# Goats extremely underweight



## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

I finally got to weigh my goats today, my two THREE YEAR OLD (that have both freshened twice) full blooded lamancha does weighed NINETY POUNDS . My two yearling does (1 year old next month) weighed 40 pounds each. I know, extremely underweight. I've known that they weren't upto body condition and that they were underweight, but I didn't realize they were this bad. I think it's all due to copper defeciency--I've wanted to bolus since I got them, but my stupid teacher keeps saying he will buy them for me, and never does (at first he refused to even let me bolus them--he said goats don't need copper, it will kill them (he was thinking about sheep)) Now I need to scramble to get copper in them immediatly if not sooner, and once again he didn't order them with his last medical supply! He says he doesn't have any money--could have told me sooner! :grumble:

I know a lot of this is my fault. But god it would be nice for me to get some support from him sometime. If I had copper bolused when I had wanted too maybe Kaz wouldn't have died. Maybe it's all my fault. :Bawling: Maybe I should just quit, I've already lost close 1000$ dollars in just my first two years to mainly bad luck--1000$ I worked my butt off working at a fast food place to get. :Bawling:


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

What are you feeding? Which mineral supplement are you using? 

Hay?

For the copper, I'd suggest going to your local garden or farm store and picking up some copper sulfate. Mix 1/7 - 1/8 teaspoon with some peanut butter and roll it in some slippery elm bark (if you have it). If you don't have the slippery elm, then just the peanut butter ought to do it. 

That's the quickest way I know of to get copper into them. I'm sure others will have ideas as well.

Good luck!


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

Pony said:


> What are you feeding? Which mineral supplement are you using?
> 
> Hay?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the idea, I'll do that ASAP. They were on alfalfa over the summer and grass hay and forage now--plus this new grain mix I bought to try a little while ago. They seem to be eating just fine though. All I have been giving them is cheap goat mineral stuff and a salt lick, I need to buy a new bag of Sweetlix or something.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I doubt your goats are underweight due to copper. Poor coats, fish tails and etc sure half the size of your other goats, no. 
Are they does or wethers? 
Did they have coccidia? Or any other health issues that could have stunted their growth? Or it is what you are or are not feeding. 
Everyone feeds differently, I feed 2 parts alfalfa pellets, one part grain and grass hay and have loose minerals. I do not copper bolus. That works for me in my area and my budget. Some feed strictly hay, others feed a more complex combo. You need to find what works for you that you can afford.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

thaiblue12 said:


> I doubt your goats are underweight due to copper. Poor coats, fish tails and etc sure half the size of your other goats, no.
> Are they does or wethers?
> Did they have coccidia? Or any other health issues that could have stunted their growth? Or it is what you are or are not feeding.
> Everyone feeds differently, I feed 2 parts alfalfa pellets, one part grain and grass hay and have loose minerals. I do not copper bolus. That works for me in my area and my budget. Some feed strictly hay, others feed a more complex combo. You need to find what works for you that you can afford.


All does, all eating, pooping, and peeing fine. All fine energy levels. I wrote what I feed above. They usually have feed left over in the feeders, surely if they weren't being fed enough they would eat all the feed. They produced milk fine and were at good weights this summer. They have poor quality washed out fur, low weights, and bony/skinny exteriors. Those are the only real symptoms I've noticed.


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

Pony said:


> For the copper, I'd suggest going to your local garden or farm store and picking up some copper sulfate. Mix 1/7 - 1/8 teaspoon with some peanut butter and roll it in some slippery elm bark (if you have it). If you don't have the slippery elm, then just the peanut butter ought to do it.
> 
> That's the quickest way I know of to get copper into them. I'm sure others will have ideas as well.
> 
> Good luck!


writing that down, really like that idea. though I dont think mine need it yet its a good idea to have in my goat note book...


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

So 1/7th to 1/8th teaspoon each right? I don't want to overdose.


