# Jamaican workers en route to do the jobs that Americans won't do



## cast iron (Oct 4, 2004)

> There was a moment when they first started calling this the "Great Recession," in 2008, that Steve Appel thought this might be the time.
> 
> Americans might come back to working on the farm.
> 
> ...


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/dannywestneat/2011952772_danny26.html?syndication=rss


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

But, But, I read/heard there were no jobs here, they were all heading overseas due to taxes and regulation........

anyway, this just goes to show that if anyone 'needs' a job, they are out there, now whether people 'want' a job is a whole different topic.

Oh well, folks that want to work will always find a way.


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## RiverPines (Dec 12, 2006)

Did they advertise all over the US and off free transportation to the farm?
Their local area may not have had enough of people but I bet they would of had enough if they offered this all over the country.
I know some people that would gladly have taken the offer as they are desperate for any work.
People desperate for work dont have money for transportation to another state and often not even to another county in their own state!
If they can fly in Jamaicans, maybe they could of looked all over the US and provided transportation?

I don't by it that Americans wont work it. There are just not enough locals available and outside of the region, never heard of anyone offering free transport unless its to bring in foreigners.

I bet its cheaper to fly in those Jamaicans than to offer transportation to people here.

In my area no farms are offering anything. No jobs here at all.
I wish we did have jobs here.


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## Guest (May 26, 2010)

Good grief, that's nothing new at all!! For MANY years companies have been bringing in workers from all over the world. In some cases because the foreign workers will do the same job for much less money, and in some cases because the foreign workers will do the jobs that Americans won't.

I actually posted about this, I guess it was last year. It would have been pruned by now, but I linked to articles about the meat plants that were(are) bringing in workers from Europe because the Mexicans were all going back home (due to increased INS raids and bigger penalties for companies hiring illegals).


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

RiverPines said:


> Did they advertise all over the US and off free transportation to the farm?
> Their local area may not have had enough of people but I bet they would of had enough if they offered this all over the country.


Probably not. 

I keep HEARING how there are all these jobs that Americans will not do, but they are certainly not all these jobs around where I live!!!!!!!


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## Guest (May 26, 2010)

Terri said:


> Probably not.
> 
> I keep HEARING how there are all these jobs that Americans will not do, but they are certainly not all these jobs around where I live!!!!!!!


There are around here.

About 10 miles from here is a valley where they have fruit groves and vegetable crops. Most of the workers are illegals because nobody else will do the work.

About 40 miles on the other side of me are dairy farms. Illegals all over because the farmers have so much trouble getting local workers.

My mother and stepfather bought this property 37 years ago. At that time most teenage boys stayed busy working for the farmers and ranchers after school, on weekends, and during the summer. (There were a few lazy teens who didn't try to find work, even then).

But now the teenagers are all too busy playing their video games and messing around with their computers and watching movies on cable.

Illegals do the jobs that the teens used to do.


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## RiverPines (Dec 12, 2006)

Terri said:


> Probably not.
> 
> I keep HEARING how there are all these jobs that Americans will not do, but they are certainly not all these jobs around where I live!!!!!!!


Thats what gets me...how come none of these jobs are never around here?

My friend right now was a professional roofer, layed off, and she needs a job bad. She has 2 kids, a DH and they are hurting. She will do anything!!
Even though she is a skilled roofer, she even worked at a deli as counter girl for min wage till they close up the store. Now she is back to searching.
She loves hard work, hence she is a roofer!! She would do this job in a heart beat!!!!!

I dont think they want Americans. I wonder as I said if its cheaper to import people and what perks are in it for the employer? There has got to be something that stops them from looking all over our own nation instead of shipping in others.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

From the article:

"Before a farm can use this agricultural guest-worker program, called H-2A, it has to prove there aren't "able, willing, and qualified United States workers available," says the U.S. Department of Labor website.

Able and qualified, I'm guessing that's no problem. But willing?

"They couldn't find 'em," Appel said. "Believe me, no farmer wants to fly in its workers from Jamaica or anywhere else. For starters, you have to pay for the plane tickets.""


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## RiverPines (Dec 12, 2006)

joseph97297 said:


> From the article:
> 
> "Before a farm can use this agricultural guest-worker program, called H-2A, it has to prove there aren't "able, willing, and qualified United States workers available," says the U.S. Department of Labor website.
> 
> ...


I dont buy it. They could of found them if they offered, advertised in all states and provided free transportation. They didnt do that.
I never saw any thing here with that offer!
They looked local. How many locals need a job on farm?
Most work in towns and cities and thats all they know.
You have to go across country to get a large quantity.
They got some locally but not enough.

I dont think any place has hundreds of people looking for farm hand jobs all in one small area.
That plane trip is probably cheaper than transporting people from all over the nation. Its still not that Americans 'wont' do it. Its that they all dont live in the neighborhood!
It would be better if it was Americans 'cant' do because they dont live close enough!

I am sick of the Americans are lazy perspectives. Thats such a false statement.
American doesn't = lazy!
A lot of Americans bust their balls for their keep.
People can be lazy in any nation.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

One question, are the workers considered to be self-employed and have to pay their own taxes, ss, and other compensation? Many Americans aren't willing to do the extra paperwork. Immigrants don't care, they just pocket the cash and fly out of US and IRS jurisdiction. 

As for advertising all over the US, I sure didn't see any ads like that. I know people who would have been willing to take that job. They might not have been willing to share bunk housing with 99 other people though.

I seriously doubt they advertised very much. The whole article sounds more like a "keep the illegals" bit of propaganda than anything else.


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## Yldrosie (Jan 28, 2006)

How many of those jamaicans will jump ship and wind up with an anchor baby? Life is good once you know the ropes in the US.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I just had another thought, Jamacians are probably used to picking fruit and know how to do it. Since the illegal influx began Americans have been kept from doing fruit picking jobs for a variety of reasons. How many Americans who haven't grown up on a commercial orchard would know how and when to pick different fruits? If the orchard insisted on a work history of fruit picking I'm sure very few Americans could be considered to be "qualified".


