# Cow vs. goat and why can't I just have my way!?



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Several folks I know keep goats for milk and while I like goats' milk I really want a dairy cow. We are past the research phase, on to planning, but I feel like most people think I am stupid. I am not one to bow to public opinion but have I lost it? We are about to have 4 kids, who drink copius amount of milk. We love butter and cheese and sour cream, not to mention ice cream and beef. So I figure a dairy cow is one stop shopping not to mention free soil ammendment!! We do not have the finances to have dairy animals and still buy butter and other cream products and our beef on top of that. Still, I keep on hearing that keeping a cow is like having 10 goats. Really? Because when I read "Keeping a Family Cow" it seemed do-able. 

Please, correct me if I am wrong. Animals are real commitments to us and I am trying to make the best decision here.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

What is your question?


----------



## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

A cow will eat an amount dependent upon it's weight. This is how you determine the stocking rate for your acreage. Goats are figured the same way, using the same formulas. So you can look at the weight of the cow and the weight of the goat and figure how many goats a single cow will replace.

Holstein cows are huge. They can easiky weigh 10 times as much as a goat. So in that case, your friend was right.

A Jersey cow will weigh less, maybe 750-800#.

A Dexter cow will weigh even less, maybe 500-700#.

To balance out the equation is the desire to drink cow's milk instead of goat's milk that a lot of people have, and the beef that you can get from cattle. Goat's meat is definitely different. Beef is the standard of excellence. "It's what's for dinner!"

So, if a cow costs a little more to keep than a half-dozen goats, people are willing to pay it.

I keep both, and if I was told that one or the other would have to go, I could only keep one or the other, I wouldn't even blink. The goats would go.

I'm not all that fond of goat meat. I'm a beefaholic. Dexter milk also tastes better than goat milk, makes great cheese, and BUTTER. I think that butter is one of the staples of life.


----------



## Menglish (May 7, 2009)

Yes cows eat more. But they give more back. Also goats are notoriously hard to keep where you want them. I know from experience they are far more difficult to keep in a pasture than Dexter cattle. I've owned both. Got rid of the goats to get the Dexters. In my opinion it was one of the smarter changes I've made for my farm. 

Now that doesn't mean I have a problem with those who like to keep goats. Just my preference.


----------



## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

So Hollie, how come you didnt post this in the goat forum too??:bandwagon:
I have almost no experience with cattle. But we have room for goats.
Ours are mostly for meat.
A decent milker can give you a gallon a day. But the amount of cream is not going to come anywhere near to cow.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Goat Servant said:


> So Hollie, how come you didnt post this in the goat forum too??:bandwagon:
> I have almost no experience with cattle. But we have room for goats.
> Ours are mostly for meat.
> A decent milker can give you a gallon a day. But the amount of cream is not going to come anywhere near to cow.


Sorry, I love goats, I just really want a cow!!!



Menglish said:


> Yes cows eat more. But they give more back. Also goats are notoriously hard to keep where you want them. I know from experience they are far more difficult to keep in a pasture than Dexter cattle. I've owned both. Got rid of the goats to get the Dexters. In my opinion it was one of the smarter changes I've made for my farm.
> 
> Now that doesn't mean I have a problem with those who like to keep goats. Just my preference.


Containment was another huge concern because we are not planning on doing intensive fencing and my friends have had goats get out several times.



genebo said:


> A cow will eat an amount dependent upon it's weight. This is how you determine the stocking rate for your acreage. Goats are figured the same way, using the same formulas. So you can look at the weight of the cow and the weight of the goat and figure how many goats a single cow will replace.
> 
> Holstein cows are huge. They can easiky weigh 10 times as much as a goat. So in that case, your friend was right.
> 
> ...


Yes!!! Butter and beef!

Let me clarify, I love goat milk. I have heard many people say that it has a bad taste or other polarizing things, but I have never had a bad experience. My kids love it and I adore goat cheese. I have eaten curry goat on several occasions and thought it was very yummy. I know that socialized goats are sweet and friendly and loads of fun to watch so it is not about the animal itself either. 

I have just been getting conflicting information, so since my community is not really teeming with families that have a cow or two, I thought I would come here. I have read a ton and researched the numbers but we all know real experience beats that any day. Of course a cow is larger but I thought that the payoff would be not having to go to the store for any dairy. That and 10-1, that is the ratio? I thought it was more 2 or 3 to one? Also, I know that goat milk is naturally homogenized so...I need butter. Not an option. I am a big baker. I just wanted to check and see if the numbers we were working off of were that off. 

Sorry my question was not clear. Can I reasonably expect to care for a cow with a good acre of pasture and 1-1 1/2 tons of hay? Or should I be thinking that for a Jersey or Dexter (we are looking at smaller cows) that I will need more? I do not have more pasture available at the moment, but it may open up to two acres and we would want to keep the cow and her calf. I just want to hear the real deal from people who know. We are planning and I am a worry wart. I would hate to jump into this without getting someone else's opinion


----------



## Dusky Beauty (Jan 4, 2012)

I have 3 dexters (well, 2 and one belmont) and two calves out of them, and nigerian dwarf goaties. 

Honestly.... I like them both. Each have their strong points. I like the strong silent and simple affection of cows-- and I like the impish antics of goats. 

Here is the cruxt with cows though--- you NEED pasture to make them thrifty. I only have a couple acres and feed hay until my front acre is planted. 
I am selling my least favorite cow once she's bred and the heifer I am weaning to keep my feed costs down. 
If cream is what you want, you need a jersey, guernsey or brown swiss to get a really good cream line. High production dairy cows need more feed to make all that milk, if you go middle of the road on a dexter or belmont (dexter/jersey hybrid) you're looking at more economy in your beef, but less milk (half gallon to 2 gallons daily topped out depending on feed and animal) Also the cream is difficult to separate naturally on dex milk. I'm finding myself needing an electric seperater... Frankly once I have that there's really nothing stopping me from making butter from my nigie goat milk too.

If push came to shove in terms of catastrophe--- We *might* keep one of the cows as a luxury, but I'd put more dependency on my goats. They forage what grows here more easily and can be bred to produce close to or as much as some dexters. The main advantage to goats is the production cycle is shorter than a cow--- faster growth, shorter gestation, and multiple births. 

Everybody loves beef and cream but bovine gestation is a painfully long 9 month wait. A heifer isn't ready to breed till she's a year and a half... a steer isn't really "finished" until he's around 2... 

Bottom line: I don't think one animal is better than the other. They both have distinct advantages. If possible it's nice to have both so each species can compliment each other, but you don't "need" goats if you have a good cow or two. And you don't "need" a cow if you've got a small herd of dairy does. 
The tie breaker should be whichever animal you prefer to be in the company of for extended periods of time. Milking by hand is very time consuming work.

As far as popular opinion goes? You're in good company of people who like and keep "both". I doubt the esteem for your name among anyone who matters would fall if you got a cow  
Besides... a different dairy species is great for staggering milk production and birthing season during the calendar year.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

I jokingly titled this post the way that I did because I feel like the desire to have a dairy animal has come down to an emotional choice. Either way, goats or cow, there are benefits and hard work. I guess I will just have to take the leap. I was apprehensive that the goal of having fresh milk could actually work out in relationship to the cost of caring for a cow. 
I love the idea of dairy independance and I just need to put my big girl pants on and make a choice.


----------



## Dusky Beauty (Jan 4, 2012)

holliehmstd said:


> I jokingly titled this post the way that I did because I feel like the desire to have a dairy animal has come down to an emotional choice. Either way, goats or cow, there are benefits and hard work. I guess I will just have to take the leap. I was apprehensive that the goal of having fresh milk could actually work out in relationship to the cost of caring for a cow.
> I love the idea of dairy independance and I just need to put my big girl pants on and make a choice.


If you've got pastureland with decent grass, you are perfectly situated for a cow (In a perfect world a cow with her heifer calf.. and bred again.) In enable-speak, you have no reason NOT to get one. Look at you... wasting all that grass that could be milk right now. 

If you do decide you want goats too, nigerian dwarves are purported to have highest butterfat -- don't need a big space and mine aren't tough on fences. 

