# Will Antifreeze kill Cyotes or foxes?



## renee7

I've been loseing my Chickens, 2 or 3 at a time. until now I only have 4 hens 2 banty's and one rooster. I don't think they can get the Guenias. I have 7. None missing.

Twice I saw the varmit. I ran out with my rifle. But by the time I get there Of course it is gone. once was about 5:30 in the morning. The other was at 10 am. 

So I just now, went out and found where they come thru, and put a pan of antifreeze. No other animals can get to it, Can they climb over the fence?

I didn't have any trouble at all last year. But this year there is corn about 10 ft tall on 2 sides of my Chicken yard. And the coyotes, have no trouble hiding.

I'm more worried naw about my 5 lambs. Tonight I'm going to put the lambs, 2 goats and chickens, in the Chicken house and fasten them up.


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## Blu3duk

It will killthem if they lick enough of it, then it will kill anything that eats on the carcass, fur or feather....

better to set out there with riflein hand ready to shoot from a good perch, high power light for night shooting might help some to, although if youve been seeing it in the am, then it is a creature of habit and will return then as well.

the other thing i would do would be to set a snare instead of poison,that way if you catch anything else t would most likely be a stray dog.

William


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## debitaber

yes it will, it will also kill just about every other animal , that drinks it.


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## Tango

Dear goodness please dont set antifreeze out to kill a predator. It is a cruel way to purposefully kill an animal. It takes days to accomplish death and it has no disrimination in terms of what it kills. It will kill anything. I've had to kill several opossums that have identified my yard as a smorgasbord. I've listened at night with my rifle at the ready and I've targeted the predators responsible for killing my poultry. It was humane and quick, easy, cheap, and efficicient.


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## Terri

Antifreeze causes liver failure, and the animal will die over a period of several days. If your heart is set on poison, why not choose a quicker kind?

And, I wouldn't be so sure that only the coyote can get to it. Your neighbors cat, for instance. A blue jay. One of your chickens, perhaps, or a squirrel. A skunk.


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## Guest

its really simple. just take a dead chicken, and stuff Coyote Poison up its Spinkter. and put a few in the area where you see fresh tracks..they will then eat the poison.in the chicken... End of problem.


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## countrygrrrl

Around here, people just go out and shoot off their guns or rifles whenever coyotes come around. They don't even have to shoot the coyotes --- the noise is enough to **** them off.

That's what I'd do if I were you. If you don't have a gun, get some fireworks and start setting them off randomly. The coyotes will move on to easier marks.


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## Jena

I went camping last night with five little boys. We had all kinds of fireworks and made a ton of noise. Within an hour of settling down, the coyotes came through, probably not 100 yards away. We had a latern on and a fire going and were still up talking.

Scared those kids to death! we ended up going home at 1am since they all couldn't fit in the car!

I was very surprised that they came through there at all after all the racket we made. 

Jena


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## Haggis

Beef up your chicken protection for now and let the varmint be until late fall and its pelt is prime, then trap it, sell it, and use the money for more chickens.

Forget poisons of any kind. Please?


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## fordy

...................Coyote(s) are like the Italian\French Army.......they are gonna ......."Havva suppa first , then a little Vino , then maybe squeeze in a little bang bang , then itsa time to head for da Casa.....fordy.....


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## Guest

Antifreeze causes kidney failure--and a long, slow, agonizing death. I have often considered it for coyotes around us--but too risky for other animals, and I just couldn't. Even to a coyote! Initially, antifreeze is metabolized into alcohol (affected animals appear drunk) and Calcium Oxalate crystals. The crystals actually plug up the kidneys and cause renal failure. Other animals that would feed on the carcass of an animal killed by antifreeze would be fine because the antifreeze would already be metabolized. Fascinating, really. I think there are better ways to kill varmint, though, but it sets one thinking sometimes...

Vet who lurks


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## debitaber

everything people here have told you is correct. put your chickens up at night . under lock and key, if you must. and wait until nov. or dec. I would probably wait until jan. trap him, and make moeny on his pelt. But never put out poison, deer or other animals, will probably get into it. and in the oder of the natural food chain, every animal that at off that animal would die. that is a sad thing to do. please don't do it.Oh it would kill that animal, but also many others. We have them here in michigan also. we have them on our homestead. We hear them at night. We also have fox, and you name it, we have it. But I would never set out poison. IT is just to risky. and what if a child got into it? anti freeze smells sweet, a child could pick it up and drinlk it. kids do crazy things. even if you tell them no.


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## heelpin

Antifreeze containing Eythlene Glycol is very poisonous to animals and humans, it has a sweet taste and they will lap it up, produces a very agonizing death by destroying the Kidneys, very cruel in my opinion even for Coyotes.
Check the label of antifreeze, some contains Propylene Glycol which is considered safe (?) and is use in cosmetics and food products to retain moisture. The cheap antifreeze usually contains the poisonous stuff.

___________________________________________________________________

Sometimes I wake up Grumpy but most times I'll just let her sleep.


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## Guest

I don't understand why any sane person would even THINK of asking others if it's O.K. to put antifreeze out for wild animals. If you have a brain at all you'd automatically know to NOT DO such a STUPID uncivilized act.


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## stonerebel

Yes it will do the job and it is not a slow death, its pretty quick. Please people they are killing his chickens get over it. Its almost like blaming a victim of a crime because they should not have had nice things in there house to lure the criminal to them. Liberals I just do not get how they think!


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## mousecat33

Stone, watch your labels. Liberal used to be such a good word till El Rushbo put his fat mouth around it. :no: These are modern times, no need for something archaic as poison. We have gas powered projectiles that are quick and efficient. Please use them responsibly.
We owe it to the critters.

Renee, if you do skin that yote, take a look at those hams and tell me that you can tell the difference from a deer or hog. They usually look pretty good. One of these days I'm gonna give it a try ( cooked well done ) :yeeha: 

happy varmint huntin

mc


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## mightybooboo

stonerebel said:


> Yes it will do the job and it is not a slow death, its pretty quick. Please people they are killing his chickens get over it. Its almost like blaming a victim of a crime because they should not have had nice things in there house to lure the criminal to them. Liberals I just do not get how they think!


Laying poison around that ANY animal can get into is pretty foolish.Lock up your birds and get THE animal responsible,thats what a thinking person would do,not indiscriminately kill anything that can drink.
BooBoo


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## comfortablynumb

No offense here but...

