# 'Tins', Actual Metal Cans For Canning...



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I'm new at this, about 3 years 'Wet Tinning' as it used to be called.

I did a lot of dry goods before, but I couldn't find enough information on 'Wet Tinning' in one place at one time to run with it.
This is what I've got so far...

The pressure canner process doesn't change, same times & pressures with no issues.

Do NOT do a pressure release on the canner, let the pressure reduce on it's own with weight in place.
Reducing heat when time is up, instead of just removing canner from heat, allowing the contents to remain stable and NOT cool too quickly reduces boiling over & 'Slops'.

Add a little extra headspace so contents don't boil/slop out into seal/seam area.
Anything in the seal/seam area will reduce shelf life or cause a total failure.

BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN LIFTING CANS OUT OF CANNER, DO NOT DISLODGE THE LIDS!

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THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THE SEALER/SEAMER SETUP!
SET UP THE LID SEAMER ('Sealer') CORRECTLY AND CHECK IT OFTEN!

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'Sealing' the cans with a crimp is called 'Seaming' the can lid to the can body, and this is where I screwed up things the most.
I now have gauges (gauge wires) I use between the seaming rollers & head to make positive sure the seam is being formed correctly!

I set the machine up, run a can, cut the seam with a Dremel tool (a fine hack saw would also work) and check the crimped seam with a magnifying glass.
Correct if necessary.

Seaming (Sealing) machines are NOT created equal!
The open 'C' clamp type frames deflect and allow the down pressure on the can lids to decrease.
The 'Head', or 'Anvil' the rollers press the can/lid against are often undersized, or out of round, allow the can to wobble which screws the seam up.

NOT ALL SEAMING DIES WORK WITH ALL CANS!
Use cans that work with your die rollers.

Industrial machines are HUGE, rock solid, rigid, with heads that do not move and fit the can lid/can precisely, and until I gauged the flex/twist/stretch of the frame I had plenty of failures.
An 'O' frame press/seamer would make a LOT more sense than the current 'C' frames about all small scale & home canners use.
Some of the very old seamers had upright frame bars on both sides of the can, and that makes for a LOT more rigid frame design.

'Tins' (Cans) WILL have an expiration date, period.
This is simply because the can is sterile when it's in the canner, but the lid isn't 100% sealed until it hits the seamer...
And that's only AFTER it's cooled and sucked in outside air from the atmosphere.
It's no longer 100% sterile no matter what you do, but leaving the can cool IN the canner keeps contamination to a minimum, and getting the best seal/seam possible will extend shelf life.
So will storage in a cool place, the cooler temps inhibit anything that might have entered the can.

I have 3 year old food I'm still eating, but the 'Recommended' shelf life is about 1 year.

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Tins, the body of the can, can be reused for 'Dry' storage after the 'Wet' contents have been removed,
But that takes a 'Flanger' tool to restore the top flange to the can body, and a new lid, along with some adjustment of the seaming machine to accommodate a shorter can where the previous seam was removed.
It *Can* be done, but it takes a seam remover to precisely remove the old seam/metal, and a flanger to put a new flange on the can body, so it's work and more equipment...


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

I commend you for your perseverance. Sure sounds like a LOT of work. Makes me love my jars more.

BTW: Welcome to HT!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You should post some photos of your setup.
My grandmother always did glass canning but wrapped them in tin foil for specific foods.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

After re-reading what I wrote, it didn't come through like I wanted...

You put your product (meat, soup, whatever) in the 'Tins'.
I'm going to use 'Tins' for the metal can body simply because 'Can', 'Canner', 'Canning' is going to come up A LOT! 

I put the product in the tin, put them in a water bath, do the 'Dutch Oven' thing sitting the tin in a pan of water, or in the bottom of the canner,
Light a fire and run the product up to 180*F.
If it's meat, use a thermometer stabbed IN the meat, the core temp has to reach 170*F-180*F

This is about cooking temp for soups, so when the soup is done, I simply load the cans.
Clean the rim, put a lid on and seam (crimp) the lid on in the seaming machine.

SEALED tins go into the pressure canner, and get about 90-120 minutes at pressure just like jars do.
The pressure inside the canner keeps the tins from exploding, 
But you DO NOT want to 'Cheat' on off-pressuring, do NOT manually vent the pressure canner,
Let it cool down and pressure drop or the tins will blow out seals.
Leave the weight in place all through the cool down cycle.

