# Time to box fleece, advice needed



## therealshari (Jul 10, 2007)

Hello y'all,

I've skirted the first seven fleeces and am now ready to box them up. They weigh between 4.5 and 8 lbs. What size box do I need for each individual fleece?

Should I keep the fleece in the plastic bag or take it out? Does the box need to be lined with anything?

I want to get this done correctly as we actually have decent fleeces this year.

Thanks in advance for the advice.


----------



## Somerhill (Dec 13, 2005)

Are you storing them, shipping them to buyers, or to the processor?

Lisa


----------



## therealshari (Jul 10, 2007)

Hi Lisa,

I've posted them for sale and really expect to sell them over the next 3 months. They'll be sold to hand-spinners and felters.


----------



## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Storing in plastic isn't bad for a short term storage. Most of the fleeces I receive are in plastic.

I like to store long term in cloth bags (pillow cases).


----------



## therealshari (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks Cyndi,

Isn't it Paul who's the really good box packer? We have to buy boxes and want to get the right size the first time... so how much fleece can we pack into what size box and not bust out the glued corners on the boxes? And, do you keep the fleece in the plastic when you box it?


----------



## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Not my Paul! He's more into being a pack rat then doing a major purge!!

I keep my fleece like this:











One of these days I'll get it organized again


----------



## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

In the plastic bags, just be sure to squeeze out the air, push and squeeze out more air, push and squeeze out more air. You can get a fleece squished down pretty small. You might have to use a reverse air, like maybe a vacuum cleaner attachment.


----------



## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Whatever box you can squish them into. If you are selling them have you already photographed them? If not you may want to take pictures as you skirt, # number them, and then box them up. Don't be afraid of squishing them into a small space. Once opened up they will expand. I think that is one of the thrills of a fiber person, opening the box and watching the fibers explode :banana02:

I think that is what is called Sheep Thrills :lookout:


----------



## Meg Z (Jun 8, 2004)

Marchwind said:


> I think that is what is called Sheep Thrills :lookout:


I'd groan, but I'm too busy laughing.:cute:

That'd make somebody a great shop name!!!

Meg


----------



## therealshari (Jul 10, 2007)

You gals are too funny!

I keep telling my roomie that a vacuum cleaner does a really slick job. Is it possible to pack 5 lbs of fleece into a 12 x 12 x 12 box or should I get a bigger box?

Yes, I've taken pictures and added them to my online gallery so you can see the before (on the sheep), the dirty fleece before I even stop working on it, and the finished product after about an hour of picking, shaking, turning, checking for and removing second cuts, etc.


----------



## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Sheep Thrills

that rocks!

I am in another fiber swap on craftster.org ... Squooshed 2# of fiber into a priority envelope. emailed her and warned her about a bulging, belching bag heading her way


----------



## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Loving those greys, Shari!

Are you gals having problems with your website??


----------



## therealshari (Jul 10, 2007)

Hi Cyndi, 

Thanks, they're really lush when in hand, too. Just enough lanolin to take care of my very dry hands. 

Obviously, we're going to have to practice a it on smooshing fleece around here. Bev had a 12x15x10 that she couldn't even begin to pack a 5# fleece into, before the box seams were stressed.

I just hope I have these fleeces priced right. Don't feel we can ask premium prices until we're more established, but at the same time, don't want to offend other sellers by selling at too low of a price.

I'm always open to any feedback.

Oh, regarding website issues... Our datacenter is located in Texas and earlier in the week, they had severe T-storms and a big power surge took out one of their UPS's and also, their upstream provider was hit, too. It's been a rocky week of up and down as they shift stuff around and make the repairs. Thankfully they even notified us about it.


----------



## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Shari how many times are you shearing a year? I only ask because your staple seems awfully short, at least to me. I only saw the staple length on 2 (?) fleeces and a third one didn't mention staple length. I only saw 3 fleeces posted.


