# Campaign Zero



## Patchouli

In one of the threads below Yvonne's Hubby asked me what I thought the real problem was when it comes to the current state of police and citizens in this country. The number one problem in my opinion is that police are killing citizens as a first resort rather than a last one. This campaign aims to end that and I think their ideas are sound. Crime has been on a steady decrease for a long while now. So have police deaths in the line of duty. And yet citizen deaths are on the rise. That has to stop. 

*What is Campaign Zero?*










http://www.vox.com/2015/8/21/9188729/police-black-lives-matter-campaign-zero


----------



## arabian knight

BLM is racism at its Worse~! This war on cops HAS to Stop and Lock a few up behind Bars and Throw away the key for awhile while the think it over how horrible it is to do all this damage to the people in blue.


----------



## gibbsgirl

One relevant factor IMO is that today's police forces resemble more of a domestic military org than a local public service agency.

My kids watched some of the old police academy movies a while back. Even the older ones noticed how cops today frequently look more like that masterchief from halo than even the crazy extreme tackleberry character back then.

Clothes make the man.

I do believe that how cops dress and equipment they are carrying now creates a combat zone mentality that is not beneficial to them nor much of the public they encounter.


----------



## arabian knight

*When Will the &#8216;silent majority&#8217; speak out?*


> The calls for the killings of whites and police officers and the viewing of whites such as Parker being racist are not laws that can be repealed by a new president and a new Congress. If nothing is done to counter these movements, these types of killings will go on and on.
> 
> The left, as shown in this Washington Post article, are endeavouring to control the language as they always do, by preventing the term &#8220;the silent majority&#8221; from being used because it&#8217;s racist.
> 
> DA Anderson is correct; the silent majority must rise up to counter the war on police and movements like Black Lives Matter and their cheerleaders in the Democrat Party. If they do not, the United States will be forever doomed. It is time for Americans to say enough is enough.


http://canadafreepress.com/article/74893


----------



## cfuhrer

gibbsgirl said:


> I do believe that how cops dress and equipment they are carrying now creates a combat zone mentality that is not beneficial to them nor much of the public they encounter.


I don't disagree. But, I think this is sort of a chicken-egg issue. Which came first the body armor or the attitude that a cop doing his job was fair target?


----------



## gibbsgirl

I think a big turning point was the north Hollywood bank shootout. But, I may be misinterpreting that because it was in my neighborhood, so obviously where I was at it was major news and very much a catalyst in the debate to change how lapd was armed.


----------



## kasilofhome

gibbsgirl said:


> I think a big turning point was the north Hollywood bank shootout. But, I may be misinterpreting that because it was in my neighborhood, so obviously where I was at it was major news and very much a catalyst in the debate to change how lapd was armed.


They were sitting ducks... that was a pivotal event....


----------



## gibbsgirl

Funny thing is they really weren't sitting ducks.

Communication simply was not as instant and flawless as people imagine.

Also, when your peeps are covered in as much bullet proof wear as those two were, well it takes a lot of shooting or rather at least some serious marksmanship to have an effect.

Also, lapd was saved by guess who.... The 2nd amendment loving local gun dealer across the way who literally had his people unloading their inventory of ammo and firearms to every cop they could get into their store.

Changing our whole country's police force the into a federal miltariry force to be sure they're always ready to take out the few extreme bad guys like those to is ridiculous to me. But then again, I also think it's obscene to see people working to turn out schools into locked down fortresses and treating all our students like prisoners with no rights. It creates a fearful environment where the students act guilty and are always wondering when someone will snap, instead of a community environment where they can have so many exciting things happening that there is simply little room for most students to become so disenfranchised.

My thoughts anyway.


----------



## Trixie

I read the article and there isn't much to disagree with - of course, it will depend on the implementation of those ideas. I suspect that's the rub.

Now I do have a problem with some of the first one.

************Campaign Zero proposes ending this type of policing by decriminalizing or deprioritizing public alcohol consumption, marijuana possession, disorderly conduct, trespassing, loitering, disturbing the peace, and spitting, as well as ending racial profiling and establishing mental health response teams that are better equipped to deal with mental health crises (which can result in, for example, disorderly conduct) than police.*******

I'm OK with ending racial profiling - if that means racial targeting. If someone knocks over a convenience store and the owners says it is a black man, I don't think they should stop white people - just to be sure they aren't 'profiling'.

I'm not against legalizing marijuana. I just think there should be stiff penalties for selling or allowing minors to get it. Also, I think there should be penalties if driving while under the influence or causing damage under the influence.

As far as " disorderly conduct, trespassing, loitering, disturbing the peace", I don't think that should be allowed. When someone asked how this country could be turned into a third world country - I think ignoring that kind of behavior is a good way. Spitting - depends on the circumstances. 

I do think allowing people to be disorderly and disrespect others and other's property could very well lead to worse crimes.


----------



## Evons hubby

So, I haven't been keeping up with all the investigations involving these cops killing civilians cases. Does anyone have info on how many cops have been found guilty of wrong doing, or the flip side, how many have been exonerated? I think that might be a good starting point. One thing I do know is that a cop treads in dangerous territory every time they go to work to protect and serve the decent law abiding citizens from those who would do us harm. I also know the cops have rules they are required to go by, haven't heard of the bad guys playing by any rules. I also haven't heard about cops walking up behind anyone and shooting them in the head with no previous association of any kind. The only shootings by cops I have heard of at this point have involved some form of altercation or resistance by the suspect (criminal) prior to the shooting.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Honestly, I have a very low opinion of most cops. But, its well earned from some repeated truly frightening encounters with them over the years. And, I've never been arrested or anything. I know my encounters still pale in comparison to many other folks though if for no one ther reason than none of them have been fatal.

I don't think departments should do in-house investigations into their own officers misconduct. That's as ineffective in my mind as asking my kids to honestly assess and narc or each other.

I do not disagree with you on the concept though of a cop doing a dangerous job.

But, I think for the public to believe those stats, the investigation processes and reporting processes for those stats need to change.

I also think that the clothing and equipment issue would help change the public's view on that. If cops looked and acted more like publib servants, they might more easily get a response from the public or support like say firefighters do. But, they look like military troops very often these days. And, people don't think of soldiers the same way. Soldiers are people who voluntarily gave chosen to defend and engage in war and killing and conquering. That generates a very different image and response for most folks IMO.


----------



## Shrek

A contributing factor from the suspect side of the situation is that in this century more suspects choose to attempt to debate with officers attempting to detain/arrest them more often rather than being detained and in the wise words of my father, sit on their butts and keep their mouth shut until they make their phone call.

The few times my friends and I were detained by the police or busted for misdemeanor possession of liquor none of us were ever handcuffed and there were both whites and blacks in the group I beer partied with.

Of course we all followed the LEOs instructions and sat on our butts and kept our mouths shut until we got our phone calls. We did not try to debate with the men with the guns and badges and we all remembered the song "I fought the law and the law won" because as underage drinkers in a dry county , we all knew we had been caught fair and square.

Years later watching episodes of COPS, I often found myself wondering when did folks not classy enough to wear a shirt in public decide that they could back talk when a gun or Taser was aimed at them and they were usually outnumbered at least two to one. :shrug:

COPS, the instructional video series on how not to be a criminal sociopath.


----------



## Trixie

gibbsgirl said:


> Honestly, I have a very low opinion of most cops. But, its well earned from some repeated truly frightening encounters with them over the years. And, I've never been arrested or anything. I know my encounters still pale in comparison to many other folks though if for no one ther reason than none of them have been fatal.
> 
> I don't think departments should do in-house investigations into their own officers misconduct. That's as ineffective in my mind as asking my kids to honestly assess and narc or each other.
> 
> I do not disagree with you on the concept though of a cop doing a dangerous job.
> 
> But, I think for the public to believe those stats, the investigation processes and reporting processes for those stats need to change.
> 
> I also think that the clothing and equipment issue would help change the public's view on that. If cops looked and acted more like publib servants, they might more easily get a response from the public or support like say firefighters do. But, they look like military troops very often these days. And, people don't think of soldiers the same way. Soldiers are people who voluntarily gave chosen to defend and engage in war and killing and conquering. That generates a very different image and response for most folks IMO.


I agree on the idea that police should look like police and not combat soldiers. It's something that has bothered me.

Only once was a frightened when we were stopped. 

Once some years ago, our daughter needed a car and we needed another second car. We saw an ad for used cars in the Dallas paper. We bought her a little Nissan and we bought a station wagon, both at a good price.

She lived in Arizona at the time and was constantly stopped by the police. Of course, she was a cute girl in a little red car. 

About every 3rd time we went on the highway we got stopped for something. One time when my husband asked why he was topped, the policeman said speeding. My husband asked how fast and the policeman said, 'About 71'. It was a 70 mph zone.

One night we were coming back from a wedding in Ft. Worth. When we get to go to the big city, we like to check out the glitzy grocery stores - or we used to. We had stopped at a couple and bought quite a few bags of groceries. 

We were stopped on a pretty lonely stretch of highway at about 1 in the morning. It was two highway patrol. One stayed just outside the lights, I could see, though, he had his hand on his gun. The other shined lights in our faces, all around the back of the car. He asked us where we were going, where had we been, what was in the sacks, why we were out so late. Things that were none of his business. We didn't get a ticket - but I was nervous.

Someone finally told us the cars we bought were probably drug confiscations and had some like of trackers had been put on them.


----------



## kasilofhome

I was frustrated over getting pullover for having pulled over to deal with a call.

A cop had been behind me for 15 miles no big. I made a turn and signal pulled over dealt with a quick one sentence call. Pulled out the headed home.. Well the cop pull over I passed he pulled out and flashed his lights..

Thought it was as suspicious behavior on my part. 

Less than a month later ... a cop with the same name was shot at while pulling someone over.

I know the cop did have his gun handy for me. He was accretive with me ... wanted the regular Papers... asked about my e vaper. I was not happy.. what am I the only one who pulls over to use the phone. I hope not.


----------



## Fennick

Trixie said:


> ..... As far as " disorderly conduct, trespassing, loitering, disturbing the peace", I don't think that should be allowed. *When someone asked how this country could be turned into a third world country - I think ignoring that kind of behavior is a good way.* Spitting - depends on the circumstances.
> 
> I do think allowing people to be disorderly and disrespect others and other's property could very well *lead to worse crimes*.


I fully agree with your whole post. As to the quoted part of it above - if that kind of bad behaviour is ignored or not dealt with by the police and law it does lead to much worse crimes, including murder. It's just not possible for civilians to ignore it. It leads to what's called *vigilante justice*, enacted by normally good, orderly, law abiding citizens who've reached the end of their tether and become desperate because of being abused by disorderly people. So if they can't resort to the law to deal with it they go above the law and take the law into their own hands. Usually violently and exacting a vengeful justice much worse than what would have happened if it had been dealt with by the law. I've seen it happen on more than one occasion. If it's allowed to continue you end up with an uncivilized, anarchic society.


----------



## gibbsgirl

See I really think we've over criminalized life. And, the really bad part is that once you're a "criminal" nowadays that's a very Perm many life altering status for most.

Also, I think that the little things are mainly problems nowadays because people gave him en conditioned to believe they are allowed no response other than call 911.

Remember, when seconds count, the cops are only minutes away.

The solution to little things is to stop average citizens from having to worry they will be criminally or civilly liable for standing up for themselves to many if these little crimes and nuisances. Those who are being affected are truly the only ones who can effectively resolve these issues. We can't police enforce our way out of every little thing. That's just not realistic IMO.


----------



## Fennick

How do you define a little nuisance problem vs. a big nuisance problem?

Let me give you an example. How about the HT member's nuisance problem with the peeper repeatedly getting his jollies off in her yard in front of the windows at her house and the police not being able to be proactive enough about it to stop the peeper? Would you say that's a little problem or a big problem? What would you do about it if it was your problem? What would your neighbourhood do about it?


----------



## gibbsgirl

Fennick said:


> How do you define a little nuisance problem vs. a big nuisance problem?
> 
> Let me give you an example. How about Onebizebee's nuisance problem with the peeper repeatedly getting his jollies off in her yard in front of the windows at her house and the police not being able to be proactive enough about it to stop the peeper? Would you say that's a little problem or a big problem? What would you do about it if it was your problem?


I think onebizebee should be free from liability for doing whatever she needs to to get the person gone. Not rely on police to show up and get the person.

When people realiz that they are truly a guest on other people's private property who do not have a right to be there, and that aother people have a right to confront them, they are less likely to take advantage.

Victimless crimes are little problems in my mind, and there are many of those.

I guess I just see the problems as similar to how the "antibullying" policies of late have not seemed to fixed bullying and arguably have created more bullying. I'm all for trying to end kids bullying. But, prosecuting all kids involved for verbal and physical confrontations under a zero tolerance policy isn't a good choice IMO. Sometimes kids need to and/or are going to get into it with one another. And, sometimes that needs to happen to establish healthy lasting boundaries.

adults aren't always that different. Sometimes when people have a blow up at each other it blows off steam and they figure out a way to peacefully co-exist and where everybody's limits are.

It's not perfect, but humanity never will be. And, I think it's unrealistic to pretend hiring mo re cops is the answer because once we have sufficient numbers of cops, it will all suddenly be well in hand.

Kind of like how sometimes the uber rich have tons of staff to assist childrrn. Cooks, tutors, drivers, athletic trainers 24 nanny teams assigned to each individual child, etc. But, after all that somehow it hasn',t guaranteed their kids turned out even though remotely "perfect" or unscathed by life.


----------



## Fennick

GG, this isn't an attack on you but I have to be honest with you, I don't think you're being very realistic. To me your responses make you sound like somebody who has led a sheltered, protected life and never had to deal all by yourself alone with real criminal behaviours enacted against you.


----------



## farmrbrown

Fennick said:


> GG, this isn't an attack on you but I have to be honest with you, I don't think you're being very realistic. To me your responses make you sound like somebody who has led a sheltered, protected life and never had to deal all by yourself alone with real criminal behaviours enacted against you.


I got the opposite impression.
Nowadays people call 911 at the drop of a hat. People also pull out guns when a horn is honked at them too, so I guess it cuts both ways.

I guess it boils down to when do you NEED the police to come to your rescue?
For some of us it's seldom if ever, for those that can't solve the simplest of disputes without them, that has led to some of the overreactions we've seen on a daily basis.
Calling the cops because your neighbor has a BBQ? Or his dog is barking? Or her kids are playing in a park by themselves?
Back when my old man was alive he'd have asked, "Is your head screwed on right, son?"

The peeping Tom thread was a good example to bring up.
That IS a good time to call the cops. But if they don't want to do the job that they are paid to do, then don't bother coming out when I do it for you, just call the clean up crew and get the mess outta my yard.
Some of us know right from wrong, safety from danger. The others can't seem to learn how to cross the street without being hit.


----------



## Wolf mom

What bunch of carp! How one sided. 

What about blacks killing blacks? What about Black and Brown and Asian gang warfare against everyone that's not talked about today. 

EVERYONE has to take responsibility for the state our Nation is in today.


----------



## gapeach

gibbsgirl said:


> One relevant factor IMO is that today's police forces resemble more of a domestic military org than a local public service agency.
> 
> My kids watched some of the old police academy movies a while back. Even the older ones noticed how cops today frequently look more like that masterchief from halo than even the crazy extreme tackleberry character back then.
> 
> Clothes make the man.
> 
> I do believe that how cops dress and equipment they are carrying now creates a combat zone mentality that is not beneficial to them nor much of the public they encounter.


I agree with you. I have nothing but good things to say about the policeman who comes by my house a couple of times during the daylight hours just checking to make sure everything is ok in our neighborhood. They drive by at night too. They have started wearing khaki pants and navy blue polo type shirts, with their badges on the pocket. They look so nice but I would rather see a policeman wear a uniform too.


----------



## Shrek

gibbsgirl said:


> One relevant factor IMO is that today's police forces resemble more of a domestic military org than a local public service agency.
> 
> My kids watched some of the old police academy movies a while back. Even the older ones noticed how cops today frequently look more like that masterchief from halo than even the crazy extreme tackleberry character back then.
> 
> Clothes make the man.
> 
> I do believe that how cops dress and equipment they are carrying now creates a combat zone mentality that is not beneficial to them nor much of the public they encounter.


 Tell that to the family of the Stetson hat, slacks and western boots uniform wearing deputy murdered in Houston.


----------



## 7thswan

I don't have a problem with Cops being Cops and all the gear they want/need to wear. I'd a total idiot to fear what a Cop wears, same mindset as some creep rapeing a woman because her skirt is short. Personal responsibility People, grow up. Cops make mistakes just like everyone else and I'm sure not going to accept a bunch of crooked politicans to change things up.


----------



## Cornhusker

The more people shoot at cops, the more likely the cops are going to shoot first at any behavior that seems threatening.
Don't threaten or attack cops, you won't get shot.
I've been cuffed and stuffed, searched, frisked, tackled, sat on, stood on and been surrounded by guns pointing at my head. I've had my car impounded, beer confiscated, car tossed, been to court, paid fines and once, I got thrown out of jail because they got tired of listening to me.
Eventually, I learned that cops are just doing their job, and at the end of the day they just want to go home to their families, just like any other working person.
Now we have Obama's thugs calling for the death of cops.
I'd be ready to shoot if I was a cop.


----------



## MO_cows

Now some of the action points make sense, especially the body cams for police officers and state-level investigations to bypass the sometimes cozy realationships with local police and prosecuters. However number one is just another way to say, when all else fails, lower your standards.

_*End broken windows policing**.* This refers to a style of policing that goes after minor crimes and activities, based on the notion that letting minor crimes go unaddressed can foster and lead to even worse crimes in a community. In practice, this tactic has disproportionately impacted minority Americans &#8212; in New York City, the vast majority of stops in 2012 were of black or Hispanic people. Campaign Zero proposes ending this type of policing by decriminalizing or deprioritizing public alcohol consumption, marijuana possession, disorderly conduct, trespassing, loitering, disturbing the peace, and spitting, as well as ending racial profiling and establishing mental health response teams that are better equipped to deal with mental health crises (which can result in, for example, disorderly conduct) than police.

_I don't think public intoxication in particular is something to look the other way. People staggering around drunk or stoned are a danger to themselves and others. Whether it's a posh suburb or the inner city, there is a minimum standard of behavior that needs to be upheld. If you ignore trespassing and vandalism because it's a minority neighborhood, you are setting people up to fail when they do make it out of that "hood". 

We do need to march on with the decriminalization of marijuana, I 100% agree with that.


----------



## Oxankle

Strange;reading this I see so much resentment, anger even, directed at the police. How is it that I have lived so long--I'll be 84 this month, and have dealt with police since I was a kid. Even when I yelled "cops eat...." at a carload of them they did not beat the hell out of me--probably should have. I've been pulled over for bad lights, for speeding, for improper turns. I've had them out for burglary, for emergency calls, escorts to the hospital. 

Never once was one of them disrespectful or abusive. How is it that so many of you find them hard to deal with? 

I have an opinion: Police, like accountants and lawyers, doctors and carpenters, develop a nose for their trade After a time they get an instinctive "feel" for the situations they face. Whenever they encounter a situation that puts them on alert they become defensive, careful, thorough. Their attitude changes from casual to "on guard" and any "attitude" from the subject of their interest is going to make the encounter worse. 

I once found a stocking full of what I thought was marijuana seed hidden in a grape arbor when I bought a home. I took it to the police, asked that they have the state do a flyover when the plane came around. From that day on I was known to the sheriff's office there and got along just fine. 

Turned around in a drug dealer's drive way, was followed and stopped by a squad car watching the place. When the office came up he recognized me. I explained that I had promised my wife ice cream after church and he bent over laughing. Said he'd been watching that place all evening. 

I just do not understand all the gripes. The police have to deal with unpleasant people and unpleasant situations day after day. Small wonder they have sour dispositions when given "attitude".


----------



## Evons hubby

farmrbrown said:


> I got the opposite impression.
> Nowadays people call 911 at the drop of a hat. People also pull out guns when a horn is honked at them too, so I guess it cuts both ways.
> 
> I guess it boils down to when do you NEED the police to come to your rescue?
> For some of us it's seldom if ever, for those that can't solve the simplest of disputes without them, that has led to some of the overreactions we've seen on a daily basis.
> Calling the cops because your neighbor has a BBQ? Or his dog is barking? Or her kids are playing in a park by themselves?
> Back when my old man was alive he'd have asked, "Is your head screwed on right, son?"
> 
> The peeping Tom thread was a good example to bring up.
> That IS a good time to call the cops. * But if they don't want to do the job that they are paid to do, then don't bother coming out when I do it for you, just call the clean up crew and get the mess outta my yard.*
> Some of us know right from wrong, safety from danger. The others can't seem to learn how to cross the street without being hit.


funny you bring this up. Years ago we had a regular old fashioned shoot out going on between two family's. When someone called the sheriff he wanted to know who was involved, as soon as he got the names of the families he responded with,"I see, I don't get paid enough to get mixed up with that bunch, let me know when it's over and I will come out and pick up the bodies."


----------



## AmericanStand

kasilofhome said:


> They were sitting ducks... that was a pivotal event....



No the lapd created the problem then used the problem to justify the results they wanted in the first place. 
It's a classic case of why the police shouldn't hire vets.


----------



## FarmerKat

Just out of curiosity, those of you who say that police look militarized and should dress differently, what do you want them to wear? Hawaiian shirts and flip flops? Should they still be able to carry a gun? 

What do police wear in your area? When DH goes to work he wears green pants, beige short sleeve shirt. On one side of the shirt is a Sheriff's star, on the other his name tag. He keeps a pen in his shirt pocket. He wears a duty belt - it has a gun, extra ammo, handcuffs, radio and multi purpose tool (it has pliers, knife, screwdriver, etc.) He also wears black boots. 

What should be removed from his uniform to make him look more friendly?


----------



## 7thswan

Gosh FarmerKat, what I good idea. I'll order me outfits for my Rottweilers, Hawaiian shirts and flip flops, while I'm at it I'll get me some of that stuff and coat all my handguns girly Pink..


----------



## Nevada

What this thread is really about is whether cops should be restrained with rules which are stronger than they already are. By the recent problems, they evidently do. Most cops are good and honorable civic employees, but there are rogue cops out there who need to be identified and stopped.

You can't arm a group of people and authorize them to use deadly force without guidelines, oversight and transparency. Clearly we don't have enough of those right now. Cops who knowingly cover up the wrongdoing of other cops need to be dealt with severely.


----------



## AmericanStand

FarmerKat said:


> What should be removed from his uniform to make him look more friendly?



THE GUN. 




Wouldn't hurt to get rid of the black boots either. Cowboy boots wouldn't look bad though.


----------



## AmericanStand

Shrek said:


> Tell that to the family of the Stetson hat, slacks and western boots uniform wearing deputy murdered in Houston.



He did say one factor. It's a long complicated history that got us to this place. 
I think the 55mph speed limit was a big factor. Same thing with drug laws. 
They helped train the average person to disregard the law.


----------



## cooper101

I was a cop in the Air Force for 5 years. Essentially, our training was that deadly force was authorized when the subject had the intent, opportunity, AND capability to cause great bodily harm (or worse). All 3 conditions had to exist. While I'm generally on the side of law enforcement and air force bases are a pretty tame environment, some of the recent shootings certainly seem to not meet that standard. I was involved in a couple incidents where we were able to de-escalate the situation where a couple of those conditions existed. It's not easy and not always possible, but there's too many videos lately where the cop is the one that escalated what was going on.


----------



## TripleD

AmericanStand said:


> THE GUN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't hurt to get rid of the black boots either. Cowboy boots wouldn't look bad though.


I don't mind the gun but the thigh rigs are way over the top. I only saw them on 2 U.S. Marshals I had to talk with though.


----------



## 7thswan

Putting Cops under the spotlight has done it's damage-which is to make Cops take 1 second of hesitation when encountering a possible criminal. That 1 second gets them Killed. I'm not for doing that to any one of them. There are better ways to approach issues like this, and changeing the rules is not an awnser for the short term problem we have right now.


----------



## gibbsgirl

FarmerKat said:


> Just out of curiosity, those of you who say that police look militarized and should dress differently, what do you want them to wear? Hawaiian shirts and flip flops? Should they still be able to carry a gun?
> 
> What do police wear in your area? When DH goes to work he wears green pants, beige short sleeve shirt. On one side of the shirt is a Sheriff's star, on the other his name tag. He keeps a pen in his shirt pocket. He wears a duty belt - it has a gun, extra ammo, handcuffs, radio and multi purpose tool (it has pliers, knife, screwdriver, etc.) He also wears black boots.
> 
> What should be removed from his uniform to make him look more friendly?


I don't think every cop dept looks that way yet. But, it does seem to be a trend. And, I don',t care for it. I think it makes a more negative impression on people.

BTW, please don't think that because I'm saying I have a low opinion of most cops, I believe that when a cop dies serving its anything other than tragic. I didn't say that because I was trying to bash cops. I just figured I'd be honest and not pretend that I don't carry around suspicions of cops when I see them. Most of them scare the heck outta me because I've met some who are definitely itely of the "i have a do anything I want and get away with it badge" persuasion.

I don't imagine they are all like that. And, I don't pretend there aren't plenty of rotten people who are not cops. But, I haven't figured out the magic formula yet for telling which ones I should fear from which ones I can trust are good, decent people just based on seeing them. So, it really unnerves me, cause who do you call for help when it's a bad cop?


----------



## gapeach

The policeman who comes around to my house told me that the biggest problem is having to make a decision in an instant. They have to make split second decisions, life and death situations. 

*âBlack Lives Matterâ Protester is Given Gun & Asked to Make Decisions Like a Cop Would. Surprise! Itâs Not That Easy.*



BY VICTORIA TAFT



http://www.ijreview.com/2015/01/229273-8-protester-walks-in-police-shoes-makes-statement-for-haters/


----------



## Patchouli

arabian knight said:


> BLM is racism at its Worse~! This war on cops HAS to Stop and Lock a few up behind Bars and Throw away the key for awhile while the think it over how horrible it is to do all this damage to the people in blue.


You just earned an ignore. You didn't even bother to address the question or the topic just tried to derail the conversation. So buh bye!


----------



## Evons hubby

AmericanStand said:


> THE GUN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't hurt to get rid of the black boots either. Cowboy boots wouldn't look bad though.


Yeppers, make them lose the guns, then they can carry juju beans to throw at the bad guys, who will still have their guns. That otter work out well :hohum:


----------



## Nevada

gapeach said:


> The policeman who comes around to my house told me that the biggest problem is having to make a decision in an instant. They have to make split second decisions, life and death situations.


OK, but I'm not sure of the point. I did the same as a firefighter.


----------



## simi-steading

I just posted this to another thread... What I see as happening, is we're seeing a war between the classes... It just happens that more black people are the poorest of our society, so they are a big part of who the war is against... The police are the front line for the rich... It's not the color of the skin I feel so much as it's the rich trying to control the poor.. I think people are trying to be blind to this all being a class war..

The real problem is it's become us against them... the have and the have nots... When you get a very solid divide between two classes of people, there are going to start being some serious clashes.. 

I watched a video yesterday of a cop shooting a guy with his hands up... I watched another a month ago of a cop shooting a guy running away from him.... It's a two way street here... 

Not all cops are bad, and not all criminals are worthy of being killed... 

Until we get the rich and the poor to start understanding each other, and working together to fix the problems of the country, this is only going to get worse...
__________________


----------



## Evons hubby

cooper101 said:


> I was a cop in the Air Force for 5 years. Essentially, our training was that deadly force was authorized when the subject had the intent, opportunity, AND capability to cause great bodily harm (or worse). All 3 conditions had to exist. While I'm generally on the side of law enforcement and air force bases are a pretty tame environment, some of the recent shootings certainly seem to not meet that standard. I was involved in a couple incidents where we were able to de-escalate the situation where a couple of those conditions existed. It's not easy and not always possible, but there's too many videos lately where the cop is the one that escalated what was going on.


Yep doing things like attempting to restrain a thug that resists arrest will escalate an otherwise peaceful getaway. I spose they could just smile and wave as the thug fades into the distance with a parting "have a nice day". That way nobody gets hurt..... Cept the thugs next victim.


----------



## 7thswan

simi-steading said:


> I watched a video yesterday of a cop shooting a guy with his hands up...
> 
> 
> Did the other video come out yet,the closer version? Because the one I saw,his hand was behind a pole when it made a downward movement,but on the first runthu it looked bad....


----------



## Nevada

7thswan said:


> Did the other video come out yet,the closer version?


Why would cops not want a video of an incident to be released?


----------



## Evons hubby

simi-steading said:


> I just posted this to another thread... What I see as happening, is we're seeing a war between the classes... It just happens that more black people are the poorest of our society, so they are a big part of who the war is against... The police are the front line for the rich... *It's not the color of the skin I feel so much as it's the rich trying to control the poor.. I think people are trying to be blind to this all being a class war..*
> 
> The real problem is it's become us against them... the have and the have nots... When you get a very solid divide between two classes of people, there are going to start being some serious clashes..
> 
> I watched a video yesterday of a cop shooting a guy with his hands up... I watched another a month ago of a cop shooting a guy running away from him.... It's a two way street here...
> 
> Not all cops are bad, and not all criminals are worthy of being killed...
> 
> Until we get the rich and the poor to start understanding each other, and working together to fix the problems of the country, this is only going to get worse...
> __________________


imagine that....the rich don't like being mugged, burglarized, raped and robbed by the poor! Those evil rich, all the time picking on poor folks, won't never let them have any fun, it's about time we send the ig:s home and let them poor folks teach them a good lesson about control!


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> So, I haven't been keeping up with all the investigations involving these cops killing civilians cases. Does anyone have info on how many cops have been found guilty of wrong doing, or the flip side, how many have been exonerated? I think that might be a good starting point. One thing I do know is that a cop treads in dangerous territory every time they go to work to protect and serve the decent law abiding citizens from those who would do us harm. I also know the cops have rules they are required to go by, haven't heard of the bad guys playing by any rules. I also haven't heard about cops walking up behind anyone and shooting them in the head with no previous association of any kind. The only shootings by cops I have heard of at this point have involved some form of altercation or resistance by the suspect (criminal) prior to the shooting.


They are almost always let off the hook for 4 reasons. Their dept stands behind them 100% and their fellow cops won't rat out anther cop. Unless there is bystander film of the the incident the whole thing gets covered up and no prosecution ever happens.

They are prosecuted by the local DA who is dependent on their police dept for arrests and info leading to convictions. So they always low ball the cases. They go to great lengths to get their boys exonerated. 

Cities have to pay through the nose if the police officer is at fault. So starting with the PD straight on up the line there is a heavy emphasis to cover up and exonerate. Otherwise it hurts everyone. 

Juries think like you and assume the bad guy deserved it and the police officer must have had a reason for what he did. 

2 cases that hopefully will help you see why I am so fired up here: 

Tamir Rice. 12 yo boy killed instantly by cops for playing in a park with a toy gun. He was shot within 2 seconds of the police officer pulling up to the park. He was left to bleed to death and no medical assistance was given. The city of Cleveland along with several other cities in America was under investigation for extreme violence used by their PD. 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/01/us/cleveland-responds-lawsuit-police-shooting-tamir-rice/

Walter Scott. Shot in NC by a police officer who claimed Mr. Scott struggled with him for his taser and he was in fear of his life so he shot him. His police dept stood by him. Until bystander video showed up and proved Officer Slager not only lied about the taser he planted false evidence to back up his story and shot the guy in the back and again rendered zero medical assistance. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/08/u...-charged-with-murder-in-black-mans-death.html

I could sit here all day and post stories like this.


----------



## 7thswan

Nevada said:


> Why would cops not want a video of an incident to be released?


I don't know. I do not know who the second video is from, but it was the Police offical that mentioned it.


----------



## simi-steading

Yvonne's hubby said:


> imagine that....the rich don't like being mugged, burglarized, raped and robbed by the poor! Those evil rich, all the time picking on poor folks, won't never let them have any fun, it's about time we send the ig:s home and let them poor folks teach them a good lesson about control!


In war, you don't deal with your problem, you eliminate it...


----------



## watcher

IMO, the biggest problem is that people have forgotten they have a responsibility for society and think the government should be the only ones to "police" it.


----------



## Nevada

watcher said:


> IMO, the biggest problem is that people have forgotten they have a responsibility for society and think the government should be the only ones to "police" it.


I'm not seeing that. Case in point; I have a Neighborhood Watch sign posted in front of my home.


----------



## 7thswan

Patchouli said:


> They are almost always let off the hook for 4 reasons. Their dept stands behind them 100% and their fellow cops won't rat out anther cop. Unless there is bystander film of the the incident the whole thing gets covered up and no prosecution ever happens.
> 
> They are prosecuted by the local DA who is dependent on their police dept for arrests and info leading to convictions. So they always low ball the cases. They go to great lengths to get their boys exonerated.
> 
> Cities have to pay through the nose if the police officer is at fault. So starting with the PD straight on up the line there is a heavy emphasis to cover up and exonerate. Otherwise it hurts everyone.
> 
> Juries think like you and assume the bad guy deserved it and the police officer must have had a reason for what he did.
> 
> 2 cases that hopefully will help you see why I am so fired up here:
> 
> Tamir Rice. 12 yo boy killed instantly by cops for playing in a park with a toy gun. He was shot within 2 seconds of the police officer pulling up to the park. He was left to bleed to death and no medical assistance was given. The city of Cleveland along with several other cities in America was under investigation for extreme violence used by their PD.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/01/us/cleveland-responds-lawsuit-police-shooting-tamir-rice/
> 
> Walter Scott. Shot in NC by a police officer who claimed Mr. Scott struggled with him for his taser and he was in fear of his life so he shot him. His police dept stood by him. Until bystander video showed up and proved Officer Slager not only lied about the taser he planted false evidence to back up his story and shot the guy in the back and again rendered zero medical assistance.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/08/u...-charged-with-murder-in-black-mans-death.html
> 
> I could sit here all day and post stories like this.


Get fired up all you want, until it goes to trial and all the evidance is out,what's the point. 
Are you worried these cases will turn out like the OJ trial?


----------



## Patchouli

Oxankle said:


> Strange;reading this I see so much resentment, anger even, directed at the police. How is it that I have lived so long--I'll be 84 this month, and have dealt with police since I was a kid. Even when I yelled "cops eat...." at a carload of them they did not beat the hell out of me--probably should have. I've been pulled over for bad lights, for speeding, for improper turns. I've had them out for burglary, for emergency calls, escorts to the hospital.
> 
> Never once was one of them disrespectful or abusive. How is it that so many of you find them hard to deal with?
> 
> I have an opinion: Police, like accountants and lawyers, doctors and carpenters, develop a nose for their trade After a time they get an instinctive "feel" for the situations they face. Whenever they encounter a situation that puts them on alert they become defensive, careful, thorough. Their attitude changes from casual to "on guard" and any "attitude" from the subject of their interest is going to make the encounter worse.
> 
> I once found a stocking full of what I thought was marijuana seed hidden in a grape arbor when I bought a home. I took it to the police, asked that they have the state do a flyover when the plane came around. From that day on I was known to the sheriff's office there and got along just fine.
> 
> Turned around in a drug dealer's drive way, was followed and stopped by a squad car watching the place. When the office came up he recognized me. I explained that I had promised my wife ice cream after church and he bent over laughing. Said he'd been watching that place all evening.
> 
> I just do not understand all the gripes. The police have to deal with unpleasant people and unpleasant situations day after day. Small wonder they have sour dispositions when given "attitude".


White man in Arkansas..... Nuff said. I could tell the same story as a white woman in rural Arkansas. The question is do your black friends tell the same story.


----------



## Evons hubby

Nevada said:


> OK, but I'm not sure of the point. I did the same as a firefighter.


As a firefighter how often did the people you were dealing with (trying to rescue) pull a gun and attempt to kill you! Or wrestle you to the ground and beat you with a burning piece of debri?


----------



## Patchouli

FarmerKat said:


> Just out of curiosity, those of you who say that police look militarized and should dress differently, what do you want them to wear? Hawaiian shirts and flip flops? Should they still be able to carry a gun?
> 
> What do police wear in your area? When DH goes to work he wears green pants, beige short sleeve shirt. On one side of the shirt is a Sheriff's star, on the other his name tag. He keeps a pen in his shirt pocket. He wears a duty belt - it has a gun, extra ammo, handcuffs, radio and multi purpose tool (it has pliers, knife, screwdriver, etc.) He also wears black boots.
> 
> What should be removed from his uniform to make him look more friendly?


Your husband's uniform sounds like a standard one for police officers. That's fine. He shouldn't look like my sons who are in the Army. If you can't tell your local PD from your local National Guard unit then you have a problem.


----------



## AmericanStand

gapeach said:


> The policeman who comes around to my house told me that the biggest problem is having to make a decision in an instant. They have to make split second decisions, life and death situations.
> 
> *âBlack Lives Matterâ Protester is Given Gun & Asked to Make Decisions Like a Cop Would. Surprise! Itâs Not That Easy.*
> 
> 
> 
> BY VICTORIA TAFT
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ijreview.com/2015/01/229273-8-protester-walks-in-police-shoes-makes-statement-for-haters/



That's part of the problem the shouldn't have to do make split second choices. 
If they do any doubt should always be resolved in the citizens favor.


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> White man in Arkansas..... Nuff said. I could tell the same story as a white woman in rural Arkansas. The question is do your black friends tell the same story.


I dunno about Arkansas but my black freinds tell pretty much the Same stories I do, but that might be because we were together when the mischief was taking place. eep:


----------



## cfuhrer

Patchouli said:


> White man in Arkansas..... Nuff said. I could tell the same story as a white woman in rural Arkansas. The question is do your black friends tell the same story.


Does ones skin color absolve them of personal responsibility in how they interact with law enforcement?


----------



## Patchouli

simi-steading said:


> I just posted this to another thread... What I see as happening, is we're seeing a war between the classes... It just happens that more black people are the poorest of our society, so they are a big part of who the war is against... The police are the front line for the rich... It's not the color of the skin I feel so much as it's the rich trying to control the poor.. I think people are trying to be blind to this all being a class war..
> 
> The real problem is it's become us against them... the have and the have nots... When you get a very solid divide between two classes of people, there are going to start being some serious clashes..
> 
> I watched a video yesterday of a cop shooting a guy with his hands up... I watched another a month ago of a cop shooting a guy running away from him.... It's a two way street here...
> 
> Not all cops are bad, and not all criminals are worthy of being killed...
> 
> Until we get the rich and the poor to start understanding each other, and working together to fix the problems of the country, this is only going to get worse...
> __________________



Thank you! This is it exactly! :goodjob:


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> Your husband's uniform sounds like a standard one for police officers. That's fine. He shouldn't look like my sons who are in the Army. If you can't tell your local PD from your local National Guard unit then you have a problem.


Just look for the badge, that way you can readily tell who is in a position of authority and jq public has granted permission to shoot if you fail to give them the respect they deserve.


----------



## Patchouli

cfuhrer said:


> Does ones skin color absolve them of personal responsibility in how they interact with law enforcement?


No but the difference here is not in how we as citizens act it is in how the police react to us. As a 47 yo white woman I pretty much get a pass no matter what I do. I could trot down the street with a gun, yell at a police officer and go on my merry way. I have a friend who is black who is exactly like me in every way except skin color and there is no way she would get away with what I could, no way. She is forced to live her life in worry over making a wrong move and getting into a bad situation. That's not right.


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Just look for the badge, that way you can readily tell who is in a position of authority and jq public has granted permission to shoot if you fail to give them the respect they deserve.


Did you read the stories I gave you?


----------



## cfuhrer

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Just look for the badge, that way you can readily tell who is in a position of authority and jq public has granted permission to shoot if you fail to give them the respect they deserve.


I want know where in the world a patrol/beat cop dresses like that. If the cops that wear those uniforms have been unleashed something has happened (hostage situation, bomb threat, etc.) that calls for big guns.


----------



## gapeach

AmericanStand said:


> That's part of the problem the shouldn't have to do make split second choices.
> If they do any doubt should always be resolved in the citizens favor.


If someone pulls a gun on him, what choice does a cop have?

If you watched that video, you saw that it is easier said than done.


----------



## Evons hubby

simi-steading said:


> In war, you don't deal with your problem, you eliminate it...


Ok so we send the ig:s on a permenant vacation and let the poor eliminate their problem (obviously the rich) war over. :hohum:


----------



## 7thswan

Patchouli said:


> No but the difference here is not in how we as citizens act it is in how the police react to us. As a 47 yo white woman I pretty much get a pass no matter what I do. I could trot down the street with a gun, yell at a police officer and go on my merry way. I have a friend who is black who is exactly like me in every way except skin color and there is no way she would get away with what I could, no way. She is forced to live her life in worry over making a wrong move and getting into a bad situation. That's not right.


