# What breed combinations would you NOT do?



## AverageJo

Just for the fun of it, I was trying to figure out what cross-bred dogs would you NOT go for. There are the Labrador Retrievers crossed with a Poodle to get the Labra-doodle, etc. What would be the worst cross in your opinion?

I was just wondering what someone would call a Bull Dog crossed with a Shih Tzu..... :hysterical:

Or a Pit Bull crossed with a Poodle... Would it be called a PitPoo? Or a BullDoodle?


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## BarbadosSheep

Personally, I would not cross anything except it's own breed. I think crossing can produce some good dogs at times, but it's kind of a shame to destory the gene pool of any breed by crossing in a different breed, especially on the rare breeds.

I did recently read about a litter that was half St. Bernard and half daschund. Can't even imagine how that looked! I saw a pic of a pug/yorkie cross that was adorable though. It looked a lot like a border terrier.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl

The most sick and sorry sight that still haunts me is a Aussie Heeler with a Bassett Hound. 
We had a pet black/golden lab cross that was a gem as a kid dog. Happy, play play play, but had a surprising degree of protection over his charges. Well, the story is - I had slept outside on the lawn one night, and in the morning was surprised to wake up to the dog standing over me growling and barking at our neighbor who regularly just let himself through the gate and did a little "hello the house" as he stepped inside. As soon as I was awake, it was like nothing ever happened.


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## pancho

Never cross anything with a pit bull.


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## Wolf Flower

Labradoodles and Goldendoodles. I don't know why anyone thought it would be a good idea to cross these breeds--it seems to bring out the worst of both. The energy and power of the Lab with the mischevious nature of the Standard Poodle. Smart, yes, but without much desire to please the owner. Plus a high-maintenance coat. Why? Yeah, I know, the original intent was to create a guide/service dog that doesn't shed. If that had actually been accomplished it might be a good thing, but what's happened now is everyone is throwing any old Lab and Poodle together to sell high-priced mutts. 

I know one Labradoodle that is actually a pretty nice dog. The rest are all crazy. I don't know anyone who uses one as a service dog.

In fact, I don't like any of the "designer" mixed-breeds that seem to be the rage right now. I see a lot of them in my grooming shop. Some are nice little dogs, but why would you spend $1200 for a mutt?? The other day a lady made an appointment for a "shorkie". I didn't even ask what that is, I just wrote down "Yorkie x".

I do like Lab crossed with German Shepherd. Has the protective qualities of the GSD and the stable, fearless temperament of the Lab. High energy, yes, but eager to please, loyal, and devoted. I had a "shepador" as my first dog, and I coudn't have asked for a better one. However, I don't think people should start deliberately breeding them!

I don't have a problem with people crossbreeding if it is for a working purpose. LGD, hunting dogs, etc. Some people swear by certain F1 crossbreds. In Europe, GSDs, Malinois, and Dutch Shepherds are often crossed for police work. I don't have a problem with that.


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## Wolf Flower

pancho said:


> Never cross anything with a pit bull.


What about using the Pit Bull to improve other breeds, as you mentioned before?

Some hunters really seem to like Pit crosses for hog dogs.


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## pancho

Wolf Flower said:


> What about using the Pit Bull to improve other breeds, as you mentioned before?
> 
> Some hunters really seem to like Pit crosses for hog dogs.


Those crosses were done by experienced breeders and for several generations the puppies were not sold. They were used by the breeders only and were registered with their kennel clubs with the agreement the animals would not be sold and used only for the purpose they were intended for.

Yes, many hog hunters will use cross breds.
The main reason for not crossing them as it makes for a very dangerous and unpredictable dog.


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## Wolf Flower

pancho said:


> The main reason for not crossing them as it makes for a very dangerous and unpredictable dog.


I suppose it could, if the resulting cross is HA and does not have stable temperament.

What do you think of the crossbred "bandogs", and have you heard of Donovan's Pinscher? The latter is a mix of Pit Bull and Malinois/Dutch Shepherd, with some Mastiff breed I believe.


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## TriWinkle

A chihuahua and a great dane? A basset hound and a geyhound?


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## citxmech

pancho said:


> Never cross anything with a pit bull.


One of the best dogs I ever had was a Pit/Ridgeback cross - maybe it was a fluke - but the dog was totally sweet and easy going.


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## BarbadosSheep

My daughter's pit bull mix is about the sweetest dog I have ever seen. She was a pregnant stray when my daughter took her in. She's pretty old now still just as sweet and docile as can be.


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## pancho

Wolf Flower said:


> I suppose it could, if the resulting cross is HA and does not have stable temperament.
> 
> What do you think of the crossbred "bandogs", and have you heard of Donovan's Pinscher? The latter is a mix of Pit Bull and Malinois/Dutch Shepherd, with some Mastiff breed I believe.


There are many dogs named Pinscher. Colby's Pinscher was the first I can think of but there have been so many since then. Haven't heard about Donovans but then I am not that interested in cross breds, especially with some pit thrown in the mix.
Bandogs were popular at one time. It didn't last long. There are still a few around but they usually call them by another name. 99% of the blue pit bulls are bandogs. At one time bandog meant, a large dog kept on a chain.

Most dogs will bit a person. Most just can't do much damage and will run if you fight back. When one of those breeds are crossed with the pit bull it gives them more strength and much more courage. They are much more likely to attack and really do some damage.


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## citxmech

pancho said:


> Most dogs will bit(e) a person. Most just can't do much damage and will run if you fight back. When one of those breeds are crossed with the pit bull it gives them more strength and much more courage. They are much more likely to attack and really do some damage.


With the bully breeds, they seem to lack any caution response found in most other dogs. When "turned-on" Pits will just charge right in. Quite a few are fear-biters too. The LGDs I've seen are courageous enough to have little to no fear-biting tendency, but they also seem to think about how to approach a threat more than just about any other dog - which is a good thing given their size and strength. That's one of the things I like the best about LGDs.


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## pancho

citxmech said:


> With the bully breeds, they seem to lack any caution response found in most other dogs. When "turned-on" Pits will just charge right in. Quite a few are fear-biters too. The LGDs I've seen are courageous enough to have little to no fear-biting tendency, but they also seem to think about how to approach a threat more than just about any other dog - which is a good thing given their size and strength. That's one of the things I like the best about LGDs.


Not many pit bulls are fear bitters. What do they have to fear. They were bred to not show fear or even have it.
Too many people think they know what a pit bull looks like. Many are mistaken. The dog they call a pit bull is usually a bully or a crossbreed or any other dog with a large head and wide chest. Both are considered faults for the pit bull. Most people don't know this as many consider the wider the chest and bigger the head the better.


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## BarbadosSheep

pancho said:


> Not many pit bulls are fear bitters. What do they have to fear. They were bred to not show fear or even have it.
> Too many people think they know what a pit bull looks like. Many are mistaken. The dog they call a pit bull is usually a bully or a crossbreed or any other dog with a large head and wide chest. Both are considered faults for the pit bull. Most people don't know this as many consider the wider the chest and bigger the head the better.


yep.....that's why the news always reports dog attacks as pit bull attacks. Anything with a big blocky head is labeld "pit bull". Here's a fun test.....see who can find the pit bull among these 25 pictures

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html


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## pancho

BarbadosSheep said:


> yep.....that's why the news always reports dog attacks as pit bull attacks. Anything with a big blocky head is labeld "pit bull". Here's a fun test.....see who can find the pit bull among these 25 pictures
> 
> http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html


Easy to pick the pit bull out of that line up.
Made a little easier as I knew the dog in the picture.


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## BarbadosSheep

pancho said:


> Easy to pick the pit bull out of that line up.
> Made a little easier as I knew the dog in the picture.


yep...but you know the breed. Most people see a dog with a blocky head and assume it's a pit or pit mix.


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## pancho

BarbadosSheep said:


> yep...but you know the breed. Most people see a dog with a blocky head and assume it's a pit or pit mix.


Wonder how many people pick the wrong dog?
Bet quite a few.


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## BarbadosSheep

pancho said:


> Wonder how many people pick the wrong dog?
> Bet quite a few.


I bet most pick the wrong dog first.


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## pancho

BarbadosSheep said:


> I bet most pick the wrong dog first.


It could be even harder. There is one similiar to that with pics of puppies.


