# The Buckbuster? Bucking Horse Help



## JustinRobinsREO

Just picked up a horse that a bucking problem. No ryhme or reason...on the trail she goes into a full on buck. 

I was thinking about getting the buck buster to help teach her not to buck. What are your thoughts and suggestions? Thanks!

Here is the site: http://buckinghorsetrainer.com

Here is the youtube video of the product: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFecqBYqNiI[/ame]


It is pricey...so I wanted some opinions first (It's $199).


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## oregon woodsmok

Generally, they buck because someone has taught them that it is how they can get out of work.

Stay on a couple of times and maybe give them a spanking for it and they will usually stop because they aren't getting any benefit from it.


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## JustinRobinsREO

I agree, but this one is throwing a good buck with some spins. Having a hard time staying on this one.


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## dizzy

Have you had the horse check for any physical problem that might be causing them to buck? And, are you sure the saddle fits properly? Both are reasons for a horse to buck. If you have and everything is OK, I'd probably take the horse back to ground zero, and restart them. 

I have a friend that had a horse that started bucking. They sent him to a trainer, and found that he had some holes in his training. They basically restarted him, and he's now winning in the show ring.

I'm not a huge fan of gadgets. Not saying this is the case in your situation, but often times gadgets are doing nothing but covering up for either poor training, or a rider that is causing a problem. For most people, when a horse is acting up, it's a case of using a harsher bit, bigger spurs, a martingale, etc when often times the problem is caused by something they're doing wrong and the horse is the one to suffer.


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## dkrabec

I agree with dizzy above. While I understand the frustration , fear and danger the bucking brings I don't think a gadget is the way to go. Bucking is generally a learned habit, created out of fear and disrespect and once they know they can they can buck their rider off it becomes their way of taking control. The holes in the training need to be addressed and fixed, then the bucking will go away. I don't think the above gadget above will teach them not to buck, it will teach them that when I have this gadget on bucking is uncomfortable for me, and they did not explain how it is supposed to work. From the looks it just makes the horse uncomfortable to drop his head, but your going to cause other problems and he will find another way to get you off, say rearing. By going back to basics on the ground and starting him like a colt would be started would be a much safer option, and will fill in any holes in his training. If you don't feel confident to do that then I would recommend getting help from a trainer who does not use this gadget, and believes in fundamental ground work.

Good luck, be safe.


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## gunsmithgirl

I think you would be better off re-starting the horse with proper training. As said above even if it does stop him from bucking other bad habits will surface in it's place.


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## CraterCove

I agree with the restart idea. I hate gadgets, in the kitchen or with animals. It's a crutch and a short cut and doesn't actually fix the problem and (at least in the kitchen) leads to more clean up that just doing things the correct way to begin with. I have had luck with horses that buck if I can get them to run when the give start to the bucking. They can't buck near as well while running and if they are bucking to get out of work well you are taking it now as a cue to work them hard... horses are smart, they get those sorts of things.

But also, wouldn't hurt to get a chiropractor out to check joints and make sure none of your existing equipment is causing pain.


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## SFM in KY

I'm going to be a dissenting vote here on the 'retraining' ... I've ridden a LOT of western ranch horses over the years and most of them would buck if the circumstances were right and they felt like it, even the thoroughly trained ranch horses. Mostly pre-Natural Horseman training days but I've also been on a couple of ranch horses trained with NH methods that have bucked with me as well.

My opinion (and it is just that) is that the majority of these horses bucked because it was A) fun B) challenging the rider or C) trying to avoid work ... not because they were improperly trained, the saddle didn't fit properly or they had something hurting them. I think in all the years I've been riding I've only had one horse that bucked because of pain. The horse I rode from the time I was 10 until I was in my late teens bucked me off routinely every time I got to thinking I knew something ... she never bucked with anyone else and she definitely bucked to keep me humble. Her first colt was a gelding we kept as a ranch horse and he bucked quite often with every cowboy that rode him ... I rode him quite often and under some 'iffy' circumstances ... and he never bucked with me. I'd feel him gather himself and I'd yell ... he'd apparently remember I was riding him rather than a cowboy and it wasn't enough of a challenge for him and would relax.

For whatever reason, I never could stay on a horse that bucked ... if their head disappeared I might as well start looking for a landing place. I rigged a gimmick for horses I knew (or expected) to buck that was similar to an overcheck on a buggy horse ... prevented them from getting their head down so if they did buck, they couldn't get their head away from me and I had a better chance of staying on. 

I used it mostly on young horses in training that were likely to 'blow up' in a new situation and on a few old ranch horses that I knew would try to buck the first ride or two in the spring. It worked as well as most 'gimmicks' do, not 100% but most of the time and helpful with some horses ... but mine was made from parts of an old buggy harness bridle and baler twine and didn't cost $199. :happy2:


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## JustinRobinsREO

I have already begun the re-training. She has no pain and saddle fits proper. I've been able to locate the problem through the re-training. It is when anything touches her side...AKA your heel or stirrups. 

For the next little while I am planning on working with her on the ground and the saddle on... bringing the stirrups up and letting them come down until the pressure and feel doesn't bother her. We will see how that turns out.

I am still leaning towards the "gadget" or something I can make that is similar. The concept to me doesn't appear to "cover" anything up. Yes it seems to make them un-comfortable if they choose to buck, but isn't that most natural horsemanship training? Allowing the horse to choose, but making the right choice more comfortable?

Not trying to argue, just questioning. However I really appreciate everyone's opinions and value your input. Will keep everyone posted and take a little from everyone. All great advice. Thank you!


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## CraterCove

My personal preference is to never have metal buckles on any sort near a horse's head. That and how restrictive the contraption looks concerns me. If you do choose to use it let us know how it goes. I know I would sure be interested in someone's experience.


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## Maura

If a horse can't get his head down, he can't buck. This is why horses are sometimes ridden with a strap at the back of their neck, like a carriage horse has. This is what the buckbuster halter does. You could make it yourself with a length of leather or rope. It is fine for a short term solution where you have to ride that horse and don't have time yet to retrain. That said, I think you should do what everyone else has written and restart him, after a vet chiropractor has adjusted him and you otherwise make sure he has no physical problems.


