# Are we nine meals or nine minutes away from anarchy?



## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

Some say nine meals...


Quoted from a recent DailyMail UK news article:

_"...It was Lord Cameron's estimation that it would take just nine meals - three full days without food on supermarket shelves - before law and order started to break down, and British streets descended into chaos.

A far-fetched warning for a First World nation like Britain? Hardly. Because that's exactly what happened in the U.S. in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. People looted in order to feed themselves and their families..."_


(Some excerpts from the article are included at the end of this post in case this link breaks): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...anarchy--Britain-facing-real-food-crisis.html



I say we are _nine minutes_ to anarchy in many cases... 

People looting to feed their families can be expected in any severe crisis, but as a Katrina survivor, I can tell you that I saw a kind of anarchy that was not a result of missed meals. Surprisingly, food and water had nothing to do with it. Within minutes of widespread communications breakdowns, anarchy started in many places, and not just in New Orleans. Surprisingly some small towns and rural areas were affected also.

Anarchy can be triggered by many things... Often, triggers are much more sudden and brutal than the gradual decline of law and order that is painted by Lord Cameron in this article. Around the world, things such as unpopular political climates, or even judicial decisions have sparked shockingly sudden and brutal rioting. Severe disasters are often followed by looters and other two-legged animals who purposely track storms and other natural disasters.

This short excerpt from my blog illustrates this...


_Unfortunate, out-of-my-hands kind of circumstances found me trapped near Ground Zero, on the Mississippi Gulf Coast during Hurricane Katrina. I weathered the storm in an area generally known for its friendliness and charming hospitality.

After the hurricane, I emerged into a totally changed world. All the old rules didn't apply anymore. Nothing was as it should be. As if the devastation weren't enough, I saw some of the darkest anarchy I ever dreamed would be possible in the otherworldly polite pre-Katrina society.

True, there were places where there was no anarchy to speak of, but rather a walking-dead kind of numbness, an unreal-ness to it all. Nothing even remotely like this had ever happened before.

What really struck me, was the suddenness of the looting and brutality. As the hurricane winds stilled, something else evil and palpable was stirring. I can almost pinpoint the loosening of it...just as soon as people realized there were no real boundaries, little to no law-and-order, or communication...that's when anarchy quicky broke loose in places. It wasn't just a case of food and water deprivation. It started long before that.

Armed-to-the-teeth thugs and looters are not far behind any major crisis, anywhere. They are equal opportunity workers. Some are highly organized and brutally efficient, and will travel long distances to wait for opportunities such as this...
_
(The rest of the story can be found here http://purecajunsunshine.blogspot.com/2007/06/thoughts-on-rural-america-in-times-of.html

So you see, society's thin skin is kept intact only when communication systems are in place. When most people can no longer call for help, the things that lurk beneath the surface of our society can rise into anarchy. Be prepared.

--PureCajunSunshine







http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...anarchy--Britain-facing-real-food-crisis.html


Nine meals from anarchy - how Britain is facing a very real food crisis

By Rosie Boycott
Last updated at 1:41 AM on 07th June 2008


The phrase 'nine meals from anarchy' .... was the expression coined by Lord Cameron of Dillington, a farmer who was the first head of the Countryside Agency - the quango set up by Tony Blair in the days when he pretended to care about the countryside - to describe just how perilous Britain's food supply actually is.


Long before many others, Cameron saw the potential of a real food crisis striking not just the poor of the Third World, but us, here in Britain, in the 21st Century.

The scenario goes like this. Imagine a sudden shutdown of oil supplies; a sudden collapse in the petrol that streams steadily through the pumps and so into the engines of the lorries which deliver our food around the country, stocking up the supermarket shelves as soon as any item runs out.

If the trucks stopped moving, we'd start to worry and we'd head out to the shops, cking up our larders. By the end of Day One, if there was still no petrol, the shelves would be looking pretty thin. Imagine, then, Day Two: your fourth, fifth and sixth meal. We'd be in a panic. Day three: still no petrol.

What then? With hunger pangs kicking in, and no notion of how long it might take for the supermarkets to restock, how long before those who hadn't stocked up began stealing from their neighbours? Or looting what they could get their hands on?

There might be 11 million gardeners in Britain, but your delicious summer peas won't go far when your kids are hungry and the baked beans have run out.

It was Lord Cameron's estimation that it would take just nine meals - three full days without food on supermarket shelves - before law and order started to break down, and British streets descended into chaos.

A far-fetched warning for a First World nation like Britain? Hardly. Because that's exactly what happened in the U.S. in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. People looted in order to feed themselves and their families.

If a similar tragedy was to befall Britain, we are fooling ourselves if we imagine we would not witness similar scenes of crime and disorder.

Well, today Britain is facing a very real crisis. Granted, it is not the threat of a sudden, terrifying phenomenon such as the hurricane that struck New Orleans. But in its capacity to cause widespread hardship and deprivation nationwide, it is every bit as daunting.

>snipped for breviety<

As oil prices have risen, so has the cost of food.

The 'black gold' is embedded in our complex global food systems, in its fertilisers, the mechanisation necessary for its production, its transportation and its packaging.

For example, to farm a single cow and deliver it to market requires the equivalent of six barrels of oil - enough to drive a car from New York to LA.

Unbelievable? One analysis of the fodder pellets which are fed to the vast majority of beef cows to supplement their grazing found that they were made up of ingredients that had originated in six different countries. Think of the fuel required to transport that lot around the world.

Now factor in the the diesel used by the farm vehicles, the carbon footprint of chemical fertilisers used by most nonorganic beef farms and the energy required to transport a cow to the abattoir and process it. The total oil requirement soon adds up.

And so as oil prices have risen, so too has the cost of food - and I'm afraid it's only set to get worse. The age of cheap food is at an end - and it will impact not only on our supermarket bills, but on the whole economy.

>snipped<

...how will a nation that has grown accustomed to having what it wants, when it wants, cope? We are no more used to real deprivation than we are to the pandemic diseases that claimed so many British lives a century or so ago.

Yet the truly shocking fact is that the Government has made no plans at all to prepare for this possibility. Indeed, it has utterly failed to address the vital issues surrounding our food supplies and security.

>snipped<

It is not simply that we do not have enough land to grow the grain to feed the animals which in turn feed us. In the past two decades, pressure on our natural resources has increased to a level which many experts fear has become unsustainable.

For example, in the U.S., the use of hydrocarbon pesticides has increased 33 times as farmers sought to increase production and yet, as soil structures weaken due to over-use and mono-crop cultivation, more crops are being lost to pests every year.

The world has a finite supply of fresh water too, yet 70 per cent of all freshwater is used for agriculture, often horribly wastefully.

>snipped<

Certainly, intensive farming methods are only adding to the problem: according to the UN, animal farming now accounts for a fifth of global greenhouse gas emissions, due to forest clearances and the methane emitted by cattle.

The net result is a looming crisis of which soaring oil prices could simply be the starting gun.

In this regard, the dominance of the supermarkets in British food retailing contributes massively to our vulnerability. Rising energy prices have an immediate impact on many of the food giants' common practices.

Their reliance on diesel trucks for 'Just in time delivery' and ' warehousing on wheels'; their endless plastic packaging and their transportation of processed foods and raw materials around the world means that our supermarkets have been hit doubly hard by the high oil price.

...In the words of Tim Lang, Professor of Food Policy at City University, London: 'We are sleep-walking into a crisis.'


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

Be prepared for the very real possibility of anarchy coming to any neighborhood...maybe even your own.

If you can't fight or flee...then hide.

