# Waffling on next move with sheep



## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

My first sheep have gone well so far. I have enough hay in to feed four sheep through a bad winter, and enough stockpiled forage to get the current lambs to butcher age.

Looking around on craig's list, most of what is available is shetlands, which does not make a great meat sheep. I'm not in a terrible hurry, if I wait a couple months, I may be able to get serviced ewes scheduled for spring lambing.

I should have more hay next year, so I should be able to keep some ewe lambs and add a ram. After that I need to make sure I can make a profit before expanding.


I ramble...

So I can look harder for a better meat breed, or buy economically priced mutts and try to upgrade with good rams over time.

I want to be impulsive and economical, but I'm thinking in the long run I'll be happier with a more careful investment.

I have one acre of pasture now, hoping to expand to five acres in spring. I have 10 acres in hay on half shares. The ten year plan is to turn hay fields to pasture and buy hay.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Buying more butcher lambs is a possibility, but not very profitable and i'm back in this position in summer.


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## 95bravo (Mar 22, 2010)

If you have the room you could grow plants that are a lot more calorie dense than hay. Mangle beets, sunchokes, sweet potatoes. That's my long term plan anyway. For now hay incredibly cheap, but it might not always be that way. If you machete down sunchokes right before they bloom they have higher sugar content in the stalks. The ground tubers will be stunted, but the plant will still come back in the spring. I don't recall the calories, but its high enough that it's being looked at as a biofuel plant.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I just learned about mangle beets. Turnips and potatoes are in my sights. The garden is sadly not as well cared for as the pasture right now. I'm still working full time.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I have offered fruit, but they show no interest in it.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

IF you can make good hay, keep it up you know what you have at all times. It is always good to upgrade to the better breeding stock, you will do better and it is long range. I would rather have 2 good ewes than 10 poor ones. Takes too long to improve from poor stock. Get and keep your own breeding stock, raise a total of what you can carry, economy is key. 3 ewes will give you 4-6 lambs....James


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm thinking four december bred ewes would be ideal. Hard to wait...


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Any opinions on cotswold?


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Dec bred or lambing? I liked early lambs, ready for grass and sold at Easter. Best prices. I guess too hard a winter where you are, for that....James


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Western NY in general has hard winters, and we live on a ridge that gets wicked winter wind. I wear two hats in winter, the wind goes right though one, and I'm comfortable in one at 14F on a still day. If I lamb in winter, the lambs won't be able to go out until they put on coats.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I understand, wet or cold is not so bad but both is miserable. It is usually dry here IF it is cold but we have a lot of cloudy rainy days....James


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

If rain was the worst we got, it would not be so bad. Last year my plow guy didn't show the morning we had two feet on the ground and company on the way... The sledding is pretty awesome though when the wind dies down for a bit.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

I tried the "build up the mutts" method. It's taken me 8 years and 3 rams I think to get decent animals. If I was to do it over and was starting real small like you, I'd buy registered or at least registrable stock, the best I could afford. Those papers mean a lot when it comes time to get some money to reinvest. Even if they don't have papers you're better off getting the type of frame you want, wool or hair you want and other factors you want. It takes a lot of time and trial for the average person to breed into what they want.

I hear ya on the weather. We won't put the ram in till around Thanksgiving anymore. Earlier than that is just asking for dead lambs.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Trying to do my research, but there are just too darn many breeds... I'm partial to the English Long wool breeds, as they tend towards decent carcass size while having some decent byproduct wool, but I hear Icelandic are especially tasty and hardy...

I may end up buying what is conveniently available rather than shopping for the perfect breed.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

dlskidmore said:


> Trying to do my research, but there are just too darn many breeds... I'm partial to the English Long wool breeds, as they tend towards decent carcass size while having some decent byproduct wool, but I hear Icelandic are especially tasty and hardy...
> 
> *I may end up buying what is conveniently available rather than shopping for the perfect breed.*


That's what usually happens. It's funny, but we got the sheep to train the Border Collies. Now we don't own any working BC's, but man do we have sheep!


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm trying to do out the math to see how much I can afford to sink into a rare breed. There are way too many variables... If I had infinite pasture and hay and sheep lived forever the numbers look great. (of course none of those things are true.)

