# I really need some puppy advice



## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

My husband and I had two Pyrs that guard our property from foxes and coyotes, and they've been invaluable. We have chickens, and we lost most of our flock over the span of a couple of summers to fox predation. The coyotes haven't ever gotten through the perimeter field fencing, but now I never even hear them, so I assume they've moved on.

The bad news is that our male Pyr died suddenly from "unknown causes" about a month ago. A month ago today, in fact. The vet said without an autopsy, she could only guess, but an autopsy wouldn't bring him back, so we decided not to spend the $300 (!!!!) for that. In the meantime, we started looking for another dog because our female was pining something horrible. She spent all her time hiding in one of our lilac hedges and completely stopped working, as far as I could tell. She was the brains of the pair, and I didn't want to risk losing her as well.

So we found some puppies in Wyoming, about 7 months old, raised by their parents with goats, sheep, chickens, and rabbits. I thought I'd struck gold. The guy had lost his farm and was dispersing all his stock, including the puppies (he kept the parents, I think). So I talked to him on the phone, explained our situation, and asked him if he would select a submissive male, given that our female is fairly dominant. She wore the pants in the family when our other male was still around. It was too far for us to go in one day (and I have cows to milk), so a girlfriend of mine who lives in Wyoming went down and picked up this pup (we named him Jasper) and brought him as far as Gillette, where we met her and brought him home.

For the first week, everything was OK, but I couldn't touch him. I had no idea how human-shy he was, but once I got him out of the car, he took off and hid. Well, no big deal, the property is fenced tight for dogs (but not foxes) and I knew he wouldn't go anywhere. Over the last three weeks, I've worked on befriending him by giving both the dogs pieces of cooked liver as treats. I finally got to where he would take pieces from my hand, and two nights ago, I finally was able to get hold of his collar so we could change it. He's growing fast, and the old collar was way too tight. He screamed and thrashed but never growled or tried to bite, and we got a new, looser collar on him, but now of course, he won't come within arm's length of me. Back to square one.

The problem is he's playing with the chickens now. He killed the first one, but she was the smallest, and I think she actually died of fright because she didn't have a mark on her. He's rolled a few more, and pulled feathers out of some, but didn't hurt them too badly. Whenever I see him even LOOKING at a chicken now, I say "EH!" very loud and sharp, and he stops. Thank goodness he listens. I can't watch him all the time, however, and we finally ordered a field training collar that will zap him if I press a button. It hasn't got here yet, but I'll play hell getting it on him when it does, after the last collar incident, and the zap collar will have to fit tight enough to work, so I'll have to be able to let it out every week or so. That will be a problem if I can't get ahold of him, so I'm hesitant to even try to put it on when we get it. I would LIKE to use it, though, because I think it will only take once or twice getting zapped "by a chicken" for him to decide it's not fun to play with them.

We don't have the sort of set up where we have pens and such that I could confine him to. The only place he could be confined securely is in the garage, and I doubt I could get him in there anyway. And I wouldn't want to put him in there because it's a metal building and it's like 100 degrees in there during the day.

I've thought of tying him out on a chain for a while, but again, if I can't get hold of him, how can I put him on a chain? And then what good would he be?

Our female, who I THOUGHT might actually help train him (she trained the other one, but he was 2 years old already) is not doing anything when he rolls a chicken except looking guilty when I come out and find the evidence, or catch Jasper in the act. But I guess she's not his mother, so why should she correct him? And I don't know, maybe even his MOTHER wouldn't. I just don't have any experience with LGD puppies. We started out with adults and never had any problems. Now I have a teenager and I'm lost.

Is this something that I just have to learn to live with? Lately I haven't been all that worried, because he's gone to just chasing, and not actually pulling feathers or any other mauling, but just this afternoon I found one of my 3 remaining guinea hens standing funny all by herself, and when I went to look, saw she had all the feathers pulled out of her back, and she was very wobbly and couldn't run but just a few steps before lying down again. She even let me pick her up (that is SO unlike a guinea!) and carry her, unprotesting, back to the coop. It's raining today, so she's a sodden mess, poor thing. I don't know if she has internal injuries, but she seemed OK on the outside other than missing a lot of feathers. Her wobbling and having trouble running has me worried, but if Jasper had just done it, maybe she was still in shock and will recover.

I figured even before we decided to get Jasper that I might lose a few chickens, but I'd like to NOT lose any if there's anything else I can do. Right now I just have to go out every so often and check on things, and if I see him chasing one, stop him. All he's learning from this is it's BAD to get CAUGHT.

We have a very tiny coop, by the way, and no chicken run (our steer dismantled it, bless his heart) so I can't keep the chickens locked inside that tiny little shed all day, especially in this heat. They have to be able to go outside and free range.

Am I just out of luck until he gets older? If anyone has any advice or ideas that don't cost much money (we went into debt getting the collar), I'd love to hear it.

Thanks for listening... OMG, I just realized how long this is - I'm so sorry!

~Lannie


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## jordan (Nov 29, 2006)

This pup really needs to be confined Lannie so you can work on gaining his trust. Is there no way you can put together some sort of temporary pen out of cattle panels or such? Your life will be so much easier if you get this pup to the point where you can handle him. I'm afraid that without confining him, you will be fighting an uphill battle. 
Confining him will also give you the opportunity to correct his behavior with the birds. He may or may not outgrow it given time, but you can lose alot of birds in the meantime if he is allowed free rein.
Good luck!
Lois


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

you really can't expect a 7 month old puppy to be safe and reliable with stock if there is no mentor dog to teach him the ropes. He must be confined until he learns proper behavior and matures. I have two Anatolian pups. their pen is in the sheep paddock and is made out of cattle stock panels. Chickens can freely come and go through the panels, but the pups can't. I am dealing with an additional problem of the sheep being terrified of he pups so keeping the pups close to the sheep at night will help. My paddock is in full sun so I bought some nursery shade cloth and fixed it over one end of the pen so the pups will have some good deep shade. You really need to work with that pup on-leash and get him over some of his fear of you. It will be hard to train a dog that is terrified of you. Personally I would not want a LGD that is that freaked out by me. How will you handle him with he weighs 150 pounds?


