# healthcare cost and insurance



## collegeboundgal (Jul 17, 2005)

I think about retirement. A lot. I am always reading articles and comments about it, both my husband and I contribute 15% then company match of 100% the first 3% cutting down to, I think, .25% to the full 6%. 
I dream of early retirement. Like in our 50's early retirement. We are 37 and 38 now. The one thing that I think will keep us working longer than I want is cost of healthcare and/or insurance. As self pay insurance for the two of us, healthy, no daily medication needed, non-smokers is somewhere in the $1200/month range. I wonder what it's going to look like in 15-20 years as it has changed SO much within my own short lifetime. 
I often wonder how many older folks really could retire early if they had affordable health insurance. Most likely a LOT. After speaking to older coworkers and family, they are working for the insurance. This led me to think, I don't see how politicians can allow affordable health insurance without people continuing to work. I think there would be a MASSIVE leave of workers from the workforce. That is a lot of lost SS and tax revenue from their paychecks. What do you think?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Mine would have more than doubled in the last three years . It was $644 going to over $800 until I cancelled. It would now be over $1400. That's only for me at 54yrs.


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## collegeboundgal (Jul 17, 2005)

I am assuming you are referring to obamacare? Back when my MIL was still working (for the insurance) I asked her why she didn't retire then pay for the obamacare. The way I understood it you could only qualify for it if you couldn't get insurance through work? I know for my aunt and uncle who are both full time farmers it was SO nice the first year, but kept going up as well... Since it wasn't even on the radar for me I never really payed much attention to it. Why did it keep going up and why SO MUCH!?!


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

collegeboundgal said:


> I am assuming you are referring to obamacare? Back when my MIL was still working (for the insurance) I asked her why she didn't retire then pay for the obamacare. The way I understood it you could only qualify for it if you couldn't get insurance through work? I know for my aunt and uncle who are both full time farmers it was SO nice the first year, but kept going up as well... Since it wasn't even on the radar for me I never really payed much attention to it. Why did it keep going up and why SO MUCH!?!


I never tried that. I don't believe in doing business with the government. I had a great plan through BC/BS but when the ACA came along they started sky rocketing. I put all my properties in a LLC. I do have an equity line of credit for $200,000. If I need more than that done I will probably just be taking a dirt nap....


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I'm in your age group, 39. I wouldn't be able to retire early without access to the VA. Health insurance costs are just plain scary.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I retired a little over a year ago. I am 58, soon to be 59. I don't take medicine, and am in good health. It would cost me about $600 per month for a very good plan.

My wife had breast cancer about 6 years ago. Open market private packages that allow preexisting conditions for her are about $1,500 month. It takes 10 years with no occurrence for her cancer to not be consider preexisting. She is working a very low pay job to get insurance.

We will be looking at how much 0bamaCare cost here soon. She will quit working if we qualify for it. I hate to do it, but that is the environment the country is in right now. The threshold for a subsidy is $64K. If she quits work we can squeak under that.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> I retired a little over a year ago. I am 58, soon to be 59. I don't take medicine, and am in good health. It would cost me about $600 per month for a very good plan.
> 
> My wife had breast cancer about 6 years ago. Open market private packages that allow preexisting conditions for her are about $1,500 month. It takes 10 years with no occurrence for her cancer to not be consider preexisting. She is working a very low pay job to get insurance.
> 
> We will be looking at how much 0bamaCare cost here soon. She will quit working if we qualify for it. I hate to do it, but that is the environment the country is in right now. The threshold for a subsidy is $64K. If she quits work we can squeak under that.


Good luck. I've read that there is a push to remove the preexisting condition provision from the ACA. 

BTW, is the 0 (zero) instead of an O in Obamacare just a slip?


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## collegeboundgal (Jul 17, 2005)

HDRider said:


> I retired a little over a year ago. I am 58, soon to be 59. I don't take medicine, and am in good health. It would cost me about $600 per month for a very good plan.
> 
> My wife had breast cancer about 6 years ago. Open market private packages that allow preexisting conditions for her are about $1,500 month. It takes 10 years with no occurrence for her cancer to not be consider preexisting. She is working a very low pay job to get insurance.
> 
> We will be looking at how much 0bamaCare cost here soon. She will quit working if we qualify for it. I hate to do it, but that is the environment the country is in right now. The threshold for a subsidy is $64K. If she quits work we can squeak under that.


Insurance prices are insane. The cost of healthcare is insane. I work in a hospital and our insurance covers carp. Guess our biggest benefit is I usually have a real good idea on what to do when something happens so we don't go to the doc. like, ever... (unless it's broken or I can't get the bleeding stopped. lol.) It's killing me right now because I am having to take steroid shots and get fitted for shoe inserts due to a bone spur on my heel. Couldn't take the pain anymore after nearly 6 months. Insurance is covering 0% for the inserts and who knows how much for the shots... Tell me why and what for I and my employer are paying something like $600 month? 

So to get obamacare the house hold income needs to be $64k or lower? What if she can qualify for spouse insurance through your work? Would that hinder her from getting it?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

collegeboundgal said:


> Insurance prices are insane. The cost of healthcare is insane. I work in a hospital and our insurance covers carp. Guess our biggest benefit is I usually have a real good idea on what to do when something happens so we don't go to the doc. like, ever... (unless it's broken or I can't get the bleeding stopped. lol.) It's killing me right now because I am having to take steroid shots and get fitted for shoe inserts due to a bone spur on my heel. Couldn't take the pain anymore after nearly 6 months. Insurance is covering 0% for the inserts and who knows how much for the shots... Tell me why and what for I and my employer are paying something like $600 month?
> 
> So to get obamacare the house hold income needs to be $64k or lower? What if she can qualify for spouse insurance through your work? Would that hinder her from getting it?


I am self employed


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Good luck. I've read that there is a push to remove the preexisting condition provision from the ACA.
> 
> BTW, is the 0 (zero) instead of an O in Obamacare just a slip?


Then I would go to the open market. I think things will settle down 0nce all the uncertainty is gone. It only got sky high after 0bamaCare.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

no really said:


> I'm in your age group, 39. I wouldn't be able to retire early without access to the VA. Health insurance costs are just plain scary.


I was in the military and had injury in combat. My VA care is free. I retired before BO was president and have medicare. Medicare pays for 80% of my health care if i use it. When i work for the oil company for 30 years my company insurance paid for all my health care. I have had 5 heart operations in the last 7 years at no cost to me. Insurances paid it all.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

HDRider said:


> Then I would go to the open market. I think things will settle down 0nce all the uncertainty is gone. It only got sky high after 0bamaCare.


Trump didn't like the affordable care act. He said he would fix it with a much better plan. LOL. 
SO now the government has decided to keep it as it is the best plan going at this time.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

gerold said:


> I was in the military and had injury in combat. My VA care is free. I retired before BO was president and have medicare. Medicare pays for 80% of my health care if i use it. When i work for the oil company for 30 years my company insurance paid for all my health care. I have had 5 heart operations in the last 7 years at no cost to me. Insurances paid it all.


Yep, my VA is great. My plan is to retire from the job I have now at 45 when I'm eligible, than do contract work. Couldn't do it if I didn't have VA.


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## collegeboundgal (Jul 17, 2005)

But do you think they (TPTB) _can't_ make health insurance affordable due to losing revenue from the employed? I would think it would be a rather large chunk of change...


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

collegeboundgal said:


> Insurance prices are insane. The cost of healthcare is insane.
> 
> ?



That's because there *is* insurance. When "someone else" is paying, demand goes up. When demand goes up, prices go up. Most doctors only made mediocre livings prior to Medicare. Unions demanded "benefits" in the 50s (they had already pushed wages to the limit earlier.) With people now getting insurance coverage thru work/union and then Medicare coming on line, health costs started to skyrocket. (Complex situation because technology advances also increased costs, then add in malpractice- a new concept in the '70s onward.)

$1200/month is $14,400/yr (!!). Even if you saved it in tin cans buried in the backyard, you'd still have $140,400 to cover your med costs after 10 yrs-- way more if invested.

BTW- the only treatment you really need for a heel spur is a sponge with a hole cut in it and stuck in your shoe to take the weight off the spur. This is a prime example of unrealistic expectations from medical care--and you go for it because it's paid for.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> I retired a little over a year ago. I am 58, soon to be 59. I don't take medicine, and am in good health. It would cost me about $600 per month for a very good plan.
> 
> My wife had breast cancer about 6 years ago. Open market private packages that allow preexisting conditions for her are about $1,500 month. It takes 10 years with no occurrence for her cancer to not be consider preexisting. She is working a very low pay job to get insurance.
> 
> We will be looking at how much 0bamaCare cost here soon. She will quit working if we qualify for it. I hate to do it, but that is the environment the country is in right now. The threshold for a subsidy is $64K. If she quits work we can squeak under that.


