# 10 states currently seeking to secede!



## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Montana, Indiana, Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Florida, North Carolina, and Texas have filed petitions to be allowed to 'peacefully withdraw from the United States of America'. If you live in one of these states and support this, then go and sign the petition so they get enough signatures to be considered. Here is the link for Texas and it is easy to find the other states from here.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pe...ca-and-create-its-own-new-government/BmdWCP8B


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

Let them go. 

Of course the US will quickly shut down any and all military bases, factories and jobs they have there. There will be no federal dollars for infrastructure repairs, disaster relief or welfare. They can raise their own military now, too. 

Considering how poor some of these states already are, I'm sure they'll do a bang up job of showing the US how it's done. NOT.


This is just an temper tantrum from so-called Patriots who didn't get their way last Tuesday. Since God hasn't struck Obama dead and moving to Canada would require too much paperwork, they're being juvenile and doing a petition. It's going no where and just making them look like bratty fools.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

I'm guessing you are a liberal.


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

TxMex said:


> I'm guessing you are a liberal.


Not really. I can spot a temper tantrum a mile away and I have a brain to know that it's not going to go anywhere.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> Let them go.
> 
> Of course the US will quickly shut down any and all military bases, factories and jobs they have there. There will be no federal dollars for infrastructure repairs, disaster relief or welfare. They can raise their own military now, too..


 depends if secession is peaceful or not. IF it is peaceful there will be documents stating who gets what in gear, but all real property will immediately revert to the respective states (like what happened in yugoslavia). outside of the penitentiary system the fed doesn't have any factories and the pen factories only make office furniture & supplies. the federal dollars COME from the people in the states. it would affect some states more than others. raising their own militaries wouldn't be all that difficult. they all have national guard, regular military reserve & some have state guards plus under a peaceful secession all their active duty personnel that want to would return home to the secessionist states. TX for example, if all 300K-360K active military personnel went home to TX and w/ all their guard/reserve & state guard components could field 3-4 ground combat divisions, 3-4 air wings and a small navy of frigates, destroyers, coastal & small patrol vessels possibly even a carrier. not at all the insurmountable effort a lot of people think it to be.




KnowOneSpecial said:


> This is just an temper tantrum from so-called Patriots who didn't get their way last Tuesday. Since God hasn't struck Obama dead and moving to Canada would require too much paperwork, they're being juvenile and doing a petition. It's going no where and just making them look like bratty fools.


just as much as the declaration of independance was a temper tantrum. the real problem here is the attitude of people like yourself who can't see that this is really a warning sign of just how divided our country is and how much we need to try to reach common ground instead of using the force of government to enforce the tyranny of the majority.


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

Pops2 said:


> just as much as the declaration of independance was a temper tantrum. the real problem here is the attitude of people like yourself who can't see that this is really a warning sign of just how divided our country is and how much we need to try to reach common ground instead of using the force of government to enforce the tyranny of the majority.


I still believe it's not going anywhere. And that it's a temper tantrum by so called "patriots" who want things their way and their way only.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I can spot a temper tantrum a mile away and I have a brain to know that it's not going to go anywhere


Many probably said the same thing in 1776


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Many probably said the same thing in 1776


Then REALLY let them go! 

Look at Britian today. I'd say they're doing a lot better than we are in a lot of ways! At least they have single payer health care and no one has to declare bankruptcy because of medical bills. 

In a lot of ways Britian became a better country once they got rid of us!


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> Then REALLY let them go!
> 
> In a lot of ways Britian became a better country once they got rid of us!


then sign the petition, contact your representative & senators and convince them of the validity of letting them go. then help the unionist state get on with becoming a better country.
OR
continue to throw a self righteous fit about someone else's fit and fight to control people while ignoring their opinions, concerns & right and so continue the drive toward violence.


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

I (thankfully) don't live in one of the states and well, since I play by the rules, I can't sign those petitions. 

Face it, Obama won. Your side is just going to have to man up and deal with it. Throwing a temper tantrum does NOTHING toward working together and getting things done. These petitions aren't healing wounds. They're just showing that you guys are acting like children. When you guys say on Obama's first day that you want to make him a one term President and then act like imbiciles, the left notices it. Now that you can't do a single darn thing to get Obama out, you want to keep acting like children. It's doing nothing but shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to 2016. The left doesn't have as much to lose as the right does. And unfortunately the right doesn't even realize it yet.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

there is no rule saying you can't sign the petition and in fact people from other states have signed the petitions.
it's just an excuse for you to continue to throw your fit about someone else's attitude.


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

Pops2 said:


> there is no rule saying you can't sign the petition and in fact people from other states have signed the petitions.
> it's just an excuse for you to continue to throw your fit about someone else's attitude.


I'm not throwing a fit. I say give them what they want.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

then go sign the petitions.


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

Pops2 said:


> then go sign the petitions.


Why should I? If they want it bad enough let them do it all themselves. I'm just not going to fight to keep them in the Union.


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Cool,,, see ya


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

If nothing else, this is sending a message that the other half of this country doesn't like the direction we're headed in and aren't going to tolerate it any longer. This is how revolutions go; first, peaceably, then when the people's peaceful supplications are ignored or rejected, it tends to get more violent if the other half of society is ignored. You say, "its what the majority wanted, to have Obama and this spendthrift government put back in place", but our forefathers warned off the dangers of majority rule. Isn't this why the left fought so hard for the civil right's movement? Isn't this why the left wants amnesty in place so badly (I actually have other thoughts on that...)? Or is it ok for the many to rule over the few when it applies to the libs over the conservs? 
Consider these quotes, which seem to especially apply today.
&#8220;A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.&#8221; Thomas Jefferson

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" Ben Franklin

&#8220;But government in which the majority rule in all cases can not be based on justice, even as far as men understand it.&#8221; Henry David Thoreau

These are the messages being sent by these states. We've gotten far, far from the roots of our nation and are growing into the European style our forefathers came here to escape. Yes, it's time for that peaceful part of the revolution to begin.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Not unlike many Illinoisans tired of being run by the Chicago policies. Votes from the rest of the state really don't count.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> Then REALLY let them go!
> 
> Look at Britian today. I'd say they're doing a lot better than we are in a lot of ways! At least they have single payer health care and no one has to declare bankruptcy because of medical bills.
> 
> In a lot of ways Britian became a better country once they got rid of us!


Your depth of history is breathtaking....they did have a grade above 4th where you come from???


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

zant said:


> Your depth of history is breathtaking....they did have a grade above 4th where you come from???


A health care system that works. Relatively few murders. Lower crime rates. Lower tax rates. Tell me how that's worse than what we have?


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

LOL This comes up in Alaska and nevada from time to time......never seems to get far .
usually in those places its about the Feds owning the VAST magority ofthe land and stiffling growth.


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

It would probably be easier to just wait four years until the next election and try to get an electable candidate to run from the Republican party...


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

Never gonna happen. Fun to dream though.


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> A health care system that works. Relatively few murders. Lower crime rates. Lower tax rates. Tell me how that's worse than what we have?


Illegal to have a knife or to protect your property from someone *inside* your home.

Just sayin'


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Who ever is in charge of the petition in Ms. is keeping it a secret.
Not a single person I know has heard anything about it.
Since Ms. gets more money back from the feds than we pay them it would be stupid to burn that bridge. With over half of the people on some type of govt. benefits we couldn't afford it.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> A health care system that works. Relatively few murders. Lower crime rates. Lower tax rates. Tell me how that's worse than what we have?


* * * *movement towards implementing sharia law in "jolly old England"??? 


Sharia Law Already Devouring UK



Tell us how that's NOT WORSE?!!!


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## puddlejumper007 (Jan 12, 2008)

obama is out to divide and destroy this country, they are playing right into his plan or whoever is directing him...


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> Let them go.
> 
> Of course the US will quickly shut down any and all military bases, factories and jobs they have there. There will be no federal dollars for infrastructure repairs, disaster relief or welfare. They can raise their own military now, too.


You mean the money they get from the states to begin with?


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

From the link above, there are 5,000 + signatures, some of which aren't even from the State of Texas, so how many people are really on board with this?

If only a small percentage of Texans want to secede, will they succeed in their secession?


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## Ana Bluebird (Dec 8, 2002)

oh for pity-sakes, why don't they just pack up and leave like they said. Good laugh though.


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## unregistered65598 (Oct 4, 2010)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> *I (thankfully) don't live in one of the states *and well, since I play by the rules, I can't sign those petitions.
> 
> Face it, Obama won. Your side is just going to have to man up and deal with it. Throwing a temper tantrum does NOTHING toward working together and getting things done. These petitions aren't healing wounds. They're just showing that you guys are acting like children. When you guys say on Obama's first day that you want to make him a one term President and then act like imbiciles, the left notices it. Now that you can't do a single darn thing to get Obama out, you want to keep acting like children. It's doing nothing but shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to 2016. The left doesn't have as much to lose as the right does. And unfortunately the right doesn't even realize it yet.


Well maybe you live in one of these states, five more have been add to this list.

CO
NY
OR
NJ
ND


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> A health care system that works. Relatively few murders. Lower crime rates. Lower tax rates. *Tell me how that's worse than what we have?*



FAR less freedom.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Trying to come to a compromise between conservative values and liberal ideas is like trying to mix oil and water. People are fed up and ----ed off. This last election just really brought it home to a lot of people including me. There are times when compromise is not an option.

Part of the problem is that the Republican party really doesn't encompass conservative ideas and values either. We keep electing Republicans expecting to get a representative with our values and it's not working. They get up on capital hill and then they conduct business as usual! We've had enough! 

Now that it has been proven that elections will be won by the politician offering the most free stuff rather than who will do the right thing for this country....I and many others feel that we have no option but to secede since there is no way to make this situation better.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

TxMex said:


> Trying to come to a compromise between conservative values and liberal ideas is like trying to mix oil and water. People are fed up and ----ed off. This last election just really brought it home to a lot of people including me. There are times when compromise is not an option.
> 
> Part of the problem is that the Republican party really doesn't encompass conservative ideas and values either. We keep electing Republicans expecting to get a representative with our values and it's not working. They get up on capital hill and then they conduct business as usual! We've had enough!
> 
> Now that it has been proven that elections will be won by the politician offering the most free stuff rather than who will do the right thing for this country....I and many others feel that we have no option but to secede since there is no way to make this situation better.


Do you actually think by seceding you will be able to change people from wanting something for nothing?


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## bignugly (Jul 13, 2011)

It doesn't matter where you are from or where you live now, a politician is a politician. They will represent you the same way if you leave the Union or not. Congress has spent more time in-fighting than trying to resolve any issues. I think our Congress is the biggest culprit here by giving too much power to the Executive branch without so way of making sure things are right. By the way, a lot of that power was given to a Republican(Bush) that abused about as bad as anyone. Everyone complains about politicians but the basically the same Congress was re-elected so what is the gripe.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

bignugly said:


> It doesn't matter where you are from or where you live now, a politician is a politician. They will represent you the same way if you leave the Union or not. Congress has spent more time in-fighting than trying to resolve any issues. I think our Congress is the biggest culprit here by giving too much power to the Executive branch without so way of making sure things are right. By the way, a lot of that power was given to a Republican(Bush) that abused about as bad as anyone. Everyone complains about politicians but the basically the same Congress was re-elected so what is the gripe.


Right, they get in congress and give away the farm to get reelected. 1 term and 1 term only, both houses. No big salary or kickbacks. States all get the same dollars per person. Personal income taxes are a set flat rate, no deductions for anyone, all pay the same. Line vote everything brought to the floor, yeh/ney. The will of the people, not by Rep/Dem or lobbyest. No one is owed anything, No special treatment....James


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> Then REALLY let them go!
> 
> Look at Britian today. I'd say they're doing a lot better than we are in a lot of ways! At least they have single payer health care and no one has to declare bankruptcy because of medical bills.
> 
> In a lot of ways Britian became a better country once they got rid of us!


I have several acquaintances living in England... and every one if them are quite dissatisfied with their plight. Not enough food, not enough fuel to heat their homes, never enough money to afford more than a bare subsistence living. They do have health care available to them.... if they can wait long enough.


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Has anyone noticed that those petitions are HOSTED on the White House website? And that you need to create an account (with your name and contact info) to actually sign these petitions? 

Just wondering if anyone who signs these petitions can expect an IRS audit next year or a "misplaced" refund check?

And now that NJ has joined the fray, do you think I can look forward to armies advancing and retreating constantly across my state like they did back during the last revolution?


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I have several acquaintances living in England... and every one if them are quite dissatisfied with their plight. Not enough food, not enough fuel to heat their homes, never enough money to afford more than a bare subsistence living. They do have health care available to them.... if they can wait long enough.


Why are they doing so badly there? 

None of my many, many family members (I'm the only member of my family here) and friends are struggling like that.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

pancho said:


> Do you actually think by seceding you will be able to change people from wanting something for nothing?


No, but hopefully they will all head north ound:


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

"Montana, Indiana, Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Florida, North Carolina, and Texas have filed petitions to be allowed to 'peacefully withdraw from the United States of America'."

<_psst!_> It has been tried. It didn't work out so well.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Tiempo said:


> Why are they doing so badly there?
> 
> None of my many, many family members (I'm the only member of my family here) and friends are struggling like that.


Even the BBC shows some of the discontent there! I have family in the uk and Ireland. No right to defend your self, serious taxes, freedom of movement is dependant on the car you drive. The healthcare system there kinda works for some, waits are long even for life saving procedures(my father in law was just in the hospital in the UK, the stories he has are frightfull!) Just saying!


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> A health care system that works. Relatively few murders. Lower crime rates. Lower tax rates. Tell me how that's worse than what we have?


their healthcare system doesnt "work"... they need to rob their kids to fund it. even with a military a fraction of the size of ours per capita. also if you dig deeper into the folks that really pull strings globally (including taking advantage of our countries military to serve their ends) a good number come from their country. So its outsourced to us. 

As to the rest of the thread. I hate to burst bubbles here, but these petitions arent exactly very telling. not many folks seem to be signing them, and many of the names are on multiple states. 

also to the left leaning folks. Get off the high horse!!!! I didnt hear much about seceding back with bush, but that is simply because of different mentalities. i heard ALL the same type of thoughts though!! including fleeing the country and the fear bush would cancel elections. and all the rest of it. 

