# Treated 6 x 6 post



## "SPIKE"

I need to build one more building on my property. I have built a 28 x 45 that is divided into garage and shop area. I also have built a 20 x 30 that has an enclosed area for mower/tiller/gardening stuff and the rest is open on one side for tractor/implement and stuff.

Since I acquired pigs and goats last year, I need a barn type building. The Garage has 7 large garbage cans in it for feed plus other livestock stuff and the implement/stuff area in the other building had to be used for hay storage. The animals all have small individual housing buildings. I need my garage and implement areas back! LOL

I need a building for feed and hay storage. An area for birthing. An area for milking. This will be the main purposes of this building.

The post in my other 2 buildings are either on a slab or on a concrete peir. 
The treated post that are rated for ground contact are guaranteed for 40 years.
*Do they really last that long with an end burried in the ground?* Do they rot off at ground level early? I usually build like I think I will live forever and want the building to last, but I am 55. For some reason I have always had a mental glitch when it comes to burying wood in the ground.

SPIKE


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> Do they really last that long with an end burried in the ground?


I've seen some last longer than that.

There's an old fence post on my farm I need to get a picture of.
It's only about 3 X 3, and an Oak tree has grown *around *it, so I'm guessing it's been there over 60 years

It's hard to say for sure about the new type of "treated" lumber, since it hasn't been out that long


----------



## avrugu

They say where it meets the ground is the vulnerable area. I've never run across anything PT rotted out in my 25 years or so of building and remodeling though. 

I feel the same about doing things once and right and I'm going to build my own pole barn by burying PT 6x6 4' but back fill with gravel so water drains. 

If your posts are actually embedded in concrete piers rather than fastened to them above grade I'd feel less confident about their longevity.


----------



## "SPIKE"

Bearfootfarm said:


> I've seen some last longer than that.
> 
> There's an old fence post on my farm I need to get a picture of.
> It's only about 3 X 3, and an Oak tree has grown *around *it, so I'm guessing it's been there over 60 years
> 
> It's hard to say for sure about the new type of "treated" lumber, since it hasn't been out that long


I agree about the unknown with the new treating process, but I guess it is better than unknowingly poisoning ourselves.

SPIKE


----------



## "SPIKE"

avrugu said:


> They say where it meets the ground is the vulnerable area. I've never run across anything PT rotted out in my 25 years or so of building and remodeling though.
> 
> I feel the same about doing things once and right and I'm going to build my own pole barn by burying PT 6x6 4' but back fill with gravel so water drains.
> 
> If your posts are actually embedded in concrete piers rather than fastened to them above grade I'd feel less confident about their longevity.


Where I have poured piers, the post are attached above grade.
Even when fencing I try to have on hand gravel or course sand for part of the fill.

Good drainage is part of the key. I have even thought about painting the burried part with multiple coats of old oil so it would soak into the wood. 

Thanks all for the input.

SPIKE


----------



## Micheal

Well, I've got a pole barn which used 4x6's for the poles and after 40 plus years of being in the ground I'd say I could replace, well at least repair, maybe a quarter of them. Most all the damage is roughly 2-3 inches above and/or below ground level.
One thing I will say though these poles were creasote treated, not the current "stuff" they now use and yes I do believe that there is a "big" difference.


----------



## jwal10

Buy the posts for pole barns not the "treated" like for sills and such. The green, not the brown. Used to be able to get 4"x4"s in geen, hard to now. I built all my shed with 4"x4's set on a concrete block and bedded in crushed rock, tamped and mounded around the post. They show no signs of rot above, at or 6" below ground....James


----------



## Darren

[QUOTE="SPIKE";5677570]I need to build one more building on my property. I have built a 28 x 45 that is divided into garage and shop area. I also have built a 20 x 30 that has an enclosed area for mower/tiller/gardening stuff and the rest is open on one side for tractor/implement and stuff.

Since I acquired pigs and goats last year, I need a barn type building. The Garage has 7 large garbage cans in it for feed plus other livestock stuff and the implement/stuff area in the other building had to be used for hay storage. The animals all have small individual housing buildings. I need my garage and implement areas back! LOL

I need a building for feed and hay storage. An area for birthing. An area for milking. This will be the main purposes of this building.

The post in my other 2 buildings are either on a slab or on a concrete peir. 
The treated post that are rated for ground contact are guaranteed for 40 years.
*Do they really last that long with an end burried in the ground?* Do they rot off at ground level early? I usually build like I think I will live forever and want the building to last, but I am 55. For some reason I have always had a mental glitch when it comes to burying wood in the ground.

