# If things got bad, real bad



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I am not suggesting we are headed toward the apocalypses, or that we will suddenly lose the glue that holds the world together. I am simply entertaining myself with a what if scenario that has little to no possibility of coming to fruition. 

If civil authority dissolved, and there was no longer any rule of law, would you:

Create and lead a citizens militia
Join a citizens militia
Hunker down and fend for me and mine only


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

Choice 4 - take it one day at a time. 

Which would you do?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> Choice 4 - take it one day at a time.
> 
> Which would you do?


I live on a dead end road with good neighbors. I suspect we would pull together


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

HDRider said:


> I live on a dead end road with good neighbors. I suspect we would pull together


To be honest, at one point, I did consider barb wiring the perimeter of our land, but. $$$$


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> To be honest, at one point, I did consider barb wiring the perimeter of our land, but. $$$$


Mine barely stops the cows. My fences are just suggestions in some places


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

HDRider said:


> Mine barely stops the cows. My fences are just suggestions in some places


I am humbled by the strength of large animals, like cows.
we are so forested it would double as a booby trap in most places.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

I’ll do everything within my power for my family and I to become “Invisible”, to live our lives “under the radar”. That being said should push come to shove….(If we’re gonna dance, then I’m gonna lead!!!)


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I'd have to say take it one day at a time too. I would have to see how my neighbors are handling the situation and decide if I want to stay put or head out to care for not too distant family members.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

I'm with KK. Try to lay low. 

But if pushed, hit first, hard and messy. Make an example and hope all see it so it leaves an impression.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I'd join something. If society does come apart, there will be roving bands of hungry thieves to fend off. Over time, the bands will get larger and larger, more organized, and more vicious.

I want to join the biggest, baddest group of people I can find, that still have some decency and principles.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> I'd join something. If society does come apart, there will be roving bands of hungry thieves to fend off. Over time, the bands will get larger and larger, more organized, and more vicious.
> 
> I want to join the* biggest, baddest group *of people I can find, that still *have some decency and principles*.


I agree with the first part.

I can see how that latter part of the second statement might be wishful thinking


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## Wellbuilt (Dec 25, 2020)

I would head to the cabin , and lay low . 
There are not many houses in my area , mostly dairy farms but I’m sure we would come together . 
Most of the land is owned by some one , so there aren’t hordes of people that have been camping /hunting here they may be over on state land .


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Wellbuilt said:


> I would head to the cabin , and lay low .
> There are not many houses in my area , mostly dairy farms but I’m sure we would come together .
> Most of the land is owned by some one , so there aren’t hordes of people that have been camping /hunting here they may be over on state land .


How far are you from a town of 30,000 or more?


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## wkndwrnch (Oct 7, 2012)

I am just wondering if Australia saw the current conditions coming. Did they change or prepare differently? Do they have conditions we would consider bad or worse? Does anyone know homesteaders in Australia? Sorry if I stole a thread, I was trying to think about what would these people do if things got bad. What did they do to protect themselves?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

I'll just stay here and take care of things. There are some tough but good people out our way and the further you get off the main road the tougher they are. My brother lives in the last house on the last road. And I live in a hollow tree just beyond my brother's house.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Already live in a community of like minded individuals with plans in place to use strategic geography to our advantage that has been used before with much success.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

barnbilder said:


> Already live in a community of like minded individuals with plans in place to use strategic geography to our advantage that has been used before with much success.


Same here.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

How long is suddenly ?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

TripleD said:


> How long is suddenly ?


Suddenly means you did not really expect it. Might be tomorrow, might be 10 years.

I don't think we will hear air sirens and get text warnings like a tornado. 

It will be like Ferguson not stopping, and growing, and not stopping. It will surprise many of us, not all, but many wil be caught off guard.

I think it is most people's nature to think it will not happen, until it does. 

I see a lot of posts with people moaning about how HT just ain't what it used to be. Complaining the good old days are gone. These times have changed, and it has changed us. Social media has changed us. The country is bifurcated. Homesteading and prepping are merging, and it pays to keep your ears perked, and your eyes open.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

What we consider WROL, is just another day at the office for same places in the world. Chad, Niger, Cartel occupied parts of Mexico. People go about their lives, and consider it normal. You do not want to stand out, appear prosperous, or armed. Under the Radar is the rule of the day.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

I don't know. I guess I'd start up some of the old pulp and paper mills going again and start producing toilet paper to sell or trade to the desperate masses. It would make me rich overnight. Such an enterprise would make me the richest and most powerful petty tyrant and overlord in my locality.

