# Teacher Bashing



## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

At what point will people start pointing the finger at the STUDENTS? I have been teaching for 13 years and I am really tired of the whole "public schools are bad so we homeschool" routine.
Fine, I get it that that you are exercising your right to homeschool, but please don't continually criticize teachers...many of whom bust their butts to try and educate kids who for the most part could care less about an education. In the last 13 years, I have had 3 parent volunteers. I get little to no support from home and have to teach kids who stay up past midnight, are surrounded by drugs and drug dealers, have no food in the home, and wear the same dirty clothes for several days in a row.
I understand that this may not be the case where you, the reader, live, but it is increasingly common in this country and instead of people recognizing what teachers have to deal with, they blame the lack of educated children on teachers. Enough!!!
Before you bash teachers, I suggest you spend a day in their shoes and see how hard it is!!!!!


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

For the most part I have nothing but the utmost respect for teachers. I don't care much for all the rules they impose on you and I don't like the fact that when there are bad teachers, if that teacher is a union member, they still stay on and still get paid. I homeschool for several reasons. One is because of my belief that when the Bible tells us we should train up our children in the way that they should go, that means every aspect of training them. Another reason I homeschool is because of my son's special needs. His developmental specialist and his pediatrician have both told me the best thing for him is to homeschool him so he can have that one on one he needs. I don't care much for some of the things that are in the public school's curriculumn, since they go against what I believe the Bible teaches. I do teach things like evolution to my son, but also teach creationism so he will have a chance when he's older to make an informed decision.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

I think homeschooling is a wonderful option. When my children were younger, we homeschooled them (my ex husband worked with them while I taught at the public school).
I didn't send my children to public school because of the influence from other children, not because the teachers were not doing a good job with instruction.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

I come from a family of teachers - lack of parental involvement has been a problem for at least the last 30 years. Far too many parents have abdicated their God given role to teach and motivate their children and instead expect the schools to do it all.

I don't envy a teacher with 20 or more out of control, disrespectful children in a class room. Which is one of the reasons we home school as there is no way our children would get the instruction they need. Heck the school superintendent for this district home schools his kids!


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

I agree 100% with everything you have said, except your first sentence, pointing a finger at the students.

As you know , students are children, with brains not even fully developed. They going to do what they are going to do, based some on influences from home life, church, parents, drugs, whatever, as you have stated.

Bad Teachers, just leech the system and good Teachers are stuck between a rock and a hard place, with parents, school Politics, etc.

Bad parents are plentiful and good ones carry the Lions share of parental involvement in school.

IMO, BOTH Teachers and Students are the victims, of this big mess.

Thank you for you efforts. It takes great courage to be a good Teacher.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

There's a lot that could be said about this thread... and I am sure it will be.

A couple of words of advice though... disconnect a bit from criticism or the public schools to taking it personally as criticism of teachers. Even then, when the criticism is of actual teachers... ask yourself... are they talking about me?

There are a LOT of reasons to criticize the public school. I've done both, homeschool and public schools. The kids are in public school right now because the school they go to is a good rural school with some good teachers. One of the 5th grade teachers lives 3 houses down the hill from me. She's a great teacher and a great mom.

That said, I'll be writing a letter to one of the music teachers (and copying the principal) because this young, childless teacher, is teaching the 5th and 6th grade chorus the song "Raise Your Glass" by Pink. She's substituted some milder words but it's the same song in essence. Poor judgment? Yes. Intentional? I don't know, we'll find out. I always want to talk to the teacher and get their side before I believe anything that my kids say (or any other kid) because I've worked with youth and know how they can exaggerate... but it wouldn't surprise me if they are learning it. 

There are a LOT of teachers out there that don't have a lick of sense. Many of them don't have kids of their own.

The BIGGEST issue I have with "teachers" as a whole is that THEY'VE bought into the "we're martyrs for YOUR children and you better appreciate us" bit. Like anything... you choose what you want to do. You chose to be a teacher. Be the best one you can be... but remember, sometimes, even people who chose to be the best they can be... well, some of those people SHOULDN'T be teachers.

If it's too overwhelming, or too exhausting, or too demanding, it might not be for you. (not YOU shanzone2001 but "you" in general for teachers) Don't be surprised that a lot of parents get fired up over things like asking their children to sing racy lyrics... it may just be a "mistake" for you, but it's our children that are affected by it so your mistake can be a costly one.

Everyone feels under-valued. I left work Thursday feeling the same way... feeling sorry for myself because no one knew all the things that I went the extra mile to do... but later, when reality caught up with me, I realized it didn't matter. I had a job, I took pay for it, and if I don't like the job, or the pay (and I don't always) I could go elsewhere... and you know what? They would get someone else to do it.

I'm not irreplaceable to anyone except my family.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

My mother is a retired school teacher, and my sister has been teaching for over a decade. I'm an adolescent counselor and I end up doing guest lectures at the middle/high school level from time to time.

Most teachers have to teach for several years before they earn tenure. Once they are tenured, they may not be able to fire them but they can make their lives so miserable that they will quit. For example, my Mother was a reading teacher (master's degree in reading instruction), and she was certified K-12. She had taught 1st grade for a decade before she got her master's degree and she was able to continue working in the elementary school. But if they wanted her to quit, all they would have had to do would be to move her to the high school and she'd have turned in her notice immediately. Tenure or not, union or not, if they want to get rid of you they can find a way.

IMO the biggest problem is the parents. If I hear one more parent say to me "well I know some teenagers lie, but my son always tells ME the truth!"  Or "I don't understand why they suspended him. The teacher who says he started that fight was just getting back at him because he hates my son!" Then they always want exceptions to rules made just for their kid, if their kid does something wrong they go in and yell at the teacher and the principal for having the audacity to discipline their kid, etc. 

Kids are no longer being taught to accept responsibility for their own actions. They have learned that their parents will swoop in and clean up their messes for them, so they have no accountability. 

Teachers are stuck teaching the federal standards (no child left behind, bleh) to always-increasing classes (up to 60 kids per class in some states), trying to get kids who refuse to accept responsibility for their own actions to learn so that they can pass a year-end test that reflects back on the teacher.

And at the end of the day, parents and the general public points their finger at the teacher and demands to know why their students aren't rocket scientists....then won't listen to the explanation :shrug:

I'd like to see anyone who thinks its an easy job try it. Sign up to be a substitute teacher with your local school district and spend some time as the only adult in a 1st grade class of 32 kids, or in a high school biology class of 60, and tell me what you think.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

I enjoy what I do for a living or else I wouldn't be doing it. The kids I work with need someone like me to tell them that they are special and can be successful. My role is more than simply teaching the core curriculum. Yes, it is exhausting, but I do make a difference so I stick with it.
My major frustration is that I can't get all of my students to buy into the importance of an education. It isn't for a lack of trying, that is for sure!
My job is very rewarding and I do feel like a majority of my students appreciate what I do to give them a good educational foundation. That being said, I will always be fighting the negative influences they have at home and running the streets.
My students will never receive the one-on-one attention that a homeschooled child has. They will have to deal with behavior issues disrupting a lesson and regular lock downs. It is sad, but more common than people realize.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

I have the utmost respect for good teachers and am still friends with one of my favorite teachers ever and think of other teachers almost daily. Good teachers are wonderful and they don't print enough money to pay good teachers.

But bad teachers are horrible! They do damage that lasts as long as the wonderful influence of good teachers. We are still repairing damage done to DS by a bad, bully teacher. After we pulled him, she replaced him with another whipping boy and we heard from other parents that she has one every year that she sticks in a corner and berates and encourages other students to berate. And no, the school won't do anything about her.

Good teachers are the most wonderful and powerful things in the world.. and bad teachers are just as powerful.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

When I went to school I only had one bad teacher and that was for one half of a year. I enjoyed being taught and learned a lot. All of my teachers are now dead but I looked up to each and every one. I went to school before Dr Spock came into view and am glad. If I got into trouble at school and my parents found about it it was Kattie bar the door. I was never beat but the guilt trip they put on me was nothing to look forward to.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Shan, I have nothing but the utmost respect for teachers. Unfortunately teachers are often stuck in the crab bucket. I know that I couldn't do it. I would be under arrest within a month. I will never forget my first day of first grade. My Dad followed me onto the school bus and told the driver "if this kid gives you any grief just smack him". I knew that it would be of no use to complain to the folks if I was not happy with my educational experience.

I seem to remember a story in the "Little House on the Prairie" series in which a teacher pulls out a bullwhip to subdue the rowdier elements of his class. I would not be opposed to this approach........


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Sonshine & Hans get POTDAs.


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

We chose to homeschool our kids not because of bad teachers or even a bad school system, but because of the conditions under which public schools must operate, and due to our own religious beliefs. 

The school system our kids were attending was one of the best in the state, and in fact our school board chairwoman was appointed chairwoman of the state school system by the Governor. Although we had some bad teachers, like all school systems, for the most part they were great teachers who really cared about their students. When we did encounter a "bad" teacher, I was always able to address the issue with either the school principle or the School Superintendent. 

Public schools however, operate under conditions that limit what and how they can teach. For instance, there has been much debate about teaching creationism and other aspects of religion in public schools, and some would be surprised to know that I am opposed to public schools teaching anything other than a basic comparitive religion course. My reason is that, since public schools cannot legally hire teachers according to their religious beliefs, I wouldn't want to have my child learn religion at a public school. 

Public schools must also teach according to a Bell curve. With a room full of students, the best they can do is teach the average and try to give some extra attention as they can to those on either end of that curve. By homeschooling, we are able to cater to exactly the needs of our children. 

Another point would be that public schools are necessarily satisfied with the children learning 70% of the presented material. In our homeschooling, we have the flexibility to stay on a subject until the child has mastered the material. We also have the flexibility to move along faster when they are ready.