I don't want to get in on a pyramid scheme, counting on selling breeding stock at the same price I paid. A lamb has to pay in meat and wool.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Could try Finn's, many ewes can have 4 to 6 lambs at a time. 
Spinners and craft folks like their fleece. 

When I was raising breeding stock Brecknock Hill Cheviots, I bought the ewes at mid range (around $400/500 each, wild and unhandled), and Sold the better ewe lambs they had for $1,000 a piece. 
One of the reason I could get that much, is each was halter trained by me, UTD on everything and had very good fleece for hand spinning and of course Registered.
I shipped lambs via a couple of the airlines, to buyers all over the US.

But this was back before the crash of 08. Not sure I could get that now.

If your ewes can throw doubles and triplets.. you can make money. 
If you specialize, in say, halter trained ewe lambs... you can ask and normally get more for them.
Market your sheep, show their fleece at fairs(if you go with a fleece breed), it is possible to make money. But it does take a lot of work.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

How many fleeces do you need to make the fair worthwhile? Some of those booths have a boggling amount of product in stock.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

One thing to keep in mind with the breeds that drop multiple lambs is that you are going to be spending a lot on time and money with bummer lambs. And bummers just don't grow out as well as lambs raised on the ewe. I don't care what the breed clubs say, any sheep trying to raise more than 2-3 lambs is going to have 1 or 2 or 3 runty lambs. Another thing to consider is with rare breeds you are going to be spending a lot more money and time looking for rams and getting them to your place. Unless you're into line breeding that is, and that has a whole set of downsides to it. 

Sometimes it's best to stick to something you know works in your area that has a marketable end product. IOW, getting a southern breed developed on heavy pasture and sticking them in a woodlot in the north might not work out so great. My wife likes the long haired breeds but they'd never make it on our farm and the fleeces wouldn't be worth shearing. They have to work out to the general lay of your place and it's pasture and climate and market. Getting something "rare" is absolutely no guarantee of future sales or success.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

To me, the point of rare is preserving genetic diversity. But I have a limited tolerance for how much of an opportunity cost I'm willing to bear personally for that value.

Line breeding in conservation breeding style can produce a reasonably diverse flock if your starting ewes are not all half sisters, half cousins to begin with. But buying starting ewes from different flocks is just as much a hassle as finding different rams for different years. 

I agree on the multiple births. I'd prioritize good mothering and easy lambing over triplets.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Know of a number of friends with Finn ewes, and they have no problems feeding 3 to 5 lambs, with no bummers.
So making sure of your genetics is always a good idea.

For the Brecknock Hill's I had, all but one twinned every year, were very hardy and very good mothers.
Sadly, the Babydoll ewe's, while I loved having them, a few of them couldn't count. 
They were also fragile at lambing time.
So I ended up selling them, and just went with the Brecknock Hills... and a couple of Brecknock Hill/Black Welsh mountains, I had bred.

I showed my fleece, ended up with first place the first time I entered. They sell right after that. So it cost me nothing but gas to get there and a discounted fair ticket.
I normally had 8 to 10 nice clean, skirted and tag free fleeces for sale, and after that first win, I had more buyers every year, than I had fleece for sale.
Back then, I charged $8.00lb for raw wool.

Nothing is ever for sure. But if you put the work into it, market and advertise every where you can, you have a better chance at making some money.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

I had a Katahdin that raised 5. It darn near killed her. The Finns I've seen locally produce bumper crops of bummers. Maybe there are other lines that do much better. I'll have to take your word for it. For myself and my Kats, I'll be very happy with 2 live lambs per ewe raised to market weight. We did 19 bummers this year and I've had all of that fun I can stand! I even bought cows to supply additional milk for the lambs. I don't even want to think about the economics of that, but one of them is a truly special cow, so there's that to consider too.

