# We HAVE KISSED THE MONKEY



## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Ebola news this morning is worse than ever. Not only did the hospital in Dallas botch the handling of the W. African patient, they piled contaminated clothing in the hall. Dozens of doctors, nurses and other hospital workers walked past those contaminated items

Then, rather than quarantine the people exposed they did nothing. Now we have news that a nurse with Ebola traveled across country, potentially exposing hundreds of airline passengers in a closed cabin with recirculated air. 

Next, that contaminated plane made a half dozen more trips to widely separated places.

The administration had a chance two years ago to approve a plan to block travel to and from Ebola-outbreak areas. The CDC saw this coming and had a plan that would have prevented this, but the administration killed it.

Now the best we can hope for is that by spending billions of dollars we can limit the outbreak in the US. 

Have you any idea what the costs are? Why do you think that the supervisors at the Dallas hospital did not want to put the first patient in an isolation room? A non-paying patient? What do you think it costs to prepare, tend and rehab an isolation unit? 

Multiply that by a few thousand patients and think how likely it is that we can successfully treat an epidemic. Think how likely our rabbit-warrens such as Ferguson, Mo, or Detroit, are to respect quarantines.

Oh, I am SO proud of our leaders.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Are not each and every patient at a place like Emory becoming multi million dollar problems . .??
What happens when the "bean counters" finally are heard . . . .??


. . . .Houston . .We have a problem . . . . . . .BIG TIME


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

But, But, But, it's all alright. Some one from the government said so.

This is getting scary. At some point we're going to have to start forcibly quarantining people, a special facility for those infected would be a good idea also. 

This is a national emergency and if this is the best response our government leaders have we're screwed.


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

Interesting that you should pick Ferguson,MO and Detroit as examples. There are plenty of people across the color spectrum who would not not respect a quarantine. We've already had a couple of examples. Self imposed does not work...obviously. There have been several breeches of 'protocols' I use that word loosely because we are still waiting for the government to get their act together on that. Finger pointing is a waste of time at this point. Getting it together as a nation and world is paramont.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

It gets even worse because our fragile economy will continue to tank as the number of people with Ebola increases. Possibility of a worldwide depression. Time to prep.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

You are missing the most important part of all this Its to reduce the population. Africa USA does not matter as long as the population is reduced. If we had no people the earth would heal itself. Oh forgot the cows and pigs spewing gas into the atmosphere. They have to go as well. So watch the animals will start being tested and them killed in mass like the chicken and pig deal awhile back.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Here monkey monkey monkey


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

Forcast said:


> You are missing the most important part of all this Its to reduce the population. Africa USA does not matter as long as the population is reduced. If we had no people the earth would heal itself. Oh forgot the cows and pigs spewing gas into the atmosphere. They have to go as well. So watch the animals will start being tested and them killed in mass like the chicken and pig deal awhile back.


Truth can be stranger than fiction. This is at the back of many of our minds. Being pragmatic, I like to deal with what is in front of me. Epidemics are no respecter of color, culture or beliefs. Smallpox and other diseases almost wiped out an entire Native American population. Bubonic plague, tuberculosis, etc. This would be a mental exercise if we didn't have history to tell us different.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

I mentioned Detroit and Ferguson just because they are two urban populations centers with a current notoriety. You can go into any of the rabbit warrens that exist in large cities where people of low information and low respect for law and order are crowded together and get the same result.

This is not a planned operation--I'm no believer in conspiracy--It is just a massive failure by uninformed, stupid and politically correct people. Well now we have war and pestilence. Some African pol warns this morning of approaching famine. Be advised.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

this is going to be messy.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

Oxankle said:


> I mentioned Detroit and Ferguson just because they are two urban populations centers with a current notoriety. You can go into any of the rabbit warrens that exist in large cities where people of low information and low respect for law and order are crowded together and get the same result.
> 
> This is not a planned operation--I'm no believer in conspiracy--It is just a massive failure by uninformed, stupid and politically correct people. Well now we have war and pestilence. Some African pol warns this morning of approaching famine. Be advised.



dr.nancy sniderman broke her quarantine in hotzone...africa.


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## doingitmyself (Jul 30, 2013)

If this O thing is as nasty as the news has said then its already too late. The plane trips, passengers, the lapse of enough precautions in the first couple of days a few weeks ago up to this week pretty much spread it everywhere it needed to be to become a huge disaster. Depending on if they reported the truth with no sensationalism.

I just hope most of the info. spread by the media is as baseless as they usually do with everything else. If not were are all toast..... 

Can you imagine China and Japan? Those folks live on top of each other on a good day. It will be like wildfire in cramped metro areas, out here in the boonies it will be more like a lightning storm that never stops. Sooner or later it hits ya.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

elkhound said:


> dr.nancy sniderman broke her quarantine in hotzone...africa.



Actually she was in quarantine here in the US and yes she did not keep herself voluntarily quarantined.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

reading,practicing and living the Torah will slow this down.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

rkintn said:


> Actually she was in quarantine here in the US and yes she did not keep herself voluntarily quarantined.




you mean she is here.....i thought they said they would quarantine in africa 21 days then fly here for a 2nd quarantine.


this changes everything now.....possible criminal charges should be filed if anyone of them become sick and has put public in jeopardy.


i have to change my opinion of her.....this might sound harsh...shes dumber/more selfish than i thought she was.....ugggghhhhhhh


:flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame:


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

rkintn said:


> Actually she was in quarantine here in the US and yes she did not keep herself voluntarily quarantined.



p.s.thanks for straightening me out on it.....:angel:


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

Yes they were here. She and at least one male companion went and picked up take out at a favorite restaurant. I'll try and find the link over in s&ep.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Doingitmyself, you mentioned China. I believe China has health care workers on the ground now in west Africa. Has anyone heard any statistics on their medical workers infection rates? I wonder what protocol the Chinese medical workers follow...


