# Lets suppose Ammo is gone...



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

And so are reloading supplies. No primers, no powder, no shells or even slugs. Now what do we do? I know the standard answer would be to stock up now, but that's not going to last forever right?

So, do we revert back to ball and cap? Can we make caps? Flintlocks? Can we get the equipment to make our own primers? How do we make modern powder?


----------



## Fire-Man (Apr 30, 2005)

InvalidID said:


> And so are reloading supplies. No primers, no powder, no shells or even slugs. Now what do we do? I know the standard answer would be to stock up now, but that's not going to last forever right?
> 
> So, do we revert back to ball and cap? Can we make caps? Flintlocks? Can we get the equipment to make our own primers? How do we make modern powder?


Bow and arrows, spears, slingshots etc.


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Flintlocks. Black powder is easily made by an individual.


----------



## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

There will be ammo for a long long time. All this ammo that's been flying off the shelves will be around a long time, and has a virtually unlimited shelf life if stored well. Ammo can be broken down into components and used in other calibers also, or cases reformed to others. 

I fail to see the advantange of a percussion muzzle loader over a cartridge gun. If you can make caps, you can make primers, and have the advantage of a cartrige.

I dont see much reason to go to a flintlock, theres plenty of ammo and primers in the world. If things got tight, most of the recreational shooting would come to a screaching halt.

 If one was worried about it, you could easily buy enough primers to last a lifetime of practical hunting and defensive use, for about what a high quality flintlock would cost. At least you could before this latest panic came about. If you waited til now to do anything about it, you haven't been paying attention, and you're way behind the curve.


----------



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Malamute said:


> There will be ammo for a long long time. All this ammo that's been flying off the shelves will be around a long time, and has a virtually unlimited shelf life if stored well. Ammo can be broken down into components and used in other calibers also, or cases reformed to others.
> 
> I fail to see the advantange of a percussion muzzle loader over a cartridge gun. If you can make caps, you can make primers, and have the advantage of a cartrige.
> 
> ...


 I was less interested in the practical and playing what if. IF there was no ammo or reloading supplies to be had, could a person still make use of modern firearms? (I have a Mosin that doubles as a boat oar and a hella nice club, but that's not what I mean)


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Louisville slugger base ball bat. applied liberally.


----------



## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

the best thing to have is a single or double barrel shotgun...you can shoot regular ammo in it and use it as a muzzleloader.


----------



## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> Louisville slugger base ball bat. applied liberally.



your just a brute.....:bash:....roflmao


----------



## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

Our family is proficient in archery and of course that means we have the tools. We can use that primarily for hunting but secondarily for other needs. My dd 11yo is quite good with her compound. Wish I had her eyes.


----------



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

AngieM2 said:


> Louisville slugger base ball bat. applied liberally.


 Wasp spray? Teehee


----------



## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

you need willow trees to make the best gunpowder too by the way.


----------



## rags57078 (Jun 11, 2011)

Fire-Man said:


> Bow and arrows, spears, slingshots etc.


I agree 100%


----------



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

elkhound said:


> you need willow trees to make the best gunpowder too by the way.


 Willow trees (or any other natural fiber) and some kinda acid if I recall 8th grade chemistry correctly. Makes a kinda flash powder.


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

1 part nitrate, 1 part sulfur and 3 parts charcoal. Wet it and make a paste. Dry and grind into a powder (it's good to be grounded during this part).


----------



## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

vicker said:


> 1 part nitrate, 1 part sulfur and 3 parts charcoal. Wet it and make a paste. Dry and grind into a powder (it's good to be grounded during this part).


do not grind it together.....it will explode


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

You can very easily make a black powder shotgun out of 3/4" (12ga) Black pipe.


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

You have to compound it wet. Then grind, or more like grate it. Mixing it dry will not compound it, it will only mix it.


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Work small quantities and wear gloves and long sleeves. Working on a grounded table would be a good idea.


