# Zero Self Protection Mentality...



## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

I wrote this on my Facebook wall/status. I'm reposting it here for discussion specifically on the behavior of the onlookers in this story/link...and why this behavior should never ever be allowed to become the new "norm" here in America...
I was so fired up when I wrote this:

~*~*~*~*~*~:
This is long. It's political...and so much more. I think of it as a clear warning. I've written and deleted this, then rewritten. I'm posting this link because it shakes me to the core. I'm serious...never more serious. It's not pretty, it's absolutely not funny, nor is it PC. I feel it's a relevant wake up call to what happens when a society takes away/gives away/votes away the ability of each individual to protect their self or those around them ...hoping that'll make for a safer community, country, world. It's the perfect "poster child" example of the mentality of a people who don't know how to react to, or fail to, take action to protect themselves when faced with a menacing evil on their own neighborhood sidewalks. 

I may lose a few Facebook friends over this. I accept that. I felt it was important enough to post , especially for those friends who lead busy lives and don't listen much to what's going on in the national and world news. 

This past week a young man minding his business, was walking in a residential suburb of London. That's all, just .walking. on. a .sidewalk. He was wearing a teeshirt that promoted helping wounded soldiers, and blue jeans. He was a young husband and a British soldier- off duty. Just walking. down. the. sidewalk. with. plenty. of. other. people....plenty. In the middle of the day- in an urban neighborhood, a young man was confronted by two men who grabbed him, yanked his backpack off, and proceeded to hack him to pieces with long knives and a meat cleaver. The two men- of Somali heritage - Islamic faith if you will, finally succeeded in beheading the young man and drug his remains into the busy street as people watching-standing around, except for one lone person, a woman, took out their cellphones to take photos. You should note that one of the men had a handgun- which is illegal in the UK. Who had the gun? The bad guy...and the law enforcement officials. 

You know... I'm asking you to listen to this clip to see what I mean. Please set aside whatever you feel about Glenn Beck personally. If you can't stand him...fine! I get that. But please this time, listen to his point in this clip. Pretend it's not him if you have to...please listen to this monologue. Some will wave him off and call it alarmist, drama... He is that at times...but I could not agree more with his analysis of this event and what it really ~really~ means for the future of our own society. (((If nothing else, please just take from this, the behaviors of the people involved))). Please think what would happen if this had taken place in your own neighborhood? 
If you don't think you want to watch/listen. Then just take a look at the photo of one of the murderers below. Look At his demeanor, his bloody hands, his cleaver. He's being filmed immediately after he beheaded a young man in the 20 minutes it took for the "help" to arrive. Yeah...20 minutes. In town. The "help"= LEO finally arrived 20 minutes later... the only other people with something more than a cleaver...or a phone. 
-Thank you, 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...-londoners-who-stood-by-during-terror-attack/


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## BlueRose (Mar 7, 2013)

I can not believe that only 1 person stood up to these terrorist. It took 20 minutes for 'help' to arrive. I pray that I will never see this happen here in the Country my family members have died defending our freedom to protect ourselves.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I watched that on the news and could not believe a group did not get together to pull him off and beat the snot out of him.

I hope in America someone would have shot him before he could do more than just barely get started.


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## backwoods (Sep 12, 2004)

I completely agree with what Beck is saying. It did not escape my notice the 1st time I viewed that vid the day it happened, that some of the people seemed to be strolling past like nothing was happening, and the others were standing by with their phones pointed at that maniac. As horribly disturbing as it was, and what had just happened, I was watching it and saying to my son, "What the h*** is wrong with those people??? Why are they just walking by like nothing is happening? Their taking pictures so they can sell them to the Enquirer??? Why aren't they trying to do something!" My son said, "Well, that guy has a gun, a knife, and a meat cleaver, I guess they figure a phone is not much to go up against all that with, besides, they've been "neutering" the young men there for decades now. No one "expects" them to do anything, anymore." I was caught between feeling extremely angry and extremely sad. Are we all to become passive by-stander's in life? So numb or afraid or dis-interested that we don't care or don't want to see, or help, someone being murdered right before our eyes? Are we already the "walking dead," or are we becoming like the zebras running in a herd, just hoping we aren't the one to get singled out, instead of joining together, to overthrow our enemy? I believe we still have enough good people with enough guts to stand up to blatant evil, in this country. It's the young who haven't been taught yet that there are things worth dying for, sacrificing for, that are more important than any one of us, individually, that I worry about. With the continued indoctrination of these young people, we don't stand a chance as a country.


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## Usingmyrights (Jan 10, 2011)

You know, I heard about this story, but not much. I don't watch tv and don't remember seeing it on the normal news I look at. It is sad though that people would just stand by for that.


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## backwoods (Sep 12, 2004)

Usingmyrights said:


> You know, I heard about this story, but not much. I don't watch tv and don't remember seeing it on the normal news I look at. It is sad though that people would just stand by for that.


" I don't watch tv and don't remember seeing it on the normal news I look at."

That's because you won't see a LOT of things that are going on in the world, on the "normal" news. They haven't been reporting on it unless the present administration wanted you to know about it. Back when I was in grade school in the 60's, we laughed at what fools the Russian's were for believing in the govt. "propaganda" they were being fed.
Now...we are the one's being fed the bs.
Fast forward to the past weeks: the media is really ticked off at having been spyed on, by our govt. so maybe, just maybe, they are waking up.
And yes, it is VERY sad.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

I have helped some people and will do it again if need to. I have held a person at gun point a couple of times. No body was hurt so bad that they might die before help arrived but at each time a lot of people drove on by and never stopped to help even whe my car blocked one land of the two lane road. I stoped to help a state trouper that was fighting for her life. I subdued the man that was attacking her and followed her to the Jail. I was usually unarmed but in some of the cases I was carrying it illegally.Now that I have a CCW I carry it for my protection and the safety of others.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I know where this going to end. There's an article elsewhere that talks about how a nuclear Middle East is going to be a disaster. We've lost a lot of our self-determination. Younger generations have become insensitive to violence. While I don't think it's a conspiracy, it along with terrorist actions have allowed the government to grow and become more intrusive. Add the historical exploitation of cheap labor, the internet and the stage is set for the decline of American unfluence and uniform prosperity.

The murder in London should be deeply troubling when considered along with the recent Muslim riots in Sweden. Unfortunately we have an incompetent administration at a critical time in history that has made the situation much worse. I have no doubt an American city or cities will be nuked. It's only a matter of time. Following that the changes in this country, for our safety, will make the constitutional violations of the Patriot Act look mild.