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Place him in a pen next to the chickens, allow him out of the pen time only when you are there to correct him. In no time you should have a wonderful guard dog. But you must put in the work first. Spend time with him with the chickens. Use a loud ecckkkkk!!! that grabs mines attention and stops them in their tracks.

My LGD's live in the ewes paddock and the ewes have learned to ignore their playfulness and have learned if they dont run, the boys wont chase. But just yesterday I place my LGD's 8 months old in with the Rams. Rams have seen them through the fence and know they live there. I walked ziggy and Boomer into their paddock and the rams wanted to run, but I stayed right there and gave introductions then me and the dogs walked the fence line to allow them to check it out. The rams were curious and came closer (now remember my rams are scared of dogs due to a recent coyote attack) so they are a little nervous and weary. The dogs started running and I stood next to the rams and they wanted to run. But with me there I assume the rams felt safe and stood there ground while the boys came up and sniffed and licked them. One wether try to make a mad dash and ziggy thought it was play time which scared them...so with a loud eccckkk!!!! Ziggy halted and stopped the play and the rams settled down and allowed them near them.


My point is work, you must spend the time to work with them and you will be glad you did.


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## ONG2 (Sep 22, 2010)

Lannie,

Please keep us updated on resolving this issue. I am learning LGD puppyhood with you.

ONG


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

I've gotten the pen advice before, but we don't have anything to make a pen out of. We don't have any cattle panels, so I guess we'd have to go buy some. I have no clue how much those are, but whatever, they're in Rapid City and we're 110 miles away. So gas has to be factored in. We're just so strapped right now, because of the vet bill from the Pyr that died (which was considerable), then the cost of going to get the new pup, then the electronic collar, and we have to buy our first load of hay this next month. But enough of my whining, I'll figure something out in that respect.

I have been spending a lot of time with him, to the detriment of my other responsibilities. I spend hours outside sitting in a central location, just keeping an eye on things. When I do see Jasper beginning some unwanted chicken chasing, I do use the "EH!" and that does stop him. But I can't be out there every minute, obviously.

Our female, Kiara, SHOULD have been his mentor. That was MY plan, but apparently it wasn't her plan. She's an excellent dog, and I can't imagine one better, but she stands by and lets him rough up the chickens. Maybe it's because she _knows_ he's only playing, and doesn't have "evil intent," I don't know.

A lot of it is also temperature related. When it's hot, both dogs go up to the perimeter fence line and spend the day in the shade of the trees there. It's usually only early morning and evening when he starts with the chasing, if at all. I mean, we go days and days where he's a perfect angel, and then wham, out of the blue, he just can't restrain his little puppy brain. Yesterday it rained steadily all day long, and was a lot cooler, so I should have been expecting some shenanigans. And it was later in the afternoon, when the birds all started coming back to the coop, that he mauled the guinea. Oh, and after I posted that last night, I went out and found he'd mauled ANOTHER guinea. A rooster, probably the first one's mate. I totally understand the puppy thing, I'm just having trouble knowing what to do about it. It's been 14 years since I've had a pup - all the dogs we have were rescues and we got them as adults.

This morning I opened the door to let cats in, and noticed two white dogs playing on the hay bales on the neighbor's property across the road. ARGH! There are no neighbors there, it's just a huge hayfield. I grabbed the gate key and went out and called them - "Who, US?" OMG, the looks on their faces. Then they couldn't remember how they got IN there, and spent half an hour ranging up and down inside the fence. Finally, I went back to the house and grabbed a bag of liver and went back out there, thinking liver would help them remember, and wonder of wonders, it did. So they're back over here now, and got a few treats as a reward. Jasper took a couple of them out of my hand and I was standing, so that's an improvement right there. Before, he would only eat from my hand if I was sitting. And now my husband can spend the day looking for their hole in the fence, while I watch Jasper and the chickens.

I'll tell my husband we need to make some sort of a pen for him, and then I can work on trying to get him IN there. He's so suspicious. He's plenty friendly, and comes right to me when I call him, but never closer than 3 feet. At least for the moment. When we first got him, I figured it would take me a few days to gain his confidence and trust - I had NO idea it would be like this. At one point, I was going to take him back, but I couldn't catch him so he's still here. Then I decided he was worth working with, and will make an excellent dog, if I can just get him past his distrust of people. The thought keeps wandering back through my brain that he was abused in some way by his previous owner, but I don't want to think that. The guy seemed very nice, and very knowledgeable about the breed, and maybe it's just because none of the pups had much handling or other human contact.

By the way, my INTENT originally was to introduce him to the chickens on leash, and correct him if he showed too much interest, but I still haven't got a leash on him. I guess that needs to be my top priority.

~Lannie


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

You really need a pen of some sort. Because they are continuing to learn bad behavior which will take even longer to get under control.

Do you have any old fencing? t-post? pallets? anything?


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

if you do build him a pen, get some inexpensve fence wire...the welded kind is fine....and use a strip along the ground right under the edge of the fence and extending into his pen 2' or so. Stake it down to the ground using landscape fabric ground staples. This is to keep him from digging out. These dogs learn fast about what works and what doesn't. Preventing bad behaviours (like digging out and chicken-killing) are much easier than curing them once they are learned. The 16' cattle stock panels work great for these temporary pens. Get 4 panels and 8 tee-posts plus a roll of 2' tall welded wire and you will have yourself a good secure pen. Maybe run a piece of electric wire around the top if he seems tempted to climb over it.


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

OK, here's the plan. Rich (hubby) remembered that we have a roll of 5' tall field fencing from another unused section of fence we took down last year. I'd completely forgotten about it because it's still sitting out behind the shed, but it's not warped or rusted, and it's in good shape. T-posts we have, and we also have a couple of small rolls of 2' hardware cloth. We also have some chicken wire. The hardware cloth is very rigid and I don't know how hard it will be to bend it, but does anyone think chicken wire would work along the inside to prevent digging?