----------



## Liese (Dec 12, 2005)

After reading Susan's remark on staple length I went to look too. Firstly, that background of ropes was extremely difficult to read against but I persevered and am really surprised at 2-2.5" length listed on the 2 fleeces. All of my flock are at *least* 1" longer so if it's been 12 months since their last shearing I think this may be a sign of poor nutrition - you may want to look at getting your feed and hay tested - not popular here and with the drought I'm figuring at best I'm feeding a step above straw; alfalfa pellets are a saving grace. Of course if they were sheared 6 months ago then never mind! Also let me pass on a tip another shepherdess gave me that I really have faith in - kelp. I add it to the loose mineral and they love it.


----------



## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Liese interesting about the kelp. Do you feed it to your bunnies too? I take kelp because I don't do iodized salt and very little salt if I do use it.

I was surprised at the staple length especially since most of the breeds are known for nice long staple length.


----------



## therealshari (Jul 10, 2007)

First off, let's see if I'm measuring correctly. These are Merino sheep and have a pretty good crimp. Should I be straightening the lock or measuring it as shown in my pictures?

Last year, we had a problem with the fiber breaking and I inquired of our shearer, who said "here on the desert, anything over 3 inches seems to have breaks".

We feed alfalfa year around and see temp extremes from -25 to over 100 degrees F. Some days we have a 50 degree swing in temps. 

We're feeding exactly the same feed as all the other sheep stations. In fact, we get our hay directly from them, right out of the same barn their feeding. 

Oh, and we shear annually. 

Next week I'll be skirting the neighbor's fleeces. He has some Merino x PolyPay, as well as some purebred PolyPay. He feeds the same feed and is has about the same setup as we do. Will be interesting to see if there's a difference.

Again, I'm open to feedback. I'd be happy to send y'all a small sample to test... maybe a couple ounces? PM me if you'd like to do some analysis. I'm a newbie who really wants to provide a quality product for you.


----------



## weever (Oct 1, 2006)

Sounds like you have pretty extreme temps there, Shari. 

I learned from expert wool people that the break in the wool is caused by stress. Pregnancy and lactation is stress (which is partly why we shear a month before pregnancy). Poor nutrition is stress. Illness is stress. I suppose extreme temps would be stressful, too. 

Anyway, a sheep will have stress in its life. The trick as a shepherd is to time the stress and the shearing so that any breakage occurs near one end of the staple.

Back to my lurking...


----------



## Liese (Dec 12, 2005)

Weever -excellent succinct post! Unlike mine:


Hi Shari, Here in NC we have temps that will raise 30* from morning to afternoon, the summer months are in the mid 90's with high humidity - in other words UGH! but all fields have shade shelters made from cattle panel hoops or tree belts (which are definitely the best shade). I put out loose mineral every 2-3x week with the kelp added (haven't tried feeding it to bunnies but an interesting idea!) - the mineral with the high salt content makes the sheep drink more water so we have lots of buckets - the white ones are preferred over the colours ( haven't figured that out yet) and they have fresh water 3-4 times/day. I've read posts from people dry lotting who use big fans in the barn with cattlepanel between the sheep & fans, wetting the floor down between so that the air is cooler. So I do think that with observation and tinkering we can keep the sheep as comfortable as possible which may reduce the stress on them. But perhaps the sheep in your area have been *inadvertently* selected for shorter staple, not much you can do if it's genetics! You're measuring it properly when the lock's in the relaxed state. Normally I think of alf hay as cadillac feed but if that's all they ever get you may still want your state ag dept to test it - maybe something's up there. If you go to the OK State website for sheep breeds you'll see what the norms are for wool length. The other thing that comes to mind is talking to your State Vet School or an extension agent in your state that really specializes in wool breeds. Maybe they'll have some ideas for you to check out.


----------



## Meg Z (Jun 8, 2004)

Liese said:


> - the white ones are preferred over the colours ( haven't figured that out yet) .


Liese, you do know...you just aren't allowing yourself to see it! Think why you wear lighter colors in the hot weather and darker colors in the cool weather.


----------



## Liese (Dec 12, 2005)

Well I did think about water temp being affected but with these buckets in the shade I sure don't feel a difference in the temp with my hand and algae growth doesn't seem to be any different, plus all are cleaned out every other day but we purposefully put the darker buckets in the sun in the winter to help keep the water warmer longer. You got any other thoughts - I'm game to try experimenting!


