# Build 20x30 log cabin in winter? & Off-grid Qs



## MBackwoods (Oct 24, 2013)

So We just got our first wooded 20ac parcel out of 60ac. We have been going in one big circle on deciding what to live in. Nothing is cheaper than having a trailer dropped off. Who really wants a trailer? Not only that they are flimsy and old(ours would be anyway) they have no insulation and bad windows.​
We canât and donât really want to finance anything other than the land. It is our only debt and we should be able to pay it off in 10 years. Once we have a home on the 20ac and the 40ac is ready(its an estate atm) we will be able to convert the whole thing to a mortgage.​
So I guess right now what we are SERIOUSLY looking into is building a log cabin. My husband is one of those build-anything-fix-anything-make-anything types of people. I am not nearly as skilled as him but I can swing a hammer, an ax, run a drill(I have my own!), circular saw, radial arm saw, pretty much if I want to do something Iâm going to figure out how to do it, and do it myself. Google has the answers to most any question you have.​My husband works at a mill so we could get all the lumber we would need for fairly cheap, but we wonât be able to afford the whole package; well, septic, and power. Power apparently costs $9000 dollars to have run to our build site. So we are now boggling of how to live without power or get it cheaper.​
The log cabin will be 20 x 30 feet. We have a stick built plan to use as a guide. I already contacted the building and planning office and they said log cabins can get permits. We would be using post and pier foundation. There are more than enough downed and standing dead logs on our land to build it. I canât make the cabin any smaller, trust me, I tried. I draw scaled plans and measure all the spaces and furniture around the house to know where things will go. We have a family of 6 so 20x30 is pretty much minimum. The floor plan will be almost 100% open except for the bathroom 8âx7â, and an 8â dividing wall that creates an L shape to the kitchen and an 8x8â-10â TV nook in the corner. There will be 2 lofts 8 feet wide on both ends. These will have partial dividing walls so each one of my 4 kids will have enough space for a twin bed and a small dresser.​
We want to start building right away. I donât know how well this is going to work. We can get anywhere from no snow to 4 or more feet. Should be at minimum another month before we get anything that sticks. I thought if we get all the logs stacked at least before the snows we might be ok. I donât think the tractor is going to do well in deep snow. The temperature averages about 20degrees for the winter. Iâm planning on setting up something like a little picnic shelter and a fire pit for the kids to keep warm and dry under as needed while we work.​
Power is going to be a real issue. My husband thinks we can buy the line we need and run it ourselves and just have them hook it up. I donât know how realistic that is. Has anyone done that or heard of it? We have enough free solar panels we can get to power all of our lighting so we will at least have that. I am really terrified of gas stoves especially because I have long hair down to my waste. I have no idea what they bake like, and I bake A LOT. Not the fru fru cupcake kinda baking, the breads and dinners kind. We just bought a 29 cubic foot fridge, that would need power. Also the washer I believe. Iâd like to have the microwave work but I can live without. We use TV about 1 to 2 hours per night, and I would need to be able to run my sewing machine once in awhile. Then there is well. Apparently you can use solar to fill a tank and then gravity feeds the home. I cannot find any realistic information about this on the internet! What would that even cost!? It sounds expensive to me.​
Basically in general I am feeling really overwhelmed by this whole thing. We need to get something to live in on their by the time school gets out. We are living in my step dadâs vacation home till then. I mean they arenât going to kick us out but we were only suppose to stay here a few weeks or months and that turned into what will end up being a year. Donât get me wrong I would absolutely love to live in our own log cabin. Its just been a long year to this point and Iâm tired and Iâm not in a hurry but I really just want to get out there and start living off the land.​
Thanks a ton if you took the time to read this. I got a lot on my mind. Any information or thoughts about this crazy idea of building a log cabin in the winter or ways to get around the power problem would be greatly appreciated.​


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## RonM (Jan 6, 2008)

Get a generator for power for your building project.....


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

RonM said:


> Get a generator for power for your building project.....


 Make sure you get one a little bigger than you think you really need.....


