# Hay Back East Too Low In Protein



## JustinRobinsREO (Jan 2, 2013)

Crazy question for those in the East or Southern states. When feeding your horses that you ride consistently, do you supplement with grains or other products to keep weight on them?

The reason for the odd question is my wife and I live in Utah and are planning to move to Tennessee shortly. My uncle who is a farmer from Idaho (grows 18% protein dairy quality alfalfa). He is older and very stuck in his ways and opinions, but swears that a horse in Tennessee could be in knee high grass with a grass belly and die of starvation.

His reasoning for this is that the hay grows too fast and doesn't have hardly any protein versus our hay around here grows much slower and is higher in protein. Obviously I am aware that grass and clover is grown over alfalfa back there for the most part.

We work our horses quite a bit and feed a 80/20 alfalfa grass mix. We do not supplement with grain because they all retain a great figure with just the hay.

I do know that grass is lighter in protein than alfalfa, but was just wondering if there is some truth to what my uncle says and are we going to have to supplement grains when we feed in Tennessee?


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

It doesn't matter where you live. A lot depends on the horse. I've seen horses that get fat on air no matter how hard they work, and others that are skinny as a rail that don't work, and get a ton of grain. 

Your best bet is to have the hay analyzed if you want to know how good it is.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Having that problem here myself.

In NW Oregon, we hayed our own place. Only needed 85- 65/75lb bales of hay to last us a year and the horse's were over weight.
And I was feeding 2 more riding horses, than I am feeding now.

Here in VA,,, I am feeding 4 times the amount as I did in Oregon and they are pretty thin, at least compared to what they were like in Oregon.
Been feeding an Orchard grass/Timothy mix for the most part.

Am having to feed one mare Triple Crown senior feed and the other's get Triple crown low starch for the extra protein and vitamins.

If you can feed alfalfa in the hay, that should add enough protein to their feed.
I have two horse's here that can't have the alfalfa, so I am kind'a stuck in that regard.
If they need more protein than that, yes, you will have to feed some kind of mix/pellets or fortified grain.

Another problem over here,, if you don't stock enough hay up during the summer, its nearly impossible to find good hay in the winter... ran into that the first winter I was here.
What I saw was moldy and or way too course for my horses.

It is crazy to me,,, I guess because Oregon and WA has volcanoes, the grass, is pretty well balanced and the horses did not need anything extra and this was local grass. 
Here in VA... is like fluff.. not much too it and you have to feed so much more, is silly and very spendy, compared to the NW.

And I have easy keepers, Icelandic's and a mini horse.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

It's not true in my case, I'm in NY and have two good sized mares (16 hands/1100 lbs; 16.2 1400 lbs) they are over weight on just pasture and they wear anti graze muzzles 24/7. Both are as healthy as the proverbial horse. However, they are both unemployed broodmares that think walking from one end of the 10+ acre pasture to the other is work. 

Grass hay (or mixed grass) isn't known for it's protein value if it's protein you need continue feeding a legume like the alfalfa you have been or birdsfoot trefoil. They are both available in the east but it's going to cost you. 

Supplementing grain to a horse in hard work isn't a bad thing it just means it's using up it's caloric intake and need more fuel.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Had no problem with the hay, when I lived in NH for 3 years. 
Think the NE hay is fine. 

Down here though... is a whole nother ball game.... sigh ~~


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I moved from MT to KY and I've found this to be very true. Even the pasture grasses in the summer are not as nutritious ... my broodmares were fine on pasture only in MT ... here in KY they have to be grained, even with lush pasture available in the summer or free choice hay in the winter, to maintain their weight if they are nursing a foal. Some don't maintain their weight on grass hay in the winter even after the foal is weaned, without grain.

