# Is it acceptable for rams to be aggressive?



## blaundee

I have many years of experience raising goats, chickens, cattle, and horses- in these species, it is perfectly normal to consider it unacceptable to keep & breed an individual with a bad temperament, let alone one with an aggressive-to-humans temperament. Only the best are what you breed, and that includes temperament, and you eat the ones with bad temperaments (except horses, but you certainly dont breed them). I have recently gotten into sheep, and the ram we have is mildly aggressive towards adults, and very aggressive towards children (recently sending 2 to the ER from being "ground & pound" with horns). He is my MILs ram, not mine- if he were mine, I would eat him asap. I do NOT put up with bad temperaments even in chickens, let alone something dangerous to children. MIL was extremely upset about the ram attacking the children, especially since they are her grandchildren visiting from another state, but she is reluctant to kill him & get aother because she has been told by several people that ALL rams are human-aggressive, and she is reluctant to get something worse, and thinks she can retrain the ram's aggressiveness out of him- however, if a good tempered, non-aggressive ram were available, she is all for getting rid of this one & getting a better one, she's just afraid we'll end up with the same or worse. If this is true that all rams are generally bad tempered & human aggressive, we will figure out something to deal with this ram, since we know him, but if they are NOT generally aggressive, then we need to get a better ram- MIL is all for it if this is not how normal rams are. So, my question is, Is it normal/acceptable for a ram to be human- aggressive? (I certainly hope not!)


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## bronc

My dorper ram isnt aggressive towards us at all. If he was, he'd pay for it.


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## farmmaid

MOST rams, after about a year old, are aggresive.


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## blaundee

This ram is about 2-1/2 yo, and is getting more & more aggressive. He has been worked over multiple times for being aggressive, and I'm honestly ready to kill him & get one that isnt aggressive... but if most ARE, then we could end up with a worse one... hmmm...


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## mawalla

My St. Croix and My Katahdin ram have never charged or butted anyone. They are both at least 4. (I'd have to stop and look it up to be sure! LOL) BUT I never allow children in their pasture and I'm always cognizant of where they are when I'm doing something in their pasture because I don't trust them - just because they are rams. We did have an aggressive ram at one time and got rid of him. He was always looking for a fight with everyone.


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## Oregon Julie

farmmaid said:


> MOST rams, after about a year old, are aggresive.


I strongly disagree with this. I have had various rams over the years. Only one of them was truly aggressive and that was a Dorset. He was fine in the pasture, but he was a dangerous bugger in a corral and he went away fast (we purchased a property and negotiated the small flock of sheep into the deal). We have had two Suffolk rams, one white Dorper, and 5 Dorpers (the black headed variety). None were ever truly aggressive towards us.

The ram we used for a number of years was 8 years old when he went to his new home and he was a bit cranky during the breeding season, but all this meant was that you took a stock stick into the field when you walked through and if he came anywhere near you it was tapped on the ground. He walked away and that was the end of any thought of challenging you.

I am sure that genetics play into disposition, but also the type of handling they get does. They are not pets and I think people make the mistake of being friendly with them when they are young. They then have no respect for humans and treat them as equals instead of being higher in rank in the flock.

Any ram who was not really easily discouraged from trying to challenge or threaten a human would go away and go away FAST at our place. That first Dorset was going to break someone's legs with his attitude and life is too short to risk that. The Suffolk that replaced him was gentle enough that you could easily go out into the field in the middle of breeding season and change the crayon on his marking harness by yourself. He would just stand there and wait while you fiddled around with it. At our place we have a saying "if you aren't nice, you don't live here". There are no excuses and no second chances.


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## dizzy

Maybe I should tell this to the owner of the farm where I have my horses. She has a ram-and he can be quite aggressive. I can't stand the dumb thing and he's in a field I have to go in every day! I don't turn my back on him. I have been head butted by him as have others. One woman he knocked to the ground. If I'm in that field, I make sure I know where he is at all times.