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

Not from s&ep but it will do
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5981154


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

The arrogance of our health system and politicians will be our undoing. 
Most people still do not believe anything is wrong.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

rkintn said:


> Yes they were here. She and at least one male companion went and picked up take out at a favorite restaurant. I'll try and find the link over in s&ep.



i seen her on news and it was by stat-link and they were saying they would self quarantine for 21 days.....stupid me...assumed/lead to believe...they would be staying put in africa then fly home.


everything about this entire situation is getting better and better by the minute.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Oxankle I brought up the same point about cost of treating ebola in the hospitals awhile ago especially when an American citizen, such as myself, cannot get into my family doctor, for under $400.00 with 2 simple blood tests...

I don't know what you imply by "rabbit warrens". Racial/economical? I don't agree with you on that. When people are afraid and/or misinformed or just plain selfish, it doesn't matter what color you are or how much $$$ you make only your own personal conscience will guide your actions.


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## RichNC (Aug 22, 2014)

elkhound said:


> reading,practicing and living the Torah will slow this down.


Can you explain this further please, because this really confused me.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

RichNC said:


> Can you explain this further please, because this really confused me.



Torah is first 5 books of bible/scripture. it has the guidelines and instructions for living.


heres just a few points....

dealing with dead bodies....we are told when a person dies to put them in ground by sundown....another words dont be messing with it and doing all this crazy days of mourning like we do today.in africa they done what is called man made tradition...to my understanding...family kisses dead person on forehead at funeral....ugghhh...we dont need to kiss dead ebola people..

many think ebola came from eating bush meat...monkey....eating clean according to scripture you wont be eating monkey.

theres more...but this is a couple items...i better stop before i preach and i aint no preacher i am a sinner.

pm me if ya need more.


guess what sin is? its transgression of the torah...going against what YHWH/god and Yeshua/jesus said to do and how to live.

* 1 John 3:4King James Version (KJV)*

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.






the word law here was translated from haTorah...meaning.....the Torah

my best advice to anyone is get a bible read it from start to finish...if its what they are interested in...get a strongs concordence so you can look up words and see what was written in original language of hebrew.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

This is just one more reason to not live in or near larger cities or close to highly populated areas. When I was at my childcare conference last weekend I was within a stones throw of the Portland International Airport and I longed to catch a flight to Denver and see my son. The risk of catching E however kept me grounded and I wondered how people who are on a plane daily feel? 

It is Halloween, my word of advice, parents, wash your child's Halloween mask before they try it on and wear it. Wash hands and wash again. Leave a window open during the day or open up a door and let fresh air into your homes, pushing out the germy stale air. If you feel sick, stay home and don't expose others and put them at risk.


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## CraftyLady (Jul 18, 2014)

cindilu said:


> This is just one more reason to not live in or near larger cities or close to highly populated areas. When I was at my childcare conference last weekend I was within a stones throw of the Portland International Airport and I longed to catch a flight to Denver and see my son. The risk of catching E however kept me grounded and I wondered how people who are on a plane daily feel?
> 
> It is Halloween, my word of advice, parents, wash your child's Halloween mask before they try it on and wear it. Wash hands and wash again. Leave a window open during the day or open up a door and let fresh air into your homes, pushing out the germy stale air. If you feel sick, stay home and don't expose others and put them at risk.



We won't have the lights on this year. Can't convince the Nieces and families not to go out. They say it's too important to the children. And the odds are low. Yes, the odds are low. 
Not that important to me.


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## CraftyLady (Jul 18, 2014)

Click on the whole story link to the NY Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/17/w...in-liberia-is-a-busy-and-lonely-business.html

Ebola Nightmare - Liberian Nightmare

We're very concerned about Ebola in America. This is what it looks like from the view point of ambulance drivers in Liberia. Wow! 

IMO - We, yes US, and the rest of the world, needs to get this thing under control in Africa. We don't want this article from the perspective of US Ambulance drivers. 

It's also why I have joined the ranks of those who want to close down air traffic to and from these countries. With exceptions for health and military personnel.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

KISS KISS KISS and thi is how we do it!!!!!!!!!!!! We move the sick around to make sure everyone has a chance of catching the bug!!!!!!!!!
The transfer will occur Thursday

Nina Pham, one of the two Texas nurses who contracted Ebola in the United States, will be moved from Texas to Maryland for specialized care Thursday.

At the request of Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital, the 26-year-old will be transferred from Dallas to an isolation unit at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda. The NIH is one of four facilities in the U.S. that is specifically equipped to treat Ebola, NBC News reports.


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## Bubba1358 (Nov 6, 2013)

Forcast said:


> KISS KISS KISS and thi is how we do it!!!!!!!!!!!! We move the sick around to make sure everyone has a chance of catching the bug!!!!!!!!!
> The transfer will occur Thursday
> 
> Nina Pham, one of the two Texas nurses who contracted Ebola in the United States, will be moved from Texas to *Maryland* for specialized care Thursday.
> ...


Wow. I just visited family in VA. My sister works near Bethesda.

Kind of surreal how many people are affected by these connections, and what the margin of error is on something so lethal....


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

My ex husband's brother's son was just informed at work that the 2nd nurse's who has ebola fiance works for their firm. Hospital's are not equipped for this. I work in a hospital and yes it is scary. There are not just nurses or doctors that can be contaminated. Someone has to clean and dispose of the waste also and it all requires special handling.


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## CraftyLady (Jul 18, 2014)

starjj said:


> My ex husband's brother's son was just informed at work that the 2nd nurse's who has ebola fiance works for their firm. Hospital's are not equipped for this. I work in a hospital and yes it is scary. There are not just nurses or doctors that can be contaminated. *Someone has to clean and dispose of the waste also and it all requires special handling.*


Yes, I wondered about this too.
The news has said that the waste from Mr. Duncan's room was piled to the ceiling in a hallway or room. Don't know which I've heard both. 
So, someone had to clean up that mess. Are they also being held in quarantine?

