# How long will the hoardes of hungry thirsty people last?



## Homesteader (Jul 13, 2002)

Ooops, the word is hoardes, with an "e", don't know how to edit the title.

Ok if the SHTF with a prolonged disruption of food, sanitation, water, medical, etc., just how long will the large masses of people last?

I was thinking the other day that we are 60 miles away from about 2 million.

If a good portion of these folks stay put waiting for some agency to come along and help, and they run out of food and water during said wait, won't they be so weak and thirsty as to not make it very far once they go "hunting" for life-sustaining items?

Now granted some areas may have a water source, we would not as we're desert, once those faucets go off (well, not we as in my house, we have a well, I mean the big city folks) they are out of luck.

How far (walking) can a person make it with no water, and no food?

How much of an impact do you think this will have and are you far enough away?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I had to edit the title, you cannot.


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## Homesteader (Jul 13, 2002)

You're so good to me!


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

A lot of people aren't going to be able to walk 60 miles into the desert. The ones you need to worry about are the ones with gasoline that have to pass your area headed for somewhere long enough after the event that supplies are hard to find.

Some of them may be like locusts looking for a meal. I'm on the west side of the Appalachians. The horde won't make it this far. The few that do will probably know someone locally or already have a place here.


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## Sunbee (Sep 30, 2008)

I think a lot depends on the weather and the season. Great weather, people can go further. Howling storms, extreme cold and heat, people can't go so far.
However, sixty miles is a quarter tank of gas in my minivan. I don't think it's people on foot you'd have to worry about: I bet if I ignored the laws I could get twenty people in there, probably another dozen or so on the sides and roof--look up bush taxi pictures.
Unless EMP is the only disaster you expect to take down the power grid, I'd think you could get masses of refugees.


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## Homesteader (Jul 13, 2002)

Good points all. The gas is a good thought. Assuming the gas pumps run out and/or shut down (and no new deliveries are coming), then the first onslaught will be stuck once their tanks go empty. After that they are on foot. 

I was thinking the hunger and thirst would do most in. Everytime I watch Survivorman or Dual Survival, etc., I think, well, the hoardes are in trouble.....


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## Owldancer (Jun 24, 2010)

logic would suggest that a great number of people would leave right away if they can, so the initial group would appear within an hour or so, and then keep coming as gas is available. Until the gas runs out they will keep coming.


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## Jerngen (May 22, 2006)

As long as it wasn't an EMP, 60 miles is nothing! 

Most people keep a container of gas in their garage for their lawnmowers etc. Even if the car was on fumes when it came time to bug out, they can make it with what they have in their garage. 
Granted some routes will become parking lots but there are a lot of back roads out of the cities too. 

I have a minivan and I can get 360 miles to a tank. Most people I know rarely let theirs get below a quarter. Then again we live in snow country so "most" folks know better.


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## Hobbes (Apr 1, 2008)

I wonder how many people will stay in place burning up valuable gas (generators, waiting in gas lines, trips to stores, work) until the realization hits them that none is on the way. Running on fumes, there may be a lot of dead cars lining the roads out of the cities.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

I've always wondered why would anyone "bug out" if they have no place specific to go ?


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

If you assume the hoardes aren't stopping and looting along the way, your question is much simpler. I think that they would be raiding as they went. If you aren't close to a major road you aren't as big of a target. People tend to think in terms of what they already know....like interstates. 

I could see folks trying to get to relatives or friends in a different area and running out of gas or necessities along the way. For instance, if there were a major 'event' and I lived in a big city and the supply trucks stopped coming, I'd pack up the family and try to get to an area that wasn't affected. If I had kids that were hungry, you bet ya, I'd be trying to do something about that and would try to steal if that was the only option. That would be your first wave of folks. Most of the thugs and criminal element are going to be busy rioting and looting in the city and it would probably be a while before they would make it out into the countryside.

You actually probably have more to worry about from neighbors and others that know you are a prepper.

It also matters where you live. Looters in Texas probably aren't going to survive for very long :happy2:


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## PrairieBelle22 (Nov 17, 2006)

They will come in waves. Sometimes in families, groups or gangs, sometimes just individuals. I don't think we will see hungry hordes for at least a week. Once they have exhausted all options in the cities they will turn to countryside raids
Those farms closest to the metropolitan areas will be most vulnerable. 