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## sewserious (Apr 2, 2010)

As for teenagers picking fruit and veggies in the fields, many states and the federal government label so many jobs as dangerous, they can't work. Wal-Mart would not hire my youngest until she turned 18 because they have a cardboard baler, and no one under the age of 18 is allowed anywhere near it due to federal "safety" laws. There goes a bunch of jobs for teenagers right there. She had a very hard time finding a job until she turned 18; most places just won't hire you if you are underage except fast-food places; and a couple of years ago, not many of them were hiring or wouldn't work with her hours so she could go to school full time at night!


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## Guest (May 27, 2010)

Well, I haven't found some specific articles I've been looking for, but these are of interest.

These are geared towards the meat packing industry, because what I'm looking for concerns that industry.

A LONG Mother Jones article, scroll down a bit:

...starting in the early 1960s, a company called Iowa Beef Packers (IBP) began to revolutionize the industry, opening plants in rural areas far from union strongholds, recruiting immigrant workers from Mexico, introducing a new division of labor that eliminated the need for skilled butchers...

http://motherjones.com/politics/2001/07/chain-never-stops


*Burmese workers replace illegal meat processing workers*

When the Swift beef processing plant in tiny Cactus, TX, was raided in late 2006 ... hundreds of illegal Hispanic workers were carted off. For months the plant was barely operational...

http://www.workingimmigrants.com/2008/06/burmese_workers_replace_illega.html


*American Workers Replacing Illegal Workers at Poultry Plant*

(a good news article!)

http://www.numbersusa.com/content/n...orkers-getting-jobs-raided-poultry-plant.html


*Clash of cultures: Somali and Latino workers at U.S. meat packing plants*

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Clash_of_cultures:_Somali_and_Latino_workers_at_U.S._meat_packing_plants


A VERY interesting article published July 25, 2001

http://www.vdare.com/fulford/usa_today.htm


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

I would gladly take on picking jobs in the summer - grew up doing it. But in the past mom's could take their kids in the field with them. Now they can't do it unless the kids are at least 12 years old.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Well when the oil patch was booming i told lots of locals about jobs only one from this area went . Lots want jobs one block away and heaven forbid they got to start early or work late . Then the drug test . They had Jamaican workers at their McDonald's one restaurant closed for lack of help 13.00 per hour + tips .


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## cast iron (Oct 4, 2004)

Why should this farm business be propped up if they cannot make a go of it on their own?

Why should they be special when other businesses who face similar consumer and empoyment market conditions do not enjoy the same type of safety net?

Should we fly Jamaicans in to do the factory labor jobs as well, maybe put them up in the many long-vacant commercial buildings near the factories? 

Who pays the freight for transporting these Jamaicans, and all the accompanying costs?
I assume the farmer is not paying the bill, so that leaves either you and I (.gov) or the Jamaican government.


I suspect the business owner in this situation may not be open to flying American workers in from other parts of the U.S. simply because of previous disappointing history, and I'm not sure I can blame him. How many American workers would he have to go through to get a stable, productive, low maintenance workforce of the 1000 people he requires? I would be interested to know the turnover ratio difference between the American workforce and the Jamaican workforce in this situation. 

This guy has claimed for some time that he has not been able to secure a 1000 count American workforce to do the jobs that need to be done in his farm business. Do we think he is just lying about the whole situation?


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Don't know how many days a year he needs help . I bet not many . You can't live somewhere all year for a 60 day job.

Here someone gets mad they walk away those folks quit they would have a hard time thrumming it unless they can fly :help::help:


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

In the NorthEast hospitality companies use Jamaican workers all the time because they can't find locals to do it. The companies pay for their airfare, lodging, food and must guarantee them $10 an hour. In the summer they come over for work in the coastal areas, they go home for a few months and then they come back in the winter to work the ski resorts. Most of them work 2 jobs, double shifts, etc.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

RiverPines said:


> Thats what gets me...how come none of these jobs are never around here?
> 
> My friend right now was a professional roofer, layed off, and she needs a job bad. She has 2 kids, a DH and they are hurting. *She will do anything!!*
> Even though she is a skilled roofer, she even worked at a deli as counter girl for min wage till they close up the store. Now she is back to searching.
> ...



Will they move?


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## Guest (May 27, 2010)

Aintlifegrand said:


> Will they move?


Good question to ask. There are places along the gulf where they are desperate for roofers. I read a couple of news articles that stated they've hired a lot of Mexicans (w/ or w/o Visas), to work in the construction and roofing crews because otherwise they just couldn't find enough labor.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

There are some additional considerations. They will pay the imported workers less- if the imported workers complain, they are just cut loose. Most imported workers do not file for worker's comp which keep the amount the farm needs to pay for that insurance low. They don't strike. They can be bullied into unsuitable and dangerous work.
To determine there are no employee locally, they advertise three times in two papers- the Podunk Press and the Weekly Shopper.
A lot of employers deduct various taxes from the employee and don't bother to pay them in to the various agencies. They don't provide facilities for their workers.
You bet that, if they were prevented from hiring overseas, they would have (surpise, surprise) cherry pickers (no carrying 40 lbs up trees) and tree shakers (no carrying anything but boxes on the ground) and whatever makes American workers more efficient in other industries. It's simply cheaper and easier to get around the regs than to follow them.
What imported workers are is a way to avoid all the myriad laws in the various states and with the Feds. 
Not that I don't have sympathy for all the ridiculous rules they face but who doesn't have to deal with them.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

ladycat said:


> Good question to ask. There are places along the gulf where they are desperate for roofers. I read a couple of news articles that stated they've hired a lot of Mexicans (w/ or w/o Visas), to work in the construction and roofing crews because otherwise they just couldn't find enough labor.


There are places here in NWest La.. that are begging for experienced roofers...cost of living is good.. weather is good.. work mostly year around here in roofing..I know a few contacts if she is interested...


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

ladycat said:


> Good question to ask. There are places along the gulf where they are desperate for roofers. I read a couple of news articles that stated they've hired a lot of Mexicans (w/ or w/o Visas), to work in the construction and roofing crews because otherwise they just couldn't find enough labor.



Again, a contractor who makes a bid with illegal or immigrant labor can do it at a lot less than one who doesn't. He'll get the jobs where the person who pays scale will not.


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## Guest (May 27, 2010)

where I want to said:


> You bet that, if they were prevented from hiring overseas, they would have (surpise, surprise) cherry pickers (no carrying 40 lbs up trees) and tree shakers (no carrying anything but boxes on the ground) and whatever makes American workers more efficient in other industries.


