# hvacs have to go...need better options



## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

I'm looking for a better option for us, but not sure what i'm looking for exactly. so, it's making my google hunts not very productive. thought some on here could help me out with some good keywords, ideas, or links for forum threads, so I could get on track.

here's the issue:

we bought and old fixer-upper a few months ago. we have two hvac units (upstair/downstair) and all ducting in place. problem is they're pretty old. had two separate hvac guys out here to look em over and fix the a/c part (cause both were flooding water). a/c works now, though i'm sure not efficiently.

both guys told me they don't know if the heating parts are reliable because of excess rust and parts they cannot repair/replace. they both said the units do not have any safety controls built in to shutdown if carbon monoxide leaks. both units use propane.

I also have a firebox (don't know real word) outside that can be used to heat the water (and I think heat the house). don't know if they are even run right or safely. don't trust previous owners decisions for house upkeep. turns out we've discovered that when they said they'd "run lines" out to all our outbuilding for get them electrical, that actually meant they had buried extension cords in the dirt and across the pond.  awesome. I know.

there is an old fireplace with a propane insert in the front of the house downstairs. don't know if it's safe/works. I want to have the chimney checked to see if it can be used safely with wood or a pellet stove insert. I also want to put a stand alone pellet stove in the back downstairs. but neither of these would be tied into the ductwork of the house.

the upstairs hvac is actually in my daughter's closet which I don't like. and a huge part of me wants to just rip both out and toss them without buying new hvac.

we already don't like to use the a/c. I only turn them on if it's really hot and we're having company that might want it--not very often. this is our third summer keeping it off almost 100% of the time.

I don't know what to expect one or two pellet stoves downstairs will do as far as handling our heating needs all winter. and, although we're really good with the heat, we are not champs when it comes to being cold in the house (yet)!

i really don't want hvac because of cost to buy and cost to use. and i really don't want the hvac unit in my daughter's closet.

if i have to replace them both i'm guessing i'm in for $12,000 to $20,000. i'd really like to find some other options. especially energy efficient ones. we're working on lowering our electricity use as much as possible so we can buy the smallest solar power system possible to meet our usage needs.

thanks for reading. i hope some people can get me some names of products or keywords or links to other threads. thanks again.


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## CJ (May 10, 2002)

I'm not an expert but do some research on mini split units, or "zoned" heating and cooling. So far what I've read these seem pretty great.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Location? What works in FL may not work well in CO.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

I just got a new heatpump, ac and heat and I can tie my England add on wood furnace into the duct work. Just could not afford propane any more. I used Heatman under $4000.00, Im on the East coast area. They used my old duct work. unhooked and left the old system in place incase any one in the future wants to hook back up to propane.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

western ky is location


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

In KY, there are going to be a few times you need AC, especially if someone is sick and excess heat would weaken them further. If you aren't using them much, then efficiency is less of an issue than the cost of replacing. Other than maybe buying a $100 window unit, I wouldn't mess with that. All mechanical equipment has a lifespan, and you would be better off saving the money for a replacement down the road.

Pellet stoves can be fine, but you then get locked into pellets or corn as a fuel. Being that you are in Kentucky, you might consider a multi-fuel furnace that can burn coal or wood or propane as needed. This is an example:
http://www.yukon-eagle.com/FURNACES/HUSKYOILWOODGASWOOD/tabid/55/Default.aspx

There is a large advantage to a solidly built true multi-fuel unit. Note that the one I link to can operate when the power is off. With multi-fuel if propane becomes unavailable, like last winter, you still have other options. You can also choose to use the cheapest fuel available at the time. As important, insurance companies are going to see a unit that can work without tending and will thus minimize frozen pipes.

FWIW, propane is a little less likely to have carbon monoxide problems than oil. Carbon monoxide detectors are easily available in big box stores, and I wouldn't live in a home that has combustion in it without one, especially with an older heating unit, and doubly so with coal.

A key component of planning is planning for times when you might not have the strength to lug pellets, or the ability to have power for a week after a snowstorm and cold snap. Here we can get by easily with a propane wall heater, but further north I would be looking at real multi-fuel (not just corn or cherry pits) for security.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

I have to agree with Harry about the AC. If you aren't going to use it that much, why worry about its efficiency? 
And if you are only going to have it on, on occasions when you have company over, you could go ahead and do away with the one upstairs and the closet also anyway, as far as that goes. 
No as far as the heat, the way you speak of the firebox outside, it sounds to me like you have an outside boiler and if this is in good shape, you might be in a lot better situation than you think you are. 
Google out side wood fired boilers/furnaces and see if you can find anything that looks like what you have. 
Some of these boilers cost over 10K and while there has been some decision on here about whether a inside woodstove or a boiler is better, I myself like the idea of an outside wood fired boiler. Actually I am building one myself to heat with. 
The one you have should have a name plate on it so you could check into exactly what you do have. 
Good Luck

Godspeed

Ranger


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

update:

I have an appointment to get a quote for a mini split ductless ac and heat system this week. we'll see what they say.

i know we don't really use the ac now. but, when my dad can no longer live on his own, he'll be here with me. and, in that case i'm sure we'll have to use it. but, i'm not opposed to considering the suggestion of not worrying about the ac efficiency.

i'm just trying to get my head wrapped around what my options are and make sure i'm not overlooking good ideas.

a few years ago when i started really trying to cut our usage/needs i didn't even have any idea how many gallons of water we used, or what home insulation was about or that i could even track how many kwh different things used. so it's been a real process getting smart about it.

started small with plug in powered items, but now i'm on to big stuff like the water heating and home heating and cooling.

the firebox outside is completely overgrown with weeds around it. as soon as hubby can cut a path i'll look for a label and see if i can figure out exactly what it is.