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## citxmech

pancho said:


> Not many pit bulls are fear bitters. What do they have to fear. They were bred to not show fear or even have it.
> Too many people think they know what a pit bull looks like. Many are mistaken. The dog they call a pit bull is usually a bully or a crossbreed or any other dog with a large head and wide chest. Both are considered faults for the pit bull. Most people don't know this as many consider the wider the chest and bigger the head the better.


I completely agree that most of the "Pits" you see in shelters are some unknown mix - usually unintentional crosses due to neglectful and/or abusive owners. Ether way, IMHO, a life of abuse and neglect will make any dog unstable regardless of breeding.


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## mekasmom

AverageJo said:


> Just for the fun of it, I was trying to figure out what cross-bred dogs would you NOT go for.
> 
> Or a Pit Bull crossed with a Poodle... Would it be called a PitPoo? Or a BullDoodle?


I think the absolute worst cross would be a pit with an LGD or Mastiff breed. Can you imagine that aggressiveness crossed with a giant breed? Bad idea all the way around. It would especially be bad with some of the harder LGDs that have such a territorial guarding instinct. It would be horrible.

Another cross I would not do would be anything super hyper with a pit like your pitdoodle idea.


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## Rock

Fila w a jack russel


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## mekasmom

Wolf Flower said:


> Labradoodles and Goldendoodles. I don't know why anyone thought it would be a good idea to cross these breeds


Labradoodles are super hyper. I like the goldendoodles. I have see a lot of them at the vets off and on. They seem nice, and are beautiful.

I wouldn't cross a St. Bernard with a poodle. They are too big to be that hyper.

There are some breeds I wouldn't cross a corgi with, such as a basset. Short legs are dominant, so the poor things would be dragging their wee-wees on the ground. I would be careful with crossing too many short nosed breeds at once just for health reasons too.


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## Wolf Flower

mekasmom said:


> I think the absolute worst cross would be a pit with an LGD or Mastiff breed. Can you imagine that aggressiveness crossed with a giant breed? Bad idea all the way around.


As you might expect, there are lots of people doing just that--breeding Pit Bulls with Mastiff-type breeds to make the "ultimate personal protection dog".


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## citxmech

Wolf Flower said:


> As you might expect, there are lots of people doing just that--breeding Pit Bulls with Mastiff-type breeds to make the "ultimate personal protection dog".


Isn't that sort-of what the Dogo Argentino is? They are actually pretty decent dogs for right person - but I wouldn't want anything bred to be all-white. Genetically that's a bad combo.


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## Wolf Flower

citxmech said:


> Isn't that sort-of what the Dogo Argentino is?


I don't think the Dogo has Pit Bull ancestry, they were bred from Boxers and hunting breeds and a South American fighting dog, if I recall correctly.


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## citxmech

Wolf Flower said:


> I don't think the Dogo has Pit Bull ancestry, they were bred from Boxers and hunting breeds and a South American fighting dog, if I recall correctly.


You are correct! According to Wiki:

"In the 1928, Antonio Nores Martinez. a medical doctor, professor and surgeon, set out to breed a big game hunting dog that was also capable of being a loyal pet and guard dog. Antonio Martinez picked the Cordoba Fighting Dog to be the base for the breed.[19] This breed is extinct today but was described as a large and ferocious dog that was a great hunter. He crossed it with the Great Dane, Boxer, Spanish Mastiff, Old English Bulldog, Bull Terrier, Great Pyrenees, Pointer, Irish Wolfhound and Dogue de Bordeaux.[19] Nores Martinez continued to develop the breed via selective breeding to introduce the desired traits. Dr. Raul Zeballos introduced the Dogo Argentino to the United States in 1970."

Interesting cocktail there, nonetheless. . .


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## rickfrosty

I had a BIG gorgeous choc/gold brindle Bull Mastiff/Black Lab cross. The father was the biggest B. Lab anyone had seen (so prolly not pure), but what a wonderful dog ! A smart Bull Mastiff. Conan.
The only small dog I've ever had was specially bred by a woman here in ME - Japanese Chin w/American Eskimo Mini - that too was just a wonderful dog. Lost my Tasha in divorce, but I still can love her.
My last guy was a Hollandsey Herder w/something ? Also a great dog - Buster.
Now I want a medium-sized dog who will scare the bejesus out of any would-be burglar & I have thought of some sort of pit cross ?


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## pancho

Rock said:


> Fila w a jack russel


Don't think it would be a good cross but I would like to have a video of the mating.


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## pancho

Wolf Flower said:


> I don't think the Dogo has Pit Bull ancestry, they were bred from Boxers and hunting breeds and a South American fighting dog, if I recall correctly.


A little pointer in that mix also.


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## Pops2

Wolf Flower said:


> As you might expect, there are lots of people doing just that--breeding Pit Bulls with Mastiff-type breeds to make the "ultimate personal protection dog".


as w/ any breeding venue, most are morons trying to emulate the few really good ones. as far as i know you still can't reach Joe L via interweb. he stayed w/ F1s for a LONG time before he felt ready to move on. his pups are still the top of the line, worth a lot more than they cost & well worth the wait to get one. only problem is that it's easier to infiltrate the mob than to get on his pup list. still you'll break a dozen maligators before you can get one of joe's dogs to slow down.


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## Pops2

Wolf Flower said:


> I don't think the Dogo has Pit Bull ancestry, they were bred from Boxers and hunting breeds and a South American fighting dog, if I recall correctly.


actually the Cordoba was a mix of spanish mastives (alano, mastin, campaneiro etc) & match dogs imported mostly from britain & the USA. the spanish tend to match an uglier version of country rules & like big dogs, but heavier & catchweight pit bulldogs will totally work the much bigger mastives. so they always wind up crossing them in. the presa canario was made the same way & is a reasonable facsimile of the cordoba.


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## Pops2

rickfrosty said:


> Now I want a medium-sized dog who will scare the bejesus out of any would-be burglar & I have thought of some sort of pit cross ?


a small mal, dutch or a queensland heeler would all fit the bill. the medium size makes it harder but these will be the breeds hardest to break in a fight. i don't reccomend pit bulldogs, not because they can't, but because if you have to go to court you'll get crushed by the jury of ignorant peers.


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## Wolf Flower

Pops2 said:


> a small mal, dutch or a queensland heeler would all fit the bill. the medium size makes it harder but these will be the breeds hardest to break in a fight. i don't reccomend pit bulldogs, not because they can't, but because if you have to go to court you'll get crushed by the jury of ignorant peers.


Malinois and Dutchies have a HIGH energy level, Mals have been described as a "German Shepherd on crack", so be prepared for that! What they lack in size they make up for in drive and determination; I would not want to be on the receiving end of an angry Mal. I think a Queensland Heeler or Australian Cattle Dog (are they the same breed?) is one of the best medium-size watchdogs, they are very loyal and obedient to master but can be very protective and distrustful of strangers, with a definite propensity to back up their bark with a bite. 

I don't think a Pit Bull would make a good guard dog. Most are friendly and not human-aggressive, even to strangers.


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## pancho

Wolf Flower said:


> I don't think a Pit Bull would make a good guard dog. Most are friendly and not human-aggressive, even to strangers.


Then if you do find one that is a good guard dog you have to accept the consequences of what might happen. Very good fencing should be a priority.

I had one that would regulary jump through a window to get into my house if she happened to see anyone except for my family. If I stood up first she was alright. If a family member was not in her sight when another person was she immediately went through the window.


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## Kwings

rickfrosty said:


> I had a BIG gorgeous choc/gold brindle Bull Mastiff/Black Lab cross. The father was the biggest B. Lab anyone had seen (so prolly not pure), but what a wonderful dog ! A smart Bull Mastiff. Conan.
> The only small dog I've ever had was specially bred by a woman here in ME - Japanese Chin w/American Eskimo Mini - that too was just a wonderful dog. Lost my Tasha in divorce, but I still can love her.
> My last guy was a Hollandsey Herder w/something ? Also a great dog - Buster.
> Now I want a medium-sized dog who will scare the bejesus out of any would-be burglar & I have thought of some sort of pit cross ?


