# Steam driven DC generators?



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Anyone know of a manufacturer of small-scale steam turbines? It occured to me that the burning of wood, turning a small steam turbine, turning a DC generator, would be a good way to generate electricity in the winter.
Now I dont want to re-invent the wheel here (unless I have to!), or spend thousands of dollars on a project that wont work, so if anyone knows of any resources they could direct me to , that would be great. It seems most info I can find online pertains to large scale, industrial type turbines. I was really thinking more of something I could plumb into the woodburner, just to provide supplemental battery charging during the long, cold winter nights. I realize a wind turbine might be a better answer, but I live on a relatively low-elevation tract of land, surrounded by trees...


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I have allways been intrigued by steam power.
One year at the MREA fair in Amherst WI several guys and a couple trailers of really nice steam piston engines were being live run and demonstrated. . . . WOW . .

Many folks crowded around including my self.

The biggest point I got from a long time steam nerd (very friendly guy) was that ---steam takes a goodly amount of attention. One of those single cylinder engines could\would power a good size generator\alternator.
Keeping the speed proper and tending the fire--steam pressure was\is a very on going thing.

In other words there is no "set it and forget it" controls.
-----for while your in bed for a few hours----

(perhaps theres some auto controls around - - - -but then there goes the price tag . .up . .up)

fun to dream about


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## Highground (Jan 22, 2003)

I seem to remember an article about a guy making one out of a 20 lb. propane cylinder. I'll see if I can find it.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Steam is something that should require a lot of care. Pressurized steam can be very dangerous.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Agreed the steam fitter's trade is certified and checked often for a reason. A superheated DWH is enough to level a house if it explodes so something making steam on purpose requires specialized knowlege.


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## scott (May 11, 2002)

http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/stmpwr.htm

http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/aeindex.htm#steam


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## Allan Mistler (Jun 1, 2004)

In March of 2002 Wayne Hicks published an article in the SierraTimes where he adapted an old truck turbocharger to be driven by steam. The shaft connected to a 200 Amp automotive alternator at a two or three to one ratio (the Turbo spun very fast). Anyway, a google search has merely turned up reference to it but no additional detail. I had a copy of the article for the longest time but must have disposed of it as I freqently do just before I need it.


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## blufford (Nov 23, 2004)

Allan Mistler said:


> In March of 2002 Wayne Hicks published an article in the SierraTimes where he adapted an old truck turbocharger to be driven by steam. The shaft connected to a 200 Amp automotive alternator at a two or three to one ratio (the Turbo spun very fast). Anyway, a google search has merely turned up reference to it but no additional detail. I had a copy of the article for the longest time but musr have disposed of it as I freqently do just before I need it.


Hi Allan, Heres a link to that article. Hope it works.


http://www.sierratimes.com/02/03/04/junkscience.htm


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## Allan Mistler (Jun 1, 2004)

> Hi Allan, Heres a link to that article. Hope it works.
> 
> 
> http://www.sierratimes.com/02/03/04/junkscience.htm


Thanks Blufford, It's in my computer again where it won't be deleted!


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Excellent link, this is what I was looking for... I am envisioning a closed-loop system, where a few gallons of water would turn to steam, then recondense... this is a very interesting link. 
I starting thinking about this whole thing after we here in the St. Louis area had a record-breaking ice storm in early November. The amount of tree damage was awesome, with something like 200,000 people without power for days or even weeks. I was out of work at the time, and spent my 'free-time' loading up my truck with free firewood. I probably gathered a 3 year supply in a month or so. Not bad for burning less than $20 worth of petrol and biodiesel...


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## crafty2002 (Aug 23, 2006)

Jim-mi, I was a boiler maker welder on power plants, on and off for about 30 years, but I had never been very intrigued with steam power, "UNTIL NOW" lol. 
I guess I just looked at the way a huge boiler was built and never thought you could down size one this way. I mean the boilers I worked on had 250 foot water walls surrounding the supper heat tubes and a steam drum that you could walk in. On large plants like that you have a huge steam turbine, then the steam goes through a preheater heats the new water entering the boiler before entering the condenser.
They are just so complicated, I never thought about being able to build one this small.
I am glad you brought it up.
Greg, I have always been intrigued with the idea of building a water wheel to make electricity, but you sparked an interest in me with this idea. 
Thanks Allen and blufford for that site. That is truely interesting.
I already heat with wood and it seems to me you could use the expired steam to heat the house after it leaves the turbine, before it reaches the liquid state again. 
I'm disabled but can still work a few hours most days if I just take it easy and I am always coming up with some off the wall project anyway.
Greg, I think when I said you sparked some interest in me about this, I lied. I think you started a fire, lol. 
Thanks abunch for this one. I have been thinking about building an outside boiler for heat anyway, so it seems some more studying and designing is needed now. Right now I need to go finish welding up a set of shelves I am making. I will keep a close eye on this thread. 
Dennis


