# Judgement Day in May - something else to worry about?



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

I'm seeing this on thousands of websites, news reports and youtubes all over the net now, claims that May 21, 2011 will be judgement day and the rapture, and that October 21st will be the end of the world as it all goes up in flames. Whatta y'all think of this?

I wonder if thousands of believers will max out their credit cards before May 21st.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/04/may-21-2011-judgment-day_n_804166.html



> May 21, 2011 will mark the second coming of Christ, or at least that's what some Christian groups believe.
> 
> The date was calculated by Harold Camping, the leader of an independent Christian ministry called Family Radio Worldwide, which is based in Oakland, Calif. Camping's date is based on his interpretation of the bible.
> 
> ...


http://www.embeddedworks.com/21May2011/



> The Bible states in no uncertain terms that Jesus Christ's return is set for May 21, 2011. This is the day of the Rapture when Christ will gather His people to Heaven. It is also the start of Judgment Day, the time when God will bring an end to this world because of mankind's sin. The world will remain in the Day of Judgment for 5 months (153 days) and God will annihilate it October 21, 2011.​
> What will happen on May 21, 2011?​
> On this day the âcatching upâ of all those who have become saved will occur. This is referred to as the Rapture. Two hundred million people will be rescued on May 21, 2011. They are the elect - chosen by God to be saved. It is also the Day of Judgment. All those remaining, almost 7 billion people, will witness the Rapture but will also be left behind to die sometime during the final 5 months. Many will die on the first day from a great worldwide earthquake.​
> Of this 7 billion, those who will experience the most anguish and pain of being left behind are the 2 billion people who are still a part of the churches and congregations throughout the world on that day. This is about one third of earth's population. They have ignored God's command to âdepart outâ of the churches. For them, Christ will come as a âThief in the Night.â
> ...


:huh:

.


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

If that asteroid in my thread hits,we won't be around in may for a judgement day.:runforhills:We already would have been judged:Bawling:.:smack Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
:angel:


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Not saying that I do or don't believe in a judgement day, but I don't believe that knowledge of the date of judgement day is something that God would want us to know. 

Eddie, that asteroid won't be here until 2036. I think I would almost prefer dealing with the after effects of an asteroid hit than to have to deal with a lot of angry, broke and possibly rampaging believers who will be choked for not getting taken up in the rapture on the day they expect it to happen.

.


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## primroselane (May 10, 2002)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl2.htm


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

naturelover said:


> I'm seeing this on thousands of websites, news reports and youtubes all over the net now, claims that May 21, 2011 will be judgement day and the rapture, and that October 21st will be the end of the world as it all goes up in flames. Whatta y'all think of this?
> 
> I wonder if thousands of believers will max out their credit cards before May 21st.
> 
> .


"They are the elect - chosen by God to be saved. "

The bible doesnt say that God chooses people, it says the saved are those that choose God.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Shygal said:


> "They are the elect - chosen by God to be saved. "
> 
> The bible doesnt say that God chooses people, it says the saved are those that choose God.


Right. So what happens if those who chose God and truly believe in the rapture and this new date set for the rapture don't get taken up on May 21st if it doesn't happen? This prediction is getting spread all over and reaching so many thousands of people. What if there are multiple thousands of people who are doing what the Millerites did in 1844, _"an event which is now called "_The Great Disappointment_," many Christians (Millerites) sold their property and possessions, quit their jobs and prepared themselves for the second coming. Nothing happened; the day came and went without incident."_

Really, I don't believe any of us are supposed to know in advance when our day of judgement is going to happen .... nobody can second guess God and I think it's kind of presumptuous to try. :shrug: 

_._


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

May 21, 2011? Dang it...I was almost prepared for the 12/21/2012 end of the world but May 21, 2011 is just too darn soon. I don't think I will participate in this end of the world.

Once again the numerous Chicken Little "The sky is falling" end of the world predictions that never come true from the religious groups chip away at the foundations of faith of the believers. 

I am not religious but I firmly believe that if the world is to end, and the Christian God is to make it happen he surely will not notify fringe, wacko, religious groups with any type of warning of the event. There is no need for it anyways. If the rapture occurs those who are chosen will be taken before the catastrophic event occurs and they will be chosen because of whatever criteria God has established for that privilege. Not because you decided to get right with God 5 minutes before the end of the world.

As for myself, I think on May 21, 2011 I will have one of the few beers I drink all year while waiting in my lawn chair for the end to come...If you want to join me let me know and we can have a cook out or party of some type.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Shygal said:


> "They are the elect - chosen by God to be saved. "
> 
> The bible doesnt say that God chooses people, it says the saved are those that choose God.


Wrong. It says He chooses some people. In fact, it says He chose them before the foundation of the world.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. 


The Bible is all about preparing.

The whole chapter of Matthew 25 is parables about those who were prepared (believed and followed Christ) vs those who figured they didn't need it, or would do it later.

When you are a believer in Christ, it doesn't matter when he comes.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

Anybody who tells you they know the date of Christ's return, most certainly does not know the date of Christ's return.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

seedspreader said:


> Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
> 
> 
> The Bible is all about preparing.
> ...


Amen!!

It doesn't matter what happens on May 21 if I die in a car crash today. I had better make sure that I am right with the Lord today, because I may not have tomorrow.


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## Just Cliff (Nov 27, 2008)

I guess I will make sure to have clean underware on that day.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Figures, that's my alcoholic son-in-law's birthday.
OTOH, Dh's b.day is the 15th, so guess I have to get him something?


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## countryboy84 (Dec 8, 2010)

SeedSpreader you took what I was going to say. But thanks no matter who post the truth it is right regardless. Many religious groups come up with stuff saying this or that. Yet they alway for get about that. And nother thing that makes me completly not believe in this. Not a single promise from the holy trinity has been broken, nor any words from them not been true. WIth that said I dont think that any of the book of revaltions has happen. Now for all we know that date in may could be the date of the rise of the anitchrist or the beast. But as to the end of the world no.


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## suzfromWi (Jun 1, 2002)

If only Christians go to heaven on judgement day...what happens to all the people from other religions? Sometimes religious people make me crazy with their nievity...Go to a planetarium and gaze at the skys. It may give you a larger perspective...


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## doohap (Feb 23, 2003)

seedspreader said:


> Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
> 
> 
> The Bible is all about preparing.
> ...


Amen. 

@ Suz: being "religious" is not the same as being Christian. You can find out why when you read the Bible. Remember, the Pharisees were "religious".


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

been given.



Matt 24:36 "*But of that day and hour no one knows, 
not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.*

Matt 24:37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be 
just like the days of Noah.

Matt 24:38 "For as in those days before the flood they 
were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, 
until the day that Noah entered the ark,

Matt 24:39 and they did not understand until the flood came 
and took them all away; 
so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Matt 24:42 *"Therefore be on the alert, 
for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.*

Matt 24:43 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house 
had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, 
he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed 
his house to be broken into.

Matt 24:44 *"For this reason you also must be ready; 
for the Son of Man is coming at an hour 
when you do not think He will.*


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

In light of the previous reply any person saying he has knowledge of that day would be a false prophet.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Boy are those people gonna be disappointed when May 21 comes and goes without incident!

If this charlatan is like all the others who have made such predictions, he'll announce that he miscalculated, but now has the _new, correct_ date which was personally bestowed upon him by God. 

(The founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses made numerous such incorrect predictions IIRC.) 

A close reading of the Bible suggests that Christ's followers -- the ones who lived around the same time he did, and/or knew him personally -- believed he would return during their lifetime. (Paul went so far as to advise people not to marry as it would only complicate things when Christ returned!) It is reasonable to assume that they believed such because that's what he taught them? The problem, of course, is that it didn't happen.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Actually it was Oct 12, 1971. My then hubby told me so.

Guess what........we're still here.


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

AngieM2 said:


> Actually it was Oct 12, 1971. My then hubby told me so.
> 
> Guess what........we're still here.


Yea!! 

Beam me up Mr. Scott, please!!


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

a passage. While I'll go so far as to agree that Paul made reference that it would be better 
not to marry as they would have trouble in this life; he NEVER prohibited it as it was clearly a 
'gift' from God.....only that their devotion to the Lord would be divided.......it had nothing to 
do with the Lord's return being imminent. I'm curious how you feel that 'marriage' would 
complicate things when He returns??? Seating arrangements at the marriage feast of the Lamb?

The "problem" that you and other 'so-called scholars' have, is that it hasn't happened YET.....
**********************************************


willow_girl said:


> A close reading of the Bible suggests that Christ's followers -- the ones who lived around the same time he did, and/or knew him personally -- believed he would return during their lifetime. *(Paul went so far as to advise people not to marry as it would only complicate things when Christ returned!) It is reasonable to assume that they believed such because that's what he taught them? The problem, of course, is that it didn't happen.*


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## Windy in Kansas (Jun 16, 2002)

I'd bet the odds makers in Las Vegas would give excellent odds against this happening. If they lose what would they care---no one around to collect.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I hate it when you nay sayers get all cranked up........

Look if it came out of kalliefornia it must the gospel truth........


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

As has been said - why would God let anyone know when He is coming? Either you are ready for Him or you aren't.

Perhaps these people need to read their Bible over more carefully. What happened to the Antichrist and all the things in Revelation?

Perhaps I need to find all these people and on May 20 they can transfer over all their bank accounts to me. After all, they won't be needing any cash they have will they?


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

All I can say at this point is I am glad I live a stress free life free of worrying when YOUR God will choose to either selectively pick those to be saved while the rest of us perish, or simply destroy the entire planet. This is a Loving God? So much for hate the sin, love the sinner.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

poppy said:


> Wrong. It says He chooses some people. In fact, it says He chose them before the foundation of the world.


If thats the case, then.........whats the point? :shrug: Theres no point to us being here at all if the end of the story is already known and people are already chosen before they are even thought of. Thats why I dont believe in the bible.


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

seedspreader said:


> Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
> 
> 
> The Bible is all about preparing.
> ...


:clap: 

This 'date' is a whole load of manure. Didn't someone say the same thing in 2007?


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## Loquisimo (Nov 14, 2009)

Mr. Camping has been making "predictions" similar to this for years. I believe he was the one who said the world would end in 1994. Usually such predictions don't catch on beyond the small group of deluded followers attached to the specific guy. The danger is that something like this catches on in the wider evangelical community despite the established preachers being against it. People max out their cards/build bunkers/etc. The date comes and goes without incident. Then, various nasty side effects happen, such as mass suicides and riots. 

By the way, the Bible does indeed address situations like this:

"No one shall know the day nor hour, not even the Son, but only the Father"

"The LORD shall come as a thief in the night"

I believe other verses say that anybody who tries to calculate the exact day risks the wrath of the Lord.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Shygal said:


> If thats the case, then.........whats the point? :shrug: Theres no point to us being here at all if the end of the story is already known and people are already chosen before they are even thought of. Thats why I dont believe in the bible.


It gets into election and does not apply to the vast majority of people. The Bible indicates there are only 7,000 of them but since 7 is the Biblical number of spiritual completeness, that number may have been used to make a point.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

This reminds me of the nutcase who ran the homesteader's magazine that touted Y2K. He warned his readership to prepare for world collapse. Gosh, nothing collapsed except the few nuts who went to extremes preparing for teotwawki. I think the guy really believed that human ingenuity could not work around a programming problem.

I personally know of two such Y2K nutcase examples; one fellow moved to a barn out in the middle of the N. Mexico high desert. He quit his job, cashed in his retirement, buried bills (what good would paper currency do in teotwawki?) under his barn. Pack rats dug into his stash and he was unable to recover any of it. Last I heard the guy was back trying to get a job as a school teacher.

A second such nut, computer programmer, filled his basement with staples such as flour, beans, peanut butter, etc, etc. Nothing happened and apparently they are still eating peanut butter and beans. This one really was a pitiful case; he dragged his family down with him.


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## cast iron (Oct 4, 2004)

copperkid3 said:


> Matt 24:36 "*But of that day and hour no one knows,
> not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.*


Yep, that's it.

One of the first things I think of when stuff like this comes up is what business opportunities does it present? What products and/or services could be marketed to those folks in this group?


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

FyredUp said:


> All I can say at this point is I am glad I live a stress free life free of worrying when YOUR God will choose to either selectively pick those to be saved while the rest of us perish, or simply destroy the entire planet. This is a Loving God? So much for hate the sin, love the sinner.


If your child chose to go against all of your teachings and rules, would you cease to love them?


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Perhaps you'd be so kind as to provide a reference to such a
> a passage. While I'll go so far as to agree that Paul made reference that it would be better
> not to marry as they would have trouble in this life; he NEVER prohibited it as it was clearly a
> 'gift' from God.....only that their devotion to the Lord would be divided.......it had nothing to
> ...


1 Corinthians 7: 25-29



> 25 Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lordâs mercy is trustworthy. 26 Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for a man to remain as he is. 27 Are you pledged to a woman? Do not seek to be released. Are you free from such a commitment? Do not look for a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.
> 
> 29 What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not; 30 those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31 those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.


It seems pretty obvious that he was making reference to Christ's supposed return. Eh?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

naturelover said:


> I'm seeing this on thousands of websites, news reports and youtubes all over the net now, claims that May 21, 2011 will be judgement day and the rapture, and that October 21st will be the end of the world as it all goes up in flames. *Whatta y'all think of this?*


I think Scripture is clear that we do not know the day time hour. Period.



> I wonder if thousands of believers will max out their credit cards before May 21st.