Ben Franklin nailed it when he wrote, "*Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Our government is kicking the can down the road. 
*


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

You must remember that his happened in England - where it is illegal to carry guns or other items like knives that can be used as weapons. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/advice/factfile_az/knives_guns_weapons

We cannot take things out of context and need to heed the lesson this speaks to of our freedom to carry guns.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

what i thought was interesting is that they stood around and took video , you would at least think they would have run for shelter knowing that the police were 20 minutes away.

either they have accepted that they are dead if anyone wants them that way or they have lost every ounce of instinct to protect themselves or the people they care about


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Wolf mom said:


> You must remember that his happened in England - where it is illegal to carry guns or other items like knives that can be used as weapons.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/advice/factfile_az/knives_guns_weapons
> 
> We cannot take things out of context and need to heed the lesson this speaks to of our freedom to carry guns.



Well you are right, to a degree.
The English not all but most have this to me Unnatural unquestioning of the Law.
Its even present here, we where after all a English colony and only a small percentage of the citizens stood to fight tyranny. a very small percent.
Many where not English but Scott/Irish that abhorred the crown and its injustices.
Just because something is the Law does not mean it should not be questioned nor
does it mean its improper to practice civil disobedience in the case of a Bad Laws or misuse of the Law.

Now though lets pick the meat of the bones, to stand by well some one is in a life treating situation is just as evil as the act committed here...
And at least cowardly!
This also rises the issue of situational awareness, as well as preparedness.
Being prepared does not mean you always have a bag of goodies, does it?
Being prepared starts with your mental facility, able to act,react, and perform necessary and potentially life saving actions. 
this is why your situational awareness is key.
It advances the mental preparedness.

These people where in shock, therefore not mentally prepared.
other most likely in their own world and no situational awareness hence not mentally prepaired.

Sure the guy was armed but one person who was not a sheep but a leader and with there faculties about them could of changed the out come.
Guns may be illegal their, but I'm sure I could of found a few dozen improvised weapons close by. Sticks and stones served our ancestors well in the past.
As far as as the leader aspect you need to remember sheep need a Shepard.
Just by yelling suggestions well acting others would of followed into the fray its called mob mentality, and its usually performed by the mindless and from pure emotion.

OK enough ramble from me , I hope I conveyed what I was trying, having a hard time putting my thoughts together this morning. 

I hope you all have a great day, its raining here...


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Wind in Her Hair said:


> I think its instinctive for *MOST* people _to run away from a melee_
> 
> a* few* are compelled to run *INTO* the fray
> 
> ...


I agree to some extent, and that extent is that incident. The people acted as if they were watching play acting and didn't even seem to register horror or being afraid, most looked zombie like in ractions. And I still cannot get that one lady just talking to the fellow dripping with blood and holding the bloody cleaver. I'm not sure it was bravery or just what that was happening there. 

And the fellow sure didn't seem worried about anyone taking him to task or doing anything about him chopping that other fellow up. 

I can tell you, I don't understand. And I hope I'm never in a postition to have to try to understand.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Wind in Her Hair said:


> I think its instinctive for *MOST* people _to run away from a melee_
> 
> a* few* are compelled to run *INTO* the fray
> 
> ...


 Think its more the situation, the Instinct is fight or flight, you will choose one, and some will just freeze and do nothing.
I will agree though that everyone's wired a bit differently, and life experience is also differing, which would effect the overall reaction. 
I have known many that take a poke before the flight part though!
Emotional state can also effect the response, if someone that would normally flee is spoiling for a fight well...
I know there are no absolutes in this world and to try and pin down human or even animal behavior would be a mistake. 
to many variables.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

But that does not seem to have happened out on a sidewalk in front of a bunch of people. 

Doesn't make it any less horrible, but at least less opportunity for someone to help.

It is bad that it happened here (bad that it happens anywhere).


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## larryfoster (May 15, 2009)

I think the same thing would have happened in New York, for example.

In the 1960s, there was a young woman named Kitty Genovese who was being stabbed repeatedly.

Numerous people just watched


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Most people simply don't think in a quick moving crisis, much less explore options. Also, most people are not trained to assert dominance at all, and even those who are could be flummoxed in such a situation.

When the guy was first attacked, he was apparently run down and then set upon, which by itself is confusing. At the time, bystanders might think "drug dealers?," "gang violence?," "retribution?" Bearing in mind that there wasn't a group of trained people in the mix, and that there was more than one perp - with weapons - the chance of a successful sortie was pretty slim. Life isn't like the movies. One person in direct attack would be taken out easily. That means that even if there was a leader, that person would have to recruit one or more others of a similar mindset to mount an effective response. Again, the chances are pretty slim when working with office workers and tourists.

Once the guy was dead, the intent of a mission would change anyway, to one of containment while limiting other casualties. The perps' focus on the one guy saved other lives. The woman who distracted the loose perp did exactly what was needed at that point.

Short of a group of soldiers being present, the thing played out much better than it might have had individuals attacked without a plan. One dead vs. four or five dead or wounded.

About the only things that might have made a difference would be, as mentioned, if there was somebody who was packing... or... if another motorist has committed vehicular homicide against the perps. Without knowing the situation, any motorist who did so would undoubtedly forfeit his freedom for years - especially if the situation were gang or drug related, which was much more likely to a casual observer.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Harry Chickpea said:


> Most people simply don't think in a quick moving crisis, much less explore options. Also, most people are not trained to assert dominance at all, and even those who are could be flummoxed in such a situation.
> 
> When the guy was first attacked, he was apparently run down and then set upon, which by itself is confusing. At the time, bystanders might think "drug dealers?," "gang violence?," "retribution?" Bearing in mind that there wasn't a group of trained people in the mix, and that there was more than one perp - with weapons - the chance of a successful sortie was pretty slim. Life isn't like the movies. One person in direct attack would be taken out easily. That means that even if there was a leader, that person would have to recruit one or more others of a similar mindset to mount an effective response. Again, the chances are pretty slim when working with office workers and tourists.
> 
> ...


