# Dexters - Learned a Lot Today



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

Learned a lot about Dexters today - some of which is scary.

1. Dexters can carry the Bulldog gene which is a recessive gene that when expressed causes calfs to be aborted and born with virtually no bone structure. I.E. only buy Bulldog free tested stock.

2. Come mainly in black (least expensive), Dun (next least expensive), Red (very expensive).

3. Come polled and horned. Polled more expensive. 

Therefore a polled homozygous red heifer is the most expensive - in the neighborhood of $2K at 90 days old.


----------



## ~Tomboy~ (Oct 13, 2005)

Hi Yucca,

In Dexters the Chondrodysplasia (bulldog) gene is NOT recessive. It is a dominant gene.

Mating a carrier bull to a carrier female has a 25% probability of producing a bulldog calf, a 50% probability of producing a carrier calf and a 25% of producing a non-carrier calf. Mating a carrier of either sex to a non-carrier of the opposite sex has a 50% probability of producing either a carrier calf but no chance of a bulldog calf. Mating two non-carriers produces only non-carriers calves: no carrier or bulldog calves.

IF you can find a homozygous polled red heifer for 2K I would say that's a great price, if the heifer was heterozygous polled that would be more in line.


----------



## ~Tomboy~ (Oct 13, 2005)

OK need to back track some.

The last heterozygous polled red heifer I knew of that was sold went for 3K.
Their numbers are very few probably less than 75 animals.

As far as a homozygous polled red heifer, I personally don't know of any, my guess would be less than a handful.

Hope this helps.


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

Barbara - what you described in your genetics example is classic recessive gene expression. Its the same as blue vs brown eyes in humans. Brown eyed male who carries recessive blue mated to brown eyed female who has recessive blue gives 25% brown eyed with no recessive, 50% browned eyed with recessive blue, and 25% blue eyed double recessive. If bulldog was dominant the heterozygous animals would all die from the dominant expression of the gene same as the homozygous carriers do.

And although I am wrong about the actual cost of a homozygous (homozygous negative bulldog) polled red heifer, they still would be the most expensive. 

I personnaly couldn't care less about the color, but I sure am not interested in any with the bulldog gene. Any I would consider buying would have to have been tested or come from two certified bulldog gene free parents. 

BTW - I spoke to a friend of yours today in Comfort, TX today about buying a cow or heifer later in the year.


----------



## Slev (Nov 29, 2003)

I already know a lot about Dexters, and I'm quite happy with mine. Always room to learn a little more though.... (someday I'd like to get a Jersey just so I can compare)


----------



## Nyx (May 13, 2006)

YuccaFlatsRanch said:


> Barbara - what you described in your genetics example is classic recessive gene expression. Its the same as blue vs brown eyes in humans. Brown eyed male who carries recessive blue mated to brown eyed female who has recessive blue gives 25% brown eyed with no recessive, 50% browned eyed with recessive blue, and 25% blue eyed double recessive. If bulldog was dominant the heterozygous animals would all die from the dominant expression of the gene same as the homozygous carriers do.


 The bulldog gene _is_ dominant. But it isn't lethal unless the calf has two copies of it. Heterozygous carriers _show_ the trait (evidenced in shortened leg bones and a more muscular build) meaning the trait is dominant. Recessive traits need two copies before they show. Mating two heterozygous for the bulldog gene gives a chance for a bulldog calf that has the lethal two copies. Mating a heterozygous with a normal (not having the bulldog gene) Dexter means there is *no* chance of a bulldog calf.


----------



## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

YuccaFlatsRanch said:


> Barbara - what you described in your genetics example is classic recessive gene expression. ......


Perhaps the term "bulldog gene" is throwing you. In fact, the chondrodysplasia gene that we're talking about is a dominant gene that causes dwarfism. When a single gene is present, you will always get dwarfing, as evidenced by shorter legs. While this is dominant, it is never fatal. Cattle with this form of dwarfism are simply short.

When a calf (or fetus) receives a double dose of the gene, it fails to develop properly and either aborts early or is stillborn. There are no cattle alive that have two of these genes. All living Dexters that carry a single copy of the gene are dwarves. It is only by mating two of these carrier cattle that you can pass on two copies of the gene to the fetus. All other mating combinations will pass on either none or one copy of the gene, so can not produce a bulldog calf.

You have the right idea in wanting all your Dexters to be tested for the presence of the gene. That will give you 100% peace of mind about never having a bulldog calf, since parents that don't carry the gene can't pass it on.

Many of us love the little dwarf Dexters and choose to keep them. However, I only keep a male dwarf. All of my females are non-carriers. Therefore, I will never have a bulldog calf. I may have some more dwarves, though, and that is very fine.

Genebo
Paradise Farm
Church Road, VA


----------



## ~Tomboy~ (Oct 13, 2005)

Chondrodysplasia is a large word, and can be very confusing when first learning about Dexters.

Once you identify (test) you animals to see if they are carriers or not it is really very simple. Thanks Genebo and the rest for explaining it better than I could.

We all have different ways of handling the gene. I have chosen to have my whole herd tested and they are all non-carriers. That means I will never have to test any of their offspring. 

Ah, you spoke to Mickey, she is a great person, I'm sure she'll treat you right.


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

Yes I spoke to Mickey and we are going to see her animals this next weekend.

My college minor was in genetics and whatever people want to call the "bulldog gene" - I want no part of it. I NEVER allow major faults to be bred into any of mine stock - at least knowingly.

It is good for people to know about the Bulldog gene because as Mickey indicated - not everyone is willing to either talk about it in their herd, and even less seem to be willing to test for it.


----------



## Carol K (May 10, 2002)

YFR,
I hope we can welcome you to the wonderful world of Dexters soon then!
You have a great bunch of people in Texas, they will help you out. See if you can set time aside to come to Colorado in June for our AGM and show, it will be a good one.

