# Well water issues driving me insane - changes colour when boiled



## Rectifier

Hi guys,
I bought my homestead at the start of this year and am moving out full time next spring.
All year I have been trying to fix issues with the well water and they are never ending, maybe someone else has experienced some of these... I used to be a chemist and think I know what I am doing, but have no access to reagents or a lab anymore unfortunately.

I had this water professionally tested by the government and the only detected issue was high nitrates and slightly elevated uranium. So these other issues are baffling, especially since the tests showed no metals in levels greater than ppb...

First and foremost, the well is 50' deep, 30" casing and in a bad location where it draws water from the stock yard and is contaminated with nitrates. So I never plan to drink it, but just use it for washing and garden irrigation... It is OK for sheep to drink (200ppm) and I am never going to use the lower corral that is near the well. Hopefully the nitrates will dilute away with time as the aquifer flushes. They have already dropped from 360ppm at the start of the year when the previous owner had cows in there.


Anyways the first issue was that the water came out green. Could not be filtered out with a micron filter. A film was on the surface of the well (shattered when poked - not oil, possibly iron bacteria) I shock chlorinated the well and now the water is clear. This likely means it was some kind of pigment or tannins. Now the only issues left are the big ones:

- Water cannot be distilled to purify it. On boiling, a small amount of an oily substance is formed that floats on the surface. This substance boils across into the distillate, can be seen floating on the surface in tiny spots, and causes a strange odour much like damp flour (ever run a still with flour paste as the sealant? that smell.) Other waters in the area do not produce this smell. It is VERY strange that it only develops after boiling. I'm pretty sure it's not herbicide as only pasture and corrals run off to the catchment area, and most herbicides are water soluble. The still is all stainless steel. Trying to figure this out this led into this second issue...

- Water changes colour when boiled! Very strange as well - it goes from crystal clear to brownish yellow. TDS meter reads a significant increase in dissolved solids despite the fact that a large amount of carbonates are precipitated and TDS should go down. I can't understand this unless there is some sort of organic chelated iron in it that breaks up when heated, freeing the iron. I cannot find ANY information or documentation on this issue.

- Insane hardness. A ton of precipitate is formed when boiling. Thick scale on taps, tub, sink, anywhere water leaks. The scale is brown, which again says iron, to me. Test strips are "off the chart" and TDS meter is too. Dilution with distilled water and testing with the TDS meter shows water contains around 2000ppm dissolved solids. That's 2 grams per litre! Has anyone ever had to deal with such hard water, and should I care? I remember my grandfather's farm had stalactites growing from the taps and we just drank it. It never even clogged the dishwasher. I am working on a micro lime-softening pilot plant, but I don't think anyone has ever made a lime-softening plant this small (they tend to be for whole municipalities)

Anyways partly venting about this stupid well, and partly hoping someone else has had the water-changing-colour issue!


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## Harry Chickpea

I'd say those government tests are worth about as much as the government.

The bottom line is that you want to use the water, but not for drinking.

If you were a chemist, I doubt I'm going to show you anything new, just read the following as reminders.

If you would care to do some experiments -

The common way of precipitating out crud is to mix in alum. Look in the preserving aisle or a Mennonite store for enough to play with.

Another recently discovered way of doing much the same is chickpea flour. Health food store or Indian ethnic market (chickpea dal) It appears that the crud is supposed to stick to it.

Some materials will precipitate or become better behaved with chlorine. Excess chlorine can be aerated out afterwards.

You can also prefilter with a drum containing layers with sand, charcoal, gravel, and topped with chopped hay and use a small pump, like a small fountain pump, to trickle water through at a slow rate.

Green - algae or copper
Oil - any oil sands around? Could be natural - or their could have been a stock oiler in long use, a diesel spill, or stuff dumped down the well including animal corpses or offal.

Brown - iron - or blood?

With a 30" casing near a stockyard, I would guess that at some point that well was fouled.

