# EMP attack on USA being planned?



## andrew3d (Jun 23, 2002)

A friend emailed me this link (inserted below) which is about North Korea prepping for an EMP attack on the USA. How would any of us prepare to survive this if the attack was successful? If anyone has thoughts or suggestions, please share them. If you are an expert, please educate the rest of us. Thanks.

http://www.wnd.com/2016/02/expert-north-korea-prepping-for-emp-attack-on-u-s/


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...&fr=ytff1-tyc&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-006The http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sp...y-caching-program-errors-total-re-design.html


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## mustangglp (Jul 7, 2015)

I've heard for a while that this is what they are working on evidently the Soviets admitted leaking the technology to them years ago.
Lots of disagreement on how it would effect things like cars or solar panel controls?
The Soviets and China are rumored to be able to take it down with Internet as we can theirs.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

Likely the hugest problem with wide spread grid down, will be the cooling pools for spent fuel rods at the nuclear reactor sites.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Sourdough said:


> Likely the hugest problem with wide spread grid down, will be the cooling pools for spent fuel rods at the nuclear reactor sites.


That would be a huge problem but I think lack of power to pump water for the cities and resulting riots/fires that follow would have a more wide spread effect.


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## LuLuToo (Dec 19, 2015)

Who knows? It could happen. Have you heard about the fiber optic cables being cut in the area around Super Bowl 50? 

http://mashable.com/2016/01/18/super-bowl-50-security/#2gAyljUaoPqC

http://www.nbcwashington.com/invest...ptics-Attack-Connected-to-Plot-365651251.html

LuLu


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## mustangglp (Jul 7, 2015)

terri9630 said:


> That would be a huge problem but I think lack of power to pump water for the cities and resulting riots/fires that follow would have a more wide spread effect.


Our city has propane backup pumps with massive tanks I don't know how big they are but as big as the propane dealers tank's


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Sourdough said:


> Likely the hugest problem with wide spread grid down, will be the cooling pools for spent fuel rods at the nuclear reactor sites.


That's a possibility only to the extent they run out of fuel.

Those generators are shielded against direct hits from tornadoes. I'm not sure about an EMP. Given how old the technology is in the last nuclear power plants that were built, I doubt an EMP would affect them. Diesels don't have an ignition system that could be affected by an EMP.

As long as they have fuel, they'll run. 

They are isolated from the power grid.

If the grid went down, the reactor would scram and then go to cold iron status automatically without operator intervention. What I don't know is what's happened in the industry since the concerns about EMPs became known. Has the NRC required utilities to add equipment that enables the plant to power itself after an EMP. 

Normally the power from the turbine generator feeds three buses that look like large aluminum pipes. Those feed the main transformers. If one of those is lost is there a way to route power into the plant?


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

Andrew, you are out of date by a couple of decades. Currently there are only two countries, Russia and China, that have the hydrogen bomb that is capable of producing a large scale EMP and considered non friendly to the USA. It would be suicide for ether of them to use this weapon as we can destroy both countries simultaneously. If our power grid was to be attacked it would now be via the internet. You should have heard about how Iran's nuclear material centrifuges were destroyed and the same thing can happen to our SCADA systems that control the power grid in this country. Again probably suicide, but more countries now have the capability to do this. 

If you want to get up to date on the current thinking and vulnerabilities read the book "Lights Out" by Ted Koppel the Nightline news caster and released last year.


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## Canyonero (Jan 20, 2016)

Of all the things I worry about, an EMP attack by the hermit kingdom, which can't even feed it's own people and would be obliterated in response, is low on the list.

Setting off a couple of low-grade underground nukes is one thing. Building, launching and detonating a nuke in space in the exact manner to cause widespread EMP damage is another thing altogether.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

OK......I understand that. However what I do NOT understand is how they would get fuel.........If all the pipelines that transport fuel are down, Trucking is down and the roads are clogged for hundreds of miles. Where does this "Magic" diesel fuel come from........????




Darren said:


> That's a possibility only to the extent they run out of fuel.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Sourdough said:


> OK......I understand that. However what I do NOT understand is how they would get fuel.........If all the pipelines that transport fuel are down, Trucking is down and the roads are clogged for hundreds of miles. Where does this "Magic" diesel fuel come from........????


Some of the units have combustion turbine powered generators that are powered by natural gas. It comes down to looking at individual power plants and the area including the pipelines and the necessary compressors. Are they powered by electricity or the older ones that use some of the natural gas to fuel the engine driven compressors?

