# Aid to Ukraine



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

We first gave almost $14 billion to Ukraine.

The president asked for $33 billion more.

The House voted 368 to 57 to give $40 billion.

The Senate is expected to approve the aid by a large margin.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Ukraine's military budget in 2019 was $5.23 billion

Russia's military budget in 2019 was $70 billion

We will have given Ukraine $54 billion. That is almost the entire Russian military budget for a full year.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I wrote my Congressman about it and got a canned response that had nothing to do with my question. My question was "Since several EU countries are still buying gas from Russia and paying in rubles, what is the point in the US printing money to send to Ukraine"? This is largely a European problem, so why isn't the EU taking the lead with the US in a supporting role?

I also asked what the UN was doing to try to foster a peace agreement.

This is another never let a crisis go to waste moment, and we may never get out of the hole our government is digging.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas has asked to move funding from the Veterans Administration for medical facilities along our southern border.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

HDRider said:


> Ukraine's military budget in 2019 was $5.23 billion
> 
> Russia's military budget in 2019 was $70 billion
> 
> We will have given Ukraine $54 billion. That is almost the entire Russian military budget for a full year.


And when the war is over, who is going to pay for the Ukrainian government salaries and who is going to pay to rebuild Ukraine? And what about government pensions?

The US will soon not exist as a Constitutional Republic, if it even does today.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

MoonRiver said:


> I wrote my Congressman about it and got a canned response that had nothing to do with my question. My question was "Since several EU countries are still buying gas from Russia and paying in rubles, what is the point in the US printing money to send to Ukraine"? This is largely a European problem, so why isn't the EU taking the lead with the US in a supporting role?
> 
> I also asked what the UN was doing to try to foster a peace agreement.
> 
> This is another never let a crisis go to waste moment, and we may never get out of the hole our government is digging.


We were not ever going to get out of the hole anyway. I agree that if Joe was going to give away money he should start with his own country. But I hear Ukraine has been very good for the Biden Family.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

HDRider said:


> Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas has asked to move funding from the Veterans Administration for medical facilities along our southern border.


Might as well let the funding follow the VA doctors. They are going to the border to help the illegals.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

MoonRiver said:


> And when the war is over, who is going to pay for the Ukrainian government salaries and who is going to pay to rebuild Ukraine? And what about government pensions?
> 
> The US will soon not exist as a Constitutional Republic, if it even does today.


The same people who are going to pay for Joe and Hunter's salaries and pensions.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Boris Johnson has said any peace talks over Ukraine are likely to fail as he compared holding talks with Vladimir Putin to negotiating with a crocodile.

The Prime Minister said dealing with the Russian president is like "a crocodile when it's got your leg in its jaws", and said it is vital that the West continues arming Ukraine.









Ukraine morning briefing: Five developments as Boris Johnson warns peace talks with Russia are doomed


Plus: Vladimir Putin hails the 'liberation' of Mariupol and further bodies of civilians discovered showing 'signs of torture'




www.telegraph.co.uk


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

HDRider said:


> Boris Johnson has said any peace talks over Ukraine are likely to fail as he compared holding talks with Vladimir Putin to negotiating with a crocodile.
> 
> The Prime Minister said dealing with the Russian president is like "a crocodile when it's got your leg in its jaws", and said it is vital that the West continues arming Ukraine.
> 
> ...


No one from the West is going to negotiate an end to the war. I believe Putin has had talks with Israel and India.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

I remember Biden bragging on national television about blackmailing a Ukrainian official over US Government aid. Letting the Biden Crime Cartel run the government, is like letting the Mafia run your credit union.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lloyd James Austin III was sworn in as the 28th Secretary of Defense on January 22, 2021. Mr. Austin is the principal assistant to the President in all matters relating to the Department of Defense and serves on the National Security Council. 

Since his retirement from military service, Mr. Austin served on the Boards of Directors for Raytheon Technologies








Lloyd J. Austin III


Lloyd James Austin III was sworn in as the 28th Secretary of Defense on January 22, 2021. Mr. Austin is the principal assistant to the President in all matters relating to the Department of Defense



www.defense.gov





The Pentagon’s top contractors have scaled back their lobbying operations as demand for weapons to Ukraine rises. Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, and General Dynamics spent $16.9 million on lobbying in the first quarter of 2022. All but General Dynamics spent less on lobbying this quarter compared to the same period last year.

According to lobbying disclosures filed last week, Raytheon spent $3.5 million on lobbying last quarter, a decrease of more than $1.8 million compared to the first quarter of 2021. 

Lockheed Martin reduced its lobbying spending to $3.3 million, about $490,000 less than its first-quarter spending last year. 

Boeing also slightly decreased its first-quarter lobbying expenditures to under $2.7 million, $70,000 than the same period last year. 

Northrop Grumman spent the most money on lobbying this quarter, over $4.5 million, but it still reduced its spending by $80,000.








Top Pentagon contractors spend less on lobbying as demand for weapons to Ukraine rises - OpenSecrets News


Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, and General Dynamics spent $16.9 million on lobbying in the first quarter of 2022.




www.opensecrets.org


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Killing orcs isn't cheap. However, you are all right in pointing out this is ludicrous. There are a lot of other things in this funding bill that are nefarious, as well. 

We are ruled by thugs and grifters.


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## Max Overhead (Feb 22, 2021)

While we're at it we should ship all of our diesel fuel to the Ukraine. Baby formula, grain, anything of value. We must stand by Ukraine.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Russia's military budget in 2019 was $70 billion



You get what you pay for...Russia's military performnce in the Ukraine is quite embarassing.

The money we're sending is all fake money anyways. Wee're still payng off WW I debts. We can print money until we run out of ink...I wonder when we'll hit Peak Ink?

The Biden Crime Family's involvement in the Ukraine leaves everything they (we) do there quite suspect....

...and Ike was right, once again.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Is Ukraine the tip of the spear to bring Russia into the WEF fold?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1525098797046669313


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I think at this point, we should aid Russia. If the diaper wearer in chief is picking sides with Ukraine, then that must be the wrong side. Enemy of my enemy thing.

Seriously, the drooling idiot allowed the entire thing to happen. The ball drop in Afghanistan might as well have been a sign to Putin that said "yeah, do whatever you want, because we are run by an Alzheimer's patient". Everything at this point is just handing back some cash to defense contractors/campaign contributors.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Or...








Trump's ICE Chief: GOP 'Shouldn't Be Talking About Ukraine' While Terrorists Exploit U.S. Border


Thomas Homan says Republicans "shouldn't be talking about Ukraine" while terrorists are exploiting the border to enter the nation.




www.breitbart.com


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

Max Overhead said:


> While we're at it we should ship all of our diesel fuel to the Ukraine. Baby formula, grain, anything of value. We must stand by Ukraine.


I think they read your post. Joe (or who ever is in charge) is doing their best.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

At some point and time Russia was / is going to need put in place. We are going to have to spend the money to do so one way to the other. At least this way their are few American lives involved. Keep in mind this same issue will most likely happen with china at some point and time.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

Redlands Okie said:


> At some point and time Russia was / is going to need put in place. We are going to have to spend the money to do so one way to the other. At least this way their are few American lives involved. Keep in mind this same issue will most likely happen with china at some point and time.


