# Not extending unemployment ramifications



## AngieM2

Okay - there are all sorts of arguments for and against the extension - those comments and conversations are for other threads.

This thread is that it is happening now. The extensions have stopped. The unemployment was for 26 weeks for many years; but in recent years it was extended to 99 weeks.

There are going to be a lot of people hurting due to this. Rightly or wrongly, it's going to be happening.

What do you think we will be seeing, how can the ones loosing what they may have started depending on do to survive? or can most of them survive economically?

Will this cause more houses to be lost? More suicides as people feel more worthless? 

If you know of someone that has been trying to get a job, and took the 99 weeks as a swollow your pride and take what you've paid into, and now is still out of a job, How do you help? Can you teach them anything? 

I'm thinking along practical stuff for those that want to work, but do not find it. For those that have families that will need everything still? 

Got any ideas, either of the ramifications or how to mediate the ramifications from being severe.?


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## Sawmill Jim

There are still lots of good paying jobs to be had . Thing with the ones around here is they want those jobs on their terms and handy . 

Few years back when I went to the oil field only one other guy from here went.At the time i was there they were having a hard time finding workers that could pass a drug test too .

In 99 weeks one should done down sized ,moved or made some sort of plans .As the wife told her son once no one is going to come to your house and drag you off that sofa and put you to work ,go where the works is . 

There are several folks wouldn't take a job in a candy factory as taste tester .much less move a thousand miles . :runforhills:


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## AngieM2

Jim - so I take your post that your advice is to move to the oil fields or other such job.


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## Sawmill Jim

AngieM2 said:


> Jim - so I take your post that your advice is to move to the oil fields or other such job.


Yes ,sometimes we have to do things we don't like for the good of the family.Nearly everyone of out relatives years back moved to Detroit to survive some got wealthy others spent their money faster than they made it . Lots of my cousins are still in that area . 

While in the oil field I met a guy from Arizona he was living in his truck on the terminal yard ,the shop had showers and such . I ask what he was there for and his answer was that he was working every hour he could to support his family and get enough money to pay everything off . He also said when he made what he needed he would be gone and wasen't going to look back on his way out of the gate . He was putting in near a hundred hours a week . 



Me and another guy liked in a travel trailer we were most of the time rebuilding a frack heater . I did what the guy from Arizona did I didn't spend one dime i didn't have to . 

There are lots more jobs than the oil field I know several guys work on the river boats .lots of good pay there too . :hobbyhors:whistlin:

Found a link for deck hand pay http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-River-Boat-Pilots-Deckhand-l-Mobile,-AL.html


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## Darren

The most prevalent employment ads in WV newspapers are for nursing or CDL drivers often for the oil patch.

Anyone on long term unemployment should have downsized, moved in with relatives, etc. long before the end. Human nature is such that many didn't. Laid off steel workers around Pittsburgh thought the mills would come back. Later when the mills were demolished, they had to face reality. 

We seem to have the unique ability among animals to be self-deceptive. Lots of people are on the verge of desperate times. Expect foreclosures, divorces and suicides to trend up.


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## Raymond James

I agree with Jim in 99 weeks if I could not find something local I would have figured out where to move to too to earn a living. 


Downsizing is also something that many families need to do. Many families / close friends need to look at sharing housing, pooling child care, transportation. 

I see a lot of folks living 2 in 2000+ sf of house with great big grass yards. If they have trees it is ornamental. Plant fruit and vegetable gardens , rent out rooms or share with family/friends. Car pool, join a bulk buying club, barter with neighbors. "Shop" for clothes at the good will. 

I see a lot of folks saying they are struggling yet they spend a lot more on clothes, transportation , housing , food than I ever would. Just because you can afford to spend a lot of money on something - Big house, new car, fancy clothes does not mean you should. Rather live modestly and bank/invest. 

We all need to shop local and buy American made products to help put our neighbors to work.


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## Sawmill Jim

Raymond James said:


> I agree with Jim in 99 weeks if I could not find something local I would have figured out where to move to too to earn a living.
> 
> 
> Downsizing is also something that many families need to do. Many families / close friends need to look at sharing housing, pooling child care, transportation.
> 
> I see a lot of folks living 2 in 2000+ sf of house with great big grass yards. If they have trees it is ornamental. Plant fruit and vegetable gardens , rent out rooms or share with family/friends. Car pool, join a bulk buying club, barter with neighbors. "Shop" for clothes at the good will.
> 
> I see a lot of folks saying they are struggling yet they spend a lot more on clothes, transportation , housing , food than I ever would. Just because you can afford to spend a lot of money on something - Big house, new car, fancy clothes does not mean you should. Rather live modestly and bank/invest.
> 
> We all need to shop local and buy American made products to help put our neighbors to work.


Yep :hobbyhors Now i got a problem with the wife tossing a few my things now and then ,i got a shirt my son gave me 25 years ago .She say i look like a walking rag bag now and again . Last thing went was my shoes I made the mistake wearing to town wound in duct tape ,they dissapeared :whistlin:

Some things get comfortable with age :lookout:


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## wes917

Many are also not willing to take a pay cut, they want what they had. I took a job at 20k less a year when I lost my job last year, put in a year at this new place, and just accepted a position making more than I was originally starting after the first of the year. It's significantly easier to find work while you are employed.


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## bigjon

old lesson:u do what it takes-and takes what it does


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## Guest

My BIL was let go from his job a year or so ago . There is a lot of oilfield work in this area & that's what he has done for years . He has made no attempt to find another job & has been drawing unemployment . 
I believe many are like that . If his unemployment is stopped he won't have any problem finding a job . 
Never in my life have I ever seen the time I couldn't find some type of job in 6 months much less 2 years & I have moved to other states for work . I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who refuses to do what needs to be done to support themselves .


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## po boy

*Ramifications, at some point the cost of Unemployment Insurance to the Employer should come down. I was an employer for many years and had very few claims and it's hard to imagine what the current cost are.*


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## Wendy

My husband lost his job two different times. It was rough, but he always found work somewhere. I have worked 3 part time jobs at one point. If you can't find a full time job, that will do. Most people do not want to take a pay cut. They want to start out making what they were making at thier old job. Most do not want to give up any of thier luxuries while looking for a job.

I have a niece that is currently unemployed. She has quit at least 6 different jobs in the past year. All of them were good jobs, but for some reason or another she didn't like them. She also never gave a notice, just walked out. Now she wonders why she can't find a job. This caused her to lose her apartment & she moved back home with my sister & her husband. If she were my kid, she would be living in a box. To lose your job through no fault of your own is one thing, but to quit your job when you have nothing else lined up, is another. Of course she would not give up her cell phone, or her clubing nights out. Not exactly sure how she had money for that.

Anyway, there are a lot of people like her. Jobs are out there, they just do not want to work. It's either not enough money, requires them to actually work, or it's no fun. 

I have worked plenty of places that I did not like because we needed the money. Too many people are just plain lazy now. They want everything for nothing. They want to make a lot of money doing nothing. 

My parents were pretty poor when I was growing up. There were 11 kids in my family. BUT, my dad always worked & never accepted any kind of government help. We used to have a laying farm with 30,000 chickens. When that became more work than profit, he started a sawmill business. It has grown very well & is now run by 2 of my brothers that are part owners & employs about a dozen workers. Dad is retired. Dad is also a wealthy man now, but he had to work for it. He didn't even go through 9th grade, but has always managed to have a job & support his family.

Work ethics like that are rare these days. When the government keeps pushing people to be dependent on hand-outs, they have no reason to get off thier butts & start a business or work for anything. I think it is going to be rough for a lot of people, but in the long run will be the best thing for them. Sometimes you need to fall on your face before you realize that only you can pick yourself up & make something of yourself.


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## AngieM2

How is it going to effect the "us" of S&EP? You've been showing how many do not want to work, but that's going to be a lot of people hurting via their own actions or not their own actions creating this current situation for themselves and those around them.


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## ann in tn

My husband was laid off twice in 12 months. He was a local truck driver. We had done the long distance over the road thing for years before and really did not want to go back to that lifestyle. I was working full time and going to school (still am), we used our savings, put him through school. He now has his EMT license in two states, works full time with OT almost anytime he wants/can work although it came at a price - his pay is 2/3 of what he used to make. We have had to cut back quite a bit, especially since I am now going to school full time. BUT we had planned for this, although we thought he would be earning more, and hopefully will be much better off when I graduate. 

I realize the idea of moving is not easy for some, especially with children, but we had done it 15 yrs ago when we both had horrible paying jobs in central TX and moved here for better paying jobs. We just do what needs to be done.

I am thinking that a lot of those that had been counting on the extended unemployment will just have to start thinking that way - what can I cut back on, what can I sell, what other ways can I make money. I am not sure what other options will be available for them.


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## wes917

AngieM2 said:


> How is it going to effect the "us" of S&EP? You've been showing how many do not want to work, but that's going to be a lot of people hurting via their own actions or not their own actions creating this current situation for themselves and those around them.


For "us" it means probably lower housing values as more people will be forced to choose food over mortgage payments. I honestly don't see much change for those here as we have a survivors attitude, to do what is necessary to survive. Simply stay low when things begin to go awry and hunker down with your preps, that's why we do it right?


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## elkhound

heres one thing...if you own a home,land,equipment etc etc...if you leave to work a job out of town be it 200 miles or 2000 miles ..well things tend to disappear unattended.


now i am talking from a single persons no dependents view so everything is left unattended.

for the record i traveled to PNW to work and Alaska.


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## elkhound

we are going to see what would have happened in 08 when this mess started.


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## Molly Mckee

I bet congress reinstates the 99weeks of unemployment and makes payments that will be missed. There are too many people depending on it and it looks really bad to the voters.

There are a lot of people that abuse unemployment, there are some that don't.


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## TnAndy

In the 'for what it's worth' column:

Two of my neighbor's boys ( one 21, the other 24). 

"21" just started this summer for the local cable company. Says they can't find folks to work ( Pay starts a $12/hr, advances fairly rapidly) that will stay any time at all. He has been there 6mo, and is already a mid-level tech. Good heath insurance, give them a van to drive to/from work, work isn't hard.....in fact, he laughs that he finally got away from Dad's construction business where Dad worked him like a dog.

"24" is a substitute rural mail carrier, has been for 3 years now. Makes 1000-1100wk after withholding....often more, as they are working him like a dog, often doing two routes, sometimes three per day ! Same thing.....they hire in 1/2 dozen, in a month all are gone ! Simply don't want to work he says.


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## Ernie

elkhound said:


> heres one thing...if you own a home,land,equipment etc etc...if you leave to work a job out of town be it 200 miles or 2000 miles ..well things tend to disappear unattended.
> 
> 
> now i am talking from a single persons no dependents view so everything is left unattended.
> 
> for the record i traveled to PNW to work and Alaska.


I find the thought of packing up and going to the oilfields to look for work to be incompatible with a homesteading lifestyle.


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## elkhound

Ernie said:


> I find the thought of packing up and going to the oilfields to look for work to be incompatible with a homesteading lifestyle.



me too.....its one reason people need to get a chunk of land and a roof over their heads .


no debt....makes your lifestyle very different.....you know me and you live a very different life that is on the farthest side of scale from mainstream folks live.


ETA...everyone in this country is going to get to a breaking point about lifestyles.....you and i arrived at that point earlier than most and for a variety of reasons we both know.


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## Ernie

elkhound said:


> me too.....its one reason people need to get a chunk of land and a roof over their heads .
> 
> 
> no debt....makes your lifestyle very different.....you know me and you live a very different life that is on the farthest side of scale from mainstream folks live.


In the winter I need approximately $20 per day to keep us fed. In the summer it's less than $10.

Each year we've cut that down pretty dramatically.

Right now I need to sell one knife every 4 days in order to not starve. And that's happening more often than not. 

We saw this time period coming, when there would be no good and useful outside labor to do, and not desiring to cast ourselves into the loving and merciful arms of the government.

If I was willing to pack up and go somewhere else for a paycheck, I would have never entered into this lifestyle in the first place. I'd have stayed living in the city and kept my high-paying job. Bought all my food from the grocery store, had my electricity and water pumped in, and simply sat dreaming about a farm someday.

As for practical matters, as Angie is trying to solicit, I don't really know that I have any for y'all. If you're dependent upon that outside money to survive, then you're probably going to have to do what it takes to get it.

Frankly, there's plenty of illegal (but not unethical) methods for me to raise capital if I needed to. Before I abandoned my farm I'd go all Copperhead Road.


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## elkhound

i think the main thing is to get out of debt....Dave Ramsey preaches it all the time.

live like no other so you can live like no other.


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## elkhound

[YOUTUBE]dnxyn88-B7A[/YOUTUBE]


i dont agree with everything this guy talks about but i do agree with much.especially his lifestyle.


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## unregistered65598

I didn't read all the replies but these people losing their unemployment are going to have to accept a job making less then they were employed and less then they were getting unemployed. The jobs are there, they are just not what the unemployed person was accustomed to doing or making. The ramifications of this are going to be a bunch of "poor me souls" We have just seen 1 million or more lining up to the governments teat, god forbid they do a job beneath them.


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## Hobbes

My line of work is in marketing, and is usually the first to go in any budget cuts. I've been laid off/reduced about five times now; but I've never been on government assistance or unemployment. Knowing the rollercoaster nature of my profession, you pad ahead for the dry spells. Keep the pantry prepped, and treat your down-time as prep mode. When you see layoffs potentially coming down the pipe, you give more emphasis to stocking the pantry. Shift resources, so when things get tight, the last thing you have to worry about is food on your table - even if it's a can of corn.

I also found it helpful to 'de-feather the nest'. By this I mean if we see sudden life changes up ahead, we need to 'panic now, avoid the rush'. Declutter your life, do a deep spring cleaning, take stuff to the mission, etc. - all this to keep you mentally into the motion state. A body in motion tends to stay in motion. Shake yourself up so you can focus on the necessities - job hunting, paying the essential bills, etc.


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## Ernie

Merks said:


> I didn't read all the replies but these people losing their unemployment are going to have to accept a job making less then they were employed and less then they were getting unemployed. The jobs are there, they are just not what the unemployed person was accustomed to doing or making. The ramifications of this are going to be a bunch of "poor me souls" We have just seen 1 million or more lining up to the governments teat, god forbid they do a job beneath them.


Ah. I don't think you get the economics of it. 

Let's say I was to need a job.

In my rural area, which is where my homestead is, there is a very limited selection of fulltime jobs. So if I were looking and hadn't been able to get one of those, I would have to get a part time job.

The part time jobs generally use you for fill in labor. I have a few friends who suffer through with those. What happens is you get told on Tuesday what your Wednesday schedule will be. And it's usually going to be about 2 hours. If you're lucky, those 2 hours will be back to back, but just as often it will be 9-10am and then 2-3pm. 

They're using you basically to fill in gaps in their busy schedule.

These jobs also primarily pay minimum wage. My friend who has one has to drive 30 miles in to work that 2 hour shift every day. I point out to him that he's actually spending ONE of those TWO hours in gas every day, for which he then receives $7.25 for the other hour, minus social security, minus taxes.

He actually LOSES money going to town to work those crappy schedules.

If you can find a parttime employer who will work you, say, 2 days a week for 8 hours each day, then you're doing ok. But otherwise you're spending too much time and gas for it to be economical.

It may be different in the cities, but you're also facing much higher costs of living there and I don't think the math would work out in their favor either. Which is why I know so many people in the cities who hold down 3-4 low paying jobs at the same time.


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## Ernie

Another thing ...

How many people do you think the low-paid, no-skill job market can absorb?

5 million just got dumped into it. In another month, it'll probably be another 5 million. In 2 months, another 5 million. 

Over the next 6 months, if they don't sign this, probably 30 million new people will be competing to work down at the car wash or to bus your tables at Cracker Barrel.

Even if they DO sign this, it's just delaying the inevitable.

Those jobs that were lost are GONE. They went overseas, they went to some immigrant laborer here for half the salary, or they became technologically obsolete.

In economic terms, you do not replace a $80k a year accountant with a $20k a year janitor and have a net gain for the economy.

And a lot of you who are making fun of these people or saying how they should get to work ... your lives would not bear scrutiny. You are on social security, or a pension, or disability, or you are simply waiting for YOUR job to disappear and think you're immune from what's facing those other folks.

America, as you knew it, is OVER. We are entering a brand new economic environment where it's going to be as hard to scratch up $100 as it used to be to scratch up $1,000.

If you're not prepared for that, woe unto you.


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## farmerj

I set myself up this time when things tank, I'll be ready.

Food always needs to move.


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## Ernie

farmerj said:


> I set myself up this time when things tank, I'll be ready.
> 
> Food always needs to move.


That's a ---- good strategy for it.

It's DOUBLE good.

First, you are producing food so one of your major expenses is cut down to almost nothing (assuming you're producing an edible product and not some GMO crop of grain destined for a commercial mill).

But second, people gotta eat, and they gotta eat pretty much every day.


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## elkhound

notice the vets and disabled vets got hit already...now this unemployment thing....whats next?....there will be more much more.....but you can bet no one at the top gets cut...they cut from bottom up.


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## jwal10

It is a bad time of the year. This is just a bump in the road. It should be a wake up call. Something has to be done and this is just a way to get everyone stirred up. Hopefully the goobermutt will sign, but, hopefully it will be a much shorter time, maybe 26 above the 26 and the rest will be on their own for now. 1 year or more they should have known, the ones that wanted to work got a job, the ones that just didn't want to take one for less will now have reevaluate. Too many have taken advantage of the extended benefits. We will see what happens but I think congress will watch closely and do what needs done, don't want too many to get too unruly....James


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## manygoatsnmore

So, Ernie, you don't think someone with no job possibilities in his (or her) immediate area shouldn't take an out of state job in the oil fields, live in his camper and save every penny to send home or to eventually buy a homestead of his own? Personally, I think it's a smart thing to do...and it beats trying to scratch a living where the best he can hope for is that part time minimum wage job you mentioned. :shrug: I think it fits very well with the homesteader mindset and lifestyle, just sometimes ya have to do what ya have to do until ya get through the rough patch.

Personally, I've seen too many folks that wouldn't get a job that didn't exactly suit them...99 weeks of someone else paying their way was fine with them. For every one person that really needs that length of unemployment, there are too many more that use it as a way NOT to get a job.


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## Ernie

manygoatsnmore said:


> So, Ernie, you don't think someone with no job possibilities in his (or her) immediate area shouldn't take an out of state job in the oil fields, live in his camper and save every penny to send home or to eventually buy a homestead of his own? Personally, I think it's a smart thing to do...and it beats trying to scratch a living where the best he can hope for is that part time minimum wage job you mentioned. :shrug: I think it fits very well with the homesteader mindset and lifestyle, just sometimes ya have to do what ya have to do until ya get through the rough patch.


If you don't HAVE a homestead, then you do what you gotta do.

I'm taking about someone who HAS an existing homestead and a plan to keep going down the self-sufficiency path.

Uprooting yourself and leaving all that behind to grow weeds doesn't help you.


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## MO_cows

99 weeks?? The news blurb I saw said 26 weeks. It was my understanding that the federal extension was not renewed at all, so after the 26 weeks of state unemployment you are all done?????

The suddenness of it is what is going to be hard for people. If they had a little more notice this was coming, they could hustle harder for work, change things in their life to cut expenses, etc.

This hits kinda close to home. DH lost his job last year. There wasn't anything that paid comparable to his old job, that he was qualified for, except OTR trucking. Even the better truck companies didn't really want to look at him because he hadn't been driving for a few years. And we didn't want him gone all the time anyway, that's not how we want to live. Just as his state unemployment ran out at 26 weeks and the federal extension kicked in, the sequester cut it by 10%. So he took a much lower paying job than we wanted to settle for. 1/3 pay cut. But at least it's full time, provides him with health insurance, and is much closer to home so there is some fuel savings. We landed softer than a lot of folks, and I am grateful for that. 

So I expect a lot of people will take the first halfway decent job they can get and downgrade their lifestyle accordingly. Which doesn't help the economy a bit. We are spending less on fuel, groceries, everything. Our household has put thousands less into the economy in this last year than the year before. Multiply that by how many millions of people who are affected by the cut?????

I agree spending cuts need to be made, but don't forget that employers do pay FUTA tax to pay for the federal unemployment benefits. They just need to cut it back to where the contributions cover the expense. In our case, DH's employer paid FUTA tax on him for over 30 years. He collected one, maybe two weeks of federal unemployment. I have never collected any.


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## littlejoe

AngieM2 said:


> Okay - there are all sorts of arguments for and against the extension - those comments and conversations are for other threads.
> 
> This thread is that it is happening now. The extensions have stopped. The unemployment was for 26 weeks for many years; but in recent years it was extended to 99 weeks.
> 
> There are going to be a lot of people hurting due to this. Rightly or wrongly, it's going to be happening.
> 
> What do you think we will be seeing, how can the ones loosing what they may have started depending on do to survive? or can most of them survive economically?
> 
> Will this cause more houses to be lost? More suicides as people feel more worthless?
> 
> If you know of someone that has been trying to get a job, and took the 99 weeks as a swollow your pride and take what you've paid into, and now is still out of a job, How do you help? Can you teach them anything?
> 
> I'm thinking along practical stuff for those that want to work, but do not find it. For those that have families that will need everything still?
> 
> Got any ideas, either of the ramifications or how to mediate the ramifications from being severe.?


Probably all of the above?

People that have been unemployed for this length of time are probably very proficient at it.

I'm self-employed with seasonal work. I've shed bone marrow to make it a viable business! It can vary, depending on year and weather cycles, and I have no back up. I still make do. Yet, never have I found a shortage of decent wage jobs in my off season. 

When I take off-jobs, I have found people who look forward to lay-offs and brag about how they get by when they are laid off, with cash under the table so they can still claim benefits. I've asked them if they think that is a free benefit, and almost all think it is.

People are going to get hungry at some point. And since we live in a groomed entitlement society, they are going to look at the people who have had foresight, and willpower to make plans for survival through some tougher times.

It's not even hard times like people have experienced in the last century, but still people are expecting someone else to take care of them.

Some peoples pride stand in their way, because they refuse to step down to a lower job. Some have no ethics and think they are owed a living. Some just refuse to think, and that's meant very literally.

Some overextend thierself with want's. Is that my fault?

I'm afraid of the tough times ahead of us!!!


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## littlejoe

elkhound said:


> notice the vets and disabled vets got hit already...now this unemployment thing....whats next?....there will be more much more.....but you can bet no one at the top gets cut...they cut from bottom up.


 Sure they cut from the bottom up. and then they make themselves immune to the laws they pass upon us!


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## Wendy

> The suddenness of it is what is going to be hard for people. If they had a little more notice this was coming, they could hustle harder for work, change things in their life to cut expenses, etc.


They should have started doing those things as soon as they became unemployed.


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## jwal10

MO COWS you are right, Congress did not renew the program. Hopefully they will sign something when they get back to Washington. I believe some states have a longer time than 26 weeks on their own. I think it is staged, both sides knew about it, what have they been doing on it. They let the cat out of the bag at Christmas to stir up as much resentment as possible. If they do nothing, they may get more than they bargained for. We will see....James


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## MO_cows

Wendy said:


> They should have started doing those things as soon as they became unemployed.


I would hope they did. But there is no motivation like a hard deadline -- when you know what it is!


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## Wendy

> But there is no motivation like a hard deadline -- when you know what it is!


And that is the problem. People have it in their head that they don't need to hurry as they can just suck unemployment for however long. That is the wrong attitude. My husband got unemployment when he lost his job, but he started looking for something new right away. He didn't wait until his unemployment was almost done. 

What is wrong with people??


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## farmerj

Ernie said:


> That's a ---- good strategy for it.
> 
> It's DOUBLE good.
> 
> First, you are producing food so one of your major expenses is cut down to almost nothing (assuming you're producing an edible product and not some GMO crop of grain destined for a commercial mill).
> 
> But second, people gotta eat, and they gotta eat pretty much every day.


I don't produce it. I just move it.

And if things go REALLY bad, I will always have a place to stay too.


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## homebody

In the past 20 years we have lived as far apart as 10 hr. drive one way for 1-2 years. I stay with the house, tend to bills, animals, grass. Independent thinker here, dh had to go with his employer (river construction) where the work was. Was not easy but we did it to have money to be debt-free. Never occurred to us to not be flexible, just did the best we could with the hand we were dealt.


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## TripleD

elkhound said:


> we are going to see what would have happened in 08 when this mess started.


 How about what SHOULD have happened in 08 ??? For the record I wasn't as prepared then as I am now...


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## Space Cowboy

Ernie said:


> Another thing ...
> 
> How many people do you think the low-paid, no-skill job market can absorb?
> 
> 5 million just got dumped into it. In another month, it'll probably be another 5 million. In 2 months, another 5 million.
> 
> Over the next 6 months, if they don't sign this, probably 30 million new people will be competing to work down at the car wash or to bus your tables at Cracker Barrel.
> 
> Even if they DO sign this, it's just delaying the inevitable.
> 
> Those jobs that were lost are GONE. They went overseas, they went to some immigrant laborer here for half the salary, or they became technologically obsolete.
> 
> In economic terms, you do not replace a $80k a year accountant with a $20k a year janitor and have a net gain for the economy.
> 
> And a lot of you who are making fun of these people or saying how they should get to work ... your lives would not bear scrutiny. You are on social security, or a pension, or disability, or you are simply waiting for YOUR job to disappear and think you're immune from what's facing those other folks.
> 
> America, as you knew it, is OVER. We are entering a brand new economic environment where it's going to be as hard to scratch up $100 as it used to be to scratch up $1,000.
> 
> If you're not prepared for that, woe unto you.


Thank you Ernie!
Angie was looking for some reasonable discourse and most that has been posted are rants about layabouts. I've worked VERY hard all my life and taken jobs that most of you wouldn't, just to feed my family. I got laid off 4 months ago and have been applying, looking, etc for work EVERY single day. The closest I came was a clerk job in a hardware store. They got one look at my age (59) and I've heard nothing back. I would take any job, they're just not hiring people my age. My unemployment runs out in a another month. I have some fallback ideas, but most people are just SOL. Ernie has the right lifestyle and I'm going down that road, but most people CAN'T. Sure there are jerks out there that could get a job, but there are MANY that can't. Those of you that think your jobs are secure, better watch out. The economy is going to get a LOT worse, before it gets better......

SC
PS I do have a part time job (5 hours a week)! It goes away in June.
PPSS I have applied for jobs in 5 different states!


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## TnAndy

farmerj said:


> I don't produce it. I just move it.
> 
> And if things go REALLY bad, I will always have a place to stay too.


While it works now, as a long term plan, you might want to rethink it.

As the cost of fuel increases, more and more food is going to travel less distance. Just plain economics.

I'm convinced one of jobs of the future is going to be producing local food in a BIG way.

A whole lot of the folks with job problems today are the ones that never looked down the road and asked themselves "Is my source of income something that could change in years to come ?"

Most folks DON'T have a prep mindset and the ability to look ahead to what might happen. The parable of the ant and the grasshopper has real basis in fact.