We don't have landscape fabric staples, but we have some old wire coathangers. I'm sure they can be used to make long staples.

Rich has enough 2x4s in the shop to make a gate and some corner posts, with t-posts in the middle spans, and we're going to put it outside the actual corral area, so our donkey-brained steer (no offense to any donkeys out there! LOL!) won't be able to push it down. I think we can get the pen built today, but first Rich has to go reinforce that section of fence where the dogs got out this morning (I found it).

So building the pen will be easy enough to do, I think, with what we can scrounge up around here, and the best place to put it will be right where the chickens pass by on their way out to forage. Now, getting Jasper IN the pen is going to be tricky, but my first thought is to take their food in there tomorrow, and hope he goes in, then we can shut the gate. I'll worry about letting Kiara out once they're both in there, but that shouldn't be a problem.

Rich was thinking of making a 10' x 10' pen. Is that going to be sufficient? Too big? Too small? Just right? 

As an update, both the guineas are OK this morning, but I realized when I was out there checking on them, that it's NOT a hen and a rooster, but two hens. I only have three hens and three roosters, and now two of the hens are "disabled." At least for now. Their boys are staying with them, and the hens show no inclination to leave the coop. The other pair is out and about, but hopefully they'll be OK. It's getting hot again today, and sunny, and last I checked, both the Pyrs were over on the far end of the cow pasture, in the shade, so maybe they'll stay there the rest of the day and I can help Rich get this pen built.

Now I have another question! Provided I get Jasper in the pen, and provided that electronic collar shows up today or tomorrow and I can put it on him, what's the best way to proceed after that? 

I thought that maybe I should put a long leash on him while the e-collar is on, and walk him around. Purposely go near the chickens, you know? And then if he zones on one, zap him as well as do the "EH!" sound. I really didn't want him to associate me with the zap, and was hoping to do it from a distance (the transmitter is supposed to have a 400 yard range). Eventually, I'll have to let him out of the pen, but if he's been in there long enough, he might not want to go back in. I'll give him his food in there, and spend time in there with him, and give him his liver treats in there, so I'll try to make it as pleasant as I can for him, but I'm just trying to think ahead.

And the whole leash thing is a big unknown also. When we brought him home, he just locked up. I tried to walk him around, and only succeeded in dragging him a bit. Obviously, he'd never seen a leash before, so it might take me a while to get him used to that before we can even try exposing him to the chickens.

The other thing is he's growing FAST. The collar that was on him when we got him was loose enough, but it only took 3 weeks before it was way too tight. The e-collar will have to be fitted snug for it to work, which means it will have to be adjusted frequently. As long as he's in the pen, I could do that, but once I let him out, if I can't get hold of him for a while, I'm afraid of choking him.

I honestly think he's going to be a great dog, and I'm willing to put in whatever work is needed to help him get there, but I have to say if I had this to do over again, I wouldn't have gotten a pup. Or at least not a TEENAGE pup. Maybe a little one would have been easier in the long run. From now on, though, I think I'll stick to adult dogs. 

~Lannie


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

glad you can get a pen together! That's a great start! 10x10 is probably kind of small, but if that's all you can do then go for it. You will probably want to do your first leash training lessons inside that pen so in case he slips his collar, you can get him back easy. 

The chicken wire should work under the fence, unless he already knows about digging and then he may be too persistant for chicken wire to stop him. 

Personally, I think I'd wait in the E-collar until you can handle him on a leash. Otherwise he may associate the leash with getting shocked and you don't need that to happen. Get him leash trained well in advance and then work on stock safety. You are going to have to go slow with this pup. He needs to learn to trust you first, before any training can happen. 

One problem with the Ecollar is the probes can cause skin damage if left on too long. So you will probably have to make sure you can handle him before beginning work with that collar. 

I am afraid as skittish as that dog is, this whole process is going to take a while. I cna't imagine why on earth that breeder didn't socialize those dogs better than he did. that would infuriate me to end up with a pup like that.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Lannie your doing great!!! I knew if you looked around you could find something:goodjob:

Get it built ASAP and get his little but in there. You are in charge now of his comings and goings.


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

Should we make the pen more like 10' x 15'? I don't know if a much bigger one than that will fit in the space we want to put it, and that would be the best PLACE to put a pen. I'm sure we have enough fence to make a bigger pen, and I know we have a bunch of spare t-posts, so I'll just tell him to make it as big as he can fit there. The t-posts are on hand because in the winter when the snow drifts over the fences, we wire more t-posts to the top of the existing ones and string a couple of strands of barbed wire to keep the horses in. There's nothing we can do about the dogs in the winter except try to keep the fencelines cleared, but there's a lot of fenceline and only one husband to run the Bobcat. LOL!

Thanks so much for the help, you guys. I'm really NOT a stupid person, but I think I did a stupid thing here. Oh, well, like I said, I think he has potential, and I'd like to see this through, so I don't want to give up on him. As my hubby told me a week or so ago, "What's a few chickens if we end up with a really good dog eventually?" He's right.

The last time I had to deal with a puppy, it was a house dog, and my biggest worries were him pooping in the house or chewing on the table legs.  This is somewhat different, I'm finding out.  I know it will take time to work through all this with Jasper, but I have time. I have other animals and chores to take care of, but at least I'm home all the time.

OK, off to work on the pen now! Wish me luck, PLEASE! 

~Lannie

Oh, and I will definitely wait to use the e-collar on him. In addition to "taming" him and getting him used to the leash, I think it would behoove me to take his collar off and on, including the e-collar (without zapping, of course) WHILE he's in the pen, so he knows that adjusting or changing a collar doesn't mean he has to try to strangle his silly self. I'm such an optimist... I hope this works...


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Lannie mine was 8 x 16. I raked the poo out everyday after work. I placed a tarp over the top for shade and to keep critters from coming in (also mine were 8 weeks old) . Also my boys dug, but they never dug out. That is also how they keep cool by digging holes.