Yep that is the way to do things hide and wait until a group of solders happen by. In each case that I was involved in it was just one bad man and the victim was fighting for his life. I guess that I should not have helped but walk on by and forget it and then wring my hands over the dead victim or if nothing else over the bad treatment of the bad man.
Each time I did this I should have been sued for helping but it didn't happen each time I should have though of retribution but it didn't happen It may have been drug dealers but they are no better than me. They might have been in a gang but they are not a better than me..
It is easy to critique what other people have done with your imagination but it is the people that do things not just the police.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I would likely not have helped a person i didn't know being attacked by multiple armed assailants unless i had group of people i knew and we were all carrying. as Harry points out the chances that you just walked in on a guy being taken out for his drug debt would be fairly high , and my chances of ending it without significant injury would be low. now give me a rifle and a bit of distance and i would be all to happy to help remove some scum from the street, however that would land me in a pile of trouble as i can only defend myself from eminent threat of death or great bodily harm , and a concealed firing position 50-100yards away isn't to likely to count 

but i certainly wouldn't hang around to watch , or stand there getting video , i would move to safety and call police 

unless i have a significant upper hand or i know you , sorry

change the circumstances , and i am stopping to help a young child , a cop , or some one who is not likely to be getting hit for a drug debt , or a domestic that both will turn on you. every case needs be judged on it's individual merits as seen at the time , one must weight their own risks


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Old Vet said:


> Yep that is the way to do things hide and wait until a group of solders happen by. In each case that I was involved in it was just one bad man and the victim was fighting for his life. I guess that I should not have helped but walk on by and forget it and then wring my hands over the dead victim or if nothing else over the bad treatment of the bad man.
> Each time I did this I should have been sued for helping but it didn't happen each time I should have though of retribution but it didn't happen It may have been drug dealers but they are no better than me. They might have been in a gang but they are not a better than me.You can make all excuses you want and if you think they are better than back off and let someone with come courage do what is need to defuse the situation.
> It is easy to critique what other people have done with your imagination but it is the people that do things not just the police. In your case I would live in the most populace city that I could find and not have anything blamed on you.


Actually, all of the bluster posts that preceded mine are the ones "critiquing." Silly stuff like "Oohh, boy they were a buncha wimps. I woulda gone in there with stickas and stones and kilt the guys." Sorry, but din't your mama teach you not to bring a knife to a gunfight?

I am not making any excuses for what anyone did or din't do, and I find your misplaced anger somewhat sweet in a way. What _I_ did was to simply expose how difficult a properly mounted response would be - one that would come out better than what happened. Similarly, if Lee hadn't attempted a full on frontal attack because he was frustrated and upset instead of calculating, he might have prevailed at Gettysburg, and would much more likely have come out of battle with fewer casualties.

Courage is only one part of what wins wars. You can't fight and win with dead soldiers, and you sure as heck aren't gaining anything with dead personal assistants and tourists doing an imitation of the peasant's revolt.You OTOH, have what appears to be a combination of bravery and common sense. You state that you were secretly carrying, and that gave an edge where you could be reasonably sure of the outcome of the fracas you became involved in. I would most certainly choose you as a leader in battle over those who would simply bluster like so much cannon fodder.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Wind in Her Hair said:


> I suppose what I really intended to convey was that there seems to be a shift in the intended victim - that Christians (in the New Jersey case) and whites (in the London murder) are being "profiled" by radical Muslim predators - and this is only the beginning.
> 
> If they can't take out American citizens or British citizens with airplanes and bombs, they'll use whatever means necessary or convenient.
> 
> be vigilent.


The 4 stages of Islamic conquest, Please, Everyone scan this list. 
http://patdollard.com/2013/05/americans-must-read-4-stages-of-islamic-conquest/


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

I did not mean to call Harry Chickpea a coward I was talking about the story that he told. Nothing I said was about any one in particular.


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Once I'd recovered from the sheer shock of the situation, I suspect I'd have run. However, I've been accused of being naively unobservant so I might not have realized what was happening/had happened; I might have just kept walking but I wouldn't have taken pictures.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Wind in Her Hair said:


> and I didn't see anything I would consider a "bluster post", FWIW.


 
You know, I didn't see those "blustering posts" either. HC must be reading through different eyes.


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

I guess I'm not enough of a sheep or coward. I would ten times rather risk being injured to try to help someone being killed than live with the certain knowledge that I walked away because I was scared to stand up to evil. I've stood up to attackers in the past, helping victims or attempting to. I have no doubt I'll do so again.

How would you feel if you walked off because you might get hurt or killed and because it might just be someone getting murdered because they owe money to a drug dealer, only to find out it was a close friend, family or even just a friend of a close friend? If you just shrug it off then, you're getting very close to a sheep mentality. "That wolf isn't eating ME, so I'll leave and hope to stay safe."

Remember that famous quote.. "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." (and yeah, I know I didn't get it exactly right but my browser sucks right now and I couldn't look it up).

People are sheep, sheepdogs or wolves.

As far as "A muslim beheaded two christians", I wouldn't count that towards some agenda. He's a murderer. There's 100 times as many "Christian" murderers who have beheaded random other Christian victims in the US. Serial killers do these things. We don't call a Christian a terrorist for killing black people victims, nor if a male kills female victims. Since he wasn't doing so publicly to cause terror, I don't see any way to call it a terrorist type attack. It's a murderer. Possibly a serial murderer(I wouldn't doubt they'll find more victims).


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

AngieM2 said:


> You know, I didn't see those "blustering posts" either. HC must be reading through different eyes.


I do read with different eyes. I am not afraid to buck the consensus and never have been, but fair enough. I had taken a look at the link and the comments there, and was moving quickly, seeing a central theme. Most of what I saw as bluster came from without the group. However, these are quotes from previous messages in the thread here:

why this behavior should never ever be allowed to become the new "norm" here in America... 

The post was, as I interpret it, concern or anger at the seeming passivity of the spectators. A person can be concerned without being angry or second guessing.

I can not believe that only 1 person stood up to these terrorist

The implication here is that this poster WOULD stand up to the terrorist. Either that, or this person also wouldn't be able to believe that she stood by as well. I suspect bluster.

I watched that on the news and could not believe a group did not get together to pull him off and beat the snot out of him.

Here we have a call for group violence, where apparently you would join in such a group if someone else instigated a move. Again, this is second guessing and wishful thinking. (Sorry Angie, but as Streisand said while playing Fanny Bryce, "So nobody argues vith der landlord?  )

"What the h*** is wrong with those people??? Why are they just walking by like nothing is happening? Their taking pictures so they can sell them to the Enquirer??? Why aren't they trying to do something!" 

