# Feeding horses with a shortage of hay.



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I have bought hay from the same supplier for 10 years. But, it is the end of an erra. He is no longer going to be able to supply me with hay. 

It has been great getting hay from him, because he lives 10mins from here, and I go get a couple of round bales every couple of weeks on a Saturday morning, and be right back.......... 

Everyone else I can find that has hay is about `10 to 15 dollars a bale more, and up to 45 mins/ an hour away! At least until I find something a lot closer than that, I have to find some "hay stretching" ideas so I can price them out by comparison. 

I have read about hay cubes, beet pulp, alfalfa pellets ect, but I would have NO idea how to feed a horse based on these feeds. ........ 

I have two saddle horses, and two miniature horses........... can anyone help me navigate this new waters? What amounts would one feed?? I don't know if this is even feasible.......


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

There are "complete feeds" by most of the big producers, Blue Seal's is called Trotter. This is the blurb from the product page:

TrotterÂ® is a complete, pelleted feed designed for horses with limited access to hay or pasture. Trotter is an ideal feed for stabled horses and horses being transported to hunts or trail events where sufficient hay or pasture may be limited. Trotter may also be used to supplement high-grain feeds with additional fiber to promote good digestive flow and function while maintaining proper mineral and vitamin nutrition.

I don't recommend no hay at all. I'd feed a complete feed, a pelleted hay- Blue Seal's is called Hay Stretcher (http://blueseal.com/product/?id=143), and some hay to keep the gut active. Be very careful feeding any type of compete feed to a mini.


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

I have a friend that just put down an old mini. And she was on a complete feed for years. She wasn't even sure how old she was, but thinks she was about 35 or 40.

It is feasible. There's normally feeding instructions on the feed. W/out knowing what you're feeding now, or what you're looking to feed, it's hard to say. There's beet pulp, hay stretches, hay cubes, hay pellets and chopped hay that you can feed.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I currently have never weighted their hay, but I fill there mangers with just grass hay twice a day, and feed them about 3 pounds of 13% sweet feed a day as well. The mare is 5 the gelding 8. I would call both of them "lightly Worked". 

The miniatures I give the gelding ( 8 years old) a handful of feed twice a day, and the 2 year old filly I give a cup twice a day. Plus hay.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I've fed cubes, pellets and just about anything else I could get my hands on and while it certainly works, it's not as easy as you may think. 

The ration indicated on the bags is based on ideal conditions so in winter, I found I had to feed 10 - 25% more than the recommended ration. If you have more than one horse, it's best to separate to feed or you end up with some pretty chubby horses and a really thin one. 

It's been a while since I actually used them but I think the label suggests twice a day feeding and that doesn't work in winter and they'll lose condition so I ended up feeding 3 - 5 times a day depending on weather. 

It's also worth noting that the winter I had to feed cubes, was also the coldest we'd had in a very long time so I was dealing with -40C and colder for much of the winter. 

It's not an ideal system but can be made to work. I would also suggest adding some beet pulp or calf manna when things get really cold.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Doubt you'll find anything as cheap as hay. Beet pulp is mostly filler. Cubes and sweet feed costly.
Years ago, I went looking to buy a motorcycle. One dealer offered to sell me this model for $1875. But he didn't have any in stock. Another dealer had two in stock, but wanted $2,000. When I complained, "The other place would sell me the same thing for $1875." The salesman asked why don't I buy one from them. When I admitted they were out of stock, he explained that he could sell motorcycles that he didn't have cheaper, too. I guess my point is, that you had a better deal, once, so what you were paying isn't relative now.

Many businesses do that to themselves. They keep their prices low, increasing costs eventually take all the profit out and as soon as there is a machinery replacement requirement or their source for cheap labor dries up, they fold. 

I saw this evolve around me. I was selling hay for less than my cost. So, I quit selling hay. This sent my customers to other farmers. The farmers discovered what a PITA most hay buyers were and raised their prices or refused to supply hay. Now, with the accepted price high enough to be profitable, I'm back to selling hay. Tough business. Good year for hay and everyone has hay to sell, bad year and everyone wants to buy. 

There are a few auctions within 200 miles that sell hay. Seems like a fair way to sell and buy hay.

