# Responsibility and IVF



## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

I just had a "seeing red" moment on another forum that has some spam problems. The normal spam is something that I just note, report, and move on, but this one got under my skin.

The spam was asking for donations so that the woman could have more expensive in-vitro fertilization attempts to create a child. I can understand the biological imperative to create a child, and the pressing desire that many people have, but if a couple cannot afford the costs to meet that desire how do they realistically plan to have the money to properly raise that child?

The idea of spamming for money to create a child who will likely require governmental assistance and charity, which either reduces the amount available to others or raises taxes, bugs me as completely self-centered and irresponsible. Am I over-reacting? Is this acceptable behavior?


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

I always heard it never hurts to ask even if it sounds far fetched or dumb to others  I can always just shake my head and say no :runforhills:

Now on another note you could always offer your services in a non monetary fashion :angel:


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

Yeap! Sure is! This has become the normal. People like you and I are not the "odd balls"! 
Sad but true!

Wade


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

I think you're over-reacting. Why? Because it's doubtful that the spammers would use the money (if they're successful in getting it from gullible fools) for IVF. They are simply using the idea of a baby as a tool to pluck at the heart strings of stupid people who think having a baby is the sole purpose for living and the only way to find fulfillment. If you have to be angry for any reason, be angry at the spammers for tricking stupid people into giving up their money, and be angry at the stupid gullible people for falling for such an old trick.


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

I think that odds are the story is made up. I would never send money to someone I do not know to a degree that I know their situation is true.

As for "if you cannot afford IVF, how do you expect being able to raise a child" ... I think that someone who cannot afford an IVF can still afford raising a child. I know someone who spent $100,000 on fertility treatments (fortunately they were successful). I think it is hardly fair to say that someone should have $100K in cash sitting around before they have a child. Now I think you should know that you can provide for your family if you bring children to this world, but you can do that by working and earning an income. We certainly did not have that much money on hand before we had kids but they are well provided for (they have a safe place to live, clothes to wear, proper nutrition and much much more but the rest of the stuff is not as important as the first three).


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Doesn't IVF cost thousands per attempt? That could add up fast if there were multiple attempts, even with people who an afford to raise a child.


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

I'm thinking of Octomom.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Harry I'm with you! I wouldn't give a dime for somebody's IVF treatment, and there are much better causes for people to donate to if they have the money and the heart. It chaps my hide to see people spend those excessive amounts of money on extreme procedures to have "their own" child, when there are so many babies and children in foster care and up for adoption.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> It chaps my hide to see people spend those excessive amounts of money on extreme procedures to have "their own" child, when there are so many babies and children in foster care and up for adoption.


OTOH, I have seen people adopt older children out of foster care, and even infants, and have horrible experiences with the kids growing up to be mentally ill or addicted, just like their birth parents. 

I can't really blame anyone for wanting to have their own biological baby, vs. taking a gamble on one coming from a family that is so dysfunctional that it chose (or was court-mandated) to give a child away to strangers. Sad but true.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

MO_cows said:


> Harry I'm with you! I wouldn't give a dime for somebody's IVF treatment, and there are much better causes for people to donate to if they have the money and the heart. It chaps my hide to see people spend those excessive amounts of money on extreme procedures to have "their own" child, when there are so many babies and children in foster care and up for adoption.


No, there are not! 50 years ago that would have been true, but having tried to adopt in the past, there are usually waiting lists for any child excepting those who are over 13 *AND* who have serious problems, of the sort inexperienced parents would have trouble handling!

The last time I looked, it cost at least $30,000 to pay the fees to adopt a healthy baby. And that was 25 years ago!

We went through family services, which costs very little, but their children are rarely healthy. The kids are not healthy because they come from families that are not healthy, and some illnesses are inherited. Since I am an RN I figured that would not be a problem, but I can tell you, when I adopted 2 kids through them that the kid's health problems were a real challenge! 

Even so, there is a waiting list for the kids that are adopted out through SRS. Potential parents have to show that they can deal with the kids health issues. One Mother -to- be had several deaf relatives, and she was approved to adopt a deaf child that she had already met. etc.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> OTOH, I have seen people adopt older children out of foster care, and even infants, and have horrible experiences with the kids growing up to be mentally ill or addicted, just like their birth parents.
> 
> I can't really blame anyone for wanting to have their own biological baby, vs. taking a gamble on one coming from a family that is so dysfunctional that it chose (or was court-mandated) to give a child away to strangers. Sad but true.