I've only had one or two pony mares that were/are notoriously easy keepers that will get too fat on pasture grass in the summer and have to be on limited grazing. In MT even our ranch geldings, used lightly, would get too fat on unlimited pasture.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

I think it's going to depend on exactly where you are and what horses you have. Mine get fat on pasture, the younger ones anyway. The old timers, well it's harder on them no matter where you are.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

My opinion is that if you're feeding a legume (pasture, hay, or both) in the west you're going to have to feed the same in the east. Most eastern horse pastures are not seeded with alfalfa, clover or trefoil and the majority of the hay is mixed grass (timothy) although you can find some grass/legume and some entirely legume but it's going to be pricey. 

It's unrealistic to think you can go from feeding high protein pasture and/or hay in the west and think eastern mixed grass and/or grass hay is going to do the same thing. 

Like Bret4207 said it depends on the horse- I have to limit even mixed grass hay to the warmblood mare in the winter or she'd look like a horse shaped balloon but the TB mare needs some grain to keep her weight.


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## JustinRobinsREO (Jan 2, 2013)

All great information. What about feeding a grass/clover mix? Clover is a legume right?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Yup, clover is a legume and it's found in some eastern pastures (it's all through mine) and in some mixed grass hay.

Legumes (in general) take longer to dry for hay and the humidity in the east makes it even harder to get a good cutting in and properly dried for storage, so it costs more to produce.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Anyone have experience with perennial peanut in horse pasture? I swear by it for my dairy goats along with mulberry and blackberry. But when it comes to setting up a good balance of pasture for horses, is peanut good? Will they even eat it?
I am in central Florida and SW Georgia.


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## JustinRobinsREO (Jan 2, 2013)

I have read a lot about peanut hay. Can't find any in TN. From what I have read it's just becoming known as far as growing for livestock feed.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

I have clover in the pasture here. More than I want in all honesty. 

They still don't keep the weight on like they did in WA and OR.

Think it also depends on what your horse's are used too. See other breeds of horses bred and raised here, nice and fat on the grass they are on.

Then you have ones like mine... that have lived in the NW, their bodies are used to the nutrition they have there... move across the country, the grass, pasture or hay, is lacking what their bodies have grown to need. 
Hopefully in another year or so, they will accumulate.

Oh and the bugs,, the bugs are much, much worse here than in the NW. Feel sorry for them, use fly sheets, bug spray, swat... every other day. 
And here I thought bugs were bad in MA and NH... ha! Not even close.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

I know next to nothing about equine nutrition, so I'm not going to try to defend what I'm gong to say, just passing on what I heard. I attended a lecture by an Aussie woman whose name escapes me at the moment but is fairly well known for designing rotational grazing for equines on small acreage. She said protein is WAY over rated for horses. They need forage/grass/hay, lots of forage/grass/hay and to forget the grain unless there is a problem keeping weight on the horse that forage/grass/hay will not solve. 

She recommends lower protein pastures and that lots of people have fallen for the trap that if protein is good, more protein is better, but that it is not true for most horses, especially those that only get worked a couple of times a week. 

In Virginia, we stable our horses where there are excellent fields of mixed grasses and clover. Several of the horses have to be muzzled to keep the pounds off and they only get a taste treat of grain to keep it easy to manage them returning to the barn.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

I'm from the coastside in California originally and moved to the SE about 5 years ago now. OMG the battle with insects wages eternal here. If it's not roaches and spiders (arachnids I know but... well lets just say bugs and cover them all) it's fleas or an invasion of stinging caterpillars! The south is _alive_. Wonderful in most ways, it's green here all year 'round the growing season so long and everything is so beautiful and vibrant. But the flip side to that is the multitude of bugs!

I can't find Alfalfa here for less than 30$ a square bale but the peanut is much cheaper and at least for the dairy animals even better nutritionally than alfalfa. I have no experience with it for horses though. I prefer to balance my pastures and do as little supplementing as possible but there are definitely mineral deficiencies in the soil, I think, especially here in this sandy, sandy soil in central Florida.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/15306/high-octane-diets


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

If my hay doesn't have sufficient protein, I prefer to supplement with a protein block (pick a hard one so the horses don't bite it off in chunks) instead of adding grain to their diet.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Oh... I know what I am doing the rest of the day... *starts reading*


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Your uncle doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. 18% isn't that great of "Dairy Quality" Hay either. In fact most Dairy Nutritionist would consider that Fair quality hay for milking cows.