----------



## Meg Z (Jun 8, 2004)

Liese said:


> Well I did think about water temp being affected but with these buckets in the shade I sure don't feel a difference in the temp with my hand and algae growth doesn't seem to be any different, plus all are cleaned out every other day but we purposefully put the darker buckets in the sun in the winter to help keep the water warmer longer. You got any other thoughts - I'm game to try experimenting!


What you feel with your hands is one thing. Put thermometers in the middle of those buckets. If it's what you're drinking, even one degree would make a difference.

Of course, it could just be that the chemicals that color those things tastes like what comes out of the south end of a north-bound kangaroo! 

Meg


----------



## Liese (Dec 12, 2005)

Didn't think about the chemicals leaching .... looks like I'll need to do a taste test myself, after a thorough cleaning. And I'll check the temps too.


----------



## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

It could also be that white/light may be easier to keep clean since you can see the dirt, algae easier.


----------



## therealshari (Jul 10, 2007)

As for watering, once we have no serious freezing at night we revert to an automatic watering valve on our 50 gal black roughneck tub. We're on excellent well water. In the winter, we break ice twice a day at least and remove the ice each time, refilling as necessary. 

We have very little algae build up using the black tubs. 

Our horses were using white barrels and we fought algae on a regular basis.

I've checked the Colorado State Univ Ext stuff, and we may be a 1/4 to 1/2 inch short on the staple, but no more. Is it possible I chose a less than optimal place to take my measurement?


----------



## Liese (Dec 12, 2005)

We have black, red and white buckets- if I run my hands along the inside they'll all feel slick from algae, it's just that the white shows it earlier/more for us. With our smaller numbers we can always provide hot water for the morning water, and the evening too if it warrants it -but we're putting out 10 gal of water not 50. 50 gal would be a waste for even the sheep flock of 25 - the water would be soiled too fast. 

A merino according to the OK state site should have a staple length of 90mm, which is a bit more than 4 inches so I'm thinking your crossbreeding is pulling that down - still my pure bred Dorset girls have a very regular length of 3.5", the Jacobs start at 3.5 and hover more at 4". I'm measuring in several places but all in the blanket area where the measurement has the most meaning for handspinners. The neck wool will actually be longer but also more VM so I'm careful about how much of that is included.


----------



## therealshari (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks Liese for the specific information. I have also made contact with the lady who sold us our ram. I'm going to have her look over our fleeces this week end. 

Also, I still have two fleeces from last year and will compare the two. They are from our matriarch (the mother of 95% of our flock) and our ram.

It's really hard to assimilate all the different information we get, and also to be able to apply all the different management ideas.

Most folks around here consider our animals pretty spoiled and extremely well cared for, so when we don't seem to have product that comes up to snuff, we start doing a lot of "head scratching".


----------



## Liese (Dec 12, 2005)

If you're breeding this fall, perhaps you might want to find another ram to use - the more you write the more I think you're looking at genetics but maybe the biology specialist Meg could speak to that better.


----------



## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Shari another thing you may want to consider. If all you neighbors are shearing and selling their fleeces to a mill or a pool then it doesn't matter much what their fleeces are like, staple length at least. But your chosen market is far more picky


----------



## therealshari (Jul 10, 2007)

Good point Marchwind.

If I can catch up with our mentor, she is a hand spinner, and should be able to provide some "hands on" feedback. I know last year, I gave her a sample of our ram's wool and she felt it spun up quite nicely. 

I've saved the fleece from our oldest gal, who I believe is full Merino, and also from the ram who we believe is 3/4 Merino 1/4 Suffolk. 

The whole reason for this cross was to add size to the Merino as they're really quite small. The triplets (daughters of the full blood Merino) have either PolyPay or Suffolk blood added. I can see thtat by observation of the ewes. Two of them are very much "Merino looking"... still quite small, excellent fiber crimp, etc. The third sister is larger by about 10%, and her fleece has a lot less crimp.

Our ram is BIG. He weighs close to 350# and stands a foot taller than most of our ewes. You can see the Suffolk in him by looking at his huge head. His fleece tends more to the Merino in regards to crimp and feel.

Now, all this crossing was started by the previous owners, so we're working with what we have regarding genetics. My goal is to provide a naturally colored wool that is pleasing for the hand spinner.

