# Pride Goes Before a Fall



## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

I'm a bit intrigued that many of the people who are so vocal about dissing people who are homeless, receiving food stamps, etc seem to think it could never happen to them, particularly the women who are stay at home wives or moms. 

Ladies, do you really think that your husband is made of foolproof, err-proof titanium? That he can't die or get too injured or sick to work or that you'll always be together? I know, everyone says it can't happen to them, but it happens all the time, you think everything's fine in your marriage and then suddenly it's over and you're on your own. 

I've seen it happen to other ladies, some of whom were fine women, and it happened to me. And frankly, when you have a whole passel of kids, trying to make it without a man is that much harder what with daycare expenses, etc. Most of us have found ourselves with precious few applicable job skills. 

Men, you really think your job is bulletproof? That you can't lose it or lose your health? That happens all the time, too. And the marriage falling apart thing and ex wife ending up with the kids and half your stuff can happen too and then there's the child support, if she's lucky. 

In an ideal world, things like this wouldn't happen, but this is not an ideal world and I've seen it happen to the nicest folks you could imagine. So I'm wondering if you all have a backup plan or if your attitudes about poverty, etc would change if you found yourself there?


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## SageLady (Jun 10, 2008)

Yeah, I hate when people act all superior about themselves and like nothing bad could ever happen to them, and dis others for taking help when they need it. Most of these same people are just a step away from being destitute themselves if their spouse decided to suddenly abandon them or they lost their job. Think it won't happen to you - it happens everyday to folks that didn't think it could!


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

I haven't encountered any who dis the homeless, the needy. My experience has been w/folks who help those in need.
But I know what you mean. Some don't prepare, don't think something will happen to them.


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

As a widow and single mom, I have used food stamps at times. The ones I have problems with are the people who make this a life style. They were meant to help you get back on your feet, not to feed you and yours for a life time. If you are able bodied and have enough mental capacity to support yourself, you should do so. If you need help in the mean time, no problem, just don't be a lazy so-and-so and spend your day sitting around collecting benefits.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

There's a MAJOR difference in giving someone having problems a hand and giving a bum a handout to make him dependent on you because it gives you power over him.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

I've been there several times, so I know the drill perfectly.

I think people get upset, when they they see the downtrodden simply (or glady) accept their "fate" and then live it like it is normal, verses busting their humps, to once again make their lives better.

I even heard people brag about how great of handouts they get, if they go to the right place at the right time.

For sure, many have no other choice, but many do, but would rather squeak by, living off the "system", which requires less effort.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

People who prepare are ready when something happens to disrupt their life. People who live for today and let tomorrow take care of itself will always need help in some way when life gives them a wakeup call.

People who put back a little something every day will have something to fall back on when times get hard. Those who decide some toy, big home, fancy car, or electronic fad is a must have won't be prepared for any bump in the road.

People who are born to parents who make their living off the gov. will usually not learn any other skills except those needed to live off the gov.

Sometimes people need a little help. Just take a look at those who need help and decide if their life prior to needing the help was spent preparing for the future.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

watcher said:


> There's a MAJOR difference in giving someone having problems a hand and giving a bum a handout to make him dependent on you because it gives you power over him.


I give money to panhandlers, but I never really felt power over them. I do feel better, however, that for whatever reason(s), I have not ended up in their predicament. 

Karma, if you will.

If we don't help them out, even though they will likely buy drugs/booze, not "food" , with the "donation". they will not decide to clean up their act and get a job. They will mug someone (injuring or killing), or turn to dangerous prostitution, to get the money, or just die a lonely death, which is how they will go anyway.

I do agree, that In the end, charity is always about ourselves.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I don't know who these people are that you are speaking of, dissing the poor. Bad things happen all of the time,but making a life that is dependant on others is not right. And ya,I did think about having a whole passel of kids-didn't have any,because I didn't want a man to shirk his responsibilities and not be a good Father, and I can take care of myself. Divorced that bum and stayed single for many years. My now Dh ill and will not get better, so of course I think about takeing care of things all by myself, everyday.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> I give money to panhandlers, but I never really felt power over them. I do feel better, however, that for whatever reason(s), I have not ended up in their predicament.


Why not? You have the power to see if they eat or not. Extend that to the welfare system et al, and the government has the power to see if they have food or not, housing or not, heat or not, etc, etc.




plowjockey said:


> If we don't help them out, even though they will likely buy drugs/booze, not "food" , with the "donation". they will not decide to clean up their act and get a job. They will mug someone (injuring or killing), or turn to dangerous prostitution, to get the money, or just die a lonely death, which is how they will go anyway.


Are you really helping them? Or are you feeding their habit to make yourself feel good?




plowjockey said:


> I do agree, that In the end, charity is always about ourselves.


Sort of. But its not charity when you are forced to give and have no say in how's its given nor who gets it. That is its government mandated.


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## J.T.M. (Mar 2, 2008)

Hell ,I give to the passing bum on the street... and sometimes sit and drink his booze with him..... No big deal,done it lots of times.

IMO the OP is a fail.

Some people will read/hear what ever their agenda is.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

My Sons wife left him in Florida with a pair of Shorts.No I.D.,No Money,No Clothes and No Transportation.This was on Christmas Day.

Think about it.

big rockpile


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I have a problem with habitual abusers of the welfare system and those people who stick up for them.
I have a hard time understanding why those who need the help don't see that we can not help both those who need the help and the abusers.
just had to say this, i would appreciate some one explaining to me why they defend the abusers.
I have prepared in case heaven forbid some thing happens to me or dh.
It hasent been that hard either, if we can do it so can others. it's time to stop making excuses. It's time for people to take back their dignity and stand on their own 2 feet as much as possible. Then and only then should we take advantage of the system. it was never ment to be a permanant hand out.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Well- bad things can happen to anyone- that's true. But what really matters is what a person does when it happens.
It's the difference between someone who says "I can't take that job because I don't have a reliable car" versus the one who says "I need to move closer to work so I don't need to rely on my old car." The one who says "My mom's babysititing for me on Tuesdays so I can get out of the house" versus the one who says "I'm so lucky my mom will watch the kids so I can work extra." The one who says "I won't waste my time taking that cheap paying job- life's too short" versus the one who says "At least I have a job but I'm keeping my eyes open for a better one."
And guess what- the people you see working have probably had bad things happen- they just went over, around or through any obstacle that came up.
I'm sorry that people who seem to want to talk about how hard it is on welfare are irritated by not getting the massage they were wanting. But you do know what you can to about it- either keep it to yourself or take care of your business.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

watcher said:


> Are you really helping them? Or are you feeding their habit to make yourself feel good?


Yes, I'm helping them make it to tomorrow, whether it's a sandwich (which they usually get for free anyway),a bottle of booze or some hits of crack. Besides, I don't ask what they will spend the money on. It does not matter to me.

I know for sure, that If I don't 'help" them out, then suddenly they will decide begging is not the right thing to do and will change their lifes, by going into rehab, then finding a job. It almost never works that way. More than likely, they will just smash someone else, over the head with a brick and take their purse. They don't really have anything to lose.

If someone is trying to get away from begging, my buck. might help them make the trip.

It's not my call, either way and yes, I do feel fine about it.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I know this year dh and i won't be giving to the food bank like we did last year. We have decided to stop being enablers.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

SquashNut said:


> I know this year dh and i won't be giving to the food bank like we did last year. We have decided to stop being enablers.


Well, they do say, that charity comes from the heart.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

plowjockey said:


> Well, they do say, that charity comes from the heart.


Yes they do and i thought it was the right thing to do before, but as I meet more and more people in this area that live on hand outs, sell their food stamps and use their fire wood allotments to buy drugs, my heart is just not in it any more.
If I were to find some one that I felt i could make a difference with, then I will help them. It's a sad world we live in.


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

Squashnut, like you, we've decided to cut back or eliminate some of our giving for the same reason you mention. We work so very hard for our money, my dh harder than I do, and we're not spring chickens anymore and as we age, the work gets harder and the money more scarce and worth less. We decided to find ways that our meager giving will go directly to those who genuinely need it and as little as possible to the advantage-takers. It's hard to find organizations that do much filtering of clients, but there are a few who do, both locally and nationally, and those are the ones that get our money. But local food banks where people drive up in SUV's and pickups that are either new or 1 to 3years old... no, sorry. If they were destitute enough to need to be fed, they would not have a late model vehicle, period. Sure, they may be borrowing it from a family member, but using that logic then every vehicle on the lot would have to be borrowed from someone, and that *ain't* very darn likely. IMO if you've got enough cash to pay for a new or like new SUV, you've got enough money to buy your own food, and you should not be abusing the charity of others, period.

Not really on topic, just my opinion.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

JuliaAnn said:


> Squashnut, like you, we've decided to cut back or eliminate some of our giving for the same reason you mention. We work so very hard for our money, my dh harder than I do, and we're not spring chickens anymore and as we age, the work gets harder and the money more scarce and worth less. We decided to find ways that our meager giving will go directly to those who genuinely need it and as little as possible to the advantage-takers. It's hard to find organizations that do much filtering of clients, but there are a few who do, both locally and nationally, and those are the ones that get our money. But local food banks where people drive up in SUV's and pickups that are either new or 1 to 3years old... no, sorry. If they were destitute enough to need to be fed, they would not have a late model vehicle, period. Sure, they may be borrowing it from a family member, but using that logic then every vehicle on the lot would have to be borrowed from someone, and that *ain't* very darn likely. IMO if you've got enough cash to pay for a new or like new SUV, you've got enough money to buy your own food, and you should not be abusing the charity of others, period.
> 
> Not really on topic, just my opinion.


Very much on topic, just my opinion!!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

For many years I have limited my giving and helping to those I know. If I know a person who is having a hard time I help them out. I would rather look at it as a gift but some will insist that it is only a loan until they are in better shape. So far less then 10% have tried to pay back me or tried to help others. That part don't bother me but I do put a limit on the help I give to others. If they try I will help but when they quit trying I quit helping.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

SquashNut said:


> Yes they do and i thought it was the right thing to do before, but as I meet more and more people in this area that live on hand outs, sell their food stamps and use their fire wood allotments to buy drugs, my heart is just not in it any more.
> If I were to find some one that I felt i could make a difference with, then I will help them. It's a sad world we live in.


Fair enough.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

SquashNut said:


> Yes they do and i thought it was the right thing to do before, but as I meet more and more people in this area that live on hand outs, sell their food stamps and use their fire wood allotments to buy drugs, my heart is just not in it any more.
> If I were to find some one that I felt i could make a difference with, then I will help them. It's a sad world we live in.


I am really curious to find out how they are selling their food stamps now that it's on a card. If they turn the card and pin number over, then they won't have it for the next month, and getting a new card takes up to 2-3 weeks. 

I know poor people that I don't respect because I don't see them making much of an effort...people who if you give them fresh produce or fruit, they throw it away after being so eager to take it, because they don't want to bother actually using it. One lady showed up with a bunch of chicken baby food to give to my dog as treats...said she'd gotten them from the food bank. Why did she take baby food when she has no baby and someone with a baby might need that?! I do see these people...but I have yet to meet one who is selling their food stamps or giving their card away. 

I think I may have heard of one of them making a meal or a cake or something in exchange for some favor or something. I guess that's selling food stamps...but...I wouldn't do it, but whatever. It isn't exactly the same as handing over a bundle of the old food stamps in exchange for half the dollar amount in cash. 

The thing is, there isn't any easy way to weed these people out, and for every user there's someone who truly needs the food and whose family may very well starve without it.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

J.T.M. said:


> Hell ,I give to the passing bum on the street... and sometimes sit and drink his booze with him..... No big deal,done it lots of times.


