# Political correctness overrides self-defense?



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

I heard this story and it went by me because I really didn't care. But I heard a little more and now I'm confused.

Here's one of the headlines for the story http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaafb/florida-state-dismisses-deandre-johnson-after-video-shows-qb-punching-woman/ar-AAcDgas?ocid=mailsignout


_Florida State dismisses De'Andre Johnson after video shows QB punching woman_

Sounds cut and dry doesn't it? Another big bad football superstar abusing a women. Its good that such a thing is handled strongly and swiftly, right? But hold on. . .read the actual article and you discover (emphasis mine):

_Now, the State Attorney's Office released video of the incident, and it shows the 19-year-old Johnson punching her on the left side of her face *after she took a swing at him*._

and 

_The records also state *she raised her knee into his midsection before* trying to punch him._

*State Attorney Willie Meggs said he decided to charge Johnson*

So she tries to knee him in the family jewels then tries to punch him BEFORE he reacted and HE'S the bad guy and gets HIS life ruined? 

I'm sorry it doesn't matter if you do not have Y chromosome nor if you are half the size they are if you attack someone and they should have the full right to defend themselves. Its not like he went off on her and beat her to a pulp. Again from the article:

_. . .the woman suffered bruising near her left eye, swelling of the left cheek and upper lip, and a small cut near the bridge of her nose._

To me this is like getting charged with animal abuse for kicking a dog that was biting your leg because it was a beagle not a rottweiler.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Equality of the sexes... I stand with you on this read the story and seems the video proves who struck and who defended.

Allowing her to get a pass is sexist....I sure hope any who defend her never complain about equal pay for women..or equal opportunity for women..

Double standards are wrong.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

From this ESPN article, it sounds like the family wants him to get straightened out and come back to college football.
*Seminoles dismiss QB De'Andre Johnson after video of altercation surfaces*

July 7, 2015 - College Football Florida State Seminoles

(excerpt) 
Johnson's family has retained prominent criminal defense and trial attorney Jose Baez, who is best known for obtaining an acquittal in the Casey Anthony murder trial in Orlando.
"While it is clear from the video that De'Andre Johnson was not the initial aggressor, his family wants to take the lead in helping him learn and grow from this experience," Baez said Monday in a statement. "He is currently participating in community service and faith-based programs focused on battered women, substance abuse and the empowerment of children.
"De'Andre is extremely embarrassed by this situation and would like to express his heartfelt apologies to everyone, including those who were directly affected, Coach Fisher and his teammates, the entire Florida State University community, as well as his family and friends."
http://espn.go.com/college-football...missed-program-video-shows-striking-woman-bar


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Hey, I support his family in guiding is growth in control and turning the other cheek and I clearly see that the woman did so start the attack. That speak volumes to me in how this was handled by authorities.

Family and friends can expose him to better control but men get abused too.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

gapeach said:


> From this ESPN article, it sounds like the family wants him to get straightened out and come back to college football.
> *Seminoles dismiss QB De'Andre Johnson after video of altercation surfaces*
> 
> July 7, 2015 - College Football Florida State Seminoles
> ...


Even more evidence of how out of control PC is. He was attacked and HE'S to one doing community service. The woman attacked him and HE'S in a program that focuses on battered women. He's defended himself and HE'S the one apologizing. How crazy is that?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

gapeach said:


> From this ESPN article, it sounds like the family wants him to get straightened out and come back to college football.
> *Seminoles dismiss QB De'Andre Johnson after video of altercation surfaces*
> 
> July 7, 2015 - College Football Florida State Seminoles
> ...


Even more evidence of how out of control PC is. He was attacked and HE'S to one doing community service. The woman attacked him and HE'S in a program that focuses on battered women. He's defended himself and HE'S the one apologizing. How crazy is that?

I'd think he'd be retaining a civil lawyer and thinking about suing the woman, the school, the prosecutor and everyone in the chain of command who decided to go after him.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

The fact that she's participated or even initiated the physical altercation, does not excuse him from responsibility for injury. She actually did not hit him. Whether because she was too drunk to aim or pulled her punch, it did not say.
But I also think an added charge of the old kid standby should be applied to her- an additional enhancement of "she started it." A charge of public disturbance with enhancement for her, if it applies.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

watcher said:


> Even more evidence of how out of control PC is. He was attacked and HE'S to one doing community service. The woman attacked him and HE'S in a program that focuses on battered women. He's defended himself and HE'S the one apologizing. How crazy is that?


That would be the statement from his highly paid lawyer. Maybe he can explain why an under age college freshman was in the bar drinking in the first place. Maybe he can explain why the young man was in such a rush to get to the bar that he pushed the woman aside. Maybe he can tell us exactly what was said between the two which prompted her reaction. I'm sure he'll earn his paycheck and rehabilitate this young man's reputation so that he can pursue his dream of earning millions of dollars on Sunday afternoons.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

The video I've seen was fairly brief and shows only a couple seconds but there is no sound and shows nothing that may have lead up to the altercation. 

In my opinion, it seems as though it was edited in length to show what the media and certain lawyers would like us to see or maybe that's the only view available. 

I'm certainly not saying that people don't simply act badly it leads me to wonder if there was some contact prior to the video or perhaps before his hands were shown, they wandered someplace the woman didn't appreciate?

I always question edited video intended to elicit certain emotions, especially when the media is already running with the racist angle.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Straight to men must be touching inappropriate..... seems she was the one...if women want a victim card the best shut up about employment difference... maybe big bad men might harm them by looking at them so let's limit jobs.

She got physical maybe he did not like being touch inappropriately.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I fully agree that he should not have been in the bar and underage drinking. I totally agree to that he should not have hit her.


This QB was not expected to play much if any this year but was projected as a star on the level with Jamus Winston. It is suprising to me that FL State has released him. He is a hot commodity and will go on and play somewhere else.
Jameus got by with anything that he did.

ACC football fan here.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> Straight to men must be touching inappropriate..... seems she was the one...if women want a victim card the best shut up about employment difference... maybe big bad men might harm them by looking at them so let's limit jobs.
> 
> She got physical maybe he did not like being touch inappropriately.


I'm not thoroughly clear about what you mean but I hope that you are not advocating women keep to less pay than men so the men don't get angry.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

kasilofhome said:


> Straight to men must be touching inappropriate..... seems she was the one...if women want a victim card the best shut up about employment difference... maybe big bad men might harm them by looking at them so let's limit jobs.
> 
> She got physical maybe he did not like being touch inappropriately.


It's interesting how you interpreted my comment. Certainly one option could be that his hands might have wandered south but did you also consider that my comment regarding no indication of prior interaction may have also included the fact that maybe at some time earlier in the evening, this gal had made a pass at this poor young man and when he rejected her, she may have had it out for him? Perhaps this mercenary woman situated herself where she knew there would be a camera so she could have it all filmed thus causing him public shame.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

where I want to said:


> The fact that she's participated or even initiated the physical altercation, does not excuse him from responsibility for injury. She actually did not hit him. Whether because she was too drunk to aim or pulled her punch, it did not say.
> But I also think an added charge of the old kid standby should be applied to her- an additional enhancement of "she started it." A charge of public disturbance with enhancement for her, if it applies.