Get what you want, rare or common. Just don't expect miracles followed by million$$ and you'll do fine.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I think I've decided what to do. I'm going to wait for my current guys to reach butchering age (Nov-Dec) and then give the pasture three weeks rest before I start hunting for Cotswolds. There are several breeders in the region on the association website. If Cotswolds are not locally attainable, then I'll look at my options again.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I had contacted a couple people and gotten no response. I reserve the right to change my mind if they call me back.  I do have plenty of stalls to QT in, and a good supply of hay, just need an extra mineral block and water bucket for the new ladies.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

And of course, the moment I make a decision the lady calls me back. She has two coopsworth ewes. Neither has borne twins although one was a twin. She has some english long wool cross breeds as well that I might consider. I think they are 1/4 - 1/2 border leicester. I'll inquire more if I like what I see in them. She has one ram of this cross.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Getting my wires crossed. She has coopsworth, but we discussed her cotswold ewes.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

She's also willing to hold them to expose them to her ram in December if I put down a deposit.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

In case someone else finds this thread when researching cotswolds, I started a breeder map from the public listings at http://www.cotswoldsheep.us.com/where_to_get.htm and http://cotswoldbreedersassociation.org/membership/members-list/

Map: https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msi...ll=43.149094,-75.706787&spn=5.19374,11.436768

So far only NY, I may add PA and OH. If anyone else wants to enter data for it, let me know.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Added PA and OH, but there are a lot more NY breeders. If I want more diverse genetics I may have to go further afield.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Well, I put a deposit on two Cotswold ewes to be bred in November-December to a half Cotswold, half Border Leicester Ram. They have no papers, but seem healthy (body condition score around 3, good teeth, clear eyes and ears,) originally came from a reputable breeder close to me, and were a good deal. I'll hopefully have the weathers butchered before I pick these ladies up in early January and have a whole barn of space and a full hay budget.

I need a few more to round out this winter's herd. If I can schedule the others for January pickup as well, I should have hay budget to support three more this winter. I should probably QT the two sets separately? I have plenty of individual stalls, and two pastures to QT separately. Three weeks of QT? Is fence line contact ok, or do I need to keep them totally separate? (Possible if I fix the fence on the third pasture I had no need of this summer.)

The two I've put a deposit on are being sold because the owner is having health issues and is not happy with the level of care she can provide. They were not shorn last year, she recommended just tearing off the old wool at the break, and showed me how on the ram. It didn't look pleasant for the poor fellow. Do I tear it off, or is there some way to post-process the fiber to deal with that after shearing? (Or is it wiser to deal with it now for health reasons? Or should I leave it and accept that the fleece is devalued this year because of the break?) I'm afraid of stressing these poor girls right after the move.

I was tempted by some of her other offerings. She has a very motley crew there. The baby Shetlands were just adorable (but I wasn't there for cute) and the Blue Faced Leicester had a beautiful fleece (but I wasn't there for hand spinning) and the Finn was advertised as having had triplets last year (but I can't afford bottle feeding excess lambs this year), the ram was very sweet and had decent meat sheep conformation, (but I'd rather have a purebred ram even if some of my ewes are not. If my primary market is meat, papers are not so important, but consistency of product is, and I'm never going to get a reliable outcome using a hybrid ram. Any ewe lambs I keep next year will be 3/4 Cotswold, if I use a purebred ram on them their babes will be 7/8 Cotswold, which I think is pure enough for consistency of product purposes. The 3/4 boys will be topping the list to be selected for ram companions, fiber animals, or my own freezer.)

These girls have been on a hay and birdseed diet. (Shepherdess had happened upon three ton of free bird seed and has used it to replace grain ration.) I'd like to transition them to grass/hay/alfalfa only. (I use the alfalfa pellets as training treats for my current guys.) How should I go about that with the least stress to them? I think buying a bag of what she's using is an option. We should have plenty of fresh pasture when they are in milk in the spring. Our pasture is very wet in the spring, but it is lush. Both of these ladies only had single lambs last year, so they should not need as many calories as those raising twins.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

Transition them? Do they NEED a grain supplement? That's the first question. A lot of people grain their stock because they think the stock needs grain. I'd put them on the hay you are going to use, or introduce them to the pasture over the course of a few days, and watch their condition. I would expect them to lose a little condition from a move but wouldn't be graining them unless there's a reason for it. As far as the non-sheared stock, you can pull it off, allow them in an area where they can rub it off or have them sheared. If you want a quality fleece for next year you have to start now one way or the other.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

They should not need the grain, that is a major reason why I chose the breed. I'm just concerned about a sudden change affecting their digestion.