There are, of course, those who have chosen to homeschool because had to deal with bad teachers and unresponsive school administrators, and they are certainly right to do so. Naturally, such cases draw a lot of attention when the situation is discussed on a public forum such as this, but please don't take it as everyone having a beef with all teachers. My own mother was a teacher, and many other family members are as well.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

shanzone2001 said:


> At what point will people start pointing the finger at the STUDENTS? I have been teaching for 13 years and I am really tired of the whole "public schools are bad so we homeschool" routine.
> Fine, I get it that that you are exercising your right to homeschool, but please don't continually criticize teachers...many of whom bust their butts to try and educate kids who for the most part could care less about an education.


Shan......don't take it personal. If you are a good teacher, the complaints are not directed towards you.

My son's 2nd grade teacher, was amazing. I could write pages about this woman, and they would all be good.
My youngest child's 1rst grade teacher, was also an amazing educator. Again, I could go on for pages about her.

BUT the rest of them? I could go on for pages about some of the teachers, just paragraphs about others.
But none of them were you! 
People are sharing their personal experiences. It's nothing 'personal'.




> In the last 13 years, I have had 3 parent volunteers. I get little to no support from home and have to teach kids who stay up past midnight, are surrounded by drugs and drug dealers, have no food in the home, and wear the same dirty clothes for several days in a row.


My kids went to a suburban school Moms lined up around the block to volunteer. "Super Volunteer Mom". You knew who their kids were......they got all the special treatment.
They never experienced any of the things you mentioned here. Yet they had some pretty militant / carppy teachers. Their students (99%) were nothing like you described. So, they are in 'ideal' settings. Wonder why I had such bad experiences with them. They had it coushie compared to what you are dealing with, yet my experiences were still horrible. Wonder why?



> I understand that this may not be the case where you, the reader, live, but it is increasingly common in this country and instead of people recognizing what teachers have to deal with, they blame the lack of educated children on teachers. Enough!!!
> Before you bash teachers, I suggest you spend a day in their shoes and see how hard it is!!!!!


I will not 'bash teachers' with a broad sweep of a brush.
I only bash the ones that I had personal, and bad, experiences with.

Uneducated kids are the systems fault.
For years, they have been indoctrinated to believe what is put before them. They are tested and graded and judged by what they regurgetate onto the paper.
The system has taught them, there is no right or wrong, there is no God, and to 'trust your feelings'. The system constantly reminds them that it is not "their fault" they act the way that they do. It's not "their fault" their parents are the way they are. NO ONE holds anyone accountable.
So teachers blame parents.
Parents blame teachers.
Kids blame them both.
Because they are watching, and learning.........

We can moan and cry for pages about who's fault it is, or we can do something about it. Everyone can do SOMETHING about it.
I did. 
I pulled all 3 of my kids out of the system, and educated them at home.
That was *my* solution. 
But I did something......

I do not paint (bash) with a broad brush.
Don't take it personal......you cannot defend "teachers" on the whole. And why would you want to??? I mean, are you really defending the teachers in WI that have TRASHED the statehouse and it's lawn? They WALKED OUT on their jobs, and their precious kids.......
They have been rude, offensive, and have been caught on film shoving, and 'running into' folks trying to work in the statehouse?
Do you want to defend them, and their actions???


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

I agree with the others. Our education system is failing and the cost of operating it keeps going up. The frustration is not aimed at the average teacher. The system has become a bloated monstrosity. Why does a high school with fewer students than it had in the 60's now need a principal, vice principal, assistant vice principal, and 5 women working in the front office when it used to have a principal ( who also taught a couple classes ) and 2 women working in the front office? Before the advent of the Dept of Education this country turned out some of the brightest people in the world. Since the Dept of Education was formed in ( I think ) in 1979, can anyone show a shred of evidence that education has gotten better? Quite the opposite. The teacher unions also deserve the criticism they get.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I've had good teachers and bad ones. The worst part was that none would look at what was going on in my home. I realise there was probably nothing they could do about it. It has got to be brutal to be a teacher now. Parents give a kid a party because they graduated Kindergarten? What happened to kids being expected to behave and learn,rather than praised for it.Program being advertised yesterday on tv- 8 yr old going to have a "r0ckstar party" people paying 10 thou, for a birthday. This is what's wrong, kids think they are so Special. Big whoop. not impressed with today's brats. Are they going to into some kind of shock when they find out the world isn't at their fingertips. Poor Teachers are expected to be babysitters and work miracles. But I think we also need to fire bad Teachers-Union or not.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

poppy said:


> I agree with the others. Our education system is failing and the cost of operating it keeps going up. The frustration is not aimed at the average teacher. The system has become a bloated monstrosity. Why does a high school with fewer students than it had in the 60's now need a principal, vice principal, assistant vice principal, and 5 women working in the front office when it used to have a principal ( who also taught a couple classes ) and 2 women working in the front office? Before the advent of the Dept of Education this country turned out some of the brightest people in the world. Since the Dept of Education was formed in ( I think ) in 1979, can anyone show a shred of evidence that education has gotten better? Quite the opposite. The teacher unions also deserve the criticism they get.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

I think the worst part of being a teacher today is the expectation that you have to indoctrinate them with all the good qualities home and church should be doing. And teach on top of it all? Shazzone I don't envy you, it's only going to get worse. It's the times, not the students, or unions.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Some of us teach for the joy of teaching. There are few things that equal the sensation a teacher receives when the kid's light turns on as we rejoice that, "he/she understands it!" I don't have to be in a classroom to teach nor does the student have to be a child. 

Once I was whining to my teacher mentor that I'd like to take four of the 21 students and put them in an isolated location so that the others could learn and enjoy the learning process. You can imagine the scolding metted on me for even thinking such a thing? Even with all efforts to try, there are students who simply do not want to nor will try to grasp a new idea. 

I take the labels of a teacher as bad or as good with a grain of salt. I've never known a teacher who is either 'good' or 'bad' with all students in a classroom or with their parents.


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

We like our school. It's not the district in which we live, but it is closer to our house. We need to transport, but in my estimation, that is far better then the kids spending 1 hr 15 minutes each way to go to the school that is 15 minutes tops.

My 10 y/o had a difficulty with a girl in his class. I talked to the teacher, who ackwoledged that she was a "mean girl" and would move her. She thought he would be able to ignore her.....

Of course, since we transport, we see and talk to the kids's teachers every day.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

LaManchaPaul said:


> Some of us teach for the joy of teaching. There are few things that equal the sensation a teacher receives when the kid's light turns on as we rejoice that, "he/she understands it!" I don't have to be in a classroom to teach nor does the student have to be a child.
> 
> Once I was whining to my teacher mentor that I'd like to take four of the 21 students and put them in an isolated location so that the others could learn and enjoy the learning process. You can imagine the scolding metted on me for even thinking such a thing? Even with all efforts to try, there are students who simply do not want to nor will try to grasp a new idea.
> 
> I take the labels of a teacher as bad or as good with a grain of salt. I've never known a teacher who is either 'good' or 'bad' with all students in a classroom or with their parents.


Teaching isn't brain surgery. You either have the desire and ability to teach or you don't and no amount of money or education will change either of those. How else can one explain the many old maid teachers of years gone by who started teaching as soon as they got out of school themselves and never had a day of college education? Most kids back then never went to high school and yet those uneducated teachers managed to teach them math that most kids will not be taught even in high school today. My dad, his brother, and 7 sisters only went to the 8th grade and were very well educated. Students were a problem in those days too. Some played hooky to go fishing or hunting and the boys were often absent for weeks at a time in farming season but yet they still managed to learn. It is a failure of the system by government meddling and control.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Whenever this subject comes up "we" see where the problem is. R-E-S-P-E-C-T....not just from some students but some parents and some teachers. Don't point fingers. There are good teachers, good parents and good students. But....there are bad also. Always have been. If you bad mouth the teachers at home the children pick it up. If you home school great but don't disrespect the education system after all some people have no other choice and this country will be what we make of our children....James


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## joyfulheart (Mar 26, 2009)

I think you need to also understand that YOU might be a wonderful teacher, but there ARE BAAAAD teachers out there.

I had a 2nd grade teacher that used to beat the tar out of me every day--without reason, in front of witnesses/other teachers, and to this day is STILL teaching.

My son had a teacher who used to scream profanities (f words) at the entire 1st grade class-- in front of the principal-- and is still teaching.

I witnessed a teacher tell a student they must be retarted for not being able to learn, and they are still teaching. (and belive me, I made a stink about it!)

Out of my 3 boys, they had ONE-- JUST ONE-- "good" teacher. If I could have kidnapped her and kept her here at my house to teach my kids, I would have, I just loved her. the rest were horrible.

I guarantee you that I DO a BETTER job as a homeschooling mom than any of those teachers did. My kids are healthy, have their self-esteem back and are actually AHEAD of what the public school system is.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I remember back when I attended public school, that the principal had a paddle and if you misbehaved he was allowed to use it. If you misbehaved at school, your parent would punish you when you got home too.

Now kids get suspended and their parents leave them at home - often alone- all day long with their playstation and wii and tv and nobody imposing rules on them. Honestly, what teenager who is disenchanted with school would consider this a punishment?

One of the boys I counsel got suspended for fighting and his mother took advantage of his being out of school on one of her days off by taking him to the local amusement park - she was thrilled that he was "off" during the week so they didn't have to stand in long lines. THIS is supposed to deter him from misbehaving in the future?

Parents come to me with out-of-control kids and expect me to "talk" to them and fix in 60 minutes what it took them 16 years to screw up. Parents tell me "I don't want him to hate me, I want him to like me" (he's your kid, not your friend). I hear "Last time I spanked him was in 2nd grade and he went to school and reported me for abuse. CPS looked into my life with a microscope. Ever since then I haven't been able to control him - every time I threaten to even ground him he says he'll go report me again for abuse!"