At times, a temporary retreat may be necessary to regroup for fight or flight. Make plans now for expedient hidey holes and other hiding places in the event the BGs come to your neighborhood, be it urban, suburban or rural...

Even those who have the idea to 'shoot-em-all-up' could eventually run out of ammo, options and maybe even guts and gumption. Anarchy, especially the prolonged kind, has a very high pucker factor.


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## Pack Rat (Nov 9, 2006)

Wow. Someone else finally woke up and spoke up. I wonder how many across the pond have actually digested that news, rather than just letting it pass before their eyes, and taken to planting a garden? 

Cajunsunshine, thank you for that post, and for your blog observations. It's nice to see someone else who sees that "it can happen here".


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

Thanks, PR!

'tis so sad to see how many people (here in the USA and in Europe) just don't 'get it', and eyes glaze over at the mention of things like these...

Just be ready.


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## otobesane1 (May 27, 2008)

Great post, however, I would take exception with the the characterization that people were looting for food. Most of the "looting" was done by thugs "stealing" anything they thought was valuable. A friend of mine who was called in to help contain the looting told me that there was food left on shelves in grocery stores, yet electronics stores were picked clean. The looting that will take place in the immediate aftermath of any disaster or event probably isn't going to affect most of us. It's the looting, and murders, that will occur in the following days (or weeks if this is a big one) will test us all.

TK


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I've always heard no country was more than three days away from anarchy.
There is always going to be looting by the lower classed people, anytime they think they can get away with it.

That's why most of us prep... we know that when it comes down to a shtf scenario, it's too late to expect success in prepping, once the 'cat' is out of the bag...


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## Bob_W_in_NM (Sep 28, 2003)

Anarchy? I believe this country is just a matter of days away from cannibalism due to the societal breakdown in this country (in "normal" times).

Anybody here cooked a missionary lately? Perhaps someone ought to start a thread for recipes using the "other white meat".

Bob


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

otobesane1 said:


> Great post, however, I would take exception with the the characterization that people were looting for food. Most of the "looting" was done by thugs "stealing" anything they thought was valuable. A friend of mine who was called in to help contain the looting told me that there was food left on shelves in grocery stores, yet electronics stores were picked clean. The looting that will take place in the immediate aftermath of any disaster or event probably isn't going to affect most of us. It's the looting, and murders, that will occur in the following days (or weeks if this is a big one) will test us all.
> 
> TK


I took exception to the 'looting for food' thing, too. That's one of the things that inspired my rebuttal to the original UK news article. Naturally, I wrote a 'letter to the editor' of the DailyMail...heh.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

Bob_W_in_NM said:


> Anarchy? I believe this country is just a matter of days away from cannibalism due to the societal breakdown in this country (in "normal" times).
> 
> Anybody here cooked a missionary lately? Perhaps someone ought to start a thread for recipes using the "other white meat".
> 
> Bob



This sentiment is more common than many realize. Over recent years, I've seen polls that weigh so heavily towards this slant, that I am seriously considering prepping for that possibility...

I am stocking up on theatrical make up to make myself look as unappetizing as possible to wannabe cannibals...One look at me, and they'll go, "ick"!

There just might be a fine line with that idea, though. Some may shoot me, thinking to put me outta my misery. LOL!


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

texican said:


> I've always heard no country was more than three days away from anarchy.
> There is always going to be looting by the lower classed people, anytime they think they can get away with it.
> 
> That's why most of us prep... we know that when it comes down to a shtf scenario, it's too late to expect success in prepping, once the 'cat' is out of the bag...


Prepping for anarchy can be







...extremely challenging, even for old seasoned cats like us.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

otobesane1 said:


> Great post, however, I would take exception with the the characterization that people were looting for food. Most of the "looting" was done by thugs "stealing" anything they thought was valuable. A friend of mine who was called in to help contain the looting told me that there was food left on shelves in grocery stores, yet electronics stores were picked clean. The looting that will take place in the immediate aftermath of any disaster or event probably isn't going to affect most of us. It's the looting, and murders, that will occur in the following days (or weeks if this is a big one) will test us all.
> 
> TK


That's exactly what I was thinking as I read the article, too. I saw endless footage of people running out of stores with wide screen TVs and boom boxes, and bicycles, not bags of rice or medical supplies.


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## Shinsan (Jul 11, 2006)

"I saw endless footage of people running out of stores with wide screen TVs and boom boxes, and bicycles, not bags of rice or medical supplies."

They probably just needed to see or hear the news about what was happening downtown.


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## Shinsan (Jul 11, 2006)

Prepping for anarchy can be ...extremely challenging, _*even for old seasoned cats like us.*_

 That's _terrible_....I resemble that remark.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Shinsan said:


> "I saw endless footage of people running out of stores with wide screen TVs and boom boxes, and bicycles, not bags of rice or medical supplies."
> 
> They probably just needed to see or hear the news about what was happening downtown.



Haha, yeah. There was no electricity for months in some areas, so I hope they stole batteries too. Or maybe they used the bicycle to generate some electricity?


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2008)

This article is conflating two different scenario types together and treating it as one.

What are the types of scenarios that would cause truck fuel to run out all at once so that all food deliveries would simply stop in one day?

Or even in seven days?

These would be infrastructure wrecking scenarios such as Hurricane Katrina and what happened to our petroleum infrastructure on the U.S. Gulf Coast, warfare, that sort of thing.

Merely rising fuel costs would not cause food supplies to run out all at once. They would slowly dwindle as the prices of food rose along with the fuel. The food would be there all the way until no one could afford to buy or produce it any longer.

"Three days until rioting" is for breakdown and wide-scale warfare scenarios. When Russia and China begin cramming population into bomb shelters it's going to be blitzkkrieg time on American supermarkets. Not "I can't afford to fill my gas tank so I'm going to loot the local supermarket." Now there are other scenarios that would cause the local electronics and liquor stores to be looted as we saw after the Rodney King riots and Hurricanes Katrina, Andrew, and so on.

The slow squeeze is on RIGHT NOW. There will be times it will be more readily apparent than other times but it is on right now. There is still time to prepare for all who want to, but the longer you wait the more it will cost you to buy it all. The longer you wait to learn to produce some of your own food the more pressure you will feel as you're scaling the learning curve. If you don't think there is a learning curve then you're way behind already.

.....Alan.


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## michiganfarmer (Oct 15, 2005)

If the cops are busy with rioting people then they arent going to be harrassing me about asking thier permission to build a barn on my own land.


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## Geary_Johns (Oct 27, 2007)

CajunSunshine said:


> Severe disasters are often followed by looters and other two-legged animals who purposely track storms and other natural disasters.
> 
> Armed-to-the-teeth thugs and looters are not far behind any major crisis, anywhere. They are equal opportunity workers. Some are highly organized and brutally efficient, and will travel long distances to wait for opportunities such as this...
> 
> ...


While the article makes good points, and I agree that society is only a few meals away from anarchy I have to cry bull on the above statements.

I have made a career in dealing with the two-legged cattle, eight years in the US Army as military police and scout reconnaissance, and twenty-four years so far with the Tulsa Police Dept as patrol officer, disaster response team member, and intelligence analyst. I spend many hours keeping up with the various Intel sources that cross my desk and email box. I have responded to numerous disaster scenes including Katrina, and through all of this over the years have not seen a shred of a hint that there are organized groups that move into position and set in motion operations to loot, steal, rape, pillage, and burn. Itâs all done by the folks that live there.