Then there will be those headed to their bug out location and family members who are off working returning to their families.

Homestead security is an absolute must.

Belle


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

My contention is that the government will set up "refugee centers" they will be secure and fenced. People will feel safe and secure there until the time they realize that the guns in the guard towers are pointed inward, not outward. This should at least account for the entitlement welfare crowd.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Onliest ones' I worry about are the firsters.... the first ones that leave at the first sniff of trouble. Wait till 'in the morning' and it'll be too late.

Anyone wondering about the Golden Horde should look up news articles on the Hurricane Rita evac from Houston. The first ones out of Houston made it, those that were 10 minutes behind made it, in 4x the normal time. Those an hour back made their destinations, the next day... most ended up locked in virtual non moving parking lots.

I was working 45 miles away, and mid day, the clerks were jabbering about evac evac evac... they decided to close early, so they could make it home (trying to cross over the 'traffic jam'). I knew a back road home, and made it in normal time, but it took me 15 minutes to cross over a traffic intersection...

Imho, if there are any natural disasters associated with the SHTF, ...floods, fires, earthquakes, blizzards, most folks would be in trouble in three days. 3 days is standard how long most grocery stores would have grub, if the trucks stop rolling.

The most perfect golden clusterstump would be a 'man caused disaster' on our refineries. Everything would slow down to a stop. There'd be little if any out migration...by the time people realized their peril, it'd be too late. Those that still had fuel and tried to use it, in cities, would find it rough going. We're awful lucky the Islamofascists were fools on 9/11. Otherwise, they could have brought this country down.


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## zito (Dec 21, 2006)

Ya know, I keep hearing that stores have a 3-day supply of food on hand. The only way I can see that is if the warehouses restocking them are included in the total. As well, it must mean three days of regular sales, with no panic buying IMO. I live in a city of just over a million. There are five main chains of grocery stores. I do my shopping in an area where four of those chains have stores within a half-mile area. The fifth chain has a store about 3 miles/5 kms away. As well, there are a number of other stores selling food in the area, like dollar stores and convenience stores. There is a -lot- of food available in the area.

But if you go shopping later in the evening like I usually do, you'll see a lot of holes on the shelves. When you go to the stores in the morning, you'll still see some holes on the shelves which won't be filled until the following day. It seems to me that most stores only keep a day's worth of sales in reserve. When we had our first big snowfall back in October, it started on a Thursday. I went that Saturday to do some shopping, and there were a number of empty shelves, never mind just empty holes. It was blamed on the daily trucks not making deliveries due to the snow/roads. And the malls were quieter than usual when I went, I suspect due to people simply staying home. If there were some kind of disaster or event that made people feel they had to go grocery shopping NOW, I would imagine that the stores, at least in my area, would be stripped by the next day, never mind three days.


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## goatlady (May 31, 2002)

The standard rule of thumb is a human can last 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water and 3 weeks without food.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Zito brings up a good point. I've always heard that stores have 3 days worth of stock on hand. However, every business owner I know has reacted to the bad economy by cutting back on their inventory and pretty much not keeping anything in the back room. They get a delivery, it goes on the shelves and there is no more until the next delivery. I have noticed over the last year that grocery stores seem to be doing the same. The bathroom is often located in the back storage area of the grocery store and I've noticed while on my way to the ladies room that the back area now often looks pretty empty compared to a few years ago. It is logical to assume that grocery stores are keeping less in inventory to try and be leaner and more efficient in this economy.

Texican that is a great example of what to expect! My exes boss got caught in the gridlock coming out of Houston. He called in a panic that there was no gas available and he and his family were sitting on the interstate almost out of gas. My ex loaded up a 55 gallon barrel full of gas and went down there to help him. Fortunately he has a 4x4 and simply drove down the median. LOL...it's a wonder someone didn't get ticked off and shoot him for that stunt! He said he was armed to the teeth to protect the gasoline he was carrying.


