# Dream House Design



## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

Ok folks, lets do some dreaming. My wife and I decided that we're going to move and this time we'll build new. Once we find the acreage that we want (no less than 5 acres, and probably no more than 10 because of the cost) we'll start put our little hobby farm up for sale and start to build. We're in central Minnesota about 70 miles north of Minneapolis.

Here's some challenges. I hate to pay utility bills, my wife likes to turn on anything and everything without having to think about it. I like hot water heat, but still want air conditioning. She wants a traditional cottage style house (two story, 3 bedrooms on the second floor and full wrap around porch, blocking out the sun!), and I like what's most energy efficient. Whatever I want to do regarding solar or wind cannot be seen as you drive up to the house. She also dosen't want any type of open fire inside the house, in other words, no inside wood stove or fireplace (her fear of house fires).

So, here's what I would do. 6" walls (that's a code requirement here), double pain windows, grid tied electric but a few solar panels on a tracking system set away from the house, and a small wind plant (we have good wind around here). The panels and wind plant would just be to offset some of the electric since we'll be using around 1100-1500kwh per month. We'd use all energy star rated appliances and a 98+ efficient boiler. I'm torn right now between an outside wood boiler or just having solar panels to provide hot water to the in floor heat. Since the house will be fairly air tight and I'd be using an efficient boiler, I'm not so sure the $8000 to install an outside wood boiler, plus deal with the wood is really worth it. I also want to do solar water pumping into plastic storage tanks in the basement of the house, the use a 12v pump to pressurize the house water system. I'm also thinking of some kind of outdoor water storage and collection (rain run off) for lawn and garden watering.

So, given the housing requirement and restrictions from my spouse, what would you do? Cost is somewhat of a factor, we're not the Rockefeller's, but we can afford to put in a few extras as long as at some point during the ownership it'll pay for itself.


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

Just to clarify. I'm not looking for people critique what I may or may not do, but what would you do given those requirements. Think of it as a brain storming session. Or, maybe you wouldn't do it with those requirements and you'd tell your spouse to rethink what he/she wants in a house.

Also, to clarify, I never said I was looking to be self sufficient on 5-10 acres, altought I do quite well on my 12 acres today. Also, I'm not looking to use alternative sources for the 1100-1200kwh/mo because that would cut to much into the budget overall budget of the house. But nothing wrong with replacing a couple hundred kwh or so. Also, they do have high efficient boilers, over 90%, from what I've heard from my boiler man, but they've had their problems. To clarify on the 6" wall requirement, it's actually the R value of R19 (I think it's R19, whatever a 6" batt of fiberglass gives you) is required as a minimum and to achieve that they use 6" walls with fiberglass batts. Also, fairly tight means the need for some kind of fresh air exchanger during the winter months, I don't know how they do that with a boiler, just a furnace, my 101 year old farm house breaths just fine on it's own .

So remember, brain storm.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Oops. my mistake I read 6" as 6'. Sorry.

Your local code requires the walls to have a void space of 6 inches? for insulation. Nice. Assuming that you want to use wood stick framing, are you going to use 2X8 for the frames so you can get 6 inches of void for insulation?

Around here I see a lot of wood stick going up with 2X4s.

My walls have 8 inch voids so putting in thick insulation was easy, but I am using a steel building so it has no framing in the exterior walls.


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi,

I'd think about building the house on a concrete slab with radiant floor heating. The concrete slab can store heat from either direct gain solar or from solar collectors. Make sure you insulate around and under the slab.

For MN, I would use more wall insulation than a straight 2X6 stud wall. With thermal bridging, this only gives about R15. One construction that I like, and is inexpensive is:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SolarHomes/Stick/GSNotes01.htm
Its well thought out, and has been used on a number of homes in norther WI, which should be similar to MN.
Lots more efficient construction techniques here:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SolarHomes/constructionps.htm

For the roof, I would use blown in cellulose insulation (lots of it) with raised heel roof trusses so that you can get the thick insulation all the way out to the edges. This is inexpensive and very good thermally.

You really want to keep after the contractor on air sealing. With good insulation, this will likely be your major heat loss. 

---
Plans:
There are all kinds of passive solar house plans. They can look very conventional or not. I'd take a look in this area, and see what grabs you.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SolarHomes/constructionps.htm

--
Solar Electricity:
In Minnesota you will be spending a lot more energy for space and water heating than for electricity, so I would take the money you are planning to put into the PV, and put it into excellent insulation and solar heating. That is, work hard on conserving electricity with efficient appliances and lighting, but spend your solar PV money on solar heating rather than solar electricity -- the solar heating gives you about 25 times more bang for the buck than solar electricity. 