I don't blame them for wanting it, either. I blame them for refusing to accept the reality that they are not fertile. 

Some of my family found out they both were sub-fertile when they tried to have a baby. They couldn't afford the IVF procedures, so they took the training to become foster parents. They were able to adopt one of their fosters, they had him since he was an infant. A happy family today. But even if they wouldn't have fallen in love with that child and adopted him, they made a difference for the better in the lives of other children. I consider that a lot more admirable than using up all those medical resources to meld their own egg and sperm.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I don't blame them for wanting it, either. I blame them for refusing to accept the reality that they are not fertile.


But maybe they ARE fertile, with a little help from technology! 

I know a couple who went the fertility-treatment route. Their first attempt resulted in a twin pregnancy and, sadly, a late-term miscarriage. They tried again, and this time had a healthy, beautiful set of twins, and girl and a boy. Cutest kids you ever saw! 

The year the twins started kindergarten, the lady conceived naturally at age 40, which, needless to say, came as a total surprise! So now they have a younger son as well. 

I'll add that I have great respect and admiration for people who take in foster and/or handicapped children, but not everyone is cut out for that sort of challenge, and I don't think they should be faulted for it.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> But maybe they ARE fertile, with a little help from technology!
> 
> I know a couple who went the fertility-treatment route. Their first attempt resulted in a twin pregnancy and, sadly, a late-term miscarriage. They tried again, and this time had a healthy, beautiful set of twins, and girl and a boy. Cutest kids you ever saw!
> 
> ...


I'm guessing they didn't solicit money from others for the procedurez? If they have that good of insurance, or can afford it, fine. The OP was about a couple trying to get other people to pay for theirs.

Yep, every one is different. When they lost the late term twins, a lot of people wouldn't have had the heart to try again. 

A lot of foster parents are angels in disguise. They provide a calm, safe, stable environment for kids whose lives have gone out of control. No, not everyone can do it, but the ones who can are amazing.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I'm guessing they didn't solicit money from others for the procedurez? If they have that good of insurance, or can afford it, fine. The OP was about a couple trying to get other people to pay for theirs.


As long as they're asking for voluntary contributions, not expecting the government to pay for it, I have no problem with it. 

There are entire sites devoted to "crowdfunding" which hook up people in need with benefactors. 

If it makes someone feel good to give to a cause like that, who am I to tell them what they should do with their money? :shrug:


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I agree with Willow_girl on this one! It may be unusual, but it is not illegal, or unethical. It is like the change jars that businesses put on counters that say "injured uninsured volunteer fire fighter", or whatever. 

People give because it pleases them to do so and because they want to, and in order to back the people around them. And, as more friendships develop between people who meet on-line, I expect to see more crowdfunding. More and more people have a large chunk of their social lives on-line

My kid brother responded to a crowdfunded ad, and he was very pleased. He told me about the young man he sent money too, and how regrettably his business had not worked out, and how the gent had sent his some packets of heirloom seeds in a cloth bag as a way of saying "thank you". DB gave me a packet of the heirloom eggplant seeds, as he does not like eggplants and I sometimes do.

I thought that crowdfunding was tacky, at first, but people are having fun with this, and can make contact with like-minded people this way. 

I one gave a textbook on farming to a young woman who was just starting out, because I wanted too, and this is no different.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MO_cows said:


> I don't blame them for wanting it, either. I blame them for refusing to accept the reality that they are not fertile.
> 
> Some of my family found out they both were sub-fertile when they tried to have a baby. They couldn't afford the IVF procedures, so they took the training to become foster parents. They were able to adopt one of their fosters, they had him since he was an infant. A happy family today. But even if they wouldn't have fallen in love with that child and adopted him, they made a difference for the better in the lives of other children. I consider that a lot more admirable than using up all those medical resources to meld their own egg and sperm.


Do you blame someone with a congenital disease for seeking treatment rather than just accepting a shorter life or disability as just a reality? Infertility is no different than anything else that can be treated by modern medicine.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

It's a fine line between what people really "want" to do with their money, and what they are manipulated into giving. The old tug at the heartstrings...which loosens up the purse strings. 

