# Concerns With Off Grid



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Ok with thoughts of building a New House.We considerd going Off Grid.

First concern if we ever went to Resale,how much would this hurt the Price?

Next buying Gas Lights,change Refridgerators,Freezer,Solar Panels,just everything to change over.What if it don't work with our needs,wasted money,right?

Ok with running Max on electric now its costing $100 a month year round.Would Off Grid be justified?

big rockpile


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Sounds like you're trying your best to talk yourself out of off grid 

And from a money standpoint, if you never use more than 100/mo, you'll find it doesn't add up to be off grid. You win ! 

You can't beat the economy of scale when trying to compete with a utility company....otherwise, they wouldn't exist.

Most people are off grid because they have no choice in the matter.....it simply is not available OR the cost to get it to them is more than the cost of self generation.

I am not 'off grid'......my solar power feeds back to the grid, but also has the capability of going off grid ( battery backup ) IF the grid goes down.....or away.

Also, grid tie only solar systems are getting down to the point the return on your investment can be as little as 7-10 years ( or sooner if electric rates really jump ), in which case, it can be justified as a rational expense for something that WILL generate you a positive return after that.


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

We initially started building an off grid home in the sticks because we didn't want to pay the expense of running utilities. As we move forward in the project we are so happy we took this direction because we are building a home that can run near indefinitely on basic resources. E.g. wood, well water, and sunlight.

TnAndy is right -- the high cost of solar or wind for initial set up doesn't fare well against utility company pricing. It's sort of like buying a hybrid car. The breakeven doesn't make sense if you are just looking at the $ aspect of it. We were able to lower the initial start up cost by buying all of our solar equipment used. We found deals on Craigslist, eBay, and other forums. We are in for about 3-4k of solar costs but our setup can run all of our modest electrical needs for our cabin.

Long term I see an offgrid house being a good selling point. It is a differentiator and for the right people the cost of such a house could be justified. We don't plan on selling our land or cabin, ever, but I'm not worried about it if I ever needed to.


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

big rockpile said:


> Ok with thoughts of building a New House.We considerd going Off Grid.
> 
> First concern if we ever went to Resale,how much would this hurt the Price?
> 
> ...



Hi,
I don't know if this is true everywhere, but around here its very difficult to get a bank loan for an off -grid house -- this could effect both building it and selling.
I suppose this will change over time as banks get smarter about off-grid homes.
Something to check on anyway.

Gary


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## Windy in Kansas (Jun 16, 2002)

BRP your monthly utility bill will show your KWH used per month for the bill in hand.

Assuming that there is about a $25 cost per month for the meter and other add ons, that would leave about $75 for actual consumption. At 10Â¢ per KWH that would indicate that you are currently using in the neighborhood of 750 KWH per month or converting just to watts 750,000 per month.

To figure how much per day panels would need to produce divide the 750,000 per 30 days and you find you would need to generate 25,000 watts per day. 

I think at extreme best from what others have posted you might get 6 hours of sunlight per day that is usable toward the 25,000 watts, meaning you'd need panels producing 4,666 watts total for the 6 hours to give you the 25,000. 

4,666 wouldn't give you any extra for cloudy days, etc. At $3 per watt---X 4,666 =$12498 or $13,000 and that is without batteries, inverter, wiring, installation, etc. 

I'm sure others can chime in with a closer guesstimate than I. Remember too that I figured for your current needs with current appliances and not with a reduced consumption.


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## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

If you have any plans on selling the house, I would make sure it was wired like an on-grid house. You can add lines for 12V and gas, but don't get rid of the AC outlets and lighting circuits.

Personally, I would still base the house on 110/220V AC, even if its off grid. There's arguments for running straight 12V, but for me, they don't tip the balance. I like the convenience of AC. (latest wiring job was 250' of AC to the chicken coop's 8.4w LED Christmas lights)

For resale, if you've installed all the wire, all they have to do is bring in the power line, if they want.

Michael


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

I agree with the above statements. Wire/plumb as a "normal" home to avoid any issues in the future. Many of the Amish around here are required to totally wire their homes even though they have no thoughts of ever using it. 

On the other side of the coin, If you plan to be there forever with no interest of ever selling out for profit, Do it any way you feel fit.. That's my attitude here!


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## wind power (Sep 29, 2010)

The threshhold for "cheap" power is considered 10 cents a KW.
Now how much is cheap power in day to day reality is your personal aversion to cost.
Some people would love to have a 100 month power bill...I sure would I have two energy hogs running around in this house...my wife and my child....lol.

However some people wail amd moan at 75 dollars a month for a power bill....its all in what your tolerance level is.

It appears you are one of the "lucky" ones, but keep in mind the price hike storm clouds are always gathering again and again, so you have to ask yourself how long can you expect 10 cents a KW, 12 cent a KW, or even 15-18 cents a KW?

As to the wiring system keep that new house at 110 volts, there are pros and cons to lower voltage systems, however, if for some reason you ever sold your home, a lower voltage system could possibly be a ball and chain....in many ways like a swimming pool, it could possibly help in the sale price but also hurt you too.

Likewise gas appilances are a good choices too, but gas prices are also up and down...so the reality is we are still facing trying to eliminate the variable of higher energy costs...so whats our options????

One angle of attack on your situation would be to build a solar system you can add on too. So if you stay on the grid I would go for a grid tie inverter which would handle the most wattage I would use, or the most I could afford...whichever comes fist...however the cost will make you howl and that will usually drive the decision...lol. Then start adding solar panels as you need too or can afford too.
Some of the solar gurus around here have better detailed information on this stuff, than I.