Your land and facilities is what makes one more advantageous than another. I don't buy the "all or nothing" elitism of the species. :cowboy:


----------



## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

I have loved having a cow more than any other animal on our farm ... and the amount of soiled bedding/manure that a single cow creates is rather enormous. Given the opportunity I'd have a cow again in a heart beat.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Dusky Beauty said:


> If you've got pastureland with decent grass, you are perfectly situated for a cow (In a perfect world a cow with her heifer calf.. and bred again.) In enable-speak, you have no reason NOT to get one. Look at you... wasting all that grass that could be milk right now.
> 
> If you do decide you want goats too, nigerian dwarves are purported to have highest butterfat -- don't need a big space and mine aren't tough on fences.
> 
> Your land and facilities is what makes one more advantageous than another. I don't buy the "all or nothing" elitism of the species. :cowboy:


I love a good enabler. Thank you! Really though, my mom grew up on a farm with mainly pigs and goats so I can't ask her. When I was little, we knew a family with a cow and I fell in love then. But it seems to be a lost passion in my area and everyone has goats so I am on my own here and just need a friendly voice to let me learn from their experience - something we all value the older we get! I would actually like to have goats one day as well, but for right now it is an "either/or" situation.

Hubby says go ahead so I guess I should run with it before he changes his mind!


----------



## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

An acre of land is really not very much for even a single cow.
They can really impact their terrain if left in one spot year around. 
I almost gaurantee you will be wanting more than a single acre for a cow/calf pair. 

Also, have you ever closely handled any large livestock before?
Have you milked a cow? They can be intimidating at first.
They can break bones with a single kick, for example.
That is not said to scare you, just the facts of training a cow to be milked. 
Mostly they are very docile, but not 100%.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

cathleenc said:


> I have loved having a cow more than any other animal on our farm ... and the amount of soiled bedding/manure that a single cow creates is rather enormous. Given the opportunity I'd have a cow again in a heart beat.


That is awesome! :cow:


----------



## nosqrls (Jun 9, 2012)

Remember the smaller the cow the less wear and tear on your pasture from traffic. If you want beef and dairy dexters may be the way to go. And they forage better. The best foragers (my opinion) are Highlands they don't produce much milk but it is higher in fat. Highlands are also about as mellow as they come. They are kept with horses and goats to protect them from predators. Some people even cross dexters and highlands. Small and long hair. Small means more animals per acre.Long hair means less food to stay warm, and less fat to stay warm and less fat waste when it comes time to butcher. Better pasture means more animals per acre and less added feed for milk production. (alfalfa, winter wheat, wheat, oats on stalk, soybean silage all can all be baled for winter feeding to. If you have winter wheat to feed that means higher milk yield. (on a side note) I know what what it is like to have a dog kill livestock. We had 2 killing our ducks one day caught them inside my pasture with a duck shot them both. The owner said he was going to make me pay 400$ ea. for his hunting dogs. Sheriff said no they where inside my fence killing livestock justified then said I could sue him for loss of livestock and for having to kill the dogs. That torque him right off. Then he said hell I would of paid for the ducks. No more hunting dogs running loose around here and if they do they have collars. As you can tell I read your blog.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

gone-a-milkin said:


> An acre of land is really not very much for even a single cow.
> They can really impact their terrain if left in one spot year around.
> I almost gaurantee you will be wanting more than a single acre for a cow/calf pair.
> 
> ...


Right now it is farmed out so I can open it up between plantings in the spring/summer. I am a total large livestock newbie. I have been around cows, horses, goats in limited quanities but this is completely new for me. I am not scared of large animals, and I know there are risks as animals can be unpredictable. However, there is no replacement for experience. I just don't have access to it. I would either have to buy a cow, or nothing. I do not want to buy a young heifer. I want an 3/4 (maybe a little older?) yr old cow. I do have to be careful b/c all my lo's are little. So that is a concern but I am not sure how to get around that hurdle other than jumping in.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Let me just say - thank you everyone for the replies! I am so happy to finally be talking to folks in the know about cows and this is great!!!



nosqrls said:


> Remember the smaller the cow the less wear and tear on your pasture from traffic. If you want beef and dairy dexters may be the way to go. And they forage better. The best foragers (my opinion) are Highlands they don't produce much milk but it is higher in fat. Highlands are also about as mellow as they come. They are kept with horses and goats to protect them from predators. Some people even cross dexters and highlands. Small and long hair. Small means more animals per acre.Long hair means less food to stay warm, and less fat to stay warm and less fat waste when it comes time to butcher. Better pasture means more animals per acre and less added feed for milk production. (alfalfa, winter wheat, wheat, oats on stalk, soybean silage all can all be baled for winter feeding to. If you have winter wheat to feed that means higher milk yield. (on a side note) I know what what it is like to have a dog kill livestock. We had 2 killing our ducks one day caught them inside my pasture with a duck shot them both. The owner said he was going to make me pay 400$ ea. for his hunting dogs. Sheriff said no they where inside my fence killing livestock justified then said I could sue him for loss of livestock and for having to kill the dogs. That torque him right off. Then he said hell I would of paid for the ducks. No more hunting dogs running loose around here and if they do they have collars. As you can tell I read your blog.


Hey, my boring blog! I keep it to prove to myself we really are living this life I have wanted for so long! Thanks. And the dog issue way horrendous. Thank goodness for good sheriffs though! On the plus side - although some city folks would probably be horrified to hear me say this - my kids have been exposed to this and handled it REALLY well. They were so good about it and are just looking forward to the next round of chicks. And my sweet little girl said we better kill a dog if another one comes but we should get our own LGDs so that they can keep the dog off the property before it does anything bad. She is learning the value of livestock and respect for life all at the same time!! Love that girl!

I am so commited to this dairy experience that I am willing to hear anyone out just to learn. I have not researched Highlands and I have been pretty set on a Jersey with Dexters on reserve. Because I am new to this I heard that both are good mothers and generally calve well so that was something I was also interested in.


----------



## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

You sound very stubbornly dedicated to this cow plan.
That may very well be just the attitude it takes. :teehee:

Good luck in your purchase. 
Really do your research and dont just fall for the first animal that you see.


----------



## Dusky Beauty (Jan 4, 2012)

I have not owned a jersey, but I can speak for my dexters and they are pretty much ***** cats. 

The cow i started milking about 2 months ago kicked a little bit the first couple of times, but once she realized she was getting an oh-so-comfy udder massage and extra food she got real into being a milk cow really fast. She'd been milked ONCE by hand by the previous owner but they lost interest because she didn't stand stock still and they breed mini dairy goats and didn't need her to be a milker. 
In 2 weeks she was docile enough for dd to sit on the ground in front of my milk stool to practice milking right at the cow's feet.
She stepped on my foot once on accident... I hardly noticed. Now she is so into her role I don't even have to catch her to lead her to her milk pen. She watches for me, comes to the gate, walks out on her own and into the pen and I shut gates behind her. 

My jersey/dexter mix WAS a sweety pocket cow until she came into milk. She kicks constantly everytime I try to milk her udders out for her own comfort. Now-- her kicks are easy to avoid and she's not kicking very hard, but I still don't enjoy a hind foot swinging around, and I am very mindful of where that foot is going since I am pregnant myself and being extra cautious. Today was the first time I got any decent quantity of milk into the bucket from her and I am almost positive she kicked the bucket when I was almost done on purpose just to be a snit. 
She gives 2 or 3 times more than my full dexter though and has much better openings-- the milk is a lot yellower and thicker but that might have a lot to do with her being fresh and the older cow being 5 months into her lactation. 
Hoping to God she mellows out as her hormones relax. 

I think the main difference though is that the belmont was bred by a breeder focusing on quality milk production, and the dexter was just your average pasture ornament +beef breeding machine until I got my hands on her.

Anyway, docility seems to come in small packages. If your heart is set on jersey, lean towards mini. Dexters or a dexter/jersey cross is a good alternative, But dexters need really good milk genes to be a decent producing milk cow in excess of half a gallon-1 gallon a day + milk sharing with calf.

If you're buying a milk cow--- buy it from someone using them as milk cows (not just mini beef) so you have some idea of how the cow will perform.


----------



## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Odds are you wont get up in the morning one day to find a cow standing on top of your car........


----------



## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

Some points to consider with a cow, even a small one:

Check the zoning where you live before you get any livestock.
One acre will be bare in a short time; you'll probably need to supplement with hay year-round. Figure about 3% of body weight per day.
Square bales will need to be kept under a roof, not a tarp.
Manure management
Will there be adequate shade and water in this lot?
A solitary animal is not a happy one; they need companionship (cow-cow, goat-goat is best).
Breeding arrangements for a cow are not always easy.
Do you have a large animal vet available?


----------



## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I always make pro and con lists - then do what I want. With a cow - you will have one. If she gets mastitis then you will have no milk for that amount of time. Having several goats will cover your milk needs year round. If one gets ill, you will still have milk. 

With goats, it's easier to keep them bred than with a cow. You will need access to an AI person or a neighbor with a bull. One cow is hard to catch in heat, so plan on the AI guy visiting several times or the $$ for the shots.