Bwa-ha-ha-ha <------ evil overlord laugh. 

Or probably just do what KK and NCHobbyfarm would do. (only with a toilet paper factory as a sideline)

Honestly, I'm getting way too old and decrepit and physically disabled to be thinking about stuff like this. If things really go sideways maybe I'll just jump off the top of my ivory tower and let the young people deal with the world's problems.

.


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## Olhomestead (Mar 3, 2021)

First, I don't know what a lot of the acronyms folks use so if I get something misunderstood Oops. 
We could last a year without going shopping around here. And raising rabbits doesn't hurt. 
But if I feel that my family is in harms way. We're heading to a remote cabin in the middle of nowhere Alaska.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Olhomestead said:


> First, I don't know what a lot of the acronyms folks use so if I get something misunderstood Oops.
> We could last a year without going shopping around here. And raising rabbits doesn't hurt.
> But if I feel that my family is in harms way. We're heading to a remote cabin in the middle of nowhere Alaska.


Wow! That's a great little cabin, I love it. Well done! 

.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

What we would do would depend on HOW things got real bad real fast.

I think there are some really, really smart people here, which is why I started the thread a few weeks ago to get people's opinions on HOW they thought it would go bad.

If there IS a federal government then it would only take a few weeks of going real bad before someone in a humvee paid a visit to reestablish order. So local rioting/Ferguson effect....We have camp (future homesite) that is our bugout 45 minutes from major city we currently live in.

Ferguson lasted a few days, Katrina devolution lasted a week before order started getting restored. 

Major major cataclysmic event like another New Madrid quake would take much longer and might spell the end of the US. Same with a Yosemite eruption, meteor/comet strike or nuke war. That would be a sudden event that would cause zombie hoards in just a few days.

More likely scenario will be the political/economic end of the federal government through runaway inflation and a coup or contested election.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

After the fact, when you are trying to find something to eat, it wouldn't matter what caused it. And if the Feds showed up to restore order, that would be the time to run for the hills. Martial Law is not your friend, and anyone trying to enforce Martial Law is your enemy.


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## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

My wife, and I have discussed this in detail. We have a 10 acre farm with all sorts of provisions, animals, and gardens...we will hunker down in place, and keep a watch out for zombies (people walking aimlessly with out stretched arms). My daughter/SO live 1/4 mile down the road, so they would probably also help out at our place (of course combining our food stores, and weapons will increase our chances. I imagine my son would also move back in from his apartment in town. There would be 6-8 of us on constant alert, and also to divide the work, and combine our resources.

Sorry, no neighbors, or non-family.

I don't want to be any part of a militia where decisions don't belong to me, and property becomes public property, and I may be put in more danger than if not in a militia (target).


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Those evil sniper/ deer rifles would just be open season for "the bad people". One trip to town and back to the farm...


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

CKelly78z said:


> I don't want to be any part of a militia where decisions don't belong to me, and property becomes public property, and I may be put in more danger than if not in a militia (target).


I would ever join any kind of group, or invite anyone to my place. As soon as a group forms, the first thing they do is hold an election to choose a leader. A group could vote you right out of your property, food, ammo, or weapons. In a world without law situation, a group would be more like a biker gang than anything else. No thanks.


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## Vjk (Apr 28, 2020)

The county I live in is in a valley with 1 road in over the mountains to the east,1 road in over the mountains to the west, 1 road in down the river from the south, and1 road in up the river from the north. All easily defensible. The Sheriff is responsible for maintaining a 5 year plan for defense of the valley. For my own place, I've been piling brush and downed trees along the perimeter for years. And planting wild roses and raspberries among the brush. Believe me, no body or no thing really wants to push through those thorns.


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## starrynights (Oct 7, 2021)

Paumon said:


> I don't know. I guess I'd start up some of the old pulp and paper mills going again and start producing toilet paper to sell or trade to the desperate masses. It would make me rich overnight. Such an enterprise would make me the richest and most powerful petty tyrant and overlord in my locality.
> 
> Bwa-ha-ha-ha <------ evil overlord laugh.
> 
> ...


sounds like a plan


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## starrynights (Oct 7, 2021)

Vjk said:


> The county I live in is in a valley with 1 road in over the mountains to the east,1 road in over the mountains to the west, 1 road in down the river from the south, and1 road in up the river from the north. All easily defensible. The Sheriff is responsible for maintaining a 5 year plan for defense of the valley. For my own place, I've been piling brush and downed trees along the perimeter for years. And planting wild roses and raspberries among the brush. Believe me, no body or no thing really wants to push through those thorns.