Sounds like a great project -- good luck!


Gary


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## mondakkid (Oct 17, 2006)

Hi Kevingr....I like your post. I am really interested in some of the replys that you will get. I am also in the process of planning a solar heated house. I am also looking for suggestions and possible layouts for rooms. I have really enjoyed some of the ideas from Solar Gary....learned a lot from them. I am a firm believer in super insulation....a dollar well spent. I would not go with the code of today.....think of what it will be 10..20 years from now. I also think that money spent on more insulation, wrap, etc. is well spent. This is a one time investment...a person can always add the extras later, like carpet, etc. 
I have plans to use a triple wall using 2 X 4's. This will give me a wall approx. 11 " thick and then spray the cavity with spray on cellulose. I have not decided on what part will be passive and how many active solar collectors to have and how to store the heat. I hope to decide over the next month or so from reading all that I can about building solar heated houses and from people like your self that are doing the same thing. I have really been impressed with some of the replys that I have read on this site. Good luck on your project. jerry


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

Insulation--superinsulation is the way to go, minimum 9 to 12 inch walls in my opinion, based on experience (built super insulated house in western wisconsin in 1977 or so, with min 12" walls). Active solar tied to a well insulated thick floor system works in mid-Minnesota (I know of systems around St Cloud and about that far north in Wisconsin). Have you considered straw bale construction?


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

I hadn't really thought about the super insulation aspect, that makes a lot of sense and seems to be the easiet/cheapest(?) thing to implement. Not to mention that works with all house designs.

Gary, thanks. Excellent links, I spent a few hours yesterday researching all that. Wish I could talk my wife into a masonry heater, with that, super insulation, and the masonry heater heating water for in floor heat a person would have a pretty nice setup.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I agree that insulation is the best investment on any house design.

We are doing an R-40 ish.

One issue to look at in design is thermal-bridging. We only have bridging in the window and door frames. But nowhere else.

Insulation can be expensive. But it is one of the best places to put money into.

While you are still in the design phase, this is the best time to address the thermal-bridging, and work-out how to eliminate it.

After you achieve a R over 40, then heating and cooling should be far easier, regardless of what system you choose to use to heat and cool with.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

We are in the same design process.

We are looking at 3 wall options.

ICF
SIP
Insulation on the outside and concrete on the inside.

Cement slab floors with infloor radiant heated with evacuated solar tubes.
No wood heat due to our mother-in-laws health problems.
Wind and Solar electricity as we can afford.

Our hope is to have enough mass that we will not have to air condition. 

We will be building somewhere in the Wyoming Black Hills.

We will have a east west axis and south facing exposure for all main rooms.

Jill


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## Dubai Vol (Mar 22, 2006)

Insulation is great, as is thermal mass. Passive annual heat storage is possible even for a conventional-looking house. More expensive up front but then you have virtually free heating AND cooling.

Another thing to seriously consider is building on one level. If this is your home for the rest of your life, there may come a time when getting up and down stairs is not possible. IMO the only reason to build two stories is when you just don't have room to build all on one level. On 5-10 acres that's not an issue.

Also, don't discount the power of persuasion. Just because your wife wants it thus and so now doesn't mean she always will. In my experience she probably hasn't given the matter much thought, she just "knows what she wants." That's fine, but it's also much easier to get her to consider new ideas too.

Consider options to traditional stick-built. I'm going with stone walls and a ferrocement roof. Fireproof and tornado proof. Four hundred year roof. Geothermal heating and cooling via earth tubes, with a heat pump backup and a masonry stove in the middle of the house. (the house is fireproof, so no worry about a fire! See how that works?) No heating or cooling bills either.

Dream big and think outside the box.


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

painterswife said:


> We are in the same design process.
> 
> We are looking at 3 wall options.
> 
> ...


Hi,
There are some ICF's with insulation between two layers of concrete -- see the DowT here:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SolarHomes/constructionps.htm#ICF
You might also want to look just below this to the Van Geet house in Dry Stack block house area -- its pretty impressive in its energy use, and has lots of thermal mass inside the insulation.


You have probably already thought of these, but, just in case:

- To avoid AC, in addition to the insulation, sealing, and thermal mass, you need to keep your heat gain down. The worst source of heat gain is windows. Well designed overhangs on the windows and maybe some external shading devices. Maybe low heat gain windows on the west and east sides? Controlling solar gain is a real key point.

- I would think that in that climate that it cools down enough at night to use a night ventilation scheme to precool the inside thermal mass down for the next hot day would work. We use a whole house fan for this, and it works quite well, even though we have some unavoidable gain through east windows. We live in SW MT, which I think is somewhat similar to WY.

