# Help me spend some money



## cwgrl23 (Feb 19, 2004)

Now I realize that I am probably asking for trouble in asking this, but I need your input on spending some money.

Here is the deal. I am currently unable to work due to 6 knee surgeries since my accident Dec 2008. :flame: Walking/standing are not very easy and some days almost impossible. Good thing our bathroom is close! :tmi: Anyways, I have been contracted by two separate growers to wash and spin their alpaca. There is a lot of potential to do more for not only them but others as well. I have a Spinolution spinning wheel and I am using my warping board for a skein winder. Right now my MIL is literally using a comb to going through the fiber after it is dry. She gives me a bag of fluffy clouds and then I spin it. She does while she watches tv and likes doing it but she is not fast. The other problem I have is I am spending way more time washing this fiber than I get to spin it. Plus my family isn't actually happy about the extra fiber in their diets as I use the kitchen to wash it. 

So this is what I need: your top 3 pieces of equipment that you would love to have to speed up your fiber processing process. I have been looking at cottage size mill set ups but will either only be able to buy one piece at a time or figure out a fiber use for an existing product. I am currently working on the "no more fiber processing in the kitchen" issue. (Moved a bunch to my MIL's bathtub but oh mercy is that hard on one's back when your knees don't bend.

If you know of anyone that might be selling some fiber processing equipment, I would love to know about. Thanks for helping me out! 

I am open to any and all ideas. I would also be interested in building plans. I am mechanically inclined and have and adventurous hubby! :banana: He figured out how to take a pickup load of old barn lumber and turn it into a chicken coop!! I am so proud of him! First big project he ever designed/built!!! :rock:

Carrie in SD


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Wash your fiber outside. Get an induction hotplate and plug it in outside. You have to have the right pots for induction, if a magnet will stick to the bottom it is the right pot (granite/granny pots work). A friend of mine has an alpaca herd and she doesn't wash her fiber before combing.

Get a carder. You can get a hand powered one or an electric one, but it will be much faster than combing in front of the tv. Be aware, that combed fiber does not spin the same as carded fiber. Carded fiber will be fuller. I'm sure your customers don't know there is a difference, but they will if they have been getting combed and you switch to carded. Combing or carding outside can be a problem because of wind, even a little breeze. A carder is small and you can set it up on a sturdy little table in an out of the way place. Possibly your MIL could use it while watching tv. Do a little research into carders, keeping in mind that you are now a business and need to invest in the best you can get. Try Craig's list, ebay, and just a general search to find a used carder.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

I processed a bunch of alpaca last year, and I have a friend who does this as a business, and I've helped her. Here's my recommendation based on that experience:

*I* prefer combing - because alpaca is SO HARD TO GET CLEAN OF VM. Depending where you live though, maybe they haven't had much hay to eat (pasture more of the year, or fed pelleted food) and maybe the fibre is clean already. If it's nice and fine though, combing is the way to go. Really.

The ideal process, IMHO, is to wash ...

a big sink you can put outside is wonderful (I have an old laundry sink outdoors) - and if you can set a mesh grate in the bottom (like the plastic screens on fans or some kinds of fluorescent lights) then as the fibre soaks, the sand and stuff sinks under the grate but when you let the water out, the grate catches the fibre so it doesn't pick up the sand again; also note that alpaca does not need heat for washing - lukewarm water from the garden hose is plenty; I like to wash it with a bit of SOAK so I don't need to worry about rinsing out any soap residue

then dry ...

a series of shelves or screens with tulle coverings to keep things from blowing away is great; I actually have one of those 'portable greenhouse shelf' things I use quite often, my friend has a sweater dryer that is several mesh shelves and has a built in fan so the fibre dries quicker

then hand pick and sort ...

a sheet on the floor with the fleece on it, then bags on either side (paper grocery bags are great, or those collapsible toy/laundry bins) so you can sort by length, and softness, and colour if necessary 

then comb ...

doesn't have to be a perfect combing job (though it might be - I'd do the 'perfect combing job' with the really nice fleeces) but it will get it nice and clean and ready for carding

then hackle and diz into top ...

if you did a good job combing, lash onto a hackle and diz it into nice rovings

or drum card and roll into thin batts ...

if you have a FINE TOOTH (must be fine tooth, believe me, I've tried carding alpaca on my wool carder, and my friend's fine tooth one does MUCH BETTER) carder you can make batts and roll them off with a piece of dowelling so they come out nicely


Honestly, having done both, I think that the combs and hackle are less work and give a nicer product. Also, even a REALLY NICE set of combs and a beautiful hackle are gonna cost you about 1/3 of what a decent drum carder will cost you.

