# Another Gentle Pitbull Story



## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

They can be the sweetest dogs, until they decide they don't want to be sweet anymore. 

Ticking timebombs, this breed.



> Police said that Savannah was opening a door at the home to let the dog outside when he jumped on her and knocked her to the floor, biting her on the neck and shaking her violently.





> "They said &#8230; this dog has never shown aggression before ... that it's a freak thing, a freak accident," Cipriano said.


http://www.theindychannel.com/news/23736290/detail.html


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

*Sigh* Here we go again - NO they are not ticking time bombs! 

I highly doubt it was a freak accident. The vast majority of dogs of all breeds, give warnings that they are about to attack and it is only when those warnings are ignored that disaster results.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Wags said:


> *Sigh* Here we go again - NO they are not ticking time bombs!
> 
> I highly doubt it was a freak accident. The vast majority of dogs of all breeds, give warnings that they are about to attack and it is only when those warnings are ignored that disaster results.


Maybe that little girl should have wised up.

I have seen it happen, except this the victim was a horse. The pit went from kind, gentle dog to horse killer, in about 4 seconds flat. The dog had never seen a horse before. Guess they should have trained it for that.

Tick tick tick.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Gee, how many other breeds of dogs have attacked other animals the first time they saw them? 

Instead of parroting the myths presented in the media, how about you read some actual research. Maybe learn the difference between animal and human aggression and the commonalities between fatal dog attacks. Then come back and we can carry on a intelligent conversation about dangerous dogs of ALL breeds and what can be done about them.


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## PAcountry (Jun 29, 2007)

We had a pound mix mutt when I was a kid. German shep and Lab. The nicest dog , loved all of us kids.
My mom had just started dating again and she was bringing a guy home. My dog jumped up on him and ripped this guys throat out. With out warning, all the while waging his tail.
The guy survived barely we(kids) called him puppy chow after and he no longer dated my mom.


After many years of working with animals I have seen dogs no matter what the breed, do not need a reason to attack. Most do have a reason or maybe the reason is enough for them but not clear to us.
Working in the pet industry for almost 10 years I was bit 5 times all by little guys. Sure they don't kill you but they still are vicious.
Pit bulls need extensive training and good temperament because they do have a bite that kills.

Once you get rid of the pit, are you going to get rid of the Shep, rotties, dobies, and dalmatians?
You are more likely to kill someone with your car then your dog. So I want everyone to quit driving.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Wags said:


> Gee, how many other breeds of dogs have attacked other animals the first time they saw them?
> 
> Instead of parroting the myths presented in the media, how about you read some actual research. Maybe learn the difference between animal and human aggression and the commonalities between fatal dog attacks. Then come back and we can carry on a intelligent conversation about dangerous dogs of ALL breeds and what can be done about them.


It's the same tired defense and excuses. 

All my dogs (many different breeds) barked, the first time they saw horses. Sure Border Collies, probably bite more often than Pitbulls. How many times has children, or old ladies, died from poodle attacks, which are agressive breeds? Would this girls father need giving her CPR, if it was a golden retriever, having a "bad day".

In your first response, you blamed the owners, for not being alert enough, to tell that the dog was getting ready to attack. Wow.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I had a pit. She was awesome.
I had to get rid of her because she went butt wild in the back yard and ate 2 of my MIL's pet rabbits. Took her to a farm, where the farmer loved her and could care for her.

ANY breed of dog that is 'puppy milled' or 'mass bred' gets inbred. When you breed a dog with his sister, mother, cousin......it messes with their brains.
Cocker Spaniels are crazed because of this.
St. Bernard's are crazed like this.
There are SO many breeds that are a wreck because of mass breeding procedures.
Not just Pit's.

Talk to any good, reliable breeder (I think there is one on here that breeds JRT's) and they will tell you the same, and more!!

Owners are responsible for their pets, period. However no good animal owner encourages or gets a kick out of their dog attacking an innocent person.
That is also why we carry home owners insurance, in case of accidents just like this.


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## RiverPines (Dec 12, 2006)

Where are the details?
Did the dog know her?
Why was she letting it out?
Did she live with the dog?
Whats this dogs history?
What are the peoples history?

Of course they say the dog has never shown aggression before!! They sure wont admit is it was an aggressive dog because of the liability issues, duh.
So you cant take the owners word for anything.

This is a very limited, one sided story.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Wags said:


> Gee, how many other breeds of dogs have attacked other animals the first time they saw them?
> 
> Instead of parroting the myths presented in the media, how about you read some actual research. Maybe learn the difference between animal and human aggression and the commonalities between fatal dog attacks. Then come back and we can carry on a intelligent conversation about dangerous dogs of ALL breeds and what can be done about them.


Unless this guy is a liar, or somehow misinformed,his "research" directly disputes yours.



> Of the breeds most often involved in incidents of sufficient severity
> to be listed, pit bull terriers are noteworthy for attacking adults almost
> as frequently as children. This is a very rare pattern: children are
> normally at greatest risk from dogbite because they play with dogs more
> ...


http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog Attacks 1982 to 2006 Clifton.pdf



> According to the Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes are responsible for 74% of attacks that were included in the study, 68% of the attacks upon children, 82% of the attacks upon adults, 65% of the deaths, and 68% of the maimings. In more than two-thirds of the cases included in the study, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question. Clifton states:
> 
> If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier or a Rottweiler has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed--and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as their victims are paying the price.


http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> That is also why we carry home owners insurance, in case of accidents just like this.


Insurance companies pride themselves, on determining risk and dealing with it accordingly. Tell many of them that you own a pitbull and see if you receive a "no problem" response. 

Some insurance companies will say bye-bye, or at least jack up your rates.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Owners are responsible for their pets, period. However no good animal owner encourages or gets a kick out of their dog attacking an innocent person.
> That is also why we carry home owners insurance, in case of accidents just like this.


That is IF your ins. co. covers them.
Many don't cover the breeds that are perceived as "aggressive".


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

RiverPines said:


> Where are the details?
> Did the dog know her?
> Why was she letting it out?
> Did she live with the dog?
> ...


It is fact that a young girl was savagely attacked by a pitbull. The Grandma was unsuccessful in breaking the dog's grip from the girl's neck. The girl nearly died from blood loss, but was sved by receiving CPR, on the way to the hospital.

Do we really need more from the story, or are we just looking for a way to blame the victim, or the vitcim's family, instead of a dangerous breed of dog?


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Collies, dalmations , chihuahas and terriers are all more unpredictable than pitbulls. There is probably more to this story than the canine breed genocide nazis are putting out there.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

The high percentages has more to do with the fact that pit bulls and other aggressive dogs are more likely to be bred in poor areas than any other breed and more likely not to be trained due to the public's perception that the breeds can't be trainable which is pure bs any way you look at it.

I used to raise and breed pit bulls for catching feral hogs. Pits have a high prey drive so for them to go ape at the first sight of an animal other than a dog is considered normal..even for trained dogs. Never had a pit be dog aggressive. EVER. Had more problems with the strike/hunting dogs (catahoulas, blackmouth curs, etc) fighting with each other than with the pits fighting with each other or any other dogs which NEVER happened. 

It's all in how you know to train dogs and how to read them, etc. Also knowing the bloodlines help greatly in avoiding inbred bloodlines. To be honest, most dog breeds are inbred to some extent. That's how you develop a breed.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Shrek said:


> Collies, dalmations , chihuahas and terriers are all more unpredictable than pitbulls. There is probably more to this story than the canine breed genocide nazis are putting out there.


Dog bite does not equal dog mauling.

If I owned a junkyard, I'd have a pitbull or rot, in a heart-beat. Maybe two. 
In my home, even though they can be sweet dogs and great protectors, I'll pass.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

plowjockey said:


> Unless this guy is a liar, or somehow misinformed,his "research" directly disputes yours.


My research is a little broader than just a quick google search. 

Have you read the books "Fatal Dog Attacks" or "The Pitbull Placebo"? How about "Dogs Bite: But Balloons and Slippers Are More Dangerous"? No? Perhaps you should. "The Pitbull Placebo" is available as a free PDF book on The National Canine Research Council website. Or you can purchase it from Amazon.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

plowjockey said:


> Dog bite does not equal dog mauling.
> 
> If I owned a junkyard, I'd have a pitbull or rot, in a heart-beat. Maybe two.
> In my home, even though they can be sweet dogs and great protectors, I'll pass.


Then you would perpetuating the stereo-type for both breeds and making it obvious that you are a person that is so uniformed that they shouldn't own either under any circumstances.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I agree with plowjockey. I have seen too many pitbulls attack and kill. While other dogs can be aggressive, and any dogs can be put in a position where they bite, pitbulls are the only dog I personally have ever seen attack with no provocation at all. And they do serious damage. Of course that is why people have them and the owners should responsible unto criminal jail time if the dog is not controlled. 
Add that with the number of lazy fools who think that they are hot stuff in owning a dangerous animal and spend no time training, it is no surprise that pitbulls kill the most people. They are a dog only for those who take responsibility for them and guard against trouble. Unfortunately too many of the people attracted to the "bad dog" image are too irresponsible.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

where I want to said:


> I agree with plowjockey. I have seen too many pitbulls attack and kill. While other dogs can be aggressive, and any dogs can be put in a position where they bite, pitbulls are the only dog I personally have ever seen attack with no provocation at all. And they do serious damage. Of course that is why people have them and the owners should responsible unto criminal jail time if the dog is not controlled.
> Add that with the number of lazy fools who think that they are hot stuff in owning a dangerous animal and spend no time training, it is no surprise that pitbulls kill the most people. They are a dog only for those who take responsibility for them and guard against trouble. Unfortunately too many of the people attracted to the "bad dog" image are too irresponsible.


Have any real proof to back your claim that pit bulls kill the most people? 

Do you know the history of the breed in the USA? Do you know what breeds preceded it as the breed preferred by criminals? Do you have any idea what would happen if all pit bulls were suddenly banned nation wide? 

How would you suggest solving the problem of dangerous dogs (regardless of their breed) and the criminal element that uses dogs (of any breed) for nefarious purposes?


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

stay out of this dog fight.......


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Wags said:


> Then you would perpetuating the stereo-type for both breeds and making it obvious that you are a person that is so uniformed that they shouldn't own either under any circumstances.


LOL
Sterotype? When I drive by any businesses that use guard dogs, I sure *DON"T* see collies, poodles, or a schipperke, peering back at me, through the chain link fence.

Uninformed as to what? Can these dogs be kind, gentle and loyal dogs, with never a problem, maybe for their entire lives? Of course they can! It's just when things don't go as planned, a dog bite, quickly becomes a frantic call to 911, with subsequent visits to the plastic surgeon, or maybe the graveyard.

All breeds of dogs will bite, but only a few have the capability and drive to severly injure or kill humans. Nearly all breeds can be gentle, loving and loyal, to their owners, their family and friends.

So why a pitbull?