So if someone pulls a gun or knife on you, you can only defend yourself if they actually shoot or cut you? When did this become the standard for self-defense?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

wr said:


> The video I've seen was fairly brief and shows only a couple seconds but there is no sound and shows nothing that may have lead up to the altercation.
> 
> In my opinion, it seems as though it was edited in length to show what the media and certain lawyers would like us to see or maybe that's the only view available.
> 
> ...


I'm sure there's more to the story. But other than a mention of a 'push', which is a legal assault, there is nothing in the story to even start to justify a physical attack on the guy. If someone pushes you then disengages I don't think you can legally attack them. Now if he had kept pushing then it's a different story.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

gapeach said:


> I fully agree that he should not have been in the bar and underage drinking. I totally agree to that he should not have hit her.


So if a man tried to knee you in the crotch then took a swing at you what would you do? Stand there until he managed to actually hit you?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

wr said:


> It's interesting how you interpreted my comment. Certainly one option could be that his hands might have wandered south but did you also consider that my comment regarding no indication of prior interaction may have also included the fact that maybe at some time earlier in the evening, this gal had made a pass at this poor young man and when he rejected her, she may have had it out for him? Perhaps this mercenary woman situated herself where she knew there would be a camera so she could have it all filmed thus causing him public shame.


Inappropriate touching is not limited to inappropriate sexual touching.

Well, could have....seems like assumption of information that was not provided.


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## FutureFarm (Mar 1, 2013)

I'm surprised that people are ok with the outcome of this event. If the sex of the involved parties were reversed would the discourse be different? I bet it would. People would be cheering "her" on for defending "herself" after "he" swung at "her". 
And if the outcome were the same, which I doubt it would be, there'd be tons of people outraged that a woman defending herself against a man is doing community service, and rightly so.
If you want equality between the sexes, this wan has to be charged with assault, and this man should be let go. He acted in self defense, and it looks like he didn't strike back until she attempted a second attack. 
If you want equality of the sexes, sign up for the draft. 
If you want special treatment that's fine. Just ask.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

kasilofhome said:


> Inappropriate touching is not limited to inappropriate sexual touching.
> 
> Well, could have....seems like assumption of information that was not provided.


There was no assumption and that was the point of my post. It's quick to pass judgement on a small segment of video but it doesn't present any dialogue that may have taken place nor does it take into account anything other than that brief encounter. 

I also tend to doubt if the media is correct in their assumption that the woman is just a racist.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

FutureFarm said:


> I'm surprised that people are ok with the outcome of this event. If the sex of the involved parties were reversed would the discourse be different? I bet it would. People would be cheering "her" on for defending "herself" after "he" swung at "her".
> And if the outcome were the same, which I doubt it would be, there'd be tons of people outraged that a woman defending herself against a man is doing community service, and rightly so.
> If you want equality between the sexes, this wan has to be charged with assault, and this man should be let go. He acted in self defense, and it looks like he didn't strike back until she attempted a second attack.
> If you want equality of the sexes, sign up for the draft.
> If you want special treatment that's fine. Just ask.


I can't speak for others but I'm not okay with anything but simply don't find that the brief video tells the story. 

If I were content with the idea that the media or either side of this has presented all the information needed to form an opinion, I would gladly state my opinion but at this moment, there is insufficient evidence for me to form any kind of opinion at all.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

watcher said:


> So if a man tried to knee you in the crotch then took a swing at you what would you do? Stand there until he managed to actually hit you?


You know, not being there and only seeing the video, I did not say anything about her because I could not tell if she was actually trying to hit him in the crotch. I am not excusing her. She was an upper classwoman and he was 18. If she hit him, she should be charged also. I am not taking up for her.
It was up to the law enforcement.
He probably had a priviledged attitude too. I read that he said that she called him the N word. 
http://livenetworknews.com/bz/article/100100100101267480

I don't know why you thought I was excusing her.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

gapeach said:


> You know, not being there and only seeing the video, I did not say anything about her because I could not tell if she was actually trying to hit him in the crotch. I am not excusing her. She was an upper classwoman and he was 18. If she hit him, she should be charged also. I am not taking up for her.
> It was up to the law enforcement.
> He probably had a priviledged attitude too. I read that he said that she called him the N word.
> http://livenetworknews.com/bz/article/100100100101267480


Well that right there should be enough to excuse him not only hitting her but beating her and burning her car, according to some in the PC crowd anyway.




gapeach said:


> I don't know why you thought I was excusing her.


Maybe it was you saying "I totally agree to that he should not have hit her." Again I must ask if someone had just tried to knee you in the crotch then take a swing at you just what would you do?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

watcher said:


> Well that right there should be enough to excuse him not only hitting her but beating her and burning her car, according to some in the PC crowd anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is there no chance that he could have possibly done anything that may make the woman feel the need to defend herself? 

I'm sure there is some chance that she just happened to want to attack the guy for no reason at all but but would you think there also be some slim chance that there is a bit more to the story than a racist woman who attacked a man for no reason other than race in a busy bar?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

wr said:


> Is there no chance that he could have possibly done anything that may make the woman feel the need to defend herself?
> 
> I'm sure there is some chance that she just happened to want to attack the guy for no reason at all but but would you think there also be some slim chance that there is a bit more to the story than a racist woman who attacked a man for no reason other than race in a busy bar?


There's a chance but all the reports reference is he pushed her. I haven't read anything other than that. 

My thoughts are he acted like a jerk and she thought she could get away with hitting because she's a girl. And of course booze was probably involved.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

watcher said:


> There's a chance but all the reports reference is he pushed her. I haven't read anything other than that.
> 
> My thoughts are he acted like a jerk and she thought she could get away with hitting because she's a girl. And of course booze was probably involved.


That's certainly possible when you consider alcohol was being served. 

Since we haven't really heard much information beyond a few details, I would also wonder if there is a past history between the two or something that happened earlier in the evening because both behaviors seemed way to extreme to me to be a misunderstanding over a bump or nudge.

I do believe that it fair that both sides of the story are presented, which will likely happen in court but right now, all we really know for sure is that she did swing and he did too, although he is claiming that she called him a derogatory name as well.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

watcher said:


> Well that right there should be enough to excuse him not only hitting her but beating her and burning her car, according to some in the PC crowd anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


watcher, you must know that I am 74 years old. If it was me and I was in a bar, I would get on my cellphone, call my youngest son, and also my 22 yr old twin grandsons who are both over 6 ft and 200 lbs and tell them where I am , and to get over there. 
If it happened somewhere else, I would call 911.:gaptooth:


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

gapeach said:


> , you must know that I am 74 years old. If it was me and I was in a bar, :



If it was you in that bar I'd offer you a drink , come have a Pepsi with me.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

watcher said:


> So if someone pulls a gun or knife on you, you can only defend yourself if they actually shoot or cut you? When did this become the standard for self-defense?


You've got this wrong, and your gun comment shows why. If she had pulled a gun on him, using deadly force, he could use what ever force and tools he had available to defend himself. On the opposite end of the spectrum, if her attack was only with words, he could defend himself with words but no physical force. 