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## bergere

I won't keep an Aggressive Ram. The slightest bit of aggression, they would go to freezer camp.
I want to be able to walk in either the Rams pasture or when the Rams where in with the ewes with no issues.
Always kept an eye on them but in 10 years, the ones I kept, never stepped a mean foot toward me or the family.
Including the main Ram for my flock... even at 12 years old, he was never aggressive.

Life is too short to be taken out by an aggressive Ram.


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## Two Tracks

Oh Geese, I Love my sheep ~ewes that is, not a "ram lover" I've had aggressive rams in the past, but they are on the truck headed to stock yard in short order. I have a good friend who loves her sheep too, but she also loves rams and handles them a lot as youngsters...thinking this is a good thing that they are "halter trained" for prospective buyers.. (gag) anyways, I bought one years ago and it was turning mean by 2nd year, I kept the ram for 2 more years, noticing increasing aggression towards me, by the 4th year, I hated that ram so much, every time I fed him with his breeding group, he would charge me, I couldn't even visit my girls with him around, I was so happy the day he got loaded up and I got a check ~hey, he did lead well thou ~go figure. I've talked with other shepherdesses who have bought from my friend and all have had similar situations. I do love her ewe lambs thou, I'll buy them.

I buy new rams as soon as I feel the old ones are getting to aggressive, about age 3. What works for me is at the time the old ram's have bred there last time, I reunite them, they battle it out then become chums again. I then board them till shearing time, directly afterwards I haul them to stock yard. Then all is peaceful and I can go ram lamb shopping that summer (I love bringing in new blood anyways) Plus that year I have more pasture available for ewes. 

I buy them in pairs so they can bunk together, not necessarily from same breeder. I look for breeder that is respectable without flock health issues. Also, I don't want that breeder to coo over the ram lambs, basically give them their health maint. and ignore them (that's what I do with my ram lambs) I look over prospects choosing conformation and wool type and color also I look at temperament.. the ram lamb that comes up to me "being friendly" or rubbing head on me is NOT coming home with me, I look for the ones that want to distance themselves from me, of course not freaking out either. This has worked for me over the years. I have 2 nice yearling rams now that I bought last year as lambs and they successfully bred my ewes last year and are more impressive this year. I'll decide which ewe lambs I'd like to keep out of each ram and from separate ewe lines as well. I'll keep them most likely for 2 more years, that's 4 breedings from when they bred as lambs so time for new blood right!? 

Rams are dangerous and I am very glad those children didn't get hurt worse or you, never trust a ram, never turn your back on them. ~Chris


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## grandma12703

Exactly, never trust a ram or turn your back on them. Some are aggressive and some are not. Some are aggressive at different times before and during breeding season. Some are just playing. Either way it can be dangerous to let your guard down. If you are able to replace him with another that seems less aggressive and it will not hurt your herd in the style and type you want in lambs then do just that. If you have something in particular you love about him and can't find in another then make adjustments in pen set up and handling equipment.


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## purplequeenvt

We currently have almost 20 rams (this is including all the ram lambs from this year). We have a 9 year old, a 5 year old, 5 yearlings, and the rest are lambs. None are aggressive.

Aggressiveness can sometimes seem genetic (we had a Dorper X ram that was a bit aggressive and a lot of his ram lambs were testier than the others), but a lot has to do with how the ram is handled. 

I have a different take on how to handle rams then most people do. We handle our lambs, both rams and ewes, from day one. They get lots of petting and attention, they are halter trained (BTW, halter training can be a life-saver) but most importantly, they are trained to respect people. We NEVER allow anyone to rub their head on us, play butt, or climb on us. 

Ram lambs get testy around 4-6 months or so and that is when you need to stay on top of them. Don't let them get away with any bad behavior.

This is how we've been raising our rams for 13 years and we have never had an aggressive ram (except for the occasional purchased one). Our rams are sweet and gentle. They love getting attention, but are not rude or pushy.