Maybe it has something to do with percentages of which races are commiting crimes. I know more men are usual perps. over women in particular cases. 
Also the area. I'm pretty sure my N. American Indian husband has not been mistaken for a Mexican, but that might change if he was in say LA.


----------



## Nevada

Yvonne's hubby said:


> As a firefighter how often did the people you were dealing with (trying to rescue) pull a gun and attempt to kill you! Or wrestle you to the ground and beat you with a burning piece of debri?


Guns were an issue from time to time, but more often it was a decision to enter a dangerous place to begin treatment before extrication. For example, we can't always be sure of fire/explosion danger in a traffic collision, so entering a car to help a victim can be a risky decision. I made the decision to crawl in to assess & treat the victim a few times.


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> Did you read the stories I gave you?


Yes, I have never doubted there are a few bad apples in most any barrel. Weed those out, don't drown the rest while bobbing for the few. I have met a couple over the years here in my area.... They don't last very long. Our municipalities don't want to deal with lawsuits.


----------



## 7thswan

Nevada said:


> Guns were an issue from time to time, but more often it was a decision to enter a dangerous place to begin treatment before extrication. For example, we can't always be sure of fire/explosion danger in a traffic collision, so entering a car to help a victim can be a risky decision. I made the decision to crawl in to assess & treat the victim a few times.


 OT a bit, but since we are talking about instant decsions . Have you ever seen a firefighter back down because of clostraphobia?


----------



## Nevada

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yes, I have never doubted there are a few bad apples in most any barrel. Weed those out, don't drown the rest while bobbing for the few.


The process of weeding out bad apples is difficult, particularly when good cops back bad cops.


----------



## JeffreyD

gibbsgirl said:


> Funny thing is they really weren't sitting ducks.
> 
> Communication simply was not as instant and flawless as people imagine.
> 
> Also, when your peeps are covered in as much bullet proof wear as those two were, well it takes a lot of shooting or rather at least some serious marksmanship to have an effect.
> 
> Also, lapd was saved by guess who.... The 2nd amendment loving local gun dealer across the way who literally had his people unloading their inventory of ammo and firearms to every cop they could get into their store.
> 
> Changing our whole country's police force the into a federal miltariry force to be sure they're always ready to take out the few extreme bad guys like those to is ridiculous to me. But then again, I also think it's obscene to see people working to turn out schools into locked down fortresses and treating all our students like prisoners with no rights. It creates a fearful environment where the students act guilty and are always wondering when someone will snap, instead of a community environment where they can have so many exciting things happening that there is simply little room for most students to become so disenfranchised.
> 
> My thoughts anyway.


B&B gun sales in their fortress like store. Bought lots of stuff from them. They saved the government's butt, and in return the government ran them out of business.


----------



## Nevada

7thswan said:


> OT a bit, but since we are talking about instant decsions . Have you ever seen a firefighter back down because of clostraphobia?


Not that I know of. If a firefighter says a confined space seems dangerous then he's taken at his word. But I can't imagine a firefighter who had that problem making it through training.

We had a new trainee who seemed phobic of serious traffic accidents once. At least that's my theory. After refusing to help at an accident using flimsy excuses a few times we decided to drop him from training. Working traffic collisions was too big a part of the job to have someone who can't perform at the scene.


----------



## Evons hubby

Nevada said:


> Guns were an issue from time to time, but more often it was a decision to enter a dangerous place to begin treatment before extrication. For example, we can't always be sure of fire/explosion danger in a traffic collision, so entering a car to help a victim can be a risky decision. I made the decision to crawl in to assess & treat the victim a few times.


Guns were deliberated aimed at you? Or present and at risk of going off due to the fire? The victims you treated in the car? Did they ever attack you, try to cause you harm? There is a difference between placing yourself in harms way to assist others (which is commendable) and facing off with some idiot bent on doing you harm.


----------



## Evons hubby

Nevada said:


> The process of weeding out bad apples is difficult, particularly when good cops back bad cops.


Good cops will not back bad cops. If any cop lies or cheats, hides evidence to protect a bad cop, you have two bad cops. A good cop will nail a bad cops hide To the door to protect the dept.


----------



## MO_cows

Patchouli said:


> Your husband's uniform sounds like a standard one for police officers. That's fine. He shouldn't look like my sons who are in the Army. If you can't tell your local PD from your local National Guard unit then you have a problem.


That is a tactical team, the normal cops out on patrol are not suited up like that, nor armed like that. 

Military gear, gratis from Uncle Sam because it's surplus, can save the local taxpayers money. Our itty bitty "1 cop on duty at a time" police force got a frickin Humvee, but I ain't skeered! It sure came in handy after a tornado, the "flatproof" tires made it possible to patrol thru stuff their squad car couldn't begin to handle. Probably saved the town from some some stealing and looting. I guess to be PC I should say "unauthorized salvage".


----------



## Oxankle

_"Does ones skin color absolve them of personal responsibility in how they interact with law enforcement?_
No but the difference here is not in how we as citizens act it is in how the police react to us. As a 47 yo white woman I pretty much get a pass no matter what I do. I could trot down the street with a gun, yell at a police officer and go on my merry way."

Not in any town I've ever lived in. You carry and gun and yell at a police officer you'd better be prepared to drop the weapon and hit the ground spread-eagled, or have your insurance fully paid up.

It may be true that because of an officer's experience he might be more wary of a black than of you, but you had better not press your luck, Ma'am.


----------



## Nevada

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Guns were deliberated aimed at you?


Once. I was on a medical aid call and the victim pointed a gun at me when I entered the room. Fortunately he didn't really want to shoot me. I wasn't armed so there wasn't a lot I could do except assume he didn't want to hurt me and insist that he let me treat him. He was bleeding pretty badly from an arm wound. He let me treat him. The ambulance took him away.

I didn't make a big deal about the gun and assumed he wasn't charged. At least I was never asked about the incident by the police, and I was never called to testify. He was just having a bad day.


----------



## Nevada

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Good cops will not back bad cops. If any cop lies or cheats, hides evidence to protect a bad cop, you have two bad cops. A good cop will nail a bad cops hide To the door to protect the dept.


That's simply not the reality.


----------



## cooper101

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yep doing things like attempting to restrain a thug that resists arrest will escalate an otherwise peaceful getaway. I spose they could just smile and wave as the thug fades into the distance with a parting "have a nice day". That way nobody gets hurt..... Cept the thugs next victim.


I went back and read my post to see if that's what I said and I can't find any of those words, so not sure where you got that. I know that a position in the middle is anathema to this forum, so trying to have a rational discussion is difficult, but my point is that there are a lot of videos lately that show police exercising very bad judgment and people dying because of it. There are a lot more occasions every day where cops exercise very competent judgment, but those aren't very interesting and don't make good news. But, defending bad cops who don't do their jobs well does nothing for the good ones.


----------



## gapeach

It is breaking news now that a police cruiser has been fired on in Boston. The cruiser has caught on fire and that is all police are reporting at this time.


----------



## AmericanStand

Oxankle said:


> _"
> 
> Not in any town I've ever lived in. You carry and gun and yell at a police officer you'd better be prepared to drop the weapon and hit the ground spread-eagled, or have your insurance fully paid up.._


_


AAny cop that would react that way needs to be killed before he kills innocent person. 


Oxankle I think I see the problem you are apparently one of those people who reacts like a cowed puppy to police. A citizen shouldn't have to act like that but of course if you do I'm quite sure they react to you favorably.y_


----------



## cooper101

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Good cops will not back bad cops. If any cop lies or cheats, hides evidence to protect a bad cop, you have two bad cops. A good cop will nail a bad cops hide To the door to protect the dept.


 Wow. Just, wow.


----------



## where I want to

Nevada said:


> That's simply not the reality.


As most things that where there are politically appointed bosses, there is a long history of bosses holding on to all the credit if things go well and looking for a scapegoat when things go wrong. The policeman is uniquely positioned to be a scapegoat.
Police are by the nature of their work in a position where complaints abound, choices are made in a split second without being able to get enough information and rules are many and unreal. 
So it is any surprise that even the best of cops make wrong choices on occasion? Or that their fellow officers have a constant fear of being judged by idiots who don't understand what they do aligned with politicians who want to dump trouble elsewhere? And in the absence of trouble, simply ignore them.
Couple that with the fenzy of modern media where every fool can post his opinion in 30 seconds without bothered to research anything and the increasing violence of the public. 

Zero is a movement that could have a positive effect if, if it was coupled with a similar goal for educating the public. As it is, it is just silly wishful thinking of the bumper sticker wisdom level. It reminds me of the recent article I read on Google self driving cars. They keep getting into trouble because they are programmed to strictly follow the rules of the road when they operate in a world of humans who don't. It mentioned a problem with a car being stuck forever at an intersection because it was programmed to wait til all had come to a complete stop before advancing. Of course the humans only sort of followed the rules and there was never a time when all cars stopped completely.


----------



## cfuhrer

gapeach said:


> It is breaking news now that a police cruiser has been fired on in Boston. The cruiser has caught on fire and that is all police are reporting at this time.


Over the weekend a cruiser in Elko, NV was fired on, too. No more harm than being fired at, but it was still shot at.
http://m.elkodaily.com/news/elko-po...cle_a8554e79-0d7d-5cec-8e34-36d52005a50c.html


----------



## Nevada

cfuhrer said:


> Over the weekend a cruiser in Elko, NV was fired on, too.


Interesting. I used to live there. Elko is an extremely conservative place, always leaning strong-right in elections. I considered the community to be very supportive of the local police, fire, and public ambulance workers. I'm surprised to see that report.


----------



## gapeach

cfuhrer said:


> Over the weekend a cruiser in Elko, NV was fired on, too. No more harm than being fired at, but it was still shot at.
> http://m.elkodaily.com/news/elko-po...cle_a8554e79-0d7d-5cec-8e34-36d52005a50c.html


It is going to happen more and more as long as this hate group, BLM, are out there chanting about police deaths. It may be just a scare tactic but can turn into a murder or violence in a skinny minute.


----------



## cfuhrer

I want to take a minute and thank everyone participating. This thread could have easily devolved like some others recently have into a virtual shouting match and slander fest. We are on page five and it is still an open and civil exchange of ideas.

Thank you for the change of pace.


----------



## Evons hubby

cooper101 said:


> Wow. Just, wow.


What wow? I didn't say how many cops are good or bad, just pointed out the difference.


----------



## Nevada

gapeach said:


> It is going to happen more and more as long as this hate group, BLM, are out there chanting about police deaths. It may be just a scare tactic but can turn into a murder or violence in a skinny minute.


I think that people are beginning to understand that we've given a small group of people the authority to use deadly force with inadequate rules & oversight. I don't expect BLM to go away. Instead I expect reforms, which will most likely include a more well-defined description of police authority and increased oversight.


----------



## gapeach

Memphis, TN
*MPD cruiser shot at while on duty*
MEMPHIS, TN (WMC) -
*MPD patrol car riddled with bullets *
see picture...........
Bullets whizzed toward a Memphis Police Department patrol car Tuesday morning.
An officer was on patrol at the Peppertree Apartments on Graceland Drive in Whitehaven.
The officer said he heard several gunshots and realized the shots were aimed at him and his patrol car. Only one bullet hit the car; the officer was not injured.
The officer called for backup, and soon the apartment complex was filled with officers.
Tuesday morning, our crew saw a police crime scene van and several other police cars on the property.
Resident Eugene McDaniel said, "That's bad. I've got my little girl over here. And I don't feel like she's safe. I feel like I need to move or something."
more.....
http://www.kfvs12.com/story/29383737/shots-fired-at-mpd-patrol-car

That is some scary stuff.


----------



## Evons hubby

Nevada said:


> That's simply not the reality.


That is exactly the reality, just coz we don't hear much about the good ones don't mean they don't exist.


----------



## Nevada

Yvonne's hubby said:


> That is exactly the reality, just coz we don't hear much about the good ones don't mean they don't exist.


It's not about good or bad cops, it's about the police culture. They have to trust their lives with each other so living up to the culture is critical. What you don't understand is that refusing to lie to protect a fellow officer is a bigger deal than what the bad cop might have done.

If you can't get along within the police culture then you can't have a career in police work. Your career will end a lot sooner by not backing fellow officers than if you're a crooked cop.

Remember the North Charleston shooting of Walter Scott where the offending officer dropped the taser, and he didn't even try to conceal his activity from the other cop standing right in front of him. And the other cop didn't turn him in either. We only found out about it because the video surfaced. I'm confident that the knowledge of the dropped taser would have gone to the other cop's grave without video evidence. Keeping something like that to yourself is part of the police culture.


----------



## 7thswan

Nevada said:


> It's not about good or bad cops, it's about the police culture. They have to trust their lives with each other so living up to the culture is critical. What you don't understand is that refusing to lie to protect a fellow officer is a bigger deal than what the bad cop might have done.
> 
> If you can't get along within the police culture then you can't have a career in police work. Your career will end a lot sooner by not backing fellow officers than if you're a crooked cop.


Come on, there are far more criminals than bad Cops. That is what needs to be addressed.


----------



## Nevada

7thswan said:


> Come on, there are far more criminals than bad Cops. That is what needs to be addressed.


We just forget about the bad cop issue?


----------



## gapeach

It is all because of Obama and Holder.
*Are race relations really worse under President Obama?*

By Janell Ross August 4, 2015
In the months after Barack Obama was sworn in as the 44th president of the United States, 66 percent of Americans told the researchers behind the New York Times /CBS News poll that race relations in the United States were generally good.
Perhaps most notably, the long-standing gap between the share of white Americans and black Americans who felt this way narrowed in a way it hadn't since 1990. Race relations in America were good, and on this black-and-white America generally and pretty overwhelmingly agreed.
Whatever the heady admixture of ideas and emotions that produced that data, that picture of America in 2009 is now orphaned. *The latest New York Times/CBS News poll shows just 37 percent of all Americans describe race relations as generally good. (Accordingly, other polling in recent months has shown a majority of Americans believe race relations have gotten worse under the nation's first black president.)read much more.*
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...relations-really-worse-under-president-obama/

Obama's constant race-baiting, along with his AG, Sharpton, et al, has set this nation back 50 years.
It all started here:
Obama: Cambridge Cops "Acted Stupidly" In Prof. Gates Arrest 
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LucTPdK8VTc[/ame]
We saw things improve with race relations vastly until 2008, when we elected the worst president in US history. 
He was supposed to all but remove any racial tensions, but in reality, we have seen race relations regress back decades.
It's unfortunate that a political candidate and his party cannot win on their accomplishments, but must instead divide the masses using race, sex, religion, socio-economic status and false narratives in order to make people choose sides.


----------



## 7thswan

Nevada said:


> We just forget about the bad cop issue?


Didn't say that. What is happening right now is the wrong way. There are more than one way to skin a cat remember. Look what happened with Healthcare reform being shoved on us. We got a my way or the highway program from the gov. and that sucks. The lefty way sucks-it's called force or violence and I'm sick of it.


----------



## Nevada

7thswan said:


> Didn't say that. What is happening right now is the wrong way. There are more than one way to skin a cat remember. Look what happened with Healthcare reform being shoved on us. We got a my way or the highway program from the gov. and that sucks. The lefty way sucks-it's called force or violence and I'm sick of it.


I think you should prepare yourself for some kind of police reform.


----------



## wiscto

Stating the fact that we have a problem with our police in this country, and wanting to improve the interaction between ourselves and the police, is not the same thing as killing a policeman or even unfairly prosecuting one who did nothing wrong. It would be stupidity not to recognize our current problems. Civil forfeitures, forced entries into innocent peoples homes, cops who don't seem to understand what the rules really are even during minor traffic stops, illegal search and seizure, and yes...some of these shootings were murders. We can admit that we need changes without siding with the idiots who think all police are bad or that every shooting/arrest is unjustified.


----------



## 7thswan

Nevada said:


> I think you should prepare yourself for some kind of police reform.


I've prepared myself in 2007 for the takeover of our Country by a known communist. I'm not shocked in the least that the feds will attempt to take over our Police force. You think I forgot o's exact words on that?


----------



## Evons hubby

Nevada said:


> It's not about good or bad cops, it's about the police culture. They have to trust their lives with each other so living up to the culture is critical. What you don't understand is that refusing to lie to protect a fellow officer is a bigger deal than what the bad cop might have done.
> 
> If you can't get along within the police culture then you can't have a career in police work. Your career will end a lot sooner by not backing fellow officers than if you're a crooked cop.
> 
> Remember the North Charleston shooting of Walter Scott where the offending officer dropped the taser, and he didn't even try to conceal his activity from the other cop standing right in front of him. And the other cop didn't turn him in either. We only found out about it because the video surfaced. I'm confident that the knowledge of the dropped taser would have gone to the other cop's grave without video evidence. Keeping something like that to yourself is part of the police culture.


This sounds like you are agreeing wth me. Or are you saying the second cop who kept his mouth shut was a good cop? To me it sounds like two bad cops.


----------



## AmericanStand

gapeach said:


> It is going to happen more and more as long as this hate group, BLM, are out there chanting about police deaths. It may be just a scare tactic but can turn into a murder or violence in a skinny minute.



Nope elko is a place where the black lives matter movement doesn't mater. 
No support there at all so you are going to have to find something else to blame it on.


----------



## gapeach

Homeland Security alerts MPD about potential threat

Updated: Sep 02, 2015 5:03 PM EST
By WMCActionNews5.com Staff


*Homeland Security issued an alert via police radios about a threat made against Memphis police officers*.

The alert states that someone threatened to shoot a police officer in the area of 201 Poplar this afternoon. The alert later said the location had changed to the area of I-40 and I-240., but that threat was proven false. The alert remains active for 201 Poplar.

A representative for the Memphis Police Department said an anonymous called left a tip that an officer will be shot at 201 Poplar. Police were told to be vigilant.

"Our MPD Communications received information from an anonymous caller who advised a police officer would be shot today in the area of 201 Poplar of course we don't know at this time if it was a prank or if it's an actual true threat," said MPD spokespoerson Alyssa Moore.

The representative added that police don't know whether the call was a prank, but they are taking the threat seriously.

WMC Action News 5 is working to learn more information.

http://www.msnewsnow.com/story/29945276/homeland-security-alerts-mpd-about-potential-threat

Whether this threat is real or a prank but Homeland Security considers a prank same as a real threat.


Yes there are some bad apples in law enforcement. But these guys and ladies have families. Something has to be done.


----------



## arabian knight

7thswan said:


> I've prepared myself in 2007 for the takeover of our Country by a known communist. I'm not shocked in the least that the feds will attempt to take over our Police force. You think I forgot o's exact words on that?


 It sure is shocking how many seem to think Obama was correct when he said the police have to get better., No the don'y just weed out the bad ones but police conform into some other kind of force. NO WAY.
This BLM movement has to Stop they are nothing but a satanistic group of blacks that like nothing better to do then kill cops, and show the country how racist should be acting. Acting like the slobs they are.


----------



## AmericanStand

7thswan said:


> Come on, there are far more criminals than bad Cops. That is what needs to be addressed.



No way. There might be more criminals than cops but the cops need to be squeaky clean.


----------



## gapeach

AmericanStand said:


> Nope elko is a place where the black lives matter movement doesn't mater.
> No support there at all so you are going to have to find something else to blame it on.



Do you support the Black Lives Matter and their threats against police?


----------



## arabian knight

AmericanStand said:


> No way. There might be more criminals than cops but the cops need to be squeaky clean.


 More then ever in this day in age we need MORE like Sheriff Joe Arpiro ~!!!
More Tent Cities. I am very proud that I had the chance to vote him in. LOL


----------



## AmericanStand

I do think it should be PLM , poor lives matter. I think the poor are the cops real targets. 

When I go to meet my plane at a small town airport in my. $200 truck I'm often hassled but if I act like is not mine and point out my airplane I'm often offered a ride to town.


----------



## gibbsgirl

I don't trust many statistics because there's simply a lot of manipulations that can be done to prove something using them.

But, I do like what this article says because I think it's an important line of thought people should consider. Not saying any here have not considered it. Just sharing.

www.copblock.org/99550/how-many-bad-cops-what-impact/


----------



## AmericanStand

gapeach said:


> Do you support the Black Lives Matter and their threats against police?



Of course not. 
But it's irrelevant in a discussion of elko where the crime isn't likely to be related to BLM.


----------



## FarmerKat

AmericanStand said:


> THE GUN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't hurt to get rid of the black boots either. Cowboy boots wouldn't look bad though.


So how do you think a cop should respond to an armed robbery at a convenience store without firearms? Say, they the robbers are still holding store employees at gun point. A cop shows up with a bare hands and a small can of pepper spray. How should he handle the situation?


----------



## cfuhrer

AmericanStand said:


> Of course not.
> But it's irrelevant in a discussion of elko where the crime isn't likely to be related to BLM.


I hope it's not. But I'm having trouble overlooking the timing.


----------



## Evons hubby

FarmerKat said:


> So how do you think a cop should respond to an armed robbery at a convenience store without firearms? Say, they the robbers are still holding store employees at gun point. A cop shows up with a bare hands and a small can of pepper spray. How should he handle the situation?


Toss them some juju beans, that should distract them long enough to get a message to superman...... Then they'll be sorry!


----------



## Oxankle

American Stand: My guess is that you've had more experience with police than I, but if you think you can carry a weapon and yell at the police most any place in the southwest and not be challenged you are nuts. Unless that officer knows you personally and knows that you are a harmless, law-abiding citizen you will be stopped.

If you address the police as you address me you'll wind up with a knot on your head. We hire rough men to deal with people who flout the law. That is their business. When they encounter a wise-a.. who does not wish to obey a lawful order they tend to get testy. Now and then, like the rest of us, one of them loses his temper and makes a horrendous mistake. Again, like the rest of us, some become lawbreakers themselves.

Nothing is new; we have had law enforcement officers since man built the first town. They have always had to deal with the most angry, the most depraved, the most resentful, dangerous and violent part of the populace. No man can do that long and not be affected by it. Certainly they become unwilling to take a lot of snot off some half-witted lout. If you'll notice, very few of the people shot by police have been altar boys. In most cases we are better off without them.


----------



## where I want to

Nevada said:


> I think you should prepare yourself for some kind of police reform.


The nature of the reforms will be seriously inflenced by murder and other crime rates. In the end.


----------



## gapeach

gapeach said:


> It is going to happen more and more as long as this hate group, BLM, are out there chanting about police deaths. It may be just a scare tactic but can turn into a murder or violence in a skinny minute.


American Stand, I was not talking about it happening in Elko any more. I think you misunderstood me. No, I think it is going to be happening more and more thoughout the country just as it has today in Massachusetts and in Memphis. Homeland Security does take any kind of threat as domestic terrorism unless they have changed even that under the present administration.

These horrible people, BLM, are trying to terrorize cops. That is what it is all about. Anybody who is connected with George Soros is not up to any kind of good.


----------



## AmericanStand

FarmerKat said:


> So how do you think a cop should respond to an armed robbery at a convenience store without firearms? Say, they the robbers are still holding store employees at gun point. A cop shows up with a bare hands and a small can of pepper spray. How should he handle the situation?



That sounds plumb ignorant why would he do that ?


----------



## AmericanStand

I'm sorry Oxankle but I will not treat my servants as if they were my betters. 
Many men have died to insure that principle in this country and it's not a crime and for the cops to abuse me for it clearly shows them to be the criminals. 
This the reason for BLM. 
If I have said something offensive to you I'm am sorry I did not mean to offend.


----------



## gapeach

Not pointing any fingers here but there are some people who just do not like cops. I have no reason not to respect them and I do. I think that they are to be commended that they do such a hard job at such poor pay. They try to do the best job that they can to keep people safe. For sure, if you obey the law you should never have any problems with them. That is cops in general. Most of them are good guys.


----------



## FarmerKat

AmericanStand said:


> That sounds plumb ignorant why would he do that ?


I was following up on your post that cops should not have a gun to appear more friendly (at least that is the way I read your response ... maybe I was wrong???).


----------



## Cornhusker

Patchouli said:


> No but the difference here is not in how we as citizens act it is in how the police react to us. As a 47 yo white woman I pretty much get a pass no matter what I do. I could trot down the street with a gun, yell at a police officer and go on my merry way. I have a friend who is black who is exactly like me in every way except skin color and there is no way she would get away with what I could, no way. She is forced to live her life in worry over making a wrong move and getting into a bad situation. That's not right.


You blame the cops, but honestly, it all falls on the black people and their actions.
Personal responsibility is the key.
Own your actions, it's simple.


----------



## Deacon Mike

Cornhusker said:


> You blame the cops, but honestly, it all falls on the black people and their actions.
> Personal responsibility is the key.
> Own your actions, it's simple.


The black people? OMG, what a horrid statement. You really couldn't be more wrong.


----------



## Cornhusker

Nevada said:


> I think you should prepare yourself for some kind of police reform.


Yeah
Stop arresting blacks no matter what they do
That's what your idiot of a "president" is aiming for, and anybody who supports him is stupid as a waterheaded squirrel.


----------



## Cornhusker

Deacon Mike said:


> The black people? OMG, what a horrid statement. You really couldn't be more wrong.


So black people are not responsible for their own actions?


----------



## gibbsgirl

I believe part of the problem is the overcriminalizatipn of all kinds of things and the muddled understanding of law enforcement and the public of what is and is not illegal.

It leads to many bad interactions with law enforcement. Even people who aren't thugs regularly commit minor acts that are now illegal, and if law enforcement wants its not hard to find something to get people for.

Then, of course, there's all the arrests, tickets, etc that are bogus and don't stick or shouldn't stick. 

And, I still believe a part of the problem is there are not great systems in place for people to get help when there is a problem with a bad cop.

I've lived in some nice places and some not so nice places. Years and years ago I used to be absolutely fine with going wherever I wanted or needed to.

Then I decided it simply was not worth doing because my safety was endangered by being out unescorted at night. That decision was entirely based on repeated bad interactions with different cops at night in the nicer places.

I don't claim it's all cops or its everywhere. Just that there are very serious problems that need to be addressed, and not highly successful, wide spread solutions that have been developed or adopted yet.


----------



## Evons hubby

Deacon Mike said:


> The black people? OMG, what a horrid statement. You really couldn't be more wrong.


That is pretty bad. How about using the correct word.... Callem what they are...the criminals. Lots of good decent black people out there that are every bit as appalled by the criminal element as any of us white folk are.


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yes, I have never doubted there are a few bad apples in most any barrel. Weed those out, don't drown the rest while bobbing for the few. I have met a couple over the years here in my area.... They don't last very long. Our municipalities don't want to deal with lawsuits.


So how many stories do I have to give you to tip the balance in your mind? Because like I said I could do this all day. I wish I couldn't but there are piles of stories out there.


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Guns were deliberated aimed at you? Or present and at risk of going off due to the fire? The victims you treated in the car? Did they ever attack you, try to cause you harm? There is a difference between placing yourself in harms way to assist others (which is commendable) and facing off with some idiot bent on doing you harm.



EMTs run into violent people pretty routinely. Since firemen these days are first responders I would bet they do too.


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Good cops will not back bad cops. If any cop lies or cheats, hides evidence to protect a bad cop, you have two bad cops. A good cop will nail a bad cops hide To the door to protect the dept.


The evidence does not support that. Police departments always side with the cop. So do fellow police officers. It takes something outside the department either evidence or someone with political clout generally to get a cop brought up on any sort of charges. 

The psychology behind it is pretty basic: if we expose this guy we make all of us look bad. You see it everywhere. Churches do it, businesses do it, politicians do it, farmers at farmer's markets do it.


----------



## Patchouli

gibbsgirl said:


> I don't trust many statistics because there's simply a lot of manipulations that can be done to prove something using them.
> 
> But, I do like what this article says because I think it's an important line of thought people should consider. Not saying any here have not considered it. Just sharing.
> 
> www.copblock.org/99550/how-many-bad-cops-what-impact/


In case people didn't read your link which was excellent:


> Police watchdog groups like SouthEast Alabama CopBlock are often given this comment in various posts and articles in defense of cops. So how many are there? Often people will give estimates of what percentage of cops are good. We are usually given numbers like â75 to 85%â, â90%â or â99%â are good. Thatâs most of them! Great! Right?
> The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund estimates âThere are more than *900,000* sworn law enforcement officers now serving in the United Statesâ. 900,000. Keep that number in your head. Imagine 900,000 nurses in the US (not the actual number Iâm sure.) Now imagine 90% of them are good nurses and 10% became nurses in order to use that position to do others harm in some way. Are you comfortable in a nation with 90,000 nurses who want to do their patientsâ harm? Nurses who can kill you or a loved one and make it seem routine? What about 90,000 bad school teachers? 90,000 bad Doctors? 90,000 bad Fireman who create fires? Even 90,000 bad pest control guys who come into your house or apartment with your belongings and loved ones?
> *Can you think of ANY profession, where lives hang in the balance, that you would be comfortable with if there were only 90,000 in the US that are bad and wanted to use their positions to do you and your family harm? Of course not. Not when your families lives are directly impacted by whether or not they are good or bad.*


Definitely something to think about.


----------



## Patchouli

Cornhusker said:


> So black people are not responsible for their own actions?



Are you responsible for the actions of every white person in America? Should you be judged on the basis of the actions of every white person in America? No? Then black people shouldn't be judged that way either.


----------



## where I want to

AmericanStand said:


> I do think it should be PLM , poor lives matter. I think the poor are the cops real targets.
> 
> When I go to meet my plane at a small town airport in my. $200 truck I'm often hassled but if I act like is not mine and point out my airplane I'm often offered a ride to town.


You have said this before but from the time of my first car- a totalled VW Beetle with a chain holding the trunk closed and no bumper- to the one I have now- a 20 year old PC with a 2 ft long dent in the rear , I have never once been stopped. 
And the ones I have seen stopped by the police that not been wrecks either. 
I think you need to look more at why you get stopped.


----------



## where I want to

Patchouli said:


> Are you responsible for the actions of every white person in America? Should you be judged on the basis of the actions of every white person in America? No? Then black people shouldn't be judged that way either.


Has some on said a specific person is responsible for all other black people? The only thing I've read is complaints about behavior and words from those who were actually acting and speaking. 
The closest to holding an individual being blamed for other people's actions is your posts saying that people here can not complain about "black. Iives matter" rhetoric because there were white supremacists in existence.


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> So how many stories do I have to give you to tip the balance in your mind? Because like I said I could do this all day. I wish I couldn't but there are piles of stories out there.


I am sure you could do it all day, but why do you feel compelled to do that? It's not going to change the facts. Criminals are called criminals for a reason.... Most have no respect for themselves, much less for their fellow man, and certainly not for any authority figures. They abused their classmates in school and refused to accept any authority from teachers, principals or councillors. For whatever reason they seem to think the are above any of civilized societies rules or laws. They feel entitled to take others property, or simply destroy it for "kicks". They feel picked on when the law catches them red handed with stolen property in their possession and blame society for their fate. One of their main complaints today is that there are too many laws.... Making their lives miserable that are targeted unfairly at them. Nobody gave a rats pattootie who it was doing the mischief when those laws were written, they simply wanted it stopped. Nobody wants to live in fear of vandals, thieves, drug crazed idiots assaulting them or robbing them. Women would prefer to be able to walk down the street without fear of being raped. When these thugs take over an area they call it their turf. They have no qualms about doing grevious harm to anyone that threatens their control of their turf. They respect no one and are perfectly fine with killing anyone who gets in their way. I don't know about you but I think someone, in a lawful manner needs to teach these boils on the backside of humanity some basic manners. I believe this enough to be glad to pay whatever taxes are necessary to pay someone a good salary for performing that task on my behalf, and you will just have to forgive me for being so callous and uncaring about the criminals whining and crying that I send up a prayer for those good public servants well being while they are in the battle zone.

In my sixty four years dealing with people from all walks of life, rich and poor, workers and slackers , people of all races and religions, I have yet to meet anyone who wants to hold anyone down, nor wishes anyone to fail in life. I pray that these criminals will somehow see the error of their ways and become what there grandmothers taught them and want them to be,,,,, just plain old commonly everyday decent people. Is that so very much to ask of anyone? If people would just get over themselves, treat others with respect and common decency there would be no need for any cops... Good ones or bad ones.


----------



## where I want to

Patchouli said:


> In case people didn't read your link which was excellent:
> 
> 
> Definitely something to think about.


Having personally had a doctor put me through unnecessary life endangering tests for his personal gain, having had a nurse prep me for surgery who was very drunk, having had a friend go through unnecessary surgery that almost killed him and left him disabled and reading about the others who were killed by this same doctor, and having a nurse give me sworn statements about his having been dismissed (dismissed like that was enough) for having sex with anesthetsized women in the recovery room, a physical therapist who assaulted teenagers he was treating, etc, I doubt whether the police are as bad as the medical profession. Police just aren't as protected by their establishments and the public as doctors.


----------



## gibbsgirl

There's a whole huge section of your posts, Yvonne's hubby, that I read and thought, "OK, that describes some criminals, but not all criminals/lawbreakers". My next thought reading was, " actually this also describes some cops, but not all cops."


----------



## gibbsgirl

Yep, where I want to, there's a whole storm of folks in healthcare who are endangering and victimizing and not serving the public/their patients, too. Amen, to that.


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> The evidence does not support that. Police departments always side with the cop. So do fellow police officers. It takes something outside the department either evidence or someone with political clout generally to get a cop brought up on any sort of charges.
> 
> The psychology behind it is pretty basic: if we expose this guy we make all of us look bad. You see it everywhere. Churches do it, businesses do it, politicians do it, farmers at farmer's markets do it.


you have obviously overlooked the definitions of good and bad cops. "Good ones" will not backup bad cops.... But as we all know bad ones will. 
Same thing applies to churches, businesses and politicians.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Yvonne's hubby said:


> you have obviously overlooked the definitions of good and bad cops. "Good ones" will not backup bad cops.... But as we all know bad ones will.
> Same thing applies to churches, businesses and politicians.


Fair enough. But, people, to a certain degree have some level of choice about which churches, politicians, and businesses they deal with. And, if there is a life threatening or criminal problem, they can call the cops for help. Also, there can be quite a variety as to have w different churches, politicians, and businesses represent who they are to others. So people can to varying degrees tell a bit about who those people and businesses are compared to others in the same fields or industries.

I see those things as important distinctions to what's different when compared to cops.

But, I absolutely agree there are great, awful, and in between characters in all professions.


----------



## Evons hubby

where I want to said:


> Having personally had a doctor put me through unnecessary life endangering tests for his personal gain, having had a nurse prep me for surgery who was very drunk, having had a friend go through unnecessary surgery that almost killed him and left him disabled and reading about the others who were killed by this same doctor, and having a nurse give me sworn statements about his having been dismissed (dismissed like that was enough) for having sex with anesthetsized women in the recovery room, a physical therapist who assaulted teenagers he was treating, etc, I doubt whether the police are as bad as the medical profession. Police just aren't as protected by their establishments and the public as doctors.


As so many have posted in so many threads befor this.... There are good people and not so good people in every barrel you care to open, be it race Color, religion, profession or any other identifiable group. That's how the world is always has been and most likely always will be. As my dear old departed daddy was fond of saying... "Get used to it, it ain't gonna get any better by whining about it."


----------



## Evons hubby

gibbsgirl said:


> Fair enough. But, people, to a certain degree have some level of choice about which churches, politicians, and businesses they deal with. And, if there is a life threatening or criminal problem, they can call the cops for help. Also, there can be quite a variety as to have w different churches, politicians, and businesses represent who they are to others. So people can to varying degrees tell a bit about who those people and businesses are compared to others in the same fields or industries.
> 
> I see those things as important distinctions to what's different when compared to cops.
> 
> But, I absolutely agree there are great, awful, and in between characters in all professions.


Are you aware that there are people available to call when/if you encounter what you believe to be a bad cop? I found this tidbit out years ago, had a bad experience with one of our state troopers, it took some digging but found out how the process worked, filed my complaint and last I heard that trooper was busing tables for a chain restaurant. That of course after an investigation that turned up illegal weapons along with other minor violations that bought him a year in lockup.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Are you aware that there are people available to call when/if you encounter what you believe to be a bad cop? I found this tidbit out years ago, had a bad experience with one of our state troopers, it took some digging but found out how the process worked, filed my complaint and last I heard that trooper was busing tables for a chain restaurant. That of course after an investigation that turned up illegal weapons along with other minor violations that bought him a year in lockup.


I didn't find it comforting to be invited by their watch commander to come into the station and file a report. After that I never bothered calling to report stuff. What's the point?

One time is was given a speeding ticket so the four guys had a "legit reason for stopping me with a paper trail". Told me to my face plain as day that they knew I was not speeding, but needed to o document something because they had been getting too many complaints about stopping women for no good reason. They reassured me that it was the lowest fine speeding ticket, and my insurance shouldn't go up too much.

That one I filed to have a court hearing to fight it. But, I ended up too intimidated to show up that day.

I guess the four of them didn't either, cause the judge the it out.

I don't doubt the real life experiences others have had. Mine are real too. And, sometimes we'll find similarities and sometimes differences. I appreciate you sharing your success story. It gives me hope.

The only practical way I found a o improve my chances of avoiding those cop problems, was to alter my " free lifestyle" unfortunately. It stopped being worth the risk of going out as a young lady without a male escorting me.


----------



## Evons hubby

gibbsgirl said:


> *I didn't find it comforting to be invited by their watch commander to come into the station and file a report. After that I never bothered calling to report stuff. What's the point?*
> 
> One time is was given a speeding ticket so the four guys had a "legit reason for stopping me with a paper trail". Told me to my face plain as day that they knew I was not speeding, but needed to o document something because they had been getting too many complaints about stopping women for no good reason. They reassured me that it was the lowest fine speeding ticket, and my insurance shouldn't go up too much.
> 
> That one I filed to have a court hearing to fight it. But, I ended up too intimidated to show up that day.
> 
> I guess the four of them didn't either, cause the judge the it out.
> 
> I don't doubt the real life experiences others have had. Mine are real too. And, sometimes we'll find similarities and sometimes differences. I appreciate you sharing your success story. It gives me hope.
> 
> The only practical way I found a o improve my chances of avoiding those cop problems, was to alter my " free lifestyle" unfortunately. It stopped being worth the risk of going out as a young lady without a male escorting me.


interesting, why would you be uncomfortable filing a report if you believed you had been wronged? I understand that women operate on a different wavelength than men, but I didn't hesitate for as much as a heartbeat to dig around, find out where and who to file my report against the putz that left me to die(for all he knew) on the side of the road once he figured out I was actually having a serious bout with my ticker instead of being a simple dui bust.

The point? To get this jerk off the force before I would have to pay his retirement!


----------



## gibbsgirl

Honestly, I there are details of that incident that I haven't written here. And, I don't feel comfortable sharing. It wasn't the worst story of things cops have done to women. I truly think the only thing that saved it from being worse, was a guy I know pulled over on the highway, and refused to leave even when the second unit showed up and forced him to stay in his vehicle.

But, my dad sat with me while I called the station the next day. At the conclusion of the call, he said there was no way he wanted me anywhere near any of those cops at their station or otherwise. And, he said there was no way they would want hi m anywhere near them.

I was stopped again during late afternoon about a year later, and was left alone after that one saw my wedding ring and asked if the car seat in the back was for my kid. Another total bs stop. Said I had lights out. Hubby and dad checked my whole vehicle when I got home and found nothing wrong. After that, my husband drove me to all my college classes and home, because it was in that same neighboring county. And it was an hour drive each way.

I've been stopped other times over the years, no tickets, no arrests, treated pretty rudely and intimidated. I'm not perfect. But, I'm extremely Leary of ever trusting any of them. Funny thing is I don't get stopped when my hubby is with me. And, its all men cops. Like I said some of these cops are bad news. And, I still haven't figured out how to tell onsight who's who.

Side note, it also doesn't help that my cousin was married to a guy on the shift that beat Rodney king either. But, that's a whole series of other stories. King was no innocent. But, he wasn't the scariest guy in the scenario by a long shot. The short version, is that week he was on vacation, so he didn't go on trial by sheer luck. Later became a detective, later became an instructor at lapd polie academy. Yeah right lapd cleaned house on that.

Oh and BTW, the county where I went to college and had some of my bad runins with the cops was the same county where those Rodney king cops went on trial and were acquitted. A lot of lapd cops lived there and we're very chummy with that counties cops.