But the actual events are a bit more in the grey zone because she did use force. She used a feeble amount of force that even if she did her best, would be unlikely to cause serious bodily harm to a young, physically fit man. He could have restrained her by catching or blocking her arms, he could have stepped out of her drunken range, but instead he escalated the amount of force used, enough that could have potentially caused serious injury or death. He escalated it and that is why the law will find him in the wrong.


http://definitions.uslegal.com/u/use-of-deadly-force/
_The use of force is generally illegal unless it fits within the strict requirements of one of the four legal justifications. They are: self-defense, defense of a third person, crime prevention, and law enforcement. Each of these areas has specific requirements that must be met to avoid criminal liability. You may only use the amount of force that is reasonable and necessary in the situation.. This is judged by what a reasonable person would have done under the circumstances. In a self-defense situation, it is only when the aggressor uses or attempts to use deadly force that you have the right to respond with deadly force. _

As an FSU fan, I'm glad they got rid of a guy who is so stupid and undisciplined that he would allow himself to get involved in the first place. If these athletes don't realize by now that this sort of stuff is not going to be tolerated in any way, then they really are too stupid to stay on the team.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

DEKE01 said:


> You've got this wrong, and your gun comment shows why. If she had pulled a gun on him, using deadly force, he could use what ever force and tools he had available to defend himself. On the opposite end of the spectrum, if her attack was only with words, he could defend himself with words but no physical force.
> 
> But the actual events are a bit more in the grey zone because she did use force. She used a feeble amount of force that even if she did her best, would be unlikely to cause serious bodily harm to a young, physically fit man. He could have restrained her by catching or blocking her arms, he could have stepped out of her drunken range, but instead he escalated the amount of force used, enough that could have potentially caused serious injury or death. He escalated it and that is why the law will find him in the wrong.



I disagree. 

First off she had tried to knee him in the crotch. I can tell you it doesn't really take much of a blow there to cause serious bodily harm. Even if it doesn't cause serious bodily harm it could result in him being able to aquatically defend himself from further attacks. One of the reasons that's a target in a fight is to allow you the advantage of a near defenseless opponent. And her follow up attack shows that she was intent on harming him. At that time he had NO IDEA of how far she would go to do that or if she had that ability or not. 

Second, in a self defense situation you don't try to restrain and/or hold you attacker. You try to stop the attack, disengage and seek safety. If possible you do that w/o using force but when you can not you use enough force to make that happen. How much force that is depends on many factors. Plus the rules on that use of force are a lot different with civilians and police officers. If he was a cop then you might have a case that he escalated to an 'unnecessary level on the force continuum'. But a police officer's duty is to stop the attack and apprehend his attacker, a civilian's is protect himself and to stop the attack.

Third, the fact that her injuries were relativity light show, to me, he didn't even put full power behind the punch. Quaterbacks may not be the strong guys on a football team but they have plenty of upper body strength to inflict a lot of damage with a fist to the face.

With those facts everything should be fine. According to the reports she physically attacked him twice with her bare hands and he responded with just enough of an unarmed defense to allow him to disengage and escape. If he had held her and repeatedly punched her or knocked her to the ground and started kicking her there might be a case. You might, just might, have a case if he had broken bones or knocked out some teeth.




DEKE01 said:


> http://definitions.uslegal.com/u/use-of-deadly-force/
> _The use of force is generally illegal unless it fits within the strict requirements of one of the four legal justifications. They are: self-defense, defense of a third person, crime prevention, and law enforcement. Each of these areas has specific requirements that must be met to avoid criminal liability. You may only use the amount of force that is reasonable and necessary in the situation.. This is judged by what a reasonable person would have done under the circumstances. In a self-defense situation, it is only when the aggressor uses or attempts to use deadly force that you have the right to respond with deadly force. _


Sorry to pick nits here but I do believe you are wrong there. In most states being in fear for a life is not the only time you are allowed to use deadly force. AFAIK, every state allows the use of deadly force if you fear 'grievous bodily harm'. 




DEKE01 said:


> As an FSU fan, I'm glad they got rid of a guy who is so stupid and undisciplined that he would allow himself to get involved in the first place. If these athletes don't realize by now that this sort of stuff is not going to be tolerated in any way, then they really are too stupid to stay on the team.


You are kidding right? History has shown if you are good enough all you have to do is say "I'm sorry and I'm seeking treatment." and you'll be back in no time. And if its true she use the infamous "N-word" all he has to do is play the race card.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

I saw the video, and I think community service is less than he deserves. I think it's pretty simple. Hard to say what happened with that little shuffle at the bar. They were both trying to win the race there. We don't know what she was saying. We don't know if she was moving to the left or if he's forcing his way past her and that's why her leg moves sideways. 

In the eyes of the law, none of that really matters. She turned around and put her left forearm up to control her space and speak her mind. She held her right fist up defensively, not offensively; at worst it was a threat of retaliation. This is important. She didn't put her hands on him yet... HE grabbed her arms forcefully, so HE initiated the contact, which is illegal no matter what someone says to you, and on top of that he refused to let go and shoved her backward. She kicked and punched defensively, which anyone should do when someone with no authority grabs your arms and starts controlling you. Being the sort of guy he is, he went for a knockout punch on someone who pretty obviously can't do much damage.

Poor oppressed college football player....

[YOUTUBE]8NgTGKeYtSw[/YOUTUBE]


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Sorry, didn't see this one, when I started another thread:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/specialty-forums/general-chat/540608-throw-first-punch.html

I have been pwned!


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

wiscto said:


> I saw the video, and I think community service is less than he deserves. I think it's pretty simple. Hard to say what happened with that little shuffle at the bar. They were both trying to win the race there. We don't know what she was saying. We don't know if she was moving to the left or if he's forcing his way past her and that's why her leg moves sideways.
> 
> In the eyes of the law, none of that really matters. She turned around and put her left forearm up to control her space and speak her mind. She held her right fist up defensively, not offensively; at worst it was a threat of retaliation. This is important. She didn't put her hands on him yet... HE grabbed her arms forcefully, so HE initiated the contact, which is illegal no matter what someone says to you, and on top of that he refused to let go and shoved her backward. She kicked and punched defensively, which anyone should do when someone with no authority grabs your arms and starts controlling you. Being the sort of guy he is, he went for a knockout punch on someone who pretty obviously can't do much damage.
> 
> ...


Ever been in a fight?

Not the ones you were in back in the sixth grade, but a fight between two adults? It ain't pretty and it ain't fair. And both generally walk away hurt, especially if it's two men.

This guy is a college athlete at a Div I school. I promise you he can bench well over two hundred pounds and being a QB, is an exceptional all around athlete, which means he has quickness to go with the power.

He could have put her lights out at the drop of a hat. If not with the first blow, then surely by the second or third.

But he didn't. And even the initial blow is not delivered as hard as it could have been. That shows some restraint (albeit not much) and more of a "get off of me", than "I'm going to knock your head off".

Heck, the bartender barely looked up...If this kid had not been a football player at a major football college, this wouldn't have been blown into what it has become.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Just be question, if this had been another man, smaller stature would it have turned out with the same attitude toward the football player?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Is there no chance that he could have possibly done anything that may make the woman feel the need to defend herself?


It appeared to me he pushed her out of the way to get to the bar, and then got in her face 

He got what he deserved


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It appeared to me he pushed her out of the way to get to the bar, and then got in her face
> 
> He got what he deserved


Remind of that, next time somebody bumps into my car in a parking lot, and I bust a couple of 9's in their chest.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

watcher said:


> I disagree.
> With those facts everything should be fine.
> 
> 
> ...