Ahhhh 'Believers' would do no such thing!:sing:


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Oxankle said:


> A second such nut, computer programmer, filled his basement with staples such as flour, beans, peanut butter, etc, etc. Nothing happened and apparently they are still eating peanut butter and beans. This one really was a pitiful case; he dragged his family down with him.


I opened my last jar of "99" carrots last week. I still keep the guns handy, well oiled, and have plenty of ammo though.  I sold the horses and all the horse drawn equipment within just a few months... for a small profit.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Ahhhh 'Believers' would do no such thing!:sing:


That's just a matter of semantics. Everybody is a believer convinced in something and while I understand what you're getting at I don't discriminate between believers of one thing and believers of another thing as fitting into some 'special' criteria for what constitutes a christian believer the way you do. In this case I'm strictly referring to those believers who are convinced that judgement day will be occurring on May 21st this year.

.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

naturelover said:


> That's just a matter of semantics. Everybody is a believer convinced in something and while I understand what you're getting at I don't discriminate between believers of one thing and believers of another thing as fitting into some 'special' criteria for what constitutes a christian believer the way you do. In this case I'm strictly referring to those believers who are convinced that judgement day will be occurring on May 21st this year.
> 
> .


Gottcha!! I thought you were talking about Believers in Christ!! (that's why I capitalized the "B" in Believer):happy:
That's who *I* was referring too. 
You are very right, everybody believes in something!!


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## Rainy (Jan 21, 2010)

Yes "I" too believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and "MY" all. I know he will come back in the twinkling of an eye, and no i do not know the date, nor do i need a date...you see i prepared in advance... I ask God to forgive me of my sins, and I accept him into my heart and life. This Man who say's he knows the date, has no clue...none of us do...it could be today that the Lord returns... and yes the Lord will love you and it will hurt him to leave you here, He gave YOU freewill... you have to make the choice... He tells you the options in the book "The Bible" just like a surgeon does before surgery.... you know the risk of surgery,but does the risks outway the outcome. The Lord is a loving Father, but a Father does punish his children when they do wrong. You may be left on this earth when he returns, but maybe from what i understand in the bible... if you are not dead as the planes fall from the sky, building burns, and literally all hell breaks loose... then you can ask God into your life.... Does a Christian know the ending of the story? Yes....satan,the devil... well he looses and is locked away in hell forever...


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

suzfromWi said:


> If only Christians go to heaven on judgement day...what happens to all the people from other religions?



We're going to party like it's 1999.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

Txsteader said:


> If your child chose to go against all of your teachings and rules, would you cease to love them?


No, I would not. Man is blessed with FREE WILL. If my son chose to go off on a path totally different from mine, as long as he hurt no one, my love for him would not change. I do not expect my children to be little clones of me, while I certainly have some of the attributes and traits of my father I am not him.

My point was simply this, and it seems to fly right over the head of you hard core Christians, if the Lord hates the sin but continues to love the sinner why would he condemn them to suffer horribly and die in an end of the world scenario? Last I knew torture and murder are not acceptable ways of showing love.


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## VERN in IL (Nov 30, 2008)

The Rapture comes after the great trib. Soo, I say no, UNLESS some sort of global theocracy is established that will demand worship(THINK: THE CATHOLIC CHRUCH)

There is still the issue of the temple wall that is still standing, and the man of sin.

Also the Prophet (Brother Stair) has not revealed it to us.


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## Rainy (Jan 21, 2010)

God does hate sin and loves the sinner, but i was always taught that when the people that were left here saw our Lord,and it says that everyone will... that even though it will be to late for them at that time, they can repent and yes suffer through the horror's,and when they die they will go to heaven.....
I want to say this personally about myself.... i do not believe in religion...it never did much for me. Hardcore? I believe what i believe, and i try and share how i believe,but i never want to shove it one's face.... ever.... my hope is that we all end up together...


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

FyredUp said:


> No, I would not. Man is blessed with FREE WILL. If my son chose to go off on a path totally different from mine, as long as he hurt no one, my love for him would not change. I do not expect my children to be little clones of me, while I certainly have some of the attributes and traits of my father I am not him.
> 
> My point was simply this, and it seems to fly right over the head of you hard core Christians, if the Lord hates the sin but continues to love the sinner why would he condemn them to suffer horribly and die in an end of the world scenario? Last I knew torture and murder are not acceptable ways of showing love.


Then you miss the point of the resurrection. Christ suffered horribly, too. Christians, along with everyone else, suffer horribly and die every day. But this life, this flesh, is only temporary. Our hope, our longing, is for our eternal life.

Do you, as a parent, change the rules you've set down simply because your child thinks they're unfair or unjust? Or do you make & keep the rules *because* you love your child and want only the best for him/her?

Does God condemn us......or do we condemn ourselves? If your child rejects your teachings and chooses a path that leads to a violent and early death, is it because you condemned him to a violent death, or because he condemned himself?


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Txsteader said:


> Then you miss the point of the resurrection. Christ suffered horribly, too. Christians, along with everyone else, suffer horribly and die every day. But this life, this flesh, is only temporary. Our hope, our longing, is for our eternal life.
> 
> Do you, as a parent, change the rules you've set down simply because your child thinks they're unfair or unjust? Or do you make & keep the rules *because* you love your child and want only the best for him/her?


I can't see a loving God wanting us to suffer horribly, neither can I see that as wanting the best for him/her.
God is about life, He made us to ENJOY the life He gave us, not to suffer through it and be afraid of enjoying it.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Shygal said:


> I can't see a loving God wanting us to suffer horribly, neither can I see that as wanting the best for him/her.
> God is about life, He made us to ENJOY the life He gave us, not to suffer through it and be afraid of enjoying it.


Why would you believe that He _wants_ us to suffer? Again, according to the Bible, we condemned ourselves through disobedience. God did not cause our disobedience. Is it always the parent's fault if the child chooses a destructive path? 

Free will can be a blessing or a curse, according to how we use it. We can follow the right path that will, hopefully, lead to a long and happy life or we can follow the wrong path that leads to sadness, suffering and possibly a shortened life. The choice is strictly up to us, individually.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Shygal said:


> I can't see a loving God wanting us to suffer horribly, neither can I see that as wanting the best for him/her.
> God is about life, He made us to ENJOY the life He gave us, not to suffer through it and be afraid of enjoying it.


He also sent us the instruction book for enjoying our lives and the one after. Can you honestly look at the Ten Commandments and tell me your and everyone else's lives wouldn't be better if we all obeyed them?


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## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

If this whole rapture thing starts in May I sure am not going to be flying that day. It would be my luck the pilot was one of the chosen ones and poof.....

I'm not too worried anyway, everyone knows the world ends in 2012..there is even a movie about it.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Get out from behind the veil of Moses people!


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

seedspreader said:


> Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
> 
> 
> The Bible is all about preparing.
> ...


I was hoping someone would post this. I'm always leery when people start trying to give an exact date, since we can't know the exact date. We will know when it's getting close though because we can see the fullfillment of the prophecies.  And I agree, it's important to be prepared, both spiritually and physically. At least this is my belief, because I don't believe in the pre-trib rapture.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

FyredUp said:


> No, I would not. Man is blessed with FREE WILL. If my son chose to go off on a path totally different from mine, as long as he hurt no one, my love for him would not change. I do not expect my children to be little clones of me, while I certainly have some of the attributes and traits of my father I am not him.
> 
> My point was simply this, and it seems to fly right over the head of you hard core Christians, if the Lord hates the sin but continues to love the sinner why would he condemn them to suffer horribly and die in an end of the world scenario? Last I knew torture and murder are not acceptable ways of showing love.


If a person murders someone, goes to court and is found guilty, is the judge the one to blame for the person's incarceration or death?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Shygal said:


> I can't see a loving God wanting us to suffer horribly, neither can I see that as wanting the best for him/her.
> God is about life, He made us to ENJOY the life He gave us, not to suffer through it and be afraid of enjoying it.


God doesn't want us to suffer. He has given us everything we need to enjoy the life he has given us. But when people walk away from God, they are condemning themselves. God's not going to force people to follow Him. He gives them free choice. What most people forget is that God is a loving God, but He's also a righteous judge.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

OR...People could live their lives everyday in a way that is appropriate for them. If for you that means tightly following the rules of some religion seeking a promised reward after you die, fantastic for YOU. If it means living your life to a standard you set for yourself, harming no one, and helping those you can, fantastic for you.

It shouldn't matter to anyone what anyone else believes as long as those beliefs don't impede yours or harm anyone.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

FyredUp said:


> OR...*People could live their lives everyday in a way that is appropriate for them.* If for you that means tightly following the rules of some religion seeking a promised reward after you die, fantastic for YOU. If it means living your life to a standard you set for yourself, harming no one, and helping those you can, fantastic for you.
> 
> It shouldn't matter to anyone what anyone else believes as long as those beliefs don't impede yours or harm anyone.


And what happens if what is appropriate for them is running around burning down people's homes? Or raping little girls? Or murdering people? I'm not saying you have to believe as I do, but I do have my own set of beliefs and the right to explain why I believe that way.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Sonshine said:


> And what happens if what is appropriate for them is running around burning down people's homes? Or raping little girls? Or murdering people? I'm not saying you have to believe as I do, but I do have my own set of beliefs and the right to explain why I believe that way.


Maybe you didn't notice FyredUp's last line in that quote of his:


FyredUp said:


> It shouldn't matter to anyone what anyone else believes as long as those beliefs don't impede yours or harm anyone.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> And what happens if what is appropriate for them is running around burning down people's homes? Or raping little girls? Or murdering people? I'm not saying you have to believe as I do, but I do have my own set of beliefs and the right to explain why I believe that way.


This is what I posted that you referenced. I am going to bold a few points and wonder why they escaped you and your need to make the ridiculous post you made to me. You really have gone beyond putting words into my mouth all the way to absurdity with your example. If you are going to comment on what I write at least pretend to try and comprehend the meaning.



> OR...People could live their lives everyday in a way that is appropriate for them. If for you that means tightly following the rules of some religion seeking a promised reward after you die, fantastic for YOU. If it means living your life to a standard you set for yourself, *harming no one*, and helping those you can, fantastic for you.
> 
> *It shouldn't matter to anyone what anyone else believes as long as those beliefs don't impede yours or harm anyone.*


Not once, but TWICE, I made it clear that no beliefs should allow you to harm anyone else as a part of your beliefs. What about that is unclear?

Of course, you can believe what you want, I never said otherwise. BUT, I also get to believe what I want, a right that seems to escape so many here because it isn't what you believe. I harm no one, I seek to harm no one, I seek to convert no one, I don't care what you believe as long as you harm no one.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> It seems pretty obvious that he was making reference to Christ's supposed return. Eh?


If that's what you *want *to believe.

He never SAID that's what he was referring to though.

He simply *said *the world was changing


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Kooks have been predicting dates for generations. 
They've all been wrong, and they will always be wrong. 

I remember back in the 60's a guy near where I lived started driving around with a Bible in his windshield telling everyone they have to be saved right now cause the world will be ending in 6 months. 6 months later when the world didn't end, he quit his job and turned into a reclusive drunk. This guy was in his late teens or early 20's. Whoever set him up to be embarrassed like that and ruined his life was an evil person.

I think all of these end day predictors are evil.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

FyredUp said:


> OR...People could live their lives everyday in a way that is appropriate for them. If for you that means tightly following the rules of some religion seeking a promised reward after you die, fantastic for YOU. If it means living your life to a standard you set for yourself, harming no one, and helping those you can, fantastic for you.
> 
> It shouldn't matter to anyone what anyone else believes as long as those beliefs don't impede yours or harm anyone.


I agree 100%. That is the point of free-will choice. I can only tell you about Christ (as I am commanded to do)....whether you choose to follow that path is strictly your business. 

Christ did not rant. He did not continue to harangue those who scoffed at or rejected His teachings. He said what He had to say....and moved on. As the old cliche' goes, 'you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink'.


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## suzfromWi (Jun 1, 2002)

Just plain hooey!!!I talk to my God every day and hes not mad at me...


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Shygal said:


> If thats the case, then.........whats the point? :shrug: Theres no point to us being here at all if the end of the story is already known and people are already chosen before they are even thought of. Thats why I dont believe in the bible.


 If thats the reason you don't believe the Bible then its time to rejoice -- the Bible doesn't say that.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Txsteader said:


> Why would you believe that He _wants_ us to suffer? Again, according to the Bible, we condemned ourselves through disobedience. God did not cause our disobedience. Is it always the parent's fault if the child chooses a destructive path?
> 
> Free will can be a blessing or a curse, according to how we use it. We can follow the right path that will, hopefully, lead to a long and happy life or we can follow the wrong path that leads to sadness, suffering and possibly a shortened life. The choice is strictly up to us, individually.


Tell me what all the kids with childhood cancers did to deserve suffering, or the kids tortured ,raped, killed daily did, to deserve suffering then?


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## suzfromWi (Jun 1, 2002)

Ok...I believe our creator gave us life and the earth. We are alone responsible for what happens here, be it good or bad. I believe he sends angels to help us IF we ask and are sincere in what we do...Cancer is a man made disease like all the others. God doesn't give us cancer or anything else...I believe the Bible is a book written by men to control the masses. If God talked to them out loud, why not us? I hear God in my head when ever I listen, but he doesn't ask me for anything. he only wants whats best for me. Its up to me to get there with his help...I believe the end of the earth will come one day, because we have destroyed it, not because of anything God does...Thats the way I feel, but Im still seeking...


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Cancer isnt a man made disease. Its been around through recorded history and then some. Its not something new, and animals get cancer as well.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

How many more years will it take for humans to get beyond believing in gods and fables? How long until we get beyond superstition? How long until we leave our caves and learn that the world is a pretty great place just as it is?