SPIKE[/QUOTE]

"Most dimensional pressure treated lumber is treated to .25 or .40 pcf in ACQ. Larger dimensional lumber (2x8 and above) can be treated to .60 pcf with CCA but only for use in certain commercial construction applications. We usually recommend .60 pcf (CCA or ACQ) for freshwater use, ground contact, or extreme weather conditions, .80 CCA for government specifications or brackish (salty fresh) water, *and 2.5 pcf CCA for projects in saltwater. "*


That's your "forever" wood if you can get it. This supplier is in Texas but Culpepper in VA also does it as well as other treatment plants. I buy the stuff out of NJ from a place that supplies timber and piling for docks and bulkheads. If you can find a stocking retail outlet, they won't care what you're using the stuff for even though the EPA is apoplectic over CCA. Cover it with another wood if there's a chance of cribbing.

http://www.americanpoleandtimber.com/prod_treatedlumber.shtml


----------



## travis91

Here where im at a 4x4 post that is treated your lucky to get 10 years out of being in the ground with out concrete


----------



## wharton

If you decide to go with typical lumberyard grade material, it is critical that you drop the post in the hole completely uncut. On a bigger timber the treating only penetrates an inch or so into the wood, so a cut post will expose the untreated core.


----------



## dirtman

Here code required all ground contact lumber treated to .60 I have built a butt load to pole barns and their all still standing. 6x6 posts are pricy and only required here is building spans over 40 ft and that requirement has only been in effect for the past 7 years. If I have time to build a new one for myself I think I'll use 8x8x8 concrete blocks stacked and filled with a rebar and concrete just because the columns will stay straight and they will be there for my great grandkids. Also they wouldn't cost more that the 6x6's At the top you have to drop a length of 4x4 into the top block to nail the truss carriers to. As you stack the blocks install a 3/8x4 carriage bolt every third block to attach the girts to. Just an idea


----------



## PlicketyCat

Some treatments can wick up the end grain if the wood is new/green enough when treated and that might help keep it from rotting out where it's buried. In poor drainage areas, I'd still opt for concrete piers that go up above grade a few inches before the wood post connection.

Rotting out isn't much of a problem here as the %$#$ carpenter ants are, and PT only seems to be marginally effective against them (I imagine the same would be true of termites down south). As much as I hate using poisons, we have to put ant spikes next to our buried posts every spring or they'd be hollowed out at ground level by fall.

However, I've seen several of the old homesteads with buried posts that were simply green cut, debarked timbers with the ends soaked for a season in used motor oil mixed with diesel and the sides painted with it prior to construction, and they're still in fine shape several decades later. No rot and no carpenter ants.


----------



## Darren

PlicketyCat said:


> Some treatments can wick up the end grain if the wood is new/green enough when treated and that might help keep it from rotting out where it's buried. In poor drainage areas, I'd still opt for concrete piers that go up above grade a few inches before the wood post connection.
> 
> Rotting out isn't much of a problem here as the %$#$ carpenter ants are, and PT only seems to be marginally effective against them (I imagine the same would be true of termites down south). As much as I hate using poisons, we have to put ant spikes next to our buried posts every spring or they'd be hollowed out at ground level by fall.
> 
> However, I've seen several of the old homesteads with buried posts that were simply green cut, debarked timbers with the ends soaked for a season in used motor oil mixed with diesel and the sides painted with it prior to construction, and they're still in fine shape several decades later. No rot and no carpenter ants.


That's when the CCA treatment helps. The lumber is kiln dried first then pressurized with Chromated copper arsenate. Unless the carpenter ants are immune to arsenic, they're not, they're dead if they chomp on the stuff.


----------



## PlicketyCat

Yeah, the old CCA stuff (now hard to find) doesn't get bothered by the ants, but the new CA-B stuff barely deters them. ACQ works in town and rural areas as long as you aren't in the middle of a forest with lots of stumps and fallen trees (like we are). 

I did test some of the CedarCide treatment, that chemically alters the water in wood at the molecular level (some form of acetylation, I guess) so it won't rot and isn't digestible. Anyway, nothing has bothered that foundation platform so far... not dry rot, ants, mushrooms or water/ice. I'm highly considering using it on all my ground contact wood from now on, especially since it's non-toxic and I noticed that the shed with that treatment was less effected by frost heave than it's brother 10 feet away... coincidence, maybe, but if water can't penetrate the fibers then maybe there isn't enough "tooth" on the wood surface for ice to catch on and jack the posts???

For non-contact exterior wood, I find a yearly spray application of a borate treatment keeps the ants away. Plus I'm slowly but surely finding and removing all the stumps and deadfall in an expanding radius around the cabin site... another "forever" project


----------



## Rootdigger

Long before modern building techniques the ancients were burying their post in the ground for their foundation. They would char the wood on the fire, this deters pests and rot, it also hardens the wood. If I do this for a pole barn using peeled logs I char, then soak in copper-green, then coat with EPDM rubber then cast it in 4-5 inches of cement on all sides.


