# Need ideas to get this cow bred



## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

So, we have a Jersey cow who is supposedly around 6 years old. Though it may be more likely she is around 10 (we learned never pay for the cow until you have the papers). 

Could use some ideas on what we might be doing wrong. Last year it took us 3 times till we got her bred. So far this year we are up to two times and not sure we are going to go for a third.
Details...
We leave a cedar in for a week. Pull it on day 7 then give her shot of Lute. Wait till she is goopy in the rear end and she is mounting other cows and is letting herself be mounted. Then call the AI guy and he brings out his most potent stuff and AI's her. Last time he came at night and the next morning and AI both times just to be sure. Well 6 months later she is not bred (I know should have checked sooner but she just now showed some signs of heat, blood on tail). So this we we start all over again. Have vet put in cedar. Wait 7 days pull cedar give shot. Show signs, call AI guy. He AI new years eve evening. Then this morning I go out to milk her and a fair amount of blood in the stall and on her tail.

Also, we milk he every other day only in the morning and her 6 month old calf is on her still (that is how were are getting away with such a milking schedule). She gives 2-3 gallons a milking.

So any ideas? The vet did an untrasound on her to see if she is pregnant (she was not) and said he say same good size CL on her ovaryâs and everything looks ok.

The only thing I can think of is that may be the problem is the calf is still on her. 

So anyone any ideas?:hair


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

IMHO, I think we know why someone sold a 10 year old Jersey: hard to settle.
What did your Vet suggest? If the cow isn't fed enough, putting all her energy into milk production, that could be a factor. Conversely, a fat cow is hard to settle, too.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

It might be. The place we bought her from had her running with a bull. So not sure that she has been AI before. Could that have made a difference? Everyone says is is in perfect condition. I would like to see her bulk up a little more. BTW we we bought her we were told that she was 4 years old and we have had for about 3 years.


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## CIW (Oct 2, 2007)

If you could get her with a bull. You may find that she settles.
The other thing is that I would look at is her teeth. Its harder for broken and smooth mouthed cows to digest food. Age may not come as much into play in accessing this animals breeding condition.
If all else fails, dry her up and then try to breed her. Its probably time to wean that calf any way. Just doing that may cause her to settle if she is with the bull.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

CIW said:


> If you could get her with a bull. You may find that she settles.
> The other thing is that I would look at is her teeth. Its harder for broken and smooth mouthed cows to digest food. Age may not come as much into play in accessing this animals breeding condition.
> If all else fails, dry her up and then try to breed her. Its probably time to wean that calf any way. Just doing that may cause her to settle if she is with the bull.



No chance of a bull. We only have large high strung Angus (some Holsteins too) around here. She is a smaller jersey and we had to go out of state to buy her. Plus she is on a special diet.

I think she is eating well. She gets 3/4 full 5 gallon bucket of steam rolled barley,ground sorghum,and ground oats(we grind all our own grains) in the morning and at night. Always wolfs it down like she never gets feed. Hay feeder is always full of good quality 70% alfalfa grass mixture. 
Plus we can not buy store bought milk or milk from anyone else for that matter(corn and soy allergy) so to have her be dried up that long is not really and option we would like to go. We also only have 7 acres so not any more room for any more cows.

Thanks for the ideas. I will double check her mouth just to make sure.


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

Do you have a high quality loose mineral available to her (NOT A BLOCK!)? You'd be surprised how important minerals are to reproduction.

BTW, it's CIDR (Controlled Internal Drug Release) not cedar.

Would the people you bought her from be willing to take her for breeding?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Someone in your family is allergic to milk from cows fed soy or corn? Are you sure? Never heard of such a thing before. 
Could always try breeding a day earlier. Some cows ovulate quicker. Is your AI Tech skilled? Straws stored correctly, handled properly and inseminated in the correct spot?


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

I think she sounds fine, condition-wise.
I also would not worry about weaning that calf in order to get her bred.

Instead,just get very serious about this AI.
You only tried it through one heat cycle, six months ago...right after this calf was born?

Your dates sound a bit wonky. 