Craziest part is everything they would list as bush doing obama ALSO did!!! Plus a bunch of additional idiocy. So acting like the right is being childish and ignorant in light of that is a calling the kettle black to keep in nice. 

cognitive dissonance on both sides is at alarming levels and has been for the bulk of my life atleast. Wake up folks, sure we DO disagree politically but we are being played off eachother. 

Imo the best course of action is left AND right come together and DEMAND accountability (of course most ignore their sides follies or worse never hear from them because our media have nothing in the world to do with informing we all know it look under the veils folks!!) 

secondly STATES RIGHTS!!!! wed ALL have more say in how things go down. Wed be better able to hold elected folks accountable. Wed ALSO be more adaptable as a nation if most things were done locally since some methods will work when others will not. instead of one plan for everyone that takes us all down if it fails. I know I know this falls on deaf ears to most, and most are apathetic even if they agree to some level, so its unlikely to gain weight just yet anyway.... 

I love you all anyway. One last thought. our politicos do NOT need to compromise, most of them dont even work for us anymore!!! 

WE THE PEOPLE need to compromise to clean up house!!! If we dont we will face some hard times eventually. making current issues look tiny.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> Let them go.
> 
> Of course the US will quickly shut down any and all military bases, factories and jobs they have there. There will be no federal dollars for infrastructure repairs, disaster relief or welfare. They can raise their own military now, too.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't call Texas poor. Texas and Louisiana can shut off oil supplies to the government and never turn a hair as the other states and other countries can buy from them and they can ship from their own shores, that is if the government doesn't blockade them.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Tiempo said:


> Why are they doing so badly there?
> 
> None of my many, many family members (I'm the only member of my family here) and friends are struggling like that.


Those I talk to seem to be having trouble finding and maintaining employment... and their "system" seems to leave them somewhat lacking. One gentleman in particular who is a very well educated fellow, (and better than average chess player) works in the field of genetic research when he can find work. In the past 8 or 9 years he has been employed twice for a total of a bit over two years. But due to government funding when these projects are finished he finds himself once again out of work, sometimes homeless and at the mercy of their support system. Others tell me similar tales of their plights and I really have no reason to doubt them. Some have relayed their experiences with their health care system.... and I was absolutely appalled! Of course I was comparing their situations to my own experiences here, with private health insurance and my care being administered immediately as needed.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

JeffreyD said:


> Even the BBC shows some of the discontent there! I have family in the uk and Ireland. No right to defend your self, serious taxes, freedom of movement is dependant on the car you drive. The healthcare system there kinda works for some, waits are long even for life saving procedures(my father in law was just in the hospital in the UK, the stories he has are frightfull!) Just saying!


I'm sorry you FIL had a bad experience, that hasn't been my family's experience at all.

In the past few years my mother has had breast cancer and gall bladder surgery and another cancer scare that thankfully turned out to be something much less serious, my father has a triple bypass and got a new mitral valve (titanium), my grandmother died in February at 96 and had fabulous care in her waning months.

Nobody in my family (well, except my cousin Ian who has done very well for himself indeed) could be considered wealthy, we all come from quite poor very working class roots but all now have pulled themselves up to be solidly middle class..they live comfortable lives wanting for nothing. :shrug:


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## Saffron (May 24, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> then sign the petition, contact your representative & senators and convince them of the validity of letting them go. then help the unionist state get on with becoming a better country.
> OR
> continue to throw a self righteous fit about someone else's fit and fight to control people while ignoring their opinions, concerns & right and so continue the drive toward violence.


Nicely said

I nominate this for POTD


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

If Texas and Louisiana were to secede they would take with them a large portion of the oil and oil refining capability of the United States, as well as a significant portion of the Space programs. If the other states mentioned were to go they would take with them a significant portion of the food growing capability of the US, and would control the majority of the largest navigable river in the country. If the states mentioned were to secede then you would also probably see Calif, Oregon, and Washington form their own country too. Of course that country would self destruct due to their own politics - all takers, no workers. Alaska would probably go it alone or side with Texas, and if Arizona joined Texas, then the very southern part of Calif would probably break away and join too giving the new country Pacific Ocean access through San Diego. It sure would be interesting to see the major cities of the East trying to feed themselves with their food basket cut off, having no fuel, no natural gas, etc. Florida, Ga, and SC might want to secede too.


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## Saffron (May 24, 2006)

silverseeds said:


> their healthcare system doesnt "work"... they need to rob their kids to fund it. even with a military a fraction of the size of ours per capita. also if you dig deeper into the folks that really pull strings globally (including taking advantage of our countries military to serve their ends) a good number come from their country. So its outsourced to us.
> 
> As to the rest of the thread. I hate to burst bubbles here, but these petitions arent exactly very telling. not many folks seem to be signing them, and many of the names are on multiple states.
> 
> ...



:rock::rock::happy: Couldn't find the big thumbs up smilie


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

In fact lets just divide up the land area along the lines of the counties who were Red in the election vs the counties who were Blue in the election. Each can keep it's land area. I would want to live in the Blue areas as they would be very Food and Energy poor.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> Let them go.
> 
> Of course the US will quickly shut down any and all military bases, factories and jobs they have there. There will be no federal dollars for infrastructure repairs, disaster relief or welfare. They can raise their own military now, too.
> 
> ...


This is probably what the Tories were whispering in the 1770's


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

joseph97297 said:


> From the link above, there are 5,000 + signatures, some of which aren't even from the State of Texas, so how many people are really on board with this?
> 
> If only a small percentage of Texans want to secede, will they succeed in their secession?


This whole thing is BS. If the residents of a state want to secede, they need to motivate their governor and legislature. When that happens, things will get interesting. Any states other than Kalifornia take resident actions and put them on a ballot?

The idea itself has merit. Playing on the internet submitting a petition to Obama is a waste of time and energy though.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Melissa said:


> It would probably be easier to just wait four years until the next election and try to get an electable candidate to run from the Republican party...


that might be true if the republican party wasn't part of the problem


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

silverseeds said:


> their healthcare system doesnt "work"... they need to rob their kids to fund it. even with a military a fraction of the size of ours per capita. also if you dig deeper into the folks that really pull strings globally (including taking advantage of our countries military to serve their ends) a good number come from their country. So its outsourced to us.
> 
> As to the rest of the thread. I hate to burst bubbles here, but these petitions arent exactly very telling. not many folks seem to be signing them, and many of the names are on multiple states.
> 
> ...


silverseeds
that was a brilliant, passionate and utterly spot on assesment of the situation. unfortunately that is why it will be generally ignored.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Considering how poor some of these states already are, I'm sure they'll do a bang up job of showing the US how it's done. NOT.


The US, under BO is 16 TRILLION dollars in debt.
Texas has the 15th largest GDP in the world.
The more you talk about this, the more obvious it becomes you don't really *know* a lot about it


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## houndlover (Feb 20, 2009)

Please, we all know about it, it's just that we don't agree. Bolding your font doesn't make your point "more correct".


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

linn said:


> I wouldn't call Texas poor. Texas and Louisiana can shut off oil supplies to the government and never turn a hair as the other states and other countries can buy from them and they can ship from their own shores, that is if the government doesn't blockade them.


i'll go you one better, the fed PREVENTS TX & LA from fully exploiting their oil reserves.
i had an uncle that owned something like 100 wells all over TX, OK & LA. because of fed regulation he wasn't allowed to operate most of them year around. when in operation they are only allowed to pump 10 barrels a day even though they could produce at least 100 barrels a day.
TX & LA already import, refine & ship petroleum products to other countries. imagine how much money their state governments would have available IF they weren't sending it to the fed, & were able to grow their economies by eliminating the fed regs that inhibit it now?


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

houndlover said:


> Please, we all know about it, it's just that we don't agree. Bolding your font doesn't make your point "more correct".


Is that the best argument you can come up with??


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Pops2 said:


> i'll go you one better, the fed PREVENTS TX & LA from fully exploiting their oil reserves.


I'll go you one better.

The FED prevents everything and everyone within their reach from reaching their full potential, period.

Your turn.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The US, under BO is 16 TRILLION dollars in debt.
> Texas has the 15th largest GDP in the world.
> The more you talk about this, the more obvious it becomes you don't really *know* a lot about it


The comments are revealing. Check out who can't conceive of getting along without federal handouts. Texas could do quite well by itself. Texas generates more GDP than Australia, Mexico, Switzerland, Poland, Sweden, Austria, Norway and even Saudi Arabia. Almost as much as Russia.


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## jefferson (Nov 11, 2004)

By golly, we got us a flame war............


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Darren said:


> The comments are revealing. Check out who can't conceive of getting along without federal handouts. Texas could do quite well by itself. Texas generates more GDP than Australia, Mexico, Switzerland, Poland, Sweden, Austria, Norway and even Saudi Arabia. Almost as much as Russia.


It's also bigger than many countries.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Forerunner said:


> I'll go you one better.
> 
> The FED prevents everything and everyone within their reach from reaching their full potential, period.
> 
> Your turn.


man you just threw down 4 aces & a king. looks like i've got to fold.


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## bignugly (Jul 13, 2011)

Darren said:


> The comments are revealing. Check out who can't conceive of getting along without federal handouts. Texas could do quite well by itself. Texas generates more GDP than Australia, Mexico, Switzerland, Poland, Sweden, Austria, Norway and even Saudi Arabia. Almost as much as Russia.


What you say may be true but I think if you take away ALL US military and federal jobs that exists in TX Then add the expense of creating and running your own government with military, postal etc, those GDP numbers would change a little. Not to mention the government subsidies to the oil industry would stop going to TX also.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

JeffreyD said:


> Even the BBC shows some of the discontent there! I have family in the uk and Ireland. No right to defend your self, serious taxes, freedom of movement is dependant on the car you drive. The healthcare system there kinda works for some, waits are long even for life saving procedures(my father in law was just in the hospital in the UK, the stories he has are frightfull!) Just saying!


And it has the most survalence of any country. No thank you.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I think y 'all would find that ten states are not trying to succeed from the Union, there are ten states where individuals have started petitions. Big difference.


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## unregistered65598 (Oct 4, 2010)

vicker said:


> I think y 'all would find that ten states are not trying to succeed from the Union, there are ten states where individuals have started petitions. Big difference.


There are now 18 states with A person starting a petition. That was something DH pointed out today it's not the states petitioning it's a person from each state.


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

I understand its just individuals starting the petition. I "assumed" (yeah I know) that it took 25,000 signatures to get the governing body to pay attention.
Altho,, if peeps from differing states are allowed to also sign the petition,, why bother, it doesn't mean anything.
GH


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## whodunit (Mar 29, 2004)

Just thinking out loud. I don't think that the secessionist states would need their own military. Some are land-locked, so what chances are their they would be attacked by someone other than what remains of the U.S. That doesn't happen if it's a peaceful secession. If attacked by air by a foreign country, missiles or planes have to fly over the U.S.. If attacked by boat, again the U.S. would have to intervene to keep from being drawn into it. Are there not several small countries right now without a military where the U.S. comes to their aid when needed? Trade agreements could be part of providing for protection, especially if the former state has something the U.S. can't live without.

Honestly, while I can't ever see it happen, I am fascinated by the idea. It sounds like a reasonable way to allow each "party" to live in the kind of world they want to live. It would also create a "frontier" again and create opportunity for people to create and build businesses again.


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## stormaq (Oct 26, 2008)

As soon as Oklahoma is on the list. I'll be first in line to sign the petition!!!!!!!!!


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## bjba (Feb 18, 2003)

> Not to mention the government subsidies to the oil industry would stop going to TX also.


 Bigugly

The largest "subsidy" you speak of is the Foreign Tax Credit which is a general tax credit available to all business it is not specific to the oil business. Most if not all other subsidies are in the form of tax breaks. The Texas State Comptroller in 2006 estimated the value of oil industry specific subsidies at 3.7 billion not the 10s of billions decried by many. Reduction of the corporate income tax would alleviate most if not all distress caused by removal of the so called subsidies you mention.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> ...... Patriots who didn't get their way last Tuesday. Since God hasn't struck Obama dead and *moving to Canada would require too much paperwork*, .......


I don't have any other comments, will sit back with interest to observe what happens in the future - but wanted to point out one thing with regard to the above comment.

None of those folks would ever want to move to Canada since everything about Canada is totally the dreaded and fearful antithesis of what they want for themselves and what their ideals are. You just really can't get more opposite than that ..... and Canada wouldn't accept them anyway even if some of them did want to move there, so there would be no point in them doing any kind of paperwork. :shrug:

There isn't really any other country anywhere in the world that would be suitable to the secessionist patriot's ideals, so they have nowhere else to go. Their only option is to stay where they are and try to secede from the union and form something new for themselves.

The thing I'm most curious about is if all those states were successful in seceding from the union and formed one new country, or perhaps several new countries - what would they call the new country or countries? 

.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

It used to be the united States.......of America.

United was not proper. It was descriptive.

Now, I'm sure it's too late. 
The FED will never cooperate until it is replaced.

I fear this whole movement may be another charade to divert energy.


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## Saffron (May 24, 2006)

TxMex said:


> It's also bigger than many countries.


That's what he said!

:banana::banana::banana:

:hysterical::hysterical:
Sorry, I couldn't resist!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

What if some people start a petition to invade another state?
Maybe Texas will invade Louisiana.
Should be easy enough to do.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

It is a charade. BUT, it has people talking. That's a start. Since it does appear to be legal, "When in the course of human events ...", it needs a genuine kickoff which leads to a state government declaring themselves to be an independent nation state. They have that right. Some federal payments like Social Security would continue.

This would be an interesting study to determine how a transition would work. The state would own all the federal property. One question is whether the state would have to compensate the federal government. Since the state would not be subject to Supreme Court decisions, that would have to be negotiated.

I suspect much of the world would be cheering a breakup. The end result could be a completely different government established with the original Constitution and Bill of Rights eliminating any basis the Supreme Court used through the years to justify increased federal involvement such as the Commerce Clause.

