# Shouldn't We Be Allowed the Choice?



## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

I am starting this thread not to argue or insult each other, but to encourage freedom of CHOICE regarding horns in dairy goats.

This has nothing to do with The Great Horned Debate, and I won't engage in that discussion.

I have dairy goats. I also have three children who really want to show a couple of kids. But because I disagree with disbudding, my children will not be allowed to show their goats. I think this policy is crap, and I have contacted the ADGA about it.

From the ADGA page:

_*Q - My animal has natural horns. Can it be shown? 

A - No, animals with natural horns shall not be shown.
*_

Why not give goat owners the choice, and not penalize animals that are left in their natural state?

I know some will say I DO have a choice, and that would be not to show if I choose to keep horns on my animals. While that is true, I have to wonder WHY the ADGA insists on mutilation in order to show.

Whether you disbud or not, wouldn't most of you agree that children shouldn't be excluded based on an arbitrary rule?


Every other breed of goat is allowed to be shown with horns, why are only dairy breeds are excluded?

I am not asking anyone to believe what I believe, or do what I do. But can't we all agree that owners should be able to show and not be forced to go against what we believe?

Many of you have said you won't own horned goats for various reasons, and that is fine. 

But many more of you have said you don't like to disbud at all, but feel you won't be able to sell your goats if you don't, because so many people want them for shows. If we all stood up to the ADGA and demanded that they stop disqualification for horned dairy goats, they would have to back down. 

Please, if you believe that people should be able to choose whether or not to disbud, and still be allowed to show, please, please contact the ADGA and let them know that this mandate is arbitrary and unfair. Choice is at the heart of the matter.

http://www.adga.org/index.php?option=com_contact&view=contact&id=2&Itemid=182


As an interesting side note, and I am not making this up, I just came back inside from the barn. As I was writing this post, my girls came inside to tell me that one of our sheep had her head stuck in a hog panel. She has no horns.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Horned animals can't be appraised either. Having horns on dairy goats limits a LOT of opportunities that are available and lowers value of the animals, unfortunately. 

I don't think disbudding is horrible or hard to do, but confidence is a must if you're going to go about it. 

I think people should be able to choose horned/disbudded. Raising boers, I wish they'd give you a choice too - now they're discriminating against goats that ARE disbudded - they can never be ennobled. Because my boer buck is an grits, I'd rather have had him disbudded. Especially since he's housed with my alpine buck whose top of his head gets all raw and sore because he's always beating heads against the boer buck during rut. But I chose to leave horns on the boers. I will be leaving horns on all boers I sell unless requested to be disbudded prior to 1 week of age.


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## Blue Run Farm (Feb 14, 2011)

Well, you could always breed polled dairy goats!  Sorry, I agree it is a stupid rule. I do disbud my kids (except the polled ones) but it doesn't seem fair to penalize people for not disbudding.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I'm pretty active in 4H here.
If your girls want to show market wethers to see if they like to show, those can have horns - BUT - be aware that at my fairground and several others I've known, if you have a horned goat there, you need to have a camper and sleep near the barns. Every year there are several campers back there. The fair will NOT be held liable if your horned animal gets hurt or hurts another animal or person. It is YOUR job to be right there and make sure that some unsupervised kid doesn't climb in with your animal and hurt themselves. 

So it's not just the ADGA that you have to worry about.
I don't show, and would only show a market wether - if something is being exposed to everything at a show, it's not coming back here. 

But I also think that it is a stupid rule, both that dairy does can not have horns and that Boers must. I don't milk horns, and I don't eat horns.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Guess it's not much different than dog breeds that can't be shown if they don't have their tails docked or their ears clipped...


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

It is a safety thing not a discrimination thing. You can register your goats all day long with A.D.G.A. , just not show. I can just see all those pee wee showmanship kids in the ring with three or four month old kids with horns. First kid(human) that gets a horn thrown up in there face when they are ask to switch goats. Sorry, I won't be contacting A.D.G.A. and the heart of this is the GREAT HORN DEBATE !!! P.S. Don't think AGS will let you show horned goats either.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

I have a Nubian doe whose previous owner tried to disbud, and failed. Now, my lovely little deer doe will always have goofy, misshapen, problem horns.

I just don't get why these organizations mandate something that should be discretionary. What is the reasoning behind it?


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

coso said:


> It is a safety thing not a discrimination thing.


Oh bull pucky. Every other breed is allowed horns, just not dairy.

And please point me to an article detailing how some poor little kid was gored to death by a rampaging Nigerian Dwarf.

The possibility of getting injured exists around any animal.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

So let's assume for the sake of argument that it is a safety thing. Why not have polled/disbudded shows AND horned shows? That way if you are worried about little Timmy getting a horn to the face you can let him show LaManchas or something, while my kids are in a different ring showing intact Nubians.


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

> Oh bull pucky.And please point me to an article detailing how some poor little kid was gored to death by a rampaging Nigerian Dwarf.


 This is what I mean by it is about the GREAT HORN DEBATE. Sorry should not have put my .02 in on this one since everyone knows where I stand.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

earthkitty said:


> So let's assume for the sake of argument that it is a safety thing. Why not have polled/disbudded shows AND horned shows? That way if you are worried about little Timmy getting a horn to the face you can let him show LaManchas or something, while my kids are in a different ring showing intact Nubians.


That might work. Have goats without horns show during the fair and horned goats show a week later when there wouldn't be that "worry". I'm thinking that the concern (real or imagined) is for th whole time they are on the fair grounds.

I had a quiet Work Horse stallion and the fair board wouldn't let my son use him in Jr Showmanship. Imagine that? He was always a well behaved 2000 pound stallion.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

coso said:


> This is what I mean by it is about the GREAT HORN DEBATE. Sorry should not have put my .02 in on this one since everyone knows where I stand.


No, see that is where the issue is. You are absolutely allowed to have an opinion, and to keep your kids safe by only allowing them to show with polled animals. 

But why am I not allowed to keep my animals intact and let my kids and others show their horned NDs and Nubians?

I am not debating whether or not you should disbud, or that you are wrong for doing so, but you can't say in general it is for safety reasons, because every other group of goats is allowed to be horned.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

earthkitty said:


> Oh bull pucky. Every other breed is allowed horns, just not dairy.


Actually, since you have dairy goats with horns, you must have noticed that their horns grow differently. A 5 month old Boer has horns that are already curving back (horn shape is one of the things they are judged on, and this is why) while your 5 month old dairies have spikes that go straight up.

Check out this breeder page. http://www.circle3ranch.net/Pages/Content/ForSale.asp?pid=6&f=B&fbid=1
See how they curve back at a very young age and short length? That IS, in fact, safer, both for the animal and for the handler, then the upward horns of a dairy goat. 
And again, that is why all breeds shown with horns are bred for that trait. 

Also, the reasoning behind disbudded Boer goats not being show-able. I was told by several breeders and judges (and this is hearsay, I have no personal experience) that the upward horns are dominant and a give-away that the animal has some dairy in it's pedigree and is not pure.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

haypoint said:


> That might work. Have goats without horns show during the fair and horned goats show a week later when there wouldn't be that "worry". I'm thinking that the concern (real or imagined) is for th whole time they are on the fair grounds.


I still don't get it. ONLY dairy goats are dealt with in this way. Why isn't everyone freaked out about the liability for other groups of horned goats?

And honestly, you go to the fair and there are huge horses, and little kids riding them and being around other animals that are strangers to them, and no one freaks out.

There are GIANT horned cattle just walking the hallways.

And yet, some tiny little Nigerian Dwarf must be dehorned because she might hurt someone.

I just think that there is power in numbers, and for those of us who think all kids and their goats should be treated fairly, we can get this policy changed. But only if we speak out about it, and demand change.

For those of you who don't care, cool, don't write a letter.


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## TriWinkle (Oct 2, 2011)

You can have horned goats if you want. Just can't show them around my kids.

You can also smoke cigarettes if you want. Just not around my kids.

Wanna do drugs? Go ahead, but guess what...not around my kids...

In fact you can do anything you want to that you don't consider dangerous, but, if I believe it is, then you can't do it around my kids...Because you don't see the harm in it, doesn't mean there's not...

Want to show your goats with horns? Start your own show and have at it.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

earthkitty said:


> I still don't get it. ONLY dairy goats are dealt with in this way. Why isn't everyone freaked out about the liability for other groups of horned goats?
> 
> And honestly, you go to the fair and there are huge horses, and little kids riding them and being around other animals that are strangers to them, and no one freaks out.
> 
> ...


To be fair, the attitude is sometimes about horns and goats in general. We had to fight hard to get my DD's boers in the fair with horns. Our local guy in charge was convinced that all goats with horns are aggressive. One time they let a kid bring a BUCK (who does THAT?) who had horns. The goat BIT some kid, however it was the horns that made him aggressive. ????!!! ound:

My DD is allowed to have horns on her boer, but we have to nip the ends off.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

TriWinkle said:


> You can have horned goats if you want. Just can't show them around my kids.
> 
> You can also smoke cigarettes if you want. Just not around my kids.
> 
> ...



By that same logic, we should pull all their teeth and cut off their hooves. Why should my kids be at risk from your goats' teeth?


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

I do understand where you are coming from earthkitty. But, I don't think it's gonna change, and I say that with a heavy heart. We have a horned meat herd..never one problem with us or any other animals getting hooked by them. We also have HORNED Dexter cattle..so I do understand.