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## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

At the HEB in TX I go to, they get a delivery each day just about. It depends on the food type, milk, water, fresh meat will be gone in 12-24 hours. Then TP and other paper/plastic goods, batteries.

The dry pinto beans will last a while though.


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

Homesteader said:


> Ooops, the word is hoardes, with an "e", don't know how to edit the title.
> 
> Ok if the SHTF with a prolonged disruption of food, sanitation, water, medical, etc., just how long will the large masses of people last?
> 
> ...


The hordes will last about 18 months maximum. Two winters will seriously reduce their numbers.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Ya know, I keep hearing that stores have a 3-day supply of food on hand. The only way I can see that is if the warehouses restocking them are included in the total


Most won't know WHERE to find the warehouse. Often they are many miles from the stores
I've SEEN stores basically run out in 3-4 days, as well as gas stations


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## MoCat (Nov 7, 2012)

I work in a big box store and DH delivers fuel to gas stations. If for what ever the reason the supply trucks could not make the deliveries, and there was a run on them, both could be sold out with in a day/day and half. There is only so much that can be stored on site. 

The "warehouse" part of the store is really just a staging area to unload the pallets. The few things that are in there is just over flow that doesn't fit on the shelves.

Some of the gas stations that DH delivers to, can get 2-3 deliveries per day (15-25k gallons). One big truck stop on the interstate can go through over 100k gallons (diesel only) in a single day. Those are just normal nothing special going on days.

I think the hoardes will have to walk after the first day or 2.


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

Never underestimate the power of a child incessantly crying _"Mommy/Daddy, I'm hungry!"
_
I live less than 40 miles from the heart of Atlanta. I pray daily that nothing happens that would cause a mass exodus of that city and its surrounding areas.

We eventually want to move to Montana, but that's a good while off, unfortunately, unless DH can suddenly find his kind of work up there.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

The word is still spelled incorrectly. :heh: 
Somebody asked why people would bugout without a specific goal. One reason is because they are certain to die if they stay where they are. A chance at survival somewhere else is better than a sure death.:shrug:


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

From friends that work at both Walmart and Safeway the backroom stock is more like 1 day or less. If there aren't trucks pulling in routinely all day long there isn't anything on the shelves. 

The distribution warehouses are usually not right in town but are located near smaller towns with good access to the Interstate (Target & Lowes are near us) and I have friends working at both of them as well. Even they rely on getting daily shipments, in order to fill the daily store shipments. JIT turns into NO time when an emergency hits!

Main roads - state or interstate highways will be the main paths and the direction will be where ever there is perceived farm land. Many will head to this area only to be disappointed - the farming going on around us is for grass seed. Not edible crops, although a few farmers have started switching over to wheat the past year or two. The myth that there is plenty of food in the country is just that - a myth. It's not like we have huge warehouses of food and expect our less than 15k population is suddenly going to be able to feed a million plus.


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## KimTN (Jan 16, 2007)

Well, I live in one of the most overweight areas of the country. You have to take into account that most of these folks won't make it a block. Not trying to be mean to overweight people, but it is a fact that these folks will be unable to do much of anything physical. Also, you have to subtract anyone who is disabled, elderly, or a young child. There goes a lot of your zombies right there. Not to mention, that most people now days can't do much of anything and think that the grocery store is where food originates. If your lucky and it's winter, exposure and disease (a good flu virus) will wipe out a bunch more very quickly. You will be left with survivalist/preparers and Thugs. Make friends with the good guys and gang up against the bad.


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## Homesteader (Jul 13, 2002)

Hordes. I just cannot get anything right today. Hordes. No a. Thank you FourDeuce.


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## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

I'm not afraid of a horde from a city making it here, as I am of crazed "dog-eat-dog" locals. I live very rural, but unfortunately my yard is bordered ( think triangle corner) by two roads. So, we are very visual, and in the open. Constant barrage by starving locals would be worse as they may not be quite as tired/hungry, might know us, etc...??? I'm grateful my surrounding neighbors are all of a prepper mind.
--scrt


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

TnAndy said:


> I've always wondered why would anyone "bug out" if they have no place specific to go ?


Maybe they will be forced to forage (raid) for food and water.

This is the only problem with living in WV we are close to huge population centers. 