That said, I agree with the sentiments posted here that the world we know is changing. It is going to call for a massive realignment of our culture and everything we know in order to survive. We as a world society are at the end of the paved âeasy streetâ and itâs turning into a ârutted dirt trackâ. Being ahead of the curve is going to include more than prepping by acquiring supplies. We will have to switch back to the small village concept, where most goods and services are provided locally. Our standard of living will have to lessen back to pre industrial America. Excess and leisure will no longer exist. 

Our culture has over the past five or six decades changed from the âGreatest Generationâ to the laziest, most self-centered, I deserve it mentality. An entitlement culture that will explode when it is faced with hard times. Rather than rolling up its sleeves and going to work, it will act like a spoiled brat and loot and riot. Itâs not the entitlement culture that I fear, but the governmental backlash in response to their actions. If you live in a small town or can relocate to one now would be the time to do so, a place out in the country would be better. Add books and knowledge to your prep list, learn how to do for your self and hand make as much as possible. 

At this point Iâll tip my hat and say, âLuck to yaâ.
Geary


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## Shinsan (Jul 11, 2006)

I agree 99% with those last two paragraphs, Geary.
The bit I don't think is necessarily correct is: "Our standard of living will have to lessen back to pre industrial America. Excess and leisure will no longer exist."
Oh sure, we may have to survive without the excesses of modern day society, but a return to Smalltown America and the close knit community may actually bring about a better standard of living by bettering the quality of people's lives. People may begin to experience 'real' leisure when they are forced away from the TV and computer games and involve themselves with more practical things, hobbies, and involvement with their neighbours and the larger community. Well, we can certainly hope so.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

> Originally Posted by CajunSunshine
> 
> Severe disasters are often followed by looters and other two-legged animals who purposely track storms and other natural disasters.
> 
> ...





Geary_Johns said:


> ... I have to cry bull on the above statements.
> 
> I...have not seen a shred of a hint that there are organized groups that move into position and set in motion operations to loot, steal, rape, pillage, and burn. *Itâs all done by the folks that live there*.




Yes, in the televised New Orleans area, much of the looting damage was done by those who did not, or could not evacuate.

That's not what I was referring to.

A noxious mix of both locals and out of staters did a mess of dirty work, over a three-state region. A major and widespread event is not the same as a localized one. Thugs know this.

After Katrina, there were far too many eyewitnesses in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama who saw SUVloads and carloads of thugs with out of state license plates exiting their vehicles, doing their 'thang' and leaving. 

I was also there, and I did not hallucinate what I personally saw and went through. Neither did scores of other people over a widespread area. 

The police were stretched so thin that not a single officer was seen for over three weeks, in many places. Just what do you suppose will happen in a situation like that? Can you visualize flies on...? 

So many empty houses! Like grapes ripe for the picking. 

Of course, more than a few 'forward thinking' out of state thugs were there! The local BGs in the rural and suburban areas did not have the whole entire playing field to themselves, especially not one so rich and easy...

It is a commonly known fact that opportunities for looting are greatest after any _truly severe and widespread_ disaster. Both local _and_ out of town thugs know this. Smaller local disasters generally have a faster emergency response time, and do not usually attract out of state thugs. Widespread disasters such as this are another story.

Not all of the out of state 'visitors' were savage thugs.

Immediately after the hurricane blew through, there were out of staters picking through the debris, and hauling out truckloads of salvaged goods...before the owners of the damaged homes could return. According to their license plates, they were not local boys. Even the small time crooks smelled opportunity...

I remember reading an article about this a couple of years ago...it came complete with pictures and interviews. The world 'vultures' (and worse) came to mind when I read it. 

The moral of this post is that not everyone can be everywhere and see everything...and just because you and yours didn't see it, does not mean it didn't happen. 

As I mentioned in my original blog article...

_"... there were places where there was no anarchy to speak of, but rather a walking-dead kind of numbness, an unreal-ness to it all..."_

Not every place was affected to the degree I wrote about, but a LOT of people darned sure saw the things that I mentioned in this thread, and more.

For quite some time after Hurricane Katrina blew through, gunfire could be heard off and on, all night long...every night, in more than a few places throughout Louisiana and Mississippi. 

In all my years of living in Hurricane Country, a half century's worth, I have NEVER seen or heard of anything like this. But then, there never was a Katrina. She was different than all the other 'canes that I've ever known. In size and temperament, she was an accurate snapshot of not only a SHTF situation, but a TEOTWAWKI situation as well. (Newbies, see definitions below.)

That's why we're here on this forum, to prepare for a variety of things, including really widespread Katrina-style messes. 

Notice the term _widespread,_ which is totally different than the localized stuff that most people are familiar with.

Y'know, Mark Twain used to like to say "A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way."

Because most people are totally clueless what it is like to carry a cat of this size and viciousness, I feel that it is only right to try to warn you. In a truly widespread or prolonged (natural or manmade) SHTF situation, things will likely get much uglier than you expect them to.

But hey, don't take my word for it. There are many other first hand accounts of widespread messes to look at....in history books, in blogs, news reports, interviews, etc. etc.

I knew when I wrote this, that some would continue to float down a river called Denial...but I had also hoped that some of you might 'get it' and be better prepared because of it.

--Sharon


For those who are not familiar with the acronyms: SHTF = Stuff Hitting The Fan, and TEOTWAWKI = The End Of The World As We Know It (a big change in the world), and BG = Bad Guys


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

I've been reading this thread with interest since it got posted. I have a couple of questions:

PCS, exactly where in Mississippi were you? For how long? Where were you when Katrina made landfall?

I'm not sure how people were getting in to carry out truckloads of stuff because the roads were blocked in most areas. Rescue and relief trucks were having a hard time getting in, much less getting out.

It'd really help for me to know where you were so I can get a better picture before I say anything else.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

A series of unfortunate events found me trapped near Picayune, MS, when the eye of the hurricane passed over and I remained at that location for over a week. I have friends and family scattered throughout Louisiana and Mississippi, as well.

Local boys (good and bad alike) had chainsaws and chains. I'm sure the petty and not-so-petty thieves brought chainsaws and chains, as well. 

I would hope that the rescue and relief trucks had chainsaws, too.

Logically, I would assume that the least damaged areas were the most attractive to out of state thieves to begin with, until the more heavily damaged areas could be easily reached. Naturally, local thieves hit first.

For months afterward, the things I wrote of were also noted by more than a few individuals throughout the three state area. I am sure if you dig hard and long enough, you'll find a few other personal eyewitness accounts if you don't believe me, which apparently you don't. So to you, I recommend that you spend time with internet search engines. Mr. Google can be your friend. 

I remember for about a year afterwards, the stories were abundantly distributed throughout various blogs, photojournals, websites, etc. As time passed, many of the links were broken or otherwise defunct. But even now, you should be able to find a few. Keep looking, you'll find some real dirt, I am sure. 

While you're Googling, check out the photos of the many, many anti-looter signs put up by armed citizens that patrolled their own neighborhoods. You know, the 'You loot, we shoot" variety. Some were quite original.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

When my little sister evacuated out of Galveston a couple of years ago due to a hurricane, she said the bridge was as jammed coming in as it was going out .. the incoming side being filled with unmarked moving vans and trucks. A huge number of people came back from the evacuation to discover their homes had been cleaned out. 

Ever read "Lucifer's Hammer"? It's probably the most realistic depiction of a global disaster that I've read or seen. 

As to those of you who don't think the UK or Europe will survive ... think about how many disasters they've made it through over the last 3000 years.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

Oh, I'm not questioning that there WAS looting, just you seem to be making it sound a lot more widespread than it really was. I also have friends and family that stretches from Bayou la Batre, AL to Port Arthur, TX with the majority of them living in the most heavily hit areas of South Mississippi and Arabi/Chalmette.

