# Eggs Milk



## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

At Save A Lot eggs 45 cents a doz milk $1.29 gal. Milk at Food Lion $3.58 eggs 1.70


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Good golly! That is a huge difference.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I'd pay an extra $1 a gallon for milk if it went to the farmer. They are going broke at these prices.
I also see gasoline prices vary 25 to 30 cents a gallon from store to store. No excuses for that wide range.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

haypoint said:


> I'd pay an extra $1 a gallon for milk if it went to the farmer. They are going broke at these prices.
> I also see gasoline prices vary 25 to 30 cents a gallon from store to store. No excuses for that wide range.


No you wouldn't. You fight against farmers with every breath on here. Want money to go to farmers? Get the government to take their hand from the til. Fire the dirty crooked bureaucrats that breath down famrer's necks and ensure that farming is not profitable. Oh that's right, you are/were one of them.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> No you wouldn't. You fight against farmers with every breath on here. Want money to go to farmers? Get the government to take their hand from the til. Fire the dirty crooked bureaucrats that breath down famrer's necks and ensure that farming is not profitable. Oh that's right, you are/were one of them.


I have no idea what would fuel that rant. My parents grew up on farms, both grand parents were farmers. I have been farming since 1975, nearly every type of crop and livestock.
I have never fought against farming or farmers.
I find the notion that farmers troubles comes from "government hand in the till" sad. I figured you knew better. I have always spoke against over regulation. I favor truth, even when it runs against what I might is true. I do want milk pasteurized because I want the public to see milk as safe to drink. Without that confidence, people will favor nut juice.


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

Where do u live? I would b scared to eat eggs that cost .45cents  those poor cows


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

I don't consider people who raise 500 thousand chickens in a 200x200 building farmers...….or ones that milk 1000 cows at a time on machines.....




Here is a good inside look at industrial animals...…


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Doesn't look like the over-regulation of the dairy industry is helping to boost consumer confidence as much as intended. Not enough to make dairying profitable anyway. A few more dairy farmers pop a cap in themselves and it will be either nut milk or Chinese milk. It makes more sense to bulldoze the barn and develop the land from a mental health standpoint when you have the opportunity to suddenly inherit that property. Something being in your blood cannot outweigh cleaning up the blood stains of a loved one. Sure, if enough people get out of the business, by suicide or by other, more painful means, the supply will decrease to match demand. To make it worthwhile as a career, keeping up with inflation, we will need $17 a gallon milk, but China will be able to get it on shelf much cheaper than that, and consumers that can't afford the much better nut milk will buy it.


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## miggyb (May 2, 2015)

haypoint said:


> I'd pay an extra $1 a gallon for milk if it went to the farmer. They are going broke at these prices.
> I also see gasoline prices vary 25 to 30 cents a gallon from store to store. No excuses for that wide range.


The sales manager, at the Glidden Paint store explained his/the cheapest paint thinner price, in the area. It wasn,t a volume price as I suspected, but a sales strategy he called a "loss leader". An artificially lowered price to attract more traffic to the store and hopefully gain more than a paint thinner sale. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lossleader.asp.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

miggyb said:


> The sales manager, at the Glidden Paint store explained his/the cheapest paint thinner price, in the area. It wasn,t a volume price as I suspected, but a sales strategy he called a "loss leader". An artificially lowered price to attract more traffic to the store and hopefully gain more than a paint thinner sale. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lossleader.asp.


Right. I suspect that is what is going on.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Eggs 75 cents a dozen here with 2.29 a gallon milk Monday here.
the same brand store 11 miles away eggs 79 cents a dozen milk at 1.29 a gallon.

A lot of the milk farmers problems delvloped many years ago when it had to be pasturized to be sold in stores . They didn.t band together and form their own dairy for their product.
They let a middle man in who pays them squat and charges people a bunch.


 Al


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

alleyyooper said:


> A lot of the milk farmers problems delvloped many years ago when it had to be pasturized to be sold in stores . They didn.t band together and form their own dairy for their product.
> They let a middle man in who pays them squat and charges people a bunch.