Sample sand filters:
http://www.surferswithoutborders.org/Slow_Sand_Filter_files/sandfiltration.pdf


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## farmrbrown

Harry's analysis is about the same as mine. Copper oxides are bluish green and iron oxides are reddish brown. Remember that the center of a hemoglobin molecule is Fe.
Not being able to distill it is weird though, I'd say that means it is a LOT more fouled than the gov't tests showed.
My chemistry days were long ago, but I'd go back thru some old books and look for characteristics of Cu/Fe/oxide/nitrate/sulfate combinations that match what you have.
I think copper and iron have a couple oxidation numbers (Fe II, III, etc.) so the same base element can have different characteristics. One of those combo's is going to be soluble in water at room temp, and change solubility at 100*C.
Good luck and don't drink the water!


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## fishhead

What happens when you aerate it? Try shaking a seal jar about 1/2 full and let it set.

Mine always gets a layer of precipitate when I let it sit overnight.


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## Rectifier

Harry, this is why I post these things! I had the alum sitting right there from a previous test, where it produced a ton of floc but would not precipitate the colour. But my stupid brain forgot all about it.

So I added alum and dropped out a ton of floc. It was very fine and wouldn't filter with a coffee filter (the only filter I had around) even after settling overnight. So I let it settle again, and tried to pour off the clear water. Probably got 90% clear water with some floating floc in it.

When this clear water was boiled, there was no colour change! Also, no precipitation of scale as the alum has made the water acidic. Neutralizing some water with baking soda and continuing to boil it resulted in still no colour change, but some precipitates forming. So whatever changes colour is likely amongst the colloidal junk. Also, TDS didn't rise this time with boiling, except a little bit due to concentration.

I tried distilling it and the distillate had no floating oil drops, and a lot less odour. A taste test found it to be "not bad" rather than "spit it out now what the heck is in that", though I did still spit it out. Perhaps if I could have micron or sand filtered out all the floc, this could have eliminated it completely? I'll have to try to find out. 

Now the question is, what is it? Alum can only flocculate colloids, not precipitate dissolved solids (and this was proven with the TDS meter - TDS went up by roughly the amount of alum added, and no other change.) 

So what is colloidal and breaks down into oil and pigments when boiled? I'm guessing possibly some type of cellular organism, an algae or bacteria. Algae are well known to contain oils. They should all have been killed by the bleach (water still smelled of chlorine), but perhaps boiling breaks up the cells and frees the oils?

Another option is an oil that is adsorbed onto a natural colloid such as clay particles, which is released when heated.

Whatever the odour agent is, it is definitely freed by boiling, and likely detectable in miniscule concentrations.

About the well being intentionally fouled, it's not likely. This well supplies the watering bowls and the house, and my homestead has been continuously occupied for 100 years and the yard used for cattle or sheep. Only a crazy idiot would dump a carcass down the well known to supply all the water for their own property! Also, I've seen cases of that in dewatering sumps where only a small dead animal (bird, rat etc) causes all the water to be horribly foul, releases H2S etc... this water is not that bad. No odour at all except the hard water mineral smell, and no bad taste. I've brushed my teeth with it - so much mineral it leaves your mouth feeling dry.

This is definitely good news as my planned process (lime softening) creates a precipitate that acts as a flocculant. This water may be salvageable after all!


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## farmrbrown

*So what is colloidal and breaks down into oil and pigments when boiled? I'm guessing possibly some type of cellular organism, an algae or bacteria. Algae are well known to contain oils. They should all have been killed by the bleach (water still smelled of chlorine), but perhaps boiling breaks up the cells and frees the oils?
*


Iron?

http://water.me.vccs.edu/courses/ENV115/lesson7.htm





Iron and Manganese Indicators

In wells the oxygen content is low and the iron and manganese bearing water is colorless and clear, meaning the iron and manganese is dissolved. Your water from your tap may look clear but after it is exposed to air the iron and manganese become oxidized and change from being colorless, dissolved form to colored and solid form.

