# Do you plan to return to the dark ages



## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

this seems a valid question.
seriously if everything went south do you really plan to abandon all modern technology if so why . 
It seems many fail to consider that technology and knowledge is what brought us out of the dark ages.
I see many with the romantic idea that they will farm with nothing but animals and light using candles and kero lanterns. sounds great in theory but in reality the kero will run out unless you have the means to extract more.
Why turn your back on the tried and true.
lets face it henery ford designed the first cars to run off alcohol, the first diesel engines were built to run off peanut oil. all it takes to generate electricity is some wire and magnets, even ancient civilizations made batteries with nothing more than a bit of copper lead and wine (they used the power to electroplate )

Heck the average calculator has more computing power than what we used to put men on the moon. the average lap top can store more info than a small town library.
I think many over look such things as valuable prep items.
with a laptop you have the knowledge of the world at your finger tips.
Personally Ive stored information on things that may possibly be needed for future use . everything from water purification to the manufacture of anti-biotics , how to make a clay pot to cooking portland cement, from melting wax to refining metal.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

My only thought is that if I don't have electricity, my laptop will cease to work after its battery runs out, as will my fancy calculator (my solar-powerd simple calculator will still work though!). 

I have no desire to go back to a pre-technology era if the SHTF. Back in those days, a compound fracture meant death - no way to safely operate and no antibiotics. I have a wealth of info at my fingertips via the internet...but if there is no electricity and the servers shut down I'm back at my local library trying to find what I need. 

Even the best built solar batteries need repairing or replacing eventually, and if we have no way of doing that (and we have no more electricity) we'll be S.O.L.


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## tn_junk (Nov 28, 2006)

I plan on going back to at least 15,000 BC. 
My experiment over the last six months has taught me that I can't deal
with all the complexities of modern life.
Living in a cave and eating small furry animals and scaly reptiles best suites me.

alan


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2009)

I have NO desire to give up modern life, and truly hope I'll never have to. And honestly I don't believe I would have to for long. They restored electricity and other niceties on the Gulf Coast after Katrina and Rita hit as fast as they could. That's what I would expect to happen here.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

bluemoonluck said:


> My only thought is that if I don't have electricity, my laptop will cease to work after its battery runs out, as will my fancy calculator (my solar-powerd simple calculator will still work though!).
> 
> I have no desire to go back to a pre-technology era if the SHTF. Back in those days, a compound fracture meant death - no way to safely operate and no antibiotics. I have a wealth of info at my fingertips via the internet...but if there is no electricity and the servers shut down I'm back at my local library trying to find what I need.
> 
> Even the best built solar batteries need repairing or replacing eventually, and if we have no way of doing that (and we have no more electricity) we'll be S.O.L.


It seems you have little faith in your own abilities .
why would electricity suddenly stop? sure the grid would be toast but what is stopping you from producing your own? a battery can be made from scavanged screenwire and a glass or clay pot granted you need to have the knowledge but even thousands of years ago they had that.
your thinking internet as far as servers go , I stated stored data prepping should include gathering all the information you can , its every bit as valuable as food . Knowledge can in fact feed you be that in the form of food preservation or which plants grow in nature .
consider the advantage a person with the ability to make Ice would have (BTW Ice making does not require electricity)


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

PyroDon said:


> It seems you have little faith in your own abilities .
> why would electricity suddenly stop? sure the grid would be toast but what is stopping you from producing your own? a battery can be made from scavanged screenwire and a glass or clay pot granted you need to have the knowledge but even thousands of years ago they had that.
> your thinking internet as far as servers go , I stated stored data prepping should include gathering all the information you can , its every bit as valuable as food . Knowledge can in fact feed you be that in the form of food preservation or which plants grow in nature .
> consider the advantage a person with the ability to make Ice would have (BTW Ice making does not require electricity)


You're right, of course :bow: But as I am a child of the digital age, if I wanted to figure out how to make a battery on my own I'd google it  Needless to say, that skill is distinctly unhelpful if the electricity is already gone!

I know that I should get a decent book that covers skills like this, or start thinking ahead and making my own paper notes like you have done. I'll add that to my list of things to work on


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

I've got over 30 DVD's stored full of information (Foxfire books, AT site, etc, etc) and have recently purchased a simple Laptop, enough memory and things to run adobe (all are in PDF format) and have it packaged up.

We have a small 40 watt panel and four sealed batteries for this purpose alone. The batteries will run a tv and DVD player for about 4 - 6 movies until I get the urge to unhook it and let the batteries charge. Sure, it may not last forever, but it is a plan.

I plan on replacing the batteries every few years, and use the system at least every 3 months to top off the batteries and ensure it is working.

I have slowly been printing off the items I deemed necessary at the school, since all they require me to provide is the paper. Buy a few of those plastic book binders, and voila, my own two personal copies of whatever I need or want. One goes up into storage, the other is used.

I have one copy of the DVDs at parents house, two copies here, and one in my wife's classroom.

I almost have them indexed, and will be set then.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

PyroDon said:


> It seems you have little faith in your own abilities .
> why would electricity suddenly stop? sure the grid would be toast but what is stopping you from producing your own? a battery can be made from scavanged screenwire and a glass or clay pot granted you need to have the knowledge but even thousands of years ago they had that.
> your thinking internet as far as servers go , I stated stored data prepping should include gathering all the information you can , its every bit as valuable as food . Knowledge can in fact feed you be that in the form of food preservation or which plants grow in nature .
> consider the advantage a person with the ability to make Ice would have (BTW Ice making does not require electricity)


Could you post some of your links on generating your own electricity and making your own anti-biotics?


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

PyroDon said:


> ...(BTW Ice making does not require electricity)


That's for sure! All it takes around here to make ice is an ice saw...which we have several....and a frozen lake or river.


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

hmmm - hard one.

I could live a "dark age" life. Those are skills that I do have and can manage with. I would rather not if I can help it - I agree that access to information in particular is a necessity. But.........

I am a lone adult with a small(ish) child. If TSHTF, I think my 24 hours a day would be fully taken up with surviving day-to-day. I am not sure that I would have the wherewithal to start re-building technological aids to living. Not that I don't ahve the intellect, but on top of the act of surviving to then start learning the skills from scratch and implement them.

I have thought about the "learn some of the technological skills now" approach - but what do you learn.

Even simple things that would be missing - we have no blacksmith and no forge on the island - so making anything from metal would be out of the question. Not even shoes for horses and no-one to fix any agricultural equipment - there are people who weld, but they all use electric welders.

Electrical devices - yep, would be nice, but probably one of the harder ones to master efficiently.

And so the list goes on - what technology do you put before the others, how do you decide which ones you are most likely to need. And where technology has developed, it has done so in an open environment - if Joe Bloggs is inenting a machine and needs something manufactured, he can go down teh road and get it done. In a SHTF, you might not have that luxury. So it would be completely on your own?

So the answer is - I don't know LOL

hoggie


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

We will return to whatever we are returned to...no romance...no worries...just dealing with whatever comes this way.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

I work in the tech industry, but I could probably live without it.

I sure would like a nice glass of iced tea in the hot summer.

Been noodling the concept of the huge refrigerator Doc Brown made in Back to the Future III.

I don't think it would need a coal fired furnace to power it.

If it just came to powering a small freezer, wind could do the trick nicely and I don't mean wind-electric generation.

If you look at how a refrigerator works, it's just a motor that runs a compressor that causes volatile gases to be compressed and uncompressed. this process transfers heat to a radiating coil where it dissapates and the gas is then recycled throug the freezer compartment.

A series of flywheels and springs wound up by a windmill should do the trick. Or a mule constanly walking around to run the compressor. ;-)


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

bluemoonluck said:


> You're right, of course :bow: But as I am a child of the digital age, if I wanted to figure out how to make a battery on my own I'd google it  Needless to say, that skill is distinctly unhelpful if the electricity is already gone!
> 
> I know that I should get a decent book that covers skills like this, or start thinking ahead and making my own paper notes like you have done. I'll add that to my list of things to work on


so you google it now and save the info its part of prepping 
we all realize knowledge is power, the more you have collected that you can reference the better your odds are


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

BillHoo said:


> If it just came to powering a small freezer, wind could do the trick nicely and I don't mean wind-electric generation.
> 
> If you look at how a refrigerator works, it's just a motor that runs a compressor that causes volatile gases to be compressed and uncompressed. this process transfers heat to a radiating coil where it dissapates and the gas is then recycled throug the freezer compartment.
> 
> A series of flywheels and springs wound up by a windmill should do the trick. Or a mule constanly walking around to run the compressor. ;-)


exactly but very few realize how its done and think such things require 110 electric. 

Ive considered a solar steam turbine to run a compressor for airconditioning .


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Cabin Fever said:


> That's for sure! All it takes around here to make ice is an ice saw...which we have several....and a frozen lake or river.


CF 
Id have froze to death long ago as far north as you are , its nearly 60 and Im in long johns and insulated shirt
you got great protection from the zomby hoards they will freeze and break to pieces before ever getting close


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Could you post some of your links on generating your own electricity and making your own anti-biotics?


otherpower.com is a good place to start on the making your own power .
I'll see what I can get you on the meds much of what I have is hard copy


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

> I plan on going back to at least 15,000 BC.


So your time machine works? 


.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

PyroDon said:


> exactly but very few realize how its done and think such things require 110 electric.
> 
> Ive considered a solar steam turbine to run a compressor for airconditioning .