Now we have direct anger - not at the perps, but at the people in the area. That is frustration and displacement without much consideration. If one of the people had a heart condition or was in a wheelchair, would they be excused by this poster? Would the poster jump in singlehanded? I strongly suspect bluster, which came out of frustration.

Are we all to become passive by-stander's in life? So numb or afraid or dis-interested that we don't care or don't want to see, or help, someone being murdered right before our eyes? Are we already the "walking dead," or are we becoming like the zebras running in a herd, just hoping we aren't the one to get singled out, instead of joining together, to overthrow our enemy? I believe we still have enough good people with enough guts to stand up to blatant evil, in this country. 

The phrasing here is much cleaner in that it expresses the frustration and asks pointed questions - not about the people in the incident - but about how WE might react. It expresses much of what was said previously, but in a manner that doesn't put down people who didn't know what to do, while asking us what we can do to do better.

Using a variation of a favorite story - Three brothers are in a kitchen. One puts his hand on a stove burner and is burned. One of the other brothers might laugh and say "You fool. You really are stupid." That isn't helpful, and creates anger between brothers with eventual retribution. The other brother would note the burner and the burn and think "We really don't want to get burned like this. Is there something we can do to prevent it, like learning to notice if the knob is turned." He might also tend to the burned brother, but that is beside the point.

The spectators saw an event. We can call them fools and really stupid, or try to figure out how to recognize such situations and act appropriately. That is... prepping.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

My comment does not relate totally to the horriffic attack and murder in England, but I'll state it anyways. One thing that I think some people are missing is how does one really know in a street fight - that may end up in a killing - which party is the "good guy" and which one is the "bad guy?" Many times it's not so obvious. It may be a grave mistake to take the side of and defend the person having the carp kicked out of him. Either be very sure that you are defending the innocent party or stay out of it. Otherwise, you might find yourself coming to the aid of the perpetrator. Of course, if there appears to be a way of coming between the two parties and stopping the fight all together, do it.

Don't have to tell some of you that there have been several instances where a plain clothes cop had a perp down on the ground when someone attacked the cop because he taught the cop was the bad guy.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I thinkl the difference it that most good guys would not be stabbing the life out of someone and cutting off their head with a meat cleaver.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

AngieM2 said:


> I thinkl the difference it that most good guys would not be stabbing the life out of someone and cutting off their head with a meat cleaver.


If I was attacked by a bad guy or two, and all I had was a knife or meat cleaver to defend myself, I would certainly use it and I'm sure it might look like I was hacking someone to death.

BTW, if you read the first sentence of my post, I said that my comment didn't relate totally to the situation in England.


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

Hey I live in the deep South, if two guys are having a fist fight, I'm not jumping into it. But when two guys run one guy down with a car, then begin hacking him to death with cleavers, that's kind of obvious.

There's obviously a difference between a fight and a murder, and obviously no one thinks a granny on a walker should try to physically intervene.

But standing by watching, taking pictures on a cell phone while a brutal and obvious murder is taking place is evil/passive form.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Cabin Fever said:


> My comment does not relate totally to the horriffic attack and murder in England, but I'll state it anyways. One thing that I think some people are missing is how does one really know in a street fight - that may end up in a killing - which party is the "good guy" and which one is the "bad guy?" Many times it's not so obvious. It may be a grave mistake to take the side of and defend the person having the carp kicked out of him. Either be very sure that you are defending the innocent party or stay out of it. Otherwise, you might find yourself coming to the aid of the perpetrator. Of course, if there appears to be a way of coming between the two parties and stopping the fight all together, do it.
> 
> Don't have to tell some of you that there have been several instances where a plain clothes cop had a perp down on the ground when someone attacked the cop because he taught the cop was the bad guy.


You can't unless one is a uniformed cop. In many cases I had to hold both suspects until help arrived. Then you can find out which party is in the right and sometimes neither of them are in the right. Any fight at all is illegal.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Wolfy-hound said:


> There's obviously a difference between a fight and a murder....


 Yes, there is. But unless one has a crystal ball, one usually cannot tell in advance when a fight will result in a murder.


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Cabin Fever said:


> Yes, there is. But unless one has a crystal ball, one usually cannot tell in advance when a fight will result in a murder.


Or what they would do in a situation.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Things HAVE changed if a person atomaticaly gets their phone out and starts takeing pictures. I think it's good to exercises ones mind to things that might happen and what we are willing/are/are not going to do. I've been on both sides. Have run in to help in cituations and once stood watching in shock as people moved/stood up a person in a motorcycle accident( I would never do this).


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

7thswan said:


> Things HAVE changed if a person atomaticaly gets their phone out and starts takeing pictures. I think it's good to exercises ones mind to things that might happen and what we are willing/are/are not going to do. I've been on both sides. Have run in to help in cituations and once stood watching in shock as people moved/stood up a person in a motorcycle accident( I would never do this).


You have to be careful as to what help you offer. I can see instances that I might stand a persion up after a vehicle accident if something is on fire and I could not drag him to safety.


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## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

Wolf mom said:


> You must remember that his happened in England - where it is illegal to carry guns or other items like knives that can be used as weapons.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/advice/factfile_az/knives_guns_weapons
> 
> We cannot take things out of context and need to heed the lesson this speaks to of our freedom to carry guns.


Wolf Mom,
No offense meant if I am not understanding your point, but did you click the link and listen? My point I was attempting to make was that England has a weapon ban and thus there was no one able to stop the bad who did have a gun. Plus there was no mentality present to even attempt to stop the brutal murder by a mob storming the bad guys nor was there any attempt to stop people from going near the bad guys... There was apathy. Yes I agree with you that the lesson in all this is that here in America we'd have the ability to stand up to the murdering thugs with equal power to stop their actions...of which no one even atempted in this UK event...save for the woman who stepped off a bus thinking it was a vehicle accident scene and then turned to the murderers and asked what they wanted. The crowd didn't move to defend at all- nor run away from a horrific murder! She was the only soul brave enough to confront the evil in their midst. The rest stood around. Oh man! This angers me all over again! RAWWWR. I share with you the thoughts that we need to heed to lesson taken and stand for our 2nd Amendment RIGHTS... We don't need a vote on our RIGHTS. Keep it that way, else we become bystanders with phones to record the event. As I understand it there have been a handful of people now arrested who are connected with the murder.


