# Ebay / PayPal Liability?



## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

My part-time job is selling things on ebay. It has kept the wolf from the door more days that not! 

I'm having issues with a buyer right now that I would like some advice on. She purchased something from me this past fall, then contacted me to say she hadn't received it. I sent her a copy of the shipping receipt from the post office, told her that she didn't purchase insurance or delivery confirmation and that once I handed her auction over to the post office I couldn't be responsible for it. Never heard back.

Well she won another one of my auctions at the beginning of Feb, purchased insurance this time. I shipped it out, but somehow when I was at the post office and told the clerk I wanted it insured the insurance wasn't put on the package. I was shipping 6 boxes that day, and I specifically remember requesting the insurance on this one - I remembered the buyer and figured she was smart enough to purchase insurance this time around.

Bottom line is, now the buyer is saying she didn't get this package either. Some coincidence, huh  I send her the copy of the receipt, and she pointed out that there was no insurance on it. 

Obviously I have proof that I sent the package out, and by the same measure she has proof that for whatever reason, the package wasn't insured. Now she's filed a PayPal dispute demanding all of her $ back. We're not talking chump change, the total amount is around $120.

I suspect, since I've been ebaying for YEARS and have never had a single package not get there - except by odd coincidence, both of the ones to this lady - that she's pulling something. 

Does anyone know what my liability is for this? I've tried finding info on both ebay and paypal's sites, but can't seem to locate any info.


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

She didn't get the other package but paid for it? You won that one. She bought something else and paid for insurance but you failed to follow through? She wins this one. BTW, the PO doesn't guarantee delivery even if you do insure it.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

bluemoonluck said:


> I remembered the buyer and figured she was smart enough to purchase insurance this time around.
> 
> Bottom line is, now the buyer is saying she didn't get this package either. Some coincidence, huh  I send her the copy of the receipt, and she pointed out that there was no insurance on it.


is she scamming you? Quite possibly. 

But something vital that all sellers need to know!-- :soap:

It is _your_ responsibility to make sure the package that the customer has paid for gets to them. 
I know, I know, sellers all like to make insurance optional and then encourage the customer to assume to cost (I know I do!), in hopes they can get the customer to think it's _their_ responsibility to get their purchase to their door. But in reality, that is not the case. 

Think if you order something from Penny's through the catalog. You pay the shipping cost, whatever it was stated as. It is then _their_ responsibility to make sure you get it!

This is non-negotiable, btw, and really has nothing to do with eBay. 
It's a basic business practice.:shrug:
___________________________________________________________

Is she scamming you? Maybe.
But _you_ are liable, no ifs, ands or buts about it, I'm afraid. 


I don't always insure, but I _do_ put delivery confirmation on absolutely _everything_ I ship so I can check to see if it was delivered, when and where.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I have a disclaimer on my auctions that specifically says once I hand it over to the post office I'm not responsible for it, and by bidding on my item they are agreeing to my terms of sale. Not that it matters a whole lot I guess...

I do understand good business practices and all that; I've got a lot of regular customers, and if one of them ever emails that they didn't get their package I'd refund their money no problems. I guess because stores/catalog companies do this full time they are able to budget for shrinkage due to theft or circumstances such as this, whereas I'm not able to do so because I'm not as big of an operation. 

I've added this user to my blocked bidder list on ebay, so she can't do it again... at least to me. I've also responded to her PayPal dispute, and sent an email to ebay asking them what my obligations are. If they say I have to pay her back, which it sounds like they will, then I pay her back. 

FWIW, I had a string a few years ago of people emailing saying that they hadn't gotten their packages and they wanted their money back- but they were emailing within a week of purchase, and they had chosen parcel post (which is SLOW!). I emailed out a scanned copy of the postal receipt, and magically all of the packages were delivered! I now as a standard practice email out a scanned copy of the postal receipt showing that the packages were mailed, and I haven't had any more trouble with people trying to say I didn't mail their winnings out on time


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Another question.... I'm on the east coast, she's on the west coast. I know every time I mail a package via parcel post to the west coast the Postal Clerks tell me that it can take 3 weeks for packages to get delivered. 

So... if I refund this lady's money, what happens if she gets the package in the mail the next day? Is she obligated to either pay me back or send the package back? Would it be acceptable for me to tell her I'm willing to refund her money but if the package shows back up she has to make ammends? 