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## elkhound

this right here is very reason to be prepped for emergencies....did yall see viggies food thread eating from her stocks of garden goods etc this month? 

i think about every topic on this very forum addresses the very problem angie is talking about...food set back...cash set back.....low or no monthly bills.....trash anything monthly you dont need cell phones,tv,etc etc.

garden excess canned for hardtimes...buying extra of store sale items as you can....heating with firewood if thats possible in your situation.


how many here actually have crunched numbers and know how much they need to make daily to keep there current lifestyle going like earnie has?? i shocked some co workers once when i told them how much a sandwich costs to make....i said without hesitation how much each slice of bread cost and what it cost for what was on it.they all had a laugh..i thought i was normal......lol.....but i was saving for a home that i wanted more than anything....at end of work period i had a huge down payment for a home....i paid over 30% down payment so my monthly payment would be low and i could pile everything i made onto principle....they just thought they were going to make money off my back.


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## elkhound

p.s. i was not bragging i was trying to inspire others to put a plan into action.

and dont get me wrong i have lived periods of waste like everyone else...driving around country hunting and fishing etc having fun...but when i decided to own land thats what i concentrated on....and get back out of debt as fast as possible.


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## MO_cows

Wendy said:


> And that is the problem. People have it in their head that they don't need to hurry as they can just suck unemployment for however long. That is the wrong attitude. My husband got unemployment when he lost his job, but he started looking for something new right away. He didn't wait until his unemployment was almost done.
> 
> What is wrong with people??


So you honestly believe that everyone who is on extended unemployment is just treating it as a paid vacation??? I have to respectfully disagree, I have a higher opinion than that of my fellow man. Sure, there are some who are just milking it but I would bet they are the minority, by far. 

I personally know 5 people who have been on unemployment in recent years. Only one out of the five did not make a sincere effort to find a new job right away, and that person was a 20-something, not the most mature individual to begin with.

When there aren't a lot of jobs out there, and especially when college degrees are required so often now, in spite of a person's experience and work history in their field, the degree of difficulty in landing a new job you can actually live on goes way up. 

And again, we are talking about a benefit that the employers have already paid for, so letting it totally expire was not the right move to make, unless the FUTA tax was simultaneously abolished!


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## sand flea

Angie, since good paying jobs - the kind you can support a household on - aren't being created at the "old" pace (in fact, those jobs are still decreasing thanks to FT being defined now, as 30 hrs/week)... [ETA - all while businesses are being pressured into 365/24/7 operations]

People have to juggle kids, childcare and multiple jobs. OH - and it helps to not get sick... because it's not like PT jobs come with sick days. Anyone who can figure out how to make money on their own - sans job - may be better off trying that, and helping someone else out - lawncare, childcare, laundry, housecleaning, etc are all ways to make some bucks.

Any skill or knowledge you've got can be turned into something that people will pay you money for... woodworking, repairs, quilts, baked goods... produce & herbs.

Learn the "rules" of working for cash and taxes. 
Learn to cook mexican or mediterranean food: it's healthy, fresh and less expensive. 

If you don't sew - learn. Learn to patch, darn, and mend.

Don't throw out anything that can be recycled into something else or reused - even freezer bags can be washed and reused.

Keep looking for ways to reduce your expenses: how long can you make a tank of gas last? Can you find ways to reduce your power bill? What do you absolutely need in income a month, for the barest minimum expenses?

OH: and while looking for a job, any job... be honest, be prompt, be kind and do your best to be a "good investment". These days, the $$$ it costs an employer to hire/train/pay someone has gone up a lot too. If the business can't make a profit (and more & more CAN'T)... then, they're not going to be able to offer more jobs, either. Doesn't make them greedy corporate fat cats, you know? People need to remember to "interview" the people offering a job, too - and do your homework about what kind of business it is.

It's not the business owners making the rules these days. We know better than cutting off our nose to spite our faces; the gov doesn't. They are doing their level best to put the remaining businesses out of business... so far, my company is hanging in there; but come back and ask me how I feel after April 15, and all the new taxes hit.


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## logbuilder

I would not be surprised to see an increase in disability applications.


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## TnAndy

elkhound said:


> ......lol.....but i was saving for a home that i wanted more than anything....at end of work period i had a huge down payment for a home....*i paid over 30% down payment* so my monthly payment would be low and i could pile everything i made onto principle....



Good for you ! 

Most folks don't know this, but if you can pay 20% or more down, you don't have to pay "PMI"......insurance that covers the lender if you default.....and add quite a bit to the payment basically for nothing that benefits YOU.

We built both the new ( and only personally owned to live in ) houses we've lived in. And when I say "built", I mean drove every nail, pulled every wire, plumbed every pipe kinda build, not picked up a phone and called somebody to do it.

One of the REAL secrets of getting ahead in life is to build what you live in.....a 20-30 year mortgage drops to 5-10 years when all you need to borrow is for materials. Escaping 15-20 years (or more) of interest paid to a bank makes the rest of your life a LOT easier.


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## TnAndy

logbuilder said:


> I would not be surprised to see an increase in disability applications.


Increase over the last 5 years or so has already become HUGE. I saw the figures sometime back, and it was a LOT. People are using that to extend unemployment, in combination with a lot more folks taking SS at 62.

The result is going to be a crisis in Social Security ( from which disability also is paid ) in the not too distant future. 

IF you're drawing either, plan for NOW on down the road checks being reduced or means tested ( meaning if you have ANY other resources such as pension, IRA, 401k, probably even real estate ), you have "means" and won't get as much or none.


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## bowdonkey

elkhound said:


> we are going to see what would have happened in 08 when this mess started.


You know, that might be it Elk. Maybe this time the taxpayer and future generations won't be called upon to foot the bill of another bailout.


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## snowcap

bowdonkey said:


> You know, that might be it Elk. Maybe this time the taxpayer and future generations won't be called upon to foot the bill of another bailout.


We already are with minimum wage and the health care bill.

Both of those are bail outs in a way.
Only the people are doing them instead of the goverment.

Every time the goverment cuts money going into the economy it's felt by ever one.

This is going to mean less going out for hamburgers at the time when the fast food workers want a raise. That's going cause more job losses and a whole new batch that need those checks.


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## TnAndy

snowcap said:


> Every time the government cuts money going into the economy it's felt by every one.


Yeah, but every time the government *prints the money out of thin air*, to put into the economy, it's also felt by everyone in the form of inflation.

The thing for the government to do would be cut WAY down in size, go back to national defense, a court system, and quit meddling in economics IN ANY MANNER. History proves time and again govt is only capable of taking from one group and giving to another at the expense of everyone.


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## Ernie

Space Cowboy said:


> Those of you that think your jobs are secure, better watch out. The economy is going to get a LOT worse, before it gets better......


I posted this in another forum on the same topic ... someone had pointed out an article where this woman said she'd clean house, walk dogs, or deliver newspapers to survive when her unemployment ran out. Her "work ethic" was praised. Here's my commentary ...

*This is a downward spiral. 

In order to clean houses, walk dogs, or deliver newspapers she's going to have to find someone else with a job who is willing to pay her to do that.

Let's say Susie was an accountant making $80k a year. She paid someone else (we'll call her Clara) to clean HER house, walk HER dog, and deliver HER newspaper. 

When she lost her job, the person who cleaned her house, walked her dog, and delivered her newspaper ALSO lost her income. 

So now, both Susie AND Clara are unemployed and they're competing AGAINST each other now to clean Laura's house, walk Laura's dog, and deliver Laura's newspaper.

Oh but wait ... Laura's company sells widgets. Susie and Clara used to buy widgets from Laura's company. Now they're not buying and Laura's company is starting to talk about layoffs. 

Soon it's going to be Susie, Clara, and LAURA walking the streets and looking for a house to clean, a dog to walk, and someone who needs a newspaper delivered.
*


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## po boy

woman said she'd clean house, walk dogs, or deliver newspapers to survive when her unemployment ran out. Her "work ethic" was praised.*?*
Suppose she did that before accepting unemployment?
Suppose others in the same situation did the same?
I say the downward spiral slows if not stops!


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## TnAndy

You're correct Ernie, it is a definite spiral. 

THAT is the reason the govt feels the need to "pump" the economy. In the past, a dollar's worth of govt priming yielded many dollars worth of effect. Now it has dropped under 1:1 last time I saw it....they have simply printed too much, and misdirected what they have spent.

At some point, deficits DO matter.

This time around, energy will be the key to the spiral. ALL recessions of the past 100 years ended with a increase in the use of energy, mainly cheap oil. Oil isn't cheap anymore, and thus there will be no end to the spiral.

This isn't going to end well, or anytime soon......it is, I think, still in the early stages of where it's going.


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## wes917

Space Cowboy said:


> Thank you Ernie!
> Angie was looking for some reasonable discourse and most that has been posted are rants about layabouts. I've worked VERY hard all my life and taken jobs that most of you wouldn't, just to feed my family. I got laid off 4 months ago and have been applying, looking, etc for work EVERY single day. The closest I came was a clerk job in a hardware store. They got one look at my age (59) and I've heard nothing back. I would take any job, they're just not hiring people my age. My unemployment runs out in a another month. I have some fallback ideas, but most people are just SOL. Ernie has the right lifestyle and I'm going down that road, but most people CAN'T. Sure there are jerks out there that could get a job, but there are MANY that can't. Those of you that think your jobs are secure, better watch out. The economy is going to get a LOT worse, before it gets better......
> 
> SC
> PS I do have a part time job (5 hours a week)! It goes away in June.
> PPSS I have applied for jobs in 5 different states!



What is your field? Is there certifications you can get while looking for a job? Many can be gotten through a local agency for next to nothing. Some come from local community colleges and are fairly inexpensive. Things like this show your willing to go the extra mile, that's what got me in the door when I was laid off. It will also help fill a resume gap. If your not doing things like that it will be difficult as many others are doing them to best their chances for hire.


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## AngieM2

Space Cowboy, sorry for your perdiciment but you are talking about what I was getting to with this thread.

So, we have many that were sheeple, or just gave up looking for a job cause they looked and looked and looked.

Be sure to contact all your old managers and bosses if you got along with them well, they may know of a job. Heck, use facebook connections. 


But, I started this thread to be helpful (as this forum use to be) and not everyone caught by this shutting down of unemployment extensions are flakes and sheeple. But maybe if on 99 weeks of unemployment, they've already downsized, and planted the garden and all that. Could not sell the house as they were too upside down since the market fell out. 

There's been a heck of a lot of bad happening to good working people lately in the past few years, and we can hope 2014 to be better, but I would not bank on it.

So, what can we tell those at the end of their rope? What if they are not capable of holding those oil jobs? Or even know of them or how to get one? What PRACTICAL ideas can this forum come up with. 

Helping not condemning. Got any good ideas and practical tips for someone that's tried and tried, but now the final rug is being pulled out from under them.

(by the way, I'm not for the 99 weeks as it drug down our economy more than it helped in my estimation, but that is what happened, and we cannot undo it.)

Helpful hints?


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## AngieM2

And the second part.....

if no helpful hints are available for them, no one in the family or if a family that can offer a helping hand, or a spare bedroom. Or any of the other things...What happens?

If they go on welfare, will there be enough?

If they need food stamps, will it work?

Where will they live if they lose their home, especially if the projects are full?

What if YOU live where two or three families decide to "homestead" squat in a foreclosed home next to you?

What then?


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## elkhound

i hope they read this entire forum and act on it........your answers are this forum from top to bottom in my opinion.


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## partndn

I think it just comes down to what we think of as basics. 

I highly recommend reading the frugal tightwads threads in the forum here.

Also, I think access to the internet is a luxury to try to keep, as it can provide so much information and help, like here. If you have other perks/expenses, cutting them out helps. Things like cable and extra phone stuff, etc. can be done. And you don't miss it after a bit.
I think if people are living without t.v., even maybe off grid, then they are not the ones Angie might have in mind. Those folks have already moved to living without an income or at least a significant one.

Barter stuff. I love bartering. 

I'm a youtube fan. I have learned how to do a lot of "homesteading" type ideas from youtube. I've learned how to fix some things without calling a professional, etc. and how to expand canning skills, dehydrating, and many more.

Network and talk. The older I get, the more I want to be hermetized. But getting out and talking with folks can bring valuable info sometimes.. like hearing about a job, or if job is not the goal, hearing about who might like to barter. Except for craigslist type stuff, most people don't barter with folks they don't know and sort of trust.

Not for everybody, I know, but religion plays a part for me. If it does for you, don't let hard times make you fall away from a fellowship connection.

Deal in cash only for purchases. Keep from using credit and debit stuff as much as possible. Keeps you more real with the money you have.

If my income in the years 2000 - 2005 was X, then my income from 2007 - 2011 was 25% of X! Little better in 2012, and little better in 2013. I've resolved I ain't gonna have X, ever. And trust me, X was barely average for a single income household. Got tired of being disappointed and angry about it a couple years ago. I have a moment still here and there. But mostly I'm just "different" now. Different habits, expectations, and happier.

That's the main things that come to mind in general. For details, like I said, I really recommend reading the tightwads threads.. and looking for frugal and repurposing ideas for what you already have by checking here, youtube, and other sites for how to's.

I can't relocate. My parents are at an age where they depend on me for some things. Daddy, cancer stuff.. and mom getting early Alzheimers stuff. Moving is not an option for me at this time. I wouldn't trade any income for being near them. Shoot, we'd all shack up together if it got necessary. Ideal? no, but would do what is needed.


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## Raymond James

In some areas the loss of those unemployment checks are going to hit hard. The lines at the food banks are already pretty long with many who used to donate now being the ones to line up and get help. 

When those people who used to get unemployment no longer have money to spend small business will feel it pretty quick. The effect will mean fewer hours for workers in the local restaurants, stores. 

Some can and will now take any job regardless of what it pays or is. 

As to foreclosed homes it does the bank no good to take them if they cannot sell them. I think they should redo the loan and keep the family in it. If the house won't sell taking possession is the last thing you want to do. Now you got to provide security, mow the grass, winterize the pipes. Let the family stay and pay something while they maintain it so the bank doesn't have to pay someone to do it. 

During the depression a lot of young men were moved out of the cities into the WPA and put to work in rural areas. It gave them something to do, put food in the belly and kept them out of trouble. Large numbers of unemployed young men was thought to be a recipe for trouble.


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## Harry Chickpea

The variations of situations are far too complex to put in any nutshell. In the course of working I moved about sixteen times to "go where the work is." I could do it because my health was good enough, I knew how to live cheap and move quick. I could say that everyone needs to do that, but they can't. A person who has health needs that limit their abilities, relatives that need assistance, or a host of other problems simply CAN'T move, and many who can move would take a chance of ending up in even worse situations.

OTOH, some people who move find the changes amazing. I was talking with a fellow working at Lowes who moved from outside of Chicago to north Alabama. His property tax went from $10K per year to $500 per year on a better house.

Ernie has the basics of it, but even that doesn't cover what technology will be doing over the next ten to twenty years. The self-driving vehicles that Google and DARPA are working on have the potential to wipe out long range trucking as a job. Yeah, a guy will be driving around locally doing delivery and pickup, but once the trailer is loaded - boom! - driverless on interstates with real-time GPS tracking and onboard IP cams in case of hijacking. Chicken and poultry processing will get automated as soon as the sanitation issues are resolved. Sugar cane harvesting became automated when labor issues were exposed.

Years ago, when most people got rich they invested in stocks of companies within the U.S. A rich man might have a couple million on paper, but the bulk of that money was actually invested in companies that were providing jobs. With NAFTA and globalization, that money and those jobs went on a world tour.

The 99 week unemployment was never about making things "right" in a recession, it was about preventing rioting in the streets and protecting those in power from groundswells of outrage. The "Iceland Solution" towards bankers could never take hold in the U.S. because the Fed - which calls the economic shots IS the consortium of bankers.

Building armaments for WWII and draining Britain of capital was how the U.S. clawed out of the depression in the 1930s. That scenario has a far less chance of working these days.

The only marginally bright spot I see are employee owned businesses with poison pills. 

Advice? Learn how to live cheap, squirrel away what you can, but stuff that lasts, use homestead protection of assets, live in a low tax area and hold on for the ride.


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## elkhound

i just cant express enough the importance to get out of debt and downsize.you got to have a home and land to subsist on.look at some of europe how they live from multi generations under a single roof to foraging to city dumpster diving.one of our moderators here...Ken up on cattle forum who has passed away...done a great series in countryside magazine about going to europe to see some of his relatives and how they lived and what they gone to survive.i would have loved to seen more pictures of their small holding there.

harry chickpea has touched on many very good points....here in my area about all of factories have closed...not only closed but they have been dismantled and sold for scrap.EPA new regs is closing mines because of the decline in coal use.this is not a thing that is going to be fixed over night.it was a good run of high living but its over for the most part.there will be places that always has some work and has some type of prosperity going on...i hope.but theres only so much for so many.set up your life so outside influences has the least impact on you.

Pastor Fox has a few pointers.


[YOUTUBE]1bSHp0UZmKU[/YOUTUBE]


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## elkhound

heres just one solution....these folks are living comuunely...thats not for everyone but you get a few families with joining lots or acreage to form similar solutions.the less outside resources the more stable your life.


[YOUTUBE]R_96v72EgVE[/YOUTUBE]


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## elkhound

[YOUTUBE]hLJNsBm8HuI[/YOUTUBE]


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## elkhound

[YOUTUBE]6zraG7ryV2k[/YOUTUBE]


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## Callieslamb

I think there are several things we can do.
1. get on our knees and pray a long prayer of thanks that WE aren't the ones out of work. It could easily be us next time.

2. Think it through. What would you do if it WERE you? No matter what disaster strikes, it you aren't included in it - it's a good time to self-evaluate. Are we covered for this? How would we act if if were us. How would we hope others would act towards us?

3. What can you do to prevent it from being you? Need more education or training? Get it. Need to reduce bills/spending/debt - make it happen. Part of the struggle today is because people took too much for granted. Don't let that happen to you.


If we only learned one thing from this mess it should be that we need to be more self- reliant and not just in food production. We need to be educated/trained for a good job. We need to be more healthy. Etc.

What can we do to help? Stop being judgmental. Okay, some people messed up. They can't go back. Human nature is to do as little as possible until forced into it. Some have been blessed with an extra dose of being human. We can volunteer to teach those that want to be taught. Have some extra seeds or plants? Know how to can/freeze food? Find someone that would like to learn how to use them. Do you know of a great deal on something? Share it with others, invite them to ride along when you go. It will take time away from our own efforts for our families, but in the end, it won't hurt us. Our hearts need to be set on doing right, not doing them in. Do they deserve help? That's not for me to say. Maybe some do, maybe some don't. My responsibility is to help where it will be accepted, nothing more.


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## mnn2501

There are plenty of decent jobs out there, but in many cases you will need to move to get them.
I'll never figure out why people are so afraid of moving.


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## Ernie

mnn2501 said:


> There are plenty of decent jobs out there, but in many cases you will need to move to get them.
> I'll never figure out why people are so afraid of moving.


You are aware, perhaps, that this is a HOMESTEADING website and that some people may have animals, gardens, and a homestead that they've built up for years, right?


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## where I want to

Anyone can make a mistake. Some specialize in it. If everyone they meet is not going to be judgemental, when their own judgement is defective, they be will be stuck without change. 
One of the things that impresses me about immigrants who arrive here without anything, is how many use every opportunity to work something out. If they can't get a job, they make one.
Too many people get stuck by wanting what they had but can no longer have. The desire for the past keeps them from looking for what is there now.
So , if there is now nothing to lose as unemployment has stopped, then try anything rather than nothing. Volunteer to give your hand to a charity event- you'll make contacts. Look around to see if there is something that people would love to have someone else do and get them to pay for your doing it, even if it seems to have no future- you never know where it might lead. Volunteer at a hospital and casually inform people about your desire to work- someone may be looking for someone just like you to hire. Whatever you do, do your best as if you were getting big bucks for doing it. Someone may be impressed with your work ethic.







The one thing that all successful people have in common is that they tried something.


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## Laura Zone 5

AngieM2 said:


> Okay - there are all sorts of arguments for and against the extension - those comments and conversations are for other threads.
> 
> This thread is that it is happening now. The extensions have stopped. The unemployment was for 26 weeks for many years; but in recent years it was extended to 99 weeks.
> 
> There are going to be a lot of people hurting due to this. Rightly or wrongly, it's going to be happening.
> 
> What do you think we will be seeing, how can the ones loosing what they may have started depending on do to survive? or can most of them survive economically?


When you build your life around a single thing (in this case, a check) then in a day WHAMO it's gone?
These events show us what we are really made of.....

Fighters: This may be the kick in the pants they need.
Whiners: They will find someone to blame, and another source of free money / services.

It will force their hand to 'do' something.



> Will this cause more houses to be lost? More suicides as people feel more worthless?


Yes, I do think you will see a huge surge in forecloseures.
IMHO not more suicides. This is not the 1940's, where men felt that deep deep primal responsibility to do WHATEVER it takes to be the provider.
HOWEVER I do see crime going up. 
Folks who have NEVER committed crimes, now, robbing/stealing.



> If you know of someone that has been trying to get a job, and took the 99 weeks as a swollow your pride and take what you've paid into, and now is still out of a job, How do you help? Can you teach them anything?


IMHO those with this 'entitlement' mindset, are very unteachable.
Tough love.
or
If they have a 'teachable vein' in them, grab a hold of that, and when you see THEM putting forth a concerted effort, support them.(not financially, but emotionally, etc)



> I'm thinking along practical stuff for those that want to work, but do not find it. For those that have families that will need everything still?


We as a society are so spread out....'most' of us have 'some' family 'somewhere' other than where we are. Move to the work if you must.
Procrastination is a life sucking bad habit. AMHIK



> Got any ideas, either of the ramifications or how to mediate the ramifications from being severe.?


If one has waited until the 100th week to start looking for a job, this is a tough lesson to learn....but procrastination.....oy, life, sucker.

However, if they are IN that situation...if there are no jobs in their town?
Move.
Go to the work.
Humble pie is always on the shelf. 
Mac Donalds is better than homelessness.

Sell everything you have that's not nailed down.
Bass boat.
X box
Big Screen TV
Iphone
Ipad

Learn to live, below your means.

Find the churches in your area that offer free food. 
Then 'give back' by offering AND cleaning the church / the church yard etc.

The most important thing is you have to change the 99 week recipients mindset. 
They have to stop thinking 'entitlement' and start living 'responsibility'.


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## Tommyice

I can only talk about what I did a few years back when things took a bad turn for me. I do graphic design--worked on a freelance basis. Business was good, not stellar, but good enough for me to get by. Then I had one client retire and two (yes, that's 2) that died. One of them was about 60% of my work and his business was dissolved. I lived for a while on the money I put away for the "rainy day" since the forecast called for it. Since I was self employed, there was NO unemployment insurance. 

I did not need any public assistance--I have family that we treat each other as "safety nets." With the economic downturn, my services as a graphic designer were not in great demand. I had gotten rid of the cell phone (best 18 months of my life), kept my internet because the little bit of work I did have left required it. Housing was not a concern--my grandparents left a roof over my head and I'm next door to my father. (for those of you who don't know me, I'm suburban). Always had a garden and a freezer. Reintroduced myself to canning. Also, I always grocery shopped the way my mother did--like a Carter-era woman with coupons and loss leaders-- LOL. Generally speaking, food wasn't a concern--Dad provided the food and I cooked and cleaned for him. But I shopped like it was my money and he was impressed that his food bill actually went down while feeding two.

To feed the dog, I would do online surveys to accumulate Amazon gift cards. Amazon delivers dog food. 

I took alterations and sewing projects for cash. I was also sewing my own clothing from fabric that had "accumulated" (wipe that smile off your face Angie LOL)

All the while, I applied for jobs in my field and also a former vocation as a secretary (although I think they're called administrative assistants now. lol) No bites. No nibbles even. Jobs were pretty stark around here. Our newspaper used to have 12 or 16 pages of job listings. Now they were down to maybe four columns only. [[shudder]] Everyone I knew was unemployed and looking for work. The only ones I knew who had there jobs were public employees. 

Finally got a part to full time job at the chain pharmacy that is 1/4 to 1/2 mile from my house. If I didn't work until 10pm I would walk to work but I just don't feel safe walking home in the dark at that hour. When I started there (it's 2 years now) I worked days, so I walked saving me the gas for the gas-sucking truck. I took the job because *1/2 a loaf of bread is better than no bread*  The pay absolutely sucks and I still have a bit of freelance (which by the way has been picking up) but at full time it offered health insurance. Really good health insurance. Medical, vision and dental for a single person under $200 a month. WOW! Did get an new cell phone (Dad worries about me being without one) so I got a Tracfone--it's a dumb phone but does what it needs (which is sits in the purse until the battery dies).

Now that was a lot of words to basically say that my survival was not based on what I did but who I am. How I was raised and my attitude in life, to me, is the key. I saw what happened as being similar to being on a long road trip. Sometimes there's that stretch of highway that is under construction. The road is rough, sometimes just gravel, but eventually you get where you want to go. My grandmother was good for saying "suck it up kid" and I did. I did what was right for me. Might not work for others but it did for me. My family was also a large part of it.


----------



## po boy

Ernie said:


> You are aware, perhaps, that this is a HOMESTEADING website and that some people may have animals, gardens, and a homestead that they've built up for years, right?


 Sure, but if someone is drawing unemployment, it should not be my responsibility to subsidize that lifestyle if there are jobs available. It's no different than owning a home and living near family.


----------



## susieneddy

I would like to see the stats to see what ages are/were getting unemployment checks. 

One thing I have seen is that if you are over 55 the chances of getting a new job is harder than if you are 30 yrs old. Most business want you to fill out an application online anymore or at their location now. It is very rare if you get to meet with anyone unless they call you back in for an interview. 

Filling out an application online can take anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes. In 1-2 minutes you get a reply back saying you aren't qualified for the job. Well you know that is wrong since you have done that job before. 
A company can't ask how old you are but they sure can ask when you graduated from high school. Really simple to do the math which is why you get a computer generated response in 1-2 minutes or less


----------



## farmerj

Been proven even as young as 40, age discrimination starts.


Learned a long time ago, only one that's gonna care about me is me. Don't rely on any handouts.


----------



## davel745

AngieM2 said:


> Okay - there are all sorts of arguments for and against the extension - those comments and conversations are for other threads.
> 
> This thread is that it is happening now. The extensions have stopped. The unemployment was for 26 weeks for many years; but in recent years it was extended to 99 weeks.
> 
> There are going to be a lot of people hurting due to this. Rightly or wrongly, it's going to be happening.
> 
> What do you think we will be seeing, how can the ones loosing what they may have started depending on do to survive? or can most of them survive economically?
> 
> Will this cause more houses to be lost? More suicides as people feel more worthless?
> 
> If you know of someone that has been trying to get a job, and took the 99 weeks as a swollow your pride and take what you've paid into, and now is still out of a job, How do you help? Can you teach them anything?
> 
> I'm thinking along practical stuff for those that want to work, but do not find it. For those that have families that will need everything still?
> 
> Got any ideas, either of the ramifications or how to mediate the ramifications from being severe.?


