# Let's Talk About This



## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I know our recent declaration of Guard Animals to be for all guarding animals has upset quite a few. I know many of you have been around for a long, LONG time. The decision came about after quite a few back-to-back disagreements, and was actually debated by several moderators before coming down to this.


I don't want anyone to leave. Let me explain our stance.


I went to the first page of threads and saw 3 threads not related to LGD's out of 25...and one of those was about Llamas. I counted the one thread since the dogs are being bred for the purpose of LGD; it may not be dog breed some will choose, but it is still LGD related. There was one on the previous page out of 25, 2 if you count the same poster coming back to apologize for how out of hand her first one got. So a total of 4, perhaps 5 out of 50.

This isn't really enough to sustain a subforum. The vast majority of questions are related to LGD's, and I am sure will continue to be about LGD's. Those with questions about guard dogs, farm dogs and so forth might not fit neatly into the pets forum where by and large the dogs are just that...pets.

If the questions begin to lean more about guard animals in general, we still are not ruling out a subforum. We simply cannot justify it at this time.

I want you guys to stay, to share your knowledge and education with LGD's. However, I need to ask that you open your minds to other scenarios. If you cannot respond politely to a unrelated guarding animal question, ignore the thread; there are others who will respond. As I pointed out, these are few and far between and can easily just be overlooked. Stay with what makes you comfortable.

I know that many of you have dedicated much time to the pure LGD's, may hours of work, selective breeding and so forth. I want and NEED you to stay to share that. As for what doesn't interest you, skip over it. You can mouse over the thread before even opening it and see in the first sentence or so if it interests you.

I wanted to add something brought to my attention. This is NOT a place to discuss fighting any dogs; any, ever, at all. Period. If anyone sees anything that doesn't belong here, please PM me so I can take care of it. 

I will now open the floor to comments and questions...but let's keep it nice and polite, ok? No insults and no snarkiness, deal? I value your input, this is YOUR forum, but politeness must reign.

(beccachow takes a deeeeeep breath)...Ok, let's talk. Keep it nice to each other and to your poor frazzled moderators.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

I didn't realize this was a problem. 

Personally, I don't mind people posting about Llamas and donkeys used as livestock protectors. I don't read every thread posted anyway.

If someone came up with a BIG CHICKEN that whipped coyotes and wolves, I'd like to know about it.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I am not forced to read or respond to a thread I have no interest in just because it happens to share a space on a page with other threads I may be interested in.

I don't see the problem.
Y'all give us a nice place to visit and learn. Thanks


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

@Cheryl, exactly. I WANT others to learn from the years and years of experience here, and hope our more experienced contributers can just look past a thread that doesn't interest them exactly. However, there are those with guard dogs/farm dogs that are just that...and they come here for help as well. I hope to tap the experience here to help them as well. If I had a question (which, ironically, I DO!) about a dog I own and her interactions with the animals and how to potentially STOP unwanted interactions, I would look to the vast wealth of knowledge here first.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

I want to give a big THANK YOU!!! to the moderators for their firm stand on this issue.


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## TriWinkle (Oct 2, 2011)

Judy in IN said:


> I didn't realize this was a problem.
> 
> Personally, I don't mind people posting about Llamas and donkeys used as livestock protectors. I don't read every thread posted anyway.
> 
> If someone came up with a BIG CHICKEN that whipped coyotes and wolves, I'd like to know about it.


If I had a dog named "Big Chicken" and he whipped up on coyotes and wolves, would that count?:grin:


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

Thank you. Some of us have need for both LGD's and general farm guards, therefore it is helpful to have advice from experts on both sides. I have gleaned great information here that helped so much with raising our Pyr. I have also gleaned great information about our other dogs as well since they are personal and general property guards. A farm has many different working type of dogs and I appreciate being able to come here and get information about all of them. Kat


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

People try to make the list something it aint, they need to get over it.
I'm sure the non-lgd watching over the 3 year old child out in the yard is just as important (if not more so) to that child's parents. As a pure or crossbred lgd watching over a goatherd is to that farmer!
If a donkey can guard your sheep, or an alpaca can guard your house, they are still guarding what is important to the owner.
Do you need sub forums for each animal I think not, ya dont have to read, ya dont have to post. 
Now this is ment to be funny Rob Roy (the author) said it to me one day
Ex spurts:gaptooth:
Ex is someone you dont want to be with.
Spurt is a drip under pressure
(so ya got a drip ya dont want.)