Jeez I took you to be younger. I hope it all works out for you and your wife.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

doc- said:


> That's because there *is* insurance. When "someone else" is paying, demand goes up. When demand goes up, prices go up. Most doctors only made mediocre livings prior to Medicare. Unions demanded "benefits" in the 50s (they had already pushed wages to the limit earlier.) With people now getting insurance coverage thru work/union and then Medicare coming on line, health costs started to skyrocket. (Complex situation because technology advances also increased costs, then add in malpractice- a new concept in the '70s onward.)
> 
> $1200/month is $14,400/yr (!!). Even if you saved it in tin cans buried in the backyard, you'd still have $140,400 to cover your med costs after 10 yrs-- way more if invested.
> 
> BTW- the only treatment you really need for a heel spur is a sponge with a hole cut in it and stuck in your shoe to take the weight off the spur. This is a prime example of unrealistic expectations from medical care--and you go for it because it's paid for.


I don’t remember doctors making mediocre money. 

And those darn unions, getting benefits for their members.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

keenataz said:


> I don’t remember doctors making mediocre money.
> 
> And those darn unions, getting benefits for their members.


Them unions did make the wages go up a bit. People could then afford to buy a house in the 50's.  I had to pay my employees 15 buck an hour in 1980. However i did make lots of money with good employees Now i have two young people helping with my logging/sawmill business they don't want union wages. I pay them piece work. They earn 40 bucks an hour and just work 30 hour a week. 2 young ladies from 4H learning how to raise farm animals do a lot of part-time work for me. I pay them extra good for their help as they are well worth it. Both have their own Sows now. 
I do carry health care and life insurances on my employee. It is a bit high but well worth it.


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

doc- said:


> That's because there *is* insurance. When "someone else" is paying, demand goes up. When demand goes up, prices go up. Most doctors only made mediocre livings prior to Medicare. Unions demanded "benefits" in the 50s (they had already pushed wages to the limit earlier.) With people now getting insurance coverage thru work/union and then Medicare coming on line, health costs started to skyrocket. (Complex situation because technology advances also increased costs, then add in malpractice- a new concept in the '70s onward.)
> 
> $1200/month is $14,400/yr (!!). Even if you saved it in tin cans buried in the backyard, you'd still have $140,400 to cover your med costs after 10 yrs-- way more if invested.
> 
> BTW- the only treatment you really need for a heel spur is a sponge with a hole cut in it and stuck in your shoe to take the weight off the spur. This is a prime example of unrealistic expectations from medical care--and you go for it because it's paid for.


My family has decided to go for the tin can option for 2019 it’s just what makes since for us. Sick of paying in each month then paying in again at the doctor why have ins if it doesn’t pay for anything. We will take our chances bc that’s what we can afford and much less headaches without insurance.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Insurance is the symptom, not the cause. As long as our healthcare system is controlled by big pharma and big healthcare, costs will continue to increase at a faster and faster pace. If healthcare was actually prevention and curing of disease instead of treating symptoms, health insurance would be a fraction of what it is today.

The other day I had an idea. What if doctors were required to offer non drug treatment whenever it had been proven to be at least as effective as drug treatment? A large part of the cost of healthcare is we get put on drugs that we have to take for the rest of our lives at ever increasing dosages, without ever getting better.

I just had an appointment with a cardiologist I really liked for my heart condition, but even though my current 1 med keeps my BP under control, he wanted me to stop it and take 2 or 3 others instead. That's after I spent a year weaning myself from the 2 meds he wanted me to start taking again. It's funny how a doctor can be an expert on 1 thing and almost clueless on another.

If I had to buy insurance I would see if I could get a concierge doctor (flat fee) plus a catastrophic policy.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Txyogagirl said:


> My family has decided to go for the tin can option for 2019 it’s just what makes since for us. Sick of paying in each month then paying in again at the doctor why have ins if it doesn’t pay for anything. We will take our chances bc that’s what we can afford and much less headaches without insurance.


Good luck. Hope you never have to dip into your tin can.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

keenataz said:


> Jeez I took you to be younger. I hope it all works out for you and your wife.


Thanks, on all counts. I am young at heart and in my mind. My body knows how old I am very well.


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## Pyrpup2016 (Sep 11, 2016)

What doesn't make the news is that the Affordable Care Act had provisions in it for subsidies to be paid to the insurance companies for a few years until enough people signed up - especially younger ones _ to make it self sufficient. During the excitement of the 2016 election, that part was voted out. It explains why the premiums have gone up so much - what had been written in to be a transitional deal to protect the insurance companies was written out, so they've retaliated. For many, the ACA was a lifesaver - and it still works for many, even with it's drawbacks. It could be fixed so easily to be functional .


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Good luck. Hope you never have to dip into your tin can.


Hope I never have to make an insurance claim either.
Followed a discussion once on whether some folks should buy extended warranties. Was it worth it to lay out the extra money on their car, RV, electronics. The general consensus is that it is a big money maker for the policy issuer and a low ROI to the purchaser.
The wiser method would be, if the consumer was concerned about major mechanical failures, to set money aside each month that they might have otherwise given to the seller and keep it in escrow should a repair issue arise. Giving it to an outside agency means the money is gone, whether they ever file a claim or not; keeping it in their hands means that, if they manage to make it thru some future point in time without any large issues, they could cash out and spend/reinvest their own money as they wish.
Now, your old Ford pickup isn't the same as your wife, at least most won't admit to it, but the principal can be the same.
Tin canning for the diligent can be a positive alternative to deductibles, Doctor choice, claim denials and generally allowing someone else to dictate your health options. Just saying...


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Pyrpup2016 said:


> It could be fixed so easily to be functional .


It certainly could. Just limit all health care providers to $10 per hour maximum wages. That of course would apply to doctors and surgeons, for those positions not requiring those highly educated skills like nurses, emts, and others wages could be scaled back accordingly. Say to something in the $3 to $5 per hour range.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> Hope I never have to make an insurance claim either.
> Followed a discussion once on whether some folks should buy extended warranties. Was it worth it to lay out the extra money on their car, RV, electronics. The general consensus is that it is a big money maker for the policy issuer and a low ROI to the purchaser.
> The wiser method would be, if the consumer was concerned about major mechanical failures, to set money aside each month that they might have otherwise given to the seller and keep it in escrow should a repair issue arise. Giving it to an outside agency means the money is gone, whether they ever file a claim or not; keeping it in their hands means that, if they manage to make it thru some future point in time without any large issues, they could cash out and spend/reinvest their own money as they wish.
> Now, your old Ford pickup isn't the same as your wife, at least most won't admit to it, but the principal can be the same.
> Tin canning for the diligent can be a positive alternative to deductibles, Doctor choice, claim denials and generally allowing someone else to dictate your health options. Just saying...


Maybe your old ford pickup isn't worthy of proper care. Mine is!  heres a couple recent photos, crowding 100k miles and getting the job done!


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

Was talking to my sister yesterday. Doc ordered a inhaler for her COPD. With her drug coverage, and with her deductable, it will still cost her almost $400 out of pocket for *one* inhaler every month. She says if she has to, she can pay it. I asked if she could pay it in 10 years?

AllDay Chemist sells the inhaler for eight dollars and change.

Mon


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

frogmammy said:


> Was talking to my sister yesterday. Doc ordered a inhaler for her COPD. With her drug coverage, and with her deductable, it will still cost her almost $400 out of pocket for *one* inhaler every month. She says if she has to, she can pay it. I asked if she could pay it in 10 years?
> 
> AllDay Chemist sells the inhaler for eight dollars and change.
> 
> Mon


That’s ridiculous. And I am not claiming Canadian drug prices are great. But my wife gets two a month and without insurance they total $34.


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## alida (Feb 8, 2015)

frogmammy said:


> Was talking to my sister yesterday. Doc ordered a inhaler for her COPD. With her drug coverage, and with her deductable, it will still cost her almost $400 out of pocket for *one* inhaler every month. She says if she has to, she can pay it. I asked if she could pay it in 10 years?
> 
> AllDay Chemist sells the inhaler for eight dollars and change.
> 
> Mon


I'm not at all familiar with the US medical system, but given the extremely high cost of the inhaler going through her insurers coverage and the very low cost through All Day Chemists for the exact same thing - could she not go to the All Day Chemists instead?


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

All Day Chemist is in India.

And yes, we CAN order from them here in the US (so far).

She will not order drugs from a third world country, she says. 