I know only a tiny bit about fruit picking, but here's what I understand.

In order to use machinery, first of all, the ground has to be cleared out from beneath the trees. Impossible to keep it immaculate, since there are continuously leaves and twigs falling, insects dying, etc.

When the fruit hits the ground, it bruises. Also, a lot of moldy, insect-eaten, and over-/under- ripe fruit makes it through.

True, there are workers in the sheds who are supposed to sort out the good from the bad, but a lot of bad still gets through.

Machine-harvested fruit goes for juice, preserves, or otherwise will be used in processing in which the individual state of the fruits is less important (reminds me of how the eggs with "spots" inside are sold to commercial food processors, who use them in baked goods because they can't be seen that way. Which is sickening. I've seen some of the nauseating "spots" in my homegrown eggs. I discard those eggs).

Fruit which is destined for the fresh produce counter, or otherwise in uses in which the individual fruits will be visible, are best picked by hand.

I think, though, that there are some kind of ground covers which can be used under the trees so that machine-harvested fruit is less likely to be bruised. At least, it seems like I read about something like that somewhere.


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## deb (Jul 27, 2002)

ladycat said:


> When the fruit hits the ground, it bruises. Also, a lot of moldy, insect-eaten, and over-/under- ripe fruit makes it through.


The only things that are normally shaken from trees are nuts. Everything else gets too bruised.

deb
in wi


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

They have been coming here to Michigan for generations now, working on our TOP resort island. I know young men who have applied for these jobs year after year and have been turned down in order for the Jamaicans to get the jobs. It is a shame.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

It still comes back to way free enterprise works. Its not a lack of available labor, its a lack of labor AT A PRICE THEY WANT TO PAY. Offer $30 an hour and you will have more American workers than you can shake a stick at even for hard short term seasonal work. 

Has anybody considered that even $14 an hour for seasonal work not lasting very long isnt going to pay living costs in the area mentioned? See you talk "American workers", then you talk "jobs teens used to take". Well which is it??? Jobs that give teens bit of spending money compared to a real life 'pay the rent' job are two different things. You want American workers you need offer a living wage. Simple as that. Depending on child labor or desperate 3rd world labor isnt saying much for your buisiness model. Want to pay 50cents a day for labor, go start a farm in those 3rd world countries and then SELL TO THAT LOCAL MARKET. How much can you charge people making 50cents a day? Hmm? Workers cant spend more than they make. Henry Ford knew that, but capitalists today seem to have forgotten that and all want to produce for and sell to the upper crust of society for that premium profit margin. News flash, the upper crust isnt a big percentage of the population.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

ladycat said:


> Also, a lot of moldy, insect-eaten, and over-/under- ripe fruit makes it through.
> 
> Fruit which is destined for the fresh produce counter, or otherwise in uses in which the individual fruits will be visible, are best picked by hand.


You must have better supplied produce departments in your grocery store than I do. Most produce offered may look attactive from a distance, but its hard, unripe, tasteless carp when you try to eat it. Much of it remains tasteless carp no matter how long you age it. Way overpriced for what it is. I just cant believe people are willing to buy it at any price, but then guess most people arent aware of what real produce tastes like anymore. Just add more sugar and 'special sauce' to make up for lack of any real flavor.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Wonder if there will be a huge Culture Battle started over THEIR status and trying to make THEM all legal whilst ignoring their illegal statuses (not that this particualr batch of workers is illegal, just sayin')? Probably not, since it doesn't serve The Administration any benefit. You can only be considered racist if you are speaking out against whatever race is considered the underdog at the moment.


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## Guest (May 31, 2010)

deb said:


> The only things that are normally shaken from trees are nuts. Everything else gets too bruised.
> 
> deb
> in wi


Couple hours of googling just paid off, I remembered my facts correctly and learned a few new things, too.

If you'll do some googling, you will find a lot of sites about machine-harvesting fruits and vegetables. And you can go to youtube and find tons of videos showing the machines at work.

There are 2 general ways of machine harvesting tree fruit- 

catchframe 










and ground net.



















You can see how the green fruit can be "poured" from the ground net into the bins, but ripe fruit has to be picked up by hand to minimize bruising.

This explains in pictures how a citrus harvester using a catch frame works:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/hs238


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

beccachow said:


> Wonder if there will be a huge Culture Battle started over THEIR status and trying to make THEM all legal whilst ignoring their illegal statuses (not that this particualr batch of workers is illegal, just sayin')? Probably not, since it doesn't serve The Administration any benefit. You can only be considered racist if you are speaking out against whatever race is considered the underdog at the moment.


Ummm, just for the record, there are white Jamaicans, and they work up here too.


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## Guest (May 31, 2010)

vickiesmom said:


> Ummm, just for the record, there are white Jamaicans, and they work up here too.


Contrary to popular belief, there are also white Haitians and white people living in New Orleans.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Probably because it's a temporary job and repetitive (can cause injuries..I know because I have a repetitive motion injury from working at Michael Dell's manufacturing plants and he does hire illegals) motions can cause other physical problems in the long run. Honestly, if you were to stand on an assembly line doing the same thing (cutting up meat in a particular way repetitively) every day, you'll develop problems. Americans know this and aren't interested.

As for roofing, I want to learn but not in Kansas because it is seasonal.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

TedH71 said:


> Probably because it's a temporary job and repetitive (can cause injuries..I know because I have a repetitive motion injury from working at Michael Dell's manufacturing plants and he does hire illegals) motions can cause other physical problems in the long run. Honestly, if you were to stand on an assembly line doing the same thing (cutting up meat in a particular way repetitively) every day, you'll develop problems. Americans know this and aren't interested.
> 
> As for roofing, I want to learn but not in Kansas because it is seasonal.



So it's ok to treat foreign workers this way? Nonsense- it comes down to economics- cheap, throwaway people. Who actually don't really just disappear when they are used up.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

vickiesmom said:


> Ummm, just for the record, there are white Jamaicans, and they work up here too.


Also for the record, will anyone be screaming for THEIR rights if they are illegal? DOn't really care what their colors are, and that was the point.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

beccachow said:


> Also for the record, will anyone be screaming for THEIR rights if they are illegal? DOn't really care what their colors are, and that was the point.