10 y/old is NOT an ancient and unbreedable age for a well kept dairy cow.
Give the AI another try and then watch her closely, get her preg checked, etc.

It could take a couple of months, don't give up yet. 
Good luck.


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

Will look up the word wonky for my AI continuing ed.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

It is not uncommon for it to take 2 or even 3 heat cycles to get them bred by AI.

My use of the word wonky refers to the statement that she was AI'ed "3x" 
and now 6 months later she is not rebred.
Then the OP says the current calff is six months old too.
So that seems like the birth of the calf and the rebreedings took place at the same time. 

Is anyone writing down the dates of the breeding attempt sand the calvings?


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## Jupiter (Dec 30, 2012)

Had one of our girls AI'd & thought it took. A few months later she was in heat. Someone told us to use a tsp of wheat germ oil mixed in her feed. It worked.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Jupiter said:


> Had one of our girls AI'd & thought it took. A few months later she was in heat. Someone told us to use a tsp of wheat germ oil mixed in her feed. It worked.


What worked? Maybe if you'd worn your favorite bowling shirt when you did the AI the second time, that would have worked, too?
A teaspoon of wheat germ oil in her feed will work.... to give her a smooth shiny coat. Keep it up, can't hurt.
I don't mean to sound snippy, just that myths and superstitions have held mankind back for centuries. About time we deal with facts and move forward. I'm glad your cow is bred. It can take a time or three to get a cow bred AI.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

haypoint said:


> What worked? Maybe if you'd worn your favorite bowling shirt when you did the AI the second time, that would have worked, too?
> A teaspoon of wheat germ oil in her feed will work.... to give her a smooth shiny coat. Keep it up, can't hurt.
> I don't mean to sound snippy, just that myths and superstitions have held mankind back for centuries. About time we deal with facts and move forward. I'm glad your cow is bred. It can take a time or three to get a cow bred AI.


What Haypoint said!


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## Azriel (Dec 29, 2013)

If you have a good AI tech that knows what he/she is doing, try useing two straws and putting one in each horn, costs a little more for the extra straw but you might have better luck in a hard to settle cow. 
are you giving her a shot of Estrumate when you put the CIDR in? Then pull in 7 days, give another shot. She should be in full standing heat in 3 days, then breed 12 hours after that and give 1 more shot. If you are seeing a fair amount of blood it sounds like she is slipping the embryo before implantion. Have her cultured, she may have a low grade uterine infection


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Wait 7 days pull cedar give shot. Show signs, call AI guy. He AI new years eve evening. Then this morning I go out to milk her and a fair amount of blood in the stall and on her tail.


The blood is merely a sign that she cycled. It doesn't mean the breeding was unsuccessful. (Cows are not like women, LOL.)

Keep an eye out for signs of heat and if you don't see any, have her preg checked after the appropriate interval.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

gone-a-milkin said:


> I think she sounds fine, condition-wise.
> I also would not worry about weaning that calf in order to get her bred.
> 
> Instead,just get very serious about this AI.
> ...



Sorry for the confusion. We bought her bred (by a bull) in 2011. She had her calf around Aug a heifer. At 6 months old we sold the heifer calf and right away put 3 (yes that is correct she accepted 3 calves at once) 4 week old jersey calfâs on her (while we continued to milk her for our needs also). Then when the calves were about 4-6 months old we tried to AI her three times (the calves were still on her and we were still milking her at this time) over a period of well I am not sure how long it took(though we did have to try three times still it finally stuck) but the calf for those tries was born June of 2013. We waited a couple months then tried to AI her again. Then around a week and a half ago figured out she was not bred and did the CIDR (thanks for letting me know) thing and put us in our current position. 

Thanks everyone for the info. Kids are climbing the walls and will respond more later (maybe fix all my mistakes).:gaptooth:


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

Good luck with fixing the kids. 

I agree, with watch for heat and preg check. I am committed to continuing the practice. Makes me feel good when it works.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

haypoint said:


> Someone in your family is allergic to milk from cows fed soy or corn? Are you sure? Never heard of such a thing before.
> Could always try breeding a day earlier. Some cows ovulate quicker. Is your AI Tech skilled? Straws stored correctly, handled properly and inseminated in the correct spot?


