# Starting a "virgin" hive



## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

A neighbor of mine wants me to start a hive for him. He wants all brand new equipment which I've got on order. I also have a package of bees ordered for him. The hive parts I've ordered are two hive bodies and 2 honey supers. They came with wax coated plastic foundation in wood frames. My gut says to use at least 3 frames of my own that are fully drawn out to give the queen somewhere to start, but he's really wanting to start from scratch. Is that wise? I keep thinking the girls, and the queen, will look at that baren land and decide to swarm once they get the queen out.

Need advice from y'all on this please. Sure don't want his first experience to be a couple of days only!! :huh:

My plan was to set them up in a single deep hive body with a syrup feeder in there. Then wait until they have that 70% drawn and add the next deep. Add the honey supers only when the 2nd deep is 70% drawn out, etc. Is this right?


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## SmokeEater2 (Jan 11, 2010)

I always give a new colony at LEAST a couple of frames of drawn comb since imo it gives them a large head start.

The queen can start laying almost immediately which is very important for a package or a swarm that needs brood as quickly as possible to build the foraging crew and have a better chance of surviving.

I generally add another box of frames when the last one is 70-80 % filled so they don't have excess space to try to defend against SHB's,wax moth etc. Personally I'd be happy if a 3 lb. package was able to fill 2 deeps their first summer. I wouldn't take honey from them the first year unless we had an historic nectar flow somehow.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

While it sounds as if you are doing it and not the neighbor do as you wish. But on the other hand if you are just mentoring the neighbor then do it as he wishes. thousands of package bees are installed in barren hives every spring with out them taking off to parts unknowen.
Install them in a deep with lots of syrup the girls can build lots of comb in the 3 to 4 days it takes to free the queen. keep syrup on them as long as they keep taking it. Once 7 frames are drawn install the second deep and keep feeding them still, till they have the second deep drawn out.

If it is you colony do as you wish. 
If it is mentoring then do as the hive owner wishes.

 Al


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

Thanks for the input. I guess I'll ask him just how insistant he is to have everything brand new in his hive. If he's positive he wants it his way, I guess that's what I'll do. Feed them like crazy!!

How much syrup can a brand new hive use up in a day or week? I want to make sure that they have enough and figure out what my timing will be to restock their feeder jar. I was planning on a gallon jar, if it will fit in a hive body box. I'm also assuming this would be a 1:1 syrup instead of a 2:1 winter mix?

As there would be room in the upper box, could I just add a few more frames once the bottom box was 60-70" full? Or add a full hive body of frames and move the feed box up again?


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## indypartridge (Oct 26, 2004)

While starting a new hive with a few frames of drawn comb gives them a head start, plenty of new beekeepers start each year with just foundation. Give your friend the facts and them him decide.



AverageJo said:


> How much syrup can a brand new hive use up in a day or week?


Depends on what's blooming. I've had them go through a half-gallon a day when it's been early spring and not much blooming. With the (very) early spring we're experiencing in most parts of the country, there's already plenty of nectar sources, so I wouldn't expect them to suck down the syrup as fast.



> I'm also assuming this would be a 1:1 syrup instead of a 2:1 winter mix?


Yes.



> As there would be room in the upper box, could I just add a few more frames once the bottom box was 60-70" full? Or add a full hive body of frames and move the feed box up again?


When you add the next box, it should include all the frames, otherwise the bee space won't be right and they'll make crazy comb.


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

"When you add the next box, it should include all the frames, otherwise the bee space won't be right and they'll make crazy comb."

I feed by putting an empty box on top of the full hive body and upturning a gallon/quart jar with holes in it. I place this jar on the frames of the lower box. I was just thinking that the gallon jar doesn't take up that entire box so was wondering if I could place 4 or 5 frames on one end and the jar on the other. But now I'm also starting to wonder if I aught to place the jar on sticks over the inner cover so the bees can keep their box warm.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

We start with 1 gallon jars like this free from the local pizza joints, many call us when they get a box of 6 empty.




















They are taken home, numbered with a sharpie both the lid and body so they will always be together. Then they are filled with water and set out for a couple days to check for leaks around the gaskets. Once they prove to be water tight they are then washed up to get rid of the smell of the pickles or olives of peppers what ever was in them.

Once that is complete I take the lids into the shop and drill 1/16 inche holes in the lids in a couple of rows like this, some times with just a couple lids I use a hammer and a nail on the truck tail gate.



















They are then when full of syrup set on top of the intercover like this, leaving a little space for the girls to come and go into the surround box.



















Unless you have a 3/4 inch lip on your intercover on the top side the outercover will set on top of the jar and be tippy, add a shim to prevent that.

When you remove the empty jars from the hive remove the lid right then, then just lightly set it back on the jar. If you fail to do that many times you will have to soak the jar and lid in really hot water for a bit to soften the proplis they some times pack around the edge of the lid and also syrup that cristylizes between the lid and the jar.