Mon


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## alida (Feb 8, 2015)

frogmammy said:


> All Day Chemist is in India.
> 
> And yes, we CAN order from them here in the US (so far).
> 
> ...


Ah, okay. My health plan doesn't allow for reimbursements for any online prescriptions, overseas or here in North America. I can buy online and pay myself but haven't done so...yet.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

I purchased a medium-deductible policy through the agent that handles my car and house insurance - about $250 a month, and I'm a 54-year-old breast cancer survivor. It's Blue Cross, which has a bad reputation but over the past year, it has paid claims without a speck of hassle.

Don't use the exchange if you can avoid it, and inquiring through your agent doesn't hurt.


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

GTX63 said:


> Hope I never have to make an insurance claim either.
> Followed a discussion once on whether some folks should buy extended warranties. Was it worth it to lay out the extra money on their car, RV, electronics. The general consensus is that it is a big money maker for the policy issuer and a low ROI to the purchaser.
> The wiser method would be, if the consumer was concerned about major mechanical failures, to set money aside each month that they might have otherwise given to the seller and keep it in escrow should a repair issue arise. Giving it to an outside agency means the money is gone, whether they ever file a claim or not; keeping it in their hands means that, if they manage to make it thru some future point in time without any large issues, they could cash out and spend/reinvest their own money as they wish.
> Now, your old Ford pickup isn't the same as your wife, at least most won't admit to it, but the principal can be the same.
> Tin canning for the diligent can be a positive alternative to deductibles, Doctor choice, claim denials and generally allowing someone else to dictate your health options. Just saying...


Totally how I feel it just doesn’t make sense. They only care about making money. I have had the biggest headache all year at any appt I go to I have to fill out cash pay not insured forms yet I paid 6k in premium it’s Like legal robbery. Since I do have ins they can’t give me the non insured rate which if I would have knew that then I would have never told them I had ins. For one pediatrician check up it’s 315.00 and shots are 908.00. But only 100 in change applies to my deductible If I cancel my policy I can get that same service for 105.00 total. And pocket the 1,100 and that’s only for one appt I don’t see how other don’t see how they are getting robbed.


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Good luck. Hope you never have to dip into your tin can.


Right I dip into now and I have insurance. What’s the difference?


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

I have never had insurance and paid my own way.....when something tragic happens I can be taken care of just like the ones that get taken in all the time for free who chose to do crack/meth and heroin or the illegals who get treated all the time here for free.

I am almost 50 and have been to the doctors less than what I can count on one hand...…..I am not paying insane rates for a failed health care system......between that and insane property tax, people will be slaves to the government their entire lives here soon.

When we bought out first house and new car the payments were less than 500 a month for both in the late 80`s.....now its more than that for property tax now when the house is paid off......about 6K per year, tack on some inflated insurance premium and it will take more than a fulltime wallmart greeter earns in a year to pay both.

No wonder soo many elderly are found dead in the summer or frozen in the winter with the heat and air turned off eating cat food.…..bigger better faster more has left this country a moral wasteland.

Funny how when this country had almost no governmental help it was the most prosperous in the world and the more "Help" we get from them, the worse this country gets...….another 20 years of regulations and mandates should just about get us to socialism or at least working for the government in proxy full time by adding up the mandatory fees imposed on living so you stay afloat.

How people thought it was a good idea for "agencies" to collect money and distribute it to the proper places is beyond me. People lived and managed to make it for hundreds of years without oversight/regulations etc as soon as the government decided to make policies and intervene for the good of the people it all went to poo...…


There`s 3 things a person can do....complain about it....try to change it...... or do not participate in it......all 3 carry different rewards and consequences......those choices will be reduced in the future, they already want to and have made it quasi illegal to not own/live in a house......soon many more mandates for your own good will decreed by our dictators.

It has only accelerated and gotten worse.....the freedoms are being squeezed away one by one and replaced with mandates...….scariest part is the newest generation does not want or miss these freedoms as this is what they were born into and they know no other way. You cant miss what you never had,...…


The destination is clear, its the time frame and road that leads there is what still remains a mystery.....the trend has not wavered and the destination is known...…….no matter what we choose to believe the facts remain the same. The trajectory is clear to see for any who choose to look.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

shawnlee said:


> Funny how when this country had almost no governmental help it was the most prosperous in the world and the more "Help" we get from them, the worse this country gets...….another 20 years of regulations and mandates should just about get us to socialism or at least working for the government in proxy full time by adding up the mandatory fees imposed on living so you stay afloat.


Many of those who would criticize your thinking as insensitive to the plight of the poor may not, or choose not, to recall that at one time, not so long ago, it wasn't "The government or nothing". There were, and are today, options outside of bureaucratic agencies; private entities, both secular and faith based that do very good things and are really only limited because they are overshadowed by Uncle Sugar and his "bean for every pot" approach to soothing the peasants. Government backed programs, in my experience, including working on the inside, tend to be more of a snare than a safety net.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I got into a 401 K plan as soon as they became available, company didn't match any of what I put in and we had a limit all the time I was working. Seem to remember 9000.00 first few years and slowly raised to 12,000 by the time I retired at 54 but would turn 55 in that year. Goisloine was 135.9 cents a gallon then. Never for seen it riseing to nearly 300.9 cents a gallon in just 2 years.

Also the state of Michigan decided any body holding a bussiness licence was intitled to a tax break, Money to do that had to come from some place so they taxes my pention, 37.00 every month and some of the companys who got tax breaks include GM who pays the CEO 22 Million a year, Ford whpo pays around 19 million a year to their CEO and the list goes on and on right down to finally joes pizza shop down town bumbly bump Michigan. If I would have knowen that was coming I would still be working at 71 years old. Was easy work and steady. The company is booming today now ecomeny has recovered. 

My dibeties was being treated private doctor & thru my work insurance at a percentage.
I don't remember what my share of the doctors cost was but the insulin was $45.00 a month and the metform was about 15.00 a month. had to see the doctor every other month.

When the stuff hit the fan in 2008 the company I had worked for for 33 years went bankrupt along with GM and Chrylser where 70% of the work came from another 20% came from ford but they were in deep caca them selves so cut what they paid my company to do for them. The company had to rely on building hearses and ambulances then. 

When they went belly up I was lucky and retained my pention but the health care I had was lost. 
I turned to the VA since I was a vet for my health care. To my surprize I got free insulin and metform thru them. Then sonce they determined my dibites was due to the brown crap sprayed on us in VN i was conidered 10% disable so now get a little each month from my service connected disability.

I do have a big ***** about the VA the US government how ever. I feel that any VET from Any Era should have free life time health care just like the Idots in Washiungton got for so long.

Also I have to pay a co pay for my costorel Meds. Don't think I should pay one dime since the diabetes effects it. Same with the tablets I carry around in case I suffer a low blood sugar event.


 Al


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Would also like to point out the USA is the only major country in the free world that doesn't have a free to it's citzens heart care plan.

The word free exclude Russia and China.

 Al


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

frogmammy said:


> All Day Chemist is in India.
> 
> And yes, we CAN order from them here in the US (so far).
> 
> ...


I have family members that buy from All Day Chemist, have for years, without an issue. It's silly not to utilize it if they have the medication.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I've read that there is a push to remove the preexisting condition provision from the ACA.


You read lots of garbage that isn't true.
You focus on the left wing BS too much


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Pyrpup2016 said:


> For *many*, the ACA was a lifesaver - and it still works for many


*Most* never wanted it at all.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)




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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

People with no medical needs don't want to buy $1000 a month insurance. People with $10,000 a month medical needs expect $1000 a month health insurance.
We'd like insurance so we wouldn't need to worry about future costs. Insurance companies need to charge enough to cover those unknowns, plus their profits.

We buy car insurance with no intention of needing it. We buy home owners insurance with no expectation of filing a claim. But we want prescription insurance that saves us on our monthly prescription costs. Wake up folks, prescription insurance is not a Groupon.

I do not see, economically, how the taxpayers can fund everyone's health insurance.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

haypoint said:


> Insurance companies need to charge enough to cover those unknowns, plus their profits.
> 
> .


An important point that the liberal press never seemed to bring out during the push to pass ACA: insurance premiums, back in the good ol' days before ACA, only amounted to 97% of the insurance companies' expenses. They made their profits by investing that large cash flow of the premiums (one reason they were so slow to pay out- they were reaping interest benefits by waiting as long as possible).

Doctors' fees/nurses' salaries are no nearly the biggest part of medical costs, nor are even pharm expenses. The real problem is in the lab & medical equipment expenses. Eg- private lab charge private MD $3 for a simple CBC. HIs office gets $30 from ins, while the hospital lab gets $100. An oxygen concentrator for home use costs the supplier $500 and Medicare pays $5000 (!!)...and the real culprit in excessive costs is the legally necessary, but medically unnecessary testing.

