# Horse Slaughter Facility to open in Missouri



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Horse processing facility to open in western Missouri

Kansas Livestock Association 

Drovers CattleNetwork.com

June 11, 2012





A Missouri company plans to re-open an existing meat processing facility at Rockville, MO, to humanely process horses. Unified Equine Missouri announced last week it hopes to have the western Missouri plant open by the end of the summer.



The facility will be regulated and inspected by USDA to ensure all horses are humanely transported and processed according to federal regulations. Unified Equine Missouri claims it will adhere to standards that go above and beyond minimum government requirements. Developed by the International Equine Business Association, these standards will include video surveillance to ensure humane handling and a sophisticated, market-driven testing and traceability protocol. These systems ensure, to the extent possible, no stolen horse is mistakenly processed and all horses processed for human consumption are verified free of residues or other contamination.



Unwanted or unusable horses are at a particularly high risk of abandonment and neglect. Since the ban on horse processing was implemented in 2007, many have been transported thousands of miles to other countries where neither the U.S. horse industry nor USDA have jurisdiction over how the animals are handled.





Full text: Horse processing facility to open in western Missouri Latest News - Editorial, Grain & Cattle Markets, Current Stories


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

It's about time!


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## CJBegins (Nov 20, 2009)

As mush as I don't like it, it is absolutely necessary!


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Great news!!!!


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## featherbottoms (May 28, 2005)

A guy has been trying to open one in Roswell, New Mexico for a while now - I think it's been permitted by the feds already. I'm not sure if it's a reopen or a new plant but he's run into a LOT of opposition, including the Governor. There are hundreds of abandoned horses in that area and the ones at auction are going to Mexico instead of somewhere in the states. Seems like it would be a lot more humane to slaughter them here than transporting them across the border. But, there's an ongoing discussion about horses being "pets" or not. The antis are comparing them to dogs.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

There's still plenty of folks who raise horses for their table. Altho some may not like the idea, meat is meat to others.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I'm sure I'm going to date myself but every time somebody starts a thread on horse slaughter, I'm reminded of an old episode of All in the Family when Gloria & Mike buy horse steaks for a family dinner.


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## fordson major (Jul 12, 2003)

wr said:


> I'm sure I'm going to date myself but every time somebody starts a thread on horse slaughter, I'm reminded of an old episode of All in the Family when Gloria & Mike buy horse steaks for a family dinner.


i do as well, just means we watched too much TV. having Dutch friends, was not taken aback by horse meat on the table. one of the best ways of getting condition on our show dogs was horse meat, they ate better than us.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

As far as that goes, I will always remember talking to someone not long after I married someone in the Air Force and was 'off the ranch'. We were visiting with some people who had been raised in the city somewhere back East. I mentioned missing venison so much, having been practically raised on deer ... and one of the girls was absolutely horrified that I would even consider eating "Bambi's mother!"

It is all the culture, what you are raised to think of as 'edible'. I have to admit the first time I ate snails in Spain it was just a little difficult.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

I wonder what the standards will be as far as human consumption? is what you give to horses as far as shots, wormer, ect safe for human consumption? do they imagine a market will open up here or selling largely to europe, I wonder, I understand they stopped using horsemeat for pet food back in the 70's. Must be a big market overseas...


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

farmgirl6 said:


> I wonder what the standards will be as far as human consumption? is what you give to horses as far as shots, wormer, ect safe for human consumption? do they imagine a market will open up here or selling largely to europe, I wonder, I understand they stopped using horsemeat for pet food back in the 70's. Must be a big market overseas...


I think it would have to be a big market. Even in today's standards to be able to pick up horses even for $30-200 at an auction and then haul it all the way from the east coast to TX and then sell them across the board. There has to be money in it for every driver and middleman in the process or people wouldn't do it, ya know?

It doubles as a way to dump excess horses, but it's not really "waste disposal" it's a business of supply and demand. Everyone involved has to make some money out of it.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

wolffeathers said:


> I think it would have to be a big market. Even in today's standards to be able to pick up horses even for $30-200 at an auction and then haul it all the way from the east coast to TX and then sell them across the board. There has to be money in it for every driver and middleman in the process or people wouldn't do it, ya know?
> 
> It doubles as a way to dump excess horses, but it's not really "waste disposal" it's a business of supply and demand. Everyone involved has to make some money out of it.


I dunno, I was just reading up on the new regulations (listed below), I imagine it being a easy to dump unwanted riding horses might not work out, unless they have a plan for consumption other than human (maybe zoos or something). either folks are going to lie, or breed horses specifically to eat I guess, or they have other plans for the meat, because if the testing shows people are lying on the forms my guess is American horse meat will have no market overseas or here...for people anyway...


_America's horse slaughter trade faces a massive hurdle as Canada takes the first steps in complying with tough new European Union rules, effective from July 31.
From January 31, horse owners selling animals directly or indirectly to slaughter in Canada must complete and sign a form detailing the medications used in the preceding six months.

I mean, how much money is a killer buyer going to make on all of the "neglected" or "abandoned" horse, unless they have great shot records (and my gut says if they are neglected or abandoned, they don't) he is going to have to feed them for six months before shipping out...personally think it might fizzle out pretty quick as regulations will not make it cost effective

While there is list of medications that require a withholding period of six months, others such as the common anti-inflammatory drug, phenylbutazone, or bute, cannot be given to horses at all if they are to enter the human food chain.

The new Canadian requirements, especially as it relates to bute, is likely to hit so-called kill buyers hard, who may struggle to obtain the background of each animal to satisfy European Union requirements.

Bute is one of the most common drugs administered to horses, effective as a painkiller and anti-inflammatory agent.

An estimated 100,000 horses are shipped across US borders each year to slaughter plants in Canada and Mexico, to satisfy mostly European demand for horse meat.

The US has no horse slaughter industry and there is no federally-developed official birth-to-death record kept of each horse's health, medication and vaccinations, as now happens in Europe with horse passports.

US opponents of the slaughter trade in the United States have warned for months that the North American industry will struggle to meet the tough new European Union requirements.

Meat testing is likely to quickly reveal whether the drug-free declarations are working effectively to ensure the meat meets the drug-free requirements.

The Canadian Food Inspection Agency says horse owners who wish to keep their sale options open should record all vaccines, medications given (administered or fed) and record any occurrence of illness in their animals.

"The collection of this information will better prepare the equine industry for July 31, 2010, when it will be mandatory for all federally inspected equine facilities to have complete records dating back six months for all domestic and imported animals presented for slaughter," it said.

To help owners collect the necessary information, it is launching an Equine Information Document (EID).

It says it is the first step in the development of a comprehensive food safety and traceability programme for the Canadian equine industry, for both domestic and international markets.

Anyone selling a horse may have to provide an EID at ownership transfer, it said. 

The previous owner remains liable for the accuracy of information declared in the form, which details the identification of the animal for traceability purposes. 

"The document will require an owner-signed declaration to verify the accuracy of the information," the agency said.

It says there are a number of medications and substances that are prohibited from being given to equines intended to be slaughtered for human consumption.

It is unclear what moves Mexico will make, if any, to meet the new European Union requirements.

The merits of a domestic slaughter industry in the United States have been hotly debated. The last plants to close, in Texas and Illinois, primarily served the lucrative European meat trade.

However, it is clear that any redevelopment of such an industry would require a system similar to the European horse passport system to ensure the integrity of the meat supply. _


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

I kind of think when the regulations start being enforced, either a new industry of breeding horses for meat will have to open up, or it will fizzle out as not being cost effective..should be interesting to watch..


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

here is an interesting question; if a person is raising a horse for meat, and the animal injures itself, leg or foot injury, and the animal is badly lame and in clearly in pain but can still walk around, will they get slapped for neglect or abuse if they don't treat the animal and thus make it unsuitable for slaughter? what do folks who raise cows in that situation do I wonder?


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

farmgirl6 said:


> do they imagine a market will open up here or selling largely to europe, I wonder, I understand they stopped using horsemeat for pet food back in the 70's. Must be a big market overseas...


I honestly don't know where the market is, but up through the 90s I was going to horse sales regularly and meat market buyers were buying horses (based on estimated dress-out weights) for up to about $400. I know, because I was buying TB mare that were coming through to breed to my warmblood stallion and I had to bid over $400 to get some of them. Horses that were thin or small brought considerably less and I knew several of the 'meat buyers' that would buy the thin horses but they 'fed them out' ... put them out on unlimited grass or hay to put weight on them before hauling them to the slaughter plants. This also gave them a chance to check the sound, potentially useful horses to see if they could be sold privately.

My assumption would be that whatever market these horses were going to before the slaughter ban was imposed would be available again, though it would probably take some time.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

farmgirl6 said:


> here is an interesting question; if a person is raising a horse for meat, and the animal injures itself, leg or foot injury, and the animal is badly lame and in clearly in pain but can still walk around, will they get slapped for neglect or abuse if they don't treat the animal and thus make it unsuitable for slaughter? what do folks who raise cows in that situation do I wonder?