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## TriWinkle (Oct 2, 2011)

In all seriousness, I have never seen a situation where forum members tried to insist that a forum was only for a specific topic *after already being told by the mods it wasn't*!! It beats all I've ever seen.eep:

I've seen situations (other forums) where the mods have come in and had to remind the members the purpose of the forum and to stay on topic...Never seen anything like this.

I haven't seen anyone advocating dog fighting on here. I've seen people refer to the "gameness" of an animal, but no one promoting that we get the pits ready and see who's got the better dog.gre:

As for "needing" some of these posters...Who does? Because if y'all are in need of the ones whining :sob:, then enjoy whatever they turn this place into, but don't count on many wanting to stick around to see it (myself included). :catfight:

"Welcome to the Guard Animals form. Got an interesting story/experience to share? Tell us all about it!! But only if it's about an LGD, otherwise get lost!!":duel:

It's been mentioned that this section is a sub-forum of the livestock forum...So what? So is the pet forum!!! So whether not non-LGD breeds are discussed here or in the pet forum it's still in *LIVESTOCK!*:bdh:

Mods, y'all are doing a fine job. Keep it up.

To summarize the above, for those who don't want to read all my "pearls of wisdom" :nana::nana::nana:


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I really appreciate this.

Personally, I don't _want_ an LGD, I don't _need_ an LGD, and I feel it is as un-natural and unfair to keep an LGD on a bitty 10 acre, 5 goat place as it is to keep an Alaskan Husky as a house-pet. They're not bred for it, and they're not happy. 
Case in point, Lilly, a neighbor's Great Pyr, who goes through 2, 4' fences to live at my house this past week, because I have baby goats. It is her instinct to do so, she is a good dog and God Almighty told her she _must_ protect baby goats and she's not going to let little things like fences or the fact she doesn't live here stop her.
Happily, unlike some, she doesn't feel she has to kill my own dogs to do so. 

But it is a stunning example of how instinct over-rides and these dogs are just NOT happy on small acreage and guarding chickens.

What I DO need is a good guard dog. And different kinds of guard jobs, too. I need a dog who will run ***** and fox away from my chickens, deer out of the garden, and I'd really love one that would keep other people's dogs out of my fence (as of now, according to my pack, male dogs are not allowed, but females are ok :smack )
Dogs who tend my children are very necessary here. There are LOTS of guarding jobs for dogs around here, and an LGD is not the answer for me (though apparently, in times of baby goat, one will just show up).
If it's the answer for you, and you're happy with it, that's fine. But they are not wave-a-magic-wand, one-size-fits-all, answer-for-every-guarding-situation dogs.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I am one of the ones who does not want to post here anymore. 
First off when the poll came out asking if you want a Guardian forum I voted no. Some people asked for help in the section of goats, sheep etc. the animals they keep and want guarded. I didn't think it needed it's own section that is why I voted no. 

Then from Guardian it changed to Guard animal. That is fine I have no issue with that. Not my forum not my choice to make. But the change in name has caused some people to think that pretty much any dog is a guardian. Not guard but guardian. 

This things that frustrate me here are:
Dogs who have no business being run with the animals 24/7 and you warn them and they do not listen. 
Stating your dog is a guardian even though it is bred for say hunting, herding and such. Or mixed with one of those breeds.
Asking for advice, being given it then refusing to listen. 
Lists of supposed guardian breeds are are not.
Being told you have a farm dog not a guardian dog and you still state guardian... I was told it's a guardian, I paid for a guardian it is guardian dang it! 
The arguing about what is and what is not a guardian. 
Dogs are not livestock and should not be thought of nor treated as such, they are predators and need to be trained and handled as such. 