Really depends on the dog if you go with a pit cross. My Boxer/Lab/Pit mix is a big marshmallow, but she's protective of me in a non-aggressive way. If there's a strange person (mostly men) in the house that I haven't introduced her to (when i have new guests they meet my dog so she knows that I invited them in) She will stand or sit between me and them, if they move she will move so she is between me and the strange persons. 

For instance i had two guys over from work so that they could till my garden for me a few years ago. She loved them, would let them pet her and would greet them and go up to them in full tail wagging glee. But when all that was over she positioned herself between me (i was on the deck) and them (in the yard) she was laying in a sun spot and lounging around lazily enjoying her doggy ways. but when they moved to the other side of the yard she would move to so she was between us. 

She also barks at anyone coming near the fence if i'm not outside. for instance she will bark at my neighbor the whole time he's near the fence if i'm not there but the second i'm outside that same guy can reach full over the fence and pet her and she licks and tail wags and all is ok because mommy is here. 

She's a great watch dog, and always alerts me when something isn't right around the house. But on the other side I've seen Pits and pit mixes whose house you could break into and they'd greet the burglar at the door with a smile and a wagging tail. Its kind of a crap shoot. 

It doesn't help that many of those mixes end up in abusive homes and you get to have the pleasure of working them through their extra baggage. Angel had fear aggression when I got her, thankfully I have a friend who is a dog trainer specializing in dog behavioral training, and we got her straightened out pretty quick. She's a wonderful dog now and i have no problems with her great with kids and loves everyone she meets. 

But back on topic, I'm against breeding anything short with something tall, corgi mixes with large dogs is just wrong. Their poor stubby little legs lol.


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## GrannyCarol

I've groomed a few Peke/Pom crosses and that is usually the worst of the two breeds in temperament - Poms can be fearful and high strung, but nip rather than biting. Pekes lack bite inhibition, but are so laid back it isn't a big deal. The mix seems to get the fearful and lack of bite inhibition - not a good mix.


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## pancho

Many times people will judge an entire breed or even crossbreds by one single dog.
One dog may have a different temperment than most but that does not make it an example of the breed or combination of breeds.
When it comes to crossbreeds it is very hard to know before they are grown how they will act when they are mature. Especially if the parents were not known. Sometimes the parents are not even the breeds that people think they are.
Sometimes it is hard to tell the breed of a dog just by looking at it. It is much harder to look at a crossbred and decide what breeds might have made it.


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## BarbadosSheep

Yep...you are right....many times we judge an entire breed by our exposure to only a few individual animals. For example, I never cared for chihuahuas. I like the long coated ones though; every one I have ever met has been a wonderful and outgoing dog. But the smooth ones were always nervous, snippy, yappy and shaky. Well, last week my daughter got her rescue chihuahua from a lady in Ohio. She 3.3 pounds, delicate and dainty and a bundle of fun. She is so out-going and playful and really smart too. I am surprised at how much I like her and how well she fit into her new home. I totally misjudged that breed. There are good ones out there!


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## pancho

BarbadosSheep said:


> Yep...you are right....many times we judge an entire breed by our exposure to only a few individual animals. For example, I never cared for chihuahuas. I like the long coated ones though; every one I have ever met has been a wonderful and outgoing dog. But the smooth ones were always nervous, snippy, yappy and shaky. Well, last week my daughter got her rescue chihuahua from a lady in Ohio. She 3.3 pounds, delicate and dainty and a bundle of fun. She is so out-going and playful and really smart too. I am surprised at how much I like her and how well she fit into her new home. I totally misjudged that breed. There are good ones out there!


Yes, but it is nearly impossible to tell someone different who judges a breed by a dog or two. Even if the breed has been developed for hundreds of years for a single purpose.
I feel the same way about cats. Never seen one worth anything. Then I got to know a cat belonging to a friend. He changed my mind about that cat, still pretty much believe the same about all others though.


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## yarrow

pancho said:


> Never cross anything with a pit bull.


We were NOT the breeders.. but years ago some folks ( who sadly, I knew fought their pitbulls..they had a litter of mixed puppies.. the dad also had rabbit hunting beagles)... the kids were going around the neighborhood trying to sell these wormy puppies for $5 (or daddy was gonna use them as *bait*)... they showed up on our doorstep, with the last one.. a scrawny little female..I tell them to keep going.. Hubby turns to me.. (tears in his eyes)... long story short.. $5 (plus over $200 more to get her well!!!) we added JamieJune the pitbeagle to our family... she was hands down one of the best dogs we ever had the pleasure of sharing our lives with... we lost her to cancer last year (I will say, we were very consistent with her training as a puppy.. there were times when small, she could be trying.. but as an adult. she was super smart/great with small children and even small animals... we have a nubian farm.. she LOVED the newborns -and was the ONLY dog besides the LGDs that we ever trusted *out-of-sight* with the babies...) She was a very special old gal.. I'm sure if we were to own another 100 pitbeagles (esp from fighting lines AND hunting lines).. we would never again get a JamieJune.

susie, mo ozarks


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## Kwings

pancho said:


> Many times people will judge an entire breed or even crossbreds by one single dog.
> One dog may have a different temperment than most but that does not make it an example of the breed or combination of breeds.
> When it comes to crossbreeds it is very hard to know before they are grown how they will act when they are mature. Especially if the parents were not known. Sometimes the parents are not even the breeds that people think they are.
> Sometimes it is hard to tell the breed of a dog just by looking at it. It is much harder to look at a crossbred and decide what breeds might have made it.


True story. When i look at my local shelter's site I wonder if they just pull two dog breed names out of a hat and go with it. Some of the time i can agree with their guess of the breeds but other times i think they are crazy lol.


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## BoldViolet

Rock said:


> Fila w a jack russel


In all honesty, this is the most horrifying thought of the bunch.


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## Pops2

Kwings said:


> True story. When i look at my local shelter's site* I wonder if they just pull two dog breed names out of a hat and go with it*. Some of the time i can agree with their guess of the breeds but other times i think they are crazy lol.


pretty much


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## Ruralnurse

The best dog I had growing up was from a St. Bernard mother and the old fashioned silver with black saddle German Shepard sire. She had a thick coat like the St. but was white with black over lay making her look silver and had a black muzzle. 

She was very protective of us kids, loved all the livestock and was trustworthy. But did like to chase the cotton tails. Once she found a nest and brought a little baby home. She was so proud of herself to have finally caught one. She came in the house and dropped a little slobbery bunny on the kitchen floor. He was soaked but didn't have a scratch on him. 

I know those two breeds are not really considered LGDs but she was really good with all the stock and was very protective of anything that was on the farm. She lived to 14 years. 

Ruralnurse


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## lonelyfarmgirl

Picking out the pitbull took all of 2 seconds. I was able to ID all but 6 of the breeds without even trying. 3 were the ones with foreign names.

I thoroughly disappoint myself, because I recognize the pitbull, but can't place the name. It's been a long time.

There was a time I did a lot of rescue work, and it has been my experience that when you cross a pit with something, it tends to enhance the negative characteristics of the other breed. A pitbull/mastiff cross is an accident waiting to happen.


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## Pops2

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> There was a time I did a lot of rescue work, and it has been my experience that when you cross a pit with something, it tends to enhance the negative characteristics of the other breed. A pitbull/mastiff cross is an accident waiting to happen.


that's because you're trying to make house pets out of them. game pit bulldogs & even untested dogs bring a lot to the table for WORKING crosses. great weightpullers have been crossed into competitive sled dogs w/ great success. their blood is added to curs, hounds, sighthounds, birddogs & herders to make superior hog dogs. some folks even use the bullXhounds on bear. bull blood has been used to harden up sighthounds that hunt coyote (& in the UK pre ban this mix was considered the ONLY way to consistantly take redstag). bulldog & terrier crosses have proven their worth as hole dogs on badger, coyote & big *****. and i've been told by people in the know that as much as 3/4 of the belgian mals & dutch sheperds used in KNPV (and as K9s) in the netherlands have bull blood & did even when the breed was banned there. as for the accident waiting to happen, none of the dogs produced by joe lucero have ever mauled anyone (unless you count a few crooks). although the bull & mastiff mixes are the epitome of crap in crap out, i wouldn't call them crap across the board. now NONE of these mixes makes for a good house pet especially w/ the laziness & ignorance of the AVERAGE pet owner.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

Your preachin to the choir pops. That's why so many mixes end up at rescues or in the pound, because people try to make house pets out of them, with disastrous results. For the most part, only the purebreds are suitable for house pets, of course there are always exceptions to the rule, of course. 
The vast majority of people that have these dogs only want house pets, the next majority want to look tough or 'make a buck', and a very VERY small percentage make them to use them for their purpose.