I can't speak for Louisiana or areas north of I-10, but I can voice an opinion on the MS Coast south of I-10.

I was there 12 days after the storm in Long Beach and stayed for weeks. By that time we got to the Coast, the CBs had long since had the most heavily damaged areas razor wired off limits to any one but residents - and it stayed that way for months. It was difficult for residents to get back in, much less anyone with chainsaws and chains with the intent of looting. I had to get passes from the Police Dept. to go South of the tracks in February of 2006. They had ALL of the crossings blocked or guarded.

I'm certainly not wanting to get into a discussion over whose sources and observations are more legit, and I don't have any info on Picayune except that was where my cousins from Chalmette settled in after they realized they wouldn't be moving back to Arabi. Maybe where you were was a different scenario than where I was.

I have many connections in Waveland, Bay St. Louis, Pass Christian, Long Beach, Gulfport and Biloxi. There was spotty looting and a handful of thieving types, but it was not the predominant atmosphere in those areas. For the most part, those are "tight" communities that went through Camille in 1969 which destroyed much of the exact same areas as Katrina. Katrina was far worse, but South MS hasn't forgotten Camille either. Neighbors and neighborhoods worked together to protect their property. There weren't shoot outs or gun fire every night or people hauling truckloads of goods out of most of these areas. Citizens patrolled their own neighborhoods to help alleviate the burden on LE.

I worked for the Sun Herald in Biloxi for 10 years. I talked to both people I knew there and LE in at least 3 of the towns on the Coast. Most of the patrolling was preventative in nature.

There were some thefts of fuel and generators and other petty theft in some areas, but north of the tracks, most houses were still at least locked and secured and where houses were still livable, people came back pretty quickly to take care of their property. Everybody puts up the "You loot, I shoot" signs... mainly because there ain't a lot else to do. All you got is time on your hands after a hurricane of that magnitude.

There is always going to be a certain segment of the population that will try to find a way to profit off of others bad luck or a disaster, but I have a real problem with painting a scenario to be far worse than it was. It wasn't anarchy in MS. It wasn't scary or dangerous. 

It's good to be aware and take precautions before and after a severe disaster, but sensationalizing for the sake of fear mongering is another thing entirely. There is no time a community comes together more than when faced with the type of destruction Katrina left in her wake.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Ernie said:


> When my little sister evacuated out of Galveston a couple of years ago due to a hurricane, she said the bridge was as jammed coming in as it was going out .. the incoming side being filled with unmarked moving vans and trucks. A huge number of people came back from the evacuation to discover their homes had been cleaned out.
> 
> Ever read "Lucifer's Hammer"? It's probably the most realistic depiction of a global disaster that I've read or seen.
> 
> As to those of you who don't think the UK or Europe will survive ... think about how many disasters they've made it through over the last 3000 years.


I've read Lucifers Hammer several times... wish they'd make it into a movie, without 'sanitizing' it...

I agree, that the UK and Europe will survive any catastrophe... just not so sure that the human population will... of course, there'll still be a population there, even under the 'worstest' of scenarios... but it might be a pop. close to what it would have been four thousand years ago...

Having watched the history channel show a couple months ago, about what would happen if humans simply disappeared, and the consequences thereof, it's sorta scary imagining France, on the west coast, having so many nuclear power plants... if theres not someone there to maintain them, they will meltdown, and irradiate the country, and eventually the continent...


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## brreitsma (Jan 14, 2003)

> If the cops are busy with rioting people then they arent going to be harrassing me about asking thier permission to build a barn on my own land.


That is one thing I have thought before. Wide spread chaos can bring about an overall increase in personal freedom and liberty as enforcement authorities have resources only to deal with the most pressing matters and have to basically let anything thats not life or death type situation slide.

It has been said that if bad times truly hit there would be more truly affordable housing even compared to income then what there is now. Regulations and restrictions are tight in many places but if those enforceing them were strained a lot of unused garages would be added unto and fixed up for living as the owners would see oppurtunity. There would be so many things like this springing up during this time that even after regulatory agencies got on a better footing they would hardly be able to put a dent in it.

Same goes for food. A lot of people would love to be able to truly live completely off their land. In a case where regulatory infrastructure was barely limping markets would be freer. Just as in many countries small farmers here could butcher at home and bring the fresh meat to market. No cost of processing being done in a licensed facility in the way. You could milk your cows and bring the fresh milk right to market. You wouldn't need to meet costly requirments to take homemade butter and cheese to market either. You could bake and cook at home and a couple days a week maybe go to a more populated area and have a corner food stand or bring a grill out by an intersection and grill your own butchered animals taking in a nice amount. YES IF ENFORCEMENT INFRASTRUCTURE WAS WEAKENED YOU TRULY COULD MAKE A FULL AND COMPLETE LIVING OFF YOUR HOMESTEADING EFFORTS.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

brreitsma said:


> That is one thing I have thought before. Wide spread chaos can bring about an overall increase in personal freedom and liberty as enforcement authorities have resources only to deal with the most pressing matters and have to basically let anything thats not life or death type situation slide.


That hasn't been my experience or understanding. 

What seems to happen more is that cops see you out in your field and say, "you know, last week we got shot at by a farmer and this guy is a farmer so we better put a few rounds into him just in case."

Soldiers and law enforcement tend to lock down _everybody_. It's not that they're going to say, "Farmer Jones is out there in the sticks so we don't need to worry about him." They're going to say, "Better go round up Farmer Jones and bring him here so we don't need to worry about him."


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

JGex said:


> Neighbors and neighborhoods worked together to protect their property. There weren't shoot outs or gun fire every night or people hauling truckloads of goods out of most of these areas. Citizens patrolled their own neighborhoods to help alleviate the burden on LE.
> 
> 
> ...but I have a real problem with painting a scenario to be far worse than it was. It wasn't anarchy in MS. It wasn't scary or dangerous.
> ...



This is highly insulting. I did not say the whole entire area was blanketed in anarchy, nor did I say that there was gunfire heard everywhere. 

BUT, there were more than enough _pockets_ of anarchy and lawlessness sprinkled over a widespread three state area to make it 'dangerous and scary' enough for those unfortunate enough to have been there and experienced it. 

Apparently you missed this in my posts...I will quote some of them again here for you.



> True, *there were places where there was no anarchy to speak of*, but rather a walking-dead kind of numbness, an unreal-ness to it all. Nothing even remotely like this had ever happened before.
> 
> ...not just in New Orleans. Surprisingly *some* small towns and rural areas were affected also.
> 
> ...just as soon as people realized there were no real boundaries, little to no law-and-order, or communication...that's when anarchy quicky broke loose *in places.*


And yes, people heard nightly gunfire, in both Louisiana and Mississippi. *Too many people heard it,* for this to be refuted like you're attempting to do.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

Of course there are a lot of things that never 'make the news'. Everyone knows that.

BTW, this was posted by a member of another board...



> PCS, tell that OK officer to talk to the LSP. When I was down there after Katrina I talked to the son of a good friend who is a trooper. He had first hand knowledge of out of state gangs, (he named Detroit, Chicago, and New York), that were down for the looting. It common knowledge from those that were there, but you will never see it on the news.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

CajunSunshine said:


> Of course there are a lot of things that never 'make the news'. Everyone knows that.
> 
> BTW, this was posted by a member of another board...


