# Can we talked about neutering?



## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

As some of you know I have 2 maremmas boys.
Now the original owner stated in the paper work that I was to have them fixed by 7 months to get their registration papers.
I have been back and forth on this issue within myself.
The boys now are 11 months old. And I did NOT get them fixed.
It scares me, it never has before. I have spayed and neutered all my pets. These dogs are expensive and their issues to anesthesia and possible complications with improper growth worries me.

I called the breeder to let them know, and they as of yet haven&#8217;t returned my call. I'm assuming that I am SOL when it comes to getting their registration papers  However it means more to me to have them healthy, and on the other hand if I ever wanted another Maremma they will probilly NOT sale me one.

I love my boys and they have a awesome home and Mom (Me). It just sickens me that I may have lost a possible good friend/breeder because I weighed out the options and I felt it was best for my boys to not get fixed. It would completely devastated me if something went wrong with them from my hand.

I don&#8217;t know what to do, or how to fix it.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

Hmm, that's a tough position to be in. The papers really mean nothing unless you are going to breed so getting them after they are fixed would be meaningless to me.

However, you are worried about loosing a friend. Keep trying to reach the breeder and discuss your fears. Hopefully you can come to a comprimise. Maybe she will give you more time for them to mature and be better able to handle anathesia.


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## noeskimo (Mar 17, 2011)

There is more than 1 type of anesthesia.Talk to someone about alternatives.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> The papers really mean nothing unless you are going to breed


That's very true.

None of my dogs have had problems with anesthetics either.

It's a simple operation that takes less than 15 minutes so they aren't out for a long time


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Fowler said:


> I called the breeder to let them know, and they as of yet havenât returned my call. I'm assuming that I am SOL when it comes to getting their registration papers  However it means more to me to have them healthy, and on the other hand if I ever wanted another Maremma they will probilly NOT sale me one.
> 
> I love my boys and they have a awesome home and Mom (Me). It just sickens me that I may have lost a possible good friend/breeder because I weighed out the options and I felt it was best for my boys to not get fixed.


I personally wouldn't give it another thought. The dogs are worth more than a "friend" who was trying to manipulate you into how you raise your own pets and care for them. Honestly, it is none of her business when or if you alter your dog. And, you don't want them to have bone issues, so you chose to wait. If she cannot or will not understand that then she is not a friend.
As far as getting another dog in the future????? Believe me, there is more than one breeder of the dogs in this nation.

As far as early altering...... I did it for the first time this year. I just didn't want to deal with a dozen puppies to have to raise and find homes for, so I had my female altered before she could come into season the first time. I do regret it. She is so tall now, much taller than my male or other females have ever been. But the truth was, I just didn't want to deal with a litter of puppies. She is also very long and her back isn't straight like the other dogs' backs. She turns one in January, so she is still young. She is very sweet, and doesn't have any osteo issues right now, but I do worry that she might develop them. I know it is my fault for altering her too early, but I just couldn't do puppies again. I'm over 50, busy everyday, and just don't have it in me to do a dozen plus puppies at this point in my life. So I chose myself over the dog, and had her spayed. I feel so guilty about it, but it is what it is. With a male, it really isn't hard to just leave them intact until they are over 2, or for their whole lives. But with a female, it's a bigger issue due to the puppies.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

mekasmom said:


> So I chose myself over the dog, and had her spayed. I feel so guilty about it, but it is what it is.


I don't think that preventing an unwanted litter should make you feel guilty--the way I see it, you made the right choice.  So many unwanted dogs in shelters, you just saved a dozen lives.  How could you feel guilty about that?


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I had my boys neutered at 8 months of age. They are old enough at that point in IMO that it does not "stunt" them or do them harm. 
I worry more about them becoming sexually mature, running off to breed random females, adding to the already over-populated mixed breed population, not doing their jobs because they are distracted by heats of dogs or coyotes. 
I also take into consideration the fact that they are not breeding and they may become aggressive due to all that testosterone. I have lots of people come here to buy goats, visit, and such and I cannot have a hormonal dog growling at them when they are looking at goats. 

I have seen far too many Great Pyr/ Aussie mixes, Ana/ Border Collie mixes due to the fact that no one bothered to alter the animals. Then they claim they will be good guardians. Sheesh!!