WHich brings us back to the original question. For the most part, crossing a pitbull with something else is not a good choice.


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## citxmech

An implicit undercurrent in this thread is impact of nature v. nurture on any specific dogâs nature. Personally, I lean on the side that says nurture/socialization has a greater impact on behavior than breeding. By that, I mean that diligent socialization at an early age, coupled with confident leadership, will do more to ensure a dog that is pleasant in mixed company (outside dogs and people) than breed. Of course, you will have that particular dogâs drives, needs, and unique character to work with, but IMHO mistreatment and poor leadership results in the majority of temperament issues.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

For the most part you are right, but the problem is a lot of breeds are SO driven that if you don't correctly handle their output of instinct at a very young age, its all for naught, and most people, I stress MOST people, cannot, do not and will not. Ignorance is not bliss.


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## Pops2

citxmech said:


> An implicit undercurrent in this thread is impact of nature v. nurture on any specific dogâs nature. Personally, I lean on the side that says nurture/socialization has a greater impact on behavior than breeding. *By that, I mean that diligent socialization at an early age, coupled with confident leadership, will do more to ensure a dog that is pleasant in mixed company (outside dogs and people) than breed*. Of course, you will have that particular dogâs drives, needs, and unique character to work with, but IMHO mistreatment and poor leadership results in the majority of temperament issues.


bullcrap
the whole purpose of having different types of dogs (hounds, terriers, herders, bull/mastiff) is to have a dog that is not just physically built for the job but mentally preprogramed for it. you can't love a dog's basic instincts away. you can get pavlovian & use cruel & excessively painful aversion training. if a dog really is a fighter in their heart, sooner or later they're gonna fight. same if they're a hunter or a herder they're gonna do what they're hardwired to do. if you're good, you see it coming & prevent the situation, but the want to is still there.


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## GrannyCarol

I gotta say, I bred show dogs for 35+ years and had a lot of puppies during that time. I could pick the tense puppies out at birth and I knew the relaxed ones then too. I saw behavioral traits pass through generations (I had 7 generations of English Setters) where the grandson never saw the grandfather do something like drink water by sticking his whole muzzle in and sucking it, rather than lapping. I am convinced that temperament and many basic traits are highly heritable. 

You can build the personality of a dog, but you build on what is inherited. You can ruin a dog, but I have known dogs that were rock solid under very trying living conditions and dogs that were unstable no matter how carefully I raised them. 

I agree with pops2 - you have to consider what is bred into a dog. Their basic nature is bred into them. Socializing and training will only go so far, it won't change the core of the dog.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

And that is the end all and be all of the problem. MOST people think any dog makes a fine house pet if they are just loved and given minimal training. You have to consider the instinct of the dogs. That is the core of most problems, especially with mixes. Behavior IS heritable, hands down. People don't seem to consider that the mix of breeds will directly affect the behavior of the dog as it grows. Hence the primary reason why pitbulls and mastiffs are a horrible mix. Pitbulls are bred to fight, bite and not let go and love their people to a fault. Mastiffs are bred to protect and kill. So you mix them and you have a dog that loves its owner to a fault and will protect and kill and not let go, with prejudice. Both breeds have incredible drive at that. 
BAD BAD mix, unless the person understands this in advance and is prepared to focus the dog and handle the dog correctly. The majority of people don't. Result? Disaster.


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## citxmech

Pops2 said:


> bullcrap
> the whole purpose of having different types of dogs (hounds, terriers, herders, bull/mastiff) is to have a dog that is not just physically built for the job but mentally preprogramed for it. you can't love a dog's basic instincts away. you can get pavlovian & use cruel & excessively painful aversion training. if a dog really is a fighter in their heart, sooner or later they're gonna fight. same if they're a hunter or a herder they're gonna do what they're hardwired to do. if you're good, you see it coming & prevent the situation, but the want to is still there.


So are you arguing with the folks that think APBs should be banned because, as a breed, they are impossibly aggressive? 

If you read my post, I never said that it's all socialization - and I certainly don't advocate ignoring a breed's specific temperament - that is a critical issue central to the selection of a dog that you can live with and will thrive in its new environment. Of course behavior is heritable - it would be ridiculous to argue that any dog is a "blank-slate" at birth any more than that people are.

The first part of my point was that no _breed_ is so inherently foul-tempered or aggressive that they can't be positively socialized to behave appropriately in the public sphere, and the second was that most anti-social dogs are the result of poor handling. 

Sure, I'm sure you can cite to some specific examples of inherently unmanageable dogs - but these would be outliers - not the norm.


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## Pops2

citxmech said:


> So are you arguing with the folks that think APBs should be banned because, as a breed, they are impossibly aggressive?.


 i don't think they should be banned but i do agree that pit bulldogs, the breeds descended from them & their crosses are inherently dog aggressive. i also agree w/ that crowd's assertion that no amount of training & socialization will eradicate the inherent aggression. and i agree that with the vast majority of these dogs a fight w/another dog isn't a question of if but when. i also agree that the majority of people that own them shouldn't own a goldfish. i also agree that any mindset other than the assumption the dog will at some point light into another dog is grossly negligent. while i disagree that dog aggression equals human aggression, i do agree that dogs of this type should be put down at even the slightest hint of dominance, aggression or even reaction toward prepubescent children (and for me women as well).



citxmech said:


> If you read my post, I never said that it's all socialization - and I certainly don't advocate ignoring a breed's specific temperament - that is a critical issue central to the selection of a dog that you can live with and will thrive in its new environment. Of course behavior is heritable - it would be ridiculous to argue that any dog is a "blank-slate" at birth any more than that people are.


 no, you didn't say it was ALL about socialization. what you did say was that socialization & leadership outweigh breed traits, which is why i raised the BS flag. the overwhelming majority of beagles & jack russells rehomed or in shelters are there because their breed enhanced predatory traits expressed themselves toward some small animal like the family guinea pig or the irresponsible neighbor's free roaming cat.



citxmech said:


> The first part of my point was that no _breed_ is so inherently foul-tempered or aggressive that they can't be positively socialized to behave appropriately in the public sphere, and the second was that most anti-social dogs are the result of poor handling.
> 
> Sure, I'm sure you can cite to some specific examples of inherently unmanageable dogs - but these would be outliers - not the norm.


EVERY SINGLE MILITARY MAL & GSD i've met has bitten at least one handler & most have bitten multiple handlers. do you really expect me to believe that more than 3 dozen people from 3 different branches of the military ALL improperly handled their dogs.
now what constitutes appropriate public behavior is very subjective. even w/ an agreed upon baseline of not initiating an unprovoked attack on any person or other dog, i can name five BREEDS for whom the first visit to the dog park constitutes a 99.9% chance of disaster; sage kooche, bully kutta, gul terr, coldblood greyhound & american staghound. the first three are extremely dangerous & are just as likely to attack a person as another dog. the last two (being bred almost exclusively to kill coyotes) are almost garuanteed to snatch up and kill another dog up to the size of a queensland heeler.
when it comes to raising being more important than breeding in how a dog acts, i don't think you're wrong, i KNOW you're wrong.


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## Otter

I'm with Pops on this one.
I've been a paid trainer, a groomer, worked in boarding kennels, volunteered and been paid staff at shelters, I've seen good owners, bad owners, well-meaning but ignorant owners, people who try, people who don't - you name it.
Breed matters.
Breeding matters. It's not all that matters, but it matters a lot.
You could not GIVE me with a solid gold collar and a lifetime supply of food a rough collie, a cocker, a dalmation, a chow and the more of them I meet the more I'm leaning towards putting Great Pyrenees on that list.
On that list, I've met the fewest rough collies, so I'd cut them the most slack - but I've still met plenty and every last one of them needed a muzzle to be groomed.
Each of those breeds I feel is far too much trouble to even _try_ to fit in with my lifestyle (by which I mean I have a farm and kids and I don't want any of that bitten, also, I go out in public with my dogs, public means strangers may walk up and pet them) with too high a potential of failure for it to even be worth my time.
_The first part of my point was that no breed is so inherently foul-tempered or aggressive that they can't be positively socialized to behave appropriately in the public sphere_
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. You can find individual exceptions to anything. But some breeds, on the whole, were never meant for the public sphere and will not fit, and some breeds have developed over time in such a way that even if they once did, they don't now. If you own one of those breeds, you will fit your life around the dog, the dog can't fit it's nature around your life.
And training, socializing and handling won't fix that - only breeding can.