I'm sure a lot of Otter's last post is true to the point. I don't think you have many options. Your horned milk girls and boys are no less well bred and worthy..they are just "horn discriminated". But as in all things..you either have to be mad at yourself for going against what you believe in..or get mad at others for forcing you into a spot like you're in. Neither works very well. 

For us, we just stand my our horned critters. And yes, it does sometimes cost us in a sale.

I'm gonna have a problem with the milk kids that are due in March. Well bred girls that have been dehorned..having kids..I don't disbud. So, I know going in that unless someone wants them young..my kids will be going to the sale barn for meat. 

Take care and don't beat your head against the wall..the wall will win.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I am in the NO HORNS camp. Safety for me and those who visit here. I don't show.


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## Drewusa81 (Dec 15, 2007)

It's a safety issue like others here have posted. Not only for the other people showing, but for their goats as well. I used to hate disbudding. Now after doing it for 6 years and probably over 100 kids it no longer bothers me. I just look at it as part of having goats and it's something that I believe that if I am going to have them, I need to do for not only my safety but theirs too. 

I don't think I would want to show my goats with horned does in the same ring. The reason being, if for some reason we were doing a side by side line, and a horned doe just felt like being pushy (you know how goats can get) and nailed my doe in the side something bad could happen. Is it likely? No, but it could happen and if it did I would feel much better having a dis-budded doe hit my doe then one with horns. 

The first year I showed there were some boer goats with horns (shown in a seperate show) housed in the row behind me. All week at the fair they kept getting their head stuck in their hay feeder. Random people would come up to me and tell me the goats were stuck so I would go over, climb in the pen and pull them out. Just seemed like something I was glad I personally didn't need to worry about happening with my animals. I have no problem if you want to keep horns on your goats, I just feel that if you want to show them, they should be shown seperatly from dis-budded animals.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

I could be wrong here..but I think earth kitty and I are not pro horns because we don't want to learn to disbud. I think we are pro horns because we believe that that is the way they were intended to be. There is a difference. 

A horned animal going crazy in line and goring the next goat or the kid holding it..MIGHT happen.? If it did..it would be more than a horn problem..it would be a temperament problem and in that case would hurt someone with or without horns. 

I guess in order to understand earth kitty's predicament, you would have to imagine wanting to show your dehorned animals and being told 'NO' because they are not intact. You would feel bad and frustrated. That's all this is. Kitty is feeling like the odd man out and no one likes that feeling.


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## Drewusa81 (Dec 15, 2007)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> I could be wrong here..but I think earth kitty and I are not pro horns because we don't want to learn to disbud. I think we are pro horns because we believe that that is the way they were intended to be. There is a difference.
> 
> A horned animal going crazy in line and goring the next goat or the kid holding it..MIGHT happen.? If it did..it would be more than a horn problem..it would be a temperament problem and in that case would hurt someone with or without horns.
> 
> I guess in order to understand earth kitty's predicament, you would have to imagine wanting to show your dehorned animals and being told 'NO' because they are not intact. You would feel bad and frustrated. That's all this is. Kitty is feeling like the odd man out and no one likes that feeling.


I understand what your saying about being frustrated. That's why I said I have no problem with horned animals being allowed to be shown seperatley, that way everyone could be happy.

Like I said, it's not likely for a horned animal goring another goat, or worse a child, while showing but it could happen. And yes, it would be a tempermant problem and someone could get hurt regardless if the goat had horns but there would be a zero percent chance of someone being gored if there were only hornless animals in the ring.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Sometimes having a history of coaching debate is NOT a good thing. It's difficult to remain quiet. I'm writing this with a mental tone of calm thoughtfulness. Please read it with that in mind. :nice:

Just debating here.....

You *do* have a choice, and you *made* a choice. You choose not to disbud. You are aware of the rules of all the goat registries, and you still made that choice.

Trying to change the status quo is VERY difficult, especially when history (of the registries) and the safety factors are against you. What do you think are your chances to succeed?

On safety: I don't think anyone is assuming a child in the show ring will be "gored." "Gored" is an inflammatory word, and it distracts for the real issue. It's the risk to eyes and udders that are more realistic. There is at least one goat owner on this board that had a doe's udder ruined by a goat with horns before she eliminated all horns from her herd. 

If you are feeling "odd man out," then that's an appropriate response.  Wanting horns on dairy goats *is* the "odd man out" position. That's simply a fact and the current reality. You can fight it if you want, but when fighting reality, you will lose. 100% of the time.

That said, if you are so passionate about horns, then you can now choose to spend the time, energy, emotions, computer time, and postage to mount a massive campaign to change the rules. However, please evaluate the possibility of success and decide if this is a battle worth fighting. Are you really wanting to fight for a rule change at the expense of your family, garden, job, free time, and serenity? I've learned to pick my battles. 

That's it. End debate mode.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

The big safety factors mentioned are eyes and udders. Are these really significant factors in a show ring? Honest question as I don't show.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I&#8217;m not a goat expert. I do, however, have lots of experience with 4H fairs, showing of livestock and liability issues.
In a meat goat&#8217;s lifetime, the owner may have very little contact with their goat. In a milk goat&#8217;s lifetime, the owner spends considerable time with their goat. Temperament and horns will not be as big an issue with a meat goat as a milk goat. That could be a rational reason for the general notion against horned milk breeds. Perhaps the shape and direction are major factors, too.
As far as liability, you are correct that there is only a slightly greater chance for a child&#8217;s injury during the brief show times, with a horned animal. But several days prior to and several days after the show, 4H animals are exposed to the public, young and old. That greatly expands the risk exposure. In a Court room, the Fair Board may someday have to answer the question, &#8220;What steps did you take to prevent such an injury to occur?&#8221; 
Many years ago, I conferred with a Percheron Horse Showman. I complained about the oversized shoes and use of plastic body filler on the hooves. He gave me some wise advice, that I&#8217;ll never forget, &#8220; If you are going to show, you have to be willing to do whatever it takes to win.&#8221; I wasn&#8217;t willing to do that and I stopped showing horses. Perhaps you have made choices that impact future opportunities. You are free to continue your raising of horned milk goats and not show them, you can step into line with the thousands of milk goat owners across the land that disbud their milk goats, or you can launch a campaign against your local fair board. 
When someone starts out with, &#8220; Not to start that old argument, but&#8230;.&#8221; I think of, &#8220; Well, not to hurt your feelings, but&#8230;.&#8221; Or &#8220;I wouldn&#8217;t dream of disagreeing with you, but&#8230;.&#8221; 
Sound like the horn or no horns has become a bit of a dead horse. The fight is with the Fair Board.


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

Like others have already said my worry is udders. I see my girls all the time push the "weaker" ones out of the way by picking them up from under them. Me personally I didn't care either way if they had horns or not until one of my does got hurt by another one. After that day I will not own a goat here that is not disbud. We have a forum member who had to put down a buckling (I believe it was a buckling) due to one horned goat getting scared from a wild fire. I give vaccines to them to warn off illness and I personally think this is just another way to keep my goats safe. All our goats born here will be unless the buyer asks before hand. 

Its a personal choice in what you want done but like all choices they may limit you in what you can do. I don't see ADGA changing the rules but good luck with your letter writing.


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## punchiepal (Oct 11, 2008)

When we started out dh wanted the goats to be "natural." Neither of us had a problem being around horned animals. After I nearly lost an eye to a buckling looking for me to help him and dh saving a few of them from getting their heads stuck, we decided disbudding was safer for our farm.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

I'm gonna repeat my question, are there significant safety risks in a show environment? I can understand why people would have/not have them at home but why would earthkitty's horned goats be risk to other people at a show?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I think that has been addressed above. Post #20 discusses other issues with horns and skims the point that non-goat folks will encounter goats in pens at the show.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

thermopkt said:


> I'm gonna repeat my question, are there significant safety risks in a show environment? I can understand why people would have/not have them at home but why would earthkitty's horned goats be risk to other people at a show?


Because at most shows, you can't just show up for your class, leave the ring and go home. Your animal has to stay on the grounds for the length of the show, anywhere from a day to a week. In a totally new, chaotic environment filled with strange people and animals. There's a lot more opportunity for accidents.
And yes, the animals should be trained and of good temperament - but as I tell my kids, we call it an accident because no one _meant_ for it to happen.

In the show ring itself - should be no risk. Except for 2 things. People being people, at the local showing level, there's nothing preventing someone dragging some wild as a march hare yearling out of the back pasture and showing up. Happens every year at every county fair I've ever been to.
Last year, one of the poor, unhandled things was getting the required ear tag, the handler got distracted by being bumped by the goat behind her (they do the tags right in the barn, before the fair part is open, but still plenty busy there) involuntarily loosened her grip for a split second and that goat shot out of there - leaving half her ear behind and running scared over half the fair ground before she was cornered and caught.
It happens.
And we're talking about junior showing. Have you seen it? Little kids down to all of 4 years old showing all kinds of goats. Wicked cute. One of those kids manages to either fall over or let go of the lead at every single show and fair I've ever been to for 15 years.
If what they're tripping over is that little yearling Nigie with their straight up spikes ... takes all the cute out of it.




Sherry in Iowa said:


> I'm gonna have a problem with the milk kids that are due in March. Well bred girls that have been dehorned..having kids..I don't disbud. So, I know going in that unless someone wants them young..my kids will be *going to the sale barn* for meat.