Bank robberies lots of bank robberies.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Ernie said:


> You are aware, perhaps, that this is a HOMESTEADING website and that some people may have animals, gardens, and a homestead that they've built up for years, right?


Well if they been at Homesteading for years and had a job all this time plus 99 weeks of checks ,they may need to re think their plan . :runforhills:

I never worked anywhere thinking i would have that job tomorrow :umno:


----------



## Ernie

davel745 said:


> Bank robberies lots of bank robberies.


I guess you're being funny, but I don't know that it's untrue.

I went to our local grocery store the other day and there was a middle-aged woman there being led away in handcuffs with her young children in the car about to be hauled off by CPS. She was well-dressed, white, looks like any other mom out of suburbia.

The clerk in the store (a friend of mine) told me that she'd been caught shoplifting some frozen chicken and ice cream. She said that the shoplifter told her, when caught by the store manager, that she just wanted something nice to feed her children for Christmas.

Now I got mad and went out and told the police I'd pay for the food. It was less than $20 worth of stuff and while I don't have much money, I can ---- well afford that much. But the cops told me the store manager was pressing charges and there wasn't anything I could do.

I complained to the store manager (whom I also know) and was told that she's had so much shoplifting lately that the store owner has told her she HAS TO press charges on each and every case. The store manager said, "If she came in and said she needed that food but didn't have any money, we could have worked something out. We've got bathrooms that need cleaning and floors that need sweeping. But when they just try to sneak out the door with food in their pants, what am I supposed to do?"


----------



## Ernie

Sawmill Jim said:


> Well if they been at Homesteading for years and had a job all this time plus 99 weeks of checks ,they may need to re think their plan . :runforhills:
> 
> I never worked anywhere thinking i would have that job tomorrow :umno:


Which is more or less the right attitude about it. Your employer doesn't care about you. They may pretend you're family or a community, but they'll cut you loose in a heartbeat.

I just think this has caught a lot of people by surprise. They always thought there would be SOMETHING available to them and when they started looking they found out otherwise. 

I've been blessed because I could double down on a craft which has kept us fed and made the yearly tax payment, which keeps us on the farm. But you don't just pick up a craft or a skill the last week before the checks run out. It's something you really ought to have been working on all along.

But I don't think most people realize yet that _this is permanent._ This is not a rough stretch to get through. This is the new way of living. The music has stopped and if you don't have a chair, well, you're pretty much out of the game.


----------



## AngieM2

many of you are seeing and answering what I asked.

Some of you, really are not. I asked for not condemning, but helpful. 

Right now if I were a new member, or someone thinking of joining to get some help here, I'd think twice about it.

Some of the snarkiness of GC has dripped over to this thread, and that is so disappointing.

And Yes, I am trying to control this thread. There is a lot of good discussion, but some....


----------



## Space Cowboy

Thank you all for your input. Just a slight thread drift. My Preps have been the difference of eating well (or not at all). I am still canning and putting up what food I can, when I can (pun?). All in all, I could be far worse off then I think most people are. I have a fallback to a Homestead that doesn't have water, power, etc, but enough is there I can live. I have been prepping for something like this (or worse) for a long time. Back on thread. 
You wouldn't be reading this if you didn't believe *something* bad can or will happen. I got hit a little early, but I really do see the economy going down soon. Many will be hurting very badly when it does. I don't see prepping as lifestyle or fun past time anymore. I realize when there is major SHTF people WILL get desperate. Ernie, Forerunner and others have adopted the lifestyle needed to go on. Are you?

SC


----------



## AngieM2

Ernie said:


> I guess you're being funny, but I don't know that it's untrue.
> 
> I went to our local grocery store the other day and there was a middle-aged woman there being led away in handcuffs with her young children in the car about to be hauled off by CPS. She was well-dressed, white, looks like any other mom out of suburbia.
> 
> The clerk in the store (a friend of mine) told me that she'd been caught shoplifting some frozen chicken and ice cream. She said that the shoplifter told her, when caught by the store manager, that she just wanted something nice to feed her children for Christmas.
> 
> Now I got mad and went out and told the police I'd pay for the food. It was less than $20 worth of stuff and while I don't have much money, I can ---- well afford that much. But the cops told me the store manager was pressing charges and there wasn't anything I could do.
> 
> I complained to the store manager (whom I also know) and was told that she's had so much shoplifting lately that the store owner has told her she HAS TO press charges on each and every case. The store manager said, "If she came in and said she needed that food but didn't have any money, we could have worked something out. We've got bathrooms that need cleaning and floors that need sweeping. But when they just try to sneak out the door with food in their pants, what am I supposed to do?"


I am expecting to see more of this. Thank you for trying to help that Mother.


----------



## Tommyice

Ernie your post made me think of _Jean Valjean_. Time to re-read _Les Miserables_.


----------



## Ernie

AngieM2 said:


> many of you are seeing and answering what I asked.
> 
> Some of you, really are not. I asked for not condemning, but helpful.
> 
> Right now if I were a new member, or someone thinking of joining to get some help here, I'd think twice about it.
> 
> Some of the snarkiness of GC has dripped over to this thread, and that is so disappointing.
> 
> And Yes, I am trying to control this thread. There is a lot of good discussion, but some....


I don't really know how to be more helpful. People's situations vary widely. I could give advice on an individual situation, but not a broad plan to help everyone. It would be as useless as someone telling a 55 year old computer programmer to go lift and carry pipe in the oil fields. He's not even skilled enough to do that, nor is he in good enough shape to do that, and he certainly can't compete with the 25 year olds who are already lining up to do it.

Maybe it would help if I went through my own situation some?


----------



## elkhound

you need to at least...at very minimum cook all meals at home..buy in bulk....rice,beans,cornmeal and flour. if you can eat these items.

heres one example...at walmart a small jar of pickles or jalapenos cost just under $3 well over in bulk section you can get large half gallon jugs for aprox $3.50 ..a pint vs. half gallon.

stretchhhhhh dolllars


----------



## AngieM2

Ernie that would give some ideas, and I was ranting at a few of the actual put down posts, and snippy ones. I understand those feelings, but I was hoping more for helpful, than condemning. We've all got the sheeple condemning actions down pretty good. And many do deserve the snippy comments overall. It is what's been discussed here for years and years.

Now it's happening, less like a comet hit, and more like boiling the frog.

But some good people, that were just blind to it, are being awakened, and now is the time to reach out the convert from sheeple to preppers. And maybe, in a weird way - this will improve their overall life. Less McMansions and not seeing the family within, but smaller homes and learning about the family and how to work together.

I hope most of you can see where I'm trying to get to with this, with this group of 99% helpers and self-reliant people here can make a difference. We always could. And this section has been HOW to be self reliant and live with less reliance on others. Some just have started to be awakened to this need.


----------



## AngieM2

And I know this is very strange for here.

But for those that read a lot. Check out the book "Enchanted Barn" by Grace Livingston Hill. It's written by a 1930ish writer. About a family barely making it and ending up living in a barn. It's a light romance, and it is Christian; but the living conditions and all has always been a favorite of mine.
and the first book I put on the Kindle. It's free at Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Enchanted-Barn-Grace-Livingston-Hill-ebook/dp/B006FLEC2K

ETA: The first part of the book is what I am mostly referring to about working with little. The happy ending is a book given.


----------



## Ernie

Yeah, I see that. I also see that many of the people who are condemning aren't but a stone's throw away from being in that situation themselves. They're on the high end of the sinking ship and laughing at those who are drowning on the other end.

Alrighty ... so here's the Ernie story.

When we moved down here 2 years ago, we had a plan. We would use my high paying computer job to pay for all of the infrastructure we needed. Then I would quit that job in May of 2014, after I got my last big stock grant. That would have put about $180k towards the farm and infrastructure.

But the Lord had other plans. As a result of me focusing so much on getting the farm built, my employer decided that I wasn't "committed enough" and gave me an ultimatum I couldn't meet. I was let go in March. 

I wasn't worried. We had $18k in our pocket and I had started THREE businesses that I expected to bring in at least the meager trickle of income we needed. A backhoe operating, dirt-moving business, a hunting guide business, and the knife shop.

By June, the $18k was gone. Two major vehicle overhauls and some emergency repairs on the house and infrastructure consumed pretty much everything. Plus our living expenses daily were much higher than we'd realized. We'd never really sat down to to the math and find out what we were spending. We hadn't ever had to, considering a $5700 check showed up every two weeks before that.

By July it became apparent that the backhoe business was a dead dog. Wasn't making any money on it. Since all the equipment was paid for, I wasn't losing any money, but nothing was coming in. And it required a big "reserve" to operate. So we started selling off that equipment. That business shut down.

The hunting guide business is still technically going, since all it requires is a good pair of boots and some knowledge of the outdoors, but I haven't received much in the way of income from it. A few calls here and there but as a rule, most hunters in Texas don't feel they need a guide to get them from the truck to the deer stand and if they need corn feeders refilled then they can pay some high school kid to do it for next to nothing.

So the knife shop was our only income stream, and that REALLY sucked at the time. We got down to $6 in our pocket one week. I started looking for a part-time job, but couldn't find ANYTHING that would fit and not force me to give up everything else.

So some basic economics there ... I was pulling probably $45 worth of food for my family from the farm on a daily basis, which took about 4-5 hours of my time. An illusion I'd always had was that you planted a garden and could walk away and come back and harvest food. Unh uh. It takes real labor, especially when you don't have the infrastructure and good soil in place. So if I went and got a minimum wage job in town that took away that 5 hours of work each day, then we wouldn't harvest that $45 worth of food. We would have to buy it using the less than $35 worth of labor that I'd be paid for that time.

Now some might say, "why couldn't your children do that labor?" They could, and did. But children may be obedient and do what you tell them but still not be able to do what you DON'T tell them. It takes someone to actually be there and look and see what NEEDS doing. While my oldest son was perfectly willing and capable to haul a bucket of water down to the garden, he did not have the gardening skills yet to know WHEN that needed to be done. We weren't ready for full homesteading in that regard. We're better now and we'll be better next year and the years after, but this year was a struggle.

Around August we were in dire straits. All the money was gone and we had only a small trickle of income coming in from the knife shop. I need to sell a knife every 4 days, but back then I'd be doing good if I sold a single knife every 14 days, and my prices were a lot lower then too (because I hadn't learned to properly value my business at that point).

I got down on my knees and prayed. We started stumping for full-time work and prepared to abandon the farm and go somewhere else if needful. But I got an answer to my prayers: "Hang on until the fall," the Lord told me.

So I hung on. We got by. Income trickled in, just barely enough. We counted our dollars in terms of "how many days do we have left". And in late September, I was frantic.

I went out to my workshop one morning and just broke down. "You said to wait until the fall, Lord, and I did! It's the fall! Why haven't you helped us?"

No answer from the Lord, but I got up off my knees, wiped the tears out of my eyes and went back inside. In my email was a notice from a company who wanted to talk to me about buying some of my knives to resell. I called them and we worked out a deal. That bought us about a week of living, and I was thankful. Then, my cash register started ringing. Some various folks appeared in my life and gave me business advice which I followed. I raised my prices and my cash register started ringing.

Through the rest of September and until today, things just kept improving. Now my knives are being sold in a multitude of places and we're doing pretty well. We were getting by! I was very pleased, and then in mid-November, my wife's homeschool curriculum got picked up by a big reviewer and started selling like wildfire. She now makes more money from it than I do from my knife shop! 

We're not out of the woods yet. The Christmas rush is over and we expect both of our incomes to drop again, if not so low as they were last summer, but we no longer have any doubt that_ we will make it_. If I have to go get a part-time job somewhere then I will now see it as a "bridge" to cover the gaps in our seasonal income and not as a failure of our life plan.

While it is true that we can now live on a very small income, I have to be mindful that it took a very large income and its complete investment to get us to this point. For people who have not prepared for that, it is going to be a very difficult adjustment. I'm not judging anyone for their lack of foresight in this. I wasn't blessed with any exceptional wisdom in being able to see it coming. But y'all will remember that I was ranting about this years ago in this forum and telling people to prepare for a PERMANENT downshift. It's here now.

If you're reading these words, you still have internet and you have enough food to sit upright at the keyboard. That's a good enough foundation to build upon.


----------



## AngieM2

Thanks Ernie. I didn't know about that down time for your family.

And it's the initial investment to get the land that holds many back.


----------



## davel745

Ernie said:


> I guess you're being funny, but I don't know that it's untrue.
> 
> I went to our local grocery store the other day and there was a middle-aged woman there being led away in handcuffs with her young children in the car about to be hauled off by CPS. She was well-dressed, white, looks like any other mom out of suburbia.
> 
> The clerk in the store (a friend of mine) told me that she'd been caught shoplifting some frozen chicken and ice cream. She said that the shoplifter told her, when caught by the store manager, that she just wanted something nice to feed her children for Christmas.
> 
> Now I got mad and went out and told the police I'd pay for the food. It was less than $20 worth of stuff and while I don't have much money, I can ---- well afford that much. But the cops told me the store manager was pressing charges and there wasn't anything I could do.
> 
> I complained to the store manager (whom I also know) and was told that she's had so much shoplifting lately that the store owner has told her she HAS TO press charges on each and every case. The store manager said, "If she came in and said she needed that food but didn't have any money, we could have worked something out. We've got bathrooms that need cleaning and floors that need sweeping. But when they just try to sneak out the door with food in their pants, what am I supposed to do?"


I was half kidding but it will come to violence what are the sheeple to do? just die.


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## elkhound

gleaning is an option too but its seasonal and you need it close by to make it profitable for you.

a garden is so important...if you are growing flowers...stop it...and get vegetables in their place.this will put money in your pocket by not buying food.


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## elkhound

theres nothing crazier than a yard to mow....edible landscaping...i dont care what the neighbors think.


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## Tommyice

elkhound said:


> a garden is so important...if you are growing flowers...stop it...and get vegetables in their place.this will put money in your pocket by not buying food.


^^This is so important^^

When my downturn started, I had beautiful patio garden of flowers. That spring, I jokingly told my aunt (she lived in the building too and shared the backyard with me--it's a multifamily bldg) that I was only growing plants I could eat. Let's just say, she enjoyed the peas and chives that were planted where the petunias once were. LOL Now I've got four patio blueberry bushes, a barrel for strawberries along with strawberry pots (those multi-teired urn looking ones) another barrel for my garlic and the plastic, rectangular planters are getting replaced with wood ones this year (my grandfather had left me with an external stairwell for the butcher shop filled with wood that was used for making phone booths--anybody remember those things--and it's still usable). This is in addition to the regular garden, which was widened by the width of two rototillers passes.


----------



## TripleD

Last month I had 2 tenants asked if they could plant a garden this spring. I started telling all of them if they wish tiller up the back yard and plant all they can.

Get to know your neighbors now. Ive met most of mine within a mile.The good and the bad. You will at least know how to make the best of the situation.

Learn from somebody elses mistakes and sell anything that you can spend the money on to cushion your fall.


----------



## elkhound

and just so you know it can be done here is just one of many areas i grow in.this is my orchard/kitchen garden.i built from all waste stream ...mostly.i am always the first among my friends to be eating from garden...mainly because of my pre planned asparagus beds and a few raised beds as i can get in and plant during wet times in spring where a regular garden you are in mud up to ya knees.but all this takes planning....i just go for function over beauty.


----------



## plowhand

Ernie, you gave a prime testimonial example of something a dear Uncle tried to beat in my brain years ago....He'd say," Son, just remember that the Almighty may close the doors, but He'll open a window somewhere. You do what you can, He'll carry you through."


----------



## Tommyice

Elk--love the Jurassic Park fence LOL and the hand & asparagus porn.


OK back to original programming....


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## elkhound

how many stir frys do you see...at $10 a pop in town this will save a bunch



french fries and baked tater




my own grape juice freezer cups





in summer it aint a bit of use opening a can of pickles or buy one with a few cucumber plants...do refrigerator pickles....put in ya vinegar/water/spices add cucumbers ready in about a week...keep a few jars going so you dont run out.





garlic...so nothing is bland



ramps from the forest in spring before garden garlic is ready



odd planting of items keep goods trickling in so you can eat along and not suffer a glut of one thing and nothing of others


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## elkhound

Tommyice said:


> Elk--love the Jurassic Park fence LOL and the hand & asparagus porn.
> 
> 
> OK back to original programming....


you know i fight the deer and bear for every bite being surrounded by wilderness area....lol...buzzzz buzzzzzzz


as far as the other yall gals are a bunch of sickos....i love it.


----------



## elkhound

but wait theres more...man shouldnt live without a bit of meat.....i love my subsistence peasant lifestyle.....at this point in my life its about daily quality.





catfish i grew





organic red meat from my forest



something new i am trying blue dolphins oysters in my forest...this was a meat substitute during and after ww1 in europe.


----------



## WV Farm girl

Love all the pictures!
Survival is a mindset. I so often see people complain they are broke, but are smoking. Cigarettes are expensive! Quit. That alone shld give $150/ month in a pocket. 
Look at your diet. Beans and rice may not be fun to eat weekly but they are cheap. The Dollar Store can provide several meals cheaply if you can't buy in bulk. Cut out extras. All extras. Turn off lights. Use power strips for appliances and turn them off when not in use. Ask to glean neighbor yards and gardens. I got bags full of apples this year because the owner didn't think they were good. Apple jelly, dried apples, sauce and pies for nothing. Walked over my Dad's garden and picked up almost 10# of potatoes after he had harvested. Were they pretty? Nope but they cooked up well. 
Do what you have to. Get retrained. Nursing homes need nurse aides and sometimes offer the 2wk class for free. They will even pay for you to test. 
Those that want to survive, will. Those that want to whine, will. It just depends on who YOU want to be.


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## elkhound

once again not bragging.....just wanna inspire....by doing and showing my results....and i could do better but i am fat and lazy and watch to much youtube....roflmao


----------



## elkhound

you can even smoke if ya wanna.....get a pipe or a pack of rolling papers and grow ya own.

just one place that comes to mind

http://www.mypatriotsupply.com/Tobacco_Seeds_s/89.htm


----------



## mnn2501

Ernie said:


> You are aware, perhaps, that this is a HOMESTEADING website and that some people may have animals, gardens, and a homestead that they've built up for years, right?


And if you're going under because you have no income, you'll loose it anyway, to the bank or to taxes.

There's no law stating you can't own a homestead in one place and live and work in another, you may have to get rid of animals or make other arrangements. My FiL had a homestead in the country but had a small apartment in the city 150 miles away that he stayed at Mon-Fri for years, he finally found a good paying job closer but it took him 7 or 8 years of being away from his family weekdays.

I had a nice rural home in Wisconsin, great, big gardens I had gotten into shape over a number of years but I lost my job and couldn't find another, finally up and moved, first to Florida and then 13 years ago to Texas. I now have a much nicer home and even bigger gardens, and am making really good money in a job I enjoy. It is possible to start over again elsewhere and end up with just as nice or even nicer of a set up.


----------



## where I want to

Elk- that is one beautiful garden.


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## Ernie

mnn2501 said:


> And if you're going under because you have no income, you'll loose it anyway, to the bank or to taxes.
> There's no law stating you can't own a homestead in one place and live and work in another, you may have to get rid of animals or make other arrangements.


So what you're talking about is simply a "bridge", to get someone through the rough times? I may have confused your argument with some of the other arguments to just pack up and go somewhere else where there's work. As if we're all 1920 Okies in the Dust Bowl.


----------



## bowdonkey

where I want to said:


> Elk- that is one beautiful garden.


Yep Elk, those are some nice pics. Nice batch of bluegills. If hockey would give me a break, I would get out with the gang and catch a bunch. They say it's been slow, but I know they're lying! Do those mushrooms grow wild or did you inoculate trees. We have white oysters, my personal favorite. Some years they are so thick you can't gather them all.


----------



## bowdonkey

elkhound said:


> you can even smoke if ya wanna.....get a pipe or a pack of rolling papers and grow ya own.
> 
> just one place that comes to mind
> 
> http://www.mypatriotsupply.com/Tobacco_Seeds_s/89.htm


Oh, tobacco! ?


----------



## Ernie

I used to love mushroom hunting, but I can't recall the last time I even saw one around here. Just too dry, I suppose. I know there's got to be something, but mostly what I see on fallen logs and such is slimes.


----------



## elkhound

bowdonkey said:


> Yep Elk, those are some nice pics. Nice batch of bluegills. If hockey would give me a break, I would get out with the gang and catch a bunch. They say it's been slow, but I know they're lying! Do those mushrooms grow wild or did you inoculate trees. We have white oysters, my personal favorite. Some years they are so thick you can't gather them all.



inoculated...trying shiitake too.


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## wes917

Elk - love the edible landscape pics.

I unfortunately live in the city, probably will for the next few years, and we do this. We have two plum, a peach, 4 giant cherry bushes, 100's of strawberry and half a dozen blueberry plants spread out on our tiny lot. Have a garden and we use planters in the front to grow lettuces, etc.

It can be done just takes a little work


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## partndn

Elk, what are those cups you are using for grape juice? Look kinda like lab cups.  Do they take a screw on lid? How have they performed freezing?


----------



## wes917

Oh forgot to add we did a few tobacco plants one year to, I don't use it but want to try you just in case I ever need it for trade (better to learn now than later) my neighbors thought it was a tropical plant. Their actually kinda nice looking


----------



## elkhound

partndn said:


> Elk, what are those cups you are using for grape juice? Look kinda like lab cups.  Do they take a screw on lid? How have they performed freezing?



not sure if they are still available...ball freezer jars.....they are ok...the lids could be better but so far its the best i have found.they can leak if you dont set container up right till frozen solid.as far as the plastic holding up from repeated freezeing and thawing from year to year they are great the plastic is tough and not brittle in anyway as some others i have seen.hope this helps.


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## elkhound

these look similar...but have no experience with them

http://www.amazon.com/Bernardin-Freezer-Jars-Plastic/dp/B000FRUO5O/ref=pd_sim_k_6


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## elkhound

i also use them for chicken and other broths when i only have enough for a couple jars instead of canning since i dont have a full canner.


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## mpillow

briefly--I think that 99 weeks is too much....we are 3 years into "seasonal" employment our income went from 39k with some benies to 26k the first year and about 17k this year. We did not use the full 26 weeks this year...DH worked here and there and it stretched it out. 

He wont move for many reasons including pure laziness but we are debt free and able to produce a lot o four own food from our established homestead. I work my butt off but I stay home because DD12 is high needs. She helps tremendously. We do help out at the food pantry and benefit from it hugely. I try really hard to do my part down there from raking to shoveling to making mittens and donating handmedowns. Another friend is a butcher and we trade freqently with him....he uses our wood splitter and we get reduced butcher fee...right now he helps by bringing donuts/bagels for our critters in trade for a goat. 
Our parents are elderly and local and we help them with lots of upkeep as well. My mother often buys good quality thrift shop clothing for myself and the children....she loves to shop! It helps!
My sister and her husband help in so many ways lke paying for the two kids wisdom teeth extractions this past year. What a blessing!

My day is full from beginning to end....spare time I make a little walmart money through swagbucks...rice beans coffee toilet paper and food for cats and dog.....it all helps.


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## bowdonkey

Ernie said:


> I used to love mushroom hunting, but I can't recall the last time I even saw one around here. Just too dry, I suppose. I know there's got to be something, but mostly what I see on fallen logs and such is slimes.


Aren't there peyote buttons growing where you are? There's gotta be something to get loaded on.


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## Sawmill Jim

wes917 said:


> Oh forgot to add we did a few tobacco plants one year to, I don't use it but want to try you just in case I ever need it for trade (better to learn now than later) my neighbors thought it was a tropical plant. Their actually kinda nice looking


:hijacked: Find you some burley seed .It is a tropical plant .Grew 11 acres one year :smack


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## elkhound

heres one of the best selections i have seen for tobacco seed


http://sustainableseedco.com/tobacco-seeds/


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## wes917

elkhound said:


> not sure if they are still available...ball freezer jars.....they are ok...the lids could be better but so far its the best i have found.they can leak if you dont set container up right till frozen solid.as far as the plastic holding up from repeated freezeing and thawing from year to year they are great the plastic is tough and not brittle in anyway as some others i have seen.hope this helps.



We use these a lot to, got them a few years back at our local Wally World. I saw some there last time I was there


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## wes917

Sawmill Jim said:


> :hijacked: Find you some burley seed .It is a tropical plant .Grew 11 acres one year :smack


11 acres I'm on 1/10th or so


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## sand flea

A while back, there was a thread here in Gen Chat, about food pantries - having to throw out great fresh produce, because people simply didn't know how to cook, didn't think they liked that food, etc. I think we've got a whole generation that only has ever cooked in the microwave, now.

So, they don't have clue one about preparing food that comes out of the garden. They don't understand what a balanced diet is, either. That it takes both rice and beans, to make a protein substitute. That apples have vitamin C... not just oranges. They don't understand herbs and spices... they have to be taught this.

I'm going to bet that a lot of those folks couldn't peel a potato, or know that the peels also have nutrients in them. They have to be taught. Even my kids, I felt I had to write them: Mom's Housekeeping Tips for... just the things we take for granted that people know and know how to do. My D had to teach someone working at McDonalds how to use a broom, when she was 15 -- and she remains horrified at the lack of skills of people in her generation. That generation now has kids in grade school.

I'm seeing stories now on how many people are homeless. About tent cities. Communal living situations. It's only just starting. I've spent the last year, thinking about how I could fit my 3 kids adult households into mine, if need be. How much food I need set back; who knows how to do what; just in case it becomes necessary. (Fingers crossed; we're good so far.)

We have to keep reminding ourselves that this is permanent; this change that started in 08. There is yet more to come... and we could use all the depression era stories we can collect, too. People can adapt; they can learn. But we have to be willing to teach. And be patient with how foreign it all seems; they're beginners - we were once, too.


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## AngieM2

Sand flea, you've given me an idea for another thread.

And YOU can be very helpful by posting in it.


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## snowcap

I wouldn't leave here to find a job, it's easier to find food that to find enough to pay rent.
Ending up living in a car is not an option. There is enough homeless in this country.


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## Molly Mckee

If you are over a certain age, or have always worked in certain fields, it doesn't matter how long unemployment compensation lasts, it will probably run out and you may not find a job. Everyone should make plans as to what to do if they lose their job and cannot find another. In today's world job loss can happen to anyone.


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## wes917

sand flea said:


> We have to keep reminding ourselves that this is permanent; this change that started in 08. There is yet more to come... and we could use all the depression era stories we can collect, too. People can adapt; they can learn. But we have to be willing to teach. And be patient with how foreign it all seems; they're beginners - we were once, too.


