# Breeding For a Homestead Dairy Cow



## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

We used to have several straight Jersey cows, but they were just a little too delicate for this region. I was convinced they were like a sheep and born just looking for a reason to die. They did not do good in this area at all. We had one die in 6 inches of water. Someone offered way more than I thought they were worth and I couldn't get the ---- things loaded in the trailer fast enough.

For quite a while I was looking for something a little bit tougher that could handle our extreme winters and ur dry summers. I decided that I would have to eventually start crossbreeding to get exactly what I was looking for, but I wanted to start with a Milking Shorthorn.

This past winter I found a first calf heifer that had calved in late fall of last year. She is a very nice cow, though she is a little big, in my opinion, for a homestead type dairy cow. I had two others here at the ranch that I wanted to bring into my process of breeding for a good crossbreed. One was a Jersey snd Angus cross and the other is a straight Angus. I call her straight Angus, but as you can see below, she had to get that yellow color from somewhere. We have had the cow's maternal side for several generations and they have all came out yellow for some reason and they have all had super great milking ability. Somewhere in there, I think there is a dairy cow.

Anyhow, I sold the Jersey and Angus cross because that cow had the worst traits of both breeds. The Milking Shorthorn and the Angus will both be getting AI'ed as soon as they come into heat. Going through the Accelerated Genetics catalogue, I picked out two of the best Jersey bulls I could find. I don't want a pure Jersey, but I do think a Jersey cross might work. In the catalogue, they had many criteria that a person can pick or choose from in order to get the traits a person wants. I want to end up with a smaaler type animals, but I want good and heavier bone structure, plus I want good teat length. 

I went ahead and spent a little more to get the sexed semen in order to wind up with a heifer calf. I dairy bred bull calf isn't worth much and I have little need for one. Once I get the calves from these two crosses grown, I will try and figure out at that time which direction I may need to explore in order to further enhance my cross.

The two calves in the pictures will also be involved in this crossbreeding program too. The red calf is a registered Milking Shorthorn and she is out of the cow we bought. When we went to buy the cow and the calf, I wanted to buy another calf to graft onto the cow as she had more milk than one calf could eat. The gray calf is 3/4 Brown Swiss and 1/4 Holstein. She is going to make a big cow, so her calves will be by a bull from a smaller breed.

I don't know yet how this will all turn out, but I still feel like I need to try in order to get something that will better me the needs homesteaders in this region.

There are several aspects in this little program I am probably skipping over, but I didn't want to make this post into a novel. If anyone has suggestions or questions, I would love to hear them.


Tex


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

I don't know much about milk cows, but I'd say you got a great start!


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## arnie (Apr 26, 2012)

I agree that the jerseys need to be pampered or are just not tough enough to handle life out on the range . as dairy type cattle are bred to make milk they will if not fed well enough; as in on a rough pasture ;rob from there own bodies to fill the bucket .using the milking shorthorn is a good choice .and I wish I had one myself not only to milk but to raise the calf for beef and fill my freezr every year with high quality beef it may be hard to improve on a short horn but if you are adding smaller body size and good teat size couple with forageing ability 'I hope you succeed and I get one some day 
. in my youth I remember many horned herferd/ jersey crosses as milkers on the local small farms . I think this was because family armers just used the neighbors bull that was available and free ;but these crosses were kept because they were tougher and could get by on little grain. I had a brown swiss for years and found her to be a gentle giant with the best temprement .


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## moohorn (Sep 24, 2013)

I love hearing about different peoples breeding strategies. My family is tired of hearing me talk about it! LOL Our first Jersey was a walking health time bomb. I decided to breed to an angus to get a cow that was heartier, a more full bodied creamy milk, and could maintain her weight well. Since she was my jerseys calf, and was in with her full time and we had to pour the food out their for the Jersey, the angus cross became obese. She was not milk aggressive like the jerseys calves so I always had to make sure the Jersey was milked out the entire time. I guess she was just too fat to need extra calories like the scrawny jerseys. Sadly she didn't enjoy being petted. Had more of the angus temperament and being fat I didn't know if she would breed back. So I butchered her. I have done the same experiment with goats. Breeding meat with dairy. I find that the offspring do maintain their weight well, the milk is richer, and the first generation make great milk goats that produce beefier offspring. Most teat sizes have been fine but occasionally will get some that are short. I do breed to a goat with mile long teats. LOL


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## kycrawler (Sep 18, 2011)

I have jerseys and like them. You may want to check into the normande breed. I am strongly considering crossing my jerseys with normande bulls


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

kycrawler said:


> I have jerseys and like them. You may want to check into the normande breed. I am strongly considering crossing my jerseys with normande bulls


Please don't take me wrong, I'm not knocking Jerseys. They just don't work well around here. It takes forty acres per cow/calf pair out here on a good year. Where we are, we can get by on a little less because we have a river right behind the house. That creates a whole new set of problems though. We really like Jersey cattle, but having winter temps that can get down to -30 and needing so much ground just to graze a cow/calf, they just don't do well here.

I have done a little research on the Normande cattle and really like what I have found out so far. Unfortunately, they are just now making their presence known out here. Just in the last few months I have come across people advertising them. A few weeks ago, I spoke with a man who had a cow and calf for sale. He is one of those who goes back east and picks up used cattle from the dairies and brings them out here to peddle off. I really didn't want to buy my first cow of a certain type from cow a jockey or trader. I seriously think a cross to a normandy would work out really well on the Jersey calves I get out of this very first cross.

There is one thing I am always stressing to new homesteaders or people on small plots of land who want to get into cattle and it seems that many folks overlook this avenue. Although they can't start raising a herd of beef cattle, they can buy a good milk cow or two and they can raise calves off of them for beef and sale. They can also raise dairy heifers to sell for a good profit.

