# Releasing "wild" horses into the wild.



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

I just watched a video of a group of "wild" horses being released into the wild. I don't understand why you would intentionally release a feral invasive species into the wild. 

There are domestic horses in the US and there are feral horses in the US, there are no wild horses in the United States.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Who is releasing horses into the wild ?
Do you answer your question stupid people who like horses


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

But they don’t understand horses.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

what's the difference between a wild horse and a ferrel horse ?
If there are no wild horses, how can they release wild horses ?
this is going to end up like the discussion of family farms
I think,,..
It seems to me that I recently saw on TV a feature of one wild horse herd. I am thinking Wild Kingdom ??


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Are you talking about the Hardtrigger horses? The wild horses that were gathered up when the fires were happening and are now being released back on to the land they were on before.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

https://www.visitnc.com/story/MVCU/see-wild-horses-roam-free-on-the-north-carolina-coast


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> what's the difference between a wild horse and a ferrel horse ?
> If there are no wild horses, how can they release wild horses ?
> this is going to end up like the discussion of family farms
> I think,,..
> It seems to me that I recently saw on TV a feature of one wild horse herd. I am thinking Wild Kingdom ??


A wild animal is naturally occurring native to its location. A feral animal is a domestic animal or a descendant of a domestic animal functioning as a wild invasive species.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I don’t understand it seems a lot safer just to kill them all. 
About the only thing worse than a feral horse is a feral hog


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Feral humans on the Internet come to mind.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol would anybody advocate turning them loose if they were a Gross bug ? Like a emerald ash borer?
Well it’s kinda a cute bug.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

were there horses in America before the Spaniards arrived? I thought the Spaniards introduced horses.?
wouldn't that make any free roaming horse a feral ?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Feral and living wild.


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## reubenT (Feb 28, 2012)

Depends on where your world view starts at. Native americans could be considered an invasive species at one time. Europeans invaded their land and took control. So what actually is native species? How long does a given species have to live in an area before it becomes a native species? There are horses in the fossil record of America, they got extinguished for some reason and were reintroduced by the Spaniards. The Indian grabbed them and quickly became highly skilled horseman. I would say they have as much right to the land as the deer antelope and elk. The ranchers get fed up with them eating the grass they want their cows to eat. They sell cows for cash, not much of a market for the horses since we don't eat them here.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

For 400 years the "Native" horses have been reverse culled.

The good horses were captured and used. Poor quality horses were turned loose onto the open range. Every year, every generation. Mother nature does a haphazard culling.

Ranchers pay rent to the government to graze cattle. Horses compete with the cattle for vegetation. Each year, cattle are brought off the range to be fattened and eaten. Horses just multiply.

There are 82,000 wild and mostly unwanted horses in the US. Is that too many? How many are you willing to buy hay for? How much will you give a ranchers to compensate him for lost pasture?

Don't be a " I want endless numbers of wild horses, but I want others to pay to support them".


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## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

reubenT said:


> ...There are horses in the fossil record of America, they got extinguished for some reason and were reintroduced by the Spaniards. ...


Yeah. My understanding has always been that horses evolved in North America and existed here until the disaster that destroyed most everything. They went extinct here roughly 10-12k years ago but at one point made up a very significant portion of the larger prey animals in the states. What that disaster was is an interesting topic... 

I guess you could make an argument that if you're going to use the above reasoning we should then also re-introduce predatory species of cats for the plains. The american loin and cheetah would certainly liven up the central states a bit


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

dyrne said:


> Yeah. My understanding has always been that horses evolved in North America and existed here until the disaster that destroyed most everything. They went extinct here roughly 10-12k years ago but at one point made up a very significant portion of the larger prey animals in the states. What that disaster was is an interesting topic...
> 
> I guess you could make an argument that if you're going to use the above reasoning we should then also re-introduce predatory species of cats for the plains. The american loin and cheetah would certainly liven up the central states a bit


Grizzly bears too. They are really more of a plains species.
Except that reintroducing cougars, grizzlies, etc is quite different from the horses that are called wild now. Very few have bloodlines from the Spaniards. Most are from horses that ranchers turned out to run with what horses were there. Even the Spanish horses were very different from what would have existed originally here. You’d have to go to Mongolia to get some of the last true wild horses that are closest to prehistoric equines.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> For 400 years the "Native" horses have been reverse culled.
> 
> The good horses were captured and used. Poor quality horses were turned loose onto the open range. Every year, every generation. Mother nature does a haphazard culling.
> 
> ...