Carol


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

I will change from Beefmasters to Dexters soon - that is not a question. I have to wait until my cow has her calf in late February and wean it in June to sell her.

I will however be VERY CAREFUL who I get one from and it will not have the bulldog gene whatsoever. Of coourse that is how I buy all of my stock. You cannot ever go wrong in getting the best quality when beginning a new herd/flock. Superior foundation stock is the only way to go even if you don't plan on raising very many of a type of critter. The way I figure it is I can raise twice as many Dexters as I can Beefmasters and unfortunatly that will be 2 cows with calves. The calves will be either for selling or for my own meat or sell one and eat one (the boys better watch out).

I figure I can home butcher a 600 lb animal. That would be a 375 lb hanging carcass and that in 185 lb halves is manageable for my neighbor and I. A 1200 lb beefmaster steer is a bit more than we want to handle.


----------



## Carol K (May 10, 2002)

YFR,
I too have tested all my animals and have a Chondro. free herd.

Carol


----------



## ~Tomboy~ (Oct 13, 2005)

YuccaFlatsRanch said:


> I will however be VERY CAREFUL who I get one from and it will not have the bulldog gene whatsoever. Of coourse that is how I buy all of my stock. You cannot ever go wrong in getting the best quality when beginning a new herd/flock. Superior foundation stock is the only way to go even if you don't plan on raising very many of a type of critter.


I couldn't agree with you more.

Dexters will also be at The Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo again this year in March. Wish I could make it but it's smack in the middle of calving time.

If you can't make it to Houston or Colorado, there is the 2008 AGM in TEXAS :hobbyhors .
I'm planning for that one now.


----------



## Terry W (Mar 10, 2006)

Something you folks are missing out on when relaying the 25%/50%/25% ratios of free/carrier/affected.... That is ONLY a mathematical formula for predicting the possibility of what MAY happen when breeding carrier to carrier-- it is NOT what happens in the REAL WORLD....

There is NO SUCH THING as a simple recessive-- that has been proven and verified. If you like a solid black bull, and he is "clear" that does NOT mean he is not carrying an allele that may help future generations express the undesired characteristics if/when he is bred to a carrier cow. The prepotency of an animal may or may not mask characteristics for generations, then someone may do what they thought was a well researched breeding, and wind up trying to lay the blame for a 'mishap' on the owner of a sire or the breeder of their female. when what really happened was Nature. I find it laughable that so many breeders 9 of any animal) state they have perfected the "art" when their products do well, then call breeding a 'crapshoot" when the results are poor. They refuse to acknowledge that there is a force bigger than all of us, that can throw a major wrench into our plans. That force is not going to follow a man-made chart designed to predict the POTENTIAL POSSIBILTY of an occurance, even though that chart was developed after years of recordkeeping.


----------



## Carol K (May 10, 2002)

Terry W,
the Chondro gene in Dexters is Dominant. A tested clear bull is just that, a tested clear bull.

Carol


----------



## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

Terry W,

You have given a good picture of what happens with a recessive gene. However, the chondro gene in Dexters is dominant. As Carol K said, if a Dexter is tested to be free of the gene, then there is zero chance of that gene being passed on to that Detxer's progeny, unless it comes from the other partner in the breeding, who is a carrier of the gene.

I'll repeat what I've said before: the chondro gene is not a stealth gene. It shows it's presence in the shape of the animals who carry it. That's where the short legged dwarf Dexters come from. The long legged non-carrier Dexters do not carry the gene in any form and can't pass it on. Ever. DNA testing will tell about those Dexters who defy the stereotypes and can't be positively identified by sight.

Here's the odds:

Mating a non-carrier to a non-carrier gives a zero chance of producing a carrier calf. No ifs ands or buts.

Mating a non-carrier to a carrier gives a 50% chance of producing a non-carrier calf that is totally free of the gene and can never pass it on. The other 50% chance will produce a dwarf carrier calf, with one copy of the gene and the possibilty of passing it on.

Mating a carrier to a carrier gives a 25% chance of producing a non-carrier calf that is totally free of the gene and can never pass it along. Another 50% chance will produce a carrier calf with one copy of the gene and the chance of passing it along. The final 25% chance will produce an embryo with two copies of the gene. This embryo will abort early or be born dead. This is the infamous "bulldog calf".

Obviously, no one needs to ever have a bulldog calf. The reason that some were born in the past is that no one knew exactly how the gene worked until an Australian study defined it. The only reason that a bulldog calf might occur today is that someone might not be informed or else choose to take that chance because they so love the little dwarf carrier Dexters.

I like the dwarf Dexters, but won't chance the bulldog calf. Therefore, I only keep long legged non-dwarf females. Many people have opted to only keep long legged non-carriers of both sexes, so for them, this whole issue is meaningless. They will never breed a dwarf carrier calf.

Genebo
Paradise Farm


----------



## ~Tomboy~ (Oct 13, 2005)

Genebo, Very well said.

I was looking for one of those applauding smiley faces to use, just didn't see it.


----------



## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

Barbara,

Thank you, but I made a mistake when I originally posted. I had the odds wrong for non-carrier to carrier. I edited the post to correct it.

Out of 11 births from my carrier bulls over my non-carrier cows, I've had 7 non-carrier calves and 4 carriers. I believe that the difference between my luck and 50/50 is that the carrier semen is not as likely to fertilize. That and the possibility that an egg fertilized by carrier semen may not implant. The result here being that it takes another cycle before the cow is bred, and it isn't noticed.

Genebo
Paradise Farm


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

"Obviously, no one needs to ever have a bulldog calf. The reason that some were born in the past is that no one knew exactly how the gene worked until an Australian study defined it. The only reason that a bulldog calf might occur today is that someone might not be informed or else choose to take that chance because they so love the little dwarf carrier Dexters."

