# COVID deaths inflated? Say it isn't so...



## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

Just going to leave this here...

Minnesota lawmakers say coronavirus deaths could be inflated by 40% after reviewing death certificates

“For 17 years, the CDC document that guides us as physicians to do death certificates has stood, but this year, we were told, through the Department of Health and the CDC, that the rules were changing if COVID-19 was involved.”

“If it’s COVID-19, we’re told now it doesn’t matter if it was actually the diagnosis that caused death. If someone had it, they died of it,” he said.


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## SpentPenny (Jun 11, 2020)

Of course the numbers are inflated!!!! Locally they do not even argue the difference between "died from" and "died with" as though the powers that be do not understand the difference. Daughter is a RN in a large ER and has seen accident victims listed as covid deaths if the virus test turns up positive later. Influenza is down 95% this year... Figure that out.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Here is what @doc- said, and I agree with him. I have posted it multiple times on FB and the fact checkers never call it into question.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"A meme claiming to demonstrate that US death rates have not changed in 2020 by comparing recent data with previous years is misleading.
The image is titled “US deaths per year” and features figures said to be the number of annual deaths since 2015 (here). These are: 2015 (2,712,630), 2016 (2,744,248), 2017 (2,813,503), 2018 (2,839,205), 2019 (2,900,689). For 2020, the image says it has taken data up to Nov. 16 and lists 2,487,350 total deaths. It then makes a whole-year projection of 2,818,527."
*"VERDICT*
Misleading. The data used for 2020 does not account for all the deaths that have actually happened in the year, due to time still yet to be lapsed, the date the counts were launched, and due to a lag in reporting figures. In fact, there have been hundreds of thousands of excess deaths estimated in 2020."









Fact check: Chart does not present accurate US deaths figure for 2020


A meme claiming to demonstrate that US death rates have not changed in 2020 by comparing recent data with previous years is misleading.




www.reuters.com


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## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

In the interest of keeping the thread on track... the article is only referring to the number of deaths _attributed_ to COVID being inflated not the total number of deaths in the US so discussion comparing deaths year to year is a side issue to this particular discussion


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Way to much money to be made due to the current incentives of covid being involved in the deaths and or treatments. With even more money to be still made from covid, the problems are not going to go away any time soon. Inflated numbers will continue.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Hospital Payments and the COVID-19 Death Count - FactCheck.org


Q: Are hospitals inflating the number of COVID-19 cases and deaths so they can be paid more? A: Recent legislation pays hospitals higher Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients and treatment, but there is no evidence of fraudulent reporting. FULL QUESTION Are hospitals getting 13,000 per patient if...




www.factcheck.org





“There’s an implication here that hospitals are over-reporting their COVID patients because they have an economic advantage of doing so, [which] is really an outrageous claim,” Gerald Kominski, senior fellow at the UCLA Center for Health Policy Research, told us. And, he said, any suggestion that patients may be put on ventilators out of financial gain, not medical need, “is basically saying physicians are violating their Hippocratic Oath … it would be like providing heart surgery on someone who doesn’t need it.”

Robert Berenson, an institute fellow at the Urban Institute, said the notion that hospitals are profiting off the pandemic — as some of the social media posts may imply — isn’t borne out by facts, either."


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Minnesota health commissioner criticizes claims of inflated COVID-19 death counts


The Minnesota Department of Health commissioner is pushing back on "misinformation" regarding how COVID-19 deaths are being recorded after two Minnesota state senators alleged the death counts are being inflated.




www.fox9.com





"There’s absolutely no policy or political motivation to increase the number of deaths that are reported, so we just ask people to try to help us clear up this confusion around the guidance and why it is we are looking to assure these death totals are as accurate as they can be," said Malcolm.

Some deaths may be recorded as "suspected" or "probable" COVID-19, she explained. If that happens, the Vitals Records staff connect with the medical certifiers to see if test results returned to confirm COVID-19. Only a medical certifier or medical examiner can make a change on the cause of death statement.

"Correcting a record to ensure accuracy is important to us and it is important to public health and to families, so that’s why we’re doing the extra investigations to try to correct the records where that is possible to do," said Malcolm.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

They are inflated.

These are covid deaths per CDC:
Intentional and unintentional injury, poisoning, and other adverse events


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Of course they are inflated. Members on this forum who are in the health care field know first hand. I have immediate members of my family who have first hand knowledge. Because someone who isn't involved in health care posts a link or two that says otherwise is just proof that there are those out there who seek to push alternative truths.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

This just shows how the lawmakers have no idea what is actually going on or what they are doing.

A death certificate lists "immediate cause of death" but also lists comorbidities that may or may not contribute to the death.
Eg- a guy has a long history of HTN, CAD & DM, but recently developed a fever & cough. On the way to doc's office, he gets his suit pressed by a bus and dies in the street....His DC will read "COD- Trauma/MVA, HTN, CAD, DM and maybe even CoViD...

....For those who count these things, his *one* death will be added to the total for each of those *five * diseases this year.

Painterswife: take the numbers you posted and figure the weekly death rate for all those years, including 2020-- You will see this year is not noticeably different than other years ...We could even make the (statistically unsupportable ) statement that because there are fewer deaths this year than in some other years-- CoViD must be protective!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

doc- said:


> This just shows how the lawmakers have no idea what is actually going on or what they are doing.
> 
> A death certificate lists "immediate cause of death" but also lists comorbidities that may or may not contribute to the death.
> Eg- a guy has a long history of HTN, CAD & DM, but recently developed a fever & cough. On the way to doc's office, he gets his suit pressed by a bus and dies in the street....His DC will read "COD- Trauma/MVA, HTN, CAD, DM and maybe even CoViD...
> ...


I posted in another thread data that proves your statement incorrect.






Scribd







www.scribd.com













Death Data From National Center For Health Statistics | PDF | Epidemiology | Immunology


Data updated as of 12/15/2020. Previous three weeks (at a minimum) are incomplete.




www.scribd.com


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

painterswife said:


> I posted in another thread data that proves your statement incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Since your statements are chronically incorrect, given your radical and dangerous ideology, that would make your statements of incorrectness an affirmation of correctness. It works like a double negative.


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## SpentPenny (Jun 11, 2020)

painterswife said:


> I posted in another thread data that proves your statement incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Look, I do not have a beef with you and you should not have a beef with me simply because we disagree. Being wrong is a choice and you are within your rights to be wrong! 

You do what you wish and I will as well, but never expect me to comply with rules that you support and I do not. I am not, and never have been a rule follower. I will not light myself on fire to keep you warm.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

SpentPenny said:


> Look, I do not have a beef with you and you should not have a beef with me simply because we disagree. Being wrong is a choice and you are within your rights to be wrong!
> 
> You do what you wish and I will as well, but never expect me to comply with rules that you support and I do not. I am not, and never have been a rule follower. I will not light myself on fire to keep you warm.


You do realize that post was to someone else , I hope.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I think we all need to take a break.


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## Nod (Dec 17, 2020)

(yawn)... science deniers...watching as their ship sinks...


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Hecky darn, Nod, were there science deniers when drilling holes in your skull was the accepted treatment for headaches?

or when radon exposure was a spa treatment?

or when smoking tobacco was used as a plague treatment?

We are participants in several medical experiments that folks will debate in a hundred years.


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## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

I'll see how you all fare from an unknown virus vaccine' side effects before I consider getting it...even though I am in the high risk group, and would probably qualify for it soon.

I'm guessing (prematurely) that the death count will go up from vaccine side effects...rather counter productive to my mind !


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Hospital Payments and the COVID-19 Death Count - FactCheck.org
> 
> 
> Q: Are hospitals inflating the number of COVID-19 cases and deaths so they can be paid more? A: Recent legislation pays hospitals higher Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients and treatment, but there is no evidence of fraudulent reporting. FULL QUESTION Are hospitals getting 13,000 per patient if...
> ...


It is not the physicians violating anything. Hospitals are not run by doctors anymore. They are run by pencil pushers. These people are running the numbers up. NOt the doctors. 

You do realize this right? Maybe not or you wouldn't have posted that garbage article.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I work in the hospitals and know what goes on behind the scenes. It is all about money to those involved with that aspect of it. I have seen women come in with female issues and get a CAT scan because they had good insurance and they needed to pay for the new machine they just bought. 

Now, say the guvment says "We will give you an extra 30,000 dollars for a Covid case." and you really think no funny business happens? Get real people. It happens. I am not saying it happens every time but you guys are acting like it never happens at all. 