When CT first became generally available in community hospitals around 1980, we used to think it was cheating--("We don't need that. We always could figure it out before.") Now they take your insurance info and tell you to get in line for your CT before they even ask you what's wrong. The lawyers require the CT.

[I'm only being semi-facetious. CT scans haven't saved anybody's life, but now the surgeon knows exactly what he's going to find once he opens you up. Before, we often did "exploratory surgery." We knew it was bad and needed surgery, but weren't sure what we'd find all the time. So now we accrue an added expense for the scans with no real change in outcomes.]


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

doc- said:


> ... An oxygen concentrator for home use costs the supplier $500 and Medicare pays $5000 (!!)...


Wow! When my husband was sick, I found a nearly new concentrator for him for sale on Craigslist for $100. (YAY! Craigslist! I bought it as backup) Looks like I did better than I thought. A company that rented them out, did a check and tuneup for me, so we were good to go.

Mon


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

collegeboundgal said:


> I think about retirement. A lot. I am always reading articles and comments about it, both my husband and I contribute 15% then company match of 100% the first 3% cutting down to, I think, .25% to the full 6%.
> I dream of early retirement. Like in our 50's early retirement. We are 37 and 38 now. The one thing that I think will keep us working longer than I want is cost of healthcare and/or insurance. As self pay insurance for the two of us, healthy, no daily medication needed, non-smokers is somewhere in the $1200/month range. I wonder what it's going to look like in 15-20 years as it has changed SO much within my own short lifetime.
> I often wonder how many older folks really could retire early if they had affordable health insurance. Most likely a LOT. After speaking to older coworkers and family, they are working for the insurance. This led me to think, I don't see how politicians can allow affordable health insurance without people continuing to work. I think there would be a MASSIVE leave of workers from the workforce. That is a lot of lost SS and tax revenue from their paychecks. What do you think?



Have you considered an HSA? Its tax free plus it helps lower your current tax too. You also don't ever lose it like a FSA. Its yours forever, tax free. They cost less than half the money of regular insurance plans. 

What I did (current job doesn't have one) was spend the "normal" premium amount per month. I would have paid 600 month regular insurance but only had to pay 220 for my HSA. Same insurance but 1000 more per year deductible is all. Then I would take the other 380 per month and put it in my HSA. My employer matched it like my 401k at 3%. The money was mine and I was vested immediately. The money grew interest and I could take out whatever I needed for medical expenses. My deductible money I had to pay grew by over 400 a month. If I didn't use it that year I had it for next year.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Years ago pensions were more common, and social security was a good idea. Now most prudent people consider a 401K as the real answer to retirement.

I wish we would do something similar for health care as we did with a 401K. 

Let people save pre-tax money that with be used for medical care after they turn 60ish. This could complement Medicaid, the way a 401K complement SS.

If wishes were horses we would all ride.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Years ago pensions were more common, and social security was a good idea. Now most prudent people consider a 401K as the real answer to retirement.
> 
> I wish we would do something similar for health care as we did with a 401K.
> 
> ...


They have that already. See my post above. 

An HSA is almost the same thing. You can contribute tax deferred and use the money tax free for medical. If after you reach Medicare age you decide you want to use it for a vacation you can. Then and only cases like that do you pay tax on it. Otherwise if you use it for medical you never pay tax on it. 

Wish granted.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> They have that already. See my post above.
> 
> An HSA is almost the same thing. You can contribute tax deferred and use the money tax free for medical. If after you reach Medicare age you decide you want to use it for a vacation you can. Then and only cases like that do you pay tax on it. Otherwise if you use it for medical you never pay tax on it.
> 
> Wish granted.


Thanks - I am not familiar with HSAs. They seem to be under appreciated.

I'll list some more wishes soon for you to address...


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Thanks - I am not familiar with HSAs. They seem to be under appreciated.
> 
> I'll list some more wishes soon for you to address...


The thing I like about HSA's is that you can invest then just like a 401k. Stocks, bonds and real estate. Myself I think it should be fairly liquid for just in case but to each his own. 

As to the wish, due to inflation there are no longer three wishes available. One is all you get. I'll go back in my bottle now.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

Hi Everyone:

It's been some years since I have posted regularly in this forum, but I just can't help myself when healthcare comes up. I truly believe y'all are getting snookered by a privatized approach to health care that takes a goofy government scheme to try to fix something that is fundamentally flawed. I am Canadian, and I can tell you that if you can see past the myths and disinformation people tell you about single payer health care, you would be vastly better off under such a system.

Right now, US govt spending on health care (as % of GDP) is a tad higher than it is in Canada. Yet your private spending (employer contributions, premiums, pharmaceuticals, etc) is approximately 3 times higher. Big Pharma and HMOs are sticking it to you because of this fragmented private sector approach. 

Take a moment and reflect on the implications of the above paragraph. You could cover 100% of your citizens, drop employer and personal premium payments by 65%, and you would not have to raise taxes one dime. And, you would get better health outcomes. Here is a link to some of the data regarding what I have said.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org...e-sector-spending-triple-comparable-countries

Canadian health care is not perfect, but as a point of comparison it illustrates how badly you are being cheated....


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

collegeboundgal said:


> I think about retirement. A lot. I am always reading articles and comments about it, both my husband and I contribute 15% then company match of 100% the first 3% cutting down to, I think, .25% to the full 6%.
> I dream of early retirement. Like in our 50's early retirement. We are 37 and 38 now. The one thing that I think will keep us working longer than I want is cost of healthcare and/or insurance. As self pay insurance for the two of us, healthy, no daily medication needed, non-smokers is somewhere in the $1200/month range. I wonder what it's going to look like in 15-20 years as it has changed SO much within my own short lifetime.
> I often wonder how many older folks really could retire early if they had affordable health insurance. Most likely a LOT. After speaking to older coworkers and family, they are working for the insurance. This led me to think, I don't see how politicians can allow affordable health insurance without people continuing to work. I think there would be a MASSIVE leave of workers from the workforce. That is a lot of lost SS and tax revenue from their paychecks. What do you think?


 My husband retired almost 4 years ago. He could have retired earlier but he was and he is still too young for Medicare so he kept working. We had enough saved and he was over the age of 55, so he could withdraw from a 401k without a penalty. Insurance was the sticky point as I am a self-employed consultant and full-time student. Prior to the ACA, I had priced out a private insurance policy for the 2 of us. It was almost twice as much as the ACA policy that we pay for now. I know that pricing is different in other states, but that was our experience in NY. Once the Affordable Care Act was passed, he was able to quit his job and free up a good-paying job for someone else. While my husband doesn't pay into SS, he also isn't old enough to draw from it. As a result of his early retirement, his SS payments will be lower than those of people who worked for more years. We are willing to accept that.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

The Paw said:


> Hi Everyone:
> 
> It's been some years since I have posted regularly in this forum, but I just can't help myself when healthcare comes up. I truly believe y'all are getting snookered by a privatized approach to health care that takes a goofy government scheme to try to fix something that is fundamentally flawed. I am Canadian, and I can tell you that if you can see past the myths and disinformation people tell you about single payer health care, you would be vastly better off under such a system.
> 
> ...


I was at a community meeting last week. It was billed as a conversation about single-payer insurance because there is a movement in NY to establish it for all residents. As soon as the featured speaker began to talk, it became obvious that he was essentially a lobbyist for a group of insurance companies and a few unions. I called him out on it and got him to admit his bias and the source of his paycheck. We aren't just being cheated...We are being led astray by the people and industries who are profiting from our ignorance.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

By the time we were 62 we had enough in savings, IRA's, pensions and such to retire. Except for health care. I really wanted to stay home and take care of the homestead, the wife still enjoyed working so she continues to do so, mainly for the health coverage. Although she does enjoy spending the income from her job on the grandchildren, they're spoiled rotten.


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## colourfastt (Nov 11, 2006)

TheMartianChick said:


> I was at a community meeting last week. It was billed as a conversation about single-payer insurance because there is a movement in NY to establish it for all residents. As soon as the featured speaker began to talk, it became obvious that he was essentially a lobbyist for a group of insurance companies and a few unions. I called him out on it and got him to admit his bias and the source of his paycheck. We aren't just being cheated...We are being led astray by the people and industries who are profiting from our ignorance.


In the early 90s I managed a group of allied health companies (ambulance, DME, etc.) and even then I was advocating for single payor. From an administrative standpoint it would have made things much easier.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> They have that already. See my post above.
> 
> An HSA is almost the same thing. You can contribute tax deferred and use the money tax free for medical. If after you reach Medicare age you decide you want to use it for a vacation you can. Then and only cases like that do you pay tax on it. Otherwise if you use it for medical you never pay tax on it.
> 
> Wish granted.