With that said, and considering I'm not a spinner, what kind of effect does a short staple have in regards to hand spinning?


----------



## MTDeb (Feb 20, 2003)

Isn't it funny how the genetics show through, it's always a surprise! Be aware too that suffolk is a down breed and does not felt. That could be good and bad, depending on what a person wants to do. It's great for socks and things you're going to throw in the washing machine but not so good if you want to felt with it. A soft, non-felting wool might be really nice!?!?!


----------



## therealshari (Jul 10, 2007)

Ok, after consulting with mentor, here is her suggestion...

She highly recommends y'all request samples from me so you can see, feel and work with what I have to see how it fits into your needs. I'm wanting you to tell me where I need to improve in order to provide a decent naturally colored Merino wool.

Additionally, if Merino is becoming "so-so" and not so popular amongst hand-spinners, tell me so, and recommend the breed you'd like spin. I have immediate access to PolyPay (and I'll include samples) and am looking for a couple head of Jacob sheep. Having just returned from a neighbor who has Jacob sheep, I'm not happy with what I see of her flock this year so will have to search for better stock.

The fleece I'll send for samples includes Merino (the flock matriarch), Merino x (not sure if it's PolyPay or Suffolk) from the triplets, Merino x 1/4 Suffolk (ram), and a sample of a PolyPay from last year. That should give you plenty to work with and provide me solid feedback as to what you see, feel, and would prefer to see and feel.

Receiving samples does not obligate you to any kind of purchase. I also understand you may already have purchase way too many fleeces (if only hubby knew) and will have to turn those into products before you could even think about purchasing. 

I really thank y'all in advance for all your help.


----------



## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Merino are small sheep? Really? I thought they were supposed to be huge, great big sheep! Well I'll be. I saw a Merino Ram and Romney Ram at the Shepherd's Harvest, I thought they were pure bred (but maybe not) they were huge sheep with fleece every where on their body. It was funny because I remember thinking the Romney and the merino looked so much alike, all wrinkly and everything but the Romney reminded me of a Clydesdale horse the way he had been sheared, his feet were left fuzzy, lol!!

Well now I'm just stumped because I thought they, Merino, were supposed to be a big breed. But what do I know I don't have sheep I just like their fibers :shrug:


----------



## Liese (Dec 12, 2005)

Susan, et al check out this site and look at the Delaine Merino http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/index.htm

This thread has given me a reason to do a bit of reading on Merino sheep - lots of Merino breeds out there, many of them are quite large. but it would seem that Shari's are some form of Delaino based on her comments about size and the staple lengths. Tho 2" is at the low end of the scale of 2-4"

Shari are you going to have your fleeces micron tested? Maybe your state Ag offers it - those numbers might help over come the shorter staple if the fleeces are fine enough. Just a thought. The other thought that comes to me is that if you had your fleeces processed into roving would that by pass the staple discussion? In other words when I see others selling rovings I don't see staple length of the original fleece mentioned - but I don't buy rovings myself so maybe Susan and Cyndi would speak to this idea?


----------



## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Liese I found that site last night but was just as dumbfounded by the number of different Merino sheep there are. Who would a thunk it  Lots of research and breeding to get what people want or so it seems. I'll go back and look at that specific Merino breed.

As for roving I myself don't usually buy it but it is a good thought. Or, maybe even have it spun into Yarn.


----------



## therealshari (Jul 10, 2007)

I have the information for getting the micron testing done in Texas. I believe that should be the next step. 

Last year I got "hands-on" feedback from Meg Z, DonsGal, and OceanRose, who all indicated the wool had a "break" and they noted it didn't feel "all that fine". At that time, I chose not to pursue micron testing, but with our own personal finances in a little better shape, I think it's time to "get 'er done".

We're not sure what caused the break as the sheep were subjected to a number of stresses ranging from feed quality, lack of shelter (previous owner), lambing, and change of farms.

As for the breed of Merino, I believe they are the Delaine Merino and may not be pure-bred but rather "grade". There are few written records to give me clues as to their bloodlines. 

