# Problem horse



## littledoe (May 26, 2006)

Wondering if anyone can help me with this. I have an 8 yr old gelding who is generally pretty easy going. I have him in a corral connected to a large stall barn and I turn him out a few hours a day to pasture. I have two pastures, one on the south end of our property and one on the north end that I rotate him in. Each time I take him to the north pasture he gets excited, generally around the same spot and will buck while I am leading him or try to trot away from me. I walk him in a circle and calm him down before going further. This morning he kicked me while doing his little 'stupid' routine. He never does this on the way to the south pasture. A friend of mine wondered if it had something to do with the fact that there is a little stud colt near the north pasture. I don't know. There is a miniature mare and her stud colt over there. I am going to stop bringing him to that pasture for now because I feel that this is a dangerous operation for me. Obviously, I can't have a horse on a lead line acting like this. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated. 

Thank you
Mia


----------



## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

It could be the mare came into heat at some point and now he gets excited about her. Geldings can be a little "studdy" sometimes.

While walking him, make sure he does not have enough lead to kick you. I would give a couple of jerks, not hard, on the lead at the earliest sign that he's about to act up to get his attention and growl "that's enough" or something like that at him. 

He's clearly not respecting you so you might consider the Clinton Anderson tape on getting respect through ground work. 

Good luck and be safe.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I think I would get a stud chain and use that. He will learn to walk quietly very quickly.


----------



## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

I don't have any advice. There are people here far more experienced. I do want yo ask you to do whatever it takes to stay safe!


----------



## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

The same spot makes it easy. You know when it's coming and can plan for it. Make it VERY unpleasant for him to act up and eventually he will stop. I agree with Lisa - stud chain is a necessity.


----------



## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Yep, he needs correction. You never should have allowed this in the first place. If necessary put a bit in his mouth and use it when he starts his nonsense.


----------



## Henwhisperer (Nov 19, 2009)

I haven't been to this forum for a long time and I have never posted here before. I saw the question and felt that I might be of some help because I am a positive reinforcement horse trainer. You may have heard of clicker training, which is the same thing. It has been used with dolphins, whales, dogs, elephants, rats, and horses. Clicker training is not trick training. It is a conversation with the animal. 

I'd suggest that you take some time, look for clicker training/positive reinforcement/+R videos on YouTube. There are books on it also. And of course many resources on the Internet.

With a little bit of effort to learn how to clicker train, in very short order you will have a horse who will understand what you want and be a willing participant in the conversation, who will walk beside you wherever you want to go.

Nose chain....bah.


----------



## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Henwhisperer said:


> I haven't been to this forum for a long time and I have never posted here before. I saw the question and felt that I might be of some help because I am a positive reinforcement horse trainer. You may have heard of clicker training, which is the same thing. It has been used with dolphins, whales, dogs, elephants, rats, and horses. Clicker training is not trick training. It is a conversation with the animal.
> 
> I'd suggest that you take some time, look for clicker training/positive reinforcement/+R videos on YouTube. There are books on it also. And of course many resources on the Internet.
> 
> ...


In some cases I agree with clicker training. But horses are animals. They treat each other with respect - and with harshness. A horse does something wrong with a horse further up the pecking order and they get a kick or a bite. A nose chain won't kill them - and it quickly teaches them respect in a dangerous situation. They don't click at each other. They kick and bite. Hard.


----------



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

Littledoe, I mean no disrespect in saying this, but you don't need a stud chain or a clicker. You need help in learning how to handle your horse. Getting kicked is a clear message from the horse. Listen to what he's told you.

Be safe,

Jack


----------



## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

I agree. It's a little quick to go to a stud chain. He has slowly been escalating and didn't get correction. At this point I don't think it will take much to bring him back in line. I do think the jerk on the lead and the growl will get his attention. If that doesn't work, then go to the stud chain.

As for clicker training. For tricks that would be fine. The OP needs to get this horse's attention and respect now and that's not going to happen with a clicker. She could get hurt trying to click/treat this horse into behaving. 

I do have recent experience with a disrespectful horse. My father-in-law had a horse for a year. In that time the horse learned to kick when you asked him to do something he didn't want and he would walk over you and use his body to move you out of his way. In short, he had no respect at all for people. The horse was given to my husband. Almost made me wonder if my FIL doesn't like my husband! LOL As I am the primary horse handler, it was on me to fix him.

I carried a whip when handling him in the very beginning. I needed it. If I tried to correct with the lead and halter, he would shove into me with his body then try to turn and kick me. I got his attention real fast with a pop of that whip. He is a good horse that isn't really mean. He was just treating people the way he would another horse. He accepted pretty quickly that I am the boss and that is not acceptable behavior. I no longer worry that he might kick or run me down when I fly spray him or try to pick his hooves out or any of the other things he didn't want to have done or do.


----------



## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

And I would not walk him forward in a circle. Obviously he is wanting to move and you are an annoying bug holding him back, allowing him forward is really a reward, even though he gets circled back, in his mind he got to go forward, he just needs to augment it some to keep going in the direction he wants which he will do by acting up more. He needs to be corrected and worked. Perhaps someone can help you so you don't get hurt. I bet you'd be surprised how just different body language in the handler could cause this problem with disappear.


----------



## bergere (May 11, 2002)

I have used clicker training on "Some" rescue Icelandic's.
It can work well if used correctly.

But if you get an aggressive horse, that has been allowed to boss people around and hurt them. Clicker training doesn't work.
The last rescue I did, was a mare, that was allowed to be boss over humans, if she had been a stallion I would of had her put down.
She was allowed to run over, or go over the top of people, strike at people, drag people when being lead. 
And more tricks than a soured rent string horse and she knew what she was doing.
Clicker training would of just made her worse.
I was firm but fair to her, but there was a couple of times she was punished for deciding she didn't want to lead, so she was going to go over the top of me.
In a herd the lead mare would of cleaned her clock. So the 10 seconds of death was used.
That got her to pay attention, and she slowly learn over the last three years, this human isn't going to tolerate bad manners.

She is now doing very well, have been able to go back to a flat halter, after nearly 3 years of retraining with a rope halter. 

Every now and again, she tests, but I know what she is going to do, before she gets a chance to do it. And cut her off at the pass, so to speak.

Anyway... Use a chain if it is going to get his attention. Get help if you need it. 
Try to learn his body language so you can be one step ahead of him, and nip any bad behavior in the bud.
When I handled Stallions they were expected to behave like gentlemen, even if their favorite mare was in heat. 
Even my wonderful Arab gelding, was proud cut but he learned to have perfect manners, no matter what was going on.

A bad mannered horse is dangerous.


