# Scary!



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

My wife was going to do some Wiring in a Room we are working on.At first she didn't like where they had fixed up one Plug In to where they could plug in 8 things at a Time and they had plugged in a Space Heater and got it real Hot   Well she pulls the Plug in out  They had cut Insulation on one Wire and it had got Hot.Got to looking at Insulation,it had got smoky from getting Hot.

I'll be glad when she goes through this whole House.Just glad the Lord is watching out for us.

big rockpile


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

You're very lucky indeed!! When we did some remodeling in our old house, I found a few places where the wiring had completely melted the sheath and the surrounding insulation had actually smouldered! Very scary indeed! That's why I always fork over the extra money to buy the next higher gauge wiring than is required by code for that circuit when I'm doing new installation or adding on to an existing run.

15 amp (lights) circuits need 14ga wire, but I use 12ga. 20 amp (outlets) circuits need 12ga wire, but I use 10ga. And 50 amp (stoves, heavy machinery) need 10ga wire, but I use 8ga. The bigger wire means less resistance and less chance of the wire overheating.

Plus, if I'm planning new, I always give dedicated circuits for heavy use or scary areas so their aren't a ton of plugs on a single circuit. The bathroom, the kitchen, the home office, and the entertainment center all have their own 20 amp, multi-plug outlets on a dedicated circuit, and use GFCI anywhere that water might be an issue. And by multi-plug, I don't mean a power strip, I mean actually wiring multiple regular duplex plugs in a large gang box with a multiple opening face plate.


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## DanielY (Aug 25, 2011)

The over gauge thing is at two edged sword. if you have 12 gauge wire on a 15 amp breaker you are going to be fine. but it also allows you to overload a circuit and not see any indication of it. A 15 amp breaker will protect a 14 gauge circuit. simple as that.

In older houses it is a real concern. Many of them ar wired with 12 gauge wire on 20 amp fuses. fuses are easy to change. These houses where wired to handle a lamp in each room, a television and a radio. the only room in the house that needed any serious electrical service was the kitchen. Now these same circuits are being asked to power a televise, multiple lights, computer, stereo and game systems in every room of the house. And how do yo manage to get all this power to the room? Rewire? nah just switch that fuse to a 30 amp, everything works just fine. Then lights start to flicker (lousy power company) You smell something funny once in a while (Nasties creeping round in these old walls) sooner or later your wiring problems will tend to solve themselves. not much need for electricity in that pile of ash that is left.


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## CityGuy (Aug 22, 2011)

DanielY said:


> if you have 12 gauge wire on a 15 amp breaker you are going to be fine. but it also allows you to overload a circuit and not see any indication of it. A 15 amp breaker will protect a 14 gauge circuit. simple as that.


I don't understand, if you have a 12 gauge wire on a 15 amp breaker, won't the breaker still trip at around 15 amps load? 

Why would a larger wire downstream change this? 

Shouldn't the 12 gauge wire at the point the breaker trips be well below it's rated temperature?


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

A 15a breaker will trip if the load on the circuit is more than 15a regardless of the wiring size.

One-upping your wire size only means that there is less likelihood of the actual wire overheating under a long load that is just barely beneath the breaker trip point. One-upping is not going to hide an overloaded circuit, it just reduces the chances that you'll have an electrical fire in the wall.

(ETA: if you plug a lot of things into a single outlet, the wiring behind that socket can/will overheat -- this is an overloaded OUTLET, even if the circuit isn't overloaded) 

You can sure melt a wire long before you trip a breaker or fuse... you see this a lot in older homes or bad DIY jobs where someone has wired 14g onto a 20a circuit breaker.

Circuit breaker < wire gauge = much goodness
Circuit breaker = wire gauge = minimum safety requirements
Circuit breaker > wire gauge = much badness


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## old school (Aug 26, 2012)

Thank GOD that you are smart enough to really inspect simple thing like that most people would not check anything if it is in working order. Thanks for sharing reading life experiences like this might open others eyes to look over deadly problems like yours.


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## Rocky Fields (Jan 24, 2007)

BR doesn't use fuses, he uses pennies;-)


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## 3ravens (Mar 16, 2006)

Rocky Fields said:


> BR doesn't use fuses, he uses pennies;-)


Nah, copper's worth too much nowadays. Just stuff a wad of aluminum foil in there! :smack


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

PlicketyCat said:


> That's why I always fork over the extra money to buy the next higher gauge wiring than is required by code for that circuit when I'm doing new installation or adding on to an existing run.
> 
> Generally, oversizing wire for any other reason that voltage drop is nothing but a vast waste of money. Other issues are created like using wire that is too large for devices, such as using #10 solid wire on builder grade switches and outlets, or attempting to connect large groups of #10 wires with wire nuts. There is no additional safety provided using oversized wire, and it does nothing to reduce resistance or overheating in a properly designed and installed circuit.
> 
> ...