I also think if you do not agree with breeders rules when purchasing a dog then you buy from someone else. Lots of responsible breeders have contracts due to the dog not being breeding quality, a fault, limited registration and etc. If you do not like it then pass on them and find someone else. I personally could careless about papers since I am not showing or breeding and care more about health and temperment so I will happily alter the dogs and not worry about it. So many animals are altered each year, they are fine and neutering is much easier on them then spaying. Problems thankfully are rare. 

Are you planning on not neutering them at all? Or waiting longer? 
Talk to the breeder and your vet and decide what you are going to do.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

When I worked for a vet, her opinion (and it was just her _opinion_) was that a lot of the pyr/lgd issues with anesthetic was that a lot of vets didn't weigh before administering. She weighed each and every dog and cat before surgery. She could guess an animals weight to within 2 lbs every time, but she still weighed. I have absolutely no idea how other vets work. Just throwing this out there for consideration.

And, as another poster said, there are different types of anesthetic.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

There may be more problems with a spay than a neuter. A neuter is snip snip, pretty quick. A spay is more complicated and takes longer. You don't _need _papers unless you are going to breed or put your dogs in shows or trials. Did you promise to have the boys altered, or is it the requirement for the papers only? Many breeders sell most of their litters on a spay/neuter contract because they only want the best ones bred.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Wolf Flower said:


> How could you feel guilty about that?


Because I put the best interest of the dog behind my convenience. And they wouldn't have ended up in shelters. They would have been homed.

I know that giant breeds shouldn't be altered under two years of age. But sometimes you just do what you feel you have to do. But it wasn't done for the best interest of the dog. She was altered just because I didn't feel I could care for a big litter at this point in time.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

thaiblue12 said:


> I also think if you do not agree with breeders rules when purchasing a dog then you buy from someone else. Lots of responsible breeders have contracts due to the dog not being breeding quality, a fault, limited registration and etc. If you do not like it then pass on them and find someone else.


I completely agree with this. My puppy contract states that the dog must be spayed/neutered before 8 months of age (I breed smaller dogs). I've had lots of people tell me that they aren't going to do it, and I tell them I respect their decision.....but I won't sell them one of my puppies. They are free to go and find a puppy miller who doesn't care what they do with their dog :shrug:.

If you signed papers stating that you agreed to neuter these dogs, and the breeder really takes offense at your not doing it, technically she could sue you for breach of contract. IDK if she'd do it or not, but if you signed a contract you are bound to those terms. I've had friends in the dog world taken to court over things like this, and the breeder wins when there is a signed contract. Just something to think about.......


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

I also don't like the breeders to tell me what to do with my animals after the sale. That is why I won't adopt a dog....too many restrictions for something I bought & paid for. 

HOWEVER, if I purchased the dogs with the agreement to have them neutered at 7 months, then I would feel obligated to neuter them. My word is my word and it means something to me. The registration papers are irrelevant after neutering. The breeder probably sold them cheaper than an intact breeding male, and also there may be a genetic fault that they don't want to propogate & have their name attached to, because they are not breeding quality. Breed only the best, ya know?

Yes they can be sensitive to anesthesia. I've never had a problem with it either, but then again my vet & all the techs are reminded many many times prior to any procedure. They are instructed to weigh, and administer only for effect. 

Besides, you'll have fewer issues if you neuter them. Those hormones can be pretty strong. Are you a strong owner and ready to alpha roll BOTH when they growl at you because the neighbors bi&ch is in heat and they are young and "stupit" and don't know any better? What about when they start fighting over her? Went through that with my intact breeding male at 2.5 years old, took a few times reminding him who was boss before he realized he didn't have to protect her from us. Also if they are livestock dogs you want their mind on protecting the stock, not seeking to reproduce with anything within a mile radius.

Just my $.02.
HF


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

This is why I don't do contracts and written agreements. Once I take cash tender from someone that dog becomes THEIR'S and I as a breeder have absolutely NO right to force them or tell them what to do with that dog. I can talk to them about being responsible and hope they raise it right and vet them out over the phone and in writing before I sell that pup to them and for me this has worked well so far. But there are plenty of control freak paranoid breeders out there who live for binding contracts and restrictions and ridiculous stipulations (like telling you who you can breed your dog to...oh please...). I am being flooded with interest calls and E mails for pups and dogs from people who specifically mention the fact that what appealed to them was my no BS approach and no contracts and no hidden clauses etc etc.... This invasive application stuff is an AKC show ring cancer thats trying to invade the LGD world and I'm just glad there are plenty of us real, working LGD breeders left who have not let their common sense go down the toilet....