I suspect that there will be bands of raiders for a few years until all is lost. 

I have started to clear a few acres hidden from view from the road. I hope to be able to plant on it in two years.


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## Hairsheep (Aug 13, 2012)

my understanding is folks can not go without water for 3 days only...lot longer on food, though.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

I ran dry and reefer food for awhile and noticed over past couple of years stores were keeping less on hand depending on distributors to stockpile.The I noticed some of the big warehouses were keeping less and less because of inventory manipulation(I was told it was a tax/money thing).Took a load from Ill to Ky and 3 days later picked up and went to In with same load-1 of our other drivers took back to Ill next day.In Fla-Publix warehouse in Deerfield Beach is HUGE if needed.I think ANY major city would be EMPTY of food in 3 days in a REAL PANIC situation.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

KimTN said:


> Well, I live in one of the most overweight areas of the country. You have to take into account that most of these folks won't make it a block. Not trying to be mean to overweight people, but it is a fact that these folks will be unable to do much of anything physical. Also, you have to subtract anyone who is disabled, elderly, or a young child. There goes a lot of your zombies right there. Not to mention, that most people now days can't do much of anything and think that the grocery store is where food originates. If your lucky and it's winter, exposure and disease (a good flu virus) will wipe out a bunch more very quickly. You will be left with survivalist/preparers and Thugs. Make friends with the good guys and gang up against the bad.


VERY good point-physical/mental condition means a lot will bug out and not have a clue about anything but escaping.No fore thought,just GET OUT....I would bet good money that 90% of hungry city escapees could hit a deer with their car and not have a clue what to do with it.


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## valleyboy (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm not sure about hordes being a big problem beyond a few miles from any interstate or major roadway that was tied up in gridlock. A huge unorganized group of wandering, desperate people could cause a large problem to those in the way... but would pose an equally large problem to itself. As soon as a handful of of these hooligans came across something of value, the rest of the horde would be tearing through them to take if for themselves.

Beyond a few weeks, I don't think there will be many hordes. Organized gangs of hungry, desperate thugs... that's what these hordes will evolve into. Depending on the leadership and talents involved, these gangs might thrive for decades, or even become a sort of regional oligarchy.

I think that the hordes only pose a short term risk. After that, asides from nomads, it's the gangs that need to be feared. If you're in some remote location, that might not be a big deal. But, if you're sheltering in place in any area (rural or urban) that has enough people to form these groups, it seems that they will always exist as a threat.

Creating your own group of trusted friends, neighbors, and other survivors, to help guard and protect one another is my suggestion. Whether in small scale (survival retreat), or large scale (entire sub-development, town, or dozen connecting farms, for example), the best way to fight against the long-term threats is to band together.

imo


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## KimTN (Jan 16, 2007)

I think by the time the gangs organize, people in the countryside will have already banded together. The zombies, sheeple, or whatever you want to call them, will die out fairly quickly. The rest of us will definitely band together to hold off what's left. As for inner city gangs, ours happen to be a very high percentage AIDS population. Let them go with out medications and those folks will drop like flies. As a nurse, I have a very poor opinion of most of societies health. Just looking at the hospitals, I can tell you right now that tons of people will be dead or incapacitated by lack of medicine alone. Yes, they could break into a pharmacy, but the general populations knowledge is seriously lacking and they'll probably kill themselves that way also. Not to mention all the mental illness floating around. I don't want to upset anyone, but if you are on psych medications, you are going to go off the deep end when your medication runs out. I have seen it all with people who decide to quit taking even basic psych medications. I am almost certain that crazy people will not be a threat. They will be to busy chasing bunnies off tall buildings.


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## Homesteader (Jul 13, 2002)

These responses are so thought provoking. I think for me personally it has made me feel better. The immediate, local crazies will be first, followed by those who may have left right away. I think most will stay put because they will think help is coming and by the time they realize it isn't it's too late for them.

After that I do think a huge portion of people will die just from lack of water, medicine, food, violence against them. An awful thought but very possibly a major advantage to those who prepared.


