# Interesting take on Honey Bee Decline



## bobp (Mar 4, 2014)

I know a bee keeper who appears to be highly successful with his bees, he runs 3-4 brood boxes deep, has the most active, fully populated, colonies I've ever seen.........and he NEVER feeds them, anything.....ever..... NEVER uses chemicals of any kind......the on only mite treatment he uses is a 2 pound powderd sugar treatment with a flour sifter twice a year, right down the top of the hive....

He doesn't lose many hives, splits regularly.....

He runs a little black Russian cross bee, that would rather not have visitors, they'll let you know at quite a distance sometimes too...they're more aggressive than anything I've dealt with or seen.......BUT.......they survive....year after year..
.they survive....

His theory is over the last 30-40 years humans have intentionally bred honeybees to be more and more docile.....and in the process bred out survival instincts.....ect

I'm not sure if hes right but I personally had trouble getting bees to survive a winter, until I looked around and found another guy who would sell me some of the Russians.....they survived the winter with zero interference from me, no feed period, and I got 4 strong splits from this hive this spring......all are doing awesome...
Without purchased queens....

I'm unclear on what's going on with the wide spread declines but there appears to be some sense to this therory.....

Chemicals are often blamed....but remember in the 60s, 70s, early 80s, farmers used some pretty nasty chemicals that later were outlawed.....and the beekeepers of the day didn't have near the trouble we are having now........I remember my great Uncle having pallets and pallets of bees around his orchards......he never had any issues with surviving winters ect.......
Who knows...?


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## RonTgottagoat (Feb 27, 2014)

Interesting. I’ve heard a similar thing in regards to defensive bees being better at surviving. The club I attend is run by a guy who has lots of feral hives from cutouts etc. he doesn’t feed or treat and has good overwintering. I stopped doing feeding last year when my strong hives decimated my splits. I fought with wether to treat my bees and opted not to treat. My two original hives I bought as nucs overwintered well and I split em. I caught a couple swarms this year as well. I’m hoping that this works out


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## RonTgottagoat (Feb 27, 2014)

I think I read that the Russian hybrid bees were produced at LSU with the idea of there varroa resistance. That the OG Russian strain bees survived with varroa (I think it started in Asia). I think that the problem affecting bees now is really varroa mites and the associated virus’. It seems that a lot of mite issues can be avoided by giving brood breaks as a natural treatment We will see in time. One theory on treating or not treating is that on both sides of the issue there will be some colony losses. In my mind it makes sense to let the bees be bees and sort it out. I caught a swarm from my buddies bee tree this year. Those bees have been in this tree for at least the 17 years he’s had his land throwing swarms every year(he’s told me) with zero help. There is something to that. I’m thinking local bees are the best bees. They are doing it already not being ‘nursed’ just living. Sorry to drift your thread so far but it’s slow here and I’ve been jonesing to talk bees with somebody


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## RonTgottagoat (Feb 27, 2014)

There is a man about a mile away has a bunch of Russian hives. I’ll have to go chat him up more about his bees and there overwintering. I have heard Russian bees are a bit ornery.


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## bobp (Mar 4, 2014)

Yes they can be pretty hot.....but I can live with that, in lieu of perpetually purchasing splits yearly.....


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## RonTgottagoat (Feb 27, 2014)

If they survive better I could live with that too. It’s a bummer to lose hives even beyond the $$$ outlay. I’m hoping I can become sustainable in my bee yard and absorb winter loss through doing splits etc. I’m really interested in trying to raise some queens to help with this as well. But I’m pretty sure I missed my window for this year


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Isn’t it irresponsible to purposely bring a breed that could be dangerous to the unsuspecting in the wild?


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## bobp (Mar 4, 2014)

Dangerous? We're not talking about "killer Bees" 
Don't misconstrue the willingness of them to get hot in defense of their homes. 
Russians have been here many many years...

My Russians are 50' from my upper feild edge, where I regurally work, 6 acres of grapes, raspberries, blueberries, and blackberries....

There's a couple of takeaways here....
Mainly that it appears we have over managed the world's honey bee population.....breeding them away from the natural protective instincts, is one.....stop and ask your self why? Why do this.....where's the value....?
So we can work them without as much protection on, or keep them in backyards with kids and pets.....what's the cost for this change?
Greed driven hive management is another. I've seen very few operations that allow more than 2 brood boxes, most hold them to one, 3-4 allow the queens more space, stronger colonies, more replacement bees, more foragers, ect..(which to my simple mind, seems counterintuitive for folks wanting to harvest honey, bigger hives, more foragers =more honey?? Guess they missed that math somewhere).....then after you restrict the colony to a single brood box, you get greedy and split it, (to prevent swarming, or make a sale, or?) which makes it even harder to keep the numbers up to allow for survival.....then we hit em with chemicals that are supposed to help with mites and beetles, ......then greedily take what honey they were able to put up, sometimes not leaving them any for winter, and force them to live on processed sugar, and Patties from lord knows where......
AND then we wonder WHY they die out....CCD? How about human error?

I had the docile breeds, I tried, I lost many many hives, I had little black bee feral colonies come rob them clean, their defenders just let em come and go? Aren't they supposed to smell the difference between a colony member and a non member? Who knows?

And how about the beekeepers who've discovered the not so new, but explosive, and lucrative, market of selling splits.....beekeepers who NEVER let the hives make honey, they just split as many times as possible and feed them manufactured feed all year long? For years and years...Who knows what all damage this will do.....how many generations of this behavior before something else pops up......
Then we move em all over the country, with no thought towards diseases ect....

So am I willing to live with Bees who dont need nor want my involvement, who will self clean, who will keep house keeping bees working, who get hot when I do have to mess with them, or when I do a managed split? Am I willing to work with PPE?
Sorry for the rant.....BUT You bet......I'm good with it.....


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

OH MY GAWD another grow up man aftaid of a tiny little bees. Probabvly calls yellow Jackets a bee too.

 Al


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I'll gladly sell him some yellow jacket "honey bees".
He'll just need to get them out of my porch light.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I raise all my own queens. Have a couple yards just for that, one yard is where I set the nucs of queen cells made up from grafts from colonys that have been made up from wild bee swarms (out of trees and buildings.). the second yard about a mile away I have hives full of drone comb made up of drones from the wild swarm bees also.
We loose some hives in the winter but so far our normal loss has been no higher that 30%.

Raise queens in the spring for increases raise queens in the middle of summer to replace old queens in the fall.

 Al


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## siberian (Aug 23, 2011)

Not to get off topic, but toad to the conversation about Russians. We have 17 from a Russian breeder. Sometimes I wonder if the terms aware and angry (hot) are not used wrong. Our Russians are definitely more noticeably aware of when we are out there. They are out and around us. But not any meaner or aggressive than any other bee yards that we have.


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## bobp (Mar 4, 2014)

I truly don't believe they're mean, or aggressive....
To me when I say they're hot.... I mean they tolerate less from me without objecting....lol...I've had them head butting me at 100yds, (to be fair it was in the first couple of days after I split them).....


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## siberian (Aug 23, 2011)

bobp said:


> I truly don't believe they're mean, or aggressive....
> To me when I say they're hot.... I mean they tolerate less from me without objecting....lol...I've had them head butting me at 100yds, (to be fair it was in the first couple of days after I split them).....


Are you using russian mated queens? Have heard it is better to keep a solid russian line.


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## bobp (Mar 4, 2014)

My original would have been....the others are open mated


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