# Copper Sulphate.



## jamjam (Dec 29, 2009)

For a copper supplement can I use copper sulfate in my goats water trough? I use it in my chicken water to control lice and also in my dogs water to control fleas and ticks.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The problem is that you can't tell how much they get, and it's not absorbed the same way that the copper bolus rods in the bolus are. Also, copper bolusing helps control the barberpole (HC) worms by action of the copper rods themselves in the digestive system.

Learning to copper bolus is one of those intimidating things, but it is what has been tested, and it is what works.


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## Creamers (Aug 3, 2010)

I wouldn't - bolusing is easy and using a high quality mineral like Onyx Right Now is important.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I think a person probably could IF they became adept at telling signs of deficiency and seeing when their goats have enough. You would have to start with a small amount then after a couple months reassess and adjust over time. For me, the boluses are a whole lot easier


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

I use 1/4 tsp per gallon of water, same as the poultry. It does control internal parasites. I get good fecals from the goats and never use chemical wormers.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I don't have a pill gun so yesterday when I gave the goats copper I mixed the rods with some corn meal. They licked it up like they were starving.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Uh oh. Now the nay-sayers are going to come out of the woodwork, wringing their hands and claiming the goaties chewed the rods into oblivion.:hair

However...... it's sure better than NOT giving goats copper.

I sort of alternate between bolusing and peanut butter cracker administration.:happy0035:


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## st1055 (Aug 7, 2008)

My goats love marshmallows (and all sorts of treats) so they get the copper bolus with a marshmallow. And yes I guess they do chew it a bit, but they are still getting the copper rods into their system.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

jamjam said:


> For a copper supplement can I use copper sulfate in my goats water trough? I use it in my chicken water to control lice and also in my dogs water to control fleas and ticks.


You can use copper sulfate in your goat's water as a parasite deterrent, but not as a copper supplement. You can use copper OXIDE in your water trough as a copper supplement, and it will be a bit better.

Sulfates inhibit copper uptake in goats. It has to do with the receptor system that accepts minerals into the goats system. Basically, consider it like a date:

If copper goes to the goat party escorted by sulfate (Copper Sulfate), they are going to argue at the door and, most likely, sulfate will go into the party and leave copper by herself at the door without an escort or an invitation.

If copper goes to the goat party escorted by oxygen (Copper Oxide), the oxygen will take the scenic route and they will be much slower in arriving than the rest of the guests, but oxygen will still be a gentleman and escort copper into the party.

If copper goes to the goat party escorted by protein (Copper Amino Acid Complex), then protein will drive like a maniac to the party, so that they are the first arrivals, and swirl copper into the door with a flourish. Protein will then go in through the servant's door so he can grab a glass of champagne for copper and meet her in the foyer with it.

I hope this helps.


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## jamjam (Dec 29, 2009)

I thank you all for your responses. I appreciate it.. Gives me a lot to think about. Is it best to shot it down with a gun or Can I just put it down their throat holding their head up until they swallow?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You may lose your finger tips if you try to do it by hand like giving a pill to a dog. The rear molars are razor sharp.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

jamjam said:


> I thank you all for your responses. I appreciate it.. Gives me a lot to think about. Is it best to shot it down with a gun or Can I just put it down their throat holding their head up until they swallow?


Someone else on here gave me the idea of cutting the end off of a normal syringe, and loading it up with copper bolus and apple butter. It was super easy, the doe wanted more afterwards!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

CaliannG said:


> You can use copper sulfate in your goat's water as a parasite deterrent, but not as a copper supplement. You can use copper OXIDE in your water trough as a copper supplement, and it will be a bit better.
> 
> Sulfates inhibit copper uptake in goats. It has to do with the receptor system that accepts minerals into the goats system. Basically, consider it like a date:
> 
> ...