At the risk of thread drift (my apologies in advance :lookout please do your kids a favor and take them to the processor. 
I would never in a million years take a well-bred dairy doeling to the sale barn. God forbid she gets bought up by someone who wants a brush goat and breeds her.
I have saved a well-bred, high producing goat who, by unhappy twist of fate, ended up a brush goat and bred. I know I've told the story of her mastitis that was so bad she got gangrene. Four times a day, my friend and I tied her down, gave her shots and then massaged cold serum from the one teat and cold black blood and pus from the other.
We actually celebrated the day the blood was red and warm. The side that we got the cold serum out of sloughed off. Have you ever seen a huge hunk of flesh rot right off a living creature's body?

If you feel it's cruel to disbud, that's fine. Doesn't bother me any. If you butcher goats, that's fine too. But as cruel as you feel it is to disbud, I feel it is far, _far_ crueler to take a highly bred animal and put it where people are almost certain to be ignorant of it's care, resulting in slow, lingering death.
Stepping down :soap:


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## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

Wait, you are saying adults can show but kids cannot if the goat has horns? Then that sounds more like a safety and liability issue. 
They should require those yellow baseballs to be taped onto the horns during the whole time the animal is on the show property. 

I personally would never buy a horned animal, to protect my other animals, people and to keep it from getting caught.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

This is really a duel question.

#1 Will or should they allow horned goats at sanctioned dairy shows. Not for me to decide. It's their show their rules. We all know the "rules".

#2 The appeals about safety or "natural" has nothing to do with it.


On a side note. If your dairy goats are aggressive at all. Like hitting each other or battling. (except boys at the peak of rut and this also only applies to general butting for dominance not body blows. If you watch there is a difference. The boys battle but kinda wait a second to see if the other guy is ready. ) Goats even the biggest don't just willy nilly hit or sucker punch. Butting heads has a purpose. It's for establishing dominance once established it should stop. Cull, if the goat can't get along with others. That isn't acceptable behavior with or without horns. It's my belief disbudding can be used as a crutch to keep an otherwise cull animal "safe" to be around.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

At the risk of thread drift (my apologies in advance :lookout please do your kids a favor and take them to the processor. 
I would never in a million years take a well-bred dairy doeling to the sale barn. God forbid she gets bought up by someone who wants a brush goat and breeds her.
I have saved a well-bred, high producing goat who, by unhappy twist of fate, ended up a brush goat and bred. I know I've told the story of her mastitis that was so bad she got gangrene. Four times a day, my friend and I tied her down, gave her shots and then massaged cold serum from the one teat and cold black blood and pus from the other.
We actually celebrated the day the blood was red and warm. The side that we got the cold serum out of sloughed off. Have you ever seen a huge hunk of flesh rot right off a living creature's body?

If you feel it's cruel to disbud, that's fine. Doesn't bother me any. If you butcher goats, that's fine too. But as cruel as you feel it is to disbud, I feel it is far, _far_ crueler to take a highly bred animal and put it where people are almost certain to be ignorant of it's care, resulting in slow, lingering death.
Stepping down :soap:[/QUOTE]


Thank you very much for sharing the fate of *YOUR* goat and the misuse/abuse that she received. I don't believe I said that disbudding was "cruel". I think I said we just don't believe in doing it. 

We use a sale barn..the buyers do NOT take them home. The buyers are for meat processors. Yes, does and bucks alike go. Legally, they cannot go back to a private party's home.

Thank you for directing your concern and soap-box at me. But I assure you, hubby and I are fairly responsible people. If we live by certain "rules", we know the consequences and deal with them as responsibly as possible. We were just discussing the kids from these two combined lines. We can't sell them as milk goats (horned or dehorned) to anyone that doesn't fully comprehend what huge milkers they will be and take care of them right..not cut corners on times milked and length milked. 

Our milk girls are disbudded..that's fine with me..I didn't do it. Their kids? Hey, if someone wants well bred horned milk goats..no problem. If they want disbudded milk goats..someone else is going to have to take them off..it's that simple. If no one wants them..they are meat. Can't say it any more clearer. They will NOT be brush goats or thrown to the seven winds. We don't operate that way.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Sometimes rules are set to take the "fight" out of a situation.
In Michigan, there is a rule against all alcohol in State Parks. But everyone does it, but because it is against the rule, anytime there is some loud party, the Ranger doesn't have to argue how loud is too loud, how drunk is too drunk, etc. 

If they don't allow horned goats at all, they don't have to decide if this one is not aggressive, but this one is and that one might be, etc. Makes it easier to just not allow them than wait for an incident and then have to argue about it. Horns are a liability from the movent they enter the fair grounds until they leave.

I don't see why I can't bring box cutters on a commercial plane, I've never cut anyone.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Otter said:


> Because at most shows, you can't just show up for your class, leave the ring and go home. Your animal has to stay on the grounds for the length of the show, anywhere from a day to a week. In a totally new, chaotic environment filled with strange people and animals. There's a lot more opportunity for accidents.


Ok...now I'm confused. At the Goat Expo that I went to in Des Moines there were goats there that did have horns. They were not in the show ring but they were staying on the grounds along with the peoples other goats. Also, I didn't see any children showing goats...it was all adults. Granted I didn't see every show. But the ones I did see it was adults. I don't recall seeing many children there at all. Except the darling Jubilee!


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Minelson..I LOVE THAT JUBILEE!! Who's goat is that? He's gorgeous..his hair looks silky.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> Minelson..I LOVE THAT JUBILEE!! Who's goat is that? He's gorgeous..his hair looks silky.


I don't know whose goat that is...just a pic from my random shots.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> I do understand where you are coming from earthkitty. But, I don't think it's gonna change, and I say that with a heavy heart. We have a horned meat herd..never one problem with us or any other animals getting hooked by them. We also have HORNED Dexter cattle..so I do understand.
> 
> I'm sure a lot of Otter's last post is true to the point. I don't think you have many options. Your horned milk girls and boys are no less well bred and worthy..they are just "horn discriminated". But as in all things..you either have to be mad at yourself for going against what you believe in..or get mad at others for forcing you into a spot like you're in. Neither works very well.
> 
> ...


Not neccessarily. Some will buy them with horns. I don't disbud either and haven't had any problems selling my ND's, but then again, I don't show and the people I sell to aren't buying to show, but for the milk.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks Sonshine. I truly hope that we can find some of them a good home. You give me hope!


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

Otter said:


> In the show ring itself - should be no risk. Except for 2 things. People being people, at the local showing level, there's nothing preventing someone dragging some wild as a march hare yearling out of the back pasture and showing up. Happens every year at every county fair I've ever been to.
> Last year, one of the poor, unhandled things was getting the required ear tag, the handler got distracted by being bumped by the goat behind her (they do the tags right in the barn, before the fair part is open, but still plenty busy there) involuntarily loosened her grip for a split second and that goat shot out of there - leaving half her ear behind and running scared over half the fair ground before she was cornered and caught.
> It happens.
> And we're talking about junior showing. Have you seen it? Little kids down to all of 4 years old showing all kinds of goats. Wicked cute. One of those kids manages to either fall over or let go of the lead at every single show and fair I've ever been to for 15 years.
> If what they're tripping over is that little yearling Nigie with their straight up spikes ... takes all the cute out of it.


Ok,, two things. I have never in life been attacked with horns by a scared goat. Every freaked out goat that I have dealt with has used teeth and hooves.

Second, 4 YEAR OLDS are showing??!! That is a problem in and of itself! I can't think of any other animal that is allowed to be shown by small children. I would never let my little kid handle an animal like that. They don't know what to do with it and are not capable of controlling it. That is borderline animal abuse. If you take an animal into a strange situation, you owe it the ability to control it and keep it safe.

Where we used to live littles were allowed to 'show' but a parent was required to be on the lead line between the kid and the animal. Even that was risky in my opinion, especially with horses and cattle.


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## Mama2ws (Dec 4, 2012)

We have pee wee showmanship classes with our county fair. There are kids in diapers showing. Even showing huge pigs, now that scares me!!! As for four year olds, my four year old has practiced leading our girls around since they were taking bottles. I trust my does with my kids. Would I let her in a show ring with other people's goats, not a chance!! We are a no horn family. That's our choice and a large part of that has to do with having small children at horn level. That being said our market goats do have horns sometimes, I prefer it because its an extra handle. My littles don't go in the pen with them unattended. My ten year old is more than able to handle a horned semi tame goat. But they are boers, so their horns grow back and not straight up.

I'm with the pp's if it means that much to you then why not look into starting a horned goat show? If the tables were switched and I couldn't show my girls because they're dehorned and I wanted to show, I'd buy horned stock or find something else to show.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

I don't really have anything against disbudding. I completely understand why people do it, especially if you dry lot or have crowded conditions. There is a safety factor with other goats. What I don't understand is the safety with people issue. If a goat is people aggressive, it shouldn't be alive let alone in a public venue such as showing. Horns or no horns. Goats without horns have just as much capacity to maim people as horned goats. The only thing I can see is it does protect people against their own carelessness. If you bend over a goats head and get poked, well, you really shouldn't have been doing that anyway. Even without horns that same thing could get you a broken nose or teeth.

The shows seem to ban horned goats because they'll be a danger to people and other goats. I think the danger to other goats is a little far fetched in a show situation and the only danger to people is again, their own carelessness. By that logic, goats should have their teeth pulled or be muzzled during a show. They should also have to have their hooves well wrapped and padded and have their heads constrained in such a way that they can't hit anybody, accidentally or on purpose, with their heads. Sounds riduculous doesn't it?