My two cents!


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Oh, and if your knee is giving you trouble, treadling is likely to be a challenge.

I would suggest that you put your money into an electric spinner, then a really good set of two tine fine tooth combs, a wide hackle, and a nice diz.


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## cwgrl23 (Feb 19, 2004)

I should have mentioned I live in South Dakota. Most months we have snow. Doing much outside is difficult. I love my Wheel! It doesn't bother my knees at all. They do make an Art Yarn flyer that will hold 2 POUNDS of fiber! That is one the wish list too. 

What kind of carders do you like for alpaca Frazzle?

Keep them ideas coming! Loving it!

Carrie in SD


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## DroppedAtBirth (Sep 23, 2010)

Forgive my newbie question, but would an old wringer washer set up in the laundry room be an idea that might help?


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

If you're gonna card, you need the fine ones, like cotton carders.

I like combs. Any combs with closely spaced teeth - WIHH is our resident expert on combs.  If you want to try it out for a bit, the Louet Double Row Minicombs would be a good place to start - I used those myself on quite a lot of fibre. They are light, so you can use them for a long, long time and not get weary. 

Those, or perhaps another brand (again, see what WIHH would say) and then a hackle (any hackle that you find at a good price) would be my honest recommendation.

For washing, once it's not frozen you can at least wash outside and let the water drain. Or, wash in the house but find a way to do it so you aren't having to do a lot of bending. Another way to do it in the tub is to lay a BIG piece of tulle in the tub (like it has to fill the entire tub and come up the sides) then put the water in, then immerse the fibre. You can do a whole fleece at once this way, it just needs LOTS OF WATER so it can float around, and it should soak for at least several hours, IMHO. When it's done soaking, lift the corners of the tulle and heft the fibre up while the water drains from the tub - you can do that without having to kneel beside the tub. 

If you can get a large rack of some kind that you can balance over the top of your bathtub, then you set the rack on the tub while the water runs out, and set the tulle-bundle of fleece on that to drip for an hour or so. Then, lay it out on the sweater drying rack(s) or whatever you've found (you can just lay it on the floor, if you flip it every so often, but racks are better).

Washing and combing ARE the biggest part of the job. The spinning is the easy and fast part.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

And if I remember rightly, the Spinolution is geared, right? It's one of the few modern wheels that DOES have very easy treadling. However, if you will be doing a lot, you still may want to look into an espinner ... even just for the plying.


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## mamajohnson (Nov 27, 2002)

I made a bag of sorts to wash fiber in. DH had a stroke when he thought fiber was going to end up in the drain. So, I doubled some tulle I got out of the remnant bin. Doubled the tulle, ran a few seams and made a draw string top. It's big enough that I can lay it out in the tub and wash without too much trouble. Then it can be lifted up and just let to drain. That would work to contain all that extra fiber.


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## PKBoo (Apr 10, 2008)

frazzlehead said:


> Another way to do it in the tub is to lay a BIG piece of tulle in the tub (like it has to fill the entire tub and come up the sides) then put the water in, then immerse the fibre. You can do a whole fleece at once this way, it just needs LOTS OF WATER so it can float around, and it should soak for at least several hours, IMHO. When it's done soaking, lift the corners of the tulle and heft the fibre up while the water drains from the tub - you can do that without having to kneel beside the tub.


THIS! I got an old laundry tub and a wringer washer on CL - best best fleece washing set-up! I also use a few dishtubs and can have three 'rounds' going on at the same time. It's been awesome, and I am just flying through the washing.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

cwgrl23 said:


> What kind of carders do you like for alpaca Frazzle?


You'll want a drum carder with a high TPI (tips per inch). I have great results with my Pat Green Deb's Delicate Deluxe


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Yes, my friend who does alpaca processing has one of these, and a Fancy Kitty as well.