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## Lisa in WA

CraterCove said:


> My personal preference is to never have metal buckles on any sort near a horse's head. That and how restrictive the contraption looks concerns me. If you do choose to use it let us know how it goes. I know I would sure be interested in someone's experience.


Bridles and halters have buckles on them.


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## CraterCove

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Bridles and halters have buckles on them.


Not any that I use ~shrug~


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## Lisa in WA

CraterCove said:


> Not any that I use ~shrug~



you ride in a rope halter?


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## CraterCove

An old rope and rawhide bosal which is kind of a family heirloom (which would be my go to but my mother is a hoarder and is afraid I would sell it and it's been ten years trying to coax her to give it back) and yeah, a rope halter with rope reins. It's a personal choice and I doubt has much to do with the original subject.


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## Cheribelle

I don't know, I think if I had a bucker that I really wanted to keep, it might be worth a try. Broken bones cost!


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## Wolfy-hound

If you use the gimmack WHILE also retraining him from the ground up(without the gadget) I don't see anything really wrong with trying it.

But I sincerely don't think it would solve the issue of the bucking. Since you're retaining the horse and have IDed the issue(the sides/stirrups), I think you'll probably have things under control and then not need any gadget, so I wouldn't pay that kind of price for something you could rig yourself.

I never had issues with buckles on heads myself. I have used rope headstalls and woven headstalls that didn't HAVE buckles, but simply because they were nice, I liked the design, they were available. I've used plenty with buckles too. 

I did once have a mare that would randomly buck you off, no reason, no way to NOT come off. I worked with her a ton, tried everything I could think of, did my best with her... we tried two other really experienced trainers, both bucked off same way. We could never find a trigger. She had no pain or injury issues. She just DID it once in a while. I almost NEVER bucked off a horse.. but never stayed ON her when she bucked.

Eventually we gave up and sold her as a non-ridable breeder. She made awesome foals with all of her beauty and sweet nature that DIDN'T buck at random times.


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## dkrabec

JustinRobinsREO said:


> I have already begun the re-training. She has no pain and saddle fits proper. I've been able to locate the problem through the re-training. It is when anything touches her side...AKA your heel or stirrups.
> 
> For the next little while I am planning on working with her on the ground and the saddle on... bringing the stirrups up and letting them come down until the pressure and feel doesn't bother her. We will see how that turns out.
> 
> I am still leaning towards the "gadget" or something I can make that is similar. The concept to me doesn't appear to "cover" anything up. Yes it seems to make them un-comfortable if they choose to buck, but isn't that most natural horsemanship training? Allowing the horse to choose, but making the right choice more comfortable?
> 
> Not trying to argue, just questioning. However I really appreciate everyone's opinions and value your input. Will keep everyone posted and take a little from everyone. All great advice. Thank you!


That is great that you have been able to find the cause of the bucking, and that you are desensitizing her to it. Once you get her used to the stirrups flapping close up, you can tie a soft rope to the stirrup and lunge her, while she is lunging flap the stirrup using the attached rope, that will really help you gauge if she is really relaxed and comfortable with things hitting her sides.

I would also practice one rein/emergency stops so if she does go to bucking while your riding her you can get her head up and around, and disengage her hindquarters. 

Best of luck and be safe.


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## wr

I would consider it a tool or device but would not consider it a training method and while it may help in the interim, nothing replaces good solid training.


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## JustinRobinsREO

Again thank you for all the responses. After careful consideration I have decided against the tool, because it is counterproductive. I teach our horses to move away from pressure. Studying the product more I have learned that it teaches the opposite. 

I will continue with ground work, games, and desensitizing her (great advice about using the string on the stirrup while on the lunge line). Then after I feel she is ready I will snub her up close to another horse. Work with her and my boot heels that way she can get more used to it and not have the chance to buck.

Thank you again for all the input!


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## dizzy

I know when I was saddle training Misty, I did a ton of work w/the stirrups. I'd bang them against her side, tug on them, etc, all to get her used to the idea of them being there, and not something to be afraid of. So, what you're doing sounds like a good way to go.


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## chewie

panniers filled with junk, pony for a few rides. or, tie 2 tires together with a rope, but put a loop in the rope. loop goes over saddle horn. round pen, horse generally will buck, but they seem to realize it ain't getting them nowhere. they play out and its over. get on and ride.

i would be concerned with that gadget--i wouldn't want to take it out of a flat arena and if the horse knows its off you'd wind up getting dumped if you left the pen. if they can't get their head down, hills, water, even just tripping over an ant hill would be a bad thing.


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## animaldoc88

Interesting thread. Bucking horses are dangerous and undesirable. As mentioned in other comments, poor saddle fit and physical/medical concerns should be ruled out first. Medical isssues would include any pelvic/spinal column problems, kidney problems, reproductive issues (ie ovarian cysts in mares), hernias, etc. Have your horse examined by a veterinarian and/or chiropractor.

If the saddle fit and physical exam are not the apparent cause of the bucking, then return to some consistent ground work and desensitising exercises. Use plastic bags, tarps, feed bags, saddle blankets, long lead ropes, spray bottles with water, pool noodles, etc. Basically, you want to sack that horse out until he/she is compltely bored with you and yawning in your face.
As dizzy says, lots of stirrup work. Take a lariat and attach it to the saddle horn. As you longe the horse with the horn as the point of contact, pull on the lariat intermittently to move the saddle slightly. This will simulate movement of a rider in the saddle. Then take the lariat and run it down through the stirrup so you can create lots of stirrup movement as you move the horse. I also grab the stirrup while standing beside the horse and slap it so the stirrup fender and stirrup leather makes a loud snapping noise. I also hang a large plastic boat bouy on each side of the saddle to simulate leg movement. Tie them up front first so they dangle around the horse's elbows, and then tie them further back on the saddle so they dangle around the flanks.

No gadgets required, just good solid training on consecutive days to help reinforce the horse's respect and trust in you as a leader. If you horse bucks while out on the trail, immediately following the episode, make the horse do some work in circles or back the horse up. This says to the horse that if you are going to buck then it will be followed by some form of "work" where I'm going to make the horse move its feet under my direction.