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## PrairieBelle22 (Nov 17, 2006)

It is no coincidence that I am raising a pack of great pyrs and a pack of trained German Shepherds. I am up to 5 - 3 GPs and 2 GSDs. GPs take care of the 4 legged invaders (skunks, possums, coyotes) and the GSDs take care of the 2 legged (zombies, etc).

B


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

PrairieBelle22 said:


> It is no coincidence that I am raising a pack of great pyrs and a pack of trained German Shepherds. I am up to 5 - 3 GPs and 2 GSDs. GPs take care of the 4 legged invaders (skunks, possums, coyotes) and the* GSDs take care of the 2 legged (zombies*, etc).


Dogs really aren't much more than an *early warning device* to anyone who is prepared for them.

They might intimidate UNARMED Zombies, but DESPERATE Zombies would look at your DOG as food too

There's as much meat on a Pyr as on most sheep and more than on most goats


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## sweetbabyjane (Oct 21, 2002)

Just trying to keep all those big dogs fed would be a challenge.

SBJ


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

sweetbabyjane said:


> Just trying to keep all those big dogs fed would be a challenge.
> 
> SBJ


That's called "body cleanup"


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

People can live roughly 3 days without water, and I would guess that the majority of Americans could live for months without food. Not happily, and feeling hungry, but not starving to death, either.

Look at what happens during natural disasters right now. People sit for weeks complaining that nobody is coming around to take care of them. So I would expect that majority to wait for help for quite a long time before they finally realize it isn't coming.


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

PrairieBelle22 said:


> It is no coincidence that I am raising a pack of great pyrs and a pack of trained German Shepherds. I am up to 5 - 3 GPs and 2 GSDs. GPs take care of the 4 legged invaders (skunks, possums, coyotes) and the GSDs take care of the 2 legged (zombies, etc).
> 
> B


Unfortunately bullets could take care of the dogs. 
A small house dog would be good for a warning system.


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## kaitala (Mar 24, 2011)

I just want to add my recent personal experience to the chorus of "people are lazy and will die early":

I work at the local community college in buildings and grounds. In the administration building, the lights went out in the elevator. It worked, just no light.

My job for 3 hours was to sit in the elevator with a flashlight, and ride with people up and down. Ridiculous, no?

Well, the admin building is a whopping 3 floors. 2 flights of stairs is the most you'd have to climb. Believe it or not, most chose to ride the elevator anyway, in the dark with a stranger holding a flashlight, rather than take the stairs. I say "chose" because they walked in of their own accord. No one in a wheelchair, no one on crutches, etc. EVERY single person was more or less able bodied.

There were some that were very overweight. Most were in the average-mildly obese ranges though. The few I give a "pass" to were fit, but had 2 suitcases full of stuff, I guess they were giving presentations that day. Even the kids, with slips of paper in their hands felt the need to take the elevator ONE floor. Ridiculous.

Between being unhealthy, overweight, lazy, scared, and dependent on someone else to save them, I don't think the "hoardes" are as going to be hoardes, unless its a minor disaster like Sandy. Then they'll be the "hoardes" that pack town meetings, angrily shouting, "You're not taking care of me!"


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Never under estimate the effect of people believing that the bad stuff always happens to the other guy. I agree with the idea that many are just going to stay unless it involves a government ordered evacuation. Any large scale non-forecast event which prevents an evacuation has the potential for causing mass casualties. 

The EPAs forced shutdown of coal fired power plants will create a window of opportunity for the loss of electricity due to the loss of reserve capacity if a natural event or equipment failure impacts the grid. It 's a good idea to look up plant shutdowns in your area to see if its vulnerable.


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## PrairieBelle22 (Nov 17, 2006)

The dogs are definitely early warning devices - I call them our "gate bells" - but these particular dogs are a little more than that. They are trained guard dogs and they will bite. I don't know if you have ever seen on tv how the police dogs attack a perp, but that is how my one GSD is trained. It is called schutzhund - or protection. Yes, a bullet might stop a dog but not always. Quick story: about 10 years ago I had a sweet little border collie "Sam" (I picked him in the walmart parking lot after seeing him wander in town for several days) A neighbor (age 19) came over and was trying to fight my teenage step son (age 17). Sam bit neighbor and chased him out of yard. Dude came back with .22 rifle and shot at Sam, missed first couple shots as Sam was moving, then hit Sam in chest. The bullet hit his ribcage, grazed along the ribs under the skin then exited. Sam bit him in the wrist this time. About that time we intervened. If that had happened at my house today, dude would have been mauled. My dogs are guard dogs and they know their job. We as responsible owners have to take special precautions to make sure they don't bite people we don't want bit. High, secure fences, kennels, obedience training, etc. Obedience training is probably the most important. It is important to be able to call a dog off an attack.