----------



## Henwhisperer (Nov 19, 2009)

If this were my horse, I'd start with teaching about getting paid for a job behind a safety barrier. You can find ways to introduce c/t on YouTube (Peggy Hogan, Mary Hunter, Alex Kurland for example). Once the idea is established and everyone understands the rules of the game, move on to targeting. That is a pole or lunge whip with a ball or small safety cone attached to the end. Teach targeting with that. Then as you walk and ask the horse to target, it will forget all about the issues, you will have his attention, not what is waiting on the way to the other pasture. And at the place just before the acting up occurs you stop and do rapid fire clicking and treating, 6 times maybe. In very short order you will have a willing companion you respects you as the leader.


----------



## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

It's hard to know why he is misbehaving, but it doesn't really matter.

I'll fall on the side of yes, to both stud chain and clicker training. I wouldn't try to clicker train him in the "stupid place" or while turning him out -- for now, if you have to use that pasture I would use a stud chain while wearing gloves and possibly even a helmet if you know he's going to be a jerk. Be firm but fair - straight to the pasture and back (don't stop, don't circle, don't rush). Give him a good pop with the lead if he starts to act up. (Probably the best thing to do is to practice leading him with a stud chain to the good pasture first, so he knows that it's there before he decides to be stupid and freaks himself out).

But, in the meantime I'd go back to ground manners school with him and it might be useful to work with a clicker as well as a dressage whip. For some horses, it's best to keep their brain busy - I have one. You can't *force* her to do anything or she gets reactive and it spirals down from there. She is so smart she creates problems for herself...I should work with a clicker as well because it would be faster to teach her what I want her to do (e.g. loading) instead of simply "insisting" she do it.

Good luck and stay safe!


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

He has shown aggression with the kick, he needs to learn hard and fast that that is not an acceptable thing to do. So far he's only learned he can be a butthead on the way to one pasture but if something isn't done _now_ he will learn to be a butthead all the time. 

Start with the stud chain and when he gets to the area where he acts up (or just before) correct him without engaging the chain and make him stand still, walk farther and do it again. If at any time he acts aggressive- engage the chain. Be sure to reward him with some pats or scritches when he stands as asked.


----------



## JPiantedosi (Apr 23, 2012)

Henwhisperer said:


> I haven't been to this forum for a long time and I have never posted here before. I saw the question and felt that I might be of some help because I am a positive reinforcement horse trainer. You may have heard of clicker training, which is the same thing. It has been used with dolphins, whales, dogs, elephants, rats, and horses. Clicker training is not trick training. It is a conversation with the animal.
> 
> I'd suggest that you take some time, look for clicker training/positive reinforcement/+R videos on YouTube. There are books on it also. And of course many resources on the Internet.
> 
> ...


Positive reinforcement has its place..... this is not it. Unless the OP is very familiar with clicker training, then there is the possibility of being hurt or worse by this horse. 

This animal needs manners yesterday, this is something that needs to be handled now and there should be no question in the horses mind about what is expected. 

Jim


----------



## Henwhisperer (Nov 19, 2009)

Well everyone and every horse has to start somewhere. Here is a video to show the owner just where to start. Very safe way to begin. http://youtu.be/rw-z22sJn4c (Sorry for the sloppy link. iPad not very user friendly).

I'll step away from this conversation now, but should the owner of the horse care to get more information please feel free to PM me. 

Just for background info: I've got a 10 yo mare who i have had since she was orphaned at 1 1/2 months. I know something about mean horses and mean training. I know something about negative reinforcement, and then saw the light. Preferred to have a horse who was willing to do what I asked not scared of me.

Peace.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

There's a big difference between fear and respect.


----------



## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

That gelding I spoke of above came in and took over as alpha by biting and kicking. I guarantee you the other horses do not fear him. They respect him. Horse don't get respect from other horses by being nice. 

He does not fear me. He respects me. If he feared me, I doubt he would voluntarily come to me for attention and treats when I walk into the pasture. 

No one is saying clicker training is a bad thing. In this situation, she doesn't have time for that. At this point she is having trouble safely walking the horse to pasture. She needs something that will get his attention now. After that, if she chooses, she can clicker train.


----------



## Henwhisperer (Nov 19, 2009)

Ya think? 

Willingness has nothing to do with respect. What I mean by that is if you like your job and you are willing to do it, do you also have to respect your boss? No, because you like what you do and are willing to do it.

Pressure and release have everything to do with fear and nothing to do with willingness.


----------



## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Let's not personify horses. They are a different creature than humans. When you get their respect, then they listen. It's interesting how there are horses at our barn that some are afraid to handle - because they act up with them all the time. For me and a few others who have shown them that WE are boss? They are angels. Just 5 seconds of a "come to Jesus moment" was all it took for one horse. I turned around and started walking again (after he had tried to kick and strike out at me and I dealt with it) and he walked in like an angel. One more act up before his stall, another 5 seconds of CTJM and he has not done it to me since. He knows. Not gonna work. That's what this horse needs - just as he would be dealt with in a herd.


----------



## Mme_Pickles (Nov 15, 2011)

This horse needs to be treated like a horse. If you can "speak horse" to him, you'll go a lot farther than trying to clicker him into doing something. It sounds, according to the OP, like that obnoxious brat in the store that is throwing the tantrum or whining excessively and the mom says in a placating voice, "Now, now, sweetie. If you're a good little boy, mommy will give you candy! Doesn't that sound like fun? Oh no. Please, don't scream louder. Sweetie, here's some candy right now. And if you can be good to the end of this aisle, I'll give you more candy!" Instead, Alpha Horse (which should be the OP, not the horse) needs to give the subordinate a swift kick in the pants, so to speak. Watch a herd of horses out in the paddock. They're not clicking at each other and giving each other little snacky-poos. If one gets outta line, the alpha steps in with either a kick, bite, nip, forceful nudge, etc. Whatever Alpha believes is appropriate. My boy doesn't realize he's many, MANY pounds heavier than I am 'cause I act as though I'm a big, ol' tough gal. If he tries fooling around in the paddock or wherever with me and I don't like it, all I have to do with him is give him "The Look". Why is it that easy? 'Cause he KNOWS I'm Alpha. No doubt about it in his mind. (And no, I've never hurt or hit him. I use movement, fierce stance, but never punishment or pain.) The OP needs to reestablish who is alpha in this situation. They can do it. But not by bribing/treating at this point. Order needs to be established first. Then, they can work on the partnership.
Whew. That was long. Hope at least part of it was helpful! And the best to you, Mia, with getting your boy back to being a gentleman!


----------



## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

Horses correct each other with kicks and bites to establish and reinforce their social order. They do not treat each other or us with a purely positive reinforcement based attitude. I am a big supporter of positive reinforcement most of the time, but I do think that there is a time and place for a stern correction, and this is one of them. 