And sometimes cross-breds can be surprisingly predictable. You couldn't hand me a pure chow, but generally a chow mix is an awesome dog. I have known many, many spectacular half-chows. Mixing a chow with nearly anything brings out the loyalty and intelligence of the chow - which they have in spades - while mellowing out the if-you're-not-my-human-touch-me-and-die part, and bringing out the best of the other part of the cross as well. 
BUT, right where I live, there are a _bunch_ of chow/pyr crosses and if there is ever a cross that should NOT happen that is it right there. Far more independent, stubborn and head-strong then either of the stubborn, independent and head-strong parent breeds. High prey drive, little inclination to bond with humans, or even other dogs, either very dominant or very shy, both with aggression. Several have gone feral and in the 2 years I've lived here, I'd have to count to think how many were shot going after livestock - we had to shoot one ourselves, he was ripping chunks out of our goat, dashing around his owner who was screaming for someone to bring a gun and crying and beating at him with a stick, he just kept going around her and after the goat again - it took her, DH and a passerby to drive him off, he nearly went for his owner but the 2 men ran up in time. He was pretty typical. A woman down the street still has hers, she keeps him in the house and has to distract him with thrown food to get in and out of her house, her arms always have cuts on them. Different parents (so it's not just one, unstable pair) - same mix. Just a really bad mix, I don't know why people keep doing it.

As Pops said, a Malinois bred for work will bite the hand that feeds it. I've met (my uncle used to train them) GSDs of working lines, used by the police force that wouldn't, some would, but not all. My uncle used to curse the policy that the force only used dogs and not bitches, he said the bitches were more stable, even if it was that you knew they were going to bite when you did X, they'd do it every time (sex matters in some breeds too) 

I've got a beagle. I'm a pretty good trainer. I've taught him to not pay any attention to rabbits in cages or rabbits in the house. I've got a picture somewhere of him curled up snoozing with our house bunny.
But if that same bunny was on the ground, outside - it's HIS. Now, he's also a soft-mouthed dog and I've encouraged that, so after he chases it down and catches it, he'll either pin it for me or fetch it to me ... but he _is_ chasing it down and catching it. It's simply what and who he is.
I can work with it, I can channel it, but there is no way on earth I can make it go away.


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## pancho

I can't say for sure what all breeds will do but I can tell you about pit bulls.

My opinion is pit bulls should be banned within the city limits of any city. I just can't think of a reason anyone living in the city limits would need such a dog. Also no free roaming pit bulls. If a pit bull is not contained in such a way that it cannot escape it should be put down.

At one time the pit bull was a great dog. It isn't anymore. The people who have done so much to destroy the breed just happens to be the people who believe raising a dog a certain way will insure they act a certain way. This has proven to be very wrong in many cases. Sometimes it takes the death of a person or another animal to get the point across. If a dog has hundreds of years of selective breeding for a certain purpose behind it there is no way just raising it a different way will change what is bred into it.

A pit bull can be controlled but you will need to be there to control it 24 hours a day. If you turn your head for a minute that is long enough for the bred in characteristics to take over.

It isn't that a pit bull is a foul tempered dog. It has been bred for hundreds of years to be a fighter. For hundreds of years a pit bull that would not fight was destroyed. Even the careless breeding in the last 40 years has not helped change that. It has actually made the problem much worse. There are now a lot of cur pit bulls running around and people are breeding more. Quite often out of a litter of curs there will be a throwback and people will not know how to handle such a dog. Add this to the fact that most people do not even know what a pit bull looks like.

For the people who think raising a pit bull a certain way will make it a different dog they should remember. A pit bull can kill most any other breed of dogs in a matter of a few minutes. A large or giant breed may take 5-7 minutes. If you leave your pit bull unattended, free running, or uncontrolled for 5 minutes a day you are taking a chance.
No matter how the dog was raised, no matter how the dog was trained, and no matter how friendly the dog is. 5 minutes or less is all they need to kill another animal. A person takes a little longer. There are not many grown people who can stand up to an attack by a determined pit bull. No child can.

One thing just about all of the attacks by pit bulls have in common is an owner that doesn't know what to do and will say their dog would not hurt a thing and they raised it different.


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## Chuck

Keep it civil, please.


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## jersey girl

I hear that in a local town, the mix of a pit bull with a jack russell is becoming very popular. Say they are meaner than pure pits....hense the popularity. I don't understand some people


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## Wolf Flower

Otter said:


> Breeding matters. It's not all that matters, but it matters a lot.
> You could not GIVE me with a solid gold collar and a lifetime supply of food a rough collie, a cocker, a dalmation, a chow and the more of them I meet the more I'm leaning towards putting Great Pyrenees on that list.
> On that list, I've met the fewest rough collies, so I'd cut them the most slack - but I've still met plenty and every last one of them needed a muzzle to be groomed.


That's interesting--you must have a bad collie breeder in your area. I'm a groomer too, and I've never personally met a mean collie, or had to muzzle one to groom it. But I'm with you on Dalmations, Cockers, and Chows. I also have to add Miniature Poodles to the list because it seems there is a bad breeder in our area. Standards are fine, Toys are fine, but Miniatures (with a few notable exceptions) have been downright nasty and they bite HARD.

I haven't met a mean Pyr either, but they seem to be getting more popular, and you know what THAT means. 

The way a dog is raised and trained matters, but breeding matters more. Otherwise, we wouldn't have different breeds for different jobs. We wouldn't have terriers for going after small vermin, Border Collies for herding, or Greyhounds for racing. If anyone thinks breeding doesn't matter, put an English Bulldog next to a Greyound. Try racing them and see what happens.


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## citxmech

First, thanks everyone for all the thoughtful responses. Makes for a good, enlightening, debate. Secondly, it seems to me that most folks here, so far, agree that the relative importance of heritable traits v. behavioral influence on a given dogâs behavior is not completely on one side or the other of the spectrum, but that the debate centers on the relative weight that should be given to one v. the other. It also seems to be generally agreed upon that this relationship may not exist at any specific point for the whole of _canis familiaris_, but is actually breed dependent, involving the nature of the selection process that lead to that breed. Finally, it seems that most responders are fixing the relationship much further toward the ânatureâ side of the equation than the ânurtureâ side. I hope that this is an accurate summary.

In my earlier posts, I tried to be unambiguous regarding my opinion on the relative weight inherited behavioral traits have in a given dogâs behavior, but apparently I was a bit unclear. For the record, I absolutely do not believe that any amount of positive training can eradicate a dogâs inherent drives. More importantly, I donât think anyone should ever try to do this. This kind of thinking that leads to unhappy and stressed animals and poor dog/handler relationships. 

Otter noted that if you chose to own certain breeds, you must fit your life around the dog; the dog can't fit its nature around the ownerâs life. I would take this statement one further: Personally, I think that the choice to own a dog in the first place involves a significant amount of exactly this kind of commitment. When folks bring a dog home (whether from the local pound, or from a championship breeder) with the attitude that the dog will be some kind of accessory to them that will never involve any kind of compromise or adaptation of their existing lifestyle, they are creating exactly the right environment for behavioral issues. 

Yes, breed, and breeding, matter â a lot. In fact, I absolutely think this is the first thing that anybody bringing a dog home should consider to help ensure a harmonious relationship for all involved. The more a dogâs temperament does not match that of their new home, the more behavioral difficulties the handler is going to have with the dog.

This, of course, brings up the critical issue of how much of the bad behavior we see is the result of poor matching between dog and owner. As stated above, I do believe the selection process is critically important. I am certainly not saying anyone can âtrainâ a Border Collie, for instance, to be a content apartment-dwelling âcouch dog,â or a Sheba Inu or JRT to be reliable in a heel, off-leash, at the local, squirrel-populated, park. I also assume that every owner has an absolute duty to be on top of their dog in terms of any negative behaviors they might display (e.g. segregating a dog for a few minutes if it starts escalating around vigorous or growly play at the dog park). But, I donât think expecting this kind of handler oversight means that the dog is otherwise âunmanageable.â A âwell-trained dogâ does not imply that the owner can now go to sleep and let the dog have the run of the neighborhood off-leash. 

