# Hobbling Goats



## rowan57 (Sep 30, 2009)

I see a lot of threads on here about goat fencing, how strong it needs to be, how you cant have goats in a small space etc. A couple of thoughts:

Across Africa, goats are hobbled where they graze / are fed, and not fenced in (Generally taken in somewhere at night, but thats not always the case). If you have an existing fence which stops people etc. but is not strong enough for goats, is this not an option?

Goats are also raised in cages (Cut & Feed). On a small scale, while this is not ideal, it certainly works, and allows you to keep goats in a very small space indeed. Obviously costs would tend to be higher as it is likely that in the west you would have to pay for food, but if you really want the milk & meat the costs probably balance out?

Thoughts?

Rowan


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## rio002 (Jul 30, 2002)

I think the difference you'll find is that in places like Africa, goats serve only the purpose of food or milk--not as pets also. I think you'll find alot of responses come in on whether hobbling for extended periods is humane, I don't feel that it is. I understand hobbling for short time periods for grooming or medical treatment though I've never needed to hobble my goats as they have been raised as pets and for the most part lol will tolerate what needs to be done. This means that it's alot more work for me and on occasion a pulled muscle to myself or a crack in the jaw for losing concentration for a sec. while hoof trimming but hobbling in my opinion would stress them far more. Just because something "works" doesn't mean it's the best way to handle an animal or in their best interest. As for caging goats, same issues, yes it contains them, yes your feed cost would be higher, but less cost since there would be no outlay for fencing. However, I feel it is unacceptable on many levels. Goats should have proper housing a barn or lean-to, the ability to move freely and graze/browse as goats are inclined to do so and attention as they are very social creatures. Much akin to the idea of buying a St. Bernard and raising it in a cage all it's life, sure you could feed and water it, clean up after it but it's quality of life would be disgraceful. I suppose alot of it comes down cultural differences, respect for living things and assuring their quality of life when they provide for us, even if they are raised to provide food.


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## jil101ca (Jul 2, 2007)

I can't see a problem with using hobbles, they are meant to allow an animal to be able to graze freely but not be able to run or jump. They can still walk. The first time would be horrible for the gaot until they realized how the hobbles worked.

Raising a goat in a cage would be inhumane IMO. No movement or freedom. I would not support "cut & feed" raising of goats.


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## rowan57 (Sep 30, 2009)

rio002 said:


> I think the difference you'll find is that in places like Africa, goats serve only the purpose of food or milk--not as pets also. I think you'll find alot of responses come in on whether hobbling for extended periods is humane, I don't feel that it is. I understand hobbling for short time periods for grooming or medical treatment though I've never needed to hobble my goats as they have been raised as pets and for the most part lol will tolerate what needs to be done. This means that it's alot more work for me and on occasion a pulled muscle to myself or a crack in the jaw for losing concentration for a sec. while hoof trimming but hobbling in my opinion would stress them far more. Just because something "works" doesn't mean it's the best way to handle an animal or in their best interest. As for caging goats, same issues, yes it contains them, yes your feed cost would be higher, but less cost since there would be no outlay for fencing. However, I feel it is unacceptable on many levels. Goats should have proper housing a barn or lean-to, the ability to move freely and graze/browse as goats are inclined to do so and attention as they are very social creatures. Much akin to the idea of buying a St. Bernard and raising it in a cage all it's life, sure you could feed and water it, clean up after it but it's quality of life would be disgraceful. I suppose alot of it comes down cultural differences, respect for living things and assuring their quality of life when they provide for us, even if they are raised to provide food.


I think you've given almost the response I was expecting. I don't necessarily argue with your beliefs, I suspect the majority of Goat owners in the west believe the same thing you do.

On hobbling, what is your basis for believing that it causes an animal stress? On the farm I manage, they have goats which will have been hobbled for their entire lives, and bar the odd tangle, they seem extremely content, they are fed well, cared for and socialised well. Most goats are hobbled as youngsters, as soon as they are born, and don't know any other way.

On the cage thing. Let me make it clear I'm not talking about a cage where a goat physically can't move, more a cage the size a dog kennel 'should' be, i.e. twice the size of the animal so it can stretch, turn, move etc. I don't really see how it is any different to keeping Rabbits in individual cages?