I use the heck out of a milk cow and I make them work for me. This is why Jersey cows don't work for me. They have the milk, but for this area, they don't have the toughness for what I do. Once a cow comes fresh, I start looking for bum calves, or heifer calves from a dairy. In my opinion, if a cow can't raise a few bums, plus provide milk for the house, she needs to go. I will put three calves at a time on a cow. I usually try to time the cow freshening so I have easy access to calves so that I can make my timeline work out.

When the cow has been in milk for five months or so, those calves should be five months old. I pull them off to wean at that time and then I put on a few more calves. When the cow has been in milk for ten months, the second batch of calves should be five months and ready for weaning. So, by the time ten months has rolled around, I have raised six calves on one cow. Now keep in mind, I do feed the cow during all of this. There would be way too much stress on the cow to expect her to do so much while having nothing more than what the pasture offered. 

One of the main reasons I am getting into this cross breeding thing is to try and develop a cow that can do more with less input. This would really help the people on smaller plots of land who want to raise cattle, but simply don't have enough room to raise a beef herd. Going this route, a person can raise enough beef for their own needs and have plenty to sell in order to cover feed costs as well as make a profit. They can also raise dairy heifers to sell and there is good money in that out here.

Forty acre ranchettes or small homesteads may not have alot of land, but people can still make the ground pay for itself. My work on crossbreeding may or may not work, I don't know yet. I will keep trying though. When people think of a family milk cow, the first thing they think of is a Jersey, but folks out here are learning they don't work out too well in this area. In order to make a family cow work out here and not be cost prohibitive, it is going to take something different than is currently available. We make all of our animals and livestock work for us to make a profit. When they cost us more than what they produce is worth, we can't afford to keep them around. In my opinion, a good family cow is one of the best things people can invest in. There are many ways to utilize her and what she produces and if a person can't figure out ways to make profits from her, they just aint looking hard enough.


Tex


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## southernmom (May 1, 2013)

Hey Tex!
What do you think about a hereford or santa gertrudis for a milker?


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## kycrawler (Sep 18, 2011)

Yes I understand where youare coming from completely I milk 15 head of jersey cows and feed calves with the milk we wean at 3 months . I bred a few of my jerseys to normande and a few to Hereford trying to get cows that would hold better condition on grass and need less supplemental feed .Those heifers. Are getting close to breeding age now so iwont know full results for a while yet


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## tommyanunnaki (Apr 30, 2014)

I think that little red calf will get the job done for you. Good strong lines, feet look square and sound (tough to tell without watching her walk) and she looks calm. She won't be a small cow, which means that you can breed her to pretty much whatever you like. If you want a calf for the freezer every year you can put a beef bull to her. I don't think you will have anything to complain about.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

I met someone once that said he milked an angus for over a decade as a family cow because he didn't know any better when he started, and saw no reason to stop once he had her trained. Teats is teats, he said.


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## arnie (Apr 26, 2012)

lookin at that shorthorn I thought why cross that beuty with a jersey .they used to be more common as the 3 purpose cattle milk beef and oxen


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## fullmetal (Nov 2, 2013)

my goal (when i have the land for a cow or two) would be a highland / jersey cross. tough, multipurpose, and from what ive heard docile


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

Highland, Galloway or Dexter are small and multipurpose. Angus are fairly small, and while not traditional dairy animals they have excellent quality milk. Angus x Jersey makes good beef and good milk, in large but not overwhelming quantities.

Personally, I like the original shorthorns as multipurpose cattle, but they aren't small. The breed was split into milking shorthorns (tough cattle that developed in Australia from feral cattle), and beef shorthorns (which also went into developing Herefords). A cross of the two shorthorns makes an excellent milk and beef cow, and the ancestral type, now present as the Durham, is nearly ideal as smallholder's multipurpose cattle. 
Note that they were also bred as draught animals, and hence are docile and tractable, but again they aren't noways nohow small. It takes about twenty minutes to train your shorthorn or Durham milk cow to be a bareback riding animal, provided they are used to being bribed with a curry brush. They'll stand patiently for hours, chewing their cud, if you go to sleep against their flank while you're milking them. Warm and cuddly. Mind you, you'd probably end up with mucky legs and mucky milk, but the animal itself hasn't moved - just its bowels and its bladder.


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## Wintersong Farm (Aug 22, 2007)

I have three - great milkers. Do well in Wisconsin winters.


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## ~Tomboy~ (Oct 13, 2005)

You might want to look at the Tarentaise breed

http://www.americantarentaise.org/

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/breeds/cattle/tarentaise/index.htm

Although I partial to Dexters myself


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

fullmetal said:


> my goal (when i have the land for a cow or two) would be a highland / jersey cross. tough, multipurpose, and from what ive heard docile


I realize I will get flamed for this and I am very likely to tick a few people off, but in my opinion, the pics below best describe all that a Highlander cow is good for. I absolutely hate them and I do not have one good thing to say about them at all.

The Hostile Native bought two several years ago, because she likes to have an oddball or two in the main cow herd. Both of these things were wild as a bucksnort and could not be tamed. We run cattle on over 6500 acres, so we do not make pets out of our cattle, but we did try to tame these two down. Never again. There is still one out in the pasture and she has a calf every other year, just like clockwork. Running a beef outfit though, a calf every two years aint good.

I have fed out some of the calves that were by an Angus bull and they were tougher than hell. I feed out very good and know how to raise a beef for the freezer, but they were never as good as the straight Angus. Like I said, I know some folks on here really like them, but I will never let another Highlander on this place.