Your cow will need a buddy. So you need to count on 2 cows or her calf though the calf will not be there all the time or you will have 3 bovines around for a time. 

Cow manure has to be cleaned up. Goat manure spreads itself out.

That said, I'd pick cow!


----------



## happydog (May 7, 2008)

oops, wrong thread


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

gone-a-milkin said:


> You sound very stubbornly dedicated to this cow plan.
> That may very well be just the attitude it takes. :teehee:
> 
> Good luck in your purchase.
> Really do your research and dont just fall for the first animal that you see.


I have never been accused of being weak-willed! I am all about planning. And everyone on here is helping so much. I will definately remember not to fall in love with the first cow that I see...hard as it may be!


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Shygal said:


> Odds are you wont get up in the morning one day to find a cow standing on top of your car........


:hysterical:This gave me such a good laugh!


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Dusky Beauty said:


> Anyway, docility seems to come in small packages. If your heart is set on jersey, lean towards mini. Dexters or a dexter/jersey cross is a good alternative, But dexters need really good milk genes to be a decent producing milk cow in excess of half a gallon-1 gallon a day + milk sharing with calf.
> 
> If you're buying a milk cow--- buy it from someone using them as milk cows (not just mini beef) so you have some idea of how the cow will perform.


Thanks for this post. Gave me something to think about. I said in an earlier post that we have little ones so cow temperment is a concern to me. I would like beef, but my main interest is dairy, still, I am concerned about getting a "production" animal as that is not what I am going for. We are looking for a family cow. And like I said, we are not in a strong community of family milkers. I have known folks who had a cow and goats and gave up on the cow and kept the goats so maybe there will be someone who has a sweet cow that just has one to many or is looking to move or whatever else. Once I get the structure built, we are on the hunt.

I have really only seen one place that does mini-Jerseys in NY I think. I can't remember the name, I have to look them up again. However, I am sure they are probably out of my price range!!


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

G. Seddon said:


> Some points to consider with a cow, even a small one:


Yeah, we are zoned A-1 so that is good. And I was planning on year-round hay. We have an outbuilding that is rickety but currently houses a tractor and bush-hogger so we can store hay there. Manure sort of scares me. I have seen goat pebbles and you can't beat compressed poop. Water and shade are accounted for and there are large vets in the area. 

However...breeding and companionship are still sort of funky. I have read that some folks with mini-Jerseys keep a breeding pair and that takes care of companionship and breeding but I am not sure about it. There is a guy that advertises on craigslist for NC and VA AI all the time so I think that he gets a lot of work, but cost is a concern there. Still working out the kinks on that.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Callieslamb said:


> I always make pro and con lists - then do what I want. With a cow - you will have one. If she gets mastitis then you will have no milk for that amount of time. Having several goats will cover your milk needs year round. If one gets ill, you will still have milk.
> 
> With goats, it's easier to keep them bred than with a cow. You will need access to an AI person or a neighbor with a bull. One cow is hard to catch in heat, so plan on the AI guy visiting several times or the $$ for the shots.
> 
> ...


Um....I think I like you! Laid out all the cons for me and still co-sign on the cow! Too bad I am preggers, I need a stiff drink.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Happydog - sounds like it has really worked out for you! I am glad that you have such a good experience. Owning animals/livestock is not cut and dry, but is is always an adventure. 

I am still leaning "cow" but I just know that when we finish the coop and pig fencing, we are moving on to dairy prep and I only have a little longer before I have to really commit and then I will just have to go all in. Seems like most folks who have cows love them so all the responsibilities aside, they wouldn't turn back.


----------



## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

I'm sorry? Are you raising this animal to provide milk and meat for your friends and neighbors? Why are you letting them tell you what your family should be getting to eat and drink?

If you like cow's milk and beef, then get a cow. Leave the goats to people who want a goat. It's really none of their business which milk you prefer to drink.


----------



## Rosepath (Feb 18, 2011)

A nice mid-sized Jersey can't be beat, in my experience, and my cows have been some of my best friends. Milking time was a great way to have a few moments of peace and quiet, unless the hens and cats started squabling over who got to 
stand watch for spills. (hand-milking is my preferred method)
And if you find one who is on her second or third lactation, she knows the ropes. Have fun, you will not regret the wonderful milk, cream, butter, did I mention milkshakes with real cream? Of course the cows we've had were the result of
prayer - asking for the right cow to come to my notice via ads or word of mouth
has paid off. Look on www.family.cow.proboards for lots of great info and a good network of like-minded folks.
PS - had diary goats too, they're fine, but I wuvvv my cow best.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

oregon woodsmok said:


> I'm sorry? Are you raising this animal to provide milk and meat for your friends and neighbors? Why are you letting them tell you what your family should be getting to eat and drink?
> 
> If you like cow's milk and beef, then get a cow. Leave the goats to people who want a goat. It's really none of their business which milk you prefer to drink.


You are feeling spicy today, huh!  It's not that I am dismissing my own feelings or research. I just think that it is important to listen and digest advice from those more experienced. I WANT A COW! I said it. But I also do not want to bite off more than I can chew. We are a one-income household, hubby does the day job, I do the house job! And we are about to have our 4th surprise addition to our own little herd. So I am just trying to be cautious and not allow my emotions re:real food (and obviously butter!) override practicality. That said, I am thinking more and more that a cow, for our family is what I thought it to be all along, the right choice for us. 


Rosepath said:


> A nice mid-sized Jersey can't be beat, in my experience, and my cows have been some of my best friends. Milking time was a great way to have a few moments of peace and quiet, unless the hens and cats started squabling over who got to
> stand watch for spills. (hand-milking is my preferred method)
> And if you find one who is on her second or third lactation, she knows the ropes. Have fun, you will not regret the wonderful milk, cream, butter, did I mention milkshakes with real cream? Of course the cows we've had were the result of
> prayer - asking for the right cow to come to my notice via ads or word of mouth
> ...


Thanks for that! I am looking forward to hand-milking. There is a lot to be said for strong forearms!! And trust me, I am praying about this. The list of cancer in my family has gotten longer and longer with each passing year. My own father died @ 50, my mother was just diagnosed, I am at risk. Real food from home is about more than just practical thinking or supermarket snobbery, I am trying to make sure that we are putting as little poison in our bodies as possible and this is just bringing is one step closer!

Thanks everyone for being so encouraging and funny! I feels good to be reassured that wanting a cow is not an unrealistic goal.


----------



## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

When I read this, I went back to check your first post. I think four children are going to drink a whole lot more than your average Dexter can provide.

You will need to manage your 1 acre and resources for keeping a cow very carefully.

If you do end up with a cow, no matter what breed, please, please, please spend time with her beforehand to make sure you and the cow are a good match.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

G. Seddon said:


> When I read this, I went back to check your first post. I think four children are going to drink a whole lot more than your average Dexter can provide.
> 
> You will need to manage your 1 acre and resources for keeping a cow very carefully.
> 
> If you do end up with a cow, no matter what breed, please, please, please spend time with her beforehand to make sure you and the cow are a good match.


I really think Jersey is the way to go for us. I am convinced we are going to move forward with a cow. Just have to find someone here local that I can purchase from so I can spend some time with the cow beforehand like you said. 

Followed Rosepath's advice and went to the Keeping a Family Cow boards and doing some additional research. Hoping between here and there I can find someone close-ish to me.


----------



## Dusky Beauty (Jan 4, 2012)

hollie, Since you have little ones I DO NOT recommend keeping a breeding pair. Even the sweetest bestest bull calves grow up and once that testosterone gets pumping it owns him. A "nice" bull doesn't try to kill you. But he still will run over you to get at a cow or a pile of hay. They are big and strong and don't know their own strength. I've yet to hear anyone talk of how they pony their pet bull along on a halter. (Except for the guy who sells semen off of his bulls on his slightly dubious website.)
Plus, you're feeding an animal 365 days a year when you need him to "work" for a day or two tops. 
Owning bulls is for people that have several cows that need servicing and the best fences on earth. 

I also recommend the keeping a family cow board. Once you've been posting for a bit the auction barn thread opens up and it's a really good place to cow shop for what you need. Lots of backyard milkers downsizing and people who know people. 

Something I thought I'd bring up about my dexters... they only make the "cow pie" type poops when they have been eating too rich of alfalfa, their hay gets wet while they eat in a rainstorm or they're sick. I usually get dense little black turds. 
If you can run chickens or something in the pasture the poultry will bust up and spread the manure to get at bugs/grains. Icky maybe, but effective. 