History is changing. Ask Ray Rice. Ask Adrian Peterson. FSU got fed up with J Winston and wants no part of a new problem child. I can understand why they felt a need to cut him fast. The kid athletes are going to have to grow up faster and learn the new standards.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jolly said:


> Remind of that, next time somebody bumps into my car in a parking lot, and I bust a couple of 9's in their chest.


That seems as irrational as his reaction, and you might get to be his cell mate


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That seems as irrational as his reaction, and you might get to be his cell mate


No, but it is as irrational as this kid's punishment.

One of the bedrocks of being American (or so I've been lectured _ad infinitum, ad nauseum_ over the gay marriage issue), is that everybody is equal. If that be the case, why are Ray Rice, Peterson or this kid being treated any better, or any worse, than Joe Schmitt the junkman from down the street?

Are all kids who engage in a bar scuffle fined $1,000,000?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Jolly said:


> No, but it is as irrational as this kid's punishment.
> 
> One of the bedrocks of being American (or so I've been lectured _ad infinitum, ad nauseum_ over the gay marriage issue), is that everybody is equal. If that be the case, why are Ray Rice, Peterson or this kid being treated any better, or any worse, than Joe Schmitt the junkman from down the street?
> 
> Are all kids who engage in a bar scuffle fined $1,000,000?


That kid has a contract with certain conditions he must follow. He punished himself. The bigger the payoff the bigger the repercussions.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jolly said:


> No, but it is as irrational as this kid's punishment.
> 
> One of the bedrocks of being American (or so I've been lectured _ad infinitum, ad nauseum_ over the gay marriage issue), is that everybody is equal. If that be the case, why are Ray Rice, Peterson or this kid being treated any better, or any worse, than Joe Schmitt the junkman from down the street?
> 
> Are all kids who engage in a bar scuffle fined $1,000,000?


He hasn't been "fined" anything, so let's just stick to reality instead of the fantasy scenarios

He made the first contact, and was too stupid to just say he was sorry and walk away


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

I imagine both should be charged with something. However, I have problem with him slugging her! He could have easily controlled her without that punch!


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Jolly said:


> Ever been in a fight?
> 
> Not the ones you were in back in the sixth grade, but a fight between two adults? It ain't pretty and it ain't fair. And both generally walk away hurt, especially if it's two men.
> 
> ...


Maybe where you're from... He was a young, stupid 19 year old kid in a bar, he reacted when he shouldn't have; he put his hands on someone and she defended herself, community service won't prove that point enough. But he's been kicked off the FSU football team from what I've heard, so there's that.

Anyway. I think it's weird when people ask me questions like that on the internet. You ask me about fighting under the presumption that you know more, but you don't require yourself to provide evidence or explain yourself and you seem to think that you know the answer before you know anything about me. Not that I care. I've never needed to talk about how tough I am or how many fights I've won. 

I do know why you hit someone where he hit her, though. The neck muscles that stop your head from tipping side to side aren't very strong. When you get hit in the lower jaw, someone is basically trying to slam the lever that makes your head wobble. The faster a fist is moving, the faster the head moves, the more violently the brain slams into the inside of the skull. That's why you hit someone there. Also, the fact that their head will turn and give way means that you're less likely to hurt your own hand.

He went for the quick sucker punch chin music knockout and then ran away like a little punk before everyone else could react, and he was likely trying to get out of there before the cops showed up. He should have known better and he didn't. Keep your hands to yourself. Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. Pretty simple rules, and everyone absolutely should be required to behave better than 6th graders. That's why we have different courts for juveniles.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Interesting conversations going on here. Lots of "perhaps", "maybe", "might have" and "probably". All I see in the video as far as an initial assault was her going after him. What happened before nobody knows for sure.

When my 1st wife had too much to drink, and got mad, she was absolutely certain she could beat the stuffing out of me. She was 5'4"/130#, I'm 6'3"/200#. I'd hold her arms together at the wrists, and tell her to calm down - which just made her madder. I'd hold her like that until she calmed down, maybe 4-5 minutes. Didn't always work. One time when I let her go she threw a phone at me and broke a bone in my arm when I fended it off. I never hit her, but boy I wanted to. She was a really nice gal, sober.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Interesting conversations going on here. Lots of "perhaps", "maybe", "might have" and "probably". All I see in the video as far as an initial assault was her going after him. What happened before nobody knows for sure.


LOL come on.... Holding your forearm out and holding your fist back behind your head, not doing anything, is not "going after" someone. She was jabberin', yea, but you can't grab someone's arms and manhandle them. When you do, they have a right to punch and kick. Her attitude doesn't absolve him.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Jolly said:


> No, but it is as irrational as this kid's punishment.
> 
> One of the bedrocks of being American (or so I've been lectured _ad infinitum, ad nauseum_ over the gay marriage issue), is that everybody is equal. If that be the case, why are Ray Rice, Peterson or this kid being treated any better, or any worse, than Joe Schmitt the junkman from down the street?
> 
> Are all kids who engage in a bar scuffle fined $1,000,000?


If it were a gov't issued punishment, I would agree with you. But the NFL and FSU have a right to their (marred) reputations and opinions and to terminate a business relationship with anyone who causes them pain, real or imagined.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> He hasn't been "fined" anything, so let's just stick to reality instead of the fantasy scenarios
> 
> He made the first contact, and was too stupid to just say he was sorry and walk away


The worth of a college education is in excess of $1,000,000. He *had* a free college education.

Today, he does not.

Play semantics all you wish, the fact is that his money has just been curtailed. Severely.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

wiscto said:


> Maybe where you're from... He was a young, stupid 19 year old kid in a bar, he reacted when he shouldn't have; he put his hands on someone and she defended herself, community service won't prove that point enough. But he's been kicked off the FSU football team from what I've heard, so there's that.
> 
> Anyway. I think it's weird when people ask me questions like that on the internet. You ask me about fighting under the presumption that you know more, but you don't require yourself to provide evidence or explain yourself and you seem to think that you know the answer before you know anything about me. Not that I care. I've never needed to talk about how tough I am or how many fights I've won.
> 
> ...


It's impossible to sucker punch somebody who has already hit you. Twice.

I've knocked a grown man out. Three times, in fact. To be honest, I never thought about the physics at the time...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jolly said:


> The worth of a college education is in excess of $1,000,000. He *had* a free college education.
> 
> Today, he does not.
> 
> Play semantics all you wish, the fact is that his money has just been curtailed. Severely.


That's all due to his own actions and is not a "fine".
Why are you defending a punk who thinks it's OK to punch a woman?

Also, your $1 million "worth" is just another fabrication.

It doesn't cost a million to go to school, and he is still free to pay for his own education like the majority of students


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

wiscto said:


> I saw the video, and I think community service is less than he deserves. I think it's pretty simple. Hard to say what happened with that little shuffle at the bar. They were both trying to win the race there. We don't know what she was saying. We don't know if she was moving to the left or if he's forcing his way past her and that's why her leg moves sideways.
> 
> In the eyes of the law, none of that really matters. She turned around and put her left forearm up to control her space and speak her mind. She held her right fist up defensively, not offensively; at worst it was a threat of retaliation. This is important. She didn't put her hands on him yet... HE grabbed her arms forcefully, so HE initiated the contact, which is illegal no matter what someone says to you, and on top of that he refused to let go and shoved her backward. She kicked and punched defensively, which anyone should do when someone with no authority grabs your arms and starts controlling you. Being the sort of guy he is, he went for a knockout punch on someone who pretty obviously can't do much damage.
> 
> Poor oppressed college football player....