They are, in essence, begging for the money for the IVF procedure. It's the electronic version of standing on the street corner with a sign, is it not?


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

mmoetc said:


> Do you blame someone with a congenital disease for seeking treatment rather than just accepting a shorter life or disability as just a reality? Infertility is no different than anything else that can be treated by modern medicine.


Yes, infertility is different than a disease or condition. It doesn't threaten your life.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

MO_cows said:


> Yes, infertility is different than a disease or condition. It doesn't threaten your life.


Neither does astigmatism, but I wear glasses!


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MO_cows said:


> Yes, infertility is different than a disease or condition. It doesn't threaten your life.


It might. If you consider that depression and other stressors can shorten life spans this study might interest you.http://news.yahoo.com/no-kids-men-m...hc2JxBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkAw--


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Terri said:


> Neither does astigmatism, but I wear glasses!


Me too. Did you hold a fundraiser to get your glasses?


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

mmoetc said:


> It might. If you consider that depression and other stressors can shorten life spans this study might interest you.http://news.yahoo.com/no-kids-men-m...hc2JxBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkAw--


I also know people whose kids put them under so much stress, it has to be negatively affecting their health. Works both ways.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MO_cows said:


> I also know people whose kids put them under so much stress, it has to be negatively affecting their health. Works both ways.


http://m.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/do-kids-make-parents-happy-after-all/361894/. Studies like these show a net positive affect of having children. We can all cite people we know on both ends of the spectrum but that doesn't answer why infertility is different than other physical disorders.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

We circle back around to, infertility doesn't *definitively* shorten or threaten one's life like cancer, MS, kidney failure, whatever.

Any of you who think it's such a great idea, get the link from Harry and go give them some money. It's your money, your choice. Me, I'll stick to the causes that I feel are worthy. And, reserve the right to hold the opinion that it's inappropriate for them to solicit from strangers on the internet for fertility treatments.


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

If the people asking for money were asking to raise $$ to fund adoption fees vs. fertility treatments, would you feel any differently? Or would you say "if you cannot afford adoption fees, you cannot afford children"?


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

FarmerKat said:


> If the people asking for money were asking to raise $$ to fund adoption fees vs. fertility treatments, would you feel any differently? Or would you say "if you cannot afford adoption fees, you cannot afford children"?


Probably, unless there were extraordinary circumstances like someone just finished college, was married, and had every reason to think that a good job was on the horizon. I view the responsibility that strongly. However, while I wouldn't see it as appropriate I don't think I would see it as such a strong split with reality.

People do fall on hard times, and a hand up can be a great help. When people set about to MAKE hard times or situations that will create them, and then ask for others to fund them, that rubs me the wrong way.

I do think though that as some have said, this may simply have been another "hook" for a spammer trying to get money.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Harry Chickpea said:


> The idea of spamming for money to create a child who will likely require governmental assistance and charity


I'm not seeing the connection....why do you assume this kid will require gov't assistance? Because the parents are asking for voluntary donations from people willing to donate to their cause? 

I just don't get it....people badmouth those on gov't assistance, and say the community should support those in need instead. Here is someone doing that exact same thing, and you don't like that either. 

YOU may not think it's ok to ask for assistance for fertility treatments, but it's not your decision.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mmoetc said:


> Infertility is no different than anything else that can be treated by modern medicine.


Yes it is! Very few other things would lead to a society that could no longer reproduce.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

MDKatie said:


> I'm not seeing the connection....why do you assume this kid will require gov't assistance? Because the parents are asking for voluntary donations from people willing to donate to their cause?
> 
> I just don't get it....people badmouth those on gov't assistance, and say the community should support those in need instead. Here is someone doing that exact same thing, and you don't like that either.
> 
> YOU may not think it's ok to ask for assistance for fertility treatments, but it's not your decision.


My decision was to report it as spam (which it was, and against the TOS of that forum). Why do you assume I am assuming?  I _suspect_ that if it was not just a "poor me" story to scam, that the couple involved were short on cash and would continue to be so during the marriage. 