If you use a radiant floor heating system, this is a good match for solar heating, because it can make use of relatively low temperature heated water, which solar collectors are efficient at producing. But, if you use a boiler for backup, you would want (I think) to get a boiler that is compatible with using low temperature heated water. Some boilers can be damaged if the water temps are not kept high -- these are not a good match for solar. 

I know people really love the evac tubes, but I've yet to see anything (and I've looked pretty hard) that says they will do as well per dollar spent as ordinary flat plate collectors. They are somewhat more efficient in cloudy weather, but this is not by a large amount, and if you need quite high temperatures they do this better than flat plate collectors. You won't need very high temps with the radiant floor, and the better cloudy day performance is (I think) of marginal value when you consider that there just is not that much sun to collect on a cloudy days. So, I would at least consider the regular flat plate collectors as well as the evac tubes.
I did a winter long simulation of my new solar heating system using the collector efficiency data from the SRCC website for both flat plates and evac tubes. The best of the flat plates and best of the evac tubes were nearly equal in total heat produced on a winter long basis, and, at that time, the evac tubes were quite a bit more expensive. One thing that surprised me was the of the evac tubes that the SRCC has tested, there is quite a bit of performance difference -- the worst of the evac tubes they have tested are real dogs.
My 2 cents 

Gary


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Kevingr said:


> Here's some challenges. I hate to pay utility bills, my wife likes to turn on anything and everything without having to think about it. I like hot water heat, but still want air conditioning. She wants a traditional cottage style house (two story, 3 bedrooms on the second floor and full wrap around porch, blocking out the sun!), and I like what's most energy efficient. Whatever I want to do regarding solar or wind cannot be seen as you drive up to the house. She also dosen't want any type of open fire inside the house, in other words, no inside wood stove or fireplace (her fear of house fires).
> 
> So, given the housing requirement and restrictions from my spouse, what would you do? Cost is somewhat of a factor, we're not the Rockefeller's, but we can afford to put in a few extras as long as at some point during the ownership it'll pay for itself.


I'm a dreamer so here's how I dream your house...

I'd make the walls extremely thick, to make it less costly to heat and cool. Maybe a square bale house. Then I'd use the extra space in the interior walls for hidden storage. I'd put in a outside woodburner, piped for central heat. I'd put the burner in the ground so it would be easy to roll HUGE logs into it. (Save work on splitting the logs  ) 

The wrap around porch sounds great. It would be a great place to spend early mornings and late evenings, maybe even a sleeping porch in the summer? Could you make a solar panel roof on it, or make an upstairs wrap around porch also with the solar panels as the roof of the top story?

I'd also make a hidden basement with the entry under the stairs. I don't know if you are in tornado area, but here we are so that hidden basement would have a safe room with beds, cooking area, hand water pump, etc. plus a root cellar, and storage for non replaceable items such as family heirlooms, pictures, etc. Basically it would be a large self-contained apt. under the house.

Iâd add lots of extras such as either noise or voice activated lighting. 
Also an instant hot water box instead of a hot water heater tank.

Iâd add a light in the attic so I could see if I had to go up there to do any type of wiring or other repairs later. Also a light or series of lights in the crawl space under the house to assist if plumbing needs work in the future.

Since your in a cold part of the country Iâd use the pipe that doesnât leak if it freezes. You might already know about it, but itâs new to me.

Iâd make the house round instead of square.

Iâd have a room off the kitchen with a dirt floor so I could grow an indoor kitchen garden. Not an attached greenhouse, but an actual room of the house that gets heated and cooled along with the rest of the house. The room might have a sprinkler system in the ceiling for watering the plants. The walls would be similar to a bathroom shower. (Iâm making this up as I go so donât yell if it donât make since... LOL)

The guest room would have a hide-in-the-wall bed that could be pulled out when needed, but Iâd have lots of space to use for an exercise room or something else when I have no guests.

Iâd have a patio kitchen for cooking in the summer. It would be cool to have a earth oven, etc.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

We will have mass in our floor and a propane tankless as our back-up boiler.

We use one right now to heat all our domestic hot water as well as our in floor radiant( cement slab over a crawl space). I run the water at 110 most of the time. I can adjust it at will with a wall mounted remote. I am very partial to my endless hot water.

I am trying to design a system that will enable me to dump heat from the floor in the summer into either an outdoor hot tub or heat sink of some kind.
I did all our radiant and plumbing here and should have no problem with the new home other than it will be larger.