It's time to evolve!


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

HeritagePigs said:


> How many more years will it take for humans to get beyond believing in gods and fables? How long until we get beyond superstition? How long until we leave our caves and learn that the world is a pretty great place just as it is?
> 
> It's time to evolve!


Well, now. Unless I'm mistaken, you've just called everyone who believes in a diety 'knuckle-draggers'.....or maybe you're just referring to Christians. :indif:


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

No, I mean everyone who still believes in invisible friends.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Uh huh. 

Speaking of evolving..........


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Shygal said:


> Cancer isnt a man made disease. Its been around through recorded history and then some. Its not something new, and animals get cancer as well.


****************************************************
soul. We are *ALL* worthy of death, since we have all sinned. Christ's death on the cross 
was the full and complete payment for that debt. We couldn't/wouldn't be able to pay for it ourselves. 
And most marvelous of all; it was a free gift from God Himself. All we had to do was accept it. 
And there it is in a nutshell. Choice: death or eternal life. 

If you heard of someone who holds the patent to a miracle drug that will protect _*EVERYONE*_ from a 
painful and horrible plague that is sweeping across the land and he says to you: 
"All you have to do to have it, is accept it".......exactly when does it become yours? 
We all know that it 'works' because the owner's son already has already survived the 
plague that kills everyone; in fact, his blood was used to make the vaccine that cures the effects of this 'disease'.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

willow_girl said:


> 1 Corinthians 7: 25-29
> 
> 
> 
> It seems pretty obvious that he was making reference to Christ's supposed return. Eh?


******************************************************
trying to with eisegesis, then you might actually have a far better understanding of how 
biblical hermeneutics works. Most important to the first law of biblical hermeneutics is that 
the Bible should be interpreted literally. Literal Bible interpretation means you understand the Bible 
in its normal/plain meaning. The Bible says what it means and means what it says. 

Many make the mistake of trying to read between the lines and come up with meanings for Scriptures 
that are not truly in the text. Yes, of course, there are some spiritual truths behind the plain 
meanings of Scripture. That does not mean that every Scripture has a hidden spiritual truth, 
or that it should be our goal to find all such spiritual truths.

Biblical hermeneutics keeps us faithful to the intended meaning of Scripture and away from allegorizing 
and symbolizing Bible verses and passages that should be understood literally.

A second crucial law of biblical hermeneutics is that a verse or passage 
must be interpreted historically, grammatically, and contextually. 

a.)*Historical interpretation refers to understanding the 
culture, background, and situation which prompted the text. *
b.) Grammatical interpretation is recognizing the rules of grammar and nuances of the 
Hebrew and Greek languages and applying those principles to the understanding of a passage. 
c.) Contextual interpretation involves always taking the surrounding context of a verse/passage 
into consideration when trying to determine the meaning.

Most important of all, is the realization that if one portion of scripture seems to oppose or contradict 
another, then we had the wrong interpretation; as author of the work, is not a God of confusion,
but _*ONE*_ of order and truth. It is up to us to delve deeper to find where *WE* 
went wrong in pointing out the 'error'.......as there are none where *HE* is concerned.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2011)

naturelover said:


> Right. So what happens if those who chose God and truly believe in the rapture and this new date set for the rapture don't get taken up on May 21st if it doesn't happen?


True Believers who believe in the Rapture know better than to believe in nutcases who predict a date.


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## puddlejumper007 (Jan 12, 2008)

gees, guess some people are reading a diffrent bible than i am...


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

The Bible is either true or false or some of both.

You may find reasons to not believe and you may find reasons to believe.

Before you prejudge this prophesy to be fiction you should study it.

Even Bible skeptics often acknowledge that events over the past 60 years align well with events described as those occurring during a season prior to Christ's return to rapture his believers prior to a 7 year period of tribulation.

These events center around Israel.

Where was Israel 75 years ago?

The end times is also centered around an event occurring in the Temple of God.

Where is that temple? .... In ruins and can not be rebuilt because the Muslims built there own temple on top of it.

God only permits His Jewish people to build the temple on that original ancient site.

Israel became a nation again in 1949 but did not have possession of the ancient temple site.

Then Israel was attacked by Muslims in 1967 and 1973.

I am vague on details but when the dust settled in one of these battles Israel had possession of the ancient Temple site.

The final Battle of Armageddon takes place in an event where Israel is attacked on four sides and would be destroyed except for Christ's intervening.

....Watch the news and go figure !!!


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Shygal said:


> Tell me what all the kids with childhood cancers did to deserve suffering, or the kids tortured ,raped, killed daily did, to deserve suffering then?


SG, I cry over this, and so wish I had an answer. I can only believe that when their innocent lives are over, they are in a place far more beautiful than this one.


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## Chris in PA (May 13, 2002)

I always figured, since the Bible states that no man shall know the time, I feel faily confident it will NOT happen that day. And what will Camping say when it does not happen.... or will all be silent.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Shygal said:


> Tell me what all the kids with childhood cancers did to deserve suffering, or the kids tortured ,raped, killed daily did, to deserve suffering then?


Ah yes, what did they do indeed to deserve such a fate? I think Eddie Munny summed it up quite well with a line in the Clint Eastwood movie "Unforgiven" 

"Deserve aint got nuthin to do with it."


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## Rainy (Jan 21, 2010)

Shygal, I don't know why children have cancer, or are raped and murdered.... but that was Never a plan from God...... In the bible there is story about Jesus in the desert, and the devil tempts him, so to me that say's that the devil, or satan had and has alot of power, i believe that satan is responsible for cancer and for the evil in men and women's hearts and that is why they do horrible things sometimes.... why does God not override in those situtation's I honestly don't know.... I have a friend who is dying of a horrible cancer and why he doesn't take it away i don't know..... But my Grandma had a saying..... God always answers your prayers and sometimes the answer is NO. I plan on asking God alot of question's when i get there, this cancer thing will be one.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ah yes, what did they do indeed to deserve such a fate? I think Eddie Munny summed it up quite well with a line in the Clint Eastwood movie "Unforgiven"
> 
> "Deserve aint got nuthin to do with it."



The Schofield Kid: [after killing a man for the first time] It don't seem real... how he ain't gonna never breathe again, ever... how he's dead. And the other one too. All on account of pulling a trigger. 
Will Munny: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have. 
The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming. 
Will Munny: We all got it coming, kid.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Shygal said:


> Tell me what all the kids with childhood cancers did to deserve suffering, or the kids tortured ,raped, killed daily did, to deserve suffering then?


Shygal, I saw my own kids suffer and die. Not with cancer, but in other ways. You ask what do kids do to deserve these things and the answer is obviously nothing. When sin first entered the world, the world was changed from what God originally designed. We live in an imperfect world. Death is part of that world. The Bible puts it this way, in Matthew 5:45 it says that it rains on the just and the unjust alike. Since we live in a fallen world, everything in this world is affected by it. May I ask you a question? What would you tell someone like me about my kids? When they died, did they cease to exist? Or is there hope that they are alive and living in a world where they will never again face hospitals or fires or pain? A world where no tears will ever be shed and a place I can one day see them again. This is the blessed hope that gives me a will to go on. Knowing that this world is not the end all, but there is a better place. If I thought this world was all there was, I would just as soon be dead. I have lived the biggest percentage of my life in misery, the only peace I get is knowing that God is real and that Heaven is a real place. I know that one day I will live in a place where no one will ever hurt me again, where I will not have to see kids dying, where I won't have to see kids hurting. I personally don't understand how people can face each day without that hope, so tell me, what would you tell me about where my kids are? Are they just worm food? Have they just ceased to exist?


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

> what would you tell me about where my kids are? Are they just worm food? Have they just ceased to exist?


Not SG here, but I want to answer that question since it's something I know with conviction, have had proven to me time and time again.

After death, death of the body, the spirits still live on. They watch over us, they help to hold us up. Sometimes the spirits will make their presence known to us here in the earthly realm, usually in those times we need them the most to bring us comfort out of anguish and spiritual turmoil. All that's needed is to recognize the subtle messages they show to us and to let them know we acknowledge their presence. They visit us in our dreams. They're there with us when we go visit the places where their earthly remains were laid to rest. They visit us with inspiration, intuition and answers when we need it the most. They send us gifts of their love in the form of other people and things that they direct to us. They wait for us to welcome and guide us when we pass on ourselves. We will do the same for all our loved ones that remain behind until the kindred circle is completed. 

.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ah yes, what did they do indeed to deserve such a fate? I think Eddie Munny summed it up quite well with a line in the Clint Eastwood movie "Unforgiven"
> 
> "Deserve aint got nuthin to do with it."


According to Txsteader, it does


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Sonshine said:


> I personally don't understand how people can face each day without that hope, so tell me, what would you tell me about where my kids are? Are they just worm food? Have they just ceased to exist?


A lot of people here confuse my not believing in the bible, or being a christian, with not believing in God.
I believe in God, I know there is a life after this one, I'm certain of that. They are with the divine in the next life, is what I would tell you, and I am certain of that.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Shygal said:


> According to Txsteader, it does


According to Christian teachings, it was at the point when Adam disobeyed God, in the Garden of Eden, that sickness, hunger, pain and suffering came upon mankind and the world. So, while I don't mean to imply that a child has done anything specific to deserve suffering, it's simply the condition of being a human. Jesus Christ didn't 'deserve' the suffering He endured either, but because He did, He has shown us that there is Life beyond this, sometimes sad and painful, one.....a life where there will again be no pain, no suffering and no sorrow. The point is, we are flesh AND spirit. The flesh is corrupt because of original sin and cannot dwell in heaven, which is incorrupt. The flesh is bound by the laws of this world (pain, hunger, sickness). But it is our hope, by faith, that our spirits will dwell in that perfection again, beyond this life in the flesh.

It is by faith that we accept these things as truth. It is by the gift of understanding that we know these things to be true.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> trying to with eisegesis, then you might actually have a far better understanding of how biblical hermeneutics works. Most important to the first law of biblical hermeneutics is that the Bible should be interpreted literally. Literal Bible interpretation means you understand the Bible in its normal/plain meaning. The Bible says what it means and means what it says.
> 
> Many make the mistake of trying to read between the lines and come up with meanings for Scriptures that are not truly in the text. Yes, of course, there are some spiritual truths behind the plain meanings of Scripture. That does not mean that every Scripture has a hidden spiritual truth, or that it should be our goal to find all such spiritual truths.
> 
> ...


Let's leave off spouting the big words for a moment, shall we?

-- Although I'm actually in agreement with the above. I think we should take most simple statements to mean what they plainly suggest. If I say, "The sky is blue," you would be a fool to interpret that to mean I think the sky is yellow, or that it's raining, or that I should have a ham-and-cheese on rye for lunch. 

When Paul advises believers that they should not marry or otherwise concentrate on Earthly business because "this world in its present form is passing away," I think his meaning is pretty clear. 

Likewise, when John (1 John 2:18) says, "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour," I don't think he means "the last hour before the dinner bell rings and we all go in to supper!" No; I think he means "the last hour before Christ's coming." 

The problem this poses for believers, of course, is that Paul and John were conspicuously wrong. 

Thus it becomes necessary to cloak that fact (or at least soften its blow) by dressing up the discussion with five-dollar words like "hermeneutics" and "allegory."


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Shygal said:


> A lot of people here confuse my not believing in the bible, or being a christian, with not believing in God.
> I believe in God, I know there is a life after this one, I'm certain of that. They are with the divine in the next life, is what I would tell you, and I am certain of that.


I'm glad to hear you say that.  My concern came in when you make statements about God that come across that he is unloving or uncaring. I do believe my kids are in Heaven. The way I learned this though was through the Bible, and later it became real to me in my heart. The Bible is how I came to my understanding of who God is. It's how I came to understand that this life, although it's important, it's fleeting. If I believed this life was all we had, with my background, I would just assume get it over with. But I firmly believe there is a better life after this is over and because I believe this so strongly I try to share that belief with others. There are so many people who's life is made up of hopelessness. I try to follow the teachings of the Bible and share those teachings because it's filled with hope. I don't worry about judgement day, but do try to live my life in a way that when that day comes I can say that I've done all I could. Hope that makes sense.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

Shygal said:


> A lot of people here confuse my not believing in the bible, or being a christian, with not believing in God.
> I believe in God, I know there is a life after this one, I'm certain of that. They are with the divine in the next life, is what I would tell you, and I am certain of that.


Hi SG

Your "generic" god is still allowing the innocent to experience the horrific in this world.

Deists have issues unresolvable also.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

((Sonshine)) 

Just wanted to give you a hug.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

FyredUp said:


> This is what I posted that you referenced. I am going to bold a few points and wonder why they escaped you and your need to make the ridiculous post you made to me. You really have gone beyond putting words into my mouth all the way to absurdity with your example. If you are going to comment on what I write at least pretend to try and comprehend the meaning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're right, I owe you an apology. My only excuse was I was tired when I responded and didn't get past the part of your post that upset me. Please accept my apology and I'll try to make sure to read posts in their entirety in the future. Thank you.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

naturelover said:


> Not SG here, but I want to answer that question since it's something I know with conviction, have had proven to me time and time again.
> 
> After death, death of the body, the spirits still live on. They watch over us, they help to hold us up. Sometimes the spirits will make their presence known to us here in the earthly realm, usually in those times we need them the most to bring us comfort out of anguish and spiritual turmoil. All that's needed is to recognize the subtle messages they show to us and to let them know we acknowledge their presence. They visit us in our dreams. They're there with us when we go visit the places where their earthly remains were laid to rest. They visit us with inspiration, intuition and answers when we need it the most. They send us gifts of their love in the form of other people and things that they direct to us. They wait for us to welcome and guide us when we pass on ourselves. We will do the same for all our loved ones that remain behind until the kindred circle is completed.
> 
> .