If she's not lying, and I think she is, then I think it would only be fair for her to not get to keep the package and her money if they both get to her eventually. 

Any opinions??


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> I have a disclaimer on my auctions that specifically says once I hand it over to the post office I'm not responsible for it, and by bidding on my item they are agreeing to my terms of sale. Not that it matters a whole lot I guess...


I realize this. Like i said, a lot of sellers try to do the exact same thing. 
But it's irrelevant. 

It is still _your_ responsibility to make sure your customers get the item they purchased, in the condition it was advertised. 
PayPal and eBay will both side with them every time if the customer has proven payment, you _have_ to prove delivery. 

Insurance (and delivery confirmation) is there to protect the _seller_, not the buyer.

as to your second question--Is it fair to insist she send the item back, should it arrive? Absolutely! She doesn't get to have both her money refunded _and_ keep the item!
However, if she is indeed trying to cheat you, she won't be honest about it anyway... :shrug:


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

bluemoonluck said:


> I have a disclaimer on my auctions that specifically says once I hand it over to the post office I'm not responsible for it, and by bidding on my item they are agreeing to my terms of sale. Not that it matters a whole lot I guess...


She did accept your terms on the 1st sale and lost. She *purchased* insurance for the 2nd and you failed to purchase it from the PO. That makes you the insurer. Perhaps she has troubles with the PO (I have) and that's why she wanted insurance. Because you dropped the ball, she has no recourse at this point other than to seek damages from you; she can't file a claim with the PO because you failed to purchase what she paid you for. This has nothing to do with "good business policies" or "giving her something for nothing." Lessons learned for each of you.


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## foxtrapper (Dec 23, 2003)

bluemoonluck said:


> I have a disclaimer on my auctions that specifically says once I hand it over to the post office I'm not responsible for it, and by bidding on my item they are agreeing to my terms of sale.


Pointless. Look at your paypal terms. Those override and you will forfet the money. That's why many ebay sellers will not sell without insurance. It's not for you, not them. Heck, build it into your shipping charges, you can make it manditory, or simply not disclose that you're adding it.

In the case of this auction, she paid for insurance, you forgot it, and she's filed a claim. You're up the creek without a paddle, sol, and several other phrases. Trying to pretend you don't have an obligation here, both legally and morally, is repugnent. You'll deserve the neg you get, as well the strike against you by e-bay.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

For large ticket items, you absolutely MUST get delivery confirmation. That's the proof, and PayPal is absolutely mechanical about it. You either have it or you don't. The only exception I'm aware of is if the buyer mentioned receiving the item in eBay feedback (usually the buyer complains about the item, but at least it proves he got it). I'm afraid that you're going to eat that one.

That said, I don't use delivery confirmation on my software products. Why? Because I can mail my products by First Class mail small envelope class, which doesn't qualify for delivery confirmation. So do the math; I can burn a CD, label it, and place it in a cardboard mailer for about 50 cents, then mail it for another $60 cents. The minimum it would cost me to have delivery conformation is $1.50 just in postage. When you mail as many CDs as I do you save $100/week in postage by doing what I do. If someone says he didn't get it, I send another. If it happens again, he gets his $4.99 back. End of story.

But with large ticket items, you absolutely positively HAVE TO get delivery confirmation and keep those tickets straight! That's your job. Don't drop the ball.


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## morrowsmowers (Jun 14, 2004)

This is one of the reasons that I ship all of my eBay sales either by USPS Priority Mail with delivery confirmation or UPS. In either case you have tracking on the package and it gets to the buyer in a short amount of time. In some cases, I can ship via Priority Mail for cheaper rates than by Parcel Post and it will be there quicker and with tracking. Its worth the peace of mind for me.

Ken in Glassboro, NJ


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

morrowsmowers said:


> This is one of the reasons that I ship all of my eBay sales either by USPS Priority Mail with delivery confirmation or UPS. In either case you have tracking on the package and it gets to the buyer in a short amount of time. In some cases, I can ship via Priority Mail for cheaper rates than by Parcel Post and it will be there quicker and with tracking. Its worth the peace of mind for me.
> 
> Ken in Glassboro, NJ


Yep, me too. (Via USPS with d/c, that is)

It's only 18c to add delivery confirmation when printing First Class packages in PayPal. It's _free_ to add D/C when printing Priority in PP. On top of that, I don't have to keep track of those stupid tickets! lol It's all tracked in the customer's PP transaction info. (which is easily searched via last name, or linked from my Sold list in eBay)
Then, when you figure in the fact that it's actually _cheaper_ to print Priority packages (from 15-50c cheaper! _with_ free D/C), than it is to buy postage at the post office, it makes up the little extra cost anyway. 