AND UNFORTUNATELY as a breed becomes popular less importance is usually placed on purging the herd of "defective" animals. The almighty dollars wins far too frequently. In each of the forums you occasionally hear about Linebreeding vs Inbreeding. They are essentially the same - you can get some spectacular animals this way as you double up the positive genes. You can also get some disasters genetically. The SECRET is not in which animals you keep, but in ensuring you KILL or neuter ALL but the extraordinary animals. Money however gets in the way of doing this - look at dogs and AKC - its amazing how many good breeds of dogs have become popular and subsequently become garbage due to selling of inferior animals.

It is possible to eliminate the Bulldog gene totally from the Dexter breed, but doing so would severly impact the numbers of the animals available. TOO MANY BREEDERS just don't care.

I will only have Bulldog free Dexters when I decide to purchase one.


----------



## Terry W (Mar 10, 2006)

Genebo-- EVERYTHING is polygenetic-- Just because ONE LOCUS is not showing up in a test, does NOT mean the animal is not hiding factors, yet unidentified, that contribute to the expression later on down the line.. ALWAYS breed expecting something "odd" to crop up--Even from "tested clear" animals. 
YFL-- A GOOD breeding program Does not abse itself on the across the board refusal to use something that may not be perfect. It is the imperfections that provide for genetic diversity to remain, and keep the overall population healthy.

I can't help it that I am a Diversity freak. A well respected geneticist died recently--he was my uncle--AS far as the AKC and registered dogs go-- it is the elimination of "flaws" that lead to the shrinking gene pools and health issues. I know too much about what has gone on in THAT venue--Color genetics can and do affect sensory genetics. They affect nervousesystem genetics, as well. 

Just because a gene is ALWAYS Dominant does not mean several unknowns are not important in the expression of that gene.. THAT is what I am trying to tell you-- Just because you see no carrots in the soup, does not mean there were none used in the stock.....


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

"YFL-- A GOOD breeding program Does not abse itself on the across the board refusal to use something that may not be perfect. It is the imperfections that provide for genetic diversity to remain, and keep the overall population healthy."

Can't imagine any harm being caused by only selecting Bulldog gene free animals to build a herd from. You may start with whatever animals you choose for diversity - I will just choose NOT to purchase your animals.


----------



## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

My little Dexter cow is the noisiest cow we have ever had. She is a real communicator. Her moo is really loud for such a small cow. I love the funny personality of the Dexter. She seems much more intelligent than our other cows. We bought two more Dexters right before Christmas. They had never been handled and were pretty wild. DH dehorned them both and we keep them in a lot close to the barn. Their personalities have undergone a marvelous change since we have worked with them. I have AI'd two of our Dexters. With semen available from bulls free of the bulldog gene it is not hard to be sure you don't get a bulldog calf.


----------



## Terry W (Mar 10, 2006)

YuccaFlatsRanch
Can't imagine any harm being caused by only selecting Bulldog gene free animals to build a herd from. You may start with whatever animals you choose for diversity - I will just choose NOT to purchase your animals.[/QUOTE said:


> I have no problem with that-- that just means that I will steer clear of your breeding program, as well-- simnply because of the narrow focus of the program-- The narrow foucus is what destroys a breed, and until genetics becomes an emphasis in your daily life, rather than " the perfect head" or "most milk" or even, "leg shape" then you will inadvertently be breeding yourself into a situation where no matter what you cross out to could cause a 'disaster' Now, back to tutoring the "Equine major" physiology students....who don't seem to realize what human circulation has to do with riding a horse---


----------



## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

Linn,

You're right!

You're also right about the Dexter's personalities. All mine have distinct personalities, but my bull is my favorite. He's very predictable. He'll come into the barn and stand near the hay rick, waiting for me to drop down some hay. Then he won't begin eating until I come down from the loft.

I like it best when he comes to the gate to get bread. I feed him a slice, he takes it just with his lips, then swoosh!, it disappears like a dollar bill in a vending machine.

I lock my chickens up after dark each night. I walk through the Dexters without any thought to danger. They're so gentle and I always have a pat and a rub for each one as I go by. All but the youngest one. She's just a month old and hasn't learned to trust, yet.

My Dexters are very quiet. You never hear one of them unless something is up. Maybe a calf wandered too far from mama or a dog passes by. Or the neighbor's cows come over to the fence. Then my bull puts on his very best singing voice and goes to courting.

Genebo
Paradise Farm
Church Road, VA


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

"I have no problem with that-- that just means that I will steer clear of your breeding program, as well-"

Well avoiding my breeding would be your choice. In this fight I have no OX TO GORE - I don't own any Dexters - YET. However, "TOMBOY" and others have gone through a awful lot of effort to ensure their breeding has eliminated this "dead end gene" from their herd and as such are a much safer bet for a strarter herd.

For others to see - Terry W - what is your OX TO GORE?? Do you own Dexters which are not free of this gene, do you own any Dexters, and if so could my posting be goring your ox a little bit?? If you don't, what is the reason for becoming involved in a discussion of Dexter genetics - an urge to educate the unwashed masses??

I'll lay my bets along the lines of Genebo's statement "Mating a non-carrier to a non-carrier gives a zero chance of producing a carrier calf. No ifs ands or buts."


----------



## Terry W (Mar 10, 2006)

I am looking for my starters-- I have plenty of experience in genetic 'accidents'occurring even in the "best of the best" in other species.