It could be a redo. Will it happen? Not likely.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

pancho said:


> What if some people start a petition to invade another state?
> Maybe Texas will invade Louisiana.
> Should be easy enough to do.


well at least then you'd know you had public support as opposed to how things are done now.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

I think raising their own military might be more difficult than some think. Those wanting to join the military tend to be very patriotic toward the US government. Many will probably move out of the succeeded states. The US military would likely pull out anyone willing to move and relocate them.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

akane said:


> I think raising their own military might be more difficult than some think. Those wanting to join the military tend to be very patriotic toward the US government. Many will probably move out of the succeeded states. The US military would likely pull out anyone willing to move and relocate them.


i KNOW a LOT of my TX Marines would go back to TX to help build their military, & i'd be right there with them.


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

I was thinking about this. I dont think it can happen, but lets say it did.

To keep it hypothetical, lets say 5 "red" states secede. Doesnt matter which, in general red states have good levels of farming and mining and the like. In general they have a large percentage in the armed forces. In general they are patriotic. 

But the Us gov, for some reason gives them the pass. So now they are on their own, and lets say the adopt the constitution or something very similar. 

MANY will want to leave these ex states ASAP. No doubt in the world. perhaps even 30-40% or more. At the same time I would expect if they wanted many many more would be willing to go to them if they had the option. 

At which point youd have a nation of independent minded folks who believe their life is their own. 

assuming this all played out in a similar fashion as I laid out, which again this is hypothetical Im not saying I think it could or would... Id actually expect this new country formed out of these five states to excel. they definitely couldnt build a military to rival the Us military imo, but no doubt it would be as strong or stronger then any country of comparable population. 

why wouldnt they excel?? Like I said most red states have more then enough mining and minerals especially if you lump a random five together. Youd have many who want the gov to be a nanny flee, and youd have many who wan to own their own life move in. they wouldnt have the bum trade agreements we do now. their job base would likely be much more assured because of it. being a new naton formed in this modern era, they might at first have to few regs, but being a newly formed nation with inspired engaged populous they would be much more likely to have common sense regs instead. 

honestly I think they would make the US look bad, again assuming it played out similar to what i said... that said it wont happen, but its interesting.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> i KNOW a LOT of my TX Marines would go back to TX to help build their military, & i'd be right there with them.


You'll have to pardon my ignorance as I don't know how it works down there but I'm really curious as to how that would all work out. Are you referring to marines that are presently in service, or to those discharged and no longer in service? If they're in service now, are they in service to USA as opposed to being in service to any specific state? If they're presently in service to USA would they be required to wait until they had fulfilled their term of service to USA before they could be discharged and leave to re-enlist in a seceded state's newly formed military? Would they be able to keep any kind of military pension they might have coming to them - they do get pensions when they're discharged under ordinary conditions, don't they? 

Or are you suggesting that some would desert USA military service to join a newly formed military in a seceded state? In which case I'm assuming they wouldn't get any pension and they would be in trouble and wanted by the law in USA (I'm also assuming desertion or going AWOL is still considered a criminal offense under military law in USA). 

.


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## lonelytree (Feb 28, 2008)

LMAO.. If this happens, if you really think they will care about retirement or pensions? 

Right now I am worried about my retirement!


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

I think the biggest issue is that Id assume any state that breaks off would need to take their populations portion of the national debt. Well besides the fact the feds wont let it happen of course. 

We need a push for true states rights instead. It might actually have a chance. my take anyway.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

houndlover said:


> Please,* we all know about it*, it's just that we don't agree. *Bolding your font* doesn't make your point "more correct".


No, "we" don't all *know* about it, as is made obvious by the comments

*Bolding* doesn't make it less correct either.
It merely* highlights* the* specific* terms and adds emphasis

I don't know why anyone would even* think* it has anything to do with being "correct"


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

silverseeds said:


> I think the biggest issue is that Id assume any state that breaks off would need to take their populations portion of the national debt. Well besides the fact the feds wont let it happen of course.
> 
> We need a push for true states rights instead. It might actually have a chance. my take anyway.


You just said a mouthful.

States rights went out the door the first time they respectively began to accept federal monies. THIS is why the whole notion is a charade. 
The states are on the world radar, now, even if the US "consented".

I've said it before. I'll say it again....

The US was created to reign in, respectively, the States, then the municipalities, and then the people; to reign them in, indebt them to foreign powers, and to bind them.

Go ahead and secede, they may say openly, and shortly a world police force made up of Chinese and Russians at the forefront will be there to collect, absolutely......one state at a time.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Forerunner said:


> States rights went out the door the first time they respectively began to accept federal monies. THIS is why the whole notion is a charade.


Yep. And this is why those 'conservative' governors always cave on issues, regardless of what they say on stage.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Melissa said:


> It would probably be easier to just wait four years until the next election and try to get an electable candidate to run from the Republican party...


Exactly. I think that the "powers that be" in the Republican party are beginning to realize that they need to change a few things, as they are losing too much support. Who knows, perhaps in 4 years there will be a Republican party and candidate people can actually live with.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

The number is up to nineteen states now.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

What happens if all 50 states want to secede?


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I'll wait to see what happens when one does.


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## unregistered65598 (Oct 4, 2010)

Count at 21 now.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

This represents the widespread voter dissatisfaction with the election. I haven't spoken to one person, locally, who wanted the liberals back in power. This is worse than hanging chads people.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

linn said:


> This is an obscene comment. Where do you get off posting something like this?



If you don't like the analogy, perhaps you might explain how this sort of "succession movement" isn't just relatively small number of people using fantasy in an attempt to achieve some sort of short-term imaginary gratification instead of doing the more difficult work of building the relationships necessary to achieve success in a representative republic form of government.

States arenât succeeding.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I bet the IRS began these petitions to help determine who gets audited this year. Hmmm


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Hey people!

Some one already mentioned this, but apparently no one bothered to look at their post..

This "petition" is on the white house . gov site.. Why would the they want to host a petition that goes against them?

They wouldn't! 

It obviously is being used for other intentions.. What that is, is anyone's guess


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## Larburlingame (May 28, 2003)

Its up to 20 states now!
White House website deluged with secession petitions from 20 states | The Daily Caller


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Oggie said:


> If you don't like the analogy, perhaps you might explain how this sort of "succession movement" isn't just relatively small number of people using fantasy in an attempt to achieve some sort of short-term imaginary gratification instead of doing the more difficult work of building the relationships necessary to achieve success in a representative republic form of government.
> 
> States arenât succeeding.


Holy smokes that was a long sentence!


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## my3boys (Jan 18, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Many probably said the same thing in 1776


They did. The British thought a bunch of farmers, shopkeepers, and fishermen couldn't possibly be a threat .

Looks like we might have to prove that theory wrong again.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Oggie said:


> If you don't like the analogy, perhaps you might explain how this sort of "succession movement" isn't just relatively small number of people using fantasy in an attempt to achieve some sort of short-term imaginary gratification instead of doing the more difficult work of building the relationships necessary to achieve success in a representative republic form of government.
> 
> States arenât succeeding.


Perhaps you would care to explain why you would post an obscene comment when you can so obviously make a more rational and less objectionable post.

I looked back over my posts and can't find where I misspelled Seceding. But I certainly believe you misspelled secession.


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

linn said:


> This is an obscene comment. _*Where do you get off*_ posting something like this?


Need you ask???


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> *building the relationships* necessary to achieve success in a representative republic form of government


Why would anyone want a "relationship" with an administration like BO's?

The lies they tell and scheming they use to hide the failures should disgust anyone with any common decency


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Why would anyone want a "relationship" with an administration like BO's?
> 
> The lies they tell and scheming they use to hide the failures should disgust anyone with any common decency


The necessary relationships are with the voters.

Failing that, all that remains is fantasy.


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## snoozy (May 10, 2002)

linn said:


> This represents the widespread voter dissatisfaction with the election. I haven't spoken to one person, locally, who wanted the liberals back in power. This is worse than hanging chads people.


Not widespread enough. Obama won. Conclusion: there are more of us than there are of you. 

Don't know where you live, but here there is widespread relief that Obama has been re-elected.


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## puddlejumper007 (Jan 12, 2008)

why do that, why not just impeach him, that should have been done a long time ago...


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

That would work. Now y'all just need to get him to commit an impeachable offense.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

snoozy said:


> > Originally Posted by *linn*
> > _This represents the widespread voter dissatisfaction with the election. I haven't spoken to one person, locally, who wanted the liberals back in power. This is worse than hanging chads people._
> 
> 
> ...


Not only there where you are. There is widespread relief that Obama was re-elected in many, many other countries, most of whom are very important allies and trade partners with USA. I think that the potential loss of allies and global trade and commerce, and the inevitability of embargoes placed upon seceded states, is something that hopeful secessionists need to take into consideration and think very carefully about before jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.

.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Texas currently has over 28,000 signatures. In the 30 minutes since I checked last it jumped up over 1,000 signatures!!!! Yeehaw!!! :bouncy::bouncy:


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## snoozy (May 10, 2002)

Yes, isn't it a wonder that there are that many people in the state who can sign their names? In 2003, the illiteracy rate of Texas was estimated to be 19%. :stirpot:


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

Pops2 said:


> i'll go you one better, the fed PREVENTS TX & LA from fully exploiting their oil reserves.
> i had an uncle that owned something like 100 wells all over TX, OK & LA. because of fed regulation he wasn't allowed to operate most of them year around. when in operation they are only allowed to pump 10 barrels a day even though they could produce at least 100 barrels a day.
> TX & LA already import, refine & ship petroleum products to other countries. imagine how much money their state governments would have available IF they weren't sending it to the fed, & were able to grow their economies by eliminating the fed regs that inhibit it now?


Exactly true...Louisiana is not a poor state


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

akane said:


> I think raising their own military might be more difficult than some think. Those wanting to join the military tend to be very patriotic toward the US government. Many will probably move out of the succeeded states. The US military would likely pull out anyone willing to move and relocate them.


I disagree...more military are conservative...if they believed theUSA to be breaking 
up..then I suspect many would go home and fight w their stateus if they believed in the reason...a real life study is available in what happened when USSR fractioned..wonder what the military there did


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## unregistered65598 (Oct 4, 2010)

Tx has over 32,000 votes. They received 14,000 in 10 hrs. I know that doesn't mean they will get their way, but dang they seem to be sending quite a message.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

Forerunner said:


> You just said a mouthful.
> 
> States rights went out the door the first time they respectively began to accept federal monies. THIS is why the whole notion is a charade.
> The states are on the world radar, now, even if the US "consented".
> ...


Agreed...the fight for states rights have come and gone...ad my Dad always said...you made your bed now we have to lie in it.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

beowoulf90 said:


> Hey people!
> 
> Some one already mentioned this, but apparently no one bothered to look at their post..
> 
> ...


Im definitely not advocating putting your name on anything...but the website fufills a requirement of the admin to accept all petitions from citizens...its not new. However trusting this admin to use it correctly is another mattet


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## unregistered65598 (Oct 4, 2010)

stormaq said:


> As soon as Oklahoma is on the list. I'll be first in line to sign the petition!!!!!!!!!


Thier on the list were you the first?


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Merks said:


> Tx has over 32,000 votes. They received 14,000 in 10 hrs. I know that doesn't mean they will get their way, but dang they seem to be sending quite a message.


It's a beautiful thing! It's now at 35,551....up over 3,500 since your post about 35 minutes ago. I've been watching the numbers and the number of signatures per hour keeps growing. I think as more and more people learn about it that we will see an amazing number of signatures.

Many people have remarked on the fact that some of the signatures are from people from different states. A few of us do err and end up outside the borders of Texas. I'm betting that a lot of those folks were born and raised in Texas. I've also heard many people say that they will move back home if Texas secedes.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

I don't know how government works, so these might be dumb questions.

But

Is it treason to sign this petition?

Shouldn't we be petitioning our state capitals FIRST, and then have our state representatives petition the union?


:donut:


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

By the way, it's over 36,300 now ... 

anyway, my thoughts were that I think I would rather my state reps have my personal pulse than the white house.

I just would like someone to try to explain to me how this works.


:donut:


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

Ten minutes later, and now over 37,300 ... dang.

:donut:


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## unregistered65598 (Oct 4, 2010)

snoozy said:


> Not widespread enough. Obama won. Conclusion: there are more of us than there are of you.
> 
> Don't know where you live, but here there is widespread relief that Obama has been re-elected.


Heil Hilter! Ya for us, so looking forward to where our country is heading.


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## snoozy (May 10, 2002)

All the petitions in the world didn't stop the Iraq invasion. You just go ahead and sign your name to the virtual chain letter of your tantrums, if it makes you feel better. There, there :kiss:


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

Somebody, please, just answer my dadgum questions.

I don't care if they are silly ... I really do want to understand.

:donut:


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> Let them go.
> 
> Of course the US will quickly shut down any and all military bases, factories and jobs they have there. There will be no federal dollars for infrastructure repairs, disaster relief or welfare. They can raise their own military now, too.
> 
> ...


The states that are listed do a lot for the military. If they seceded that would be done for their own military. I don't see it as a temper tantrum so much as people getting frustrated with the changes that are happening in this country. I would be thrilled if Georgia seceded.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Yes Glazed it would be better if our representatives were presenting this. The thing is, we are using this as a way to get the attention of our representatives(ever write a letter?...talk about a waste of a tree and postage). 

This was started as a form of protest. It's turning into a grassroots movement! When people get inspired/motivated, they form groups and a group is more powerful than an individual. I honestly expect to see protests and demonstrations start any day now. Guess I better dig around in the scrap lumber and see if I have something suitable for the handle of a sign 

Edited to add- 40,058 Holy compost activator!


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

You wanna-be seccesionists need to stop the whining, and work towards something realistic, like putting up some electable candidates for the 2014 midterm elections. You all want to tear apart the Republic because your wishy-washy, out of touch millionaire candidate lost. Turn your defeat into something positive. Oh, and stop the crybaby routine. You all do it everytime a Democrat gets into the White House, and its getting old.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

greg273 said:


> You wanna-be seccesionists need to stop the whining, and work towards something realistic, like putting up some electable candidates for the 2014 midterm elections. You all want to tear apart the Republic because your wishy-washy, out of touch millionaire candidate lost. Turn your defeat into something positive. Oh, and stop the crybaby routine. *You all do it everytime a Democrat gets into the White House, and its getting old*.


Cry me a river! Remember, Bush did it!


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

TxMex said:


> This was started as a form of protest. It's turning into a grassroots movement!