What about the nursing assistants and household personnel who cleaned the room after Mr. Duncan died. heck before he died


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

I thought about the sanitation workers too. This hospital tried to obfuscate the true state of affairs from the beginning. Precious time was lost while they concentrated on media damage control instead of Ebola control.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

rkintn said:


> The arrogance of our health system and politicians will be our undoing.
> Most people still do not believe anything is wrong.



I'm one of those type.  While it is clear that the hospital in Dallas totally fumbled this man's case, and that the CDC's initial protocol was severely inadequate, we do not have an Ebola outbreak in the USA. Two people have been infected in this country from the initial patient, and perhaps a few more will be. That is not an outbreak, and certainly no reason to lock yourself in the cellar. The media (and others, ahem) are doing a great disservice by making a conflagration of this. I have no doubt that things will look much better after the coming elections. Just who are the sheeple in our country? I'm waiting to see who will be the first to suggest putting people into those infamous FEMA camps.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Vicker used my favorite words, sheeple, cellar and FEMA camps!!! I think I'm in love!!!

No one quote me, I just sneezed on this post....hahahahaha!!


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

Both extremes are not helpful. Pooh-poohing peoples concerns or locking your doors . I will carry on as normal, got to run out for milk anyway  I do think people have every right to be angry and upset about the way this has been handled.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

We've known for a long time that this would eventually happen, a wild case of Ebola in our country. Yeah, the initial response has been pathetic.


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

vicker said:


> I'm one of those type.  While it is clear that the hospital in Dallas totally fumbled this man's case, and that the CDC's initial protocol was severely inadequate, we do not have an Ebola outbreak in the USA. Two people have been infected in this country from the initial patient, and perhaps a few more will be. That is not an outbreak, and certainly no reason to lock yourself in the cellar. The media (and others, ahem) are doing a great disservice by making a conflagration of this. I have no doubt that things will look much better after the coming elections. Just who are the sheeple in our country? I'm waiting to see who will be the first to suggest putting people into those infamous FEMA camps.


 
Vicker, we are on the tip of an outbreak. If I am wrong I will gladly be the first to admit it however I fear we are seeing just the start of a serious situation. No I don't lock myself in the cellar and I go about my normal day however I don't believe we should not take this seriously. The depth of untrained personal to cope with this is mind boggling.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

it isn't only in Africa where they kiss the dead. all the while I was growing up they did that. I remember screaming and running for the cupboard and not coming out for hours when mom wanted me to kiss my uncle good by. they didn't bury them before sundown either. lay in the parlor for several days. different beliefs I spose. who's to say whose right or wrong. course they didn't have Ebola. different altogether. growing up we didn't even hear that word. ~Georgia.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

If we want to take it seriously, we should start doing everything possible to stop it in West Africa.


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## Ramblin Wreck (Jun 10, 2005)

While I largely agree with Mr. Vicker, my brothers and I have been discussing building our own caskets. But ebola is not the driving force. I think it's because we're cheap. I had some nice cedar logs drying that I was thinking about using, but my younger brother scarfed a lot of it for a mantle in his new house. If I have to smell red oak rather than red cedar when I'm gone, there will be heck to pay, hopefully in Heaven. Like Mr. Elk, I do (seriously...actually seriously on the caskets too...we are cheap) I want to be buried very quickly and without embalming. The sooner I'm worm food, the better.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

We're getting cremated. Cheaper and kills biological.


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## Ramblin Wreck (Jun 10, 2005)

light rain said:


> We're getting cremated.


 I'm worried I would smell "funny" going up in smoke. Now if they could mix some hickory or mesquite in, that would probably be OK.


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

Cremated here, too.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

It's going to be too late for a lot of people once TPTB fess up.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

LightRain: When I mentioned the rabbit warrens I was referring to the multi-storied complexes, the low-income, squalid quarters where you see dead cars in the streets and gang shootings that chase honest people indoors. These will be places where quarantines cannot be voluntary and where "quarantine" does not permit you to leave your apartment--you have no back yard or patio. These are the people whose education and work ethic have limited them-- There will be those with far more advantages who catch ebola too---Snyderman is a great example of the hubris of the privileged.

Georgia: Your experience is not that unusual for older people. When my two brothers died in 1934 their little caskets sat on a hall table from the day they died until their burial on the third day. An uncle died while I was still at home; his body lay in state in an anteroom of his church. His brothers, my father and uncles, were to sit up with him but I told them to go home and sleep, that I would spend the night with Uncle Hugo. He was buried the next day, the second day after his death. 

In 1934 caskets were still made in local lumber yards and hardware stores---Undertakers were completely different then than now. Heart of the depression---no one had money for expensive funerals. My brothers' graves were not marked until I retired and had time to tend to some unfinished business.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

With mention in this thread of the Torah I am reminded of how so few modern folks with exception of course of the traditional practicing Jewish community are aware that the laws of Kosher in the Torah are generally considered as the first documented social health/safe food handling laws recorded.

While the defined Kosher slaughter performed by a rabbi is often depicted as being more humane to the animal being slaughtered, the use of cleaned and blessed razor sharp nick void free blades, hot water, kosher salts and constant overseeing of the quick, painless and clean slaughter and processing by a rabbi , who in ancient times were of the more educated and procedure trained and oriented was some of the first safe food handling regulations and often considered basis of current food processing safety regulation.

As far as the range of potential infection and spread potential, the real world attributes of the six degrees of separation may apply however due to most nations commerce and product distribution systems, the six degree of separation theory has very high exponential multiplication .

Even if a person goes apocalypse bunkered prepper isolationist anything manufactured and part of their preps realistically has potential of being a route of exposure.