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## Blackwolfe (Sep 9, 2009)

Look into getting a whole house attic fan. In the summer just open some windows and turn it on and pull in cool air from outside.

Use a couple of multi-fuel stove's down stairs, rip out the old havc and scrap it, open up short ducks from top of rooms on bottom floor to bottom of walls of the rooms above them and with the right use of a window or attic vent it will pull the heat up through the house.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

we actually have a whole house fan. sheesh, so much going on I haven't even thought about it since we fixed it. (it was venting into the unfinished ceilings of the closets.) it seems to run fine. haven't really used it cause we've been good with just the window open and using the window blinds when we need to block the sun. i'm going to run it tonight and see what it does and how it changes the temp/comfort in the house. it's kinda loud.

anyone know how I can check how much kwh it pulls or any advice for how long people typically run them? all the time? just for a couple hours?


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

They typically are 1 or 1.5 hp motors. With inefficiencies, figure about 750 to 1000 watts. If the motor is smaller, it could be as low as 300 watts, but I would put 500 watts as a reasonable minimum of anything effective.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

gibbsgirl, they make a meter that has a couple of arms on it that you can buy at any Lowes, Home Depot, or place like that for 20-30 bucks to check the amperage with. 
What you do is get one of the lines going to the fan, not the ground, but the hot or the neutral wire and clamp the little arms around it and turn the fan or what ever on and the meter will tell you how many amps you are drawing. 
If it uses 120 volts, you multiply the number of amps by 120 and that will tell you how many watts you are using and there are 1,000 watts in a kwh. 
Across the country a Kwh is selling for about a dame to 12 or 13 cents. You can check that by dividing the cost of the electricity you used last month by the number of Kwh's used. 

Godspeed

Ranger


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## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

gibbsgirl said:


> ...
> both guys told me they don't know if the heating parts are reliable because of excess rust and parts they cannot repair/replace. they both said the units do not have any safety controls built in to shutdown if carbon monoxide leaks. both units use propane.
> ...
> the upstairs hvac is actually in my daughter's closet which I don't like. and a huge part of me wants to just rip both out and toss them without buying new hvac.
> ...


The rusty and non replaceable parts is a valid concern. Unless they are talking about very new units, I haven't seen any CO sensors/controls in gas furnaces. Even ventless units only have an oxygen depletion sensor, not CO sensor/control. 

Take a look at this site for prices on the hardware itself. Alpine Home Air Products For two new decent quality units, complete with A/C, you're looking at about $4000 each. That gets you 95% efficient furnaces, and a 13 SEER A/C.

One question I have is why don't you want the furnace unit in the closet? Safety or space? If you go to a hot water air exchange unit with a boiler, you can tie the outdoor wood stove into the system. No combustion in the daughters closet, so it would be safer. If you install a CO monitor in the closet/bedroom, I don't see a safety issue, especially with new units. If you went with the hot water system, the size of the blower unit would also be decreased, so more space in the closet. Why are there two heating units? Was the second floor a rental unit at one time? Is there some reason you can't tie the ductwork from the second floor into the first floor's?

I would have to know more about the house design before commenting on the duct work possibilities. Furnace return duct openings by the pellet stoves would draw in the warm air to get circulated through the house. Replacing the furnace(s) with hot water coil units, and adding a boiler would let you tie in the outdoor wood boiler to provide heat to the house. Using window AC units, instead of central air... There are many options, and they should cost a lot less than $20k.

Michael


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

well, got my quote today.

$16000 if I do minisplits (3 units, 1 upstairs, 2 downstairs). $15000 if I do hvac replacements. didn't even have any real details to show me what I was specifically buying other than Mitsubishi minisplit or carrier hvac.

ok...here's my quick vent. I get so mad when I meet with contractors. often my husband is gone, so sometimes I think they think i'm an easy mark. also, I know our house looks pretty nice and well kept. but, it's not because we're made of money. it's because I have a husband a dad and my son who know how to do most of the work themselves, so free labor, and me focused on shopping to get good deals on good quality stuff!!!! sheesh. ok, i'm done.

anyway, i'm planning on reading this thread to the guys and also some other info I found on-line. I think the minisplit is probably the best option, but we'll see. the guys kinda rolled their eyes at the bid from the contractor and said they'd look into doing it themselves for me if I get it bought.

still gonna be a little while before I can do it, so i'm gonna keep working my way through everyone's suggestions and info I can find. we've got a barn we're doing emergency overhaul on and that's probably gonna eat up all their spare time for a month or two.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

artificer said:


> One question I have is why don't you want the furnace unit in the closet? Safety or space? Why are there two heating units? Was the second floor a rental unit at one time? Is there some reason you can't tie the ductwork from the second floor into the first floor's?
> 
> 
> Michael


both safety (in case it does leak) and space. my daughter has the smallest room and the hvac takes up most of the closet space. it'd be a lot nicer/neater long term for her to keep up if she gets to have a usable closet like everybody else.

I don't know why there are 2 units, except that maybe the house was ducted and then added on to upstairs. it's story and a half up there anyway and the house is from 1937. as far as I know the ducts are completely separated, so i'd probably have to tear into the walls to try and link them up somewhere, which doesn't sound fun, cause I just finished patch, sand, prime, paint, paneling work and moulding work in almost every room. that's paid for and done now and was a huge family effort the last several weeks.


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