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## Laverne (May 25, 2008)

I agree with thaiblue12. I know from experience that my goats can even be fat but still copper deficient. This copper issue is a problem with many as can be seen with all the old threads. You're not alone dealing with this. I procrastinated on the Copasure, it's hard to face the facts about the copper crisis that many of us goat owners have to deal with.There is a good thread titled, 'using copper sulfate instead of boluses?'. I have learned it is a pain in the butt to constantly dose copper so I now bolus. I am going to get some Cargill Right Now Onyx mineral and see what happens. This seems like the only formula that some are using with good results. It will be my 3rd brand to try. I feel confident though that I'm covering the copper ok with the Copasure. I can't overemphasize the value of reading old threads on the subject.
unfortunately it can be expensive to properly feed dairy does in production. Many professionals feed alfalfa pellets free choice. I don't have tons of browse to offset this. The pellets will really help with getting a goat in good flesh. 
From what i've read on worming, it needs to be repeated in 10 days after the 1st worming and then even 10 days after that in some cases. There could be a worm issue going on with all the other critters around and may be hard to keep on top of it where you're at. Worms could definitly affect their condition. The worms in your area could be immune to the wormer you're using. Do you fecal yet? Copper helps with worm control also.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

I'm trying to look up anything that causes weight loss in goats:

CAE -- Not likely, they were purchased from a registered herd who said CL/CAE free with proof, although I have yet to get my test results back from this year.

Johne's Disease -- As far as I know, no. They were dam raised at the farm they came from; so unless if their goats also have it, not likely. Also, kids under 1 year of age don't generally see such severe symptoms? Doesn't it usually effect older stalk more?

Worms/Parasites of any sort? -- They had a lice problem, but seem to be getting over it. I have been consistently worming every 6 weeks, also, I could not see worms in fecal samples (blind eye though, no microscope)


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

thaiblue12 said:


> I doubt your goats are underweight due to copper. Poor coats, fish tails and etc sure half the size of your other goats, no.
> Are they does or wethers?
> Did they have coccidia? Or any other health issues that could have stunted their growth? Or it is what you are or are not feeding.
> Everyone feeds differently, I feed 2 parts alfalfa pellets, one part grain and grass hay and have loose minerals. I do not copper bolus. That works for me in my area and my budget. Some feed strictly hay, others feed a more complex combo. You need to find what works for you that you can afford.


It might be the more chronic form of Coccidiosis though. It would explain why, on pasture in the summer, they were doing better then in the smaller more crowded conditions they are in right now. I'll try to move them out to a pasture to reduce stress, give them copper boluses, and start treatment for Coccidiosis; which is....?


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

Don't rule out the possibility of tapeworms as well. They can really pull a critter down.


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## madness (Dec 6, 2006)

Bricheze said:


> Worms/Parasites of any sort? -- They had a lice problem, but seem to be getting over it. I have been consistently worming every 6 weeks, also, I could not see worms in fecal samples (blind eye though, no microscope)


I didn't think you could see any eggs without a microscope. Remember that worming on a schedule can sometimes land you in resistant parasite territory. You may be using Ivomec for example, but it is no longer effective on your animals and you need to switch to something else. Also, not every wormer covers every parasite.

My first suggestion would be to get a proper fecal done and see what you are dealing with. You'll never know if parasites are a problem - and which ones - without it!


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

madness said:


> I didn't think you could see any eggs without a microscope. Remember that worming on a schedule can sometimes land you in resistant parasite territory. You may be using Ivomec for example, but it is no longer effective on your animals and you need to switch to something else. Also, not every wormer covers every parasite.
> 
> My first suggestion would be to get a proper fecal done and see what you are dealing with. You'll never know if parasites are a problem - and which ones - without it!


Okay, I'll call my vet and ask him if he can do a fecal sample test for me--but start with the management today, I'm heading out the door right now to search down copper and get over to the farm, to at least, clean our their pen and give them fresh bedding if anything that needs to be done!


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

KimM said:


> Don't rule out the possibility of tapeworms as well. They can really pull a critter down.


Well, if I rule out Coccidiosis from a fecal at the vet, tapeworms could be a possibility as well. I'll worry about it then. My vets number isn't programmed into this phone (it's new, the number is in my moms) so I can't call him until tonight.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

The Alpine that I have here waiting to go to her new home, has been horrible to put weight on. I've been watching her berries and saw nothing, until today I just happened to see one, small tapeworm segment. I just gave her 6 ccs of Valbazen, more than twice the sheep dosage. The tapeworm segments aren't always there in plain sight. Let us know what you find out. 
As far as copper, I'll PM you.




Bricheze said:


> Well, if I rule out Coccidiosis from a fecal at the vet, tapeworms could be a possibility as well. I'll worry about it then. My vets number isn't programmed into this phone (it's new, the number is in my moms) so I can't call him until tonight.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

What kind of mineral are you feeding? How do you know it's not doing the job on copper?

