# I'm just curious



## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

I have been following some things in Native American country. Everyone always goes on and on about the proud Native American, and how they are in tune with the land, etc. But lately, they have been in two fights, one for gambling with their casinos, and the other to sell cigaettes. Is this the new face of the Native American, one of vices? Is this really the fight they want to be known for? www.indiancountrytoday.com


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I live outside a reservation. When we first moved out here the poverty level on the res was appalling. There were people without water or electricity some did not even have glass in their windows. The Clan Mothers will not allow gambling but the sale of cigarettes and gas has had a great impact on life there. It has also had a good impact on businesses outside the res. The only ones not making out is the great state of New York and it galls Albany to the enth degree. They have been trying to break the treaties for years now so they can collect taxes. As far as the sale of cigarettes goes, it is a vice but I see its sale as one of economic survival. I do not believe that it changes their traditions.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

In tune with the land.Thats a Joke anymore.I was married to a Native American but she was raised in the woods her family were Loggers.But like anyone that had never step foot off the Pavement she had family that I feel would die within a month having to depend on living off the land.

But when I went into their area I did stock up on cigaettes.

big rockpile


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Well, I have nothing against them, we took there land, put them on reservations, gave them nothing to eat, no skills to improve their lives,gave them alchohol to make drunks out of them, so don`t anyone go and blame them. They have finally figured out how to get back at us, and they are going to use it. Thanks Marc


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

We love the Native American for what they were before we destroyed them. Kind of in the same way that we name an office park after whatever was there before we destroyed it. "Whispering Pines Business Center", "Wild Goose Office Pavillion", "Salmon Stream Business Park", etc.


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## OkieDavid (Jan 15, 2007)

Re: Eastern woodland tribes. We forceably moved them from their native lands and settled them where we wanted them with the promise of "as long as the grass shall grow and the rivers shall flow". Didn't last 100yrs then we opened "their" lands in the land rush..... Fast forward a hundred years and they threw up some casinos and we are literally providing the funding to; increase their health services, quality of life, educational opportunities, build housing and provide them the funding to buy back every acre of land we took from them that comes available. I'd say they are doing alright for themselves and power to them for the way "we" treated them.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

Yea alot of them are businessmen just like the rest of us. There are a few traditional tribes left out there and they try to make money from tourists but when was the last time you went to an Traditional Indian Ceremony or bought their handmade blankets? There's just no money in it so not many are doing it.


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

springvalley said:


> Well, I have nothing against them, we took there land, put them on reservations, gave them nothing to eat, no skills to improve their lives,gave them alchohol to make drunks out of them, so don`t anyone go and blame them. They have finally figured out how to get back at us, and they are going to use it. Thanks Marc


Well, I live on an Indian Reservation. I am not Native American, this is what is known as an "open" reservation, which means that non Indians can live on it as opposed to a "closed" reservation which means only Indians can live on it. In fact, the reservation I live on has almost 90% whites and only 10% Indians, yet it is still a 'sovereign nation'. Don't kid yourself about Native Americans and their opportunities. They don't just have to have casinos! Native Americans have every opportunity just like everyone else, only some choose not to do anything better with their lives. Kind of like the whole gang thing and ghettos - there's another example of how those kids could clean up and live differently, but they choose to embrace a gang lifestyle.

As for "taking away their land".......land ownership was a foreign concept to the Native American. They didn't have deeds and contracts. They just lived there. Sometimes temporarily, too. The whole thing about "reservations" was some politicians bad idea 150 yrs ago. Reservations make no sense today. You say "no skills to improve their lives".......really? Most of what we learned came from Native Americans. In their opinions, they didn't need white man's improvements. As for "giving them alcohol", nobody poured it down their throats by force. It was a matter of time before alcohol came to the Native American lifestyle. Today, the percentage of drug and alcohol abuse is very high among Native Americans. And continues to be. Here on my reservation, there are numerous drug programs and alcohol rehab services. The tribal elders encourage young folks to take advantage of these programs. But drug abuse keeps increasing at an alarming rate. The tribal chief is a woman, a Harvard graduate, who constantly encourages young folks to do something with their lives. The Indians here are NOT "stuck" on the reservation. If they live here, it is by choice. The reservation Indians enjoy a lot of benefits, freebies, and programs that whites cannot have here. Many whites who have even 1/64th Indian heritage try to claim this heritage just to take advantage of these benefits. 

I have found that today's Native Americans still continue their native pride. Many have a chip on their shoulders a mile wide, others don't. Here on this reservation there are Indians who hate what other Indians are doing and how they live. Many think that the whole idea of reservations is something that needs to go. As for "getting back at whites"..........no, I would say that judging from what I see on my own reservation, that's not something that most Indians think about. Today's Native American has just as much opportunity as anyone else to make something of their life, and if they choose to live a life of drugs and alcohol and laziness, that's the choice they have made. They are not stuck in a life made by the white man. As far as how whites "took" their land..........the westward expansion of this nation was going to happen no matter what. Kind of like trying to fend off a new Wal Mart being built in a small town. Ever try to fight against Wal Mart?? Or trying to ward off urban developments being built outside of large cities. Good luck trying to stop that. Or trying to still maintain a small dairy farm outside of Chicago. If a developer wants to build a big condo complex, they will! They will take the land by eminent domain or whatever, but it'll get built. And THAT is how westward expansion came about. 

Funny - the whites and Indians fought fiercely 150 or so years ago, killing each other. And here I am today.........living by *choice* on an Indian reservation! Yep, that's what makes this nation great! Too bad our politicians don't' realize that.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Yuppers, upnorthlady - those who try to romanticize native Americans should "walk a mile in their moccasins" today. 

More money is allocated and poured into reservations with every yearly federal budget that is literally wasted. 

Today they have every choice and more. We need to get off this kick about what whites did "150 years ago" - that's not where anyone is today. 

In some, tribal councils are corrupt, gangs run rampid, murders, rapes occur, some go off reservations to commit crimes then run back to 'safety' - the FBI, yes, the FBI, has gone into two different reservations (that I know of) in two western states to clean them up. That is NOT about what we did to them. It is all about what they are doing to themselves. 

The government gives them every opportunity including healthcare, childcare, and housing. How they choose to deal with it is their choice. 

I need to add that many are not like what I wrote above, although if they do adapt to western ways, they are many times ridiculed by traditional native americans, and it becomes harder for them to return to the reservation to help others. 

And, yes, I have worked with many on & off res. & do count some as friends.


