# Pellet stove or not?



## caroline

Okay, here's the thing: I have a 1500 sq ft one story house, well insulated, newer windows and an new 92% energy eff propane furnance. Winters are a bear here and we get a lot of wind plus temps in the 10 below and under for days on end.

My propane bill is killing me. So today I called the local stove store and got some ideas and prices for my size house. A pellet stove to heat my house would cost about 2k and the 700 to install it. The pellets would cost me about 700 for the entire heating 7 months here. If I ammorize the cost of the stove and install over one year (being 7 months) plus 100 a month for pellets, that's 485 a month for the first year. After that it's just the pellets and a cleaning. So around 800 heating for a 7 month period.

My propane has cost me from 1 August to today ( 6.5 months) $1993 so far.
That's 306 a month. and winter is not over---I will need another 600 a they will not deliver less than that.

I keep the heat on 62 at night and 68 during the day. It seems clear to me the pellet stove is the wau to go with the propane as a back up in case i run out of pellets or want to leave the house for a few days.

Someone with good math, please tell me what you think of doing this.

I have the $$ to pay cash for the stove, not gonna suffer there.
Just want to make sure it is the right move...I have had 2 pellets stoves before and loved them. i know how to care for them, so no problem there.


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## woodspirit

I live in the FingerLakes of western NY and put a pellet stove in 2 years ago. I also have a wood furnace and natural gas forced air. I can get 1 or 2 tons of pellets delivered for 20 bucks from Agway. They also stack them for that price in my garage.I purchased my stove in the early spring from Home Depot because they sell them for half price at that time of year. It is very warm in my house even when the temp hit 14 below a few weeks ago.


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## Pikman

My thought is they require electricity to run, and more maintenance than a regular wood stove. As alternative heat, they probably produce plenty of warmth, but when an ice storm takes the power lines down for a couple weeks, you will be without heat unless you have an alternate electrical source.
Just my $.02


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## caroline

Pikman said:


> My thought is they require electricity to run, and more maintenance than a regular wood stove. As alternative heat, they probably produce plenty of warmth, but when an ice storm takes the power lines down for a couple weeks, you will be without heat unless you have an alternate electrical source.
> Just my $.02


Fortunately the electric is all underground here, but that doesn't mean something somewhere can;t go wrong. I don't want to have a wood stove....just me. My daughter loves hers.


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## Windy in Kansas

How much of the propane is being used for hot water, if any? Compare to summer consumption to get some idea.

While you say your home is well insulated, it may be that it is still lacking and your money might be better spent to bring it to the level of super insulation. 

A "New Shelter" magazine by Rodale Press had a feature story years ago about an upstate N.Y. builder that used lots of caulking to seal homes from drafts, and such insulation that the homes didn't even need furnaces in them at all. The heat from the water heater, refrigerator, cooking, people, lighting, etc. provided all that was necessary. 

I think the homes had R-40 in the sidewalls and R-90 in the attic. I don't remember the R rating under the floors. 

Does any company in your area provide infrared home imaging? Might be worth some money to see where you home is leaking so much energy away.


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## CGUARDSMAN

I have a pellet stove and really like the ease of use and the fact I dont have to cut wood...There are several mills here that produce the pellets too so the price is not that bad.. The electricity part is the only issue however in emergencies they do have battery backups that can be purchased...


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## deaconjim

We have a pellet stove, a propane furnace, and a small set of gas logs. What we have found is that when temps are above the mid twenties, the gas logs set on the lowest setting heat the entire house (~2000sf) just fine and we barely see any propane usage. Below 25 or so, we light the pellet stove and keep it near its lowest setting as well. The propane furnace is only used if for some reason one of the other two sources of heat aren't available.

You might want to consider the gas logs. They work without electricity and there's no ash or pellets to store. I don't know about the cost new, but we bought ours off of Craigslist for $400 (including the fireplace).


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## Ross

I agree with Windy, you have a smallish house (hardly tiny but no mansion either) perhaps you need even better insulation or windows. You're not heating in Aug so you do need to know how much the pellet stove would be replacing not just the total propane bill. On the other hand a friend of mine has a pellet stove in a very drafty old farm house and he is heating it cheap with his pellet stove. His oil bill so far when the stove couldn't keep up is under $500. He burns about $5/ day in pellets


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## Big Dreamer

We have a Multi Fuel stove and normally burn corn. This year since the corn prices have went so high we have started using wood pellets again. That is one advantage of the multi fuel stoves you have a choice as the prices fluctuates. We have a 1700 sq ft all electric and have not used the electric heaters this year other than a couple of times when cleaning the stove or if the wife thought the bed room is to cool (which it did get down to around 65 in there when the outside temp was at -13Â°.) My house has good insulation and we still have saved around 150.00 to 200.00 per electric bill per month this winter. I have been tracking it and she thinks I am crazy but likes the reduced bills. SO in short I like mine and like mentioned earlier you can find them on sell soon and that would be a good time to buy. We got ours at about half price in the spring of the year. The best I remember it was around $800.00 and that was about 3 years ago and the last unit they had and bought at TSC store. There are better units but the price did not justify the cost for me.