More thoughts welcome. I think the interesting thing is, the concept in the west of a food producing animal, be that a goat, a chicken, a rabbit etc. being a pet, as well as a food-venture. That simply is not the case in the developing world. Think about this: If you earned about $70 a month, to feed your family (lets say Husband, Wife, 4 Kids, maybe Grandparents as well), and you have an area of ground 150 sq ft to supplement that income. Would raising a goat in a cage, or in hobbles, not appeal to you? 

By the way, I believe that often the 2 techniques of keeping Goats mentioned, are often done badly so the welfare of the animal suffers, note that I do not support that, but where done properly, the welfare of the animal can be maintained for sure. 

Just my thoughts.
Cheers
Rowan


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## rowan57 (Sep 30, 2009)

jil101ca said:


> I can't see a problem with using hobbles, they are meant to allow an animal to be able to graze freely but not be able to run or jump. They can still walk. The first time would be horrible for the gaot until they realized how the hobbles worked.
> 
> Raising a goat in a cage would be inhumane IMO. No movement or freedom. I would not support "cut & feed" raising of goats.


Thanks for your thoughts Jill. Cut & Feed is a big part of subsistence agriculture across the developing world. On a small scale, a lot of cattle are also raised on a cut and feed system (Which actually I am not keen on at all, but they are often in better condition than those that are 'grazed').

Cheers
Rowan


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I don't even leave collars on my goats for extended periods of time... Hobbles are too dangerous to leave on them. Goats are browsers and to have an animal that walks through brush all day to find food, having any sort of collar or contraption on them is extremely, extremely dangerous. 

Keep on mind in africa, there are few fences and people go out with their herds to watch them ALL DAY. People here are NOT able to do that. I've never heard of people in africa hobbling their goats - just taking them out to pasture. But, if they did hobble them, the flock watchers would be able to help them when they were stuck.

As for cages, I can't imagine any goat besides like newborns happy in a cage. I've kept newborn bottle babies in cages before when there was just one or two (at the beginning of the kidding season when it was cold and I didn't want the kids to chill) but not an adult goat, besides transportation. 

If you really want the meat and don't have room for it, purchase it from someone who does.


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## rio002 (Jul 30, 2002)

Hi Rowan! The reason I stated that I believe hobbling would cause a goat stress is because I was thinking of my own who are two at age 5 and one at age 6 and have never been hobbled--attempting that now would cause them stress. I imagine if started them young with proper supervision, they would become accustomed to it, and do well. Much like the elephant on a string concept--when their babies you put them on a chain/rope that they can't break and as they age they accept that they cannot get loose and thus are able to be kept on smaller thinner ropes because they have learned that no matter what they are tied by they cannot break it. 
As for cages, I see you were meaning something more along the lines of a dog kennel, which temporarily I would find ok, however, I refuse to kennel any animal indefinitely. I have one kennel left on the property and I only left it for the option if we have alot of people coming out and I need the dogs put up for the day, it did double for goats for a winter after the barn burned down. Otherwise, they aren't considered proper 24 hour a day housing in my opinion. Circumstances cause people to do things in ways they wouldn't if they had a better option. In the circumstances you used as an example, absolutely I would hobble the goats starting at a young age and if it was for the survival of my family absolutely I would kennel them but I would try to provide the most humane and attentive care for them I could. There is a fine line between proper usage of these techniques and simple abuse. 
I think the main difference of ideas, really just comes down to culture and location. Obviously here in the west we are spoiled with options in comparison to Africa and other developing countries, we are allowed to sit on our high horses and say "how dare you do that" or "how could you possibly" when in reality we would do the same things if put into those same circumstances. There is also the romanticized version of the American farm, seeing your creatures running loose in their pasture, big full barn, collecting eggs from your coop etc. that gets in the way of understanding the people who Have to farm or starve. I think we are closer to being on the same page now lol. I have enjoyed this conversation  Hey don't you have a blog somewhere about your moving to Kenya? Thinking I wandered through it at some point............:cowboy:


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## FarmerChick (Dec 28, 2009)

hobbling to me is fine IF and only if a person is with the herd.
24/7 guard duty. In Africa etc. they herd all day long....they are shepards who tend their flock. Not like our system at all usually. Goats are prey animals. Hobbling and leaving them vulnerable is pure inhumane, but if monitored, sure fine to hobble and graze.
But most times they are not even hobbled, the herd is watched and maintained by a few shepards as it should be.