If you can cut back on the grain and maintain condition, try that as a way to save money. Be sure to worm Ivermec Gold, to avoid feeding worms.


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## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

Cubes, grains and pellets are all more expensive than the hay. 

Ask your hay guy who his other buyers were and if they know of any other hay sellers.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

haypoint said:


> Doubt you'll find anything as cheap as hay. Beet pulp is mostly filler. Cubes and sweet feed costly.
> Years ago, I went looking to buy a motorcycle. One dealer offered to sell me this model for $1875. But he didn't have any in stock. Another dealer had two in stock, but wanted $2,000. When I complained, "The other place would sell me the same thing for $1875." The salesman asked why don't I buy one from them. When I admitted they were out of stock, he explained that he could sell motorcycles that he didn't have cheaper, too. I guess my point is, that you had a better deal, once, so what you were paying isn't relative now.
> 
> Many businesses do that to themselves. They keep their prices low, increasing costs eventually take all the profit out and as soon as there is a machinery replacement requirement or their source for cheap labor dries up, they fold.
> ...


In my opinion, hay is he best option for horses but we're having some pretty severe drought conditions up here and while I don't know the circumstances down east, I do know that it's tough enough in my part of the country that hay will simply not be available to meet the demand and folks are going to have to get pretty creative. 

First cut was pretty scary (one neighbor pulled 3 bales off 40 acres of dryland) and right now, hay sitting in the field is worth $300.00/ton and anybody that can get their hands on hay isn't arguing price or quality.

Most of the second cut in the southern part of the province has been destroyed by hail so I'm being told that it's not unreasonable to assume that there is going to be 50% less locally grown hay than usual. Most of the hay that is available will honoring contracts to feedlots and under contract clients so the one or two horse guys are going to have some serious problems in my part of the world.

When folks realized that crops were failing, they should have baled greenfeed or put up silage which would have satisfied the beef producers but it's my understanding that can't be done of one wants to collect crop insurance.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> In my opinion, hay is he best option for horses but we're having some pretty severe drought conditions up here and while I don't know the circumstances down east, I do know that it's tough enough in my part of the country that hay will simply not be available to meet the demand and folks are going to have to get pretty creative.
> 
> First cut was pretty scary (one neighbor pulled 3 bales off 40 acres of dryland) and right now, hay sitting in the field is worth $300.00/ton and anybody that can get their hands on hay isn't arguing price or quality.
> 
> ...


NY isn't as bad off but it isn't great hay and there isn't a lot of it. We had too much rain early and it was too wet to hay, there was a brief period where everyone cut and baled everything in sight, and now it's too dry. I had had hopes of getting at 75-100 bales of a high quality second cutting for the TB mare but that doesn't look likely now. 

I agree that it's way more expensive and time consuming to feed anything other than hay. In some cases I've had to double the feeding recommendations on the bag and split it into four feedings.

I just thought of something else, be very careful about feeding a lot of beet pulp, the calcium phosphorus ration has to be correct or you'll have problems.

http://equinenutritionnerd.com/2014/02/16/calcium-phosphorus-ratio-2/


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

Here in the States, any senior horse feed is formulated to be used as a complete feed. Anything like that (pellets, cubes or beet pulp) I prefer to soak first into a mash. Once you have experienced an episode of "choke" you won't want to repeat it. Beet pulp is actually a fairly good substitute for hay - a lot of people use it. Take some time to read up on it on the web. It is still not as cheap as hay though. 

Personally, I'd talk to some of my neighbors and maybe some of your farmer's old customers. It is often feasible to go in with a few close-by folks and have a big load hauled in from out of the area and several people split the costs of the hay and the trucking.

