# YOUR TAKE on PHARO CATTLE COMPANY?



## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

As I understand it, a Cattleman(or Woman?) based in Colorado named Kit Pharo has developed a network of cattle farms who raise and develop beef cattle with his/her unique genetics and frame sizing theories. The Pharo Cattle Company markets and sells many breeding bulls and breeding semen all geared towards (and I quote from his newsletter here)"..."cattle that can excel in a low-input, grass-based environment"....
To learn more about Pharo Cattle company, .... www.PharoCattle.com ...
I guess the basic DEBATE is their thick, easy fleshing moderate size cows verses Large Frame Beef Cows. YOUR TAKE???????????????


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

I don't specialize in any special genetics, and mine are not large framed grazers, that do fatten off of pasture with little input. I don't grain them at all. It isn't hard to find low input beef cattle, that are small framed. Find a few crosses, that look like herefords, they usually have good grames, with low input.




Jeff


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Up North, I am acquainted with Pharo cattle and I feel that he has/had a good thing going. Pharo's recent flooding of the market with frequent bull sales acquired from various sources are questionable in my mind. He is moving so fast that he cannot have control and I feel that he cannot produce the volume of bulls he is selling with confidence as there seems, on the surface, that nothing is culled that can pump viable semen. All the bulls he sales cannot be as good as purported.


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

agmantoo said:


> Up North, I am acquainted with Pharo cattle and I feel that he has/had a good thing going. Pharo's recent flooding of the market with frequent bull sales acquired from various sources are questionable in my mind. He is moving so fast that he cannot have control and I feel that he cannot produce the volume of bulls he is selling with confidence as there seems, on the surface, that nothing is culled that can pump viable semen. All the bulls he sales cannot be as good as purported.


Interesting insight. So do you prefer Large Frame Brood Cows or moderate(medium) sized brood cows ????????? Which do you feel most profitable over 10 year average??? Appreciate your input.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Kit Pharo is correct with the size, medium frames are the way to go. I also think that you need cattle that are bred to thrive on the type of forage you are going to provide. I have a bull that cannot maintain body condition on the same feed that my cattle thrive on. The reason the bull has problems IMO is that he and his parentage are pampered animals from the producer. I was going to buy a Pharo bull until the origin of the seed stock started coming from off Kit Pharo's farm/ranch.
PS...a medium to small frame animal that can thrive off rotational grazing is definitely the most profitable animal that I can grow. I just sold a small load of feeders calves and I was most pleased.


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

Agman glad to see we were not the only ones to have this experience with bulls. I believe you are dead right on the money that bulls raised in confined situations where the feed is brought to them will not adapt to harvesting their own feed- even when feed is available in ample supply.
We primarily use Registered Ayrshire bulls for cleanup and a few heifers. As they are a smaller numbers breed, we bought bulls that were available with genetic background we desired from Breeders who did not raise cattle on grass. This was a costly mistake. They fall apart, lose condition, go timid and don't breed. This while the ones raised here that start grazing at 400 lbs. are holding condition and doing well. So, I guess we will have to retain bulls from our very best cows, and seek out bulls raised in a grazing environment in the future.
***Glad to see you beef producers receiving these prices! Keeps the enthusiasm up when gritting your teeth thru some of the tough parts of the business. 
Hope we hear the reasons some folks prefer Large Frame Beef Cows.


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## milkinpigs (Oct 4, 2005)

That's the reason I'm interested in the NZ bulls. Beef producers here use the large frame bulls because steers sold locally will be going to the feedlots from the panhandle on up to Nebraska. It's simply a matter of producing what sells. Cattle like you have been looking at will sell but they are docked heavily.It's like grass dairying;you lose butterfat but still clear more money than a drylot.


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

milkinpigs said:


> That's the reason I'm interested in the NZ bulls. Beef producers here use the large frame bulls because steers sold locally will be going to the feedlots from the panhandle on up to Nebraska. It's simply a matter of producing what sells. Cattle like you have been looking at will sell but they are docked heavily.It's like grass dairying;you lose butterfat but still clear more money than a drylot.