Small pens. Sure....as long as they get movement etc. If their life span is not full term. To me anything kept in a smaller type pen "forever" is not good. Especially a grazing/browsing/pasture animal. But if time is limited due to slaughter etc. then sure as long as it is reasonably sized to fil that animal.

Me personally---big fan of pasture/free grazing and basically all animals being treated as they should due to their requirements.

But in this world, agri corps must exist to supply fast and cheap meats to the mass of the population that does not feed itself. So I see the need for total business and profit in this situation. Just as long as times might improve some of the inhumane confinement, chemical additives, etc. etc.--that would be a wonderful step in a great direction.


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## Beulah Gardens (Feb 26, 2008)

I think one of the biggest things we miss about fencing is that it is not only designed to keep your animals in but also to keep other animals out. A goat is low on the food chain and a hobbled goat is easy prey. For their own safety I would not leave them hobbled and alone.


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## jil101ca (Jul 2, 2007)

> On a small scale, a lot of cattle are also raised on a cut and feed system (Which actually I am not keen on at all, but they are often in better condition than those that are 'grazed').


That is why I do not support the veal farmer by buying it, I do not agree with the way veal is raised. I have no problem with eating young animals 

If space was an issue and it was the young goats i was going to eat/sell for meat then i would consider cages/kennels for them but the cages would have to have ample room for the goat. 

When I think about it I am really doing just the very thing. My goats are in the barn for the winter. Due to how my barn was built and where the doors are versus the fields there is no way for them to go out other than when supervised and roaming free. Doesn't happen alot as it is dark when i leave and get home from work. For now they are 2 goats per 10' x 10' stall which is more than enough room. I have had 4 goats per stall and they were fine with that as well. I read somewhere that you could keep up to 10 kids in a stall that size if you had to.


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## luvzmybabz (Sep 8, 2008)

When my grandparents had an Ostrich ranch my uncle visited Africa often, he would tell us about the animals there and how they were raised. While I do not agree with some of them we need to realize that their lives are completely different then ours and they probably do what they have to do to survive and feed their children. If it was a choice between not being able to feed my children and keeping my goats either hobbled or in a pen/cage that many may not consider large enough, guess where my goats would be!


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

> hobbled goat is easy prey


But in third world countries predators are one reason they DO hobble.
So for example -the stock cannot go down to the creek and become alligator snacks. It's easier to keep an eye on them than if they are wandering after food that might not even be there to find. 

It's really unfair to judge other situations from our lucky perspective of well fed animals in big spaces and lots of choice livestock setups. Things are not like here in most of the rest of the world. And livestock is really just a food source in most places. They cannot afford to be mushy about it. It's about survival. We are so far past that here that we can keep even the least likely to survive and spend hundreds at the vet on a 3 legged wether for emotional reasons. 



> , respect for living things


WOW!
That is such an elitist statement. How can you judge people who are trying to get enough to eat? I find it hard to believe that anyone can worry about a hobble if you have visited an American factory farms or slaughterhouse. Our grocery stores are filled with testaments to animal cruelty.

Turkish goat herders hobble the kids so they don't waste energy trying to follow the dams all day and the dams return to feed them since they eventually give up trying to follow and stay in one general area while the does must range quite a long way to get enough to eat. 

While I am thankful for my lucky spot in the scheme of things I certainly cannot begrudge others the things they need to do to make their lives work in different circumstances. Thanks for this interesting topic and the description of your livestock set up Rowan. 

B~


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

That was my first thought, I don't only fence my goats in, I am fencing my neighbors animals and dogs out. See in the United States pets are allowed rights like humans in some peoples minds, even livestock, which you can see reading on forums like this, so a goat who can't run away while our livestock dogs protect them, would be dead, not lunch because they aren't coming here to eat the goats, but just for sport. In my state and alot of the south, men have dogs like rotties and pit bulls, alot like having to have a big gun (compensation for shortages in other areas  like control  which can devestate a herd of goats in a few minutes.