Those who simply avoid physical contact while going about their daily lives still are subject to the dirty door handle exposure route with every community surface they come in contact with from door handles to gas pump nozzles, currency, the morning cup of gas station coffee, etc. all of which are subject to the exponentially amplified physical world sixth degree of separation concept.


While any who contract a bad infection be it flu, Ebola, HIV whatever and knowingly infect others shows the human nature of non concern of others and while that lack of concern could be addressed regulatory, it has little effect on the nature of a viral infection.

Nature designs its infections to be carried and spread during their most contagious periods by carriers who appear healthy and are often days , weeks or months away from showing signs themselves. Nature always wins. Even if a disease is controlled or considered eradicated, if the population/lifestyle factors that initially triggered Nature to allow the infection to take hold aren't adequately addressed, Nature comes back with a new whammy to the populations.

Throughout history Nature has addressed over population of areas be it plague, cholera ,childhood or elderly diseases or whatever.


During the diphtheria epidemics of the 20th century I have heard older generations tell of funerals for victims where the corpse was embalmed and kept away from mourners and only visible through a widow in the viewing parlor wall.

Although the deceased was isolated from the mourners, many were infected but not showing signs.

With the current threat as with all modern infection risks our best hope is to all wash regularly with hot soapy water while singing Old Macdonald as the medical community performs the task of using the infection survivors as serum donors and develop serum mule environments with animals , eggs or whatever incubation medium is adequate to inoculate some of the population as Nature goes about adjusting the factors that first made her feel it necessary to allow the infection to take noticeable hold in the first place.

Sadly one of the most prolific viral infections of Earth and Nature is called Mankind. We not only often negatively impact our host , Earth and Nature as we populate, reproduce , over saturate areas and strive to spread to other areas and even planets.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Ebola's weakness is that it is not highly contagious until it has almost killed its host, by which time the host is too danged sick to be doing much gas pumping or door opening. The danger lies in the doors opened, and the gas pumped by those who have been contaminated by the victim's body fluids, before environmental hazards can kill in the viruses in those residue fluids. Witness the fact that, so far, none of the people who lived with the sick man, even after his being sent home from the ER, has become sick with the virus.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

vicker said:


> Ebola's weakness is that it is not highly contagious until it has almost killed its host, by which time the host is too danged sick to be doing much gas pumping or door opening. The danger lies in the doors opened, and the gas pumped by those who have been contaminated by the victim's body fluids, before environmental hazards can kill in the viruses in those residue fluids. Witness the fact that, so far, none of the people who lived with the sick man, even after his being sent home from the ER, has become sick with the virus.


I have not heard anything about the people from Mr O living area other than today his girlfriend had a call from the hospital saying sorry they could not save him. 

I agree with what you just posted however it just makes sense to not travel, not be around others stay home when you had contact with people that have had ebola just makes sense since WE just dont know the whole story on the ebola too many we dont knows and too many mistakes being made from the people that think they know and the people that have been trained or not trained and now telling what went on. Just the fact that nurses went from MR.o room pulled off the outerware dropped it in the hallway and went right into another person room with no shoe change or shoe covering makes me really wonder what the nurses where thinking.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

And yet, no one else, other than those directly contaminated by mr. Duncan's body fluids, has become sick.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

but / so its ok for people in contact with mr duncan to travel and go about everyday life?


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Of course not. Don't be silly. I'm only pointing out that Ebola is NOT that easily spread. Some may become sick from those secondary exposures. I'd surely not rule it out.


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## Ramblin Wreck (Jun 10, 2005)

I do think steps could have/should have been taken to prevent any spread of the disease. Maybe the nurses got in a hurry. Maybe there was improper training. I don't really know what happened there. Everyone should prepare and take the precautions they think necessary. It's good if people want to share their worries and concerns with their friends, neighbors, and loved ones, maybe influencing others to better prepare. Hey, anything that gets people to guard their health and stock their pantries is alright by me. However, when you start comparing human beings who happen to live in the cities to rabbits in warrens, it just makes me think there are motivations other than concern for your neighbor that caused you to spark the debate. But hey, what do I know. I let near do well kin still half my casket logs/lumber. Maybe I can omit the bottom of the casket or the two ends or something.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Again, one person has come to the USA with a wild case of Ebola, and TWO people, of the many many exposed to him, have become infected by DIRECT contact with him. I fail to see a crisis. Other than the complete bungling of the initial responses.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

As a CNA, how badly the hospital messed up has been making me insane. And making me want to stay home and die as opposed to going to a hospital to be tormented first and then die, regardless of whether it's Ebola or a heart attack, etc.
In the nursing home where I work, we dread seeing our residents go to a hospital because we have seen that generally the resident will return unshaven, not having had a shower or bed bath the entire time they were there, their dentures filthy, and more often than not with a bedsore. Hospitals are places of neglect and pestilence, at least in my area. I as a patient have even been subjected to it.
I know all this, and it still blows my mind that the Ebola was treated so casually. We take more precautions against staph or shingles than that hospital did for Ebola. And you can't tell me the workers didn't know better. If a CNA learns it in class to get certified then a nurse dang well learns it. I'm not saying it's going to be epidemic in America, but it definitely has the potential to be if the hospital situations aren't improved.
A lot of people have been asking me, if I am asked to care for an Ebola patient, will I quit?
No - as long as the proper sanitation and PPE are provided to me. If that is lacking, I'll refuse. But it's not in my heart to refuse care to someone just because I fear what they have. I've cared for many people with AIDS, MRSA, and Hepatitis. I feel that this is no different, IF the proper precautions are taken.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Wreck: Have you ever walked thru one of the tenement districts in NYC, or Detroit, or Yokohama, Or any other large city? If those don't resemble rabbit warrens my understanding of warrens is faulty. 

People there live in such close quarters, and in some cases such squalor, that ANY contagious disease would race thru like fire. Good people or bad, makes no difference.