Cattle are treated for injuries sustaind and if they're treated with certain drugs, they have to be held for a specific period of time before they can be slaughtered. If an injury were severe, like a broken leg, I would call my butcher and have her processed immediately and you can darned sure bet your bottom dollar that if I didn't treat an animal in distress, I could be charged.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

farmgirl6 said:


> here is an interesting question; if a person is raising a horse for meat, and the animal injures itself, leg or foot injury, and the animal is badly lame and in clearly in pain but can still walk around, will they get slapped for neglect or abuse if they don't treat the animal and thus make it unsuitable for slaughter? what do folks who raise cows in that situation do I wonder?


Everyone I know who raises cattle, including the dairies I've worked for, ship them to the nearest slaughter facility right then and there. If they need meat or it's very severe, they butcher it for their own use.

I would venture to guess that horses being raised for meat would be less likely to injure themselves as they'd be left pretty much alone. The only dangerous time for them would be while they were being loaded to go to slaughter.

As far as breeding just for meat, I don't know about you, but I know a bunch of people who are doing that now. Down my road, there is a family with 5 horses, two barely, kinda trained, one a stallion - naturally pastured with a mare - all of them bite because of ignorant (not cruel, just ignorant) handling. When those people decide they can't keep them anymore, where else are they going to go? Do you want a biting, untrained 9 yo mare with crappy conformation?
I know a horse breeder who has horses with actually very nice pedigrees and good conformation. But, while she didn't quit breeding when the market tanked, she did quit training and quickly ran short on money for things like routine worming. So she has over a dozen young studs, from 7yos to foals, who're not trained, barely handled, heck, some aren't halter broken.
Someone may buy her fillies and young mares on basis of pedigree and conformation - but the colts? If you adopt a mustang, it's been handled about as much and is at least gelded for you.

Horses like that will have a steady market if slaughter re-opens. Which will mean that riding horses, by which I mean horses trained to ride and who aren't "quirky" will again have a greater value, so I see them being less of a problem to the human consumption regulations.
I would anticipate that horse feedlots would start to pop up to fill in the gap, draw a vial of blood to test for residues and then feed them out.
I would also anticipate that horse meat based petfood would become available again. I would buy it.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

Otter said:


> Everyone I know who raises cattle, including the dairies I've worked for, ship them to the nearest slaughter facility right then and there. If they need meat or it's very severe, they butcher it for their own use.
> 
> I would venture to guess that horses being raised for meat would be less likely to injure themselves as they'd be left pretty much alone. The only dangerous time for them would be while they were being loaded to go to slaughter.
> 
> ...


I wonder why they stopped putting it in pet food, I honestly did not know they did so long ago until very recently....


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

SFM in KY said:


> I honestly don't know where the market is, but up through the 90s I was going to horse sales regularly and meat market buyers were buying horses (based on estimated dress-out weights) for up to about $400. I know, because I was buying TB mare that were coming through to breed to my warmblood stallion and I had to bid over $400 to get some of them. Horses that were thin or small brought considerably less and I knew several of the 'meat buyers' that would buy the thin horses but they 'fed them out' ... put them out on unlimited grass or hay to put weight on them before hauling them to the slaughter plants. This also gave them a chance to check the sound, potentially useful horses to see if they could be sold privately.
> 
> My assumption would be that whatever market these horses were going to before the slaughter ban was imposed would be available again, though it would probably take some time.


maybe, but I don't think the same strict regulations were in force, I could be wrong. I had read somewhere horse slaughter was on the decline in this country just before the ban was put into place (probably because of the dog food thing), if I understand correctly in the end there were no US owned slaughter facilities, only those owned by European countries. my guess is folks who are going to have feedlot horses are the only ones who will find this viable, and with the drought and price of feed going up will be interesting. Horses are so much tougher on pasture than cattle, I would think a less viable option being raised strictly to eat, particularily as there is little market in this country (at least right now). from a practical point, this might be a tough way to make a living. If just buying up overbred horses, plumping them up, and then selling them to the killers maybe, but with the new regulations that will surely effect the horse meat market in this country creating a six month "withdrawsl" period and no bute what so ever, I would be suprised if this actually works out in any significant way. Now if they start putting it back in dog food, definately...


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== I'm reminded of an old episode of All in the Family when Gloria & Mike buy horse steaks for a family dinner. ===


My mom bought horse meat at the grocery store here in the U.S. when I was a kid. 

I don't remember when they stopped selling it.

I wouldn't eat the slaughtered horses they send overseas. They're full of vaccines and medications.

OTOH, altho I haven't, I would eat what *I* raise since I don't vaccinate and my equine haven't needed any medications or commercial dewormers for many years.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

Otter said:


> Everyone I know who raises cattle, including the dairies I've worked for, ship them to the nearest slaughter facility right then and there. If they need meat or it's very severe, they butcher it for their own use.
> 
> I would venture to guess that horses being raised for meat would be less likely to injure themselves as they'd be left pretty much alone. The only dangerous time for them would be while they were being loaded to go to slaughter.
> 
> ...


I agree there are suplus animals being bred for sure, there might be a market for the backyard overbreeder, but not sure that source is going to be sustainable to make it worth a processing facility to do horses. I think zoos might purchase some of the meat.... should be interesting....


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

wr said:


> Cattle are treated for injuries sustaind and if they're treated with certain drugs, they have to be held for a specific period of time before they can be slaughtered. If an injury were severe, like a broken leg, I would call my butcher and have her processed immediately and you can darned sure bet your bottom dollar that if I didn't treat an animal in distress, I could be charged.


does your butcher come out in that case, or do you have to transport the animal, or do most folks process themselves in that case?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Rogo reminded me, when I was a kid in NYC (80, early 90s) you could buy horse meat in the stores, at least in my neighborhood. But, a lot of people who ate horsemeat wanted it imported, because they said American horses had too many drugs all their lives. They also said that American slaughter houses were sloppy and didn't care about the meat being good - maybe the new regulations (and actually_ following_ them this time) will be a good thing for this country.

There will always be the over-breeder (I like that word, it's a good description) and there will always be those horses who, by nature or nurture, are just not sound, physically or mentally. Only time will tell if that would be a sustainable source for an industry. I would guess it would come pretty close.
I think if the industry actually became big enough to make an economic impact, I wouldn't be surprised to see drugs like bute become a lot more restricted.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

I remember seeing horse meat dog food in the store as a child. I am 30. I am sure horse meat dog food isnt available because of americans attitude toward horses as pets. I work at a vet and alot of people refuse to feed the rabbit and pea formula hypoallergenic dog food for the same reasons.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Otter said:


> Only time will tell if that would be a sustainable source for an industry.


Time has already told. The horse slaughter industry in the US did not end because it was unsustainable, it ended because of stupid legislation.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

tinknal said:


> Time has already told. The horse slaughter industry in the US did not end because it was unsustainable, it ended because of stupid legislation.


legislation made it illegal, but I believe it was on the decline already, once the food shortages from WWII were over horse meat consumption dropped off alot, I understand it is very dry compared to beef...and I don't think their were any US owned houses, just three french facilities because they exported the meat for human consumption. I think the ban on pet food was from the horse protection act but can't find anything hard and fast...still looking...I did not realize there are over 9.4 million horses estimated in the US, and at the most 138,000 or were getting sent to slaughter. Personally I think there will be a run on the glut of horses now, but it will be too prohibitively expensive compared to cattle to raise horses for meat. I can't imagine it taking off as a big new food source here, more expensive to raise and not as good as beef I guess...but could be...I guess if a slaughter house can process both horses and cattle, they might be okay...

oops sorry read that wrong, more like 5.5 million I think...


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## mrs whodunit (Feb 3, 2012)

farmgirl6 said:


> here is an interesting question; if a person is raising a horse for meat, and the animal injures itself, leg or foot injury, and the animal is badly lame and in clearly in pain but can still walk around, will they get slapped for neglect or abuse if they don't treat the animal and thus make it unsuitable for slaughter? what do folks who raise cows in that situation do I wonder?


I know our friend does when one of his cows becomes lame. He hauls it off to the to what the chance of recovery is. A poor chance then the cow ishsuled off to the butcher and goes in his and friends freezers.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

farmgirl6 said:


> legislation made it illegal, but I believe it was on the decline already, once the food shortages from WWII were over horse meat consumption dropped off alot, I understand it is very dry compared to beef...and I don't think their were any US owned houses, just three french facilities because they exported the meat for human consumption. .


I didn't pay much attention to the slaughter plants, where they were and where they shipped to or where their markets were, but all the time I was in MT and involved with horses, going to the auction sales pretty regularly, a lot of horses were sold to the meat buyers. There were 3 or 4 buyers at every sale I went to and they always bought everything that went below a certain $ amount, based on estimated carcass weight.