Have you thought of stocking medical supplies and learning a few small surgical techniques
??


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

The word "suddenly" has been bandied about, but nothing about this is sudden.

The whole thing has been decades in the making, and it continues to happen in present time. The only thing to consider is: when do we hunker down, how far do we distance ourselves from syphilization, when is the balance finally tipped?

"The glue that holds us together" that @HDRider mentioned before is dissolving before our eyes, and has been for a while. The main unit of our society, the family, has been gutted by the enemy. Now, the push is to isolate people from each other, take the social supports completely away, so that those who survive will be forced into dependence on the government.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

That is it. Well said @Pony


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

HDRider said:


> That is it. Well said @Pony


Thanks.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

I think we will watch "Red Dawn" tonight. Wolverines!


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Cabin Fever said:


> I think we will watch "Red Dawn" tonight. Wolverines!


The original, right?


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Pony said:


> The original, right?


Is there any other?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Cabin Fever said:


> Is there any other?





Cabin Fever said:


> Is there any other?


One in 2012 not as good though!!!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I would have to hurry up and finish building Thunderdome before the raggedy man gets here.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I have a plan in place and it's not likely we will run out of ammo in my lifetime. There are 3 main ones in the plan and we will work together but separate. Until we won't need to anymore. 

I don't feel like it would last very long like mad max or anything. There would be a Stalin or a Washington that would take over and create some sort of structure. Problem in my mind is, that may the very person that starts it to begin with.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I'm watching Atlas Shrugged, 2011 movie. Read the book a couple of times, kinda fits how things are going.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

no really said:


> I'm watching Atlas Shrugged, 2011 movie. Read the book a couple of times, kinda fits how things are going.


How is the movie?

That was one boring book


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

HDRider said:


> How is the movie?
> 
> That was one boring book


Movie's not bad, kinda skipped over the more boring parts of the book. IMO But the movie is in three parts, it's long.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

no really said:


> Movie's not bad, kinda skipped over the more boring parts of the book. IMO But the movie is in three parts, it's long.


A friend named his daughter Dagny


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

These threads are always interesting to read...and always stimulate thoughts and doubts!

I am certain my thoughts in this regard have changed greatly over the years....as I have aged, and kids grew up and moved away.

Now I am mid-60s and near retirement. Just the wife and I.

We have acreage in a fairly remote and sparsely populated area.

We only know a very few people in the general area well enough that we could trust them (you know who you are!). 

I am a firm believer in the sovereignty of God, and firmly believe that friends are always better than enemies.

I also subscribe to Gen Mattis' old saw about being professional and polite, but having a plan to kill everyone you meet.

So if I had to vote in the poll, I would lean heavily toward staying under the radar, while trying to cooperate with a few like-minded people I can trust. No big groups. When the SHTF, I am not giving up control to strangers.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

When the end of the world as we know it (TEOTWAWKI) hits I don't think isolated single family homes are the answer. Consider the homesteaders caught in indian uprisings in the 1800s. The warlord mobs that would form would overrun individual homesteads. I think several families should congregate at the most defensible location.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

People fear going into a ghetto for getting robbed, beaten, killed and left along the sidewalk or alley.
People fear going into sparse rural areas for getting shot. But know that you will at least be given a burial in several locations.
If country dwellers hear every vehicle that goes by now, how do you think they will be when things get bad?
No trespassing signs are a warning when there are laws.
When there are no laws there are no warnings.
You will not live then as you do now.


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## Wellbuilt (Dec 25, 2020)

HDR 
I’m about 45 miles from a large town and off the beaten path .
There is no reason to travel this way , it’s a long walk to no where .
We have a collage about 15 miles away in a small town 1/4 mil long with some small store and small food store .
If thing go bad I’m thinking the kids will be long gone in the first days.
And then there are mostly retired people around .
The biggest problem I see is the lack of opportunity for resupply .
I keep fuel stored but get 12 mpg around town so after a year or so I’m not sure what’s going to happen .


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

I was just remembering when we moved here, our neighbor, 78 years old, across the street, about 1/4 mile past us said this:

"Well, I'll tell you one thing, the Taliban might make it past your house, but they aren't going to make it past mine."