The oxidation of the dissolved iron particles that are in the water will change to a white, then yellow and finally a red-brown solid particle that will settle out of the water. If the iron does not form particles that are large enough to settle and stay suspended this will leave the water a red tint. The manganese will usually dissolve in the water but in very shallow wells the manganese will be a black tint. The sediments are the cause for staining properties of a water supply that contain high levels of iron and manganese. They can also cause the pipes to become plugged, therefore reducing the flow of water.

The color and the flavor of food and water are affected by iron and manganese. These elements can react with the tannins that are found in coffee and tea and can produce a black sludge. In water, when present, manganese is objectionable in smaller amounts than iron.

Another problem with iron in a water supply is the reddish-brown staining on laundry, glassware dishes and utensils. Manganese also acts in the same way but will causes a brownish-black stain. These stains can not be removed with detergents or soaps and when chlorine bleach and alkaline builders are used, they will cause the stains to become worse.

The build-up of iron and manganese deposits can be found in water heaters, pipelines, water softeners and pressure tanks. This can become an expensive problem due to replacement cost for the equipment. They can also cause an increase in the cost of energy to pump the water through the constricted pipes and water being heated with the heating rods in the water heater that have become coated with the mineral deposits.

*Another problem that can arise from iron and manganese in water is iron and manganese bacteria. The nonpathogenic bacteria occur naturally in soil, some surface waters and shallow aquifers. Bacteria feed on these two elements in water. The bacteria will form a red-brown (iron) or black-brown (manganese) slime in toilet tanks and also clog the water systems.*







Testing Water for Iron and Manganese

The form of the element, iron or manganese, will determine what method should be used to test the water. If the water is clear when first drawn but red or black particles begin to appear after the water sits in the glass, then there is a presence of iron or manganese (ferrous) in the water. *But if the water appears to have red tint particles that are to small that they are not detectable and do not settle over a period of time then colloidal (ferric) iron is the cause of the problem.*

In some cases, laboratory tests are needed to quantify as to what extent of iron and manganese contamination has occurred, but also additional water parameters such as pH, oxygen content, hardness, sulfur and silica content may also be required to determine what appropriate water treatment for the system. These tests can be done by Environmental Quality and laboratories located in your state.


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## Rectifier

Good try, but oxidizing the water will not form the colour. Oxidizing with air or with bleach has no effect. Only raising the temperature will cause the colouration. Also, the colour will not settle out, and once formed, will also not flocculate with alum, meaning it is dissolved and not a solid particle like these forms of iron described.

Dissolved iron is not a colloid, it is in ionic form and should not be removable by flocculation, which did remove whatever the precursor of the colour was. Also, the precipitate is milky white with no hint of colour.

It could be releasing iron from dead iron bacteria when boiled, possibly? This would explain the rise in TDS.

For lack of reagents, I'll try to boil a potato in some discoloured boiled water. If it turns black, that would support the iron theory.


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## Harry Chickpea

Hydrogen sulfide - swamp water - protozoans - decaying vegetation - manure infusions - cattle poo - hay

The alum working does limit the list of possible offenders. I get a chuckle in that what you are doing is pre-digesting the water. The stomach acidifies food, and the duodenum flips it back into base territory. The alum/NaCO2 is doing the same.

Coffee filters are pretty coarse. Problem is, that with what you describe, a micron filter will clog quickly. A centrifugal separator (cream separator) might work to speed the process. Or... you could try pool shock, which is pretty intense and a 1 lb bag will floc out the world in a day or two if you have a good sized cistern.

If you have access to a good microscope and some stains, I'll bet lunch that you find protozoans and algae.

I would demand money back from that testing facility in any event. Either that or expose it as a threat to public health.


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## simi-steading

I'd take a look at a hydrogen peroxide injection system along with a large carbon filter tank.. 

