# 3 yr old doe- swollen chin/jaw- not wormy-pic links



## lunagardens (Jul 17, 2005)

I bought her about a month ago. The woman said she had tripletts but only a doe survived and nursed from her. When i had asked how long ago she gave birth, she said about 2 months before i bought her. i asked the usual questions about vacs and deworming and the reply i recieved is 
"She got CDT and BoSe in January, Ivermectin wormer in February. She got another BoSe and Ivermectin on June 30. I trimmed her hooves on the 7th of this month, and she has been dusted for mites. "
I thought she was pretty thin and di not think to check her eyelids for anemia when i drove out to look at her. She was pretty thin compared to the other doe who gave birth around the same time, but I thought having a triplett pregnancy most likely made her that way. (2 died at birth). She is in the meat goat (boer) business, so I assumed (one place i went wrong) that she would not ethicly sell me a sick goat knowing i wanted her for milking as the family milking goat. I have had problems starting the next morning of her previous nights arrival. Diarrhea, runny nose, dry skin, not very energetic and her under jaw/chin keeps swelling. It will not be bad at all in the morning- barely there but some loose skin. But as the day goes on it looks like this by dinner time and sometimes bigger:









A friend from out of town, did a fecal and said she does not appear to have a worm problem- any more then what is considered normal.
. I wormed her with safeguard 2x in a 2 week period at the dose i saw reccomened on fiasco's site. note she has already been wormed with ivermectin twice from her previous owner. I have given her a trial of antibiotic for the kinda green snotty nose and she has received Red Cell "iron rich homogenized selenium biotin" The vitamin iron mineral supplement. 2 tsp 2 x a day for over a week.
This is a body shot from today-and she has put on some weight since her arrival:








She has free choice hay, free choice loose minerals(purina) & baking soda, plus I have been giving her 1/2 cup of grain in the hopes to put some weight on. i stopped milking her within 2 weeks of her arrival since she did not seem right- I "weaned" her so as not to cause her discomfort. She was giving maybe 1 cup of milk at each milking.
What more can i do? I am broke from buying all this stuff along with the fact we just bought a big amount of hay which drained the goat budget for at least a month.I so badly want to tell that woman come get her and return my money. I feel she unethically sold me this goat- knowing something was wrong. There is no way in just 12 hours she became white lidded added to everything else. I am very angry over all of this. 
Hopefully i can get this one back to good health and sell her. I will keep our other one since she has become a family pet over the last year, but thats it! no more goats for at least a few years.
Anyone know what is wrong with her? what more can i do?


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## BlueHeronFarm (Feb 9, 2007)

That sure looks like bottle jaw to me. And did you say her lids were white? - those are both sure signs of blood sucking worms.I wonder what your friend considers "normal "when she does a fecal. 

My guess is it is a worm problem and the two wormers you have tried are not effective in your area anymore. Cydectin and Levamisole are still working in most areas. If you can afford yet one more bottle of wormer, I'd try Cydectin.


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## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

Yeah, I'd say it looks like classic bottlejaw. There may be a resistance problem to the avermectin class of wormers, and Safeguard is pretty much ineffective altogether in my opinion. I'd get a fecal done by a vet, if you don't know how.

UNDER EDIT: Cydectin workes by the same method as ivermectin, so may be ineffective if resistance is a problem. Also, you must worm ORALLY, with either the injectable or the pour-on, and you must USE ENOUGH. When in doubt, give MORE, not less. Underdosage is the biggest single problem, and the safety margin for higher doses is wide.

I would not dilly-dally on this, she may die soon if she still has worms and her lids are white. 

If the vet fecal (or one done by a knowledgeable person) comes back essentially clean, you can be assured you have solved the worm problem, and begin treating the symptoms. I'd give a shot of LA200 or other broad-spectrum SQ. Keep trying to have a high plain of nutrition, but don't overdo the grain. High quality hay as the base feed. Keep fresh, clean water around at all times.

She really looks like just a run-dwon goat that has not been taken care of, and so you will have a cascade of various ills to treat now. The green is maybe pneumonia, for example. It can take some time for them to come out of all that trauma.

No matter what, mark this down as an experience that will strengthen what you know when looking at a goat, so you can tell and not be sold by marketing but rather by what you see. It is your responsibility to be very choosy when buying goats. Do not trust the seller, ever, if what you hear is different from what you see.


