# When to Geld



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

After so many years, I thought I knew the answer to this but I'm being told otherwise so when do you feel is the appropriate age to geld?


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

Usually I liked to do it right at 5 1/2 - 6 months old when they were still with the mare. Once they healed up in a couple of weeks it was time to wean. Still being on the mare kept them from standing around feeling sorry for themselves. LOL

Youngest I ever gelded was 4 months (the brat needed it the day he was born) and oldest was 12 years.


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## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

I wonder if they are anything like dogs, in that it's best to castrate when they are mature in body, 1-2yrs. 
That would mean horses would be castrated at 3-5 years old.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

secuono said:


> I wonder if they are anything like dogs, in that it's best to castrate when they are mature in body, 1-2yrs.
> That would mean horses would be castrated at 3-5 years old.



That is WAYY to long to wait in 99% of the young horses. Plus you get to deal with all that stallion behavior and thinking during that time, very easy to get hurt as well. Horse is going to get an inflated opinion of himself, wanting to try breeding mares because his hormones are driving him, could get easily hurt going over or thru fences to reach any mares in season. 

Much better to get him gelded at a much younger age, prevent issues from developing. He never THINKS about breeding mares in most instances, at young ages, so no retraining of bad habits. For any other breed of horse than those I own now (large) we gelded at about 7 months. For our present breed, we hope to "stunt their growth" by leaving them entire until 12 -13 months, depending on his behavior. The hormones aid in closing their knees sooner, which will limit height he grows, keeps them smaller for our uses. One we gelded at 7 months, grew to 18.1H, much too big, so we had to sell him on which broke our hearts. We were crazy about him. Very close to our idea of perfection in attitude, behavior, easy to work with. This was when we decided to geld at a later age, prevent this problem again. None of the other boys have gotten "too big" again at just 17H. Same dams and sires. 

If there is a possibility of colt being stallion quality, you might wait to see how he grows. Have some other folks evaluate him for you, so you are not barn blind on this issue. But there are very few horses "worthy" of passing on his genes, so you have get a program in place right off, to keep colt civil, cooperative as he matures with hormones. Be ready to change your mind at any point, get the Vet out the next day to cut him if things are not manageable! Don't get hurt over a "pretty horse" with issues. And a good stallion will make a LOVELY gelding.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

I geld at a year. I do very selective breeding to begin with; I like to see if a colt looks like it is going to be an outstanding prospect in conformation, athletic ability, and overall temperament before I even think of keeping him a stallion for future use. So far, I have gelded all of my colts, even the one that would most likely have been a great stallion. He would have been a great stallion, but not an outstanding one, so he got gelded.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

goodhors said:


> That is WAYY to long to wait in 99% of the young horses. Plus you get to deal with all that stallion behavior and thinking during that time, very easy to get hurt as well. Horse is going to get an inflated opinion of himself, wanting to try breeding mares because his hormones are driving him, could get easily hurt going over or thru fences to reach any mares in season.
> 
> Much better to get him gelded at a much younger age, prevent issues from developing. He never THINKS about breeding mares in most instances, at young ages, so no retraining of bad habits. For any other breed of horse than those I own now (large) we gelded at about 7 months. For our present breed, we hope to "stunt their growth" by leaving them entire until 12 -13 months, depending on his behavior. The hormones aid in closing their knees sooner, which will limit height he grows, keeps them smaller for our uses. One we gelded at 7 months, grew to 18.1H, much too big, so we had to sell him on which broke our hearts. We were crazy about him. Very close to our idea of perfection in attitude, behavior, easy to work with. This was when we decided to geld at a later age, prevent this problem again. None of the other boys have gotten "too big" again at just 17H. Same dams and sires.
> 
> If there is a possibility of colt being stallion quality, you might wait to see how he grows. Have some other folks evaluate him for you, so you are not barn blind on this issue. But there are very few horses "worthy" of passing on his genes, so you have get a program in place right off, to keep colt civil, cooperative as he matures with hormones. Be ready to change your mind at any point, get the Vet out the next day to cut him if things are not manageable! Don't get hurt over a "pretty horse" with issues. And a good stallion will make a LOVELY gelding.


goodhors, what do you use your horses for? I have seen you mention height before, just wondering why it is an issue....I have an idea it is dressage or eventing or hunter jumpers or similar, but would like to know for sure


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I geld around 6 months, some a bit earlier some a bit later. 