The cow below was the meaner of the two and everybody who ever saw her that, knew about cattle, would not trust her. She came after me and hoked me sending me over a fence in the corrals. Thank goodness the fence was there, because she put the brakes on and came back trying to get to me. Lucky for her, she was bred or I would have shot her and left her laying right then. As soon as the calf was born, I grafted it onto the milk cow. Even that little ******* was mean and hard to deal with.


Tex


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

Wow, Tex-, you having a bad day or something? We might each have our favorite and least favorite, but I could have done without this. It's the weekend, chill out.


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

Sorry, not a bad day at all. As a matter of fact, we had the butcher out this morning to process two more that I have been feeding out and they both looked really good. It is a good day, to say the least. After having to deal with the two Highlanders we had though, I have a justified hate on for those things.

I did not mean to offend anyone though. Every breed has its positives.


Tex


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

wogglebug said:


> Angus x Jersey makes good beef and good milk, in large but not overwhelming quantities.


We have had a few Angus X Jersey cattle over the past several years and they did ok. They never really did either the beef or the milk that great though. We have a herd of beef cows, so I'm not really trying to develop a good beef dairy cross. During calving time, having a good milk cow around is very handy in the event a bum calf comes along needing a momma. It saves us from having to bottle feed it.

That being said though, one of the cows pictured above is Angus, with something else in there way back that gives her the odd color, and she will be AI'ed to a Jersey. She has the temerament and milk production I want along with the toughness and sturdiness I am looking for. Her heifer Angus X Jersey heifer calf will be crossed with another dairy bull when the time comes. I will have to see what she looks and acts like before I determine what breed to go with.



wogglebug said:


> The breed was split into milking shorthorns (tough cattle that developed in Australia from feral cattle), and beef shorthorns (which also went into developing Herefords).


http://www.milkingshorthorn.com/breedhistory.html
http://www.herefordcattle.org/about-us/history/

It would not surprise me to find out that Hereford cattle can trace some of their lineage back to Durham's. The Durham cattle were developed almost 200 years prior, the best I can determine. 

I haven't really seen anything that would lead me to believe that the Milking Shorthorn cattle we have in this country came from Australia. The first Durham cattle in this country came over from Britain in 1783. They later got renamed, Milking Shorthorn.

Durham cattle were the first outcross made on the old Longhorn cattle to try and improve the quality of the beef as well as the temperament. Next came the Hereford crosses. Some of the old-time cattle ranchers paid very large sums to import bulls in hopes of getting better prices at sale time.



wogglebug said:


> They'll stand patiently for hours, chewing their cud, if you go to sleep against their flank while you're milking them.


I'm sure they will, but I would be very leary of falling asleep around here. Some of the stock around here might try to take advantage if they see an opening. LOL


Tex


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

~Tomboy~ said:


> You might want to look at the Tarentaise breed
> 
> http://www.americantarentaise.org/
> 
> ...


Like alot of other people, I always considered them to be more of a beef cow than dairy. They have an interesting history though.

One thing I did see that I didn't like was, they are brought in and kept in a barn from October to April. Having been raised that way, they do not really have the genetic predisposition to get out and hustle through the winter. That is one trait that I am working toward and it is even more important for the area I live in.

There are some interesting aspects though that certainly bare a little thought.


Tex


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## lakeportfarms (Apr 23, 2009)

That was you experience Tex. Like G. Seddon said, chill out. I can tell you stories about the Angus I've dealt with.

The Highland cow my wife is sitting on basically jumped over a fence one day to help protect my wife from a wild Hereford cow. I won't know what she'll taste like because when the day comes she'll get a nice spot on the property for her final resting place as appreciation for being an outstanding producer and gentle loving pet. She's 16 years old, calved back every year, and has never had a vet out to so much as look at her. That's her daughter that our nephew is practicing his roping technique on.


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

I'm chilled. Hell, I never was upset. I just said that "I" have a hate on for them. I did counter that though, saying that every breed has their attributes. People have different needs though and often times, people tend to forget that every breed will not work well in every region or situation. I did find a good use for that cow though and she didn't go to waste.

We are ranchers, but we are also homesteaders. We do not make pets out of our livestock. They are here to work for us and make us money or food. If they can't do that, they don't stay. Even cattle we like get sold to slaughter or they get made into beef for ourselves when the time comes. 

I have had to deal with rank cattle in just about every common breed and there has even been quite a few ****** Angus in that mix as well. Nowadays though, the first thing we cull replacement heifers for is attitude. There has been alot of times when we will send the best looking heifers we have down the road because they are high headed. Nine times out of ten, a rank cow will raise rank calves and we don't want them. It doesn't cost any more to feed a docile cow than it does one who has her head and tail both held high as she is chasing you down.

I wasn't saying people are wrong for raising anything. I was saying that one breed in particular is way wrong for me. If something works for someone in their situation, then it works. 


Tex


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## ~Tomboy~ (Oct 13, 2005)

Tex, think you might want to do a little bit more research on the Tarentaise breed. They are part of Kit Pharos breeding program in Colorado, and there are breeders in Wyoming.

Here is what is on the Pharo Cattle Companys website along with the breeds they use.

*Red Angus, Black Angus, Hereford, Tarentaise *and* Composites *of these breeds. These are all moderate sized, low-maintenance breeds of cattle with extremely strong maternal traits.

* Tarentaise *is a Continental breed that originated in the French Alps. They are noted for their fertility, milk production, meat to bone ratio, and excellent udder conformation. Compared to the British breeds, Tarentaise have a higher growth rate, higher milk production, and produce a leaner carcass. Compared to most of the other Continental (exotic) breeds, they excel in calving-ease and fertility, while having a smaller mature size. Tarentaise is the most moderate sized exotic breed that I know of. A Tarentaise-cross cow is extremely hard to fault.