There was a big slaughter plant just over the WY line in NE ... I think it was North Platte, NE ... and all the horses that were sold at the sales in that area went there. I'd estimate there were a minimum of 100 horses at each sale sold to the meat buyers at the two monthly sales held in Billings, MT and you would see the trucks loading out after the sale.

Those approximate numbers seemed to be about the same through the 70s and up until 1998 and 1999, when I relocated ... although the prices fluctuated to some extent ... from about $.30 per lb live weight up to as much as $.70 per lb live weight.

There weren't as many horses that went to the meat buyers from the smaller sales I went to here in KY and they didn't seem to sell quite as high ... I did go to a couple of the sales fairly often here up until the ban on horse slaughter was passed. I don't know where the nearest slaughter plant was from here but that may have been partly the reason for the drop in price and buyers ... not as many horses being sold and further to haul them to a slaughter plant. But I certainly didn't see much change in numbers or prices all the years I was in Montana.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== Personally I think there will be a run on the glut of horses now, but it will be too prohibitively expensive compared to cattle to raise horses for meat. I can't imagine it taking off as a big new food source here, more expensive to raise and not as good as beef I guess. ===


Properly harvested and properly cooked, any critter will be delicious.

I eat beef, but it's not on my favorite list of meats.

I 'spose if you feed grain, it could be costly to raise equine for the table. I've never fed mine grain. I experiment quite a bit and do what works best. If I were to raise equine for food, I would start with the same way I've fed them for many years. Bermuda grass hay (no pasture here in the desert) and DE, free choice fed to geldings, mares (open, pregnant, lactating), foals, sire.

Since we all feed differently, folks would try many different menus.

And has been stated, equine wouldn't be a 'new' food source since they've been raised to go in the freezer for quite some time.

As long as I can keep the mules for riding, I don't think I'd have a problem putting the horses in the freezer! Would have to keep some breeders!
)

Oh my gosh....what if the mules taste even better???!!!


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Growing up (in the 80's) my stepdad worked in a (beef) slaughter house.

They shared the kill-floor with a 'sister' horse plant that was owned by a company in France.
One day a week they ran horses through.
All that horse meat was processed into 'value-added' products like salami and other cured sausages. 
It was very good.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

farmgirl6, I'm not sure where you get the idea that horse meat isn't good. Many fine restaurants have horse on the menu and we actually have a place in Calgary that serves horse and it can't be that bad because the last I heard, there's a 3 month wait for a reservation. 

The community I grew up in was primarily French and a lot of the old folks prefered horse and I've always been told that unlike beef, which can be pretty tough from an older animal, horse remains tender. 

I'm not sure if they will alllow horse for human consumption but I'm not as sure as you that the demand will be poor. You have a lot of families in need and historicaly, horse meat is cheaper and as long as you have immigrants, you'll have people coming to your country that aren't nearly as freaked out about the idea of alternative sources of meat.

The one thing I do know is that if the US reinstates the horse slaughter, prices will come back up where they should be and perhaps less people will consider them a disposable pet.


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## jdrobison (May 28, 2012)

you can thank PETA for the ban, and the decline in horse values afterward. lately you cant hardly give a horse away at a sale. have seen them go for less than $75, prob cost them more in gas than they made to get to the sale. we are not far from this plant and the jobs are needed badly here.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

farmgirl6 said:


> does your butcher come out in that case, or do you have to transport the animal, or do most folks process themselves in that case?


Quite honestly, I've raised cattle for a good many years and things like broken legs don't happen very often and I've found that when situations do arise, they usually tend to be situations where I can't salvage the meat. I've found that it's more common to have something get sick and a sick animal needs to be treated but there are those that don't respond to treatment and I don't need meat bad enough to eat a sick animal pumped full of medication.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Rogo said:


> Oh my gosh....what if the mules taste even better???!!!


I've read that the Apache preferred mule meat to horse meat.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

jdrobison said:


> you can thank PETA for the ban, and the decline in horse values afterward. lately you cant hardly give a horse away at a sale. have seen them go for less than $75, prob cost them more in gas than they made to get to the sale. we are not far from this plant and the jobs are needed badly here.


Before the local auction stopped having horse sales I saw several sales where horses went through without a single bid, not even $10. I talked to local horse people/traders and it was not unusual to have horses abandoned at the sale yard ... or for someone that brought horses to sell to come back out to go home and find someone had loaded a strange horse into their trailer.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

wr said:


> farmgirl6, I'm not sure where you get the idea that horse meat isn't good. Many fine restaurants have horse on the menu and we actually have a place in Calgary that serves horse and it can't be that bad because the last I heard, there's a 3 month wait for a reservation.
> 
> The community I grew up in was primarily French and a lot of the old folks prefered horse and I've always been told that unlike beef, which can be pretty tough from an older animal, horse remains tender.
> 
> ...


I've never had it, I have read alot of countries eat it; some countries do not eat it as part of their diet but do slaughter horses for other countries for the most part, like Spain I think. I was suprised to find the Roman Catholic church forbids the eating of horses? as does the Jewish faith.... I was just reading up trying to educate myself on the ins and outs of it, trying to research why consumption seems to have dropped off in this country before the ban; most of the sites I have read say it is a bit dryer and you often cook it with other fat or meats? but they do say the japanese love is as do many other countries; but most of the reading I can find seems to infer horses are not as efficent converting feed to flesh as bovines or pigs, however as the meat is cheaper it could be a trade off, that is an important points about the immigrants - I read unlike other other consumption animals the meat actually gets more tender as the animal ages! I would agree that the cheaper meat might be appealing, but I think in the end folks will be hard pressed to really make a substantial living raising and selling horses for just for meat, they are much harder on grazing land than cattle, much less efficient converting food to meat, and I think there will probably always be a bit of ew yuck factor in this country although I might be wrong. If they apply the strict regulations in this country, I don't know that a slaughter house that only does equine processing will be viable? I think definately if they start permitting horse meat in animal food...should be interesting.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I am trying to find a source of meat to feed my dogs and at one time considered buying old or lame horses for that purpose. I know....it sounds horrible, but honestly selling it to me to slaughter humanely is far better than the animal being trucked into mexico for slaughter. But the fear of Bute stopped me from doing so. Horses at auction are frequently pumped full of drugs to make them appear calmer or sound so they bring higher prices. Most "horse traders" don't have a sterling reuptation when it comes to unloading problem animals. I really don't see how this is going to work. Dog food producers are going to be worried about Bute too, as are the buyers for human consumption. I sure don't see the horse traders being honest about it either, if it means a sale. I hope and pray it does work but I really don't see how it can.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

farmgirl6, Canada exports a lot of horse meat and few people actually set out to raise meat horses and I don't think we've missed any quotas. You keep equating the horse meat industry to the cattle industry and they're very different. People breed cattle for either meat or milk but the horse market is vastly different. Horses are usually bought by order buyers from individual sellers or from auction sales and as long as people are going to breed junk to get junk, there's going to be a meat buyer at a sale willing to put it on a plate. 

Order buyers fill pens in feedlots where the horses are kept for a specific number of days, our H of A vets inspect regularly, sick animals are required to be treated, if medication is involved, they get moved back to a pen that would allow the medication to leave the horse's system and when a pen is considered finished, it's shipped for slaughter. 

I have two friends who are order buyers and quite honestly, they never have a problem finding healthy suitable horses. 

I also don't know if you're aware that there is a strong Asian market for live horses since the tuna supplies have been depleted and from Calgary airport alone, they ship two transport planes of live horses out weekly.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

wr said:


> farmgirl6, Canada exports a lot of horse meat and few people actually set out to raise meat horses and I don't think we've missed any quotas. You keep equating the horse meat industry to the cattle industry and they're very different. People breed cattle for either meat or milk but the horse market is vastly different. Horses are usually bought by order buyers from individual sellers or from auction sales and as long as people are going to breed junk to get junk, there's going to be a meat buyer at a sale willing to put it on a plate.
> 
> Order buyers fill pens in feedlots where the horses are kept for a specific number of days, our H of A vets inspect regularly, sick animals are required to be treated, if medication is involved, they get moved back to a pen that would allow the medication to leave the horse's system and when a pen is considered finished, it's shipped for slaughter.
> 
> ...


they would hold them for six months? I guess I am equating it to bovine and pig, because I am trying to get my mind around an industry trying to get back in business in what by all appearances seems like difficult circumstances and market conditions for long term success without some favorable things happening. I read the Japanese are particularily fond of horse meat, I read another country that eat almost all horse meat, but I forget the country. Are you in Canada? have they had any issues with the new European regulations about tracking health and medications?