Are you nuts? Antifreeze?
jesus christ on a crutch....

take a good size rifle, set out some dead chickens around the coup in your line of fire and WAIT.

antifreeze... ack!

BTW boiled cyotee it pretty tasty.

You will have to sit and wait... take turns. set up a good distance away so your movements dont spook them. 
it could be ***** or fox or even MINK. Ive seen rats kill and drag off small chickens also.

antifreeze will kill whatever eats that dead animal and so on... NO antifreeze.
jeeze.

put up a corral around the coup and get a donkey they hate dogs.


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## Guest

If a coyote can get to it, so can a dog or cat. 

Stonerebel I sure hope you don't live close to me. Anti-freeze DOES cause a slow painful death. If you ever watch animal emergency on TV there are lots of people who bring in their pet that has gotten into anti-freeze. Not a pretty sight.


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## Guest

Try Fly bait (the little crystals) mixed with Mountain Dew. Cheaper than anti-freeze and they'll be dead within 10' of the dish.

Works great on Racoons and other night time varmits that keep slipping by and/or only visit when your snoozing. Put it out when all the animals are in bed, pick it up in the morning.

About 2 tablespoons of fly bait crystals with 2 cups of Mountain Dew dropped a big racoon 3 feet from the dish. Wish I would have known sooner, I've been sleeping with windows open, gun at my side for over a month trying to nail that bugger!


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## renee7

Don't worry. I went out and got the antifreeze. Nothing had got into it. I lock my chickens up at night, but this was in daylight. But I'm more worried about my sheep. I have a good barn, all except it has no doors. I have the plywood to make the doors, was waiting for my son to help me. Not sure I can do it myself.

I talked to my neighbor. What I saw was a yellow color. He said it may be half coyote and half dog. He shoots the coyotes all the Time. I can't watch all of the time.


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## Shygal

Oh yeah, just because someone doesnt want something to die a horrible LONG agonizing death, then that means they are liberals


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## BigSkyBoerGoats

Get a Great Pyrenees LGD and you won't have any problems, I promise.

WWW.BIGSKYBOERGOATS.COM


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## Bladesmith

Great Pyr's sound like a good idea...but got anything else that will survive a florida summer?


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## bethlaf

ok , i understand not wanting them around, but we're talking florida, kill one and another will replace it .....

just a thought , 
something we use here,i have several neighbors with un nuetered dogs, they wander, and i dotn want them around., luckily i have a teen son , and a hubby who likes to play paint ball...
a coyote, or dog shot with one of these will have a welt or a darn good bruise.... , and the scare will keep them away , yes you still have to "hunt " them , but you can fix them up 
it works here for dogs !
except for one, and on that one , well, its amazing what a well aimed broadhead does to a dog that has bitten a child ...
go ahead and say what you will, but i wont tolerate my child being bitten because the meth heads down the road wont control thier mutt.


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## Guest

Unregistered said:


> I don't understand why any sane person would even THINK of asking others if it's O.K. to put antifreeze out for wild animals. If you have a brain at all you'd automatically know to NOT DO such a STUPID uncivilized act.


I agree with you completely!


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## debitaber

I agree with al of you , in NOT using antifreeze. But we use to have a very elderly couple that lived down the road from us, on the next farm, and they used it all the time. lots of old farmers so, they say it gets the job done. I was always up set when they did this. but their thinking was, they lock their animals up in stalls, then set it out, and then pick up the anti freeze in the mroning before they let their animals out. but I know they killed many a litter of kittens as well, as everything else. I think it is a heart less thing to do. 
A gun works very well, here at this place. you just have to stay up and watch. So it takes some of your time, and you might loose some sleep over it, but it is the best way to go. and the animal, dies in a heartbeat. with out suffering. and to me that is the best way to go.


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## comfortablynumb

> they say it gets the job done.


or, the ends justify the means.

which of course they teach the kiddies is wrong.

aint people entertaining?


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## tngirl

I don't think antifreeze is a good idea. I agree with whoever posted that you should sit out with a rifle instead. Antifreeze poisoning is such a terrible painful way to die. And it's not the fox's fault, he's just hungry.


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## GeorgeK

anything with kidneys



debitaber said:


> yes it will, it will also kill just about every other animal , that drinks it.


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## GeorgeK

Actually its more nausea than pain, it causes renal failure, less painful than being gutshot if you are not a marksman



tngirl said:


> I don't think antifreeze is a good idea. I agree with whoever posted that you should sit out with a rifle instead. Antifreeze poisoning is such a terrible painful way to die. And it's not the fox's fault, he's just hungry.


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## GeorgeK

It's worked for me but some on this forum claims it doesn't. Human male urine collected about 6 hours after a meaty meal, sprinkled around the area to mark your territory keeps out the four legged predators.



countrygrrrl said:


> Around here, people just go out and shoot off their guns or rifles whenever coyotes come around. They don't even have to shoot the coyotes --- the noise is enough to **** them off.
> 
> That's what I'd do if I were you. If you don't have a gun, get some fireworks and start setting them off randomly. The coyotes will move on to easier marks.


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## GeorgeK

re-apply every week of after any rain, whichever is first




GeorgeK said:


> It's worked for me but some on this forum claims it doesn't. Human male urine collected about 6 hours after a meaty meal, sprinkled around the area to mark your territory keeps out the four legged predators.


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## GeorgeK

sounds like the coyotes around here



Jena said:


> I went camping last night with five little boys. We had all kinds of fireworks and made a ton of noise. Within an hour of settling down, the coyotes came through, probably not 100 yards away. We had a latern on and a fire going and were still up talking.
> 
> Scared those kids to death! we ended up going home at 1am since they all couldn't fit in the car!
> 
> I was very surprised that they came through there at all after all the racket we made.
> 
> Jena


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## BigSkyBoerGoats

Sure, you can sit outside with a rifle all day if you don't want to get anything else done. You can put out antifreeze and kill everything in sight or you can get a good dog that will keep the varmits away. You seriously need to look into getting a good quality livestock guardian dog. And yes, Great Pyrenees will survive a hot Florida summer. All they need is a little shade a water just like anything else. 

We run 30 head of goats in a high coyote populated area in Ohio. Our kids run with the mature goats. We have had a lot of stray dogs killing livestock as well, more so than coyotes this year. As the neighbors stock gets killed off little by little...... I keep selling more pups for a reason. They speak for themselves. I have not lost a single animal to predators. If you want to make a long term investment to protect your assets, you need a good dog. Nuf said.


