# Has food storage become a crime? Your thoughts on this.



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/08/swat-team.htm

Here's the first two paragraphs:

---
On Monday, December 1, a SWAT team with semi-automatic rifles entered the private home of the Stowers family in LaGrange, Ohio, herded the family onto the couches in the living room, and kept guns trained on parents, children, infants and toddlers, from approximately 11 AM to 8 PM. The team was aggressive and belligerent. The children were quite traumatized. At some point, the âbad copâ SWAT team was relieved by another team, a âgood copâ team that tried to befriend the family. The Stowers family has run a very large, well-known food cooperative called Manna Storehouse on the western side of the greater Cleveland area for many years. [Update]

There were agents from the Department of Agriculture present, one of them identified as Bill Lesho. The search warrant is reportedly suspicious-looking. Agents began rifling through all of the familyâs possessions, a task that lasted hours and resulted in a complete upheaval of every private area in the home. Many items were taken that were not listed on the search warrant. The family was not permitted a phone call, and they were not told what crime they were being charged with. They were not read their rights. Over ten thousand dollars worth of food was taken, including the familyâs personal stock of food for the coming year. All of their computers, and all of their cell phones were taken, as well as phone and contact records. The food cooperative was virtually shut down. There was no rational explanation, nor justification, for this extreme violation of Constitutional rights.
---

Armed agents of the Department of Agriculture? Government law enforcement setting up "milk sting" operations to entrap farmers into selling raw milk?

Increasingly it seems that the government wishes the public to believe that food is a dangerous substance that must be rendered "safe" by corporate agriculture before it can be presented to consumers. More and more they are making it a crime to raise food, buy food, or store food.

Your thoughts please. Where do you feel this issue is today?


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## oldcj5guy (Jul 24, 2006)

Serves them right for selling melemine free foods.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Hi Ernie, I posted on the other thread, I've been talking to Katie Stowers (the family above). Assuming she gives me permission I will post it here.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Tell her that a lot of people are watching this, and that she has our support. 

I always thought that when the government controlled your guns it would be the major problem, but now I'm beginning to suspect that they've decided to control the food too. Our rights to homegrown food aren't really protected in the Constitution the way guns are. I guess that our founding fathers never really considered it, or if they did they figured that it would be covered under the rights to private property clauses they protected us with.

It's odd that I might become a criminal through selling dairy and growing potatoes quicker than I could become a criminal through gun ownership.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

I feel strongly about this issue. At the risk of being labeled a nutter with too much tin foil here goes.
They are trying to control all food. Eventually the only food will be under corporate control, & the prices they set. No quicker way to make slaves than to control the food.
They will also be able to add (& already are) chemicals that can dumb down the population & make them more controllable & docile.
Once control is established it opens the door wide open for gene spliced franken foods, that do destroy or modify natural crops around them, once those are gone or virtually wiped out, you will have no other choice than to buy seeds & food from Monsanto, at whatever prices they set.

There already are Exec orders that allow the gov to seize all your food,your farmland,your house,your vehicles, if they deem it necessary in a national emergency situation.

All these laws or proposed & coming laws are aimed at making people dependent on government & big business. Its called the NWO, whose sole goal is to destroy independence in any shape or form.

Just my thoughts & you asked:lookout:


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I wouldn't call anyone a nutter or refer to the tin foil hat thing. Not anymore. Not these days.

It's been overused and I hate to see it. Yes, some people occasionally take 2 + 2 = 5, but more often those nutter/tinfoil hat labels get applied to legitimate 2 + 2 = 4 situations. 

Occasionally you see videos that weren't meant for outside publication that leak out on the web. Notes, emails, internal discussions, etc. that show the inner thoughts of the heads of these corporations and celebrities who believe that _they_ are the true intelligentsia who should be leading society. It's scary stuff. There's nothing ... and I mean absolutely nothing ... that they haven't considered and there's nothing that is out of bounds. I don't believe you can come up with a scenario that they haven't thought of, no matter how unethical or far-fetched. If they don't implement these things, it's not usually because these powers thought better of it. More often it's because they either a) don't have the appropriate resources in place yet, b) they haven't managed to tweak the government yet to allow what they want to do.

So your idea doesn't sound so crazy to me. I just don't know how far along on that path they actually are yet.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

This story needs to make the rounds to all military families around the world. Our military men and women need to know what is happening right here at home while they are sent off to protect the rights of foreign countries. 

http://www.thecompletepatient.com/j...ell-navy-seabee-chad-stowers-the-real-wa.html

*Katieâs husband, Chad, is a U.S. Navy Seabee, helping in construction projects in the midst of combat in Iraq. Heâs been there, separated from his family, for the last five months, supposedly protecting our rights from abuseâthe sort of abuse that appears to be taking place on an ever-more-frequent basis at farms and food outlets around the country.

I should point out that Katie didnât broadcast the information about her husband to meâI inquired about it after she had to interrupt our telephone conversation to take a call from Chad in Iraq. Presumably, she was updating him about the raid he missed, in which sheriffâs deputies, together with food inspectors from the Lorain County Health Department and the Ohio Department of Agriculture, herded the family into a home living room, and kept them under the guard of armed officers for about seven hours, while they executed a search warrant, taking food, cell phones, three computers, and business records. I asked Lorain if she was aware of the irony of her husband putting his life on the line in Iraq, while she was being held at gunpoint in her home by American law enforcement officials, and she said, âIt occurred to me.â*


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Hi Ernie, I know you wouldn't apply that label to me or others.

