# Safe copper levels?



## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

Hi all,
Just wanna find out from the people who really know instead of the ones at the feed store who would sell you a dog and tell you it's a lamb if a lamb is what you really want and they can make the sale! LOL.  

So here is my question...I need to know at what level is copper safe in a mineral block for sheep? I know that I have to think about the levels of copper in the grass, alfalfa etc. Just wondering what the safe level is.

The feed store sold me a block last year that was for "sheep AND goats!" I now know that there is no such thing!! Thanks everyone!!


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## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

What kind of sheep do you have? And what is the amount of copper that is in the block. It could easily be safe for sheep and goats if it's extremely low copper and you're supplementing the goats separately.


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## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

I have Pelibuey and Barbadosa sheep. I am not sure how much is in this one, I need to run to the store and see because my goats ate the paper off the side of the block...lol! It said 30 something. Can't remember if it was ppm or what. I will check at the store. What level is toxic to sheep?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/sheep/articles/coppertox.html



> it becomes quickly apparent that copper nutrition in sheep is pretty complicated. It is no wonder that it is a significant concern in mid-western sheep operations. Sheep have a narrow range or band between required levels of copper and levels where toxicity can occur. *In general, sheep need four to eight ppm of copper in the diet, depending on breed, sulfur, and molybdenum levels in the diet. Consider the fact that a sheep diet of 80% mixed hay and 20% of a grain mix can have copper levels of 14 to 15 ppm, without any added copper, and it is easy to see why copper toxicity can be a problem. In general, copper levels in a diet for sheep with molybdenum levels at three ppm or slightly higher can usually tolerate 20 to 25 ppm copper*. Sheep fed diets lower in molybdenum than this tolerate lower levels of copper. Especially if the sheep are of British or Texel origin.


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## Slev (Nov 29, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/sheep/articles/coppertox.html


...yea, what she said.... :clap:

I was going that direction. Individual sheep as well as certain breeds seem to be able to have some copper levels. There is such a thing as a "Sheep&Goat" block, also check the all livestock mineral bags, they list copper content in ppm. But what I would do is contact the ASI, American Sheep Institute and ask them, or your local Extension office, maybe (they don't always have the right answers, but they know hoe to find them.) 

Good luck.


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## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

Before you crow too loudly <g> let me be clear:

Even though I ditto Slev in saying - contact someone who knows - when you read things from Cornell, Pipestone and ext offices, they're talking about "improved" white sheep. That's why I belong to a breed association and use that resource - a lot. Cornell et al - while excellent - are of extremely limited use to me.

Many of us on the board have primitives. Icelandics and Soay come immediately to mind - which is why I first asked what kind of sheep. It's an important question as many primitives require significant (for sheep) levels of copper. Levels much closer to that of goats than sheep. If my sheep aren't getting copper, I have problems. I have never had a problem with toxicity, however but I am always monitoring and it is a juggling act because there is no steadfast answer for these guys. I could make some serious money if I came up with a "primitive breeds" mineral mix.

Additionally, when I was last mineral shopping, I went through all of the options. The sheep mineral mix had none -literally none. Fine if you have Katahdins no good for Icelandics. Sheep and goat none (I think it said trace because it was too small to be measured, but I don't have it in front of me). It said on the bag, additional supplement for goats was required. I'm not saying that you should get it - and I agree it's misleading to say sheep and goat- but it could be just fine for sheep. 

I thought blocks for sheep though, weren't a great idea. I prefer loose mineral, personally.


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## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

They don't sell loose minerals here. I live in a remote part of Chihuahua, Mexico and we, needless to say don't have an extension office. Are Barbados or Pelibuey considered primitive??? Other people around here don't give mineral blocks to sheep, or anything really other than alfalfa or hay leftover after cutting down sorghum. Should I take out the mineral block? Would leaving it one week and taking it out the next be a good idea?


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## pookshollow (Aug 22, 2005)

> Icelandics and Soay come immediately to mind - which is why I first asked what kind of sheep. It's an important question as many primitives require significant (for sheep) levels of copper.


That's interesting. I was researching Soays (would love to have some) and one site said that they are even more sensitive to copper overdose than more modern breeds.


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## eieiomom (Jun 22, 2005)

British breeds of sheep, i.e. Lincoln Longwools, are more vulnerable to copper toxicity too.

I fed a particular brand of sheep and goat block for many years before switching to loose mineral and it was fine, I also had it tested.

You do need to watch each type of mineral block and since you only have blocks available, I would remove some of the mineral and have it sent to a lab and tested for copper.
It would be well worth it, since that's what is available in your area. 

The sheep should have mineral available at all times.


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## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

That sounds like a good idea...to have it tested. I will have to do that. I just hope that it isn't doing any damage to them. What about my idea of putting the block in for a week and then out for a week. Just until I can get it tested. I know that copper poisoning is something that builds up. It is a gradual thing most of the time. Could it clean out their system having it off and on?


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## eieiomom (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi,

Since it is formulated for sheep, I would assume it was ok, although there are the exceptions.
How long have you had these sheep, what have you been feeding or what were the previous owners feeding up to present ?

I would not take it away because that would encourage more intake, upon giving it back to them.

Testing it, if possible would be my suggestion and keep up with what you have been feeding.