If you are concerned about the protein, there are various ways to supplement. Personally, I prefer the use of 1#/day of a 30% CP supplement with Vitamins and Trace Minerals coupled with either hay or some oats.

Jim


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

wr said:


> If my hay doesn't have sufficient protein, I prefer to supplement with a protein block (pick a hard one so the horses don't bite it off in chunks) instead of adding grain to their diet.


I've supplemented with the molasses 'lick tubs' at times, but naturally my hardest keeper, the elderly Oldenburg mare, will absolutely not touch it ... and the chubby ponies of course wear it!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

SFM, I tried those too because you can adjust the trace minerals and protein levels and while my horses wintered very well on relatively poor quality feed, they were an awful sticky mess by spring.


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## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

I'm here in TN. Until my mare became insulin resistant and I pulled them off pasture for her sake, they were on pasture year round with one flake of grass hay a night. They got two or three cups of food at night so they would come into the barn and give me a chance to check them before I went to bed at night. They also had a mineral block. They were plenty fat. Personally, I prefer just a good quality mixed grass hay. Unless your horse is in hard work I don't believe they need the protein of an equine athlete. Just my opinion. My horses lived to be 30 without a lot of medical issues except for my mare's IR issue.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

As already mentioned, protein in horse diet can be vastly over rated. The Equine Nutrition talks given by SCIENTISTS at the AG College, not Feed Company Representatives, had a huge difference in the numbers "required" by horses being bred, worked, worked VERY hard, or just pasture pets. One speaker went as far as to say adult horses in moderate work CAN'T USE more than 10% protein in their entire diet! Feeding more protein to that horse is wasted money. This is where the comment "peeing like a racehorse" comes from, they pee off the excess protein received in the rich Alfalfa hay they get fed. Race horses used to be thought to NEED that protein rich hay, since they work so hard. Not necessarily true with modern studies. Change the kind hay they eat, they don't pee NEARLY as much.

Dog food is sold the same way, high protein is BETTER for your dog, feeds him to be active and energetic. Also rather fattening, so a LOT of dogs are obese eating that kind of food. VERY hard on their liver in some breeds. Our State Police Department quit feeding the high protein dog food after they got dogs with problems, ending their careers at young ages. That gets expensive, with Police Dogs highly priced, and frequent replacement of them is unexpected.

Around our State, some horse folks feed Alfalfa mixed with other grasses as hay. But feeding straight, rich Alfalfa, especially to young horses, does cause problems. Horse is unbalanced in their heavy Protein diet, not getting enough Potassium and Phosphorus. Can lead to leg problems like Epiphisitus, tightening of the leg tendons so horse is going on tip-toe. If caught EARLY, you can just remove the Alfalfa, rich diet with grain, and give the young horse about the poorest quality, first cutting hay you can find. Sound awful, but horse needs to lose weight FAST, come down off those tight tendons before he reaches the Surgery Stage. That is when Vets go in, cut the tendons, have to let the horse heal from being so tight. Sounds easy, but is lots more complicated, with a lengthy healing time when things go WELL. Always the chance of things going bad, making healing even longer, scarring.

We don't get hay with much Alfalfa in it, have had problems feeding Alfalfa hay to our horses and bred mares. Just couldn't get anything else that year. Our horses DON'T NEED all those excessive calories, to keep their weight in hard work, competition. They shine on pasture, first and second cut grass hay, with very little grain fed, between 1/4 to a pound of oats and cracked corn daily. They are big horses, 16-17H, weigh between 1300 to 1500 pounds, not Draft bred at all. We use them fairly hard, so that is a fit, working weight, no fat. Right now, they are on total pasture for forage, out for nights 12 hours, brought in during the daylight hours because of insects chewing them up. With that half-day of grazing, they are not too fat, have great hair coats, plenty of energy for their work. They get no hay from around the end of May, thru mid-Sept, unless we attend a show. They would be horribly obese if left to graze 24 hours a day. We buy hay, don't make our own.