I agree with Goodhors 3-5 years is way too late for most horses.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I would like to have seen the reason for this topic have been left a bit longer for assessment and a bit more bulk. 

Ultimately, my question stems from gelding without owners consent that that's a who other story that's going to get messy.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

We do Combined Driving as the main horse sport, with use of the horses also in pleasure driving/showing, recreational driving on trails, along with being ridden sometimes. They do what we need that day! Husband drives them as Pairs or Fours, so they need to be close in height though not required to be exactly the same. We figure a range of 5 inches, from small to our 17H biggest, will work pretty well in keeping their gaits matching. Nothing worse than tying two horses together and one can't keep up!! Similar builds, breeding, helps with matching, stride length. The shorter young mare CAN do big strides when trained well, she just has to learn to extend better, instead of canter.

17H is as big a horse as you ever want for CDE, they just don't fit thru the Hazards. Bigger horses have cooling issues in the allotted 10 minute time halt to reduce temps and respiration for the Vet as needed before the last section. The larger animals have the better, bigger gaits needed for the Dressage section, enough strength to pull required weight of vehicle, plus extra weight of Driver and grooms required. Some locations have very steep hills, long distances to cover on the Marathon phase, you need fit, strong animals to be able to finish within the allotted time and no penalties. 

We will be showing at the Metamora CDE next weekend on Friday only. Our horses are not fit enough for the expected heat and humidity usually found at their Marathon because husband broke his leg in April, so horses could not be worked. We can do the Cones and Dressage only on Friday, see how they score after his working steadily since leg was given the OK by Dr. to drive again. We will be working as Volunteers on Sat. and Sun. as the rest of the folks have their fun. Not sure what jobs, but we do get "front row seats" as Volunteers plus a swell lunch with drinks delivered! Metamora takes wonderful care of their Volunteers and is very grateful to have them come out to help. Come watch if you are in the area, free to attend, just bring a chair, shady hat and sunscreen to be comfortable viewing things. There is a lunch stand for food and drinks. Wear good walking shoes, lots of ground to cover to see what is going on.

Here is the location, dates and times;

http://www.americandrivingsociety.org/06_omnilistings/06metamora_15.asp

They also have a Facebook page with some photos;

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Metamora-Carriage-and-Driving-Association/200105860015488

Newspaper coverage from last year;

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/general-news/20110612/carriage-driving-competition-in-metamora


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

goodhors said:


> We do Combined Driving as the main horse sport, with use of the horses also in pleasure driving/showing, recreational driving on trails, along with being ridden sometimes. They do what we need that day! Husband drives them as Pairs or Fours, so they need to be close in height though not required to be exactly the same. We figure a range of 5 inches, from small to our 17H biggest, will work pretty well in keeping their gaits matching. Nothing worse than tying two horses together and one can't keep up!! Similar builds, breeding, helps with matching, stride length. The shorter young mare CAN do big strides when trained well, she just has to learn to extend better, instead of canter.
> 
> 17H is as big a horse as you ever want for CDE, they just don't fit thru the Hazards. Bigger horses have cooling issues in the allotted 10 minute time halt to reduce temps and respiration for the Vet as needed before the last section. The larger animals have the better, bigger gaits needed for the Dressage section, enough strength to pull required weight of vehicle, plus extra weight of Driver and grooms required. Some locations have very steep hills, long distances to cover on the Marathon phase, you need fit, strong animals to be able to finish within the allotted time and no penalties.
> 
> ...


Wow, that is very cool I have never gotten into driving, though I did drive a pony when I was a young girl. I loved it then, but went into the barrel circuit rather than the driving classes. I have thought about it lately, but have so much else I'm doing it probably won't happen.

One of my vets used to have Percheron teams that he and his wife showed and competed with. I have a 4 year old Percheron boy that I just got a couple of months ago that is a rehab type situation. He is such a sweetie, and he would look so grand hitched to a lovely carriage. Thoughts roaming around in my mind again!

Thanks for telling me what you do with your horses. I would love to see some photos of your horses working!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

If one were taking a wait and see approach on an exceptional colt, how long would you hold out before gelding?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Wait and see if he's stallion quality? If so, until he's under saddle and has proven what he can do.