I agree, this horse needs a correction. It is clear that the OP has lost some confidence here, and no longer feels safe working with this horse in this area. This can be a slippery slope, and the OP either needs to correct this situation before it escalates, or seek help from someone with more experience. While this could probably be corrected by an experienced individual without the use of a stud chain, if a stud chain makes the OP feel more comfortable handling this horse, I would say use one. And like someone else already said, keep him on a short enough lead that he cannot turn around and kick you. If he starts acting up, he needs a swift, stern correction, and keep going. If you get nervous and dance around with him while he's getting distracted, then you should consider finding someone who can help you get back on track with him. Perhaps an instructor or experienced person at your barn who wouldn't mind helping you out. 

You've gotten some good advice here, I don't think I need to say much more. Good luck.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I know it is currently popular to use all of the various 'natural horsemanship' methods and things like clicker training for horses. I use some NH type things myself and have done a couple of Ray Hunt clinics years ago that I gained a lot from.

However, bottom line, I still go back to the old standby "come to Jesus meeting" type foundation whenever necessary to establish myself as the alpha with a specific horse... which usually means a chain over the nose and a serious buggy whip, to be used as required.

My 'alpha training' foundation was established early by watching any number of alpha mares maintaining order out in a horse herd. Their methods work.


----------



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

I love "clicker trainers" but I could never get the timing right. Seem's my horses have trouble sorting out whether they should respond to the first or second "click" when I sqeezed that little thingy, lol. I believe that a click is pressure but a treat isn't release and leave it at that.

Here's a couple of u-tubes that might interest some folks. The first appears to be a lady who has not a lot of experience but is trying to gain some control and understanding of how the feet and mind are related. Look for the good and bad, then decide if this handler is likely to be kicked in the future?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgBRzWTarJM[/ame]

This fella has bit more going on for him. He's connecting it all, the mind, feet and spirit of the horse. Again look for the good and the bad. Think he's going to get kicked soon?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD3W1oHJfrs[/ame]


Observe and compare, then decide which type of training might be easiest on the horse. Too many folks try and do what's easiest for the human. Wish I could make it work that way.


Have fun, be safe

Jack


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Do any other horses act "off" in that location? Sometimes there can be underground wiring with a "leak" that causes these things. Horses are extremely sensitive to electricity. Moreso than people.


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Anyone who thinks that one good, well timed whack will make ANYTHING, horse, dog or even child, _fear_ you, has issues. There is a clear line between discipline and abuse, and I'm sorry you can't see it.

Discipline is; the immediate and clear result of any behavior. 
If you stick your hand in a fire, it burns, and so you don't do that. If you eat an apple, it is sweet, so you are likely to do that again. If a horse kicks me, I whack him a good one and make him move out of my space, when he moves away from me and gives "makes peace" signals, I stop making him move, same as another horse would. 
That is discipline. It is instant, it is clear, it is understandable, and the animal controls it. When you grab a wasp, it stings, when you let it go, it stops.

This horse will either get the discipline he needs, or head down a road that ends on a truck bound to Mexico. Personally, I am of the opinion that one good smack is kinder. My mare pinned her ears back at me the other day, got a healthy smack on the neck and chased away from the round bale she had decided to guard - and then followed me all around the pasture like a dog and she whickers to me and comes up to be petted every time she sees me. That's not fear. She knows there is no reason to fear me, and she knows that I don't tolerate ear pinning any more then her momma would.

Positive reinforcement is a wonderful thing. 
But please be aware of 2 things. One; it has a very clear limit. It teaches what to do. It does not and can not teach what NOT to do. If there is anything that an animal wants more then it wants your reward, welcome to your limit!
Two; _just like_ training methods that are 100% negative reinforcement (which a; is still a long stretch from "violence" and b; no one is suggesting as a way of life) it is inherently imbalanced and does not give a healthy relationship when used to the exclusion of all other things.


Waaaay back when, I ran into horses now and then that were abused, which used to mean taught to fear people. They were few and far between and and needed clear boundaries and lots of kindness. I've never met one that couldn't be saved.
What I run into now are many, _many_ horses that are abused more subtly and are FAR more dangerous. They've been "Black Beauty"ed to death. _**All a horse needs is love**._ And that horse will kill you. They have no boundaries and no respect and for plenty of them, the only cure is a bullet.
It makes me very, very sad. People who abuse and beat horses know what they're doing is wrong, and generally, they get away from them or are gotten away from them and that is the end of their abuse.
Folks who baby and love them to death are convinced they are doing the right thing and no one stops them and they destroy horse after horse after horse.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Otter said:


> Anyone who thinks that one good, well timed whack will make ANYTHING, horse, dog or even child, _fear_ you, has issues. There is a clear line between discipline and abuse, and I'm sorry you can't see it.
> 
> Discipline is; the immediate and clear result of any behavior.
> If you stick your hand in a fire, it burns, and so you don't do that. If you eat an apple, it is sweet, so you are likely to do that again. If a horse kicks me, I whack him a good one and make him move out of my space, when he moves away from me and gives "makes peace" signals, I stop making him move, same as another horse would.
> ...


LIKE, LIKE, LIKE.
Completely agree. Especially the last part.


----------



## Countrygrl3 (Nov 19, 2004)

Otter said:


> Folks who baby and love them to death are convinced they are doing the right thing and no one stops them and they destroy horse after horse after horse.


Amen.


----------



## Countrygrl3 (Nov 19, 2004)

levi1739 said:


> I love "clicker trainers" but I could never get the timing right. Seem's my horses have trouble sorting out whether they should respond to the first or second "click" when I sqeezed that little thingy, lol. I believe that a click is pressure but a treat isn't release and leave it at that.
> 
> Here's a couple of u-tubes that might interest some folks. The first appears to be a lady who has not a lot of experience but is trying to gain some control and understanding of how the feet and mind are related. Look for the good and bad, then decide if this handler is likely to be kicked in the future?
> 
> ...


Oi. I couldn't even watch much of that first video. I kept cringing too much.


----------



## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Countrygrl3 said:


> Oi. I couldn't even watch much of that first video. I kept cringing too much.


Yep, me too. I kept thinking "Great idea!! Get behind the whippersnapper! That's the perfect place to go!! Let her get all in front of you and release that lunge line as she runs!"


----------



## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

jennigrey said:


> Do any other horses act "off" in that location? Sometimes there can be underground wiring with a "leak" that causes these things. Horses are extremely sensitive to electricity. Moreso than people.


If you have underground wiring be sure to check this. A friend of ours had leaking power near his barn and couldn't feel it himself but his cows were acting up and he couldn't figure it out.


----------



## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

jennigrey said:


> Do any other horses act "off" in that location? Sometimes there can be underground wiring with a "leak" that causes these things. Horses are extremely sensitive to electricity. Moreso than people.