You are absolutely correct but... most people have their politics shoved so far up their ummm... bums... that they can't see it. Their _only_ view of the world is out of that same orifice. I call it ARM... anal retentive myopia.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

Maybe we should give some serious thought to one country one land mass.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

barnbilder said:


> I think at this point, we should aid Russia. If the diaper wearer in chief is picking sides with Ukraine, then that must be the wrong side. Enemy of my enemy thing.
> 
> Seriously, the drooling idiot allowed the entire thing to happen. The ball drop in Afghanistan might as well have been a sign to Putin that said "yeah, do whatever you want, because we are run by an Alzheimer's patient". Everything at this point is just handing back some cash to defense contractors/campaign contributors.


I was thinking the same. When the anti-war Party is pushing a war, you know something really bad is about to happen.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Read the thread


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1524913117137870849


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

HDRider said:


> Read the thread
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1524913117137870849


I just learned that it includes paying for the government, salaries, etc.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> I just learned that it includes paying for the government, salaries, etc.


I am convinced that Europe and the US are using Ukraine to fight the war we never wanted to fight. 

The end game is not restoring Ukraine to its pre-invasion state. The end game is to create turmoil inside Russia thinking the next guy that comes along will be nicer than Putin.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

HDRider said:


> I am convinced that Europe and the US are using Ukraine to fight the war we never wanted to fight.
> 
> The end game is not restoring Ukraine to its pre-invasion state. The end game is to create turmoil inside Russia thinking the next guy that comes along will be nicer than Putin.


And those same people are willing to risk the lives of so many people.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

I have so many "emotions" on this. Retired wife with a bizziion years of service. A Nuke. A deceased (child) Army vet. More, me but civilian, but I was involved.

People pop off continuously because they have no 'skin in the game' and talk from the sidelines. It's easy to talk. Its another to do.

Republic. Democracy. Our troops swear to uphold the constitution. Here is the failing. WHICH form of Gov't? Yes, our troops take orders....

Do you know the difference between a pure Democracy and a Democratic Republic? How do you discern the difference? Should you even speak to the issue?

This has a huge amount of difference. No, the majority don't necessarily win. Someone has more information than you. Maybe you vote for the individual who has more information than you because you don't have access or don't have the time. So you vote for the person that best represents your interest. This is Representative Democracy.

They don't collect your emails and texts, necessarily. But you elected them for the job. Let them do that.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

HDRider said:


> I am convinced that Europe and the US are using Ukraine to fight the war we never wanted to fight.
> 
> The end game is not restoring Ukraine to its pre-invasion state. The end game is to create turmoil inside Russia thinking the next guy that comes along will be nicer than Putin.


That's only half of it. The other half is to advance the WEF agenda.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> That's only half of it. The other half is to advance the WEF agenda.


No, THAT is all of it.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

JRHill02 said:


> I have so many "emotions" on this. Retired wife with a bizziion years of service. A Nuke. A deceased (child) Army vet. More, me but civilian, but I was involved.
> 
> People pop off continuously because they have no 'skin in the game' and talk from the sidelines. It's easy to talk. Its another to do.
> 
> ...


I am glad you are satisfied with the way your elected officials serve your best interest.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

HDRider said:


> I am glad you are satisfied with the way your elected officials serve your best interest.


I, for one, am not satisfies with the elected officials we have. I didn't elect them and really do not know anyone who even voted for them. Seems like most of their votes were brought in by the stork.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

What's another billion among friends









Biden announces new $700 million in military aid for Ukraine


U.S. President Joe Biden announced on Wednesday a new $700 million weapons package for Ukraine that will include high mobility artillery rocket systems, which can accurately hit targets as far away as 80 km (50 miles).




www.reuters.com


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## JOAT (10 mo ago)

Just an interesting little numerical coincidence on that $40,000,000,000 of our money they're sending to Ukraine... 

There was a security assessment on public schools performed a few years ago. It came back with a cost of approximately $400,000 per school to install the needed physical and digital security systems that would make these "active shooter" events inside a public school extremely difficult for the bad guys (there's a cost range based on size of the school, but $400,000 was deemed a rough mean). This cost did not include the hiring of armed security (which is highly recommended), but just the costs of installing the needed hardened doors, cameras, alarms, communications, etc. 

There are just under 100,000 schools in the USA. So, the cost to bring every public school up to an appropriate level of physical security is $40,000,000,000. 

In other words, if we have 40 Billion to play with, I can think of a much better place to use it right now.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

The govt keeps claiming there is no money to keep social security and medicare fully funded. Yet they find all kinds of money to send out in terms of foreign aid. It's time our govt starts taking care of people in our country first.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> The govt keeps claiming there is no money to keep social security and medicare fully funded. Yet they find all kinds of money to send out in terms of foreign aid. It's time our govt starts taking care of people in our country first.


In their twisted minds they think they are


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> I am convinced that Europe and the US are using Ukraine to fight the war we never wanted to fight.
> 
> The end game is not restoring Ukraine to its pre-invasion state. The end game is to create turmoil inside Russia thinking the next guy that comes along will be nicer than Putin.


Gosh. After 2 years, I agree with you.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Or we need a distraction away from the current state of affairs. Ukraine was a little lesser in the news after Boston, Texas and the whole gun thing. But Ukraine is the bigger issue and is coming back as we speak. Never let a perfectly good distraction go to waste, ya know.

*BTW, have you seen anything in the news about an effort to restrict ANY gun in the Ukraine from its citizenry?* There's a lot of mass shootings there.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

The *top Ukrainian official *who was fired for spreading misinformation *has admitted that she lied about Russians committing mass rape in order to convince western countries to send more weapons* to Ukraine.





__





Ousted Ukrainian Official Breaks Silence | ZeroHedge


ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




www.zerohedge.com


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> The *top Ukrainian official *who was fired for spreading misinformation *has admitted that she lied about Russians committing mass rape in order to convince western countries to send more weapons* to Ukraine.


So, help me understand this... you think it's some sort of great revelation that a country uses propoganda to garner support do help it defend itself??? Do I have that right???


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

homesteadforty said:


> So, help me understand this... you think it's some sort of great revelation that a country uses propoganda the garner support do help it defend itself??? Do I have that right???


More than one person has posted that Russian soldiers were raping Ukrainian women. I'm just pointing out this was one more example of misinformation.

Were there any rapes? I don't know, but it appears the story of mass rapes was made up.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> More than one person has posted that Russian soldiers were raping Ukrainian women. I'm just pointing out this was one more example of misinformation.
> 
> Were there any rapes? I don't know, but it appears the story of mass rapes was made up.


If you weren't so quick to defend them you might take the time to look up Rusian mass rapes in WW2, Afghanistan, Georgia, Chechnya... and all the indications are there for Ukraine, but as it's still an active war zone, it is not yet absolutely confirmed. Face it, their history is stacked against them.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> More than one person has posted that Russian soldiers were raping Ukrainian women. I'm just pointing out this was one more example of misinformation.
> 
> Were there any rapes? I don't know, but it appears the story of mass rapes was made up.


I have first hand reports from relief operators that treated rape victims (many of them), children kidnapped, civilians tortured and executed, home looted and vandalized.