Oh, of course, evil pasteurization. Oh, come on. Nearly every aspect of farming has the farmer buying retail, selling wholesale and paying the freight both ways.
Many milk processing factories are owned by the farmers in a Co-op. The problem is over production. This is caused by the economics that make larger dairies more efficient and therefore more profitable, combined by better genetics increasing yield from each cow.
If stores are losing money selling milk, they are not losing much. Dairy farmers are facing record low prices and no end in sight. Capitalism is like that.
Canada protects their farmers by limiting the size of a dairy and limiting who can start a dairy. The price is controlled and farmers turn a profit. Canadians, most happen to live within 20 miles of the US, stock up on cheap milk when shopping here.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

About 1.50 a gallon at Wally and aldies , eggs .85c both 35c more at save a lot. 
In effingham Il. And Mattoon Prices about 15 c higher in vandalia Il. About $1 higher in Pana and about the same or a little than that In Shelbyville


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

haypoint said:


> I'd pay an extra $1 a gallon for milk if it went to the farmer. They are going broke at these prices.
> I also see gasoline prices vary 25 to 30 cents a gallon from store to store. No excuses for that wide range.


Gas is $2.80 eastern wv


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

AmericanStand said:


> About 1.50 a gallon at Wally and aldies , eggs .85c both 35c more at save a lot.
> In effingham Il. And Mattoon Prices about 15 c higher in vandalia Il. About $1 higher in Pana and about the same or a little than that In Shelbyville



Prices all over the place. This time of year I start gathering snowed in food. Any good ways to freeze milk?


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## 4tu (Jul 24, 2018)

Forcast said:


> Prices all over the place. This time of year I start gathering snowed in food. Any good ways to freeze milk?


you could can it in mason jars lasts longer than cans you may make your own sweetened condensed milk and can it. look up soft cheese recipes and can that. Jackie Clay of backwoods home magazine has a book on canning and a ton of articles.

freeze in zip lock bags (so they lay flat) put the bag in a container in case so it does not leak while freezing or thawing.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Put jug in freezer


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Txyogagirl said:


> Where do u live? I would b scared to eat eggs that cost .45cents  those poor cows


Especially considering how much time for a cow to lay just one egg!


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Today, WI has only 1/3rd as many cows as it had 50 yrs ago, but produces 10x as much milk-- better nutrition; better genetics.

110 yrs ago, there were a dozen manufacturers of automobiles in the US-- 2-4 guys hammering out sheet metal by hand in the old shed, turning out a few cars each year. Then H.Ford developed the assembly line and 10s of thousands of vehicles could be built in a year at the low price of mass production....That's where the dairy industry stands today-- resisting the inevitable & necessary change in the paradigm.

An injustice: a box of corn flakes sells for $5 a throw in the PigglyWiggly and they can get 50 boxes out of one bushel of corn-- for which the farmer gets <$4- most of that overhead.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Forcast said:


> Prices all over the place. This time of year I start gathering snowed in food. Any good ways to freeze milk?


Doesnt help you as it isnt cheap milk, but I found the lactase treated milk ("lactose free") freezes quite well compared to regular milk. You just thaw and shake and good as it was before it was frozen. I have feeling it was more how it was processed than it was being lactase treated. I had to buy it for one elderly cat that stopped eating, except she would drink milk. Had to be lactose free as adult cats are lactose intolerant and this was going to be pretty much only thing she ate, not just some occasional treat.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

shawnlee said:


> I don't consider people who raise 500 thousand chickens in a 200x200 building farmers...….or ones that milk 1000 cows at a time on machines.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK, I watched the collection of abscesses. How in the world do you connect this to large dairies? I think some (all?) of these clips are third world. I wish you could actually visit a dozen commercial dairies or a dozen egg laying facility.
You can think that all small dairies have always healthy animals in healthy conditions and you can believe that large dairies are chock full of unhealthy suffering cows. But you'd still be wrong.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Forcast said:


> Prices all over the place. This time of year I start gathering snowed in food. Any good ways to freeze milk?