Lol why should we give a rancher anything to pay for “ lost pasture”?
It’s not his if he is paying rent .


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol why should we give a rancher anything to pay for “ lost pasture”?
> It’s not his if he is paying rent .


The citizens of this country are paying to feed these wild horses. The value of rented range is reduced when over run with horses. I contend that if I had a lease/rent on federal land and it became over run with horses, I'd want my "landlord" to fix the problem or adjust my rent.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Fire is way less destructive. People used to round them up and ship them to a slaughterhouse. Until the abomination called the wild horse and burro act, urged by crayon pictures from schoolchildren in direct conflict with biologist recommendations.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> The citizens of this country are paying to feed these wild horses. The value of rented range is reduced when over run with horses. I contend that if I had a lease/rent on federal land and it became over run with horses, I'd want my "landlord" to fix the problem or adjust my rent.


 The deer Moose elk antelope and rabbits are all eating range land fodder. 
Should we hunt them down so that we can have more beef?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> The deer Moose elk antelope and rabbits are all eating range land fodder.
> Should we hunt them down so that we can have more beef?


These animals are managed by government agencies through hunting permits. Not so with the growing horse population. Does the Department of Interior spend $43,000,000 feeding Moose, Elk, Antelope, like they do each year feeding horses. Does it matter that half of these "wild" horses range privately owned land?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

haypoint said:


> These animals are managed by government agencies through hunting permits. Not so with the growing horse population. Does the Department of Interior spend $43,000,000 feeding Moose, Elk, Antelope, like they do each year feeding horses. Does it matter that half of these "wild" horses range privately owned land?


Yes, they do. Welcome to Wyoming where we have many elk refuges and we we feed them every winter.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Wild horses are managed through roundups and adoption.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> These animals are managed by government agencies through hunting permits. Not so with the growing horse population. Does the Department of Interior spend $43,000,000 feeding Moose, Elk, Antelope, like they do each year feeding horses. Does it matter that half of these "wild" horses range privately owned land?


$ 43,000,000?
Do we really spend that much ?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

https://www.doi.gov/ocl/wild-horses-and-burros

"With more than 112,000 horses and burros in the BLM’s care – both on-range and off-range – the agency is redoubling its efforts to control program costs. The total lifetime cost of caring for an animal that is removed from the range is substantial. Costs for lifetime care in a corral approach $50,000 per horse. With over 45,000 horses and burros already in off-range corrals and pastures, this means that without new opportunities for placing these animals with responsible owners, the BLM will spend more than $1 billion to care for and feed these animals which have already been removed from the range over the remainder of their lives.

The BLM currently spends two-thirds of its Wild Horse and Burro program budget ($49 million, or 65 percent of $77 million in FY 2015) to care for animals removed from the range. Resources are inadequate to care for additional animals in holding facilities."
" The BLM is proposing to acquire more off-range pastures through contracts with private parties in order to reduce numbers in higher-cost corrals."
Renting Midwest pastures does not seem reasonable as a long term solution.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Dog food


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Well HD I would’ve said that number was insane and now that you have proved it is accurate I think it’s even more insane!
I think the biggest part of this problem is the insistence on adoptions I have noticed that almost any animal that becomes involved in adoption Costs far more than it’s worth for the adoption


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

painterswife said:


> Yes, they do. Welcome to Wyoming where we have many elk refuges and we we feed them every winter.