I have a strong interest in genetic diversity FOR THE SAKE OF BREED PRESERVATION AND GENETIC HEALTH--- AS a breeder of POLLED Barbados Blackbellies,( do not confuse with their "offspring breeds) I HAVE to consider the use of rams with scurs,and ewes that are carry scur genetics simply because if the scurred genetics were totally avoided, there would be NO BBs in this country--

It appears that the Dexters here in the US have a much smaller genetic gene pool than most of you seem to think--
And many people simply refuse to believe that genetics is a very tricky issue to deal with-- 
You won't see the resulting problems that a breeding program with such a narrow focus will produce for many years-- I should hope you do not have the mindset of the local "alpaca expert" here does-- "Well, when that happens, we will be long dead" That Alpaca farm is owned by a pair of Veterinarians that have a small animal practice that benefits from the maladies bought about by narrow breeding programs.

There is areqson, why in Eurpoean countries, the breeding programs of many animal species and breeds are overseen by a specific group-- it is to keep the animals healthy IN THE LONG RUN-- NOT to enable someone to benefit from a fad.

If I find a known "bulldog" gene carrier that HAS THE ATTRIBUTES I WANT, I will use that animal!! I will use it KNOWING there is a potential if bred to an animal from "bulldog free" genetics-- BUT, I have always made breeding decisions based on factors that are not market driven. And more times than I care to admit, I have warned some "influential" breeders that there would be a problem in a certain mating's offspring, and the warning was ignored--only to prove that I was correct. Many times-- I made my remarks based on how the male and female were interacting with each other. See, animals instinctively avoid relatedness if they can--it is our influence that causes such tight programs, and insists on forcing the females to get pregnant, or permit the males to reproduce.

your posting? Heck-- I just see too much ignorance based on the "so and so says" form of education-- and not on real life experience. I attend every health seminar I can, even on animals species I do not intend to own, simply to find out WHAT the genetic issues are... Do YOU?

I lambasted a research paper I used doing my own research-- and when the prof asked why-- I SHOWED him, using SKeletal materials we had on campus WHY the research paper written by a bunch of CORNELL VEterinarians- used testing that was poorly designed from the start. My uncle would have been proud. He never got to read that paper...

Dexters are listed with the ALBC-- are you going to help the overall genetic diversity, or harm it? Are you going to breed functional, multipurpose animals, or animals that are to look pretty in the pasture and in colorfull advertising flyers? Are you breeding for money, or food and work? Do you understand genetic transmission, complete and incomplete expressions, AND dependency enough to work with them?

NOTHING is a simple dominant or recessive-- even Cornell University understands that.....but they published research based on poor methods... and it was even peer reviewed. I guess the cronies support each other-- that is how they make their money.. Now, the paper on kinship recognition-- Wonderfull research-- took into account all the variables that could be controlled- including fostering onto other dams...


----------



## Terry W (Mar 10, 2006)

Nuff SAid--


----------



## Carol K (May 10, 2002)

Terry,
If you choose to breed an animal with a lethal genetic defect, that's your choice.

Carol


----------



## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

I just finished reading Beryl Rutherfords's book MY LOVE AFFAIR WITH THE DEXTER for the second time. She consistently line bred her Dexters to get rid of the Bulldog gene in her herd. The Woodmagic herd is famous throughout the world and Beryl Rutherford was a well resepcted member of the Dexter Council in Great Britian. Her experience in breeding Dexters has certainly been an inspiration to me. In fact I just ordered some Woodmagic Hedgehog III semen from Cindy Williams.


----------



## Terry W (Mar 10, 2006)

SICKLE CELL !!!! If you can't look it up and make the leap-- then you need to get out of genetics--There are reasons why carrier status is so important!!! Find out WHY the "bulldog" gene is naturally present.... What protection did it offer...






genebo said:


> Perhaps the term "bulldog gene" is throwing you. In fact, the chondrodysplasia gene that we're talking about is a dominant gene that causes dwarfism. When a single gene is present, you will always get dwarfing, as evidenced by shorter legs. While this is dominant, it is never fatal. Cattle with this form of dwarfism are simply short.
> 
> When a calf (or fetus) receives a double dose of the gene, it fails to develop properly and either aborts early or is stillborn. There are no cattle alive that have two of these genes. All living Dexters that carry a single copy of the gene are dwarves. It is only by mating two of these carrier cattle that you can pass on two copies of the gene to the fetus. All other mating combinations will pass on either none or one copy of the gene, so can not produce a bulldog calf.
> 
> ...


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

"Dexters are listed with the ALBC-- are you going to help the overall genetic diversity, or harm it? Are you going to breed functional, multipurpose animals, or animals that are to look pretty in the pasture and in colorfull advertising flyers? Are you breeding for money, or food and work? Do you understand genetic transmission, complete and incomplete expressions, AND dependency enough to work with them?"

No I am going to breed a limited number of Dexter cattle to provide my family with excellent beef and a few CHOICE heifers/bull calves to sell so that my family eats for free. With a 9 month gestation period, I can't afford to wait 7 months for my "LATEST GENETIC EXPERIMENT" to prove to be fatal. As for me I will buy my stock from those people who have cared enough to breed only the finest to the finest and the exclusion of the Bulldog gene is one criteria I CHOOSE to define finest. I suspect that the most careful breeders, the ones with the greatest knowledge of their stock are also the same ones who have actively worked to eliminate this lethal gene. You may raise whatever you want - I just will choose to steer clear of your stock. I'll let you work on the genetic experments and IF you should ever happen by chance to raise superior animals I will buy from others who have bought from you AFTER they incorporate your genetics into their herd and also eliminate the lethal gene from the addition. The costs of stock and their values in the future don't give me the luxury of experimentation.


----------



## JulieLou42 (Mar 28, 2005)

This may be somewhat off topic, but the question arose in my mind from the last posting by YuccaFlats...if I have 6 acres of basically orchard grass hayfield, and a family of three who likes to eat beef 4 nights of 7, how many feeder head can that carry to make our beef dinner nights "free" to us? Is it possible?