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## cwgrl23 (Feb 19, 2004)

Wind in Her Hair said:


> I know, I know - but I would just think that all that treadling would get tiresome to a body -hence the creation and development of CPWs. :shrug: While the bulky flyer can HOLD alot of yarn, the wheel itself is not ergonomically designed to spin POUNDS at a sitting. The CPWs with their HUGE drive wheels and metal footpedal have a LOT of momentum going for the human effort.


I wouldn't be opposed to trying one out that is for sure. Right now I am making it work. He and I have an understanding so we will keep treadling on. :grin: 

Have you got one of these wonder wheels? If so, can you bring it to NCFF this year? Although for some reason, my DH is afraid of you and I getting together in person. He seems to think we might get into trouble? :rotfl::rotfl:

Carrie in SD


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## cwgrl23 (Feb 19, 2004)

frazzlehead said:


> And if I remember rightly, the Spinolution is geared, right? It's one of the few modern wheels that DOES have very easy treadling. However, if you will be doing a lot, you still may want to look into an espinner ... even just for the plying.


I honestly don't know if it is geared or not. LOL I peddle and he turns either to the right or the left. :gaptooth: 

I will have to consider an espinner for the future. Right now it is the cleaning part that is the hardest on me. Because Spinolutions have a unique treadle set up, it does not stress my knees. It is a very similar motion to riding a bike, so I can also use it for physical therapy! 

Carrie in SD


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## cwgrl23 (Feb 19, 2004)

PKBoo said:


> THIS! I got an old laundry tub and a wringer washer on CL - best best fleece washing set-up! I also use a few dishtubs and can have three 'rounds' going on at the same time. It's been awesome, and I am just flying through the washing.


I too am using the dishtub method. For that amount I have to do, it takes up too much room. 

I do like the wash sink & wringer set up. Will have to show that one to the hubby!!


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

I have also used a kiddy pool outside, once it's nice. You can get a LOT done that way.


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## FMO3 (Nov 22, 2009)

When I did production spinning years ago, I bought the best equipment I could find, now granted it cost a pretty penny. But, I still have it to use for myself now. The biggest thing I see people doing is wasting time washing small amounts of fiber at a time. I still wash whole fleeces at once, takes the same time to wash a pound as it does to wash ten pounds. I found an old steam kettle to wash the wool in, it holds 40 gallons of water and can get the water to boiling in about 5 minutes. I made a large bag(or like a tarp) to use to lift in and out of the tub. Also, added a water circulation system on to it, to getting the water moving inside of the fiber...think aquarium pump but bigger. I can wash up to 100 pounds of fiber in one day, as I rinsed in different tubs. I would do 2 washes, and 2-3 rinses.

I built a drying rack, just like a bread cart with about 9 shelves that pull out and push back in, I would try to wash everything for a month worth of spinning in one day. 

Next, I bought a picker, not the box type but a swinging cradle picker. I can pick about 5 pounds of wool an hour with this piece of equipment. It saves on the hand work also. It goes out some of the VM, but not all.

Then I built myself a drum carder because at that time, there was one electric model on the market and I was not impressed with it at all. My carder has a 16 inch swift, that is 12 inches wide. So I could get batts that where roughly 5-6 oz each. I put 120 tpi carding cloth on the main drum and 90 tpi on the licker in drum. I would card each batt just once, I use a light feed in, and geared the drum down to where it was slow. I got better carding action that way. If I was going to do it over again, I would build one with a larger swift and two sets of strippers, and a fancy brush and pull a roving off of the back end of the carder.

I used a matchless wheel for all my spinning with a high speed bobbins. I was spinning at a ratio of roughly 20:1. Trying to hit my goal of 200 yards per hour plied. I used a louet flyer and bobbin set up hooked to a motor to ply, as it would hold two schacht bobbins worth of yarn. Skeined off 200 yard skeins. The big thing most people have trouble with is the spinning speed. You have to train you hands to work faster, and can not inch worm your way though fiber. I was spinning at the point of twist, to get the yard aged needed. I did this for about three years, then kept track of time, and found it more cost effective to send the fiber to a mill to be carded. Now, I just have the mill do the carding and spinning.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Very educational, FM03, thank you!