Which is ridiculous and ultimately, terrible for elk.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Feral humans on the Internet come to mind.


lmao i choked on my coffee,thank you for that


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Open the equine slaughter facilities again, and sell the meat in markets like any other protein. Problem solved.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Elk are fed by state wildlife agencies, on the behalf of hunters that fund those agencies. Horses are fed by the federal government, which means we all pay for it, and don't get any yummy horse meat in our freezer. Horses don't belong there, the plant and animal species of the western range lands have adapted for thousands of years to a world without horses. The adoption hijinks are a very poor attempt at any kind of real management. The real management comes from culls, in which they shoot large numbers of horses with marksmen in helicopters, and those are carried out far too infrequently due to public outcry. People used to provide the service for free, with no government funding. When horse market price made it profitable, and enterprising individuals needed cash, they rounded up horses and took them to market. The problem was, people that lived thousands of miles away didn't like the idea of that, so now it can't happen, thanks to federal laws. We are protecting nuisance animals, invasive and non-native, despite paying biologists to tell us that we shouldn't with scientific authority. Because people that lived thousands of miles from wild horses liked the idea of wild horses running free in a far away place where they were wreaking havoc on a fragile ecosystem already heavily impacted by the people who live there trying to eke out a meager living.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I think barn builder nailed it particularly the motivations. 
This is a big country with a lot of space and a lot of people each entitled to some of their own little things .
I really wouldn’t object to a couple of herds of free roaming horses in the right places perhaps 100 animals total .
And I’m sure that we can tolerate more but Shurely 1000 animals would be enough to let the Manhattan Cowboys feed their imaginations. 
A small team could round of each heard each year and spay all but a very few of the best animals enough to maintain the herd at the agreed level


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Artificially keeping the elk hereds larger by feeding to make the hunters happy is also a problem. It promotes disease.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> The deer Moose elk antelope and rabbits are all eating *range land* fodder.


No, they really aren't.

Deer and Moose live in woodlands.
Their populations are controlled through hunting.

Horses don't belong and are out of control.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> No, they really aren't.
> 
> Deer and Moose live in woodlands.
> Their populations are controlled through hunting.
> ...


 You really have no clue what you’re talking about right? you’re going to have to Google this one again


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> You really have no clue what you’re talking about right?


I know enough to know what you said isn't realistic.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Does the Department of Interior spend $43,000,000 feeding Moose, Elk, Antelope, like they do each year feeding horses.





painterswife said:


> Yes, they do.


Can you provide links to support that?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Can you provide links to support that?


Perfect example of what happens when you don't quote the compete post.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

barnbilder said:


> Elk are fed by state wildlife agencies, on the behalf of hunters that fund those agencies. Horses are fed by the federal government, which means we all pay for it, and don't get any yummy horse meat in our freezer. Horses don't belong there, the plant and animal species of the western range lands have adapted for thousands of years to a world without horses. The adoption hijinks are a very poor attempt at any kind of real management. The real management comes from culls, in which they shoot large numbers of horses with marksmen in helicopters, and those are carried out far too infrequently due to public outcry. People used to provide the service for free, with no government funding. When horse market price made it profitable, and enterprising individuals needed cash, they rounded up horses and took them to market. The problem was, people that lived thousands of miles away didn't like the idea of that, so now it can't happen, thanks to federal laws. We are protecting nuisance animals, invasive and non-native, despite paying biologists to tell us that we shouldn't with scientific authority. Because people that lived thousands of miles from wild horses liked the idea of wild horses running free in a far away place where they were wreaking havoc on a fragile ecosystem already heavily impacted by the people who live there trying to eke out a meager living.


National Elk Refuge


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Perfect example of what happens when you don't quote the compete post.


He asked about the amount of money spent, not whether or not they fed some animals.
"Yes they do" isn't a coherent answer to anything else in the post.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Wild horses are managed through roundups and adoption.


Not well enough to control the numbers nor to justify the costs.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Isn’t that just your opinion? If it’s a fact how about a link?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I know enough to know what you said isn't realistic.


 Once again you would be wrong and spreading that misinformation


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

The National Elk Refuge is indeed a federal government maintained site, it supports much of the Elk herd from Yellowstone. Their traditional winter grounds have been largely taken up by yuppie yards. Much of the revenue that runs the park comes from the harvest of elk antler sheds, collected by the Boy Scouts who share some of the revenue generated. The Rocky Mountain Elk foundation (made up of hunters primarily) helps with funding this and other elk feeding projects, including habitat improvement. The refuge also allows some hunting, with the proceeds from lotteries and licenses helping defray costs. Elk (being hunted) are a driving part of the economy in some localities, it's elk season that many hotels, service stations and diners depend on, this going beyond the guides and outfitters directly involved.