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

I should also mention that of the almost 90% "whites" on my reservation, at least half have some Native American blood heritage, so the number of whites vs Indians is not quite so cut and dried. The Indians here on the res get free food (commodities), free housing if they qualify (cannot have any felonies on record, unfortunately that's not the case with most), and free healthcare. If they have a job on the res and live on the res, they pay NO taxes! If they qualify for that free house, it's a very nice 2 bedroom modular house built by Indians here on the res. With all these benefits one has to wonder why anyone would complain. Or do drugs. I don't know if all reservations are like the one I live on, but life is good here! Also, the res Indians get first dibs at hunting and fishing and leeching, etc. Also first dibs at wild rice harvesting. They are treated very well and they are in charge of things here. There's no need to "feel sorry" for Native Americans living on this reservation.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

upnorthlady, do you have some indian hertiage or are you married into it? I never knew anyone can move onto a reservation. Might have its pros but i'm sure it also has its downsides.


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

Wolf mom said:


> That is NOT about what we did to them. It is all about what they are doing to themselves.
> 
> The government gives them every opportunity including healthcare, childcare, and housing. How they choose to deal with it is their choice.


Boy, you got that right! My hubby works with Indians who want no part of living in reservation housing. They don't want to live with all the drugs and crime. They buy their own house in town. Many young Indians have Native pride, to be sure, and rightly so. But they want nothing to do with the criminal element of the tribe. Tribal elections can be just like any other election - full of corruption and payoffs.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

> Today they have every choice and more. We need to get off this kick about what whites did "150 years ago" - that's not where anyone is today.


 And people feel they deserve all the money that is pumped into them...but let blacks ask for reparations for actual work done, not undocumented land ownership, and not adding that blacks have fought alongside whites in EVERY conflict America has had or initiated, INCLUDING the Indian Wars. Indians are lucky I guess...no one ever romanticizes about slavery...


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

blooba said:


> upnorthlady, do you have some indian hertiage or are you married into it? I never knew anyone can move onto a reservation. Might have its pros but i'm sure it also has its downsides.


No, I am of Polish heritage. My hubby has no Indian heritage either. On an open reservation anyone can live on it. My husband's father bought our land back in the early 1960's when the tribe was selling land because they didn't want it! Can you imagine?? They stopped doing that around 1970, and now they are trying to buy back land whenever possible. (like if land goes back to the state because there are no family members left to inherit it). 

As far as pros and cons, one pro is that the metro folks from the Twin Cities don't want to move up here. We call them "citiots". Nothing is upscale enough for them on the reservation. They don't want to deal with the tribe. This way everything is more on a natural level. We have mostly dirt roads except for in town. No fancy schmancy restaurants and upscale gift shops. No big condo complexes. (unless it is associated with the casino). Things are more "wilderness like", no developments. You get citiots living anywhere and the first thing they want is paved everything, big box stores, upscale restaurants......they basically want things to look like the twin cities. My name Upnorthlady is kind of a slam against the citiots who always want the "up north experience" but they build million dollar "cabins" and drive super fancy cars and have super expensive toys. But on the reservation they can't flaunt their money and can't build those million dollar cabins. So calling myself "upnorthlady " is kind of an inside joke, see? The tribe is actually very much into pride of the land and keeping things they way they were. And for me - that means no developments, and real beauty of the land. I like my privacy. I like my land. I enjoy the wilderness. I like the peace and quiet without all the citiots running around. Thank goodness the tribe on this res wants to keep it that way!


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

It is the same thing that is currently happening to the black population and soon to be with the hispanic and white american population... it is the entitlement mentality. Work ethic is being bred out of people...there are soon to be more takers than producers.. it is the end result ...


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

They are just like everyone else good and bad. Often the good ones have left and went out into the world and made a life for theirselves. They don't have much choice because the others will pull them down if they can.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Lots of Native Americans are mixed bloods. It's rare that I run into a full blood those days. If I do, it would probably be in an area where there are not that many whites living there in the first place. I seem to recall a genetic blood study of NAs and in one reservation, they kicked out the genetic scientists when they found out that a high percentage of the health problems the tribe was having was due to someone having babies with someone who had a genetic blood problem (Spanish, I believe) and they did not want to face up to the fact that they weren't full blooded like they thought they always were. I feel that the CDIB (certificate of Indian blood) was a racist thing for the federal government to do. I know that lots of Natives in Canada are full bloods and so forth but I also know that if you are Cherokee, you only have to be descended from a tribal member that was on the Dawes rolls. Doesn't matter how much percentage Indian blood you have. It's all up to the tribes to decide on that percentage.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

Aintlifegrand said:


> It is the same thing that is currently happening to the black population and soon to be with the hispanic and white american population... it is the entitlement mentality. Work ethic is being bred out of people...there are soon to be more takers than producers.. it is the end result ...


Is that why we are here in the first place, aintlifegrand....white folks work ethic was bred out of you white folks so you needed us and the Hispanics to do the work? At least someone has explained it! LOL!!!!


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

vickiesmom said:


> Is that why we are here in the first place, aintlifegrand....white folks work ethic was bred out of you white folks so you needed us and the Hispanics to do the work? At least someone has explained it! LOL!!!!


Yep!! But what happens when there is no one left in the country with work ethic? 










At least we paid for slaves out of our own pockets by choice without government intervention.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

1/64th and you can get benefits? I'm 1/4th Sioux and Winnebago, I should look into this. LOL!


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

bowdonkey said:


> 1/64th and you can get benefits? I'm 1/4th Sioux and Winnebago, I should look into this. LOL!


If you live on the res, check it out! The one I live on is Ojibwe, don't know if that makes a difference or not.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

The tribe I live near is part of the Senaca nation. It differs from many reservations in that the land it is on is traditional land and not federal land that the Indians were moved on to. Because of this it actually is a separate nation just like any other foreign country according to treaty with the United States. It is a matriarcal society in which all land belongs to the females of the 6 clans. The oldest women of each clan is called the clan mother and they have absolute power. Whites on the res are tolerated, barely. For example, a friend of ours was born in Germany and married an Indian while he was stationed overseas. They had three children but were not considered Indian because their mother was not one. The husband died and according to tradition they were allowed ten days of mourning and then had to leave the res. They had no right to their house or the land it sat on. After some heated debate they were allowed to stay The res has what is known as the upper res and the lower res. If you are white you better stay off the lower res. Two of my kids gave a ride home to an indian girl and were chased and shot at. It is a different world.


