry.
Another misguided attempt to "rescue" horses has turned kill buyers into horse dealers. They are buying both useable and unusable horses, calling them kill horses and kind hearted folks rush in to "rescue" them from the kill pen.
The twist that I started this thread with is the growing of quality, young, healthy, often registered Percheron colts with the single specific purpose of being fed. To me, and many others, that is a significant change. IMHO, we need a place for old, sick, crazy or lame horses to be used. I'm fine with horse slaughter for those cull horses.
The annual number of Percheron colts is small. For a few hundred colds to be diverted to slaughter eliminates entire breeding lines. The market for colts and yearlings has been maintained at a level that permits people an opportunity to grow, train, develop these horses and sell as useable draft horses.
But this new market has driven the price up 300%, out of the range for most colt buyers. It remains to be seen if the horse trainers can outbid the meat buyers or if the meat buyers will continue to outbid those that make these horses useful.
Shipping of old, sick, lame or crazy horses to Canadian slaughter facilities, Mexico, too, is common. Shipping young, healthy draft colts to Canadian feed lots for the Japanese meat market is new.
Most mink and fox farms utilized dead livestock. The huge cattle slaughter facilities in Green Bay receive down or dead cattle that cannot enter the human food chain. They went to the mink or fox farms. Very few such facilities exist and those cows get buried.
All across the land, Rendering facilities gather dead cattle, guts, heads, feet and excess fat from farms and slaughter facilities. They grind it up and cook it. They provide the basics for pet food, chicken food, lipstick and cosmetics. They also reclaim cooking oils. I've visited many such facilities, but never heard of any sort of grinder that would accept a whole cow or horse.


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## Bearfootfarm

Michael W. Smith said:


> Why does my brain think like this?!?


I wouldn't worry as much about thinking that way as I would the urge to *post *it online


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## Bearfootfarm

Part of the problem with allowing horses to be slaughtered for human consumption here is there are few ways to know what medications they have been given as opposed to cattle who are typically raised only for meat. 

If people were raising them under more controlled conditions there would be more of a market.

When slaughter was allowed it was mostly old and abandoned or injured horses who had been "pets" and there were no restrictions or records kept on the medications that were or could be used.


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## JoshuaM

Bearfootfarm said:


> Part of the problem with allowing horses to be slaughtered for human consumption here is there are few ways to know what medications they have been given as opposed to cattle who are typically raised only for meat.
> 
> If people were raising them under more controlled conditions there would be more of a market.
> 
> When slaughter was allowed it was mostly old and abandoned or injured horses who had been "pets" and there were no restrictions or records kept on the medications that were or could be used.


IIRC when a horse is sold into the meat market there is a certificate that must be signed guaranteeing that the horse has been drug free for 90days. If the person selling the horse cannot guarantee that the horse goes into a feedlot for 90 days. In this time any drugs would be passed through their system. For this reason organ meat is not sold for human consumption. There are many articles out there about trace amounts of medications in meat of animals that show withing 60 days the drug is no longer detectable. 

This info from someone who's father is a professional horse trainer and appaloosa breeder, ive spent all my 21 years working with horses and strongly support slaughter. As breeders we can demand a price for our horses that puts the value too high for slaughter plants to make any money, and if a breeder doesnt want their horse to go to slaughter then the dont need to sell it to a meat buyer.... that is their choice, keep it and continue paying the expenses hoping to sell it or cash out for less money now. Its a business, not a charity.


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## Ziemael

HeavyHauler said:


> I've never had horse meat, but I would definitely eat it.


It is pretty good.


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## MomH

I am going to chime in here. I would not knowingly eat horse meat unless I was starving. That's me, that's my culture, that's my love of the animal. Just being honest.
That being said, _*IF*_ horses are killed *HUMANLY* as all animals should be, then I would not have a problem with horse slaughter. But, I would still shed a tear for them, just as I shed a few tears for the chickens I killed for my consumption. 
For the OP, I will admit, I am not up on the draft horse world. Is there a particular reason why the Percheron breed is so desirable for the Japanese market? Also, I know that in the QH and TB and other such lighter breeds, pedigrees are pretty important to some people. Not so much in the draft horse world?


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## haypoint

These colts are often pedigreed, but are being bought above the average price for registered colts. As with all horse breeds, a few of the greatest bloodlines are sold above this new meat market. But the average quality to a bit above average are being bought for meat market.
From the comments posted here, it seems that some hate the thought of any horse, even old, crippled or crazy, going to slaughter. Some see horse meat as a fine meal. A few see the horse meat as necessary to dispose of old lame horses, but don't care to eat it.
But, I see these young healthy colts going into the food stream as a very different thing than the long standing old lame horse slaughter.


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## hiddensprings

haypoint said:


> But, I see these young healthy colts going into the food stream as a very different thing than the long standing old lame horse slaughter.


I’m definitely a horse-lover and don’t believe I could eat horse meat unless it was the only thing available and I was starving. That being said, I guess I would compare these young healthy horses to young healthy calves. It’s really the same thing isn’t it? We have ranchers/farmers that have registered angus cattle that sell healthy calves every day. These horses are simply cattle in horse-clothing when they enter the food chain. At least that’s how I look at it.


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## TedH71

In the past during the Great Depression, lots of your grandparents ate horse meat. Lots of it used to go to zoos for their carnivores to have for dinner. I've been told horse meat tends to be lighter in flavor compared to beef and is considered more "healthier" than beef.


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## haypoint

I guess I'm not doing a very good job expressing my concern. Maybe people do equate horses as cattle with saddles.
In the US, the consumption of horse meat has always been the result of culling old, injured, crazy horses. I support the slaughter of these horses. I support the transport of old, injured, crazy horses to Quebec for slaughter.
But when horse owners buy and care for draft mares, then select a stallion with the intent on improving the usability of this breed, insure proper nutrition of the mare during gestation, spend countless hours checking in anticipation of the birth. Then if all goes right, a healthy colt is born. Then the hours bonding and training to lead and perhaps during that critical first year, start training, with harness, to ground drive. Then you take your colt to auction and hope there are some people that will want to continue the training and provide a few decades of care in return for the colt's usefulness. Generally, a price of $1000 to $2000 will get you a good yearling.
But now those prospective buyers are out bid by a new demand for colts, meat. The relatively small numbers of Percheron horses makes bloodlines critical. The high numbers going to meat will wipe out entire genetic lines.
No breeder of Percheron draft horses is in business to supply a meat market. By raising colts that would sell above the money paid for old, lame, crazy, they were assured that the prodigy of their horses would go on to provide work and pleasure to other horsemen.
There are people that earn a living buying colts and investing a couple years feeding, caring, hoof trimming, shoeing, vaccinating and training in harness, so that they could provide ready to work broke teams. That is an investment of a lot of work, time and money. A lot can go wrong during that development. But when the cost of a colt doubles or triples, the expectation of a financial return on the investment is gone.
Simply out bidding the meat buyer isn't the solution. The demand for meat horses will remain and any attempts to save these colts will simply just raise the price of colts going to slaughter and price even more people out of the draft horse market.


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## Grey Mare

oneraddad said:


> I ate some horse jerky a couple months ago just so I could say I did, tasted like teriyaki
> 
> We have so many wild horses in Nevada I think there should be a season with a two horse limit.