Maybe you didn't quite get my "drift" on my getting news in the Coastal area. There are a LOT of things that as a newspaper worker I was aware of that didn't make it into the news. Besides working at the paper, I also owned a screen print shop in GP where I printed t-shirts and jackets for the MSHP, GPPD, the jail, the Police Academy in LB, LBPD and the Harrison County Sheriff's Dept. My ex FIL is the city attorney for BSL with his brother being the city attorney for Waveland. My brother was a volunteer FD member and is very well seated in the Good ol' boy network of the Coast. We have friends - GOOD friends - who work LE and at FDs on the Coast. We were getting the dirt and the "news" that wasn't being reported in the news outlets.

I didn't say there wasn't gunfire at all... it just wasn't every night, all night or widespread in the Coastal cities of Mississippi. Some of it wasn't thugs at all, but residents. I have friends and family that were in EACH township from the day after Katrina hit and have heard their accounts... and gunfire and thugs in trucks and cars from out of state looting in the hardest hit areas are not a part of their stories. The things you cite were more isolated incidents and happened in neighborhoods that were rife with crime BEFORE Katrina hit is all I am saying.

Be insulted if you want, I already said I wasn't arguing that there WAS looting; just that the way you have it worded makes it sound far worse than what it was. A disaster as huge as Katrina should be enough in itself to get people to listen and prepare better. There's really no need to make it sound worse than it actually was to get people's attention, IMO.


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## MountAiry (May 30, 2007)

I read that article the other day on a friend's blog and thought it was great! Perhaps it will get more people to prepare for emergencies.


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## Geary_Johns (Oct 27, 2007)

CajunSunshine said:


> Of course there are a lot of things that never 'make the news'. Everyone knows that.
> 
> BTW, this was posted by a member of another board...


I rubbed shoulders with LSP, NOPD, US Army, and a number of other units from across the US that responded while I was deployed there. Lots of stuff happened that probably will never see the light of day. The only street gangs that Intel come through on were local gangs, itâs possible that some had affiliations with others from named cities, but no hordes of looting street gangs arrived in the op area to set up shop.

In the end I know what I saw, was briefed on, and reviewed after action reports on. You believe what you believe, and were told. Lets leave it at that and agree to disagree.

Geary


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

JGex said:


> Be insulted if you want, I already said I wasn't arguing that there WAS looting...



No one wants to be insulted, but it's hard not to be when you peppered your posts with degrading insults such as these, and more. 

*"...but sensationalizing for the sake of fear mongering"

"There's really no need to make it sound worse than it actually was to get people's attention..." *




In my defense of these horrid accusations, I'd like to point out that it was two years before I could bring myself to even write in a public blog about my (and other's) experiences with Katrina. 

Out of over 70 articles in my one year old blog, _only four posts are related to Katrina._ Out of those, only _*two*_ relatively short articles provided any details such as the ones you see in this thread.

(Anyone who has read or followed even just a few of my thousands of posts in survival forums on the internet, certainly would not ever have the impression that I am a 'fear monger, or attention getter'. To the contrary, I have been fairly closemouthed about the topic in general. 'taint easy for me to write about!)

Why did I even bother to write about it at all? Not for the reasons you accuse me of! (You really owe me an apology, dear.)

I posted my anarchy observations on my blog because I genuinely care what happens to good folks (the rest of the blog is also a good indication of that). In the process, I discovered that some people seemed to think, "That could never happen in my area!" 

Perhaps some of you also may be thinking that your 'area of operations' could not possibly ever have the ingredients for anarchy. For these reasons, I have shared a few things here to show what can happen anywhere in any widespread SHTF situation. Anarchy can happen anywhere that law and order is lost, and given enough space and time, it can spill over into the 'best neighborhoods' . Even yours.

I am SO glad that all those on the list of your impressive "connections" (The "good ol' boy network of the Coast", as you call them... "the city attorney for BSL, the city attorney for Waveland...the MSHP, GPPD, the jail, the Police Academy in LB, and your brother who "was a volunteer FD member and is very well seated in the...blahblahblah"), and you, your friends and relatives did not experience what I wrote about.

Of course not! The presence of law and order was strongly in you and your family and friend's favor. But, law and order _in the form of neighborhood patrols OR uniformed men_ elsewhere was stretched mighty thin, and many others certainly did not enjoy this luxury, and paid dearly for not having it. 

I mentioned earlier in this thread that _"in size and temperament, Katrina was an accurate SNAPSHOT of not only a SHTF situation, but a TEOTWAWKI situation as well."_

Because for many, it was.

Yes, these pockets of anarchy were truly horrible and yes, they were widespread, in the sense that they were _scattered_ for hundreds of miles throughout the three state area. Certainly not widespread in the blanket sense you seem to be taking it.

Please don't add degrading insult to injury the way you did. 'taint right, or nice! 

I hope you are not tempted to refute and insult this poster as well...but no, wait! This is about TEXAS, not Mississippi....never mind that looting by out of state thieves occurred in your fair state, too. Not everyone was as blind to it, though.



Ernie said:


> When my little sister evacuated out of Galveston a couple of years ago due to a hurricane, she said the bridge was as jammed coming in as it was going out .. the incoming side being filled with unmarked moving vans and trucks. A huge number of people came back from the evacuation to discover their homes had been cleaned out.



You said that you couldn't speak for Louisiana or areas north of I-10, but can voice an opinion on the the area south of I-10. 

_Mais cher! _ You certainly did that, and then some!


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

I hope this thread was not a total waste of my time, because at this point, I hafta say I sincerely regret ever bringing it up here.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Cajun, don't regret it....it's always interesting to read someone else's ideas, even if they disagree with you. I know I've posted threads or responses that were immediate thread-killers, lol.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Cajun - hang around please. There are various opinions, and if out of 50 plus people reading the forum at most times, and only two disagree, that's a really good percentage.

And as much as I appreciate your view point, they have their point of view and stated it civilly. Different points of view, and people being in different areas see different things. 

But I really appreciate this thread, all points of view - it makes us think about situations.

Angie


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Heh, Cajun. Develop a thick skin if you want to stick around on any public forum. My wife participates in a knitting forum elsewhere, as well as a classical homeschooling forum and she reports that the namecalling, illogic, and insults that occasionally occur HERE are naught but a collegial debate compared to what those other boards will descend to. How you can get into a knock-down-drag-out fight over KNITTING never ceases to amaze me.

You'll never get apologies, you'll never get acknowledgement, but you can always take away the satisfaction of making a well-formed argument. Debate is the forge that tempers our ideals.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Oh, to add my own beliefs to the whole ânine meals from anarchyâ concept â¦ I think thatâs a natural and good thing. Anarchy is little more than a reshuffling of the deck. For those that are prepared and can quickly form ranks with other like-minded individuals, it is perhaps not such a bad thing.

Consider that the basic reason people will willingly form into a social contract called âgovernmentâ is to secure their property and lives (Thomas Hobbes). Wouldnât failure of the food supply constitute a âbreach of contractâ in that regard? Iâm not talking about people waiting for a handout, but rather hard-working people who have been led to believe that so long as they have a job and draw a salary and have money in their pocket that food will be available to them. The person who is getting a handout always secretly believes that the gravy train is going to end, and deservedly so, but the hard-working wage earner will feel cheated and betrayed by the very system. 
Nine meals is a very long time, especially for a people that have always had plenty. 
Hunger exposes all of the cracks in the inequalities. Look at the bread riots in France proceeding the French Revolution. Look at what the dictators of Rome provided to their citizens to keep them pacified (bread and circuses). If everyone is equally starving, then there wonât be chaos. However, history shows us that when the inevitable happens, nobody suffers equally. The rich can get by longer, trading money for food until the money runs out. The farmers sometimes have food, but not always, and if the mob determines that the problem is the fault of the producers, then they turn on rural people with a vengeance. In 1891 in Russia, city workers roamed the countryside murdering any farmers they encountered after the grain harvest failed. 

