# Best type of cattle dog for small dairy



## mrsnav98 (Sep 1, 2011)

I've read most all the other posts on dogs, but they seem to be mostly about guard dogs. That's not what I need. I need a good cow dog to round up cows that get out, as well as bring them in to be milked.

One of our heiffers got out this morning and it took 1 hour, 3 adults, 3 pickups, our 2 oldest girls, and some spare fencing to get her back in. This was a first for us. Normally you can walk right up to her, put the lead on her, and she follows; not today! She ran through our veggie garden, through the neighbor's corn field, around our yard, and up and down the road.

Meanwhile our "farm" dog just sat on the porch and watched. He would NOT come when called. He's part golden retreiver, part German sheppard. We took him to a trainer and were told, despite him being "huge," he has really good potential.

He did work the heiffers well when they were younger. But since we brought our milk cow home, he's no help. He decided to show her who was boss on day 1, but she showed him. She came from a farm with a Border Collie, so she's not intimidated by dogs. She did well wtih the little collie, but maybe our dog comes off as a threat since he's so big? Now he's scared of her.

I think with a good cow dog, this morning would have gone much smoother, maybe. I want a dog that can handle the cattle, not run them, and not be intimidated by them. He needs to be good with kids, chickens, goats, etc. I don't care if he chases the cats.

Our other dog is great with EVERYTHING, but herding cows. Do we just need to work with him more? We have a shock collar that we've used before and seems to work. But the darn dog wouldn't even come when called this morning!

We only have 7 cattle. 2 will be butchered this winter, leaving us with 5, yet only one needs to be brought in to be milked, right now. We hope to be milking the 2 heiffers within the next year or two, so we would need three brought in.

My main concern for RIGHT NOW is bringing the cows back if and when they escape. So far, the heiffer this morning is the first and only time we've had the issue. We've had escapes before, but all we needed to do was walk up, put the halter on, and go.

But everybody, except the milk cow, is young, under a year. I'm sure we'll have other escape attempts. And for now, we only have electric. We will be repairing and replacing the old, existing barrier fence as time and money allows.

So the questions are:

1. Do I even have enough cattle to keep the dog from getting bored
(I do have 5 kids that will play with him)
2. Which breed of cow dog will work best for our situation/live stock

I've heard, and seen, that Border Collies are extremely high strung. In fact, the farmer that we got our milk cow from has to keep his muzzeled around company. I DEFINITELY don't want that.

I appreciate any thoughts and reccomendations from those of you with experience in this area.

***I walked the fence line this morning and cannot figure out how my heiffer got out. Fence is on, no dead spots, no "holes." She must have jumped it?***


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Have you considered a Bouvier des Flanders? They were bred to herd cattle and are not high strung like a border collie or heeler. They have the size, have the herding instinct, and are obedient. Because they haven't been bred for herding in a long time, you'll need to ask around. They are good family dogs.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Whatever you get, get it from proven herding lines and fully health-tested parents (as in hips/eyes checked by specialists, not just a bill of good health from a local vet). Nothing worse than getting a working dog that is either a poor worker or who is a good worker but ends up with health issues that prevent him from doing his job.

You'll also need to find someone to help you train the dog to herd. Even the best herding pup from proven herding lines is going to need training so you can direct him to herd the animals to the proper location. 

There's some general info for you here: http://www.herdingontheweb.com/starting.htm


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Australian shepherd from strictly working bloodlines. They can be less obsessive about herding but you do have to make sure the parents actually herd. Too many of them are being bred for beauty.

For myself, I would have a cur dog (catahoula or blackmouth cur) from working bloodlines. They have the ability to stop cattle from running away (head dogs) but for your milk cows, you need something different. Maybe a corgi from working bloodlines? You could consider the Australian cattle dog (aka heeler) but be very careful because there are many junk dogs out there compared to the good ones.


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## HayBabies (Feb 27, 2013)

Are your cows trained to come to grain? Maybe just shake a bucket of gain and they will follow you? Seems like that would be much easier then trying to find the right dog.