The hay crop isn't bad all over. Here (I'm about 150 miles south of the Alberta border) my fields are growing their third crop and should be OK to cut in a couple of weeks. We've had "just" enough rain to make alfalfa this year. Anyway, I'm betting you can find hay if you widen your circle of search and share shipping costs.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Alder said:


> Here in the States, any senior horse feed is formulated to be used as a complete feed. Anything like that (pellets, cubes or beet pulp) I prefer to soak first into a mash. Once you have experienced an episode of "choke" you won't want to repeat it. Beet pulp is actually a fairly good substitute for hay - a lot of people use it. Take some time to read up on it on the web. It is still not as cheap as hay though.
> 
> Personally, I'd talk to some of my neighbors and maybe some of your farmer's old customers. It is often feasible to go in with a few close-by folks and have a big load hauled in from out of the area and several people split the costs of the hay and the trucking.
> 
> The hay crop isn't bad all over. Here (I'm about 150 miles south of the Alberta border) my fields are growing their third crop and should be OK to cut in a couple of weeks. We've had "just" enough rain to make alfalfa this year. Anyway, I'm betting you can find hay if you widen your circle of search and share shipping costs.


Many have ordered from US suppliers but trucking is pretty expensive and owning a trucking company, I can understand why. Somebody has to pay for the permits, insurance, diesel, brokerage fees, exchange on the dollar, border inspections and associated maintenance so what starts as decent priced hay becomes a big deal fast and having been burned by the odd crappy client, I can fully understand why those guys won't ship unless the full load is paid for before departing. 

The big operations are buying it because they can justify the $350+/bale but the guy that owns a couple horses or a few cows often just doesn't have the cash for a full load of hay. 

The last time this happened, I orchestrated a co-op of buyer so we could pool resources and buy full loads but not many seem to even consider that a rational idea. 

I had 3 guys call tonight to see what we'd charge to bring some last year hay down from the north and while we'd rather not haul hay, our rates are significantly cheaper than anyone else and all 3 seemed to think they can find someone who'll drive 12 hours each way with a full load of hay for about $500. One even suggested we should haul hay pro bono because 'farmers feed the county.' I'd certain consider reduced rates as a back haul if it was a regular client or someone I thought would be a regular client but I can't absorb an $1,000 fuel bill for someone who's going to forget our name.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

I am not seeing a hay shortage YET. I am seeing a "I don't want to pay the cost of hay, and I am not going to take the time to go get hay right now" situation. 

Buying feed, cubes, pellets, are ALL going to cost you plenty more to feed than hay. You won't get the time span from a bag of whatever, in feeding that you do with feeding hay. There will be a sharp learning curve in feeding these more expensive foods to the horses, in getting the right proportions to the animal. They get hungry sooner, when fed bagged products.

Hay is cheaper for the amount you need to feed, fills the animal up better, lasts longer, without the added extras (usually unneeded) in grains and complete feed products.

Sorry you have to drive further, use up your free time in getting hay for your equines. But that happens when you have horses. I consider a 45 minute drive one way to be "close by" in fetching affordable hay. Then you have to add in loading truck or trailer, to haul the hay home and unload it.

NOW is the time hay is almost the cheapest, right out of the fields, less handling to make farmer raise his cost prices. I am in Michigan, there is quite a bit of hay for sale now. Costs vary, according to cutting, what kind of hay, so you have choices. Local farmers are putting up hay again, with a few sunny days expected. Just driving the country roads may show you "Hay for sale" signs in yards or by a barn. Stop and ask prices!!

If you can, buy ALL the hay you need NOW, get it home and stored in the barn. Hire someone to help you stack it, so work goes faster. Maybe a non-farming neighbor will let you rent their barn to store extra hay, if your barn is too small. Doing heavy winter weather here, I want my hay HOME and in reach to feed it. No worries about getting the truck to the hay supplier xx miles away, on slippery roads or with a blizzard blowing down on us, with no hay in my barn. Been there, done that before!! Can get VERY ugly fast in our bad winter weather.

Even more reason to get hay NOW if hay production has been poor, supplies will be low. There may be nothing you want to feed your equines, if you wait to buy. Seen that happen too. Then costs to go get anything you find get high, lots of your time is spent driving, plus high costs for that hay. You sure won't be saving much if you have to go to feeding hay cubes for that many horses!