Some things DO require 110 electric. You can't run most modern American appliances on some odd home-generated current(without a LOT of extra work). It takes a certain level of technology to support many technological gadgets. A collapse of society may not necessarily lead to any "Dark Age" right away, but our modern civilization is very dependent on what we call the infrastructure, and the infrastructure depends on all parts to function. If you take away one of the key parts of it, the whole structure will crumble to an earlier level. 
You have to be able to produce the things you want to use if you plan to continue running modern machines. Scavenging clay pots and screen wire might work for a while(and for very limited uses), but for the long term they might not work too well.


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## Sharon (May 11, 2002)

I could if necessary, but would not like it. Mostly because one of my daughters lives across the country from us and we only see her once a year, but because of the internet I can chat with her on a daily basis, watch her open gifts with her web cam, etc. It makes it a little easier to deal with her being so far from home.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

In the back of my head, I think about going back to 1880ish. Which basically is what happens here when the power goes off and we are snowed in.

I've either printed out or bought a book with the knowledge, not going to rely on a laptop. I have enough troubles getting a computer to work now.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

PyroDon said:


> otherpower.com is a good place to start on the making your own power .
> I'll see what I can get you on the meds much of what I have is hard copy


Thanks for the link.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

With all this stored data . . . .How are folks gonna retrieve it with out electricity. . . .???
Yes there is a few of us who will be able to generate our own.

I have a big smile while Ma Nature is providing me the energy to pump water up a 100 feet . . . .water keeps me going thank you.

One thing folks could do now is look at and think about plans for Taa-Daa.......an outhouse. . . .lol.


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## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

I don't WANT to go back to the Dark Ages, but if we assume that it couldn't happen, we could be unpleasantly surprised. Technology has been lost to human civilization before, many times. I've lived without much in the way of modern technology for a pretty good chunk of my life, and have been working on learning how to do without any. There are things I'd rather not do without (like electricity and running water), but it's always wise to be prepared for the worst-case scenario. Then you can be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't come to pass.

Kathleen


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

I have all my important survival information stored on memory sticks and also printed off. I had a computer meltdown last month and it was awful not being able to access my stuff. So if we suddenly lived off the grid (and haven't had money or time to get alternate energy sources installed) I'd be able to depend on a paper printout.

I don't want to give up my hot showers, microwave, computer and telephone, but I think we'd be ok without them. Eventually lamp oil and batteries would run out, and we'd be unhappy, but we'd be ok as long as we had water and wood to burn.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

FourDeuce said:


> Some things DO require 110 electric. You can't run most modern American appliances on some odd home-generated current(without a LOT of extra work). It takes a certain level of technology to support many technological gadgets. A collapse of society may not necessarily lead to any "Dark Age" right away, but our modern civilization is very dependent on what we call the infrastructure, and the infrastructure depends on all parts to function. If you take away one of the key parts of it, the whole structure will crumble to an earlier level.
> You have to be able to produce the things you want to use if you plan to continue running modern machines. Scavenging clay pots and screen wire might work for a while(and for very limited uses), but for the long term they might not work too well.


thats rather interesting considering lead acid battery technology hasnt changed much in over 100 years. 
clay pots were just a suggestion the first car batteries were porcelain cased
even today the telephone company and railroads still use glass jar batteries.
while modern intagrated inverters are nice before they came into fashion rotary inverters were the norm.
Modern civilization is based on a throw away mentality rather than fix it when it breaks its easier to throw it away . This is the same attitude which leads to people saying things cant be done. to abandon such technology would be very wasteful.
If the grid goes down folks who dont have power will discard all the spare parts you need for a few life times. those who have power will be setting pretty .
look at how many power tools are tossed sinply because people arent smart enough to replace the brushes on the motor (which can be done with the carbon core of a standard D cell battery)


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

ladycat said:


> I have NO desire to give up modern life, and truly hope I'll never have to. And honestly I don't believe I would have to for long. They restored electricity and other niceties on the Gulf Coast after Katrina and Rita hit as fast as they could. That's what I would expect to happen here.


 True as it is not going to happen in the first place. Maybe a few days without power because of a storm etc. But things get back up and running before long and all is forgotten.


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## vegascowgirl (Sep 19, 2004)

I wouldn't necessarily go back to the dark ages, but I'd use what sources I was comfortable with using. Seems to me that if there is no gas, and you are still powering your tractor to plow...people are going to notice and start sticking their nose into your business. You risk theft. Let's face it, most urbanites, suburbanites and even most country folk aren't going to think "oh, he/she must have found something else to power his/her vehicles with."
Besides why use gas, when a horse can be a tractor, a family car (if harnessed to a wagon), an ATV...and best yet it's exhaust is recyclable. 

There is a place for technology in our lives, yes. and in most cases we do get power restored fairly quickly. BUT, in a national disaster the internet as we know it would not be the same. In a nationwide emergency in which everyone lost power (for a very long extended time), the internet would probably be reverted back to an all military tool. Rather than a public one. Cell phones would most likely be useless as it would cost the companies to much to keep all but a very few places running. 
On the other hand I understand PyroDons view of creating your own power, etc. Being able to keep even a basic fridge or freezer running would put you way ahead of the pack.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

PD,
PLEASE share! You are talking about things that many of us here would relish knowing! I check things out as I have time but don't always know if the sources on the web are reliable. Just recently there was a thread about a water purifier. I copied the info but always am looking for more! 

No, I don't want to go back to the dark ages. I try to focus on prepping, the goal changes as the world changes. My pysche can only tolerate so much!


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

I wasnt saying to rely on the lap top just to use it wisely while you can and not to cut your own throat by saying its impossible to supply your own power or other modern things. 
someone mentioned blacksmithing and welding . 
consider that gas welding has bearly been in existance for 100 years the hardest thing to get for gas welding is Oxygen the acetylene can be stored in solid form (what do you think is produced when you add water to the carbide in carbide lamps) Granted for safety the acetylene gas has to be disolved in acetone otherwise it becomes unstable under pressure. 
arc welding can be done with a car battery. 

I see far too many people saying things cant work or will be too hard to produce. 
heck in my hobby of pyro I often hear people say they cant get this chemical or that one. In my own case I was unable to find copper benozate for a blue star comp. a little research and I had the knowledge to produce as much as I wanted and it was no harder to do than stirring chemicals in water .
rather than learn for themselves others were willing to pay $16 a pound for what cost me two to produce


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

> if everything went south do you really plan to abandon all modern technology if so why


Don't need to think about it as I am diabetic. Without modern meds I would die in short order.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Explorer said:


> Don't need to think about it as I am diabetic. Without modern meds I would die in short order.


you just hit one of the major reasonings for not giving up without a fight .
I know insulin needs refrigeration .
many modern medicines can be frozen and extend their shelf life (I dont know if thats true for insulin as most of my research has involved anti-biotics and pain meds)


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2009)

PyroDon said:


> you just hit one of the major reasonings for not giving up without a fight .
> I know insulin needs refrigeration .
> many modern medicines can be frozen and extend their shelf life (I dont know if thats true for insulin as most of my research has involved anti-biotics and pain meds)


Insulin is very fragile.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

PyroDon said:


> thats rather interesting considering lead acid battery technology hasnt changed much in over 100 years.
> clay pots were just a suggestion the first car batteries were porcelain cased
> even today the telephone company and railroads still use glass jar batteries.
> while modern intagrated inverters are nice before they came into fashion rotary inverters were the norm.
> ...





PyroDon said:


> I wasnt saying to rely on the lap top just to use it wisely while you can and not to cut your own throat by saying its impossible to supply your own power or other modern things.
> someone mentioned blacksmithing and welding .
> consider that gas welding has bearly been in existance for 100 years the hardest thing to get for gas welding is Oxygen the acetylene can be stored in solid form (what do you think is produced when you add water to the carbide in carbide lamps) Granted for safety the acetylene gas has to be disolved in acetone otherwise it becomes unstable under pressure.
> arc welding can be done with a car battery.
> ...


Four Duce - even though most american households are set up for 110 AC commerical power, alternatives can be provided.... I am set up for the long term loss of commerical power due to Earthquakes and storms.. That is due to the fact that I am a card carying certifed Disaster Worker in Communications.. Plus I had to go camping way out in the boonies for months at a time, while working in fisheries..

Pyro - while going thru school this last time, the university had an "Environmental Chemistry" class to qualify as an upper division GE science requirement. (my old degrees were on the quarter system, and this time they were semester system. So my organic and inorganic chemistry classes for my fisheries biology were declared invalid) They taught the kiddies how to ferment - distill and make 180 proof hooch!!! Just what they needed to learn how to make alcohol, yet we used it as a fuel...

Maybe I need to go out and try to find an older complete "Chemistry Set", like I had back in the day as a kid in the 1960's...

Lyden Jars are a way to improvise batteries, and have been around for a long time.. Luckily I have 12VDC items which can be modified to operate on a much lower DC voltage. I guess that my electronics degree, and 32+ years of ham radio will pay off one day.. Even lead-acid batteries do have a lifespan, and what happens when they do wear out after years of careful use.. I repair anything until it finally "falls apart", due to it being purely worn out beyond repair!! Hey some of the fixes are made without a trip to town to get a part, just to get a job done up here.. Analyize, Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.

I make my own candles, so I won't be sitting in the dark. I do get some beeswax from my friends, besides using parafin based waxes..

I make printed paper copies and have books, for the really important knowledge that may be needed just in case.. Otherwise the USB memory sticks are a convient way to store data off of the internet.. I can run my laptop off of a 12 VDC power source..


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

radiofish said:


> Maybe I need to go out and try to find an older complete "Chemistry Set", like I had back in the day as a kid in the 1960's...