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## TechGuy (Oct 25, 2006)

greg273 said:


> Anyone know of a manufacturer of small-scale steam turbines? It occured to me that the burning of wood, turning a small steam turbine, turning a DC generator, would be a good way to generate electricity in the winter.
> Now I dont want to re-invent the wheel here (unless I have to!), or spend thousands of dollars on a project that wont work, so if anyone knows of any resources they could direct me to , that would be great. It seems most info I can find online pertains to large scale, industrial type turbines. I was really thinking more of something I could plumb into the woodburner, just to provide supplemental battery charging during the long, cold winter nights. I realize a wind turbine might be a better answer, but I live on a relatively low-elevation tract of land, surrounded by trees...


Try:
http://www.pioneertelephonecoop.com/~carlich/RSE/RSEhome.html (Reliable Steam)

and:
http://www.tinypower.com/store2.php...ck&PHPSESSID=2722929471e01908c57b6a8940da681f


I believe there are other suppliers. Try searching for "Marine Steam Engines". Alternatively, you might be able to find a early 20th century or late 19th century real steam engine. I believe there are several web sites that sell them as antiques. Ebay may also be a source.

As far as small commerical Turbines, they sometimes appear on ebay. Usually prices between $9K and $20K, used. But they generally require a lot of steam to operate.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

crafty2002, . .wow . . .I have trouble comprehending a unit of the size you describe.
I run out of fingers trying to count up the amount of power that thing could\can make . . . !!
LOL . . .the greenies would love to know how much coal (assuming) that thing would eat. . . .??

And now back to our "Backyard steam machine" program brought to you by your friendly neighborhood coal mine.


lol


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Jim-mi said:


> crafty2002, . .wow . . .I have trouble comprehending a unit of the size you describe.
> I run out of fingers trying to count up the amount of power that thing could\can make . . . !!
> LOL . . .the greenies would love to know how much coal (assuming) that thing would eat. . . .??
> 
> ...


The biggest unit where I work puts out 340 megwatts. All four units together put out just under 800 megawatts. Enough to power every house in Wyoming. The largest that I know of is in the 1200 megwatt range. Since these things are so large with very little down time it'll take a lot of windgenny's to replace them.


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

I think you'll find that small scale wood fired boilers - steam turbines to create electricity are not very practical/efficient. Most of the energy from the wood is converted to waste heat - i.e. you'll need mountains of wood. If you were running a canning factory or a greenhouse operation, you may be able to use all that extra heat.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i wonder if you could use a car radiator to capture waste heat for hot water heating?


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

OntarioMan said:


> I think you'll find that small scale wood fired boilers - steam turbines to create electricity are not very practical/efficient. Most of the energy from the wood is converted to waste heat - i.e. you'll need mountains of wood. If you were running a canning factory or a greenhouse operation, you may be able to use all that extra heat.


Or radiant floor heat, or baseboard heating.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

OntarioMan said:


> I think you'll find that small scale wood fired boilers - steam turbines to create electricity are not very practical/efficient. Most of the energy from the wood is converted to waste heat - i.e. you'll need mountains of wood. If you were running a canning factory or a greenhouse operation, you may be able to use all that extra heat.


 Well, I was thinking the 'waste heat' would actually be heating my home as well as turning a generator, so it wouldnt be 'waste heat' at all. I am envisioning using this only during the winter anyway. The turbocharger link posted is very cool. Thanks again!


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Right if I have a furnace chewing through fuel [ either: oil, or wood pellets, or corn, or coal, or propane] and it is hot all winter long either heating air for forced-air circ, or heating water for circ; then why not use that heat source first for making steam and thus power?


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

Think on a much larger scale - you'll be able to heat your home and many many more homes with all that waste heat. 

Somewhere on the net are the number expressed in cords of wood per week required for a wood fired boiler used to drive a small steam turbine - its truly staggering!



greg273 said:


> Well, I was thinking the 'waste heat' would actually be heating my home as well as turning a generator, so it wouldnt be 'waste heat' at all. I am envisioning using this only during the winter anyway. The turbocharger link posted is very cool. Thanks again!


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i have seen some pretty small steam engines. i am not sure of the horsepower generated by the small ones i have seen. perhaps we should start there. how much horsepower is required to run a small generator that can power a battery bank for a reasonably sized setup? i know that is a vague question and every system is different as personal requirements vary, but i think it is a good place to start.

what do you want to power? will you use battery storage or do you want a big ac generator with a power shunt to dump excess energy? 

how much horsepower will be required to run the generator you choose?

what is the smallest steam engine that will power that generator?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Those small steam one cylinder engines are capable of an amazing amount of torque . . . .very easy for them to spin a alternator\generator.

