# Visited the bee hives



## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

Okay, I spent a while at the bee hives today and here's what I saw and did, and a couple of questions.

I have two hives, both newly established this year from boxed bees. One is strong and one is weak. Both have a large brooder box on the bottom and a smaller super on top, with 10 frames in each box.

The weak hive had the wax drawn out on 2 or 3 frames in the big brooder box. Pretty good amount of capped brood. A little pollen and a little honey. Nothing going on in the super at all. I gave them some more sugar water syrup. 

The strong hive was almost full up in the super, but with brood.  The queen was up there. The bottom part had some honey and lots of pollen in it. I flipped the boxes so the "super" with the brood is on the bottom now. 

I stole two small frames of brood from the strong hive and put them in the super of the weak hive. I hope I knocked enough bees off before putting the frames into the weak hive. I put empty frames from the weak hive into the strong hive so the strong queen would have more space to lay some eggs.

My questions:
1. Am I doing more harm than good by continuing to feed the weak hive? i.e. am I creating "welfare bees"?
2. Should I kill the queen in the weak hive and let them make a new one? This one just isn't doing much. 

I think I would prefer to wait until the strong hive builds a queen cell, then move the frame with the queen cell to the weak hive and kill the weak queen. I'm just not sure how to kick the weak hive into action.

3. I plan to get another large or medium (Illinois?) box with frames for the strong hive. I plan to place it above the small "brooder box" that is now on the bottom and below the large "super" that is on top. Is this a good plan?


----------



## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

Okay, 29 views and no answers. Have I done something so supremely stupid I'm not worth responding to? It is not out of the realm of possibility. I don't mind being corrected. I'm not proud. I'd rather learn.
I understand everyone does things differently. I don't mind making up my own mind about things. I'd like to do it based on some experienced suggestions and ideas if y'all have any.

Thanks!


----------



## fastbackpony (Aug 30, 2006)

turtlehead

We just got bees this year, so i am not able to say right or wrong. we started with two hives and have noticed one is also ahead of the other, in terms of production, etc. Your boxed bees should have come with young queens, so can you tell, on the week hive, if you have a reasonable amount of brood ? ? Our queens are both laying, but on the weak side, i'm wondering if there weren't quite a few older bees, that have since died, which has slowed the amount of combs they have been able to draw and the amount of pollen they have been able to gather.

We are currently feeding the weaker side the same as you are, and I hadn't even considered this making them weaker. I was thinking this type of feeding is helping the brood and current workers have enough of a food source to hatch and feed lots and lots of new babies, in turn making the hive a much stonger unit.

Its kind of strange, our strong hive has the honey super on already, and we are still feeding the weaker hive, but hopefully the feeder will come off in a week or two and we will be able to put the honey super on at that time. Our goal is strong hives, not a large amount of honey production - maybe because its our first year, we just wanted them to get their numbers up. 

Our hive bodies are both deep, and the honey supers are the shallow kind.

Let us know how their doing 

Fastbackpony


----------



## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

Fastbackpony,

Thanks for responding. The weak hive does have brood, but not nearly as much activity as the strong hive. Not even half as much comb pulled out. Maybe 1/4 to 1/3 as much. The difference is shocking.

Now that I think about it some more, re-queening probably wouldn't help. The problem isn't empty cells with no eggs, it's an overall lack of activity - comb, brood, nectar, pollen. That's the *worker* bees, not the queen.

What you say about older bees makes sense. 

I peeked in to the weak hive today and the two frames of brood I put in there from the strong hive (not full size deep frames but "super" size frames, 'cause that's where the strong queen decided to lay her eggs) are well attended so hopefully they'll all be out and working in the next couple of weeks. That should make a difference.

I think that feeding the weak hive can only help, because it means the small number of bees can attend to brood and not as many bees are needed to scout and forage for nectar and water.

Our goal is the same as yours - strong hives. We're not thinking about honey at all this year.


----------



## BasicLiving (Oct 2, 2006)

We're new at beekeeping too. We had a friend that sold us his entire "operation" and we ended up with six hives. We are in a definate learning curve. 

I can offer no advise, but I wanted to tell you that even with six hives we are in the same boat as you and fastbackpony - we just hope to keep six hives alive and hopefully see them stronger by the end of the year. It's looking like we may end up with some honey, and that would be a bonus, but mostly we just want to see everyone strong.

I'm very interested to read the responses you get. Great post.

Penny


----------



## dcross (Aug 12, 2005)

If the weak hive is taking syrup, they need it, keep giving it to them. If there's little to no nectar in your area now, watch out for robbing. In fact, if you aren't looking for honey this year, feed both hives if they'll take it.


Be careful switching brood, you don't want to transfer the queen! I'm not a big fan of "equalizing", jmo.

How many frames of brood does the strong one have? Are they raising it in both boxes, or just the super? BTW, the size of the frames doesn't matter to the bees, deeps can be supers and shallows can be brood boxes. And a brooder is for chickens. 

You'll need a minimum of three deeps per hive, or roughly the same volume of smaller boxes. That's so you can have two deeps(or equivalent) for brood and one for honey.


----------



## dcross (Aug 12, 2005)

BTW, how are you feeding them?


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Questions & answers
(1.". Am I doing more harm than good by continuing to feed the weak hive? i.e. am I creating "welfare bees"?"