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## hastyreply (Nov 10, 2012)

Just because they had singles last year doesn't mean they will have singles this year. I think nutrition and maturity contribute as much as genetics.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I'll keep an finger on body condition and decide from there if the grass is not enough. With my health issues, I try to stay away from even indirect grain consumption, if they need more carbs I'd rather feed root vegetables.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

dlskidmore said:


> They should not need the grain, that is a major reason why I chose the breed. I'm just concerned about a sudden change affecting their digestion.


Then start them off on a low risk diet, hay, and move them onto pasture gradually if you're going to do that. I'd avoid any concentrated feed like grain for the first few days for sure. make sure they have access to clean salt and water. They will ofter have a harder time accepting different water than feed.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Can do. Was planning to keep them inside for a couple days to settle and get used to me anyway. Pasture won't be worth much in January, they will be eating mostly hay until mother nature phases in spring grass.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Am I being too ambitious looking for mature ewes of a rare breed? I've tried all the local breeders, working on the next city east now. No mature ewes, one breeder has ewe lambs. I just thought that experienced mothers might be easier to learn about lambing with, and bred ewes would let me put off getting a ram until next year.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Nothing wrong with looking for mature ewes. 

Make sure to ask, how their lambing has been. Live lambs, healthy...etc.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Is it appropriate to contact association members listed as juniors?


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## Sailor's Rest (Feb 12, 2013)

dlskidmore said:


> Trying to do my research, but there are just too darn many breeds... I'm partial to the English Long wool breeds, as they tend towards decent carcass size while having some decent byproduct wool, but I hear Icelandic are especially tasty and hardy...
> 
> I may end up buying what is conveniently available rather than shopping for the perfect breed.


we're particular to Katahdins. You don't get the wool by product but you also don't have the shearing chore and they are exceptionally cold hardy and parasite resistant. Really love ours. Great frame, excellent meat quality.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm sliding off the pure bred bandwagon. I've been offered a free cross bred ram.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

He is Cotswold/Border Leicester. Dreamy wool and temperamen, reportedly good with lambs...

I'm not sure if I'm the last to pick up, she has been dispersing her flock. We are scheduled to get two ewes this Saturday.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

This is such a big week coming up for us. Saturday my first breeding stock, then a week from Tuesday my first butcher day.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Starting to formulate a plan... Rocky can stay with his girls until we wean lambs this summer. Then I'll get cross breed wethers to add to the flock for next year's customers, and divide boys and girls. (Hope to have the new fencing up then, otherwise we will be buying hay until we do.) I need to look for a pure bred ram, and consider keeping a 3/4 Cotswold ram lamb if I can't find one. Use the most pure ram I can get in November, and use Rocky (a proven sire but only half Cotswold) as a clean up ram following the unproven but more pure ram. Following spring when I see when the girls lamb I can decide Rocky's future role. He may become a ram companion/wool sheep.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Janice, Katie, and Rocky are settling in. Roast, Curry, and Sausage are going to butcher on Tuesday.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Rocky is reported to be gentle, but he is reminding me that he is a ram. I tried to let him sniff my hand through the gate and he gave the gate a light bump. We had company over that wanted to see the sheep so I moved him off to a horse stall for a bit. Neither of us were happy about him being alone, but I think that is safest for all. Really thinking harder now about where I want to put handling facilities. I'd really like to be able to work with the other sheep without climbing in the pen with the ram.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Can I leave a nylon halter on him so he is easier to tie up when I need to be in there?


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

dlskidmore said:


> Can I leave a nylon halter on him so he is easier to tie up when I need to be in there?


I do that at times, so far, there hasn't been any issues.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I may be going overboard on the pure bred thing. Couldn't get all the bred ewes I wanted. I have a waiting list for cross bred lambs, and I may be able to get cross bred ewes cheaper than the lambs I got last year. If they have been exposed and some twin, then that would pay for their hay this winter.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Pure bred is important if you are selling pure bred sheep for some reason. I started with registered BWM. They are reported to never get foot rot and are excellent mothers. They are also small, but not tiny. I could not find a ram and so never had purebred offspring to sell. However, crossed with a Corriedale ram, they dropped lambs with beautiful fleece.

Since you are butchering, is purebred really important at this stage? 