MilkinPigs if I understand you correctly you are saying Large Frame Beef Cows produce higher profit animals to sell in commercial feedlot market, while moderate size cows produce more profitable cattle for direct market or specialty beef sales? Makes sense to me. Be interesting to hear from someone who has tried both production models in the same environment for a comparison.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Your large framed beef cattle will sell for more in a market, than the smaller framed beef cattle. Simply because those large framed beef cattle get more attention, and people are willing to spend more to get those, and they also feel they can make more because they are getting more meat on the hoof. While probably true, they spend more raising them due to their maintainence.


The smaller framed beef cattle, steers that are 1.5 years and weigh 1100-1200lbs are easy to sell to a consumer directly. We did this, and you do make more. We sell ours for 2.00/lb hanging weight or more. You can't get that much per lb selling through the market. Since I feed grass to them, the input is ridiculously low. As I said earlier, my beef cattle aren't large framed, and aren't any special genetics. But they can produce calves, which do become beef.


Jeff


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## Sprout (Dec 28, 2005)

I like big framed Angus cattle so large or small you tell me. They fall on the medium small side for total beef breeds but large for their own breed.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

I want a mature cow that by the time she is 4 years old with her second calf she weighs 1150 lbs +-.


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## Sprout (Dec 28, 2005)

Well my angus girl's got that beat. She weighed 1,500+ at two years old.


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

Scratching my head thinking 3 1500 lb cows =4500 lbs. on hoof eating grass or 4 1150 lb cows =4600 lbs. beef on hoof eating grass.
! Begs the question which combo yields most efficient use of said grass?
Which combo produces most gross dollars in product sold?
Which combo require least dollars in labor at calving season?
Since producers responding are running cattle on grass based systems, 
then which combo does least damage to sod&plants when ground is wet?
Which combo incurs highest breeding expense?


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

JeffNY
We sell ours for 2.00/lb hanging weight or more. You can't get that much per lb selling through the market. Since I feed grass to them said:


> Jeff if it ain't broke don't fix it, Eh? ,LOL.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

UpNorth, here is my take. I am in the cattle business on the scale I am to make money. I realize that really what I am selling is the productivity of my pastures. The production of the pasture is a result of many factors but an acre, regardless of where it is, will produce X amount of forage depending on these factors. To maximize the production/profit from the acreage I must convert that to saleable meat as economically as possible. Would you agree with this last sentence? To maximize the output of each acre, I need animals that can thrive, reproduce and be sought after by buyers while requiring the minimun input costs. It is a given the Angus calves bring a premium at the local sales barn. Therefore I produce black calves. Personally I like colored animals. I sell feeder calves in the 500 to 550 lb range since these animals will transport cheaper to the feed lots and a premium exists for this weight. A smaller cow requires less forage than a larger cow therefore I can have a higher head count. With a higher headcount I can have more calves. With Angus there are almost no calving problems so the headcount has no bearing on vet expenses. I have never had a vet to my farm! With the full utilization of the forage from my pastures I can market more pounds of meat per acre with the smaller cows. The entire discussion comes down the how can you get the most pounds of meat, at the best price to me per pound, to the buyer at the least costs. People sometimes confuse the price per head and the price per pound. A large calf may sell for more money per head since it weighs more. However, the pounds of meat produced per acre are greater from the smaller cows and the greater number of head of calves produced will offset the additional weight carried by the larger calf significantly. I have difficulty conveying this information to others and often I feel that after stating the information the listener seems to be thinking "what is he trying to tell me?" It is like trying to explain rotational grazing to a person that has fed hay all his life and they ask "what do you do when the grass is all gone?" It all come down to management, be it management of the pasture, management of the animals health, management of the input expenses, management of a product the customer wants, management of marketing and finally management of the profits.


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## Terry W (Mar 10, 2006)

agmantoo said:


> I realize that really what I am selling is the productivity of my pastures. The production of the pasture is a result of many factors but an acre, regardless of where it is, will produce X amount of forage depending on these factors. .