Say you are trying to reach the bar in a crowd and bumped into someone. That person pushed back then turn quickly with a raised fist. What would you think they were planning on doing? 


Here's what I see.

13 seconds or so he is trying to get to the bar and bumps into her then she pushes her shoulder into him. Aggressive move or just irritation? Hard to tell at this time but her actions later suggest it was aggressive. 

words are exchanged 

16 seconds she turns around with her right hand raised in a fist and puts her forearm in his chest. A reasonable man would see that as a threat.

17 seconds he grabs her right wrist. That's the one with the fist raised. You do not have to wait until you are hit before you defend yourself. Grabbing the arm of someone who is threatening you is self defense not assault. 

More words are exchanged

20 seconds she kicks at him. Again aggression or irritation at being held, hard to tell but again she is the one who first assumed a threatening posture.

22 seconds she hits him. Note she does not try to hit him but hits him in the face. Watch her fist and how his head moves.

22.5 seconds he hits her and leaves.

In a span of less than 10 seconds he goes from faced a threatening gesture to being hit in the face. He reacts by hitting his attacker. Sounds like something a reasonable man would do to me.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It appeared to me he pushed her out of the way to get to the bar, and then got in her face
> 
> He got what he deserved


Watch it again and watch it closely. You'll note that when he first approaches the bar there's another woman in front of him. He appears to speak to her (asking her to move to allow him to reach the bar?) That lady moves and in the process the blond looks over her shoulder at him and seems to lean back into him. The lady he spoke to first moves opening a spot at the bar. Now watch what the blond does specifically her leg. She moves toward the open spot and looks to put her left leg between him and the bar. When he tries to get to the open spot she turns to him and not only 'gets in his face' but raises a fist.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

po boy said:


> I imagine both should be charged with something. However, I have problem with him slugging her! He could have easily controlled her without that punch!


Ever been in a bar fight? He could have easily been mobbed by several of her friends while trying to control her. But as I said he went from trying to get to the bar to being punched in the face in 10 seconds.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

wiscto said:


> LOL come on.... Holding your forearm out and holding your fist back behind your head, not doing anything, is not "going after" someone. She was jabberin', yea, but you can't grab someone's arms and manhandle them. When you do, they have a right to punch and kick. Her attitude doesn't absolve him.


Tell you what try sticking your forearm into the chest and holding your fist behind your head the next time you are confronted by a cop and see what happens and what you get charged with.

Any reasonable man would see an angry person raising a fist into the 'cocked' position as a threatening gesture. 

Watch the video frame by frame and watch each of their actions. You'll note he didn't push the woman that was actually between him and the bar out of his way. What makes you see him pushing the blond? Watch her when the first lady moves, she actually seems to move to block his access to the bar.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

This is not about him hitting the girl. It is a combination of things including underage drinking and a physical fight that puts him in a bad light and not wanted by the team.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> What makes you see him pushing the blond? Watch her when the first lady moves, she actually seems to move to block his access to the bar.


So your theory is she randomly decided to attack a football player for wanting to order a drink? 



> Any *reasonable man *would see an angry person raising a fist into the 'cocked' position as a threatening gesture.


A reasonable man would say he shouldn't have hit the woman


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

watcher said:


> Ever been in a bar fight? He could have easily been mobbed by several of her friends while trying to control her. But as I said he went from trying to get to the bar to being punched in the face in 10 seconds.


Nope. Have been in *too many* bars never felt the need to be in a bar fight!


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Jolly said:


> It's impossible to sucker punch somebody who has already hit you. Twice.
> 
> *I've knocked a grown man out. Three times, in fact. To be honest, I never thought about the physics at the time...*


Oh that's mighty clever of you. I'm sure he doesn't know the physics of it either. But somebody taught him where to punch, and THAT is why you punch someone in the jaw. Thanks for your resume'. I'm not impressed.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

watcher said:


> Tell you what try sticking your forearm into the chest and holding your fist behind your head the next time you are confronted by a cop and see what happens and what you get charged with.
> 
> Any reasonable man would see an angry person raising a fist into the 'cocked' position as a threatening gesture.
> 
> Watch the video frame by frame and watch each of their actions. You'll note he didn't push the woman that was actually between him and the bar out of his way. What makes you see him pushing the blond? Watch her when the first lady moves, she actually seems to move to block his access to the bar.


Like I said. It really doesn't matter. She was behaving badly, yup, I agree. She was mad because someone was shoving his shoulder into her back. Maybe he'd done it to her a couple times already. Maybe she was just mouthy and he was tired of it so he wanted to antagonize her. Maybe she was setting him up. Maybe they already hated each other. *It doesn't matter.*

What matters is that she had one arm out defensively, one hand back behind her ear. You can't grab someone's arms when they aren't really attacking you. And I'm sorry, but if you're all going to talk to me about fights like you know, and then tell me that that woman looked like she "attacking" when she first turned around, you're all crazy. That wouldn't have made me nervous on my worst day. 

You can talk about fights, but I worked in the system for two years. I know where the line is. Her behavior, depending on witnesses' statements, may have contributed to him getting community service. I can understand that argument even if I don't agree with it. But I'm not buying your spin, guys. The kid blew it. He punched her because he wanted to. He could have gotten out of that situation without escalating it, and that's what society expects. Even if y'all don't like it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Watch it again and watch it closely.


I saw the first contact, as did you:



> Here's what I see.
> 
> 13 seconds or so he is trying to get to the bar and* bumps into her *then she pushes her shoulder into him.


It looked intentional to me, and it seems she thought so too

You aren't going to convince me she decided to attack someone larger than herself for a "bump", and you aren't going to convince me he was right to punch her.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

wiscto said:


> Oh that's mighty clever of you. I'm sure he doesn't know the physics of it either. But somebody taught him where to punch, and THAT is why you punch someone in the jaw. Thanks for your resume'. I'm not impressed.


I'm sure he attended "punching school". :thumb:

Now, let me tell you how to do it, without benefit of physics.

Knock the opposite ear off the head. See, isn't that simple? To knock a man out, you have to have enough punching power and you have to follow through. Too many people short stroke their punch and while it can be effective, it won't put somebody out like a light. In the referenced video, the guy definitely wasn't going for the KO.

And I'm not clever. I've just been there a time or two, and I really don't care if you're impressed with my resume or not. It is what it is. Every scar I've got, I earned it.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's all due to his own actions and is not a "fine".
> Why are you defending a punk who thinks it's OK to punch a woman?
> 
> Also, your $1 million "worth" is just another fabrication.
> ...


A college graduate will make $1M more than a high school graduate in his lifetime (go look it up, it ain't hard). Ergo, for a poor kid (which most black athletes are), throwing him off the team just cost him $1,000,000, since I seriously doubt he has the funds to attend on his own.

I don't see how you can extrapolate it any other way...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jolly said:


> A college graduate will make $1M more than a high school graduate in his lifetime (go look it up, it ain't hard). Ergo, for a poor kid (which most black athletes are), throwing him off the team just cost him $1,000,000, since I seriously doubt he has the funds to attend on his own.
> 
> I don't see how you can extrapolate it any other way...