I at one time also had plastic two gallon pails I used as feeders. I decided I didn't like them all that well as you had to remove them to open them up and see how much syrup remained in them. It also took twice as long to mix enough syrup to fill them when the window to remove the top to put the feed on them was just a few hours long on one day before it turned cold again.










 Al


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

Talked to the neighbor again today. He's now thinking it would be OK for me to take some of my empty frames to put into his brand new equipment in order to give his queen somewhere to lay. 

We're going to trek his property tomorrow to figure out where the best placement for the hive will be. He has farmers on all sides that spray, but he also has some naturalized areas as well, but some of them are lowlands that can get pretty damp. The easiest access areas would be the building areas but he has a mentally handicapped person that comes every once in a while and he doesn't want to risk him getting curious and thus stung, so that's out as well. Sure hope I can find the ideal spot for the girls. Hope to take my camera with me so perhaps you can help me figure out the pros and cons.


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## indypartridge (Oct 26, 2004)

AverageJo said:


> He has farmers on all sides that spray...


You might want to let him know about DriftWatch.org. 
Driftwatch
It's was started by the Indiana State Chemist's office (at Purdue) but has expanded to several midwestern states. The program is voluntary, but it's a means to let pesticide applicators know where bee hives (and sensative crops) are located, along with contact info so they can let the beekeepers know if/when they are spraying.

Looks like Illinois is covered with beehives...


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## tom j (Apr 3, 2009)

In MN ,, let the DNR know that you have hives ,, and were they are , and they don' spray around your hives .. so Mare ,,, let the DNR know you have hives ..


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

That's a nice website. Didn't realize that there were that many beekeepers in our area, although I knew about quite a few of them. Problem is, this lets everyone know that you have bees, vegies, fruits, etc. but the spray applicators and farmers around here probably do NOT know about the web site nor do they care to find out. We've written all of our neighbors, the chemical companys and the sprayer outfits (ground driven as well as flyover) that we are an organic farm and they are not to spray over us or have drift come our way. Last year the plane was spraying the field across the road in 20 mph winds coming right towards the house! The kids and I fled into the house and closed all the windows. Hubby ran to the milkhouse to call the sprayer off. He was livid and the spray company just said "whoops"... but they allowed the sprayer to finish the field. Couple weeks later and our pine tree line along the road was all brown on the road side. Duh! But they didn't do anything. Didn't care. I'm thankful that we have a relatively large farm and do our best to grow buffer areas. Our bees are smak dab in the middle of the farm just for this reason. Sigh.... Hope I can find a good location for the neighbor as well.


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## sevenmmm (Mar 1, 2011)

The site is very interesting. I registered one of my hive locations I plan to stay on. 

Thanks.


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## tom j (Apr 3, 2009)

I would talk to the farmer that has the feild ,, as spraying in the wind he did not get what he paid for and allso call and see if theres any spraying regs about wind speed


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## indypartridge (Oct 26, 2004)

AverageJo said:


> Last year the plane was spraying the field across the road in 20 mph winds coming right towards the house! The kids and I fled into the house and closed all the windows. Hubby ran to the milkhouse to call the sprayer off. He was livid and the spray company just said "whoops"... but they allowed the sprayer to finish the field.


I suggesting checking into your State regulations. Here in Indiana, if something like that happened, I'd be on the phone to the State Chemist's office (who are the regulatory authority here) and they'd be on it. Not following label directions is a violation of the law and they could lose their applicator's license (spraying on a windy day is a violation).


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

We've tried that. Our word against theirs. They really couldn't give a hoot. We were told that we had to have signs along our fence lines posted every X feet stating that we were organic and no spraying allowed. But what plane is going to see that? LOL. We were thinking of painting a sign on our barn roofs! But then we were wondering if they'd actually READ it. Sigh...

I guess I'll make sure we have everyone's numbers down again for this year. Thanks for the reminder.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

If you don't own a digital camera then buy one and learn how to use it. Also spend the money for a plat book of your area.

Sort of hard to disprove pictures of a plane spraying over property near you and the wind drift covering you.

Ya you will probably have to sue but that isn't a big deal either. 

 Al


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

Hummm.... Not a bad idea. I'll have to keep it charged up as well.

The new hive should arrive tomorrow. Assemble and paint, then install. The neighbor is going to allow me to put one of my hives out there, too. That way we can do a side by side comparison of them, and if one fails, we can have the other to rob from to help it out.

Bees should arrive in about a week. I'll install packages in both hives, so they start out about the same. The only difference will be one hive will have all drawn comb and the other (his) will have only 3 frames of drawn comb. We'll move this comb slowly off to the side as other comb is built up and being used. Hopefully by the end of summer I can pull these frames so he's got only his new frames in there. Does that sound like a good plan? Am I missing something?