Those of us who live in single family homes, even on fifty foot lots in town, are far less likely to transmit disease to our neighbors IF WE STAY HOME during an epidemic. Further, we are more able to stockpile food that would PERMIT us to stay home.


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Oxankle said:


> Wreck: Have you ever walked thru one of the tenement districts in NYC, or Detroit, or Yokohama, Or any other large city? If those don't resemble rabbit warrens my understanding of warrens is faulty.
> 
> People there live in such close quarters, and in some cases such squalor, that ANY contagious disease would race thru like fire. Good people or bad, makes no difference.
> 
> Those of us who live in single family homes, even on fifty foot lots in town, are far less likely to transmit disease to our neighbors IF WE STAY HOME during an epidemic. Further, we are more able to stockpile food that would PERMIT us to stay home.



I've not been to Detroit or Yokohama (have you?) but I've regularly been to NYC and to areas that would scare the poop out of you. You are so off base it's obscene. Just because an area is depressed economically doesn't mean it's not clean and breeds disease. Been to apartments in Harlem that look awful on the outside (from a century or more of being) and the inside you could remove a gallbladder on the floor and never think MRSA. On the contrary, I've driven to upstate NY, passed dilapidated homes and unkempt farms. Should we think that they're going to go to the feed store and bring whatever death-ill in on their feet as well?



Shrek said:


> Sadly one of the most prolific viral infections of Earth and Nature is called Mankind. We not only often negatively impact our host , Earth and Nature as we populate, reproduce , over saturate areas and strive to spread to other areas and even planets.


Shrek I would add that the other most dangerous, contagious disease is ignorance.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

The trash comes out of the high places as well as the low. The rabbit warrens comment was pretty harsh...


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

But I do get what Shrek meant.


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## CraftyLady (Jul 18, 2014)

I'm just thinking about the people in all of the African countries who have had the Ebola virus.
Years ago - Someone in the capital city of ______. A Mayor, Governor or some person working in a Hotel probably said - Oh, it's just those bush people, small village out there, somewhere. It's just bodily fluids said the Health personnel to the leaders. Don't worry, we have this under control. See, those CDC people are here. They know what to do. 
It won't happen here. 
Famous last words. 
Don't panic but - Don't become complacent.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

a lab worker that handled mr duncans fluids for testing in on a cruise ship!


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## CraftyLady (Jul 18, 2014)

Forcast said:


> a lab worker that handled mr duncans fluids for testing in on a cruise ship!


Yes, it's been in a few posts on other threads. Here's the story.


http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/17/health/us-ebola/index.html


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

HandyMama, and Wreck; Are you seriously proposing that an epidemic of Ebola would not be harder to control in a crowded tenement district than in a suburb of single family homes? Think about it-- High rise buildings wall to wall on both sides of the street--

And yes, I've seen the cities. Tokyo and Yokohama, when I was there, were still heating with coal and the tenement districts had stove pipes coming out of a window in each apartment. In the mornings the sidewalks were filled shoulder-to-shoulder people, most wearing surgical masks in the winter.

Little Italy in NYC, a pretty good address, looked much the same but far upscale and no masks or stove pipes. I've seen that shoulder-to-shoulder people too.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

vicker said:


> *And yet, no one else*, other than those
> directly contaminated by mr. Duncan's body fluids, *has become sick*.





vicker said:


> Again, one person has come to the USA with a wild case of Ebola,
> and TWO people, of the many many exposed to him, have become infected by DIRECT contact with him.
> I fail to see a crisis. Other than the complete bungling of the initial responses.


***********************************
OR that TPTB, via the media, has made the public aware of.

The 'crisis' could very well be brewing as we type these words and those
in the know, will *NOT* release such information because it could cause a panic.

Of course, we could play "wait & see"...... hard to keep an epidemic 
quiet for very long. It has a way of making itself seen and heard.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> HandyMama, and Wreck; Are you seriously proposing that an epidemic of Ebola would not be harder to control in a crowded tenement district than in a suburb of single family homes? Think about it-- High rise buildings wall to wall on both sides of the street--
> 
> And yes, I've seen the cities. Tokyo and Yokohama, when I was there, were still heating with coal and the tenement districts had stove pipes coming out of a window in each apartment. In the mornings the sidewalks were filled shoulder-to-shoulder people, most wearing surgical masks in the winter.
> 
> Little Italy in NYC, a pretty good address, looked much the same but far upscale and no masks or stove pipes. I've seen that shoulder-to-shoulder people too.



I think it will not matter where you live or how much money/privilege you think you have or don't have, everyone will be affected before it's all said and done. People are people and the arrogance of thinking "it won't happen to me" knows no societal boundary. Ultimately, it will be our arrogance that will do us in. We are not all knowing and capable. That has been demonstrated already.


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Ox those single family homes you think will be safer are usually loaded with the biggest germ factories and disease carriers out there--CHILDREN. 

Maybe we should propose a quarantine on mothers who lick a tissue and wipe the dirt off their kids' faces?


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Tommyice? What do you have against children? There are children in most homes, be it tenement or castle. 

The point is that I believe it is easier to quarantine a home on a city lot (or in the woods) than it is to quarantine an apartment in a ten story building holding six hundred people.

I may be wrong--I've no experience in public health matters.


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Nothing against children at all. I even like some of them

My point is that multiple family dwellings are no more of a disease risk than others (especially children). Children are not mature enough to maintain safe hygiene practices--just washing hands is not enough--and they put things in their mouths. Or take their wet fingers and touch something you might touch (like the keypad pen at the pharmacy where you picked up your blood pressure pills).

If you're going to pontificate about public health without having experience in it, learn before you speak.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Tommyice said:


> Nothing against children at all. I even like some of them
> 
> My point is that multiple family dwellings are no more of a disease risk than others (especially children). Children are not mature enough to maintain safe hygiene practices--just washing hands is not enough--and they put things in their mouths. Or take their wet fingers and touch something you might touch (like the keypad pen at the pharmacy where you picked up your blood pressure pills).
> 
> If you're going to pontificate about public health without having experience in it, learn before you speak.