This sounds rather harsh, but you need to "Get up and at 'em!" to be prepared for your winter horse food or you are going to lose out on chances for hay. Be prepared to pay for quality hay. Have some knowledge of what nice hay is costing, know how to pick good hay in your buying trips or ask someone experienced to come along or teach you these things. Are round bales a better value in quantity than square bales that have less waste? My horses eat 99.8% of the square bales fed, very small amount of waste. Round bales I see fed have a LOT of wasted hay even with feeder rings, as animals pull off the outsides to eat the centers. Round bales stored inside have less waste, but anytime animals can have free choice of hay, they will eat the choicest parts, trash a lot of the other parts.

Just looking at the calendar, winter is closer, though days are still long and hot. Maybe closer for you, being further North than I am. We just got the last of our hay in yesterday. 230 bales added to the rest of the small lots we picked up earlier this season. Lots of searching to find hay here and there. Refused several batches of no-nutritional value hay, wet baled hay, even cheaply priced. We have done probably 15 hours of stacking hay onto the truck, driving times, then into the barn, with 3-4 of us working. Hired help to get the work done faster, not kill ourselves, which makes the cost of hay higher in feeding the horses. Sometimes it ate a Saturday, Sunday, weekday evenings, but we HAVE to get the hay in before winter. Putting hay in the barn is THE big job of summer, priority 1 or 2, even with keeping mowed pastures nice for grazing, so horses don't need hay in summer.

Thoughts of needing to go get hay every couple weeks with time on an icy road gives me chills thinking of it. No way I would be doing that if I can get hay another way, have it home or near for a short run in that bad weather.

Think of me as a friend saying this stuff. You NEED to get active on a winter hay supply, then get it home to use. I am sure you don't have extra money to spend on bagged foods. You get so much more hay for the same money, it is not really a choice how to spend it.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

Speaking from the hay farmer end of things, what goodhors says is Solid Gold.

We are looking at harvesting a third crop here coming up real soon, and despite fairly dry conditions, there is a lot of hay around right now in my area. Even if where YOU are, hay is fairly scarce, believe me, in 2-3 months it will be a LOT scarcer. 

Maybe the farmer that quit haying will store some for you? Farmers always want to get things arranged and their own hay stored this time of year. They are looking to get rid of last year's leftovers and any surplus from this season that they want to sell. Now is the time.

That reminds me...have you looked at buying last year's hay? If put up right and properly stored, the nutritional value is still decent for horses - especially with some supplementation. Just another option to consider.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Well, the reality is that my best option might be to sell. As for bringing all the hay here now, I have no place to store it inside. I never built hay storage, because I bought hay every couple of weeks and didn't need a place to keep it. Therefore, now that I may need hay storage, I don't have it. 

Even if I haul 45 mins away, I can still only put 2 bales on my truck, and it is only 3 wheel drive so I won't be hauling a trailer. Why? because my life has been designed around how I have been living the last 15-20 years. Therefore, it will take some time to change that........... I can't do it all at once. When your life changes that abruptly and dramatically, it is hard to adjust over night. 
I grew up on a dairy farm and hayed for a living, but I work construction and summer is daylight to dark............. I am not complaining, just sorting through how I am going to make it work for me.

I hadn't thought of asking the fellow I have been buying for to store hay there, that might be an idea. Apparently he has 20 bales of hay left. I am offering to buy them all at this point... that will buy some time...and I can be prepared differently for next year.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

minister man said:


> Well, the reality is that my best option might be to sell. As for bringing all the hay here now, I have no place to store it inside. I never built hay storage, because I bought hay every couple of weeks and didn't need a place to keep it. Therefore, now that I may need hay storage, I don't have it.
> 
> Even if I haul 45 mins away, I can still only put 2 bales on my truck, and it is only 3 wheel drive so I won't be hauling a trailer. Why? because my life has been designed around how I have been living the last 15-20 years. Therefore, it will take some time to change that........... I can't do it all at once. When your life changes that abruptly and dramatically, it is hard to adjust over night.
> I grew up on a dairy farm and hayed for a living, but I work construction and summer is daylight to dark............. I am not complaining, just sorting through how I am going to make it work for me.
> ...


It depends on what kind of construction you're working in but a lot of times, there are light duty tarps covering various materials delivered that can be had, just for asking and they work fairly well to cover hay. 

Check with your neighbors and see if anybody happens to have some hay they'd like to sell. Primarily look at anyone who's continually bringing in hay like dairy farms or cattle producers that may sell a couple bales out of each load. 