If you have any luck with finding one let me know .
Ive been purchasing regent and Med grade chemicals in one pound jars for many years now and still dont have some of the chems my old sears Jr scientist kit came with (seems some are now on a government list.
I have had luck picking up lab glass , centrifuge and other equipment off ebay
I havent been to a MARS get together in 15 years , I might have some old tubes you might find useful.


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## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

Jim-mi said:


> One thing folks could do now is look at and think about plans for Taa-Daa.......an outhouse. . . .lol.


No way! It gets cold outside in the winter and sometimes treacherous.
And in the summer there are scary critters out like raccoons and possums and what might be a saber toothed coyote but it might also be one of the house cats... 

Now maybe a sawdust toilet (could use dirt if you run out of sawdust). That's something I could get enthusiastic about.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

PyroDon said:


> you just hit one of the major reasonings for not giving up without a fight .
> I know insulin needs refrigeration .
> many modern medicines can be frozen and extend their shelf life (I dont know if thats true for insulin as most of my research has involved anti-biotics and pain meds)


On the instructions for the type I take it says do not freeze. If frozen or gets to cold it gets cloudy, then throw away. Besides I only have about a one or two month supply. Then the bad times start.


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

> Now maybe a sawdust toilet (could use dirt if you run out of sawdust).


Get a luggable loo from Cabela's and a couple years worth of kitchen size garbage bags.


Question about diabetes. What happened 200 years ago? Was there an alternative therapy available? With hypothyroidism I can treat the symptoms, not the problem, with herbal meds.


.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2009)

uyk7 said:


> Question about diabetes. What happened 200 years ago?


It was a terminal illness.

Here's some history:

http://www.med.uottawa.ca/medweb/hetenyi/rakobowchuk.htm


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Pyrodon, your post seems to me to be little more than a troll post, but I'll go ahead and give my comment anyway.

You'd better be prepared to go just as far as you need to.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Pyrodon, your post seems to me to be little more than a troll post, but I'll go ahead and give my comment anyway.
> 
> You'd better be prepared to go just as far as you need to.


I doubt you'd consider it a troll from anyone else but that aside .
its one thing to be prepared to give up what you can't repair or dont have the knowledge to do , Its another to roll over and give up everything for no good reason.
Consider after the smoke clears who will be in a place of power.
those with knowledge . Why because they have something to offer that others dont. Look at how long it took for the telephone and light bulb to be seen as needed tools, heck look at computers 20 years ago they were novelties today they are everywhere. It took roughly 10 years for the tractor to replace the team of horses why? because a tractor could do ten times the work in 1/10th the time with far less maintaining. 
to simply cast such things aside would be quite foolish .
It comes down to a difference between surviving and living.
You can survive on very very little but it takes knowledge to live .
as an example look under many bridges in cities. The winos survive but do they live.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I'm giving up nothing.

As long as the sun shines, I'll have power... at least in the daytime.
The computers, dvd's, lights, stereos, will all run off of dc (and have inverters for those appliances that don't like dc).

I have small size solar bank, and several portable panels.

My water system will stay exactly the same... a gravity flow system.

My heat will stay the same... free natural gas (will shut the well off from the pipeline, if thstf, and have it only feed my home).

About the only thing I wouldn't have is internet and up to the minute news... (I would, if there's any Hughes satellites still operating). However, I have hundreds of cds full of websites stored on discs. I could read for probably a decade on what I have stored up. [http://www.cd3wd.com/CD3WD_40/CD3WD/index.htm is one site] Also have hundreds of thousands of hours of old time radio programs, 30 or 40K cd's, three to four thousand dvds, svcds, and vcd's.

I'm giving up nothing...


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

Like many, I have no interest in returning to the dark ages. I would probably employ as much technology as I deemed worth the effort.

For example, I too, love a cold glass of iced tea in the heat of the summer. However, I expect I would probably be willing to settle for a cool glass of tea from a jug I kept down at the creek and not have to go to all the trouble of engineering a unit to make ice. OTOH, if there is something I consider critical to our health and safety, then I would make every effort to come up with a replacement.

That is why I am working hard to identify all those things that are critical to us and then learning how to do them.

One side note, we keep sheep and I have learned how to spin, weave, knit, and crochet. However, I learned those things more as hobbies than as survival skills. The fact is that it would be much easier to maintain enough fabric in plastic bins to clothe family and probably even grandchildren for a looong time than for someone to learn how to keep sheep, build the facilities, maintain them, buy the sheep, learn how to shear them, learn how to scour the wool without an electric washing machine, dry it properly, pick and clean it, get a wheel, learn to spin, and then learn those other processing skills. Yes, I do enjoy spinning and I have taught my dd how, but I am not counting on it as an essential survival skill. IMO, my time would be better spent learning how to grow and process the proper combination of herbs to replace dh's blood pressure medication. I know our supply of that cannot be easily stored. I think we might need to be selective in picking our battles at this stage of the game.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

texican said:


> I'm giving up nothing.
> 
> As long as the sun shines, I'll have power... at least in the daytime.
> The computers, dvd's, lights, stereos, will all run off of dc (and have inverters for those appliances that don't like dc).
> ...


Im with you texican 
my battery bank serves a dual purpose as transportation if needed.
with a bit more gearing down I could till a garden nicely with the golf cart.
It also provides a durable water tight mobile battery storage.
I have one small wind turbine currently online with three PM motor turbines in the works.
You have a gas well too dont you? 
with a NG genny you could be set for heat power hot water the works and hardly know that anything happened .
Think about it with hot running water the women would be beatin down your door :rock:


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

I don't plan on going back to the dark ages, but I do plan on being able to heat my home and cook, store food and be comfortable even in an extended power outage.

My ranch is completely surrounded by National Forest. It is in the mountains, and the San Andreas fault runs along the base of my mountains. If the "big one" ever hits, I can expect to be without power for days, weeks or even months. When they restore power, they will restore it to high population areas first. My place is pretty remote.

I could be snowed in, and not be able to leave. Who knows. There could be a pandemic, where it isn't safe to go out. 

So being prepared is the most sensible path.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

Texican,

on the DVD's, did you convert them over to avi or xvids, or just leave them as DVD format? I have been slowly converting our movies over to xvid (around 700 MB to 1.4 GB for quality versus the 4.4 GB or even higher) to save on space and discs. 

I also have been collecting up old radio programs, the kids love the mystery ones, and wife likes a few herself. My wife's latest kick has been audio books for here special ed kids at school to go along with the hard copy.

Does anyone think that we would ever have to go back to steam power? I looked into, but as most things, cost effectiveness hampers my spirit......


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

The dark ages weren't the result of a lack of technology, but of politics and environmental factors. Technology regressed due to lack of infrastructure to support it. Even in the relative low technology of the time, there were bottlenecks - things that couldn't be sustained without that infrastucture.

The day after the Roman Empire fell, all the blacksmiths, farmers,metallurgists, stonecutters, scribes, apothecaries etc. didn't just die or forget everything they knew. There were obviously other factors at play: Lack of food, barbarians trying to kill them, disease, local warlords imprisoning them for whatever reason, being pressed into military service, etc., etc.

There are far more technological bottlenecks now than in the 4th century. Compounding this is the fact that we generally work at a level that is several layers of abstraction above 'base' technology. Should things dramatically blow up now, as they did then, scavenging could make up for these bottlenecks for some period of time, but again, it wouldn't be sustainable.

I'm an engineer by profession, and I practice bootstrap technology as a hobby. I can and have made generators with wires and magnets. I have everything I need to measure voltage, current, build the regulators, governors, and inverters neccessary to produce usable electricity. I have all the same books and pdfs you do, stored in a variety of formats and locations, but it still isn't sustainable.

Take voltage regulation, for example: I only have so many semiconductors on hand and other than scavenging and cannibalizing other equipment, I wouldn't have access to more, and I'll never be able to make my own semiconductors. Possibly, I could make vaccuum tube equivalents and possibly mag amps. The problem there is, who is going to feed me and my family while I'm experimenting and building one-off vaccuum tubes? Who's going to keep the barbarians with automatic weapons away while I'm doing this?

I'm keenly interested in the preservation of technology. The best way I know to do that though is through the preservation of community on the small scale, and civilization on the large scale to prevent the collapse in the first place.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

We have lived without water for 3 years...and just this week we finally got water...we now have a sink, a washer and dryer and a Dishwasher.. the shower will come in about two weeks...

We started out with *no water* for two years.. had to haul water for everything..bathed outdoors in a makeshift shower, washed dishes from heated water, did laundry by hand and hung to dry and used a sawdust toilet... we did much better than I thought we would after being so accustomed to all water amenities our whole life...then about a year ago rural water was brought out here and we had hose water from about 2 hundred feet away...life was good..no more hauling water we felt rich!...and now this week I can turn water on in a sink, wash clothes with a washer and dishes automatically...but still taking shower outdoors ( 38 degrees this morning brrr)...life is grand!

My point being no matter how spoiled we once were.. when life changed we met the challenge...and i have no doubt that we can do anything we have to do and (this is the important part here)..we will still think life is grand and that we are blessed...


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

seems some are purposely missing the point.
I doubt in such a case that all technology would survive nor would it be required.
still theres little point in saying it has to go .
a freezer or fridge means less wasted food safer storage.
an LED flash light provides more light with less energy than an oil lamp or candle and isnt effected by wind nor present a fire hazard.