Kids know the system and they have the upper hand. I blame this on the "time out" parenting that has taken over the nation (Thank you, Dr. Spock ). Used to be that a misbehaving kid would get a spanking, and he would think twice before doing that again. If he acted up in school he would get treated to an actual disciplinary measure at home, so students more or less knew better than to act up in school - the punishment outweighed the benefit of the misbehavior.

Try teaching to a classroom full of kids who have their parents eating out of their hands and think they can manipulate the teacher as well - "I'll have your job! I'll tell your principal and my parents that you hit me!" Good luck keeping those kids in line. Even if your class has 30 kids and 20 of them are good and 10 act up, those 10 can ruin the entire experience of everyone in the classroom.


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## fordson major (Jul 12, 2003)

shanzone2001 said:


> At what point will people start pointing the finger at the STUDENTS? I have been teaching for 13 years and I am really tired of the whole "public schools are bad so we homeschool" routine.
> Fine, I get it that that you are exercising your right to homeschool, but please don't continually criticize teachers...many of whom bust their butts to try and educate kids who for the most part could care less about an education. In the last 13 years, I have had 3 parent volunteers. I get little to no support from home and have to teach kids who stay up past midnight, are surrounded by drugs and drug dealers, have no food in the home, and wear the same dirty clothes for several days in a row.
> I understand that this may not be the case where you, the reader, live, but it is increasingly common in this country and instead of people recognizing what teachers have to deal with, they blame the lack of educated children on teachers. Enough!!!
> Before you bash teachers, I suggest you spend a day in their shoes and see how hard it is!!!!!




that is good advice, walk a mile in the shoes of those you would criticize!! 
i think that a lot was lost when schools lost the right to discipline a student.
my grandmother taught on remote Indian reservations for close too 30 years, in all that time she had no problems with student nor parent and they visited her often after she retired back to her home town.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Public education is a failed, liberal experiment. Even good teachers are part of this failed system. Even if all the teachers were good teachers, the system would still fail.

Until the teacher's union is destroyed, social engineering is removed from the classroom, and the Dept of Education is defunded, the system will continue to fail. Teachers are neither the solution nor the problem.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

When someone gets a bad meal in a restaurant who gets the blame? The person closest to the diner, the waitress. The same thing goes for when something bad/stupid happens in a school. 

For the most part I don't blame teachers as a group, most of the time. The group I blame are the administrators. They are the ones who set stupid rules the teachers have to follow. The teacher isn't the one who made the decision not to put kids with the same learning ability together in a class thereby requiring ALL the students to learn at the speed of the slowest learner. The teacher isn't the one who made the rule which equates the little plastic rifle on a toy soldier to a real firearm. The teacher isn't the one which makes in nearly impossible to have a disruptive student removed from the class.

But. . . I haven't seen the teacher's standing up en masse saying they think the rules are stupid and harmful to the kids therefore they must burden some of the responsibility.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

MoonRiver said:


> Public education is a failed, liberal experiment. Even good teachers are part of this failed system. Even if all the teachers were good teachers, the system would still fail.
> 
> Until the teacher's union is destroyed, social engineering is removed from the classroom, and the Dept of Education is defunded, the system will continue to fail. Teachers are neither the solution nor the problem.


Excellent!!! If you ran for office, you'd have my vote.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

I blame high taxes in New England on teachers unions.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

I must be a rare "parent"
I NEVER disrespect the teachers or principal. I always back them. In fact when my grandson got into trouble, I ran to the office to sign a corporal punishment permission slip. Everyone involved knows I am going to b ack the school..UNLESS I have some very strong evidence they shouldn't be backed. 
If my grands get in trouble at school..They get into worse trouble at home. And the school also knows..if mine don't learn what they are supposed to...I will oppose with every breath I have of passing them up, to be done with them.
Just as I don't hold every Doctor responsible for problems in our health care system, it is not the teachers I blame for all problems in the educational system. 
I do know teachers work hard, but also know they know what wages are going in to it and I get tired of hearing how overworked they are. I worked for the school system and know a little about being employed there.
I have yet to see present problems as severe as I saw when I was a child. My third grade teacher wold routinely pull my hair, and in fact tipped a desk over on me on purpose resulting in a broken arm. She taught until retirement..MANY years later.


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## LoneStrChic23 (Jul 30, 2010)

I am very fortunate that my kids go to an amazing school.

My son is in the first grade and is one of 8 students in his class. My daughter is in Kindergaden. They learned the Pledge of Allegiance at school, my has brought home childrens biblical stories and coloring pages from school.....this is not a private christian school, just a small town public school. 

When we wanted to enroll my son in pre-k we called the school in our district. My son was very withdrawn, shy, didn't do well in social situations amoung other things, our pediatrician was toying with an Aspergers diagnosis.... He is a brilliant child, at 3 he could name 97 species of sharks, their tooth shape, diet and prefered depth of the ocean....but counting past 10 was a struggle that caused him to freeze up and literally be unresponsive to anything. He is obsessive and once things catch his interest its impossible to distract him from it until he knows all he can about it. Never hyperactive, no behavior issues ever, other than freezeing up in tense situations.....Our school district said to have him on riddlin before enrollment!!! So I looked elsewhere, no way am I medicating my child. 

I called our current school, not in our district, explained what was going on and they agreed to set up a meeting with the pre-k teacher.....We talked, she observed him and agreed to try her best. We met 3x's a week, and she talked to her sister who teaches special needs children in the metroplex for ideas, she did her lessons and then gave my son a lesson in a different manner. Helped me come up with lessons to do at home to build on the progress made in class. We discovered that once a lesson was figured out, my son NEVER forgets....within 5 weeks he could do his ABC'S, spell his name (and some shark species he liked) count to 100 with no troubles and was a different child...very confident, social and I give 90% of the credit to his teacher who jump through hoops for him. 

I don't think homeschool is a viable option for all..... A new girl is in my sons class who was homeschooled. She is so far behind she's been moved back to pre k just to learn the barest minimal basics, has no social skills....

We are one of the few people out there who are fortunate to have a good school for our kids.......Teachers up to 6th grade know my kids, their parents, our cars, where we live ect. ect. We've never had a problem in 3 years and keep an open communication with the teachers...
I hear stories about what goes on at my nieces school......if a school system like that was my only option, I would definately home school....but since I have a wonderful school I choose to send them to school....even though its a 19 mile one way trip


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

MoonRiver said:


> *Public education is a failed, liberal experiment. Even good teachers are part of this failed system. Even if all the teachers were good teachers, the system would still fail.*Until the teacher's union is destroyed, social engineering is removed from the classroom, and the Dept of Education is defunded, the system will continue to fail. Teachers are neither the solution nor the problem.


Well said. I agree with you 100%.


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## calliesue (Sep 5, 2009)

Now kids get suspended and their parents leave them at home - often alone- all day long with their playstation and wii and tv and nobody imposing rules on them. Honestly, what teenager who is disenchanted with school would consider this a punishment?

I never understood suspension for that very reason. It is only a punishment for the working parent. In school suspension makes much more sense.


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## MamaTiger (Jun 11, 2008)

I taught high school for a number of years. My mother taught high school til retirement.

That said, I chose to homeschool my own dc. I chose to do so because of the legal requirements of what is taught to students now, because of our religious beliefs, because I knew that one on one attention would increase their learning when in the classroom due to sheer numbers, one on one attention would not happen.

I don't bash teachers just because. there are good ones out there and there are bad ones who are just biding their time til retirement.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Children and teachers are no different intrinsically than they were 30 years ago. But like a wad of spit out gum, they have a lot of debris stuck to them as they have rolled along over the years.
I can't remember ever having a half day off for in-service training or anything else. Thanksgiving Day holiday was just that- one day. Christmas was most of the week off but no spring break, Labor Day week off, early closing days, etc. No classroom assistants, one principal per school and one janitor/handiman/landscaper/bus driver.
I'm amazed at the flood of teachers exiting schools five minutes after the kids leave at 2:30 to 3:30 pm. 
I suppose this varies from place to place but it's hard to have respect for the constant demands for more resources, bonds and property tax bills when less children are less educated by more people.
There is a problem that brought "teacher bashing" into existance. It's not all due to teachers but they certainly have their share of the blame.


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## twomeal (Dec 3, 2010)

it's the system that sucks, not necessarily the teachers...


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

shanzone2001 said:


> At what point will people start pointing the finger at the STUDENTS? I have been teaching for 13 years and I am really tired of the whole "public schools are bad so we homeschool" routine.
> Fine, I get it that that you are exercising your right to homeschool, but please don't continually criticize teachers...many of whom bust their butts to try and educate kids who for the most part could care less about an education. In the last 13 years, I have had 3 parent volunteers. I get little to no support from home and have to teach kids who stay up past midnight, are surrounded by drugs and drug dealers, have no food in the home, and wear the same dirty clothes for several days in a row.
> I understand that this may not be the case where you, the reader, live, but it is increasingly common in this country and instead of people recognizing what teachers have to deal with, they blame the lack of educated children on teachers. Enough!!!
> Before you bash teachers, I suggest you spend a day in their shoes and see how hard it is!!!!!


I think you are missing the point.. When someone bashes teachers, for the most part it isn't the rank and file teachers they are bashing. It is the Unions

For example in today's Lancaster paper, Front Page news that there is an article that shows the ratings for Reading and Math.. Only one district has a rating for Reading that is acceptable and only about 3 of them for math..

Yet we continue to pay higher taxes and throw more money at the problem and have done so for well over 20 years..
The Unions won't let us get rid of bad teachers and even in a down economy they want and expect more money in wages and benefits..