Comparing the supplemental feeding of a native migratory species that has been displaced by human encroachment, and a non-native, destructive feral species is disingenuous at best. Horses are highly destructive to the environment, probably why they died out in all but a few places in the world. Their usefulness before the advent of the internal combustion engine is the main reason they survived in their present domesticated form, and it has been their main mode of colonization.

The problem with horses in the American west, is that unlike the other animals that evolved there, they don't migrate to mitigate dangerous impacts on the sensitive rangelands, at least not to any great extent as the animals that are programmed to do so. Like resident geese, their internal migration system is broken by humans, and they overpopulate and negatively impact their environments. There is only one solution that works for resident Canada Geese, and it is the same solution that would work for feral horses. Of course, the biologists that spoke out against the horrible impacts of the wild horse and burro act brought all this up, but that wasn't good enough for people that lived thousands of miles from the situation that took up the support of a destructive non native feral species of invasive animal.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_and_Free-Roaming_Horses_and_Burros_Act_of_1971
This will bring you up to speed. Yeah. Feral invasives. Most formerly ranch horses, not "wild" mustangs. General consensus among scientists, they are bad, letter writing campaign from schoolchildren, then Nixon signed into law some of the worst legislation in the history of the country.


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## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

I'm curious what the American Prairie reserve's stance is on horses. Their goal is 3.5 Million acres or so... Some idle googling didn't turn anything up


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Once again you would be wrong and spreading that misinformation


You say that a lot but never offer any proof.

Horses don't typically roam in deer and moose habitat, no matter how badly you want to disagree.

A simple google search for range maps can show you that.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

That’s typical of you to change the terms of the statement and then declare yourself a winner.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Worse yet to say that horses don’t Roam in deer habitat is one of the silliest things I think I’ve ever heard.
Deer habitat is almost everyplace ,literally from the waters edge on the beaches of the Pacific to the waters edge on the beaches of the Atlantic.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Worse yet to say that horses don’t Roam in deer habitat is one of the silliest things I think I’ve ever heard.
> Deer habitat is almost everyplace ,literally from the waters edge on the beaches of the Pacific to the waters edge on the beaches of the Atlantic.


Deer habitat is typically forest, and horses generally prefer grasslands. It is their respective evolutionary niche. Sure they overlap in places. There probably were many more pockets of suitable deer habitat in the overlapping areas before they became a horse desert.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Deer seem to be the most adaptable of species.
I have seen them feeding on seaweed at oceans edge and mixed in with the goats near mountaintops. 
I think they utilize forests for cover and small openings but they really seem to do best in the open soybean fields of the Midwest. 
Moose on the other hand seem to prefer the open of bogs and the brushy areas of recent burns
There doesn’t seem to be much in the deer family that utilizes the deep mature forests, there just isn’t much in there. 
But just like deer are found in the desert I’m sure they are in there.
As for typical or best deer range ? I’d hate to hesitate a guess but I’ll try. 
Perhaps that open Grown over fields with 10% tree coverage typical of Midwest abandoned farms and suburbs ?


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## Pyrpup2016 (Sep 11, 2016)

I personally know of 2 "feed lots" for horses that have been taken off the western ranges due to overpopulation. One in CO, and one in the Dakotas. Miles and miles of pens where thousands of horses are fed and vetted for their lives . I'm not exaterating - this is going on right now. There simply aren't enough people who want to adopt such horses, and though they aren't allowed to reproduce in captivity, they are there for their natural life . For those against horse slaughter, is this a better life for those horses? Not to mention the expense of the program. I'm an old cowgirl, and truly value good horses, but these "wild horses" simply don't qualify. Something different needs to be implemented to save the range, and treat these horses differently.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You say that a lot but never offer any proof.
> 
> Horses don't typically roam in deer and moose habitat, no matter how badly you want to disagree.
> 
> A simple google search for range maps can show you that.


In my country, horses that live with deer and moose, become bear and cougar snacks. Nobody will ever own up to it but there's a reason that Shetland ponies are often referred to as bear bait.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wr said:


> In my country, horses that live with deer and moose, become bear and cougar snacks. Nobody will ever own up to it but there's a reason that Shetland ponies are often referred to as bear bait.