I say again...... GET REAL. Take the blinders off.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yes, hospitals misclassify. They don't do it in numbers to increase the covid deaths by 40 percent.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Yes, hospitals misclassify. They don't do it in numbers to increase the covid deaths by 40 percent.


I'm going to speculate, based on your related posts, you have little to no physical first hand experience in the health care field, specifically administrative.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> I'm going to speculate, based on your related posts, you have little to no physical first hand experience in the health care field, specifically administrative.


But, she found it on the internet


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I used to see it in the office or family gatherings and wondered why some people choose to be contrarian about matters they know little about. It usually seemed to have little to do with the topic.


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

And then there's this......


> Two Minnesota state lawmakers are calling for an audit of death certificates that were attributed to the coronavirus, saying COVID-19 deaths could have been inflated by 40%.
> State Rep. Mary Franson and state Sen. Scott Jensen released a video last week revealing that after reviewing thousands of death certificates in the state, 40% did not have COVID-19 as the underlying cause of death.


Link to source
Another link


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Study of Almost 10 Million Finds NO ASYMPTOMATIC COVID SPREAD; Media Silent - The New American 
Trust science. Even when you can tell it's junk science. Because we said so. And because it's the only way we can gain enough power to rule over every aspect of your inferior lives.


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

barnbilder said:


> Study of Almost 10 Million Finds NO ASYMPTOMATIC COVID SPREAD; Media Silent - The New American
> Trust science. Even when you can tell it's junk science. Because we said so. And because it's the only way we can gain enough power to rule over every aspect of your inferior lives.


The only problem I have with this is the study was done in Wuhan. I'm not saying it's inherently wrong, I'm just saying that causes credibility issues for me. Wish they'd done the study in Italy or somewhere else. I'd have fewer speed bumps to get over.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

mzgarden said:


> The only problem I have with this is the study was done in Wuhan. I'm not saying it's inherently wrong, I'm just saying that causes credibility issues for me. Wish they'd done the study in Italy or somewhere else. I'd have fewer speed bumps to get over.


Guess you didn't read it all then.


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

@barnbilder - I did read it all, but maybe you saw something I missed? I saw the test was done in Wuhan. I saw the author quote a WHO rep from July saying it was rare, I saw the author thinking it's unlikely. I was hoping for an actual test having been done somewhere else. Can you point out what I missed?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Excess mortality is a measure of how many more deaths have occurred over a period of time as compared to the same period in previous years. During the first 34 weeks of 2020, 280,000 more people died than during the first 34 weeks of any of the five previous years. From March to August 2020, the number of weekly deaths was consistently higher compared to the weekly deaths of any of the previous five years. The 280,000 excess deaths that occurred in 2020 thus far are likely due to the COVID-19 pandemic.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"But the comparison is flawed for a few reasons. The 2020 statistics cited are not the final figures, and the Centers of Disease Control and Prevention has estimated that hundreds of thousands of excess American deaths are attributed to the virus this year. Lastly, it ignores that COVID-19 has killed over 290,000 Americans to-date, the highest virus death toll in the world. 

The post was flagged as part of Facebook’s efforts to combat false news and misinformation on its News Feed. (Read more about our partnership with Facebook.) 

The numbers listed from 2015 through 2018 are legitimate and come from the CDC. The health agency reported 2,712,630 deaths in the U.S. in 2015, 2,744,248 in 2016, 2,813,503 in 2017, and 2,839,205 in 2018.

While the final numbers for 2019 have not been released, the CDC’s provisional count for the year — 2,855,000 — comes close to the chart’s 2,900,689 figure, though it’s not clear how they reached the number.

The chart’s 2,487,350 figure leading up to the week of Nov. 16, 2020, reflects CDC data, but it’s not a complete depiction of how many Americans died in 2020. 

Not only does the figure not account for the final six weeks of the year, it doesn’t represent the first few weeks, either. The weekly provisional deaths table doesn’t begin until the week ending Feb. 1, 2020. What’s more, these numbers are continuously updated due to reporting lags, which the CDC says can range from one week to eight weeks or more, depending on the jurisdiction and cause of death. "









PolitiFact - Chart comparing 2020 US death toll with previous years is flawed, uses incomplete data


Posts on social media are attempting to downplay the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic using a chart that shows that the 2




www.politifact.com


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

With increases in suicide, overdose, violence, neglect all caused by draconian measures used to combat a run of the mill respiratory virus, it is not surprising that we have more deaths. With the whole baby boomer phenomenon, it would not be surpising to have rising death rates without a virus as a scapegoat though. On the other hand, medical advancements like flu vaccines, dialisis, heart surgery, etc., we are primed and ready for nature to cull excess population that is living beyond their natural lifespan. Any attempt to corelate yearly death numbers with actual lethality of a disease is pure extrapolation.


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## justascout1 (Jun 4, 2019)

painterswife said:


> "But the comparison is flawed for a few reasons. The 2020 statistics cited are not the final figures, and the Centers of Disease Control and Prevention has estimated that hundreds of thousands of excess American deaths are attributed to the virus this year. Lastly, it ignores that COVID-19 has killed over 290,000 Americans to-date, the highest virus death toll in the world.
> 
> The post was flagged as part of Facebook’s efforts to combat false news and misinformation on its News Feed. (Read more about our partnership with Facebook.)
> 
> ...


Using “information” from Facebook and Politifact, both proven to have extremely biased views is like saying peanut butter is sweet because it doesn’t have chicken bones. Your argument has no merit.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Yes, hospitals misclassify. They don't do it in numbers to increase the covid deaths by 40 percent.


I have no idea what numbers they "do it in" but 40% would not surprise me in the least. 

I had said this before but maybe you didn't catch it. At the end of the year hospitals spend like the devil to 'spend out' their budget. Often I get called to do a construction job "real quick" to tally them out for the year. This year for some strange reason, they are flush with money they have never had before. Like 10-20 times the money that is normal. So instead of me and my crews painting, tearing out walls and such, there are cranes flying new chillers and boilers. New roofs going up. 

This is not a one off and that money had to come from somewhere. It doesnt take a genius to figure it out. I personally know of 6 nearby hospitals that are this way because they called us first and told us about their good fortune.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

justascout1 said:


> Using “information” from Facebook and Politifact, both proven to have extremely biased views is like saying peanut butter is sweet because it doesn’t have chicken bones. Your argument has no merit.


Well the article links direct to the CDC numbers. If a meme uses them, then the presenting the actual CDC numbers to show how false the meme numbers are is appropriate.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Well the article links direct to the CDC numbers. If a meme uses them, then the presenting the actual CDC numbers to show how false the meme numbers are is appropriate.


Sadly, many rational folks don't trust the CDC numbers or a lot they put out these days. Trust in many alphabet agencies is non-existent for many people that have recollection of the past few years.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Hiro said:


> Sadly, many rational folks don't trust the CDC numbers or a lot they put out these days. Trust in many alphabet agencies is non-existent for many people that have recollection of the past few years.


Really makes no difference if they trust them or not. It would be illogical to trust a meme about Covid numbers when the real Covid numbers are there for all to see.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Really makes no difference if they trust them or not. It would be illogical to trust a meme about Covid numbers when the real Covid numbers are there for all to see.


You either missed my point or are ignoring it. My point was many rational people don't trust either a meme or numbers published by the government and have to rely on what they can see and verify from their own experiences and senses. That is not how it should be, but it is how it has to be when you realize you are being lied to from institutions that should not lie to you in a free republic. Welcome to the Brave New World.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Hiro said:


> You either missed my point or are ignoring it. My point was many rational people don't trust either a meme or numbers published by the government and have to rely on what they can see and verify from their own experiences and senses. That is not how it should be, but it is how it has to be when you realize you are being lied to from institutions that should not lie to you in a free republic. Welcome to the Brave New World.


Yet you did not say you didn't trust the meme. I can only respond to what you post.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Yet you did not say you didn't trust the meme. I can only respond to what you post.





Hiro said:


> Sadly, many rational folks don't trust the CDC numbers or a lot they put out these days. Trust in many alphabet agencies is non-existent for many people that have recollection of the past few years.


That is the post that I made that you were responding to. Is this an Abbot & Costello routine?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

There are no real Covid numbers.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Fauci doesn't do much to build trust.