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I do agree with contracts to a degree. And no....I don't see it just as a AKC show world thing. To me, it's more about only breeding dogs that are worthy of passing on their genetics. I think requiring that the dogs be OFA certified prior to breeding is a very good thing. And dogs that don't measure up (conformation-wise) should be sold on a spay-neuter agreement. With so many correct dogs out there in the gene pool, why dilute it with dogs that might have bad hips or conformation faults? So yeah....while some contracts can be way over the top, others are for the protection of the breed and I see those as a good thing.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Another thought:

Kinda reminds me (not saying any of you would do this, just sayin') of someone who bought a newly banded wether at a cheap price, because he was "wethered". The buyer cut the band off and used the unwethered buck as a breeder, then had the audacity to try to get the registration papers at no additional cost. 

It's people like that that make me sell as is (example banded with cold testicles) and priced appropriately at the time of sale.

With a dog I may consider selling at full price, and giving a rebate if proof of spay/neuter was provided with positive ID. But that agreement would have to be in place prior to the dog leaving. Otherwise forget it my only obligation would be to take the dog back for re-homing should he/she not work out.

HF


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Goatress, if you don't do contracts you're missing out on a great opportunity to CYA in case one of the dogs you breed/sell attacks a human.

I've known several cases where the breeder has been named in a "pain and suffering" lawsuit, even though the breeder hadn't seen the pup since it was 8 weeks old when it was handed over to the new owner. A few years down the road the dog bites someone and the owner AND the breeder are named in the lawsuit.

Especially when you're dealing with large breed dogs, you WANT a signed contract - even if that contract only states that you are not to be held responsible for any damage that the dog does to person, property, livestock, etc once the pup is handed over to the new owner. Its well worth it to pay an attorney a few hundred $$ to get this written legally and correctly so you can't be sued later on down the road.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

bluemoonluck said:


> Goatress, if you don't do contracts you're missing out on a great opportunity to CYA in case one of the dogs you breed/sell attacks a human.
> 
> I've known several cases where the breeder has been named in a "pain and suffering" lawsuit, even though the breeder hadn't seen the pup since it was 8 weeks old when it was handed over to the new owner. A few years down the road the dog bites someone and the owner AND the breeder are named in the lawsuit.
> 
> Especially when you're dealing with large breed dogs, you WANT a signed contract - even if that contract only states that you are not to be held responsible for any damage that the dog does to person, property, livestock, etc once the pup is handed over to the new owner. Its well worth it to pay an attorney a few hundred $$ to get this written legally and correctly so you can't be sued later on down the road.


Couldn't agree more, well bred dogs are easily ruined but that doesn't always save you from sharp lawyers and sympathetic courts.


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## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

ask her how much (more) you need to pay her for the dogs papers. you keep the dogs intact, get their papers...and keep a friend.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

It's a tough call, I can see both sides. Preventing unwanted litters IMO should be a concern of all pet owners, but so should a healthy pet. With large/giant breed dogs, I do see the benefits of waiting a little longer, if you are in a situation where you _can_ prevent them from breeding. 

The nice thing about doing it young is that they recover very quickly. My great dane was not spayed until she was 3 years old (I got her when she was 2) and her recovery was very tough, she didn't eat for days and it took weeks for her to be back to normal. I have never seen a puppy that wasn't on its feet the next day after being spayed/neutered. On the other hand, Trout (my dane) matured very nicely, has nice straight legs and good hips, which I've heard is a problem for great danes and giant dogs that are neutered/spayed when they are young.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

I have a policy where I'll take a pup back if the buyer has major life change, has to move....death in family....can't keep dog any longer...financial difficulties, job loss, etc...this ensures my dogs never end up in a shelter. My clients keep in touch with me constantly. Some have become great friends. 

On the topic of enforcing contracts... Another issue no one has addressed here: your contract is written in the state you live in, if you sell pups out of state, in order to enforce that contract elsewhere, you have to sue in an out of state court. But....seeing how the LGD world has really become infiltrated by the AKC show crowd in the last decade, I'm sure there are plenty of deep pockets breeders out there who can spend the $1,000's it would take to chase down a puppy buyer and sue them, and then are prepared for countersuits from the deep pockets buyer's attorneys....grin...... 

