# Perhaps the saddest set of hindquarters I've yet seen...



## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyipFW4HUso&feature=plcp]Cookie - YouTube[/ame]


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## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

She's got serious problems with those back legs, they bow out as she bears weight. All around terrible.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

It says she's Kentucky Mountain and the hindquarters/hind leg conformation doesn't really look much like I'm used to seeing in the horses I've seen from this breed.

However, I will say when I first moved to KY and started watching all the Tennessee Walkers and TWH crosses going through the sale rings (and being ridden up and down the road before the sale) ... I was absolutely appalled! The hindquarters were narrow and not well muscled ... and the hocks went every which direction when the horse was moving. The hind leg would move up and under, set down on the ground and from the rear the hock would actually *roll* outwards on many of these horses. I could not believe these horses could/would stay sound and that's the way they were actually supposed to look.

It's apparently something that is, in fact, pretty common in the TWH breed and not considered much of an issue at all.


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## AugustRED (Apr 18, 2010)

Looks like only the left hind bows out under weight, not that that really makes things much/any better. Most gaited horses look 'strange' to me though so can't really give an opinion as far as good/bad traits of the horse...


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Many people think gaited horses move strangely, but in this particular horse's case, the white legs make his movement "stand out" more. Horse could use some muscling up, looks a little light in the hind to me.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

SFM in KY said:


> II could not believe these horses could/would stay sound and that's the way they were actually supposed to look.
> 
> It's apparently something that is, in fact, pretty common in the TWH breed and not considered much of an issue at all.


I've been looking at a lot of gaited horses for a while now. There may be some people in the TWH show industry who think their horses are supposed to look like that, but I can't imagine someone looking for a TWH for endurance, for example, who would want a horse that has a conformation like that. Gaited horses are increasingly being used in endurance, and of course they are supposed to be good all-day pleasure trail horses, but I wouldn't want to ride something like that out on the trail. I'd be afraid we'd never get home!

This one stood out to me because it was so odd. And this place advertising her was said to have a good reputation, but this makes me wonder. If, however, this is considered in the range of "normal", maybe they do think she's just fine like that. :shocked:


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Q. What is a horse owners fave Sir Mix-a-lot song?

A. o/~ _I like big butts and I can not lie, you othah bruthahs can't deny_...o/~

I would have posted a link to that funny song, but it is a little too R rated. 

My wife is the cow girl, I'm terrible at grading confirmation at horse shows, and I know even less about Walkers than I do QH, but I know what I like, well muscled, big rumps. That horse looks out of balance to me.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

KY Mountain horses are supposed to step rack/rack/amble but are not known to perform a "walking" gait other than the basic walk that all horses do. This particular horse looked "steppy" behind. 

Most walking horse people I know would not want that particular conformation in the ring, but then again, all of them I know use their walking horses as both show and trail horses.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

CesumPec said:


> My wife is the cow girl, I'm terrible at grading confirmation at horse shows, and I know even less about Walkers than I do QH, but I know what I like, well muscled, big rumps. That horse looks out of balance to me.


I grew up with QH types myself, so the heavier muscled horses seemed normal to me ... went from there to warmbloods ... not as heavy, muscled a little more like heavy-duty Thoroughbreds, but still looking at good, solid joints.

This is absolutely not what you generally see with the TWH that I see locally. Some better than others, certainly, but I have to say I find it rare to find a TWH that isn't what I would term "loose in the hocks". The first few I saw after I moved here to KY actually looked crippled to me.

I think maybe there are people/breeders in the TWH community that are breeding away from this and I have to admit that is something I would not ever want in a horse for myself.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Too much time and conversation on bad confirmation. It doesn't just reside with gaited horses but other horses too. Heaven knows I've seen enough QUarter horses with dime size feet under mountainous bodies. Low heels and bad feet on Thoroughbreds. And the brain-ectomies bred in some Arabs. Any horse that is bred to show will be subject to fads that distort the confirmation or temperament.
Gaited horses should be bred for all the same things a hard gaited horse is bred for but it also has the additional burden on needing the gait. With a much smaller gene pool, it is easy to lose that attribute. So I tend to cut gaited horses a little slack, especially since their gait tends to spread out the stress on the legs a little more.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

As you say, every breed has it's faults. Drafts being bred "light" and not being able to pull any longer, being bred to "step high" for a flashier hitch, etc. All breeds suffer at the hands of those that would "remake" them into the current fashion at the time and somehow, yet old genes manage to shine through and every once in a while the "old style" comes back into fashion.

I remember the old bulldog QH's with huge feet and big jug heads..and every once in a while I still see one like that, not too often, but occasionally. Horses are bred to do whatever the work is at the moment and there is not enough "work" to keep them bred to plow, log, etc. Even the Friesians are becoming more "refined" and the eventually I bet they will not look the same in another 50 years of breeding.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

sidepasser said:


> Even the Friesians are becoming more "refined" and the eventually I bet they will not look the same in another 50 years of breeding.


This is something that bothers me about the trend in breeding Icelandics (in the US, I don't know about Iceland). Some are breeding for a more "refined" look and they are losing bone and substance. They are breeding pretty horses, and are still breeding well-conformed horses but they are just lighter/smaller boned, and that to me is not what an Icelandic should be.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

sidepasser said:


> KY Mountain horses are supposed to step rack/rack/amble but are not known to perform a "walking" gait other than the basic walk that all horses do. This particular horse looked "steppy" behind.


She was doing a step pace. They talked her up as having a good rack, and even a canter, but didn't show it.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

sidepasser said:


> Many people think gaited horses move strangely, but in this particular horse's case, the white legs make his movement "stand out" more. Horse could use some muscling up, looks a little light in the hind to me.