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## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

Cabin Fever said:


> My comment does not relate totally to the horriffic attack and murder in England, but I'll state it anyways. One thing that I think some people are missing is how does one really know in a street fight - that may end up in a killing - which party is the "good guy" and which one is the "bad guy?" Many times it's not so obvious. It may be a grave mistake to take the side of and defend the person having the carp kicked out of him. Either be very sure that you are defending the innocent party or stay out of it. Otherwise, you might find yourself coming to the aid of the perpetrator. Of course, if there appears to be a way of coming between the two parties and stopping the fight all together, do it.
> 
> Don't have to tell some of you that there have been several instances where a plain clothes cop had a perp down on the ground when someone attacked the cop because he taught the cop was the bad guy.


Hmmm, luckily (forgive the sarcasm) the bad guys announced they were the bad guys ...by yelling "Allahu Akbar!" Pretty defining.

I suppose I reacted and wrote the OP out of sheer anger at the situation rather than consideration of how an untrained for combat crowd reacts. Further frustrated at the lack of concern nor even a fight or flight instinct amongst the crowd. 

scrt


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## RebelDigger (Aug 5, 2010)

Cabin Fever said:


> My comment does not relate totally to the horriffic attack and murder in England, but I'll state it anyways. One thing that I think some people are missing is how does one really know in a street fight - that may end up in a killing - which party is the "good guy" and which one is the "bad guy?" Many times it's not so obvious. It may be a grave mistake to take the side of and defend the person having the carp kicked out of him. Either be very sure that you are defending the innocent party or stay out of it. Otherwise, you might find yourself coming to the aid of the perpetrator. Of course, if there appears to be a way of coming between the two parties and stopping the fight all together, do it.
> 
> Don't have to tell some of you that there have been several instances where a plain clothes cop had a perp down on the ground when someone attacked the cop because he taught the cop was the bad guy.


The Voice of reason. One thing I would like to point out though, it is easy enough to realize that cops don't generally go around hacking perps to pieces with meat cleavers so, if anyone were inclined to help that would be a pretty good clue that they were assisting the right person.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

ONe thing about the phones being used to record, it identifies the attackers and what happened as in evidence.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Harry Chickpea said:


> Actually, all of the bluster posts that preceded mine are the ones "critiquing." Silly stuff like "Oohh, boy they were a buncha wimps. I woulda gone in there with stickas and stones and kilt the guys." Sorry, but din't your mama teach you not to bring a knife to a gunfight?
> 
> I am not making any excuses for what anyone did or din't do, and I find your misplaced anger somewhat sweet in a way. What _I_ did was to simply expose how difficult a properly mounted response would be - one that would come out better than what happened. Similarly, if Lee hadn't attempted a full on frontal attack because he was frustrated and upset instead of calculating, he might have prevailed at Gettysburg, and would much more likely have come out of battle with fewer casualties.
> 
> Courage is only one part of what wins wars. You can't fight and win with dead soldiers, and you sure as heck aren't gaining anything with dead personal assistants and tourists doing an imitation of the peasant's revolt.You OTOH, have what appears to be a combination of bravery and common sense. You state that you were secretly carrying, and that gave an edge where you could be reasonably sure of the outcome of the fracas you became involved in. I would most certainly choose you as a leader in battle over those who would simply bluster like so much cannon fodder.


ya what ever...


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

secretcreek said:


> Hmmm, luckily (forgive the sarcasm) the bad guys announced they were the bad guys ...by yelling "Allahu Akbar!" Pretty defining....





RebelDigger said:


> The Voice of reason. One thing I would like to point out though, it is easy enough to realize that cops don't generally go around hacking perps to pieces with meat cleavers so, if anyone were inclined to help that would be a pretty good clue that they were assisting the right person.


And, if anyone read the first sentence of my post, they would know that the post was not in respect to the brutal murder in England. In that situation, it was a no brainer who the bad guy was...duh! The sentiments in my post were more general in nature and not directed at the killing in England.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

Perhaps the people with the phones were trying to do what little they could - get definitive evidence so that the perpetrators could be brought to justice and fully convicted of their crimes. As I have previously mentioned, my daughter and I take a very intense martial arts/self defense class. We have learned a lot about how "normal" people react in dangerous situations, and how they should react. 

In a situation like this one, common sense dictates that a group of untrained, unarmed individuals should stay out of the way when facing multiple murderers armed with guns and knives/meat cleavers, to avoid an even higher body count. The average person does not have the skills or the fortitude to intervene successfully in a situation like this. If there had been no weapons, or small, more easily defensible ones involved, then I would have hoped others would have definitely stepped in.

A person with some training, however, is a different story. I would certainly expect that they would utilize their training and do whatever they could to prevent a murder. Keeping in mind the stupidity of wading into a gun fight with a rock or tree limb. But I would expect someone with some training to know how to size up the situation and use good sense in determining the best way to intervene - without getting themselves killed in the process.

Regarding the "sheepdog" mentality, I struggled with where my position was on all that not long after we started training. I would give up my life in an instant to protect my loved ones. However, I have been trained to be extremely cautious about entering into a situation like the one in England. Because, basically, by doing so, I would give the attackers the possibility of rendering my child motherless and my husband a widower. So I'm not going to enter in lightly, fueled by too many Hollywood movies and anyone else's sense of honor or justice. I don't care if people want to call me a coward, it is more important for me to continue to be there for my family.

I would certainly do everything I could, if I could do so with a reasonable degree of safety - good cover, more firepower (obviously out in the England situation), higher ground, etc. But I will not risk my family's future in a situation where I don't know the players nor do I have any reasonable chance of a positive outcome. Flesh, no matter how well intentioned, does not stop bullets or blades.

I agree that here in the US, we could intervene if we were properly armed. However, unless the typical concealed carry class changes quite a bit, those I have seen are not strong on street fighting tactics and defensive maneuvers involving a crowd. Many of the people I know are great hunters, wonderful target shooters, or got their permits for political/philosophical reasons - in other words, have no training in how to deal with a situation like the one in England, and the fact that they are carrying a gun wouldn't be all that helpful. It would be more likely to get them or others shot. License to carry is one thing, training to use a gun in an urban attack situation is a whole other thing.

Regarding the desensitization to stand idly by, perhaps only documenting, while all he** is breaking loose on someone is troublesome. The bystanders should have been a whole lot quicker to seek decent shelter for themselves. Standing out there frozen, fully exposed to the field of potential fire is not a smart survival tactic.