Personally I like wind generators because I can build them from scratch so if they break down I know how to fix them. they are simple, other the the formulas to figure out how many turns go in the coils they are pretty low tech.
solar cells will give 20 + years of service .
Im not talking about trying to stay at the present rate of consumption . Im talking not foolishly abandoning a resource. Only a fool would not use every resource available to them. 
this goes for things other than electricity as well .
everyone seems ready to abandon using equipment. 
look at it like this to keep and feed a horse over winter your going to spend a month at the very least cutting and putting up hay . for that month you get an acre of ground tilled. Ok sounds fair . Now using fallen fruit and spoiled grain you can produce 5 gallons of 180 proof alcohol , using a simple two wheeled tractor and 5 HP internal combustion engine you can till 2 acres with some left over for a night cap .
It comes down to the old saying of "Work smarter not harder"


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## Mutti (Sep 7, 2002)

I believe in books.....I have books on just about any subject....it is a standing joke that mom will somewhere in the converstaion say "I have a book about that"! I'd sure miss the internet but still could manage food,heat, hotwater and we have accumulated a lg. store of hand tools for any job. Have four sons for muscle,too! And each is handy in his own right. Figure life will go on in some fashion and people will always be striving to make things better and easier. DEE


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

hmm - just a few knee jerk reactions to this.

Yes, a horse can only plough an acre a day - a tractor can undoubtedly do more. But just how many acres are you planning on ploughing - are you feeding the masses? or your family?

For your 5 gallons of fuel, you are using fruit and grain that OK, may be past human consumption but COULD go to feeding your poultry or pigs. And how much fuel are you going to BURN to distill that amount of alcohol?

Your 2 wheel tractor will have no other use except to till that ground - your horse can pull a mower, a seed drill, a hay-rake, a cart, a sled, a trap, or be ridden across rough ground/jumps if needed.

The horse can to a large degree be allowed to find it's own food on grazing for part of the year and still do light work on just that - the tractor cannot work at ALL unless you are putting in your precious fuel.

And one othr thing a horse can do that a tractor will never do - make baby horses (or baby tractors for that matter LOL)

Just a few thoughts 

hoggie


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

joseph97297 said:


> Texican,
> 
> on the DVD's, did you convert them over to avi or xvids, or just leave them as DVD format? I have been slowly converting our movies over to xvid (around 700 MB to 1.4 GB for quality versus the 4.4 GB or even higher) to save on space and discs.
> 
> ...


I've left the discs in dvd format. Have close to a thousand in svcd and vcd... I prefer the movies stored on disc instead of hard drives. Of course, now I'm thinking about getting several 1Tb external discs, converting the movies over to a compressed format, and putting them on hd's... and put the hd's in a 'faraday cage', aka ammo can.

There are a couple of really good yahoo groups out there that share old time radio programs... One of them recently put out All of the known programs, from A to Z, on dvd's... I only caught about half of them... course, had most programs already recorded on cd's. But dvd backups are even better!

Steam power is old reliable technology.....but it requires fuel. Chopping wood gets old in a hurry... Bypass that by going solar, Now! It's easier acquiring solar panels now, than it'll be later... just imagine trying to put together a steam powered plant, post EOTW. Doing 'that' now would be muy difficulte...


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

I think the key is sustainability and to be able to work with whatever you have to work with. One of the best lessons my dad ever taught me, was to start a fire with two sticks. After I was done, he asked me what I'd learned from the experience and I told him "that I'd always carry an extra box of matches" - which was exactly what he wanted me to learn. To his mind (and mine) no one truly understood the importance of the easy way until they'd done something the hard way.

I think the guiding principle for those of us who prepare for the dark ages is, that if you know how to do things the old way, technology is liberating. If you don't, it's a crutch and a vulnerability.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I plan on utilizing whatever I can to ensure my family's survival and hopefully some comforts. 
I have solar panels with batteries in place to run my pump and fan on the boiler for heat and hot water. I have a few small windmills to set up this year for added electricity. I like the idea of using led lights powered by renewable energy because I know I have batteries in place, and can recharge them. I can also run a laptop, tv, fridge, fans, pumps, etc. 
It would be nice if I had fuel to run my chainsaw, tractor, and truck, but I am prepared to not use them if necessary. I do like some of the old fashioned ways of living but find modern technology valuable as well. 
I don't plan on relying on propane either so now I have a wood burning cook stove, solar oven, and solar water heaters. 
I think it's good to use whatever resources you can to get by, new or old. 
This thread kind of reminds me of the mad max movies, where people just used whatever they had, a combination of primitive and modern. 
I didn't know some of that about batteries , very interesting.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Just thought to add, I wouldn't mind if we ended up going back to a little more horse power and a little less cars to slow things down a bit. Every Sunday I go to Iowa to work and watch the Amish with their buggies. I often think that sort of transportation would be so much better. I can just see myself with a pony cart, solar panel attached to the roof, checking the latest news on my laptop.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

hoggie said:


> hmm - just a few knee jerk reactions to this.
> 
> Yes, a horse can only plough an acre a day - a tractor can undoubtedly do more. But just how many acres are you planning on ploughing - are you feeding the masses? or your family?
> 
> ...


Excellent points Hoggie!


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

> =hoggie;3677876]
> For your 5 gallons of fuel, you are using fruit and grain that OK, may be past human consumption but COULD go to feeding your poultry or pigs. And how much fuel are you going to BURN to distill that amount of alcohol?


 truth be told considering you only need around 160 degrees to distill alcohol none it can be done very simply using the sun
again knowledge is the key many think one must boil the mash but all that does is add water .



> Your 2 wheel tractor will have no other use except to till that ground - your horse can pull a mower, a seed drill, a hay-rake, a cart, a sled, a trap, or be ridden across rough ground/jumps if needed.


strange the two wheeler could pull anything a team would in the field



> The horse can to a large degree be allowed to find it's own food on grazing for part of the year and still do light work on just that - the tractor cannot work at ALL unless you are putting in your precious fuel.


and the horse wont last through the winter without hay, then of course you have the oats and lest we forget eating too much green grass in spring will cause them to founder.
conversion rates taken into account a horse let alone a team will eat more grain than is needed to produce the alcohol. true it's not near so romantic as harnessing a team and spending a min of an our a day on their care .
resourse wise a horse is not effecient even in pioneer days oxen were used more than horses for plowing and such in part because they were easier to maintain and could could far more plowing in a day than a horse.



> And one othr thing a horse can do that a tractor will never do - make baby horses (or baby tractors for that matter LOL)


and a tractor wont die in labor nor have to be excused from working while its pregnant


hoggie[/QUOTE]


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

I don't plan on returning to the dark ages, but if some massive event were to cause the end of the world as we know it I think there is enough junk around here to be living much more comfortably than any dark age fella. Give me a pile of junk and I'll come up with something. I have been known to repair tail light lenses using nothing more than a butter knife and a hot fire (the vehicle that the tail light is attached to probably won't be much use in a dark age scenario though). I went on a camping trip last year and forgot silverware, and plates. My friend and I took a canoe so instead of making a long trip back for supplies we just carved 'em out of wood, and split slabs for plates. Just gotta be creative and keep a clear head.

As far as horses go, unless you plan on having a large operation where you are growing food for many people I wouldn't waste my time and effort with one. The average person would be better off riding a bike. If I was feeling exceptionally lazy and didn't want to till the garden I would use a chicken tractor and some chickens. No fuel involved, no parts to break, and best of all I don't have to do the work so I could concentrate on other things like chopping fire wood. Chickens do a pretty good job of breaking up the soil and plus they produce eggs to boot. Admittedly moving large objects over long distances would be much easier to accomplish with a horse. However making fuel out of alcohol isn't too tough. It would be a once in a while ordeal anyway, if the thing blew up so what, chances are there would be plenty more vehicles/tractors in the area that could also be used. 

Since I live in a rather large house I would make it so I would only heat one room. Not because the heat would cost anything, but more because I don't want to spend half the summer chopping wood by hand. Things that would be a little tougher would be pumping water, the wells that are on my property are fairly deep. A conventional hand pump probably wouldn't do much, but I am sure there are other ways of overcoming such difficulties. There are a multitude of ponds, lakes, rivers near my house. There is a private lake in the woods behind my house. It is about a 8th of a mile from my place, wouldn't be fun but it would be doable to haul water if I had to. 

Lighting would be tough, because eventually the batteries would go bad. I guess some sort of improvised alcohol burning lamp would work but it probably release too much in the way of gasses to safely use indoors. Lately I have been pondering this question myself but I am sure there is an easy and simple solution to it.

I guess if someone is healthy there is no reason to return to the dark ages, just be creative.


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

If I remember that is 172*F - but exactly how much grain/produce are you going to have to use to create your mash. And let's not forget that for 5 gallons of mash, you will end up with, what? 1/2 gallon of pure alcohol? - which isn't going to get you very far when pulling a load, ploughing or whatever. And I would suggest that if you have that much spoiled fruit, bad grain then you would be better putting your tech skills to finding ways to have less wastage? And whilst you may be able to create that using a solar still, there are many people who would struggle to do that for a lot of the year.

The use of a horse really does depend on where you live - yes, some hay for the winter which the horse is quite capable of helping you mow and cart. And they only really need grain when they are working hard - when only doing light duties they don't need a huge amount. 

As for laminitis (founder) a horse working for it's keep is HIGHLY unlikely to develop laminitis - in the days when horses worked for a living it was almost exclusively known as an ailment of ponies which keep too well and don't do enough work. A horse working isn't going to get overweight like that. And he isn't going to be doing the kind of work to develop concussive laminitis either. Having kept horses for 30 years I can honestly say that the only case of laminitis I have EVER had was in a re-home pony who had had it previously and so was prone to it. I have no romantic notions of working by horse - I know EXACTLY how much work goes into looking after them and exactly how much feed they use. 