The peroxide will cause any iron to oxidize and release as particles into the water.. It will also kill any bacteria or algee.. the carbon tank filter will remove what the peroxide has oxidized..

A good test for you to find out would be take a jar and put a small amount of peroxide in the bottom.. add some of your water, then mix well and let sit... If it changes from clear to a reddish or other color, and you see particles settling, then you know it would be a good system for you.


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## Junkhound

Washing a well out with soapy water, and then pumping the well to waste will get rid of most contamination that is not naturally occurring. You can wash it from the top down with a hose so that you do not increase the static head and make the well "drink" the soapy water into the formation. Wash down the casing also. Pump it out, let the well "recover", pump out again. Sometimes it will take 4 or 5 pumpings to get rid of the soap. At this point you will have water from the formation that is naturally occurring. This is the water to develop a treatment process for. In 30 years of well drilling/rehabilitation I have seen quite a few "dirty" wells, that when washed out, required very little, if any treatment. Just my 2 cents.
junkhound


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## Rectifier

Thanks guys, I guess it is getting "pre-digested" never thought of it that way, heh. But the alum is more for the Al3+ to create floc than the acidification, anyways. I wish I had a microscope, and I agree that a micron filter will clog, I was planning on letting it settle in a couple of tanks. I just found a nice solid brass venturi mixer, intended for fertilizer, that I can use to dose alum or lime, and let the mixture into the bottom of a contact tank. It would be stirred up with an agitator, then let to settle. After settling, more dosed water is let into the bottom to push the clean water over the top. That water would go through a sand bed to a cistern, where it would be pressurized for distribution. Batch process. Continuous would be too much work to keep the sludge from creeping over.

Junkhound, I've never heard of this and it's very interesting. Could you give some more details on how this soapy water wash is done. What kind of soap? I already did a similar process with chlorine bleach. Is there physical scrubbing? Pressurewashing? My well was rated at 300GPM, which seems still valid, as I can't even make a dent in it with my 150GPM 2" discharge submersible. Perhaps a gas powered pump could get it down to 25', max suction head, but there is still another 25' underneath full of water? You made me think though, about pumping from the TOP of the well to cycle all the water through and get fresh water, instead of using the well pump, which will only pull new water from the formation and not clean out the old water sitting in the casing.


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## Harry Chickpea

Totally agree with your idea of batch processing. I also understand that you aren't intentionally "pre-digesting" the water as such, just was amused by the similarities.


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## Rectifier

Finally got hold of some lime. Hard to get around here, ridiculous. So I have a bag of slaked dolomitic, which wasn't what I wanted. 30% MgOH, bleh. Luckily MgOH is very low solubility, so I stirred up a jar of saturated lime, and let it settle, covered, for a week, until it was no longer limewater + milk of magnesia. Tomorrow going to decant off the limewater and mix it 1:1 with the well water, should result in almost complete precipitation of carbonates.

I did an initial test last weekend with the limewater still milky with MgOH, added enough to raise the pH to 11, then the calculated amount to precipitate all the carbonate. It successfully dropped the TDS reading from 2000 to 700 ppm, dropped a lot of precipitate, but still smelled limey at pH 11. Let it settle, decanted clear water. Shook it in a jar to redissolve CO2 and precipitate remaining lime. After 1 hour of settling, clear, no odour, pH 7... don't have the guts to take a swig though as since there is probably a lot of MgOH, plus the nitrate is still there, so it will go right through me!

Should be pretty sanitary as the pH has been up to 11, killing most bacteria, and anything in suspension should be floc'd out by the CaCO3 precipitate. Pretty happy to see the actual process working even on a tiny scale. Doubt the actual ppm is 700 as those conductivity meters read different depending on what the ions are. 200ppm should still be there as nitrate, so 300ppm hardness is a huge improvement!


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## Harry Chickpea

If you give it to animals, it might give a whole new meaning to sheep run. 