My water has some iron in it and iron is supposed to interfere with copper utilization by my goats look fine. Nice coats and full fleshed. They get free choice alfalfa or pellets most of the winter and that seems to really put the weight on them.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

fishhead said:


> What kind of mineral are you feeding? How do you know it's not doing the job on copper?
> 
> My water has some iron in it and iron is supposed to interfere with copper utilization by my goats look fine. Nice coats and full fleshed. They get free choice alfalfa or pellets most of the winter and that seems to really put the weight on them.


I think one of my kids died from Ezootonic Atexia this winter--which is caused only by copper deficiency in the last trimester of pregnancy (I loved that goat a ton and I pretty much stayed up for four days straight-- while he died in my arms, tracking down whatever disease he had.. it fit the best)


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I think Copper Sulfate is the wrong one. The one that is blue crystals is the wrong kind, I think it is also used as a root killer. I just cannot remember the darn word that comes after copper. I had it to add to their water and my vet told me that it was not the kind you should use on your goat, but I cannot remember the word after Copper! 

For Coccidia you can use Albon, Corid, Sulmet etc. Based on weight dose them for 5 days wait 3 weeks and do it again. I would take a poop sample to the vet to make sure you do have parasites and which kind so you treat it with the correct meds.

You said you just started giving them grain. Have you in the past just fed alfalfa and grass hay? Even when they were in milk or were you feeding a different kind of grain?


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## LomahAcres (Jan 21, 2007)

Bricheze said:


> Worms/Parasites of any sort? -- They had a lice problem, but seem to be getting over it. I have been consistently worming every 6 weeks, also, I could not see worms in fecal samples (blind eye though, no microscope)


You should not need to worm every 6 weeks. What kind of wormer are you using? Worming too often can cause a resistance to build in your herd. Get a fecal done ASAP so you can see if and what kind you're dealing with and worm accordingly. You will not see adult worms in a fecal, only their eggs and only with a microscope - the exception is tapes. Winter fecals can be misleading as often adult worms will stop laying in the winter, but continue to suck blood and do your does harm. When worming, remove them from your pastures for 12 hours after if you are able. During this time they will be expelling adult worms - back into your pasture!


When you bolus you are giving copper oxide. Copper sulfate if used too much or too long will cause damage to the rumen and decrease immunity levels, and will not give you the copper boost you get from bolusing. You can buy the copasure bolus your self at Jefferslivestock.com or Valleyvet.com. 

When using a mineral, read your label, you want copper from at least 2 different sources. If you have a high level of copper but only copper sulfate, you could be doing more harm then good. Red colored minerals are high in iron, iron blocks copper absorption.


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## dragonchick (Oct 10, 2007)

Copper OXIDE rods is the correct kind of copper. The Copper sulfate is very hard on the goats and can bring one to deaths door very quickly.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

Well my phone died; and I just started using this phone so I don't have a charger. Couldn't call anyone--a teacher, a vet, mom, etc.

I went to the farm to try and do something about it if it was cocci. I let the goats out (figured some free roaming around would help with stress) and just started completely tearing out and cleaning their pen. The goats usually just stay right by me, as most of them were trained to when they were younger, so I just let them loose while I worked.

I cleaned the pen for like 4 hours, I was taking the last load the manure pile, the goats had ventured out a little further then usual; so I had decided to grab them right after I dumped the 'crap'. Then these two women showed up. They yelled at me for having my goats out and questioned why I didn't ask for help. Well, there was only one other person there who looks after the animals--and I've asked for his help in the past, and all I he did was get annoyed, give me basically a bucket of towels (my goat was kidding and the supplies were locked up) and he said "good luck" and left. So I didn't think he would be much help--especially when all I was doing was cleaning a pen.

Course, I didn't exactly want to explain all this to them, especially with the emotional state I am in right now, so I basically responded with a lot of "ummm..."'s and "I don't know"'s. They asked for my name and I had to reassure them I was capable of catching my own goats (who just came when I called their names, and walked back with me to the pen...)

Basically, I did have the situation under control; and I was just trying to do something to care for my goats. One already died, and it happened so suddenly, who knows how close any of the others are? If a goat went down tonight, it very well could die. I couldn't do anything else, my phone was dead. What do they expect me to do, sit at home and cry, and hope no more of my animals that seem to be relying purely on me (as I have almost 0 support right now) die?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Ditto on the de-worming schedule. Bad idea.

Deworm only as necessary based on fecal testing.

If you haven't done the coccidia treatments from three weeks old, and de-worming in the way that gets rid of worms, they may have damaged rumens.

I know, it's overwhelming, and there is SO MUCH to learn. It's hard. It's frustrating.