Nope, there is no way I'd ever go back to doing it the harder, more expensive way. :shrug:


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

ErinP said:


> Yep, me too. (Via USPS with d/c, that is)
> 
> It's only 18c to add delivery confirmation when printing First Class packages in PayPal. It's _free_ to add D/C when printing Priority in PP. On top of that, I don't have to keep track of those stupid tickets! lol It's all tracked in the customer's PP transaction info. (which is easily searched via last name, or linked from my Sold list in eBay)
> Then, when you figure in the fact that it's actually _cheaper_ to print Priority packages (from 15-50c cheaper! _with_ free D/C), than it is to buy postage at the post office, it makes up the little extra cost anyway.
> ...




if i remember correctly, it is cheaper for the postage, but doesn't paypal get a cut via fees for transaction? i think that is why i started an account with USPS online and started using a credit card.


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## Sew-Classic (Jan 5, 2009)

A couple of years ago, I sent an auction item to FL from OH via USPS valued at about $300. The package was insured with delivery confirmation. 

USPS* LOST *the $300, 30 pound box. 

I waited the 30 days for it to show up and filed an insurance claim. USPS said that they would NOT pay the claim in hopes that the package would "show up". They gave NO time frame that I would be required to wait for the package to be found to receive my insurance claim. - kind of like lost package insurance purgatory. As the seller, I was still obligated to refund all of the buyers money, and I did so promptly. 

4 months later, The package was delivered to the buyer. The following day, I received a letter for USPS stating that the claim was denied as the package was found and delivered. 

So, now the buyer has a full refund and the $300 item. Cute huh?

My only saving grace is that the buyer was an honest sort and agreed to return the item. I had to pay the return shipping.

All in all, this transaction cost me about $60 in refunded shipping costs, ebay fees, and TONS of time and energy. Needless to say, I balk at shipping with USPS anymore.

The insurance is basically designed just to make some extra money for the shipping service. I don't even ask my buyers to pay for any insurance anymore, and I don't buy it. If the item gets lost, insured or not, I'm on the hook anyhow, so what's the point?

I do fully guaranteed the safe delivery of the items I sell through eBay or not. I always have and I always will. It's just how I do business and the type of customer service I have always wanted to provide.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

MELOC said:


> if i remember correctly, it is cheaper for the postage, but doesn't paypal get a cut via fees for transaction? i think that is why i started an account with USPS online and started using a credit card.


Just like any other credit card processor, PP does indeed take a cut of the payment via fees. I would be paying those fees regardless of whether or not I shipped through PP. 
(And I _know_ how much business I would lose if I no longer took PP! That's not even an option.)

However, unlike farming out to USPS.com for my shipping, keeping it all at PP makes my entire sales/customer service process _so_ much easier. _Everything_ is there in the customer's transaction page; what they purchased and how much, what they paid, what the shipping charge was, and finally, the delivery confirmation number.

Also, I routinely ship personal stuff through my PP shipping. For example, DH just sent a booklet via Priority to his boss in Florida. I printed the label in my PP account. Cost me nothing but the reduced postage...


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## DoubleBee (Nov 13, 2006)

I don't sell much on ebay but I did learn real quick to require a signature on delivery.


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## HorseFeatherz (Feb 16, 2008)

Oh this is painful! Paypal will find you, the shipper at fault, and refund the entire amount plus shipping to the buyer.

Here is what happened to me. Early Dec. 2007, Buyer purchased, paid and I shipped all within the same day. I do automatic delivery confirmation, but buyer opted out of insurance (also an insurance disclaimer in my auctions).

End of Dec. Buyer contacts me stating I &#8220;ruined&#8221; their Christmas, package never showed and I shipped it to the wrong address. Buyer demands their money back. Frantic I research the package.