Jane, I agree with you completely about feeding these dogs. And I have been working on already becoming "self sufficient" in the feeding. We butcher our own animals and so have a lot of meat we can dedicate to them. DH and I have even discussed keeping a special herd of goats for the dogs. We are blessed with a large quantity of land to do things with and this is a direction that we are considering. I would love to hear any ideas you might have for feeding dogs in emergency times.

Belle


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

KimTN said:


> I am almost certain that crazy people will not be a threat. They will be to busy chasing bunnies off tall buildings.


Maybe the schizos but certainly not the psychos or socios.  Not to mention how strong and dangerous someone can be when they have that special look in their eye.

Just sayin'.


Edited to add for everyone else: I am a fluffy lady, don't underestimate me or my kind. I'm as strong as an ox, think quick on my feet and can hold my own any day. I may be large but I can literally pick up a petite lady and chuck her quite a ways away.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

KimTN said:


> Not to mention all the mental illness floating around. I don't want to upset anyone, but if you are on psych medications, you are going to go off the deep end when your medication runs out. I have seen it all with people who decide to quit taking even basic psych medications. I am almost certain that crazy people will not be a threat. They will be to busy chasing bunnies off tall buildings.


I would feel better if I could puts some med aside but there are challenges (laws) that stop me from being prepared. I worry in the winter. Just for the record some of those on meds WILL be a problem. They will panic or just become confused. Confusion might sound safe but not. DH does not think of danger--gas is a liquid --water is a liquid ---water puts out a fire--the gas can is closer --Boom. 

I remember (long before911) being in Grand Central late at night and watching a person walking up behind some lady and unknown to her the man was 3 feet behind her with a large knife raising it over his head with two hand and if to kill her (3 feet ahead note) he'd slam that knife down and smile with glee. The two walked quite a distance this way with the lady NEVER showing that she was aware of anything but where she was heading. ----I was in shock and simply had the need to be assured that my back was planted firmly against the wall as I waited to head down to my train while waiting for the gate to open for mine. Do not rule out the med'ed people as problems.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> They are trained guard dogs and they will bite.


The last dog I *shot* THOUGHT he was going to bite me.
He was sadly mistaken and very surprised

No dog , no matter how "well trained", is a match for an armed human who is PREPARED for a dog


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

The last dog I shot was mine! And before that maybe a half dozen for chasing deer.


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## kaitala (Mar 24, 2011)

hintonlady said:


> Edited to add for everyone else: I am a fluffy lady, don't underestimate me or my kind. I'm as strong as an ox, think quick on my feet and can hold my own any day. I may be large but I can literally pick up a petite lady and chuck her quite a ways away.


You're right, there's a big difference between "thin" and "FIT". I have some "preps stored around my middle" too. I can outwork a good number of men I've had to labor with, and out do any frail twig who focuses on deprivation to be skinny instead of concerning herself with being healthy and fit. 

I think the "overweight" issue pertains to those who are not just fluffy, but over eat, and eat junky, processed food at that, don't live an active lifestyle, and could not walk up one flight of stairs without a break at the halfway point.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Thread drift is wonderful, but let's get back to dog killing.:gaptooth:


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## KimTN (Jan 16, 2007)

Mental people are dangerous if you are right there with them. I'm not discounting that. I should have been clearer in that they will be unlikely to travel out of the city and mount an meaningful attack on someones strong hold. Most of the people with mental illness will be wandering about the streets (street people for example). Don't tangle with them. But I'm sure the crazy will wander straight up the road and into a bullet without much thought. 

As for psychopaths and sociopaths, they are personality disorders. You may be working along side of a lot of those people in your daily life. They don't take medicine. No cure for those. These are the thugs you will have to fight off.