I agree with Ox. 

It's a numbers game. The more people you come in contact with, the more likely you are to become exposed. A tenement style building with shared hallways promotes more contact than a townhouse which promotes more contact than a single family home.

Same thing with shopping. You are more likely to be exposed to the flu at Walmart than at the gas station.

With Ebola, if you are in an effected area, you want the minimum contact with other people possible.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

:run: time to head for the FEMA Camps before they all turn into zombies!!.....LOL!!!:nana:


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Ox, I think the main problem was that to some you make it sound like you feel you are superior to those living in close quarters. It came off as derogatory, not common sense, the way you meant it to. Could being in close quarters with lots of people increase our chances? Yes, but only if we let it. 
Another nursing home example. If the proper precautions are taken, any disease can be contained. I've cared for a resident who had MRSA in his lungs. Very contagious and potentially dangerous. It did not spread to any other resident or worker because we were careful. And I think a nursing home has more people in close quarters than most apartments for sure.
It does seem dangerous. But it need not be, IF the proper precautions are taken. It will be left up to each individual to safeguard himself against it. We cannot depend on others. We can make any situation safe as long as WE are careful.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

The best way to not get the flu is to wash your hands before you touch your face. 

Nobody knows if that hand rail has been sneezed on, and so we tend to pick up germs on our hands. When folks rub their eyes or touch their mouths, they germs an infect them.


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## sdnapier (Aug 13, 2010)

I was in a hygiene/hand washing class a few years ago. At the beginning they passed around a sign in sheet. Unbeknownst to all it had been dusted with a powder (don't know the name) that shows up under a black light. So at the end of the class they turned off the overheads and turned on the black light. It was amazing to see the powder show up on all sorts of body parts but especially the face. 

I'd like to get my hands of that stuff now and practice not touching.


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## Terri in WV (May 10, 2002)

Here you go: 

http://www.homespy.com/Theft_Detection_Powder.htm


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> The administration had a chance two years ago to approve a plan to block travel to and from Ebola-outbreak areas. The CDC saw this coming and had a plan that would have prevented this, but the administration killed it.


The problem I see with a travel ban is that desperate people may circumvent it, crossing borders and/or flying to intermediate destinations first in order to foil authorities. 

If we're letting people in, we know who is coming and have some way to track and monitor them. People who sneak in? Not so much ...


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

A woman at the cafÃ© pointed out another issue with the temperature taking on air flights beyond the contagious without running a fever thing.

What about those with normal body temperatures in the 95 to 97 degree range? Elderly and those impaired circulatory systems or paralysis often have lower body temps and if they registered a normal 98.6 would be running a fever.


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## Ceilismom (Jul 16, 2011)

Shrek said:


> A woman at the cafÃ© pointed out another issue with the temperature taking on air flights beyond the contagious without running a fever thing.
> 
> What about those with normal body temperatures in the 95 to 97 degree range? Elderly and those impaired circulatory systems or paralysis often have lower body temps and if they registered a normal 98.6 would be running a fever.


Heck, think about the parents who know they can't send their kids to daycare or school if they're running a fever, so give them a dose of Tylenol and then head off to work.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

willow_girl said:


> The problem I see with a travel ban is that desperate people may circumvent it, crossing borders and/or flying to intermediate destinations first in order to foil authorities.
> 
> If we're letting people in, we know who is coming and have some way to track and monitor them. People who sneak in? Not so much ...


You're assuming that they have the money and knowledge and time to leave Africa and get into the US before Ebola immobilizes them. It's one thing to take a plane to Europe and then another plane to the US and taking a plane to Europe, then a plane to Mexico or Central America and then hiring someone to smuggle them into the US.

The other part is do you really believe the government has the capability to keep track of 1000 West Africans a week that are coming into this country plus all the people they come in contact with? 

That is all BS. The reason they are saying it is because they are afraid of a world wide trade collapse bringing our economy to its knees.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2014)

People....THOUSANDS of Americans die every year from the flu...THOUSANDS....why? Because it's easy to catch..Ebola, is not..i.e.someone sick with Ebola cannot spread it by merely walking down the street sneezing and coughing....how many US citizens have people vomit on them or sit in a puddle of diarrhea in a public toilet? The persons most at risk are those who get to dispose of bodies..those who have to handle waste and vomitus..meaning nurses, doctors, aides, housekeeping, dietary, funeral directors, etc. 

The idea of an epidemic of Ebola in America is very far fetched..fueled by media hyperbole and photos of bodies piled up in West Africa. 

With 40+ years of healthcare under my belt, I feel somewhat qualified to offer an opinion...who IS at risk? TRULY at risk? Healthcare workers in huge cities with large multicultural populations who happen to work in emergency rooms.
With Ebola, they have to assume everyone with fever, vomiting and diarrhea who comes to the ER has it and act accordingly...THAT'S quite a strain on the system, and will be the #1 problem as flu season hits soon. 

The CDC has tried to be politically correct and that's a problem..true quarantine means forced quarantine, not signing a paper...patient A has Ebola...then everyone who has been in the same room as patient A 24 hours before he became ill.MUST be quarantined for 21 days..no flying off to Ohio..no stopping at a favorite coffee shop, no going on a cruise..no taking a walk because you're bored...isolating contacts is infectious disease 101....
It works every time...Americans especially resist the concept...imho they need to be better informed to facts vs media hysteria..

EVERY effort needs to be made to stop Ebola in West Africa...every effort..unless that is done, it will continue to decimate that region, and increase the likelihood of an an eventual world pandemic...and THAT is a real threat.
I wouldn't go partying around people just arrived from West Africa, nor would I hide in my house in the middle of Missouri spraying bleach everywhere..