I was the only one who could handle our latest aggressive ram, the Dorper X. Why? Because I taught him that I was in charge. Whenever I was in the pen with him, he was on a halter and walking right beside me. I NEVER hit him (that would have made the situation worse), but he still learned that I was the boss and I could be trusted not to hurt him (his aggression seemed to be fear based). By the time we butchered him, he was almost as gentle as all our other rams.

As for whether to breed an aggressive ram or not, that is up to you. I don't think that it will affect the behavior of his lambs too much, but are you safe. You need to be able to care for all your sheep without worrying about your safety.


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## grandma12703

purplequeenvt said:


> We currently have almost 20 rams (this is including all the ram lambs from this year). We have a 9 year old, a 5 year old, 5 yearlings, and the rest are lambs. None are aggressive.
> 
> Aggressiveness can sometimes seem genetic (we had a Dorper X ram that was a bit aggressive and a lot of his ram lambs were testier than the others), but a lot has to do with how the ram is handled.
> 
> I have a different take on how to handle rams then most people do. We handle our lambs, both rams and ewes, from day one. They get lots of petting and attention, they are halter trained (BTW, halter training can be a life-saver) but most importantly, they are trained to respect people. We NEVER allow anyone to rub their head on us, play butt, or climb on us.
> 
> Ram lambs get testy around 4-6 months or so and that is when you need to stay on top of them. Don't let them get away with any bad behavior.
> 
> This is how we've been raising our rams for 13 years and we have never had an aggressive ram (except for the occasional purchased one). Our rams are sweet and gentle. They love getting attention, but are not rude or pushy.
> 
> I was the only one who could handle our latest aggressive ram, the Dorper X. Why? Because I taught him that I was in charge. Whenever I was in the pen with him, he was on a halter and walking right beside me. I NEVER hit him (that would have made the situation worse), but he still learned that I was the boss and I could be trusted not to hurt him (his aggression seemed to be fear based). By the time we butchered him, he was almost as gentle as all our other rams.
> 
> As for whether to breed an aggressive ram or not, that is up to you. I don't think that it will affect the behavior of his lambs too much, but are you safe. You need to be able to care for all your sheep without worrying about your safety.


Absolutely agree with halter training. We also have all of ours halter trained and when we have a questionable ram we usually halter him and tie him up as we work around the others.


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## Two Tracks

I honestly don't have the time to "halter train" every lamb... Thou all mine are and that basically stems from putting a halter on them and "working" with them in whatever I have to do weather it's giving shots and wormer, trimming hooves, tying off a first time mom starting to reject lambs or tying off ewes while I milk them. I don't have a stand so I tie off to corner wall, even thou these thing's may appear to be a "negative" in the sheep's eyes, all my sheep come follow willingly (because they know me and I give them plenty attention in cooing over them ) The rams, I get them confined to their shelter and just plain grab them and put the halter on to "work" with them, if I'm moving them to ewes, I'll halter them and guide them along fence, pretty soon they catch on and move along towards ewes. No actual "halter training" My friend I mentioned spends hours teaching each lamb. Like I said my ewes come willingly on the halter from mere exposure to me "doing my job with them"

Hope I don't sound like I don't care for rams, I admire their stature and like the one's that court the ewes. I don't make pets out of them like I do the ewes. My motto is that it depends on the animals temperament as to how long they stay, all are treated well and respected so it's an individual's personality that determines the peace. I've ridded ewes whose only fault was an untrusting nature, no matter how well I treated them, at repeated intervals would freak out at my being amongst the flock, so it sends false message to others to freak as well. Nope, she'll be on the trailer next time. I'm not going to walk on egg shells to not upset one ridiculous ewe.

As far as halter training I believe in using the halter IS halter training and is a very useful tool. I recommend ridding of your ram ASAP, especially since he has hurt 2 children, he'll do it again and you all might not be so lucky next time. ~Chris
P.S. Sorry for all my ramblings


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## grandma12703

Halter "training" may have been used too liberally.


