# Does this confuse you?



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

On Tuesday, the father of a biological girl who believes she is a boy turned himself into a Canadian court and was subsequently taken to jail after the Attorney General of British Columbia issued an arrest warrant for contempt after the father had insisted on referring to his daughter as his “daughter” and used the pronouns “she” and “her.”


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> On Tuesday, the father of a biological girl who believes she is a boy turned himself into a Canadian court and was subsequently taken to jail after the Attorney General of British Columbia issued an arrest warrant for contempt after the father had insisted on referring to his daughter as his “daughter” and used the pronouns “she” and “her.”


No. Not a bit. 
Canadians have all the rights that the Crown grants them, and none more.

The Crown hasn’t seen fit to trust them with the freedom of speech.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Maybe getting it right about what he was arrested for is important before discussing facts.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Robert Hoogland, from Surrey, British Columbia, has a 14-year-old daughter. In February 2019, the Supreme Court of British Columbia, Canada ordered that the girl receive testosterone injections without obtaining parental consent. “The court also declared that if either of her parents referred to her using female pronouns or addressed her by her birth name, they would be considered guilty of family violence.









Father Arrested, Jailed For Contempt After Referring To His Daughter As ‘She,’ Voicing Dissent In Interviews | The Daily Wire







www.dailywire.com


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

Seems that since the father had a daughter, and not a son, that he should support that daughter, and NOT the son he DID not have. Shouldn't be supporting a child you had no part in.

Mon


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"Justice Michael Tammen said the father, known as C.D., has continually breached court orders banning him from revealing the identities of his child, his former wife, and medical professionals engaged in his child’s transgender treatment."









B.C. father arrested for repeatedly speaking out about his teen's transgender treatment to stay behind bars


'C.D.'s detention is necessary to maintain public confidence in the administration of justice,' Justice Michael Tammen said




nationalpost.com





Looking past one story is important.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

He continually violated the privacy rights of the child. That is what he was arrested for.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> He continually violated the privacy rights of the child. That is what he was arrested for.


Who is the legal guardian?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> Who is the legal guardian?


Makes no difference. There was a court order that he breached several times breaching the child and others privacy.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Makes no difference.


Spoken like a good German


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> "Justice Michael Tammen said the father, known as C.D., has continually breached court orders banning him from revealing the identities of his child, his former wife, and medical professionals engaged in his child’s transgender treatment."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Also from your story:



> He was also ordered to refer to his child by A.B.’s preferred gender pronouns and name.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Also from your story:


True, but not the reason he was arrested and facts do matter.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Makes no difference. There was a court order that he breached several times breaching the child and others privacy.


Really?? It should matter...a lot! So, according to you and this exceptionally useless court, parents don't matter. Whats wrong with that picture?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> Really?? It should matter...a lot! So, according to you and this exceptionally useless court, parents don't matter. Whats wrong with that picture?


Parents rights don't automatically supercede a child's rights in all things. This matter was previously litigated in a court of law and the child won the case. 

The child was living as the gender he ident as for two years before the father went to court. In fact he even legally changed his name a year before the father went to court. Does not sound like the father was very involved in his own child's life.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

There is no judge jury or internet wizard that will ever dictate how I will refer to my children. Ever.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

painterswife said:


> Parents rights don't automatically supercede a child's rights in all things. This matter was previously litigated in a court of law and the child won the case.
> 
> The child was living as the gender he ident as for two years before the father went to court. In fact he even legally changed his name a year before the father went to court. Does not sound like the father was very involved in his own child's life.


If the father wasn't very involved, then why would it even matter what pronoun he referred to the child as?
This sets a dangerous precedent of parents simply disowning their confused children.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> There is no judge jury or internet wizard that will ever dictate how I will refer to my children. Ever.





RJ2019 said:


> If the father wasn't very involved, then why would it even matter what pronoun he referred to the child as?
> This sets a dangerous precedent of parents simply disowning their confused children.


The damage he was doing to the child is the problem. He was doing this in public interviews and breaching the childs privacy after refusing to even participate in counciling sessions with the child. The court case makes in clear that the child tried to have a relationship with the father but the father did not try.

You may believe a parent has every right to treat a child the way they want but no they don't.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> No. Not a bit.
> Canadians have all the rights that the Crown grants them, and none more.
> 
> The Crown hasn’t seen fit to trust them with the freedom of speech.


seems like BC is particularly nutty on the trans issue.
This psycho finally lost but is still free and a predator.








Canada’s Ball-Waxing Horror Show Is Peak Transgender Activism | National Review


A Canadian man is attempting to legally coerce women to wax his scrotum.




www.nationalreview.com


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)




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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Pfffft...The old "Wax my scrotum" pickup line. It never was very much, but if you found a willing partner, you were in for a damned fine scrotum waxing....


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

I was born in Canada and truly I don't recognize the absolute NUTHOUSE this coutry has become. So stuff like this only reinforces what I've observed over the last 20 years or so in this country.


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

Absurdity. And coming to America, I'm afraid.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

georger said:


> I was born in Canada and truly I don't recognize the absolute NUTHOUSE this country has become. So stuff like this only reinforces what I've observed over the last 20 years or so in this country.


It may be our fault. Our SJWs are aggressive, and relentless. I think it crossed the border, and maybe across the world


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

HDRider said:


> It may be our fault. Our SJWs are aggressive, and relentless. I think it crossed the border, and maybe across the world


I think this stuff is actually worse in Canada and the UK than it is here.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lisa in WA said:


> I think this stuff is actually worse in Canada and the UK than it is here.


NO WAY!

We invented it, perfected it, and exported it.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

HDRider said:


> NO WAY!
> 
> We invented it, perfected it, and exported it.


Im Sorry. I know it’s disappointing.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> No. Not a bit.
> Canadians have all the rights that the Crown grants them, and none more.
> 
> The Crown hasn’t seen fit to trust them with the freedom of speech.


What he said.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Parents rights don't automatically supercede a child's rights in all things. This matter was previously litigated in a court of law and the child won the case.
> 
> The child was living as the gender he ident as for two years before the father went to court. In fact he even legally changed his name a year before the father went to court. Does not sound like the father was very involved in his own child's life.


If I had a child that acted out fantasies regarding their gender, they wouldn't have to worry about what I called them. They would be out of the house, off the property, and never spoken to again.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> If I had a child that acted out fantasies regarding their gender, they wouldn't have to worry about what I called them. They would be out of the house, off the property, and never spoken to again.


do you have any kids?


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

painterswife said:


> He continually violated the privacy rights of the child. That is what he was arrested for.


 “The court also declared that if either of her parents referred to her using female pronouns or addressed her by her birth name, they would be considered guilty of family violence."

Sounds to me like he was arrested for 'violence'.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Lisa in WA said:
> 
> 
> > I think this stuff is actually worse in Canada and the UK than it is here.
> ...


You’re both right. We did invent and perfect it, to the extent it could be perfected in our Republic, and then exported it. But, because the Queen’s other imperial subjects never had the guts to bloody her royal nose and send her pampered behind packing, like the Americans did, what remains of her dominion is prime ground for ratcheting the insanity up another notch or twelve.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Lisa in WA said:


> do you have any kids?


No I don't, and that wasn't an accident. When they are little they are noisy and they smell bad. When they are grown they are more trouble than they are worth. I have friends who lost everything they had because of something their kids did. You couldn't run fast enough to give me one.

I grew up with five brothers and three sisters. I was changing diapers and heating bottles of milk when I was five years old. I saw my parents struggle their entire life because of kids. I swore that it wouldn't happen to me.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> seems like BC is particularly nutty on the trans issue.
> This psycho finally lost but is still free and a predator.
> 
> 
> ...


At first glance, I thought you were posting a Babylon Bee article, then the suspension of disbelief set in. By the time I finished it, I started looking for other pieces by this author. Her writing is brilliant, and I suspect it is a rare talent that could actually change minds if people would read what she writes; This bit of perfectly articulated irony, for instance :


> Well, it’s 2019. The Handmaid’s Tale is still fiction. While Wax My Balls, B**** is a real-life horror show.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> No I don't, and that wasn't an accident. When they are little they are noisy and they smell bad. When they are grown they are more trouble than they are worth. I have friends who lost everything they had because of something their kids did. You couldn't run fast enough to give me one.
> 
> I grew up with five brothers and three sisters. I was changing diapers and heating bottles of milk when I was five years old. I saw my parents struggle their entire life because of kids. I swore that it wouldn't happen to me.


i have two daughters and there is very little they could do that would stop me from loving them. I might not agree with a lot of the trans thing but I’d never send my child away or disown them because of it.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Lisa in WA said:


> i have two daughters and there is very little they could do to stop me from loving them. I might not agree with a lot of the trans thing but I’d never send my child away because of it.


I was not suggesting that anyone else should act as I would. Your house your rules.


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## 67drake (May 6, 2020)

One of my daughters is very liberal, I still love her though.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Not everyone accepts their children for who they are. My son once had a meeting with a lovely young lady. She was sweet, he hoped it would be something more. But the young lady finally admitted to her mother that she wasn't interested in men. Her mother about blew a gasket.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

HDRider said:


> Robert Hoogland, from Surrey, British Columbia, has a 14-year-old daughter. In February 2019, the Supreme Court of British Columbia, Canada ordered that the girl receive testosterone injections without obtaining parental consent. “The court also declared that if either of her parents referred to her using female pronouns or addressed her by her birth name, they would be considered guilty of family violence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

muleskinner2 said:


> If I had a child that acted out fantasies regarding their gender, they wouldn't have to worry about what I called them. They would be out of the house, off the property, and never spoken to again.


I'm thinking that way as well. I figure if your old enough to make a life and body changing decision you need to be elsewhere. I really have a problem with anyone telling me I have to go along with what my under age child wants. Guess id sit in jail a long long time.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Don't minors have to get parental permission before getting tattoos or piercings? Surely they aren't considered to be old enough for consensual intercourse! They aren't old enough to vote. They are not allowed to buy alcohol or cigarettes. They aren't even allowed to go hunting without an adult. 

Yet the courts have ordered abortions and sex change treatments for these same age children. Am I the only one who sees something wrong with that picture.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I sound like I am contradicting myself. I believe an adult has the right to pretend to be what they want as long as they don't hurt anyone. But children are under subjection of those who are legally responsible for their well-being. Unless the legally responsible custodian of said child is causing harm to said child, the child has very few rights. Children who want the right to chose to change their bodies should get emancipated, get a job and take care of themselves.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> I sound like I am contradicting myself. I believe an adult has the right to pretend to be what they want as long as they don't hurt anyone. But children are under subjection of those who are legally responsible for their well-being. Unless the legally responsible custodian of said child is causing harm to said child, the child has very few rights. Children who want the right to chose to change their bodies should get emancipated, get a job and take care of themselves.