I do not believe in the inherent nobility of man. The good and chivalrous are few and far between. Ever watched at an airport when a flight gets canceled and the attendant announces that another nearby plane going the same place has 4 seats left? We riot every year at Christmas over the latest fad toy at Walmart. Imagine those scenes, and then imagine that to a magnitude of ten. Rumor will replace fact, and the mob will move on rumor. Your best, greatest hope is to distance yourselves from the mob and provide for your own needs.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Well said Ernie.


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## soulsurvivor (Jul 4, 2004)

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&resnum=1&ncl=1220740642

Maybe I overlooked it, but haven't seen anyone here mention the huge truck strike that's taking place overseas. I also hate to be one to add fuel to the fire of this debate, but there it is. Anarchy presenting everywhere.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

Well I guess this will blow my chances of ever signing up on the Mrs Survival forum, but I am going to post one more time on this as I don't feel like you are hearing what I'm saying, Cajun.

I've said at least twice that I am not disputing that there was looting or that there were people trying to find a way to profit off of others bad fortune. I actually agree with your blog post on some points, but it came off sounding like Jericho instead of Katrina. When you say "pockets of anarchy," I'm not really sure what you mean, but I know what I take anarchy to mean and sorry, but I just didn't see it and I was in a far worse hit area than you were.

Yes, some idiot killed his sister over a bag of ice, but there wasn't unbridled lawlessness in the 3 south Mississippi counties hit the hardest by Katrina and I am willing to lay money on there not having been much in Picayune either. People were in shock. Your description, "a walking-dead kind of numbness," is fairly dead-on, but "Armed-to-the-teeth thugs and looters" is not. Trucks were not coming in fast and furiously looting neighborhoods. And LE didn't just disappear, they were dealing with their own losses. 

Yes, people were cranky and irritable and there were ISOLATED incidents of people getting into fights and being jerks, but that ain't anarchy. They may have been fighting over water and ice in NOLA, but there were palettes of water and drinks and food and clothes left unguarded in parking lots where people were left to take what they needed on their HONOR in South MS. I know because we had to go get water and ice. Even in Long Beach, which was 40% completely destroyed, the grocery store was re-opened in less than 3 weeks from the date Katrina made landfall. 

Ground Zero was Bay-Waveland where the police in Waveland rode the storm out in the city PD building until the flooding reached the roof. Over 90% of the structures in Waveland were destroyed. Not just flooded, but GONE. The entire city and Bay St. Louis and Pass Christian were for the most part rubble. Rubble, as in there wasn't anything to loot. Within less than 2 weeks after Karina completely destroyed Waveland, the "Waveland Cafe" was set up by the Rainbow Family from Asheville to feed people. You can Google that if you like, Google is your friend. In fact, I'll save you the trouble and give you this link: http://ashevillecommunity.org/hawker/katrina/



> Let me tell you about Waveland MS. Waveland is a small, mostly upper middle class neighborhood that was ground zero for Katrina. The whole down was wiped out by a 30-foot wave that took the town out completely. Almost nothing salvageable was left. Katrina was the great equalizer for this town, making poor and rich equals in the struggle for basic food, shelter, clothing and survival. For reasons I donât fully understand Waveland was almost completely ignored by larger relief groups. The only folks doing any real work were the small, mostly church based, relief groups. There was no sign of the Salvation Army. The only Red Cross presence was trucks picking up foods from other groups and re-distributing it. This seemed like the place we were needed.
> 
> We arrived in the parking lot of a Freds food store and met a local Christian relief group from Bastrop Texas called BCOC http://www.bastropchristianoutreachcenter.org. They were down there, as they said, âto just love on everyone as much as we canâ. That sounds like Rainbow to me. We joined forces in a common goal to serve and help as much as we could. We were two totally different groups united by a common cause. The relationship couldnât have been better. We set up a common serving area but two kitchens, one of BCOC and one Rainbow. After time Rainbows went to the BCOC kitchens and BCOC folks came and helped in the Rainbow Kitchen. We become one together.
> 
> ...


cont....


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

Most of the trucks coming in were filled with supplies to help, not chains and chainsaws to loot. Note that I said "most," OK? Supply trucks had to take back ways in, which could have appeared to be fishy, because some govt agencies were turning the help away. Thank goodness for those good-hearted people that refused to be turned away and came in despite that.

As far as what I was referring to as sensationalizing, here's a sample:



> A noxious mix of both locals and out of staters did a mess of dirty work, over a three-state region. A major and widespread event is not the same as a localized one. Thugs know this.
> 
> After Katrina, there were far too many eyewitnesses in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama who saw SUVloads and carloads of thugs with out of state license plates exiting their vehicles, doing their 'thang' and leaving.


I have out of state tags, and I have an SUV and I hauled a truckload of stuff I had stored at my Mother's home with me when I left. You think maybe some folks want to see the "bad" side of things instead of taking Occam's Razor to the issue? Lots of people who lived on the Coast had relatives from out of state come down. Lots of residents who lost their homes came down and salvaged what they could into rented vehicles or relative's vehicles that had, wait for it.... OUT OF STATE TAGS. "Eyewitnesses" assume they saw looters. The facts point otherwise to it not being looters, but residents who were handling their own business in most cases. Some families (2 that I know) rented box trucks from out of state and loaded up their belongings to be taken to their new homes out of state. Kind of hard to tell "thugs" from "legit residents" when nobody has had a bath for a week, ya know?



> The police were stretched so thin that not a single officer was seen for over three weeks, in many places. Just what do you suppose will happen in a situation like that? Can you visualize flies on...?
> 
> So many empty houses! Like grapes ripe for the picking.


Do you have numbers on how many homes were broken into? Or are you just guessing that with so many empty homes that there must have been rampant break ins?

Yes, LE was stretched thin, but there were many people looking out for neighbors property. Yes, there were armed citizens patrolling neighborhoods. And just so you know, despite our "connections" to LE and other municipal agencies, we didn't get any special treatment or assistance AT ALL. The ones who were on the job were busy with helping the harder hit areas and dealing with the people in shelters. 

Did I even carry a weapon with me when I went down? No, I didn't because there wasn't a need to. The atmosphere was not hostile. 

Again, I'm not disputing that some looting and theft occurred, but I talked to both my brother and my mother yesterday and asked them (again) if they had heard or seen any of the stuff you named and they, like me in the 3 years since Katrina hit, have not heard anything more than what I said in my other posts in that there was some petty theft and looting, but for the most part, people worked together to get their lives back and to salvage what they could from their destroyed homes. Trust me, I wouldn't tell you this if it were not the case.

Understand that part of the reason I am even bothering to discuss this is that I think people need to know the truth and the difference between what was happening in NOLA and what happened on the Coast. I don't have to Google anything to find out what happened, I WAS THERE. 

I didn't insult you personally, and if you took it that way, I'm sorry, but I'm going to stick with my assessment that you are using sensationalistic journalism to make your point when really, you don't need to. Prepare for the worst, expect the best. Greet people as if they are coming to help instead of expecting the worse from them. You might be pleasantly surprised.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

These pictures were taken in Long Beach south of the tracks 2 or 3 weeks after Katrina hit. The streets had already been cleared, but to get down there you needed a pass and you were not allowed to stop your vehicle unless you had a driver's license with an address located south of the tracks on it.