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## Guest

Call all your neighbors and tell them of your problem and that you are going to put poison out for one week and then it will be safe to turn their pets loose. Sure it is cruel to poison with antifreeze, but you have to do what you have to do. I am sure that your chickens are not in alot of pleasure when the cyotes are crushing them to death with their jaws.
You have every right, and obligation to protect your pets and animals. By the way for the people that tell you to just shoot, or trap them, they probably have never dealt with a wiley coyote. It ain't that easy to do. I have had alot of problems with deer in the past and tried all the humane tricks until i finally realized that it wouldn't work. Now i keep a 22 at the back door and another one in the shop. Got 11 in the last 4 months and believe me it has helped the situation. Now when a deer crosses my property is going soo fast that i don't get a shot at it. As long as it crosses my land that fast it is not going to cause any problems. Do whatever you have to do to get rid of them. Probably when you talk to your neighbors they have probably had problems to, and might want to put out some antifreeze to. Just be sure and use antifreeze that has already been used, it work's alot better. It picks up alot of lead from the radiator. 
Good luck,
the varmit hater.
Mike


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## mightybooboo

BIL neighbor shot the coyotes and hawks going after his chickens.Shot the rabbits in the garden.Next year they had MORE coyotes,More rabbits,more mice,less hawks.There are problems with upsetting the ecosystem like that.
He finally locked his birds up securely.
I like the dog answer too.Beats poison by a mile.
BooBoo


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## Runners

After being away for months, and then reading the previous posts, I was reminded why I left this forum. Just timing that I read it all, but this was just too much!

If you've forgotten what it looks like to come home from wally world, and find your coop open, run torn apart, and dead or dieing birds littering the yard, just do nothing. Keep feeding the varmints from your fresh bird smorgasboard, they appreciate the easy pickings!

Go ahead, quit your job and sit in a tree with a gun day and night, hoping to nail one. They're not stupid, they'll smell you and wait until you leave for 5 minutes before they grab another bird.

Maybe it's not a coyote, how about a fox, mink, opossum, rats, snakes, hawks, or neighbor's pet poodle? So what!? Just keep on feeding the varmints!?

We came home from buying feed a couple of weeks ago, to find fresh blood running down the necks of our birds, it was the middle of the day. Yeah, my kids saw it all. They were wondering if mom and dad were gonna "get those murdering varmints". They weren't spouting nonsense like, "Well, it's just natural for a varmint to tear apart a dozen birds, leaving some dead (or dying) and eating the heads off the others." They wanted the murderous varmint stopped, NOW.

A slow agonizing death by Anti-freeze would have been just fine by them, heck they probably would have enjoyed watching it die after what it did to the hand raised, very tame, defenseless birds.

I opted for fly crystals and mountain dew. It stopped that varmint cold the FIRST TIME, when I couldn't catch the varmint night after night of staying up with a gun. As a benefit, it also stopped the egg stealing, probably a rat, and the birds actually sleep quietly at night again.


When a 3 roaming wild dogs came through the neighborhood and took down a 35lb turkey, she was was barely tough enough to make it back to the house - dragging a dog, latched onto her thigh, some 150 yards. Feathers and blood everywhere, I ran for a gun and emptied it, missing them all as they scattered on a dead run. It took 6 weeks to get that hen walking normal again, but not a feather will ever grow on that side they tore open. She looks fresh plucked on one side. The kids washed and packed those wounds daily for 6 weeks. Had I not stopped in for lunch, this sweet old BBW hen would have fed 3 wild dogs. 


6 months ago, another pack of dogs killed a deer 200 feet outside our front door. My kids noticed 4 or 5 of them dining on it in the early morning light. That time, the 25-06 did get one of them, it had a collar & no tags, a neighbor got 2 more, and the rest ... we saw a ***** with a half dozen puppy mutts trailing her a month ago. 

Well, everyone in the neighborhood is shooting them as fast as the city slickers drop them off. Wild dogs don't just appear out of nowhere. Some people actually leave the collars on these, after they remove the tags. My wife got an ear full for calling the county animal control, they told her to shoot them on sight. It was a lawyer that insisted we needed to let animal control handle this kind of thing - "liability", he said, "don't want to shoot someone's pet". No wonder why he's on a call-in talk show, he's got no clients, or sense. He even argued with the lady from animal control that called in to straighten him out. She .... BTW... said, "...by ANY means, any way possible, kill them." I guess someone here would call her "uncivilized" or "cruel".


I've seen what coyotes do to the fox, raccoon, deer, bob white, pheasant, partridge populations when they moved into southern Wisconsin 30 years ago. The woods I once walked through, camped in and played as a kid - I wouldn't set foot in them alone, and without a side arm. My brother says he can't remember the last time he heard a bob white quail, ruffled grouse - birds we grew up with and enjoyed hearing & seeing, but never hunted. The coyotes (not natural to Wisconsin, are they?) have completely altered the natural eco-system in southern Wisconsin, and decimated the species that had been there for centuries.

Now, when my kids want to see or hear a ruffled gouse drumming on a hollow log, I can show them a picture and play a tape. If they want to hear a bob white quail, we have them penned up - because I have to raise them in captivity, behind bars. I have a stuffed fox, so they can look at that and maybe I can find a couple of "yips & yaps" sounds on the internet somewhere. We can thank the DNR and the evironmentalists for trying to recreate this so-called balanced natural environment (in their own twisted image). Actually, all they really wanted to do was eliminate the need for hunters and eventually all the guns.

Jena said she took her boys camping in the woods? We useto go out for days or a week at a time as kids, just coming home for more pancake mix and syrup if the blackberries weren't sweet enough. I'd be crazy to take my kids out into the same woods now. Even if you didn't get attacked, seeing those staring eyes all night in the campfire glow and the yipping and howling would keep you up - and I don't care how big a dog (or GP) you got, coyotes EAT Great Pyrenees too! The breeder I got mine from in Colorado said they are NO MATCH for a dozen hungry coyotes. A pair of winerrammer (sp, also know as a grey ghost), or a pair of russian wolfhounds are the only dogs I've ever witnessed killing coyotes, but the coyotes learn fast, and will in turn, hunt your dogs in larger and larger numbers, overwhelming them. Let coyotes begin to flourish, and watch everything else disappear, including your cat & dog - it happens so quickly and suddenly!