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## woodspirit

There are pros and cons to any system. Between wood and pellets, here is my take. Both are going to give you that radiant heat that you feel deep in your bones which is so nice in the winter. Firewood has to be cut to size, stacked, stored outside or at least where insects aren't a problem. It is pretty messy to bring indoors, has to be stoked much more often than pellets, needs a larger flue, is going to smoke and create creosote, burns differently depending on the type of wood burned, has to season for many months with one year being generally accepted as the best. and the flue has to be cleaned annually and sometimes more.
Advantages of pellets are they don't need to be cut down, split, stacked away from the house, aren't messy when brought indoors, create little to no smoke, don't need to be seasoned, are easier to light, have very little ash, creosote isn't an issue, stoves are smaller and so are the flues. Having them delivered doesn't involve a dump truck dropping them in the snow and wet waiting to be stacked either. 
As a side note, I've never heard of any kind of house in New York that can be kept warm without a furnace or heat source. If a house were that tight it would be soaking wet with condensation and potentially deadly without air being brought in. It's a nice thought to live in a freezer without heat but I would guess that any builder attempting this would be in a different line of work quickly. Maybe say, as a writer.


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## Jim-mi

One poster mentioned the 'grid down' no heat.....OK . . .so think about a good generator for back up power.
Yup the winter here in Mich has been brutal . . . .I have been thinking about a pellet type back up....

What have you been paying for propane . ??
Reading between the lines of your post makes me think that your being gouged by one of those "not so nice" propane dealers.
I solved that by buying my own tanks . . and shopping for the best propane price.........


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## vallyfarm

I bought a small wood stove the second year after I put up my house for the same thing. Just try to save some $ on my heating bill. That was 6 yrs ago. With the changes in the cost of heating oil for my furnace, the stove & install was paid off in just over 2 yrs.:rock: I have not needed to use anything but the wood stove since. I now don't have a worry in the world about power going down, or prices going up. If you don't want to deal with the mess of a wood stove, instead of pellets, might you try a small coal stove? Loads of heat, never have to worry about a 3 A.M. wake up to re-fill the stove, and very stable fuel costs. One of my friends father has one and says the mess is much less than everyone thinks. Friend put in a pellet stove in his winery...yes a real one!(best friend) and says to do it again he'd use coal. Never worry about klunkers and feed problems,:flame: load it up twice a day and be done. If the coal gets wet there is no problem, no mice/rats chewing on a pallet, etc. Just tossing out a different thought for you. Mike


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## HermitJohn

woodspirit said:


> As a side note, I've never heard of any kind of house in New York that can be kept warm without a furnace or heat source. If a house were that tight it would be soaking wet with condensation and potentially deadly without air being brought in. It's a nice thought to live in a freezer without heat but I would guess that any builder attempting this would be in a different line of work quickly. Maybe say, as a writer.


Its called a super insulated house and would have an air to air heat exchanger system for ventilation. Takes heat from outgoing stale air to heat the incoming fresh air. There are many such houses in existance today. If we as a country had any sense, we would have mandated ALL new construction from late seventies on to be superinsulated. Home heating is a MAJOR energy use in this country. Yes its been around since then, just not super popular as energy got "cheaper" relative to income in eighties and nineties. I am not fond of building codes and govt mandates and such but since we have them anyway, just as well use them to make our national housing as energy efficient as possible.


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## woodspirit

vallyfarm said:


> I bought a small wood stove the second year after I put up my house for the same thing. Just try to save some $ on my heating bill. That was 6 yrs ago. With the changes in the cost of heating oil for my furnace, the stove & install was paid off in just over 2 yrs.:rock: I have not needed to use anything but the wood stove since. I now don't have a worry in the world about power going down, or prices going up. If you don't want to deal with the mess of a wood stove, instead of pellets, might you try a small coal stove? Loads of heat, never have to worry about a 3 A.M. wake up to re-fill the stove, and very stable fuel costs. One of my friends father has one and says the mess is much less than everyone thinks. Friend put in a pellet stove in his winery...yes a real one!(best friend) and says to do it again he'd use coal. Never worry about klunkers and feed problems,:flame: load it up twice a day and be done. If the coal gets wet there is no problem, no mice/rats chewing on a pallet, etc. Just tossing out a different thought for you. Mike


I knew someone that used coal. Spot on


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## woodspirit

HermitJohn said:


> Its called a super insulated house and would have an air to air heat exchanger system for ventilation. Takes heat from outgoing stale air to heat the incoming fresh air. There are many such houses in existance today. If we as a country had any sense, we would have mandated ALL new construction from late seventies on to be superinsulated. Home heating is a MAJOR energy use in this country. Yes its been around since then, just not super popular as energy got "cheaper" relative to income in eighties and nineties. I am not fond of building codes and govt mandates and such but since we have them anyway, just as well use them to make our national housing as energy efficient as possible.