I wish you much luck Lannie you can do this. Spend every moment you can with him. When my boys could be trusted they were free to mingle within the paddock with the sheep. Now they mingle with the sheep in the field. Yesterday they mingled with the rams. Build that trust with your puppy first, then chickens. Make sure he can see them. When you are out there make sure he knows they are yours. let him smell them and correct if he acts ill. It will take possibly a couple of months. But I promise it will be worth it. Goatress, Bearfootfarm and others here taught me. They raise LGD's, ask questions even ones you think maybe stupid. I know I did and still do, they answer and everything they told me worked. And my LGD's are wonderful and I trained them with the help of this group.


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## jordan (Nov 29, 2006)

That's great news that you'll be able to get a pen built for him! 10x10 is pretty small and I think you might be being a little optimistic if you think he'll be out of it in a week or two!
I would recommend starting very slowly with this boy! Your first priority will have to be earning his trust and making him comfortable with being handled by you. That means no sudden moves, no leash training and no stock training for a while. Luckily, it really doesn't sound as if this pup has alot of other behavioral issues that need to be dealt with immediately. Most seem to be connected to his lack of socialization. Be prepared to spend a lot of time in there for at least a month until he learns you can be trusted not to do 'horrible' things to him! Once you get him to the point where you can run your hands over him without him freezing up on you, you can proceed with the next step of training. He is still young enough that this can be turned around with patience and time.
Good luck Lannie!
Lois


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

jordan said:


> That's great news that you'll be able to get a pen built for him! 10x10 is pretty small and I think you might be being a little optimistic if you think he'll be out of it in a week or two!
> I would recommend starting very slowly with this boy! Your first priority will have to be earning his trust and making him comfortable with being handled by you. That means no sudden moves, no leash training and no stock training for a while. Luckily, it really doesn't sound as if this pup has alot of other behavioral issues that need to be dealt with immediately. Most seem to be connected to his lack of socialization. Be prepared to spend a lot of time in there for at least a month until he learns you can be trusted not to do 'horrible' things to him! Once you get him to the point where you can run your hands over him without him freezing up on you, you can proceed with the next step of training. He is still young enough that this can be turned around with patience and time.
> Good luck Lannie!
> Lois



I completely agree!!


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

Yes, I AM overly optimistic, but that's a good thing, most of the time. So it might take longer than I thought. I'll keep on pluggin' till I get where I need to be. If nothing else, these dogs are teaching me patience. 

Well, we're just now starting on the pen. I swear, that man has one speed, and it's SLOW. It's not his fault, he hardly has any vertebrae left in his back and no cartilage in his knees, so he really only can go so fast. We just got the whole length of the front fence inspected and fixed where there was even a suggestion that someone might push out. I guess that was the most important thing today, to make sure they at least stay on the property.

I know they dig to turn up cool dirt to lie in, and yes, they both do it. They've got sleeping holes dug under quite a few of the wild plum trees here already. But neither one of them are "diggers" at this point, so we're going to do the chicken wire thing in the pen to prevent that thought from even occurring.

And we're going to make the pen as big as we can. We have about 24 feet of barn side to build off of. Rich wanted to set it back some from the front of the barn (the corral fence comes off the corner of the barn right there), but there's still some space left, and we can make it a bit wider I think to have a good sized pen. And yes, there will be a tarp on it for shade and rain. Part of it will have to come down the side because the pen will be on the west side of the barn, so there's going to be sun all afternoon. I'll make sure he's got shade and cover, though, no worries. 

Thanks for all the tips and advice! If you think of something else, sing out, I'm all ears. 

~Lannie


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

Oh, Lois, I forgot to say, yes, I'm moving very slowly with Jasper. I have him eating his breakfast only two feet from me right now, but _I have to look the other way!_ If I look AT him, he gets nervous and backs up. I'm working on just quick glances now and then, and maybe soon I'll be able to look at him while he eats. I can look at him when I'm giving him liver treats, but when he's got his bowl in front of him, he doesn't want me too close, or watching him. So, yes, I'll be spending a lot of time out in the pen with him. My dearest wish is the day I can go in, he runs up to me, I ruffle his fur and he wags his tail and smiles at me. Of course Kiara does that, but Jasper thinks she's lying when she says I'm OK. 

Alright, now it's back outside with me. Time to dig holes and pound t-posts.

~Lannie


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## horsepoor21 (Mar 14, 2007)

Completely off subject but where abouts in SD are you ? We've lived in several places in SD but my favorite was Belle Fourche ! I miss SD so much !


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Lannie I remember now your husband called me looking for pups. Had seen one of my ads. I remember the Pyr dropping dead and he was in SD and didn't know what happened. Just wondering, could it have been heat stroke? Do your dogs have shade? How is the female doing, by the way? She has had some trauma.


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

We're about 80 or 85 miles east of Belle Foosh (that pronunciation always cracks me up!) by road. Not too terribly far from you now if you're in northeastern Montana. We WANTED to move to Montana, but we couldn't find anything we could afford there. Where we are now is CHEAP because no sane person would live out here. 

Back to the pen... Rich submarined me. Not only does he move slooowwwwly, but he's a perfectionist. Worse than I am. I was ready to throw up some t-posts and field fencing, which I could have done myself, if push came to shove, but he decided if he was going to build a pen, it was by gosh and by golly going to be a GOOD pen. So he drew it out (we have enough materials to make a 16' x 22' pen, so that will have to do), and he's going to do it in wood framing with wire on the ends, and a door, and steel siding on the west (long) side. So there'll be some shade in there no matter where the sun is. Then he's going to put a top over part of it so there'll be shelter from rain.

He was going to build a dog house thing inside it, but I talked him out of that because I didn't want Jasper hiding inside a small structure if I was trying to work with him. That was my first mistake. Now he's going to build a Taj Mahal. Well, at least I can be pretty sure it won't fall over in a strong wind.