So that makes them scum and criminals by extortion.. They only pay about 6% of their health care and retirement, yet their wages continue to go up when jobs and income for the local folks go down..

Why?

Is it because they are greedy?
Is it "For the children"?
So tell us why the Unions can do this?

If the teachers really cared they would do their jobs, but that isn't the case, because the Unions won't allow them..

So teachers are guilty by association! 

If teachers don't like it, then work for a private/another school where there is no Union..

It seems that Private schools in our area are getting the job done better for less then half the costs... This includes buildings etc..

So why is that?


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Honestly, I wasn't even thinking about the union fiasco when I started this thread. I think the union does a huge disservice to children because they make it virtually impossible to fire teachers that are not performing.
I am not a fan of merit pay, but it does have its benefits. Personally, my goal is for each of my students to go up at least one level (there are 5 levels) on the state test, or if they are performing at the advanced level to keep them there.
Not all students will reach proficient or advanced, but if they come to me performing far below basic or below basic, it is my job to get them to basic and hopefully proficient.
That is how teachers should be evaluated...by student growth in their classroom, not by the number of students performing at grade level.

In other words, I take what students are assigned to me and work to move them higher up on the proficiency scale. If I do that, then I have done my job. If I don't, then I should be fired. Any other profession would fire me for not performing!


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

......


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

beowoulf90 said:


> I think you are missing the point.. When someone bashes teachers, for the most part it isn't the rank and file teachers they are bashing. It is the Unions
> 
> For example in today's Lancaster paper, Front Page news that there is an article that shows the ratings for Reading and Math.. Only one district has a rating for Reading that is acceptable and only about 3 of them for math..
> 
> ...


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kxc6kzH-uI[/ame]


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

shanzone2001 said:


> Honestly, I wasn't even thinking about the union fiasco when I started this thread. I think the union does a huge disservice to children because they make it virtually impossible to fire teachers that are not performing.
> I am not a fan of merit pay, but it does have its benefits. Personally, my goal is for each of my students to go up at least one level (there are 5 levels) on the state test, or if they are performing at the advanced level to keep them there.
> Not all students will reach proficient or advanced, but if they come to me performing far below basic or below basic, it is my job to get them to basic and hopefully proficient.
> That is how teachers should be evaluated...by student growth in their classroom, not by the number of students performing at grade level.
> ...


Again when most say "teachers" they are referring to the Union..
My Commander and friend was a teacher (retired). When he passed away 2 years ago the Civil War re-enacting community lost a source of information.
We would travel to different schools and give demos and teach students about the Civil War, from different perspectives.. So most of us dont' hate teachers, we hate the Unions that continue to steal our tax dollars in the teachers name...

So are working conditions that bad in a school that you need a Union like the coal miners did?


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

beowoulf90 said:


> So are working conditions that bad in a school that you need a Union like the coal miners did?


I am not a fan of the Union. They charge me $130/month and all they do is attempt to persuade me to vote for their liberal agenda.
Again, it is an extreme disservice to students to keep underperforming teachers in the classroom, but the Union makes sure everything is "fair".
Since when is life "fair"? If you are good at what you do, you keep your job. If you are not, you are fired. Why should teachers have protection from that?
By the way, I am one of 2 teachers I know who are not pro union.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

I had a few good teachers when I was in school, mainly just competent ones, and a few that had no business whatsoever teaching. I figure it's likely just about like any other field...


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Not all states have teacher unions.... My sister is a teacher who works in VA, and they are a right to work state - no unions. My good friend is a teacher in NC - no unions there either. Here in Utah, there are no teacher unions - again, its a right to work state.

There may be a teacher's association, but really they have no power. In VA, my sister can opt to become a member of the local or state teacher's association, and they use the dues to fund lobbyists, but its not the same thing at all. The associations have nothing to do with hiring/firing, hours/pay/etc. 

How many states actually allow Unions? I've never lived / worked in a state that did......


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

bluemoonluck said:


> Not all states have teacher unions.... My sister is a teacher who works in VA, and they are a right to work state - no unions. My good friend is a teacher in NC - no unions there either. Here in Utah, there are no teacher unions - again, its a right to work state.
> 
> There may be a teacher's association, but really they have no power. In VA, my sister can opt to become a member of the local or state teacher's association, and they use the dues to fund lobbyists, but its not the same thing at all. The associations have nothing to do with hiring/firing, hours/pay/etc.
> 
> How many states actually allow Unions? I've never lived / worked in a state that did......


Do right to work states have better schools / teachers??


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Do right to work states have better schools / teachers??


Nope. I know in Utah (where we live now - right to work state) our state scores near the bottom of the heap. Want to say we're # 48 or #49 in the country for test scores, or something like that.

It would be interesting, thou, to get the ranked list of states' student performance and notate which ones are union and which are right-to-work, to see if there is a pattern there......

ETA: OKay I looked it up. There are lots of different rankings for the states, depending on what data they are using. Here's one fromn US News & World report: http://education.usnews.rankingsand...s-best-high-schools-state-by-state-statistics 

Utah is higher than I thought (3-way tie for #27), and I know that Mass (#2) is a Union state, and so is PA (#25) but not sure what other states are union. Virginia is # 23, NC is #19 - these are both right-to-work states with no unions. 

Here's another one: http://www.alec.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Report_Card_on_American_Education Numbers are a bit different, again not sure what data they are using. The 5 states I've mentioned on this list rank: RIGHT TO WORK: UT #42, VA #12, NC #41, UNIONN: PA #6, Mass still #2.

Anyone else want to chime in on their state?


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

I am looking forward to the US testing system that will be a more accurate state rating system. Right now each state has their own standards and tests...some are more rigorous than others.


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## Curtis B (Aug 15, 2008)

As someone who does not teach, but is married to someone that is I have seen enough and talked to enough teachers and parents to know that the parents are mostly to "blame". It was the parents that got rid of punishments in school by complaining and suing when something happened. I know of a teacher (3rd grade) that redily admitted to giving her students the answers to the standardized tests when she talked to the other teachers. At the same school, there was a new teacher(4th grade), who taught the next grade up who was fairly new, but very dedicated. The parents loved the 3rd grade teacher, the only reason that I could see was she kissed up to the parents and let the kids run wild. The 4th grade teacher was disaplined, so the kids couldn't run wild, and was "frank" with the parents when the children misbehaved. The principal tried to help the "newer" teacher, but the complaints and threats from the parents were too much for him, and the good teacher who actually cared and tried lost her job. That is just one instance of MANY that I can think of. People have gotten to the point that nobody will accept blame when it is there fault, but they will go to no lengths to blame or sue the teachers, school, or USD. They are currently teaching their kids the same. For Bluemoonluck and Shannonzone, how many time have you heard the students say they are going to call CPS on you or their parents? I know I have, and I don't have near the contact you do.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

bluemoonluck said:


> Nope. I know in Utah (where we live now - right to work state) our state scores near the bottom of the heap. Want to say we're # 48 or #49 in the country for test scores, or something like that.


According to Iowahawk, differences in rankings are largely due to the percentage of minority students, not union vs non-union.



> a son of Iowa, I'm no stranger to bragging about my home state's ranking on various standardized test. Like Wisconsin we Iowans usually rank near the top of the heap on average ACT/SAT scores. We are usually joined there by Minnesota, Nebraska, and the various Dakotas; Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire...
> 
> ... beginning to see a pattern? Perhaps because a state's *"average ACT/SAT" is, for all intents and purposes, a proxy for the percent of white people who live there*. In fact, the lion's share of state-to-state variance in test scores is accounted for by differences in ethnic composition. *Minority students - regardless of state residence - tend to score lower than white students on standardized test, and the higher the proportion of minority students in a state the lower its overall test scores tend to be*.
> 
> Please note: this has nothing to do with innate ability or aptitude. Quite to the contrary, I believe the test gap between minority students and white students can be attributed to differences in socioeconomic status. And poverty. And yes, racism. And yes, family structure. Whatever combination of reasons, the gap exists, and it's mathematical sophistry to compare the combined average test scores in a state like Wisconsin (4% black, 4% Hispanic) with a state like Texas (12% black, 30% Hispanic). more


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

MoonRiver said:


> According to Iowahawk, differences in rankings are largely due to the percentage of minority students, not union vs non-union.


Heaven forbid you state the obvious!:clap: it is what it is. The facts don't lie.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

bluemoonluck said:


> Not all states have teacher unions.... My sister is a teacher who works in VA, and they are a right to work state - no unions. My good friend is a teacher in NC - no unions there either. Here in Utah, there are no teacher unions - again, its a right to work state.
> 
> There may be a teacher's association, but really they have no power. In VA, my sister can opt to become a member of the local or state teacher's association, and they use the dues to fund lobbyists, but its not the same thing at all. The associations have nothing to do with hiring/firing, hours/pay/etc.
> 
> How many states actually allow Unions? I've never lived / worked in a state that did......


Well here in PA if you teach you have to pay Union dues.. We are not a Right to work State.. Unfortunately! Imagine having to pay off the Union/Government thugs just for the right to work... There is something wrong there on so many levels...


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

beowoulf90 said:


> Well here in PA if you teach you have to pay Union dues.. We are not a Right to work State.. Unfortunately! Imagine having to pay off the Union/Government thugs just for the right to work... There is something wrong there on so many levels...


I agree, as I am not pro-union at all. I've also heard that to get a teaching job in a union state is hard and requires you to know someone. When I was in VA a lot of our teachers came from PA - they would graduate but not have an "in" with the union and come to VA to teach. The county I lived in actually went up to PA and held job fairs to recruit teachers!

But keep in mind that a lot of states are NOT union states, so blaming the education foils of the entire country on unions protecting ineffective teachers just isn't a sound argument for that reason.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Georgia is a right to work state, I don't know if the teachers have unions but I do know that it is almost impossible to fire one if they have tenure.