I would be interested in seeing your figures as regards the grain for feeding a horse vs. producing alcohol?

And as I recall it - oxen were known for their lack of speed - they had huge traction, but were very slow. 

And yes, a horse CAN die in labour, but so can a cow or a goat - is that going to stop you keeping a milk animal too? A horse does not necessarily have to stand down from work whilst pregnant - it used to be the norm for pregnant mares to be worked in chains to make sure their was no problem with the shafts.

And if it was really dire straits time, a horse "CAN" work when it's lame (not that I am recommending it, but it could be done) - if your tractor is broken down there is nothing you can do except fix it.

hoggie


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

Phil - my experience with chickens is that you still need to dig the ground after they have cleared it off. They tend to only scratch the top and then trample on it again.

hoggie


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

I think this illustrates the differences and abilities of us. Some people couldn't use a horse with directions written on its tuckus. Some people can't mix salad dressing together much less a still. Some can do both. I still say sharing of knowledge is really key here and those that seem to have it aren't necessarily sharing it.... 

Hoggie,
With a deep bedding chicken tractor one can get away from some of the digging.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

dont get me wrong Im not anti horse Im just pointing out the facts.
the reason things went from the horse to gas was cost
It costs more to maintain a horse for a year than to maintain a gas engine or even a steam engine. Not in money but in time effort and material.
for those hoping to use horses I suggest you try it for a year
harvest enough hay using the horse and hand to keep the horse supplied for a winter . I believe for a draft horse according to the statements from the 1800s it was roughly 6 tons of good hay per horse and a half ton of oats this is strictly for winter.
now add in hauling water to the animals daily care, time spent hitching and unhitching.
calories alone its very expensive add in lost time


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## vegascowgirl (Sep 19, 2004)

> and a tractor wont die in labor nor have to be excused from working while its pregnant


 

A healthy mare CAN work while pregnant. In fact it's best for their health. Unless the mare has a history of bad carriages there is no reason to put them in the barn untill very late in the pregnancy.
Plus, as anybody who's been around horses knows...they're no more difficult to keep than any other animal on your land. As far as founder goes. Rarely do horses who have regular access to pasture/forage, founder because they've ate to much. As Hoggie pointed out founder is laminitis. A ailment that causes the coffin bone (which is tear drop shaped) to rotate and peirce (sometimes completely through) the softest part of the hoof. When I see it, it is usually with older horses that are no longer ridden and usually kept confined in a stall.

However, if you're not for horses, oxen, mule, donkey, llama, or any other "beast of burden" that is up to you. BUT don't consider me as living in the dark ages because I choose NOT to run a smoke belching, loud, stinky tractor. 
I do see your point on being able to run a fridge or something, but not everybody sees having no power as a detriment.


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## vegascowgirl (Sep 19, 2004)

PyroDon said:


> dont get me wrong Im not anti horse Im just pointing out the facts.
> 
> for those hoping to use horses I suggest you try it for a year
> harvest enough hay using the horse and hand to keep the horse supplied for a winter .
> ...


Most people don't feed oats to their horses unless they are doing heavy work or are performance horses. In the winter a horse is usually not working that hard, so feeding oats just puts unneeded weight on. The theory that it keeps them warmer is not necessarily true. While it may help, in the long run the added weight isn't worth it. Sure it takes time to cut hay by horse...AND? So basically your facts state that it costs more because it takes time and effort. So does working on the tractor that just broke it's axle or blew an engine. Both ways tech, or low-tech are going to have it's pluses and minuses. You don't know that your way will work in a TRUE emergency. You don't know that the low-tech way will work either. We just trust in our ancestors and in our knowledge to get us through the way we know how. No matter what knowledge that is..


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

hmm - well, I guess the Shire horse is the John Deere of the horse world. If you are running a big farm, with a lot of ploughing heavy work to do then Shires or clydesdales or something of that ilk is needed - just like big farms use mega tractors.

If we say that a Shire horse weighs in at around 2000lb, the usual formula for a horse's feed is between 2 - 2.5 % bodyweight
which is 40 - 50lb / day depending on teh amount of work being done.

50 lb x 365 is 18,250 lb or 8.147 tons - that is total food for the whole year - hay and grains

But not everybody would need Shires in the same way that not everybody needs a mega-tractor.

There are lots of smaller workhorses that are more compact and eat a lot less, and can do most of the work that a bigger horse can. 

If we are really comparing the horse vs. tractor - we should also take into account that the tractor fuel will require you to grow large quantities of grain, which needs a lot of cultivations of your land - at least ploughing, harrowing, seeding, rolling, and then mowing, binding, threshing and carting. 

Hay (which must always form the major part of the horses diet) needs cutting, turning and carting.

hoggie


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

tab said:


> I think this illustrates the differences and abilities of us. Some people couldn't use a horse with directions written on its tuckus. Some people can't mix salad dressing together much less a still. Some can do both. I still say sharing of knowledge is really key here and those that seem to have it aren't necessarily sharing it....
> 
> Hoggie,
> With a deep bedding chicken tractor one can get away from some of the digging.



Thank you tab - I didn't know that 

hoggie


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

vegascowgirl said:


> Most people don't feed oats to their horses unless they are doing heavy work or are performance horses. In the winter a horse is usually not working that hard, so feeding oats just puts unneeded weight on. The theory that it keeps them warmer is not necessarily true. While it may help, in the long run the added weight isn't worth it. Sure it takes time to cut hay by horse...AND? So basically your facts state that it costs more because it takes time and effort. So does working on the tractor that just broke it's axle or blew an engine. Both ways tech, or low-tech are going to have it's pluses and minuses. You don't know that your way will work in a TRUE emergency. You don't know that the low-tech way will work either. We just trust in our ancestors and in our knowledge to get us through the way we know how. No matter what knowledge that is..


ahh but see your thinking currently
while its true currently people dont work their horses much during winter if they are depending on the horse for transportation and as a tractor substitute they will be working all winter .
People arent stopping to consider that they will be using the creatures to skid logs for firewood, haul the hay in , plow cut and cultivate as well as drag the wagon during harvest.
I would suggest looking into the feed used on a average amish farm then consider the amount of work your looking at . keep in mind generally the amish tend to work as a community when harvesting , putting up hay and tilling the soil.
for some entertainment as well as a bit of a wake up watch the PBS searies pioneers,(i think thats what it was called it may have been something along the lines of prairie home) there were actually a couple of these series one based in canada one I believe montana both very telling.
I have not said it wasnt possible to go the low tech route I said it would be foolish to turn your back on resources. a person can survive on very little .
But why make things harder than they have to be .
Ive used my way in emergencies so yes in part I do know they will work.
Most of my equipment is over 50 years old some nearly 100. It works not out of hobbies but do to necessity. I dont tell anyone something can't be done because with effort anything can be done


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

hoggie said:


> hmm - well, I guess the Shire horse is the John Deere of the horse world. If you are running a big farm, with a lot of ploughing heavy work to do then Shires or clydesdales or something of that ilk is needed - just like big farms use mega tractors.
> 
> If we say that a Shire horse weighs in at around 2000lb, the usual formula for a horse's feed is between 2 - 2.5 % bodyweight
> which is 40 - 50lb / day depending on teh amount of work being done.
> ...


something not touched on concerning horses for heavy work is that at some point the horse needs to replenish. which is why most farming Back in the "good old days" used oxen for heavy work. oxen would eat their fill at night hand chew cud all day .
yes the horse type will be making a difference as well your not6 going to pull a plow with arabians very often nor will most need a shire or large draft breed. 
unless of course your planning on farming ten acres and bailing hay in which case a team of Belgian's and the back half of an old WD will come in quite handy (you'll see such things in use by the amish)


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Well I guess that it is a good thing in knowing my neighbors that have several Fresian(sp?) horses...

Pyro, I forgot that I have several alcohol stoves in my mess kits/ survival gear.. I could use the bruised fruit and trade for grain to make 180 proof hooch. I already have the copper tubing, containers, and assorted necessary equipment to assemble a still.. Living on 80 acres of timber, fuel for heating the mash is no problem.. Hey potato vodka could be another option...

So if knowledge is the all important factor, will I wind up as "King" of the area post TSHTF???










Plus, I guess that a donkey could come in handy also..


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

PD, this is a good thread, although it has taken me a while to read through it. I don't plan on going back to the dark ages, but I plan on being able to survive them if they come to me. My theory is, the best prep is knowledge. I try to make sure I know how most of the important stuff works, so I can make do as necessary. 

In the event of a EOTWAWKI situation, I suspect we will have a mixture of old and new technology being used. The second most important thing is to be able to adapt and overcome. The MOST important part is to be assured of what will happen to you if you don't manage the second most important thing.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

deaconjim said:


> PD, this is a good thread, although it has taken me a while to read through it. I don't plan on going back to the dark ages, but I plan on being able to survive them if they come to me. My theory is, the best prep is knowledge. I try to make sure I know how most of the important stuff works, so I can make do as necessary.
> 
> In the event of a EOTWAWKI situation, I suspect we will have a mixture of old and new technology being used. The second most important thing is to be able to adapt and overcome. The MOST important part is to be assured of what will happen to you if you don't manage the second most important thing.


actually If need be I too plan to survive the dark ages but I see no point in going without a fight. Our best weapon for survival is our brain . we should use all things at our disposal in the best way possible.