 And you have done a very good job of explaining WHY people need to understand "the rule of 10%" as it is called in the environmental sciences-- 10% of the sun's energy that hits a plant will get converted into plant material, (primary productivity), 10% of the plant material that gets eaten will get converted into material for whatever ate it-- and so on down the line. Making sure your soil is healthy-- with nutrients in the right balance, not permitting overgrazing, maximizes the primary productivity-- which in turn, maximizes the end product-- the amount of meat that leaves that area.

When considering the frame sizes of cattle, look at something housewives USED to be aware of-- and this informatin centers around turkeys, but can be applied to any meat source-- Once a turkey hits 10 pounds( BBW__ the commercial turkey)- his bone structure is NOT going to get any larger-- any extra poundage is meat--so, a 20 pouind turkey, at cost per pound, will be less expensive than he was at 15 pounds, and that would have been a better price per pound than he would have been at 10 pounds. Taking a large framed cow, and having to "input" nutrients to grow that frame produces less "meat" for the money.A smaller framed cow will reach it's maximum skeletal size a lot sooner, therefore allowing the extra meat to be produced earlier in it's life, making it more profitable to sell at a younger age... Just like in grocery shopping, it is "Price per unit" that one must look at-- I have found better "deals" by purchasing several smaller packages than by automatically reaching for the "buy one-get one" bargain that is this weeks current hook in the advertising flyer..


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

agmantoo said:


> UpNorth, here is my take. I am in the cattle business on the scale I am to make money. I realize that really what I am selling is the productivity of my pastures. The production of the pasture is a result of many factors but an acre, regardless of where it is, will produce X amount of forage depending on these factors. To maximize the production/profit from the acreage I must convert that to saleable meat as economically as possible. Would you agree with this last sentence? To maximize the output of each acre, I need animals that can thrive, reproduce and be sought after by buyers while requiring the minimun input costs. It is a given the Angus calves bring a premium at the local sales barn. Therefore I produce black calves. Personally I like colored animals. I sell feeder calves in the 500 to 550 lb range since these animals will transport cheaper to the feed lots and a premium exists for this weight. A smaller cow requires less forage than a larger cow therefore I can have a higher head count. With a higher headcount I can have more calves. With Angus there are almost no calving problems so the headcount has no bearing on vet expenses. I have never had a vet to my farm! With the full utilization of the forage from my pastures I can market more pounds of meat per acre with the smaller cows. The entire discussion comes down the how can you get the most pounds of meat, at the best price to me per pound, to the buyer at the least costs. People sometimes confuse the price per head and the price per pound. A large calf may sell for more money per head since it weighs more. However, the pounds of meat produced per acre are greater from the smaller cows and the greater number of head of calves produced will offset the additional weight carried by the larger calf significantly. I have difficulty conveying this information to others and often I feel that after stating the information the listener seems to be thinking "what is he trying to tell me?" It is like trying to explain rotational grazing to a person that has fed hay all his life and they ask "what do you do when the grass is all gone?" It all come down to management, be it management of the pasture, management of the animals health, management of the input expenses, management of a product the customer wants, management of marketing and finally management of the profits.


Agman- VERY WELL PUT!!!
We are paid to convert plant matter into a form of nutrients human beings can utilize for their survival. The animals are the tools to do this with. It is the pounds of meat or milk produced per acre at the lowest cost possible that results in maximum net profit.
I see your position clearly.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Someone was comparing turkeys with cows. Remember bone weighs more than muscle, and a large framed animal will weigh more, because its frame being bone, weighs more. It might produce the same amount of meat, because its weight is in its frame.



Jeff


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

So, if smaller is better, how far do you go? For example, why not use lowline angus or crosses with them?

Hay bales have gotten bigger so there are fewer to handle, perhaps same with cattle? I would also think that some body parts like the brain are the same size regardless of frame size. So why have extra brains running around the pasture?