Package was shipped to the address stated on the Paypal statement (buyer never asked for the package to be addresses differently) per Paypal&#8217;s seller protection policy. Post Office Delivery Confirmation states that PO could not deliver as addressed and package has been forwarded to new address. PO never shows that package is delivered.

I tell buyer what I have found. Buyer contacts Paypal and starts dispute. I explain all to Paypal and stand by my policies (policies are posted on eBay and part of my &#8220;auction contract&#8221. Long drawn out battle ensues&#8230;much muttering and stomping on my end&#8230;..DH &#8220;forced&#8221; to listen to the two different address story.

Paypal refunds the buyer all costs associated with the sale (or if I had a duplicate of the product I could resend it). I was out the original purchase price, eBay sale price, eBay fees, and shipping fees. Per Paypal it is the SELLERS responsibility to MAKE SURE the package arrives in the BUYERS hands! Not the responsibility of the shipping company.

The Paypal worker on my dispute told me even if the package had been insured ~ Paypal would have refunded the Buyer&#8217;s money still. It would be the Seller responsible for filing the insurance claim with the shipper.

I now insure everything I ship. It is the only "protection" I feel I have.


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## Kim_NC (Sep 5, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles.

We sell online from our own websites and on eBay. We have a strict policy: All shipments are insured, included in the shipping charge - post office priority mail or UPS. 

I've had potential buyers write and ask to send things regular postage, no insurance, parcel post etc - anything to save a buck. The problem with that is the seller is responsible and is the one stuck if something goes wrong. So, I politely stick to our policy and tell them why.

I also immediately block any buyers who have given me a hard time.... haggling price, slow to pay, etc.


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## tn_junk (Nov 28, 2006)

On any item over $25 that I sell on E-Bay I state clearly that insurance and delivery confirmation is required as a part of the purchase. If it is a fragile item, a vase, glass or piece of pottery, I require insurance regardless of the price. Even on a $.99 item.
Since many of my items are in the $25 to $50 range, I do a lot of business that gets insured and delivery confirms. I do all my domestic shipping thru PayPal so it's pretty easy to add the stuff. 

alan


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I told the buyer the day after I posted here that I would refund her $ if she agreed to return the package to me at my expense if/when it showed up. She refused! Which makes me pretty darn sure that I'm being scammed. Anyway, we're going through PayPal's dispute process, and I did make the PayPal dispute mediator aware of my history with the buyer and that she was offered a full refund but refused to agree to return the goods if they do make it to her. PayPal will notify me when a decision is made.


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## poultryprincess (Aug 9, 2002)

It is my understanding that ALL items must have a Tracking # to win the Paypal Dispute. Paypal will side with the Buyer, if you cannot show the item had a tracking # which can be followed during it's journey.

It does Not matter if you put a disclaimer, because it is against Paypal shipping policy. Just as you are to ship Only to a Confirmed address.

My items are about $10 & to get a Tracking # in Canada, you must ship "Expedite" which costs $14. No One will pay $14 to ship a $10 item. We have a Small parcel or a small Packet, which is a Stamped reciept of shipment. The form has the name & address of the buyer, with the Postal date of shipping. "Every" time I have tried to use this reciept to prove I have shipped the item, Paypal has refused it because there is No tracking #.

Now it is quite possible her 1st item arrived After her letter to you. She may have figured out it was better to insure & have a tracking # in the future. 

To be the Devil's advocate - IF your buyer Really didn't get her last order, she may have felt scammed. Asking for Insurance for her 2cd order was her assurance she wouldn't be scammed again. She may feel that perhaps her Last parcel had been returned to You & you did not refund her $. She Could have put in a dispute on the First order, & trust me, she would have Won.....because there was no tracking # 
It is an expensive lesson for sure, $120 item is a Big ticket item....But she is under No obligation ( other than perhaps a Moral one ) to send you the item if it arrives later. 
* Could you Turn on the Charm, & maybe ask if she would be nice enough to wait an additional wk incase it shows up? Either that or play the "Dispute" game. Reply to the dispute on the Last day you are allowed. When she responds, wait again til the last day. Cross your fingers that her parcel shows up before Paypal delivers their verdict.
Too bad it was such an expensive item that was lost, Good luck


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## mrswright (Jan 10, 2009)

Either way if they purchase insurance or not you are responsible and will lose the case with paypal, that is what I was told. I usually just put the insurance on it myself. Sad but to many scammers out there.


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