These photos are from the main street and Beach Drive in the town I grew up in and where my immediate family still live. I took the photos from the window of my brother's truck.

The streets on the Coast were being heavily patrolled by military and the body search was still going on. We saw several recovery teams working in piles of rubble looking for dead bodies.


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## mezzogirl (May 25, 2008)

JGex,
When I was in high school, a bunch of us would hop into my car and drive over to Waveland/Long Beach to play in the sand. I recognize one of the buildings in the picture! Wow, it looks like a mac truck drove through it. The lakefront in Mandeville looked the same way. My whole family went through the same ordeal and everything was the same as you described. Everyone was helping everyone. Families were shifting their salvaged things to the house with the least damage. My older sis and her family moved into my mom and dad's house since it just had a few trees laying on it. As I mentioned in an earlier thread- my family has lived in this town since it was totally podunk. There were very few instances of looting there. Mostly, it showed how close the town was. There are still signs of devastation there, but for the most part, everyone has worked together to move on with life. It is still a close-knit community. Thanks for your personal first hand account of the MS coast. I have lots of close friends that live/lived in Slidell who said that it was bad over there, but seeing these pictures... Whatever happened to that little water park at the end of Waveland shoreline, Buccaneer State Park, was it?


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

mezzogirl,

Funny you should ask about Buccaneer.... it was the front page story in the Sun-Herald two days ago:

http://www.sunherald.com/pageone/story/612214.html

My Dad was born in Slidell... it was hit pretty hard. 

Like you and your family, my family has lived on the Coast since forever. My GGgrandparents are buried in the Biloxi Cemetary and I have a LOT of family still there. These ARE tight-knit communities with just a few exceptions. 

I just got off the phone with my brother again and he reminded me of something else... we were in contact with people on the Coast the day after Katrina hit, namely my bro's brother-in-law who had to stay because he is the head electrician at the GP airport. 

My brother's house flooded, as did many others, with all of their belongings in it. His BIL went around for the 3 days immediately after the storm and opened all of the windows and doors on the houses of family member's houses that evacuated so they wouldn't be a complete moldy mess when we got there.

And it wasn't just our family doing that, either. Other homes were opened up and left unguarded and didn't get looted or robbed either.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Do you think the different views expressed her are due to different locations?
I mean even in this town and no emergency - there are parts that are not that safe, and other places are safer and less likely to vandals.

Angie


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

AngieM2 said:


> Do you think the different views expressed her are due to different locations?
> I mean even in this town and no emergency - there are parts that are not that safe, and other places are safer and less likely to vandals.
> 
> Angie


There are some low-income areas in North Gulfport and Mosspoint (read Projects) where there was some looting in nearby businesses, but this was exceedingly short-lived as LE moved in FAST to shut that down. 

It also helps that there are 2 military bases on the Coast - Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi and the Seabee Base in Gulfport. These guys are prepped and ready to work in the communities on the Coast when a storm hits. Constantine wire was going up the next day after the storm.

And if the Coast is a tight-knit community, I gotta tell you that Picayune is just as tight. The reports I have heard coming from there was in reference to the citizens banding together to keep any riff-raff out same as on the Coast. 

Remember, these are still smaller towns and cities and people own guns.... and thieves know that. People will shoot you if you're caught where you aren't supposed to be. They shoot first and ask questions later.

EVERY bad thing gets exaggerated because that's what people feed on. I'm specifically avoiding discussing NOLA here, but the reports coming out of there have been publically acknowledged to have been mostly exaggerations there, too.

Again, I'm not disputing that there were looting or other instances of crime, but it wasn't a doomsday situation. People on the Coast have done that drill, albeit on a smaller scale, many, many times. Most folks know what to do/expect and they just get to it.

Another amazing aspect of the aftermath is that without TV or other entertainment or restaurants, etc., neighbors and neighborhoods actually find the time to reacquaint and get to know each other better. It's a heck of a lot easier for 3 neighbors to work together to get the debris out of the way than it is for each to work alone.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

Like the saying goes, "When the SHTF it will not be distributed evenly".

The areas south of I-10 that that JGex spoke of sustained the most horrific damage imaginable. In the triage of disaster response, it is only natural and right that all points should be in that direction.

And, it is only natural that those areas would also have the benefit of heavy protection by local, state and national law and order forces. SeaBees even! 

To JGex, and all the many, many others who enjoyed the luxury of law and order (friendly neighborhood patrols, police, National Guard, etc.): Do ya think maybe that's why things were relatively calm in your area, with no lootings and such? (Ya think??????????)

Well then, imagine widespread areas with _NO_ friendly neighborhood patrols, no police, no National Guard, no nothing? 

Add to that, _NO_ communications for days and days. No cell, no phone, no internet, no gasoline, no nothing...long enough to be a real problem? The police were stretched so painfully thin, but what did it matter? _No one could call them for help._

Someone on another board noted: 

_"98% of the people follow the rules. Your law enforcement organizations are only designed to deal with that 2%. Ask yourself how long will that 98% follow the rules when that part of the infrastructure is stretched to the breaking point or gone?"_

My point is not to fear monger, but to show how, in places, (in _spots,_ 'k?), things did suddenly go south when the element of law and order was removed entirely, including friendly neighborhood patrols. Not every neighborhood had them, you know. 

BTW, not all anarchy is of Rodney King magnitude. Is that what you are picturing when you hear the word 'anarchy'? 

Anarchy is defined as "a lack of civil disorder or peace: disorder, lawlessness..." I would say any area suffering multiple acts of unchecked lawlessness is suffering from anarchy. This is what many people experienced after Katrina. It was not all warm fuzzy kittens and rainbows for everyone. 

Whether caused by opportunistic coyotes in the aftermath of disasters, too many missed meals, or even something like a judicial decision, anarchy is a funny monkey.

It can be shockingly sudden, too. Concerning the Rodney King riots in LA, another poster nailed that point home:

"I saw many interviews with people living in the neighborhood where most of the looting occurred. They said that the looters were not people angry about the Rodney King verdicts. Many were not even Black. They were mainly _not _poor people. When the police announced they were pulling out of the area, people looted because they could. It is a breakdown of law enforcement, for whatever reason, that leads to looting. When there are no apparent consequences, many people will simply steal whatever they can lay their hands on."



To JGex and all other Mississippians:

It was certainly not my intention to paint the state of Mississippi in a bad light, but to show that trouble certainly did erupt in places in Louisiana, and to a lesser degree, Mississippi and Alabama because of lack of law and order and vital communication. On the brighter side of the coin, I'd like to say that the people of Coastal Mississippi are to be commended for pulling together with a community spirit that is a good model for people everywhere to emulate as a true survival community. 

My entire point of starting this thread is for fellow preppers to see a need to prepare for the possibility of having to deal with sudden anarchy situations (be it large or small ones), where you live or work. People, please don't be too smug or complacent about your disaster preps in this regard. 

I am sorry if I came across as a fear monger. I am not an ogre!

And, no! I am not leaving this forum anytime soon. I enjoy reading (almost) everyone's posts too much, but maybe I'd better stick with the buckets and beans and rice posts for a while?

--Sharon


P.S.

JGex, when you asked me on an open public forum for my "exact location", I didn't say I was IN Picayune, but near it. And, I won't say how near or in which direction, because I'd like to reserve some measure of privacy, 'k?


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

It's nice to have people agree with me... but if I left every place where someone disagreed with me, I'd never be able to visit a public forum.

I agree with some folks on HT on some issues, but vehemently disagree with them on other issues... sometimes on the strangest of points...