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## Sprout (Dec 28, 2005)

Up North said:


> Scratching my head thinking 3 1500 lb cows =4500 lbs. on hoof eating grass or 4 1150 lb cows =4600 lbs. beef on hoof eating grass.
> ! Begs the question which combo yields most efficient use of said grass?
> Which combo produces most gross dollars in product sold?
> Which combo require least dollars in labor at calving season?
> ...


I would say the three. Remember to factor out the guts, hide, and hoves that each head has before you get to the meaty part.


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

DJ in WA said:


> So, if smaller is better, how far do you go? For example, why not use lowline angus or crosses with them?
> 
> DJ I believe at least one of the bulls Kit Pharo offers is a lowline Angus.


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

DJ in WA said:


> So, if smaller is better, how far do you go? For example, why not use lowline angus or crosses with them?


It isn't the size, alone. It's also the efficiency of the animal. It's hard to find your best cow in a herd, but it's easy to find your worst. Just wait for a bad year to come along and cull the ones that have trouble keeping fit. Cull any cow that has difficulty birthing or settling, cull any cow whose calves don't gain enough. These are some of the suggestions given by Kit Pharo at our Grazer's conference.

He suggested we look for medium framed animals because they eat less and produce the same, 1 calf.

Also, if you sell your calves as feeder calves, you are aware that the highest prices always go to the lower weight calves. 300-400 lb Angus calves recently sold for $142 cw while 700-800 lb calves sold for $113. If you can support more mothers and sell more calves at higher prices per pound, putting many more calves in a trailer than with bigger calves, where does it not make sense to go smaller?

Kit Pharo also advocates a slightly different timing for calving and weaning that also puts more money in your pocket and reduces the amount of grass acreage you need.

You don't need to buy what he says 100% in order to see that he's got some pretty good ideas that you can use. Listen or read what he has to say and then use your own head.

Genebo
Paradise Farm


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## Hammer4 (Oct 13, 2005)

I was reading some good info regarding calving season recenlty, the author showed graphs that demonstrated that calving as close as possible to the longest day of the year allowed the cows to make use of the flourishing spring/summer forage to gain the nutrition they needed just before calving. He also had information that showed heifers born near the longest day of the year started cycling sooner to allow them to produce a calf close to their second birthday easier...let me see if I can find it.

Here it is: 

http://www.foothill.net/~ringram/cowgrass.htm

There was a lot of other info on nutrition and other stuff on that site as well.

http://www.foothill.net/~ringram/index.htm

Scroll down to the bottom and look for the links on:

Controlled Grazing
Nutrition
Low Stress Livestock Handling
Fencing

etc.

A lot of it was way over my head, especially the nutritional calculations, but I think I understood a lot of it.


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

Hammer4- The Elk, Moose, and Whitetail Deer seem to survive this way.
Funny how Human beings always think they are "SMARTER" than Mother Nature! Jeez how efficient would it be to submit to Mother Nature and her seasons rather than trying to impose our ideas on her.


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

I should mention that Kit Pharo offers a free newsletter for those interested in the topic of grass-based beef production. You may subscribe by calling 1-800-311-0995 or by ....... www.PharoCattle.com .......
As Genebo correctly states in the above post, you don't have to agree with all of his ideas to profit from some of them.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Anyone use Pharo bulls?


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Any of you that want smaller grass fed cattle, all you have to do is buy some range Herefords. They are smaller and can turn grass, or sticks, or tumbleweeds, into beef and they will bring you a calf every year.

They aren't as pretty as the show Herefords, but they should be readily available. Any area of the country that has cattle out fending for themselves on the rangeland will have them available.

Breed them to a low birth weight first calf heifer Angus bull and you'll get BWF cattle that bring Angus premium prices.

No need to sign up for someone else's program unless he has a way for his cattle to get a bigger price than equal cattle not in his program (which I seriously doubt)


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## BeltieX (Sep 26, 2015)

Pharo cattle is a niche market cattle. If you taking the calves to any sale barn, you'll losing $$ for having smaller feeder calves that won't grow big.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

BeltieX said:


> Pharo cattle is a niche market cattle. If you taking the calves to any sale barn, you'll losing $$ for having smaller feeder calves that won't grow big.