All of the units have the diesel generators necessary for cold shutdown. What they've done beyond the original regulatory requirements may not be publicly known. Do they have carloads of diesel setting on a nearby railroad spur? Is there a coastal sized tanker moored at the plant dock?


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

Canyonero said:


> Of all the things I worry about, an EMP attack by the hermit kingdom, which can't even feed it's own people and would be obliterated in response, is low on the list.
> 
> Setting off a couple of low-grade underground nukes is one thing. Building, launching and detonating a nuke in space in the exact manner to cause widespread EMP damage is another thing altogether.


Plus there is no evidence NK has a second generation bomb except their press release. Let alone a third or fourth generation bomb that can be sent long distances. Their first few, maybe three, tests were duds or partial explosions of a first generation bomb which is not capable of producing a large scale EMP. For a EMP you need a hydrogen bomb which is initiated by a nuclear trigger that explodes, thus creating a second generation bomb.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

So.......the bottom-line is "sooner or later" depending on which way the wind drifts, pretty much everyone with-in a thousand miles of nuclear power plants, dies a horrible death of radiation sickness.






Darren said:


> Some of the units have combustion turbine powered generators that are powered by natural gas. It comes down to looking at individual power plants and the area including the pipelines and the necessary compressors. Are they powered by electricity or the older ones that use some of the natural gas to fuel the engine driven compressors?
> 
> All of the units have the diesel generators necessary for cold shutdown. What they've done beyond the original regulatory requirements may not be publicly known. Do they have carloads of diesel setting on a nearby railroad spur? Is there a coastal sized tanker moored at the plant dock?


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## farmsteader6 (Dec 19, 2014)

Back in 2003 i worked on a new powerplant in indiana. It contained 4 natural gas turbines and 2 steam turbines. It required an outside power source to start. It was unable to start on its own.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

farmsteader6 said:


> Back in 2003 i worked on a new powerplant in indiana. It contained 4 natural gas turbines and 2 steam turbines. It required an outside power source to start. It was unable to start on its own.


That's normal for power plants except for nukes. All power plants have a startup transformer to bring in power from the grid to start the sequence necessary to bring the plant online. You need a source of electrical power.

Nukes do not need an outside source of power due to the diesel generators on site. They can startup when the grid is dead. That's called black start capability. All nuclear power plants have black start capability due to regulatory requirements.


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## farmsteader6 (Dec 19, 2014)

From what i was told, coal fired plants are able to cold start also. But the feds are phasing them out. Yaayyy.


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## andrew3d (Jun 23, 2002)

Explorer said:


> Andrew, you are out of date by a couple of decades. Currently there are only two countries, Russia and China, that have the hydrogen bomb that is capable of producing a large scale EMP and considered non friendly to the USA. It would be suicide for ether of them to use this weapon as we can destroy both countries simultaneously. If our power grid was to be attacked it would now be via the internet. You should have heard about how Iran's nuclear material centrifuges were destroyed and the same thing can happen to our SCADA systems that control the power grid in this country. Again probably suicide, but more countries now have the capability to do this.
> 
> If you want to get up to date on the current thinking and vulnerabilities read the book "Lights Out" by Ted Koppel the Nightline news caster and released last year.


Explorer, I've read Ted Koppel's book. I only posted an article that was published 18 hours ago for discussion and ask those that are knowledgeable, such as yourself, to respond so we can all learn. I do believe there is room for questioning. How do we know the information used to form various differing opinions by experts are accurate? It seems many believe Russia or China are not helping North Korea, but how can they be sure? Other experts say they are doing so behind a smoke screen to fool us. While, as you said, we do have the ability to destroy both Russia and China if it comes to that, my opinion is the Obama administration will do nothing. 

Anyway, it is nice to see you are still around :happy2:


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## farmsteader6 (Dec 19, 2014)

It seems these days its all about noteriety. I dont think Nk gives a hoot that theyd be blown off the face of the planet. He knows that he would be famous for taking down the mighty USA. I think that applies to many countries these days. Not to mention that there are so many lone wolves out there that could do serious harm to us through other means. Cyber, dirty bomb That we wouldnt know who to go after to even retaliate.


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## rule4 (Feb 19, 2013)

An EMP type event is one of my greatest fears... I feel like its a very unlikely event to be brought about by a super power but if NK did have the capability I think they might just be crazy enough to do it.

A bigger threat and much more likely is a solar flare similar to the "carrington event". That is a very plausible scenario. If you've never heard of it do a google search. 

There is a great fiction on EMP that was a best seller a few years back. One Second After by William R. Forstchen pretty much sums up what the aftermath of an EMP could be like.