----------



## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

vicker never grind any component together......NEVER


----------



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

vicker said:


> 1 part nitrate, 1 part sulfur and 3 parts charcoal. Wet it and make a paste. Dry and grind into a powder (it's good to be grounded during this part).


 That's black powder. For a more modern gun powder there's an acid wash over a natural fiber that creates flash paper. It is the basic compound in modern powder. I remember my 8th grade science teacher showing us this and wondering why they'd teach a bunch of 'hoods from Jersey how to make our own powder.

Seems they knew we'd forget... :hysterical:


----------



## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

formula is in foxfire book 5


----------



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Nitrocellulose! That's what I was thinking of. Ya'll can google that fur yurselves, I'm not gonna be responsible for yahoo blowin off an arm or something.

But even knowing that (and it's NOT a direct replacement for modern powder) you'd still need a primer.... So I suppose it's useless anyway.


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Black powder is a high explosive. Comes in handy for other things too, and it is a low pressure propellant for improvised weapons. And, it is very simple to make.


----------



## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

You always save the last few rounds so that you can get more. The Powers that bee will have plenty.


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

A flintlock rifle is an excellent tool to own.


----------



## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

elkhound said:


> the best thing to have is a single or double barrel shotgun...you can shoot regular ammo in it and use it as a muzzleloader.


 I'se curious, please explain how I can turn Pappys' old Iver Johnson into a muzzleloader!


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Well, first you're going to need a drill.


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

vicker said:


> 1 part nitrate, 1 part sulfur and 3 parts charcoal. Wet it and make a paste. *Dry and grind into a powder* (it's good to be grounded during this part).


*NO! DO NOT DRY* let the compound air dry until it is like a dough. Grate into granules on a window screen. Then finish drying.


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

InvalidID said:


> Nitrocellulose! That's what I was thinking of. Ya'll can google that fur yurselves, I'm not gonna be responsible for yahoo blowin off an arm or something.
> 
> But even knowing that (and it's NOT a direct replacement for modern powder) you'd still need a primer.... So I suppose it's useless anyway.


A safer smokeless powder substitute can be made by cooking sugar and potassium nitrate together in a double boiler. Scrape whatever drys on the side back into the mix. When it's like a stiff dough granulate by grating in a window screen, then finish drying. or leave it in a block, It'll work for moving earth, stumps etc. It's weaker than TNT so plan accordingly.


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

vicker said:


> Black powder is a high explosive. Comes in handy for other things too, and it is a low pressure propellant for improvised weapons. And, it is very simple to make.


it's a low explosive.


----------



## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

The sugar and potassium nitrate makes a decent primer material without being quite as corrosive as mercury fulminate.


----------



## Lancer (Nov 23, 2008)

Throw rock's !:hysterical:


----------



## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

My DD17 has made 2 simple bows with very few tools. Arrows are a little harder.


----------



## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

People were killing one another long before the invention of the modern gun. So not only will there be methods to hunt when the ammo is all gone, there will still be a need to defend oneself. NO matter what they ban.....self defense will always be a must in this world.


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/kids/hunting/index.html#main

Just something this thread caused me to look up

and here is a non-gun fatal (if you know how to use it) tool of killing.


----------



## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

I have a pretty powerful slingshot and a spare 'sling' for it. At close range I'm pretty sure I could at least knock someone down until I could get in close with a knife....if it didn't kill them outright. I used to be pretty good at knife throwing. I could probably get proficient again pretty quickly if I just practice a bit.

What do you mean 'if'?! There is no ammo or reloading components available now! If you snoozed you lost out on this one. Online sources are back ordered at least 6 months.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

vicker said:


> 1 part nitrate, 1 part sulfur and 3 parts charcoal. Wet it and make a paste. Dry and grind into a powder (it's good to be grounded during this part).


The recipe I've always seen and used for black powder is 75% potassium nitrate 15% airfloat willow charcoal, and 10% sulfur (all by weight). Quite a different ratio than yours. The only component I've made from scratch is the willow charcoal. I ball mill the three components separately and then compound them wet and grate them while still wet.