I agree.
l also don’t believe that WOMEN should be forced to give up their places of refuge like shelters to people with penises. And those penis people should not be permitted on women’s sports teams. 
beyond that, they can dress or call themselves anything that they like.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> Who is the legal guardian?


The State.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

HDRider said:


> Robert Hoogland, from Surrey, British Columbia, has a 14-year-old daughter. In February 2019, the Supreme Court of British Columbia, Canada ordered that the girl receive testosterone injections without obtaining parental consent. “The court also declared that if either of her parents referred to her using female pronouns or addressed her by her birth name, they would be considered guilty of family violence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That girl has Balls.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Lisa in WA said:


> I agree.
> l also don’t believe that WOMEN should be forced to give up their places of refuge like shelters to people with penises. And those penis people should not be permitted on women’s sports teams.
> beyond that, they can dress or call themselves anything that they like.


In some contries a girl can be stoned to death if she calls herself a male.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

This is really scary when you read it. The parents HAVE NO SAY in what their 14 yr old wants. Who's raising this child? The state/county? Or the parents? And, is the 14 year old paying for these treatments, are HER parents, or is Canada? Geez, a 14 yr old with mental issues (as stated in the article) gets to make decisions and the parents have to stand by and watch. Unbelievable! I'm glad my kids are raised and on their own. I'm scared for my grandchildren. Our world is crap


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

101pigs said:


> In some countries a girl can be stoned to death if she calls herself a male.


 Does Canada have a higher standard of living then the U.S.A. 
I lived there for two years on a contract job with my company. When there i was required to have their SS card and go to their Doctors and also got all my teeth fixed while there for little cost. The Drugs i take cost me $450 in the U.S. In Canada $25. Big question who has the higher standard of living. U.S.A. or Canada. My pay in Canada was double then what i made in the U.S.A.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

Yes, very confusing and scary the power the govts of the world want to take from people and impose upon the common folk.

paul


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

101pigs said:


> Does Canada have a higher standard of living then the U.S.A.
> I lived there for two years on a contract job with my company. When there i was required to have their SS card and go to their Doctors and also got all my teeth fixed while there for little cost. The Drugs i take cost me $450 in the U.S. In Canada $25. Big question who has the higher standard of living. U.S.A. or Canada. My pay in Canada was double then what i made in the U.S.A.


That's fabulous...for you! Maybe you should go back if it's so awesome. Nice of the taxpayers there to pay for your lack of maintenance on your teeth.
Me, i like our Constitution and being able to go to buy a gun or 20. I like being able to go to the beach and surf the same day that i went skiing. I like not paying the insane taxes up in the great white north. I have Canadian friends that bring trucks to the USA and they spend tens of thousands on material objects and resell them up there to avoid those tariffs. Odd, I have Canadian friends who come here for medical treatment. My doctor came from Canada because the wait times for his patients to see specialists was literally killing them. Ymmv...i guess.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> "Justice Michael Tammen said the father, known as C.D., has continually breached court orders banning him from revealing the identities of his child, his former wife, and medical professionals engaged in his child’s transgender treatment."
> 
> 
> 
> ...





painterswife said:


> He continually violated the privacy rights of the child. That is what he was arrested for.


Telling the parent of a minor under age child that they must address their own child in such a manner is incredible. Regardless of public or private situations. Such government overreach is incredible, for someone to agree with it or support it is just downright scary.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

JeffreyD said:


> That's fabulous...for you! Maybe you should go back if it's so awesome. Nice of the taxpayers there to pay for your lack of maintenance on your teeth.
> Me, i like our Constitution and being able to go to buy a gun or 20. I like being able to go to the beach and surf the same day that i went skiing. I like not paying the insane taxes up in the great white north. I have Canadian friends that bring trucks to the USA and they spend tens of thousands on material objects and resell them up there to avoid those tariffs. Odd, I have Canadian friends who come here for medical treatment. My doctor came from Canada because the wait times for his patients to see specialists was literally killing them. Ymmv...i guess.


Most of my family lives in US. I love my family and love to visit them. I do know quite a few folk that sold their homes in US and moved to the West coast of Canada. Waiting time in Canada for any serious condition is the same as in the US. Have you ever been or lived in Canada? I have and i can tell you i have heard the same things you talk about Canada for years. Most is just BS. Standard of living in Canada is higher in Canada as far as i could see. I did not have any waiting time to see any Doctor in Canada while living there. Taxes comes out to be the same for most people in Canada. The very rich do pay more in Taxes there because there are no Loop holes in there tax law like there is in the U.S. for the very rich. As far as the crime rate double for most crimes in the U.S. Murders 4 times greater in U.S.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

101pigs said:


> Most of my family lives in US. I love my family and love to visit them. I do know quite a few folk that sold their homes in US and moved to the West coast of Canada. Waiting time in Canada for any serious condition is the same as in the US. Have you ever been or lived in Canada? I have and i can tell you i have heard the same things you talk about Canada for years. Most is just BS. Standard of living in Canada is higher in Canada as far as i could see. I did not have any waiting time to see any Doctor in Canada while living there. Taxes comes out to be the same for most people in Canada. The very rich do pay more in Taxes there because there are no Loop holes in there tax law like there is in the U.S. for the very rich. As far as the crime rate double for most crimes in the U.S. Murders 4 times greater in U.S.


Have you ever lived in Canada or visited Canada.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

101pigs said:


> Have you ever lived in Canada or visited Canada.


In the 50's and 19 60's when i was growing up the U.S. was number one in the world as far as living standards. At age 21 i had completed 4 years in the mililtary. with a college degree. Can kids do that today?


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Lisa in WA said:


> I agree.
> l also don’t believe that WOMEN should be forced to give up their places of refuge like shelters to people with penises. And those penis people should not be permitted on women’s sports teams.
> beyond that, they can dress or call themselves anything that they like.


The trouble is, you don't get to choose.

It's called a slippery slope.

In the world described in the OP, everyone wants/gets to interpret gender in their own way for their own purposes.

Biological men competing against biological women in sporting events is nothing. Having biological men follow your little girl into the women's bathroom is a bit more serious.

Society has not just peeked into Pandora's Box, they have torn the lid from it from it's hinges.

WARNING! LANGUAGE!


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

67drake said:


> One of my daughters is very liberal, I still love her though.


I have one of those too


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

hiddensprings said:


> This is really scary when you read it. The parents HAVE NO SAY in what their 14 yr old wants. Who's raising this child? The state/county? Or the parents? And, is the 14 year old paying for these treatments, are HER parents, or is Canada? Geez, a 14 yr old with mental issues (as stated in the article) gets to make decisions and the parents have to stand by and watch. Unbelievable! I'm glad my kids are raised and on their own. I'm scared for my grandchildren. Our world is crap





kinderfeld said:


> The State.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> You may believe a parent has every right to treat a child the way they want but no they don't.


You tend to shape and evolve your arguments as they fail, so I'll be very clear to avoid any misunderstanding. 
I have absolute authority over every child I raise in my own home. My rules of censorship, spirituality, morals, education, and whatever else I deem worthy I control. Not the government, nor the loons, nor the busy bodies that believe they know better.
It isn't that I believe anything about parent's rights. I know them.
You do you.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Danaus29 said:


> I sound like I am contradicting myself. I believe an adult has the right to pretend to be what they want as long as they don't hurt anyone. But children are under subjection of those who are legally responsible for their well-being. Unless the legally responsible custodian of said child is causing harm to said child, the child has very few rights. Children who want the right to chose to change their bodies should get emancipated, get a job and take care of themselves.


Agreed. Transgenderism is a fad, a damaging one, and it is being encouraged, for political points, by the media and our leaders.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Believing oneself to be something he or she is not used to be deemed a mental illness and treated as such. Now the delusion is protected from, of all people, the parents of the mental health sufferer. Government continues down the path of becoming the greatest enemy of the people.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

If a man is homeless and wandering the streets for years he likely is suffering from some form of mental illness. But if he believes he is a woman in today's society does that mean he is only a half nut?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

JeffreyD said:


> Who is the legal guardian?


The government apparently


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## RideBarefoot (Jun 29, 2008)

Childrens' "rights" according to how I was raised:

By honoring your father and mother, you have the right to food, clothing, shelter, education, guidance, and love.

It's a reciprocal deal.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

101pigs said:


> Most of my family lives in US. I love my family and love to visit them. I do know quite a few folk that sold their homes in US and moved to the West coast of Canada. Waiting time in Canada for any serious condition is the same as in the US. Have you ever been or lived in Canada? I have and i can tell you i have heard the same things you talk about Canada for years. Most is just BS. Standard of living in Canada is higher in Canada as far as i could see. I did not have any waiting time to see any Doctor in Canada while living there. Taxes comes out to be the same for most people in Canada. The very rich do pay more in Taxes there because there are no Loop holes in there tax law like there is in the U.S. for the very rich. As far as the crime rate double for most crimes in the U.S. Murders 4 times greater in U.S.


Yes, i have been to Canada, i have family there. My father was born there. I'm biased because my daughter died there do to lack of care and not being able to be seen by a specialist. What is the population of Canada to the US? That might explain the murder discrepancies. You really seem to love Canada, why don't you live there if it was such a great experience for you. Ill stick with my personal experiences and why my doctor moved here instead of practicing where he was born. I still like the freedom our Constitution gives us, maybe you don't. Didn't you fight for our Constitution? Yet it appears you love a foreign country more...??
Ymmv....