 
I know it isn't any help in the situation, but I agree there might be something that has made Mr. Horse nervous here. Now there is a double whammy; the OP sees it coming and is unconsciously tensing in preparation for it, making the horse feel as though he really does have something to be scared of after all. Ask me how I know; I had a horse that I unconsciously enabled to be a doofus many times. There is one area of our farm that NO horse walks across calmly; every single horse sort of hot-foots, prances and jigs his/her way through it regardless of who is riding it. We have a gas pipeline that runs through the farm, and I suspect it has something to do with that although the same pipeline runs right through our pasture and it is audible as a series of low thuds periodically throughout the day. Doesn't phase them at all in the field. :shrug: If you could figure out what is frazzling Mr Horse, you might be able to recreate the scenario and desensitize him to it on YOUR terms.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I'm certainly not abusive or hard on horses but there's certain things that I believe should never be tolerated and all relate to the physical harm of humans. All violations of basic laws relating to harming humans are dealt with quickly in a Ray Hunt sorta way and never in my life have I ever punished a horse for causing harm or endangering humans and found them cowering in a corner or caused them any physical or psychological harm.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

wr said:


> ... never in my life have I ever punished a horse for causing harm or endangering humans and found them cowering in a corner or caused them any physical or psychological harm.


Exactly. This is why watching a herd of horses interact is such a good 'school' for learning how to deal with horses. You will never see one of the herd "cower" from a boss mare after she has thumped an offender thoroughly with both hind feet and/or removed several chunks of hair from the rump.

Move quickly out of the way if she walks up to the water tank? Yes. Cower? No. Respect, not fear. They know they are not in danger of being corrected if they do what they are supposed to be doing. Same with their interaction with humans.


----------



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

When I watch someone like Clinton Anderson work Natural Horsemanship, he is very firm with the horses and does NOT tolerate them acting up. He doesn't whack them all the time, but he's not afraid to straighten one right out and make it WORK for him when it acts up. He's smart enough to stress where to stand and how to handle that horse to keep it safe too. He'll make a horse work until it's happy to walk calmly and respect his space. 

I read some references to clicker training. I like clicker training, I do it with my dogs. It's great to teach them things. I also will correct something that needs correcting.

Someone said that the click is a pressure and the treat is the release - that is NOT clicker training. What you do with clicker training is not pressure/release training (that is negative reinforcement - where removing the pressure is the reinforcer). The clicker is paired with the treat - the treat right after the click - until the sound of the clicker IS a reinforcer of its own. However, you must keep that charged by treating as soon after the click as you can. The click then becomes pleasurable to the animal being trained and they will work to receive it. This is useful because you can time a click much more accurately to tell the animal what behavior you want than you can with just a treat or even a word. Many words we use training we use for other things and it is easy to train you horse to ignore a reward word like "good horse" because you use it in conversation where it doesn't mean anything to the horse. 

If you try clicker training without training or background, you will have some problems with it. Timing is really important and an understanding of training principles, or you will be training your horse to do things you don't want it to do. You need to know when to click/treat, why you are doing it, what you want to train and how to break it down into very small steps. You need good timing and to be consistent. Clicker training can be used to give a frightened horse confidence, its very hard to use it to make a naughty horse behave except to teach it alternative behaviors, still, I wouldn't recommend starting off with clicker training for a novice owner (or someone that hasn't had training in how to clicker train) and a unruly horse, that could be a disaster. 

I did a lot of reading and some experimenting. I didn't get confident with a clicker until I attended my first clicker training seminar. I went to several of them and it helped me a ton, however I don't consider myself an expert, just have a basis for understanding the principles and technique. There is a LOT to doing it right.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I wonder if someone clicker trained me with chocolate if eventually I could walk around clicking and never want real chocolate again.


----------



## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I wonder if someone clicker trained me with chocolate if eventually I could walk around clicking and never want real chocolate again.


ROTFL! I think the same thing!! Isn't it like Pavlov's dog? Won't they eventually say "Hey, lady!! You clicked! Now give me a treat NOW!!!!"


----------



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Annsni said:


> ROTFL! I think the same thing!! Isn't it like Pavlov's dog? Won't they eventually say "Hey, lady!! You clicked! Now give me a treat NOW!!!!"


You are supposed to give a real treat every time you click. Now, you might start to space out the clicks as the animal gets trained.... You don't praise and make over your pet every time it obeys you, of course, same with clicks/treats. More when you are training, less when your pet knows what you want, but every so often. 

I do have a funny training story though!

One day my daughter and I decided to experiment with clicker training to practice our timing. We thought we'd use M and M's for treats. We were going to try simultaneous training - I'd "train" her to do some simple behavior, she'd train me at the same time. I watched and caught her doing the behavior I wanted and, when I clicked, she IMMEDIATELY clicked me! Her timing was impeccable, I knew she was training me to click her! lol She got lots of clicks and so did I, we had a great time. mmmmm, chocolate!


----------



## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Henwhisperer said:


> Ya think?
> 
> Willingness has nothing to do with respect. What I mean by that is if you like your job and you are willing to do it, do you also have to respect your boss? No, because you like what you do and are willing to do it.
> 
> Pressure and release have everything to do with fear and nothing to do with willingness.


My friend Larry is one of the best trainers in the country. He gets thousands of dollars to fix horses that were originally "trained" with these methods.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I think most of the people who subscribe to these methods are newbies with starry-eyed Disneyesque ideas of what horses are like.


----------



## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

You use cues before the correction. The horse learns to respond to the cue without ever getting the correction. A horse has an incredibly sensitive nervous system. I'm sure you have all seen the following, but have you ever thought about it; a fly lands on a horse, and the horse twitches one tiny little muscle where the fly lands. Can you do this? The whole point of cues and correction is to both sensitize, and desensitize a horse. You desensitize him about having the saddle, headgear, clothing, etcetera touching his body, you desensitize him to sound, like a blaring car horn, gravel trucks, gun shots, and so on. At the same time you sensitize him to the lightest leg cue, the barely perceptible touch of a rein, the slightest movement of a bit, the sound of "whoa" or a cluck or a blown kiss.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Henwhisperer said:


> Pressure and release have everything to do with fear and nothing to do with willingness.


I'm afraid I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this statement. As I've mentioned, I do use some natural horsemanship methods and have done clinics in the past with Ray Hunt (now deceased) who is far and away the best NH trainer I've ever watched work and who is widely respected in the NH community.

One of the first statements he would make at a clinic ... and would repeat time after time during the clinic ... was "make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard" ... he would tell the clinic riders to ask for what they wanted by applying pressure (leg, weight, hand, whichever was most appropriate) and at just the slightest attempt in the right direction should be rewarded by a release of pressure.