Good luck with your training, Peter.


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## bronc

speakIng from years of starting colts and fIxIng problem horses I've found that more times than not, if a horse has learned he can throw you , he'll try it again at some point when he's not getting his way. Training will help but riding through his temper tantrum is best. If your not confident you can do It , then find someone who can. Best of luck.


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## where I want to

I'm not even going to read the other posts. Get rid of her- sooner or later you will be distracted riding her and she will send you flying. No horse is worth a permanent injury.
There are horses whose reaction to any irritation is to buck and buck hard. It is not neccessarily anything that they have learned by dumping someone- it's just part of their nature like some horses bite and some horse kick when they react to something,
I had a mare who would do that- I thought is was a training issue until I saw a small pinecone fall off a tree while she was quietly grazing in a field and plunk her on the butt. She took off on a bucking jag like it was a mountain lion. For minutes. She was not really mean-that was just her reaction.


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## SFM in KY

where I want to said:


> There are horses whose reaction to any irritation is to buck and buck hard.


The old ranch horses were like this and I rode a lot of them. I was never so amazed in my life as when I went to Spain and started 3 year old Andalusians under saddle ... they actually did not seem to be able to buck! In the four years I lived in Spain and worked with the Andalusians and Andalusian crosses, I never had one buck ... ever.


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## CraterCove

where I want to said:


> I'm not even going to read the other posts. Get rid of her- sooner or later you will be distracted riding her and she will send you flying. No horse is worth a permanent injury.
> There are horses whose reaction to any irritation is to buck and buck hard. It is not neccessarily anything that they have learned by dumping someone- it's just part of their nature like some horses bite and some horse kick when they react to something,
> I had a mare who would do that- I thought is was a training issue until I saw a small pinecone fall off a tree while she was quietly grazing in a field and plunk her on the butt. She took off on a bucking jag like it was a mountain lion. For minutes. She was not really mean-that was just her reaction.



Get rid of her? I may take some flack for this, and I'm ready for it but get rid of her to where? If you are saying that bucking can't be fixed, that it's not a problem with handling and past training (I consider each and every interaction a horse has with a human to be a training experience for them, they learn something from it for good or ill) are you trying to say it's a bad horse? Because I'll have to say, in my experience there really are no bad horses, just people with bad horsemanship. He just got her and might not have any idea of what's happened to her in past.

I'm really wondering where one 'gets rid of' a horse that bucks. If it is being proposed once a bucker always a bucker and not worth the probability of injury then where could you get rid of the horse to that you are not then responsible for further injury or death or abuse of the horse. 

I see the horse that bucks in the field at the drop of a pine cone on her behind a product of being taught by it's handlers that the solution to surprise is to buck. 

(BTW found my big girl undies today and put them on already. )


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## sidepasser

I took my bucker to a professional trainer and traded him in on a well mannered mare that does not buck at the drop of a hat. 

If the trainer had not taken him, I would have had him put to sleep. Plain and simple, not all horses are able to be "saved and retrained", some should be owned by professionals only and others that are clearly dangerous should be put to sleep.


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## CraterCove

sidepasser said:


> I took my bucker to a professional trainer and traded him in on a well mannered mare that does not buck at the drop of a hat.
> 
> If the trainer had not taken him, I would have had him put to sleep. Plain and simple, not all horses are able to be "saved and retrained", some should be owned by professionals only and others that are clearly dangerous should be put to sleep.



That is the answer I was looking for actually. Unfortunately (in my experience which is far from all knowing) most dangerous horses I've met were made dangerous by someone. But the responsible thing is to put them down, not 'get rid of them'.

It was good fortune for the horse and for you you could trade with a trainer.


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## where I want to

Every horse has their own reaction to irritations- some plant themselves , some kick out, some toss their head, some paw, some run backwards or spin or simply bolt ,and some buck. The intensity with which they hold to their reactions and the effort they put into them determines how safe they will ever be . If a horse just gives a buck or two in response to an understandable frustration- that horse can probably be taught to listen without getting upset. 
A horse that goes on a huge strings of bucks in frustration over minor issues will do it again sooner or later over something or another no matter how well trained otherwise. 
Anyone who has never looked a a group of unbroken horses might not note that they have these "tendencies" long before anyone ever puts a thing on their back. 
The "pinecone" mare was just three, had not been more than backed when I got her- no one had ever been bucked off. She was born to buck. It's just what she did. She offered to break loose whenever she was nervous over something. 
I rode her with great tact for a year and a half and was able to short circuit her reaction successfully. She was very willing to learn and did well. 
Then one day I was riding with a friend and got distracted. I irritated her by pulling her up with a steady pull rather than my usual series of half halts and feather touches. She sent me flying and took off bucking as I laid in a fetal ball on the ground. 
When my friend caught up with the mare a mile away, she was still bucking, with a circle of people around her trying to get hold of her. Which they couldn't because she would only let me come up to her. 
She was sold as a brood mare very cheap with full disclosure as to her behavior- and I probably shouldn't have even allowed that- I bet that at least some of her offspring have the same behavior. 
But you go right ahead and pull those big girl britches right up- just remember to learn how to do it sittng in a wheelchair. I was lucky that it just have an achey hip to remember her by.


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## CraterCove

You had been riding her for a year and a half when she was just three? Or she was three when you got her and had ridden her for a year and a half without this kind of incident? (just clarifying really) I'm not saying that you didn't do exactly the right thing in your situation and with that horse. I doubt that bucking something that can really be traced genetically, however. 

I don't really know the situation as I wasn't there but I'd say that whatever group of people was circling her (horses are prey animals and they get a bit nervous with such actions) had her riled up again rather than still. I just usually look towards a person rather than blame a horse for such things. Just the description makes me wonder if she wasn't being handled with too heavy a bit for her and too heavy a hand. It really sounds (just from your description which isn't much to judge by) like it was a pain and flight reaction not a minor irritation reaction. Horses, like dogs give loads of non verbal cues all the time that are easily missed if one isn't looking for them. 