The discussion, of course, necessarily gets a bit muddy, here. Perhaps the sticking point is what constitutes âacceptable behaviorâ and how much responsibility we should assume the handler has to ensure âsocially acceptable behavior.â I admit this is a vague statement that, at a minimum, needs further qualification. 

While Iâm sure we could all come up with some ridiculous hypothetical cross almost guaranteed to be a gigantic PITA to handle and/or socialize (e.g. Akita/Pit/Wolf hybrid or whatever) at the same time, I have yet to hear of a breed that, as a rule, canât seem to complete a canine good citizenship program â which I feel would probably be as good a standard for dog to be considered âsocially acceptableâ in public as any.


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## Otter

Actually, Wolf Flower, I've worked in a couple of areas of the country, why each of those is on my list, rough collies vary a lot in temperament and many have been very nice dogs, UNTIL, you go to touch their feet. I've never met one that didn't freak when it's feet or legs were being handled. Also, working as a trainer, I find they have rules, as in "Oh, Shep is a _wonderful_ dog - don't touch his dish! <apologetic smile> He thinks you might take it, come into the living room, he's really a good dog except for that one thing."
It doesn't matter what, I've heard all kinds of things, but they're all good dogs "except for that one thing"... and the feet ... and the prey drive, etc.

Cockers are often good dogs until their health starts failing, which happens pretty fast (skin, allergies, ear infections, yeast infections, drooping eyelids, ad infinitum), then they turn into bitey monsters. Their owners I've noticed also have lots of rules the dog set.

Dalmatians are just unstable. They don't know what they're going to do until after they've done it. Without a dominant owner riding their spots every second, most will get away with everything they can, but even the soft ones are just unpredictable.And I've known several owners who swore this wasn't true, then they got sick, or broke a leg, then their Dalmatian is snapping at them or blocking doorways.

Chows are wonderful, marvelous, nearly perfect dogs - with their ONE person. Past that they vary from benign tolerance to _let me help you to the deepest pit of ____ I have children. My children have friends. I would like children, friends, parents of friends, etc to all be safe in my kitchen without having to put the dog up or spend 3 years enforcing daily that this is ok because I say so.

I have only met 1 Pyr that was aggressive to people. The rest have all been friendly, loving dogs. But, I have never, personally met one (and only even heard of a couple) who have never gone after their owners livestock and killed something, and often several somethings. I can forgive any half-grown pup a single adolescent chicken, but generally people who have Pyrenees _USED_ to have chickens or cats or a smaller housedog. I've known plenty that had to be fenced away from the livestock they were supposed to be guarding when baby season rolled around, or during weaning when the livestock was upset. They are also very difficult to fence (for some reason, people deny this - just because the dog is in the pasture when you are habitually out there, doesn't mean they're there the rest of the time, I've had to take pictures for people or spray hair paint on the dogs) and bark incessantly.
Soooo, a 120 pound dog that barks constantly, escapes fences and is hardwired to kill anything under 30 pounds - no thanks.
I understand a little Anotolian mixed in makes a far, far better dog, and I've met some good ones. But I can't understand why people aren't looking for a "softer" Anatolian - there's a couple in every litter - instead of hoping that the cross turns out well.

Citxmex - what do you feel is acceptable behavior?


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## Wolf Flower

Otter said:


> Actually, Wolf Flower, I've worked in a couple of areas of the country, why each of those is on my list, rough collies vary a lot in temperament and many have been very nice dogs, UNTIL, you go to touch their feet. I've never met one that didn't freak when it's feet or legs were being handled.


Actually, now that you mention it, I do notice that Collies are dicey about their feet. Never had one try to bite, but they do seem sensitive in that area. My hypothesis is that their feet are too small and delicate to support their bodies, so they feel insecure about them.

Cockers have gotten marginally better in the past ten years or so, I have to admit. About 15-20 years ago, they were consistently awful both in health and in temperament. Thankfully either the breeders are doing a better job, or owners are wising up and not buying from BYB's. I'd still never own one, but they've thankfully improved somewhat in health and temperament and I no longer dread it when a new client calls with a Cocker.

I don't touch Chows in my salon. Period. After working as a vet tech for several years, I saw enough of them in action that I swore I'd never touch another one if I didn't have to. Some of the Chow crosses are okay, so whatever genetic components make Chows the way they are must be highly recessive in nature.



> I have only met 1 Pyr that was aggressive to people. The rest have all been friendly, loving dogs. But, I have never, personally met one (and only even heard of a couple) who have never gone after their owners livestock and killed something, and often several somethings. I can forgive any half-grown pup a single adolescent chicken, but generally people who have Pyrenees _USED_ to have chickens or cats or a smaller housedog. I've known plenty that had to be fenced away from the livestock they were supposed to be guarding when baby season rolled around, or during weaning when the livestock was upset.


That's an owner issue. Many, if not most LGD breeds have a learning curve about livestock when they are puppies, and some owners don't realize this. They think they can just plop a 12 week old puppy out with the stock and it will magically know how to behave... not so. Most puppies, even LGDs, have play drive and prey drive and will chase things that act like prey. And of course, once they get into the habit of doing something it's extremely hard to break.


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## mekasmom

jersey girl said:


> I hear that in a local town, the mix of a pit bull with a jack russell is becoming very popular.


Jack Russells are very aggressive little dogs. They kill small animals. Can you imagine the strength of a Pit with the attitude of a snippy, fast, little terrier like that? Wow. I don't understand why any one would mix those. Same with boston mixes. They tend to be aggressive little dominant dogs too.


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## citxmech

Otter - Generally, for any dog Iâd put into the public sphere [other than a dog Iâm training, where I would expect to maintain heightened vigilance], I would expect, at a minimum, to be able to walk on a loose lead past people, other dogs, and kids without a significant event, barking episode, or significant struggle (I'd give them a bit of a pass if one of said parties instigates something on their own). They should be competent at basic obedience â sit, down, come, stay, leave it, etc. Again, I donât think that the handler should ever assume that they can go sleep, but they shouldnât have to be tense around ever shrubbery worrying about a dog-fight instigated by their own dog, or their dog snapping at someone. On the other hand, I really donât think itâs a huge problem if a dog requires a muzzle for a visit to the vet â no, they shouldnât go completely insane if someone just touches them, but I can forgive a little growliness at temperature time [nobody in front of the supermarket should be doing that to any dog anyway]. 

For an objective standard, I donât think that anyone could argue that being AKC Canine Good Citizen capable wouldnât constitute a âwell-behaved dog.â As I stated, I think pretty much every breed is capable of meeting this standard with some dedicated work on the handlerâs part. 

As far as individuals go, I guess the next step in the inquiry would be to see whether certain breeds seem to experience a higher washout rate â but youâd have to really keep a handle on your sample set [eg maintain an adequate sample size] to get data sufficient from which to draw a valid conclusion.


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## Otter

The really sad part with the cockers is, when I was a kid (lol, and I'm not terribly old) they were still awesome dogs. I loved the ones I had met and wanted one in the worst way. By the time I was old enough to have one, even one from a "good, show" breeder, by the time it was 3 it's feet would be soft and swollen from chronic yeast infections from the excessive feather or some other similar problem and the constant pain and irritation would have driven the dog half nuts. Such a shame.
That was one of the breeds I feel the show crowd more then the uninformed breeder ruined; caricatures of the breed got ribbons, so they bred them to be caricatures and brought a lot of health problems with it.



Wolf Flower said:


> That's an owner issue. Many, if not most LGD breeds have a learning curve about livestock when they are puppies, and some owners don't realize this. They think they can just plop a 12 week old puppy out with the stock and it will magically know how to behave... not so. Most puppies, even LGDs, have play drive and prey drive and will chase things that act like prey. And of course, once they get into the habit of doing something it's extremely hard to break.