Really? A calf out of a 52-54" hip bull is a niche market? A whole lot of commercial producers are going to be devastated to learn they're just niche producers.

Pharo isn't doing anything revolutionary...his point is that smaller framed cows that produce fast growing calves and maintain condition are more efficient and therefore produce more profit is a pretty well accepted concept in the cattle world these days.


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## BeltieX (Sep 26, 2015)

Gravytrain said:


> Really? A calf out of a 52-54" hip bull is a niche market? A whole lot of commercial producers are going to be devastated to learn they're just niche producers.
> 
> Pharo isn't doing anything revolutionary...his point is that smaller framed cows that produce fast growing calves and maintain condition are more efficient and therefore produce more profit is a pretty well accepted concept in the cattle world these days.


Lot of commercial producers got burnt with his pharo cattle after the calves didn't do well at the sales. Their cattle are too small, need to be 4 frame and bigger.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

You want faster growing cattle that are doing great at market and are very hardy? Simmentals. What I've seen so far is amazing. They are bringing more at our local sales then angus. We bought a simmental bull to breed our angus. Then I bought 2 registered simmental hiefers. The calves are putting the angus calves to shame. By 110lbs on average. With the cost right now finishers want fast growing cattle. So fast this is the best I've seen that has a great bone to meat ratio.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

BeltieX said:


> Lot of commercial producers got burnt with his pharo cattle after the calves didn't do well at the sales. Their cattle are too small, need to be 4 frame and bigger.


I'll take your word for it on the dissatisfaction with Pharo's stock...although I frequent most of the cattle boards and haven't seen much, if any, grumbling. 

I will however vehemently disagree that larger framed brood stock equals more profit...whether we a talking about selling weaned calves, feeders, finishers or direct marketing beef.


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## BeltieX (Sep 26, 2015)

Gravytrain said:


> I'll take your word for it on the dissatisfaction with Pharo's stock...although I frequent most of the cattle boards and haven't seen much, if any, grumbling.
> 
> I will however vehemently disagree that larger framed brood stock equals more profit...whether we a talking about selling weaned calves, feeders, finishers or direct marketing beef.


4-5 frame British cows is what we need to meet the buyers requirements for feeder calves. Not these 2-3 framed cows (which Pharo cows are). Most cattle boards I am on are very dissatisfied with the calves from Pharo stock. With the current calf prices, I don't envy anyone with smaller framed feeders plus a dock on them. We tried a Pharo bull, ended up breeding backwards and shortest calves I ever had.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

Been 10 years since I posted on this thread. Time flies, and I have hopefully learned a few things.

I have semen from Pharo bulls. But I just have a few back yard cows on a few acres so don't want large cattle. And I don't use the salebarn. I had messed with lowline crosses but wanted something bigger.

Seems Pharo is picking up bulls from different places so not necessarily his stock. And when mixing different stock, lose consistency. I have gotten some calves out of Beral of Wye which he bought interest in. From black angus bulls I get white calves from British White cows.

I have a bit of a problem with his sales methods. He likes to make himself seem special and a "herd quitter", not following the status quo. With that in mind, a couple years ago I suggested that he offer some British White semen, and explained the problem with black cattle and heat stress. He replied that he didn't disagree with me, but cattlemen got killed at the salebarn when selling such cattle.

So basically he's saying you need to be status quo and do what the market tells you to do.

Funny that a few weeks ago he posted this article by experts that explains the benefits of smaller frame cattle and lighter colored cattle. So he will focus on the frame size and ignore the coat color and keep his lineup of black bulls.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0190052816300281

The other problem is variation. Buyers like uniformity. So if you breed your larger cattle to smaller framed bulls, you will have a range of size in the calves. He says about lowlines:
"By mating your 6-frame cows to a Lowline bull, you will be able to produce thick, easy-fleshing, 3-frame offspring &#8212; in just one generation. That saves years of time! The resulting 1100-pound momma cows are perfect for all environments."
&#12288;
Not that simple. It is not a math problem where you get the average of the two frame scores. A 6 frame cow bred to 0 frame bull will give you calves anywhere from 0 frame to 6 frame. And any 3 frame heifers you keep from those matings will now give calves of different sizes, as you have mystery genetics kicking around.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Thanks DJ. Pharo is a cattleman. He is articulate and a good writer. He is an exceptional marketer.