I have nothing against being short of cash. I am so myself compared to many. I temper my expectations to meet my means and hope that others do something similar. I do see where you are coming from that the couple were exploring voluntary donations and not demanding aid from some agency. I still don't see that as prudent thinking as much as being driven by a desire so much as to not think clearly. Does that clear it up?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I would bet if the IP was checked it was probably in India. Bangladesh. Sweden. Los Angeles. One of the. Those are the most often countries of spammerd


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Yes it is! Very few other things would lead to a society that could no longer reproduce.


Because a parent might have fertility issues does not neccessarily mean that their offspring will have the same issues. The problems may have been caused by disease or accident that are not genetically based. Some of the treatments might even use genetic material from another person negating even that concern.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MO_cows said:


> We circle back around to, infertility doesn't *definitively* shorten or threaten one's life like cancer, MS, kidney failure, whatever.
> 
> Any of you who think it's such a great idea, get the link from Harry and go give them some money. It's your money, your choice. Me, I'll stick to the causes that I feel are worthy. And, reserve the right to hold the opinion that it's inappropriate for them to solicit from strangers on the internet for fertility treatments.


Would it suit your sensibilities if they got a diagnosis from a licensed professional stating that having a child would alleviate their depression?

I have little doubt that this incident might be a scam not worthy of my time. But that has little to do with the morality of someone asking friends, relatives , neighbors or the general public for help. I donated and helped at a fundraiser for a local couple to raise money to allow them to travel to SE Asia to facilitate the adoption of a couple of sweet little girls. This is travel they could not have afforded on their own. I've since watched this family grow and prosper and contribute more back to our community than they ever received. Were they to have come and asked for the same help for fertility treatments I would just as gladly have helped and I don't doubt the results would have been the same


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

mmoetc said:


> Would it suit your sensibilities if they got a diagnosis from a licensed professional stating that having a child would alleviate their depression?
> 
> I have little doubt that this incident might be a scam not worthy of my time. But that has little to do with the morality of someone asking friends, relatives , neighbors or the general public for help. I donated and helped at a fundraiser for a local couple to raise money to allow them to travel to SE Asia to facilitate the adoption of a couple of sweet little girls. This is travel they could not have afforded on their own. I've since watched this family grow and prosper and contribute more back to our community than they ever received. Were they to have come and asked for the same help for fertility treatments I would just as gladly have helped and I don't doubt the results would have been the same


No, if a licensed professional diagnosed that a child would cure someone's depression I would consider them a quack. 

Thank you for your generosity with your acquaintances. Knowing the people and deciding to help them is one thing. The OP was about soliciting from strangers on the internet.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

This may have been a scam since it was posted on a forum, but I see people asking for donations ALL the time for families who have a sick child, or because a family needs help with medical bills after the passing of a loved one, etc. Are those wrong too? People can always ask for money, and it's up to us to decide whether or not we want to donate.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

MO_cows said:


> Me too. Did you hold a fundraiser to get your glasses?


No, but neither did I consider it my duty to accept my helpless fate. I see no reason NOT to change what I was born with, as I am not that helpless! 

If I could NOT have afforded glasses, I would have been ashamed to hold a crowdfunder, but I would have done so rather than not be able to see more than a few feet away, and never be able to work at most jobs because I could not see well enough. 

Mother nature can throw some ugly curve balls. I entered the health field to help fix'em. And, I expect that when you are suffering from something, you are as quick to see your doctor as I am!


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Harry Chickpea said:


> I still don't see that as prudent thinking as much as being driven by a desire so much as to not think clearly. Does that clear it up?


Actually, it does.

Harry, you can make the exact statement about EVERYBODY who wants kids. We no longer need our kids to support us in our old age. Children RARELY repay the investment we have in them! They are a LOT of work, and a sick toddler means that parents often stay up all night and then all day the next day. And, supporting a family is far harder than supporting one.

"A desire so much as to not think clearly" When I was trying to have kids I was not thinking clearly, I knew it, and I did NOT care! I was intent on having children. 

"A desire so much as to not think clearly". BTDT, and it makes me smile, remembering.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MO_cows said:


> No, if a licensed professional diagnosed that a child would cure someone's depression I would consider them a quack.
> 
> Thank you for your generosity with your acquaintances. Knowing the people and deciding to help them is one thing. The OP was about soliciting from strangers on the internet.