My 1/2 Jersey bull steer that is 6 mo. old is still gaining over 3# per day! Still nursing, so far as I know. 

It's not fenced off YET! Doing that this year...

Thanks for input on this one...


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

They say that the Dexters are truely a 1 acre = 1 cow type of animal. That means that with my registered California Red sheep (12 head now), and 3 Boer goats, I can just about get by with 2-3 Dexter cows. I currently have a pregnant Beefmaster cow (equal to about 2 Dexter Cows) and her 17 month old calf who is headed to freezer camp soon. This calf is about 1200 lbs and really for just my wife and I, provides too much high quality beef, even though I split him with my neighbor (also a family of 2). The Dexter steer would be much more manageable since the steer would be about half the Beefmasters size. We might even be able to kill and butcher an animal of that size here at home and save additional money for processing.


----------



## ~Tomboy~ (Oct 13, 2005)

Yucca,

Did you make it over to see Mickeys animals?


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

Haven't made it yet. I have been selling Anatolian SHepherd puppies the past weekends (people all want to come when they are off - being retired I can't understand why) and with the wet weather I just didn't have time. Looking at cows is great fun - but not in the rain. Will try again this next weekend if she is available. Might like to come and see yours sometime too.


----------



## ~Tomboy~ (Oct 13, 2005)

You're welcome to come and visit, we're semi retired working Friday & Saturday only. Life is good.

Are you complaining about the rain????? My pastures could use lots more, even though it has delayed putting up new fencing.

e-mail me if you like [email protected]


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

Complain about rain - not in this lifetime - just choosy about what I will do. Selling puppies took priority last weekend. Got to earn the money to buy cows somehow.


----------



## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

JulieLou42 said:


> This may be somewhat off topic, but the question arose in my mind from the last posting by YuccaFlats...if I have 6 acres of basically orchard grass hayfield, and a family of three who likes to eat beef 4 nights of 7, how many feeder head can that carry to make our beef dinner nights "free" to us? Is it possible?
> 
> My 1/2 Jersey bull steer that is 6 mo. old is still gaining over 3# per day! Still nursing, so far as I know.
> 
> ...


6 acres of good orchard grass will feed 6 Dexters during the warm months, if it is fenced for rotational grazing. Orchard grass is dormant during the winter and will not re-grow, so once fall comes, it's done for the year. You'll have to plant some cool season grass to carry you through the winter. In order to stockpile that winter grass, you'll need acreage equal to the summer pasture, so the number of animals will be reduced to 3 on the orchard grass, then the same 3 on the winter grass.

The fencing and planting cost money, so the fact is, there's no free lunch! Some people say that they are able to raise their own beef for a dollar a pound, but others say it costs them two dollars.

Genebo
Paradise Farm


----------



## JulieLou42 (Mar 28, 2005)

Thanks, Genebo...

This orchard grass goes dormant, but returns every year. There were still "live" clumps of it a few weeks ago. One of the local ranchers who did custom cutting for me said it was orchard.

The local ag agent thought 4 cow-calf pairs would work, if I just perimeter fenced it off...not sure I'd want that many cows. All the cow I want more than I already have is a smaller one to milk. Even tho' she's 3/4 Guernsey, Ginger got to be HUGE at near 1500#. I guess it's the 1/4 Angus she has?

There's a grazing conference on the 25th of the month I can get to, put on by the local soil and conservation district...$20...that might have some good info for me...speakers from U.I. and W.S.U. among others...all day affair.


----------



## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

By all means, go to the grazing conference. Join the grazing council. You'll get more information than you can handle.

Milk isn't free. It costs grass, or hay, or something. The more milk your cow produces, the more feed she eats. That's why a Dexter fits the bill for so many people. A moderate amount of milk for a lot less feed. Especially when you don't have a need for all that milk you get from a big dairy cow.

The grazing council will have charts for you to estimate how much extra feed a milk cow will require.

Genebo
Paradise Farm
Church Road, VA


----------



## JulieLou42 (Mar 28, 2005)

But I'm already on info-OVERLOAD!!! Got so much going on in my head, or on paper! I'm near to exasperation!


----------



## Sher (May 10, 2002)

Terry W. I just wanted to thank you for the sickle cell info. I have been reading up on it since you posted that. It is an eye opener..and I would like to think that everyone would read it and at least give thought to the bulldog gene from that perspective. I would love to read about the bulldog gene and what it might be countering..do you have a place for me to go read that?

We run a carrier bull. We have long and short leggers. We also know what a bulldog is first hand. It's not that we don't understand the heartbreak and economics of a dead calf...we do.

We have just always thought that everything is for a reason. We have often wondered if getting rid of the bulldog gene in Dexters would lead to losing Dexter traits along with it. Most people assure us that is not so..but I don't know if anyone can say that with a 100% guarantee.

When I read about the sickle cell...I said yes..that is exactly what we are concerned about! So thanks again Terry W. And I really enjoyed doing that bit of research.


----------



## ~Tomboy~ (Oct 13, 2005)

Here's the difference:

Sickle cell: in Homozygous form IS RECESSIVE, viable

Chondrodysplasia: in Homozygous form IS DOMINATE, non viable (lethal).


----------



## ~Tomboy~ (Oct 13, 2005)

Sher, How are things going?

Not sure if you have a copy of the 2003 ADCA membership directory or not. On page 25 is " A DNA TEST, FOR CHONDRODYSPLASIA IN DEXTER CATTLE." The paper is reprinted from "Presenters Papers for the Second World Dexter Congress, Australia." 

J.A.L Cavanagh-Author
Reprogen, The University of Sydney, Australia


----------



## ~Tomboy~ (Oct 13, 2005)

Here is a link to the dex-info site, it has several areas that you also can link off of in regards to Chrondrodysplasia.

http://www.dex-info.net/dexdir4.htm


----------



## Sher (May 10, 2002)

Hi Barb! I'm doing great.