Please inform me.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

I have provided links for you to inform yourself, including a link to a free copy of one of the books I mentioned. Stop being lazy and go read for yourself.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> ANY breed of dog that is 'puppy milled' or 'mass bred' gets inbred. When you breed a dog with his sister, mother, cousin......it messes with their brains.


There is so much ignorance being spewed in this thread that I'm not even going to attempt to get in this discussion, but this comment takes the cake.

Do you not know that EVERY breed of domestic animal (ANIMAL, not just dog) that we have in existence today is the direct result of inbreeding? Inbreeding is used to set the genotype when you have developed the phenotype that you want, and in the hands of a knowledgeable breeder actually *improves* the breed.


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## dezingg (Feb 25, 2010)

plowjockey said:


> It is fact that a young girl was savagely attacked by a pitbull. The Grandma was unsuccessful in breaking the dog's grip from the girl's neck. The girl nearly died from blood loss, but was sved by receiving CPR, on the way to the hospital.
> 
> Do we really need more from the story, or are we just looking for a way to blame the victim, or the vitcim's family, instead of a dangerous breed of dog?


The problem is that with the additional information, we could have decided for ourselves, if we agree with the conclusions of the reporter. Without the needed information, the only thing that we know is that it is a sad story.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

TedH71 said:


> I used to raise and breed pit bulls for catching feral hogs. Pits have a high prey drive so for them to go ape at the first sight of an animal other than a dog is considered normal..even for trained dogs. Never had a pit be dog aggressive. EVER. Had more problems with the strike/hunting dogs (catahoulas, blackmouth curs, etc) fighting with each other than with the pits fighting with each other or any other dogs which NEVER happened.


I have a catahoula. She recently cornered a possum in the yard, and while it was hissing at her, she started licking its back. :doh: OK, but, she's one heck of a squirrel dog!

A doberman raised my two kids for 12 years. I never worried one lick about her around the kids. They were babies together.
A friend dropped his 8 y/o daughter off at our house. While saying goodbye to her, he swooped her up, holding her high. My dobie appeared out of no where with a vicious noise. I said to him, "Put her down". He said "It's MY daughter". I said, "Explain that to the dog." My dog had never seen that little girl before, but recognized that she was a child and thought she needed protection.
She also wouldn't let my very angry and drunk ex in the house one night. He sat outside until he wasn't angry anymore, then she let him come in. LOL


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

The pit bull was developed and bred for fighting. Aggression was bred in along with strength, balance, a hard bite, and gameness. The dog was never bred for pets or family dogs. There are a few that can excell at both but the percentage is not high.
Back before the 1970's there wasn't any pit bull attacks. The main reason is the people keeping them and breeding them did so for a purpose. They knew the dogs and what they were capable of doing. In the late 70's people began to raise the dogs for pets and family dogs. The attacks began.

It is usually easy to tell the people who know the breed. Anyone who talks about cropping the tail of a pit bull has their breeds mixed up. You do not dock the tail of a pit bull. You do not let a pit bull run free. You do not leave a pit bull with another animal of any kind unattended. It is not a good idea to try to make a pit bull into a house dog. It is just too dangerous.

Many people will say they had a pit bull that was gentle with everything and everybody. These are examples of poor breeding or a mixed breed dog.
They were bred for one thing only.

Not many people know how to handle an aggressive dog much less an aggressive pit bull. They will attack with no notice, even wag their tail while they are killing something.

I could never understand why someone would want to make a pet or housedog out of a dog bred for other things. Not many performance breeds make good pets. The people who continue to think a pit bull makes a good family dog or pet is ruining the breed. Never before was the breed known for attacking people. Just like many breeds developed for a certain job the pit bull must be kept busy and worked. Without that they will continue to be a danger to others.


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## 36376 (Jan 24, 2009)

I used to sell insurance. Now a days your homeowners policy will get canceled or they will not extend liability if you have certain breeds of dogs. Chows and Sharpeis (wrinkle dogs) are two that surprised me that were on "the list" of a major insurance company. The dog I have now is a mix of three kinds of dogs. Two of which are on our company's "list." Dogs and trampolines are big "watch" items for insurance companies.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Dogs are like humans, individuals. Calling one breed natural born "killers" is like calling one race of humans naturally born child abusers.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

watcher said:


> Dogs are like humans, individuals. Calling one breed natural born "killers" is like calling one race of humans naturally born child abusers.


Dogs are not much like humans. They have been bred for centuries to do a certain job, look a certain way, be a certain color, size, shape.
They have been selective bred for certain traits.
If people were bred for certain traits it would be possible to breed humans with special traits. People are scatter bred. No special trait. If dogs or any animal were bred the same way there wouldn't be any different breeds.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Wags said:


> My research is a little broader than just a quick google search.
> 
> Have you read the books "Fatal Dog Attacks" or "The Pitbull Placebo"? How about "Dogs Bite: But Balloons and Slippers Are More Dangerous"? No? Perhaps you should. "The Pitbull Placebo" is available as a free PDF book on The National Canine Research Council website. Or you can purchase it from Amazon.


Ok. I skimmed the free book, but read chapter 10, about the pitbull, the media and the politics. The author is pro-pitbull and that is fine. She makes some very valid historical and current points.

The media loves a horror story. Nothing new here. Is not a pitbull mauling, resulting in severe injury or even death, a horror story? If a rot mauls and kills, it will hit the 6:00 news, also. That being the case, if there is a severe mauling and killing by any other breed of dog, will the media ignore yet another horror story? Doubtful.

Pitbulls used by politicians is really no surprise. If you can scare voters, into paying attention to you, as a politician, you will do what you need to do. Passing anti pit legislation, to people already afraid of them, is a sure winner.

I base my caution what I know these dogs are capable of and what I have personally seen them do. When I read yet another story about a young girl, with her throat ripped out by a pitbull, am I being wrongly influenced by media hype?

I understand pitbulls perfectly and they have my utmost respect.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> According to the Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios* and their mixes *


And half the *mutts* that bite anyone gets LABELED "Pit Bull" even if they aren't

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html



> Only one of the pictures below features the real American PitBull Terrier. Take the test to see if you can find it


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

dezingg said:


> The problem is that with the additional information, we could have decided for ourselves, if we agree with the conclusions of the reporter. Without the needed information, the only thing that we know is that it is a sad story.


Unfortunately, these stories never have a happy ending.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Wags said:


> *Sigh* Here we go again - *NO they are not ticking time bombs! *
> I highly doubt it was a freak accident. The vast majority of dogs of all breeds, give warnings that they are about to attack and it is only when those warnings are ignored that disaster results.



Wags, here is a story I know personally. An adult nephew had two pit bulls over time (one at a time). The third was a gentle house dog and loved by my 10yrold great nephew. One day the dad was napping on the sofa and rolled over when his arm came in contact with the dog walking by. The dog began to maul the arm. My nephew managed to kick and beat the dog to the door and out of the house. He got his gun and ended the story within three minutes. However, it didnât end the stereotype of pit bulls. 

Lucky it was the dad and not the boy.


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## HorseGirl31 (Apr 7, 2010)

Those dogs freak me out.I don't care how nice they may be, but they are just ticking time bombs.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

pancho said:


> The pit bull was developed and bred for fighting. Aggression was bred in along with strength, balance, a hard bite, and gameness. The dog was never bred for pets or family dogs. There are a few that can excell at both but the percentage is not high.
> Back before the 1970's there wasn't any pit bull attacks. The main reason is the people keeping them and breeding them did so for a purpose. They knew the dogs and what they were capable of doing. In the late 70's people began to raise the dogs for pets and family dogs. The attacks began.
> 
> It is usually easy to tell the people who know the breed. Anyone who talks about cropping the tail of a pit bull has their breeds mixed up. You do not dock the tail of a pit bull. You do not let a pit bull run free. You do not leave a pit bull with another animal of any kind unattended. It is not a good idea to try to make a pit bull into a house dog. It is just too dangerous.
> ...


Whoops - lots of misinformation in this post. Although I do agree, docking tails has never been a pit bull thing. You really need to do some reading on the history of the various "pit bull" breeds. Not all pit bulls were used in pit fighting, and those that were had to be people friendly or the handlers and referees that were in the ring during the fight would have gotten bitten. The truth is that they were considered loving and loyal members of the family and hard working farm dogs. In fact that is why the first RCA dog was a pit bull. The idea was if you could fool the most loyal dog that it was his masters voice on the recording then it had to be a very good product. 

Try reading The Pitbull Placebo - it covers some of the history of the breed and is available as a free e-book at the link provided.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

LaManchaPaul said:


> Wags, here is a story I know personally. An adult nephew had two pit bulls over time (one at a time). The third was a gentle house dog and loved by my 10yrold great nephew. One day the dad was napping on the sofa and rolled over when his arm came in contact with the dog walking by. The dog began to maul the arm. My nephew managed to kick and beat the dog to the door and out of the house. He got his gun and ended the story within three minutes. However, it didnât end the stereotype of pit bulls.
> 
> Lucky it was the dad and not the boy.



It's too bad that happened, but it could have easily occurred with any other breed. One experience doesn't make the whole group bad. That would be like saying because I was raped by a Hispanic guy that all Hispanic guys are rapists and should be castrated before being shot.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

HorseGirl31 said:


> Those dogs freak me out.I don't care how nice they may be, but they are just ticking time bombs.



Nope - not ticking time bombs. But since it is memorial day...



> America's first war dog, Stubby, served 18 months 'over there' and participated in seventeen battles on the Western Front. He saved his regiment from surprise mustard gas attacks, located and comforted the wounded, and even once caught a German spy by the seat of his pants. Back home his exploits were front page news of every major newspaper.


You can read more about this bull & terrier mix at http://www.uswardogs.org/id16.html

You could also educate yourself about the history of canines in the USA by reading the book I've linked to twice in this thread already. "The Pitbull Placebo." It doesn't just cover the history of the Pit bull breeds - but also other popular large dog breeds.

You can also learn about the specific history of the breeds commonly called "pit bulls" at this site: http://www.hellobully.com/pb101/pitbull101.html


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

All I know is they have devil eyes!


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> All I know is they have devil eyes!


Devil eyes?



He will be trained as a certified therapy dog just as the dog he replaced was. Pit bulls natural LOVE for people and high pain tolerance make them especially good therapy dogs for visiting in nursing homes.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Wags said:


> Devil eyes?


Devil Eyes!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wags said:


> Whoops - lots of misinformation in this post. Although I do agree, docking tails has never been a pit bull thing. You really need to do some reading on the history of the various "pit bull" breeds. Not all pit bulls were used in pit fighting, and those that were had to be people friendly or the handlers and referees that were in the ring during the fight would have gotten bitten. The truth is that they were considered loving and loyal members of the family and hard working farm dogs. In fact that is why the first RCA dog was a pit bull. The idea was if you could fool the most loyal dog that it was his masters voice on the recording then it had to be a very good product.
> 
> Try reading The Pitbull Placebo - it covers some of the history of the breed and is available as a free e-book at the link provided.


