# LGD and insurance companies



## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

I'm seriously considering a livestock guardian (Pyrness, Anatolian or cross). My question is what to do with the insurance company. We had a dog that had a very nasty bark and growl and could be intimidating if she wanted to be. NEVER would attack... never provoked though either. We ended up getting a letter from our insurance company that they got complaints about our 'mean' dog. In our opinion, she was doing her job. Turns out it was a meter reader that made the complaint as she was afraid of dogs.  :run:

If we put out a "Beware of Dog" sign, I think it would be an invite for the insurance agency to raise our rates. But what do we do about idiots that would come on the property uninvited while we're gone and the dog is just doing his/her job? We're going to fence the front yard and drive, complete with gate and lock, but what if someone crosses the gate/fence to knock on the door? Anybody experience this?

Woud a "Dog on Duty" sign work? "Lifestock Guadian at work"?? What do you do?

The dog(s) will be socialized while we are here as we do have folks that come to the farm for visits, etc. But I would expect it to 'guard' when we're not here.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

What you want is insurance to cover your property that includes a dog. Yeah there's some cost but insurance is a product like a broom or mop. No point buying one that won't do the job. Having a guard dog to protect your property from thieves is different than having a LGD protecting livestock. Or it should be in the eyes of the insurance, even though it isn't always. Either way you want good insurance so shop around. A sign won't replace real insurance.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

A sign saying 
Big dog at home


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Safest sign you can put up is No Trespassing. Some states have a simple colour code that lets you paint a post the correct colour and that IS the same as posting a no trespass. Thing is once you walk past the sign you're in the wrong and assume a lot of risk. Obviously you cant shoot them or hurt them but if your dog bites or they fall down a well they are at least partly to blame. Not perfect you still needs insurance but it helps and may reduce costs! Trespass laws do vary a lot


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

Ross said:


> Safest sign you can put up is No Trespassing. Some states have a simple colour code that lets you paint a post the correct colour and that IS the same as posting a no trespass. Thing is once you walk past the sign you're in the wrong and assume a lot of risk. Obviously you cant shoot them or hurt them but if your dog bites or they fall down a well they are at least partly to blame. Not perfect you still needs insurance but it helps and may reduce costs! Trespass laws do vary a lot


 At my shop property I have a creek in the back and a very small strip of land past that. I put up no trespass signs took pics for the ins. Told the people in back that adjoin and use the ground (they even have a shed 1/2 way on it) that nothing has changed, if they fall, cut a foot off whatever they were trespassing, otherwise I'll come by 1 time a year to see if the signs need replaced.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I have State Farm Insurance. My insurance company knows about my Pit Bull but they said they did not care what dogs I have since they don't cover dog bites anyway. Some insurance companies have a list of "bad breeds" but so far, the LGD breeds are not on the list. So really, they should not care about a LGD. Don't put up beware of dog signs though....they tell people that you know your dogs will bite and you could get in trouble for harboring a dangerous animal. Get some of the "Livestock guardian dog on duty" signs to put up instead.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Depends on the company. Someone decided to let my protective male Dobe outside right before the insurance inspector came by. :smack The guy got out of his car 3 feet from a snarling Dobe going at him from behind the fence. He inspected the house, never mentioned the Dobes and had no issue with coverage. I have moved since, and can't remember what company it was...


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

my insurance guy met my pit bull the same way when he dropped by to take photos. Bailey is a great watch dog (when she's awake) and puts on a good show, but she's all bark and no bite. But he didn't say a thing about her and insured us anyway.


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

Thanks for the advice. DH suggests just make sure that the dog is behind a fence. Someone stupid enough to cross the fence is fair game. Of course he also says that the insurance company will probably drop us after the first bite. LOL

We'll socialize the dog as much as possible so that it's not human agressive as a rule but as an exception, like someone sneaking on the property at night. 

Now the coyotes or the neighbor's dog that comes within range are fair game. SSS for sure. I do think a sign on the property telling folks to leave their critters in their vehicles will be a good thing. I visited a farm that told people to leave their dogs in their trucks and saw first hand what happened when someone said "Oh, my dog won't bother"... The rancher's Pyr had that Retriever by the neck and down on the ground before it could get 5 feet away from the truck. He let go when told to. The owner put the Retriever back in the truck right quick!! Don't know who was shaking worse... the owner or the dog! 

Note: Same weekend I saw this Pyr and the other two Pyrs terrorizing and eventually treeing a bear! I also watched as one of the dogs that had been at the bottom of a child-pile worked his way out to help play tug-o-war with a coyote with the other two. Those dogs sure earned their kibble on that ranch!!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

I had no trespassing signs around my property. Also a gate across the driveway.
A sheriffs deputy chose to open the gates, come into my driveway, open the yard gate, and reached for my back door handle.
One of my dogs hit him in the shoulder taking him to the ground.
Nothing came of it as it was all on camera and the deputy admitted the dog sat and watched him until his hand touched the door knob.