Thanks for the chondro stuff. We've gone down this road many a time.

I really think people are missing the link/point Terry was making.

So when I am reading about that I am thinking.....bulldog gene...what was its original use..what does it combat that we don't know about yet. 

edited because I mispoke...funeral weeks..they can be long.


----------



## Terry W (Mar 10, 2006)

Very few "flaws" exist in Nature without a purpose--
Sickle carrier-- carrier status PROTECTS the carrier froma a lethal disorder, while affected wil kill the carrier-- meanwhile, being clear will cause the malaria to kill the 'host' in MUCH HIGHER NUMBERS than being affected will.

And yeah, I read that "Chondro stuff"-- and noticed the research behind it--- can anyone say "agribusiness"?

Sure, I may buy a tested clear sire, or cow-- But I will not let an otherwise superior animal's "status" make the decision to not even consider it in the program.




Sher said:


> Hi Barb! I'm doing great.
> 
> Thanks for the chondro stuff. We've gone down this road many a time.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sher (May 10, 2002)

Thanks for correcting me on the kill/protect statement Barb and Terry. Funeral weeks whack me out.

This does peak my interst...at some point..I think they will find something that this gene is tied into ... I mean I am such a novice..but I can't help but wonder how many genes are left to discover on these Dexters. They are so very unique. I understand why people don't want the carriers...that being said..I doubt I'll see the day when we don't have any of them. I just think they are Dexters too..lol..kinda like me..gotta take the good with the bad.


----------



## Terry W (Mar 10, 2006)

yeah-- those polygenic issues that many people, including the researchers, fail to find out-- My sheep are included in a new research project looking for ANOTHER marker that would further explain their genetic resistance to Scrapies-- the sheep equivalent to "Mad Cow" The genome is FULL of redundancy-- and there has to be a reason for it-- though I doubt it is to permit the type of stuff that happens when a Klingon gets hurt!!! ( oops, showing the true origins of my interest in all sciences-- old science fiction becoming science fact!)


----------



## ~Tomboy~ (Oct 13, 2005)

[QUOTE: And yeah, I read that "Chondro stuff"-- and noticed the research behind it--- can anyone say "agribusiness"?.[/QUOTE]

Terry W. 
If you consider the relativley small number of Dexter cattle there are, I doubt that The University of Sydney, Australia would have taken up a research project like this if it was just for the money.


----------



## Jenn (Nov 9, 2004)

Are the non bulldog gene Dexters small/short?

Chondro is the same as dwarfism in humans sounds like. The gene is dominant for shortness, but recessive for lethality at/before birth. Does that make sense? SIckle cell also is recessive for sickle cell disease but dominant (for our purposes) for protection from malaria.

Anyway someone who wants cute short dexters will want the bulldog gene if that gives a body shape which can't be achieved otherwise. And those who want to avoid 25% risk lost pregnancy will not breed bulldog gene to bulldog gene cattle- easily accomplished by no bulldog in either all your females or all your semen source.

When we look at humans it is not a controlled gene program, and many dwarves marry other dwarves. THese folk have to decide, if choosing to have a baby together, how they will manage the risk of a lost fetus and if they want to use technology to know earlier, possibly so the pregnancy can be aborted earlier for less emotional suffering from the loss of a more advanced fetus.


----------



## Jenn (Nov 9, 2004)

genebo said:


> Barbara,
> 
> Thank you, but I made a mistake when I originally posted. I had the odds wrong for non-carrier to carrier. I edited the post to correct it.
> 
> ...


Genebo dunno if carrier semen is indeed less potent, but genetics is probability. Every time you have a pregnancy it is 50% chance, and the results of the last 12 times don't affect the outcome of the next one. In other words just because the probabilty of a ROyal FLush is 1/649740 does not mean that if you play 649740 hands of poker you are guaranteed to get a royal flush. And tossing 11 heads in a row on a fair coin is unlikely, but so long as the coin (and toss) is fair you still have a 1/2 chance on the twelfth try of another head.

Anyway the difference between your results 7/11 instead of 1/2 is quite random and quite probable. In fact getting exactly 5 or 6 normal, exactly every other birth, would be QUITE improbable. Do let us know though if the ratio is different from 50-50 when you've had a few thousand births! Might be a paper in it.


----------



## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

Jenn,

Actually, quite a few people have reported the same thing. For some unknown reason, the percentage of bulldog calves in matings between two carrier parents is lower than expected. The number of carrier calves resulting from matings between a carrier and a non-carrier are also lower than expected.

The reasons that I gave were my own guesses at the probable cause. I'd really like to see someone knowledgeable who is in a position to do so, investigate the causes. Maybe they could include my suppositions in their studies.

It is my thought that the conditions that cause a calf with two Chondro genes to either abort or be born dead probably extend back to the origins of the fetus: the semen and the egg. If they were less viable than non-chondro cells, then that could explain why there are fewer incidences than expected.

This ocurrence, if it happened, would be masked by, and lost in, all of the other reasons for a pregnancy to fail to take place. My thought is that if this is actually happening, it would go unnoticed, until a tally of the resulting calves was taken. Then you'd begin to say, "Hmmm, I wonder why?"

Here's some numbers I made up to fit the possibilities, when 25% bulldog calves are expected from an attempt to fertilize a carrier cow by a carrier bull:

5% fail to conceive or implant. 3 weeks lost. This goes unnoticed.
5% abort in the first trimester. 3 months lost. This would go largely unnoticed.
5% abort after the first trimester. 4-8 months lost. This would most likely be noticed and reported.
10% born dead. 9 months lost. This would definitely be reported as a bulldog calf.

Total = 25%

Of course the numbers aren't accurate, but you get the idea. 25% are expected, but a lesser number are reported. Don't you think this could be the reason?