I am not singling out or using any particular person or thread, this is an in general. 
Donkeys can be guardians, they can also kick the snot out of your dogs. Llamas can be guardians, they can also be prey and kill new babies born thinking they are intruders. LGD are guardians who can cause you just as much grief as a stray dog if they are not trained well, or of mixed or unknown parentage. 

I am not an expert, I have only had LGD for 5-6 years now, my first were ill raised nightmares I bought them at 6-8 months old and jeez they were useless except for barking, running off, killing wild rabbits and annoying the crap out of me. 
My current boys were raised by me and while I am sure I made mistakes with them, they are not animal killers, they are protectors and have a different make up and thought process then hunting, herding dogs. 

I know what dogs can do to livestock, I love my goats and would hate to read that despite the fact that you warn someone and others do as well the person then posts a few months later, oh the half Pyr half Aussie I had killed 4 of my bummer lambs, half of my flock of chickens so I shot it. Yeah totally the dog's fault. 

I try hard not to be snarky but sometimes it comes from frustration so I just bow out of the thread. If you ask for advice and then argue it gets annoying, why ask if you seem to know the answer?? 

Like I said there are many animals who can be guardians, this is not just a dog section but the forum name is confusing to some it seems and it led to arguments. While I like a good argument sometimes it seems like :bdh:


Those are my feelings and why I have bowed out of this forum in general.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Thai, I understand where you are coming from. It seems that some ask for advice, yet when told something they don't want to hear it is disregarded. Sadly, that goes for all the forums. When I see something that seems like I am beating my head against the wall, I just duck out of the conversation and hope for the best for the person. Not worth getting myself upset over minds that won't be changed.

Some may not understand the difference between Livestock Guardian and Farm Dog, or even Farm Dog and lovable tag-along on farm chores pet. Others may not want to admit that their choice has failed; even the best LGD's have washouts. It can be very frustrating to watch a train wreck in the making, whether here, pets, goats or horses. Heck, even in CF I have watched folks implode on their own bad decisions. I can only hope that my advice helps those who want to hear it, and accept/ignore the fact that some of what I say falls on deaf ears.


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## terradura (Mar 19, 2012)

This forum has helped me a lot by exposing me to new ideas and dog breeds. I haven't paid too much attention to forum titles, I just go where the topics interest me. I've been interested in pretty much everything in this forum.

But given this discussion, I am curious to ask: Is this the right place to ask questions about general farm dogs? Guarding is part of their job, but they are expected to do other things too. I see them as more than pets (they are workers), but not solely guard dogs either.

This is an honest question -- no agenda. Just hoping that discussion of general farm dogs has its place somewhere and I know where it is.

Thanks for a great place to learn.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Good question. Very good question! I think for farm dogs in general, try the pet forum. If the questions arise about a farm dog and inappropriate interactions with livestock, or trying to give him a bigger role in generalized "guarding" the homestead, that might have a place here. They are a tricky category in that they are working dogs, but also much loved pets in a lot of cases. Still, we have sworn this to be about guarding in general here, so try the Pet Forum for general farm dog questions...like feeding or health, etc.

Sound fair to everyone?