If I were snowed in, I'd put up with dry milk. Long shelf life and not dependent on the freezer.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

If you reconstitute dry milk with boiling water it mixes and tastes just fine after cooling.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Eggs at Meijers, $1.58. But organic free range eggs are $6.49. Milk is $1.79 a gallon. Organic milk is $6.09. Almond (nut juice) milk is $4.49 a gallon.
Gasoline ranges from $2.54 at Sam's Club East Lansing to $3.39 in Mackinac City Citgo. All of it comes from the Marathon refinery near Detroit.
Bottled water, gallons, $.89, $ 1.49 and $1.59.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Forcast said:


> Prices all over the place. This time of year I start gathering snowed in food. Any good ways to freeze milk?


Put it in a cold place, at least below 32 degrees. Be sure to leave a bit of head space in the container as will will expand when it freezes.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I have had good luck storing excess milk for later use by using pigs. The stuff on the shelf is cheap, but the out of date stuff is even cheaper. Remember, the stuff is so cheap that not only can they afford to sell it for two dollars a gallon, they can sell it for $2 and throw some of it away without getting a dime for it. If I were a dairy farmer I would be looking into planting some almond trees. Irrigate them with milk from the store.


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## 4tu (Jul 24, 2018)

I like my own canned milk, as I use maybe a quart at most a week, and may go a few weeks using none at all. I do keep small tins and powdered so if there is a problem I have a few months worth.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

haypoint said:


> OK, I watched the collection of abscesses. How in the world do you connect this to large dairies? I think some (all?) of these clips are third world. I wish you could actually visit a dozen commercial dairies or a dozen egg laying facility.
> You can think that all small dairies have always healthy animals in healthy conditions and you can believe that large dairies are chock full of unhealthy suffering cows. But you'd still be wrong.


 That's one vets videos from his job, I think he is Canada and most of them are from large steer operations or feed lots.

I just threw that in as a example of what can be seen in large production operations....he has more videos on just his daily vet travels as a cattle operation vet...usually several bloated dead ones each day from a host of ailments. I believe the beef operations in Canada have way more strict oversight than here, so it stands to reason it is probably much the same as here, only we are much larger.


It was more of a justification video for my unrealistic hardline stand on giant live stock operations.

I know most of those places are just ran by people like you and me who care about producing a quality product, just on a large scale. I also understand they are strictly inspected and regulated and produce crazy amounts of product that is clean and safe......if we just looked at the numbers, the chances are probably the least you will receive a substandard product when dealing with a large scale operation.

I also believe it is probably more likely that a bad batch might get passed a smaller operation and I would guess by the numbers it is far more likely the person with one or 2 home cows is most at risk.

My opinion on large scale...well, more like mega scale livestock operations is based less on product quality or even animal conditions quality.....but there have been some pretty bad ones documented , I am more biased
on the business side/ sustainable side of it, with a little bit based on quality and a little bit on the animal conditions and partlyon the environmental aspects.


This video kind of covers my stance/angst on large scale operations..…while covering more than large scale operations and rather long winded in respect to large operations, it does highlight the problems I have with it and offers insight in to why huge operations are maybe not the best option. They will certainly always be needed, but maybe a lot more smaller scale augmentation could be beneficial , there certainly is a place for both.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

shawnlee said:


> My opinion on large scale...well, more like mega scale livestock operations is based less on product quality or even animal conditions quality.....but there have been some pretty bad ones documented , I am more biased
> on the business side/ sustainable side of it, with a little bit based on quality and a little bit on the animal conditions and partlyon the environmental aspects.


