# What amount alfalfa pellets=what amount of hay?



## Jillis (Sep 11, 2005)

Some people talk about subbing alfalfa pellets for hay. I am wondering how that translates. Do 50 lbs of alfalfa pellets equal 50 lbs of hay? Is it as satisfying or healthy for goats?
Inquiring minds want to know. 

TIA, Jill!


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## christij (Mar 5, 2006)

I want to know too! The only negative I can think is that pellets don't stimulate the rumin (sorry sp) because they are compacted. I am only giving mine to the milker on the stand since I am not feeding any alf hay right now. Otherwise I give it to the others when I need to do something to them. =)


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## okiemom (May 12, 2002)

We fed ours from a free feed feeder. The waste was less in pellets than alfalfa hay by maybe half. The pellets have all of the alfalfa used and w/ hay the goats strip the stems and only eat the leaves all the stems were left on the ground out of the feeders. 

I never had problems w/ free feeding the pellets. They will hit it hard in the beginning but will level off to around 1-2lbs a day. We also did have a round bale of bermuda hay that they would nibble on.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

If the stems are used in the pellets then the roughage should be the same. I'll have to look for some as a back up to my alfalfa bales in case I run out.

Can goats do well being fed only alfalfa hay?


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Can goats do well being fed only alfalfa hay?
..............

With good alfalfa hay that you can keep the high percentage of protien and good amounts of E in with good low humidity storage (frozen is even better) all winter, alfalfa hay is the perfect feed. You would need little in the way of grain, some carbs, some fat, to add to a milking does diet. Certainly it would grow kids out wonderfully! Lucky you.

We have talked alfalfa pellets to death  I do keep out some grass hay which I pick up a bale weekly during the winter at most, none during late spring, summer and fall because my girls browse in the woods and some pasture. The mainstay of the diet is 3 pounds of alfalfa pellets each some more some less. The whole long stem forage idea that somehow goats don't chew their hay before swallowing  well it's silly. And if you ever have the opportuinity to butcher a goat and go thrugh a rumen it's ground up grass clippings....wow it looks exactly like soaked alfalfa pellets  Teasing but it is a very old arguement that hay is good alfalfa pellets are bad. Another is that goats only getting pellets will not build body capacity or rumen size, not sure there are goats with larger barrells than mine  Other than what they steal at shows from others hay feeders my goats have never had real alfalfa hay except as infant goatlings. I think they look wonderful. Vicki


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

A couple of things to consider:

Any pelleted feed contains binders and sometimes quite a bit of grain. Read your labels and know what you're buying to know what you're feeding. The labels aren't always great, though, so try to buy from a consistent source that can tell you exactly what's in them every time. JMO

Now some controversial thoughts on this:

Alfalfa pellets are often made of hay that wasn't good enough to sell as hay - not ALWAYS, but it is like fruit made into juice.

Alfalfa pellets and really any pelleted feed MAY be heat treated, which MAY destroy some of the valuable health benefits/enzymes found in NEWER hay (old hay loses some of it's vitamins too, more depending on the storage environment - as Vicki said, frozen seems to be best) - I understand hay does NOT tend to lose minerals, however. Interesting!

As an aside - in HORSES (non-ruminants), you HAVE to feed roughage for proper gut function. Vets with whom I've spoken, and many that have been around in rescue long enough to be called older than dirt, tell me that horses need about a 1" long fiber for proper gut function, hence the reason they prefer CUBES over straight pellets. I'm a MAJOR worrywart about choke so EVERYTHING my horses get is soaked (except the hay). Never had a choke here (knock wood), but I don't want one either and I do have an older horse with hardly any teeth left. I'm NOT soaking any feed for the goats. Choke doesn't seem to be a major concern with goats????


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## Jillis (Sep 11, 2005)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> Can goats do well being fed only alfalfa hay?
> ..............
> 
> With good alfalfa hay that you can keep the high percentage of protien and good amounts of E in with good low humidity storage (frozen is even better) all winter, alfalfa hay is the perfect feed. You would need little in the way of grain, some carbs, some fat, to add to a milking does diet. Certainly it would grow kids out wonderfully! Lucky you.
> ...



So Vicki, you are saying, if you give each goat about 3 lbs of alfalfa pellets a day, (or a feeding?) you only need to supplement a bit of grass hay and let the goats browse?

Thanks!


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

For my goats yes. 3 pounds of alfalfa pellets per day. Kids eat less, bucks get that exactly, and the milkers get 40 pounds devided between the 13 of them there is always some left in the morning.