So, CajunSunshine, stick around a while....


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

texican said:


> It's nice to have people agree with me... but if I left every place where someone disagreed with me, I'd never be able to visit a public forum.
> 
> I agree with some folks on HT on some issues, but vehemently disagree with them on other issues... sometimes on the strangest of points...
> 
> So, CajunSunshine, stick around a while....


Oh hey, I have no intention of leaving...just that maybe I should stay away from Katrina topics, and stick with buckets and beanfarts and rice posts. LOL

Those who know me know I have a tough enough alligator hide, and it is surprising even me that this topic is still sore. I mean, its been three freaking years since Katrina. 

(PSTD, my friends tell me. Well yes, I guess I do fit some of the symptoms.)

In a serious SHTF situation, I am sure that we'll hafta deal with the effects of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in ourselves, our children, family and friends...

Speaking of PSTD, I am just learning about it, and don't know a lot about it. Maybe some of you don't either. This would be a good subject for another thread. I'll edit this post to give a link to it.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I'm just discovering the joys of PSTD as well. You should check out the "homesteading veterans" forum on this site. I lurk there quite a bit, though I don't post, and there's been lots of helpful advice.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

CajunSunshine said:


> Like the saying goes, "When the SHTF it will not be distributed evenly".
> 
> The areas south of I-10 that that JGex spoke of sustained the most horrific damage imaginable. In the triage of disaster response, it is only natural and right that all points should be in that direction.
> 
> ...


Oh for goodness sake, get over yourself already. There were NG in Poplarville, Picayune, Meridian and another dozen towns in MS the day after the storm hit. Really. And that can be confirmed via Google. 



> Well then, imagine widespread areas with _NO_ friendly neighborhood patrols, no police, no National Guard, no nothing?
> 
> Add to that, _NO_ communications for days and days. No cell, no phone, no internet, no gasoline, no nothing...long enough to be a real problem? The police were stretched so painfully thin, but what did it matter? _No one could call them for help._


We had text communication to the Coast on Tuesday. Are you saying that wasn't possible in Picayune?

p


> Someone on another board noted:
> 
> _"98% of the people follow the rules. Your law enforcement organizations are only designed to deal with that 2%. Ask yourself how long will that 98% follow the rules when that part of the infrastructure is stretched to the breaking point or gone?"_
> 
> ...


Apples and oranges, but I'm certain that those of you who want to see the worst will do so. Yes, there were ISOLATED incidents of crime, but despite the horror you're trying to lay on the situation, MOST people were working to survive, not to profit.




> To JGex and all other Mississippians:
> 
> It was certainly not my intention to paint the state of Mississippi in a bad light, but to show that trouble certainly did erupt in places in Louisiana, and to a lesser degree, Mississippi and Alabama because of lack of law and order and vital communication. On the brighter side of the coin, I'd like to say that the people of Coastal Mississippi are to be commended for pulling together with a community spirit that is a good model for people everywhere to emulate as a true survival community.
> 
> ...


I agree with you on this... prep. be prepared, carry a gun just in case, but for goodness' sake don't assume that every person you encounter is a bad guy. 

I hope you do stick around, Cajun, but expect me to differ with you if/when I feel like you're not being realistic. Understand that is subjective and all of our opinions are subject to being picked apart.




> P.S.
> 
> JGex, when you asked me on an open public forum for my "exact location", I didn't say I was IN Picayune, but near it. And, I won't say how near or in which direction, because I'd like to reserve some measure of privacy, 'k?


Whatever.... I was on Pineville Road in Long Beach. I don't care who knows where I was. If your privacy is that important then OK. Just know I ran those roads as a youth and I know how not scary they are.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

To get this topic back on it's original track (more or less):

*Intense economic anxiety has gripped tens of millions of working Americans.*

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/14/opinion/14herbert.html?th&emc=th


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

Wait! Hold on there for a little minute, Ladycat. 

JGex and me are almost finished with our popcorn....after this post, I am done with this thread.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

QUOTE=JGex;3140647]Oh for goodness sake, get over yourself already. There were NG in Poplarville, Picayune, Meridian and another dozen towns in MS the day after the storm hit. Really. And that can be confirmed via Google. 


The day after? Please consider that because of no communications, not everyone knew this for several days! Some never knew it. The National Guard outside of your area were spread awfully, _awfully_ thin, and I understand a few NG arrived in those named towns to stand *armed guard* over those few pallets of ice... That was wonderful for those in close proximity to them...Naturally it was a different story for those outside of the towns, and also for those in town who couldn't reach the relief efforts. Lots of people did not get to enjoy ice OR water. But that's not the point. 

I think I remember one of your comments how the pallets in your area _didn't even need armed guards?_ (The place already had a heavy presence of police, etc.) Wow! That IS quite a contrast! (But I don't expect you to see that, which is a shame because losing an illusion makes one as wise as finding a truth...)



We had text communication to the Coast on Tuesday. Are you saying that wasn't possible in Picayune?

If there were any individuals with texting abilities, they must have been so few in number, so as to be RARE. Everyone knows that many _thousands_ of people did not have access to communications of any kind. That is SO common knowledge...Y'know, for you to even argue this point, makes me think you're beginning to sound a bit fanatical...Are you trolling this thread now, or what? 


Apples and oranges, but I'm certain that those of you who want to see the worst will do so. Yes, there were ISOLATED incidents of crime, but despite the horror you're trying to lay on the situation, *MOST people were working to survive, not to profit.*

YES! YES! _YES!_ THIS IS SO TRUE! No one has ever, ever refuted this fact!!!!!!!!!!! Are you STILL obsessing about this? Please let it go, lady! 

Here it is, in a nutshell:

I wanted to show how SUDDEN lawlessness can occur, given the right ingredients, and that it does NOT take nine meals to reach that point.

I am saddened that you have completely missed my points, which were NOT to paint your fair state in a bad light, nor to paint the entire tri-state area as a lawless wasteland. 

*(If my writing style is so bad that I have given everyone else this impression, I would appreciate hearing from others in this regard, and I will edit my writing, along with sincere apologies.) * So I don't miss your input, please send a personal message to me here at Homesteading Today, because I am quite done following this thread.

JGex, if I don't hear anything from others, we'll just at least have to 'agree to disagree'.


...but expect me to differ with you if/when I feel like you're not being realistic. Understand that is subjective and all of our opinions are subject to being picked apart.


I certainly don't have a problem with things being picked apart. Those who know me know I enjoy a lively and educational debate. (and the popcorn is pretty good, too!)

But... picked apart to the point of name calling, and dirty insults is not the kind of civilized discussion I am used to. 
 



Whatever.... I was on Pineville Road in *Long Beach.* I don't care who knows where I was. If your privacy is that important then OK. Just know I ran those roads as a youth and I know how not scary they are.

For all practical purposes, Long Beach was a long way off from where I was. Can't we at least agree that we were in two completely different locations? And that you wear a silly hat? 


I hope you do stick around, Cajun...

Why? 


If this particular thread keeps up, all ya'll will hafta lock me up in a dungeon (I am sure JGex has one!) and feed me fish head soup and bones...

... because I'm starting to get a little wild eyed and crazy in here...

JGex...you and me, and this particular topic is....aarrrgggh....

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*(LOL)*
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Please don't make me post again!!!!!!


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

Don't regret it. If it helps one person, that's a good thing and you've given me food for thought and I thank you. :goodjob:



CajunSunshine said:


> I hope this thread was not a total waste of my time, because at this point, I hafta say I sincerely regret ever bringing it up here.


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