Thought that might make someone smile. 
Makes me smile that this is my neighbor and not the 108,000 people in the old place I lived.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

TripleD said:


> One in 2012 not as good though!!!


There. Fixed it for you.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

tarbe said:


> We only know a very few people in the general area well enough that we could trust them (you know who you are!).
> 
> I also subscribe to Gen Mattis' old saw about being professional and polite, but having a *plan to kill everyone you meet.*


Okay, now I either have to be afraid, or have to come up with a plan of my own.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Nimrod said:


> . I think several families should congregate at the most defensible location.


Agree.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Pony said:


> Okay, now I either have to be afraid, or have to come up with a plan of my own.


Always have a plan! Or two!


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## Hartley (Aug 29, 2019)

HDRider said:


> I am not suggesting we are headed toward the apocalypses, or that we will suddenly lose the glue that holds the world together. I am simply entertaining myself with a what if scenario that has little to no possibility of coming to fruition.
> 
> If civil authority dissolved, and there was no longer any rule of law, would you:
> 
> ...


Some kind of combination of ((1 or 2) and three).


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## Markansas (Nov 24, 2021)

HDRider said:


> I am not suggesting we are headed toward the apocalypses, or that we will suddenly lose the glue that holds the world together. I am simply entertaining myself with a what if scenario that has little to no possibility of coming to fruition.
> 
> If civil authority dissolved, and there was no longer any rule of law, would you:
> 
> ...


 find out who has all the guns and either make them your friend or take there guns. dog eat dog right. you survive.what else would matter. not them.


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## Reyth (Oct 4, 2021)

There is no doubt we are in the Apocalypse (I am not citing proof in this post).

Yesterday and today we have seen both Germany and Austria set deadlines for mandatory vaccination for all citizens and Germany even appointed a *military general* to oversee that operation. We have very fine shades of gray of this trend in Canada, UK & Australia. In a province of India, you may not purchase food nor gasoline. In Lithuania, all major food suppliers will not sell to you.

The United States has the "least strict" version of it but I have gotten tired of hearing people say they got the shot because they were "forced to", in this country and around the world.

I am especially concerned what might occur in the next 2-3 months on multiple fronts as the deadlines kick in around the world and we have a "new variant pandemic".

I am particularly concerned over a "sudden" and prolonged power outage; say Texas 2.0 but over the whole country; i.e. without warning or announcement.

I think we should all be prepared to die, at least as a first step.


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## Markansas (Nov 24, 2021)

Reyth said:


> There is no doubt we are in the Apocalypse (I am not citing proof in this post).
> 
> Yesterday and today we have seen both Germany and Austria set deadlines for mandatory vaccination for all citizens and Germany even appointed a *military general* to oversee that operation. We have very fine shades of gray of this trend in Canada, UK & Australia.
> 
> ...


covid mortality rate









spanish flu.. which started in kansas
More than 50 million people died of the disease worldwide, with 675,000 in the U.S. There is some disagreement on that figure, with recent researchers suggesting it was about 17.4 million deaths, while others go as high as 100 million. The fatality rate for the Spanish flu is calculated at *about 2%

myself i will get the shot and wear a mask.*


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

I live in a tiny town (500 people), just west of the Continental Divide. Trump flags are still in the yards of 90% of the properties. If SHTF, this whole town would bond together... maybe a little like the book, _One Second After. 

That being said, my property is 14 miles away, very remote and I would probably head out there, as my preps are sufficient. 


........_


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## Reyth (Oct 4, 2021)

Markansas said:


> spanish flu.. which started in kansas











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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

tarbe said:


> Always have a plan! Or two!


My plans usually involve grilling and side dishes.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

If we have learned anything from the days of Viet Nam, it's that marching in a line, like the British once did, will end you. On the other hand, blending in and raising up only when you must or should means you can deal with another day.

In the course of such things comes the problem of recognizing who is an idiot, evil or other, but were not noteworthy to those ends because laws and the risk of accountability bound them. Sadly, that includes brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, grand parents and, most sadly, our own children.

The influence of our agents is no small matter. Our children come home from school claiming, based on the authority in their life's claim, "the second has been done away with," or the federal government is the ultimate authority [as if the 9th 10th and all the limiitations of the federal constitution, OR THE OTHER FIFTY CONSTITUTIONS do not exist.