Not to be obstinate, but I really hope you're wrong. I would hate to think my loved ones are still having to see those they love suffer. I prefer to think of them in the place describe in the Bible, where there is no more pain and every tear shall be dried. People have told me it's a weakness to believe such, that it's my way of coping with things I have gone through, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me. Without the hope of an eternal life, what is the use of this world? Don't get me wrong, I try to live my life in a way that helps others. I try not to be judgemental, although I know at times I may come across that way, I try to find joy in everything in life and try to spread joy to others, it's why I became a clown.  But, is this really all there is? I hope not and don't believe it is.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Txsteader said:


> ((Sonshine))
> 
> Just wanted to give you a hug.


Right back atcha.  Thanks, but believe it or not, I'm ok. I go through a period during the Christmas season where I struggle, but after it's over, I'm usually pretty normal, whatever that is. LOL


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Sonshine said:


> Right back atcha.  Thanks, but believe it or not, I'm ok. I go through a period during the Christmas season where I struggle, but after it's over, I'm usually pretty normal, whatever that is. LOL


I know you're ok.....that was an 'I'm glad you're ok & have found peace' hug.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> Hi SG
> 
> Your "generic" god is still allowing the innocent to experience the horrific in this world.
> 
> Deists have issues unresolvable also.


I dont have a "generic" God  I know exactly what I believe and in what I believe in.

And Im not the one saying that suffering is something we deserve.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

Shygal said:


> I dont have a "generic" God  I know exactly what I believe and in what I believe in.
> 
> And Im not the one saying that suffering is something we deserve.


OK ... since you know who your God is then I have mislabeled you .... from here you appear to be more like a theist.

I'm not saying we deserve suffering either so what is the purpose of it according to your personal God ? (and I am asking out of curiosity and not because i have all of the answers)


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

Did someone mention RAPTURE?

Well here it is by Blondie:

"Rapture"

Toe to toe
Dancing very close
Barely breathing
Almost comatose
Wall to wall
People hypnotised
And they're stepping lightly
Hang each night in *Rapture*

Back to back
Sacrailiac
Spineless movement
And a wild attack

Face to face
Sadly solitude
And it's finger popping
Twenty-four hour shopping in *Rapture*

Fab Five Freddie told me everybody's high
DJ's spinnin' are savin' my mind
Flash is fast, Flash is cool
Francois sez fas, Flashe' no do
And you don't stop, sure shot
Go out to the parking lot
And you get in your car and you drive real far
And you drive all night and then you see a light
And it comes right down and lands on the ground
And out comes a man from Mars
And you try to run but he's got a gun
And he shoots you dead and he eats your head
And then you're in the man from Mars
You go out at night, eatin' cars
You eat Cadillacs, Lincolns too
Mercuries and Subarus
And you don't stop, you keep on eatin' cars
Then, when there's no more cars
You go out at night and eat up bars where the people meet
Face to face, dance cheek to cheek
One to one, man to man
Dance toe to toe
Don't move too slow, 'cause the man from Mars
Is through with cars, he's eatin' bars
Yeah, wall to wall, door to door, hall to hall
He's gonna eat 'em all
*Rapture*, be pure
Take a tour, through the sewer
Don't strain your brain, paint a train
You'll be singin' in the rain
I said don't stop, do punk rock

Well now you see what you wanna be
Just have your party on TV
'Cause the man from Mars won't eat up bars when the TV's on
And now he's gone back up to space
Where he won't have a hassle with the human race
And you hip-hop, and you don't stop
Just blast off, sure shot
'Cause the man from Mars stopped eatin' cars and eatin' bars
And now he only eats guitars, get up!


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

poppy said:


> It gets into election and does not apply to the vast majority of people. The Bible indicates there are only 7,000 of them but since 7 is the Biblical number of spiritual completeness, that number may have been used to make a point.


Where do you get that there are only 7,000 elect??


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Harold Camping is a nut in a big way. He also stated just the other week on the radio that he's the only one who learned of this date because the "seal" on the book (the ability to have this knowledge) was just opened and he happened to be the one to find it. Another reason he found this is because he is the only person in history who has believed that the Bible is "God-breathed" - no other theologian or Bible teacher in history believed that. It's what he said. I screamed "LIAR" in my car when I heard it. He's a heretic with a capital H.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Annsni said:


> Where do you get that there are only 7,000 elect??


When Elijah told God they had killed His prophets, digged down His altars, and now they wanted to kill him, and he was left alone, God replied " I have reserved unto Myself 7000 men who have not bowed a knee to Baal". Those were the elect, the saints, or the " set aside ones". As I said, that number could be actual or symbolic but the elect are different from the untold millions who have accepted Christ and are saved.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

poppy said:


> When Elijah told God they had killed His prophets, digged down His altars, and now they wanted to kill him, and he was left alone, God replied " I have reserved unto Myself 7000 men who have not bowed a knee to Baal". Those were the elect, the saints, or the " set aside ones". As I said, that number could be actual or symbolic but the elect are different from the untold millions who have accepted Christ and are saved.


God said that He reserved 7000 men who HAVE not bowed to Baal. That is not in the future but in the present.

Editing to add: The elect are all those who are in Christ. Peter says in 1 Peter 1:10 "Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall." In verse 1 shows us he's addressing the "elect". These are more than the 7000 from the Old Testament.


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## Texasdirtdigger (Jan 17, 2010)

Sonshine... I hope and pray, my kid, is with your kids.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

willow_girl said:


> Let's leave off spouting the big words for a moment, shall we?
> 
> -- Although I'm actually in agreement with the above. I think we should take most simple statements to mean what they plainly suggest. If I say, "The sky is blue," you would be a fool to interpret that to mean I think the sky is yellow, or that it's raining, or that I should have a ham-and-cheese on rye for lunch.
> 
> ...


***************************************************
but your attempt at explaining it away, is like trying to compare 
it with apples to apples and it isn't nearly that simple; especially 
when you continue to repeat the phrase " I think his meaning is 
pretty clear," or "I think he means"..... 

You completely ignore the historic time period that he was speaking in......the early church 
was under *ENORMOUS* persecution and attack from the authorities; 
both religious and political as well. You'll also notice that he did not infer that he was speaking 
from the Lord, but as one who was advising the flock of his day that it would be easier to remain 
even as he was......which at that time appears to have been single; although being a 
former Pharisee, it was likely that he had been married previously. 

Therefore, he was likely speaking from experience as well. 
Did you even stop to consider that he was speaking of the moment; 
and that he was *NOT* speaking of a future event which had yet to occur? 
If a passage spoken by either one prophet doesn't match what he has previously 
said about a matter or another prophet's mention of the same subject, then it is 
most likely you're interpretation isn't correct. So many 'other' predictions have already 
to pass, that it would be foolish to think that because 'you think' it didn't; doesn't mean 
that it won't in the future. 
There were *OVER *360 prophesies from the old testament, that Jesus Christ fulfilled during his lifetime; 
109 of which only Jesus (Yeshua) could have fulfilled!!! 

*http://www.bibleprobe.com/over-300-prophecies.pdf*

Peter covered much of what we are trying to convey here in the following: 

2Peter 3:3 - *Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers*, walking after their own lusts,

2Pe 3:4 - And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, 
all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.

2Pe 3:5 - For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, 
and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6 - Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:7 - But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, 
reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2Pe 3:8 - *But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a 
thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2Pe 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is 
longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
*
2Pe 3:10 - But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall 
pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the 
works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:11 - [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,

2Pe 3:12 - Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being 
on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2Pe 3:13 - Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2Pe 3:14 - Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2Pe 3:15 - And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother
*Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
*
2Pe 3:16 - *As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard 
to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.*

2Pe 3:17 - Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, 
being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

2Pe 3:18 -	But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 
To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.


----------



## samm (Dec 6, 2008)

bologna, hogwash..hooyie.....i do believe that God will return, but only He knows when that will happen....i would never assume to know or believe anyone that says that they know the date when that will happen, so i believe that you better be "ready" every minute of your earthly life. no human is perfect, and we all fall short, but live your life for Jesus, give your life to Him........ cuz He will return......someday, and i welcome Him when He does.

samm


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Texasdirtdigger said:


> Sonshine... I hope and pray, my kid, is with your kids.


I believe that any child that dies before the age of accountability goes to Heaven. The Bible doesn't really say anything about this, but in my heart, and maybe it's because it's what I want to believe, but I can't imagine them not making it to Heaven when they had no understanding of right and wrong. It's my understanding that Jews believe the age of accountability is 12 yrs old. I can't remember where they got the age from, but I had done some research on it years ago.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

willow_girl said:


> Likewise, when John (1 John 2:18) says, "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour," I don't think he means "the last hour before the dinner bell rings and we all go in to supper!" No; I think he means "the last hour before Christ's coming."
> 
> The problem this poses for believers, of course, is that Paul and John were conspicuously wrong.
> 
> Thus it becomes necessary to cloak that fact (or at least soften its blow) by dressing up the discussion with five-dollar words like "hermeneutics" and "allegory."


WG

You point is one made by many folks....including C. S. Lewis. He was embarassed that even Jesus was wrong about the second coming. He understood that Jesus and the Apostles taught a near event.

I submit that they were not wrong. Everyone who thinks they were wrong, are in fact wrong.

While Christians today wrangle about the timing of the second coming....they fail to consider that it is the NATURE of the second coming that they should be noodling out.

Just as the Jews in the first century completely missed the nature of the first coming (they wanted a conquering king who would restore Israel to her former glory), Christians fail to grasp the nature of the second coming....so they miss it in their history books.

I submit the God-ordained destruction of the Temple by the Roman armies was the "end" that Jesus and the apostles taught....the end of the OT sacrificial system, the end of the Levitical Priesthood. The writer of Hebrews talked about the old that was fading away and was about to vanish...s/he was talking about the covenant of death being replaced by the covenant of life.

Jesus himself said that this end would occur before those who he was speaking to were all dead. There are quite a few time statements in the NT regarding the Parousia that narrow down the timing to the first century. Look at the first verses of Revelation! It is very clear if you do not enter in with a pre-conceived notion that it is all future!

As usual, my Preterist $0.02. I could write for hours, but then I'd probably get myself banned! :grin: :runforhills: 




Tim


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> but your attempt at explaining it away, is like trying to compare
> it with apples to apples and it isn't nearly that simple; especially
> when you continue to repeat the phrase " I think his meaning is
> pretty clear," or "I think he means".....
> ...


I think it takes an awful lot of words to explain how something actually doesn't mean what it clearly states, but instead means something else altogether. 

P.S. Tim, that is a very interesting theory!


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Judgment Day... isn't that the second terminator movie?


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## suzfromWi (Jun 1, 2002)

naturelover said:


> Not SG here, but I want to answer that question since it's something I know with conviction, have had proven to me time and time again.
> 
> After death, death of the body, the spirits still live on. They watch over us, they help to hold us up. Sometimes the spirits will make their presence known to us here in the earthly realm, usually in those times we need them the most to bring us comfort out of anguish and spiritual turmoil. All that's needed is to recognize the subtle messages they show to us and to let them know we acknowledge their presence. They visit us in our dreams. They're there with us when we go visit the places where their earthly remains were laid to rest. They visit us with inspiration, intuition and answers when we need it the most. They send us gifts of their love in the form of other people and things that they direct to us. They wait for us to welcome and guide us when we pass on ourselves. We will do the same for all our loved ones that remain behind until the kindred circle is completed.
> 
> .


I love this and believe it wholeheartedly....


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> When Paul advises believers that they should not marry or otherwise concentrate on Earthly business because "this world in its present form is passing away," *I think his meaning is pretty clear*.


It IS perfectly clear, simply that the world is changing.
Anything else is what you *imagine* it to mean



> I think we should take most simple statements to mean what they plainly suggest


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> It IS perfectly clear, simply that the world is changing.
> Anything else is what you imagine it to mean


Ahh, but he didn't say the world merely was "changing," but that it was "passing away."

If I told you that Aunt Esther had passed away, would you take that to mean she had died? Or just that she'd gone on a diet or dyed her hair?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Ahh, but he didn't say the world merely was "changing," but that it was "passing away."


Same thing, different phrasing

Time "passes away"

And he said "the world* IN IT"S PRESENT FORM*", which means *changing* to a new form

You'll have to talk to Fred Sanford about Aunt Esther


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## suzfromWi (Jun 1, 2002)

This is the problem. Everyone has there own view of what the Bible really says. For me its just a book, a fantasy. Maybe some of those guys that wrote it were on something.... Wasn't hashish popular then?


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## doohap (Feb 23, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> . . . If I told you that Aunt Esther had passed away, would you take that to mean she had died?


Yes, that she had died and was "passing" to another life.

As for the Earth:


> And I saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


 â Revelation 21:1


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Same thing, different phrasing
> 
> Time "passes away"
> 
> ...




What exactly was passing away in the first century, when the letters that we now call the NT were written? Was it time? Was it the physical world?

Check out the Greek word _aeon_ that is sometimes translated as _world_....and see what the word really means.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

doohap said:


> Yes, that she had died and was "passing" to another life.
> 
> As for the Earth:
> â Revelation 21:1



Please do a study on references to "heaven and earth"...and be sure to use the first testament.

After you read the context of all references to "heaven and earth" in the first testament, I think you might be a little surprised at what the authors were actually referring to. I know I was!