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

They build cabins in Alaska in the winter I'm sure you can too . build an outbuilding first so you have the basics and a place to store materials out of the weather and securely .think craigslist for building materials , The faster you start the sooner you'll be done .


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## Fire-Man (Apr 30, 2005)

MBackwoods said:


> Power apparently costs $9000 dollars to have run to our build site. So we are now boggling of how to live without power or get it cheaper.​Power is going to be a real issue. My husband thinks we can buy the line we need and run it ourselves and just have them hook it up. I donât know how realistic that is. Has anyone done that or heard of it? We have enough free solar panels we can get to power all of our lighting so we will at least have that. I am really terrified of gas stoves especially because I have long hair down to my waste. I have no idea what they bake like, and I bake A LOT. Not the fru fru cupcake kinda baking, the breads and dinners kind. We just bought a 29 cubic foot fridge, that would need power. Also the washer I believe. Iâd like to have the microwave work but I can live without. We use TV about 1 to 2 hours per night, and I would need to be able to run my sewing machine once in awhile. Then there is well. Apparently you can use solar to fill a tank and then gravity feeds the home. I cannot find any realistic information about this on the internet! What would that even cost!? It sounds expensive to me.​


If you think $9000 is alot to get power to your home, wait till you price a solar system big enough to run a "electric stove for ALL this baking" + the freezer, probably a fridge, water pump etc, how about hot water?

Without knowing how much you will use your electric stove and all other electric "wattage" drawing items there is no way to figure how much it will cost you to get a solar set-up to run your cabin. If you want a guess, knowing you bake alot---somewhere in the $100,000 ++ area are should get you baking "some". Probably not as much as you described! A solar set-up and a electric 220/240 volt stove just does not work good "together".

As far as long Hair, my wife has Long hair but her Hair is Always "up" when she is in the kitchen cooking. Just taking the electric stove of the solar set-up will save you Mega Bucks on Solar cost!


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## Nathanaf8388 (Oct 25, 2013)

Gas stoves are awesome especially if power goes out you can always cook and be warm power or not. And as long as you get the most basic cook stove (no electronic ignition) they bake awesome!


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

A good old wood cook stove is what I would want and there are more than a few on e-bay nothing tastes as good as food cooked on a wood stove and cast iron !


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

Peerless Premier makes a nice gas range and are available in standing pilot or are match light is you have the electronic inigition and power is out, if necessary, no ignition bar in the oven. this the model I got my wife some years ago and she loves it, https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...=X&ei=bBRtUrLIOsfd2AXa5oDwDA&ved=0CIMCEPMCMBQ


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

First thing I would do is build a small room to store my tools in. Add an extension from the roof on as many sides as you can and you will be using it forever! Get yourself a good generator and store some gasoline.

I know nothing about log cabins; but since your county's building department will ok them, just add a nice fire place (a real wood-burning one) at each end, place a loft-type bed over one end and your living/dining area at the other. If you can, have a small root/storm shelter built under it. And while all that is going on, start stacking your logs under one of the side roofs of that too/work shed.


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## Raymond James (Apr 15, 2013)

I think you should try and build your new home using solar, gas and wood. Solar Electric for lights, computers, TV, Radio, fans, perhaps Solar hot water at least in summer. Gas for cooking , refrigeration, back up heat/backup hot water. Wood for heat, back up cooking, hot water.

Look for a Pioneer Maid cook stove with a hot water coil to heat your hot water with heat your home and cook on during the winter. Especially since your husband has access to wood scrapes. I know many people here in Missouri who do this. 

I think you have to have a backup heat source (something other than an electric powered heater) anyway. Gas with solar fan/ignition will run and keep the home above freezing if you are away during the winter time for weeks. Using the cook stove / heater will allow you to have cheap heat / cooking/ hot water but require you to load and fire the stove at least once per day. 

See if your county will let you put in the septic system yourself. Will they let you use a lagoon? If so you can put one in relatively cheaply. Mostly time and fuel to run a bobcat/dozer/backhoe. Many rural areas allow you to do this but you have to do it to code and have it inspected.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

I've built a log cabin in the winter. It actually has some advantages. Undergrowth in the woods is dead so it is easier to get logs out of the woods. Also, they slide better on snow.