I was responding to your comment about race, which is really not the issue in any of the illegal issues. Nationality is, not race. But don't worry, people confuse the two all of the time.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2010)

vickiesmom said:


> Nationality is, not race. But don't worry, people confuse the two all of the time.


Yeppers.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

vickiesmom said:


> I was responding to your comment about race, which is really not the issue in any of the illegal issues. Nationality is, not race. But don't worry, people confuse the two all of the time.


Then why are we being called racist for supporting the AZ law? And why is it considered "racial profiling" to pull over an Hispanic? Thought I was the only one who KNEW there was a difference the way a lot of people have been acting :shrug:.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

beccachow said:


> Then why are we being called racist for supporting the AZ law? And why is it considered "racial profiling" to pull over an Hispanic? Thought I was the only one who KNEW there was a difference the way a lot of people have been acting :shrug:.


Because people are ignorant, and terminology usually takes a while to catch up. People yell racist about everything. I'm called racist daily, but if you really look up the word, that is the last thing i am. Prejudiced? Guilty! I believe a white person will say something stupid about my race as soon as i meet them, and rarely have i been disappointed. Now, about racial profiling, that is a trickier thing, if you are pulling over people because they 'look' illegal (?) how does that work? I knew a lady who was here illegally from Italy, and never worried about being hassled because she was white, no one ever batted an eye at her. So, now, if AZ would pull everybody over, that would be ok, but only brown skinned people, that is a problem.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

The U.S. has been importing workers from other countrys for years. 
The people in the U.S. wants the jobs in the area they live. I can understand that. But the truth is there isn't always jobs in all areas for all the people. Sometimes a person will have to relocate. If you are unwilling to relocate you will have to accept the jobs in your area or no job at all.
You can't expect employers to bring the job to you. You can't blame employers for hiring workers that will come to where the job is.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2010)

pancho said:


> The U.S. has been importing workers from other countrys for years.
> The people in the U.S. wants the jobs in the area they live. I can understand that. But the truth is there isn't always jobs in all areas for all the people. Sometimes a person will have to relocate. If you are unwilling to relocate you will have to accept the jobs in your area or no job at all.
> You can't expect employers to bring the job to you. You can't blame employers for hiring workers that will come to where the job is.


Most people are not going to want to relocate for a job that lasts a few weeks a year. That's why migrant workers have been handy for many decades.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ladycat said:


> Most people are not going to want to relocate for a job that lasts a few weeks a year. That's why migrant workers have been handy for many decades.


I agree and understand. I wouldn't relocate for a temporary job but I have a permament job.
I just can't understand people who complain about people who do a job they will not do. The job has to be done so we can have food to eat. If no one here is willing to do the job we have to get the workers from somewhere.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2010)

This is a catch22 for Americans..need a job? Yes..will you work in an orchard in the NW? Yes..then relocate..oops..how the heck do you do that? You need money to relocate..then when you get there, where will you live? 

If an orchard owner in the NW needs a thousand workers for a few months of picking, I know a bunch of young people here in Missouri who'd be grateful for that opportunity..they'd hop on a bus and travel with a small suitcase, and live in a barracks for a few months..and yet, no ads here for any orchard farmer willing to pay transportation and provide housing for temporary workers.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

bostonlesley said:


> This is a catch22 for Americans..need a job? Yes..will you work in an orchard in the NW? Yes..then relocate..oops..how the heck do you do that? You need money to relocate..then when you get there, where will you live?
> 
> If an orchard owner in the NW needs a thousand workers for a few months of picking, I know a bunch of young people here in Missouri who'd be grateful for that opportunity..they'd hop on a bus and travel with a small suitcase, and live in a barracks for a few months..and yet, no ads here for any orchard farmer willing to pay transportation and provide housing for temporary workers.


How many of those young people would do the job if they were there?
Another reason the owners import workers is they will do a good job and finish it. Not many young people could do the job. It is hard on a person going from sitting at home playing games to working a full day in an orchard.
Not many would be able to put in a good full days work. The fruit will not wait on them to learn how to work. They have to come there with experience and willing and able to do the job. Just not any young people nowdays that can or would do the job.


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

Maybe those of yyou who would like this job or know many who would love to go pick fruit should e-mail or call this orchard and give the owner an alternative to hireing the Jamacans. Get back to us as to the response. Lots of negative assumptions made about this farm.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

bruce2288 said:


> Maybe those of yyou who would like this job or know many who would love to go pick fruit should e-mail or call this orchard and give the owner an alternative to hireing the Jamacans. Get back to us as to the response. Lots of negative assumptions made about this farm.


Very good suggestion.
Somehow I don't think the owner will get many calls or emails from people wanting a job.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

Is this the first harvest this grower has ever had? Did the fruit rot until he found out there were pickers in Jamaica? Seems funny that is an all out disaster at one time.


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Wanda said:


> Is this the first harvest this grower has ever had? Did the fruit rot until he found out there were pickers in Jamaica? Seems funny that is an all out disaster at one time.


Did you read the op at all?


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

DaleK said:


> Did you read the op at all?




So I am to believe that he has never had a worker from this country?? There are many people that use crews from Mexico to harvest fruit and do orchard work. Why did the visit from the INS cause his to leave? Some things do not add up. Why will they not disclose the number of people that answered there help wanted adds. Did they hire any of them? To many things not answered for me to feel bad for the orchard. Maybe he should find something to raise that can be machine harvested.


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

Wanda. You do need to read the article. The farm had to lay-off the workers (fire) because they had no proof of citizenship. They did not leave voluntarily. I picked cherries and apricots in New Zealand 20 years ago. not a bad job most of the time wet trees ssucked but so do a lot of things. If you wanted to make decent money you had to WORK paid by the lug picked. Standing around visiting or picking your nose you didn't make much some of those were eventually asked to leave. Nobody asked you to feel bad for the orchard, they had a problem, no workers and solved it. Feel sorry for the people on welfare or unemployment who think picking fruit is beneath them.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2010)

pancho said:


> How many of those young people would do the job if they were there?
> Another reason the owners import workers is they will do a good job and finish it. Not many young people could do the job. It is hard on a person going from sitting at home playing games to working a full day in an orchard.
> Not many would be able to put in a good full days work. The fruit will not wait on them to learn how to work. They have to come there with experience and willing and able to do the job. Just not any young people nowdays that can or would do the job.