Where are the experts?

Genebo
Paradise Farm
Church Road, VA


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

Why would one choose to play around with a lethal gene when one can avoid it is beyond my comprehension. Having the shortest Dexter must be like some badge of honor. Having a healthy (and I also mean genetically healthy) herd seems so much more cost effective. 

Maybe a Dexter breeder can enlighten me on the desireability of having the smallest Dexter. Does this in anyway affect the desireability of this animal??

What I suspect is that very small Dexters are selliing for LOTS of money, and the people who are chancing them are way more interested in $$$$$$ than health.

As I have said before - I will be VERY CAREFUL who I would buy a Dexter from. For my purposes a Dexter bred with lowline Angus semen might just be the safest thing I could do for "small" beefy cattle as lowline Angus prices are way higher than Dexters. 

I have figured out I don't want to participate in the politics of the Dexter Association at this time. At this time the registration paperwork doesn't allow for any notation of the presence or absense of the Bulldog gene. That tells me that some group is trying to hide the fact that their animals have the gene.


----------



## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

The Dexter cattle associations are actually doing just the opposite of trying to hide it. They are both making a place for recording the results of a chondro test on the registration.

The facts surrounding the chondro gene were not discovered until just 4 years ago. Prior to that, there was a lot of misinformation floating around. Now that the gene has been discovered, a DNA test has been developed to reveal the presence or absence of that gene. Prior to 2003, there was no reliable test.

It takes time for the information to get around, and even longer for it to appear in policies and regulations of the associations. You shouldn't want it any other way. If they jumped up and made a regulation that covered every new piece of information, we'd have chaos. You see, sometimes new discoveries are wrong. Look at the butter vs. margarine controversy.

There are many reasons for choosing to breed more dwarf Dexter cattle. My own have to do with the temperament and unique beauty of the dwarf. Having a dwarf carrier calf is not fatal. That's misplaced and old school, from back when they didn't know what caused the bulldog calves. They assumed you could get one at any time. Now we know that's not the case. You can only get one if you breed two dwarves together. It's the only way. And even then, your chances of getting a bulldog calf are exactly equal to your getting a carrier-free calf.

With knowledge came the power to control this. Now we can have our dwarf calves without the danger of a bulldog. We simply breed a carrier to a non-carrier.

Now we can continue to preserve the characteristics of the long-time Dexter breed without having to resort to eliminating a part of the breed that many find most appealing.

Long live the little Dexters.

Genebo
Paradise Farm
Church Road, VA


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

"The Dexter cattle associations are actually doing just the opposite of trying to hide it. They are both making a place for recording the results of a chondro test on the registration."

Then TOMBOY you need to see the above, because you indicated just the opposite to me.


----------



## ~Tomboy~ (Oct 13, 2005)

Hi Yucca,

The general membership was able to vote on this one. I personally spent many hours doing different breed research to find out how other associations handle genetic defects. Believe me it was not easy and I felt like I was fighting some every step of the way. But....................

"It was voted on and passed at the AGM to add test results to the registration papers - on a STRICTLY VOLUNTARY BASIS". 

To this day, I am still waiting....The vote was taken in June 06. 

It is still up to the breeder as to IF they want to test or not, and than IF they want those results known.


----------



## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

Don't hassle the associations about making DNA testing mandatory. People don't want anything to be mandatory! Look at NAIS.

Besides, it costs money, which either raises the price or lowers the profit.

Another reason for not making it mandatory is that the DNA test is licensed to very few labs to perform. I don't think there's a single lab in this country licensed to do it. Some people have been waiting since the middle of last year for DNA test results.

I like going through life with the very least interference from outside sources. I don't want anyone else making decisions for me or telling me what I must do. So when you say "Mandatory" to me, it raises my hackles. Even when it's about something I would normally do. I just want the freedom to make up my own mind.

If you don't want dwarf Dexters, then simply follow one simple rule: only breed non-carriers to non-carriers. 100% guaranteed you'll never have a dwarf. This should be very easy, as the vast majority of all Dexters are non-carriers.

Beyond that, you should find something better to do than trying to tell everybody else which type to like the best.

I like all the Dexters. They're beautiful, gentle creatures. Can I help it if I like the short ones the best? They are the prettiest, you know.

Genebo
Paradise Farm
Church Road, VA


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

"People don't want anything to be mandatory! Look at NAIS.
Besides, it costs money, which either raises the price or lowers the profit." 

...MY POINT EXACTLY!!

Who said anything about it being mandatory - just it being approved to have an official place on the registration paperwork for the test results to go. The market will take care of inducing people to test - IF people don't care about the test then things will be the same as before. If they do care and ask you to explain the Bulldog gene then......

How will you answer the questions from potential buyers when the block for test results is BLANK?? 

Their question will be - WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE??" 

And your answer will be??????? 

Inquiring minds want to know .


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

"I don't think there's a single lab in this country licensed to do it. Some people have been waiting since the middle of last year for DNA test results."

OH CONTRAR - it seems that Tomboy has no trouble getting her animals tested and is hard at work producing a Bulldog gene free herd.

"This should be very easy, as the vast majority of all Dexters are non-carriers."

Methinks you have got your facts all screwed up. I suspect even in Tomboys herd (and she is hard at work eliminating the gene) the majority of her animals are carriers.


----------



## Sher (May 10, 2002)

I'm kinda like genebo, in that I don't like "mandatory" things. We may be out here by ourselves..but we personally don't have a problem with telling someone if one of our animals is a carrier. Gee..if ya got long legged(non-carrier) girls and I want to sell a carrier bull..no bulldogs. And visa versa.

Our herd is about 50/50. Our bull is/was a carrier. Great crop of calves out of him. And yes..we have had a bulldog calf. That's the way it goes. Ya pray ya don't get any..but it can happen.