It's not the case for every horse, once a bucker always a bucker. And as for the wheelchair comment? Well that's a chance one takes any time they choose to work with any horse or any animal, thinking otherwise will land you in a wheelchair faster than acknowledging the danger factor and being mindful at all times.


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## wr

CraterCove, I don't disagree that equine behavior is often (not always) learned and I kept my kids fed for a lot of years by retraining problem horses. I do feel that an ethical trainer has an obligation to advise if the horse is suitable for the owner or any rider at all. I'm afraid that even if man caused the problem, some simply can't be sorted out and others simply love to buck and do it very well.


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## CraterCove

wr said:


> CraterCove, I don't disagree that equine behavior is often (not always) learned and I kept my kids fed for a lot of years by retraining problem horses. I do feel that an ethical trainer has an obligation to advise if the horse is suitable for the owner or any rider at all. I'm afraid that even if man caused the problem, some simply can't be sorted out and others simply love to buck and do it very well.


I think that problems that aren't human caused are inadvertently human caused, not culling well enough, breeding horses that ought not be bred, so on and so forth. I suppose in the broadest sense I really do blame humans for all of horse-kind's ills since we've taken them out of the wild and 'engineered' them and now expect them to exist without incident in our modern world. 

Horses are a gamble. And finding a good ethical trainer is really, really hard, unfortunately. Finding an ethical horse seller is... well rare as hen's teeth? I don't think I'd recommend (these days) buying a horse that you haven't known the owner and the horse for a good deal of time first.


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## Lisa in WA

CraterCove said:


> Get rid of her? I may take some flack for this, and I'm ready for it but get rid of her to where? If you are saying that bucking can't be fixed, that it's not a problem with handling and past training (I consider each and every interaction a horse has with a human to be a training experience for them, they learn something from it for good or ill) are you trying to say it's a bad horse? Because I'll have to say, in my experience there really are no bad horses, just people with bad horsemanship. He just got her and might not have any idea of what's happened to her in past.
> 
> I'm really wondering where one 'gets rid of' a horse that bucks. If it is being proposed once a bucker always a bucker and not worth the probability of injury then where could you get rid of the horse to that you are not then responsible for further injury or death or abuse of the horse.
> 
> I see the horse that bucks in the field at the drop of a pine cone on her behind a product of being taught by it's handlers that the solution to surprise is to buck.
> 
> (BTW found my big girl undies today and put them on already. )



My big bad bucker could have gone to the rodeo (I wasn't willing to winter her over for them though and ultimately so happy she didn't because it would have caused her pain, but we didn't know that then) but she ended up as a brood mare. She wasnt a bucker by nature, it turned out she sustained a broken rib at one time that the vet missed after an accident. Anytime a girth was buckled it hurt the rib and off she went. I have NEVER seen anything buck like that. She is a draft/TB cross and huge , but she caught air and just launched herself.


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## CraterCove

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> My big bad bucker could have gone to the rodeo (I wasn't willing to winter her over for them though) but she ended up as a brood mare. She wasnt a bucker by nature, it turned out she sustained a broken rib at one time that the vet missed after an accident. Anytime a girth was buckled it hurt the rib and off she went. I have NEVER seen anything buck like that.


OW! I'd buck too!


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## wr

CraterCove said:


> I think that problems that aren't human caused are inadvertently human caused, not culling well enough, breeding horses that ought not be bred, so on and so forth. I suppose in the broadest sense I really do blame humans for all of horse-kind's ills since we've taken them out of the wild and 'engineered' them and now expect them to exist without incident in our modern world.
> 
> Horses are a gamble. And finding a good ethical trainer is really, really hard, unfortunately. Finding an ethical horse seller is... well rare as hen's teeth? I don't think I'd recommend (these days) buying a horse that you haven't known the owner and the horse for a good deal of time first.


Sometimes it's nothing more than economics. I've had people tell me that the kid down the road was charging way less than I was and I've had people try and buy well trained ranch horses for $500 because 'some guy near Calgary is selling a bunch of horses for $400 - $600.' Sure, there are good deals to be had but not all deals are good ones.


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## where I want to

Crater Cove- the point is not that problems with horses can't be managed. It's that some problems with some horses can't be.
I never said every horse at any point. 
But there are a few who are so determined in their reaction and those reactions are so dangerous, that the horse, no matter how reliable otherwise, is never safe for anyone. Someone will get hurt or killed.
I have had my share of horses that I got because their owners were afraid of them.
This is the only one that I felt was too dangerous in their reactions to keep.

I posted for the sake of the OP and will not argue about this anymore. But someone who has owned and trained their horses for 50 years just might know what they are saying.


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## CraterCove

wr said:


> Sometimes it's nothing more than economics. I've had people tell me that the kid down the road was charging way less than I was and I've had people try and buy well trained ranch horses for $500 because 'some guy near Calgary is selling a bunch of horses for $400 - $600.' Sure, there are good deals to be had but not all deals are good ones.


I just don't think I'd sell _any_ horse to someone who thought a well trained horse was worth only 500. If you can get you a horse for that little then you put the effort in and train that horse yourself, the gall of some people or the ignorance I suppose. If you don't understand the hours and effort that go into a well trained horse then I'd say pay for lessons on a lesson horse and just leave the horse owning to someone else. The amount of injuries I have seen (just on horses, not even counting their owners) from poor handling, well meaning but no experience are innumerable. And then the poor horse is labeled dangerous and cooped up in a stall and neglected or just as bad handed over to someone to be 'showed whose boss' and handed back to an owner who is still just as ignorant and now afraid too.


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## CraterCove

where I want to said:


> Crater Cove- the point is not that problems with horses can't be managed. It's that some problems with some horses can't be.
> I never said every horse at any point.
> But there are a few who are so determined in their reaction and those reactions are so dangerous, that the horse, no matter how reliable otherwise, is never safe for anyone. Someone will get hurt or killed.
> I have had my share of horses that I got because their owners were afraid of them.
> This is the only one that I felt was too dangerous in their reactions to keep.
> 
> I posted for the sake of the OP and will not argue about this anymore. But someone who has owned and trained their horses for 50 years just might know what they are saying.