We will have overhangs for summer. We have also looked at the T-mass system and it would be are first choice if we can get it done cost effectively in our area. We will do most of the home ourselves and like the idea of having the structure closed in quickly with no rush to finish the outside. I do need to find the balance between what we need in thermal mass and insulation.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

painterswife said:


> We are in the same design process.
> 
> We are looking at 3 wall options.
> 
> ...


Each method has it's own virtues.

I am really in favor of Spray-in-place urethane foam insulation.

We did one inch on the interior of our walls, and it sealed nicely. Now I am hanging the R-30 batting, inside of that, before the interior walls get finished.

Urethane foam insulation is structural, deadens sound, stops all drafts, vapor and air leaks, and was very easy to apply.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Our present home is SIP. I love no drafts! It would be the easy way to go as we have worked with it before and it goes up quick.

Spray-in is an option but it would be my last as it I would want the whole wall sprayed( no bats, I hate them).

We are considering a steel building like you have done but it would be then wrapped with SIPs or something else so we have no thermal bridging. I have done alot of investigation into this system http://www.koreteck.com/ and like it alot. or http://www.acsys.net/

We want vaulted ceilings so no blown in insulation. My husband is very tall and feels claustraphobic otherwise.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Gary

I just had another look at this site. http://www.rbsdirect.com/build.htm I think it is exactly what we are looking.

It has exterior insulation, raceways for electrical( my biggest concern) an a finished surface on both sides that wil enable us to put on fnishes at our own pace. All this and interior mass.

I am going to do some serious research on this.

Jill


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Gary
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please let us know what you conclude.

Gary


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Kevingr said:


> want air conditioning.


Figure out how to avoid that. Earth sheltering, earth air tubes, shading, etc.



Kevingr said:


> 6" walls (that's a code requirement here)


Code - ugh. Don't buy where there is code.

Besides, go with thicker walls, do a thermal disconnect between the inner and outer walls, make it super insulated on all exposed surfaces.



Kevingr said:


> double pain windows


Go with triple or quadruple pane. Much better in both my own tests and studies I've read. You're about in my climate (northern Vermont). Double pane is not enough.



Kevingr said:


> grid tied electric but a few solar panels on a tracking system set away from the house


I wouldn't tie to the grid but that is because if you produce electricity here in Vermont they'll give you a credit but no cash. Costs you monthly and costs you to tie in. Then if there is a credit at the end of the year they "donate" back to themselves at the electric utility. Real sweet - for them. Maybe it is different in your state.

Cost out batteries carefully... Full lifetime costs.



Kevingr said:


> and a small wind plant (we have good wind around here)


I have a very good wind location but decided against it. Wind is not reliable enough even in a great location and it is too mechanically prone to failure. I see a _lot_ of dead windmills.



Kevingr said:


> outside wood boiler


Investigate the health effects carefully. I would recommend against this toy.



Kevingr said:


> I also want to do solar water pumping into plastic storage tanks in the basement of the house, the use a 12v pump to pressurize the house water system. I'm also thinking of some kind of outdoor water storage and collection (rain run off) for lawn and garden watering.


Do everything passive and gravity fed that you can. Try hard not to be dependent on mechanical or electrical systems for your basics.



Kevingr said:


> So, given the housing requirement and restrictions from my spouse, what would you do?


I would build it myself, talk her into one level (better for access as you get older), earth sheltered on the windward side, passive solar, gravity fed, large thermal mass, earth-air pipes, etc. You can see what I'm doing here:

http://sugarmtnfarm.com/blog/2006/12/roof-done-cottage-construction-pan.html

and in a lot of the posts on my blog there for the month of November and December.

What ever you do, do your dreams!

Cheers,

-Walter
in Vermont


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Our present home is SIP. I love no drafts! It would be the easy way to go as we have worked with it before and it goes up quick.
> 
> Spray-in is an option but it would be my last as it I would want the whole wall sprayed( no bats, I hate them).


Okay, though I fail to see why that would be a problem.

We did spray the entire walls and ceiling.

?





> ... We are considering a steel building like you have done but it would be then wrapped with SIPs or something else so we have no thermal bridging. I have done alot of investigation into this system http://www.koreteck.com/ and like it alot. or http://www.acsys.net/
> 
> We want vaulted ceilings so no blown in insulation. My husband is very tall and feels claustraphobic otherwise.


Yes, the entire wall and ceiling needs to be done in order to eliminate all thermal-bridging.

We have 14 foot ceilings, kind of cathedral like. Which is why we did spray in the foam on them. 

After having spent so many years living underwater, I like having a lot of head-room.