Your ability to convince yourself of virtually anything is astounding. Russians are orcs and barbarians. Full stop.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Hiro said:


> I have first hand reports from relief operators that treated rape victims (many of them), children kidnapped, civilians tortured and executed, home looted and vandalized.
> 
> Your ability to convince yourself of virtually anything is astounding. Russians are orcs and barbarians. Full stop.


Please provide any documentation you have that proves what I posted is not true. My source is the actual Ukrainian official who lied about it, was kicked out of government for it, and admits to it.

"The *top Ukrainian official *who was fired for spreading misinformation *has admitted that she lied about Russians committing mass rape in order to convince western countries to send more weapons* to Ukraine."​​In an interview published by a Ukrainian news outlet, Denisova admitted that her falsehoods had achieved their intended goal.​​“When, for example, I spoke in the Italian parliament at the Committee on International Affairs, I heard and saw such fatigue from Ukraine, you know? *I talked about terrible things in order to somehow push them to make the decisions that Ukraine and the Ukrainian people need*,” she said.​​







Ukrainian Official Admits She Lied About Russians Committing Mass Rape to Convince Countries to Send More Weapons


And it worked.



summit.news


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

homesteadforty said:


> If you weren't so quick to defend them you might take the time to look up Rusian mass rapes in WW2, Afghanistan, Georgia, Chechnya... and all the indications are there for Ukraine, but as it's still an active war zone, it is not yet absolutely confirmed. Face it, their history is stacked against them.


Again, you makeup stuff I never said and then try to refute it. I did not defend Russia or any actions they have taken. Explaining is not approving.

You might try responding to what I post and not what you think I meant. I am very careful in how I word things and the sources I use.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> Please provide any documentation you have that proves what I posted is not true. My source is the actual Ukrainian official who lied about it, was kicked out of government for it, and admits to it.
> 
> "The *top Ukrainian official *who was fired for spreading misinformation *has admitted that she lied about Russians committing mass rape in order to convince western countries to send more weapons* to Ukraine."​​In an interview published by a Ukrainian news outlet, Denisova admitted that her falsehoods had achieved their intended goal.​​“When, for example, I spoke in the Italian parliament at the Committee on International Affairs, I heard and saw such fatigue from Ukraine, you know? *I talked about terrible things in order to somehow push them to make the decisions that Ukraine and the Ukrainian people need*,” she said.​​
> 
> ...


You don't understand your own logical fallacy. One Ukrainian official lied about mass rapes and was fired does not prove anything other than one Ukrainian official lied and was fired. There is historical records of Russian atrocities in every single conflict they have participated in. 

Once more, I have it from first hand witnesses. Why you have convinced yourself that atrocities are not happening is unfathomable and lacks reasoning.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Hiro said:


> You don't understand your own logical fallacy. One Ukrainian official lied about mass rapes and was fired does not prove anything other than one Ukrainian official lied and was fired. There is historical records of Russian atrocities in every single conflict they have participated in.
> 
> Once more, I have it from first hand witnesses. Why you have convinced yourself that atrocities are not happening is unfathomable and lacks reasoning.


Everything in my OP was a quote from the article, to which I supplied the reference. Not a single word was my own. So a logical fallacy is impossible. I simply quoted an article which you can believe or not. It makes no difference to me.

I have not seen a single post in this thread that said Russians had committed mass rapes that provided a reputable source, yet it has been said multiple times as fact. If you have rreputable sources, please share them.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> More than one person has posted that Russian soldiers were raping Ukrainian women. I'm just pointing out this was one more example of misinformation.
> 
> Were there any rapes? I don't know, *but it appears the story of mass rapes was made up.*



If you had phrased this as "This story of mass rapes was made up." I would agree with your assertion that a logical fallacy is impossible. But, you didn't. You are trying to defend orcs, again.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

homesteadforty said:


> If you weren't so quick to defend them you might take the time to look up Russian mass rapes in WW2, Afghanistan, Georgia, Chechnya... and all the indications are there for Ukraine, but as it's still an active war zone, it is not yet absolutely confirmed. Face it, their history is stacked against them.





MoonRiver said:


> Again, you makeup stuff I never said...


I quoted my post to make it easy... please show me specifically what and where I made up something you didn't say.



> ...and then try to refute it. I did not defend Russia or any actions they have taken. Explaining is not approving.


ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, including the explainations, you have posted, in this and other threads, has been against Ukraine... ergo, by default is defending Russia.



> You might try responding to what I post and not what you think I meant. I am very careful in how I word things and the sources I use.


O.K. maybe you can help me to understand better by a direct answer to a single question... is Russias invasion of Ukraine right... or wrong?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Good guys, bad guys, just cause, Ukraine, Vietnam, some other third world dung heap next week, it's all BS. We are being played, again, and it's working, again. We spend billions every year protecting Saudi Arabia, our greatest ally in the war on terror. Where they behead women in public for refusing to follow laws written in the middle ages by religious fanatics. We give away billions each year in foreign aid, to dictators who line their pockets. We know this, everybody knows this, and we still send them the money. 

The UN brags about using food and aid money as a weapon, against anyone who doesn't agree with their policies, and we pay the lion's share of their budget. The American people are the cash cow, and everybody is milking her. 

How many mental patients could you treat with 40 billion? How many highways could you repair with 40 billion? How many other things that we need, could we pay for with 40 billion? If we are going to print paper money and pretend that it is worth something, at least spend it here.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> Everything in my OP was a quote from the article, to which I supplied the reference. Not a single word was my own. So a logical fallacy is impossible. I simply quoted an article which you can believe or not. It makes no difference to me.


Your subsequent commentary was not from the article... you cannot disassociate the two.



MoonRiver said:


> More than one person has posted that Russian soldiers were raping Ukrainian women. *I'm just pointing out this was one more example of misinformation.*
> 
> Were there any rapes? I don't know, but *it appears the story of mass rapes was made up.*


To post an article, then make comments in a follow up post, in order to claim you only posted the article is disingenuous, to put it politely. To believe that you are somehow fooling us by doing it is... (nevermind).


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

muleskinner2 said:


> Good guys, bad guys, just cause, Ukraine, Vietnam, some other third world dung heap next week, it's all BS. We are being played, again, and it's working, again. We spend billions every year protecting Saudi Arabia... ...Where they behead women... foreign aid, to dictators who line their pockets.
> 
> The UN brags about using food and aid money as a weapon...
> 
> How many mental patients could you treat with 40 billion? How many highways could you repair with 40 billion? How many other things that we need, could we pay for with 40 billion? If we are going to print paper money and pretend that it is worth something, at least spend it here.


Yep, it absolutely sucks... and the alternative is???


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

homesteadforty said:


> O.K. maybe you can help me to understand better by a direct answer to a single question... is Russias invasion of Ukraine right... or wrong?


Anybody else hearing crickets?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

homesteadforty said:


> Yep, it absolutely sucks... and the alternative is???


Simple, stop giving away money. Stop all foreign and, and start maintaining our own country.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

muleskinner2 said:


> Simple, stop giving away money. Stop all foreign and, and start maintaining our own country.


And when China and Russia fill in behind us, which they're already making a concerted effort at in African, South America and elsewhere, what then?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

homesteadforty said:


> And when China and Russia fill in behind us, which they're already making a concerted effort at in African, South America and elsewhere, what then?