Georgia ranks 27th, with a C rating. What is astonishing is that 72% of students are not proficient on 4th grade reading level..and it costs over 10,000 to educate a student.

Sheesh, that is the same $ amount as the private school my son attended where they had 100 percent college placement. Seems that public school is not returning a value for the dollars received.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

shanzone2001 said:


> I enjoy what I do for a living or else I wouldn't be doing it. ....
> My major frustration is that I can't get all of my students to buy into the importance of an education. It isn't for a lack of trying, that is for sure!
> .


You try? So what you don't succeed and that's what counts!
Personally I think that teachers like you are a huge part of the problem. You don't teach and you don't quit. You complain about what school could be but isn't. Then you still don't quit.
If all the teachers that Don't(or cant) teach would quit then one of two things would happen. Better teachers would be hired or the system would grind to a halt and be replaced by something better.
I'm sorry you don't like to be bothered to do your job FULLY (or cant) but lots of others think you should still do your job TEACH.
Or quit and get out of the way.
I know being a good teacher is hard REALLY REALLY hard. I'd never argue that but you chose the job now do it or get out of the way and let someone else do it.
Face it you and teachers like you are your own worst problem.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

whoa....that is way uncalled for in my opinion. And rude and most likely from what I read pretty inaccurate


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

That was really mean........


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

sidepasser said:


> Georgia is a right to work state, I don't know if the teachers have unions but I do know that it is almost impossible to fire one if they have tenure.
> 
> Georgia ranks 27th, with a C rating. What is astonishing is that 72% of students are not proficient on 4th grade reading level..and it costs over 10,000 to educate a student.
> 
> Sheesh, that is the same $ amount as the private school my son attended where they had 100 percent college placement. Seems that public school is not returning a value for the dollars received.


Yup-same here, well I mean tenure. And poor results. Don't remember where TX is, but maybe worse than GA.


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## Scott SW Ohio (Sep 20, 2003)

Fantasymaker - you might try expressing how you feel about teachers without making a personal attack on one of your fellow HT members.

Or if some post gets on your last nerve and you just gotta get it out, here's what I do. I type a heated response, complete with personal insults, and then I DON'T POST IT. In fact, I just did this a minute ago and I feel much better!


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## house06 (Jan 4, 2007)

I think that maybe one thing that is being overlooked is that in private school, parents are paying for tuition and have a vested interest in students doing well. There is discipline and usually an honor code in place. Students can and do get kicked out of school with no return. Public school attendance is mandatory, per the law, and other than the taxes that everyone pays to operate public schools, many parents have no "vested" interest in how well their or anyone else's children perform.

There are absolutely terrible teachers and absolutely wonderful teachers. It seems to me that problems facing public schools today are more a result of the combination of apathetic students, absent parenting, lack of discipline, union dictatorship and an inept Department of Education. 

What teachers seem to truly desire are willing, eager students, an orderly, caring and discliplined environment, supportive and compentent administrators and responsible parents/guardians who take the job of parenting seriously. But no amount of salary/benefits is going to take the place of these intangible wants. Until whole communities come together to make their public schools better places then the problems will continute and no amount of money for educators will change that. These changes have to take place at the individual level in the manner of personal responsbility and accountability.

It is very sad to me that in third world countries, children dream and families struggle desparately to send even one family member to school and here in the" land of plenty "we take the opportunity of education for granted and treat it more like a huge burden rather than the privilege that education really is.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Good post house06. Here in MN we have excellent public schools. I'm sure there's poor one's somewhere in the state but not in my neck of the woods. Say what you will, but our teachers earn their money and then some.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

house06 said:


> It is very sad to me that in third world countries, children dream and families struggle desparately to send even one family member to school and here in the" land of plenty "we take the opportunity of education for granted and treat it more like a huge burden rather than the privilege that education really is.


I counseled a young woman once who was 15 and from Nigeria. Her family had been one of the wealthier families there, and her father had sent her to live with an aunt in the USA because he wanted her to have an American High School Diploma (makes it easier to assimilate into US colleges was the reasoning IIRC).

She was having the worst time fitting in at her public high school and had yet to make any friends. Because of her color (she was black) she tried hanging out with the other black kids, but (in her words) they didn't value education and spent more time talking about skipping school and copying each other's homework than trying to learn.

She was depressed and having a hard time adjusting to American life. This was a very studious and serious young woman who understood that education was a gift, not a burden.

In her home country, only the few wealthy sent their kids to expensive private schools. All the other kids worked from sunrise to sunset in the fields, along side their parents. The poor kids were jealous of the rich kids because the rich had the opportunity to receive an education, which was valued.

They had studied the emancipation of American slaves in her homeland, and how hard the African Americans had fought for the ability to be educated. She had expected to arrive here to find people who were grateful for the FREE public education that all children in the US have the RIGHT to receive. 

What she discovered was that now, just a few generations after the fight to make education available for all, the descendents of those slaves were trying to figure out how NOT to attend school because school was "a waste of time". 

She was soooo confused because she knew that the children in her home village would do anything to receive an education - education is the way out of hard manual labor in the fields and the gateway to being able to earn enough money to support a family.

I usually teach the students I counsel....coping skills, self esteem, etc....she was one of the teens who taught ME something. Food for thought.


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## WindowOrMirror (Jan 10, 2005)

I've never blamed the teachers primarily. I've put it squarely on the parents and the government. That said, any time you place a child and a few adults in front of me and ask where the blame lies, I'll pick the adults - in order of involvement - from first to last, and THEN the child.

R


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Scott SW Ohio said:


> Fantasymaker - you might try expressing how you feel about teachers without making a personal attack on one of your fellow HT members.
> 
> *Or if some post gets on your last nerve and you just gotta get it out, here's what I do. I type a heated response, complete with personal insults, and then I DON'T POST IT. In fact, I just did this a minute ago and I feel much better!*


I do that quite often! I formulate a response, but don't post it...

often!


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

bluemoonluck said:


> I agree, as I am not pro-union at all. I've also heard that to get a teaching job in a union state is hard and requires you to know someone. When I was in VA a lot of our teachers came from PA - they would graduate but not have an "in" with the union and come to VA to teach. The county I lived in actually went up to PA and held job fairs to recruit teachers!
> 
> But keep in mind that a lot of states are NOT union states, so blaming the education foils of the entire country on unions protecting ineffective teachers just isn't a sound argument for that reason.


If you knew the power of the NEA and the Department of Education you might reconsider that.

How is it that the NEA always backs raising taxes and Union benefits? 
Why is it that they (NEA) has donated to almost all major candidates both Dem and Rep? Dems seem to get a larger share of that "pot of Gold" aka Bribe money, but Reps do get quite a bit of it also..

Why is it that the only solution to correct education problems, has been to throw more money at the problem for the last 20 or 30 years?

Why can the Department of Education mandate programs, yet not fund them?

Who made the Federal Government "King" in a State issue?

Yes we can blame teachers, because they haven't stood up to the Unions and Government... Instead they took the Bribe money in the form of ever increasing pay and benefits.. They have basically sold out to the Unions.. 

Now they cry because we are calling them out for the Union abuses..

They had a chance to correct the situation and put them selves in a good light, but choose to advance their pay and benefits while the rest of us lost our jobs or had our pay and benefits cut, because of a down economy..

Even now there still are teachers and their Unions calling for more money and benefits or they will go on strike..

So who are the greedy?

Not those of us that took pay cuts to keep our jobs and keep the companies we work for in business..

Now factor in the increasing cost of food and gas, which leaves us even less and then the rise in property taxes(used to pay for education here in PA) to pay for teachers and their benefits and retirements.. 

Why shouldn't we be upset?

Do you live on less because the Unions and Government takes more in taxes?

My property value has dropped, yet I pay more in taxes.. A Public Union workers dream come true.. Steal from the working class

Government employees shouldn't be allowed to Unionize.. PERIOD!


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

beowoulf90 said:


> If you knew the power of the NEA and the Department of Education you might reconsider that.
> 
> How is it that the NEA always backs raising taxes and Union benefits?
> Why is it that they (NEA) has donated to almost all major candidates both Dem and Rep? Dems seem to get a larger share of that "pot of Gold" aka Bribe money, but Reps do get quite a bit of it also..


Not all teachers belong to the NEA. Its a voluntary membership - at least in non-union states. Teachers who do not agree with the NEA and its tactics (and there are a lot of them, believe me) simply do not join, therefore giving them no $!

The NEA has lobbyists in the govt who push for benefits for teachers at the federal level, that is true. Keep in mind that the feds don't directly pay teachers - the state and local gov'ts make those decisions.

The Dept of Education is a laughingstock, that is also true. But its not like all the teachers in the US can demand that the DOE dissolve itself. The DOE is not a company and teachers are not shareholders who can demand that the CEO step down. Blaming teachers for the sorry state of the DOE is just plain silly.

A teacher working in a non-union state who doesn't belong to the NEA is already doing all she/he can to NOT support unions. My sister is a teacher and she hasn't gotten a raise (step raise OR cost of living raise) in over 3 years. Nobody in her county has gotten a raise during this time either. That's pretty much in step with the rest of the economy and the non-teachers out there, correct?


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

bluemoonluck said:


> I remember back when I attended public school, that the principal had a paddle and if you misbehaved he was allowed to use it. If you misbehaved at school, your parent would punish you when you got home too.


Yep, I was a frequent visitor to the principals office and i did get it there and when i got home. Hardheaded i guess lol.



> Now kids get suspended and their parents leave them at home - often alone- all day long with their playstation and wii and tv and nobody imposing rules on them. Honestly, what teenager who is disenchanted with school would consider this a punishment?


