# What's a poor homesteader to do..solar panels ???



## Helena (May 10, 2002)

checked into having a solar panel of some sort to help us with electric. The cost from the Real Goods company was shocking...$13,000 !!!!:help: Perhaps they didn't understand me..but still. Is there something really, really simple and cheap that we could do to perhaps heat hot waterfor all seasons in northern PA or just even a light bulb to have us feel as if we are slowly getting away from the utitlity companies...which I think is almost impossible. Just read in the paper that now that the "ban" on raising the cost of electric will be lifted this year and prices can go higher than even...what is a poor homesteader to do !! There's only so many chickens I can sell !!


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## Windy in Kansas (Jun 16, 2002)

The best defense against rising energy costs is an aggressive offense which you have already started.

Before adding energy you need to make sure you are first conserving all you can for what you purchase now. 

Do you have R-90 insulation in attic or above ceilings? Do you have at least R-40 in the walls and floors? Do your windows leak a lot of cold air or are they weather tight? Do you have storm windows that are in good condition? Savings for heating can be applied to electrical bills or other.

Do you keep electrical energy costs down by opening refrigerator and freezer as little as possible, and if older units defrosted to keep consumption down? Do you have Energy Star rated appliances?

Do you have personal fans blowing on you which allows you to raise the interior temperature of your home in summer months (if you use AC)? It is surprising what will cool a 98.6Âº body.

In the places it makes sense to do so have you installed energy saving lighting devices? Compact fluorescent bulbs instead of incandescent bulbs in some location work well at providing large savings. In some fixtures they are a waste as they don't save enough energy to offset the initial cost. Closets are a good example of where they would be a waste.

Do you study your electric bill to see your kilowatt hour usage per month? Does your bill give the usage from one year ago? Is your current usage lower if you have had similar weather?

Can clothing be worn an extra day so that less annual energy is needed for washing and water heating? Is your water heater set only as warm as needed to provide your needs?

Currently in most situations and locales home electrical generation is simply not as cheap as grid power. 

I do believe that water heating is an ideal way for you to begin. Nothing cheap other than pumping water into a black barrel daily and draining it at night into a pre water heater tank. Home built batch water heaters would cost $200 to $300 or more if all materials are purchased. 

These two books are excellent with plans for homemade units.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...ndbook+of+solar+water+heating+systems&x=0&y=0

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...handbook+of+solar+air+heating+systems&x=0&y=0


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi,
There is a lot you can do for not much money.

We cut our total energy use for heating, electricity, and transport by 60%. The projects we used are listed here:
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Half/Half.htm
In the "Projects we used..." area.
Mostly its pretty simple stuff -- insulation, sealing, efficient lights, window treatments and thermal shades, ... 
Just making sure that our 2 PCs and all their peripherals are completely off when not actually being used was worth 1780 KWH a year saving!

The best 8 projects we did cost $380 to do and save $900 a year in energy costs. If you start with the cheap projects that save a lot, you can finance the more expensive ones with the savings from the first ones:
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Half/DirtCheap.htm

Your list of projects will end up being different than the ones we used, but to me the key is writing down a list of all the energy saving projects you might tackle and then having a look at each one to see how much it costs and what it saves. Things like solar PV (as you found out) will be very expensive, and not offer much of a return, but there will be ones that will do spectacularly well with paybacks that are well inside of 1 year.

Lots of ideas including conservation, solar water and space heating, ... here:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Projects.htm

Gary


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Windy in Kansas said:


> ...
> 
> http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...handbook+of+solar+air+heating+systems&x=0&y=0


Hi Windy,
I really like that Solar Air Heating Systems book as well 

Its available here at a better price:
http://knowledgepublications.com/heat/solar_air_heating_full_product.htm

These internet publishers have picked up some of the older (but very good) solar books that have gone out of print, and are offering them again. Movable Insulation is another good one they are offering.

Gary


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## Windy in Kansas (Jun 16, 2002)

After checking out the air heating one from my local library I purchased my own copy as a reference volume. I then learned of the one for water heating and purchased it as well. I have had them several years. I really think Rodale should reprint them or update and print a new edition. There are some materials that I cannot find at all locally nor even in the Wichita area.

I like the fact that Rodale built and tried the batch water heater, redesigned and tweaked it and gave it a test before printing the plans. Tried and true works for me.

I don't say it often, but thanks for all of the information you provide via your Web site. I keep it bookmarked and handy.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Helena, You can't really blame the 'person' at the other end of the phone line for not trying to 'upgrade' you.
But I consider where you called not one of your better choices.
You can put in a starter "light bulb" system for far less than that. . . . . . . .don't give up on PV.


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## Helena (May 10, 2002)

We have pretty much done what you all have advised us to do in insultating etc. We do heat with wood and have thought many times over to heat our hot water with the wood heat...but we aren't too sure how to do that safely. Now that the winter is coming in I wonder how well a drum would pre-heat the water ?? We do use an outdoor shower during the summer with 2 50 gallon drums on the barn roof that heat "pretty well" for us. Never really hot..but warm and that is during the summer months here in northern PA. I'll look into getting somemore of the books that were mentioned. Wish us all luck this winter !!


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi,
There are a couple schemes for heating water from a wood stove here:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/BioFuel/biofuels.htm#Wood
(down the page a few entries).