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## farmsteader6 (Dec 19, 2014)

An EMP seems to stick in my mind as well. Maybe just because ive read one too many novels about it. Now im far from a rocket scientist but it seems by todays standards it would take relatively low technology to lob a missile into the atmosphere and set it off some where over the USA. its not like they have a specific target or sending a missile through a window of a highrise like we have seen on the news.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

IF that crazy Korean guy thinks he has a hydrogen bomb big enough to cause a large enough EMP to really effect the US, he'd probably have to deliver it by hand. Rockets to deliver those kinds of weapons, that far, are pretty rare in NK... Especially ones that get to where they are going without blowing up on the way there.


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## Blueridgeviews (May 3, 2015)

What about Iran --- won't they be able to in a few years with the new deal they just got?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

To produce an EMP the attacker still needs to deliver a warhead and detonate it high above our country. How will they do that?


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## k9 (Feb 6, 2008)

Aren't most modern diesel engines computer controlled? My understanding an EMP is hard on computers.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

I am not worried.........


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

k9 said:


> Aren't most modern diesel engines computer controlled? My understanding an EMP is hard on computers.


The most recent diesel generator order for a nuclear power plant now in operation was sometime in the mid-seventies. Those aren't computer controlled.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

I have not been able to get "Lights Out" by Ted Koppel, can the ones that have read it tell us how he thinks we can prepare.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

That is nice.........sadly the same can NOT be said for the diesel refinery's, the diesel pipelines, the diesel fuel tanker trucks, the electric or diesel powered cho'choo trains, the employees who are on the next two shifts, aviation flight services, etc. (But, I am not worried)






Darren said:


> The most recent diesel generator order for a nuclear power plant now in operation was sometime in the mid-seventies. Those aren't computer controlled.


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## k9 (Feb 6, 2008)

Darren said:


> The most recent diesel generator order for a nuclear power plant now in operation was sometime in the mid-seventies. Those aren't computer controlled.


Are they then tied to the grid to tell them to start when the grid goes down? If they are that is a point of failure, the start controls would be fried. Hopefully there would be some resourceful people around that could figure out a work around for that....


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## farmsteader6 (Dec 19, 2014)

Ok so say they can get the turbines to run at the powerplants. What are they going to energize?? All the street level transformers will most likely blow. All the remote substations will most likely blow. So if something like this would happen we would still be years with out electric.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

k9 said:


> Are they then tied to the grid to tell them to start when the grid goes down? If they are that is a point of failure, the start controls would be fried. Hopefully there would be some resourceful people around that could figure out a work around for that....


The emergency diesel generators at nuclear power plants are not tied to the grid.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

farmsteader6 said:


> Ok so say they can get the turbines to run at the powerplants. What are they going to energize?? All the street level transformers will most likely blow. All the remote substations will most likely blow. So if something like this would happen we would still be years with out electric.


It depends on what happens to the main transformers which step up the voltage and are connected to the switch yard which connects the power plant to the grid via the transmission lines out of the switch yard.

If all of the transformers survive, the power plant can supply power to the grid. That doesn't mean power will be available at the point of use because there's a lot more equipment involved that could be fried.


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## farmsteader6 (Dec 19, 2014)

Does anyone know what percentage of power is produced by nuclear power plants in this country? I know firsthand the amount of computers involved in making the gas turbines run. Not to mention all the other systems involved. The cooling towers, the demineralization plants. All those systems are out in the open and hardly hardened against an EMP.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Instead of looking at the total percentage, it's more relevant to look at where the power is generated for your area. As an example most of the nuclear power plants in New England have been forced to close. People living there will probably be SOL as far as getting power restored.

West Virginia is a net energy exporter that relies mostly on coal. Ditto on being SOL in case of an EMP. 

Ideally look at a map showing the nuclear power plants. Worse case you may not want to live down wind. Up wind might be safer and a close proximity to the plant might mean you'll benefit from a fast restoration of power compared to people in New England.

If the main transformers are fried at the plant/s that provide power to your region, you can count on living like it's sometime in the 1800s for years. If you're not prepared to do that you can kiss your butt good by.


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## andrew3d (Jun 23, 2002)

Anyone really interested should read Ted Koppel's book, Lights Out.

Most of his book describes the danger of a cyberattack to our electric grid, he explains how we have become vulnerable due to more players, and interconnections, and digitizing how electricity is moved. Consumers buy from local companies, but the electricity could be produced and moved through the hands of several players. This, he claims, increases how vulnerable we are.

If anyone wants to read about how Russian nuclear and EMP technology has been possibly transferred to North Korea, read pages 22, 23.