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

(Response to Oldcountryboy)
If you want to look at things that way, go ahead............there was killing on both sides. That all happened a long time ago. I'm not begrudging the Native Americans for what they receive today. And not all reservations are desolate "sorry pieces of ground". * This* reservation is a beautiful, fertile piece of land. And I believe there are many Native Americans who would disagree with your comments. There is never any good excuse for abusing drugs and alcohol. If you read my postings carefully, you will see that I was actually showing great respect for Native Americans. And I certainly don't appreciate your crude remarks to me.


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## whodunit (Mar 29, 2004)

I've heard one of the main things that really harmed the Indians overall was them wanting what we (the "white man" or other cultures in general) had, i.e. horses, rifles, alcohol, etc.- both the good and bad. 

I read for instance the Nez Perce were particularly keen about adapting or acquiring other culture's technology into theirs, but unfortunately the good came with the bad. I've read they often had better rifles than the U.S. Army, because they were a rich tribe (they raised and traded horses).

They appeared willing to live in harmony with the "white man" (which was not always true of all Indian tribes), but were negatively affected by government policies ("only good Indian, is a dead Indian", etc.) and broken promises, which in some cases were unintentional. For instance, the inability of the government to keep settlers off Indian lands due to lack of manpower.

We tend to lump Indians all together, but they really were all different. Even among the Nez Perce, each "band" had its own chiefs and acted in its own interest, sometimes even contrary to other bands. 

In their case, the biggest division was between the treaty (also Christianized) Nez Perce and the non-treaty (traditonal) Nez Perce. The Chritstianized Nez Perce saw the writing on the wall and adopted "white" practices (manner of dress, short hair, farming and ranching), while the others were nearly hunted into extinction.


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

Oldcountryboy said:


> Upyourslady, I got a question for you?
> 
> If a invading foreign people came over and took over your land, made you change your lifestyle, killed many, many family members to make you change your lifestyle, took all your food away, placed you on the sorryest peice of ground that wont grow anything, then run you off again cause their happen to be Gold or Oil on it, intentionally infected your people with deseased blankets to kill off as many of your people as possible, make you speak their language and not your own, make you worship their god or die if you don't, ship family members off to Europe to become slaves, and then after all of that, not once the new government even apologizes for all it's crudness it has done for the last 200 years to your people.
> _
> ...



First of all you should be ashamed of yourself for your rudeness and lack of respect for a woman by deliberately changing upnorthlady's name!

If you knew your world history you would know that the USSR invaded and took over many countries. 
They took the land, killed many family members, raped women and young children, took away food and changed everyones life. They even made all the people change their language to russian and change their religious beliefs, and god forbid if anyone stood up to them because they just dissappeared - probably killed or shipped to siberia. They were all treated like slaves!
I KNOW FOR A FACT that they came around every fall and ripped apart houses to check for any hidden "contraband" like tobacco that the people grew and suppossedly hid. The houseswere totally demolished and the poor people had to rebuild everything inside and out. Can you imagine if all your pillows and quilts were torn open and scattered all over the yard? If your fences were knocked down and your animals were running loose? If your stored food for winter was strewn all over and smashed? 
Do you think those people got handouts?
Or those people get an apology?
So give me a break about things the natives deserve. Since the beginning of man there has always been invasions and takeovers and slaves So it's time the natives stopped their "poor me" whining and got off their asses and join society as it is today and start supporting themselves. They've had a free ride for too long and most of them have chosen their lifestyles of booze and drugs and it's not because they don't have opportunities to better themselves.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

*Oldcountryboy*, have you got a problem with reading comprehension? You are so hot under the collar you didn't even read what Upnorthlady said, you just leaped without looking and went on a rant on her like a jerk. She was being very respectful in what she wrote about the natives. You should be ashamed of yourself for being so crude towards her. How can you expect anybody to give you and your so-called heritage any credibility if you can't be bothered to pay attention to the non-biased and sympathetic words of other people who speak with respect? :flame:

.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

vickiesmom said:


> I have been following some things in Native American country. Everyone always goes on and on about the proud Native American, and how they are in tune with the land, etc. But lately, they have been in two fights, one for gambling with their casinos, and the other to sell cigaettes. Is this the new face of the Native American, one of vices? Is this really the fight they want to be known for? www.indiancountrytoday.com


Well why not? Why shouldn't they take advantage and be just as capitalistic and have the same vices that were introduced to them by whites? If some of them have lost touch with the land, whose fault is that? They've had good teachers and if they want to milk the system the way they've learned from whites and cater to the white man's vices, I say all the more power to them. Let them stick it back just as good as they got stuck, and I hope they get wealthy at it. All's fair in capitalistic love and war, right? :shrug:

.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

The Native American's lifestyles were not one of peace and harmony with nature before white man got here. They were steady killing each other off and their "footprint" on the natural resources was light because they moved around enough so the land could heal up from the damage they did.
They often starved to death because of their cultural refusal to "lay by" more than the minimum amount of supplies. Average life spans were below 40 years.

While they were killing each other, white folks were killing each other, too. Plus there was quite a bit of whites killing Indians and Indians killing white folks.

Many tribes thought farming was silly and attempts to get the hunter/gatherers to farm failed.

Around here the Indians were given the "choice" to get on a Res in Arkansas or assimilate. Most were eager to learn white man's ways and chose to assimilate.

But now that the government is throwing money at the Native Americans, everyone is letting their hair grow and pretending to be Native Americans. In the 2000 census, 40% claimed to be Native American and 4% claimed to be two or more races. That's BS. There isn't a single person in the whole county that can honestly claim to be 100% Native American. But they pretend to be. Most are 25% or less.

I don't have a problem with them preserving their heritage. But if they are 25% NA and 25% French and 25% Irish and 25% Finnish, how about learning the cultures of each of our ancestors? But most ignore their background and only attend NA Pow wows.

The treaties were designed to allow the NA to preserve their lifestyles. Around here they were given the rights to fish without restriction. So, now the Michigan sports fishermen pay the MDNR to operate fish hatcheries and restock the Great Lakes. Then the NA fishermen, in their commercial boats with gill-nets (illegal for everyone else) haul in tons of fish to sell. That's far from the intent.

Around the time of the Comstock pact, Michigan was starting state-funded elementary schools. So, the treaty gave the Indian children access to free education. But in the 1970s, a liberal judge determined that meant any education was to be free. So Native students can attend college for free, paid for by the taxpayers of Michigan. Also, far from the original intent. 
Please don't give me that old saw about how we or I took their land so now I owe them anything. Most of these folks are more European than Native and I didn't take anybody's land. 