Not really trying to argue and I am sure you know what's best for you. It was just such a sweeping statement and the kind of open ended 'get rid of it'. That caught my attention.


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## bronc

CraterCove said:


> I doubt that bucking something that can really be traced genetically.


Are you saying that some bloodlines aren't more prone to buck than others??


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## CraterCove

bronc said:


> Are you saying that some bloodlines aren't more prone to buck than others??


Bucking, kicking, rearing, biting... those are _horse_ behaviors. They aren't QH behaviors or Thoroughbred behaviors. I think that a persons preconceptions about a line can alter how they are handled and get one into a vicious cycle of self fulfilling prophecy. Human labels alter human behavior. That is my observation, my experience and my opinion.


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## Irish Pixie

There are lines that are specifically used for rodeo stock. Most of the bucking stock used today is specifically bred to buck. Here's a link: http://www.naiaonline.org/naia-library/articles/professional-rodeo-horses-are-bred-to-buck/

There are also horses that are just plain dangerous and need to be put down or shipped to slaughter.


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## CraterCove

Irish Pixie said:


> There are lines that are specifically used for rodeo stock. Most of the bucking stock used today is specifically bred to buck. Here's a link: http://www.naiaonline.org/naia-library/articles/professional-rodeo-horses-are-bred-to-buck/
> 
> There are also horses that are just plain dangerous and need to be put down or shipped to slaughter.


I understand that. Do you really think there is a bucking gene? I mean one that can be singled out and bred for or identified and avoided? I'll bet if you dig down deeply enough there is one. However, a horse that doesn't buck sure doesn't have a good chance against predators, does it?

And I agree that there are some horses that are just plain dangerous, my experience is that is usually caused by a person, even a well meaning and loving owner mishandling and reinforcing bad habits. I don't think that bad horses are born, I think people make them.


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## Wolfy-hound

Absolutely there are lines of horses bred to buck, just like bulls. Not all horses are suited to buck off riders, and not all horses are suited to be ridden.

I would tell any non-experienced owner who came to me with a "My horse bucks me off" type issue and tell them to either take the horse to a experienced trainer or get rid of it or put it down.

I put the "poor horse" above the people every time. If a horse is dangerous to ride, it shouldn't be owned by anyone but someone experienced in handling dangerous horses. Sure, it MIGHT be some stupid little thing the owner doesn't realize. It could be that the horse was taught poor manners. It also could be a mean horse. Plain mean horses Do exist. Not loads of them, but some do.

I made quite a bit of side money retraining horses previously owned by girls who thought horses pooped rainbows and bunnies and all horses were gentle caring wonderful creatures. So of COURSE they did not treat it as a horse, no discipline, wrong discipline when it was applied, etc etc. They would teach a horse to rear up, then get scared when it reared up. We bought them.. retrained them and resold them at a hefty profit.

The great thing is that the OP here has enough experience to have figured out WHY the horse was having issues, how to fix that problem in a permanent fashion and is working towards a resolution in a safe and humane manner. Not all that many caual horse owners can do that, or would do that. Kudos to the OP.


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## CraterCove

"I made quite a bit of side money retraining horses previously owned by girls who thought horses pooped rainbows and bunnies and all horses were gentle caring wonderful creatures."

OMG, I laughed. I suppose I put a lot of effort into seeing that the horse isn't 'just mean'. As soon as the horse has that kind of label it really is the most humane thing to do is put it down. I hate seeing animals of any kind pay for human error.


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## bronc

Nowadays I start foundation bred QH colts and I can guarantee you that some bloodlines are more than likely to buck than others and to say different just means you don't train horses, else you'd know better. 

Just because one bucks doesn't mean they won't make a good horse b/c most of them do, just means you better pull your hat down tight for the first few rides. In fact, I don't mind if a colt bucks at first, shows he's got heart, just give him his head and let him wear himself out. Case in point, Hancock's are awesome, tough and dependable using horses but I've never broke one that didn't buck pretty good at first.


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## Irish Pixie

Wolfy-hound said:


> Absolutely there are lines of horses bred to buck, just like bulls. Not all horses are suited to buck off riders, and not all horses are suited to be ridden.
> 
> I would tell any non-experienced owner who came to me with a "My horse bucks me off" type issue and tell them to either take the horse to a experienced trainer or get rid of it or put it down.
> 
> I put the "poor horse" above the people every time. If a horse is dangerous to ride, it shouldn't be owned by anyone but someone experienced in handling dangerous horses. Sure, it MIGHT be some stupid little thing the owner doesn't realize. It could be that the horse was taught poor manners. It also could be a mean horse. Plain mean horses Do exist. Not loads of them, but some do.
> 
> I made quite a bit of side money retraining horses previously owned by girls who thought horses pooped rainbows and bunnies and all horses were gentle caring wonderful creatures. So of COURSE they did not treat it as a horse, no discipline, wrong discipline when it was applied, etc etc. They would teach a horse to rear up, then get scared when it reared up. We bought them.. retrained them and resold them at a hefty profit.
> 
> The great thing is that the OP here has enough experience to have figured out WHY the horse was having issues, how to fix that problem in a permanent fashion and is working towards a resolution in a safe and humane manner. Not all that many caual horse owners can do that, or would do that. Kudos to the OP.


I agree with your entire post, Wolfy-hound and I'll add that it isn't just young girls, plenty of older woman have the same opinion. But Honeybun is special, she would never ever hurt me she must be having a bad day or the sun was in her eyes! Gah. Then again, if there weren't girls/women (or men, there are men that think that way too) I couldn't have paid to put myself through college, and a whole bunch of other stuff.  They were usually the ones that when I suggested lessons with their horse got indignant and said they'd rode extensively when they were a kid and certainly didn't need lessons.