I know a buyer in MT who's making a GA Kangal breeder sweat right now. He turned it around on her and she's the one having to pony up. 

In other words, .... Be careful what you ask for with contracts...you may get it.

I spent an hour on the phone the other day with a big USDA official who started research on LGD's in the 1970's. We got around to discussing the 'infiltration' of the LGD world by the show set and AKC people. He said he saw it start about ten years ago and lamented the fact that it has really not helped in terms of the working quality of LGD's, and the price gouging that's come with it....and the decline of some breeds because they are having the brains bred out of them, and the guarding instinct. Another official told me the same thing, and how it is happening to working dogs like it does to horses, cattle, goats, etc..... IE we were all on the same page. They didn't like it, saw what was happening, and were sorry to see it. I found that very validating and frankly was almost glad to hear it because it showed I'm not the only one complaining about this...the big guns are too.

Kind of going off topic I know from neutering but no one is ever going to stop someone with a male and a female dog deciding they want to breed dogs. Thats what keeps the pounds and shelters full....and also, unethical breeders who don't really tell people what they are getting into with an LGD. My biggest gripe with a lot of Kangal breeders, particularly those affiliated with the KDCA, they croon and coo on their websites over how 'exotic' and 'sweet' these dogs are. Make them out to be lapdogs, practically...HA.... Then buyer takes one home and when they hit 9 mos old all of a sudden.....they turn into a Kangal...lol.... Its also why so many Anatolians are showing up in shelters and they now have to have 'rescues' for these breeds. People aren't being up front about all that is involved in responsible ownership of an LGD. THAT...is what we breeders must always be honest about....

And I know contracts will always be with us, I just choose not to use them. If I'm putting dogs out there who attack people then I better stop breeding dogs. So far I have not and don't think I will be as temperament is one of my big concerns in my breeding stock. And there is no way in the world you can control how someone brings that pup up - THAT is the bottom line guys....and if it is their bad raising up practices that causes a dog to attack someone, sorry....but you can't prevent that, you can only pray it does not happen to you if you as a responsible breeder have done all the right things and not made false promises to people or fibbed about what they are getting into. Also why I am such a hard ass on selling some of my harder temperamented dogs to just anyone. I grill them about their previous dog experiences (if any) and I flat won't sell a Kangal or Boz to anyone I even have the slightest doubt over their capacity to control and own a dog of this nature. Too risky. I tell them to go elsewhere or consider a less intense breed.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Just to let everyone know. I paid full price for Boomer. The breeder and I have talked about allowing me to bred Boomer. She stated "if" I get Boomer fixed by 7 months she would reimburse me 200.00.
Ziggy is not Bred quality. I will keep my word about getting Ziggy fixed. Due to he is a runt and the breeder and I talked and I promised her I wouldnt bred him. She asked me if I would be interested in breding Boomer. I said, "Yes" then "No" then I told her I wanted to wait till they were more mature before getting them fixed. I sent her all the information I found on fixing them too early. 
I am okay with not getting a 200.00 rebate on Boomer because I did not get him fixed within 7 months. However I would like to have his registration papers. She was never going to give me papers on Ziggy because he was not full price.

Her and I talked about this. She was the one that suggested that I possibly be a breeder with Boomer. I was uncertain due to I am new to these dogs and my main concern and still is that they gaurd my sheep. Well now that I have taught them well with the help of everyone here. I am thinking of keeping Boomer intact again and maybe MAYBE breding him with another owners Maremma just so I can get a couple of more males for the farm. I am certain I do not want two intact males. Ziggy will be fixed. I will keep my word.
I gave her my vet's number she can call anytime and ask my vet anything about the dogs I gave him permission to discuss them with her. He also knows that I have concerns about them getting fixed at a early age.


BTW: I am a woman of my word, these dogs mean the world to me. And the Breeder is the most kind, lovely, caring person that I can only hope to acheive her kind of kindness. I would'nt want her ever to think a bad thought about me. She is a sweetheart.
*I just want you breeders to know *that some people like me, dont have all the information needed or learned until you actually have the dogs that you want and then the issues arise and you investigate more to make a clearer discision.
I feel bad that I have had a long learning curve, but I need to do what is best for my boys. And I want and need to keep her informed of what is going on. That's the only way I feel I can be upfront with her is to keep the lines of communication open, so she can know what I am doing and why. Does this make any sense?


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

I knew you knew the answer to your questions. You just had to type it out so it was clear.