Yes ... pressure. Yes ... reward by releasing that pressure.

I never saw a horse in one of those clinics that responded to these methods with fear.


----------



## Henwhisperer (Nov 19, 2009)

SFM in KY said:


> I never saw a horse in one of those clinics that responded to these methods with fear.


Well I have which is why I switched to clicker training. 

Instead of "make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard" how about horse chooses the correct answer. 

I gave a clicker training clinic at the end of the summer. The lady who owns the stable, a die hard Parelli fan, said that clicker training was going to be another arrow in her quiver of horsemanship skills. Her gelding would do anything she asked him to do but with no real joy or enthusiasm. The last report she gave me was that he was excited about doing what she asked.

For the owner of the horse who started this thread with a cry for help: the horse you have is the horse you have. Right now, today, you could change it all by exploring positive reinforcement. Don't let the naysayers influence you because they don't understand it.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Henwhisperer said:


> Well I have which is why I switched to clicker training.


Then respectfully, I suggest you are watching the *wrong* natural horsemanship trainers. I have seen a number of clinics (and ridden in several) given by Ray Hunt and Buck Brannaman, both highly respected by NH professionals and have never seen a horse in one of those clinics respond with fear. Confusion, until they understood what was being asked, but I've never seen one of the horses afraid.




Henwhisperer said:


> Instead of "make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard" how about horse chooses the correct answer.


That is the underlying purpose of this kind of training, teaching the horse _how_ to choose the correct answer. If you make the right thing easy and reward the slightest try by releasing the pressure, then the horse *realizes* that he is going in the desired direction. The next time the rider asks for that response, the horse cooperates by 'finding' the right response more quickly and more positively. Every time he is rewarded for the correct response by the release of the pressure (which can be as minimal as closing the hand on one rein ... the goal is for the lightest pressure possible to gain a response) then the learning process has been reinforced.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

LittleDoe: I suggest you search the posts on the equine board here to see what the backgrounds are of the posters who've given you advice. It's easy to be a newbie on a board and claim all kinds of experience.
Good luck to you and be careful.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I think most of the people who subscribe to these methods are newbies with starry-eyed Disneyesque ideas of what horses are like.


Exactly. "Hey that horse just kicked me in the face." Click Click ound:


----------



## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Hen, have you ever held a child's hand while crossing the street?


----------



## Henwhisperer (Nov 19, 2009)

Ah, this isn't my first forum rodeo, folks. I came here with only good intentions, to lend a hand to a horsewoman with too much horse on her hand. I have given nothing but solid advice and have been met mostly with know-it-all responses. That's cool. Like I said, not my first rodeo. 

Irish Pixie, I find your sig line quite ironic given the conversation:


> Never stand begging for that which you have the power to earn. -Miguel De Cervantes


Horses have the capacity to learn and earn a paycheck, but it sounds as if many of you would rather have your horse beg to be left alone, release. 

Peace and grace. I will not be back.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

If you had said try clicker training on anything other than an aggressive horse you wouldn't have received the reception you did. Clicking at a kicking horse is pretty much spitting in the wind and it's asking to get seriously hurt. No one is advocating a beating.

Again, a horse is a big animal with a little brain that will hurt you if it doesn't respect you.


----------



## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Henwhisperer said:


> Ah, this isn't my first forum rodeo, folks. I came here with only good intentions, to lend a hand to a horsewoman with too much horse on her hand. I have given nothing but solid advice and have been met mostly with know-it-all responses. That's cool. Like I said, not my first rodeo.
> 
> Irish Pixie, I find your sig line quite ironic given the conversation:
> 
> ...


LOL, you aint the first hit-and-run know it all to show up at _this rodeo._


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I still think they need a smilie that is hitting its head against a brick wall. The hair pulling one just doesn't quite do it.


----------



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

> Someone said that the click is a pressure and the treat is the release - that is NOT clicker training


GrannyCarol, you misread my words. Here is what I wrote, 



> I believe that a click is pressure but a treat isn't release and leave it at that.


Clicker IS pressure, Treat IS NOT a release. 

Henwhisperer, you provided a link to a girl teaching a horse to respect her space. Did you watch it? Do you really believe that horse is being helped?? Did you watch and compare the two vids I offered? What are your opinions of these handlers? 

Lot of folks mention Ray Hunt, and his ways of correcting a horse. Here's a very useful belief he passed on.

"if it's too late it's punishment"

Ray gave his life trying to get folks to *do less sooner*, rather than more later. Tom Dorrance told us he put the tape on his gloves *before* he wore a hole in them.

How I would like to hear Tom or Ray's opinion of what they would find useful in "positive re-enforcement" training. I can't imagine a horseman on a ranch that would admit to anything like clicker training for horses. All I've got are written words and a few videos of how they did things. Fortunately today we have many good examples of the masters legacy. The video of Ricky Bell is one such fellow. Watch it closely and you will see a lot of Ray Hunts teachings in practice.

I sure hope the OP finds the better path with her horse. I hate to hear of anyone being kicked. That could be life threatening and I believe some good help from a more experienced person is needed. Sooner, rather than later!!


Have fun, be safe

Jack


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Henwhisperer said:


> Don't let the naysayers influence you because they don't understand it.


Well that's a heck of a thing to say! I guess all us ignorant slobs should be glad you came along to educate us! I mean, someone who ONLY does clicker training and hangs with die-hard Parrelli fans - how have we ever managed to stumble around without such wisdom?

There's a good lesson for the OP. Be careful who you take advice from, and always consult with more then one trainer. Be careful, and best of luck to you Littledoe.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I've used clicker training for trick training but not to train ground manners. For something as basic and important as ground manners I want to relate to the horse in his native tongue. Or as close as I can simulate with my dissimilar anatomy.

The click isn't pressure. The click is "yes! good boy!". It is a split-second, pinpoint praise that allows you to be surgically precise when applying positive reinforcement to desired behavior AT THE INSTANT that it is exhibited. 

There is little that one horse asks of another horse. They have few ways of communicating entreaty, but many ways of communicating "go away" or "don't you dare". A strictly reward-based language system is unnatural for horses, whereas a pressure-based language system is more readily understood. During ground work with a very sensitive horse, the "pressure" can be a light as directing your eyes at the horse's hip or changing the angle of your torso. All the aids we use when riding are simply varying forms and applications of pressure. We lay the rein against the side of the neck or shift our weight to convey what we desire and the well-trained horse responds... not out of fear or discomfort, but because they are willingly taking direction from their rider.

I feel there is an appropriate time and place for clicker training horses. I do not feel that clicker training is appropriate when dealing with disrespectful behavior from a horse. When it comes down to it, at the most basic, a horse MUST respect you or he will injure you when the SHTF. He is just too large and strong to risk doing otherwise. You cannot control all aspects of your envronment, but you CAN control how the horse views you.