When the tins come out, handle them gently, sit on counter and allow to fully cool (12-24 hours).
The tops of the tins will 'Suck Down', and they are ready to store.

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To help with potatoes, making soup, etc.
I use hot (simmering) water on ingredients, then bring ingredients/water up to 180*F in water bath, then seal the tin.
The soup/potatoes etc will cook in the tin while in the pressure canner, so no worriers about that.

The only 'Issue' I run I to was beans and red meat.
Fish can go right in the tin raw,
Low fat red meat (game) I brown in a skillet before it goes in the tin, what cooks out (juice/fat) goes in the tin also,
Beef goes in raw because of the fat, and I use 1/4-1/2 teaspoon of sea salt on beef. 
(Beef comes out much more tender and tasty when I use sea salt)

Dried beans need to be soaked/softened before they go in the tin.
They soak a BUNCH of water up, and the space between beans isn't enough for added water.
Soak beans, add water to fill up the tin, run up to temp (170*F-180*F) and seal the tin like everything else, then into the pressure canner.

It took a bit, but once I got the amounts of ham, soaked beans, spices, butter broken down for smaller tins, ham & bean soup comes out ham & bean soup without being too soggy.
(The longer it stays in the tin, the soggier it gets, naturally...)

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Since I often run the tins/product up to 180*F temp in the canner, I confused myself when I re-read the first post! 
I'm easy to confuse, but it didn't make sense to me and i wrote it! 

High acid, or high salt product NEEDS a tin lined for corrosives, not the usual food grade lining.
My tomato juice and diced tomatoes in juice ate right through the can in about a year.

I found two brands of tins/lids that work with my machine rollers, one aluminum and one steel.
Thankfully, they are the most common and least expensive, the higher priced 'Premium' tins didn't want to seal correctly, I'm not saying they wouldn't have sealed, the seam just didn't look quite right, it had more air gap at the top bend than the tutorials showed as 'Correct'.

It's the same brands the LDS distributors sell to the public, so that makes it easy to buy in bulk and not pay shipping.
The tapered 'Stacking' tins (usually aluminum) ship quite well, but the straight side 3 piece tins won't 'Nest' for shipping, so it's a lot of bulk when shipping.
(LDS = Latter Day Saints, the religious group has tinning & canning supplies, bulk products, and they sell to the public)


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Very inspiring, but I guess I didn't catch from your posts why you chose to tin can everything instead of say, dry goods?


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I have *Some* tins from 3 years ago, some from 2 years ago, some that aren't quite a year old.
If the tin doesn't seal and 'Suck Down' upon cooling, which I've had half a dozen,
I've only had two fails in storage, where they sucked down and then later released over time.
These were both green beans from the same batch...

This exempts my tomato fails, which was my first 'Test' batch when I didn't know about corrosives in common lined tins.
Also, don't put high acid in aluminum... EVER, no matter the liner.
All aluminum failed with tomatoes & pasta sauce, THEN I read the manufacturer's instructions... (Instructions? We don't need no stinking instructions!  )
These fails we're all my first 'Test' batch with tomatoes, so I didn't loose a lot and it was only to open at 1 year, two year, three years, etc to see how I did... (... Terrible, just awful ...)


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> Very inspiring, but I guess I didn't catch from your posts why you chose to tin can everything instead of say, dry goods?


I glass jar preserved everything for years.
I even learned to put a complete meal in one jar...

I got a can seamer for cheap, and decided to try it.
I dry (oxygen absorbers, then oven dried) tinned several things, from ammo to soap.
All that turned out REALLY well!

Most people roll their eyes at something like soap, but when we learned to make soap (just to see if we could) the natural extension in my world was to see how long I could make it last...
Just the way my mind works, and it's cheaper than a drug habit or buying a $60,000 bass boat!

Then I tinned dry foods, and that turned out really well...
From bulk to noodles/pasta.

Keep in mind I grew up in the 60's in a farm family,
While the boys did the garden end of things, the women/girls did the canning,
So when I started canning in jars, I had to start from scratch.

I could make a HUGE garden that produced like crazy, but the preservation was another story...
My wife had the fundamentals (also a farm kid) but I went much larger scale, there is economy in scale, and I wanted to streamline the process...
There are TONS of books written on jars & pressure preserving, so it was easy to learn.