But, they have been able to use our government to their advantage. In the late 1970s, the local tribe got a grant to build 100 houses on tribal land, free money. But after the houses were built, they didn't give the houses to the needy families. They formed a Housing Association and rented the houses to themselves. But since few people that lived on tribal lands worked, the Housing Association applied to be a Low Income Housing provider. They rented the houses (to themselves) for $600 a month, the tenant pays $60 and the federal government provides a $540 monthly subsidy for each house that the government paid for in the first place. It is not hard to believe that the tribe has increased it's housing base to nearly 600 homes. The tribal Casino provides jobs, but the tribe has decided to keep the wages low so the government rental subsidy stays large.

The local public school system closed down an elementary school that wasn't needed. The tribe bought it for a dollar, to turn it into a day care center. But as soon as they took it over, they applied for a $333,000 annual grant from Dept of Interior to provide education for disadvantaged NA children. Then they teamed up with a University to get student teachers. They made this school a Charter School and therefore became eligible for the $6000 per student state of Michigan funding, equal to what the public schools get. So they drain students from the public system and operate on a large budget from state and federal funds. None of the nearly $1,000,000 daily casino income has to go to educating their children.

Because they expect their roads to be snowplowed, the city fire department respond to emergencies, etc, while not paying any property taxes, an agreement was hatched. The tribe agreed to pay 2% of the PROFIT from the slot machines in lieu of taxes. However, they get to throw this money at just the things they chose. They updated the Town Hall with new windows and insulation with this 2% money and asked the township if they could hold their monthly meetings there for free, forever. They gave the local University money to update it's athletic center, but requested they change the name to Taffy Abel, a Native American hockey player, plus allow all tribal members free access to the pool, gym, hockey ice, weight room, etc for the next 40 years, while everyone else has to pay.

They had electricity installed at a rustic park with this 2% money, then insisted they be allowed to hold their PowWow there, without charge, forever.

Native Americans are predisposed to problems with alcohol. Like their Asian ancestors, their livers metabolize alcohol very slowly.

Rent the movies "Black Robe" and "Smoke Signals"


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Geronimo had the best policy toward whites, "never send them away smiling"!


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

The native Americans in this part of the country have learned a lot. They can lawyer up so fast it would make your head spin. They also have a war chest of funds to hire the best and keep it in the courts for decades if they want.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

haypoint said:


> But now that the government is throwing money at the Native Americans, everyone is letting their hair grow and pretending to be Native Americans. In the 2000 census, 40% claimed to be Native American and 4% claimed to be two or more races. That's BS. There isn't a single person in the whole county that can honestly claim to be 100% Native American. But they pretend to be. Most are 25% or less.


I find it hard to believe their aren't ANY 100% Native Americans. Alot of them stay with their own on the reservations and see it villified to breed with white man. True, MOST Natives are probably 25% or less but if they want to celebrate and live their NA heritage and not their others thats on them.

The welfare to the Native Americans is one that I personally don't have a HUGE problem with. We signed treaties with them way back in the day and we need to stand by those treaties. The problem is that they have learned to play the system BUT whitemen have too. The non-native americans playing the system put a MUCH bigger burden on the system than Native American's do. 

If we get rid of the "welfare system" and just honor our treaties we will be golden. The amounts of money spent on Native American welfare is just a small percentage of all welfare spent in this country. If that was the only welfare spent our taxes would be at least 50% less than they are now. I'd be a happy man


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

Oldcountryboy said:


> Upyourslady, I got a question for you?
> 
> If a invading foreign people came over and took over your land, made you change your lifestyle, killed many, many family members to make you change your lifestyle, took all your food away, placed you on the sorryest peice of ground that wont grow anything, then run you off again cause their happen to be Gold or Oil on it, intentionally infected your people with deseased blankets to kill off as many of your people as possible, make you speak their language and not your own, make you worship their god or die if you don't, ship family members off to Europe to become slaves, and then after all of that, not once the new government even apologizes for all it's crudness it has done for the last 200 years to your people.
> 
> ...


Don't cry to me...I am African American, you still have land and a language.


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

blooba said:


> I find it hard to believe their aren't ANY 100% Native Americans.


http://www.native-languages.org/languages.htm#alpha

Above link contains a list of ALL recognized indian tribes in North America. I believe there is a link contained that also shows the indian tribes in Canada.

Either none of them are Native Americans or all of them are Native Americans.

The reason is that America was not even identified until 1492. These tribes most probably predate 1492. A Native American is one who was born in America. If one is born in America then he/she is a part of America. That would be 100% of the man/woman and not a portion of that man/woman or the percentage that one is of original extraction compared to immigrant extraction. The distinction is used in a prejudicial manner on both sides (should there happen to be any side at all).

YOU might choose to be in America while I might choose to be in the Louisiana Purchase. We could be standing next to each other while our locations are a world (or at least 200 years) apart.


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

Oh my!! I sure did open a can of worms didn't I? I never meant to turn this thread into one of hate, I was just hoping that my perspective of living as a white on an Indian reservation would provide a different insight! Here on the White Earth Reservation we live in harmony. Tribal members own businesses. Whites shop there. They have a huge casino, and that's fine. I never go there because that's not my thing, but it does provide jobs for both whites and Indians. We work together, worship together, live together, whites even go to Pow-Wows. Many times when I had car troubles on the road, a tribal member would help me. One time the oil cap on my car developed a big crack and there was oil spilling out everywhere. Smoke was coming out of from under the hood. A young Ojibwe fellow came to help me and stuck in a beautiful deerskin glove as a temporary oil cap, much to my dismay! I told him I owe him a pair of deerskin gloves, but he said he had "lots of pairs" and I thanked him profusely and never forgot his kindness. Many times my hubby and I have helped tribe members with car troubles and given them rides to wherever. Sure, there's a few folks even here, who have chips on their shoulders and are basically unhappy about the white-Indian relationships. But by far the majority of us all pretty much respect each other and know that what was in the past was long ago and a different time in history...., a very dark and hateful chapter in history. 

As I mentioned, I am of Polish heritage. During WWII many of my relatives were killed when the Germans bombed Krakow and Warsaw. Do I hate the Germans? No. Also during WWII we were at war with "the Japs". Fast forward to today: almost half of us are driving Japanese cars. Our country had a Civil War where north and south hated each other. Although there are some remnants of this hatred even today, that's forgotten and just remembered as a bad page in American history. And as vickiesmom pointed out, the way blacks were treated before the Civil Rights Movement was terrible! We are still working on race relations today. Lest anyone here think I don't know anything about blacks, let me tell you that I grew up in northern IN just outside of Chicago. I lived in a black neighborhood. The grade school in my neighborhood was 90% black. The high school I went to was about 70% black. This was back in the early 1960's. In my neighborhood you were either one of two things - you were either black or Polish - and the Poles were in the minority. We Polish were always made out to be "dumb" and even today I am sure you have all heard Polack Jokes. 