You have more chance of catching influenza than Ebola, hands down.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

bostonlesley said:


> People....THOUSANDS of Americans die every year from the flu...THOUSANDS....why? Because it's easy to catch..Ebola, is not..i.e.someone sick with Ebola cannot spread it by merely walking down the street sneezing and coughing....how many US citizens have people vomit on them or sit in a puddle of diarrhea in a public toilet? The persons most at risk are those who get to dispose of bodies..those who have to handle waste and vomitus..meaning nurses, doctors, aides, housekeeping, dietary, funeral directors, etc.
> 
> The idea of an epidemic of Ebola in America is very far fetched..fueled by media hyperbole and photos of bodies piled up in West Africa.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you said, but you left out 1 simple fact.

What is the one thing that drives a virus? Survival. Since the host dies so quickly, it must find a new host to survive.

The other point I would make is the mortality rate from flu is not even close to the 50%-70% for Ebola. The only info I could find on flu death rate was .02%. I'll take my chance with flu every year for the rest of my life over 1 case of Ebola.

As we have seen with all the variants of the flu virus, you can't plan for the future based simply on the past. Viruses mutate. Mother Nature creates things and gives them a survival instinct. Ebola will mutate to survive.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I have read that to circumvent the temperature check point all they need do is take something like Tylonel (sp)

of course that is only for a mild temp.......


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Regardless of the plague de jour I hate having to go to that walk in petri dish culture my doctor calls a waiting room and office once every six months for my refills and blood tests to make sure my meds aren't killing me.


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## sdnapier (Aug 13, 2010)

Terri in WV said:


> Here you go:
> 
> http://www.homespy.com/Theft_Detection_Powder.htm


Thanks Terri!

Shrek, you bring up a good point about a person's temperature. Mine is consistently 97.6 so at 100.4 I am really not feeling well.
I agree about the doctors waiting room. It has never smelled of disinfectant ever and no windows open. I don't touch the arm rests, door knobs, etc. My clothes go in the wash as soon as I get home.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> I agree with everything you said, but you left out 1 simple fact.
> 
> What is the one thing that drives a virus? Survival. Since the host dies so quickly, it must find a new host to survive.
> 
> ...


I agree that the likelihood is that "someday" it will mutate..and that of course the given high mortality rate makes it a fearsome illness...yet dealing in the "now" and the "where"..this isn't a 3rd world country with no decent drinking water...Most people go about their business in the USA without any knowledge that PLAGUE is seen in our Southwestern states..and it is easily treated...I'm more concerned right now with antibiotic-resistant TB than the likelihood of Ebola going epidemic here..

In the here and now, Ebola is not a public health threat in America..it's an individual threat, depending upon contacts with a sick person...if the West African culture allowed for dead bodies to be disposed of in the manner necessary to stop the spread of disease, their exposure would drop like a rock...West Africa needs the assistance of every able country in order to stop the disease...I'm for banning commercial flights from and to those countries until it is contained...send in hundreds or thousand of supplies, food, medical staff, shelters, etc. via military cargo planes...If I had the physical capability to do so, I'd be headed there with medical volunteers...it MUST be stopped in West Africa.

and, Ox is correct...slums and tenements /public housing are a public health nightmare in an epidemic..lack of proper diet, overcrowding, poor hygiene and the common infestation of vermin in those areas of poverty all contribute to a significantly higher rate of disease and mortality ...it is just as true now as it was in Roman times and Middle Ages..


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

As far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong, a human virus has never been known to evolved to change its mode of infection, say from transfer from body fluids to being airborne. Scientists won't say it won't because it is possible, but the chance is so small as to be invisible. Ebola makes its victims so sick, and kills them so rapidly that it shoots itself in the foot and hampers its own propagation. Perhaps it will evolve to be less deadly?


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Never heard of an airborne virus. That does not keep people from sneezing, coughing, drooling, spitting on sidewalks, wiping their mouths with their hands and then touching doorknobs, sinks, etc, etc. The virus cannot live long outside the human body, but in close quarters there is plenty of airborne mucus. Further, five people out of ten don't even bother to cover their mouths when they cough/sneeze, whatever. This is an ugly virus.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

The flu, chickenpox, rubella, measles, mumps, common cold are a few of the airborne viruses that cause illness in humans.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2014)

vicker said:


> As far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong, a human virus has never been known to evolved to change its mode of infection, say from transfer from body fluids to being airborne. Scientists won't say it won't because it is possible, but the chance is so small as to be invisible. Ebola makes its victims so sick, and kills them so rapidly that it shoots itself in the foot and hampers its own propagation. Perhaps it will evolve to be less deadly?


Ebola, although very deadly, isn't very efficient..it takes 3 weeks for it to incubate and then become communicable...take chickenpox virus as a contrast.."Varicella" virus is incredibly efficient..it too has a 21 day incubation, BUT it is highly contagious during the asymptomatic 21 days AND the following 2+ weeks while lesions develop and eventually crust over. That's an opportunistic 5 weeks to catch it..and that's why it's efficiently contagious..good thing its not a highly fatal virus!

Viruses mutate, in that their structure changes..so that antibodies built up against "strain B" will have zero effect upon "strain C"..I'm far from a virologist, yet I agree that, although possible in theory, a virus doesn't alter itself to be differently communicable..

oh..forgot to say that the reason we care if the virus mutates is that like HIV, it makes it impossible to develop a vaccine which provides predictable immunity..


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

> *Doctors Without Borders said Tuesday that 16 of its staff members have been infected with Ebola and that nine have died.* The toll highlights the high risk of caring for Ebola patients even at well-equipped and properly staffed treatment centers.


http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/10/14/6198597/doctors-without-borders-loses.html?rh=1


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/10/14/6198597/doctors-without-borders-loses.html?rh=1


I have many friends who volunteer with Doctors Without Borders..compared to West African outlying medical clinics, their "well-equipped and properly staffed" facilities hardly compare with Emory or Mass general..or any 50 bed hospital in rural America..

and also, one has to keep in mind that medical staff isn't in the treatment area 24/7...they still are out in the public areas conducting personal business just as anyone else. 