There are some considerations though, one being your pier blocks. They will be concrete and you don't want to pour those in really cold weather. You might want to consider doing those now.

Some questions to think about.

How do you plan on peeling your logs?

What building technique? Butt and pass, scribed, D log?

Think carefully about electrical. In normal stick and frame, the wires easily go thru the walls. Not in log houses.

Do you have a plan for moving and lifting logs? A 30 foot log can get really heavy. Really tough to lift it ten feet.

What kind of logs can you get? Cedar is much desired since bugs don't like it. Can you get ones that taper very little over 30 feet?

In WA, my county will only issue permit for log house if you have paid to have an engineer review, approve and stamp the plans. Last one cost me about $1,000.

Here is a link to another HT thread about a small cabin I built. It might help you visualize.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sp...aredness/448048-building-small-log-cabin.html


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I'd get the trailer, and move in... buy enough strawbales to wrap around it for the winter, to insulate it, and then start building.

Solar's great, but electric stoves and other 'resistive' heat sources don't go with solar, unless your spending high five figures for a system.

Doubtful you can run wire cheaper than the electric grid folks can... Wire size gets huge if you have travel any distance, and the line losses and cost of copper will kill you.

Long hair shouldn't be an issue cooking... assume, regardless of gas or electric stove, you keep your hair off of the heat source and out of the boiling pots of whatever. With propane, you can make an off grid system work. With a wood stove, can do the same, but you'll have to 'work' get all of that kindling, and can be 'brutal' in the summertime trying to cook, heating the house up when it's roasting outside. Electric is nice, but's expensive, and you have 'diddly' when the grid goes down.

Good luck... heard that Idaho isn't all that builder friendly in winter time...


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

you can build anything you want for less than $50,000.00 do the math and do the work yourself ,Anyone who tells you different is wrong ! Thats including land .


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## MBackwoods (Oct 24, 2013)

logbuilder-
Those are great questions! 

We are planning on getting the piers poured ASAP. I have also read you can add a sort of concrete antifreeze and cover them with blankets to help keep them from freezing. Building & Planning won't issue a permit till we get a septic permit, which owners are allowed to install in our county.

Most of the bark falls right off. I'm going to use a floor scraper for the rest and to speed it up. I'm not sure thats the name, it looks like a flat hoe.

What building technique? We are debating and have been looking at other log cabins in the area and the all have different notches. We were considering squared notches so we could just use the chain saw. I'm not sure how much you need to do to the gaps. We want the logs to be really close together, and then caulk it. I will admit that I am somewhat confused here. I have seen some that put some type of insulation between the logs. I'm just not sure exactly what we need to do. Really thinking about the saddle notch with a cut out to make it fit right over the lower log.

For electrical, we want to plan it all out and then run it through the logs as we build. Not sure if the building department allows that.

To move logs we have a tractor with a scoop and a bucket, a truck with a flat bed trailer, and would also use a gantry crane.

I believe we mainly have douglas fir. They have some taper but it does not seem extreme. I will treat them with a protectant.

The person I talked to at B&P sounded pretty lenient. I think her exact words were "they want to see some kind of a plan" I will be getting more facts from them this week.

I couldn't get the link to work but I would really like to see it if you could repost it.

Thanks for the great post, its helping me see a direction more clearly.


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## MBackwoods (Oct 24, 2013)

Grumpy old man-

Thank you for that. We packed up sold our house and moved up here 6 months ago, and everyone looks at us like we are insane when we say that. I told my mom the other day we were really thinking about building a log cabin in the winter and she was silent for like 2 minutes on the phone. 

Thanks again for the heck yea you can do it!


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## MBackwoods (Oct 24, 2013)

Solar lights is a definite.

I don't really understand how solar works but I will look into having it run some of the other smaller things also.

Heat is wood stove, no question.

I will choose which I will cook with gas or electric based on whether we end up being able to afford electricity.