However, it's going to take two days to build. All we managed to do today was get all the materials out there. Naturally, all the lumber was up in the rafters of the shop. You should have seen us. One old fart (him) up on the ladder trying to tease down one 16' 2x4 at a time, another old fart (me) trying to get them out of the shop without knocking everything (including him) over. It was like one of those movies! ound: Tomorrow he has to auger the post holes, set the posts, put up the top and bottom boards, the wire, the steel, and then mount the door. Thankfully we have an old screen door in the shop that (I think) came off an old chicken coop, but it will work. No doubt Rich will then need to PAINT the entire shebang to match the rest of the buildings here. 

Well, at least it's on its way now. Much better than, "I don't have the materials or the time to build a pen." He DID have the materials, and he'll make the time.

So far, so good...

~Lannie


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

Goatress said:


> Lannie I remember now your husband called me looking for pups. Had seen one of my ads. I remember the Pyr dropping dead and he was in SD and didn't know what happened. Just wondering, could it have been heat stroke? Do your dogs have shade? How is the female doing, by the way? She has had some trauma.


He called you?? I thought I had done all the calling, and I think I only called the one guy in Wyoming.

But no, the vet didn't think it was heat stroke that killed Cowboy. Actually, what she THOUGHT it might be was some sort of infection inside that we didn't know about that went septic. When I thought back on it, I remembered that right from the time we got him, he liked to go in my comfrey patch and nibble leaves. I thought at the time that he must need some "healing" inside, but he seemed okay then and he checked out fine at the vet. We don't really know exactly what it was, but she suspected a deep seated infection, and he might have had it before we got him. I also wonder if that's why the girl we got him from never contacted us again. She claimed to love him to death and she was going to miss him horribly (she was going to a dorm in college), but although Rich gave her our phone number and both our e-mails, she never contacted us. Maybe she knew. If so, I wish she'd told us so we could have done something THEN. Then maybe he'd still be with us. But there's no sense in playing the "woulda, coulda, shoulda" game, is there? What is, is.

Now we have Jasper, and maybe we were meant to have Jasper for some reason. Just between you and me, Cowboy was originally a pet and he really didn't care too much for the whole LGD lifestyle. He did it, but mostly he wanted to be lying on our feet, getting petted. I don't want to sound like I didn't appreciate Cowboy or love him with all my heart, because I did. But maybe it's good that we have Jasper now. Well, it WILL be good. Someday. 

To answer your other questions, yes, they have plenty of shade, that's not a problem. And several sources of water, which I keep cleaned and refilled daily, so they're fine in that respect. They have full run of our entire 15 acres, and all the trees and outbuildings. And Kiara bounced right back, as I thought she would if we brought her a new buddy. She's still doing a fabulous job. If I could just get her to knock some sense into that young 'un! LOL!

~Lannie


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

Your "little" Jasper is going to be a pup for quite awhile. Some are real boneheads so be thankful for your patience!
A heads up on the E collar; I found that if it's not turned off at the collar the batteries only last about two weeks. So yeah you definetly are going to need to be able to fiddle with it while he's wearing it.
Another thing he's going to need is stuff to chew on, even if it's tree branches or pieces of wood.
Our boys are pretty much past the chew stage but Im still wary of putting out anything like plastic mineral feeders.


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

Thanks! Yes, I know about the batteries on the collar. What I'm hoping is it will only take a couple of zaps. He's not obsessed with the chickens at all, they just happen to make fine squeaky toys when he's bored. But once Jasper's in the pen, then I can take it off and put it on as I need to. But not at first. First I have to work on trust, confidence, and leash training.

He does have other "toys." There are a couple actual toys, but his favorite seems to be a deer skull from the last road kill we were able to pick up. He packs it around everywhere. We also have a supply of miscellaneous meaty bones in the garage freezer that they get some of every couple of days. That seems to keep him occupied as well.

My two wounded and featherless guinea hens ventured out today, accompanied by their roosters, and at one point, Jasper was watching them, but that was it. He turned away and went back to lie under his shade tree with Kiara. I'm glad because those poor hens have been through enough to last them for a while. I'd at least like their feathers to grow back before he mauls them again.  But with any luck, he won't. I think he only wants to "play" when they're running, and those poor girls were moving kinda slow. They're OK, but I'll bet they're sore and bunged up from his roughhousing. They're walking fine, and eating the grasshoppers their boys catch for them, and I think they'll survive.

Well, now all the chickens are locked up for the night, the cows have been fed and all is well here at Love Acres. Time for me to kick back and put my poor sore feet up in front of the TV.

I'll try to get a picture of the Taj Mahal and post it as soon as we get it done. Then maybe one with Jasper IN it! LOL!

~Lannie


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I would bring the dog in the house. Yes, you read that right. I know people who have Pyrs in the house, and other real big dogs. In the house, he'll learn to trust you faster, and you don't have to worry about what he's doing outside. Outside, you are with him.

Build the pen, but give him three places to be, house, pen, and loose. Feed him in the house until the pen is made, then feed him in the pen to make it a good place to be. I'd put him in the house at night, let him loose in the morning, then put him in the pen with a chew toy (if he has an interest in such things) after he's run around a bit and is ready to settle down. Only let him out of the pen when you are there to supervise. As time goes by and he is more trustworthy, you can start leaving him outside at night a bit at a time. 

I'd also get him comfortable being in the car/truck Also, praise and reward him when he moves away from a chicken.


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

The same thoughts had also crossed my mind, Maura, but we have a tiny house and there are already two large dogs in here. Another large dog, and a goofy hyper puppy to boot, would put me over the edge. The housetraining alone would be a full time job. One of my housedogs is an inoffensive, old, doddering female Lab/Golden cross, but the other one is a large male Dobie. He's a nice boy, but he has his own goofy moments, and I'd be afraid to leave them alone in the house together for even a minute. We don't have any room for a crate.

But you're right, he'd definitely get used to us faster that way. I just can't do it. The pen will have to be sufficient, and I'll just have to sit out there with him in all of my spare time. I won't mind, though, he's a great dog and I really like him.