I call BS on this oneraddad...I am from Nevada, grew up there, graduated from Douglas High in Minden, and through my middle and high school I talked on behalf of our mustangs at the government and congress seats. While BLM may claim they are honest and true to the numbers they say are out there, I know from a fact that they will sometimes double count, misquote numbers or show there are more than less. 

As for eating horse...I would rather starve thanks. I wasn't raised to believe that horse is meat. I don't care to hear it, to see it, or to know that someone is eating a horse, even if it is "the norm" for some. On my farm, my horses and critters are treated as well as my children, they are fed first, then I come in and feed family, that is how it has always been done growing up, and it continues on with me. 

I view horses as partners for work. Using my draft team for farm work, education, teaching others how to harness, ground drive so they have the basics down, bringing smiles to others. My 2 Quarter Horses were used to teach young horses to walk nice on a lead, to pony and break to saddle, to herd cows and anything else I needed. I would no sooner eat a horse than I would my own children. It is abhorrent to me. 

As for what should be done with the over population...my views don't, nor will, garner accolades, I feel that breeders shouldn't be breeding willy nilly, that goes for backyard breeders. Just because it has a uterus or penis doesn't mean it should reproduce. There should be a reason for it, not just because Meadow Muffin is "cute" or a "pretty color", but something that would enhance or give back to the breed. If you have a horse then you had best have money to properly dispose of it when it comes time, as they aren't cheap. Can't afford vet bills, shots, shoeing, etc...then don't get one. You going to let Gram suffer once she gets old because you can't afford a nursing home or meds? No? Then don't let your horse suffer either. Put it down and do the right thing, don't ship it off to some ignorant slob. 

You bred it, you take it back. Simple.


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## wr

Grey Mare said:


> I call BS on this oneraddad...I am from Nevada, grew up there, graduated from Douglas High in Minden, and through my middle and high school I talked on behalf of our mustangs at the government and congress seats. While BLM may claim they are honest and true to the numbers they say are out there, I know from a fact that they will sometimes double count, misquote numbers or show there are more than less.
> 
> As for eating horse...I would rather starve thanks. I wasn't raised to believe that horse is meat. I don't care to hear it, to see it, or to know that someone is eating a horse, even if it is "the norm" for some. On my farm, my horses and critters are treated as well as my children, they are fed first, then I come in and feed family, that is how it has always been done growing up, and it continues on with me.
> 
> I view horses as partners for work. Using my draft team for farm work, education, teaching others how to harness, ground drive so they have the basics down, bringing smiles to others. My 2 Quarter Horses were used to teach young horses to walk nice on a lead, to pony and break to saddle, to herd cows and anything else I needed. I would no sooner eat a horse than I would my own children. It is abhorrent to me.
> 
> As for what should be done with the over population...my views don't, nor will, garner accolades, I feel that breeders shouldn't be breeding willy nilly, that goes for backyard breeders. Just because it has a uterus or penis doesn't mean it should reproduce. There should be a reason for it, not just because Meadow Muffin is "cute" or a "pretty color", but something that would enhance or give back to the breed. If you have a horse then you had best have money to properly dispose of it when it comes time, as they aren't cheap. Can't afford vet bills, shots, shoeing, etc...then don't get one. You going to let Gram suffer once she gets old because you can't afford a nursing home or meds? No? Then don't let your horse suffer either. Put it down and do the right thing, don't ship it off to some ignorant slob.
> 
> You bred it, you take it back. Simple.


I appreciate that you'd rather not eat horse meat but there are those that do eat it and enjoy it very much and there is no reason their opinion is less valid. 

I've raised and trained horses for many years and while I have no problem buying my own back, within reason. I'll purchase what I raised and trained provided it's in same condition. I have no interest in refunding $5,000.00, for a horse that has been lamed, injured or become dangerous. 

I sell good horses to good owners on good faith but can't control what happens 5 years down the road and I run a ranch not a zoo. 

Part of the miseries you speak of are actually because of the slaughter ban. The surplus of horses has left them cheap enough that people who can't afford to keep them can still afford to buy them and they do it without any thought to the ongoing associated costs.


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## Grey Mare

WR...I know that others eat horse, as I said, that is what they do but I personally don't want to know, see, hear, or know. I have a very strong love of horses, partly due to growing up with them, as I said they were our partners for work, and I think also, being Native American I view them as part of my family. Not to say that they also didn't eat horses, they did. But it isn't for me, something I feel passionately about. 

I can see how what I said can in some ways contribute to the surplus. I have also seen mind numbing ignorance when it comes to horse management and care from backyard folks as well.


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## wr

Grey Mare said:


> WR...I know that others eat horse, as I said, that is what they do but I personally don't want to know, see, hear, or know. I have a very strong love of horses, partly due to growing up with them, as I said they were our partners for work, and I think also, being Native American I view them as part of my family. Not to say that they also didn't eat horses, they did. But it isn't for me, something I feel passionately about.
> 
> I can see how what I said can in some ways contribute to the surplus. I have also seen mind numbing ignorance when it comes to horse management and care from backyard folks as well.


Many tribes ate horse meat quite often and many people change their minds about protein sources when they're hungry. 

Ultimately, I respect your belief that your horses are like your children but I disagree with you disrespecting another member because he doesn't elevate horses to human status.

It's also worth mentioning that most tribes maintain a band of horses and tend to be the greatest single contributors to the slaughter market.


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## Grey Mare

Can you show me links that tribes send horses to the slaughter market please? And as for my disrespect, I stand by what I said. I can walk away from most anything but this is a very hot button for me. The way some people talk about it, almost with glee at eating a horse, turns my stomach. And I know enough with homeopathic medicine and outdoor to probably be hungry but not starve...and hope to never have to choose between horse or otherwise...as for the moment, I would find another alternative.


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## wr

Grey Mare said:


> Can you show me links that tribes send horses to the slaughter market please? And as for my disrespect, I stand by what I said. I can walk away from most anything but this is a very hot button for me. The way some people talk about it, almost with glee at eating a horse, turns my stomach. And I know enough with homeopathic medicine and outdoor to probably be hungry but not starve...and hope to never have to choose between horse or otherwise...as for the moment, I would find another alternative.


Is it unrealistic to accept the fact that someone simply enjoy different foods? Some joyfully savour a big ribeye, some savour camelids and some cultures savour horse. 

The French and Asians are quite fond of it and it’s a primary part of their diet. It’s also worth noting that they aren’t eating your workmate but most likely someone’s poorly conceive breeding program.

You may not like the idea and you may think the slaughter ban is preventing it but it’s not. People butcher there own and several flights a week are leaving the US loaded with live horses heading for Asia.


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## aoconnor1

I don’t think Grey mare was being disrespectful at all, simply stating her preferences and thoughts, likes and dislikes, and is passionate about what she believes. I feel the way about eating horses. I love my horses and simply couldn’t eat one unless it was the last thing to eat and I was starving. 

Just because one person doesn’t agree with another doesn’t mean they are disrespectful, it simply means they don’t see things the same way as another might. Each is entitled to their opinion without being called out as disrespectful just because one doesn’t agree with them.

I dislike the thought of horses being eaten as well, and should be entitled to that thought as it is my own. I don’t put others down who may eat horses, and I certainly didn’t read that into what Grey mare said, she didn’t pick on or put down those who said they would or do eat it, but simply has an opposite reaction to the thought and is allowed to have that reaction as much as those in favor of consuming horse meat are allowed their own thoughts.