Check the laws---I don't know if they changed when ACA was passed, but prior to that you got a tax break for a HSA only IF you HAD INSURANCE! Talk about stupid.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

doc- said:


> Check the laws---I don't know if they changed when ACA was passed, but prior to that you got a tax break for a HSA only IF you HAD INSURANCE! Talk about stupid.


I think it still applies. My wife got get HSA after the ACA when her employer offered it last year.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

haypoint said:


> I do not see, economically, how the taxpayers can fund everyone's health insurance.


Single payer isn't single payer at all. It's "single collector and redistributor". Once again, those who are productive, successful citizens are expected to pick up the tab for those who refuse to pay their own way. It's just one more way to punish the evil wealthy and buy votes with their money.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Single payer isn't single payer at all. It's "single collector and redistributor". Once again, those who are productive, successful citizens are expected to pick up the tab for those who refuse to pay their own way. It's just one more way to punish the evil wealthy and buy votes with their money.


We pay three time THREE TIMES per capita for health care that they do in Italy. Half what they pay in UK. When you dont waste money on middle men, endless paperwork, and what amounts to fraud in the crazy pricing schemes to maximize profit, then you can insure more people. We wasted how much money on bailing out banks too big to fail and endless pointless wars that are unwinnable (you would thought we would learned from Vietnam, but guess not), not to mention subsidies to poor struggling companies like Exxon.... Yet we cant pay to make sure we have a healthy workforce. I personally know people just lingering until they reach age for Medicare to get health problems looked after. Medicaid wasnt extended in their states. Means they cant contribute to economy until they are too old to contribute to the economy. Germany figured this out in the 1800s, it pays to make sure you have a healthy workforce. This held true whatever flavor politics was in power. Kaiser, Fuhrer, various democratic govts, conservative and liberal. They all got it that a healthy work force was a necessity. Here we just see everybody as expendable/replaceable by opening borders.

A society works better when the economy isnt just for the benefit of the few that are richer than god. But thats exactly what we are doing, implementing a second Gilded Age, concentrating extreme wealth in hands of the few. Emulating Mexico cause we know how well its worked for them. Ignore success of northern Europe, cause it doesnt fit with extreme righty tighty politics.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HermitJohn said:


> We pay three time THREE TIMES per capita for health care that they do in Italy. Half what they pay in UK. When you dont waste money on middle men, endless paperwork, and what amounts to fraud in the crazy pricing schemes to maximize profit, then you can insure more people. We wasted how much money on bailing out banks too big to fail and endless pointless wars that are unwinnable (you would thought we would learned from Vietnam, but guess not), not to mention subsidies to poor struggling companies like Exxon.... Yet we cant pay to make sure we have a healthy workforce. I personally know people just lingering until they reach age for Medicare to get health problems looked after. Medicaid wasnt extended in their states. Means they cant contribute to economy until they are too old to contribute to the economy. Germany figured this out in the 1800s, it pays to make sure you have a healthy workforce. This held true whatever flavor politics was in power. Kaiser, Fuhrer, various democratic govts, conservative and liberal. They all got it that a healthy work force was a necessity. Here we just see everybody as expendable/replaceable by opening borders.
> 
> A society works better when the economy isnt just for the benefit of the few that are richer than god. But thats exactly what we are doing, implementing a second Gilded Age, concentrating extreme wealth in hands of the few. Emulating Mexico cause we know how well its worked for them. Ignore success of northern Europe, cause it doesnt fit with extreme righty tighty politics.


If I remember correctly our workforce had pretty good coverage prior to obamacare. The majority of which was provided by those mean old rich people they worked for. Still do.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> If I remember correctly our workforce had pretty good coverage prior to obamacare. The majority of which was provided by those mean old rich people they worked for. Still do.


Employer-based healthcare stifles the growth of new businesses. People who could be job creators have to continue to work for others just to keep their families covered. If there was single payer, then they could start a new business, build it up and then employ others. I was only able to start my business because my husband had us covered with health insurance before he retired. I have worked with hundreds of entrepreneurs over the years, many of them don't have spouses to keep them covered under an insurance policy. So, they try to build a business on the side and often fail because they can't burn both ends of the candle for too long and it takes a while to ramp up a business on part-time hours.

It is dangerous to go without insurance because you can lose everything that you have due to a single accident or cancer diagnosis. Single payer isn't usually Cadillac-level insurance. It covers the basics to keep people healthy. They can still pay for a separate policy to cover extra things if they wish to. Keeping people healthy means that diseases and other problems are caught early before they become life-threatening and before they become expensive to treat. This helps to keep healthcare costs low and people are able to work longer, if they wish. While SOME people had workforce health insurance prior to the ACA, the things that were covered, varied. Some insurance didn't cover women's reproductive care or pre-existing conditions. Anyone could market a product to employers and call it insurance but it didn't have to be useful to patients. For people trying to hold down two part-time jobs to make ends meet, their employers didn't offer insurance coverage and they often made slightly too much to qualify for Medicaid.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

TheMartianChick said:


> Employer-based healthcare stifles the growth of new businesses. People who could be job creators have to continue to work for others just to keep their families covered. If there was single payer, then they could start a new business, build it up and then employ others.



This is a very valid point.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

TheMartianChick said:


> Employer-based healthcare stifles the growth of new businesses. People who could be job creators have to continue to work for others just to keep their families covered. If there was single payer, then they could start a new business, build it up and then employ others. I was only able to start my business because my husband had us covered with health insurance before he retired. I have worked with hundreds of entrepreneurs over the years, many of them don't have spouses to keep them covered under an insurance policy. So, they try to build a business on the side and often fail because they can't burn both ends of the candle for too long and it takes a while to ramp up a business on part-time hours.
> 
> It is dangerous to go without insurance because you can lose everything that you have due to a single accident or cancer diagnosis. Single payer isn't usually Cadillac-level insurance. It covers the basics to keep people healthy. They can still pay for a separate policy to cover extra things if they wish to. Keeping people healthy means that diseases and other problems are caught early before they become life-threatening and before they become expensive to treat. This helps to keep healthcare costs low and people are able to work longer, if they wish. While SOME people had workforce health insurance prior to the ACA, the things that were covered, varied. Some insurance didn't cover women's reproductive care or pre-existing conditions. Anyone could market a product to employers and call it insurance but it didn't have to be useful to patients. For people trying to hold down two part-time jobs to make ends meet, their employers didn't offer insurance coverage and they often made slightly too much to qualify for Medicaid.


Of course many of us didn't have employer provided insurance, I fell in that group, didn't want to risk losing my assets and all the fixtures.... So I bought my own insurance. Ther simply was no health care crisis in this country. Just slippery politicians looking to buy the poor mans votes with the rich mans money. As usual.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Of course many of us didn't have employer provided insurance, I fell in that group, didn't want to risk losing my assets and all the fixtures.... So I bought my own insurance. Ther simply was no health care crisis in this country. Just slippery politicians looking to buy the poor mans votes with the rich mans money. As usual.


Nothing worse than losing your assets after busting your assets to get them.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Over the years pre-Obamacare, I had two policies. One back in 80s was a non-profit cooperative startup health insurance company. Great policy, they took it seriously. Even covered mental health to limited degree. My ex was bi-polar, she maxed out the lifetime $30k limit on mental health before the cooperative went bankrupt. Bankruptcy court offered us continuation of our coverage through another company, but price went up to MORE THAN WE MADE IN A YEAR. 

Second policy was later, after divorce and I am single old man. Jumped through all kinds hoops to get private policy with Blue Cross. I went to doc supposedly on their list of approved docs. $2000 office visit, they cover one $4 generic prescription, deny every other charge. I mean I was DIAGNOSED with Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever and they wouldnt even cover the test that determined this. I dropped them. With this wonderful pre-Obamacare Blue Cross policy, you pay them, they guarantee to cover nothing unless you can afford to have tag team lawyers following you around to your doctors visits. When you are sick and basically a quivering lump, you arent exactly feeling like playing lawyer or super consumer yourself, trying to determine all ins and outs of everything comparing every last bit of piecemeal cost (as if thats possible even for healthy accountant). You are wondering if you are going to be alive next week.

And believe me not all jobs come with coverage. Darn few come with truly decent coverage. Private coverage pre-Obamacare did not do pre-existing conditions. So yea it was probably fine for the young and healthy, sucked for everybody else unless you had a job with gold plated group health coverage. Again American philosophy isnt healthy workers, its use em up, throw em away and open the borders for some healthier replacements. Did you know you can lose your group coverage if you get sick and cant work? Oh there is crazy expensive gap insurance, but you have money for that, especially for LONG term condition?

