# Bad dog bite



## Lizzieag (Jul 9, 2007)

Hi everyone,
Tomorrow I am going to a friend's house to help with an badly injured buck. A few weeks back he was attacked by a dog and now (despite vet treatment and antibiotics) he is badly infected. All of the bites are one his neck, head and face. The face ones aren't that bad, but his ear was nearly torn off by the dog and he has very deep lacerations. Our goal tomorrow is to remove all of the dead tissue and infection, hopefully giving him a chance to heal. We are still hoping to save the ear, but it doesn't sound promising. (I haven't yet seen it)

I know that somewhere on this forum, there is a picture of a goat that lost an ear to a dog attack. I really wanted to look at the posts about that and talk to that member. Several searches haven't come up with what I am looking. Does anyone know what I am talking about?

Also any wonderful words of wisdom? I used to do wound care at a hospital, so I am assuming that this will be about the same, just in the cold and with "hair" in the way. But I could always use any advice!
Liz


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## AnnaS (Nov 29, 2003)

I had a successful treatment of infected (clostridia) bite wounds in a goat, so I'll share. We started with conventional treatment which was not effective, and switched to organic, which was effective.

The goat was bitten by a coyote in the neck, hind quarters and abdomen. The abdominal bite penetrated several muscle layers but did not enter the abdominal cavity. 

The area around the wounds was surgically clipped and wounds rinsed with buffered iodine immeadiately. The goat was initially put on oral oxytet, SQ penicillin & furzol (spelling?) topical by the vet within 3 hours of the bites. He also got 5 days of banamine for pain control. Wounds were debrided and rinsed with providone iodine solution 2x a day.

By day 5, the skin around the abdominal wound became dark, "crackly" when touched, necrotic, and sloughed off about 1/4 in. all around per day. Vet diagnosed gas gangrene (clostridia) of the skin and recommended more aggressive debridement. Goat was taken off banamine and switched to aspirin 4x a day.

By day 10, there was a 8 in. by five in. area of exposed muscle over the ribs where the skin had died and been removed. The antibiotic treatment was at an end, the infection still spreading and vet believed the clostridia infection would go systemic any day. The goat was still active, bright, and eating.

On day 11, "organic" treatment was started with an organic dairy specialist as consultant. The wound was still debrided & rinsed with a weak providone iodine solution 2x a day, but all antibiotics were discontinued. Instead of furzol, *buckwheat honey* was applied to a surgical dressing and applied to the wound. Oral garlic, the equiv. of 1 clove 2x a day, was also given. The 4x aspirin was continued until day 20.

By day 13, the wound margins were no longer necrotic. The infection had stopped expanding. By day 15, the wound had begun healing. 40 days later, the wound was entirely healed.

I was surprised to find many studies on the use of honey in wound healing, especially necrotic wounds. You can read them here with a keyword search of "honey". http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

That's really interesting about the use of honey for treating wounds. I remember from bee biology that honey produces hydrogen perioxide when it gets wet. That keeps it from spoiling and I'll bet that is at least partly what is killing the bacteria.


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## Cheribelle (Jul 23, 2007)

I also know a woman who cured bedsores on her paralized son with sugar. The doctors had tried for years, they were clear to the bone. She healed him.


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## DQ (Aug 4, 2006)

I know a buck recently that mysteriously tore his ear. they removed it. if the ear is really bad it might be in his best interest to have it gone. hate for you to lose a goat trying to save an ear. did they clip the hair off around the wounds? (you said you were working around hair)
In a horse that I treated that had nearly removed his back leg in a trailer accident we smeared red oil all up inside his wound after cleaning all the puss out and trimming the obviously dead stuff off (shudder... I could reach inside his body through his upper thigh) if I remember right the red oil had to be aquired from the vet, it wasn't the same stuff at the feed store. from my understanding it actually promoted scar tissue to form and that allowed it to heal up from the inside out. just an idea for you to research.
I have slabbered on tons of neosporin after trimming the hair off from around bite wounds that were deep punctures and it worked well. I am doing the same with my little boer doeling who was "plucked" by my dog whom had dug under the fence recently. I didn't feel at all bad when I strung up electric fence and she (the dog) got a good zap next time she tried it. ha.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

not the same at all, but our dog was mauled by another dog. Over 60 deep puncture wounds to the neck, ear almost completely ripped off and punctured numerous times, lower leg punctured all the way through. The vet went in and surgically cleaned up all the damaged tissue under the neck skin - we had to debride her 2x a day for 10 days. No pain killers (dang vet!) and some antibiotics. Dog was up and on the rebound by day 5. 