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

BarbadosSheep said:


> I am trying to find a source of meat to feed my dogs and at one time considered buying old or lame horses for that purpose. I know....it sounds horrible, but honestly selling it to me to slaughter humanely is far better than the animal being trucked into mexico for slaughter. But the fear of Bute stopped me from doing so. Horses at auction are frequently pumped full of drugs to make them appear calmer or sound so they bring higher prices. Most "horse traders" don't have a sterling reuptation when it comes to unloading problem animals. I really don't see how this is going to work. Dog food producers are going to be worried about Bute too, as are the buyers for human consumption. I sure don't see the horse traders being honest about it either, if it means a sale. I hope and pray it does work but I really don't see how it can.


I tend to agree, I can't help but wonder if the new regulations are going to cause issues myself...one of the thing we have been tossing about here. And you are right, my biggest problem is the transport and care issues, if they crack the code on that, while I have the luxery of never having to consider sending an animal myself, I can see how it could be viable option for folks and a suplus from overbreeders...although I would prefer folks stop overbreeding myself (when pigs fly, right?)


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

SFM in KY said:


> Before the local auction stopped having horse sales I saw several sales where horses went through without a single bid, not even $10. I talked to local horse people/traders and it was not unusual to have horses abandoned at the sale yard ... or for someone that brought horses to sell to come back out to go home and find someone had loaded a strange horse into their trailer.


I heard that also, for sure you can't give a horse away, even a good one, and I think that has alot to do with the economy also and recent drought conditions as well. We all no I am no fan, but from a strictly unemotional business thought process it would have more chance of success if there was a good market for horses that don't have the proper medication documentation that looks like might the standard for this - i.e. pet food, although the bute thing might be an issue.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

wr said:


> farmgirl6, Canada exports a lot of horse meat and few people actually set out to raise meat horses and I don't think we've missed any quotas. You keep equating the horse meat industry to the cattle industry and they're very different. People breed cattle for either meat or milk but the horse market is vastly different. Horses are usually bought by order buyers from individual sellers or from auction sales and as long as people are going to breed junk to get junk, there's going to be a meat buyer at a sale willing to put it on a plate.
> 
> Order buyers fill pens in feedlots where the horses are kept for a specific number of days, our H of A vets inspect regularly, sick animals are required to be treated, if medication is involved, they get moved back to a pen that would allow the medication to leave the horse's system and when a pen is considered finished, it's shipped for slaughter.
> 
> ...


are they getting the horses in the states or Canada, do you know?


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

do foundries in this country still take horses (on the hook, so to speak) does anyone know? I am guessing they still use the hide and hooves for stuff, yes?


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

Rogo said:


> === Personally I think there will be a run on the glut of horses now, but it will be too prohibitively expensive compared to cattle to raise horses for meat. I can't imagine it taking off as a big new food source here, more expensive to raise and not as good as beef I guess. ===
> 
> 
> Properly harvested and properly cooked, any critter will be delicious.
> ...


They look like they would taste better


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

gone-a-milkin said:


> Growing up (in the 80's) my stepdad worked in a (beef) slaughter house.
> 
> They shared the kill-floor with a 'sister' horse plant that was owned by a company in France.
> One day a week they ran horses through.
> ...


ah so, from an economic side, that makes sense...

Ferdinand might get the last laugh on the Japanese, my guess is as Derby winner, he probably had bute a time or two before they made him into steaks


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

farmgirl6 said:


> they would hold them for six months? I guess I am equating it to bovine and pig, because I am trying to get my mind around an industry trying to get back in business in what by all appearances seems like difficult circumstances and market conditions for long term success without some favorable things happening. I read the Japanese are particularily fond of horse meat, I read another country that eat almost all horse meat, but I forget the country. Are you in Canada? have they had any issues with the new European regulations about tracking health and medications?


The bovine industry does not hold anything for 6 months and never have. The usual period for most vet grade drugs to leave the system is 30 day (some longer) so the animal is dropped back to a pen scheduled to be shipped during that period, they simply follow government required standards and since they are continually inspected, they have no way not to comply. 

The only problems we've had with Europe is that they don't want anything with implants and I'm more than fine with that and any experimenting I've done doesn't prove enhanced growth anyhow and as far as I'm concerned it should be tracked. As far as tracking, Canada implemented a herd of origin tracking system immediately after our first known case of BSE that's very effective so that's not a problem at all but there are no other complications and it's not an overly expensive program.


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## AugustRED (Apr 18, 2010)

Perhaps the FDA will start to regulate horse meds more like cattle/swine meds? If they viewed horses as slaughter bound livestock (though most aren't) and regulated the meds/vaccs/etc as being used in such it would help clear things up. On the downside it would probably also vastly decrease the available treatment options... 

One other thing to keep in mind with the new regulations is Mustangs would seemingly be prime targets being virtually untouched medically - wonder if it will induce rustling, dishonesty among BLM workers, etc? Hmm, just a though... 

While I&#8217;m not rich or planning on eating any of my horses I will be thrilled to see the prices climb back to a reasonable level & less clueless people getting into horses just because there&#8217;s a &#8220;free&#8221; one on CL&#8230;


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I would be thrilled to see the prices of horses go back up too. If you can only afford to pay $200 for a horse, chances are really good you can't afford to care for one properly. Of course the down side to higher prices is that more folks will breed them just to make a buck.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

wr said:


> The bovine industry does not hold anything for 6 months and never have. The usual period for most vet grade drugs to leave the system is 30 day (some longer) so the animal is dropped back to a pen scheduled to be shipped during that period, they simply follow government required standards and since they are continually inspected, they have no way not to comply.
> 
> The only problems we've had with Europe is that they don't want anything with implants and I'm more than fine with that and any experimenting I've done doesn't prove enhanced growth anyhow and as far as I'm concerned it should be tracked. As far as tracking, Canada implemented a herd of origin tracking system immediately after our first known case of BSE that's very effective so that's not a problem at all but there are no other complications and it's not an overly expensive program.


thats good...I say six months because I think that is the new reg taking place in 2013 for horse meat going to Europe, at least that is what I thought I read, I might be wrong


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

wr said:


> The bovine industry does not hold anything for 6 months and never have. The usual period for most vet grade drugs to leave the system is 30 day (some longer) so the animal is dropped back to a pen scheduled to be shipped during that period, they simply follow government required standards and since they are continually inspected, they have no way not to comply.
> 
> The only problems we've had with Europe is that they don't want anything with implants and I'm more than fine with that and any experimenting I've done doesn't prove enhanced growth anyhow and as far as I'm concerned it should be tracked. As far as tracking, Canada implemented a herd of origin tracking system immediately after our first known case of BSE that's very effective so that's not a problem at all but there are no other complications and it's not an overly expensive program.


*this is what I pulled from the article, perhaps it is incorrect?

America's horse slaughter trade faces a massive hurdle as Canada takes the first steps in complying with tough new European Union rules, effective from July 31.
From January 31, horse owners selling animals directly or indirectly to slaughter in Canada must complete and sign a form detailing the medications used in the preceding six months.


While there is list of medications that require a withholding period of six months, others such as the common anti-inflammatory drug, phenylbutazone, or bute, cannot be given to horses at all if they are to enter the human food chain.

The new Canadian requirements, especially as it relates to bute, is likely to hit so-called kill buyers hard, who may struggle to obtain the background of each animal to satisfy European Union requirements.*
forgive my ignorance, what is an implant? like a tracking device type thing?


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

I thought this was interesting - tho several years old - it is an opinion piece but I think has some accurate info on the new rules

New Canadian Horse Slaughter Regulations &#8211; Part II
By vcarson, on June 14th, 2010
My last post on this subject addressed the new Canadian regulations for horses that will be slaughtered and processed for edible meat.

Check here for a recap of the new rules. 

How will the new regulations change the way horses are handled, both before and after shipment to Canada? 

Will the new regulations affect the number of horses sent to Canada for slaughter? 

Will the new regulations put additional pressure on the current alternatives to Canadian slaughter (rescues and/or slaughter shipments to Mexico, for example)? 

Probably no one knows the answers to the above questions for certain, at least not yet. A few things are certain, though. The new regulations pertain to documentation that must accompany a horse (domestic or imported) presented to a slaughterhouse that is inspected by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA). The regulations require, along with information identifying the animal, a statement about the animal&#8217;s health record and medications/drugs administered during the previous six months. The only exception is a horse that&#8217;s younger than six months old. Each person who owned the horse over the previous six months must make a statement about what drugs or vaccinations were administered to the horse and on what dates. In the case of drugs, the statement must include dosages. The statement must also disclose any illness diagnosed within the past six months, and specifically whether the owner has knowledge of the animal being treated with a drug on a list of banned substances. The owner must certify that the information supplied is accurate and complete.