There is alot of animal abuse in the United States also because most animals are not used for what they are intended, there are few folks utilizing their goats milk even for their family, nor do they eat goat even though they raise them, some won't even sell bucklings to folks who don't promise not to eat them. Contracts for sale can even include sentences that they get first choice if you decide to sell their animal and they can not go for meat. So the animals become a drain on (usually the husbands) wallet, get very poor care and die of parasites and neglect. Animals that have no value, which in the United States most things only have monetary value, so if the goat isn't bringing in money, it's disposable.

The ideal of a goat living in a large acreage, well fenced and protected from preditors with livestock guardian dogs etc...having an open and airy barn to live in when there is poor weather, is an ideal that in reality doesn't happen alot. Most of the south a goat would live a much happier and healthier life if she was confined to a small clean barn (I know our dog kennels are 16x16) and brought all their grain, hay, minerals and water....they would have zero parasite problems, zero predator problems, being let out for exercise under supervision and not getting fat from too much grain feeding, sounds like a really good life. Up north, goats are confined for months in barns during the winter, so I don't see how this is any different.


I can't do hobbles because we have underbrush out here, but I did have a LaMancha buck who wore a collar, had a piece of rope about 2 feet long so he could not lift his head to jump, which was swivel snapped to a 30 pound weight, it was the only way I could keep him from jumping any fence I had, he had to drag that weight with him everwhere.

So you gotta do what you gotta do, but in all cases it is about care, be it in a big huge dairy barn or a small kennel, still has to be cleaned, the goats still have to be milked, fed, feet trimmed, I don't think the goat cares at all, as long as it needs are met. Vicki


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## ozark mike (Apr 20, 2008)

one of my boys is a deputy sheriff in Minnesota... he carries a taser, before he was permitted to carry and use it he had to be shot with it to let him experience the extreme pain they can cause...anyone that hobbles an animal should have to be hobbled for an eight hour period to let them know what the animal is going through...there is just no excuse for using hobbles on any animal


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## chewie (Jun 9, 2008)

"no excuse for using hobbles on any animal"

ever been kicked by a dairy cow? hobbles *and* the kicker bar, in a second! have a horse strike you with front feet? oh yeah, hobbled right now!

we've hobbled horses for years--once they learn how to work them, they like them--hobbles meant freedom (somewhat) to go eat grass. they didnt' care one lick if it was slow going, with their mouths full. 

i've had much worse--day jobs i hated ('hobbled" to my machine all day), a cast on my leg, crutches. i love my animals, treat them better than many children get, but they are not humans. they are here to do a job.


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## rio002 (Jul 30, 2002)

Briza-- keep in mind if you reread Rowans original post, when I made the statement "respect for living things' I was not making an "elitist" remark. I simply was unsure if this person was trying to raise some feathers around here for asking questions of that type or if they really wanted to have a discussion as to different techniques. Luckily it was the latter of the two. At the time I was unaware that Rowan was/is having firsthand experience in Kenya, therefore it was unclear that he was speaking specifically of people who are completely dependent on their livestock to survive. For all I knew at that time it was just an example by someone who wants the "ok" to possibly abuse the purpose of those techniques. Remember by the time you replied you had by then read All the statements and had full understanding of what we were discussing.


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## rowan57 (Sep 30, 2009)

rio002 said:


> Hi Rowan! The reason I stated that I believe hobbling would cause a goat stress is because I was thinking of my own who are two at age 5 and one at age 6 and have never been hobbled--attempting that now would cause them stress. I imagine if started them young with proper supervision, they would become accustomed to it, and do well. Much like the elephant on a string concept--when their babies you put them on a chain/rope that they can't break and as they age they accept that they cannot get loose and thus are able to be kept on smaller thinner ropes because they have learned that no matter what they are tied by they cannot break it.
> As for cages, I see you were meaning something more along the lines of a dog kennel, which temporarily I would find ok, however, I refuse to kennel any animal indefinitely. I have one kennel left on the property and I only left it for the option if we have alot of people coming out and I need the dogs put up for the day, it did double for goats for a winter after the barn burned down. Otherwise, they aren't considered proper 24 hour a day housing in my opinion. Circumstances cause people to do things in ways they wouldn't if they had a better option. In the circumstances you used as an example, absolutely I would hobble the goats starting at a young age and if it was for the survival of my family absolutely I would kennel them but I would try to provide the most humane and attentive care for them I could. There is a fine line between proper usage of these techniques and simple abuse.
> I think the main difference of ideas, really just comes down to culture and location. Obviously here in the west we are spoiled with options in comparison to Africa and other developing countries, we are allowed to sit on our high horses and say "how dare you do that" or "how could you possibly" when in reality we would do the same things if put into those same circumstances. There is also the romanticized version of the American farm, seeing your creatures running loose in their pasture, big full barn, collecting eggs from your coop etc. that gets in the way of understanding the people who Have to farm or starve. I think we are closer to being on the same page now lol. I have enjoyed this conversation  Hey don't you have a blog somewhere about your moving to Kenya? Thinking I wandered through it at some point............:cowboy:


Thanks for continuing with the discussion, as you say in a later post thats what I really wanted. Yes I do have a blog, www.mybigkenyanadventure.wordpress.com, I have been pretty rubbish about updating it but will certainly try harder after xmas. 

The elephant on a string concept is interesting, not something I have heard of before but definitely sounds logical and feasible. When I talk about hobbling goats, there are a couple of different techniques I am specifically talking about: Standard hobbling, as used for horses etc when required. The second type is tieing by an ankle to a long piece of rope (about 10ft normally), which is then tied to a stake.

I think your term 'spoiled with options' is a great way of describing it. I have started a couple of threads like this, one specifically on rabbits which maybe didnt go down so well as this one, specifically to get the views of those breeding animals in the west - I had no experience of animals in the UK, I only started to learn when I moved to Kenya, so all my experience is based on a developing countries model.

Thanks
Rowan


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## FarmerChick (Dec 28, 2009)

I said
hobbled goat is easy prey

and it is

but I am talking about our lives here. Not in africa with a crocodile laden watering hole

you leave a hobbled goat in the yard and the neighbors dog or coyote is going to eat well. if unattended, it is super easy prey


I absolutely understand your view. BUT we gotta be talking about the same location each time...LOL....I am saying hobbled goat in the yard unattended is super easy prey. Hobbled goat in africa under supervision is a whole 'nother issue.


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## rowan57 (Sep 30, 2009)

FarmerChick said:


> hobbling to me is fine IF and only if a person is with the herd.
> 24/7 guard duty. In Africa etc. they herd all day long....they are shepards who tend their flock. Not like our system at all usually. Goats are prey animals. Hobbling and leaving them vulnerable is pure inhumane, but if monitored, sure fine to hobble and graze.
> But most times they are not even hobbled, the herd is watched and maintained by a few shepards as it should be.
> 
> ...


Im with you on the chemical additives thing, I'm not a huge fan of having meat where it has been treated with chemicals, but very often there is little option it seems. 

On your point about herding. I think that herding is actually crueler to animals that cut & feed. If you see the animals which are herded in africa, they are often nothing but skin and bones (goats hold weight a bit better than cows mind). Whereas in a cut and feed program, they are getting all the food & water they need, probably at least some other basic care requirements etc. 

But you are right, in circumstances where hobbling is required (for the most part) there will be someone to guard the flock 24/7. Where there isn't, it is because predators are not such an issue, and people are not really an issue (if someone steals an animal, the chances are they will be killed).

Thanks
Rowan


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## rowan57 (Sep 30, 2009)

Ok so im not going to reply to everyone that has kindly responded but I will do a couple more responses.


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## FarmerChick (Dec 28, 2009)

See you can't make that assumption

of course animals being herded in Africa are skin and bones mostly---there ain't no great grazing grounds now is there?

you can't compare apples to oranges.

In Ireland they herd sheep. They are healthy fat perfect eat good etc. the shepards herd on green grass..........the african pastures are not even close to that

so it is just so wide spread of a situation on climate etc.

where would an african get into a cut and feed program. they can't ship in anything for humans let alone feed for a goat or cow..LOL



hobble a human in downtown bad area of detroit or LA or NYC or anywhere in the world....how long they got?