The National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases director told The New York Times in an interview published Thursday that between 70% and 90% of the U.S. population would need to get inoculated (or vaccinated) against COVID-19 in order for the country to reach herd immunity. 

Fauci indicated that he based his shifting statements on public polling on the popularity of coronavirus vaccines.

"When polls said only about half of all Americans would take a vaccine, I was saying herd immunity would take 70 to 75 percent," Fauci said. "Then, when newer surveys said 60 percent or more would take it, I thought, 'I can nudge this up a bit,' so I went to 80, 85."

*CORONAVIRUS HERD IMMUNITY NOT LIKELY UNTIL END OF NEXT YEAR, WHO SAYS*

He continued: "We really don’t know what the real number is. I think the real range is somewhere between 70 to 90 percent. But, I’m not going to say 90 percent."









Fauci shifts herd immunity goalposts, now says as much as 90% may be needed to halt coronavirus


Top White House coronavirus adviser Dr. Anthony Fauci has appeared to shift his stance on what percentage of the U.S. population needs to get a COVID-19 vaccine in order for the country to reach herd immunity.




www.foxnews.com


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

The CDC has been a crackpot agency for decades, and the WHO is led by a former terrorist. I have more faith in Chinese sources.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

If the CDC was brought in by the police for questioning regarding a murder, the inconsistencies in their story would rank them somewhere between a person of interest and the prime suspect.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I'm going to go back to my original question about immunity from covid as a result of having had covid.

So, if we vaccinate people who have already had covid, aren't we just wasting vaccines? If we vaccinate only those who have not had covid wouldn't we reach herd immunity just that much sooner?

If having covid does not make you immune to covid, then why do the "experts" think a vaccine will make you immune to covid?


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

There are no accurate COVID death numbers!
In the US, there is no uniform method *used* for counting COVID deaths. Reporting is driven by politics and financial gain.

The same thing applies worldwide.









Unravelling the true death toll of COVID-19 | Swiss Re


How deadly is it? This has been the burning question since the earliest days of the COVID-19 outbreak.




www.swissre.com





*Chapter Navigation*

Chapter 1Section 1: How accurate are the death counts for COVID-19?
Chapter 2Section 2: Who is at greater risk?
Chapter 3Section 3: What are the excess deaths attributable to the virus?
Chapter 4Section 4: What should life insurers watch for?
Chapter 5Conclusion
*How deadly is it?*
This has been the burning question since the earliest days of the COVID-19 outbreak. As more credible data is collected, epidemiologists, actuaries and modelers continue to analyse the virus and unravel the true death rate.
Beyond the emotional toll of each life lost, the collective number of COVID-19-related deaths is important for many reasons. The mortality rate influences vital decisions around public health policy and interventions. The economic fallout of mobility, trade and other restrictions affects both life and non-life insurers. Life insurers are more directly impacted by the death toll, by a change in the level of claims and changes that may be required for underwriting and pricing practices.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

painterswife said:


> "But the comparison is flawed for a few reasons. The 2020 statistics cited are not the final figures, and the Centers of Disease Control and Prevention has estimated that hundreds of thousands of excess American deaths are attributed to the virus this year. Lastly, it ignores that COVID-19 has killed over 290,000 Americans to-date, the highest virus death toll in the world.
> 
> The post was flagged as part of Facebook’s efforts to combat false news and misinformation on its News Feed. (Read more about our partnership with Facebook.)
> 
> ...


You can't have it both ways---
2019 deaths 2900000

2020 deaths over 46 weeks 2855000 will project to 3200000 over 52 weeks--> that's 290,000 more this CoViD year than last non-CoVid year.

But we expect 50,000 more deaths each year anyway, so, there looks like there will be ~ 240,000 "Excess deaths" due to CoVid this year.

But the CoViD death tally is already at 330,000 with another month still to go.

So, take your choice. If the CoViD deaths are over reported by 40%, then the Excess Death count is 40% too high also....Which part of the argument do you prefer to lose? You can't win them both.


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## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

no really said:


> Fauci indicated that he based his shifting statements on public polling on the popularity of coronavirus vaccines.
> 
> "When polls said only about half of all Americans would take a vaccine, I was saying herd immunity would take 70 to 75 percent," Fauci said. "Then, *when newer surveys said 60 percent or more would take it, I thought, 'I can nudge this up a bit,' so I went to 80, 85."*
> 
> ...


Yep, proof positive Fauci uses "science"... 

Seriously though, that is not how this is supposed to work! Our "top"  epidemiologist in essence wets his finger sticks it up in the air and makes a pronouncement based upon which way the wind is blowing????



barnbilder said:


> The CDC has been a crackpot agency for decades, and the WHO is led by a former terrorist. I have more faith in Chinese sources.


Me too, which means my trust level on a scale of 1-10 is somewhere down around .05


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

The formula for determining the required per cent of herd immunity (HI) is is HI = 1- (i/Ro) where Ro is the number of people each infected guy spreads the bug to...To get an accurate result, we need to know Ro--

Right now it looks like Ro is ~ 2.5, but that's probably way too high because we don;t even know how many people actually have had the infection (asymptomatic and haven't had a test). 

If Ro =2.5, then HI is 60%...If Ro is 1.25, the HI is only 20%.

At any rate, the only thing we know for sure is that Fauci is completely ignorant of the math of epidemics.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

doc- said:


> You can't have it both ways---
> 2019 deaths 2900000
> 
> *2020 deaths over 46 weeks 2855000 will project to 3200000 over 52 weeks--> that's 290,000 more this CoViD year than last non-CoVid year.*
> ...


Is that your math? Or someone else's? The math is off.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1343389089589059584


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

She can't even get the years right.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> She can't even get the years right.


I think she was somewhat nervous by the crowd turning on her.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Maybe your next post should just contain the word "Black".


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

She also does not know the difference between Rules a private business establish for their operation and laws. She can be arrested for trespassing because they wanted her out without a mask.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Maybe your next post should just contain the word "Black".


Who are you talking to?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> She also does not know the difference between Rules a private business establish for their operation and laws. She can be arrested for trespassing because they wanted her out without a mask.


Until then, she is free to roam among us.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> Who are you talking to?


Maybe if you changed your name to Scottish Dixie you might find common ground.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Maybe if you changed your name to Scottish Dixie you might find common ground.


I fear much, much more would be needed than name change


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Is that your math? Or someone else's? The math is off.


2,855,000 ./. 46 = 62,065..... 62,065 x 52 = 3,227,391 It's called "rounding off'-- the counts aren't exact and we're projecting 6 weeks as if we know for sure that they'll follow the average. 

Close enough for govt work, as they say.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

doc- said:


> 2,855,000 ./. 46 = 62,065..... 62,065 x 52 = 3,227,391 It's called "rounding off'-- the counts aren't exact and we're projecting 6 weeks as if we know for sure that they'll follow the average.
> 
> Close enough for govt work, as they say.


Yet not really useful when you off and then try to use inaccurate numbers to prove a 40 percent number. I also noticed you used 50,000 when the range is 20,000to 50,000 and last year's increase was 19,000 and most years are in the lower half of that range.

Then again I am a by the numbers person. Not a roundup or round down when it suits me.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Seems an odd perspective when you continue to reference the CDC.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Seems an odd perspective when you continue to reference the CDC.


I don't hold the same disdain for their collection of the data that you do.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Inconsistency in their reporting means they are unreliable. The entire year is proof of that.
If one continues to use unreliable data it reflects on them as well. I don't disdain them but I'll bet you can strengthen your message with better research.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Inconsistency in their reporting means they are unreliable. The entire year is proof of that.
> If one continues to use unreliable data it reflects on them as well. I don't disdain them but I'll bet you can strengthen your message with better research.


Feel free to provide proof of their inconsistency. As they don't profess to have accurate and complete numbers until 1 year after the end of the year and all the data is collected and entered, I suspect you have no proof just your opinion.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yet not really useful when they quote something and then backtrack or contradict themselves as they have done continuously during 2020 and continue to do so.

Members have pointed out their inaccuracies for sometime now. If you skip posts you don't agree with and reporting that goes against bias, you miss out on a lot.

If you know they are putting out numbers that aren't correct or are incomplete, then why use incorrect or incomplete calculations, regardless of whether they are politized or not?

Many folks here have seen enough bad information and lopsided links to become good at it; so other tactics are needed or simply recognize you are walking over your own tracks.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Yet not really useful when they quote something and then backtrack or contradict themselves as they have done continuously during 2020 and continue to do so.
> 
> Members have pointed out their inaccuracies for sometime now. If you skip posts you don't agree with and reporting that goes against bias, you miss out on a lot.
> 
> ...