 No, it isn't. Its the same bunch of disgruntled partisans who have been screaming for Baracks head since the day he got the nomination.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Wow! , almost 6 percent.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Aintlifegrand said:


> Im definitely not advocating putting your name on anything...but the website fufills a requirement of the admin to accept all petitions from citizens...its not new. However trusting this admin to use it correctly is another mattet


thank you, I wasn't aware of that.

I still wouldn't trust this admin, even if my life depended on it..

I almost wish it would happen...


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

greg273 said:


> You wanna-be seccesionists need to stop the whining, and work towards something realistic, like putting up some electable candidates for the 2014 midterm elections. You all want to tear apart the Republic because your wishy-washy, out of touch millionaire candidate lost. Turn your defeat into something positive. Oh, and stop the crybaby routine. You all do it everytime a Democrat gets into the White House, and its getting old.


I didnt hear talk of seceding when bush won his second term, but I heard of MANY who wanted to flee the country and though bush wouldnt step down in 08 and all the same types of fears about where the country was headed. It was just as frantic. 

Kinda confusing though, because 95% of what they list about bush obama did as well, many of them worse actually. Along with several other nutty things, so you would have thought those same lefty folks would still be up in arms. Cognitive dissonance is amazingly powerful apparently.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

greg273 said:


> You wanna-be seccesionists need to stop the whining, and work towards something realistic, like putting up some electable candidates for the 2014 midterm elections. You all want to tear apart the Republic because your wishy-washy, out of touch millionaire candidate lost. Turn your defeat into something positive. Oh, and stop the crybaby routine. You all do it everytime a Democrat gets into the White House, and its getting old.


And libs do it every time a Rep. is in office. So what's your point?


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

beowoulf90 said:


> And libs do it every time a Rep. is in office. So what's your point?


Don't you want to be better than them then?


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

Thirty minutes later, TxMex, and it's at 41,300+

:donut:


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

Over five hundred more in less than ten minutes ... 

And here is what the press secretary for Governor Rick Perry has to say about all of this .... 

_Gov. Perry believes in the greatness of our Union and nothing should be done to change it. But he also shares the frustrations many Americans have with our federal government. Now more than ever our country needs strong leadership from states like Texas, that are making tough decisions to live within their means, keep taxes low and provide opportunities to job creators so their citizens can provide for their families and prosper. We cannot allow Washington&#8217;s tax and spend, one-size-fits-all mindset to jeopardize our children&#8217;s future, undermine our personal liberties and drive our nation down a dangerous path to greater dependence of government._

:donut:


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

beowoulf90 said:


> And libs do it every time a Rep. is in office. So what's your point?


 The point is stop whining and field some electable candidates.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

And, just like that, we are at the door of 42, 000.

:donut:


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

42, 606 in less than five minutes ... this is insane, really.

:donut:


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

whodunit said:


> Just thinking out loud. I don't think that the secessionist states would need their own military. Some are land-locked, so what chances are their they would be attacked by someone other than what remains of the U.S. That doesn't happen if it's a peaceful secession. If attacked by air by a foreign country, missiles or planes have to fly over the U.S.. If attacked by boat, again the U.S. would have to intervene to keep from being drawn into it. Are there not several small countries right now without a military where the U.S. comes to their aid when needed? Trade agreements could be part of providing for protection, especially if the former state has something the U.S. can't live without.
> 
> Honestly, while I can't ever see it happen, I am fascinated by the idea. It sounds like a reasonable way to allow each "party" to live in the kind of world they want to live. It would also create a "frontier" again and create opportunity for people to create and build businesses again.


Not to mention fix some of the things like congress and senate making them term limits, ect.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

naturelover said:


> I don't have any other comments, will sit back with interest to observe what happens in the future - but wanted to point out one thing with regard to the above comment.
> 
> None of those folks would ever want to move to Canada since everything about Canada is totally the dreaded and fearful antithesis of what they want for themselves and what their ideals are. You just really can't get more opposite than that ..... and Canada wouldn't accept them anyway even if some of them did want to move there, so there would be no point in them doing any kind of paperwork. :shrug:
> 
> ...


The New United States???


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Darren said:


> It is a charade. BUT, it has people talking. That's a start. Since it does appear to be legal, "When in the course of human events ...", it needs a genuine kickoff which leads to a state government declaring themselves to be an independent nation state. They have that right. Some federal payments like Social Security would continue.
> 
> This would be an interesting study to determine how a transition would work. The state would own all the federal property. One question is whether the state would have to compensate the federal government. Since the state would not be subject to Supreme Court decisions, that would have to be negotiated.
> 
> ...


We can hope.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

akane said:


> I think raising their own military might be more difficult than some think. Those wanting to join the military tend to be very patriotic toward the US government. Many will probably move out of the succeeded states. The US military would likely pull out anyone willing to move and relocate them.


I think you might be surprised at how many in the military would welcome seceding and starting up a new military. The military has changed drastically over the past few years, and not for the better, and if Obama has his way it's going to change even more over the next four years and many in the military are not happy with the changes.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

silverseeds said:


> I was thinking about this. I dont think it can happen, but lets say it did.
> 
> To keep it hypothetical, lets say 5 "red" states secede. Doesnt matter which, in general red states have good levels of farming and mining and the like. In general they have a large percentage in the armed forces. In general they are patriotic.
> 
> ...


I disagree that they couldn't build a military to match the current one. The reason I disagree is that the same people will be serving, but I believe the morale would be much higher. Right now the military is nothing like what it use to be.


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

glazed said:


> :donut:
> 
> 42, 606 in less than five minutes ... this is insane, really.
> 
> :donut:


 Too bad the returns for Romney didn't come in that fast.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

glazed said:


> :donut:
> 
> 42, 606 in less than five minutes ... this is insane, really.
> 
> :donut:


So .... that is what percentage of nearly 26 million population in your state?

I think if it gets to 50% of the population in your state then you can say it is something to get excited about. 

.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

beowoulf90 said:


> thank you, I wasn't aware of that.
> 
> I still wouldn't trust this admin, even if my life depended on it..
> 
> I almost wish it would happen...


I more than "almost wish", I hope it happens. Those that call us crybabies don't realize, we aren't crying, but we are tired of the changes being made that are harming the country. IMO, the only way to get past this is to secede. The nation is already split. I don't see anyway to compromise when those in power's agenda is so totally different than half of the country's.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Tiempo said:


> Don't you want to be better than them then?


It's not about being better, it's about having such different ideas on the direction this country should go. Those what are hoping for states to secede realize that the split is so complete that it will never be united again. There are some things that conservatives will not compromise on.


----------



## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

It's less than an hour since I posted last, and it is almost 46,000 ... I know it's not nothing fantastic, but, golly, it sure is growing.

For what it's worth, I haven't "signed" nothing.

:donut:


----------



## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

And .............. we're over 47,000 in less than fifteen minutes.

Okay, Okay, I am going to stop looking.

It's all just a joke, right? Growing thousands by the quarter-hour?

Yep, just a passing fad.

This is insane.

:donut:


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

naturelover said:


> So .... that is what percentage of nearly 26 million population in your state?
> 
> I think if it gets to 50% of the population in your state then you can say it is something to get excited about.
> 
> .


I guarantee only a tiny fraction of the population even knows about it.


----------



## unregistered65598 (Oct 4, 2010)

poppy said:


> I guarantee only a tiny fraction of the population even knows about it.


I am doing my part to make sure the population of my town know about it.


----------



## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

Over 600 more in less than ten minutes ... lolololol.

:donut:


----------



## unregistered65598 (Oct 4, 2010)

glazed said:


> :donut:
> 
> Over 600 more in less than ten minutes ... lolololol.
> 
> :donut:


Just wondering what you find so funny about thousands of americans wanting to basicaly defect from the usa?


----------



## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

glazed said:


> :donut:
> 
> Over five hundred more in less than ten minutes ...
> 
> ...


Governor Perry could find himself replaced if he doesn't listen to the will of the people.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Merks said:


> Just wondering what you find so funny about thousands of americans wanting to basicaly defect from the usa?


It shows frustration with where the country is heading. Some have long predicted the Balkanization of the US


----------



## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

50,000+


----------



## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

TxMex said:


> 50,000+


:donut:

In less than an hour ... yep, just a farce.

:donut:


----------



## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:stars:

I was laughing, merks, because I had said that I was going to stop looking.

By the way, it's already at the door of 51,000 ... so it really is growing at an average of a thousand signatures every fifteen minutes.

:stars:


----------



## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

Another 15 minutes goes by, and it's over 52.

:donut:


----------



## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Are you trying to compete with the petition Glazed?


----------



## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

...

I really don't know what I am doing, tiempo ... I actually have tears in my eyes, and my heart is racing ... I don't know why I keep looking over there ... my signature isn't on it ....


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

greg273 said:


> No, it isn't. Its the same bunch of disgruntled partisans who have been screaming for Baracks head since the day he got the nomination.


this is the whole problem (not just you but people on both sides of the mainstream political spectrum), instead of recognizing it for the statement of concern that it is you belittle it as unimportant. the occupy movement was a powerful statement to anyone willing to see it. the stupidity of the delivery in NO WAY invalidates the message.


----------



## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Tiempo said:


> Are you trying to compete with the petition Glazed?


 If it were my state, I'd be exited too, even if it was a farce and meant nothing in the end.
What it does mean, is over 50,000 collective voices making a statement in just a few hours.
Yeah,, I'd say thats something to get excited about.
GH


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

poppy said:


> I guarantee only a tiny fraction of the population even knows about it.


So far. If it keeps growing though the word will get out. I just wish they would petition their elected officials and governors.


----------



## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

Marshloft said:


> If it were my state, I'd be exited too, even if it was a farce and meant nothing in the end.
> What it does mean, is over 50,000 collective voices making a statement in just a few hours.
> Yeah,, I'd say thats something to get excited about.
> GH


...

Thank you.

...

By the way, it's surpassed 57 k

...


----------



## mare (Aug 31, 2006)

i have always been told electronic petitions arent legal documents. how many people have signed this numerous times?? it really isnt surprising that texas is going gang busters on this.


----------



## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

glazed said:


> ...
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> ...


 Whats the pop. of Texas? What percentage of signatures would it take to get the governing bodies attn.?
GH


----------



## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

mare said:


> i have always been told electronic petitions arent legal documents. how many people have signed this numerous times?? it really isnt surprising that texas is going gang busters on this.


 Print it out on toilet paper,, it becomes a legal doc.
GH


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Marshloft said:


> If it were my state, I'd be exited too, even if it was a farce and meant nothing in the end.
> What it does mean, is over 50,000 collective voices making a statement in just a few hours.
> Yeah,, I'd say thats something to get excited about.
> GH


Wouldn't it be cool if 50,000 people got off their fat butts and did something about it. :rock:


----------



## mare (Aug 31, 2006)

Marshloft said:


> Print it out on toilet paper,, it becomes a legal doc.
> GH


not true, it needs actual signatures. if you want to copy it maybe but the signatures need to be real.


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I'd bet $10 to doughnut (no offense, Glazed) that not 1/5 of the signees voted in the Texas election.


----------



## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

mare said:


> not true, it needs actual signatures. if you want to copy it maybe but the signatures need to be real.


You can sign your taxes electronically. This IS a government site meant for citizens to petition the federal gov. each person has to make an account to sign it. 

Im not saying the feds will take it seriously but it is official for what its worth. 

a few states are well on track to hit the 25k mark but the texas one is growing fast so far, they had over 25k just today. It seems to be atleast half of the signatures are texans or more each time I look. Most texans no doubt havent heard of it... yet, and you have to assume many more agree that wouldnt sign it. 

This most likely would have to be called for from the texas state gov for it to have any traction federally and even then would likely be ignored imo. but it is an interesting protest.


----------



## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

silverseeds said:


> This most likely would have to be called for from the texas state gov for it to have any traction federally and even then would likely be ignored imo. but it is an interesting protest.


I asked these questions, and made these comments, over six hours ago ... I only got one acknowledgement, or response.



glazed said:


> :donut:
> 
> I don't know how government works, so these might be dumb questions.
> 
> ...






glazed said:


> :donut:
> 
> By the way, it's over 36,300 now ...
> 
> ...


,,,,,,,,,,

Seeing how this thing is already at 58,500 ... yes ... I want to know what is really going on here.

,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

glazed said:


> Seeing how this thing is already at 58,500 ... yes ... I want to know what is really going on here.
> 
> ,,,,,,,,,,


It's called the snowball effect. Right now you have a bunch of people caught up in a frenzy of disappointment over the election and this petition for secession from the USA is their way of protesting against it. They think they want out and they're asking for _peaceful_ secession (that's a not so subtle way of threatening that they're willing to wage war if they don't get what they want the way they want it). They're just getting swept up with the snowball as it rolls downhill. The snowball will stop in a few days when it loses momentum and the petitioners stop to think more carefully about what the more dire and drastic consequences would be if what they're petitioning for actually happened, either peacefully or by waging war. Most of them probably haven't thought it out carefully and haven't got a clue what secession would really mean for them if it happened and what they stand to lose.

.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Here ya go, 2 more petitions now - to deport and exile everyone who signed petitions to secede. I don't care who you are, that is hilarious. :hysterical:


Deport Everyone That Signed A Petition To Withdraw Their State From The United States Of America

Strip the Citizenship from Everyone who Signed a Petition to Secede and Exile Them 

.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

TxMex said:


> Montana, Indiana, Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Florida, North Carolina, and Texas have filed petitions to be allowed to 'peacefully withdraw from the United States of America'. If you live in one of these states and support this, then go and sign the petition so they get enough signatures to be considered. Here is the link for Texas and it is easy to find the other states from here.
> 
> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pe...ca-and-create-its-own-new-government/BmdWCP8B


My state is on this list and it makes me want to puke.

BOTH candidates were clowns. We are gonna get the same thing no matter who's the 'puppet' in office.
IF these states think this election is WORTH DESTROYING THE UNITED States of America, by "withdrawing".........it shows just how bad things are in our society.

Would have made more sense if those people would have put a worthy candidate on the ticket.
Would have made sense for those folks to start at the bottom and work their way up........like running the school board, dog catcher, etc.......then moving up the food chain.

Nope.
It's easier to be a 'quitter' than invest the time and effort for real change.
If my state 'withdraws' I am leaving this state and moving to TN.

What a sickening mind-set our country is in.
I wish there was an "emotion button" for someone puking.