The pen still isn't built, however, because Rich wanted to level the ground there (there's a hump that will interfere with his straight wood fence) and the Bobcat has gone south on us. It's always been a problem, but now it just won't start. Period. So we have to have a guy come out and try to fix it (he thinks it needs a new starter and fuel pump) the end of next week. I told Rich to BUILD THE FLIPPIN' THING ANYWAY, and who cares if there's a hump. So he's going to work on it today. Holy, cow, if we'd just used t-posts and field fencing it would have been done two days ago... 'course, it might not have been Jasper-proof, either.

I still have to figure out how to get Jasper in there once it's done. Someone suggested putting a nice meaty bone in the back, tied to the pen so he can't run in, grab it, and run out. I'm not convinced he'd run in even if there was a T-bone steak on a silver platter in there, but who knows? My mom always told me, "Don't borrow trouble," so I'm going to remain open-minded, and think positive thoughts.  I will start putting his food by the door, then in the doorway, then in the pen over a period of days, and walking away, then one day when it's in the pen and he goes in after it, I'll shut the door on him. I think that's the best plan at this point, but if anyone has any better ideas, I'm all ears.

In the meantime, I'll just continue on as I have been, and try to keep an eye on him when I can. I always tell him, "Good BOY!" when he's walking away from the chickens, or just lying in the shade doing nothing when the chickens walk by. This morning, he went over to cautiously sniff the guineas, and I just watched (he didn't know I was there). He didn't even get close enough to cause them to start quacking (my silly work for their alarm calls), then turned and left. THEN I said, "Good BOY!" and I scared him! LOL! He didn't know I was there and he jumped when I said that. It's good for him to think I can be anywhere at any time, though.  It'll keep him honest.

~Lannie


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I think your idea for getting him into that pen is a great one. That's the same method used to teach horses not to be afraid of horse trailers. I am glad that you are so willing to do the work it will take for this pup. He will probably be a really great dog....some day. Hopefully someday SOON!!


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## jordan (Nov 29, 2006)

I think you've got a very good plan in place and I really like that you are so willing to put in the work that this boy requires! Too many short-sighted people would throw in the towel rather than bother to even make the effort. One of my Spanish Mastiffs was difficult as a teenager and redefined 'selectively deaf', but we just kept correcting and working with her and she is a phenominal guard now!
Good luck Lannie! I'm sure he will be well worth the effort!
Lois


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

Aww, shucks, it ain't nuthin'! LOL! But seriously, I'm not one to give up on an animal. In my entire life, I've had only one failure, and it was MY failure completely, because I didn't know enough myself and I listened to too many "experts." (That was before I found out that "experts" do NOT know everything! LOL!) But at least I learned something from it, and that's the important part.

I took a wild range cow, half Hereford, and made the most wonderful milk cow out of her, and now her daughter as well. I've gotten any number of rescue dogs, either from actual rescues (I'm partial to Dobies) or from shelters, and have worked with them to overcome their fears and anxieties, and some take a long time, while others are just happy to have a stable, loving home. My last "project" was a mare we saved from auction that was deathly afraid of everyone. I suspect abuse. It look a LONG time with her, but she's a back pocket horse now. I'm not young anymore, and I'd like to think I've learned something in my years here on earth. One of them is trying to think like the animal I'm working with. Dogs, cats, and horses are a piece of cake. Cows were a little harder, because they were new to me, but hey, the same psychology (basically) works on them all. Patience and observation go a long way.

But whatever. What I'm trying to say is that I've made the commitment to Jasper and I can SEE the good LGD in him, so I'll do whatever I need to do to help him achieve that.

By the way, the e-collar finally arrived today, but after reading the instructions, I definitely won't be using it right away. It's not something I can just put on him and leave for days or weeks at a time. So there will be considerable pen time spent getting him used to being handled and collars (including the e-collar) going on and off, and on and off, then leash walking. He locked up the first day we had him, when he was on the leash, but if he's in the pen and can't get out UNLESS he's on the leash, maybe it will change his attitude about it. He pushed my button and I gave in, softie that I am. I could see his fear that day - he'd just been physically removed from the only life he ever knew and thrown into a completely new situation with new people, new animals, new location. Yeah, I caved. BUT! Now I know better. If there's ever another puppy, it will be into the pen with him! LOL! Then we'll see about everything else.

I should have done that first, but you know what they say about hindsight.  The School of Hard Knocks is aptly named. 

~Lannie


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I think your strategy for training is good, much better than the e-collar. With your experience and his character I doubt you will need it.

With a big dog a 20' leash will be easier to work than a 6' leash, especially since he's not used to the leash.


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

I have a 15' leash. I guess that will have to do. 

He was very good today. No chicken chasing (that I saw), and all the poultry are now in the coop, present and accounted for. 

~Lannie


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

We had an incident today. It was totally my fault, and I'm already kicking myself hard enough, so please don't yell at me for being stupid, OK? I already feel about as bad as I can.

This morning the butcher came out to kill our steer and take him back to the shop for hanging and cutting. I was so worried about MY feelings (I've grown quite fond of that steer, against my own better judgement), that I completely did NOT think to remove Kiara to a safe place before the guy got here. She's shy of strangers so when someone comes to the house, she runs to the other side of the pasture and barks at them from there. Well, the butcher came over with a helper, and the neighbor came over with his tractor to hoist the steer for gutting, and I went in the house so I wouldn't have to watch.

The butcher popped the steer in the forehead with a .22 to knock him out, and then slit his throat, hoisted him up and bled him out. Kiara heard the pop, then saw her pasture buddy fall down "dead." (He wasn't dead yet, but he was a few minutes later.) She took off like a SHOT, with Jasper hot on her heels. I heard Jasper yipping frantically from the open dining room window, and when I looked out, I saw Kiara flash by on the wrong side of the fence. I ran out immediately, but they were GONE. Flat GONE. I don't know how they got out, but Kiara was dead panicked, so who knows, but Jasper found a way out and was gone with her and I CAN'T FIND THEM. We've been out looking all day, on foot and by car. One of the neighbors that owns the adjoining property came over and drove me all through their pastures, but I never saw a thing. I called them and called them. Nothing. I did call everyone who lives in the area and asked them to call if they see them, and we're the only ones around who have "white dogs," so they know where they belong, but I haven't gotten any phone calls yet, either.