Here's the web page with her details: 
GG Flatshod Farms - Cookie

They have a photo of her standing roughly squared up. You can really see the weird hind end in that photo.

I told someone else it looks like she was put together from leftover horse parts and got someone else's hindquarters. Poor thing.

And no, I would not pay anywhere close to what they are asking for her. She may be a sweet sweet horse, and a good pasture pet, but I'd feel bad actually riding her, even if she's "sound."


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

Also, I wonder, do most people think that gaited horses move that way because of some conformational difference? That the conformation leads to the gait? Because that's not the case. The ability to "gait" comes from a single gene mutation that affects how the limb movements are coordinated (One gait-keeper gene allows horses to move in unusual ways : Not Exactly Rocket Science). A gaited horse should be judged conformationally just like any other horse. Good conformation is good conformation, no matter what kind of horse it is. 

IMHO of course. 

Of course we humans can't resist trying to modify things to make horses appear to gait the way we think they should or to make them look "better" doing it.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

birchtreefarm said:


> They have a photo of her standing roughly squared up. You can really see the weird hind end in that photo.


That really does show *bad* things that didn't show up in the other link. Weird, in fact. Really shallow stifle/hock angulation. Not good.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

birchtreefarm said:


> The ability to "gait" comes from a single gene mutation that affects how the limb movements are coordinated (One gait-keeper gene allows horses to move in unusual ways : Not Exactly Rocket Science). A gaited horse should be judged conformationally just like any other horse. Good conformation is good conformation, no matter what kind of horse it is.
> 
> .


Actually I think that the gene allows the ability to gait but that there is more involved. I can usually tell a gaited horse by looking at them from the side without knowing they can gait. I think that either there are other genes involved or this "gaiting" gene effects confirmation too.


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## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

No, that horse isn't just doing some funky gait "thing." There is something wrong with her. I have never seen a gaited horse move like that. Frankly, I don't think I would feel very safe riding her. I keep waiting on her leg to go out under her while that lady is on her.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

where I want to said:


> Actually I think that the gene allows the ability to gait but that there is more involved. I can usually tell a gaited horse by looking at them from the side without knowing they can gait. I think that either there are other genes involved or this "gaiting" gene effects confirmation too.


Gaited horses can have quite a range of conformation. The gene only affects whether they can gait or not, but humans have taken that ability and bred different breeds which do different types of gaits from pace to foxtrot to rack to Indian shuffle, etc. In that breeding selection you get the different conformational appearances.

I'm betting that if you can pick a gaited horse just by looking at it, it's more that you are unconsciously recognizing breed characteristics rather than a specific conformational point that means the horse can gait.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

birchtreefarm said:


> This is something that bothers me about the trend in breeding Icelandics (in the US, I don't know about Iceland). Some are breeding for a more "refined" look and they are losing bone and substance. They are breeding pretty horses, and are still breeding well-conformed horses but they are just lighter/smaller boned, and that to me is not what an Icelandic should be.


Been saying this too for the last 10 years. 
And yes, some breeders in Iceland are starting to breed them super, super refined too.
There are some breeders, their Icelandic's legs are every bit as thin as a TB...
Super narrow body.
And still running 13.3 to 14 hands... they are going to start breaking down young.
The PP breed has just about been ruined by breeders wanting to super refine their horses. ....

If I wanted a narrow childs pony,, here in the US we have tons of breeds to choose from and for far, far less money.

Me.. I want the traditional Icelandic, good thick bone in the legs.. and nice round body to take up your leg... just a good stout, viking horse that was bred to handle adults weight with no problems. 

A good gaited horse, should have good conformation and you shouldn't notice anything different from them compared to a good trotting breed. You shouldn't see sloppy joint movement.

Sadly, there are a number of breeders out there... that take an already good, healthy, strong breed and ruin them, because they want to win at shows and or make them into something nature didn't meant them to be. Like super refined. If we were meant to ride Deer... we would be riding Deer. 
Is beyond crazy.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

She looks like the horse version of a bad German Shepherd. :\


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## lathermaker (May 7, 2010)

I think she looks like she's sickle hocked. baaaadddddd conformation on that mare!


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

The horse isn't just sickle-hocked (which in itself isn't the worst fault in a horse), what makes her conformation so bad is that her tibia (hock to stifle) is about 4" too long. That's why her hind leg is soooo far back and why she walks so odd.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

I showed the video to my friend who is a great lameness vet and she said her vote is a chronic meniscal tear on the left.

Here's part of my conversation with her after I asked her if the injury could be a result of her conformation



> Maybe. Hard to say.usually they are traumatic. Never seen one I felt was really attributable to conformation. I think her hind legs look longer because she is stretching them out behind to get weight off the lh


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

That extra length is what reminds me of a German Shepherd.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

A tear is a bad thing...been there done that, cost me over 5,000 and we did get the horse sound but it took 9 months and that was because it was caught immediately the day it happened. The longer it goes, the harder it becomes to get the horse sound and some never are sound. 

My tear was not a meniscus tear, but it was really, really bad and expensive. I spent over a thousand in ultrasounds alone..one every Saturday to plot the recovery..

Finally gave the mare away after she was sound as no one to this date has ever kept her sound. she has the best owner ever right now - he's a vet!


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

I ride a gaited horse and regularly ride with other people on their gaited horses. Never seen one of them do what this horse did. Not just the way she moved but the angle of the back legs just doesn't look right. Not to mention whatever was going on with that left rear leg.

Poor girl.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

I've seen worse. We bought this thing that I have no idea how he stayed sound and not only that but jumped our fence! Bow legged, sickle hocked, toed in, no muscle.... he looked like someone put his legs on wrong. Got him dirt cheap at an auction and used him for the neighbor kid to ride with us for 3 years before selling him. Some how he never did go lame while my well built show gelding cracked a hock during that time.


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