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

It can also be very useful to do a word study on the Greek word *mello* to see how it is used (and often mis-interpreted) in english translations.

http://www.biblicalfulfillment.org/id26.html

Words matter. If we mess up a translation, how will we know the truth?

Tim


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Same thing, different phrasing
> 
> Time "passes away"
> 
> And he said "the world IN IT"S PRESENT FORM", which means changing to a new form


But did it? I suppose if Tim is correct, and Christ's (and Paul's) prophecies really were in reference to the destruction of the Temple, we could say it did. But most modern believers do not accept that as fulfillment of the prophecy. For one, the events of 1 Thessalonians (including the Rapture) didn't take place, and we're certainly not in the 1,000-year reign of Christ (nor were we, as far as I can tell). Thus most Christians believe these events are slated to take place in the future. Right? 

It's interesting that Christianity is still going strong after 2,000 years! Although I'm sure nearly every generation has been convinced that it's living in the "end times" ...


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

willow_girl said:


> But did it? I suppose if Tim is correct, and Christ's (and Paul's) prophecies really were in reference to the destruction of the Temple, we could say it did. But most modern believers do not accept that as fulfillment of the prophecy. For one, the events of 1 Thessalonians (including the Rapture) didn't take place, and we're certainly not in the 1,000-year reign of Christ (nor were we, as far as I can tell). Thus most Christians believe these events are slated to take place in the future. Right?
> 
> It's interesting that Christianity is still going strong after 2,000 years! Although I'm sure nearly every generation has been convinced that it's living in the "end times" ...


Ah.....the Thessalonians. Look at what Paul said to them about the Day of the Lord not being already past....then think on that for a moment.

If they thought "the end" was similar to what most believers think it is today, could they possibly have been confused??


Tim


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> *But did it?* I suppose if Tim is correct, and Christ's (and Paul's) prophecies really were in reference to the destruction of the Temple, we could say it did. But most modern believers do not accept that as fulfillment of the prophecy.


Yes, the world did change.
It's still changing
Where did it say he was referring to any "prophecy"?

Also, why do Wiccans/Atheists/Agnostics and those who are just apethetic CARE what a book/religion they *don't believe in *says at all?

If you don't *believe* it, it seems foolish to argue the meanings


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

"Also, why do Wiccans/Atheists/Agnostics and those who are just apethetic CARE what a book/religion they don't believe in says at all?

If you don't believe it, it seems foolish to argue the meanings"

We care because so many people do believe in this garbage and base their actions on it. If their actions didn't involve anyone else then all would be fine. But religion has that incredibly dangerous hook in it that makes believers involve others. Believers must save us from ourselves whether we want their help or not. That's where the line is crossed; that's why we must fight fantasy with facts.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

HeritagePigs said:


> "Also, why do Wiccans/Atheists/Agnostics and those who are just apethetic CARE what a book/religion they don't believe in says at all?
> 
> If you don't believe it, it seems foolish to argue the meanings"
> 
> We care because so many people do believe in this garbage and base their actions on it. If their actions didn't involve anyone else then all would be fine. But religion has that incredibly dangerous hook in it that makes believers involve others. Believers must save us from ourselves whether we want their help or not. That's where the line is crossed; that's why we must fight fantasy with facts.



Such a great post it deserves to be seen again.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

In the house I grew up in, the end of the world was predicted very often! Every time the weather was unusual, my mother would say that it must be the end of the world. But then, she sprinkled Holy Water in the corners of the house when we had lightening too!

It that date means that it time for Judgement Day, so be it. I'll worry about it when it happens.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

HeritagePigs said:


> "Also, why do Wiccans/Atheists/Agnostics and those who are just apethetic CARE what a book/religion they don't believe in says at all?
> 
> If you don't believe it, it seems foolish to argue the meanings"
> 
> We care because so many people do believe in this garbage and base their actions on it. If their actions didn't involve anyone else then all would be fine. But religion has that incredibly dangerous hook in it that makes believers involve others. Believers must save us from ourselves whether we want their help or not. That's where the line is crossed; that's why we must fight fantasy with facts.



You choose to involve yourself in a "religious" discussion on the internet, and then claim believers are jamming their garbage down your throat so you must fight back?

Am I hearing you correctly?

Or are you perhaps projecting here?


Tim


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

tarbe said:


> > We care because so many people do believe in this garbage and base their actions on it. If their actions didn't involve anyone else then all would be fine. But religion has that incredibly dangerous hook in it that makes believers involve others. Believers must save us from ourselves whether we want their help or not. That's where the line is crossed; that's why we must fight fantasy with facts.
> 
> 
> You choose to involve yourself in a "religious" discussion on the internet, and then claim believers are jamming their garbage down your throat so you must fight back?
> ...


I read HP's reply as being in reference to the "believers" who are spreading their fantasy that Judgement Day and the end of the world is going to be on May 21st. When people like that are basing their own actions and advertising that kind of religious fear mongering on billboards, buses, internet, etc. right in people's faces that's what I call jamming their garbage down other people's throats.

.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> We care because so many people do believe in this garbage and base their actions on it.


If you just ignore them and don't associate with them,their actions have no effect on you


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I read HP's reply as being in reference to the "believers" who are spreading their fantasy that Judgement Day and the end of the world is going to be on May 21st


And again, WHY does it matter what they say if YOU dont' believe it?

YOU are "spreading" it by posting it.

I didn't see any "believers" posting it and forcing any of you to read it.

I'm pretty sure it's just a lot of the usual :stirpot:

Some people work really hard to be offended


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

For one thing, the Bible says there 2 witnesses will prophesy for 3 years first- and they will be highly noticeable because of their power. They will be killed and resurrected at His return with the rest of the saints. So He won't return that soon according to prophecy.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

naturelover said:


> I read HP's reply as being in reference to the "believers" who are spreading their fantasy that Judgement Day and the end of the world is going to be on May 21st. When people like that are basing their own actions and advertising that kind of religious fear mongering on billboards, buses, internet, etc. right in people's faces that's what I call jamming their garbage down other people's throats..


*********************************************************
uses that same energy and zeal to battle the evil corporate structures of capitalism where products
are advertising on billboards, buses, internet, etc.; you know..... right in people's faces 
(tv even brings it right into your home!)......that's why they seldom buy that garbage.....because 
Madison Ave. has jammed it down people's throats??? Strangely enough, I haven't heard even 
one believer _*ON HERE*_ claim that those who have claimed May 21st as the end are 
anything but misguided......yet somehow *ALL* the rest of us are lumped in with them 
as well. Why then, am I not surprised???


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

FyredUp said:


> Such a great post it deserves to be seen again.


*************************************************
Obviously neither you nor HP bothered to read this the first time it was posted; 

otherwise I'm sure you'd have had something to comment on ......

*There were OVER 360 prophesies from the old testament, 
that Jesus Christ fulfilled during his lifetime;
109 of which only Jesus (Yeshua) could have fulfilled!!!

http://www.bibleprobe.com/over-300-prophecies.pdf*

What do you think the probability odds are, for _*ONE MAN*_ to fulfill all those?!?!


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Some people work really hard to be offended


You just said a mouthfull, and ain't that the truth.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> If you just ignore them and don't associate with them,their actions have no effect on you


Unless they pass laws based on their religious beliefs which restrict me from, oh say for instance, marrying the partner of my choice.

Anyone who is likely to be killed/persecuted/repressed/discriminated against (etc.) by a religious majority has a vested interest in combating such superstition and trying to encourage the spread of rational thought. We have a dog in the fight.



> There were OVER 360 prophesies from the old testament,
> that Jesus Christ fulfilled during his lifetime;
> 109 of which only Jesus (Yeshua) could have fulfilled!!!


This only carries weight if the people who recorded Christ's story weren't aware of the prophecies. Since they were, it is possible they tailored the message to conform to the prophecy. This would explain certain discrepancies: for instance, the fact that two of the Gospels give different entirely genealogies for Jesus, although both trace back to the "correct" ancestor according to prophecy. One suspects the purpose here wasn't to give an accurate accounting so much as it was to make the record square with prophecy.

Remember that the authors of the Gospels were not impartial observers, but disciples actively seeking to make converts.

Another possibility is that Jesus himself was familiar with the prophecies and tailored his actions to conform to them, such as when he instructed his followers to secure a donkey and its colt for his triumphal ride into Jerusalem, possibly to fulfill the prophecy in Zechariah 9.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

willow_girl said:


> Another possibility is that Jesus himself was familiar with the prophecies and tailored his actions to conform to them, such as when he instructed his followers to secure a donkey and its colt for his triumphal ride into Jerusalem, possibly to fulfill the prophecy in Zechariah 9.


Or such as manipulating the circumstances of his birth, death and resurrection....:bash:


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Or such as manipulating the circumstances of his birth, death and resurrection...


No, I think it was up to his followers to provide those parts of the story. 

Actually I suspect Jesus didn't come up with the Messiah-theory until fairly late in his ministry. I think it was a product of what we might call the "rockstar complex." Here's my theory:

Say you start out as a rabbi, an itinerant preacher and reformer who delights in pricking the stuffed shirts of the establishment. You call the religious leaders of the day hypocrites and worse, and offer a supposedly superior alternative. You're controversial enough to attract a following. 

In the beginning, to get people's attention, you place a couple of shills in the audience who claim to be miraculously healed by your ministry. People are fooled. As time passes, the crowds get larger and more enthusiastic. They're following your entourage everywhere, showering you with gifts, treating you to expensive meals. People you've never seen before in your life start jumping up during services and proclaiming they've been healed! Things are getting a little weird. You begin to wonder if you really _do_ have special powers, if perhaps you _are_ annointed by God. After all, your mother has always said you were special! You go to one of your disciples for a reality check, but even he assures you that you are the Messiah. Wow! It must be true!

There is a tipping point when you begin to believe your own hype. You're now studying prophecy and actively trying to fulfill it. The problem is, you've gotten so big that you've become a true threat to the religious establishment. They're in cahoots with the government, and they take you out! They get help from one of your disciples, who has become disillusioned. This came about after he watched a woman anoint you with expensive perfume. He protested that the perfume should have been sold and the money used to feed the poor. It's what you would have done a few years earlier, when you still were filled with pure and holy zeal. But now you've come to enjoy the finer things in life that are bestowed upon you by your adoring sycophants. You tell your disciple, "Ehh, don't be a buzzkill, Judas. I'm kind of enjoying this!" He gets flustered, turns against you and rats you out.

It all goes bad shortly thereafter. You're arrested, tortured and hung up to die like a common criminal. On the cross, you realize that you don't really have superpowers after all. "God, why have you forsaken me?" you cry. Then it's exit stage left! Some of your rich followers hastily provide a crypt for your body, but the authorities, fearing an uprising, hastily move it to an undisclosed location.

But wait, the story's not over yet, as fortunately you have a follower name Mary who has a history of mental illness. Nowadays we'd probably call her a schizophrenic. Following your death, in a state of extreme anguish and confusion, she goes looking for your tomb and runs into a vagrant hiding out in the boneyard. He notices that Mary, while attractive, is quite confused and seems to mistake him for a dude whom she likes a lot! Not being the most scrupulous fellow, and a quick thinker, he says, "Yeah, Baby, I'm your man! What, you didn't recognize me? Come to poppa, honey ... I'll give you something you'll recognize ... right over here behind this really tall obelisk." Mary then has an, ummmm, religious experience, and runs back to the other disciples to tell them about it. 

Now, the other followers have long been jealous of Mary's relationship with Jesus (she was, after all, according to one account, "the disciple he most liked to kiss"). They don't take kindly to this news, and pretty soon, in self-defense, they begin having their own visits with and/or visitations from their dear departed leader. And thus a religion is born ...

That seems to me as likely as not. :shrug:


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Unless they pass laws based on their religious beliefs which restrict me from, oh say for instance, marrying the partner of my choice.
> 
> Anyone who is likely to be killed/persecuted/repressed/discriminated against (etc.) by a religious* majority *has a vested interest in combating such *superstition *and trying to encourage the spread of rational thought. We have a dog in the fight.


*Majority* is what gets laws passed.
Religion doesn't always play a part.

So you harrass Wiccans too? I must have missed those posts
That is just as much a "superstition"


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

"That seems to me as likely as not."

Makes much more sense, since the story in the Bible makes none at all.

Wonderful post, BTW!

Brian


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

I LOVE the Scripture threads.

'cause they always end with everyone accepting an enlightened and well-reasoned consensus.....


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> So you harrass Wiccans too? I must have missed those posts
> That is just as much a "superstition"


I think any deviation from reality is dangerous, some more so than others. 

For instance, I'd say Islam is more toxic than Christianity, and Wicca more benign than either. 

But I heartily wish they all could be discarded, providing they were replaced by some sort of rational altruism. (That's the tricky part. Freethinkers down through the ages have been forced to acknowledge that fear of an Almighty has made many people behave better than they would have otherwise. And keeping people in line by making them fear horrific punishment in the afterlife certainly is more cost-effective than providing the necessary policing ... thus there are advantages to societies that embrace religion.)

P.S. HeritagePigs, I thank you for the kind words.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

willow_girl said:


> Actually I suspect Jesus didn't come up with the Messiah-theory until fairly late in his ministry. I think it was a product of what we might call the "rockstar complex." Here's my theory:


Please go read John 4:25,26. This is early in His ministry, before He had achieved wide recognition.

Then come back and tell me you still think your theory holds.

Edit: oh wait...I think you hold that the scriptures are a fairy tale...never mind


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Ahh! You got me on that one. My general recollection (it's been years since I've read this stuff) was that the Messiah stuff came out only at the end. 