{A Keep feeding the bees a 1:1 ratio of syrup. They will tell you when they do not need it any longer by just letting it sit.

(2. "Should I kill the queen in the weak hive and let them make a new one? This one just isn't doing much". 

{A. The answer to that question is right before you. You are worried the queen isn't doing much but if you kill her and allow the colony to make a new queen you will be set back at least 25 days waiting for the new queen to hatch, mate and start laying eggs. If you want to replace the queen just buy a new one and install her. Hardmans sells nice Itialian queens and will ship over night UPS express at a resonable cost. 

Now to touch on that queen not doing much? Is there room for her to lay eggs or are all frames full of honey and Pollen? If there are empty frames going unused then yes You may have a poor queen.


(3. "I plan to get another large or medium (Illinois?) box with frames for the strong hive. I plan to place it above the small "brooder box" that is now on the bottom and below the large "super" that is on top. Is this a good plan?"

{A. I don't under stand this question at all. You have a small honey super then a deep with bees in it and you are going to place a medium on top of all that?
What a mess that has to bee, good lord how can you switch out any thing or rearrange anything?

Here in Michigan the normal set up for this time of year with established colonies is 2 deeps, and a honey super either medium or shallow.
Was 92F the day this was taken.









Normally with package bees they are installed into a single box either a deep or a medum. When they have at least 7 frames drawn out the second box is added. When 7 of the second box is drawn out then the 3 box can be added if you are going with 3 mediums. A honey super can be added after the last box has at least 7 frames drawn out.

A early spring picture.









June picture.
From left to right.
(1. Swarm with a feeder box on still.
(2. Deep ready for the second deep but still with a quart feed jar on the inter cover.
(3. Swarm with a feeder on a double deep yet.
(4.Early swarm with a honey super on. 
(5. Expermint useing 3 mediums as brood hives. Hated it and got rid of it the next spring by splitting and useing a queen excluder to keep the queen from going back in the medium to lay. They also have a honey super on.










All our colonies are in full sun til late in the evening (7:00 pm) in all our yards.

Hope this answers your questions. If you have more I set a link a while back as to where I can be found.

 Al


----------



## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

dcross said:


> If the weak hive is taking syrup, they need it, keep giving it to them.


Will do, thanks. 

I was very careful not to transfer the queen. I found her, and kept an eye on her while I transferred two frames that she was NOT on. Thanks for the tip, though, it's a critical one.



> How many frames of brood does the strong one have? Are they raising it in both boxes, or just the super?


Seven shallow frames. They are raising it almost exclusively in the shallow box (was the super and is now the brood box since I changed their order).



> And a brooder is for chickens.


  yeah, what you said. I'm so *totally* new to all this.

Thanks so much for the reply. Lots of good info in there.


----------



## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

dcross said:


> BTW, how are you feeding them?


1:1 sugar/water syrup in a mason jar with three little holes poked in the lid.

The mason jar is inverted and inside the top hive box (not one of those outside feeders - boardman feeder?)


----------



## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

Al, great information from you, as always. Thank you!



alleyyooper said:


> Now to touch on that queen not doing much? Is there room for her to lay eggs or are all frames full of honey and Pollen? If there are empty frames going unused then yes You may have a poor queen.


Since my original post I've been thinking about that. The problem isnt' the queen, it's that the workers are slow drawing out the comb. They are low on everything: low on drawn comb, low on honey, pollen, brood, activity. I think the two extra frames of brood will help a lot. Going to leave the queen alone.



> (3. "I plan to get another large or medium (Illinois?) box with frames for the strong hive. I plan to place it above the small "brooder box" that is now on the bottom and below the large "super" that is on top. Is this a good plan?"
> 
> {A. I don't under stand this question at all. You have a small honey super then a deep with bees in it and you are going to place a medium on top of all that?
> What a mess that has to bee, good lord how can you switch out any thing or rearrange anything?


I didn't explain it well.
I started with a deep brood box and a medium super. The brood box had 10 frames in it and I put 7 in the super because I also had mason jars in the super with syrup in them.

I *know* you're supposed to have the feeder on an inner cover, and put the feeder in an empty box but I didn't really know what I was buying and I have no inner cover so thought this was a good compromise. In retrospect I should have left the super empty (no frames) until the colony got well established in the deep brood box.

Anyway, the queen moved up into the medium super so the hive is putting honey and pollen in the deep brood box and raising their brood in the medium super.

I put the medium super (full of brood) on the bottom, and the deep brood box (full of honey and pollen) on the top. That way the brood is beneath the food.

The colony is filling up their space fast, so I want to get another medium box and I thought I would place it above the medium brood box and beneath the deep super. Or I might put the medium box on top of everything.

I kind of want to stick with medium boxes instead of deeps because that is a LOT of weight for me to lift. I'm strong but I'm also small and female. To move a full deep box I have to transfer some frames to another box first and move the deep box half empty, then place the frames back. 

Thanks again for your comments.


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Nothing wrong with moving a frame at a time. Much better to do things with brain power than brawn.As for the 3 mediums I tried them and found I hated them. If I were looking for the queen she was always on frame # 30 in the very bottom box.

 Al


----------



## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

alleyyooper said:


> If I were looking for the queen she was always on frame # 30 in the very bottom box.


Hmm, I'd not considered that!
They *can* be coy, can't they?

And as long as I'm pulling frames to look at them anyway...

More food for thought, thanks!


----------