But like OntarioMan says, It takes an awful lot of "fuel" to generate the steam.


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## Micahn (Nov 19, 2005)

Here is a link to one that could work. It can run at up to 5hp (should be enough to run a small generator) And runs off some what low steam pressure. For the plans and parts $110 not to bad at all.


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## crafty2002 (Aug 23, 2006)

Jim-mi said:


> crafty2002, . .wow . . .I have trouble comprehending a unit of the size you describe.
> I run out of fingers trying to count up the amount of power that thing could\can make . . . !!
> LOL . . .the greenies would love to know how much coal (assuming) that thing would eat. . . .??
> 
> And now back to our "Backyard steam machine" program brought to you by your friendly neighborhood coal mine.lol


Jim-mi, they have a railroad track behind the units that are constantly bringing in coal. They pull through with a train and one car at a time is unkooked on this contraption, have no idea what it is called but each car is turned compleatly over, one at a time. It dumps it out and the cold rides a conveyor to the top of a cold mountain, where it then rides another conveyor to pulverisers which turns it into a fine cold dust which is blown into the boilers and it burns just about like oil in a gun type furnace does. You can tell by the way the boiler tubes look when it is shut down that the flame from these things shoot 50', and maybe more from each burner. 
The pent house level on the last one I worked on building was 434 feet high and the smoke stake was 880'. The smoke stakes have an open room at the base of them that are probably 75' wiide. 
The webs on the I-beams that hold the whole boiler up are over 6' tall with a thickness of 4 1/2 ". 
I can't remember exactly now, it has been so long ago, but I welded on one joint on one of those things for something like a month, or it may have been two months and it had to be X-rayed every single day. You use a lot of 4 1/2" grinding whells on them also, lol. You really do. After each pass you grind the edges to make sure there is not even the smallest pocket of slag there before you start the next pass. 
White-wolf probably knows what I am talking about when I say you weld it with a ball bat. I guess that is a nick name for a 7/32" 7018 welding rod. 
One those I-beams and 2" plate steel for off shore oil drilling rigs is the only place I ever used them because they are so big, but they sure put a lot of metal in, in a hurry, lol. 

Any way, back to the smaller units, lol. I found a good site on the torbocharger steam engines. It's www. turbosteam.com//st.eng.org 
It has some good drawings and a lot of details.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

crafty, thanks . . . thats interesting Yes I've seen those coal unloaders . . impressive.

Like it or not the coal fired monsters are going to be around for a long while . . . .because of the hugh amount of coal available.


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

First let me say I know nothing about alternative energy or anything about steam power, except it is a cool idea.

Let me throw this idea out, if I may:

Instead of using an old propane tank, why not replace it with an old pressure cooker?

I would think that the side walls would be stronger than a propane tank, and therefore much safer.

I would think that a person could tap an on/off valve in the top or body, and because the PC has a pressure gauge, you would be able to regulate the pressure of the steam inside, and know when to release the steam into the turbine.

We already know that the walls of a PC can withstand direct flame...my grandmother canned with one on a gas stove.

Again, I know nothing about this stuff. This thought dawned on me today.

Clove


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## John Hill (May 12, 2002)

The safest type of boiler I think is the style used in the early steam cars. They used petrol or kerosene burners to heat a flash steam generator. This is basically a strong metal tube arranged in a coil or somewhat and heated, liquid water is pumped in one end of the tube under quite high pressure, once in the tube the water quickly turns to steam and is expelled out the other end of the tube to drive the engine or whatever. The advantage of this system is that there is very little stored steam and explosions if they occur will not be significant, nothing like a pressure cooking bursting for example. They also produce steam quickly.


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## Dahc (Feb 14, 2006)

There is a way to overcome some maintenance and safety issues concerning steam engines generating electricity, at the cost of some horsepower.

http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/stirling_generator.htm

Just an idea...

This guy has a sterling engine set up to push a duel rotor permanent magnet alternator (made by him of course). The duel rotor set up has no cogging effect and therefore requires a lot less power to turn.

No boiler, no water running dry, no pressure valves, no large fires... etc... A stirling engine doesn't run off of heat per say, it uses a temperature differential to expand a gas enclosed in a double chamber. The gas is heated and expands to the other, cooler side and in the process pushes a crank. The gas then cools and settles back into the larger chamber to be heated again.

This is a better explaination:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/stirling-engine.htm


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