Here is the link to Amazon 
http://www.amazon.com/Lights-Out-Cyberattack-Unprepared-Surviving/dp/055341996X


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

Of course America could launch a rocket from a submarine off the coast of North Korea, or off either USA coasts. Lighting off a single small'ish EMP over America's mid west. Possibly add a few rockets that are duds, at the same time to make it appear the perpetrator was not as advanced as they thought they were, but scaring the poop out of New York City and Atlanta area. 

This could serve as a false flag, to enroll NATO into the destruction of whomever was next on the list to be neutralized. Thereby ensuring the US Dollar remains the worlds reserve currency for another twenty or thirty years.

Or it could also be used to halt or arrest a civil war, a revolution, or massive world financial anarchy, by establishing a common enemy, that all Americans can hate, vilify, malign, destroy with extreme prejudices.

(Special Note: To NSA/FBI/CIA/ETC., this is just an outline for a movie script.)


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Darren said:


> To produce an EMP the attacker still needs to deliver a warhead and detonate it high above our country. How will they do that?


By boat. Shipping containers have to get here to be inspected. A shipping container with a false/removable top will get the launcher right on our coast.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

terri9630 said:


> By boat. Shipping containers have to get here to be inspected. A shipping container with a false/removable top will get the launcher right on our coast.


After 9/11 we started inspecting shipping containers at their port of origin. I'm not sure what we do about the odd container ostensibly used just for storage that might be secured to a ship's deck. The Russians started selling these within the past few years. With these an ordinary transport ship can be turned into a Q boat.

[YOUTUBE]mbUU_9bOcnM[/YOUTUBE]


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

Will those missiles get up to the stratosphere and inland 1500 miles? If not then you don't have a effect EMP. That still begs the question of not knowing who is that attacker, still only two possible countries.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I would be concerned more about a solar flare induced EMP than a foreign country doing that. I don't think the container missiles have the load capacity or the range for an EMP attack. The video shows there are surreptitious ways of attacking.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

Darren said:


> I would be concerned more about a solar flare induced EMP than a foreign country doing that. I don't think the container missiles have the load capacity or the range for an EMP attack. ....


I agree completely.


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse

The problem is very little testing has been done. No one really knows what will happen. The general thing I get is the longer a wire something is hooked to the more chance something will go wrong. For example your cell phone may still power on but the tower hooked to the grid will be down. A battery operated radio may work but one plugged into the power grid may not. Probably most cars will work, unless they are constructed largely of plastic. The pulse needs an antenna, the longer the antenna the more powerful the pulse. A weak pulse won't be able to do damage.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

BlackFeather said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse
> 
> The problem is very little testing has been done. No one really knows what will happen. The general thing I get is the longer a wire something is hooked to the more chance something will go wrong. For example your cell phone may still power on but the tower hooked to the grid will be down. A battery operated radio may work but one plugged into the power grid may not. Probably most cars will work, unless they are constructed largely of plastic. *The pulse needs an antenna, the longer the antenna the more powerful the pulse. A weak pulse won't be able to do damage*.


That is what happened during the *Carrington Event* of 1859.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Explorer said:


> Will those missiles get up to the stratosphere and inland 1500 miles? If not then you don't have a effect EMP. That still begs the question of not knowing who is that attacker, still only two possible countries.


Does it really have to go 1500 miles inland? Even if it only affected the east coast it would impact a huge portion of our population.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

There's a lot of variables involved. Neither China nor Russia who have the knowledge to do something like that are likely to do so. Our submarine based deterrent still works. That leaves either North Korea or Iran. North Korea as a nation is very poor. They have nothing to gain by attacking us. Nor do either they or Iran have the capability.

I believe a more likely possibility is a rogue detonation of a nuclear weapon in a city like New York. That would devastate our economy. While many believe we would detect and block such an attempt, I think at least one undetectable delivery method is possible.

That leaves Iran as one potential culprit. While we may be the Great Satan, The ayatollahs are just as greedy as some of our worst examples. They have amassed a fortune and a comfy life style. I doubt they will give that up just like the current North Korean head dufus.

Pakistan has been the source of clandestine nuclear assistance in the past. Rumors say that Saudi Arabia will buy nuclear weapons from Pakistan at some point if Iran continues their development effort,

A real danger is that a rogue group will obtain a weapon. ISIS said they were in the market for one. The price tag was said to be one billion dollars.

With the huge drop in oil prices and the oncoming economic turmoil for the Saudis, it's hard to say what will happen.

The sure bet is that at some point the Earth will be in the path of another flare similar to the one that produced the Carrington event. In that case society will revert back to the eighteen hundreds. 