ETA: Yeah, no thanks on putting my name out there for all to see.......these are nothing but ways to collect names of the "anti-government" folks to keep an eye on them.
IMHO


----------



## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Tiempo said:


> Don't you want to be better than them then?


You fight fire with fire..

Why the double standard all the time?

They above the "rules"?

Sorry I forgot, they are above the law..

But understand that if they shoot at you or try to harm you, you will lay down and won't return fire..

Because you are "better than that"



So whether you believe it or not it is a matter of self defense, self preservation.. I won't lay down...


----------



## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

greg273 said:


> The point is stop whining and field some electable candidates.


So you are allowed to whine if a Rep. is elected, but I'm suppose to suck it up and be a good dog..

Yea right! Sorry this dog will bite back..


----------



## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Sonshine said:


> I more than "almost wish", I hope it happens. Those that call us crybabies don't realize, we aren't crying, but we are tired of the changes being made that are harming the country. IMO, the only way to get past this is to secede. The nation is already split. I don't see anyway to compromise when those in power's agenda is so totally different than half of the country's.


The problem is it won't be peaceful! No matter how you try, there will be some idiot or socialist plant that will start trouble..

Once the shooting starts there will be considerable deaths.. 

This may be what is required to secure Freedom, but I for one don't take it lightly and I am not going to rush in blindly. There are too many lives at risk at this point and the lose of those lives don't justify the end, YET!..


----------



## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

naturelover said:


> Here ya go, 2 more petitions now - to deport and exile everyone who signed petitions to secede. I don't care who you are, that is hilarious. :hysterical:
> 
> 
> Deport Everyone That Signed A Petition To Withdraw Their State From The United States Of America
> ...


Well isn't that typical of liberal scum!

If you don't agree with the Socialists, get the hades out, they will even pay for the buses to deport you.. Yet they wont' up hold the immigration laws doing the same thing..

That really is telling! It shows who the liberals really care about and what they really support, and Freedom isn't one of those things..

I may have to sign the petition just to irk the liberals even more..

Considering Freedom of Speech is only for liberals and not for those who disagree with them....

Imagine that!


----------



## oth47 (Jan 11, 2008)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> My state is on this list and it makes me want to puke.
> 
> BOTH candidates were clowns. We are gonna get the same thing no matter who's the 'puppet' in office.
> IF these states think this election is WORTH DESTROYING THE UNITED States of America, by "withdrawing".........it shows just how bad things are in our society.
> ...


 Never mind moving to Tennessee,it's involved too.And quite frankly,we already have plenty of people.


----------



## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> My state is on this list and it makes me want to puke.
> 
> BOTH candidates were clowns. We are gonna get the same thing no matter who's the 'puppet' in office.
> IF these states think this election is WORTH DESTROYING THE UNITED States of America, by "withdrawing".........it shows just how bad things are in our society.
> ...



Sorry America has already been destroyed!

When the Government can force you to buy a product approved by them, then Freedom is lost..

Of course they exempt themselves and the Unions for any penalties, taxes etc..

If they do achieve their goal I may have to consider moving and supporting them.. The gods only know that the Socialist State I'm in is controlled by the takers.. It seems the same 10 /11 counties pick the winners over the other 57/56 counties.. They always choose more entitlements..

Even our newly elected Attorney General came out yesterday and said she would push for more restrictive gun control.. She isn't even in office yet and already the Socialist agenda is coming out..

So Freedom and the Constitution mean nothing to those newly elected socialists..

I disagree with your stance, but will agree I'm not giving this corrupt admin my name willingly...


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

oth47 said:


> Never mind moving to Tennessee,it's involved too.And quite frankly,we already have plenty of people.


So much for southern hospitality......
I guess I will take myself to GA.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

beowoulf90 said:


> Sorry America has already been destroyed!
> 
> When the Government can force you to buy a product approved by them, then *Freedom is lost..*


*IMHO*
No. 
Freedom was given away.
Freedom was not taken, stolen, or lost.
It was GIVEN away.
We GAVE it away.......willingly.



> Of course they exempt themselves and the Unions for any penalties, taxes etc..
> 
> If they do achieve their goal I may have to consider moving and supporting them.. The gods only know that the Socialist State I'm in is controlled by the takers.. It seems the same 10 /11 counties pick the winners over the other 57/56 counties.. They always choose more entitlements..
> 
> ...


*IMHO*
IT NEVER HAS AND the fact they are in office is a REFLECTION of the citizens because they either voted FOR THEM or they do NOTHING to prevent them from taking power.



> I disagree with your stance, but will agree I'm not giving this corrupt admin my name willingly...


I LOVE to be able to disagree and agree all in the same post!!
And be adult about it!!
Thanks!!


----------



## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> No.
> Freedom was given away.
> Freedom was not taken, stolen, or lost.
> It was GIVEN away.
> ...



The problem there is I didn't give Freedom away.

Others may have, but I didn't.. I can find a lot of I's who didn't give it away..

It was taken by those on the government dole, socialists, Unions etc.. Who lied about what they were doing and promoting.. 

They basically told the sheep that if they supported Freedom they would lose..

Well the end result is they won and the sheep are being led to slaughter..

So be it! But I will still stand against their taking of Freedom, because as I've said "I didn't give it away"


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

beowoulf90 said:


> The problem there is I didn't give Freedom away.


*IMHO
*When we send generations of children to government institutions (schools) to be fully indoctrinated.
We gave away some freedom.
When we do not rise up, and stay HECK NO
We give away freedom.
When we do not actively involve ourselves in the process of securing our freedoms, we give them away. Just a hair at a time.
Then all the sudden we look up and it's a full wig......and wonder, how'd that happen?



> Others may have, but I didn't.. I can find a lot of I's who didn't give it away..


I am guilty.:flame:
I sent my kids to school through 6,5,3rd grades where they were being transformed into what the 'books say you should be'. 
I allowed the to read and learn lies about our history. I allowed other women to have authority over my children and fill their heads full of crap.......
I never ran for school board, dog catcher, or any other office.
I never went to a protest.
I never served in the military 
At first glance, "wire tapping was no big deal to me, I wasn't doing anything wrong so what do I care".............and I did NOTHING to stop it.
The list could go on an on.



> It was taken by those on the government dole, socialists, Unions etc.. Who lied about what they were doing and promoting..
> 
> They basically told the sheep that if they supported Freedom they would lose..
> 
> ...


IMHO
When we do nothing to secure it, protect it, defend it........
When it is gone, our 'blame' starts with ourselves, then we can point fingers at everyone else.:hammer:

Personal, Responsibility
I am a BIG fan of it!!


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

naturelover said:


> It's called the snowball effect. Right now you have a bunch of people caught up in a frenzy of disappointment over the election and this petition for secession from the USA is their way of protesting against it. They think they want out and they're asking for _peaceful_ secession (that's a not so subtle way of threatening that they're willing to wage war if they don't get what they want the way they want it). They're just getting swept up with the snowball as it rolls downhill. The snowball will stop in a few days when it loses momentum and the petitioners stop to think more carefully about what the more dire and drastic consequences would be if what they're petitioning for actually happened, either peacefully or by waging war. Most of them probably haven't thought it out carefully and haven't got a clue what secession would really mean for them if it happened and what they stand to lose.
> 
> .


You seem to have a very low veiw of the signers of this petition. I don't believe this will be silenced so easily and believe people HAVE thought it through.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

naturelover said:


> Here ya go, 2 more petitions now - to deport and exile everyone who signed petitions to secede. I don't care who you are, that is hilarious. :hysterical:
> 
> 
> Deport Everyone That Signed A Petition To Withdraw Their State From The United States Of America
> ...


Deport them to where? They are American's.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

beowoulf90 said:


> The problem is it won't be peaceful! No matter how you try, there will be some idiot or socialist plant that will start trouble..
> 
> Once the shooting starts there will be considerable deaths..
> 
> This may be what is required to secure Freedom, but I for one don't take it lightly and I am not going to rush in blindly. There are too many lives at risk at this point and the lose of those lives don't justify the end, YET!..


I assume either way there's going to be violence and deaths. Why not make them mean something? We now have a government that can shoot to kill any citizen they want. They can detain any citizen they want, with no explanation. This country is so divided that I can no longer see a way to unite them. IMO I don't see a way out of this mess. The longer we wait, the harder it will be to make any changes.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> So much for southern hospitality......
> I guess I will take myself to GA.


Sorry, Georgia is on the list too. You may want to try the New England states of California, or maybe even Illinois.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> Sorry, Georgia is on the list too. You may want to try the New England states of California, or maybe even Illinois.


Who, in the south, is not on the list??


----------



## mare (Aug 31, 2006)

well lets see- we have voting in place to ensure the people are heard, but if it doesnt go your way you are going to pout and stomp your feet until someone pays attention, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........what does that sound like??? you guys are all for the american way until it doesnt go your way. you guys are making a mockery of our constitiution and should be ashamed.


----------



## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Laura, I would invite you to come on over to MO, but you may already be there in zone 5. We are the Show Me State and I would say we have been shown the character of this admisitration and we don't like it. By the way in answer to some of the earlier replies to my post, Missouri is a "RED" state except for the entitlement bunch around St. Louis.


----------



## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> *IMHO
> *When we send generations of children to government institutions (schools) to be fully indoctrinated.
> We gave away some freedom.
> When we do not rise up, and stay HECK NO
> ...


Sorry I'm not guilty..

Yes our kids went to Government schools, but we also home schooled them to show where the teachers were wrong/lying.. Yes it created trouble, but we pushed through it.

What type of "rise up" do you want?

I've been involved in quite a few protests mainly along the 2A line, but there have been others. They have been all peace protests. 

I've met with my Representatives and Senators, both State and Federal. Some will no longer talk to me because I told them they were thieves in front of others and proved it.. They no longer will meet with me or return my calls..
So they know who I am... But to them I'm just another pain in the neck that they can ignore..

I served in the military, US Army, 82nd Airborne Div. I served over 6 years active duty...
Just a side note because I'm screwy.. It's still the prettiest skirt I've ever looked under...:nana:

I've had an FFL license and was subject to the jack booted thugs (AKA BATF/ATF now) simply because I can repair firearms..

I fought Bush and then Obama on the UNpatriot Act and continue to fight against it..

What more do we do with out firing the first shot?
Individuals like my self would be put down quicker than a rabid dog and no one else would be the wiser.. The media lap dogs would paint me as a terrorist or some evil being and the sheep would believe it..

So I ask again, What more are we to do?

Vote?
Teach?
Lead?

So far none of the above have worked against the Socialist machine and media..


----------



## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

mare said:


> well lets see- we have voting in place to ensure the people are heard, but if it doesnt go your way you are going to pout and stomp your feet until someone pays attention, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........what does that sound like??? you guys are all for the american way until it doesnt go your way. you guys are making a mockery of our constitiution and should be ashamed.


Oh you mean like forcing people to buy only the product the Government wants, whether you want or need it. While at the same time exempting themselves and their Union cronies..

Yet you claim we are making a mockery of the Constitution..

Amazing!

Socialism has prevailed and you say those who oppose it are acting badly..
Well guess what it will get worse.. Unfortunately when it does we all lose! Simply because Socialists don't believe in Freedom and can't keep their hands off other peoples money/property...


----------



## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

I am wondering ............... will the deportees be given their free choice of a convenient store or motel?

:donut:


----------



## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

That was bad, wasn't it ... I shouldn't have said that.



by the way ... 72,500 ...

:stars:


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> *IMHO
> *When we send generations of children to government institutions (schools) to be fully indoctrinated.
> We gave away some freedom.
> When we do not rise up, and stay HECK NO
> ...


I DIDN'T. I have always homeschooled. I served in the USAF. I never ran for office, but have done my share of protests, in my own way I have done all I can to get the truth out there. So, no, I don't take responsibility for the loss of our freedoms.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Who, in the south, is not on the list??


Not sure, but I do know that the south is generally more conservative than the north, so if you don't want to be a part of this movement, you may want to check there.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

mare said:


> well lets see- we have voting in place to ensure the people are heard, but if it doesnt go your way you are going to pout and stomp your feet until someone pays attention, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........what does that sound like??? you guys are all for the american way until it doesnt go your way. you guys are making a mockery of our constitiution and should be ashamed.


No, buying votes through entitlements is making a mockery of our constitution and some of us are tired of it and ready to get back to what our founding fathers planned.


----------



## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

:donut:

I like you Sonshine ... you make me smile.

:donut:


----------



## mare (Aug 31, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> No, buying votes through entitlements is making a mockery of our constitution and some of us are tired of it and ready to get back to what our founding fathers planned.


what ever makes you able to live with how you are acting......................


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

The number os states is now standing at 47 that want to secede and start their own government~!!!


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> Not sure, but I do know that the south is generally more conservative than the north, so if you don't want to be a part of this movement, you may want to check there.


Ahhhh I see, says the one who can read the message between the lines....
Thank you.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

linn said:


> Laura, I would invite you to come on over to MO, but you may already be there in zone 5. We are the Show Me State and I would say we have been shown the character of this admisitration and we don't like it. By the way in answer to some of the earlier replies to my post, Missouri is a "RED" state except for the entitlement bunch around St. Louis.


Thank you!!
I voted for Jesus Christ this election, as He in my opinion, was the only One worth voting for. Unfortunately, He was not on the ticket....but a write in will do.
I am more concervative than most, self proclaimed 'conservatives', and giggle when it is implied that I might be of another persuasion, like there is something wrong with 'non conservatives'. 
Last time I check, they were Created by the same God I worship.....
I digress.
I am of the persuasion that secession is UN American, and treasonous.
I am not sucking my thumb and wetting my pants because 'my favorite didn't get picked'....one standing in a river of snot, facing a man with a bucket of horse poop has a similar decision. Duck or let it hit you. Either way, it's gross.
I am taking personal responsibility for myself and my own, and I am sharing the Good News with the Rest.
I just did a study of the Tower of Babel.......seems like the more things change in time? The more they remain the same. 
Tisk Tisk Tisk.

I sure do appreciate your hospitality linn!!


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

glazed said:


> :donut:
> 
> I like you Sonshine ... you make me smile.
> 
> :donut:


LOL Well, that's good to know. I like you too, but not sure what I posted that made you smile, just glad you did.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

mare said:


> what ever makes you able to live with how you are acting......................