We dry, pickle, ferment, glass jar, and tins were the missing link I didn't have, and she had never done it, so learning curve from zero...

Since I have a full machine shop 350 yards from the house, and I'm a machinist by trade, I understand the mechanical end of things, and I thought I'd pass it along.

The preparation of food and the sterilization process I had to learn, and I'm still learning...
That's why I asked for ideas, tips, tricks, etc.
I may be 60 years old, but I learn something every day or the day is about wasted.

I LOVE gadgets, seaming machines & pressure canners are gadgets! (Cool gadgets!)
I have a bunch of old grinders, mills, processing equipment from days past, and they are all gadgets.
If you notice, I classify, clarify, revise information so it's clear to me, and hopefully to others...
'Tinning' isn't something you can just buy a book where the information is all in one place, and I've spent about 6 years 'Fiddling' around collecting bits of information, or finding issues on my own... Getting with someone like minded would help me out, and this seemed like a place to do it (if they can put up with me...).

Tins, or cans, are air tight, light tight, weight efficient, and if you do this in scale, the process is efficient, and I get exactly what I want out of the tin/jar.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> You should post some photos of your setup.
> My grandmother always did glass canning but wrapped them in tin foil for specific foods.


That was something my grandmother did also.
I *Think* it was to reuse foil, and to keep light out of the jar...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

OK, I pulled the trigger on a temperature data logger.
It goes in one of the cans, and that can goes in the middle of your canner bundle.
It records the temp rise and time,
This will let me figure out the time it takes to reach the 230°F-240°F mark needed to kill botulism (the hardest to kill common pest).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MZ4J1F0/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_hfqmDb09E70CD










Once if figure out the time it takes to get up to temp to kill bad stuff,
AND,
I figure out where the temp drops so I can vent the canner without cans exploding from internal temp,
I can quick cool the cans so food doesn't over cook.

That will be a big deal with meat, no one likes over cooked, tough meat, or veggies that are over cooked and soggy/mushy...

You can't quick cook jars without them cracking, but you can quick cool cans and stop the cooking process when they drop below boiling!

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I picked up a couple more seamer machines (manual, hand cranked) so I guess I'm going to need to restore them. Something made 60 to 120 years ago needs a little love, and I need to make them mechanically sound so they do the job correctly...
Looks like I made myself some 'Indoor' work where it's cool when it's over (heat index) 100 outside!
At my age, indoor is good when it's 100 outside!


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

So, an update,
The time/temp data logger doesn't cut a bunch of time off, it still takes quite a bit of time on heat to get up to 230°-240°F to kill botulism.

What has changed is taste/texture.

The beef, chicken (and soon pork) and stuff like apples, pears are MUCH better!
Less break down in apples, pears, etc.
And the meat is MUCH more tender without aftertaste home canned meat has.

This is a bit of a pain, since I need times for each size canning vessel (retort) for heat saturation, and meat is expensive.
The 'Up' side is I don't can a lot of meat, so the smaller canner is enough.

If the cans don't hit target temp, they can go through the retort again, but then you wind up with tough meat & soggy apples/pears.
It's not 'Wasted', but it's not good either.

One thing I've found, I REALLY have to control the heat source.
When I use propane, I've set a wind guard around the retort/burner so the heat transfer is more stable.
That confused me at first, some got up to temp in the time expected, some didn't, and when I got to thinking about it, some days were windy and I was working outside...

The published data is WAY cautious, but it WAY overcooks what ever is in cans/jars,
But without a data logger I had no idea by how much, so this has been worth the education...


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## DaisyDuke (Nov 21, 2017)

I've never heard of home tinned food before! Is it more frugal than canning given you have to replace the whole tin and not just the lids? Aside from high acid foods is there any disadvantage to tins vs cans?


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

DaisyDuke said:


> I've never heard of home tinned food before! Is it more frugal than canning given you have to replace the whole tin and not just the lids? Aside from high acid foods is there any disadvantage to tins vs cans?


One of those 'Yes & No' answers...
More expensive than a new canning jar lid, but often better tasting and better consistency of food on the other end.