I grew up with my grandparents watching me after school until my parents got home from work. I remember grandma always telling me stories from when she was young and had nothing, things her mom did to get them by as ggpa passed early. Seems I was the only one listening my dad and his siblings never paid attention. I still pick her brain and learn from her now, I am very lucky she has made it to over 90 a wealth of info and she's hilarious


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## Hobbes

Maybe I'm a bit pessimistic, but one thing that really helped ignite the fire under me is knowing that things will not get better in our country (variety of reasons). So, the best option then was to stop rearranging my own deckchairs on the titanic, and start building a lifeboat. A lot of people know we're taking on water (duh), but they think it's manageable, and that one day the ship will be floating back level and dry, and the carnival will continue. So they'll continue strolling around on deck, trying to keep their balance and pretend everything else is ok.

Until people get it in their brain that things will not get better, there is no sense of urgency to take abnormal measures. Early 2013 I had a few months of really good work and pay, but I knew it wouldn't last long. Sure enough, the announcement came about when I was expecting it. It was abrupt for a lot of people. However, I had poured a lot of that money into fixing up infrastructure, food, hardware supplies, and vital capital equipment, so that when the cut came, all I really had to do was turn my focus to the bridging income instead of everything else. I knew I could really tighten the belt down to the last holes if I needed to, since I had already anticipated the worst-case scenario. Until people have a serious personal reality check, and face it square on, there will be no meaningful action.


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## jwal10

People need to approach life differently. They need to get things in place to do it themselves. In the past 50+ years people have looked to Government to take care of them, when all that is gone how they will survive. Think of life as I have, I have never known when my health will fail so have things in place to be able to live. I have been off work sometimes for 3 years straight, never used any services, not even unemployment. I need a little cash now because I have these properties to maintain. I would have to sell some property but then that would give me cash. I can live at the off grid cabin without cash....James


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## 355946

Ernie said:


> So what you're talking about is simply a "bridge", to get someone through the rough times? I may have confused your argument with some of the other arguments to just pack up and go somewhere else where there's work. As if we're all 1920 Okies in the Dust Bowl.



I moved by myself to Alaska for work, knowing no one here, leaving friends and family thousands of miles away. I have been here several years in studio apts now, with a relative living on my land. Two years of money is too long and takes away the incentive to make changes.


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## stickinthemud

Break costly bad habits. Cigarettes, booze, soda pop, coffee (groan!), lottery tickets, internet, eating out, etc. After several years, drinking plain water is a habit, not a hardship.


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## tarbe

This much I know...the Government has been enabling people to not take jobs they didn't want.

That needs to stop. Sounds like poor parenting to me...enabling you children to mooch when they really just need a good dose of the hunger pangs to get them moving.

Tough love, I know. But sometimes necessary.

Of course, the politicians love to continue the giveaways because dependent voters are sure voters.


Tim


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## terri9630

Ernie said:


> You are aware, perhaps, that this is a HOMESTEADING website and that some people may have animals, gardens, and a homestead that they've built up for years, right?


We have all that and have moved several times for jobs. The last time I moved everything including the animals 800 miles with only the kids to help as hubby was already at the new place working. Its not easy, but not impossible and we are much better off here.


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## EarthSheltered

Ernie said:


> We'd never really sat down to to the math and find out what we were spending. We hadn't ever had to, considering a $5700 check showed up every two weeks before that.
> 
> The hunting guide business is still technically going, since all it requires is a good pair of boots and some knowledge of the outdoors, but I haven't received much in the way of income from it. A few calls here and there but as a rule, most hunters in Texas don't feel they need a guide to get them from the truck to the deer stand and if they need corn feeders refilled then they can pay some high school kid to do it for next to nothing.
> 
> Around August we were in dire straits. All the money was gone and we had only a small trickle of income coming in from the knife shop. I need to sell a knife every 4 days, but back then I'd be doing good if I sold a single knife every 14 days, and my prices were a lot lower then too (because I hadn't learned to properly value my business at that point).
> 
> While it is true that we can now live on a very small income, I have to be mindful that it took a very large income and its complete investment to get us to this point. For people who have not prepared for that, it is going to be a very difficult adjustment. I'm not judging anyone for their lack of foresight in this. I wasn't blessed with any exceptional wisdom in being able to see it coming. But y'all will remember that I was ranting about this years ago in this forum and telling people to prepare for a PERMANENT downshift. It's here now.
> 
> If you're reading these words, you still have internet and you have enough food to sit upright at the keyboard. That's a good enough foundation to build upon.


Ernie, I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. If you had reached out to this forum, I'm sure some would have helped, tho I know asking for what you probably consider a handout is not something you want to do.

I have taken some liberties with your post, deleting some things. But what I have left tells a story too. You, while often helping others on this forum and with your Bunker Index in the past, failed to take your own advice. 

*You never sat down and did the math* before moving off to Texas, I would KNOW exactly what it would take to survive.

*The hunting business is basically a dud* if you had done your research there too, you would have known that guiding in Texas is usually only on those big ranches, and they have their own guides in house.

*because I hadn't learned to properly value my business at that point* again, research before leaping in. 

*my employer felt I had lost interest and let me go in March *lets be honest here, you intended to milk this job till you got set up comfortably, then you would have left them as quick as possible. I'm not saying you are wrong in planning on doing so, but you had tunnel vision. Your Employer did not. 

I'm probably going to get flamed crispy for this post, but I think it is very easy, as Angie said to point out where others have gone wrong, without seeing our own faults in the mirror. :duel: Lord knows I have plenty of faults of my own staring right back at me! Procrastination is a major one of mine.

I am very, very glad to hear that both your business, and your wife's business are doing well, and I hope it continues.


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## EarthSheltered

I think if I lived in a McMansion (and you don't know how funny that thought is to me) I would be looking at how to rent out some of those underused rooms. 

I would also be thinking back about my _entire life experiences_ not just what my last job was. Did I learn to garden and can at my Mothers side? Did I learn how to quilt from Grandma, or how to fix tools from Grandpa? Those skills might not bring you cold hard cash, but they would bring in food, and perhaps items to barter. 

We gave up the TV over a year ago, and don't miss it. Whenever I suggest this same thing, the outrage!! the excuses!! the pity towards me and mine!!

Give up the TV, downgrade your internet speed (then you won't have time to fool around on utube) and most of all, downgrade your phone. Pretty soon, the cell phone companies will not make (or have made) a phone that can be used WITHOUT data plans. Do you, or your children need to be connected constantly? 

I wish I had the perfect answer to Angie's questions. But I don't. I am blessed that I have a good strong family that work together, live in a rural area, and have some basic skills. We are pretty self sufficient, but there is always room for improvement.

Think how far ahead of most people we are. Everyone on this forum has been thinking about this for years giving us a bit of a lead. Soon, we will all be sinking together no matter what plans we had. Sickness or accidents worry me to death. Medicines will be the new gold.

Will greed and selfishness win out in the coming years, or will we all re-learn how to become a community helping our neighbors in time of need? Or will our neighbors just expect us to help, and not help in return? Humans are the wild card. You can plan all you like, but you cannot predict how humans will face adversity.


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## chickenista

I am surprised to see a lack of real thought about the repercussions going in to this.
Yes.. front yards with veggies are very pretty and very handy, but that isn't a realistic view of what is happening.

Ernie was right, but let's expand on that.

Hometown, USA.
Jack and Diane saved up their money and bought 10 acres. They stuck a double wide on it until they could build their dream house. Jack works at the plant and Diane waits tables at the Blue Plate Diner. Their shifts are a little different, so they each have a vehicle.
Jack gets laid off, along with a lot of other guys when the plants closes down. It's tight and he's looking, but not much is happening. Diane is still working and he has his unemployment while he is looking and hoping that someone will buy the plant and re-open.
Then he loses that.. so does everyone else that was working at the plant and the guys from the mill a few miles over.
Then the Blue Plate has to close because no one is coming in to get lunch or popping in for a quick breakfast anymore.
So Diane is out of work. 
They lose their place and both cars. Where are they going to go. He could go to his brother's, but they are about to lose their place too.
Jack and Diane have 2 neighbors, Tony and Louise.
Tony is a mechanic down at the brake shop and Louise grooms dogs.
They were feeling pretty good... things got a little tight when the plant closed, but they were doing ok.
But with the unemployment checks gone, no one is grooming their dogs and the brake shop finally had to fold.
Tony and Louise just lost their spot too.
In Hometown, USA the hair salon closed up and so did the coffee shop. The bowling alley guy moved to the oilfields and put his 5 employees out of work.
Then Sluggo's QuikStop and Gas just had to fold. With no one really buying gas he just couldn't hold on. So his shift workers are out of work.
And losing their places too.

I cannot imagine where these good folks are spending their nights.
Or how they are buying food. Or buying a winter coat for the kids.
Now stretch this over the whole country and over a million families.
With more families who have lost their jobs 24, 20, 19 weeks ago who know that in a few more weeks they are going to be out.

It is not all about the unemployment check, but about the whole system.
We are watching the very opening scenes of an epic horror movie.
At least in the Depression people had a bit of know-how.
Yeah.. the cities suffered, but the small towns were a bit better off.
They had some farmers, some barter, an infra-structure that could squeak by.
We don't have that now. 
We are so monumentally .... in trouble.


So.. what ever is the bank to do with all of these empty properties just sitting around...?
Well.. I guess they could lease them out to the oil companies for some fracking or something. Get a little money out of them maybe.


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## elkhound

chickenista said:


> I am surprised to see a lack of real thought about the repercussions going in to this.
> Yes.. front yards with veggies are very pretty and very handy, but that isn't a realistic view of what is happening.
> 
> Ernie was right, but let's expand on that.
> 
> Hometown, USA.
> Jack and Diane saved up their money and bought 10 acres. They stuck a double wide on it until they could build their dream house. Jack works at the plant and Diane waits tables at the Blue Plate Diner. Their shifts are a little different, so they each have a vehicle.
> Jack gets laid off, along with a lot of other guys when the plants closes down. It's tight and he's looking, but not much is happening. Diane is still working and he has his unemployment while he is looking and hoping that someone will buy the plant and re-open.
> Then he loses that.. so does everyone else that was working at the plant and the guys from the mill a few miles over.
> Then the Blue Plate has to close because no one is coming in to get lunch or popping in for a quick breakfast anymore.
> So Diane is out of work.
> They lose their place and both cars. Where are they going to go. He could go to his brother's, but they are about to lose their place too.
> Jack and Diane have 2 neighbors, Tony and Louise.
> Tony is a mechanic down at the brake shop and Louise grooms dogs.
> They were feeling pretty good... things got a little tight when the plant closed, but they were doing ok.
> But with the unemployment checks gone, no one is grooming their dogs and the brake shop finally had to fold.
> Tony and Louise just lost their spot too.
> In Hometown, USA the hair salon closed up and so did the coffee shop. The bowling alley guy moved to the oilfields and put his 5 employees out of work.
> Then Sluggo's QuikStop and Gas just had to fold. With no one really buying gas he just couldn't hold on. So his shift workers are out of work.
> And losing their places too.
> 
> I cannot imagine where these good folks are spending their nights.
> Or how they are buying food. Or buying a winter coat for the kids.
> Now stretch this over the whole country and over a million families.
> With more families who have lost their jobs 24, 20, 19 weeks ago who know that in a few more weeks they are going to be out.
> 
> It is not all about the unemployment check, but about the whole system.
> We are watching the very opening scenes of an epic horror movie.
> At least in the Depression people had a bit of know-how.
> Yeah.. the cities suffered, but the small towns were a bit better off.
> They had some farmers, some barter, an infra-structure that could squeak by.
> We don't have that now.
> We are so monumentally .... in trouble.
> 
> 
> So.. what ever is the bank to do with all of these empty properties just sitting around...?
> Well.. I guess they could lease them out to the oil companies for some fracking or something. Get a little money out of them maybe.



amen chickenista.... people just dont get it....the factories are gone and or leaving....up here on the mtn the factories are being torn down and sold for scrap.....nothing but a slab left where 1000's use to work.you cant snap ua fingers and make a factory over night....its takes time and what do people do until a new factory is built..if one is built.

they are missing the domino effect...the new EPA regs shut down coal power plants...which in turn is shutting down our mines..which is shutting down support manufactures from milling parts show to heavy equipment purchases and the list goes on and on.and that just here in our area...not to mention the effect it has on all the buisness these workers spend their money on.

this thing is going to be ugly and they had it on life support for afew years now....its getting ready to be time to pay the piper....and its just not here...its global...look at whats going on..riots..sales..lack of goods being shipped.


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## plowhand

What is coming will probably make the troubles in the 20's and 30's seem like a cakewalk.


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## paradox

I think the majority of folks these days need to retrain themselves in the old ways of discerning needs (needed to survive) vs wants (everyone has cable tv and smart phones so I cannot live without them either). Secondly, the reason most people struggle is because they don't know how to use money wisely and cut corners (food is a need, but eating out every night is NOT a wise use of your food budget). And lastly I think many put the cart before the horse by deciding what kind of life and how much stuff they want to have and then trying to find a salary to make that work. Rather than just getting a job and downsizing to live within those means. Jobs are available (I see hiring signs everywhere) but folks won't take them because it isn't enough money to sustain the lifestyle they want. Get a job, any job - then keep your resume handy to keep applying for something that pays better. Work your way up, but continue to live within your means the whole time. 

My point to all of this is that I think it is time to get serious and do a better job of educating people on how to help themselves and make better decisions. Budgeting should be taught in schools as well as the homes. It should be a standard class required for anyone on any kind of assistance and that would be one class I would not mind having my taxes used to pay for.


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## Ernie

paradox said:


> It should be a standard class required for anyone on any kind of assistance and that would be one class I would not mind having my taxes used to pay for.


Three problems with your line of thinking ...

1. You are making a huge assumption that everyone on assistance doesn't know how to budget and squandered their money, which is what put them on assistance in the first place. That is not true. I'm sure quite a few people ended up on assistance, not through mismanagement of fund, but because of a complete lack of funds. Hard to budget what you don't have at all.

2. You'd start with a budgeting class, and then someone would want to add a basic cooking skills class, and then a job interviewing class ... and pretty soon you have a full-time student in "life skills" with no time to go out and look for work.

3. Who would be in charge of teaching these budgeting skills? The government? Look at what a fine demonstration of budgeting skills THEY have been giving for the past four or five decades.


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## paradox

Ernie said:


> Three problems with your line of thinking ...
> 
> 1. You are making a huge assumption that everyone on assistance doesn't know how to budget and squandered their money, which is what put them on assistance in the first place. That is not true. I'm sure quite a few people ended up on assistance, not through mismanagement of fund, but because of a complete lack of funds. Hard to budget what you don't have at all.
> 
> 2. You'd start with a budgeting class, and then someone would want to add a basic cooking skills class, and then a job interviewing class ... and pretty soon you have a full-time student in "life skills" with no time to go out and look for work.
> 
> 3. Who would be in charge of teaching these budgeting skills? The government? Look at what a fine demonstration of budgeting skills THEY have been giving for the past four or five decades.


1 - Who doesn't have anything at all? Even the homeless person begging for change needs to know how to make that change go as far as possible. If they are working or on assistance they have money that has to be managed properly. Also I don't assume everyone on assistance got there through bad choices. I completely understand lots of jobs just up and disappeared. But I am certain they won't ever get back on their feet if they make bad choices while trying to claw their way back. So IMHO it is a skill everyone needs.

2 - I have seen many church and charity groups that teach the life skills you mentioned, so that is already in place in most areas. It doesn't take up their entire day and they don't stay in it indefinitely. They get free haircuts, nice clothes, help with a resume and tips on doing well in an interview usually. Different programs probably vary in what they offer and how they do it, but help is out there.

3 - No the government has proven they are completely incompetent at budgeting or spending money wisely. The OP's last sentence was kind of a "what can we do to help". I think those of us who do have budgeting skills need to be more willing to share that with others and need to make darn sure we drill it into our own kids. As for who teaches the class - Dave Ramsey or other budgeting experts have programs easily obtainable (websites and radio shows) and many are free of charge. 

The best answer is NEVER for the government to do these things, it is always done best on a local level. Because the government will just throw money at it without ever trying to deal with the root of each individual's actual problem. Solving the problem that keeps them down, is the only way to help them up. Government is not cable of it and never has been. Those who hear conservatives talking about getting government out of the welfare business seem to assume we want everyone to starve - not true at all. We simply see their methods are an absolute failure and want to get back to basics of the people helping the people.


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## Ernie

paradox said:


> The best answer is NEVER for the government to do these things, it is always done best on a local level. Because the government will just throw money at it without ever trying to deal with the root of each individual's actual problem. Solving the problem that keeps them down, is the only way to help them up. Government is not cable of it and never has been. Those who hear conservatives talking about getting government out of the welfare business seem to assume we want everyone to starve - not true at all. We simply see their methods are an absolute failure and want to get back to basics of the people helping the people.


But yet you used the word "required". Who would have the authority to "require" a person to do something except the government?

That's the conservative paradox (no pun intended). They complain about the problems of government, but want to use government to solve those problems.

The same thing the liberals do.

I've never seen a whit of difference between the two.

Jobs ARE coming back to the United States sooner or later, but it's going to be when we're a third world nation whose wages are cheaper than everywhere else.

People need to start learning to live in that paradigm or they're going to be in a world of hurt. Those who still thump their chest and crow about American Exceptionalism will be the last ones to see it coming.


----------



## paradox

Ernie said:


> But yet you used the word "required". Who would have the authority to "require" a person to do something except the government?
> 
> That's the conservative paradox (no pun intended). They complain about the problems of government, but want to use government to solve those problems.
> 
> The same thing the liberals do.
> 
> I've never seen a whit of difference between the two.
> 
> Jobs ARE coming back to the United States sooner or later, but it's going to be when we're a third world nation whose wages are cheaper than everywhere else.
> 
> People need to start learning to live in that paradigm or they're going to be in a world of hurt. Those who still thump their chest and crow about American Exceptionalism will be the last ones to see it coming.



When I said "not the government" I actually meant the Federal government. Local state or city government is an entirely different animal in my book. But even if we say private groups handle this and not local government...

My boss requires me to do things in order to receive my paycheck all the time. My church requires me to take a membership class if I want to join. If local groups are the ones handing out the checks or food, they can make taking a simple class a condition of receiving the help.


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## farmerj

and the gov't TRIED to require people to do things to earn a wage.

and portions of that were deemed unconstitutional.
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1851.html


http://cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/unrau-williss/adhi.htm


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## Ernie

Awesome. So I'm trying to put myself in the place of someone who is sitting on their 98th week of unemployment.

The government's regulations and economic policy is probably what cost them their job and is preventing them from finding another one, and now the good ol' "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" conservatives (many of whom are on social security or pensions) are advocating that they go out and dig ditches for the government now to stop being freeloaders.

I'd be ticked off enough to start a one-man revolution at the end of week 99.


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## farmerj

Ernie said:


> Awesome. So I'm trying to put myself in the place of someone who is sitting on their 98th week of unemployment.
> 
> The government's regulations and economic policy is probably what cost them their job and is preventing them from finding another one, and now the good ol' "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" conservatives (many of whom are on social security or pensions) are advocating that they go out and dig ditches for the government now to stop being freeloaders.
> 
> I'd be ticked off enough to start a one-man revolution at the end of week 99.


Someone needs to dig them.

If it's good enough for our troops to live in less than comfy conditions, then I say let them sit in a tent camp being put to use.

Lots of small infrastructure work that can be done with manual labor.

I addressed my situation and did something. Could have very easily sat on unemployment for another 99 weeks.


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## paradox

Ernie said:


> You are aware, perhaps, that this is a HOMESTEADING website and that some people may have animals, gardens, and a homestead that they've built up for years, right?


Ernie I didn't take the OP's question to be about how it will affect only homesteaders. I thought she was asking what was going to happen to people in general - very few of whom are homesteaders or even own any land. I think others read it that way too and are responding with city dwellers in mind.


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## Wanda

I guess my question is where are all these jobs at that people are supposed to move to. There are some local jobs available here but they are not that many. When I and 200 other people spot those 50 jobs and move to them there are still 150 out of luck. Now that you moved over a couple of states your support group is gone for help. Now there are 150 strangers needing a hand up from the community. Why not just give them a bus ticket with the last check and let someone else worry about it. Maybe the ones coming your way will be better.


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## paradox

Mercy - if I had a dime for every excuse on here explaining why it is just too hard to move, or too hard to work low paying jobs, or too mean to expect someone to have to work at all for anything - I would be rich.

I know several people who moved to work in the oil boom of the Dakotas, and out to Odessa in Texas, one just moved his family to Ohio last week because that is where he had been working (away form his family for over a year). They finally found someone to rent their house here and the wife and kiddos have gone to join hubby so they can be together. When I was a kid my brother came over from NM to stay with us for a couple days. While he was visiting he went out and applied for several jobs and got offered one. The economy where he was is still in the toilet so he is glad he got his family out when he did.

When we moved to the town we are in now (I was 13) we lived in a barn with a dirt floor and no electricity or running water. The barn provided shelter from elements but other than that we were camping. We had sold nearly everything we owned to get that barn and then bought lawn chairs (the kind that lay down for beds too) at garage sales for furniture. Still remember asking folks to save us their milk jugs because we would fill them up with water from town or from the creek and set them out in the sun to get warm so we could use them to take sponge baths. We have come a long way since then and I don't wish those circumstance on anyone. But I am grateful that I know it is possible to not only survive that, but to gradually prosper ourselves out of it. 

Desperate times call for desperate measures and it truly is sink or swim. But if all you do is sit around and think about how hard or horrible it will be to make that first stroke, then you will surely sit there until you sink.

I think for those of us not in dire staits - we need to be on the look out for how we can help those who are in ways that will give them a hand up and not just a temporary hand out. Help them learn a skill if you can, or help them hunt for jobs, be an encourager for them and remind them that they CAN DO THIS!


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## chickenista

If someone tried to live like your family did then in these days, the cops would be there in 5 minutes to take the kids etc..
Times have changed. You cannot compare the past anything with the present now.

And it is great that you know of people who can move, truly. Great news for them.
They must have still had a car to drive there and gas money to put into it and enough money for housing when they got there.
Fantastic.

Please realize that some folks still have that level of mobility.
Others do not.
Nor will they get it any time soon.

This is a classic example of how much you have to have in order to get something.


And until it gets much, much, much worse no one can live in a barn with their kids without trouble.
However.. the time is coming where you can live in a barn..because so many people will be on that level of hard times.


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## farmerj

put some numbers to that.....

Move from cleveland OH to Minot ND. Distance of 1250 miles.
http://goo.gl/maps/wCMso

With a pick up that gets 15 mpg, that's gonna take 84 gallons of fuel and a good 24 hours solid non-stop driving.

At $3.229 gallon average right now in the midwest that's gonna cost you $271.
http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/

Gonna need to eat, give you the benefit of the doubt that you got a bit of stores built up, probably have most of that. 

You get to the other end. Sure hope you have a job lined up already. Hopefully.

Rent is going to run you $550ish, so plan on having a couple months rent and utilities to get it all hooked up and in place, going to need another $1500 there. (two months rent is $1100 alone for first and last month)
http://www.city-data.com/housing/houses-Minot-North-Dakota.html

So now you are up to needing $1770 and you haven't even gotten there yet.


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## Ernie

I keep hearing this mantra "move to North Dakota, work in the oilfields and get in on the boom."

Keep in mind I live in West Texas and I can see the results of the previous boom right in front of me every day. Derelict towns and factories, extreme poverty.

That "boom" some of y'all want to go chase will always be just over the next horizon.

Better to buckle down in place, where you've got land, friends, and family and try to find a way to survive.


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## chickenista

North Dakota will be the California of this disaster.


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## Sawmill Jim

I know folks here that wouldn't chase the boom either . I left the wife here ,lived in a small travel trailer and got payed really good . Yes some booms run for just a few years . Also if one was doing rig work some of those Co furnish room and board . Some ran 15 on and 15 off some just stuck it out for as many days as they could . Most got end result pay like a thousand to three thousand at the end of that job . 

They even had a tent city set up . I know one restaurant that closed where i was because of lack of help ,start pay was $13.00 plus tips . Tips there were great too . We tried getting some of the local unemployed from here to go with no luck only one other from here went . :awh: Big thing when i was there many failed the drug test :smack So yea there are lots of reasons not to chase a boom . If i were younger i would be there now even $40.00 a hour beats nothing :awh:


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## Wanda

I will play the game. If we were able to fill every job available in the oil fields of N Dakota how many people were put to work? Where do the rest of the people needing a job go? While these folks are packing the cars we can figure out where those ''upgraded'' jobs are that people speak of. Those are the ones for the folks that got more education so they could give the high school kid there minimum wage job back.


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## AngieM2

When your next door neighbor, and the one down the road, and the one behind you gets desperate, what then? Older people stills working, until their age got them laid off as they made more per hour than the new hire? They have a couple of years or more to go paying on their home, but no income when this stops.

I am not for the 99 weeks, never really was as I expect it set people up for a larger fall. And I think NAFTA has a lot of responsibility for the job situation.

But what I think about all of this has nothing to do with dealing with the conditions that ARE, be it city, small town or out in the boonies. What are those people going to do NOW. Not later, not learn something that takes much time.

How much guts do they have to get through this? will the big houses be abandoned and 10 people move in and squat to get by? What about garages becoming homes, or barns? 

This could get that bad in some or many areas. 

THIS is what has been talked about in this forum since at least 2005, what we've been trying to be ready for, but how many of the sheeple do you love? And yes some are still sheeple, but others just were not exposed to the topic to learn.

I am looking down a long bridge, what is that light at the end? compound survival or disaster?

View attachment 20503​


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## Guest

My father worked for the union as a operating engineer..the work dried up and my dad was on the verge of loosing everything he owned( my dh learned that his company was doing mandatory furloughs and dh was one of them..so we didn't have money to loan him) ..unemployment & health insurance had run out and my dad is 65 yrs old...no one wants to hire a "older" person! 

One day dad showed up at my home with his little car packed and told me he had $750 to his name and was heading to North Dakota to find work..said he had no choice and had everything to lose so he needed to do what he needed to do to try to save his land..he left on a Sat arrived on Monday by Tuesday he was working living rent free..electric,hot water included,housekeeper, in a home that he shared with 3-strangers that work for the Oil fields.

My dad averages $1200 take home a week,free health,dental & vision insurance (after only working there 3-weeks )he bought a used camper that sits on the same lot with the same bonuses of free electric,hot water ..PLUS.....the company "pays" my father $15 everyday he works(tax free)and cuts him a check each month which is $600 the reason? it frees up another room for the next employee..

My brother also a operating engineer working for the same Union ended up being in the same boat as my dad..My dad had my brother a job in 1-day including the free health insurance.. My brother left his family behind ( 2-boys ages 15 & 13 plus my sil) he averages no less then $1200 take home a week..he works for 3-months then comes home for a month then returns to North Dakota.

Im proud of both of them..they did what they had to do to pay there bills..even leaving their families behind! Btw..we live in NY.

So I would say yes there is lots of work in North Dakota with lots of benefits if you fit the job..

My dad saids every where you look business's are begging for help..Super Walmart pays $15 a hr it might be more now as that was 5-months ago..


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## sidepasser

Some people use the "can't move" as an excuse though. I have offered to put more than one person up at my house if they really want to come to Huntsville to look for a job (of which there are many compared to where I came from). I have YET to have one of those people take me up on it.