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## Henry (Mar 1, 2006)

This idea of going back to the dark ages brings back funny memories. In the early 70s when our families learned of our homestead in the northern bush they were aghast. Many of our relatives would not come see us until we had indoor plumbing. I use to kid my DW that we should not tell the relatives when we got indoor plumbing. 
Everyones idea of hardship is so different. We are of the opinion that doing some things like our ancestors is not being primitive but instead more likely to satisfy the basic drives that many of us have. The difference between us and our forfathers is we have modern efficient wood burning equipment and we do use some power equipment. It will be easy to give up the power equipment if the times dictate that. I can tell you that having a homestead based on wood has a calming effect. I know most who cut wood for heat resign themselves to the process. Instead they should look on wood gathering as a window to their basic needs. If I am caught up on my wood cutting you will find me using a crosscut for the joy of it. It is also one of my preferred ways to keep my upper body fit in summer. 
Hunting is frowned upon by many city people and just like the toilet prejudice they are missing the rewards of supplying the strength and ingenuity to flourish in the wilderness. I remember the first rabbit I snared in 71. It was -40 and I went out on snowshoes and when I saw the rabbit in the trap I burst with pride at my ability to feed my family. My understanding of the way of our north country has grown since then but that first rush of excitement will always be with me. 
If the eotwawki comes we will be well equipped to not just survive but flourish in the times ahead.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Let's see ... the primitive "dark ages" technology you disdain sustained humanity for over 10,000 years. The modern technology you are embracing has only been in play for about 100 years and looks to be already failing to keep us free, fed, and prosperous.

Modern farms that embrace technology are going bankrupt in record numbers, meanwhile the Amish who don't use it have tripled their land ownership in the past two decades.

The average "dark ages" peasant worked around six hours per day outdoors and home with his family. The average modern age "peasant" works 8 hours plus in factory conditions, creating products he can't afford for wages which don't sustain him. AND he doesn't get to see his family until his work day is done.

I think that so-called "modern technology" is a concept that has yet to prove out. I would almost even call it a fad.


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## TomK (May 5, 2002)

Amen Ernie! We have been shaped to believe that human labor is bad and that to progress we need machines. There's an obvious failure of the economy we have bought into when only one of my parents had to work 40 hours a week to raise a family and own ahouse, a car, a tv, etc... while in today's world, some 40/50 years later, not only do both parents HAVE to work 40+ hours a week, but one just got laid off and the house has to be foreclosed on - ***? 2 parents working was once a choice - no more, and they keep insisting we as a nation has made progress. 

The greatest CON in this country is that somehow going from one family member having to work to both parents working is sold as progress!!!


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Let's see ... the primitive "dark ages" technology you disdain sustained humanity for over 10,000 years. The modern technology you are embracing has only been in play for about 100 years and looks to be already failing to keep us free, fed, and prosperous.
> 
> Modern farms that embrace technology are going bankrupt in record numbers, meanwhile the Amish who don't use it have tripled their land ownership in the past two decades.
> 
> ...


yes with an average life span of 35 years for the majority of that ten thousand years and a 1 in 3 chance of surviving birth. 
Its a very romantisized idea that the average person got to see his family during his work day even on a farm that was seldom the case .
I do not have disdain for the past methods as you seem to claim.
I simply am pointing our why it was for the most part abandon.
No I dont have a romantic image of living in a one room soddy twisting hay with my children all night in an effort to keep from freezing to death. That may not be the picture many want but it was often a reality. It was also a reality that come spring those fortunate enough to have survived the winter often went to see their neighbor only to find they had not been so lucky.
there was one advantage to using a horse its true , that being that when the main provider lost his feet to frost bite that the horse meat might get them through to spring. 
yes such technology is recent. my parents farmed using horses as late as the 50s. there was nothing romantic about it. My grandfather left home at ten and slept in hay stacks working 16 hour days for a meal if he was lucky so he wouldnt be a burden to his parents who had another dozen to feed .
In the 40s my other grandfather died from ganggreen , an uncle lost a leg when the team spooked. 
reality doesnt always fit the image


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

What your parents and grandparents experienced was DUE to the industrial age. 

I don't get where people talk so much about the average lifespan being only 35 or so. That's patently untrue. Even in primitive tribes TODAY it's quite common for natives to live to be 90 or more. Check out the book "Stone Age Economics" for some facts. The average hunter-gatherer that the scientists who compiled the studies observed worked less than 4 hours a day providing for his family's needs. The average female worked 4.5 hours due to her care of the children. They have a lifespan greater than that of the average American today. They live in family units and when the father goes out to gather mangoes or spear a boar he takes his son(s) with him to teach them.

Frankly, I think that living without the internet and wearing nothing but a fig leaf is a small price to pay for spending only 4 hours a day planting, fishing, or hunting and doing it with my loved ones. 

For a reference, here's some stats from the CIA's world factbook:

Average American lifespan - 78.14 years
Infant mortality rate of 6.3 deaths per 1000 live births

Average lifespan in Andorra (a third world country) - 82.67
Infant mortality rate of 3.68 deaths per 1000 live births

When people consider other third world countries that have such dramatically low lifespans, it's mostly due to AIDS and mechanized warfare, inarguably problems that stem FROM the modern age. 

And frankly, what good is that longer lifespan doing us? Particularly when the last 10-15 years that you gain on the poor African goatherder is spent dying in a nursing home with no family members within 200 miles while our poor goatherder friend dies in his hut surrounded by family all the way down to his great grandchildren. 

For those who measure progress in terms of dollars and lifespan, the modern era seems like a golden age. For those who insist on other values, it's been a hellish creation propped up by the hubris of mankind.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Ernie said:


> What your parents and grandparents experienced was DUE to the industrial age.
> 
> I don't get where people talk so much about the average lifespan being only 35 or so. That's patently untrue. Even in primitive tribes TODAY it's quite common for natives to live to be 90 or more. Check out the book "Stone Age Economics" for some facts. The average hunter-gatherer that the scientists who compiled the studies observed worked less than 4 hours a day providing for his family's needs. The average female worked 4.5 hours due to her care of the children. They have a lifespan greater than that of the average American today. They live in family units and when the father goes out to gather mangoes or spear a boar he takes his son(s) with him to teach them.
> 
> ...


I suggest you spend some time in grave yards all over the country .
I get my average from US census reports they may not match a scientific study but are historic data.
Though in all honestly you seem to have gotten the wrong idea .
Ive driven a team plowing, no it wasnt bad but Id prefer my family not depend on it for survival.
when talking of oil lamps and such consider that in the 1800s most of that oil came from whaling , I dont see that coming back into fashion.
There is practical and then there is PRACTICAL.
Im sorry but reading through many of these forums its easy to see that many have developed their view of 19th century life from the romanticized view of a father through the eyes of a young girl.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

"developed their view of 19th century life from the romanticized view of a father through the eyes of a young girl." - from PyroDon's 10:17pm post

I don't understand. 

Angie


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> "developed their view of 19th century life from the romanticized view of a father through the eyes of a young girl." - from PyroDon's 10:17pm post
> 
> I don't understand.
> 
> Angie


Angie while I too enjoy the little house series it seems some have stars in their eyes when it comes to the realities of LEWs life


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

My grandfather is in a grave yard in SW Lower Mich. I spent many hours wandering through there one time. This place dates back to and before the civil war.
What an eye opener reading a very large number of the stones. 
amazing the infant death rate . . .and how many woman died at child birth. . . .and all those who died at the ripe old age of 35.

Anybody at all interested in "times of old" should slowly tour one of these grave yards.*
You will come away with a different attitude of "those times"

* Must be a grave yard that goes back to the civil war............


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

PyroDon said:


> Angie while I too enjoy the little house series it seems some have stars in their eyes when it comes to the realities of LEWs life


thanks for the explanation.

Angie


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

wow Pyro you need to go blow something up...you're on a roll tonight, first the KKK(well they do deserve it) and now you're slapping poor Laura Ingalls in the grave. 

I'm with Ernie on this one  great post Ernie, you too Henry!!!


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

Ernie said:


> Frankly, I think that living without the internet and wearing nothing but a fig leaf is a small price to pay for spending only 4 hours a day planting, fishing, or hunting and doing it with my loved ones.


well, wearing only a fig leaf in a cold climate like maine or minnesota might be a wee bit of a problem. 



Ernie said:


> Average lifespan in Andorra (a third world country) - 82.67
> Infant mortality rate of 3.68 deaths per 1000 live births


i've never seen andorra considered a third world country. it's a tiny tax haven squished in the mountains between france and spain. probably more free that other places in europe as they don't have oppressive taxes. 

that aside, i generally agree with ernie -- we've overestimated the benefits we get from technology, and grossly underestimated the price we pay for it.

there's a peak oil blogger who's written quite abit about technology, and what he sees going forward. However, unlike many others, he's extremely well-read in history, and gives useful examples of what's a happened in the past, rather than merely speculating. As one example:



> http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2008/04/specialization-trap.html
> 
> Rome&#8217;s fall changed all this. When archeologists uncovered the grave of a sixth-century Saxon king at Sutton Hoo in eastern Britain, for example, the pottery found among the grave goods told an astonishing tale of technical collapse. Had it been made in fourth century Britain, the Sutton Hoo pottery would have been unusually crude for a peasant farmhouse; two centuries later, it sat on the table of a king. What&#8217;s more, much of it had to be imported, because so simple a tool as a potter&#8217;s wheel dropped entirely out of use in post-Roman Britain, as part of a cascading collapse that took Britain down to levels of economic and social complexity not seen there since the subsistence crises of the middle Bronze Age more than a thousand years before.
> 
> ...