Is Canada&#8217;s move a good one? From a food safety standpoint, it&#8217;s certainly a move in the right direction. This is only the first in a series of new regulations that are intended to result in a database with full medical histories of horses by 2013. By that time, horses that have been administered a banned substance will be flagged and ineligible for slaughter. Much of the incentive for the new Canadian regulations is the issuance of new European Union regulations which went into effect in April, 2010. The new EU rules pertain to all horse meat intended for human consumption &#8211; both domestic and imported. In the EU where horses are more commonly raised for food, horses have an electronic &#8220;passport&#8221; linked to databases recording the entire health history of animals placed into the food chain. Electronic passports are flagged as suitable for human consumption or unsuitable for human consumption. In the absence of a full health history, the EU requires the horse to have a 180 day quarantine prior to slaughter. Canada exports horse meat for human consumption to the EU, and is thus subject to the new rules. It appears that the new Canadian rules are meant to comply with the 180-day quarantine rule.

What do the new rules mean for horses, livestock auctions and kill brokers? If the kill broker doesn&#8217;t have a six-month health record from the previous owner, I suspect it means either a) the horse will have to remain in a feedlot for six months &#8212; either here in the US or in Canada &#8211; before being transported to slaughter, or b) more horses will be shipped to Mexico for slaughter. Mexico will also have to abide by the EU regulations for exported horse meat, but Mexico also has slaughter plants for domestic consumption, which are subject to Mexican regulations only. Do the current kill brokers who currently keep horses for a matter of days or weeks before shipment to slaughter have the facilities and the cash flow to hang onto and care for horses for six months? Doubtful. For those in the northern half of the United States, that could mean a very long trip for horses headed to slaughter in Mexico. Is Mexico prepared for a bigger influx of slaughter horses from the US? Are the highway patrols prepared to enforce the rules about shipping horses long distances without food and water or in double-decker trailers? Note that in some states it&#8217;s not illegal to transport horses in a double-decker trailer if they&#8217;re heading for a feedlot.

Here&#8217;s an important point to consider: the new Canadian regulations pertain to horses presented for slaughter. They do not specifically pertain to horses crossing the border into Canada. Horses crossing the border into Canada must have health certificates and negative coggins, a certification that they&#8217;ve been in the US for the past 60 days, and have not passed through certain states with communicable disease problems (currently, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas) within the past 21 days. A horse can enter Canada without documentation required for slaughter. However, once a horse makes its way into Canada, if it doesn&#8217;t have a history starting with January 31, 2010 it can&#8217;t enter the slaughterhouse. Presumably, that means it&#8217;s off to a feedlot in Canada until a six month health history has been accumulated. That&#8217;s up to six months of food and care &#8212; and additional cost. I&#8217;m not sure whether standing in a feedlot constitutes &#8220;quarantine&#8221; under the EU rules &#8212; I&#8217;m still researching that.

The Canadian list of banned substances is quite a bit longer now than it used to be (although it still doesn&#8217;t include Ivermectin and Fenbendazole, two commonly used wormers that should not be used with food animals). Is a horse standing in a feedlot more or less likely to need medication? Feedlot operators are going to be faced with more challenges associated with six-month (versus days/weeks) stays: quarantine, communication of illnesses and treatment of illnesses and worming. While it doesn&#8217;t seem like the new regulations will decrease the number of horses crossing the border, it seems like the cost of getting them to slaughter will almost surely increase over the short term. 

Last but not least, the new Canadian rules don&#8217;t appear to have many enforcement &#8220;teeth&#8221; in them. Owners need only say that &#8220;to their knowledge&#8221; their horse has not been given any banned substances. The time period covered is only six months at the moment. The new rules do not seem to have any requirements for more stringent testing of horses with a seemingly-clean six-month record, to detect banned substances, although the EU rules require it. Until the new EU rules were issued, I understand that Canadian horses used for food were only routinely tested for roundworms. Without a significant amount of testing, it seems that there is still risk that horses unsafe for human consumption will be getting into the food chain. I would think that a Thoroughbred horse from the US with a lip tattoo would be an immediate red flag for testing, wouldn&#8217;t you? If a horse has been given a substance that requires a withdrawal period, it&#8217;s off to the feedlot. If a horse has been given a banned substance, then what? Has anyone considered the huge increase in horses going to rendering plants that might ensue? What arrangements will be made for humane dispatch of those horses heading to the rendering plant?

It will be interesting to see what (if anything) changes at U.S. livestock auctions as a result of the new Canadian regulations. Will livestock auction organizers begin to require owners to provide sufficient information necessary to complete a Canadian Equine Identification Documents? Will livestock auction operators flag horses with race or show records, and will kill buyers stop buying them? Will Canadian slaughterhouses stop doing business with US kill brokers because the cost of a six-month quarantine is too high and the percentage of rejected horses is too high? 

If you go back more than 10 years to the 2005 study of the economic impact of the horse industry in the US, 81% of horses were used for racing, showing and recreation. If we accept that percentage as probably still valid, then we only need to consider whether the majority of those horses have been treated with at least one banned substance in their lifetime. I looked over the list, and believe that 80% of the horses in my barn have been treated with a banned substance at some time in their lives. I don&#8217;t consider my horses part of the food chain, so I generally don&#8217;t pay much attention to the warnings on labels that read &#8220;should not be used for animals intended for food.&#8221; I&#8217;d be willing to bet that most other people who care for show and recreational horses don&#8217;t think about that either. 

Therefore, my completely unscientific conclusion is that the majority of horses in the US used for sport or pleasure are simply not safe for human consumption and should not be sent to slaughter. This is true regardless of other considerations about whether consumption of horse meat is good or bad, or slaughter of horses is humane or not. From a food safety standpoint, I think most of the horses in this country are unsuitable to be used for food.

And then there&#8217;s the final, painful question: what will happen to all those US horses who have been given banned substances? In the short term, it might mean that they stand in a feedlot for six months. If they can be identified before they get on the kill broker&#8217;s trailer, that&#8217;s good, right? But where will they go? Will horse rescues, already reporting that they&#8217;re full and turning away horses, be asked to take on even more horses? I think the answer to that question is yes, and we&#8217;re back to the age-old question of how to cope with unwanted horses. A topic I think about every day&#8230; and if you&#8217;re a horse owner, I hope you do too.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

farmgirl6, I was aware the new regulations were being worked on but I didn't know there were in place and I think it's a great step in the right direction. I know that Ivermectin is not banned for use in beef cattle and don't think it ever will be because of mortality rates and unthriftiness assoicated with parasites but I do know that it is treated like many other meds. I don't know if it has a required time before you can consume but I do know that most guys up here typically treat in the late fall/early winter and steers are also generally sold in the fall and I would guess that when the feedlots process incoming cattle, that would be part of the process. 

The implants I was refering to are growth hormones and I don't agree with them at all and personally feel that if people are going to use them, the public should be aware what they're consuming. I've never used them and have no intention of starting now. 

Our tracking system for cattle is a very simple system but has been highly effective for trace backs. The government produces a bar coded ear tag that can be purchased at any feed store (you only register your farm name and location for the series in the bag) and each calf born, gets a bar coded ear tag. No matter how many times that animal is bought and sold, that tag stays with them and no animal can be sold at auction or slaughtered in a licenced facility without.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

BarbadosSheep said:


> Of course the down side to higher prices is that more folks will breed them just to make a buck.


Actually I was just talking about this with a friend the other day. Uninformed folks breeding for a buck is actually less then it was 5 years ago, and a LOT less then in the first couple of years after the ban.

What I saw of it was this, the ban went on and prices dropped. Folks saw horses being advertised everywhere for $100, $50, free ... and thought to themselves, "well heck, I paid $1200 for my mare 2 years ago, she must be at least ten times better then those nags! I should breed her and sell thousand dollar horses"
And breed her they did, only to discover that they had produced - yet another - fifty dollar horse. If they could get $50 for their precious. 
Though many didn't want to drop their price, convinced that someone would know gold when they saw it, and sometimes even bred the mare (or a few mares) again. Three years later, they have a LOT more horses eating down their pasture, people are starting to ask if they're trained, wormed, have shoes - and not even giving 50 bucks (which at this point the "breeder" would be happy to take) when the answer is no.

I saw not only one-horse-in-the-backyard types do this, but also amateurs and even a couple of pros who should have known better, like the breeder I mentioned earlier who now has enough well bred, papered, unhandled, reasonably worthless horses to reduce 80 acres to dog fennel.

I think it will go back to what it was before. When the price of horses goes up, there will be a little surge in breeding, and then it will drop down again.
Because as the price goes up, people will want something for their money, so breeders who are producing the kind of horses that have _always_ sold will be able to get a good price again. 
While those who produce horses for slaughter (poorly bred, poorly handled) will drop out after a few foals.