In today's America everyone has an opportunity to be something. We have a (mostly) black President. There are black congressmen. Black businessmen. Doctors, lawyers, professors etc. There are Native American politicians. There are wealthy Native Americans. There are Native American businessmen. Ever hear of Winona LaDuke? Check out her business on the web @ Native Harvest. She has written numerous excellent books on Native American heritage and the whole westward expansion thing. She is also a Harvard grad, and lives here on the White Earth. Any group of people, any minority, any American *citizen* who claims he or she doesn't have opportunity in this country and has to be "stuck" in poverty, a ghetto, a reservation, or a life of drugs and crime, is just plain wrong. Some may have more ambition than others, but we all have opportunities. Today's kids in school seem to take more time texting and bullying than learning and I fear for our future kids. I also fear where this country is going for ALL of us! Our march to socialism is a trend that will affect every one of us and our personal opportunities. 

If I have offended anyone on this thread I deeply apologize. I sometimes feel that I straddle both sides of the fence living on a reservation by choice, and also with my upbringing living in a black neighborhood. I can certainly understand racial oppression. Right now I am very happy living where I am, enjoying life on my homestead. And I really enjoy this forum, too. Lots of wisdom here. Lots of good folks. Lots of not-so-good folks, too. But hey - isn't that what diversity is all about?


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

vickiesmom said:


> Is that why we are here in the first place, aintlifegrand....white folks work ethic was bred out of you white folks so you needed us and the Hispanics to do the work? At least someone has explained it! LOL!!!!


It has been bred out of each generation a little more with the entitlement mentality regardless of color...people all want more and more fopr less and less..generational welfare perpetuates this...


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

I think it's strange that hispanics don't always realize that they are American Indians and that they were forced hundreds of years ago to learn Spanish or else their kids would be killed/abused therefore they also intermarried the Spanish and don't always consider their culture to be part Native American. I know some of them do consider themselves Natives though but not many.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

Upnorthlady- actually this is my fault. I was just curious what Native Am ericans want their legacy to be. Blacks can brag about MLK, Malcolm X, Obama...I just do not see them investing their money into the same things, and trust me, they get more than we do. Granted, there are ghettos like there are reservations, but for the most part, I really think we (blacks) have done far better considering our beginnings here in America.


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

Oh, that's ok vickiesmom..........it's been an interesting thread, even though it evoked a lot of emotion. I'm thinking maybe I should just stick to playing piano and accordion at the nursing homes and tending to my veggie garden and not commenting on general chat! Ha!


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Upnorthlady, I thought your posts were informative and interesting.

.


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## LonelyNorthwind (Mar 6, 2010)

Whew! After going through this thread I'm almost afraid to add my two cents, but I'm hard to find so I think it's safe.

For those who think the white world quit taking from the natives hundreds of years ago--think again. It's still going on in Alaska.
My own friends are some of those who were taken from their homes and villiages as children and shipped off to white man's boarding schools to beat the savage out of them and teach them "Christian" values. In fact the "Institute" where they housed these children here in Wrangell was finally torn down just a few years ago because it was full of asbestos. (it's been vacant for many years tho). This institute was 5 miles from town, the native children were not allowed EVER to go into the town and mix with the white kids. Many of them never saw their families or their homes again. It was just a few years back the Elks Club here started allowing Alaska Natives in the door (although why any of them would want to after being treated that way is beyond me). 

Just last night I watched as my grandchildren, whose father is Tlingit, danced for the elders in their ceremonial costumes. The occassion was yet another meeting to figure out a way to force the government to release to the local natives that land which was promised them when Alaska became a state.

My sweetie's mother, who is full blood Aleut was one of the hundreds who were taken from their villiages during WWII and "interned" on the beaches of Southeast Alaska with nothing but an old abandoned cannery for shelter with no heat, bathrooms, food or medicine for the duration of the war. They were just dumped here and left. She lost 6 brothers and sisters during that time. It was so horrible she still won't speak of it except in short matter-of-fact responses. She's in her 90's now and was never to see her home in St. George again. During the time of year to harvest the sea otters the government forced the men to return to the Pribalofs and hunt the otters for the government, leaving the women and children completely helpless without them. When they'd harvested all the otters the government wanted, they returned them to the "death" camps. When the war was over they were barged back to their homeland to find that the US soldiers had destroyed their entire towns. All the houses ransacked and burned, nothing left but the rubble. It wasn't until 1987 that our government finally re-built their beautiful Russian Orthodox church the soldiers destroyed. Oh, it goes on and on. The point is, "we" haven't changed one bit. They never were compensated for either the suffering or the loss of their homes.

And I gotta tell you, these are the most gentle, hororable people you will ever know. You couldn't get one of them to tell a lie or take something that didn't belong to them for the world. Their children, elders and ancestors are the most important beings on earth to them, family gatherings can number in the hundreds with laughter all around. And the most amazing thing to me is that they don't carry a grudge.

James Michner touched on what we whites have done to them in his book "Alaska".

The story of the treatment of the Aleuts is well written in a book called "When the Wind Was a River". 

Another good Alaska read that follows one young man ripped from his home as a youth is called "The Frozen Lady" by Susan Arnout.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

GrammasCabin said:


> For those who think the white world quit taking from the natives hundreds of years ago--think again. It's still going on in Alaska. *My own friends are some of those who were taken from their homes and villiages as children and shipped off to white man's boarding schools to beat the savage out of them and teach them "Christian" values*.


I can vouch for this too GrammasCabin. During the 50's when I was living in towns along the north coast (Bella Coola, Ocean Falls, Prince Rupert, Kitimat and Terrace) there were no native kids in my schools. They had all been removed from their villages and the towns and sent away to Catholic boarding schools in the northern interior. It wasn't until later in the mid-60's that we started seeing them rejoining their coastal villages/towns/families and coming to our schools. I have native friends my age who are from that area who have only just recently received government compensation ($25,000 each - not much, eh?) and apologies for the way they were treated during the 50's and early 60's. It is very little compensation for some of them who lost family members and those who have lasting emotional scars from the physical and mental abuses they suffered, that they'll never recover from.