The next time you start losing birds, right and left, will a gun, anti-freeze, fly crystals & dew, rat poison, poison carcass, traps be your answer, or would it be some liberal environmentalist tripe like, "they're only doing what's natural, lock up your birds behind bars". Varmints learn fast by habit and ease of procuring the prey. They will not stop until they find an easier source of food, or you kill them.

When some bear or cougar kills a defenseless jogger, or pit bull kills some kid playing in the back yard - do you hunt down and kill the varmint? Or chew out the parents for not putting the kid in a cage and jogger's friends for letting him/her run (free range).

Said about all I wanted to, but it probably won't do any good. I am truely saddened by the numerous posts, that I consider written in ignorance of what's really at stake.

Bill


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## Guest

What a rediculous, long-winded rant! Maybe you should go back into hibernation.


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## comfortablynumb

> Go ahead, quit your job and sit in a tree with a gun day and night, hoping to nail one. They're not stupid, they'll smell you and wait until you leave for 5 minutes before they grab another bird.


thats why hunting is not an instinct its an aquired skill...



> Maybe it's not a coyote, how about a fox, mink, opossum, rats, snakes, hawks, or neighbor's pet poodle? So what!? Just keep on feeding the varmints!?


no you pretty much shoot those too.



> They were wondering if mom and dad were gonna "get those murdering varmints".


your worried about what the KIDs want done about it?


> A slow agonizing death by Anti-freeze would have been just fine by them, heck they probably would have enjoyed watching it die after what it did to the hand raised, very tame, defenseless birds.


and the parent of the month award goes to...



> I ran for a gun and emptied it, missing them all as they scattered on a dead run.


so your a lousy shot... whoopee.

liberal whiners? I dont think so these folks are rightly so just pointing out a poison like antifreeze isnt effective and humane.

Ive baited and shot everything from dogs to racoons and rats to *****cats.
dogs are easy to bait and shoot, they have little flight instinct.

yes there are some situations where fast acting poison is ok. 

we had a few packs of feral dogs here, it took time but the neighbors and I exterminated them. Part of it was baiting and waiting. one of the farmers used leg traps he cought his own livestock and a cat. one brainiack used poison and killed his own dog.

if you have that big of a predator problem you need to suspend the livestock farming and exterminate the problem first.
ive cought more with wire box traps than with anything else. shoot them in the cage and then dispose.
invest in a dozen large box traps and bait them... 

oh if you can SEE a set of yellow eyes in the dark.. here is a tip... aim between them and SHOOT.
its called night poaching. by far the easy way to hunt. thats why its illegal.

or use the poision, your not my neighbor.

I sacrificed and took the precaution of putting up fencing where it was needed. solid fence, cyclone fence and tightly closed wire on pens where needed. (you can make a pen predator proof, dont be a cheapskate)
yeap cost $$$, its better than loosing your animals.


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## OD

Runners:
You said exactly what I was thinking, but it would have taken me all day to type that much. It is truly sad when the victim is blamed for what happens to him/it, & ridiculed for doing what is necessary to protect himself/his property. 
My chickens have to be penned 75% of the time to protect them from predators, yet the neighbors' dogs are free to come by & help themselves to one at any time & if I was caught shooting one, I could be charged with cruelty to animals. (It has actually happened to someone I know). 
My ancestors spent 100 years ridding this area of wolves, & now....someone....has "repopulated" them here. They have very little fear of people, & a pack of them threatened my neighbor while she was walking in the woods behind her house, yet they are "protected". What is she supposed to do, stay out of her woods, so the wolves can have them?
If things continue in this direction, it won't be long before we can only hide in fear, & not defend ourselves at all.


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## comfortablynumb

> if I was caught shooting one, I could be charged with cruelty to animals.


well dont get caught... and no if ANY domestic is on your property killing or causing dammage you can shoot them. At least in PA you can. it part of the incentive to keep fido confined if he is a livestock eater, you may very well loose him. my neighbor has shot 2 of the other neighbors rottenwielers, one shredded his beagle, the other he shot as a precaution.
no reprocussions.



> What is she supposed to do, stay out of her woods


within the bounds of your propery you can kill them. your local law may vary. here in PA we can shoot anything if its a problem and is on our property.

repopulating wolves was a very bad idea anyway, the room the require has been long gone for ages....I would kill em and bury/eat them and deny everything.


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## stonerebel

I am glad to see someone agrees with me about protecting your property. I spoke up last week and got crucified for it I was beginning to think I was the only non peta member on here.


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## Terri

stonerebel said:


> I am glad to see someone agrees with me about protecting your property. I spoke up last week and got crucified for it I was beginning to think I was the only non peta member on here.


No, you were DISAGREED with by PEOPLE (not liberals, and not People Eating Tasty Animals) who suggested shooting, trapping, better fences, or faster-acting poisons to protect the chickens.


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## Shygal

I dont think ANYONE HERE said that people didn't have the right to protect their property from predators.
What was said, was that the METHOD of protection doesnt have to be something as cruel and slow as antifreeze, that it should be something more humane, and less of a danger to other animals. I dont think there was even one post here denying someone the right to protect their property.


What is the problem with that? Im sick of people yelling Liberal or PETA if you have a problem with something suffering for days. If you have a predator, yes, do something, but at least do something that doesnt have to cause a long drawn out suffering.

I saw a cat die of antifreeze poisoning, I listened to its agonized howling for two days (and before anyone jumps on me, I was about 12 years old, and my dad would not take it to the vet or put it out of its misery). I wouldnt do that to ANY animal.


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## Haggis

I'm not a PETA member but I do believe in the ethical treatment of animals. I'm also an old fox and coyote trapper who for serveral years made a major portion of my family's living from trapping.

This year a Red Fox has been availing its self of my laying hens to feed its family and this fall I will avail myself of its family's pelts to pruchase replacement pullets, but I won't be using poison.

I let my chickens out of their coop after 10 a.m. and take the risk that a varmint might get a few of them. The varmints that come around my livestock are also taking the risk that I will get a few of them, but I won't let them suffer; they didn't let my livestock suffer when they made their kills.


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## Runners

OD said:


> My chickens have to be penned 75% of the time to protect them from predators, yet the neighbors' dogs are free to come by & help themselves to one at any time & if I was caught shooting one, I could be charged with cruelty to animals. (It has actually happened to someone I know).


Maybe you me and comfortablynumb aren't that far apart, we all want to see the varmint DEAD, we might differ on the method. I don't have the luxury of staying home all day and hunt. 