Sad that you think so..the young folks around here are very hard workers..Ya know, I think I WILL try to contact that orchard owner and ask him about an ad for workers in the "Show Me" state..


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

bostonlesley said:


> Sad that you think so..the young folks around here are very hard workers..Ya know, I think I WILL try to contact that orchard owner and ask him about an ad for workers in the "Show Me" state..


Why don't a group of those hard working young folks get together and pool their money and go where the jobs are? Not much stopping them from going to where there is work, especially if they are young folks really looking for a job. Surely they could pool enough money for a trip there. Young single folks can move easily and cheap. It wouldn't take much money for a group to go together.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

Couldn't there be a thread where farmers post on this board? I am sure there are people with hardworking family members who would be interested in the listing.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

That top vacation island in Michigan that vickismom mentioned is Mackinac Island. Forty years ago, the hotels and stores and carrage tours hired college students for the summer. Gradually the only ones that came out to the island wanted to party their earnings away.
Very few students come out there to work. So, they hire people from around the world to fill these jobs. They run ads in several Michigan newspapers.
I know of one Jamacian gal that worked two jobs on Mackinac Island, waiting tables and cleaning rooms. She earned $30,000 in 90 days. But that was a lot of work. 
These workers send their money home every month. Many move to the Rocky Mt. ski resorts for the winter months.
At one time I was against companies hiring people from other countries and I objected to the "jobs we won't do" catch phrase. But it is true. Our school kids aren't picking cherries or mowing lawns or painting fences as was common 40 years ago. College students aren't earning tuition during the summer as they once did.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

That's true, but I didn't mention the name because all the island needs is bad publicity. I don't believe that is true, because my sons and their friends have applied for these jobs, which we only found because of someone working in the state of michigan employment offices. The island does not advertise in the college newspapers or recruit in the colleges, so of course no one is going to know these jobs are available.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2010)

pancho said:


> Why don't a group of those hard working young folks get together and pool their money and go where the jobs are? Not much stopping them from going to where there is work, especially if they are young folks really looking for a job. Surely they could pool enough money for a trip there. Young single folks can move easily and cheap. It wouldn't take much money for a group to go together.


Why doesn't a group of Jamaicans get together and pool their money and go where the jobs are?


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## jerzeygurl (Jan 21, 2005)

Hard to blame the kids...we've taught them that manual labor isnt respectable, that the only good job is a white collar job, and their only job is to get educated and get the all mighty degree.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

I agree whole heartedly. My dad went only as far as the eighth gr ade, worked as a coal miner, then went into the air force, then worked another 30 years in a rendering plant, he bought a house and lived the american dream...now every body wants to earn the big money behind a computer and not get their hands dirty.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

bostonlesley said:


> Why doesn't a group of Jamaicans get together and pool their money and go where the jobs are?


We don't see any Jamaicans on here griping about jobs. What we see in people from our own country griping because the man won't bring his orchard to them.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

I just contacted our two news channels to ask them why when Michigan has staggering unemployment, and is hosting a policy conference on Mackinac Island, are those very people being waited on by foreign workers instead of needy Michiganders. I will keep you updated if anyone responds.


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

vickiesmom, Good for you maybe we can get some answers and reasons. Instead of just our guesses.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

ladycat said:


> There are around here.
> 
> About 10 miles from here is a valley where they have fruit groves and vegetable crops. Most of the workers are illegals because nobody else will do the work.
> 
> ...


Maybe there are too many ILLEGALS and the LEGALS don't want to live in their squander? Is there any other industry in town to sustain LEGALS during downtimes on the farm? How old were the "teens" before? Now there are child labor laws that prevents children under 16 from getting a job. There are many excuses although none of the ones you used hold water.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

joseph97297 said:


> From the article:
> 
> "Before a farm can use this agricultural guest-worker program, called H-2A, it has to prove there aren't "able, willing, and qualified United States workers available," says the U.S. Department of Labor website.
> 
> ...


H-2A program requirements


> The employer must place an advertisement on two (2) separate days, which may be consecutive, one of which must be on a Sunday in a newspaper of general circulation serving the area of intended employment and is appropriate to the occupation and the workers likely to apply for the job opportunity.


How about a nationwide search of more than 2 days before they bring in immigrants?


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

pancho said:


> The U.S. has been importing workers from other countrys for years.
> The people in the U.S. wants the jobs in the area they live. I can understand that. But the truth is there isn't always jobs in all areas for all the people. Sometimes a person will have to relocate. If you are unwilling to relocate you will have to accept the jobs in your area or no job at all.
> You can't expect employers to bring the job to you. You can't blame employers for hiring workers that will come to where the job is.


Although this farmer was willing to pay for plane tickets for the Jamaicans although not for Americans. So, YES, we can blame the employer. A job making $15/hr for 30 days is not worth a $500 plane ticket unless the pay is raised or the employer pays. It's simple economics. After paying Uncle Sam 30% of that $15/hr there's not much left.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

pancho said:


> How many of those young people would do the job if they were there?
> Another reason the owners import workers is they will do a good job and finish it. Not many young people could do the job. It is hard on a person going from sitting at home playing games to working a full day in an orchard.
> Not many would be able to put in a good full days work. The fruit will not wait on them to learn how to work. *They have to come there with experience* and willing and able to do the job. Just not any young people nowdays that can or would do the job.


Here's the problem with today's society. What ever happened to learning on the job? Everybody wants someone already trained although noone is willing to train them.

What's next? A fruit picker PHD in college will be required? If you are paying menial wages expect no experience.

It's like that hybrid vehicle battery plant in MI(the first in the U.S.) they wanted experienced workers although they were the first plant in the US to make these darned things!!!!!! Common sense tells me if I want someone to know how I want things done I have to show them how I want it done!!!


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

Wanda said:


> So I am to believe that he has never had a worker from this country?? There are many people that use crews from Mexico to harvest fruit and do orchard work. Why did the visit from the INS cause his to leave? Some things do not add up. Why will they not disclose the number of people that answered there help wanted adds. Did they hire any of them? To many things not answered for me to feel bad for the orchard. Maybe he should find something to raise that can be machine harvested.


Well he had 1300 jobs and only flew in 300 jamaicans so apparently he did find a few Americans willing to work....lol


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## Guest (Jun 3, 2010)

blooba said:


> Maybe there are too many ILLEGALS and the LEGALS don't want to live in their squander? Is there any other industry in town to sustain LEGALS during downtimes on the farm? How old were the "teens" before? Now there are child labor laws that prevents children under 16 from getting a job. There are many excuses although none of the ones you used hold water.