I know the history of the pit bull fairly well. I helped write a book called the history of the pit bull terrier. It included the pedigrees of many pit bulls before they were imported to the U.S up to today. I also raised the breed for over 50 years. At one time owning one of the top dogs in the U.S.

There are no various pit bull breeds. It is one or it isn't. Some people don't know what a real pit bull is but that don't make any other dog a variety of pit bull. There are no varieties. Some people think a few other breeds are pit bulls. The pit bull was never a hard working farm dog. You have your breeds mixed up. The pit bull was developed and bred for a fighting dog. Not many farms had any need of a dog that would kill the other animals. Like I said, those who don't really know the breed are destroying it. They read something written by a person who has no knowledge of the history of the breed and no experience with the breed. Since it fits into their idea they think it is the truth. Not everything you read on the internet is the truth.

Many of the pit bulls used in pit matches were man eaters. It wasn't out of the ordinary for the handelers and refree to come to the ring armed. Some of the greatest fighting dogs were man eaters. A little more research into the breed would give you the names of many of the most famous pit bulls that were man eaters.

The RCA dog wasn't even a real pit bull. It was a terrier cross. Most of the dogs some people use as an example of the breed were not even pit bulls, a few were crosses but mainly they were mutts. Then again, most people would not recognize a pit bull if they saw a real one.

PS.
The one site you keep mentioning, The Pitbull Placebo is a joke. Any site the says there are varities is a joke. Especially one that says a bully is a variety. A bully has more mastiff blood than pit bull, along with many other breeds. Not even the bully people will say it is a pit bull. Not even the person who developed the breed will say it is a pit bull. The amstaff and the pit bull are the same dog, just different registeries. One, the AKC does not recognize the pit bull as a breed. The first amstaff registered with AKC was a UKC registered pit bull. Their standards were based on an old Colby bred pit bull. The staffordshire is a completely different breed.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Wags said:


> I have provided links for you to inform yourself, including a link to a free copy of one of the books I mentioned. Stop being lazy and go read for yourself.




You should be ashamed of yourself, trying to inject some facts into another "Bash the Pitbull" thread. Everybody knows they are dangerous and should be outlawed. All they need to do is find enough FACTS to prove it so they can finally get rid of those "dangerous" dogs. 
Some people might consider that backwards, deciding something is dangerous then looking for proof.
I've yet to meet a mean pit bull. I owned a chow/pit bull mix, and she caught a sparrow once without hurting it. Must have been that infamous "pitbull bite" she used on the bird.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Regardless of training methods, etc., one thing that MUST be present is... as the owner, you MUST ALWAYS maintain the Alpha role. Even when you think they're being cute. I don't mean you must have a stern demeanor all the time, but most dogs (especially males) of any breed will assume that role the minute they think that you're slacking. I believe that this is where the troubles start. 

This doesn't just apply to dogs.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Another thing.... I think it's important that kids are taught properly. Like, don't smile at a strange dog. Baring your teeth in the dog world is not a smile, it's a threat. If people took time to understand dog language, less "accidents" would happen. 
Ask any horse person. They read the signs so can better know what to expect. 
There are natural instincts that, unless taught to think around it, will send animals into doing something You may not expect... but is a perfectly natural reaction in their world.
This is WHY you must be a strong Alpha. So they look to you before reacting.


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

EasyDay said:


> That is IF your ins. co. covers them.
> Many don't cover the breeds that are perceived as "aggressive".


And if your Insurance will cover the agressive Breeds, the Premiums are much higher.
I know that Pitbulls, Rottweilers, Dobermans, & Akitas are on the List.
I'm not sure about which other Breeds might be.
We have Dobermans. We love them, so we pay the higher Premium.
It's what you do.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Just about any dog is able to tell the difference in a dog and a person.
The alpha is a dog, not a person. You never want to let the dog think you are an alpha dog, a person is not a dog. Most dogs will, at some time, challenge the alpha. You do not want to put yourself in that position.

Being bred for combat, the pit bull does not understand alpha dogs. They were bred to accept any challenge. If you challenge one you should be able to carry out that challenge. That is one thing that causes many problems with the pet bull society. 

Very few people understand gameness. Gameness is the one quality or trait that seperates the pit bull from other breeds. In other breeds, if they are loosing they will quit. The pit bull has been bred to never know they are loosing. They always think they are winning, even to the point of death.

The pit bull was a great breed until the 1970's. For centurys they had a job to do and they were the best at that job. People who wanted a dog for that job did a very good job of selective breeding and testing to come up such a dog. Now people want a dog that looks like the breed but magically will have only the traits they want with none of the traits they were bred for many centurys. Just doesn't make sense.

People do not take a greyhound and never let it run and expect the dog to forget what traits developed them. They do not take a bloodhound and never expect the dog to try to follow a scent. Border collies will try to herd even if it is only around people. 
The bloodhound was bred for speed.
The bloodhound was bred for its nose.
The border collie was bred for its herding.
The pit bull was bred for combat.

Expecting any of the breeds to change the traits they were selective bred for is not ever a good idea. Doing so with the pit bull can end up causing pain to something or somebody. Everyone makes their own decisions about the risks they want to take. If you think you can somehow reverse hundreds of years of selective breeding overnight, good luck. Some are lucky and a few are not. We read in the newspapers and see on TV those who did not win the gamble.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Pit bulls can be great dogs, but you MUST know how to train one, sad fact is most dog owners are not dog trainers. Just because you can make a dog; Sit, Beg or Roll Over, doesn't mean you know how to train a dog properly.
As others have said breeding matters also.

Having said that, I wouldn't own one


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> Devil Eyes!


good photoshop job on the Rottie


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Wags said:


> good photoshop job on the Rottie


Don't believe it was photoshopped.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

pancho said:


> I know the history of the pit bull fairly well. I helped write a book called the history of the pit bull terrier. It included the pedigrees of many pit bulls before they were imported to the U.S up to today. I also raised the breed for over 50 years. At one time owning one of the top dogs in the U.S.
> 
> There are no various pit bull breeds. It is one or it isn't. Some people don't know what a real pit bull is but that don't make any other dog a variety of pit bull. There are no varieties. Some people think a few other breeds are pit bulls. The pit bull was never a hard working farm dog. You have your breeds mixed up. The pit bull was developed and bred for a fighting dog. Not many farms had any need of a dog that would kill the other animals. Like I said, those who don't really know the breed are destroying it. They read something written by a person who has no knowledge of the history of the breed and no experience with the breed. Since it fits into their idea they think it is the truth. Not everything you read on the internet is the truth.
> 
> ...


Pitbull Placebo isn't a joke, and its not the only book I've mentioned, it is just the only book available as a free ebook. And its sole focus is not pit bulls, it is on the history of canines in the USA. Colby's book is also a great resource, but it does focus only on fighting dogs.

If you focus solely on the fighting history you are missing a lot of history of the breed. Including the history where that breed was chosen to represent the USA in war posters under the title - neutral but not afraid of anyone. And the history where folks like Helen Keller owned one as did several presidents. And you don't know much about farming if you think a tough dog wasn't needed. They were used on farms to ward of predators and to catch bulls and hogs.

The AST and APBT did come from the same root stock, but after 70 some years of breeding to a different standard there are difference between the two. As for modern history how many punks are calling their bully's "pits" and advertising huge sizes that are so far off of breed standard as to be a complete joke. How many animal control officers know the differences? Breeds specific laws don't distinguish either - the 5 bully breeds get lumped together as "pit bulls". And mixed breeds that appear to have a blocky head get lumped into the same "pit bull" category as well even if there isn't a drop of APBT blood in their veins.

An entire province in Canada has a breed ban based on a vicious attack that turned out not to have been caused by a pit bull type dog at all but a lab/dalmatian cross. Guess what, the ban is still in place. 

The bottom line is no dog (or any other animal) is 100% safe, 100% of the time. If you think that your golden retriever would never act like one of those "devil dog" pit bulls then you are very mistaken. If you think that cute little wiener dog could never kill a human tell that to the people who's 6 week old child was dragged from the play pen and chewed up by their dachshund. A toy poodle that rips out a child's eye is not a cute little fluff ball. If you are going to own a dog, regardless of its breed or size, you need to be a responsible owner.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Looks like the rott was crossed with a catahoula leopard since the breed does have glass (ice blue) eyes. Nice photo though.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wags said:


> Pitbull Placebo isn't a joke, and its not the only book I've mentioned, it is just the only book available as a free ebook. And its sole focus is not pit bulls, it is on the history of canines in the USA. Colby's book is also a great resource, but it does focus only on fighting dogs.
> 
> If you focus solely on the fighting history you are missing a lot of history of the breed. Including the history where that breed was chosen to represent the USA in war posters under the title - neutral but not afraid of anyone. And the history where folks like Helen Keller owned one as did several presidents. And you don't know much about farming if you think a tough dog wasn't needed. They were used on farms to ward of predators and to catch bulls and hogs.
> 
> ...


The history of the pit bull focuses mainly about fighting. That is why the breed was developed. Why do you think they were imported into the U.S.
They weren't imported because they were a great family or farm dog.
Check into the history of the first imports. See why they were imported. Notice who imported the dogs and why. While you are reading the history please tell me anyone who imported the dog for any other reason. I sure would like to know their name as I have never heard of such a person. If you are truly interested in their history you can find the pedigree, names, owners, importers, of the first pit bulls. One thing you will also see if you choose to read the history, the match reports.

A picture does not represent the history of the breed. It is only a picture of that single dog, not a history of the breed. Also, an owner of a single dog does not represent the history of the breed, no matter who that person is.
A tough dog was needed on the farm, not one that would attack and kill all animals. A catch dog is not allowed to run free. It will do as it is supposed to and catch. It doesn't matter if it is a predator or the family milk cow.

The only difference in the AST and the APBT is where they are registered. Some are dual registered, some tri. You will find many who will argue the point but that don't explain how a dog can be registered as both. Some make champions in both breeds.
Care how to explain how a dog could be a champion AST and a champion APBT?
Check into the bully history. Notice who developed the breed. Read in his own words what blood went into the dogs.
Not a lot of people recognize a well bred pit bull. Many owners have what they think is a pit bull but is a mixture of breeds at best. There is only one pit bull.

Many places are voting in breed bans. In just about every one the dog they blame is either not a pit bull or is a "pet bull".

Any breed can and will bite. It is just the pit bull has so much more ability when it does attack. Not many breeds will attack and kill a healthy full grown person. The pit bull has that ability. Most breeds can be broken off the person even if they do attack. When a pit bull attacks it is usually those with no experience with the breed that try to break them off their victim.
This just usually makes the attacking pit bull more aggressive and it does more damage.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

pancho said:


> Dogs are not much like humans. They have been bred for centuries to do a certain job, look a certain way, be a certain color, size, shape.
> They have been selective bred for certain traits.
> If people were bred for certain traits it would be possible to breed humans with special traits. People are scatter bred. No special trait. If dogs or any animal were bred the same way there wouldn't be any different breeds.