So to review, you recommend wasting massive amounts of cash on needlessly oversized wire for light receptacle and lighting loads, but advice to use an undersized cable to feed an electric stove????


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

DanielY said:


> The over gauge thing is at two edged sword. if you have 12 gauge wire on a 15 amp breaker you are going to be fine. but it also allows you to overload a circuit and not see any indication of it. A 15 amp breaker will protect a 14 gauge circuit. simple as that..


Sorry, but this is simply 100% incorrect. Wire size has nothing to do with the performance of the overcurrent device (fuse or breaker) A 15 amp breaker will not allow a circuit to draw in excess of 15 amps, it doesn't matter if the installation was done with #12 Romex or 16 guage lamp cord, 15 amps is what it is.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

It's important to remember that the vast majority of wiring issues in older homes are not the result of wire size, or overcurrent protection (typically fuses) The problems tend to be a simple shortage of circuits, for example having three bedrooms, a bath and hallway on one 15 amp circuit. Another example is deteriorating wiring. First generation romex is cloth covered with natural rubber coating on the individual wires, the rubber is now hard, brittle and flaking off at receptacles and splices. Don't forget decades of DIY "electricians" doing all kinds of stupid stuff, splices without juction boxes, adding to overloaded circuits, using everything from lamp cord, to old scrap wire to repair and extend circuits, etc. Or homeowners installing larger fuses, or jumping them out with pennies. 

Generally, a older installation that is treated gently, no overloaded, and properly protected with the right fuses, tend to be fairly safe, not 100% worry free safe, but not an emergency either. Once you start adding space heaters, bigger fuses, a toast oven in the kitchen, and try to run the air compressor by running it off a bedroom receptacle while your remodeling, you tend to find the limits of the old system. Wasting tons of cash on oversized wiring, or taking a lot of the advice offered by internet electricians, really doesn't help.


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## lazyBum (Feb 27, 2012)

I liked how the previous owners of my house covered a live outlet with wood paneling. Luckily I found it while cutting it in half with the saw while trying to put an outlet there. And how they wired the kitchen from the outside of the house.


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## jdrobison (May 28, 2012)

a 50 amp circuit should be #6 minimum # 8 is 40 amp


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

wharton said:


> So to review, you recommend wasting massive amounts of cash on needlessly oversized wire for light receptacle and lighting loads, but advice to use an undersized cable to feed an electric stove????


Um, 8 gauge wire is larger than 10 gauge wire.

Oh, I see. 50 amps requires 6 gauge.

People should be more specific when pointing out errors so those who do not know all these conversions and numbers know what you really mean.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> Um, 8 gauge wire is larger than 10 gauge wire.
> 
> Oh, I see. 50 amps requires 6 gauge.
> 
> People should be more specific when pointing out errors so those who do not know all these conversions and numbers know what you really mean.


IMHO, the point isn't about specific errors, it is about understanding the danger of following "advice" given by those that give it freely, but haven't got a clue as to what they are talking about. This specific thread has somebody advising to use ridiculously oversized wire on receptacle circuits, and the wrong size on something as critical as an electric range cable. 

For anybody interested in building, wiring, or plumbing a home safely, and well, I strongly recommend the "Code Check" series of books. These are available at Amazon, and run about $14 each. There is nothing out there that is clearer, or easier to use, when it comes to covering the basics of proper residential construction. Be sure to get the latest versions of each.


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## themamahen (Jun 26, 2005)

well Ill stick to the topic and not the arguement.

Rockpile~ that is some scary STUFF! I'm glad you and your wife found it and are safe. your house pictures you have posted look great


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

lazyBum said:


> I liked how the previous owners of my house covered a live outlet with wood paneling. Luckily I found it while cutting it in half with the saw while trying to put an outlet there. And how they wired the kitchen from the outside of the house.


 Once rewired a place where the entire house was paneled in 1/2" Homesote, that nasty black, asphalt soaked, fuzzy stuff. Then that was paneled over with real thin wood paneling. The house was wired with aluminum Romex. The wiring would get loose on the screw terminals at the outlets, heat up and start the homesote on fire. The fire would (just guessing here?) run out of oxygen and go out. As as the building was stripped down to the studs we found half a dozen round holes burned in the homesote, but hidden by the wood paneling. I have no idea why the place didn't burn to the ground. Same house had lamp cord run in the attic instead of romex, and an aluminum range cable feed that was made of three scraps of cable spliced together without wirenuts, or junction boxes.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

wharton said:


> IMHO, the point isn't about specific errors, it is about understanding the danger of following "advice" given by those that give it freely, but haven't got a clue as to what they are talking about. This specific thread has somebody advising to use ridiculously oversized wire on receptacle circuits,


The recommendation of using the next larger wire size is pretty much universal. NEC gives the minimum allowed. Even the 41st edition of _Wiring Simplified_ recommends using the next larger AWG, pages 8 to 9.


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