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I thought the forum was for animals that guard livestock. I've never had a problem with discussions about llamas or donkeys as long as it is a guardian discussion.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I think there is a little more than just watching repeated train wrecks waiting to happen. They have a little help from contradictory advice. An argument gets going, generally it has to do with guard vs guardian. Many folks who raise livestock as an income don't really think of a lgd as a guard dog in the same sense that somebody would think of a Doberman for example. The training is very different. . I see the same thing happen in herding dogs. Some of the advice given leads to the dog quitting, or becoming dangerous to the stock. Then they come back to you and ask for help fixing said issues. Much of the time they can't be totally fixed, so the dog continues to be a problem dog for the rest of his life, or until they give up on him. 
Another side effect of raising a lgd up as a PP dog is how public will view the breeds and lgds as whole. Those of use who depend on our sweet loving livestock guardian absolutely don't want to see them go the way of pit bulls, Rotts, and some of the other banned breeds.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Thiablue pretty much sums it up for me as well. Its been about a month since I posted for all those reasons and more in any of the forums.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Thiablue sums it up for me as well. I do not intend to post in this forum again. I have no desire to spend my time arguing with folks who think it's perfectly OK to abuse their dogs and advise others to do the same. Nor do I have patience to deal with folks who insist on using non LGD breeds to guard their livestock and don't want to hear the truth. Some of the comments one moderator made to me when she put me in time out was WAY over the top. She is on a huge power trip and will probably delete this message as well. I'll hang out on REAL livestock guardian animal forums from now on. This place has become too much of a dictatorship.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Maura said:


> I thought the forum was for animals that guard livestock. I've never had a problem with discussions about llamas or donkeys as long as it is a guardian discussion.


My concern has only to do with the dog fighting threads. "Game", "Bite Power" (or whatever it is called), " high drive" and aggression discussions centering around pits and all those sorts of dogs or discussions bother very, very much. Of course anything to do with homesteading, farming, livestock, etc are acceptable to my way of thinking. Farm dogs, llamas, donkeys, herding dogs, great pets for the homestead, all those things are wonderful topics. Even hunting dogs is a wonderful topic. But those are not the only thing that has been discussed here during the last few months. And whether anyone agrees or not, that is a shame. And the forum should be above that in honor, and in character.
A righteous man is kind to his beasts. And simply bringing dogs into the world for the sake of their "bite" strength, "high drive", "game" or fighting ability is not kind. Nor is it correct or wise to "discuss" those topics that would encourage people to not care for their pets, but rather simply see them as weapons for sport. It is shameful.
And, while on the topic, it does hurt people who have farm dogs or LGDs, herding dogs, etc when those types of "weaponized" animals are grouped with the LGDs, farm dogs, or farm pets in conversations. They are NOT the same. LGDs are gentle and not aggressive. A farm dog that is running around with your kids is not a dog you have because you like it's "bite" or its "game". Yet letting those types of "weaponized dog" conversations to exist with LGD or farm dog conversations can make people who don't understand feel they are all one and the same. But they are not. And it is just a shame to let it happen. And, I really don't care if the moderators, or anyone else, dislikes me for this opinion or not. I am right. Dogs themselves deserve more respect, and more humane treatment than simply being considered a weapon. And hearts should be above accepting that type of conversation as ok because it is not.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I haven't been here for some of the past discussions about any of this, but I am sorry those who wish to leave feel they must do so. It was my understanding from the start that the forum sort of evolved to be a discussion mostly about guardian animals when that was not really the intention. The result is driving others away who might have questions with no where else to put them. I still believe everyone has the right to an opinion on ANY topic; just reread your reply before you hit "post." We are not going to tear through here deleting things UNLESS they violate the "be nice" rule. That is simple common courtesy. I do understand tensions run very high, and I do understand the reasons. Again, I have knocked my head against the wall in the other forums as well; I do get it. I would ask again if you could overlook the threads that disturb you and focus on what you love: LGD's and your experience with them. If not, I understand that and your reasons for leaving. There is nothing more frustrating then watching someone post a question and disregarding the advice.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Thank you Beccachow for this thread. It is bringing out much frustration I've noticed in several of the forums.

I mostly see what is occurring is opinions/suggestions/information given by some that others simply disagree with. Then posters get their backs up because what they have offerred is not valued as much as they thought it should have been. This is NOT a problem that should be dealt with by any except the one(s) getting their backs up! There is noway we are all going to agree! So what? The diversity is what gives quality to any thread!