As they say the devils in the details, and I think you are fine. The "breeders" ramble sometimes-it's great to see what others are doing and discuss the issues in the dog world. Given the details of the arrangement I don't see why that breeder wouldn't do something about the papers for boomer, since he will be intact & you won't bet getting your discount back.

HF


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Fowler said:


> I feel bad that I have had a long learning curve, but I need to do what is best for my boys. And I want and need to keep her informed of what is going on. That's the only way I feel I can be upfront with her is to keep the lines of communication open, so she can know what I am doing and why. Does this make any sense?


I think you are worrying too much about things you don't have to worry about. You paid for the dogs. They are yours. You do what is best for your dogs and your family. It is nobody else's business.
I'm glad your dogs are doing well. I personally wouldn't give the whole thing another thought, and I would find a different breeder in the future, but that is just me.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

A dog is killed in a shelter every eight seconds in North America. That is 7 dogs every minute. Unless you are a breeder then spaying and neutering is the humane way. We have spayed and neutered all of our animals and have never had a problem with growth or personality development or with the actual surgery. The most important thing is to have a very competent vet.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

emdeengee said:


> A dog is killed in a shelter every eight seconds in North America. That is 7 dogs every minute. Unless you are a breeder then spaying and neutering is the humane way. We have spayed and neutered all of our animals and have never had a problem with growth or personality development or with the actual surgery. The most important thing is to have a very competent vet.


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

emdeengee said:


> A dog is killed in a shelter every eight seconds in North America. That is 7 dogs every minute. Unless you are a breeder then spaying and neutering is the humane way. We have spayed and neutered all of our animals and have never had a problem with growth or personality development or with the actual surgery. The most important thing is to have a very competent vet.


It still surprizes me when people on this site buy into Animal Rights/HSUS propaganda, geuss I expect homesteader types to be more aware of of the Animal Rights agenda. Most shelter statistics these days are put out there by the HSUS or the ASPCA, and aren't really reliable. What percentage of those dogs are terminally ill, unadoptable, black and over 45 lbs, and the big one, pit bull/mixes. So if there's so many millions of adoptable dogs why are dogs being imported into the country by rescues, why are there shelters struggling to keep their doors open, why are southern puppies being shipped up to northern shelters all the time? I can go on and on. Key word here is 'adoptable', and also just how reliable is the agency claiming the '7 dogs a minute' statistics, if its any of the big AR groups its been proven that they pad their numbers.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

Not spaying or neutering does NOT contribute to the pet overpopulation problem. Irresponsible owners do. I have two unspayed dogs. Neither have had an unplanned litter and they are 9 and 11 years old.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Honorine said:


> It still surprizes me when people on this site buy into Animal Rights/HSUS propaganda, geuss I expect homesteader types to be more aware of of the Animal Rights agenda. Most shelter statistics these days are put out there by the HSUS or the ASPCA, and aren't really reliable. What percentage of those dogs are terminally ill, unadoptable, black and over 45 lbs, and the big one, pit bull/mixes. So if there's so many millions of adoptable dogs why are dogs being imported into the country by rescues, why are there shelters struggling to keep their doors open, why are southern puppies being shipped up to northern shelters all the time? I can go on and on. Key word here is 'adoptable', and also just how reliable is the agency claiming the '7 dogs a minute' statistics, if its any of the big AR groups its been proven that they pad their numbers.


Lots of us a VERY aware of the animal rights agenda.
But an LGD mixed with just about anything is going to give you something that's pretty much unadoptable. How do you know it's not off breeding a pit or something black?

I've never heard of dogs being imported into the country by rescues - do you have a link?
Yes, they are moved from south to north. That's because in the south there's a nasty dog overpopulation problem - mostly because people don't fix. When a program comes up that funds low-cost spay and neuter and spreads information, trust me, it makes a dent.

Want to help me find homes for 5 "adoptable" dogs/pups? You can see the pups and Smiley on the pet forum. There's an overpopulation problem _here_.

Please remember this is a BIG country and just because there isn't a problem where you live - doesn't mean there isn't a problem.
Also, LGDs are not pets or treated like pets. If you can keep your lab from having a litter - hooray! I bet you don't have that lab out on 30 acres and are assuming it doesn't get out because it's there during morning and evening chores. And lets hope your fence will keep someone _else's_ 120 lbs of horny male OUT.


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