Feel free to show me these inaccuracies in reporting as posted by others. Information is a good thing.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> I'm going to go back to my original question about immunity from covid as a result of having had covid.
> 
> So, if we vaccinate people who have already had covid, aren't we just wasting vaccines? If we vaccinate only those who have not had covid wouldn't we reach herd immunity just that much sooner?
> 
> If having covid does not make you immune to covid, then why do the "experts" think a vaccine will make you immune to covid?


Stop using logic. It's so last century ya know.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Feel free to show me these inaccuracies in reporting as posted by others. Information is a good thing.


I suppose I assumed you read threads and posts completely and weren't just using links to support what you could not articulate. My mistake.
Issues with the CDC have been documented ad nauseum and are ongoing. Some of what they put out is true and some is cnn level garbage.
Before you respond, you should take a moment and give members the courtesy of reading and trying to understand what they write.
Then you wouldn't be asked to scroll thru what has already been rehashed and confirmed as authentic or not.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> I suppose I assumed you read threads and posts completely and weren't just using links to support what you could not articulate. My mistake.
> Issues with the CDC have been documented ad nauseum and are ongoing. Some of what they put out is true and some is cnn level garbage.
> Before you respond, you should take a moment and give members the courtesy of reading and trying to understand what they write.
> Then you wouldn't be asked to scroll thru what has already been rehashed and confirmed as authentic or not.


She knows what her reply is before you even post.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> I suppose I assumed you read threads and posts completely and weren't just using links to support what you could not articulate. My mistake.
> Issues with the CDC have been documented ad nauseum and are ongoing. Some of what they put out is true and some is cnn level garbage.
> Before you respond, you should take a moment and give members the courtesy of reading and trying to understand what they write.
> Then you wouldn't be asked to scroll thru what has already been rehashed and confirmed as authentic or not.


All I see is you offer no proof of what you say. I provided links to back up my posts.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The proof is as close as the "New" and "Popular" section of HT. I shouldn't have to provide a link to a webpage you are currently on should I?


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

When you look at what the WHO, CDC, and other groups have said you have to know they will tell you whatever they want you to think at the time. Rationalize this if you can. They tell us COVID cases are rising because people are not wearing masks and social distancing. Okay. Only a couple days ago someone at the CDC was asked why flu cases are so few this year and responded that is because people are wearing masks and social distancing. Those answers are simply not compatible. Are people wearing masks and social distancing or are they not? The CDC is saying yes in one instance but no in the other.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Ah. She said it. “All I see.” 

Nothing like admitting prejudice.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> The proof is as close as the "New" and "Popular" section of HT. I shouldn't have to provide a link to a webpage you are currently on should I?


I have seen no proof provided on the assertions that the CDC provisional numbers are wrong. Just assertions and opinion. If it is there as you say you should be able to provide it.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

poppy said:


> When you look at what the WHO, CDC, and other groups have said you have to know they will tell you whatever they want you to think at the time. Rationalize this if you can. They tell us COVID cases are rising because people are not wearing masks and social distancing. Okay. Only a couple days ago someone at the CDC was asked why flu cases are so few this year and responded that is because people are wearing masks and social distancing. Those answers are simply not compatible. Are people wearing masks and social distancing or are they not? The CDC is saying yes in one instance but no in the other.


The CDC should be considered as an organization whose studies and findings are beyond reproach. At this point in time, it is pretty well understood that they are at best a sub or secondary source. In other words, whatever they put out on Tuesday should probably not be used to bolster an argument until it has been cooberated and backed up with other agencies; Wednesday they may issue something different.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Ah. She said it. “All I see.”
> 
> Nothing like admitting prejudice.


I think it's ok to be biased. It just looks silly to post information you don't quite understand enough or realize your source link has a pattern of inaccuracy.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Yet not really useful when you off and then try to use inaccurate numbers to prove a 40 percent number. I also noticed you used 50,000 when the range is 20,000to 50,000 and last year's increase was 19,000 and most years are in the lower half of that range.
> 
> Then again I am a by the numbers person. Not a roundup or round down when it suits me.


!0,000 deaths is only 0.3% of the total each year, so that range of 20-50,000 only represents a 0.6 - 1.5% change (consistent with the 1% annual population growth)....When you claim a 40% error in reporting, 1% is nothing.

I'm not arguing with you as much as trying to put things in perspective for you, obviously having a much greater understanding of data, statistics and math and knowledge of their meaning.

We've said this before here-- given that 60% of reported CoViD deaths occur in nursing home pts, and that the life expectancy after an admission to a NH is only 5 months even without CoV, we can pretty much ignore 60% of the CoV deaths when trying to evaluate the true extent & impact of this epidemic....

.Remove 60% of 330,000 CoViD deaths and we only have 132,000.... 132,000 ./. 330,000,000 = 0.04% of Americans.....132,000 ./. 19,400,000 CoV+ cases = death rate of 0.7% of cases-- now we're really getting down to influenza type numbers....

...makes me think this epidemic is being used as a political ploy, not a real medical crisis....NBC once again reported yesterday on "The Crisis with hospitals filled to 75% of capacity"...That's their _usual_ occupancy rate. Where's The Crisis?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

@doc- I'd like to buy you lunch if you come south


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Well your 60 percent of covid deaths is in nursing homes is wrong. You keep using incorrect numbers when trying to back your statements. Starting with wrong numbers constantly keeps giving you wrong numbers in the end. Your attempt to put things in perspective is flawed from the start.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Well your 60 percent of covid deaths is in nursing homes is wrong. You keep using incorrect numbers when trying to back your statements. Starting with wrong numbers constantly keeps giving you wrong numbers in the end. Your attempt to put things in perspective is flawed from the start.


Plug in 40 percent that DR death is reporting and give us your statistics?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Covid death charts. Pick the largest number off of whatever chart you want. Then double it, just to make sure the numbers will for sure cover any possible covid deaths.

The numbers you now have are still not enough to justify the wrecked economy or justify the political stunts that we are having to deal with. 

Just my opinion.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Well your 60 percent of covid deaths is in nursing homes is wrong. You keep using incorrect numbers when trying to back your statements. Starting with wrong numbers constantly keeps giving you wrong numbers in the end. Your attempt to put things in perspective is flawed from the start.


Ok. I stand corrected. I was using 60% NH based on June data. Now it's 40% of all CoV deaths. Covid cases and deaths in nursing homes are getting worse (cnbc.com) 
Redo the numbers: 40% of 337000deaths = 135,000 deaths in NHs

337,000 -135000 = 202,000 deaths in 19,400,000 cases = 1% not 0.7%...Make a big difference in our conclusions?


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

doc- said:


> Ok. I stand corrected. I was using 60% NH based on June data. Now it's 40% of all CoV deaths. Covid cases and deaths in nursing homes are getting worse (cnbc.com)
> Redo the numbers: 40% of 337000deaths = 135,000 deaths in NHs
> 
> 337,000 -135000 = 202,000 deaths in 19,400,000 cases = 1% not 0.7%...Make a big difference in our conclusions?


I bet you won't get a response worth anything. I'm not good on statistics but the last I saw was 1/161 death rate diagnosed in prison.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

doc- said:


> Ok. I stand corrected. I was using 60% NH based on June data. Now it's 40% of all CoV deaths. Covid cases and deaths in nursing homes are getting worse (cnbc.com)
> Redo the numbers: 40% of 337000deaths = 135,000 deaths in NHs
> 
> 337,000 -135000 = 202,000 deaths in 19,400,000 cases = 1% not 0.7%...Make a big difference in our conclusions?


So now your premise is that they were going to die in the near future so they should not be counted as Covid deaths. Is that correct.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> You keep using incorrect numbers when trying to back your statements. Starting with wrong numbers constantly keeps giving you wrong numbers in the end. Your attempt to put things in perspective is flawed from the start.


Doh! That is pretty much what you have been told about the CDC...
Using the medical industry to prop you up seems to work for you until a Doctor disagrees with you.

Like the Beatles, the hits just keep on coming.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)




----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Doh! That is pretty much what you have been told about the CDC...
> Using the medical industry to prop you up seems to work for you until a Doctor disagrees with you.
> 
> Like the Beatles, the hits just keep on coming.