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

Bottle jaw. No question there.

Send me your snail mail address (I'm may have it somewhere but that takes time) and her weight. I'll send you a couple doses of Cydectin from a brand new bottle we have here. Or if you can afford the trip down, I could get some doses of more than just the Cydectin.
Keep up with the Red Cell, though I think she could use more. I'd have to look up the ...drawing a blank on the word...I am sick right now...uh...con....uh. Anyways changing tsps to ccs.
The swelling is from the anemia, if I recall correctly...Vicki please correct me if I am not recalling correctly.
I dealt with bottle jaw in the herd I purchased last year all through the summer. I don't know if you saw them in that state or not. I pulled all but one out of it and they are fleshy again. It took a lot of work.

If you have B-Complex, 6ccs of that will help. Vitamin A & D. You need to replenish her vitamins and her iron.

The problem is that moves cause immense stress. Stress brings out blood sucking worms that weren't active before. Which is why worming the day a doe kids is important. 

Your doe could easily go down in the near future and that can lead to pnuemonia...which is how I lost the only one of 7 goats that went through bouts of bottle jaw (some twice before I called Vicki and came up with a solid treatment regime).

You can call me at the home phone number if you still have that around.


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## lunagardens (Jul 17, 2005)

Thank you to everyone! I am so drained about this. I guess it is more of an "associative person" then a friend, but they said she did not have worm over load in the sample and it appeared as a normal amount. I dropped it off with her while i was out that way buying hay. So I never saw it. She just said that when i called her.
Roseanna, I will email you my snail mail address- I greatly appreciate your generous offer. I just cant stretch anymore of it until next month. We are selling our home and purchasing vacant land to build on so a tight budget has already been stretched with her.
I was giving her the B complex initially for the first week. I forgot to mention that- sorry, i was being rushed my arguing children in the background... I will continue her on the 6 cc's of B complex- but for how long do i continue it? I will up her red cell and i think i have vitamin A & D in the basement from last winter. I keep my refrigerated vaccines in "his fridge" so I keep a shelf for all "goat supplies" nearby it.
If i do not call you (i.e cant find the number), i will shoot you a PM doustthouhavemilk. Again, My deepest gratitude for your offer.
Thanks to everyone for the quick reply's too. Knowing what it is for certain has eased a few monkey's off my back.
Best to all,
~T


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Yes the anemia causes the swelling, its the liver shutting down. This is an emergency. Worrying about anything else, like her horrid rear legs and feet trimming and her need for calories, needs to wait until you pull her through this. It will take her months before you can saftely breed her, it takes longer to get them back from this than it took to neglect her into this shape.

I would add alfalfa pellets to her diet and just slowly increase her grain, slowly...she shouldn't have to fight for anything right now, not even cool water.

You have such a wealth of knowledge around you for help with the offer of help from a commercial herd, take the help. vicki


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## lunagardens (Jul 17, 2005)

The body picture is not a very good one. I could not keep her still long enough for a good shot. She kept trying to nuzzle me for more petting. Her legs are not that crooked. I put it in to show the main body.
She does not have a favorable form in the legs, but future plans should help in her offspring, if we decide to keep her. I am almost scared to have her ever bred in the fear giving birth or being pregnant may impact her health due to all she has been through. I have alfalfa pellets and put them in for her, but after a few broken up cubes, she goes back to the hay. I think the swelling may make it easier to eat the hay then the alfalfa pellets.In the morning the swelling is much less and have noticed she will eat more alfalfa cubes at that time. I continue to put them out for her anyway. 
The beginning plans were to breed her this fall, but with all the problems I did not want her to relapse so that was decided against until late in the season or just completely wait till next year. My Saanen mix has been on a diet since I last posted about her and am hoping it will help in getting her to cycle normal for breeding season.I believe she may have been to over weight last year to cycle normal and succeed in breeding. She is my plan for a Spring milker.
I have 2 hay bins I put their hay in so there is no fighting over food. They are a good distance away so no fighting would erupt. On nice sunny days, I put their bins in the pen yard at different corners, plus 2 separate water buckets next to their hay- which get changed out 2x a day. I try to make everything as comfortable as possible for her and compared to the last owners description of her, she quickly changed after a few days here. I hope thats a sign she does feel more comfortable here and loved. My children are always bringing her on walks to the grazing area in the far back of our property. She is very docile and just a light touch on her collar is all that is needed to guide her. Hates the Red cell, but i feel it has had a great impact on her health. She seems more bright eyed then before. i am rambling waiting for the coffee to brew so i will sign off with that.
Thank you Vicki for your response. It is always appreciated.
~T


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

lunagardens said:


> T I have alfalfa pellets and put them in for her, but after a few broken up cubes, she goes back to the hay.
> ~T



it sounds like you are feeding cubes, not pellets? my does don't eat the cubes but only the pellets. the pellets are so small that there is absolutely no need to break them.