I blame exposure to the media as much as anything. If you have personally witnessed hundreds if not thousands of murders on tv, in movies, in video games, your brain has trouble generating the proper amount of response when it happens in front of you in real life. People have become sheeple as much due to their own choices as any kind of government plot to make them so. Many chose to live in a culture of fake violence, not realizing what that does to their ability to recognize and react properly to the real thing.

Not long ago, I was in a situation where I witnessed a father punch his young teen son and throw him to the ground. I was within milliseconds of intervening. To stop that terrible man from abusing his boy. However, before I could close the distance, the father dropped onto the son and held him to the ground, no longer harming him. I later learned that the boy was a diagnosed schizophrenic and had been trying to murder his mother. The father pulled him off the mother, dragged him to the street, punched him when he tried to go back in and finish off the mother, and did what he had to in order to keep the boy immobile until he could be humanely restrained. We later discovered the boy had a nasty knife in his pocket. If I had jumped the gun, things could have taken a decidedly worse turn. Intervention is not always the right choice and it can be extremely hard to judge when to do it. This is a complicated issue, not one where a knee-jerk, "Oh, those terrible bystanders!" will suffice.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

That is good reasoning, throughout, ovs.

Incidentally, for you unsuspecting folks, I have seen ovs draw back to deliver a killing blow when merely confronted with a quirky sense of humor !


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

Oh, please, that wasn't a killing blow, that was only a love tap!

Seriously, we really like our martial arts class. As we have increased in training, we now spend much of our class time in the situation room, where we are learning more "real life" application. The whole self defense thing is fascinating to learn about.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

ovsfarm - thank you for that post. It was a good presentation without being condesending to anyone. I appreciate that very much.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Cabin Fever said:


> My comment does not relate totally to the horriffic attack and murder in England, but I'll state it anyways. One thing that I think some people are missing is how does one really know in a street fight - that may end up in a killing - which party is the "good guy" and which one is the "bad guy?" Many times it's not so obvious. It may be a grave mistake to take the side of and defend the person having the carp kicked out of him. Either be very sure that you are defending the innocent party or stay out of it. Otherwise, you might find yourself coming to the aid of the perpetrator. Of course, if there appears to be a way of coming between the two parties and stopping the fight all together, do it.
> 
> Don't have to tell some of you that there have been several instances where a plain clothes cop had a perp down on the ground when someone attacked the cop because he taught the cop was the bad guy.



WIHH pointed out Sheep Dog VS Sheep and yours and harry's posts point out that it is hard to know who is the victim and who is the perp , and what those people did to end up where they are. 

The sheep dogs , tends his/her flock , and doesn't jump into every fight just because they know how. 

tending your flock may well mean moving them away from the fight , rather than leaving them near danger to jump into it 

you have to be sure about these things , introducing you or you and your gun or any other tool into a fight , you have to be sure enough that you could pull the trigger at the start of your entering the fight accurately picking the good from the bad 

if you can't do that , you should stay out of the fight , call police , be a good witness .


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## backwoods (Sep 12, 2004)

I don't think it would take much discernment to figure out that the guy hacking the head off the other guy, is not the "good guy." It takes a "special" kinda sadist to do that.

And yes, if nothing else at all, the people milling by could've/should've RUN AWAY, not stand around taking vid's and providing an audience for the murderers.

As to "bluster?" Tell that to the woman who risked her life, who said she was trying to calm them down, so they didn't harm a child or someone else. Yes, she was unarmed, and it was a dumb thing to do from a "tactical" stand point, but imo, the lady had guts. She had him distracted, and was trying to de-escalate the situation, even at the risk of her own life. She DID SOMETHING!!!


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

Keep in mind that while a person with a meat cleaver is obviously not a good guy, in a situation like that you have no idea whether or not there IS a "good guy" in a fight. It could have been a drug deal gone bad or someone exacting rough justice against the person who raped and murdered his wife or child. Not legal, but not something I'd want to get caught up in either.

Twenty twenty hindsight affords us the opportunity to nit pick and second guess the England situation to pieces. The ideal thing would be to have a cc permit, put everybody down on the ground and hold them there until LE arrived. How many here have actual training in how to do that safely?

(Interesting aside, we were taught that the best way to position someone on the ground when awaiting reinforcements is to have them face down, arms straight out to the sides with the thumbs pointing down toward the feet and with the legs crossed. This way, you don't have to get close enough to them that they could take you out, and they will have to tip you off by moving something obvious, somewhere, in order to cause any more trouble. Lots of macho folks want to get in there and tie them up or put a boot on their neck, but the police logs illustrate that all that does is get you in close enough for them to take you down and then you are in a world of hurt in a ground fight.)


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

thanks for that positioning information. It makes good sense, and you stay out of reach.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

backwoods said:


> I don't think it would take much discernment to figure out that the guy hacking the head off the other guy, is not the "good guy." It takes a "special" kinda sadist to do that.
> 
> And yes, if nothing else at all, the people milling by could've/should've RUN AWAY, not stand around taking vid's and providing an audience for the murderers.
> 
> As to "bluster?" Tell that to the woman who risked her life, who said she was trying to calm them down, so they didn't harm a child or someone else. Yes, she was unarmed, and it was a dumb thing to do from a "tactical" stand point, but imo, the lady had guts. She had him distracted, and was trying to de-escalate the situation, even at the risk of her own life. She DID SOMETHING!!!



ya what ever...:whistlin:

Not to be condescending, but you might want to re-read and understand how I was using that word - or not. Makes no difference to me. OVS made a good post which covers much of the same territory.

Just as a comment to: "the guy hacking the head off the other guy, is not the "good guy." It takes a "special" kinda sadist to do that."

Don't be too sure. There is a tradition in England... http://www.lawrenceperson.com/?p=2492 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Cromwell's_head

Lest you say "That was England, and it didn't happen in the U.S." 
http://askan8v.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/cultural-genocide-beheading-and-scalping-natives/
http://www.blackhawkproductions.com/

The parents and grandparents of some people alive in the U.S. today were likely involved. Remember that the instigators were leaders in our own western culture - people like kings and religious leaders. There are plenty of bloody hands to go around.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

wise words, OSVFARM , because even a person in cuffs can cause problems , the one time i was pulling over to help is was a female officer who had a suspect in cuffs and he turned on her and knocked her off balance and was trying to get her down , she got her balance kneed him in the groin kicked him in the back if the knee and put a knee in his back by the time i was pulled over , i could see more blue lights coming so i stayed stopped on the side of the road for a minute till they got there and left.

but I could easily identify the cop in uniform with a radio car as good , and the guy in cuffs as not , far to often that distinction is not available , and even more often there is no good guy just two evils.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> I watched that on the news and could not believe a group did not get together to pull him off and beat the snot out of him.
> 
> I hope in America someone would have shot him before he could do more than just barely get started.