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## wr

aoconnor1 said:


> I don’t think Grey mare was being disrespectful at all, simply stating her preferences and thoughts, likes and dislikes, and is passionate about what she believes. I feel the way about eating horses. I love my horses and simply couldn’t eat one unless it was the last thing to eat and I was starving.
> 
> Just because one person doesn’t agree with another doesn’t mean they are disrespectful, it simply means they don’t see things the same way as another might. Each is entitled to their opinion without being called out as disrespectful just because one doesn’t agree with them.
> 
> I dislike the thought of horses being eaten as well, and should be entitled to that thought as it is my own. I don’t put others down who may eat horses, and I certainly didn’t read that into what Grey mare said, she didn’t pick on or put down those who said they would or do eat it, but simply has an opposite reaction to the thought and is allowed to have that reaction as much as those in favor of consuming horse meat are allowed their own thoughts.


Calling another member's opinion BS is not respectful at any level. The horse forum has always maintained a family environment and respect for all member's opinions and it's not about to change regardless of an individual's 'passion'.


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## JoshuaM

Grey Mare said:


> Can you show me links that tribes send horses to the slaughter market please? And as for my disrespect, I stand by what I said. I can walk away from most anything but this is a very hot button for me. The way some people talk about it, almost with glee at eating a horse, turns my stomach. And I know enough with homeopathic medicine and outdoor to probably be hungry but not starve...and hope to never have to choose between horse or otherwise...as for the moment, I would find another alternative.


"In many instances tribal authorities remove and sell these horses into the slaughter pipeline. Sometimes these removals create a huge public interest; many times happen without any knowledge outside the borders of the reservation. *Legally these are NOT considered wild horses but the private property of tribal members*; most often seen as domestic livestock by the tribe, just like their cows.

At this moment (5/2014) the Yakima (Yakama) tribes in Washington state are removing and selling horses through a known killbuyer they have worked with before."

As a note the Yakima have been pushing for a horse slaughter facility on tribal land."

https://wildhorseeducation.org/reality-of-wild-horse-slaughter/

There.


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## oneraddad

Wild horses like other Nevada wildlife should be controlled because there's only so much resources in the desert to go around. I think it should be like coyotes, shoot as many as you like and just leave them lie unless you want the hide or meat.

This just happened in AZ











https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/201...es-found-dead-in-Navajo-Nation/8561525652295/


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## haypoint

wr said:


> It’s also worth noting that they aren’t eating your workmate but most likely someone’s poorly conceive breeding program.


My point here, the "new twist" is that there is a big demand for healthy, Percheron yearlings and two year olds and prices are four or five times what was being paid for them a few years ago. The Percheron breed is not a large association and to have 500 or a thousand young, healthy, sound, often registered yearlings and two year olds diverted to the meat market is entirely different than the off spring of a sickle hocked mare bred to a sway backed pony that you refer to.
Maybe I draw the line in the sand in a different place than you. Some think every horse should be eaten.Some think no horses should be eaten, ever. Some think that unsound, crippled, injured, crazy and old horses should be eaten. I'm in that group. But taking a relatively large segment of young horses of the Percheron breed to the feed lot and then exported to Japan is troubling.


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## Irish Pixie

haypoint said:


> My point here, the "new twist" is that there is a big demand for healthy, Percheron yearlings and two year olds and prices are four or five times what was being paid for them a few years ago. The Percheron breed is not a large association and to have 500 or a thousand young, healthy, sound, often registered yearlings and two year olds diverted to the meat market is entirely different than the off spring of a sickle hocked mare bred to a sway backed pony that you refer to.
> Maybe I draw the line in the sand in a different place than you. Some think every horse should be eaten.Some think no horses should be eaten, ever. Some think that unsound, crippled, injured, crazy and old horses should be eaten. I'm in that group. But taking a relatively large segment of young horses of the Percheron breed to the feed lot and then exported to Japan is troubling.


What's the difference between eating a registered Percheron and a registered Charolais? If the market is calling for Percheron, that's what is going to sell.


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## haypoint

Irish Pixie said:


> What's the difference between eating a registered Percheron and a registered Charolais? If the market is calling for Percheron, that's what is going to sell.


I agree, it is difficult to articulate the difference. The folks raising beef cattle are in the business of providing meat. These cattle have been a source of food for thousands of years. Nearly all, perhaps all of those raising Percherons, are seeking to improve the breed as either work horses or hitch horses. Most also accept that horses unsuited to these uses, due to defects, injury or age, will go to slaughter or buried on farm. Many breeders of Percherons track the successes of their sold horses and the successes of the succeeding generations.
An active slaughter market provides a "floor" for the horse market. This provides a place for old, lame, crazy horses. This floor helps maintain better prices for the horses above this floor.
But this "new twist" isn't focused on culling the old, lame or crazy horses. This market is directed at the young and healthy. The demand is not fettered by price. The demand is shown to be able to out bid those seeking teams for working or showing, often by thousands of dollars.
By paying far more for young horses than trained teams, those in the occupation of training teams are put out of business. Then those in the business of using trained horses will eventually run out of trained horses.
Right now, these colts were not intended for meat. Breeders are anticipating their colts will go in to many years of farm or show work and be well cared for.
With an increase in value of colts, spurs breeding, including low quality horses. Any overproduction of low quality production will continue in the breed, perhaps setting back gains made over the past hundred years.


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## oneraddad

My rancher buddies get elk tags because there's too many elk on their property, but they're helpless with the wild horses. Horses are not native to Nevada and are an invasive species like a weed and need to be eradicated as such. Leave the water and habitat for our native wildlife !


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## oneraddad

My grandpa showed up in Winnemucca from Spain around 1900 to herd sheep, I know a bit about Northern Nevada myself having lived here for 60 years.


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## Grey Mare

oneraddad said:


> My grandpa showed up in Winnemucca from Spain around 1900 to herd sheep, I know a bit about Northern Nevada myself having lived here for 60 years.


So your Basque? To each his own....


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## Irish Pixie

haypoint said:


> I agree, it is difficult to articulate the difference. The folks raising beef cattle are in the business of providing meat. These cattle have been a source of food for thousands of years. Nearly all, perhaps all of those raising Percherons, are seeking to improve the breed as either work horses or hitch horses. Most also accept that horses unsuited to these uses, due to defects, injury or age, will go to slaughter or buried on farm. Many breeders of Percherons track the successes of their sold horses and the successes of the succeeding generations.
> An active slaughter market provides a "floor" for the horse market. This provides a place for old, lame, crazy horses. This floor helps maintain better prices for the horses above this floor.
> But this "new twist" isn't focused on culling the old, lame or crazy horses. This market is directed at the young and healthy. The demand is not fettered by price. The demand is shown to be able to out bid those seeking teams for working or showing, often by thousands of dollars.
> By paying far more for young horses than trained teams, those in the occupation of training teams are put out of business. Then those in the business of using trained horses will eventually run out of trained horses.
> Right now, these colts were not intended for meat. Breeders are anticipating their colts will go in to many years of farm or show work and be well cared for.
> With an increase in value of colts, spurs breeding, including low quality horses. Any overproduction of low quality production will continue in the breed, perhaps setting back gains made over the past hundred years.