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## Emilea (May 16, 2007)

I have a doe that her face looks EXACTLY like this... I took her to a retired goat vet and he said give a 10 run of penicillen since i had just wormed her... and she is on her 3rd day today and the swelling is gone and she is eating everything she can get to! the LA200 was working but the swelling kept comming back so thats when i took her to the vet...


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## lunagardens (Jul 17, 2005)

yes they are the cubes. I have asked around for "pellets" and they just refer me to the cubes. i assume that would be because they do not have them in pellets. i thought it was the same thing just is different shape/size. i break up the cubes before they go in the bin, so they are not realy cubed anymore when they get them. It takes time but thats another thing the kids do not mind helping with.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

i don't know where you are but in ohio is a company that makes the alfa pellets called alfa green supreme, or something like that. your feed dealer should be able to get them for you.


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## Milk n' Honey (Aug 14, 2005)

lunagardens - You can get alfalfa pellets at pretty much any grain elevator. They are all used to using them in custom mix feeds so call a grain elevator and be specific and tell them that you are feeding goats, not horses and cubes won't work. They can order them for you, even if they don't have them in stock. Maybe you should call a different place or something. They should be readily available just about anywhere. Keep looking. I had a baby goat get bottle jaw...he was 3-4 months old when he died. I'll tell you, it was worms. Lice can cause this too. Believe me, lice can create a severely anemic goat. After losing a few goats to worm overloads, we found out that the ivermectin was not killing the worms. We had whipworms and lungworms in our goats. We had to use Panacur for any goats that seemed "off." We started saving goats after we found out what to do. Our vet wouldn't do a test for lungworm and referred us to Purdue. It is a special test that has to sit in a petry dish for a few days. We had a necropsy done on a goat though and that told us about the lungworms. This also causes parasitic pneumonia and you would probably see yucky stuff coming out of the nose. It sounds like she is really sick. She looks really thin, even for a dairy goat. I don't like to see ribs. Her eyes are not bright and alert and you are standing near her. That is always a sign of a sick goat (for future shopping reference). It does sound as if she might be stressed from the move also. The diarrhea and runny nose, I've both seen from moving a goat. Change in feed from her place to yours could explain the runny poop. The dry skin makes me think she's been having issues with lice. You need to immediately get a pour-on delouser....the cattle kind is fine. Mine is called Cylence but there are others out there that you can find off the shelf. I don't use the same amount as for a 1000 cow so instead of 4 cc, I use 3 cc. If she were my goat, I'd give her a bath and brush her with a horse type brush. This removed a lot of debris and slows the lice down. She won't like it probably but it helps a bunch. Then after she is dry, I'd put on some delouser. Just use a little syringe without the needle and spot it on, down the neck and down the spine, right on the skin. Repeat in three weeks to break the cycle. You have to treat the whole herd at once though or you'll get some with heavy loads of lice. The next thing, purchase some horse Panacur and give it to her for 3 days in a row, just once a day. You'll need to double the horse dose for a goat. So, if she weighs 150lbs, measure it at 300 lbs on the tube dial. Take her temperature. If she has a fever...probably would be over 104 degrees during these 100 degree days, start her on antibiotics and run them for the full course. Just so you know, my vet told me that pneumonia can often times call for more powerful anitibiotics which my vet would sell me by the dose. She'll need Red Cell twice a day. Once isn't enough and you can't just give her more at once because the body can only absorb so much at a time. In fact, you could even give it 3 times a day, if you have the time. She'll need B Vitamin shots and you might even ask the vet about iron shots. I know they have them and you might need them in order to save her. I'm sorry this sounds like a lot todo but a goat this sick will need a lot of steadfast attention or you will most certainly lose her. I don't think having babies causes anemia unless she had complication that made her lose a lot of blood and then I doubt she'd have lived through it. I'm so sorry you just bought this doe and she is so sick. I've learned that many, many goat people lie. They just want your money. That is the sad truth. We've been lied to by three different breeders and the truth is, you have to rely on your own eyes and look over the animals really good and the farm too. Do you see runny CL spots on goats running around? I've driven up to farms just to admire their goats and seen that. Well, this is what I'd do. I hope I'm not leaving anything out. Please keep us updated on her progress. Again, so sorry you are going through this. It is disheartening. 