OD said:


> My ancestors spent 100 years ridding this area of wolves, & now....someone....has "repopulated" them here. They have very little fear of people, & a pack of them threatened my neighbor while she was walking in the woods behind her house, yet they are "protected". What is she supposed to do, stay out of her woods, so the wolves can have them?
> If things continue in this direction, it won't be long before we can only hide in fear, & not defend ourselves at all.


My sister has a picture of a kid on the backyard swing set. This is in California, in the suburbs. In one of the bushes, near the swingset, a mountain lion is watching the kid. When it starts happening in your back yard, you'll use anything & everything at your disposal (poisons) - if you're allowed to own guns, probably them too.

Comfortablynumb - my kids weren't worried IF we were gonna do something, it was "They were wondering if mom and dad were gonna "get those murdering varmints"." - as in they know how DIFFICULT it is to nail some varmints.

From your previous comments, why would you use a leg hold trap? Where they are still legal, in most states they require a license, big $$$ and lots of paper work. no thanks, anti-freeze or fly bait crystals is cheaper, and I don't care if the varmint slinks back to a hole and dies a painful death. 

Comfortablynumb said, "repopulating wolves was a very bad idea anyway, the room the require has been long gone for ages....I would kill em and bury/eat them and deny everything."

No... parent of the week goes to you. We try to do everything as legal as we can, "poaching 101" isn't part of our hunter education program in Virginia, nor was it in Wisconsin. The traps we set, weren't for animals, they were for so-called hunters. Hard to DENY video tape before a judge.

"...if you have that big of a predator problem you need to suspend the livestock farming and exterminate the problem first..."

THAT IS A STUPID STATEMENT THAT DESERVES NO RESPONSE.


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## comfortablynumb

> why would you use a leg hold trap?


I said box trap....



> "...if you have that big of a predator problem you need to suspend the livestock farming and exterminate the problem first..."
> 
> THAT IS A STUPID STATEMENT THAT DESERVES NO RESPONSE.


whats so stupid about it? if the problem is bleeding you dry, your not profiting any by constantly replacing the dead stock...
yes i am aware that not everyone has the luxury of "staying home all day to hunt".
I know farm kids that it is their job all summer to hunt... I know farmers who have stopped raising cattle to take the time to rid the farm of grondhog holes. I know a farmer who had to coral his livestock and pen up his smaller stock for 6 months to rid his property of HUMAN vandals cutting his fences and ripping his posts, with ther dogs chasing off his sheep.

Some folks do suspend operations to kill a problem... its more common than you are aware of.

I dunno what type of operation you have... if its not your bread and butter, then you will gain in the end by cleansing your area of the problems. 
BTW Stuipd is as stupid does..... 




> We try to do everything as legal as we can, "poaching 101" isn't part of our hunter education program in Virginia,


ahh you try to keep from getting in trouble with big brother... well thats a problem no one can help you with. 
poaching and protecting with a zipped lip is differnt.
if your in eyeshot of a video camera all your life, you need to bug out of that camp. 
dont fall for the traps. the traps are stationary stuffed animals to draw fire. if it isnt moving and isnt around your buildings or on your land.. you dont shoot it.
i know poaching traps we have em here... you have to be a real dumb azz to fall for a poach trap. the game commission doesnt bait poachers with live animals, and if you cant tell a live one from a stuffed one you shouldt be shooting at it.

part of your freedom is maybe at some point havignto watch that tape and defend your right in front of that judge to protect your livestock. judges aint stupid, but they often have their hands tied.
freedom aint cheap.... fight em for it or you wont be allowed to farm there either!


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## comfortablynumb

"hunter education programs"

more big brother BS. let us educate you before we ALLOW you to hunt.
mm mm mmmm. I thought thats what dads were for. the are starting that BS in PA too... you have to pass a hunter course before you get your papers. (imagine in america... you papers.... aug.. makes ya sick)

YOUR LAND. you dont need stinkin papers.
YOUR LAND. all within its boundries are fair game if its being destructive.
YOUR LAND... not big brothers land. Remember that.

I smell socialism creeeeeeping in.... BRRRRR!


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## GeorgeK

In kentucky they are on the shelf in the open, like 7 bucks apiece for coyote sized legholds. Cage box traps are also available but into three digit prices



Runners said:


> . Where they are still legal, in most states they require a license, big $$$ and lots of paper work. ..


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## Runners

Haggis said:


> This year a Red Fox has been availing its self of my laying hens to feed its family and this fall I will avail myself of its family's pelts to pruchase replacement pullets, but I won't be using poison.
> 
> The varmints that come around my livestock are also taking the risk that I will get a few of them, but I won't let them suffer; they didn't let my livestock suffer when they made their kills.


A heritage turkey chick costs between $6 and $10 each. I can't see losing $1000 worth of chicks or $5000 worth of half grown birds for the CHANCE I might get to harvesting a fox or two, but we're talking about worthless coyotes and wild dogs here.

I don't WANT anything to suffer either, but seeing feathers and blood everywhere, and half dead birds scattered around your house .... does .... tend ... to ... adjust ... your ... perspective ... and sense of urgency, a bit! Now I'm out for the kill, anyway I can get them. Fly Crystals and Mountain Dew worked fast, not in days, but minutes (I suspect). Within 10 feet of the dish, on the very first night we put it out.

If I could have done it with LEAD, trust me, I didn't spend 2 weeks trying to nail this bugger. He was very quick, quiet and deadly. The sound of a duck or turkey dying in the woods isn't pleasant either.... Sound carries rather well, we regularily hear the wild dogs/coyotes killing deer across the hills. It sounds like a kid goat bleating for it's life... A neighbor lost a couple of calves this spring to the dogs/coyotes, another sickening sound.

Anyone that's hunted varmints like coyotes can confirm they are smart, learn fast and are relentless opportunists. I'd not hesitate to use anything & everything legally at my disposal to protect my birds. Installing a over a mile of chain link fence, buried 3 feet deep...?

Comfortablynumb - "i know poaching traps we have em here... you have to be a real dumb azz to fall for a poach trap. the game commission doesnt bait poachers with live animals, and if you cant tell a live one from a stuffed one you shouldt be shooting at it."

Not all poacher bait is stuffed deer... and the video cameras... broadcast to *our* recorders. Yea, those 7mm & 300 win mag rifles will poke holes in just about anything, but we both know a poacher won't use something THAT big, when it's dark, and that nice 12 point buck is staring at you... as you reach for your gun, keep in mind, some can see quite clearly in total darkness... They can snort, stomp, flick the tail, raise and lower the head and "look" around. When you hear the "ping" echo back - it's too late.