I've heard your spin several times

Nothing is preventing him fron getting a degree.

He will just be paying for it instead of playing for it.

It's his problem, caused by his actions


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You aren't going to convince me she decided to attack someone larger than herself for a "bump", and you aren't going to convince me he was right to punch her.


I've never, ever hit a woman but I've got no problem with someone else defending themselves. As far as not being convinced someone her size wouldn't attack someone his size, you didn't read my post above. I'm easily as big, and back then probably as strong, as him. You might be surprised how many "little" guys get drunk and decide to take on the big guy.

I owned a private club in Dallas for about 2 years. Yep, women can be meaner than a snake, and I've seen them go after husbands, boyfriends, other women, and the poor sap who tries to break it up.

ETA: Ever think maybe she felt brave because the PC world we live in doesn't allow a man to defend himself? I guess she just picked a student who hadn't been to Gender Studies class yet.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I've heard your spin several times
> 
> Nothing is preventing him for getting a degree.
> 
> ...


Horatio Alger stories aside, do you now what is the likelihood of a poor black man graduating from college, on his own nickel? I'm guessing pretty durn slim...


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> So your theory is she randomly decided to attack a football player for wanting to order a drink?


I have no theory why she decided to act like a jerk, but its fairly clearly shown in the tape that's just what she did. Just watch the tape and see that she was clearly the aggressor. Watch her closely. She first looks over her right shoulder and sees him. Then she moves into his path. Then she turns and makes what anyone would call an aggressive move, i.e. making a fist and 'cocking' her arm. Anyone will tell that is a prelude to a strike. When that strike is blocked she then switches to a kick/knee strike and when that fails she hits him with her free hand. It was only after he was hit that he punched her.

Now watch his action before she turns on him. When he first approaches the bar there is a woman standing directly in front of him and between him and the bar. Does push her out of the way? Does he even try to slide by her? Or does he stand there until she moves then try to reach the bar. You think in the few seconds between the time that woman moved and he took a step or to forward he became so angry at not being able to reach the bar he was ready to punch anyone who got into his way? What reason would he have for calmly waiting for one woman to move but feel the need to attack another? If he's such a violent person why didn't he punch the lady the second she threatened him with a raised fist? Why didn't he punch her when she tried to kick/knee him? Why did he wait until AFTER he had been punched in the fact before he struck her.




Bearfootfarm said:


> A reasonable man would say he shouldn't have hit the woman


How many times would your reasonable man have to be punched in the face before he would have hit her? Do women get one free shot? Two? Do they in fact have to draw blood before a man has the right to defend himself?

If you don't want to be hit don't threaten someone then hit them first. 

I guess he didn't have to hit her. He could have spun her around and choked her out. Or twisted her right arm around until he gave her a spiral fracture. Or pulled her forward with her arm and drove his forehead into her nose. Or one of the many other things a truly violent person would have done in a bar fight. But hey he's only 19 give him a few years to really learn how do do it right. Yeah, I wasn't always a nice Christian guy so I've seen a thing or two that people who like to fight do in a bar fight. AAMOF, I had a couple of buddies who worked their way though college as bouncers and I'd go watch them work from time to time, so I got to see a lot of action like that.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Jolly said:


> I'm sure he attended "punching school". :thumb:
> 
> Now, let me tell you how to do it, without benefit of physics.
> 
> ...


I never said he was good. But he certainly tried. He went for speed not power, but he sure tried to follow through..and by the way...speed is good for a knockout. Now that I'm looking at it, he sucks more than I thought. He didn't throw it very straight, too much action at the tail end...probably because he was trying to make her head spin instead of just landing the punch...which also redirected him a little too high...and his eyes were closed.... But he tried. And then he ran to get away from the law.

*And by the way, whether he went for the knockout or not, the reality is that he was still wrong. You know that, that's why you're dragging this into the "was it a knockout punch though..." debate. You can't grab someone by the wrists/arms/hands when they aren't physically assaulting you. You can't manhandle them. They CAN punch you for it. You CAN'T punch back, because you were the aggressor in the first place. That's really all there is to it. *


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

po boy said:


> Nope. Have been in *too many* bars never felt the need to be in a bar fight!


You must not have been in the 'right' kind of bars. Heck I have never drank, too many alcoholics in my family, but I saw many of fights and been involved it a few in my younger foolish days.

BTW, I never understood the logic of putting a pool table in a bar. Drinking and competing often lead to angry arguments and providing angry drunks with heavy sticks to wallop each other with just seems stupid to me. Very dense spherical missiles can cause a lot of damage as well. 

A dart board maybe but a pool table?!?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jolly said:


> Horatio Alger stories aside, do you now what is the likelihood of a poor black man graduating from college, on his own nickel? I'm guessing pretty durn slim...


That's his problem alone.
He should have stopped to think about it before being so stupid.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> How many times would your reasonable man have to be punched in the face before he would have hit her?


A real man would have walked away


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

wiscto said:


> Oh that's mighty clever of you. I'm sure he doesn't know the physics of it either. But somebody taught him where to punch, and THAT is why you punch someone in the jaw. Thanks for your resume'. I'm not impressed.


Did I miss something? Looked to me he came OVER her arm and hit her high in the face. And IIRC the police report said she had marks around her eye. Kind of hard to do that with a punch to the jaw.

Also she never went down. She buckled a bit but never staggered. After the hit she was perfectly able to stand on her own w/o support from the bar or someone to hold her. When you are hit hard enough that your brain sloshes around you don't usually remain upright much less stand steady. Talk to a boxer about it.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

watcher said:


> Did I miss something? Looked to me he came OVER her arm and hit her high in the face. And IIRC the police report said she had marks around her eye. Kind of hard to do that with a punch to the jaw.
> 
> Also she never went down. She buckled a bit but never staggered. After the hit she was perfectly able to stand on her own w/o support from the bar or someone to hold her. When you are hit hard enough that your brain sloshes around you don't usually remain upright much less stand steady. Talk to a boxer about it.


OKAY you guys got me. I watched it again, he got her eye. You're right bro. But guess what...

As I've said several times in this thread, to clear the delusion, *you cant' grab someone's wrists and control them when all they're doing is talking. Her arm was out...she didn't do squat with it. Her fist was back. She didn't do squat with it. He grabbed her arms and manhandled her, at which point SHE was the one who acted in self defense. He wast he aggressor, which means that his punch was NOT self defense. *


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

watcher said:


> BTW, I never understood the logic of putting a pool table in a bar. Drinking and competing often lead to angry arguments and providing angry drunks with heavy sticks to wallop each other with just seems stupid to me. Very dense spherical missiles can cause a lot of damage as well.
> 
> A dart board maybe but a pool table?!?


I made nearly as much money off the pool tables as the drinks. If you've got poor shooters, not so much, but a half dozen sharks keep those coin slots moving.

I've been in way too many bars in my life, and never seen anyone use pool equipment as a weapon. Beer pitchers, bottles, stools, chairs yes, even another patron a couple times. Can't tell you why, it seems like a natural.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

wiscto said:


> What matters is that she had one arm out defensively, one hand back behind her ear. You can't grab someone's arms when they aren't really attacking you.