I disagree. Different "breeds" of people from specific areas have special traits. Why do you think people from mid and southern Africa are the color they are? Its because they were "bred" to live in a very hot sunny area. Ever notice people from the colder areas of the world tend to be 'chubbier' than people from warmer areas?

Its called selective breeding. As the world "gets smaller" we are starting to all start looking alike. 

Also have you ever notice how some abilities seem to be "handed down"? If the parents are musical then the children tend to be as well. Music requires skill and talent. Almost anyone can learn the skill to play the piano, its not much more difficlut than learning to type, but if you don't have the talent you will never be able to really "play".


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

watcher said:


> I disagree. Different "breeds" of people from specific areas have special traits. Why do you think people from mid and southern Africa are the color they are? Its because they were "bred" to live in a very hot sunny area. Ever notice people from the colder areas of the world tend to be 'chubbier' than people from warmer areas?
> 
> Its called selective breeding. As the world "gets smaller" we are starting to all start looking alike.
> 
> Also have you ever notice how some abilities seem to be "handed down"? If the parents are musical then the children tend to be as well. Music requires skill and talent. Almost anyone can learn the skill to play the piano, its not much more difficlut than learning to type, but if you don't have the talent you will never be able to really "play".


You are probably right about people. Although the traits you speak of aren't planned breedings. The enviroment controls them. At one time dogs were the same. People then began choosing what traits they wanted and breeds were developed.
Check out the experiment done on the fox. They can be domesticated. It takes a few generations and they change in size, color, voice, and actions.
Seems like the trait of becomming domesticated carries some other traits along with it.
Someday, some people say they already do it, people may do the same with people.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Sure, pitt bulls can be dangerous and can even take your life.

But a cat can take your eternal soul.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> But a cat can take your eternal soul


Not if you don't have one


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Not if you don't have one


A cat or a soul?


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## PAcountry (Jun 29, 2007)

pancho said:


> A cat or a soul?


I would suppose both.
If you dont have a cat then it cant take your soul. If you dont have a soul then a cat cant take it


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

tyusclan said:


> There is so much ignorance being spewed in this thread that I'm not even going to attempt to get in this discussion, but this comment takes the cake.
> 
> Do you not know that EVERY breed of domestic animal (ANIMAL, not just dog) that we have in existence today is the direct result of inbreeding? Inbreeding is used to set the genotype when you have developed the phenotype that you want, and in the hands of a knowledgeable breeder actually *improves* the breed.


I stand corrected. I did some research and asked a few breeders about this practice of "inbreeding" and it was explained in depth to me how breeding inside the same line is ok....but doesn't improve the line. It's not the 'preferred' breeders choice (finding a stud outside the 'family' would be best), but done carefully, it is 'ok'.

I should stick to baking threads.........I can bake a mean cake!


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## tallpines (Apr 9, 2003)

It happened in our area this past weekend.

"Very Sweet" Pit attacked his own owner severely injuring her.

http://www.leadertelegram.com/local_news/story/article_43472bd1-f42a-556a-8b54-c35e37e25551.html


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

I always ask people who are spouting stuff about pit bulls if they've EVER raised or bred or trained pit bulls. They usually haven't. I point out that if they haven't then they have NO right to spout out comments they can't back up. I tell them come talk to me AFTER you've raised a pit pup from excellent bloodlines (there are tons out there but you do have to do your research and don't buy from a byb breeder). I tend to buy from hog dog hunters because they will not hesitate to cull a dog or human aggressive pit and breed from the ones that are good with people/dogs. They're not always registered but I tend to try to buy registered dogs from either UKC or ADBA bloodlines due to the fact you can pretty much figure out what bloodlines they came from (as long as the breeder was honest about their dogs). I did buy one that was both AKC and UKC registered and she was an excellent dog. As for ADBA registered pits, you DO have to do your research because they tend to be somewhat dog aggressive and it's genetics. As for UKC, I am less worried about dog aggressiveness because UKC tends to be more dog show oriented.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Years ago, before they became pets, dog men could pretty much tell the bloodline just by looking at the dog. Each well known bloodline was known for slightly different looks and traits. Many were inbred or at least from the same family. It was possible to pick out a pup and have a good idea on what kind of dog it would grow up to be. Different people wanted different traits. Many pedigrees were hand written, some only existed in the mind of the owner and breeder. Owners were quite a bit different. The pit bull was not a popular breed. Most owners knew the history of the breed, what they were capable of, and knew how to handle them.

Back in those days the UKC was the only registery that recognized the pit bull as a breed. It was the only breed they registered. The UKC also put out a magazine which had the pit reports. They also recorded pit champions. The pit bull went through a few name changes. Always the same dog, just different names. The UKC quit reporting pit matches and began to register a couple more breeds. They lost some owners who went over to the ADBA. Back then there was little respect for the ADBa as they would allow owners to make up a pedigree and register their dogs.

We will skip ahead to when the pit bull nbegan to be a more popular dog. People began breeding dogs to sell to the public. Since they were not interested in the history there was no need to plan breedings. If it was a pit bull it would sell. Dogs were scatter bred, it was no longer possible to tell the bloodline as they were less family bred dogs. Dogs were now bred for a certain look that was popular at that time. People wanted a dog that looked like what they thought a tough, strong, aggressive dog should look like. The problem was what they thought a pit bull should look like was nothing like what a real pit bull actually looked like. To get a dog that looked like what was popular some people began to mix in other breeds. Those hundreds of years of selective breeding wasn't needed. People even began to breed for a certain color. The color of choice has changed several times. 

Now we have the pit bull of today. Those traits that made it what the breed was supposed to be is on the way out. Many of the people who breed today do not know the history and some even want to rewrite the history. We are left with a dog that is strong, tough, has a great bite, but is unstable. Many owners believe they can reverse the traits they choose to just on how the dog is raised. They try to keep the pit bull the same way they would a poodle or beagle. Even though the pit bull is a shell of what it once was every once in a while we have a throw back. The unstable dog has the aggressiveness of its forefathers. When it does what history says it was bred for it completely surprises the modern day owner. We read about it in the headlines and see the results on TV.

A sad end to a once great breed. Ruined by those who think they are saving it.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I stand corrected. I did some research and asked a few breeders about this practice of "inbreeding" and it was explained in depth to me how breeding inside the same line is ok....*but doesn't improve the* *line.* It's not the 'preferred' breeders choice


I'm really not trying to pick on you, and I appreciate you checking and being willing to post back, but done *properly*, by someone who truly knows what they're doing, and *culls* as they should, a line of dogs _can_ be improved by inbreeding. If any one of those is missing it can be a disaster.


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

How about this non-pit bull dog that attacked "out of nowhere"? (I would have put the dog down after 1 incident.) It was a St. Bernard. I've heard of plenty of St. Bernards and Irish Setters that have attacked out of nowhere like this. I know of a well-bred German Shepherd who did the same thing. A St. Bernard in true attack mode could easily be as dangerous as a pit bull. Even moreso if the pit was properly sized.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=349500

I don't know why I bother to post on these threads. No, every pit is not a well bred, stable saint of a dog. The high proportion of crappy "breeders" who have no interest or the correct knowledge to produce a decent dog pretty much ensures that the breed or breed type's reputation will not be changed any time soon. It is a tragedy that any innocent child has been attacked by any dog. 

That said, the stats on "pit attacks" are more inaccurate than our government's economic reports. Some of them are gleaned from newspaper articles, others from hospital reports. Often the fact that a dog attacked makes it a pit bull, regardless of the actual breed of the dog. It could have (and has on a few occasions) been something like a golden retriever. Banning certain breeds or even dogs of certain appearances is going to do nothing to improve the overall stability and safety of dogs you might come into contact with.

If you don't like or trust a specific kind of dog, don't get one. If you feel that the very existence of these dogs is a risk then you need to evaluate each and every facet of your life. Statistically there are plenty of other things to ban before you get to any kind of dog. (As others have mentioned.) Personally I'd rather have less government intrusion in my life. That includes being told what kind of dog I'm allowed to own.

Kayleigh


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

EasyDay said:


> I have a catahoula. She recently cornered a possum in the yard, and while it was hissing at her, she started licking its back. :doh: OK, but, she's one heck of a squirrel dog!
> 
> A doberman raised my two kids for 12 years. I never worried one lick about her around the kids. They were babies together.
> A friend dropped his 8 y/o daughter off at our house. While saying goodbye to her, he swooped her up, holding her high. My dobie appeared out of no where with a vicious noise. I said to him, "Put her down". He said "It's MY daughter". I said, "Explain that to the dog." My dog had never seen that little girl before, but recognized that she was a child and thought she needed protection.
> She also wouldn't let my very angry and drunk ex in the house one night. He sat outside until he wasn't angry anymore, then she let him come in. LOL


LOVE the Dobermans..I owned two. best dogs ever. 

What I always noticed is when i meet owners/former owners of Dobermans I have NEVER heard anybody say anything negative about the breed.


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

TedH71 said:


> I always ask people who are spouting stuff about pit bulls if they've EVER raised or bred or trained pit bulls. They usually haven't. I point out that if they haven't then they have NO right to spout out comments they can't back up. I tell them come talk to me AFTER you've raised a pit pup from excellent bloodlines (there are tons out there but you do have to do your research and don't buy from a byb breeder). I tend to buy from hog dog hunters because they will not hesitate to cull a dog or human aggressive pit and breed from the ones that are good with people/dogs. They're not always registered but I tend to try to buy registered dogs from either UKC or ADBA bloodlines due to the fact you can pretty much figure out what bloodlines they came from (as long as the breeder was honest about their dogs). I did buy one that was both AKC and UKC registered and she was an excellent dog. As for ADBA registered pits, you DO have to do your research because they tend to be somewhat dog aggressive and it's genetics. As for UKC, I am less worried about dog aggressiveness because UKC tends to be more dog show oriented.


I think the biggest factor is the person who is raising the dog. Not everyone is suited for these special breeds.


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## QuiltingLady2 (Jan 3, 2007)

We have experiance in our family with Pits. I personally will never own one. But, my brother and cousins have had them. They are just as gentle and dangerous as any weapon. And should be treated as such. 
Lock your weapons, gun safe them when not in use. Know how to use them. Take classes in whatever weaponry that is chosen.
The same goes for this breed of dog. Let's just say any breed that's intent is to protect.
Personally I believe that owners need a license to own them. That would include training. And if the owner didn't follow through with the training they couldn't own the dog. Sound tough? Ask the child, owner, neighbor, grandparent who is scard for life or dead.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

lilmizlayla said:


> LOVE the Dobermans..I owned two. best dogs ever.
> 
> What I always noticed is when i meet owners/former owners of Dobermans I have NEVER heard anybody say anything negative about the breed.


That's probably because Dobermans are not known, for unexpectantly grabbing a human by the neck, not releasing their grip and violently shaking or biting, until the victim is dead.