What drew me to homesteading ideas & lifestyles was a desire to escape the, for lack of better words, the NWO.

Yet I think most people don't see that or put it in those terms, yet that is what it is, the absolute destruction of any kind of independence.

I only see 2 alternatives.
1.Enough people become aware that gov & big biz only care about themselves & profits.
Their battle cry is usually something along the lines of, Im here to help & protect you,or the innocents, or whatever, when in reality they could care less. They want control & money & slaves.

2.People become so apathetic they no longer care.

If within the next year a somewhat peaceful revolution doesn't follow, Im afraid option 2 will become the norm & nobody will care to fight about anything, let alone get involved in a violent revolution

At that point the battle is lost, & the PTB know it. The maybe 10% of people that do believe in freedom will be totally out numbered & most likely singled out.

If the loss of jobs, & housing & ruined economy doesn't wake up the populace, Im not sure what will


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

someone recently told me about a "whitelist" for importing plants and seeds:



> http://www.geocities.com/nowhitelist/
> 
> "All taxa of plants for planting that are not currently being imported in significant amounts would then be excluded pending risk evaluation and approval."
> 
> (page 71741 of the Federal Register: December 10, 2004 (Volume 69, Number 237)


compare that to the ease with which the gov't allows new GMO seeds to be sold and planted.

Also, I've read that some farmers wanted to export beef to japan, and were going to individually test each cow for mad cow disease, such that japan and consumers there would allow it to be imported. the gov't has *prohibited* the farmers from doing the testing. Compare that to NAIS, which is supposed to allow diseases to be traced back to the source. 

If the gov'ts motives were truly what they claim, then these inconsistencies wouldn't exist. I suspect their are hidden agendas, at least by corps, and maybe by the gov't as well.

--sgl


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## chris30523 (Jun 11, 2005)

Scary stuff!!Makes my tin foil hat fit a bit tighter! I am checked out 3 times a year by an Ag. agent. He is sympathetic to small farmers but still my farm is GPS marked and an inventory is kept of what he can see when he comes out.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

If jack booted thugs are on the loose, it's best to not let anyone know you have what they're searching for.

Whether it be 1st or 2nd amendment related rights, or illegal foodstuffs. If the PTB learn of it, you will be targeted.


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2008)

chris30523 said:


> I am checked out 3 times a year by an Ag. agent. He is sympathetic to small farmers but still my farm is GPS marked and an inventory is kept of what he can see when he comes out.


Why??


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

It seems more likely to me, if this in fact is a true story, that either there was a personal vendetta on the part of someone with the power to seize goods, or they broke a law, were warned and ignored it continuing to exert there own will regardless of the law.

I don't believe the government is out to seize everyone's food stash, or that it's illegal to keep some stores in the shadowy spaces of our homes. Not yet. But just in case, cash is king.

I do believe the corps would and are working toward that end, not necessarily intentionally. But it does seem the logical outcome when corporations are granted far more power than the people. This is where, imho, we need to concentrate our efforts, to either limit the size of corporations to the point where they can't be too big to fail, or can't be so large and powerful they control the government. Which is a point we have passed already.

Until the people regain control of the government, these little transgressions will continue to grow in scope and magnitude.


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## groundhogII (Nov 6, 2008)

Long time lurker,1st time poster. This story bothers me also.It looks to me like Monsanto could be the one behind this.This corporation has more influence on gov't. policy concerning food production than many people realize.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

groundhogII said:


> Long time lurker,1st time poster. This story bothers me also.It looks to me like Monsanto could be the one behind this.This corporation has more influence on gov't. policy concerning food production than many people realize.


Where do you get that from?


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## Madame (Jan 1, 2003)

I just finished reading a book that talked about the German occupation of the Guernsey Islands during WW2. They tracked every animal that was born or died at every home, and controlled all the food. Now I know where the idea for NAIS came from.

I can't see them going after me since I don't have much, but if I did, I would keep my mouth shut and my stuff out of sight. Given my debts, it'll be a long time before I have to worry. 

I've noticed over the last year or two that folks at this forum don't say much anymore about how much they have stored. I figure some are like me and just don't have much, and others are being sensibly quiet. 

I don't think our government is satan incarnate, but I think their are individuals in power who threaten our freedom and that includes food. I do hope I'm absolutely wrong.


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## groundhogII (Nov 6, 2008)

Seedspreader,my post does need explaination.I have typed several long and detailed responses on other threads,only to have them lost because even though I could log in I wasn't authorized to post yet.So assuming my last post would not go through either,I kept it very short. YouTube has some great documentaries concerning Monsanto.In a nut shell,Monsanto is the biggest player in the genetically modified food area.They simply buy up any competitor or threat,like other seed companies.Employees regularly leave Monsanto to go work for the USDA to infuence policy,only to return to work for Monsanto after serving in the USDA.Am I suggesting Monsanto had a direct connection to what went down in Ohio? No,I'm not.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

I know all about monsanto but I think this is bigger monsanto. I think that they are as crooked as the crooked law allows, but they do it at the behest of all the consumers who want "safe food" and all the farmers who want "easy farming". 

I don't think we have enough confirmed information yet to really understand everything that happened in Ohio.