The doc changed the playing field after repeatedly getting the numbers wrong.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

poppy said:


> When you look at what the WHO, CDC, and other groups have said you have to know they will tell you whatever they want you to think at the time. Rationalize this if you can. They tell us COVID cases are rising because people are not wearing masks and social distancing. Okay. Only a couple days ago someone at the CDC was asked why flu cases are so few this year and responded that is because people are wearing masks and social distancing. Those answers are simply not compatible. Are people wearing masks and social distancing or are they not? The CDC is saying yes in one instance but no in the other.


This one bears repeating.
The argument becomes sort of awkward when the CDC gets a pass on that claptrap while harping on a Doctor for rounding off numbers. I'm seeing the ref getting close to blowing the whistle on this dog.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

painterswife said:


> The doc changed the playing field after repeatedly getting the numbers wrong.


I am certain your mind was open to a different and more scientific methodology than what you have convinced yourself of beforehand. Perhaps you could look at other things that you have convinced yourself of and find some older data they used and reexamine your beliefs and conclusions.


----------



## siberian1 (Aug 7, 2020)

Inflated, deflated whatever. It seems to bad enough to have world recognition. I don't live in a world of paranoia or fear, Yet see communist's, , socialists, rep and dem affected as well as poor and rich. Be safe folks. Maybe a mask doesn't work, but it least it says that Im not as smart as the medical leaders of the world and because they say wear it I will wear it as a sign of respect to the folks around me.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

painterswife said:


> So now your premise is that they were going to die in the near future so they should not be counted as Covid deaths. Is that correct.


No.... My premise is not to callously forget them because they were going to die anyway, but to tweeze them out of the calculation to see what the risk is to non-NH, ambulatory, every-day Americans is.

Suppose we want to evaluate the risk of freezing to death for people who live in Miami. If we randomly select 10 names out of the phone book, chances are none of those people will freeze to death this year....But what if, just by chance, two of the names selected were people who took a trip to the Yukon, got lost and died in the mountains...Would we be justified in claiming 20% of all residents of Miami are at risk?

When data is collected and evaluated, often the numbers bunch closely around an average, but there will be *out-liers*-- those that are far away from the bunch..*Those have to be explained*...Were they mistakes in measurements or were they under some extra, unknown influence?...You start by just finding the average of "the bunch" (ie- eliminate the outliers from the calculation) and seeing if the outliers are statistically significantly important.

Only 0.6% of Americans live in NHs, yet count for 40% of CoV deaths...Is that because numbers are deviously misrepresented for financial reasons, or because NHs pts are so frail & more likely to die, or because conditions in NHs are so deplorable that the disease spreads easily? --Each explanation would require markedly different solutions...

...and should we require the solution we select to be imposed on the rest of society at large?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Sorry but you are off on a tangent now. I have shown several times now that your numbers have been wrong and now you are talking about something completely different. Have fun with that. It is not the topic I was discussing.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

All the numbers about survival rate are totally meaningless when you take this into account: As Many As 60 Million Americans May Have Had A Coronavirus Infection, But That’s A Long Way From Herd Immunity (forbes.com)


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Just now saw a state legislator from Minnesota on tv saying they want an audit of death certificates in the state because they examined 2800 death certificates listed as COVID deaths and 800 of those did not have COVID listed as an underlying cause of death.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

You can use numbers to prove or disprove anything you want. My accountant does it all the time. In my daily travels, I haven't had to step over any dead bodies to get to the checkout. This in stores that mandate mask usage, and are usually full of overweight old people with masks on their chin, or pulled to one side so they can talk on the phone that is covered in germs.


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## Grafton County Couple (Sep 20, 2018)

So, back in early 2020 our elected officials shut America down. Hard working American livelihoods were impacted and/or lost. Schools closed, impacting America’s children developmentally, educationally, and socially. You could buy beer but you couldn’t go to a twelve step meeting. Suicide & drug use increased. Senior facility deaths that were recorded/reported as ‘virus related’ became talking points for pushing their agendas. Politicians even went so far as to decide who could work and who could not based on their interpretation of what Americans needed. Mandate after mandate was created and implemented. Along the way, average everyday Americans continued to be negatively impacted by their decisions. Their response; toss us all some 'table scraps'. Meanwhile, all the elected officials spent so much time bickering and pointing fingers. The level of caustic and venomous political spewing by all of them was appalling. Fortunately, we were briefly distracted by the so-called election, elected officials collectively kowtowing to, and/or declining to arrest/prosecute some individuals/groups whose actions negatively impacted others.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Grafton County Couple said:


> So, back in early 2020 our elected officials shut America down. Hard working American livelihoods were impacted and/or lost. Schools closed, impacting America’s children developmentally, educationally, and socially. You could buy beer but you couldn’t go to a twelve step meeting. Suicide & drug use increased. Senior facility deaths that were recorded/reported as ‘virus related’ became talking points for pushing their agendas. Politicians even went so far as to decide who could work and who could not based on their interpretation of what Americans needed. Mandate after mandate was created and implemented. Along the way, average everyday Americans continued to be negatively impacted by their decisions. Their response; toss us all some 'table scraps'. Meanwhile, all the elected officials spent so much time bickering and pointing fingers. The level of caustic and venomous political spewing by all of them was appalling. Fortunately, we were briefly distracted by the so-called election, elected officials collectively kowtowing to, and/or declining to arrest/prosecute some individuals/groups whose actions negatively impacted others.


Now that you have experienced and survived 2020, you will be prepared for the 2021 experience, though less agitated and panicked. It will all seem normal soon.


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## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

poppy said:


> Just now saw a state legislator from Minnesota on tv saying they want an audit of death certificates in the state because they examined 2800 death certificates listed as COVID deaths and 800 of those did not have COVID listed as an underlying cause of death.


Did you by any chance read the article linked in the thread starter? The legislator you just saw was one of the ones the article was highlighting, you just watched the abbreviated video version of the article.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Wealthy hospitals rake in U.S. disaster aid for COVID-19 costs


After collecting billions of dollars in U.S. coronavirus aid, many of the nation’s wealthiest nonprofit hospitals are now tapping into disaster relief funds that critics say they don’t need.




www.reuters.com





Even the liberal media takes note.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

(CNN) Dawn Wells, who played the loveable castaway Mary Ann Summers on "Gilligan's Island," died in Los Angeles on Wednesday from Covid-19 complications, her publicist Harlan Boll confirmed to CNN.

She was 82.









Dawn Wells, Mary Ann on 'Gilligan's Island,' dies of Covid-19 complications at 82 | CNN


Dawn Wells, who played the lovable castaway Mary Ann Summers on "Gilligan's Island," died in Los Angeles on Wednesday from Covid-19 complications, her publicist Harlan Boll confirmed to CNN.




www.cnn.com


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Nevada said:


> (CNN) Dawn Wells, who played the loveable castaway Mary Ann Summers on "Gilligan's Island," died in Los Angeles on Wednesday from Covid-19 complications, her publicist Harlan Boll confirmed to CNN.
> 
> She was 82.
> 
> ...


Ok? That's all you can come up with!!!


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

> >She was 82. <<


7% of 82 y/o's don't live to be 83. Actuarial Life Table (ssa.gov) 


Half of all 82 y/o's die within the next 6.5 yrs.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Nevada said:


> (CNN) Dawn Wells, who played the loveable castaway Mary Ann Summers on "Gilligan's Island," died in Los Angeles on Wednesday from Covid-19 complications, her publicist Harlan Boll confirmed to CNN.
> 
> She was 82.
> 
> ...


Just go on enlighten us about the other six castaways deaths.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> Wealthy hospitals rake in U.S. disaster aid for COVID-19 costs
> 
> 
> After collecting billions of dollars in U.S. coronavirus aid, many of the nation’s wealthiest nonprofit hospitals are now tapping into disaster relief funds that critics say they don’t need.
> ...


 I'm taking note of the wording in the article, notably 
"nation's wealthiest non profit hospitals".


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

TripleD said:


> Ok? That's all you can come up with!!!


What were you looking for?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Nevada said:


> What were you looking for?


Is she a real Ginger?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Is she a real Ginger?


The real Mary Ann. A native Nevadan, growing up in Reno and crowned Miss Nevada in the Miss America Pageant. If she wasn't an American treasure then I don't know who might be.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Nevada said:


> The real Mary Ann. A native Nevadan, growing up in Reno and crowned Miss Nevada in the Miss America Pageant.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

HDRider said:


> View attachment 92942


That's Tina Louise.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Nevada said:


> That's Tina Louise.