This helps me! You speak-a my lango....wahahaha!!!:bouncy::hysterical:


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## Laverne (May 25, 2008)

The facts with the copper rods, Copasure, is that they are tiny copper oxide wire rods. They lodge in the folds of the rumen, they sit down there, to slowly degrade over time. Time released. If the copper were in smaller lighter form like powder they will move fast out of the body quickly.
Myself I feel like giving the capsule filled with the Copasure, using the pill plunger, is that the weight of the capsule will make it find it's way to the bottem of the rumen better. I am paranoid that if the separated rods are stuck in anything sticky will each little rod get unstuck and by it's minute weight and find it's way to the bottom.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

It's the weight of the copper rods, not the gelatin capsule, which floats by itself. So, the rods will sink as long as you get them in the rumen and digestion starts. Also, the gelatin capsule become sticky, too, when wet with digestive fluid! 

Get those rods in there anyway you can while you're a newbie, and move to bolusing when you can.


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## grandmajo (Mar 25, 2008)

I'd be very cautious with the copper sulfate. I'm on another group and a member there was advised to drench her goats with copper sulfate. I pleaded with her not to do it, to do the bolus with the copper oxide rods. But the company that she purchased the copper sulfate from assured her that it was safe because they used it on their own goats. One of her goats died within a short time of being drenched with the copper sulfate.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> It's the weight of the copper rods, not the gelatin capsule, which floats by itself. So, the rods will sink as long as you get them in the rumen and digestion starts. Also, the gelatin capsule become sticky, too, when wet with digestive fluid!
> 
> Get those rods in there anyway you can while you're a newbie, and move to bolusing when you can.


I believe she is referring to the rods being held together and their collective weight, not the weight of the capsule itself.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

When I bolus, I use the small bolus gun from Jeffers. I use 00 size capsules, which means my big goats get 3 or so, but It works better for my minis that way. I cut off the large end of the bolus gun, and the smaller boluses fit right in the shaft. I stick them in place with peanut butter. I then tip the head up and push the bolus gun down as far down into their mouth as possible. The idea is to get it past their teeth so they swallow before they're able to crunch it. I still get one or two that crunch the boluses but it hasn't caused any issues.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

The copper oxide rods, and their place in the rumen, has to do with their _specific gravity_, not with the weight of the actual rods.

When you open a Copasure bolus to divide up, you will notice long rods, short rods, and lots of powder. It is not only the long rods that stay in the rumen and other stomachs, the short rods and powder does also because their specific gravity is heavier than that of stomach acids and stomach contents.

Once they get int there, the rods and particals "catch" into the lining of the rumen. If it was just weight, they wouldn't stay in there, because the rumen is constantly expanding and contracting in order to digest food. With as much as everything they put in their mouths get tossed around in there, if it was only weights that kept the rods in the rumen, they wouldn't last the first hour.

No, it is that as copper bonds with oxygen, the resulting oxide "rust" on the surface forms barbs which catch and hold into the soft stomach linings, therefore keeping it in place until digestive action wears it away. The "wearing away" generally takes a few months to happen, which is why a bolus generally lasts a goat 3-4 months.

The vehicle which takes the copper rods to the rumen doesn't matter in the least.


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## bknthesdle (Mar 27, 2011)

Was going to ask how often you give goats copper bolus. But I think you answered that question below. So my ne t question would be at what age do you start giving them the copper bolus?



CaliannG said:


> The copper oxide rods, and their place in the rumen, has to do with their _specific gravity_, not with the weight of the actual rods.
> 
> When you open a Copasure bolus to divide up, you will notice long rods, short rods, and lots of powder. It is not only the long rods that stay in the rumen and other stomachs, the short rods and powder does also because their specific gravity is heavier than that of stomach acids and stomach contents.
> 
> ...


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I'm not familiar with specific gravity. I'll have to look it up. 

Start bolusing at 6 months. Bolus every three to six months, depending on your goats, your feed, your mineral, etc.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I think this is in a language that I don't speak or read.