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## catdance62 (Dec 7, 2008)

Alternate name for Monsanto: Monsatan
the do their evilest deeds overseas.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

In a related story:

Headlined on 12/7/08:
More raids against horse and buggy Mennonite in Pennsylvania

by Linn Cohen-Cole Page 1 of 5 page(s)

www.opednews.com

The public has been failed by the media that government raids against farmers are not being covered and especially that the connection between the vested corporate interests in eliminating these farmers is not looked into. Independent farmers who refuse to use corporations as middlemen are the only ones being attacked.

The article below was published first in Counterpunch in April of 2008. It was reporting on the second raid against a Pennsylvania dairy farmer. Since then, the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture has raided this same man for a third time. 

The second two raids have been led by a man who previously worked for Hersheys and Dean Foods, giant corporations with a vested interest in dairy farmers receiving little for their milk and in stopping the growing public move to NON-corporate, local, independent, straight to consumer sale of milk.

And what was the dairy farmer selling? Unprocessed, plain milk, which the USDA is working state to state to make illegal, using "food safety' as the argument and treating real milk as though it were a major threat to US public health. 

Yet the reality is that raw milk greatly supports local farming and sustainable agriculture and is produced in ways consistent with reducing global warming and its growing popularity stems from people learning that it is especially healthy. 

It contains real vitamin D which is critical to health

but which the industry removes and substitutes with a synthetic that doesn't work. 
Raw milk is also rich in bacteria that Yale University has shown to be protective against type 1 diabetes.

These bacteria are absent in corporate milk because they are killed through pasteurization. (In certain cases some bacteria are retained or extracted and then sold separately as a "special" aid to digestion under the corporately invented name "L-casei immunitas.")

Welcome to 

The Criminalization of Raw Milk

A Mennonite Farmer is Hauled Away

Jonas Stoltzfus, a friend, fellow farmer, and Church of the Brethen, was asked by Mr. Nolt to speak for him, and said of the raid yesterday - "Six state troopers and a man with the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture trespassed onto his property, and stole $20-25,000 of his product and equipment." 

http://www.opednews.com/articles/More-raids-against-horse-a-by-Linn-Cohen-Cole-081207-409.html

I got 404 on some of the links in the article.Not trying to hijack the thread.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Simple solution: Put in place a labeling requirement explaining the milk is unpasteurized, what risks there are as a result of that, and how to pasteurize it yourself if interested.

Education, information, anyone gets sick, it's on their own hands. End of story.


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## chris30523 (Jun 11, 2005)

ladycat said:


> Why??


I have a commercial contract.They check biohazard regulations and disposal of dead birds.


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## 7.62mmFMJ (Nov 19, 2008)

Food storage will become a crime when there is not enough food. They nailed retailers in Florida for "gouging" during hurricanes. Seems to me that the law of supply and demand works quite well - when supply is short, then the price will get the material where it is most needed. 

Hording will be the next threshold crime. Why do you have so much when those people over there have nothing? 

Orwell's All animals are equal. Or, the ant and the grasshopper. 

Just for the record, I have no food storage. I live week-to-week and could not even survive a thunderstorm power outage. I produce no food nor do I offer any food for sale or for charity. SO Agent Schmuckatelli can pound sand.


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2008)

7.62mmFMJ said:


> Food storage will become a crime when there is not enough food.


Like what happened in WWI

New York Times, May 30, 1918 (PDF)

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=940CEEDD1238EE32A25753C3A9639C946996D6CF

If that link doesn't work, click the following one and then click View Full Article:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=940CEEDD1238EE32A25753C3A9639C946996D6CF


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## ailsaek (Feb 7, 2007)

Ouch. I wonder if such a law were made now, if the Mormon church would protest it. They obviously have a large budget for political action.


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## 7.62mmFMJ (Nov 19, 2008)

ladycat said:


> Like what happened in WWII
> 
> New York Times, May 30, 1918 (PDF)
> 
> ...


Yikes! 

In 1918 they had laws against storing food!!!!!!!!!!!!! No more than 30 day's supply. Outrageous.

If I stored food, I would have much more than 1 year's supply.


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## FUNKY PIONEER (Sep 20, 2005)

ailsaek said:


> Ouch. I wonder if such a law were made now, if the Mormon church would protest it. They obviously have a large budget for political action.


 Any money that went towards political things this elections came directly from members and nothing from the church. The law turned a blind eye to the hate crime that occured towards the church after prop 8 was passed, what makes you think that they would do anything for food storage?


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

Pickapeppa, here in Ohio, there is no simple solution. Selling raw milk for human consumption is illegal. Giving it away for the same purpose is illegal. It matters not one whit that you have labeled it as unpasturized or Buyer Beware. The only way raw milk products can be sold is if labeled as Pet Food. It is then between the consumer and their conscience whether they consume this product or give it to their pets. Although ODA tried to force the dairy producers to bear the burden of requiring that the customers prove they were going to use it as pet food, even ODA couldn't push that much idiocy through.

Here is a link to the cases I mentioned in a previously related post. Both Donna and Linda are good friends of mine. I attended several of their hearings and spoke on their behalf. After over two years, the court finally ruled that the Ohio Department of Agriculture was making up the rules illegally they were then enforcing upon law abiding, duly licensed dairy producers.

http://mariettaregister.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=669&Itemid=1

Having been rather close to this one, I can personally say that I think it was not about storage of food. It was about two things. First, taking away the public's right to choose for themselves whether they consider a product healthy or not and secondly, an attempt of agribusiness controlled state regulators to destroy the small farm industry. The so called experts have told us for the last 40 years to get big or get out. Several of us refused to follow this which we knew to be bad advice. So now they are trying to force us out through various methods of legal trickery. Thank heavens they were stopped in my friends' case, but I am sure they are not yet done trying.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

We have it here too, although maybe not to the same degree as what Ohio is taking it. I have mixed feelings on this issue. Raw milk has a long history of having toxic, sometimes deadly bacteria in it. It only makes sense that for a big producer, whose product reaches many people across the region, to be of a safe quality for consumption. 