They've been gone since 7:15 this morning so it's been 11 hours now. Kiara's shy of loud noises anyway, gunfire, thunder, whatever, and she'll normally run and hide somewhere on the property if we have to shoot a skunk or something, but this time a stranger came here and killed one of her animals. I KNOW BETTER than to let her see that, but I must have left my brain somewhere else this morning because I certainly wasn't using it.

There are only two roads in the area, one going east-west in front of our place and a crossroad about half a mile up. We've been up and down both roads for about 5 miles in all directions and haven't found them hit by a car, so I assume they're out on the grassland somewhere. Unfortunately, we've had a wet summer, so there are hundreds of ponds full of water out there. Kiara can go days without eating if she has water, and I assume Jasper will stay with her, but he hasn't missed a meal since he got here, and I worry about him chasing something (all there are are calves and cows around here, though, much too big for him to kill).

Please tell me they'll be back. I kept thinking they'd be back in a couple of hours, but the whole day has gone and they're still not here. Maybe when it starts to get dark? I just don't know what else to do, except keep worrying and kicking myself in the butt.

~Lannie


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

OK Lannie I'm going to be the hard, cold voice of reason here...there is absolutely nothing - NOTHING...anyone on this board can do for you. You need to stay off the computer and keep looking for your dogs. They may come back. They may not. Next time you'll lock your dogs up when you know its butchering time (we do here when we butcher our sheep). Most LGD's are petrified of gun shots....and will bolt and run. She may come back. Him? Who knows. Best of luck. Sorry to sound so cold but this is part of the experience and learning process....we ALL make mistakes. The important thing is to learn from them and not repeat.....sorry to hear this. Hope for their sake they come back....


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

I know. Thank you. This is our first butchering, and I forgot. I KNOW it's my fault. I _have_ been out looking all day. I was taking a break. I'm 54 years old and I can only walk so far before I have to stop for a while. Now it's too dark to see, so I'm back in the house. I shouldn't have posted that earlier, and I apologize.

~Lannie


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I am so sorry you lost your dogs. Hoping for some better news this morning?


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

He/she should be there this morning, their just scared right now. Good luck Lannie.


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

They're back now. Safe and sound. 

~Lannie


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> They're back now. Safe and sound.


That's* great*!!


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## 246ranch (Jun 30, 2011)

That's great news......glad they came back to you.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Awesome!!!! they know who loves them


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

Well, they know who feeds them.  But Kiara WAS happy that I found them. She couldn't get enough huggin' and kissin' once she was back in. I think once it got dark last night they tried to come back but couldn't remember how they got out. Evidently they spent the night down in the ravine just outside our perimeter fence. There's a big old woodpile from an old cabin that fell down ages ago, and a spring, so it would have been a good place to hunker down. 

I went outside before first light and called, but I still couldn't see anything (and they didn't bark), then once I could see a bit, I went out to the north end of our property, which is the direction I thought they might have gone, and they were just outside the northeast corner. I walked along inside the fence, and they followed along outside, back around the the front and through the gate (which was wide open all night, but they didn't find it), where they got liver treats followed by breakfast. Jasper was leading, by the way, but I think it was because he was HUNGRY and he knew I'd have something for him to eat.

Thankfully, everything's back to normal, and I will NOT be making that same mistake again. Usually, I think things through forward and backward, "What will happen if do this? Or that?" I have no excuse other than I was very stressed out and I wasn't thinking. But I've learned my lesson the hard way, and I won't forget again.

~Lannie


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## 246ranch (Jun 30, 2011)

Lannie,
We have all learned these lessons.....the hard way. I am just so glad your two came back...You might even find that Jasper is a little easier to deal with, I would be curious to know.
gain, glad it all worked out.
Kate Howe
Coban


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

I'm sorry I've been absent, but I'm having a medical emergency with my cow, and I've been running myself ragged the last two days trying to keep her going until I can get her in to the vet tomorrow. (Why do they only get sick on weekends and holidays?) 

But, Kate, you said something about maybe Jasper would be easier to deal with now, and I'm curious what you mean by that. Because he IS. He hasn't chased a chicken since they came back. The chickens and guineas have been ranging around completely at ease, and Jasper has been at his "guard post" in the shade of the trees by the corral, in plain view of them, but he hasn't bothered a one. I had a crazy thought that maybe he viewed being shut out as punishment for "being bad" (or that Kiara gave him what-for Friday night and told him it was all HIS fault they were out - LOL!) but I didn't want to Disnify his behavior too much.

So, he IS behaving himself perfectly, but I don't know why? Why do you think it is? I know they're whip-smart, but just HOW smart are they, really?

As an example of the change in his behavior, yesterday afternoon Rich was cutting sheet metal for the pen and the noise was substantial, so I went out to the pasture to find the dogs and see if they wanted treats. I found them in the shade of some trees on the hill, so I backed up to Jasper and sat down beside him. He stayed there, and I gave him several treats out of my hand, but then Kiara got in my lap and when I pushed her off, she stepped on Jasper's feet, so he got up and moved off a bit, then laid down again. So I got up, walked over to him, handed him a treat and then just put my hand on his head. He froze with the treat still in his nippers while I petted all over his head, down his back, down his legs, back up and under his chin, all down his back again, and he even let me pull on some burdocks he has stuck in his hair. I couldn't get them out, but I had a foot of loose puppy skin pulled up and he didn't even say boo. As soon as I took my hand away, he ate his liver bit. But that was HUGE. That's the most I've been able to touch him since he was in the car coming home with us. If I can do that again when I have scissors with me, maybe I can cut those burrs out.