Most of the feral horses in this country are on federally owned land that barely supports them, let alone large populations of deer or moose. People don't tolerate them on private land.

We do have some herds on the Outer Banks that are leftovers from ancient Spanish shipwrecks. They even have some unique genetic traits.

They used to have roundups and give the extras away, but they stopped doing that several years ago.

http://www.ncwildhorses.com/


> The wild horses of North Carolina's Outer Banks once roamed freely along the entire length of this coastal barrier island chain, isolated from man for the most part for nearly 400 years. Descended from Spanish mustangs brought by the earliest European explorers to the Carolina coast, they have tenaciously survived this harsh and unforgiving environment.
> By the early 20th century the popularity of this rugged landscape as a vacation mecca had taken over much of the prime Outer Banks land. Eventually the National Park Service took control over most of what was left, pushing the wild mustangs into more isolated havens. Now there are but three groups of these intriguing horses left. There is a fourth group which started from Shackleford and Ocracoke stock. Though now considered "feral" because of mixed bloodlines with some thoroughbred stock, they still clearly carry the tenacious traits of their wild Spanish Mustang roots.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> That’s typical of you to change the terms of the statement and then declare yourself a winner.


It's typical of you to disagree but never show any evidence. 



AmericanStand said:


> Worse yet to say that horses don’t Roam in deer habitat is one of the silliest things I think I’ve ever heard.
> Deer habitat is almost everyplace ,literally from the waters edge on the beaches of the Pacific to the waters edge on the beaches of the Atlantic.


Show your proof then.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

wr said:


> In my country, horses that live with deer and moose, become bear and cougar snacks. Nobody will ever own up to it but there's a reason that Shetland ponies are often referred to as bear bait.


All Righty then!
Problem solved!


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Pyrpup2016 said:


> I personally know of 2 "feed lots" for horses that have been taken off the western ranges due to overpopulation. One in CO, and one in the Dakotas. Miles and miles of pens where thousands of horses are fed and vetted for their lives . I'm not exaterating - this is going on right now. There simply aren't enough people who want to adopt such horses, and though they aren't allowed to reproduce in captivity, they are there for their natural life . For those against horse slaughter, is this a better life for those horses? Not to mention the expense of the program. I'm an old cowgirl, and truly value good horses, but these "wild horses" simply don't qualify. Something different needs to be implemented to save the range, and treat these horses differently.


The North Dakota feeding area is a huge wild horse sanctuary. If that is what you were referring to, that's what it is. My vets here in Texas actually have a wild Mustang mare with foal on her side getting ready to be transported to the sanctuary. I don't care if someone is wanting to feed them, more power to them. I would too if I could afford it

That is all I'm jumping in on this thread, it is a hot spot topic with no correct answer, and mean spiritedness just starts overflowing toward each other. Too bad.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Dept of Interior spends 47 million to feed wild horses, each year. More and more Midwest pastures are being used to hold the growing wild horse population.https://www.eenews.net/stories/1060037142


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol why should we give a rancher anything to pay for “ lost pasture”?
> It’s not his if he is paying rent .


The ranchers do pay rent, it is called a grazing lease. He then puts in improvements, water wells, corals, fences all out of his own pocket. Sometimes the government will put up matching funds for a well, if it will benefit wildlife as well as cattle. Everything else the rancher pays for.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Not exactly, instead of paying so much per acre he usually pays so much per cow.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I passed a nice herd of wild horses yesterday I believe. Of course they might of been domestic can hard to tell


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

AmericanStand said:


> Not exactly, instead of paying so much per acre he usually pays so much per cow.


Per acre or per cow, when you are the one writing the check it feels like rent.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I understand but there’s a big difference. 
If I rent an acre of pasture from you it’s in my best interest to get every pound of fodder possible but when I rent by the cow it’s in my best interest to under stock and feed the highest quality water available.
Look at it as if you had a pasture of your own and you tell one neighbor he can have 10 cows on there for four dollars per head per month and you have six cows is he getting ripped off because you have some cows in there too ?
It’s kind of the same with the federal government you can have your cows on there but we’re going to keep our moose and our dear and in this case our wild horses .


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