They were doing the same thing in Africa forty years ago when I was there. And they will be doing it forty years from now. I have been all over central and southern Africa, it's a dung heap, and always will be. Central and South America is the same way. Let'em have it. We have poured billions into both places, and it hasn't slowed them down for ten minutes.

When the Soviet's were training and supplying the terrorists in Rhodesia, the CIA had agents working in the Rhodesian military, and they were passing operational information directly to the KGB. If anyone complained Jimmy Carter had them replaced. We have enough enemies here at home, we don't need to go looking for them.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

muleskinner2 said:


> Let'em have it. We have poured billions into both places, and it hasn't slowed them down for ten minutes.


It's about resources and territory. If Russia and China were to control the natural resources and strategic territories in Africa and South America, how long do you think it would be before they would come for us.

Don't forget to add in the Middle East... but that's only a pittance of land... with 80% of the worlds proven oil reserves.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

homesteadforty said:


> And when China and Russia fill in behind us, which they're already making a concerted effort at in African, South America and elsewhere, what then?


Consider for a moment that all the areas you mentioned fell within the Russian or Chinese sphere. What harm would that do to the North America, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and Europe and the other like minded countries? I'd love to see Russia and China invest in those places.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

homesteadforty said:


> It's about resources and territory. If Russia and China were to control the natural resources and strategic territories in Africa and South America, how long do you think it would be before they would come for us.
> 
> Don't forget to add in the Middle East... but that's only a pittance of land... with 80% of the worlds proven oil reserves.


I think you grossly overstate the peril. Either way, we better be ready. It is happening as we sit here today. 

We have spent $20 trillion dollars on our military since 1960 and maybe half that much in foreign aid. China is still eating our lunch. Time to rethink all this. Russia is a nonfactor


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

HDRider said:


> I think you grossly overstate the peril. Either way, we better be ready. It is happening as we sit here today.
> 
> We have spent $20 trillion dollars on our military since 1960 and maybe half that much in foreign aid. China is still eating our lunch. Time to rethink all this. Russia is a nonfactor


Your own unelected, fake government is the biggest threat to your life and liberty, not China.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Hiro said:


> Your own unelected, fake government is the biggest threat to your life and liberty, not China.


I believe that.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

muleskinner2 said:


> Simple, stop giving away money. Stop all foreign and, and start maintaining our own country.



I agree that is what should be done. But, since foreign aid is one of the ways politicians, ex-high ranking military and their families get wealthy is kick backs from foreign aid, the Spice will keep flowing.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Hiro said:


> I agree that is what should be done. But, since foreign aid is one of the ways politicians, ex-high ranking military and their families get wealthy is kick backs from foreign aid, the Spice will keep flowing.


Right again


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

HDRider said:


> Consider for a moment that all the areas you mentioned fell within the Russian or Chinese sphere. What harm would that do to the North America, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and Europe and the other like minded countries? I'd love to see Russia and China invest in those places.


Africa: The continent has 40 percent of the world's gold and up to 90 percent of its chromium and platinum. The largest reserves of *cobalt, diamonds, platinum and uranium* in the world are in Africa. It holds 65 per cent of the world's arable land and ten percent of the planet's internal renewable fresh water source.

*South America: Gold, silver, iron, copper, bauxite (aluminum ore), tin, lead, and nickel...* In addition, mines throughout the region produce precious gems, titanium, and tungsten. In fact, South America is among the world's leaders in the mining of raw materials.

That does not mention food commodities like sugar, bananas, cocoa, coffee, tobacco, beef, corn, and wheat, etc. Nor does it include lumber and wood products, oil, or natural gas.

If you then factor in the strategic travel and shipping implications with China and/or Russia in control of the southern Pacific, the Panama Canal, Cape Horn, the south Atlantic, Cape of Good Hope, and the Indian Ocean, we'd (and any allies we had left) would have serious problems.

At that point Japan would have been swallowed by China and at best Australia would be isolated. If Putin has his way in east Europe there won't be an effect EU to do much of anything.

And in the meantime... here we sit.

Think strategic, big picture... cause you can bet your sweet a** China and Russia are.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

homesteadforty said:


> Africa: The continent has 40 percent of the world's gold and up to 90 percent of its chromium and platinum. The largest reserves of *cobalt, diamonds, platinum and uranium* in the world are in Africa. It holds 65 per cent of the world's arable land and ten percent of the planet's internal renewable fresh water source.
> 
> *South America: Gold, silver, iron, copper, bauxite (aluminum ore), tin, lead, and nickel...* In addition, mines throughout the region produce precious gems, titanium, and tungsten. In fact, South America is among the world's leaders in the mining of raw materials.
> 
> ...


Be that as it may, our way of doing things in the past has brought us no more control over that area so I have no reason to expect continuing to do it will yield any more success than we have had to date 

We can be strong, and China pillaging Africa matters naught. Russia is a dead carcass with a inventory of world killers


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

homesteadforty said:


> Africa: The continent has 40 percent of the world's gold and up to 90 percent of its chromium and platinum. The largest reserves of *cobalt, diamonds, platinum and uranium* in the world are in Africa. It holds 65 per cent of the world's arable land and ten percent of the planet's internal renewable fresh water source.
> 
> *South America: Gold, silver, iron, copper, bauxite (aluminum ore), tin, lead, and nickel...* In addition, mines throughout the region produce precious gems, titanium, and tungsten. In fact, South America is among the world's leaders in the mining of raw materials.
> 
> ...


I understand that sentiment. But, nations such as Japan need to be able to defend themselves. Ukraine, if they hadn't been a corrupt cesspool for decades, should be able to defend itself. IMHO, they actually were on that road which is why Pootey moved when he did or was told to. It was the worst time of year. They didn't allocate nearly enough troops and equipment and have demonstrated the Russian military as being inadequate in every way.

I am more in a revival of the Monroe Doctrine. Wean Asia, Africa and Europe off the dependency on the US for security. Immediately, take up the position that this hemisphere is not available for interference from the rest of the world.

That would be clear, doable and this hemisphere is actually pretty self sufficient.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Hiro said:


> I understand that sentiment. But, nations such as Japan need to be able to defend themselves. Ukraine, if they hadn't been a corrupt cesspool for decades, should be able to defend itself. IMHO, they actually were on that road which is why Pootey moved when he did or was told to. It was the worst time of year. They didn't allocate nearly enough troops and equipment and have demonstrated the Russian military as being inadequate in every way.
> 
> I am more in a revival of the Monroe Doctrine. Wean Asia, Africa and Europe off the dependency on the US for security. Immediately, take up the position that this hemisphere is not available for interference from the rest of the world.
> 
> That would be clear, doable and this hemisphere is actually pretty self sufficient.


Agree


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

HDRider said:


> I think you grossly overstate the peril. Either way, we better be ready. It is happening as we sit here today.
> 
> China is still eating our lunch. Time to rethink all this. Russia is a nonfactor


Both countries are investing heavily in railroads, factories, water systems, etc. all over Africa and SA... they're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.