Deb


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## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

eieiomom said:


> British breeds of sheep, i.e. Lincoln Longwools, are more vulnerable to copper toxicity too.


That may tie into the Soays. As I don't have them, I shouldn't speak about them. It was a recollection from reading about them but I should stick with Icelandics <g>. For Icelandics I know that copper deficiency shows up in my darker sheep (white/grey bands). Low copper for them makes it difficult to deal with worm load. It seems to me that my uncle told me that about his flock - he'd keep a dark one and if the ewe greyed he knew they weren't getting enough copper and he'd add a little. But - that's not exactly scientific.

I think some British are more susceptible - ie Suffolks more than Dorsets, depending on the soil and natural feed in their original home. 

It seems to me that North Ronaldsay are also especially sensitive due to the seaweed diet. 

Desertshi - I know nothing about those breeds. Do you want to give us a quick lesson? I realized after that you were in Mexico - many of the extension offices will still help you if you email them. Maybe some of the ones near the US/Mexico border might be more familiar with your breeds (if they're desert breeds)?


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## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

Two quick things - since it sounds like you're on your own, I would strongly encourage you to order Pat Coleby's book, "Natural Sheep Care". It's about my favourite book. She has a huge amount of copper related info in there.

Here's the other thing - not to deny the reality of copper toxicity - it's real and sheep can die from it... however, as was pointed out in another discussion -if copper is so dangerous to sheep, why are copper boluses an acceptable method of worm prevention? There is a certain amount of copper that is bioavailable in the boluses. So, while it's something to be aware of, it's not something to panic about. Unless you're one of the really rare people with North Ronaldsay sheep but then you're also probably living on North Ronaldsay and you know this doesn't apply.


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## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

thank you very much flannelberry! I will definantly look into that book. Because I don't have alot of good help around where I live (the vet doesn't even really know, as he overdosed my $2000 Holstein heifer and killed her) I love being a part of this forum where I can get opinions and some really knowledgeable people to help me! Thankyou for helping aliviate my worrying some!!


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## Silverwolff (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm finding this thread to be REALLY informative! Thanks so much for all the knowledge being shared!

I regularly offer my goats the Meat Maker (made by Sweetlix) loose minerals, but I don't keep it out for them because the sheep (2 Perendale wethers, and a Jacob's pair of wethered bro and sis) are in the next pen, and I don't want to have them accidentally ever get into it. It says right on the bag DO NOT FEED TO SHEEP, and the ppm are around 1700.

I went on the Sweetlix website to see what else they've got especially for sheep since this thread made me curious. They apparently offer something called 'Super Sheep' which is complete sheep mineral nutrition. Anybody have experience with this? Is there something out there that a lot of people use/swear by? Do I need to give them supplements at all?

Right now, the sheep are getting triticale hay, which they love and snarf down. I haven't had it tested for protein or anything else, because all the critters on my place eat it and seem to love it. The goats, sheep, horses, even the chickens and geese pick through it.

I'm still an animal novice, (I feel like it, anyway) about nutrition, diseases, etc. So I'd love any advice/input.  Thanks!

--Silverwolff


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## pookshollow (Aug 22, 2005)

I have no firsthand experience of this, but there is one option for goats - copper bolusing. You'd have to search on the goat forum for dosages. People get the ones for cattle, then break them down into suitable dosages for goats. That way, you could put out sheep mineral and still have the copper levels appropriate for the goats.

I'm going to have to look into this myself now that I have a lamb - don't know if Jeffers will even ship to Canada.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Unless you're testing all the feeds your sheep are getting you really can't guess what copper levels you need in a suppliment. General rule of thumb is you do not feed supplimentary copper to sheep. My previous vet had to get out of sheep because his pasture was used to spread hog manure, the forages were very high in soluable copper. I knew a lady (an excellent shepherdess) who was so careful to eliminate copper her Dorsets got into trouble not having enough!


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## flannelberry (Jul 14, 2005)

I was just reading about how Dorsets (I think) evolved in salt marshlands with a higher copper amount in the natural grasses and so have different requirements than say Suffolks. It's so very interesting - I feel like a detective all of the time.


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## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

flannelberry said:


> Desertshi - I know nothing about those breeds. Do you want to give us a quick lesson? I realized after that you were in Mexico - many of the extension offices will still help you if you email them. Maybe some of the ones near the US/Mexico border might be more familiar with your breeds (if they're desert breeds)?


Sorry flannelberry, I didn't see this post for some reason! 
The two sheep that I run are hair sheep...for meat (as I am sure you know! ) They are used here in the desert because of their lack of wool and their ability to browse really well and survive with less green than some other breeds. I live only about 3 hours from the border of El Paso, so I assume that I could contact the extension office in El Paso. 

Thanks for everyones help!! Someone else already said it...this thread turned out to be very informative!!


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## WA_sheepgal (Jan 15, 2009)

When I read the title of this post, I thought NONE! I steer clear of anything with cooper in it for my Texels. They too have a higher susceptibility to copper toxicity and I avoid it like the plague. Had our soil tested and we have a minute amount so figured they get from our pastures a bit which seems to be enough. We send off a liver to the vet school once in in a while to make sure we're within normal limits for copper and so far, so good.


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