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## grandma12703

I went back and read the OP post. First and foremost IMO Children should never be put in a pen with ANY stallion, boar, billy, ram, or bull (sometimes even a rooster) especially if there is not a capable adult close to stop a bad situation from getting worse.

BTW even a non-aggressive male species can get aggressive at any time due to many things beyond our control. So unless you are a sheep whisperer or can read their minds it is definitely not a good idea.


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## mariaricarto

There are non aggressive rams. Get rid of your ram before he kills someone. You will breathe a sigh of relief when he is gone.

Walking/working around your animals should be a joy.


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## hastyreply

I like working my sheep with dogs. I have a friend whose breed of choice to train are Bouvier de Flanders. Big black dogs. He's broke many rams and other sheep from being aggressive by using his dogs. 

I wouldn't keep a sheep that hurt a child. I wouldn't let children in with him either.


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## jwal10

blaundee said:


> I have many years of experience raising goats, chickens, cattle, and horses- in these species, it is perfectly normal to consider it unacceptable to keep & breed an individual with a bad temperament, let alone one with an aggressive-to-humans temperament. Only the best are what you breed, and that includes temperament, and you eat the ones with bad temperaments (except horses, but you certainly dont breed them). I have recently gotten into sheep, and the ram we have is mildly aggressive towards adults, and very aggressive towards children (recently sending 2 to the ER from being "ground & pound" with horns). He is my MILs ram, not mine- if he were mine, I would eat him asap. I do NOT put up with bad temperaments even in chickens, let alone something dangerous to children. MIL was extremely upset about the ram attacking the children, especially since they are her grandchildren visiting from another state, but she is reluctant to kill him & get aother because she has been told by several people that ALL rams are human-aggressive, and she is reluctant to get something worse, and thinks she can retrain the ram's aggressiveness out of him- however, if a good tempered, non-aggressive ram were available, she is all for getting rid of this one & getting a better one, she's just afraid we'll end up with the same or worse. If this is true that all rams are generally bad tempered & human aggressive, we will figure out something to deal with this ram, since we know him, but if they are NOT generally aggressive, then we need to get a better ram- MIL is all for it if this is not how normal rams are. So, my question is, Is it normal/acceptable for a ram to be human- aggressive? (I certainly hope not!)


Was this ram "abused" (taunted) by kids? Was/is he in with the ewes at the time? I have never seen a ram retrained, messing with him will make him more aggressive. I have had rams be aggressive during breeding time. It would have to be a dream ram to keep him. I would not keep ram lambs from him. You say he has horns, I think horned sheep are more aggressive than non horned sheep. They seem to want to use them. I always carry a "cane" when the rams are in with the ewes, just in case. If a ram still "attacks" when you use a cane to block, he is gone. Hitting him will make it worse but I have had to....James


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## Two Tracks

grandma12703 said:


> Halter "training" may have been used too liberally.


Yes, I know I tend to talk too much or type too much in this case hee hee ~Chris


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## blaundee

As for the kids- they were unsupervised, MIL believed they were in the house until it happened. I do not allow anyone under the age of 18 to be alone with ANY horse, let alone a stallion- that would just be stupid. I am a very competent horse trainer & riding instructor, have broke, ridden, & handled stallions many years, and have never allowed any customer or visitor to be alone with any of the horses, and especially not a stallion (even though a stallion will not remain intact if he is one little bit scary- they must be PERFECT in every way to remain a stallion). I have a VERY low tolerance for any sort of aggression towards humans, especially from a male animal, because they are easily replaced and can be dangerous (I do not consider a mother protecting her young to be overly human aggressive, especially a new mom- training and trust go a LONG way to prevent most of that anyway). If a rooster acts aggressive, he gets the beat down, and if he tries it once more, he's dead. The roosters I have now are very gentle & kind & fun to be around. If I'm breeding a mare to an outside stallion, I must first meet that stallion in person to see his personality firsthand- NO nastiness. In goats, I've always taken care to choose bucks with good temperaments. They don't have to be pets, but must have good, kind, calm temperaments. I understand that they can be playful & excited, but mean is different than just feeling his oats... and I believe that this ram we have is mean. Not just feeling his oats, not just disrespectful, I think he's actually mean. I just needed to know if this was something we were going to have to deal with (if all rams are mean), or if it was reasonable to expect a ram to be a good boy... so we will now be looking for one that IS a good boy, and I think we'll be looking at rams over 2yo so we'll know what their temperaments are. This ram has many good qualities, but temperament is #1 with me, and he doesn't have it. Thank you everyone for all of your responses