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## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

Unless you are going to be breeding or have another issue like Goohors, I did it around 6 months. It helps prevent having to contend with undesirable behaviors.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> Wait and see if he's stallion quality? If so, until he's under saddle and has proven what he can do.



It's a bit of a sore subject right now but he was exceptional and the owner was objective and prepared to assess critically.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

wr said:


> It's a bit of a sore subject right now but he was exceptional and the owner was objective and prepared to assess critically.


I wait until they are 2 (not my own colts, but if I am training someone else's and they are opposed to gelding younger), then work them on the ground to see what I am looking at. I can tell at 2 what I have or don't have as a stallion prospect as far as performance. At a year though, I always have a pretty good idea and have never taken a colt to age 2 without gelding him.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

At a year. Give him a birthday present!  

With some colts, they will push the limit from day 1. Never ever let them get mouthy or pushy, but the early spring of their first year is a good time because of flies, and they usually are up to a little work to keep things open after the surgery...pony or longe. Sometimes there's good reasoning behind those old traditions.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Alder said:


> At a year. Give him a birthday present!
> 
> With some colts, they will push the limit from day 1. Never ever let them get mouthy or pushy, but the early spring of their first year is a good time because of flies, and they usually are up to a little work to keep things open after the surgery...pony or longe. Sometimes there's good reasoning behind those old traditions.


That would be great but this is a case where he was beyond physically exceptional, his bloodlines were unique and he was sold intact and the buyer is now waivering. 

There is little that can be done about it now but it's sure causing an event in the neighborhood right now. To add insult to injury, the test pilot has a bill sitting at a vet clinic we don't use and obviously, failing to pay for a service he didn't request will have a negative effect on his credit rating and it looks like he's going to have to return the deposit on the little guy. 

The old rancher is in his 80's and this is one of less than a handful that he suggested waiting to cut until and was of the opinion should not be sold until he was at least started. 

I'm grumpy because I feel responsible because I'm pushing my luck halter breaking one and if we had known the other trainer would have made decisions like this, they both would have come here and I would have just taken my time or got a neighbor girl to help me.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

So a trainer took it upon themselves to call a vet and have a horse gelded without the owner's knowledge? Sorry, I'm trying to piece together the little bits and don't know if I have it right. If this was the case the trainer would paying for the castration and loss of value on the horse....BIG TIME!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Teej said:


> So a trainer took it upon themselves to call a vet and have a horse gelded without the owner's knowledge? Sorry, I'm trying to piece together the little bits and don't know if I have it right. If this was the case the trainer would paying for the castration and loss of value on the horse....BIG TIME!


Yes but at the time I started this thread, I was more concerned with finding out if my old school conventional thinking was right or wrong. 

Since my world is primarily ranch horses and we want them stout, we tend to geld a lot closer to 3 than we do a yearling so everything in my background was telling me that this was an epic disaster. 

I was mad enough at the time that it took every bit of restraint to not start a thread asking for creative ways to hide a couple bodies. 

The trainer is a nice young man but his father often involves/meddles in his affairs and the old fart has expressed some interest in this particular colt for a about 3 months so I figure sometime in the next few weeks, he's going to make a lowball offer to buy him for resale and that will not happen, even if he's given to some little girl for a 4H project.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> Yes but at the time I started this thread, I was more concerned with finding out if my old school conventional thinking was right or wrong.
> 
> Since my world is primarily ranch horses and we want them stout, we tend to geld a lot closer to 3 than we do a yearling so everything in my background was telling me that this was an epic disaster.
> 
> ...


When you asked the trainer about it what was his rationalization for the gelding? Payment for the gelding is the trainer's responsibility, plus you're due compensation like Teej said. 

What a horrible situation. Did the trainer misrepresent who owned the horse to the Vet? I can't imagine a Vet gelding a horse without talking to the owner.

Not saying I have real word experience in the body thing but I may be able to help.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

I don't think gelding early has much to do with stoutness but it's really beside the point in your case. Here's some pics of my early gelded horses that will maybe put your mind at ease in that area.

This is the one that was gelded at 4 months. Ignore the fact that he's standing with his front feet together, it's not a normal thing for him.