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## CraterCove

bronc said:


> Nowadays I start foundation bred QH colts and I can guarantee you that some bloodlines are more than likely to buck than others and to say different just means you don't train horses, else you'd know better.
> 
> Just because one bucks doesn't mean they won't make a good horse b/c most of them do, just means you better pull your hat down tight for the first few rides. In fact, I don't mind if a colt bucks at first, shows he's got heart, just give him his head and let him wear himself out. Case in point, Hancock's are awesome, tough and dependable using horses but I've never broke one that didn't buck pretty good at first.



Maybe it just means one doesn't know bloodlines? And no, I don't train horses that aren't mine. I guess that leaves me with experience pretty much in the Leo/Bar/Driftwood lines (no one particularly special) and some line or another of miniature horse that threw an oversized little boy and an anonymously lined arab and now four PoA's I have little knowledge of their lines (they're rescues). Obviously lines mean something otherwise there'd be no different breeds within the horse species. I'm certainly not a line specialist at all.

Also... I think _everyone_ could use lessons, even (especially?) professionals. I think there's a lot to be gained from a fresh eye and a different perspective when working with horses.


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## wr

bronc said:


> Nowadays I start foundation bred QH colts and I can guarantee you that some bloodlines are more than likely to buck than others and to say different just means you don't train horses, else you'd know better.
> 
> Just because one bucks doesn't mean they won't make a good horse b/c most of them do, just means you better pull your hat down tight for the first few rides. In fact, I don't mind if a colt bucks at first, shows he's got heart, just give him his head and let him wear himself out. Case in point, Hancock's are awesome, tough and dependable using horses but I've never broke one that didn't buck pretty good at first.


Absolutely!

CraterCove, I can assure you that the Calgary Stampede's Born to Buck breeding program indicates that you can breed buck into them and if you have any doubts at all, I would recommend you check into the Coconut and Papa Smurf bloodlines, which have produced generations of world champion bucking horses. While there are others producing champion bucking stock via established bloodlines, the Stampede Ranch has the longest and most successful designated program.


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## CraterCove

Sounds pretty interesting. It's nice to see alternatives for good buckers and that rodeos aren't relying on bullying to get the horses to buck.


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## Wolfy-hound

When I was young, I only dealt with the teen girls(some younger) with blinders on regarding horses. Now, I see a LOT of adults, mostly women, who have the same mentality. Horses are not genteel creatures of light and goodness, not guardian angels hovering to assist your spirit... they are animals. Gorgeous, willing to please, useful, wonderful animals(when not standing on your foot out of sheer naughtyness!)... but still animals. 

The memories of some of the girls I had to deal with... *shudder*. Happily I only taught a handful to ride, and that was mostly "See horse? See saddle? Stay on." and most were trotting around by lesson 3. Nothing big other than 'You can ride without falling off and can control the horse properly'. 

I did once have a girl who fell off every horse. Even when they stood still. Just fell off. I finally told her to just stay away from horses. No idea what her issue was. Never had someone just plain fall off a horse so much, ever!


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## spur

I guess I'll throw my 2 cents into the mix. In general horses buck for some reason or the other. Maybe pain, maybe feeling good, maybe to get you off so they don't have to bother with you or just because they can. There is another reason that goes with the first reason I mentioned and a lot of people miss it. A lot of folks like a small horse cause it is easy to mount, not as far to the ground if they fall or a dozen other reasons. What most people forget is that the rule of thumb for how much a horse can carry comfortably. The rule is 20% of the horses total weight. As an example most 14-2 quarter horses way somewhere around 800 lbs. give or take as an average. That means that that horse could comfortably carry a total weight of around 160 lbs. That includes the rider AND the saddle combined. How many times have you seen a little 14-2 mare with a guy or girl that ways 250 or 300 pounds on it and they can't figure out why the horse doesn't want to act right? 
There was another thing I saw above that everyone that rides should know how to do. A one rein stop if practiced regularly and understood can be a life saver. Horses are animals and they can do things at any time with out apparent reason. For those that have never used a one rein stop I'll give a short description. It is in it's simplest form teaching a horse to flex it's nose around to it's shoulder on command. That is a gross over simplification but the principle is this. If you feel your horse tighten up and getting ready to buck or run away with you, you pull it's nose around to it's shoulder and keep it there till you feel the horse loosen up again. That maneuver takes the balance away from the horse it needs to have to do the above actions. You usually pull in the direction of your strongest hand. Surprisingly it isn't to hard to stay with a horse that has it's nose on it's shoulder. If you practice this regularly you already know the way it is going to turn or spin. Any young riders that I start are taught that first thing. 
Another good suggestion I saw above is to give the horse that you feel getting ready to buck something to do quickly. If you feel the horse tighten up ,don't you tighten up and get ready for the buck. Put pressure on it's side and ask the horse to move it's hind end over or push your feet forward and say whoa and right away say back. A horse really does have a one track mind and it doesn't take much to get it's mind from one behavior to another.


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## CraterCove

Wolfy, those dollars were hard earned on your part, no doubt. I have had people ask me to help them with both dogs and horses my answer is always NO. I enjoy working with my animals... heck I like working with other people's animals. I do _not_ like working with other people. I guess I didn't really consider the fact that regardless of whether or not a vet works on animals they have to deal with people. Good thing I became a farm wife and mother instead.

And Spur, yeah one rein is useful though I have had better success using 'I'm going to buck' as if they are asking me, begging me that I work them hard--- never had one yet (nope not an expert whose done hundreds of problem horses) that decided it wasn't just easier to carry my tail-less end instead of try to buck me off. Don't think you can just suggest that to a beginning student though.


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## dizzy

Spur, your comment about the rider vs horse size reminds me of a call I had one time. Someone had gotten a large pony/small horse (can't recall now how big it was, but weighed maybe 800 lbs at the most). The owner, to put it mildly was a large person. And, she couldn't figure out why the horse refused to stand still when she went to mount. As soon as I saw the horse, I knew what the problem was. The bad thing about this match up? Someone had sold this poor animal to this woman and assured them that she wasn't too big for it. :grit:

I've also seen those women who insist that their horses "love" them. And, those horses are some of the WORST behaved horses I've ever seen! Many of these women have been around horses longer than I have. I even had one offer to help me w/Misty when I got her. (She's a rescue, and I had only been around horses for about 3 years when I got her. She was unhandled, let alone broke to ride!) I refused the help. 