It's good that you are so knowledgable about all thing to override the diagnosis.

The OP was about a possible scam but many of the subsequent comments have been about the supposed inappropriateness of IFV in any form. This is what I'm addressing.


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## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

Eggs/egg salad, what's the difference?

Or was it potato salad? I can't remember. Either way he made a ton, $50,000 or so? :hammer:


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Terri said:


> No, but neither did I consider it my duty to accept my helpless fate. I see no reason NOT to change what I was born with, as I am not that helpless!
> 
> If I could NOT have afforded glasses, I would have been ashamed to hold a crowdfunder, but I would have done so rather than not be able to see more than a few feet away, and never be able to work at most jobs because I could not see well enough.
> 
> Mother nature can throw some ugly curve balls. I entered the health field to help fix'em. And, I expect that when you are suffering from something, you are as quick to see your doctor as I am!


You could have gone to the local chapter of The Lion's Club. They have a nationwide collection and distribution program for eyeglasses and hearing aides.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Terri said:


> Actually, it does.
> 
> Harry, you can make the exact statement about EVERYBODY who wants kids. We no longer need our kids to support us in our old age. Children RARELY repay the investment we have in them! They are a LOT of work, and a sick toddler means that parents often stay up all night and then all day the next day. And, supporting a family is far harder than supporting one.
> 
> ...


LOL! I understand. Wasn't trying to get into existential conundrums and core biological urges, but they do come up surprisingly often when you start dissecting things. I suppose if we were all super-rational we would think ourselves out of existence.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

MO_cows said:


> It's a fine line between what people really "want" to do with their money, and what they are manipulated into giving. The old tug at the heartstrings...which loosens up the purse strings.
> 
> They are, in essence, begging for the money for the IVF procedure. It's the electronic version of standing on the street corner with a sign, is it not?


Well, yes, but where's the harm in it, providing the beggar isn't overly aggressive or menacing? 

People in need hooking up with people who wish to give ... it's all good, AFAIC. :thumb:


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

mmoetc said:


> It's good that you are so knowledgable about all thing to override the diagnosis.
> 
> The OP was about a possible scam but many of the subsequent comments have been about the supposed inappropriateness of IFV in any form. This is what I'm addressing.


Override the diagnosis? Nope, it doesn't take a psychology degree to realize that a responsible, competent mental health professional would never counsel a patient that having their own biological child is the only cure for their depression! It would be their job to help the patient try to be healthy mentally/emotionally, no matter what the eventual outcome of their infertility. 

I haven't seen anybody comment that IVF itself is not appropriate. What I said was, IF the couple can afford it, or IF they have superduper insurance to pay for it, fine. The inappropriate part was soliciting strangers online for the money to do it, especially using a forum where they violated its terms by doing so. Because I think it's inappropriate, I wouldn't give them any money. But if somebody else wants to - that's their money, their business. 

Beyond that, yes, I do hold the opinion that moving mountains to artificially put sperm and egg together, even using a surrogate womb if necessary, is somewhat selfish. When you consider all the babies and children who need adopting, foster care, mentoring, donations, etc. I have a lot more respect for people who channel their desire for children into the "greater good" by helping other children, versus creating a million dollar test tube marvel baby just to duplicate their own genes. But that's just a personal opinion, I'm not advocating to prevent IVF.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Harry Chickpea said:


> LOL! I understand. Wasn't trying to get into existential conundrums and core biological urges, but they do come up surprisingly often when you start dissecting things. I suppose if we were all super-rational we would think ourselves out of existence.


Pretty much!

And that biological urge is what I am seeing on the crowdfunding thing. It is not rational but it is how humans often are.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Terri said:


> No, but neither did I consider it my duty to accept my helpless fate. I see no reason NOT to change what I was born with, as I am not that helpless!
> 
> If I could NOT have afforded glasses, I would have been ashamed to hold a crowdfunder, but I would have done so rather than not be able to see more than a few feet away, and never be able to work at most jobs because I could not see well enough.
> 
> Mother nature can throw some ugly curve balls. I entered the health field to help fix'em. And, I expect that when you are suffering from something, you are as quick to see your doctor as I am!