Tins in small scale (buying small amounts of cans/lids) will run you about $1 each.
One tip is to get a seamer (can sealer) that seals common size tins, the tins/lids are cheaper.
Another is proportion sizes, while #10 ('Gallon') size tins are all the rage with 'End Of The World' types, tins that have one serving per family member make less waste and make more sense.
I don't want to try and eat a gallon of 'Corn' before the extra goes bad...

You can reuse a tin, with new lid, but your seamer machine needs a trimmer/flanger to prep the tin for reuse.
I'm not aware of any currently being made that have a built in flanger.
I use antique, turn of the 1900s seaming machines, several of those had trimmer/flangers.
For most tins I just use the more modern machines (1950s/1960s), they are easier to adjust & operate.
Can seamers have been made well before 1900 and you can still find them on the surplus & and 'Antique' markets, 
New versions that are hand operated are quite expensive in the US, but eastern Europe & Asia still common home tin, so the machines are less costly and more available.

The idea of tins is durability, and light protection, quick cooling.
Durability,
You can't throw a bunch of glass jars in a sack and haul them around without bad results.
As you see in every store, tins have been a standard shipping container for well over 100 years simply because it's durable, light weight, economical in volume.
Light,
Jars have light issues, sun/light has UV rays, and those attack food color and break down chemical bonds in the food.
The older folks used to wrap jars in tin foil or aluminum, wrap in paper, use colored jars to block UV, a tin doesn't have those issues.
Quick Cooling,
Since a jar MUST be kept under pressure in the retort ('Canner' vessel), the food continues to cook well beyond the sterilization time/temp.
This results in stringy, soggy, overcooked stuff that's just not all that close to what went in the jar.
Tins can come out of the retort after sterilization time/temp and be quick cooled to stop cooking/breaking down of the product/food.

Meat in particular doesn't do well in jars, just meat and a little salt, slow cooked in the can/retort during the process, and it tastes/smells just like cooked meat when it comes out.
None of that bitter, chewy or soggy/slimy stuff that comes out of a jar a lot of the time.

What I like about a temp/time data logger, instead of the flat 90 minutes or 120 minutes or whatever, I'm getting food that's not overcooked, good bye to mushy or stringy!
Knowing exactly how long it takes to reach sterilization temp, and no more, and tins can be quick cooled to stop the cooking process, while jars have to be slow cooled under pressure to seal correctly.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

'Tinning' works best in volume, the larger the retorts ('canning' vessels) the more efficient the process becomes.
Because it's not something 'Extreme', and it's out of fashion, and it pre-dates the internet, not a bunch knows this,
There used to be 'Community' tinning centers, since the retorts & seamer machines can be expensive, and inefficient to fire up for small batches, the community used to have collective equipment.










Experienced people operated boilers, controlled the process so things went well, and inexperienced people did manual labor while learning (on the job training).
Everyone benefits since it's your, and neighbors produce going into the tins.

A video of a small cannery in action,
Food is prepped, put into cans, hot water & steamer line brings it up to around 170°F, the can gets sealed, then goes into the retort, sterilization happens, the cans are quick cooled to stop over cooking.





With homesteaders being an exception (Amish being another) it's HARD to get anyone to do manual labor without a crap fight, and everyone wants to argue about the cost or amount of work they do opposed to others...
The equipment costs $XX, averaged out over Y years, the cans cost $XX this year, or $X per can/lid...

If you look at it as a social event, the labor isn't an issue so no arguments...
You throw a little at equipment costs, you pay for the can/lids and donate labor as a social event, it works out quite well.
While I'm still using the largest consumer retort over propane heat, it's still fairly competitive with store bought, and the more friends & family get in on it the more costs reduce,
But with MUCH better control of what goes into the cans, much better tasting and much LESS additives/chemicals, contamination, etc.

The LABELS are fun!
Whatever you can come up with since you print your own!
Skunks, mules, dogs are common since everyone owns a printer these days,
Cartoon mule kicking backwards for "Kick Your (butt) Chili" is one of my favorites,
One woman puts a picture of her grumpy faced husband on some cans, says it's what she feeds him when he's grumpy.

This is where I come in, I'm a machinist by trade and own a machine shop.
The Seaming Equipment (can 'Sealers') is what first interested me, and I maintiance the equipment so it makes proper seams, stays adjusted, make & harden the die rollers for specific can types, etc.