I think we may go with a generator for what ever is left over. I'm worried about the cost of propane compared to electricity. I also think I keep our power usage pretty well managed either way.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

MBackwoods said:


> logbuilder-
> Those are great questions!
> 
> We are planning on getting the piers poured ASAP. I have also read you can add a sort of concrete antifreeze and cover them with blankets to help keep them from freezing. Building & Planning won't issue a permit till we get a septic permit, which owners are allowed to install in our county.
> ...


Here is the link again. It is here on HT.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sp...aredness/448048-building-small-log-cabin.html

To answer and clarify.

The flat hoe type of thing is called a bark spud. I've have one and don't particularly like it. My go to peeling device is a draw knife. If your logs are big, I use a peavey for moving.

The stuff you put between the logs is called chinking. Old timers used moss. I've used mortar. There is a high dollar chinking called Permachink.

I've done electrical thru the logs. You have to plan it out from the start. On the bottom row, drill a 1" hole thru the log. When you put the next log on top of it, drill another hole. Boxes for outlets and switches require some good chainsaw work.

The logs need to be treated for two things, bugs and rot. Borate is what is used. Can spray on yourself.

http://www.restorelogs.com/borate-treatment.htm

Scribing and notching takes a lot of talent and experience to do correctly. My current log house was hand scribed and fitted to the logs it touches. No chinking required.

In my opinion, for someone new to building log houses and trying to save money and time, the technique I like is called 'butt and pass'. Here is a link to several log house building techniques.

http://ourloghouse.com/cgi-bin/olh.pl?00500


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## badlander (Jun 7, 2009)

About the electricity.

We went on the grid last summer. Nothing makes you want electricity faster than 114 degree weather. Til then we used solar panels and a generator for power.

We have done the house wiring ourselves, my husband doing the outlet and switch wiring, installing two breaker boxes and running the lines and I crawled around the root cellar and crawl space pulling lines. When we were ready to plug into the system the local power company rolled in with a pole and hooked us into the grid. When they had it done the crew boss told us that the rest was up to us. We turned on the AC and there was no sweeter sound than it roaring to life.

We started with basic wiring and are adding onto it as time and money permit. The past 2 weeks we have concentrated on shop and exterior wiring. Neighbors wired the Amish homestead they bought for 9,000 dollars. We figure doing our own wiring of our larger house with connected shop at half that price.

If your husband is comfortable with doing bouse wiring by all means do it. Start small and check with your local power co-op on prices for wiring. We got a real bargain on it from them.

The biggest job so far was digging the trench to sink the wire that ran from the pole to the house. 

I really admire what you are under taking. Good luck and don't be afraid to ask questions. There are a lot of smart folks here willing to help.


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## MBackwoods (Oct 24, 2013)

I thought you could actually put a little insulation in between your logs too. I have looked at butt and pass, but I thought maybe a different style would be better. What do you use to connect the butt and pass style. Some things have said rebar but I would think that would be prone to rust.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

MBackwoods said:


> I thought you could actually put a little insulation in between your logs too. I have looked at butt and pass, but I thought maybe a different style would be better. What do you use to connect the butt and pass style. Some things have said rebar but I would think that would be prone to rust.


Butt and pass uses 1/2" rebar to hold everything together. You put rebar in about every 3 feet keeping in mind where doors and windows will be later cut out. No rebar where you will need to cut.

Look at that link on HT. There are pictures and it will make more sense.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sp...aredness/448048-building-small-log-cabin.html


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

We built a 24x32 1.5 story on post and pier and most of it was built in the winter. We are also offgrid and now a family of 6, so I think we have a lot in common. 

We didn't do anything "smart" -- we did it all right now.
I would suggest the building of an out building first, using the construction techniques you would want to use for the house. That way your husband gets everything figured out, you can further refine the interior, and you have a place to store the generator, tools, and have a future spot for solar equipment.

Working in the snow has its challenges -- a word of advice would be to get something on site "now" -- like a travel trailer -- and then start building the outbuilding which shouldn't take too long. Then you have winter and early spring to plan and prep the build site.

You can do a robust solar solution for under $9k. It doesn't sound like you use too much power but an electric stove is really out of the question. Our fridge, well, washer, and gas dryer all use power and we get by.

Just my 2 cents. PM me with questions.