Good points all around....and about blg codes and mandates too. Economics though. If there isn't an affordable market for it, it won't fly. It's like solar for instance. First thing you have to do to install it is to "change" your lifestyle, appliances, expectations and then you need to be educated in it's use so you don't overload it. Then the issue of batteries and replacements come in. Most aren't willing to do all that it requires and demands. Again the market. Solar has it's place though. I was looking at a solar generator that sounds interesting specifically because I was worried about losing the fan on my pellet stove. It's portable, lightweight, silent and clean, and you can throw it in your car in an emergency. About $2000 and up. ouch.


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## HermitJohn

woodspirit said:


> Good points all around....and about blg codes and mandates too. Economics though. If there isn't an affordable market for it, it won't fly. It's like solar for instance. First thing you have to do to install it is to "change" your lifestyle, appliances, expectations and then you need to be educated in it's use so you don't overload it. Then the issue of batteries and replacements come in. Most aren't willing to do all that it requires and demands. Again the market. Solar has it's place though. I was looking at a solar generator that sounds interesting specifically because I was worried about losing the fan on my pellet stove. It's portable, lightweight, silent and clean, and you can throw it in your car in an emergency. About $2000 and up. ouch.


Alas humans have short term thinking. In eighties and nineties, super insulated would have had longer pay back, but thats making stupid assumption energy is going to be really cheap FOREVER. Housing should be thought of as lasting at least a century. ITS NOT LIKE BUYING A CAR! And if the house is designed from scratch to be super insulated, it isnt much more expensive to build than standard construction. It does require the builder to take a lot more pains about air infiltration and such. You cant just bring in your crew of Mexicans and throw it up in a week. So not as profitable for the builder. Very beneficial for the owner as energy prices skyrocket.

Solar is whole differerent set of economics. It is LOT more expensive to design and build and wont work well on just any building lot or in any climate/location. Super insulated will look very much like conventional construction and doesnt require anything special beyond the air to air heat exchanger system. It does require lot of attention to detail though. But it works ANYWHERE. Once builders knew they had to meet that standard, they would find ways to make it even more economical to build.


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## Windy in Kansas

The upstate N.Y. builder was building the homes for only a little more money than a standard home. He said that the cost of of the super insulation and air infiltration measures were paid for from what would have been furnace and installation expense. 

All of the homes he built had a standard blower door test used on them. The ones he built always shocked and amazed those doing the testing that homes could be so tight. 

Yes, H.J. is correct in that air to air heat exchangers must be used. They go by a different name now which is heat recovery ventilation system. 

I really wish that Rodale Press would start up New Shelter magazine again. 

Today at the very least one should strive toward homes that are called zero energy homes. A Wiki simple definition: A zeronet energy building (ZNE) is a popular term to describe a building's use with zero net energy consumption and zero carbon emissions annually.


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## artificer

What is the cost of the propane, and how much are the pellets? I'll crunch the numbers for you if you provide those.

Michael


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## wendle

I found the pellets were cheaper to use than propane. The American Harvest multifuel burner seems to use more corn/pellets than the pellet burner, or at least needed to run at a higher heat reliably without shutting off. After a couple years I can only run mine on level 3 or above using about a bag (4.00) per day in mild weather, bag and a half when colder. Not sure if it is just the brand I have, or typical of the multi-fuel burner. In a single level house it does the job, but in an old 2 story farm house like mine with a basement it will heat the ground level. The basement can still get cold and so can the upstairs. I still like mine and use it when I want a flame and a little extra warmth. You will have to clean ashes, but not near what a regular woodstove produces. Considering you can use a variety of sources to pellet that would otherwise go to waste it seems like a good alternative. The chimney is easier, to put in and maintain. 
If you have a power outage you better have a good generator or no heat. It does use some power. There are a few more things to go wrong than a wood stove. Auger motor, a few fans, control board, and the agitator. I use mine as a back up to the outdoor boiler which can actually run on just the pump in a power outage. It is supposed to run on more, but it can work if you manage it right.


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## where I want to

I have a pellet stove and a woodstove and propane heat. I have not used the propane heat since I got the wood stove.
Basiclly the pellet stove is great for easy of use (on a thermostat,) heat when I'm away. But pellets here are a minimum of $280 per ton. The wood stove is a lot cheaper.
The pellet stove still needs cleanng but nowhere near the level of the wood stove. 
I tend to use both of them- the pellet stove when the weather is milder as the wood stove makes so much heat on milder days that I have to open the windows.
I started with just the pellet stove but here the power gows out on a fairly regular basis and can be off for a week or more. The wood stove is a real blessing in times like that.
I guess the worse thing I can say about the pellet stove, beside the cost of pellets, is that it is somewhat noisy. It may be picky but the clink-ity clink of the pellets feeding into the firebox and the sound of the blower makes the wood stove blissfully quiet.