.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

naturelover said:


> I can vouch for this too GrammasCabin. During the 50's when I was living in towns along the north coast (Bella Coola, Ocean Falls, Prince Rupert, Kitimat and Terrace) there were no native kids in my schools. They had all been removed from their villages and the towns and sent away to Catholic boarding schools in the northern interior. It wasn't until later in the mid-60's that we started seeing them rejoining their coastal villages/towns/families and coming to our schools. I have native friends my age who are from that area who have only just recently received government compensation ($25,000 each - not much, eh?) and apologies for the way they were treated during the 50's and early 60's. It is very little compensation for some of them who lost family members and those who have lasting emotional scars from the physical and mental abuses they suffered, that they'll never recover from.
> 
> .


I can say the same thing about the Irish Immigrants (my heritage) to this country in the mid 1800's. We all have "suffered" That's what great about America. You deal with and then move on.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

We are not going to get into what whites took from this one or that one...because let us be quite honest, that is the nature of the beast. My concern is at the end of the day, what do you as a people have to look back on about what YOU did to overcome what whites have done. If your entire legacy is money given for casinos, and money given for land and money given for this or that BY the same whites you fought one hundred plus years ago...there is a problem. If your greatest Native Americans are chiefs who fought white people over a hundred years ago, there is a problem. If the leaders of your tribes look more like the people you fought than the people yoou are related to, there is a problem. 

While whites might be against blacks receiving reparations for their ancestors hardships, they cannot say that we haven't made great gains on the little bit that we do have, and please no one come out of the woods talking about welfare, because there are more whites on welfare than blacks, and if any of you ever had to live on it, you would know it is a joke to even COMPARE it to the money the tribes get.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

A brief history lesson, set to music. 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTmvrHoyMZ8[/ame]


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

vickiesmom said:


> and please no one come out of the woods talking about welfare, because there are more whites on welfare than blacks, and if any of you ever had to live on it, you would know it is a joke to even COMPARE it to the money the tribes get.


Well there are more total white on welfare BUT percentage wise there are more blacks.
61% of people on welfare are white
33% is identified as black

12% of the population as a whole are black
79% are white 

See the difference?


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

blooba said:


> I can say the same thing about the Irish Immigrants (my heritage) to this country in the mid 1800's. We all have "suffered" That's what great about America. You deal with and then move on.


What? They were isolated and put in the equivalent of concentration camps, and the children removed from families and put in boarding schools where they were beaten? I didn't know that had happened to the Irish when they came to America, this is certainly news to me. I don't see how that makes America great either.

.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

Which just shows there is something really screwed up with hiring practices and availabilities for education in the black community. Am I saying it is the whites fault, not necessarily...I am from Kwame Kilpatrick country so I am all too aware of corrunption from within, however, taking whites out of the mix, and subtracting welfare...blacks are oing FAR and away better than Native Americans with little government offerings. My point being that welfare is not a handout for blacks, unlike the handouts for and solely for Native Americans...if we got the money they are given...PHEW! We could knock down a little something with that. lol! I guarantee there would be no need for welfare if there would be reparations for blacks in the magnitude that Native Americans get. We have a history of making something out of nothing. My father had an 8th grade education, worked in the minesw, went into the military, retired from Darling and Co. after 30 years, owned his own home, etc. Oh yeah, we know what to do with minimal.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

naturelover said:


> What? They were isolated and put in the equivalent of concentration camps, and the children removed from families and put in boarding schools where they were beaten? I didn't know that had happened to the Irish when they came to America, this is certainly news to me. I don't see how that makes America great either.
> 
> .


You should do some research then.
http://www.sunflower.com/~caitlin/Immigration.html


> Newspapers ads for employment would end with "No Irish need apply." and restaurants and hotels would display signs saying "No Irish permitted in this establishment."


What makes America great is that people can still overcome the discrimination and prosper no matter what!!!!


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Blooba, I thought you were stating that the Irish had been treated the same way as the American Natives.

Yes, I already knew about all that other stuff. The exact same things happened to the Chinese who came to North America as what happened to the Irish, except the Chinese got paid even less and their lives were valued less than the Irish. The railroads were built by the "micks" and "******", as they were called, 2/3rds of the workers being Chinese and the other 1/3rd being Irish and *******.

From your link: 


> "In 1851-1852, railroad contractors in New York advertised for workers and promised good pay. When mostly Irish applied, the pay was lowered to fifty-five cents a day. When the workers protested, the militia was called in to force the men to accept."
> Many of the Irish reacted to the discrimination by deliberately getting rid of their accents, changing their names and even abandoning Catholicism. Others left to go work on the railroads, canals and in the mines where jobs were to be had but where they were also discriminated against and forced to work for lower wages and in harsher conditions then other workers were expected to accept.


It is said that for every 3 miles or railroad track that was laid, a Chinese person paid for it with his life.

.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

Well then where's my reparations? And the chinese.

I don't mind giving the Indians what we do but everyone has gone through it. It was alot worse then that site made it out to be too.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nothing in this world is all one way or all the other.
In recent years, we've heard how the native children were hauled away from their families and taught the white man's ways against their will. I'm sure that is true.

But, I also know that many tribes willingly sent their children off for education and training. They understood their world was changing and they wanted their children to be able to adapt to this new world. 

Locally, it was the whites that didn't want to convert the natives, but the tribal chiefs got the ball rolling. 
http://www.anglican.ca/rs/history/schools/shingwauk.htm#

Reparations? You've got to be kidding me.

If whites profitted so much by slavery, the states that had that advantage would be the richest. Right? You know those rich states like Mississippi, Alabama, Georga. LOL

Whites fought battles over control of the US. The French took from the Natives. English took from the French and Natives. Back and forth it weent. If the school yard bully took your baseball, it became his unless you were able to take it back. Years later, do you think the bully owes you the value of the ball, plus 1000% inflation? Not going to happen.

Prior to white man's "invasion", most natives died of natural causes at 40 years old and no one could smelt iron. I think given a choice most natives are willing to adopt this culture with it's advances in medicines, transportation, etc rather than go back to their primitave ways of only 200 uears ago.

If the French and English hadn't conqured them, someone would have.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

haypoint said:


> I think given a choice most natives are willing to adopt this culture with it's advances in medicines, transportation, etc rather than go back to their primitave ways of only 200 uears ago.


I think so too. They're all going cyber now. 

Lists most of their websites by nation: http://www.firstnationsseeker.ca/

.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

(If whites profitted so much by slavery, the states that had that advantage would be the richest. Right? You know those rich states like Mississippi, Alabama, Georga. LOL)

Your history is slipping. The south and north profitted from the work done by my ancestors. What happened afterwards to the wealth is the responsibility of Your ancestors. The whites in Washington decided that the rebel states would have to pay for the treason...that had nothing to do with us, we had no power. Yes, reparations. Jews have received theirs, Japanese have received theirs, Natives have a faucet, it is only fair that blacks are at least offered.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

vickiesmom said:


> (If whites profitted so much by slavery, the states that had that advantage would be the richest. Right? You know those rich states like Mississippi, Alabama, Georga. LOL)
> 
> Your history is slipping. The south and north profitted from the work done by my ancestors. What happened afterwards to the wealth is the responsibility of Your ancestors. The whites in Washington decided that the rebel states would have to pay for the treason...that had nothing to do with us, we had no power. Yes, reparations. Jews have received theirs, Japanese have received theirs, Natives have a faucet, it is only fair that blacks are at least offered.