Here's a good article that talks about the wide range of ratios that will work: http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/recipe.html. Apparently the preparation of the charcoal is the most important factor. I probably just got lucky that mine works well. He's got a bunch of other good articles about black powder on that site.

For a non-pyro propellant, I use compressed air. There are some excellent air rifles out there these days. I'm not talking Daisy Red Ryder BB guns, but real serious guns. I only have a few so far so I can't say which brands are best, but I love the ones I have. http://www.pyramydair.com/a/Air_guns/588/cat_150


----------



## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

There are .45 and .50 cailber air guns out there! does anyone have any experiance with them? I've always been tempted but have never spent the money.
I'm remebering like 200 grain soft lead bullets at 800 fps so roughly he same power as a 45 acp light load. plenty to take out a sentry or a deer if used well
Dutch


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

InvalidID said:


> I was less interested in the practical and playing what if. IF there was no ammo or reloading supplies to be had, could a person still make use of modern firearms? (I have a Mosin that doubles as a boat oar and a hella nice club, but that's not what I mean)


Is this presuming there are none to be had anywhere in the world, or just in isolated locations?

If there's none to be had anywhere in the world then nobody would need them. Nobody needed firearms for anything before firearms were invented.

.


----------



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

naturelover said:


> Is this presuming there are none to be had anywhere in the world, or just in isolated locations?
> 
> If there's none to be had anywhere in the world then nobody would need them. Nobody needed firearms for anything before firearms were invented.
> 
> .


 I was thinking we/I/etc. couldn't find any, but others could.


----------



## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

naturelover said:


> Is this presuming there are none to be had anywhere in the world, or just in isolated locations?
> 
> *If there's none to be had anywhere in the world then nobody would need them. Nobody needed firearms for anything before firearms were invented.*
> 
> .


 I disagree with your premise. If nobody needed them, they wouldn't have been invented (unless it was an NRA plot!!!!)

Firearms are vastly more efficient than bows etc for hunting, self protection, and whatever else they are used for.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Dutch 106 said:


> There are .45 and .50 cailber air guns out there! does anyone have any experiance with them? I've always been tempted but have never spent the money.
> I'm remebering like 200 grain soft lead bullets at 800 fps so roughly he same power as a 45 acp light load. plenty to take out a sentry or a deer if used well
> Dutch


I have this one: http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Sam_Yang_Big_Bore_909S/516. I love it. I think it gets around 700 fps on the first shot and less on subsequent shots. It's certainly no match for a conventional deer rifle, but it's a very capable gun. I've only taken one deer with mine so far (30 yards, 180 grain slug) but I'm sold.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

naturelover said:


> Is this presuming there are none to be had anywhere in the world, or just in isolated locations?
> 
> If there's none to be had anywhere in the world then nobody would need them. Nobody needed firearms for anything before firearms were invented.
> 
> .


Even if nobody else can get ammo, there are still people out there bigger and stronger than me, so yeah, I'd still want firepower of some sort if at all possible.


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

ryanthomas said:


> The recipe I've always seen and used for black powder is 75% potassium nitrate 15% airfloat willow charcoal, and 10% sulfur (all by weight). Quite a different ratio than yours. The only component I've made from scratch is the willow charcoal. I ball mill the three components separately and then compound them wet and grate them while still wet.
> 
> Here's a good article that talks about the wide range of ratios that will work: http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/recipe.html. Apparently the preparation of the charcoal is the most important factor. I probably just got lucky that mine works well. He's got a bunch of other good articles about black powder on that site.
> 
> For a non-pyro propellant, I use compressed air. There are some excellent air rifles out there these days. I'm not talking Daisy Red Ryder BB guns, but real serious guns. I only have a few so far so I can't say which brands are best, but I love the ones I have. http://www.pyramydair.com/a/Air_guns/588/cat_150


I'm sure you are right, I was posting from memory of doing it nearly 40 years ago. I do think my recipe's ratio was 3/1/1. I do remember that it was a very simple process.
Edit: I have found a really good site telling how to make charcoal that I gave done, and works very well. I'll see if I can dig it up and post later, when I get in the computer. One of the foxfire books has a good article on processing saltpeter.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

vicker said:


> I'm sure you are right, I was posting from memory of doing it nearly 40 years ago. I do think my recipe's ratio was 3/1/1. I do remember that it was a very simple process.