There will be breeders of draft horses that breed to this new market, just as beef cattle breeders do. Do your part to save your breed of choice, start a breeding operation to keep the lines and conformation standards up to snuff.


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## Grey Mare

Irish Pixie....the Percheron draft horse was almost eradicated during WWI when many of them were shipped over from the US to France, we almost lost the breed entirely. Also the invention of tractors to do the farm work in half the time a team of drafts can do it, iff it wasn't for those who loved the breed for it's great attributes and strength, we would of lost the breed. 

Today, those who still use the Percheron and try to improve the breed, such as Haypoint and others, even if we do breeding and bring the original body and bone, hoof and strength back to what they should be, there is always other breeders who are breeding solely to make money. We can try hard but you know how that goes when other's aren't' so concerned for the animal itself and how they are bred. It isn't so simple to "do our part", so many things are already against a good, honest, knowledgeable breeder....


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## Irish Pixie

Grey Mare said:


> Irish Pixie....the Percheron draft horse was almost eradicated during WWI when many of them were shipped over from the US to France, we almost lost the breed entirely. Also the invention of tractors to do the farm work in half the time a team of drafts can do it, iff it wasn't for those who loved the breed for it's great attributes and strength, we would of lost the breed.
> 
> Today, those who still use the Percheron and try to improve the breed, such as Haypoint and others, even if we do breeding and bring the original body and bone, hoof and strength back to what they should be, there is always other breeders who are breeding solely to make money. We can try hard but you know how that goes when other's aren't' so concerned for the animal itself and how they are bred. It isn't so simple to "do our part", so many things are already against a good, honest, knowledgeable breeder....


Exactly, and they were brought back by dedicated breeders correct?

Horses are livestock not pets and any type, breed, etc. can be raised and sold for meat.


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## Grey Mare

Irish Pixie said:


> Exactly, and they were brought back by dedicated breeders correct?
> 
> Horses are livestock not pets and any type, breed, etc. can be raised and sold for meat.


Not to some of us. Have you ever had a horse? Raised it or known it it's entire lifetime then lost it or had to make the heartbreaking decision to put it to sleep? I have. When I put my Trixie Doodle to sleep, in the wee hours of the morning after battling over a year with colic, every known test to figure out what was wrong, then to realize it was cancer, a part of me went with her when we buried her on our farm. That is a feeling you can't describe when you have a bond with a really good team of mares, and you won't understand unless you own an work them yourself and develop that deep bond.

Have you ever been associated and worked with a breed association of any type? Again, I have. I was a member of the Percheron Horse Association for many years, supported them, sponsored classes in local shows, B rated shows at our county fairs and at the top A rated shows at the Percheron Congress. Unless you are a well known, have money to burn, show ONLY in the A rated shows with a 6+ hitch class of Percheron's that you have sponsorship with some well known names, what you say, how you campaign it, or present it, isn't going to mean a plug nickle. 

Those who keep the Percheron alive, who worry about their build, bone, blood lines, how they are raised, used, and training, are us backyard farmers, breeders, and our voice isn't often heard in the association. How do I know this? Because at Congress one year I mentioned something about scotch bottom shoes being used, what they hide, and a very well known member snorted at me from across the table and to my face told me, it is the top name breeders who keep the breed alive, that the public wants to see the "fire breathing Hackney on steroid" looking Percheron, not our plugs in the field.


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## Irish Pixie

Regardless of your emotional response, horses are livestock the same as a cow, pig, sheep, or goat. 

If you want to save the wild horses, certain breeds, etc. by all means do it, but you can't wave a magic wand and make them pets like dogs and cats because they are not. 

There isn't much point in discussing this further, if you are truly worried about the Percheron breed start a breeding program yourself.


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## haypoint

It is the new twisted economics that is the problem.
Breeders can breed quality horses. But when mature trained horses are selling at $4000 each and yearlings and 2 year olds are being purchased for $2800 as meat animals, no one can buy and train and stay in business. The supply of broke teams keeps the price at $4000 each. A shorter supply of broke teams will not push their value up, because there is a limit on what work can be done, weighed by the cost of feed and upkeep.
So, for the Percheron breed, the loss of a few thousand healthy young horses per year will have the same effect as when tractor dealers were buying sound broke teams and sending them to slaughter as a way to drive up the demand for tractors.
If I had a yearling mare, out of a top quality mare and sired by a National Champion stallion, it is quite likely that the buyers that want to train, care for and perhaps breed that colt will be outbid by the meat buyer. Few can hold onto several years worth of colts, shielding them from the meat buyer, wait for them to be 3 years old (unwanted by the meat buyer) and sell them for $3000 each so a trainer can buy them.
I would suggest that you keep your opinion to yourself in any riding stable in the nation, most horse owners would be offended by anyone placing horses in the livestock category.

Right now there is a huge push to rescue old, lame horses from the kill pens. Killer horse buyers are capitalizing on this by buying the old and lame, plus any cheaper horse they can buy. Rescue groups are paying a premium to "save" these horses. Killer horse buyers are getting rich supplying old, lame and somewhat poor quality horses to those that feel they are saving a horse's life. This is a segment of the horse industry that exists among the cheapest horses. Some should go to good homes, some should go to slaughter and some should be buried on site.
But, to me, the sale of quality young horses to slaughter is different. I don't hear any "horse rescues" clamoring to save these healthy young colts.
I guess it is like animal shelters. 50,000 pets euthanized for lack of a home, many young, trained and healthy. But if you poke out an eye, chop off a leg, people are clamoring to "rescue" the dog.


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## Irish Pixie

haypoint said:


> It is the new twisted economics that is the problem.
> Breeders can breed quality horses. But when mature trained horses are selling at $4000 each and yearlings and 2 year olds are being purchased for $2800 as meat animals, no one can buy and train and stay in business. The supply of broke teams keeps the price at $4000 each. A shorter supply of broke teams will not push their value up, because there is a limit on what work can be done, weighed by the cost of feed and upkeep.
> So, for the Percheron breed, the loss of a few thousand healthy young horses per year will have the same effect as when tractor dealers were buying sound broke teams and sending them to slaughter as a way to drive up the demand for tractors.
> If I had a yearling mare, out of a top quality mare and sired by a National Champion stallion, it is quite likely that the buyers that want to train, care for and perhaps breed that colt will be outbid by the meat buyer. Few can hold onto several years worth of colts, shielding them from the meat buyer, wait for them to be 3 years old (unwanted by the meat buyer) and sell them for $3000 each so a trainer can buy them.
> I would suggest that you keep your opinion to yourself in any riding stable in the nation, most horse owners would be offended by anyone placing horses in the livestock category.
> 
> Right now there is a huge push to rescue old, lame horses from the kill pens. Killer horse buyers are capitalizing on this by buying the old and lame, plus any cheaper horse they can buy. Rescue groups are paying a premium to "save" these horses. Killer horse buyers are getting rich supplying old, lame and somewhat poor quality horses to those that feel they are saving a horse's life. This is a segment of the horse industry that exists among the cheapest horses. Some should go to good homes, some should go to slaughter and some should be buried on site.
> But, to me, the sale of quality young horses to slaughter is different. I don't hear any "horse rescues" clamoring to save these healthy young colts.
> I guess it is like animal shelters. 50,000 pets euthanized for lack of a home, many young, trained and healthy. But if you poke out an eye, chop off a leg, people are clamoring to "rescue" the dog.