Yeah, and I won't. I never give a cash handout to a panhandler because nearly all of them are alcoholics. If they needed food, they'd be at the food bank, not outside a business that sells alcohol. There have been occasions when a person looked like they were from out of town, passing through, stranded with no idea of where to find local help and I have given them food. But in a little town just over the ID/WA border, it is the same bums every day, day after day, holding up signs, and that's where I draw the line.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

chamoisee said:


> Yeah, and I won't. I never give a cash handout to a panhandler because nearly all of them are alcoholics. If they needed food, they'd be at the food bank, not outside a business that sells alcohol. There have been occasions when a person looked like they were from out of town, passing through, stranded with no idea of where to find local help and I have given them food. But in a little town just over the ID/WA border, it is the same bums every day, day after day, holding up signs, and that's where I draw the line.


But you think it is ok for the tax payers to give money and food stamps to the drug abusers?


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

I already addressed the cash assistance topic on the other thread. Cash assistance in Idaho is almost nonexistent. And yes, I support giving food stamps to the local potheads with kids. I don't see why kids should go hungry just because mom is smoking a joint now and then. If mom is such a druggie that she can't parent her kids, then the kids should live somewhere else, but until then, they need to eat.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

chamoisee How they sell the food stamps is in their known group someone kin or otherwise sends them shopping with a list upon return they pay 50% in cash .:awh: Otherwise they take their card and return it .One half the world has no idea how the other half lives :run:


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Huh. Obviously I've never done it or known anyone to talk to me about having done it.


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## J.T.M. (Mar 2, 2008)

Sawmill Jim said:


> chamoisee How they sell the food stamps is in their known group someone kin or otherwise sends them shopping with a list upon return they pay 50% in cash .:awh: Otherwise they take their card and return it .One half the world has no idea how the other half lives :run:


0.35 cents per dollar here in Iowa. I dont know why Im so surprized to find ,when I go home to visit ,the same families that were getting stamps in the 1970s is still getting them.The biggest boast I hear from the stamp sellers is.... " they give me way more then I can use ".
I think someone in this thread is projecting a subject they have have only read about and not experanced for them selfs.Either that or they are very nieve .

PS : forgive the spelling ,kids are not home...:grin:


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

And it's not just with paper 'stamps' either. Many states use a sort of debit card I think called EBT. There are store owners who will give them cash back on their EBT cards (don't know the exact details of how that's done but it's frequently reported in the local news here) and also allow them to purchase non food items like cigarettes, beer, wine, etc. on their cards. So this is another way the system is abused and tax dollars ----ed away--tax dollars my husband and I break our backs to earn and pay in, while at the same time not being qualified for any assistance because we're self employed. There certianly have been times we could have used a little help with food stamps, but the one single time I called I was stopped the instant I told the man we were self employed. Yessir, they demand that tax money from you and when you're self employed you take the FULL social security gouge (meaning you pay 100% of SS withholding and not the 50% you would pay if you were employed elsewhere and that employer paid the other 50%) yep, you pay it ALL, yet are turned down when you need help. I really do resent knowing that money we earn of our own free will is demanded of us so that the government at large can knowingly, willfully waste it.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

The money back on the EBT card comes from AFDC or another program not food stamps card is muti purpose card i had to ask :cowboy:



JuliaAnn You are correct self employed at times is tough . Most Gov. programs will pay more than a low paying job with a lot of play time we don't have . 

I get mad every tax time been thinking about just quitting :grumble:


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

JuliaAnn said:


> And it's not just with paper 'stamps' either. Many states use a sort of debit card I think called EBT. There are store owners who will give them cash back on their EBT cards (don't know the exact details of how that's done but it's frequently reported in the local news here) and also allow them to purchase non food items like cigarettes, beer, wine, etc. on their cards.


This is not possible. I was a cashier and the customers don't get change with food stamps. They only get cash back if they have cash benefits or child support on the cash side of their card. Then they can withdraw cash. Food stamps cannot be changed into cash. Even refunding something bought with food stamps to put the food stamps back onto the card usually require the help of a manager. 




> There certainly have been times we could have used a little help with food stamps, but the one single time I called I was stopped the instant I told the man we were self employed. Yessir, they demand that tax money from you and when you're self employed you take the FULL social security gouge (meaning you pay 100% of SS withholding and not the 50% you would pay if you were employed elsewhere and that employer paid the other 50%) yep, you pay it ALL, yet are turned down when you need help. I really do resent knowing that money we earn of our own free will is demanded of us so that the government at large can knowingly, willfully waste it.


Huh. I have occasionally been able to make and sell things or earn money doing yard work (in addition to a job and school) and reporting that income has not been a problem and Health and Welfare does not ask you to pay taxes. They just have you fill out a form detailing how you earned the money, etc.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

chamoisee said:


> I already addressed the cash assistance topic on the other thread. Cash assistance in Idaho is almost nonexistent. And yes, I support giving food stamps to the local potheads with kids. I don't see why kids should go hungry just because mom is smoking a joint now and then. If mom is such a druggie that she can't parent her kids, then the kids should live somewhere else, but until then, they need to eat.


But if mothers are selling their food stamps for pot money, so how do you see it that the kids are getting fed. No matter how much the kids need to eat, they are not getting fed. I am not talking about a joint now and then either.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Anyway, you folks are skirting the original topic: so many of you prep for TEOTWAKI, but do you prep for the more likely and imminent scenarios that I described? Ladies, do you have marketable job skills? Cash and preps only last for so long. Guys, do you have medical insurance so that if you fall off a scaffold at work or get hit by a drunk driver, you won't have to go on Medicaid? Do you have a backup plan so that if (god forbid!) you get seriously ill, your family will be able to pay all the bills for a couple of years?


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

chamoisee said:


> I am really curious to find out how they are selling their food stamps now that it's on a card. If they turn the card and pin number over, then they won't have it for the next month, and getting a new card takes up to 2-3 weeks.
> 
> I know poor people that I don't respect because I don't see them making much of an effort...people who if you give them fresh produce or fruit, they throw it away after being so eager to take it, because they don't want to bother actually using it. One lady showed up with a bunch of chicken baby food to give to my dog as treats...said she'd gotten them from the food bank. Why did she take baby food when she has no baby and someone with a baby might need that?! I do see these people...but I have yet to meet one who is selling their food stamps or giving their card away.
> 
> ...


They are taking the purchaser to the grocery store so they can pick out the stuff then they use the card to pay for it. or they buy stuff for resell. I am not the only one to see evidence of that.

Just my opinion you don't make your self sound credible when you use the word starve, it sounds really hoaky. No one is starving in this country, that is a bunch of BS.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

SquashNut said:


> But if mothers are selling their food stamps for pot money, so how do you see it that the kids are getting fed. No matter how much the kids need to eat, they are not getting fed. I am not talking about a joint now and then either.


The pothead mom I knew had terminal cancer. I can't say that I begrudged her whatever she needed for the chemo and the pain. She didn't sell her food stamps to get the pot. She and her son ate a lot of processed food that I didn't really approve of and her son was obese despite a long walk to school every day....but she also cooked from scratch occasionally. 

I've known other folks who grew their own, etc. Their kids also ate with the food stamps. One family bought their food in bulk, were frugal, etc and would have fit in very well here. To meet them you'd never know they were getting help- I was shocked when I found out. 

I'm not saying there's not abuse. I am saying that it is not the majority of people. I would like for there to be classes on how to cook healthy meals from scratch, mandatory parenting classes, etc.....but that's just me.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

You just know different people than i do, doesn't mean they don't exist. It is happening, and they has to be a wy to figure it out. And like i said you should want to see it resolved as much as any one else does. The funds are there for the abusers and the needy too.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

SquashNut said:


> They are taking the purchaser to the grocery store so they can pick out the stuff then they use the card to pay for it. or they buy stuff for resell. I am not the only one to see evidence of that.


Huh. I didn't see that as a cashier but I suppose it could happen. 



> Just my opinion you don't make your self sound credible when you use the word starve, it sounds really hokey. No one is starving in this country, that is a bunch of BS.


People, especially children, would in fact be starving, yes starving in every sense of the word, malnourished, etc, without food stamps. 

I have a friend whose family didn't get food stamps even though they were poor. They frequently set the table with empty plates and "ate faith". Yes, really. She went without such that when she finally got half a sandwich one day, she was unable to keep it down because her stomach had shrunk even though she was so hungry. Tears come into her eyes and she chokes up when she talks about it. Her growth was delayed because of it. She didn't die of it, her stomach may not have gotten to the point of swelling up, but she was in fact starving or well on her way to it. 

None of us want to believe stuff like this can happen in our own country, but it can and it does and it would be much, much worse without the social programs, particularly right now.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I have no troubles with folks down on their luck, getting temporary assistance till they get back on their feet.

I do have troubles with professionals, who breed humans for profit, and have done this continuously since the War on Poverty started... multigenerational welfare families...

Anyone 'homeless' that remains homeless for more than a few months, has mental issues or some serious issues with sloth.

Children starve, only when their parents allow them too. If you don't have a pot to poo in, don't have children. If your children are hungry, kick the smokes, drinks, and tokes. Get a job and feed them.

You can give worthless humans (who'd let their kids starve) all the money in the world, and they'll still indulge their own needs, before feeding their offspring. 

"Enabling" bad behavior will never make the problem go away, indeed it can only get worse... like now, when you have three and four generations on welfare, having offspring in the 8th and 9th grade... Grandma's in the early thirties...

If anyone thinks modern welfare is good, they have some serious issues with self responsibility. It destroys human dignity, and brings more humans into the endless cycle of poverty, simply for the reason of a fatter welfare check... not because of any kind of love.......


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## J.T.M. (Mar 2, 2008)

chamoisee said:


> Huh. I didn't see that as a cashier but I suppose it could happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You want to see poor in the USA ,go to the mountains in KY. or parts of Mississippi ( I have family there ).Thats the real deal.WOW !!!!! The problem with eatting with a shrunken stomic isnt keeping it down,its getting it down .You have to force your self to chew and no matter what,the throte does not want to copperate.Its a very ugly ordeal to go thru. and I know there is zero people here that wants to see that.People like that are not what the folks here resent .....But Im sure your aware of that.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

To answer the OP, if I suddenly found myself without my DH I would still manage. I am a USAF vet with marketable skills in medical administration. I've also worked a wide variety of other jobs throughout my lifetime, so I'm versatile enough to find a job if I had to. We also raise our own food, and I can do every aspect of what needs to be done on our land. My only problem would be health issues, but regardless of my health, I'd find a way.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

It is a very old fashined idea that woman cann't do for themselves or that they need a man to support them.
I was accually suprised to see any one say they had doubts that woman could stand on their own 2 feet, but what ever.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

chamoisee said:


> Anyway, you folks are skirting the original topic: so many of you prep for TEOTWAKI, but do you prep for the more likely and imminent scenarios that I described? Ladies, do you have marketable job skills? Cash and preps only last for so long. Guys, do you have medical insurance so that if you fall off a scaffold at work or get hit by a drunk driver, you won't have to go on Medicaid? Do you have a backup plan so that if (god forbid!) you get seriously ill, your family will be able to pay all the bills for a couple of years?


Yes, yes, yes, & yes.
You need to realize you're on a HOMESTEADING forum here. We see folks all the time who aren't prepared like you stated above. Most here ARE.

When we earned lots of $$$ did we buy a 4K sqft home? NOOooo. We paid down this one. Just a regular nice house, 3/2/2, UNDER 2K sq ft. Its been paid for quite a few yrs.
SAVED $$$-DH has a kidney full of stones, never know when he'll need lithotripsy-20K w/ins, 12K cash. Also has 2 ruptured discs, already had another surgically repaired. Has NO ins. Pre-existing, ya know.
Needed a different car last march-took the $$ out of savings for a '06 lexus. We're in hog heaven.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Give a woman Gas money the other day to get 80 miles down the road.Don't have a problem.

Have couple put in for the Church to help them with Christmas,this is second year.They are in their 20's don't want to work and their asking for High $$ Carhartts.I have to question this.