There were illegals back then, too, except they were primarily around during harvest seasons.

Child labor laws in agriculture is different from other sectors.

*(1) A child of ages 12 or 13 may work where a parent or guardian (a) consents to the childâs employment or (b) is employed on the same farm as the child.

(2) A child under age 12 may work where (a) the child is employed by a parent or guardian on a farm owned or operated by the parent or guardian, or (b) the child is employed, with the consent of a parent or guardian, on a small farm as defined in the FLSA.

(3) A child of age 10 or 11 may work as a hand-harvest laborer for no more than 8 weeks in a year.*

More here:
http://www.stopchildlabor.org/USchildlabor/fact1.htm


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## ldc (Oct 11, 2006)

OK, it's been years, but the last time I did farm labor I earned the Agricultural Minimun wage which was about $1.87, when the office Min wage was up to about $3.25. So these fruit pickers are working for $15/hr, and then an above poster says it's piecework? A girlfriend and I looked into picking fruit in the PNW when articles in the newspaper said it was $14/hr, about 3 summers ago. We couldn't believe it! When we looked further we discovered the farms were charging outrageous rent to live in not really converted chicken houses, all groceries available from the farm store, and all of this was deducted from the Ag Min Wage + whatever earned from piecework (can't remember the exact term for this). The season wasn't guaranteed, so we did other things. I can't quite believe these stories, and I used to earn $ every year as farm labor! ldc


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

blooba said:


> Here's the problem with today's society. What ever happened to learning on the job? Everybody wants someone already trained although noone is willing to train them.
> 
> What's next? A fruit picker PHD in college will be required? If you are paying menial wages expect no experience.
> 
> It's like that hybrid vehicle battery plant in MI(the first in the U.S.) they wanted experienced workers although they were the first plant in the US to make these darned things!!!!!! Common sense tells me if I want someone to know how I want things done I have to show them how I want it done!!!


 tree bulle deghis colleg

So True!!! That is all of this college degree stuff. So ridiculous. I remember when Journalism was a 2 year degree, the days when there were great journalist. Now you have to go to school forever to write for People magazine.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

I didn't hear about these jobs or I would put my daughter's boyfriend on a bus.


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2010)

Cornhusker said:


> I didn't hear about these jobs or I would put my daughter's boyfriend on a bus.


:clap:


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

That's the problem I'm having. I have TWO certificates from one college. Machining Technology and Composite Technology. They're hiring but only will hire you if you have 3-5 years of experience. Where do I get my entry level experience?!?!?!?!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

blooba said:


> Here's the problem with today's society. What ever happened to learning on the job? Everybody wants someone already trained although noone is willing to train them.
> 
> What's next? A fruit picker PHD in college will be required? If you are paying menial wages expect no experience.
> 
> It's like that hybrid vehicle battery plant in MI(the first in the U.S.) they wanted experienced workers although they were the first plant in the US to make these darned things!!!!!! Common sense tells me if I want someone to know how I want things done I have to show them how I want it done!!!


In yesterdays society there was a thing called work ethics. The majority of people wanted to work. The majority learned how to work as a kid. Most had some kind of training before they were old enough to get a real job.

Todays society has little work ethics. The majority do not want to work. There are plenty of programs to help those who choose not to work to live compfortably. Very few kids learn to work. Even menial pay is too much to spend if there is not a return to your investment.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

pancho said:


> In yesterdays society there was a thing called work ethics. The majority of people wanted to work. The majority learned how to work as a kid. Most had some kind of training before they were old enough to get a real job.
> 
> Todays society has little work ethics. The majority do not want to work. There are plenty of programs to help those who choose not to work to live compfortably. Very few kids learn to work. Even menial pay is too much to spend if there is not a return to your investment.


We live in a society where youth and inexperience rules the day. I stopped working in retail when my bosses were the same age as my kids. They were rude, had little home training, respected no one, and needed you to cover their behinds after they had partied all . In one job, , the store manager position was passed over my head for a 19 year old who did not even know how to use the cash register. They expected me to train her...I didn't hire her, so I wasn't training her.


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## Guest (Jun 22, 2010)

Hey guys, you've GOT to see this 1959 film:

Produced to justify the bracero farm labor program to the general public, especially American citizens in California who felt threatened by the influx of workers over the border from Mexico

http://www.archive.org/details/WhyBrace1959


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ladycat said:


> Hey guys, you've GOT to see this 1959 film:
> 
> Produced to justify the bracero farm labor program to the general public, especially American citizens in California who felt threatened by the influx of workers over the border from Mexico
> 
> http://www.archive.org/details/WhyBrace1959


Really not much has changed in over 50 years. Same problem, same solutions.


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## Guest (Jun 22, 2010)

pancho said:


> Really not much has changed in over 50 years. Same problem, same solutions.


I know; that's one reason I found it so fascinating! 

The more things change, the more they stay the same!


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

I've come to the conclusion that the south and west coast must have either a surplus of good jobs, surplus of lazy Americans, or a surplus of unscrupulous employers. I'd say the last is the most likely. Myself and others where I live have done a lot of work that folks in the south and west coast claim no American wants to do. About a month ago I finished working at a tree nursery working along side other legal Americans out in the field planting small trees by hand. I drive past the Christmas tree fields and see plenty of legal folks working their tail off (I've worked there in the past myself). Yet in some parts of the country people would like to claim that no American will do those types of jobs. They are either lying or ignorant of how illegal employers work. When will people figure it out that foreign workers legal or illegal equals exploitation? It is not that no Americans will do the work it is that foreign workers have no protections. 

Since I have *first hand experience* with seasonal work I know what type of people take the type of jobs that "no American wants". Some have criminal records which makes getting a real job more difficult, some are teens, some are just mentally slow, and some of them are folks who have no choice since the job market sucks. It gets on my nerves hearing opinions on the subject by folks who never worked at a migrant or seasonal type job in their life claim that somehow they just *"know"* that no Americans will do the work.

Someday when the rest of the nation resembles California (or worse) perhaps people will realize that all that cheap food wasn't worth it in the end. You get what you pay for and I fear it will be the destruction of this nation.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

pancho said:


> Really not much has changed in over 50 years. Same problem, same solutions.