He has other blog entries that focus on how interdependent many technologies are. Eg, somewhere he compares the slide rule to the pocket calculator. The pocket calc depends on batteries, integrated circuits, solar cells, etc. It cannot be repaired in the field, and how it works cannot be seen from the outside. How a slide rule works can be seen. I could be fixed in the field, albeit perhaps not with the same precision. If you had a choice of which to pass on to your grandchildren, which is likely to still be working 100 yrs from now?

another example:



> http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2009/02/unnoticed-technologies.html
> 
> Like the inhabitants of Easter Island, we depend on the reckless exploitation of limited resources to sustain our way of life; like the civilizations of the Middle East whose fate was chronicled by ibn KhaldÃ»n, our survival depends on fragile infrastructure systems that few of us understand and most of our leaders seem entirely willing to starve of necessary resources for the sake of short-term political advantage. The industrial system that supports us has been in place long enough that most of us seem to be unable to conceive of circumstances in which it might no longer be there.
> 
> One of the wrinkles of catabolic collapse &#8211; the process by which societies in decline cannibalize their own infrastructure to meet immediate needs, and so accelerate their own breakdown &#8211; is that it can trigger abrupt crises by wrecking some essential technology that is not recognized as such. We are already witnessing the early stages of exactly such a crisis. What large trees were to the Easter Islanders and irrigation canals were to the early medieval Middle East, the current form of money economy is to modern industrial society, and the speculative delusions that passed for financial innovation over the last few decades have played exactly the same role as the invading nomads of ibn KhaldÃ»n&#8217;s history, by stripping a fragile system of resources in the pursuit of immediate gain. The result, just as in the 1930s, is that a nation still relatively rich in potential resources, and provided with a large and skilled labor force, is sliding into crushing poverty because the intricate social system we use to allocate labor and resources has broken down.


--sgl


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

And people thought I was nuts for adding slide rules to my preps!


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## brosil (Dec 15, 2003)

We know a lot of things that the Dark Agers didn't , like germ theory. Just a note, the widespread use of windowscreen starting around 1880 led to a 90% drop in child mortality under the age of 3. The modern horse farmers seem to be doing ok and they get a lot more exercise than tractor riders. That's good, right?
For an interesting read, try The Good Old Days, They Were Terrible!


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## diane (May 4, 2002)

I am another one who doesn't consider using animals instead of tractors is going back to the dark ages. I think the point should be, what are you most comfortable with. I personally am more comfortable with animals than machines. Fixing a tractor, trying to produce fuel for it etc. would be overwhelming to me. Working with and caring for animals is second nature since I have done it all my life.

Here in the north country we do have a bit of an advantage as we can make ice all winter and so never have to give up the refrigeration. Every part of the country has it's own pluses and minuses.

I do like to tinker and am thinking about ordering a collection of old Popular Mechanic magazines. Knowledge, both of technology and of lost skills, makes survival more possible in a changing world.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I guess I'll summarize and bow out by saying that I reject the notion that man, stripped of his technology, is doomed to a miserable and short life. While some may look on those other days as primitive, we stand on their shoulders. We have no domesticated animals that weren't domesticated by "primitive" man. All of our agriculture techniques are built on what our ancestors knew. Our concepts of freedom and family life come down from ancient days.

I have a book I've recently bought. "Principles on Feeding Farm Animals" and it's dated 1916. You get about 15 pages in and you realize that farmers of that time period were generally better educated than farmers of today. While my livestock books printed in the past decade or so will tell you how many pounds of timothy hay to feed a cow, or how much corn, this book breaks down into what elements and nutrients are present in various types of grasses and how those nutrients and organic compounds are used by livestock in various stages of their life. It's the most complex and complete livestock book I've ever laid hands on and it's now a treasured part of my collection. Most of all, it was intended for people who meant to feed their animals from food they grew on their own property, as opposed to most books now which tell you what to buy. 

So I remain utterly unconvinced that a return to simplicity is a bad thing, even if it means I have a shorter lifespan. Or might die from some disease that in our "modern" times would be curable. I don't know how long of a lifespan I have ahead of me already, so bargaining away what isn't necessarily granted to me in the first place is no loss. And even here in America there's thousands of people who die every day from something that is curable if they just were able to afford to go to a better hospital. 

Ernie's number one rule of technology: for every minute it saves you it steals back five.

Anyone with the internet knows this is true. That quick and easy research you needed to do about turnip growing suddenly turns into an hour and a half spent reading some forum. Or that tractor which saves you so much time periodically breaks down and you are forced to spend 4 days repairing it, right at harvest time and just before a big rain.

No, I remain unconvinced that modern living has granted anything to man's life. It's made us less family oriented, less religious, less self-reliant, and less educated than our ancestors.


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

Ernie said:


> I guess I'll summarize and bow out by saying that I reject the notion that man, stripped of his technology, is doomed to a miserable and short life. While some may look on those other days as primitive, we stand on their shoulders. We have no domesticated animals that weren't domesticated by "primitive" man. All of our agriculture techniques are built on what our ancestors knew. Our concepts of freedom and family life come down from ancient days.
> 
> I have a book I've recently bought. "Principles on Feeding Farm Animals" and it's dated 1916. You get about 15 pages in and you realize that farmers of that time period were generally better educated than farmers of today. While my livestock books printed in the past decade or so will tell you how many pounds of timothy hay to feed a cow, or how much corn, this book breaks down into what elements and nutrients are present in various types of grasses and how those nutrients and organic compounds are used by livestock in various stages of their life. It's the most complex and complete livestock book I've ever laid hands on and it's now a treasured part of my collection. Most of all, it was intended for people who meant to feed their animals from food they grew on their own property, as opposed to most books now which tell you what to buy.
> 
> ...


LOL - I came to my desk to write a very similar post to Ernie's, so I won't add a huge amount more except to say that, ironically, one of the few things that technology has done for us is made us more dependent on someone whose main concern is to make money from us.

People remain devoted to their technological advances their computers, etc when a book can do the job just as well.

I am not decrying all technology - I truly believe that the wheel is a wonderful thing, as is the plough  but I also believe that those are the type of things we need to be remembering - how many here could make a plough - and without that we really ARE stuffed

But I honestly do not believe that without electricity, and modern fuels, we would be back to the dark ages. The information is all there in books, written down for anyone who still knows how to turn a page. 

hoggie


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Anyone with the internet knows this is true. That quick and easy research you needed to do about turnip growing suddenly turns into an hour and a half spent reading some forum. Or that tractor which saves you so much time periodically breaks down and you are forced to spend 4 days repairing it, right at harvest time and just before a big rain.
> 
> No, I remain unconvinced that modern living has granted anything to man's life. It's made us less family oriented, less religious, less self-reliant, and less educated than our ancestors.


and you spend an hour getting the team hitched and to the field where you can work them for all of 4 hours and they are done for the day , or you foolishly work them 8 hours a day for a week straight and get to have horse steak.
or the horse comes up lame and is out of the picture for a month or more while it heals.
They both have their pro's and cons
My point was that not using all resources at ones disposal is foolish. To simply turn your back on something that works because its somewhat more modern is a grave mistake.
look at the tools pioneers had to purchase, the supplies required .
sure you can prep with a year or twos worth of supplies but when its gone its gone . those pioneers that everyone admires so much used every bit of cutting edge technology they could get , the steel plow, the windmill pump jack, barbed wire, threshers , as soon as it became available they grabbed it.
even today you can see the amish using such things sure they pull the stuff with horses but they also use the rear drive from a tractor to power the baler and technically its still all horse powered .
look at lighting alone how long will a gallon of lamp oil last? do you plan to squeeze corn for oil ? maybe acorns? have you got bees and plan to switch to bees wax candles or tallow candles? 
simple things so many fail to consider .
can you last a generation? its easy to last a year or two even a decade.
are you prepared for the epidemics that will come , remember a flu wiped out nearly 1/4 of the worlds population in less than a year, Typhoid ran rampent,as did yellow fever and countless others attacking the healthy as well as the weak. 
this isnt a scare fest its the hard reality of the good old days. 
those who do survive and thrive are those that use every tool at hand .
No where have I said dont use horses I has simply pointed out that one shouldnt handicap themselves unless there no other option.
I realize many look at the Amish as an example but the Amish are communities not a single family alone that gives them a great advantage over most. 
those who think they will hold up in their homestead and do it all themselves wont make it, they never did in the past.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I think much of our modern technology is polluted with baggage to do with civilization. Just a few examples are insurance, license, high taxes, and there are of course many unnecessary inventions that save us work. Who needs an electric razor, an electric garage opener, garbage disposal, there's plenty more. A person can sift through all this extra junk now and buy just what they need, hard to find good quality nowadays though. 
I figure if it weren't for the power bill, gas bill, water bill, sewer bill, insurance bill, and high taxes a person could get by on one income. We didn't used to have to pay all these bills. I wonder if the amish need to carry buggy insurance? doubt it. 
Some forms of technology have been around longer than you might think, Solar water heaters were around before fuel heated water. They were replaced when fuel costs were low. If that hadn't happened many of us would have solar water heaters and consider them old fashioned. If you think about the cost of heating water with some sort of fuel then this technology looks a little more appealing. Same thing with solar space heating, it's been around, before we started using horses and wagons, but humans haven't done a good job of utilizing it.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/solar/pdfs/solar_timeline.pdf


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## r93000 (Mar 9, 2009)

wendle said:


> I wonder if the amish need to carry buggy insurance? doubt it.