My wife tried helping a Girl shop with Food Stamps to where she would get more for her $$ but the Girl won't listen.What are you going to do?

Have a Son out on the street,Mental and Physical issues.I'm so afraid he will not last much longer.I want to help but know there is nothing I can do but watch him slowly die. :Bawling:

Yes now days there is more of a need all a Person has to do is hear how many Kids are getting Free Lunches at School,see the Lines at Food Banks,see people living in Tents or Under Tarps in zero Temps,under Bridges or in the Woods.

Yes there has always been this but not to the point we are seeing today.No these people don't want to live this way there is a need.

big rockpile


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

chamoisee said:


> This is not possible. I was a cashier and the customers don't get change with food stamps. They only get cash back if they have cash benefits or child support on the cash side of their card. Then they can withdraw cash. Food stamps cannot be changed into cash. Even refunding something bought with food stamps to put the food stamps back onto the card usually require the help of a manager.


Just a few weeks ago there was a store owner near me arrested for doing just that thing. She also sold gas, beer, cigarettes, etc that were paid for with the food stamps. For those who wanted to sell their food stamps she had a standing offer of $.50 on the dollar.

Nothing unusual about getting cash for food stamps or buying items not allowed. Businesses have been built for just that thing.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

chamoisee said:


> I'm not saying there's not abuse. I am saying that it is not the majority of people. I would like for there to be classes on how to cook healthy meals from scratch, mandatory parenting classes, etc.....but that's just me.


Guess it would matter what you call a majority. Just my guess would be that at least 50% of food stamps are spent on things not allowed or sold outright.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

In my area we have several angel trees. For anyone who don't know what an angel tree is, it is a Christmas tree where families who live in poverty can put the names of their kids on a card with what they would like to have for Christmas. People will choose a card off the angel tree and supply Christmas for the child. There are several distributed all over the town and in many businesses.
This year they had to change the requirements for anyone wanting to be on the angel tree. This year to be put on the angel tree you had to provide SS numbers for all of the kids and everyone living in the household along with utility bills and proof of income. The numbers of kids on the angel trees dropped by 60%. An investigation showed there were many people who made up families, put them on every angel tree in town, and asked for items that could be easily turned into cash usually electronics and computers.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I quit doing those tree things, they would list game machines on them. $300 is alot to spend on a toy for some one you don't know.


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## J.T.M. (Mar 2, 2008)

SquashNut said:


> I quit doing those tree things, they would list game machines on them. $300 is alot to spend on a toy for some one you don't know.



:thumb:

I hear ya..... We did them for years ,but it got so insanly greedy.


Its now Make A Wish or St.Judes for us...:bowtie:


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

pancho said:


> Just a few weeks ago there was a store owner near me arrested for doing just that thing. She also sold gas, beer, cigarettes, etc that were paid for with the food stamps. For those who wanted to sell their food stamps she had a standing offer of $.50 on the dollar.
> 
> Nothing unusual about getting cash for food stamps or buying items not allowed. Businesses have been built for just that thing.


Actually...if a cashier manually entered in the price and dishonestly called it a produce or grocery item, rather than scanning it....it could be done. It would be crooked as all get out and that cashier should go to prison...but I suppose it could be done. 

Assuming the cashiers are honest and want to keep their jobs, it can't be done.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

pancho said:


> Guess it would matter what you call a majority. Just my guess would be that at least 50% of food stamps are spent on things not allowed or sold outright.


Do you have any basis besides general misanthropy for thinking this? Just for what it's worth, if you can actually catch people doing this stuff, you can report them and get them kicked off the program. it isn't enough to suspect or surmise though....you have to have hard proof. 

If it's as common as you think, nailing a few of them should be easy. I also am opposed to fraud, so by all means, have at it.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Tricky Grama said:


> Yes, yes, yes, & yes.
> You need to realize you're on a HOMESTEADING forum here. We see folks all the time who aren't prepared like you stated above. Most here ARE.


With all due respect, that isn't what I see here. I was a very frugal, very competent homesteader when I joined this site. I also didn't have any marketable job skills given my size, gender, and the jobs that were available in our area. And because I believed in allowing God to choose my family size and because I believed that the govt had no authority to sanction my marriage, I found myself a single mom with a lot of kids and no divorce settlement. I had put 8 years of sweat and blood and hard physical labor into our little farm, had worked to the point of exhaustion....and left it empty handed and penniless. 

I look around the site and I can see for myself that there are a lot of women who are in a situation similar to my own- stay at home mom and wife, sometimes with kids, working their tail off and just trusting that life will go on that way. And....some of them bash welfare moms, apparently thinking they're absolutely immune to it ever happening to them. 

Or is it the subconscious fear of ending up homeless or needing to ask for help that inspires such hatred towards those who are already there?


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## snake35 (Jan 24, 2011)

I agree with the O.P. Which was hijacked by people wanting to feel good about themselves. Hard times can fall upon anyone. However, if I personally had to survive on public assistance I would plot and plan how to take care of myself.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

chamoisee said:


> With all due respect, that isn't what I see here. I was a very frugal, very competent homesteader when I joined this site. I also didn't have any marketable job skills given my size, gender, and the jobs that were available in our area. And because I believed in allowing God to choose my family size and because I believed that the govt had no authority to sanction my marriage, I found myself a single mom with a lot of kids and no divorce settlement. I had put 8 years of sweat and blood and hard physical labor into our little farm, had worked to the point of exhaustion....and left it empty handed and penniless.
> 
> I look around the site and I can see for myself that there are a lot of women who are in a situation similar to my own- stay at home mom and wife, sometimes with kids, working their tail off and just trusting that life will go on that way. And....some of them bash welfare moms, apparently thinking they're absolutely immune to it ever happening to them.
> 
> Or is it the subconscious fear of ending up homeless or needing to ask for help that inspires such hatred towards those who are already there?


Then it's you who have made bad life choices and think others will make them also. And while i am sure others have made them simalar to yours, not every one is going to. It is about life choices after all. But should others pay for your mistakes, that is really the big question.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

chamoisee said:


> Actually...if a cashier manually entered in the price and dishonestly called it a produce or grocery item, rather than scanning it....it could be done. It would be crooked as all get out and that cashier should go to prison...but I suppose it could be done.
> 
> Assuming the cashiers are honest and want to keep their jobs, it can't be done.


The store didn't have a scanner. The owner was the one doing it.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

chamoisee said:


> Do you have any basis besides general misanthropy for thinking this? Just for what it's worth, if you can actually catch people doing this stuff, you can report them and get them kicked off the program. it isn't enough to suspect or surmise though....you have to have hard proof.
> 
> If it's as common as you think, nailing a few of them should be easy. I also am opposed to fraud, so by all means, have at it.


It is so common that people just natural ignore it.
My wife used to be a disrtict manager of quite a few stores. It is very common. What isn't common is anyone reporting it.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Then it's you who have made bad life choices and think others will make them also. And while i am sure others have made them simalar to yours, not every one is going to. It is about life choices after all. But should others pay for your mistakes, that is really the big question.


What is the alternative? Let her children starve? I have no doubt some on here would consider that right and proper. 

Hey, here's an idea: How about we mandate public schooling, so that kids who grow up in a religious cult like Chamoisee did will perhaps gain some marketable skills, or at least a high school diploma, and maybe some perspective? An awareness that there are alternatives to becoming a Bible-thumping baby factory and then a low-income wage slave/welfare recipient upon being abused or discarded by one's partner? 

That would be a good place to start, IMO.

And ... human nature being what it is, I think a lot of us forget how narrowly we escaped the consequences of our own mistakes. I easily could have gotten pregnant as a very young teenager and ended up trapped in the cycle of poverty the way Cham is. In fact, I DID accidentally get pregnant at 19, but my partner was willing to marry me. Had the father been the guy I was sleeping with a month or two earlier, the outcome probably wouldn't have been so rosy. 

Truth is, most of us are one divorce, death or disabling illness away from hard times. There but for the grace of God ...


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## nebula5 (Feb 4, 2003)

chamoisee said:


> I think its very difficult for most people to believe that they're only one job loss/divorce/car accident/serious illness/natural disaster away from being in a dependent situation. There is a need for us to think our well-being is within our control; if we do the right things our lives will go on as the always have. Unfortunately,life is humbling, and it doesn't necessarily work out that way. I think you're right about the subconscious fear.
> 
> In reference to the food stamps: I am a very straight-laced looking 50-year old woman, and I have had someone try to convince me to buy my groceries with her EBT card in exchange for 50% of the amount in cash. I of course said no, but I did not turn her in.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> Yes, I'm helping them make it to tomorrow, whether it's a sandwich (which they usually get for free anyway),a bottle of booze or some hits of crack. Besides, I don't ask what they will spend the money on. It does not matter to me.
> 
> I know for sure, that If I don't 'help" them out, then suddenly they will decide begging is not the right thing to do and will change their lifes, by going into rehab, then finding a job. It almost never works that way. More than likely, they will just smash someone else, over the head with a brick and take their purse. They don't really have anything to lose.
> 
> ...


No you are feeding their habit. If your kid was a druggie would you pay for his drugs "because he might start stealing to pay for it if you didn't? Or might you actually try to help him by trying to get off the drugs?


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

chamoisee said:


> I'm a bit intrigued that many of the people *who are so vocal about dissing people who are homeless,* receiving food stamps, etc seem to think it could never happen to them, particularly the women who are stay at home wives or moms.





chamoisee said:


> Yeah, and I won't. I never give a cash handout to a panhandler because *nearly all of them are alcoholics*.......





chamoisee said:


> I support giving food stamps to the local potheads with kids. I don't see why kids should go hungry *just because mom is smoking a joint now and then*.


:shrug:


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

willow_girl said:


> What is the alternative? Let her children starve? I have no doubt some on here would consider that right and proper.
> 
> Hey, here's an idea: How about we mandate public schooling, so that kids who grow up in a religious cult like Chamoisee did will perhaps gain some marketable skills, or at least a high school diploma, and maybe some perspective? An awareness that there are alternatives to becoming a Bible-thumping baby factory and then a low-income wage slave/welfare recipient upon being abused or discarded by one's partner?
> 
> ...


i beleive there are some people on here that would like to see kids starve too.(to use your words) But i am more inclined to think those people are the ones that think it is ok to support the abuse of our welfare system, because it it keeps up our welfare system will crash. Myself i don't see that being all that far off that that will happen.
But the only way a kid in this country could starve is if they were locked in a room and not allowed to eat. i don't see the original poster doing that do you?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

chamoisee said:


> I am really curious to find out how they are selling their food stamps now that it's on a card. If they turn the card and pin number over, then they won't have it for the next month, and getting a new card takes up to 2-3 weeks.
> 
> I know poor people that I don't respect because I don't see them making much of an effort...people who if you give them fresh produce or fruit, they throw it away after being so eager to take it, because they don't want to bother actually using it. One lady showed up with a bunch of chicken baby food to give to my dog as treats...said she'd gotten them from the food bank. Why did she take baby food when she has no baby and someone with a baby might need that?! I do see these people...but I have yet to meet one who is selling their food stamps or giving their card away.
> 
> ...


Simplest way is to have a store give you cash in exchange for your credits. The store then runs your card through its system selling nonexistent food and is paid back by the government.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> But the only way a kid in this country could starve is if they were locked in a room and not allowed to eat.


Take away all the assistance and you'd see some families in bad shape pretty quickly. 

It's not as if, were we to end all welfare, all the current recipients would quickly find work and learn to shift for themselves ... especially in an economy in which the unemployment rate already is high, and business owners can afford to be choosy about whom they hire. 

My parents grew up in the first Depression and I remember vividly my mother's stories about going hungry. Often the only food she and her siblings had for days on end was cold lard smeared on slices of bread. As much as I dislike our current system of copious handouts, I wouldn't wish that on any child. 