Myself and all children allergic to corn and one to soy. That is why we raise all our own beef,pork,chicken,veggies, eggs,everything. We can not buy 98% of food and other stuff from the store. Makes life interesting.:runforhills:

AI guy is really really good he does most of the cows covering a very large area. Will talk to him about a day earlier idea.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

Bret said:


> Good luck with fixing the kids.
> 
> I agree, with watch for heat and preg check. I am committed to continuing the practice. Makes me feel good when it works.



Well I was going to do some editing on that paragrah I wrote, but now I think I will keep as is.:gaptooth:


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

willow_girl said:


> The blood is merely a sign that she cycled. It doesn't mean the breeding was unsuccessful. (Cows are not like women, LOL.)
> 
> Keep an eye out for signs of heat and if you don't see any, have her preg checked after the appropriate interval.



This is exactly what my AI guy said. So there is still hope. You know I had a class in college called "pathways to pregnancy and parturition". We learned all about the cycles/hormones/reproductive parts/etc of most of main domesticated species. You know I don't think they mentioned when/if/whats going on with the whole cow bleeding thing. Probably too much practical knowledge.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

The biggest thing I see is a single cow and trying to guess if she is ready to breed or not.

Back in the 80's ( long ago I know ), I went to AI school and then bred cows on the home place and a few for a friend. Cows that were with other cows allowing me to see standing heat almost always took first time. Matter of fact, I cant remember one that didnt.

But the friend would give the shots and then tell me when to come by and do the job. And it always took at least 2 tries. My deal was, if the cow didnt take the first time, he only had to pay for the next straw. I got tire of making the trip for free, so we had to come to other terms.

If you only have the one cow, it can be tough. She may be right a few hours before or after the tech comes by. But I wouldnt wait 6 months to have her checked either. 

Some one good at palpation can tell at 3 months. I have met 2 guys that could tell way earlier than that and be about 98% accurate.


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## Pioneer woman (Nov 5, 2009)

I myself only will use Biopryn to preg. check my cows, I use SEK Genetics.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

Pioneer woman said:


> I myself only will use *Biopryn* to preg. check my cows, I use SEK Genetics.


I havent had cattle of my own in a long time and never heard of this . Looked it up and it sounds good for a small herd. 

Learn something every day.


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## Cheribelle (Jul 23, 2007)

My vet says he can tell "pretty sure" after 30 days, then after 60 days it's "easy" the calf is the size of a mouse!


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## suzyhomemaker09 (Sep 24, 2004)

MY local travelling vet uses ultrasound after about 35 days post AI'ing.
that way there is a confirmed heartbeat with the preg check.
I don't particularly comfortable pulling my own blood samples.


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## Pioneer woman (Nov 5, 2009)

I have a small herd and we live in such a rural area that the vet charges by mileage and visit. I made the mistake of buying my first Jersey guaranteed bred and we dried her up and waited and guess what no calf. So I started researching and found this Biopryn, all the older cattle farmers out here told me I was crazy that they had never heard of such a thing. I decided I was going to teach these old timers a few tricks. I have used it since 2009 and they have always been right on the money. I ususally draw blood wherever a good vein is and the cows don't feel it. I believe the vets sometimes can do more damage doing an internal exam so I do prefer this method. Please let other small herd owners know this is an option. I believe they even do it on other animals also. Thanks


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

A good repro vet can tell at 30 days and do no harm with the internal check. Of course, I use Biotracking for my sheep and goats (because can't do a rectal with them ) and love them, and it's cheaper than a vet visit..but vets who know what they're doing don't do damage with exams. If they did, dairy farms wouldn't use them.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

Cheribelle said:


> My vet says he can tell "pretty sure" after 30 days, then after 60 days it's "easy" the calf is the size of a mouse!


I had to learn palpation when I learned to AI. The first trimester was hard because a lot of the time it was feeling tissue "slip " between your fingers. 

The 2d trimester was easy to confuse with an open cow because there isnt much to feel because the embryo has dropped down a lot and she will feel open.