I was asking about Ginger, pay attention


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Nevada said:


> What were you looking for?


Nevada. You are smarter than that. What did the other six " castaways" die from and their ages?


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

mreynolds said:


> Wealthy hospitals rake in U.S. disaster aid for COVID-19 costs
> 
> 
> After collecting billions of dollars in U.S. coronavirus aid, many of the nation’s wealthiest nonprofit hospitals are now tapping into disaster relief funds that critics say they don’t need.
> ...


This pretty much proves how much this whole thing is about the money.

Corporations are getting richer and small businesses are getting broker.

Funny, the left used to rail against corporations. I wonder why they don't do that anymore. I suppose they never really cared. They just wanted to wail and gnash.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The left rails against wars but their leaders vote for them.
The left rails against corporations while they rake in the piles of donations.
Anyone looking for a 3rd party is missing that there is only one remaining, the uniparty.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The following was written by a former restaurant owner. Take the time to read and absorb this.

_As I walk into the grocery store with 30 other people at the same time, I think about my restaurant which allows parties of 6 total, and meticulously spaces out reservations by 10 minutes ensuring guests that aren’t from the same party do not arrive at the same time.

As I take a cart, that has had just the handle sanitized, I think about my restaurant which invested thousands of dollars (so far) on ink and paper to print disposable menus to ensure no two guests touch the same menu.

As I walk over to the produce aisle with 15-20 other people around me, I’m reminded of the strict “no mingling / no walking around the restaurant other than to use the washroom or enter/exit” policy we have in place and the 6ft distance between tables which has cut our capacity in half.

As I watch the woman next to me pick up apples with her hand, check them over closely and then put them back on the open pile and repeats this until she finds the perfect apples — the same thing that all other people that day who want an apple will then do and then put those apples into their mouths, I think about the two step sanitation process in place at my restaurant for all cutlery and dishes and glassware in between every single guest, and the sanitation of every surface guests touch (tables, chairs, salt and pepper shakers, etc).

As I watch the man in the next aisle over ignore or not notice the directional arrows on the ground, I think about my restaurant and the constant redirecting our staff does of guests - by locking certain doors, blocking areas off and the work my team does to simply not allow guests to walk where they are not supposed to.

As I walk down the cereal aisle, I see a person with their mask off so they can talk on the phone, and I’m reminded of my restaurant where our masking policy has lost us so much business.

As I check out at the cashier, I use my debit card to pay and see the plastic film covering the terminal. It was not sanitized after the person before me used it. I am reminded of the sanitizer used on the debit terminals in between each guest every time at my restaurant.

As I stand at a crowded exit trying to leave, I’m reminded of the detailed contact tracing in place at my restaurant that records the name, phone number, table number, arrival and exit time, as well as the server and section the guest sat in that is in place at my restaurant— not one of those pieces of information was taken from any customer here.

As I get into my car and watch all these people leave the store, I wonder which person will visit my establishment after contracting covid at this grocery store, and I wonder why on earth my restaurant will be blamed as the source.

Restaurants are being targeted as the “source” of Covid infections because we are one of the ONLY industries required to provide contact tracing.
Someone with Covid could have gone to Costco, Home Depot, Walmart, the Mall food court....any grocery store, etc. Yet it’s the restaurant that took their detailed information that will be forced to close and deemed responsible for the infection.

You want to blame restaurants for the spread after thousands of dollars investing in equipment, training and stricter policies than ANYWHERE ELSE?!
PROVE IT _


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

TripleD said:


> Nevada. You are smarter than that. What did the other six " castaways" die from and their ages?


If your point is that they were going to die eventually anyway, then just say it.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Nevada said:


> If your point is that they were going to die eventually anyway, then just say it.


Not at all! You were the one who brought it up on her passing. What was the cause of death and ages of the rest? Didn't I explain it well enough???


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Why in the world is that some sort of issue?

Rest in peace, Dawn Wells.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Nevada said:


> If your point is that they were going to die eventually anyway, then just say it.


Aren't we all? Can you imagine living the last days of your life in a nursing home, forbidden by some wannabe despot from even seeing your loved ones and no one advocating on your behalf with your treatment? And you can see how well that "isolation" protocol is working.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

TripleD said:


> Not at all! You were the one who brought it up on her passing. What was the cause of death and ages of the rest? Didn't I explain it well enough???


Tina Louise is 4 years older and still alive.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Nevada said:


> Tina Louise is 4 years older and still alive.


Redheads can generate its own Vitamin D with little sunlight and vitamin D is thought to battle covid









The Mystery DNA Of Redheads Finally Explained - Longevity LIVE


Redheads have always fascinated humanity - now scientists have been able to discover the exact genes behind this unique trait.




longevitylive.com


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Hiro said:


> Aren't we all? Can you imagine living the last days of your life in a nursing home, forbidden by some wannabe despot from even seeing your loved ones and no one advocating on your behalf with your treatment? And you can see how well that "isolation" protocol is working.


So we euthanize them?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> So we euthanize them?


We don't euthanize our elderly, neither should we torture them.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Nevada said:


> So we euthanize them?


More sophomoric leading questions? How about you treat them like you want to be treated?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Nevada said:


> So we euthanize them?



Why don't we just let them have the vaccine if they want it instead of politicians and other groups jumping to the head of the line? All we heard since March was how we needed a vaccine to protect the elderly because they are the most seriously affected group with the most deaths. Suddenly now that the vaccine is here politicians are getting vaccinated along with first responders and some states (the usual suspects) are promoting the vaccine to minorities first.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> So we euthanize them?


Newsome did! Cuomo did too! And Whitmir, Murphy...Wolf. Thousands and thousands died because they panicked.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Hiro said:


> Aren't we all? Can you imagine living the last days of your life in a nursing home, forbidden by some wannabe despot from even seeing your loved ones and no one advocating on your behalf with your treatment? And you can see how well that "isolation" protocol is working.


Meanwhile those Nursing Home employees making just above minimum wage are leaving work and heading to their 2nd job at Walmart or McDonalds or other fill in the blank job that is deemed essential yet cootie ridden. 
They get to spend time with your papaw and grannymaw.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Rodeo's Bud said:


> This pretty much proves how much this whole thing is about the money.
> 
> Corporations are getting richer and small businesses are getting broker.


It's more than that-- It's about power & control....
Over the last 2-3 decades, consolidation has been occurring at an alarming rate. The small guy just can't compete.

- The banking laws were changed during The Great Recession 10 yrs ago putting all small,, local banks out of business. -EPA & DOT regs make it impossible for anyone other than the major auto makers to build cars. 
-Obummer Care has eliminated private practitioners & small med equipment suppliers
-Used to be 4 gas stations at every intersection. Now a full tank of gas may not get you to the next filling station.
-CoV regs eliminate small restaurants & bars and small grocers-- Only the chains can stand to offer free deilvery, etc to surviuve.

I could go on. You get the idea. ...It's much easier for the political power elite to bandwith a few rich suppliers than to regulate & control many small guys.

This is our future under the totalitarians masquerading as "socialists."

Down with Big Brother!


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> So we euthanize them?


When I questioned locking down seniors, I was asked if I had the right to kill someone else's granny, yet the trend seems to be that staff is bringing the virus into nursing homes and extended care facilities and the cause of death for many has been failure to thrive due to isolation. 

I can't make sure my own father is eating enough to survive and I'm pretty sure the young kitchen staff that drops off trays aren't checking either and it doesn't take a genius to figure out a 6' man shouldn't weigh 130 lbs (I had to ask the head nurse to have him weighed). 

My cousin's mother indicated she was quite hungry late afternoon and we my cousin questioned when her last meal was, the young lady in the kitchen said she didn't realize her mother wanted lunch but if she did, they'd get lunch out to her right away, one hour before supper. 

Are you sure that seniors in care facilities want to sit in their rooms for 23 hours a day without the comfort of family?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

If the average length of stay at a nursing home is 5 months, under any conditions that would be long enough for me. The issues in the post above were occurring long before this virus, and now with restricted access to family, I'd have to say "What is the point?"


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Don't get me started on "skilled" nursing facility incompetence.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

We don't need to. It is pretty well understood that the conditions in most nursing homes were substandard before all of this.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> If the average length of stay at a nursing home is 5 months, under any conditions that would be long enough for me. The issues in the post above were occurring long before this virus, and now with restricted access to family, I'd have to say "What is the point?"