I have been around goats with horns, many of them, for many years. The dangers to people from socialized goats are greatly over exaggerated.


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

To address the issue of the show itself. You can have Pee-wee showmanship, Jr. Showmanship and Sr. Showmanship. This goes all the way up to age 21. Part of the showmanship is that the judge ask you to trade goats with someone else, or generally the first one in line goes to the end and holds that goat and everyone moves up a notch and shows some one elses goat. This can show you how well your goat has been trained, and also how the showman handles him/herself with a different goat. So there is a risk there. Unless you do away with showmanship. Or like stated before have two different shows, which I do not see that happening because you have trouble sanctioning shows right now number wise. Plus your cost would double for the sanctions also.


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

Like I said in my earlier post at first I didn't care if we had horns or not. So saying that we have a few that have horns (Monkey grade LaMancha, and a few Boers.) I would love to have a round bale of hay with a cattle panel to keep them off, I can't because of the horn goats. Also Pepsi (a Boer) is one of the sweetest girls around. Would never hurt a human (Still dont trust her though... shes an animal) but she is flaky really really flaky and she will get spooked by something and throw that head around when she takes off running. I have bruises up and down my legs all the time because she runs into me with the horns. She doesn't mean to but like I said she is flaky and will run not think. 

Mom had a buckling that stuck his head through the fence while she was in town and he choked to death. Everyone has their own opinion on horns but what it comes down to if you wanna show you are going to either have to go with a non dairy breed, start your own show, or disbud.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Sherry, I'm sorry you took a cautionary tale as a personal rebuke. I didn't mean it that way. I brought it up because it's something that people honestly don't consider.
The reason I posted it on the thread is for_ everyone_ who reads (including the lurkers) to think about.
I've never heard of a sale barn where it is illegal for buyers to take animals home. Here, we have a processing center where you bring goats and sheep, they are weighed and graded and you're paid by weight and grade. They are butchered right there. They come off your truck, over a scale, into a pen, and then on through the slaughter facility. But even there, the workers will occasionally pull out a quality animal out of a pen and buy it from the center for their own herd. It's _not _illegal. The only way I can know with 100% accuracy that they are going for meat is if I make the arrangements through a processor myself. THEN it is illegal for them to substitute one animal for another, I need to get my own back.

I'm guessing the heavy emphasis on "your" means you think I got her into that state? As I said, I've told the story before, she locked eyes with my friend at the sale barn, and my friend just had to save her. She pulled into the driveway in tears and told me she bought a dying goat but she couldn't just _leave_ her there.



thermopkt said:


> Ok,, two things. I have never in life been attacked with horns by a scared goat.


She didn't attack anyone. She just bolted in a blind panic, went careening through the barn and out into the fair grounds. You had asked about significant risks at a show environment. A scared animal getting loose is a significant risk. If it had happened while the fair was open, I can bet that a lot of "helpful" folks would have started chasing the poor little thing, and when one of them hurt themselves tackling her - who is liable? The fair ground actually has to worry about things like that.



thermopkt said:


> Second, 4 YEAR OLDS are showing??!! That is a problem in and of itself!


It's the whole point of the Cloverbuds program (4H for the under-8 kids) There are rules on what animals they are allowed to show, which vary by county and fairground. I, personally, was horrified to see a teeny little 5 year old showing a 300 pound pig, but there were always 2 adults in the area with her and the pig, in the aisles and barn as well as the arena



thermopkt said:


> What I don't understand is the safety with people issue.
> The dangers to people from socialized goats are greatly over exaggerated.


For one, there is no guarantee of the goats being socialized at the lower levels of showing. And they don't have to "attack" they just have to be scared and run off and crash into someone. Bruises _might_ be sued over, punctures *will* be sued over.

The breeds that show with horns, it is very hard to get punctured with those horns. They sweep back. They are bred to sweep back, and if they don't sweep back, it is a DQ
The horns of young, and some old, dairy goats go straight up. If they lower their heads to butt (or again, even dash off in a panic) they are not hitting you with a broad front of horn. They are impaling you with those straight spikes.

As far as them hurting each other, yes, when goats get into a ramming match, they watch each other, and both ram at once, horn to horn. When a doe decides to shove another doe out of her way - which is far, far more likely in a crowded show area, and every show for dogs, livestock, horses, anything, has an area where things bottleneck - then she puts her head in the other goat's side and shoves. And upright dairy horns can, will and have, done significant damage in that situation.

When we concentrate on the fact that other types of goats show with horns, we do have to take into account that they have a totally different horn shape. If you wanted to breed dairy goats with backward sweeping horns - you might get somewhere then.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Hey Otter..I don't have a problem with horned OR dehorned goats..love em all. This got off track of the original question..which was about showing the horned goats.

Yes, I probably did take it personal since my name was on it.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

Otter said:


> She didn't attack anyone. She just bolted in a blind panic, went careening through the barn and out into the fair grounds. You had asked about significant risks at a show environment. A scared animal getting loose is a significant risk. If it had happened while the fair was open, I can bet that a lot of "helpful" folks would have started chasing the poor little thing, and when one of them hurt themselves tackling her - who is liable? The fair ground actually has to worry about things like that.
> 
> *In the situation you describe, the horns are not significant.*
> 
> ...


I apologize for the red stuff, I don't know how to split up the quote nicely like you did with mine.

The issues you keep bringing up have to do with protecting people from their own mistakes/stupidity. I have issues with that attitude no matter what arena we are talking about. Also I think people see goats with horns and think evil, scary attack animal. Therefore they freak out and create situations that would never happen if they stopped to think about it.

Repeat, I totally understand why people disbud! I just don't see a sensible, logical reason why horned goats can't show. And why can't they be appraised? Makes no sense. I know that's the way it is and I know it won't change, too much horn phobia. But it still isn't logical or sensible.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Maybe if they are afraid of human kids getting hurt the rule could be that they can only show hornless goats. ??? just a thought  
I wonder what the judges thoughts are on this subject. 
It's amazing to me that this would be a safety issue when there are horse shows all over the place. Talk about dangerous. And horses in parades??? we have all heard and seen the horror stories.

ETA: Sorry earth kitty, I see now in your op that you are wishing that children could show horned goats so only letting adults show horned wouldn't help.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> Hey Otter..I don't have a problem with horned OR dehorned goats..love em all.


 Me too. And again, I'm sorry if that seemed directed right at you, it's just that it's that time of year and as it's a hot spot for me, I wanted people to think of it.

OK, folks, do not google goat horns with kids in the room. :teehee:

Thermopkt, you had said, I have never seen these straight horned goats that you keep talking about 
Here are random pictures of horned dairy goats off the internet. These were the first 2 adult horned dairy goats that came up;
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...ARUZzyGMGSrAGX2YDgBQ&ved=0CEAQ9QEwAw&dur=2171
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...tart=47&ndsp=25&tx=112&ty=79&biw=1440&bih=745

If you compare this to the image of the horned goat that Minelson had taken, you can see that this is an extreme difference.
And I found pictures of adults because it really does take at least a year or two for dairy horns to turn back even that much. 

If my herd queen had horns like this, and decided to shove at another goat the way she does 50 times a day, which I have come to think of as the goaty equivalent of pushing past someone - there's be blood.
If she did it with the horns of any Boer goat I've ever seen, there wouldn't.
Same (not mean, not wild, just dominant) goat, same head motion, hugely different result.

I won't argue about whether or not a person can be gored by accident, by an animal who was aiming at another animal, by a scared animal simply trying to get away or any of it, any more then I'd argue about whether or not lightening can strike someone or swimmers can drown.
It _has_ happened, all you can argue over is probabilities. And to the folks getting injured or sued, that _one_ time was plenty.

As far as the whole show thing, I don't make this stuff up, I just told you what I've been told and what I've seen. Go to some shows and see for yourself. If anything in life could be perfect and predictable, you would be 100% right. But things happen, so we have to stack the odds in our favor, esp fairgrounds and places who WILL have ignorant people coming around.  I'm not happy human nature is what it is either, but I can't change it so I just have to work around it.

I can not think of one logical reason that horned dairy goats can not be appraised and think that it is ridiculous that that is so.


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

I think women should be able to be priests and I'm pro choice but to me it's ok if the Catholics want to be anti abortion and relegate women to being nuns. It's their club.

Same with ADGA. 

I always wanted goats with horns but my first 2 were polled and then when I had one I realize I didn't really want horns. 

I do think it's cool that ADGA allows horns to be registered because if you saved a goat from somebody who didn't want to put forth the effort to disbud it then that blood would be lost otherwise.

I think it's a good idea for shows for them to be disbudded though.

However ADGA is sort of a democracy and if enough people contacted their directors or ran for office they could get the policy changed.

I'm guessing that the majority who would respond when questioned about it though would vote to keep it as is.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

Don't you hate it when you type out a long reply and then hit the wrong button and lose it? Arrrrrgggggggggggggghhh!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

Otter said:


> I won't argue about whether or not a person can be gored by accident, by an animal who was aiming at another animal, by a scared animal simply trying to get away or any of it, any more then I'd argue about whether or not lightening can strike someone or swimmers can drown.


The main reason that turned me off to it was not so much that I was worried about jousting goats goring me accidentally, as it was the one horned goat I had when I would cut her feet the tip of her horns were very close to my eye sockets when I would clip her feet or vaccinate her and she'd jerk her head up and that tip would sip past my eye.:happy2:


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Me too. And again, I'm sorry if that seemed directed right at you, it's just that it's that time of year and as it's a hot spot for me, I wanted people to think of it .