And how am I acting that would affect my ability to live?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Ahhhh I see, says the one who can read the message between the lines....
> Thank you.


Care to explain this post?


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## oth47 (Jan 11, 2008)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> So much for southern hospitality......
> I guess I will take myself to GA.


Wasn't trying to be inhospitable,just stating a fact.E Tn is overrun with folks who came from other places and want to change Tn into what they left behind.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Actually, Texas has talked about secession for many years - most all my life, in fact.

It would have been feasible a few decades back, but I don't think it would be now. We have too much federal government in this state and too many illegal aliens.

If we seceded, we would be taken by Mexico, from the inside in a short span of time - and the US government would not help. One of the things they promised when Texas came into the union was to protect Texas against Mexico. They didn't then and they aren't now and wouldn't if we were independent.

I believe the best thing we can do is get back to being Texas and not running our state as the federal government is being run.

*Laura Zone 5* The Tower of Babel has crossed my mind a lot during the last decade and more so just lately. This country is so divided and this last election has caused even more. We are turning on each other and that just makes us so much easier to control, it is painful to see.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Trixie said:


> Actually, Texas has talked about secession for many years - most all my life, in fact.
> 
> It would have been feasible a few decades back, but I don't think it would be now. We have too much federal government in this state and too many illegal aliens.
> 
> ...


The difference is that if they left the Union, they would be free to act on their own and make any changes. Also just like the first war with Mexico, there would be plenty of folks not from Texas coming to their aide. Remember most killed at the Alamo weren't Texans...

But then again I see this entire thing as a protest and nothing more. 
The Feds won't give up the money and will do anything and everything to stop them from leaving.. The Feds can't live without other peoples money, they are like leeches...


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

beowoulf90 said:


> The difference is that if they left the Union, they would be free to act on their own and make any changes. Also just like the first war with Mexico, there would be plenty of folks not from Texas coming to their aide. Remember most killed at the Alamo weren't Texans...
> 
> But then again I see this entire thing as a protest and nothing more.
> The Feds won't give up the money and will do anything and everything to stop them from leaving.. The Feds can't live without other peoples money, they are like leeches...


Many of the others who came to help Texas, and the monies from the US, was so Texas could eventually be annexed. We are still a big state, but the US got a big chunk of land that was once Texas when it was annexed. We were worth fighting for and financing then.

Should we secede, I don't think the feeling would be quite the same.

I also don't see Texans doing anything - they have done less than nothing about the present invasion.

Actually, it is a bit of history repeating itself - in reverse. Americans came into Texas - for a better life - and took over. Now we see the Mexicans doing the same thing. The only thing early Texicans didn't have welfare, freebies, etc., to help them get wealthy.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> You seem to have a very low veiw of the signers of this petition. I don't believe this will be silenced so easily and believe people HAVE thought it through.


I don't know that I can call it a low view. Maybe mind-boggled would be a more apt description. I don't believe that any of the people who signed these petitions did so having given any careful thought to the consequences to them. I think that most of them are simply cutting off their own noses to spite their faces because they don't know how to not be sore losers. I fear that some of them have been so un-thinking and hot-headed and spiteful that they have now unwittingly dammed and doomed themselves and their families to utter failure.

What's even more mind-boggling to me is that someone who should have known better, someone who it's my understanding is presently still enlisted in the military and who is a man with a family would set himself up for court martial and worse by openly speaking treason, renege on his military oath and show that he is willingly considering desertion. And he did it on internet! :shocked: And is ready to drag other military people's names into it along with him into dishonour. Is this the mind of a sensible thinking person?

No, I don't think anyone has given careful consideration to what they may have let themself in for by signing those petitions. All they've done is identify themselves and opened themselves up to serious scrutiny by authorities and miscreants alike. Now some will lose their jobs, their homes, financial backing, the respect of friends and family and they will have nowhere to go and nobody to turn to except to other misfits like themselves.

Really, it's a terrible thing and it makes me sad to see that there are so many tens of thousands of people who have lost any good sense they might once have had. And now none of them can take it back once they realize their mistakes because those names on those petitions are a permanent record.

.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

So NatureLover it would appear that you don't think to highly of people that are willing to stand up for their beliefs. Now I realize you don't have a dog in this fight being Canadian and all, but the USA has a long history of standing up for our individual beliefs regardless of what it may cost us personally. Do you know what happened to the men who signed the Declaration of Independence?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Trixie said:


> Actually, Texas has talked about secession for many years - most all my life, in fact.
> 
> It would have been feasible a few decades back, but I don't think it would be now. We have too much federal government in this state and too many illegal aliens.
> 
> ...


The Tower of Babel was 'mans way' of "being like God".
Directly disobeyed Him, and more.
So.......God confused their language, and scattered them.

TODAY we have 'automatic translators" on our computers and phones.
We can, all speak, the same language again.
HOW many folks are bi, tri, or quad lingual?
Sign language is 'relatively' universal.
Humans, again, (or still) are trying to 'be like God.

Jesus said a kingdom divided against itself, shall not stand.

Now, I have a curious question:
WHICH States in the Union, boast the most enlisted men and women.
And which states boast the most veterans.
Because, God forbid, we did have states withdraw from the Union, would then those native enlisted men and women / vets become that states "military"?
Knowing which states have the most enlisted would tell you the states that had the better chance of surviving an attack.

I hate to even think about states withdrawing.
The division, is heart breaking.
*I* pledged allegiance to the flag, of the UNITED States of America, ONE nation, Under God, INDIVISIBLE......
When I say the pledge, I mean it.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

No need to even go on there will be NO receding. None can't the SCOTUS has spoken.
*
SCOTUS
Scalia: No to secession*


> You've got to love that Antonin Scalia answered a letter from a screenwriter asking for tips on a screenplay involving Maine seceding from the union:





> I am afraid I cannot be of much help with your problem, principally because I cannot imagine that such a question could ever reach the Supreme Court. To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, "one Nation, indivisible.") Secondly, I find it difficult to envision who the parties to this lawsuit might be. Is the State suing the United States for a declaratory judgment? But the United States cannot be sued without its consent, and it has not consented to this sort of suit.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Wags said:


> So NatureLover it would appear that you don't think to highly of people that are willing to stand up for their beliefs. Now I realize you don't have a dog in this fight being Canadian and all, but the USA has a long history of standing up for our individual beliefs regardless of what it may cost us personally. Do you know what happened to the men who signed the Declaration of Independence?


I think that your response is another example of not thinking things through.

While I personally, as an individual, do not have a dog in your fight, you would be thinking wrongfully if you believe that the country Canada and ALL other countries that do trade and commerce with USA would not have a dog in your fight between USA factions. Not only would your bid for secession effect individuals on a personal level, it would effect your seceded states finances, industries, trade, commerce, imports and exports and much, much more. It would all come to a stop. There would be embargoes and worse placed upon each seceded state. Industries and businesses that depend upon trade with other countries would pull their industry out of the seceded states and move them to the USA or even to other countries. Individuals would not be able to cross borders between seceded and non-seceded states. And that's just to mention a few things, not even talking about what worse things would happen if there was blood shed while you all stand up for your individual beliefs.

I know that when the Declaration of Independence was signed there were less than 4 million population across the entirety of America. Now there are more than 311 million people (the 3rd largest populated nation in the world) and those people are scattered thickly across the continental USA. There is no comparison between the days of the signing of the Declaration of Independence and present day, so perhaps you should bring yourself out of the ideals of the past and focus on the realities of here and now.

THINK about what you are asking for and what the consequences will be.

.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Trixie said:


> Actually, Texas has talked about secession for many years - most all my life, in fact.
> 
> It would have been feasible a few decades back, but I don't think it would be now. We have too much federal government in this state and too many illegal aliens.
> 
> ...


If all the states that wanted to secede joined together they could be strong enough to defend themselves against any threat from Mexico. What defense does our government give now?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

naturelover said:


> I don't know that I can call it a low view. Maybe mind-boggled would be a more apt description. I don't believe that any of the people who signed these petitions did so having given any careful thought to the consequences to them. I think that most of them are simply cutting off their own noses to spite their faces because they don't know how to not be sore losers. I fear that some of them have been so un-thinking and hot-headed and spiteful that they have now unwittingly dammed and doomed themselves and their families to utter failure.
> 
> What's even more mind-boggling to me is that someone who should have known better, someone who it's my understanding is presently still enlisted in the military and who is a man with a family would set himself up for court martial and worse by openly speaking treason, renege on his military oath and show that he is willingly considering desertion. And he did it on internet! :shocked: And is ready to drag other military people's names into it along with him into dishonour. Is this the mind of a sensible thinking person?
> 
> ...


Maybe if you could see things through their eyes you could understand. We are watching our nation being changed into something we don't recognize. Many of us have served or are still serving this nation. We are willing to do whatever we can to bring this nation back to what it was. We no longer believe any compromises can be made. We are watching a nation of freedom being turned into a socialist nation. Many, myself included, feel like splitting the nation may be the only hope to save at least a portion of what was once a great nation.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> If all the states that wanted to secede joined together they could be strong enough to defend themselves against any threat from Mexico. What defense does our government give now?


Will they be strong enough to stand against all others besides Mexico?



Sonshine said:


> Maybe if you could see things through their eyes you could understand. We are watching our nation being changed into something we don't recognize. Many of us have served or are still serving this nation. We are willing to do whatever we can to *bring this nation back to what it was.* We no longer believe any compromises can be made. We are watching a nation of freedom being turned into a socialist nation. Many, myself included, feel like *splitting the nation may be the only hope to save at least a portion of what was once a great nation*.


You are trying to live in the past. USA already IS a great nation and now you're trying to cause it to crumble from within because you want to take it back to the past when it was a struggling nation. You've been drinking too much of the lunatic fringe Koolaid, you don't even know what real socialism is.

Right now I feel really sorry for USA having to deal with all of this insane nonsense.

.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

naturelover said:


> Right now I feel really sorry for USA having to deal with all of this insane nonsense.


Thank you.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> If all the states that wanted to secede joined together they could be strong enough to defend themselves against any threat from Mexico. What defense does our government give now?


Texas could be taken over from within - that's my point. We could be 'voted' into Mexico shortly. There would be little need for any force involved.

Our government gives us no defense now - and truly never has, but now there is at least the implied, or pretended, idea that they might defend Texas. The federal government, with the aid of our state government, has set the stage for this by allowing so many foreigners into the state. They have been allowed and aided in staying here, buying property, getting an education, acquiring wealth to the detriment of the citizens of this state. It is actually happening all over the country, it's just more apparent in some states than others.

*Laura Zone 5* I don't understand about the computer and translation. Texas is essentially a two language state. We are not a bi-lingual state. 

In New York City, I can't imagine how many languages are spoken - different languages.

When I thought of the Tower of Babel, I was thinking of the fact our government is allowing so many non-English speaking people into the country and not demanding or even encouraging them to learn English. The children do, but in Texas anyway, the state government bends over backwards to make sure most instructions are in two languages. Even with online translation, (which isn't available in most face to face situations) this does present many problems and even mistrust. This led me to wonder if this was not just another division our government was instituting.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Keep in mind that the petitions only represent some individuals that want to secede. They do not represent their states or the majority of the people within their states. America is changing and it needs to change...It has to change. It is ignorant to state that the people that voted for President Obama are takers...Many haven't taken anything except the time to pay their taxes.

Here's David Frum's take:

Conservatives, don't despair - CNN.com



> Whatever you think of the Obama record, it's worth keeping in mind that by any measure, free enterprise has been winning the game for a long, long time to this point.
> 
> Compare the United States of 2012 to the United States of 1962. Leave aside the obvious points about segregation and discrimination, and look only at the economy.
> 
> ...


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Has anyone thought about the fact all this talk of secession could play right into the hands of a government that would like to take more control?

To be clear about this, I view it as nonsense as well. As I said, it might have worked., for Texas, decades ago - but not now.

Our only hope is to stay united, work together to make this country better. 

First and foremost, it means we have to stop letting the politicians pit us against each other.


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Trixie said:


> Has anyone thought about the fact all this talk of secession could play right into the hands of a government that would like to take more control?
> 
> To be clear about this, I view it as nonsense as well. As I said, it might have worked., for Texas, decades ago - but not now.
> 
> ...


 I wouldn't worry too much about it,,

Conservative Leaders Reject Secession Talk In Wake Of Obama's Election - Yahoo! News


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

naturelover said:


> I think that your response is another example of not thinking things through.


 i think it's the "you can't do that" socialists that aren't thinking it through.




naturelover said:


> While I personally, as an individual, do not have a dog in your fight, you would be thinking wrongfully if you believe that the country Canada and ALL other countries that do trade and commerce with USA would not have a dog in your fight between USA factions. Not only would your bid for secession effect individuals on a personal level, it would effect your seceded states finances, industries, trade, commerce, imports and exports and much, much more. It would all come to a stop. There would be embargoes and worse placed upon each seceded state.


 yes it would affect their finances for SOME (especially TX) they would improve because they would keep all those tax dollars they send out & the end of federal regulations would allow them to GROW their economies. for example I had an uncle who owned about 100 wells all over TX, OK & LA and because of federal regs WHEN they were allowed to pump they were limited to 10 barrels a day per well even though they had capacities exceeding 100 barrels a day. TX also has several MAJOR defense industry facilities like Bell helicopter, boeing, general dynamics & raytheon. are they really going to abandon secessionist govt in favor of supporting the higher taxes of obamacare and higher wages of union labor in unionist america or are they going to transfer MORE production to a more industrial freindly secessionist states? what kind of embargoes exactly are countries going to impose? crude is great but if you can't turn it into gas, deisel & plastic it's worthless AND TX & LA contain over HALF the refining capacity of the USA, in fact TX & LA provide a BIG chunk of the refined petroleum products used by canadia & europe refusing to buy it would at least double the cost of said products. and since the envirosocialist ALREADY have prevented increasing the refining capacity of the USA, don't count on the rest of the USA picking up the slack when they become more concentrated by division of the country. as a matter of fact, Britain was on the verge of entering the american civil war on behalf of the CONFEDERATE STATES, but egypt & india both came through w/ their first major cotton crops to supply the all important textile industries and thus allowed them to stay out of it.




naturelover said:


> Industries and businesses that depend upon trade with other countries would pull their industry out of the seceded states and move them to the USA or even to other countries. Individuals would not be able to cross borders between seceded and non-seceded states. And that's just to mention a few things, not even talking about what worse things would happen if there was blood shed while you all stand up for your individual beliefs.


 again, would they really leave an industry freindly country for an industry hostile one? after all it would improve their profits to stay. sure they would cross borders, they would just need a passport &/or visa.




naturelover said:


> I know that when the Declaration of Independence was signed there were less than 4 million population across the entirety of America. Now there are more than 311 million people (the 3rd largest populated nation in the world) and those people are scattered thickly across the continental USA. There is no comparison between the days of the signing of the Declaration of Independence and present day, so perhaps you should bring yourself out of the ideals of the past and focus on the realities of here and now.


 maybe you & the other socialist w/ your faith in govt should focus on the realities. Texas ALONE has an economy BIGGER than mexico & about even w/ australia even w/ fed overregulation. remove that regulation and they could easily grow from #14 into the top 10. just by keeping all the equipment already in the state reserve & guard units and retaining all those personnel plus whatever active duty personnel returned to TX they would have a combat power on paper roughly equal to or greater than pakistan up to equal to Iran. that is OVER NIGHT, give them a couple of years of gearing up & protecting their borders and they would be in the top 10 SOLIDLY. just to give you an idea canada ranks in the mid 20s, pakistan in the mid teens & and Iran just hits the top 10.




naturelover said:


> THINK about what you are asking for and what the consequences will be.


while it isn't actually going to happen, it would be NOWHERE near the doom & gloom predicted by the nannystate addicted.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

*W.H. Petition Calls for Stripping Citizenship and Exile for Anyone Who Signs Petition to Secede[/B



A White House petition gathering force calls for citizenship to be stripped and exile for anyone who signs a petition in favor of a state's secession.