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## QuiltingLady2 (Jan 3, 2007)

TedH71 said:


> I always ask people who are spouting stuff about pit bulls if they've EVER raised or bred or trained pit bulls. They usually haven't. I point out that if they haven't then they have NO right to spout out comments they can't back up. I tell them come talk to me AFTER you've raised a pit pup from excellent bloodlines (there are tons out there but you do have to do your research and don't buy from a byb breeder). I tend to buy from hog dog hunters because they will not hesitate to cull a dog or human aggressive pit and breed from the ones that are good with people/dogs. They're not always registered but I tend to try to buy registered dogs from either UKC or ADBA bloodlines due to the fact you can pretty much figure out what bloodlines they came from (as long as the breeder was honest about their dogs). I did buy one that was both AKC and UKC registered and she was an excellent dog. As for ADBA registered pits, you DO have to do your research because they tend to be somewhat dog aggressive and it's genetics. As for UKC, I am less worried about dog aggressiveness because UKC tends to be more dog show oriented.


Great point and wonderful post. 
Lots of IFs though as you pointed out.
Excellent breeding for one 
As you and I know anyone with an unspayed female and a will male can make a litter that will sell to the unsuspecting or worse yet supecting public.
That is the problem. And will continue to be the problem until a protection breed such as Pit Bulls are regesterd and licensed. 

It's not a perfect breed world.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

******* said:


> How about this non-pit bull dog that attacked "out of nowhere"?


Is this really a good example? The dog was known to have a "disorder" and has attacked on several occasions.



> My brother has a neutered male St. Bernard that has been diagnosed with this disorder by a trainer. He is 5 years old and on 5 different occasions has, seemingly unprovoked, gone after people. The last one was just recently and he broke his runner and ran across the highway and attacked a lady that I know. This was definitely unprovoked and he bit her elbow. Not badly, but he bruised her back from slamming into her after the bite. His intent was to hurt her and my brother is doing the right thing and having him put down on Monday but I need to know if this is a true physiological/mental problem or someones own made up diagnosis.


The issue is with Pitbulls, is that they can be 100% gentle, loving dog. Out of the blue (in many cases), they turn ugly very quickly with very devastating results.



******* said:


> That said, the stats on "pit attacks" are more inaccurate than our government's economic reports. Some of them are gleaned from newspaper articles, others from hospital reports. Often the fact that a dog attacked makes it a pit bull, regardless of the actual breed of the dog. It could have (and has on a few occasions) been something like a golden retriever. Banning certain breeds or even dogs of certain appearances is going to do nothing to improve the overall stability and safety of dogs you might come into contact with.


You say the attack stats are innaccurate, but you are only backing it up with your opinion.




******* said:


> If you don't like or trust a specific kind of dog, don't get one. If you feel that the very existence of these dogs is a risk then you need to evaluate each and every facet of your life. Personally I'd rather have less government intrusion in my life. That includes being told what kind of dog I'm allowed to own.


Not problem there. It's other people's pitbulls, that are causing concern.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

TedH71 said:


> I always ask people who are spouting stuff about pit bulls if they've EVER raised or bred or trained pit bulls. They usually haven't. I point out that if they haven't then they have NO right to spout out comments they can't back up. I tell them come talk to me AFTER you've raised a pit pup from excellent bloodlines (there are tons out there but you do have to do your research and don't buy from a byb breeder). I tend to buy from hog dog hunters because they will not hesitate to cull a dog or human aggressive pit and breed from the ones that are good with people/dogs. They're not always registered but I tend to try to buy registered dogs from either UKC or ADBA bloodlines due to the fact you can pretty much figure out what bloodlines they came from (as long as the breeder was honest about their dogs). I did buy one that was both AKC and UKC registered and she was an excellent dog. As for ADBA registered pits, you DO have to do your research because they tend to be somewhat dog aggressive and it's genetics. As for UKC, I am less worried about dog aggressiveness because UKC tends to be more dog show oriented.


Ok.

So Pitbulls are all right, if they come from excellent bloodlines, have exstensive training, to protect them to going after animals, strangers, children and old ladies. Also, don't to forget that they need to be constantly monitored whenever they are around strangers and kept in secure areas, that they can't accidentally escape.

Unfortunately, this is the real world. If the dogs are "mixed" or "culls", or whatever, they are still in our neighborhoods.

No one argures that these dogs cannot be intellegent, gentle, loving and loyal. The OP was about a gentle family pit, out of nowhere, savagly attacks and nearly kills a little girl. Sure, we don't have all the facts on this story, but we do have the results and they were not good.

According to some, all dog breeds savagely attack and kill humans, but due to media bias, or other reasons, only Pitbulls get get the news footage. Not sure why the media would skip ANY horror story.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

plowjockey said:


> That's probably because Dobermans are not known, for unexpectantly grabbing a human by the neck, not releasing their grip and violently shaking or biting, until the victim is dead.


You must be youngster if you don't remember all the hype and hysteria surrounding Dobermans in the 60-70's. And German Sheperds, St. Benards, Nuffies, Rotties... etc, etc...

Every 10-20 years a different breed becomes the focus of hype and hysteria.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

tallpines said:


> It happened in our area this past weekend.
> 
> "Very Sweet" Pit attacked his own owner severely injuring her.
> 
> http://www.leadertelegram.com/local_news/story/article_43472bd1-f42a-556a-8b54-c35e37e25551.html


Hype and hysteria enter your world much?

That very short story said only that it was a "pit bull type" dog - so for all you know it could have been a lab with a blocky head. And since there were ZERO details reported, it is impossible for you or any other reader to know what happened other than a dog, that may or may not have had a drop of pit blood in its veins, bit it's owner.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Plowjockey,

Have you had a pit bull in the past? Have you raised one from a puppy that was not scatterbred? Have you trained one before? The media is very biased when it comes to reporting dog attacks..I would say 95% of the people in the world would be hard pressed to identify a pit bull AS a pit bull. You're repeating what you've heard from other people and media. It's fine if you report what you have actually experienced. If not, then don't spout things you know nothing about. Do you know what the words mean? Colby? Hammond? Etc....


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Wags said:


> You must be youngster if you don't remember all the hype and hysteria surrounding Dobermans in the 60-70's. And German Sheperds, St. Benards, Nuffies, Rotties... etc, etc...
> 
> Every 10-20 years a different breed becomes the focus of hype and hysteria.


I'm not that young, but...

I seem to remember around that time, that at least Dobs and Rots, sorta became the "in your face" (even though they did not use this term at the time ; ) ), breed to own. These breeds actually become more popular, because they were considered "dangerous", as well as fashionable. More of these dogs around, may have contributed to increased attack incidents.

Sometimes I wonder if the Pitbull is not going through the same fate.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

TedH71 said:


> Plowjockey,
> 
> Have you had a pit bull in the past? Have you raised one from a puppy that was not scatterbred? Have you trained one before? The media is very biased when it comes to reporting dog attacks..I would say 95% of the people in the world would be hard pressed to identify a pit bull AS a pit bull. You're repeating what you've heard from other people and media. It's fine if you report what you have actually experienced. If not, then don't spout things you know nothing about. Do you know what the words mean? Colby? Hammond? Etc....


Sorry, I missed somewhere, that your opinion is the only one allowed.

I have personally seen a pitbull break a thick chain, to attack a horse. Don't know if it was a "purebred", but I know it wasn't a yorkie.

Since you are an "expert", you can personally attest, that any purebred pitbull, will NEVER attack, maul or kill a human?

If the media reports a "pit bull type" dog attack, so what? If it's mix, does it really matter? Or, are you saying that it was actually a labrador retriever, that ripped out an old lady's throat, but the biased media is intentionally reporting it as a pitbull.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

For my own experiences with the pit bull breed, no, I have not seen a pit bull that was raised properly and trained properly attack a human. Vast majority of the pit bull attacks are of dogs that may have questionable parentage or lack of training. Anything that has pit bull blood in it and isn't pure pit tends not to be trustworthy around strange people especially if the other breeds that are mixed into the mix is a breed that has guardian instincts. If a person fights pit bulls for fun, most of the time they do not care how much percentage of the pit bull is pure pit..all they care about is if the dog will fight and tough it out without quitting. Also a lot of people who get pit bulls buy into the media hype and then chain the poor 8 week old puppy out back with NO interaction or training of any type. That would make ANY dog snap of ANY breed. What the media does not report is how much percent of those so-called pit bulls are purebred or registered? The media does not want to take the time to do their proper reporting..they just want to make a sale by reporting it as a pit bull type or pit bull attack without confirming it. I promise you that there are some well-known pit bull bloodlines that have had mastiff crossed into it and the breeders were busted for it. Any pit bull that is over 55 lbs is not pure pit as a general rule. There were some bloodlines especially the western U.S. bloodlines that got as big as 70 lbs but it's rare. If it's over 55 lbs at maturity, I immediately consider it as a crossbred with something in the background..most likely mastiff. If the dog is a female and over 45 lbs..it may be crossbred as well. Females run on the small side but Americans have a love affair with things that are big so Americans tend to try to breed bigger and bigger dogs.

I have a few friends who train guard dogs/attack dogs for a living and they have reported every time they get a dog that is a pure pit, they often have a hard time getting the dog to take biting people seriously. The dog tends to think of it as a game and in many cases, they will bite people gently but they know fully well when they're not biting into a human and will treat a rope or an attack sleeve like it was not a human. Those trainers have had far more success with making American Bulldogs be guard/attack dogs.

What I did with my dogs is what those dogs do:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Catch_Dogs_(boar_hunting).gif

therefore I never had a problem with my catch dogs being human or dog aggressive. I have HOWEVER seen other hog hunters have dog aggressive catch dogs. I told them to cull their dogs and that I would never buy a pup from them or hunt with them. There have been some people whose pit bull decided he was going to be dog aggressive that day...some of them were cured of this and some were culled after the training period showed that they wouldn't stop. It is of my opinion that when a pit bull is exposed to what is the natural instincts and be re-directed towards appropriate venues, then that dog is happy. In some cases, it is dog fighting because it is genetic in quite a few bloodlines, in old bloodlines, it's hog catching that works for them.

Also people who fight pit bulls frequently have dogs stolen from them. WOW! If the pit bull was so human aggressive, why didn't the dog bite the stranger stealing it? Even those street dog fighters know that a pure pit will NOT bite people. It's very easy, trust me. A bit of a hot dog in your hand and the pit bull is more than willing to go with you after you give the dog some meat.