I guess only the wounds sound similar.... wanted to say I'm sorry and wish you, your friend, and the animal the best of luck.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Honey does amazing things. It heals skin crack almost overnight.

Apply the honey, cover with bandage, next day pretty much better on humans.

Worth a try...


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Packing wounds, packing prolapses with sugar is a well known remedy and works very well.

The whole idea of oral antibiotics in a goat, 4 aspirin and some of the rest of it is why the meds don't work, it can't, oraly antibiotics in a ruminant can only profilactically keep problems at bay once treated...and 4 aspirin is a dosage for an infant goatling every 4 hours, why we don't use aspirin in goats...13 normal aspirin per 100 pounds of goat! You'll ruin the rumen before the aspirin could even work.

The first thing you do with wounds like this is to treat for clostridials, you will be lucky if he doesn't die of tetanus at day 21. Using Covexin 8 so you have vaccines for black leg if he does think this is gas gangrene.

B vitmains, Bo-se to boost his immunity, subq fluids, and stop giving him anything orally except hay until his rumen is working.

Tetanus antitoxin at this point.

Vet treatment hasn't worked because it's highly unlikely enough of any of the meds were given, any 300,000 unit penicillin given at 3cc per 50 pounds every 12 hours would have healed this up by now. And a vet who didn't put this goat on IV antibiotics doesn't think much of your friends herd.

No amount of diluting iodine will stop it from necrosing the tissue, and is likely why you are seeing the dried crackly areas, not from clostridial disease. Use chlorhexideen, a wonderful disenfectant that also moisturises. But yes the packing with sugar after debreeding and cleaning with the chlorhexideen is a good idea.

I would also remove the ear flap. Vicki


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## AnnaS (Nov 29, 2003)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> The whole idea of oral antibiotics in a goat, 4 aspirin and some of the rest of it is why the meds don't work, it can't, oraly antibiotics in a ruminant can only profilactically keep problems at bay once treated...and 4 aspirin is a dosage for an infant goatling every 4 hours, why we don't use aspirin in goats...13 normal aspirin per 100 pounds of goat! You'll ruin the rumen before the aspirin could even work.
> 
> Vet treatment hasn't worked because it's highly unlikely enough of any of the meds were given, any 300,000 unit penicillin given at 3cc per 50 pounds every 12 hours would have healed this up by now.
> 
> ...


Vicki, since the aspirin/antibiotics/iodine protocol was from my post, not the OP's, I will address the problems you see. The vet is a dairy vet with 30+ years experience, not a kitty doctor.

The aspirin dosage was four times a day, not four aspirins daily. I did not specify the dosage. Since Lizzieag has a medical background, I used some shorthand terms. BTW, aspirin is used frequently in dairy cattle. It is digested in the retriculum (according to the AVMA) not the rumen and thus able to maintain theraputic levels. 

The goat was also getting injectable penicillin. That would be the SQ pen. As listed in my post. In humans, the fatality rate is 25%- 40% (that's a 1989 figure tho) I think we can assume a more aggressive protocol in humans- including IV/SQ antibiotics- than in livestock. So it is quite possible that even the most correct & aggressive treatment would not have "healed this up by now".

Dilute iodine does not prevent necrosis. Debridement deprives anaerobic bacteria of the "food" of dead tissue, removes encapsulated & active bacteria that produce the tissue killing toxins, and leaves only live, oxygenated tissue. Irrigation keeps the tissues moist- remember, these are skinless areas- and prevents bandage adhesion and secondary infections. Either 1% providone iodine or chlorhexidine can be used. The iodine solution is more effective in preventing secondary infection, especially by gram- bacteria, but the chlorhexidine is more effective when debridement is partial or nonexistent or when continual contamination of the wound is expected. 

And as a former vet tech, I am familiar with the difference between dry, dead skin and the crepination that is only caused by clostridial infections. Crepination is unmistakable and I have dealt with cases in the past that were lab culture proved to be clostridium ssp. The smell is also distinctive-kind of hard to describe as a differential sign, though. 