LOL


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## rowan57 (Sep 30, 2009)

luvzmybabz said:


> If it was a choice between not being able to feed my children and keeping my goats either hobbled or in a pen/cage that many may not consider large enough, guess where my goats would be!



I think that is really my point. But also, taking into account the threads recently about how many americans are falling below the poverty line etc. would these not be legitimate techniques for these people? I think increasingly the west will have to change its standards for an animals care, to take into account the increasing cost of land and food. 

There are not many people out there I will guess, that can afford the ideal 10 acres or whatever, they may have a small backyard, but need to keep animals to supplement the food they buy. Is this any different to the situation in developing countries? Maybe the actual level at which poverty is determined is different (i.e. for a family of four in the US, if you earn below $22,000 you are counted as being in poverty, if a normal african makes that in 10 years theyre doing well), but the principle still applies, kind of like that square foot gardening thing but with animals I guess, maximising your output from a small area. 

Cheers
Rowan


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## rowan57 (Sep 30, 2009)

ozark mike said:


> one of my boys is a deputy sheriff in Minnesota... he carries a taser, before he was permitted to carry and use it he had to be shot with it to let him experience the extreme pain they can cause...anyone that hobbles an animal should have to be hobbled for an eight hour period to let them know what the animal is going through...there is just no excuse for using hobbles on any animal


Are you actually comparing being tasered to hobbling an animal? The rest of the conversation has been quite sensible, please try and keep it that way.


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## rowan57 (Sep 30, 2009)

Briza said:


> It's really unfair to judge other situations from our lucky perspective of well fed animals in big spaces and lots of choice livestock setups. Things are not like here in most of the rest of the world. And livestock is really just a food source in most places. They cannot afford to be mushy about it. It's about survival.
> 
> WOW!
> That is such an elitist statement. How can you judge people who are trying to get enough to eat?
> ...


Thankyou for your input B. In terms of your first sentence, well thats kind of what I was looking for really, western input on these practices. Its interesting to me to see the differences in beliefs regarding the treatment / housing of animals between the west and developing countries. 

I don't think Rio meant the respect for animals thing in an elitist manner, but I think it applies to the world over, not just the developing countries or the west. A significant proportion of people who have animals do not have the proper respect for them. I would argue that they area food source and should be treated as such, but the techniques used to keep them should give them a good quality of life at the same time, what I wanted input on was whether hobbling and caging would be considered as acceptable by people from farms who can afford not to have to do either technique. And actually, I think the general response has been positive, obviously with caveats. 

Thanks
Rowan


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## rowan57 (Sep 30, 2009)

FarmerChick said:


> See you can't make that assumption
> 
> of course animals being herded in Africa are skin and bones mostly---there ain't no great grazing grounds now is there?
> 
> ...


Sorry I should have made myself clear, I was specifically talking about herding in the african context, I have no experience / knowledge of other herding systems and was not generalising. 

Cut and feed is actually a big thing in Africa. Nothing is 'shipped in'. Most cut and feed is grass of one kind or another, Napier grass for example. It is a cheap but good source of food, as well as Maize stover (the left over plant once the cob has been removed). Pineapple waste from Del Monte is another cheap source of food local to where I am based, obviously this wouldnt apply to all areas of Africa. There is actually lots of affordable feed available in africa, you just have to be willing to go and collect it. 

Thanks
Rowan


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

Great Thread.
Great discussion.
B~


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## FarmerChick (Dec 28, 2009)

I think I know what you mean now.

You are saying---if I am quessing right----that more Americans (and other countries) should be incorporating small confinement, etc. to be able to grow their own meats on small land?

Is that right?

And to use practices from other areas in that situation?


If that is what you are saying---yes I agree.

Yes someone on 1 acre can have a pen for some goats. Many homesteads had a cow in a smaller pen. For milking right at your door. Yes many farms never had tons of pasture for their livestock. Hogs were kept in pens and fed scrapes etc until butchering.

I think I got your drift now.