I had a solution for my boys when they got suspended. I always had dirt to shovel and haul in a wheelbarrow. Got a fine walkway made to my front porch as well as a pad to put my shed on.




> I hear "Last time I spanked him was in 2nd grade and he went to school and reported me for abuse. CPS looked into my life with a microscope. Ever since then I haven't been able to control him - every time I threaten to even ground him he says he'll go report me again for abuse!"


My boys threatened me with that once. I just smiled and informed them that IF they sho chose to do report me, that I would make darn sure i would be going to jail for a valid reason!


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

bluemoonluck said:


> Not all teachers belong to the NEA. Its a voluntary membership - at least in non-union states. Teachers who do not agree with the NEA and its tactics (and there are a lot of them, believe me) simply do not join, therefore giving them no $!
> 
> The NEA has lobbyists in the govt who push for benefits for teachers at the federal level, that is true. Keep in mind that the feds don't directly pay teachers - the state and local gov'ts make those decisions.
> 
> ...


No, but what you are missing is, *as a general rule* teachers are Dems/liberals who support the Unions and big government...

By doing so, they support the Union and NEA and DOE agendas...

So which way do you want it, because people like myself will call you(in general) out on it.. Because you can't have your cake and eat it to, while the taxpayers are starving/being raped.... But apparently the number of teachers who oppose the agendas of the Unions, NEA and DOE are few/scared.. Other wise we would have heard from them by now.. But we haven't...


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

beowoulf90 said:


> No, but what you are missing is, *as a general rule* teachers are Dems/liberals who support the Unions and big government...
> 
> By doing so, they support the Union and NEA and DOE agendas...
> 
> So which way do you want it, because people like myself will call you(in general) out on it.. Because you can't have your cake and eat it to, while the taxpayers are starving/being raped.... But apparently the number of teachers who oppose the agendas of the Unions, NEA and DOE are few/scared.. Other wise we would have heard from them by now.. But we haven't...


How many teachers do you personally know? Not just in PA, where I believe you said you live, but across the country? PA is a union state, and I'm very anti-union.

My mother was a teacher my entire life; almost all of her friends and associates are teachers. My sister has been a teacher for over a decade; almost all her friends and associates are teachers. Because my mother and sister work in a transient area (northern VA) they've worked with teachers who came from states all across the country. I've personally consulted with teachers of the kids I counsel across 3 different non-union states. I've met and talked with literally thousands of teachers in my lifetime.

Have you ever seen a non-biased poll that proves your statement that teachers *as a general rule* are democrats? My mom is a republican. My sister is a republican. I'm a republican. Lots of their teacher friends are republicans. 

Of the teachers I've known over the years, I'd say it was about a 50/50 split of repubs to dems. Lots of politics gets talked at informal teacher gatherings, believe me I've been hearing union vs non-union and repub vs dem debates in my mom's living room during teacher parties since I was in elementary school.

The people who head unions and the NEA are, I'm sure, pro-union democrats. But that doesn't mean that the majority of the people who choose to teach are democrats!

Your view is colored because you live in a state where there is a teacher union. My view is colored because I've never worked in a union state.

Ever hear of the silent majority?


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

bluemoonluck said:


> How many teachers do you personally know? Not just in PA, where I believe you said you live, but across the country? PA is a union state, and I'm very anti-union.
> 
> My mother was a teacher my entire life; almost all of her friends and associates are teachers. My sister has been a teacher for over a decade; almost all her friends and associates are teachers. Because my mother and sister work in a transient area (northern VA) they've worked with teachers who came from states all across the country. I've personally consulted with teachers of the kids I counsel across 3 different non-union states. I've met and talked with literally thousands of teachers in my lifetime.
> 
> ...


I know a few, both college and HS teachers. 

Head of the language department at Temple,
One of them used to work for VT (Yea in southern VA English department) till her retirement.
High school teachers from all across PA, norther MD and VA...

I'm the commander for a Civil War re-enacting Unit and get to meet all kinds of folks in all kinds of jobs, some of which are teachers.. So yes I do know some teachers.

Yea I've heard of the Silent Majority and don't think they exist...They are a myth or a legend.. 
If they did exist they wouldn't tolerate the abuse, or maybe they are scared or afraid to be exposed for views they won't defend..

So Yes I've heard of them, but I've also heard of Unicorns..


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

shanzone2001 said:


> That was really mean........


OK I'm confused.
I didn't mean for the post to be mean I meant it to be accurate.I cant see anything mean about it.I didnt call names or throw insults.
I tried to express it in a similar way to the Op. Discussing what I see wrong with the public education system.
If its inaccurate please explain how it is so.
But I have to wonder is this how you explain things in class? "You don't agree with me so your mean."


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## cjb (May 2, 2006)

Don't have time to read the entire thread but..

Clearly, one cannot point the finger at one individual or group. Some public school systems are great, some are terrible. Some teachers are great, some are terrible, Some parents, students and so forth.

I do find it interesting that we pay the people who are responsible for the education of the future of this country such low wages yet require that they, themselves, have such a high level of formal education.

Regardless of the particular school district, I think the teacher himself/herself make all the difference in the outcome of the classroom. They should be held accountable, for certain, but they should also be supported, respected and paid well.

We homeschool for the common reasons, however, it hasn't been due to the quality of the local teachers. In fact, I rarely hear that reason given. I do feel that, if you are going to send your kids to school it is your responsibility as a parent to be sure that the teacher is competent and appropriate then give him/her your respect and support and REQUIRE that your children do the same. 

I probably just repeated every other post on this thread. Sorry if so. I guess there's nothing new under the sun, huh?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Ok - there are clearly problems with schools and a big one is a lack of discipline/respect.
and it is very easy to say "it's the parent's fault" and "these kids know how to exploit the system"

And who's fault is that?
I'm going to go with, mostly, the schools.
My first grader came home and told me that we weren't allowed to touch her or punish her because if we did she was supposed to report us to the school and we'd get in trouble. Also that we couldn't make her do chores because we can't _make_ her do anything because that's child exploitation. (Yeah, they taught her that word)

How I, personally, handled that aside, how DARE the school system or anyone involved in it do it's best to undermine parental authority starting in _first grade_ and then complain that high schoolers are out of control?

They teach that you don't have to listen to your parents or do anything that you don't like.
They teach "the system" that kids later exploit.
So frankly, I don't want to hear that it's just _so_ hard dealing with the results.

And secondly, no, we don't value an education in America like they do in some other countries. Why would we?
Seriously. Think about that.
How many people do YOU know with college degrees that are working in fast food, temp jobs or not at all?
In many places, an education is a way to better yourself, to move up in the world.
Here, it is something that kids are forced to put up with till they turn 18 and you are just as likely to get a good paying job with a GED as with an Associates. Since most kids don't plan to get their doctorates - most kids don't see the value.

So yeah, lots of problems in the system.Even the good teachers are working in a bad system.


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## cjb (May 2, 2006)

Otter, I would have pulled my kids that day. I cannot stand it when schools treat our kids like they lay some claim to them.

While I know that it is not for everyone, I am so grateful that my wife schools our kids at home.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Otter - I hope the school had a visit from you - at the least.
That would have had me really really , upset.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

How funny that it was brought up that the school told your first grader that you couldn't punish him or make him do chores..that is the same thing that my son came home saying in the second grade. I had a LONG talk with the school officials over that. But they did admit that they did explain to the kids that corporeal punishment could be reported to CPS. What they failed to tell the kids is that if CPS investigated, the children could be removed from the home and placed in a group home until such time as a foster family could be found. Once I explained THAT to my son, I never heard another peep out of him regarding reporting me to the school (and yes, that is who they were told to tell)..

I never had to spank my son very often, mostly for doing dangerous things that I had told him not to do, like the time I caught him in the paddock with my stallion after telling him many times "Never go in there"..yep he caught a couple of swats on the backside for that one..be still my heart..when he got older, he had "assignments"..he had to write papers detailing what he did and why and why it was wrong and what he could do to avoid the issue in the future. I called it alternative lessons. And he split a LOT of wood..splitting wood really burns off anger issues once they are old enough not to dismember themselves.

By the time he was 14 I had very little to deal with, and to this day, other than a speeding ticket..he's never been in trouble and is respectful of others. I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I wouldn't put up with his "stuff" and the school he attended didn't either.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Deadbeat, uninvolved parents have been getting a pass for too long. They are a larger part of the problem than kids or teachers IMHO.


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

Regardless of the particular school district, I think the teacher himself/herself make all the difference in the outcome of the classroom. They should be held accountable, for certain, but they should also be supported, respected and paid well.

I can not agree with this at all. A school's administration makes all the difference and a lot of teachers will tell you that. I personally knew two principals who had a very positive effect on the school. I knew one who was absolutely awful. The school went down hill fast, stealing, fighting, nobody learned, trash flying around. Finally parents collected signatures to remove him. I was working as a sub the last seven years and my husband worked as a teacher for 30 some years. He caught a teenager in the act of breaking the lock to break into his class room. He usually did not send offenders to the office, it just made trouble for himself. But since this incurred damage, he had to. Result? the Principal put his arm around the student's shoulder and told him that life was not fair and the black students always have it harder. He was promoted to superintendent, but the principal who came after him was a really good one. What a difference he made. 
Teachers are not perfect, some are natural talents, some are not. You may remember what Marilla Cuthbert told Anne when the latter came home talking about the teacher. Something to the effect that Anne could learn plenty from him and she did not want to hear her complain anymore. With a few exceptions, my guess is that most teachers would do a reasonable job if they just could do it.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

cjb said:


> I do find it interesting that we pay the people who are responsible for the education of the future of this country such low wages


LOL I dont know about where you are at but here teaching is about the best paid job around.