When to breed is also an issue. I waited until Thanksgiving because, although the ewes and lambs were fine birthing in the snow, it was hard on me. However, if you have January lambs, they will be bigger when you butcher them in November or December.

IMO, go with the cross breds for now and add pure breds as they present themselves.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I've been sold on my chosen breed, but I've not really pushed that with my customers yet, they are happy getting cross bred. I can always butcher cross bred ewe lambs if I don't want to expand that side of the business.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I put a deposit down on three purebred ewe lambs today. They are too young to be bred this year, but they do meet my long term flock goals. One I really like, I'll save a ram out of her if he's anything like his mother. She was on the large side, square, and evenly broad. One seemed a bit skinny to me, but I picked her out of the crowd three times, so I'm hoping there is something my instincts are telling me that my brain is not. She had less flesh around her transverse process, but a decent covering between the spine and transverse process. One had a very broad middle, good condition, but a narrow hind end. I'm thinking I need to cross her with different genetics for better meat lambs. 

I had planned to pick out four, but with my hay budget being borderline, and the possibility of a crossbred exposed ewe helping me fill orders next year, I didn't see anything I liked enough to put money down on. I'll go back next month to pick them up. I want the pen they are going into to get a 3 week rest between flocks from different sources. (That and the hay budget is less sketchy with one more month off the calendar.)

What I found very interesting, is that in a pen of mixed ACRA, CBA and unregistrable sheep, I happened to pick out all ACRA sheep. I didn't even think to ask until after I picked them out. I'd already expressed a preference for ACRA, but was going to let genetics override that preference. I don't know how much that is a reflection of this particular breeder's lines, and now much it is a reflection of the registry, but it has renewed my motivation to seek an ACRA ram lamb.

When I discussed the condition of my other Cotswolds' wool, she agreed that I should just do a mercy shearing in March and toss the wool.

I'm going to see if I can overpay for hay and get it delivered to my mow when I'm not home. I can't take time off work to go to the hay auction, next Saturday is booked with lamb customers so I can't even stack hay delivered to my door.

If I can get a full hay mow, I'm going to pick up a few more crossbred exposed ewes. They're not part of my long term breeding program, but I can cut my net expenses on cross bred lambs until i get the Coltswold breeding operation up to full capacity.

I'm going to have to create some folds of sheep panels if I don't get the additional four acres entirely fenced this spring. I can't support all these ewes plus next year's butcher lambs on the existing fenced pasture. I have three areas (maybe 6 acres together?) that are not hayable, so I really want to start grazing them as soon as I can. The rear most field is a bit inaccessible, so I may not do anything with it until I get an ATV or something, but the majority of it is close to the house. The rear field would make an ideal place to put the ram and friends out of season, well out of sight of the girls. In winter when that area becomes inaccessible, the rams will be in with the ewes closer by.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Sounds like you are building up a very nice flock.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

bergere said:


> Sounds like you are building up a very nice flock.


Thanks! I hope so. I still have to figure out what to do about a ram. The ram I have is cross bred and I'd rather go pure. Down side of going for a rare breed and trying to keep it pure is it can be very hard to find what you want. I had really wanted some of my foundation ewes to come from different flocks, but it just didn't work out. At least the flock they are from is fairly large so they are not too closely related.

The ewe lambs were so dainty, and their wool so nice. Looking forward to getting the older girls shorn and seeing what they look like underneath. I'm probably just going to have to call this year's wool off the older girls a waste, there is two years of growth there, break in the fiber, some felting, some burrs... Their breeder called it a mercy shearing, the intermediate owner thought the wool could be saved, but she also thought I should spend hours in the barn picking out those burrs by hand. Have to wait until March, we have several weeks left of potentially frigid temps. They are hopefully due in April, so I want it done before then, and shots too at that time while I can find the skin.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

It was so hard to pick those ewes. I kept finding really nice fiber and then reminding myself that was not my primary breeding goal.


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

what is ARCA and CRA? 
I have a Wensleydale Cotswold, and she has a lovely fleece. Can you post a pic of your sheep? Last year, had a Cotswold ram, and the only thing we noticed here, was slower growth on the lambs. (I think that is normal for Cotswold)
Have you looked on Etsy to see what the Cotswold fiber goes for there? Did you get dark or white sheep? 
would love to see a pic....