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## caroline

Wow---thanks everyone for this huge amount of advice! I think I am going to go with a pellet. As someone mentioned he paid his off in 2 years and I crunched the numbers and that is what it would take me also. I would still have the propane to use if I go away for an extended time.

The last pellet I had needed to have a humidifer going somewhere in the house also. The heat is very dry. 

I called a "stove store" in the area and talked with them about all of this. Their prices are high! They wanted $700 to install it.

Tractor Supply is out of stoves now. No reorders. I looked at Lowe's but would have to find someone I trusted to install. I think this is a fall project----next fall.


Thanks for all the great insights, advice, experience and knowledge you have given me!


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## woodspirit

Check Home Depot. I got mine in Feb for half price. I did the install myself putting down slate underneath. The only part I hired done was cutting thru the outside wall and finishing the chimney. I think that ran $150. I only keep it on the lowest setting as it would be way to warm. That brings me to the other thing which can't be measured with cost. The warmth you can't get with propane or forced air.


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## haypoint

First, let's do the math. You're spending $3000 a year on propane, right? Divided into all 12 months, is $250 a month. A pellet stove costs $2700 installed, ready to go. Then you said you can heat the house with $700 of pellets. The first year you have this you'll spend $283 a month, divided into all 12 months. So, a pellet stove is only a tiny bit more than your propane costs for the first year. But, now the good news, after the stove is paid off, you'll spend $700 a year (your figures) or only $58 a month, spread over 12 months. That's about $2400 a year savings.

BUT, you may still have a propane bill. Is your water heater, dryer, kitchen stove propane? Also, when you are away and the propane has to heat things, you'll rack up more propane costs.

Also, there seems to be a big difference in quality in pellets, so you run the risk of getting some bad pellets. I think it is both the species of wood used and the final moisture content. But corn burners have the same problem.

There is less work with pellets than a plain old wood stove, but you still have to "tinker" with them a bit, clean out the clinker in the ash pit, haul the bags and dispose of the ash.

For now, I'd get a programable thermostat and an electric blanket. Drop that night time temperature down further, but get it up ther in time for your morning coffee. Crank it back when you will be gone all day. Heck if you get good at setting the thermostat, you can have the house warmed back up when you get home. It is a myth that warming the house back up uses too much energy.


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## HOTW

I have a 2 story 4square with a pellt stove in the basement. Natural gas furnace that only turns on when th epellet stove goes out and the temp in the hosue drops to force it on. I use about 3-4 tons of pellet a winter (approx $800) our house was not been properly insulated during a renovation on th e80's. We do have insulation in the attic. The temps in the hosue are in th e70's in th ebasement, 60's 1st floor, 50's 2nd floor. If we were runing th efurnaceI have no clue hwo much that would run us when we installed it in Dec07 our gas bill dropped $250 but since then the price of gas has risen and the delivery costs alwasy exceed my supply costs(we have a natural gas water heater) My average gas/electric bill is about $211 over the last 12 months before the pellet stove it averaged $325(and this was before we owned an AC unit for th esummer) Actaully our summer bills are higher than the winter bills due to running AC units!

So heating with alternative fuel has helped us a LOT!


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## WisJim

Make sure you get a quality stove. Not sure how you decide that, because I hear sad stories about maintenance and parts replacement on many brands and models.

I would check around and see if you can get a professional energy audit done on your house. Make sure it includes a blower door test and checking the house with an infrared camera. Around here it costs about $300 for this service, including a second blower door test after you do the recommended work on sealing and reinsulating. I could almost guarantee that if you haven't had such a test done, you will find it pays for itself in telling you where your house is leaking heat out and cold air in.


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## tom j

some are saying >> If the elect goes out <<,, if you have natural gas ,,or propane , no elect no heat so whats the big deal you need the fan to blow on the furnace to , just like on the pellet :shrug::shrug::grit: 
I agree with ""Jim-mi "" look in to buying your tank and shop for propane ,,I bought my tank I think in 79 80 and I paid for my tank in less then 1 1/2 years .here I get 10 cent off a gal just because I own the tank , and in the fall you can pre pay in Aug at that Aug price for all your gas for the winter ..


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## Wintergrower_OH

Take a look at smart logs or what called sawdust logs . For example : http://www.atlanticforest.com/products/energy-products/ . Pellet supposely cost as much as cord of wood . You live in area where you can get these logs . For me i can't because of shipping cost . I talked to rep in maryland , he will be more than happy to steer you right .


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