But being in America right now, we do things big..LOL...but yes there are many small farmers that can do animals on small land. I think it is done all the time actually. many a 1 or 2 acre home has a few chickens in a coop with a small outdoor run....they have a few goats in a small enclosure....they might have a cow for milk on 1/10 acre pasture, a few ducks in a pen with a baby's swimming pool for water, a few quail in a coop, etc

there are tons of animals that are "small housed" on little land in my area.



I think I got it right..LOL
if you mean that..LOL


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## luvzmybabz (Sep 8, 2008)

The cut and feed issue would fit right in with your horticulture as goat poo is not hot it can go directly into the garden area. So not only does the goat provide the family with milk and meat but also with free fertilizer for its home garden. I compost all my barn and pen (dry lot and ones with grass get raked and it get used in flower beds, garden area and around the base of my berry bushes). 

These people need maximum output on minimum input, they live vastly different lives then we do here in America.


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## QoTL (Jun 5, 2008)

I think it all comes down to the welfare of the animal. 

Unfortunately, to way too many people, what's in the animals best interests (and happiness) is completely confused with what people THINK they want. The needs of my goats, my chickens, my cats, my dogs are NOT the same needs I have. And as long as they aren't the ones heading off to work every day, or cleaning the house, or providing the bulk of the nurishment, then they have less voice in decisions that I do. So they will be loved on, provided treatment when necessary, even given treats on occasion. BUT they all live under a certain financial restriction. Which sadly means, if my very favorite dog had to have $10,000 treatment, we would have to make a very horrible decision. That's just the way it is here.

I had a whole rant here.. LOL. I'm deleting it though to just say this: 
I think sometimes we get confused about what an animal needs versus what we THINK they need. And sometimes people have to make a much more specific distinction between NEED and WANT than we do. 

I don't see a problem with hobbling. And I don't actually see a problem with tying out for short periods with supervision, either. I cannot condone keeping any animal in a tiny cage (even with enough room to stand up and turn around) for his/her entire lifespan, although I'm sure it can be done successfully. Hobbling seems much more humane than that, with lots of potential freedom. 

I'm one of those weird individuals who think providing green stuff for my goats, in whatever way possible, is preferable to being fed just hay with the green stuff out of reach because it's beyond the confines of their yard. All of the maurading predator comments have merit, and I think we have to be responsible. 

But we have to balance everything out. I think sometimes we lose sight of that, and therefore, as other posters have mentioned, the relationship between critter and human gets confused. Instead of having them to provide milk, meat, eggs, etc.. they have us as servants and they just free load, with us providing ever increasing amounts of whatever we think they NEED (again.. confusing need with want).

At any rate.. it turned into a rant lol. I appreciate this thread, and glad for the chance to voice this here. I will say my attitudes have changed as I've gotten older... when I was young and idealistic I would have gasped at the idea of having anything other than what Vicki posted as the 'ideal'. These days, I know sometimes we have to trim off the excess and do the best we can. And as long as everyone is happy and healthy, than we are doing it right.

That said, my chickens have been on egg laying hiatus for months. But they are pets and I love them.. LOL. See, even with a fairly 'balanced' idea of what is acceptable here and what is not, I still have room to choose to feed, house, and clean up after them even though they don't come close to earning their keep. Obviously, without money for grain and shavings, that wouldn't even be an option... and we'd have a freezer full of meat.


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## rowan57 (Sep 30, 2009)

QoTl, you make some fantastic points and I agree with you on all counts. On your chicken front, I have a very simple philosophy about animals - if they dont provide anything (alive), then they will provide dinner for a day or two (dead). No exceptions. If you buy a dog for guard dog duty on the understanding that it comes from good guarding stock, but it wont guard, it either goes back or gets sold (At worst you can sell it to the chinese who will eat it). If you buy goats for milk, but the milk is not of good quality or not enough, then you have goat for dinner and start again. Same goes for chickens.

Think about it this way: Sure, you can probably afford to pamper these non producing chickens, but 'just because it is, doesnt mean it should be'. 