China has openly stated it's goal of global domination. Russia is a nonfactor today because they are bogged down in Ukraine, thanks to tons of our support. which is of strategic importance to us... if they take Donbas they'll lick their wounds a bit and proceed to Odesa, Moldova and then western Ukraine. After that will come Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, then Finland and Sweden. The only stop will be if NATO risks nuclear war and intervenes... will we??? at what point??? If they are left to succeed they will have the rest of Europe surrounded on three sides (oxymoron alert).

They'll have control of over 75% of the worlds natural resources including over 90% of the worlds oil.

There are plenty of whitepapers written about this... if you think I'm overstating the risk you should look them up.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

homesteadforty said:


> Both countries are investing heavily in railroads, factories, water systems, etc. all over Africa and SA... they're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.
> 
> China has openly stated it's goal of global domination. Russia is a nonfactor today because they are bogged down in Ukraine, thanks to tons of our support. which is of strategic importance to us... if they take Donbas they'll lick their wounds a bit and proceed to Odesa, Moldova and then western Ukraine. After that will come Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, then Finland and Sweden. The only stop will be if NATO risks nuclear war and intervenes... will we??? at what point??? If they are left to succeed they will have the rest of Europe surrounded on three sides (oxymoron alert).
> 
> ...


I have read them. I am fully aware of the efforts. We have no effective counter. China has a lot of our money to invest.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

homesteadforty said:


> Both countries are investing heavily in railroads, factories, water systems, etc. all over Africa and SA... they're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.
> 
> China has openly stated it's goal of global domination. Russia is a nonfactor today because they are bogged down in Ukraine, thanks to tons of our support. which is of strategic importance to us... if they take Donbas they'll lick their wounds a bit and proceed to Odesa, Moldova and then western Ukraine. After that will come Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, then Finland and Sweden. The only stop will be if NATO risks nuclear war and intervenes... will we??? at what point??? If they are left to succeed they will have the rest of Europe surrounded on three sides (oxymoron alert).
> 
> ...


The Chinese people are going extinct. Russia will remain bogged down in Ukraine. Germany, Finland and Sweden are finally growing a set. The strategic situation isn't that dire. The main instigator of this adventurism is these hostile nations know the US doesn't have a real President and a bunch of bickering, woke bureaucrats are ruining the preeminent Superpower.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

Hiro said:


> I understand that sentiment. But, nations such as Japan need to be able to defend themselves. Ukraine, if they hadn't been a corrupt cesspool for decades, should be able to defend itself.


Japan has been hobbled since the end of WWII. It's also limited in it's population and in that it has no nukes of it's own. How is a non nuclear nation of 125 million to defend itself against 1 1/2 billion?

Why Ukraine couldn't defend itself in immaterial to their strategic importance in stopping Russia.



> I am more in a revival of the Monroe Doctrine. Wean Asia, Africa and Europe off the dependency on the US for security. Immediately, take up the position that this hemisphere is not available for interference from the rest of the world.


The Monroe Doctrine was great when China was a feudal backwater and Russia had a Czar... when armies were measured in thousands... when the farthest a weapon could shoot was a couple hundred yards... when an invasion army took many weeks or months to get to you... as my grandpappy used to say to me, sorry Spanky but it just ain't that way no more.

BTW... Russia and China are already all over this hemisphere in SA.



> That would be clear, doable and this hemisphere is actually pretty self sufficient.


Only if we gain and maintain influence all those Central and South American, drug infested, corrupt, dung heaps.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

HDRider said:


> We have no effective counter.


So we should give up and bury our heads in the sand???

The hope is that we can do what we can, while we can and hold them off until things change for the better.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

Hiro said:


> The Chinese people are going extinct.


It's going to take a while with 1.5 billion.



> Russia will remain bogged down in Ukraine.


Not if we stop sending them aid.



> Germany, Finland and Sweden are finally growing a set.


That is easing our burden some but even together they can't match our aid.



> The strategic situation isn't that dire.


But it's damn close... much of the stuff is already occuring.



> The main instigator of this adventurism is these hostile nations know the US doesn't have a real President and a bunch of bickering, woke bureaucrats are ruining the preeminent Superpower.


I don't like him any better than you do, but to blame it on him is way, way to simplistic... this has been going on for decades. The fact that it's much more noticable now is because of how far it has advanced... not because it just started.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

HDRider said:


> Russia is a dead carcass with a inventory of world killers


What's the difference between a bullet to the head or a nuke to the head... neither will work out in your favor.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

homesteadforty said:


> So we should give up and bury our heads in the sand???
> 
> The hope is that we can do what we can, while we can and hold them off until things change for the better.


You can bark at the moon if you want. I will let it run its course and hope that we get our act together internally. Not much hope there either. We are dead men walking.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

homesteadforty said:


> What's the difference between a bullet to the head or a nuke to the head... neither will work out in your favor.


Putin either will do crazy or he will not. Either way, nothing you or I can do.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

HDRider said:


> You can bark at the moon if you want.


Isn't that normal... I do it every night


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

homesteadforty said:


> It's going to take a while with 1.5 billion.


No doubt. But, that die was cast a while back. Egotistical control freaks can't really handle reality. China cannot fuel itself, feed itself or reproduce itself...apparently.




homesteadforty said:


> Not if we stop sending them aid.


I am not convinced that a nation of 41 million, the size of Texas, cannot keep a force of 200,000 incompetent orcs from taking over without our aid. I think it is worthwhile to assist. But, $40 billion without audit is just ridiculous.




homesteadforty said:


> That is easing our burden some but even together they can't match our aid.


We don't have a burden. Ukraine is responsible for its own defense. 



homesteadforty said:


> But it's damn close... much of the stuff is already occuring.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't like him any better than you do, but to blame it on him is way, way to simplistic... this has been going on for decades. The fact that it's much more noticable now is because of how far it has advanced... not because it just started.


You may not like him. But, I know he is just there to get our attention and ire. The folks running this show are out to end you and I am not the only one that knows it. That is why they are emboldened.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

homesteadforty said:


> Both countries are investing heavily in railroads, factories, water systems, etc. all over Africa and SA... they're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.
> 
> China has openly stated it's goal of global domination. Russia is a nonfactor today because they are bogged down in Ukraine, thanks to tons of our support. which is of strategic importance to us... if they take Donbas they'll lick their wounds a bit and proceed to Odesa, Moldova and then western Ukraine. After that will come Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, then Finland and Sweden. The only stop will be if NATO risks nuclear war and intervenes... will we??? at what point??? If they are left to succeed they will have the rest of Europe surrounded on three sides (oxymoron alert).
> 
> ...





HDRider said:


> I have read them. I am fully aware of the efforts. We have no effective counter. China has a lot of our money to invest.


We can compete with china with many of the same techniques they use. It has worked and is working quite well for them. Many do not seem to realize how much chinas actions are negatively affecting our every day lives. For some reason the USA cannot grasp the idea. Large part of the reason we are in the position we are in around the world. One of the reason china has a lot of money to invest is because the USA and its citizens, politicians, and especially corporations cannot grasp the ideas and methods the chinese use. Or just do not care.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Redlands Okie said:


> We can compete with china with many of the same techniques they use. It has worked and is working quite well for them. Many do not seem to realize how much chinas actions are negatively affecting our every day lives. For some reason the USA cannot grasp the idea. Large part of the reason we are in the position we are in around the world. One of the reason china has a lot of money to invest is because the USA and its citizens, politicians, and especially corporations cannot grasp the ideas and methods the chinese use. Or just do not care.