I've thought about sending the fleeces out to create rovings, but that means I'm looking at still a different market segment, and I've yet to successfully identify whether or not the raw fleece market is suitable. I like to do one thing at a time and would prefer to do it well.

Back to the sheep themselves, our flock currently consists of the matriarch and her triplet ewes (they lambed for the first time this year). Our matriarch has lambed three times (twice before we got her). She had triplets, quads (she had three survivors and raised two, with the third relegated to a bottle), and quads (three surviving and raising all herself). 

Of her triplets, two yielded twins, and the one had a rupture and lost triplets. She will be culled.

We have another maiden Merino ewe who is the daughter of our ram, and she yielded twins.

We also once again have a single Polypay ewe lamb. She was given to us for the ewe who lost her triplets. We'll be keeping her, too as she is gorgeous!

We plan to keep one ram lamb from the matriarch (son of our ram), breed this fall using only our ram again, and then split our flock to accommodate the junior ram next year. That way, we won't chance breeding to half-sisters.

Within the next couple years, we'll no longer use our Merino x Suffolk ram, and still have significant diversity within our gene pool and be able to breed more selectively for finer wool.


----------



## Meg Z (Jun 8, 2004)

Isn't it frustrating to know what your end goal is, and have to be working toward it with 'the best of what's available', rather than just 'the best'? We all see our end goals soooo clearly, but getting there can be so hard!

Shari, you are working so diligently toward your goal. I applaud you for that. But don't forget that sometimes we get so intent on our finishline that we don't realize that more than one race was running at the same time.

So, if your TRUE end goal is to market your wool, don't run the race to the raw wool market, and overlook the race to the roving market. I'd say there are far more people who buy rovings than raw wool. Both of those races end with a buyer. And with the surge in knitting, finished yarn is another market. Look hard at all of them.

Since you bought sheep that were the best available, rather than exactly what you would have purchased for your chosen market, perhaps while you work toward your chosen market, you need to utilize others on the way. Send these fleeces out for roving, and then evaluate your hogget fleeces next spring as handspinners raw fleeces. 

All that babble boils down to...don't overlook one good market that your product is already perfect for, trying for a different market that it's not yet ready for. Use the one while you work toward the other.

Meg


----------



## therealshari (Jul 10, 2007)

Meg, I am willing to pursue things that get us as close to "profitable" as possible at some point in the future. 

With that said, do you have recommendations as to where to send? 

I guess what really concerns me most is the cost of washing. I'm so green at this that I don't understand at what point I get billed for the various processes.

You've seen our fleece from last year. We're maybe 30% cleaner this year than last. I'm not prepared to "pre wash" so what's your recommendation?


----------



## Meg Z (Jun 8, 2004)

therealshari said:


> Meg, I am willing to pursue things that get us as close to "profitable" as possible at some point in the future.
> 
> With that said, do you have recommendations as to where to send?
> 
> ...



Hmmmm....I prep my own fleeces, from sheep into batts, so don't use a service. But, I'd contact as many as I had time for, tell them what you want, and that you're looking for a place to do long-term business with as your flock grows. Have a list of questions that you know you need answered, and write down more as they occur to you. Take notes on their prices, pricing methods, shipping costs, everything that's pertinent, and then compare.

A second alternative is to narrow the list down to several, and send each of them a couple fleeces, then compare the final product.

I believe several people here have used a service. They may be able to make recommendations. I know a family about an hour away that does, too. I'll check and see who they use, and what their costs are and let you know what I find out. Anyone else in here have any contacts to start a search out with?

Sorry I can't just say...'here, use these folks; they're best.' I wish I could!

Meg


----------



## therealshari (Jul 10, 2007)

Meg, that sample you got from last year... I assume you washed it? If so, did it come clean in one washing? How much VM was left in it? I'm working hard to get my courage up. I don't see me using the regular washer, and the kitchen or a big outdoor tub may be my only other option.

Also, I just read on Spinderella's (wool processor in Salt Lake City) that "weathered tips" can be an issue. They recommend cutting them off. Your thoughts please...