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

No problem Otter! I'd almost bet that if we were sitting on my porch with a beer..we'd probably find out that we think alike on more stuff than not when it comes to goats!:buds:


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Otter said:


> Actually, since you have dairy goats with horns, you must have noticed that their horns grow differently. A 5 month old Boer has horns that are already curving back (horn shape is one of the things they are judged on, and this is why) while your 5 month old dairies have spikes that go straight up.
> 
> Check out this breeder page. http://www.circle3ranch.net/Pages/Content/ForSale.asp?pid=6&f=B&fbid=1
> See how they curve back at a very young age and short length? That IS, in fact, safer, both for the animal and for the handler, then the upward horns of a dairy goat.
> ...



~smiles~ I must beg to disagree.

Cashmere goats are shown with horns, as well. 










We tend to be dairy or Boer centric around here, but there are ALL sorts of goats out there that are shown, and kept....and most of them have horns.

How about this PB Spanish?









~grinz~ I saw a gorgeous cashmere some years ago with these spiral horns that went STRAIGHT up....I thought he was an antelope at first.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Maybe that is why there were goats with horns at the Goat Expo...There were fiber goats and meat goats there. But the Pygmy goats were disbudded in the show ring. So that doesn't make sense either.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

If horns are dangerous for 4-H'ers showing goats, why aren't they dangerous for kids showing cattle?










Seems that if you want to keep your kids "safe" from horns, you wouldn't let them go to ANY 4-H or FFA even, right? Because, well, ummm, there could be horns. All over the place, in fact. If you are going to show livestock, or do the 4-H/FFA thing, you cannot AVOID having your child possibly come in contact with horns.

Proud girl with her blue-ribbon winning HORNED cow and calf:










Or this little boy with his cow at the show:










Awwwww! Isn't she adorable with her winner's belt buckle and her steer?










Very few shows are ONLY dairy goats. Most shows are multi-breed, or even multi-species. Therefore, the chances of your kids coming across horns...sometimes great, big, scary horns, if they show anything, including chickens, is pretty high.

People say it is a safety issue or a liability issue, but that is only true if it is done across the board. If a show disallows horned dairy goats, but allows horned Boer goats, horned Angora goats, horned Cashmere goats, horned Spanish goats, horned cattle, yadda, yadda, yadda...then it is NOT a safety and/or liability issue. If a show disallows horned goats period, but allows horned cattle, then it STILL is not a safety/liability issue. KWIM?

******************************************

Now, I wanted to make absolutely SURE, since I haven't done it yet, so I called the ADGA, and I talked to Penny.

Me: "Quick question on Linear Appraisal: Can a horned goat be linearly appraised?"

Penny: "Yes."

Me: "Thank you so very much."

I have it straight from the ADGA. horned do NOT disqualify a goat from being LA'd.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

I am for horns. 
I have seen too many dis buddings gone wrong. The buck I have now was dis budding before I got him and I am going to have to have him dehorned due too large scurs growing back that will go in to his skull. A shame too he would have been a gorgeous horned boy.

dehorning takes away a cooling mechanism and down here we need all the *cooling *mechanisms we can get.

AND I want them to be able to knock the  out of dog or coyote if need be.

it is unfair to keep a natural goat from competing because other handlers may not be able to truly handle a goat. if they can't then THEY shouldn't be handling/showing.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Otter said:


> Me too. And again, I'm sorry if that seemed directed right at you, it's just that it's that time of year and as it's a hot spot for me, I wanted people to think of it.
> 
> OK, folks, do not google goat horns with kids in the room. :teehee:
> 
> ...


Those pictures show a goat not more than 18 months, If they get good browse and mineral... 12 months at most.

Nature provides in my opinion.
Kids and very young have point horns. They can whack a big boy and drive him away keeping his "advances" at bay. 
Then they curve back as they age and get bigger.
Males tend to go back first at around a year. Then the girls at 1 1/2 years or so. Some as you suggest take a full 2 years. But they are the smallish ones.
Big males... horns are flat forward/point back or to the side.
Girls roll back and point back at the ground.

Horns are also IMHO the best way to see how a goat has been cared for. If they are consistent and even it means that they always get good feed. If year rings are visible or it goes thick/thin/think. Feed hasn't been plentiful or proper. Worse it could mean a mineral deficiency.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

If goats can be LA'd with horns, I'm glad I was wrong.  I would've sworn I read that somewhere, that they must be disbudded for LA, and I thought it was crazy. But allowing horns for LA is so reasonable. Excellent! I'd rather have LA scores on critters than show wins.


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## Drewusa81 (Dec 15, 2007)

thermopkt said:


> Sorry but I can't agree that a goat without horns has just as much capacity to maim people as a goat with horns. A disbudded animal is not going to poke you in the eye accidently or worse. I have bent over my goats heads all the time. Various reasons being to pick up something I dropped, to clean out the hay manger, to grab a water bucket etc. You really believe that I shouldn't be doing that in the first place? It happens probalby almost daily but I don't even think about it because my goats are all disbudded and I don't have to worry if bending over their heads could possibly hurt me. For me it's a safety issue and honestly I personally think goats look better without horns. Is disbudding fun? Not at all but I do it because I'd rather go through a quick not so fun procedure then deal with the potential for an accident that could be even more emotionally tolling then a proper disbudding job.


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

CaliannG said:


> ~smiles~ I must beg to disagree.
> 
> Cashmere goats are shown with horns, as well.
> 
> ...


 
love those horns!


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

LOL..any head can give ya a fat lip if you're not watching what you're doin'. My best pal Hubby (yellow lab) gave me a good one..I bent over him while he moved up. I think anything can hurt ya .. ya just try to be careful. If I had a dollar for every bump, bruise, knot, lump and cut from an animal..I wouldn't care what price hay was!

I try to understand people that are afraid of horns. Praise God..I can honestly say that hubby and I have yet to be gouged, slapped or in any other way injured by them. It could happen..we have a lot of horned animals of all sizes here. But, we danged sure have been tromped on by the animals.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

And the great goat horned debate has ensued... gre:gre:gre:


[YOUTUBE]0OLshFj0J9w[/YOUTUBE]


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Hollowdweller said:


> love those horns!


Horns can be neat! Here is a picture of the different classes of horns:










a. is the most common type found in dairy goats, and shows that a lot of their genetics comes from the Alpine and North African Ibex. They are ibex-type horns.

b. is the Spanish Goat. That horn configuration is actually particular to them, and is one of the reasons why Spanish goats have to have horns...it is part of what they are judge upon to determine purity.

c. is the Eastern Tur type of horns, which are swept back. You see these in Boers and Angoras a lot.

d. is my favorite. The Markhor type horns. The Markhor is also an ancestor of our domestic goats, and you sometimes see these spiral style horns crop up. You actually see this type more in Cashmere and other Indian and Middle Eastern type breeds.

e. is the Bezoar type horns. The Bezoar is nearly extinct, but its genetics live on in the occasional Alpine or Saanen with these kinds of horns.

~smiles~ It is not only the genetics and history....you can learn SO MUCH about individual goats by looking at their horns. The horns record their history and health like rings on a tree. They are also terrific to find out any management issues that you may have in your herd. Not enough protein in the diet? It will show in the horns. Poor diet, or poor minerals? It is all recorded right there in the horns. They are like a goat autobiography.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

VERY interesting! I think I need to confess something :ashamed: I think I have a horn fetish..yes, it's true. PLEASE take mercy and don't post anymore pics of them :grit:

No, wait..keep them coming..I can take it!:


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Just for you, Sherry!










I have _fantasies_ about a fiber/dairy goat with horns like these. When I see that herd in my dreams, they have long, spiral, silky white hair, lovely, full udders, spiralled horns like these, and sky blue eyes.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I don't know if I would want to carry that load on my head! LOL! And a baby dancing on me to boot!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Rules at shows are not made for the run of the mill situation- they are made for "he would never hurt a fly-my daughter knows how to handle-nothing has ever gone wrong" person who is always sure. And dreadfully surpirsed at being wrong. For the "can I pet that little horsie" city person. For the aisle sitter who had to go to the bathroom.
I imagine that a lot of places are not set up to keep horned goats safe. I have seen animals with heads caught under the dividers or through the bars. I have had horned goats at home with a head through something they could not get out of and I could not figure out how to get them free either. I have seen animals loose. 
Probably fair ground insurance has something to do with it too. As does the sheer number of animals to be housed. Liability is a big deal for shows. It resulted in many apparently silly rules at a number of events I have attended. 
If the organization wants this, they are the person accepting responsibility and have the right to make the rules.
And lastly, I have had at least one goat who was frankly born dangerous and knew exactly where the end of his horns were. I would make the choice not to have him around others but I'm not sure that I could trust other people to be as smart as I am.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

I think this guy has lived a long and healthy life:


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## GoatJunkie (Dec 26, 2012)

It's hard for me to imagine being forced to disbud my animal in order to show if I did not want to disbud and showing mattered. I've not seen the long hotned steer someone mentioned, but I have seen large dairy and meat cows be unruly in fair barns with spectaters nearby. I believe they would cause more damage, and more harm, than any goat is capable of causing.