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

Check with your State's laws regarding liability for dog bites and the ramifications. Here in WA, a bite is generally a "strict liability" offense - in other words, if your dog bites someone, you're on the hook for damages. The exception we have on the books if for trespassers who have been put on notice. To challenge the presumption of fault, you must have both "No Trespassing" and "Beware of Dog" signs conspicuously posted. I have both signs posted on my front and back fences. The main concern for us is the risk of some jerk provoking our dog and her getting labeled a "dangerous animal" which means she's at risk for being forcibly put down. So, IMHO, there are two issues: (1) managing your risk for liability; and (2) putting your dog in the most defensible position legally should something come down.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

In some places having a beware of dog sign is admission (on your part) of having a known danger on your property and makes it worse for you. So DO check that out! 

What I'm reading is the insurance companies that don't care if you have a dog also do not cover you if there is an incident where someone is hurt. That means *YOU pay* not them. You're not covered if your dog causes harm. Are you good with that having thought it through? Say your dog really hurts someone they sue and you lose. The judge awards X amount. If you own nothing I guess you can't lose anything. But if you do you might not for long.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

yes I realize that and it does worry me. I am looking into separate farm insurance which should cover livestock...and maybe the LGDs too? Something worth checking in to.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

In some areas a dog can be claimed as livestock. Taxes are paid on them as livestock and they have all the same rights as a cow.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

AverageJo said:


> I'm seriously considering a livestock guardian (Pyrness, Anatolian or cross). My question is what to do with the insurance company.


I am of the opinion that the less said the better. If they don't ask about the dog, then don't tell them.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

Proper training can also be very good ins.
There was 1 case local where a guy was bit on a property with no trespass signs. 
Person that owned the dog is a member & instructor of the County Obedience school, came in ready with documentation.
The judge looked and saw that the dog had been through 3 rounds of OB of 8 weeks each with up to 20 other dogs and handlers. Judge greeted the dog as a non-confrontational stranger, and decided that the guy that got bit was total at fault was guilty of trespass, and had to pay all medical costs, & for the dog owner missing a days work.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Rock said:


> Proper training can also be very good ins.
> There was 1 case local where a guy was bit on a property with no trespass signs.
> Person that owned the dog is a member & instructor of the County Obedience school, came in ready with documentation.
> The judge looked and saw that the dog had been through 3 rounds of OB of 8 weeks each with up to 20 other dogs and handlers. Judge greeted the dog as a non-confrontational stranger, and decided that the guy that got bit was total at fault was guilty of trespass, and had to pay all medical costs, & for the dog owner missing a days work.


You're 100% right and that outcome is how it should be always. :icecream:


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

mekasmom said:


> I am of the opinion that the less said the better. If they don't ask about the dog, then don't tell them.


At the very least, anyone with these concerns should review their policy - if dogs are excluded, it should be clearly listed in the policy's exclusions section. You don't want to be figuring this stuff out after an incident. Another thing to keep in mind is that if you can argue that there is at least the appearance of coverage, your insurance company may be on the hook to pay for your defense - which is a pretty big deal.

Regarding the difference between a "pet" dog and a "LGD" for insurance purposes, if anyone has any experience with this issue, I'm sure many here would love to hear about it. For that matter, I suppose there'd be tax write-off potential as well as an business loss/expense. Has anybody had success with this?


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Rock said:


> Proper training can also be very good ins.
> There was 1 case local where a guy was bit on a property with no trespass signs.
> Person that owned the dog is a member & instructor of the County Obedience school, came in ready with documentation.
> The judge looked and saw that the dog had been through 3 rounds of OB of 8 weeks each with up to 20 other dogs and handlers. Judge greeted the dog as a non-confrontational stranger, and decided that the guy that got bit was total at fault was guilty of trespass, and had to pay all medical costs, & for the dog owner missing a days work.


These are LGD breeds we are talking about. None of these breeds are what you could call "highly obedient". They are highly intelligent, but think for themselves. They can easily learn basic obedience as pups but are not quick to obey once they are adults because they do not see the reason behind it. Getting anything beyond a rally title probably will not happen. It's just the way they are.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

In my case, I had an inner fence around the house, and a larger perimeter fence around that with a gated driveway and no trespassing signs on the lane to the house. If an inspector is met by a pack of aggressive dogs running free and jumping on his car, his opinion on coverage might change.


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