I'd prefer to see the government implement policies designed to discourage child-bearing by the poor -- for instance, phasing out the Earned Income Tax Credit, which rewards low earners for having children they may not be able to afford. 

We don't have to support children who haven't been created. :shrug:


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## ELOCN (Jun 13, 2004)

You're certainly right, that things can change just overnight. Just today in the paper I saw the obituary of a man who died at age 38!!!! It said he died of a heart attack. He left a widow and children.


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

Quote "Huh. I have occasionally been able to make and sell things or earn money doing yard work (in addition to a job and school)"

Well, yeah, huh. I've earned cash money doing odd jobs too, but it's mighty darn hard when your dh has been nearly killed and required four major surgeries over the period of a year and could not get to the toilet on his own and could not raise his arms to feed himself and I had to stay home and care for him and the children too, and gosh, wouldn't you know it, I had no time to mow yards or clean houses. Imagine that. 

I'm guessing you've never been completely self employed, as in 100% of your income (not odd jobs while working for another employer) and simply aren't aware of how the system operates for the self employed. Like I said, we get to pay in full SS but are completely forbidden one red cent of it... while what we do pay in benefits others.

And yes, EBT card fraud is rampant too. You can no doubt google news stories on it if you cared to learn how it's done.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Any one who works in a store and hasn't seen the fraud or doesn't want to admit it is going on is kidding them selves or some one.

I get the idea that some people who are welfare don't care as long as they are getting their's and really think it is cool when others abuse the system. Infact it is so bad i doubt if some thing did happen so i needed help, it's probably not going to be there any way.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

chamoisee said:


> With all due respect, that isn't what I see here. I was a very frugal, very competent homesteader when I joined this site. I also didn't have any marketable job skills given my size, gender, and the jobs that were available in our area. And because I believed in allowing God to choose my family size and because I believed that the govt had no authority to sanction my marriage, I found myself a single mom with a lot of kids and no divorce settlement. I had put 8 years of sweat and blood and hard physical labor into our little farm, had worked to the point of exhaustion....and left it empty handed and penniless.
> 
> I look around the site and I can see for myself that there are a lot of women who are in a situation similar to my own- stay at home mom and wife, sometimes with kids, working their tail off and just trusting that life will go on that way. And....some of them bash welfare moms, apparently thinking they're absolutely immune to it ever happening to them.
> 
> Or is it the subconscious fear of ending up homeless or needing to ask for help that inspires such hatred towards those who are already there?


Ah, I see. So you think your poor choices are not really your fault or couldn't be prevented? Didn't you plan? Not everyone is like that.
I was divorced w/3 kids & in the middle of college 2 yrs away from a nursing degree. It was incredibly difficult. 
Not too many have lives of rainbows & unicorns.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> So you think your poor choices are not really your fault


In all fairness to Cham (and I hope she'll forgive me for jumping in here) she was raised in a cult in which women basically were considered breeding stock, and denied an education. 

I've watched her try really hard for years to overcome her background and the decisions she made while living under this indoctrination.

Her case is a bit outside the norm, IMO.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

watcher said:


> No you are feeding their habit. If your kid was a druggie would you pay for his drugs "because he might start stealing to pay for it if you didn't? Or might you actually try to help him by trying to get off the drugs?


Many parents do pay for their child's drug habit. Some know it at the time they do it, some try to act like they do not know it, some do not care, and a few actually do not know about it.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes those mistakes are more serious than others.
Sometimes people need a little help. Those who need help should get the help they need.
Raising a family on any gov. program is not a mistake. People who are on some type of gov. program should put their plans of raising a family on the back burner. When they get back on their feet they can resume their life.
There is absolutely no excuse for a second generation or more on gov. assistance.


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## my3boys (Jan 18, 2011)

willow_girl said:


> What is the alternative? Let her children starve? I have no doubt some on here would consider that right and proper.
> 
> Hey, here's an idea: How about we mandate public schooling, so that kids who grow up in a religious cult like Chamoisee did will perhaps gain some marketable skills, or at least a high school diploma, and maybe some perspective? An awareness that there are alternatives to becoming a Bible-thumping baby factory and then a low-income wage slave/welfare recipient upon being abused or discarded by one's partner?
> 
> ...


So anyone who believes/has faith in God is an ignorant Bible-thumping baby factory? I guess that would include me since I am an evangelical who stayed at home with 3 kids. Wow, how incredibly offensive.

Just for your information, I have known many woman with large families who are responsible, intelligent mothers raising their children to be respectful, responsible, productive members of society. They have college educations and married responsible husbands. 

The OPs numerous mistakes (wrong guy, no marriage, didn't bother to equip herself with any job skills before having children) had nothing to do with religion. It had to do with personal responsibility. Period. She didn't "find herself in a bad situation". She created that situation herself by her bad choices. Now her children are paying.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

pancho said:


> Many parents do pay for their child's drug habit. Some know it at the time they do it, some try to act like they do not know it, some do not care, and a few actually do not know about it.


You aren't telling me something I don't know. I see it all the time. Just as with welfare proponents those parents see it as "helping" their kid not harming him.

As I point out, if you give an alcoholic a bottle of booze to prevent DT are you helping him? Well sort of because w/o it he's going to be in really bad shape in a few hours. But if all you do is give him a bottle a day you are helping him, you are helping him kill himself.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

pancho said:


> Everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes those mistakes are more serious than others.
> Sometimes people need a little help. Those who need help should get the help they need.
> Raising a family on any gov. program is not a mistake. People who are on some type of gov. program should put their plans of raising a family on the back burner. When they get back on their feet they can resume their life.
> There is absolutely no excuse for a second generation or more on gov. assistance.


My major problem is the fact the constitution does not give the federal government the power to take money from an individual and give it directly to another individual who is not an employee, contractor or supplier to the government.


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## my3boys (Jan 18, 2011)

chamoisee said:


> I'm a bit intrigued that many of the people who are so vocal about dissing people who are homeless, receiving food stamps, etc seem to think it could never happen to them, particularly the women who are stay at home wives or moms.
> 
> Ladies, do you really think that your husband is made of foolproof, err-proof titanium? That he can't die or get too injured or sick to work or that you'll always be together? I know, everyone says it can't happen to them, but it happens all the time, you think everything's fine in your marriage and then suddenly it's over and you're on your own.
> 
> ...


No I do not think nothing will ever happen to my dh. However, being responsible adults, we have planned. Life insurance, health insurance, and have lived below our means so that we could have some savings put aside for emergencies, and could invest in our retirement. If something were to happen to him, I could pay off the house and car and have enough left over to invest and get by on, however modestly. And yes, I would also get a job. Dh has a degree that enabled him to get a good job in a field that is in high demand. I worked for several years before getting married and then having kids.

It still all comes down to choices and responsibility. There just isn't any getting around it.

And just so you know, I grew up in poverty or near to it. The difference is I was not content to stay there and had no desire to be an adult ward of the state for the rest of my life, nor did I want that for my children.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

watcher said:


> My major problem is the fact the constitution does not give the federal government the power to take money from an individual and give it directly to another individual who is not an employee, contractor or supplier to the government.


No. That really should be the job of family. Years ago it was the family that stepped up or those who wanted to step up. We have passed that. Now it would be impossible to stop. We could hire those who do a better job of filling out paperwork and checking qualifications. That would mean getting rid of many gov. employeeses and hiring others that would do the job.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

oops- wrong thread


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> So anyone who believes/has faith in God is an ignorant Bible-thumping baby factory?


No, I was writing about the particular situation Chamoisee grew up in, based on her blog. Go read it yourself, if you want -- the link is in her signature line. 



> I guess that would include me since I am an evangelical who stayed at home with 3 kids. Wow, how incredibly offensive.


Does the shoe fit? If not, you're under to obligation to wear it.



> Just for your information, I have known many woman with large families who are responsible, intelligent mothers raising their children to be respectful, responsible, productive members of society. They have college educations and married responsible husbands.


That's great. If you're going to have kids, that's the way to do it, for sure.



> The OPs numerous mistakes (wrong guy, no marriage, didn't bother to equip herself with any job skills before having children) had nothing to do with religion.


It had EVERYTHING to do with (her) religion. Go read her blog! 



> It had to do with personal responsibility. Period. She didn't "find herself in a bad situation". She created that situation herself by her bad choices. Now her children are paying.


My point is that those "bad choices" are not always so simple. Look at that quasi-Mormon cult out West where the guy went to jail. What was his name, Jeffers? That stuff went on for decades. So say you were raised in that cult, married off when you were 13 to a man three times your age, and you accepted it, because that was your "normal." Now 15 years down the road, the police have raided the compound and are asking questions about your 14-year-old daughter and her husband. Should the mom in this case be prosecuted for allowing the marriage? Is she a perpetrator, an accomplice, or is she herself a victim? 

It's real easy to make generic moral judgments, but real life isn't always so simple or clear-cut.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

ELOCN said:


> You're certainly right, that things can change just overnight. Just today in the paper I saw the obituary of a man who died at age 38!!!! It said he died of a heart attack. He left a widow and children.


Oh that's so sad. :-(


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

JuliaAnn said:


> Quote "Huh. I have occasionally been able to make and sell things or earn money doing yard work (in addition to a job and school)"
> 
> Well, yeah, huh. I've earned cash money doing odd jobs too
> 
> ...


No, I haven't been completely self employed. You are right about that. What I meant was, the H & W office should have a form to fill out for proof of income generated by self employment. If one worker says no, come in again and ask another, because they are often wrong.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

And WOW, Willowgirl, you sent a LOT of traffic to my blog! 

And yes, folks, at that time in my life, everything I did revolved around religion. I am now doing my best to deal with the fallout, but in case you hadn't noticed, you can't exactly undo having a family once you fall upon hard times.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

My experience is that emergencies tend to travel in packs - like wolves. The first one chases you until you are exhausted. Then another one hamstrings you. A third rips your throat out and then the rest feed on the carcass. 

You can prepare for a lot of things but in actual fact you cannot ever prepare enough if you are unlucky. And I don't mean that luck determines your life. You do but if you happen to be sitting at a restaurant enjoying a cup of coffee and a runaway car ploughs through the window and over your table you have not done a thing wrong or to deserve what is about to happen to you but boy did you have some bad luck.

Unemployment, illness, disability, divorce, financial betrayal either personal or in business - all of these things and so many more can affect anyone. And often one thing leads to another. Illness can lead to unemployment to bankruptcy to poverty to homelessness. Some people are lucky enough to have family and friends to help. Many do not. Many people are the authors of their own foolish mistakes but many are not and even if you have been a complete fool there is no reason for your neighbours to let your kids starve.

We believe in self sufficiency and independence and are living this lifestyle. Saving and planning but still living our lives. So far so good and no really bad luck that we have not been able to handle.

Two things that I think are very important. One is that everyone should know how to handle the personal finances of their life right down to the minutest detail and should be active in day to day activities.. If you have a partner who wants to be in complete control separate your finances immediately. PYA no matter what. Especially if you have children.

The other thing is that debt makes you vulnerable and it takes away your freedom and choices. If you owe your soul to the company store you cannot protect yourself adequately when things go wrong. Or even when they are going right because you are obligated. Until we became debt free every decision we made had to be based on servicing our debt. Right down to whether or not he could go back to school or when to have a baby, now, next year, ten years from now.

We went through unemployment and medical stages in our life - once when we had debt and once when we had none. The difference was like night and day. The first time we came so close to living in our van that I was hand sewing curtains for the windows. The next time with no debt and money in the bank we did not have to depend on unemployment insurance and did not have to jump at the first job - whatever was offered. My husband actually took a job that fascinated him but paid about a third less than his previous job. We could afford it because we were prepared.

Lots of people want to eliminate entitlement programs and are very vocal about the bums taking advantage however when I ask them if they could go it completely alone if the shtf - if they could pay for their own unemployment, medical, disability or maternity leave or retirement or even welfare - they suddenly get very quiet.