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## cwgrl23 (Feb 19, 2004)

FMO3 said:


> When I did production spinning years ago, I bought the best equipment I could find, now granted it cost a pretty penny. But, I still have it to use for myself now. The biggest thing I see people doing is wasting time washing small amounts of fiber at a time. I still wash whole fleeces at once, takes the same time to wash a pound as it does to wash ten pounds. I found an old steam kettle to wash the wool in, it holds 40 gallons of water and can get the water to boiling in about 5 minutes. I made a large bag(or like a tarp) to use to lift in and out of the tub. Also, added a water circulation system on to it, to getting the water moving inside of the fiber...think aquarium pump but bigger. I can wash up to 100 pounds of fiber in one day, as I rinsed in different tubs. I would do 2 washes, and 2-3 rinses.
> 
> I built a drying rack, just like a bread cart with about 9 shelves that pull out and push back in, I would try to wash everything for a month worth of spinning in one day.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for the info! I would to see plans or pictures of your drum carder. My dad said he would try to build me one but he really needs at least a picture to go by.

We are looking at scaling up our process so I can do a whole fleece at a time instead of about a just a dish tub full at a time. We are also looking at offering our washing services to get started. As money allows, we would add carding and spinning equipment as well. 

What do you think? Would there be any interest out in the wide world of fiber to have fiber washed only? The fiber would be fluffed but not carded. We could also do dye jobs but would have to work our way up to the rest. We are looking at concentrating on the fine fibers such as alpaca, lama, and buffalo and such. Around my area, there is no one that wants to deal with them. They only want to do sheep. 

Are we nuts? Or is this a good idea?

Carrie in SD


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## FMO3 (Nov 22, 2009)

ThÃ¨ drum carder that I built was just a larger version of the table top models. I kept the drums to where they would be adjustable, as at times you have to move the drums back and forth a little. You can find drawings online of a cottage carder that Pat Green built years ago.

As far as washing, you just need a couple large tubs, I know woolen mills that use old bathtubs, or sinks. The biggest thing is how you are going to get rid of all the water that you use during the washing process. Most cities and towns will not let it be put into the sewer system. Also if you pay for water that adds more to your cost. I know of a couple of scouring trains that are running here in the US. You are going to have to compete with them, of raw fiber to dried fiber in less than an hour. I the cost to send wool for washing is $1.70 per pound with a minimum of 100 pounds. I now send about 500 pounds of wool a year to a scouring train than to a spinning mill. For a small amount to wash I think you would have to be in the $3 price point range and be able to wash at least 100 pounds a day. To make any money at it at all, since most mills offer washing services to people that will card at their mills.

If you want to know if its profitable call up a woolen mill and ask questions. Right now, am getting wool raw to spun state for just $9 per pound plus shipping cost that ad about $0.50 per pound. That is why I just find it more cost effective to send it out to the mills to have done,


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Woolen mills have been closing. People send their fleeces half way across the country to have them processed. Zeilinger's in Michigan charges:
$ 5 pound to wash only
7.90 pound to wash and put into roving
8.85 pound to wash and put into roving fine and exotic (alpaca)
13.00 pound to process angora
2.90 pound on top of the above for pindrafting

These are based on weight as you bring in the fleece, so if you did not skirt your fleece very well you are paying more. If the fleece is heavy with lanolin or dirt, you pay more. Also, your neighbors aren't brining you 100 pounds of wool, you are getting a few pounds of alpaca. The most sheep I've ever had was 15, so I paid the $7.90 a pound to Zeilinger's. This past year I processed my own wool because I do a better job on the fine fleece. You are also doing a better job than a large commercial mill would do on alpaca.

I'd say you could develop a business washing fleece. If your Dad will make you a carder, perhaps he could make it larger than the conventional domestic carder. The 5' diameter carders that Zeillinger's uses are a century old, but probably more than you need (and space would be an issue!) One thing you have going for you is that you don't use chemicals. Except for a few mom and pop mills, commercial mills use chemicals to cook out straw and debri from fleece. This is one reason Marr Haven (yarn) will be closing their doors, because their mill can't process their wool without chemicals anymore.

What I see in the photos above seems to be a good place to start. All you need to process wool is a big tub with a spinner, but even an old wringer would be easier to work with than a bathtub or tubs that you have to dump the water out of.

Go for it! Go to your local USDA office. You may be able to get a rural guaranteed loan, or they may know of a grant you can apply for. There is also grant money available to make your home handicap accessible.


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