And thats before you concider its a part time job, less than half the hours most people in this area work.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

cjb said:


> Otter, I would have pulled my kids that day. I cannot stand it when schools treat our kids like they lay some claim to them.
> 
> While I know that it is not for everyone, I am so grateful that my wife schools our kids at home.





AngieM2 said:


> Otter - I hope the school had a visit from you - at the least.
> That would have had me really really , upset.


Oh, they were soooo sick of me! I was there _All The Time_. Upset does not begin to cover it. 
DD only went to school through 2nd grade, 3 schools as we moved and I transferred her once because I was so sick of these things. I pulled her as soon as I could. 
In that time I was told by a kindergarten teacher that DD would always fail in school - she'd been doing this 20 years and she just knew (she made no secret of her opinion to DD) I let her repeat kindergarten with a different teacher to try to get her confidence back.
I was at the school about over 3 hours of homework a day.
>about the time the police came to the school to fingerprint all children without telling the parents
>about the fact that the last child finished with a worksheet had to stand by the wall at recess
>about the fact that not only did they insist on this asanine dress code (white, yellow or light blue shirts - this was K-2! why the lightest of colors???) but they wouldn't let my child wear the art smock that I provided in art class where they used permanent paint and Sharpie markers.
>relating to the above, if your child got dirty or stained _in school_, you as a parent would get a "bad mark", X # of bad marks and the school called CPS
>>As an example, my DD stepped in dog poo on the school playground at lunch. They called me to come get her. No, I couldn't just bring her new shoes. I got to the school to find my sobbing child ALONE in front of the school. They had thrown out her shoes and not let her back in the building, just brought her stuff out and had her wait. And then they had the NERVE to try and blame me :flame:
>and lets not forget that since she is mildly dyslexic they threatened me with CPS to let them put her in Special Ed. (more state funding) When I pointed out that she was very smart, just a slow reader, and would be bored in Spec. Ed. they told me that THEY would put her on Ritalin if she developed behavior problems.

So at that point, I don't care if her class teacher is the love child of Mother Theresa and Mahatma Gandhi - lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

She is very happy being homeschooled. Right at this second she is reading - for pleasure - and we are all happier not having to deal with any school district.

Yes, teachers have a hard job. There are good ones and bad ones. I feel when a good teacher goes along with a bad system - it makes them a bad teacher.
I've taught in a group setting and it's not easy. But I would NEVER, EVER deal with the kind of rules and regulations that were forced at any school DD has ever gone to (except the Montessori preschool). Because it doesn't work - the system reaps what it sows.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Otter - I'm glad you were there to stand up for her, and against stupid rules. Especially the sneaky, don't tell parents first happenings


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## lorian (Sep 4, 2005)

shanzone2001 said:


> I think homeschooling is a wonderful option. When my children were younger, we homeschooled them (my ex husband worked with them while I taught at the public school).
> I didn't send my children to public school because of the influence from other children, not because the teachers were not doing a good job with instruction.


Yep, teacher preformance has nothing to do with why we home-educate.
And to tell you the truth, I have rarely (in 20 yrs. of homeschooling) heard "bad teachers" as a reason for home-education.


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## Sunbee (Sep 30, 2008)

One thing to keep in mind, a lot of us who home school have gotten bashed by people we know who are teachers, as well as those who are not teachers. We've been told that what we're doing is child abuse by teachers. A certain amount of teacher-bashing is likely self-defense. Doesn't excuse it, but does explain it.


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

I think many teachers are good..but far too many are not capable of stimulating the classroom to make learning interesting and fun. the first response is to medicate them. 
Education today is more like filling the empty jar with knowledge instead of actually teaching why things are like that. 

When teachers are interested and find new innovative ways to teach a subject, the kids will learn. if teachers just want to lecture..the kids get bored...mind wanders. Bad teachers can make even the most interesting subjects PAINFUL. 
I attend the university, and I see it even with the professors. the ones that just lecture....after 20 minutes...mind wanders. professors that are engaging, encourage discussion and use visual stimulation to explain a concept....its quite interesting. I have found myself loving a subject that i never even liked. 
At least in the university, students talk....if a professor has a bad reputation or they suck....their classes dont get filled. 
Too bad we cant choose our children's teacher like that. If kids are having behavioral problems, then its up to the teacher to bring them back around and make the classroom fun and interesting. 
if i had to sit in a classroom for 8 hours with a boring professor, i seriously doubt i could behave either. 45 minutes is TORTURE! 
I dont like to hear kids under the age of 12 "dont want to learn". i dont believe that. at that age and younger they still want approval. Most teachers think its enough to get up in front of the classroom and talk. no..it isnt. if a classroom is having behavioral problems, perhaps the teacher needs to find out another way to reach the kids. 
we have far too many medicated kids in elementary school..because that is the answer when teachers cannot teach.The Teachers job is to FIND a way. no wonder when these kids get to high school they abuse these stimulants.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

lilmizlayla said:


> I think many teachers are good..but far too many are not capable of stimulating the classroom to make learning interesting and fun. the first response is to medicate them.
> Education today is more like filling the empty jar with knowledge instead of actually teaching why things are like that.
> 
> When teachers are interested and find new innovative ways to teach a subject, the kids will learn. if teachers just want to lecture..the kids get bored...mind wanders. Bad teachers can make even the most interesting subjects PAINFUL.
> ...


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

bluemoonluck said:


> I counseled a young woman once who was 15 and from Nigeria. Her family had been one of the wealthier families there, and her father had sent her to live with an aunt in the USA because he wanted her to have an American High School Diploma (makes it easier to assimilate into US colleges was the reasoning IIRC).
> 
> She was having the worst time fitting in at her public high school and had yet to make any friends. Because of her color (she was black) she tried hanging out with the other black kids, but (in her words) they didn't value education and spent more time talking about skipping school and copying each other's homework than trying to learn.
> 
> ...


This story speaks volumes on NOT having free education! When there is a cost associated with anything, people tend to respect how hard it is to obtain and they cherish the opportunity. Maybe we ought to return to a system where kids should have the opportunity to work for their education!


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

barelahh said:


> This story speaks volumes on NOT having free education!


I don't think that's it at all.
I think that the reason more kids don't value it is they don't see the value in it. When I was 20 I was assistant manager at a Subway. Took the job because I hurt my back - they never asked about my education, only if I could stand for 6 hours at a stretch.
The other assistant manager was 4 years older then I and had an Associates in Business Management. I bet she cursed every time she put on that green shirt and thought of paying off her student loans.
_
An education here no longer gets you anything._

There are a few exceptions like Doctor and Lawyer - but everyone I know in those professions fully expects to be paying off debt till they're pushing 40. They fully plan on giving up every other aspect of their lives to pursue this _one_ goal because they have a passion about it.

And now lets take a look at my brothers;
Older brother got excellent grades and a scholarship to the Manhattan Institute of Technology, where he worked hard and worked part time as a Maitre D. Got his degree and found it didn't help him one bit in getting a job. Went to full time as the Maitre D and ended up working construction with his brother.

Younger brother dropped out of HS and went to work doing construction at 16. Part time at first so he had time to get his GED - which he did mostly to stop the other guys from ragging on him for being stupid.
Was full time by 19, had plenty of time and money to party during his early 20's and is now 30, making 40,000 a year and owns his own home.

Now, don't get me wrong, I want my daughter to learn everything she can and I want her to go to college - but I cannot blame American kids for looking at the world they live in and thinking "Don't need it" when it comes to education.
In some other countries it is different because in some other countries the education WILL get you the job.


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## house06 (Jan 4, 2007)

I think sometimes higher education IS overrated. But in many cases, just having a HS diploma makes it hard to earn a living wage. I wonder if some of the overrated college diplomas has to do with the fact that many college students take the easy route and take4-6 years getting a liberal arts degree, graduate with ALOT of student loan debt and are somehow fooled into believing that with a university studies degree, or a major in Japanese that automatically earns them the right to make $50K a year and step into a supervisor position.

I am more and more a proponent of students exploring all options after high school and not just attending local U , 4-6 years because they really dont want to work and cant think of anything else better to do. I see way too many students like that at the college where I teach.  Because we have told kids they are "losers" if they dont go out and pursue that liberal arts degree in college and then when they are done, we forgot to tell them along the way that without any job skills, an unmarketable degree in flooded career fields, and unrealistic expectations of beginning salaries and benefits, OOPS they are up the creek without a job and massive student loan debt. We need to do better!!!

Along the same lines, I am always surprised when first year college students tell me they plan on being pharmacy/pre med/ research scientist or any other difficult and higly technical field and then in the next breath declare they hate math and science and didnt take higher than algebra in HS. Not saying it cant be done, but WOW how challenging is that?? With absolutely no background in either math or science and a distinct distate for either or both, seems like a very long and painful college experience. Where has career counseling gone??? It seems anymore that many students coming straight from HS want a career that "sounds" prestigious or makes lots of money, with absolutely no forethought or planning on how to get there. In my classes I used a common prompt for writing "what do you see yourself doing and name some goals for the next 5 years" some of the plans were so outrageous that I restructured the question to define steps you will take to get there. Then the trouble started because those students had NO IDEA what their ambition or goals would take to achieve. Pretty downright scary.


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## WindowOrMirror (Jan 10, 2005)

bluemoonluck said:


> Ever hear of the silent majority?


If they are silent, they will not have any input, and there is _no possible way_ to assert that they are the 'majority'.


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

I push all of my kids into college..NOT going isnt an option. I have 3 soon to be four in college. I even attend the university to complete my degree. 

I firmly believe that education is the key to advancement. True, they may choose to shovel dirt for a living, but it is really nice to be well rounded educationally. I would rather have it and not need it, than to not have it and need it. 
Been there and dont that..and it is not a nice feeling. I dont want my kids to ever think an education isnt the most important goal. I dont want them doing slave labor unless they choose to....not because they have to.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

WindowOrMirror said:


> If they are silent, they will not have any input, and there is _no possible way_ to assert that they are the 'majority'.