When I first got into horses, I realized that I knew very little, so I learned everything that I could about safely working w/a horse. And, I handle them better than most people I know that have had horses all (or most of) their lives-my BO included.


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## SFM in KY

bronc said:


> Nowadays I start foundation bred QH colts and I can guarantee you that some bloodlines are more than likely to buck than others and to say different just means you don't train horses, else you'd know better.
> 
> Case in point, Hancock's are awesome, tough and dependable using horses but I've never broke one that didn't buck pretty good at first.


In the ranch country where I grew up, the Hancock horses had that reputation and it was earned honestly. In our immediate area, there was one Hard Twist bred stud that local people used quite a bit and whether it was that particular horse or the bloodline, I used to cringe when I had someone ask me to start one of those.


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## wr

SFM, they still have a certain reputation up here. When someone mentions Hancock or 2 Eyed Jack lines, one expects to hear, 'tough as nails and good horses, if you both survive the training period.' Once they are trained, they sure make awesome horses.


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## CraterCove

My mom's QH some Doc Bar new style one was a terrible bucker. He wasn't very good at it... but he did it often to my mom. She was heavy on the reins and heavy in the saddle-- I kid you not, she had to be 250lbs at least and Red couldn't have been 1k lbs. She got him green... which means (in my experience) yeah we tossed a saddle on him once and stuffed a bit in his mouth, and ruined him quickly. In no time I was the only one riding him and I didn't particularly like him. I used to (at that time) prefer the hot ones, on alert, paying attentions, don't have to be hard on them or anything but trotting in place ready to go types. Luckily at the barn where we were keeping my Mom's horse during those years there were lots of ladies with hot arabs who would rather sit around the fire and drink beer and flirt with cowboys than actually ride. It was a high time in my childhood but it taught me a lot of negative things about horse owners and I have grown to despise the status symbol types very much.

I don't ever want to be a trainer of other people's horses, you guys have wills of steel if you can do it.


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## bronc

CraterCove said:


> I don't ever want to be a trainer of other people's horses, you guys have wills of steel if you can do it.


Once a guy gets established it's alot easier. When I began riding outside horses in the 90's, I was broke and worked for whoever and rode whatever they brought me. Some of those people drove me nuts but I weathered the storm, developed a decent reputation and was blessed to get in with a few guys that had alot of good colts and they kept me as busy as I wanted to be. They trust me and let me do my job.


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## wr

CraterCove, my maternal grandfather remains a strong part of Alberta's equine history so I had the pleasure of spending summers & holidays on a large working horse and cattle ranch, my regular time was spend on my parent's ranch or with them on the back side of rodeo arenas and my uncle managed the largest privately owned working ranch in Western Canada so I was literally on a horse from the time I was born. Because of my background and contacts, training was a natural progression but I also has the pleasure of being able to pick and choose my clients, which is rare in this business.


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## CraterCove

I definitely come from the other end of that. I was the kid who hung out at all the barns looking for stalls to clean or horses to groom, anything to simply be let around the horses. I cleaned stalls and tack, cleaned barns and stacked hay (as well as a 5'4'' girl can, those California bales are a lot bigger than the ones I see around here in the south), shined boots and cleaned troughs. I was used as a sacking out doll too, 'Just hop on up there, I'll catch you.' (yeah right) 

I had decided before I entered primary school that I was going to be a large animal Vet and pursued that until my ex-husband reneged on his promise to keep me going to school after we married. It's been five years since I had horses, I didn't take mine when I left him-- wanted nothing but our son that he had any claim to. And now I am back in a position to have take in a group of rescues. 

I admire professional trainers, even ones who use techniques I don't prefer myself. I'd never do well at the owner handling. And these days I haven't been living in one place long enough to find a suitable mentor in the business. The grass is thick with young up and commers here around Gainesville Fl. Got the Vet school and hits here. I'm just going to be happy to take mine in and go slow and steady and not have to worry about any owners but myself.


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## TroutRiver

Sorry but that video really irked me. Horses don't just buck for no reason. No, it's not "just what horses do" (someone in the video said that). I wouldn't buy that product, simply because I don't like their advertising. But furthermore it seems like a gadget that would be simple to make yourself if it really works, and does not address the real problem that more often than not, people who get bucked off of their horse on a regular basis either a) are riding a horse that is in pain, or b) are riding a horse that is too much for them. The horse can't buck if it can't get it's head down? Good, put a rider on him that won't let him get his head down, or one that can ride out the buck. One horse that they showed in the video clearly had a bucking strap on him, and continued bucking long after the rider fell off. Then of course they show the same horse, minus the bucking strap, trotting around, and "look how well our device works!!" Also note that none of the people in that video are wearing helmets on their wild bucking horses, despite their scare tactics that "it only takes one time"... yeah thanks but no thanks. I should wear a helmet more often than I do, but I will ALWAYS wear one on a horse that I am unsure of. I have ridden horses with my shoelaces untied before, just in case. 

That said, to the OP, it does sound like you've got your head in the right place and are making some good progress with your mare. My criticisms are not directed at you, more directed at the people in the video you posted. I would continue what you're doing now, and I would highly recommend that you have her evaluated by an equine chiropractor as well, as not all vets have the experience and training necessary to find small misalignments that might cause pain sparatically, not constantly, causing her to buck at seemingly random times.


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## where I want to

TroutRiver said:


> Horses don't just buck for no reason.