I've always said that if you know you're in a nursing home, you don't belong there.

How is it that one woman can take care of 8 kids, but eight kids can't take care of one old woman?

If citizens are wiling to abdicate their duties as family to the govt, then they have to shut up and take what the govt provides....After all, if you gave up a kid to adoption, would you expect to have a say in how they're raised after that?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Meanwhile those Nursing Home employees making just above minimum wage are leaving work and heading to their 2nd job at Walmart or McDonalds or other fill in the blank job that is deemed essential yet cootie ridden.
> They get to spend time with your papaw and grannymaw.


You should win the prize of the year! We have tenants who do that exact work. I get junk calls from mom about me doing most of the service calls...


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

doc- said:


> I've always said that if you know you're in a nursing home, you don't belong there.
> 
> How is it that one woman can take care of 8 kids, but eight kids can't take care of one old woman?
> 
> If citizens are wiling to abdicate their duties as family to the govt, then they have to shut up and take what the govt provides....After all, if you gave up a kid to adoption, would you expect to have a say in how they're raised after that?


As someone who is taking care of an old woman, I just want to pipe in that it isn't as easy as all that. Luckily she's still got the majority of her wits about her and can move herself on and off the pot and into the shower, but once she starts stripping naked and taking off down the street the second I look away or can't shift her own weight to the toilet, we'll have to think about other arrangements. I'm no spring chicken myself as far as carrying a full-grown human around or watching someone like a hawk 24-7 goes, my husband has to work full time, and the only other person in the house is another physically disabled person. The problem with assuming that all 5 of her kids will take care of her is that we all live separately, and the responsibility falls to one person, not 5. 

Waving at you all as one from the sandwich generation with a parent and a child I'm still taking care of at the age most people are off enjoying their empty nest and the middle age years they've worked so hard to make comfortable. I don't bat an eyelash at anyone who realizes they can't do it for whatever reason, I totally understand.

Secondarily, the government isn't the only option for nursing homes. My grandmother put herself into a private Catholic nursing home which was absolutely wonderful when she realized she couldn't physically live alone anymore and said we'd drive her crazy faster than she was already going there if she moved in with any of us.


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## donray (Oct 13, 2020)

I had 2 otherwise healthy friends who died from Covid, so you will never convince me that this is not a health crisis. We know (and I think agree) that ICU beds are are far more unavailable than last year. It was quiet offensive when someone alleged that was because medical providers wanted to make more money. Apparently that poster does not really know that these people risk their lives to help people like him/her . BTW, if you are a skeptic of the death tolls, please don't get in my way to get the vaccine. Practice what you preach and go to unmasked gatherings.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

donray said:


> I had 2 otherwise healthy friends who died from Covid, so you will never convince me that this is not a health crisis. We know (and I think agree) that ICU beds are are far more unavailable than last year. It was quiet offensive when someone alleged that was because medical providers wanted to make more money. Apparently that poster does not really know that these people risk their lives to help people like him/her . BTW, if you are a skeptic of the death tolls, please don't get in my way to get the vaccine. Practice what you preach and go to unmasked gatherings.


Most on this thread do not seem to deny that covid is real. Most seem to actually care about those getting sick, and understand perfectly well that some people are dying from covid. The problem for some, such as I, is the absolutely ridiculous way things are being handled. 

Some business being closed while others left open with little apparent common sense to it. 

The wrecked economy as a result. 

The handling of the elderly in and out of nursing homes. 

The difficult process to take care of existing illness issues that should and in many cases must be handled, and are not. All due to the politics and practices being provided by those that are supposed to be managing the problems. 

The problem with so many wanting others to protect them, then being surprised it does not work. Instead of being responsible for their own well being and safety practices. 

The next to useless methods that many people are using to wear their supposedly effective surgical mask. 

The methods being used to count covid cases and what is being considered a covid case. 

The methods being used to obtain a positive or negative test result. 

The financial incentive to classify a variety of medical issues as being a result of covid. 

Last and not least is the extremely poor way the media has handled their reporting, if it can even be called that. 

I figure the people actually doing the work taking care of the ill are doing the best they can. It’s the ones that manage them and the faculties they work in that are a problem. Same for the various government branches they have to respond to. 

Probably more, but I grow weary already with the list provided. Best of luck and hopefully your not one of those that fits some of the list above.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Redlands Okie said:


> Most on this thread do not seem to deny that covid is real. Most seem to actually care about those getting sick, and understand perfectly well that some people are dying from covid. The problem for some, such as I, is the absolutely ridiculous way things are being handled.
> 
> Some business being closed while others left open with little apparent common sense to it.
> 
> ...


This ^^^^^^


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Redlands Okie said:


> Most on this thread do not seem to deny that covid is real. Most seem to actually care about those getting sick, and understand perfectly well that some people are dying from covid. The problem for some, such as I, is the absolutely ridiculous way things are being handled.
> 
> Some business being closed while others left open with little apparent common sense to it.


There is not common sense to it. There is a purpose to it.



Redlands Okie said:


> The wrecked economy as a result.
> 
> The handling of the elderly in and out of nursing homes.
> 
> The difficult process to take care of existing illness issues that should and in many cases must be handled, and are not. All due to the politics and practices being provided by those that are supposed to be managing the problems.


The wrecked economy in some places and the sacrifice to the elderly is for the purpose. 



Redlands Okie said:


> The problem with so many wanting others to protect them, then being surprised it does not work. Instead of being responsible for their own well being and safety practices.
> 
> The next to useless methods that many people are using to wear their supposedly effective surgical mask.


Anyone with even rudimentary training in respiratory protection in a medical or hazardous material training have rolled their eyes at the general populace wearing masks and their handling of them. This is not how you select, wear and handle a mask.



Redlands Okie said:


> The methods being used to count covid cases and what is being considered a covid case.
> 
> The methods being used to obtain a positive or negative test result.
> 
> ...


I, too am weary. It is more disturbing how easily people can be turned on other citizens. It is terribly disturbing how people can be misled. It is most disturbing how law enforcement will follow illegal, unconstitutional diktats and oppress their fellow citizens. It isn't new that wanna be dictators want these things to be inflicted upon the hoi poloi.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Hiro said:


> There is not common sense to it. There is a purpose to it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Exploit every crisis."--Rahm Emmanuel...It's right out of the Rules for Radicles playbook pf The Left.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

donray said:


> I had 2 otherwise healthy friends who died from Covid, so you will never convince me that this is not a health crisis. We know (and I think agree) that ICU beds are are far more unavailable than last year. It was quiet offensive when someone alleged that was because medical providers wanted to make more money. Apparently that poster does not really know that these people risk their lives to help people like him/her . BTW, if you are a skeptic of the death tolls, please don't get in my way to get the vaccine. Practice what you preach and go to unmasked gatherings.


No one has ever said on this forum that doctors, nurses and other care givers have padded the books. They dont do the books anyway because they are too busy. You are reading stuff and seeing what you want to see. Hospital administrators are the ones directing the billing. They often have no medical experience. Their job is to bring in money. 

There is even an article that states that hospitals are flush with money this year. I guess you didnt read that one.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> Hospital administrators are the ones directing the billing.


It's the insurance companies who are really in the drivers' seat when it comes to billing.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Nevada said:


> It's the insurance companies who are really in the drivers' seat when it comes to billing.


Apples and oranges in this case Nevada. The Federal government has already said they will pay 30,000 dollars for each Covid case listed in the hospital. Insurance is not paying for that, taxpayers are. So that is why some of us question all the Covid cases they say. I know for a fact of 2 cases that the autopsy clearly showed they did not die of Covid. In fact, there was no Covid in the body at all. They are in the court systems right now in Houston at a major world renown hospital. It will probably never make the media because they will most likely settle out of court. 

One died of a blood clot and even the hospital tests showed no Covid because they were tested by the staff. But when the bill came out it said died from covid complications. The family had enough money to have an independent coroner do an autopsy. Now they will have to pay out or get found out. How did it get changed from blood clot from the Dr paperwork to Covid by the billing dept paperwork? That is the burning question we all have. 