You've reworked the same information in at least two posts now, bottom line- what are you going to do about it? It's not illegal to raise and sell livestock to slaughter. Are you going to keep your breed of choice up to current standards by implementing a breeding program?


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## Grey Mare

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope, I'm not touchy at all, according to your post I'm "callous and cold".
> 
> You (collective you) have options- start a breeding program to keep your standard of Percheron or whine on the internet about breeding livestock for slaughter that is completely legal. It's your choice.


Please answer my questions then on my lengthy post then please.....your for it...I am against it...ever felt passionately about something? I do, about horses.


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## HeavyHauler

So wait, you'll shoot a deer and eat it; but not a horse?

Seems a little silly.

Meat is meat.

Horses are a livestock animal. They can also be pets. Also be "athletes", work animals, etc.

You don't want to eat them? Fine, don't.

If other people do, why are you trying to stop them? Who the hell are you to make decisions for others, or have your way implemented in their lives?

You say money is a limiting factor in your future "breeding program", so make more money. Work harder. Pare down your spending and save more.

If it's so important to you, you would do what it takes to get there. Wouldn't you?

Also, breeders brought back whatever breed of horse you deem incredibly important; so they can keep breeding to provide horses to people that want them for other uses than eating. How is that gonna go away?

You remind me of those people who create social media accounts for their pets and pretend to be them, talk for them, etc. Bunch of weirdos.

But hey, to each their own. Just don't impose your crap on me or anyone else who doesn't want it.

There's a guy in town who sells "exotic" meats. I think I'll purchase some horse meat to see what the big deal is.

Anyone know what kind of seasonings would go well on a horse steak?


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## oneraddad

The horse I ate was in a pepperoni stick and was kinda dry, I'd add some pork fat to it if I ever made them myself.


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## HeavyHauler

oneraddad said:


> The horse I ate was in a pepperoni stick and was kinda dry, I'd add some pork fat to it if I ever made them myself.


That would be a good idea.


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## gerold

HeavyHauler said:


> What's the matter with horse meat for eating?


Horses originated in North American. China and Japan people will eat anything.

DT and a lady in government who put the idea to DT that there is nothing wrong with butchering horse meat and selling it in American.
It will save government money to slaughter horses in the U.S. instead of paying government money to feed them. This is Trumps deals to cut the high cost of government.
No true Christian would eat a horse. Book of Leviticus rules out the eating of horse meat.
Graham(R-S.C.) a true Christian and others have presented a bill to not slaughter U.S. horses. Others have also put up bill against this Trump bill to kill horses for meat.
The U.S. congress has been down this road many times before.


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## HeavyHauler

gerold said:


> Horses originated in North American. China and Japan people will eat anything.
> 
> DT and a lady in government who put the idea to DT that there is nothing wrong with butchering horse meat and selling it in American.
> It will save government money to slaughter horses in the U.S. instead of paying government money to feed them. This is Trumps deals to cut the high cost of government.
> No true Christian would eat a horse. Book of Leviticus rules out the eating of horse meat.
> Graham(R-S.C.) a true Christian and others have presented a bill to not slaughter U.S. horses. Others have also put up bill against this Trump bill to kill horses for meat.
> The U.S. congress has been down this road many times before.


I am not a Christian and many Christians are not true Christians.

I forget, which part of the bible had the Book of Leviticus? The old or new? I'm a little rusty.


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## wr

I understand conviction in one's opinion but keep it civil and respect other people's opinions as well.


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## Irish Pixie

HeavyHauler said:


> That would be a good idea.


Everything is good in a taco. Just sayin'.


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## gerold

gerold said:


> Horses originated in North American. China and Japan people will eat anything.
> 
> DT and a lady in government who put the idea to DT that there is nothing wrong with butchering horse meat and selling it in American.
> It will save government money to slaughter horses in the U.S. instead of paying government money to feed them. This is Trumps deals to cut the high cost of government.
> No true Christian would eat a horse. Book of Leviticus rules out the eating of horse meat.
> Graham(R-S.C.) a true Christian and others have presented a bill to not slaughter U.S. horses. Others have also put up bill against this Trump bill to kill horses for meat.
> The U.S. congress has been down this road many times before.


Congress has just renewed the ban on slaughter of horses in the U.S.
This should please all the Christians and horse lovers.


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## Irish Pixie

gerold said:


> Congress has just renewed the ban on slaughter of horses in the U.S.


Do you have a link? I don't think this is true. There are no active slaughter houses for horses regulated by the USDA in the US (the last two/three closed in 2007) but it's not illegal to slaughter horses, or send to Mexico or Canada for slaughter. California may have an actual ban for shipment to slaughter, I know it was in the works, but I'm not sure it was signed into law.


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## gerold

HeavyHauler said:


> I am not a Christian and many Christians are not true Christians.
> 
> I forget, which part of the bible had the Book of Leviticus? The old or new? I'm a little rusty.


Leviticus 3rd book of Torah and old testament.


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## Irish Pixie

gerold said:


> Leviticus 3rd book of Torah and old testament.


Leviticus is the one that demands no eating of shellfish, not cutting the sides of your hair, no tattoos, no clothes of mixed fibers, etc. right?


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## gerold

Irish Pixie said:


> Leviticus is the one that demands no eating of shellfish, not cutting the sides of your hair, no tattoos, no clothes of mixed fibers, etc. right?


Maybe you should read and post all of it. Instead of just a little that doesn't deal with horses.


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## gerold

Si


Irish Pixie said:


> Do you have a link? I don't think this is true. There are no active slaughter houses for horses regulated by the USDA in the US (the last two/three closed in 2007) but it's not illegal to slaughter horses, or send to Mexico or Canada for slaughter. California may have an actual ban for shipment to slaughter, I know it was in the works, but I'm not sure it was signed into law.


Signed into law today. DT signed it. USA today.


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## Irish Pixie

gerold said:


> Maybe you should read and post all of it. Instead of just a little that doesn't deal with horses.


Sure, this a blog piece about things banned in Leviticus and their penalties, but the only thing we're discussing on this forum is the ban on eating non cloven hoofed animals. 

http://hill-kleerup.org/blog/2012/06/13/76-things-banned-in-leviticus-and-their-penalties.html


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## gerold

Irish Pixie said:


> Sure, this a blog piece about things banned in Leviticus and their penalties, but the only thing we're discussing on this forum is the ban on eating non cloven hoofed animals.
> 
> http://hill-kleerup.org/blog/2012/06/13/76-things-banned-in-leviticus-and-their-penalties.html


Whatever.-))


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## Irish Pixie

gerold said:


> Si
> 
> Signed into law today. DT signed it. USA today.


It was not signed into law, the ban that would have expired Friday was extended. It's a moot point, there has been no USDA horse slaughter in the US since 2007. 

"A ban on slaughtering horses for meat has been renewed after a group of bipartisan animal lovers in Congressgot it included in a massive spending bill that President Trump signed last week.

“The slaughter of horses for human consumption is a barbaric practice that must end,” said Rep. Vern Buchanan, R-Fla., co-chairman of the Animal Protection Caucus, a bipartisan group of more than 100 members of Congress. 

Although eating horse meat is considered taboo in the United States, customs are different in parts of Europe and Asia. China is one of the largest consumers of horse meat.