I found the steel building to be very easy to put up. After hiring the foundation to be poured. I only needed one other guy's help for 3 hours, using his crane to stand up the girders. Otherwise our 2400 square foot building was easy to put up by myself.

With R-40 on the walls, it should be relatively easy to heat and cool.


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## farmmaid (Jan 13, 2003)

We just built our retirement home in NY zone 5. Earth-wrapped, 8" poured concrete in E-blocks. Regular roof (MUCH better insulation than earth) with 32 feet of slanted windows facing south. Radient heat in the floor with an air tight wood stove. We have had nice weather here, the radient heat has not kicked on ( 3 different zones). We have had @ 6 fires in the stove and that is all so far, making curtains for the windows. Stepless home all handicap friendly...love the house. There is a root cellar (6' x 16') off the pantry next to the kitchen, 3 sides wrapped in the ground, 50 degrees constant...Joan


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

I had considered triple pane windows but I was reading somewhere that they are really not cost effective. The newer double pain windows that we have in our old farm house feel good, but on really cold days they are still cold. You folks that use triple or more pane windows are they also filled with some kind of gas like argon?

ET1 SS, regarding the spray foam you used. Why only spray in 1 inch and then batts over that? Why not fill the entire cavity with foam? Is it a cost issue? I assume you still use an inside vapor barrier and an outside wind barrier with the foam/batt combination? Sure sounds like it's be warm.

You know, I love my wife dearly, she is truely my best friend and I try to give her want she wants. On a daily basis she gives much and asks for little. But maybe I need to steer her in a slightly different direction . I like the idea of one level living, but we would need to address the tornado issue so some kind of "safe room" or partial basement would need to be put in.

Regarding earth tubes for cool air. I have heard of those, but have always wondered about radon gas. Are earth tubes really only an option where radon gas isn't an issue, or is radon an issue everywhere?


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Kevingr said:


> I had considered triple pane windows but I was reading somewhere that they are really not cost effective. The newer double pain windows that we have in our old farm house feel good, but on really cold days they are still cold. You folks that use triple or more pane windows are they also filled with some kind of gas like argon?


Low-E, argon filled, triple pane, vinyl was / is what HomeDepot has on it's shelves as the most easily bought ready to use windows.





> ... ET1 SS, regarding the spray foam you used. Why only spray in 1 inch and then batts over that? Why not fill the entire cavity with foam? Is it a cost issue? I assume you still use an inside vapor barrier and an outside wind barrier with the foam/batt combination? Sure sounds like it's be warm.


it is entirely a cost issue.

Styrofoam makes a vapor barrier and an air barrier. It sprays on as an epoxy, so it sticks to everything like an epoxy, even as it begins to expand to it's foam state. Once it hardens [about three minutes] it becomes structural. I sprayed directly onto steel panels, the outside of which is a 30-year backed on enamel finish [forest green]. So I did nothing to the outside. I do plan to build a wrap around porch however. It out-gasses nitrogen, and is done out-gassing within an hour. I never used any breathing respirators and I never smelled anything. 

When you put your hand inside of a styrofoam ice chest, how much draft is inside? Not much. foam makes a good vapour / air barrier. It seals nicely. But it does cost about $400 per 600 sq ft at one inch thickness. I have learned how to stretch it to 1,000 sq ft consistently, but I did not learn the 'secret' until I was almost done.





> ... Regarding earth tubes for cool air. I have heard of those, but have always wondered about radon gas. Are earth tubes really only an option where radon gas isn't an issue, or is radon an issue everywhere?


It is always an issue when dealing with concrete.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

One other thing.

I put PEX tubing underneath the floors. I laid out a big spiral, running along the walls one foot in form the walls. And a second time around in the next frame bay, and then continuing in I laid it into every other frame [in one bay and skipping the next] until I got to the center of the room. So the floor along the walls is just slightly warmer.

In front of the front doors, double steel doors, is a sunken deck that is graded just a tiny amount. At one side where it slopes to is a deck drain leading into our grey water system. This entire entryway is lined with aluminum flashing and has like "bar-maid's rubber floor mats" laid out on it. This entryway also has radiant heating. So I am hoping that snow, ice, and rain will be sluffed off here and the boots can be stored here on the heated floor while the water drains away.

Designing this did take some effort as I was drawing the floor joist system.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Kevingr said:


> I had considered triple pane windows but I was reading somewhere that they are really not cost effective.


I make my own. 1 pane glass on the outside, 1 pane glass on the inside, then tedlar (shrink film) between. I've done up to six layers. Works great. My oldest window like that is 15 years old and stops the -45Â°F frost from coming through while the hinges on the door, the knob and nails are showing frost inside. It works very well.