----------



## Meg Z (Jun 8, 2004)

therealshari said:


> Meg, that sample you got from last year... I assume you washed it? If so, did it come clean in one washing? How much VM was left in it? I'm working hard to get my courage up. I don't see me using the regular washer, and the kitchen or a big outdoor tub may be my only other option.
> 
> Also, I just read on Spinderella's (wool processor in Salt Lake City) that "weathered tips" can be an issue. They recommend cutting them off. Your thoughts please...


Sorry it took so long...I had to think. More sand than dirt really, if I remember right, and I only washed part of it. I handwashed that, so I made sure it came clean in one time. I don't know if it all would have come out in a regular wash the way I do it.

What I'd reeaaalllly like to get for fleece washing is an old wringer washer that I can hook up the hose to the sink with, and drain into a hose that runs outside to grey water. That would be perfect. Haven't found one I'm willing to pay for close enough to think about. But you might!

On tips...it depends on the fleece. I kind of like the heathered look bleached tips can give the yarn...if they're sound. I'll test them. If they break, they they have to come off. If they're sound, they stay. Mostly, mine are sound. I haven't had much breaking issue. I'll bet the humidity here helps with that, and you'd probably have more brittle ends than I do. That's just a guess, though.

I'm guessing that your geographical conditions are so different from mine that any 'advice' I may have would be worthless to you in the long run. I assume you've already talked with the county Ag folks, so you have their perspective. Maybe you can find a guild near you and take fleece to their meeting and get opinions.

Meg


----------



## therealshari (Jul 10, 2007)

Ok ladies, I've not gone away... just been doing more research. 

Here's where I am right now.

I thought long and hard about sending fleece to Texas A&M to be tested. I live in Utah, a sheep state, so have finally made contact with my local County Extension Agent.

He's a nice guy who confirmed my suspicions... I have the ONLY flock of black Merino Sheep in Southern Utah. He's given me the phone number for the Utah State Extension Sheep Specialist, and I have left a message for him.

My county guy indicated that this specialist should be able to grade my fleece at no charge... How sweet! Now to wait for his phone call...

In the mean time, we'll be weaning our lambs this weekend (at least the little boys, who are going down the road 1/2 mile). 

Oh, and the county guy even invited us to participate in the Cedar City Heritage Festival in October. That's where they run a band of sheep down Main Street and have a huge display in the Pioneer Park. He'd like us to bring in a couple of our Merino's, since they're so rare here.

Now, if only we knew what we were doing...


----------



## Liese (Dec 12, 2005)

LOL ...learn by doing! That's wonderful about your invitation to the Festival.


----------



## therealshari (Jul 10, 2007)

Well, here's the rest of the story.

After still more research, we've determined that what was represented as Merino is Suffolk. We have a flock of the type of sheep used on the ranges as "black marker sheep".

That being the case, we're no longer attempting to sell fleece for the hand spinning market. 

Also, our ram earned the "three strikes and your outta here" award after last winter. He butted me repeatedly one day, and I couldn't hit him hard enough to take control. Then he butted Cindy. The day we sheared, he butted the shearer in the trailer. Those antics earned him two strikes.

His third strike was that his wool isn't any better (it looks shorter even) than the ewes. So, he went to auction.

It looks like our future will be in the meat market, with fleece sold for "alternative uses" such as nesting material for chickens, permanent mulch (garden paths), etc.

Thanks for all your help, and do swing by my blog just to see what we're up to here on the desert. 

Shari's Gone Country!
Four Country Gals


----------



## Liese (Dec 12, 2005)

Hey Shari, Suffolk fiber is not bad or inferior, granted each individual has to be assessed but like Dorset, it can be very nice for sock yarns - if you had a mill card & spin you could do wonderful handpainted/dyed skeins. I machine wash my Dorset sock in cold water and hang to dry - a great selling point. You may not have people banging down your doors like Merino might have done but it doesn't have to be garden mulch either! You might look at the costs and viability of having it carded into mattress sized batts for mattress toppers, quilts or duvets too.


----------



## weever (Oct 1, 2006)

And I machine wash my suffolk socks in warm water, and have been known to accidentally use hot occasionally. Sometimes they line dry, sometimes they go in the dryer. Your mileage may vary. But it's hard to beat suffolk for socks and bedding...

(It must be quite a shock to have thought you had merino, however, and found out the truth...)


----------