The last three horse slaughterhouses — two in Texas and one in Illinois — were closed in 2007. Opponents of horse slaughter fear that lifting the ban would result in those plantsre-opening."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-renewal-spending-law-trump-signed/459076002/

There is no ban on shipping horses to slaughter to either Mexico or Canada.


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## Irish Pixie

gerold said:


> Whatever.-))


That's not very nice, you asked for the information and I provided it along with the details of the extension of the ban.


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## gerold

Irish Pixie said:


> That's not very nice, you asked for the information and I provided it along with the details of the extension of the ban.


There is also another bill that would ban shipment of horses to Canada and Mexican for slaughter from Graham and others. It is penning. DT may sign it also, but still a question on it. U.S.A. has the updates on all this.


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## Irish Pixie

gerold said:


> There is also another bill that would ban shipment of horses to Canada and Mexican for slaughter from Graham and others. It is penning. DT may sign it also, but still a question on it. U.S.A. has the updates on all this.


Do you have a link? I didn't notice it when I was searching earlier.


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## gerold

Irish Pixie said:


> Do you have a link? I didn't notice it when I was searching earlier.


Google: USA today horse meat ban signed by congress and trump.


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## Irish Pixie

gerold said:


> Google: USA today horse meat ban signed by congress and trump.


That's the same link I found for you before. There is a bill "The bill was also introduced in the Senate by Sens. Bob Menendez, D-N.J.; Lindsey Graham, R-S.C.; Sheldon Whitehouse, D-R.I.; and Susan Collins, R-Maine." but it has not passed either the Senate or the House. This is the same bill that is brought up annually, "Banning horse slaughter has become an annual fight", it has lost for over 10 years.

Do you realize that if the bill is passed that there will be in increase in neglect and abuse cases? There are regulations for humane shipment to slaughter (at least in most states) but there is no law with teeth that will punish someone for allowing starvation or neglect. Be careful for what you wish for.


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## HeavyHauler

gerold said:


> Leviticus 3rd book of Torah and old testament.


Right, that's what I thought.

Christians deal with which part of the bible near exclusively, except when convenient? Ahh yes, the New Testament. When Christ appeared.

Anyway, eat what you want. God hasn't smote me down yet.


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## haypoint

1. The Feds just unfund meat inspections of horse slaughter facilities, stopping any economical benefit to horse slaughter. They don't need to "outlaw" horse slaughter.
2. Most horse people support horse slaughter as a way to utilize old, lame and crazy horses and reduce horse overpopulation. Most also agree that hauling the horses to Mexico or Quebec result in more stress.
3. The legality or illegality of the slaughter of cull horses is not the topic of this discussion. It is the topic of other discussions, elsewhere.


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## Irish Pixie

haypoint said:


> 1. The Feds just unfund meat inspections of horse slaughter facilities, stopping any economical benefit to horse slaughter. They don't need to "outlaw" horse slaughter.
> 2. Most horse people support horse slaughter as a way to utilize old, lame and crazy horses and reduce horse overpopulation. Most also agree that hauling the horses to Mexico or Quebec result in more stress.
> 3. The legality or illegality of the slaughter of cull horses is not the topic of this discussion. It is the topic of other discussions, elsewhere.


1- This has been discussed in detail via the recent bills. Horse slaughter in the US isn't banned, it's that the government never funded inspectors so there are no USDA slaughter houses. 

2- Slaughter is slaughter, are only old, lame and crazy cows, pigs, sheep, and goats shipped to slaughter? Most states already have laws on the books for the humane shipment to slaughter for all livestock, many have specific regs for horses. I know New York state does and it's a major transport route to Toronto.

3- Slaughter is the topic, you only want to address one very small aspect of it, apparently. Which has been addressed, hasn't it?


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## barnbilder

I say whack them and stack them. Too many people around here that can barely feed their kids, renting what used to be a farm, and they fill it with cheap horses. Mountain side erodes from too many horses grazing and pawing, then you have a bunch of miserable creatures trying to eat mud and rocks. Way to go, people that "care" about horse welfare. 

Wildlife managers everywhere learned a long time ago, the best way to ensure the well being of a species, is to endow it with an economic value. Nobody will make any money guiding horse hunts. Might do a photo safari with wild horses but if you carried enough hay into remote areas to make them healthy enough to take a picture of, some years you would go bust. The meat market is about the only way to assign a base level of economic value to horses, and to get people to treat them as anything but collectible nick-nacks, or vermin, depending on personal views.


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## GK7

haypoint said:


> I'll assume that most people understand that horse slaughter in the US was stopped many years ago. A new wrinkle in this business has developed. The Japanese have a new delicacy. Raw, red meat from young Percheron Draft horses.
> Bought wherever they can, especially Horse Auctions, yeanlings, yearlings and a few 2 year olds, then shipped to feedlots to finish growing. At the right time, live, healthy Percheron horses are transported to Japan for their final fattening. This industry has pushed the value of these colts from $800 each to over $3,000 each.
> While people seeking to "rescue" horses from kill buyers, can do so for a few hundred dollars, the annual sale of 300 or more colts and fillies would overwhelm the pocketbooks and pastures of all but a few rescuers.
> This recent spike in prices has caused mare owners to breed in hopes of preventing the upcoming shortage in broke teams as well as supplying the new meat industry.
> For those with the room for rescuing horses, will you seek out arthritic, foundered, aged horses or will you save these healthy, young colts that will increase in value as they get older?
> Sort of a moral dilemma.


Where did you hear/read this?


----------



## wr

GK7 said:


> Where did you hear/read this?


If you're asking about the young horses being shipped to Japan, it's not new and US horses have been shipped by air to Canada and flown to Japan for several years.


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## GK7

The "delicacy" line about young draft horses.
Can you provide the link to the paper or website you got this from?


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## wr

GK7 said:


> The "delicacy" line about young draft horses.
> Can you provide the link to the paper or website you got this from?


That's not my department but I will say that I've always been aware that the Asians prefer them young and healthy and they're transported live. I don't think draft horses in particular are a delicacy. 

Most of my knowledge comes from a time when my youngest was working at the airport and he did mention that a lot of horses being shipped out were draft or draft cross but I assumed they're looking for a larger carcass.


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## haypoint

https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/...orse-slaughtering-trade-from-alberta-to-japan
I have observed a single kill horse buyer bid up to around $2800 each for yearling and 2 year old Pecherons, ignoring horses 3 and older. He bought several dozen at a single sale. All the horses go to Canadian feed lots.


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## oneraddad

The Washoe Paiute tribe rounded up hundreds of horses last week and plans on rounding hundreds more. I'm all for it and hope they rid the state of them.

https://mynews4.com/news/local/paiute-tribe-rounds-up-hundreds-of-horses-in-palomino-valley


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## farmrbrown

barnbilder said:


> Wildlife managers everywhere learned a long time ago, the best way to ensure the well being of a species, is to endow it with an economic value. Nobody will make any money guiding horse hunts.




A man took his wife deer hunting for the first time. After he explained
the basics to his wife, he told her the most important piece of information:

Whenever you shoot something, make sure to claim it right away or the
first person who gets to your kill can claim it as their own, so be
quick if we want to have deer meat in the refrigerator!