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## MBackwoods (Oct 24, 2013)

I think we are in fact going to use the butt and pass method.

What is the preferred method of chinking? It seems to be a subject with much controversy. 

Are there any books anyone would recommend to use as a guide? I like a lot of pictures and not so much text as I am a visual learner.

I checked with the power company today and even though we changed our build sight so it is 450' from the incoming power it would still cost $7000 dollars.

I guess I will go with the gas stove. I just checked and my dream oven is LP convertible. Of course i will probably get something of CL when we need one.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

MBackwoods said:


> I think we are in fact going to use the butt and pass method.
> 
> What is the preferred method of chinking? It seems to be a subject with much controversy.
> 
> ...


By far, chinking with mortar is the least expensive and it will last a long time. The technique is simple so you can get inexperienced people on board helping with just a little instruction.

Basically it consists of two steps. First, you put loads of nails into the gap. I use my air nailer with the pressure real low so that it shoots the nail in but leaves about 1.5" showing. Then I bend those nails into the crack. Second step is to mix mortar (a little less water than you would normally use for mortar) and trowel it into the cracks. Try and make it smooth. The mortar will stay in the crack because of the nails. Don't skimp on the nails. Use galvanized nails.

You might also want to check out http://www.loghomebuilders.org/ . 
They are focused on butt and pass method. They offer 2 day classes and also have an active forum. I took their class and got a lot out of it (mostly re-enforcement that I could do it).

Here is a picture to help you visualize.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Cold is a state of mind and as long as I'm in a state that's not cold I don't mind it !


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I'm not convinced that log home can be made as energy efficient as a stick built double wall house. If lumber was cheap I would definitely look at that route. You could build 18" walls, fill them with blown in cellulose very reasonably and have a super insulated home.

In the long run energy efficient housing will save you a ton of work and money and have a more comfortable home to boot.


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

Well, we started building (stick built on concrete slab) in September 1990. We were lucky that the only snow we got that year (in WV), came the week after shingles were installed. The only parts of the job we hired out, were the shingles, the well, and having the concrete hauled in. Built the road ourselves, with help from a friend with a dozer... so we were able to mark the trees in the way, to minimize taking too many out. Yes, we worked all winter. We used an old canvas outfitters wall tent for a "shed"... built a work/dining table out front and a fire ring... and also used a propane stove.

With just hubs and I working (and occasional help from the kids) it took us a year, from start to move in... and we were still working on siding, porch patio, putting in a garden (breaking sod) and terracing a hillside with herbs... while working full time jobs. Lived there 9 months before I had a real indoor kitchen.

It can be done, but it does take a toll. More than once, one of us would stalk off into the woods to let the steam escape or cry buckets in total frustration. As for the house itself: I'd researched building techniques for probably 3-4 years before we even bought the land. Timberframing would've been my choice - but the amount of work and heavy beams simply would've been too much for just two of us. As it was, it was my D who had to go up the ladder to 22' to hold the first set of rafters for the knee-walled 1/2 story on the second floor. I was simply too shaky that high up.

We never had a loan for the building process; just bought cash, each step of the way. And there is no reason a stick-built house can't be just as solid and tight as anything else. I know; I caulked against future ants...  !!

The construction methods and flexibility for electrical/plumbing are much easier to deal with... and go faster. Winter is rough to do this kind of work. Short daylight; needing tea/coffee/food more often to keep warm and keep moving... and never, ever, taking a day off until the house is closed in does weird things to people who are normally easy-going.


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## bsmit24 (Dec 31, 2012)

MBackwoods said:


> I am really terrified of gas stoves especially because I have long hair down to my waste. I have no idea what they bake like, and I bake A LOT. Not the fru fru cupcake kinda baking, the breads and dinners kind.


Maybe something like the AGA stoves then? http://agaliving.com/our-products/classic-aga-cookers.aspx


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Don't pass up the deals on craigslist , This is some 2x6x16--2x10x16--2x12x16 that I picked up for $100.00 from a home builder with left overs . about $800. retail Check around your area for salvage builders supplies stores for windows and doors at a big discount .


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