"Mr. President, please sign an executive order such that each American citizen who signed a petition from any state to secede from the USA shall have their citizenship stripped and be peacefully deported," the full petition reads. 

The title of the petition is, "WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO: Strip the Citizenship from Everyone who Signed a Petition to Secede and Exile Them."

Click to expand...

W.H. Petition Calls for Stripping Citizenship and Exile for Anyone Who Signs Petition to Secede | The Weekly Standard*


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Trixie said:


> Texas could be taken over from within - that's my point. We could be 'voted' into Mexico shortly. There would be little need for any force involved.
> 
> Our government gives us no defense now - and truly never has, but now there is at least the implied, or pretended, idea that they might defend Texas. The federal government, with the aid of our state government, has set the stage for this by allowing so many foreigners into the state. They have been allowed and aided in staying here, buying property, getting an education, acquiring wealth to the detriment of the citizens of this state. It is actually happening all over the country, it's just more apparent in some states than others.
> 
> ...


mexico is too screwed up fighting their drug cartels. as for voting TX part of mexico you ight be assuming too much, as several of the most ardent, Texas loving, illegal hating Texans i know are latinos whose families fought against Santa Anna. even among the children & grandchildren of "border jumpers" when i was a kid, they were adamant they had NO desire to be mexicans again. additionally, excluding the drug trade TX has a larger & stronger economy than Mexico, more & better defense industries and more & better trained military & vets.


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

arabian knight said:


> *W.H. Petition Calls for Stripping Citizenship and Exile for Anyone Who Signs Petition to Secede[/B
> 
> 
> W.H. Petition Calls for Stripping Citizenship and Exile for Anyone Who Signs Petition to Secede | The Weekly Standard*


*

Won't happen,, What I undersatnd,,, the majority of those who signed the petition, only used their first name.
There was one guy who used his full name,, now he may be a bit in trouble.
He may be saying,, "Oh S**t about now.
His name is all over the news.
GH*


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## AR Cattails (Dec 22, 2005)

Where would those signing the petitions be exiled to?


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> mexico is too screwed up fighting their drug cartels. as for voting TX part of mexico you ight be assuming too much, as several of the most ardent, Texas loving, illegal hating Texans i know are latinos whose families fought against Santa Anna. even among the children & grandchildren of "border jumpers" when i was a kid, they were adamant they had NO desire to be mexicans again. additionally, excluding the drug trade TX has a larger & stronger economy than Mexico, more & better defense industries and more & better trained military & vets.


You are assuming too much. You are assuming I don't know anything about Texas, Texans, Texans of Mexican descent - or illegals. 

Remember the children of those Mexicans who fought against Santa Anna are Americans/Texans - not illegals. Do not try to make the assumption I don't know the difference.

Again, we are talking about the silly notion that Texas would secede and in that case we wouldn't have the military installations, etc.

Also, I'm not supposing Mexico would take Texas by force. There would be no reason for that, there would be enough here, and more would come, to simply vote us into Mexico.

I will assure you these are not the 'border jumpers' of the past. My husband said, 'These are not the people who raised me.'

As a previous president of Mexico said in a speech in Texas some years ago.
'I want to speak to my people in North America. There is going to be an election. I want you to vote and when you vote - vote with Mexico in mind.'


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Who, in the south, is not on the list??


Probably none...they're all red states. Not saying that's good or bad, mind you...just stating a fact.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

naturelover said:


> Will they be strong enough to stand against all others besides Mexico?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe they would be as strong as the military that Obama is creating, if not stronger. As for living in the past, I would prefer to stick with the things that made this nation the great nation is WAS, but no longer is. As for feeling sorry for us, don't worry about it. It's our country and we have always figured things out, we'll do so again.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Trixie said:


> Texas could be taken over from within - that's my point. We could be 'voted' into Mexico shortly. There would be little need for any force involved.
> 
> Our government gives us no defense now - and truly never has, *but now there is at least the implied, or pretended, idea that they might defend Texas*. The federal government, with the aid of our state government, has set the stage for this by allowing so many foreigners into the state. They have been allowed and aided in staying here, buying property, getting an education, acquiring wealth to the detriment of the citizens of this state. It is actually happening all over the country, it's just more apparent in some states than others.
> 
> ...


I think when Texas asked for help after the wild fires and got none from the government it would have shown you that you won't get any help from them.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

TheMartianChick said:


> Keep in mind that the petitions only represent some individuals that want to secede. They do not represent their states or the majority of the people within their states. America is changing and it needs to change...It has to change. It is ignorant to state that the people that voted for President Obama are takers...Many haven't taken anything except the time to pay their taxes.
> 
> Here's David Frum's take:
> 
> Conservatives, don't despair - CNN.com


I agree with his take, and I hate to see it falling back down to what it was in the sixties, or worse.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

More than just Texas now... think the count is up to 47...


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

arabian knight said:


> The number os states is now standing at 47 that want to secede and start their own government~!!!


DH and I were talking about this earlier this evening. He came through the door, all excited over the prospect of high drama, and announced that "x" number of "states" had petitioned for secession...

I asked him if, in fact, it is the STATES petitioning or is it just some people IN the states. He said it was his understanding that the STATES were petitioning.

So, someone clue me in here...is it the STATES or is it just some people IN the states?


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Trixie said:


> You are assuming too much. You are assuming I don't know anything about Texas, Texans, Texans of Mexican descent - or illegals.
> 
> Remember the children of those Mexicans who fought against Santa Anna are Americans/Texans - not illegals. Do not try to make the assumption I don't know the difference.


it's not about knowing the difference, you're assuming that TX ISN"T going to use it's guard & reserve forces to lock down the borders AND that they aren't going to do something proactive to remove illegals (which is where the native texican will be invaluable) AND that they aren't going to make an effort to ensure illegals don't vote




Trixie said:


> Again, we are talking about the silly notion that Texas would secede and in that case we wouldn't have the military installations, etc.


 you can't pick up the base and move it, the most you can do is removeth equipment & try to destroy the facilities. however, as with the collapse of the soviet union, when you have a peaceful dissolution the cost of destruction or excessive movement is untenable and none of the successor states have the capacity to support the full military establishment of the unified predecessor state. what all that means is that generally much of the hardware already in the state would likely stay in the state, ESPECIALLY anything in reserve centers & national guard armories. 
but you're right it's all theoretical since secession isn't likely.



Trixie said:


> Also, I'm not supposing Mexico would take Texas by force. There would be no reason for that, there would be enough here, and more would come, to simply vote us into Mexico.
> I will assure you these are not the 'border jumpers' of the past. My husband said, 'These are not the people who raised me.'
> As a previous president of Mexico said in a speech in Texas some years ago.
> 'I want to speak to my people in North America. There is going to be an election. I want you to vote and when you vote - vote with Mexico in mind.'


 again that's assuming TX DOESN"T expell most illegals, lock down their borders & tightly regulate voting


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

hippygirl said:


> DH and I were talking about this earlier this evening. He came through the door, all excited over the prospect of high drama, and announced that "x" number of "states" had petitioned for secession...
> 
> I asked him if, in fact, it is the STATES petitioning or is it just some people IN the states. He said it was his understanding that the STATES were petitioning.
> 
> So, someone clue me in here...is it the STATES or is it just some people IN the states?


people in the states NOT the states.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

How long could the admin keep afloat without the taxes earned from those states???? Think about it...the remainder of the states would have to take up the slack.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Trixie said:


> *Laura Zone 5* I don't understand about the computer and translation. Texas is essentially a two language state. We are not a bi-lingual state.
> 
> In New York City, I can't imagine how many languages are spoken - different languages.
> 
> When I thought of the Tower of Babel, I was thinking of the fact our government is allowing so many non-English speaking people into the country and not demanding or even encouraging them to learn English. The children do, but in Texas anyway, the state government bends over backwards to make sure most instructions are in two languages. Even with online translation, (which isn't available in most face to face situations) this does present many problems and even mistrust. This led me to wonder if this was not just another division our government was instituting.


Tower of Babel was built, by man, because man was asserting himself ABOVE God.
They all spoke the same language.
God came down and confused their language, and scattered them.
Today......we have devices on our smart phones/ipads/ipods/computers that will INSTANTLY translate.
So, I meet you on the street, and you speak Chinese. I speak Arabic.
You say "where is the bathroom" in Chinese 'to my phone' that is on the 'translate' site. 
AND my phone will translate what you just said in Chinese to my language in Arabic, right there, instantly.
No one HAS to learn another language......our 'devices' will do it for us.
Hence, really no matter what we speak?
If we have the translating device?
We can all be understood........
The Tower of Babel was being built because man was rebelling against God, directly disobeying Him and doing things their own way. 
The confusing of the languages and the scattering of the people was Gods Judgement on their disobedience......
That was the point I was making!:goodjob:



beccachow said:


> How long could the admin keep afloat without the taxes earned from those states????
> Think about it...the remainder of the states would have to take up the slack.


I would like to see:

OF the states that are squawking.......

1. How much do they receive in Fed programs (food stamps, Section 8 housing, SSI, WIC, Disability, VA, etc.)

2. IF that state withdraws.........now what do you do with the 5th generation welfare recipient?

3. If the numbers bear out that the states withdrawing are HIGH welfare states, wouldn't that favor the government? Less money they have to 'give away' and now it becomes that states problem?
Shoot......the government could pay off the debt in a week if the welfare states and the states over run by illegals withdrew?

4. What do the states do with the legit "on the dole" types: Like truly disabled? Or the elderly? How about Veterans? How will a state that is already broke and suckin' the fed govnt dry take care of it's own?

IMHO in 8 months?
Yeah, no one will be talking about this.......


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

FWIW....the question of individual state military capability is moot.

The FED has been using treaty-making power, foolishly given by the states and the people, to sell/sign sovereignty over to foreign powers for centuries.

I don't see that a foreign invasion, by force, could do anything but improve reality as it currently stands.

Better to have 20% of the original population, standing, bloodied but free.....than to have the entire population signed over as chattel cattle and slaughtered for their meat.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Tower of Babel was built, by man, because man was asserting himself ABOVE God.
> They all spoke the same language.
> God came down and confused their language, and scattered them.
> Today......we have devices on our smart phones/ipads/ipods/computers that will INSTANTLY translate.
> ...


Laura, that would certainly make it hard on those relying on Social Security and Medicare. I guess the current working population would start paying all of their income tax and Medicare-type payments to the states in which they resided. Since the petitions are froms just residents of the states and not the state government petitioning to leave the union, the secessions probably won't take place. However, in my opinion, the petitions are a very potent protest against the present administration.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

linn said:


> Laura, that would certainly make it hard on those relying on Social Security and Medicare. I guess the current working population would start paying all of their income tax and Medicare-type payments to the states in which they resided. Since the petitions are froms just residents of the states and not the state government petitioning to leave the union, the secessions probably won't take place. *However, in my opinion, the petitions are a very potent protest against the present administration*.


Yep.
And they are all sitting in their offices in Washington, laughing their arces off at the people....
Those folks who signed the petition made it SO MUCH EASIER for the government to track those who oppose them.......SO much easier.

If people want change, and want success in that change?
They need to stop thinking and acting with their emotions.......


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

*Laura Zone 5* I understand you are saying those devices exist, but is everyone going to have one? Maybe in time, but not now.

I'm just speaking from my own experience and with only two languages involved. Also, some of us while not speaking the language can sign and say a few words. It has caused a lot of confusion, distrust, etc. It has caused our state to spend money printing signs, legal papers, instructions, etc., in two languages.

Again, I know the story of the tower, but my thoughts were along the line of the effect of people speaking different languages and that our government is not above using that to their advantage. 

Just a thought - just a thought ---


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

I think it is quite possible the politicians are laughing about this. It is not beyond my belief they actually started this. This could play right into their hands if it got going strong.

I don't think it is very potent as far as a people protest - it may be very potent depending on how the government reacts to it.

You know if the states or the people in the state really wanted a change, why not make a change in their state houses. Get rid of those who have been playing footsie with the federal government and get busy doing things that is best for the people. It won't happen in Texas, but it might work in smaller states.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

linn said:


> Laura, that would certainly make it hard on those relying on Social Security and Medicare. I guess the current working population would start paying all of their income tax and Medicare-type payments to the states in which they resided. Since the petitions are froms just residents of the states and not the state government petitioning to leave the union, the secessions probably won't take place. However, in my opinion, the petitions are a very potent protest against the present administration.