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

I did say I was going to give them some more thought. What I said about them being kept in barns in France was taken from the tope site you linked to. I haven't looked at the second link yet. 

They may be what I am looking for, but I would need to do quite a bit more research before I make that determination. Whenever I am trying to figure out something such as this, I will usually disregard most of what the breeders websites have to say and go and visit with the people who are actually using the cattle. The websites for breeders are just about like websites for everything else that is being sold. You can get the basics and they willl tell you why you should buy that product, but they never give you the negatives. Speaking with the people who are running cattle under similar conditions, or with similar goals, a person can usually get the lowdown. That is how I decided on the Shorthorn as a basis for this project.

It is good to know there are people running them so close though. I am interested in them for sure. Now I just need to figure out a few things to see how interested I am. Thanks.


Tex


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## MARYDVM (Jun 7, 2004)

When looking for Jersey semen to use in your breeding program, consider the New Zealand Jersey bulls. The cattle there are bred for grassfed operations. Their Jerseys tend to be smaller with more body capacity. They are moderate producers on pasture/hay without the need for high grain feeding to maintain body weight.

You won't find the bulls listed with any of the big US semen distributors, but the company name is LIC New Zealand, and they have a couple of sales reps in this country. The semen is shipped out of Minnesota, and the shipping charges can be a big negative factor if you just have a small order.

I've just placed an order for 4 different bulls from LIC. They are all negative stature (produce smaller daughters) and A2A2 beta casein. In my case, I'm breeding for a smaller thrifty Jersey that can handle the desert heat here in southern AZ while feeding mostly hay,and a little grain at milking.

We'll see how it goes.


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

Good luck on that, Mary. Please let me know what you think of it when you are able to start seeing results. Had I known about that, I would have given this route a very serious look. I ended up going through Accelerated Genetics and bought ten straws of sexed semen. The minimum order was five straws, so I got five each from two different bulls that met my criteria. Having know about your information sooner though, I would have probably done things a little differently.

Can you get sexed semen from the outfit selling the Aussie semen? What is their minimum order? Are the prices bearable?


Tex


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## MARYDVM (Jun 7, 2004)

They have 5 bulls available with sexed semen in the U.S. I found the prices quite reasonable compared to what Select Sires is going for down here. 
The regular straws were $14 - 16.50 and the sexed semen I ordered was $38 each. The killer was the shipping charge to AZ. I do a little A.I. for some backyard milkers here in Tucson, so I ordered 20 straws. But there was no minimum order requirement.


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## Sensiblefarmer (Apr 24, 2014)

So the guy doesn't like Highlanders. So what? Why is it that in today's society people get so "offended" when someone has the nerve to state their opinion? Stop blaming others for your emotional frailty. I happen to like Highlanders. That someone else doesn't, isn't the end of my world or even enough to ruin my day. If I'm honest I can readily admit that some Highlanders are terrible to work with. I've seen them. I wouldn't have an Angus on the place myself. Again, so what?


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

Tex-

What started out as an interesting thread about selecting for your needs and environment abruptly went down the tubes with your post about the Highland. I think all of us here readily accept that there are breeds we prefer and those that we donât, as well as the fact that there are individual animals in all breeds that have bad temperaments.

Illustrating your negative post about the Highland with a photo of the cow bleeding out on the ground was a bit over the top. I think everyone on this board understands where beef comes from, but to me, itâs quite obvious that you had a bad experience with this animal and got even. 

When you state that you âwill get flamed for this and I am very likely to tick a few people off,â donât be surprised when it happens.


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

So anyway...

The Shorthorn has had her first calf and the Angus in the pics is raising her second or third calf. I bought some of the scratch off type heat detection patches that ho between the tailhead and point of the hips and both cows have been isolated together on good hay and feed. I was turning them out in the yard around the barns during the day and bringing them in each night.

These cows had never seen each other until I put them together and I noticed they weren't grazing anywhere close to one another. Seeing that, I started keeping them kept up in the corral atleast until I saw them riding one another. It has been over a month though and Neither one has ridden the other to indicate a heat.

I've asked a neighbor who does alot of AI and he couldn't think of what might be going on and now I'm trying to come up with alternatives. We have a couple of young new bulls we just picked up in the other corrals, so I am going to move both cows down thhere today and put them into the pen next to the bulls. It will drive the bulls nuts, but I can't think of much else to try at this point. Sexed semen is not always as fertile, so I have been warned that inducing a heat may be counter productive. 

I am open to suggestions on this one.


Tex


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## homesteader25 (May 8, 2014)

Have you ever thought about dexters?


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

As far as incorporating them into my little crossbreeding experiment?


Tex


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## homesteader25 (May 8, 2014)

Just as they are usually everything you need in a homestead dairy cow


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

I know alot of people feel that way, but I tend to disagree. Dexters work for some people, but I haven't seen their advantage out here for what I'm trying to do. There are a few people around here who have them, but several of them have told me there are different aspects they wish their Dexters were better at. 

The ultimate goal is to produce a cow that has the smaller frame size and temperament of a Jersey, while having the heavier bone structure of a Shorthorn and a thick hide like the Brown Swiss. I am not interested in having production like a Holstein, but I do want them to be capable of raising six calves a year, while also meeting all of the dairy needs for the house.