It sounds like just about any ratio would work, as long as the charcoal is good quality. I was surprised to learn that. I always thought the 75:15:10 was the only "right" way.


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I'm wondering if one could use nitrate or urea fertilizer as the oxidizer?
edit: I'm guessing that's what they did during the civil war, when they were collecting urine v


----------



## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

naturelover said:


> Is this presuming there are none to be had anywhere in the world, or just in isolated locations?
> 
> If there's none to be had anywhere in the world then nobody would need them. Nobody needed firearms for anything before firearms were invented.
> 
> .


You have what appears to be a practiced and conscious ability to change the tone, direction and usefulness of a thread with just one post. In the spirit of absolute clarity, I am in no way expecting or desiring a response to this observation. I truly do not wish to enter into a banter session with you.


----------



## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

A second to that observation. This person professes to be a gun owner and sportsman, but takes a decidedly anti gun stance in the posts I've observed. I believe they also once said they only had guns because they "had to" for work or some other reason.

It really makes me wonder why they even post in most of the gun related threads, other than to cast aspersions on gun owners or make some negative comment on the subject.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

logbuilder said:


> You have what appears to be a practiced and conscious ability to change the tone, direction and usefulness of a thread with just one post. In the spirit of absolute clarity, I am in no way expecting or desiring a response to this observation. I truly do not wish to enter into a banter session with you.


You weren't forced to comment on my post and continue with changing the tone, direction and usefulness of the thread and I'm not interested in bantering with you or anyone else either, so spare me your complaint or ignore me, one or the other. If you and other people find my statement offensive and can't restrain themselves from responding to my opinion that I directed to the OP there's nothing I can do about that. Even the OP is not required to respond and I am not offended if he doesn't and neither should you be offended by my response to the OP.

PS - I noticed one or two other responses to the OP that weren't useful to the thread, maybe you should complain to them too.

.


----------



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

logbuilder said:


> You have what appears to be a practiced and conscious ability to change the tone, direction and usefulness of a thread with just one post. In the spirit of absolute clarity, I am in no way expecting or desiring a response to this observation. I truly do not wish to enter into a banter session with you.





naturelover said:


> You weren't forced to comment on my post and continue with changing the tone, direction and usefulness of the thread and I'm not interested in bantering with you or anyone else either, so spare me your complaint or ignore me, one or the other. If you and other people find my statement offensive and can't restrain themselves from responding to my opinion that I directed to the OP there's nothing I can do about that. Even the OP is not required to respond and I am not offended if he doesn't and neither should you be offended by my response to the OP.
> 
> PS - I noticed one or two other responses to the OP that weren't useful to the thread, maybe you should complain to them too.
> 
> .


 Play nice and stop ruining my party... WHAAAAA!!!!


----------



## zito (Dec 21, 2006)

elkhound said:


> you need willow trees to make the best gunpowder too by the way.


I've read in a couple places that alder wood is supposed to be better than willow. No idea if it's true, just something I picked up as I collect info from various places.


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Malamute said:


> I disagree with your premise. If nobody needed them, they wouldn't have been invented (unless it was an NRA plot!!!!)
> 
> Firearms are vastly more efficient than bows etc for hunting, self protection, and whatever else they are used for.


That may be true of modern firearms but the originals were generally less effective or reliable than bows & crossbows of the same period. There is great video of a Danish guy that does incredible close range & high volume shooting. He does things that a lot of shooters couldn't do w/a semiautomatic.


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I'm more interested in collecting game. I'm not much into trick shooting.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

InvalidID said:


> Play nice and stop ruining my party... WHAAAAA!!!!


It's your party and you can cry if you want to. :grin:


Okay now, to get back to the questions.