----------



## Evons hubby

gibbsgirl said:


> Honestly, I there are details of that incident that I haven't written here. And, I don't feel comfortable sharing. It wasn't the worst story of things cops have done to women. I truly think the only thing that saved it from being worse, was a guy I know pulled over on the highway, and refused to leave even when the second unit showed up and forced him to stay in his vehicle.
> 
> But, my dad sat with me while I called the station the next day. At the conclusion of the call, he said there was no way he wanted hme anywhere near any of those cops at their station or otherwise. And, he said there was no way they would want hi m anywhere near them.
> 
> I was stopped again during late afternoon about a year later, and was left alone after that one saw my wedding ring and asked if the car seat in the back was for my kid. Another total bs stop. Said I had lights out. Hubby and dad checked my whole vehicle when I got home and found nothing wrong. After that, my husband drove me to all my college classes and home, because it was in that same neighboring county. And it was an hour drive each way.
> 
> I've been stopped other times over the years, no tickets, no arrests, treated pretty rudely and intimidated. I'm not perfect. But, I'm extremely Leary of ever trusting any of them. Funny thing is I don't get stopped when my hubby is with me. And, its all men cops. Like I said some of these cops are bad news. And, I still haven't figured out how to tell onsight who's who.
> 
> Side note, it also doesn't help that my cousin was married to a guy on the shift that beat Rodney king either. But, that's a whole series of other stories. King was no innocent. But, he wasn't the scariest guy in the scenario by a long shot. The short version, is that week he was on vacation, so he didn't go on trial by sheer luck. Later became a detective, later became an instructor at lapd polie academy. Yeah right lapd cleaned house on that.
> 
> Oh and BTW, the county where I went to college and had some of my bad runins with the cops was the same county where those Rodney king cops went on trial and were acquitted. A lot of lapd cops lived there and we're very chummy with that counties cops.


now I understand completely. No need to explain further.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Patchouli said:


> They are almost always let off the hook for 4 reasons. Their dept stands behind them 100% and their fellow cops won't rat out anther cop. Unless there is bystander film of the the incident the whole thing gets covered up and no prosecution ever happens.
> 
> They are prosecuted by the local DA who is dependent on their police dept for arrests and info leading to convictions. So they always low ball the cases. They go to great lengths to get their boys exonerated.
> 
> Cities have to pay through the nose if the police officer is at fault. So starting with the PD straight on up the line there is a heavy emphasis to cover up and exonerate. Otherwise it hurts everyone.
> 
> Juries think like you and assume the bad guy deserved it and the police officer must have had a reason for what he did.
> 
> 2 cases that hopefully will help you see why I am so fired up here:
> 
> Tamir Rice. 12 yo boy killed instantly by cops for playing in a park with a toy gun. He was shot within 2 seconds of the police officer pulling up to the park. He was left to bleed to death and no medical assistance was given. The city of Cleveland along with several other cities in America was under investigation for extreme violence used by their PD.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/01/us/cleveland-responds-lawsuit-police-shooting-tamir-rice/
> 
> Walter Scott. Shot in NC by a police officer who claimed Mr. Scott struggled with him for his taser and he was in fear of his life so he shot him. His police dept stood by him. Until bystander video showed up and proved Officer Slager not only lied about the taser he planted false evidence to back up his story and shot the guy in the back and again rendered zero medical assistance.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/08/u...-charged-with-murder-in-black-mans-death.html
> 
> I could sit here all day and post stories like this.


You know there is a reason they put orange tape on pellet guns ,but non the less when the kid saw those cops he should had the good sense to of dropped that gun .Now crooks put the tape on real guns . You don't think a kid can kill you ?


----------



## farmrbrown

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Are you aware that there are people available to call when/if you encounter what you believe to be a bad cop? I found this tidbit out years ago, had a bad experience with one of our state troopers, it took some digging but found out how the process worked, filed my complaint and last I heard that trooper was busing tables for a chain restaurant. That of course after an investigation that turned up illegal weapons along with other minor violations that bought him a year in lockup.



:goodjob:
Yes, there is a chain of command and I don't care how high I have to climb to get there, somebody is going to hear about it. 
Every time I see a SC trooper it reminds me of the one that pulled over when my wife's car broke down on Thanksgiving weekend years ago.......and stole the money she had saved to visit her kids and buy Christmas presents. It wasn't a huge amount, about $200, but it was a lot of money back then and all she had. Left her broke down on the side of the road and broke too!
Sometimes scum wear a uniform.
:flame:
You and I aren't like most people though and I think LEO families tend to be more silent.




gibbsgirl said:


> I didn't find it comforting to be invited by their watch commander to come into the station and file a report. After that I never bothered calling to report stuff. What's the point?
> 
> One time is was given a speeding ticket so the four guys had a "legit reason for stopping me with a paper trail". Told me to my face plain as day that they knew I was not speeding, but needed to o document something because they had been getting too many complaints about stopping women for no good reason. They reassured me that it was the lowest fine speeding ticket, and my insurance shouldn't go up too much.
> 
> *That one I filed to have a court hearing to fight it. But, I ended up too intimidated to show up that day.*
> 
> I guess the four of them didn't either, cause the judge the it out.
> 
> I don't doubt the real life experiences others have had. Mine are real too. And, sometimes we'll find similarities and sometimes differences. I appreciate you sharing your success story. It gives me hope.
> 
> The only practical way I found a o improve my chances of avoiding those cop problems, was to alter my " free lifestyle" unfortunately. It stopped being worth the risk of going out as a young lady without a male escorting me.


----------



## Cornhusker

Patchouli said:


> Are you responsible for the actions of every white person in America? Should you be judged on the basis of the actions of every white person in America? No? Then black people shouldn't be judged that way either.


I am responsible for me.
I don't want to go to prison or get shot by cops, so I use my only super power, "personal responsibility".
With this super power, I'm able to not hold up liquor stores, I can outrun the urge to sell, buy or use illegal drugs. I'm able to not mug people, steal cars, or rape women.
I earn my living, raise my kids, provide for my family, pay my taxes and have 2 part time jobs in addition to my full time job to make it all happen.
"Personal responsibility" means taking responsibility for your own actions...shouldn't really have to explain that I guess.
So in answer to your question, "No, I'm not responsible for every white person", and every black person is responsible for his or her own actions.
You can blame evil ol ------ all you want, you can blame the cops, the courts, unicorns and Batman, but until people start owning their own actions, then nothing will change.

ETA: I guess the "W" word is outlawed here now too?


----------



## Tricky Grama

Trixie said:


> I read the article and there isn't much to disagree with - of course, it will depend on the implementation of those ideas. I suspect that's the rub.
> 
> Now I do have a problem with some of the first one.
> 
> ************Campaign Zero proposes ending this type of policing by decriminalizing or deprioritizing public alcohol consumption, marijuana possession, disorderly conduct, trespassing, loitering, disturbing the peace, and spitting, as well as ending racial profiling and establishing mental health response teams that are better equipped to deal with mental health crises (which can result in, for example, disorderly conduct) than police.*******
> 
> I'm OK with ending racial profiling - if that means racial targeting. If someone knocks over a convenience store and the owners says it is a black man, I don't think they should stop white people - just to be sure they aren't 'profiling'.
> 
> I'm not against legalizing marijuana. I just think there should be stiff penalties for selling or allowing minors to get it. Also, I think there should be penalties if driving while under the influence or causing damage under the influence.
> 
> As far as " disorderly conduct, trespassing, loitering, disturbing the peace", I don't think that should be allowed. When someone asked how this country could be turned into a third world country - I think ignoring that kind of behavior is a good way. Spitting - depends on the circumstances.
> 
> I do think allowing people to be disorderly and disrespect others and other's property could very well lead to worse crimes.


Post of the day award.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Shrek said:


> A contributing factor from the suspect side of the situation is that in this century more suspects choose to attempt to debate with officers attempting to detain/arrest them more often rather than being detained and in the wise words of my father, sit on their butts and keep their mouth shut until they make their phone call.
> 
> The few times my friends and I were detained by the police or busted for misdemeanor possession of liquor none of us were ever handcuffed and there were both whites and blacks in the group I beer partied with.
> 
> Of course we all followed the LEOs instructions and sat on our butts and kept our mouths shut until we got our phone calls. We did not try to debate with the men with the guns and badges and we all remembered the song "I fought the law and the law won" because as underage drinkers in a dry county , we all knew we had been caught fair and square.
> 
> Years later watching episodes of COPS, I often found myself wondering when did folks not classy enough to wear a shirt in public decide that they could back talk when a gun or Taser was aimed at them and they were usually outnumbered at least two to one. :shrug:
> 
> COPS, the instructional video series on how not to be a criminal sociopath.


Another post of the day award!

Who disagrees w/this? Do you, collectively 'you' who are jumping on the 'change the cops' band wagon seeing the wisdom in this??


----------



## Tricky Grama

7thswan said:


> I don't have a problem with Cops being Cops and all the gear they want/need to wear. I'd a total idiot to fear what a Cop wears, same mindset as some creep rapeing a woman because her skirt is short. Personal responsibility People, grow up. Cops make mistakes just like everyone else and I'm sure not going to accept a bunch of crooked politicans to change things up.


Post of the decade award.

Its not the usual thing for cops to be in 'riot' gear is it? If they're in reg uniforms for reg stuff but don riot gear when there's RIOTS, what's the beef???


----------



## cooper101

wiscto said:


> Stating the fact that we have a problem with our police in this country, and wanting to improve the interaction between ourselves and the police, is not the same thing as killing a policeman or even unfairly prosecuting one who did nothing wrong. It would be stupidity not to recognize our current problems. Civil forfeitures, forced entries into innocent peoples homes, cops who don't seem to understand what the rules really are even during minor traffic stops, illegal search and seizure, and yes...some of these shootings were murders. We can admit that we need changes without siding with the idiots who think all police are bad or that every shooting/arrest is unjustified.


 There you go with that rational thinking again. This forum isn't about actually _*solving*_ anything.


----------



## gapeach

The way things are right now they need to wear whatever keep them safer!


----------



## Tricky Grama

Nevada said:


> I think you should prepare yourself for some kind of police reform.


And the solution I read that this admin wants is to de-criminalize 'small' stuff. The 'small' stuff is what gets cities to the point of civility. To the point of lowest crime in history. Look at NYC & the ' broken window' mind set vs the socialist De Blasio's blase attitude. Murder rate is doubling.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Yvonne's hubby said:


> That is pretty bad. How about using the correct word.... Callem what they are...the criminals. Lots of good decent black people out there that are every bit as appalled by the criminal element as any of us white folk are.


I took it to mean the "BLM" black people...I know there are white folks in w/them but mostly its a black movement or else they'd say: "ALL lives matter".


----------



## Oxankle

Gibbsgirl:
We have no reason whatever to doubt your story. However, there has to be a reason for a policman to even notice a citizen before making a stop. Millions of us go about our daily lives and never have interactions with the police unless we break a rule.

Some years ago a friend's beautiful young wife, driving thru Kansas, was stopped. The trooper implied that she could escape a speeding fine if she provided him with certain favors. She paid the fine, told her husband, the troopeer eventually was dismissed as I recall. She was very pretty, driving alone in her convertible. I recall reading of s similar case in the Tulsa papers a few months back.

Now; what is it about you that makes the police even SEE you? How do you stand out from the crowd? Especially beautiful or ugly, tattoos, busty? Do you dress in a manner that distinguishes you from the crowd? Orange hair? Goth? Large or especially petite? (my son, at 16, was so short that ther police stopped him regularly to check his license_Could not see his head over the seat back.)

Is your vehicle unique? Especially expensive or ratty? Convertible? Strange color?

Can you account for this? There has to be SOMETHING that causes police to "see" you.


----------



## AmericanStand

FarmerKat said:


> I was following up on your post that cops should not have a gun to appear more friendly (at least that is the way I read your response ... maybe I was wrong???).



I think you misunderstood what I said. 
I was discussing uniforms. 
What I meant was that a gun should not be a part of the uniform , there's no need for them to be visibly wearing one at lunch at Denny's , not for every interaction with the public. 
Responding to a hostage situation I would expect them to bring a weapon from the car , still no need for a side arm.


----------



## AmericanStand

where I want to said:


> You have said this before but from the time of my first car- a totalled VW Beetle with a chain holding the trunk closed and no bumper- to the one I have now- a 20 year old PC with a 2 ft long dent in the rear , I have never once been stopped.
> 
> And the ones I have seen stopped by the police that not been wrecks either.
> 
> I think you need to look more at why you get stopped.



Lol well in these cases I'd say I'm stopped because I'm at small airports late at night. 
The cops seem to hang out there far more than the crime there would require. 
Of course thAt might be why there's not much crime at small airports.


----------



## where I want to

AmericanStand said:


> I think you misunderstood what I said.
> I was discussing uniforms.
> What I meant was that a gun should not be a part of the uniform , there's no need for them to be visibly wearing one at lunch at Denny's , not for every interaction with the public.
> Responding to a hostage situation I would expect them to bring a weapon from the car , still no need for a side arm.


I wonder about this. There are countries where the police do not carry guns but, of course, the citizens of those countries don't either. I wish there could be someway of giving a trial to a policing unit that sort of advertises itself as unarmed to see if it could be effective.
In this country, unarmed people get killed fairly often by criminals. Guns battles are not that uncommon where there is no police presence at all. So clearly it is not anywhere near all on police that people get shot.


----------



## Shrek

No living person is perfect regardless of their station in life or job position. All a living person can do is strive to try to be as fair and within accepted social limits as they can.

In this day and age if they don't strive for that they are probably 1000 times more likely to get their socially unacceptable actions publicized via instant communications avenues and in worse case find themselves targeted by sectors of society, often in potentially fatal ways.

I know a couple local LEOs who served in their jobs exemplary in their law enforcement positions for 15 to 20 years yet both eventually forgot that as a LEO they had to go the extra distance in keeping their personal distaste of some of the social elements they were tasked with policing from tainting their attitude in the performance of their duty.

After one had made sarcastic remarks over the police band saying "what was the use. Neither of the parties will pursue charges and even if the department filed charges , the complainants would hire an attorney to get them dropped" when dispatched to investigate a repeatedly reported domestic disturbance situation where the husband or wife would call 911 in a cry wolf report, after the chief deputy reprimanded him for improper use over the police ban, the LEO chose to resign and gave his notice and now has returned to cattle farming.

The other LEO began to lose the ability to avoid allowing his emotion from interfering with the performance of his field duties as he dealt with spitting and cussing arrestees and after other deputies reported having to intervene to prevent him from crossing the line, the internal affairs board terminated him because he refused to meet with the department psychologist.

On the flip side of the situation I see many civilians who spout off of their constitutional rights, yet they choose to overlook the fact in addition to the seven articles and 27 amendments to the Constitution they choose to wrap themselves in, there are literally thousands of applicable laws and statutes that are part of the legal codes put in place by the federal, state, county and municipal government levels that both they and the LEOs must abide by.

Take the code statute most often argued by civilians, a LEO asking for their name and identification while investigating a potentially suspicious activity in the LEOs patrol area.

The federal government in the 1930s started making federal identification numbers available to all U.S. citizens. Over the decades the voluntary option of getting a SSN became mandatory at birth and the private sector, especially the medical sector began abusing use of the SSN and it is still being contested and "kicked down the road" by politicians.

However at the same time , all applicable legal codes from federal down to municipal level have incorporated identification on request statutes in the form of presenting a valid picture I.D in the form of a driver's license or federal or state issued form of non driver identification.

Although anyone with common sense understands how the articles and amendments of the Constitution and the statutes of the applicable legal codes both apply to their right of interacting within our society , many choose to pretend that they all apply and often how they act may be legally in the wrong and all sides of the equation ultimately must rely upon the legal sector with its enforcement arm, litigation arm, legislative arm and judicial arm to wade through the myriad of applicable statutes while restraining both their actions and tongues.

BTW now that we are in the 21st century, in addition to the Constitutional artless and amendments and thousands of legal code statutes we all must abide by, a new legal landscape know as internet law is developing and adding it's own legal code statutes in most jurisdictional levels so in addition to watching our actions and our tongues, we also have to be careful of what our fingers and keyboards inject into the social landscape.

It's almost lunch time. Guess I will get into my vehicle with my weapon, driver's license and CCW permit both that are picture identification in addition to allowing me to legally operate a motor vehicle and carry a firearm and go get some lunch.

Odds are I won't have any run in with any LEO , but if I do at least I will have the necessary documentation if I am asked for it.


----------



## Cornhusker

Tricky Grama said:


> And the solution I read that this admin wants is to de-criminalize 'small' stuff. The 'small' stuff is what gets cities to the point of civility. To the point of lowest crime in history. Look at NYC & the ' broken window' mind set vs the socialist De Blasio's blase attitude. Murder rate is doubling.


Apparently drug dealers are small stuff to him
He's a coke head, so I guess that makes sense.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

AmericanStand said:


> I think you misunderstood what I said.
> I was discussing uniforms.
> What I meant was that a gun should not be a part of the uniform , there's no need for them to be visibly wearing one at lunch at Denny's , not for every interaction with the public.
> Responding to a hostage situation I would expect them to bring a weapon from the car , still no need for a side arm.


No need for a side arm have you lost it . That would put cops out like setting ducks or more like shooting fish in a barrel . The cops aren't patrolling a city full of alter boys .Even a unloaded gun is called a club .


----------



## watcher

Nevada said:


> I'm not seeing that. Case in point; I have a Neighborhood Watch sign posted in front of my home.


Some problems with you trying to use your example to counter my argument. One, you can't use the specific to argue the general. Its like saying its clear that wearing a seat belt will get you killed because you know of one case where someone most likely would have survived an accident if they had not been strapped in.

Two, putting up a sign or even several signs doesn't mean you or your neighbors are actually taking any responsibility. Putting up a sign on your sidewalk saying you are not responsible for any accidents caused by your failing to maintain the sidewalk does not make it so.

Third, as I understand it a Neighborhood Watch isn't people taking responsibility it is another example of pushing that responsibility upon the government. The neighbors only call for the police to deal with a crime, or possible crime, they do very little to spot and head off trouble before it reaches that point. Do you think your NW group would go to someone's house and tell them that they believe the parents should not be leaving their 12 or 14 y.o. son alone for hours on end? Or be willing to step up in public and tell a neighborhood child to stop doing something improper (e.g. riding their ATV in a neighbor's field when it was known the neighbor forbid it)? 


Schools are a prime place to look at where responsibility is being abandoned. Teachers tell me all the time the parents they see at parent-teacher conferences are the parents of the kids which are already doing very well in class. The parents of kids who are in the most danger of failing or who are considered 'problem students' are never seen. Yet its the school/teachers who get the blame when something 'bad' happens. This is why we have so many "zero tolerance" rules that a graduating honor student is suspend and not allowed to attend their graduation because a steak knife was found in their truck a box of household goods said student was helping move. Its why a kindergartner is suspended for kissing a friend on the cheek or drawing a firearm or using his finger and thumb as a gun while playing on the playground.


----------



## watcher

Patchouli said:


> Your husband's uniform sounds like a standard one for police officers. That's fine. He shouldn't look like my sons who are in the Army. If you can't tell your local PD from your local National Guard unit then you have a problem.


Your local PD wears that as routine patrol gear? If so you might have a problem bigger than what the police wear.


----------



## Nevada

watcher said:


> Schools are a prime place to look at where responsibility is being abandoned. Teachers tell me all the time the parents they see at parent-teacher conferences are the parents of the kids which are already doing very well in class. The parents of kids who are in the most danger of failing or who are considered 'problem students' are never seen.


They said the same when I was in elementary school, some 60 years ago. Was it ever any different?


----------



## watcher

Patchouli said:


> No but the difference here is not in how we as citizens act it is in how the police react to us. As a 47 yo white woman I pretty much get a pass no matter what I do. I could trot down the street with a gun, yell at a police officer and go on my merry way. I have a friend who is black who is exactly like me in every way except skin color and there is no way she would get away with what I could, no way. She is forced to live her life in worry over making a wrong move and getting into a bad situation. That's not right.


Raises the bigger question of why? Why are cops more suspicious/wary of blacks? Is it because cops are racist? Could it be that history has shown that blacks more often tend to be more violent? 

Think about it. You hear a report of a mass shooting what color do you think the shooter most likely is? I'm guessing white because history has shown that the VAST majority of such shooters are white. Now if you hear of a violent robbery of a store what color pops into your mind first? Again, just guessing, but I'd say black. Why? Because history has shown us this to be the norm.

The cop on the street doesn't know you. He is forced to make judgement calls based on history and experience. If history has shown that older white women are very likely to be armed and willing to use violence to avoid arrest then you can bet you bottom dollar when he approaches you he's going to treat you as a threat until you prove otherwise.

Want to avoid being treated roughly or shot when confronted by a police officer? Its really simple, I tell a lot of people this. Stay calm, keep your hands where he can see them, keep your hands well away from your body, bag or car seat and follow his directions. If you think his actions are incorrect then you deal with that AFTER the situation is over.

Traffic stops at night are very dangerous and the cop is going to be in a higher alert status, you want to make sure you do nothing to make it worse. As soon as you see the lights behind you and you are sure its you he is after slow down and if there's isn't a safe place to stop close put your hazard lights on and slowly drive until you find a safe place. Once you stop turn on the interior lights, place your hands on the dash with your arms through the steering wheel and DO NOTHING other than talk until he tells you. Then you tell him EXACTLY what movements your are going to make before you make them and wait for him to tell you OK.

One last thing. Who poses the most risk to a young black male; a young white male, a white cop of any age or another young black male?


----------



## watcher

Nevada said:


> The process of weeding out bad apples is difficult, particularly when good cops back bad cops.


Same can be said for any profession. Its worse in some than others and in cops you have a huge dose of US vs THEM mixed in because they constantly deal with the scum of the earth and they depend on their fellow officers to keep them alive.


----------



## watcher

Nevada said:


> Not that I know of. If a firefighter says a confined space seems dangerous then he's taken at his word. But I can't imagine a firefighter who had that problem making it through training.
> 
> We had a new trainee who seemed phobic of serious traffic accidents once. At least that's my theory. After refusing to help at an accident using flimsy excuses a few times we decided to drop him from training. Working traffic collisions was too big a part of the job to have someone who can't perform at the scene.


A lot of difference in going into a situation knowing what the risk are than having to go in blind.

How would you feel if you were got a call out in an area where firefighters had been shot at several times in the past?


----------



## watcher

Nevada said:


> That's simply not the reality.


Usually not but it can be the case. Much more so in smaller departments. A rouge cop puts others in danger with his actions.


----------



## watcher

AmericanStand said:


> AAny cop that would react that way needs to be killed before he kills innocent person.
> 
> 
> Oxankle I think I see the problem you are apparently one of those people who reacts like a cowed puppy to police. A citizen shouldn't have to act like that but of course if you do I'm quite sure they react to you favorably.y


Anyone who antagonizes an armed man is a FOOL. It doesn't matter if that armed man is wearing a badge or gang tats.


----------



## Nevada

watcher said:


> How would you feel if you were got a call out in an area where firefighters had been shot at several times in the past?


I never had that situation myself, but I had a friend who was a paramedic for LA City Fire. They had a situation where people were turning in medical false alarms for the purpose of an ambush. How was he supposed to feel?


----------



## watcher

Nevada said:


> I think that people are beginning to understand that we've given a small group of people the authority to use deadly force with inadequate rules & oversight. I don't expect BLM to go away. Instead I expect reforms, which will most likely include a more well-defined description of police authority and increased oversight.


I have to disagree with your view of "inadequate rules". Care to point out any department where the rules for the use of force are inadequate? In most cases these rules are written by lawyers who write them in such a way to protect the city's (not the police officer's) rear end. Then these rules are repeatedly trained/drilled into the officer's heads, again not for the officer's benefit but the city's.

Oversight or lack thereof is the responsibility of the citizens themselves. They can check or follow up on actions they feel are wrong either through the department's own policy or via the court system. Its the old trust be verify.


----------



## Nevada

watcher said:


> In most cases these rules are written by lawyers who write them in such a way to protect the city's (not the police officer's) rear end.


Now you get to see the rules rewritten to protect citizens.


----------



## watcher

Nevada said:


> I think you should prepare yourself for some kind of police reform.


And as usual with such things it will most likely be a knee jerk overreaction which will look good but will do little to change things but make the enforcement of laws more difficult. And it will most likely take more rights from citizens.

We could always go with having every street in the US covered with CCTV recording 24/7, have cameras on all police officers and the like. But we'd have to make sure that anyone could review these recordings to be sure the police are not hiding anything. I'm sure there wouldn't be anyone who would use a such searches of these recordings to find embarrassing things to either post on youtube or to use a blackmail. 

Or better yet if you really want to stop police killing innocent people why not just disarm the police? Seems like that's what the pols want to do to stop citizens from killing other citizens.


----------



## watcher

FarmerKat said:


> So how do you think a cop should respond to an armed robbery at a convenience store without firearms? Say, they the robbers are still holding store employees at gun point. A cop shows up with a bare hands and a small can of pepper spray. How should he handle the situation?


Stand back and record the event with his body camera and if the person is id then they can call in the flying squad to nab him. <--that there is sarcasm


----------



## watcher

The biggest result that I see coming from all of this is a lot of the good cops are going to say "Shove this! I quit." Then things will really get nasty for all those people who are now marching in the streets saying black lives matter because more of those blacks will lose their lives because no one will be there to catch the those blacks who take the black lives who are supposed to matter.


----------



## watcher

Deacon Mike said:


> The black people? OMG, what a horrid statement. You really couldn't be more wrong.


How so? Ever talk to a cop in a high crime area? They will tell you the biggest problem they have is the fact that the people of that are don't care enough to help them deal with the criminals. In some places gang members and drug dealers are looked up to as role models.


----------



## gapeach

The new police candidate enrollment list is way down already. Can you blame them?

Erollment down by half at Carollton Police Academy in Texas.
-video

*Carrolton Police Academy Enrollment Down* Recent violent attacks against police officers has impacted enrollment rates at the academy.

*Categories:* News KTVTTV
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/video/3289016-carrolton-police-academy-enrollment-down/


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I am sure you could do it all day, but why do you feel compelled to do that? It's not going to change the facts. Criminals are called criminals for a reason.... Most have no respect for themselves, much less for their fellow man, and certainly not for any authority figures. They abused their classmates in school and refused to accept any authority from teachers, principals or councillors. For whatever reason they seem to think the are above any of civilized societies rules or laws. They feel entitled to take others property, or simply destroy it for "kicks". They feel picked on when the law catches them red handed with stolen property in their possession and blame society for their fate. One of their main complaints today is that there are too many laws.... Making their lives miserable that are targeted unfairly at them. Nobody gave a rats pattootie who it was doing the mischief when those laws were written, they simply wanted it stopped. Nobody wants to live in fear of vandals, thieves, drug crazed idiots assaulting them or robbing them. Women would prefer to be able to walk down the street without fear of being raped. When these thugs take over an area they call it their turf. They have no qualms about doing grevious harm to anyone that threatens their control of their turf. They respect no one and are perfectly fine with killing anyone who gets in their way. I don't know about you but I think someone, in a lawful manner needs to teach these boils on the backside of humanity some basic manners. I believe this enough to be glad to pay whatever taxes are necessary to pay someone a good salary for performing that task on my behalf, and you will just have to forgive me for being so callous and uncaring about the criminals whining and crying that I send up a prayer for those good public servants well being while they are in the battle zone.
> 
> In my sixty four years dealing with people from all walks of life, rich and poor, workers and slackers , people of all races and religions, I have yet to meet anyone who wants to hold anyone down, nor wishes anyone to fail in life. I pray that these criminals will somehow see the error of their ways and become what there grandmothers taught them and want them to be,,,,, just plain old commonly everyday decent people. Is that so very much to ask of anyone? If people would just get over themselves, treat others with respect and common decency there would be no need for any cops... Good ones or bad ones.


Because people like you really believe people should die over a traffic stop because they must be criminals. Kids should die in parks for playing. People should be shot in the back like dogs for running. People shouldn't be safe sleeping in their homes because our militarised police may knock down their doors and kill their children or their dogs. 

They must have deserved it. Your whole post just turns my stomach because I believe you are a decent, caring person and yet you are so blinded to reality that you can justify all these police killings as deserved. And all the bad cops as practically non-existent.

Posts like this just make me want to sit down and cry.


----------



## watcher

Patchouli said:


> Are you responsible for the actions of every white person in America? Should you be judged on the basis of the actions of every white person in America? No? Then black people shouldn't be judged that way either.


If they don't want to be judged by the color of their skin then why are they using it as a slogan? Like it or not different colors have different cultures and follow somewhat different rules. 

Also each member of a group should be held responsible for his reaction to the actions of another member of his group. If a white man stands up and calls for all blacks to be killed and I stand by and do/say nothing am I not shirking my responsibility not only as a citizen but as a member of the white community?


----------



## gapeach

watcher said:


> If they don't want to be judged by the color of their skin then why are they using it as a slogan? Like it or not different colors have different cultures and follow somewhat different rules.
> 
> Also each member of a group should be held responsible for his reaction to the actions of another member of his group. If a white man stands up and calls for all blacks to be killed and I stand by and do/say nothing am I not shirking my responsibility not only as a citizen but as a member of the white community?


If a white man said that, he would be arrested and put in jail. 

I agree with you though. If it were reversed there would be plenty of white citizens who would stop it as a good citizen should. That when the violence would likely begin for intefering with them.


----------



## Patchouli

gapeach said:


> If a white man said that, he would be arrested and put in jail.
> 
> I agree with you though. If it were reversed there would be plenty of white citizens who would stop it as a good citizen should. That when the violence would likely begin for intefering with them.


Once again look to your own race because the last time I checked all of the ***********, Neo Nazis and KKK members are not currently sitting in jail.


----------



## watcher

AmericanStand said:


> I think you misunderstood what I said.
> I was discussing uniforms.
> What I meant was that a gun should not be a part of the uniform , there's no need for them to be visibly wearing one at lunch at Denny's , not for every interaction with the public.
> Responding to a hostage situation I would expect them to bring a weapon from the car , still no need for a side arm.


Isn't that like saying you shouldn't put your seat belt on unless you were going to do something risky? There are thousands of people who carry a weapon with them every day to almost every place they go. Do these people think they are going to be attacked going to the dollar store? No. They they know as with a seat belt the odds of them needing it are small but when it is needed they are going to need it instantly.

I don't think the large man who had planned on raping my sister would have stood by and waited while she went to her car, opened a safe, removed and loaded her handgun and returned ready to protect herself. Do you? I can tell you what I do know. Having a spunky middle aged woman point a handgun at his chest changed his plan from rape to trying to qualifying for Olympics in the 400 meter dash.


----------



## watcher

AmericanStand said:


> Lol well in these cases I'd say I'm stopped because I'm at small airports late at night.
> The cops seem to hang out there far more than the crime there would require.
> Of course thAt might be why there's not much crime at small airports.


Might be that cops around small airports are board and hearing a plane coming in gives them a chance to do something.


----------



## watcher

Shrek said:


> No living person is perfect regardless of their station in life or job position. All a living person can do is strive to try to be as fair and within accepted social limits as they can.


No one is but we seem to demand some to be held to that standard. Doctors are expected to never make a mistake and when they do they are raked over the coals and forced to pay. Police are the same, they are expected to stand back and take things which would cause an average citizen to assault someone.


----------



## watcher

Nevada said:


> They said the same when I was in elementary school, some 60 years ago. Was it ever any different?


Yes, 60 years ago if you didn't make the necessary grades you were 'held back' today you get socially promoted. IOW, today they are not held responsible for their actions.

True story. I had two guys in my school who had been 'held back' so many times that the day after 'graduating' 8th grade (the school only went up to 8th) they went to work in the school as janitors and as far as I know retired as janitors from that school.


----------



## gapeach

Patchouli said:


> Once again look to your own race because the last time I checked all of the ***********, Neo Nazis and KKK members are not currently sitting in jail.


Those people do not march on the streets like Black Lives Matter does.

What are white people supposed to do, go to Klan Rallies and and confront them? No,.......I don't think so........... 
When they break the law, they are arrested if they are caught by the police.

I really don't keep up with them. I am as afraid of those crazy nuts as I am the looney rioters and the looters and the ones who want to put pigs in a blanket & fry em' up brown.


----------



## watcher

Nevada said:


> I never had that situation myself, but I had a friend who was a paramedic for LA City Fire. They had a situation where people were turning in medical false alarms for the purpose of an ambush. How was he supposed to feel?


Like a target and that he should take the necessary actions to stay alive.


----------



## watcher

Nevada said:


> Now you get to see the rules rewritten to protect citizens.


Maybe but I doubt it. A government entity, just like a private one, is going to write the rules based on protecting itself in the courts. It may give lip service to public concern but w/o having such protection it will soon find itself sued out of existence.


----------



## Evons hubby

Oxankle said:


> Gibbsgirl:
> We have no reason whatever to doubt your story. However, there has to be a reason for a policman to even notice a citizen before making a stop. Millions of us go about our daily lives and never have interactions with the police unless we break a rule.
> 
> Some years ago a friend's beautiful young wife, driving thru Kansas, was stopped. The trooper implied that she could escape a speeding fine if she provided him with certain favors. She paid the fine, told her husband, the troopeer eventually was dismissed as I recall. She was very pretty, driving alone in her convertible. I recall reading of s similar case in the Tulsa papers a few months back.
> 
> Now; what is it about you that makes the police even SEE you? How do you stand out from the crowd? *Especially beautiful *or ugly, tattoos, busty? Do you dress in a manner that distinguishes you from the crowd? Orange hair? Goth? Large or especially petite? (my son, at 16, was so short that ther police stopped him regularly to check his license_Could not see his head over the seat back.)
> 
> Is your vehicle unique? Especially expensive or ratty? Convertible? Strange color?
> 
> Can you account for this? There has to be SOMETHING that causes police to "see" you.


:goodjob:


----------



## watcher

gapeach said:


> The new police candidate enrollment list is way down already. Can you blame them?
> 
> Erollment down by half at Carollton Police Academy in Texas.
> -video
> 
> *Carrolton Police Academy Enrollment Down* Recent violent attacks against police officers has impacted enrollment rates at the academy.
> 
> *Categories:* News KTVTTV
> http://dfw.cbslocal.com/video/3289016-carrolton-police-academy-enrollment-down/


IIRC, most places were already having problems finding enough people to fill the ranks. I read a story not long ago about one of the reasons most police departments don't have the "correct" racial ratio is they can't find enough minorities to fill the slots.


----------



## watcher

gapeach said:


> If a white man said that, he would be arrested and put in jail.
> 
> I agree with you though. If it were reversed there would be plenty of white citizens who would stop it as a good citizen should. That when the violence would likely begin for intefering with them.


Nope, freedom demands we allow people to say things we don't like. Its only when their actions violate another's rights should we stop them.


----------



## watcher

Patchouli said:


> Once again look to your own race because the last time I checked all of the ***********, Neo Nazis and KKK members are not currently sitting in jail.


Just as it should be. I may not like what you say but you have the freedom to say it as much as you wish.


----------



## MO_cows

Patchouli said:


> Once again look to your own race because the last time I checked all of the ***********, Neo Nazis and KKK members are not currently sitting in jail.


If they committed an actual crime and got caught, they are. Glenn Cross Williams is about to find out if he gets the death penalty or life without parole. Cases like his are a good argument to bring back the public hangings in the town square. 

But it isn't a crime, in and of itself, just to be a screwed-up-in-the-head hater. As long as you just run your mouth and don't act on it. And Sharkton and some others should be glad of that, too.


----------



## FarmerKat

Patchouli said:


> Because people like you really believe people should die over a traffic stop because they must be criminals. Kids should die in parks for playing. People should be shot in the back like dogs for running. People shouldn't be safe sleeping in their homes because our militarised police may knock down their doors and kill their children or their dogs.
> 
> They must have deserved it. Your whole post just turns my stomach because I believe you are a decent, caring person and yet you are so blinded to reality that you can justify all these police killings as deserved. And all the bad cops as practically non-existent.
> 
> Posts like this just make me want to sit down and cry.


Posts like this really tick me off ... do you really think that every cop wakes up in the morning thinking "cool, how many people do I get to shoot today?" Then he puts on his uniform, runs radar, pulls over the first car that goes 1 mile over the speed limit, walks up to the car and "bam" - hooray! another speeder dead. And then he goes over to the playground and starts shooting at kids playing. Oh, what fun day being a cop today!.... *Do you REALLY think that is the case?* There may be bad apples among cops (just like in any other profession) but I would be willing to bet all I have that you would not find one (even a bad cop) that feels this way when he gets up in the morning. If that was the case, dead bodies would be lining the roads as every traffic violator is shot to death. Jails would be empty, because everyone who is now in jail would be dead.


----------



## gapeach

Obama needs to come out and say some things that support the police. Policemen have a hard job. When a cop is shot, we don't go out there and march or riot. :grumble:
There are high standards for policemen to ever even get into the academy. 

I'm through trying to get through to dense people.


----------



## Cornhusker

Patchouli said:


> Once again look to your own race because the last time I checked all of the ***********, Neo Nazis and KKK members are not currently sitting in jail.


Not all, but a lot of them are in jail
To say otherwise is just a lie.
Not all Black people are in jail either in case you forgot


----------



## AmericanStand

watcher said:


> Isn't that like saying you shouldn't put your seat belt on unless you were going to do something risky? There are thousands of people who carry a weapon with them every day to almost every place they go. Do these people think they are going to be attacked going to the dollar store? No. They they know as with a seat belt the odds of them needing it are small but when it is needed they are going to need it instantly.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think the large man who had planned on raping my sister would have stood by and waited while she went to her car, opened a safe, removed and loaded her handgun and returned ready to protect herself. Do you? I can tell you what I do know. Having a spunky middle aged woman point a handgun at his chest changed his plan from rape to trying to qualifying for Olympics in the 400 meter dash.



What uniform was your sister wearing ? Does she have mounted weapons in her car ?
Is she a trained law enforcement officer ?
If not then it's not relevant.


----------



## AmericanStand

watcher said:


> Might be that cops around small airports are board and hearing a plane coming in gives them a chance to do something.



Or a quiet place to sleep , read , eat etc.


----------



## AmericanStand

watcher said:


> Anyone who antagonizes an armed man is a FOOL. It doesn't matter if that armed man is wearing a badge or gang tats.



So you find it acceptable not to be able to tell the difference between a gang member and a cop ?

Congratulations you seem to have got your wish.


----------



## AmericanStand

Please don't do this it can get you killed !


watcher said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> Traffic stops at night are very dangerous and the cop is going to be in a higher alert status, you want to make sure you do nothing to make it worse. As soon as you see the lights behind you and you are sure its you he is after slow down and if there's isn't a safe place to stop close put your hazard lights on and slowly drive until you find a safe place. ?



I was once pulled over by a cop that followed me through town and five miles out into the dark country. When his lights came on I slowed to 25 put my four ways on and called 911. With deep ditches and pitch dark it wasn't safe to stop and it was only 4 miles to a well lit truckstop. 
Even though 911 Told him my intentions he coordinated with another officer to collide with me head on.


----------



## watcher

AmericanStand said:


> What uniform was your sister wearing ? Does she have mounted weapons in her car ?
> Is she a trained law enforcement officer ?
> If not then it's not relevant.


So you think that a criminal would stand by and wait for a police officer to retrieve a weapon from his unit?

Do you think the criminal who shot the cop fueling his car wouldn't have shot him if the mean old police man hadn't had a weapon at his side?


----------



## watcher

AmericanStand said:


> So you find it acceptable not to be able to tell the difference between a gang member and a cop ?


I can tell the difference easy. Cops don't slit the throats of rival members. Cops don't drive by and shoot into crowds. Gang members don't have to tell a parent that their 16 y.o. child is dead. Gang members place themselves between danger and strangers.





AmericanStand said:


> Congratulations you seem to have got your wish.


Ticking off nun with a gun would be just as foolish .


----------



## watcher

AmericanStand said:


> Please don't do this it can get you killed !
> 
> 
> 
> I was once pulled over by a cop that followed me through town and five miles out into the dark country. When his lights came on I slowed to 25 put my four ways on and called 911. With deep ditches and pitch dark it wasn't safe to stop and it was only 4 miles to a well lit truckstop.
> Even though 911 Told him my intentions he coordinated with another officer to collide with me head on.


And how much did you receive from the civil suit?