Not saying Obamacare is wonderful, its not, its three times the cost of what it should be in a civilized country. Many people that buy it cant afford to use it. Many states didnt extend Medicaid that was a big part of it for lower income that mainstream Obamacare doesnt cover, in other words, no subsidies for you, you are TOO POOR. Thats why we should had a nationwide GROUP HEALTHCARE POLICY, in other words single payer. Nobody sick should have to risk their home and everything they have for medical care vs just avoiding care and dying in dark corner somewhere so their family doesnt lose their house. Everybody needs healthcare at some point in their life so why all protecting middle man profits, why not a GROUP policy for the whole country like all the other industrialized countries have????? Healthcare is not luxury like somebody wanting to buy a new Mercedes, healthcare is truly life and death.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Problem now is the government has their diddler in it and they will never pull out...……..I would be surprised if they ever relinquish control of it.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Of course many of us didn't have employer provided insurance, I fell in that group, didn't want to risk losing my assets and all the fixtures.... So I bought my own insurance. Ther simply was no health care crisis in this country. Just slippery politicians looking to buy the poor mans votes with the rich mans money. As usual.


I don't how anyone can argue with you. You been there, you did it and now everyone knows better than you.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> Over the years pre-Obamacare, I had two policies. One back in 80s was a non-profit cooperative startup health insurance company. Great policy, they took it seriously. Even covered mental health to limited degree. My ex was bi-polar, she maxed out the lifetime $30k limit on mental health before the cooperative went bankrupt. Bankruptcy court offered us continuation of our coverage through another company, but price went up to MORE THAN WE MADE IN A YEAR.
> 
> Second policy was later, after divorce and I am single old man. Jumped through all kinds hoops to get private policy with Blue Cross. I went to doc supposedly on their list of approved docs. $2000 office visit, they cover one $4 generic prescription, deny every other charge. I mean I was DIAGNOSED with Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever and they wouldnt even cover the test that determined this. I dropped them. With this wonderful pre-Obamacare Blue Cross policy, you pay them, they guarantee to cover nothing unless you can afford to have tag team lawyers following you around to your doctors visits. When you are sick and basically a quivering lump, you arent exactly feeling like playing lawyer or super consumer yourself, trying to determine all ins and outs of everything comparing every last bit of piecemeal cost (as if thats possible even for healthy accountant). You are wondering if you are going to be alive next week.
> 
> ...


You seem to have suffered greatly in life.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> I don't how anyone can argue with you. You been there, you did it and now everyone knows better than you.


Apparently I lucked out, happened to buy my insurance on the right day or something and got the only policy in the country that always payed my claims as agreed. (Actually paid more than I expected) I was quite content with that company for over thirty years. Other than a small premium increase every five years my rates never increased until ocare was passed, at which point it tripled within months, forcing me to look for coverage elsewhere. I then found another company and policy that I could afford and have been with them ever since. Even after I went on Medicare (very poor coverage) I use them for my backup insurance to cover the expense that Medicare doesn't and would leave me bankrupt without.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Apparently I lucked out, happened to buy my insurance on the right day or something and got the only policy in the country that always payed my claims as agreed. (Actually paid more than I expected) I was quite content with that company for over thirty years. Other than a small premium increase every five years my rates never increased until ocare was passed, at which point it tripled within months, forcing me to look for coverage elsewhere. I then found another company and policy that I could afford and have been with them ever since. Even after I went on Medicare (very poor coverage) I use them for my backup insurance to cover the expense that Medicare doesn't and would leave me bankrupt without.



You've said that you have an accountant that makes sure you don't pay taxes but you receive Medicare, you seem like a drain of society


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

oneraddad said:


> You've said that you have an accountant that makes sure you don't pay taxes but you receive Medicare, you seem like a drain of society


 He paid into it for years. He's due the payouts ....


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

oneraddad said:


> You've said that you have an accountant that makes sure you don't pay taxes but you receive Medicare, you seem like a drain of society


Probably true, but I don't make the rules, I just live by them.


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## Vjklander (Apr 24, 2018)

I've developed this outline over the last decade or so. I haven't updated it recently though. 
Anyone who actually cares to solve the problem should agree with all points.
Health care is not a right, it is a commodity. Period. Every speck of healthcare goods and services is the result of some person's labor. 
Any third party system is bound to fail because it removes any incentive for the principals to control costs.
These are some easy ways to cut costs, and increase quality of health care. The most important thing is to use free market forces to drive down the cost and drive up the quality of health care itself:
1. Control the trial lawyers. Limit awards to actual damages with an additional 0-100% of that for ancillary factors unless the health care provider is convicted of a crime. Limit lawyers fees to 10% of the awards.
2. Require all health care providers of goods and services to post their prices.
3. Require all health care providers of goods and services to provide a written estimate.
4. Health care providers of goods and services can set their own prices, but they must charge the same amount to all customers - with a write-down provision only for individuals.
5. Create a before-tax health-care IRA into which you can deposit as much as you want at any time, but not to exceed $6,000 above the actual expenditures per year.
6. Allow any individual to contribute tax-free dollars to anyone else's HCIRA.
7. Make all employer health care benefits of the form of contributions to employees personal HCIRA.
8. HCIRAs can be used to pay for all medical expenses, including insurance premiums.
9. Any error in billing will require the bill to be cut in half. 2+ errors in billing will negate the bill. This is applicable to the provider and/or insurer.
10. Your HCIRA is heritable.
11. Allow consumers to buy any insurance policy from any insurance company anywhere, paid from the HCIRA.
12. Prohibit any health care providers of goods and services from disclosing consumers' identifying information to the federal government.
13. Allow insurers to write short-term negative-outcome insurance policies.
14. Allow all kinds of medi-share and other such associations.
15. Government assistance would fund HCIRAs
These would take huge amounts of non-value added costs out of the health care industry.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Probably true, but I don't make the rules, I just live by them.



Then you can't complain about others that do the same, that's the only point I'm trying to make


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

oneraddad said:


> Then you can't complain about others that do the same, that's the only point I'm trying to make


And I don't. I complain about the idiots who write the rules!


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

at


oneraddad said:


> You've said that you have an accountant that makes sure you don't pay taxes but you receive Medicare, you seem like a drain of society


I wasn't going to add any more comments until I saw this one. Several of the last few posts contained false fantasies about insurance.

--Drain on society? A guy works 50 yrs contributing Medicare taxes, then probably won't survive for 20 yrs after he becomes eligible.

--pre-existing conditions: the whole concept of insurance is based on the idea that not everyone will have to collect in any given year-- more givers than takers. Once you have a "pre-existing condition," we KNOW you're going to be a drain on the group-- only question is "how much?" These cases need to be covered in a separate way or else the insurance plan is doomed.

--Germany started health coverage in late 19th century as a purely political move to improve the attitude of the increasingly dissatisfied proletariat about its govt. Look it up.

Surely food, housing and clothing are more important necessities of life than health care. Why don't liberal politicians present legislation to provide these things free to the public before they start in on healthcare?... because plans for those would be too obviously insincere attempts to buy votes with tax money. Even the most obtuse, uninformed voter would see thru it. Making an issue of healthcare is less obvious, but just as insincere and aimed at the same voters.

You can insure your $250 million house for only $400 a year, but helath insurance costs $500 a month. Why? Because house insurance doesn't cover mowing the lawn every week, painting the living room every two years or even replacing the roof every 20 yrs. It cover only CATACLYSMIC problems....Health insurance, OTOH, has come to cover even the most simple stuff, from mosquito bites to routine bruises. {BTW- "preventive care" is wishful thinking-- don't smoke and cross with the lights-- that's all that really works.] Go to the doctor for a common cold? After 7 yrs of training and 40 yrs of practice I still couldn't tell you anything my mother didn't know about colds after raising 3 kids.

"First kill all the lawyers." --Yogi Berra (or was it Shakespeare?)


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"You can insure your $250 million house for only $400 a year,"

That statement is so false that I can't even consider the rest of your post.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> "You can insure your $250 million house for only $400 a year,"
> 
> That statement is so false that I can't even consider the rest of your post.


Why? I would take your $400 a year, and be happy to replace your home...... If it is destroyed by an asteroid from the tail of Hayley's comet on a day of the week that doesn't end with the letter "Y". It's all about the risk.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

doc- said:


> at
> --Germany started health coverage in late 19th century as a purely political move to improve the attitude of the increasingly dissatisfied proletariat about its govt. Look it up.
> 
> Surely food, housing and clothing are more important necessities of life than health care. Why don't liberal politicians present legislation to provide these things free to the public before they start in on healthcare?... because plans for those would be too obviously insincere attempts to buy votes with tax money. Even the most obtuse, uninformed voter would see thru it. Making an issue of healthcare is less obvious, but just as insincere and aimed at the same voters.