My thought is you may need to change what you feed, from your old location thinking. If you plan to pasture, you need to learn HOW to have good pasture. It is not as simple as some folks think! You need to do soil tests on the land, find what is missing from your soil to grow GOOD pasture plants. Doing the soil tests will tell you EXACTLY what needs to be added to the dirt, you are not just adding stuff willy-nilly. MAYBE the land doesn't NEED lime! Might need Potassium or Phosphorus, to get those plants going. Using the wrong soil additive, is again WASTED money, because the land will let it wash away, not use it. Planting proper pasture seed, that grows HERE IN THE EAST, will help get better grazing on the fertilized land. Seeds that work out West, probably won't grow here without that excessive light it gets in Western locations. I tried Buffalo Grass once, had the Ag College grass expert tell me I wasted my money, it was a high lumen grass, and with Michigan cloud cover, grass didn't get enough light (lumens) to survive. Mowing on a regular basis, makes for very strong plant roots, so it can grow the new leaves the horses will eat. Tall, long leaf grasses, dried seed heads LOOK nice, but horses won't eat it. They just keep going to those bald spots where new growth struggles to get taller, and eat those tender shoots down. We get enough rain, I can mow when grasses get abut 8-10 inches, keep the length cut down to about 5 inches. That 5 inches will protect the soil and roots from sun heat, sunburn, to keep on growing. Softens the rainfall, so the dirt doesn't get washed away in our summer storms. If it is drier where you are, you may not need to mow as much. We can fertilize in spring and fall, because we have reliable rain to get it into the soil, but early Sept is about as late as I would put fertilizer down and expect it do the land much good before Winter stops grass growth.

I am going to agree with Lazy J, about 18% tested Alfalfa not being that great of hay for dairy cattle. Around us, the GOOD Alfalfa looks good enough to eat with a bit of salad dressing! Rich green, all leaves. My friend got FIVE cuttings off her Alfalfa field last year in the DROUGHT! We were both amazed. That kind of Alfalfa hay tests a lot higher than 18%, to keep those high number of milk poundage, cows producing like that.

Feeding that kind of hay to your horses is ASKING for trouble, with such an unbalanced ratio of protein in their diet. It won't happen instantly, but problems will develop over time, if you keep feeding like that. Seen it happen numerous times, folks feeding Alfalfa to horses "because Alfalfa is the BEST hay!!" Alfalfa is a great hay, just not for horses.

You need to educate yourselves about what kinds of hays, feeds, pasture plants grow in your new locality, so they are locally available when you shop for horse food. Then work your numbers to get a balanced diet, with correct ratios of minerals in the hay, pasture, grain, for your horses and the work they do. What worked for feeding in your old location is not in effect in your new place. What knowledge you have from there, probably is not going to be helpful in these new places you live.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

The majority of my full size horses only get 6-7 hours of turnout in the pasture a day. I let them out during the day because they'll spend a fair amount of those 6-7 hours standing in the barn to escape heat/bugs. Handful of oats every evening so that they'll come into their barn/dry lot and I don't have to chase them all over the pasture to get them to come in. Free choice grass hay in winter.

Ages range from 5 -28, all quarter horses or paints. Only the youngest one and the oldest one get full turnout and the oldest one also gets equine sr. at his meals. As for the rest of them, even with that limited time on pasture it is a struggle to keep their weight down. Yes, I know more exercise would help but the older we get, the more time they get to spend being pasture ornaments. I'm pretty sure one of the mares is an air fern. Doesn't matter how much exercise she gets, she's always FAT.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

For me it is not so much the protein, but the vitamins, minerals and the lack of nutritional value in the hay and grass here, compared where my horse's lived in the NW.
The soil condition and value makes a big difference in how nutritious the hay is.