Where's the Irish's? Look it wasn't you that was forced into slavery and if you don't like your ancestors getting a free ride to the United States so much that you want paid to live here, I know a few countries in Africa that would love to have you and your family back.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

You are so ignorant. The Irish were (with some education, which I am guessing your clan missed) able to assimilate into the white population. If you knew anything about MY race, you would also know there is a deep divide between American blacks and African blacks. Nothing that can't be repaired, but there is a divide. Since you know so much about Africa, I am sure they wouldn't turn your Irish self away. Ireland was a dumping ground of sorts for undersirables, slaves, convicts...which did your family belong to???


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

vickiesmom said:


> You are so ignorant. The Irish were (with some education, which I am guessing your clan missed) able to assimilate into the white population. If you knew anything about MY race, you would also know there is a deep divide between American blacks and African blacks. Nothing that can't be repaired, but there is a divide. Since you know so much about Africa, I am sure they wouldn't turn your Irish self away. Ireland was a dumping ground of sorts for undersirables, slaves, convicts...which did your family belong to???


Dunno who my family came from but I believe they were Native Irish.

So which are you American black or African black?
The slaves were African. I would think your an American black so why do you think you should get paid for the African blacks?

Look, I'm Irish-American
Your African-American
we're all Americans so by you saying your black or by me saying i'm white is racist right there so just admit that your just a plain ol' American just like the rest of us and lets go on with our lives.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

Actually you are wrong again. Slavery was a transitional period, where African Blacks evolved into American blacks. Their history and our history are nothing alike...so actually you could (if you had to ) call us an entirely different breed, due to the mixing of white and Native blood within our own. We have no language at the moment, but that is changing, and i do not mean ebonics. In anothing cause for reparations, WE were never asked if we WANTED to remain in America...we were GIVEN American citizenship because our heritage was taken from us. There was a thought to give us land in the carribean, but the thought was, would America really want to risk having formerly enslaved blacks ruling a country which might stir up a revolution and come back at 'em.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

vickiesmom said:


> Actually you are wrong again. Slavery was a transitional period, where African Blacks evolved into American blacks. Their history and our history are nothing alike...so actually you could (if you had to ) call us an entirely different breed, due to the mixing of white and Native blood within our own. We have no language at the moment, but that is changing, and i do not mean ebonics. In anothing cause for reparations, WE were never asked if we WANTED to remain in America...we were GIVEN American citizenship because our heritage was taken from us. There was a thought to give us land in the carribean, but the thought was, would America really want to risk having formerly enslaved blacks ruling a country which might stir up a revolution and come back at 'em.


Well if you don't wanna remain in the US I did some research for ya. http://www.globalimmigrationsa.co.za/#inbound

Nelson Mandela would love to have you as a citizen.


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

Aintlifegrand said:


> It has been bred out of each generation a little more with the entitlement mentality regardless of color...people all want more and more fopr less and less..generational welfare perpetuates this...



i respectfully disagree. i dont think its the work ethic thats the problem..i think it is the rising prices of EVERYTHING due to greedy politcians and big businesses. i can work 50 plus hours at my job and still barely make ends meet. many people find themselves working longer hours just to keep their head barely above water. people are tired of working hard and prices rise..security is always just out of reach.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

lilmizlayla said:


> i respectfully disagree. i dont think its the work ethic thats the problem..i think it is the rising prices of EVERYTHING due to greedy politcians and big businesses. i can work 50 plus hours at my job and still barely make ends meet. many people find themselves working longer hours just to keep their head barely above water. people are tired of working hard and prices rise..security is always just out of reach.


Someones gotta pay those taxes to give to the welfare recipients. Just remember 55% of your income goes to taxes.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

blooba said:


> Well there are more total white on welfare BUT percentage wise there are more blacks.
> 61% of people on welfare are white
> 33% is identified as black
> 
> ...


The difference is that when (as an example) someone is half or a quarter black and the rest of their heritage is white, they are viewed as being black because (usually) their skin is darker than most whites. They are not "white" enough in appearance for other whites to accept them as such. 

In the old south, they used to categorize people to the enth degree of of blackness. They had terms for the varying levels of African-American blood that was possessed...Mulatto, Quadroon and Octaroon are a few examples. I remember watching 20/20 as a kid and I saw this seemingly white woman from Louisiana (I think) complaining because her driver's license listed her as a black woman because she possessed a minute amount of black blood in her family history.

The welfare numbers would likely be different if people who were actually more white than black were counted as white, which is the majority of their heritage.


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

blooba said:


> Well if you don't wanna remain in the US I did some research for ya. http://www.globalimmigrationsa.co.za/#inbound
> 
> Nelson Mandela would love to have you as a citizen.




That isnt fair..really. i was just at an african american museum in harpers ferry yesturday. they had an old ad that was published in the early 1800's for a slave...a nine year old little girl. it hits home as to all they suffered and endured. 

I cannot IMAGINE!! i have daughters and just the thought of my children being bought and sold and used as property.... *shakes head*.....heartbreaking that the human race could do that to one another.

yes..we owe them. However nothing can take back what we have stolen from them. Their families..children....their whole life spent in slavery.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

TheMartianChick said:


> The difference is that when (as an example) someone is half or a quarter black and the rest of their heritage is white, they are viewed as being black because (usually) their skin is darker than most whites. They are not "white" enough in appearance for other whites to accept them as such.
> 
> In the old south, they used to categorize people to the enth degree of of blackness. They had terms for the varying levels of African-American blood that was possessed...Mulatto, Quadroon and Octaroon are a few examples. I remember watching 20/20 as a kid and I saw this seemingly white woman from Louisiana (I think) complaining because her driver's license listed her as a black woman because she possessed a minute amount of black blood in her family history.
> 
> The welfare numbers would likely be different if people who were actually more white than black were counted as white, which is the majority of their heritage.