----------



## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

SFM in KY said:


> Yes ... pressure. Yes ... reward by releasing that pressure.
> 
> I never saw a horse in one of those clinics that responded to these methods with fear.


I too have a mare that does not respond well to this - if she is already unsure of something. My trainer successfully trained her to flip out at the sight of the trailer, rather than get on it, using pressure and release.

Now, it is most likely that the trainer did not handle the situation properly - she went too quickly in assuming that a step forward meant acceptance of loading when I believe it only meant (to my mare) that she was not backing away....I think it probably should have been a 2 hour training session v. the 10 minute loading success she expected.

I think clicker training can be very useful with a smart, reactive horse like mine. I suppose loading onto a trailer can be, to some extent, trick training...but I think in her case she would respond well to clicker training simply as another tool for working with, and trusting, her handler. 

However, it is not a substitute for simple, appropriate ground manners. I disagree with the use of clicker training to train the horse to turn it's head away from the handler (as in the video). That sort of behavior requires a "positive punishment" as opposed to a "positive reinforcement". (You are in my space - I will smack you with my crop). I use my elbows and pointy index fingers to move my horses out of my space if I need to. But I am fair about it - if they respond, I stop. The woman trying to teach a yearling to lead - yikes! That should have been started when the baby was a few weeks old and the handler could physically move (or correct) the foal when it doesn't respond correctly.

But other things can be trained successfully with clickers - I know someone that taught their big horse to drop its head for bridling with a clicker....obviously pressure/release will also work for this, but in her case she trained a verbal command for faster bridling; the horse responded well, the owner had fun teaching it, they had some bonding moments. It's not a bad thing.

Clickers are just another tool in the tool box...but not a substitute for "positive punishment" when necessary. (And that only means applying an undesirable stimulus (pop of lead, smack with crop, barking a loud "hey"), it does not have to be "punishment" to hurt or scare the animal.)


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

offthegrid said:


> Now, it is most likely that the trainer did not handle the situation properly - she went too quickly in assuming that a step forward meant acceptance of loading when I believe it only meant (to my mare) that she was not backing away....I think it probably should have been a 2 hour training session v. the 10 minute loading success she expected.


I have seen situations like this and it happens with *trainers* who really do not understand the methods well and do not understand how to read a horse accurately. Natural horsemanship, like any other method of training, can be applied badly by incompetent trainers. I've seen them and I've run at least one of them out of my round corral ...

An incompetent trainer can cause problems with a horse regardless of the method they are using.


----------



## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

SFM in KY said:


> I have seen situations like this and it happens with *trainers* who really do not understand the methods well and do not understand how to read a horse accurately. Natural horsemanship, like any other method of training, can be applied badly by incompetent trainers. I've seen them and I've run at least one of them out of my round corral ...
> 
> An incompetent trainer can cause problems with a horse regardless of the method they are using.


Yes, I agree. 

Although I don't think she was entirely incompetent with all horses (she was not a natural horsemanship person at all; and has lots of experience with different types of horses), but clearly she did not read THIS horse very well. 

Famous last words were "I've never had a horse that didn't load using this technique".


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

offthegrid said:


> Famous last words were "I've never had a horse that didn't load using this technique".


And you won't find a truly experienced trainer that will say something like this. They have worked with enough horses that they know you can always find an exception to every rule.


----------



## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

> I too have a mare that does not respond well to this - if she is already unsure of something. My trainer successfully trained her to flip out at the sight of the trailer, rather than get on it, using pressure and release.


And people wreck cars... It's not the car's fault  We all misjudge sometimes and if you misjudge your speed and the sharpness of a corner, bad things might happen. Same with misjudging a horses current state of mind.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Henwhisperer, I respect the fact that a certain training method works well for you but that doesn't mean it's the only way nor does it mean that everybody else is wrong. 

Realistically, there are a lot of good trainers out there and not everybody does it the same way but all acheive the same results but in my opinion, telling a good trainer that they're doing it wrong or they have to do it another way is no more reasonable than tell you that you're doing it all wrong.


----------



## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Littledoe, the argument about clicker training is doing nothing to help you. Put a stud chain on the horse.

But, like any kind of equipment, you can't just put it on and then get into a sticky situation. The horse must be trained to the equipment so that he knows what the correct response is to that equipment and that command. So you must train the horse to the stud chain in a safe environment where he is focused on you and willing to learn what you want. Then, you can gradually work him through the sticky situation because he will understand what you are asking.

I have not run into very many horses that are not interested in pleasing their partner and most of them will work for praise.

My horses are trained to know that "quit" means they had better stop what they are doing. It can be soft (usually) or harsh if they are really doing something wrong.

I put a stud chain under the chin, because I have seen damage to the delicate bones in the nostril area and some bumps in the calcium as a result. I don't want to risk marring the profile of the face if there is an accident.

My horses are trained to "stand" which is the equivalent of "stay" for a dog. They have been taught "come to me" in the round pen when they are lunge. The stud chain training is "stand", then pull one click of the chain and say "come to me". That is very little tightening of the chain and the horse already knows to come toward me and the release of the chain is immediate. The light should go on pretty quickly, but have patience and make sure the horse really gets it. (not clicks like in clicker training, but the chain makes a click sound as it snags and then releases in the halter ring.)

Then you want to do a few double clicks and then triple clicks, so the horse really gets it that pressure ends when he steps forward and not back. You aren't going to gain anythng by punishing the horse, nor by beating him up by brutalizing him with the chain and forcing him to back up all the while beating him up (like I see stud chains used in anger too frequently)

Away from the problem spot, walk the horse, tell him to stand, then asking to come forward. When he hs mastered it, start for the pasture. Do your exercise going out part way and coming back. Go out further each time. Back and forth.

As soon as you see the first twitch of disobedience, tell him to "quit", ask him to stand and then come to you. He can't kick you if he is facing you. He should understand by that time that if he tosses his head or backs up, the chain will tighten and be unpleasant. He should know what those commands mean and understand what you are asking.

Be sure to praise him every time he does it right. Don't take him out and release him every time. Make him walk back and forth, sometimes walking him out to the pasture and then back to his stall so he doesn't get to play every time. Never release him to play until he has walked out with manners.

If you prefer, you can train the horse to back up with pressure on the chain. He will still be facing you, so can't kick. But I prefer to have the horse come towards me, because it is useful for loading into a trailer or getting the horse into a strange area he is uncertain about. I use something else to train the horse to back up and I don't want my horses flying backwards every time they think they are in trouble.