By the way, elsewhere, I am known as Percey Blakeney, OR the Scarlet Pimpernil.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

I think a 4th option would be something like a mutual defense compact between like-minded neighbors. 

While not formalized, I am sure we already have one between ourselves and two of the three houses that can be seen from our homestead. Kinda easy to identify them by the MAGA flags flying.

The 3rd house was in the compact but they just moved, house/land bought a site unseen by a couple from California. Haven't met them yet so don't know if they have enough sense not to spread their leftist political shyt and ruin our area or not.

If so....probably won't go well for them when things get really bad.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Remember, federal government is an imaginary thing. It can neither do good nor evil, except through the action of its agents. There are only so many of those agents, be they military, politicians or others. AND many of those are us, or like minded, and leery of being led around by some ignorant or agenda driven agent.



boatswain2PA said:


> _f there IS a federal government then it would only take a few weeks of going real bad before someone in a humvee paid a visit to reestablish order. So local rioting/Ferguson effect....We have camp (future homesite) that is our bugout 45 minutes from major city we currently live in.
> _


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

ladytoysdream said:


> Sad to see a interesting topic go off course.
> 
> I was planning on posting. ( I did vote )


Don't let that stop you. They ALWAYS go off topic


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## ladytoysdream (Dec 13, 2008)

I know.............


Me and mine would just hunker down where we are and lay low.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

EXACTLY, that IS our history: 

A few hundred years ago, were were colonies of people. Colonies came about because they allowed us to best use ALL resources, whether ones necessary for keeping the food stores full or for mounting a defense against another colony, individual or group of individuals.

In time, states allowed us to defend against even larger forces. Later, the states also joined with each other. HOWEVER, and contrary to what most politicians, educators and other public servants would have us believe, the states held on to sovereignty, which the tenth amendment to the federal constitution makes clear. 

Regarding all the above, not just one, but FIFTY-ONE constitutions were formed. The fifty state constitutions worked as checks and balances against the agents of the principal out of the federal constitution. As the 10th states, the federal constitution established the federal government (the United States) powers as finite, while those of the several, united states were infinite, with only a few of the [liberty] rights enumerated.

Too, each new country (state) was, per the Equal Footing Doctrine, equal in power to all those that came before.

In short, with clear cut agreements/understandings, there is power in numbers. Imagine rogue agents abusing their power surrounding a single cabin, only to turn around and see they, in turn, were surrounded.



Nimrod said:


> When the end of the world as we know it (TEOTWAWKI) hits I don't think isolated single family homes are the answer. Consider the homesteaders caught in indian uprisings in the 1800s. The warlord mobs that would form would overrun individual homesteads. I think several families should congregate at the most defensible location.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

I think we sometimes label people as trolls simply because they don't agree with the groupthink of the board. While the personal attacks aren't appropriate, I don't mind someone challenging my beliefs (it is helpful if they can put a sentence together better than our President can.)


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

To be fair, when someone talks of killing others and taking what they have, they are a troll of the worst kind. That is, they are the very thing most would defend against, and even reasonable minds would applaud their demise, when it came. It's one thing to be a "every man for himself" person and another to take that to the point of being willing to murder and maim because you failed to prepare, or lost what was yours.




boatswain2PA said:


> I think we sometimes label people as trolls simply because they don't agree with the groupthink of the board. While the personal attacks aren't appropriate, I don't mind someone challenging my beliefs (it is helpful if they can put a sentence together better than our President can.)


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Kelly Craig said:


> To be fair, when someone talks of killing others and taking what they have, they are a troll of the worst kind. That is, they are the very thing most would defend against, and even reasonable minds would applaud their demise, when it came. It's one thing to be a "every man for himself" person and another to take that to the point of being willing to murder and maim because you failed to prepare, or lost what was yours.


Look at my signature line?


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## KC Rock (Oct 28, 2021)

HDRider said:


> I am not suggesting we are headed toward the apocalypses, or that we will suddenly lose the glue that holds the world together. I am simply entertaining myself with a what if scenario that has little to no possibility of coming to fruition.
> 
> If civil authority dissolved, and there was no longer any rule of law, would you:
> 
> ...


 We've already been that route on 1 - 6. Maybe the ongoing trials will discourage more "civil disobedience"...