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

I gave a few moments thought to what I as a parent would have done when my sons were teens and decided they wanted to be addressed as female.
I'd probably
1. freak out internally
2. have long talks with child
3. seek help from different sources to sort things out, either my understanding or my child's perceptions of who they are.
4. address them as whatever they wanted to be called, seriously, I think that is the least of the issue.
5. Let them know I would not agree to an adolescent taking drugs to alter anything and they would have to wait until they were 18, but I could support them as best I could as a cherished member of my family.
Hopefully it would never come to court orders, that is ridiculous in my opinion, but the father could have protested the courts overreach without naming the child or his ex. He brought that upon himself.
Also, other stories note the child decided to begin this process after watching a movie in school about a trans boy in 6th grade. Speaking for my 6th grade selfs parents, they would have probably pulled me from school and raised more of a deal over the movie than anything else.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Sorry I’m old school on this one. Boys come with blue booties, girls have pink booties! With the exception of an extremely few poor souls with severe birth defects we come with very obvious genitalia that makes gender identification easy at a glance. For those who are easily confused.... too bad! Accept who you are and what you are and get on with life.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

hiddensprings said:


> This is really scary when you read it. The parents HAVE NO SAY in what their 14 yr old wants. Who's raising this child? The state/county? Or the parents? And, is the 14 year old paying for these treatments, are HER parents, or is Canada? Geez, a 14 yr old with mental issues (as stated in the article) gets to make decisions and the parents have to stand by and watch. Unbelievable! I'm glad my kids are raised and on their own. I'm scared for my grandchildren. Our world is crap


I didn't realize that the girl was 14 years old. Every day I discover another reason to be glad I never had any kids.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

GTX63 said:


> You tend to shape and evolve your arguments as they fail, so I'll be very clear to avoid any misunderstanding.
> I have absolute authority over every child I raise in my own home. My rules of censorship, spirituality, morals, education, and whatever else I deem worthy I control. Not the government, nor the loons, nor the busy bodies that believe they know better.
> It isn't that I believe anything about parent's rights. I know them.
> You do you.


Yep.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

The whole thing is based on a logical fallacy.

We’re told that our gender doesn’t define us, and it’s perfectly fine to be a feminine male or a masculine female. We’re told to shame anyone who sees it any other way.

Then, we’re told we have to celebrate and pay for anyone who fees the need to mutilate their genitalia because its shape doesn’t align with where they find themselves on the masculine-feminine spectrum.

It’s completely bonkers.


One day, there are going to be calls for those of us with our birth-crotches to pay reparations for everyone who mutilated their junk, because “oppressive societal norms” forced them to feel like they needed to do it to conform.

I used to take solace in the fact that such levels of dip****tery couldn’t possibly be reached until long after I’m gone. At the rate we’re going, though, this could be part of CNN’s “new normal” campaign later this year.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)




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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"Under provincial law, a mature minor can consent to medical treatment without parental consent.

The child started living as a male at 11. His name was changed legally at 12. He was under the care of doctors for counseling the entire time. At 15 he went to court to gain legal consent as a mature minor to control his own medical care and decisions.

The child followed the laws and took control of his own life. You may not like that, you may not agree with his choices but your opinon does not matter.

He tried to work through if with his father but the father continued to breach his privacy and berate him and belittle him. The father is in jail for his own actions.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> "Under provincial law, a mature minor can consent to medical treatment without parental consent.
> 
> The child started living as a male at 11. His name was changed legally at 12. He was under the care of doctors for counseling the entire time. At 15 he went to court to gain legal consent as a mature minor to control his own medical care and decisions.
> 
> ...


Mighty poor laws! He didn’t do any of the above.... she did!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Mighty poor councilors too! Where do they get these people?!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Evons hubby said:


> Mighty poor laws! He didn’t do any of the above.... she did!


You can say "she" all you want. You are not part of his life and your need to poke at someone in such a needless way is your character flaw not his. Kindness is an still easy thing even to people you look down on.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> "Under provincial law, a mature minor can consent to medical treatment without parental consent.
> 
> The child started living as a male at 11. His name was changed legally at 12. He was under the care of doctors for counseling the entire time. At 15 he went to court to gain legal consent as a mature minor to control his own medical care and decisions.
> 
> ...


(Fixed it for you...)

The Crown’s criers put out an all-media blast to convince our children that mutilating their bodies is no longer a bad thing, since it can be used to the advantage of The Crown’s Will. The Crown called her best barbers, witches and herbalists to court, and they (shockingly) all agreed.

One of The Crown’s peasant subjects had a baby girl who felt more at home in armor than an apron, so the Crown’s criers told her to mutilate herself. When the peasant got upset at this development in his daughter’s life, and dared speak out against The Hand that was The Crown’s work, The Crown had no choice but to punish him.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

You’re right, I’m not a part of her life, but changing her name won’t change her gender either. People really need to grow up, and accept the hand theyre dealt. This poor girl will be a mess as long as she lives, thanks to stupid councilors, stupid judges and stupid doctors!


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

painterswife said:


> You can say "she" all you want. You are not part of his life and your need to poke at someone in such a needless way is your character flaw not his. Kindness is an still easy thing even to people you look down on.


So, in your opinion, the best way to deal with a mental illness is to indulge the most destructive aspects of it? What if she was convinced that she was born to have only one leg, no hands, live as a wild animal in the woods away from society, etc.. We gonna give such a disturbed 11 year old that kind of freedom?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> So, in your opinion, the best way to deal with a mental illness is to indulge the most destructive aspects of it? What if she was convinced that she was born to have only one leg, no hands, live as a wild animal in the woods away from society, etc.. We gonna give such a disturbed 11 year old that kind of freedom?


No mental illness, just like if he was born with an extra ear and wanted it removed.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> No mental illness, just like if he was born with an extra ear and wanted it removed.


I call bs. This poor girl is obviously not with full faculties.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

painterswife said:


> No mental illness, just like if he was born with an extra ear and wanted it removed.


So what physical ailment did this child have? Being female? She was born with nothing "extra". She seems to have been born with exactly the anatomy her genetics called for.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> So, in your opinion, the best way to deal with a mental illness is to indulge the most destructive aspects of it? What if she was convinced that she was born to have only one leg, no hands, live as a wild animal in the woods away from society, etc.. We gonna give such a disturbed 11 year old that kind of freedom?


Transableism is already a “thing”.
I agree that in cases other than true physical intersexuality this is a form of mental illness.









People Are Becoming Disabled By Choice And Labeling Themselves 'Transabled'


Similar to transgender people, the transabled feel one or more limbs or functions of one's body does not belong to one's self.



life.gomcgill.com


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

painterswife said:


> "Under provincial law, a mature minor can consent to medical treatment without parental consent.
> 
> The child started living as a male at 11. His name was changed legally at 12. He was under the care of doctors for counseling the entire time. At 15 he went to court to gain legal consent as a mature minor to control his own medical care and decisions.
> 
> ...


Just because it is legal in that jurisdiction, I mean it is BC after all, doesn't mean it is right. Do you honestly believe a child of that age should have the legal right to make such decisions? That is absurd to me.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

It is absurd. It is a societal brain wash at the least and a mental deficiency at worst. No amount of woke lingo will change that.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

And @painterswife totally messed up the pronouns.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> "Under provincial law, a mature minor can consent to medical treatment without parental consent.
> 
> The child started living as a male at 11. His name was changed legally at 12. He was under the care of doctors for counseling the entire time. At 15 he went to court to gain legal consent as a mature minor to control his own medical care and decisions.
> 
> ...


This wouldn't even make for a bad movie, and yet it is real life.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

What a case study and career building opportunity for the so called counselors. Write a few papers on this and be set for life. Only cost is a life physically messed up, to go along with the metal issues. Makes me wonder who really has the child’s best interests at heart.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Lisa in WA said:


> Transableism is already a “thing”.


It isn't a thing. It is a delusion, and should not be encouraged by any government, or sane adults.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

muleskinner2 said:


> It isn't a thing. It is a delusion, and should not be encouraged by any government, or sane adults.


I wasn’t saying it wasn’t. 
it’s just bizarre.


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## PaLady (Oct 24, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Parents rights don't automatically supercede a child's rights in all things. This matter was previously litigated in a court of law and the child won the case.
> 
> The child was living as the gender he ident as for two years before the father went to court. In fact he even legally changed his name a year before the father went to court. Does not sound like the father was very involved in his own child's life.


This doesn't sound like a child. If the "child" changes "its" name then that "child" should be an adult living on "its" own. Therefore, the father of this "adult" shouldn't be charged with violating the privacy rights of a "child." When children reach an age that the government over rules the parent, (who is financially caring for the child), on any area of child-rearing, then the government should take over the support and housing of said child and become the "baby daddy" of that child.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

..


PaLady said:


> ...When children reach an age that the government over rules the parent, (who is financially caring for the child), on any area of child-rearing, then the government should take over the support and housing of said child and become the "baby daddy" of that child.


While I wholeheartedly agree with your point, I also think we need to take extreme caution with that line of thinking. There are many in government who would eagerly jump at the opportunity to “take over the support and housing of said child”, and, for that matter, all children.

The compromise in your rationale is that the parent would no longer be financially responsible for the child. Unfortunately, those same rulers who would love to take control of those children also have no issue taking and spending our money.

If given the chance, they would take responsibility for all of the children in this country, and then tax us for the full cost of raising the government’s children.

It’s a Brave New World.


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## PaLady (Oct 24, 2006)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> ..
> 
> While I wholeheartedly agree with your point, I also think we need to take extreme caution with that line of thinking. There are many in government who would eagerly jump at the opportunity to “take over the support and housing of said child”, and, for that matter, all children.
> 
> ...


I have zero doubt that this is the goal of the government. But no financial responsibility for the child basically makes them independent. When children have more rights, or the same rights, as parents in their upbringing, then the child should be emancipated as an adult. Most parents would continue to support their children because "once a parent, always a parent". However, in this case, no. If the child is ok with dad being arrested and facing charges because he used a pronoun that hurt the child's feelings...nope...time for that "child" to be on his own.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

PaLady said:


> I have zero doubt that this is the goal of the government. But no financial responsibility for the child basically makes them independent. When children have more rights, or the same rights, as parents in their upbringing, then the child should be emancipated as an adult. Most parents would continue to support their children because "once a parent, always a parent". However, in this case, no. If the child is ok with dad being arrested and facing charges because he used a pronoun that hurt the child's feelings...nope...time for that "child" to be on his own.


The man was not arrested for that and nowhere is stated that the child was okay with this. The premise for your opinion is flawed from the start.


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## PaLady (Oct 24, 2006)

painterswife said:


> The man was not arrested for that and nowhere is stated that the child was okay with this. The premise for your opinion is flawed from the start.


I said "IF"...apparently you missed that part in your eagerness to slam my "opinion". Opinions are just that...opinions. No opinion is flawed, as it isn't fact....nor did I suggest that it was fact.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

This is the second case in BC that I'm aware of that has granted minors the right to gender reassignment without parental consent. 

In both cases, it seems that there is irreparable damage between the teen and a parent. Since both parents are unable to speak publicly, it's impossible to know if the parents fully oppose the idea of gender reassignment or if they simply wanted surgery delayed. 