If not, cubes, pellets and tubes will work but it's hard work to find that balance but certainly not impossible.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I FOUND some hay for winter. I asked the guy I was buying from if I could buy what he has left, he said no. I asked if I find hay can I rent some space in his empty mow to store some, and he said No.............. 

But............. I Found a guy that has A LOT of square bales, and he doesn't really live any farther away than the first guy. It is a lot better hay, nice green looking, sweet smelling Timothy. It is 3 $ a bale, but it is so much better hay, I might be able to just feed some oats with it or something, instead of a bag of feed a week......... He would prefer that I haul hay one day a month. I have a "car port" on the end of the barn that I use to keep a tractor in. I am going to close in the sides, and that will give me enough room to store more than a months supply at a time. 

My next move is to find some more pasture so I don't have to feed hay year around. Right now I have about an acre and a half, so I am going to check with some of the farms that have sold their cattle around here to see if I can rent some a couple or three acres of pasture. I don't know what that would cost, so I will weigh that against the price of the hay. I have about another couple of acres that I might clear too to get pasture, but that would be quite expensive.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Excellent. I'm glad it worked out for you.


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

Do you allow your horses the whole field all the time? If you do, is there any way that you can divide it? I have 3 horses on a field that's smaller than yours. One doesn't really eat the grass-he's missing teeth. But, I have my field divided into 3rds. Each week, I open up a new section. I don't do anything w/that section. The section I'm going to close off, I mow w/the mower on the lowest setting. The other section I mow w/the mower on the highest. I also lime the field. And, I keep the field clean. I pick the whole field and their run in 2x a week.

Right now, if I put out hay, the horses basically ignore it. They want the grass. I will put out a small amount towards the time I'm getting ready to move the electric to see if they want it just as a precaution. I was putting out more, but it was going to waste, so I figured, why bother?


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

yes, they are on the whole field all the time........ I need to study up on pasture management. I was thinking of dry docking them part of the time to let it grow back, but I am a little concerned that they would be hard to keep in the fence if they have grass for two weeks and then none for two weeks.,........ Although, like I said summer is my busiest time, and pasture managing might be time consuming too.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

minister man said:


> yes, they are on the whole field all the time........ I need to study up on pasture management. I was thinking of dry docking them part of the time to let it grow back, but I am a little concerned that they would be hard to keep in the fence if they have grass for two weeks and then none for two weeks.,........ Although, like I said summer is my busiest time, and pasture managing might be time consuming too.


Rotational grazing isn't that hard if you have a system in place. You can use electric fencing for your cross fences or something more permanent.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

2 weeks on, 2 weeks off is probably not the best idea. That's a lot of diet adjusting that horses aren't known for being good at. Best would be rotational grazing and if that's not feasible for you then putting them in a dry lot for part of the day would be second best. Something like turning them out before heading off to work in the morning and bringing them in when you get home would help your pastures. You would probably still need to use hay but maybe not as much.


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

MM, if you set it up right, it's not that hard to do. It only takes a few minutes for me to move wires around. I wish I had pics of what this field use to look like. It was basically weeds and dirt w/just a bit of grass. (I board-do self care) Now my field is the best looking on the whole farm. 

I'm going to try to explain my set up. I hope you can visualize this.

My field is L shaped. I have 2 4x4s set that don't get moved. And the area in front of the run in to the waterer and the gate is never blocked off. The longest part of the L is in the front. It runs parallel to the road. The run is at the back of this section. The whole run in is 20x40, but I don't have the whole thing. It has a wall in the middle of it, so there's 2sections that are 10x40. If you're looking at the run in, there's a section that's 10x10 to the right. The farm owner has some rabbits in that. Then I have the next section-it's 10x30. (The field extends past this for about 100 ft.) The front part has 2 doorways in it, then there's a doorway to the side. I've hung gates so that I can divide it into 3-10x10 stalls for feeding. Then I have a smaller section at the back for feed and tack. The field turns at the run in, making the L. The rest of the run in is used by another boarder.