Yea, the catagorization maybe messed up but they are both caculated using the same method so that's no excuse.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

lilmizlayla said:


> That isnt fair..really. i was just at an african american museum in harpers ferry yesturday. they had an old ad that was published in the early 1800's for a slave...a nine year old little girl. it hits home as to all they suffered and endured.
> 
> I cannot IMAGINE!! i have daughters and just the thought of my children being bought and sold and used as property.... *shakes head*.....heartbreaking that the human race could do that to one another.
> 
> yes..we owe them. However nothing can take back what we have stolen from them. Their families..children....their whole life spent in slavery.



My ancestors owned 2,000 acres in Texas, does that mean I still own it?

I mean the current owners of that land owe me, don't they?


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

lilmizlayla said:


> That isnt fair..really. i was just at an african american museum in harpers ferry yesturday. they had an old ad that was published in the early 1800's for a slave...a nine year old little girl. it hits home as to all they suffered and endured.
> 
> I cannot IMAGINE!! i have daughters and just the thought of my children being bought and sold and used as property.... *shakes head*.....heartbreaking that the human race could do that to one another.
> 
> ...


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

blooba said:


> My ancestors owned 2,000 acres in Texas, does that mean I still own it?
> 
> I mean the current owners of that land owe me, don't they?


 Your ancestors bought the land and either improved it with structures, crops, or by clearing it... Or maybe they just held onto it until it became more valuable. When they chose to sell it, your family profited from the sale and walked away with some money. The money could be reinvested in more land or banked for a rainy day.

With slaves, they were forced to work on land that was not owned by them. They had no choice as to how the land was managed...They had no right to be free because they themselves were deemed to be possessions... They had no rights that had to be respected by anyone! When they died, they couldn't improve the quality of life for their offspring because they had no way to "will" anything to them. That is one of the key points in regards to reparations. There was no way to ever make anything better for the next generation while one was still a slave.

I was raised across the street from a family that had owned their and for over a hundred years. As the property was passed down from generation to generation, the land was improved upon. The original farmhouse was enlarged and upgraded over the years, the fields were expanded, a pond was dug, pastures for horses were built, another residence was added so other family members could move in. The property is now quite impressive and they run a thriving business on it. In contrast, slaves worked to add value to a property, but they could never reap any of the benefits of their contributions.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

blooba said:


> Yea, the catagorization maybe messed up but they are both caculated using the same method so that's no excuse.


Actually, they aren't! When a person applies for services like welfare, the forms ask them to state their ethnicity by checking the appropriate box. So for the woman in Louisiana, she would have been able to check the "Caucasian" box. If a bi-racial person checked the same box...It is likely that a social worker would "correct" their form. (By the way, I don't know if this is still the case in Louisiana... It has been a long time since I watched that episode of 20/20!)

I work for a non-profit agency and I am required to have my clients fill out an intake form. There are some questions on there about ethnic background. When a client skips that part of the form inadvertently, I am compelled to fill it in based upon my own visual findings. If someone doesn't appear to be white, I check a box that most closely describes their appearance. Sometimes, the last names give me a clue, too!


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

Are you admitting to welfare fraud or tax fraud? Those questions are voluntary and if the person chooses not to answer you shouldn't be filling in wrong info.

If that's your argument then by basing it on visual cues. You could mistake a black for a white but it's pretty hard to mistake a white as a black. So by using that argument you are essentially saying that there are more blacks on welfare then the stats say.

FYI: many Irish could not afford to pay for the trip to the United States in the middle of the Potato Famine so they signed agreements with people to work for so many years for them to pay for the trip.

Also, my ancestors property was repossessed due to back taxes since they couldn't find any buyers in time.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

My brother did family research. He found out that one of our ancestors had been an Irish indentured immigrant. What was his job? He was a prizewinning boxer and did that to pay off his debts then he went on to have 12 kids! We have managed to track our family tree down to one of the 12 kids. The problem is we don't know what happened to the 11 other kids or if they all died which is very possible back then. That's why people had lots of kids so if one or two or three died..there were others to fill up the holes left by the dead kids.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

In the 1870 census, in my township, the catagory of race was shown as W, I and HB. Then the letters HB were crossed out and either W or I put in its place.
At that time the local population saw the races as white, indian and halfbreed. But it looks like the census wanted an "eather or" in the race catagory.
Since most local residents are listing themselve as Native Americans (single race) when they have 1/4 or 1/8 Native American and 3/4 or 7/8 French or English, it seems we haven't progressed very far.

Slavery is awful. Selling another human is sinful. But this is a complex subject thsat we could talk about for years and still not cover the subject. 
Just as many folks believe that today's big farmer is cruel to his livestock and the truth is that those animals are very well cared for isn't accepted. There were slave owners that treated their slaves poorly, just as there were plantation owners that treated their workers as family. The difference between slavery and the lives of sharecroppers, workers in company owned mining towns isn't as great as you might want to believe. When we read of the poor living conditions that the slaves were often subjected to, are we thinking of our current living conditions or do we take a more realistic view of the farmers across this nation that had dirt floors, no running water and subsisted on cabbage for months that were not slaves? 
There are stories of sexual abuse, many real, but such emotionally charged topics loom larger than their actual incidence. Sort of like stories about rape in prisons. 
Slavery exists today in, of all places, Africa!
I wasn't a slave, nor were my parents or grandparents. I've never owned a slave, neither have any of my ancestors. While many white people were slaves, too, there are no slaves to pay reperations to.
Dr. Laura has a book out "Bad Childhood, good life" It is about getting over your troubles and difficulties as a child and making it on your own, without the crutch of a tough childhood. Perhaps this same idea could be used by folks that expect special treatment based on what someone's great grandfather did or didn't do. 

When one person reads about a 9 year old female slave, they imagine that she was subject of a lifetime of abuse. Often times that was not the case. Some Arfican children worked and played with the white children. 

I'm not saying it was all peaches and cream, but to hold onto the false belief that all were abused or starved or beaten, is fiction.


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## fordson major (Jul 12, 2003)

Oldcountryboy said:


> Upyourslady, I got a question for you?
> 
> If a invading foreign people came over and took over your land, made you change your lifestyle, killed many, many family members to make you change your lifestyle, took all your food away, placed you on the sorryest peice of ground that wont grow anything, then run you off again cause their happen to be Gold or Oil on it, intentionally infected your people with deseased blankets to kill off as many of your people as possible, make you speak their language and not your own, make you worship their god or die if you don't, ship family members off to Europe to become slaves, and then after all of that, not once the new government even apologizes for all it's crudness it has done for the last 200 years to your people.
> 
> ...


well rh, i am scottish and irish heritage, you describe of my ancestors treatment well! my people were sent over seas on boats not fit for animals in wretched conditions think we are working on a thousand years and more in some cases.


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