----------



## Patchouli

gapeach said:


> Those people do not march on the streets like Black Lives Matter does.
> 
> What are white people supposed to do, go to Klan Rallies and and confront them? No,.......I don't think so...........
> When they break the law, they are arrested if they are caught by the police.
> 
> I really don't keep up with them. I am as afraid of those crazy nuts as I am the looney rioters and the looters and the ones who want to put pigs in a blanket & fry em' up brown.


They have marched multiple times in the last year. The only way you are not seeing them is by closing your eyes. 

Here's a question for you: how do you feel about the cops who have recently been outed as KKK members? 



> The police chief of Lake Arthur, La., is demanding the resignation of a detective who was a member of the Ku Klux Klan in 2014 when he attended an anti-immigration rally in North Carolina.
> 
> 
> 
> If Det. Raymond Mott -- now on leave without pay -- doesn&#8217;t resign by Wednesday, Lake Arthur Police Chief Police Chief Ray Marcantel says he will ask the town council to fire the officer for being a Klan member and attending the rally.
> The detective has made more recent arrests than any other officer with the tiny Lake Arthur Police Department, and now those cases are under review for possible bias, given Mott&#8217;s involvement with the KKK, officials say.


https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2015/09/01/police-chief-demands-resignation-kkk-cop

*



KKK membership sinks 2 Florida cops

Click to expand...

*


> Echoing the once-segregated South, a Florida deputy police chief has resigned and an officer has been fired after the FBI reported that both belonged to the Ku Klux KlanFruitland Park Deputy Chief David Borst has denied involvement with the notorious white-hooded hate group that emerged after the Civil War and continued to terrorize and murder blacks through the mid-20th century.
> 
> 
> *It the second time in five years that Klansmen have been found in the Fruitland Park Police Department. In 2009, Officer James Elkins resigned after photographs showed him in a white robe and pointy hood, and he later admitted he was a leader of the local KKK.*


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/07/14/florid-police-kkk/12645555/



> Two Anniston, Alabama police officers have been placed on leave, after ties to the white supremacist group League of the South were made public earlier this week. The two cops, Anniston police Lieutenants, Josh Doggrell and Wayne Brown, were identified as members of the hate group by Southern Poverty Law Center&#8217;s Hatewatch on June 17.
> During a League of the South convention, Doggrell took to the podium to express how good it was to be among people that &#8220;think like we do.&#8221; He also told members that he&#8217;s working on getting more people to come around to &#8220;our way of thinking.&#8221; He then went on to address the audience, made up of white, southern racists who are devoted to the idea of &#8220;a natural society order of superiors and subordinates&#8221; described as the &#8220;Anglo-Celtic elite, that would establish a &#8216;Christian&#8217; theocratic state that would dominate Blacks and other minorities.&#8221;


http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/06/18/josh-doggrell-white-supremacy-speech-caught-on-camera-video/


----------



## Evons hubby

Patches, I have to ask, and please forgive if you already answered this as I haven't followed all of your posts.... Have you ever served your community in the capacity of a law enforcement officer? The relevance of this question should be obvious from the standpoint of walking in the other fellers shoes. I have never been a cop, but at one point in my life I did do some "bounty hunting" for bondsmen. I have experienced what it really means to enter the unknown as to just who or what awaits on the other side of that door. Our Leo's face that same situation every time they turn on those blue lights for the most minor traffic offense. Or when called out for even a domestic dispute. A few years back one of our local deputies was called out for a domestic issue, the man came out of the house with shot gun in hand. Our deputy did his best to talk to the man and get him to lay the shotgun down and discuss the problem rationally. The gentleman wasnt having any, raised the shotgun aiming it at the deputy... That ended badly. A new widow and a good deputy resigning his job because he couldn't deal with the requirements of his job. I find it amazing there are not many more incidences of cops killing perps than there is. Are there bad cops? Of that I am sure, but overall I am pretty sure there are far more good ones. Else the number of police related abuses would be far greater than it is.


----------



## Tricky Grama

I'm sure most have thought about what its like to be in cops shoes...but have not really experienced it. Even if you are doing 'ride alongs' you don't truly know exactly.

But, Patch, you continue to say you have story after story after story. That really doesn't matter. 
Until you post credible links of the stats on how many black people have been shot by cops vs/ whites, how many cops have been shot by those either in the act of arrest/duty, you do not know what you're speaking of here. Its meaningless. Its like if I said I know of 2 who've been hassled by cops so all cops here are corrupt.


----------



## AmericanStand

watcher said:


> So you think that a criminal would stand by and wait for a police officer to retrieve a weapon from his unit?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think the criminal who shot the cop fueling his car wouldn't have shot him if the mean old police man hadn't had a weapon at his side?



Apparently I don't think cops are as stupid as you think they are. 
I think after being told to respond to a robbery with a hostage situation most cops would exit their vehicle with a weapon. 

As for the fueling cop I'm not familiar with the situation but it's obvious that having a gun didn't stop him from being shot at and there's a chance that not having one would have.


----------



## AmericanStand

watcher said:


> I can tell the difference easy. Cops don't slit the throats of rival members. Cops don't drive by and shoot into crowds. Gang members don't have to tell a parent that their 16 y.o. child is dead. Gang members place themselves between danger and strangers.
> 
> 
> 
> Ticking off nun with a gun would be just as foolish .



Wow wrong on each count. 

Except for one, you are right gang members do place themselves between danger and strangers. 

Please don't take this as a endorsement of gangs on the whole I don't think they are a positive force in the community.


----------



## k9

Like cops always know what they are walking into before hand.....


----------



## AmericanStand

watcher said:


> And how much did you receive from the civil suit?



Just how much do you think a civil suit against two lying cops backed up by a lying police force would return with 12 people like you on the jury would return ?


----------



## Cornhusker

AmericanStand said:


> Apparently I don't think cops are as stupid as you think they are.
> I think after being told to respond to a robbery with a hostage situation most cops would exit their vehicle with a weapon.
> 
> As for the fueling cop I'm not familiar with the situation but it's obvious that having a gun didn't stop him from being shot at and there's a chance that not having one would have.


I'm not sure how you can not be familiar with the Texas deputy who was gunned down while fueling his car.
Security video shows a man coming up behind the deputy, shooting him in the back, then shooting him several more times after he fell.
It was an assassination, and whether the cop had a gun or not would have made no difference.
The killer was a coward, and many believe he was inspired by the BLM movement and their call to kill cops.
Of course there are some who don't believe BLM inspired him and that he just suddenly decided to get off his couch and go shoot a cop.
Here's the story


----------



## AmericanStand

k9 said:


> Like cops always know what they are walking into before hand.....



They do in situation under discussion. 

In most cases they have a general idea.


----------



## FarmerKat

AmericanStand said:


> Please don't do this it can get you killed !
> 
> 
> 
> I was once pulled over by a cop that followed me through town and five miles out into the dark country. When his lights came on I slowed to 25 put my four ways on and called 911. With deep ditches and pitch dark it wasn't safe to stop and it was only 4 miles to a well lit truckstop.
> Even though 911 Told him my intentions he coordinated with another officer to collide with me head on.


Why would a cop intentionally get into a head on collision? If a police officer intentionally attempted to kill you by hitting your vehicle head on, why would he risk his own life or health? They could have used stop sticks or set up a blockade if they felt it you had to be stopped.


----------



## k9

AmericanStand said:


> They do in situation under discussion.
> 
> In most cases they have a general idea.


Shows how much you don't know.


----------



## k9

AS... why don't you go sign up and show them all how it's done, don't just waste your talent talking about it.


----------



## AmericanStand

Cornhusker said:


> I'm not sure how you can not be familiar with the Texas deputy who was gunned down while fueling his car.
> 
> Security video shows a man coming up behind the deputy, shooting him in the back, then shooting him several more times after he fell.
> 
> It was an assassination, and whether the cop had a gun or not would have made no difference.
> ]



It's easy not to be familiar with something , miss the report , or not find it interesting enough to spend time looking it up. 

But I appreciate you explaining some of the details. 

I see you mostly agree with me about that the gun didn't help. 

Do you think there is any chance that if he hadn't had a gun the shooter would have looked for another target. After all a part of the BLM thing is rage about cops SHOOTING blacks. He didn't shoot a meter maid after all.


----------



## AmericanStand

FarmerKat said:


> Why would a cop intentionally get into a head on collision? If a police officer intentionally attempted to kill you by hitting your vehicle head on, why would he risk his own life or health? They could have used stop sticks or set up a blockade if they felt it you had to be stopped.



I asked exactly that question.


----------



## AmericanStand

k9 said:


> AS... why don't you go sign up and show them all how it's done, don't just waste your talent talking about it.



Really ? Your addition to the conversation is that ?

I'm already busy trying to solve world hunger I don't have time.


----------



## Cornhusker

AmericanStand said:


> It's easy not to be familiar with something , miss the report , or not find it interesting enough to spend time looking it up.
> 
> But I appreciate you explaining some of the details.
> 
> I see you mostly agree with me about that the gun didn't help.
> 
> Do you think there is any chance that if he hadn't had a gun the shooter would have looked for another target. After all a part of the BLM thing is rage about cops SHOOTING blacks. He didn't shoot a meter maid after all.


When a coward sneaks up behind someone, it wouldn't have mattered if he had a bazooka.
Guns themselves can't defend you, just like they can't attack you
Some one has to point them downrange and pull the trigger.
BLM isn't calling for the murder of meter maids, they are calling for the murder of police.
He was killed for the uniform he wore, not the gun on his belt.


----------



## Cornhusker

AmericanStand said:


> Really ? Your addition to the conversation is that ?
> 
> I'm already busy trying to solve world hunger I don't have time.


I'll take biscuits and sausage gravy...side of bacon and 2 eggs over easy


----------



## AmericanStand

Why is it BLM ?
I thought the word Black was out of vogue (perhaps because of it's association with the African word Niger that means the same.) shouldn't it be AALM ?


----------



## AmericanStand

Cornhusker said:


> When a coward sneaks up behind someone, it wouldn't have mattered if he had a bazooka.
> 
> Guns themselves can't defend you, just like they can't attack you
> 
> Some one has to point them downrange and pull the trigger.
> 
> BLM isn't calling for the murder of meter maids, they are calling for the murder of police.
> 
> He was killed for the uniform he wore, not the gun on his belt.


 I think your probably right.


----------



## k9

AS how do you find time to post on here if you are solving world hunger? Seems like a pretty tall order.


----------



## Cornhusker

AmericanStand said:


> Why is it BLM ?
> I thought the word Black was out of vogue (perhaps because of it's association with the African word Niger that means the same.) shouldn't it be AALM ?


Hard to keep up isn't it?
What's acceptable today will be offensive tomorrow.


----------



## Cornhusker

k9 said:


> AS how do you find time to post on here if you are solving world hunger? Seems like a pretty tall order.


Speaking of order, could I get some coffee with mine?


----------



## AmericanStand

Cornhusker said:


> I'll take biscuits and sausage gravy...side of bacon and 2 eggs over easy



Lol no no don't get us started on a discussion of the right way to make biscuits and gravy. That sorta thing could really cause some violence on this forum !

But that's the morning special in town at the cafe come on over I will buy and we can discuss it's merits.


----------



## AmericanStand

k9 said:


> AS how do you find time to post on here if you are solving world hunger? Seems like a pretty tall order.



I work it in while I'm in the little room attending to paperwork.


----------



## cfuhrer

AmericanStand said:


> Why is it BLM ?
> I thought the word Black was out of vogue (perhaps because of it's association with the African word Niger that means the same.) shouldn't it be AALM ?


Not all blacks are african.


----------



## Evons hubby

cfuhrer said:


> Not all blacks are african.


Yep. I would hazard a guess that very few of the blacks in this BLM movement have ever set foot in Africa.


----------



## Nevada

cfuhrer said:


> Not all blacks are african.


And not all Africans are black.

Particularly in Egypt, European traders settled in the Nile delta area, in and around Alexandria, going back many generations. Fair skinned Egyptians can be found all over the region today.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Cornhusker said:


> When a coward sneaks up behind someone, it wouldn't have mattered if he had a bazooka.
> Guns themselves can't defend you, just like they can't attack you
> Some one has to point them downrange and pull the trigger.
> BLM isn't calling for the murder of meter maids, they are calling for the murder of police.
> He was killed for the uniform he wore, not the gun on his belt.


Post of the year award.


----------



## Cornhusker

cfuhrer said:


> Not all blacks are african.


Not all Africans are black


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Patches, I have to ask, and please forgive if you already answered this as I haven't followed all of your posts.... Have you ever served your community in the capacity of a law enforcement officer? The relevance of this question should be obvious from the standpoint of walking in the other fellers shoes. I have never been a cop, but at one point in my life I did do some "bounty hunting" for bondsmen. I have experienced what it really means to enter the unknown as to just who or what awaits on the other side of that door. Our Leo's face that same situation every time they turn on those blue lights for the most minor traffic offense. Or when called out for even a domestic dispute. *A few years back one of our local deputies was called out for a domestic issue, the man came out of the house with shot gun in hand. Our deputy did his best to talk to the man and get him to lay the shotgun down and discuss the problem rationally. The gentleman wasnt having any, raised the shotgun aiming it at the deputy... That ended badly. * A new widow and a good deputy resigning his job because he couldn't deal with the requirements of his job. I find it amazing there are not many more incidences of cops killing perps than there is. Are there bad cops? Of that I am sure, but overall I am pretty sure there are far more good ones. Else the number of police related abuses would be far greater than it is.


Nope just military. And it's not like I don't sympathise with the Police and the toughness of their jobs. But your post is a perfect example of what policing should look like but no longer does. Today the police walk in and shoot you and then find out you weren't really a criminal afterwards. No attempt to talk to people, judge the situation, etc. 

Here's one for you and again you always come back with these are isolated incidences and they are NOT. Which is why I keep saying I could post them all day long. 

http://news.yahoo.com/investigators-georgia-officer-likely-shot-other-officers-145410367.html



> ATLANTA (AP) â A man shot by police officers who went to the wrong Atlanta house ran bleeding outside where a neighbor heard him asking, "Why did they come in my house? Why did they shoot me? Why did they shoot my dog?"
> 
> 
> 
> It happened Monday night when officers arrived at the wrong Atlanta address after a report of suspicious activity, shot homeowner Christopher McKinley, killed his dog and "likely" shot a fellow officer, leaving him seriously wounded, authorities said Tuesday.
> The bloody misunderstanding began when DeKalb County police received a report of a possible burglary at a one-story residence near an intersection in southeast Atlanta. Lacking an exact address, the officers were sent in the dark to a neighborhood where many of the single-story homes look similar.
> Three officers found a home they thought matched a description provided by a 911 caller, but were unable to make contact with anyone inside, according to a statement from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. They entered the home through an unlocked rear door and two officers fired their guns at a dog, killing it.
> ------
> 
> 
> 
> Colson said her neighbor had a bullet wound a couple of inches above his right knee.
> She said she knelt beside him in the yard and used a shirt to staunch the bleeding as he told her what happened.
> "He told me they were in the house watching television when they heard something in the backyard," Colson said. "The husband gets up to check, opens the door and he just sees shooting. He gets hit and his dog is dead."
> 
> 
> -------
> Derek Perez told The AP that he reported the suspicious person, but at a different house than the one police entered. He said he was walking his dog when he saw a man knock on a neighbor's door and then just stand in the yard. He said he then heard a loud noise, a dog barking and didn't see the man anymore. There had been break-ins in the neighborhood recently, so he called 911, he said.


----------



## Patchouli

Tricky Grama said:


> I'm sure most have thought about what its like to be in cops shoes...but have not really experienced it. Even if you are doing 'ride alongs' you don't truly know exactly.
> 
> But, Patch, you continue to say you have story after story after story. That really doesn't matter.
> Until you post credible links of the stats on how many black people have been shot by cops vs/ whites, how many cops have been shot by those either in the act of arrest/duty, you do not know what you're speaking of here. Its meaningless. Its like if I said I know of 2 who've been hassled by cops so all cops here are corrupt.


Well first there are no stats because no one has to keep stats. Federal law does not force anyone to do so and guess what no police dept is going to keep stats that make them look bad if they don't have to do so. Would you?

Second these are not anecdotes these are legitimate news stories with investigations and descriptions of what happened. It isn't like what you people keep doing telling me about how some cop you know says this or that.


----------



## Patchouli

AmericanStand said:


> It's easy not to be familiar with something , miss the report , or not find it interesting enough to spend time looking it up.
> 
> But I appreciate you explaining some of the details.
> 
> I see you mostly agree with me about that the gun didn't help.
> 
> Do you think there is any chance that if he hadn't had a gun the shooter would have looked for another target. After all a part of the BLM thing is rage about cops SHOOTING blacks. He didn't shoot a meter maid after all.



The man was insane. He had a history of mental illness. He has not said why he shot the cop. It's quite possible he had a psychotic break considering his actions after the shooting.


----------



## Evons hubby

I have never denied that cops are people or that people do make mistakes. There is a reason they put erasers on pencils. How about searching some stats sometime... Compare the number of incidents such as the one above in the U.S. In any given year with the number of cops on duty during the same period. I am fairly certain you will find cops in general have a very good average when it comes to errors made on their jobs. As others have pointed out its not like they get up in the morning saying to themselves "oh boy, I wonder how many innocent bystanders I get to shoot today."


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I have never denied that cops are people or that people do make mistakes. There is a reason they put erasers on pencils. How about searching some stats sometime... Compare the number of incidents such as the one above in the U.S. In any given year with the number of cops on duty during the same period. I am fairly certain you will find cops in general have a very good average when it comes to errors made on their jobs. As others have pointed out its not like they get up in the morning saying to themselves "oh boy, I wonder how many innocent bystanders I get to shoot today."



Well first there are no stats because no one has to keep stats. Federal law does not force anyone to do so and guess what no police dept is going to keep stats that make them look bad if they don't have to do so. Would you?

I don't understand why you can't wrap your head around the fact that the cops are becoming more violent. They shoot first and ask questions later. Have you seen the video of Sandra Bland? That police officer was a po'd officious jerk from start to finish. Have you seen the video of people in jail cells beaten? Punched? Stripped? Left to die, to starve or to die from dehydration? Now that there are cameras everywhere we are started to see the reality behind what really happens. And we are finding out Police officers have been lying through their teeth and their departments have been covering up for them. 

So to answer your question of do I think cops wake up and wonder how many people they get to shoot today? No for the vast majority. But do I think there are a lot of cops that are stressed out, over worked and underpaid, poorly trained or received their training in the military where the objectives are vastly different, yes absolutely. 

Do I think a lot of departments got away with mistreating citizens for a long time? Yes I do. Do I think they felt justified in that treatment because it was a means to an end? Absolutely. Does that make it right? Does that make it okay to trample our civil liberties? Absolutely not.


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> Well first there are no stats because no one has to keep stats. Federal law does not force anyone to do so and guess what no police dept is going to keep stats that make them look bad if they don't have to do so. Would you?
> 
> I don't understand why you can't wrap your head around the fact that the cops are becoming more violent. They shoot first and ask questions later.


The Feds do keep stats, one of these times I will pull some up for you when I am using my computer instead of this handipad. Cops have always shot first and asked questions later when presented with a situation where their own life appears to be threatened..... Pretty much like you or I would. Their line of work puts them in that position a lot. We also hear about these events a lot more than we used to. The press likes the ratings. Twenty years ago you would hear about such things in a local news paper. Today every time something happens it hits everyone around the world in the face within minutes.


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The Feds do keep stats, one of these times I will pull some up for you when I am using my computer instead of this handipad. Cops have always shot first and asked questions later when presented with a situation where their own life appears to be threatened..... Pretty much like you or I would.


The feds keep stats but police departments are not required to report theirs. So the stats are worthless. 


> If a police officer fatally shoots an unarmed citizen in the United States â and it was happening on average more than twice a day even before the killing of Michael Brown seven months ago in Ferguson, Missouri â most people find out about it not from law enforcement but from the 24-hour news cycle.
> 
> 
> 
> The best counts America currently has of killings by police are the work of activists and journalists â online databases like Fatal Encounters, Facebook compilations like Killed By Police, or Operation Ghetto Storm, which estimates that one African American is killed by police, security guards or vigilantes at least âevery 28 hoursâ.
> 
> 
> ----
> 
> 
> But transparent police departments are by no means the norm: the United States has no uniform count of people killed by police officers. The problem of missing data stems from more than just police obstructionism or oversight. A national infrastructure for data collection has never been built. Instead a confusing mosaic of city, state and county reporting leaves too many cracks for data to fall through, without imposing consequences for local police failing to report when they kill those they are sworn to protect.
> âThe reality is that there is not a good national data â or even a regional, state or local data on officer-involved shootings,â Laurie Robinson, a professor of criminology at George Mason University and co-chair of Barack Obamaâs task force on community policing, told the Guardian.
> 
> 
> -----
> 
> 
> A justice department investigation of the FBIâs published statistics has already revealed the worst from a data standpoint: more than half the people killed by local and state law enforcement officers in the US went uncounted in the countryâs most authoritative crime statistics every year, for almost a decade.


http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/21/police-killings-us-government-statistics

Can I ask you an honest question? How much time have you put into researching this issue? Because it should be clear by now I hope that have sunk a lot of time into it.


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> The feds keep stats but police departments are not required to report theirs. So the stats are worthless.
> http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/21/police-killings-us-government-statistics
> 
> Can I ask you an honest question? How much time have you put into researching this issue? Because it should be clear by now I hope that have sunk a lot of time into it.


A lot longer than any of those who are stirring this current pot most likely.


----------



## FarmerKat

Just out of curiosity ... those of you who have low opinion of law enforcement ... if a crime is committed against you (say, someone burglarizes your home), do you call the police or do you just deal with it on your own?


----------



## Evons hubby

Now may I ask you a question? If there are no accurate stats available how are these "watchdogs" coming up with their numbers of uncounted deaths by cops?


----------



## FarmerKat

AmericanStand said:


> Just how much do you think a civil suit against two lying cops backed up by a lying police force would return with 12 people like you on the jury would return ?


Even if the cops lied ... would there not be medical evidence from the paramedics & ER doctors? (Head on collision likely resulted in injuries to both you and the cop involved in it.) Obviously, since you know that the two cops coordinated their attack on you, you & your lawyer must have had some evidence - radio traffic, cell phone records, etc. 

LEOs typically get dismissed if called for jury duty for concerns of bias. Family members of LEOs often get dismissed for same reasons. Do you think that every single person on the jury is too stupid not to see through lies if there is evidence to the contrary?


----------



## gibbsgirl

FarmerKat said:


> Just out of curiosity ... those of you who have low opinion of law enforcement ... if a crime is committed against you (say, someone burglarizes your home), do you call the police or do you just deal with it on your own?


I won't say we would never call the cops. You never know. But, we do avoid having anything to do with interacting with cops. That includes for emergencies, events where lots of cops will be, even families we avoid socializing with because someone is a cop.

I'm not trying to villify all cops, I'm just answering your question honestly because you asked. And, I'm one who has a low opinion of them.

I don't think they are all bad. My opinions, and our families aversion to them, is based entirely on the fact that some are bad. There's no one just a phone call away that we've ever found who can help you if a bad one needs to be stopped. And, I've not ever determined how to tell on-site a good one from a bad one. So, with a t being an unknown, we just try and avoid the potential conflicts.

It doesn't mean I wish bad things to happen to cops. Heck I don't even think that some criminals deserve some bad things that happen to them. 

I imagine it's hard to hear someone be critical of cops if they have a loved one that's a cop. My feelings are not meant to be a personal attack. I don't believe they're all bad. Heck, I don't even like to speculate how many are bad.

I don't know what the solution is. I'm sure there isn't a perfect one. But, in the last thirty years or so, my opinion has only gotten lower.


----------



## AmericanStand

Yvonne's hubby said:


> . As others have pointed out its not like they get up in the morning saying to themselves "oh boy, I wonder how many innocent bystanders I get to shoot today."



Nope but some get up thinking "I'm not gonna put up with any poop today "


----------



## Evons hubby

AmericanStand said:


> Nope but some get up thinking "I'm not gonna put up with any poop today "


As it should be every day.  cops should not have to put up with poop any day. I have feeling most of these yahoos doing the whining about those evil cops fail to show them even the minimum level of respect.


----------



## Cornhusker

I find it sad that people no longer trust cops.
Sure, some cops are to blame, but by and large, I blame the media and racist hate groups such as the aforementioned BLM and NAACP.
Maybe it's just the police we put up with.
We've had a few bad cops, absolute jerks, but they don't last long.
We've had some really good ones, and that's normal for us.
These guys put their lives on the line every day, and the guy they throw in jail today, his wife and kids might get a care package from the cops involved.
I have some very good friends who are cops, and most, not all, but most would give their own life to save others.
For the most part, the cops I've known are some of the kindest people you'll ever meet.
I've had my run-ins with the law, and with 2 exceptions, I pretty much deserved what I got, and probably more.


----------



## Cornhusker

Yvonne's hubby said:


> As it should be every day.  cops should not have to put up with poop any day. I have feeling most of these yahoos doing the whining about those evil cops fail to show them even the minimum level of respect.


Exactly
You don't have to be the head cashier at Wal-Mart to know that if you are decent to the cops, they will be decent back.
Cooperate, obey the law, follow their instructions, and they won't knock you down and stand on your neck :cowboy:


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Now may I ask you a question? If there are no accurate stats available how are these "watchdogs" coming up with their numbers of uncounted deaths by cops?


It's in the post. They collect news stories.


----------



## FarmerKat

gibbsgirl said:


> I won't say we would never call the cops. You never know. But, we do avoid having anything to do with interacting with cops. That includes for emergencies, events where lots of cops will be, even families we avoid socializing with because someone is a cop.
> 
> I'm not trying to villify all cops, I'm just answering your question honestly because you asked. And, I'm one who has a low opinion of them.
> 
> I don't think they are all bad. My opinions, and our families aversion to them, is based entirely on the fact that some are bad. There's no one just a phone call away that we've ever found who can help you if a bad one needs to be stopped. And, I've not ever determined how to tell on-site a good one from a bad one. So, with a t being an unknown, we just try and avoid the potential conflicts.
> 
> It doesn't mean I wish bad things to happen to cops. Heck I don't even think that some criminals deserve some bad things that happen to them.
> 
> I imagine it's hard to hear someone be critical of cops if they have a loved one that's a cop. My feelings are not meant to be a personal attack. I don't believe they're all bad. Heck, I don't even like to speculate how many are bad.
> 
> I don't know what the solution is. I'm sure there isn't a perfect one. But, in the last thirty years or so, my opinion has only gotten lower.


Thanks for answering  I don't take the criticism as a personal attack but it is hard to hear - especially when people generalize (you know, when things are said along the lines "every cop is liar, every cop is on a power trip, " etc.)


----------



## Patchouli

FarmerKat said:


> Just out of curiosity ... those of you who have low opinion of law enforcement ... if a crime is committed against you (say, someone burglarizes your home), do you call the police or do you just deal with it on your own?


I am not sure if I should respond since I don't have a low opinion of law enforcement. I have a measured opinion. Plenty of PDs are doing just fine protecting their citizens from crime and protecting their rights and not killing any of them at traffic stops. The one here in my county does an excellent job and I have no qualms about calling them. I also support them any way I can.


----------



## Cornhusker

Patchouli said:


> I am not sure if I should respond since I don't have a low opinion of law enforcement. I have a measured opinion. Plenty of PDs are doing just fine protecting their citizens from crime and protecting their rights and not killing any of them at traffic stops. The one here in my county does an excellent job and I have no qualms about calling them. I also support them any way I can.


If a cop is attacked, what should he do?


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> It's in the post. They collect news stories.


The articles I read says they use several sources. Cdc, fbi and Doj numbers along with news reports. I am quite sure there are no overlaps involved. As in counting the same incidents twice. Once from a cdc report and again from a newspaper report.


----------



## Evons hubby

Cornhusker said:


> If a cop is attacked, what should he do?


Call a citizen


----------



## Patchouli

Cornhusker said:


> If a cop is attacked, what should he do?


Define attacked. Because in all of the cases I am talking about the cops were not attacked. Is running away an attack? Is asking why you need to put out your cigarette at a traffic stop an attack? In playing in a park an attack?


----------



## Cornhusker

Patchouli said:


> Define attacked. Because in all of the cases I am talking about the cops were not attacked. Is running away an attack? Is asking why you need to put out your cigarette at a traffic stop an attack? In playing in a park an attack?


You know better than that


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> Define attacked. Because in all of the cases I am talking about the cops were not attacked. Is running away an attack? Is asking why you need to put out your cigarette at a traffic stop an attack? In playing in a park an attack?


Your first two are definite lack of respect issues, the last a perceived threat..... Something about a toy gun as I recall.


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Your first two are definite lack of respect issues, the last a perceived threat..... Something about a toy gun as I recall.


Oh so it's cool for cops to shoot people for disrespecting them in your book then eh? Wow. 

The kid with the toy gun was in a PARK and the cop shot him in the BACK 2 seconds after arrival at said PARK. But sure he was scared to death and felt threatened. Whatever.


----------



## Patchouli

You guys can say what you want about me but bending over backwards to defend cops killing innocent citizens is pretty freaking mind blowing to me.


----------



## Cornhusker

Patchouli said:


> You guys can say what you want about me but bending over backwards to defend cops killing innocent citizens is pretty freaking mind blowing to me.


Bending over backwards to defend cop killing blows my mind


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> You guys can say what you want about me but bending over backwards to defend cops killing innocent citizens is pretty freaking mind blowing to me.


Nobody is defending any cop who shoots an innocent citizen. Just saying it is pretty rare. I've agreed all along that mistakes get made, are you willing to admit that in the vast majority of cases that a cop discharges their fire arm they are indeed justified?


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Patchouli said:


> Oh so it's cool for cops to shoot people for disrespecting them in your book then eh? Wow.
> 
> The kid with the toy gun was in a PARK and the cop shot him in the BACK 2 seconds after arrival at said PARK. But sure he was scared to death and felt threatened. Whatever.


You might could contact all the area PD's and tell them if they get a gun call ,you would be willing to volunteer to go disarm them . If it turns out to be a toy great if not ,they may need another volunteer next time . Stupidity is what got that kid killed ,same thing if you volunteer and are wrong sometimes you only get to be wrong one time .


----------



## Nevada

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Nobody is defending any cop who shoots an innocent citizen.


Actually, cops are. They stand by their own. Except in the case of undeniable evidence, they'll defend the cop on his word.


----------



## Cornhusker

Nevada said:


> Actually, cops are. They stand by their own. Except in the case of undeniable evidence, they'll defend the cop on his word.


Kinda like you guys defend Obama on his word? :hysterical:

It's normal to stand by your colleagues until proven guilty.


----------



## Cornhusker

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Nobody is defending any cop who shoots an innocent citizen. Just saying it is pretty rare. I've agreed all along that mistakes get made, are you willing to admit that in the vast majority of cases that a cop discharges their fire arm they are indeed justified?


The thing the cop haters seem to miss is that even bad cops don't want to shoot anybody
Why would they?
Even if they don't value human life, it's still a hard thing to go through, all the investigations, the liberal spin and the death threats for their families.


----------



## Nevada

Cornhusker said:


> It's normal to stand by your colleagues until proven guilty.


I was pretty disappointed to see that the second cop in the North Charleston shooting didn't say anything about shooter cop dropping a taser by the body. I thought he would be called out for allowing a cop to drop a weapon, but I never saw anything in the news.

If we allow them to cover up wrongdoing then this sort of thing will only get worse.


----------



## gibbsgirl

I may not word this perfectly, but here goes.

There's just too many things cops are looking for people to do wrong these days I think. And, the unconstitutional (I believe much is) survellience capabilities are only compounding that.

Also, things like road stop places, random searches at schools, stop and frisk, etc.

I think it is an invitation to them riding rough shod over the public. And, that isn't good for the ones who are already amped up looking for anyone who gives any sign of a challenge.

There are also cops who will lie and intimidate to force people into submission. I know plenty of cops aren't interested in hauling people in to do all the paperwork that comes with an arrest. But, there's plenty that do and charges do not stick.

Cops are just the front line in a judicial system that has become highly invasive and corrupt and dysfunctional IMO. I don't wish them to be killed.

But, I will say, I hope the law enforcement agencies are able to evolve into something that people who fear them can find a way to believe in them being a help instead of a danger.

I don't wish them to be in danger. But, they are volunteering to be and since they are given authority beyond regular citizens, I do believe they should be held to a higher standard beyond regular citizens.

I don't think there's a ton of stuff I find awesome about the blm movement. But, if the campaign zero movement is directing its focus on police agencies, I do think that is a step in the right direction, (not physically hurting cops). 

It seems to me that is better than directing it to looting and rioting and destroying cities. We watched a fair amount of the Ferguson riots on ustream to see it live last year. I was disgusted by the people destroying the town. I supported the people who protested outside the police dept and politician offices. I felt like that was at least logical. If they want to demand changes at least those folks were taking their demands to the people in the community who should have been accountable.

I think the Ferguson kid was bad news. But, the protesting there vs rioting was my point in citing those events.


----------



## AmericanStand

So you kill some one for a little disrespect ?
I'm sorry a servant should show respect not kill Because he doesn't get it.


----------



## Nevada

Cornhusker said:


> The thing the cop haters seem to miss is that even bad cops don't want to shoot anybody
> Why would they?


I suppose the reasons vary with the cop and the situation. Lost temper, can't handle disrespect, or maybe just plain racist.


----------



## AmericanStand

Sawmill Jim said:


> You might could contact all the area PD's and tell them if they get a gun call ,you would be willing to volunteer to go disarm them . If it turns out to be a toy great if not ,they may need another volunteer next time . Stupidity is what got that kid killed ,same thing if you volunteer and are wrong sometimes you only get to be wrong one time .



Stupidity ? A little kid playing in a park is stupid ?
O my did he forget to grovel and kiss the cops feet ?
Yep I guess we should just kill any kid that's dumb enough to play.


----------



## gapeach

Nevada said:


> I suppose the reasons vary with the cop and the situation. Lost temper, can't handle disrespect, or maybe just plain racist.


*White Cops Aren't Victimizing Black Youth*

*By* *Jack Kelly *December 7, 2014 

Jermaine Jones, 29, was gunned down in the street on the outskirts of Ferguson, Mo., Oct. 18, a few hours after his sister, Margaree Dixson, 35, had been shot half a mile away.
If this is the first you&#8217;ve heard about these murders, it&#8217;s because their killers also were black.
&#8220;Black deaths matter only if the killer is a white cop,&#8221; said Italian journalist Enza Ferrerri.
Which doesn&#8217;t happen very often. Of 1,265 murder victims in St. Louis between 2003 and 2012, *1,138 (89.9 percent) were black*, according to University of Missouri-St. Louis criminologist David Klinger, a former police officer.


Read more: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...imizing_black_youth_124882.html#ixzz3kp9mTSUD 

​
Uh,Uh......that is just not so............


----------



## Sawmill Jim

AmericanStand said:


> Stupidity ? A little kid playing in a park is stupid ?
> O my did he forget to grovel and kiss the cops feet ?
> Yep I guess we should just kill any kid that's dumb enough to play.


Lot of stupid for sure now days ,would you wait till anyone with a gun shot at you first .I can see you don't care who anyone shoots at as long as it an't you .

You play with guns now days toy or otherwise in a public place borders on insanity now days . If you are a parent and let your child wonder around with a gun handle hanging out of your kids waist band, you may be insane too . Size of a kid don't matter ,no more than the caliber of the gun .No all the kid had to do was drop the gun at first sight of the cops and move away from it .

Maybe instead of playing thug in the park he should been playing at the advanced degree in theology he was studying for .:bash:


----------



## Evons hubby

Nevada said:


> Actually, cops are. They stand by their own. Except in the case of undeniable evidence, they'll defend the cop on his word.


So they take a cops word when there is no evidence of wrong doing..... I would hope they would take my word too if I am ever suspected of a crime and there is no evidence of my guilt.... We used to call that "innocent until proven guilty".


----------



## Nevada

Yvonne's hubby said:


> So they take a cops word when there is no evidence of wrong doing..... I would hope they would take my word too if I am ever suspected of a crime and there is no evidence of my guilt.... We used to call that "innocent until proven guilty".


I'm not talking about "innocent until proven guilty." I'm talking about a cop seeing another cop plant a weapon next to a dead suspect and keep his mouth shut. That's what I mean by standing by their own.


----------



## gibbsgirl

I hate it, whether it's applying it to cops or anybody, but there's an awful lot of innocent until proven guilty that for all practical purposes no longer exists.

The vast majority of guilt or innocence is frighteningly no longer determined by trial and evidence for everybody.


----------



## Evons hubby

Nevada said:


> I'm not talking about "innocent until proven guilty." I'm talking about a cop seeing another cop plant a weapon next to a dead suspect and keep his mouth shut. That's what I mean by standing by their own.


Have any evidence beyond old movies to support that theory? If so I am sure internal affairs in that jurisdiction would love to hear about it.


----------



## Patchouli

Cornhusker said:


> Bending over backwards to defend cop killing blows my mind


When you actually see someone do that please do let us know..... :yawn:


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Nobody is defending any cop who shoots an innocent citizen. Just saying it is pretty rare. I've agreed all along that mistakes get made, are you willing to admit that in the vast majority of cases that a cop discharges their fire arm they are indeed justified?


Nope. Because innocent citizens getting killed is sadly not rare. And cops firing their guns before using other methods to diffuse the situation is definitely on the rise.


----------



## Patchouli

Sawmill Jim said:


> You might could contact all the area PD's and tell them if they get a gun call ,you would be willing to volunteer to go disarm them . If it turns out to be a toy great if not ,they may need another volunteer next time . Stupidity is what got that kid killed ,same thing if you volunteer and are wrong sometimes you only get to be wrong one time .



It's now stupid to be a kid in a park playing with a toy gun. Really? 

See this is what I am talking about defending cops for killing innocent kids and blaming the victim. So don't try telling me "we don't defend bad cops" because oh yes you most certainly do. :flame:


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> Nope. Because innocent citizens getting killed is sadly not rare. And cops firing their guns before using other methods to diffuse the situation is definitely on the rise.


How can we know this? There are no stats to deny nor confirm remember? Ya can't have it both ways.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> So they take a cops word when there is no evidence of wrong doing..... I would hope they would take my word too if I am ever suspected of a crime and there is no evidence of my guilt.... We used to call that "innocent until proven guilty".


One little town near here ,you are guilty till judged ,the cops white the laws and the judge enforces them . Unless you got a ton of money for a good out of area lawyer your goose is cooked .eep:

If you really were considered innocent until proved guilty ,why would you need to go to jail and make bond :hysterical: Innocent till proved guilty is one of the stupidest things that TPTB ever came up with :bash:


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Have any evidence beyond old movies to support that theory? If so I am sure internal affairs in that jurisdiction would love to hear about it.


Have you watched the video of the shooting of Walter Scott in SC? Because it's pretty hard to miss the police officer planting the evidence and his partner not batting an eye. And that partner and that officer's dept gave him a pass until the CITIZEN showed up with the video.


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> How can we know this? There are no stats to deny nor confirm remember? Ya can't have it both ways.


News articles. If you can read news on the internet then you can know for a fact this is happening.


----------



## gibbsgirl

There was an excop who turned criminal in California a year or two ago. It bothered me enormously that the cops didn't take him alive.

That story stunk to the sky to me of cops vendetta killing him. I don't remember his name, but the house he was in burned, and the radio chatter and his history as a cop really gave the impression that those cops were out for blood and not justice.


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> News articles. If you can read news on the internet then you can know for a fact this is happening.


But we have no data to compare to, how can we tell if this is on the rise or decline? Or could it be quite stable with variations in reporting?


----------



## Patchouli

Here's another one for you: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ur-months-and-its-probably-not-a-coincidence/




> *Why South Carolina indicted three white police officers in four months*
> 
> 
> State trooper Sean Groubertâs dashboard camera captured footage of the officer firing on a black man he had stopped for a seat belt violation Sept. 4. Levar Jones, who had exited the vehicle, was reaching into the car to retrieve his driverâs license. Jones was wounded but not killed.
> âWhat did I do? â¦ I just got my license, you said get my license,â Jones screamed in the video. âWhy did you shoot me?â
> The footage went viral and became a national story. Groubert was fired and later charged with assault and battery of a high and aggravated nature.


Those three on top of the indictment this year of Slager for the death of Walter Scott. 4 indictments of cops in one state in 12 months? I'd say that qualifies as a rise wouldn't you?


----------



## Patchouli

gibbsgirl said:


> There was an excop who turned criminal in California a year or two ago. It bothered me enormously that the cops didn't take him alive.
> 
> That story stunk to the sky to me of cops vendetta killing him. I don't remember his name, but the house he was in burned, and the radio chatter and his history as a cop really gave the impression that those cops were out for blood and not justice.