The gal who this program was started by feeds no hay, her goats are dry lotted and she has feeders that hold tons of alfalfa pellets that are filled by the mills trucks. She doesn't contend with our humidity which would mold the pellets here.

If I was running a commercial dairy again, my goats would be drylotted (no worming after the initial wormng and killing of the pastures) and I would feed free choice alfalfa pellets and no grain, no hay and my minerals.

If I wanted a show string still I would keep them in a seperate stall on my program now. Vicki


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## ONThorsegirl (Apr 2, 2005)

I have a question... is the alfalfa pellets not very expensive??? or a very expensive substitute for hay?? Why not grass hay and up the protein with such things as soybean, barley or oats etc.??? and up the fat with some corn? 

Sorry I only have a couple goats, and we breed sheep and Cattle. 

Alfalfa pellets for 50 pounds is like $15.00, and a 50lb bale of feed here is $2.50. Something doesn't seem right?? If the goats were fed a good grass hay(very little waste, and no picking out the leaves, its all good and edible, as long as its cut right), and feed a ration of corn, barley and soybean meal you would be getitng your fat, protein and roughage??? Right or Wrong??

I'm in my second year at College getting my Agriculture Diploma, unless Goats are very different from other types of livestock, or people are making lots of money on Goats, I couldn't justify feeding 3 pounds, or free choice alfalfa pellets!! 


Correct me if I'm wrong, 

Melissa


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Alfalfa pellets are $7.95 per 50 pounds.

Alfalfa hay $25 for a 75 pound bale, or $9 today for a 40 pound bale. About 1/4th to 1/3rd of the bale is wasted.

I am talking about dairy goats who need calcium. Getting your protein and calcium from alfalfa is perfect. Getting your protein from soy and fiber from grass hay leaves a dairy goat defficient in calcium. Relying on grain for your basic nutrients gives you low production and fat goats who have kidding/breeding difficulties. With mineral defficencies you can't rely on calcium carbonate or sorbate to be absorbed in adquate levels to not use alfalfa. 

I am 50, I don't want to find, load, haul, unload, stack, worry about, feed and then pitch fork up and compost 1/4 of a bale of high dollar hay. Add to this we have no freezes in the winter, high humidity, what is the keeping quality of this alfalfa come spring when I am milking and growing out kids, zilch. Vicki


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## pookshollow (Aug 22, 2005)

> Alfalfa pellets for 50 pounds is like $15.00, and a 50lb bale of feed here is $2.50.


ONThorsegirl - we're lucky up here that we can get good alfalfa hay. Down in the humid Southern states, they're not so lucky, and some areas have had severe drought the last few years. I knew a fellow a few years ago whose daughter took her horse to Florida for the winter. It was cheaper for him to load up his 3-horse trailer with hay and drive to Florida than it was for him to buy the hay down there!


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## ONThorsegirl (Apr 2, 2005)

ok I understand, I guess we just take some things for granted, and alfalfa pellets come from the states where alfalfa doesn't grow great, causing the price to be so much different.

Sorry Guys,


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## pookshollow (Aug 22, 2005)

> I guess we just take some things for granted


Yes, and isn't it _nice_?!? :dance:


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Whats in a sack of $2.50 feed? Most alfalfa in the states are for dairy cattle and horses, why there are cubes, chopped, alfamo and alfalfa pellets gallore down here. Do love Canada though have spent alot of my childhood 'vacationing' there! Vicki


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

No hay here. Daylight hours spent browsing, even in winter there will be grub that goats will eat (If I can convince the girls the snow won't swallow them). Each doe, depending on size, gets 2-3 lbs of alf pellets per day and minerals, copper bolus because we use sheep minerals (goats run with the sheep during the day). Don't plan to buy any hay at all. I'll be bedding with wheat straw I get for free. Pregnant does will go on gradual build up of feed pellets (general livestock) 6 weeks before kidding.

They haven't had hay since last March, and they've never looked better.

Alfalfa Pellets - $7 per 50 lbs by the bag or bulk. 
Milled at this feed store, not crap, good pellets. 
Venell Feed - Corvallis Oregon
http://www.venellfeed.com/index.php?mid=products I may go to the Horse 14 (alfalfa and oats) later in the winter.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> For my goats yes. 3 pounds of alfalfa pellets per day. Kids eat less, bucks get that exactly, and the milkers get 40 pounds devided between the 13 of them there is always some left in the morning.
> 
> The gal who this program was started by feeds no hay, her goats are dry lotted and she has feeders that hold tons of alfalfa pellets that are filled by the mills trucks. She doesn't contend with our humidity which would mold the pellets here.
> 
> ...


do you feed no grain at all? could you feed no grain, and only alfalfa pellets to lactating goats, plus pasture and hay and they would do well?

also, what brand of pellets do you get for 8$ a bag? where I am it is more like 13-15$ a bag.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

It's where you live. I prefer Evan's over any other brand out here...well if I had more money than sense I would feed Bert And Wetta brand from Kansas. Mine is 100% dehydrated alfalfa, 17%. That's it nothing else.

