# Need advice



## Dukardfarm (Jan 13, 2016)

I am new to beekeeping and need some advice. Here's the back story: I got my first hive last year, a 3lbs package of Italians. I got them at at end of June (pre-paid in January and got the first available). They made it through the winter when I did my first thorough hive check at the end of March. We had several days of warm weather and a lot of activity around the hive. During the check, I found the queen, saw capped brood, little larva, and a frame full of honey. It was a smaller colony than went into winter, so I adjusted the hive boxes to be more manageable size for the bees (2 bodies down to one)... Basically just took out the frames that didn't have anything and condensed. Two weeks later we had another winter storm come through, the temp went from 77*- 23* ( it's Ohio.. It happens ). The following week, we were again having spring temps and I went to check on the hive and noticed a lot of dead bees at the entrance and no activity. When I opened it up, everything was dead. I'll attach pictures. I found the queen dead also. On the bright side, I was able to show my kids and several of their friends the inside of the hive, the queen and other parts without worry of anyone getting stung. About four days after, I noticed a little activity in and out of the hive.. I didn't check inside though because I didn't want anyone getting stung if there were any inside. 

My questions:
1. Should I leave the hive as is and hope that I catch or have caught a swarm?
2. What do I do with the frames after the deadout?
3. I have recently purchased a nuc to be delivered at the end of the month hopefully. Can this be put into this hive?
4. What might've been the cause of death for all these bees? 

Thank you for your advice.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Put Ohio in your profile so we can quickly see where you are when answering questions.

( 1. I would put the frames in the freezer for 24 hours then bag them in a black garbage bag store in a cool dry place.

(2. Clean the dead bees off/out as good as possible, tapping the top bar and using a shop vac seems to work well.
See # 1 

(3. You can reuse all the frames when your nuc arrives. 

(4. From the pictures I see many dead bees head first in the cells, this is a clear indicator of starvation. 
You reduced and reranaged the hive when you should have left it be and added a feeder with 1:1 syrup to it.

In the spring is best to add syrup to hives till you see flowering plants in bloom. the bees will stop taking the syrup when it is no longer needed.
Those bees around the hive were robber bees cleaning out any useful honey & pollen for their own hive.

 Al


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

To stay warm during the winter, bees cluster together and move slowly over the frames of honey, eating as they go.

Here in the Midwest, we are prone to spring freezes. So, the bees MUST have generous food stores or the late freezes will get them. I think what happens is when it gets warm the bees use up much of their stores to start raising brood, and then when it freezes they run out of adequate food. 

One frame of honey in March, is not nearly enough. Even if you had not gotten bad weather that would not be enough food to carry them over until there were flowers the could use. 

Basically, in the Midwest in the spring, if they do not have a lot of brood, they probably think they are low on feed so they are restricting rations, so feed them. If the population Is smaller feed them. If they are down to 2-3 frames of food, feed them. If they are cranky I believe that they are getting a little hungry and restricting food, so I feed them. And, lastly, in the Midwest sudden freezes HAPPEN, so I usually feed them ANYWAYS! Because In the spring in the Midwest, bad weather HAPPENS and so I feed them anyways for my peace of mind. Because Midwestern weather is not entirely predictable.

I think it is a good idea to feed them when it is warm enough for the bees to fly. If it is cold enough for the bees to still be in a ball they will not find the food but when it is warm enough for them to fly, they will. So I like to feed them when I see activity at the front of the hive.

If you are thinking I once underestimated how much food a hive needed in the early spring, you would be right. I now put a high priority on spring time feeding. If nothing else it makes the hive stronger, as they will store it away during the warm spells between the springtime storms, and then they can raise more brood.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

I would like to ask a question without any attempt to hijack a thread as it seems relevant to the responses given. Since noone feeds bees in the wild and they must be surviving out there, what is different? Is it the housing? Hive surroundings? Noone taking away honey stores? Or genetics?


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

thericeguy said:


> I would like to ask a question without any attempt to hijack a thread as it seems relevant to the responses given. Since noone feeds bees in the wild and they must be surviving out there, what is different? Is it the housing? Hive surroundings? Noone taking away honey stores? Or genetics?


Possibly all of the above.

Then again, how many people know where the wild hives ARE, let alone if a hive has died out? As long as a hive swarms once a year, the wild hives may have a 50% loss rate per year, and few people would notice. The hobby beekeeper who only has a hive or two would take a hard hit if he lost his only hive! Or even one hive out of two.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

I was not implying it was wrong, evil, or unnatural in any way to feed hives if you own 1 or 10000. I made nor think any judgement at all. I only wanted to understand the probable differences between the two colonies. Nothing more.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

thericeguy said:


> I was not implying it was wrong, evil, or unnatural in any way to feed hives if you own 1 or 10000. I made nor think any judgement at all. I only wanted to understand the probable differences between the two colonies. Nothing more.


I understood what you meant: you were wondering how wild hives survived without people helping them. I was trying to say that often they don"t!


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Well, 5 words adressed the question basically saying who knows, anything and everything. All the other words seemed like a justification for feeding. 

Often, they might not, but they must have been surviving in sufficient numbers or else there would have been no wild bees to domesticate. As I feared, it is turning into s derail. Exactly what I did not want. I will just go with cultivating bees in climates colder than natural and robbing honey they would otherwise have as a resource in the absence of a better answer.


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## Dukardfarm (Jan 13, 2016)

Thank you everyone for your responses. How many frames of honey, in your estimate, would be needed for them to survive the spring in the Midwest?.. Not including the supplemental feeding.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

It depends on how many bees you have in the hive and how much of the winter is left. Just the other year we had 2 big blizzard in May, but many years the last freeze is early April. 

I regret this is not a question I can answer. I feed to be on the safe side.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Wild hives do die during the winter mostly due to a poor location IE hollow to small in the tree.

For the most part a wild hive starts collecting at the same time in the spring as the kept hive. they collect and store all summer long and into the fall, every drop of nectar, every bit of pollen and all the proplis they made is theirs and theirs alone.

The kept colony does about the same thing except there is a bee keeper who robs the hive of pollen, proplis and nectar reduced to honey. They are only allowed a small protation of what they gather and make to have for winter.

The kept colony's are kept in several configurations but for winter any place the colony should be 90% full of honey, pollen to make it thru the winter.

After the fall robbing by the beekeeper attention should be given to what the hive is doing a couple months before every thing dies. Lots of golden rod blooming means nothing if it is so dry there is no nectar to gather and little pollen. Same with the Asters. If you do not see the frames being filled with what nature provides then don't be a cheap skate and buy sugar to make syrup, buy pollen subtitles for pollen too.
50 pounds of sugar is way cheaper than a 3 pound package of bees.

 Al


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Ty Al. I suspected as much as a primary explanation and asked for a reason. I would like to start a few bee hives, but not for all the reasons typical. At the moment, I do not need to rob any honey for my own uses. I want pollinators, not honey. For hive strength and reduced maintenance, I wondered if never taking honey could actually benefit the bees. 

I realize this would label me a beehaver, a derogotory term. But I am ok with that.


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