I do think there are natural (as opposed to supernatural) explanations for most of the story, though. For instance, the virgin birth. Now, down through the ages, couples have been jumping the gun a bit when it comes to consummation. Usually the wedding proceeds post-haste and the bride has an exceedingly large premature baby a few months later!

But what's a girl to do if the father of her unborn babe (for one reason or another) ISN'T her betrothed? And her betrothed steadfastly refuses to engage in the kind of sin that would provide an excuse for her unfortunate condition? I can see a desperate (and audacious) young woman coming up with the explanation Mary did. Especially in a day and age when to be pregnant out of wedlock was disastrous. :shrug:


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

"For instance, the virgin birth."

Virgin births were part of religions long before Christianity came along. There are plenty of other examples where Christianity adopted pieces of religions that came before.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

HeritagePigs said:


> "For instance, the virgin birth."
> 
> Virgin births were part of religions long before Christianity came along. There are plenty of other examples where Christianity adopted pieces of religions that came before.


Of course. But the virgin birth of Messiah was foretold in the ancient Jewish scriptures, long before Christ actually came. But I would not expect you to know that, seeing as how you don't read fairy tales.


Tim


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

And virgin birth was part of Egyptian religion long before then. I would hope that you knew that since you put such faith in your religion.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

HeritagePigs said:


> And virgin birth was part of Egyptian religion long before then. I would hope that you knew that since you put such faith in your religion.



I was not aware that I should know about egyptian gods, as a Christian.

You have a link for the texts in question? I wouldn't mind seeing them.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

You could start with Isis, she was a virgin mother of the Egyptian god Horus and was a goddess of Egypt in her own right. Or look up the word _parthenos. _It's a Greek word in reference to other virgin 'goddesses' that gave birth.

Are Christians not allowed or not supposed to know about other people's gods?

.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Most Christians think that their religion was the first to come up with the idea of a virgin having a baby who was considered the son of a god or a god itself. In fact, there are tales of virgin births in many distinct religions before Christianity.

There are many links to reliable sources on the study and history of religion. Just use Google.

The fact that most Christians don't know this is very telling. Why devote your energy and life to something as important as a religion without doing your research?

Different religions share many basic concepts. They all seem to have borrowed ideas from others; there are even common myths in religions that existed in completely distinct geographic areas and societies.

My point is that, before you commit yourself to the Bible as being truth, do some homework. You may still have your faith but at least it will be based on an intelligent understanding of how your religion developed.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

naturelover said:


> You could start with Isis, she was a virgin mother of the Egyptian god Horus and was a goddess of Egypt in her own right. Or look up the word _parthenos. _It's a Greek word in reference to other virgin 'goddesses' that gave birth.
> 
> Are Christians not allowed or not supposed to know about other people's gods?
> 
> .


Sure we can study up on other people's gods, but most don't. I like to study other faiths. I think it's interesting.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

But Isis was a mythical person, no?


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> That seems to me as likely as not. :shrug:


I make no secrets about not believing in the bible or being a christian, but your post there is just plain rude.

If you don't believe it, fine, dont post some kind of insulting alternate version of what YOU think it was like. I don't really think you believe that anyway, its just fodder for the fundie pokers.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> I think any deviation from reality is dangerous, some more so than others.


Then its a good thing God is real then, isn't it. I have NO doubt about it, and I know you will be very very surprised when you do meet Him.






willow_girl said:


> But I heartily wish they all could be discarded, providing they were replaced by some sort of rational altruism.



In other words, you want people to believe what you think is right


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Shygal said:


> Then its a good thing God is real then, isn't it. I have NO doubt about it, and I know you will be very very surprised when you do meet Him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:clap:


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Then its a good thing God is real then, isn't it. I have NO doubt about it, and I know you will be very very surprised when you do meet Him.


We all pays our money and takes our chances. Me, I'm betting on the big dirt nap, myself. :shrug:

I find this funny, though. I thought Christians were the only ones relishing the thought of me burning in Hell! ound:



> But I heartily wish they all could be discarded, providing they were replaced by some sort of rational altruism.
> 
> In other words, you want people to believe what you think is right


No; I simply recognize that religion plays a role in checking some people's worst impulses. Even if it turns out there is no God, if people fear an imaginary one enough to, say, restrain themselves from raping and pillaging, that's a good thing! No? 

Absent religion's staying hand, what might they do? Yikes! 

This is something rational people have struggled with down through the ages. I think most conclude that while we personally can get along fine without the carrot and the stick that is religion, it might be unwise or unkind to remove it from our neighbor!


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Txsteader said:


> But Isis was a mythical person, no?


Not mythical to the Egyptians. Isis was a real person and one of their Holy Trinity, and yes, there were a lot of miraculous myths or legends about her. Her following spread beyond Egypt to Greece and throughout the Roman Empire lasting from before 3000 BC until well into Christian times. There are many who still worship Isis to this day.

There are a great many deities down through all the ages of mankind's history who appeared on earth as living men or women and were generated by themselves or other gods (or angels) through mortal virgin women. The circumstances of many of those women are nearly identical to the story of Mary, mother of Jesus. Jesus was only the most recent in a long line of many virgin or immaculate births. Jesus' birth was preceded 6 months earlier by John the Baptist's birth, who was born of a very old man and a sterile mother. John's birth was prophesied by the angel Gabriel, so John's birth also was considered an immaculate conception because his mother was sterile.

The Buddha (Siddartha Gautama) was another one who was an immaculate conception. He was a real person, not mythical, born more than 500 years before Jesus. Siddartha came into Maya his mother's womb while she slept and dreamed about him. His spirit had the appearance of a brilliant gemstone implanted by his own holy spirit through her side. She was guarded by 4 angels until his birth, when he appeared clean and erect from her womb with no blood or water. Maya died 7 days later and became a demi-goddess as the mother of the Buddha.

Krishna, another real person, was an immaculate conception. God himself (named Vishnu in India) descended into the womb of Krishna's mother Devaki and generated himself as her son. Before the conception and birth of Krishna, Devaki was untouchable and unapproachable, no one could bear to gaze upon Devaki because of the light that surrounded her, and those who contemplated her or desired her became uneasy of mind.


.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> I find this funny, though. I thought Christians were the only ones relishing the thought of me burning in Hell! ound:


And what makes you think I relish the thought of you burning in hell ? I merely said you are going to be very very surprised when you meet Him.

Most pagans dont believe in hell, by the way.


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## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

> Most pagans dont believe in hell, by the way.


 Never been to Detroit have you?


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Maybe I don't believe in Detroit, either


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

So many people are willing to believe in the supernatural, in gods and angels, in virgin women having children, in zombies, instead of the much more realistic truth of how people take bits and pieces of fables and embellish them, craft them into their societal norms and over time create religions.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Shygal said:


> I make no secrets about not believing in the bible or being a christian, but your post there is just plain rude.
> 
> If you don't believe it, fine, dont post some kind of insulting alternate version of what YOU think it was like. I don't really think you believe that anyway, its just fodder for the fundie pokers.


Thank you.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

HeritagePigs said:


> So many people are willing to believe in the supernatural, in gods and angels, in virgin women having children, in zombies, instead of the much more realistic truth of how people take bits and pieces of fables and embellish them, craft them into their societal norms and over time create religions.


Even if that were true, why should it matter to someone who believes themselves to be above such nonsense as faith? I don't use the word religion, because I don't consider myself a religious person, but a follower of Christ and His teachings. How does that in any way affect you or society as a whole? I harm no one, at least not that I'm aware of. I try to help my fellow man. I don't try to force others to believe as I do, so I don't get why those who choose not to believe have such a hard time with those who have chosen to believe.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Because, so often, those who choose to believe try to have influence over my life, and my children's lives. And I don't want my children to be influenced to be stupid.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> And what makes you think I relish the thought of you burning in hell ? I merely said you are going to be very very surprised when you meet Him.


Don't believers (of any stripe) always enjoy the thought of nonbelievers getting their comeuppance? I'm not going to hold that against you. :hysterical:

I seem to recall a passage in the Bible (don't ask me to find it; it's been 20 years) wherein Paul takes great pleasure imagining how nonbelievers will react to Christ's return.

Of course, he thought he was going to witness their surprise firsthand. :shrug:



> Even if that were true, why should it matter to someone who believes themselves to be above such nonsense as faith? I don't use the word religion, because I don't consider myself a religious person, but a follower of Christ and His teachings. How does that in any way affect you or society as a whole? I harm no one, at least not that I'm aware of. I try to help my fellow man. I don't try to force others to believe as I do, so I don't get why those who choose not to believe have such a hard time with those who have chosen to believe.


If believers kept their religion to themselves and within their churches/temples/mosques/etc., and didn't try to incorporate it into the secular laws of the land at every turn, I'd have no issue with them.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

HeritagePigs said:


> Because, so often, those who choose to believe try to have influence over my life, and my children's lives. And I don't want my children to be influenced to be stupid.


Well, thank you for calling many of us here in HT stupid. Have a nice day.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

willow_girl said:


> *Don't believers (of any stripe) always enjoy the thought of nonbelievers getting their comeuppance?* I'm not going to hold that against you. :hysterical:
> 
> I seem to recall a passage in the Bible (don't ask me to find it; it's been 20 years) wherein Paul takes great pleasure imagining how nonbelievers will react to Christ's return.
> 
> ...


It's not been my experience that true believers, or any stripe, find pleasure in the fact that someone will have to suffer.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> It's not been my experience that true believers, or any stripe, find pleasure in the fact that someone will have to suffer.


That's odd, because they usually sound pretty gleeful when they're imagining us sinners in the hands of their angry god! :shrug:


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Because, so often, those who choose to believe *try to have influence *over my life, and my children's lives. And I don't want my children to be influenced to be stupid.


It's obvious no religions have had any influence on your life


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's obvious no religions have had any influence on your life


Sure it did. I grew up in a Southern Baptist family. But then I learned how to learn; how to distinguish between facts and fantasy. I started asking questions and found out that my religious friends, family and others could not come up with answers that made sense.

All of their answers required me to suspend rational thought, to just have "faith". Sorry, but that just didn't work with me. 

I wonder why it does work for some other folks. Why hasn't rational thought, intelligent observation, the intrinsic value of facts become more important in their lives? Why isn't it plainly obvious to all that virgins cannot give birth without human sperm being present? That people cannot rise from the dead? That the earth is incredibly older than their scripture indicates? That there is no "Judgement Day"? That their religious fables are just that, fables that are used to influence the behavior of populations? What is wrong with those people?


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

HeritagePigs said:


> Sure it did. I grew up in a Southern Baptist family. But then I learned how to learn; how to distinguish between facts and fantasy. I started asking questions and found out that my religious friends, family and others could not come up with answers that made sense.
> 
> All of their answers required me to suspend rational thought, to just have "faith". Sorry, but that just didn't work with me.
> 
> I wonder why it does work for some other folks. Why hasn't rational thought, intelligent observation, the intrinsic value of facts become more important in their lives? Why isn't it plainly obvious to all that virgins cannot give birth without human sperm being present? That people cannot rise from the dead? That the earth is incredibly older than their scripture indicates? That there is no "Judgement Day"? That their religious fables are just that, fables that are used to influence the behavior of populations? What is wrong with those people?


They've met Jesus. 

Your words remind me of the story about C.S. Lewis.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> Even if that were true, why should it matter to someone who believes themselves to be above such nonsense as faith? I don't use the word religion, because I don't consider myself a religious person, but a follower of Christ and His teachings. How does that in any way affect you or society as a whole? I harm no one, at least not that I'm aware of. I try to help my fellow man. I don't try to force others to believe as I do, so I don't get why those who choose not to believe have such a hard time with those who have chosen to believe.



It matters because while you say one thing here about why should it matter what someone believes and yet when I posted my beliefs you had to pounce on me with some ridiculous talk of raping children and other nonsense. I posted not once, but TWICE, that as long as you harm no one it shouldn't matter to anyone else what you believe. Yet you took offense. When called on it by another poster, and then myself, you had nothing to say, not even an ooops, I misread that. So don't play holier than thou when your beliefs are challenged when you hit and run attack other's beliefs.


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> If believers kept their religion to themselves and within their churches/temples/mosques/etc., and didn't try to incorporate it into the secular laws of the land at every turn, I'd have no issue with them.


 You would wish that the influence the ten commandments had on our present laws did not exist? Do you think that men and laws just evolved without religion?

"O"


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

English Oliver said:


> You would wish that the influence the ten commandments had on our present laws did not exist? Do you think that men and laws just evolved without religion?
> 
> "O"



In some instances Yes, I do wish the influence of religion would have stayed out of and would continue to stay out of our lives and laws.

I think in the dark ages when man was far less educated than he is today religion and the fear and power it contained were used as a tool to controol the masses. Heck it still is today for some and to some extent. 

The problem though is religion is not singular, it does not unite people of different faiths or those who choose no religious affiliation. It is divisive because those who are hard core believers in their own religious beliefs in many cases simply can not adhere to a live and let live policy about beliefs. Tell me the benfit of religions battling over whose God is the right God when both religions seek to pass along the message of Love your neighbor, do good deeds, believe in God, follow the scriptures and the rest. Tell me the benefit of any religious person spending one breath trying to convert me from my Wiccan based beliefs when I follow almost the same path with the exception of Jesus and a Christian God? I seek to harm no one, my life is spent helping people when I can, and I seek to convert no one and generally will not speak about my beliefs unless directly asked.

The farther we keep religion out of our laws the better off we would be.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> What is wrong with those people?