Find where we criticize China. We don't, or not on the scale China propagandizes against us. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535206453363228672


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

True, and easy to do with properly controlled media. Here the media is just guided in a different direction.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

homesteadforty said:


> If Russia and China were to control the natural resources and strategic territories in Africa and South America,


Have you been to South Africa, South America, or Central Asia? Every infrastructure project you see, roads, bridges, air ports, and dams are all being built by the Chinese. They don't give them money, they actually show up and start building stuff. The last time I was in Peru, the new President was a Chinese immigrant. We lost that battle a long time ago.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

China is our enemy, but they under bid everybody else, so nobody cares. They are laughing all the way to the bank.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

SLOVYANSK, Ukraine — The euphoria that accompanied Ukraine’s unforeseen early victories against bumbling Russian troops is fading as Moscow adapts its tactics, recovers its stride and asserts its overwhelming firepower against heavily outgunned Ukrainian forces.

*Newly promised Western weapons systems are arriving, but too slowly and in insufficient quantities to prevent incremental but inexorable Russian gains in the eastern Donbas region of Ukraine, which is now the focus of the fight.

The Ukrainians are still fighting back, but they are running out of ammunition and suffering casualties at a far higher rate than in the initial stages of the war. *Around 200 Ukrainian soldiers are now being killed every day, up from 100 late last month, an aide to President Volodymyr Zelensky told the BBC on Friday — meaning that as many as 1,000 Ukrainians are being taken out of the fight every day, including those who are injured.  Stripes


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Now, with the conflict in its fourth month, *U.S. officials are facing the disappointing reality that the powerful coalition of nations — stretching from North America across Europe and into East Asia — may not be enough to break the looming stalemate in Ukraine.*

With growing urgency, the *Biden administration is trying to coax or cajole countries that have declared themselves neutral in the conflict — including India, Brazil, Israel and the Gulf Arab states — to join the campaign of economic sanctions, military support and diplomatic pressure to further isolate Russia and bring a decisive end to the war. So far, few if any of them have been willing,* despite their partnerships with Washington on other major security matters.  DNYUZ


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

muleskinner2 said:


> Have you been to South Africa, South America, or Central Asia?


You can take this as you wish, but I don't discuss where I've been, why I've been there or under what circumstance I arrived or left... especially not on the internet. But I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about (though it has been a few years).


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> *U.S. officials are facing the disappointing reality that the powerful coalition of nations — stretching from North America across Europe and into East Asia — may not be enough to break the looming stalemate in Ukraine.*


I still haven't seen your answer to my direct question: Do you think Russia was right or wrong to invade Ukraine?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

homesteadforty said:


> I still haven't seen your answer to my direct question: Do you think Russia was right or wrong to invade Ukraine?


I don't know enough to have an opinion. In general, I don't believe any country should invade another country, but we don't know the level of interference by the EU, the US, and NATO. The US invaded Panama, the US invaded Grenada, the US attempted an invasion of Cuba, etc. If the US can invade a foreign country to protect its sphere of influence why can't Russia? Please explain to me why what the US has done is OK but what Russia has done is not.

My point from the beginning is the war could have been prevented if Biden and other world leaders had wanted to prevent it. My 2nd point was Ukraine cannot win a war against Russia. I underestimated how much aid the US would pump into Ukraine, so the war has gone on much longer than I expected, but it is now likely nearing an end.


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## Vjk (Apr 28, 2020)

I'm an optimistic fellow. I'm hoping Vlad and G Ping Pong drop dead of heart attacks from laughing so hard at the USA.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> I don't know enough to have an opinion. In general, I don't believe any country should invade another country, but we don't know the level of interference by the EU, the US, and NATO.


Yep... but those damned geopolitics get in the way of a pollyannish world.



> The US invaded Panama, the US invaded Grenada, the US attempted an invasion of Cuba, etc. If the US can invade a foreign country to protect its sphere of influence why can't Russia? Please explain to me why what the US has done is OK but what Russia has done is not.


Nothing you can tell me about Panama or Grenada... Cuba was a bit before my time though.

Those "invasions" were because of specific threats. In Grenada there was a military coup and our help was requested by a number of Grenada's Caribbean neighbors (five or six IIRC). We invaded Panama because Noriega had become a major narco terrorist and was threatening the safety of ships using the Panama Canal. U.S. warrants had been issued for his arrest.



> My point from the beginning is the war could have been prevented if Biden and other world leaders had wanted to prevent it.


Possibly. But, Putin doesn't have a very good record regarding keeping agreements so I won 't have held my breath.



> My 2nd point was Ukraine cannot win a war against Russia. I underestimated how much aid the US would pump into Ukraine, so the war has gone on much longer than I expected, but it is now likely nearing an end.


I still don't know that they can't win. You underestimated on one hand... overestimated on another and now you're estimating that it's nearly at an end... pardon me but your estimation track record is not very good... is it?


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Ukraine doesn't have to win. They just have to not lose. No country, not utterly defeated, will ever sign an armistice with the orc nation again as long as whoever is running it now is in power.

Given Russia's performance in this conflict, perhaps Finland could march some of their older women into Russia and take it over.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Hiro said:


> Ukraine doesn't have to win. They just have to not lose. No country, not utterly defeated, will ever sign an armistice with the orc nation again as long as whoever is running it now is in power.
> 
> Given Russia's performance in this conflict, perhaps Finland could march some of their older women into Russia and take it over.


The reports I posted said Ukraine is almost out of ammunition and is losing 1000 soldiers a day plus is losing support from other nations. Not my words.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> The reports I posted said Ukraine is almost out of ammunition and is losing 1000 soldiers a day plus is losing support from other nations. Not my words.


It is fascinating how you put trust in reports positive for the orc nation and no trust in reports positive for the invaded nation.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Hiro said:


> It is fascinating how you put trust in reports positive for the orc nation and no trust in reports positive for the invaded nation.


So you have a better source than Stars and Stripes?

I'm waiting for you guys to post your sources. I stand by mine.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> So you have a better source than Stars and Stripes?
> 
> I'm waiting for you guys to post your sources. I stand by mine.


You are getting yours from main stream press. I can't speak for others. But, I am getting information from people that are there or have been there recently. Orcs are evil.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

I will add that fortunately orcs are incompetent and don't know how to operate or maintain their own equipment.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Hiro said:


> You are getting yours from main stream press. I can't speak for others. But, I am getting information from people that are there or have been there recently. Orcs are evil.


As I have said several times, I use sources that have direct access to information in Ukraine. Rarely do I use mainstream media. Just as the government and mainstream media lied about Covid-19, they have been lying about Ukraine. On the other hand, things have gotten so bad in Ukraine, that the NYT, WP, and even Stars and Stripes are now telling at least part of the truth.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

MoonRiver said:


> I don't know enough to have an opinion. In general, I don't believe any country should invade another country, but we don't know the level of interference by the EU, the US, and NATO. The US invaded Panama, the US invaded Grenada, the US attempted an invasion of Cuba, etc. If the US can invade a foreign country to protect its sphere of influence why can't Russia? Please explain to me why what the US has done is OK but what Russia has done is not.
> 
> My point from the beginning is the war could have been prevented if Biden and other world leaders had wanted to prevent it. My 2nd point was Ukraine cannot win a war against Russia. I underestimated how much aid the US would pump into Ukraine, so the war has gone on much longer than I expected, but it is now likely nearing an end.