I for one appreciate the forum being for all types of guarding animals be they for guarding people or other animals!


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

motdaugrnds said:


> Thank you Beccachow for this thread. It is bringing out much frustration I've noticed in several of the forums.
> 
> I mostly see what is occurring is opinions/suggestions/information given by some that others simply disagree with. Then posters get their backs up because what they have offerred is not valued as much as they thought it should have been. This is NOT a problem that should be dealt with by any except the one(s) getting their backs up! There is noway we are all going to agree! So what? The diversity is what gives quality to any thread!
> 
> I for one appreciate the forum being for all types of guarding animals be they for guarding people or other animals!


People are free to disagree with me, they can take my advice and experience how ever they want. I don't get huffy if I feel like they are not valuing my opinion. It is when they get an Aussie / Pyrenees mix and they are told it has conflicting traits and will not work out as an lgd and they insist it will. 
The other thing that had led to confusion or frustration is the title of the forum. Not everything guards or is a guardian, so lumping them together, or insisting they are the same is another conflict. Guards and guardians are two very different things. If my boys went after humans trying to buy goats they would be a liability to me not an asset. Now if I had people stealing my expensive whatever then I would have a guard dog who would prevent them from getting any of my property.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Thai
That's why it's a general guardian forum, not everyone has the same wants & needs in their guard animal.


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## TriWinkle (Oct 2, 2011)

mekasmom said:


> My concern has only to do with the dog fighting threads. "Game", "Bite Power" (or whatever it is called), " high drive" and aggression discussions centering around pits and all those sorts of dogs or discussions bother very, very much. Of course anything to do with homesteading, farming, livestock, etc are acceptable to my way of thinking. Farm dogs, llamas, donkeys, herding dogs, great pets for the homestead, all those things are wonderful topics. Even hunting dogs is a wonderful topic. But those are not the only thing that has been discussed here during the last few months. And whether anyone agrees or not, that is a shame. And the forum should be above that in honor, and in character.
> A righteous man is kind to his beasts. And simply bringing dogs into the world for the sake of their "bite" strength, "high drive", "game" or fighting ability is not kind. Nor is it correct or wise to "discuss" those topics that would encourage people to not care for their pets, but rather simply see them as weapons for sport. It is shameful.
> And, while on the topic, it does hurt people who have farm dogs or LGDs, herding dogs, etc when those types of "weaponized" animals are grouped with the LGDs, farm dogs, or farm pets in conversations. They are NOT the same. LGDs are gentle and not aggressive. A farm dog that is running around with your kids is not a dog you have because you like it's "bite" or its "game". Yet letting those types of "weaponized dog" conversations to exist with LGD or farm dog conversations can make people who don't understand feel they are all one and the same. But they are not. And it is just a shame to let it happen. And, I really don't care if the moderators, or anyone else, dislikes me for this opinion or not. I am right. Dogs themselves deserve more respect, and more humane treatment than simply being considered a weapon. And hearts should be above accepting that type of conversation as ok because it is not.


Do you have any examples of people on here advocating dog fighting?


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

wendle said:


> Another side effect of raising a lgd up as a PP dog is how public will view the breeds and lgds as whole. Those of use who depend on our sweet loving livestock guardian absolutely don't want to see them go the way of pit bulls, Rotts, and some of the other banned breeds.