I bet if you "could not afford" glasses, you would FIND a way to afford them before you solicited strangers for the money. Sell something, cut the budget somewhere else? You have always come across to me as responsible. But even if you had to fundraise or use a charity, yes of course you NEED glasses. To be able to earn a living, and for your own protection against being injured by something you didn't see. Not the same thing as optional IVF procedures. 

Quick to see the Dr? No, that's not me! I have to be dragged kicking and screaming to the Dr every few years. I hate it. All those snotty children in the waiting room spreading their germs around, the old folks with the grey complexions, it's both scary and depressing! Then, at least a half hour after my appointment time has come and gone, finally see the Doc. Instead of, congratulations on not getting sick or hurt for the past X years, I get a lecture. So, no thanks!!


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Glasses have a fairly high priority for me. If I could not afford them, then I would not have anything worth selling. 

As for getting a job, most employers will not hire someone who cannot do their job. And, I have never been taught how to be blind. So I might not be able to do anything other that either ask the government for help or crowdfund. Personally I see no difference.

I think you are still underestimating the drive of many human females to have babies, by the way. Some women literally risk their lives to have kids. My own desire for kids was pretty strong, though not as strong as some. 

I could NEVER have been a foster parent, because some of those kids are put back into conditions that are not safe. So, the foster parents get an abused 6 year old, have them long enough to love them, and then see them go BACK into danger? I don't THINK so: it would have killed me to participate in that! Laws in many areas have changed to put the safety of the child first but it was not always that way!

Foster parents do NOT get enough respect!


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> Well, yes, but where's the harm in it, providing the beggar isn't overly aggressive or menacing?
> 
> People in need hooking up with people who wish to give ... it's all good, AFAIC. :thumb:


The actual "harm" in the case posted was violating the rules of the forum.

But yes, most places, most cases, begging isn't a crime. Just not admirable, IMHO. 

I'm just one who would rather help the people I actually know (or at least know of), or good organizations like St. Judes. Then I know I'm not being scammed, I truly believe in what I gave for, and I feel good about where my money went. Some people are more "free spirited", and they can do what they like with their money.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MO_cows said:


> Override the diagnosis? Nope, it doesn't take a psychology degree to realize that a responsible, competent mental health professional would never counsel a patient that having their own biological child is the only cure for their depression! It would be their job to help the patient try to be healthy mentally/emotionally, no matter what the eventual outcome of their infertility.
> 
> I haven't seen anybody comment that IVF itself is not appropriate. What I said was, IF the couple can afford it, or IF they have superduper insurance to pay for it, fine. The inappropriate part was soliciting strangers online for the money to do it, especially using a forum where they violated its terms by doing so. Because I think it's inappropriate, I wouldn't give them any money. But if somebody else wants to - that's their money, their business.
> 
> Beyond that, yes, I do hold the opinion that moving mountains to artificially put sperm and egg together, even using a surrogate womb if necessary, is somewhat selfish. When you consider all the babies and children who need adopting, foster care, mentoring, donations, etc. I have a lot more respect for people who channel their desire for children into the "greater good" by helping other children, versus creating a million dollar test tube marvel baby just to duplicate their own genes. But that's just a personal opinion, I'm not advocating to prevent IVF.


But might that competent mental health professional counsel someone to ignore the naysayers and critics of IVF and do what person feels is right for them in regards to bringing a child into their life? It might not be the child that results that lessens the depression but the ridding oneself of negative people and negative energy. It's advice that works for a lot of people in a lot of situations.

If you haven't seen that IVF is seen by some here as inappropriate you might wish to go back and reread post #8. I won't disagree that asking for donations on a forum where such behavior is prohibited is inapropriate.

Now I'll ask why doing whatever is possible to have a child of one's own genetic makeup is any more selfish than the couple who has no fertility issues having a child? Or two, or three or a dozen? Aren't there just as many kids out there who would benefit from them adopting rather than bringing another child into the world just to duplicate their genes? It could be argued that once you've done it once it's even more self centered to do it again rather than adopting.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

mmoetc said:


> But might that competent mental health professional counsel someone to ignore the naysayers and critics of IVF and do what person feels is right for them in regards to bringing a child into their life? It might not be the child that results that lessens the depression but the ridding oneself of negative people and negative energy. It's advice that works for a lot of people in a lot of situations.
> 
> Keep twisting!
> 
> ...