Nearly 3/4 of employed people live pay cheque to pay cheque with debt and are only one or two pays away from disaster. As for saving enough for retirement. No where near enough people have near enough and if you think that you can just keep on working think again. The population is growing and the young are going to want your job.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

SquashNut said:


> Then it's you who have made bad life choices and think others will make them also. And while i am sure others have made them simalar to yours, not every one is going to. It is about life choices after all. But should others pay for your mistakes, that is really the big question.


Even if others have made the same bad life choices and found themselves in similar situations, I believe that people handle things like this in different ways. I've been homeless before, but have never taken government assistance. I don't belittle those who have to for a little while. I do take issue with people who make it a life long solution though.


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## my3boys (Jan 18, 2011)

willow_girl said:


> No, I was writing about the particular situation Chamoisee grew up in, based on her blog. Go read it yourself, if you want -- the link is in her signature line.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK, I read the blog. What I saw was there appeared to be a lot of issues from day one, including the OP inferring that it would have been better if she had been aborted. I also saw some thought processes not at all representative of the vast majority of people of faith in this country, and had more to do with life experiences and circumstances than with religion. I don't know of any Bible believing church that would advocate living together and having children without marriage. Also, and this is just my opinion, any church that advocates natural family planning (no birth control) should also be responsible for helping take care of those children should the family fall on hard times. That is entirely Biblical, to take care of your own.

The issue I took with your post is that you seemed to paint all people of faith with the same brush. You stated that public education should be mandatory. I took that to mean that no one should be able to place their children in private or Christian schools and homeschooling should not be allowed, meaning that children need to be saved from their ignorant parents and taught that God and all religion are myths and that intelligent, enlightened people would never believe that nonsense. If that was not your meaning, could you please clarify?


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Sonshine said:


> Even if others have made the same bad life choices and found themselves in similar situations, I believe that people handle things like this in different ways. I've been homeless before, but have never taken government assistance. I don't belittle those who have to for a little while. I do take issue with people who make it a life long solution though.


Yes she is teaching her kids that is what is normal, like my mother did. MOM was on welfare from when I turned 5 till my brother left home at 16. So about 17 years.
Not one time did she have any other income. Now there is 4 out of 5 of us on permanant welfare. 
I was the only one that decided it was not the life for me. Each of my 4 brothers found some feigned/fake way to get benifits.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

SquashNut said:


> Yes she is teaching her kids that is what is normal, like my mother did. MOM was on welfare from when I turned 5 till my brother left home at 16. So about 17 years.
> Not one time did she have any other income. Now there is 4 out of 5 of us on permanant welfare.
> I was the only one that decided it was not the life for me. Each of my 4 brothers found some feigned/fake way to get benifits.


Good for you. Most that are generational welfare recipients don't realize they are basically being enslaved by the system. Glad you broke out of it.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SquashNut said:


> Yes she is teaching her kids that is what is normal,


_Who_ is teaching her kids that this is what is normal?


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

I will forever thank my mom for raising me to not rely on a man.
She had a college education and encouraged me to do the same.
I was a divorced single mom with 2 kids and didn't rely on anyone to help me.
I guess I have always lived my life that way because I still don't rely on anyone.
I didn't have my first child until I was 26 and knew I could support him if my husband left or our marriage failed...which did happen.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> _Who_ is teaching her kids that this is what is normal?


welfare mothers teach their kids that being on welfare is the norm. Just like parents that work for a living teach their kids that is normal.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> _Who_ is teaching her kids that this is what is normal?


:shrug: I dunno, not me apparently since I do have a job at least, despite being eligible to apply for SSDI if I wanted to. I guess it is some other "she".


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

SquashNut said:


> I know this year dh and i won't be giving to the food bank like we did last year. We have decided to stop being enablers.


Enablers?


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> In all fairness to Cham (and I hope she'll forgive me for jumping in here) she was raised in a cult in which women basically were considered breeding stock, and denied an education.
> 
> I've watched her try really hard for years to overcome her background and the decisions she made while living under this indoctrination.
> 
> Her case is a bit outside the norm, IMO.


Indeed. And those of us who have followed her over the years and witnessed her struggles and accomplishments are darned proud of her.

Getting back to the OP, we are on our way to Denver and stopped in Wichita at a sandwich shop. Halfway through our meal a homeless lady came in and bought a soda so she could get in out of the rain. We asked her if she was hungry and he nodded, so we told her to go order any sandwich she wanted. She was elated and grateful. I think it is horrendous that there are not enough shelters for women like that. She is mentally a bit slow and could not possibly hold down a job.

Must have been bad choices on her part, too.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> The issue I took with your post is that you seemed to paint all people of faith with the same brush. You stated that public education should be mandatory. I took that to mean that no one should be able to place their children in private or Christian schools and homeschooling should not be allowed, meaning that children need to be saved from their ignorant parents and taught that God and all religion are myths and that intelligent, enlightened people would never believe that nonsense. If that was not your meaning, could you please clarify?


I wish, in cases like Cham's and the Jeffs cult and others like them, the children could have some exposure to the outside "normal" world and an awareness that they could make other choices for themselves. It's a ----ed shame that by the time Cham came to her senses, she already had a large family without the requisite skills to support them. 

In my own case, I was raised by virulently racist parents, but encountered a different set of values in the public schools I attended... enough to make me question and eventually reject the poisonous things I was being taught at home. 

Society at large can be a good counterbalance.


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## wanda1950 (Jan 18, 2009)

What a cruel series of remarks. I can't believe anyone would be so callous.

o anyone who believes/has faith in God is an ignorant Bible-thumping baby factory? I guess that would include me since I am an evangelical who stayed at home with 3 kids. Wow, how incredibly offensive.

Just for your information, I have known many woman with large families who are responsible, intelligent mothers raising their children to be respectful, responsible, productive members of society. They have college educations and married responsible husbands.

The OPs numerous mistakes (wrong guy, no marriage, didn't bother to equip herself with any job skills before having children) had nothing to do with religion. It had to do with personal responsibility. Period. She didn't "find herself in a bad situation". She created that situation herself by her bad choices. Now her children are paying.


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## wanda1950 (Jan 18, 2009)

How can I contact someone with authority to lock this up? Remarks made go beyond belief in cruelty.


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## wanda1950 (Jan 18, 2009)

Why Dutchie's remark & not the original nasty one by my3boys?


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Dutchie said:


> Indeed. And those of us who have followed her over the years and witnessed her struggles and accomplishments are darned proud of her.
> 
> Getting back to the OP, we are on our way to Denver and stopped in Wichita at a sandwich shop. Halfway through our meal a homeless lady came in and bought a soda so she could get in out of the rain. We asked her if she was hungry and he nodded, so we told her to go order any sandwich she wanted. She was elated and grateful. I think it is horrendous that there are not enough shelters for women like that. She is mentally a bit slow and could not possibly hold down a job.
> 
> Must have been bad choices on her part, too.


Well it was when I ended up that way.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

wanda1950 said:


> The OPs numerous mistakes (wrong guy, no marriage, didn't bother to equip herself with any job skills before having children) had nothing to do with religion.


And here is where I have to disagree. If you hold the belief that your marriage is ordained by God and that only God, not man, can sanctify a marriage, then getting a marriage formalized by the state is not only a mere formality, it is asking the state to recognize the marriage. If you have been brought up to believe that the gov't is the beast, then quite possibly your religious beliefs will have you not getting a state sanctioned marriage or getting birth certificates or social security cards for your kids. 

And if you hold that the state's authority _is_ paramount in authorizing a marriage, then one has to confront the sticky situation generated by the legality of gay marriage in some states. 

We had a ceremony with vows and witnesses and a reception and such. It just wasn't legal, so I got nothing at all when we ended it. 

And for the record, since it isn't in the blog: I did get my GED. My then abusive husband forbade me from accepting the scholarship that was going to be awarded to me for getting the top score in the county because he was miffed that my score was higher than his. I was taught that the Bible tells us to obey our husbands in all things so even though it was a bitter pill to swallow...I obeyed him. I really wish I hadn't....I am still struggling through college now. But even when he was raping me, every Christian or believer, of many different denominations, that we knew, either urged me to get counseling and reconcile with him, condemned me for leaving him, or informed me that a wife's body belongs to her husband so it was my own fault if he raped me because I wasn't submitting. The jerk was trying to knock me up right after having my second child and of course birth control was abortion......

Yeah, I just don't wanna hear the line that religion had nothing at all to do with this. I was deluded and brainwashed, period.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

The question is how do you go from hating the goverment to being so dependent on it?


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

We are *all* dependent on government whether or not we choose to face that fact. If you are not being overrun by enemy armies, if you have roads to travel on, if there are courts and representatives in congress for you, if there are police and fire fighters and other government workers ensuring that life runs smoothly, you are dependent on government.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

chamoisee said:


> We are *all* dependent on government whether or not we choose to face that fact. If you are not being overrun by enemy armies, if you have roads to travel on, if there are courts and representatives in congress for you, if there are police and fire fighters and other government workers ensuring that life runs smoothly, you are dependent on government.


AMEN, the problem lies in alot of people want the next guy to pay for it.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

No matter how a person is raised, there comes a point in time that they have to take up and take responsibility for their own actions. Others have grown up in less than favorable conditions and have somehow managed to stand on their own two feet.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

chamoisee said:


> :shrug: I dunno, not me apparently since I do have a job at least, despite being eligible to apply for SSDI if I wanted to. I guess it is some other "she".


That's what I was wondering. As long as I've known you, you've worked hard to support your children. Who, btw are intelligent, articulate and and pretty terrific kids, at least the ones that I've met personally.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

chamoisee said:


> We are *all* dependent on government whether or not we choose to face that fact. If you are not being overrun by enemy armies, if you have roads to travel on, if there are courts and representatives in congress for you, if there are police and fire fighters and other government workers ensuring that life runs smoothly, you are dependent on government.


Some people carry the dependent part a little far. They depend on the government for child care, food, housing, medical care, transportation, education, and in the end even burial.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> That's what I was wondering. As long as I've known you, you've worked hard to support your children. Who, btw are intelligent, articulate and and pretty terrific kids, at least the ones that I've met personally.


Thank you Lisa. I did go to work study and 2 days a week at Mitchell's when I was going to college full time...... an hour and a half away....but if these ladies think they could work full time, attend college full time and get good grades, and raise 6 kids, well, they are welcome to go and try that before they criticize me.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

chamoisee said:


> Thank you Lisa. I did go to work study and 2 days a week at Mitchell's when I was going to college full time...... an hour and a half away....but if these ladies think they could work full time, attend college full time and get good grades, and raise 6 kids, well, they are welcome to go and try that before they criticize me.


I did it, but then again I only had 4 kids to support (husband was laid off)


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Life happens. Things can be great one minute and fall apart the next.
The question is what do we do when things do fall apart? Do we sit back and make excuses, blame others, or do we pull ourselves up from our boot straps and carry on, no matter how hard it might be?

My life fell apart when my husband lost his job. Together we had 4 kids (2 of his from a previous relationship and 2 of our own.) We lost our home and had to move in with his mother in her 2 bedroom apartment. The next week I went to the college admissions office and signed up for a 2 year plan to get my teaching credential and Master's. I took any and every sub job I could find during the day (worked for 4 districts) and went to school at night.
I hardly saw my family. I had no time for anything other than work, school and sleep. It sucked BIG time, but I did it.
Call me cold or heartless, but it can be done and I don't fall for excuses. I still have student loans and will for the next 10 years.
Soon after I finished, I ended up getting a divorce and was fortunate to have finished school because I have never been on the receiving end of any child support.
Life is about choices...period.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

chamoisee said:


> Thank you Lisa. I did go to work study and 2 days a week at Mitchell's when I was going to college full time...... an hour and a half away....but if these ladies think they could work full time, attend college full time and get good grades, and raise 6 kids, well, they are welcome to go and try that before they criticize me.