We scavenged 66 huge single pane windows in frames from an IBM office building they were renovating. This is the source of the panes for our tiny cottage. We'll pair them up as described above.



> Regarding earth tubes for cool air. I have heard of those, but have always wondered about radon gas. Are earth tubes really only an option where radon gas isn't an issue, or is radon an issue everywhere?


We are in Vermont = high radon. Radon is only a problem if you make the air sit. If you keep bringing in fresh air that actually reduces the radon concentration. The other thing is connect your pipes or if you like wrap them in plastic sheeting. That stops the radon from getting into the pipes to begin with. Our old farm house had high radon (6) before I did the earth air pipes (we have a dirt cellar under the whole house) but low after. Ventilation a.k.a. dilution is the solution to pollution.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

I'm looking for spray in foam equipment (not cans). Any suggestions?


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

highlands said:


> I'm looking for spray in foam equipment (not cans). Any suggestions?


'Froth-pak' [or a generic] is what you want. It is made by DOW. Find it here:

http://www.dow.com/buildingproducts/frothpak/refill.htm

I just sprayed 6400 sq ft of the generic foam in our home. I got it from here:

http://www.efi.org/wholesale/

Both MSDS sheets are the same. The generic is called 'touch-n-seal'. It's propellant is nitrogen, which is outgased as it cures.

I found right at the end of our project that by soaking each tank in 105 degree water [I floated them in our jacuzzi], the hot chemical will produce almost twice the finished foam. So while they guarantee 600 sq ft of foam from each kit, I was able to get as much as 1,000 - 1,200 from each set of tanks.

If you spray up overhead, wear a mosquito jacket with hood. The tiny flecks of over-spray that settle down onto you can be nasty in a beard otherwise. It can be sprayed over-head, and I did. It does stick really well, but I did observe some over-spray that fell. And it is an epoxy, so it sticks and hardens onto anything it touches. So wear some netting.


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## Dubai Vol (Mar 22, 2006)

Just a quick "thanks" to *ET1 SS* and *highlands* for sharing their knowledge. You have both been very helpful to me in my dream home design work. If you get to southeast Tennessee there is dinner and frosty beverages waiting for you and anyone you care to bring along!


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Thank you Dubai Vol,

Bless you.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

Kevingr said:


> Regarding earth tubes for cool air. I have heard of those, but have always wondered about radon gas. Are earth tubes really only an option where radon gas isn't an issue, or is radon an issue everywhere?


Earth tubes shouldn't be picking up anything from the soil, just carrying air through the ground but sealed from it. They may have a few drain holes, but not enough to cause any radon concerns. However, to work effectively, earth tubes need to be 8 to 12 inches in diameter, or larger, be buried 6 to 8 feet deep at least, and be a coule of hundred feed long, at the depth mentioned.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Radioactive isotopes and their emitted particles may become airborne. Flowing in the air from any source.

More so, when you have forced air flow. [Simply because with the higher force of flowing air, it is capable of carrying more ions in it].


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## Dubai Vol (Mar 22, 2006)

WisJim said:


> earth tubes need to be 8 to 12 inches in diameter, or larger, be buried 6 to 8 feet deep at least, and be a couple of hundred feed long, at the depth mentioned.


I'm looking at a network of 4-inch tubes. Yes you need more, but the length can be less, and the material cost works out better. But even then I figure on 100 feet, all with a downward slope from the house for drainage, and only 45 degree elbows, with a light cable run through the tubes so that I can "pig" the lines (pull a cleaning brush through them) with a bleach solution. Low tech but effective.

Did I mention using the earth tubes as the air supply for the heat pump condenser/evaporator? LOTS of money to be saved there even if I never use the earth tubes directly for heating/cooling.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

If you were going to bury 4" PVC pipes, 45 degree connections, graded to allow drainage, all leading to a nearby ravine where is the air-intake; then at that location leave the end of the pipe threaded.

Once a year, on a hot summer day, you could thread on a cap, sealing the pipes, and fill them with hot soapy bleach water. Let soak for an hour and then remove the cap. The soapy water will drain away along with any dust buildup.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Dubai Vol said:


> Just a quick "thanks" to *ET1 SS* and *highlands* for sharing their knowledge. You have both been very helpful to me in my dream home design work. If you get to southeast Tennessee there is dinner and frosty beverages waiting for you and anyone you care to bring along!


*grin* We'll have to share that dinner and brew virtually as I'm not a travelin' man a'tal. My roots have sunk too deep into the bedrock of Vermont. 