I am sure this has only happened twice though. And both were in Houston. No one else would ever do that huh?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> Apples and oranges in this case Nevada. The Federal government has already said they will pay 30,000 dollars for each Covid case listed in the hospital. Insurance is not paying for that, taxpayers are. So that is why some of us question all the Covid cases they say. I know for a fact of 2 cases that the autopsy clearly showed they did not die of Covid. In fact, there was no Covid in the body at all. They are in the court systems right now in Houston at a major world renown hospital. It will probably never make the media because they will most likely settle out of court.
> 
> One died of a blood clot and even the hospital tests showed no Covid because they were tested by the staff. But when the bill came out it said died from covid complications. The family had enough money to have an independent coroner do an autopsy. Now they will have to pay out or get found out. How did it get changed from blood clot from the Dr paperwork to Covid by the billing dept paperwork? That is the burning question we all have.
> 
> I am sure this has only happened twice though. And both were in Houston. No one else would ever do that huh?


That's an interesting loophole. I suppose you could also say that people who died with AIDS died of something else. AIDS just compromises the immune system, setting people up to die from a simple cold or flu. So when people die from complications of covid they often don't really die from covid.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> It's the insurance companies who are really in the drivers' seat when it comes to billing.


And they do all they can to lower the bill.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> It's the insurance companies who are really in the drivers' seat when it comes to billing.


The insurance companies have a price they want to pay. Do a lot to try to make it happen. 

It’s still the hospital administration that decides how and what is billed. It’s the hospital administration that decides how the money they have is spent. On example is mask inventory and other forms of PPE. Sure we can get them every week, until they could not. Instead of stocking some inventory for just in case, they let the venders carry the stock. Then act surprised and do not want to be held accountable for lack of supplies when they are needed. Numerous examples of chains closings down hospitals to save cost. Then people wonder why we do not have enough beds. People do not have the ability to hold hospitals accountable and the government enables them to continue their shoddy health care.

As far as the cause of death, they could at least list the causes instead of picking one item they want to use. Got a bad heart or breathing issues. No problem. Get covid and die, then its a covid death. How about understanding that they would have survived covid if they did not have a bad heart or breathing issues. Instead, the media and billing departments and politicians use covid to their advantage and some people do not seem able to understand what’s going on.


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## millipede (May 28, 2006)

I haven't really read much of the thread... and, I've seen a LOT of jokes and such on facebook about the deaths being inflated... Saw one picture of someone with an arrow through their head(cartoon) and the doctor said "it looks like you have an arrow in your head, but let me do a covid test to be sure." Something like that.

I have no first hand knowledge of what's happening... But I have seen people share their own stories... I was chatting with a local friend about this stuff and his friend jumped in to say how his brother-in-law died at the hospital. The nurses and then the doctor all said it was covid. This man fought/argued with the hospital and told them there was no way they'd put that down. The man supposedly had one main artery blocked 99% and another 90% blocked. 
It's very easy, I assume, for medical professionals to want to assign all deaths to covid IF the person had it at the time. Is that fair? I'd say not. 
My dad had stomach cancer. They gave him a year to live. He died in less than a week... from the cancer? No. His lungs were bad and he kept having fluid in them, etc.

The whole virus has me both a little worried and, at the same time thinking it's all blown out of proportion. You hear a story of a supposedly healthy person dying... then you see the story of someone that's 100 years old being released from the hospital after beating it. Doesn't make a ton of sense. I saw one story of a man, his mother, and his sister that all died. Has me pondering genetics... 
who knows.
I do know that the media is loving all the headlines they can put up every day, announcing new numbers.
And yes, I do mean they're loving it. They literally post anything that gives them ratings. 

I watched people accuse some of the tv vaccinations as being fake... that were not fake... but then I watched another one... and replayed it several times... a doctor was getting vaccinated and the nurse administering it had to pull the plunger out a little because it was already pushed ALL the way in at the time of injection... meaning there was absolutely nothing in the syringe. 
How can we trust anything these days?
You don't have to agree with the paranoid... but, can you really blame anyone for questioning these things? I mean, you're suggesting we just trust the government? 
Side note... we all trust and distrust the government in different ways. Like we also don't want the government to tell me what to do... unless it's something that I agree with... then it's okay for them to boss people around suddenly.
I'm rambling... but can you blame me? humbug...


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

millipede said:


> I haven't really read much of the thread.


People had 8 pages of things to say, and you did not read them. You have something to say, but no interest in listening to what others say.


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## bamabear44 (Jan 30, 2018)

A doctor that works where my granddaughter works, said that he told her, eveyone that dies is listed as Covid ,even if the died of something else....


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

bamabear44 said:


> A doctor that works where my granddaughter works, said that he told her, eveyone that dies is listed as Covid ,even if the died of something else....


???There have been 3 million deaths in the US this year. Only 300,000 of them are attributed to CoV. Your source is incredible at best; certainly a rare situation if true.


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## millipede (May 28, 2006)

HDRider said:


> People had 8 pages of things to say, and you did not read them. You have something to say, but no interest in listening to what others say.


Is there a question in there?
I always find it humorous when someone out there has some idea as to who deserves to share their thoughts and why.
I guarantee that other people replied without reading the whole conversation. Guarantee it.
There are no rules for online discussions.
Thank God my right to an opinion doesn't depend on how many pages I've read, or someone else's opinion of that.
If this was an in person conversation and someone walked up and said "hey, what are we talking about" nobody would insist on them getting all caught up or listen to a recording before they can participate.
There are no online rules for discussion.
So...
yes... I didn't read 8 pages and yes, I have something to say. I don't care if you don't like it. I don't care if you don't read it.
My response is relevant and on topic. Much of the discussion(that I skimmed) isn't even about whether or not deaths are inflated but people sharing their opinions as to whether the virus is serious or not.

If you'd like to come sit down and have a discussion to get me caught up, I'd entertain that. But when I replied last night I did not have the time to read 8 pages. Many people respond after just reading a headline.
online conversations would be a lot shorter if people were required to read every word before they were allowed to respond.
My apologies... not for responding without reading 8 pages but, for this response. I'm a bit tired and, this was one of the first things I read this morning... someone giving me attitude.

I'd ask you to show me the online discussion rule book but... 1. there isn't one and 2. I would not be alone in not following it. Get used to it. Get over it.
As an added apology... I am different. I do not abide by all social norms. People often misunderstand me. I never intend to but I do rub people the wrong way sometimes. I can't apologize for who I am and all my quirks... but I do apologize when it bothers someone.



doc- said:


> ???There have been 3 million deaths in the US this year. Only 300,000 of them are attributed to CoV. Your source is incredible at best; certainly a rare situation if true.


I could be wrong but, I think what they're saying is that everyone that dies and happens to have covid at the time, it's being written up as a covid death.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

millipede said:


> Is there a question in there?


No


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

HDRider said:


> People had 8 pages of things to say, and you did not read them. You have something to say, but no interest in listening to what others say.


That's the story of my life. It's not like anyone around here cares what I have to say.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Nevada said:


> That's the story of my life. It's not like anyone around here cares what I have to say.


That is not true. You might irritate me, and I do not think we have ever agreed politically but I like to read what you say. 

We used to have a meeting rule that if someone came in late they could not speak for at least one quarter of the allotted time for the meeting. If the meeting was an hour, and you came in late, you could not speak for 15 minutes after arriving.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Nevada said:


> That's the story of my life. It's not like anyone around here cares what I have to say.


I generally appreciate hearing your thoughts. If anyone cares what I think


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nevada said:


> That's an interesting loophole. I suppose you could also say that people who died with AIDS died of something else. AIDS just compromises the immune system, setting people up to die from a simple cold or flu. So when people die from complications of covid they often don't really die from covid.


And if a patient, like the one mentioned had tested and found to have no covid, why should they be added to covid related statistics?

A senior in my area chose to die of cancer at home, surrounded by family and in their case and the death certificate reads that they died of covid, because the family couldn't justify taking her to town for a negative covid test. 

The numbers of cases shouldn't need to be embellished, adjusted or modified to make things worse than they already are.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> That's the story of my life. It's not like anyone around here cares what I have to say.


Very true. You've been so wrong about so much so often that nobody believes or even cares about anything you have to say! I respond to your misrepresentation of facts. I pose questions and you never answer....


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## Jsb2id (Jan 29, 2021)

sharkerbaby said:


> Just going to leave this here...
> 
> Minnesota lawmakers say coronavirus deaths could be inflated by 40% after reviewing death certificates
> 
> ...


 higher the numbers more money state and locals municipalities get not rocket science when they think they are getting free money but we all know it’s not free there will be a price to pay for all this so called free money which is ours since government doesn’t produce or sell a thing but BS it our children and grandchildren who are going to pay and it will not be pretty


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