A person could probably find a cow that meets that criteria, but now for the kicker. I want one that can do that in this region and area. We are high and dry here and most dairy breeds are not used to hustling. I do a very good job of feeding and taking care of animals, but I am trying to end up with an animal that can do that on minimal input. It takes alot of gumption on the part of a cow to get out and hustle in this region and most have to be bred for it, atleast somewhat.

A cow should not be more trouble than they are worth, but in this area, a dairy type cow can lead to alot of work. I have tried different breeds and had better luck with some than others. Then there are other breeds that cause me to listen to folks who have raised them in this area. I am not trying to develop a multipurpose cow, but rather one that can do a particular job well in this area.


Tex


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## Sensiblefarmer (Apr 24, 2014)

G. Seddon said:


> Tex-
> 
> What started out as an interesting thread about selecting for your needs and environment abruptly went down the tubes with your post about the Highland. I think all of us here readily accept that there are breeds we prefer and those that we donât, as well as the fact that there are individual animals in all breeds that have bad temperaments.
> 
> ...




I think that it's a sad day when people feel that sensoring the truth is preferable to discussing the hard realities of life.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

No one is being censored here, not at the moment.

Homesteading Today has the "Be Nice" rule though, lets not forget that.
Is saying you "hate" a breed of cattle and then posting graphic pics like that considered being nice? 
Probably not to a lot of people. 
I am letting it stand because this is about cattle. 
They are meat animals and we have had worse pics than that here.
Please watch the cursing too. 

To the OP:
Good luck in your quest for the perfect hardy dairy cow.
In my experience you sacrifice a lot of the "hustle" for pounds of milk.
A cow who is out scrounging feed has less time or energy left to make all that milk.
If it was easily bred for in a few generations I think we would have that breed already. 

Just my opinion, obviously.


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

gone-a-milkin said:


> If it was easily bred for in a few generations I think we would have that breed already.
> 
> Just my opinion, obviously.


That breed is already here for many different regions of the country. We have many different breeds available for folks to choose from and there is something out there for everybody.

This region of the country is a little different though. There has been a long gap between alot of the original homesteaders who helped to settle this region and the people who are homesteading in this region today.

Way back when, the homesteading allotments for people in this region were just big enough for people to think they were getting something and then wind up starving. If a family was not fortunate enough to file a claim on a good water source, they usually starved or droughted out in very short order. The people who were able to prove up, breeding up a good strain of milk cow was the farthest thing from their mind and they just made do while they worked to improve their ranches.

It hasn't been until recently when the demands for energy have increased so much and outside people were drawn to this area for jobs that the homesteading mindset has taken hold again. Now we have people buying 40 and 80 acre ranchettes and they want nothing more than to try to be self sufficient while they are working at their job to pay for their place.

Most of these people do not have the time, space nor inclination to try and improve on what works well in other areas, eventhough it does lack in this area. This region of the country has never been known as a dairy mecca and alot of times a tame range cow was what was used for a family's milk needs. That is all changing in the recent past though and people are looking for something that will work for here.

A 40 or 80 acre spot is not nearly enough land to try and raise a small herd of beef animals as well as use the land for other stock too. One good milk cow though can utilize that land very efficiently while raising enough extra calves for a family's beef needs and also some to sell. That is what I am going for.

It may not work, but I won't know until I try. As I said though, the homesteading and self sufficiency thing is a recent development for this region. Before this movement took hold here, all of the land outside of the towns belonged to big ranches. Now alot of those ranches are being divided up and that is where these people are moving to.

I am looking at alot of different avenues to try and make this work and there is no telling what may get thrown into the mix. I'm not looking for a multi purpose animal though as that is not the end goal. What little bit of beef influence I plan to add will come from cattle born and raised in this region.

On a different note...
My wife and I do this sort of stuff for a living. We don't run a hobby farm. This is not our weekend get away. We do this day in and day out to take care of ourselves as well as our extended families. I am not a sensitive person and I call things like I see them. 

If my pictures of dead and hanging beef offend people, it may be wise to have me removed from the board or just avoid my threads. I do my very best to help people and educate them as to what actually goes on around a ranch and a homestead. I try to take alot of pictures whenever something is going on so that I may share them with others. Sometimes these pictures and the stories they tell are not pleasant, but they are what actually goes on.

We had the butcher out again yesterday and I have several pictures of the process from start to finish. I also have a picture story of gelding horses. If you see a thread with "Branding" in the title, avoid that one too. This is not a petting zoo around here and things are done a certain way for a reason. I am always trying to learn something, but I have been doing this stuff for a long time and I enjoy sharing what little bit of knowledge I have.

If someone wonders why I feel the way I do about something, or they wonder why I do something a certain way, ask me. And trust me, when I have a question about someone else's preferred methods or their reasons for something, I will ask. 


Tex


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## Sensiblefarmer (Apr 24, 2014)

I wish you well with your project, although I think that you might be asking for a bit much, especially with the milk production that you're looking for. I don't think that there's any getting around the fact that you need lots of quality feed and/or forage to produce lots of milk. Remember that the Longhorns developed pretty much on their own to survive poor conditions. They produced meat simply because they are a large animal, but they were not efficient at it, and their milk production was just enough to raise a calf. All of the so-called dual purpose "heritage" breeds almost died out simply because they do not do either job well. A good dairy type body is very different from a good beef type body. Mix the two and you don't magically get an animal that is better at both, you get one which gives you some of each, but it will not be an optimal producer of either. I'm sure that you know all of this, I'm just posting because there are a lot of gullible people who swallow the ALBC propaganda that the "heritage" breeds will be the savior of us all. There is a reason that they lost favor, and it's simply that they are not productive. You can't pencil nostalgia into the bottom line.