Unlike russia the USA did not plan on keeping the land and its resources. Wait, there is more, russia has already stolen equipment, resources, kidnapped thousands of citizens and shipped them all back to russia. For any but a Putin supporter its hard to come up with a justifiable reason for the invasion.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Redlands Okie said:


> Unlike russia the USA did not plan on keeping the land and its resources. Wait, there is more, russia has already stolen equipment, resources, kidnapped thousands of citizens and shipped them all back to russia. For any but a Putin supporter its hard to come up with a justifiable reason for the invasion.


So you are OK with Russia invading Ukraine as long as they don't keep any of the land?


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> So you are OK with Russia invading Ukraine as long as they don't keep any of the land?


It's too late for that... see Crimea. They also have poor history with that... see Georgia, Chechnya, etc.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

MoonRiver said:


> So you are OK with Russia invading Ukraine as long as they don't keep any of the land?


No, russia does not have a history of invading and leaving. They play for keeps and seem to be doing quite well in the last decade or two.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Throw another billion on the fire

06/15/2022 03:38 PM EDT​The United States will send more than $1 billion in weapons and humanitarian aid to Ukraine amid the country’s ongoing war with Russia, President Joe Biden announced Wednesday afternoon.​







Biden announces additional $1B in weapons, humanitarian aid to Ukraine


Biden spoke with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy on Wednesday morning to reaffirm the United States’ support for the war-torn nation.




www.politico.com


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

On March 19, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy by decree enacted the decision of the National Security and Defense Council of March 18 to suspend the activities of 11 parties: Opposition Platform - For Life, Party of Shariy, Nashi, Opposition Bloc, Left Opposition, Union of Left Forces, Derzhava, Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialists, Volodymyr Saldo Bloc. 


https://press.ukranews.com/en/news/863452-court-bans-activities-of-shariy-party-and-left-opposition-party



June 20, 2022
*A court has ordered the assets of the country’s leading pro-Russian and Eurosceptic party transferred to the state*
Ukraine’s Opposition Platform – For Life (OPPL) party was officially banned by a Ukrainian court on Monday. The Ministry of Justice announced on Facebook that all of its assets, property, and funds are to be transferred to the state.


https://thepressunited.com/updates/ukraine-bans-top-opposition-party/


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Are they really this tome deaf?

Thus, back-of-an-envelope calculations assume a positive correlation between the share of refugees who are of working age and the duration and severity of the war.​​*Thus, taking evidence on the integration of previous waves of refugees and adapting it to the current situation, we envisage a medium-term labour force participation rate of between 25% and 55% for working-age refugees.*​







The impact of the influx of Ukrainian refugees on the euro area labour force


The European Central Bank (ECB) is the central bank of the 19 European Union countries which have adopted the euro. Our main task is to maintain price stability in the euro area and so preserve the purchasing power of the single currency.




www.ecb.europa.eu




Am I misunderstanding this? Are they celebrating the influx of much needed workers?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

As I have been saying since the war started, our military and the CIA are the ones driving the war on the part of the Ukrainians. Otherwise, the war would have been over weeks ago.

As Russian troops press ahead with a grinding campaign to seize eastern Ukraine, t*he nation’s ability to resist the onslaught depends more than ever on help from the United States and its allies — including a stealthy network of commandos and spies rushing to provide weapons, intelligence and training, according to U.S. and European officials.*​...​The* C.I.A. officers operating in Ukraine* have focused on directing the intelligence that the U.S. government has been providing the Ukrainian government. Most of their work has been in Kyiv, according to current and former officials. NYT​


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Ukraine is keeping the war going, fighting for their country, their land. Other countries are helping Ukraine by supplying funds and supplies because Russia should not be allowed to take over another country by force.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> As I have been saying since the war started, our military and the CIA are the ones driving the war on the part of the Ukrainians. Otherwise, the war would have been over weeks ago.
> 
> As Russian troops press ahead with a grinding campaign to seize eastern Ukraine, t*he nation’s ability to resist the onslaught depends more than ever on help from the United States and its allies — including a stealthy network of commandos and spies rushing to provide weapons, intelligence and training, according to U.S. and European officials.*​...​The* C.I.A. officers operating in Ukraine* have focused on directing the intelligence that the U.S. government has been providing the Ukrainian government. Most of their work has been in Kyiv, according to current and former officials. NYT​


I don't recall anybody saying the U.S., NATO and the EU are not involved, so your post is no revelation at all. In fact I've seen many say we aren't doing enough.

What we disagree with is your condonation of the Russian attack on it's sovereign neighbor.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Masters of war


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

homesteadforty said:


> What we disagree with is your condonation of the Russian attack on it's sovereign neighbor.


I am getting tired of you and others lying. I have never condoned, approved of, or endorsed Russia's attack on Ukraine. If your argument is so weak you have to lie to try to win, maybe you should examine your "facts".


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> I am getting tired of you and others lying. I have never condoned, approved of, or endorsed Russia's attack on Ukraine. If your argument is so weak you have to lie to try to win, maybe you should examine your "facts".


*con·done*
/kənˈdōn/

_verb_


accept and allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue.

Seems to me that you have not only _accepted_ the Russian invasion but have given your version of validations for said invasion. Need I go back and quote all the times you have said "they're only doing it because of _xyz_... or can you actually recall the words you speak???


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Hello everybody, my name is Hadley Gamble. I'm a CNBC senior anchor and international correspondent. It's fantastic to welcome you all here to the World Economic Forum, and to welcome this gentleman, His Excellency, Ukraine's Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba. Sir, thank you so much for joining us at such a crucial time for your country and thank you all for coming. I want to kick off by asking you to respond directly to the comments made, just a couple of days ago by Henry Kissinger. He's essentially said that Ukraine must give up territory in order for Vladimir Putin to save face. 









'This is a war for our identity': Q&A with Ukraine's foreign minister


Ukraine's Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba was in conversation with the World Economic Forum at Davos 2022.




www.weforum.org


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

NATO will significantly increase the number of forces on high alert to over 300,000 from 40,000 as part of the biggest overhaul of the alliance's defences since the Cold War.

With *Vladimir Putin*'s invasion of Ukraine changing the security environment across Europe, the head of the alliance also confirmed that allies will expand troop deployments in *NATO* countries that sit closest to *Russia*.


*Ukraine* is not a member of NATO.

The decisions will be set out at a landmark summit this week in Madrid.

"Together, this constitutes the biggest overhaul of our collective deterrence and defence since the Cold War," Jens Stoltenberg said, in a briefing at NATO headquarters in Brussels on Monday.



He said the 30-member alliance is expected to consider Russia to be "the most significant and direct threat to our security".