3rd trimester is easy because usually you can reach in a feel the calf
s head. 


I was never good enough to palpate for customers that I did AI for.


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## Valmai (Sep 29, 2004)

Do you have a Selenium (sp?) deficiency in your soil? That can/could inhibit conception.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

You don't have to draw blood anymore to preg check. They now have a test on the milk at around 30 days. Check out the discussion and sources here.

http://familycow.proboards.com/thread/61796/antelbio-milk-based-pregnancy-testing


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

Miss Kay said:


> You don't have to draw blood anymore to preg check. They now have a test on the milk at around 30 days. Check out the discussion and sources here.
> 
> http://familycow.proboards.com/thread/61796/antelbio-milk-based-pregnancy-testing



That would be so cool! Will check out this one.:rock: 

edit: Talked to the company looks like in maybe a year or so they will have this testing for goats also(assuming the testing goes will). SO SO cool.=-)


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## suzyhomemaker09 (Sep 24, 2004)

Many thanks from me as well on this posting....

There is a local to me company that graciously sent me collection tubes for the milk sample...and at the end of this month I will be dropping off the sample at the lab. 

I'm super excited at this prospect.


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## AngusLover (Jan 12, 2014)

There are several things I see here that I'd like to comment on. Hopefully it will help. Take it or leave it.  Up to you 
Your cow being 10 is still AI-able pending no internal issues you aren't aware of. If your tech is good he/should be able to tell you if things aren't right in there.
Bloody discharge occurs post ovulation most cases. When in heat you'll see a clear discharge. I have a good feeling that the timing is off in the breeding of this cow. Happens all the time. Can't tell you how many times I've settled an "unbreedable" by AI cow or heifer just by proper timing.
Insert Cidr, day 7 remove Cidr and give a shot of prostaglandin. Heat detect VERY WELL for the next 84 hours (for a cow). Look for heightened activity, balling when she normally wouldn't, frequent smaller urinations. All signs of heat. Mounting the other cows is a great indication also but can be very misleading. It HER you want to be seeing mounted. At the FIRST SIGN of standing heat call the tech and schedule a breeding for 12 hours later. Have the tech give her a shot of GNRH at the time of breeding. This hormone shot causes her to ovulate. Meaning the semen is meeting the ovulation at the "right" time. Turn her back out and WATCH HER AGAIN for the next 12 hours. If she's still in standing heat 12 hours after breeding she needs to be bred again. Have the tech on standby. Very, very rarely are they still standing after the GNRH shot.
If she doesn't show a standing heat by 84 hours breed her at 84 hours. This is known as a timed AI and you'd be surprised (when given the GNRH shot) at how many will settle on a timed breeding. 
I hope this helps get your cow settled. Has worked very well over the years and is standard protocol for most Techs.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

Well didn't need to send in milk sample. She was mounting,standing while she was being mounted, etc.

She has had a couple ultrasounds by vets and they said everything looks ok inside.

DoubleR- It might be that we are breeding her too soon. Usually when I call to tell the AI guy the news..trying to remember..I think it about 3-4 hours later he comes. I think all the times we have tried to breed her we have only seen her in standing heat once per time. We did once we had the AI guy come AI her and then the next morning he came back out and did it again.

Worth trying the GNRH (freezer is full and she really is a good cow). One question what happens if we give her the GNRH and she has already ovulated?

Now we are going to wait a few months to try breeding her again. No way I want a calf in the end of November in Iowa.

On the plus side milked her yesterday and she up her production to 4 gallons in one milking. She usually gives 2.5 gallons.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Never did see an answer to the minerals inquiry? She is a high producing cow and sounds like she is well fed but the underlying minerals still have to be there and be in balance, too. A lot areas are selenium deficient and that is a "biggie".


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

Sorry about that. Yes she has free choice of lose minerals but...they are a regular beef cow mineral. Was getting a dairy mineral (I believe it was called Royal Dairy) for her and felt she was giving more cream with it but the feed mill will only now order it for me if I buy a ton of it at a time. 

I have seen the maps for the selenium deficiency and it looks like that is not really a problem in our area.


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