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Here are the older girls and cross bred ram with neglected wool. I don't have pictures of the young girls yet.

The American Cotswold Record Association and the Cotswold Breeders's Association are the two American Cotswold registries.

http://www.cotswoldsheep.us.com
http://cotswoldbreedersassociation.org

ACRA is older, and does not allow registration of colored stock, although it very occasionally pops up. If you have colored Cotswolds in America, they are probably of CBA breeding or unregistered lines.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Wensleydale registry in America is still an open herd book, you can cross in Cotswold and get registerable Wenslydales. Ewes have to be 50% pure, rams 75%. If yours is not registered, it may be under the limit and more Cotswold than Wenslydale.


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

is there a link to your older girls? 

Thanks for that info! Our ram was silver grey, and registered, so I am guessing it was CBA.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I think my other attachment failed...


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

beautiful! Those locks are very nice! An art yarn spinner's dream. The Wensleydale x was registered, though I did not get the papers. Maybe after lambing.....


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm looking forward to picking up the new girls. Being from a large flock they have not been handled a lot, but I think they will gentle nicely in a few months.

I only have a single fence between the two pastures, am I going to have trouble with a ram from a seasonal breed in February? Ram is mild, was held by saggy electronet in the past, will be with two girls he has already bred.


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

that is good he is mild- we had a Jacob ram blow right through the field fencing when he wanted on the other side- he was a wild man. 
But remember, never, never trust a ram. Our sweet Cotswold ram the "gentle giant" sent my husband over a 4 ft fence when his back was turned during breeding season. No signs coming, sweet as could be, no pawing, chasing, etc, he just sent him flying.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

If you put some electronet on the girls side, he will be reluctant to go over two fences. This has worked for me.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Just got hit with an unexpected bill. Might wait on the bred ewes plan until we see what Uncle Sam wants from us this year. Still need to get more hay, not confident about the storage of the round bales and how much of that will be usable.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

There is no such thing as leftover hay. I have a garden that can always use more mulch.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Financially the exposed cross bred ewes make sense, but going from three sheep to six already, do I really want to make that twelve with half of them pregnant? Am I better off dealing with fewer newborns this year?


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

That pasture can fill up pretty quickly, especially with twins.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Yeah, I'd feel better about more stock if the new fence was up. Going from one acre to five would mean enough pasture to only need hay in winter. I have to do a temporary pen already to support six if I don't get that fence up.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Ok, I need to be patient and save for that fence. There will be wethers somewhere in spring, and if I shop around I can spend less than last year.


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## farmmaid (Jan 13, 2003)

Our history with sheep....Have had goats for 40+ years, added Katahdin sheep 4 years ago and a Dorper ram. We kept some ewe lambs and bred back one time dad to daughters.....very happy! We were reclaiming 6 acres of the best land, river bottom! So... last year we sold 8 ewes and all the lambs but two in our freezer. Took the money and bought high-tensile woven wire....ouch...$219 for a 330' roll. Local farmer provided hefty locust fence post at $3.00 each with telephone poles for corner posts ( damaged posts and free). Answered ad on Craigs list and found @ 20 miles away, 10 stock gates, look new, for $300 (Very nice people getting out of alpaces). Friend has a OLD tractor with a big loader and we pounded those posts in the ground. 

My point........NEVER are we going to have loose animals or animals getting into the pastures...but the whole process, saving the money, breeding etc. took us 4 years. We have six ewes expecting this spring, including 2 East Friesians (bred to Friesian) wool and milking (cheese). We will start building the flock again, now have 6 more seeded acres that we just brush hogged this year to let the root system get started.

We are proud that the animals paid for this and now will provide for our dream future needs. I designed the rotating pastures with gates for smooth transition from one pasture to another and gravity fed water to each pasture. 

We had to wait, BUT we are now able to be VERY efficient with our time and resourses....be patient. We are also in NY, down by Binghamton...come visit.


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## farmmaid (Jan 13, 2003)

Forgot: This year's goals with the sheep. Pay 2014 taxes, buy a new Dorper ram, buy a new Nubian buck, keep the nice ewe lambs to build the flock again. Next year: taxes, keep some ewe lambs and $ in our pocket....it had been a journey!