So they departed to their deer boxes and waited for some deer. Minutes
later he heard his wife's gun go off. The husband decided to make sure
she went to claim her kill instead of giving it away to someone. When he
got to his wife she was arguing with another man. When he finally got to
his wife the man was shouting waving his hands in the air:

Okay! Fine lady this is YOUR deer, but do you mind if I take my saddle
off your deer before you take it away?!?!


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## oneraddad

They could have tournaments like they do with coyotes 


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...sKj5PGYwzkTED6P7IX33KN4Cd0hEFy2JGVvbFz-&ifg=1


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## Grey Mare

I find it very disturbing that someone finds so much glee in rounding up and destroying an animal in this fashion. Shows the true colors of that person and their compassion..they have none. Anyone who has such glee to eradicate an animal is nothing, they have no soul. I surely wouldn't trust someone with this mind set. I have always said, you can tell the heart of a man by the compassion he shows for animals.

As for too many on the land, then I sure hope they are also keeping the cattle and sheep ranchers of that land as well, since it has been so badly damaged due to fires. If it can't sustain horses, it can't sustain them either.


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## Bearfootfarm

Grey Mare said:


> I find it very disturbing that someone finds so much glee in rounding up and destroying an animal in this fashion.


Where did it say they were being "destroyed".
The article I read said they were going to feedlots.


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## haypoint

This topic is the new twist, a facet of horse ownership. I don't lose a minutes sleep over old, lame, crazy horses making the trip to Quebec slaughterhouses.

Over the past 300 years, western ranchers have culled out "wild horses" that had some quality to be used on their ranches. They also abandoned their low quality horses. The population explosion that has existed for 50 years has been exacerbated by those that have no solutions, but expect taxpayers to continue to feed this growing herd. I have no problem with a sorting process that includes sending many of them to slaughter.

The new twist that I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around doesn't have anything to do with the above situations. This new twist is a business that supplies hundreds of young draft horses to Japan slaughter facilities. Draft Horse colts and fillies, from 6 months old to 2 years old are bought, hauled to Canadian feed lots. When mostly grown, they are packed into wooden crates and shipped to Japan. They are a delicacy. The buyers for this new service are paid well for these horses. Because there are not many young draft horses available, this increase in demand has effected values.

Historically, a weanling, with registration, from a quality stallion, could be purchased for between $500 and $1500. A buyer could feed, groom, trim hooves, train a colt and then sell for $3000 as a broke work horse.

Two years ago, abruptly, the feedlot buyers were bidding far beyond normal prices. Suddenly there were no colts sold under $2800, unless they were lame or sick. All of the colts that would become the work horses of the future were gone. All of the people that had operated breeding farms, maintained registration, carefully selected quality stallions, based of improving the breed, expected to see the offspring go on to some degree of notoriety. If they had any interest in supplying a meat market, they would have bought Angus.

Most draft horse owners spend long periods of time with their teams, logging, farming, carriage rides, funerals and exhibitions. Most understand that a meat market exists for some lame, crazy horses. But few are able to see their horses as a Japanese delicacy. 

Currently, a trainer cannot out bid the feedlot buyer, then care for and train a horse and receive a return on their investment or money and time. The future of the Draft horse is derailed to feed Japanese. This small gene pool is being deeply slashed by the meat market. 

The solution would be for the buyers of young trained draft horse teams to pay thousands more than was paid for the past couple decades. So far that hasn't happened. If it does, then the demand for young horses will heat up and the feed lot buyers will continue to out bit the trainers and even more draft horse bloodlines will be lost.

Yeah, I get it. Money talks and BS walks. People eat horses, bla, bla, bla.


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## kalmara

This is how the problem is handled here in New Zealand - https://kaimanawaheritagehorses.org/


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## Irish Pixie

These horses aren't wild/feral, they belong to the Washoe Paiute tribe and they can do what they want with them.


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## Irish Pixie

haypoint said:


> This topic is the new twist, a facet of horse ownership. I don't lose a minutes sleep over old, lame, crazy horses making the trip to Quebec slaughterhouses.
> 
> Over the past 300 years, western ranchers have culled out "wild horses" that had some quality to be used on their ranches. They also abandoned their low quality horses. The population explosion that has existed for 50 years has been exacerbated by those that have no solutions, but expect taxpayers to continue to feed this growing herd. I have no problem with a sorting process that includes sending many of them to slaughter.
> 
> The new twist that I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around doesn't have anything to do with the above situations. This new twist is a business that supplies hundreds of young draft horses to Japan slaughter facilities. Draft Horse colts and fillies, from 6 months old to 2 years old are bought, hauled to Canadian feed lots. When mostly grown, they are packed into wooden crates and shipped to Japan. They are a delicacy. The buyers for this new service are paid well for these horses. Because there are not many young draft horses available, this increase in demand has effected values.
> 
> Historically, a weanling, with registration, from a quality stallion, could be purchased for between $500 and $1500. A buyer could feed, groom, trim hooves, train a colt and then sell for $3000 as a broke work horse.
> 
> Two years ago, abruptly, the feedlot buyers were bidding far beyond normal prices. Suddenly there were no colts sold under $2800, unless they were lame or sick. All of the colts that would become the work horses of the future were gone. All of the people that had operated breeding farms, maintained registration, carefully selected quality stallions, based of improving the breed, expected to see the offspring go on to some degree of notoriety. If they had any interest in supplying a meat market, they would have bought Angus.
> 
> Most draft horse owners spend long periods of time with their teams, logging, farming, carriage rides, funerals and exhibitions. Most understand that a meat market exists for some lame, crazy horses. But few are able to see their horses as a Japanese delicacy.
> 
> Currently, a trainer cannot out bid the feedlot buyer, then care for and train a horse and receive a return on their investment or money and time. The future of the Draft horse is derailed to feed Japanese. This small gene pool is being deeply slashed by the meat market.
> 
> The solution would be for the buyers of young trained draft horse teams to pay thousands more than was paid for the past couple decades. So far that hasn't happened. If it does, then the demand for young horses will heat up and the feed lot buyers will continue to out bit the trainers and even more draft horse bloodlines will be lost.
> 
> Yeah, I get it. Money talks and BS walks. People eat horses, bla, bla, bla.


You've discussed this problem many times over the last several years. What are you doing about it?


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## farmrbrown

Irish Pixie said:


> These horses aren't wild/feral, they belong to the Washoe Paiute tribe and they can do what they want with them.


That's a good point.
The native Americans used horses as an all purpose vehicle that could also end up on the menu one night.
Nothing goes to waste.


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## haypoint

Irish Pixie said:


> These horses aren't wild/feral, they belong to the Washoe Paiute tribe and they can do what they want with them.


They are managed Federal Government. I'd love it if the tribe would take ownership of every last one of them and start footing the growing feed bill.


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## oneraddad

The tribes land is not fenced off, those horses wonder all over Nevada. 

Every animal that competes for feed with the horses has a season so they should also.


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## Irish Pixie

haypoint said:


> They are managed Federal Government. I'd love it if the tribe would take ownership of every last one of them and start footing the growing feed bill.


The horses belong to the tribe, read the article. They are taking ownership, and removing 400 horses. Read the article.


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## haypoint

kalmara said:


> This is how the problem is handled here in New Zealand - https://kaimanawaheritagehorses.org/


Yes. I understand that. In the US we have the ponies of Chinoteague Island out east. Also some protected island ponies in Texas. But these are horses that are mostly self managed. I'm trying to draw a distinction from wild horses and quality, registered, Draft Horse colts being bought for three time the earlier market price for the single purpose of being grown and then eaten in Japan.