Vicki, we totally respect your experience and ability, but it does sometimes happen that there can be someone else who also has something useful to say.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Vicki, we totally respect your experience and ability, but it does sometimes happen that there can be someone else who also has something useful to say.
............................................

I answered her question with what I would do. You did the same, what is the point of this sentence? She can take the useful info out of your post and out of others posts...correct? I was pointing out why the vets conventional treatment DIDN'T work quickly on the animal in your post (you said it didn't work), wrong meds given incorrectly, which is typical of cattle vets (I have one myself). And that your honey idea is not new, packing wounds etc...with sugar is older than me. Sorry but iodine has no place in the treatment of goats, other than for navels. And of course goats aren't cattle, it's common knowledge that oral aspirin does nothing but destroy the rumen in the amounts it needs to work on a goat. Vicki


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## Lizzieag (Jul 9, 2007)

I went and saw the goat today. The ear was completely severed from the side of the head and was only attached by a thin layer of fat and and skin at the very top. Three large tendons and 2 blood vessels were clearly severed. Being a Nubian ear, it was pretty big and heavy, and thus had "slid" down the side of his head about 3 inches. We quickly made the decision to remove the ear. There was no blood supply and that ear was cool to the touch. When we applied pressure, the skin sorta pealed away. So no hope of saving that. 

We cut about 1/2 inch behind the dead and rotting tissue, into the healthy tissue. We got a good bleed and allowed it to bleed for a short period of time to "flush" out the area. We then lightly cauterized the open blood vessel to stop the bleeding and seal bacteria out. 

The area was then thoughly scrubbed with an herbal mix that contained garlic, GSE, a small amount of iodine, and a tiny amount of peroxide, in boiled water. The skin about 1 inch all around the wound, peeled away and we irrigated several lacerations and removed the "borders" of the wounds. Now all that is left is clear, healthy looking tissue.

I then applied a solid layer of honey and covered that with a wet dressing that was soaked in my herbal mix. Followed by a dry dressing and vetrap.

We gave him a good does of PCN and Vitamin B. Some warm water with molasses and put him to bed with fresh hay.

Starting in the morning he will be getting garlic twice a day, yogurt twice a day, and aspirin. We aren't giving the aspirin for pain relief, but more to keep his blood thin so that he gets lots of blood flow to the area. He is also getting his dressing changed and the area scrubbed twice a day. We are applying a little bit of heat to increase the blood supply as that is highly compromised.

I will keep you posted, as he heals. This guy is amazingly strong and patient. I think he really has a good chance if he survives the next 24 hours.


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## AnnaS (Nov 29, 2003)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> I answered her question with what I would do.


You stated what you would do, interspersed with comments on my vet's treatment that made it look like you had not read the entire post, or had not understood some of the terms. 



Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> I was pointing out why the vets conventional treatment DIDN'T work quickly on the animal in your post (you said it didn't work), wrong meds given incorrectly, which is typical of cattle vets (I have one myself).


The conventional treatment didn't work- and as I pointed out in my second post, gas gangrene has a 25%-40% fataility rate in humans. The failure of the vet's treatment does not mean his treatment was wrong or incompetent. 



Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> Sorry but iodine has no place in the treatment of goats, other than for navels. And of course goats aren't cattle, it's common knowledge that oral aspirin does nothing but destroy the rumen in the amounts it needs to work on a goat. Vicki


You are thinking of strong iodine used for navels. I am talking about povidone iodine (aka 2%, aka Betadine) which is used as a teat dip in many dairies (including mine) and as a skin sanitizer, wound wash and ringworm treatment in both vet & human hospitals. 

There are many drugs that goats metabolize more quickly than cattle and thus require a proportionally larger dose. The salicylates are not one of these drugs and in the case of aspirin, a goat can be dosed effectively as a small cow. Link to study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/e...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Vets have the benefit of continuing education. There are new, useful goat medicine studies being published all the time in vet journals, but this information isn't often passed on to us goat owners.


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## Lizzieag (Jul 9, 2007)

Of course this is my post and no has even commented on my surgery!


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## Cheribelle (Jul 23, 2007)

Lizzie, I am proud of what you have done so far! Good luck with this. Another thing I use with huge faith in it, is Watkin's Salve. It is amazing stuff for pulling the poisons out of wounds.