Nothing
They just don't agree with you


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

HeritagePigs said:


> All of their answers required me to suspend rational thought, to just have "faith". Sorry, but that just didn't work with me.
> 
> I wonder why it does work for some other folks. Why hasn't rational thought, intelligent observation, the intrinsic value of facts become more important in their lives? Why isn't it plainly obvious to all that virgins cannot give birth without human sperm being present? That people cannot rise from the dead? That the earth is incredibly older than their scripture indicates? That there is no "Judgement Day"? That their religious fables are just that, fables that are used to influence the behavior of populations? What is wrong with those people?


HP - Humanity doesn't all work that way. Not all people have the mental capacity and intellect or the education to comprehend the physics and science of things. Not everyone has a brilliant, rational, deductive mind and a high IQ. Many people even as adults have the imaginations and simple faith of children and don't question things, they only need somebody else with greater power and influence to tell them how to think and what to believe. As long as somebody else in authority is willing to make the rules and take responsibility for guiding their souls there are a millions times more other people who are content with that and willing to follow without question and believe what they are told to believe. Many people NEED religion and a higher power than themselves to believe in and they NEED people in authority to guide them in the principles of their religion. Most people have to have something greater than themselves to believe in and have faith in. Without it they would be lost and alone and terribly frightened .... their religion and faith is what keeps them strong and brave. 

.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

naturelover said:


> HP - Humanity doesn't all work that way. Not all people have the mental capacity and intellect or the education to comprehend the physics and science of things. Not everyone has a brilliant, rational, deductive mind and a high IQ. Many people even as adults have the imaginations and simple faith of children and don't question things, they only need somebody else with greater power and influence to tell them how to think and what to believe. As long as somebody else in authority is willing to make the rules and take responsibility for guiding their souls there are a millions times more other people who are content with that and willing to follow without question and believe what they are told to believe. Many people NEED religion and a higher power than themselves to believe in and they NEED people in authority to guide them in the principles of their religion. Most people have to have something greater than themselves to believe in and have faith in. Without it they would be lost and alone and terribly frightened .... their religion and faith is what keeps them strong and brave.
> 
> .


That is about the most insulting thing I ever saw posted. I get it. Those of us with religious beliefs just aren't as smart or educated as you and HP. Is that why you live in Canada and HP lives with swine?


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

poppy said:


> That is about the most insulting thing I ever saw posted. I get it. Those of us with religious beliefs just aren't as smart or educated as you and HP. Is that why you live in Canada and HP lives with swine?


If you choose to be insulted by that then that is your perogative. You make your own choices about what you want to believe. I have my own religious beliefs, they just aren't the same as yours or anybody else's on this board. I have a different level of intellect and education than you but that doesn't necessarilly make me smarter or better than you. I live in Canada because I was born here and I thank God profoundly for that blessing every single day of my life. I imagine HP lives with swine because it is enjoyable and somewhat profitable for him, just as it may be for every other person who raises swine.

Your hatred towards swine and a person who raises swine leads me to wonder if you might be muslim. Are you a muslim?

.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Why do I live with swine? Well, just go here: http://homegrownacres.com/farmfotos.html and click on the little dog's head. You'll find lots of photos of swine and other animals that explains everything. If there were a heaven, I live there.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

naturelover said:


> If you choose to be insulted by that then that is your perogative. You make your own choices about what you want to believe. I have my own religious beliefs, they just aren't the same as yours or anybody else's on this board. I have a different level of intellect and education than you but that doesn't necessarilly make me smarter or better than you. I live in Canada because I was born here and I thank God profoundly for that blessing every single day of my life. I imagine HP lives with swine because it is enjoyable and somewhat profitable for him, just as it may be for every other person who raises swine.
> 
> Your hatred towards swine and a person who raises swine leads me to wonder if you might be muslim. Are you a muslim?
> 
> .


Yep, I am muslim and my real name is Muhammed. I'm getting ready to issue some FATWA's but I'm sure someone of your intellect and education already knew that.ound:


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

HeritagePigs said:


> Why do I live with swine? Well, just go here: http://homegrownacres.com/farmfotos.html and click on the little dog's head. You'll find lots of photos of swine and other animals that explains everything. If there were a heaven, I live there.


Live with whatever you want, but if I were you I wouldn't count on the hogs for advice. Get out more and talk to real people.


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

naturelover said:


> Without it they would be lost and alone and terribly frightened .... their religion and faith is what keeps them strong and brave.
> 
> .


You have that completely backwards.

"O"


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

poppy said:


> Yep, I am muslim and my real name is Muhammed. I'm getting ready to issue some FATWA's but I'm sure someone of your intellect and education already knew that.ound:


You know Poppy, I never said there was anything wrong with people needing religion to guide them in their lives.

Do you deny that your religion gives you strength, courage and purpose in your life? If it doesn't do that for you then what other purpose is there for you to believe as you do?

If you were a muslim I wouldn't consider you a lesser person for it just because you believe in a different religion than I do. That would be religious discrimination and discrimination is wrong, it twists the mind.

If I feel blessed to have been born in a different country from you, do you think I feel sorry for you because you choose to live where you do?

If a person finds the company of animals brings them greater enjoyment than the company of humans, does that make them an inhuman person? There are many people right here on this board who admit that they prefer the company of animals more than the company of people. Are you a better person than them if you don't feel the same way?

.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

English Oliver said:


> You have that completely backwards.
> 
> "O"


Then enlighten me. Tell me what is forward.

.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

naturelover said:


> HP - Humanity doesn't all work that way. Not all people have the mental capacity and intellect or the education to comprehend the physics and science of things. Not everyone has a brilliant, rational, deductive mind and a high IQ. Many people even as adults have the imaginations and simple faith of children and don't question things, they only need somebody else with greater power and influence to tell them how to think and what to believe. As long as somebody else in authority is willing to make the rules and take responsibility for guiding their souls there are a millions times more other people who are content with that and willing to follow without question and believe what they are told to believe. Many people NEED religion and a higher power than themselves to believe in and they NEED people in authority to guide them in the principles of their religion. Most people have to have something greater than themselves to believe in and have faith in. Without it they would be lost and alone and terribly frightened .... their religion and faith is what keeps them strong and brave.


Excuse me but I have this prerequisite mental capacity, intellect and education and I've used it to comprehend that physics and science can not explain how a living reproducing cell could invent itself !!!

I have faith as a result of an intelligent decision and not so that I can be strong and brave!!!

Concerning the origin of life .... science is clueless ....


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> Excuse me but I have this prerequisite mental capacity, intellect and education and I've used it to comprehend that physics and science can not explain how a living reproducing cell could invent itself !!!
> 
> I have faith as a result of an intelligent decision and not so that I can be strong and brave!!!
> 
> Concerning the origin of life .... science is clueless ....


Good for you, and I totally agree with you and can say the same thing for myself. Except I'm one up on physics and science and religions because I do know how a living reproducing cell could invent itself. :happy0035:

.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

naturelover said:


> Good for you, and I totally agree with you and can say the same thing for myself. Except I'm one up on physics and science and religions because I do know how a living reproducing cell could invent itself. :happy0035:
> 
> .


Good for you !!!!! Now you need to share your sacred knowledge with Richard Dawkins because he found his research inadequate to prove a supernatural-less origin and so now relies on his philosophical arguments to solve the problem. :grin:


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

naturelover said:


> HP - Humanity doesn't all work that way. Not all people have the mental capacity and intellect or the education to comprehend the physics and science of things. Not everyone has a brilliant, rational, deductive mind and a high IQ. Many people even as adults have the imaginations and simple faith of children and don't question things, they only need somebody else with greater power and influence to tell them how to think and what to believe. As long as somebody else in authority is willing to make the rules and take responsibility for guiding their souls there are a millions times more other people who are content with that and willing to follow without question and believe what they are told to believe. Many people NEED religion and a higher power than themselves to believe in and they NEED people in authority to guide them in the principles of their religion. Most people have to have something greater than themselves to believe in and have faith in. Without it they would be lost and alone and terribly frightened .... their religion and faith is what keeps them strong and brave.
> 
> .


That is some stunning arrogance right there.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

It isn't arrogance. It's the truth.

What is it about that simple truth that seems wrong? 

.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

naturelover said:


> It isn't arrogance. It's the truth.
> 
> What is it about that simple truth that seems wrong?
> 
> .


*You are saying that only atheists have intelligence and the rest of us must be ignorant and unlearned !!!*


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

That's not what was written. Try reading it again but, this time, suppress that commentary that is going on inside your head. It just misleads you and inhibits comprehension.

Pay particular attention to the words and phrase "Not everyone", "Many", "Most". Notice that there is no "All".

Now read again what you wrote. Do you see how you were wrong?


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

HeritagePigs said:


> That's not what was written. Try reading it again but, this time, suppress that commentary that is going on inside your head. It just misleads you and inhibits comprehension.
> 
> Pay particular attention to the words and phrase "Not everyone", "Many", "Most". Notice that there is no "All".
> 
> Now read again what you wrote. Do you see how you were wrong?


Wrong. She's talking about anyone who believes in a higher power. 

I don't know if that is what she meant to say, but that's sure the way it came across.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Txsteader said:


> Wrong. She's talking about anyone who believes in a higher power.
> 
> I don't know if that is what she meant to say, but that's sure the way it came across.


Tx, it didn't come across that way to me. Try considering that she is addressing the radical elements of the Muslim faith. Could you see how those comments apply beautifully?


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

LaManchaPaul said:


> Tx, it didn't come across that way to me. Try considering that she is addressing the radical elements of the Muslim faith. Could you see how those comments apply beautifully?


I see how those comments could apply if addressed to radical Muslims but this slightly drifting thread still has a context and naturelovers's remarks were in response to HP's comments concerning the general beliefs of Christians.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> Don't believers (of any stripe) always enjoy the thought of nonbelievers getting their comeuppance?


I guess you'd be mightily wrong then, wouldn't you. I think you will be very surprised at the end of the story, it is you that is thinking "surprised" means I think you will have the floor opened up under you and dropped down a chute into hellfire.

Most pagans don't believe in hell, as I said. and it sounds like you are trying to goad me into saying how I will be happy if you burn in hellfire, how can I be when I don't believe in it?


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> *You are saying that only atheists have intelligence and the rest of us must be ignorant and unlearned !!!*





Txsteader said:


> Wrong. She's talking about anyone who believes in a higher power.
> 
> I don't know if that is what she meant to say, but that's sure the way it came across.


:smack

No, no my dears. Please go back and read it again with an open mind and with your own personal experiences, defensiveness or discriminations put aside. I never implied that at all and I haven't singled out any one person or group of persons or any religion in particular .... I never even mentioned atheism.

I have never professed to be an atheist myself and I certainly don't believe that only atheists possess intelligence. I believe in a higher power that most other religious people don't believe in, have never heard of or even could never believe that it exists. I discovered it on my own without anybody else telling me about it long before other people started telling me what they thought I should believe in.

One of the biggest problems I see happening with most religions is it causes a lot of closed mindedness and puts so many people on the defense and lacking in tolerance of people who believe something different from them. As long as people allow their religious beliefs to cause such divisiveness and misunderstanding the world will never be a better place. 

Nobody's religion or belief system is superior to anybody else's religion.

.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

FyredUp said:


> It matters because while you say one thing here about why should it matter what someone believes and yet when I posted my beliefs you had to pounce on me with some ridiculous talk of raping children and other nonsense. I posted not once, but TWICE, that as long as you harm no one it shouldn't matter to anyone else what you believe. Yet you took offense. When called on it by another poster, and then myself, you had nothing to say, not even an ooops, I misread that. So don't play holier than thou when your beliefs are challenged when you hit and run attack other's beliefs.


To which I apologized and tried to explain that, to which you never responded. Maybe you should go back and read that thread.

Here's is what I posted, just in case you did not see it. #88 You're right, I owe you an apology. My only excuse was I was tired when I responded and didn't get past the part of your post that upset me. Please accept my apology and I'll try to make sure to read posts in their entirety in the future. Thank you.

And just to set the record straight, I never attacked your beliefs. Here's what was actually posted and how I responded, the response I later apologized for, even though you claim I had nothing to say, not even an oops, I misread that.

Originally Posted by FyredUp 
OR...People could live their lives everyday in a way that is appropriate for them. If for you that means tightly following the rules of some religion seeking a promised reward after you die, fantastic for YOU. If it means living your life to a standard you set for yourself, harming no one, and helping those you can, fantastic for you.

It shouldn't matter to anyone what anyone else believes as long as those beliefs don't impede yours or harm anyone. 

*And what happens if what is appropriate for them is running around burning down people's homes? Or raping little girls? Or murdering people? I'm not saying you have to believe as I do, but I do have my own set of beliefs and the right to explain why I believe that way.*

Where did I attack you in this? Yes, I misread your post, but never did I say anything about your beliefs, only asked what if someone's beliefs.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> I see how those comments could apply if addressed to radical Muslims but this slightly drifting thread still has a context and naturelovers's remarks were in response to HP's comments concerning the general beliefs of Christians.


Sorry, that is incorrect. I was addressing HP's comments about faith and belief, not about the general beliefs of Christians. I never mentioned any particular religion or belief system.

.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

naturelover said:


> Sorry, that is incorrect. I was addressing HP's comments about faith and belief, not about the general beliefs of Christians. I never mentioned any particular religion or belief system.
> 
> .


Thanks for clarifying .... I will need to go back again and study the thread to understand how I went off course. 

You used that word "science" and most folk do not know that "science" is the belief (presumption) that everything material can be explained aside of supernatural causation. Science then becomes a functionally atheistic/materialistic endeavor. Science denies supernatural causation but has no rational explanation for origin of life. 