Following is a link to a wikipedia article on EMPs if you want to explore further.

The most interesting point in that article is the danger to solar panels. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

terri9630 said:


> Does it really have to go 1500 miles inland? Even if it only affected the east coast it would impact a huge portion of our population.


No, up 100 to 150 miles above DC would do that, probably a ICBM. Remember a EMP device is a line of sight weapon. It really doesn't matter where one sets it off as the perp is committing suicide as the are only two countries capable of doing this and there would be a massive retaliation. Also to cover a very large area one is talking about a device in at least the 100 megaton range and there only two countries have proven capability, Russia and the US for one this size. It is not a trivial action using a plutonium nuclear bomb to trigger another larger plutonium bomb thus creating a hydrogen bomb.

A big risk for a theoretical result as to the damage that will occur.


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## farmsteader6 (Dec 19, 2014)

These terrorist cells have become so popular these days that i think the days of countries bombing each other are a thing of the past. Seems like countries have their little pet terrorist henchmen to do all their dirty work while they play the denial game. 

Fox news showed a headline today from a UN report that 35 global terrorist groups have pledged their allegiance to ISIS making them the largest, the richest and most influential terrorist organization in the world. 

Some JV team!!!!


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## DryHeat (Nov 11, 2010)

> the hydrogen bomb that is capable of producing a large scale EMP


I'm certain I've read that smaller and simpler fission devices are what will generate the most intense and damaging emp effect. I seem to recall that the composition of alloys in the shell of the weapon is what needs to be tweaked some for maximum effect. If I recall that correctly, NK doesn't have to develop fusion weapons to be a serious emp threat, they just have to have that delivery system up to effective altitude, plus offshore launch capability. Starfish Prime was a thermonuclear test, true, but evidently that design wouldn't be necessary or even optimal. Agreed a Carrington Event solar cme would be an utter disaster; we need to have a strategic inventory of backup transformers at the very least.


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## illinoisguy (Sep 4, 2011)

An EMP by larger nations such as Russia or China and a host of other nations would wreak havoc on their own economies. Those capable of doing it would only be hurting themselves.

The missile would also have to enter our airspace at high altitudes to be effective. While I don't discount an EMP, it is way down on my list of why I prep.


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## MattB4 (Jan 3, 2016)

DryHeat said:


> I'm certain I've read that smaller and simpler fission devices are what will generate the most intense and damaging emp effect. ...


You have probably read such speculation but there is no experimental proof that a small fission device can produce a energetic enough of a EMP to do much damage. It is the province of fiction writers and groups seeking money from the government for dubious prevention methods.


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## DryHeat (Nov 11, 2010)

From Wikipedia,


> Thermonuclear weapons are also less efficient at producing EMP because the first stage can pre-ionize the air[33] which becomes conductive and hence rapidly shorts out the Compton currents generated by the fusion stage. Hence, small pure fission weapons with thin cases are far more efficient at causing EMP than most megaton bombs. This analysis, however, only applies to the fast E1 and E2 components of nuclear EMP. The geomagnetic storm-like E3 component of nuclear EMP is more closely proportional to the total energy yield of the weapon.[34]


 I probably should have said fission devices are *much more efficient* than are thermonuclear ones so there's likely "more emp bang for buck" in the E1 and E2 (computer-damaging) components in those devices. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse Yeah, yeah, it's Wikipedia so YMMV, for sure. This is classified stuff, after all.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

Sure, Wikipedia publishes classified nuclear bomb info. NOT. More like BS.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...Code=as2&tag=paspr-20&linkId=LLHMURQ3FOC3T4MV


*Lights Out: A Cyberattack, A Nation Unprepared, Surviving the Aftermath*




> In this New York Times bestselling investigation, Ted Koppel reveals that a major cyberattack on America&#8217;s power grid is not only possible but likely, that it would be devastating, and that the United States is shockingly unprepared.



I thought that this book may be of interest to people who have read this thread.


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## Canyonero (Jan 20, 2016)

I don't believe in it. I did, however, pick up a couple of extra cans of chili when I was shopping today.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Sourdough said:


> Likely the hugest problem with wide spread grid down, will be the cooling pools for spent fuel rods at the nuclear reactor sites.


That is probably true. If you live within 50 miles of a nuclear power plant however the China Syndrome potential of the functioning reactors would basically render concern moot and the old Sioux adage "This is a good day to die" would be most appropriate for the occasion.

Technology is a wonderful thing______________until it exceeds the capacity of feasible humanly controlled safety procedures.

All any of us can do is live the life we prefer as comfortably as we can until we live no longer.


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