NATO to dramatically increase forces on high alert to over 300,000 from 40,000 amid Russia threat


Units deployed across eight eastern and southeastern NATO countries to deter Russia hostilities will rise in size from 1,000-strong battlegroups to brigades, which comprise around 3,000-5,000 troops with more war-fighting equipment in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia.




news.sky.com


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> As I have been saying since the war started, our military and the CIA are the ones driving the war on the part of the Ukrainians. Otherwise, the war would have been over weeks ago.
> 
> As Russian troops press ahead with a grinding campaign to seize eastern Ukraine, t*he nation’s ability to resist the onslaught depends more than ever on help from the United States and its allies — including a stealthy network of commandos and spies rushing to provide weapons, intelligence and training, according to U.S. and European officials.*​...​The* C.I.A. officers operating in Ukraine* have focused on directing the intelligence that the U.S. government has been providing the Ukrainian government. Most of their work has been in Kyiv, according to current and former officials. NYT​


More pro-Russia, anti-Ukraine/west BS on your part.

Russia is driving the war, full-stop.

What the US and other backers are doing is providing the Ukrainians with arms support that serves to turn more of your comrades into good commies. Without our support, this war would still be going on, it would just be an asymmetric one. Our support makes it into a somewhat more symmetric war.

You’ve been cheering for capitulation for months, implying that that would end the war. It would not. The reality is that the Ukrainian people would continue fighting, just as Mrs. Painter says. They would just be fighting with less sophisticated arms. That doesn’t mean fewer Ukrainians dead, it just means fewer Russians dead - which is, obviously, why you’re so vocal in supporting that outcome.

Consider that your Boo Putey-Poo has been waging an insurgency war in Donbas and Luhansk for over a decade. There has been a war raging there, it’s just an asymmetric one, where Russia has to fight from a covert, underdog position, and Ukraine gets to fight from an overt, uniformed and fully-equipped position.

Your “solution” would just force the Ukrainians to fight, for their, *not the Russians’*,(_emphasized since you clearly don’t get that_) land, on a turned table. Your “solution” would force the Ukrainians to become the insurgency in their own land, while the Russians got to fight from the overt, uniformed position.

You’re just mad that the west’s support of Ukraine makes it a somewhat fair fight, and your kind doesn’t like fair fights. Commies never do. You’re not strong enough, tactically or ideologically to win a fair fight, so, here you are, relaying the Kremlin’s propaganda in a hail-Mary effort to gain your side an advantage on a battlefield that doesn’t belong to you.

If you really wanted to end the war, and stop the bloodshed, you’d be working the comment sections in the sources of the propaganda that does your thinking for you, trying to convince your fellow Russian sycophants that _they_ (_you_) are the ones driving this unjust war.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

homesteadforty said:


> *con·done*
> /kənˈdōn/
> 
> _verb_
> ...


Explaining is not approving.

No one yet has quoted anything I posted that was an approval of Russia's behavior. Understanding why Russia attacked Ukraine is not approving of it.

Talk is cheap. Quote something I posted where I said I approved of Russia's action.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> Explaining is not approving.
> 
> No one yet has quoted anything I posted that was an approval of Russia's behavior. Understanding why Russia attacked Ukraine is not approving of it.
> 
> Talk is cheap. Quote something I posted where I said I approved of Russia's action.


Accept and allow... not approve (it's right after 1. in the definition I posted). You have repeatedly tried to validate their actions. Whether your trying to do it to convince us... or trying to convince yourself is something you should try to determine privately and internally.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

homesteadforty said:


> Accept and allow... not approve (it's right after 1. in the definition I posted). You have repeatedly tried to validate their actions. Whether your trying to do it to convince us... or trying to convince yourself is something you should try to determine privately and internally.


I showed that the US took certain actions and Russia responded. You are free to interpret that how ever your beliefs lead you.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> I showed that the US took certain actions and Russia responded. You are free to interpret that how ever your beliefs lead you.


I do think the back and forth is very drawn out and somewhat muddled.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

HDRider said:


> I do think the back and forth is very drawn out and somewhat muddled.


Sorry... it is getting old. But, you resurrected a thread that hadn't seen a post in four days... just sayin'


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## misab270 (7 mo ago)

The U.S. gave Ukraine almost as much money in the military budget as Russia had in the military budget of Russia for a year.😁


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

homesteadforty said:


> Sorry... it is getting old. But, you resurrected a thread that hadn't seen a post in four days... just sayin'


And I will continue to do so.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> I showed that the US took certain actions and Russia responded. You are free to interpret that how ever your beliefs lead you.


More anti-US, pro-Commie BS. You’ve made dozens of posts “explaining” why Russia is doing what it’s doing, every… single… one of them presenting the argument that the US provoked Russia.

You’ve been presented very detailed timelines that show that RUSSIA was the provocateur, that RUSSIA has been trying to steal back Ukraine for over 20 years and that EVERYTHING the US has done there was in response to Russia’s actions.

But you willfully choose to ignore those historical facts, and continue to paint this situation as being the US’ fault. You can continue to claim that you’re not on Russia’s side in this, but it’s 100% crystal clear to anyone who’s taken the time to read your pro-Russia propaganda-laden posts.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Is the strength of the Russian Ruble lower the value of the Chinese Yuan

Stronger than ever









Weakening


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

A weaker Yuan makes Chinese imports less expensive in the US


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## ZorLence (7 mo ago)

This is a very long discussion. I think you should change your mind about it because no one knows the truth.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

ZorLence said:


> This is a very long discussion. I think you should change your mind about it because no one knows the truth.


If no one knows the truth, what should one change their mind to believe? 

BTW - I do know the truth. Sorry you can't figure it out.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I heard a report last night that a lot of the weaponry the US is shipping to Ukraine is getting sold on the black market.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> I heard a report last night that a lot of the weaponry the US is shipping to Ukraine is getting sold on the black market.


Another "report" with no source... if I were the distrustful type I might think you make this  up.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

homesteadforty said:


> Another "report" with no source... if I were the distrustful type I might think you make this  up.


@MoonRiver doesn’t have to make any of it up. Putin’s propaganda machine is more than able and willing to make it up for him. He only needs to repeat what they tell him in order to serve his purpose to paint the US as the bad guy and show his support of the commies.

Do US foreign-aid weapons ever show up on the black market? Duh.

…but not Putey-Poo’s. He wouldn’t let Moon down by having Russia contribute to the global black-market proliferation of armaments. No. Moon’s Boo, Pu, would never do that.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

“_Moon’s Boo, Pu…_”

I crack me up.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> “_Moon’s Boo, Pu…_”
> 
> I crack me up.


You crack me up sometimes too...


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

homesteadforty said:


> You crack me up sometimes too...


Don't encourage him


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Europol, the EU’s law enforcement agency, said in April that its investigations indicated that *weapons trafficking from Ukraine into the bloc to supply organised crime groups had begun and was a potential threat to EU security.*

todayUKnews

I continue to provide facts and you continue with name calling.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

MoonRiver said:


> And when the war is over, who is going to pay for the Ukrainian government salaries and who is going to pay to rebuild Ukraine? And what about government pensions?
> 
> *The US will soon not exist as a Constitutional Republic, if it even does today.*


The Republic died a few years ago.

It is being propped up by TPTB, but the smoke and mirrors won't hold on much longer.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

When it gets to the point that insults are being hurled, there is no longer any constructive discussion.


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