Have fun with your dream house and do write about it here on Homesteading Today so we can all watch!


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## Dubai Vol (Mar 22, 2006)

highlands said:


> *grin* We'll have to share that dinner and brew virtually as I'm not a travelin' man a'tal. My roots have sunk too deep into the bedrock of Vermont.
> 
> Have fun with your dream house and do write about it here on Homesteading Today so we can all watch!


Thanks, will do, and thanks *ET1 SS * I like the "cap and fill" idea for the earth tubes. Very clever.

I have now settled on a roof design: Groin vaults. And I didn't just pick it for the name!


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Dubai Vol said:


> Thanks, will do, and thanks *ET1 SS * I like the "cap and fill" idea for the earth tubes. Very clever.
> 
> I have now settled on a roof design: Groin vaults. And I didn't just pick it for the name!


I am entirely with you on being able to clean it all, but I have seen strings rot; and pulling stuff through pipe can be hard.

By the way, when I bought our PEX tubing, it came in a 1,000 foot roll. I used 600 foot of it, in laying out a single radiant floor heating loop.

Now I have 400 foot of 5/8 inch PEX tubing left over.

I think that when I get the trench open for the black water [our black water is going to leave the house coming from a transfer-station pump going through the foundation wall and then 300 foot to the location of the leech field], when that trench to the leechfield is open I want to lay-out this 400 foot of PEX in a 200 foot loop in that trench. Then when it is all buried, I could plumb it in as a secondary loop in our radiant system. In the summer, with the heat turned off, if I circulated water through this buried ground loop, and then through the floors; I think it may help to cool the house. Or at least to cool the floors.


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## Guy_Incognito (Jul 4, 2006)

Here's a link to the basics involved with earth cooling/warming :

http://www.mb-soft.com/solar/intake.html

Bit of an excessive use of exclamation marks in my opinion, but there's some good info in calculating the capacity of the system.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i won't rehash all of the dream details, but if i ever built a house, it would have some true southern exposure. my house was built facing the road which runs NE-SW. (GRR)


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

I used a double 2x4 exterior walls ( 24" oc outside, 16"oc inside....common jointing point is a 9"x 3/4" plywood top plate ) with 1" foam board on the outside sheathing, on well insulated slab/full basement combo when building 25 years ago....and that's considerably south of MN.....never regreted it.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

MELOC said:


> i won't rehash all of the dream details, but if i ever built a house, it would have some true southern exposure. my house was built facing the road which runs NE-SW. (GRR)


I agree that this is important.

I did not lay out our house parallel to the road either. I made a sundial on the driveway to establish a True rose compass, and then used a hand magnetic compass as we laid out each flag.

Then when the crew was setting up the foundation forms, I was right there confirming it. To make sure that our house is truly N-S oriented.

It looks slightly odd from the road, as most houses are squared to the road.




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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I'd suggest you go with a metal roof. There is a new solar panel product that will be gaining market share real soon. It is a thin film that sticks to a smooth metal surface. Mother Earth News has an article on it. Right now I think it is too expensive, but if you have a metal roof already in place, you'll be ready to add it when the price drops.
By careful placement of closets, you can gain some insulation by having them on exterior walls. I think an exterior Wood Boiler is an energy hog. Sounds like DW isn't pulling in the same direction you are? Having your living space on one floor and guest bedrooms up stairs would allow you to only heat the aras you need, yet expand when needed. South facing sun room that you can shut down/ close off at night and only open when there is some heat gain to be had. Then use that space when you have guests and need the extra space. With careful planning you and DW can heat a smaller space, yet be able to open up rooms/areas when more people are sharing your home.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

MELOC said:


> i won't rehash all of the dream details, but if i ever built a house, it would have some true southern exposure. my house was built facing the road which runs NE-SW. (GRR)


Evaluate your site carefully. You may not want a solar south orientation because there might be a different angle, perhaps 10 or 20 degrees either way, that optimizes the number of hours of sunlight and the heat.

I did this for our site and found that going with a bit east of solar south made a big difference for us. There is a mountain ridge to our west. Ironically that put us dead on the _magnetic_ north-south axis. My wife now jokes that now she'll finally be able to tell the compass points.


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## Rick Allen (Jun 5, 2006)

A few thoughts on your project:

A stud wall with 2x10 or 2x12 top and bottom plates and 2x4 wall studs staggered on the inside and outside provides a wall that has no insulation breaks except around windows and doors. If you want a tight efficient house this is the way to go.