While I have no problems with people choosing for themselves to consume something that could be dangerous, what about if they serve it to guests, or the children of guests, who unwittingly, and trustingly partake and then fall deathly ill?

I don't think it's as much a big vs. cottage industry issue as it is a safety issue. Apparently there are no easy answers - other than to relax zoning ordinances so more people can have their own dairy animals in their back yards.

But I don't believe the USDA should be waltzing into somebody's home pointing guns on their kids while they rifle through all their belongings. There are better ways to handle the situation.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

But where does that "protecting the poor, ignorant public too stupid to think for themselves" thing end? Should you not be allowed to sell spinach, green onions, or lettuce because there are documented cases of them making someone sick? Why would a small farmer be any more suspect than a large commercial farm? Most of the cases of foodborn illness I have heard of came from the large commercial operations, not Mom and Pop shops. Why should parents count on the government to keep the milk "safe" that the neighbor might be offering to the kids? Can you honestly say that the risk of possibly getting bacteria in raw milk is more of a problem than getting commercial milk from cows fed ground up newspaper sprayed with protein juice and hopped up on bovine growth hormone?

I want to take care of my own. I don't want Big Brother telling me what I can and can't buy, all the while with Agribusiness whispering in his ear what should be done. Perhaps in an ideal world, that would work. But this is the real world and a place where, to please Big Ag, a certain amount of pus in commercial milk is allowed. Yum. I trust agribusiness and the government about as far as I could throw either of them.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

If you want to sell milk, why not pasteurize it? Is it that much more expensive? Or does it take away the added value of having a unique product that's raw?

I can appreciate the raw milk pov, in fact have bought raw milk cheese products - aged of course. But it seems that if there were a risk, and how does one know they're product doesn't carry that risk if there is no testing performed, it would be wise to err on the side of caution when it comes to the health and safety of one's customers and their young children.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i don't know pickapeppa, i can go to many steakhouses or burger joints and order a rare steak or burger and risk being poisoned. one would think rare meats would be illegal also. veggies that grow in the ground could also have come in contact with botulism that could grow in storage and poison you if you choose to eat that nice, healthy raw veggie salad.

listeria can be found anywhere. IMHO having worked in a ready to eat dairy treat factory for 10 years, i would say listeria contamination has more to do with handling procedures and packaging plant sanitation than the milk itself. more people have been poisoned by pasteurized milk than from raw milk. perhaps that is merely because of the amount of pasteurized milk sales vs. raw milk sales over the years, but it does show that merely pasteurizing milk means very little. there are lots of steps in between the pasteurization and the dinner table.

lots of folks entrust others to their safety every day. perhaps "joey's" mom shouldn't drive a van load of kids to soccer practice because she is a terrible driver. maybe she has a clean record, but maybe she has just been lucky. i'm sure there are hundreds of examples, why should food be any different? will school bus drivers be forced to ingest sleeping pills to make sure they have a good night's sleep before driving our kids?


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

7.62mmFMJ said:


> Just for the record, I have no food storage. I live week-to-week and could not even survive a thunderstorm power outage. I produce no food nor do I offer any food for sale or for charity. SO Agent Schmuckatelli can pound sand.


I have to pick up roadkill on the way home each evening to eat... sometimes I swerve way off into pastures.....:icecream: anyone wondering, I don't have food at home... 

Actually, it's somewhat irrelevant, as my legal address is somewhat vague...


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

I guess it's all about keeping the level of risk in perspective. I've been under the assumption that raw milk carries a greater risk than any of the situations mentioned above, with the exception of the horrible female minivan driver with a load of kids. ;-)

Maybe I'd have a different perspective if I'd have worked for the USDA in some capacity and saw things first hand. The reports we get from the media are pretty horrific sometimes.

It's why we choose to grow our own as well. I don't trust big ag, or .gov. I trust my own two hands though. 

Maybe if there were a cheap way of testing food products at home . . . it would open the door to less restrictions on the small dairy industry.

Any test developers out there lurking with venture capital line up?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I would not buy "Dean's Unpasteurized Milk" sold in plastic bottles in convenience stores. I don't know how it's been kept, I didn't see it bottled, and I don't know the producer or the retailer. For all I know it sat in the back of an unrefrigerated truck outside the local "Kitty Kat Klub" on I-65 for three hours while the driver got a few lapdances. 

However, buying it from a local (and nearby) producer whose cattle I can see grazing in the field and whose barn I can inspect for myself is a whole different story. _I_ want to take more control of my food supply, not outsource my personal responsibility to a government entity in thrall to their corporate overlords.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

The only sure way to know if that milk is safe is to be the one with your hands on the teats.



Could there be potential for 'milk your own' operations? :lookout:

Ya buddy. I just stopped down for some fresh milk at the Rent-A-Teat farm . . .