I remember that one because not only did they kill the cop they shot up 2 seperate trucks with innocent civilians because they thought they might be the suspect. 



> n two separate incidents in the early morning hours of February 7, 2013, police fired on people who turned out to be unrelated to Dorner. Dorner was not present at either incident.[92] At about 5:30 am (PST), at least seven[93] Los Angeles Police Department officers on a protection detail of an unnamed LAPD official's residence in the 19500 block of Redbeam Street[94] in the Los Angeles County city of Torrance opened fire on the back of a light blue Toyota Tacoma and shot its two female Hispanic occupants, a mother and daughter[93] aged 47 and 71 delivering newspapers for the _Los Angeles Times_.[7][95] The vehicle, according to officers, was spotted exiting a freeway and heading to the area of the residence that officers were protecting, was thought by police to match the description of Dorner's 2005 gray Nissan Titan and was moving without its headlights on.[92][96] The two victims of the shooting were later identified as Margie Carranza, age 47, and her 71-year-old mother Emma Hernandez. Hernandez was shot in the back and Carranza received wounds to her hand. Their attorney claimed police "had no idea who was in that vehicle" when they opened fire, and that nothing about his clients or their vehicle matched the descriptions given of the suspect or his truck.[97] The two women stated that they were given no warning prior to being fired upon.[98]
> A neighbor said the truck was used every day to deliver newspapers, and the women who used it kept their headlights off so as to not wake people up.[99] The two women were injured, but both survived.[100][101] The LAPD has started an internal investigation into the multiple-officer-involved shooting. According to their attorney Glen Jonas, 102 bullets holes were found in the truck.[102] The LAPD has declined to confirm the total number of officers involved or how many bullets were fired or if any verbal warnings were given to the women before the shooting began,[96] but seven LAPD officers remained off field duty pending the investigation as of late February 2013.[94]
> Approximately 25 minutes after that incident, officers from the Torrance Police Department struck and opened fire on another vehicle.[8] Like the first shooting, the incident involved a vehicle that police claimed resembled the description of Dorner's truck, but was later discovered to be a black Honda Ridgeline driven by a white male.[103][104] The victim of the second weapon discharge by police was David Perdue, who was on his way to the beach for some early morning surfing before work. A Torrance Police Department police cruiser slammed into Perdue's pickup and Torrance police officers opened fire. Perdue was not hit by any of the bullets, but reportedly suffered injuries as a result of the car impact.[8] Police claim that Perdue's pickup truck "matched the description" of the one belonging to Dorner. However, the _Los Angeles Times_ reported that the vehicle involved was once again a different make and color to that of the suspect's, and that Perdue "looks nothing like" the suspect.[8]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_and_manhunt

But hey the police aren't out of control......


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> Here's another one for you: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ur-months-and-its-probably-not-a-coincidence/
> 
> Those three on top of the indictment this year of Slager for the death of Walter Scott. 4 indictments of cops in one state in 12 months? I'd say that qualifies as a rise wouldn't you?


Only if there were fewer occurrences in previous years but then we don't have that data to compare to. Maybe there were 20 such cases As you say swept under the rug, then four would be a drastic reduction.


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Only if there were fewer occurrences in previous years but then we don't have that data to compare to. Maybe there were 20 such cases As you say swept under the rug, then four would be a drastic reduction.


Alright I will give you the point that we see more prosecutions these days and that is a good thing. But we still saw the cases in the past the only difference was that we couldn't prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the police were guilty. And hair trigger reactions from cops are definitely on the rise these days. There has been an increase in stories.


----------



## gibbsgirl

That was an example of one of the many reasons my husband and I left California as soon as possible.

Out there the typical response is whoever calls the cops first is the victim. That's almost always how it's handled. And, anyone even remotely in the vicinity or a potential crime us fair game to I'd and search. They use it like road stops just hoping to find people for anything arrestable.

There's really only two kinds of neighborhoods in socal, too. The ones cops live in, and the ones they patrol a lot. So, there's really no getting away from them to live in peace.

I almost blew the motor on an old mustang once trying to make the drive back from palm springs to San Fernando valley alone in the wee hours if the morning. Darned car burned up almost all the oil and was knocking like a son of a gun. I hit rampart and refused to stop and finished the drive.

My husband and dad weren't even mad because they said there were no good options for me to get help in the middle of the night from the citizens or the cops. They told me they'd fix it or get me another car if it was ruined before they even went out to chevk it.

I don't know if things are better or worse or the same now as in the past. But, I so know the public us becoming more aware of things, and I pray that somehow it leads to things getting better.


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> Alright I will give you the point that we see more prosecutions these days and that is a good thing. But we still saw the cases in the past the only difference was that we couldn't prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the police were guilty. And hair trigger reactions from cops are definitely on the rise these days. There has been an increase in stories.


Now that last line I agree with. There has been an increase of stories. That has nothing to do with increase or decrease of events.


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Now that last line I agree with. There has been an increase of stories. That has nothing to do with increase or decrease of events.



Well thats 2 agreements then so I am off to bed.


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> Well thats 2 agreements then so I am off to bed.


Fair enough, goodnight.


----------



## AmericanStand

Sawmill Jim said:


> all the kid had to do was drop the gun at first sight of the cops and move away from it .
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe instead of playing thug in the park he should been playing at the advanced degree in theology he was studying for .:bash:



The way I understand it the kid was shot IN THE BACK 2 seconds after the cop got there. 
Not a lot of opportunity to drop the toy. 

Why should he have to grovel in fear each time his servant shows up ?


----------



## Tricky Grama

Patchouli said:


> Well first there are no stats because no one has to keep stats. Federal law does not force anyone to do so and guess what no police dept is going to keep stats that make them look bad if they don't have to do so. Would you?
> 
> Second these are not anecdotes these are legitimate news stories with investigations and descriptions of what happened. It isn't like what you people keep doing telling me about how some cop you know says this or that.


You are wrong. There are stats.
And what they say is that %-wise, far more blacks commit crimes than do whites. 
Far more black people kill other black people than do other races. 
There are no more black people killed by cops than whites.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Patchouli said:


> Define attacked. Because in all of the cases I am talking about the cops were not attacked. Is running away an attack? Is asking why you need to put out your cigarette at a traffic stop an attack? In playing in a park an attack?


Ah, clearer now. 
You think everyone is above the law. If the 'law' meaning a cop-asks you to do something after stopping you, you don't have to if you don't want to. He'll ask again, & maybe the 3rd or 4th time he'll get a little testy & if you keep on being belligerent, he'll haul your butt outta the car.

Then you get to grab for his gun?
You get to point a toy one at him?


----------



## Tricky Grama

Patchouli said:


> Oh so it's cool for cops to shoot people for disrespecting them in your book then eh? Wow.
> 
> The kid with the toy gun was in a PARK and the cop shot him in the BACK 2 seconds after arrival at said PARK. But sure he was scared to death and felt threatened. Whatever.


I'm really just about done w/you.
We're all horribly sad about folks being killed b/c of lack of respect for cops or just b/c they resisted arrest. No reason to die. 

However, in virtually all cases, respect, obedience, following instructions woulda saved their lives.

Why don't you see THAT!


----------



## MO_cows

AmericanStand said:


> The way I understand it the kid was shot IN THE BACK 2 seconds after the cop got there.
> Not a lot of opportunity to drop the toy.
> 
> Why should he have to grovel in fear each time his servant shows up ?


Oh cut out the hysterical hype. Following the orders of a cop isn't "groveling in fear".

I saw the video from that incident, it doesn't look like the kid was shot in the back. However it looks like the cop did decide to shoot way too fast. I heard the audio of him calling for an ambulance, he reported a black male in early 20's was down. He still had no clue he had shot a kid at that point. Remember the cops didn't just happen across that kid, they were responding to a 911 call. So the citizen who panicked at the sight of a 12 year old playing with a plastic gun is partly to blame. And the red tip which marked it as a toy was gone, his parents should have destroyed it when that happened. Tragic mistakes made all the way around. But if it makes you feel better to believe there was a killer cop at large just waiting to plug a kid, you go right ahead.


----------



## FarmerKat

MO_cows said:


> Oh cut out the hysterical hype. Following the orders of a cop isn't "groveling in fear".
> 
> I saw the video from that incident, it doesn't look like the kid was shot in the back. However it looks like the cop did decide to shoot way too fast. I heard the audio of him calling for an ambulance, he reported a black male in early 20's was down. He still had no clue he had shot a kid at that point. Remember the cops didn't just happen across that kid, they were responding to a 911 call. So the citizen who panicked at the sight of a 12 year old playing with a plastic gun is partly to blame. And the red tip which marked it as a toy was gone, his parents should have destroyed it when that happened. Tragic mistakes made all the way around. But if it makes you feel better to believe there was a killer cop at large just waiting to plug a kid, you go right ahead.


About a week after this happened we found ourselves in a similar situation. We were in a playground with our kids. DH was sitting on a bench, I was standing, DS was riding a bike and was on the opposite side of the playground, DD was on the slide. DH & I were between the kids. There was no one else at the playground. 

Two kids (about 8-9 years old, white) came out of the neighborhood next to the playground. They were holding guns - they looked real to me, there were no orange tips or anything else to indicate that they were toys. DH's back was turned to them. The boy pointed the gun at DH and pretended to shoot. I believed in that moment that my husband was going to die. I just kept saying we have to leave, we have to leave .... I can see this scene in my mind to this day. The kids thought it was funny.

DH saw the look on my face and turned. He started talking to the boys and asked them to show him the guns. He confirmed they were just airsoft guns with the orange tips painted over. DH said they were just boys being boys and that boys play with toy guns. But we left shortly after because the way the boys were playing with the guns was truly disturbing - they pretended to shoot the other guy after he was down or would pretend slit his throat. IMO, that goes beyond boys being boys.

If DH was not with me, I would have ran for cover and called 911. If I had a gun on me, I honestly cannot say what I would have done.


----------



## beenaround

Tricky Grama said:


> I'm really just about done w/you.
> We're all horribly sad about folks being killed b/c of lack of respect for cops or just b/c they resisted arrest. No reason to die.
> 
> However, in virtually all cases, respect, obedience, following instructions woulda saved their lives.
> 
> Why don't you see THAT!


for now, we don't have any concentration camps.

A while ago some Muslim looking men (Americans) were at a gun range, rented weapons and used them. When they left they were pulled over for questioning. People said every american should be good with answering questions to which I asked, how many times? Once a year, a month, a week, a day or at every street corner?

If anyone should understand the need to vehemently protect personal freedom it's those who know it, for their own sake.

Your willingness to be stopped and questioned is wrong headed, but what you said may save a life. 

THe LEO is greatly out numbered and it's in their very best interest to make friends with the people for 2 reasons. They are the grunts of the higher ups who time and time again have shown they will do whatever it takes to protect themselves with only the people to remove them. The second reason is they need the people on their side to protect them from the people who greatly out number them. What we are seeing today is a failure to communicate this.

The good guys are under a law set down when this creation started, they must avoid even the appearance of evil. Yet it is popular for LE to run around as traffic enforcement in confiscated drug dealer cars. Trust is not earned looking like the things people have come to believe are bad or acting like it's their freedom to stop and question anyone, your freedoms are suspended till you submit to it. Commit this violation of freedoms demand and yours will be infringed upon, to the extreme point of the freedom to live being taken away.

Freedom has a demand, protect the freedoms of others above your own and you will protect your own. Use your freedom to infringe upon the freedoms of others and your own will suffer. Doesn't matter in what form/freedom is infringed, freedom suffers. Accept being question without a legitimate cause and concentration camps maybe in your future, but more likely the future of the next generations. That's right, it's not just the present peoples freedoms that demand protection or suffer lose, it's all those that come after us.

People should not be good with their personal freedom being infringed OR the freedoms of anyone without a legitimate cause. Because people refuse to understand this we had Prohibition and today sobriety checks point which legalize the right of government to stop anyone if the government declares doing so is in the best interests of public health. In other words those who hold the weapons of mass destruction just made it legal to infringe upon anyone's personal freedom for whatever reason because breathing people are always a health hazard.

This whole thing could go away if people did what God said must be done, love your neighbor. It isn't just for people who claim a belief in God, it's the law of creation and always has been. I anyone doubts it, just read world history and ask how it would be different if people loved their neighbor. Feel free to substitute the question with any other for verification.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

FarmerKat said:


> About a week after this happened we found ourselves in a similar situation. We were in a playground with our kids. DH was sitting on a bench, I was standing, DS was riding a bike and was on the opposite side of the playground, DD was on the slide. DH & I were between the kids. There was no one else at the playground.
> 
> Two kids (about 8-9 years old, white) came out of the neighborhood next to the playground. They were holding guns - they looked real to me, there were no orange tips or anything else to indicate that they were toys. DH's back was turned to them. The boy pointed the gun at DH and pretended to shoot. I believed in that moment that my husband was going to die. I just kept saying we have to leave, we have to leave .... I can see this scene in my mind to this day. The kids thought it was funny.
> 
> DH saw the look on my face and turned. He started talking to the boys and asked them to show him the guns. He confirmed they were just airsoft guns with the orange tips painted over. DH said they were just boys being boys and that boys play with toy guns. But we left shortly after because the way the boys were playing with the guns was truly disturbing - they pretended to shoot the other guy after he was down or would pretend slit his throat. IMO, that goes beyond boys being boys.
> 
> If DH was not with me, I would have ran for cover and called 911. If I had a gun on me, I honestly cannot say what I would have done.


It is sad but it is a sign of the times we are once again living in . Might be history repeating it's self in a strange way eep:

Would it been wise in 1810 to dress like an Indian complete with war paint and went to the church picnic :hysterical: 
Living to old age sometimes requires a little thought about the hazards of the times we live in .Very few anymore want to accept being responsible for their lack of thinking .Playing cops and thugs might should be practiced in ones own back yard out in the sticks now days instead of the church picnic :cowboy:


----------



## TripleD

FarmerKat said:


> About a week after this happened we found ourselves in a similar situation. We were in a playground with our kids. DH was sitting on a bench, I was standing, DS was riding a bike and was on the opposite side of the playground, DD was on the slide. DH & I were between the kids. There was no one else at the playground.
> 
> Two kids (about 8-9 years old, white) came out of the neighborhood next to the playground. They were holding guns - they looked real to me, there were no orange tips or anything else to indicate that they were toys. DH's back was turned to them. The boy pointed the gun at DH and pretended to shoot. I believed in that moment that my husband was going to die. I just kept saying we have to leave, we have to leave .... I can see this scene in my mind to this day. The kids thought it was funny.
> 
> DH saw the look on my face and turned. He started talking to the boys and asked them to show him the guns. He confirmed they were just airsoft guns with the orange tips painted over. DH said they were just boys being boys and that boys play with toy guns. But we left shortly after because the way the boys were playing with the guns was truly disturbing - they pretended to shoot the other guy after he was down or would pretend slit his throat. IMO, that goes beyond boys being boys.
> 
> If DH was not with me, I would have ran for cover and called 911. If I had a gun on me, I honestly cannot say what I would have done.


I liked your post. In my youth my playground was 1000 acres of woods and swamp in S.C. My DB and I hunted all of it at 8 & 10 yrs old. All by ourselves no phone or gps . Times have changed.....


----------



## arabian knight

Sawmill Jim said:


> Lot of stupid for sure now days ,would you wait till anyone with a gun shot at you first .I can see you don't care who anyone shoots at as long as it an't you .
> 
> You play with guns now days toy or otherwise in a public place borders on insanity now days . If you are a parent and let your child wonder around with a gun handle hanging out of your kids waist band, you may be insane too . Size of a kid don't matter ,no more than the caliber of the gun .No all the kid had to do was drop the gun at first sight of the cops and move away from it .
> 
> Maybe instead of playing thug in the park he should been playing at the advanced degree in theology he was studying for .:bash:


And of course the liberals AWAYS forget to mention about that shooting in the park the RED Tit had been taken off, the Rest of the 'gun' would look REAL. That is why that kid put himself in danger. But lets not get the TRUE facts posted NOPE not at all just lean it to BAD officers and leave it there. That is the lefties way of doing things and the other cop haters out there.


----------



## gapeach

TripleD said:


> I liked your post. In my youth my playground was 1000 acres of woods and swamp in S.C. My DB and I hunted all of it at 8 & 10 yrs old. All by ourselves no phone or gps . Times have changed.....


I was raised the same way too, TripleD, in S.C. We didn't hunt but we waded in the creeks and followed those creeks many miles. We usually took a sandwich with us and were gone from early morning til suppertime. Parents never worried about us.

We had a blue bird bus and a P&N train that came close enough for us to catch it and go to town & back at 8-10 yrs old.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

arabian knight said:


> And of course the liberals AWAYS forget to mention about that shooting in the park the RED Tit had been taken off, the Rest of the 'gun' would look REAL. That is why that kid put himself in danger. But lets not get the TRUE facts posted NOPE not at all just lean it to BAD officers and leave it there. That is the lefties way of doing things and the other cop haters out there.


An't it odd though the kids remove the orange tape and the grown thugs put it on their guns :bash: Some tunes for their boom box :hysterical:

Johnny Cash "Don't Take Your Guns to Town
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raXKeQ5qFwo[/ame]


----------



## TripleD

gapeach said:


> I was raised the same way too, TripleD, in S.C. We didn't hunt but we waded in the creeks and followed those creeks many miles. We usually took a sandwich with us and were gone from early morning til suppertime. Parents never worried about us.
> 
> We had a blue bird bus and a P&N train that came close enough for us to catch it and go to town & back at 8-10 yrs old.


When our parents got home from work they looked to see what was gone. It was either the guns or the rod and reels. They knew we were having fun...


----------



## AmericanStand

Tricky Grama said:


> Ah, clearer now.
> 
> You think everyone is above the law. If the 'law' meaning a cop-asks you to do something after stopping you, you don't have to if you don't want to. He'll ask again, & maybe the 3rd or 4th time he'll get a little testy & if you keep on being belligerent, he'll haul your butt outta the car.
> 
> 
> 
> Then you get to grab for his gun?
> 
> You get to point a toy one at him?



If he has no right to stop you he is a thug. 
If the requests he made he is a thug. 
If he hauls my butt outta the car without cause he is a thug. 
Do you defend thugs because they wear a uniform ?
I do not tolerate thugs well.


----------



## AmericanStand

Tricky Grama said:


> I'm really just about done w/you.
> 
> We're all horribly sad about folks being killed b/c of lack of respect for cops or just b/c they resisted arrest. No reason to die.
> 
> 
> 
> However, in virtually all cases, respect, obedience, following instructions woulda saved their lives.
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you see THAT!



This kid was shot in the back. He obviously wasn't a threat. So he was shot for lack of respect. !

HEIL. !


----------



## AmericanStand

As a kid we played with realistic looking CAP guns and the cops didn't use it as a excuse to kill us.


----------



## Nevada

arabian knight said:


> And of course the liberals AWAYS forget to mention about that shooting in the park the RED Tit had been taken off, the Rest of the 'gun' would look REAL.


So possessing a realistic looking firearm in public is justification for a cop to shoot to kill? Isn't open carry legal in America?


----------



## where I want to

Nevada said:


> So possessing a realistic looking firearm in public is justification for a cop to shoot to kill? Isn't open carry legal in America?


Depending on what that person is doing with the gun, it could be. How many times have you heard of someone being robbed at gun point when turned out it was not even a real gun. 
You must know it is not so simply a thing either way.


----------



## Nevada

where I want to said:


> Depending on what that person is doing with the gun, it could be. How many times have you heard of someone being robbed at gun point when turned out it was not even a real gun.
> You must know it is not so simply a thing either way.


So the kid with the toy gun wasn't shot because he had a realistic looking gun, he was shot for what he was doing with the gun. What was he doing with the gun?


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Nevada said:


> So possessing a realistic looking firearm in public is justification for a cop to shoot to kill? Isn't open carry legal in America?


Some states open carry is legal there are age requirements . Most open carry is not in ones hand and don't wave it around ,you might be mistook as being drunk :hysterical:

There are times some appear to try hard to win the Darwin award and should they reach their gold many want to make excuses for all their hard work, along with the sacrifice they put into receiving it :cowboy:


----------



## where I want to

Nevada said:


> So the kid with the toy gun wasn't shot because he had a realistic looking gun, he was shot for what he was doing with the gun. What was he doing with the gun?


I have no idea- the fact of which makes me want to wait until the authorities have finished their review before deciding. Didn't we have a discussion on the virtue of holding off judgement til the facts are in?


----------



## Nevada

where I want to said:


> I have no idea- the fact of which makes me want to wait until the authorities have finished their review before deciding. Didn't we have a discussion on the virtue of holding off judgement til the facts are in?


Aren't the facts in on the Cleveland shooting of the kid? It happened about 10 months ago.


----------



## where I want to

Nevada said:


> Aren't the facts in on the Cleveland shooting of the kid? It happened about 10 months ago.


Then please present them. Could be you have the truth. But frankly, around here, facts are those things edited to support rather than the usual mixed bag that is real. Anyway, I have not kept up on all the details and have been worn out trying to dig them out myself when people give this or that horrendous "example" of whatever incident seems to support their opinion.


----------



## Cornhusker

Nevada said:


> So the kid with the toy gun wasn't shot because he had a realistic looking gun, he was shot for what he was doing with the gun. What was he doing with the gun?


Pointing it at the cop?


----------



## Nevada

Cornhusker said:


> Pointing it at the cop?


I didn't read that.


----------



## Evons hubby

Cornhusker said:


> Pointing it at the cop?


Maybe, maybe he was chanting oink oink bang bang at the same time.


----------



## Tricky Grama

FarmerKat said:


> About a week after this happened we found ourselves in a similar situation. We were in a playground with our kids. DH was sitting on a bench, I was standing, DS was riding a bike and was on the opposite side of the playground, DD was on the slide. DH & I were between the kids. There was no one else at the playground.
> 
> Two kids (about 8-9 years old, white) came out of the neighborhood next to the playground. They were holding guns - they looked real to me, there were no orange tips or anything else to indicate that they were toys. DH's back was turned to them. The boy pointed the gun at DH and pretended to shoot. I believed in that moment that my husband was going to die. I just kept saying we have to leave, we have to leave .... I can see this scene in my mind to this day. The kids thought it was funny.
> 
> DH saw the look on my face and turned. He started talking to the boys and asked them to show him the guns. He confirmed they were just airsoft guns with the orange tips painted over. DH said they were just boys being boys and that boys play with toy guns. But we left shortly after because the way the boys were playing with the guns was truly disturbing - they pretended to shoot the other guy after he was down or would pretend slit his throat. IMO, that goes beyond boys being boys.
> 
> If DH was not with me, I would have ran for cover and called 911. If I had a gun on me, I honestly cannot say what I would have done.


I grew up w/guns as well as most of us here & I'm tellin' ya, one of the MOST important things I learned-b/4 I learned to talk, I bet, was you DO NOT point a gun at anyone! DO NOT! Toy or otherwise. 
It hampered our playing w/cap pistols a bit but we'd better not get caught pointing them directly at someone.

What we have in the country is lack of education of almost any kind.


----------



## Tricky Grama

beenaround said:


> for now, we don't have any concentration camps.
> 
> A while ago some Muslim looking men (Americans) were at a gun range, rented weapons and used them. When they left they were pulled over for questioning. People said every american should be good with answering questions to which I asked, how many times? Once a year, a month, a week, a day or at every street corner?
> 
> If anyone should understand the need to vehemently protect personal freedom it's those who know it, for their own sake.
> 
> Your willingness to be stopped and questioned is wrong headed, but what you said may save a life.
> 
> THe LEO is greatly out numbered and it's in their very best interest to make friends with the people for 2 reasons. They are the grunts of the higher ups who time and time again have shown they will do whatever it takes to protect themselves with only the people to remove them. The second reason is they need the people on their side to protect them from the people who greatly out number them. What we are seeing today is a failure to communicate this.
> 
> The good guys are under a law set down when this creation started, they must avoid even the appearance of evil. Yet it is popular for LE to run around as traffic enforcement in confiscated drug dealer cars. Trust is not earned looking like the things people have come to believe are bad or acting like it's their freedom to stop and question anyone, your freedoms are suspended till you submit to it. Commit this violation of freedoms demand and yours will be infringed upon, to the extreme point of the freedom to live being taken away.
> 
> Freedom has a demand, protect the freedoms of others above your own and you will protect your own. Use your freedom to infringe upon the freedoms of others and your own will suffer. Doesn't matter in what form/freedom is infringed, freedom suffers. Accept being question without a legitimate cause and concentration camps maybe in your future, but more likely the future of the next generations. That's right, it's not just the present peoples freedoms that demand protection or suffer lose, it's all those that come after us.
> 
> People should not be good with their personal freedom being infringed OR the freedoms of anyone without a legitimate cause. Because people refuse to understand this we had Prohibition and today sobriety checks point which legalize the right of government to stop anyone if the government declares doing so is in the best interests of public health. In other words those who hold the weapons of mass destruction just made it legal to infringe upon anyone's personal freedom for whatever reason because breathing people are always a health hazard.
> 
> This whole thing could go away if people did what God said must be done, love your neighbor. It isn't just for people who claim a belief in God, it's the law of creation and always has been. I anyone doubts it, just read world history and ask how it would be different if people loved their neighbor. Feel free to substitute the question with any other for verification.


Just for the record, I never said I was good w/being stopped & questioned...your: "...Your willingness to be stopped & questioned..." idea must've been another poster.


----------



## Cornhusker

Tricky Grama said:


> I grew up w/guns as well as most of us here & I'm tellin' ya, one of the MOST important things I learned-b/4 I learned to talk, I bet, was you DO NOT point a gun at anyone! DO NOT! Toy of otherwise.
> It hampered our playing w/cap pistols a bit but we'd better not get caught pointing them directly at someone.
> 
> What we have in the country is lack of education of almost any kind.


We have a lack of respect
When you are given everything you need, you don't respect anything.
Poverty doesn't stack trash in the street and make you take drugs.
Poverty doesn't make you a poor student or a troublemaker.
I grew up poor, lots of us did, but we were taught respect...all of us.
We were also taught that if we wanted more, if we wanted better, then we had to go do it ourselves.


----------



## Cornhusker

Tricky Grama said:


> Just for the record, I never said I was good w/being stopped & questioned...your: "...Your willingness to be stopped & questioned..." idea must've been another poster.


Nobody likes to be stopped and questioned, but when we are, we keep our hands in plain sight, speak politely and do what they ask us to do.
Most requests\orders from cops are for their own safety and your protection.
You decide how the encounter plays out, easy and quick stop, maybe a ticket, or arrest, tackling, cuffing and maybe worse. It's all up to you


----------



## Cornhusker

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Maybe, maybe he was chanting oink oink bang bang at the same time.


You never know
If a particular group was nationally trying to get people to kill me, I'd be a little defensive if someone came at me with a gun.


----------



## Evons hubby

Tricky Grama said:


> I grew up w/guns as well as most of us here & I'm tellin' ya, one of the MOST important things I learned-b/4 I learned to talk, I bet, was you DO NOT point a gun at anyone! DO NOT! Toy of otherwise.
> It hampered our playing w/cap pistols a bit but we'd better not get caught pointing them directly at someone.
> 
> What we have in the country is lack of education of almost any kind.


We (my brothers and I) where taught about gun safety at a very early age too. That's why we only used bird shot rounds in our 22s when we played cops n robbers. Nobody got hurt but it sure nuff eliminated the "got you, no you dint" part of the game. The welts made good evidence if the yelps weren't enough! :hysterical:


----------



## AmericanStand

Cornhusker said:


> Pointing it at the cop?



So the cop had those magic bullets that circle around and hit him in the back ?


----------



## Evons hubby

AmericanStand said:


> So the cop had those magic bullets that circle around and hit him in the back ?


Never underestimate the agility of today's youth. He prolly turned around to flee when he heard the shot fired, thus it struck him in the back. There is no such thing as magic bullets, no matter what the authors of the warren report told you.


----------



## DryHeat

Back on page 3 or 4 of this thread, a poster mentioned "civil forfeiture." Other than a comment that a cop had taken $200 from a relative, which may have been an outright personal theft rather than this legalized confiscation procedure, nobody has expanded on that problem. Here's a link to John Oliver doing a 15+ minute expose on the problem, imo *well* worth listening to and contemplating. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks[/ame] 

Perhaps minorities of color might be targeted for this ripoff more frequently than would Anglos, but I suspect as the economy worsens anybody in the position of traveling distances with cash or other assets (bullion, gems, etc) in hand should do some advance planning on how to respond to questions by LE as to whether they happen to have some amount of cash in their possession. Say you're going 50 miles away to a livestock auction, an estate sale, responding to a Craigslist ad for a vehicle, or returning from some event like a big flea market where you brought in several thou in cash? There appear to be increasing numbers of podunk rural jurisdictions that are onto raising cash for their LE departments, or even general government funds, by doing traffic stops of folks "passing through" but instead of a simple speed trap for a $200 ticket they ask how much cash you have in your possession. If you innocently say (as I'd be inclined to do, frankly,) "Yeah, I have about $2500 for the auction I'm on my way to" the cop just might say, "Oh, hand it over then, I think it's money for a drug buy you're on your way to." Then, it becomes *your* task to prove that's not the case, and it would initially be to some local group of LE, then to a local magistrate or judge, the very people cooperating to shake travelers down for such sums of money to help with their local civic budget. Sounds like it wouldn't hold up in the face of "innocent until.. etc" but it at the least can be something that would cost more to fight and appeal than you'd eventually get back.


----------



## MO_cows

Nevada said:


> So the kid with the toy gun wasn't shot because he had a realistic looking gun, he was shot for what he was doing with the gun. What was he doing with the gun?


Whatever he was doing with it, it scared somebody enough to call 911.


----------



## Trixie

Civil forfeiture sounded like such a good idea when it was presented. In other words, make those who commit crimes forfeit their ill gotten gains. 

Sadly, like so many laws passed in my memory to 'fix' things, the authorities involved get very creative in using it, for their own benefit.

That makes a good point when considering what should be done to do something about the situation we have now. Be careful of any new laws, regulation, etc., the authorities want to put in place. Remember, it can be turned on you as well, while the authorities seem to loose site of the reason for the law.


For the most part, I am a supporter of police officer - I've met and known some really great ones. I also know, however, there are some bad apples and I believe over the last decades, maybe longer, the 'us vs. them' attitude has made some of them a little more overbearing than they should be.

The so called 'war on drugs' has given rise to a whole host of things LE can do, but should not do.


I don't understand 'bullying' laws, or 'hate' crimes. If anyone is harrassing, harming others or just one person, does it have to be designated 'bullying'. It's wrong - we all know it. Why not just deal with it. How about 'hate' crimes - as opposed to what other kind of crimes? It's insanity.


----------



## AmericanStand

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Never underestimate the agility of today's youth. He prolly turned around to flee when he heard the shot fired, thus it struck him in the back. There is no such thing as magic bullets, no matter what the authors of the warren report told you.



Oh come back to planet earth superman wouldn't have reactions like that !


----------



## AmericanStand

MO_cows said:


> Whatever he was doing with it, it scared somebody enough to call 911.



So ?
I've heard of 911 calls for spiders. 
Some people scare easy.


----------



## MO_cows

AmericanStand said:


> So ?
> I've heard of 911 calls for spiders.
> Some people scare easy.


Police wouldn't respond to a spider 911 call most likely. But if they did, it would be with a different mindset than a call about someone threatening with a gun. 

Some people sure do scare easy. The stuff you have posted about the police, you must be quite scared of them. It's a pity.


----------



## Patchouli

Tricky Grama said:


> Ah, clearer now.
> You think everyone is above the law. If the 'law' meaning a cop-asks you to do something after stopping you, you don't have to if you don't want to. He'll ask again, & maybe the 3rd or 4th time he'll get a little testy & if you keep on being belligerent, he'll haul your butt outta the car.
> 
> Then you get to grab for his gun?
> You get to point a toy one at him?



Except none of that actually happened. You should really make an effort to find legitimate news sources.


----------



## Patchouli

MO_cows said:


> Oh cut out the hysterical hype. Following the orders of a cop isn't "groveling in fear".
> 
> I saw the video from that incident, it doesn't look like the kid was shot in the back. However it looks like the cop did decide to shoot way too fast. I heard the audio of him calling for an ambulance, he reported a black male in early 20's was down. He still had no clue he had shot a kid at that point. Remember the cops didn't just happen across that kid, they were responding to a 911 call. So the citizen who panicked at the sight of a 12 year old playing with a plastic gun is partly to blame. And the red tip which marked it as a toy was gone, his parents should have destroyed it when that happened. Tragic mistakes made all the way around. But if it makes you feel better to believe there was a killer cop at large just waiting to plug a kid, you go right ahead.



The person who made the call said they were pretty sure it was a TOY.


----------



## Patchouli

FarmerKat said:


> About a week after this happened we found ourselves in a similar situation. We were in a playground with our kids. DH was sitting on a bench, I was standing, DS was riding a bike and was on the opposite side of the playground, DD was on the slide. DH & I were between the kids. There was no one else at the playground.
> 
> Two kids (about 8-9 years old, white) came out of the neighborhood next to the playground. They were holding guns - they looked real to me, there were no orange tips or anything else to indicate that they were toys. DH's back was turned to them. The boy pointed the gun at DH and pretended to shoot. I believed in that moment that my husband was going to die. I just kept saying we have to leave, we have to leave .... I can see this scene in my mind to this day. The kids thought it was funny.
> 
> DH saw the look on my face and turned. He started talking to the boys and asked them to show him the guns. He confirmed they were just airsoft guns with the orange tips painted over. DH said they were just boys being boys and that boys play with toy guns. But we left shortly after because the way the boys were playing with the guns was truly disturbing - they pretended to shoot the other guy after he was down or would pretend slit his throat. IMO, that goes beyond boys being boys.
> 
> If DH was not with me, I would have ran for cover and called 911. If I had a gun on me, I honestly cannot say what I would have done.



Well at least your husband had a mature response to the whole thing. Thank God you did not have a gun. 

When I was a kid we played cops and robbers all over the neighborhood and every last one of us had BB or cap guns. I don't remember any mothers freaking out and thinking we were going to kill anyone.


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> Except none of that actually happened. You should really make an effort to find legitimate news sources.


Actually I think you will find those things do happen, you may want to broaden your search parameters a bit.


----------



## Patchouli

Do you know why there are little orange caps on the end of toy guns today? It's a federal requirement, the law was passed in 1989 after 3 kids were killed by police when they were playing with toy guns.


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Actually I think you will find those things do happen, you may want to broaden your search parameters a bit.


She was addressing the news stories that I have posted in this thread. And her description was nothing like what really happened.


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> The person who made the call said they were pretty sure it was a TOY.


Sorta makes one wonder why they made the call?


----------



## Patchouli

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Sorta makes one wonder why they made the call?


People make such stupid 9-11 calls these days. It's like all the calls over kids playing in parks or walking down the street or even playing in their own front yard. It's just crazy. And people die. Or parents get their kids taken away. And all for doing things you and I did as kids and nobody batted an eye at back then.


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> People make such stupid 9-11 calls these days. It's like all the calls over kids playing in parks or walking down the street or even playing in their own front yard. It's just crazy. And people die. Or parents get their kids taken away. And all for doing things you and I did as kids and nobody batted an eye at back then.


My brother and I talk about this stuff a lot, we can't imagine what would happen today were a boy to be a boy like we were. :hysterical:


----------



## Tricky Grama

Patchouli said:


> Except none of that actually happened. You should really make an effort to find legitimate news sources.


Instead of the sharkiness you could let us know what you think is a lie.

IF the toy gun was not pointed at anyone, you have proof?

Did Brown grab for the cops gun? Actually the gun even went off...

Was the woman who was told to put out her cigarette belligerent?

IF you have proof of these things, let us know. Otherwise, your cred is still a minus.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Patchouli said:


> Well at least your husband had a mature response to the whole thing. Thank God you did not have a gun.
> 
> When I was a kid we played cops and robbers all over the neighborhood and every last one of us had BB or cap guns. I don't remember any mothers freaking out and thinking we were going to kill anyone.


Did you go to a playground & point the real-looking guns at anyone?


----------



## MO_cows

Patchouli said:


> The person who made the call said they were pretty sure it was a TOY.


Then they shouldn't have made the call. I hope they haven't had a good night's sleep since the shooting. Likewise the dispatcher who didn't relay that part of the call to the officers responding. At least according to what I have read about the case.

ETA: If their mindset was, I am pretty sure it's a toy but I better notify the authorities just in case it's not, they shouldn't have called 911. They should have called the non-emergency number, the "regular" phone number for the police. Which is available in seconds with a smart phone.

A tragic chain of events, each little part understandable in its own way but the sum of those parts was horrible. 

1-lapse in parental responsibility, letting the kid go out to play with a toy gun that had the orange tip removed.
2-lapse in judgement of the 911 caller.
3-lapse in thoroughness of the emergency dispatcher in relaying all the information available.
4-lapse in judgement of the cop. Thought he had to make a split second life and death decision, turns out he made the wrong one.


----------



## FarmerKat

Patchouli said:


> Well at least your husband had a mature response to the whole thing. Thank God you did not have a gun.
> 
> When I was a kid we played cops and robbers all over the neighborhood and every last one of us had BB or cap guns. I don't remember any mothers freaking out and thinking we were going to kill anyone.


I think you misunderstood my point. I am not a mother who freaks out every time kids play with a toy gun - we play with them too. But our kids don't tote realistic looking guns around to playgrounds and point them at people. Our kids shoot real guns as well, but we teach gun safety and supervise them. But of course, you already have made an opinion about me so why do I even bother responding.

Do you think I would panic if a kid pretended to shoot me with something like this? http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/ds9f5ciln9cnswbcercm.jpg


----------



## FarmerKat

Patchouli said:


> Do you know why there are little orange caps on the end of toy guns today? It's a federal requirement, the law was passed in 1989 after 3 kids were killed by police when they were playing with toy guns.


So why do parents allow their kids to paint them black? A little parental responsibility goes a long way ...


----------



## AmericanStand

MO_cows said:


> Police wouldn't respond to a spider 911 call most likely. But if they did, it would be with a different mindset than a call about someone threatening with a gun.
> 
> Some people sure do scare easy. The stuff you have posted about the police, you must be quite scared of them. It's a pity.



But police will respond to a report of a gun carrying kid in a park. No matter how bad the reporters eyes or powers of observation are. 
Yes I do scare easy I've found gunshot wounds to be decidedly unpleasant and time consuming. So yes the presence of a a guns wielding man on a power trip does put me on edge.


----------



## AmericanStand

Patchouli said:


> Do you know why there are little orange caps on the end of toy guns today? It's a federal requirement, the law was passed in 1989 after 3 kids were killed by police when they were playing with toy guns.



I said at that time the law would save lives but kids would also die and the cops justify it cause the cap was gone. 
Of course a cop that missed seeing it could always remove one.


----------



## where I want to

One thing is that children are never to be blamed for doing stupid things. Doing stupid things are part of learning not to do them. 
What is deeply wrong is any society tolerating a culture where hoodlums are admired and that children seek to imitate. Where violent language is normal and everyone knows murderers and murdered personally. 
This whole thing is a filthy version of the chicken-or-the-egg question. Did the violence of criminals create the violence of cops or the violence of cops create the violence of criminals? If you look, it is obvious they walk hand in hand.


----------



## Cornhusker

AmericanStand said:


> So the cop had those magic bullets that circle around and hit him in the back ?


Maybe he pointed it at one cop and another cop shot him?
I'm not seeing the link, sorry


----------



## Cornhusker

FarmerKat said:


> So why do parents allow their kids to paint them black? A little parental responsibility goes a long way ...


Parental responsibility doesn't exist in most of this country today.
"My little angel was a good boy., At least that's what the neighbors and his probation officer tell me"


----------



## Patchouli

Tricky Grama said:


> Instead of the sharkiness you could let us know what you think is a lie.
> 
> IF the toy gun was not pointed at anyone, you have proof?
> 
> Did Brown grab for the cops gun? Actually the gun even went off...
> 
> Was the woman who was told to put out her cigarette belligerent?
> 
> IF you have proof of these things, let us know. Otherwise, your cred is still a minus.


Links have been posted to stories and video. I did my job already.


----------



## Patchouli

FarmerKat said:


> So why do parents allow their kids to paint them black? A little parental responsibility goes a long way ...


They don't paint them black they pop the little orange cap off the end so it looks more real. They are kids. And you know what? I wasn't a bad parent for not doing toy gun inspection everyday either.