I think your horse is just bucking because he has the habit of acting out at that spot.  You just need to substitute a different habit. Walking to the pasture should not mean play time, it should mean time to work, with a nice reward if he does it correctly.


----------



## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

Henwhisperer said:


> Willingness has nothing to do with respect. What I mean by that is if you like your job and you are willing to do it, do you also have to respect your boss? No, because you like what you do and are willing to do it.


Horses aren't people so I don't think you can accurately compare human responses with animal ones. Anthropomorphism is awfully easy. Saying that, I think that we do what our bosses say out of respect for his/her position if not for the person. 




Henwhisperer said:


> Instead of "make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard" how about horse chooses the correct answer.


How do you teach a horse to make the correct answer if it doesn't know the wrong one? Heck, how does a horse know the correct answer? If your child repeatedly runs out in the street do you swat the child (or discipline in some other way) for running in the street or do you click when they stand beside you? If left to the child's own devices one might end up with a dead kid.


----------



## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

One thing to consider with clicker training is that there's the assumption that the horse wants to please. I've known a few horses who definitely don't. If the horse doesn't want to please -- or doesn't want a treat -- clicker training isn't going to work, period. 

Clicker training works great with dogs. Dogs want to please. There are, quite simply, a lot of horses who don't. 

OP, in addition to the stud chain, carry a long dressage whip with you. The mere presence of the whip may be enough to stop the behavior. If not, use it as an extension of your arm to get the horse out of your space. You don't want to BEAT the horse, but if the horse is crowding you, a swift tap with the dressage whip will reinforce that he's in your space and he needs to pay attention. He can't kick you if he's not crowding you. 

And be careful. I've seen someone nearly killed by a kick by a yearling that broke a couple of ribs and lacerated her liver. Wasn't even a big horse -- yearling arab. 

(I would add -- I've used a clicker with a horse simply as a 'pay attention to me' cue. I trained him that the click, which was a distinct sound he didn't hear at any other time, would be followed by a cue. He was very scatterbrained and hyper vigilant about his surroundings, and it was hard to get him to keep his mind on his job.)


----------



## anita_fc (May 24, 2008)

I have used clicker training with dogs for years. I find it a useful aid for teaching new behaviors. However, I follow my husband's words of wisdom when it comes to giant breed dogs and livestock: Never let them discover that they are bigger than you are. Once an animal learns to use its size to its advantage, it becomes a dangerous situation. I would follow the very good advice given for re-teaching respect for your space.

Anita from Idaho
Dan-Ani Pygmy Goats
www.gndt.net/dan-ani


----------



## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

southerngurl said:


> And people wreck cars... It's not the car's fault  We all misjudge sometimes and if you misjudge your speed and the sharpness of a corner, bad things might happen. Same with misjudging a horses current state of mind.


Agreed. State of mind AND temperament. My mare is sensitive and reactive and responds best to simple, quiet and steady cues and a patient handler.

My point is only that some horses could learn many things with clicker training, not just because they are willing to please, but because it's a simple tool to help shape their behavior. 

But I don't think it is reasonable to teach them things like "personal space" and "don't be a bully" with a clicker; I'm not sure that they would really understand the "cue" -- I don't want to have to ask my horses to NOT crowd me. That is why I think a positive punishment works in that situation better than a positive reinforcement. IF you crowd me, THEN I will pop you with a dressage whip. Not IF YOU DON'T crowd me I will GIVE you something.

However, more refined training could easily be done with a clicker in addition to other refined aids in and out of the saddle. Commands that require a single and specific response could be taught using a clicker - e.g. lifting feet, lowering head, backing up or stepping up into a trailer.


----------



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

levi1739 - sorry about the misquote in my response. I was trying to say that, when properly reinforced, the click is a REWARD, not a PRESSURE, because the horse is conditioned to find it rewarding by the association with something they want and enjoy. I didn't say that well at all, trying to hurry I fear. Sure, if the horse isn't conditioned, the click might be stressful. 

One thing I see though is that people say that dogs clicker train well because they want to please... how about cats? chickens? dolphins? Goldfish? Pretty much all the movie trick animals are trained with clickers and all the water acts too. It isn't about desire to please, actually, its about spending a LOT of time properly conditioning the animal to respond how you want it to. There is a lot to learn and good timing is critical, or you reinforce the wrong behaviors and have big problems. I don't recommend a person start clicker training with a problem horse, too easy to get hurt. Learn it on another, smaller, safer animal and get proper training. It can be a great tool, but many think they can teach how to use it on the internet, that would be very unlikely. There are tons of "clicker trainers" out there that have vague ideas what it is and how to use it. Done right, I'm sure even the problem horse could be helped, I sure wouldn't recommend that in this situation. It's very good for fearful, reactive animals, you have to be pretty clever to work with one that is pushy and aggressive.


----------



## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

(beccachow digs up her clicker and proceeds to her daughter's goldfish bowl; goldfish looks at her in fishy confusion. Epic fail).


----------



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Beccachow - surprisingly enough I do have a friend that clicker trained a goldfish to do a couple of simple behaviors. She is quite likely a much more brilliant trainer than I am! 

However, the picture you paint is pretty funny!


----------



## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Here you go, Beccachow, GrannyCarol;
http://www.amazon.com/Train-Goldfish-Dolphin-Training-Techniques/dp/0533112923

I used to work at SeaWorld (doing nothing spectacular) and was passing friends with a couple of the trainers. And, being an employee I got to use the library there, so I can tell you that is a very good book.

And speaking of dolphins and goldfish and such, clicker training depends on them being hungry and in the mood. Goldfish and chickens and the like are actually easier, as they are ALWAYS hungry and simple minds do conditioned responses better.

Do you know what happens if a dolphin is either not hungry or not in the mood? *Not a thing*. I've seen them cancel a show because a whale just didn't feel like it.
That is _not_ an option for my dog, when I say Down and there is traffic in front of him, or for my horse when she wants to buck and kick and I am at the end of the lead rope.
There is no *have to* in clicker training. 
Which works just fine at SeaWorld, no one's life depends on this particular dolphin jumping through a hoop right this very second. I don't have that luxury with my dogs and horses. My life or theirs may very well depend on them knowing that they have to, and they have to right now.


----------



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I sure wouldn't recommend clicker training for this situation, although its a tool I enjoy using with my dog to teach her stuff. I've seen clicker trained dogs that were very reliable in their behaviors, way more so than any dog I've ever trained, so I know it can be done. At the core though, I'm pretty old fashioned and expect certain things from my dogs (and my horse when I had her). I know what you mean.