With that said, I am a huge fan of disbudding. I have seen does picked up off the ground by a goat with horns, very frequently targeting the udder. I have seen young meat goats hold their heads in a position that caused their horns to stick straight out, despite the fact that they curve later in life. I prefer handling disbudded goats. My personal choice..... but I have to say I AM AN EVEN BIGGER FAN of everyone having the right to chose, and there being no discrimination in the show ring.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

CaliannG said:


> I think this guy has lived a long and healthy life:


ok...that gives me a headache and reminds me of women who have way too long fingernails. I love horns ... but that is insane. He can't be comfortable :help:


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## GoatJunkie (Dec 26, 2012)

:gossip: (And in light of all the beauties above, I think I have a horn fetish too!)


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

LOL GoatJunkie!

Caliann..those pics are awesome!!!!!!!! What kind is that last one?!?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Hey, I don't know why everyone is arguing with _me_, I don't make this up.
I was just trying to answer a question.

Call up your local fair ground. At mine, you won't see steers with horns like in those pictures (actually, I've only ever seen steers with horns at specialty shows and never at a mixed venue or county fair, but I haven't been everywhere)
The only animals you will see with horns at my local fair ground are Boer goats, and _*only*_ because the horns are part of the breed standard and because the owners stay on the grounds to supervise them.

So instead of beating it to death here, call up the fairgrounds and then their insurance agents and ream out them.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

A very good number of pygmy goats are left with horns on. We had three with horns. Never got injured by them and neither did the kids. Two had a nice full sets, never got caught in the cattle panels or anything. The other one had one full horn and one horn that was gimped due to a botched attempt at chemical disbudding. He did get his funky scur-like horn caught on the fence. One of the ones with horns was flighty and stupid. But I never feared trying to catch him. 

I don't know, maybe after being stepped on and bit by horses over the years, the goat horns just weren't scary. 

Here was Mojo, with his one good horn and his one gimpy horn. Its hard to see in the pic, but his kind of horn, curled back at the top edge and it was that that got stuck on the fence.










This was flighty, crazy Socks. 










That said, I think whether you leave horns on or not, really should be a personal choice and not something you should HAVE to do in order to show.


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## GoatJunkie (Dec 26, 2012)

I keep thinking about what someone said about horns showing signs of ill health, deficiencies and such.... I have no doubt this is true, but I think warning signs show up much earlier in their eyes, their coats, their potty, their gums, and their daily dispositions.... I should think these clues capable of preventing anything becoming a permanent mar in the horns... Upon buying a goat with horns it could come in handy to have this undeniable health history available. That was an interesting addition to the conversation, whoever posted that, thanks!

But, for the record, I'm not changing sides. Though I have great appreciation for horns like the ones posted, I still prefer disbudded goats *for me*. However, I am glad not everyone feels this way.....


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> LOL GoatJunkie!
> 
> Caliann..those pics are awesome!!!!!!!! What kind is that last one?!?



Do you realize how many times I had to use Google Translate to answer that question, while I chased down the origin of that picture? 

The answer is: he is a Malaguena goat, a dairy goat native to Spain that is similar in appearance to our Alpines, but has a year-round breeding season.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

GoatJunkie said:


> ......but I think warning signs show up much earlier in their eyes, their coats, their potty, their gums, and their daily dispositions.... I should think these clues capable of preventing anything becoming a permanent mar in the horns... .


Actually, it depends.

People ask about goat kids with flakey horns here pretty often, and most often get the answer, "It's normal, don't worry about it."

The LONG answer is, "Your young goat s going through a growth spurt, and is using up every bit of protein s/he is consuming for bone growth, and therefore doesn't have any left over for horn development. You'd do well to increase this goat's protein for the next 3 weeks."

In young kids, the ONLY sign of not enough protein during growth spurts and development is......flaky horns. Go figure.

But in adult does, flaking horns mean something entirely different: calcium deficiency. How many people are crying for help with a down doe at kidding, whose labor had stopped due to hypocalcemia...of a newly fresh doe down with milk fever, but they didn't know because there are very few signs for calcium deficiency BESIDES stopped labor, down does, and dying does....when you have to get out the big guns and inject CMPK to save them. If only you could do a blood test to see calcium levels! If there were clear signs!

Oh, but there is. If a doe has horns, and they start flaking at the tips, and those flakes are dry and brittle? She need calcium in a big way. And you will see these signs in the horns MONTHS before she is near kidding and entering the danger zone where it is an emergency.

~smiles~ In some ways, disbudding is like removing a wonderful health diagnostic tool. How would you tell if a goat is copper deficient? What if the goat was shaved absolutely bald and to the skin all over, would you still be able to tell the goat was copper deficient?

A goat's horns not only tell you what the goat may be deficient in, especially when it comes to protein, calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium, but they will tell you months before these deficiencies reach a stage where they can cause damage.

The very first thing effected by deficiencies are the horns. Before you ever see it in coat, in disposition, or in anything else, you will see it in the horns, because as soon as a goat's body realizes there is a shortage of something, the FIRST thing that body does is stop using that something for horns. So it shows up there first.


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## Crazy Farmgirl (Oct 21, 2012)

I personally find it absurd that dairy goats must be disbudded/dehorned to show!! Goats (most) by nature have horns, discriminating against them in their natural state is ridiculous! 

As for the "safety" issues:

Heads caught in fences- the use of proper fencing for goats eliminates them being able to get their head through the fence in the first place. Most fencing that is animals specific (ie cattle, horse, sheep, goat, chicken, ect) is made so that the animal it is *intended* for can be contained in the safest manner possible for that species. Many times finances dictate we use the cheapest/easyest option, which isn't always the safest one. 

Gouges, goring and punctures- For humans that is easy, proper animal handling techniques, maintaining control when leashed and remaining alert at all times when around animals is the most basic and valuable actions one can take. Knowing the animals characteristics and demeanor is a must for anyone dealing with any animal, if you unfamiliar with a specific animal then be on your toes and ready for anything. Children (especially very young up to 6 yrs) have no business showing or handling animals they cannot physically control and should never be unattended with them, for the older kids with proper handling skills can avoid most injuries. As for other members of the herd- animals who are aggressive with herdmates continually should be culled (there is no justification for keeping an unruly beast) for the others who push and head but to assert their dominance most times are not so aggressive to cause injury. However I have seen in overcrowding situations and limited feed space where animals become very aggressive toward the others, that is the fault of the owner not providing adequate space/feed;you can't condemn animals for behavior that is caused by the situation they are FORCED to live/deal with.

Aside from the above, injuries to goats/humans that happen are ACCIDENTS! And as it was pointed out earlier that is why we call them that...they are beyond our control. There is no way to prevent all injuries that may happen and that simply is part of life and animal ownership!

As for how things work at shows (I'm only familiar with our local 4-H/FFA shows) again it seems to come down to what is "easy or cheap", pens an be designed so that heads/horns don't get caught, hands and fingers don't go in, ect. At our local fair the pens have been redone to avoid injuries to animals and people as much as possible and the money that it cost to do this was saved the first year on the liability insurance! We also have 2-3 4-h/FFA members and one adult on barn duty at all times, their job is to answer questions and keep people from harassing the animals and sticking their hands or anything else in the pens, there are signs posted all over stating that the animals are NOT to be touched unless the owner says it's ok, they have set up times to have the animals on display and under control so that that people may pet and interact with the animals in a safe manner. We allow horned animals of all species. As far as in the show ring for the showmanship class the judge can choose one or several well mannered animals to be used and there are always several adults present. Our rules don't allow anyone 6yrs or younger to show anything other than rabbits and birds under 15lbs. So far this has worked well for us and we have had no injuries/accidents, our 4-H/FFA groups are great and have really stepped up in taking an active role in making the events safe and enjoyable for all involved an we don't force anyone to disbud/dehorn.

I realize that rules are rules and for now ADGA chooses to have all dairy goats horn free but that does not mean that a campaign to educate and expand the rules to include all animals regardless of horn status isn't impossible. The problem I foresee is getting people to accept their responsibility and taking an active role in making sure safety for goats and humans is high priority. Due to the way many have become accustomed to making these animals conform to what is easiest and cheapest for them and needing to blame something/someone when accidents occur, especially if they are due to ones own negligence or shortfalls in ability, and our sue happy society I'm afraid it will be a long hard fought battle. Don't forget there will undoubtedly be financial burdens to change unsafe pens/practices and no one will want to pay for it!

I for one have a good sized herd of goats that are mixed in breed and horned status (some came here disbudded, I DON"T disbud) and have had no injuries to myself/family or visitors that was more than a simple bruise or bump that were products of ACCIDENTS! I don't have problems with heads stuck in fences or anything else because I have done my best to eliminate those threats and everyone who handles my animals KNOWS proper handling. When we have visitors out to the farm they are encouraged to interact with the animals but ONLY when they are under the direct control of a responsible handler and are instructed the proper way to approach/touch the animals. Children are NOT allowed to run around at free will doing as they choose. 

Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinions and practices when it comes to their animals but for a national organization to discriminate against horned animals is wrong in my opinion, they should welcome and accommodate all dairy goats be they horned or not..especially since the last time I checked horns don't have any effect on milk production. It is a shame that they have allowed human wants and desires to dictate whether an animal should be left in it's NATURAL state or not! But hey that's humans for ya.....gotta do what pleases them because they are, after all, the superior being and can do what they want to any species below them!!

I'll step off my :soap: so those who wish can use it to :bandwagon:

**I guess I should add that these are solely MY OPINIONS and the whole topic gets me :flame:, I don't now and never will show but I find the whole practice sad!! Dairy animals should be judged on DAIRY qualities!!