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

We are both selling to the greater Rochester market, what prices do you get, and do you have any special marketing angles? I think I under charged this year. I started in the per pound ball park of what I pay for grass fed beef, and had to round up to cover some expenses. Will help when I'm not buying the lambs.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

We are looking at ways to raise capital. Have a neglected asset. I think I want that fence before any more ewes. 

Looking at panels for a temporary moving solution. Well be useful long term for ram management, dog training, handling facilities, etc if we don't need them after the full fence is up. 

We are also toying with the idea of not trying to match our waiting list next year. Just call it a building year. But I'd like to keep the customers I have already won.

On the other hand if I'm under charging and need to jack prices next year, I might be looking for different customers anyway.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Butcher called. Hanging weights are a little disappointing, but I sold by the head so I still can cover my per head expenses. No customer would pay all my startup costs, that is all on me.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

dlskidmore said:


> Butcher called. Hanging weights are a little disappointing, but I sold by the head so I still can cover my per head expenses. No customer would pay all my startup costs, that is all on me.


If you are going to sell market animals to the public you really need a scale so you know what you are selling, even if it is on a per head basis.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I looked into it, I'm an awful small producer to afford that cost right now. Over time I hope to build a handling area with a scale, but not this year. When I get this property up to full carrying capacity handling facilities will be a must.

Neither of the farmers I've bought from have livestock scales. One goes by the butcher's hanging weight. The other does poultry by dressed weight. That uncertainty of not knowing your bill when you commit to buy, which seems to be common practice here, is why I sold by the head. It is good for me because I know my costs are covered, and it is good fir the client because they know they can cover the cost. When I start breeding my own lambs, records should help me predict hanging weight ranges better.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

The problem with selling by the head is the expectation on the part of the purchaser. Most of us have an expectation of how much meat they receive. If you sell them an animal that is smaller than they expect, you just angered and possibly lost a customer. You still need to know how much the animal weighs.

A disgruntled customer could easily give you a bad reputation with comments like this: "you can trust xxxxx! He screws you by selling you by the head, then gives you an underweight animal that isn't ready for market."

I understand the cost of a scale, but if your marketing plan is to sell direct to consumer then you need to have one or at least sell animals that appear to have a normal market weight.

Jim


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Two of three customers when they got their hanging weights expressed relief that their lambs were not too big. We are doing all right so far. We are target marketing to customers that look for quality over value. So far it is working. My major concern at this point is that they be pleased with the flavor and type of fat in the cuts. My breed selection was based on those factors and my land conditions.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

dlskidmore said:


> We are looking at ways to raise capital. Have a neglected asset. I think I want that fence before any more ewes.


Between the tax refund and the hopeful sale (auction) of the neglected asset tomorrow, we are in good shape to put in fence and do one major house repair. Yay!


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Our first registered Cotswolds. Just need a matching ram and my foundation flock will be complete. These ladies will not be ready to breed until next year, so it may be that said ram has not been born yet.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Cute sheep! Bet they will have some wonderful fleece for handspinning!


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Their fleece is a bit coarse, but the curls are prized for doll making. I am interested in felting boots and rugs, this wool is perfect for that.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I made some possibly unwise purchases yesterday. Sweet Pea is a registered (CBA) Cotswold, but when I got her home next to the others I realized she is rather on the small side. Beside her is Hopo, a registered finn they were willing to let go for meat, but I'll keep him a bit as a ram companion. (So now I have two rams I don't want to use, but at least the first has company now.)


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Ordered my butcher lambs for the year. Still deciding if our 3/4 Cotswold ewe lambs are staying or going to butcher.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

So the 3/4 Cotswold ewes... how is their fleece quality? If they are nice, could always advertise them for hand spinner flocks.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

True, I should consider the third way of selling them on the hoof. I can probably get more for them though as grass finished meat, and keep their lamb fleece.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Dam and sire both were overgrown when I got them, I skirted about 2/3 of sire's wool for heavy felting, and I'm not sure all of what I kept is usable. It is softer than pure cotswold and long in the usable spots. Dam's wool impressively long, granted it was two years of growth, but no break in the unfelted locks, 8-13" long. Partially felted locks broke near the tips.


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