I have high hopes for him now. I know eventually he'll turn out to be a great dog, but it might happen sooner than I thought, at least as far as being able to handle him, get him in the pen, and so on.

The freezing up when I touch him is due to fear, obviously, so if I can get him in the pen and spend a lot of close-time with him, he should get over that pretty quick, right? I don't think it's me in particular he's afraid of, just people in general. 

~Lannie


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## 246ranch (Jun 30, 2011)

Lannie,
In my experience, dogs live in the here and now......they have no future and no past. Although Jasper is still coyote he doesn't know or remember why, just that he associates people with bad feelings.
He now associates you with good happy feelings, you were there, you most likely expressed joy at finding them...dogs read this emotion as good. This episode gave you a real jump ahead as he felt good about you... just that simple.... not so much smart as open and ready to act on all emotions. You let your guard down too when they returned, you showed no aprehension at dealing with him...just that joy..... just keep letting him want to be with you and to follow. This will work better than going to him and expecting too much....
Kate


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

Thank you, that makes total sense. I know dogs don't normally carry baggage around, unless it's been conditioned into them or was very seriously traumatic, but I think Jasper is young enough to overcome any conditioning without too much trouble.

As far as following me, he does that already, and has for most of the time he's been here. He's insanely curious, naturally, so even when Kiara decides to stay in her spot of shade, if I go out to the pasture or dink around the barns for a while, he comes in and shadows me. It's just if I turn around and look at him that he stops and hesitates. If I never turned around, he'd just follow me everywhere I went. Maybe I should just do that.

I should still get him in the pen, though, right? Or no? I'd really like to get a brush on him, and I need to get those burrs out before they end up embedded down next to his skin, not to mention his dewclaws need trimming, and just get him used to me touching him more so he can see that touching is a good thing.

~Lannie


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

That really sounds promising. I don't think this pup was ever abused, he just never knew human kindness either. He is curious about you though, and does follow you so I think you have a lot to work with. I'd still pen him up and work on getting him to come around faster.

I wonder if you got bits of raw meat and started putting a couple of pieces on top of his dog food. Sit there with him at a short distance while he eats his dinner. And then once he comes to expect it, start bringing it to him in your hand. Maybe he will want it enough to sneak in and get it from you?


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## 246ranch (Jun 30, 2011)

Lannie,
Great to get him to the pen.... if for no other reason than that will add one more thing to his resume...make the pen a fun place though for the first few visits...eat there, play there and then leave. Then try brushing etc... without closing the pen up. Always stay with him the first few times you do close the pen so that he has a comfort zone.
I think you're on the road now..just keep it light and interesting for him and he'll come along fast. I forgot to ask you, will he walk on a lead? Does he obey simple commands, sit stay? You might incorporate a short leash into his daily tasks, one that he can walk with that does not touch the ground, you can begin to use it more and more as you work with him...a leash is not only for your control of a dog, but it also gives the dog a connection to you.....This will help down the road if you ever need to handle him for the vet or a truck ride etc......
Kate


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

BarbadosSheep, raw meat IS his food! LOL! I had to think of something even better (cooked liver bits) for treats. And I've been using those treats in the evenings to get him to eat from my hand. When I feed him, I put his dish about 3 feet from me, and he doesn't hesitate at all. The last few days that he's been hungry enough to eat, I've been moving it a little closer. He'll still come to it, but he keeps an eye on me while he eats.  Yesterday and today, however, neither dog has been hungry. They've been filling up on the steer's guts.  It's just stomach and intestines, so not a complete menu for them, but hey, it's a treat, I guess. Maybe like ice cream to humans. :icecream:

No, Kate, no leash training as far as I know. The night we brought him home, I put a leash on him, intending to walk him around a bit and show him the place and he locked up and wouldn't move. I tried everything I could think of short of carrying him, and ended up dragging him a few feet, then I gave up and let him go. And that was that! LOL! It's been a long haul ever since to get him close enough to pet or take a treat from my hand.

I've never had a dog that was this wild before. I've had abused dogs (and I agree, I don't think Jasper was ever abused, just ignored) and the abuse cases were actually easier to overcome. At least those dogs knew the value of pets and treats and walks, even if they hadn't experienced them recently. This is like having a wild wolf pup and trying to tame him, so that's how I'm going to try to handle it. Not that I have any experience taming wild wolf pups...  But I do have some "regular" dog experience, so I'll do my best with him.

Right now, the only commands he knows are to stop (EH!) and "DROP IT!" Those he knows.  We'll work on some others once I can follow through with a request. I don't like to ask a dog to do anything unless I can make sure he does it, otherwise, they just learn to ignore my quacking, you know? He doesn't even come every time I call him, but he DOES pop up wherever he happens to be to see what I'm doing and I can see where he is. If he doesn't come in, then I walk around looking like I'm doing something really interesting  and he usually comes to see what that interesting thing might be. So in a way, I'm trying to teach him to "come," even though I can't enforce it immediately. Once I can get the long leash on him, it will go a lot faster, I think.

~Lannie


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

I forgot to say in my last post, I do know that LGDs will eat animal remains in order to keep predators away, whether it be a livestock animal that died, or the entrails from the steer, or the rabbit in the garden who died suddenly from acute lead poisoning. 

~Lannie


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## Faithful (Jul 15, 2011)

I am glad they came back.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Here is a pic of when I first got my LGD's. As you can see they are super cute. But I had to allow them to bond with the sheep. I built a pen in the sheep paddock, and a pen in the barn with the sheep at night. They were allowed out under my supervison.


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

OMG, the pups were too cute! Thanks for posting the pics! :grin:

With all the problems with my cow, and all the trips back and forth to the vet, the dog pen has gone to the back burner temporarily. Jasper's been good, though. I haven't been able to spend as much time with him as I was (busy with the cow) but he's been behaving himself perfectly, and all the poultry are returning to the coop at night.  I think the cow's gonna make it, and shortly I can get back to my puppy stuff. YAY!

~Lannie


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