# Locating a source for black powder shotgun shells



## FarmboyBill

Ive found that NOBODY in Tulsa knows of anybody who has for sale black powder shotgun shells. IF they are available, can they be shipped somehow to me?


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## Bearfootfarm

FarmboyBill said:


> IF they are available, can they be shipped somehow to me?


Black powder can only be shipped as a "haz-mat" explosive.

There's no logical reason to load black powder in modern shells.
I doubt you will find anyone selling them commercially at any price you'd be willing to pay.

Why do you think you want them?


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## shawnlee

Probably have to roll your own.....people got scared of black powder stuff a few years back...….even get funny just ordering a pound of it.


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## IndyDave

If you can load your own...


https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloadi...s/reloadable-brass-cases/brass-shotgun-shells


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## damoc

shawnlee said:


> Probably have to roll your own.....people got scared of black powder stuff a few years back...….even get funny just ordering a pound of it.


I think you find this correct.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I did some BP 12 gauge loads for low pressure,low recoil but if you want to use in old antique shotguns you may not want the steel shot


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## Bearfootfarm

shawnlee said:


> .people got scared of black powder stuff a few years back...….even get funny just ordering a pound of it.


That's because the Govt changed the regulations regarding shipping and storage, so most dealers just stopped handling it rather than spend to money to meet the requirements.

There are lots of powders available now that are safer and cleaner.


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## shawnlee

I have shot most of it, when I can no longer get real BP, will just clean the guns and retire them. Nothing like the smell/smoke and sound of real BP. Lots of people also making their own, so I might do that. I have enough to last for now.


I have never used home made,or seen it used in RL, so I have no idea if it is up to the task. Its still legal to make it for now.


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## damoc

Its up too the task (home made) but I THINK while legal to make and use its not legal to sell or transport.

THR The High Road forum has a good black powder shooter section that may be of help ordering real BP or ammo


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## FarmboyBill

I have an OLD T. Banner or Barker 12ga 36in barrel shotgun. I shoot quail loads in it, but it is somewhat loose. I DID find a store that sold hulls loaded with black powder, blanks.


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## Bearfootfarm

FarmboyBill said:


> I shoot quail loads in it, but *it is somewhat loose*.


You should probably stop shooting it at all.
Using black powder won't be better.
Find a better gun instead of taking a chance of blowing up an old one.


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## damoc

FarmboyBill said:


> I have an OLD T. Banner or Barker 12ga 36in barrel shotgun. I shoot quail loads in it, but it is somewhat loose. I DID find a store that sold hulls loaded with black powder, blanks.


quail loads can still have some very high pressure maybe too much for what you are shooting.If you dont want to reload BP shells
you could download low brass,target,quail loads by removing half the shot half the powder and filling in with cream of wheat.

smokeless of the shelf loads are not the answer to a old firearm that you want to keep in service.There was some reduced recoil 12 gauge loads available of the shelf through midway or cabellas might be worth a look.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

black powder is capable of the same pressure as some smokeless loads.
it is also corrosive and will require a full cleaning after every time you use the gun.

you can buy a used shotgun that will take modern smokeless loads available at 5-6 dollars a box for not very much money I picked one up in good shape for 75 dollars. a few boxes of specialty shells is likely to get you to 75 dollars in a hurry , as will the hazmat charge for shipping.

spend some more and have a very versatile gun that you can do everything with , I paid 225 for a used Mossberg 500 combo 12 ga with slug and vent rib bird barrel with accu-choke system. I have taken rabbit and pheasant and plenty of clay targets with it , just a very good all around shotgun.

good tools cost money but they can save you wasted money and frustration if you buy them first.


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## shawnlee

Also some old shotgun barrel designs are unsafe such as wire barrel shotguns...…...they should never be shot again due to the age and rust infiltration that is only detectable thru x-rays....they look fine until they explode,which they frequently do now.


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## Bearfootfarm

You should probably just stop shooting it before it blows up in your face.
It's over 100 years old and it's time to retire it.

If you need a shotgun buy one more modern and much safer.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

given your description and concern , hang it on the wall or sell it to someone who wants to hang it on a wall take the money and buy a used 870 or 500 and shoot off the shelf loads with no concern for the rest of your days.

seen plenty of both going for about 200-250 used most of them will also take 3 inch shells not that you really need 3inch for much but they are solidly strong actions with lots of available parts should you ever break something.


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## blanket

Bill, what are you going to do with blanks? As others have said you might want get a modern shotgun but we all know you won't. Same as your question about paper cartridges for a cap and ball revolver. We all know you have a tight budget but another question is what the heck do you need to shoot?


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## FarmboyBill

Currently I havnt got any money to be spending on a shotgun, OR any gun for that matter. Whats your thoughts about using bp blanks and pouring in the shot from the shells I have now?


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## Bearfootfarm

FarmboyBill said:


> Whats your thoughts about using bp blanks and pouring in the shot from the shells I have now?