InvalidID said:


> I was less interested in the practical and playing what if. IF there was no ammo or reloading supplies to be had, *could a person still make use of modern firearms?* (I have a Mosin that doubles as a boat oar and a hella nice club, but that's not what I mean)





naturelover said:


> Is this presuming there are none to be had anywhere in the world, or just in isolated locations?
> 
> If there's none to be had anywhere in the world then nobody would need them. Nobody needed firearms for anything before firearms were invented.
> 
> .





InvalidID said:


> *I was thinking we/I/etc. couldn't find any, but others could*.


I think you would have 2 options then. Option #1 would be to suck up big time, make friends and trade with those who could find them and/or manufacture them for you.

Option #2, (just going by the circumstances that you're talking about) you might be able to manufacture your own ammunition and utilize _some_ types of modern firearms that may be able to handle unsophisticated explosives. After all, IIRC the original primitive "firearms" that the Chinese and Syrians invented and used for firing off small rockets were basically just rough metal tubes with black gunpowder shoved down inside them. That was nearly 1,000 years ago. 

But I don't think making gunpowder is as simple as throwing together potassium nitrate, sulfur and charcoal. You need to find or make _those_ essential ingredients first before you can combine them to make the gunpowder. Or whatever other type of explosive material you wanted to use. You couldn't just go online or go to the store and buy those ingredients, you'd need to make them. 

You'd need to know how to either find niter in it's natural mineral form (which might not be so readily available in your climate because of the constant atmospheric dampness in PNW), or else know how to make potassium nitrate out of other naturally occurring, non-synthetic substances. There are several methods for making that but they're all rather tedious. You'd also have to know how and where to extract elemental sulfur out of other mineral forms in your location because I think you might have difficulties extracting it out of petroleum products the way it's done these days. If you even had access to the right kind of petroleum products. I guess charcoal would be the easiest thing to make of the 3 essential ingredients for making basic black gunpowder.

Personally I think it would be more practical to make crossbows for hunting and self protection, and forget about making weapons of war intended for no other purpose except to go out and wage war against and kill other humans. Waging war was the only reason firearms were invented, they were never invented for hunting or sporting activities and it wasn't until firearms became much more sophisticated hundreds of years later that they started being used by wealthy men for hunting and then even later for sport. If you don't believe me look up the origin and past 800 - 1,000 years worth of deplorable history of firearms manufacture and usage. It wasn't even until the mid 19th century that explosives started getting used for _some_ constructive purposes.

.


----------



## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

naturelover said:


> I think you would have 2 options then. Option #1 would be to suck up big time, make friends and trade with those who could find them and/or manufacture them for you.
> 
> Option #2, (just going by the circumstances that you're talking about) you might be able to manufacture your own ammunition and utilize _some_ types of modern firearms that may be able to handle unsophisticated explosives. After all, IIRC the original primitive "firearms" that the Chinese and Syrians invented and used for firing off small rockets were basically just rough metal tubes with black gunpowder shoved down inside them. That was nearly 1,000 years ago.
> 
> ...


Naturelover,

Thanks for your reply. I'm in the same court as you regarding archery. If I could not get percussion items, I wouldn't expend a lot of energy in trying to make my own. I can do pretty darn good at up to 100' with my recurve. If I was into compounds, that would be ever farther. I do need to hone my skill at making arrows.


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Anybody tryed grating charcoal from a bag of the BBQ kind . . . .?? . . . . . .not the brickets

And Sulfur . . . grating up the stuff available for your garden . . . . ?? 

Obtaining this stuff with out raising eyebrows sure has changed . . . . .

Home made rockets . . . . 'shaped charges' . . . .fuzes . . .


----------



## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Reminds me of the story line for "Dies the Fire" - except that no gunpowder of any type works. Everything reverted to bow & arrow.

With a wisker biscut a sling shot can be modified to shoot arrows with enough force to bring down small game.


----------



## unioncreek (Jun 18, 2002)

elkhound said:


> you need willow trees to make the best gunpowder too by the way.


Willow ash make the best black powder that's what Goex and Elephant brand use.

