# Flaring Copper Tube For Propane??



## big rockpile

Ok wanting to run Gas Line for a Propane Heater. I know the best would be to Double Flare it but I don't have Tool for this. Seems I have used just regular Flare before. Should this work?

I might add I quit using Tape and went to Sealing Paste. Yes I will check it when its hooked up.

big rockpile


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## melli

big rockpile said:


> Ok wanting to run Gas Line for a Propane Heater. I know the best would be to Double Flare it but I don't have Tool for this. Seems I have used just regular Flare before. Should this work?
> 
> I might add I quit using Tape and went to Sealing Paste. Yes I will check it when its hooked up.
> 
> big rockpile


Might have better luck asking in the general question thread. 
Not a gas fitter, but I thought a single flare was fine for propane. Copper is malleable...squishes well to fit. From what I read, brass fittings required. 
However, best to get advice from a gas fitter...lol


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## Bearfootfarm

Most now just use compression fittings, but you should really consider asking a professional for help with something as dangerous as running gas lines when you don't already know exactly what to do.


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## TnAndy

Use a good, professional grade tool....the cheap ones they sell don't do near as good a job.


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## big rockpile

Won't no one around here do it even Gas Company. All they will do is set the Tank and check for leaks which I can do.

Ok my wife just told me I hooked up the last Heater and used our Flaring Tool. Gas company checked it for leaks and left.

big rockpile


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## farmrbrown

big rockpile said:


> Won't no one around here do it even Gas Company. All they will do is set the Tank and check for leaks which I can do.
> 
> Ok my wife just told me I hooked up the last Heater and used our Flaring Tool. Gas company checked it for leaks and left.
> 
> big rockpile


Yep, use a flare tool and fitting for gas. If done right, you don't need teflon tape or pipe dope, that actually makes a leak more likely to happen.
The only time I've used it (tape or pipe dope) is on threaded iron pipe.


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## meiere

You do not use tape or dope on flair fittings. Or compression fittings. If you need it on either of those you did it wrong. Sealers are only needed for pipe fittings


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## Steve_S

meiere said:


> Sealers are only needed for pipe fittings


 is ABSOLUTELY TRUE ! Never ever put tape, dope on a flared fitting !

Tape/dope are meant ONLY for threaded iron pipe and "not slathered on either".

Copper pipe must meet brass fittings else corrosion will occur resulting in leaks. Brass fitting to connect Iron Pipe to Copper line is the only correct method. Single Flare if done properly will not leak. Make sure that when you cut your copper, there are no burrs, scratches or marks on the end before flaring. Make sure the flaring tool is "clean" and that the cut end of the copper is perfectly square (angles, even slightest will affect the flare). Do not use any oil's or anything on the copper and if the flaring tool your using was / is used for other things like brake lines or what have you, really important to clean it so no cross contamination occurs... (yes that is a bit much BUT brake fluid, oil etc can really cause troubles later).

I myself am NOT a gas installer, my dad was and I helped him much growing up and so those critical lessons stuck... even my children call me Safety Dad as I concern myself with being safe both short & long term.


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## Nevada

big rockpile said:


> Ok wanting to run Gas Line for a Propane Heater. I know the best would be to Double Flare it but I don't have Tool for this. Seems I have used just regular Flare before. Should this work?
> 
> I might add I quit using Tape and went to Sealing Paste. Yes I will check it when its hooked up.
> 
> big rockpile


If you use copper tubing with a flare fitting, standard flare will be perfectly acceptable. Propane pressure is only slight (around 10" water, or 0.36 psi). Double flare is used for high pressure applications, such as hydraulic lines and automotive brake lines. 

I've heard that some jurisdictions allow copper pipe & tubing for gas lines, but it's not allowed where I live. The stated reason is that the stench oil (methyl mercaptan, or methanethiol) which is added to odorize natural gas & propane can attack copper. I don't know for sure, but since it's outlawed around here it's moot for me.

Other materials commonly used for gas service are galvanized steel, black iron, and corrugated stainless.

Corrugated stainless for gas use is a specialized contractor item. The advantage is that it's flexible and can be purchased in long lengths, so the installer isn't fooling with multiple couplings. While installation goes a lot faster than with common pipe fittings, it's expensive and local suppliers only sell it to licensed gas installers. But you can buy it online without a license. Personally, I don't fool with it.