And this one statement shows why it is so wrong to group them together. In too many places, or even posts, you see people having neighbor issues due to their LGD. The truth is that if a small lost child comes near your LGD, the dog would be kind to it, lick it, keep it as part of the flock. If the neighbor's kid would wander up here and lay on the lgd, ride the lgd, pull the ears, bite the dog's tail, the dog would lay there and lick the kid. That is what LGDs are like. They love young things, care for them, and are gentle. Putting such wonderful, giant breed, gentle caring animals together with animals used for sport fighting will just hurt the people who own flocks and their LGDs. And it has the potential to encourage the fools who think fighting dogs is acceptable into crossing LGD breed with their weaponized dogs to get more size.
It is just wrong on so many levels. Even giving people with that attitude a place to have a voice at all is wrong. They are hurting animals, their breed, and ours by combinging them together even in discussions. And, it is actually beyond my perception at all that anyone thinks it is ok.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

mekasmom said:


> And this one statement shows why it is so wrong to group them together. In too many places, or even posts, you see people having neighbor issues due to their LGD. The truth is that if a small lost child comes near your LGD, the dog would be kind to it, lick it, keep it as part of the flock. If the neighbor's kid would wander up here and lay on the lgd, ride the lgd, pull the ears, bite the dog's tail, the dog would lay there and lick the kid. That is what LGDs are like. They love young things, care for them, and are gentle. Putting such wonderful, giant breed, gentle caring animals together with animals used for sport fighting will just hurt the people who own flocks and their LGDs. And it has the potential to encourage the fools who think fighting dogs is acceptable into crossing LGD breed with their weaponized dogs to get more size.
> It is just wrong on so many levels. Even giving people with that attitude a place to have a voice at all is wrong. They are hurting animals, their breed, and ours by combinging them together even in discussions. And, it is actually beyond my perception at all that anyone thinks it is ok.


First you're anthropomorphizing the dogs. Second you can never KNOW 100% what any dog will do all the time, as soon as you think you do they will prove you wrong. Third more LGDs are fought in their country of origin than are not, so most ARE fighting dogs to some extent. Some of these fights are very short tests against captive wild animals and some are full on matches, but they are quite common outside North America and Western Europe. MANY breeds of LGD are highly aggressive toward ALL threats including trespassing people, because that is what is needed in their country of origin. Many breeds of LGD deal with threats by chasing it down and killing it.
Hiding the history & pretending they're all cuddle bears has done more harm than good for pit bulldogs & related breeds. If you're unwilling to accept that different breeds function differently, that some are aggressive & dangerous and that some are in fact being fought right now, then you're just letting your emotional aversion tothat activity override rational thought. If you aren't using rational thought you won't be effective at preventing the problems you want to avoid.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

It seems to me a forum strictly for livestock GUARDIAN dogs would be valuable. A few breeds of dogs for very specialized behavior in specific circumstances like herds on open range, and not that much experience to go around for most folks. And necessary if we donât want to make sheep or goat pens of our ground.

That's a whole different ball of wax from "guard" dogs - classically any junkyard dog or Pekingese (after all, a temple guard dog) and threads like âhigh drive bulldogsâ for family protection, blackmouth curs for chasing off deer, german short hair pointer, attacking my Chickens help?not a lgd, Kelpie for sale, *Trainin' my dog proper-like (A 16 month boxer!)â*Worst. attack. dog. ever.â, If I get a dog to guard the rabbit barn, Does a family dog protect you from an attack or a threat, etc., etc. Pretty run of the mill stuff that brings our ubiquitous pit bulls in the back yard into play.

When I had questions about cattledogs, I got help on the cattle forum. If you need a stock-specific dog, there are those stock forums set out for us. As for âguard animalsâ I agree, a goose or guinea hen qualifies there.

Do we need a euphemism for âPetsâ? Spare us all, as we must do ourselves for those who post their strident opinions on every subject regardless of any real knowledge. Itâs pretty easy to spot an upaguru and pass them by as a rule.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