The solution is to take a large mall and smash the fingers of mega farms and huge food corporations that have a death grip on our nation's food supply into a bloody pulp. Over fifty years ago my Grandma was able to buy her first car with money from selling eggs to the egg man. It took her the summer to do this and the car was a two year old car. I'd like to see someone try that today. Mexico has the ability to grow produce 365 days a year. If food was expensive enough to support a decent wage for Mexican farmers (like it should be) there would be no need for Mexican nationals (who obviously love their country) to have to make a living up here in the US.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

PhilJohnson said:


> The solution is to take a large mall and smash the fingers of mega farms and huge food corporations that have a death grip on our nation's food supply into a bloody pulp. Over fifty years ago my Grandma was able to buy her first car with money from selling eggs to the egg man. It took her the summer to do this and the car was a two year old car. I'd like to see someone try that today. Mexico has the ability to grow produce 365 days a year. If food was expensive enough to support a decent wage for Mexican farmers (like it should be) there would be no need for Mexican nationals (who obviously love their country) to have to make a living up here in the US.


There are still people making money selling eggs. Trouble is there are a lot more people wanting to buy eggs nowdays than there were in your grandma's days. With the population we have today and the way it is concentrated in certain areas it is nearly impossible for the normal family flock to sell them the eggs. Extremely large number of eggs have to be delivered to large concentrations of people. The family flock owner cannot afford to deliver the eggs at a number that is needed.
We have to have factory farms, no choice. Family flocks cannot do the job and people have to eat.

I can remember when I was young we paid our grocery bill with eggs traded to the grocery store owner. It was my job to provide the care of the flock.
I know and understand how it once was but I still like to eat and can also understand others feel the same. We just can't depend on the owner of a home flock to deliver the needed products to us.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

pancho said:


> There are still people making money selling eggs. Trouble is there are a lot more people wanting to buy eggs nowdays than there were in your grandma's days. With the population we have today and the way it is concentrated in certain areas it is nearly impossible for the normal family flock to sell them the eggs. Extremely large number of eggs have to be delivered to large concentrations of people. The family flock owner cannot afford to deliver the eggs at a number that is needed.
> We have to have factory farms, no choice. Family flocks cannot do the job and people have to eat.
> 
> I can remember when I was young we paid our grocery bill with eggs traded to the grocery store owner. It was my job to provide the care of the flock.
> I know and understand how it once was but I still like to eat and can also understand others feel the same. We just can't depend on the owner of a home flock to deliver the needed products to us.


I don't believe that for a second. So no one could come up with a system where an egg wholesaler has places that buy eggs from small producers? There are places around here called produce auctions. The way it works is someone like me who has a load of pumpkins goes up to the produce auction where there are buyers from different companies who buy the produce to can or sell raw. Last year the going rate for pumpkins was 7 cents a piece. I am 100 percent sure one could do the exact same thing for eggs and meat. If there was a decent price paid for food where people could actually make a living without having hundreds of acres of land the problem of not having enough small producers would take care of it's self.

There are grocery stores in my area that will buy produce directly from small farmers. My friend groing up used to pick Rubarb growing wild and sell it to one of the local grocers in town. This was 12 years ago. My point is the idea that somehow only factory farms can supply this nation's food is a total and complete fallicy. Over reliance on factory farming is a bad thing since factory farming is very energy intensive. Once cheap energy is gone we'll have a choice, support small local agriculture or starve


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2010)

PhilJohnson said:


> I don't believe that for a second. So no one could come up with a system where an egg wholesaler has places that buy eggs from small producers? There are places around here called produce auctions. The way it works is someone like me who has a load of pumpkins goes up to the produce auction where there are buyers from different companies who buy the produce to can or sell raw. Last year the going rate for pumpkins was 7 cents a piece. I am 100 percent sure one could do the exact same thing for eggs and meat. If there was a decent price paid for food where people could actually make a living without having hundreds of acres of land the problem of not having enough small producers would take care of it's self.
> 
> There are grocery stores in my area that will buy produce directly from small farmers. My friend groing up used to pick Rubarb growing wild and sell it to one of the local grocers in town. This was 12 years ago. My point is the idea that somehow only factory farms can supply this nation's food is a total and complete fallicy. Over reliance on factory farming is a bad thing since factory farming is very energy intensive. Once cheap energy is gone we'll have a choice, support small local agriculture or starve


I can see some problems with that.

Small producers pay high prices for feed. Since wholesalers would be paying a low price, how would it be profitable? It costs more for a small producer to produce a dozen eggs than they can buy a dozen in the grocery store.

To compound the problem, before eggs can be packed for the grocery store, they have to be candled, sorted, washed, and sprayed with mineral oil to seal them.

This would mean an even lower price paid to the producer, because the buyer would know many eggs would have to be discarded or liquified (liquified eggs are sold very cheaply to commercial bakeries).

Since the buyer would be discarding and liquifying many eggs, AND would still have to put a considerable effort into processing the remainder, not to mention other additional costs (like extra transportation costs), the price they'd have to pay to the producer would be so low that very few would be able to produce profitably.

The reason egg farms are able to produce so cheaply, is such things as cheap feed (much of it comes from contracts with China and South America), and all-in-one computerized facilities.

The hens are fed and watered by computerized machines. The eggs roll on to conveyor belts, where they go directly to the processing unit on the end of the building.

In order to process eggs from an outside source, things would have to be set up differently, and there would be more labor and expenses involved.

Now, if someone could actually set up a working system in which this could be done in such a way that the producer and the wholesaler could both make a reasonable profit, I'm ALL for it.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

PhilJohnson said:


> I don't believe that for a second. So no one could come up with a system where an egg wholesaler has places that buy eggs from small producers? There are places around here called produce auctions. The way it works is someone like me who has a load of pumpkins goes up to the produce auction where there are buyers from different companies who buy the produce to can or sell raw. Last year the going rate for pumpkins was 7 cents a piece. I am 100 percent sure one could do the exact same thing for eggs and meat. If there was a decent price paid for food where people could actually make a living without having hundreds of acres of land the problem of not having enough small producers would take care of it's self.
> 
> There are grocery stores in my area that will buy produce directly from small farmers. My friend groing up used to pick Rubarb growing wild and sell it to one of the local grocers in town. This was 12 years ago. My point is the idea that somehow only factory farms can supply this nation's food is a total and complete fallicy. Over reliance on factory farming is a bad thing since factory farming is very energy intensive. Once cheap energy is gone we'll have a choice, support small local agriculture or starve


There wouldn't be any difference in produce auctions and factory farms. Instead of factory farms the present owners would just set the prices to what they wanted and mark up a good profit. The small farmers would have to sell at the price they were offered. If not they would loose their crop. Big business would win again.