Thanks
Rowan



QoTL said:


> I think it all comes down to the welfare of the animal.
> 
> Unfortunately, to way too many people, what's in the animals best interests (and happiness) is completely confused with what people THINK they want. The needs of my goats, my chickens, my cats, my dogs are NOT the same needs I have. And as long as they aren't the ones heading off to work every day, or cleaning the house, or providing the bulk of the nurishment, then they have less voice in decisions that I do. So they will be loved on, provided treatment when necessary, even given treats on occasion. BUT they all live under a certain financial restriction. Which sadly means, if my very favorite dog had to have $10,000 treatment, we would have to make a very horrible decision. That's just the way it is here.
> 
> ...


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## QoTL (Jun 5, 2008)

Rowan-

I completely agree with you about the chickens.

But as long as I can still choose to keep them, I choose to do so. And I understand it's my choice only- not everyone gets to make a decision there.

It all sort of reminds me of someone on another board. She was VERY new to chickens, and was horrified at 'culling' any. She made the statement that she would be keeping every roo hatched, little realizing that to HER that was the right thing to do, but to the CHICKENS, too many roos makes life miserable. 

It's less probable to say would you, as a human, be happy in a cage or hobbled with all your HUMAN hopes and dreams. It makes more sense to say if you were a goat, with goat dreams of green leaves and strings of friends, be happy in a cage or hobbled? Dogs aren't people in furry coats, and goats aren't people with fancy headgear.

Meghan


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

Wow! Found so many good points in this discussion. Yes we in the West do have a different attitude about animal care. But I think the differences are in a large part adaptation to our environment and what is allowed... 
For me hobbling my goats would never work simply because I am gone 9 hours a day. I only have a small parcel of land compared to some and everything here has a job. 
Since I am a single mom raising my kids on my own and I make less than 30k a year I fall into the poverty line. I kills me every time I go to the store to buy food and 5-7 dollars of it are taxes. Our economy is so very different one really cant compare them. LOL my oldest daughter just moved out after "needing a place to stay" for 5 months and now my cupboards are bare! Dang it should have processed _her_ since she was eating more than providing.(jk) I do have 2 doz eggs in the frig, 1/2gal of milk, and the Christmas ham we won't starve and I consider this lucky. But I digress. I do have to say my doe's even now with snow on the ground and more falling by the second are not locked up in the barn they come and go as they please, but my buck is kept in a pen because he would eat to much for his once a year service  the pen is a dog run expanded with cattle panels so about 16'x24' would this be considered cruel? My dogs are kept in a fenced area that is almost 1/2 acre along with the chickens why because I can't be there to watch them 24/7 so I adapted their living to our environment. 
Part of our humanity is the ability to solve a problem and adapt the solution to meet our needs and in Africa hobbling may be the best solution they have come up with so far.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

First, hobbles is just the silliest idea. Easy prey for anything that pleases, and the animal would get hung up on EVERYTHING. If you want to become a full time goat herder, then I suppose it would be OK - but how likely is that? 

I will never condone 'tiny' pens or cages no matter the situation. In almost every way I imagine it would lead you to 'factory farm'-like conditions. Tiny cages/areas lead to filthy environments (unless you like cleaning several times per week - who has time?) which leads to disease. Anything that keeps an animal from behaving normally will cause stress. Pretty soon you're pumping them full of antibiotics to keep them healthy, and mutilating them so they can't injure themselves/others because of overcrowding or stress.

Adequate sized pens don't have to be HUGE, though. I prefer pasturing my animals when I can, because it cuts the feed bill. If you are low on space, You could make multiple small pens and do rotational grazing. I do have my buck goats in fairly 'small' pens and they are free fed hay. Not a pasture, but adequately sized for a single buck to exercise and behave normally. I think you could house animals 'adequately' and still feed your family well.

I would say if you have small acreage, plan for 'smaller' animals. Get miniature dairy or meat goats, raise rabbits, raise chickens, raise a few feeder pigs, and maybe even raise a meat cow on dry lot. A pasture doesn't have to be HUGE - just enough for normal behavior and exercise. The housing should be large enough not to overcrowd, feeders should be placed far enough apart that , for example, goats that are lower on the totem pole aren't injured or starved during feeding time, and hay will likely have to be feed free choice 24/7. It could be done, if well planned out and managed.


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