If you're not finding any small jersey breeders you can check the dexter registry page of breeders (look for dairy specific breeding programs) or try searching for "belmont" or "belfair" or "Irish jersey" breeders. The latter 3 are all different names for the jersey/dex hybrid breed. You can also try http://www.jerseydirectory.com/?=UnitedStates/States/ For jersey based dairies. 
Dairies are not the first choice for a family cow because big cow operations are usually exposed to more diseases and receive less hands on attention. But sometimes it's the only option.

Don't go to the sale barn. You're more likely to come home with a "rescue" than a milk cow.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Dusky Beauty said:


> hollie, Since you have little ones I DO NOT recommend keeping a breeding pair. Even the sweetest bestest bull calves grow up and once that testosterone gets pumping it owns him. A "nice" bull doesn't try to kill you. But he still will run over you to get at a cow or a pile of hay. They are big and strong and don't know their own strength. I've yet to hear anyone talk of how they pony their pet bull along on a halter. (Except for the guy who sells semen off of his bulls on his slightly dubious website.)
> Plus, you're feeding an animal 365 days a year when you need him to "work" for a day or two tops.
> Owning bulls is for people that have several cows that need servicing and the best fences on earth.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. I do not want a bull. My goal was to get a cow in milk and already bred so that I can learn her and vice versa. Then, once she calved, keep her calf to fatten for beef and then do AI and once she was about to calve again, butcher calf #1. That way we are not overloaded with cows while we extend the pasture but we avoid the lonely cow thing. 

I really do not want a cow from the sale barn because I have heard horror stories. I have heard good ones too but they are few and far between.

So I have to post for a while on the KFC proboard before the auctions threads open? Didn't know that. 

And chickens in the pasture is definately part of the plan, free bug control!!


----------



## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

I have been reading this for a couple days now and I have started writing a couple times also. I have grown up around cows all my life, and we keep a small Jersey herd and sell raw milk. There are so many good things about keeping a cow and a few bad things also. You know all the good things and a few bad things, but I think the good out weigh the bad, even when you think everything is wrong. I can`t count how many times I have told my wife we are selling the cows, and I have sold some. I wish you were closer to me I would train a first calf heifer for you to have for a milk cow. I have a young heifer that will be a small cow, and she tends to be a loner in the pasture. I give you credit to wanting a cow, most people are scared of cows. And while they can hurt you, I have been hurt very few times in my life by a cow. Cows on the most part are not bad, most people just don`t understand them, they are caring animals and once you are in the herd, you are one of them. You have done a lot of your homework, and that is good, keep doing it, you will never learn to much. And as someone else has said, do not buy a cow froma auction barn, you never know what you may get, more times than not you will get burned, big time. And don`t worry about what other people think about your plan, they are not milking your cow, you are. Some people just don`t get it, there is something about being close to animals and your family that makes farming and animals all worth while. You are going to have bad times as we all do, but you will also have some pretty great days also. As far as your children around a cow, don`t worry to much about them, cows get use to kids, as long as you teach the kids about the cows and what they can do. My kids have been growing up in the dairy barn, and my daughter, now six has been in the barn since she was a baby. The cows love her, and she knows here way around cows better than some old timers do. My son the cows tolerate, he is not as well liked by the cows and I don`t know why, but he has learned what he can do around them and where not to be. Jersey cows are my favorite, and I grew up around holsteins and brown swiss. Jersey cows are better grazers and tolerate heat better than the larger breeds do. Jerseys also have a higher butterfat than the larger breeds, and that makes a big differance when it comes to butter making. You will also be without milk for a couple months while your cow is on maternity leave, but you can freeze some milk ahead and use for baking and such. It isn`t the best for drinking , but works well for most other uses. and you can make enough butter ahead so you don`t run out in the down time. Your cow will more than likely be part of the family once you get the right one, and it may take you a couple cows before you find the right one. But don`t give up, the right cow will teach you so much. I don`t know if you have figured out yet that I enjoy my cows, but when you have lived in the dairy barn more than you have your house, you get kinda use to having them around. I say go for it, you have hubbies ok, you really want one, you have the room, you are willing to learn, you have a good start on it all because of that. So if you want to drive to Illinois for a cow or heifer, let me know we can work something out. > Thanks and Best of luck. > Marc


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Marc - springvalley - 

Thank you so much for the encouragement! It is hard standing alone on this (again, hubby is all on board...especially after we worked out the numbers again tonight). Everyone I know that does dairy at home has goats. And they all keep on doing the long pause when I talk about all I am learning re:dairy cows. Still, I am not swayed. Just want to hear from those more experienced than me so that I can get that wisdom! I wish I lived in a better farming community. There are a lot of corn fields and soy beans, but cows are few to be found and those that are here are meat or dairy farms that are building their herds. 
I know that before I get settled with a cow, my 5yr old will have milking down to a fine art. She is an animal whisperer! Love that girl. The oldest boy...he is wild! I'll have to work on him.
Again, many thanks. I can not express how the past two days reading everyone's advice has meant. Everyone thought I was crazy trying to homestead. And then once my dh said yes to moving to the country, wow. Nothing can stop me now. And don't you know it, now every one who was laughing at me wants soap and eggs and veggies. Crazy people.
I definately can't say that a trip to Illinois is in the future, even with the prospect of a personalized buying experience but your wisdom and well-wishes from afar are truly appreciated. 
Now I just need to go get my 4x4 posts to get started on that loafing shed!!


----------



## Dusky Beauty (Jan 4, 2012)

Ya know hollie, just start cruising craigslist once a week and start tracking what comes up for sale. For months and months here we never saw a dairy suitable cow of any kind listed and then once tax return season hit there was a dozen to choose from. Later in the year you couldnt find a hand milkable cow or heifer if life depended on it but when the drought made people panic over feed costs in the fall there were a bunch of jerseys listed and even a few dexters (not as many dex in the SW as there are in the east and midwest.) The jerseys were expensive as all get out.... but they were there.


----------



## Farmerboy16 (Dec 4, 2012)

I was in the same boat as you were last winter when my dad finally said yes that we can get a family cow. I have been on Craigslist everyday looking for a perfect cow, and asking people if that heifer/cow would be best for us, sometime they would say run far away that heifer/cow, or it was to far of a drive to get the cow, or it was too pricey. I was looking only for Jerseys, Milking Shorthorn. Found a Dexter, but was too pricey. I found one in January, an Angus/ Guernsey cross heifer due in late spring, owner moving out of state, but it was priced high, kept looking. And looking, March came around, that Angus/Guernsey cross heifer was still on Craigslist, but $500 cheaper with delivery fee. Drove two times 45 minutes away to check that heifer out. She came to the fence when she saw me, and ate my offering of grass, I checked her over on my side of fence, took pictures. Went home, showed pictures to my family, talked about it, and called owner, discussed pricing, picked a day to deliver her here. Got her home in April 13, had her first calf in May 31st, a heifer. Gives about gallon and a half of milk every day, kicked me and the bucket in the first week or so, but now is the best cow to milk in the world. Catching her in heat was hard, first one was in July, finally caught her in heat again in November 1st, got her AI, blood tested in December 5th, tested bred!
I am glad to get her not getting the others that I had wanted earlier, I was made to wait for the right time, so glad that I did. Don't go rushing at "oh its so cute" Someone said to me "you can't milk cuteness". lol Pick carefully, and have fun!


----------



## arnie (Apr 26, 2012)

I have a big gentile kind brown swiss cow this works for me as there is plenty of pasture I run a tractor helping make hay to feed her through the winter the bull a wonderfull black angus to cross to for a calf that grows gormeit beef unavailable at any price the clean great tasteing milk has a inch or two of cream every morning I get about 3/4 gallon or more at each milking I could take more but chose to let the calf have a big share to grow good and not feed the cow much commercial feed . I could not have a goat because a fence to hold them would be unaffordable and keeping it in a barn and buying the feed wound'nt work there is no free to use buck here and would be another problem .a little unapizeing goat meat cannot compare with a 800pound milk fed tender calf going to the butcher as the cow dries off to rest before freshening again after 10+ months of milking butter, ice cream ,yourgert and still left overs to keep the pig growing and healthily she has never tried to kick and can be called or led with a rattle of a bucket . I don't think a jersey or housteen would grow such a good calf as the brown swiss.milking by hand helps the cow keep you healthy just as her milk has the antibodies to keep her calf healthy .in summery the grass pasture is free feed for me as i'd be paying land tax any way and i'd be helping my cousin make hay anyway to feed a beef that id have to buy without her and I have to feed my work horse to .i'm not muck of a goat eater but there is another problem cyoutes cougars dogs bears also are in these hills and love to eat sheep or goats .if you have to keep a animail in total confinement a cow can work to but its a must with goats.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Dusky Beauty said:


> Ya know hollie, just start cruising craigslist once a week and start tracking what comes up for sale. For months and months here we never saw a dairy suitable cow of any kind listed and then once tax return season hit there was a dozen to choose from. Later in the year you couldnt find a hand milkable cow or heifer if life depended on it but when the drought made people panic over feed costs in the fall there were a bunch of jerseys listed and even a few dexters (not as many dex in the SW as there are in the east and midwest.) The jerseys were expensive as all get out.... but they were there.