You seem to think that my opinion is the only one out there. Not true. I am just making people think twice before posting utter crap because they have NOT had pit bulls or raised them. Simple enough topic, right? Speak what you know something PERSONALLY about not what you've HEARD about. As for your comment about the pit bull breaking a chain to get to a horse, that pit bull is showing he has a high prey drive and would make an excellent catch dog if the dog wasn't dog aggressive. I would take that dog anytime on a hog hunt. I have seen many hunting dogs that weren't pit bulls break their chains to go work a hog in a bay pen so your case isn't unique in the hog hunting world. Chains have a way of wearing out eventually on any dog breed.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

I have not raised a Pit Bull, or owned one, and I never will. I have been attacked and due to my father's advice, covered my throat with my arm, kicked him in the head with every bit of power my little 10 YR OLD LEG could deliver (I was little, but had strong legs, Praise God!). That sent him flying back, when he lunged forward again, like my father warned me vicious dogs in attack mode do (especially as he sized me up for an easy kill), I didn't run, but prepared to deliver another kick, with one arm securely covering my throat. That is when the owner came out and stopped it. I could have been killed. I knew this. Now, imagine that Pit Bull was just a little dog. The potential would have decreased exponentially. 

My issue does have something to do with the breed. This is an incredibly powerful dog with the ability to kill, that can be triggered by...? Sure other breeds do bite, attack, and can kill also. Since this thread is specifically about Pit Bulls, the posts naturally are going to be primarily focusing on that breed. My mention of trigger has a lot to do with how these dogs are raised. Unfortunately, most are raised to be aggressive. I have met very nice Pits and also vicious ones. I don't trust either and have great respect for the wild nature that exists in all animals. We can raise, train, and domesticate, but that nature is within them. Owning dogs like this carry great responsibility and also liability. Biggest problem is that there is indeed an increase of people buying Pit Bulls (or what are terms as mutts, not really Pits, but with that "look") only due to their aggressive abilities. Then, they are raised to be aggressive, which is not the fault of the poor dog, being set up to be eventually destroyed. 

There is a dog in our neighborhood, a mutt of some kind, as it isn't real obvious what it is. He only weighs about 40#s, so not a big one. This dog chases cars, is highly aggressive, took an immediate dislike to DH (yet, likes me), and was allowed to run free by his owners. They witnessed their dog acting aggressively towards DH, too (?!). This dog went nuts every time he saw DH or his car, once he saw me driving, realized it was me, and calmed right down (?). DH was on his motorcycle and the dog went berserk, chasing him, trying to bite his leg. A swift kick, but that didn't stop this dog, who continued to chase him. When DH got home, our own dog, Sam, sent this dog on his way. Yes, the owners knew about all this aggressive behavior, were irresponsible, and are now paying the price. They were recently presented a bill for almost $300 and a photograph of their dog with a dead chicken in his mouth. The dog took out over 18 chickens. He is now on a rope, that he could bite through, and I expect he will. If this dog was a Pit and was acting like this? Our dog, Sam, would be dead, sacrificing himself to protect DH and our chickens (he came down to our property with the intent to kill our chickens, too).

I also agree, going back to "triggers," and identified one in our own sweet Sam (we have had him 1.5 yrs and he has been a great dog). If you speak to Sam sternly, due to him doing a no-no, he submits readily. If you do the same thing and have a stick or something else in your hand, he goes berserk, but what I would term a controlled vicious response. This is a Lab/Chesapeake/?, 7 yrs old, who was beaten by his former owner's husband. I was carrying a "level" back to the shop, saw Sam had spread around some compost out of the bucket (again), called him over to me in a somewhat stern tone, to show him, and he ran from me (?). I followed him to the front of the shop and spoke sternly to him, reached down for the collar, to lead him to the backyard. That level was still in my left hand. He became vicious, grabbed my right arm in his jaws, but not piercing the skin. I knew I had to act fast, so down came the level on his butt. He let go, and I immediately straightened up and told him NO. There he was growling, baring his teeth, and in a threatening stance. That is when DH came running out, quickly overpowered Sam, held him securely, spoke to him and calmed him down. I figured it all out later that it was the LEVEL in my hand that set him off. I never had hit him before and had no intention of that. He didn't know that, but remembered being beaten by his owner's husband. That was a one-time incident. Sam doesn't bite, plays very well with other dogs, and seems be a pretty mellow guy. That all changes when he goes into protection mode. The first time I saw this, I was truly shocked at the change in him. Dogs twice his size? He doesn't hesitate if he is protecting us or our chickens. He is a great watchdog. When people drive in, they are never scared of petting Sam, but if they made the wrong move (to hit him or turn into a threat against us), they would have already misjudged him. As a very responsible dog owner, we take him on walks on a leash, and after we identified this trigger? We aren't allowing children to play with him and are warning adults who are here. His reaction to me that day? Never repeated. He can still be reprimanded and acts normally. Now, imagine, if you will. What if he was a Pit Bull, think I could have gotten my arm out of his jaws unscathed? Just think, we have had him for 1.5 years, just love the heck out of him, feed him much better than his first family did, and he has put on 15#s (mostly muscle). Had he not been obviously abused, and if I didn't feel we could be responsible for him, and insure he doesn't hurt anyone? He would be put down.

So, right here, I readily agree that all dog breeds have potential for being dangerous. It is the ability of the dog, that dictates its ability to be lethal. That six week old baby's death, what a tragedy. I don't think babies or small children should be left alone with dogs or cats. That said, all other situations should be risk-based on the dog and the older children. It does help to teach children about dogs, to respect them, and recognize that potential nature in them all.

I am among those who feel certain breeds, such as Pit Bulls, with the potential for tragedy (Who can debate how powerful and lethal they can be? This having nothing to do with disposition), should require training, licensing, and registration. We should have the right to choose the breeds we want. I am not debating that, at all. With taking on that responsibility, we are also assuming the risks for any dog we own.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

The ironic thing is pit bulls were brought into America and did pretty good until the 1970's when the general public learned about them and ruined the breed. I would say that was a pretty good run. The sad thing is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier (looks like a tiny pit bull) is the most common dog in England and called the ultimate baby sitter and people are afraid of it here because they think it's a pit.


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## WindowOrMirror (Jan 10, 2005)

First, LoriChristie, you are far more eloquent than I... well said!

Pit Bulls were bred to fight, and are trained to do so. They are selected and bred - by many people - for the more aggressive tendencies. To have one near you is taking your life and the life of your loved ones into your hands. To say they are maligned by the press and vilified in the media and are truly peaceful... almost unbelievable. I suppose you also believe that Ahmenijad means well, that the Palestinians are not violent, and that global warming exists?

Come on.

R

P.S. Are there peaceful ones? Yes. But the odds are so against you that it is irresponsible to expose your loved ones to the animal. You are totally free to do it, but don't complain that it was 'peaceful' and that it is 'innocent' and that you 'couldn't see it coming' if something horrific happens.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Pitbull puppies! 

How cute!

http://www.newsok.com/article/3465480?searched=dogs&custom_click=search



Still, cats are far more evil. There's a reason that God won't let them get much bigger than 15 pounds or so.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Oggie said:


> Pitbull puppies!
> 
> How cute!
> 
> ...


article says they were mixes - why doesn't anyone every wonder about what they were mixed with. Maybe its the other gene pool that is at fault?


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Wags said:


> article says they were mixes - *why doesn't anyone every wonder about what they were mixed with*. Maybe its the other gene pool that is at fault?


When you are being savagely attacked by a dog, what difference does it make?


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

TedH71 said:


> For my own experiences with the pit bull breed, no, I have not seen a pit bull that was raised properly and trained properly attack a human. Vast majority of the pit bull attacks are of dogs that may have questionable parentage or lack of training. Anything that has pit bull blood in it and isn't pure pit tends not to be trustworthy around strange people especially if the other breeds that are mixed into the mix is a breed that has guardian instincts. If a person fights pit bulls for fun, most of the time they do not care how much percentage of the pit bull is pure pit..all they care about is if the dog will fight and tough it out without quitting. Also a lot of people who get pit bulls buy into the media hype and then chain the poor 8 week old puppy out back with NO interaction or training of any type. That would make ANY dog snap of ANY breed. What the media does not report is how much percent of those so-called pit bulls are purebred or registered? The media does not want to take the time to do their proper reporting..they just want to make a sale by reporting it as a pit bull type or pit bull attack without confirming it. I promise you that there are some well-known pit bull bloodlines that have had mastiff crossed into it and the breeders were busted for it. Any pit bull that is over 55 lbs is not pure pit as a general rule. There were some bloodlines especially the western U.S. bloodlines that got as big as 70 lbs but it's rare. If it's over 55 lbs at maturity, I immediately consider it as a crossbred with something in the background..most likely mastiff. If the dog is a female and over 45 lbs..it may be crossbred as well. Females run on the small side but Americans have a love affair with things that are big so Americans tend to try to breed bigger and bigger dogs.


Your post explains exactly Pitbulls are a major problem in the U.S.- Mixed breeding. You state that if the pits are not carefully purebred, there will likely be problems.

Unfortunately in the U.S., mixed breeding between all dogs is quite common, either intentionally, or accidentally. There are mutts everywhere. Mutts make some of the best dogs around, and people love them. Often they can gain the good traits of the purebreds and avoid some of the negative health problems, their purebred ancstors. Sure, they can gain negative traits. too.

Apparently, it sound's like pits have a more difficult time functioning when they are not pure, are more agressive and prone to attack, as you stated.

That being the case, should they be prohibited from the general public and controled only by certified breeders? If that many of these dogs are indeed mixed, then we really do have many ticking timebombs out there?



TedH71 said:


> You seem to think that my opinion is the only one out there. Not true. I am just making people think twice before posting utter crap because they have NOT had pit bulls or raised them. Simple enough topic, right? Speak what you know something PERSONALLY about not what you've HEARD about. *As for your comment about the pit bull breaking a chain to get to a horse, that pit bull is showing he has a high prey drive and would make an excellent catch dog if the dog wasn't dog aggressive. I would take that dog anytime on a hog hunt. I have seen many hunting dogs that weren't pit bulls break their chains to go work a hog in a bay pen so your case isn't unique in the hog hunting world.* Chains have a way of wearing out eventually on any dog breed.


FWIW, the horse had a mounted Sheriffs Deputy, that was thrown when the pit attacked. The horse went panic and took off galloping though crowds of people attending an auto race. Another mounted Deputy raced alongside and clubbed the pit repeatedly, for nearly 1/4 mile, while the dog continued to lunged at the horse's neck.

You say this is a desirable trait for a purebred pitbull, engaged in pig-sticking, but what about a pure pit (as they are supposed to be), that becomes a family pet? When will the "prey drive" come out?


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

The article said the dogs were in a pack. Once dogs are in a pack, the pack mentality comes into play no matter what breed. A really dominant person can handle a pack like that. The woman wasn't dominant or the owners of the dogs therefore she was not considered an alpha. Also when a pit is crossed into another breed, the other breed's mentality and breed tendencies tend to mesh with the pit bull tendencies therefore making the dog be likely to be human/dog aggressive. Not kidding. That's why I have been seeing pit bull/rottweiler or pit bull/german shepherd mixes a lot in the newspapers for cheap. The best flyball dogs are now pit bull crossed with border collies because the pit bull puts in the extra muscle and mentality to win at all costs into the border collie's ability to herd or fetch. The cutest crosses that I've seen are chihuahua/pit bull or dachshund/pit bull crosses. They look like little dogs on steroids!