"upaguru" Never heard that term but see where it applies.
You folks dont know me, so here is a tip on my training methods, that make some cringe.
I handicapped by the fact that I have my back up against the door holding the Grim Reaper at bay. When I say I cant reach a dog it is dead before the day is over. I do some hard tactic's granted, but the alternative is a dirt nap.
I evaluate dangerous/ aggressive dogs, to see if they can be redeemed (brought to a point where they can be rehomed)
While I would love to be able to train every dog with operant conditioning, I dont have the luxury of that time. The flow of dogs through the shelter is limitless, unfortunately, my time and their space is not. If I spend 3 months on this dog 12-15 could be put down because they have not been evaluated and they were their time ran out!
So I take dogs through a very intense week, to see change/hope/redemption. Many times there will be swift fast change the 1st day (dog just needed leadership) I never cut a dog off, even a biter before they have a week. 
So next time your judging me, remember 
400+,123,3
Thats over 400 rehomed, 
123 failures:Bawling:
3 draws (dogs that I kept myself)


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

I would think guard dogs fall under the Home Defense forum. 

At the very least, it might be a really good idea to write a good sticky regarding the difference between guard dogs and livestock guardian dogs, including a list of appropriate breeds for each.

Merging these two kinds of dogs in one forum really does confuse things IMO, especially for people wanting to learn, or already under the wrong impression that there isn't much difference between them. A LOT of people confuse the two.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

Maybe I'm missing something, because I don't think I get it. 

Why would anyone care that the forum is now called Guard Animals?

You can still post a thread about LGDs, you can post one about your new Rottie or your new llama. If it guards, you can post it.

As always, people are free to read the threads that interest them and not the ones that don't.

They can post their advice or experiences to others if they want to, or not, and people can take that advice, or not.

Isn't that the way it has always been? How has anything changed other than the forum title?

I do understand though that people who keep animals can get pretty hot under the collar when they disagree, because we are a passionate lot.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

How are people expected to learn the differences in breeds of dogs if we are not allowed to say anything about them? How do they know which breeds are LGD and which breeds are for personal protection? How are they to learn how each breed differs?


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

So who would be willing to write up a LGD/guard/farm sticky for us? It could include a list of breeds for each. Perhaps one brave soul could write the LGD one, another could write the Guard one, and another the farm dog one. We could leave it open for folks to use as a jumping off point and to add breeds.

What say you?


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## bishopthegiant (Jan 10, 2012)

I could write something on guard/watch dogs. I trained/decoyed dogs for various agencies and sports for over ten years.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

So then, does someone point a poster to the sticky instead of directly answering? Is the forum going back to livestock guards only, or be a "different types of farm dogs" or maybe "working dogs"?


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

No, but the among the biggest concerns is folks not knowing the difference between them. This is a way to explain the differences. If you want to point a poster to these, you certainly can.

This is still going to be Guard Animals. I am given to understand by the founders of this forum that the intent was never to be strictly Guardian Animals, but that this is what it evolved into. As upset as some people are, that was the final decision and the one we are sticking with.

I am doing my best to try to work with everyone in any way that I can. I felt that some stickies about the differences of Guard Dogs vs Guardian Dogs vs Farm Dogs would be welcome, given that some of the issues are arriving with folks not knowing the difference between them. I stand by my previous statement that farm dog questions in general can be posted in the pets forum unless there is some type of canine/livestock interaction that someone might need help with. Also, I *thought* it might curb some posts that aren't as welcome here.

Thing is, there are some people just starting out. We were all beginners at one time. If we can get the stickies up and running, someone might be able to go to them to see the characteristics of each dog, plus if they are seeking one type of dog over another they would have a starting point with listed breeds as well as some discussion as to the pros and cons of each. Truth to tell, I have been in the hobby farm for quite some time and never realized there was a difference between these animals until a few years ago. I am hoping that instead of driving people away without any answers to fall flat on their faces, we could help them and point them in the right direction.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Originally there was a request to add a forum besides "pets" for the working farm dog. Some folks hoped it would also include herding dogs as they play such a large part in the common farm operation. I'm not sure who originally came up with the term "guard dogs", but I think this is where the confusion is coming from. Guard dogs typically are not for the livestock, but to protect the home and family. Sometimes this also includes other animals that might live near the home as well. Most of them are really pets that bark or bite. 
What if the name (guard animals) was broadened a bit, like ranch dogs, or working farm dogs. This would include herding dogs, so new posters would be a little more specific on their needs in posts as it would be obvious it isn't just about guard dogs or guardian dogs. 
The only bad side of the name is that it doesn't include other animals that typically protect livestock. I don't see many posts for them though, and maybe they could be included in the specific livestock forums that they would apply to.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

This forum has always been for guard animals of all sorts doing all jobs. Not for working or farm dogs. That's how Chuck set it on day one. It was never exclusively for LGDs.