Yes, I am stalking craigslist! I know that the search is half the battle. But I am praying that when the time and cow are right, things will work out.


----------



## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

Here's my two cents...........although you might not be asking for it. I have been around and milked dairy cows my whole life. Whether it be a home milk cow or working on a commercial dairy. I LIKE COWS! PERIOD! 

However, I have milk goats and love them also. If I was faced with the decision of "which one to get" I would choose goats handsdown everytime and here's my reasoning: Goats give more milk per capita of body weight than a cow does and eats tons less feed and hay. You can have three goats and have their lactations staggered so that you're never out of milk. They require less ground, they are a whole lot less damaging to the sod because they weigh less, they drop slow release fertilizer that doesn't need flattened out like cow piles, they like to browse and if managed correctly will eliminate the need to spray for weeds, they have more than one offspring most of the time and the kids are pretty tasty meat for the table, they are quicker to milk and I have had far less teat and udder problems out of goats, they don't require a barn's worth of hay to get them through the winter, and finally they are just plain hardier imho. 

The only major con I can think of at this time is that goats ARE harder to fence. For me it's not a problem because of my location. I just have to fence them out of the garden and fruit trees. I don't have to worry about keeping them off of the highway. 

I still like cows and will probably always have one around, I just think goats are more viable.


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Like Francismilker, I am a goat person. However, I will give you the same advice I give people who ask "What breed of goat should I get?" :

Get what you want to hang out with twice a day, every day, and what you are going to enjoy looking at in your pasture.

Yes, goats are more economical. Yes, you can make more butter per gallon of goat milk than cow milk (with a cream separator, but the cost REALLY evens out with stuff). Yes, over-all, goats are more efficient, and tend to be hardier. Yes, you can stock more goats on your acre.

But none of that matters if you love cows and don't enjoy goats. 

Get whatever you will love. THAT is the most important thing.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

francismilker said:


> Here's my two cents...........although you might not be asking for it. I have been around and milked dairy cows my whole life. Whether it be a home milk cow or working on a commercial dairy. I LIKE COWS! PERIOD!
> 
> The only major con I can think of at this time is that goats ARE harder to fence. For me it's not a problem because of my location. I just have to fence them out of the garden and fruit trees. I don't have to worry about keeping them off of the highway.
> 
> I still like cows and will probably always have one around, I just think goats are more viable.


I appreciate your honest opinion. Here is the thing. I like goats, I like cows. I have owned neither. If I can make us dairy independant on either, I would probably one day own both. I guess part of what I am looking for is which is more practical. 

We are a one-income family and we have lot's of things pulling on those resources. The reality is....ugh, can't believe I am admitting this, I am in love with the _idea_ of having a cow. When I think of owning a cow, I think of warm memories and - don't you laugh! - all my dreams when I was knee high and read Little House in the Big Woods. I think of all the yummy good things and I may be looking through some rose-colored glasses. When I think of goats, I love them, but I do not really equate them with total dairy independance and I worry about the fencing issues. That said, as you brought out, the poop is easier to manage, I can breed rotationally, housing is smaller and feed costs could be lower. 

You would think this would be cut-and-dry! It is just going to be a big deal for us financially, either way, a real investment and I am SO glad that I came here to get advice. I may still feel a little lost but I have more infomation and ideas then I did before. I am just a worry-wart, as previously stated and that can stunt me!


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

CaliannG said:


> Like Francismilker, I am a goat person. However, I will give you the same advice I give people who ask "What breed of goat should I get?" :
> 
> Get what you want to hang out with twice a day, every day, and what you are going to enjoy looking at in your pasture.
> 
> ...


I am very happy to talk to goat people! I love goat people and I want everyone's take so I can make a well thought out decision. So you said that you can make MORE butter with goats' milk than cows'? That is something new to me. I have never thought of purchasing a cream separator but I could look into that. 

What would you say your overall costs are related to goats? I would be thinking of having 3 does and raising a buckling or two for meat if I did goats.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Is it more practical to start with goats or a cow? If you are starting out, which is better for a total newbie? That is the question that I think I am really asking and it seems that it is all subjective. Ha! I am surprised you all are not tired of me yet. I will just have to go with my gut it seems. And the gut says.....:smack


----------



## opportunity (Mar 31, 2012)

I would be worried you said one acre and 1.5 tons of hay even my jerseys go through 5-6 tons of feed in a year and the angus can eat even more. I plan on at least 2 well irrigated acres per head in the summer and 25-35 pounds of hay perday per head when the grass in not growing. I have jersey, highland, herford and angus in my herd as well as cross breed. The highland/jersey seems to graze very well and gives good milk to the calfs though I only hand milk someone when I feel like it or run out of store bough milk.
I hate goats so I keep cows but you do need a lot of space per cow and they really do need a friend to be happy, I will not sell a cow to a person who does not already have at least one they are herd animals and can really be a pain to keep in alone. We lease a lot of land to run the cows I plan on having 2-3 acres winter pasture per animal and 2 tons of hay. I the summer here I need 5-10 acres of dry land per animal or 1-2 acres of well managed irrigated land, less land would mean more hay and hay is not cheap.


----------



## Sparkie (Aug 16, 2012)

holliehmstd said:


> Is it more practical to start with goats or a cow? If you are starting out, which is better for a total newbie? That is the question that I think I am really asking and it seems that it is all subjective. Ha! I am surprised you all are not tired of me yet. I will just have to go with my gut it seems. And the gut says.....:smack


You remind me of me when I was new to homesteading 

I think if you are in love with the idea of a cow then you will be happier starting out with a cow. I think your friends are projecting their fears of handling a larger animal than a goat onto you. You need to do what you want to do, don't let others fears hold you back.

I lived on a farm for part of my growing up years so was familiar with cows. When we first moved here I got a sweet Jersey cow. She has since passed on but I'll always have fond memories of my Millie. She loved calves and happily took every calf we brought her. She made more milk than 3 people could drink so we tried to keep an extra calf on her for a few years. Later on when we stopped buying calves for her we just cut down to once a day milking so we weren't drowning in milk. Even then we cut her feed way back to cut her milk production back more. I think that too much milk will be less of a problem for you with six people in the family though. 

We have milked Jerseys and Dexters but for various reasons don't use much dairy anymore. We still have a fairly large beef herd but no milkers. We do have a couple of Nubian goats that we milk sometimes, they have milk pretty similar to Jersey milk. Rich and creamy, yum.

I learned pretty quick that you don't have to feed a cow up to get every possible drop of milk out of her. Adjust it to your needs. Also the cow will hold up longer and be healthier if not treated like a commercial dairy cow.

As sort of stated above we always left the calf on the cow and share milked. For us that worked best as we weren't tied to milking if we needed to take a break for whatever reason. We just left the calf with the cow full time and that was that. When we milked we would lock the calf up at night and milk in the morning, letting the calf out after. It gives a lot more flexibility doing it that way. We do that with the goats too. 

In case you don't know this, you should never consider keeping a Jersey bull. They are dangerous. We've had a lot of cows, including Dexter and Angus bulls, and have plenty of experience, but I wouldn't even entertain the thought of keeping a Jersey bull. They are just unpredictable and dangerous. My husband tells stories from when he was a kid of the stuff their Jersey bulls did and it's a wonder he wasn't killed. 

Also, to avoid heartbreak and avoid contaminating your land, do some research on Johne's disease. Any cow you bring home should be tested for it before it comes on to your property. You really should avoid buying a cow from a dairy if at all possible, there's a much higher chance of getting a cow with Johne's from a dairy. Even if they test and cull for Johne's, if they have had one positive cow, by the time they culled the others were exposed and it can incubate for a long time (years.) I don't want to go into it in depth but it's not treatable and contaminates your land for a long time so you can't bring other cows in. There are also possible connections to Johne's in cows and Chron's disease in people. Just educate yourself. You'll also want to test the cow for bangs (brucellosis) and tb before drinking the milk.