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

I think all domestic livestock should be polled.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Otter said:


> Hey, I don't know why everyone is arguing with _me_, I don't make this up.
> I was just trying to answer a question.
> 
> Call up your local fair ground. At mine, you won't see steers with horns like in those pictures (actually, I've only ever seen steers with horns at specialty shows and never at a mixed venue or county fair, but I haven't been everywhere)
> ...


I'm sorry Otter.  I am very interested in showing some day and just trying to learn. I guess this must be different rules in different locations. I'm sorry if you are feeling reamed on.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Otter...No One should pick on ya Otter. I respect your opinions..and everyone elses for that matter.

Caliann..WOW..thanks for finding that. Wonder if there's any in the U.S.? Wonder if the females are horned...if so..wow..I'd have to have hubby widen the milkhouse door!

The goat forum people..Thanks..we can have differing opinions on stuff..sometimes heated..but in the whole darned process..we come out learning a bunch. About each other, about things like horns/deficiency..I mean..this forum is awesome.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

GoatJunkie said:


> It's hard for me to imagine being forced to disbud my animal in order to show if I did not want to disbud and showing mattered. I've not seen the long hotned steer someone mentioned, but I have seen large dairy and meat cows be unruly in fair barns with spectaters nearby. I believe they would cause more damage, and more harm, than any goat is capable of causing.
> 
> With that said, I am a huge fan of disbudding. I have seen does picked up off the ground by a goat with horns, very frequently targeting the udder. I have seen young meat goats hold their heads in a position that caused their horns to stick straight out, despite the fact that they curve later in life. I prefer handling disbudded goats. My personal choice..... but I have to say I AM AN EVEN BIGGER FAN of everyone having the right to chose, and there being no discrimination in the show ring.


 
THIS is all exactly my point. I admit to being a little freaked out last year when I was sitting on a bench and a bunch of kids had apparently just gotten done in the ring. They paraded their giant bulls two feet from us. Heck, they might have been steers, I don't know what those rules are but they were freaking humongous.

Someone on this thread said that you should pick your fights. My thought was that there seem to be so many who ARE upset about disbudding, but feel they have no choice because people want to show their goats.

I thought if all those people, everyone who feels that way, stood together, we could maybe get something changed so that those who do not want to disbud, don't have to.

The answer could be two different shows.

I'm not sure why people get so snippy on the interent, and those who have on this thread, you know who you are. There is no reason for it, and my initial question was directed at those who DO NOT WANT to disbud, that maybe we could come up with a solution.



I think my kids can just show bunnies.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

CaliannG said:


> I think this guy has lived a long and healthy life:


 


That is so incredibly awesome.


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## GoatJunkie (Dec 26, 2012)

Awesome, awesome posts! I know those of you who have been through this debate before must tire of it. I appreciate every one of you who is hanging in here and coming up with such thought provoking posts. It's my first Horn VS Disbudding debate, and it's an awesome read. I'll be carrying this information around in my head for years. So thanks everyone! :rock:

Caliann's post about horns being the first to show protein deficiencies in kids, and calcium deficiencies in does makes me wonder if goats that are disbudded are less likely to have these deficiencies because their bodies have no horns to support? My purposed theory is that perhaps their bodies receive more nutrients because the nutrition is not being shared with all it takes to grow horns...... Thoughts?


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> A very good number of pygmy goats are left with horns on. We had three with horns. Never got injured by them and neither did the kids. Two had a nice full sets, never got caught in the cattle panels or anything. The other one had one full horn and one horn that was gimped due to a botched attempt at chemical disbudding. He did get his funky scur-like horn caught on the fence. One of the ones with horns was flighty and stupid. But I never feared trying to catch him.
> 
> I don't know, maybe after being stepped on and bit by horses over the years, the goat horns just weren't scary.
> 
> ...


 


Aw, the one with the gimpy horn is so cute.

I have two beasts with messed up horns that weren't properly dealt with by their previous owners. Now, they both require horn maintenance, and will their entire lives.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

CaliannG said:


> Do you realize how many times I had to use Google Translate to answer that question, while I chased down the origin of that picture?
> 
> The answer is: he is a Malaguena goat, a dairy goat native to Spain that is similar in appearance to our Alpines, but has a year-round breeding season.


 
WANT


Dairy, year round breeder, and those horns?? Sign me up, madam, when you begin importing.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

I gotta say, considering the subject and the way these conversations usually go, this conversation has remained rather polite.

On another note, I WANT some of those goats that Caliann posted! I LOVE those horns!


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

Lazy J said:


> I think all domestic livestock should be polled.


 
I think you should be able to have any polled breed you want.

I also think that I should be able to keep my animals the way nature intended them to be.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

Minelson said:


> Ok...now I'm confused. At the Goat Expo that I went to in Des Moines there were goats there that did have horns.


This is also part of my question that got buried. Everyone is saying that it is a matter of safety, for the kids and for the udders, but dairy...goats...are...the...only...ones who are subject to this rule.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

Sherry in Iowa said:


> Thanks Sonshine. I truly hope that we can find some of them a good home. You give me hope!


Sherry, I really think you can use the horns as a marketing hook. If you are worried, take the humane treatment approach. I have seen websites that advertise something like this...we do not participate in the inhumane treatment of our goats by burning their horns off when they are babies. Our goats are left intact, the way God (or nature), intended them to be.

Something like that. Very often back to the landers like for things to be au natural, so having animals in all their glory is a big plus for that group.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

Mama2ws said:


> I'm with the pp's if it means that much to you then why not look into starting a horned goat show? If the tables were switched and I couldn't show my girls because they're dehorned and I wanted to show, I'd buy horned stock or find something else to show.


 
It doesn't meant that much to me. My girls want to show, but can't, and in reality I don't really want my goats around the general public bringing back some disease or something. 

However, looking into it and finding this rule, as well as the "I don't want to disbud but don't feel I have a choice" group, I thought I would start a discussion with THOSE people about it, not the anti-horn group. I get where those people stand. I get it. 

It truly baffles me that an animal that is being judged as the best representative of their breed is only allowed to be shown if it is actually altered so that it is NOT representative of the breed.

The thing that bothers me personally is that I think disbudding is inhumane, and here is this money bags "pro-goat" organization that demands it. 

I don't want to change things just to suit my girls. If there were change to be made, which I don't think there is because most people can't be bothered to stand up for ANYTHING, it would be change for the sake of the animals in general, to no longer be subject to such a barbaric practice just because people are afraid of their own livestock.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Yea, Alpines and toggs don't have cute little boer type horns. They are dangerous to be around kids.


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## GoatJunkie (Dec 26, 2012)

Lazy J said:


> I think all domestic livestock should be polled.


Color me stupid.... What is "polled?"


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

GoatJunkie said:


> Color me stupid.... What is "polled?"


 
No horns.


And I must wonder for those who don't want horns, why not get only polled breeds?

I mean, I'd like to put some cattle on my back land, and Texas Longhorns are super cool looking, but those horns on such a giant animals?? No way. They scare the crap out of me, but I also know that lots of people keep them and would tell me I'm being silly.

Solution? I won't buy longhorns. TA DA


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Polled is naturally hornless, genetically.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

> And I must wonder for those who don't want horns, why not get only polled breeds?


Well for one I haven't so much as seen a polled goat. They are not common. Really cuts down your breeding choices! I'm not interested in trying to breed in an even smaller genetic pool than I am now. Pop pop, no horns, all done- and I can buy from the lines I most admire.

My milk cows have horns, I have them tipped so they are blunt. I would think that should be enough to make a goat safe as well really. But honestly, a horned dairy goat just looks "cheap". Just associative I guess.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

GoatJunkie said:


> Color me stupid.... What is "polled?"


"Polled" are animals where the gene responsible for horns has been mutated, and does "turn on". Polled animals never grow horns to begin with.

There are polled variations of most livestock, cattle, sheep, and yes, even goats. In goats, however, you have to be careful, as several polled lines also carry the gene for pseudo-hermaphrodism.

Pseudo-hermaphrodism is a separate gene from the one that causes polled animals, but it is carried in several polled lines. Not all polled lines carry the psuedo-hermaphrodism gene, but all pseudo-hermaphrodites have a polled ancestor in their pedigree.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

CaliannG said:


> "Polled" are animals where the gene responsible for horns has been mutated, and does "turn on". Polled animals never grow horns to begin with.
> 
> There are polled variations of most livestock, cattle, sheep, and yes, even goats. In goats, however, you have to be careful, as several polled lines also carry the gene for pseudo-hermaphrodism.
> 
> Pseudo-hermaphrodism is a separate gene from the one that causes polled animals, but it is carried in several polled lines. Not all polled lines carry the psuedo-hermaphrodism gene, but all pseudo-hermaphrodites have a polled ancestor in their pedigree.


Which is IMO a direct result of people messing with nature, for their own pleasure. There will always be side effects of mutating an animal. 

In order to produce an animal with a mutation, you must cross breed over and over the original animals that displayed the mutation. As a result you have a very small gene pool, which will eventually produce other undesirable traits. You see it often in pure breed dogs and cats; bad hips, bad eyes, deafness, high rate of cancer, difficulty breathing, etc etc.

Reminds me of that margerine/butter commercial from the 70's (I think), that said, "Don't Mess with Mother Nature?"

People just can't help it, though. Instead of learning to live within the world, we try to manipulate it for our own benefit. Eventually, that thinking will prove detrimental. 