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

The question is too vague. Define "very bad", what is considered bad by some, might be considered good or even welcome by others. The business of the Federal Government was supposed to be international trade, and national defense. The Federal Government has no Constitutional authority to involve itself in housing, education, health care, disaster relief, unemployment benefits, welfare programs, foreign aid, free cell phones, or arming the Taliban. Yet here we are. So the failure of the Federal Government might be seen by some as a great reset, and long overdue.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Add to that blowing taxpayer money on for profit shots for the world, open borders and so on. 

Interestingly, on the matter of failing to secure our borders, WArshington laws, codified as the Revised Code of Washington [RCW's] state failure to perform the duties of an office is a crime (RCW 42.20.100).

Then there is the matter of oaths to uphold the laws and constitutions of the united states and the United States. The higher courts have declared them so important a failure to take one equates to abandonment of office. Further, the courts, also, stated they cannot be taken retroactively.

People really have no idea of how off the rails our local, state and federal governments (agents) are. Ole Creepy, during the rigging, bragged about getting gun free zones in place. He failed to mention CONgress was, essentially, overthrowing lawful government by attempting to do so. Fortunately, THAT TIME, the U.S. Supreme Court, in U.S. vs LOPEZ (1995), struck down all the gun free zones in the several, united states. As the Court said, schools have nothing to do with interstate commerce.

On the matter of the second and each state equivalent, we are long past due having clear statements of when such rights can be, properly, exercised. For example, our laws replaced the wild west of television fame. However, when a situation calls for remedy (protection, compensation, etc.), but police, prosecutors, attorneys general and the courts refuse or otherwise fail to make them available, we are right back where we started.




muleskinner2 said:


> The question is too vague. Define "very bad", what is considered bad by some, might be considered good or even welcome by others. The business of the Federal Government was supposed to be international trade, and national defense. The Federal Government has no Constitutional authority to involve itself in housing, education, health care, disaster relief, unemployment benefits, welfare programs, foreign aid, free cell phones, or arming the Taliban. Yet here we are. So the failure of the Federal Government might be seen by some as a great reset, and long overdue.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

KC Rock said:


> We've already been that route on 1 - 6. Maybe the ongoing trials will discourage more "civil disobedience"...


or was it when knock out games started

or was it when BLM and wannbe's took over part of Seattle

or was it when socialist abandoned their oaths of office and implemented other than what they were sworn to deliver

or. . . .


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

muleskinner2 said:


> I have done some of my best shooting in the dark, at very close range. Anyone who is not competent to carry a weapon in the dark, shouldn't carry one at all.


Ouch. I'll just say this: loosing a few rounds in the direction of something you can't see or target could be worth a lot as long as something important/valuable is not in the background. But, OTOH, that's why God created night scopes.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

JRHill02 said:


> Ouch. I'll just say this: loosing a few rounds in the direction of something you can't see or target could be worth a lot as long as something important/valuable is not in the background. But, OTOH, that's why God created night scopes.


When I say "very close range" I mean touching distance, or arms length. I have never loosed rounds in the direction of something I couldn't see well enough to justify the shot.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Markansas said:


> no


There was a time when I wanted to kill this account. In more recent times there have been posts about how this forum has changed. I don't know about the history but it sure seems evident it has gotten more political. That's OK, we should all learn from one another. How it this different from a gathering of neighbors and family? Here it is: in those gatherings you are face to face. Just because one is behind a keyboard doesn't mean the difference in opinions should be any different or less respectful.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Whether we like it or not, sometimes politics are inseparable from other things. Here, we are talking situations that come about because of any number of things. Too, it could be on a large or small scale, like the crap that took place in Seattle and Portland. It could be current or future invasions, politicians who stepped [even farther] outside their scope of authority (the FIFTY-ONE constitutions exist for good reason) and so on.



JRHill02 said:


> There was a time when I wanted to kill this account. In more recent times there have been posts about how this forum has changed. I don't know about the history but it sure seems evident it has gotten more political. That's OK, we should all learn from one another. How it this different from a gathering of neighbors and family? Here it is: in those gatherings you are face to face. Just because one is behind a keyboard doesn't mean the difference in opinions should be any different or less respectful.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

JRHill02 said:


> Ouch. I'll just say this: loosing a few rounds in the direction of something you can't see or target could be worth a lot as long as something important/valuable is not in the background. But, OTOH, that's why God created night scopes.


If you own guns, sell them.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

HDRider said:


> If you own guns, sell them.


Nah, I'll just give them to the wife. I'm sure there will be a retort.


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