Bob


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

logbuilder said:


> Naturelover,
> 
> Thanks for your reply. I'm in the same court as you regarding archery. *If I could not get percussion items, I wouldn't expend a lot of energy in trying to make my own.* I can do pretty darn good at up to 100' with my recurve. If I was into compounds, that would be ever farther. I do need to hone my skill at making arrows.


Agreed. If I couldn't get ready-made percussion items for use in firearms I wouldn't bother trying to make them from raw materials either. I might be inclined to try making explosive materials for construction purposes, i.e. in developing land for agriculture and irrigation, stump blowing, building reservoirs, fire-breaks, roads, mining the earth, etc. - that kind of thing, but not for making killing devices.



Malamute said:


> A second to that observation. *This person professes to be a gun owner and sportsman*, but takes a decidedly anti gun stance in the posts I've observed. I believe they also once said they only had guns because they *"had to" for work or some other reason*.
> 
> It really makes me wonder why they even post in most of the gun related threads, other than to cast aspersions on gun owners or make some negative comment on the subject.


Just for clarification, at no time in my life have I ever professed to be a sportsman nor for that matter have I ever claimed to be a _man_ !! :shocked:, and I happen to have very strong opinions that you probably wouldn't approve of about what constitutes "sport". There is absolutely nothing "sporting" about using firearms for killing anything. Nor have I at any time ever stated any reason for why I have firearms, whether for work or any other reason and my reasons for owning them are nobody else's business so you will just have to keep on wondering. 

And last but not least, if you are going to make personal comments about or otherwise discuss a forum member with other forum members online it behooves you to have your facts straight about the forum member being discussed. Discussing other forum members on the board and making statements about them in prejudice (false or factual) is called GOSSIP, which I believe, is against the forum rules and might even be a bannable offense. The only thing you got right in your comments about me is that I own guns and I take an anti-gun stance, which was clearly not necessary because everyone here already knows that. It might be better for you if you mind your netiquette manners and make any statements you have about me directly to me instead of to other people. Thank you.

.


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

vicker said:


> I'm more interested in collecting game. I'm not much into trick shooting.


Trick shooting is what they did back in the day w/22s & shot loads pretending they were shooting solids. This is marksmanship & technique honed to permit very high speed. There is no doubt in my mind this guy could double on deer if a couple or four cruised past his stand. Just like the guys throwing a half doesn't clays in the air & busting them all, is there any doubt they get more doves per box of shells than you or me?
Likewise the people on this site that think 10 shots into a head & shoulders target with a tactical reload in under 60 seconds isn't possible. It's because they lack the training & practice that they think its a trick or unrealistic. This guy just put in the work.
[ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g[/ame]


----------



## unioncreek (Jun 18, 2002)

naturelover said:


> I own guns and I take an anti-gun stance
> 
> .


Now why would someone who is anti firearms own a firearms!!!!! Now that's about as hypocritical as anything I've ever seen.

Bob


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> Trick shooting is what they did back in the day w/22s & shot loads pretending they were shooting solids. This is marksmanship & technique honed to permit very high speed. *There is no doubt in my mind this guy could double on deer if a couple or four cruised past his stand*. ...... This guy just put in the work.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g


That was the coolest thing to watch. :thumb:

.


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Here is the link on how to make charcoal. This has worked very well for me. I use a 55gal drum with the removabl lid, but you can cut a lid off of the others carefully and reuse it.
http://www.eaglequest.com/~bbq/charcoal/


----------



## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

ok there seems to be 2 scenarios; one where only some have firearms and ammo, there are ways to get them to part with some or all of their arsenals (your imagination can fill in the blanks) and the other is that no one has firearms and ammo in which case there are, in no particular order, slings, bow and arrow, atlatl, baseball bat, shillelagh, war club, long knife, fighting knife, any knife, tomahawk, crossbow, rocks, sticks, tooth and claw.

just my take.
dean

*
*

*
*


----------



## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

vicker said:


> I'm wondering if one could use nitrate or urea fertilizer as the oxidizer?
> edit: I'm guessing that's what they did during the civil war, when they were collecting urine v


 They got their saltpetre from the urine, and privy waste. It was a pretty big business close to the cities in that time.