When we sell we try to be as honest as we can be..anyone can walk on this place and look at the parents. Can we be 100% sure without testing? No..ergo three are "waiting" on the lab/s. And genebo is certainly right about the labs! 

I'm gonna be real honest here..I could give a hoot less who does or does not like short legged carriers. I love em and I'm sure not ashamed of them. We don't "hide" em out in the back somewhere. We don't "shun" from talking about them. We don't "dupe" people into buying them. 

So we have had two losses from bulldogs. Know what? Some people have had losses from accidents and some from the weather being too cold. We have not. So how do you want to marginalize one loss from another? 

It's not just anyone that we sell our Dexters to. Carrier or non carrier.


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

Only time will tell where things go and how well animals sell. I can guarantee that there will be more questions asked during sales once the block for the test results is included on the registration papers. In fact this whole thread I am sure has educated people as to what to look for in Dexters and has probably rained on a number of peoples parade. Registered Dexters that have the indication on them that the animals being purchased are free of the bulldog gene will command a premium as I suspect they do today.

Too many of us only want a small number of animals. I for one don't desire to raise them as PETS or pasture ornaments. Everything I raise contributes in one way or another. I mainly raise cattle for the purpose of feeding my family and selling one or two calves to pay for feed. To have a cow abort a bulldog calf has just WASTED 7 months of my time and gets me no closer to my objective than not having had the cow at all. In fact it is a significant loss to me as I have had to feed a non-producing animal for the 7 plus months.

Therefore I have a limited number of choices to make. One is that I can own only non-carrier cows and invest only in semen from a known non-carrier bull or just as likely I can invest in Lowline Angus semen and know positively that I will never get a bulldog calf, eventually ending up with more of a lowline Angus type animal or a Dexter that is more beef type than the ones I have seen. Since Lowline Red Angus semen is available I can even choose the colors I want for my animals.

I don't raise many animals because they are CUTE.


----------



## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

The associations recommend that you keep only a non-carrier bull, and then you can have either type of cow and you'll never, ever have a bulldog calf. I do it the opposite way. I keep all non-carrier cows and one carrier bull. I'll never have a bulldog calf that way, either.

My little bull is the hit of my farm. People drive from a long way off to see him. Then they tell others, who come. My local newspaper did an article on him.

I have a lady on my waiting list for a short legged carrier bull. She used one of my long legged non carrier bulls to freshen her cows this year, but didn't want to keep him. She insists on a short legged bull. And yes, she knows all about the chondro that causes dwarfism. She owned Dexters many years ago. Her bull then was short legged and she really liked him. Then she met Noelly when he was here at my farm. She absolutely loved him! Now she thinks that my Brenn is gorgeous. She wants one just like him or Noelly.

I'm very fortunate to have had those two truly great bulls here. They've been the centerpiece of my farm and whenever I meet people, they call me the guy with the little bull. I suppose I could go with a long legged bull, that looked like a normal bull. It would probably make somebody, somewhere, very happy if I did.

The problem is, I'm old enough and independent enough to have what I want, without giving a hoot about somebody else's wants and wishes. There are still enough people who like the same things as I do, so that I can find a good home for all my calves. When I can't find homes for them all, then I'll cut down on the number of cows, so I won't make as many calves. Brenn and I will still be happy.

You can go ahead and do whatever you want. I won't stand in your way. I'll defend your right to do it. I feel sorry for the bulldog calf that wastes months of your time, but now that you know what causes them, I'm sure you won't have any more.

I'll tel you a funny story about my bull. The man who spreads fertilizer on my fields had his truck in the pasture and was starting to spread. He saw the bull, but looked back to check his adjustment on the fertilizer. When he looked up, he had almost run over the bull. He told me, "I thought he was farther away than that!"

He went back to the feed store and told everybody there. I was flooded with visitors for months afterward.

So you think I should give my little bull up? Heck, he's my best salesman.

Are you sure you can't find room for just one CUTE little bull. How about if he carries some of the best milking genes and throws beefy, big-butted calves that look just like him.

It's a good thing I don't know how to post pictures on here. I'll bet I could make even you say, "Aaawww!"

Genebo
Paradise Farm
Church Road, VA


----------



## ~Tomboy~ (Oct 13, 2005)

Yucca, 

My animals are all Non-Carriers, in one of your posts I think you accidentally said they were carriers.

Testing for the gene has been in limbo while the ADCA changes labs. Luckily most of my animals were tested before they changed labs, or are non-carriers by parentage (parents who have been tested). 

I believe an individual should be able to breed whatever they want, to whatever they want. Some disagree and that's ok.

My personal opinion on why testing results should be on the registration is so that a potential buyer can make his own informed decisions. If the area is left blank, it is up to the buyer or breeder to inform the individual. Does this always happen? No...but it's a good start.

Genebo, Sher, Carol, myself do not hide our preferences, we try and inform, even though our breeding practices might be a little different.


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

Tomboy - please explain again the definition of carrier and non-carrier. I assume a carrier is any animal that is non-homozygous for no bulldog gene. I do understand the homozygous no bulldog gene animal (such as your bull).

I am aware that genebo, sher, and yourself are honest about the Bulldog gene. Its not you all I would be worried about - others ??????????????? I think not all are as honest.


----------



## Carol K (May 10, 2002)

Hi Yucca,
the terminology sometimes gets confusing.
if you have had an animal tested for Chondro, the certificate reads either 
Homozygous Normal - Non carrier of the gene
or
Heterozygous for Chondrodysplasia- a carrier of the Chondro gene.

Hope that helps,

Carol


----------



## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

Too much terminology. As a buyer or breeder I just want to know if the animal has the gene or not.

I guess the safest is to ASSUME CARRIER unless the tests say otherwise or both parents say non-carrier.


----------