This is getting long and drawn out but I will add something about fencing. Dairy cows are easy to fence. We've fenced them in with one strand of electric. Two strands is better so they don't get upset when the calf runs in and out. Goats aren't easy to fence. They aren't quite the horror stories you hear about sometimes on here in general, but sometimes you get one who is just about impossible to keep in. We have one like that now. She's a huge cow of a goat and you wouldn't believe the little spaces she can get through. When all else fails she just climbs! Huge udder and all.... sigh. I think she's going to have to go to the sale after she raises this year's kids, she's just too destructive. Her goal in life seems to be to destroy my orchard 

Anyway, welcome and have fun with your cow adventures! And please share them here


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

opportunity said:


> I hate goats so I keep cows but you do need a lot of space per cow and they really do need a friend to be happy, I will not sell a cow to a person who does not already have at least one they are herd animals and can really be a pain to keep in alone. We lease a lot of land to run the cows I plan on having 2-3 acres winter pasture per animal and 2 tons of hay. I the summer here I need 5-10 acres of dry land per animal or 1-2 acres of well managed irrigated land, less land would mean more hay and hay is not cheap.


I understand the hay figures I am working off of may be skewed. I acknowledge my own ignorance! Still, when you read _Keeping a Family Cow_ Ms. Grohman talks about having kept a cow in a garage and a residential backyard. And when I was growing up, anyone we knew with a "family cow" only had one. I am not saying these circumstances are IDEAL (or in the case of the garage/backyard, practical), just that I was under the impression that I would be able to make due with a cow and her calf for company and that the one acre would hold until we could open it up some more. 

I have also looked in _The Self-Sufficient Life_ - that is where I figured my hay #s from. See, books can't do it all. I feel so lost now.....


----------



## Sparkie (Aug 16, 2012)

Your one cow will be fine. They are happier with company but when the calf comes that solves the problem.

About the one acre, you probably will need to have a smaller area where you can pen her up when needed so that she doesn't completely tear the ground up. In the late spring early summer one acre is probably enough for a Jersey and calf in Va, but in the other parts of the year you're going to have to feed some hay and keep an eye on the condition of the pasture till you can expand.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Sparkie said:


> You remind me of me when I was new to homesteading
> 
> Anyway, welcome and have fun with your cow adventures! And please share them here


Sparkie, thanks so much! I am glad to know I do not sound as crazy to others as I sound to myself! I am sure my dh is really tired of me going back and forth on this. Bleh. 

I will say this, if based only on the products I could make at home instead of having to purchase from the store, the cow wins.

Poop, goat wins.

Feed, I hear it can cost a lot either way depending upon varying circumstances so, draw.

Fencing, cow

You know, I feel like this planning is an experiment in crazy. Some people just see something and do it! Want a goat, get it. Build a fence when you get home. Chickens? Sure, pick up some feed on the way. Cow, why not!?

I hope one morning I will wake up to a milk bucket and curry comb!!


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Sparkie said:


> Your one cow will be fine. They are happier with company but when the calf comes that solves the problem.
> 
> About the one acre, you probably will need to have a smaller area where you can pen her up when needed so that she doesn't completely tear the ground up. In the late spring early summer one acre is probably enough for a Jersey and calf in Va, but in the other parts of the year you're going to have to feed some hay and keep an eye on the condition of the pasture till you can expand.


Okay. Sparkie, you give me hope!


----------



## momofseven (Oct 10, 2008)

I have had milk goats and cows and hands down I prefer the cows. All the dairy and the extra beef helps the grocery bill. Our first cow was a mid sized Jersey with three quarters. A note about mastitis...it is highly unlikely that all four quarters will develop mastitis at the same time, so you will still have some milk. I also have a herd share that helps with the extra milk that the calf doesn't take. Our AI guy only charges 40.00$ to come out and AI and once you get the hang of what you are watching for, it isn't too hard to catch them in heat.


----------



## Dusky Beauty (Jan 4, 2012)

Hollie, found this farm in VA for you through family cow's auction barn. Looks like a good place to visit and learn from weather you buy or not. 

http://www.mistymorningfarmva.com/products/


----------



## lindamoo (Jul 26, 2010)

If I were in your shoes with today's economy, today's drought, and rising cost of feed, I would start out with a goat. A tested, healthy one at that. Your learning curve will be a lot less expensive and you can always move on to a cow if you choose later on down the road. Something else to consider...cows seem to have more metabolic issues than goats. If your cow dies you can be out a lot more money that if your goat dies. Just more food for thought.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

lindamoo said:


> If I were in your shoes with today's economy, today's drought, and rising cost of feed, I would start out with a goat. A tested, healthy one at that. Your learning curve will be a lot less expensive and you can always move on to a cow if you choose later on down the road. Something else to consider...cows seem to have more metabolic issues than goats. If your cow dies you can be out a lot more money that if your goat dies. Just more food for thought.


Here are the #'s that I am looking at for goats based on Fiasco Farm info:

2-3 lbs/day for each doe in milk
hay, minerals, black oil sunflower seeds

I would buy from Countryside Naturals/Organics - feed is $27/50lbs, black oil sunflower seeds are $26.50/25lb bag, minerals w/kelp are $32/50lbs. So for 3 does in milk - what I am assuming we would need estimating 1 gal/day/goat to take care of milk and cheeses - 5 bags of feed would run us $135/month, hay (2lbs/day/goat) - 5 square bales (est. 45lbs ea. @ $3) $15/month. I guess the sunflower seeds will last 1 mo and the minerals for months. So I totalled it out at an estimate of $180/month.

For a cow, this is what I have come up with: 

I want to feed mostly hay, not grain. So figuring 1/2-1 bale/day, anywhere around $45-$90/month depending upon weather, feeding requirements. Along with that kelp minerals - $30.50 lasting 6 mos., salt $17, soaking beets/alfalfa cube - not sure which avg $30 and then all the extra kale, carrots, other veggies etc from the garden that a cow can eat. I totalled this out at anywhere from $80 -$150/month. 

Again, my numbers may not be accurate. But either way, when I contrast total product obtained from 1 cow vs. 3 goats and time caring for 3 animals vs. 1, I think the cow wins. I know the numbers will be larger with a cow and a calf but that is not a real issue as we are mostly hoping to do milk-fed beef with hay and butcher at 8-10mos.

oh, and fencing cost...let's not even go there. Even thought that is a one time expense.

please let me know if I am way off...


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Dusky Beauty said:


> Hollie, found this farm in VA for you through family cow's auction barn. Looks like a good place to visit and learn from weather you buy or not.
> 
> http://www.mistymorningfarmva.com/products/


Thank you! They look really nice.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

momofseven said:


> I have had milk goats and cows and hands down I prefer the cows. All the dairy and the extra beef helps the grocery bill. Our first cow was a mid sized Jersey with three quarters. A note about mastitis...it is highly unlikely that all four quarters will develop mastitis at the same time, so you will still have some milk. I also have a herd share that helps with the extra milk that the calf doesn't take. Our AI guy only charges 40.00$ to come out and AI and once you get the hang of what you are watching for, it isn't too hard to catch them in heat.


Thank you for this. I am concerned about AI b/c it is more $$ to spend but hoping that will work out well. I would do a family style milk share because it is crazy here in VA - for me at least - and just barter staples for the milk, oats, rice, sugar, that kind of thing. Still works out in the end I think. I have personally never has mastitis - hope I never do! I am sure that is painful for human or beast. It concerns me, that and Johnnes but I guess you have to be careful regardless.


----------



## momofseven (Oct 10, 2008)

Hollie...where in VA are you? I'm in Cumberland Co. and you would be welcome to come out and try your hand at milking a cow...and for a chat. My AI guy is based out of Amelia and he comes out here to do my cows.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

momofseven said:


> Hollie...where in VA are you? I'm in Cumberland Co. and you would be welcome to come out and try your hand at milking a cow...and for a chat. My AI guy is based out of Amelia and he comes out here to do my cows.


oooo! I am in King William so we are basically in a straight 1.5 hr line away from each other. I would love to come for a visit!


----------



## momofseven (Oct 10, 2008)

Great...let me know what works for you and we can set up a time.

BTW... I am "lynpea" over on KFC...


----------



## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

If you want a cow, get a cow! If you find you don't like it, sell a cow!  

I'll say I like goats the best myself. They are smaller, easier to handle and don't splash poo or try to pee in the barn. They are also physically easier to milk (softer skin and less to milk all at once). But cows are alright too.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

southerngurl said:


> If you want a cow, get a cow! If you find you don't like it, sell a cow!
> 
> I'll say I like goats the best myself. They are smaller, easier to handle and don't splash poo or try to pee in the barn. They are also physically easier to milk (softer skin and less to milk all at once). But cows are alright too.


That was very diplomatic! Like your style. The visual image of splashy poo was good too...:yuck:


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Holli, you are way off.

For one, no matter what kind of dairy animal you get, you are feeding nutrients _per pound of milk produced_.

A Dairy cow gets nutrient concentrates at about 1 pound of concentrates per 3 pounds of milk produced.