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## MARYDVM (Jun 7, 2004)

The problem with heelers can be their intensity. They like to bite cows to move them, and dairy cow udders can get damaged
.
I really admire a good heeler, but they can be a handful. The local cattle hauler had an incredibly tough heeler that could move anything anywhere. That dog sired a lot of puppies in the area. I saw quite a few at different dairy farms. At one they walked the dog on a baling string behind the cows to keep him from biting them. They put him in the truck once while moving some heifers through a pasture gate. One heifer turned back and tried to dodge past the farmer. When the farmer yelled at her and waved his arms the dog crashed through the closed drivers side window of the truck and put the heifer into the pasture at a dead run.

Most people have trouble dealing with that level of intensity.

Edited to add: if your current dog got pounded by your cow and lost his confidence, then of course he wanted to stay away from the loose heifer. I hope you didn't use the e-collar on him for refusing. You can't shock a dog to make it herd.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Go for good working lines with health tests. Make sure the parents work. Watch them work cows. There are plenty of weak bred dogs out there that can't or won't work when the job gets tough. Generally you won't really be able to tell if a dog is tough enough to work adult cows until he is well over a year old, sometimes closer to two, so you really are depending on the breeding behind the dog unless you don't mind wasting all that time and money only to find out he isn't going to do the job. I've seen some very nice Aussies and Australian Cattle dogs out of working lines. I've also seen a few nice Kelpies that could handle cattle. My personal favorite has to be well bred border collies, not out of show/agility/obedience lines. High strung dogs are generally poorly bred and/or poorly trained in any breed, not just border collies. Keep in mind you will have to train the dog and keep him fit as well as tuned up for work by working him on a regular basis whether you need to use him or not. It sounds like your neighbor should have done a little more socializing and training if he can't trust his dog without a muzzle. Get help from a good trainer and go to a few cattle trials before you decide for sure. 
Here's a video of a couple of my border collies moving jersey and dexter cows out of the woods into another field. 
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePZ40neF2DQ[/ame]
The pictures are of one of my border collies, Bruce, getting pets at a farm demo, and the other is penning a steer.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I've known a lot of Border Collies that were perfectly fine with people, around here I'd consider having to muzzle a Border Collie very unusual. It would be a good breed for you, IF your local breeders are doing a good job. 

I have a smooth coated Collie from working lines, she's a great dog, very very smart, but a little high energy for us (she's not two yet), as we are middle aged and don't have stock for her to work. She had to be worked with the kids to be gentle - any herding breed ought to be well socialized with children and learn NOT to herd them. 

Maybe the dog you have could be retrained and get over his fear by working smaller stock that he's not afraid of? I'd talk to that trainer for tips.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

I'm gonna disagree with wendle on one thing, if you get good working bred curs there won't be a question of being tough enough to work cattle. With that in mind I'm gonna recommend a catahoula cur from Doug Mason or a black mouth frome Randy Wright.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

mrsnav98 said:


> He did work the heiffers well when they were younger. But since we brought our milk cow home, he's no help. He decided to show her who was boss on day 1, but she showed him.
> 
> 
> Our other dog is great with EVERYTHING, but herding cows. Do we just need to work with him more? We have a shock collar that we've used before and seems to work. But the darn dog wouldn't even come when called this morning!


Your new milk cow knows the dog cannot move her so she doesn't listen. Even if you had another dog work with the cow it will still know the difference and likely always give that dog difficulty. 
Hopefully you haven't used a shock collar on your dog while working around livestock or herding. Shocking them at the wrong time(while they are looking at stock, working stock, or even thinking about working with stock) can quickly destroy their interest in herding and confidence. It can be very hard if not impossible to bring a dog back from a severe experience like that.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> I'm gonna disagree with wendle on one thing, if you get good working bred curs there won't be a question of being tough enough to work cattle. With that in mind I'm gonna recommend a catahoula cur from Doug Mason or a black mouth frome Randy Wright.