Seems the island ponies and the Mustangs are protected. But a large segment of the draft horse bloodlines are being gobbled up. Literally.


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## haypoint

Bearfootfarm said:


> Where did it say they were being "destroyed".
> The article I read said they were going to feedlots.


I think a horse bred for centuries to pull heavy loads, plow, wagon, whatever, that is slaughtered in its prime is a form of destruction.


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## haypoint

Irish Pixie said:


> These horses aren't wild/feral, they belong to the Washoe Paiute tribe and they can do what they want with them.


Taxpayers are feeding 45,000 wild horses. The three or four hundred tribal horses is a drop in the bucket. But, once again, while I think we need to find a solution to limiting the population of these 45,000 Mustangs, that is not the topic of this discussion.


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## Irish Pixie

haypoint said:


> Taxpayers are feeding 45,000 wild horses. The three or four hundred tribal horses is a drop in the bucket. But, once again, while I think we need to find a solution to limiting the population of these 45,000 Mustangs, that is not the topic of this discussion.


The horses in the article under discussion are owned tribal horses, not feral. 

Why don't you start a new thread about what to do with the feral horses are the taxpayers are feeding? And detail what you suggest as a solution.


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## haypoint

Irish Pixie said:


> The horses in the article under discussion are owned tribal horses, not feral.
> 
> Why don't you start a new thread about what to do with the feral horses are the taxpayers are feeding? And detail what you suggest as a solution.


Because I don't care to discuss the millions of dollars the taxpayers spend to "save" these wild horses by feeding and caring for them while no one wants them. If you want to enlighten us, start your own thread.
My concern is the rapid loss of a specific type of horse that is being bought up, fattened up and sent to Japan for slaughter.
Domestic horses and perhaps more so with work horses, we hold a special bond or elevated connection from pigs or cattle.


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## Irish Pixie

haypoint said:


> Because I don't care to discuss the millions of dollars the taxpayers spend to "save" these wild horses by feeding and caring for them while no one wants them. If you want to enlighten us, start your own thread.
> My concern is the rapid loss of a specific type of horse that is being bought up, fattened up and sent to Japan for slaughter.
> Domestic horses and perhaps more so with work horses, we hold a special bond or elevated connection from pigs or cattle.


OK. You seemed to want to discuss them rather than the tribal owned horses in the article. After all, you brought them up. 

What are you doing about the Percheron's being sent to Japan? It's legal, no different than the Japanese spending a million dollars on a tuna. 

Have you set up a breeding problem to save the genetics that you say are being lost? That is the easiest solution I can see. 

I don't want horse slaughter banned, and I'm vocal about it with my state representatives. We tried it already, the neglect and starvation of horses skyrocketed.


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## farmrbrown

haypoint said:


> Because I don't care to discuss the millions of dollars the taxpayers spend to "save" these wild horses by feeding and caring for them while no one wants them. If you want to enlighten us, start your own thread.
> My concern is the rapid loss of a specific type of horse that is being bought up, fattened up and sent to Japan for slaughter.
> Domestic horses and perhaps more so with work horses, we hold a special bond or elevated connection from pigs or cattle.


Did you read this?



farmrbrown said:


> That's a good point.
> The native Americans used horses as an all purpose vehicle that could also end up on the menu one night.
> Nothing goes to waste.


Eating horses isn't my thing but to each his own. The Asians do the same with dogs and I'd never do that either.
It's really none of my business as long as they aren't stealing my dogs or horses to sell to eat.
*Exception would be torturing them, I won't tolerate that **** from anyone.

But it would seem that a much larger population financed with OUR money WOULD be a legitimate concern to discuss.

Then again, I probably got more important stuff to do today.


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## oneraddad

This is 15-20 miles from my home and where I've lived for 60 years, those horses are wild no matter what the article says. Just like the deer and Big horn sheep that migrate on and off tribal land.


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## oneraddad

Replace coyotes with wild horses


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## wr

oneraddad said:


> This is 15-20 miles from my home and where I've lived for 60 years, those horses are wild no matter what the article says. Just like the deer and Big horn sheep that migrate on and off tribal land.


Feral horses do migrate. I have family in various locations throughout the US and since the slaughter ban, bands of wild horses have increased significantly. I know of one area when game fence was erected to discourage people from dumping unwanted horses in with a band of mustangs, several rez herds literally doubled in size within months and my uncle discovered that the Colville had so my drop offs that you could buy a permit for $25 and take home as many horses as you could fit in a trailer. 

Obviously not many were feral because he bought his permit, walked out with an armload of halters, shook a pail of grain, haltered 6 walked them on the trailer and drove home. With a bit of time, 3 ended up being nice horses for the grandkids, one was a dandy rope horse and 6th made a decent pack horse.


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## oneraddad

Even the U.S. Forest Service is fed up with wild horses, they need to go

https://www.apnews.com/7580bd76ae784826a560e2fd78b5cca0


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## wr

oneraddad said:


> Even the U.S. Forest Service is fed up with wild horses, they need to go
> 
> https://www.apnews.com/7580bd76ae784826a560e2fd78b5cca0


Numbers need to be controlled no matter what species it is and I've been told that shortly after the US slaughter ban came into effect, it wasn't uncommon for people to drop unwanted horses with or near bands of mustangs, resulting in a population explosion. 

We have a similar problem in an area in Southern Alberta controlled by the military. They had a small band of feral horses that were left behind decades ago and the numbers were left unchecked to the point where there was insufficient grazing for deer, elk and antelope and both saw a steep decline. 

As usual, as soon as the roundup started, those handling it came under fire for animal abuse, etc, followed by the usual outrage over sending the horses to slaughter. The military was way ahead of the game, had made arrangements to have the horses registered as a unique breed and all but a very few were adopted. 

The horses are gathered annually and a certain number are culled or adopted each year and since the numbers are controlled, the deer, elk and antelope populations have seen a sharp increase.


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## barnbilder

So yeah. Did bucket list thing. Horse is like a cross between venison and beef but more tender than both. Lean. In stark contrast with every other animal, old is desirable. Thirty year old crippled rack of bones probably not all that good, but a two year old that is all legs and eye balls is going to be tougher than a ten year old that no longer feels the need to run everywhere, and instead lays around the pasture.

Let's just put it this way, bring me the best steer of any beef breed and I could take him to market and bring home all but $40 and a higher quality replacement for the freezer.

Very edible. A real shame that all of the moral taboos exist in this country. Overtones of racism lay at the root of most of the anti-horse-meat movement, as its is almost totally an English speaking phenomenon. It's a real shame and a waste of resources. Horses bought by people that can't afford them, starving in mud up to their bellies. You can buy a horse around here cheaper than you can buy a round bale, granted not a draft horse. Starving people in the world that need protein sources that are affordable.

I would think a percheron breeder would welcome the increased profitability. Culling is the best thing that can happen to any breed, and if the Japanese can pay big bucks for culls, then a breeder should be setting pretty. Maybe trainers should breed their own, or possibly take up another hobby. (Or maybe turn a buck or two on their less willing pupils) Last time I checked percheron training became pretty much obsolete as a real thing about the time you could buy a tractor.


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