----------



## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

For there not to be any ammo... powder, primers, components... would mean someone has banned/and or confiscated them. For that to be enforced, someone (the state) will have to be armed. As in any other battlefield in the history of mankind, you take ammo, weapons, valuables off the enemies you slay.

I seriously doubt if I could burn through what I have, in ten lifetimes... of normal shooting. And, if the shooting wasn't 'normal', doubt if I could get good enough or lucky enough to burn through all I have, without getting taken down sometime or other.

Primers and powder last a long time... wish I could afford hundreds of boxes of projectiles... do have several bullet molds to make my own, just in case.

If the world ended tomorrow, and there were no zombies to shoot, I could easily ration what I have, to last me, and several other families, for decades.


----------



## vegascowgirl (Sep 19, 2004)

i am with those who have mentioned bows, slingshots, and such. There is always a way. and theoretically, there doesn't have to be a shortage of ammo, just some major laws, major fines, and crooked law makers.


----------



## damoc (Jul 14, 2007)

vicker said:


> 1 part nitrate, 1 part sulfur and 3 parts charcoal. Wet it and make a paste. Dry and grind into a powder (it's good to be grounded during this part).


vicker when i was 12 i would have known your percentages were wrong

not even close and im surprised someone else here did not pick up on it
no offense meant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder

to answer the original question/what if

guns should last a very long time if cared for and if they are not pushed to
modern pressure levels, what im saying is shooting blackpowder loads
the gun can probably be handed down to your grand kids.(provided it doesnt rust first) most parts of a gun could be repaired and rebuilt by a simple blacksmith setup except perhaps the barrel on a rifle (very difficult with primitive tooling)

bullets, powders and even primers im sure some enteprising survivor
will work out how to produce. but cases will be a very difficult thing to produce in quantity without modern tooling.

cap and ball firearms will probably be very easy to keep going and even then bows and arrows will have a important place.


----------



## AR Aaron (May 26, 2010)

damoc said:


> vicker when i was 12 i would have known your percentages were wrong
> 
> not even close and im surprised someone else here did not pick up on it
> no offense meant
> ...


 I think for me it was 14.... not 12, but yeah, I recall making one hell of a stink in the garage while playing with the parts to mix, and correct ratio's. I am still shocked to this day I didn't end up in jail. I know in this "current" day and age a kid would be locked up probably some of stuff a certain 14 YO did.

Part of Wife's present this year at x-mas was a Sling Shot.... was on her prep gift list. Marbles from Dollar Store completed this gift. But ammo can always be had for it. Capable of taking small game and birds in times of need.


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

When I was twelve I would have gotten it right


----------



## damoc (Jul 14, 2007)

vicker said:


> When I was twelve I would have gotten it right


:hysterical::thumb:


----------



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

vicker said:


> When I was twelve I would have gotten it right


 Looks like your chemistry is as bad as your history. :hysterical:

Sorry man, couldn't resist.


----------



## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

texican said:


> For there not to be any ammo... powder, primers, components... would mean someone has banned/and or confiscated them. For that to be enforced, someone (the state) will have to be armed. As in any other battlefield in the history of mankind, you take ammo, weapons, valuables off the enemies you slay.
> 
> I seriously doubt if I could burn through what I have, in ten lifetimes... of normal shooting. And, if the shooting wasn't 'normal', doubt if I could get good enough or lucky enough to burn through all I have, without getting taken down sometime or other.
> 
> ...


Me too.

I plan to be the guy that supplies the folks who didn't think to stock up.


----------



## rainy5 (Oct 28, 2011)

Just and idea. We have a potato launcher. They are fun! We have launched golf balls, and lacrosse balls, you could use rocks. You can find video's on line how to make them and even have a sleeve that adapts to change size of whatever your launching. 
It's not a potato gun! It's a potato launcher. 
All talk of no ammo or supplies aside. We all need to have alternatives and fun. Everything we have launched has been on our own property. Plus when they have launched it at work the police where involved in the launching with them. 
They took out a huge beehive. 