I only had 3 kids, going thru a divorce AND attending colloege. Hardiest thing I ever did. Had 3 part time jobs. 
Had food stamps the last 8 mo of school.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Tricky Grama said:


> I only had 3 kids, going thru a divorce AND attending colloege. Hardiest thing I ever did. Had 3 part time jobs.
> Had food stamps the last 8 mo of school.


Taking food stamps and thinking that woman cann't take care of them selves. Is 2 different things. Just like thinking it is ok for people to abuse our system is wrong.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

chamoisee said:


> Thank you Lisa. I did go to work study and 2 days a week at Mitchell's when I was going to college full time...... an hour and a half away....but if these ladies think they could work full time, attend college full time and get good grades, and raise 6 kids, well, they are welcome to go and try that before they criticize me.


i went back and read that and I didn't mean you. I don't have a colledge education so some times, i don't word things correctly. I was talking generally about welfare mom's. Some of them I know myself and they not only teach their kids how to get on welfare, they encourage it..


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

SquashNut said:


> i went back and read that and I didn't mean you. I don't have a colledge education so some times, i don't word things correctly. .


I know what you mean.I have a couple of degrees but still have a problem wording things. I know what I want to say but sometimes have a problem finding the right words.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

shanzone2001 said:


> I did it, but then again I only had 4 kids to support (husband was laid off)


With a 3 hour (1.5 hours each way) commute?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

chamoisee said:


> Thank you Lisa. I did go to work study and 2 days a week at Mitchell's when I was going to college full time...... an hour and a half away....but if these ladies think they could work full time, attend college full time and get good grades, and raise 6 kids, well, they are welcome to go and try that before they criticize me.


My Mom did it with 5 kids.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

chamoisee said:


> We are *all* dependent on government whether or not we choose to face that fact. If you are not being overrun by enemy armies, if you have roads to travel on, if there are courts and representatives in congress for you, if there are police and fire fighters and other government workers ensuring that life runs smoothly, you are dependent on government.


Paying for this is not "dependency"- not paying for this is.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> No matter how a person is raised, there comes a point in time that they have to take up and take responsibility for their own actions. Others have grown up in less than favorable conditions and have somehow managed to stand on their own two feet.












And if the op intended this to be all about the HER, why was the op disguised as a general question?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Tricky Grama said:


> And if the op intended this to be all about the HER, why was the op disguised as a general question?


Thank you Tricky Grama. I understand that some people have had rough lives, but to me the measure of a person is how they deal with it. Some will complain and expect a handout for the rest of their lives. Others will brush it off and make the determination that they can change things for the better and take pride in taking care of themselves and their families.

I had a cousin who's Mom was not much of a role model. She slept with anyone she could find in the bars. His Dad went to prison for writing bad checks. My cousin turned to a life of crime, petty robberies, breaking and entering, ect. His brother turned his life around yet this one cousin is now in prison for breaking and entering, resisting arrest, ect. Once he gets out of prison he'll be sent to another state to pay for crimes he committed there. 

Yes, he had a bad childhood, but he's an adult now. He still blames his parents, yet he's a grown man responsible for his own actions.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Thank you Tricky Grama. I understand that some people have had rough lives, but to me the measure of a person is how they deal with it. Some will complain and expect a handout for the rest of their lives. Others will brush it off and make the determination that they can change things for the better and take pride in taking care of themselves and their families.
> 
> I had a cousin who's Mom was not much of a role model. She slept with anyone she could find in the bars. His Dad went to prison for writing bad checks. My cousin turned to a life of crime, petty robberies, breaking and entering, ect. His brother turned his life around yet this one cousin is now in prison for breaking and entering, resisting arrest, ect. Once he gets out of prison he'll be sent to another state to pay for crimes he committed there.
> 
> Yes, he had a bad childhood, but he's an adult now. He still blames his parents, yet he's a grown man responsible for his own actions.


Most kids have to be taught. They don't know right and wrong when young. They watch and learn. If the only example they have is a bad one they will usually turn out the same. That is one reason we have generations on govt. benifits and why crime is so bad.
In his case his parents are to blame. They taught him all he knows. That doesn't make it any better and is not an excuse for anything. 

A child that is raised in that kind or enverioment and does not turn out like their parents, no I had better use some other word as they are not parents, like the examples they see as grownups is an unusual and special person.


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## vicki in NW OH (May 10, 2002)

I think maybe a lesson to be learned here is that if you know a woman with kids having a tough time help her out! Watch the kids so she can study, have them over for a meal, etc. Make the time and effort to be helpful.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

vicki in NW OH said:


> I think maybe a lesson to be learned here is that if you know a woman with kids having a tough time help her out! Watch the kids so she can study, have them over for a meal, etc. Make the time and effort to be helpful.


And maybe talk to the mother about not having any more until she, and the man who fathers it, can raise them on their own.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Most kids have to be taught. They don't know right and wrong when young. They watch and learn. If the only example they have is a bad one they will usually turn out the same. That is one reason we have generations on govt. benifits and why crime is so bad.
> In his case his parents are to blame. They taught him all he knows. That doesn't make it any better and is not an excuse for anything.
> 
> A child that is raised in that kind or enverioment and does not turn out like their parents, no I had better use some other word as they are not parents, like the examples they see as grownups is an unusual and special person.


Yet for some reason, his brother, who was raised in the same enviroment turned out great. That's why I say that there comes a time when you have to stop blaming others and take responsibility for your own actions.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Tricky Grama said:


> And if the op intended this to be all about the HER, why was the op disguised as a general question?


If your POTD stuff is intended to set yourself up as some sort of an approving authority, then why do you accuse me of being self centered?

And for the record, other people decided to criticize me. My intention all along has been to question whether other people are wise in thinking that their little card houses are bombproof. Their response has been to attack, which is natural given that I expressed a thought which threatens the inner security of some.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

chamoisee said:


> If your POTD stuff is intended to set yourself up as some sort of an approving authority, then why do you accuse me of being self centered?
> 
> And for the record, other people decided to criticize me. My intention all along has been to question whether other people are wise in thinking that their little card houses are bombproof. Their response has been to attack, which is natural given that I expressed a thought which threatens the inner security of some.


Sorry, did I say self-centered? Hmmm...a little 'projection' goin' on?
Quite the contrary, I feel bad for your situation, even tho I don't know all of it. If you lived near, I'd be the 1st to help. 
But for the grace of God...


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

chamoisee,did you always think your life was bombproof. Did you have any gut feeling that things weren't right and other people didn't live the life that you had. I'm curious,because I was around 6 years old when I realized things weren't right with my father. Not saying that I was special smart or something,but it was just something inside that knew.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Yet for some reason, his brother, who was raised in the same enviroment turned out great. That's why I say that there comes a time when you have to stop blaming others and take responsibility for your own actions.


A person is always responsible for their own actions. I wasn't making an excuse for his actions, I was trying to explain we should expect him to act that way and be pleasantly surprised and glad when such a child does go against his teachings.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

chamoisee said:


> If your POTD stuff is intended to set yourself up as some sort of an approving authority, then why do you accuse me of being self centered?
> 
> And for the record, other people decided to criticize me. My intention all along has been to question whether other people are wise in thinking that their little card houses are bombproof. Their response has been to attack, which is natural given that I expressed a thought which threatens the inner security of some.


In my case. I wasn't trying to critize you. I was trying to get you to understand that you and your experiences are not the norm. It was my intent to get you to take more time learning about the subject you were talking about instead of saying everyone else was wrong just because you hadn't seen it with your own eyes.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

God bless ya chamoisee. Hang in there and don't listen to any of the negative carp coming from some of these posters. No one here has walked in your shoes.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

bowdonkey said:


> God bless ya chamoisee. Hang in there and don't listen to any of the negative carp coming from some of these posters. No one here has walked in your shoes.


No, but a few had a similiar pair of shoes. Some threw them away and got another pair. Some kept the shoes and complained to everyone how bad the shoes are.
Can you see a difference?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

pancho said:


> No, but a few had a similiar pair of shoes. Some threw them away and got another pair. Some kept the shoes and complained to everyone how bad the shoes are.
> Can you see a difference?


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

pancho said:


> No, but a few had a similiar pair of shoes. Some threw them away and got another pair. Some kept the shoes and complained to everyone how bad the shoes are.
> Can you see a difference?


No one here had a similar pair of shoes. Lots of thread drift though.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Thread drift was inevitable in this post. The OP said she was intriged by the negative comments about homeless, poor, etc. That was a way of criticizing those who don't immediately fall all over themselves to express sympathy. A better way of phrasing it came later with the accusations of being cruel and self-righteous if any negative comments are made.
Then the old pony of "you never know because you haven't walked in their shoes" variety came trotting out. The reality is that a whole lot of people do know how it is.
The problem is that many people who have had "bad things" happen to them or others they know well and who have overcome them, or at least went around them, can see how it is possible for others to do the same. 
But too frequently the others are too invested in avoiding the hard work involved- things are fine except for that little nagging feeling of wanting confirmation that they are the exceptional people who are excused from work. It simply gets irritating that the majority are expected to fork over the support, both financially and emotionally.
Life has many bad things to throw at most people- a few are too devastating to overcome but they are very rare. Most are overcome by most people most of the time.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

bowdonkey said:


> No one here had a similar pair of shoes. Lots of thread drift though.


Some have had worse, but I keep it to myself and buck up. That's what you do, you buck up.
at some point you realize it's not the other person abusing you any more, it's yourself abusing you.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

SquashNut said:


> Some have had worse, but I keep it to myself and buck up. That's what you do, you buck up.


That is so true- if you want to get through life with as much joy as possible. Everyone deserves a little whine on occasion- somethings are very hard. But constant complaints drag the complainer and everyone around them down.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Now you guys sound self righteous.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

bowdonkey said:


> No one here had a similar pair of shoes. Lots of thread drift though.


Wonder how you know so much about her shoes and other people's shoes?


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

I read her blog.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

bowdonkey said:


> I read her blog.


Why did you decide to believe her by reading her blog and decide not to believe others when they posted their experiences here?


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

pancho said:


> Why did you decide to believe her by reading her blog and decide not to believe others when they posted their experiences here?


good question.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

deleted as it was a remark that should have never been said.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

I didn't say I didn't believe anybody.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

bowdonkey said:


> I didn't say I didn't believe anybody.


well ya you kinda did.

All we are saying is that things happen but it is no reason not to pull your self up and get on with life. The original post made it sound like us woman are just little helpless thngs. We all know that is not right.
Making excuses about what has happened in the past just messes up your future. We all are not little kids any more.
How could of their been a womans movement and still have people in this country beleive like that. now I know some men would like to beleive that muck, but don't us woman know better?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

bowdonkey said:


> I didn't say I didn't believe anybody.


I sure got that impression when you talked about no one here had walked in her shoes, no one had similiar shoes, and everyone else sounding self righteous.
Could you explain what you really meant. Sometimes I just don't understand.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Guys I can't belabor the point much longer. I got a hockey game to go to. I will stand by my statement that no one has walked in her shoes. Yes, some had similar shoes but no one walked the same path, how's that? LMAO, I can't wait for the responses. BFF, help me out here. What am I trying to say?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

bowdonkey said:


> Guys I can't belabor the point much longer. I got a hockey game to go to. I will stand by my statement that no one has walked in her shoes. Yes, some had similar shoes but no one walked the same path, how's that? LMAO, I can't wait for the responses. BFF, help me out here. What am I trying to say?


Sounds good. Everyone has problems, some better some worse. Enjoy the game.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Yes, your right we all had a different pair of shoes. So it's not right for her to imply that welfare is the only recourse or that their isn't a different way.
Just because she choose that way.
I still think that it's wrong to teach the kids that welfare is good.