My ex girlfriend had the world's meanest dog. Had cancer then had to have his leg amputated and he still was mean to the day he died. He attacked children who thought he was a nice dog due to his breed. What breed was he? A golden retriever of all things! That dog's first reaction when he met me was to attempt to be dominant and that failed, his next action was to attempt to bite me. He was then flipped on his back and told in uncertain terms by my pit bull that it was not acceptable. He listened to the puppy who was only 4 months old! That puppy became an adult dog who got along with people and dogs. She died of poisoning due to an idiot neighbor who thought her barking meant she was going to break through the chain link 6 foot tall fence when in reality she was barking to let ME know that the stranger was on the other side of the fence due to my deafness. That neighbor was taken to court where she lost and had to pay a lot of money to the teenager who owned her at the time (I had to relocate to a different town for a job and sold her to a high school senior as a graduation present). I went to court to testify.


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## Home Harvest (Oct 10, 2006)

I came into this discussion late, but as I am into dogs I read through the entire thread. I'm shocked that it covers 3 pages. Very repetitive arguments, and not really going anywhere. Neither camp is going to sway the other. 

What I get from this thread...some people like pit bulls, some people don't. What else is new. How about we all move on? Agree to disagree?


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Home Harvest said:


> I came into this discussion late, but as I am into dogs I read through the entire thread. I'm shocked that it covers 3 pages. Very repetitive arguments, and not really going anywhere. Neither camp is going to sway the other.
> 
> What I get from this thread...some people like pit bulls, some people don't. What else is new. How about we all move on? Agree to disagree?


But I haven't added my 2 cents worth yet!


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

I have a completely different view, Home Harvest. What I gleaned from all that I read was valuable information from both sides. What I learned, I won't hesitate to pass on. It has also completely reinforced my view that one has to have great respect for the wild nature existing in all animals, despite how much we think we can domesticate it out of them. The very mention of "pack mentality," is a great example of this. All dogs recognize Alpha in other dogs and also in people. That is not to say dogs consider people other dogs, but they do recognize Alpha people. Regardless of my size, I am one of those people and dogs recognize it. This probably occurred due to my father's advice to me, training me in multiple ways to keep myself save (from all creatures and the animals violent people can become). It was also due to my experience defending myself from a vicious dog. You show fear to an animal, and the animal knows this. 

There is enough information given by very sharp people here to save someone's life. Some of the posts were highly informative about the general topic of dogs and their behavior, training, breeding, etc... It didn't matter which side they were on, to me. 

For that, I greatly appreciate all the OP and all everyone who posted on here. Moving on is up to the volition of those debating. Since this thread is about one topic, which has expanded, not sure what it would "move on" to, except to completely hault. None of us even need to read this thread if we don't want to.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Home Harvest said:


> I came into this discussion late, but as I am into dogs I read through the entire thread. I'm shocked that it covers 3 pages. Very repetitive arguments, and not really going anywhere. Neither camp is going to sway the other.
> 
> *What I get from this thread...some people like pit bulls, some people don't. What else is new. How about we all move on? Agree to disagree*?


I chimed in plenty on this thread and actually, I don't dislike Pitbulls at all. IMO, they look like they can be wonderful dogs and their owners/followers, certainly make valid points, as to such.

My main concern is if and when very powerful dogs, like Pitbulls or Pitbull mixes and to a lesser extent, Rots, Presa Canario, etc, happen to no longer behave as nice dogs. 

Their damage to humans and other animals can be devastating, much more than most other dog breeds.

But I will always agree to disagree.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I'd never been around a pit bull till our horse trainer was left with her daughter's pit bull puppy when she moved out. This dog is one of the sweetest dogs I've ever been around and she has the most expressive face I've ever seen. She absolutely adores my 15 year old daughter. 
But it is scary to think how much damage those powerful jaws backed up by that incredibly muscular body could do if they wanted.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

lorichristie said:


> I have a completely different view, Home Harvest. What I gleaned from all that I read was valuable information from both sides. What I learned, I won't hesitate to pass on. It has also completely reinforced my view that one has to have great respect for the wild nature existing in all animals, despite how much we think we can domesticate it out of them. The very mention of "pack mentality," is a great example of this. All dogs recognize Alpha in other dogs and also in people. That is not to say dogs consider people other dogs, but they do recognize Alpha people. Regardless of my size, I am one of those people and dogs recognize it. This probably occurred due to my father's advice to me, training me in multiple ways to keep myself save (from all creatures and the animals violent people can become). It was also due to my experience defending myself from a vicious dog. You show fear to an animal, and the animal knows this.
> 
> There is enough information given by very sharp people here to save someone's life. Some of the posts were highly informative about the general topic of dogs and their behavior, training, breeding, etc... It didn't matter which side they were on, to me.
> 
> For that, I greatly appreciate all the OP and all everyone who posted on here. Moving on is up to the volition of those debating. Since this thread is about one topic, which has expanded, not sure what it would "move on" to, except to completely hault. None of us even need to read this thread if we don't want to.


By selective breeding the pit bull is quite a bit different than other breeds. There is no pack mentality. They were bred for combat and see other dogs as a challenge rather than a pack. You will be taking a chance if you allow a pit bull to run free with other pit bulls or any other breed. There is no alpha dogs either. All pit bulls think they are alpha, there is no other way. They are not trained to fight, it is an inborn trait. Many cannot be allowed to see another dog. Even breeding can be a problem as males will fight females just the same as another male. The females are the same. It doesn't matter if you do not show fear or not if you are attacked by a pit bull. If you are like the majority of people you cannot do much damage to the dog and he will like it much more if you try to fight back.
One of the secrets of dog showing in UKC is to stare at another dog. Try to stare him down. Pick the dog that is the most competition to you. He will accept the challenge. Since the UKC does not want them to show that much aggression in the show ring, it is a good chance that dog will be asked to leave the ring.

One of the biggest dangers of pit bulls is people think they can treat them much like other breeds. That is not the truth. The traits that make them the best fighting dog in the world also makes them the most dangerous to those who do not know the breed.
Pit bulls were not just bred for combat with other dogs. They have been matched against almost every kind of animal including men. Lioins, tigers, bears, bulls, wolfs, badgers, monkeys, bobcats, almost anything you can imagine. 

In my opinion the pit bull is the greatest dog ever bred. It is also the most dangerous. As most pit bull owners know, their dog can do anything other dogs can then whip the other dog. They are not for the average dog owner, not right for a pet, should never be let roam free, should be considered dangerous if you encounter one, and never challenged.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Pancho- Thanks for all the information! I think it is very important we understand this breed as there are so many, especially mixed with all kinds of other breeds. I understand the Pit seeing itself as an Alpha, but find it hard to believe it doesn't size up what it is going to attack and will do so for no reason. There have been plenty of tragedies that back this up. No matter if the attack wasn't close to being justified, there were identified reasons in most cases. In some, it made no sense at all. If the dog doesn't recognize a person as an Alpha, then it would never submit, is this correct? Would not the dog have to be able to submit to a trainer? Also, why did a Pit Bull, sure looked like an amazing specimen to me, submit to a Black German Shephard (he is 120#s and the biggest one I have ever seen, who is owned by a good friend of mine)? 

The Pit who attacked me, could size me up easily. He wasn't challenged, either. I was a small boned, slight young girl of ten years old. I didn't look like I could put up a fight at all. What he got when he lunged was the hardest kick I could deliver in his face, which actually sent him reeling backward. I was deceptively strong, upper body, and had powerful little legs. I was always under estimated. What was important about the way I reacted? I covered my throat with my arm at the same time. Had he got past my kick, I KNEW he was going for my throat. The owner came out and stopped him. Now how did that owner have the power to stop this vicious dog, if the dog didn't recognize the owner as the Alpha between them, and submit to him? I don't know the answer and would like to understand. Because if what you wrote is literally true, I'd be dead right now, and the dog would have taken out his owner, who tried to save me. That happened in the early 70s.

I have so much respect for wild nature that exists in all animals, that I have chosen to be very careful about the type of dog I own. Even the one we have, carries with him, a risk to potentially harm others. Now, that we know his trigger, we are respecting the potential he has. That said, we know we have to be responsible (i.e. leash, limits, around children, etc...).

Knowing, first hand, what it is like to be in fear of my life? The look in their eyes when they attack, pretty scary! I know I couldn't own a Pit Bull or ever have a dog with Pit in him. I have far too much respect for the power that breed possesses. I'd never, myself, ever think I could have one as a pet and control him. I am speaking only for me.


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## 36376 (Jan 24, 2009)

I guess we should always remember that no matter what breed the animal is , it is still an animal and there is always a danger of an attack. Period. That's the premise I always go by. I have to constantly remind my son that the dog loves him but she can always misinterpret his actions and react badly. I never believe "Oh he's harmless! He wouldn't hurt a flea!" Respect the teeth!!!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

lorichristie said:


> Pancho- Thanks for all the information! I think it is very important we understand this breed as there are so many, especially mixed with all kinds of other breeds. I understand the Pit seeing itself as an Alpha, but find it hard to believe it doesn't size up what it is going to attack and will do so for no reason. There have been plenty of tragedies that back this up. No matter if the attack wasn't close to being justified, there were identified reasons in most cases. In some, it made no sense at all. If the dog doesn't recognize a person as an Alpha, then it would never submit, is this correct? Would not the dog have to be able to submit to a trainer? Also, why did a Pit Bull, sure looked like an amazing specimen to me, submit to a Black German Shephard (he is 120#s and the biggest one I have ever seen, who is owned by a good friend of mine)?
> 
> The Pit who attacked me, could size me up easily. He wasn't challenged, either. I was a small boned, slight young girl of ten years old. I didn't look like I could put up a fight at all. What he got when he lunged was the hardest kick I could deliver in his face, which actually sent him reeling backward. I was deceptively strong, upper body, and had powerful little legs. I was always under estimated. What was important about the way I reacted? I covered my throat with my arm at the same time. Had he got past my kick, I KNEW he was going for my throat. The owner came out and stopped him. Now how did that owner have the power to stop this vicious dog, if the dog didn't recognize the owner as the Alpha between them, and submit to him? I don't know the answer and would like to understand. Because if what you wrote is literally true, I'd be dead right now, and the dog would have taken out his owner, who tried to save me. That happened in the early 70s.
> 
> ...


The pit bull was bred to attack. Size does not make any difference at all. They may attack the house cat with the same aggressiveness as they will a bull. They were bred to dominate or die trying. Most pit bulls will attack a larger animal even more often than a smaller one. The larger it is the more challenging it is and the pit bull accepts all challenges.
They do not look at a person as alpha. They can be trained very easily. They do it more out of love for their owner. Most are very loyal but mainly one person dogs.
As an example, we used to obedience train a few of our dogs. I even put on demonstrations with a few. They were trained on voice signals, hand signals, and whistle signals. The one thing none of them were ever good at was the down stay. They would stay but never would lay down. To them that would be submitting to a person and as much as they cared for the person they would not do that. 