I lived in Oklahoma many years ago when we and other the farmers tried the same thing you are suggesting. They tried raising different livestock and different animals and selling at produce auctions. They lost their shirts. They then tried growing for wholesale buyers. Same thing, they lost their shirts. They had no other choice than selling at the price the wholesalers offered. Some tried taking their produce back home but there isn't much you can do with 2000 rabbits or 15 tons of cucumbers.

If there was a decent priced paid for food the factory farms would just get bigger and richer. A small farmer cannot produce the same product as a factory farm at the same price. People are going to pay the least amount they can for the same product.

If we get rid of factory farms we will not have to worry about being overweight. Our worry will be more in the line of starvation.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

I would say the easiest way to level the playing field is get rid of agricultural subsidies for large prodcuers and tax their profits at a much higher rate. We can all admit that large scale farms are more efficient but that doesn't mean they are better for the future of the US and Mexico. Disasters such as the Gulf Coast spill happen because we ran out of easy oil. Large scale farming encourages drilling in environmentally unstable regions. What would you rather have, a clean enviroment for future generations or a dozen eggs that cost a buck. The US is one of the fattest nations on Earth coupled with all the food that gets thrown out I'd think anyone with eyes could come to the conclusion that we don't need factory type farming methods to feed us.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

PhilJohnson said:


> I would say the easiest way to level the playing field is get rid of agricultural subsidies for large prodcuers and tax their profits at a much higher rate. We can all admit that large scale farms are more efficient but that doesn't mean they are better for the future of the US and Mexico. Disasters such as the Gulf Coast spill happen because we ran out of easy oil. Large scale farming encourages drilling in environmentally unstable regions. What would you rather have, a clean enviroment for future generations or a dozen eggs that cost a buck. The US is one of the fattest nations on Earth coupled with all the food that gets thrown out I'd think anyone with eyes could come to the conclusion that we don't need factory type farming methods to feed us.


I agree with removing the subsidies. Can't quite agree with the higher taxes to a certain group of people though. Don't seem quite fair to put extra tax on a person just because they make a profit.

Factory farming and large scale farms are not going anywhere. We just have too many people who want to eat. Take a guess how many people live in a large high rise apartment building in every large city. These people have to eat also. They can't raise anything so will have to depend on other to raise and sell to them. Small farmers can barely raise enough to provide for their family.

Look at the population of the U.S. Look at the number of small farms. Just a little math will show you how much each small farm would have to produce to feed everyone. Just isn't possible.

Factory farming is improving every year. They know to stay in business they will have to change their way of operating. They also know with the increase in population they will have to produce even more in the future.
Small farms have been loosing ground for many years. It won't change.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

pancho said:


> I agree with removing the subsidies. Can't quite agree with the higher taxes to a certain group of people though. Don't seem quite fair to put extra tax on a person just because they make a profit.
> 
> Factory farming and large scale farms are not going anywhere. We just have too many people who want to eat. Take a guess how many people live in a large high rise apartment building in every large city. These people have to eat also. They can't raise anything so will have to depend on other to raise and sell to them. Small farmers can barely raise enough to provide for their family.
> 
> ...


If a business can not exist without either illegal labor or foriegn labor they should not be in business period. If labor laws were enforced this may have the same leveling effect as levying a tax. Factory farms come in two flavors, one type relys on heavy mechanization, the other type requires massive amounts of unskilled labor. I'll discuss farms in the second catagory (heavy mechanization is a whole other can of beans). If labor laws were strictly enforced I think it would do one of two things, either food prices would go up to the point were US small scale farmers would be able to make money (since there is less overhead with a small farm) or Mexican farms would step up to the plate and be able to pay their own workers enough money to live on. Or possibly we would see during the summer American produce in stores and during the winter Mexican produce. Insisting on a system of farming that relies on paying folks less than poverty wages is not only morally wrong but damaging to both the US and Mexican economies as a whole.

I would also like to point out while you keep saying that factory farming is the only option to feed people in the US we have the highest rate of obesity in the world, the US supplies many tons of food aid accross the world for nothing, corn based ethanol powers millions of vehicles including my own car, soy bean based plastics are found on new John Deere tractors and soy is used to power those same tractors. Also mentionable was the slaughter of dairy herds last year and the dumping of milk down the drain. A few other interesting tidbits is that the food aid the Unitied States provides to African nations actually does more harm than good. Instead of supplying just enough food for folks in times of extreme need the local agri-economy is flooded with free food which in turn puts local African farmers out of business. And this in turn creates a cycle of continual reliance on foriegn food stuffs which conveniently comes from the US. Since the US goverment purchases food from big factory farms this is a win win for US large farms and lose-lose for small African farmers trying to eak out of living. If anything we produce way too much food for our own good and have to find creative ways to keep demand up (bio fuels/plastics, food aid, food stamps). You would have a point about factory farms being the only way to feed everyone if the US consumed nearly all it's own foodstuffs but that is false.

If you were correct about factory farms being the only way to feed America's hungry it would be absurd to continue to encourage population growth in the face of dwindling resources ranging from petro chemicals to depleted aquifers. If we don't change our system of agriculture now we will face starvation in the future.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Eliminate welfare and unemployment compensation, and just possibly American's will find it tolerable to work at manual labor, for minimum wage. Illegals that I have knowledge of do not work for minimum wage, but start out at 8/hr no englais, 9/hr with English. When the choice is starvation or shoveling cow manure all day long, the option is obvious. Let's do away with 'subsidies' on both sides of the equation.

I don't know about 'other' areas, but around here there is a surplus of jobs, a lack of willing Americans, and a never ending supply of illegals willing to do anything. Some jobs, like those that require a CDL, simply go unfilled. I have seen signing bonus's of several thousand, for folks willing to take a local truck driving job (some workers make over 7K a month).


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