The focus of this thread was IVF not naturally conceived children.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MO_cows said:


> The focus of this thread was IVF not naturally conceived children.


Not a twist. Just showing how blanket statements might be wrong. Would not that advice from a mental health professional possibly be helpful and appropriate? 

I never said you'd advocate banning it. I did point out that you seem to think it inappropriate in most instances.

I simply asked why one instance was selfish and another wasn't. If be interested in your answer.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

It seems selfish to me in a couple ways. One, IVF takes up a lot of medical resources. People make a lot of money at it, so they are enticed to practice fertility medicine for the benefit of a few, versus other fields which would benefit more of the population. Who's to say the Dr. who has made millions getting rich people pregnant, couldn't have been the one to find a solution to Down's Syndrome had he not followed the big bucks? Two, shunning the needs of children who have already been born, or are about to be born unwanted, in favor of replicating their own genes at ANY cost. That seems elitist. 

I know people who have adopted children themselves, others where adoption was part of their lives in some way, and those stories all have happy endings. Unlike the couple who breaks up and has a prolonged legal battle over their eggs in storage, surrogate mother arrangements gone bad, using the "wrong" sperm, a sperm donor father who ended up paying child support, the octomom, and other disasters resulting from artificial reproduction gone bad that have made the news. 

Again, it's legal and should stay that way. It's just that me, myself and I, personally, don't hold a high opinion of it. It's both flattering and odd that you seem to care so much about that!


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Already existing children are being medially shunned? IVF takes precedence over unwanted kids?

Just.... no. Not hardly.


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## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

IVF is usually a last-ditch effort for folks who want a little mini-me..nothing wrong with that in my book. Adoption is great as well. I have relatives who have done it all..Really, to each their own. Do they love their kids no matter what? Yep.  

Infertility is pretty painful to go through, I know, but to dismiss IVF as elitist, I just don't see it as anything taken lightly and without a great deal of thought.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MO_cows said:


> It seems selfish to me in a couple ways. One, IVF takes up a lot of medical resources. People make a lot of money at it, so they are enticed to practice fertility medicine for the benefit of a few, versus other fields which would benefit more of the population. Who's to say the Dr. who has made millions getting rich people pregnant, couldn't have been the one to find a solution to Down's Syndrome had he not followed the big bucks? Two, shunning the needs of children who have already been born, or are about to be born unwanted, in favor of replicating their own genes at ANY cost. That seems elitist.
> 
> I know people who have adopted children themselves, others where adoption was part of their lives in some way, and those stories all have happy endings. Unlike the couple who breaks up and has a prolonged legal battle over their eggs in storage, surrogate mother arrangements gone bad, using the "wrong" sperm, a sperm donor father who ended up paying child support, the octomom, and other disasters resulting from artificial reproduction gone bad that have made the news.
> 
> Again, it's legal and should stay that way. It's just that me, myself and I, personally, don't hold a high opinion of it. It's both flattering and odd that you seem to care so much about that!


Don't flatter yourself too much. I have fun dealing with faulty logic. First, someone entering the medical field to make maximum money isn't likely to be the person who suddenly goes into research, a relatively lower paying field. Second, who's to say the daily work that that well paid doctor is doing might not lead to insights and breakthroughs you speak of. And third, who's to say the child resulting from that fertility treatment won't grow up to be the next Einstein, Salk, Curie, Bach, Glass, Mendelssohn, Picasso, Rembrandt, Cassat or Jane Jones? When compare to health care spending as a whole, the amount spent on fertility treatments is a drop in the bucket. A "regular" pregnancy can be quite expensive and require quite a few specialized medical resources. I'll ask again, why is a pregnancy like that, especially for a second, third or fourth genetic copy any less selfish than a couple seeking treatment to make just one?


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I know people who have adopted children themselves, others where adoption was part of their lives in some way, and those stories all have happy endings.