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

Sensiblefarmer said:


> I'm sure that you know all of this, I'm just posting because there are a lot of gullible people who swallow the ALBC propaganda that the "heritage" breeds will be the savior of us all. There is a reason that they lost favor, and it's simply that they are not productive. You can't pencil nostalgia into the bottom line.


Thank you for that. I have been saying the same thing for quite a while. 200 year old genetics are just that, 200 years old. In the last 100 years or so, there have been alot of advancements in cattle genetics and that is why we enjoy a bunch of the traits we have today. I can't think of anything one of the heritage breeds can do that another breed can't do better. The advancements that have been made were done for a reason by people who actualy used those cattle to make a living. 

I understand what you are trying to say about feed and milk production and you are right. My animals still get fed and well cared for as I don't just expect to turn them out to fend for themselves. Along with what I have listed previously, heartiness is a major trait that I am going for. I want something that can utilize what is here and be able to navigate a little rougher ground and terrain.

We had a Jersey that got a back leg into a foxhole and then waited there for me to come and pull her out with the feed truck. There is what is considered a river in Wyoming, right behind the house. One of Jerseys decided to cross it one time on a gravel bar. She drowned in literally six inches of water.don't ask me how that one happened, because I still haven't figured it out. Our grass here is tough, but it's strong. I have seen those girls standing belly deep in good graze refusing to eat it.

When you start expecting more from an animal, it only makes sense that you will have to increase your input somewhat. That being said though, that animal should atleast be trying to do for itself. I have not seen any of the dairy breeds that will do that. Some will to an extent, but the dairy cattle in this country today are derived from those on the bigger dairies and almost all of those are fed every bite they eat. Thank goodness we have those dairies in operation, but they have bred out alot of desirable traits. Don't get me wrong, they have made some major improvements, but traits like teat length and heartiness have fallen by the wayside. 

Tex


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## crobin (Mar 17, 2014)

Hi, I know it has been a few days since this thread, but we raise Brown Swiss. Great cows, big though. They are really hard to breed using a bull, they just don't take. AI is a much better option. I don't know if your 3/4 will have any problems.


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

crobin said:


> Hi, I know it has been a few days since this thread, but we raise Brown Swiss. Great cows, big though. They are really hard to breed using a bull, they just don't take. AI is a much better option. I don't know if your 3/4 will have any problems.


The plan is to use AI. As a general rule, dairy bulls always tend to be a little meaner than other bulls and we sure don't want a dairy bull getting into the beef herd. We wouldn't own a bull period if we didn't absolutely have to have one, as they are just a major pain in the butt that can be mighty destructive. 

Not having many dairy cattle of any kind in this area, there are even fewer dairy bulls. I have been pouring through the different sites offering semen from top bulls and then going over all the different choices available. It is better for what I am trying to accomplish if I use the best that is available .

Too many times, when people breed an animal, they do it simply to get offspring. If we are going to assume the added responsibility of breeding animals, we should be constantly vigilant that we are making an improvement. Breeding just to get another baby assures us of having nothing better than what we have always had. No animal is perfect, but that does not mean we shouldn't strive to breed for that perfect animal. 

The truth is, most homesteader type folks have little need for a bull. Until a person gets up to around 25 head of cattle, owning a bull is very hard to pencil out. This is especially true when a person has less than ten head. If we ever get out of the ranching game and move to a smaller place, a bull will not be going with us. We are very fortunate to be living in a time when we have so much information available to us. It is nothing to look around online and within just a few minutes we can find exactly what we need. After a couple minutes more, we can buy what we need and have it on its way to our door. This works well when it comes time to pick a herdsire for a few animals too.


Tex


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

Man, I love threads like this.

I look forward to hearing of the outcomes of your experiments, Tex!


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## Sensiblefarmer (Apr 24, 2014)

> I can't think of anything one of the heritage breeds can do that another breed can't do better.


They can look better. A herd of Dutch Belts on pasture. A nice Longhorn steer. Even those Highlanders you have to admit are pretty to look at. (OK, maybe in a year or so when you've gotten that miserable cow out of your system.) We're on the same page for the most part, but don't get me wrong, I do like the heritage breeds. I like their nostalgia and for the most part their looks. I think it would be a shame to see them lost. What I don't like is the ALBC propaganda that makes them out to be something that they're not, and I find it very sad to see how many people can't think for themselves and swallow it hook, line and sinker.

I'm glad to see that there are still people who can attempt a cross using the right mix of knowledge and purpose, not just "to see what we get", or because it's all that they have on the place when breeding time comes around. I bet that your animals don't all have cutesy names either.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

You might consider the Ayrshire. An excellent homesteading breed. Smaller cow, very hardy, and they are known for having a mild disposition.


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

I have thought alot about an Ayshire. I think they would make a good cross at some point. They have very nice traits, but they would be better as an outcross at some point in the future. I'm thinking in probably 2-3 generations down from the start.


Tex


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## CIW (Oct 2, 2007)

In the early 1500's the Spanish brought over a small breed of cattle with them. Over the millenia those cattle got loose and the feral offspring have developed into what today are called Cracker's.
They originally carried dairy traits and were kind of a hard scrabble type of cow. Since then, nature has selected and built a cow that can live well on things like salt grass and swamp brush. They have even developed a taste for many kinds of browse.
And they will raise a calf on that.
I would suspect that with those feral inputs that there is going to be some high headed tendencies that would need to be culled and eaten. But things like parasite resisrance, and the ability to stand the temperature extremes of the mountain west This may be a type of cow that will compliment what you are working toward.
From personal experience with both Shorthorn and Br. Swiss cattle I would agree that using both as foundations are likely a sound beginning.
Another that may be something to explore are the wild cattle that are down on the 
"Arizona Strip". There are cowboys in northern Arizona that still chase a few down to make a weekend dollar. I will say this. They will come look up your address,so look out.
I look forward to see photos of your results.