I have to say I disagree. You do NOT have to wait until you are attacked before you can defend yourself. If you are clearly angry and draw your hand back in a threaten manner the person facing you now may feel threatened. That is the standard for self defense. He's action of taking away her ability to throw a punch was a self defense move. He could have went on guard and wait for her to strike and try to block the blow but I do not think that is a legal requirement.

Think about it. Someone tells you they are going to punch you in the nose and draws their hand back. Are you going to wait until they start swinging before you react?




wiscto said:


> And I'm sorry, but if you're all going to talk to me about fights like you know, and then tell me that that woman looked like she "attacking" when she first turned around, you're all crazy.


Really? Watch the video. She turned around with her fist up. She didn't turn around and have words with him THEN draw her fist back. She was ready to strike immediately. This also shows her to be the aggressor unless you can show that he did something to provoke her before she turned.

Plus watch her actions BEFORE she turns. Notice two things in the tape. One she looks over her right shoulder and it looks to me she sees him coming. Two, notice how she moves into the open spot. Was she want a little more elbow room or was she trying to be a jerk and keep him from getting to the bar. I don't know but her over reaction to his actions makes me believe she wasn't just looking for elbow room.




wiscto said:


> That wouldn't have made me nervous on my worst day.


So what would you do have done? What do you think a LEO would have done? 




wiscto said:


> You can talk about fights, but I worked in the system for two years. I know where the line is. Her behavior, depending on witnesses' statements, may have contributed to him getting community service. I can understand that argument even if I don't agree with it. But I'm not buying your spin, guys. The kid blew it. He punched her because he wanted to.


Again watch the video but watch his actions this time. As I pointed out in another post watch his interaction with the woman standing in front of him when he first comes into frame. Does he show any aggression at all? Or does he stand there and wait for her to move. I don't know his background but there's nothing in the video before the blond turns on him to suggest he is anything but a guy trying to reach the bar.




wiscto said:


> He could have gotten out of that situation without escalating it, and that's what society expects. Even if y'all don't like it.


I'm sorry but how is restraining someone who is threatening to punch you escalating things? Remember this is a 19 y.o. with zero training who goes from trying to get to the bar to having someone punch him in the face in 10 seconds. Not an LEO with hours of training on how to deescalate a conflict and hours of training on how to take down a combative person.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Talk about this PC stuff going overboard and this country gone completely Insane read the new threads I just posted


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I saw the first contact, as did you:
> 
> 
> It looked intentional to me, and it seems she thought so too


What in the tape makes it look intentional? 

Its a crowded bar. You are going to try to say that a bump in a crowded bar is justification for turning around with your fist raised? Also watch her actions BEFORE he bumped her. He is moving forward toward the open spot and she is moving into the spot. 




Bearfootfarm said:


> You aren't going to convince me she decided to attack someone larger than herself for a "bump", and you aren't going to convince me he was right to punch her.


Drunks do all kinds of stupid things for reasons all their own. Have you read the story about the drunk who killed himself when he set off a huge firework while it was on his head? Trying to apply logic to drunks is foolish. 

But why she decided to turn around ready to punch him has nothing to do with it. The fact she assumed an aggressive stance a soon as she turned does. Again he goes from being a guy trying to get to the bar to facing a threatening woman to being punched in the face in 10 seconds. Its not like he had time to think only react.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

no really said:


> Just be question, if this had been another man, smaller stature would it have turned out with the same attitude toward the football player?



Nope, but possibly the same results for the QB.




gapeach said:


> I fully agree that he should not have been in the bar and underage drinking. I totally agree to that he should not have hit her.
> 
> 
> This QB was not expected to play much if any this year but was projected as a star on the level with Jamus Winston. It is suprising to me that FL State has released him. He is a hot commodity and will go on and play somewhere else.
> ...


:yuck:
LOL
This wasn't PC, IMO, but *SEC.* Southern Etiquette Correctness.
:thumb:


I started to weigh in this morning, but had to run.
Sorry for the chauvinist slant, but hitting a female is still a big no-no in our neck of the woods.
Don't care, no excuses, unless she's got a lethal weapon and you're about to be killed, you better find a way to handle it without hitting her.
That would probably still get me a whooping from my elders with my mama being first in line!:hammer:
And yes, I've been there, when I was a boy, that's why I can say it.:hammer:

The point has been brought out by several in the legal view of a trained athlete, but I'm going to make it more bluntly......

If you're supposed to be a QB at a top football school, and you can't deftly ward off a drunk, pudgy female (in a crowded bar or not) how in the world are you gonna handle 5 aggressive defensive linemen from U of F at the end of the season?
Just sayin.........:grin:


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

wiscto said:


> I never said he was good. But he certainly tried. He went for speed not power, but he sure tried to follow through..and by the way...speed is good for a knockout. Now that I'm looking at it, he sucks more than I thought. He didn't throw it very straight, too much action at the tail end...probably because he was trying to make her head spin instead of just landing the punch...which also redirected him a little too high...and his eyes were closed.... But he tried. And then he ran to get away from the law.
> 
> *And by the way, whether he went for the knockout or not, the reality is that he was still wrong. You know that, that's why you're dragging this into the "was it a knockout punch though..." debate. You can't grab someone by the wrists/arms/hands when they aren't physically assaulting you. You can't manhandle them. They CAN punch you for it. You CAN'T punch back, because you were the aggressor in the first place. That's really all there is to it. *


Show me where in the law it requires you to be attacked before you can defend yourself. AFAIK, the laws only require you to feel an attack is imminent. Someone comes at you screaming with a baseball bat in his hand and you hit him you aren't going to be charged with assault even if its is later discovered he was trying to kill a bee buzzing around your head. If someone turns on you with a raised fist you should not face criminal charges if you grab their arm to prevent them from hitting you.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's his problem alone.
> He should have stopped to think about it before being so stupid.


Yeah, what kind of stupid person can't make a call like that in 10 seconds!


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

watcher said:


> Yeah, what kind of stupid person can't make a call like that in 10 seconds!





Go Gators!


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> A real man would have walked away


Ah so a woman can hit a man and he must run away. Where does this logic end? Can she only get by if she uses her fist or can she use a tool? Only punches to the face or does she get a free shot at the family jewels? Of course it'd be a bit hard to walk away after that, maybe stumble away? Does she also get a free stab or two? How about a gunshot? After all only a fake man can't take a round and not walk away, right?

That there is called sarcasm.

If you don't want to be hit then don't start a fight. I don't care if you are male, female or Bruce Jenner once you start a fight the other person (be they male, female or Bruce) has the right to defend themselves.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

wiscto said:


> OKAY you guys got me. I watched it again, he got her eye. You're right bro. But guess what...
> 
> As I've said several times in this thread, to clear the delusion, *you cant' grab someone's wrists and control them when all they're doing is talking. Her arm was out...she didn't do squat with it. Her fist was back. She didn't do squat with it. He grabbed her arms and manhandled her, at which point SHE was the one who acted in self defense. He wast he aggressor, which means that his punch was NOT self defense. *


What video did you watch? Look at the arm he grabbed. What is on the free end of that arm? Could that be a FIST? Someone standing there with their fist 'cocked' ready to 'fire' is considered a threat. He grabbed her to protect himself from the threat of being hit. That is self defense.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Ozarks Tom said:


> I made nearly as much money off the pool tables as the drinks. If you've got poor shooters, not so much, but a half dozen sharks keep those coin slots moving.
> 
> I've been in way too many bars in my life, and never seen anyone use pool equipment as a weapon. Beer pitchers, bottles, stools, chairs yes, even another patron a couple times. Can't tell you why, it seems like a natural.