A Dairy goats gets nutrient concentrates at about 1 pound of concentrates per 3 pounds of milk produced.

Cows can thrive on weedy hay that a horse will not touch.

Goats can thrive on weedy hay that a horse will not touch.

If you want higher butterfat production from a cow, or to keep her in condition if she is a high producer, then you will have to add fat to her diet. The most common, readily available form of feed fat people add is BOSS.

Yeah, ditto for goats. 

If you want to make sure that your dairy cow has plenty of calcium and is therefore not subject to developing hypocalcemia (milk fever, which can kill her), you either feed her alfalfa hay, alfalfa pellets, or top dress her feed with calcium carbonate.

Umm, yeah, ditto for milking goats. Dairy people feed alfalfa for the calcium and protein content, both of which are important for milk production.

In other words, when it comes to pure FEED, and managing feed, a good producing dairy animal is a good producing dairy animal, and there is not a whole bunch of difference in the requirements of a dairy cow, a dairy goat, a dairy sheep, a dairy horse, or a dairy yak. (Yes, they DO have dairy breeds of all of those animals!) A producing dairy animal requires higher levels of carbohydrates, proteins, fats, calcium, and trace minerals, because she is putting these things into her milk every day. Her feed needs to replace what she is putting into her milk, and replace the energy used to convert hay and grain into milk that you will use to make butter and cheese.

Now, when it comes to feed effeciency (how effectively an animal converts the food she eats into milk), goats are slightly better than cows.

When it comes to butterfat content of the milk (that's the stuff that will turn into butter), goats are slightly higher than cows. Cows average 3.2% butterfat content; goats average 4.4%. The little goats, like miniature breeds, are even higher, at 5% or higher.

However, when it comes to sheer VOLUME of milk, a good Jersey will beat out the best producing Saanen every time. That is only to be expected, since a Jersey weighs out over a thousand pounds, and the Saanen is likely topping the scales at a buck-fitty.

When it comes to LABOR, the cow is the better choice. Labor is the time you are going to take trimming hooves, giving vaccinations, worming, etc. It takes just as much time to give a C,D&T vaccination to a goat as it does to a cow. Therefore, when it comes to labor per amount of milk, the cow wins.

Now, having said all that, personal preference, attitude, ect., when it comes to homesteading play a HUGE role. I am not afraid of large animals, I have horses and I do adore my beef.  I have goats for dairy because, for me, I prefer them. I love their impish personalities. I love their outgoing affection. I love their playfulness. Cows, to me, are terribly boring. (No offense to people who love their milk cows.) To other people, the laid-back attitude of a cow is very relaxing and meditative... to me, it makes milking more of a chore rather than fun time I get to spend with my goats.

So really, honestly, choose what appeal to YOU. What will best suit YOU. Because no one else is going to be in the milking stall with you.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Caliann, 

Thanks for the information! I definately don't know anything yet. Reading books doesn't always directly correlate to having knowledge.


----------



## tonyb (Jul 4, 2011)

holliehmstd said:


> Caliann,
> 
> Thanks for the information! I definately don't know anything yet. Reading books doesn't always directly correlate to having knowledge.


You can say that again. I've found this to be true many, many times.

When you're first starting your farm/homestead, every decision seems like the biggest one of your life. It is a big decision, no doubt, but its not the final decision for your homestead for all eternity. You can change course whenever you want. Jump in and get a cow; if it doesn't work for you, then jump back out.

It works the other way too. Even though you really, really want a cow, you could get a couple of goats for the first year. It doesn't mean your dream of having a cow has come to an end. Next year you could "trade them in" for a cow. This is actually a nice way to ease into owning livestock. Because of their small size, goats are much easier from a facilities standpoint (and on the pocketbook). Smaller buildings, smaller stanchion, smaller footprints, smaller transportation, smaller purchase price. 

This is the route we took (goats first, cows second) and it worked out great. To answer your original question, no matter which way you decide to go, you're definitely not crazy.


----------



## Double H Ranch (Oct 16, 2012)

you could always get a mini dairy cow... we have both cows and goats. I started with goats to learn on an animal that wouldn't flatten me in the dirt then I bought a mini dairy cow and now I have my big girls =) ~if I was forced to make a choice I would keep my cows over my goats hands down.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

tonyb said:


> You can say that again. I've found this to be true many, many times.
> 
> When you're first starting your farm/homestead, every decision seems like the biggest one of your life. It is a big decision, no doubt, but its not the final decision for your homestead for all eternity. You can change course whenever you want. Jump in and get a cow; if it doesn't work for you, then jump back out.
> 
> ...


I feel like you hit this nail on it's head! It does feel like I am commiting to a life long decision here! Not that anyone or anything is making me feel that way. It just all seems so serious and weighty. I can see the point that you are making. It is hard to explain to others why you feel overwhelmed with the choice when their choices regarding food boil down to a decision in the grocery aisle!! 

Truly, many thanks. I have read every post and digested it and they are all appreciated. And this one really hit home. I can do this. Everyone has said that both are great and either way, fresh, raw dairy is what we are trying to achieve. So I feel blessed to have this outlet and resource all in one. I have to see if I can nail down a little more on cost and then I am going to commit to a decision. Cost is really an estimate, but it does boil down to that in some sense. 

This is the pregnancy hormones talking but...Hugs all around!!


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Double H Ranch said:


> I started with goats to learn on an animal that wouldn't flatten me in the dirt...


I got a big kick out of that! :hysterical: That is something to think about!


----------



## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

holliehmstd said:


> Is it more practical to start with goats or a cow? If you are starting out, which is better for a total newbie? That is the question that I think I am really asking and it seems that it is all subjective. Ha! I am surprised you all are not tired of me yet. I will just have to go with my gut it seems. And the gut says.....:smack


 I don't think you could go wrong either way. I'll just tell you how it worked for me. I started with a milk goat that hubby got me for Christmas one year. I started with a dairy goat because I had been raising meat goats so I understood goats. Plus, I wanted to ensure that I enjoyed milking twice a day every day, never taking a vacation, having my time committed for me, etc. I feel in love with Gwendolyn. Loved spending time with her every morning and evening. I added a few more dairy goats, (up to 12 milkers now) and sold off all of the meat goats. Then about 2 years ago, I went to an auction and came home with two 1-week old jersey/holstein crossed bottle heifers. Josie and Clarabell are now 2 years old, bred, and soon I will be milking them as well. Love the cows, love the goats. 
I am glad that I started with a smaller dairy animal to give myself a chance to learn how to milk and what to look for if there are problems. I think, for me at least, I would have been more intimated starting with a cow. But that's just me. 
You'll figure it out. You're doing the right thing by asking questions, getting opinions, learning. Best wishes and keep us posted. (plus a picture of whatever you get would be fun!)


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

holliehmstd said:


> For a cow, this is what I have come up with:
> 
> I want to feed mostly hay, not grain. So figuring 1/2-1 bale/day, anywhere around $45-$90/month depending upon weather, feeding requirements. Along with that kelp minerals - $30.50 lasting 6 mos., salt $17, soaking beets/alfalfa cube - not sure which avg $30 and then all the extra kale, carrots, other veggies etc from the garden that a cow can eat. I totalled this out at anywhere from $80 -$150/month.
> 
> ...


I am quoting myself!!! Yea! 

I searched at length the KFC proboards and it seems that my #s may not be so off! :nanner:I may have them allocated incorrectly and missing a few points like AI cost but somewhere around $1500/yr give or take for one cow seems right. Even if it went up to $2000/year we could still work with that. I know that I will have folks that will want to buy cheese or yogurt with their eggs and that can allay some of the cost. If we hoped for an avg. of 3 gal/day for 10mos then that would be great! If there was less, it would still be okay and then factor in a little more for a beef steer or loads less if there was a heifer to sell. I think I am liking this.


----------



## Dusky Beauty (Jan 4, 2012)

holliehmstd said:


> I am quoting myself!!! Yea!
> 
> I searched at length the KFC proboards and it seems that my #s may not be so off! :nanner:I may have them allocated incorrectly and missing a few points like AI cost but somewhere around $1500/yr give or take for one cow seems right. Even if it went up to $2000/year we could still work with that. I know that I will have folks that will want to buy cheese or yogurt with their eggs and that can allay some of the cost. If we hoped for an avg. of 3 gal/day for 10mos then that would be great! If there was less, it would still be okay and then factor in a little more for a beef steer or loads less if there was a heifer to sell. I think I am liking this.