Good points and just so you know, they are working on it.


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## macmad (Dec 22, 2012)

"That statement is so false that I can't even consider the rest of your post."

You wouldn't have anyway.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

macmad said:


> "That statement is so false that I can't even consider the rest of your post."
> 
> *You wouldn't have anyway. *


Clarification needed. The quote-


painterswife said:


> "You can insure your $250 million house for only $400 a year,"
> 
> That statement is so false that I can't even consider the rest of your post.


 is on topic, and is responding to the post, not personally.

Is the response (the first quote) to painterswife's post nice and is it directed at the person or the post?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Clarification needed. The quote-
> is on topic, and is responding to the post, not personally.
> 
> Is the response (the first quote) to painterswife's post nice and is it directed at the person or the post?


Where is your’s directed?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Where is your’s directed?


My apologies, my post is directed to the gc mod (wr), and admin if she feels they are needed.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> My apologies, my post is directed to the gc mod (wr), and admin if she feels they are needed.


I did not see wr in your post. 

No need to apologize


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Where is your’s directed?


Where most are?



Irish Pixie said:


> My apologies, my post is directed to the gc mod (wr), and admin if she feels they are needed.


There's an "app" for that.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

doc- said:


> --Germany started health coverage in late 19th century as a purely political move to improve the attitude of the increasingly dissatisfied proletariat about its govt. Look it up.


Most things in govt start out purely political. But as I point out, national health care didnt disappear in Germany with the Kaiser's political whim. The short lived Weimar Republic post WWI kept it. The Nazis kept it. Post WWII West and East Germany kept it. West Germany through both liberal and conservative govts. Still going under reunited Germany. I would say that had some serious staying power for a mere political whim? Eventually even worst govt has to recognize a good idea. Germany's economy by the way seems to do pretty well.....


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Once people realize the benefits of universal healthcare for everyone including industry they will never give it up. When a poll was held asking who is the greatest Canadian, Tommy Douglas won by a landslide. He is the "father" of universal healthcare. Also grandfather of that great Canadian TV hero representing the US in so many series - Kiefer Sutherland.


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## Vjklander (Apr 24, 2018)

If you believe in slavery and no advancement in medicine, good luck.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

emdeengee said:


> Once people realize the benefits of universal healthcare for everyone including industry they will never give it up. When a poll was held asking who is the greatest Canadian, Tommy Douglas won by a landslide. He is the "father" of universal healthcare. Also grandfather of that great Canadian TV hero representing the US in so many series - Kiefer Sutherland.


The same things were said about Stalin and Hitler at one time too.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

Vjklander said:


> If you believe in slavery and no advancement in medicine, good luck.


"Slavery" seems a bit hyperbolic. But I guess I would rather have to endure the oppressive situation of having quality health care for all versus the freedom to be bankrupted by an HMO. 

It is also a myth that there are no advancements in medicine under a single payer system. Here are some for you to consider:

http://innovativemedicines.ca/medicines/timeline/


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Americans come to Canada for advanced treatments in many diseases that are not available in the US or their insurance company refuses to pay or as in the case of the American in the bed next to me - said it was an experimental treatment and not covered. Strange as it was used for years in the US and covered by other insurance companies. So they came to Canada not only to get the life saving treatment but because it was less than half the cost if they had paid out of pocket in the US.


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## Twp.Tom (Dec 29, 2010)

Here's the Swedish model,works for me! https://sweden.se/society/health-care-in-sweden/


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

The spartan model works for me....


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Twp.Tom said:


> Here's the Swedish model,works for me! https://sweden.se/society/health-care-in-sweden/


Does Sweden emphasize healthy lifestyle with the medical services?


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## Twp.Tom (Dec 29, 2010)

Sweden does promote healthy living through diet,physical activity,lifestyle.....etc. I am really surprised at the overall fitness of the older folks. Many 80+ year olds, working, hiking,keeping active-well into their 90's. It blows me away, that some of these folks are approaching 100- and still kicking butt!.
The healthcare situation is adequate. People here don't hang on to a crap job-just to have insurance. Retirement problems are similar to USA, folks here, are at their highest earning potential as they enter their 60's-many want to continue to work.Up here where we live, things are slow and easy for the most part. Workday's start late,quit early, long lunches-weekends off, lot's of vacation time (6 weeks/yr), and "Fika", at least 2/3 times a day*


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

The health insurance scam is not going to change much until the realization sinks in that we were not designed to live forever. How many people are lying in nursing homes with what most would consider little to no quality of life? 

I suspect there are many who do not want to be in that situation, especially if they have any assets that are being syphoned off to some profiteer or government entity.
Hard decisions are going to have to be made by policy and law makers regarding end-of-life situations. I doubt they currently have the will for it.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

As Reagan said- The closest thing to immortality is a govt program.... Europeans have been accustomed to the idea that all land & wealth belongs to the Emperor, King or Dictator for at least 2000 yrs now, and that the peasants serve the regent at his will. America owes its very existence to resistance to that concept. After 250 yrs of freedom are we suggesting a return to subservience?

It's very difficult to compare genetically homogenous, smaller societies like Sweden to the larger, more diverse USA. Disease is much more related to genes than lifestyle. If you have good genes, you can abuse the heck out of yourself and still live a long time...and if you have bad genes, no matter what exercise you do or diet you follow, you're still gunna die young.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

painterswife said:


> "You can insure your $250 million house for only $400 a year,"
> 
> That statement is so false that I can't even consider the rest of your post.


ooops! Sorry. I mixed & matched 250,000 and quarter million. Now the rest of the post can be believed.


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## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Then I would go to the open market. I think things will settle down 0nce all the uncertainty is gone. It only got sky high after 0bamaCare.


I have to disagree about it only getting sky high after Obama care. the reason Obama care exists is because it was already sky high. And many people with preexisting conditions were just out of luck if they didn't have a job that covered them. A lot of people who were covered at work didn't realize what a huge benefit that was. A lot of companies were already cutting back on coverage.
Jim


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

gilberte said:


> The health insurance scam is not going to change much until the realization sinks in that we were not designed to live forever. How many people are lying in nursing homes with what most would consider little to no quality of life?
> 
> I suspect there are many who do not want to be in that situation, especially if they have any assets that are being syphoned off to some profiteer or government entity.
> Hard decisions are going to have to be made by policy and law makers regarding end-of-life situations. I doubt they currently have the will for it.


So you are of the opinion that anybody not yet old enough for Medicare and no Medicaid available, but unable to work because of say a hernia or needing a hip replacement, should just shoot themselves cause they cant live forever. Have you tried this approach lately? Next time you get the flu, why suffer, just off yourself. Sounds like a great plan.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Sounds like people in your example have an expectation of recovery and some form of a quality of life. I wouldn't presume to make decisions for others in any case.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

gilberte said:


> The health insurance scam is not going to change much until the realization sinks in that we were not designed to live forever. How many people are lying in nursing homes with what most would consider little to no quality of life?
> 
> I suspect there are many who do not want to be in that situation, especially if they have any assets that are being syphoned off to some profiteer or government entity.
> Hard decisions are going to have to be made by policy and law makers regarding end-of-life situations. I doubt they currently have the will for it.



I do not disagree with you. But what do you do? Stop acute treatments i.e. heart stops for the third time in a year-no treatment?
Chronic 78 year old diabetic, liver disease needs dialysis?

Again I agree with your post, but how is it implemented


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Long discussion, probably begin with allowing doctors to have frank discussions with folks in that situation. Perhaps just manage their pain if they choose enough is enough.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

gilberte said:


> Long discussion, probably begin with allowing doctors to have frank discussions with folks in that situation. Perhaps just manage their pain if they choose enough is enough.


Yes I tend to agree. It has to be completely voluntary. I personally believe when a person is nearthe end of a painful, terminal disease they should have options.


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## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

haypoint said:


> People with no medical needs don't want to buy $1000 a month insurance. People with $10,000 a month medical needs expect $1000 a month health insurance.
> We'd like insurance so we wouldn't need to worry about future costs. Insurance companies need to charge enough to cover those unknowns, plus their profits.
> 
> We buy car insurance with no intention of needing it. We buy home owners insurance with no expectation of filing a claim. But we want prescription insurance that saves us on our monthly prescription costs. Wake up folks, prescription insurance is not a Groupon.
> ...