Emilea - I'm confused about why any kind of antibiotics would help a goat with anemia?? You doe would have had to have some sort of infection that was causing the swelling. Maybe she had an infection that caused the anemia which caused the swelling. I do know that a goat's immune system's response to an infection will cause the iron levels to drop. However, I would think in order for it to cause bottle jaw, it would have to be sick for a really long time or have worms along with infection. It just doesn't make sense to treat bottle jaw with antibiotics unless there was another unknown cause for infection.


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## Emilea (May 16, 2007)

I never said she had bottle jaw... she was just really swollen up and there was no physical reason for it that i could see... but I gave her LA200 and it only worked for the day i gave it to her and then it came back every night... so that is when i took her to the vet and he said that the la200 was working just not well enough so i gave her pen. and it is working now swelling is gone and she is back to normal... but she looked EXACTLY like the goat in the picture


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## chris30523 (Jun 11, 2005)

I had a goat with the same thing. Mine was in good condition (not skinny).I wormed with Ivomec and was still having a worm problem so then I used the cydectin. I did this with about 10 goats she didn't show with the bottle jaw till after I wormed her. When she got the bottle jaw I re-checked the eyelids and they were white.Everyone else was fine.I started with the red cell twice a day and Bvitamins I did this for about 2 weeks.She wouldn't get any better she would eat and lay with her kids.The things I wish I had done were get a fecal done to see what kind of worms or cocci I was dealing with,separate her from the herd sooner and pull the kids sooner.


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## Milk n' Honey (Aug 14, 2005)

Emilea - I'm sorry...not trying to put you on the defensive or say what you did didn't help your goat. I was sort of trying to get a lot of info out quickly cuz I had to go to work. I was in a hurry and sometimes I forget that people don't read these posts the same way I intend for them to sound....LOL. My DH says that I have horrible communication skills. Hmmmm...I don't see it but it must be true. Anyway, I just don't get why the vet prescribed antibiotics. I wish I knew more. I know you didn't say bottlejaw. That is just what people usually call it, if it looked like the goat in the picture. I'd just like a little more info on "why" it helped your doe. It just doesn't make sense to me. You know what they say about overuse of antibiotics and vets are always pushing them cuz they don't know what else to do most of the time. I'm just a bit skeptical that's all. It is sort of like when my son gets ear infections and they go away in 3 days with or without the antibiotics that the Dr. pushes. LOL....if I gave the antibiotics, I'll say, "Wow, that medicine really helped him." If I don't give it, it goes away just as fast though. I learned to wait to take him to the Dr. b/c I just hate giving antibiotics unnecessarily. Know what I mean? I was just trying to make sense of how it might have worked. No offense to you at all. I am so glad your doe is back to normal!!


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## Sher (May 10, 2002)

Emilea said:


> I have a doe that her face looks EXACTLY like this... I took her to a retired goat vet and he said give a 10 run of penicillen since i had just wormed her... and she is on her 3rd day today and the swelling is gone and she is eating everything she can get to! the LA200 was working but the swelling kept comming back so thats when i took her to the vet...




LOL..ya gotta love some of these old vets..we use one here..can't beat him. Don't feel bad Emilea..I had a nubian look the same way. I wormed her..then bingo bango..sooo..I too shot her up with a long lasting pen. It was gone by morning. And didn't return.

I am wondering if the dead worms might shluff (is that a word :shrug: ) off a toxin..with the resulting liver damage? Don't know..just know what you said works! :dance: :dance:


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Once the underlying issue is resolved (it does sound like worms) just wanted to add, beet pulp is very good to add weight. You will be suprised how well it can really work. I would give probiotics as well, you need to heal and strengthen the digestive system. Lots of fiber (hay, beet pulp, forage, etc)


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## Emilea (May 16, 2007)

I'm not sure he said it was an infection that he had seen alot of, but it goes to the face and builds thats why can swell up and then go away. I wasn't getting defensive,I was just trying to explain better, I don't always type how i think either...


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