Specific gravity is the ratio of the density (mass of a unit volume) of a substance to the density (mass of the same unit volume) of a reference substance. Apparent specific gravity is the ratio of the weight of a volume of the substance to the weight of an equal volume of the reference substance. The reference substance is nearly always water for liquids or air for gases. Temperature and pressure must be specified for both the sample and the reference. Pressure is nearly always 1 atm equal to 101.325 kPa. Where it is not it is more usual to specify the density directly. Temperatures for both sample and reference vary from industry to industry. In British brewing practice the specific gravity as specified above is multiplied by 1000.[1] Specific gravity is commonly used in industry as a simple means of obtaining information about the concentration of solutions of various materials such as brines, sugar solutions (syrups, juices, honeys, brewers wort, must etc.) and acids. The reference substance is usually water.


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## Creamers (Aug 3, 2010)

Me either, Alice - lol


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Ummmm, in layman's terms, specific gravity is why oil floats on top of water, but a penny is always going to sink to the bottom of the well. (Well, minus surface tension, we won't get into that here.)

In spite of the turbulence in a typical goat's stomachs, the specific gravity of copper oxide, even in powder form, is dense enough that it will always sink to the bottom of the acid/chlorophyll/twig/leaf mixture that is in there, and therefore have the chance to grab on to some stomach lining (via those oxide barbs) and hang out for a while.

If it was not for the specific gravity of those copper oxide particles, they would simply get tossed around with the rest of the stuff in there, and out through the intestines it would go.

Due to the fact that a particle of copper oxide is heavier than a particle of, say, alfalfa, the copper sinks to the lining.

In actuality, MOST of the copper that hangs out in the goat's system does NOT do so in the rumen. Most of it finds its lining attachment in the reticulum and the abomasum. The reticulum, especially, has a LOT of soft lining for particles to grab on to.

Does this help any?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Yes, that really did help!:bowtie:


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## Laverne (May 25, 2008)

My wether kid from last year was turning from brown to white within six weeks of age, and I gave some copper to him in the form of powder before this. So I am now going to dose my kids more aggressively from now on, just like the Saanendoah article says they had to do. I am in the same severely deficient area, the West Coast. Here's the quote, 'Some breeders are routinely giving boluses (0.625 to 1.35 grams) to kids early on (2-4 weeks old) and it's proven to be very satisfactory (I've done this the last six years in my herd)'. 
So some may have to start copper very early in a kids life. 
Here is the reference article http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

jamjam said:


> I thank you all for your responses. I appreciate it.. Gives me a lot to think about. Is it best to shot it down with a gun or Can I just put it down their throat holding their head up until they swallow?


Bolusing gun will be much easier than trying to get it in there by hand. I find bolusing very easy.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

A small experiment by an experienced breeder on giving copper oxide rods in food instead of bolusing:

http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=18647.0


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

UH OH. The list owner there is likely to have words to say about that.

Here's a link to using marshmallows to administer copper.
http://www.goatspots.com/copper.html


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I chose cornmeal because I thought that by putting the rods into a marshmallow or peanut butter sandwich as I've done in the past they may get carried too far into the GI tract in one big clump. With loose cornmeal the rods can just drop out like they would if carried by a capsule.

There wasn't any chewing going on as the goats greedily slurped up the cornmeal.


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## LoneStrChic23 (Jul 30, 2010)

My mini alpine buck started showing copper deficientcy at 9 weeks old! Despite good minerals, that he actually consumed a good amount of for a kid. Now at a lil over 4 months, he looks like a black t-shirt that had bleach splashed on it!

He's going in the freezer sometime after next week, so I'm not going to fuss with him....but my standard alpine bottle buck started getting burnt looking hair tips on his darker stripes, so I bolused him at 8 weeks old. Easiest thing ever, pop bolus in with fingers, put bottle in mouth 

I have more crunched, spit out and wasted boluses when I use a gun....after the 2nd spit out, the capsule is falling apart and spilling rods. Last round I bolused with oranges. Peeled the orange, cut a hole in the center of one slice and put the bolus in. Sabrina swallowed hers whole....not even one little chew. Tootsie barely chewed, and I never heard the "crunch" of a bolus being crushed......Thought I like the marshmellow method, but oranges worked even better  

Next round I'm going to try using an old horse dewormer tube to bolus.....was told that was easier than the balling gun.....One of these days I will get bolusing down pat...but until then, I'm happy getting copper in them anyway I can.


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