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

I am careful where I give. But I pray and then I give and I leave it to the Lord how and who gets helped. I do not give to panhandlers or door knockers or phone solictations.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

7thswan said:


> chamoisee,did you always think your life was bombproof. Did you have any gut feeling that things weren't right and other people didn't live the life that you had. I'm curious,because I was around 6 years old when I realized things weren't right with my father. Not saying that I was special smart or something,but it was just something inside that knew.


7th swan, I didn't live with my mom until I was 14....but even as a little kid in an affluent family (dad's family), I always felt that people were missing out on the whole purpose of life, that instead of worrying about money and social status and correctness, keeping up appearances, etc, people should appreciate the small things in life, the simple things, should speak to one another honestly instead of gossiping, and that if only everyone were forthright and true to themselves, the world would be so much easier to live in....

Needless to say, my dad's family did not appreciate my efforts at trying to clear the air and say the things that I thought needed to be said directly instead of in a person's absence! lol........


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

where I want to said:


> Thread drift was inevitable in this post. The OP said she was intrigued by the negative comments about homeless, poor, etc.


Actually I am intrigued by the self perceptions of absolute immunity to poverty or misfortune that I see here. You guys remind me of Job's friends.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

bowdonkey said:


> Guys I can't belabor the point much longer. I got a hockey game to go to. I will stand by my statement that no one has walked in her shoes. Yes, some had similar shoes but no one walked the same path, how's that? LMAO, I can't wait for the responses. BFF, help me out here. What am I trying to say?


Some on here would gladly trade shoes with her, myself included.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

It seems some people think only bad things happen to them, the rest of us are exempt. I would almost asume most all on here have been exposed to some short fall of life. To say other wise would be bogus. It still is how you deal with it that counts.


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## acde (Jul 25, 2011)

chamoisee said:


> The pothead mom I knew had terminal cancer. I can't say that I begrudged her whatever she needed for the chemo and the pain. She didn't sell her food stamps to get the pot. She and her son ate a lot of processed food that I didn't really approve of and her son was obese despite a long walk to school every day....but she also cooked from scratch occasionally.
> 
> I've known other folks who grew their own, etc. Their kids also ate with the food stamps. One family bought their food in bulk, were frugal, etc and would have fit in very well here. To meet them you'd never know they were getting help- I was shocked when I found out.
> 
> I'm not saying there's not abuse. I am saying that it is not the majority of people. I would like for there to be classes on how to cook healthy meals from scratch, mandatory parenting classes, etc.....but that's just me.


This is the kind of attitude that bugs me. Why does there have to be a class to learn how to do things, people need to seek the knowledge for themselves a great place to start is the internet. where is the self respect? if you think it will help you take care of you and yours it's your responsibility to do it not wait for a class to be given to you.


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## acde (Jul 25, 2011)

My childrens father died at 38 We were divorced at the time, I was left with a 16, 13, and 8 yr old. Didn't know anything about welfare and I'm glad I didn't.
when life gives you hard times you have 2 choices, deal with it or not. How long does one let their past circumstances dictate who they are? your future is in your hands embrase it, and let go of the past, by the way, I walked to work when I had no money for gas, learned to cook beans at least 50 different ways, we never went hungry.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

chamoisee said:


> Actually I am intrigued by the self perceptions of absolute immunity to poverty or misfortune that I see here. You guys remind me of Job's friends.


I guess the point has clearly been made for those who want to hear- it is not that the great majority think that they are immune from anything. It is that they have already dealt with bad health, relationships, financial loss, etc issues. It isn't even that they have overcome them. It's just that they have done what they can to take care of the things themselves despite such things.
How could anyone think that not complaining is the same as not experiencing?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

chamoisee said:


> Actually I am intrigued by the self perceptions of absolute immunity to poverty or misfortune that I see here. You guys remind me of Job's friends.


What sort of puzzles me is your complete lack of understanding and caring of other people and the problems they have had throughout their lifes.
From what I have read you actually think your life has been much worse than anybody else. You do not try to understand the lives other people have led. You seem to not care or take the time to learn anything outside of your world. If you have not seen it personally you think it hasn't happened and refuse to learn.
I can understand why you have had some problems in your life. Your refusal to learn and care might be a couple of problems.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

chamoisee said:


> I'm a bit intrigued that many of the people who are so vocal about dissing people who are homeless, receiving food stamps, etc seem to think it could never happen to them, particularly the women who are stay at home wives or moms.


Pride, comes in many forms.
Those who think they are 'above' other because of what they have.
And those who think they are 'above' others because of how they think.



> Ladies, do you really think that your husband is made of foolproof, err-proof titanium? That he can't die or get too injured or sick to work or that you'll always be together? I know, everyone says it can't happen to them, but it happens all the time, you think everything's fine in your marriage and then suddenly it's over and you're on your own.
> 
> I've seen it happen to other ladies, some of whom were fine women, and it happened to me. And frankly, when you have a whole passel of kids, trying to make it without a man is that much harder what with daycare expenses, etc. Most of us have found ourselves with precious few applicable job skills.
> 
> ...


Honestly? Who cares.
*I* have enough on my own plate, in a day, to worry about. I am SURELY not gonna waste precious time and brain space worrying about everyone elses plan.

Contentment is the key. If you are rich, poor, or somewhere inbetween, contentment with what we have is the key to peace. When we are content, the world could crumble down around us, or everyone in the world can be handed a 100.00 bill, and we get NOTHING........and we are still content.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I am beggining to beleive the OP wants us all to roll over and agree with her to make her happy.
I hear the same thing I hear from my mother, excuses and more excuses. I for one do not plan to fail. Why would one plan to fail? That's plain crazy.
I am making plans to be self sufficient. Not only that but to be a helpfull person. part of the solution and not part of the problem. Because i beleive that is what grown ups do. If that makes me a bad person that's too bad.
I have seen plenty of stay at home woman do well after the loss of their mate. As I said before it is in the choices you make.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

I am beginning to think that some people would be perfectly happy if the U.S. was a third world country instead of a civilized society where human life is assumed to have value.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

chamoisee said:


> I am beginning to think that some people would be perfectly happy if the U.S. was a third world country instead of a civilized society where human life is assumed to have value.


If we keep tolerating those who choose not to work, then yes we will be a third world country.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

I also think it's fascinating that this topic has been nearly impossible to discuss without resorting to personal attacks. This illustrates perfectly the point I was trying to make earlier: that the reason people are nasty about poor folks is because they have a subconscious fear of being in that position themselves.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

chamoisee said:


> I also think it's fascinating that this topic has been nearly impossible to discuss without resorting to personal attacks. This illustrates perfectly the point I was trying to make earlier: that the reason people are nasty about poor folks is because they have a subconscious fear of being in that position themselves.


Guesss you started that with the first post. When you start a topic with personal attacks many people think that is the subject you want to talk about. But I guess that is different. You are free to attack others but they should not do the same to you.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Because pointing out that it can happen to any of us is a _personal_ as opposed to a general, attack? 

Understand: my feelings are not at all hurt. I expected the response to be like this. But I do hope that at least a few folks, hopefully including some SAHM's, have been inspired to think about making themselves a safety net of some kind if they don't have one already. I actually had one, a large herd of registered dairy goats that could be sold....but (long story)...that fell apart on me when a so called friend sold off nearly all of them and kept the cash. Should have put my eggs in more than one basket.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I've been in the position you speak about, Living on the streets.
It's because I have a fear of that happening again, I do have a personal safety net. 
If the original subject had been a survival one, rather than the one that was presented, this thread would have been different.
i still cann't see why parents want their kids to grow up the way I did. Beleive me, parents are doing their kids no favors by being on the dole.
personally any one reading this thread should be insulted that you think they don't realize that this thread was any thing but a attempt to make good hard working folks feel guilty for taking care of them selves. Pretty sad if you ask me.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

My mom married a very bright man w/wonderful future. A research chemist, great job, in Chicago, working on his PhD. He was struck by a car & killed when I was 2.
We went to live w/g'parents in a town of 200 in the middle of KS. My mom was bitter, hurt, sad. She went to work, having to commute, & my g'ma & great g'ma took care of me. My g'pa died when I was 8.
Coulda been a big hard luck story. But we all managed. I never thought I was deprived or underprivileged. Went to a private school!
My mom DID gripe a lot...always thought that was just her, I thought things were ok.

So, this is not for sympathy but for others to see that all lives are different.

I would suggest the OP listen to Sonshine's life. And to Billie's life-I think her story is still in CF.

Who would each one of us 'trade' with?? Does anyone believe that all lives should be so 'even & fair' that anyone would want to reach in a 'bucket' and pull a 'life' and change w/it b/c everyone has the exact same circumstances?


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Contentment is the key. If you are rich, poor, or somewhere inbetween, contentment with what we have is the key to peace.


I imagine it would be pretty hard to feel content if your children were crying because they're hungry.

Just sayin' ...


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

chamoisee said:


> I also think it's fascinating that this topic has been nearly impossible to discuss without resorting to personal attacks. This illustrates perfectly the point I was trying to make earlier: that the reason people are nasty about poor folks is because they have a subconscious fear of being in that position themselves.


Not necessarily a fear of being poor,but not wanting to fail-fail at feeding ones family,fail at holding a job,fail at being a good/successful parent.... These are the reasons many think ahead. We are supposed to be taught about success and failure, one reason Sports are so good for children. Now everyone gets a Trophy and the score isn't even counted-this does not lead to a learning experience.Having subconscious fears are not a bad thing,they are part of being normal. It's what a person does with those fears-that makes them who they are. I may fear drowning,but that shouldn't keep me from learning to swim.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

willow_girl said:


> I imagine it would be pretty hard to feel content if your children were crying because they're hungry.
> 
> Just sayin' ...


But to say the only solution is to have others feed your kids is wrong.
Especilly when you make a job out of getting welfare. Any more than a year and it's time to get up off your hiney and feed your own kids, before they learn that food stamps can be a way of life.
Welfare was meant to give people a hand up, not to raise your kids till they leave home. Besides, there is other families that could use some help too. These people who stay on it for years and years are just plain selfish.

There are people out there hurting right now that pay into the system and need the help ( or just plain deserve to keep their own pay check.). Don't their kids deserve help? Why should one family get help for years and years?What is so special about the welfare queens kids?
I also think part of the reason they are inflating our grocery prices is to pay for those food stamps and extended unemployment, so the workers are paying twice through inflation and taxes to feed the food stamp recipients. Tell me where that is fair.
At some point the parents need to feed their own kids.

If you think about it it's this providing food stamps to every one and inflation that could be the cause of alot of peoples loss of their safety net. I beleive most people have lost at least 20 percent of their savings because we are trying to feed so many that don't seem to have the gumption to feed themselves.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> But to say the only solution is to have others feed your kids is wrong.


Who said that? Certainly not me. :shrug:


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> I imagine it would be pretty hard to feel content if your children were crying because they're hungry.
> 
> Just sayin' ...


I was really addressing the issue of people moaning about what others have, and what they themselves feel entitled too.



> Contentment is the key. If you are rich, poor, or somewhere inbetween, contentment with what we have is the key to peace. When we are content, the world could crumble down around us, or *everyone in the world can be handed a 100.00 bill, and we get NOTHING..*......and we are still content.


I would never be content having children hungry. I would live in a barn with a cow, and shovel poop for the money to buy food / or barter my services for food.
It is never acceptable to sit on ones bottom and expect SOMEONE ELSE to feed MY children.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

chamoisee said:


> I also think it's fascinating that this topic has been nearly impossible to discuss without resorting to personal attacks. This illustrates perfectly the point I was trying to make earlier: that the reason people are nasty about poor folks is because they have a subconscious fear of being in that position themselves.


Personal attacks? I must've missed them ALL. How many out of...over 100 posts?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

willow_girl said:


> I imagine it would be pretty hard to feel content if your children were crying because they're hungry.
> 
> Just sayin' ...