Then you've missed something. I can tell you a cue or a ball can do some damage.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's his problem alone.
> He should have stopped to think about it before being so stupid.


Well, I'm sure we can cure that with a short rope and a tall limb, can't we?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jolly said:


> Well, I'm sure we can cure that with a short rope and a tall limb, can't we?


More irrationality rather than a logical, serious response.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> More irrationality rather than a logical, serious response.


No, I think you have something against the young man either because he is:

A. a college football player
B. Black
C. Both

And I think this may be leading you to a Draconian penalty.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

One...

We do not have all the facts.

What gender do each of the parties involved In the event feel they were at the time... this is very important.

It could have been a cat fight
It could have been two guys .
It have been a lady football player being harassed at the bar by a male blonde


Just think of all the perspectives our society can now view this.


Blondie is an aggressive person.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jolly said:


> No, I think you have something against the young man either because he is:
> 
> A. a college football player
> B. Black
> ...


I have "something against him" because he's an idiot punk who thinks punching a woman is OK

I would think the same if he was white, and if he wasn't a student.

I haven't said he should have a more harsh penalty than what he's received so far, and whatever the court decides after a trial.

You should just stick to what people actually say rather than creating these wild fantasies in your own mind, in your efforts to defend his actions


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I have "something against him" because he's an idiot punk who thinks punching a woman is OK
> 
> I would think the same if he was white, and if he wasn't a student.
> 
> ...


I can only go by what I read, and that _Hang 'em High_ theme that plays when you post...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylY9wlnTdlw[/ame]


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I have "something against him" because he's an idiot punk who thinks punching a woman is OK
> 
> I would think the same if he was white, and if he wasn't a student.
> 
> ...


Do you think that there is any possible scenario where his having decked a woman was excusable?


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## FutureFarm (Mar 1, 2013)

Where are all the feminists? If a man raised a fist to another man, wouldn't the defending man be entitled to self defense? The defending man would be lauded for restraint for not retaliating until the third blow. The way I see it, this QB is a shining example of feminism. He treated that woman just like he'd treat a man. Isn't that what feminists want, equal treatment?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

FutureFarm said:


> Where are all the feminists? If a man raised a fist to another man, wouldn't the defending man be entitled to self defense? The defending man would be lauded for restraint for not retaliating until the third blow. The way I see it, this QB is a shining example of feminism. He treated that woman just like he'd treat a man. Isn't that what feminists want, equal treatment?


I think making this a feminist issue is a bit of a reach and feminism was never about women wanted punched in the face 'like a man' but I think you knew that already. 

In the case of the football player, I suspect that he would have been suspended from the team even if he had punched a man in front of security cameras because it violated his contract.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

wr said:


> I think making this a feminist issue is a bit of a reach and feminism was never about women wanted punched in the face 'like a man' but I think you knew that already.
> 
> In the case of the football player, I suspect that he would have been suspended from the team even if he had punched a man in front of security cameras because it violated his contract.


I dunno...Down at the U, they wouldn't recruit you unless you had a rap sheet...

Seriously, I've never heard of a coach throwing a guy off of the squad for a fight with another guy, when the other guy started it.

Feminist, or not, there does seem to be a bit of a double standard.


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## FutureFarm (Mar 1, 2013)

But if the aggressor was a man, would the man who was attacked be doing community service while the attacker walked away without any punishment?
Is there a list of instances where feminists believe women should be treated differently than men? It sure would make situations like this easier.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

FutureFarm said:


> But if the aggressor was a man, would the man who was attacked be doing community service while the attacker walked away without any punishment?
> Is there a list of instances where feminists believe women should be treated differently than men? It sure would make situations like this easier.


The community service was voluntary and seems to be something that the player and his lawyers may have decided was a good proactive approach prior to court. I've seen guys take anger management courses or go to rehab to try sway court decisions as well.


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## FutureFarm (Mar 1, 2013)

But it's safe to say the list of instances where feminists want to be treated differently starts with immunity from assault charges where they are the aggressor, and the selective service act?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

FutureFarm said:


> But it's safe to say the list of instances where feminists want to be treated differently starts with immunity from assault charges where they are the aggressor, and the selective service act?


I think it's safe to say the investigation is ongoing. I believe it was yesterday that I read that several other members of the team have been asked to give statements. 

I don't consider myself to be a feminist but perhaps you do and I actually don't know if she should be charged with assault or not. I have repeatedly said that the video itself shows that something happened but there is no sound so we can't be sure if she did call a derogatory name or not but then again, we can't be sure he didn't happen to call her a name either. Is there a chance that they dated at some point or have some history or perhaps there was something that went on earlier in the evening. Both parties reactions seem a bit too over the top to justify the altercation at the bar. 

It is my understanding that the state attorney feels he saw the same thing another of our members did and believes the player made contact with the woman first which means her actions were justified. 

I'm of the opinion that any human that raises a fist in the 'let's go' position had best be prepared to finish the altercation.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

kasilofhome said:


> Straight to men must be touching inappropriate..... seems she was the one...if women want a victim card the best shut up about employment difference... maybe big bad men might harm them by looking at them so let's limit jobs.
> 
> She got physical maybe he did not like being touch inappropriately.


I have never really understood women who hate their own sex so much. From all of your posts you seem to think anything that happens to women whether rape or assault or whatever is well deserved and provoked by them.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I can only go by *what I read*, and that Hang 'em High theme that plays when you post..


Then evidently you can't read too well


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

where I want to said:


> Do you think that there is any possible scenario where his having decked a woman was excusable?


Yes, if she had pulled a knife or a gun.
Otherwise he's just an immature, macho punk


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> I have never really understood women who hate their own sex so much. From all of your posts you seem to think anything that happens to women whether rape or assault or whatever is well deserved and provoked by them.


It's not about hating your own sex. It's a refusal to fall into the victim mentality. I don't agree with kalisofhome in this particular situation, but I get what she is saying.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Feral...you are right on....

I have not had a problem at work ever getting equality but the again
I never complain that it was women's work and wrong to assign a woman to clean the toilet... note...small office and EVERY employee had a week.... other women complained I just did it....so did another female.

When it was my turn to shovel the walk way I made sure to have my boots there that week..feminist again complained about high heels....

The the feminist would pump other employee about pay rate.... trying to show separate pay rates.... a single feminine Nazi destroyers teamwork atmosphere.

Sorry but the blonde person started the physical violence...... it's on film....why blame the male....he did not pounce to attack. ....Blondie I st might learn one of too things

Not to start a fight 
Or

Hey, cute maybe I can get away with more next time.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Then evidently you can't read too well


My, don't we make a pair! I can't read and you can't think!

Two ships, blindly crashing in the night...


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

wr said:


> The community service was voluntary and seems to be something that the player and his lawyers may have decided was a good proactive approach prior to court. I've seen guys take anger management courses or go to rehab to try sway court decisions as well.


It doesn't seem to be an unreasonable action taken by someone with 'anger issues' to punch someone AFTER they have punched you in the fact.


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