When a 747 falls out of thee sky, it is world wide news. But far more deaths are from cars. If I have 13,000 milking cows and you have 13, I would expect to have a thousand times more everything. The large dairies I have visited are multi-million dollar operations with nutritionists and on staff veterinarians that insure the problems associated with cattle are kept far safer than smaller operations. They have facilities and equipment that stems problems before they start. I have been on hundreds of small beef and dairy operations and most are underfunded and struggle due to the economies of scale.
It would be foolish to take the extreme stance that every large operation is perfect and every small operation is a pit of suffering, just as the reverse is true.
But in Michigan, most of the large dairies are Dutch owned and operated and set a high standard. The large egg operations include Herbrick's and are probably the "Cadillac" of egg production. Your experiences may differ.
I listened to your posted video about some guy complaining about somebody critical to his operation. There is no arguing that a 10,000 hog farrow to finish pork operation produces pork more efficiently than a thousand guys pasturing ten pigs. When I see the "moon scape" method of "pastured pork" I have serious questions on a video that has open soil on a hillside as a pert of their background. Most modern farmers have made great strides in reducing soil erosion.
This might seem confusing, but I support small farms and encourage the creation of customers that appreciate buying local. But I don't see the need to unjustly criticize large operations. I'll stand against the small farmer that claims their eggs are fresher than store bought, when I know that the eggs in my supermarket fell out of a hen less than 24 hours earlier and I know the eggs at the Farmer's Market are a week's collection.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

It might not have came thru clearly, but I agree with what you are saying.....

Like most opinions and biases , mine is not based on logic ,...I simply do not like huge operations.

Look at the whole free range and grass fed garbage that is marketed in the stores, another example of being biased or border line manipulation of the facts....and people buy it/ eat it up.

The over all point in the video....its hard to get a perspective from just one slice of 20 or so videos that tie together......is that huge farms have massive overheads and such small margins that minor fluctuations in market are life and death situations. They also produce, albeit it a safe and nutritional product, a rather plain and bland product and its whats on the .99 cent to $1.99 rack in most stores.

People are now becoming concerned with quality as in flavor......I will save the nasty yukky soybean feed issue on meat quality for another discussion......they are also becoming more concerned with the conditions the animal is raised in.

I can verify first hand that pasture raised pork and true free ranged chicken produce a much better product in flavor for both meat and eggs......it is easy to spot visually in the product and easy to taste the difference.

As by example of the craft brewed style beers.....people are willing to pay for a better product and while a nasty can of Budweiser is perfectly healthy and will get you loaded, the taste is nasty and run of the mill flavor.


As was pointed out in the video, smaller local operations are effected very little to none from the current pork situation and in the end, they could all be sent to freezer camp and no big deal. A huge operation would likely go bankrupt,have to lay off a bunch of employees etc etc...a huge deal to say the least.

Maybe these huge operations are not the best business model any more....lots of state programs right now are promoting small local agriculture and even bending/making new more lax rules to support that. 


While this is getting down to specifics in just pig operations, one thing touched on in the video was the guy talking about the huge operation even had workers basically going in thru clean room decon showers to protect the delicate animals that have been bred for captivity that a worker coming in that was not deconed could cause thousands to die off. These large operations are now being recognized as the reason we have very low tolerance fragile animals that require clean room conditions from the worker and load of antibiotics.....which are also now starting to develop a resistance to these meds from over use.


Its a huge subject with a very diversified impact...…...While there is no shortage of people lining up for the cheap mega scale food, there are plenty lining up for the quality stuff too......one consumer base is growing while the other is declining.

Even the industry is starting to come around to understand, these mega scale places are not the future and not the best overall. They were great to produce massive amounts of safe food at a reasonable cost.....but the downsides are more in todays world than the upsides.

I have no problem with large scale operations, they produce a safe product at a reasonable cost...…..and there will always be a need for cheap bulk food for the masses, which at our current state of things is the best option. Just look at all the people willing to shovel fast food down their gullet......I am more concerned now with quality than quantity and consumers are also starting to go that direction.

Just look at the grass fed beef crowd...…….however misguided they are......because there are no beef cattle that have not eaten tons of grass, they are finished on grain because it gives a much better flavorful product......nice marbling and flavor and texture. There is a reason Wagyu beef commands a huge price and people love it, its a much better product......it is no safer or more nutritional than regular mega farm beef...…..but if nutrition was the end of the story we could all eat the slop served in the matrix movie as it meets all the nutritional needs and is safe.


I get both all sides of the issue....I just have a personal preference and opinion on which side I like...….that does not make the other side evil or bad....


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

These mega`s are just not my preference …...lots of arguments can be made as to which is better based on tons of different perspectives.





























The above are huge mega factories of bulk food.


See the difference below......while you might not like some mud and erosion, the pigs love it and seek it out when in the wild.




