Sadly, there will always be more to take their place, but I can't see anyone pouncing on it as a "get rich quick" scheme.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

There are overbreeders slaughter or no slaughter. I still know folks that are breeding their horses just for the heck of it or keeping that colt a stallion because it "has good bloodline"(well known names a few generations back, but don't most horses have known names several generations back?). No plans to add value to their stallion's name, just want him to trail ride and stud out to others for a couple hundred bucks.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

farmgirl6 said:


> I heard that also, for sure you can't give a horse away, even a good one, and I think that has alot to do with the economy also and recent drought conditions as well. We all no I am no fan, but from a strictly unemotional business thought process it would have more chance of success if there was a good market for horses that don't have the proper medication documentation that looks like might the standard for this - i.e. pet food, although the bute thing might be an issue.


Nope. The economy/drought played nowhere NEAR the part the closing of the plants did. 
For instance, the largest horse rescue group in our state saw, in the first YEAR after the plant closure more horses pass through their doors than they had in the previous eight years (since their inception) total.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

farmgirl6 said:


> are they getting the horses in the states or Canada, do you know?


Sorry, I missed this one. We ship two flights a week from Alberta and the last I heard, at least one full cargo plane came in from the US (the manifest always states 'via various US cities', lands long enough to refuel in Calgary and heads over. I can only speak for flights that come via Calgary airport because the test pilot was working there and still has friends that work in the back services. I would assume that if flights are coming through Calgary, there would be other flights through other airports.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Many of us harvest our critters for our tables. Many don't trust the processors 'cause they don't always get their own meat back.

As a porkaholic, I raise pigs. Used to raise the large farm hogs, but not knowing where I was going to live and hogs aren't allowed in some places, I went to raising the Asian Heritage Hogs. That's what the meat folks call the Potbelly pigs. The U.S. is the only country that considers the Potbelly pets, not livestock. In other countries, they're a meal on the hoof.

The pet Potbelly that sits on the couch, watches TV with its owner, and is fed Potbelly pig feed is a lard pig. The Potbelly who lives outside running around on acreage and is fed like a pig should be, is a bacon pig.

My adults are 10 to 11 inches tall. Like having a bunch of puppies running around! You get 50 to 60 pounds of meat off of them. Not having a family around, the amount of meat is just right for me and my dogs get the bones after my meal. These pigs can be harvested, cooked and eaten the same day.

I also raise poultry, but don't enjoy eating it that much (except smoked duck!). I eat a lot of eggs both raw and cooked and eggs are on the menu for the pigs and poultry.

Got a bit off subject, didn't I!!


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

according to Andrew Zimmer and Anthony Bordain Horse ans Donkey are a sweet lean meat and if cooked right are quite delicious, spain and other countrys eat them, the only reason its a problem here is PETA and other tree huger people humanize their idea of what is a "pet" and demonize anyone who doesnt,


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> Nope. The economy/drought played nowhere NEAR the part the closing of the plants did.
> For instance, the largest horse rescue group in our state saw, in the first YEAR after the plant closure more horses pass through their doors than they had in the previous eight years (since their inception) total.


I agree completely, RRR.

Didn't we go over this issue in detail, with the same poster, a few months ago? With pictures and comprehensive links? Definitions too, if I recall correctly. :happy2:

Slaughter is back, and horses are better off for it imho.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> Nope. The economy/drought played nowhere NEAR the part the closing of the plants did.
> For instance, the largest horse rescue group in our state saw, in the first YEAR after the plant closure more horses pass through their doors than they had in the previous eight years (since their inception) total.


I will have to do some more research, as the recession began in 2007, the year after the plants closed in 2006, and the numbers don't quite add up, five million horses in the US, and only about 140,000 a year going to slaughter, from what I have read a much higher percentage of horse fell into neglect and abandonment than that percentage in the last few years- not trying debate as much as make sure the problem is recognized fully, if anyone believes in a poor economy like this that simply opening a plant or two is going to be a magic bullet for prices (though it may certainly, in theory, help with neglect, but seems that would depend on the strictness of the regulations) I would have to disagree....if one is going to buy a horse for other than putting on the table, one must be able to afford to feed and care for the animal, as we all know that is very expensive. Also I don't see the prices going way up immediately unless people have the cash to be able to indulge in what is really in most cases the luxery of of keeping a horse for pleasure and entertainment. Otherwise all horses, no matter how finely bred or well trained, are only worth what is the on the hoof price, about .30 on the pound. I think because of the economy, one of the unintended but likely side effects of resuming equine slaughter in the US will be many fine, well bred, well trained horses will be going into sausage - folks are going to pay the mortgage however they can. which, if done humanely, is better than neglect for sure..


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

wr said:


> farmgirl6, I was aware the new regulations were being worked on but I didn't know there were in place and I think it's a great step in the right direction. I know that Ivermectin is not banned for use in beef cattle and don't think it ever will be because of mortality rates and unthriftiness assoicated with parasites but I do know that it is treated like many other meds. I don't know if it has a required time before you can consume but I do know that most guys up here typically treat in the late fall/early winter and steers are also generally sold in the fall and I would guess that when the feedlots process incoming cattle, that would be part of the process.
> 
> The implants I was refering to are growth hormones and I don't agree with them at all and personally feel that if people are going to use them, the public should be aware what they're consuming. I've never used them and have no intention of starting now.
> 
> ...


that sounds like a very good program, my little Minnie Cooper came with a tag in her ear, and I had never seen that before, so perhaps it is being implimented here, or it might be state by state. I think a tatoo might work better on horses, or a tag in the ear?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

farmgirl6, I don't feel ear tags are suitable for horses but I'm not sure what would work best for grade horses. Perhaps a freeze branding program would be the best possible solution but it would be expensive for someone who breeds one or two mares a year to have to go out and invest in a set of irons. 

The breed of cattle I raised required a herd branding system along with their registration papers which was simply a number system. The top number is a system the breeder establishes for a herd number (mine was double digit starting with 1 for bull calves & 2 series for heifers) with a 2 digit number below that for the year of birth. Essentially, the second bull calf born this year would read, 12 over top of 12. It's a very expensive to set up because you ultimately need 10 additional branding irons.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

farmgirl6 said:


> .... if anyone believes in a poor economy like this that simply opening a plant or two is going to be a magic bullet for prices (though it may certainly, in theory, help with neglect, but seems that would depend on the strictness of the regulations)


I think most people involved in the horse industry, particularly those that are, in fact breeders, do not think a repeal of the horse slaughter ban is going to be any kind of a magic bullet for prices. However, the big majority of them seem to agree that it will help with the neglect issues simply by providing a way to solve the 'unwanted horse' problem.

When people can't afford to feed their horses and can't sell them or give them away ... and taking them to the 'back 40' and putting them down humanely themselves isn't an option because they don't even have a 'back 40' but basically a backyard ... and (as happens in many places) it will cost between $150 and $600 to have a single animal euthanized and disposed of ... that is when horses starve to death.

Even if slaughter prices are not high, if they are high enough that the horse sells and at least covers the cost of trailering and stock yard fees ... they will get taken to the auction rather than being turned out to starve.

Right now, with no slaughter plants operating in the U.S., the profit margin on horses taken to Mexico or Canada to slaughter is so narrow that small auction sales and those a long way from the borders simply don't have buyers for meat market horses. The buyers are going to lose money on them so they don't go and they don't buy them.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

SFM in KY said:


> I think most people involved in the horse industry, particularly those that are, in fact breeders, do not think a repeal of the horse slaughter ban is going to be any kind of a magic bullet for prices. However, the big majority of them seem to agree that it will help with the neglect issues simply by providing a way to solve the 'unwanted horse' problem.
> 
> When people can't afford to feed their horses and can't sell them or give them away ... and taking them to the 'back 40' and putting them down humanely themselves isn't an option because they don't even have a 'back 40' but basically a backyard ... and (as happens in many places) it will cost between $150 and $600 to have a single animal euthanized and disposed of ... that is when horses starve to death.
> 
> ...


Oh I agree there would be initially a short termn relief of the current overbred population (maybe, tho depends on the regulations), my main concern is of course, if it can't be done humanely and regulated and make money, it will be done unhumanely and unregulated to make money, people are not going to operate slaughter houses for horses out of the goodness of their heart, they see a market share...as a marketing person (which makes me one of the biggest skeptics) I am trained to see the pros and cons of every situation, every act and reaction, because to not do so could have a very bad result for the business. For this not to happen, the relatively humane processing of horses needs to be fairly profitable, with a broad base enough market (i.e. not just human consumption, because the fact is raising horses to eat will never be a cost effective as raising cattle, particularily if the price of horse meat goes up) and a real education program in place to make the new regulations feasible (which I've doubts in this country, although is sounds as tho Canada is all over it and I hope we adopt something similier - of course this brings us back to the regulation no one likes and the government monitoring). This may be a bit of a stretch at least intitially, and if some serious PR is not done things will be back they way they were, with everything being shut down yet again with new elected officials; thus is must be a sound sustainable practical practice or it will go the way of the dot.com bubble IMHO Also, I've a niggling thing that bothers me; if something makes good money for alot of people, and is lucrative, rarely does public opinion result in the practice being discontinued; sometime it morphs but rarely goes away. That is Capitalism - I have a suspician the corner had been turned in profitability as it was being done years ago, and it was on the downslide; the days of the ranch horse no longer sound, the family cart horse/farm horse beyond his prime, ect were on the wane, which I think we down to just three houses, all operated by overseas companies. So the question becomes, once the glut of horses in this country due to the economy is used up, then what? 140,000 sounds like a lot, but is actually something like .000312 percent of the horse population, There needs to be a practical solution; i.e. returning horse meat to pet food, developing a market in this country for immigrant populations, and cooperation with foundries for "on the hook" transport, a vastly more humane method of transport, for animals that do not meet human or pet food consumption guidelines, and I fear only dual process facilities who can adapt to the market waves will be able to do a good job with this.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== If you can only afford to pay $200 for a horse, chances are really good you can't afford to care for one properly. ===


I wonder where this mindset came from. 