Taxpayers are currently paying for the everyone's health care Why couldn't we pay for the insurance.
Jim


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## ldc (Oct 11, 2006)

Concierge healthcare where I live is a flat $1800/yr, plus....everything is extra. While it would be great to get a call back or a question answered by phone, I'm hanging tough, have ACA (which after start-up problems is going more smoothly now), and am holding out for Medicare. Which is also not free.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Vjklander said:


> If you believe in slavery and no advancement in medicine, good luck.


There is a lot of medical and pharmaceutical research undertaken in Canada. There are some great surgical advances that are now used all over the world that were pioneered here. Government participates - mostly with enormous funding - but it is the doctors, hospitals, universities and private businesses that are at the cutting edge of medical research.

Since my diagnosis the advances in treatment (including stem cell transplants and new meds) has extended my life expectancy from a couple of months to 11 years - so far. Every year there has been an advance for my cancer and for others. My friends in Australia have been undergoing genetic treatments for cancer for years - very successfully. And yet it is a "new" thing in most of the rest of the world. 

A conference dedicated to my type of cancer (Multiple Myeloma) was just held here in my small northern city for patients, caregivers, doctors, nurses and pharmacists. It was fascinating not only to learn about the advances but to speak with other patients who have been on the same road as I have been on and to hear their stories. It used to be that 3 to 18 months was the survival rate. Now it averages 7 years.

As for slavery - I presume you mean paying taxes? Yes we pay for our medical system through taxes but we pay less than half of what Americans pay. IMO You are enslaved to your insurance companies who actually do have death panels and so many are forced to remain in jobs that offer healthcare and not even consider retirement because they cannot afford healthcare if they stop working.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

emdeengee said:


> As for slavery - I presume you mean paying taxes? Yes we pay for our medical system through taxes but we pay less than half of what Americans pay. IMO You are enslaved to your insurance companies who actually do have death panels and so many are forced to remain in jobs that offer healthcare and not even consider retirement because they cannot afford healthcare if they stop working.


Imagine if car insurance or homeowners insurance was tied to your employment... It doesn't make much sense at all. So, why is health insurance done this way? 

One of the downsides of remaining in a job that you don't like is the stress that it causes. The effects of stress are devastating to your general health and mental health. Many employers provide crappy places to work and expose the workers to all sorts of environmental hazards that can shorten their lives, too.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

TheMartianChick said:


> Imagine if car insurance or homeowners insurance was tied to your employment... It doesn't make much sense at all. So, why is health insurance done this way?
> 
> One of the downsides of remaining in a job that you don't like is the stress that it causes. The effects of stress are devastating to your general health and mental health. Many employers provide crappy places to work and expose the workers to all sorts of environmental hazards that can shorten their lives, too.


I wish I could get health insurance for the cost of car insurance. I don't want to pay your car insurance, or health insurance.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

HDRider said:


> I wish I could get health insurance for the cost of car insurance. I don't want to pay your car insurance, or health insurance.


I dont much want to pay for perpetual wars for big oil or subsidies for big oil. But nobody asks me. I get my choice of the blue guy voting for subsidies to wealthy companies and voting for perpetual wars vs the red guy voting for the same thing. At least be nice if my taxes went to something that benefits me like health care.

Nothing in this world says you need a car. No car, you dont need car insurance. But all of us mere mortals have a body and 99.9% of us will need healthcare in our lifetime if we care to keep breathing. Maybe Bill Gates or other multi-billionaires can safely assume they can self insure, but even mere millionaires can be bankrupted in very short order by American health care system. And few are even mere millionaires, at best more like thousand-aires or hundred-aires. Even more die with lot debt.

But hey you want to go it alone, I would support you being able to opt out of any national health. Sign a contract that you give up the claim to any benefits of said health care and you are free. And fine with me if some company wants to offer private insurance to you and those that rather pay three or four times the price to private company, that they would otherwise paid to national health. But when your money is gone, and your private insurance death panel turns thumbs down, if you cant walk or crawl out the hospital door, then they just wheel you down to the morgue and wait for the inevitable. Cant complain, you didnt want national health and opted out. Too bad you didnt become Big Daddy Warbucks like you thought you would when you were young. Or too bad you got cancer when you were 25, long before you even had chance at becoming Big Daddy Warbucks.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

TheMartianChick said:


> Imagine if car insurance or homeowners insurance was tied to your employment... It doesn't make much sense at all. So, why is health insurance done this way?
> 
> One of the downsides of remaining in a job that you don't like is the stress that it causes. The effects of stress are devastating to your general health and mental health. Many employers provide crappy places to work and expose the workers to all sorts of environmental hazards that can shorten their lives, too.


Well doesn't that make the arguement for a single payer system?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

keenataz said:


> Well doesn't that make the arguement for a single payer system?


Not really. But it does make a good argument for buying ones own insurance instead of tying it to your job.
The argument for single payer (which translates to taxpayer) is that the wealthy few end up paying for the lions share of the average joe's healthcare costs.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Not really. But it does make a good argument for buying ones own insurance instead of tying it to your job.
> The argument for single payer (which translates to taxpayer) is that the wealthy few end up paying for the lions share of the average joe's healthcare costs.


Well thats an easy solution, if being wealthy causes too much consternation, they should just slack off a bit and make less money. Make less money, pay less tax. Amazing how that works..... And hey if they think the poor have free ride, they can just give away all their money and pull up a cardboard box on the sidewalk. Enjoy the free ride.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> Well thats an easy solution, if being wealthy causes too much consternation, they should just slack off a bit and make less money. Make less money, pay less tax. Amazing how that works..... And hey if they think the poor have free ride, they can just give away all their money and pull up a cardboard box on the sidewalk. Enjoy the free ride.


It happens...


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HermitJohn said:


> Well thats an easy solution, if being wealthy causes too much consternation, they should just slack off a bit and make less money. Make less money, pay less tax. Amazing how that works..... And hey if they think the poor have free ride, they can just give away all their money and pull up a cardboard box on the sidewalk. Enjoy the free ride.


They need more money so they don't get taxed out of their homes.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> They need more money so they don't get taxed out of their homes.


But if the poor have it so good, wouldnt the wealthy want to give up their mansions and live in a cardboard box like the poor? After all they forced the poor out of their homes so they could snap them up for gentrification, using those exact same high taxes! The wealthy own government, they want to use such to protect themselves from competition and make as much profit off the poor as possible.


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## LAFarm (Mar 8, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> I dont much want to pay for perpetual wars for big oil or subsidies for big oil. But nobody asks me. I get my choice of the blue guy voting for subsidies to wealthy companies and voting for perpetual wars vs the red guy voting for the same thing. At least be nice if my taxes went to something that benefits me like health care.
> 
> Nothing in this world says you need a car. No car, you dont need car insurance. But all of us mere mortals have a body and 99.9% of us will need healthcare in our lifetime if we care to keep breathing. Maybe Bill Gates or other multi-billionaires can safely assume they can self insure, but even mere millionaires can be bankrupted in very short order by American health care system. And few are even mere millionaires, at best more like thousand-aires or hundred-aires. Even more die with lot debt.
> 
> But hey you want to go it alone, I would support you being able to opt out of any national health. Sign a contract that you give up the claim to any benefits of said health care and you are free. And fine with me if some company wants to offer private insurance to you and those that rather pay three or four times the price to private company, that they would otherwise paid to national health. But when your money is gone, and your private insurance death panel turns thumbs down, if you cant walk or crawl out the hospital door, then they just wheel you down to the morgue and wait for the inevitable. Cant complain, you didnt want national health and opted out. Too bad you didnt become Big Daddy Warbucks like you thought you would when you were young. Or too bad you got cancer when you were 25, long before you even had chance at becoming Big Daddy Warbucks.


Amen, Amen, Amen!!!! This is exactly how I have felt for years!!! Just as you propose, let them opt out. Permanently!!


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## LAFarm (Mar 8, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> Well thats an easy solution, if being wealthy causes too much consternation, they should just slack off a bit and make less money. Make less money, pay less tax. Amazing how that works..... And hey if they think the poor have free ride, they can just give away all their money and pull up a cardboard box on the sidewalk. Enjoy the free ride.


Was talking with my boss towards the end of the year a while back and he was seriously searching for any kind of tax write off because he had made a lot more money than he had projected in his quarterly tax filings. I asked him roughly how big of a deduction he was needing and he replied that he needed over $50,000 before the end of the year. Told him that was easy problem to solve, just shift the tax burden to his employees by giving each of them a couple thousand dollar bonus, of which every penny would be deductible from his business profits and his employee moral would skyrocket. Win, win situation. Needless to say, that was not the solution he was searching for. His idea was to get a paper deduction while keeping all of the money himself....


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