The rest of these were in the 5 1/2 - 6 month range and they were also only 2 when these were taken.

















The bay roan








This one was gelded young but he's around 4 in this picture.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

There will be no compensation from the trainer, who is a good guy and a really good trainer, who actually went to school with my daughter. 

The complexities behind the problem is that his father is one of those guys that is always looking for a deal and a scam and he's been incredibly interested in this guy since he became my ex's hired ma, who is also a BS'er and likes to run the odd scam too. 

The trainer is beside himself but he wasn't even at home the day the deed was done and it seems the two scammers came up with this plan because the ex has a 'very expensive' stud at the same trainer and Tweedle Dee and Dumb got worried that the coming yearling was going to be beat up the big boy, even though they're in separate pens. 

The really tacky part of this is that there is a vet that was willing to put the bill in the text pilot's name without even consulting with him. 

There seems to be a bit of a falling out between the Tweedle Twins so Dee figures that the kid is stupid enough to send him cash (which will likely go to Big Boy's training bill which coffee shop gossip indicates is outstanding but that's something they're going to have to deal with on their own because the money was transferred into my account and I will pay the bill and have a little chat with the vet at the same time. 

Sooner than later, somebody will disclose the big plan, which is likely a 'gal that will take him off your hands' for a couple hundred dollars and that's when they're going to find out that things aren't going their way. 

The test pilot's girlfriend is a competitive barrel racer and her sister is an elite barrel racer and the little guy is going to live with in her, right beside sister's current horse, her current $35,000.00 prospect. The test pilot is gone a lot for work so if the two dummy's want to negotiate their next phase, they have to negotiate with the two girls, who are way tougher negotiators than he is anyhow. 

The world won't end because he's been cut and once I found out it was done by a vet and not by two of the dumbest people on the planet, I cooled down a fair bit.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Wow, I just can't say how wrong this all appears to me. Someone gelding MY COLT without permission, then trying to bill me, would probably get damaged. "Lost earning potential" is always good for a lawsuit, if horse was actually good enough to be worth big money at stud. 

However the fact that they had him gelded, without permission, approval, is just awful. If you have a contract with the Trainer, his father interfering could make him some kind of perpetrator! And of course they did it while Trainer was not there, so "suspicious behavior" in any case. 

You still might make money as handsome geldings, well bred, do fetch quite a lot with a bit of showing and wins. Working geldings for Rodeo, roping, barrels also bring a lot if marketed properly. 

Just can't get my head around this situation!! Beyond bizarre.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Both young men have the misfortune of not being able to pick their relatives and suing either Tweedle Dee or Dumb isn't worth the effort because neither really has any assets and as soon as Dumb runs out of money, since his big money job has run out, Dee will be unemployed as well and that's about the time they're going to take each other down. 

Anything we do or any noise we make publicly will just tear down a nice young man and a talented trainer, who's worked hard to earn the respect he has, in spite of his father and neither of us are prepared to put him in that position. 

Both are counting on test pilot's normally easy going temperament and they both forgot that I was already on the fight before this little turn of events. I might have a bad ankle but I still have contacts, the two girls have contacts and we'll make sure that the trainer's reputation isn't ruined and test pilot comes out on top. It's just going to take a bit of patience.

Things happen for a reason and sometimes it takes some time and patience for the reason to become apparent.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

My Mustang and my good QH colt were both gelded by the lady who owned the stable where I was boarding...while I was at work one day. I was looking for a horse property to purchase, my colts were 1 year old and 10 months old, respectively. They were pastured with only my own mare, and neither one of them were sexually interested yet because they were still pretty young. They were my two colts I bought out of a slaughter auction several months before that, and both had been I pretty rough shape, one had horrible pneumonia and I had not wanted to put either one under anesthesia yet until I knew they were both healthy enough for it. 

I went to the barn after work, both were in a paddock and both had been cut. I was furious. Moved them as soon after as possible, never paid the vet bill I was handed, never paid board there again either before I moved them. I was so beyond ------ I couldn't see straight, but getting them out of there was the only thing I could do, the deed was done and I couldn't get that back. Neither were going to be kept studs, but I needed to be the one who made that decision, not the barn owner.