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## PrairieBelle22 (Nov 17, 2006)

Bowdonkey, are you preoccupied with killing dogs?


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

PrairieBelle22 said:


> Bowdonkey, are you preoccupied with killing dogs?


It's all I ever think about!


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## spud (Feb 3, 2007)

I really have doubts on how well prepared we think we might be. There is safety in numbers,MPO,and we don't have much of that in our country, our country is based on individualism. 

One would have to be very organized not only to fend off large groups looking for food but what about law enforcement working for the good of the people. There are a alot of guns out there and not very many well prepared people prepared for anything, bad combination.

One other thought, one organized group that doesn't get much press is organized crime, ie drug cartels, meth makers, etc, many are very organized and well armed and have a chain of command, their own little world . 

We have become a very violent country, not close to anyone around us and when you look around, 99% or more don't do anything in any quanity of make themselves more self-sufficient. I would be nice if we had some minor SHTF to get people off their -----es and off facebook and do something purposeful. There is alot of good infrastructure that we lost in the last 70 years, root cellars, hand water pumps, wood heat, small farms that had large variety of different types of livestock, horse power, windmills, wisdom of old people that had alot of knowledge of how get by on very little. We better hope that some bad things happen in small doses. my 2 cents


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## spud (Feb 3, 2007)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/01/chicago-homicides-reach-4_n_1929015.html


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## PrairieBelle22 (Nov 17, 2006)

Bowdonkey, lol
That's ok, All I think about is killing zombies...oh and donkeys! ha ha just kidding.

Belle


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

prairiebelle22 said:


> bowdonkey, lol
> that's ok, all i think about is killing zombies...oh and donkeys! Ha ha just kidding.
> 
> Belle


lmbo!


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

If the situation is that bad that the government can no longer function, y'all had maybe better stop worrying about the mentally ill homeless and start thinking about the foreign governments that will be moving in to take over a country that can no longer defend itself.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> a country that *can no longer defend itself*.


The British thought that once, and 3-5% of the population defeated the largest military in the world at that time


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## Peggy (Feb 14, 2010)

scarey is'nt it!!! what about the person who will run out of their meds in a month. I'm talking about the ones who are on meds for ADHD, depression, etc. that would be another wave.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I think most will die in place. Look at Katrina & now Sandy. The vast majority are setting there waiting for help, even a month later, they still set and wait. How many have left? 

By the time the masses in cities figure out help is not coming, it'll be too late. The gas will be gone, the water gone, the food gone. 

There will be a few "gangs" that figure it out and go on a city rampage to gather all they can before they flee. Those are the ones I believe will leave the cities. Not a lot of them will make it out as they turn on each other at the end. 

Walking 60 miles in a desert? I doubt many would survive it. They would burn up during the day and freeze at night. Without gas or some type of transport, they probably won't make it more than a couple three days. IF they are lucky enough to find gas, then 60 miles is an hour or less. IF they are on horseback, a couple days will get them there, provided they are smart enough to give their water to their horse instead of pouring it over their hot heads to feel better for a few minutes.


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## PrairieBelle22 (Nov 17, 2006)

Peggy, you are on to a very legit thing about the meds. And the people suffering from medication deprivation will be your own family or friends or neighbors. Being w/o the prescription med will cause all kinds of reactions and none should be taken lightly. I know that some are stashing meds back a little bit at a time while others are working on getting themselves healthier. But in an EOTWAWKI situation the stockpile of medication will eventuality expire or run out. what then? Stockpile is definitely great for a brief shtf but what if...?

I know i have rambled here and i can't go back and proofread from his silly phone.

Belle


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## WhiteStar Acres (Oct 11, 2012)

> How far (walking) can a person make it with no water, and no food?


Any reasonably smart person could walk from coast to coast picking up both in handfuls along the way without really interacting with anyone. I wouldn't judge "safety" on how far a canteen and a pocket full of food can take a refugee.


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

How long will people last without water and food?

Maybe someone could break it down into groups better then I can so feel free to do it.

First to suffer would be the elderly that have limited mobility, and depend on drugs to stay alive, especially if family doesn't live close by to look after them. Other health problems will cull a lot of younger people too, and children will suffer.