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## ajaxlucy

That ram sounds horrible! Two kids in the ER? I wouldn't keep him anywhere except the freezer.

There certainly are rams with good temperaments, but even around them I keep my eyes open (or let my dog do the watching). 

Good luck finding a new ram.


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## Bret4207

In close to 20 years of sheep an over 35 of goats we've had exactly 1 mildly aggressive ram. He would stalk my wife. She carried a club around him but never used it. I did lay into him one time when I caught him doing it but he continued on. Why? Got me. He's long gone and was a wool breed, I forget the specifics. Our current hair breeds have been nothing but gentlemen.

I would have a serious talk with MIL about getting a different ram. She could be next.


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## Two Tracks

blaundee, You seem like you are very familiar with animals, hope you find a nicer ram, their out there, I agree with the earlier comment from grandma12703, that you can get a feel for rams temperament around 4-6 month's, those that are too forward in approaching you I would avoid and especially one's that want to rub up on you! look out, they are the ones who have no fear and will try to dominate someday as you have found out, if you can handle stallions...your surely capable in handling rams. ~Chris


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## Lyvia

I'm curious that no one has suggested neutering. Doesn't that make a ram calm down? I am a newbie and honestly don't know. Or is a wether just not worth his keep? Wouldn't a wether taste better anyway?


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## bronc

Lyvia said:


> I'm curious that no one has suggested neutering. Doesn't that make a ram calm down? I am a newbie and honestly don't know. Or is a wether just not worth his keep? Wouldn't a wether taste better anyway?


I'd imagine she is using the ram for things rams are good for.


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## Oregon Julie

Lyvia said:


> I'm curious that no one has suggested neutering. Doesn't that make a ram calm down? I am a newbie and honestly don't know. Or is a wether just not worth his keep? Wouldn't a wether taste better anyway?


It isn't a pet dog, it is a breeding animal and wethering would eliminate that option. Actually even it if we were talking about a pet dog, neutering doesn't normally solve that kind of problem. Training is the answer in most cases. The neutering of an aggressive dog only means that he cannot reproduce himself anymore.


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## blaundee

No point in me having a ram if he isn't a ram!  For me, only horses, dogs, and cats are worth keeping around as neutered males.


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## Lazy J

Lyvia said:


> I'm curious that no one has suggested neutering. Doesn't that make a ram calm down? I am a newbie and honestly don't know. Or is a wether just not worth his keep? Wouldn't a wether taste better anyway?


A ram is kept to breed the ewes to generate lambs. Other than that he has no purpose on a farm, if he doesn't breed or is aggressive he needs to be converted to Lamb/Mutton Burger, either by you or someone else.


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## trainv

All my rams wear a bell so I know where they are at anytime I am near them. I always have the dog between them and me and I carry a crook with me. Even the tamest ones should never be trusted!!!!


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## Bret4207

trainv said:


> All my rams wear a bell so I know where they are at anytime I am near them. I always have the dog between them and me and I carry a crook with me. Even the tamest ones should never be trusted!!!!



Hmmmm, I wonder if it's body language or what that has some people having issues and others none. Our local extension "sheep lady" got mashed up good by rams several times, but no one else had issues with them. (Personally I can't stand the woman and figure the rams felt the same, but that's not likely the reason!:happy I've never had a ram really challenge me, much less a buck, but people keep telling me about dangerous animals. There might be something the animals sense that we don't notice. I've seen bulls that one guy can handle that anyone else would be dead meat with, so maybe there's some perception the animal gets that we don't.