I have problems with my does at the end of pregnancy with no energy from grain...I feed oats. But then my bloodline is filled with high multiples. Yes you can feed alfalfa, minerals especially if it was a lick or block that had some fat and energy in it, and no grain as long as the alfalfa is high quality and stays that way during storage. Vicki


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

DocM said:


> No hay here. Daylight hours spent browsing, even in winter there will be grub that goats will eat (If I can convince the girls the snow won't swallow them). Each doe, depending on size, gets 2-3 lbs of alf pellets per day and minerals, copper bolus because we use sheep minerals (goats run with the sheep during the day). Don't plan to buy any hay at all. I'll be bedding with wheat straw I get for free. Pregnant does will go on gradual build up of feed pellets (general livestock) 6 weeks before kidding.
> 
> They haven't had hay since last March, and they've never looked better.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link Doc! That feed store is less than an hour away from me. 

Anything in particular about the Horse Special 14 is causing you to think about switching?


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> Alfalfa pellets are $7.95 per 50 pounds.


They are running anywhere from $11.00 - $13.00 here for 50 lbs.


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

Wags said:


> Thanks for the link Doc! That feed store is less than an hour away from me.
> 
> Anything in particular about the Horse Special 14 is causing you to think about switching?


The horse special 14 are the same alfalfa pellets milled with oats. Some of my girls are getting up there in age and these might keep them in better condition through the winter. I'll just keep an eye out for now. 

News flash - my girls somehow locked themselves out of the barn and had to use pasture trees for shelter during a bad downpour. I'm happy to say that not one of them melted.


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## Keeperofmanya (Oct 3, 2007)

So Vickie or any one else. Could you help a newbie here and explain to me how I would go about switching my goats from the feed they are getting to just pellets. Right now they are getting 1/4 cup horse feed with molasses,1/4 cup barley,and a sprinkle of black oil sun flower seeds.Then I sprinkle on some kelp. They have this twice a day plus the hay mangers are always full and they waste over half of that. My goats consist of a two year old Mini Nubian buck, an 8 month old and 7 month old Nubian doelings,and 2 Sannan bucks which belong to a friend ages 8 months and 4 months and I am getting a milking doe Sannan/Nubian cross from my friend in a week which she tells me has gone way down in her milk production. The cost for alfalfa pellets here are 15 dollars a 25 kg.( almost 50 lbs I guess) and my hay cost me 3 dollars a bale and I use 4 bales of hay a week. My mare & foal feed is 17 dollars for 25 kg. Cracked Barley is 16 dollars for 40 kg. They get cattle mineral free choice also. It would be nice to be able to feed a lot simpler meal at feed time.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Other than the sweet feed part, your diet is fine for growing kids, growing and pregnant kids (my kids are bred at 8 months to kid at 13 months) and what you are feeding is fine for milkers as they are 100 days pregnant and slowly uping that amount to about 1pound am and 1 pound pm as they start milking. Then upping or lowering the amount on the milkstand or twice aday if they nurse, tokeep them in reasonable shape. Really good alfalfa hay and the grain is minimal. Breed leader type amounts of milk the grain amounts can be much much higher. Is your $3 hay alfalfa? Most does on alfalfa hay will balk at alfalfa pellets, so I just started putting them out, and just like alfalfa hay, my pellets are fed in thebarn. Large bunker feeders line the milkroom wall, the girls put their head through thewall and eat their 3 pounds of alfalfa pellets out of these feeders I fill from my side. The milkstand here is for grain.

The first change I would make would be to turn the sweet horse feed into dry horse feed. Or if possible just good clean whole oats. 

If you are feeding alfalfa hay, just put out enough pellets for the goats to eat in about 15 minutes, increase this amount every several days until they are up to about 3 pounds each. If this is grass hay than move even slower than this since your goats are not used to the protein in this new diet. I couldn't move to them eating alfalfa pellets until the last of the alfalfa hay was gone.

Honestly...if you are feeding decent alfalfa for $3 a bale, Iwouldn't move to that expensive of alfalfa pellets!