Are y'all listening to yourselves? You complain all over this board about government intrusion and practically living in a communist country and then you bend over backwards to excuse cops shooting kids and come out with absurd ideas like parents need to inspect their kids guns and kids should never play in public with a gun and kids shouldn't be in parks playing. Good lord.


----------



## kasilofhome

AmericanStand said:


> As a kid we played with realistic looking CAP guns and the cops didn't use it as a excuse to kill us.


And times have changed.. toys with orange are very logical.

We have very few horse tie ups outside of stores things do change.

I believe in guns, I like open carry here as it truly is open carry and so many open carry that guns are not seen as the threat... it's the known or perceived history of the individual or the behavior of the individual carrying the gun the creates a difference in others choice of reaction.

Known meth head with gun... acting odd... a call to 911
The wood delivery man no issue.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Patchouli said:


> They don't paint them black they pop the little orange cap off the end so it looks more real. They are kids. And you know what? I wasn't a bad parent for not doing toy gun inspection everyday either.
> 
> Are y'all listening to yourselves? You complain all over this board about government intrusion and practically living in a communist country and then you bend over backwards to excuse cops shooting kids and come out with absurd ideas like parents need to inspect their kids guns and kids should never play in public with a gun and kids shouldn't be in parks playing. Good lord.


We aren't the one defending doing dumb things . If a parent isn't responsible for teaching and making sure their child's weapon don't appear to be real,just who is ? Would you be dumb enough to sit in the geto on a bench and start stacking your sack of twenty dollar bills out and counting them . There just happen to be choices in life one has to decide if they or smart ones or dumb ones .

If they put a shooting range in at the park I would expect to see guns there .I would also expect to have a cop request to check to see if I was in compliance. Not many people would carry a gun in a ready fire position ie in hand finger on trigger . :bash:


----------



## kasilofhome

Patchouli said:


> They don't paint them black they pop the little orange cap off the end so it looks more real. They are kids. And you know what? I wasn't a bad parent for not doing toy gun inspection everyday either.
> 
> Are y'all listening to yourselves? You complain all over this board about government intrusion and practically living in a communist country and then you bend over backwards to excuse cops shooting kids and come out with absurd ideas like parents need to inspect their kids guns and kids should never play in public with a gun and kids shouldn't be in parks playing. Good lord.


That is you position that failing to ensure that parent does not put their childs life at risk by failing to check toy guns..

I am very much against cps but they could very well declare such a parent is putting the child in harm's way and remove such a parent from what little duties and responsibilities and rights a parent has still today.


----------



## AmericanStand

kasilofhome said:


> And times have changed.. toys with orange are very logical.
> 
> .



Yes since then the cops are lazier , more violent and cowardly.


----------



## MoonRiver

So this proposal is for the police to change, some changes good - but most bad and dangerous. And the black lives people don't address any change in behavior within the black community that would reduce the chance of police violence.

I would tell them to come back when they were serious.

If they are serious, they should start with - here's what we are going to do in the minority community to reduce the potential for violent police interaction. 

In addition to this, we would like to offer to work with the police department and other civic associations to see what else can be done.


----------



## Nevada

MoonRiver said:


> So this proposal is for the police to change, some changes good - but most bad and dangerous.


I believe police reform is in our future. The circumstances for the use of deadly force will be better defined and there will be more oversight & transparency. The cops who don't like it will simply have to look for another line of work.


----------



## where I want to

Nevada said:


> I believe police reform is in our future. The circumstances for the use of deadly force will be better defined and there will be more oversight & transparency. The cops who don't like it will simply have to look for another line of work.


As it has every 20 years or so until the criminals seem more of an issue than the police and it goes the other way. People tend to see no further than that, now or ever.


----------



## MoonRiver

Nevada said:


> I believe police reform is in our future. The circumstances for the use of deadly force will be better defined and there will be more oversight & transparency. The cops who don't like it will simply have to look for another line of work.


Why stop broken window arrests? If people don't want to get arrested, don't "break windows".


----------



## watcher

AmericanStand said:


> Just how much do you think a civil suit against two lying cops backed up by a lying police force would return with 12 people like you on the jury would return ?


A lot when you have the recordings of the 911 and radio tapes which show your contact with the police and the officers coordinating the head on. Add to that physical evidence showing your speed at impact as well the officer's you should have had a slam dunk.


----------



## Nevada

MoonRiver said:


> Nevada said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe police reform is in our future. The circumstances for the use of deadly force will be better defined and there will be more oversight & transparency. The cops who don't like it will simply have to look for another line of work.
> 
> 
> 
> Why stop broken window arrests? If people don't want to get arrested, don't "break windows".
Click to expand...

Broken window arrests? I have no idea what you're trying to say, or what it has to do with my post.


----------



## kasilofhome

AmericanStand said:


> Yes since then the cops are lazier , more violent and cowardly.


Then you get up and work to change things run for office, craft to remove what you see as poor legislation.

It's hard yes but sometimes you win... simply posting here what do you get.

Plan on it taking 5 to 10 years... is it worth getting it done. ....Only You know.

Hey sourdough how do you like the homeowners reduction...

Fyi now that that s maxed to the state cap.. we are working on a bough tax holiday. Well, the 9 month food tax vacation worked..past by the voters..the 2 years s up on that so beware the assembly is trying to tweak that.

We, unelected well, most of us are unelected.. we legally can't meet with more that two elected people are there... open meeting laws ..... not going to break those laws. We are making a difference.

It's effort time and money


----------



## Cornhusker

AmericanStand said:


> Yes since then the cops are lazier , more violent and cowardly.


That is the most vile post I've seen for a long time.
Cops put in long stressful hours, and I wouldn't call anyone cowardly who has to walk into unknown situations where they could be hurt or killed on a daily basis.
Most are decent hard working people.


----------



## AmericanStand

watcher said:


> A lot when you have the recordings of the 911 and radio tapes which show your contact with the police and the officers coordinating the head on. Add to that physical evidence showing your speed at impact as well the officer's you should have had a slam dunk.



You would think so but but for some weird reason the 911 wasn't taped and nobody records the Chanel the cops were on.


----------



## AmericanStand

Cornhusker said:


> That is the most vile post I've seen for a long time.
> 
> Cops put in long stressful hours, and I wouldn't call anyone cowardly who has to walk into unknown situations where they could be hurt or killed on a daily basis.
> 
> Most are decent hard working people.



Oh because I don't worship at their feet ?
Do you really belive today's cops are braver , work harder and are less violent than those of the past ?


----------



## Evons hubby

AmericanStand said:


> Oh because I don't worship at their feet ?
> Do you really belive today's cops are braver , work harder and are less violent than those of the past ?


Well, since we have been informed by a highly respected member that there are no statistics to make comparisons it is pretty difficult to say one way or the other.


----------



## where I want to

AmericanStand said:


> Oh because I don't worship at their feet ?
> Do you really belive today's cops are braver , work harder and are less violent than those of the past ?


Frankly police corruption as been an issue since police were around to be corrupted. Dealing with criminals historically tends to increase the likelihood that some police will think they are outside of the law they enforce. Look at the Sheriff of Nottingham.


----------



## watcher

AmericanStand said:


> You would think so but but for some weird reason the 911 wasn't taped and nobody records the Chanel the cops were on.


Then you still have a good case, the fact that the LEA violated standards and failed to record or keep the recordings of the 911 call (which is required by law in most if not all states IIRC) along with the physical evidence, which should have been gathered by the state police due the fact local police were involved, still should have gotten you a fairly substantial out of court settlement. If it didn't you should have gotten a better lawyer. I suggest a "If you don't win I don't get paid!" type of lawyer if you are ever in a similar situation again.


----------



## watcher

AmericanStand said:


> Oh because I don't worship at their feet ?
> Do you really belive today's cops are braver , work harder and are less violent than those of the past ?


I can tell you they are less violent than in the past. Back in the good old days it was common for police to use a few swats with a baton to "persuade" people to follow directions. You will also find that a lot of petty criminals didn't get arrested and go to court, they got their punishment at the hands (and feet and batons) of the cop on the beat. Go back even farther and you will find that questioning could often be a fairly painful for the questionee and this was considered normal.

Google and watch some videos of the police 'dealing' with civil rights marchers and Vietnam war protesters then tell me if you think the police today would be allowed to 'deal' with them that way.


----------



## gibbsgirl

watcher said:


> I can tell you they are less violent than in the past. Back in the good old days it was common for police to use a few swats with a baton to "persuade" people to follow directions. You will also find that a lot of petty criminals didn't get arrested and go to court, they got their punishment at the hands (and feet and batons) of the cop on the beat. Go back even farther and you will find that questioning could often be a fairly painful for the questionee and this was considered normal.
> 
> Google and watch some videos of the police 'dealing' with civil rights marchers and Vietnam war protesters then tell me if you think the police today would be allowed to 'deal' with them that way.


This I very much agree with. Things in our country are better in many ways than in the past for dealing with cops. 

I still recognize though that there are still bad ones and even just complacent ones, and I hope it continues to get better.

More options to film them conducting business and more citizen journalists, I hope is going to help with that in the coming years.


----------



## gapeach

AmericanStand said:


> Oh because I don't worship at their feet ?
> Do you really belive today's cops are braver , work harder and are less violent than those of the past ?


No, but crime has never run more rampant than right now.
We don't need to worship cops but we do need to support them. 99% of cops are honest and try to do the best job that they can. 
*Reader: 99-Percent of Cops Are Good Cops *

http://www.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2010/01/reader_99-percent_of_cops_are.php


----------



## MO_cows

AmericanStand said:


> Oh because I don't worship at their feet ?
> Do you really belive today's cops are braver , work harder and are less violent than those of the past ?


Yes, a very good case could be made for that. How often you see a cop twirling their billy club any more? They used to be artists with those things, a lot of arrestees got the snot beat out of them. But in days gone by, people didn't care so much about the criminal's rights. If they got a beatin before their fair trial, nobody was likely to complain if they were a career criminal. So check, less violent.

Work harder? Used to, cops went in pairs, had a partner with them. You hardly ever see that any more. They are on their own when they patrol, so yes that is working harder.

Braver? That's very subjective. But it's only been the last 20 years or so we've been hearing about hollow points, "cop killer" ammo. And gangs were not so organized and violent in the past, either. So they do seem to be taking more risk, you could call that "braver".


----------



## Evons hubby

Whatever became of Dirty Harry? He never beat up or killed the good guys!


----------



## gibbsgirl

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Whatever became of Dirty Harry? He never beat up or killed the good guys!


Lol, I don't know about dirty Harry. But, I've got two wees lads set to be Mexican banditos for Halloween. Seems they've inherited a soft spot in their hearts for those spaghetti westerns from their grandfather. Hehehe.


----------



## Evons hubby

gibbsgirl said:


> Lol, I don't know about dirty Harry. But, I've got two wees lads set to be Mexican banditos for Halloween. Seems they've inherited a soft spot in their hearts for those spaghetti westerns from their grandfather. Hehehe.


My father in law and I love them old sgetti westerns too. We can oft be found watching them together. Bandaleros is one of our faves. Hope those banditos of yours have a great Halloween.


----------



## Patchouli

kasilofhome said:


> That is you position that failing to ensure that parent does not put their childs life at risk by failing to check toy guns..
> 
> I am very much against cps but they could very well declare such a parent is putting the child in harm's way and remove such a parent from what little duties and responsibilities and rights a parent has still today.



You know what is absolutely hands down the most absurd thing about this argument? I bet every one of you owns a real gun. Probably more than one. And statistically your kid is far more likely to die from your personal choice to own a gun than from playing with a plastic one. 

So why don't all of you super responsible parents go turn your guns it at your nearest police station. The absurdities y'all will leap to here boggle the mind.


----------



## Patchouli

gapeach said:


> No, but crime has never run more rampant than right now.
> We don't need to worship cops but we do need to support them. 99% of cops are honest and try to do the best job that they can.
> *Reader: 99-Percent of Cops Are Good Cops *
> 
> http://www.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2010/01/reader_99-percent_of_cops_are.php


First are you aware that your link is to a reader's comment on a news story? I will counter his personal opinion with mine that oh I think maybe, probably 90% are good guys just trying to do the right thing. I would adjust that percentage lower in some areas and higher in others. 

Crime according to the stats has been going down for a fairly long time now. 

http://www.moralityindex.com/crime.html

Here are some graphs of those tables, to help you visualize what's been happening.


----------



## watcher

gibbsgirl said:


> This I very much agree with. Things in our country are better in many ways than in the past for dealing with cops.
> 
> I still recognize though that there are still bad ones and even just complacent ones, and I hope it continues to get better.
> 
> More options to film them conducting business and more citizen journalists, I hope is going to help with that in the coming years.


Be careful what you wish for. Once we put a camera on every power pole, every patrol car and cop you can kiss most of your privacy good-bye.


----------



## Evons hubby

watcher said:


> Be careful what you wish for. Once we put a camera on every power pole, every patrol car and cop you can kiss most of your privacy good-bye.


Paranoia will destroy ya. You and H.G. Wells with the big brother is watching stuff.... Next you will be talking about rewriting our histo..... Um yeah, they are already doing that too, carry on.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Patchouli said:


> You know what is absolutely hands down the most absurd thing about this argument? I bet every one of you owns a real gun. Probably more than one. And statistically your kid is far more likely to die from your personal choice to own a gun than from playing with a plastic one.
> 
> So why don't all of you super responsible parents go turn your guns it at your nearest police station. The absurdities y'all will leap to here boggle the mind.


Speaking of absurd...


----------



## TripleD

Patchouli said:


> You know what is absolutely hands down the most absurd thing about this argument? I bet every one of you owns a real gun. Probably more than one. And statistically your kid is far more likely to die from your personal choice to own a gun than from playing with a plastic one.
> 
> So why don't all of you super responsible parents go turn your guns it at your nearest police station. The absurdities y'all will leap to here boggle the mind.


You bet I own a gun. You are correct I own mooorrrre than 1. I don't have any children, but all my nephews age 12 to 22 have their on AR15 as well as a few other things. They stay in a safe till shooting day and that costs a lot. Its my money and I spend it like I want to !!!


----------



## gapeach

Patchouli said:


> First are you aware that your link is to a reader's comment on a news story? I will counter his personal opinion with mine that oh I think maybe, probably 90% are good guys just trying to do the right thing. I would adjust that percentage lower in some areas and higher in others.
> 
> Crime according to the stats has been going down for a fairly long time now.
> 
> http://www.moralityindex.com/crime.html
> 
> It depends on where you read:
> Cleveland union president cites &#8216;Ferguson effect&#8217; as cause for crime trends *While violent crime is up in Cleveland, fewer criminal cases are appearing in court*
> 
> Sep 4, 2015
> By PoliceOne Staff
> CLEVELAND, Ohio &#8212; An investigation by the FOX 8 Cleveland team found that violent crimes are increasing in the city, but court appearances are decreasing.
> Cleveland Police Patrolman&#8217;s Association President Steve Loomis told the publication the trend is due to the current culture around policing.
> One year after Ferguson: Looking ahead to the future of policing
> A year later, law enforcement has been under immense scrutiny and has undergone undeniable change.
> &#8220;Call it the Ferguson effect, call it the Baltimore effect, call it the Cleveland effect. Guys are no longer willing to proactively police," Loomis told FOX 8.
> Officers are hesitating to fight crime because they&#8217;re afraid of the consequences, tired of seeing riots against police and have become demoralized by federal officials questioning their operations, Loomis told the news site.
> *Crimes have increased. Statistics obtained by the FOX 8 team show armed robberies have risen 7 percent, murder is up 18 percent and felony assaults with a gun have risen 32 percent.*
> Felony cases filed with the Cleveland Clerk&#8217;s Office have decreased 19 percent, and where police turn in cases, indictments are down 12 percent.
> Just this past week on Sept. 1, a man fired several shots at Cleveland cops on patrol.
> 
> http://www.policeone.com/community-...es-Ferguson-effect-as-cause-for-crime-trends/
> 
> You cannot ignore the facts.


----------



## AmericanStand

MO_cows said:


> Yes, a very good case could be made for that. How often you see a cop twirling their billy club any more? They used to be artists with those things, a lot of arrestees got the snot beat out of them. But in days gone by, people didn't care so much about the criminal's rights. If they got a beatin before their fair trial, nobody was likely to complain if they were a career criminal. So check, less violent ".



Lol you know you and watcher had me for a while. I've taken a few billy club beatings and I can't say they were pleasant. 

It wasn't till I thought those through that it dawned on me. 
Those cops didn't carry a gun
Or a taser 
Or a 9 cell flashlight.


----------



## watcher

AmericanStand said:


> Lol you know you and watcher had me for a while. I've taken a few billy club beatings and I can't say they were pleasant.
> 
> It wasn't till I thought those through that it dawned on me.
> Those cops didn't carry a gun
> Or a taser
> Or a 9 cell flashlight.


Don't know where you were raised but the ones I'm talking about carried a firearm. Almost always a S&W Military and Police .38 Special loaded with, IIRC, a 158 grain round nose lead bullet.


----------



## Patchouli

Tricky Grama said:


> Speaking of absurd...


Thank you for proving my point. :thumb:


----------



## Patchouli

gapeach said:


> Patchouli said:
> 
> 
> 
> First are you aware that your link is to a reader's comment on a news story? I will counter his personal opinion with mine that oh I think maybe, probably 90% are good guys just trying to do the right thing. I would adjust that percentage lower in some areas and higher in others.
> 
> Crime according to the stats has been going down for a fairly long time now.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.moralityindex.com/crime.html
> 
> It depends on where you read:
> Cleveland union president cites &#8216;Ferguson effect&#8217; as cause for crime trends *While violent crime is up in Cleveland, fewer criminal cases are appearing in court*
> 
> Sep 4, 2015
> By PoliceOne Staff
> CLEVELAND, Ohio &#8212; An investigation by the FOX 8 Cleveland team found that violent crimes are increasing in the city, but court appearances are decreasing.
> Cleveland Police Patrolman&#8217;s Association President Steve Loomis told the publication the trend is due to the current culture around policing.
> One year after Ferguson: Looking ahead to the future of policing
> A year later, law enforcement has been under immense scrutiny and has undergone undeniable change.
> &#8220;Call it the Ferguson effect, call it the Baltimore effect, call it the Cleveland effect. Guys are no longer willing to proactively police," Loomis told FOX 8.
> Officers are hesitating to fight crime because they&#8217;re afraid of the consequences, tired of seeing riots against police and have become demoralized by federal officials questioning their operations, Loomis told the news site.
> *Crimes have increased. Statistics obtained by the FOX 8 team show armed robberies have risen 7 percent, murder is up 18 percent and felony assaults with a gun have risen 32 percent.*
> Felony cases filed with the Cleveland Clerk&#8217;s Office have decreased 19 percent, and where police turn in cases, indictments are down 12 percent.
> Just this past week on Sept. 1, a man fired several shots at Cleveland cops on patrol.
> 
> http://www.policeone.com/community-...es-Ferguson-effect-as-cause-for-crime-trends/
> 
> You cannot ignore the facts.
Click to expand...

In Cleveland. Not nationwide. And the rest is just opinion not proven fact. So the Cleveland Police Union President blames Ferguson or Baltimore or his cops laying down on the job. Big fat whoopty do.  I bet the Cleveland cops would have a bone to pick with him over that interview. 

And if he wants to point any finger he should start with the DOJ investigation of Cleveland's PD for "excessive and deadly force against residents". It's a real eye opener, those on the pro-cop side should read it. 



> Our investigation concluded that there is reasonable cause to believe that CDP engages in a pattern or practice of using unreasonable force in violation of the Fourth Amendment. That
> pattern manifested in a range of ways, including:
> 
> 
> The unnecessary and excessive use of deadly force, including shootings and head strikes with impact weapons;
> The unnecessary, excessive or retaliatory use of less lethal force including tasers, chemical spray and fists;
> Excessive force against persons who are mentally ill or in crisis, including in cases where the officers were called exclusively for a welfare check; and
> The employment of poor and dangerous tactics that place officers in situations where avoidable force becomes inevitable and places officers and civilians at unnecessary risk.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...report-about-the-cleveland-police-department/



> In other cases, officers deployed unreasonable force against people with mental illness:We reviewed one incident where&#8212;in response to a request for assistance&#8212;a CDP officer tased a suicidal, deaf man who committed no crime, posed minimal risk to officers and may not have understood officers&#8217; commands. &#8220;Larry&#8217;s&#8221; mother had requested CDP&#8217;s assistance because her son, who has bipolar disorder and communicates through sign language, was holding broken glass against his neck and threatening suicide. When officers arrived, Larry went into the bathroom and sat on the edge of a half-filled tub. The officers followed and, without confirming that Larry could communicate through notes, wrote him a note saying that he needed to go to the hospital. Larry waved his hands &#8220;aggressively,&#8221; which the officers interpreted as refusal. One of the officers then grabbed Larry&#8217;s arm. Larry pulled back, &#8220;struggling&#8221; with the officer. The other officer then yelled &#8220;Taser&#8221; and pointed his finger at his Taser. Larry continued to struggle, so the officer tased Larry in his chest.
> 
> 
> Or needing medical care:In another incident involving the use of a Taser against a person in crisis, a CDP officer tased a man, despite the fact that he was suffering a medical emergency and was strapped onto a gurney in the back of an ambulance, because he was verbally threatening officers.​The report found officers who did not "consider carefully enough their actions" when drawing their weapons:In one instance, an officer&#8217;s decision to draw his gun while trying to apprehend an unarmed hit-and-run suspect resulted in him accidentally shooting the man in the neck. The man was critically injured.​These stories don't even touch on the DOJ's second grave set of conclusions: that the department failed do much about such misconduct after it occurred.​


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-from-cleveland-on-why-we-need-police-reform/


----------



## arabian knight

Tricky Grama said:


> Speaking of absurd...


You got that right I nearly gaged and spit up from laughing so hard when I read that one.


----------



## arabian knight

I grew up in a household that had Tons of guns in a UNLOCKED case.
I was told *NO DON'T TOUCH.*
And by golly if you did all heck would be unleashed on you. The FEAR of God was put on us.
And the Razor Belt was also within sight too. LOL


----------



## Cornhusker

arabian knight said:


> I grew up in a household that had Tons of guns in a UNLOCKED case.
> I was told *NO DON'T TOUCH.*
> And by golly if you did all heck would be unleashed on you. The FEAR of God was put on us.
> And the Razor Belt was also within sight too. LOL


Parenting.....


----------



## Sawmill Jim

arabian knight said:


> I grew up in a household that had Tons of guns in a UNLOCKED case.
> I was told *NO DON'T TOUCH.*
> And by golly if you did all heck would be unleashed on you. The FEAR of God was put on us.
> And the Razor Belt was also within sight too. LOL


Ever notice how long a good dose of razor strap lasted :stars:


----------



## gibbsgirl

watcher said:


> Be careful what you wish for. Once we put a camera on every power pole, every patrol car and cop you can kiss most of your privacy good-bye.


I didn't wish for it. I think most of our privacy is gone already. There aren't any real limits to govt intrusion anymore, other than govt doesn't have the manpower (yet) to act individually against the lot of us all at once.

I was just trying to hope for a little sunshine during cloudy days.

The instant broadcast/post social media beast is one that we'd probably all be better off without in most circumstances. 

But, since its here for the foreseeable future, maybe it can at least do some good.


----------



## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> Ever notice how long a good dose of razor strap lasted :stars:


Twenty four hours was granny's timeframe on that one. Every morning she would wake us up and give us our lickin for the day, she didn't want to bothered or interrupted with such nonsense all day long. Not a bad system really, it provided us boys with a certain level of structure in an otherwise chaotic environment and got us fewer lickins overall! :cowboy:


----------



## Trixie

gibbsgirl said:


> I didn't wish for it. I think most of our privacy is gone already. There aren't any real limits to govt intrusion anymore, other than govt doesn't have the manpower (yet) to act individually against the lot of us all at once.
> 
> I was just trying to hope for a little sunshine during cloudy days.
> 
> The instant broadcast/post social media beast is one that we'd probably all be better off without in most circumstances.
> 
> But, since its here for the foreseeable future, maybe it can at least do some good.


Yes, if it's here, then let's use the good of it as well.

I don't like the idea of cameras everywhere, but I don't have a problem with
having them on police cars and uniforms.

It would be great, I think, if every trial should be on camera and I don't mean Court TV, with 5 minutes of trial and 20 minutes of lawyers promoting themselves - but gavel to gavel

It was reported they were try to pass a law in Texas making it illegal to film law enforcement, as in doing their duty or interaction with others. I don't know if it was passed or not.


----------



## k9

Some people just shouldn't reproduce.


----------



## AmericanStand

Trixie said:


> It was reported they were try to pass a law in Texas making it illegal to film law enforcement, as in doing their duty or interaction with others. I don't know if it was passed or not.



They did that In Illinois. 
SCOTUS ruled against it.


----------



## gapeach

&#8216;*Black Lives Matter&#8217;&#8212;but Reality, Not So Much*
The movement was founded on a falsehood. Scapegoating the police ignores the true threats to the urban poor.
By Jason L. Riley
Sept. 8, 2015 7:31 p.m. ET
Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it, so that when men come to be undeceived, it is too late; the jest is over, and the tale hath had its effect.
&#8212; Jonathan Swift (1667-1745)

The great lie of the summer has been the Black Lives Matter movement. It was founded on one falsehood&#8212;that a Ferguson, Mo., police officer shot a black suspect who was trying to surrender&#8212;and it is perpetuated by another: that trigger-happy cops are filling our morgues with young black men.
The reality is that Michael Brown is dead because he robbed a convenience store, assaulted a uniformed officer and then made a move for the officer&#8217;s gun. The reality is that a cop is six times more likely to be killed by someone black than the reverse. The reality is that the Michael Browns are a much bigger threat to black lives than are the police. &#8220;Every year, the casualty count of black-on-black crime is twice that of the death toll of 9/11,&#8221; wrote former New York City police detective Edward Conlon in a Journal essay on Saturday. &#8220;I don&#8217;t understand how a movement called &#8216;Black Lives Matter&#8217; can ignore the leading cause of death among young black men in the U.S., which is homicide by their peers.&#8221;
Actually, it&#8217;s not hard to understand at all, once you realize that this movement is not about the fate of blacks per se but about scapegoating the police in particular, and white America in general, for antisocial ghetto behavior. It&#8217;s about holding whites to a higher standard than the young black men in these neighborhoods hold each other to. Ultimately, it&#8217;s a political movement, the inevitable extension of a racial and ethnic spoils system that helps Democrats get elected. The Black Lives Matter narrative may be demonstrably false, but it&#8217;s also politically expedient.
It&#8217;s the black poor&#8212;the primary victims of violent crimes and thus the people most in need of effective policing&#8212;who must live with the effects of these falsehoods. As the Black Lives Matter movement has spread, murder rates have climbed in cities across the country, from New Orleans to Baltimore to St. Louis and Chicago. The Washington, D.C., homicide rate is 43% higher than it was a year ago. By the end of August, Milwaukee and New Haven, Conn., both had already seen more murders than in all of 2014.
read more..............
http://archive.is/r642r

Wall Street Journal, September 8, 2014

TV Series COPS has been on since 1989......over 25 years. How many people reading this have not seen a suspect running away with officers and a camera crew in hot pursuit? What happens when they get caught. ...most times there's resisting arrest, assault on an officer, tasers. ....drawn weapons.....so where does all the surprise come from when the same thing happens but is recorded on a cell phone vs professionals? One more thing for this particular rant.....many are upset because cops are shooting "unarmed" suspects. How are the cops supposed to know they're unarmed? The police have to make split second decisions. Most do the very best job that they can do for nobody to be hurt.


----------



## AmericanStand

gapeach said:


> One more thing for this particular rant.....many are upset because cops are shooting "unarmed" suspects. How are the cops supposed to know they're unarmed? The police have to make split second decisions. Most do the very best job that they can do for nobody to be hurt.[/SIZE]



Bull
Most do their very best to make sure THEY don't get hurt. 
That's not their job. 
You ask the wrong question. You don't shoot a person even if armed unless they are about to kill you with the weapon. That means out aimed and in the process of firing. 
The quoted is a case of backwards thinking.


----------



## gapeach

AmericanStand said:


> Bull
> Most do their very best to make sure THEY don't get hurt.
> That's not their job.
> You ask the wrong question. You don't shoot a person even if armed unless they are about to kill you with the weapon. That means out aimed and in the process of firing.
> The quoted is a case of backwards thinking.


You did not quote my whole commentary.


----------



## AmericanStand

I did not want to comment on the entire commentary. 
Was it all Yours ? I found the authorship confusing.


----------



## Cornhusker

AmericanStand said:


> You don't shoot a person even if armed unless they are about to kill you with the weapon. That means out aimed and in the process of firing.


You've never seen a real gun have you?


----------



## k9

Cornhusker, you can't prove a point to someone that isn't in reality.


----------



## where I want to

AmericanStand said:


> Bull
> Most do their very best to make sure THEY don't get hurt.
> That's not their job.
> You ask the wrong question. You don't shoot a person even if armed unless they are about to kill you with the weapon. That means out aimed and in the process of firing.
> The quoted is a case of backwards thinking.


Isn't that too late to successfully prevent them shooting you first?


----------



## Cornhusker

where I want to said:


> Isn't that too late to successfully prevent them shooting you first?


That's probably his point
Cop haters who love drug dealers usually aren't physics teachers.


----------



## AmericanStand

where I want to said:


> Isn't that too late to successfully prevent them shooting you first?



Very likely.


----------



## AmericanStand

Cornhusker said:


> You've never seen a real gun have you?



From both ends.


----------



## AmericanStand

Cornhusker said:


> That's probably his point
> 
> Cop haters who love drug dealers usually aren't physics teachers.



I don't hate cops I have friends that are cops. 
But I don't worship them.
Nor do I love any drug dealers except as a part of my love for mankind.


----------



## Patchouli

Cornhusker said:


> You've never seen a real gun have you?


I have. I have had a shotgun pointed at me before. I have handled guns here on the farm and in the military. And Americanstand is right you don't shoot someone because you think they may have a gun. You don't even have to shoot them if they pull what looks like a gun. Depending on the situation you can talk people into putting the weapon down. Your goal should always be to save as many lives as possible.


----------



## Nevada

Patchouli said:


> And Americanstand is right you don't shoot someone because you think they may have a gun. You don't even have to shoot them if they pull what looks like a gun.


Is their plan to shoot anyone doing open carry?


----------



## Patchouli

Nevada said:


> Is their plan to shoot anyone doing open carry?


Strangely enough if you are a belligerent white guy trotting down the street armed to the teeth with a military style rifle you are 100% safe.


----------



## Evons hubby

AmericanStand said:


> I don't hate cops I have friends that are cops.
> But I don't worship them.
> Nor do I love any drug dealers except as a part of my love for mankind.


My drug dealer literally saves my life on a regular basis. Without my meds I wouldn't last two weeks. 

Haven't had any cop save my life yet.


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> Strangely enough if you are a belligerent white guy trotting down the street armed to the teeth with a military style rifle you are 100% safe.


Yep, that guy doesn't need a cop, covers his own backside.


----------



## where I want to

Yvonne's hubby said:


> My drug dealer literally saves my life on a regular basis. Without my meds I wouldn't last two weeks.
> 
> Haven't had any cop save my life yet.


What a short horizon to have. You've probably had your life saved or a family member's life saved but you never noticed. The police that show up to arrest the pharmacist who is selling adulterated medications. Or who pried a"drug dealer" out of a car wreck so he was there to supply you. Or the bank thief who is caught eventually so the drug dealer has the money to buy the supplies. Or who stood traffic duty so the fire department could safely cross the street with their hoses. Etc etc etc.


----------



## where I want to

AmericanStand said:


> I don't hate cops I have friends that are cops.
> But I don't worship them.
> Nor do I love any drug dealers except as a part of my love for mankind.


It isn't necessary to worship but a little respect is not out of place.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

where I want to said:


> What a short horizon to have. You've probably had your life saved or a family member's life saved but you never noticed. The police that show up to arrest the pharmacist who is selling adulterated medications. Or who pried a"drug dealer" out of a car wreck so he was there to supply you. Or the bank thief who is caught eventually so the drug dealer has the money to buy the supplies. Or who stood traffic duty so the fire department could safely cross the street with their hoses. Etc etc etc.


Wow you really stretched that one farrrrrrr out . No I don't recall a cop ever saving my life either .I do recall being harassed several times though :cowboy:


----------



## Evons hubby

where I want to said:


> What a short horizon to have. You've probably had your life saved or a family member's life saved but you never noticed. The police that show up to arrest the pharmacist who is selling adulterated medications. Or who pried a"drug dealer" out of a car wreck so he was there to supply you. Or the bank thief who is caught eventually so the drug dealer has the money to buy the supplies. Or who stood traffic duty so the fire department could safely cross the street with their hoses. Etc etc etc.


Ahhh yes, the butterfly affect, crossed with "for the want of a horseshoe nail". I was thinking more along the lines of a bit more direct encounter of some sort. I suppose some doctor may have performed an abortion some where preventing that fetus growing to adulthood and slitting my throat could be considered as saving my life too.


----------



## Evons hubby

where I want to said:


> It isn't necessary to worship but a little respect is not out of place.


I agree here, it's always wise to respect the man with the gun.... Heck I even got plum polite when my first wife leveled off that 12 gauge at me!


----------



## Patchouli

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Patchouli*
> _Strangely enough if you are a belligerent white guy trotting down the street armed to the teeth with a military style rifle you are 100% safe._





Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yep, that guy doesn't need a cop, covers his own backside.


I meant the cops won't shoot him. But I think you knew that.


----------



## where I want to

Sawmill Jim said:


> Wow you really stretched that one farrrrrrr out . No I don't recall a cop ever saving my life either .I do recall being harassed several times though :cowboy:


Horizons. They are not within inches of the individual. And I tend not to think in terms of strictly myself anyway. 

I can't tell whether I have been or not as an individual. But the police did stop a guy who was threatening everyone in my office with a knife. And they arrested one who was throwing every piece if furniture he could reach at people. That guy hurt someone before the police got there and stopped him. 
Of course, the person who was hitting a woman on the street and threatened myself and another person who protested also walked off when an off duty policeman stopped and id'd himself. 

Nope, can't say my life was saved for sure. 

But then I've never been harassed by the police either.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I agree here, it's always wise to respect the man with the gun.... Heck I even got plum polite when my first wife leveled off that 12 gauge at me!


Yea for a few minuet's there I bet you fell in love all over again too :hysterical: ound:


----------



## Evons hubby

Patchouli said:


> I meant the cops won't shoot him. But I think you knew that.


Ever heard of Clyde Barrow? I think they pretty well turned him into hamburger. Something about resisting arrest.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

where I want to said:


> Horizons. They are not within inches of the individual. And I tend not to think in terms of strictly myself anyway.
> 
> I can't tell whether I have been or not as an individual. But the police did stop a guy who was threatening everyone in my office with a knife. And they arrested one who was throwing every piece if furniture he could reach at people. That guy hurt someone before the police got there and stopped him.
> Of course, the person who was hitting a woman on the street and threatened myself and another person who protested also walked off when an off duty policeman stopped and id'd himself.
> 
> Nope, can't say my life was saved for sure.
> 
> But then I've never been harassed by the police either.


Well I never worked places that could not stop a guy from threatening someone with a knife or someone throwing furniture either . eep: I would tossed those folks out the nearest window 

Had a guy walk in a business I ran once had his hands deep in his pockets and announced the place looked easy to rob .No time to call the cops twenty miles away at the donut shop so I did the next best thing I could think of . I grabbed my trusty S&W while doing so cocked it aimed it straight at him while telling him if that looked easy to get on with it . That fellow slowly removed his hands ,putting them in the air while saying wait a minuet wait a minuet I am a burglar alarm sells man .I told him in this part of the world he might never get to that part of the story should he not learn any thing at my place . 

Cops carry guns to protect their self and a cop twenty miles away is no cop at all . People that can't defend their self might consider a body guard or large gun.eep:


----------



## Evons hubby

where I want to said:


> Horizons. They are not within inches of the individual. And I tend not to think in terms of strictly myself anyway.
> 
> I can't tell whether I have been or not as an individual. But the police did stop a guy who was threatening everyone in my office with a knife. And they arrested one who was throwing every piece if furniture he could reach at people. That guy hurt someone before the police got there and stopped him.
> Of course, the person who was hitting a woman on the street and threatened myself and another person who protested also walked off when an off duty policeman stopped and id'd himself.
> 
> Nope, can't say my life was saved for sure.
> 
> *But then I've never been harassed by the police either*.


Never been harassed by a cop? Oh my, you are in for a treat!


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ever heard of Clyde Barrow? I think they pretty well turned him into hamburger. Something about resisting arrest.


They were just jealous ,because he made more money than they did too :hysterical:


----------



## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> Yea for a few minuet's there I bet you fell in love all over again too :hysterical: ound:


Nope, you might say that was the straw that broke this old camels back.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ever heard of Clyde Barrow? I think they pretty well turned him into hamburger. Something about resisting arrest.


I think that had more to do with killing people than resisting arrest.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Irish Pixie said:


> I think that had more to do with killing people than resisting arrest.


Who did he kill that day ? If he killed no one that day it would been resisting arrest as he was not yet convicted of a crime only alleged crimes . You can't have things both ways remember innocent till proved guilty :cowboy:


----------



## MO_cows

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ever heard of Clyde Barrow? I think they pretty well turned him into hamburger. Something about resisting arrest.


Clyde was not resisting arrest when he was shot into pieces. That was an ambush. 

Now his brother Buck got shot in the head while "resisting arrest" when the cops tried to capture them just north of Kansas City. (The wound killed him but it took a few days.) A small town sheriff and some highway patrolmen came within a whisker of capturing Bonnie, Clyde and 3 others of the Barrow gang that night. It would have changed the course of history. Not to mention, shortened the movie by quite a bit!

Don't use history to make your point if you can't be bothered to get it right.


----------



## AmericanStand

where I want to said:


> It isn't necessary to worship but a little respect is not out of place.



I'm. Willing to listen to arguments as to why ?


----------



## Evons hubby

AmericanStand said:


> I'm. Willing to listen to arguments as to why ?


It might keep the beatings to a minimum.


----------



## where I want to

AmericanStand said:


> I'm. Willing to listen to arguments as to why ?


Because somehow you seem to feel respect is the due of everyone no matter what he is doing wrong while the mere fact that someone has a uniform and a job to do seems to forfeit that respect no matter what good they are doing. 
That is such an personally inconsistent position that I can not help but think that it is caused by you rather than by the police who have never given me a second look. There has to be a reason for the difference.


----------



## rambler

Patchouli said:


> In one of the threads below Yvonne's Hubby asked me what I thought the real problem was when it comes to the current state of police and citizens in this country. The number one problem in my opinion is that police are killing citizens as a first resort rather than a last one. This campaign aims to end that and I think their ideas are sound. Crime has been on a steady decrease for a long while now. So have police deaths in the line of duty. And yet citizen deaths are on the rise. That has to stop.
> 
> *What is Campaign Zero?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.vox.com/2015/8/21/9188729/police-black-lives-matter-campaign-zero


That's no solution, tho.

Our society is fragmenting into groups that don't care to achieve anything, have no moral compass, have no adult mentors - fathers, for example - to teach and show them anything have no direction in life.

We can outright ban cops completely, have no criminal laws whatsoever, which seems to be the direction your group wants to go, but that will not make a better so city, a better neighborhood.

Cops are not the issue in any of this only a sideline.

We need better families. To make better people, to make better neighborhoods, to make a better world.

You are looking at brandade stuff, we need to start at the cause of the problems. Cops are not the root cause of any of this. They are a minor sideshow.

Paul


----------



## arabian knight

We sure as heck don't need this cop reform heck if anything they need to be Better armed then what the bad guys have. And in some cases they are. Good for them.


----------



## AmericanStand

where I want to said:


> Because somehow you seem to feel respect is the due of everyone no matter what he is doing wrong while the mere fact that someone has a uniform and a job to do seems to forfeit that respect no matter what good they are doing.
> 
> That is such an personally inconsistent position that I can not help but think that it is caused by you rather than by the police who have never given me a second look. There has to be a reason for the difference.



There are some things that demand a higher standard. 

Cops , teachers , pilots, truck drivers should be far better in their areas of expertise than joe average.


----------



## Cornhusker

Instead of treating the police as criminals, why not treat the criminals as criminals and stop making excuses?