"...you have to be a real dumb azz to fall for a poach trap."

Also happens to smart azzes all the time... Sometimes a real smart azz is really a dumb azz, eh? First mistake they make is thinking they can get away with it. The second one is bragging about it... sooner or later, they just gotta tell the whole neighborhood. You might be easier than you think.

Animal Control's "blessing" can make questionable tactics/ethics legally acceptable.

Go ahead, have the last word, I give up.


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## comfortablynumb

no ones looking for the last word.

"You might be easier than you think"
implying I am a poacher...?
please. I'm not a poacher.
yes I've seen those fancy radio controled ones.. very realistic.
havent seen a radio controled cyote or wolf yet... that would be a nifty trick.

we arent talking about profit poaching, we are talking about nailing a predator within sight distance of a barn; not exactly poaching.

again someone has mistaken discussion for argument needing a "last word".... we disagree, thats all.


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## big rockpile

Well putting out Antifreeze to kill animals,or shooting Hawks are both punishable by Prison time,and or Fine.I realy don't think Chickens are worth that.

Plus you even talking about doing it on a public Forum,shows your not too much on the bright side.

Build a better Pen.

big rockpile


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## renee7

*Someone said, "...if you have that big of a predator problem you need to suspend the livestock farming and exterminate the problem first..."

THAT IS A STUPID STATEMENT THAT DESERVES NO RESPONSE*.

Yes it is but may be true. Silly me, I havenât done anything about the problem yet. I went out and got the anti-freeze. Didnât want anything suffering for days.

Then Iâve gone 2 or 3 days, and no more chickens missing. Great!!

This morning when I went to milk my goat, I noticed the other goat, the little pygmy goat standing by the fence not moving just shaking a little. I knew something was wrong. I went to see. She had her head fastened in the fence. Half of her ear was gone and a gash on her face. On the other side of the fence the weeds and grass was all mashed down. Probably the same varmints that killed my chickens. 

I was mad enough to kill them, if I could get hold of them. Next theyâll come after my sheep.

Killing one or two or a dozen isnât going to help. If I get to it before the coyotes do, I may butcher my sheep, although I didnât intend to until about Oct or Nov. Iâll probably kill the rest of my chickens too. Iâm plain disgusted.

My neighbor raises chickens for eggs. About 250 of them. He kills coyotes 2 or 3 at a time with a good gun .and they have gotten as much as 17-18 of his chickens at a time. 

Can you fix an electric fence good enough to stop them?
Can you build or make a box trap?

Iâm not interested in just killing 2 or 3. I need something permanant, or Iâll have to get rid of my animals. And Iâm not going to keep animals in a building all of the time. I have pretty good fences. But the neighbor says they can jump a fence. But if I could put electric on the fence I would do that.

Where could I find out about box traps? Surely they would be something that could be built.


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## big rockpile

Try this sight

http://www.livetrap.com/cgi/search....s.shtml&2_option=1&2=Deluxe+Single+Door+Traps

big rockpile


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## Guest

I'm with runners all the way. Short and sweet. --shoot shovel and shut up---


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## gandl2123

stonerebel said:


> Yes it will do the job and it is not a slow death, its pretty quick. Please people they are killing his chickens get over it. Its almost like blaming a victim of a crime because they should not have had nice things in there house to lure the criminal to them. Liberals I just do not get how they think!


You are right and all of the people that say it is a slow and painful death are mistaken. I've seen it work on racoons and the **** was only inches from the bowl. 

I meant this man last year who had ***** going under his home and tearing stuff up. He sat out a antifreeze/molasis concoction(sp), a family recipe I presume that kills them before sun-up. 

I have a dog that I want to kill (could do it with my bare hands but won't). Last night he came in under my fence and through the electric wire. I caught him connected to my registered black german shepard. I went to get the leash and before I could return he had un-stuck himself and was on his way out the way he came in. He has litterally destroyed my fence line with no less then 5 borroughs. I jumped into my van and followed him to his residence across the block. He went through a gap in the fence and then had the audacity of turning around and barking at me. I waited at the fence with flashers and lights on the house but no one came to the door. The police were summoned and to no avail.... I set a trap with a hot dog connected to my ceiling fan light switch...if he took the hotdog he would pull the 30lb fish line and turn on the light. I would get up and walk ouside and kill him with my 4/10. That would be legal except for the part where I discharge my firearm within 500ft of a house (mine) and within city limits. ********. I have seen so many people loose their arnimals (were they theirs if they can't keep them in the yard?) by farmers shooting them dead at long range with rifles. I plan to put all of my animals up and the antifreeze coctail will be there for a pesky racoon in the area....if the dog happens by for a late night romp he too will become a victim. I don't want to hurt any other animal and will promptly be out there to pick it up in the morning. I don't love cats but don't want to hurt them either. I'm so frustrated I could puke. I can't stand people that don't control their animals. 

So, short of buying some kind of electronic device that sets up a forcefield around my yard and alerts me of intruders......I don't have too many choices....

Also, maybe it would be better if I hit him over the head and carved him up for the dinner table.....you know they eat them in Korea. There supposed to be good. But that would be in-humane.....well, at last check our local "animal contrl" (BS) killed (humanely I might add....?) 7,000 dogs last year alone. Once you find them on your grocer's shelf there may not be such a problem.... There is a problem and if more people controled there animals reproductive organs (I just want to have one nice litter for family members who want a great pet then I will spay mine. 

You guessed it.....

I'm a yankee.


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## caberjim

Shoot them if you can, but you need the round the clock protection that a pair of LGDs will provide. And make sure you have a pair, not just one. Their barking should wake you if they need the help. We had a coyote problem back in Kentucky. They would come up close to the barn and the main house to get at the wild rabbits burrowing around there. Late one night our Belgian Shepherd got wind of several skulking about and took off after them - they never saw her coming. I guess being ripped into by a very angry 100+ pound shepherd coming out of nowhere was too much for them. They moved on to safer pastures and we did not see them again. 

Brief visit to the vet for a scrape on her foreleg - hell of a dog in her younger days. Still is at 10.


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## Quint

I've seen anti-freeze used in town more than I have in the country. Usually a silent way of ridding the neighborhood of an annoying dog that barks all the time or tears up your trash. They would usually boil the stuff first so it formed a thin syrup. Supposedly kills quicker. One old guy I knew swore by nicotine poison.