You'll shoot your eye out. (along with blowing up your gun)

You have no business shooting a 100 year old shotgun that is not in good working condition.

How many times does it need to be repeated?


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## blanket

save it for the 4th of july when the hospitals are set for causalities


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

farmboybill do you already have a store of black powder ?


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## FarmboyBill

Yes, for my C&B pistols


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## FarmboyBill

I don't intend to use it per se. I just want it loaded with appropriate loads so that IF I do have to use it, I can try to use it gently. Its too heavy anymore to do anything with outdoors. It will just be a go to gun in the house if ever needed.


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## Bearfootfarm

FarmboyBill said:


> I don't intend to use it per se. I just want it loaded with appropriate loads so that IF I do have to use it, *I can try to use it gently*.


Forget about using that shotgun.

Buy yourself a cheap single barrel if you think you "need" something but don't want to spend much money.

You will probably never need it, but if you do at least it won't be likely to blow up in your face and it will probably work.

You can't use a shotgun "gently". 
It has to contain 10's of thousands of pounds of pressure.

You shouldn't let black powder shells sit around loaded "in case you need it" because it will absorb moisture from the air and may not fire at all.

You don't have the needed equipment nor the knowledge to load your own shells safely, and using modern shells in that old gun is a bad idea.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

IF you need a gun you NEED it to be perfectly functioning.

when you NEED a gun there is no such thing as gentle.

what your saying is about the equivalent to I have this old fire truck encase I have a fire , but I don't start it every week and run it , I don't cycle through the valves every week , I don't keep water in the tank because I am worried the tank will corrode. in that case you don't have a fire truck you have a truck sitting in your front yard with weeds growing up around it and flat tires. 


if you feel need for a gun , do what it takes to get yourself a reliable functioning tool they are not that expensive to get into a reliable gun.


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## alleyyooper

Lots of Cowboy action shooters load their own BP shot shell loads and it sure isn't all that hard.

I load a few with BP to use every so ofter on the clays course, problem is i rarely get to to see their reaction. Once in a while I have a friend shoot them off so I see the reaction.

This is a gentile load and if you don't have a reloading press to push the over powder wad in and the shot card there Youtube vid's showing how to use dowel rod. 

12 gauge BP recipe.

12 gauge hull, I prefer the Remington STS.
Any shotgun primer, I usually use Winchester.
4.3CC *(dipper size)* of whatever brand FFg. (or FFFg if that is all you have)
Circle Fly 1/8" thick Over Powder Card
Circle Fly 1/2" fiber Cushion Wad
1 1/8 ounces of shot (I like #8 myself but you can use pretty much what ever you want)
Circle Fly over shot card.


 Al


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

loading black powder shells is not that hard , he was asking about dumping out black powder blanks first and then he is asking about using them in what sounds like a worn out gun that even he questions the safety of and for self defense and not for fun.

the most important thing in loading any black powder is NO air gap , the black must be a compressed load you don't need heavy compression but you need some compresion, if that means adding more card to take up empty space then that is what needs to be done.

a Lee loader in 12ga I got mine for 20 dollars would be the ideal tool and would allow you to reuse others spent hulls rather than buying shells and emptying them of their modern powder to replace it with black powder.

when muzzle loading shotguns you typically use the same dipper for shot and powder I would reduce that if this gun is as fragile as you say but make sure always a compressed load with anything black powder be it muzzle loading or cartridge.

also consider that if it is too fragile to use light target or dove loads in , maybe it is to fragile to shoot at all.


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## Bearfootfarm

alleyyooper said:


> Lots of Cowboy action shooters load their own BP shot shell loads and it sure isn't all that hard.


This isn't a "Cowboy action shooter".

This is FarmboyBill, with a 100 year old gun that's already "a little loose".

He's not going to spend the money to buy what is needed to do it safely, so the best thing is to simply stop using the old gun and get one that is safe for use with modern shells he can buy.


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## M5farm

I have no words for this ................................................................................................


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## damoc

I posted a vid on how you can download of the shelf loads with BP it does reduce pressure and recoil.
I originally made them so I could use a home made slam fire waterpipe shotgun without a lot of fear of it blowing up in my face
I suspect with lead shot they would also be good for antique's that someone wants to keep shooting.
As others have said BP can still produce the same pressures as smokeless but it is much less energy dense and if you follow the rule of no air gap/light compression its easy to make a low power load out of it much easier than with smokeless.

BTW This waterpipe shotgun would be a pretty decent home defense weapon for someone on a budget or in a area where it is very hard to find an inexpensive shotgun.


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## alleyyooper

I have 40 year old shot guns a little loose.

What is really a little loose don't mean squat as long as it locks up at the breech.
just because I said cow boy action shooters doesn't mean the load would only work in their sawed off SXS either.

 Al


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## FarmboyBill

Dang, I doubt you could load and shoot a real single shot any faster than that.


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## blanket

seen a lot of pipe guns all over the world from VN and the Philippines to the cold north


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## Bearfootfarm

alleyyooper said:


> just because I said *cow boy action shooters* doesn't mean the load would only work in their sawed off SXS either.