I know some can't just "up and move" but if you know your company is folding, going out of business or you are about to get laid off, the time to do something is BEFORE that happens. Those things don't just occur, there are signs in advance that the company is in trouble or about to lay off folks. 

Some folks just believe it will all work out and sometimes it does. Other times they lose everything including their home. I think 99 weeks of unemployment does make it easier to say no to jobs that one would take if they had no money coming in. I have heard people say that they "won't do that kind of work, cause they have a check". Many know how to game the system too, they know that they have to apply to three jobs a week so will apply to jobs they know they won't be qualified for or at places they know are not hiring. Then they can show they applied and still get the check. Other folks won't work for a penny less than they were making so won't apply for lesser paying jobs.

Those that really and truly cannot find a job doing anything, perhaps retraining would be more appropriate than to keep them on unemployment forever. Seems that these long term unemployment benefits are being another form of welfare. 99 weeks is over a year, I believe in over a year I could find a job, even if it was sweeping floors or mucking stalls or milking cows or cleaning houses, babysitting, house sitting, the list is endless of jobs that people hire others to do. 

I bet there will be an uptick in the number of people who find jobs now that the long term check is cut off. Perhaps that will shake out those that really want work from those that have no intention of finding a job. 

I also know it is expensive to move; however, many companies will pay moving costs if you have a skill that is in demand. My company paid my moving expenses so I know it is still being done. Of course in a perfect world, there should be at least enough money saved back that if one has to move, one can. That is part of preparing for the future. Most people don't do that anymore, they live day to day. Many don't even have food for a week, they buy groceries every day. I know people like that and they say everyday that they have to stop at the store on the way home to get something for dinner. These are not dirt poor folks either, these are your upscale, got big salary folks that I work with. I wonder what they will do if they ever get laid off or get sick for an extended period of time.


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## Tobster

Everyone knows unemployment benefits will be extended, right? Does anyone here doubt that?

Politicians in Washington will rush at break neck speed and knock down anyone in their way to vote for an extension. Afterwards, campfire, marshmallows and Kumbaya.

Once you give it for two years, there is no difference between 99 weeks and 150 weeks, or 150 and 300 weeks. It is here to stay.


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## fordy

.............There are truck driving jobs all over TX , I.e. , driving a saltwater disposal truck pays ~15 to 20 per hour . Normally you work 12 hour shifts , 6 days a week . It is not hard work , just dragout rubber hose , hookup to tanks , draw down fluid , when truck is full haul fluid to injection well , empty tank and start over . These jobs pay from 40,000 to over 100,000 a year depending on the norms based on geographic location . , fordy


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## Wanda

Again how many jobs are there. If 1000 people were to arrive in the N Dakota oil fields today would they all find work? What about the next days thousand? Flip and pat answers make it sound like there are a handful of layabouts waiting for a $25 an hour job.There are huge amounts of people looking for work. The ones that are taking a lot of the part time jobs here are 65 and older trying to keep there heads above water. If you are on SS you will never show up as unemployed.


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## Ernie

Another thing ...

I have certain environmental and Christian values.

Am I supposed to accept work helping to destroy the planet and go against those values?

Pumping saltwater into the same ground from which people draw their drinking water? Poisoning the earth? Really? That's supposed to be an admirable thing?

There's always a job out there with more money. The pursuit of that money will lead you into soul-destroying paths.

I get by just fine on my small income and I get to live a life I always dreamed of, with my family, even if it is harder than the previous life in which I had tons of money.

And I don't have my days filled with little moral and ethical decisions where I keep coming into conflict with my faith.


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## Ernie

This thread has really frustrated me.

Not because of the lack of sympathy expressed by some of you ... I expect that.

But here we see the complete failure of the system and so many people cluelessly fail to recognize it's failure. The old paradigm of get a job, pay your mortgage, work until you retire is DEAD.

Instead of recognizing its failure and discussing how to build a new economy, all we hear are suggestions to go and try to find work in the last little vestiges of our functional economy ... which involve helping to rape the land of its resources which will then be sent overseas to fuel the economic boom of other countries (which now have your job).

Wanda has it right. Go seek those jobs and some of you may get by for a little while longer, but when those jobs are done and you're stuck in North Dakota, those of us who dug in, planted gardens, and found our places in the small economy will be thriving while YOU are dying.


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## Browncoat

My boss was telling me yesterday of a consequence of the extended unemployment benefits I hadn't thought of. Her tax rate to pay for unemployment benefits had gone up pretty significantly, to help continue supporting those on unemployment. I don't claim to understand it all, but we're a very small business, and every penny counts, so she's very upset. 

Now, for the practical stuff. I think we try to help others are most homesteader-types always do, by trying to tell/teach people to live simply and more frugally. Let's face it, most people today don't understand the concept of paring down expenses. It's just become a part of the culture, and they may not see another way of doing things without some help. I've tried to tell some of my friends how to cook from scratch with cheap, basic ingredients, how to do laundry without a washing machine, and how to entertain themselves without expensive phones/computers/TVs. The problem so far has been that very few people want to learn any of it because they haven't had to, and many of them look down on me for trying to live simply and without all the gadgets and expenses. Now, however, they may be more willing to learn or at least think about it if their benefits are cut. 

This may be a perfect opportunity to teach others what we know, if they are willing to learn. I think we have to be patient and understanding if someone asks for help, and not condescending, telling them they should have been doing "X" all along. Some day, we may be the ones needing help. We can help with preparing a budget if they don't know how, teaching them how to do things themselves that they'd usually pay for, and offer cheaper alternatives to the more costly things they're used to. Most of all, I think we need to pray for those who are going to be horribly shocked at the loss of these benefits. They need to know that they're not worthless or less of a person because they're aren't "bringing in" as much money as before.


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## paradox

Ernie said:


> This thread has really frustrated me.
> 
> Not because of the lack of sympathy expressed by some of you ... I expect that.
> 
> But here we see the complete failure of the system and so many people cluelessly fail to recognize it's failure. The old paradigm of get a job, pay your mortgage, work until you retire is DEAD.
> 
> Instead of recognizing its failure and discussing how to build a new economy, all we hear are suggestions to go and try to find work in the last little vestiges of our functional economy ... which involve helping to rape the land of its resources which will then be sent overseas to fuel the economic boom of other countries (which now have your job).
> 
> Wanda has it right. Go seek those jobs and some of you may get by for a little while longer, but when those jobs are done and you're stuck in North Dakota, those of us who dug in, planted gardens, and found our places in the small economy will be thriving while YOU are dying.


You chimed in several times to poo poo other peoples ideas or suggestions but I have yet to see what your ideas are. What do you think people can or should do when they hit that wall? What new economy do you envision us building?


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## Ernie

paradox said:


> You chimed in several times to poo poo other peoples ideas or suggestions but I have yet to see what your ideas are. What do you think people can or should do when they hit that wall? What new economy do you envision us building?


Buddy, because I haven't shared that much in this thread don't mean much. I've expressed my vision in Youtube videos, every day on Facebook, and most every day in some thread or the other.

I'll sum it up for you since you clearly haven't heard me before ...

Pare down, learn to produce something that is desirable (food, a craft, some artisan product, etc.), and turn your life away from gadgets, toys, and creature comforts and seek the pleasure that is to be found in a simple life shared with family.

What you are seeing outside your door is the FAILURE of the American corporate-industrial system and all the misery that is going to entail!

I don't look for solutions in the ruins of previous failures. New ideas are what is called for.


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## Veronica

Unfortunately, the days of working at the same job and then retiring with a decent pension are pretty much gone. Now I see young people trying to get by with two part time jobs or getting a full time job only to be let go right before the benefits kick in. Or working a professional job with no benefits or benefits so expensive it is not really worth it. I think ultimately the best thing to do is cut back as much as possible, work in North Dakota or wherever for a time, get as much money as you can to pay off debt, get rid of a mortgage, build up savings, or whatever, and learn to fend for yourself. Start your own business so you can pay basic bills, grow a garden, and learn how to make do. 
Do what you gotta do to make ends meet, but ultimately learn to make your own way, without depending on a company or boss's whim.


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## bowdonkey

When I got out of the military in the mid 70's, I was just in time for the boom in Wyoming. Chased the big dollars. Had too put up with alcoholics and drug addicts for coworkers and employers. Things got very high priced. I lived in a tent for the summer I was there. $10 a night. I'm glad I had trapping to fall back on. I made much better money than home, but overall it was just a living. I vowed, never again, everyone was after your money including the police. It was worse than the military or the few times I have been in jail. Nope, you can keep the boomtowns. I would gladly take 99 weeks of unemployment over that if I was young and single again. Older and with children (I started late) it's out of the question.


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## paradox

Ernie said:


> Buddy, because I haven't shared that much in this thread don't mean much. I've expressed my vision in Youtube videos, every day on Facebook, and most every day in some thread or the other.
> 
> I'll sum it up for you since you clearly haven't heard me before ...
> 
> Pare down, learn to produce something that is desirable (food, a craft, some artisan product, etc.), and turn your life away from gadgets, toys, and creature comforts and seek the pleasure that is to be found in a simple life shared with family.
> 
> What you are seeing outside your door is the FAILURE of the American corporate-industrial system and all the misery that is going to entail!
> 
> I don't look for solutions in the ruins of previous failures. New ideas are what is called for.



Awesome - we have found some very common ground then. When folks are claiming money troubles my mantra is always "pare down". Only I express it as learning the difference between wants and needs. 

The place we part ways probably just stems from my belief that most of today's Americans don't have the ability or even the desire to fend for themselves. Most of my relatives have no clue how to take care of themselves when the electricity is out for a few hours, much less something more extreme. They could not hunt and dress wild game if their life depended on it - literally. It took a few generations for families to quit producing any of their food or usable goods (clothes, tools, etc) and I am sure it would take a few generations to get back to that. I don't seek a complete "switch off" of modern society, just for people to find a better balance between caring for themselves vs relying on a store or someone else for everything they need to survive.

No insult was meant by that last post - I really just wanted to know what your idea or solution was and had not seen it in this thread. Hope I didn't offend.


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## logbuilder

In many agricultural states, farmers struggle to staff for harvest. Folks take risks and cross the border illegally for relatively low paying jobs. Farmers rely on this.

Look at the hospitality industry. In many locations the cleaning and food preparation staffs are largely illegals.

To me, it really begs the question, if so many jobs are available and many US citizens need jobs, why would are so many illegals getting those jobs? 

Do illegals have more motivation? Are they more skilled at these jobs? Are they less adverse to hard work? Are they more willing to work for less? Are they more willing to travel for work? Is unemployment less of an option for them?

If two men, one a US citizen and one from Mexico, both loose their jobs at the same time. Both are equally motivated to support their families. The US citizen can rely on the govt supporting them for many weeks or months. The Mexican can expect nothing from his govt. Which of these men would you expect to have a job first?


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## Ernie

You did, but I'll get over it. 

I don't buy into the notion that a man, born helpless and untrained, is carved in stone. Just because the necessity was never there to fend for himself doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability to learn. 

That's one of the reasons I've put my life on such display. If *I* can do it, ANYONE can do it. 

I may have grown up in the country, but I was taught the mantra of the 70's and 80's ... "Go to school and get good grades so you can get a good job and won't have to be a farmer." So there was a serious neglect of those country skills in my education.

Nobody ever took into consideration that the simple living MIGHT be desirable to a certain type of man.

I used to make in a month what I don't make now in a year, but I was MISERABLE. I hated every bit of it. Forerunner could tell you about how unhappy I was back then. Now, I get so tickled just going about my simple day.

My name is on some of the biggest IT projects in the past decade, but you know what I'm the most proud of out of all the work I've ever done?

The fact that so many people gave their loved ones knives that I made this Christmas. People trusted my craftsmanship enough to let me make gifts for their husbands, sons, and close friends. And they PAID ME for it.

That is a life I can be proud of and hang my hat on. THAT'S what I am encouraging other people to go out and find for themselves.


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## paradox

Ernie said:


> You did, but I'll get over it.
> 
> I don't buy into the notion that a man, born helpless and untrained, is carved in stone. Just because the necessity was never there to fend for himself doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability to learn.
> 
> That's one of the reasons I've put my life on such display. If *I* can do it, ANYONE can do it.
> 
> I may have grown up in the country, but I was taught the mantra of the 70's and 80's ... "Go to school and get good grades so you can get a good job and won't have to be a farmer." So there was a serious neglect of those country skills in my education.
> 
> Nobody ever took into consideration that the simple living MIGHT be desirable to a certain type of man.
> 
> I used to make in a month what I don't make now in a year, but I was MISERABLE. I hated every bit of it. Forerunner could tell you about how unhappy I was back then. Now, I get so tickled just going about my simple day.
> 
> My name is on some of the biggest IT projects in the past decade, but you know what I'm the most proud of out of all the work I've ever done?
> 
> The fact that so many people gave their loved ones knives that I made this Christmas. People trusted my craftsmanship enough to let me make gifts for their husbands, sons, and close friends. And they PAID ME for it.
> 
> That is a life I can be proud of and hang my hat on. THAT'S what I am encouraging other people to go out and find for themselves.


Well I do truly apologize. I honestly didn't mean for that to sound insulting, just meant to ask the question. I have great respect for what you have done and I think it is wonderful that you love it. I could see myself getting there some day. I am happiest when I am out feeding my chickens or rabbits and working on farm stuff with DH. There are many folk who do get quite a bit of pleasure from that sort of thing.

But at the same time I know an awful lot of folks who would loathe it beyond all measure. Which is why I cannot see this as an answer for everyone. You would be forcing a lot of people into a lifestyle they would hate. So it is great if they can kick into survival mode under necessity, but I doubt the majority enjoy living off the land enough to stay in that circumstance permanently. I would not trade my days of living like we were camping because it made me stronger for trials that came later. I value what I learned in that time. But I would not voluntarily go back to living like that again. I continue to look for a balance of old ways and new...


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## Veronica

logbuilder said:


> In many agricultural states, farmers struggle to staff for harvest. Folks take risks and cross the border illegally for relatively low paying jobs. Farmers rely on this.
> 
> Look at the hospitality industry. In many locations the cleaning and food preparation staffs are largely illegals.
> 
> To me, it really begs the question, if so many jobs are available and many US citizens need jobs, why would are so many illegals getting those jobs?
> 
> Do illegals have more motivation? Are they more skilled at these jobs? Are they less adverse to hard work? Are they more willing to work for less? Are they more willing to travel for work? Is unemployment less of an option for them?
> 
> If two men, one a US citizen and one from Mexico, both loose their jobs at the same time. Both are equally motivated to support their families. The US citizen can rely on the govt supporting them for many weeks or months. The Mexican can expect nothing from his govt. Which of these men would you expect to have a job first?


Unfortunately, I'm not so sure it is as simple as that. When my son worked on a farm one summer, he was the only English speaker and only legal worker there. He learned better Spanish , which was great. But he was more expensive to employ since his employer had to pay taxes on him. The employer didn't have to pay any tax for the illegal workers. Made more sense for the employer to keep the illegals and not hire any more US workers.


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## chickenista

I am thrilled that DS (11) is already thinking this way.
His deep love appears to be blacksmithing.
He was told by the guys at the regional meeting of the national group that he has inborn talent for this art. He curled that piece of iron right over into a beautiful curve.

So we are on the hunt for pieces parts to he can cobble together a smithy.

He has never wanted to work for anyone else, has always wanted to work for himself.
Though he wants an engineering degree, which is good.

And even he knows that metalwork is a necessary thing.. either for the rich to play with now or for the needs be if TSHTF.

I am hoping that he can set himself up now to never have a fall.
That would be cool.


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## AngieM2

paradox, Ernie has changed. You would have had to be here a few years ago when he was still caught in the corporate loop to understand.

He's warned people about this, and many called him everything but brother in response.

Most are watching this more basic Happier Ernie emerge. And he is sharing much information that his distractors could have torn into him with, but he's earning even their respect but showing the determination to get thru the pitfalls and learning curve.

I've really have not thought of the moving to oil fields being the advice given, I was thinking more along the lines of how to exist pretty much near where you live now with the people assets available. But the moving is a way to do it too.

I keep thinking of the smaller houses, and the porches and windows designed for old South wind through the house arangement before air conditioners were not so available.

I'm seeing lots of corporate thinking postings, but there is a balance of many posts of non-corporate thinking survival posts.


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## mnn2501

chickenista said:


> And it is great that you know of people who can move, truly. Great news for them.
> They must have still had a car to drive there and gas money to put into it and enough money for housing when they got there.
> Fantastic.


The key would be to realize you're going to have to do something else before you have lost everything. Some people cling to their hope for too long.


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## mnn2501

bowdonkey said:


> When I got out of the military in the mid 70's, I was just in time for the boom in Wyoming. Chased the big dollars. Had too put up with alcoholics and drug addicts for coworkers and employers. Things got very high priced. I lived in a tent for the summer I was there. $10 a night. I'm glad I had trapping to fall back on. I made much better money than home, but overall it was just a living. I vowed, never again, everyone was after your money including the police. It was worse than the military or the few times I have been in jail. Nope, you can keep the boomtowns. I would gladly take 99 weeks of unemployment over that if I was young and single again. Older and with children (I started late) it's out of the question.


No ones talking boom towns. Dallas certainly is not a boom town (perhaps 100 years ago, but not in my lifetime)


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## where I want to

One thing that is not for everyone but is frankly what a lot of immigrants do, is to start their own business. I did that for awhile when jobs were just as hard to come by as now. It was not great money but I got by offering a service that other people didn't want to do for themselves. 
When I hired a house painter to do my out buildings, that is what he told me- he always had work because people simply did not like to paint.
Right now it is very difficult to find a reliable person to do almost anything from fencing through small building project. You can find lots of businesses for major work but they are not interested in your diddly little jobs.


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## mpillow

We dont start our own business as business ins. is $1500....and truly my husband is not cut out for it.....its important to know your limits!

And honestly the foodstamp/TANF/education/cellphone/heat/free healthcare is the route to go. It pays better than UC if you have children especially. 

I have issues with that also.


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## Guest

Wanda said:


> Again how many jobs are there. If 1000 people were to arrive in the N Dakota oil fields today would they all find work? What about the next days thousand? Flip and pat answers make it sound like there are a handful of layabouts waiting for a $25 an hour job.There are huge amounts of people looking for work. The ones that are taking a lot of the part time jobs here are 65 and older trying to keep there heads above water. If you are on SS you will never show up as unemployed.



I don't know how many jobs are there..My father would of been SOL had he lost his land so he had to find something...although in my view he should of been mortgage free AND living within his means by this age as my brother whom is just a spend drift and got in way over his head with buying whatever he felt like..

In my father and brothers case they are both the "wanted" people where they are in North Dakota..because they both are "experts" in driving heavy equipment along with driving 18-wheelers and my brother is a self taught mechanic and a good one at that! So I don't think just anyone would be hired..so maybe that is the answer to your question.

My father owned his own Well drilling & Excavation business for many years in the eighties when there was more work then my Dad could keep up with..this is where my brother and my dad got their experience from. 


Btw..this idea to look for work in North Dakota all started from my father watching Larry The Cable Guy talking about how badly they needed Oil Field workers..Lol..


----------



## Guest

mpillow said:


> We dont start our own business as business ins. is $1500....and truly my husband is not cut out for it.....its important to know your limits!
> 
> And honestly the foodstamp/TANF/education/cellphone/heat/free healthcare is the route to go. It pays better than UC if you have children especially.
> 
> I have issues with that also.



Sad isn't it?


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## TripleD

My grand dad was a share cropper when he was young. During the depression he went to Florida to work in the orange groves. He came back to the Carolinas and started his own business. It worked well for about 10yrs until his drunk brother started telling the wrong people about their still.


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## Ernie

Thanks, Angie. 

Paradox, I'm not really offended. Just annoyed that so much of my message is lost! Not just on you, but apparently the internet has a short memory.

I just keep trying to pound home that THIS is the SHTF you've all been waiting for, but not the one you expect.

The people who are on the 99 weeks have a number tied to their last day of income from the system ... but those who are employed _don't. 

_That's something to think about. Your 99 weeks could start tomorrow and you'll never see it coming.


----------



## bowdonkey

mnn2501 said:


> No ones talking boom towns. Dallas certainly is not a boom town (perhaps 100 years ago, but not in my lifetime)


I consider the area in western ND a boomtown. Thread drift, tough to follow sometimes.


----------



## Veronica

Ernie said:


> Thanks, Angie.
> 
> Paradox, I'm not really offended. Just annoyed that so much of my message is lost! Not just on you, but apparently the internet has a short memory.
> 
> *I just keep trying to pound home that THIS is the SHTF you've all been waiting for, but not the one you expect.*
> 
> The people who are on the 99 weeks have a number tied to their last day of income from the system ... but those who are employed _don't.
> 
> _That's something to think about. Your 99 weeks could start tomorrow and you'll never see it coming.


Re the bolded - yes. It's something I never quite thought about until I read this yesterday. Our household experienced 3 layoffs since 2007 which we had never had happen before. It has significantly changed our life in many ways. And I know that most of our neighbors have also had big changes during this time as well. Tough times.


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## elkhound

the industrial revolution started about 1840's.....the way we live now is basically only been since end of ww2 but really only since 1970's...the rest of time on this planet has been mostly peasant lifestyles.do yall see what a blip on the radar as far as humans on this earth really is.

call it whatever ya wanna call it peak oil,peak production.inflation,hyperinflation or whatever you need to use to float ya boat...but it all is effecting us ..be it manmade or real its effecting us....gasoline was 1.17 in 2005 the day katrina hit....peice per barrel was low 50's....2007 corn here was 7.95 a 100# the list goes on and on...its all 2 to 3x the price now. thats 200% or 300% increase in price....has you wages went up that much? everyone can have an opinion on why this is be in printing money out of thin air...price gougeing from corps. etc etc. i think its a combination of everything from coruption to greed to priting money to less resources that are cheap.

we are living in rome right now...its falling apart....its not a overnight thing...i seen a report other day said over half the population makes less than $30,000 a year now.

wait till these baby boomers start selling off stocks and bonds and drawing off money from 401k's and SS they have been pouring money into it since 1970....theres going to be a swishing air sound like no other.

go and do whatever you need to do get a bit of land and a roof over your head...get it paid off fast..or sell off your current place if its unsustainable and get a lesser place that is debt free and get ready for whats coming ...and it is coming...may we all choose wisely...our lives and lives of our future family may depend on it.


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## logbuilder

Just ran across this and thought it was interesting.

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/capitolreport/2014/01/08/what-happens-when-jobless-benefits-are-cut-north-carolina-may-offer-clues/

Last summer, North Carolina slashed the amount of cash it gave to people after they lost their jobs and the state also reduced the number of weeks they could receive benefits. Within several months, the unemployment rate fell a few ticks and by November it fell to a five-year low.
Similar though less dramatic declines occurred in Georgia and South Carolina after they made benefits less generous starting in 2012.


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## Wanda

logbuilder said:


> Just ran across this and thought it was interesting.
> 
> http://blogs.marketwatch.com/capitolreport/2014/01/08/what-happens-when-jobless-benefits-are-cut-north-carolina-may-offer-clues/
> 
> Last summer, North Carolina slashed the amount of cash it gave to people after they lost their jobs and the state also reduced the number of weeks they could receive benefits. Within several months, the unemployment rate fell a few ticks and by November it fell to a five-year low.
> Similar though less dramatic declines occurred in Georgia and South Carolina after they made benefits less generous starting in 2012.






Read the last paragraph of your posted article. They have no clue what happened to the people that went off of the roles. There is a vast difference in not drawing unemployment and being employed. Just quit tracking it and you will have a rate of zero.


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## logbuilder

Wanda said:


> Read the last paragraph of your posted article. They have no clue what happened to the people that went off of the roles. There is a vast difference in not drawing unemployment and being employed. Just quit tracking it and you will have a rate of zero.


Thanks for reading it. Surely it does not have all the answers but it seemed very relative to the OP.

Here is another one I ran up on that also applied to the OP. It talks about specific people's unemployment situations and a rising number of disability claims. I found it pretty comprehensive on the subject and learned a lot.

http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/


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## farmerj

as a side not to "loosing your job" and moving to get a new occupation....

This last little weather spurt is a nice personal "SHTF sitation" that is impacting a lot of people.

I have been sitting here wondering what would I have done last weekend with arctic frigid temps bearing done on us at the same time we are sitting there enjoying +20*F or warmer temps with a RAIN STORM hitting us just before the temps went to -25*F in less than 6 hours? Especially considering the power lines are ABOVE ground....

There are many things in life that are current and existing SHTF scenarios and there is no way that anyone can prepare and plan for each and every circumstance.

All you can do is accept that the will, not if, happen sooner or later and make the best of a given situation.

Even if that means a temporary separation from family.


----------



## chickenista

Wanda said:


> Read the last paragraph of your posted article. They have no clue what happened to the people that went off of the roles. There is a vast difference in not drawing unemployment and being employed. Just quit tracking it and you will have a rate of zero.


 
THIS!!!!!!
YES!!

The unemployment rate did not 'drop' in NC, as in 'Look at all these great jobs we have now!! Woot!'.

The rate dropped because they just wiped the people off of the role.
Looks great on paper though.
They will dress this up with bows and bells and you will start hearing it on a national level.
Be prepared.
It's bullhockey.

The national unemployment numbers won't 'get better', they are just erasing people.
The jobless rate will grow, but the numbers will not be evident. It will be a case of cancelling each other out.


----------



## Aintlifegrand

Wanda said:


> Again how many jobs are there. If 1000 people were to arrive in the N Dakota oil fields today would they all find work? What about the next days thousand? Flip and pat answers make it sound like there are a handful of layabouts waiting for a $25 an hour job.There are huge amounts of people looking for work. The ones that are taking a lot of the part time jobs here are 65 and older trying to keep there heads above water. If you are on SS you will never show up as unemployed.


First off North Dakota is not the only place where oilfield jobs are..secondly..anyplace that has jobs creates other jobs..so no all 1000 people would not get oilfield job..some might end up working in the construction boom..entertainment..healthcare...any numbers of jobs in those areas that are growing..the point is to move to regions or areas of growth..or stay in place and make your homesteading work for you..just do something either way because you have to move forward...stagnation will devastate you.


----------



## Wanda

Aintlifegrand said:


> First off North Dakota is not the only place where oilfield jobs are..secondly..anyplace that has jobs creates other jobs..so no all 1000 people would not get oilfield job..some might end up working in the construction boom..entertainment..healthcare...any numbers of jobs in those areas that are growing..the point is to move to regions or areas of growth..or stay in place and make your homesteading work for you..just do something either way because you have to move forward...stagnation will devastate you.



I realise that there are more jobs in the oilfield. Do you realise my 1000 people a day are just a drop in the bucket? The amount of people in the area can not outgrow the infrastructure by much. I doubt there has been much primitive camping going on for the last couple of weeks. By word of mouth to an available job will let you plan. Showing up with high hopes will get you in serious trouble this time of year!