Someone I know, told me about a place that does good horse hay, or what I consider good horse hay. Mostly an Orchard grass.. some times with some timothy in it.
Nicely done hay, clean, no mold, not too course.
But I still have to feed 4 times the amount of hay, to keep them from being too thin.
(Yes, teeth are done, de wormed, very well cared for) 
Its just... the hay between NW WA - NW Oregon and Virginia is that different.

Many of us are quite knowledgeable in fodder or good horse hay.
In fact, I have done some research between hay and the high quality Iceland has, compared to the hay in the US.
And the issue a few of the imported Icelandic's have, because of the change. 

Also hayed my farm in Oregon. Knew the soil quality.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

I wasn't going to touch the protein area, but I agree that it's over rated for horses. Lot's of good quality forage of multiple varieties will do more for them in the long run than simply going by protein #. My pastures have everything from red clover to raspberries and the horses partake of all of it and they are fat. If they aren't fat this time of year I look for worms.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Protein in alfalfa varies greatly, from the high 20's to 9 or even below. It depends on how it was put up, what stage of flowering it is in, irrigated or not, condition of the soil, ect. While a knowledgeable farmer can make an educated guess, the only way to be sure what the protein level is is to test it.
Alfalfa has very deep roots,as deep as 15 feet. This makes it i high in calcium and other minerals. You can get the advantage of feeding alfalfa without the high protein if you buy 12-15% protein, well made alfalfa.


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## Ohiogal (Mar 15, 2007)

I'm in SW Ohio, and have found that the key to feeding successfully is mixed grass hay most of the year, with 100% alfalfa added as a flake supplement in the Winter when temperatures warrant. This is for two geldings where one is an air fern (he gets no alfie) and the other is a rail and frets off weight. I feed hay free choice in round bales as my pasture is short, but I overseed my pasture yearly with mixed 'pasture grass' seed and manage them by not letting them overgraze. For the one that tends to be skinny, come October when the colder weather arrives I add beet pulp to his morning ration as a liquid slurry..they both get 1 lb premium oats and the recommended amount of Essential K (vit/min supplment) daily. They are doing fine this way.
I've tested hay for years, have found protien levels vary dramatically from year to year - alfie here runs no more than 22% even though some of the varieties are supposed to test out to 38%. I feed based on the protien/phosphorus/calcium ratio and do not offer additional Vit E/Selenium unless I know there is a problem with the pastures.
Alfalfa = wet stalls and is hard on the kidneys. Also there is some evidence that it contributes to Entrolith formation in the large bowl, so I feed it sparingly.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

To keep weight on in the winter, you might consider using Oat bran as a hot mash. My mare used to love it and it has both fat and fiber in it, as well as some liquid.


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## Ohiogal (Mar 15, 2007)

From what I've read, oat bran is higher in phosphorus than beet pulp, phosphorus being one of those minerals you want to watch the percentages of in the daily diet. I feed the "non- sugared" beet pulp hydrated with simple hot water, and this works quite well for the horse, and is readily available as a carbohydrate. Its also one of the reasons I do not feed a bagged commercial sweet feed - the molasses is a contributing factor to IR in horses. I had a mare with Cushings and worked for years to balance her diet to meet the challenges of that disease. My horses only get clean pure grains and a ration balancer, nothing else and frankly, I'd not feed that except the food supply in this nation is frightfully short of vitamins and minerals now that the intensive agricultural farming has stripped the land of most - bagged feed is supplemented to offset that. BTW, I have a broodied that is on the same diet, she is doing fabulously, having been previously semi-starved.


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## luvmyjersey1 (Dec 14, 2009)

Irish Pixie, can you share what brand of grazing muzzle you like? Need to buy one for my Haflinger who gets fat on air. Thanks!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

luvmyjersey1 said:


> Irish Pixie, can you share what brand of grazing muzzle you like? Need to buy one for my Haflinger who gets fat on air. Thanks!


I use Best Friend grazing muzzles, they're made well and they work.  They have a good range of sizes too.


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