Not if he picked the 'left' city or state. This could have easily happened in NYC or LA


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

ovsfarm said:


> Perhaps the people with the phones were trying to do what little they could - get definitive evidence so that the perpetrators could be brought to justice and fully convicted of their crimes. Regarding the desensitization to stand idly by, perhaps only documenting, while all he** is breaking loose on someone is troublesome. *The bystanders should have been a whole lot quicker to seek decent shelter for themselves.* Standing out there frozen, fully exposed to the field of potential fire is not a smart survival tactic.
> 
> *I blame exposure to the media as much as anything. If you have personally witnessed hundreds if not thousands of murders on tv, in movies, in video games, your brain has trouble generating the proper amount of response when it happens in front of you in real life. People have become sheeple as much due to their own choices as any kind of government plot to make them so. Many chose to live in a culture of fake violence, not realizing what that does to their ability to recognize and react properly to the real thing.*


Thank you for your excellent post. I totally agree with what you said in the quote above. I'd like to add one more comment here about the reactions of bystanders witnessing such horrific events. 

In 2008 a young man (Tim McLean) sleeping on a Greyhound bus was suddenly attacked, stabbed repeatedly to death and then shortly afterwards was decapitated and partially cannibalized by a schizophrenic who thought McLean was an alien from space.

What did the other horrified passengers on the bus do about it? None of them were armed. According to later interviews and testimony of some of the passengers they had wanted to do something to stop the carnage but were betrayed by their own bodies and their state of shock. Most of them vomited uncontrollably due to the shock of hearing McLean's one blood curdling scream and seeing him killed so brutally and suddenly, and then they all scrambled to exit the bus to save their own lives. They exited the bus before they witnessed McLean being beheaded. After they got off the bus and witnessed the beheading they still couldn't stop vomiting and were further rendered helpless and immobilized because of their retching and vomiting, their state of shock and their crying was beyond their control.

I think that other people who are distant from these events, having not been there and witnessed it, when questioning why so many witnesses didn't "do something" they need to take into account the witnesses own state of shock and their shock triggered physical helplessness due to bodily reactions such as retching and vomiting.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

watcher said:


> Not if he picked the 'left' city or state. This could have easily happened in NYC or LA


In America people are not afraid to take on a bad guy. It happens every day. In England they wait for the cops. 
What would you do if you walked in to parking lot and found a man attaching a women? In most cases every man would help stop the fight. But not in England they would take out their phone and record it for the cop or for some magazine.It happened on Alaska airlines flight when a person tried to open the door while in flight.


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## backwoods (Sep 12, 2004)

In the words of Todd Beamer, "LET'S ROLL." YES, this is what I was talking about!!!


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## groundhogII (Nov 6, 2008)

That video was my first experience w/Glenn Beck.I don't think comparing the non-action of the London bystanders to the actions on flight 93 was a fair comparison. The passengers on flight 93 had good intel and the time to make rational decisions.They knew that if they didn't act then they would all certainly die,along with countless people on the ground.Trying to take the plane back was their only option.
Regarding the London situation,who are we to question the actions of the bystanders.No one else was harmed and the BG's were arrested.What would have happened had someone tried to be a hero? The body count and wounded would certainly have been higher.What would have been gained by doing something stupid?
What if by a miracle the bystanders were able to kill the BG's.How would the media have spun that? It's easy for us here to be armchair heros, but again,we weren't there.

I will agree that we could expect this kind of crap in this country if we ever relinquish our 2nd amendment rights.


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## backwoods (Sep 12, 2004)

"I don't think comparing the non-action of the London bystanders to the actions on flight 93 was a fair comparison." ...you are right, there were "TRUE MEN" on flight 93.

"How would the media have spun that?" Seriously? If moral decisions regarding helping a stranger, are now made on a basis of how the media will spin it, we're beyond help already, and rightfully so.

"They knew that if they didn't act..." this is exactly it. IF they didn't act, they had a reasonable expectation of dying anyway. BECAUSE they acted, that plane didn't crash into DC, killing WAY more people, possibly wiping out the White House or Capitol.

I'm not "picking on" the sheeple in London. By disarming them, they are simply what their govt created, sheeple. And that's what people here will become, if they are disarmed and continue to be told that this govt is going to take care of them. Because remember, when SECONDS count, the police are only MINUTES away. Yes, I was outraged at their inaction. Yes, it was an eye-opener for me, at least, how the masses can become so complacent as to not even run FROM such an event. Shock would be a factor, but still hard to believe they'd just stroll on by. Yes, I'm Scots-Irish.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Old Vet said:


> In America people are not afraid to take on a bad guy. It happens every day. In England they wait for the cops.
> What would you do if you walked in to parking lot and found a man attaching a women? In most cases every man would help stop the fight. But not in England they would take out their phone and record it for the cop or for some magazine.It happened on Alaska airlines flight when a person tried to open the door while in flight.


And one thing I have taught a lot of people: There is only one weapon, your brain. Everything else is just a tool.

There had to be a trashcan, a briefcase or a laptop bag which could have been used. A belt or string can be used as garrote. If nothing else you can grab someone from behind, put one arm under his neck and the other behind his head and fall down.


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## irondale (Oct 3, 2012)

The 1st rule in situations like this is: Do not create another victim. You are not going to do anyone any good by getting stabbed/shot or killed yourself.

You contain the threat best you can and wait until you have enough force to stop the threat. In this case 2 guys with knives is going to be too much for 1 person to handle without a weapon of some sort. I think people watch too many movies were the good guy takes on a 100 bad guys and comes out without a scratch.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

look I'm more or less been raised in Flint MI...
I've also been stoned , ya ok both ways... yes with actual stones!
Wrong color in the wrong place at the wrong time!
you would be amazed at the deterring effect a half dozen folks hap haphazard throwing rocks can be! not even large rocks! less then a couple ounces! 
Suppose they had played base ball and been real serious!

but the whole thing I was trying to raise is there is always a weapon handy!
I guess most folks never had need to look about... 

Its complete speculation both ways as to a higher body count with untrained people entering the fray! or if they could of interceded and prevented this murder!