I've had predator problems around here but I've never used poison. If someone else feels the need to then I don't have a problem with it. Mother nature can be much more cruel than any anti-freeze induced death. I would prefer them to use something less painful but if that is their best option so be it. It isn't any of my business.

I have to kill feral dogs more than anything else. People dump the things out in the country and we have to dispose of them. It gets to the point where you just dig a pit and lime it every so often or you would spend all your time digging holes. The worst is when they dump out vicious mongrels, usually rotts mixed with god knows what. They will attack you in a heartbeat. I had one run me back into the truck a few days ago when I was getting the mail. I keep a AR-15 in M-4 configuration behind the seat in the truck specifically for feral dogs and for coyotes. A dandy little rifle for such purposes by the way and when loaded with cor-bon blitz king ammo it does the trick on coyotes or feral dogs. When the coyote numbers get too high around here the quail populations just crash. I work very hard on creating and maintaining quail habitat and the d*mn coyotes are the biggest impediment to my efforts. Them and and feral pets. I had a group of several coyotes show up and I lost an entire covey in the north field. I've shot 5 in the past month or two but it will take three times that to make a dent. Just judging from the racket they make at night I would guess I have way over a dozen or more on just on my place. I may start running a trap line again next year.


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## Terri

Gandl, I hate to say it, but chances are that there will be another mutt the very next time she goes into heat. 

I have HAD a ***** in heat. She slept inside when she was in heat: it was the only way I could avoid puppies. Dogs clear up the street were trying to dig out of their yards and into mine.  

You CAN get rid of THIS dog, but then there is the next one, and the next one.....


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## moonwolf

"Will antifreeze kill coyotes?"

Maybe, and probably. But antifreeze is cruel on several levels relating to both the wildlife which may encounter your action to deliberatly placing antifreeze out in the environment illegally. 
Also, as already pointed out, the antifreeze is a hazard and potential killer to your own domestic stock, or dogs by accidental spillage or animals feeding on a dead coyote carcass. 

Consider also that some of this type of intervention has unpredictable results which some coyotes or other animals more attracted to the area...including larger predators that may develop resistance to toxins or tolerate for a long time and still do damage. It's also not that far fetched that following generations of coyotes with toxin tolerance passed on with genetic morphosis. Might really be creating more monster than you realize by practices such as this. 

In a nushell it's not allowed to take poison control with antifreeze use into the environment. Heavy pollution fines for toxins like this excaping or deliberate placing eventually will be enforced on you.


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## bergere

I was not going to post on this at all.... but here is my take on things.
One to me, There are no Stupid questions.
We all started out as beginners at some point, and I know we all asked some,, ah.. rather interesting questions, that would of had folks shaking their heads as if to say, what is that person thinking by golly?
One can also respond in a manner that does not make a person feel like running away. We do not want newer folks to run and hide because we become a little too passionate with our answers.

I would have answered the question simply by going..

I do not think this personally is a good idea, and here is why. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Then maybe a tasteful link or two.
Like it can kill the good wildlife too,, or someones child that is in the wrong place at the wrong time, even though they should be no where near your place.

On another note...You know, I have been thinking a lot lately. About the predator problem..and it is a major one both for the small farmer to the big Rancher. Regardless of the reasons. Have been Reading ASI and others that put out information on the problems we are facing in this day in age.
Sometime, I have seen both Wolf and Coyote packs get so big, in what I call the pigeon syndrome, that something needs to be done.
The government and a few Stary eyed people that thought they were doing a good thing at the time. They should be the ones to either take the cost, or trap the ones that are being the most problems. Trap them in a more human manner, and be quick to come out when needed.
This is hypothetical, but this is something that can come true, if nothing is done by the people that raise livestock and have farms in the USA....
There are good folks out there, that have tried every method of non lethal deterrents to keep their livestock safe. From Guardian Dogs, to having folks ride the herds everyday. There are some areas that nothing works. Many packs of wolves are scheduled to be removed and not be a problem again. It is something that needs to be done.
If some of the people have their way, we would not be allowed at all defend our livestock and Farms. What would happen? I See , more and more folks being told to give up on making food for the country. I see us relying more on more on other countries for food. How much control over us, is that going to give other countries? Will we still be the USA?
I also see those big companies the only one raising our cattle, sheep, chickens, etc.. in huge buildings because the animals can't be left out because the predators are so abundant.
I would not want to eat those animals that are forced to live in intensive farming.
It will happen if the Animal Rights groups, keep posting and having TV ads, to all those people that think chicken eggs come from Costco. It is hard with us to compete with 1million dollar donations, like Bob Barker made.
You don't think it can happen, it already is. With every new law or restriction, with ever ad the Animal rights group post.
I just hope my son does not live in a world that can't have livestock or farms any more.
Please do not flame me for my thoughts... what I posted is just my worries.


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## jack_c-ville

Bergere,

Actually most of the animal rights proponents (myself included but certainly not PETA) want the same thing that you want. What you are trying to avoid is big indoor meat factories instead of real farms. That's what a lot of the activists are trying to stop as well. I won't eat pork that came from a store because most of those pigs never saw the light of day and somewhere a line is crossed in terms of basic decency. An animal ought to have some kind of a life and fresh air, even if it's ultimate destiny is to be eaten by humans.

It is sort of like the antifreeze discussion that this came from. Sometimes you have to kill a predator. The good and decent way to do it is to get your gun, wait for the varmint and shoot it as clean as possible. I've had to do it myself. If someone were to capture the same fox or coyote and kill it by cutting it's legs off and plucking out it's eyes we would all call him a sick SOB and probably want to have some words with him in the form of a whuppin'. Killing an animal with antifreeze isn't far off from that scenario. And I'd say that raising a semi-intelligent animal in a steel pen 3' wide without it ever seeing sunlight it's whole life is only a few steps away from that. 

Torturing an animal for any reason says a lot about the man who is doing it and what it says about him isn't fit to be printed in a family-friendly forum like this.

Shoot the predators and do what you have to in order to keep raising livestock outside on small farms where they belong. The vast majority of liberals understand that you are in the right. 

-Jack


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## jackie c

I don't know, but when I moved out to the wilderness, I KNEW there would be wildlife, predators included. I built my animal housing, predator proof. I keep my animals shut up at night. I haven't had a problem, have never lost even one animal in 8 years. I have LGD and SGD they do their job. If after all your precautions, you still manage to lose some, and feel the need to, for goodnes sake, dispatch them humainly!