Not quite. There are lots of times when that silent majority isn't known until they show up to vote. At which point its clear they are the majority.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I got hired at GEICO - along with 34 other people in my group - solely because they were beefing up their efforts to hire workers with bachelor's degrees. To get into management you had to have a 4-year degree in SOMETHING.

My training group included myself (BA in Archaeology) as well as BA and BS degrees in history, english, political science, psychology, visual arts/art history, etc. Not a one of us had a business degree or any other degree that equated to working in the insurance industry.

My BIL has been with GEICO for over 10 years. He's a model employee, gets rave reviews and is a workaholic - exactly what corporations want. He also gets regularly passed over for promotions, because he dropped out after his first year in college. So the college grads get the jobs that he is passed over for, and he is told that he was "it" for the job except for that pesky lack of a 4-year degree thing.

So yeah, if you get a degree in history, you may end up working in a different field. But having that degree IME means you get promoted faster and end up making more $$ than those without the sheepskin.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

LOL yep the Undegreed are still one of the groups you can discriminate against.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

In many ways it's validation by those who have the degrees. It would be horrible to have to work for someone who was successful in their field without a degree.

It's a fairly old business model, just updated for the flavor of the day really.

That said... if that's what it takes and you want to earn more... you do what you have to.

IMO though, that model is changing a bit in the modern world.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

fantasymaker said:


> LOL yep the Undegreed are still one of the groups you can discriminate against.


I agree.
When I worked for the Prison system, you couldn't get promoted very far without a degree, didn't matter in what. I knew a guy with a degree in Poultry Science and that counted.
I think it is because those near the top want people that paid for a degree like they did and actual knowledge of the job takes a second place.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

lilmizlayla said:


> I push all of my kids into college..NOT going isnt an option. I have 3 soon to be four in college. I even attend the university to complete my degree.
> 
> I firmly believe that education is the key to advancement. True, they may choose to shovel dirt for a living, but it is really nice to be well rounded educationally. I would rather have it and not need it, than to not have it and need it.
> Been there and dont that..and it is not a nice feeling. I dont want my kids to ever think an education isnt the most important goal. I dont want them doing slave labor unless they choose to....not because they have to.


Yup yup yup.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

haypoint said:


> I agree.
> When I worked for the Prison system, you couldn't get promoted very far without a degree, didn't matter in what. I knew a guy with a degree in Poultry Science and that counted.
> I think it is because those near the top want people that paid for a degree like they did and actual knowledge of the job takes a second place.


I've always been told by HR reps that having a college degree shows a level of dedication and "stick-to-it-ness" that carries over to job performance. Showing that you can make it through a 4-year program - managing your time and earning the grades - shows strength of character.

Which doesn't mean there are no high school grads with the same character. It just means that employers have found a trend - those with college degrees *tend *to do better work, learn faster/better, and are more willing to stick out difficulties than those without the degree.


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

seedspreader said:


> In many ways it's validation by those who have the degrees. It would be horrible to have to work for someone who was successful in their field without a degree.


This si too true! My Dad who left the land of his birth in 1964 because of a pervasive class sytem that would have stopped his promotion beyond a certain level in the insurance industry, became a top man and very well respected by many people int he marine industry worldwide. He did not have a college degree but did have some training thru classes. In this day he would not even get a foot in the door in the industry even though he was one of the best.


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

The obsession of business that put degrees over ability has destroyed this countries manufacturing ability. I have seen hundreds of companies destroy themselves by hiring idiots with degrees and then implementing their idiotic theories. 

"O"


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

bluemoonluck said:


> I've always been told by HR reps that having a college degree shows a level of dedication and "stick-to-it-ness" that carries over to job performance. Showing that you can make it through a 4-year program - managing your time and earning the grades - shows strength of character.
> 
> Which doesn't mean there are no high school grads with the same character. It just means that employers have found a trend - those with college degrees *tend *to do better work, learn faster/better, and are more willing to stick out difficulties than those without the degree.


LOL pure blind prejudice on the part of degreed HR people.
You don't think that getting up and supporting a family by going to work every day shows those qualities?
Face it some of the planets stupidest people have degrees.
One of the PSA that runs here asks How you gonna take your baby to the sitter make it to school ,do your homework and still be at work on time with no public transportation?
Sometimes you have to be a Genius to make it when your poor.
Id like to see some fair studies.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

fantasymaker said:


> LOL pure blind prejudice on the part of degreed HR people.


I'm sure that is true, to an extent.

Sit down and have a conversation with HR reps at large corporations... what a lot of people don't realize is that they are responsible for the people they hire. Hiring people is expensive - advertizing a position, going thru resumes, interviewing top candidates, running background tests/drug screens, etc. So a big part of any HR rep's personal job eval is what percentage of the people they personally hire are still at the company vs. washed out/quit/fired, and of those who are still employed how are they performing.

If your job relied upon hiring the RIGHT person - they'd have to stay for 12 months minimum and during those 12 months receive at least satisfactory job performance ratings - you'd pick those who you felt had a higher statistical chance of doing those things....or you yourself (as HR rep) would be out of a job.

So the HR reps look at the current employees in their company - backgrounds, college records, job performance, job history before coming to the company, etc - and figure out STATISTICALLY who is the best bet to hire. Sure, some of them take a gamble on someone who doesn't fit the profile that they get a good gut feeling about, but if your job depends largely on who you hire, you'd do your homework.


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## house06 (Jan 4, 2007)

I agree that today having a college degree is important in many ways, for one, many jobs are not even accessible without a college degree. However, I think in HS and in college we do a very poor job of career counseling as many students think because they are "smart" or get a college degree then they are golden. What they do not seem to understand is that education alone does not success make. I am certainly not "knocking" liberal arts education as I have two liberal arts degrees, however I think we really need to knock down the perception that just because you go to college that you are going to be highly successful

A new study just released by Harvard indicates that too many students are going to college and not being successful in doing so, (1) do not learn much while in school (2) do not graduate or take 5-6 years to do so (3) graduate and cannot find jobs within a reasonable amount of time( due to glut of applicants in their field, generally liberal arts, and lack of any transferable work skills).

Another study indicated that a growing trend is to not hire newly graduated college students if an older more experienced applicant is available. Why? Because "many" newly matriculated workers are " unreliable", "not professional in appearance/ work behavior" and have "unrealistic" expectations regarding pay/benefits starting out. Granted this is a generalization, but it is a growing trend. 

I am not advocating NOT going to college. I teach at the college level and have one daughter in college and we have told BOTH of our children since first grade they would go to college. We realize it is an opportunity for them. However, not everyone should go to 4 year college because that is what society expects from them. ALL should either go to 4 year college, 2 year program or some type of techincal/vocational/trade school which will enhance their earning potential and meet the "school" requirement we seem to have anymore.

But it seems to me to be a successfully economic and labor orientated society we need a "healthy" mix of those who are considered academics and those who are skilled labor , self employed and other professions which do not require college degrees and have the technical skills and know how to keep our country running and these folks should be well compensated and not penalized because they didnt sit in college classrooms and attend fraternity parties for 4-6 years. 

We really really need to do a better job with helping young adults determine a career path and not "disenfranchise" ( like that lofty academic word?) or look down on young adults who want to pursue worthy careers that do not include high scores on SAT/ACT tests. 

I am reading Millionaire Mind by Thomas Stanley and it is interesting to note that of the 900+ interviewed for the book, only a handful scored really well on SAT and did very well in college and those were lawyers and doctors. The remaining were "average" students and some were even below average and not even considered college material and some were even college dropouts who went on to become multimillionaires. For the most part it had very very little to do with intelligence or academic success and very much to do with playing up to individual strengths, incredible work ethic, strong love of chosen profession and an almost obsessive desire to get ahead. These are probably the most valuable lessons that we could pass along to our emerging young adults. And sadly, it is generally not being taught in college classrooms.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

bluemoonluck said:


> If your job relied upon hiring the RIGHT person - they'd have to stay for 12 months minimum and during those 12 months receive at least satisfactory job performance ratings - you'd pick those who you felt had a higher statistical chance of doing those things....or you yourself (as HR rep) would be out of a job.
> 
> So the HR reps look at the current employees in their company - backgrounds, college records, job performance, job history before coming to the company, etc - and figure out STATISTICALLY who is the best bet to hire. Sure, some of them take a gamble on someone who doesn't fit the profile that they get a good gut feeling about, but if your job depends largely on who you hire, you'd do your homework.


Really ? Do they really do that? even if they do wouldn't that statistic be skewed from their prior hiring practices?

Or could it simply be that since they have a degree they know what goes into getting it and they are comfortable hiring people with the same background?
Ever notice that when you go into a business often all the help has a similar look but when you ask if its a family place they laugh?
Its human nature to like and trust those that look and have similar backgrounds to you.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

fantasymaker said:


> Really ? Do they really do that? even if they do wouldn't that statistic be skewed from their prior hiring practices?


Yes, they really do that. It's their job, and its not as easy as people may think.

Keep in mind that in large corporations there are employees from all walks of life working a myraid of jobs from mail clerk all the way up the food chain. Its not like they're only hiring for the IT dept or only for the secretary job. They should have fairly representative data to work with.

It works the other way too. People with degrees have a hard time getting hired for what HR considers "menial" jobs.....so as desperate as someone may be to work and put food on the table for their family, if they have a college degree they probably aren't going to get hired to be the janitor. Because the HR rep knows that statistically people with college degrees are only taking this job as a bridge until they can find a job with a higher salary that more closely matches their education and job history.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Blue moon What about that other group? Those that have years of experiance? Where do they fit in?


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