Just an idea for those who want alternatives. There is a list of hundreds types of igniters that can be used. From hair spray to etc. 
When the launch believe it or not washrags. They make this funny thud sound. 

yes, have a Fire extinguisher and be careful it's not a toy for kids. (safety not to make you laugh), yes, they are firemen police and medic's that built it and use it. I recommend if you decide to own one to buy firemans gloves off ebay. They use bunker gear. when playing. They have never had anyone hurt or problems but that is not to say it cannot happen.


----------



## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

InvalidID said:


> And so are reloading supplies. No primers, no powder, no shells or even slugs. Now what do we do? I know the standard answer would be to stock up now, but that's not going to last forever right?
> 
> So, do we revert back to ball and cap? Can we make caps? Flintlocks? Can we get the equipment to make our own primers? How do we make modern powder?


 
Where there is a will, there is always a way.....

I honestly believe if no ammo was ever made again starting now....excluding a war....there would be enuff to last for a long time if it was not for war and the shooting range...very little ammo is expended in hunting for food comparativly speaking.

There is alot more ammo currently floating around available and a unbelievable amount already in peoples hands......If there was a accurate number somewhere of the amount of rounds currently in possesion or available it would stagger most people to even concieve the number.

Easily in the billions of rounds just here in America....


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

shawnlee said:


> ..... There is alot more ammo currently floating around available and a unbelievable amount already in peoples hands......If there was a accurate number somewhere of the amount of rounds currently in possesion or available it would stagger most people to even concieve the number.
> 
> Easily in the billions of rounds just here in America....


I believe that is absolutely the truth.

.


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Instead of the mind set of burning dozens--hundreds--thousands of rounds per day "playing" Folks would Very soon have to develop the attitude of my once-a-pon-a-time grampa in law.
First (and only) time we went deer hunting together he really impressed me with only carrying --three-- rounds for his 35 Rem.......

And his statement about that was: "If I don't get the deer with that . . .I don't deserve it."
He had the money to buy what ever he needed.........

If the ammo is very short people need to learn how to aim rather than the 'spray and pray' attitude................


----------



## tgmr05 (Aug 27, 2007)

Alcohol was banned, once, but it did not stop alcohol from being made....

The technology is out there. You cannot erase it from history or the human mind. someone will figure out how to make components, and a black market will pop up.

You can fall under the warped utopian dream where only the 'elite' have the ammo/primers, etc., but..... maybe not here,...maybe... 

The control one small elite group would have to have, is mind boggling considering the expanse and size of the American population. Well, then you get into the historical extremes of wiping out a considerable part, so it is more manageable, and the fear generated by such action helps keep folks in control.

well, sorta looks like we are on our way...


----------



## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hey 
_ryanthomas_











How are you charging the rifle with nitrogen bottles or hand pump or some thing else?
Dutch


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Dutch 106 said:


> Hey
> _ryanthomas_
> 
> 
> ...


I use an SCBA (firefighter air) tank and get it filled at my local volunteer fire department. They're all friends so they do it for free, but I make a donation to cover use of their pump. For backup I have the hand pump, but I've only used it a few times.


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

InvalidID said:


> Looks like your chemistry is as bad as your history. :hysterical:
> 
> Sorry man, couldn't resist.


Boy, I asked for that one.:hysterical:, and your fall into temptation is completely understandable. :bash:


----------



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

InvalidID said:


> And so are reloading supplies. No primers, no powder, no shells or even slugs. Now what do we do? I know the standard answer would be to stock up now, but that's not going to last forever right?
> 
> So, do we revert back to ball and cap? Can we make caps? Flintlocks? Can we get the equipment to make our own primers? How do we make modern powder?


When you run out of modern supplies you revert to supplies of past eras. That is why in addition to my firearms I have bow and arrows, crossbow and bolts and extra bowstrings.


----------