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## Kenneth wuertz

stonerebel said:


> Yes it will do the job and it is not a slow death, its pretty quick. Please people they are killing his chickens get over it. Its almost like blaming a victim of a crime because they should not have had nice things in there house to lure the criminal to them. Liberals I just do not get how they think!


I agree completely. 2 nights ago they got my chiuaua. She was a part of my family and what they did to her was inhumane. I want to kill them with my bare hands.


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## 101pigs

renee7 said:


> I've been loseing my Chickens, 2 or 3 at a time. until now I only have 4 hens 2 banty's and one rooster. I don't think they can get the Guenias. I have 7. None missing.
> 
> Twice I saw the varmit. I ran out with my rifle. But by the time I get there Of course it is gone. once was about 5:30 in the morning. The other was at 10 am.
> 
> So I just now, went out and found where they come thru, and put a pan of antifreeze. No other animals can get to it, Can they climb over the fence?
> 
> I didn't have any trouble at all last year. But this year there is corn about 10 ft tall on 2 sides of my Chicken yard. And the coyotes, have no trouble hiding.
> 
> I'm more worried naw about my 5 lambs. Tonight I'm going to put the lambs, 2 goats and chickens, in the Chicken house and fasten them up.


Trap them. They make very tasty Sausage. So does Beaver tail, Dog, ****, etc. There is a company that sells all of those meats. Beaver tail roast is very good.


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## Danaus29

101pigs, renee7's profile doesn't even come up anymore. The thread is old enough to drive, 16 years.



Kenneth wuertz said:


> I agree completely. 2 nights ago they got my chiuaua. She was a part of my family and what they did to her was inhumane. I want to kill them with my bare hands.


Sorry about your chihuahua. Yotes are fast and very fond of domestic dogs. 
Do you live in town or way out where coyote hunting is permitted? If you live in town there isn't much you can do except never allow pets out alone, especially after dark. If you live where hunting is permitted your best bet is to get a hunter to come and thin out your local population.


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## Kenneth wuertz

Danaus29 said:


> 101pigs, renee7's profile doesn't even come up anymore. The thread is old enough to drive, 16 years.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry about your chihuahua. Yotes are fast and very fond of domestic dogs.
> Do you live in town or way out where coyote hunting is permitted? If you live in town there isn't much you can do except never allow pets out alone, especially after dark. If you live where hunting is permitted your best bet is to get a hunter to come and thin out your local population.


I live in town next to a huge manufacturer. They have a wildlife sanctuary on their property and we live right on the fence line. There are holes in the fence that they come through. We also have small children on our block and I've seen packs as large as 10.


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## Danaus29

Does your state have a division of wildlife? Contact them to see if there is anything they can do. In some states the div of wildlife will take action to eliminate threats to people.

Coyotes can climb fences. They can dig under fences. In short, fences are not a coyote deterrent. 

Poison is usually illegal. It is a federal offense to use antifreeze as a poison. Having made that disclaimer; newer antifreeze is made to taste bad to animals, it takes a long time for it to work, coyotes are smart and if one gets sick from antfreeze the rest of the pack will avoid it, if you leave a pan of antifreeze setting where a coyote can get into it then pets can get into it too.


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## TedH71

I would never use antifreeze. If you don't have a coop that's fenced in, start making one and put hot wire at the bottom and top. Easy peasy. If you don't have dogs that will fight a coyote, I would recommend you to get one. My catahoulas can and will whoop a coyote's butt.


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## TedH71

I have a dog that I want to kill (could do it with my bare hands but won't). Last night he came in under my fence and through the electric wire. I caught him connected to my registered black german shepard. I went to get the leash and before I could return he had un-stuck himself and was on his way out the way he came in. 

Not sure if you're aware, you're just guilty as your female in heat dog was. Basically when female dogs are in heat, they attract male dogs from 2 miles away. I'm serious. You failed at your job in keeping your female dog contained and having no way for male dogs to get to your female. So basically you're guilty and angry at the dog when it was entirely your fault. When I lived in the country, I kept track of my 12 dogs's heats and so on. Only had one planned pregnancy the entire time I lived on that property because I WAS RESPONSIBLE!


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## Danaus29

TedH71 said:


> Not sure if you're aware, you're just guilty as your female in heat dog was. Basically when female dogs are in heat, they attract male dogs from 2 miles away. I'm serious. You failed at your job in keeping your female dog contained and having no way for male dogs to get to your female. So basically you're guilty and angry at the dog when it was entirely your fault. When I lived in the country, I kept track of my 12 dogs's heats and so on. Only had one planned pregnancy the entire time I lived on that property because I WAS RESPONSIBLE!


Who are you addressing?


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## IlliniosGal

Danaus29 said:


> Who are you addressing?


I was very confused by this also.


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## FarmboyBill

Get a big havahart trap as I have, and tie a dead chicken to it, OR take a pan and throw old chicken bones form supper in it around the trigger pad and put the pan over the bones. The cyote s will mill around trying to get underneith the pan and trip the trigger, then its just a 22 at point blank range. Ive gotten around 8 or 9 posssums a armidillo or 2 and 2 ***** that way.


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## Wolf mom

Coyotes BeGone said:


> How can a person find a Coyote Den? What does 1 need to look for?


That says it all.... you go on a rant and you don't even know enough about coyotes to know what to look for. 
If you think coyotes are the only animals that will eat your tainted meat or drink antifreeze you are a few marbles short. If you think only coyotes kill and eat cats, you've lost the whole box.


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## IceFire

Instead of putting out antifreeze, which will cause a horrific death, why not just invest in a livestock guardian dog, and have it patrol where your animals and poultry are? There are a couple of breeds that are excellent LGDs - Great Pyrenees, Anatolian shepherds (around here, there are quite a few Anatolian/Pyrenees crosses.) That, or a livestock guardian donkey. They absolutely HATE canids, and will literally attack them (they also make a pretty good alarm system with their braying, letting you know that the 'yotes are around. Then again, if you have a dog, the donkey is likely to go after it, too.

I lost several chickens earlier in the year to a bobcat. A few months later, I got an Anatolian Shepherd. If an Anatolian can protect the livestock from the cheetahs and other big cats on the farms in Africa, they can definitely handle the coyotes and bobcats here on my homestead.


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