Her reason? She bred and raised top end QH halter horses, several were World winners. She didn't want them to be jumped by my mutts (one of which is actually better bred than most of hers, he was registered, and on his way to being an amazing boy). I hadn't even had the chance to decide for myself, and while I would have gelded one of them for certain, the other was young and I hadn't gotten my mind on it yet as to what I would be doing with him.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

aoconnor1 said:


> My Mustang and my good QH colt were both gelded by the lady who owned the stable where I was boarding...while I was at work one day. I was looking for a horse property to purchase, my colts were 1 year old and 10 months old, respectively. They were pastured with only my own mare, and neither one of them were sexually interested yet because they were still pretty young. They were my two colts I bought out of a slaughter auction several months before that, and both had been I pretty rough shape, one had horrible pneumonia and I had not wanted to put either one under anesthesia yet until I knew they were both healthy enough for it.
> 
> I went to the barn after work, both were in a paddock and both had been cut. I was furious. Moved them as soon after as possible, never paid the vet bill I was handed, never paid board there again either before I moved them. I was so beyond ------ I couldn't see straight, but getting them out of there was the only thing I could do, the deed was done and I couldn't get that back. Neither were going to be kept studs, but I needed to be the one who made that decision, not the barn owner.
> 
> Her reason? She bred and raised top end QH halter horses, several were World winners. She didn't want them to be jumped by my mutts (one of which is actually better bred than most of hers, he was registered, and on his way to being an amazing boy). I hadn't even had the chance to decide for myself, and while I would have gelded one of them for certain, the other was young and I hadn't gotten my mind on it yet as to what I would be doing with him.


Yes, that's likely the foundation for my anger as well. The decision was handled by two fat men who have no right to make them. We have chosen to take the high road because I don't feel revenge is going to change anything and that's not how I raised my kids.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

If somebody gelded my colt without my permission or without ME being there, they'd be getting contacted by my lawyer ASAP.

Trainer's fault or not, HE is ultimately responsible for the horses under his care. If he can't corral his old man, he's gonna lose his business sooner or later anyway.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

My colts are generally born when the weather warms up and the snow is gone. In this case, I waited until the colt was about 4 months old and I had the mare ultrasounded at the same visit. The flies are said to keep the colt moving, allowing proper drainage, so a summer gelding is common.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Thanks for your perspective haypoint. I've cooled down a fair bit but it will remain a sore spot for a while yet.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

wr said:


> Thanks for your perspective haypoint. I've cooled down a fair bit but it will remain a sore spot for a while yet.


Probably a sore spot for the horses, too.:yuck:


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

haypoint said:


> Probably a sore spot for the horses, too.:yuck:


It didn't look like too much of a sore spot when I found him, 11 of his pasture mates and the RCMP in the middle of the highway yesterday. 

I will admit that sending the test pilot a text message to Pink Mountain BC wasn't one of my finer moments but after I put his, the trainer's and my ex's horses back in pens, I did get some training on how to train a new iphone in the fine art of profanity.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

wr said:


> After so many years, I thought I knew the answer to this but I'm being told otherwise so when do you feel is the appropriate age to geld?


Back when I had youngsters I gelded at three years. The main herd ran in a five section pasture, the stud and mares lived together year around. I pulled the youngsters out when the mares weaned them and put the colts and fillies in different pastures. I realize this isn't possible for people with backyard operations because of the lack of room. I wanted the geldings to develop a big neck and shoulders and this system worked for me.

I was raising ranch horses. When they were weaned they were caught up and branded. They were haltered and ponied behind a good rope horse every day for a few weeks, and taught to stand tied. I had a round pen built of railroad ties, this pen was horse high and bull strong. I would tie the young horses around the inside of the round pen, far enough apart so they couldn't kick each other. Then let them stand for a few hours each day. I would work with them, brushing them and picking up their feet and cleaning hooves. This would get them used to being handled. After a few weeks of this they were turned out on the desert until they were three. I would run them in every three months for worming, and just look them over. They got their shots once a year.

These horses were born on the desert, and lived there until they were old enough to ride. They knew how to get around in rough country and how to deal with cactus and predators and rattlesnakes. In over twenty years of doing this I lost two horses to mountain lions. I turned out a lot of good horses over the years. And many of them are still out there working in hunting camps, and ranches yet.


Muleskinner2


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