----------



## jwal10

Rootdigger said:


> Long before modern building techniques the ancients were burying their post in the ground for their foundation. They would char the wood on the fire, this deters pests and rot, it also hardens the wood. If I do this for a pole barn using peeled logs I char, then soak in copper-green, then coat with EPDM rubber then cast it in 4-5 inches of cement on all sides.



May as well use concrete....James


----------



## Rootdigger

I am new in this part of HT so I don't mean disrespect, but ya, I kinda thought that was a given, and I would treat it with a minimum of copper green before the concrete. Concrete is a sponge, capillery osmotification, there should always be a vapor barrier between any wood and concrete. Any steel strong tie between concrete and wood is a weak point in my opinion, and screws into the drilled pressure treat exacerbate the moisture transfer in cold climates. The Canadian Building Association has lots of data for this...althought it is for straw bale building research and ignores it for the common builder, same with the research from UC Berkley. Hey, building codes are written by DuPont, Dow and Simpson strong tie, you just need to think of water transfer through different materials, pest and fungus management of various means. I will sometimes line the outside of my concrete footings for underground posts with a trash bag if necessary and called for. Wrapping the post its self in a light duty kitchen bag will do it, Mike Oehler the godfather of underground building did this with the house he built on a shifting hillside in 1975, burying in dirt with posts and no concrete and the house is sound against hydrostatic pressures to this day 37 years later. 

I was thinking this after my last post, a few year ago I had the pleasure to sleep in a 350 year old barn in Eastern Europe, it was post and pier, hand hewed HUGE logs, like 12x12 posts, just stuck in the ground. Best I could tell they were just fire treated, I was pretty impressed. I come home and find a buddy who's PT all has to be ripped out because the zinc in the galv botls has reacted with the PT chems and now he is screwed. Have fun with that...
I'm not saying I have the answer, but I can say this.the best building materials and advice by far is what you can sleep at night with. Do your own research and don't discount what time has tought us.


----------



## jwal10

OK, I was just saying to use concrete for the pier and put the post on top with a suitable attachment and not bury the post. I don't think a post on slab or treated bottom plate on slab is a whole lot better than a post in the ground, if, the slab ever gets damp. If damp it will over time hold moisture and cause rot. I like stem wall construction, this gets the concrete to wood contact well above the moisture. Having lived in Oregon all my life and doing a lot of construction and remodel over 40 years I have seen many rotted sills and posts. I have seen 100 year old oak fence posts that are still servicable but also seen ones that rotted off in 5 years. A lot is the quality of the wood, heartwood vs sapwood, oldgrowth vs much younger trees. Soil that holds water and soil that drained, etc. I try to use best practices and not rely on chance....James


----------



## PlicketyCat

There are quite a few things that were done successfully in the past with higher quality timber that I wouldn't try with today's lumber and expect it to last, not even slathered in all manner of chemical treatments. You just can't polish a turd.


----------



## bigrugger

We've built many pole buildings over the past few years using laminated posts atop a concrete pier. Much easier to select treated 2x6 lumber and laminate posts to your desired height than it will ever be to find a 6x6 with any straight lines. It seems that the quality of the bigger lumber has gone down significantly over the past 20 years.

Just my .02$ worth.

Adam


----------



## Ross

We cemented lots of 6x6s into the ground. Really not a dry location. I've had reason to dig a few up (fixing concrete curbing coming into the posts) and they're as good as new. Now this is old treated lumber not new. New could be better for all I know, but I did just add one a couple of years ago so we'll see. In 20 or so years!


----------



## texican

Most of the PT wood I've seen looks like plantation wood..... wide growth rings, instead of nice tight rings.

I'd trust a post oak tree beam, or even a log (trimmed of it's bark and sapwood) before I would the new PT wood. I know of a barn close by, 70 years old, built with nothing but post oak post and beams... still strong as steel.


----------



## frankva

In Maine they sell treated, and ground contact treated. I was looking at the end grain of 2 2x4s I have in the garage. One has 4 growth rings, other has 8-9. Big difference.

Newer PT stuff does not last like the old version, and is more reactive with fastners. Works good to stick the down end in a bucket of "stuff" like the Cuprinol that was taken off the market.

Here, conventional wisdom is asphalt shingle between the concrete and wood.


----------



## deerhunter5555

dirtman said:


> Here code required all ground contact lumber treated to .60 I have built a butt load to pole barns and their all still standing. 6x6 posts are pricy and only required here is building spans over 40 ft and that requirement has only been in effect for the past 7 years. If I have time to build a new one for myself I think I'll use 8x8x8 concrete blocks stacked and filled with a rebar and concrete just because the columns will stay straight and they will be there for my great grandkids. Also they wouldn't cost more that the 6x6's At the top you have to drop a length of 4x4 into the top block to nail the truss carriers to. As you stack the blocks install a 3/8x4 carriage bolt every third block to attach the girts to. Just an idea


Curious on this design....would you just single stack blocks or build a box/column? Would you mind posting a picture of what you are describing. Seems like a great idea!


----------