Its good to be worried about the safety aspect as with the wrong plumbing arrangement you can have a steam explosion, and they can be very bad.
I think that the main thing is to make sure that you have a temperature-pressure relief valve (as are used with hot water tank installations), and that you don't have any shutoff valves that isolate the coil in the wood stove from the relief valve. Maybe others know more about this?

If you have good sun, a solar water heater can work all winter, although most of them won't provide 100% of your hot water in mid-winter. 
I kind of like the "Maine Solar" one listed in this section:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/WaterHeating/water_heating.htm#Batch
Its inexpensive to build, and I think it would provide some water heating through the winter as long as you can close and open the insulating shutter each day.

Gary


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

this post got me thinking about the wood/oil boiler in my basement. it heats hot water for the radiators that heat the house, but it also has a hot water coil for use with the plumbing system. i find it surprising that smaller units are not made that would be more of a wood stove with a water jacket where one could install such a coil safely. the water jacket could handle the task of safely heating the water in the coil and a safety valve could be run outside. the danger of steam explosion would still be there, but i think such a system would be a bit safer than a coil of copper surrounding a chimney.


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## Mr.Hoppes (Sep 30, 2006)

Lets not foget that DIY projects greatly reduce the costs because , well fraqnkly, the oinstaller is making a living and by todays standards, would charge a $15-$50 per hour chage. So if one can DIY you can save alot of money. Delivery is another area of savings. Go and pick it up from the factor can save big $$ in delivery charges.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

What did Real Goods give you a price on--what kind and size of system? Around here the going price for a "typical" grid connected PV system is $8 to $12 a watt (of total rated wattage of panels). It varies because of size, location, installation complexity, etc. That is an installed price, not just components.


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

If you don't already have one, I'd suggest a "killawatt" meter - a device which helps you determine how much electricity a particular device is using. 

Grid electricity is far cheaper than solar electricity - the key is to use grid electricy wisely and conserve (i.e. reduce).


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## mike3367 (Dec 15, 2004)

http://www.power-savetv.com/solar.html ive been seeing this on tv the 1k watt one intrested me with the 2k or more rebates will cost less than 4k , depends on your state of course, does not seem to be a bad deal


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

"power-save" was discussed not too long ago. http://homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=263249&highlight=power+save


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## mike3367 (Dec 15, 2004)

actually i wouldnt call that a discussion since no one on there had there stuff.


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## Helena (May 10, 2002)

I can't remember exactly what I asked them about but they had an ad about a $99 solar panel. I told them we just wanted "simple" to start with and they came back with the big price tag. I guess I really don't know that much about solar power..even after reading up on it over all these many years..and figuring it would probably take me the rest of my life to pay back my investments...but thought I could at at least try something simple to make me feel as though I am doing something with solar..many just making my tea kettle boil every morning ?? We really don't use much in the tune of utilities on our homestead...living simply..but the cost of everything is getting higher ..propane..electric even with our rural co-op company. I really think that if we were to start life over as a young couple I would for sure..go with some kind of solar/wind power. After 42 years of marriage can you imagine how much we have paid to the utility companies ??


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## Windy in Kansas (Jun 16, 2002)

Just kind of an after thought, but don't forget to factor in tax incentives when figuring bottom line cost.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Stop and think . . . .
Do you really want to deal with the used car salesman that tries to bump you from $99 to $13,000 . . .???????





I thought not......

That kind of slug is doing great harm to the PV industry.


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## RVcook (Mar 29, 2008)

Helena said:


> I can't remember exactly what I asked them about but they had an ad about a $99 solar panel. I told them we just wanted "simple" to start with and they came back with the big price tag. I guess I really don't know that much about solar power..even after reading up on it over all these many years..and figuring it would probably take me the rest of my life to pay back my investments...but thought I could at at least try something simple to make me feel as though I am doing something with solar..many just making my tea kettle boil every morning ?? We really don't use much in the tune of utilities on our homestead...living simply..but the cost of everything is getting higher ..propane..electric even with our rural co-op company. *I really think that if we were to start life over as a young couple I would for sure..go with some kind of solar/wind power. * After 42 years of marriage can you imagine how much we have paid to the utility companies ??


Ahhh yes...we too suffer from _wouldashouldcoulda_ disease . 

Since you don't seem to have all the knowledge necessary to design your own system, companies selling solar equipment will naturally tell you that you MUST have this and that and that... Remember, they're in business to SELL you stuff! However, most people are unaware that there are ways to incrementally move into using solar after some of the basics of installation are covered.

I think the projects on Gary's site are a great place to start. There are TONS of cheap ones that you could easily tackle to get started. Then to supplement, why not start planning for a future system? Planning is really important! And no matter what the retailer says, s system does NOT have to be purchased all at once. And you really will need some time to plan how you intend to use your system. 

We are in a similar situation, but we have 6 120V solar panels stacked in our garage. DH is no electrician, so we need to have our system installed by someone else. We would like to expand the system, and grid-tie (don't want to deal with batteries again) but our current charge controller is not large enough to handle additional panels. AND since our house does not have optimum exposure, we'll have to build an array to handle the panels quite a distance from the house...well, you get the idea. Since our electric bills are relatively low for a home this size, we'll just install the system as money becomes available.

The simple answer to your question is start with small, relatively inexpensive projects like those on Gary's site and go from there. You gotta start somewhere...but you GOTTA start!

RVcook


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