----------



## gapeach

*
Good Samaritans help Polk deputy beaten during traffic stop*
By Christal Hayes September 7, 2015
Orlando Sentinel

The Polk County Sheriff's Office is thanking three men who helped catch a suspect who they say beat up a deputy during a traffic stop, a sheriff's spokeswoman said Monday.

During a routine traffic stop Sunday morning, deputy sheriff Mike Walsh was knocked to the ground by a man and punched repeatedly, sheriff's spokeswoman Carrie Horstman said. After the man, Corey Johnson, 32, took off on foot, three Good Samaritans came to the deputy's aide and helped catch Johnson.

"These three men, who do not know each other or Deputy Walsh, probably had better things to do on a Sunday morning than jump out of their cars to help catch a violent, fleeing suspect," Sheriff Grady Judd said. "We can never thank them enough for their selfless actions &#8230; you are our heroes."

Walsh was patrolling Winter Lake Road in Winter Haven when he saw a vehicle go through a stop sign, Horstman said. Walsh pulled the vehicle over on his motorcycle at around 9 a.m. but when he asked Johnson for his drivers license, Johnson got out of his car and started punching Walsh in the face and head, Horstman said.

Walsh was knocked to the ground and Johnson straddled him, throwing punch after punch to the deputy's face, Horstman said. Johnson also allegedly tried removing some of Walsh's equipment from his duty belt. Walsh was able to flip Johnson off of him and Johnson ran off, the sheriff's office said.

George Cooper, Antonio Velazquez and Christopher Carver were driving in the area and saw the attack, Horstman said.

Cooper rushed to help Walsh, who was laying in the road, and then ran after Johnson. Velazquez stopped his vehicle and tackled Johnson as he was running off. At that point, Walsh was able to get up and help capture Johnson, who was fighting with the men, Horstman said.

Carver saw the struggle and also stopped to help.

"Johnson continued to actively resist all four men's efforts to subdue him," Horstman said. "Walsh's Taser and radio microphone headset were broken during the fight. Through the efforts of the three Good Samaritans, Deputy Walsh was able to take the suspect into custody and call for backup."
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...maritans-help-polk-deputy-20150907-story.html

Score one for the good guys!
The man had a criminal history and had been in jail several times.


----------



## Cornhusker

Good to see the good guys come out on top.
The cop haters ignore those stories, it doesn't fit their narrow view


----------



## Oxankle

Back to Bonnie and Clyde; 

They were ambushed and shot to death on a rural road outside Minden, La. It seems to me that at one time the auto they drove was on exhibit in Minden. 

The reason they were shot is that they had a record of killing lawmen and were known to carry deadly weapons. It is certain that had an attempt to arrest them been made there would have been a gun battle ending with the death of the fugitives and possibly some lawmen. As it was, no lawmen were hurt, the courts were spared the expense of a trial and two killers were taken off the street. 

I approve of this method of reducing robbery and the killing of lawmen. Justice is served and the taxpayer is spared the expense of housing killers for life.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Oxankle said:


> Back to Bonnie and Clyde;
> 
> They were ambushed and shot to death on a rural road outside Minden, La. It seems to me that at one time the auto they drove was on exhibit in Minden.
> 
> The reason they were shot is that they had a record of killing lawmen and were known to carry deadly weapons. It is certain that had an attempt to arrest them been made there would have been a gun battle ending with the death of the fugitives and possibly some lawmen. As it was, no lawmen were hurt, the courts were spared the expense of a trial and two killers were taken off the street.
> 
> I approve of this method of reducing robbery and the killing of lawmen. Justice is served and the taxpayer is spared the expense of housing killers for life.


So murdering two human beings in an ambush was AOK?

ETA: What is your opinion on abortion?


----------



## arabian knight

It sure was when your talking about Bonnie and Clyde yes it is Aok. Your life is not worth a plugger nickel when ti comes to killing of officers if you have no respect for them you have no respect for anyone and you are now a marked person. You just put a death wish on yourself.


----------



## kasilofhome

Murder and killing result in the same ending.... yet are different

People are charged with murder .....but killing no.


----------



## gapeach

The man had several outstanding charges against him. I wish that they had put his picture in the paper so that people could see what kind of sorry weasel he is. 
The criminals by far outnumber the cops.


----------



## arabian knight

They sure do what a sorry state is going on now in the country. All this turn the other cheek and pacifists must be stopped. It didn't work in the 60's and it sure as heck will not work in todays world.


----------



## Cornhusker

Irish Pixie said:


> So murdering two human beings in an ambush was AOK?
> 
> ETW: What is your opinion on abortion?


They were animals, sadistic serial killers.
If you have a mountain lion or wolf killing your calves, would you kill it?


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Irish Pixie said:


> So murdering two human beings in an ambush was AOK?
> 
> ETW: What is your opinion on abortion?


In a way not to different from a liberal view  Bonnie and Clyde knew what they were doing and were making a career of it,just having fun .

People advocating for abortions ,like to have fun then kill the evidence of their deeds to escape responsibility of their actions .


----------



## gapeach

sorry, posted on wrong page....

The man had several outstanding charges against him. I wish that they had put his picture in the paper so that people could see what kind of sorry weasel he is. 
The criminals by far outnumber the cops.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Sawmill Jim said:


> In a way not to different from a liberal view  Bonnie and Clyde knew what they were doing and were making a career of it,just having fun .
> 
> People advocating for abortions ,like to have fun then kill the evidence of their deeds to escape responsibility of their actions .


You're saying it's OK to ambush and murder two human beings? It's widely known that Bonnie Parker never killed anyone yet she was murdered in the ambush too. That's AOK as well?

What is your stance on abortion?

Why drag politics into this?


----------



## Irish Pixie

Cornhusker said:


> They were animals, sadistic serial killers.
> If you have a mountain lion or wolf killing your calves, would you kill it?


No, they were human beings. 

You're saying it's OK to ambush and murder two human beings? It's widely known that Bonnie Parker never killed anyone yet she was murdered in the ambush too. That's AOK as well?

You are pro unborn, yes?


----------



## TripleD

Give it a rest guys they were just aborted past their 70th trimester .....


----------



## AmericanStand

Cornhusker said:


> Instead of treating the police as criminals, why not treat the criminals as criminals and stop making excuses?



Because police that break laws and don't do thier jobs ARE criminals. The worst kind of criminal.


----------



## Patchouli

Irish Pixie said:


> So murdering two human beings in an ambush was AOK?
> 
> ETA: What is your opinion on abortion?



He's against it is my bet. Another one of those dichotomies we see here so frequently. They will go on in agonised strains over the horrors of fetal pain (even though there isn't any) and then get all gleeful over filling people full of bullets. It's bizarre.


----------



## AmericanStand

Oxankle said:


> Back to Bonnie and Clyde;
> 
> They were ambushed and shot to death on a rural road outside Minden, La. It seems to me that at one time the auto they drove was on exhibit in Minden.
> .



Now it's at prim Nevada usually at Whisky Pete's.


----------



## kasilofhome

Sawmill Jim said:


> In a way not to different from a liberal view  Bonnie and Clyde knew what they were doing and were making a career of it,just having fun .
> 
> People advocating for abortions ,like to have fun then kill the evidence of their deeds to escape responsibility of their actions .





Irish Pixie said:


> You're saying it's OK to ambush and murder two human beings? It's widely known that Bonnie Parker never killed anyone yet she was murdered in the ambush too. That's AOK as well?
> 
> What is your stance on abortion?
> 
> Why drag politics into this?


Seems you asked a question that was political.... so why DID you drag politics into it AND wonder?


----------



## Irish Pixie

kasilofhome said:


> Seems you asked a question that was political.... so why DID you drag politics into it AND wonder?


Please point out what I said that was political.


----------



## k9

Really, you can't understand defending an unborn baby that has never made a choice to commit a crime or wrong anyone and not defend Bonnie and Clyde?


----------



## Irish Pixie

k9 said:


> Really, you can't understand defending an unborn baby that has never made a choice to commit a crime or wrong anyone and not defend Bonnie and Clyde?


So you're OK with the murder of two human beings but see abortion as wrong?


----------



## kasilofhome

Irish Pixie said:


> Please point out what I said that was political.


:hysterical: sorry if it was missed by some, But others see it. Not willing to play game.


----------



## Irish Pixie

kasilofhome said:


> :hysterical: sorry if it was by some missed. But others see it. Not willing to play game.


I see. You are baiting/trolling. That's not nice.


----------



## painterswife

kasilofhome said:


> Seems you asked a question that was political.... so why DID you drag politics into it AND wonder?


For someone who posted on and on about wanting no moderation and no deletion of posts, you seem to have made a miraculous turn around. You want whole threads deleted, posts and now you are calling out people about what you think are possible political threads. Have a change of heart or are you trying to get an invite to the modsquad?


----------



## Sawmill Jim

TripleD said:


> Give it a rest guys they were just aborted past their 70th trimester .....


Yea an't it odd some get all bent out of shape over late term abortions of criminals and their associates . Then cheer killing a child that is totally innocent,that never hurt anyone . Even stating the child never felt a thing, if killing a non feeling human was legal, why are so many still among the living ? :cowboy:


----------



## kasilofhome

Originally Posted by Sawmill Jim View Post
In a way not to different from a liberal view Bonnie and Clyde knew what they were doing and were making a career of it,just having fun .

People advocating for abortions ,like to have fun then kill the evidence of their deeds to escape responsibility of their actions .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Pixie View Post
You're saying it's OK to ambush and murder two human beings? It's widely known that Bonnie Parker never killed anyone yet she was murdered in the ambush too. That's AOK as well?

What is your stance on abortion?*abortion is political*

Why drag politics into this?
Seems you asked a question that was political.... so why DID you drag politics into it


----------



## Irish Pixie

Sawmill Jim said:


> Yea an't it odd some get all bent out of shape over late term abortions of criminals and their associates . Then cheer killing a child that is totally innocent,that never hurt anyone . Even stating the child never felt a thing, if killing a non feeling human was legal, why are so many still among the living ? :cowboy:


Sorry. I assumed you believed in the Constitution and presumption of innocence. Apparently I was wrong.


----------



## Irish Pixie

kasilofhome said:


> Originally Posted by Sawmill Jim View Post
> In a way not to different from a liberal view Bonnie and Clyde knew what they were doing and were making a career of it,just having fun .
> 
> People advocating for abortions ,like to have fun then kill the evidence of their deeds to escape responsibility of their actions .
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Irish Pixie View Post
> You're saying it's OK to ambush and murder two human beings? It's widely known that Bonnie Parker never killed anyone yet she was murdered in the ambush too. That's AOK as well?
> 
> What is your stance on abortion?*abortion is political*
> 
> Why drag politics into this?
> Seems you asked a question that was political.... so why DID you drag politics into it


Seriously? Abortion is an issue, it's not a political issue.


----------



## painterswife

kasilofhome said:


> Originally Posted by Sawmill Jim View Post
> In a way not to different from a liberal view Bonnie and Clyde knew what they were doing and were making a career of it,just having fun .
> 
> People advocating for abortions ,like to have fun then kill the evidence of their deeds to escape responsibility of their actions .
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Irish Pixie View Post
> You're saying it's OK to ambush and murder two human beings? It's widely known that Bonnie Parker never killed anyone yet she was murdered in the ambush too. That's AOK as well?
> 
> What is your stance on abortion?*abortion is political*
> 
> Why drag politics into this?
> Seems you asked a question that was political.... so why DID you drag politics into it


Abortion is political? Who decided that? You? For me it is a personal decision that has nothing to do with anyone's politics.


----------



## kasilofhome

poÂ·litÂ·iÂ·cal
[p&#601;&#712;litik&#601;l]
ADJECTIVE
of or relating to the government or the public affairs of a country:


Abortion is a subject for which the government has issued policies..


----------



## painterswife

kasilofhome said:


> poÂ·litÂ·iÂ·cal
> [p&#601;&#712;litik&#601;l]
> ADJECTIVE
> of or relating to the government or the public affairs of a country:
> 
> 
> Abortion is a subject for which the government has issued policies..


You are working real hard trying to get an invite to the modsquad.


----------



## Irish Pixie

kasilofhome said:


> poÂ·litÂ·iÂ·cal
> [p&#601;&#712;litik&#601;l]
> ADJECTIVE
> of or relating to the government or the public affairs of a country:
> 
> 
> Abortion is a subject for which the government has issued policies..


I stand corrected. In this very broad definition abortion is considered a political issue.


----------



## painterswife

Irish Pixie said:


> I stand corrected. In this very broad definition abortion is considered a political issue.


Not much we discuss in GC is not political according to that definition. So we should just go with my suggestion from before that they should be combined. That would make Kasilofhomes's life easier. She would not have to be constantly worrying when we talk about the wrong things in the wrong forum.


----------



## kasilofhome

Thank you


----------



## Irish Pixie

painterswife said:


> Not much we discuss in GC is not political according to that definition. So we should just go with my suggestion from before that they should be combined. That would make Kasilofhomes's life easier. She would not have to be constantly worrying when we talk about the wrong things in the wrong forum.


Absolutely. Most of the threads on GC right now are political based on Kasilofhome's definition.


----------



## kasilofhome

And Oxford dictionary.


----------



## Evons hubby

Cornhusker said:


> They were animals, sadistic serial killers.
> If you have a mountain lion or wolf killing your calves, would you kill it?


What happened to "alleged"? They were never charged, never had a trial, not by jury or otherwise. They were simply stalked, ambushed and murdered by the very people being paid by society to protect them.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Irish Pixie said:


> Sorry. I assumed you believed in the Constitution and presumption of innocence. Apparently I was wrong.


No presumption of innocence for the unborn but there were many witnesses of deeds against humanity on B & Cs actions . Now if they would went to the local PD and surrendered things may of went different .

Maybe you should become a bounty hunter and shoe everyone how it is done :hysterical:


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> What happened to "alleged"? They were never charged, never had a trial, not by jury or otherwise. They were simply stalked, ambushed and murdered by the very people being paid by society to protect them.


Only accused of 13 murders a few robberies a little minor kidnapping .You go bring in the next one and we will learn how it is done .Might even put you in for officer of the year . Now the American way is if they didn't kill anyone I knew it's all good .:cowboy:

They had lots of chances to turn their self in :cowboy:


----------



## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> No presumption of innocence for the unborn but there were many witnesses of deeds against humanity on B & Cs actions . Now if they would went to the local PD and surrendered things may of went different .
> 
> Maybe you should become a bounty hunter and shoe everyone how it is done :hysterical:


Did any of those "witnesses" testify at their trial? I thought not.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Irish Pixie said:


> Absolutely. Most of the threads on GC right now are political based on Kasilofhome's definition.


I thought you made the acquisition ,killing babies was political :shrug:


----------



## MO_cows

Irish Pixie said:


> So you're OK with the murder of two human beings but see abortion as wrong?


The murder of those two particular human beings, yes. They were not going be captured without bloodshed. Clyde was a very troubled man, by some accounts he had been sexually abused in prison, and he'd kill anybody he had to not to go back. 

Keep in mind during those times, forensics were very primitive and most police didn't even have a radio system. They had to stop and use somebody's phone, more than likely a party line, to communicate with headquarters. They could not communicate with each other directly at all. (That's where the donut shop stereotype originated, they would have a regular stop to call in to HQ) It was not possible to coordinate the kind of takedown that is possible today. So undoubtedly citizen and police lives were spared by the Bonnie and Clyde ambush.

You can't look at yesterday's events with today's eyes and see a clear picture. You have to take into account the context of the times in which it happened. 

There is zero similarity between Bonnie and Clyde and a healthy fetus who just happens to be inconvenient.


----------



## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> Only accused of 13 murders a few robberies a little minor kidnapping .You go bring in the next one and we will learn how it is done .Might even put you in for officer of the year . Now the American way is if they didn't kill anyone I knew it's all good .:cowboy:
> 
> They had lots of chances to turn their self in :cowboy:


Accused is not the same as convicted. It's one of the reasons we have courts to determine guilt or innocence.


----------



## Patchouli

kasilofhome said:


> poÂ·litÂ·iÂ·cal
> [p&#601;&#712;litik&#601;l]
> ADJECTIVE
> of or relating to the government or the public affairs of a country:
> 
> 
> Abortion is a subject for which the government has issued policies..



Under that definition everything is political and political no longer has any real meaning.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Did any of those "witnesses" testify at their trial? I thought not.


Those 13 murdered weren't available for comment that day . I'm would think after Clyde was disarmed the remaining witnesses could speak up with out fear of retribution :cowboy:


----------



## rambler

Irish Pixie said:


> Sorry. I assumed you believed in the Constitution and presumption of innocence. Apparently I was wrong.


I realize these discussions are among people who already have their opinion made up, and all this discussion is just grandstanding. You and the other person. I understand.

The issue in this thread is a valid one, and it is about how we deal with our criminals.

Pretty much every human being has done something wrong, criminal on some setting or scale. Some of these are pretty minor deals, and some are just horrifically bad.

In a perfect world we would have easy, clear ways to deal with criminals. But, by definition in a perfect world we woundnt have criminals; in the imperfect world we need to come up with ways to cope with the situations we have.

We combine punishment, revenge, and compassion into some sort of rules of law, trial, prison, etc.

This thread brings up a rather narrow portion of all that.

The interaction between cops and potentially criminal people.

From the citizens point of view, they might be really good people haven't done much wrong in their life: or they could be one of the worst of the worst.

How does that cop decide, in perhaps 10-15 seconds, which person they are dealing with?

Some folks will comply with what the cop says, some will defy the cop, some will taunt and assult the cop, some will flee.

If we decide to always shoot everyone all the time we as a society are pretty bad ourselves...

But if we just shrug our shoulders and say oh, anyone define, assaulting, or fleeing a cop should be assumed to be a perfect human being, and we just take a hands off, let thrm be, way of dealing with those people..... I think we will end up with a lot more and more seriously bad bunch of people out on the streets.

The interaction of a cop and a citizen is a little bit more different than you are offering here.

This is the grey period of time - the person might be good or bad; the cops job is to assess the situation, confine the bad people. Let the good people go, and not ever make a mistake. The bad people confined go in front of other branches of law and better sort out good/bad right/wrong.

I don't envy the law officers job of making real world, real time decisions on all this.



There are bad law officers. And good law officers make bad decisions at times. This needs to be worked on, improved, made better.


But so very many really bad, and moderately bad people seem bent on creating as big a ruckus as possible. Anarchy. I see our society slipping in that direction. No rules, no respect, no account.

The very orignal post seems to be saying, citizens should be allowed to threaten cops, be belligerent to cops, flee from cops, and be assumed to be as sweet as mother Terresa in every respect. While cops are vile, evil all the time.

That disgusts me.

In a situation, the cop(s) are in charge of that situation.

Sit down, shut up, behave.

If the cops are bad, then deal with that when that timeframe comes up.

After all. Your point over and over and over is that everyone is innocent until proven guilty?

But, your side seems to be saying the cops are the guilty parties most of the time.

Why aren't they assumed innocent? That is your point over and over and over. Bonnie and Clyde are assumed innocent by you, yet cops are not?

You are not making a case for your point of view.

I don't understand it at all.

When things go wrong, we need to make order of the situation, and sort out who is good and bad, and to what degree, afterwards.

But we need to sort it out when it happens, hold people accountable, and get back on course in minutes, not days or weeks or years.

And that is the grey area of when cops interact in situations.

I will put my faith in the cops trying to sort it out. There needs to be over site, training, weed out the bad ones.

But they get my vote for keeping sanity out of the chaos society would fall to without them.

Groups like the fist message posted about seem interseed in continuing and deepening the chaos, not fixing the problems.

The problems are people have no resepect for nothing any more. See a cop and mouth off, argue, flee, blah blah.

I don't know how you can defend such behavior.

I realize I won't change your mind. And no you won't change mine.

Mostly, I don't understand where you are even coming from? I suppose you will say the same of me, but that leaves us back at the beginning..... We can't really debate this, when we don't even have a clue what the other one is trying to defend?

Paul


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Accused is not the same as convicted. It's one of the reasons we have courts to determine guilt or innocence.


Well maybe Clyde didn't want to go to court ,i'm betting he drove by a few court houses ,I bet they would even made room on their busy docket just for him . Some folks just naturally require more enticement to show up than others . Instead of getting a 40 dollar fine Clyde just had to make those gunman come looking for him .:hysterical:


----------



## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> Those 13 murdered weren't available for comment that day . I'm would think after Clyde was disarmed the remaining witnesses could speak up with out fear of retribution :cowboy:


Well, I am pretty sure Clyde was disarmed by the cops, probably had several other body parts removed as well that day. But hey, he was accused and didn't need to be bogging down the courts at the taxpayers expense so it's all good.


----------



## kasilofhome

Patchouli said:


> Under that definition everything is political and political no longer has any real meaning.


Take that up with Oxford not me.


----------



## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> Well maybe Clyde didn't want to go to court ,i'm betting he drove by a few court houses ,I bet they would even made room on their busy docket just for him . Some folks just naturally require more enticement to show up than others . Instead of getting a 40 dollar fine Clyde just had to make those gunman come looking for him .:hysterical:


I can't say as I blame him for not wanting to go to court, probably figured he wouldn't get a fair trial. Seems his suspicions proved out to be true, it would appear some folks had preconceived notions about his guilt.


----------



## gapeach

rambler said:


> I realize these discussions are among people who already have their opinion made up, and all this discussion is just grandstanding. You and the other person. I understand.
> 
> The issue in this thread is a valid one, and it is about how we deal with our criminals.
> 
> Pretty much every human being has done something wrong, criminal on some setting or scale. Some of these are pretty minor deals, and some are just horrifically bad.
> 
> In a perfect world we would have easy, clear ways to deal with criminals. But, by definition in a perfect world we woundnt have criminals; in the imperfect world we need to come up with ways to cope with the situations we have.
> 
> We combine punishment, revenge, and compassion into some sort of rules of law, trial, prison, etc.
> 
> This thread brings up a rather narrow portion of all that.
> 
> The interaction between cops and potentially criminal people.
> 
> From the citizens point of view, they might be really good people haven't done much wrong in their life: or they could be one of the worst of the worst.
> 
> How does that cop decide, in perhaps 10-15 seconds, which person they are dealing with?
> 
> Some folks will comply with what the cop says, some will defy the cop, some will taunt and assult the cop, some will flee.
> 
> If we decide to always shoot everyone all the time we as a society are pretty bad ourselves...
> 
> But if we just shrug our shoulders and say oh, anyone define, assaulting, or fleeing a cop should be assumed to be a perfect human being, and we just take a hands off, let thrm be, way of dealing with those people..... I think we will end up with a lot more and more seriously bad bunch of people out on the streets.
> 
> The interaction of a cop and a citizen is a little bit more different than you are offering here.
> 
> This is the grey period of time - the person might be good or bad; the cops job is to assess the situation, confine the bad people. Let the good people go, and not ever make a mistake. The bad people confined go in front of other branches of law and better sort out good/bad right/wrong.
> 
> I don't envy the law officers job of making real world, real time decisions on all this.
> 
> 
> 
> There are bad law officers. And good law officers make bad decisions at times. This needs to be worked on, improved, made better.
> 
> 
> But so very many really bad, and moderately bad people seem bent on creating as big a ruckus as possible. Anarchy. I see our society slipping in that direction. No rules, no respect, no account.
> 
> The very orignal post seems to be saying, citizens should be allowed to threaten cops, be belligerent to cops, flee from cops, and be assumed to be as sweet as mother Terresa in every respect. While cops are vile, evil all the time.
> 
> That disgusts me.
> 
> In a situation, the cop(s) are in charge of that situation.
> 
> Sit down, shut up, behave.
> 
> If the cops are bad, then deal with that when that timeframe comes up.
> 
> After all. Your point over and over and over is that everyone is innocent until proven guilty?
> 
> But, your side seems to be saying the cops are the guilty parties most of the time.
> 
> Why aren't they assumed innocent? That is your point over and over and over. Bonnie and Clyde are assumed innocent by you, yet cops are not?
> 
> You are not making a case for your point of view.
> 
> I don't understand it at all.
> 
> When things go wrong, we need to make order of the situation, and sort out who is good and bad, and to what degree, afterwards.
> 
> But we need to sort it out when it happens, hold people accountable, and get back on course in minutes, not days or weeks or years.
> 
> And that is the grey area of when cops interact in situations.
> 
> I will put my faith in the cops trying to sort it out. There needs to be over site, training, weed out the bad ones.
> 
> But they get my vote for keeping sanity out of the chaos society would fall to without them.
> 
> Groups like the fist message posted about seem interseed in continuing and deepening the chaos, not fixing the problems.
> 
> The problems are people have no resepect for nothing any more. See a cop and mouth off, argue, flee, blah blah.
> 
> I don't know how you can defend such behavior.
> 
> I realize I won't change your mind. And no you won't change mine.
> 
> Mostly, I don't understand where you are even coming from? I suppose you will say the same of me, but that leaves us back at the beginning..... We can't really debate this, when we don't even have a clue what the other one is trying to defend?
> 
> Paul


That is a great post. I wish I had your way with words and feel that what you said is sincere.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Sawmill Jim said:


> No presumption of innocence for the unborn but there were many witnesses of deeds against humanity on B & Cs actions . Now if they would went to the local PD and surrendered things may of went different .
> 
> Maybe you should become a bounty hunter and shoe everyone how it is done :hysterical:


When are the unborn charged with any crime? Why would they have the right of presumption of innocence under our justice system? 

Why didn't Bonnie (who never killed) and Clyde get a trial like every other "criminal" in the US? Why do you think it's AOK that their rights were violated and they were murdered? Can you explain please?

I don't understand the bounty hunter reference? I'm just using the Constitution of the United States. Don't you believe in the rights of all US citizens?


----------



## Irish Pixie

MO_cows said:


> The murder of those two particular human beings, yes. They were not going be captured without bloodshed. Clyde was a very troubled man, by some accounts he had been sexually abused in prison, and he'd kill anybody he had to not to go back.
> 
> Keep in mind during those times, forensics were very primitive and most police didn't even have a radio system. They had to stop and use somebody's phone, more than likely a party line, to communicate with headquarters. They could not communicate with each other directly at all. (That's where the donut shop stereotype originated, they would have a regular stop to call in to HQ) It was not possible to coordinate the kind of takedown that is possible today. So undoubtedly citizen and police lives were spared by the Bonnie and Clyde ambush.
> 
> You can't look at yesterday's events with today's eyes and see a clear picture. You have to take into account the context of the times in which it happened.
> 
> There is zero similarity between Bonnie and Clyde and a healthy fetus who just happens to be inconvenient.


Nope, not the way I see it. The difference is one of hypocrisy. If you are pro life, you should be pro life for everyone. After all, it's pro life, right? That's why most of the hypocrites are really pro unborn, not pro life. 

Bonnie and Clyde should not have been ambushed. The definition of murder is: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. Thus, they were murdered rather than brought to justice.


----------



## Patchouli

rambler said:


> The very orignal post seems to be saying, citizens should be allowed to threaten cops, be belligerent to cops, flee from cops, and be assumed to be as sweet as mother Terresa in every respect. While cops are vile, evil all the time.
> 
> That disgusts me.
> 
> In a situation, the cop(s) are in charge of that situation.
> 
> Sit down, shut up, behave.
> 
> If the cops are bad, then deal with that when that timeframe comes up.
> 
> 
> Paul


I culled this down to what I think is the crux of the difference between you and me. As an American citizen I am absolutely not going to sit down, shut up and behave if my rights are being trampled on. Never. I have rights. Constitutional rights and I am sick of seeing them trampled. I am sorry that you are so scared that you are perfectly willing to sit down and let the authorities beat you but I am not and I will not. And I won't stand by while they do it to another American citizen either. 

You want to know why the police are out of control? Because people like you are allowing it. Applauding it. Asking for it.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I can't say as I blame him for not wanting to go to court, probably figured he wouldn't get a fair trial. Seems his suspicions proved out to be true, it would appear some folks had preconceived notions about his guilt.


 Well if he knew if only one of those 13 murders was true ,even forgetting about the other kidnapping charges ,they might just have tried pinning a couple more things on him .


Yea I knew a Sheriff a few years back if he saw one of his local folks breaking a law he just picked up the phone and called them telling them when to come down to his jail . I ask him how well that worked and he said everyone that knew him were always on time . Those that didn't know him were fast learners . :cowboy: That Sheriff would go out of his way to help anyone that acted right .


----------



## Irish Pixie

rambler said:


> I realize these discussions are among people who already have their opinion made up, and all this discussion is just grandstanding. You and the other person. I understand.
> 
> The issue in this thread is a valid one, and it is about how we deal with our criminals.
> 
> Pretty much every human being has done something wrong, criminal on some setting or scale. Some of these are pretty minor deals, and some are just horrifically bad.
> 
> In a perfect world we would have easy, clear ways to deal with criminals. But, by definition in a perfect world we woundnt have criminals; in the imperfect world we need to come up with ways to cope with the situations we have.
> 
> We combine punishment, revenge, and compassion into some sort of rules of law, trial, prison, etc.
> 
> This thread brings up a rather narrow portion of all that.
> 
> The interaction between cops and potentially criminal people.
> 
> From the citizens point of view, they might be really good people haven't done much wrong in their life: or they could be one of the worst of the worst.
> 
> How does that cop decide, in perhaps 10-15 seconds, which person they are dealing with?
> 
> Some folks will comply with what the cop says, some will defy the cop, some will taunt and assult the cop, some will flee.
> 
> If we decide to always shoot everyone all the time we as a society are pretty bad ourselves...
> 
> But if we just shrug our shoulders and say oh, anyone define, assaulting, or fleeing a cop should be assumed to be a perfect human being, and we just take a hands off, let thrm be, way of dealing with those people..... I think we will end up with a lot more and more seriously bad bunch of people out on the streets.
> 
> The interaction of a cop and a citizen is a little bit more different than you are offering here.
> 
> This is the grey period of time - the person might be good or bad; the cops job is to assess the situation, confine the bad people. Let the good people go, and not ever make a mistake. The bad people confined go in front of other branches of law and better sort out good/bad right/wrong.
> 
> I don't envy the law officers job of making real world, real time decisions on all this.
> 
> 
> 
> There are bad law officers. And good law officers make bad decisions at times. This needs to be worked on, improved, made better.
> 
> 
> But so very many really bad, and moderately bad people seem bent on creating as big a ruckus as possible. Anarchy. I see our society slipping in that direction. No rules, no respect, no account.
> 
> The very orignal post seems to be saying, citizens should be allowed to threaten cops, be belligerent to cops, flee from cops, and be assumed to be as sweet as mother Terresa in every respect. While cops are vile, evil all the time.
> 
> That disgusts me.
> 
> In a situation, the cop(s) are in charge of that situation.
> 
> Sit down, shut up, behave.
> 
> If the cops are bad, then deal with that when that timeframe comes up.
> 
> After all. Your point over and over and over is that everyone is innocent until proven guilty?
> 
> But, your side seems to be saying the cops are the guilty parties most of the time.
> 
> Why aren't they assumed innocent? That is your point over and over and over. Bonnie and Clyde are assumed innocent by you, yet cops are not?
> 
> You are not making a case for your point of view.
> 
> I don't understand it at all.
> 
> When things go wrong, we need to make order of the situation, and sort out who is good and bad, and to what degree, afterwards.
> 
> But we need to sort it out when it happens, hold people accountable, and get back on course in minutes, not days or weeks or years.
> 
> And that is the grey area of when cops interact in situations.
> 
> I will put my faith in the cops trying to sort it out. There needs to be over site, training, weed out the bad ones.
> 
> But they get my vote for keeping sanity out of the chaos society would fall to without them.
> 
> Groups like the fist message posted about seem interseed in continuing and deepening the chaos, not fixing the problems.
> 
> The problems are people have no resepect for nothing any more. See a cop and mouth off, argue, flee, blah blah.
> 
> I don't know how you can defend such behavior.
> 
> I realize I won't change your mind. And no you won't change mine.
> 
> Mostly, I don't understand where you are even coming from? I suppose you will say the same of me, but that leaves us back at the beginning..... We can't really debate this, when we don't even have a clue what the other one is trying to defend?
> 
> Paul


Don't put words in my mouth. Where did I say "But, your side seems to be saying the cops are the guilty parties most of the time.

Why aren't they assumed innocent? That is your point over and over and over. Bonnie and Clyde are assumed innocent by you, yet cops are not?" 

I deliberately stayed out of those discussions because I don't feel that the cops are the guilty parties _most of the time_. In the case of Bonnie and Clyde, clearly the cops were guilty, they were *ambushed*. Law enforcement took it upon themselves to be judge, jury, and executioner. Why do you feel that is AOK?

And I don't have a "side" this is not a game. It's my opinion.


----------



## Evons hubby

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope, not the way I see it. The difference is one of hypocrisy. If you are pro life, you should be pro life for everyone. *After all, it's pro life, right? That's why most of the hypocrites are really pro unborn, not pro life. *
> 
> Bonnie and Clyde should not have been ambushed. The definition of murder is: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. Thus, they were murdered rather than brought to justice.


I have found most of them aren't even pro unborn.... They think it's A-OK to deny a child's right to life most every month.... As long as they get to be the ones making the choice.


----------



## TripleD

gapeach said:


> That is a great post. I wish I had your way with words and feel that what you said is sincere.


It was a well thought out post !:goodjob: Too bad it's shot down by people that I'm very glad aren't my neighbors.....


----------



## painterswife

How about you discuss their posts and not make personal proclamations about them as people here on this forum.


----------



## TripleD

painterswife said:


> How about you discuss their posts and not make personal proclamations about them as people here on this forum.


How about have a mod delete my post if They choose to....


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Irish Pixie said:


> When are the unborn charged with any crime? Why would they have the right of presumption of innocence under our justice system?
> 
> Why didn't Bonnie (who never killed) and Clyde get a trial like every other "criminal" in the US? Why do you think it's AOK that their rights were violated and they were murdered? Can you explain please?
> 
> I don't understand the bounty hunter reference? I'm just using the Constitution of the United States. Don't you believe in the rights of all US citizens?


I never expected you to understand the bounty hunter reference . Thing being bail jumpers are sometimes hurt real bad ,so why not go hunt down a few using your gentle touch plus make some money unless you want to do it as just kindness .


The FBI pays good for many they have a 10 most wanted list ,all you got to do in point em out but if you are worried about their health you could just tote em on down to the local PD . Some are just accused so it should be easy enough to do .

Here is anyone a start ,now don't hurt them many an't been convicted yet . Good hunting and remember be gentle:cowboy:

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten


----------



## Irish Pixie

Sawmill Jim said:


> I never expected you to understand the bounty hunter reference . Thing being bail jumpers are sometimes hurt real bad ,so why not go hunt down a few using your gentle touch plus make some money unless you want to do it as just kindness .
> 
> 
> The FBI pays good for many they have a 10 most wanted list ,all you got to do in point em out but if you are worried about their health you could just tote em on down to the local PD . Some are just accused so it should be easy enough to do .
> 
> Here is anyone a start ,now don't hurt them many an't been convicted yet . Good hunting and remember be gentle:cowboy:
> 
> https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten


Are you being facetious? If not, I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Can you try again? 

Also, why didn't you answer my question?


----------



## gapeach

TripleD said:


> It was a well thought out post !:goodjob: Too bad it's shot down by people that I'm very glad aren't my neighbors.....


I would move if they were.


----------



## where I want to

Patchouli said:


> You want to know why the police are out of control? Because people like you are allowing it. Applauding it. Asking for it.


Why are the criminals out of control? Because people like you are allowing it. Applauding it. Asking for it.


----------



## Irish Pixie

gapeach said:


> I would move if they were.


You aren't the only one that would move.  In a NY minute.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Irish Pixie said:


> Are you being facetious? If not, I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Can you try again?
> 
> Also, why didn't you answer my question?


One last try . You are so concerned the crooks are treated gentle . Go get them yourself I even gave you a list some pay a hundred thousand a head . What you waiting for round em up they ,may just be waiting on a ride to jail .:hysterical:


----------



## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> One last try . You are so concerned the crooks are treated gentle . Go get them yourself I even gave you a list some pay a hundred thousand a head . What you waiting for round em up they ,may just be waiting on a ride to jail .:hysterical:


When I was a much younger man I did a little bounty hunting, never hurt anybody. Certainly never ambushed anyone riddling them with machine guns.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Sawmill Jim said:


> One last try . You are so concerned the crooks are treated gentle . Go get them yourself I even gave you a list some pay a hundred thousand a head . What you waiting for round em up they ,may just be waiting on a ride to jail .:hysterical:


Oh, so you were being factitious. I believe that all US citizens have rights via the Constitution so you are ridiculing me? Why don't you feel that all Americans should be granted their rights?

You never did answer my question, "When are the unborn charged with any crime? Why would they have the right of presumption of innocence under our justice system? 

Why didn't Bonnie (who never killed) and Clyde get a trial like every other "criminal" in the US? Why do you think it's AOK that their rights were violated and they were murdered? Can you explain please?"

Can you now?


----------



## MO_cows

Yvonne's hubby said:


> When I was a much younger man I did a little bounty hunting, never hurt anybody. Certainly never ambushed anyone riddling them with machine guns.


I should hope not. 

It isn't the 30's anymore. You aren't allowed to own a machine gun anymore unless you have the license. Furthermore I doubt they sent you after anybody as dangerous as Clyde Barrow. 

I'll say it again, taking today's standards and sensibilities and trying to paste them over the events of the distant past is a waste of everyone's time. Square peg, round hole.


----------



## Evons hubby

MO_cows said:


> I should hope not.
> 
> It isn't the 30's anymore. *You aren't allowed to own a machine gun anymore unless you have the license. *Furthermore I doubt they sent you after anybody as dangerous as Clyde Barrow.
> 
> I'll say it again, taking today's standards and sensibilities and trying to paste them over the events of the distant past is a waste of everyone's time. Square peg, round hole.


wish you would explain that to the bad guys.... I don't think they got the memo.


----------



## MO_cows

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope, not the way I see it. The difference is one of hypocrisy. If you are pro life, you should be pro life for everyone. After all, it's pro life, right? That's why most of the hypocrites are really pro unborn, not pro life.
> 
> Bonnie and Clyde should not have been ambushed. The definition of murder is: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. Thus, they were murdered rather than brought to justice.


Just because you see it differently, doesn't make me a hypocrite. 

It was some PC wordsmith who came up with the term pro life. What most people are is, anti-abortion and not pro life in the literal sense. I don't think it's the same crowd demonstrating at abortion clinics and executions. Probably some overlap there, but not 100%. 

I never said Bonnie and Clyde weren't murdered. Just that I am OK with it. Under those circumstances and during those times, it is understandable. In today's times, it wouldn't be. That's because we continue to evolve and grow both as individuals and a society, and also in no small part because our world and our lives keep getting easier and safer to where we can actually hold such lofty ideals and not compromise our survival.


----------



## MO_cows

Yvonne's hubby said:


> wish you would explain that to the bad guys.... I don't think they got the memo.


I don't remember hearing any news lately about crimes committed with a Tommy gun? 

Sure the bad guys got the memo, if you want to own the most powerful stuff you'll have to pay a lot for it and go underground to get it.


----------



## Irish Pixie

MO_cows said:


> Just because you see it differently, doesn't make me a hypocrite.
> 
> It was some PC wordsmith who came up with the term pro life. What most people are is, anti-abortion and not pro life in the literal sense. I don't think it's the same crowd demonstrating at abortion clinics and executions. Probably some overlap there, but not 100%.
> 
> I never said Bonnie and Clyde weren't murdered. Just that I am OK with it. Under those circumstances and during those times, it is understandable. In today's times, it wouldn't be. That's because we continue to evolve and grow both as individuals and a society, and also in no small part because our world and our lives keep getting easier and safer to where we can actually hold such lofty ideals and not compromise our survival.


I never said you were a hypocrite. This is the perfect example of why I use "collective you" to differentiate between a group and a single person. I apologize for not adding it in the post to you.

The hypocrites are the people that are applauding the fact that Bonnie and Clyde were ambushed and murdered rather than brought to justice. They are the same ones that said that Freddie Gray was worthless. All three were human beings, American's with rights, and were killed by law enforcement. I don't think all cops are thugs, but there are definitely thugs that are cops.


----------



## AmericanStand

kasilofhome said:


> Take that up with Oxford not me.



Lol your English teachers lied when it comes to the American language there is no right and wrong. 
No final authority , not even oxford.


----------



## rambler

Patchouli said:


> I culled this down to what I think is the crux of the difference between you and me. As an American citizen I am absolutely not going to sit down, shut up and behave if my rights are being trampled on. Never. I have rights. Constitutional rights and I am sick of seeing them trampled. I am sorry that you are so scared that you are perfectly willing to sit down and let the authorities beat you but I am not and I will not. And I won't stand by while they do it to another American citizen either.
> 
> You want to know why the police are out of control? Because people like you are allowing it. Applauding it. Asking for it.