Galvanized steel pipe is also commonly used for gas service, but outlawed where I live. The problem with galvanized pipe is that the zinc coating can flake off and foul automatic gas valves. Galvanized might be legal where you live, but I would avoid using it.

That leaves black iron (really, it's black steel). That's what I use. Black iron threads should be either wrapped with yellow Teflon tape and/or coated with pipe dressing made for gas service. Black iron, yellow Teflon tape, and pipe dope for gas service are all readily available at your local home center. Don't worry about the pipe not aligning perfectly, since you can make the final connection with a short flexible gas connection, also available at your home center. Here's an example of a flex hose for gas service.

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Brasscra...LFawj4255by4IqFJ6Q0VJBQGZyRfL0Lz_UaAr1T8P8HAQ

Important:

Whenever you connect a gas supply line to an appliance with an automatic gas valve you'll want to fashion a "drip leg" near the appliance. A drip leg is a pipe nipple closed at the bottom with a pipe cap, which will allow any debris in the gas to be collected in the drip leg. Even a tiny amount of debris can jam an automatic valve, which will require replacement of the gas valve.

A drip leg drops straight down from a pipe tee, and also changes gas flow direction by 90 degrees. This is an image of a properly configured drip leg on a water heater, using black iron fittings and a flex hose.










It would also be acceptable to install the drip leg before the flex line, rather than piped directly to the appliance as shown above. Placing the drip leg before the flex hose will make appliance replacement easier, since the drip leg won't have to be transferred to the new appliance.

Here is an example of an incorrectly configured drip leg, since it does not change gas flow direction by 90 degrees. Note also that galvanized pipe was used in that installation, which I would recommend against.












Steve_S said:


> is ABSOLUTELY TRUE ! Never ever put tape, dope on a flared fitting !


Yes, Teflon tape is strictly for pipe thread. Flare and compression fittings make their seals with the flared tubing or with a ferrule. The nut on a flare or compression connection is only intended to provide thrust. You will not get a better seal by using Teflon tape on a flare or compression connection, and it's a sure indication that the project was done by a rank amateur.


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## big rockpile

Here it is common to just run Copper from the Tank to whatever with Shut Off Valve by what you are hooking up to.

Thought I would just hook the Heater up hook small bottle up that has a bad Diaphragm which is reason I'm changing over. I had Heater hooked up and started smelling gas.

big rockpile


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## meiere

You can't run straight from a bottle or tank to an appliance. You need a regulator to step the pressure down. Maybe you had better call a HVAC place


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## Nevada

big rockpile said:


> Here it is common to just run Copper from the Tank to whatever with Shut Off Valve by what you are hooking up to.


If the building inspectors let you get away with it then I have no objection to using copper tubing for propane.


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## meiere

Here they have backed away from the corrugated stainless in our area, too susceptible to lightning strikes burning pin holes in it


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## Murby

Nevada said:


> If you use copper tubing with a flare fitting, standard flare will be perfectly acceptable. Propane pressure is only slight (around 10" water, or 0.36 psi). Double flare is used for high pressure applications, such as hydraulic lines and automotive brake lines.
> 
> I've heard that some jurisdictions allow copper pipe & tubing for gas lines, but it's not allowed where I live. The stated reason is that the stench oil (methyl mercaptan, or methanethiol) which is added to odorize natural gas & propane can attack copper. I don't know for sure, but since it's outlawed around here it's moot for me.
> 
> Other materials commonly used for gas service are galvanized steel, black iron, and corrugated stainless.
> 
> Corrugated stainless for gas use is a specialized contractor item. The advantage is that it's flexible and can be purchased in long lengths, so the installer isn't fooling with multiple couplings. While installation goes a lot faster than with common pipe fittings, it's expensive and local suppliers only sell it to licensed gas installers. But you can buy it online without a license. Personally, I don't fool with it.
> 
> Galvanized steel pipe is also commonly used for gas service, but outlawed where I live. The problem with galvanized pipe is that the zinc coating can flake off and foul automatic gas valves. Galvanized might be legal where you live, but I would avoid using it.
> 
> That leaves black iron (really, it's black steel). That's what I use. Black iron threads should be either wrapped with yellow Teflon tape and/or coated with pipe dressing made for gas service. Black iron, yellow Teflon tape, and pipe dope for gas service are all readily available at your local home center. Don't worry about the pipe not aligning perfectly, since you can make the final connection with a short flexible gas connection, also available at your home center. Here's an example of a flex hose for gas service.
> 
> http://www.supplyhouse.com/Brasscra...LFawj4255by4IqFJ6Q0VJBQGZyRfL0Lz_UaAr1T8P8HAQ
> 
> Important:
> 
> Whenever you connect a gas supply line to an appliance with an automatic gas valve you'll want to fashion a "drip leg" near the appliance. A drip leg is a pipe nipple closed at the bottom with a pipe cap, which will allow any debris in the gas to be collected in the drip leg. Even a tiny amount of debris can jam an automatic valve, which will require replacement of the gas valve.
> 
> A drip leg drops straight down from a pipe tee, and also changes gas flow direction by 90 degrees. This is an image of a properly configured drip leg on a water heater, using black iron fittings and a flex hose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would also be acceptable to install the drip leg before the flex line, rather than piped directly to the appliance as shown above. Placing the drip leg before the flex hose will make appliance replacement easier, since the drip leg won't have to be transferred to the new appliance.
> 
> Here is an example of an incorrectly configured drip leg, since it does not change gas flow direction by 90 degrees. Note also that galvanized pipe was used in that installation, which I would recommend against.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Teflon tape is strictly for pipe thread. Flare and compression fittings make their seals with the flared tubing or with a ferrule. The nut on a flare or compression connection is only intended to provide thrust. You will not get a better seal by using Teflon tape on a flare or compression connection, and it's a sure indication that the project was done by a rank amateur.


That answer was pretty much perfect.. Couldn't have said it better myself..


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## Nimrod

Laws vary. Ask the inspector how he wants it done. Then he can't write you a ticket later.

Here, I have run black pipe or flared copper for gas. I recommend running it to the place where it comes out of the wall, fastening it securely to something solid, put in a ball valve, and connect to the appliance with a flexible corrugated steel line. You can connect to the appliance with flared copper but every time you move the appliance you flex the copper and it will eventually break. When I had rental property I had to use double wall corrugated steel to hook up an appliance. 

It's a good idea to come back in a day and re-tighten flare fittings. You can check them with soapy water.

HINT, PUT THE FLARE NUT ON THE COPPER PIPE BEFORE YOU FLARE THE END.


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## big rockpile

Nevada said:


> If the building inspectors let you get away with it then I have no objection to using copper tubing for propane.


 There is no Building Inspectors. And yes I'm going to get a Regulator.

Got a Mennonite Friend that deals with Propane he probably will have what I need or tell me where I can get it.

big rockpile


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## farmrbrown

Nevada said:


> If you use copper tubing with a flare fitting, standard flare will be perfectly acceptable. Propane pressure is only slight (around 10" water, or 0.36 psi). Double flare is used for high pressure applications, such as hydraulic lines and automotive brake lines.
> 
> I've heard that some jurisdictions allow copper pipe & tubing for gas lines, but it's not allowed where I live. The stated reason is that the stench oil (methyl mercaptan, or methanethiol) which is added to odorize natural gas & propane can attack copper. I don't know for sure, but since it's outlawed around here it's moot for me.
> 
> Other materials commonly used for gas service are galvanized steel, black iron, and corrugated stainless.
> 
> Corrugated stainless for gas use is a specialized contractor item. The advantage is that it's flexible and can be purchased in long lengths, so the installer isn't fooling with multiple couplings. While installation goes a lot faster than with common pipe fittings, it's expensive and local suppliers only sell it to licensed gas installers. But you can buy it online without a license. Personally, I don't fool with it.
> 
> Galvanized steel pipe is also commonly used for gas service, but outlawed where I live. The problem with galvanized pipe is that the zinc coating can flake off and foul automatic gas valves. Galvanized might be legal where you live, but I would avoid using it.
> 
> That leaves black iron (really, it's black steel). That's what I use. Black iron threads should be either wrapped with yellow Teflon tape and/or coated with pipe dressing made for gas service. Black iron, yellow Teflon tape, and pipe dope for gas service are all readily available at your local home center. Don't worry about the pipe not aligning perfectly, since you can make the final connection with a short flexible gas connection, also available at your home center. Here's an example of a flex hose for gas service.
> 
> http://www.supplyhouse.com/Brasscra...LFawj4255by4IqFJ6Q0VJBQGZyRfL0Lz_UaAr1T8P8HAQ
> 
> Important:
> 
> Whenever you connect a gas supply line to an appliance with an automatic gas valve you'll want to fashion a "drip leg" near the appliance. A drip leg is a pipe nipple closed at the bottom with a pipe cap, which will allow any debris in the gas to be collected in the drip leg. Even a tiny amount of debris can jam an automatic valve, which will require replacement of the gas valve.
> 
> A drip leg drops straight down from a pipe tee, and also changes gas flow direction by 90 degrees. This is an image of a properly configured drip leg on a water heater, using black iron fittings and a flex hose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would also be acceptable to install the drip leg before the flex line, rather than piped directly to the appliance as shown above. Placing the drip leg before the flex hose will make appliance replacement easier, since the drip leg won't have to be transferred to the new appliance.
> 
> Here is an example of an incorrectly configured drip leg, since it does not change gas flow direction by 90 degrees. Note also that galvanized pipe was used in that installation, which I would recommend against.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Teflon tape is strictly for pipe thread. Flare and compression fittings make their seals with the flared tubing or with a ferrule. The nut on a flare or compression connection is only intended to provide thrust. You will not get a better seal by using Teflon tape on a flare or compression connection, and it's a sure indication that the project was done by a rank amateur.



Good post.

The difference in the metal required for the line (copper vs. steel or iron) is due to the concentration of the hydrogen sulfide additive, the rotten egg smell.

https://www.copper.org/applications/fuelgas/select/rg-specifying.html

Also, there is a difference in this additive in propane vs. natural gas, that's why copper _can_ be used for propane, but usually _never_ for natural gas.
Some jurisdictions only allow a plastic coated copper line in those cases.


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## Bearfootfarm

> The difference in the metal required for the line (copper vs. steel or iron) is due to the concentration of the hydrogen sulfide *additive*, the rotten egg smell.


Nevada already named the additive that gives the telltale odor: 
(methyl mercaptan, or methanethiol) 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanethiol

Hydrogen Sulfide is a *naturally *occurring gas that turns into Sulfuric Acid on contact with water. 

It's not used as an "additive" and in fact they try to remove as much as possible from Natural Gas and other fuels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_sulfide



> Safety
> Hydrogen sulfide is a highly toxic and flammable gas (flammable range: 4.3&#8211;46%). Being heavier than air, it tends to accumulate at the bottom of poorly ventilated spaces.
> 
> Although very pungent at first, *it quickly deadens the sense of smell, so victims may be unaware of its presence until it is too late*.
> 
> For safe handling procedures, a hydrogen sulfide material safety data sheet (MSDS) should be consulted.[24]


Adding Hydrogen Sulfide would actually make leaks more dangerous.


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## farmrbrown

Bearfootfarm said:


> Nevada already named the additive that gives the telltale odor:
> (methyl mercaptan, or methanethiol)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanethiol
> 
> Hydrogen Sulfide is a *naturally *occurring gas that turns into Sulfuric Acid on contact with water.
> 
> It's not used as an "additive" and in fact they try to remove as much as possible from Natural Gas and other fuels.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_sulfide
> 
> 
> 
> Adding Hydrogen Sulfide would actually make leaks more dangerous.


Ok, thanks for explaining what I referred to as the* hydrogen sulfide additive.*
The *entire* chemical name includes an alcohol group bonded to the hydrogen and sulfur.

It is in fact the reactiveness to copper under the higher concentrations that they restrict the use of copper lines in those instances.


*In industry, methanethiol is prepared by the reaction of hydrogen sulfide with methanol. This method is employed for the industrial synthesis of methanethiol:

CH3OH + H2S &#8594; CH3SH + H2O
*


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## big rockpile

Well found out I can get my Regulator fixed.

Wanting to move my Heater so I need to get longer Copper.

Plus need to get a Blower for the Heater.

Just leave it one Bottle hook up.

big rockpile


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