I put one 4x4 about 10 ft off the left corner of the run in. I put the other one in front about 10 ft from the front, but even w/the rabbit stall. I use a regular piece of rope for a visual barrier at the top, then run a strand of electric about a foot down. (It makes it easier for me to get in a roped off section if I need to, and it still stops the horses.) 

When the horses are eating, it's easy enough to move the wires. If I had a rectangular field, I'd have it divided in half w/an area in front of the run in that wouldn't get blocked off. That way, all I'd have to do was to move the wires that I'd be using for a gate. One of the other boarders that doesn't know how to do the electric wants to divide her field in half. I'll be helping her set it up come fall.


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## hihobaron (Oct 5, 2015)

Hello all hay people.
Here are a couple ideas, both from Midwestern experience and California experience.
#1 Beet Pulp is an excellent feed extender and has more nutritional value than people think.
You can fill up to about 65% of a horses roughage requirements with it.
I prefer to wet it and feed as a mash with DE and a complete Pellet or hay cubes mixed in.
It can be fed dry but because I use DE as my primary internal parasite control also I feed it as a mash twice a day. I have hay but still use beet pulp (Shreds) all the time. Wet
At times I when I can not get a round bale into the field I just add a good size scoop of Hay cubes to feed ration and then the horses still have some pasture to pick at. 
One other valuable property of Beet Pulp is the moisture it keeps in the horses gut when at work or in extreme temperature condition. As many horse people know a dry gut in a horse is a prime cause of colic.
I worked with some top Arabian Endurance Racing people and horses while in California.
ALL the Endurance people used wet beat pulp in their feed rations to keep water in the horses gut in competition.
I am talking long range events like 100 miles with vet check points/rest points etc.
Beet Pulp as a hay extender is good stuff and even better as a everyday feed.
Happy Trails
hihobaron


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

hihobaron said:


> Hello all hay people.
> Here are a couple ideas, both from Midwestern experience and California experience.
> #1 Beet Pulp is an excellent feed extender and has more nutritional value than people think.
> You can fill up to about 65% of a horses roughage requirements with it.
> ...


Welcome to HT. Lots of good information. I disagree with your opinion that DE will combat parasites in horses. But many people share your belief. http://www.thescienceforum.com/heal...th-food-grade-really-so-good-dangerous-2.html


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## hihobaron (Oct 5, 2015)

Hello Haypoint
I am new to the system here do not know if this will get to you or be posted in the open for all to see. It is ok with me anyway it gets posted.
RE: DE for internal and external parasite/insect control.
My proof of effectiveness for internal parasite control comes from.
#1 My work with the University of Wisconsin Veterinarian School. 
I worked with the Equine Department in "alternate" internal parasite control.
That was years ago, Used my own herd as test cases, with UW Lab doing all the testing.
Over a period of one year we went from "normal parasite load" to almost Zero.
Fly's around the main barn with a stallion on site in a 20 X 40 foot turn out attached to a stall in barn.were noticeably reduced, no chemical wormers or pesticides used for over a year. 
The Professor AKA PHD in Equine Internal Medicine and I were documenting and ready to publish results of the one year results.
Phifize a major animal medicine/drug company came in and provided UW with a major Multi-Million Grant provided "Certain Research" was not published.
Not just our DE research there were other "Herbal, etc" research projects on the list to be cut and not Publish clause enforced.

Moving on: Beet Pulp
The closest Large animal vet to me here in SC has told me BP has NO feed value. He is dead wrong and he is a younger guy. 
Has horses of his own and is a competitive roper. $$$$$$
He is typical of the poor crop for the most part of large animal vets for recreational horse people. 
Good Horse vets are $$ here and can not be "bothered with back yard horses"

After working and treating many horses under less than ideal condition for 38 years I know what works and what dose not.
Try treating a horse with colic dehydration form working in 100+ dry environment.
Stomach tube BP mash and water into them every 2 hours till they ----.
Problem solved or you have horse meat for dinner for a while. 

I use both modern drugs, herbals, and natural minerals like DE with good results.