In either case, life is hard enough for gay or trans kids and in my opinion, it might have been wiser to put more time and effort into family counselling and creating a strong family support system for a trans kid than forcing parents into the role of the bad guy.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

PaLady said:


> I have zero doubt that this is the goal of the government. But no financial responsibility for the child basically makes them independent. When children have more rights, or the same rights, as parents in their upbringing, then the child should be emancipated as an adult. Most parents would continue to support their children because "once a parent, always a parent". However, in this case, no. If the child is ok with dad being arrested and facing charges because he used a pronoun that hurt the child's feelings...nope...time for that "child" to be on his own.


Our provinces have provisions to allow for teens, who are unable to live at home for various reasons to be granted welfare that it allows them to live independently and attend school. 

Each province does have the right to petition the courts to have parents contribute to the child's living expenses but it's seldom enforced because it would require the minor to testify.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Neither of the cases is having gender reassignment surgery at this time ( I believe) . Only breast augmentation or removal is allowed before 18. This is only about puberty blockers and some hormones. Gender reassignment surgery on genitals has to wait until after 18 or possibly earlier if they are an emancipated minor.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> The man was not arrested for that and nowhere is stated that the child was okay with this. The premise for your opinion is flawed from the start.


Actually, you don’t know that he wasn’t arrested for referring to his daughter by the pronouns other than the ones the judge ordered him to.

HD’s article said the father was arrested for referring to his daughter as “she/her”. Your article said he was arrested for talking about the situation publicly. All accounts seem to indicate that he did both.

Funny thing, though; the court order is public record (redacted scans below). The judge ordered the following (coincidentally, in this order):

1- The father could not try to dissuade his daughter from going through with the treatment, and he could not refer to her as a girl, or by her old name.

2- The father could not talk about the situation with anyone other than his lawyer.

3- The father could not share any court documents with anyone other than his lawyer.

The judge’s order authorized anyone with jurisdiction to arrest the father if he breached ANY of the three orders listed. According to the articles posted, the father broke at least the first two. He was then arrested.

The author of HD’s article chose to focus on his breach of the first order, probably because it was the marginally more outrageous one. The author of your article chose to focus on the breach of the second one, probably because it served to marginally reduce the outrage.

Either way, the father could have been arrested for doing either, he did both, and he was arrested. Therefore, he was arrested for referring to his daughter as a girl, AND for speaking publicly about the situation.

What is that you say?
Oh yeah.


painterswife said:


> facts do matter.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Father of trans B.C. teen gives U.S. outlet an interview despite court ban


The father had also been ordered to address their child using the proper pronouns and descriptors in private.




vancouversun.com





"
In February, B.C. Supreme Court Justice Michael Tammen ordered the father’s interviews to be removed from the internet and again told the father he was not to give interviews on the matter, regardless of how they would be broadcast.

“You’re simply not entitled to do that, sir. Do you understand that part of it?” the judge asked the father during a February court appearance.

Replied the dad: “I completely understand that part of it, yes.”

The judge reminded the dad of the bans on the names of the parties in the case and said he had violated the orders.

“You must not do that, sir, you are in breach of the court order,” said Tammen."

"However, in an article posted Feb. 21, 2020, to the Federalist, the father again spoke on the case, referring to his son as his “daughter” and continuing to criticize the transition. "


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

‘Maybe things have gotten too far’: Father accused of repeatedly, publicly identifying transgender child jailed until trial


Citing publication bans designed to protect the teen’s privacy and psychological well-being, B.C. Supreme Court Justice Michael Tammen ruled Friday there was “virtual certainty” that if the father were to be released, the breaches would continue




www.thestar.com





"In this case, we are concerned with a publication ban designed to protect the privacy and dignity of a young and vulnerable person,” Tammen said.


“I am satisfied that (the father’s) detention is necessary to maintain public confidence in the administration of justice.”

"Since that decision, the Crown contends the father has repeatedly broadcast or published information that contravenes court orders prohibiting him from discussing aspects of the case that could identify key parties or the child’s medical status.

Last July, Crown counsel filed an application in B.C. Supreme Court seeking a finding that the father had committed criminal contempt of court — an offence that can result in five years imprisonment — citing the father’s appearance on a YouTube channel.

A trial is set to begin on April 12.

Earlier this month, Crown counsel took the additional step of seeking an arrest warrant for the father, citing ongoing breaches by the father, including a fundraising website he had created."


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Hiro said:


> Just because it is legal in that jurisdiction, I mean it is BC after all, doesn't mean it is right. Do you honestly believe a child of that age should have the legal right to make such decisions? That is absurd to me.


This is more life changing than marriage. Although legal in some places, we (most of us) discourage marriage at this age.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I personally believe this man has the right to fight in court to not have his child start the gender blockers and hormones. He did this and he lost.

He is now in jail because he publically did many interviews and posted clips about the child and the doctors involved. He admits he did this in more interviews. He breached the publication ban that the courts legally ruled on. He will have a criminal trial in April and will be in custody until that trial.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> I personally believe this man has the right to fight in court to not have his child start the gender blockers and hormones. He did this and he lost.
> 
> He is now in jail because he publically did many interviews and posted clips about the child and the doctors involved. He admits he did this in more interviews. He breached the publication ban that the courts legally ruled on. He will have a criminal trial in April and will be in custody until that trial.


The courts failed him, so The People are his last recourse.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

I tend not to get tore out of the frame about other people's lives. I feel more sympathy for people with an actual problem than I do toward people who have a problem about people with an actual problem.
Know what I mean, Vern?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Clem said:


> I tend not to get tore out of the frame about other people's lives. I feel more sympathy for people with an actual problem than I do toward people who have a problem about people with an actual problem.
> Know what I mean, Vern?


I'm not Vern but I have no idea what you are talking about.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

OK, I'll explain the obvious. If you have a broke arm, I have sympathy toward you in regard to your problem(a broke arm). If Joe has a problem with you because he thinks it's your own fault you broke your arm, I don't have any sympathy toward him, even though he has a problem(to quote..."Joe has a problem with you because...")


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Clem said:


> OK, I'll explain the obvious. If you have a broke arm, I have sympathy toward you in regard to your problem(a broke arm). If Joe has a problem with you because he thinks it's your own fault you broke your arm, I don't have any sympathy toward him, even though he has a problem(to quote..."Joe has a problem with you because...")


And what if Joe simply wants to make sure that no one does permanent damage to the broken arm, like say...chopping it off instead of a more conservative approach. Should Joe not speak out on children’s behalf in that case Because a random judge has told him not to? I do have sympathy with Joe and all children in that case.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

so, hypothesize a woman with a broke arm, and your mind goes to chopping it off? Dangerous mind.
If, you're saying do people in this forum have a right to wring their hands and otherwise go wild about the kid, sure they have that right. I just can't muster up much empathy for them and their positions.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the kid in question. As to the prevailing attitude that you're not allowed to mess with god's creation, not so much.
As to the kid and his/her dad, I raised 4 kids, all of whom were teenagers for a number of years, and I can tell you that telling a kid that he's wrong is the surest way I know for a kid to hold that position forever.

Not being a Canadian, I don't know about their laws, but being an American, I can guarantee you that right and wrong are totally irrelevant to anything other than conversation....ill-informed politicians and a commonsense-less judicial system will tell you what's legal, never mind that "right and wrong" stuff, and beat it into you real good, too.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Clem said:


> so, hypothesize a woman with a broke arm, and your mind goes to chopping it off? Dangerous mind.
> If, you're saying do people in this forum have a right to wring their hands and otherwise go wild about the kid, sure they have that right. I just can't muster up much empathy for them and their positions.
> 
> I have a great deal of sympathy for the kid in question. As to the prevailing attitude that you're not allowed to mess with god's creation, not so much.
> ...


Then I don’t think you’re getting it. 
Maybe someone else can explain how permanently altering a minors body when he isn’t old enough to give adult consent can cause a real problem for him later.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

That would be part of the "right and wrong are totally irrelevant to anything other than conversation....ill-informed politicians and a commonsense-less judicial system will tell you what's legal, never mind that "right and wrong" stuff" I mentioned.
Quite possibly, if not for the above, parents might still be able to somewhat control their children's actions. 
And the kid having had enough conflict within him/her self to come to this point is why I said "I have a great deal of sympathy for the kid in question. "


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

No one is permanently altering the body of a minor. Puberty blockers are reversible.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

My friend reassigned many years ago and she has a great deal of concern for young people looking for quick resolutions. 

She's certainly not a greater expert than the rest of us but she spent a great deal of time in counselling because she wanted to be sure that she was making the right decision and she wanted to continue throughout the transition process. 

When she opted to move forward, she spent a great deal of time researching and interviewing surgeons before she found one she felt was right for her. 

She has plenty of information to pass on to young people but few are interested because her message doesn't fit the narrative. 

She always advises young people to not rush into anything permanent, try to help your family understand and invite them to try counselling as well because you need as much support as you can get. She has advised anybody that has asked for her opinion to do way more research than you think you need and know that after assignment is complete, all your problems will not go away.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

painterswife said:


> No one is permanently altering the body of a minor. Puberty blockers are reversible.


Quick search.








New Hampshire teen one of the youngest to have gender reassignment surgery


A high school student in New Hampshire is being called a 'pioneer' after becoming one of the youngest people to undergo gender reassignment surgery. But her long and challenging journey began when she was just a child. At 17 years old, Emily Tressa finally feels fully herself. Last month, she...




cbs6albany.com













Puberty blockers ‘stunt bone growth of children’


Puberty blockers stunted the height and impaired the bone mass density of children wishing to change gender, researchers have found.The study followed 44 child




www.thetimes.co.uk


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

We are discussing Canada where it is not legal to have gender reassignment surgery until you are 18 or a legally emancipated minor in some cases.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Clem said:


> That would be part of the "right and wrong are totally irrelevant to anything other than conversation....ill-informed politicians and a commonsense-less judicial system will tell you what's legal, never mind that "right and wrong" stuff" I mentioned.
> Quite possibly, if not for the above, parents might still be able to somewhat control their children's actions.
> And the kid having had enough conflict within him/her self to come to this point is why I said "I have a great deal of sympathy for the kid in question. "


In this case there was nothing wrong with the girl, other than mental issues at most. Instead of addressing the real issue the powers that be opted to destroy her life.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

painterswife said:


> We are discussing Canada where it is not legal to have gender reassignment surgery until you are 18 or a legally emancipated minor in some cases.