Your diet is totally inadequate in protein if this is grass hay for growing kids, and especially your bucks. Bucks not fed calcium rich alfalfa while on grain will get urinary calculi, either buy ammonium chloride and feed each buck 1 teaspoon per day mixed in that grain, or take away that grain.

Spend as much time over your loose minerals as you do thinking about grain. Especially since in this diet the only minerals they are getting is in the sweet feed.

With really good alfalfa hay you don't need to feed grain to growing kids, same with alfalfa pellets. I do grain my kids here because I want them bred and in milk by 13 months. Vicki


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## Keeperofmanya (Oct 3, 2007)

Thanks Vickie for the information. The hay I am feeding is not alfalfa hay. It is a good green second cut flat hay with a nice fresh smell. No heads or weeds or anything else in it. Hard to find a good hay they like. All about around here is timothy for horses and cattle. They refuse to even touch that. That is why I was wondering about the pelllets even though they are on the expensive side. I worry that they don't get enough roughage. We do bring them brush and stuff like that when we can get it. Thanks again for the information.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

They get plenty of roughage from hay, they can get all their roughage from alfalfa pellets. Stem length has nothing to do with roughage, nor does plants they only eat the leaves and fine stems off of and thier hay. Vicki


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Anyone have an idea how much an adult Nigerian doe should be getting in pellets? I know it would be less than a Nubian, but I can't seem to find any info on how much less.


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## Ann Mary (Nov 29, 2004)

I have been reading this thread with interest but not too much has been said about alfalfa for the boys....so, I have 3 pygmy cross wethers, 2 babies and 1 older guy....and I'm wondering how much alfalfa hay I can give them safely without worrying about those calcium problems in the bladder? Thanks!


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

Wags - at their prior owner's farm, my does were getting free choice alfie pellets that were between 8% and 12% protein (toward the lower end I think). I don't know how much they were actually eating but they never wanted for more-always some left in the pan at all times. 

When I brought them over I found it took a total of about 2 pounds a day to keep pellets in front of the two all day.

Now I have alfie hay that is 20%+ protein and they are leaving the pellets alone (as expected), preferring the hay. They're eating about 3 pounds of alfie a day now, combined, with about 3 pounds of timothy and brome hay still being mixed in for the transition.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Thanks! So about a pound per adult - that was what I was figuring. I have 1 adult and 3 little ones, so I would probably be safe figuring 2 lbs a day, since the protien is supposed to be not less than 15% in the pellets Doc was talking about, and my ladies have a pretty good sized pasture to browse in.


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## Ann Mary (Nov 29, 2004)

Anyone out there...please answer about the whethers...thanks!


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

Sorry, no experience with wethers yet, but here's a bump for you and I'll add to that - what about the bucks? 

Wags - just to be clear, my 2 does are lactating NDs.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

From what I've read the calcium/phosphorus ratio can be more than 2:1 by several times but not less. It's the phosphorus that makes the stones not the calcium.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Exactly what fish said. Everything contains phosphrous, grain, grass hay, minerals. But nothing contains much calcium, so most bucks diets are high in phos...which is what leads to problems. My bucks eat alfalfa pellets everyday, same 3 pounds each, everyday. Grass hay in their stall is a given, and they eat in the woods, alot. They rarely touch their minerals so they are copper bolused. After rut they will go on the meat goat pellet they were grown out on as bucklings that contains ammonium chloride, until they are back to their fat and sassy selves.

Sorry I don't do wethers. Vicki


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

Interesting. In horses, the vets (back in the 1980s) always said the stones came from the EXCESS CA in the alfie hay and advocated for NOT feeding straight alfie to a HORSE. Yes, it CAN be fed to horses (and I did it for YEARS before I was able to get good grass hay for the horses) but goats are different, goats are dairy animals, and alfie is a dairy feed for many reasons.


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## TheBiscuitQueen (Aug 31, 2007)

> I'm in my second year at College getting my Agriculture Diploma, unless Goats are very different from other types of livestock, or people are making lots of money on Goats, I couldn't justify feeding 3 pounds, or free choice alfalfa pellets!!



Hey ONThorsegirl-same here! What are you planning on doing with your degree?


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Are alfalfa pellets and alfalfa cubes the same thing, except in different form?

A 50# bag of pellets costs 13$, but a 50$ of cubes only costs $9.50.
I just dont think my goats could eat the cubes, too big.. so why the price difference?


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

It depends on the manufacturer but in general, cubes are long fibers and pellets are processed with binders - very, very short fibers (if any). The cost difference could be supply/demand, or it could be the cost of the added raw materials, maybe even the cost of the equipment needed to process them. Not sure. :shrug:


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