Now you just need to bubble the gas from your whiskey mash into a cistern. "But officer..." BTW, magnesium can act as a floc as well so don't be too certain that it is remaining in the water. When I do a jacuzzi with a little epsom salts, it does a wonderful job of floccing out the -5 micron dirt in the water.


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## where I want to

From someone who is barely able to grasp this discussion at all, but will read it again as I really want to understand it, the thought occurred to me that the color alone might be as issue with the vessel you are using to heat the water, if the only time it shows up is when you heat it. A reaction with the metal?
Does the water heater cause it to be brown too?
Such an informative discussion.


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## Rectifier

Harry I like the idea of that "just a CO2 generator, corn is just the cheapest thing I can ferment"  I am hoping that aeration can be used to neutralize it with atmospheric CO2, because CO2 sources are a pain to keep running constantly, and someone has to drink all that whiskey after all!
Since the water is clear, and Ksp of MgOH is to the 10^-11, it's true that most ("all") of it is part of the floc. I didn't have time to experiment today but tomorrow I will do up a bigger batch with the clear limewater and give it a taste, and boil/distill some to see how it works.
I'll try to get some "high-cal" lime which is pure CaOH for the actual pilot plant. The rest of the slaked dolomitic can go on the chicken coop as whitewash, it's actually really good for that :happy:

where I want to: I don't expect too many people to understand this thread fully unless they have studied some chemistry or worked with water treatment before. Suffice it to say that we determined the coloured contaminant to be a microscopic particle ("colloid"), possibly iron, and not dissolved, and it will change colour even when microwaved in a glass container.

Once the pilot plant is working, I plan to do a blog post and info thread detailing the build and operation, hopefully more accessible to people who might be interested in water softening using lime instead of salt, and perhaps explain some terms like "flocculation" and what it's good for in more detail.


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## Rectifier

Success! I went to a split process where I overdosed half of the water to create saturated limewater, settle the precipitate, mix with the other half of raw water, stir for contact time, aerate to neutralize, then settle again. pH 7, no need for concentrated CO2.

Resulting water tastes good, doesn't precipitate or change colour when boiled, foams soap well, too bad the nitrate is still in there.

Proof in the pudding, here's some pics in the form of a post on my blog showing the horribly hard water before, and the clear output http://blog.evansranch.ca/?p=143

Obviously a huge amount of dissolved solids has been removed, at no point has any other liquid been added, and the pH is about the same (drop from 8 to 7, both measured fully aerated). This water was from the same jug drawn from the well, so no variability in feed water either.

Designing a plant now, good times! Should only need 2 tanks and a cistern for storage.


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## Harry Chickpea

Excellent job, excellent web page describing the process. You've got me going on those remaining problems though. 

If it is just nitrates remaining, the distillation should go normally, according to this: 
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/crops/00517.html

Something else is going on.

You might try hot filtering boiling finished water through a small sand filter before introducing it to the still. An initial open boil or heating to sub-boiling might allow volatiles to escape a la fractional distillation, and then ... wait a minute... something just clicked in the back of my mind...

...nitroglycerine is oily, but I doubt you are making that... HOWEVER... nitrosamines can create a yellowish "oil." AHHH! Check this page and links - 
http://www.chemguide.co.uk/organicprops/amines/nitrousacid.html

Aquariums have nitrate problems as well, this page shows the use of lava rock substrate to house bacteria that will digest it:
http://www.petfishtalk.com/shows_special/denitrification/denitrification.htm

Using the bacteria requires another step - de-oxygenation of the water. Ammonium sulfate might work, but I might want to have some fun and try bubbling the water with oxygen depleted air, such as the exhaust from a mower motor or even air from a closed container that I had burned a candle in. (Henry would be proud  ) 


You might also avoid the distillation altogether and just use reverse osmosis.

I am really curious what else is in that water. Some sort of catalyzing agent, some other volatile?

Fun stuff.


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