GTX63 said:


> You tend to shape and evolve your arguments as they fail.....


GTX63 nailed it.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

“According to prospective studies, the majority of children diagnosed with gender dysphoria cease to desire to be the other sex by puberty, with most growing up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, with or without therapeutic intervention.”





Gender dysphoria in children - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




Original sources at bottom for those who don’t think wikipedia is a source.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

I think Dr. Mengele would find some of this creepy.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

kinderfeld said:


> I think Dr. Mengele would find some of this creepy.


As does any sane person!


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Clem said:


> I just can't muster up much empathy


No one is asking you to


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

However, a very few people apparently are implying that you should.

Not me.

The whole situation is none of our business.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> However, a very few people apparently are implying that you should.
> 
> Not me.
> 
> The whole situation is none of our business.


I disagree.

When courts, and society in general, sanction a 14 to be regendered against the parents wishes we should all care.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

In Canada? Why?


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

HDRider said:


> I disagree.
> 
> When courts, and society in general, sanction a 14 *to be regendered against the parents wishes* we should all care.


There. I fixed it for ya.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

What is the difference between empathy and caring?

Getting philosophical.🕉


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> In Canada? Why?


I care about genocide in China. I can't explain why.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

That correct plural possessive is parents'.

*Rule 2a.* *Regular nouns* are nouns that form their plurals by adding either the letter _s_ or _es_ (_guy, guys; letter, letters; actress, actresses;_ etc.). To show plural possession, simply put an apostrophe *after* the _s_.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> What is the difference between empathy and caring?
> 
> Getting philosophical.🕉


They are the same. I saw the question as to whom the empathy was directed. I ain't asking for it for it myself.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> We are discussing Canada where it is not legal to have gender reassignment surgery until you are 18 or a legally emancipated minor in some cases.


Regardless of what country we are disussing, I would suggest that if puberty blockers in the UK can have irreversible side effects, they may be the same in Canada. 

Potential long term side effects is something that should be discussed the courts allow a minor to make medical decisions.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

This concerns me more.
UN Warns 400,000 Yemeni Children May Starve To Death In 2021


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> This concerns me more.
> UN Warns 400,000 Yemeni Children May Starve To Death In 2021


Is it a contest?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> True, but not the reason he was arrested and facts do matter.





kinderfeld said:


> I think Dr. Mengele would find some of this creepy.


now that’s funny, right there. 
I don’t care who you are.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> We are discussing Canada where it is not legal to have gender reassignment surgery until you are 18 or a legally emancipated minor in some cases.


And Lisa showed you an article about a study that showed that the things they are doing to these kids, even short of genital mutilation, can have irreversible affects... even in Canada.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> Regardless of what country we are disussing, I would suggest that if puberty blockers in the UK can have irreversible side effects, they may be the same in Canada.
> 
> Potential long term side effects is something that should be discussed the courts allow a minor to make medical decisions.


That link was added after my post not before. I did not know about that post until now. That point is very relevant to how I responded.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> And Lisa showed you an article about a study that showed that the things they are doing to these kids, even short of genital mutilation, can have irreversible affects... even in Canada.


Which she added later.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Information is good. From the actual study Lisa's arti alluded to.

"Our findings that BMD increased over time in the lumbar spine but more slowly than in same age peers, resulting in a fall in z-score, are similar to others [4,14,39,40]. The fall in height-adjusted BMD z-score was consistent with but larger than the fall in height z-score. We found that birth-registered sex and pubertal status at baseline were not associated with later BMD."

The researchers don't expect that lower bone density to last.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Of course it isn’t a contest. Good grief. You gave an example of a thing that concerns you. I gave one. 

Chill, dude.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Of course it isn’t a contest. Good grief. You gave an example of a thing that concerns you. I gave one.
> 
> Chill, dude.


I'm chill Zen master


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

The human brain isn't fully developed until about twenty five years of age. I would argue, not even then, in some. To allow a child in puberty to do such an impulsive thing with irreversible consequences is daft. At least get the child psychological counseling first. IMO, they should wait until adulthood. Then, if after much time for careful consideration if she still wants an addadictomy performed, so be it.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

painterswife said:


> Information is good. From the actual study Lisa's arti alluded to.
> 
> "Our findings that BMD increased over time in the lumbar spine but more slowly than in same age peers, resulting in a fall in z-score, are similar to others [4,14,39,40]. The fall in height-adjusted BMD z-score was consistent with but larger than the fall in height z-score. We found that birth-registered sex and pubertal status at baseline were not associated with later BMD."
> 
> The researchers don't expect that lower bone density to last.


perhaps you could include a link to your study?
in the article it says, “The authors said that more research was needed to determine whether the impairment was permanent.”
whoops...found it.

ETA and from the study:
*Conclusions*
Overall patient experience of changes on GnRHa treatment was positive. We identified no changes in psychological function. Changes in BMD were consistent with suppression of growth. Larger and longer-term prospective studies using a range of designs are needed to more fully quantify the benefits and harms of pubertal suppression in GD.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Is anyone surprised that a study was required to convince anyone that pumping hormones into children is likely to be problematic?


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Hiro said:


> Is anyone surprised that a study was required to convince anyone that pumping hormones into children is likely to be problematic?


Not really.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

This endocrinologist has a lot to say on the subject.


https://mobile.twitter.com/will_malone


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lisa in WA said:


> endocrinologist


That is not what I thought it was.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Hiro said:


> Is anyone surprised that a study was required to convince anyone that pumping hormones into children is likely to be problematic?


Thinking you’re something that you’re not is a mental disorder.

Having artificial hormone levels is a physical disorder.

There are some people who so desperately want to celebrate a particular mental disorder that they’re willing to support intentionally inducing a physical disorder to corroborate the mental disorder.

Even in children.


It doesn’t pay to be surprised by anything.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> This concerns me more.
> UN Warns 400,000 Yemeni Children May Starve To Death In 2021


They can thank their mostly peaceful Muslim faith for that. Saudi Arabia and Yemen are at war, and it could all be stopped by one phone call.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> It doesn’t pay to be surprised by anything.


I work many days for free, so working for pay doesn't appeal to me until I have to.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Hiro said:


> I work many days for free, so working for pay doesn't appeal to me until I have to.


Doing what?


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

muleskinner2 said:


> They can thank their mostly peaceful Muslim faith for that. Saudi Arabia and Yemen are at war, and it could all be stopped by one phone call.


With Iran funding the harassment I doubt that phone call will be made. 

More relating to the subject of the thread, a person could probably bet some serious money that this problem with the parent / child and gender identity issue would never make it to court in that part of the world.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Redlands Okie said:


> With Iran funding the harassment I doubt that phone call will be made.
> 
> More relating to the subject of the thread, a person could probably bet some serious money that this problem with the parent / child and gender identity issue would never make it to court in that part of the world.


I suspect you are right.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> With Iran funding the harassment I doubt that phone call will be made.
> 
> More relating to the subject of the thread, a person could probably bet some serious money that this problem with the parent / child and gender identity issue would never make it to court in that part of the world.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Thinking you’re something that you’re not is a mental disorder.
> 
> Having artificial hormone levels is a physical disorder.
> 
> ...


There are many mental disorders. Autism, Asbergers, Bipolar, Borderline personality disorder just to name a few. These children usually have gender dysphoria. It like others can often be treated by pharmaceuticals and even surgery. The thing is they go through years of therapy before it gets to changes that are not reversible. They with the help of many doctors and loved ones get to make the choice for themselves.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Doing what?


That is classified. You know I could tell you......


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Redlands Okie said:


> With Iran funding the harassment I doubt that phone call will be made.
> 
> More relating to the subject of the thread, a person could probably bet some serious money that this problem with the parent / child and gender identity issue would never make it to court in that part of the world.


The phones with the oversized buttons, so they could be seen, are on backorder....


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> There are many mental disorders. Autism, Asbergers, Bipolar, Borderline personality disorder just to name a few. These children usually have gender dysphoria. It like others can often be treated by pharmaceuticals and even surgery. The thing is they go through years of therapy before it gets to changes that are not reversible. They with the help of many doctors and loved ones get to make the choice for themselves.


Most autistic kids think they are the opposite sex? I don’t think that’s correct.

Either way, the difference between the two situations you mention are that, in autistic and bi-polar kids, the doctors start with therapy and progress through to physical treatment, but they stop short of physical treatments that make the mental disorder worse.

In transsexuals, they provide therapy, and then apply physical treatments that actually cement the mental disorder. How does that make any sense?

Someone born a boy is a boy. It’s OK if they like things that girls usually prefer, including sexual partners. If you really want to help a kid who doesn’t fit within the gender norms, make it OK for them to be who they are. Empower them to accept that they don’t fit the norm, and that there’s nothing wrong with that.

Giving them drugs and/or surgery to change the form of their otherwise healthy developing body is lazy and evil.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Physical treatments beyond drugs are not given to transgender children until they are adults and able to completely consent on their own in Canada. The drugs have no worse long term side effects than many of the drugs given to children at a young age for other mental disorders. ADD for one. Bipolar another.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

painterswife said:


> The damage he was doing to the child is the problem. He was doing this in public interviews and breaching the childs privacy after refusing to even participate in counciling sessions with the child. The court case makes in clear that the child tried to have a relationship with the father but the father did not try.
> 
> You may believe a parent has every right to treat a child the way they want but no they don't.


How old is the child?
Is the mother one of those nut jobs who push transgender as normal and manipulate a child into believing things that are not true?
Maybe they should be looking at mom for child abuse?


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Physical treatments beyond drugs are not given to transgender children until they are adults and able to completely consent on their own in Canada. The drugs have no worse long term side effects than many of the drugs given to children at a young age for other mental disorders. ADD for one. Bipolar another.


It does cheat them out of a normal childhood.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Cornhusker said:


> How old is the child?
> Is the mother one of those nut jobs who push transgender as normal and manipulate a child into believing things that are not true?
> Maybe they should be looking at mom for child abuse?





> Munchausen syndrome by proxy (MSP) -- or Munchausen by proxy -- is a psychological disorder marked by attention-seeking behavior by a caregiver through those who are in their care.
> 
> MSP is a relatively rare behavioral disorder. It affects a primary caretaker, often the mother. The person with MSP gains attention by seeking medical help for exaggerated or made-up symptoms of a child in their care. As health care providers strive to identify what's causing the child's symptoms, the deliberate actions of the parent or caretaker can often make the symptoms worse.
> 
> ...