I am just getting started. I just got 10 Angus Plus bred heifers. They birth next spring.

I hope to get a medium frame bull from his spring Missouri sale.

Finding bulls is not hard. Everyone sells them, and it turns into a crap shoot.

Most everyone publishes EPDs. I feel like Pharo's prices are at market. I think his published stats are reasonably accurate.

One has to decide and hope for the right decision after doing one's homework. Hope hope.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

I've never bought any cows from Kit - but saw him at a local Grazing Conference where he spoke and had several presentations.

He seemed very knowledgeable and seemed to know what he was talking about.

The only problem is, I'm not sure he is actually "doing" the grass fed grazing and selling of beef. While he is raising cows and selling his genetics - he is more into selling calves, cows, and bulls for BREEDING - he isn't selling them "door to door" as meat.

While I agree with many of his concepts - grass fed, natural feeding, "you don't have to feed grain" - you have to remember - he is a salesman. His farm isn't a beef farm - it's a breeding farm and he sells his cows for breeding stock.

I have no idea how many cows he has or how many calves are born each year. Does he cull the "bad" genetic ones or are all of his calves "good quality stock" to be sold at auction?

He has auctions several times a year. It would be interesting to hear from those who have bought from him to see what their experience is.

One more thing - you can debate all you want on 1 big boned animal is better than 2 medium built animals vs 2 medium built animals are better than 1 big boned animal. One thing to think about - at least around here - is the butcher charges one fee to process a cow regardless of size.

So, is it cheaper over all to process ONE 2000# cow vs TWO 1000# cows? You have to figure that into the over all picture too.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

I like some of the guy's ideas but not overly impressed with his cattle. I never before seen a sale catalog with out pictures of the actual animals selling. Looking at his videos your buying a young, raw bull that hasn't been pushed for gain and has a lot of growth potential yet and will need a good level of nutrition to adequately grow out. One thing about the bulls he is selling they won't melt down on you.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

Michael W. Smith said:


> One more thing - you can debate all you want on 1 big boned animal is better than 2 medium built animals vs 2 medium built animals are better than 1 big boned animal. One thing to think about - at least around here - is the butcher charges one fee to process a cow regardless of size.
> 
> So, is it cheaper over all to process ONE 2000# cow vs TWO 1000# cows? You have to figure that into the over all picture too.


The guys that are arguing for larger framed cows aren't worried about selling beef to the consumer or worried about local processing charges. They are worried about weaning larger calves to be sold to feedlots to finish as 1200-1400 lb steers. The feedlots DO have to worry about per head processing charges.

My argument isn't whether Pharo cattle are the best choice to achieve those goals. My point is that while I don't own any Pharo cattle, I agree with Pharo about the profitability of running larger numbers of smaller framed cattle to produce more beef per acre. I also agree that it is desirable to own cows that can hold condition in adverse conditions (drought, winter, etc.) while or after raising a large calf without costly inputs.

While I understand calf producers are reluctant to produce calves that will get docked at auction, I wonder if that reduction in price per head wouldn't be more than offset if one could bring an additional 20-25% more head to market with the same inputs. I don't know the answer to this, but if I was a calf producer I would make sure I knew the answer.

I do have to worry about sizes for my customers as well as processing charges. Not many of my customers want a 400 lb (hanging weight) half of beef. It seems like 300 lbs is a good size for halves. That's about a 1000-1100 lb steer. That's very easy for me to grain finish in 18 months or grass finish in 26 months...on mostly frame 2-4 cows (vast majority 2-3) and frame 4 bulls.