I am always open to new ideas as long as there is a base in fact not just "Tradition/Lore"

DE and BP are proven tools for live stock of many kinds.
The Animal Pharisaical Company's do not want the common animal owner know that and most vets Large/Small are just looking at their bottom line$$$$.
They do not want you to treat you own animals because they lose $$$$ then.
Happy trails
hihobaron


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I base my opinion on DE from a clear understanding of how it works on cabbage worms and how that wouldn't work on internal parasites. Plus, I trust the judgment of a close friend that is both an Equine Veterinarian and a Foreign Animal Disease Specialist. DE is mostly silica, main component of sand.

Your experiences will not convince me and I'm sure I would fail at any attempt to change your mind. We both have the opportunity to share our disparate views and can civilly agree to disagree.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> I base my opinion on DE from a clear understanding of how it works on cabbage worms and how that wouldn't work on internal parasites. Plus, I trust the judgment of a close friend that is both an Equine Veterinarian and a Foreign Animal Disease Specialist. DE is mostly silica, main component of sand.
> 
> Your experiences will not convince me and I'm sure I would fail at any attempt to change your mind. We both have the opportunity to share our disparate views and can civilly agree to disagree.


Excellent post. Thank you.


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## hihobaron (Oct 5, 2015)

Hello Hay Point
The animal industry has many different ways to do things.
Some is lore with no base in fact.
I deal with that in the equine industry frequently.
"Well Grandpa did it that way" attitude.
or the other one is "He Said /She Said" and it worked but WHY it worked nobody knows.
I agree to disagree politely.
You are right Silica is sand and silica comes in many forms or can be manufactured into many forms, the computer and in fact our whole communications system is based on silica / metals and electricity.
The fact that the silica in diadems is formed by nature is as far away as sand is from computer chips. It works for the use I have for it.
I also do my own lab work and can see the results.
But to each their own.
Happy Trails
hihobaron :soap:


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

HiHo Baron,
Interesting that we share a strong stance against folk lore and hear say methodology, yet stand opposite on the DE issue. I have seen horses, regularly "treated" with DE, pass a bucket of worms when an effective wormer, like ivermectin, is administered. 
In your last post, you specifically complained about those that follow: "WHY it works nobody knows." Again we share that complaint. 
I wonder if I might ask a question without turning this into a debate? Can you explain how does an abrasive fossil in a horse's stomach eradicate a worm as it eats its way through an organ, like the liver or heart ? Or an even easier question, how can this silica kill worms and bots in a horse's stomach. Since worms travel through the circulatory system, what is DE able to do? Without resorting to hear say or legend? 
Thank you.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Thanks for the updates and information. I have found a source of hay for this year but I will keep this for future reference. What is your opinion on feeding horses oats instead of sweet feed? Sweet feed has tax on it in Canada because it is considered a Luxury, and is more expensive than oats. My grandfather always fed the teams oats.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Oats are good horse feed. But to be sure they are getting all the loose minerals, added loose minerals with selenium is important. Often vitamins are part of a mineral additive, so you might as well add vitamins and minerals. The price of corn varies, as does oats. Sometimes corn is less than oats. If they are around the same price, you might as well add some cracked corn to the oats, if not for a cost savings, then for the variety in diet. It is hard to keep the minerals and vitamins from settling, risk getting too little one day and too much when you get to the bottom of the bag. For not much more, you can get some liquid molasses that will work to keep the mixture mixed and hold down the dust from the cracked corn.
So, yes, oats are a fine feed for horses, but for a few pennies, you can add to it making it better and basically sweet Feed.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

Plain oats are good. I always feed them, or cracked corn. That way I can get a clear picture of what goes into my horse's feed bucket.

Used to be that a lot of sweet feed was mixed up by mills to hide dusty, nasty grain. But I never saw a horse that wouldn't eat clean, plump, well cured oats.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Thanks, The local feed mill sells a "supplement" for horses that has vitimans and minerals in it.. I am not sure what else is in it. It is about 30 $ a bag, but I think a thousand pound horse gets 1/4cup a day on his oats. That is probably the type of thing you are talking about? A local farmer is advertising oats for 10$ a bag, and the 13% horse feed I have been feeding is 18$ plus 13% tax. So the oats are a lot cheaper........ there are no feeding directions on the bag of oats though..>> how many oats would you feed a thousand pound horse that is ridden or driven about 3-6 hours a month?


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