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## Sensiblefarmer (Apr 24, 2014)

I think you mean over the centuries, and what you describe is the history of the Longhorn. The crackers have only been around in rather recent decades, because groups like ALBC have to dream up names for nondescript populations of feral animals to justify their own existence and further their agenda, which is mainly to keep their treasury full by selling memberships. Convince a few people that a breed exists simply because you give it a name, and you have a whole other group of disciples to send in their check. Neither the crackers nor the Longhorns are good milk producers. The beef production qualities of the Longhorn are being worked on by a few breeders, but they still are nowhere near as good as a lot of other breeds. The crackers don't have good beef type either. Both are good at surviving on their own.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

"Immense" cattle have a tendency to handle adverse conditions better than the little frail pasture ornaments that we are told were the breeds of our forefathers. Our forefathers used most of their grain to make flour. Cattle were expected to fend for themselves. That is much easier when they put on an extra 300 pounds or so in the growing season. There is as much difference in lines of some cattle within the same breed as there is between some breeds. You are looking for a phenotype, not a breed. The Brown Swiss and the Shorthorn should have some examples of that phenotype. If you want a two foot tall milk cow, get a goat. If you want high milk production in marginal conditions, investing in some housing and plenty of grain and good hay might be cheaper than developing a breed.


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

CIW said:


> They originally carried dairy traits and were kind of a hard scrabble type of cow. Since then, nature has selected and built a cow that can live well on things like salt grass and swamp brush. They have even developed a taste for many kinds of browse.
> And they will raise a calf on that.
> I would suspect that with those feral inputs that there is going to be some high headed tendencies that would need to be culled and eaten. But things like parasite resisrance, and the ability to stand the temperature extremes of the mountain west This may be a type of cow that will compliment what you are working toward.
> From personal experience with both Shorthorn and Br. Swiss cattle I would agree that using both as foundations are likely a sound beginning.
> ...


The type of cattle you are describing used to work and work well, but that was all there was available. Cattle have been bred up and made better through alot of different breeding programs and I intend to take full advantage of all that hard work.

Longhorns or Cracker cattle may survive up here, but they are far from desirable in what I am hoping to accomplish. I really don't need to worry to much about parasites or worms here, so that is one trait I'm not even worrying about at this time. Those cattle have evolved and survived in the conditions they were in without help from people, but they evolved to become more suitable for those particular areas. This is a completely different environment and I think introducing them would probably give me more hurdles to overcome than if I were to use breeds that have more of the actual traits that I am shooting for.



barnbilder said:


> "Immense" cattle have a tendency to handle adverse conditions better than the little frail pasture ornaments that we are told were the breeds of our forefathers. Our forefathers used most of their grain to make flour. Cattle were expected to fend for themselves. That is much easier when they put on an extra 300 pounds or so in the growing season.


Immense cattle cannot handle the distances that are involved when a cow gets turned out while she is dry. Granted, small homesteads don't have the distance issues we have here on the ranch, but if I can develop something that works for us, I know it will do well for someone in this area who is on a small homestead.

In our beef cow herd, we shoot for 1100 pounds as a weight on the high end. All of our cows are expected to provide and hustle for themselves. We do not overgraze our pastures and we always try to go into fall and winter with alot of standing grass to give the cows something to eat during the cold months. Rarely do we feed them much hay until calving season. Even then, we don't put out much.

We have never had a cow put on an extra 300 pounds during the good part of the year. I have ran cattle in several different regions of this country and I have never seen any pasture cattle do that without the aid of alot of extra feed and if that has to be done, that cow needs to go because she is not paying for herself. Most cattlemen will time their calving so that the cow is feeding that calf during the times the grass is growing. Therefore, all of the extra nourishment she is getting goes into milk production to feed her calf, not put on extra weight for the coming winter. The cow is expected to maintain an ideal body condition while she is feeding her calf. If she can't do that, again, she needs to go.



barnbilder said:


> There is as much difference in lines of some cattle within the same breed as there is between some breeds. You are looking for a phenotype, not a breed.


True, there is alot of difference in some breeds. Each breed has their breed standards though that they shoot for in order to maintain the integrity of the individual breed. At this time, it is some of the different traits from the different breeds I am hoping to utilize. I could try and take it down to the finite details on some different traits, but it would be counter productive at this time. The trick will be to wind up with a general idea of what I am looking for and then refining it from there.



barnbilder said:


> If you want a two foot tall milk cow, get a goat. If you want high milk production in marginal conditions, investing in some housing and plenty of grain and good hay might be cheaper than developing a breed.


Have you even read my posts in this thread and what I am working toward? When have I ever said I wanted a two foot tall cow? Goats are fine, but they are not a homestead type dairy cow. The end goal is not to wind up with a high production milk cow that should be in a dairy, but rather one that can meet a family's needs while also providing a little extra income. I have spelled out what I am looking for pretty well, I though. 

A Brown Swiss and a Milking Shorthorn are both good cows, but they are pretty big for homestead needs. Alot of energy is needed to keep them warm and thriving in the winter time in this region. I appreciate some of their traits, such as good heavy bone structure and thick hides, but I would like to see that in a Jersey size cow and not something weighing 1500 to 1600 pounds. 

I know what it takes to get good production in marginal conditions nowadays, hence this little project I am working on. Our beef cattle can make it without a barn and all of the supplemental feed, so why can't I shoot for that in a dairy cow? I realize that there will still be a need for some supplements, but I would rather they go into milk production and not into keeping the animal alive. 