The "Pets" forum was also Chuck idea as it was intended to cover farm dogs and working dogs I always thought the name choice was a bit unfortunate. While I think HT is getting almost fragmented to death with sub forums (remember Lucenet, one board did everything?) maybe there is a need for a farm dog/working dog forum.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

The pets label contributes to the problem a little as well. Nobody wants to think of their hunting, lgd or herding dog as a pet when he does a regular job. You hardly ever see people posting about them on there. I get the impression herding dogs aren't really welcome in the species specific forums either.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Just to add, I think many who have dogs, no matter what the breed consider them doing double duty as "guard animals". My border collies are my first protection in the home. They bark at intruders. My daughter considers her min pin/chi as a guard dog.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Yup. That's why I was hoping some clarification could help. My dogs guard the house (any unwelcome squirrel will get a severe barking) but I don't consider them "guard" dogs and never even attempted to train them as such.


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## terradura (Mar 19, 2012)

Isn't there a distinction that a "watch dog" sounds an alert when there is a threat, while a "guard dog" physically protects against a threat?

I agree with Ross and wendle that the current designations of "Pet" and "Guard" seem to let the farm/working dogs slip through the cracks.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Working Homestead Animals would seem to cover working dogs, as in cattle herding, etc/ LGD the guardians / the homestead general dogs/ and then would cover the mules and llamas and alarm geese, etc.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

OK, now we're just running in circles chasing our tails. I do appreciate the opinions and thoughts presented here, but boy...pretty soon we are going to want a forum for brown dogs and one for white ones. You are all smart and can figure out by now what belongs here and what doesn't. Again, if something falls between the cracks or causes yo to wonder, just PM us.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I think it's a little extreme to create another sub-forum just because there are a few people who can't restrain themselves from leaping all over other folks.

I think that maybe the guard animals forum should take a cue from some of the other forums; I have pet mice - did people jump all over me for posting in the pets forum? After all, it does say dogs and cats...
No, they didn't. Folks who like fancy mice looked, and others didn't. No one lectured me about how could I keep mice as pets and they spend all their time getting rid of them.
People were nice.

Or the Fiber Arts forum. It is 90% or more knitters, but I've always gotten help, compliments and friendly advice about my crochet. I even posted there about crocheting with wire - which isn't even a *fiber* - and folks were nice about it.

I'm a member of a horse forum, they have I think 20 sub-forums about different things to do with horses - and then a miscellaneous one for yet more stuff that doesn't fit those categories! It's a specialty place, for really, really, REALLY specific questions.
This is a homesteading forum - do we really need 3 sub-forums for different uses of dogs?

I'm pretty active on Pets, and I LOVE the herding dog threads. I don't remember unfriendliness. If there aren't a lot of threads there on herding dogs - maybe y'all should start some, so everyone can learn. If you'd start a thread in a "working dog" sub-forum - what's stopping you from starting one where everyone looks for dog info? The whole works here is a homesteading forum, helping people mentally transition a dog from a strictly pet mindset to an active-member-of-the-homestead-team mindset is very valuable - and as can be seen here, there are LOTS of breeds and dogs who are useful in that way. Why have everyone think that you need a BC or an LGD and other breeds have no use here? 

The _LGD is the answer, the right answer and the only answer_ mindset hasn't helped a lot of folks, so I doubt that further splintering the forums will really help people OR their dogs. I think we should try to be MORE inclusive and remember to Be Nice.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Otter, I agree.


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