Hollie, another think to think on--- I think you and I are about the same lvl of pregnant more or less (I'm due mid june)-- make sure you don't get yourself in a position of having a cow in milk while you are heavily pregnant. You want a cow that is at least a few months behind you in gestation. 
I'm having a hard time figuring out how keep my girls in milk during my "maternity leave" from the milk parlor.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Dusky Beauty said:


> Hollie, another think to think on--- I think you and I are about the same lvl of pregnant more or less (I'm due mid june)-- make sure you don't get yourself in a position of having a cow in milk while you are heavily pregnant. You want a cow that is at least a few months behind you in gestation.
> I'm having a hard time figuring out how keep my girls in milk during my "maternity leave" from the milk parlor.


Yea! I am due May. What # are you on? 

I have thought about that at length. I am pretty quick to recoup (although you never know) so I was thinking that if I can get a cow a few months before this new addition then my dear husband !miracle upon miracle! has recently said that he is looking forward to milking!! So I don't know. It is either keep on going with the nasty stuff until after May, or just jump in. Either way, we have decided for sure.....


We are going cow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bouncy:


----------



## Dusky Beauty (Jan 4, 2012)

I am also on number 4. 
I am probably going to hang up my milk pail on my 7th month and go to my 6 weeks postpartem before I pick it up again. Hubby's hands don't fit the girls, and DD9 isn't persistent enough to do a good job so milking begins and ends with me  

coincidentally that is also some of the hottest, most uncomfortable months of my year here in Phoenix. 
I wonder if I can get my girls to adopt some bottle calves during the hot months?


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

Well congratulations! I am sure if I was in a hotter location I would hang it up for a while too. I am not a "heat" person. Don't like it at all. When I asked hubby about moving to Maine he refused so there goes that. However, I never do the full rest for 6 weeks. I get too antsy. I just try to avoid the heavy lifting and hubs is good for that so I will hopefully be covered. I figure we are heading into sheer chaos so what is one more thing. Kids aged 5, 4, 1 and a newborn. Why not a cow!? 

How many do you all have? Cows that is.


----------



## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I am a goat person, so I say goat  

You have to take what Fiasco Farm says with a grain of salt. 
It costs me $3 per day in the Summer and $10 per day in the Winter to feed a herd of 35 dairy goats. I feed horse quality grass hay, alfalfa pellets and grain. 

If you have three full size dairy goats you will get around 3 gallons per day. 
The cost of buying three goats and keeping them is less then one cow. 

Goats produce more per breeding then cows, twins, triplets and quads happen often without the issue of freemartins. I have one doe who kidded quints . 
I sell babies and get a larger return then I would breeding one cow. 

Poop is nice it blows away, rakes or sweeps easy. Hoof trimming is far easier then having to call someone like my neighbor did, put the cows in a chute that tills and have them do it all the while the cows were spraying poop all over and squishing their tails and forcing me to duck. 

Goats can't or don't pick their noses with their own tongue, another positive  

You kids will easily be able to handle a goat, even a standard size doe and if they get kicked or squished up against the wall or fence it hurts far less. 
Goats are smart and you can teach them their names and to come when called, and jump right on the milk stand. 

Goats can learn tricks like shaking hands, or jumping through hoops, or from one spool to the next. My daughter one Summer was busy teaching our wether to do this. So goats can keep kids occupied or entertained. 

Three goats on one acre would be easier on your pasture and be plenty for them. Standard goats do not jump fences as much or as easily as my Nigerians do. 

Goats are pretty easy to load up into an SUV to be taken to the vet or 4H and easily be shown if your kids decide to get into that. 

If your does are not dry lotted they will not smell and neither will their pee or poop. Bucks are gross and do smell but you can borrow one, bring your girls to be bred or do a driveway breeding for $25-50. 

I really would visit a cow dairy and a goat dairy, or people you know who keep them and milk both, see how their set up is and how easy or hard it is. 

No matter what you get start with healthy animals. Look them over well, feel them for bumps an lumps, see testing records etc. 


Goat babies practically sell themselves and are too cute!!


----------



## Sparkie (Aug 16, 2012)

tonyb said:


> Because of their small size, goats are much easier from a facilities standpoint (and on the pocketbook).


I agree with everything you said except this 

Cows don't really "need" shelter at all. Goats do. A cow will stay behind one strand of electric, goats not so much lol.

We have a pretty large herd of cows who have no shelter at all except for natural windbreaks. They are healthy and happy. We've gone through a couple of times when we didn't have very good shelter for our goats. They were neither happy nor particularly healthy. We lost some babies because of the shelter situation.

The only real need for shelter with a milk cow is to have a place you can milk that's out of the weather. The shelter is for the human 

ETA - and you don't need a stanchion to milk a cow, you really do need a milk stand to comfortably milk goats.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

In case you missed it, we are going to be cow people!

For us it comes down to total product. I understand that goats have more babies, and 1 goat eats far less than one cow. But we have to make a complete conversion. When we invest in at-home dairy, we have to go all in. I need to get, or be able to make, all of the dairy products that we use on a regular basis - Milk, cream, sour cream, kefir, yogurt, butter, cheeses - from our dairy animal, and I simply cannot achieve that with goats without committing to a lot of animals and then the cost is higher. I can get one cow, raise a beef steer or sell a heifer and get a calf to raise for beef and that takes care of dairy and beef for the year. With goats, I would still have to buy butter and cream products and beef. I understand that goats - especially Nubians and Nigerian Dwarfs - have high butterfat content, but when looking at the work required for cream and quantity obtained vs. a Jersey cow, things just work out better. I do not know any goat owners that make goat butter. They all say that it is not worth it. So that is a big deal for me. 

The other thing that I find encouraging is that I can distribute excess milk for either bartering, or animal feed. Pigs and chickens all do well on clabbered milk and whey so that will cut down on feed costs - especially for the pigs - and that helps enormously. Not to mention manure for the garden. With one animal we will be getting a lot for the hay!

This does not mean that I do not want goats ever. I still would like to have goats and it probably is not that far off. If we can acheive reasonable success with the cow, then I am hoping to get 2 Alpine doelings the next year. But for us, the cow works out better right now. I am sure there is a learning curve either way so, this will just be another great homesteading adventure!


----------



## suzyhomemaker09 (Sep 24, 2004)

Well I'm a have both...( though you can't tell by my sig. line yet )
I have done dairy goats for quite a few years and last year I bought a bred Dexter cow....I love both for different reasons.


----------



## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

~chuckles~ Hollie, you now know someone who does goat butter, goat cream, goat cream cheese, etc! Me!

BUT.... when I want cream to do those things with, I bring my milk in from the barn and put it immediately through the cream separator that my mother got me for X-mas a few years back. The separator is from the Ukraine, and it cost her $152.00.

Goat butter is different from cow butter. Cow cream contains Beta Carotene (a precurser of Vitamin A) that gives it that yellow look. Goat cream has bio-available Vitamin A, instead of the precurser, so it is white.

~grinz~ However, I hope you have fun with your cow! You are going to find that you are going to need a bigger property soon, though.... because dairy animals of all kinds are addicting, and you will want to add more.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

CaliannG said:


> ~chuckles~ Hollie, you now know someone who does goat butter, goat cream, goat cream cheese, etc! Me!
> 
> BUT.... when I want cream to do those things with, I bring my milk in from the barn and put it immediately through the cream separator that my mother got me for X-mas a few years back. The separator is from the Ukraine, and it cost her $152.00.
> 
> ...


Good for you! I actually love goat butter. I had it once and it was soo good I felt like it was a shame it cost so much because it is totally out of my price range. I think I like butter period, way too much!


----------



## Dusky Beauty (Jan 4, 2012)

welcome to the cow cub Hollie! (don't worry, you'll get suckered into la manchas or nigies or something too one of these days cuz they're just 'so cute!')

We currently have 3 and 3/4ths cows. 

There's Martha, our reliable 4 yr old grade dexter (polled):








and her heifer Monica on the right. Monica is out of a lowline angus bull and is now 3 months older than that photo and weaned to hay for the most part.

There is also Betty, the red dexter. She came as a package deal with Martha and Monica and will be sold to a new home when she's bred. I've seen photos of her udder full and it's excellent, but she's never been handled much and needs some hands on to be a milker and I should not be dancing with wild cows in my condition. 








she's really nice, just doesn't like being caught and i haven't gone farther than trying to catch her. This is what happens when cows are just raised "on pasture" 

We also have "Missy", a belmont who just dropped us a bull calf. 









her milk is fantastic and thick, but she's still hormonal. I am also not allowed to mess with chronic kicking cows, so we'll milk her again when her hormones level out.


----------



## holliehmstd (Apr 26, 2012)

I like your pictures! I have heard a lot of people say that they like Dexters. There is something to be said for smaller cows.


----------