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

the mass producers and processors are the ones who create an environment where massive amounts of people are exposed to risk all at once. mass production means higher populations and more turnover...therefore more of a chance for sanitation practices to fail due to tolerances building for the sanitation procedures and more of a chance for new strains of common diseases. big business also plays fast and loose with the rules and compromises them for profit. when i worked in the dairy plant, run time was originally 18 hours with 6 hours of sanitation. it slowly eveolved into 42 hours of run time and 2 hours of sanitation. harsher chemicals were used and listeria became a huge problem. it threatened to close the plant. the harsh chemicals also caused big problems with the waste water pre-treatment plant and eventually the actual treatment plant. this very same mentality, extended run times and less sanitation (for more profit via efficiency) is what IMHO caused listeria problems in the ready to eat meat factories and resulted in the use of bacterial phages to combat listeria in the product. now we eat bacterial phages along with our bologna.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

MELOC said:


> listeria problems in the ready to eat meat factories and resulted in the use of bacterial phages to combat listeria in the product. now we eat bacterial phages along with our bologna.


Yuck. Is there any decent reading floating around the web on this. I'm interested in hearing more.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2008)

pickapeppa said:


> The only sure way to know if that milk is safe is to be the one with your hands on the teats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds like a good idea to me. I would gladly stop off at a local farm and milk a cow to get my own raw milk.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

ladycat said:


> Sounds like a good idea to me. I would gladly stop off at a local farm and milk a cow to get my own raw milk.


Me too! Ernie, do you happen to have a dairy goat I can pay you to milk? 

BTW, reading up on phages. It's a rather brilliant idea.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

they make it sound wonderful, but look at what they gloss over. the linked article states manufacturers are looking for cheaper ways to fight bacteria without cleaning the factory. IMHO sanitation is being tossed by the wayside for profit. they claim the phages are safe, but who really knows? i know traditional sanitation procedures will work. it has worked for many decades but has failed when plants try to run extended runs and run with a skeleton crew instead of a sanitation crew.

http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/...phages-Viral-hit-squads-target-food-pathogens


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## Stormy_NY (Dec 8, 2007)

pickapeppa said:


> If you want to sell milk, why not pasteurize it? Is it that much more expensive? Or does it take away the added value of having a unique product that's raw?
> 
> I can appreciate the raw milk pov, in fact have bought raw milk cheese products - aged of course. But it seems that if there were a risk, and how does one know they're product doesn't carry that risk if there is no testing performed, it would be wise to err on the side of caution when it comes to the health and safety of one's customers and their young children.


You have over 3000 posts...... Are you really so naive as far as the Government and corporations are concerned.

If I want to buy and drink raw milk it is up to me. NOT the Government, the rest of the sheeple can drink the Government "tested" products. If thats not an oxy- moron.

Put down the kool aid and step away from the table.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Stormy_NY said:


> You have over 3000 posts...... Are you really so naive as far as the Government and corporations are concerned.
> 
> If I want to buy and drink raw milk it is up to me. NOT the Government, the rest of the sheeple can drink the Government "tested" products. If thats not an oxy- moron.
> 
> Put down the kool aid and step away from the table.


Ever read The Shock Doctrine?


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## 7.62mmFMJ (Nov 19, 2008)

I grew up on a dairy farm. We took our milk right from the bulk tank. I drank milk like most drink Pepsi and Coke. No one in our family was ever ill from drinking milk on the farm.

And I also do not appreciate the term "raw milk" in that it is just milk. The milk purchased from Big Agra and Big Grocery is de-fatted and pasteurized and stuff is added to it. To this day I do not enjoy drinking store bought milk. 

But I will not have a milk cow - I spent my pre-adult and young adult life milking twice per day 7 days a week.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

7.62mmFMJ said:


> I grew up on a dairy farm. We took our milk right from the bulk tank. I drank milk like most drink Pepsi and Coke. No one in our family was ever ill from drinking milk on the farm.
> 
> And I also do not appreciate the term "raw milk" in that it is just milk. The milk purchased from Big Agra and Big Grocery is de-fatted and pasteurized and stuff is added to it. To this day I do not enjoy drinking store bought milk.
> 
> But I will not have a milk cow - I spent my pre-adult and young adult life milking twice per day 7 days a week.


We drank raw milk as kids on occasion. I remember it had a different flavor than store bought milk - which is what we were used to drinking. We preferred the store bought as kids, so mom quit getting the raw from my uncle's farm.

As an adult, knowing how things are brought to our tables in bulk production facilities, I'd prefer the raw, IF I had the opportunity to do the milking myself, in my own pail, or obtained it from someone I know personally would take adequate precautions.

Stormy, please, I'm not a Kool Aid drinker. Really. And neither are you.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

that's why i don't have one myself or goats for that matter. it's a heck of a commitment. wish i had a local to barter with. i sure do miss the tasty, real whole milk from the farms around here that used to sell it.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

We need a network of dairy animal owners who would like a couple of shifts off every now and then.

I'd do it. In a heartbeat.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

pickapeppa said:


> ... The reports we get from the media are pretty horrific sometimes...


Their job is to make money for their stockholders, not to bring real information to the public. The last couple of years has taught us without a doubt that we can't trust much of what we get from the media. 

The more horrific the story, the more rubberneckers are attracted to it. If they ran stories about how Timmy grew strong bones & teeth from drinking healthy raw milk year after year, it would not make money. 

If they run a story about how Timmy's family is destitute from medical bills caused by a tainted glass of milk, then they'll milk that story for all it's worth, collect hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations for Timmy's family (less their profit margin of course!) Their story would be on the lips of people around the world. It would be headlines for days, possibly weeks giving them attention and money they crave. 