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## BeltieX (Sep 26, 2015)

Gravytrain said:


> The guys that are arguing for larger framed cows aren't worried about selling beef to the consumer or worried about local processing charges. They are worried about weaning larger calves to be sold to feedlots to finish as 1200-1400 lb steers. The feedlots DO have to worry about per head processing charges.
> 
> My argument isn't whether Pharo cattle are the best choice to achieve those goals. My point is that while I don't own any Pharo cattle, I agree with Pharo about the profitability of running larger numbers of smaller framed cattle to produce more beef per acre. I also agree that it is desirable to own cows that can hold condition in adverse conditions (drought, winter, etc.) while or after raising a large calf without costly inputs.
> 
> ...


Maybe for private sales, but.....I can't see the smaller framed cattle are making profits if they were butchered and distributing the beef to the grocery stores. My guess, these small framed feeders are likely to be grinding as ground beef.


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## cattle girl (Jul 22, 2020)

agmantoo said:


> Up North, I am acquainted with Pharo cattle and I feel that he has/had a good thing going. Pharo's recent flooding of the market with frequent bull sales acquired from various sources are questionable in my mind. He is moving so fast that he cannot have control and I feel that he cannot produce the volume of bulls he is selling with confidence as there seems, on the surface, that nothing is culled that can pump viable semen. All the bulls he sales cannot be as good as purported.


I've purchased 4 of these bulls over the last5 yrs, 2 each time. I've had the ability to see where these bulls for the Missouri sale are raised till ready for sale. Just a short drive from my home in SW MO. They really do cull these boys hard to provide the best at sale. I've never been disappointed with the calves they produce . They are up and running as soon as they drop and the bulls are eager to work lol


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Pharo has some good ideas, decent theory, and magnificent marketing skills. Most people are buying his marketing skills, not his bulls. Seth


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

cattle girl said:


> I've purchased 4 of these bulls over the last5 yrs, 2 each time. I've had the ability to see where these bulls for the Missouri sale are raised till ready for sale. Just a short drive from my home in SW MO. They really do cull these boys hard to provide the best at sale. I've never been disappointed with the calves they produce . They are up and running as soon as they drop and the bulls are eager to work lol


Agman is no longer with us here on HT. I think he had a bad accident.

I did not follow through with my purchase of a Pharo bull. I wanted something a little bigger than what he had. I talked to the guy in MO that raises Pharo's bulls. I wanted at least a frame size 3.

I wound up with an excellent bull. I have now had three crops off him. I have great live birth rates. Never pulled a calf ( I hate jinxing myself). They grow up good, and fast. I top the market at my barn. I have two in the freezer right now. Very pleased. My bull is a frame size 4. My cows range from 3 to 6. I have two 3's and two or three 6's. The rest are 4's and 5's.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Seth said:


> Pharo has some good ideas, decent theory, and magnificent marketing skills. Most people are buying his marketing skills, not his bulls. Seth


The guy is a phenomenal communicator, and a great marketer. I have read his e-mails and newsletters for years. I still read them. He is very persuasive.

I wonder what happened with the big joint venture he did with some grass fed outfit down in Texas. US commercial grassfed cannot compete with imported beef. Most of it is grass fed, they have tons of grass and a real advantage with climate and rain.


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## TF Cattle (18 d ago)

We are In Northern Michigan above the 45th parallel and have used Pharo bulls for 6 years but never again. He went way to far with downsizing the frames. We get to many dink calves from these bulls and most of the females don't milk good. These #1000 runt cows don't last here in the cold winters and the calves pull them down no matter how much feed is in front of them. I have switched to Tim Ohlde Cattle Co bulls. They with make 4-5 frame females at the #1250-1350 and the milk production is way higher. I wish I had never listened to my friend and tried Pharo genetics.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Jolly_Free said:


> Typical for a one and done, write a bunch of negative comments without supporting documents. It is almost 2023 and technology has advanced enough that you could provide links to your information.


You should write your own posts instead of copying from others.


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