Sorry Pops, I didn't even think of that breed. I have to say I've never worked with catahoulas, but would really like to see them on a real job someday. 
I should also mention that Huntaways are supposed to be pretty good. Another is hangin tree cowdogs, never have seen one of them either, but hear good things.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

wendle said:


> Sorry Pops, I didn't even think of that breed. I have to say I've never worked with catahoulas, but would really like to see them on a real job someday.
> I should also mention that Huntaways are supposed to be pretty good. Another is hangin tree cowdogs, never have seen one of them either, but hear good things.


Unfortunately alot of catahoula curs are bred for looks now & certain lines of BMC are only small game dogs. Lacy cur dogs should be right there with them but I don't know any breeders I can recommend.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> Unfortunately alot of catahoula curs are bred for looks now & certain lines of BMC are only small game dogs. Lacy cur dogs should be right there with them but I don't know any breeders I can recommend.


That's too bad. People don't realize it only takes one generation to produce pups that are lacking in talent and work ethic. It's not hardwired in the dog just because of his breed. 
Both parents need to be good workers. Not one parent who's pretty and one who works.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

We've never used anything BUT borders. Personally, I've only known two that were high strung and both were under the age of about 3...








I wouldn't have any other breed, for my part. They're smart enough to read my mind, soft enough to be gentle around my kids and fast enough that working one on cattle is like loosing an arrow.


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## mrsnav98 (Sep 1, 2011)

The milk cow only charged at him. She didn't even touch him. That was enough to scare him from working her, though. We didn't shock him for it. Not only was he not even wearing his collar, but he did nothing wrong.

The only times we have shocked him were when he was training w/our heiffer calves & wasn't listening & being too aggressive; per the trainer's command, after warning beeps. It only took him 2xs to learn. Then he was great at rounding them up.

My concern is that, the bigger our cattle get, the more intimidated he will become, thus being useless when we need him most. He's a great dog. I just don't know if he'll be of any use w/the cattle. He wasn't purchased for working cattle. He was basically offered to us because his previous owners "moved & couldn't take him with."

I just thought he might be trainable on cattle. Maybe I need to look into Border Collies, though. The trainer we visited uses those for himself. And his didn't seem vicious.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

First your dog is half golden retriever. He might not ever make a herding dog. The breeding is totally different. Next, you have already shocked him for what your trainer considers too aggressive. Find a different trainer who knows how to handle a stockdog without shocking them. You want a dog that isn't weak but you are shocking him for getting after the cattle? 
"The bigger your cattle get", replace this with the more your cattle figure out the dog. Many dogs will harass or pick on a calf that doesn't know how to handle himself yet. All it takes is a look from an older cow, or even a yearling to convince some dogs to leave well enough alone. Watch how the dog and cow talk to each other through body language(without contact). This will tell you quite a bit about your dog.


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## mrsnav98 (Sep 1, 2011)

Thank you wendle. You've really opened my eyes. I'm completely green to this & need all the experienced advice I can get. 

I thought the BC w/the steer in your picture looked really viscous. But I suppose he needs to look that way to a creature that outweighs him by several hundred pounds! How else would he get that big guy to move? 

I foolishly thought I could train our dog to both round up the cattle, as well as snuggle up to them at night. I make myself laugh thinking about it now. How ridiculous.

Thanks again for the insight.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Just so you know the dog in the picture with the steer is the same one as in the other picture with the kids, and in the video. He also sleeps in the house at night. He is really quite a sweet boy. 
I'm glad to be able to help. After writing it I was a little worried about being too blunt. Hopefully you will be more successful with your next dog. They are really amazing animals.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

I don't have any good getting-after-them pics, but I've seen the younger (now older) BC in my pics bloody the nose of a bull on the fight.
She's also my son's 4H dog, is completely submissive to anyone and lets little kids pull her ears with nothing more than a sorrowful look at whatever adult is allowing it. 
Mean border collies are a rare specie...


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