The damage they could do to the milk business could be irreparable. The illness might have been caused by a contaminated glass he drank out of and have nothing to do with the milk. Nobody would bother to discover that some dirty glass caused the illness, they would blame it on the milk. 

Some "activist" might decide that we need stricter laws to protect the Timmy's of the world. DC would jump on the bandwagon so they could all envision themselves as hero's saving the Timmy's of the world. They might pass laws that ended up making the cost of milk skyrocket and the poor Timmy's of the world would end up not having milk after the new laws raised the price to $10 a pint. 

As a person who was raised on raw milk, I am a firm believer that the problems are in the handling of the milk, not the milk itself. A clean dairy using sanitary methods will produce clean healthy milk, provided their animals are clean & healthy. A dirty dairy or unsanitary conditions will produce contaminated milk even with healthy animals. It's really that simple.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

pickapeppa said:


> Me too! Ernie, do you happen to have a dairy goat I can pay you to milk?
> 
> BTW, reading up on phages. It's a rather brilliant idea.


Where were you all summer when I was trying to give away a breeding female La Mancha?  She was a fence jumper and my fences weren't appropriate for her, so I tried to sell her and couldn't find a buyer. Eventually I tried to just give her away and still couldn't find a taker. Ultimately she became sausage. Hate to waste a breeding female like that but she turned taking care of the livestock from a 30 minute a day chore into a 3 hour one.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Ernie said:


> Where were you all summer when I was trying to give away a breeding female La Mancha?  She was a fence jumper and my fences weren't appropriate for her, so I tried to sell her and couldn't find a buyer. Eventually I tried to just give her away and still couldn't find a taker. Ultimately she became sausage. Hate to waste a breeding female like that but she turned taking care of the livestock from a 30 minute a day chore into a 3 hour one.


I was hiding my chickens from the neighbors.  They're quite the escape artists themselves.

I'd want to take her, if we were completely fenced in, which we aren't yet, only one side is fenced. Hopefully sometime in the next couple of years we'll have a decent six foot privacy fence on both sides. I'm not sure about the dairy goats just yet. My neighbors have been quite forgiving of the chicken situation.

That AND, we're a bit small in acreage for a goat or two. Our little lot would be barren in no time.

I'd rather come for dairy goat lessons. ;-)


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## MamaTiger (Jun 11, 2008)

Have my very own Jersey cow; oldest ds does the milking twice a day. Love to make my own cheeses...but NOT going to buy raw milk from any store, no way no how. 

Wish the govt would finally realize we are grownups, quite capable of making our own decisions and not really needing nor wanting a babysitter.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

MamaTiger said:


> Have my very own Jersey cow; oldest ds does the milking twice a day. Love to make my own cheeses...but NOT going to buy raw milk from any store, no way no how.
> 
> Wish the govt would finally realize we are grownups, quite capable of making our own decisions and not really needing nor wanting a babysitter.


We need food safety laws to protect us from thieving, corner cutting corps. It just so happens, they can put us small timers in a bind as well. But I don't see any reason, if the larger corps have to comply, that the smaller producers shouldn't.


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## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

The title of this post is misleading. Food storage isn't a crime, and the farm was not raided because they were storing food, but for other reasons (food related.)

And the article link in post #24 happened during WWI, in England.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

pickapeppa said:


> I was hiding my chickens from the neighbors.  They're quite the escape artists themselves.
> 
> I'd want to take her, if we were completely fenced in, which we aren't yet, only one side is fenced. Hopefully sometime in the next couple of years we'll have a decent six foot privacy fence on both sides. I'm not sure about the dairy goats just yet. My neighbors have been quite forgiving of the chicken situation.
> 
> ...


My neighbors have been fairly understanding about my chickens as well, and a carton of eggs every week certainly helps out. I find that spreading the agrarian love around in the neighborhood helps lean people away the attitude of "those dang hillbillies at the end of the road" to "that nice young couple trying to make a go at farming". A quart of honey here, a basket of fresh tomatoes there, and a Ball jar full of blackberry jam and you've got people who start going out of their way to help you instead of neighbors who would hinder your actions. But this goat of mine was really putting that to the test with her fence-jumping, rose-bush eating ways. Problem animals have to be dealt with and I couldn't afford the hundreds of dollars worth of fencing materials it would have taken to keep this high-jumping lady in her pasture.

If all goes well through the winter, my other female goat will be having babies in the spring and we'll be milking by June. Y'all plan on coming up then and I'll show you how to milk a goat and maybe we can send you home with a free young doe of your own. 

Nothing insures the health of your family like having a milking animal on your property. Be it cow or goat, that's an animal worthy of a lot of love and attention because they'll keep you alive and full of nutrition through a lot of adversity. I get so mad when these animal rights people start going on about the exploitation of milk cows on farm. I'm sure it happens, particularly on the big dairies, but they've never seen me go out and kiss my beautiful Jersey Heidi on the nose and see how she holds out her head for me to scratch her behind the ears. They've never seen a contented and happy cow grazing happily in a pasture where it knows it's protected and loved.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Ernie said:


> My neighbors have been fairly understanding about my chickens as well, and a carton of eggs every week certainly helps out. I find that spreading the agrarian love around in the neighborhood helps lean people away the attitude of "those dang hillbillies at the end of the road" to "that nice young couple trying to make a go at farming". A quart of honey here, a basket of fresh tomatoes there, and a Ball jar full of blackberry jam and you've got people who start going out of their way to help you instead of neighbors who would hinder your actions.