No, but it does imply people who actually shoot and are both familiar and experienced with guns and reloading.

That doesn't describe FarmboyBill at all.


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## alleyyooper

And you the expert can discribe farm boy bill to a T right?

 Al


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## FarmboyBill

Alley, I have to agree with Bear. He should really know me, as he follows me everywhere I post lol


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

FarmboyBill said:


> I have an OLD T. Banner or Barker 12ga 36in barrel shotgun. I shoot quail loads in it, but it is somewhat loose. I DID find a store that sold hulls loaded with black powder, blanks.


I guess this is the statement that you made that I gave the impression that you no longer thought the gun was safe even to shoot quail loads and if you were questioning it's safety with quail loads I didn't see where black powder would be any better.

modifying blanks to have a payload of lead is also not a good idea.

if you are saying it is safe to shoot quail loads then just shoot quail loads problem solved.


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## Bearfootfarm

alleyyooper said:


> And you the expert can discribe farm boy bill to a T right?


Read all the threads he's started and ask yourself if I came close.

When you see someone asking about cutting open black powder blanks to fill them with shot because they are afraid normal shells are too hard on the gun, do you *really *think they have a good grasp on what is involved in regards to internal ballistics? 

Bill knows a lot of stuff I'm sure, but guns and reloading aren't a part of that knowledge, and past history indicates he's not likely to do all it takes to do it safely if it costs money.


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## M5farm

Bearfootfarm said:


> Read all the threads he's started and ask yourself if I came close.
> 
> When you see someone asking about cutting open black powder blanks to fill them with shot because they are afraid normal shells are too hard on the gun, do you *really *think they have a good grasp on what is involved in regards to internal ballistics?
> 
> Bill knows a lot of stuff I'm sure, but guns and reloading aren't a part of that knowledge, and past history indicates he's not likely to do all it takes to do it safely if it costs money.


he's an expert on women, batteries , hay, and hay balers and water meters just to name a few.


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## Bearfootfarm

M5farm said:


> he's an expert on *women*


"wimmens"


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## M5farm

Bearfootfarm said:


> "wimmens"


my apologies. I forgot. LOL


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## JawjaBoy

I load up BP shotshells on occasion to use in my Grandad's old J. Stevens Arm and Tool rabbit ear SxS. The loads are a lab tested recipe developing 8,700 psi. MUCH lower than all but the very lightest smokeless loads. And, loaded in Federal Gold Medal paper hulls gives me some of the same feel and experience that my Grandad had when he hunted with the gun.


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## FarmboyBill

I saw a couple reloading vids last night. Pretty sure I can do it. Alley, I didn't say I thought the quail loads were good for the gun. I just said I thought that was the lightest load I could get smokeless.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

look at the published data , you can go well below 8,700 psi with smokless if you use a 1oz lead shot load . Hodgdon publishes loads down to 4,900psi for a 1oz 12ga. and your really not even giving up that much velocity.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/shotgun

or there is this company that specializes in shells for old guns 2 , 2 1/2 , 2 3/4 loads and they seem to be proced about 15 dollars a box definitly more than regular off the shelf stuff but if you only buying a box or two 

http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/2-12-Gauge.aspx


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## FarmboyBill

Thanks Alley. I got their Ph#


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## JawjaBoy

The 8,700 psi load I load is heavier than that. I believe 1 1/4 ounce but I'd have to look at the recipe to be sure. Also, my gunsmith says that while the gun is safe to fire, to NEVER do so with even light smokeless loads as it wasn't designed for them and smokless powder generates a much different pressure curve than black.


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## weaselfire

Buffalo Arms sells a lot of black powder ammunition, including shotgun shells, for Cowboy Action shooters.

Jeff


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## damoc

I just found my old BP handbook and loading manual by lyman and it has a load listed for muzzelloading 26" inch barrel 12 gauge with a modified choke 75 grains pyrodex (not real BP) 1 oz shot with muzzle velocity of 1140 fps and a pressure of only 1,000 PSI.


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## Bearfootfarm

damoc said:


> a pressure of only 1,000 PSI.


Sounds like a typo to me.
It should probably be 10,000


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## FarmboyBill

Thanks Jeff, Ill check them out.


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## damoc

Bearfootfarm said:


> Sounds like a typo to me.
> It should probably be 10,000


Unlikely it has several pages on loads for muzzle loading that was the lowest pressure but it was consistent with the other
load variations published.
There was another load of interest 100 grains pyrodex RS 1 OZ lead shot out of a cartridge produced pressure of 3150 PSI
and 1250 FPS.Interesting because 25% more pyrodex RS got 3 times the pressure with possibly a little more initial pressure buildup due to the cartridge.Same 100 grain load 1OZ lead with real BP Elephant FFG got only 2100 PSI and 1140 FPS.

All very low pressures comparing to smokeless but very useful FPS.


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## blanket

Last BP shotshell thread


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