A good friend just came back from a volunteer trip with another organization in Nicaragua ..it took them 16 hours to travel up river to the remote village where they were expected..they stayed 2 weeks..no potable water ( they hauled their own), no kind of human waste system..imagine trying to administer to dying people in such an area..so limited as to what we can do, despite the knowledge...


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## Terri in WV (May 10, 2002)

bostonlesley said:


> ...how many US citizens have people vomit on them or sit in a puddle of diarrhea in a public toilet?


I can honestly say not THIS citizen! Huh-uh, nope, nada, hasn't happened. And it's been more than a decade that I've had a baby spit up on me.


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

Does anyone know why they are concerned about the patients dogs? I heard yes a dog can carry Ebola same as it does rabies. I also hear that the virus would have to mutiate to infect animals. Isn't this how swine flu infected humans? The virus mutiated from animals (pigs) to humans. Also bird flu? Someone with a more medical background could probably answer this.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

They are not sure, but think the natural animal vector is a fruit bat that lives in the Congo River Basin. People became infected by handling the carcass or by putting the raw or undercooked meat in their mouth. I'm don't know that it even makes the animals sick or not, but it's sure not good for humans. 
Whether or not you kissing a monkey is a bad thing is up in the air. 
The reason they're concerned with the dog is the same reason they are concerned about people who may have had contact with people who may have had contact with someone who may have had Ebola, unfounded fears.


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

vicker said:


> They are not sure, but think the natural animal vector is a fruit bat that lives in the Congo River Basin. People became infected by handling the carcass or by putting the raw or undercooked meat in their mouth. I'm don't know that it even makes the animals sick or not, but it's sure not good for humans.
> Whether or not you kissing a monkey is a bad thing is up in the air.
> The reason they're concerned with the dog is the same reason they are concerned about people who may have had contact with people who may have had contact with someone who may have had Ebola, unfounded fears.


 
I don't find it unfounded if a person has contact with an infected person and they travel and sneeze or cough or vomit then the chance of getting the Ebola is there even twice removed the odds are still there. Do I think people should panic, no, however neither do I think they should stick their heads in the sand and ignore it. It ain't going to happen to me is a nice little bubble to live in.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Since Ebola seems to have its start-up in the equatorial region of Africa . . . .

But yet several have stated that the virus thrives in cool/cold temps . . . . 

That is kind of a head scratch-er to me..........

One thing is for sure . . . .There is a thousand questions concerning Ebola and the lovely CDC does not know the answer too 997 of them.........

those three are
1 it is a virus
2 it kills
3 it . . . . . .?????????


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

I read that gold miners are going into mines to work and naturally these mines are inhabited by bats. Some colonies of bats are huge. Can you imagine how much bat poop and saliva must be contained in those mines?

If anyone else has more info I'd like you to share it. I could not figure out why people would eat bats (other than starvation) but to get gold, that makes sense to me... And then the miners carry the virus home to their families and communities.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

light rain said:


> I read that gold miners are going into mines to work and naturally these mines are inhabited by bats. Some colonies of bats are huge. Can you imagine how much bat poop and saliva must be contained in those mines?
> 
> If anyone else has more info I'd like you to share it. I could not figure out why people would eat bats (other than starvation) but to get gold, that makes sense to me... And then the miners carry the virus home to their families and communities.





> *The current Ebola epidemic was traced back to a bat-eating family in the village of Gueckedou in south-eastern Guinea.*





> In Africaâs Congo Basin, people eat an estimated five million tonnes of bushmeat per year, according to the Centre of International Forestry Research.


http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/


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## SimplerTimez (Jan 20, 2008)

Since I had planned air travel during this time, I wanted to research to make sure I had current information. I have found this site to be quite good at keeping reporting up to date (pun intended) from a medical perspective:

http://www.uptodate.com/contents/ep...ations-of-ebola-and-marburg-virus-disease#H23

I do hope that those dealing post-mortem have been well informed, since a high incidence of the viral exposure and passage in West Africa seems to come from the viral load remaining present on the victim two to three days post-mortem (one scientific article reported 265 infections from a single funeral due to post-death rituals)

One researcher in the US has stated that a 31 day quarantine would be more meaningful, since he found 1-12% infection rate past the current 21 day suggestion. But as with all things here, costs come into play as a weight against the benefits.

(http://currents.plos.org/outbreaks/article/on-the-quarantine-period-for-ebola-virus/)

I agree with Lesley; I think we are more likely to see cluster outbreaks than an epidemic, but I think our technological arrogance that we know what we are dealing with, and overconfidence in the face of a virulent pathogen is aptly demonstrated in nurses hopping on planes and cruise ships after working with a known patient and thereby putting others at risk. The persistence in other bodily fluids is a little troubling and rarely mentioned along with the heightened risk of dealing with a body after death. 

Fall is always a good time to boost one's immune system anyway, with the advent of flu season and closed windows and doors increasing our exposure to all types of human-lovin' germs and microbes 

Just my .02 shekels worth on the matter.

~ST


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

SimplerTimez said:


> Since I had planned air travel during this time, I wanted to research to make sure I had current information. I have found this site to be quite good at keeping reporting up to date (pun intended) from a medical perspective:
> 
> http://www.uptodate.com/contents/ep...ations-of-ebola-and-marburg-virus-disease#H23
> 
> ...


The other fall/winter aspect that increases chances of infection is an individual's vitamin D level. Many are deficient and do not know it. To the contrary, depending on your age, a lower vitamin D level and less efficient immune system may save your life in a flu pandemic.


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