Agreed. It sure does. Even when your properties are in close contact like ours. Everyone breaks zoning and code ordinances around here, just in different ways. We all know it. I'm just glad to not have been singled out and ratted out. I hope things stay that way. I'm not sure about pushing it with goats, though. We'd have to be securely fenced in before I'd give that a shot.



> But this goat of mine was really putting that to the test with her fence-jumping, rose-bush eating ways. Problem animals have to be dealt with and I couldn't afford the hundreds of dollars worth of fencing materials it would have taken to keep this high-jumping lady in her pasture.


I'm sorry to hear it, Ernie. I'm sure it was a difficult decision. Especially if you're close to your animals.



> If all goes well through the winter, my other female goat will be having babies in the spring and we'll be milking by June. Y'all plan on coming up then and I'll show you how to milk a goat and maybe we can send you home with a free young doe of your own.


That's a very generous offer. We'll have to see how everything goes - government budgets, neighbors, fences and all. I'd rather have a couple of goats than another dog, truth be told.



> Nothing insures the health of your family like having a milking animal on your property. Be it cow or goat, that's an animal worthy of a lot of love and attention because they'll keep you alive and full of nutrition through a lot of adversity. I get so mad when these animal rights people start going on about the exploitation of milk cows on farm. I'm sure it happens, particularly on the big dairies, but they've never seen me go out and kiss my beautiful Jersey Heidi on the nose and see how she holds out her head for me to scratch her behind the ears. They've never seen a contented and happy cow grazing happily in a pasture where it knows it's protected and loved.


And we'd relish every drop, as much as we do with the eggs. Health insurance with a very small premium. I can't tell how much better we feel after eating something out of our own garden or nest box in comparison to products from the stores. 

Even better, we get so much joy from those chickens, and they fare far better under our care than if they'd gone to some factory egg producing outfit. They're spoiled girls, they are. And it shows. 

Can goats jump a six foot fence? Just curious.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2008)

Narshalla said:


> And the article link in post #24 happened during WWI, in England.


That was in the United States.

WASHINGTON, May 29 - Indictments were returned by a Federal Grand Jury here today against Medical Director Francis Smith Nash, U.S.N., and his wife Caroline Nash... (etc)

Federal Grand Jury in Washington, D.C.
and
Medical Director of United States Navy.

And I clearly posted the year, May 30, *1918*


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

ladycat said:


> That was in the United States.
> 
> WASHINGTON, May 29 - Indictments were returned by a Federal Grand Jury here today against Medical Director Francis Smith Nash, U.S.N., and his wife Caroline Nash... (etc)
> 
> ...


You must have accidentally hit the "I" key twice. It said WWII instead of WWI. ;-)


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2008)

pickapeppa said:


> You must have accidentally hit the "I" key twice. It said WWII instead of WWI. ;-)


My stupid mistake.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

What's a second world war amongst friends though? 

Most goats would have trouble jumping a 6' fence. I've just got a 4' sagger fence which creates enough of a problem that most of my goats wouldn't go over it. Just this one lady who thought she was kin to the white tail deer. 

Been talking to some folks tonight about various pieces of agriculture, and I'm amazed by how many grew up with their parents producing their own stuff but don't do it now. "Oh yeah, I used to love homegrown tomatoes!" "Do you grow them now?" "Oh, no. Don't have the time."

I just can't understand it. Why WOULDN'T someone want to take responsibility for their own food supply?


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## 7.62mmFMJ (Nov 19, 2008)

American Idol, NBA, Oprah, NFL, The View, UFC, ad nauseum.

So long as food is at the store and is not real expensive, entertainment is fare more important to Joe Sixpack and Jane Zinfandel. 

If Joe and Jane knew anything about JIT delivery and how vulnerable the supply chain really is, they may get interested......................wait, what is that about Brangelina?


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## groundhogII (Nov 6, 2008)

One silver lining in all this,atleast we can still get healthy wholesome food from China,unabated.
P.S.-I'm new, that was suppose to be humorous.


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## MamaTiger (Jun 11, 2008)

pickapeppa said:


> We need food safety laws to protect us from thieving, corner cutting corps. It just so happens, they can put us small timers in a bind as well. But I don't see any reason, if the larger corps have to comply, that the smaller producers shouldn't.


I'm not a small producer in the sense that you are using the word. We use all of our unpastuerized milk for our family's use. I don't need the govt to tell me what I can eat, whether or not it's *safe* enough. I don't need them to decide for me whether the rabbit I raised a nd butchered in the back yard is ok to eat, nor whether or not the milk from my Jersey Brown Sugar is ok to drink or cook with. I don't need govt boys making my decisions for me. I am a grownup who is perfectly capable of making those decisions myself...and perfectly agreeable to accepting the risks that might entail--meaning that I am not expecting someone else to pay for my bad decisions.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

I guess I would perhaps feel differently about the government "protecting" me if I felt that their actions were based on actual caring and concern. However, I strongly believe that their actions are unfortunately for sale to the highest bidder. Laws are passed to benefit Monsanto, not the consumer. Corporations don't pay top dollar to that bunch of lobbyists that slither through the halls where lawmakers congregate for the good of the consumer.

When I worked for Florida state government as a marine biologist, I saw first hand how and why the laws were made. And I am sad to be able to assure you that the beneficiaries are the last ones considered during the process. Money talks, and it also makes laws and buys legislative support.