Talk to the ones who lost all their children...


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I hate to say this, but I see a future when people in this country give up on the welfare recipients, because they were pushed to far. I just hope it happens before they pull us all down with them.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

willow_girl said:


> I imagine it would be pretty hard to feel content if your children were crying because they're hungry.
> 
> Just sayin' ...


She can be content that she stills has her children. There is always something we can be content in, but some are only content when they are complaining about how bad their life has been.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

This explains how much food stamps you can get in Idaho.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1269

Those who abuse the system could be commiting a felony, right?


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Sonshine said:


> She can be content that she stills has her children. There is always something we can be content in, but some are only content when they are complaining about how bad their life has been.


I don't recall saying that I am discontented or even complaining that my life has been all bad. I agree with you- one has to find contentment and happiness in small doses, not wait for everything to be perfect. 

But. That's sort of beside the point here. As is the concept of sitting on one's butt and expecting someone else to feed one's kids. The simple fact is that even if you can get a job, it isn't always possible to pay the rent, bills and buy food. I don't see any shame in accepting help if you are doing your darnedest and still coming up short. That's a little different in my mind than simply watching TV all day and not even trying. 

Things could be a lot worse for me and I am glad that they are not. I saw a crummy little house with two very marginal bedrooms, very musty and old smelling, renting for $650 a month. I have friends living in tiny little places that are not much bigger than a closet for $300+ a month. Given that the entry-level jobs one can get around here are often not full time and you are darned lucky to even get a part time job......I know an awful lot of people who are just barely making ends meet. And if they get hit by a drunk driver or had a heart attack or whatever....well, then things really fall apart.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

The problem is those that are taking those food stamps are causing the groceries to go up for every one else, so it's not cool that you take them, with out working for them.
People on food stamps are taking from other people who also the working poor. Same as people voting for school levys, that raise other peoples property taxes. So what if you live in a tiny house. That's part of life if you don't like it get a better job, work extra hours or live with it.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

SquashNut said:


> The problem is those that are taking those food stamps are causing the groceries to go up for every one else, .


Food stamps cause increasing grocery costs????????? How is that??


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

chamoisee said:


> I don't recall saying that I am discontented or even complaining that my life has been all bad. I agree with you- one has to find contentment and happiness in small doses, not wait for everything to be perfect.
> 
> But. That's sort of beside the point here. As is the concept of sitting on one's butt and expecting someone else to feed one's kids. The simple fact is that even if you can get a job, it isn't always possible to pay the rent, bills and buy food. I don't see any shame in accepting help if you are doing your darnedest and still coming up short. That's a little different in my mind than simply watching TV all day and not even trying.
> 
> Things could be a lot worse for me and I am glad that they are not. I saw a crummy little house with two very marginal bedrooms, very musty and old smelling, renting for $650 a month. I have friends living in tiny little places that are not much bigger than a closet for $300+ a month. Given that the entry-level jobs one can get around here are often not full time and you are darned lucky to even get a part time job......I know an awful lot of people who are just barely making ends meet. And if they get hit by a drunk driver or had a heart attack or whatever....well, then things really fall apart.


This is just my opinion as I have followed this thread. I could be wrong, but it won't be the first time. I have not read your blog, but from what I see others writing and your own responses I get the feeling that you are bemoaning your lot in life and don't believe others understand what real life is like for someone who has had a rough life. I said from the start that I agree that there are times that people need temporary help, but take issue with people who blame things that have happened in their life for their inability to support their family. None of us can change what has happened in our past, but we can change our attitude towards it and how we respond. I don't know what kind of assistance you may or may not be recieving, or how long you have been getting it, but I have seen and heard time and time again about people that blame their bad childhood on the reasons they deserve a handout from others. I have been homeless. I didn't like it and swore I would never have to live in my car again. So, there have been times I've worked 3 jobs and lived off of mac and cheese and ground beef and beans. It really bothers me when people talk about all the kids they are responsible for. I have buried 4 kids and believe me, if they were still alive I would not stop working until I knew their needs were met. I would continue to learn so that I could get a better paying job. Our lives are what we make it. Regardless of a person's upbringing, bottom line is, as an adult, we are responsible for our lives as well as our children's lives. I have never gotten help from the government, even on my worse day, but I don't begrudge those who do on a temporary basis, and I don't mean a year or two.

Just wanted to add, in regards to the OP, if I was to lose my DH I would still manage to make it and take care of our DS. I know it wouldn't be easy since my health has been failing, but I'm a fighter and no matter how bad things have gotten, I've made it through them.


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## LearningLife (Aug 11, 2010)

chamoisee said:


> I'm a bit intrigued that many of the people who are so vocal about dissing people who are homeless, receiving food stamps, etc seem to think it could never happen to them, particularly the women who are stay at home wives or moms.
> 
> Ladies, do you really think that your husband is made of foolproof, err-proof titanium? That he can't die or get too injured or sick to work or that you'll always be together? I know, everyone says it can't happen to them, but it happens all the time, you think everything's fine in your marriage and then suddenly it's over and you're on your own.
> 
> ...


I've read all of the posts here, but I won't claim to remember all that anyone has said. The longer the thread goes, the more circular it seems to get. So I thought I'd go back to the OP and just address my thoughts on that. Chamoisee, you use direct addresses to us, terms like "Ladies" and "you", so I will answer personally with my own experiences and thoughts.

To be honest, the only "dissing" of the homeless, food stamp recipients, etc. I have seen on here has been when addressing habitual abusers of the system - those who see federal assistance as a lifestyle as opposed to a band-aid. I have never seen anyone on here openly belittle anyone who has had the need to ask for help. On the contrary, I have seen many times when HT members have suggested to others who talk about difficult times that they see what assistance is available to help them get back on their feet. I have seen several instances when people have expressed their thoughts on our broken system, but none of them implicated those aid recipients who genuinely needed help.

I do agree that many people do not make plans for their own security should something traumatic happen in their lives, but my impression of most people here would lead me to believe that they have moved beyond that adolescent invincibility phase. Many of us have lived through very difficult situations - loss of a spouse or child, job loss, homelessness, hunger, poverty, abuse. The stories are here, as are the subsequent stories of survival. I daresay that many people here have lived through similar circumstances but choose not to share them here. Your post seems to assume that none of us have thought that these things could happen to us, yet for many, they already have. Some have accepted assistance available to them to help them get through; others have "toughed it out" without assistance. Each person must choose his/her own method of survival as it fits his/her conscience, convictions, and consequences. However, that survival should not be contingent upon a lifelong dependency on taxpayers.

Personally, my "attitude about poverty" did not change when I found myself there. DH and I accepted as little help as possible when we needed it. We qualified for and accepted food vouchers from WIC in order to feed our two little ones when DH lost his job. We also qualified for, but did not accept, food stamps. My income was enough to pay the rent and buy meager groceries. We couldn't afford to heat our crappy little rental house with the electric heat, so we worked our butts off to have enough firewood. We did enroll our older DS in Head Start (which I consider government-funded day care) so that I would be free to go back to school during the day and work at night. That allowed me to finish my degree and get a job that would support us even without an income for DH if needed. The help was there when we needed it, and when we no longer needed it, we got out of the system. We needed assistance for a total of about two years, and we have both paid into it for approximately 25 years. I don't think we abused the system; I think we used the help when we needed it and got out. I've always thought that's the way it is intended to work, and I still do.

To assume that people's attitudes here are elitist (which is the way your post sounds) is, I believe, a gross misunderstanding and generalization. Lots of us here - this is a homesteading forum, after all - live lives of simplicity and, to some degree, poverty by choice, eschewing material gain and fixation in favor of the satisfaction of supporting ourselves through our own hard work, sweat, and dedication to a self-sufficient lifestyle. When we see the waste and abuse that is evident in federally funded aid programs, it is frustrating to us that people allow it to happen. You're right, it is not an ideal world, and it will probably never be, but that shouldn't prevent people from striving to make it so.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

LearningLife said:


> I've read all of the posts here, but I won't claim to remember all that anyone has said. The longer the thread goes, the more circular it seems to get. So I thought I'd go back to the OP and just address my thoughts on that. Chamoisee, you use direct addresses to us, terms like "Ladies" and "you", so I will answer personally with my own experiences and thoughts.
> 
> To be honest, the only "dissing" of the homeless, food stamp recipients, etc. I have seen on here has been when addressing habitual abusers of the system - those who see federal assistance as a lifestyle as opposed to a band-aid. I have never seen anyone on here openly belittle anyone who has had the need to ask for help. On the contrary, I have seen many times when HT members have suggested to others who talk about difficult times that they see what assistance is available to help them get back on their feet. I have seen several instances when people have expressed their thoughts on our broken system, but none of them implicated those aid recipients who genuinely needed help.
> 
> ...


I think this should be awarded Post of the Day.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Sonshine said:


> I think this should be awarded Post of the Day.



Agreed!! :rock:


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Learning Life - outstanding post!

I've always been expecting Homesteading forums to be over run with strong, individual, do-it-yourself people.

The ones that think a life time of help, rather than a period of help to get ready to be independent, is really astonishing to find here. At least to me.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Dutchie said:


> Food stamps cause increasing grocery costs????????? How is that??


QE3. They are making fake cash to pay for the welfare programs. Didn't you know all the taxes that are collected in this country are just enough to pay for Medicare, the rest of the programs are either payed for with borrowed or printed money.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Sonshine said:


> I think this should be awarded Post of the Day.


Me too.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

What i am seeing is more and more people who are taking on second jobs to make things meet. except the welfare recipients.
Some of those second jobs can be as little as increasing your garden or having your kid mow a lawn to buy his own jeans for school. And as time goes by it's getting so it isn't enough. you have to add another and another. Say no to things your family needs more and more. But they don't even know what the word no means.
Like i say they inflate the price of our groceries so dh has to work extra hours, I've increased my garden (till there is no more room out there). Then they pass the school levy. I thought it was to feed the kids breakfast and lunch. But apperently I was wrong. It is to give the over paid union teachers a raise???? And it was voted in by non working people. They don't seem to understand their are people out here who are just barely hanging on.
Dh and i live on about $500 a month so the $35 added to my home taxes hit hard. The doubling in price of our groceries and fuel costs is just crazy.
And then the OP has the whatever to tell us that food should be more expensive, so we can raise more of it ourselves. please tell me what my neighbors who are 82 are going to do about that. Tell me what i am going to do about that. Each year becomes harder and harder for me to produce a garden, yet alone fill the canning jars for our winter use. 
I am sure I am not the only one going through this, but It's like they are saying to heck with you as long as i get what i need. In my book they are the inhumane ones.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

SquashNut said:


> Me too.


Me too. POTDA.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I forgot to add: what money do you think people were prepping with? This welfare thing has inflated away much of the possibility of some of us being able to prep.
Should we start a thread on what i could have bought for the $35 they tacked on to my properperty taxes, or the 50% more I have to pay for my groceries? 
Is the word ironic? I guess I could look it up. (sorry I am not laughing)


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

> To be honest, the only "dissing" of the homeless, food stamp recipients, etc. I have seen on here has been when addressing habitual abusers of the system - those who see federal assistance as a lifestyle as opposed to a band-aid. I have never seen anyone on here openly belittle anyone who has had the need to ask for help. On the contrary, I have seen many times when HT members have suggested to others who talk about difficult times that they see what assistance is available to help them get back on their feet. I have seen several instances when people have expressed their thoughts on our broken system, but none of them implicated those aid recipients who genuinely needed help.


I think it must be a difference in perception then, a matter of seeing the glass half full or half empty. And in the end, the old saying, you can't make everyone happy all of the time, applies here as well as anywhere. 

At any rate, I am glad your situation has improved and I wish you a happy holiday.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Closed as this is the same arguments several different times, repeatedly. And was getting into opinions looking awfully close to personal insults, back and forth.


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