I, too, have lost a goat due to not enough knowledge in my head. 

You have got to bolus. Can you buy the stuff yourself? Let us send you some?

But.... I don't think that's the problem with the stunted animals. That's more likely worms, or coccidia, and damaged rumens.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Ditto on the de-worming schedule. Bad idea.
> 
> Deworm only as necessary based on fecal testing.
> 
> ...


And that would be once again the result of my teacher... I have never been in control of the worming program, that's all been my teachers responsibility and deal (really the only thing he has done for me). He just said he would take care of it for me; and I trusted him. I told him the vet was willing to do fecal samples to make sure we were using the correct dewormer, and that's when he told me he had been deworming them so often. I just didn't know any better :sob:


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

The only thing is Kaz still had seizures before he even ever went to that farm, and Kaz had all the symptoms the other goats do now (just worse). It can't just be their rumens being damaged by dewormers--but I can add that onto the list of what I think is wrong.

Copper deficiency, damaged rumens from dewormers, pneumonia, coccidia, ezootonic atexia, lice...


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I didn't state that clearly. Damaged rumens from coccidia and worms. Not from de-wormers.

Damage from out of control parasites. If the rumen surface gets damaged, they can't digest their food, and they can't gain weight.....ever.

Here's info about damaged rumens (with pics) from acidosis. 

http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=13360.0


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I didn't state that clearly. Damaged rumens from coccidia and worms. Not from de-wormers.
> 
> Damage from out of control parasites. If the rumen surface gets damaged, they can't digest their food, and they can't gain weight.....ever.
> 
> ...


Ooooh ok, is it reversible? Am I too late to stop it from getting too bad?

:Bawling:


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## Laverne (May 25, 2008)

Brichese, don't get discouraged. You looked to your teacher as your mentor, at first anyway probably. You were totally let down. He doesn't know what he's doing. He doesn't even know how to disbud. Don't let him touch your goats or believe a word out of his mouth. A decent goat mentor should be able to look at a goat and tell in 2 seconds the condition of the animal and what is needed. He is older and supposed to be experienced and he failed you with his ignorance. 
You now have your new goat boy and with the knowledge you have here and at other sites like dairy goat info. you can make your new goat successful and a standout. And I bet you could turn those does around also.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

Laverne said:


> Brichese, don't get discouraged. You looked to your teacher as your mentor, at first anyway probably. You were totally let down. He doesn't know what he's doing. He doesn't even know how to disbud. Don't let him touch your goats or believe a word out of his mouth. A decent goat mentor should be able to look at a goat and tell in 2 seconds the condition of the animal and what is needed. He is older and supposed to be experienced and he failed you with his ignorance.
> You now have your new goat boy and with the knowledge you have here and at other sites like dairy goat info. you can make your new goat successful and a standout. And I bet you could turn those does around also.


I can't give up on the does. One thing I can't do is give up on an animal with the will to live. They don't deserve to die because of my mistakes--wether or not they were my fault, they do not deserve to die. There has to be something I can do....


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

Every time that I had concern for my goats, even when one was born with obvious selenium deficiency (feet bending in has he walked), I was told it was normal. And because I believed them my goats are now suffering the consequences. I learned weeks ago that no one should be trusted, I've learned so much in the past year. I just should have done something sooner.


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## Laverne (May 25, 2008)

You said in your first post, 'maybe I should just quit'. I'm glad you want to keep going.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You said, "I just should have done something sooner."

Is that true? No, dear. This is part of the learning process. You acted on what you knew at the time. Please don't beat yourself up with that negative thought.

You are gathering info and moving ahead. HOORAY!

Huggs,
Alice


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## AuntKitty (Oct 25, 2004)

Don't get discouraged, we all have to learn as we go. I am only one year into having Nubians and I have already learned sooooo much. PM me if you would like me to send you some copper boluses. One should be enough for all your goats at a time. They come in a huge calf size but I split them down into smaller gelatin capsules that I get at the health food store. I've heard alot of people say to make little balls with peanut butter or whatever, but my goats won't take it that way. I put a little probios on the gelatin capsule and use a bolusing gun and the pills go right down that way. You will see results starting in a few days - I was amazed at the difference it made. Jefferslivestock.com has the bolusing gun for a few dollars (get the calf size) if your local feed stores don't carry them. The Copasure is more expensive but one jar of them will last for years if you don't have a huge herd. If your vet can't do the fecal or charges too much, call around. Some vets in my area charge $40 and some only charge $12 - so there is a big difference.

Good luck!

Kitty


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