So no, I don't agree that "we need food safety laws to protect us from thieving, corner cutting corps." They are the ones influencing the legislators to make the laws however they want them. Read those horrible allowances of nasties that are permitted in our food products (rat hairs, fecal matter, rodent bones, etc...) Those allowances were certainly not made to protect you or me. They were made to allow the giant corporations to play fast and loose with their sanitation practices and still legally sell their products to the unsuspecting public.

We as consumers need to be responsible for our own education, choices, and risks. Because the fact is that no one else can be counted on to put our interests first.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

So, it's okay to not have laws preventing corps. from cutting costs by putting melamine in milk products, poisoning thousands as is happening in China?


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

MamaTiger said:


> I'm not a small producer in the sense that you are using the word. We use all of our unpastuerized milk for our family's use. I don't need the govt to tell me what I can eat, whether or not it's *safe* enough. I don't need them to decide for me whether the rabbit I raised a nd butchered in the back yard is ok to eat, nor whether or not the milk from my Jersey Brown Sugar is ok to drink or cook with. I don't need govt boys making my decisions for me. I am a grownup who is perfectly capable of making those decisions myself...and perfectly agreeable to accepting the risks that might entail--meaning that I am not expecting someone else to pay for my bad decisions.


I wasn't arguing the instances you're describing, but those of companies whose products are consumed by many people, not personal use. I don't believe there are laws preventing what you're describing here, but only when those products get sold and are consumed by others.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

Welcome groundhogII, I caught the humor. Always appreciate humor. 

PP, if you think there aren't laws governing what we eat as individuals, take your meat to a butcher to process. I think the thought is we are on a slippery slope and it isn't rolling uphill. The inroads to decisions being made for us on every level are being put in place. NYS is looking at a cow tax (REALLY). I don't know what the minumum cow number is (if there is) but it would tax a dairy cow at $170.00 per head. That'll really help the small farmer. If you look down the road at that, just that alone could influence what MANY of us as individuals eat. Beef cows are at a different rate but again, that will influence what I eat, if nothing more than the price of it. :grit:


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

tab said:


> Welcome groundhogII, I caught the humor. Always appreciate humor.
> 
> PP, if you think there aren't laws governing what we eat as individuals, take your meat to a butcher to process. I think the thought is we are on a slippery slope and it isn't rolling uphill. The inroads to decisions being made for us on every level are being put in place. NYS is looking at a cow tax (REALLY). I don't know what the minumum cow number is (if there is) but it would tax a dairy cow at $170.00 per head. That'll really help the small farmer. If you look down the road at that, just that alone could influence what MANY of us as individuals eat. Beef cows are at a different rate but again, that will influence what I eat, if nothing more than the price of it. :grit:


We need a rat tax. $500,000 a head for each rat walking around in a designer suit.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

pickapeppa said:


> I wasn't arguing the instances you're describing, but those of companies whose products are consumed by many people, not personal use. I don't believe there are laws preventing what you're describing here, but only when those products get sold and are consumed by others.


let's look again at the raw meat example. i can buy raw hamburger. it is my choice to cook it or to eat it raw. i am an adult and i know that to be totally safe, i need to cook it. if i choose to eat it raw, i take a chance...but that is my choice. there is no reason why raw milk and unpasteurized dairy products cannot be labeled as such and let the consumer decide what to do with it.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

Can we bid on each rat? 

Good analgy Meloc. I think we are basically beyond thinking as a whole in this country. There are so many laws to "protect" us. Look at warning labels on store purchased meat! Like I don't know to wash the counters or cook the meat. Really, meat is probably more dangerous than raw milk. I wonder if there are stats to compare on the two?


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## Junkman (Dec 17, 2005)

texican said:


> I have to pick up roadkill on the way home each evening to eat... sometimes I swerve way off into pastures.....:icecream: anyone wondering, I don't have food at home...
> 
> Actually, it's somewhat irrelevant, as my legal address is somewhat vague...


Swerving into my pasture can be dangerous to your health. I live on the side of a mountain.:rock:


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## Junkman (Dec 17, 2005)

How did this get from home invasion to milk?


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Article in the Cleveland Plain Dealer

'Raid' at Manna Storehouse organic food co-op disputed by Lorain County Sheriff's Office

http://www.cleveland.com/plaindealer/stories/index.ssf?/base/iscri/1228901417175700.xml&coll=2


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

About the original post of has food storage become a crime- if you are a Bible believer- it says we are going there- penned 2000 years ago- 4th seal in Rev 6:6- "a measure of wheat for a penny, and 3 measures of barley for a penny" - control of the food supply, etc. Exciting times we live in- eh? Don't like it, but it's coming.


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## Stormy_NY (Dec 8, 2007)

Mike in Ohio said:


> Article in the Cleveland Plain Dealer
> 
> 'Raid' at Manna Storehouse organic food co-op disputed by Lorain County Sheriff's Office
> 
> http://www.cleveland.com/plaindealer/stories/index.ssf?/base/iscri/1228901417175700.xml&coll=2





> Assistant County Prosecutor Scott Serazin said any business that sells perishable foods must be licensed and follow regulations covering those who store and supply food. There is no exception in the law for a co-op, Serazin said, and Manna cannot ask customers to waive safety regulations.


I called Assistant County Prosecutor Scott Serazin and told exactly what I thought of his tactics. 

Dennis P. Will
Lorain County Prosecuting Attorney
225 Court St., 3rd Floor
Elyria, OH 44035

Phone (440) 329-5389


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