I've had free dogs all my life and paid (very little) for only two of them. They've all had a life better than many humans do.

All my equine and other species were not costly and lived wonderful lives. Well, I did pay $1,000 for one equine and he lived a wonderful life for many years, the same as those who were less costly.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Ditto what SFM said. 

OP, please don't take this the wrong way, but you are quoting something you read while I am speaking from experience. I was VERY heavily involved with horse rescue for years and can state as fact that at no time other than soon after the plants closed did we have a jump like this. Nor are the numbers going down. Hitting a plateau, perhaps, but not decreasing. 

Irish- I had forgotten that.......


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

Rogo said:


> === If you can only afford to pay $200 for a horse, chances are really good you can't afford to care for one properly. ===
> 
> 
> I wonder where this mindset came from.
> ...


I think the difference is, you probably could have paid more for them, but didn't and probably could afford to care for them properly; I guess the idea is horses are so expensive to keep in most cases -


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== I guess the idea is horses are so expensive to keep in most cases ===


Guess it depends on how you choose to do things. I don't think they're expensive to keep.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

I guess time will tell if simply offering horse slaughter in this country will have a big impact on horse prices and neglect, or if the economy needs to turn around in a significant way to see any real changes. I've my doubts, two many strikes to be an easy call and such a relatively small percentage of animals compared to the general population going to slaughter before the ban. The new regulations on withdrawal times and what you can and can't give a horse intended for slaughter for human consumption, the likelyhood of bad public backlash, and the somewhat limited market at this time (at least with strict regulations) which I am afraid can't be expanded with some marketing and PR; then see sentance above...my fear is it will not be profitable without rules being bent or broken, and acceptable treatment being a secondary concern...and any positives we see to increase in horse prices and animals being neglected will come a quite a cost ethically...I am hoping not...


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I personally don't think we will see a big change in horse prices overall until the economy turns around.

I do think we will see a change in the numbers of horses going to rescues, dying of starvation or being turned out/ put in someone's pasture quite a ways from home if there is a way to sell them. Most people, with a horse that they cannot maintain or that isn't useful, will go to the trouble to take them to an auction if they can be assured that they will get enough to at least over the expense of getting them to/through the salering rather than let them starve or turn them out to starve.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Rogo said:


> === I guess the idea is horses are so expensive to keep in most cases ===
> 
> 
> Guess it depends on how you choose to do things. I don't think they're expensive to keep.


Rogo, a lot of horse owners have to buy every bite their horse eats. Or worse, pay boarding! They don't have the land you have to help with feed bills. And because of that lack of land, their horses also require regular farrier visits.

I'm much like you. My horses don't cost me much because thy have a lot of room and I only have to feed them part of the year. I'm also their farrier. And like you my horses didn't cost much to buy either. My priciest horse was $400 lol


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

farmgirl6 said:


> I guess time will tell if simply offering horse slaughter in this country will have a big impact on horse prices and neglect,


Of course it will.
For one thing, it was not coincidence that horse prices plummeted and neglect and abuse skyrocketed when the slaughter houses closed.

My mare, Bracken, was advertised for sale for $350 (a little less then what she'd likely bring for slaughter, was that an option) I wanted another horse that they had and they threw Bracken in for 50 bucks. She's a nicely built 4 (now 5) year old bay, grade QH, 15 HH, perfectly sound, but very green.

Now, she's pretty lucky, I take very good care of a horse and was well able to care for two - but not everyone is. Do you think that she would have been a thrown-in-in-trade horse if the owners could've gotten that 350 for her? Of course not.
And those folks didn't know me at all. They thought I was some green as grass city slicker who bought their whole spiel - they were dumping her on me. Both of them really, they tried to tell me the over 20 mare I _was_ looking to buy was only 12 - both of those horses _could_ have landed in a hard, nasty situation.

There will be no more fifty dollar horses to get thrown at who-ever will take them.

Also, from a business standpoint, you're looking at it as a stand-alone business. It's not. Think of it like scrap metal, or secondhand stores. There's all this merchandise, someone is going to find a market. 
New, small slaughterhouses that open up - you can run cattle quite nicely through a plant built for horses, though not vice-versa. Why wouldn't new small business owners build it that way to take advantage of more then one market?
I've heard of two already who are building places to horse slaughter regs, even though they anticipate mostly cattle. If they can run horses one or two days per week it ups their profit margin, and it is not significantly more expensive to build it that way if you're building from scratch.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Don't feed the :trollface.


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

all I care about is that they do follow regs and that they will check these horses going to be processed to insure they aren't stolen. I have had actual nightmares during my stay at my former residence that my ex landlord would take my ladies for what ever reason and sell them for slaughter just because (he ended up being one of the worst landlords I have ever met). I mean it could happen, peoples livestock get stolen all the time and with a slaughter house right here in missouri...would make it alot easier for people to make some bucks. 
I have even thought about having my 2 horses micro-chipped just in case but would that really keep them from being stolen or processed? I am not against it for I do see a need, and I do hope to see prices go back up but think that is still going to be a long journey. 

I bought my little connemara mare for 400 and the lady threw in a quarter pony for free because she got told by an official she had too many and to get rid of some, was able to place the QP with an equestrian riding facility as a training pony (after groceries and vet care to get her in better shape). Oh and I got my palamino FREE from a friend that had too many horses for their property (seeing a trend here). 
Mine haven't been expensive to care for because I do have a decent pasture for them, I do my own trims, I swing the 8 dollars for wormer _when_ they need it, and if I see a problem I address it immediately, I guess this isn't the norm? Is there something that I am doing wrong because I am *not* spending bookoo bucks?
The sad thing is I have 2 beautiful mares that if I was to sell right now I would get no where NEAR what they are worth and the same would go for any foals they would have, so I do hope things get better and the slaughter house doesn't create another can of worms...


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

Otter said:


> Of course it will.
> For one thing, it was not coincidence that horse prices plummeted and neglect and abuse skyrocketed when the slaughter houses closed.
> 
> here is the thing, there were only 100,000 to 144,000 going through one of three remaining houses when they were closed, less than 1% of the horse population in this country. I simply have a very hard time believing it was not largely the economic downturn, which began the year after the slaughter houses closed, that has resulted in the huge drop in horse prices, supply and demand, without the downturn in the economy I doubt that number would have changed much at all as far as the percentage of horses going to slaughter. Now in a normal booming economy, that argument can be made, but the idea that people will suddenly be able to sell horses for more money than they can now without an upturn in the economy, makes, well no sense, unless you accept the premise they are buying with the intent of selling on the hoof. During a strong economic period, that is a viable argument, but when people can't make the mortgages..I have my doubts...It may have contributed to the neglect and abandonment to some extent, but to accept that premise you must imagine all of the neglected and abandoned animals a. the owner was willing to send the animal to slaughter b.the animal was a candidate for slaughter. I believe there has been a huge increase in dogs and other pets being turned over for adoption, abandoned, ect as well with the downturn, and slaughter was never an option in those cases. I do accept the argument the economy is so bad, and people struggling to make ends meet, that with the downturn the animals going to slaughter of all types, could have increased substantially, including stolen animals and breeding operations set up in shady ways, assuming of course there was a sudden increase in demand (remember only a small percentage of horses were going to meet the needs of slaughter houses before it was outlawed anyway). Possible, with the growing middle class in asian countries and the assumption that the new strict restrictions were not being brought to bear on all markets.
> ...


agreed, a duel facility will have a much greater chance of success..the test will be the not the regulations as to the treatment and facilities, ect, but the regulations just passed by the Europeans and now being enforced in Canada, that have very strict requirements like a six month withdrawal period for many common vaccinations and wormers, and a no bute ever policy...


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

The half life of Bute is a bit over 7 hours and 90% of the drug is out of the body in 24 hours. I don't understand how the EU can impose a no Bute ever policy if they can't test the horse to see if it was ever given. 