Also you can dabble in wind power, I do but its not a "sit and forget" system like solar.
Wind power is like sailing on a tall ship, you're cranking handles and hoisting the sails...but with solar you're a barge hand bored out of your wits. But you need to really know your wind speeds for your area for it to be worthwhile adventure.....solar is by far a safer bet, especially if you are like an economist and toss around buz words like ROI.

Sometimes boredom is good though, especially if you like fishing, golf, chasing wifey around the house, hunting, bicycling, whittiling or rubbing two sticks together, surfing the net, checking the mailbox, etc etc


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Might want to do big detailed list of what you are using electric for now . . . . . . .
What can you do with out . .?
What do you consider that you Must have . . ?. . . air conditioning ?
What/where can you make some BIG cutbacks . .?
Does it make sense to change stove/hotwater to propane . ?

Your current electric usage dictates a spendy system . . .

A goodly number of folks who want to go off grid need / do a drastic cut back in their electrical usage . . .and learn that you can live without...........


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## roachhill (Jul 8, 2009)

I built my cabin w/o power then I'm adding it as I go and I found living w/o the electricity all I really need is a few lights, a fan, water pump and refrigerator, maybe some music. I scavenged a propane fridge from an old motor home to use until I can afford enough solar panels to run an electric one. The point is once you get away from they abundant grid power you may find it doesn't take nearly as much electricity to be comfortable as you once thought.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

The reason to go off grid, that can be justified financially up front, is because it costs too much to have the utility company bring in the power lines. That is the reason we did it back in 1977. Due to the cost of the electric lines and poles, and the minimum electric bill for years, we considered our original wind generator system to be paid for as soon as it started producing electricity. And we have since added PVs to the mix, and still using it at a different farm. But if you have the grid available, it is much cheaper to have a grid connected PV or wind electric system than an off grid battery based system, but of course it won't provide power when the grid is down.

But no matter what, the first step is to reduce your power output as much as possible. And a small solar electric system is much better for running lights than using oil or LP lighting.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

10 cents a KW/HR delivered?????

Im closer to 20,real world now.

And with the coming inflation the money you invest now has only that much better payback in the future.Solar cells have never been cheaper,2.50 watt is everywhere for a blem panel,and sales have seen less than 2 a watt NEW.

Economy of scale,more competition and the funky economy all are playing a role,and if they can sell em now at 2.50/3 dollar a watt and stay in business hopefully when the economy picks up this will remain the new prices.Only outsized demand should change this new paradigm,gotta love it,GO SOLAR!!!!


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## adamtheha (Mar 14, 2007)

For us, being off grid was a matter of not wanting to pay $13k to hook up to the grid.
Just FYI, most power bills include not just the 10c/kwhr, but "delivery" charges, and whatever else they can tack onto the bill. Back when I actually paid for electricity, I calculated the actual electricity was 1/2 of the total bill. The rest was infrastructure depreciation, which makes sense, because someone has to replace downed power lines, etc. My home used 400 kwhr back then, now I think we use about 250 per month. Rural power rates are much higher, about 20c/kwhr, plus the delivery charges. Bills run about $200/month on average for those on grid in my area. I spend about that much on gas, without any solar panels at all!


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

WisJim said:


> But if you have the grid available, it is much cheaper to have a grid connected PV or wind electric system than an off grid battery based system, *but of course it won't provide power when the grid is down.*


Unless you have a grid tied system with battery backup......then a flip of the transfer switch, and you're back in electricity 

Other than that minor point, I agree with everything you said.


On power bills, our use last month was 750kw/hrs and our bill was $7.50. The month before, it was $4.03. Power rate is 9 cents/hr.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

The base rate to have a meter here was $10 a month for a long time.
Not long ago it went to $12. In January it will go to $15 a month.....
Reasoning there is they (the utility) don't like a person like my self....because I use a very amount of grid...may be $10 or less a month. . . . .so they need a way to generate more income.
Also with a lot of seasonal places around here, there is no winter income from them . . .boy those seasonal KWH rates are jumping fast.

Folks we are far from where the electrical rate is going to go up to.

I have seen TnAndy's system . . .believe me, down the road he will be glad he has invested what he has in his system............

It really is past time for folks to think ahead and consider their options for these troubled times........


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Thanks Jim.....I'm pretty glad right now.... 

And getting ready to add another 10 Solarworld 245's to the mix. My goal is for my electric company to cut ME a monthly check since I've done the same favor for them for 30 years.....ahahhaaaaaa

Seriously....we've used 900kw/hrs/month for the last 30 years average.....and watched the bill grow from $25/mo to near 4 times that. We have cut our use down some by switching cooking out to propane, buying a fridge that is 1/2 the power hog the last one was, changing bulbs to LEDs and CFLs, but running 3 house freezers and a woodshop, there is only so much I can do.

I have a reasonable idea it's gonna do a lot worse than that down the road, and even a small chance it might not be there at all.....that's WHY I went with a grid tie ( due to the good infeed rate that helps pay for my system ) with battery backup.....for the outages we have ( I'm at the end of the line on off a branch that is the end of the line ), and for the possibility it might be the only steady power we have someday.


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## adamtheha (Mar 14, 2007)

Wow, rural power rates out here are btw $0.20 to $0.25/kwhr. Then they add on infrastructure costs, delivery charges...even $0.50 to print an invoice!!! The average bill here is $200 a month. People out here don't even blink, they just pay it. Heating with propane can cost upwards of $800/month in the coldest part of the year. Considering that we produce a major surplus of gas/electricity, why do we pay so much??? Or, should I say, why does everyone else pay so much, lol.


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