Well, now, while everything you said there is true - the more I meet the more I just don't know. Any "Pyr" I liked turned out to be at least 1/4 Anatolian and even the mixes, the more they take after the Pyr side, the more trouble they are. While the incessant roaming and barking is honestly enough to nix them for me, it seems that Pyrs just keep on asking the question
_Can I kill the chicken?_
No.
_How about the half grown one?_
Still no
_What about the rooster when he crows, that's a threat and I can kill him, right?_
No
_How about the cat, he looks suspicious to me?
What about the barn cat when she's in heat and smells different?
I_ know _you said to not touch Fido, but he looked at me funny and I thought it was a challenge.
Those lambs were attacking the mother, not nursing.
But it came near my food.
But it was sick and acting funny._
And on, and on. I know people with more then one breed of LGD, and the Pyrs are out in the farthest possible pasture where ALL they will see is their flock (often of males) and intruders, the other breed is up by the house and with the youngstock. I know people who are very good with dogs who've lost one too many animals to their Pyr and finally put it down - why get an LGD, and then have to guard stock from your LGD?

It could be regional, the vast majority of the Pyrs I've known have been in 3 southeastern states, but the more of them I meet, the less and less I like them. 

Citxmex, individuals of any breed can pass a CGC test, that's for certain. And, I don't have a lot of computer time right now, but I know the AKC has records on the breeds, that info is on the form you need to fill out - I don't know if they make it public. And not only the mixes but some unregistered purebreds are marked "All American Dogs", but I doubt the unpapered purebreds are enough to skew the results (the AKC will register a fixed, unpapered purebred as it's breed for limited registration, but it is faster and cheaper to not bother and go with AAD)
If you can look up the numbers of each breed and compare them with the numbers registered, it wouldn't tell the whole story, but you'd have a starting percentage.

There's also the man-hours consideration. Yes, individuals of every breed can be found that will pass, but did you have to put in 20 hours of training or 200? Teaching a CGC prep class will teach you a lot. 
Some breeds, you'll notice that the majority of CGC dogs are titled dogs. The breeder is trying to set themselves apart, but it says more about the effort the human is willing to put in then it does about the temperament of the dogs. For example, I LOVE Malamutes, and there _are_ Malamutes with obedience titles. But if you want a Malamute puppy to raise to compete in Obedience with you, you are going to do a LOT more searching, look at a LOT more breeders and dogs and then spend a LOT more time at training then if you have your heart set on a Springer.

I really wish that you could put rating/warning labels on dogs like movies "Extra Attention Needed", "For Professional Use Only"


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## Wolf Flower

Otter said:


> The really sad part with the cockers is, when I was a kid (lol, and I'm not terribly old) they were still awesome dogs. I loved the ones I had met and wanted one in the worst way. By the time I was old enough to have one, even one from a "good, show" breeder, by the time it was 3 it's feet would be soft and swollen from chronic yeast infections from the excessive feather or some other similar problem and the constant pain and irritation would have driven the dog half nuts. Such a shame.
> That was one of the breeds I feel the show crowd more then the uninformed breeder ruined; caricatures of the breed got ribbons, so they bred them to be caricatures and brought a lot of health problems with it.


You may be right, it may be the fault of show breeders as much as BYBs. When I was a kid (and I'm not terribly old either) I loved Cockers and wanted one... back then they were still sweet dogs with a good reputation. Things started going south in the 80's, I believe. A Cocker bit me when I was about 12 years old, which ended my love affair with them.



> It could be regional, the vast majority of the Pyrs I've known have been in 3 southeastern states, but the more of them I meet, the less and less I like them.


It could indeed be regional; I haven't seen killer Pyrs in my area. But like I said, the more popular they become, the worse things will get.



> I really wish that you could put rating/warning labels on dogs like movies "Extra Attention Needed", "For Professional Use Only"


Me too! Also, "Regular Grooming Required", for those who think a Cocker or Labradoodle need only be groomed once or twice a year.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

Wolf Flower said:


> Me too! Also, "Regular Grooming Required", for those who think a Cocker or Labradoodle need only be groomed once or twice a year.


Or that poodles don't shed. Poppycock! My mom had two standard poodles. After they were both dead, they pulled out the refrigerator when it needed service work, and underneath looked like a cloud of poodle hair.

One thing that really irritates me on this account, is that people assume labradors are born good dogs for kids. SO not true. Labs are the most populous dog here, and almost all of them are aggressive or fear biters. I've only met one or two that weren't. Strangely, both chocolate. Every other lab I have ever come in contact with, and 100's would be accurate, I wouldn't trust if you paid me. However, I have seen a lot of lab crosses that were great dogs. Hmmm...

My personal opinion is that the only cross I have ever seen that deserved to happen are labradoodles.


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## pancho

Show breeders have ruined many more breeds than BYB.
Just take a look at the show dogs of today, any breed. Look at the show dogs 40 years ago. 
When a breed of dogs are specially bred only for size, color, or some fault that is popular at that time, the breed looses.
Look at the modern day english bulldog, collie, german shepherd, rottie, golden retriever, you name the breed. The standards for the breeds have changed through the years.
Things that were at one time faults are now what the show breeders breed for.


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## Wolf Flower

pancho said:


> Look at the modern day english bulldog, collie, german shepherd, rottie, golden retriever, you name the breed. The standards for the breeds have changed through the years.


It's not necessarily the standard that changes--it's people's interpretation of the standard, and the judges that put up dogs. Often extremes are rewarded, as has happened with the German Shepherd in America. Their hind legs are so overangulated that some of these dogs can barely walk... and don't get me started on how they've ruined temperament... but thankfully there are still breeders that care about health, temperament, correct moderate conformation, and working ability. Those dogs look nothing like the show dogs that win in America, or even Germany for that matter, but they are closer to what the GSD used to be and what it was intended to be.

The English Bulldog is a travesty. I hope that one day, breeders and judges will wake up and realize what they have done, and do something to correct it. A dog should be able to breathe, breed, and whelp naturally; it should not suffer from skin, ear, eye infections because of excessive wrinkles and loose skin. A dog should be able to walk, rather than lamely waddle.


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## citxmech

Otter said:


> _Can I kill the chicken?_
> No.
> _How about the half grown one?_
> Still no
> _What about the rooster when he crows, that's a threat and I can kill him, right?_
> No
> _How about the cat, he looks suspicious to me?
> What about the barn cat when she's in heat and smells different?
> I_ know _you said to not touch Fido, but he looked at me funny and I thought it was a challenge.
> Those lambs were attacking the mother, not nursing.
> But it came near my food.
> But it was sick and acting funny._
> 
> Citxmex, individuals of any breed can pass a CGC test, that's for certain. And, I don't have a lot of computer time right now, but I know the AKC has records on the breeds, that info is on the form you need to fill out - I don't know if they make it public. And not only the mixes but some unregistered purebreds are marked "All American Dogs", but I doubt the unpapered purebreds are enough to skew the results (the AKC will register a fixed, unpapered purebred as it's breed for limited registration, but it is faster and cheaper to not bother and go with AAD)
> If you can look up the numbers of each breed and compare them with the numbers registered, it wouldn't tell the whole story, but you'd have a starting percentage.
> 
> There's also the man-hours consideration. Yes, individuals of every breed can be found that will pass, but did you have to put in 20 hours of training or 200? Teaching a CGC prep class will teach you a lot.
> Some breeds, you'll notice that the majority of CGC dogs are titled dogs. The breeder is trying to set themselves apart, but it says more about the effort the human is willing to put in then it does about the temperament of the dogs. For example, I LOVE Malamutes, and there _are_ Malamutes with obedience titles. But if you want a Malamute puppy to raise to compete in Obedience with you, you are going to do a LOT more searching, look at a LOT more breeders and dogs and then spend a LOT more time at training then if you have your heart set on a Springer.
> 
> I really wish that you could put rating/warning labels on dogs like movies "Extra Attention Needed", "For Professional Use Only"


LMAO on the dialog with the Pyr! =] I think I've had some of those conversations with my dog too - especially regarding our chickens. 

I took my dog to the dog park the other day and a guy had a GSD there that was trained to a pretty high level. I'm not sure if he was distraction testing, or just trying to keep his dog from interacting with all the other mutts, but ----, he was firing off commands about 1 every three seconds: "sit, up, down, place, get it, bring it, leave it, roll-over, play dead. . ." and the dog was snapping to it, not missing a beat. I doubt my dog could ever get to that level (nor would I care to try, honestly) because she'd be too busy asking the similar questions: 
(throw ball) "Go get it." 
"If you don't want it, why should I?" 
"Down." "I'll get down this time - but if you don't have treats, and just ask me to get up again, I'm going ignore you next time." 
"Come"
"Seriously? It's way more fun over here, why don't you come here and I'll tell you all about it," etc.