Many pit bulls can be called of the attack, especially if it happens before they really get into it. No matter how aggressive they attack they are always sure of what they are doing. Back in the days when they matched dogs it wasn't unusual for the handeler to point out the areas he wanted his dog to attack on the other dog. Even in the middle of battle the dog listened to his owner. Even when separating two fighting pit bulls there isn't that much chance you will get bitten. They know what they are going to bite, they do not bite out of fear or pain. Many times I have broken up a fight by stepping into the middle of the fight.
Your kick, no matter how hard, did not have any effect on the dog. In the past I have seen grown men armed with a bat try to stop a pit bull. At one time I owned one that would take a bat away from an attacker without hurting him. For the dog it was fun. He was fast enough that usually he was never touched.

I have been on the recieving end of a couple of attacks. These were not dog bites, they attacked with the intent to kill. They did have a reason but their attack was so sudden and fast that once I was taken completely off my feet by a 45lb dog. I was very lucky and I knew what to do. I am 5'11" and 210lbs. 
Not every attack by a pit bull is to that extent. Sometimes they do not attack to kill. Sometimes it is just to dominate. When their prey stops fighting they will, sometimes, let it go. Some do not even consider other breeds of dogs a challenge. They may be gentle with other breeds but become crazy with just seeing another pit bull.

It is very hard to try to explain the pit bull to a person who doesn't know the breed. Some things they do not believe. Some things they already have in their mind. Most judge the pit bull by the dogs they have been associated with before. People who have experience with the breed will say comparing the pit bull to other dogs is like comparing other dogs to a house cat.

Even though I think the pit bull is the greatest dog ever I will not own one now. Just my opinion but there is little reason to own one nowdays. The quality is low. The dangers are high. They require more time and training than other dogs. The equipment, fencing, and housing is higher than other breeds. There is little benefit in having one. 
They do make the absolute best personal protection dog. But I don't need that type of protection nowdays.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Some people like to focus on just one aspect of the breed, but they are a very intelligent and multifaceted dog. And their history in this country is more than just them being used for dog fighting.

Some of the top rated Search and Rescue Dogs are Pit Bulls.
http://www.forpitssake.org/frame.html

Their high pain tolerance also makes them great therapy dogs, especially around people with limited mobility that can't really pet gently. Another reason they make great therapy dog is their temperament. 

The American Temperament Test Society, Inc. (ATTS) is a national not-for-profit organization for the promotion of uniform temperament evaluation of purebred and spayed/neutered mixed-breed dogs. They began testing and keeping stats in 1977.

85.3% of Pit Bulls taking this pass/fail test since 1977 have passed. 
Akita 74.2%
Australian Shepherd 81.0%
Beagle 81.0%
Collie 79.4%
Doberman 77.4%
German Shepherd 83.7%
Golden Retriever 84.6%
Rottweiler 83.0%


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

If this thread is still going on in July, I'm going to light some people up...otherwise I'll stay quiet or risk getting banned...This is almost painful.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

I know of some pit bulls who were used to fighting in a pit but were "cold" to dogs out of the pit because they had no interest in fighting out of the pit and were trained to fight ONLY in the pit. Means they were smart enough to differentiate between the pit and out of the pit behaviors.

Personally I want to get one for weight pulling and back into hog hunting but will have to be careful about which bloodlines to go with for that. I have considered Staffordshire Bull terriers but they're smaller sized and CAN be dog aggressive. If I was to get back into pit bulls, I will have to pay $800 or up for a stable dog from pure bloodlines from reputable breeders. My wife will be ----ed if I do that since she's into rescuing shelter dogs. Nothing wrong with that but if you need a dog for hunting or catching, you have to buy from a breeder for that reason and have parents of the dog be able to do the work or are currently working for a living.

What people aren't aware of is that some other mastiff breeds have some pit bull in them but not always proveable. Boston terrier is one of them...that's why you'll run across a dog aggressive boston terrier once in a while..the pit bull blood ran stronger in that dog. Any breed that has mastiff in them has a tiny bit in them somewhere...all of them eventually trace back to one single source of mastiff lineage somewhere.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

It is usually impossible to change a person's mind after they have already made it up.

One fact that there is no argument about. Every single pit bull in the U.S. today came from fighting pit dogs. Not a single dog was imported for any other purpose. If there is anyone who thinks different I sure would appreciate if they could give a dog's name and the importer.
Those imported were well known. There wasn't that many and just about every one was a pit champion.

Has the pit bull been used for other things? Sure.
Can the pit bull be trained for other things? Sure.
Can the pit bull excell in other things? Sure.

Why was the breed developed? For a combat dog
Why was the breed imported to the U.S.? For a combat dog.
What does the breed do better than any other breed? Fight

Is it possible to peel an apple with a chainsaw? Sure
Is that why the chainsaw was invented? No
Is that the common use of a chainsaw? No

The right tool for the job. Be it chainsaw or pit bull, choose carefully.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

i agree w/ much of what pancho says about the breed EXCEPT, in my personal experience the dogs do differentiate between people & dogs and body language they would take as a challenge from another dog is not taken as a challenge from a person. the dogs i handled were absolutely not a threat to people and the dogman that owned them kept a pair of dobermans to make sure they didn't get stolen.
i personally don't think it was just the pet breeding as cold dogs & even some hot ones were kept as pets all along. plenty of sporting gentlemen matched the same dog that slept at the foot of their bed & pulled their childrens wagon.
what went wrong in my opinion, is the smear campaign the HSUS & others used to ban pit contests in the 70s. this attracted the attention of a scumbag type of person that
1 didn't love dogs or the breed
2 wanted to match ONLY because it was illegal
3 no dogman had any interest in dealing w/ these scumbags and teaching them the right way to raise, train & breed
so not having anyone decent to mentor them they went by the BS put out by the HSUS crowd and intentionally bred unstable, erratically aggressive weak hearted POS that real dogmen would have culled back in the day and sold them to any like minded weenus w/ a handful of cash. then all the hangers on bought them too (and bred them). so thousands of crapbred dogs flooded the country and tons of nimrods that can't let go of the concept that all dogs are not the same started getting them and preaching that if you just raise them right they'll ignore their genes & won't attack another dog or anything else. 
despite all of this dumb @$$ity, the original breeders did their job so well that even though "pit bulls" are one of the 5 most popular dogs (not counting the toy breeds), none of the breeds considered pit bulls has ever ranked higher than 17 on the overall bite list. NO OTHER BREED has this large of a difference between where they rank in population & where they rank in total bites. so yes most of the old dogmen culled human aggression BECAUSE they knew the breed & it's ability to keep fighting no matter what.

that said Wags, they were never widely used as "farm dogs," that is BS made up by the anyone can own a pit bulldog crowd. in fact that brings up a question, what is a farm dog? i know what a collie, a heeler, a head dog, a cur dog, a terrier, a feist, a sheepdog, a cowdog and an LGD are, but i still don't know what an "all around farm dog" is. what is being done is willful confusing of the farmer/butcher bulldog & the pit bulldog.

plowjockey
i have personally witnessed media misidentification. when i lived in Amarillo TX a border collie on the next block attacked a guy pretty good. on the news that night they IDed it as a pit bull, showed less than a full second of video of the actual dog and then showed about 30 seconds of file footage of "pit bulls."
up until about 04 or 05 the CDC website had clear stats on dog bites & fatalities. one of their STATED keys to accuracy was to NOT ACCEPT media ID. somewhere around 04 or 05 they took down that information and replaced it w/ a report from two of their staff. the report (which to my knowledge is still up) did accept media ID and when submitted to peer review was torn to pieces for being scientifically INVALID and inaccurate due to obviously slanted methodology in gathering stats.
so yeah the media (all types including newspapers) will completely ignore the truth in favor of money making hype.
and i can remember the doberman hype of the 70s. FTR the airedale went through the same thing between world wars and calls went out in many communities to ban them as inherently dangerous dogs. they were called things like "the king of terrors" (a take off on the king of terriers line).
also FTR, ALL dog attacks (including police K9s, and proffesional private security guard dogs) accounted for 24-30 human fatalities every year up until about 04 or 06. somewhere around there it slipped below 20 a year and has stayed there. at the same time by comparisson deer caused human fatalities have about doubled from the 100 a year to around 200 a year. also nearly EVERY breed has caused a human fatality, including such harmless breeds as dachshund, pomeranian, chihuahua, yorkshire terrier, poodle, beagle, lab, collie, & golden. also FTR (per the CDC before the BS report) most fatal dog attacks had 3 things in common a failure on the parents to monitor their children, a failure on the part of the dogs' owner to socialize/train their dog and a failure of ACO to respond aggresively to REPEAT offenders (IOW the attacking dogs had a history of unprovoked aggression).


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Pops2, very good information. I have problems saying what I want to say. Must be a short somewhere between the brain and tongue. It doesn't always come out like I planned. Then I have to add in my lack of typing skills..


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Reptyle said:


> If this thread is still going on in July, I'm going to light some people up...otherwise I'll stay quiet or risk getting banned...This is almost painful.


Almost sounds like those who complain, that they don't like what's on TV. The TV does have an "off" switch.

Maybe you could use your "off" switch.


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## suzfromWi (Jun 1, 2002)

pancho said:


> Just about any dog is able to tell the difference in a dog and a person.
> The alpha is a dog, not a person. You never want to let the dog think you are an alpha dog, a person is not a dog. Most dogs will, at some time, challenge the alpha. You do not want to put yourself in that position.
> 
> Being bred for combat, the pit bull does not understand alpha dogs. They were bred to accept any challenge. If you challenge one you should be able to carry out that challenge. That is one thing that causes many problems with the pet bull society.
> ...


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

First off dogs, nor any other animal, attacks "for no reason". You may not know it or understand it but there is a reason. Anyone who has been around horses knows when a horse lays his ears back and looks right at you the odds are he's thinking about doing something which is going to not end well for you. But to someone who has no experience with horses is quite likely to reach out and try to pet that horse and could possible wind up losing a finger or two. Now they would say that the horse attacked them for no reason or warning. And if you didn't know about horses you'd probably agree. Why? Because what you saw was a person reach out and try to pet him and he bit their fingers off.

Also if you walk up behind a horse and suddenly pat him on the rump you stand a good chance of taking a hoof in the ribs. Did the horse "attack you for no reason"? Again if you are ignorant about horses you'd think so. All you did was give him a little pat. But if you know about horses you know if you walk up behind a horse and startle him the odds are he's going to kick.

Dogs are the same. They have reason which make no sense to us humans and we, for the most part, are not going to change their reasoning. And just like horses different dogs react differently to things. I've seen horses you could 'ski' behind by walking up behind then and grabbing their tails and hanging on when they took off (yeah, yeah, but we were kids). I've also seen hoses you only approached from the front and when you went behind them you kept your hand on them and your body close if you didn't want to get hurt.

You can't blame a dog for doing what a dog does. He's a dog not a human or rabbit. I'd say 99% of the problem isn't the dog but the human.


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