Next would be the city dwellers, that live in highrises and apartments that have never seen a garden or a live meat animal before. My personal opinion is these would be the ones to wait for help to arrive. Unfortunately gangs will form quickly in these areas and places will be looted and people will be killed

Then single family dwellings that fall victim to the gangs as they spread out of the cities.

The last to go are acreage and farm owners that are unfortunately too close to the cities.

The people with a good chance of surviving are the ones in remote locations off the beaten path. Most of these will have water, food, and a way to ward off looters.

Survivors will be people that know how to live in primative conditions and know how to cope with adverse and dangerous situations.

It will be survival of the fittest.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Don't know about ya'll... but if you shoot one dog, they don't just fall over dead (unless a head shot)... they howl, which makes the other dogs bark/howl, which makes me grab an equalizer and take out after that which killed the dog.

We've got everything from 2lb yappers to 140lb coyote killers.

A person may be next in line for sainthood... but kill, for whatever reason a furbud, and they'll 'feed' the rest.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

texican said:


> Don't know about ya'll... but if you shoot one dog, they don't just fall over dead (unless a head shot)... they howl, which makes the other dogs bark/howl, which makes me grab an equalizer and take out after that which killed the dog.
> 
> We've got everything from 2lb yappers to 140lb coyote killers.
> 
> A person may be next in line for sainthood... but kill, for whatever reason a furbud, and they'll 'feed' the rest.


I agree my pets are very important to me too.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Lots of city folks have second homes in rural areas. Many see that as there place to be, to hunt and forage. Such areas cannot support large groups.
The initial wave, those that can get gas would be in the first hour. Then those that can steal fuel in the following days. A 60 mile walk would slow the millions, but eventually the remaining would have to resort to "hop scotching" from body to body for fresh meat.

So, after plundering the fuel, food, water, weapons, ammo and bodies of the millions, the last of the remaining 100,000 fully armed survivors will arrive at your place from the first day and each day after for about 3 weeks. Better put the coffee on, we've got company.....


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## Sunbee (Sep 30, 2008)

Occurs to me it wouldn't just be psychiatric meds that are an issue. One reason we live with my folks is to help keep Dad taking his meds on time. Type II diabetic, cardiac, and hypertension patient. Dad misses them, he gets confused, disoriented.
The one time (why we moved in) Mom was visiting us, he woke up at 2 am called the sheriff reported her missing. Another time-he sleeps with the radio on-woke up convinced someone was breaking in, must have heard something on the radio, grabbed a shotgun and went looking for the guy breaking in. Wouldn't listen to Mom pointing out there wasn't any sound 'cept the radio, the dog (pointer mix) was looking at him like he'd lost it, nothing to hunt here, I was telling him I hadn't heard anything or seen anything-I was up late doing laundry and baking . . . he'd skipped his dinner meds was all.
Boy have we got paranoid about making sure he takes those pills. None of them are supposed to affect his brain function, but something in them is--and it's for the good. I suspect it's a combo of blood pressure and blood sugar that need to be kept stable.
There's a lot of people taking meds that don't directly affect their brain chemistry, but affect how much blood and how good of nutrition their brain gets. How are they going to react? Can anybody even guess?


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## the old dude (Feb 29, 2012)

haypoint said:


> Lots of city folks have second homes in rural areas. Many see that as there place to be, to hunt and forage. Such areas cannot support large groups.
> The initial wave, those that can get gas would be in the first hour. Then those that can steal fuel in the following days. A 60 mile walk would slow the millions, but eventually the remaining would have to resort to "hop scotching" from body to body for fresh meat.
> 
> So, after plundering the fuel, food, water, weapons, ammo and bodies of the millions, the last of the remaining 100,000 fully armed survivors will arrive at your place from the first day and each day after for about 3 weeks. Better put the coffee on, we've got company.....


many of my nearby neighbors are from NYC,100 miles due south of us. One day I was talking with a few of them thinking that they were just another group of dumb city slickers with lots of money for us country people to spend for them.

. I was supprised to find out that most were prepped for about a month but also found out many are heading for Chile and other SA countries when TSHsTF.


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