.... Maybe this helps explain my reactions :angel:


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> One of the biggest problems I see happening with most religions is it causes a lot of closed mindedness and puts so many people on the defense


No one was "on the defense" until a busload showed up on the OFFENSE


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> .... most folk do not know that "science" is the belief (presumption) that everything material can be explained aside of supernatural causation. Science then becomes a functionally atheistic/materialistic endeavor. Science denies supernatural causation but has no rational explanation for origin of life.


I agree with you about that. I'm all for the wonders of science and physics but I also have experience with metascience, metaphysics, exogenics and metamorphosis. These are words to define many things that are known to be fact but for which science and physics has no explanation for those facts _at this time_. Origin of life is a good example. The principles of science and physics are things that keep on changing with the passage of time as scientists and physicists continue to learn more. As the understanding of science and physics change with time, so do the principles and beliefs of the scientists and physicists change with time. Religions and people's understanding and beliefs about religions also change with the passage of time. Nothing is set in stone nor ever can be, since even stone changes and metamorphoses into something else with the passage of time.

.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> No one was "on the defense" until a busload showed up on the OFFENSE


Bear - In case you haven't noticed, this entire topic has generated some offensiveness and defensiveness right from the beginning. It was never intended to be that way but perhaps that's unavoidable when people of so many differing beliefs are discussing God's judgement of people. It's still been an interesting discussion even with the bit of thread drift entailed.

.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

naturelover said:


> Bear - In case you haven't noticed, this entire topic has generated some offensiveness and defensiveness* right from the beginning.* *It was never intended to be that way *but perhaps that's unavoidable when people of so many differing beliefs are discussing God's judgement of people. It's still been an interesting discussion even with the bit of thread drift entailed.


I have a hard time believing that.
It looks like the same old Christian/religious bashing to me, by the usual suspects.

"What is it about that simple truth that seems wrong?"


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I have a hard time believing that.
> It looks like the same old Christian/religious bashing to me, by the usual suspects.
> 
> "What is it about that simple truth that seems wrong?"


Well, I did ask what people here think about those people's proclamation and intent and got lots of honest answers from several Christians on the board. Some Christians here said they don't think those rapturists are true believers/true Christians. Do you think all of those kinds of answers from Christians is Christian bashing? 

I can't be held responsible for thread drift or for what some other heckling people say in the discussion. 

Are you just heckling too or are you saying you agree with those rapturists? Are you a rapturist yourself? C'mon Bear, be honest. Do you think they are right to be putting so much effort into spreading the word that judgement day is on May 21st? What purpose do you think it will serve to tell people that?

.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Do you think all of those kinds of answers from Christians is Christian bashing?


Of course not

It's obvious which posts are "bashing", and who is doing the most.

Don't pretend you don't know exactly what I'm talking about, because I know you're smarter than that



> Do you think they are right to be putting so much effort into spreading the word that judgement day is on May 21st? What purpose do you think it will serve to tell people that?


What do you care if it "serves a purpose" if YOU don't *believe* it anyway?
They can say anything they want, and it only affects those who LET it affect them.

From the beginning you've implied they are doing something "wrong", and all the rest jumped in behind you

The first name calling was by you in post 6 when you said they were "presumptuous"

In Post 19 Willow threw out "charlatan" and started trying to interpret the Bible

Then Fyredup gave his opinion of God,, which wasn't too favorable.

All that is on just the first page

By post 65, Christians (and others) were being compared to "cavemen" for "believing in invisible friends", and being told "It's time to evolve"

That one was directed at you too, since you believe in "spirits", and yet you defended him later when he called religion "garbage"

From there it just degenerates more

What "purpose does it serve" for you (or anyone) to question their actions, or the faith of anyone's religion?

Reality is most here wouldn't have even heard about it if YOU hadn't mentioned it, because it's really not that important


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## suzfromWi (Jun 1, 2002)

Many, many horrible things have been done in the name of religion, or someones God....Religion has been an excuse for people to do these horrific things for many decades. I cannot be a part of something that leads to the pain of others. My God is gentle and loving and speaks to me through my conscience, to lead a good , loving life. I do not need members of the cloth that think they stand between me and my God. Some of these same people have done some of the horrific things....My experiences throughout my life have shown me that there is more then just us...There is a place for the souls of those that have gone before, that they can still connect with us...I too was baptized as a child in the Baptist religion. Mostly because that was the only church mom could get us to at the time. I was taught about the Bible in Bible school and told about ----ation and hells fire. I believe in none of that. The ;little ant that I am on this huge planet, knows there is a greater spirit that loves and cares about us, but for the most part....we are on our own here. Its up to us to be whom we are capable of...I even think its possible..I may get to live again....


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What "purpose does it serve" for you (or anyone) to question their actions, or the faith of anyone's religion?
> 
> Reality is most here wouldn't have even heard about it if YOU hadn't mentioned it, because it's really not that important


I cut it short in the quote but I believe that's the longest post I've ever seen you make on this board. :shocked: You better go check your pipes cuz I think something might be about to freeze over. :hysterical:

I think the topic must have served some purpose and interest for discussion as there are 200 posts and over 2000 views. Obviously several people were willing and interested to get involved in the discussion and offer their opinions. 

There are oodles of things going on in the world that most here would never hear about unless somebody on the board brings it up for discussion. When a topic is interesting or important to people they discuss it. That's what forums are for. If it's not important to them they ignore it. 

If it's not important to you, as you evidently seem to think it's not, then perhaps you should just dismiss it instead of complaining about the topic.

As a side note, I'm rather disappointed to see that FyredUp has been banned, presumably as a consequence of this topic since his last posts were in response to this topic. That's kind of a sad statement and perhaps should serve as warning to people who offer differing viewpoints that aren't popular with some other people.


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## suzfromWi (Jun 1, 2002)

If he was banned because he doesn't believe in someone else's God...Maybe I should be banned too...


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear that Fyred Up was banned, but I don't think it's because he doesn't believe in someone else's God. There's many who were not banned that don't believe in someone else's God, or any god for that matter.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> You would wish that the influence the ten commandments had on our present laws did not exist? Do you think that men and laws just evolved without religion?


Do you actually believe human societies had no prohibitions on things like stealing and killing until the Ten Commandments came along? 

Actually, our laws reflect only a couple of the Commandments. It is not illegal to worship other gods; to make graven images; to take the Lord's name in vain or to covet your neighbor's wife or possessions. Americans are not legally required to honor their mothers or fathers or to keep the Sabbath holy. Adultery may have been illegal in earlier times, but I doubt there are many convictions today. That leaves us with admonitions against stealing, killing and bearing false witness, and those prohibitions are common even in non-Christian societies. :shrug:

Religion and law _do_ go hand-in-hand, however, and here's my theory: Without religion, a society has to rely on human enforcement to uphold the law. Such a society is going to require a lot more policing than one in which the population is self-regulating to some extent because they fear the unseen hand of a Divine judge! The religious society can take some of the resources that otherwise would have been used to maintain order and expend them in more beneficial ways.

I believe evolution selects for societies that have a religion, and this is demonstrated by the fact that most societies DO have a religion of one sort or another, and religion generally reinforces the laws/values of the people.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> *If it's not important to you*, as you evidently seem to think it's not, then perhaps you should just *dismiss it instead of complaining *about the topic.


Isn't that *EXACTLY* what I just said about the "non-religious"?

Why go *out of your way to insult *someone because their beliefs are different?



> Obviously several people were willing and interested to get involved in the discussion and offer their opinions.


There's a big difference in "offering opinions" *on the TOPIC*, and *insulting* entire groups of people based on what they believe, and who have NO association with the group in the OP


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

> Why go *out of your way to insult *someone because their beliefs are different?
> 
> There's a big difference in "offering opinions" *on the TOPIC*, and *insulting* *entire groups of people* based on what they believe, and who have NO association with the group in the OP


Are you talking about religion or politics? There's not much difference in that regard between the religious and political discussions. 

Why is it okay for people to say horrible things and insult entire groups of other people and each other in the political discussions but it's not okay for people to express differing opinions in discussions about religion? Why the double standard?

.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Why is it okay for people to say horrible things and insult entire groups of other people and each other in the political discussions but it's not okay for people to express differing opinions in discussions about religion? *Why the double standard*?


Ask yourself that.


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

Loquisimo said:


> Mr. Camping has been making "predictions" similar to this for years. I believe he was the one who said the world would end in 1994......



Yes...

[ame]http://www.google.com/search?q=harold+camping+end+of+the+world+1994&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a[/ame]


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> "What is it about that simple truth that seems wrong?"



Truth? Whose version of the truth? One person's truth can be another person's lie/fairy tale/whatever. So our assumption of truth does not oblige someone else to see it our way.

Truth is, I disagree with most Christians regarding eschatology. I am a Preterist. But I hope I never stoop to calling my dispensationalist brothers and sisters juvenile names.

In the same vein, we all as fellow humans should not treat each other like garbage because we differ in our politics or have differences related to our beliefs in the supernatural.

This is nothing more that kindergarten 101...but we seem to forget those lessons too easily.

I still think that the vast majority of us on here have a whole lot more that unites us than divides us. But you'd never know it sometimes listening to us! 

Sometimes I wish I could spend a weekend with 5 of the people on this board that I have had the most differences with. I bet we'd all come away fast friends. What is it about the anonymity of the internet that turns us into punks? :hammer:

I know....sounding like Rodney King. But hey....he was right! Why can't we??

I for one pledge to do better.


Tim


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## Sumer (May 24, 2003)

May 21st? Really? Might be true. Its my evil X husbands birthday.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

naturelover said:


> I'm seeing this on thousands of websites, news reports and youtubes all over the net now, claims that May 21, 2011 will be judgement day and the rapture, and that October 21st will be the end of the world as it all goes up in flames. Whatta y'all think of this?


I don't think of it at all.. Or think much of the loonies who made it up.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

:grit:

I cringe when I hear stuff like this....


I can`t believe anyone crying "the sky is falling" in this day and age.......


Here is a lecture explaining alot about 2012 ......there are lots of things in this video to ponder.

You might be surprised at where you find information.......

This covers alot of ground, but some of it is relevant to this thread, the original post, and many of the comments that have been posted along the way.

If nothing else you will be more educated at the end of the video than before and it might help to understand some things better.

Or you can just dismiss it and get upset and not gain anything from it......

While I do not agree with everything presented, I find myself with more information after watching it and also a understanding of things I did not know about before watching......

This video is for everyone, not just christians or non-believers.....it`s like a giant History channel documentary on ancient culture,reliegion,etc...quite interesting no matter which side of the fence you are on.

I believe in god and was able to watch it without getting offended, I try to keep a open mind about things of this nature and found it very interesting.

If you have never heard of or seen this I would highly recomend it.....

http://www.archive.org/details/pharmacratic-inquisition

{You can simply click on the video player and watch it....no funny stuff or downloads, etc....basically just like a youtube video}


I have shown or sent this to many people from all walks of life and they have found it very interesting to watch.

:lookout:

It is rather long and very information heavy...if you are into fast paced hollywood movies, then you will probably be boared with it.

If you are into documentaries and discovery/history channel type stuff, then you will find it very interesting.

There is a shorter version available for those who wish to see it and it is a little more hollywood like, but I feel the shorter version lacks the proper explanations that are covered in this version....feel free to search out the smaller version on the web if you can`t take the time to watch the full version.
Like I said, the smaller version just kind of skims over the topics and does not provide the in depth explanations that I like in this longer version.


I hope you enjoy the video !


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

I think you missed the OP's information. This is not about the end of the world in 2012 but instead in 2011. This is about Harold Camping - not the Mayan calendar.




shawnlee said:


> :grit:
> 
> I cringe when I hear stuff like this....
> 
> ...


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Always interesting when a religious thread comes up!

I must admit to having a chip on my shoulder when it comes to Christianity due to the pain and suffering it has caused my family and many friends. I do like to think of myself as pretty fair in my views on things, though.

My first problem with Christianity is that they start off by telling me that I was born in sin, am filthy and worthless and need to be "saved" to have any shot at living or end up burning forever in some "Hell". That's not a good way to begin the conversation. I believe I was born innocent and am, for the most part, a pretty good person. I behave myself, don't lie, cheat or steal (well, maybe I drop a little white lie here and there!), pay my taxes, treat people with respect and will help you out with whatever you need if I am able. Now, if a Christian came up to me and said 'Hey, you seem to be a pretty good person, I think you would be a good fit with us", then I might be a little more open to conversation.

I also think that anyone who follows a religious path should be pretty well informed about most other religions so following their spiritual path is a well informed one rather than just something they've always known. If someone follows the religion because it's all they've known, that's not really a conviction that it's the right path, you have to have something to put it up against so you can say "This is right and this is wrong." This is why I believe all children should be shielded from any religious influence until they are able to make an informed decision themselves. At what age is that? I don't know. Practical? Of course not. Children will be influenced by the way they are raised. However, if one wants to raise their children to be nothing but Christian, they can't criticize a family who wants to raise a young suicide bomber, each one believes the other is wrong and probably raised each child telling them their way is the only way.

People also don't do themselves any favours by constantly predicting the end of the world. It really takes away from the credibility when these dates come and go and nothing happens.

Lets all play nice. We all have to share the same sandbox until we're called home for dinner.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Annsni said:


> I think you missed the OP's information. This is not about the end of the world in 2012 but instead in 2011. This is about Harold Camping - not the Mayan calendar.


I know...but I am commenting on where all this is actually coming from. 

The root of the problem soo to speak....

There are a couple of reasons why people from all walks claim the world is going to end, when thats just not the case.


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