----------



## Ernie

Wanda said:


> I realise that there are more jobs in the oilfield. Do you realise my 1000 people a day are just a drop in the bucket? The amount of people in the area can not outgrow the infrastructure by much. I doubt there has been much primitive camping going on for the last couple of weeks. By word of mouth to an available job will let you plan. Showing up with high hopes will get you in serious trouble this time of year!


There's an oil boom in Midland-Odessa right now. 

My area, several hours east of there, is being flooded with "refugees" from Midland-Odessa who can no longer afford to survive there. Rent has quadrupled in most places and gasoline is supposedly twice the cost of anywhere else.

So I wonder how the people who were doing fine in North Dakota like the oil boom that's happening there.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Ernie said:


> There's an oil boom in Midland-Odessa right now.
> 
> My area, several hours east of there, is being flooded with "refugees" from Midland-Odessa who can no longer afford to survive there. Rent has quadrupled in most places and gasoline is supposedly twice the cost of anywhere else.
> 
> So I wonder how the people who were doing fine in North Dakota like the oil boom that's happening there.


Focus is where boom towns and folks get messed up . These aren't places to move the whole house hold to :hammer: Also if one is already in debt up to their eyeballs and refuse to downsize there in little hope . If one insist on keeping new trucks or what ever with lots of years of payments ,there is little hope where ever they are too :hammer:

When I went the wife stayed home she pretty well closed off all the house but two rooms .Out there in Co. we lived like hermits and worked every hour we could ,spent little as we could . Then took the money to get a head on thus i could slow down working the sawmill and then just quit all together about two or three years early . But some say i never really started .By quit i mean chasing money for 30 years house payments or a fine auto . 

Lots of people have no plan they spend money way to many years in the future while living like a King today on the payment plan . There are just some that are allergic to money any way you go too :thumb:


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## Glade Runner

Interesting thread but I've been somewhat reluctant to comment. I do believe that extended unemployment benefits extends unemployment and almost all studies show that. Personally my philosophy has always been you do what you have to do including moving and taking a less than desirable job if necessary and I've never taken one dime of unemployment because of it. It may be true that there's only one job available for every three people that want a job but guess what, that means there are jobs available and people aren't filling them so if you really want a job then go get one. 

I have always believed everyone has a right to make their own decisions on things like this and if many choose to stew in their own juice which seems to be the case then that's fine. People certainly seem to be able to come up with a lot of reasons for not doing anything. I just don't want to hear them moaning about their situation or expecting me to shell out to help them.


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## sidepasser

So the government extends unemployment another 99 weeks..what happens after that? Another extension? How long are benefits extended before folks are transitioned over to the welfare?

Oh and like another poster, I have lived the lifestyle of "camping out" on my farm, did it for a long time while building and I also have no desire to return to the time of no heat, electric, phone, septic or running water. Some people don't mind, but it gets old after about the 2nd year and one starts to think about perhaps indoor plumbing, maybe a little heat would be good and perhaps some windows in the house. After the fifth year one starts to think about a fan when the temps are 100 degrees out and the kids are fussing because they can't sleep. Eventually one adds those things that take one beyond "survival" and into "living with some comfortable options".

Having lived it, I am at the age where I still want to grow my own food, raise my own meat - but I do not want to sleep on the ground, or in an unheated house or trek out to the outhouse when it's 20 degrees out. I applaud those that do want to live that way and am glad they have the fortitude to choose to live that way. I chose to do that when I was younger, it's not such a great choice in your mid-fifties.


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## plowhand

All I know, is that in my little part of NC, plants/businesses are still closing,whole families are going on disability, and according to local sources.....about 85% of households get a gub'mint check of some sort every month! Sounds real prosperous...don't it.
About the only jobs for folks are nuclear shut down work, and one paper plant in the next county.....jobs that pay well/ridiculous....and if you ain't got somebody to watch over your property....it'll take what you make to replace the stuff that's stolen when your gone to work! Real prosperity
Oh yeah forgot the new prison, along with old...tells about a nation when folks are excited that a new maximum security prison is coming to town...and every so often a guard loses his/her job due to affairs with prisoners, and bringing in drugs ect.


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## Wanda

I have thought about this for a couple of days and I have a question. Does the unemployment offices in most states keep a list of available jobs for applicants to check on? The other is if there are all of these unfilled jobs around the country' why doesn't some one set up a simple website to them and make a fortune selling the data? I am beginning to think some of these jobs are like ''mountain lion'' sightings. Every one thinks they are all over but very few can find a real one.:shrug:


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## mpillow

LOL Maine has its "job bank" thru the career center that is the worst job search engine EVER!
Every 6 weeks DH had to attend a workshop at the career center to work on your resume...etc. It was a waste of 4 hrs and gas money.


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## MO_cows

Wanda said:


> I have thought about this for a couple of days and I have a question. Does the unemployment offices in most states keep a list of available jobs for applicants to check on? The other is if there are all of these unfilled jobs around the country' why doesn't some one set up a simple website to them and make a fortune selling the data? I am beginning to think some of these jobs are like ''mountain lion'' sightings. Every one thinks they are all over but very few can find a real one.:shrug:


I would bet all the states have a "job bank" of some sort. I have browsed Missouri and Kansas, they were nothing to write home about. As far as a website for jobs all over the country, there is monster.com and others. Somebody already thought of that! It might work better for a medium to large city, but we never found anything listed at monster that was within a reasonable driving distance. Even when you search by zip code, it pulls in job listings halfway across the state! 

A lot of jobs still get filled the old fashioned way - by referral. The old "it's not what you know, it's who you know" system is alive and well.


----------



## mpillow

MO_cows said:


> I would bet all the states have a "job bank" of some sort. I have browsed Missouri and Kansas, they were nothing to write home about. As far as a website for jobs all over the country, there is monster.com and others. Somebody already thought of that! It might work better for a medium to large city, but we never found anything listed at monster that was within a reasonable driving distance. Even when you search by zip code, it pulls in job listings halfway across the state!
> 
> A lot of jobs still get filled the old fashioned way - by referral. The old "it's not what you know, it's who you know" system is alive and well.


and private companies always do better than the gooberment!


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## farmerj

I'll have to dig around for it. Couple months back there was a white paper out on how job sites like monster and jobdig actually was hurting hr and people from find good people to fill jobs.

How could you have 12500+ applicants and not one of them was hired for the position.

HR people basically trying to let the computers match the job to a person. And since not every skill was matched, no one was even interviewed.


----------



## sidepasser

Many companies have their own career section, and one would go to the company website and look there. My company currently has 77 open jobs - from co-op and internships, manufacturing (floor) jobs, design development, software development, research engineer, HR functions, quality positions, and other positions. 

If you go to most company websites they will have a career center and when you search through the jobs, it will give you description and location of the job if the co. has multiple sites.

Linkedin.com - very good way to get referrals to jobs, find a job, network and learn where the jobs are. 

Even facebook has job listings on some pages. Craigslist is now used by a lot of smaller companies to hire people for some pretty good jobs (paralegals, legal secretary, executive assistant, web developers are just a few).

Most companies do not use the local "newpaper" ads anymore, it is too expensive when they can post on Careerbuilder.com or Craigslist (free). Other job resources are: jobsusa.com (federal employment); al.com for alabama employment.

One needs to be a bit like a terrier in ferreting out a job that will both pay and provide benefits.


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## unregistered5595

farmerj said:


> I'll have to dig around for it. Couple months back there was a white paper out on how job sites like monster and jobdig actually was hurting hr and people from find good people to fill jobs.
> 
> How could you have 12500+ applicants and not one of them was hired for the position.
> 
> HR people basically trying to let the computers match the job to a person. And since not every skill was matched, no one was even interviewed.


Yes.
A couple years ago, I printed out my resume and wrote a particular cover letter for it, printed, signed, mailed. The HR person called and said they hadn't seen a written resume in years and commended me on sending it and they were considering it. They mentioned they enjoyed holding it in their hands as though they hadn't held a piece of paper in years. Why this made me laugh, I don't know exactly. I was imagining the HR person sitting in an office, perfectly cleaned desk, a computer, no papers, and having no clue on what to do with this resume paper. Would they start a filing system for paper or just scan it in so it would be like all the other electronic resumes? I imagine they framed it and it is now on the wall in the HR office. I can dream.


----------



## where I want to

People need to ask people who have jobs to find out what works. There are occasional serendipity stories but most will be examples of people making their own luck. 
My favorite one is a man who is blind- not just legally blind but totally blind. He decided that not working was boring and unhealthy. But getting someone to hire him was impossible. So he volunteered at a place he thought was a good fit for him. He went into "work" for 6 months just as if he was getting paid. By the time an opening came up, the employer knew him, knew what he could do, had figured out how the job could be restructed to his needs and knew he would be getting a productive worker who was reliable, having been so when he didn't get paid.
Most people never have to go that far but willingness goes a long way to being in the right place at the right time. The dog that gets the rabbit is always on the move looking for it.


----------



## Tiempo

Ernie said:


> Thanks, Angie.
> 
> Paradox, I'm not really offended. Just annoyed that so much of my message is lost! Not just on you, but apparently the internet has a short memory.
> 
> I just keep trying to pound home that THIS is the SHTF you've all been waiting for, but not the one you expect.
> 
> The people who are on the 99 weeks have a number tied to their last day of income from the system ... but those who are employed _don't.
> 
> _That's something to think about. Your 99 weeks could start tomorrow and you'll never see it coming.


The problem is Ernie, and I offer this as an observation, I hope doesn't come across as an attack because I really don't intend it to be... but your situation is just as tenuous, if not more so. I only bring this up in the spirit of recognizing holes which is what survival and emergency prep is all about and I hope it's taken as such.

You have no food stores put up, your rabbits are gone, your bees are gone, your goats are under performing your gardens only sustain you and your family while they are actively growing. You have no money put away, no insurance in all aspects of the word.

In your situation a SHTF scenario is a wren's breath away and could come down to something as imaginable as (goodness forbid), a slip of a power tool rendering a hand useless, a drought, a storm, a loss of the internet which would kill your sales completely.

I ask not in a spirit of unkindness, but how are you really prepared?


----------



## WV Farm girl

Tiempo. You are correct. All that we have, all that we are, can be gone in a moment. How are any of us Really prepared? Only by the grace of God.


----------



## snowcap

What Ernie has, that alot of people don't have any more is knowledge, determination, and a survival skills.
Some times that's way better than a bucket of beans.


----------



## Tiempo

WV Farm girl said:


> Tiempo. You are correct. All that we have, all that we are, can be gone in a moment. How are any of us Really prepared? Only by the grace of God.


We do what we can, but I'd like to see Ernie and his family at the very least have a few month's food put up.


----------



## Ernie

Tiempo said:


> We do what we can, but I'd like to see Ernie and his family at the very least have a few month's food put up.


My my.

Well, first off you don't know what we do or don't have put aside, nor what we are willing to eat in order to get by. We've got plenty of food, and I dare say I'll be fat and happy when a lot of people's vast food hoards are completely gone.

But second of all ... these aren't things I worry about. Literally no worry. We get by each and every day. Nobody has ever went hungry around here. God provides. 

I guess if I thought like you do then I'd be busy every day, squirreling up nuts for winter. How would I ever know when is enough? A week's worth? A month's worth? A year? I'd work my fingers to the bone gnawing them in worry and fear.

I find that a simply hilarious point of view to have. Food is there for me every day. It may not always be my favorite, but it's always there. 

It must suck to someone who spends hours and hours and thousands of dollars "preparing" for an uncertain future when I simply just sit here and watch as God provides a bounty. A surplus even!

*Your father knows what you need before you ask him. Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? So do not worry, saying, "What shall we eat?" or "What shall we wear?" For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Today's trouble is enough for today. (Matthew 6:8b,25,31-34)*

And it's so true! I know that now! God has provided us with so much and there's the constancy of the promise that tomorrow's needs will be met as well.

Hehehe. Gah. I'm so pleased that I don't have to depend upon my own strengths and doings. That would be terrifying.


----------



## elkhound

theres no dought in my mind Ernie has caches of supplies that are in many many forms,shapes and sizes and unrecognizable to most folks.


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## Ernie

elkhound said:


> theres no dought in my mind Ernie has caches of supplies that are in many many forms,shapes and sizes and unrecognizable to most folks.


I think it's hilarious that people think that the man whose family LOVES frying up grasshoppers for dinner would possibly ever starve to death.

That just cracks me up.


----------



## Tiempo

You've stated often that you have next to nothing put by, I was just going off of what you've said :shrug:

I think you may have kind of missed my point that your sitution is barley more secure than many, but ok.

I hope you do continue to be provided for, I really do, but doesn't the Lord also taketh away?


----------



## elkhound

Ernie said:


> I think it's hilarious that people think that the man whose family LOVES frying up grasshoppers for dinner would possibly ever starve to death.
> 
> That just cracks me up.


i see people look at a mature bed of asparagus ferns in summer and say why dont ya cut those wild looking weeds down....lol..often i blink like the deer in headlight stare saying....roflmao....cause those weeds feed me all spring while others are only thinking about growing food.i tell them its asparagus and they say no its not that stuff looks like a short spear....lol....then i try to educate them about the stuff.


----------



## Ernie

Tiempo said:


> I hope you do continue to be provided for, I really do, but doesn't the Lord also taketh away?


Sure!

He took away my transmission for the past week and a half and forced me to go out into my circle of friends and be reliant upon them for rides to and fro. That kind of sucked at first but it turned out to be a very good experience for me and shored up some community ties.

And then, just as God took away, He provided me with all the money I needed to get the transmission fixed. 

God provides big and God provides little but He ALWAYS provides what is needful. And you do have His promises that he's not going to let you starve. He didn't promise, however, that you wouldn't ever have to eat something you didn't like, or that you wouldn't have to tighten up your belt on the occasion. 

Our part is to realize that, in those scenarios, we are also being cared for by our loving Father. It don't always feel like that when you're sitting in the driveway and your vehicle won't start, or you're sitting on the side of the road with a flat tire, but it's absolutely as true in those moments as it is on such a beautiful day as today where absolutely NOTHING went wrong.


----------



## elkhound

Ernie i just started reading a new book called Animal,Vegetable,Miracle:A Year of Food Life.

the first 20 pages in it made me think of you and forerunner and some of the conversation that have been on here the last bit about daily sustenance and lack of cooking skills and how many people dont recognize foods and cant shape there head around how to take whats ripe and use it for a meal right there and then.if you see this book get it.


----------



## mpillow

I liked the book too!


----------



## Ernie

elkhound said:


> Ernie i just started reading a new book called Animal,Vegetable,Miracle:A Year of Food Life.
> 
> the first 20 pages in it made me think of you and forerunner and some of the conversation that have been on here the last bit about daily sustenance and lack of cooking skills and how many people dont recognize foods and cant shape there head around how to take whats ripe and use it for a meal right there and then.if you see this book get it.


I read that book! It wasn't too bad. I laughed at some of their goofiness, but I'm pretty sure they'd laugh at some of mine too. 

I planted asparagus last year and I've been watching these big bushy ferny plants grow out and I keep thinking, "Where's the edible part?" Heh. See? I still got a lot to learn about those things. 

Mostly we're just overrun with wildlife here. Once a week there's a deer kill on my 2 mile long road. Rabbits are all over the place (which makes me feel weird about why I'm bothering to try to raise them). There's fish in our pond (and the ponds of all our neighbors). 

And that's before we ever even get to the plants. 

It'd be harder than anybody knows to ever starve us out. 

I try to lay low and not shoot around here because of some neighbors I have (who like to turn you in for it), but if we hit the hungry time then all bets are off.


----------



## elkhound

many time a garden doesnt have rows and people cant see its a garden too.or they say theres nothing there to eat..i love to walk threw a area and see whats ready TODAY for harvest and use that for my meal.heres a couple walk through picks.






heres a spring time lunch....chickens are pouring out eggs and lettuce is up and rolling so its pickled eggs wrapped in lettuce/kale leaves....spring is always a glut of scrambled eggs and asparagus.


----------



## elkhound

Ernie said:


> I read that book! It wasn't too bad. I laughed at some of their goofiness, but I'm pretty sure they'd laugh at some of mine too.
> 
> I planted asparagus last year and I've been watching these big bushy ferny plants grow out and I keep thinking, "Where's the edible part?" Heh. See? I still got a lot to learn about those things.
> 
> Mostly we're just overrun with wildlife here. Once a week there's a deer kill on my 2 mile long road. Rabbits are all over the place (which makes me feel weird about why I'm bothering to try to raise them). There's fish in our pond (and the ponds of all our neighbors).
> 
> And that's before we ever even get to the plants.
> 
> It'd be harder than anybody knows to ever starve us out.
> 
> I try to lay low and not shoot around here because of some neighbors I have (who like to turn you in for it), but if we hit the hungry time then all bets are off.


right here....but only when its young and not ferned out...its cut and come again for about 8 weeks maximum.


----------



## elkhound

if we was close together i know i would want for us to do a community patch of taters together to share in work,reward and fellowship of such things....several of you in fact.

i might even find a pipe and puff a few drawls with ya at break time during the day....lol


----------



## Tiempo

elkhound said:


> many time a garden doesnt have rows and people cant see its a garden too.or they say theres nothing there to eat..i love to walk threw a area and see whats ready TODAY for harvest and use that for my meal.heres a couple walk through picks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> heres a spring time lunch....chickens are pouring out eggs and lettuce is up and rolling so its pickled eggs wrapped in lettuce/kale leaves....spring is always a glut of scrambled eggs and asparagus.


I like to plant outside of the beds in 'random' places too. The Jerusalem artichokes are at the end of a hedge row..last summer I planted the eggplants in the flower beds as annuals, they looked great there and produced beautifully. 

As for wild things around the place that are good to eat and make drinks from, we have tons of lambs quarters, chickweed, dandelions, wood sorrel, naturalized arugula, burdock, morels in the spring, wild chives and chamomile, black raspberries, wild oregano, staghorn sumac....yum


----------



## elkhound

would you believe the deer killed out my Jerusalem artichokes in 2 seasons....they loved them...lol...and i love backstrap too.


----------



## elkhound

heres an idea for you these daikon radish....they get big and you can take them and shred them on a grater thingy and make a type of coleslaw if you are out of cabbages in winter time. those are white globe turnips on ground.they dont do as well as purple ones.


----------



## biggkidd

Back to the OP. 

There is work if people want it. I have cleaned restrooms to make a few bucks. By just stopping wherever I was at the time and asking. Hey I can clean all this up for whatever you can spare. Sure you get turned down some places but most say ok. 

On another note walk through middle class neighborhoods looking for something that needs doing. Knock on the door and say I noticed your gutters were full I can take care of that for you or cut the grass or .................

Most of the time when I did work of this type I found that they would often call someone else who needed ...... done and then it can get a bit like a snowball. From this person / job on to the next.

Most people are to timid to put it out there but thats what you gotta do. 

Be ready to work RIGHT THEN that is often important. It also helps if you do more than what you agree to. 

Once & a while its good to do a few freebees too. For instance several years ago I stopped on riverside dr. The hedges were high as the gutter on the house. Lady said she would love to have it cut back but she was having tough times too. I said thats ok I would do it anyway. So thats what I did. By the time I was done and loading my truck the neighbor and her son had both shown up. I ended up with a few months work because I cut the ladies hedges.

So the moral is there is work if you WANT it.

It may be something you you have never done and don't want to do but so what do it anyway.

Larry


----------



## Ernie

biggkidd said:


> So the moral is there is work if you WANT it.


Most people have been taught to avoid work by finding a job.


----------



## elkhound

Ernie said:


> Most people have been taught to avoid work by finding a job.




epic !!!!


----------



## unregistered41671

elkhound said:


> many time a garden doesnt have rows and people cant see its a garden too.or they say theres nothing there to eat..i love to walk threw a area and see whats ready TODAY for harvest and use that for my meal.heres a couple walk through picks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> heres a spring time lunch....chickens are pouring out eggs and lettuce is up and rolling so its pickled eggs wrapped in lettuce/kale leaves....spring is always a glut of scrambled eggs and asparagus.


 Elkhound, sure would like to get your pickled egg recipe.


----------



## MO_cows

biggkidd said:


> Back to the OP.
> 
> There is work if people want it. I have cleaned restrooms to make a few bucks. By just stopping wherever I was at the time and asking. Hey I can clean all this up for whatever you can spare. Sure you get turned down some places but most say ok.
> 
> On another note walk through middle class neighborhoods looking for something that needs doing. Knock on the door and say I noticed your gutters were full I can take care of that for you or cut the grass or .................
> 
> Most of the time when I did work of this type I found that they would often call someone else who needed ...... done and then it can get a bit like a snowball. From this person / job on to the next.
> 
> Most people are to timid to put it out there but thats what you gotta do.
> 
> Be ready to work RIGHT THEN that is often important. It also helps if you do more than what you agree to.
> 
> Once & a while its good to do a few freebees too. For instance several years ago I stopped on riverside dr. The hedges were high as the gutter on the house. Lady said she would love to have it cut back but she was having tough times too. I said thats ok I would do it anyway. So thats what I did. By the time I was done and loading my truck the neighbor and her son had both shown up. I ended up with a few months work because I cut the ladies hedges.
> 
> So the moral is there is work if you WANT it.
> 
> It may be something you you have never done and don't want to do but so what do it anyway.
> 
> Larry


Obviously you have a good work ethic and are a self starter. That is admirable.

But the course of action you described simply isn't going to work for everyone. I can just see somebody dressed in work clothes going into a nice neighborhood door to door looking for work and somebody calls the cops on them! And some people just don't have the confidence, they would just stammer and stutter and look at the ground and soon get sent on their way with nothing.


----------



## snowcap

How did they work at a job long enough to get unemployment if they can't even ask for a job? Sorry but that's rediculus.


----------



## Forerunner

Some of you will understand.....

Despair is but one of the high costs of atheism.


----------



## bowdonkey

elkhound said:


> if we was close together i know i would want for us to do a community patch of taters together to share in work,reward and fellowship of such things....several of you in fact.
> 
> i might even find a pipe and puff a few drawls with ya at break time during the day....lol


What are we smokin? Presuming, maybe wrongly, that I was invited.


----------



## Aintlifegrand

Ernie said:


> I think it's hilarious that people think that the man whose family LOVES frying up grasshoppers for dinner would possibly ever starve to death.
> 
> That just cracks me up.


Come visit us in a few months my friend and you will have a buffet of those creatures..of course having lived near where you are in Abilene I know you are in no short supply there either.


----------



## elkhound

Possum Belly said:


> Elkhound, sure would like to get your pickled egg recipe.



i really dont have a recipe...i use what i have at various times to use up resources..like used pickle juices i just drop eggs in when pickles are gone.the ones in picture are just done in beet pickle juice a big dash of pickle spices and add extra vinegar and water to jar one equal amounts of each.if theres a clove of garlic i peel and add it whole at times. sometimes i do them in hot sauce like texas pete .heres place i get best deal on spice for this.only 6.99 for a pound bag...those tiny jars are to high priced from McCormick.

http://spicebarn.com/

http://spicebarn.com/pickling_spice.htm


----------



## Tiempo

Forerunner said:


> Some of you will understand.....
> 
> Despair is but one of the high costs of atheism.


Nope :facepalm:


----------



## Forerunner

Didn't think so.........


:facepalm:


----------



## pookford

susieneddy said:


> Filling out an application online can take anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes. In 1-2 minutes you get a reply back saying you aren't qualified for the job. Well you know that is wrong since you have done that job before.


The speedy 'thanks but no thanks' reply is based on a person's answers to pre-qualification questions that are asked during the application process. For example, a landscaping company might have their online system ask if you are willing to work outdoors. If an applicant answers no, they would be disqualified for the position and an automated email would be sent out by the system.

I've worked for companies that use these online systems and can offer the following advice:


These systems can only 'reject' an application based on the answers to pre-qualification questions like the landscaper example above. They are not set up to reject applicants based on date of birth, gender, etc.
Read the job description, instructions, and all questions on the online application very carefully. If you rush through and misread something, you run the risk of accidentally giving a response that will get your application rejected.
If you get a 'thanks but no thanks' email less than 24 hours after submitting your application, it probably means that the system rejected one of your answers and a human probably hasn't reviewed your application at all.
If you think your application was rejected in error, please do follow up unless the job listing explicitly says, "No calls." The company I work for has had the occasional applicant call and say, "Could you please give my application another look? I've worked in this field for X years and I am well versed in XYZ." Those two little sentences will likely get your application reviewed more carefully and many recruiters/hiring managers appreciate it when people show an active interest by following up.

On a personal note, my husband was laid off in late 2008 and it took him nearly nine months to find a job because all of his work experience was in manufacturing and residential construction (which were both hemorrhaging jobs at the time.) The longer he was laid off, the more prospective employers questioned this 'gap' in his work history. The bigger the gap got, the more critical interviewers were about it. As he learned first hand, prospective employers don't want to see a gap in your work history, even when it's not your fault. Fill that gap up, even if it's with volunteer work or side jobs.


----------



## logbuilder

pookford said:


> On a personal note, my husband was laid off in late 2008 and it took him nearly nine months to find a job because all of his work experience was in manufacturing and residential construction (which were both hemorrhaging jobs at the time.) The longer he was laid off, the more prospective employers questioned this 'gap' in his work history. The bigger the gap got, the more critical interviewers were about it. As he learned first hand, prospective employers don't want to see a gap in your work history, even when it's not your fault. *Fill that gap up, even if it's with volunteer work or side jobs.*


+1 Good advice.


----------



## wes917

logbuilder said:


> +1 Good advice.


When I was laid off in nov 12 I called and enrolled in a class to get tougher certifications in my field. Then I applied at a few places and received an offer bc I realized I needed to expand my abilities. The employer offered me the job bc I took the initiative to do that and I started before I even took the course. 

There's things you can do to make yourself more narketable to companies, you just have to be willing to do them.


----------



## mpillow

Ernie....do you have access to some of those live have a hart type traps? Because you might have a nice quiet method of catching buns.....I've done it to catch the offspring of my "free ranging domestic buns" I also know that some wild rabbits have bred into my loose ones....You can spread the gene pool that way.

I'd find a nice sunny spot this time of year after a cold snap to get some rattlesnake too. I hate snakes but I like to eat! 

And diakon radish....not just for people....the goats love that stuff.....plus it will reseed itself and spread nicely if you leave a couple roots to go to seed.


----------



## Ernie

mpillow said:


> Ernie....do you have access to some of those live have a hart type traps? Because you might have a nice quiet method of catching buns.....I've done it to catch the offspring of my "free ranging domestic buns" I also know that some wild rabbits have bred into my loose ones....You can spread the gene pool that way.
> 
> I'd find a nice sunny spot this time of year after a cold snap to get some rattlesnake too. I hate snakes but I like to eat!
> 
> And diakon radish....not just for people....the goats love that stuff.....plus it will reseed itself and spread nicely if you leave a couple roots to go to seed.


I LOVE daikon radishes. 