We have a barn for the dairy cow to use, but I would rather have a cow that doesn't prefer to stand in it all day waiting on me to feed her every bite she eats. We already feed grain and hay and along with the barn, we have all of the things you listed. By using AI and having a list of people who want calves that will let me breed them how I see fit, I don't understand how increasing input into things I already have would be cheaper. 

The whole goal is to end up with an animal that will not require the use of the things you listed as much as they do currently. Everyone of the main breeds we have these days has been the result of someone trying to improve what was currently available. There were traits that people wanted to see improved upon and they tried to make a better animal. What I am trying to do, is not to make a new breed, but rather improve on what is currently available and wind up with a good cross or mutt of some sort. There is a need for something that will meet the criteria I have listed and with alot of work and a little luck, I hope to end up with something that will do better in this region that we currently have.



Tex


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## jayell79 (Dec 2, 2014)

I'm a newb, and loved reading this thread! I grew up on a hobby farm in KS, and right now my dream is to start a homestead in CO (most likely South front range area.) I know water is an issue & a big factor when looking for land. I also know the prairie is very different out there. Some areas can be very arid, and pastures would need significant improvements to grow much. I've thought of incorporating a dairy cow into my plans, but honestly wasn't sure about the sustainability of that. Here you could easily pasture raise just about anything, but in CO I foresee lots of barn space, bales of hay & grain. Goats would do better on rough terrain and brush, but 1/2 the family wont drink that milk, and I'm sure we wouldn't like the meat either. I've been looking for dairy cows that might fit our needs better, and looks like I'm not alone. Heck I'd be happy if they didn't brake their legs out there, getting a few bites it eat is a bonus! Aysshire's may have potential, and the Tarentaise seem like they may do very nicely. I mean just look at the first picture in this slideshow! Holy cow! They are like goat/cows.

http://americantarentaise.org/gallery.asp?view=album&album=28

_"The Tarentaise breed's home is in the rugged Savoie region of France, site of the 1992 Winter Olympics. It surprises most people to discover that in France the breed is not dual-purpose, but is used solely for milk production for the making of Beaufort, a Gruyere-type cheese.

The cows are managed on pasture under intensive grazing management. The average production is 5,500 kilos (12,199 lbs) of milk in a 305 day lactation with no fed concentrates in the summer. Cows are dried off in the fall and kept in the barn from October through April because of snow and the danger of avalanche. Their basic ration is hay, sometimes haylage. Only high-producing cows get up to 5 lbs. of concentrates daily and then only for the six weeks leading up to their AI breeding. Most calving and breeding occur in winter.

In May the cows are turned out onto lush pastures at 2,500 feet. In June they are moved to high (and extremely steep) pastures at an average elevation of 8,000 feet. Daily temperatures often swing from below freezing to high above 80 degrees. Grazing ski slopes, the cattle are so removed from any town that the herdsmen actually stay with the cows for the entire three months and make the cheese on the spot. Tarentaise are the only cattle in Europe hardy enough to graze this region profitably. Climbing at these altitudes is what makes their remarkable natural muscling and marbling, as well as endowing the breed with a very robust cardiovascular system. This contributes to their inherent high resistance to the common respiratory/shipping disease complexes found in North America.

The first Tarentaise in North America were imported to Canada in 1972. A year later they were introduced to the U.S. beginning in the northern plains states and spreading to all corners of the continent with outstanding performance. They are also used as dairy cattle in Equatorial Africa and the Indian sub-continent. Able to adapt from Alps to deserts, dry plains to humid coasts, Tarentaise will perform for you also."_


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

I am still astounded at the concept of forty acres to feed a cow calf pair!! One would think they would walk themselves to death just getting a belly full?


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

Tex- said:


> I know alot of people feel that way, but I tend to disagree. Dexters work for some people, but I haven't seen their advantage out here for what I'm trying to do. There are a few people around here who have them, but several of them have told me there are different aspects they wish their Dexters were better at.
> 
> The ultimate goal is to produce a cow that has the smaller frame size and temperament of a Jersey, while having the heavier bone structure of a Shorthorn and a thick hide like the Brown Swiss. I am not interested in having production like a Holstein, but *I do want them to be capable of raising six calves a year, while also meeting all of the dairy needs for the house*.
> 
> ...


I missed this thread in May.

This would indeed be quite the accomplishment to get a cow that can raise 6 calves a year plus milk for the house - all on minimal input.

Pretty much violates the laws of physics or something. Normally when you have that much coming out of a cow, you have to put more into her. In addition, dairy cows lack muscle for a reason. Muscle takes more energy to maintain. More muscle, less energy for milk. So a beef cross cow will have higher maintenance requirements.

Don't know if Tex is around, but I'd like to know how you raise 6 calves a year. How long do you keep each one on the cow? And of course, their production drops the last half of lactation.

I had a lowline angus/jersey cross cow and took a gallon daily, and she raised her calf. I could see her raising one more, perhaps, but not 5 more, and she was on good pasture, not 40 acres per cow stuff, needing to "hustle".


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## nostawmama (Dec 29, 2011)

DJ in WA said:


> I missed this thread in May.
> 
> This would indeed be quite the accomplishment to get a cow that can raise 6 calves a year plus milk for the house - all on minimal input.
> 
> ...



He explained in Post#3. He puts 3 calves on a cow for 5 months, then pulls them to wean and puts 3 more on.

I also think people might be interpreting "minimal input" a bit more literally then what was intended- it seems to me that the goal was for an animal that would utilize the range he has better than the Jerseys, not that he wouldn't provide anything additional for them.


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