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> Physical treatments beyond drugs are not given to transgender children until they are adults and able to completely consent on their own in Canada. The drugs have no worse long term side effects than many of the drugs given to children at a young age for other mental disorders. ADD for one. Bipolar another.


We’ve seen evidence in this very thread that the drugs they give to kids transitioning to another gender do have long term affects on their physiology.

But, beside that point, the drugs we give to kids with other mental disorders are designed to mitigate the symptoms of the disorder. A risk/benefit analysis is done before administering the drugs, and the treatment is ceased or modified if the side effects outweigh the benefits.

With this one particular mental disorder, though, the drug treatments are designed to validate the disorder. The physical side effects are the desired result.

We’re modifying the physiology of children in order to support their delusions; delusions that the government and media make them celebrate in our schools.

Instead of helping kids feel good about whoever they happen to be, we’re reinforcing their feelings that there’s something wrong with their bodies and facilitating them modifying them to align with a societal norm that we also tell them isn’t real.

We’re fomenting a generation of mentally unstable adults by purposefully engineering that instability when they’re children.

It’s evil, and the adults who support this insanity are culpable.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> the adults who support this insanity are culpable


How and to whom?


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> We’ve seen evidence in this very thread that the drugs they give to kids transitioning to another gender do have long term affects on their physiology.
> 
> But, beside that point, the drugs we give to kids with other mental disorders are designed to mitigate the symptoms of the disorder. A risk/benefit analysis is done before administering the drugs, and the treatment is ceased or modified if the side effects outweigh the benefits.
> 
> ...


You say they are delusional, yet you have no medical basis to support this.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

This father is in jail because he shared in public forums and interviews and continued to share his child's medical documents and information after being ordered by the court to not do so. He gave out documents that have everything from his child's former legal name to date of birth as well as the legal name now.

He will now have to face court for that crime.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Gene variants provide insight into brain, body incongruence in transgender


Some of the first biological evidence of the incongruence transgender individuals experience, because their brain indicates they are one sex and their body another, may have been found in estrogen receptor pathways in the brain of 30 transgender individuals.



www.sciencedaily.com





"Some of the first biological evidence of the incongruence transgender individuals experience, because their brain indicates they are one sex and their body another, may have been found in estrogen receptor pathways in the brain of 30 transgender individuals.

"Twenty-one variants in 19 genes have been found in estrogen signaling pathways of the brain critical to establishing whether the brain is masculine or feminine," says Dr. J. Graham Theisen, obstetrician/gynecologist and National Institutes of Health Women's Reproductive Health Research Scholar at the Medical College of Georgia at Augusta University.
Basically -- and perhaps counterintuitively -- these genes are primarily involved in estrogen's critical sprinkling of the brain right before or after birth, which is essential to masculinization of the brain."


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

painterswife said:


> Physical treatments beyond drugs are not given to transgender children until they are adults and able to completely consent on their own in Canada. The drugs have no worse long term side effects than many of the drugs given to children at a young age for other mental disorders. ADD for one. Bipolar another.


Not true, apparently.
Luckily, this mom was able to get an injunction.
Canadian mother blocking trans teen's surgery fuels age debate


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Lisa in WA said:


> Not true, apparently.
> Luckily, this mom was able to get an injunction.
> Canadian mother blocking trans teen's surgery fuels age debate


That court injunction just proves the point. She is not 18 yet and her mother was able to use that to at the least delay and maybe stop the surgery because of her age.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

painterswife said:


> That court injunction just proves the point. She is not 18 yet and her mother was able to use that to at the least delay and maybe stop the surgery because of her age.


No. It proves that your statement in post #154 was flat wrong.
If you were correct, the mother would not have to have sought an injunction To stop her MINOR daughter from receiving an irreversible surgery.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Lisa in WA said:


> No. It proves that your statement in post #154 was flat wrong.
> If you were correct, the mother would not have to have sought an injunction To stop her MINOR daughter from receiving an irreversible surgery.


You don't have all the facts of the case so you can't prove that, can you. The child could have had permission from the other parent which makes it legal to have the surgery under 18 in Canada. If the other parent gave signed permission then the mother would have to go to court to prevent the surgery.
That is how the law works. 

The laws worked the way they are supposed to in Canada.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> laws worked the way they are supposed to in Canada


Most of us have learned that being legal does not make it right


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

This is what you said. 



painterswife said:


> Physical treatments beyond drugs are not given to transgender children until they are adults and able to completely consent on their own in Canada.


You were wrong.
You can try spinning it anyway you like to avoid embarrassment (and I’m sure you will) but you were just plain wrong. 
That minor girl was set to receive a double mastectomy before the mom filed an injunction. Something YOU said did not happen to minors In Canada.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Lisa in WA said:


> This is what you said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay, just for you. " You can't have surgery in Canada under 18 unless a parent signs a permission form" Are you happy now?

Her other parent did sign the form so she was able to legally have the surgery. She was only granted a temporary injunction and the minor was 17 1/2 years old at the time. She can legally have the surgery of her own accord after the middle of April.

I am going to amend this now that I have further information. This minor was living independently of both parents from the age of just over 17. The parents no longer were supporting her in any way. That is basically an emancipated minor.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

painterswife said:


> Okay, just for you. " You can't have surgery in Canada under 18 unless a parent signs a permission form" Are you happy now?
> 
> Her other parent did sign the form so she was able to legally have the surgery. She was only granted a temporary injunction and the minor was 17 1/2 years old at the time. She can legally have the surgery of her own accord after the middle of April.
> 
> I am going to amend this now that I have further information. This minor was living independently of both parents from the age of just over 17. Her parents no longer were supporting her in any way. That is basically an emancipated minor.


That is not a minor thing, Painterswife.
You still have a minor child getting an irreversible surgery.
Are you saying parents are infallible?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

painterswife said:


> Gene variants provide insight into brain, body incongruence in transgender
> 
> 
> Some of the first biological evidence of the incongruence transgender individuals experience, because their brain indicates they are one sex and their body another, may have been found in estrogen receptor pathways in the brain of 30 transgender individuals.
> ...


“May have been found”
”in 30 transgender individuals”.
Hardly a large sized study. 
One might wonder too, if these variants found might also indicate a tendency toward mental health problems.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I have not discussed the good or bad of this, just the legalities. I have pointed out where the facts presented are incorrect or incomplete.

I am not taking a position of the individual choices of the minors because I don't know them or have the medical expertise to know the situation. Just as I would not take a position on whether you might need to give a minor child of yours drugs or surgery.

The 17-year-old was no longer, in reality, a legal minor in Canada. If you have proof that transgender surgery is being provided in Canada to minors without parental okay then provide it.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

painterswife said:


> I have not discussed the good or bad of this, just the legalities. I have pointed out where the facts presented are incorrect or incomplete.
> 
> I am not taking a position of the individual choices of the minors because I don't know them or have the medical expertise to know the situation. Just as I would not take a position on whether you might need to give a minor child of yours drugs or surgery.
> 
> The 17-year-old was no longer, in reality, a legal minor in Canada. If you have proof that transgender surgery is being provided in Canada to minors without parental okay then provide it.


The age of majority in BC is, according to the article, 19. So yes, he/she was indeed and likely still is, a minor.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

19 in BC is the age when you have received all legal rights of an adult and are not a minor legally unless for some reason you are declared so in court.

It however is not true that you don't have other rights granted to you at a lower age. The right to have surgery without a parent's or guardian's consent is granted on your 18 birthday or when you are an emancipated minor.

So you might be sticking on the word minor but legal rights depend on age and not only that word.

Reading one article and believing you have the scope of things is not working out well for many posting on this thread.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

painterswife said:


> Reading one article and believing you have the scope of things is not working out well for many posting on this thread.


As your posts have repeatedly illustrated. 
As for the BC age of majority, sorry...but I’m going with what a reliable news source says rather than a Canadian ex-Pat living in the states who is biased to begin with And will likely say anything to “win” a squabble.
I‘ll let someone else argue with you if they like.
We all know you have no governor on your argue engine and can easily go on all day with this.
mwuh.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Lisa in WA said:


> As your posts have repeatedly illustrated.
> As for the BC age of majority, sorry...but I’m going with what a reliable news source says rather than a Canadian ex-Pat living in the states who is biased to begin with And will likely say anything to “win” a squabble.
> I‘ll let someone else argue with you if they like.
> We all know you have no governor on your argue engine and can easily go on all day with this.
> mwuh.


A personal attack. Are you trying to cancel this thread and get it moved to the dark room?


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> As your posts have repeatedly illustrated.
> As for the BC age of majority, sorry...but I’m going with what a reliable news source says rather than a Canadian ex-Pat living in the states who is biased to begin with And will likely say anything to “win” a squabble.
> I‘ll let someone else argue with you if they like.
> We all know you have no governor on your argue engine and can easily go on all day with this.
> mwuh.


Truth!!


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Okay, just for you. " You can't have surgery in Canada under 18 unless a parent signs a permission form" Are you happy now?
> 
> Her other parent did sign the form so she was able to legally have the surgery. She was only granted a temporary injunction and the minor was 17 1/2 years old at the time. She can legally have the surgery of her own accord after the middle of April.
> 
> I am going to amend this now that I have further information. This minor was living independently of both parents from the age of just over 17. The parents no longer were supporting her in any way. That is basically an emancipated minor.


The laws regarding emancipation you attribute to Canadian law is incorrect. The laws regarding emancipation falls under BC family law and each province has their own. 

Some provide for emancipation and others do not but your statement regarding surgery is incorrect as well but there is a difference between elective, essential and emergency surgery. No minor would ever be denied any urgent surgery until they are 18, even if a custodial parent were unavailable.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

This thread is about transgender surgery and I spoke only to that for the most part and the two cases being discussed are in BC so yes are further defined by that.

Do you know of instances where transgender surgery has been allowed in other provinces?

ttps://ccla.org/frequently-asked-questions-regarding-change-of-sex-designation-for-trans-persons/#:~:text=Under%20current%20law%3A%20No%20age,must%20have%20parental%2Fguardian%20permission.

"
*Can I apply if I am younger than 18 or 19?*

Sex reassignment surgery is generally not performed on those under the provincial age of majority, as all clinics in Canada that currently perform reassignment surgery conform to the recognized Standards of Care. These Standards, which are regarding health care for trans persons, forbid irreversible interventions (such as surgery) on patients before they reach the age of majority. As a result, if you are a minor in Canada, you generally cannot change your sex designation in provinces or territories where proof of surgery is required."