----------



## littledoe (May 26, 2006)

Wow! I haven't had a chance to get to my computer for a few days so I was pleasantly surprised to see so many helpful responses. My thanks to you all for your helpfulness. After reading, I really think that my problem is that he is definitely just running over me because he has been able to. I think he had us fooled because when I brought him home the kids could ride him around and just about anybody could ride him. So I thought I had a 'safe' horse. A friend of mine did some ground work with him and she said that he is a bit of a monster on the lunge line and definitely stubborn. I am thinking of having someone come and help me with learning how to work him on the ground. I did try stopping before he kicked me and jerking on the lead a bit....not that particular day. I also realized that he had gotten a tad ahead of me. No other horses act bad in that area. Plus I have taken two different paths and it is always the same distance away from that pasture that he acts bad. Maybe he is acting like a stud towards the mare that is over there.
I can't thank you guys enough for all your advice and concern! I will definitely learn how to ground work this horse and I am employing help from my friend up the road. She seems to do a pretty good job with him.

Thank you again!
Mia


----------



## Work horse (Apr 7, 2012)

The problem with clicker training in horses, is that the foundation of clicker training is *trial and error.* Once the horse offers (trials) the correct behaviour, it is rewarded. It may *trial* many undesirable behaviours before it trials the correct one. This can lead to people getting hurt, or to unintentionally teaching the horse a really bad trick. 

You need to have a good handle on basic ground manners, respect for personal space, etc, before you have your horse trialing random behaviours to get a treat. You don't want your horse thinking, "Maybe I should paw? Maybe I should swing my head around? Maybe I should rear? Maybe I should barge forward?".

There are many interesting training articles on Dr. Andrew McLean's website, written from a scientific point of view, that address the real "nuts & bolts" of training. I highly recommend reading them. http://www.aebc.com.au/articles


----------



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

littledoe said:


> Wow! I haven't had a chance to get to my computer for a few days so I was pleasantly surprised to see so many helpful responses. My thanks to you all for your helpfulness. After reading, I really think that my problem is that he is definitely just running over me because he has been able to. I think he had us fooled because when I brought him home the kids could ride him around and just about anybody could ride him. So I thought I had a 'safe' horse. A friend of mine did some ground work with him and she said that he is a bit of a monster on the lunge line and definitely stubborn. I am thinking of having someone come and help me with learning how to work him on the ground. I did try stopping before he kicked me and jerking on the lead a bit....not that particular day. I also realized that he had gotten a tad ahead of me. No other horses act bad in that area. Plus I have taken two different paths and it is always the same distance away from that pasture that he acts bad. Maybe he is acting like a stud towards the mare that is over there.
> I can't thank you guys enough for all your advice and concern! I will definitely learn how to ground work this horse and I am employing help from my friend up the road. She seems to do a pretty good job with him.
> 
> Thank you again!
> Mia


 
I'm real glad you found somebody to help you Mia. Sometimes just a little bit of help can help you find a good change in you horses and you. Never be too proud to seek assistance.

Something I've noticed about horses in the act of kicking out. They are always pretty straight through the spine and their noses are pointed away from the handler, while their hips are moving toward that person. A fundamental concept in handliing a reactionary horse is to keep the horse's nose pointed toward the handler, which causes the hips to move away from that person. If a horse is tied to a fence pole and walks away from it, he will automatically tip his nose to the pole and move his hindquarters away from it when he reaches the end of the rope. A real excited horse might experience a very hard sudden pull when he reaches the end of the rope. Poles are excellent horse trainers.

Again, I'm glad you found some help. Would like to hear some good stories about your progress.


Have fun, be safe

Jack


----------



## littledoe (May 26, 2006)

Thank you, I will definitely look at that website. I have never struck any of my horses but I have also been too much of a pushover for him without realizing that he was building up to kicking me. I just didn't see the early signs that he was about to become aggressive. I watched a training with Julie Goodnight and she said that a squeal means aggression is about to ensue. That was the first thing he did. The second time he squealed, shook his head and bucked. The third time he kicked me. I don't think the kick was aimed 'at' me. I just happened to be in the way when he got excited. However, it frightens me to think that one of my children could have been leading this horse that I had 'trusted.' I'm glad it was me and not one of them. I'm not even glad it was me... I have led quite a few horses and have never had one kick me like this. I guess the whole thing has just confused me how a horse can act so gentle all the time and then blow up in a particular spot. It's just weird.

I will check out the website and few others mentioned here.
Thank you again
Mia


----------



## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Otter said:


> Do you know what happens if a dolphin is either not hungry or not in the mood? *Not a thing*. I've seen them cancel a show because a whale just didn't feel like it.
> That is _not_ an option for my dog, when I say Down and there is traffic in front of him, or for my horse when she wants to buck and kick and I am at the end of the lead rope.
> There is no *have to* in clicker training.
> Which works just fine at SeaWorld, no one's life depends on this particular dolphin jumping through a hoop right this very second. I don't have that luxury with my dogs and horses. My life or theirs may very well depend on them knowing that they have to, and they have to right now.


Clicker training is training a behavior, using positive reinforcement, that's all. It's not the solution for every behavior, and it's not the best solution for every animal. That doesn't mean that there is a "problem" with clicker training.

Curious what your method for training dogs is that results in perfect responses. I don't think there is such a method, period, since there are so many factors that can influence them at any given time.

However, I use a hunting-type "shock" collar on one of my dogs when he is off leash. I trained him to know the command "come" using positive reinforcement. I know he knows the word, and the correct response. But in his case I also use a negative punishment - if he doesn't respond, he gets a tone, and then zap. As a hunting breed, the positive reinforcement he gets from hunting is very often greater than any positive reinforcement I can offer (treats). 

I think I'm using these terms correctly...20 years since my Psychology of Learning class....four options: Positive Reinforcement, Negative Reinforcement, Positive Punishment, Negative Punishment...

It is unlikely any one of these options will cover everything you want to train any type of animal or person...


----------



## littledoe (May 26, 2006)

Thank you, Jack. I knew I was in the wrong place when he kicked me. I guess I had just gotten too comfortable with this easy going horse. My mistake. I shouldn't do that with any horse. The other thing I noticed was that we had put him on something called QUITT because he was chewing some wood in the barn. He's not a cribber. He would chew my plywood panels out of boredom I guess. I think that stuff made him crazy! His disposition changed quite a bit while he was on that supplement. Since I have taken him off the supplement, he seems back to his old self. Weird. I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced this. He still needs to be taught manners on the ground and I've been working on that. I read that the best way to teach a horse to stop is to teach him to back properly. So, we have been working on that every day. He's picking it up fast and I've noticed that he halts almost immediately when I tell him to now. I get in his pen and do the parelli fingertip yielding with him. Before he is allowed to leave the pen for grazing now he has to back at my cues. He's doing well with this. I'm very pleased. 

I thank you all again. Hopefully, I will have a very well mannered horse when all is said and done. So far, so good.
Mia


----------