I say they could of other wise the gal putting the one on the spot would of got hacked!

these guys had a agenda no doubt, but it was not risking themselves, they ran the guy over first?????? now add in the age... of coarse it was not known at the time. but had they been charged by a crowd, again their actions demonstrate they wanted to avoid harm to themselves, well orchestrating their what ever you want to call it!

yes this could of been different! 
higher body count I doubt it!
had the gun been of issue. well they would of shot the guy rather then run him over.....|


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

guess how many times I changed a outcome?

well more then I care to count...

again these guys where cowards and so wasn't that crowd!


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

1 last thing and I'm done with this, if you are alive and life has not trained you to survive well I suppose you don't deserve to live if you need trained individuals to procure that life you have. 
Thats what I do for my livestock just so I can eat them...
You can depend on that I will depend on me. 
Far over rated on trained professionals.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I would truly not want to have to witness that, especially if I were in my vehicle.

Bullets are very costly now, and almost impossible to obtain replacements. And, front end alignments are pretty costly too...


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

Wind in Her Hair said:


> I think its instinctive for *MOST* people _to run away from a melee_
> 
> a* few* are compelled to run *INTO* the fray
> 
> ...


In all fairness (and I am not saying that this IS what happened, just what MIGHT have been going through their heads) - mobile phone footage is evidence. It may be that people who felt they were unable to actually DO anything, felt that obtaining evidence that would lead to these animals being caught was the next best thing?


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

watcher said:


> And one thing I have taught a lot of people: There is only one weapon, your brain. Everything else is just a tool.
> 
> There had to be a trashcan, a briefcase or a laptop bag which could have been used. A belt or string can be used as garrote. If nothing else you can grab someone from behind, put one arm under his neck and the other behind his head and fall down.


But you also have to remember that British has a different culture surrounding weapons of any sort - unless you have been accustomed to weapons, you are taught to fear them. Someone wielding even a knife has immense power over people who are afraid of that knife - a gun even more so - and the witnesses had just witnessed a scene of appalling violence. Not saying that their actions were right - just that I can understand them. I know a lot of people who would run away if there was a loaded gun on the table - people think that weapons kill people - they have yet to learn that it is people who kill people!!!


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Huge problem . . . When you use bullets , a very large number of do-good idiots want to put you in the iron-hotel for life.....
A front end alignment is simply a day of inconvenience and some bucks........

Not much of an issue as to which is less stressful ...........


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

irondale said:


> The 1st rule in situations like this is: Do not create another victim. You are not going to do anyone any good by getting stabbed/shot or killed yourself.
> 
> You contain the threat best you can and wait until you have enough force to stop the threat. In this case 2 guys with knives is going to be too much for 1 person to handle without a weapon of some sort. I think people watch too many movies were the good guy takes on a 100 bad guys and comes out without a scratch.


True but there is also something called the herd mentality. The actions of one person can also cause a crowd to react. If someone had acted there is a good chance others would have followed.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

irondale said:


> The 1st rule in situations like this is: Do not create another victim. You are not going to do anyone any good by getting stabbed/shot or killed yourself.
> 
> You contain the threat best you can and wait until you have enough force to stop the threat. In this case 2 guys with knives is going to be too much for 1 person to handle without a weapon of some sort. I think people watch too many movies were the good guy takes on a 100 bad guys and comes out without a scratch.


True but there is also something called the herd mentality. The actions of one person can also cause a crowd to react. If someone had acted there is a good chance others would have followed.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

hoggie said:


> But you also have to remember that British has a different culture surrounding weapons of any sort - unless you have been accustomed to weapons, you are taught to fear them. Someone wielding even a knife has immense power over people who are afraid of that knife - a gun even more so - and the witnesses had just witnessed a scene of appalling violence. Not saying that their actions were right - just that I can understand them. I know a lot of people who would run away if there was a loaded gun on the table - people think that weapons kill people - they have yet to learn that it is people who kill people!!!


That's true. We tend to view the entire world through our own eyes and experiences. I know the people in my circle would not have hesitated any longer than necessary to access the best way to stop the attack.


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## groundhogII (Nov 6, 2008)

watcher said:


> That's true. We tend to view the entire world through our own eyes and experiences. I know the people in my circle would not have hesitated any longer than necessary to access the best way to stop the attack.


de oppresso liber; meaning to free the oppressed aka Army Special Forces motto
Watcher, I have no doubt that people in your circles would have reacted differently. But these bystanders were ordinary people, not members of the British SAS.They behaved exactly how normal people would have.

Not your words,but some here have referred to these bystanders as cowards.That is just an unfair assessment in this situation.


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## blaundee (Nov 3, 2012)

I am going to copy and paste your OP on my facebook wall, crediting it to "someone" since I don't know your name.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Old Vet said:


> In America people are not afraid to take on a bad guy. It happens every day. In England they wait for the cops.
> What would you do if you walked in to parking lot and found a man attaching a women? In most cases every man would help stop the fight. But not in England they would take out their phone and record it for the cop or for some magazine.It happened on Alaska airlines flight when a person tried to open the door while in flight.


Nice generalization. Good people stand up to bad people all the time there, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't 't mean it doesn't happen, nor the opposite here.


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## arnie (Apr 26, 2012)

things like this happening to innocent humans in a civilized world ? I try to remind myself that you have to watchout for yourself ; police are never going to be there to protect you and a lot of the humans in our world are not civilized . to assume that they are is putting youself in danger .


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Tiempo said:


> Nice generalization. Good people stand up to bad people all the time there, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't 't mean it doesn't happen, nor the opposite here.


I make exception for the Northern states.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

Right here, on this forum, a person who verbally confronted some "street bums" was warned that she was "playing with fire" and might provoke them to additional violence. (here)

We are conditioned to avoid confrontation, if at all possible. However, the criminal element knows that and uses that against us. I would love to see more people stand up for themselves and to see the climate become dangerous for the criminals, not the law abiding. Author Gavin DeBecker talks about how violence comes upon us harder, faster, and more intensely that we ever imagine. I would love to return that favor and react to that attack harder, faster, and more intensely than the criminals ever expected. I would hope that the person who attacked me would not have only "three hots and a cot" as momentos of our encounter. 

Unfortunately, I'm not completely convinced that conceiled carry is the answer. Of the people I know that have permits, only a tiny fraction of them have pursued any real training in using a firearm to protect themselves in an on-the-street situation. Most are great hunters and very good target shooters, but there is a huge difference between that and a street fight.


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