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> You tend to shape and evolve your arguments as they fail,...


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> This thread is about transgender surgery and I spoke only to that for the most part and the two cases being discussed are in BC so yes are further defined by that.
> 
> Do you know of instances where transgender surgery has been allowed in other provinces?
> 
> ...


You were touting BC family court law as Canadian law, which is absolutely incorrect and if one is going to state something as fact, it needs to be factually correct. 

Some provinces have absolutely no provision for emancipation and only allow for court approved transfer of guardianship so that emancipation you speak of is not the Canadian law success you claim. 
If you're using trying to shoot holes in my comment about surgery, you may have misread my comment. I spoke to three types of surgery and the only circumstances under which a minor may have the right to consent without a guardian available.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Neither of the cases is having gender reassignment surgery at this time ( I believe) . Only breast augmentation or removal is allowed before 18. This is only about puberty blockers and some hormones. Gender reassignment surgery on genitals has to wait until after 18 or possibly earlier if they are an emancipated minor.


What a pickle that would be. 

If he got pregnant then had reassignment surgery would that be a first I wonder?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Lisa in WA said:


> perhaps you could include a link to your study?
> in the article it says, “The authors said that more research was needed to determine whether the impairment was permanent.”
> whoops...found it.
> 
> ...


Another possible problem with puberty blockers besides bone growth and future fertility is that penile and scrotal growth is affected to the point that if the child DOES continue on to do “bottom” surgery at some point, there is a likelihood that there won’t be enough tissue there for vaginoplasty.








HORMONE BLOCKERS, TRANS YOUTH, & PERMANENT SIDE EFFECTS SUCH AS STERILITY & LOSS OF SEXUAL FUNCTION — Gender Health Query


Medical consequences of hormone blockers, cross-sex hormones, surgery, to gender dysphoric & trans youth




www.genderhq.org


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"Are puberty blockers permanent? No, puberty blockers are not permanent. If you decide to stop puberty blockers without starting cross sex hormones, your body will start going through the puberty of your sex at birth. You can stop the puberty blockers at any time, but we will work with you on how to do that."

"Bone health Blocking puberty can make your bones weaker (lower bone density). This may get better when you stop the puberty blockers or start cross-hormone therapy. While on puberty blockers, we recommend taking calcium, vitamin D and doing bone strength-building exercises like walking, jumping and weight lifting. We may check your bone health every 2 years while on blockers. Fertility Taking puberty blockers should not affect your ability to have a baby in the future (fertility). However, permanent damage to fertility is a concern for people who stay on puberty blockers and then take cross-sex hormones. We recommend talking about this with us to understand the potential impact on your fertility before starting any medicines."



https://www.seattlechildrens.org/pdf/PE2572.pdf


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

*"Are the changes permanent?*

Use of GnRH analogues doesn't cause permanent changes in an adolescent's body. Instead, it pauses puberty, providing time to determine if a child's gender identity is long lasting. It also gives children and their families time to think about or plan for the psychological, medical, developmental, social and legal issues ahead.

If an adolescent child stops taking GnRH analogues, puberty will resume."










Pubertal blockers for transgender and gender-diverse youth


Understand how pubertal blockers work to suppress puberty, including their benefits, side effects and long-term effects.




www.mayoclinic.org


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

https://www.chp.edu/-/media/chp/departments-and-services/adolescent-and-young-adult-medicine/documents/gender-and-sexual-development/puberty-blocking-medication-for-early-puberty.pdf?la=en



"The medication is not permanent. If injections are stopped, in about six months puberty will restart at the developmental stage they were at when we started hormone blockers. By taking these medications, the body will not be making the hormones of puberty, testosterone or estrogen. At this time, we are “putting on hold” the hormones of puberty and the changes that they would cause."


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

painterswife said:


> https://www.chp.edu/-/media/chp/departments-and-services/adolescent-and-young-adult-medicine/documents/gender-and-sexual-development/puberty-blocking-medication-for-early-puberty.pdf?la=en
> 
> 
> 
> "The medication is not permanent. If injections are stopped, in about six months puberty will restart at the developmental stage they were at when we started hormone blockers. By taking these medications, the body will not be making the hormones of puberty, testosterone or estrogen. At this time, we are “putting on hold” the hormones of puberty and the changes that they would cause."


Also from your source:
“The side effects and the safety of these medicines are not completely understood. There may be long- term risks that are not yet known.”


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Someone's goalposts seem to be in loose soil.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Someone's goalposts seem to be in loose soil.


The goalposts are “position-fluid”.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> The goalposts are “position-fluid”.


It is re-goaling


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I recall this as a child in a book my mother owned called "The Best Loved Poems of The American People. c 1936". I believe most copies were stacked and burned sometime last year during an enlightenment party in a left coast city near you.

*Doan't You Be What You Ain't*
by Edwin Milton Royle
D E SUNFLOWER ain't de daisy,
And de melon ain't de rose.
Why is dey all so crazy
To be sumpin' else dat grows?
Jes' stick to the place you's planted, and do de bes' you knows,
Be de sunflower or de daisy,
Be de melon or de rose.
De song thrush ain't de robin,
And de catbird ain't de jay.
Why is dey all a-throbbin' to outdo each other's lay?
Jes' sing de song God gave you, and let your heart be gay.
Be de song thrush or de robin,
Be de catbird or de jay.

Chorus:

Doan't ye be what you ain't,
Jes' you be what you is.
Ef a man is what he isn't,
Den he isn't what he is.
Ef you's jes' a little tadpole,
Doan't you try to be de frog.
Ef you's de tail doan't you try to wag de dog.
Jes' pass de plate ef you can't exhort and preach;
Ef you's jes' a little pebble,
Doan't ye try to be de beach.
Ef a man is what he isn't, den he isn't what he am,
And as sure as I'm a-talkin' he isn't worth a——
Doan't ye be what you ain't,
Jes' you be what you is.
Ef a man is what he isn't,
Den he isn't what he is;
And as sure as I'm a-talkin',
He's gwyne to git his.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> It is re-goaling


Can you really flag it, though?

When your position is an indefensible one that requires supporting modifying the bodies of children and adolescents who don’t feel comfortable in their own skin (imagine that), just because CNN told you that people on your side of the table have chosen to support that cause, one can’t afford to hold a stationary rationale.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> How and to whom?


You know Who.

Neither of us knows How.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Awesome poem


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Can you really flag it, though?


We can certainly call foul


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




----------



## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

I liked the poem.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

It's worth mentioning that there are some who simply don't go all the way to full reassignment and a certain number who end up detransitioning. 

There seems to be plenty of reasons prevent teens from rushing to transition but the dirty little secret is that not everybody finds their lives better after reassignment. 









Hormones, surgery, regret: I was a transgender woman for 8 years — time I can't get back


At first I was giddy for the fresh start. But hormones and sex change surgery couldn't solve the underlying issues driving my gender dysphoria.



www.usatoday.com










Detransition - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

This frightens me only because of the discussion within about sexual identity counselling for children as young as 3 years old.









Hundreds of youths who had gender reassignment surgery regret it


Campaigner Charlie Evans (pictured), 28, from Newcastle, was born female but identified as male for almost ten years before deciding to be known as a woman again.




www.dailymail.co.uk


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

My sister wanted to be a boy for years. Most of the reason was so she could pee behind the barn without dropping her drawers and splattering her shoes. She is still, very happily, female.

While some children may feel they were born the wrong gender, they should at least get through puberty before trying to change what they have. And they should have access to counseling to help them cope with reality instead of pushing them into a decision they may end up regretting.


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## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

I am a simple country girl and not at all confused about gender. Among goats and cows; because they are what I am familiar with; there are males and females but once in a while a kid or calf is born that the gender is not totally apparent. It happens rarely but can. Those animals are usually sterile and can't reproduce. Now with people all I know is I gave birth to one male son and three female daughters. If they grew up and decided they preferred to be the opposite sex that is their choice whether I like it or not when they are adults. However that does not change the fact I gave birth to a son and three daughters.

I think the problem is at what age are parents not in control of the children they gave birth too? If children have the right to make life altering decisions such as leaving home at fourteen or fifth-teen or changing their gender then why are parents legally responsible to financially support their offspring until they are eighteen or nineteen or finish school? It seems a person should not be allowed to make adult decisions until they are adults. Until adults and on their own supporting themselves they should be subject to their parents guidance. Sadly a lot of kids don't have parents to guide them or the parents are split and don't agree on how to raise the children. The kids then divide and conquer to get the parent who agrees with them to help them get what they want.

On many issues besides gender our society has the tail wagging the dog now days instead of the other way around. As for courts and judges in Canada a proverb comes to mind. " Agree with your adversary who is in your way unless you get yourself a blot". and " Live peaceably with all men as much as it is possible." If you don't agree with a judge's order and there is no legal way to disagree; the best thing is to keep quiet because you will never change someone's mind on some issues. One thing for sure no one can put you in jail for thinking what you think as long as you don't voice it out loud. We live in sad times and it isn't going to get better any time soon. Pick your battles carefully. Free speech is not free anymore.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Danaus29 said:


> My sister wanted to be a boy for years. Most of the reason was so she could pee behind the barn without dropping her drawers and splattering her shoes. She is still, very happily, female.
> 
> While some children may feel they were born the wrong gender, they should at least get through puberty before trying to change what they have. And they should have access to counseling to help them cope with reality instead of pushing them into a decision they may end up regretting.


I agree with you and when I see articles with someone is in the business of coaching children as young as 3 on sexual identity, I have some concerns.


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## DebbieJ (Oct 9, 2016)

lmrose said:


> I am a simple country girl and not at all confused about gender. Among goats and cows; because they are what I am familiar with; there are males and females but once in a while a kid or calf is born that the gender is not totally apparent. It happens rarely but can. Those animals are usually sterile and can't reproduce. Now with people all I know is I gave birth to one male son and three female daughters. If they grew up and decided they preferred to be the opposite sex that is their choice whether I like it or not when they are adults. However that does not change the fact I gave birth to a son and three daughters.
> 
> I think the problem is at what age are parents not in control of the children they gave birth too? If children have the right to make life altering decisions such as leaving home at fourteen or fifth-teen or changing their gender then why are parents legally responsible to financially support their offspring until they are eighteen or nineteen or finish school? It seems a person should not be allowed to make adult decisions until they are adults. Until adults and on their own supporting themselves they should be subject to their parents guidance. Sadly a lot of kids don't have parents to guide them or the parents are split and don't agree on how to raise the children. The kids then divide and conquer to get the parent who agrees with them to help them get what they want.
> 
> On many issues besides gender our society has the tail wagging the dog now days instead of the other way around. As for courts and judges in Canada a proverb comes to mind. " Agree with your adversary who is in your way unless you get yourself a blot". and " Live peaceably with all men as much as it is possible." If you don't agree with a judge's order and there is no legal way to disagree; the best thing is to keep quiet because you will never change someone's mind on some issues. One thing for sure no one can put you in jail for thinking what you think as long as you don't voice it out loud. We live in sad times and it isn't going to get better any time soon. Pick your battles carefully. Free speech is not free anymore.