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

Geepers!! I got a call that the bees were in the same day the hive was delivered. Rushed to put it together and slapped on a base coat of paint. Unfortunately, I didn't think that was enough, so I ended up taking his bottom board, inner cover, outter cover and frames, but used two of my hive body boxes for his bee install. It was really getting late and there was a distinct chill in the air, so the install was quick. Did it by Al's gentle install, leaving the package upturned on the frames with a feeder, an empty hive body surrounding it and the top on top of that. That was Saturday. I'm heading up there today to make sure that they still have food and see if they've released the queen as yet. Hopefully I'll remember to take my camera with me this time. I hope to document how quickly they draw out the comb on these frames (Dadant's wax coated plastic foundation in wood frames). Once I get a good coat of paint on his hive bodies, I'll simply transfer the frames into his boxes. 

I also have one of my hives out there and did an install into it on the same day. This will give me a reference to compare between the two hives. One will have fully drawn comb and the other will only have three frames drawn out.


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

Checked the installs. They're all working on chewing the queens out of their cages. The one I put in the neighbor's hive is almost out. They emptied the quart feeders in a day and a half and have stored it in the hive. Only new wax was a long tendril hanging from the queen cage. Saw some of the bees coming in with pollen, but didn't see any of it in the frames yet. Left the queens in their cages, took out the package containers and shook out any bees that were still in it. I'll head back tomorrow with more food for them and see where they are in releasing the queens.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Don't go a holding your breath on the wax coated plastic being drawen out. After ten days the package hadn't even started on it. I replaced it with drawn comb from several hives rather than loose the bees, dieing and no brood to replace them. I put the stuff away with the idea I was going to donate it to one of the clubs we belong to. It kept slipping my elderly mind, then the next spring I got a swarm call and that was all I had to make a new hive with. That swarm drew out about half the stuff in 45 days then stopped.

Ours (Kare won the stuff in a hive raffle) took about two years to get fully drawn out.

 Al


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

I don't like the plastic either, but this guy wanted the 'complete' hive and that's what came. He didn't want to buy all the parts separate and learn how to install wax, etc. I put 3 frames of drawn comb in there for the queen to start laying in. If they haven't started to draw out the wax coated plastic by the time the 3 drawn frames are half full, I'm going to try re-waxing them to see if they'll accept it then.


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

Fed the girls again yesterday and had a few extra minutes to look more intently into them for a comparison. Mike's hive started with my three fully drawn frames and then the wax coated plastic foundation in wood frames. The queen has started laying in the old frames and the girls are starting to draw out the foundation on the frames closest to the old frames. So all looks good there. My hive with all old frames fully drawn out has the girls busy cleaning them out and fixing and patching areas that weren't what they wanted. The queen has been busy as well and there's lots of pollen being brought in as well as honey being dehydrated. I'll compare again in a week or so to see which hive has the most brood.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

sounds like they are off to a good start. I put my two new hives about 6' apart and I think some of the bees from one went to live in the other one. One hive is much more active and seems to have more bees inside. both are working though, and pulling comb. Neither hive is taking much syrup, but the blackberrys are in bloom and I think the poplar trees are too, so maybe they are finding plenty to eat on their own.


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

Well, I'm a bit disappointed....

Checked on the two hives, one in the neighbors using 'virgin' foundation, and the other in my own previously drawn out frames. ... I've been checking on them and feeding them the same. Noticed that my hive was putting on more bees than his was, but didn't think too much about it until today...

When I opened his hive, they were building on top of the three used frames I had put in there. They had only drawn out the blank frames that were across from my drawn frames. Hadn't gotten that far on them either. Sigh... When I did more of an inspection to see how the queen was doing, that's when I spotted it... a queen cell!! Couldn't find the queen, and there were only the three frames to really look over! So now I think the queen didn't like it there and swarmed as it seemed a little low on numbers. So, let me know if I'm messing this up any....

I took two of the outside blank foundation frames and put them between the used fully drawn out frames. I'm hoping that the girls will get busy and build on them. Did I just mess up his hive?? What can I do to encourage them to draw out these frames? At this rate, they won't have a single box filled in let alone a whole hive ready for winter!!


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Plastiac!!! I would not buy 10 box car loads of the crap for 38 cents. I'd rather look else where for wax foundation and frames. even frames with a starter strip and hopes of them drawing it out correct is a better choice way I look at it.

*With that said.*

Go in there and remove every plastic foundation frame, Melt down some bees wax even if you have to buy some from some one. Use a small throw away brush (or plan useing it with bees wax only) paint a good coating of wax on the foundation. Re install them in between a hive of drawn comb every other frame that plastic crap. That might work, and again it might not. I'd plan on getting someframes and wax foundation though. took over two years for a swarm to draw the plastic I had out to 80% and never did finish the other 20%.

 Al


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