We've pushed the bunny population back off of our property, unfortunately and now they're in the woods up in the hills (which is owned by some absentee guy out of Dallas). I can poach there and get rabbits, but setting up a trap system might be a little abusive of it. I don't want the rabbit population to diminish too much.


----------



## unregistered5595

Brown some beef or pork chunks (or rabbit), put them in a slow cooker, add broth or white wine. When it starts to get tender after 4 hours, chunk up and peel those daikon radishes and throw them in, add soy sauce, ginger and star anise and cook another hour or two. The star anise will make the radishes so good. They make good people food too. 

If you don't mention food I won't mention a recipe.


----------



## bowdonkey

Since the conversation switched to something close to my heart, bunny trapping here's my take. Are the temps low enough to snare? Real low profile. Cages are noticable and expensive when they walk off. Thanks for the recipe FIB. Always looking for rabbit recipes.


----------



## Ernie

I could use a snare but I'm going to wait a year to let the population "recharge". If I clean them all out then we'll just get jackrabbits in their place and those are no good to eat at all.


----------



## Forerunner

Does that nice lady down at the courthouse approve of you using snares ? :nono:


----------



## Ernie

Forerunner said:


> Does that nice lady down at the courthouse approve of you using snares ? :nono:


You mean, Persephone, queen of the ----ed?


----------



## Mike in Ohio

Ernie said:


> I LOVE daikon radishes.
> 
> We've pushed the bunny population back off of our property, unfortunately and now they're in the woods up in the hills (which is owned by some absentee guy out of Dallas). I can poach there and get rabbits, but setting up a trap system might be a little abusive of it. I don't want the rabbit population to diminish too much.


You don't consider poaching on your neighbors property abusive but you consider setting a trap system on their property abusive? Why don't you ask your neighbor? 

We have 17 neighbors around our place. We aren't always down there. One neighbor was poaching and the other neighbor asked permission. The one enjoys sharing in the bounty of our place on an ongoing basis and the other got himself arrested because the game warden saw him.

Do you consider yourself a good neighbor?

Mike


----------



## Sunbee

Idaho lets you salvage road kill. Our neighborhood has a totally unofficial and very organized network for getting this done. There's a guy. If you see a deer hit, you call this guy. He knows who can use it. If you tell the guy you could use a deer, he'll give you a call when he hears one has been hit and you're next up. (He's our 'guy who knows a guy'. Every neighborhood should have a 'guy who knows a guy'.) You go and get your deer, then you go on Fish and Game's website and download a salvage tag. So that's one idea for folks: find out if your state does salvage. Another is consolidate households, though I think that's been mentioned. We've done that. Is it perfect? Oh, no. There are days when we all want to strangle the other three adults. But it beats a lot of the alternatives. Could my husband get a better job in the city somewhere? Sure, we tried that. Expenses of living there meant less available money after necessities than making half as much out here. I think people are going to have to build up their neighborhoods more. Sure, we don't want people butting into our business, but we're all going to have to learn how to build that sort of network, and that means the neighbors are going to know, inevitably, somewhat more about us.


----------



## Forerunner

I don't do much hunting....and I don't do any trapping.

I have told all adjacent landowners who hunt.....that if they shoot and the wounded animal comes onto my land, feel free to come get it.
....and....if they see one near the fence, on me, and they need it...take it.

:shrug:


----------



## Ernie

Mike in Ohio said:


> You don't consider poaching on your neighbors property abusive but you consider setting a trap system on their property abusive? Why don't you ask your neighbor?
> 
> We have 17 neighbors around our place. We aren't always down there. One neighbor was poaching and the other neighbor asked permission. The one enjoys sharing in the bounty of our place on an ongoing basis and the other got himself arrested because the game warden saw him.
> 
> Do you consider yourself a good neighbor?
> 
> Mike


I consider it fair trade for having to clean the trash and garbage out of his creek to avoid it ending up in my pond. The wash goes through his land and flows down into my property. 

I'd ask him, but I've never seen him. From what I've heard, he's never even seen his property.


----------



## tarbe

Forerunner said:


> I don't do much hunting....and I don't do any trapping.
> 
> I have told all adjacent landowners who hunt.....that if they shoot and the wounded animal comes onto my land, feel free to come get it.
> ....and....if they see one near the fence, on me, and they need it...take it.
> 
> :shrug:


...just so long as they stay out of the compost pile!


----------



## Forerunner

Most of the hunters around here close DO bring their offal to the compost pile(s).

So it's a catch22. :shrug:


----------



## pookford

Sunbee said:


> Another is consolidate households, though I think that's been mentioned.


We saw a bit of this in our area when a major manufacturer closed down in 2009 and three of its suppliers closed down immediately after. These were the four largest employers in the county so the job/income losses rippled throughout area communities and made a big mess. 

People tightened their belts and businesses that weren't involved in the initial closures started laying off employees and/or going out of business as well. Foreclosure rates skyrocketed, households consolidated, and and those that couldn't or wouldn't consolidate filled homeless shelters to capacity. I imagine it would be stressful to live with others when you're used to having your privacy, but if the alternative was being homeless, I'd pick consolidation any day.


----------



## where I want to

I just read something that said the chances of being re employed after being out of work for a year are 9%. Why is it good to encourage reaching that year before getting aggressive about doing what needs doing? Even a series of short term jobs interspersed with unemployment would serve better.


----------



## susieneddy

pookford said:


> The speedy 'thanks but no thanks' reply is based on a person's answers to pre-qualification questions that are asked during the application process.
> 
> 
> These systems can only 'reject' an application based on the answers to pre-qualification questions like the landscaper example above. They are not set up to reject applicants based on date of birth, gender, etc.





while that is true they can't ask your age they sure can ask when you graduated from high school. It is easy to figure out your age from that....next


----------



## pookford

That's true. A person's age can easily be calculated based on quite a few things. But, since online application systems are built to comply with legal hiring practices and therefore make it difficult (some systems even make it impossible) to automatically disqualify applicants based on date fields or responses to EEO questions, it is quite likely that something else entirely prompted the system to send out the automated rejection letter. It could be that the job listing was set up incorrectly and all applications are being rejected. The system could be set up to reject applicants that report having less than 10 years experience in the field. Or, perhaps they set up that job listing to only accept candidates with a post-secondary degree. Employers are being increasingly picky and unfortunately, online systems make it easier for them to do that.

I agree that there are some shady recruiters out there that don't follow the letter of the law and shame on them for it. I was just trying to give some pointers to help people avoid getting an automated rejection based on an honest mistake like misreading a question.


----------



## WV Farm girl

Since the thread has drifted I will give some advice since I am in HR. 
#1. Spelling, grammar and punctuation do matter! If you don't know how to spell it don't include it on a resume or application. If you are applying to be a nurse aide spell nurse correctly! I have seen nurse spelled nirse and a candy striper spelled stripper. Neither application got a second look. 
#2. Handwritten resumes don't fly. Type it up. 
#3. Come in to fill out an app or for an interview dressed appropriately. No tanks or flip flops. 
#4. Don't come in with a long list of demands. Only work these days, must have this time off, etc. Sorry. There are other ppl out there that will work everyday. 
#5. When I call you for orientation, come in. Don't beg off. What's more important than a job after you just begged me for it?!
#6. Do call and check on resumes. Call and ask if there are job openings. I have pulled apps and looked at them again simply because of this.
#7. Don't bad mouth your last employer in the interview!
#8. Look at you Facebook acct. I may. Is what on there appropriate?


----------



## bowdonkey

susieneddy said:


> while that is true they can't ask your age they sure can ask when you graduated from high school. It is easy to figure out your age from that....next


Or if you're Vietnam era. I learned to late to never admit to that. WVfarmgirl, stripper would have caught my attention and consideration.


----------



## mnn2501

Wanda said:


> I will play the game. If we were able to fill every job available in the oil fields of N Dakota how many people were put to work?


Some of y'all keep talking about the oil boom and North Dakota, but there are good, good paying jobs in most every larger city that have nothing to do with any 'boom' these are permanent full time jobs.


----------



## farmerj

the article I was referencing earlier.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown...ployment----made-in-america-by-employers.html



> The Employment System Vendors Are Lying
> 
> The big job boards and the ATSes tell employers that sophisticated database technology will find the perfect hire.
> 
> "Don't settle for teaching a good worker anything about doing a job. Hire only the perfect fit!"
> "We make that possible when you use more keywords for a job!"
> "The database handles it all!"
> When matches fail to appear, these vendors blame "the talent shortage" and contend that job seekers lack the specific skills employers need.
> 
> Except that's a lie. Job descriptions heavily larded with keywords make it virtually impossible to find acceptable candidates. Wharton researcher Peter Cappelli tells about an employer that got 25,000 applicants for a routine engineering position. The ATS rejected every single one of them. Every day that an impossible job requisition remains unfilled, the employment system vendors make more money while companies keep advertising for the perfect hires.
> 
> Millions of jobs are vacant, thanks to the empty promises of algorithms. Ignoring the role of the systems behind this failure is a costly mistake.
> 
> If the U.S. Congress wants answers about the jobs crisis, it should launch an investigation into the workings of America's employment system infrastructure, which is effectively controlled by a handful of companies.


----------



## mnn2501

Ernie said:


> I planted asparagus last year and I've been watching these big bushy ferny plants grow out and I keep thinking, "Where's the edible part?" Heh. See? I still got a lot to learn about those things.


 Ferns are what you get when you don't cut them in time.
Asparagus is a spring time thing, we let ours 'fern up' in the summer then cut them in the late winter to just above the ground line.


----------



## mnn2501

Ernie said:


> God provides.
> .


Except when he doesn't.

I think you are no doubt in a lot better spot than 99% of the U.S. population as you have knowledge about what things are edible in a pinch, however I am still firmly a member of the 'God helps those who help themselves' camp


----------



## susieneddy

pookford said:


> That's true. A person's age can easily be calculated based on quite a few things. But, since online application systems are built to comply with legal hiring practices and therefore make it difficult (some systems even make it impossible) to automatically disqualify applicants based on date fields or responses to EEO questions, it is quite likely that something else entirely prompted the system to send out the automated rejection letter. It could be that the job listing was set up incorrectly and all applications are being rejected. The system could be set up to reject applicants that report having less than 10 years experience in the field. Or, perhaps they set up that job listing to only accept candidates with a post-secondary degree. Employers are being increasingly picky and unfortunately, online systems make it easier for them to do that.
> 
> I agree that there are some shady recruiters out there that don't follow the letter of the law and shame on them for it. I was just trying to give some pointers to help people avoid getting an automated rejection based on an honest mistake like misreading a question.



you keep making excuses as to why people over a certain age don't get hired. You can keep thinking that way if you want but more and more people over 55 are being rejected even when they are qualified for that job. By using an online application it is easier to reject you than if you came in for an interview. 

I know for a fact this person had all of the qualifications for the jobs listed because she had done those jobs before but yet she was rejected in a matter of minutes. I would bet it had to do with her age.

You would think that a person who had years of experience in the job that was posted would be called in for an interview.


----------



## Forerunner

God helps those who have their ear finely tuned to His voice and obey when they hear it.

Sometimes that requires a lot of sweat.....as per His direction.

Sometimes that means waiting patiently....

I do agree, however, that a "man of God" will generally find himself more prone to industriousness, by preference.


----------



## Ernie

mnn2501 said:


> Except when he doesn't.
> 
> I think you are no doubt in a lot better spot than 99% of the U.S. population as you have knowledge about what things are edible in a pinch, however I am still firmly a member of the 'God helps those who help themselves' camp


I always think of Elijah, running a vast distance to be where he was told that God was waiting for him. 

If I show up and lean on God, then God blesses me for it. I can go dig in the dirt all I want but I can't make a single seed sprout. That's God's doing.


----------



## mnn2501

Ernie said:


> I always think of Elijah, running a vast distance to be where he was told that God was waiting for him.
> 
> If I show up and lean on God, then God blesses me for it. I can go dig in the dirt all I want but I can't make a single seed sprout. That's God's doing.


You're right, but you're still doing what God requires for the plant to sprout/grow; digging in the dirt, planting the seed, watering it or even harvesting some of the wild bounty; be that meat, vegetation or insects.
If I may extrapolate further on what Forerunner said above, if all someone does is to sit on their butt and complain that they're hungry, Gods probably not going to bless them.
I've read enough of your posts to know you don't do that.


----------



## Ernie

mnn2501 said:


> You're right, but you're still doing what God requires for the plant to sprout/grow; digging in the dirt, planting the seed, watering it or even harvesting some of the wild bounty; be that meat, vegetation or insects.
> If I may extrapolate further on what Forerunner said above, if all someone does is to sit on their butt and complain that they're hungry, Gods probably not going to bless them.
> I've read enough of your posts to know you don't do that.


I don't know how to split your part into two quotes so I'll answer them both separately. 

First paragraph:

I believe that work is a form of prayer. It is pleasing to God when we learn the PROPER way that He intended us to do things and when offer our labor up to Him in love and as praise. And we are blessed in return for doing those things "properly", or as properly as we know how. 

Second paragraph:

You only know of me what I show the world.  There is WAY TOO MUCH sitting on my butt and wringing my hands in worry over things. I am trying very hard to eliminate that sort of behavior from my life, but it is difficult to break a lifetime of bad habits. With God's help I will continue to turn towards Him, but I suspect it will take the rest of my days to ever attain anything remotely resembling true peace in the matter.


----------



## rkintn

......


----------



## pookford

susieneddy said:


> you keep making excuses as to why people over a certain age don't get hired. You can keep thinking that way if you want but more and more people over 55 are being rejected even when they are qualified for that job.


Yes, there are boogers in this world that discriminate, but I'm not one of them and I'm not making excuses for them. I'm just an IT gal who knows how tricky these online systems can be and I was trying to explain a little about how they work in the hopes that it would help someone (of any age) get their application through to a human that will actually give it consideration.

I'm new here and was just trying to be helpful. Truce?


----------



## susieneddy

pookford,

I am sure you know more about how it works than I do. All I have to go by is the rejects Susie got when she applied online. She knows how all the i's have to do dotted and t's crossed based on past jobs in the corporate, retail and wholesale world.
It never crossed her mind that she couldn't get a job based on her experience. 

We are good so no problems at all.


----------



## Ernie

Here's how backwards and upside down this argument is.

For almost all of my working life, I was taxed in the highest percentile due to my high salaries. 

I averaged that out to $33,000 per year taken from me by the federal government, for 16 years. 

That's $528,000 taken from me by the federal government and used to fight foreign wars to benefit the oil companies and military-industrial complex, bail out the banks and mortgage companies, to give to foreign nations for whatever they wanted to spend it on, to build a giant police state to spy on me and make me a fugitive in my own country, and to buy millions of rounds of ammo for the DHS to arm themselves against any possible retaliation by me and other taxpayers who are tired of being looted.

BUT YET (by the calculator on their website), 99 weeks of unemployment would put back in my pocket less than $24,000 (which I would have to pay taxes on as income).

So where is the real theft?

You have been taught to rationalize and justify all theft and violence flowing DOWN from the top of the hierarchy and to react with indignation and outrage with what they call theft when it flows UP the hierarchy.

You're not going to set yourselves free until you recognize the indoctrination and crippling the government has put into your mind since you were born.

(This rant brought to you by me listening to Rush Limbaugh pontificate on the topic while I labored away in the workshop.)


----------



## bowdonkey

Outstanding post Ernie. Now if we can just get people to realize how the tax code has put their hand in the cookie jar. Me included. The tax code is a very controlling, vote buying mechanism.


----------



## sidepasser

Pook is right about keying the resume to the words that will get one noticed. When I was sending out resumes I read the ad, then tailored my resume to reflect the things the ad was seeking using key words that would get past the computer scan. I never applied to jobs I was not qualified for.

I understand why companies use resume review through computer, some jobs have thousands apply and no one person can sit and review that many resumes. Ex: The newly opened gun manufacturer in S. Carolina had 2,000 applications for 30 positions. When KIA opened in Ga, there were 2500 jobs and 55,000 applications for those jobs. There were so many applications that KIA shut the job site down early and stated they would not take any more resumes for a period of time.

I do think there is "some" age discrimination, but on the other hand, some companies do value experience. I was last hired at age 51. So I do know there are companies who hire based on experience.

Taxes are always going to be here - no use complaining about it. So far it hasn't done me one bit of good and just upsets my blood pressure.


----------



## Wanda

sidepasser said:


> Pook is right about keying the resume to the words that will get one noticed. When I was sending out resumes I read the ad, then tailored my resume to reflect the things the ad was seeking using key words that would get past the computer scan. I never applied to jobs I was not qualified for.
> 
> I understand why companies use resume review through computer, some jobs have thousands apply and no one person can sit and review that many resumes. Ex: The newly opened gun manufacturer in S. Carolina had 2,000 applications for 30 positions. When KIA opened in Ga, there were 2500 jobs and 55,000 applications for those jobs. There were so many applications that KIA shut the job site down early and stated they would not take any more resumes for a period of time.
> 
> I do think there is "some" age discrimination, but on the other hand, some companies do value experience. I was last hired at age 51. So I do know there are companies who hire based on experience.
> 
> Taxes are always going to be here - no use complaining about it. So far it hasn't done me one bit of good and just upsets my blood pressure.



The number of people applying for jobs is what so many fail to understand. There are lots of people out there that are looking for work and are not the dead beats that we hear about. The 10 jobs that the corner store has doesn't go very far.


----------



## Buffy in Dallas

I got laid off last July. My husband (employer) decided that some blond home wrecking hussy could do my job better than me. Now I'm about to lose my home and I had to give all my chickens and ducks away. See, Housewives can lose their jobs too. Now I have to go to court to fight for my unemployment benefits. (alimony)


----------



## where I want to

Wanda said:


> The number of people applying for jobs is what so many fail to understand. There are lots of people out there that are looking for work and are not the dead beats that we hear about. The 10 jobs that the corner store has doesn't go very far.


I think most people do understand. But the problem is that paying unemployment forever will never resolve that problem. It just makes it worse by allowing people to coast on in the hopes of better things until they have no resources to use to help themselves.
There is a point where it is clear that stronger action is needed and that means, since the government has failed for 6 years, there is more hope in individual efforts in creating work for themselves. 
I am suspicious about dwelling constantly on why a person can't do something. That is a sure self - fulfilling prophecy. And it seems to be true for only some.
The people who have taken jobs at a much lower wage do really have my sympathy. And I hope as the job market tightens, they will have the clout to get a better return. That does seem to be the next thing in a recovery.


----------



## mnn2501

Ernie said:


> So where is the real theft?
> 
> You have been taught to rationalize and justify all theft and violence flowing DOWN from the top of the hierarchy and to react with indignation and outrage with what they call theft when it flows UP the hierarchy.
> 
> You're not going to set yourselves free until you recognize the indoctrination and crippling the government has put into your mind since you were born.


You're 100% right Ernie, this government is bloated and it will be as long as we keep re-electing the same people. 
The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing (electing dems and repubs in this case) and expecting a different outcome. Yet they have set up the system up so only that is possible, sure you may elect a real public servant here and there (someone with a conscience that is trying to do the right thing), but they are a lone wolf that can't get anything done.

As Robert Heinlein said


> 'âBread and Circusesâ is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure. Democracy often works beautifully at first. But once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death.


"
I see nothing short of an apocalyptic event stopping this as there are no new frontiers to move to to get away from this and just I don't see a second American revolution starting. Certainly ours is the last generation that would have the incentive and we're getting old. The newer generations are too distracted by their electronic toys and social media to even know what they are missing.


----------



## wes917

mnn2501 said:


> I see nothing short of an apocalyptic event stopping this as there are no new frontiers to move to to get away from this and just I don't see a second American revolution starting. Certainly ours is the last generation that would have the incentive and we're getting old. The newer generations are too distracted by their electronic toys and social media to even know what they are missing.


You think so? There's plenty of people my age that are ----ed off about the mess were going to have to deal with and try to clean up. We didn't vote for this nonsense and sit idly by while it was happening, we were to young or not born yet. So I don't agree the older generation has the incentive bc well it progressed to this point through its lifetime without missing a beat.


----------



## bowdonkey

wes917 said:


> You think so? There's plenty of people my age that are ----ed off about the mess were going to have to deal with and try to clean up. We didn't vote for this nonsense and sit idly by while it was happening, we were to young or not born yet. So I don't agree the older generation has the incentive bc well it progressed to this point through its lifetime without missing a beat.


I beleive a more equitable way of being taxed to pay for the debt would be that you are only responsible for principal and interest that was accrued from the time of the first election you were legally able to vote in. Let us older folks who grew up in these good times past pay for it. Absolutely not fair to the younger generations to pay a penny towards it. Either tax and spend or do without. None of this borrow and spend to create an illusion of good times and prosperity.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

bowdonkey said:


> I beleive a more equitable way of being taxed to pay for the debt would be that you are only responsible for principal and interest that was accrued from the time of the first election you were legally able to vote in. Let us older folks who grew up in these good times past pay for it. Absolutely not fair to the younger generations to pay a penny towards it. Either tax and spend or do without. None of this borrow and spend to create an illusion of good times and prosperity.


Yep and at 0% interest it would probably be paid off in less than 2,000 years :runforhills:


----------



## farmerj

Sawmill Jim said:


> Yep and at 0% interest it would probably be paid off in less than 2,000 years :runforhills:


Like it will ever be paid off now....


Now it's just being turned into a generational ----ing match.

The truth is the two-party system has been broke a long time. I'd say going back to Lincoln. No fixing it anytime soon either.


----------



## mnn2501

wes917 said:


> You think so? There's plenty of people my age that are ----ed off about the mess were going to have to deal with and try to clean up. We didn't vote for this nonsense and sit idly by while it was happening, we were to young or not born yet. So I don't agree the older generation has the incentive bc well it progressed to this point through its lifetime without missing a beat.


Don't know what age you are but from the young ones around here the best I would expect is a tweet. All I see from the younger ones (14-35) these days is they stare at their phones all day and get a good thumb workout.


----------



## bowdonkey

mnn2501 said:


> Don't know what age you are but from the young ones around here the best I would expect is a tweet. All I see from the younger ones (14-35) these days is they stare at their phones all day and get a good thumb workout.


The ones I rub shoulders with are nurses,teachers, firemen and soldiers. You need to run with a better crowd.


----------



## sidepasser

The young people I know are good workers, most are well educated and often are here when I get to my job in the morning at 6:30-7:00 am. Some have families and are buying their first home. I work with many who are 24-35 and most have advanced degrees, and are paying taxes just like the rest of us and are totally disgusted with how the government is being run.

Why do people seem to think that the younger generation is a bunch of dead beats who only play video games? I play video games and have a smart phone and that is my way of relaxing after auditing all day long. Every generation has their own way of dealing with stress, and after all - OUR generation is the one that invented video games, smart phones and the like. I do believe that Bill Gates, and Steve Jobs were in my generation. The younger generation simply took what our generation invented and developed it into useful forms that enable people to talk around the world, text, game, develop music and art without having to fly to meet other people and able to do things such as have this very forum.

I am sure my mother's generation thinks that my generation is also a bunch of whining losers who have it "easy" - after all - I sure didn't walk ten miles uphill in both directions in the snow to go to school, but my mom DID walk to school everyday. 

Let's try not to divide the generations by categorizing all the younger people as lazy, worthless and only able to use their thumbs.


----------



## mnn2501

sidepasser said:


> Let's try not to divide the generations by categorizing all the younger people as lazy, worthless and only able to use their thumbs.


Its all I see, all day, every day. They can barely interrupt their entertainment to do their job. I go to work and they're staring at their phones in the elevator and while walking down the hall, they're checking them every 10 minutes while they work (the bosses had to make a rule that no one could bring their phones into meetings), then I go out to eat and every one of them has their face in their phone. Even at church invariably I'll hear 'beep, beep, beep' and look over and see a young person bent over (and its not in prayer)

I am certainly glad your experience is different, maybe there is hope, but I call them as I see them.


----------



## AngieM2

Hey, don't use words that get the ---- in it, those are censored and should not be used. I'll do a little clean up later, but please don't let it get too much "us" and "them".

There are lazies in both, all age groups.

Heck, I look at a computer terminal all day. So, am I chopped liver?


----------



## sidepasser

No chopped liver here Angie! I also use a computer most of the day and it gets tiring. Many companies require a smart phone (my work email is on my phone and I am expected to check it when away from my desk - so I am also one with my nose stuck in my phone walking down hallways and in elevators and at lunch and at home).

I can also work from home due to VPN and do many nights. Times have changed alot from the old 8-5, now my day starts at 4:00 am answering email from Germany, Finland and sometimes India and ends sometimes at 9-10 at night. Technology has made some things easier, but the backside of it is that due to that very ease of use - many work longer days than ever before.


----------



## mpillow

mnn2501 said:


> Its all I see, all day, every day. They can barely interrupt their entertainment to do their job. I go to work and they're staring at their phones in the elevator and while walking down the hall, they're checking them every 10 minutes while they work (the bosses had to make a rule that no one could bring their phones into meetings), then I go out to eat and every one of them has their face in their phone. Even at church invariably I'll hear 'beep, beep, beep' and look over and see a young person bent over (and its not in prayer)
> 
> I am certainly glad your experience is different, maybe there is hope, but I call them as I see them.


You haven't met my children.....2 things I prize highly are INTEGRITY and good work ethic....and when you screw up you apologize and always be polite and grateful. Ages 19,18 and 12.


----------



## mnn2501

mpillow said:


> You haven't met my children.....2 things I prize highly are INTEGRITY and good work ethic....and when you screw up you apologize and always be polite and grateful. Ages 19,18 and 12.


Fantastic - well done


----------



## Forerunner

AngieM2 said:


> I look at a computer terminal all day. So, am I chopped liver?


Naw.....

......computer terminal potato.


----------



## Patchouli

Ernie said:


> My my.
> 
> Well, first off you don't know what we do or don't have put aside, nor what we are willing to eat in order to get by. We've got plenty of food, and I dare say I'll be fat and happy when a lot of people's vast food hoards are completely gone.
> 
> But second of all ... these aren't things I worry about. Literally no worry. We get by each and every day. Nobody has ever went hungry around here. God provides.
> 
> I guess if I thought like you do then I'd be busy every day, squirreling up nuts for winter. How would I ever know when is enough? A week's worth? A month's worth? A year? I'd work my fingers to the bone gnawing them in worry and fear.
> 
> I find that a simply hilarious point of view to have. Food is there for me every day. It may not always be my favorite, but it's always there.
> 
> It must suck to someone who spends hours and hours and thousands of dollars "preparing" for an uncertain future when I simply just sit here and watch as God provides a bounty. A surplus even!
> 
> *Your father knows what you need before you ask him. Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? So do not worry, saying, "What shall we eat?" or "What shall we wear?" For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Today's trouble is enough for today. (Matthew 6:8b,25,31-34)*
> 
> And it's so true! I know that now! God has provided us with so much and there's the constancy of the promise that tomorrow's needs will be met as well.
> 
> Hehehe. Gah. I'm so pleased that I don't have to depend upon my own strengths and doings. That would be terrifying.