The problem they found with envelope houses back in the 70's, these houses had double walls with an airspace between, was that if there was a fire this air space between the walls acted like a chimeny and the houses burned super fast. Insurance cost could also be an issue for this type construction. Since then the thicker wall described in my first paragraph was found to work as well without increasing risk. 

Wood heat is only economical if you don't have to buy your wood. If you buy the cost per BTU is one of the most expensive.

A passive solar house should have some kind of heat sink to reduce daytime temps in the home. 

Radiant slab heating is not a good choice if you want to use your insulated slab for daytime heat storage. For best results your slab should be cooler then air temps in order for heat to migrate into the entire slab during daylight periods. The transfer won't work as well if you've been introducing heat into the slab during the night via hot water.

Porches can be located on the north side where sun won't be blocked. In hot summer months this is the place to be for outside living. We live in a passive solar house and the porch is not missed because with all our windows we have an outside feel to all our living spaces.

Remember the planning is usually lots more fun then the actual labor. 
God Bless. /RA


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## mondakkid (Oct 17, 2006)

Hi All Readers....There has been some neat post on passive/active solar houses...Would anyone care to share with us some of your floor plans. I know this is hard for some of us because we do not know how to add this kind of file to our message..hope to get some results..thanks.


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## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

If you go radiant in-floor heat, go radiant a/c, too. I think you are far enough north to do it. All you need do is bury coils in the ground and circulate the water from those, or use coils suspended in a pond, or use water pumped up from one sandpoint well and back down into another. When it's hot, disconnect your heat loop and open your cooling loop. This works great in low humidity areas (not in the South where I am, due to condensation on floor).

I have a shop that is radiant heated. It is the BEST! I love the flexibility. I am now using a hot water heater (gas), but the system is easily adaptable to solar collectors on the roof whenever I wish to add them.

Do superinsulate. High upfront costs, but it pays for itself. I insulated my wood post metal sided shop with mass insulation (fiberglass) and also an outer layer of "double bubble" white/silver. High initial cost, but it has saved me lots on heating! We turned the silver side out here in the South to reflect sun during our frequent 100-degree days. It'll be 78 inside the closed shop on the hottest days with no a/c. And this is an unsheathed metal sided building. I would definitely do it on a home.

Another thing I'd do if I were building a home with a basement is, I would locate the wood stove downstairs, use the basement floor for radiant coils, then just cut vents in each room to vent to the basement and cover them with register grilles. I know a guy who has a 2-story log home he built like this, with vents from each story down to the one below. He starts a small fire in his basement wood stove, then goes to the top floor and cracks the windows open an inch. The heat rises by convection, and all is toasty warm. He keeps the fire small, and consumes less wood, because "otherwise it will drive you out of the house!"

He built into a hillside, so he has a basement exit. All his ashes and wood go in and out there, not into the main living quarters. Wish my wood stove was like that, rather than in the living room!


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## TechGuy (Oct 25, 2006)

Question about Installing Radiant heated floors:

Can this be done over tile floors? I am concerned if the tile grout line is over one of the tube lines or if the tube pushed up the tile due to some walking caused by expansion/retraction cycle. Has anyone installed Radiant heating over tile? Pros/cons?

FWIW: I was planning on having a lot of areas tiled instead of hardwood (ie hall ways, kitchen, bathrooms, maybe even the family room). Tile is easy to maintain and I've had better wear than with hardwood.

My other option would be to use cast iron baseboard radiators.

Thanks


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## TechGuy (Oct 25, 2006)

ET1 SS said:


> Radioactive isotopes and their emitted particles may become airborne. Flowing in the air from any source.
> 
> More so, when you have forced air flow. [Simply because with the higher force of flowing air, it is capable of carrying more ions in it].


Another consideration is Mold and Mildew accumulating in the pipes. The air flowing through the earth pipes would collect condensation, and probably would be an idea place for mold, mildew and other unpleasant lifeforms to thrive. I think the better option would to use water/gycol solution instead and use an heat exchanger. It probably would not be to difficult to use salavaged A\C radiators to construct an efficient heat exchanger.

I think the biggest energy hog would be the blower (assuming its distributed using central air). For my home I was looking to use a set of smaller blowers located near the distribution points so that cooling could be turned on just the rooms that need cooling. The disadvantage would be the additional costs for the equipement and installation. There are smaller A/C blowers designed for mobile homes and boats that could probably be used.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

So long as you have a method of cleaning the pipes; mold build up should not be bad. I have seen old air ducts where they had no intention of being able to clean them, and after a few decades the mice droppings, mold, ick, and more ick was really thick.

Moving stuff around whether it be air or water will require power.

A circ pump and /or blowers; either way they consume power.


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