The growers do the prep work, I keep the machines running, and we use common retorts over LP gas to heat the product.
This year, we tried electro-magnetic induction, no open flame, but I'm still working to see if that's viable long term. It's more efficient heating, it's renewable energy (solar PV), but I don't know how the retorts will be effected long term.
Electro-magnetic induction acts on the retort on a molecular level, so I want to test it before I recommend it.

What I'd REALLY like to have is a boiler man. Boilers used to be common, but not so much anymore and I can't afford to buy a boiler AND large scale retort out of pocket.
I'd buy the commercial size retort in a heartbeat if there was a boiler and boiler man available.
That would reduce overall costs a bunch over small batch.

A small steam heated commercial retort,









Some links if you have further interest...
https://www.nal.usda.gov/exhibits/ipd/canning/exhibits/show/equipment/item/41
https://modernfarmer.com/2014/10/one-last-wwii-era-community-canneries-hangs-rural-virginia/


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

My mom used cans. One year she was given an entire tuna by one of the local fisherman. That was the best tuna I ever ate and the last time I saw her alive she made me a sandwich with that tuna because I asked for all my favorites when I visited. I was in my late teens. I still dream of that sandwich and wish I had asked for the canning equipment.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

painterswife said:


> My mom used cans. One year she was given an entire tuna by one of the local fisherman. That was the best tuna I ever ate and the last time I saw her alive she made me a sandwich with that tuna because I asked for all my favorites when I visited. I was in my late teens. I still dream of that sandwich and wish I had asked for the canning equipment.


I find the seamer (sealers) on eBay and other auction sites, anywhere between $25-35 to several hundred dollars.
There are still two or three American companies left, American, Dixie, Ives-Way.
Since tinning is a 'Niche' market in the US, new these brands cost quite a lot, but haven't changed in decades, so parts still available if you need some for an older model.

China & the former Soviet countries crank them out durable & cheap, but parts are an issue.

Ives-Way & American dealer, be shocked by the price!
https://wellscan.ca/product-category/equipment-parts-accessories/

Keep in mind when you learn the different makers, they also made the same seamers for Sears, Wards, etc and they are ALWAYS less expensive.

This is a Dixie, notice crank handle in back, and sloped top cover?









This is an Ives-Way, which also sold as Sears, Mongomery-Wards, and other brand names.
They all look pretty much alike, side crank, lock handle on the other side, knob top, and that dead give away 'Numbered Steps' window in the front.



















While the USDA no longer supports tin canning, the Canadians do, so the info is out there.
This is a video on canning fish..






Here is one on canning (lean) game meat...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I freely admit a good half my interest in canning, and jarring is the gadgets!
The other half is getting exactly what I want in those cans & jars, what passes for 'Food' these days is an obscene use of the word 'Food'...

I hadn't put the time/temp thing together together, just cooking for the recommended times until I saw this video which snapped all the dots inline in my head.
Why keep cooking when the contents have reached the 230°-240°F Mark and botulism is dead?
Then it's how do you know when botulism is dead since you can't tell when the contents reach target temp?






Putting a thermometer with a clock in the can is how you figure it out!
I'm not real smart, but I know a good idea when I steal it! 

I have to give my wife credit, she found the video.

So I poke around on Amazon a little for a data logger, and found the food grade data logger in post #9, for under $100 I'm off to the races.
Cans or jars, doesn't matter, now I know pretty much exactly how long it takes MY canner to reach target time over MY propane burners with MY contents.
It's another gadget, so I'm doubly happy! (... Insert wife's eye roll here...)
My wife gets it now, and once she saw results, she learned to use it, so I'm not entirely out in left field if she approves.

Pretty much everything turns out better when it's not overcooked...
Particularly expensive meat.

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MY MISTAKE in the post above,
The Ives-Way and Dixie canners are 'Automatic' units.
Once you use a little wire to make sure rollers are adjusted correctly to bend the can/lid properly, it's put your can & lid in the machine, pull the lever to clamp can/lid I to place and crank the handle.
The game meat and fish videos above show an Ives-Way seamer in use,

The 'National' brand (common on the used market) and 'American' brands are also 'Automatic'.
If you know someone 'Handy', the All American canners are STUPID expensive,
BUT,
They are pretty well built for a common drive motor to work with them, and when you do a bunch by yourself a drive motor is REAL handy!






A bunch of the older models you have levers to pull while cranking for the sealing steps, so not ideal when learning.


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