I don't see that the petitions are anything more than people blowing off steam. 50 years ago, there was no internet so if someone was mad about something the government did, they went to the local bar or diner and spouted off about it. If they really wanted to spread the message, then they would write a letter to the editor...That is about it. Today, with the internet, people can blog about it, post about it on internet forums, send an angry tweet as long as it doesn't take too many characters, etc... Being able to start a petition on a government website is just a sign of changing technology. It doesn't mean anything more than someone spouting off at the local bar... 

All of the people that signed a petition are free to leave the country at any time. Chances are good that wherever they go, they will have the universal healthcare that they rail against and far fewer opportunities than they have here. As for taking the land, property and fellow residents of their state with them, well...They can just put that thought to rest. I haven't seen a single petition yet that indicates that the majority of their state-mates agree with them. I'm sure that someone, ANYONE could start a petition to ban women from the workforce or roll things back to 1802...It wouldn't make it right.

Fewer red states would mean a lot fewer expenses for the blue states that pay far more into the Federal government. Despite all of that, I'm willing to help to support those red states through my taxes. After all, I've been doing it for a long time!


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## Lonesomelov (Jul 14, 2009)

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet but:

According to Confederate States of America, (no I am not a member) there is no reason to petition since the CSA never actually rejoined the Union, they have just been occupied all this time. Therefore, no need to ask permission, just do it. 

"States ask Congresses permission to be admitted to the union, they do NOT ask permission to exit the union. The Central government is NOT a party to the Constitution of 1787/1789; The Central government is simply a creation of the Constitution. Each of our Sovereign States that seceded from the union in 1860 and 1861 did so as SOVEREIGN States, thereby asserting their sovereignty. They did not petition, there was no need for such foolishness, they simply asserted the Sovereign powers granted them by their citizens.

It is unnecessary today for any of our Confederate States to secede from the United States of America; these acts were accomplished in the years of 1860 and 1861. Each of our Confederate States that seceded in the years of 1860 and 1861 currently exist under the occupation of a foreign National government, (The United States Inc). The current National government in the District of Columbia, and each of its administrative defacto districts (incorrectly referred to as &#8220;States&#8221 are simply that, DEFACTO. &#8220;To withdraw from the United States of America today and create a NEW government&#8221;, would be to establish yet another defacto government where one already exists in place of our dejure governments. The correct LEGAL path to follow is to simply restore each confederate States dejure government, and Constitutions as they were before 1865, and at that point immediately amend those dejure Constitutions, to form the government that the Confederate citizens of each of our Confederate States choose to institute among themselves, otherwise each will still have a defacto government in the space where their dejure governments belong, with their dejure 1861 governments and constitutions having legal claim to remove the defacto government that exists in their place. In other words the issue still remains unsettled. It is a matter of settling the unsettled and doing things the proper, legal, lawful and right way.

As our President Jefferson Davis said&#8230;&#8230;.
&#8220;A question settled by violence, or in disregard of law,
must remain unsettled forever.&#8221;

He also said&#8230;&#8230;
&#8220;The principle for which we contend is bound to reassert itself, though it may be at another time and in another form.&#8221; 
Until the issue is properly settled it will reassert itself. Each of our Confederate States MUST FOLLOW THE PROPER PATH TO END THE OCCUPATION. THIS IS WHY THE INTERIM GOVERNMENT FOR THE CONFEDERATE STATES OF AMERICA EXISTS. http://csagov.org/"


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

TheMartianChick said:


> Fewer red states would mean a lot fewer expenses for the blue states that pay far more into the Federal government. Despite all of that, I'm willing to help to support those red states through my taxes. After all, I've been doing it for a long time!


This may just be blowing off steam - it may be more - 

This idea of red and blue states just boggles my mind. 

We are supposed to be a nation of free people, thinking people. When, and more to the point, WHY, do we allow others to put a tag on us? They have now plugged us all into the Republican/Democrat hole, into the conservative/liberal hole, red state/blue state. 

Why in the world are we allowing others to define us like that - I don't get it.
I don't live in a red or blue state - I live in a state - period. We have people who believe and vote one way on some things and another way on others.

But why assume that because a state is blue - therefore Republican (is that right), it doesn't get plenty of government monies. Remember farmers get tons of money from the government, healthcare corporations get tons of money from the government, lots of military bases in our state, lots of home loans, government grants, etc. -- and on and on and on.

My gosh, some people want to secede and they can't even declare themselves free from those that wish to pigeonhole them ----


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Trixie said:


> This may just be blowing off steam - it may be more -
> 
> This idea of red and blue states just boggles my mind.
> 
> ...


 I guess that I wasn't as clear in my post as I meant to be... I believe that as a nation we all support eachother. Red state (Republican) or blue state (Democratic), it really doesn't matter. Every state has its strengths and weaknesses. I didn't coin the terms red and blue to describes the political leanings of a state. I used them here as a point of reference.

All states send money into the federal government. However, some states receive back more than they pay in. Historically, for every dollar paid in...Republican leaning states receive more than a dollar back from the Federal government. Democratic-leaning states tend to receive less than a dollar back for each dollar paid in. There are exceptions to the rule, though. I will see if I can find one of the maps that better illustrates it.

This site has a graphic that shows it, but I prefer the ones that are mapped:

http://thecentristword.wordpress.com/2012/01/26/red-states-addiction-to-welfare-a-gop-dilema/

Here is one with a map:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/08/americas-fiscal-union

This one is a slideshow:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/49200137/States_With_the_Most_Federal_Funding

This one shows the map in terms of red and blue:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/04/the_red_state_ripoff.html


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

MG - that is no longer true.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

wy_white_wolf said:


> MG - that is no longer true.


which just reinforces the problem, 13 states get back less than they send to the fed, 1 breaks even and the other 36 get more than they send. not all of thoe 13 states are the biggest GDPs either and not all the 36 are the smallest GDPs. it simply shows that the fed is robbing peter to pay paul and we all know that isn't working in the long run.
so WHY aren't the 36 growing their economies? what exactly is hampering their growth? would they experience a net benefit or net loss if they were able to secede? why?
now the 13 states, how much better off would they be if they didn't have to send money to the fed?
now w/ all the social programs being pushed how much worse will it become? how much more damage to the economy, how many better paying full time jobs will be lost & replaced with lower paying part time jobs? how many jobs will be exported?


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

MartinChick, I bet DH and I have paid in as much, if not more income tax and self-emplyment tax than you and for a lot more years. I doubt that you support us. Who knows it may be the other way around. As for me, I am collecting a teacher's pension from the MSTA organization of MO. Unless you are from MO and are a teacher, I know you aren't supporting that.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

TheMartianChick said:


> I guess that I wasn't as clear in my post as I meant to be... I believe that as a nation we all support eachother. Red state (Republican) or blue state (Democratic), it really doesn't matter. Every state has its strengths and weaknesses. I didn't coin the terms red and blue to describes the political leanings of a state. I used them here as a point of reference.


That's OK - I just don't understand the idea of calling any state red or blue just because the majority of people in that state, who voted, voted for a certain party - especially in a presidential election. Surely, we know from talking to people - in person and on line - people have varied reasons for voting the way they do and many may believe - or espouse - a certain principle, but don't seem to really live it. There are always 'exeptions' don't you know.

This has been around for quite some time - but we still manage to be discussing it - using that as a frame of reference. That, to me, is the sad and kinda frightening part.

When we adopt those kinds of things as a point of discussion, we are allowing our discussion to be channeled in a certain way. 

Just because that many people voted one way or the other, doesn't signify there are more who believe in the democratic/republican ideas - for those who think there is a difference. It simply means that many went to the polls and voted in an election - nothing more and nothing less. 

Remember the monies go back to the states because the congresscritters give it to them as payoffs to their contributors or take it back as 'pork' to buy votes. Maybe that's what we should be discussing - why it is so - who gets these monies.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

wy_white_wolf said:


> MG - that is no longer true.


Thanks for the link.

Here is another link with interesting info.:
http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/

According to this link there are 4,300,000 Americans on welfare and 46,700,000 that receive food stampls. You can bet the majority of those people voted for Obama because conservatives want to decrease welfare and food stamps.

Here is another interesting link showing that some of the states with the highest percentages of welfare recipients are blue.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/01/25/us/20090126-welfare-table.html

If you are on welfare, then you are supposedly are not making enough to pay income tax. So that means all these welfare recipients are not paying federal or state tax, but are living off the system. I don't think they are supporting me.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Tower of Babel was built, by man, because man was asserting himself ABOVE God.
> They all spoke the same language.
> God came down and confused their language, and scattered them.
> Today......we have devices on our smart phones/ipads/ipods/computers that will INSTANTLY translate.
> ...


In answer to your list of questions, the Federal Government was NEVER suppose to do those things. All that was suppose to have been under the States discretion. The states would be better able to handle their own without all the money they have to send to the federal government.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Sonshine said:


> In answer to your list of questions, the Federal Government was NEVER suppose to do those things. All that was suppose to have been under the States discretion. The states would be better able to handle their own without all the money they have to send to the federal government.


keep in mind also a lot of the money states send to fed in taxes goes to feed the federal bureacracy (sp). how much more would state social programs have to help those who NEED it if they weren't paying for the salaries & benefits of federal employees in DC.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Pops2 said:


> keep in mind also a lot of the money states send to fed in taxes goes to feed the federal bureacracy (sp). how much more would state social programs have to help those who NEED it if they weren't paying for the salaries & benefits of federal employees in DC.


And all the unneccessary programs that have nothing to do with helping those who need it.


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## snoozy (May 10, 2002)

According to data at wikipedia, voter turnout is lowest in the lowest 20% economic strata, and is lowest among the least educated. Which means, that welfare recipients should have the lowest election participation rates, so why don't y'all get off their case?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> In answer to your list of questions, the Federal Government was NEVER suppose to do those things. All that was suppose to have been under the States discretion. The states would be better able to handle their own without all the money they have to send to the federal government.


And I agree....
However, because we have not done things, as we should have been doing things, and we have been doing things SO wrong for SO long......my question is how do withdrawn states plan to deal with it?


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Rick Perry has officially flip-flopped again and says that he does not support secession for Texas. 

Ok fellow Texans....who are we going to replace Perry with? This is pretty important and I think we ought to start talking about it.

Current signatures for Texas.....102,200!!!!! :happy:


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

linn said:


> . You can bet the majority of those people voted for Obama because conservatives want to decrease welfare and food stamps.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are on welfare, then you are supposedly are not making enough to pay income tax. So that means all these welfare recipients are not paying federal or state tax, but are living off the system. I don't think they are supporting me.


I'm not sure what a conservative is these days - it has changed over the years. Now, perhaps a lot of people want to decrease welfare and food stamps - but our so called 'conservative' politicians do not. If they did, they would have done it by now. 

Perhaps the welfare people aren't supporting you, but - but their spending of that money a lot of money goes into the pockets of big corporations, and politicians - and in turn, those who work for those companies. Remember, the money doesn't stop with the welfare people - it just moves through their hands. They are just a conduit to give money to farmers, food processors, grocery industry, healthcare industry, etc., etc.

That's the reason, we are not going to see any Republicans actually doing anything about welfare - other than change the name. They are not going to cut their own throat.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

TxMex said:


> Current signatures for Texas.....102,200!!!!! :happy:


Cool..... almost half as much that signed the idiotic petition for Target (in regards to Thanksgiving opening or something). Keep it up Texas, you might beat the Target petition......


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## JMD_KS (Nov 20, 2007)

If the sore losers don't like the way our country is run, they can always leave... get your toys & leave the sandbox, but you ain't takin the sandbox with ya. The people voted:The End.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

That's the way we felt when you guys were whining about Bush, but it seems you are all still around.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

JMD_KS said:


> If the sore losers don't like the way our country is run, they can always leave... get your toys & leave the sandbox, but you ain't takin the sandbox with ya. The people voted:The End.


Right. 

Roughly half the country.

How arrogant...... for either "party" or position.

If this isn't evidence of what the party system has done to the country, there ain't any.

Maybe there needs to be a civil war just to eliminate the pop culture of knee jerk politics.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

JMD_KS said:


> If the sore losers don't like the way our country is run, they can always leave... get your toys & leave the sandbox, but you ain't takin the sandbox with ya. The people voted:The End.


Better be careful there!

Their "toys" happen to be the States.. They don't belong to you or the Feds...
The States also own the sandbox, not you or the Feds..

Or did you forget the 10A, for starters..

Be careful what you wish for...You may just get it!


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> And I agree....
> However, because we have not done things, as we should have been doing things, and we have been doing things SO wrong for SO long......my question is how do withdrawn states plan to deal with it?


A lot of the problems in our current government is because "we the people" let them do what they wanted, with no regard to our constitution. Most of these things started way before any of us were old enough to vote and the system had already been so corrupted by the time we could vote that even though we have tried to change it, we have failed to get it back to the original vision. If those who still respect the constitution and what the founding fathers tried to do had the chance to start over and make the politicians stick with what the constitution lays out we would have a better chance. Right now many of the newer voters grew up with nothing but public education, which IMO is just an indoctrination center. Our news media has the same agenda as the progressives, so those who don't search out the truth because they were taught this is how it's suppose to be will keep electing those that are progressive and believe the constitution is obsolete. I guess I look at this as a do over. A chance to get back on track to what the founding fathers envisioned and to what made this country one of the greatest nations in the world.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

akane said:


> I think raising their own military might be more difficult than some think. Those wanting to join the military tend to be very patriotic toward the US government.



I disagree.


When I joined the Marines, I was not thinking about protecting the government, I was thinking about protecting the citizens. Virtually all the Marines I served with would likely tell you the same thing.


Tim


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

snoozy said:


> Yes, isn't it a wonder that there are that many people in the state who can sign their names? In 2003, the illiteracy rate of Texas was estimated to be 19%. :stirpot:



California was 23% and NY was 22%....so this proves what???


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

tarbe said:


> California was 23% and NY was 22%....so this proves what???


 that texans are better educated :nana:


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

tarbe said:


> I disagree.
> 
> 
> When I joined the Marines, I was not thinking about protecting the government, I was thinking about protecting the citizens. Virtually all the Marines I served with would likely tell you the same thing.
> ...


I wasn't in the Marines, but the Air Force, and it's the same. It was about protecting the constitution and the citizens.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Maybe I am different from most but when I went into the military I never gave a thought about country, constitution, or citizens.
I was at a point in my life that I had to do something and the military looked like the solution.


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