Isn't the whole point of Survival and Emergency Preparedness preparing? I am sure we could all survive on tree bark, lichen and gophers but most of us are prepping so we don't have to do so.


----------



## Ernie

Patchouli said:


> Isn't the whole point of Survival and Emergency Preparedness preparing? I am sure we could all survive on tree bark, lichen and gophers but most of us are prepping so we don't have to do so.


No, I don't think it is.

If all you are interested in is stockpiling goods then we hardly need to talk about that in an internet forum. Take your little credit card and drive down to the Piggly Wiggly and buy as much as you can afford and carry and stick it in a spare room in your house. And then when you get your next paycheck you go do it all over again.

I'm not AGAINST stockpiling goods, because I believe there are times and individuals whom God will tell to do so. And historically, most peoples would stockpile a little bit, if nothing else to get them through a winter. Or at the very basic level, we didn't finish our soup last night so we put the leftovers in the fridge to eat today (when we wouldn't have soup), so hurray! I'm a prepper too!

But ultimately I think many "preppers" are simply preparing to fail. You bought a can of seeds in a canister which says on the label it will last ten years, and you think "When the poc-a-lypse hits, I'll open the can and have a garden!" Yet you don't know anything about gardening today and you won't know anything more about it ten years from now. What you've bought is a can full of failure.

Or you say, "I've got 3 weeks of water stored up and 10 months of food! Hurray! I'm better than the sheeple who only have 3 days worth!"

But you don't know anything about how to procure and sanitize water or how to gather or prepare foods, so what you've done is essentially continue your normal consumer lifestyle projected out over 10 months. 

If you are stockpiling anything as a means to bridge a gap then you're ahead of the game. If you're simply stockpiling stuff because buying crap is all you know how to do ... you're exhibiting some very foolish behavior.


----------



## Patchouli

Forerunner said:


> Some of you will understand.....
> 
> Despair is but one of the high costs of atheism.


I know a lot of Atheists and none of them are despairing. Strangely enough I have met a few despairing Christians over the years though.


----------



## pax6

Hi all. I have a question. I have been on EI benefits since October. (Seasonal layoff). I am under the impression the company would like to bring me back but my position is not one of the first they call back for. I think I would like to let them know I would be happy to work in another (unskilled) position until there is an opening for my skilled position. What would be a good way to go about this?


----------



## AngieM2

So learning and doing is the ultimate Survival prep.


----------



## Patchouli

Ernie said:


> No, I don't think it is.
> 
> If all you are interested in is stockpiling goods then we hardly need to talk about that in an internet forum. Take your little credit card and drive down to the Piggly Wiggly and buy as much as you can afford and carry and stick it in a spare room in your house. And then when you get your next paycheck you go do it all over again.
> 
> I'm not AGAINST stockpiling goods, because I believe there are times and individuals whom God will tell to do so. And historically, most peoples would stockpile a little bit, if nothing else to get them through a winter. Or at the very basic level, we didn't finish our soup last night so we put the leftovers in the fridge to eat today (when we wouldn't have soup), so hurray! I'm a prepper too!
> 
> But ultimately I think many "preppers" are simply preparing to fail. You bought a can of seeds in a canister which says on the label it will last ten years, and you think "When the poc-a-lypse hits, I'll open the can and have a garden!" Yet you don't know anything about gardening today and you won't know anything more about it ten years from now. What you've bought is a can full of failure.
> 
> Or you say, "I've got 3 weeks of water stored up and 10 months of food! Hurray! I'm better than the sheeple who only have 3 days worth!"
> 
> But you don't know anything about how to procure and sanitize water or how to gather or prepare foods, so what you've done is essentially continue your normal consumer lifestyle projected out over 10 months.
> 
> If you are stockpiling anything as a means to bridge a gap then you're ahead of the game. If you're simply stockpiling stuff because buying crap is all you know how to do ... you're exhibiting some very foolish behavior.


That's kind of a huge assumption there that it is an either/or situation. I have an enormous garden and I save seeds, I have goats, sheep, hogs and poultry so I have a meat source that constantly reproduces, I have food put away to last me for the next year. I also live near woods and water so I can fish or hunt or forage if needed and I know how to do all three. 

Seems to me we should be aiming for the total package shouldn't we? You are right that tons of canned food alone won't get you far but neither will foraging in a desert space with all of your fellow starving citizens if worst ever really came down to worst. And just in every day life having a stockpile of food for the year you have a drought or disease hits your animals or your income source hits a rocky patch is just general prudence is it not?


----------



## mnn2501

pax6 said:


> Hi all. I have a question. I have been on EI benefits since October. (Seasonal layoff). I am under the impression the company would like to bring me back but my position is not one of the first they call back for. I think I would like to let them know I would be happy to work in another (unskilled) position until there is an opening for my skilled position. What would be a good way to go about this?


Call your old boss and let him/her know.
If they are gone go up the chain of command.


----------



## pax6

Thanks. My boss is the owner. I guess I am wondering if I'm shooting myself in the foot by letting them know I'm willing to work for less? Does that damage future wage negotiations for my normal position?


----------



## Ernie

Patchouli said:


> That's kind of a huge assumption there that it is an either/or situation. I have an enormous garden and I save seeds, I have goats, sheep, hogs and poultry so I have a meat source that constantly reproduces, I have food put away to last me for the next year. I also live near woods and water so I can fish or hunt or forage if needed and I know how to do all three.


Sounds like you need to pick a side of the argument and stay on it. Because now you're making my point for me.


----------



## mistletoad

Ernie said:


> Because now you're making my point for me.


He really wasn't and if you really think he was, you might want to think about how your own argument is coming across.


----------



## Patchouli

Ernie said:


> Sounds like you need to pick a side of the argument and stay on it. Because now you're making my point for me.


No because you left off the second half of my post. You don't have the year's worth of food stockpiled nor can you survive long where you are without it if you have a truly bad year or the world really falls apart. You own a few acres in the middle of another man's land. You only have half the package not the total one.


----------



## Tiempo

While I agree that buying stocks of seeds etc. without knowing how to grow and use them is useless, I really doubt there are many 'preppers' here who fit into that category.

The majority of members here are accomplished gardeners and livestock managers and skilled, experienced homesteaders.

Elkhound and Swan come immediately to mind, but there are many.


----------



## NJ Rich

There are many conditions that help create unemployment. People taking jobs for wages below what can be normally expected. The local fast food places always had a lot of elderly and high school kids working. Now they have been replaced by Hispanics. You may go in a place and have a hard time finding many people that can truly understand and speak English.

Local contractors have replaced people of all ethnic backgrounds with Hispanics. They will work using headlights from trucks and work after dark.

One siding contractor had a van loaded with equipment on the roof and loaded inside with Hispanics. It broke down and when the police arrived all they saw was one man, the driver, and people running away through wooded areas. Wonder why.

A Mason Contractor told me, "I can hire 5 or 6 of these people (Hispanics) for what one (English Speaking American) worker would cost me". How can anyone succeed against that?

They are living 20 or more people in a house with two bedrooms. The local authorities seem to have their hands tied by the guberment. The local officials won't even look into these conditions unless there is a crime. 

They cram the emergency rooms for common colds, etc. since they know the hospitals are required by law to treat them for free. Me and many of you are paying for that through an added cost to our health care. 

I see how all of these illegals are adding to the employment problems. It is painfully apparent to all here. Companies are using the lack of employment to offer far lower wages or give the job to someone else. Or they hire two people for what one would cost prior to this huge downturn in the US economy.

The :grumble: president does nothing to address the problems and gives money away all over the world to other countries. 

I say bring back programs such as the Civilian Conservation Corp. My father worked in that during this countries hard times. :cowboy: Thanks Pop.


----------



## sidepasser

The way I was raised was to always have a years worth of food put by in case the garden fails, the chickens up and perish, the hogs don't have a litter, etc.

I did that on my farm and much of what I learned was through Rodele, Countryside and the old Lusenet Forum plus my experience living with my Granny. I have some short comings as well, I can't sew for nothing although I own a machine. Just never cared for it, figured if all else fails, I can barter for some clothes. 

I did learn over the years to raise turkeys, geese, rabbits, pigs, calves, chickens and horses. I also learned how to garden in raised beds, save seeds, can and dry what I raised. I know how to shock corn by hand, use a scythe, and also how to use a tractor. I can garden using just a hoe, rake, shovel, and a tiller. I know how to milk a goat and a cow and how to handle the milk and to make butter and cheese.

Now I do not have a farm so I do not do any of the "farm" things that I used to do. What I am doing now is putting up enough food for a year, and searching out for a new farm based on the the knowledge I gained from the old one.

It doesn't necessarily mean that I am not able to do all the things before, as I have the knowledge of HOW to do them even though I do not have the space. I garden on my patio - works for me for right now given my circumstances. 

The point is that one should have knowledge of how to do many things in order to actually survive, but no one will know how to do everything. Just isn't enough hours in the day to learn every.single.thing you might need to know. but if you know how to do the basics, you will probably get along well enough to be able to barter for what you can't do yourself.

Or you can be a very exceptional naked gardener


----------



## Patchouli

mpillow said:


> Ernie....do you have access to some of those live have a hart type traps? Because you might have a nice quiet method of catching buns.....I've done it to catch the offspring of my "free ranging domestic buns" I also know that some wild rabbits have bred into my loose ones....You can spread the gene pool that way.
> 
> I'd find a nice sunny spot this time of year after a cold snap to get some rattlesnake too. I hate snakes but I like to eat!
> 
> And diakon radish....not just for people....the goats love that stuff.....plus it will reseed itself and spread nicely if you leave a couple roots to go to seed.


Wild North American rabbits actually can not breed with your domesticated rabbits. Our rabbits come from Europe and the 2 can not interbreed.


----------



## wes917

mnn2501 said:


> Don't know what age you are but from the young ones around here the best I would expect is a tweet. All I see from the younger ones (14-35) these days is they stare at their phones all day and get a good thumb workout.


I am 32 have two associates a bachelors am part way to an MBA all while working full time and raising a family. I also have 18 welding certificates. Most everyone my age that I associate with is the same way, a number have businesses of their own, advanced degrees, or many certificates in their be it mechanics, auto body, nursing, dental w/e. 

Maybe you "only ever" see what you describe because you are looking through impaired glasses. You've stereotyped this age demographic this way so your brain looks for and finds "proof" of this behavior to confirm this feeling for yourself. JMO of course.


----------



## unregistered5595

Patchouli said:


> Wild North American rabbits actually can not breed with your domesticated rabbits. Our rabbits come from Europe and the 2 can not interbreed.


Maybe they need a european to american voltage converters to do that. (okay just ignore me--there is something there that makes me laugh)


----------



## Patchouli

Feather In The Breeze said:


> Maybe they need a european to american voltage converters to do that. (okay just ignore me--there is something there that makes me laugh)


Made me laugh too.


----------



## wes917

mnn2501 said:


> Its all I see, all day, every day. They can barely interrupt their entertainment to do their job. I go to work and they're staring at their phones in the elevator and while walking down the hall, they're checking them every 10 minutes while they work (the bosses had to make a rule that no one could bring their phones into meetings), then I go out to eat and every one of them has their face in their phone. Even at church invariably I'll hear 'beep, beep, beep' and look over and see a young person bent over (and its not in prayer)
> 
> I am certainly glad your experience is different, maybe there is hope, but I call them as I see them.


It's funny you say that, so far in my worki h life I've seen three people lose their jobs over Internet surfing, one lady could t stay off eBay, one guy couldn't stay away from porn, and another lady couldn't get enough cute kitty videos on YouTube. Guess what they were all in their late 40's to early 50's. Last place I was at a guy got in trouble and suspended for posting to Facebook during work mid fifties. So using your logic should I say all middle aged people play on their computers all day? 

That obviously doesn't make sense just like your continual argument that all young people are lazy, electronic device addicted people.

Edit to add: you also make it sound like you work in an office setting so I'll ASSume 8-4 , 9-5 or some similar hours? Yet all posts in this thread are made between 9-3? See what assumptions you can make when you assume things about people? Kind of like what you did with the "younger" "lazy" crowd.


----------



## AngieM2

Everyone - back off NOW. No slamming each other.


----------



## mpillow

Patchouli said:


> Wild North American rabbits actually can not breed with your domesticated rabbits. Our rabbits come from Europe and the 2 can not interbreed.


I did some research....the #'s of cottontails are very low in my state so since I saw them doing the wild thang....its probably a loose domesticated bun from the 'hood.....I assumed it was changing color because it was Spring and the bun was brown and white...:shrug: 


Mine are mostly from New Zealand and California :lookout:


----------



## Patchouli

mpillow said:


> I did some research....the #'s of cottontails are very low in my state so since I saw them doing the wild thang....its probably a loose domesticated bun from the 'hood.....I assumed it was changing color because it was Spring and the bun was brown and white...:shrug:
> 
> 
> Mine are mostly from New Zealand and California :lookout:


All domesticated rabbits come from European breeding stock though.  They can still try to mate just nothing will come of it. Like sheep and goats.


----------



## edjewcollins

So Obama and the Dems talk out one side of their mouths talking about how great their policies are and how much they have helped and how great the United States is doing. The other side of the mouth keeps talking about all these social safety nets we need to expand or extend to help the "millions of folks" that need them. Typical communist double speak.


----------



## Forerunner

What about adverse possession ?

Is that a violation, or a natural right ?


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## elkhound

mike...every state is different some states you dont need permission to hunt on private property if its NOT posted.

in U.K. they have the right to roam law .


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## logbuilder

Forerunner said:


> What about adverse possession ?
> 
> Is that a violation, or a natural right ?


In my mind, adverse possession is man's rationalization, via laws, of the saying "Finders keepers, losers weepers".


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## Mike in Ohio

Forerunner said:


> What about adverse possession ?
> 
> Is that a violation, or a natural right ?


Adverse posession normally requires open and blatant use for an extended period. Doesn't apply in the case at hand. 

When you claim adverse posession as a natural right then you are falling back to "might is right" as the standard. Is that really where you want to go? If so, then all your claims as to how the government abuses you are out the window. They have the right to treat you how they want because they have the power to treat you as they wish.


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## elkhound

no mike you missed my point..do you know the laws of texas? i use to travel a lot..i mean a lot to hunt and fish when i was younger..i kept myself up to date on the states i hunted in laws...not now as i dont travel.....there are/were states with absentee landowner laws...if property was not posted by legal methods under method prescribed by the law then anyone could hunt and fish on that land.

i dont know texas laws but if they have absentee land owner law then the neighbors property is fair game if not posted....like i said....IF...IF..thats the law there as i dont know its laws there in texas.


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## Patchouli

I agree with Mike. The property next to us is owned by people out of state. I went to the County tax office and got their mailing address and wrote them to ask if we could graze our animals on their property and they wrote back and allowed us to do so. They come down every couple of years to look things over and we developed a friendly relationship. We keep their property mowed down and the fences in good repair and keep an eye out on things and in return we get a free acreage to graze on and a good relationship. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to try and make contact and a friendship at the beginning.


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## Forerunner

Adverse possession, to me, ranks right up there with eminent domain.

Neither recognize true property rights....though adverse possession may come a little closer, under certain conditions.

I was just tossing it out there to gain some perspective.


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## elkhound

AngieM2 said:


> Everyone - back off NOW. No slamming each other.



:shrug::teehee::whistlin:...must be winter....lets use spit wads on each other as its to close to spring chores to use pitch forks...not enough time to heal each other up....lol


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## Tiempo

elkhound said:


> :shrug::teehee::whistlin:...must be winter....lets use spit wads on each other as its to close to spring chores to use pitch forks...not enough time to heal each other up....lol


IDK Elkhound, poaching is a touchy subject and we are mostly landowners here. Fessing up to poaching to a bunch of landowners is bound to ruffle feathers anytime of year.


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## Patchouli

Forerunner said:


> Adverse possession, to me, ranks right up there with eminent domain.
> 
> Neither recognize true property rights....though adverse possession may come a little closer, under certain conditions.
> 
> I was just tossing it out there to gain some perspective.


I tend to agree with you on adverse possession and eminent domain not recognizing true property rights. It is either might is right or you truly own your property.

I find this interesting because we see this topic posted a lot on here by people who have bought property in another county or state and they have problems with people trespassing or poaching, etc. The usual recommendation is for them to fence up and arm up. Now we are seeing this from the perspective of the other side of the fence.


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## logbuilder

Forerunner said:


> Adverse possession, to me, ranks right up there with eminent domain.
> 
> Neither recognize true property rights....though adverse possession may come a little closer, under certain conditions.
> 
> I was just tossing it out there to gain some perspective.


Eminent domain is more scary to me. With the force of the law and govt, your land can be taken as long as it is in the 'public interest'. I've heard of land being taken at low prices and then sold to a developer for a huge price. The justification was that there would be lots more taxes from the new development than before so it is therefore in the public's interest to do this. What a load.

At least with adverse possession, there is the element of time. In WA state, it is ten years. I'd have to be dead not to notice that.


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## Mike in Ohio

elkhound said:


> no mike you missed my point..do you know the laws of texas? i use to travel a lot..i mean a lot to hunt and fish when i was younger..i kept myself up to date on the states i hunted in laws...not now as i dont travel.....there are/were states with absentee landowner laws...if property was not posted by legal methods under method prescribed by the law then anyone could hunt and fish on that land.
> 
> i dont know texas laws but if they have absentee land owner law then the neighbors property is fair game if not posted....like i said....IF...IF..thats the law there as i dont know its laws there in texas.


elkhound,

There is the law and there is what's right. It doesn't take very much effort to reach out to the owner of the property. If a neighbor takes advantage of a neighbor, whether through a legalism, by simply ignoring the law or not treating the neighbor right, what sort of neighbor are they? How many people would want a person like that as a neighbor? How many people would be able to trust a neighbor like that.

My original post and follow up was about what is right in dealing with your neighbors, not necessarily just what is law. 

But if we are going to talk about hunting laws in TX, it is easy enough to look up: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/regulat...eneral-regulations/laws-penalties-restitution

And in fact we immediately find this:

"It is unlawful to: ... fish on privately owned waters, fish in public water from private land, or hunt on privately owned lands without the permission of the owner or the owner's agent."

There is some additional verbage further down the page about posting, fencing, marking with paint but it does not say the property owner is required to do so. But again, why wouldn't you ask permission if it is a 10 acre adjacent parcel and you wish to hunt rabbits?


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## Mike in Ohio

Some might think the back and forth about trespassing and poaching is off topic from the original thread but it really isn't when you think about it. When folks are without an income or the means to sustain themselves on their own place, some will naturally turn their eyes to their neighbors place and their neighbors possessions. 

I'm sure that some portion of the folks impacted by unemployment benefits not being extended will turn their thoughts to alternate ways of taking care of themselves and theirs. Some might say a person needs to do what they need to do. The person it is done to might have a different opinion. 

A person can justify to themselves just about anything if they try hard enough.


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## partndn

Mike in Ohio said:


> I only know you by what you post here Ernie. If a man proclaims himself a poacher who am I to disagree with him. I don't care enough about you personally to dislike you. You are a person on the internet who posts about themselves. That is an invitation for people to respond to your posts about yourself. It is unrealistic for you to demand that only people who believe it is ok to poach on neighboring properties to respond.
> 
> Truth is an absolute defense against slander Ernie. Anyone on this forum can read what you wrote and determine for themselves what they think of those who go on other peoples land without permission and poach.
> 
> *I, for one, did not interpret this particular situation as poaching, or a situation that would bother me. Even clearer after the details Ernie gave.*
> 
> 
> Please tell us all what exactly is my deceitful ploy? You wrote that you go on your neighbors property and poach. You justified this because you clean up some trash that gets washed down on your property from his as well as the fact that the owners don't reside on the property.
> 
> 
> 
> Your understanding? Your justification. If and when it goes up for auction then you have the same right as anyone else to bid on it.
> 
> 
> 
> All you had to do was say "Please give me the name and address that the tax bills are sent to". By your own words you contacted the county about getting compensated, not about getting permission to hunt on their property. By my reckoning that doesn't fall under the definition of neighborly. If I see trash in the roadside ditch on the road where our farm is I don't keep a tally of what I pick up or what my neighbor picks up. My perspective is a lot less legalistic than yours - I've never approached the government about how I could bill my neighbor for picking up trash from a roadside ditch.
> 
> *What???? :stars: This proves real clear you didn't read what he wrote. It's obvious you read his post with your own thoughts over top of the actual words. Geez. The COUNTY guy told Ernie he should bill them for cleaning up! Not why he went there. *
> 
> 
> Now I understand. You are looking out for their interests and watching over their property on their behalf. Sometimes folks quote the bible in threads like this. One of the Ten Commandments comes to mind: &#8216;And you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field,"
> 
> 
> 
> Avert your eyes or don't avert your eyes, that is up to you. Shoot a rabbit or don't shoot a rabbit, that is up to you. Appoint yourself guardian of someone elses property or not as you will. At the end of the day you are not my neighbor so it is ultimately not my problem to deal with.
> 
> At the end of the day it is between you, the owners of the neighboring property and your conscience. I choose to respect my neighbors property just as I expect them to respect mine. I view disrespecting my neighbors property rights as if I were disrespecting my neighbors.
> 
> Seems as if I've touched a nerve so I'm going to give it a rest now.
> 
> Good luck in your relations with your neighbors.


Bolded above is mine.
This is so stupid. 
I'll go right out here and say I would take me a rabbit from time to time too. That ain't property damage to me when you're talkin bout abandoned land.
You've contradicted yourself by saying you only know about Ernie what you have read on here. 
Well... if true, I have no idea why you would suspect any foul play or damage or wrongdoing by what he said. All of y'all jacked up about it have taken it ridiculously far, without any intelligence to what you should know about him. 

And by the way, you have never read other members here post about going to their property 10 hours away and finding they just didn't see enough bunny turds to indicate the whole 127 rabbits still exist.  Yes, based on what we saw, I think 2 of the 127 rabbits we assumed were living exactly within our property lines must be gone! Gasp!
You read about them saying "I went to my place and found my fences broken and 4 wheeler tracks." "I discovered a couple deer stands up in some trees." "I found 3 cases worth of beer cans and remnants of a bonfire when I was walkin my land."

For pete's sake :bash: :facepalm:


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## raybait1

The term "poaching" was likely made up by some narcissist long ago who claimed himself ruler and owner over everything. The peasants shall not hunt my fowl!


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## elkhound

raybait1 said:


> The term "poaching" was likely made up by some narcissist long ago who claimed himself ruler and owner over everything. The peasants shall not hunt my fowl!


straight from the kings court...in u.k. the term poacher is a badge of honor.....but like some have said we aint in the u.k....but this is world wide web and i know some from u.k. that read here....:shrug::teehee::whistlin:


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## Ernie

elkhound said:


> straight from the kings court...in u.k. the term poacher is a badge of honor.....but like some have said we aint in the u.k....but this is world wide web and i know some from u.k. that read here....:shrug::teehee::whistlin:


I use the term poacher because, to the government, that's what I am.

They lay claim to everything that walks, crawls, swims or flies and then force you to buy a license from them to be able to hunt them.

When I kill a rabbit on my own land ... to the government, I'm poaching. When I kill one on my absentee neighbor's land, I'm poaching. When I kill one on the property of the other neighbor who gave me permission, I'm poaching.

Because I refuse to buy licenses and permits from the state.

Doesn't matter if I club that rabbit to death in my living room ... I'm poaching.


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## elkhound

Ernie said:


> I use the term poacher because, to the government, that's what I am.
> 
> They lay claim to everything that walks, crawls, swims or flies and then force you to buy a license from them to be able to hunt them.
> 
> When I kill a rabbit on my own land ... to the government, I'm poaching. When I kill one on my absentee neighbor's land, I'm poaching. When I kill one on the property of the other neighbor who gave me permission, I'm poaching.
> 
> Because I refuse to buy licenses and permits from the state.
> 
> Doesn't matter if I club that rabbit to death in my living room ... I'm poaching.



my state views me as an elitist landowner type and i can do as i please as long as i abide by their limits and regs....no license required.

its a tough life but somebody's got to do it....lol..i sit in my lazy boy chair and tell myself i am emporer of shangri-la empire....all 20 acres of it...roflmao..i am looking for a woods wench with a heard of goats and sheep to help me rule this empire...lol...see one on the road tell her to call collect please....lol

p.s. tell her to bring her own rifle i dont share rifles....everybody has to draw the line somewhere.


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## unregistered5595

Ernie said:


> I use the term poacher because, to the government, that's what I am.
> 
> They lay claim to everything that walks, crawls, swims or flies and then force you to buy a license from them to be able to hunt them.
> 
> When I kill a rabbit on my own land ... to the government, I'm poaching. When I kill one on my absentee neighbor's land, I'm poaching. When I kill one on the property of the other neighbor who gave me permission, I'm poaching.
> 
> Because I refuse to buy licenses and permits from the state.
> 
> Doesn't matter if I club that rabbit to death in my living room ... I'm poaching.


I get this. If MY chicken carps out an egg on my neighbors property and I take it, it is poaching. If HIS chicken carps out an egg on my property and I take it, it is poaching. If MY chicken carps out an egg on my property and I take it, it is poaching.
If I take those eggs and boil some water with vinegar, swirl the water and put the eggs in it, until the yolk is runny but the white is cooked, I'm poaching eggs. Those would essentially be double poached eggs. Fines and jail time would be doubled.


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## AngieM2

Just to let EVERYONE know. I just read thru the last two pages of this thread, and most of the posts will soon be disappearing as many of them constitute personal attack.


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## partndn

I'm tired of trying to corral the remedial reading comprehension class.
All while a fiction piece all its own unfolds..


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## elkhound

brighton if you dont pay taxes on land the county sends a notice out after the set time and they sell it at public auction on the court house steps.

my cousin just bought a place here this summer that way.

if you dont pay taxes you dont own it after certain amount of time..the state does...you do realize that dont you..be it right or wrong.then they sell it to high bidder on advertised day of sale.

i think here its 5 years on taxes.


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## AngieM2

Now I'm going to have a rant!

I understood what this thread was about, but today, it has turned into a lets bash Ernie thread. And it's caused the few members that view that as a hobby to jump on board, and LIKE like crazy. 

I am extremely disappointed in seeing who was involved in this tear down of a member, which is against the rules of this site. But I was not at all surprised to see who hung around and did the LIKE feature to egg things on and show their approval of tearing down another member.

What the heck were you thinking? You do NOT tear down another member. And I don't let you get away with all that in this forum.


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## Brighton

elkhound said:


> brighton if you dont pay taxes on land the county sends a notice out after the set time and they sell it at public auction on the court house steps.
> 
> my cousin just bought a place here this summer that way.
> 
> if you dont pay taxes you dont own it after certain amount of time..the state does...you do realize that dont you..be it right or wrong.then they sell it to high bidder on advertised day of sale.
> 
> i think here its 5 years on taxes.


Elky, my family has lived on my land for for 141 years, I KNOW that! But until the tax sale, the owners own the land, and trespass is trespass!


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## AngieM2

Sorry for those that could be decent or funny in this thread, but it's lived it's usefulness.

It's locked now.


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