I can't speak for the Amish, but the Mennonite community that I grew up as neighbors to is self-insured/ bonded as a community. Course they drive autos and not buggies.


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## TomK (May 5, 2002)

No buggy insurance for Amish and you don't need insurance to ride a bike or walk...


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

TomK said:


> No buggy insurance for Amish and you don't need insurance to ride a bike or walk...


Yet 
give them time


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

I don't mind the luddite talk except when people start saying things like "Away with your evil technology, lest I smite thee with mine Kalashnikov!"


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

another great post Ernie  agreed!

let's not forget ATTITUDE is a big factor in the mix too, rah! rah!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

PyroDon said:


> My point was that not using all resources at ones disposal is foolish. To simply turn your back on something that works because its somewhat more modern is a grave mistake.


Ah! Now we're getting to some common ground. This much I can agree with.

Am I willing to discard a rifle and go back to the bow and arrow? Not exclusively. They both have their advantages. 

I prefer to adopt that technology which suits me but won't make me dependent upon it for my survival. I wish to adopt only technology which enhances my existing Christian-agrarian way of life, not allow technology to reshape my life to suit it's needs.

In short, I wish to remain the master of technology by deliberately choosing what I will or will not adopt, as opposed to becoming its slave.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Ah! Now we're getting to some common ground. This much I can agree with.
> 
> Am I willing to discard a rifle and go back to the bow and arrow? Not exclusively. They both have their advantages.
> 
> ...


where did I ever suggest becoming a slave to technology.
I personally have no desire to give up my rifle and go to using a bow and arrow (Im lousy with a bow ) This is one place where my hobby becomes valuable as I can make gun powder from chicken droppings and such, primers from a silver coin (ok its not that simple but its well with in my capabilities )
yes at some point many technologies will pass into oblivion I simply suggest taking full advantage of them until they do .


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## TomK (May 5, 2002)

PyroDon said:


> Yet
> give them time


I do believe there are some cities that require you to license your bicycle though...so far they don't want anyone to license their shoes, yet...


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

TomK said:


> I do believe there are some cities that require you to license your bicycle though...so far they don't want anyone to license their shoes, yet...


shhhhhhhhhhhh dont be giving them ideas


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Portland, Or wants to license bicycles, 50$ for two years. Says the money will pay for bike lane maintenance. Maybe. The track record for trail maintenance for ORV tags isn't so stellar. I know Idaho wants to plate all off road too in addition (or on top of) tags.

(Insert Stevie Ray Vaughan;s Taxman for soundtrack....NO Beatles version neither too wussy, Stevie got the grr)


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

I suppose I'll jump in again :stirpot: First thing, most of the old ways of doing things required lots and lots of man power. Unless one plans on living a subsistence type lifestyle it is going to take a lot more than one person or even three to do things without modern technology. 

There are plenty of Amish that use horses to do field work around here, however they "cheat" all the time with them. Such as using gas motors for sprayers and stationary engines on wagons being pulled by horses to run the bailer which is also being pulled. Also Amish horses don't last very long. I am not a horse expert so whether that is from poor conditions or working all the time I don't know. Given the choice between cutting hay for a horse or a bicycle I'll go for the bike. During WWII there were plenty of examples of people not throwing out the existing technology and going back to the horse and buggy days. Instead they learned how to adapt engines to other fuel sources. Engines aren't going away anytime soon, might as well use them. It never hurts to have a non-motor driven backup, but if the option is there I use what ever technology is there to make my life a little easier.

A few other things to think about, while more and more people pull double shifts and have two jobs, if one so chose to have a standard of living akin to the 1800s they would most likely only have to work 10-15 hours a week at 10 bucks an hour. I highly doubt our friend from the 1800s could get away with working such a little amount of time to maintain what was considered a normal standard of living at the time. I work 15-20 hours a week at 10 bucks an hour and I live about how people did in the 1930s. I am not so sure if the reason why people work more now is as much to do with having to do it out of necessity as much as trying to keep pace with the ever increasing self-imposed demands of a materialistic society. In my opinion I don't think it is because we are becoming enslaved by technology.

I would rather not spend time cutting hay for horses, putting it up in a barn, and feeding them everyday when I could use a tractor for maybe a few hours total a year doing a small subsistence garden. If TEOTWAWKI hit it wouldn't be like every tractor/truck/engine would disappear. Not to mention a tractor will do exactly what I tell it to, unlike a draft animal. My friend's grandfather once told me a story about the last time he use a horse on the farm. Back in the late 40s his family farm still had one draft horse. One day he decided to hitch it up to the sickle mower and the horse decided to go nuts. Went all over the place with the thing, banged it up real good and the bar almost took out his leg. Finally when he got the horse to stop he called up a place and they took it away for slaughter. 

In my experience having done plenty of things by hand, it stinks. I found nothing romantic about it. It is hard work, wears you out, and makes for some aches and pains from places you didn't even know existed. I suggest digging a long trench or clearing land by hand and then debating if the trade off is worth not being a "slave" to technology.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Phil
I keep several extra barrels of diesel around the house, just for such a purpose. I can break up my garden with the tractor in less than twenty minutes. I could break up a couple acres in a few hours. I agree that diesel powered equipment will beat out horses any day. In a TEOTW, I'd ration my diesel to last as many years as possible.

Will have the horse, but I'd not want to wear it out, as long as the 'red mule' is around.

To break up my current garden, by hand, would take many many days of backbreaking labor. Just working one row takes several hours... I have to do it thissaway, in order to not mess up currently growing crops in place.

Note to self: Get another barrel or two of diesel, with stabilizer.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

PhilJohnson, good post! I agree - living more simply doesn't mean we'll have to go back to beating our clothes on a rock by the river's edge.

I often think of pioneer women as I do my chores. They had a whole day each week devoted to laundry. Hauling water, filling washtubs, scrubbing on a washboard, rinsing, wringing, hanging out, then ironing with a stove heated cast iron iron. No wonder they only had a few outfits and immediately changed out of their Sunday clothes upon returning home, back into their work clothes. And it makes sense why they wore aprons and only bathed on Saturday night, sharing the bathwater.

Anyway, I'll never wish to go back to an extremely primitive lifestyle. I'm too old and soft to survive, not to mention I've never handled horses. We're prepared to live more simply than we already do, but I don't see all signs of modern life disappearing during a deep depression.


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## TomK (May 5, 2002)

Basically it's really just a matter of 'to each their own'. We have the technology to plow fields quicker, straighter, the technology is there to increase production from seeds, the technology is there to cook food fast, etc... 

IMO some of todays technology is not good, some is wonderful - depending on your circumstances and your idealogy/beliefs - whether you plant seed by horse or cook food by microwave it still comes down to each person doing their own choosing. At least we can still do that in America


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## Pink_Carnation (Apr 21, 2006)

Simple answer.....NO!

In the dark ages they didn't have plastic buckets, canning jars, woodstoves, or solar ovens to name a few. At some point it would be possible that those would wear out and we couldn't get any more but I don't think I would still be alive by the time that happened.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I don't want to be knocked back that far, but if it happens, I think most of us would adapt and possibly even thrive. Our ancestors did, and we can too. 

We won't lose all the modern information. Like others, I have lots of info downloaded, much of it printed out in notebooks. Solar panels will keep batteries charged for a long time. A gen will provide enough electric to keep the freezer going, and other things like using the bread machine, blender, etc.

We are a nation of inventors and it wouldn't be long until we came up with new improved versions of many things. Cars to run on water, recycled things to do just about anything we want done. It might take some time, but we'd come back better and stronger than before. I honestly believe that.

My youngest son loves a challenge and is talented at making something from nothing. He gets lots of practice during our frequent power outages. He did real good during a 2 week outage we had. He has sheds full of all kinds of stuff he could use to make useful things. And if we got knocked back so far that we didn't go to work and do all the time using things we do today, he would have plenty of time to putter around and invent things.


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## rickd203 (Sep 11, 2005)

PyroDon said:


> you just hit one of the major reasonings for not giving up without a fight .
> I know insulin needs refrigeration .
> many modern medicines can be frozen and extend their shelf life (I don't know if thats true for insulin as most of my research has involved anti-biotics and pain meds)


I'm going to backtrack a little because this is the kind of problem that shifts my mind into overdrive to see if I can come up with a workable solution.

My first thought was the clay pot refrigerators that are used in third world countries. Unfortunately they are several degrees away from true refrigeration. I did a Google search under room temperature insulin and saw some references that insulin should be effective for up to 28 days if stored at between 59-85 degrees. In that case, a clay pot fridge could extend it's shelf life out to 2-3 months. 

I think I remember something about a type of insulin that is designed to be kept at room temperature. Ask every doctor and nurse you meet and one of them might know the name of this insulin. 

I also know that some spring fed lakes and streams can be cold enough to have me looking like an overgrown smurf in less than a minute. If you put your insulin in a watertight container and lower it into one of these, it might be cold enough to give you a way to store insulin until winter. In winter you have to be careful not to let the insulin freeze.

It's getting late so my last idea if you have any access to electricity would be to get a micro refrigerator. The one I have will only hold a 6 pack of soda with no room left for anything. Some are even smaller but an insulin vial is much smaller than a soda can so you could get a fridge that is smaller and needs less amps than mine. All the fridges I found run on either AC or 12v DC. Several fridges made by medical companies were so small they would only hold 3-4 vials of insulin. I'm thinking that these would put the least amount of drain on a 12v battery but I'm too tired to do any more research on this tonight. 


:cowboy:


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