Ha! Now watch me get nailed today by one of my rams! That'll probably happen with my luck! HAR!


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## ErikaMay

Rams do tend to challenge women more. Go figure. Supposedly they smell the female hormones and...well, they don't want to be below what should be below them in their natural social order. 

I do think body language is part of it. also size of flock. A small flock and the ram will be more protective since each ewe is more important.


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## Pony

Social order, hormones, or just plain orneriness, if an animal is human-aggressive around here, s/he quickly becomes human food.

For me, it's not only the "danger" factor in the equation (though that is first and foremost!) There's no sense in keeping unpleasant animals around. My farm is a place of retreat from the ravages of the world. I may have to put up with unpleasant people at work, but not at home.


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## blaundee

Well, most of our communication wit each other & animals IS body language, but if it was the explaination for aggressive behavior, our ram would NEVER even look crossways at me. I believe the full explanation of aggressive rams is breeding- people in general do not select for a good disposition in rams because they are small & edible, which just spreads the bad temperament genes around. Temperament is extremely inheiritable ("nature"), IMO it can not be changed by by handling/training, it can only be enhanced one way or another ("nuture"). I know this to be true in goats, horses, dogs, cats, deer, cattle, and even poultry, so why not sheep too? If people were more selective in breeding their sheep, we would no longer have aggressive rams. But there are SEVERAL things the sheep industry as a whole could change for the better through selective breeding, it just seems that only a few are interested in changing things. If that would change, sheep would be much more profitable.


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## blaundee

*with* not wit


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## blaundee

BTW the "hormone" thing is a buch of crap. If it were true, men would never be safe being near male animals because of the hormones in their sweat that indicate a willingness to fight. Also, male animals in general are not looking to fight female animals, they are looking to BREED them. I've only ever had a turkey try to breed me, and those brainless things would try to breed a piece of firewood, or my husband's foot, or a rock. I get annoyed with people thinking that only women have hormones- what do you think makes a man a MAN?! RFLOL


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## ErikaMay

blaundee said:


> BTW the "hormone" thing is a buch of crap. If it were true, men would never be safe being near male animals because of the hormones in their sweat that indicate a willingness to fight.


 good point! consider myself corrected....though I have heard from many other people that rams tend to challenge females more often. for another reason, maybe? Like some of us ladies *cough cough* approach the animals too gently and not with the demeanor of a leader?


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## bergere

If any animal challenges me,it has an attitude adjustment or its in the freezer. 
I have seen more woman, properly handle stock than men. 
Do not tolerate bad manners from any of my animals.


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## Night_stalker

bronc said:


> I'd imagine she is using the ram for things rams are good for.


You mean besides as Thanksgiving dinner?

Seriously, if the ram is aggressive, and you can't break him of it, congrats, you now have yourself some new sheep chops along with a nice set of horns, odds are.


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## bcnewe2

I work my sheep regularly with border Collies. They are not allowed to harass my sheep but are used to help me care for them. 
I would never put up with a ram that presented a challenge. He would be butchered or moved down the line in short order. 
I would also never allow my grandkids to be in my sheep fields without me, but accidents do happen and it is for that reason alone I would never keep a ram that showed anything but respect for humans. 
My prize dorper ram would just as soon not be out in front of his flock other than to take on the challenges of another ram.
We recently kept a ram lamb to long. They seemed to be fine unless I was out there with a dog. Then they would take to ramming each other all over the place. I had to set the dog on them just to break them apart. They were working on killing each other. But never went after anyone other than each other. I sold the ram lamb asap. We're now back to a quiet flock.
As I type this I can see my month old lambs climbing on the ram who is resting in the shade. He is a keeper!
Please get rid of your ram asap. To much can happen with an animal that attacks humans.
Hope the children are OK.


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