/OT


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## TriWinkle (Oct 2, 2011)

earthkitty said:


> No horns.
> 
> 
> And I must wonder for those who don't want horns, why not get only polled breeds?
> ...


How about a Watusi?


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Oh Triwinkle! There is a herd of those down the road from me about a mile away. When I first saw them, my eyes bugged out of my head!

The ones near me, though, the horns are more upright. Not directly straight up, but about half again more upright as your picture.

I kept wondering how they managed to carry the things around!


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

> I am starting this thread not to argue or insult each other, but to encourage freedom of CHOICE regarding horns in dairy goats.
> 
> This has nothing to do with The Great Horned Debate, *and I won't engage in that discussion.*


 :catfight::catfight:


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

TriWinkle said:


> How about a Watusi?


HOLY MOLEE

I really like Scottish Highlands, too, but they also have some serious horns. I am not fencily-equipped to keep such creatures.

Another reason I like horns is that after the animal has died, horns are not only useful, but pretty.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

coso said:


> :catfight::catfight:


 
Yeah, I broke my own rule. I got sick of other people making crappy comments to or about me, and holding my tongue.

I didn't ask ANY anti-horn people a question, my original question was to those who don't like disbudding. And yet, many anti-horn people stepped in just to be rude.


I _don't_ want to have a horn/no horn debate. But I will respond when addressed.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

GoatJunkie said:


> Caliann's post about horns being the first to show protein deficiencies in kids, and calcium deficiencies in does makes me wonder if goats that are disbudded are less likely to have these deficiencies because their bodies have no horns to support? My purposed theory is that perhaps their bodies receive more nutrients because the nutrition is not being shared with all it takes to grow horns...... Thoughts?


Sorry I missed this the first time around. I blame being sick today. Please join me in my pity-party. 

I was actually waiting for this question to come up, and expected it to do so.

Horns are a "last item in line" when it comes to bodies...much like fingernails in humans. I we are deficient in something, the first thing you will notice is that your fingernails suffer. This is the same with goats...if they don't have it to give, they won't be putting resources into secondary sex characteristics. That is WHY horns are such a good indicator, and the first indicator, of overall health.

The second indicator is coat. Hair in humans.  Their coat is considered more necessary for warmth and skin protection, so their bodies will only stop putting resources into coat if they are fairly bad off and things are looking critical.

Bodies are not efficient machines, neither ours nor any other mammal's. They require taking in a bit more than they need when it comes to nutrients and trace vitamins and minerals, and are designed to excrete the excess. To be truly healthy, they HAVE to have some excess to excrete. And honestly, horns don't take any more resources than our hair. In fact, horns are nothing BUT hair, just hair that is fused together and growing in a particular fashion. Would you be any healthier, and not have to worry about deficiencies in your diet, if you had your hair all lasered off?  How much would you save in nutrient usage if you were bald? Not much, huh? 

So, to answer your question in short form: No, disbudding does not prevent deficiencies.


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## StayPuff (Nov 12, 2012)

I grew up with a mother who showed goats (registered name was No Hope Dairy Goats), and had hundreds of them at one time. To me, dehorning kids is just too easy of a job to even debate it. Some want the horns, and we didn't. If you've never done it before, give it try. It's not hard, and the pain is gone in them fairly quick. Just watch them close, you may have to do it a second time if you didn't burn deep enough.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

StayPuff, you are assuming that those of us against the practice have never done it, or do not know how to do it. That is an erroneous assumption.

Many of us have ethical problems with the practice. This thread is not about whether it is easy to do, or the pros and cons, but the ethics of being able to have a choice.


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## StayPuff (Nov 12, 2012)

Well.... excuuuuuuuuse Meeeeeee... Is it unethical to castrate too?? Just wondering how deep your righteousness runs.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

As for being humane. The lady that disbuds my babies for me accidentally burned herself on the dehorner. She said she did NOT even feel it. It's so hot the nerve endings are killed instantly, I'm told. And I've noticed when kids are disbudded, they usually start screaming when put in the box, because they are being restrained. But I've noticed some don't even start to yell until several seconds after the burner has hit their head. If it hurt like getting a regular burn hurts, it would be instant. I think it's the pressure and sound of the burn plus being restrained that upsets them.


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## TriWinkle (Oct 2, 2011)

StayPuff said:


> Well.... excuuuuuuuuse Meeeeeee... Is it unethical to castrate too?? Just wondering how deep your righteousness runs.



That's one thing I've already wondered (without the excuuuse meeee part) was those opposed to disbudding because it is "mutilating the animals" are those that also castrate...I'm thinking of those boy goats could talk, and you have them a choice of which body part they'd rather keep, it would probably be the jewels!


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

StayPuff said:


> you may have to do it a second time if you didn't burn deep enough.


This turns my stomach. And that it is said so casually, just makes me shake my head.

Even if a person chooses to disbud every year, I would think the attitude should at the very least be less cavalier.

Your comment to me reads like this, "Who cares? Try it, it's no big deal, if you do it wrong just do it again, it's just an animal!"

I hope I'm wrong, but that is how it sounds.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

earthkitty said:


> I didn't ask ANY anti-horn people a question, my original question was to those who don't like disbudding. And yet, many anti-horn people stepped in just to be rude.


Rude, huh? Sorry, the only one I've seen being rude to people is you.

You are the one trying to make this about "Oh, the big money wants poor little me to not be able to be natural just because they hate horns."
I don't hate horns, and I doubt the ADGA really give a rat's tail.

Showing and horns is not about love horns, hate horns, unfair ... it is about liability, insurance, working with venues who have their _own_ safety regulations and insurance - and about accidents and injuries that HAVE occurred, both to highly valuable animals and to people, and the shape of dairy horns - which you want to totally discount - IS in fact, a factor in that.
Whether or not I, personally, like horns (I do, they're pretty, and Boer horns make great handles) or I, personally, have them on my farm (nope) has NOTHING to do with that.

I'm sorry that you don't like these facts, but that doesn't make them any less facts that answer the question you asked.

At my local fairground, you also won't see anything with testicles. Unfair? Discrimination? Trying to edge out folks who want to be natural? 
Nope. 
Insurance. The fact remains, like it or not, that intact livestock is more unpredictable and harder to control, so you can show them, but you can't show them _there._ And when every venue in the area has that policy - you are out of luck. 

And while we're talking about rude;


earthkitty said:


> Which is IMO a direct result of people messing with nature, for their own pleasure. There will always be side effects of mutating an animal.
> 
> People just can't help it, though. Instead of learning to live within the world, we try to manipulate it for our own benefit. Eventually, that thinking will prove detrimental.


Thank you so much for insulting every breeder of domestic animals since the dawn of time.
Do you have a pet coyote?
No, if you have a canine, it's a dog. And even if it's a mongrel dog, it's still a dog, a domestic animal that has been bred from the wild type to better serve our use, using naturally occurring mutations

That is how domesticating animals works. If you think it's that unethical, sell off your goats with their unnatural color patterns and _hugely_ unnatural milk production (both a product of mutations that were bred for), rid yourself of all your mutated, unethical domestic animals and crops and go hunt and gather.


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## StayPuff (Nov 12, 2012)

earthkitty said:


> This turns my stomach. And that it is said so casually, just makes me shake my head.
> 
> Even if a person chooses to disbud every year, I would think the attitude should at the very least be less cavalier.
> 
> ...


Wow... To me, that statement is about as sad as it gets. Do you grow a garden? If so, do you till? Just think about the hundreds of earthworms you murder when you're cultivating your garden. Just because the worm is smaller than a goat, is it any less significant when it comes to bearing pain? And believe me, if you castrate your bucks, that is MUCH more painful... I tell ya, some people's kids! (pun intended)


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## StayPuff (Nov 12, 2012)

This thread is about to be deleted.... I can see that coming for sure! :hand:


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

I wish this thread would be deleted, quite honestly.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Up until this last page, this was actually remaining fairly civil and the discussion was going quite well. 

As far as intact male animals, there are buck shows. Stallions and bulls get shown also. The issue here isn't whether you are for or against disbudding or even whether you feel it is ethical. 

The ethical question is when boer goats are shown, they have horns. So do Cashmere goats (and their horns don't sweep back) but there is no allowance anywhere for dairy goats. And there really should be an option. If you want to disbud for whatever reason, then fine. No one here is saying you shouldn't be able to. 

However that is basically what is being said to those who do not want to disbud for whatever reason. The industry and the clubs are saying if you want to show, then you shouldn't be able to have a decision on whether you have horns or not. Either conform to the rules as they stand or don't come. 

I'm also surprised, being this is a homestead forum, the number of people who are saying, "It's not worth the fight. Don't bother to even try to change the rules. You are just beating your head against the wall, might as well cave in if you want to show."

I have no desire to show. I think horns or not should be a personal decision. I don't think disbudding is wrong, I don't leaving horns on is wrong. I do think its wrong to say that dairy goats should never ever be allowed to show with horns. I also think it wrong to assume that the status quo is a wall not worth beating against.

Let see, plenty of people have flung themselves against walls with plenty of success. Minorities, women, a bunch of people in the 1700's who threw themselves against the wall of the English, laws about animal abuse, the people throwing themselves against the walls of city councils to change the laws regarding backyard chickens and goats.

Those were all some really thick and hefty walls too. I can't believe that the minor wall of the ADGA and allowing horns in shows is a bigger and more fortified wall than those others.


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