There is probably a regional thing as well. In my neck of the woods, the police, the highway patrol, the county deputies, chit chat with folks, help people, etc.

I g pulled over last fall, my back was sore from combining and I weave do to the rumble strips as I drove down the highway, was adjusting my back when there was no oncoming traffic and moved the steering wheel a bit. The deputy said I made a wide turn earlier as well - I never even though about that, I was pulling wagons all day long and -have- to make wide turns, just was natural by then... We had a nice chat about farming, and a little about police work and how in glad he's out doing his job and watching for trouble makers. When he walked up to me I had my billfold in my hand, my hands were up near the top of the steering wheel. When he asked for proof of insurance I said I have to get the new one out of the glove box, my old card just expired ok?

Now, I could be all concerened about my rights (like you sound to me in a case like this...) and be cussing him up and down for wasting my time pulling me over as I rolled the window down, and have my right hand hidden from him as I scream at him for violating my rights...... I coulda linged over to the glove box and slammed it open and threw papers at the cop.

I'm sure your conversation and night would be a little different than mine was! 

I had perhaps 10 minutes of my night wasted on the side of the road, but had a nice conversation.


If I and the cop, or you and the cop, have a difference of opinion, the time to sort that out is when the judges and lawyers and prosecutors are working on it.

In that moment, when people are hostile, argumentative, pulled over for a reason (like swerving twice down the highway...) making fast actions with hidden hands..... That is not the time for the citizen (with rights) to get all high and mighty and emotional.

Anyhow, I understand we will see this differently, I'm not trying to change the world here. But I put my vote on the cops side, and thank them for their service when I can. I certainly support them trying to keep order in a chaotic world.

Paul


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> When I was a much younger man I did a little bounty hunting, never hurt anybody. Certainly never ambushed anyone riddling them with machine guns.


Little being key word and how many were wanted for murder . Not putting you down any but I got a funny feeling those you went after should the need arose you would have :cowboy:

Why didn't some the goodie folks talk Pablo Escobar into surrendering ,he might even be alive today :cowboy:


----------



## where I want to

Goodness Gracious. Are we having an outbreak of reasonableness????? Shocking, simply shocking.......


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Irish Pixie said:


> Oh, so you were being factitious. I believe that all US citizens have rights via the Constitution so you are ridiculing me? Why don't you feel that all Americans should be granted their rights?
> 
> You never did answer my question, "When are the unborn charged with any crime? Why would they have the right of presumption of innocence under our justice system?
> 
> Why didn't Bonnie (who never killed) and Clyde get a trial like every other "criminal" in the US? Why do you think it's AOK that their rights were violated and they were murdered? Can you explain please?"
> 
> Can you now?


Not being factitious at all . All you got to do is bird dog em for the FBI and you get a hundred grand . Now if you don't want them put in danger just take them in yourself . See easy .

B&C had had more than one shootout with the cops if they would surrendered at any time they might of lived to old age .

From Bonnie and Clyde Bio . 
On the run constantly, Bonnie and Clyde could never rest easily; there was always a chance that someone would become aware of their presence, notify the police, and create the opportunity for bloodshed. This happened over and over through their short and violent careerâviolent because, once cornered, Clyde would kill anyone in order to avoid capture and a return to prison. Fourteen lawmen died along the way.

There are more these kinds out there go get them :cowboy:


----------



## arabian knight

Irish Pixie said:


> I see. You are baiting/trolling. That's not nice.


 You better go look in the mirror


----------



## Irish Pixie

Sawmill Jim said:


> Not being factitious at all . All you got to do is bird dog em for the FBI and you get a hundred grand . Now if you don't want them put in danger just take them in yourself . See easy .
> 
> B&C had had more than one shootout with the cops if they would surrendered at any time they might of lived to old age .
> 
> From Bonnie and Clyde Bio .
> On the run constantly, Bonnie and Clyde could never rest easily; there was always a chance that someone would become aware of their presence, notify the police, and create the opportunity for bloodshed. This happened over and over through their short and violent career&#8212;violent because, once cornered, Clyde would kill anyone in order to avoid capture and a return to prison. Fourteen lawmen died along the way.
> 
> There are more these kinds out there go get them :cowboy:


So for some insane reason you think that I should hunt down criminals and then notify the FBI? Why would you even think of something like that? Why would you include _me_ in this delusion? This is just bizarre. No, beyond bizarre. Please stop including me in your fantasy.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Irish Pixie said:


> So for some insane reason you think that I should hunt down criminals and then notify the FBI? Why would you even think of something like that? Why would you include _me_ in this delusion? This is just bizarre. No, beyond bizarre.


#1 You have computer skills .Evident proof of that 
#2 You have the time. Evident proof of that 
#3 You want the murderers and thieves to get a fair trial Evident proof of that 
All you need is contacts for information .Everyone has to be somewhere . Someone knows where they are .
Go get em :cowboy:


----------



## Irish Pixie

Sawmill Jim said:


> #1 You have computer skills .Evident proof of that
> #2 You have the time. Evident proof of that
> #3 You want the murderers and thieves to get a fair trial Evident proof of that
> All you need is contacts for information .Everyone has to be somewhere . Someone knows where they are .
> Go get em :cowboy:


Please leave me out of your delusional fantasies. It alarms me that you've thought all of this out with me in the center.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Irish Pixie said:


> Please leave me out of your delusional fantasies. It alarms me that you've thought all of this out with me in the center.


As usual everyone always wants someone else to put their life on the line for the safety of the masses ,then complain about the results or method they use. Many are alarmed when confronted with a call to action instead of sitting around in a safe place ,squawking about a known killer not getting a trial.:hysterical:


----------



## Nevada

Sawmill Jim said:


> You want the murderers and thieves to get a fair trial


Is that a problem?


----------



## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> Little being key word and how many were wanted for murder . Not putting you down any but I got a funny feeling those you went after should the need arose you would have :cowboy:
> 
> Why didn't some the goodie folks talk Pablo Escobar into surrendering ,he might even be alive today :cowboy:


Suspected of murder? Only one. Never went after anyone that had been convicted of anything.... I was dealing with a bondsman, not the fbi. When a suspect is released on bond and fails to appear bondsmen will pay to have them returned at which time they go to trial where guilt innocence is determined.


----------



## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> As usual everyone always wants someone else to put their life on the line for the safety of the masses ,then complain about the results or method they use. Many are alarmed when confronted with a call to action instead of sitting around in a safe place ,squawking about a known killer not getting a trial.:hysterical:


Known killer? How was that proven in Clyde barrows case? Person of interest, ok, suspect, ok, known killer? Maybe


----------



## Patchouli

rambler said:


> There is probably a regional thing as well. In my neck of the woods, the police, the highway patrol, the county deputies, chit chat with folks, help people, etc.
> 
> I g pulled over last fall, my back was sore from combining and I weave do to the rumble strips as I drove down the highway, was adjusting my back when there was no oncoming traffic and moved the steering wheel a bit. The deputy said I made a wide turn earlier as well - I never even though about that, I was pulling wagons all day long and -have- to make wide turns, just was natural by then... We had a nice chat about farming, and a little about police work and how in glad he's out doing his job and watching for trouble makers. When he walked up to me I had my billfold in my hand, my hands were up near the top of the steering wheel. When he asked for proof of insurance I said I have to get the new one out of the glove box, my old card just expired ok?
> 
> Now, I could be all concerened about my rights (like you sound to me in a case like this...) and be cussing him up and down for wasting my time pulling me over as I rolled the window down, and have my right hand hidden from him as I scream at him for violating my rights...... I coulda linged over to the glove box and slammed it open and threw papers at the cop.
> 
> I'm sure your conversation and night would be a little different than mine was!
> 
> I had perhaps 10 minutes of my night wasted on the side of the road, but had a nice conversation.
> 
> 
> If I and the cop, or you and the cop, have a difference of opinion, the time to sort that out is when the judges and lawyers and prosecutors are working on it.
> 
> In that moment, when people are hostile, argumentative, pulled over for a reason (like swerving twice down the highway...) making fast actions with hidden hands..... That is not the time for the citizen (with rights) to get all high and mighty and emotional.
> 
> Anyhow, I understand we will see this differently, I'm not trying to change the world here. But I put my vote on the cops side, and thank them for their service when I can. I certainly support them trying to keep order in a chaotic world.
> 
> Paul


My conversation with my local police would have gone exactly like yours did. If they have a valid concern then they should pull me over. If they are polite then I am polite. 

What I think you are missing here is that the reason we have groups like BLM is because those pullovers are not for valid reasons and those conversations aren't happy little chitchats. 

So let's try a little different scenario. Let's say I am driving in Little Rock and police car runs right up on my bumper on the main highway through town. I look up and see him coming and get out of his way as fast as possible. I forget to use my turn light. 

He pulls me over. I ask him why I got pulled over and he says because I didn't use a turn signal. I politely explain why (keep in mind he flew up on my tail for obviously no reason at all if he has time to pull me over and give me a ticket). He gets all snippy. Tells me to put out my cigarette. Well at that point I am going to get a little snippy myself. Because you know what? He has been in the wrong from the get go here. He doesn't get to speed just because he feels like it. He doesn't get to treat me like crap because he is having a bad day. He doesn't get to drag me out of my car over a flipping cigarette. 

At this point I am probably going to remind him I am well enough off to sue the pants off him and I have friends in the media who will eat this all up with a spoon. Oh and is that a camera in his car? All the better. 

And you know what is the saddest thing of all? As a well off white woman not only will I most likely get let go with a warning to use my turn signal next time and I will probably get an apology for his behavior. I won't get dragged off to jail and I won't mysteriously die three days later. 

Sandra Bland sadly did have that exact scenario happen to her and she was hauled off to jail and she did die mysteriously 3 days later. Only difference between me and her was she was black.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Patchouli said:


> My conversation with my local police would have gone exactly like yours did. If they have a valid concern then they should pull me over. If they are polite then I am polite.
> 
> What I think you are missing here is that the reason we have groups like BLM is because those pullovers are not for valid reasons and those conversations aren't happy little chitchats.
> 
> So let's try a little different scenario. Let's say I am driving in Little Rock and police car runs right up on my bumper on the main highway through town. I look up and see him coming and get out of his way as fast as possible. I forget to use my turn light.
> 
> He pulls me over. I ask him why I got pulled over and he says because I didn't use a turn signal. I politely explain why (keep in mind he flew up on my tail for obviously no reason at all if he has time to pull me over and give me a ticket). He gets all snippy. Tells me to put out my cigarette. Well at that point I am going to get a little snippy myself. Because you know what? He has been in the wrong from the get go here. He doesn't get to speed just because he feels like it. He doesn't get to treat me like crap because he is having a bad day. He doesn't get to drag me out of my car over a flipping cigarette.
> 
> At this point I am probably going to remind him I am well enough off to sue the pants off him and I have friends in the media who will eat this all up with a spoon. Oh and is that a camera in his car? All the better.
> 
> And you know what is the saddest thing of all? As a well off white woman not only will I most likely get let go with a warning to use my turn signal next time and I will probably get an apology for his behavior. I won't get dragged off to jail and I won't mysteriously die three days later.
> 
> Sandra Bland sadly did have that exact scenario happen to her and she was hauled off to jail and she did die mysteriously 3 days later. Only difference between me and her was she was black.


Thank you for expressing what I feel in a much better way than I could.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Known killer? How was that proven in Clyde barrows case? Person of interest, ok, suspect, ok, known killer? Maybe


Out of 13 confirmed cop kills and no one saw who it was give me a break :hysterical:ound: A few kidnapping chrarges ,banks and local stores robbed :stars:


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Nevada said:


> Is that a problem?


Problem being you left off part of the statement which happens a lot on these boards .I have yet to see a liberal not twist things to their liking .:hysterical:


----------



## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> Out of 13 confirmed cop kills and no one saw who it was give me a break :hysterical:ound: A few kidnapping chrarges ,banks and local stores robbed :stars:


Call it what you want.... No trial, no evidence presented to a jury, no judge.... Just a very bloody ambush... Sounds like a cop with an agenda to me. Or an ego trip.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Call it what you want.... No trial, no evidence presented to a jury, no judge.... Just a very bloody ambush... Sounds like a cop with an agenda to me. Or an ego trip.


Ever hear of Wanted Dead or Alive ?
Must took them all day that one guy with a single shot gun . From their bio 
Approximately 150 rounds later, Bonnie and Clyde lay dead in their car, which was pockmarked with holes like a piece of grey Swiss cheese.

http://www.crimecollection.com/v/Bonnie+and+Clyde/BAC+_3_.JPG.html


----------



## Irish Pixie

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Call it what you want.... No trial, no evidence presented to a jury, no judge.... Just a very bloody ambush... Sounds like a cop with an agenda to me. Or an ego trip.


It doesn't matter to some that they were murdered rather than tried for their crimes. I don't understand the mentality- they were human beings and Americans.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Call it what you want.... No trial, no evidence presented to a jury, no judge.... Just a very bloody ambush... Sounds like a cop with an agenda to me. Or an ego trip.


Maybe you and Pixie should team up and go find El Chaop before someone mistreats him too .Rumors are he is a nice guy too,just misunderstood . 

'El Chapo'? Mexico offers $3.8 million reward


----------



## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> Ever hear of Wanted Dead or Alive ?
> Must took them all day that one guy with a single shot gun . From their bio
> Approximately 150 rounds later, Bonnie and Clyde lay dead in their car, which was pockmarked with holes like a piece of grey Swiss cheese.
> 
> http://www.crimecollection.com/v/Bonnie+and+Clyde/BAC+_3_.JPG.html


Ever heard of the bill of rights? I am fairly certain most of us are aware that our government is not above breaking the law, such as issuing dead or alive bounties to aid in the capture of suspects. some of us don't like it. Call us dinosaurs but we still believe everyone deserves a fair trial prior to the execution.


----------



## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> Maybe you and Pixie should team up and go find El Chaop before someone mistreats him too .Rumors are he is a nice guy too,just misunderstood .
> 
> 'El Chapo'? Mexico offers $3.8 million reward


i really don't know too much about mexico law, it may be legal down there to execute people without due process. As far as me going anywhere to catch anyone... I do well to walk to the bathroom these days. My bounty hunting days are pretty much behind me.


----------



## Cornhusker

Patchouli said:


> My conversation with my local police would have gone exactly like yours did. If they have a valid concern then they should pull me over. If they are polite then I am polite.
> 
> What I think you are missing here is that the reason we have groups like BLM is because those pullovers are not for valid reasons and those conversations aren't happy little chitchats.
> 
> So let's try a little different scenario. Let's say I am driving in Little Rock and police car runs right up on my bumper on the main highway through town. I look up and see him coming and get out of his way as fast as possible. I forget to use my turn light.
> 
> He pulls me over. I ask him why I got pulled over and he says because I didn't use a turn signal. I politely explain why (keep in mind he flew up on my tail for obviously no reason at all if he has time to pull me over and give me a ticket). He gets all snippy. Tells me to put out my cigarette. Well at that point I am going to get a little snippy myself. Because you know what? He has been in the wrong from the get go here. He doesn't get to speed just because he feels like it. He doesn't get to treat me like crap because he is having a bad day. He doesn't get to drag me out of my car over a flipping cigarette.
> 
> At this point I am probably going to remind him I am well enough off to sue the pants off him and I have friends in the media who will eat this all up with a spoon. Oh and is that a camera in his car? All the better.
> 
> And you know what is the saddest thing of all? As a well off white woman not only will I most likely get let go with a warning to use my turn signal next time and I will probably get an apology for his behavior. I won't get dragged off to jail and I won't mysteriously die three days later.
> 
> Sandra Bland sadly did have that exact scenario happen to her and she was hauled off to jail and she did die mysteriously 3 days later. Only difference between me and her was she was black.


You?
Snippy?
I find that hard to believe :hysterical:
By the way, Bland committed suicide, she wasn't murdered


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ever heard of the bill of rights? I am fairly certain most of us are aware that our government is not above breaking the law, such as issuing dead or alive bounties to aid in the capture of suspects. some of us don't like it. Call us dinosaurs but we still believe everyone deserves a fair trial prior to the execution.


What about a robber that is shot at the scene ? Was he really robbing that Liquor store ? Does a person taking out a unauthorized loan deserve the death penalty without a trial ?

Some things have more to do with good sense than being a dinosaur ,after 13 known cop kills one would be insane to try to be number 14 .Some folks it is just safer to shoot them first, you want a trial then try the ones that did the shooting . Ones luck would be better with a jury than Clyde Barrow I bet :hysterical:


----------



## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> What about a robber that is shot at the scene ? Was he really robbing that Liquor store ? Does a person taking out a unauthorized loan deserve the death penalty without a trial ?
> 
> Some things have more to do with good sense than being a dinosaur ,after 13 known cop kills one would be insane to try to be number 14 .Some folks it is just safer to shoot them first, you want a trial then try the ones that did the shooting . Ones luck would be better with a jury than Clyde Barrow I bet :hysterical:


Just curious,, did the cops that slaughtered them ever go to trial?

As to a robber shot at the scene,,,, if he is armed and posing a threat then you a looking at a whole other thing than ambushing someone. Self defense and like that.


----------



## where I want to

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-sandra-bland-trooper-encinia-20150810-story.html



Patchouli said:


> My conversation with my local police would have gone exactly like yours did. If they have a valid concern then they should pull me over. If they are polite then I am polite.
> 
> What I think you are missing here is that the reason we have groups like BLM is because those pullovers are not for valid reasons and those conversations aren't happy little chitchats.
> 
> So let's try a little different scenario. Let's say I am driving in Little Rock and police car runs right up on my bumper on the main highway through town. I look up and see him coming and get out of his way as fast as possible. I forget to use my turn light.
> 
> He pulls me over. I ask him why I got pulled over and he says because I didn't use a turn signal. I politely explain why (keep in mind he flew up on my tail for obviously no reason at all if he has time to pull me over and give me a ticket). He gets all snippy. Tells me to put out my cigarette. Well at that point I am going to get a little snippy myself. Because you know what? He has been in the wrong from the get go here. He doesn't get to speed just because he feels like it. He doesn't get to treat me like crap because he is having a bad day. He doesn't get to drag me out of my car over a flipping cigarette.
> 
> At this point I am probably going to remind him I am well enough off to sue the pants off him and I have friends in the media who will eat this all up with a spoon. Oh and is that a camera in his car? All the better.
> 
> And you know what is the saddest thing of all? As a well off white woman not only will I most likely get let go with a warning to use my turn signal next time and I will probably get an apology for his behavior. I won't get dragged off to jail and I won't mysteriously die three days later.
> 
> Sandra Bland sadly did have that exact scenario happen to her and she was hauled off to jail and she did die mysteriously 3 days later. Only difference between me and her was she was black.


Such a lot of pre judgements there. Seems like you decide how fast he gets to go, then tell him how he's caused your error. How did he get snippy? That's real inexcusable police brutality right there. And then you decide to tell him off, threaten him with your media friends. 
If you really behave like that, the wonder is not that the police treated you badly. The wonder is that your serial bad judgement has let you escape problems until now. 
I do not know if Bland was treated improperly. But I know that if she was just like you as you say, it's no wonder she got into the trouble she was looking for. 

BTW the record of citations by this police officers shows that you would have stood a better chance of getting stopped had you been white. And a much higher chance had you been male. But that is not a good rabble rousing cry.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Just curious,, did the cops that slaughtered them ever go to trial?
> 
> As to a robber shot at the scene,,,, if he is armed and posing a threat then you a looking at a whole other thing than ambushing someone. Self defense and like that.


From the Bio 
Public opinion turned against Bonnie and Clyde after reports of the murder of two motorcycle cops on Easter Sunday, 1934. Sleeping late in their car near Grapevine, Texas, Bonnie, Clyde, and Henry Methvin were taken by surprise by the policemen, who suspected a car of drunks. Clydeâs injunction to Henry to kidnap the cops, âLetâs take them,â was misinterpreted as encouragement to fire, and Henry blew away patrolman E.B. Wheeler. The situation beyond saving, Clyde fired on the other cop, a rookie named H.D. Murphy, whose first day it was on the job. Murphy was about to get married, and his fiancÃ©e wore her wedding gown to the funeral. The public, who had often cheered the brash and brazen outlaws, now wanted to see them caughtâalive or dead.

http://www.biography.com/news/bonnie-and-clyde-9-facts-lifetime-movie-video


----------



## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> From the Bio
> Public opinion turned against Bonnie and Clyde after reports of the murder of two motorcycle cops on Easter Sunday, 1934. Sleeping late in their car near Grapevine, Texas, Bonnie, Clyde, and Henry Methvin were taken by surprise by the policemen, who suspected a car of drunks. Clydeâs injunction to Henry to kidnap the cops, âLetâs take them,â was misinterpreted as encouragement to fire, and Henry blew away patrolman E.B. Wheeler. The situation beyond saving, Clyde fired on the other cop, a rookie named H.D. Murphy, whose first day it was on the job. Murphy was about to get married, and his fiancÃ©e wore her wedding gown to the funeral. The public, who had often cheered the brash and brazen outlaws, now wanted to see them caughtâalive or dead.
> 
> http://www.biography.com/news/bonnie-and-clyde-9-facts-lifetime-movie-video


Thanks... Interesting read.


----------



## MO_cows

Patchouli said:


> My conversation with my local police would have gone exactly like yours did. If they have a valid concern then they should pull me over. If they are polite then I am polite.
> 
> What I think you are missing here is that the reason we have groups like BLM is because those pullovers are not for valid reasons and those conversations aren't happy little chitchats.
> 
> So let's try a little different scenario. Let's say I am driving in Little Rock and police car runs right up on my bumper on the main highway through town. I look up and see him coming and get out of his way as fast as possible. I forget to use my turn light.
> 
> He pulls me over. I ask him why I got pulled over and he says because I didn't use a turn signal. I politely explain why (keep in mind he flew up on my tail for obviously no reason at all if he has time to pull me over and give me a ticket). He gets all snippy. Tells me to put out my cigarette. Well at that point I am going to get a little snippy myself. Because you know what? He has been in the wrong from the get go here. He doesn't get to speed just because he feels like it. He doesn't get to treat me like crap because he is having a bad day. He doesn't get to drag me out of my car over a flipping cigarette.
> 
> At this point I am probably going to remind him I am well enough off to sue the pants off him and I have friends in the media who will eat this all up with a spoon. Oh and is that a camera in his car? All the better.
> 
> And you know what is the saddest thing of all? As a well off white woman not only will I most likely get let go with a warning to use my turn signal next time and I will probably get an apology for his behavior. I won't get dragged off to jail and I won't mysteriously die three days later.
> 
> Sandra Bland sadly did have that exact scenario happen to her and she was hauled off to jail and she did die mysteriously 3 days later. Only difference between me and her was she was black.


Well that's quite a little fantasy you concocted there, but it doesn't fit the Bland case. She didn't fail to use her blinker, it was burned out. And I have seen the video of her yelling at the police officer. Now I do wish he had taken a few deep breaths instead of escalating along with her, he was more of a hardnose than I would wish, but keep in mind he's a cop - not a mental health counselor. He is trained to keep control of a situation. And as upset as she acted, she wouldn't have been a safe driver to just send her on her way. It just isn't as simple as "racist cop" no matter how much you seem to want it to be.


----------



## Evons hubby

I noticed according to the bio that Bonnie was armed with half a sandwich and no mention of any weapons in the "death car" other than Clydes saxophone.


----------



## Cornhusker

MO_cows said:


> Well that's quite a little fantasy you concocted there, but it doesn't fit the Bland case. She didn't fail to use her blinker, it was burned out. And I have seen the video of her yelling at the police officer. Now I do wish he had taken a few deep breaths instead of escalating along with her, he was more of a hardnose than I would wish, but keep in mind he's a cop - not a mental health counselor. He is trained to keep control of a situation. And as upset as she acted, she wouldn't have been a safe driver to just send her on her way. It just isn't as simple as "racist cop" no matter how much you seem to want it to be.


Cop haters really like to play the race card....unless it's BLM encouraging the murder of cops, then they can't seem to find any racism there


----------



## Cornhusker

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I noticed according to the bio that Bonnie was armed with half a sandwich and no mention of any weapons in the "death car" other than Clydes saxophone.


Apparently they each had a handgun on their person
http://www.history.com/news/guns-found-on-outlaws-bonnie-and-clyde-for-sale


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I noticed according to the bio that Bonnie was armed with half a sandwich and no mention of any weapons in the "death car" other than Clydes saxophone.


I would think somethings were just understood without a need to mention such a thing . I think it would been more likely mentioned if they didn't have plenty of guns on hand . 

Kind of like beating on your door at midnight and not expecting to see part of your gun collection . Now some these posters her yea take em the rest of the night to hunt locked gun shells in the out house ect . But just a wild guess ONE of your guns is within reach . Tell me it an't :hysterical:


----------



## Evons hubby

Sawmill Jim said:


> I would think somethings were just understood without a need to mention such a thing . I think it would been more likely mentioned if they didn't have plenty of guns on hand .
> 
> Kind of like beating on your door at midnight and not expecting to see part of your gun collection . Now some these posters her yea take em the rest of the night to hunt locked gun shells in the out house ect . But just a wild guess ONE of your guns is within reach . *Tell me it an't *:hysterical:


I ain't one to lie. I am too old and decrepit to wrestle with anyone, not a shotgun but my S/W 357 is right here beside me.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I ain't one to lie. Not a shotgun but my S/W 357 is right here beside me.


Yep like ol Clyde always a gun at hand .Someone found you and no gun I would want a investigation launched :cowboy:

Me I got a 629 Classic S&W 44 mag with custom grips at hand. Got a 12 gauge holds 9 rounds half way to the door eep:


----------



## Irish Pixie

Cornhusker said:


> Cop haters really like to play the race card....unless it's BLM encouraging the murder of cops, then they can't seem to find any racism there


Please point out where anyone has made a statement that they hate cops or anything of the sort. Also, after your study of BLM have you found any type of link between them and the cop shootings? A tangible link, not a "feeling" or you "just know"? If so, can you link it please? If you can't provide proof of your statements they are complete rubbish.


----------



## AmericanStand

Sawmill Jim said:


> Some things have more to do with good sense than being a dinosaur ,after 13 known cop kills one would be insane to try to be number 14 .Some folks it is just safer to shoot them first, you want a trial then try the ones that did the shooting . Ones luck would be better with a jury than Clyde Barrow I bet :hysterical:



No argument that it's a tough job to do right. 
But if you don't have the guts to do the job right get a different job.


----------



## Cornhusker

Irish Pixie said:


> Please point out where anyone has made a statement that they hate cops or anything of the sort. Also, after your study of BLM have you found any type of link between them and the cop shootings? A tangible link, not a "feeling" or you "just know"? If so, can you link it please? If you can't provide proof of your statements they are complete rubbish.


Well, as has been pointed out many, many times, the BLM chants about killing cops, suddenly, there is a rash of cop killings.
You don't have to be a rocket surgeon to see that connection, but cop haters will always deny the link.
If you haven't seen the absolute vile hatred for police coming from right in your own little group, then you are either not paying attention or fibbing.


----------



## AmericanStand

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I noticed according to the bio that Bonnie was armed with half a sandwich and no mention of any weapons in the "death car" other than Clydes saxophone.



Which half ? 
Was it a deadly limburger cheese ?
Was it fresh ? Perhaps it had dried to a deadly rock hard?
What do we know about the sax ? Are you sure it was Clyde's ?
Perhaps it was planted there to look like Clyde's ?
Was he qualified with it ?
In the wrong hands a sax is deadly. 
We should outlay them 
Saxes have a lot of brass in them brass comes from two deadly forms of mining so Clyde was commuting genocide. 
If you don't know all the details you are not qualified to discuss the topic.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Cornhusker said:


> Well, as has been pointed out many, many times, the BLM chants about killing cops, suddenly, there is a rash of cop killings.
> You don't have to be a rocket surgeon to see that connection, but cop haters will always deny the link.
> If you haven't seen the absolute vile hatred for police coming from right in your own little group, then you are either not paying attention or fibbing.


What is my "own little group"? Can you point out anyone that stated they hate cops?

So, again, no evidence just your "feeling" that BLM is linked to the cop killings, right? Pure rubbish. 

Are you calling me a liar? That's not nice. I haven't called you anything. I just want you to stop spreading rubbish as if it were fact.


----------



## AmericanStand

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I noticed according to the bio that Bonnie was armed with half a sandwich and no mention of any weapons in the "death car" other than Clydes saxophone.


Wow
Which half ? 
Was it a deadly limburger cheese ?
Was it fresh ? Perhaps it had dried to a deadly rock hard?
What do we know about the sax ? Are you sure it was Clyde's ?
Perhaps it was planted there to look like Clyde's ?
Was he qualified with it ?
In the wrong hands a sax is deadly. 
We should outlay them 
Saxes have a lot of brass in them brass comes from two deadly forms of mining so Clyde was commuting genocide. 
If you don't know all the details you are not qualified to discuss the topic.


----------



## Cornhusker

Irish Pixie said:


> What is my "own little group"? Can you point out anyone that stated they hate cops?
> 
> So, again, no evidence just your "feeling" that BLM is linked to the cop killings, right? Pure rubbish.
> 
> Are you calling me a liar? That's not nice. I haven't called you anything. I just want you to stop spreading rubbish as if it were fact.


Ok, prove their chants aren't inspiring the shootings
You also know that Obama has picked sides as is evident in his words, actions and inaction
Remember, he sends people to the funerals of the thugs, but not the cops.
He goes on TV and pretends to care about the thugs "If I had a son......"
So don't tell me your thief in chief isn't influencing cop killers.
It was the leftists that stated Palin's rhetoric caused the AZ shooting, even after they found out the shooter was a devout Obama worshiper.
Funny how it works one way and not the left.
And by the way, you know who your gang is, pretending you don't is rubish


----------



## Irish Pixie

Cornhusker said:


> Ok, prove their chants aren't inspiring the shootings
> You also know that Obama has picked sides as is evident in his words, actions and inaction
> Remember, he sends people to the funerals of the thugs, but not the cops.
> He goes on TV and pretends to care about the thugs "If I had a son......"
> So don't tell me your thief in chief isn't influencing cop killers.
> It was the leftists that stated Palin's rhetoric caused the AZ shooting, even after they found out the shooter was a devout Obama worshiper.
> Funny how it works one way and not the left.
> And by the way, you know who your gang is, pretending you don't is rubish


I don't have to prove anything - you said it, not me. 

You do realize when you (collective you) say things like "thief in chief" "Obama worshiper" "Obummer" etc... it makes everything you say less creditable, right? 

I said nothing about Palin being the cause of the AZ shooting. You using a very broad brush again. 

I don't have a gang. There are people that agree with me, and me with them, but that's no more a gang than the people that would "like" dog crap if you put it in a post.


----------



## Cornhusker

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't have to prove anything - you said it, not me.
> 
> You do realize when you (collective you) say things like "thief in chief" "Obama worshiper" "Obummer" etc... it makes everything you say less creditable, right?
> 
> I said nothing about Palin being the cause of the AZ shooting. You using a very broad brush again.
> 
> I don't have a gang. There are people that agree with me, and me with them, but that's no more a gang than the people that would "like" dog crap if you put it in a post.


If you say so Boss


----------



## Irish Pixie

Cornhusker said:


> If you say so Boss


Falling back on that old chestnut, eh?


----------



## watcher

Irish Pixie said:


> Oh, so you were being factitious. I believe that all US citizens have rights via the Constitution so you are ridiculing me? Why don't you feel that all Americans should be granted their rights?
> 
> You never did answer my question, "When are the unborn charged with any crime? Why would they have the right of presumption of innocence under our justice system?
> 
> Why didn't Bonnie (who never killed) and Clyde get a trial like every other "criminal" in the US? Why do you think it's AOK that their rights were violated and they were murdered? Can you explain please?"
> 
> Can you now?


You have two small problems. According to the law they were not murdered and their rights were not violated according to the supreme court rulings at the time. The actions taken by the LEO were legal at the time, the laws and rules for the use of deadly force were quite different then.

Abortion is the reverse, in the past it was illegal and anyone caught doing an abortion would face criminal charges, I don't know if it was listed as murder at the time but it could have been. Today you are free to kill as many children as you wish as long as you have 1) government approval via a medical licenses and 2) a willing accomplice.


----------



## watcher

Patchouli said:


> My conversation with my local police would have gone exactly like yours did. If they have a valid concern then they should pull me over. If they are polite then I am polite.
> 
> What I think you are missing here is that the reason we have groups like BLM is because those pullovers are not for valid reasons and those conversations aren't happy little chitchats.
> 
> So let's try a little different scenario. Let's say I am driving in Little Rock and police car runs right up on my bumper on the main highway through town. I look up and see him coming and get out of his way as fast as possible. I forget to use my turn light.
> 
> He pulls me over. I ask him why I got pulled over and he says because I didn't use a turn signal. I politely explain why (keep in mind he flew up on my tail for obviously no reason at all if he has time to pull me over and give me a ticket). He gets all snippy. Tells me to put out my cigarette. Well at that point I am going to get a little snippy myself. Because you know what? He has been in the wrong from the get go here. He doesn't get to speed just because he feels like it. He doesn't get to treat me like crap because he is having a bad day. He doesn't get to drag me out of my car over a flipping cigarette.
> 
> At this point I am probably going to remind him I am well enough off to sue the pants off him and I have friends in the media who will eat this all up with a spoon. Oh and is that a camera in his car? All the better.
> 
> And you know what is the saddest thing of all? As a well off white woman not only will I most likely get let go with a warning to use my turn signal next time and I will probably get an apology for his behavior. I won't get dragged off to jail and I won't mysteriously die three days later.
> 
> Sandra Bland sadly did have that exact scenario happen to her and she was hauled off to jail and she did die mysteriously 3 days later. Only difference between me and her was she was black.


My dad told me something that you might want to think about; the more you poke a pile of dog poo with a stick the worse it is going to stink.

Arguing with a cop is like arguing with an umpire, you ARE going to lose and its up to you how badly it turns out. You can either be called out (get a ticket) or be ejected from the game (go to jail). Its all up to you at that point. 

Think the cop pulled you over for no reason? Fine, go to court and tell it to the judge, at least then you have a chance of winning. Once you start throwing a hissy fit for the cop things are only going to go down hill for YOU.


----------



## watcher

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Just curious,, did the cops that slaughtered them ever go to trial?
> 
> As to a robber shot at the scene,,,, if he is armed and posing a threat then you a looking at a whole other thing than ambushing someone. Self defense and like that.


As I said the laws on and rules of engagement were different back then. IIRC, at that time it was legal to shoot a fleeing suspect. Therefore according to the law there was no murder and no rights violated. If I really cared I'd check to see what the standards were based on someone known to be heavily armed and dangerous with a history of shooting his way out of police engagments (google bonnie and clyde shoot out Platte City Dexfield Park Sowers)










These are the weapons found in the car. FYI, the two rifles are Browning Automatic Rifles which fired the .30-06 Springfield cartridge (7.62Ã63mm) in either semi-auto mode or in full auto at up to 600 rpm.


----------



## Cornhusker

Irish Pixie said:


> Falling back on that old chestnut, eh?


Talking sense into you isn't working, you will buy whatever the left sells you, so why waste time talking to someone who doesn't want to open their eyes or their mind?


----------



## Irish Pixie

[No message]


----------



## Patchouli

Cornhusker said:


> You?
> Snippy?
> I find that hard to believe :hysterical:
> By the way, Bland committed suicide, she wasn't murdered


Says who? The PD? I am sure they have no conflict of interest there..... There are enough questions about what happened that the book has not been closed on it yet and an investigation is ongoing. 

But thank you for ignoring everything I had to say and just quibbling that one small point.


----------



## Patchouli

> Originally Posted by *Patchouli*
> _My conversation with my local police would have gone exactly like yours did. If they have a valid concern then they should pull me over. If they are polite then I am polite.
> 
> What I think you are missing here is that the reason we have groups like BLM is because those pullovers are not for valid reasons and those conversations aren't happy little chitchats.
> 
> So let's try a little different scenario. Let's say I am driving in Little Rock and police car runs right up on my bumper on the main highway through town. I look up and see him coming and get out of his way as fast as possible. I forget to use my turn light.
> 
> He pulls me over. I ask him why I got pulled over and he says because I didn't use a turn signal. I politely explain why (keep in mind he flew up on my tail for obviously no reason at all if he has time to pull me over and give me a ticket). He gets all snippy. Tells me to put out my cigarette. Well at that point I am going to get a little snippy myself. Because you know what? He has been in the wrong from the get go here. He doesn't get to speed just because he feels like it. He doesn't get to treat me like crap because he is having a bad day. He doesn't get to drag me out of my car over a flipping cigarette.
> 
> At this point I am probably going to remind him I am well enough off to sue the pants off him and I have friends in the media who will eat this all up with a spoon. Oh and is that a camera in his car? All the better.
> 
> And you know what is the saddest thing of all? As a well off white woman not only will I most likely get let go with a warning to use my turn signal next time and I will probably get an apology for his behavior. I won't get dragged off to jail and I won't mysteriously die three days later.
> 
> Sandra Bland sadly did have that exact scenario happen to her and she was hauled off to jail and she did die mysteriously 3 days later. Only difference between me and her was she was black._





MO_cows said:


> Well that's quite a little fantasy you concocted there, but it doesn't fit the Bland case. She didn't fail to use her blinker, it was burned out. And I have seen the video of her yelling at the police officer. Now I do wish he had taken a few deep breaths instead of escalating along with her, he was more of a hardnose than I would wish, but keep in mind he's a cop - not a mental health counselor. He is trained to keep control of a situation. And as upset as she acted, she wouldn't have been a safe driver to just send her on her way. It just isn't as simple as "racist cop" no matter how much you seem to want it to be.


Obviously you watched a very different video than I did. She didn't get upset until he started acting like a jerk. He escalated the situation. All he had to do was hand her the ticket and walk away. 



> State legislators who saw the video of the arrest of the woman, Sandra Bland, just before it was publicly released sharply condemned the officerâs behavior, which the director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, Steven McCraw, *said was a violation of department arrest procedures.*





> The video showed Trooper Encinia standing outside the driverâs door and explaining to Ms. Bland that she was being written up for failing to signal a lane change.
> âYou seem very irritated,â he said.
> âI am, I really am,â she said. She said she had pulled over to get out of his way and was now getting stopped and written up because of it.
> 
> 
> âYou mind putting out your cigarette?â he asked testily.
> âIâm in my own car. I donât have to put out my cigarette,â she said.
> When he ordered her out of the car, she refused.
> âIâm going to yank you out,â Trooper Encinia shouted.
> Before long, Ms. Bland was outside the car shouting insults and obscenities, and the trooper had her in handcuffs.
> In part of the encounter that occurred out of the cameraâs view, a scuffle could be heard, and Ms. Bland indicated that she was on the ground. âYou just slammed me, knocked my head into the ground,â she said.
> Addressing Trooper Encinia with an expletive, she said, âI got epilepsy.â
> Trooper Encinia responded, âGood.â


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/22/us/sandra-bland-was-combative-texas-arrest-report-says.html

So maybe you can point out where exactly my "fantasy" diverged from the reality of the encounter? Because I find that pretty insulting.


----------



## watcher

Patchouli said:


> In one of the threads below Yvonne's Hubby asked me what I thought the real problem was when it comes to the current state of police and citizens in this country. The number one problem in my opinion is that police are killing citizens as a first resort rather than a last one. This campaign aims to end that and I think their ideas are sound. Crime has been on a steady decrease for a long while now. So have police deaths in the line of duty. And yet citizen deaths are on the rise. That has to stop.
> 
> *What is Campaign Zero?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.vox.com/2015/8/21/9188729/police-black-lives-matter-campaign-zero


Call me slow but I just noticed and have to wonder just what do unions have to do with it?


----------



## AmericanStand

I suppose union contracts that protect bad cops would be a problem.


----------



## where I want to

AmericanStand said:


> I suppose union contracts that protect bad cops would be a problem.


When I was a union rep, I routinely negotiated with management over a penalty that I believe was deserved. About equally as often as I thought as those I thought excessive. Just with less passion.
It is the obligation of a union rep to support their members if the member persists. 
But there is a third party involved in all union/management negotiations who is not present. That is everyone who is effected by the result.
In police/management issues, I wonder if there should actually be an independent representative of the public at discipline hearings.


----------