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## armeda (Aug 17, 2006)

I am learning a lot reading this thread. I have no experience in this area but will be helpful if I ever do. Good luck with the little guy. It sounds like you did a good job of doctoring him.

Armeda


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

It sounds like he's getting good care. I hope you keep us updated.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

I think you did exactly. Good luck with the healing process.

Lots of advice and wisdom sure makes the treatments more informed.


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## QueenB04 (Feb 9, 2005)

Lizzieag> I think you may have been talking about me and out goat we got this summer after being severely attacked by dogs, and left to die. I sent you a PM with my thread, and will be glad to help further. You did the right thing by removing the ear. You will be very surprised at how little it will take for the ear to heal once the infection is cleared. I do not recomend honey on animals as it attracts more animals, but I will not dispute it's healing properties. I managed both of Jaun's ears as open wounds. I would not have covered the leg wound except there was too mcuh debri penetrating the wound. We didn't have to bandage it long, about a week before it was good enough to let go open. Juan ended up eating the bandages anyways. Keep up with the compresses, daily, this will also be one of the biggest ali's you have. Best of luck.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Update?


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## Lizzieag (Jul 9, 2007)

So far so good! Martin is still getting his twice daily bandage changes. The hardest thing has been getting him to hold still for the whole operation. The last two days there has been some slight discharge from the wound, but no odor. I think some discharge is normal considering how badly infected the wound was. The honey seems to be "pulling" the infection to the surface. It is still getting gentle scrubbing at each change, if needed to remove any scabbing or drainage.

I haven't seen it, but will do a "home visit" next week sometime.

He is eating well and now has a couple of does to romance. The owner had two does that didn't get bred before this whole thing and I saw no reason not to let him have them for company. (his companion was killed by the dog) I don't see that it will hurt anything and it gives him something to live for.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

That's good news.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Good work! Comfrey is also very useful, although at this time of year, you would have to use the root and not the leaf, unless you can get dried leaf or root powder at a health food store. Please keep us updated on his progress.


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## newgoatowner2 (Jul 14, 2015)

Lizzie

Thank you so much for this post. My goats almost got hauled off last night by a dog and got left with some wounds and I'm new to the whole thing. So it was awesome to see how you dealt with it. Since having things misdiagnosed and medications not work the entire time that I have owned pets and taken them to the vet, I have come to the conclusion that sometimes answers are simpler than they are made out to be. I know that this is an old post, but I would just love to say thank you and you did a great job and I appreciate your wisdom. It's helping others!!


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

AnnaS said:


> I had a successful treatment of infected (clostridia) bite wounds in a goat, so I'll share. We started with conventional treatment which was not effective, and switched to organic, which was effective.
> 
> The goat was bitten by a coyote in the neck, hind quarters and abdomen. The abdominal bite penetrated several muscle layers but did not enter the abdominal cavity.
> 
> ...


I'll second that. Raw honey is amazing at pulling toxins and healing wounds. I have used it on necrotic spider bites with great success.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

We use a lot of turmeric for wound and infections and neem oil for healing. Just thought I'd toss it out there in the mix. Lots of great posts here. I like the info in this thread.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> *Lizzie*
> 
> Thank you so much for this post.


Lizzie started the thread in 2007, and hasn't logged on since 2008


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Hey newgoatowner2,

Welcome to HT. Glad an older thread helped you out. There's lots of good stuff here to read through.

Hope it helped you sort out your trouble.

It was cool to see this one pop up on the list of new posts on threads after you revived it.


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## onebizebee (May 12, 2011)

This might be a zombie thread but it does hold valuable information. I am also a honey user to heal wounds. Our little Pip was born and unfortunately her mom stepped on her ear and nearly tore it off with in minutes of being born. Did all of the conventional things to no avail. Infection set in then gangrene. Vet wanted to remove ear. I disagreed. she still had good blood flow to the tip of the ear. I went ahead and cleaned the heck out of that wound then packed it fully of manuka honey. I left it on for 24 hours then irrigated with saline solution repacked with honey. Every 24 hours we did this for about 6 days. It oozed and wept the entire time and stunk so bad the first two days. Then the third day no more stink. Nice new pink tissue started to appear. It cleared and healed wonderfully. Her ear is just bent down instead of sticking up. She is 4 now and happy healthy little pet. I now treat all wounds with honey. Works wonders.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

It will also draw out bee and wasp venom. Good thing to have on hand if you get stung.


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