Farmgirl6- do you have a link to the information what you're been referencing? I can't find anything current from an impartial source, ie. not a humane society, PETA, Wiki, etc... I'd like a link to the actual regs, please.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> The half life of Bute is a bit over 7 hours and 90% of the drug is out of the body in 24 hours. I don't understand how the EU can impose a no Bute ever policy if they can't test the horse to see if it was ever given.
> 
> Farmgirl6- do you have a link to the information what you're been referencing? I can't find anything current from an impartial source, ie. not a humane society, PETA, Wiki, etc... I'd like a link to the actual regs, please.


try these two, they are from the Canadian - I hope I posted these correctly, one lists the new requirements, the other should be the list of medications, ect....

Important Changes for Equine Owners - About the CFIA - Canadian Food Inspection Agency

Canadian Food Inspection Agency - Chapter 17 - Ante and Post-mortem Procedures, Dispositions, Monitoring and Controls - Meat Species, Ostriches, Rheas and Emus

there is a better site, I am blocked at work, might need to find at home


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

https://www.drafthorsejournal.com/read/autumn2010/horses-and-the-law?tmpl=component&print=1

this guy is a lawyer who has draft horses, it does not seem to have any leanings other than information


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Thank you for providing the links, however the first one is over 2 years old, and the second has no date and Canada has been importing horses from the US for years under those guidelines. I have no idea how long horses are held in Canada prior to slaughter, most of the medications given in the link have a withdrawal average of 30-45 days. I assumed that you had read the actual links...

Also, Russia, China, and Japan are among the largest buyers of American slaughter horses (via Canada) and they are not members of the European Union so there won't be a decrease to those countries unless they adopt the same regulations. It's unlikely that the EU regulations will have a huge impact on American horse slaughter.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

farmgirl6 said:


> https://www.drafthorsejournal.com/read/autumn2010/horses-and-the-law?tmpl=component&print=1
> 
> this guy is a lawyer who has draft horses, it does not seem to have any leanings other than information


Again, this link is over two years old and we've been shipping horses for that time period without a problem.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

Canadian Food Inspection Agency - Meat Hygiene Manual of Procedures - Chapter 17 - Annex E

wait, think I found it...

these are current links listed on the Canadian Food Inspection Website, am assuming they still apply no matter how old they are, am assuming the regulations are being inforced


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

farmgirl6 said:


> Canadian Food Inspection Agency - Meat Hygiene Manual of Procedures - Chapter 17 - Annex E
> 
> wait, think I found it...
> 
> these are current links listed on the Canadian Food Inspection Website, am assuming they still apply no matter how old they are, am assuming the regulations are being inforced


Exactly, and we've been exporting to Canada for years...


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you for providing the links, however the first one is over 2 years old, and the second has no date and Canada has been importing horses from the US for years under those guidelines. I have no idea how long horses are held in Canada prior to slaughter, most of the medications given in the link have a withdrawal average of 30-45 days. I assumed that you had read the actual links...
> 
> Also, Russia, China, and Japan are among the largest buyers of American slaughter horses (via Canada) and they are not members of the European Union so there won't be a decrease to those countries unless they adopt the same regulations. It's unlikely that the EU regulations will have a huge impact on American horse slaughter.


yes, I have read, them, and the lists attached, these are Canadian regulations from what I understand; does not seem to matter where the horse meat is being shipped according to what they have posted, and it is very likely the U.S. Plants will adopt something similier, i would think


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

farmgirl6 said:


> yes, I have read, them, and the lists attached, these are Canadian regulations from what I understand; does not seem to matter where the horse meat is being shipped according to what they have posted, and it is very likely the U.S. Plants will adopt something similier, i would think


Unless Canada changes _their_ regulations there isn't an issue, the US exports slaughter horses to Canada and they export to other parts of the world. The Canadian regulations that you linked have been in force for at least two years (and probably many more) and there has been no problem selling American horses to the Canadian processing plants during that time period. According to what you've linked this is a non-issue.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

this is current on the website listed as one of the medications not permitted in the use of equines for food, for the earlier question 
Phenylbutazone

Butazone 400
Butazone 1000
Butazone Concentrate
Butequine
Buzone Concentrate
Phenylbutazone
Phenylbutazone Injection
Phenylbutazone Powder
Phenylbutazone Tablets
Phenylbutazone Tabs

Note: All of the products listed carry an indication for use in equine (but not equine intended to be slaughtered for food)


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

farmgirl6 said:


> this is current on the website listed as one of the medications not permitted in the use of equines for food, for the earlier question
> Phenylbutazone
> 
> Butazone 400
> ...


As I said before the half life of Bute is 7 hours and 90% of the drug is out of the body in 24 hours, how are they going to test for it? Not to mention that reg has been in effect for at least two years...


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> As I said before the half life of Bute is 7 hours and 90% of the drug is out of the body in 24 hours, how are they going to test for it? Not to mention that reg has been in effect for at least two years...


I dunno, can't find any information telling me why they specifically ban it, i.e. health studies, ect...that is why I asked how the new regs were working out in Canada several posts ago, it seems to be going smoothly then, have they done any follow up inspections to check compliance that you are aware of...are they on track for the 2013 total database for all horses I think they are planning?...wish the FDA or some government agency would post the number of horses being shipped from the US to Canada by year, I did read that the US can around some of this by shipping horses across the border with only the requirements, well, for shipping a horse across the border, like coggins and shot records,and it becomes the responsibility of Canada (which would be kinda crappy of US buyers but not suprising) Am trying to find some info on how well the EID is working on American horses heading to Canada for slaughter...

I think there are a couple other topicals also that don't make much sense...


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

farmgirl6 said:


> I dunno, can't find any information telling me why they specifically ban it, i.e. health studies, ect...that is why I asked how the new regs were working out in Canada several posts ago, it seems to be going smoothly then, have they done any follow up inspections to check compliance that you are aware of...are they on track for the 2013 total database for all horses I think they are planning?...wish the FDA or some government agency would post the number of horses being shipped from the US to Canada by year, I did read that the US can around some of this by shipping horses across the border with only the requirements, well, for shipping a horse across the border, like coggins and shot records,and it becomes the responsibility of Canada (which would be kinda crappy of US buyers but not suprising) Am trying to find some info on how well the EID is working on American horses heading to Canada for slaughter...
> 
> I think there are a couple other topicals also that don't make much sense...


Until the CFIA's database is implemented it's a moot point.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> *The half life of Bute is a bit over 7 hours and 90% of the drug is out of the body in 24 hours.* I don't understand how the EU can impose a no Bute ever policy if they can't test the horse to see if it was ever given.


Not according to this it lingers well over a week.



> Phenylbutazone may be detected in the
> urine for at least 7 days following
> administration.
> Phenylbutazone may alter the result of
> ...


http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Rx_Info_Sheets/rx_phenylbutazone.pdf


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

arabian knight said:


> Not according to this it lingers well over a week.
> 
> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Rx_Info_Sheets/rx_phenylbutazone.pdf


This is where I got my information: http://origin.library.constantconta...3837-91/Drs+Day-King-Henneke-Evans+letter.pdf

"Reports by Dr. Thomas Tobin and associates of the Maxwell H. Gluck Equine Research Center
have shown that the half-life of phenylbutazone in the horse is 7.22 hours. These researchers have
demonstrated that 90% of a dose will be eliminated in 24 hours. At 48 hours post administration the
level of phenylbutazone in the blood was less than 0.4% of the initial dose and at 72 hours it was 0.02%."

My source is relevent to bute in slaughter horses.


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## farmgirl6 (May 20, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Until the CFIA's database is implemented it's a moot point.


wait, I am confused, I thought the restrictions and EID's were already being used, and the list from the database being applied..these standards as you noted were supposed to be applied two years ago.., are they not being implimented yet?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

farmgirl6 said:


> wait, I am confused, I thought the restrictions and EID's were already being used, and the list from the database being applied..these standards as you noted were supposed to be applied two years ago.., are they not being implimented yet?


The regulations that you linked are in place now, and been since at least 2010, the database won't be implemented until 2013. According to your links the database will require six months of medication verification.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Plans for horse processing plants gain momentum
Companies are considering opening horse slaughter plants in Missouri, New Mexico and Oregon in the wake of federal reinstatement of funding for plant inspections. Advocates say the proposed plants would help local economies and humanely address the escalating horse abandonment problem in the U.S. By 2008, some 138,000 horses were being sent to Canada and Mexico annually from the U.S. for slaughter, according to a Government Accountability Office report. Chicago Tribune/Reuters (free registration) (7/11)



Okla. may get 2 horse processing plants
Oklahoma state Sen. Mark Allen, with the help of Wyoming state Rep. Sue Wallis, hopes to see horse processing plants open in Oklahoma now that a ban on slaughter has been lifted. In addition to providing what supporters say is a humane alternative for horses who otherwise might be abandoned and left to starve by owners who can no longer afford them, the processing plants would help reinvigorate local economies, advocates say. KJRH-TV (Tulsa, Okla.) (7/9)


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