I have to agree 100% with you. I can think what I want. I have a homosexual grand child and on that says they are bi-sexual. I still love them, jut not their lifestyle.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

wr said:


> I agree with you and when I see articles with someone is in the business of coaching children as young as 3 on sexual identity, I have some concerns.


"What do you do"?
"I'm a Gender Assignment Coach". Went to college for 12 years for it.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

HDRider said:


> On Tuesday, the father of a biological girl who believes she is a boy turned himself into a Canadian court and was subsequently taken to jail after the Attorney General of British Columbia issued an arrest warrant for contempt after the father had insisted on referring to his daughter as his “daughter” and used the pronouns “she” and “her.”


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## colourfastt (Nov 11, 2006)

I subjected myself—painfully—to this entire thread. What I discovered is that the vast majority of the posters have worldviews that calcified in the 1950s/1960s. 

This thread should have been a discussion about an individual who knowingly disregarded a court order; what it turned into is a "this is my belief/transgenderism is wrong" thread. If the thread is going to be couched in such terms, then a question must be asked of those posting: "How many posters know and/or have dated a trans person (MtF or FtM)?"

I grew up in a VERY rural county in Virginia in the 60/70s, but, fortunately, did not absorb the bigoted attitudes that were so casually displayed. Since graduating high school in '81 I've lived in Chicago (where I moved immediately after graduating), Orlando, Houston, New Orleans, and others. Unlike the vast majority of those with whom I attended school and never moved away, my attitudes broadened and I've experienced things that the rural populations never will—and this does include dating trans people, both MtF and FtM. 

Sadly, what struck me in reading most of the posts in this thread is that they reminded me of my very late, and very unlamented great-grandparents—you know, those people who had never been more than 100 miles from where they were born.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

colourfastt said:


> I subjected myself—painfully—to this entire thread. What I discovered is that the vast majority of the posters have worldviews that calcified in the 1950s/1960s.
> 
> This thread should have been a discussion about an individual who knowingly disregarded a court order; what it turned into is a "this is my belief/transgenderism is wrong" thread. If the thread is going to be couched in such terms, then a question must be asked of those posting: "How many posters know and/or have dated a trans person (MtF or FtM)?"
> 
> ...


Some assume much based on very limited information.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

colourfastt said:


> Sadly, what struck me in reading most of the posts in this thread is that they reminded me of my very late, and very unlamented great-grandparents—you know, those people who had never been more than 100 miles from where they were born.


Sounds like your truth is where you found it and it is yours to keep.
So, if someone else finds their own truth early, be it your ancestors or others, why should they look anywhere else?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

no really said:


> Some assume much based on very limited information.


I think it was mostly about him/her getting an opportunity to tell us all how enlightened, sophisticated and worldly he is compared to the rest of us benighted, backwater rubes.
I hope he didn’t break that arm of his while it was so vigorously patting himself on the back.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

colourfastt said:


> the bigoted attitudes that were so casually displayed


Having a belief system that defines right and wrong, and recognizing mental illness in your "enlightened" views is not bigoted.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

colourfastt said:


> I subjected myself—painfully—to this entire thread. What I discovered is that the vast majority of the posters have worldviews that calcified in the 1950s/1960s.
> 
> This thread should have been a discussion about an individual who knowingly disregarded a court order; what it turned into is a "this is my belief/transgenderism is wrong" thread. If the thread is going to be couched in such terms, then a question must be asked of those posting: "How many posters know and/or have dated a trans person (MtF or FtM)?"
> 
> ...


I have a trans relative, it cost a marriage, she appears to be happy with her choice.
Sisters and brothers accepting and supportive I guess.
My own kids acted like it was no biggie when told, times have changed, they themselves know more people with different lifestyles than I ever would.

I know for a fact the parents would have had "none of it" when this person was a young child or pre teen.
I still think it would be absolutely wrong,for example, to encourage a 5 year old boy to wear girly things just because he mentioned it and I'd question the motives of an adult that provided the clothing more than a small child's fleeting interest. Just my opinion.

As far as the mental illness goes, I wouldnt say my relative is mentally ill based on being Trans. Lots of people alter their appearance to be something they are not, but it doesn't make them mentally ill.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

colourfastt said:


> I subjected myself—painfully—to this entire thread. What I discovered is that the vast majority of the posters have worldviews that calcified in the 1950s/1960s.
> 
> This thread should have been a discussion about an individual who knowingly disregarded a court order; what it turned into is a "this is my belief/transgenderism is wrong" thread. If the thread is going to be couched in such terms, then a question must be asked of those posting: "How many posters know and/or have dated a trans person (MtF or FtM)?"
> 
> ...


Couple of questions, what attracted you to these trans folks? Had they gone through surgeries to complete their transitions and how old were they?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

colourfastt said:


> I subjected myself—painfully—to this entire thread. What I discovered is that the vast majority of the posters have worldviews that calcified in the 1950s/1960s.
> 
> This thread should have been a discussion about an individual who knowingly disregarded a court order; what it turned into is a "this is my belief/transgenderism is wrong" thread. If the thread is going to be couched in such terms, then a question must be asked of those posting: "How many posters know and/or have dated a trans person (MtF or FtM)?"
> 
> ...


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

colourfastt said:


> I subjected myself—painfully—to this entire thread. What I discovered is that the vast majority of the posters have worldviews that calcified in the 1950s/1960s.
> 
> This thread should have been a discussion about an individual who knowingly disregarded a court order; what it turned into is a "this is my belief/transgenderism is wrong" thread. If the thread is going to be couched in such terms, then a question must be asked of those posting: "How many posters know and/or have dated a trans person (MtF or FtM)?"
> 
> ...



How apropos that your handle is a take on this:

*Colorfast: Dyed in colors that will not fade or be washed out.*

Your bigoted condescension towards and contempt for those of us countrified rubes,


> who had(have) never been more than 100 miles from where they were born.


 is quite obvious and odiously palpable.

You revel in your faux cosmopolitanism by dropping the names of several metro areas of the contiguous lower 48 where you claim to have dwelt among the urban enlightened.

Oooooh, Ahhhhh, I am so impressed. 

I was born in Connecticut, and have lived in Arizona, Missouri and Vermont as well. I've had boots on the ground in all of the lower 48 and 8 Canadian provinces from Vancouver Island, BC all the way to Halifax, NS. I've been to Germany, France, Belgium and Luxembourg. Does that qualify me as a member of your elitist cosmopolitan group?

I have learned one thing in all my years of living.

If I had a dollar for all of the genders out there I would have exactly two dollars and a whole bunch of counterfeits.

Just 'cause I call myself Rumpelstiltskin don't mean that I can sh*t gold bricks. Comprende?.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I remember being trapped in a woman’s body once. But she finally undid the handcuffs and let me go!


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I remember being trapped in a woman’s body once. But she finally undid the handcuffs and let me go!


Wasn’t your daughter in-law, was it?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Wasn’t your daughter in-law, was it?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

colourfastt said:


> I subjected myself—painfully—to this entire thread. What I discovered is that the vast majority of the posters have worldviews that calcified in the 1950s/1960s.
> 
> This thread should have been a discussion about an individual who knowingly disregarded a court order; what it turned into is a "this is my belief/transgenderism is wrong" thread. If the thread is going to be couched in such terms, then a question must be asked of those posting: "How many posters know and/or have dated a trans person (MtF or FtM)?"
> 
> ...


I grew up in the sticks, with a cold water faucet, and a outhouse. I have lived and worked in seven different countries on three different continents. I have dined with witchdoctors, generals, ditch diggers, smugglers, killers, and saints. I have always tried to see the other persons view, and to do the right thing. I am not a sexual deviant or a pervert, so I have had no reason to date or even talk to a transgender entity. (Webster's defines an entity as a thing having no real existence.) I do not modify my opinion, actions, or beliefs to meet current social trends. Most importantly I will not be bullied or be talked down to, by some progressive social justice warrior who thinks that deviance and perversion is to be admired.

You have every right to your opinion, and belief system. You have no right to expect anyone else to go along with your personal delusions, or perversions. Have a nice day.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> I grew up in the sticks, with a cold water faucet, and a outhouse. I have lived and worked in seven different countries on three different continents. I have dined with witchdoctors, generals, ditch diggers, smugglers, killers, and saints. I have always tried to see the other persons view, and to do the right thing. I am not a sexual deviant or a pervert, so I have had no reason to date or even talk to a transgender entity. (Webster's defines an entity as a thing having no real existence.) I do not modify my opinion, actions, or beliefs to meet current social trends. Most importantly I will not be bullied or be talked down to, by some progressive social justice warrior who thinks that deviance and perversion is to be admired.
> 
> You have every right to your opinion, and belief system. You have no right to expect anyone else to go along with your personal delusions, or perversions. Have a nice day.


I would have loved to have been there for the witch doctor brunch.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> I would have loved to have been there for the witch doctor brunch.


I'd be somewhat nervous about what was served


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

mreynolds said:


> I would have loved to have been there for the witch doctor brunch.


Just keep in mind about getting what you wish for.

There was once a cannibal that threw up his arms after brunch and another who passed his mother In-law in the forest on the way home..


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Wasn’t your daughter in-law, was it?


Lol!


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

HDRider said:


> On Tuesday, the father of a biological girl who believes she is a boy turned himself into a Canadian court and was subsequently taken to jail after the Attorney General of British Columbia issued an arrest warrant for contempt after the father had insisted on referring to his daughter as his “daughter” and used the pronouns “she” and “her.”


.

Once I remembered it I had to put this up.


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## colourfastt (Nov 11, 2006)

Well, since we're sharing:


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

An odd moral compass


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

HDRider said:


> An odd moral compass



One can be either transposed or transfixed due to the fact true North on one's personal moral compass is based upon God given free-will choice, rather than accepting the magnetic North of absolute truth that pulls at the hearts of all of us.


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