No, I agree that the horse bucks for some reason. What seems to be missing in this debate is that some horses buck for very, very,very slight reason. And some horses buck really, really, really hard for very little reason. And some horses don't give warning- they just go. 
That is always the issue to judge. Because if anyone thinks they will never get bucked off, they should watch a competition where most of the professionals can't keep their seat for 8 seconds. 
Yes, with most horses, a buck can be derailed much of the time. With some a buck on occasion comes with warning and is just an expression of feeling good or youth. The horse settles down eventually, gets older or whatever. 
The thing that made me go straight to the "get rid" of phase was the opening post about bucking for no apparent reason then the post about spinning afterwards. Those words are huge red flags that, no matter how hard the person works on training, sooner or later the horse will catch them by surprise and they will go flying. 
Now if a horse was an Olympic caliber jumper or eventer or reining horse or whatever, then accepting the risk might be OK for competitor. But a trail horse, where you go ladeedaing along to sightsee or talk with friends, where the environment is subject to surprises, you might find yourself miles from help- to me that is never worth the risk when there are so many lovely animals to be had for a song these days.
For those who never had to deal with a horse who with almost no warning will jerk the reins from your hands and take to a series of lengthy champion caliber bucks, putting her whole heart into it for the sheer joy of it, then just say you have never had one. I have, they exist, and they are not worth the risk.


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## TroutRiver

I agree. Personally, I would not take a horse like that as a project, definitely not as a potential trail horse. I hope you don't take offense to this question, but why did you buy this horse knowing that she had this problem? I am very curious...


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## SFM in KY

where I want to said:


> For those who never had to deal with a horse who with almost no warning will jerk the reins from your hands and take to a series of lengthy champion caliber bucks, putting her whole heart into it for the sheer joy of it, then just say you have never had one. I have, they exist, and they are not worth the risk.


Exactly. I quit riding this kind of horse in my late 30s. Decided the ground was getting harder all the time and it was time for me to quit hitting it.


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## where I want to

TroutRiver said:


> I agree. Personally, I would not take a horse like that as a project, definitely not as a potential trail horse. I hope you don't take offense to this question, but why did you buy this horse knowing that she had this problem? I am very curious...


If you mean me- she was a "mail order bride"- I bought her through an internet breeder and took his word that he was thinking about not selling the mare so his wife could have a safe horse ride. I should have known better. 

I had always bought young horses on the theory that they have not yet been screwed up. Learned a hard lesson about liars and the difficulty of resolving a horse purchased from the other end of the country.


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## Lisa in WA

SFM in KY said:


> Exactly. I quit riding this kind of horse in my late 30s. Decided the ground was getting harder all the time and it was time for me to quit hitting it.


Yup...me too. Age 39 to be exact. After my husband's gorgeous Quarter horse piled me into the ground and I broke my shoulder, cracked my hip and broke 3 ribs. We had that horse checked ad nauseum. Trainers, vet, chiropractor, saddle fit, you name it. Could never find any problems.
Fact is that for whatever reason, every few months he'd decide to buck, and buck big. I decided life was too short for that nonsense and traded him for a POA for my daughter (and full disclosed his issue).


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## CraterCove

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Yup...me too. Age 39 to be exact. After my husband's gorgeous Quarter horse piled me into the ground and I broke my shoulder, cracked my hip and broke 3 ribs. We had that horse checked ad nauseum. Trainers, vet, chiropractor, saddle fit, you name it. Could never find any problems.
> Fact is that for whatever reason, every few months he'd decide to buck, and buck big. I decided life was too short for that nonsense and traded him for a POA for my daughter (and full disclosed his issue).



Holy crap! I hope you have or are recovering well from that crash. It's definitely sobering and a risk anyone who chooses to have horses needs to keep in mind isn't it? It's never 100% certain and there really is no such thing as 'bomb proof' or 'dead broke' (unless we are talking about our own pockets).


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## Irish Pixie

where I want to said:


> If you mean me- she was a "mail order bride"- I bought her through an internet breeder and took his word that he was thinking about not selling the mare so his wife could have a safe horse ride. I should have known better.
> 
> I had always bought young horses on the theory that they have not yet been screwed up. Learned a hard lesson about liars and the difficulty of resolving a horse purchased from the other end of the country.


I learned the same lesson, and it sucks.


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## bronc

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Fact is that for whatever reason, every few months he'd decide to buck, and buck big. I decided life was too short for that nonsense and traded him for a POA for my daughter (and full disclosed his issue).


That 'full disclosure' reminds me of a funny story... many years ago I was at a horse sale and they ran this big, snorty acting sorrel in loose (no rider, no handler, etc.). Auctioneer asks who wants to speak for the horse and this old man grabs the microphone and explains that this horse is a buckin' machine, claims he's thrown off all of his ranch hands and should be marketed as a saddle bronc. He goes on to say, and I quote: _'Folks, if you buy this horse, haul him home, unload him, saddle him and ride him off with no problems ... then you'd better bring that horse back b/c you picked up the wrong one_!!' I never laughed so hard! P.S. No one bought him.


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## JustinRobinsREO

I didn't buy her knowing that. An old farmer said she was broke and used recently rounding up cattle. She had a good personality, calm, and good papers. Bid was at $160 with the kill buyer. So I bought her instead of seeing her go to meat. Obviously I wouldn't have purchased her if the owner had been honest when I spoke with him. I did end up selling her to a trainer with full disclosure of the bucking issue. 



TroutRiver said:


> I agree. Personally, I would not take a horse like that as a project, definitely not as a potential trail horse. I hope you don't take offense to this question, but why did you buy this horse knowing that she had this problem? I am very curious...


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## JustinRobinsREO

Most Hancock bred horses I have had and met bucked. Pretty notorious here for that and a very well known fact around these parts. 



bronc said:


> Are you saying that some bloodlines aren't more prone to buck than others??


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## bronc

JustinRobinsREO said:


> Most Hancock bred horses I have had and met bucked. Pretty notorious here for that and a very well known fact around these parts.


That's my experience too, I love 'em though. They got good bones, good mind and can take a hard days riding.


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## JustinRobinsREO

I like them as well. One of the best mares I had was Hancock bred. Awesome up elk hunting.


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## Lisa in WA

CraterCove said:


> Holy crap! I hope you have or are recovering well from that crash. It's definitely sobering and a risk anyone who chooses to have horses needs to keep in mind isn't it? It's never 100% certain and there really is no such thing as 'bomb proof' or 'dead broke' (unless we are talking about our own pockets).


All recovered...it happened 10 years ago.:grin: Still, it was the worst pain I've ever been in and I hope never to repeat it. The ball of the shoulder joint was fractured as it violently dislocated...and the dislocation was worse than childbirth, IMO.


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