Thanks for the info on the CGC stats. When I have a chance I'll look into it and report back if I find anything interesting or illuminating. 

btw, I totally agree about the larger investment in time with certain breeds to get them to a place where they are OK in public. And I certainly don't think every dog needs to be at that level either. For instance, I don't expect owners of working LGDs to raise all their dogs to be dog park capable. However, I've seen enough LGD breeds do fine in that environment that I don't think these breeds are incapable if socialization work is performed at an early age. 

I completely agree on warnings for folks re certain breeds too - I rescued a Chihuahua/Fox Terrier cross many years ago that I wish had an alert on it. She had way more attitude and drive than I was prepared for at the time - and was the inspiration for me to get a better handle on basic manners training with my future dogs. Many dogs are so easy I think some folks think all dogs are supposed to be that way. Then they look for a breed they like the looks of that has serious drive and they think it's the fault of the dog, rather than realizing that it was their responsibility understand the breed, and step up and provide an environment where the dog can thrive.


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## GoodNHappyFarm

Not much to add, but read about the poodle 'designer' crosses - I have an Australian Shepherd/Standard Poodle cross named Annie - she is so smart (fastest puppy I've ever potty trained, just 2 weeks), so fun, great family dog. They call them aussiedoodles or aussiepoos...she hardly sheds, just a little at times, but she is definitely a poodle in looks and actions. The only Aussie trait I see is her coloring and the "velcro dog title" which is an Australian Shepherd trait, never have to have a fenced yard (tho I do), just like my 5 yr old Australian Shepherd, neither of them leave the yard, they come when you call for them, and follow you just about everywhere  The other thing with Annie is her "nose" - she uses that nose constantly, if I knew anything extensive about training, I believe she would make a great tracking dog, she works back and forth nose to the ground till she finds the ball when I ask her "where's your ball", or if I ask where another dog is, off she goes to search. Plus, I think she'd make a great agility course dog, but I know nothing of that either LOL - I just wanted to share my crossbred experience, she's a joy, only 1.5yrs old, such a fun "good" dog, definitely great genetics!! Ofcourse, I could probably have gotten a pure bred standard poodle with the same results - but I never knew I would like a poodle, I love Australian Shepherds, thus the reason I took her...


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## gimpyrancher

pancho said:


> Show breeders have ruined many more breeds than BYB.
> Just take a look at the show dogs of today, any breed. Look at the show dogs 40 years ago.
> When a breed of dogs are specially bred only for size, color, or some fault that is popular at that time, the breed looses.
> Look at the modern day english bulldog, collie, german shepherd, rottie, golden retriever, you name the breed. The standards for the breeds have changed through the years.


You had me until you mention Rotts. I am 61 yo. My family has raised and shown dogs since before I was about 10. So I'd like to think I can provide a reasonable opinion. My family has raised and shown Rotts for the last 40+ years. Yes there are breeds that have been ruined by breeding. However, not all breeds are the same.

My sis is an AKC judge for decades. She presently has a champion rott that is titled in two countries. Not just the normal stuff. She's currently into herding her rotts. Herding things like Geese and ducks? Yup, a Rott herding fowl.

My opinion where the problem remains?

100% Owner/operator error. Having an inappropriate dog for one's needs. Breed first. Breeding first. But an ignorant owner/operator can ruin any dog. Owner training first. Three big factors.

You find far less dog problems in (for instance Germany) Europe. One reason? Taxes. You pay taxes to own a dog. The bigger the breed the bigger the tax. Since they cost, most of owners actually take their dogs out and about. They are trained. They behave in public. Even in restaurants and grocery stores. You don't pay taxes for something you keep in the back yard.

PS: You don't hear of dog mauling at Dog Shows. Most of the reports on dogs mauling people are backyard dogs that got out of their yards.

PPS: I wouldn't trade my Yellow Lab Service Dog. She was in service for 12.5 years.

PPS: I've even met a couple of excellent "Pitt bull" Service Dogs. Again, not the dog as much as the owner/operator. :indif:


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## pancho

gimpyrancher said:


> You had me until you mention Rotts. I am 61 yo. My family has raised and shown dogs since before I was about 10. So I'd like to think I can provide a reasonable opinion. My family has raised and shown Rotts for the last 40+ years. Yes there are breeds that have been ruined by breeding. However, not all breeds are the same.
> 
> My sis is an AKC judge for decades. She presently has a champion rott that is titled in two countries. Not just the normal stuff. She's currently into herding her rotts. Herding things like Geese and ducks? Yup, a Rott herding fowl.
> 
> My opinion where the problem remains?
> 
> 100% Owner/operator error. Having an inappropriate dog for one's needs. Breed first. Breeding first. But an ignorant owner/operator can ruin any dog. Owner training first. Three big factors.
> 
> You find far less dog problems in (for instance Germany) Europe. One reason? Taxes. You pay taxes to own a dog. The bigger the breed the bigger the tax. Since they cost, most of owners actually take their dogs out and about. They are trained. They behave in public. Even in restaurants and grocery stores. You don't pay taxes for something you keep in the back yard.
> 
> PS: You don't hear of dog mauling at Dog Shows. Most of the reports on dogs mauling people are backyard dogs that got out of their yards.
> 
> PPS: I wouldn't trade my Yellow Lab Service Dog. She was in service for 12.5 years.
> 
> PPS: I've even met a couple of excellent "Pitt bull" Service Dogs. Again, not the dog as much as the owner/operator. :indif:


I had a good friend who bought a rotti from Germany. He was already a Ch. there and soon became one here. He bred many females to the dog. Over 90% of the dogs had hip problems before they were 2 years old. He finally put the dog down.

I spend several years in Germany. I never saw a dog in a grocery store or restaurant. Very few people had a dog and those who did have them left them at home. Most houses in the cities did not have yards.

The pit bulls, notice there isn't two Ts in pit bull, that maul people usually belong to the people who think they are going to save the breed. For some reason they seem to think they can change hundreds of years of selective breeding.


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## bluemoonluck

I don't like any of the designer hybrid breeds. IME they are produced by taking a crappy representative of breed X and breeding it with a crappy representative of breed Y, then claiming that **TADAH** magically because they are from different breeds, the resulting offspring will be perfectly healthy . 

If you want a mutt, go to the pound and rescue one! Don't pay a BYB to churn out chiweenies or doxipoos or whatever the heck they're crossing these days.

ITA with gimpyrancher in that people will get a dog that is inappropriate for their needs, then complain when the dog doesn't do what they want it to / does things they don't want it to do.

For example, I breed terriers. Terriers are feisty dogs, bred for the instinct to hunt down and kill vermin. Because this is their purpose, they don't always play well with other dogs/cats/animals. If you want a dog that will readily accept every animal it comes across, get a Golden Retriever, not a terrier.

I had a woman who wanted to buy a pup from me once who bred and showed guinea pigs...and kept guinea pigs in cages all over her house. Lets do some math: dog bred to kill vermin + house full of small furry creatures = a disaster waiting to happen. I told the woman I could not in good conscience sell her a dog, because I was not confident that any amount of training could get the dog to overcome her natural instincts to kill the vermin :shrug:. Of course the woman was not pleased, she wanted one of my dogs because "I just love the way they look!" 

People need to really look at what they want in a dog. And I mean honestly look at what they want, what they are willing to do grooming wise, and what will best fit into their lifestyle. Then they either need to get a mutt from the local shelter or get a purebred from a reputable breeder.


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## TedH71

If you want a good cocker spaniel then go with the better breed called the English Cocker Spaniel: The official web site of the English Cocker Spaniel Club of America Inc. less grooming issues and much more birdy.

As for pit crosses....the one I see often is a pit/chihuahua cross and they're almost always friendly and look like a chihuahua on steroids!

My friend who lives in Germany says he can't get over seeing dogs sitting outside grocery stores UNLEASHED and calmly waiting for their owners to come out. He says he sees them in restaurants too.


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