Your experience has been vastly different than mine. It's been my observation that adoption largely turns out to be heartbreaking. One of my friends is now having her heart broken all over again by the children of her adopted daughter, who are in their turn having babies outside of wedlock and going to prison. My friend and her husband are some of the finest people imaginable. They raised their daughter from infancy. She was one of the proverbial, highly-sought-after "healthy white infants." Things still went horribly awry. Their younger daughter (also adopted in infancy) is bipolar and became so violent toward them in adulthood that they had to take out a restraining order against her and had no contact with her for years. 

My stepsiblings and first husband and all of his siblings were adopted, too. I'll spare you those stories except to say they aren't pretty, either. Mental illness and addiction seem to run along genetic lines.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

mmoetc said:


> Don't flatter yourself too much. I have fun dealing with faulty logic. First, someone entering the medical field to make maximum money isn't likely to be the person who suddenly goes into research, a relatively lower paying field. Second, who's to say the daily work that that well paid doctor is doing might not lead to insights and breakthroughs you speak of. And third, who's to say the child resulting from that fertility treatment won't grow up to be the next Einstein, Salk, Curie, Bach, Glass, Mendelssohn, Picasso, Rembrandt, Cassat or Jane Jones? When compare to health care spending as a whole, the amount spent on fertility treatments is a drop in the bucket. A "regular" pregnancy can be quite expensive and require quite a few specialized medical resources. I'll ask again, why is a pregnancy like that, especially for a second, third or fourth genetic copy any less selfish than a couple seeking treatment to make just one?


In other words, you enjoy dragging people thru knotholes? Well, your fun's over with me. My personal opinion doesn't affect anyone else, it's mine and mine alone. And I'm keeping it until something in my life experience changes it. Don't agree with me, that's fine. I can respect that. So let's just agree to disagree.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> Your experience has been vastly different than mine. It's been my observation that adoption largely turns out to be heartbreaking. One of my friends is now having her heart broken all over again by the children of her adopted daughter, who are in their turn having babies outside of wedlock and going to prison. My friend and her husband are some of the finest people imaginable. They raised their daughter from infancy. She was one of the proverbial, highly-sought-after "healthy white infants." Things still went horribly awry. Their younger daughter (also adopted in infancy) is bipolar and became so violent toward them in adulthood that they had to take out a restraining order against her and had no contact with her for years.
> 
> My stepsiblings and first husband and all of his siblings were adopted, too. I'll spare you those stories except to say they aren't pretty, either. Mental illness and addiction seem to run along genetic lines.


I'm sorry. I have heard plenty of those horror stories, but everyone I know of personally was spared that. Simple as luck of the draw? We'll probably never know. 

Ironically, the kids "raised right but gone bad" that I know, were all "natural" children.

Agree that mental illness and tendency toward alcohol/drug dependence seem to be heritable. Not 100%, but the pattern is definitely there.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I'm sorry. I have heard plenty of those horror stories, but everyone I know of personally was spared that. Simple as luck of the draw? We'll probably never know.


Yup. My friends who had all the trouble with their girls also adopted a son who turned out just fine. One never knows. And, of course, one's biological children can turn out badly as well! But I can't blame anyone for not wanting to roll the genetic dice with someone else's child. 

The mere fact that a child is being placed for adoption with strangers -- and not within its birth family -- may be a clue as to the level of dysfunction present.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MO_cows said:


> In other words, you enjoy dragging people thru knotholes? Well, your fun's over with me. My personal opinion doesn't affect anyone else, it's mine and mine alone. And I'm keeping it until something in my life experience changes it. Don't agree with me, that's fine. I can respect that. So let's just agree to disagree.


And I enjoy being dragged through knotholes by others. It's, in part, how I validate my opinions and see if my logic holds up. Sometimes it's even been part of that life experience that's led me to change an opinion. As grandpa used to say- I've never learned anything new listening to myself talk.


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## defenestrate (Aug 23, 2005)

Re: asking donations for IVP (assuming a legitimate request and not spam), the urge to reproduce is as powerful as any in nature. No logic or appeal can override the biological imperative with any reliability. I believe the cost for IVP begins in the low 5 figures for a single attempt. For the majority of people in this country (USA I'm speaking for) living either paycheck-to-paycheck, or with no more than a few months' expenses in liquid savings, that's a tremendous amount of money, and I can see how someone could have trouble with the medical end despite having a decent job and bills paid on time.


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