A pigs favorite place to be.....




















Or this...….I see a difference.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

shawnlee said:


> People are now becoming concerned with quality as in flavor......I will save the nasty yukky soybean feed issue on meat quality for another discussion......they are also becoming more concerned with the conditions the animal is raised in.


But in the video you presented, he mentioned the $30 a pound bacon from pigs on a peanut diet. You want that, but object to a soybean? Animal comfort is a complex issue. Too often we think animals seek what humans seek. Cage free hens seems better than caged, to me. But when mor hend die out of cages than when housed in cages, it makes me wonder. When my horses prefer to stand outside in a snow storm than go into a clean dry stall, I must realize my comfort is not theirs.


shawnlee said:


> Look at the whole free range and grass fed garbage that is marketed in the stores, another example of being biased or border line manipulation of the facts....and people buy it/ eat it up.


People want safe healthy food. Few can research every detail of every product. So we get "gluten-free" labels on products that never had gluten, "Non-GMO" on products that never were GMO, "hormone-free" on products that never had added hormones. In many cases there is no difference between products sold in stores and those at a Farmers Market. It is up to the small businessman to create the aura of difference for their products, to create that demand and support elevated prices. Sometimes it is real, sometimes it is created/imagined. But when we resort to deceptive phrases or create unfounded biases against commercial products, we are no better than the grocer that sells "pasture raised" beef, that also was finished on corn, like 95% of all beef.
























shawnlee said:


> Even the industry is starting to come around to understand, these mega scale places are not the future and not the best overall. They were great to produce massive amounts of safe food at a reasonable cost.....but the downsides are more in todays world than the upsides.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

I agree, its more complex than one instance or criteria...…

OMG is that pig froze solid...…..


I do not want anything, I am just discussing things...in the video notice the chuckle about peanut finished and 30 bucks a pound...……

For as many animals as the mega operations house they are remarkably clean......as opposed to the picture you posted of that poor animal wading thru mud to get possibly molded food out of that piglet sized feeder.

However we might perceive that picture, the pig might be happy about it, we tend to attach human emotions and needs to animals, when they usually share neither with us. I might have a mud wallow like that, but would not have the food in it and that electric fence might not be in the best place...lol, for the pig or the farmer.

I have no problem with the soybeans, but they do yield a poor product compared with other proteins in the form of lots of unsaturated fats in the fat. Easily recognized during butchering.... A good butcher that has butchered both a few times can tell easily that the pig was finished/raised on soybeans......it can be mitigated a little if they are taken away from finishing.

But it still imparts a flavor among other negative things...….

I have ate and will continue to eat plenty of store bought mega farm raised pork, but there is a difference.

I think in lot of these cases the animals happiness is used as a excuse for the the farmers happiness or in most these cases whats refered to as modern home steaders who have at the most 10 to 20 pigs.....usually way under 10, they feel better about not confining them, so they justify it by saying the animal is happier,,,,...

I have seen many pigs on pasture and they do run all over and seem pretty happy.....they are surprisingly fast and active..lol

I don't condem the mega farms as evil...I simply do not care for them......more power to them if it works for them and there is certainly a need/market for that product.

Like most things in life it is perspective based and comes from what a person knows or understands...….if I was to work on, manage or own a mega farm, my feelings might change as my understanding and perspective changes. In 20 years from now, I might be all for them....who knows.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

haypoint said:


> View attachment 69596
> View attachment 69598
> View attachment 69598


I Couldn't help but notice the ten or so inches of lost topsoil in the pic of those nice hog wallow raised pigs. Now multiply that amount of soil erosion that would be caused by a ten thousand hog per week operation. Ten thousand pigs per week is nothing when compared to the demand in in my state alone, much less our nation.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I Couldn't help but notice the ten or so inches of lost topsoil in the pic of those nice hog wallow raised pigs. Now multiply that amount of soil erosion that would be caused by a ten thousand hog per week operation. Ten thousand pigs per week is nothing when compared to the demand in in my state alone, much less our nation.


Not sure the point? Please explain how you connect soil erosion to a large scale hog confinement operation? If you are thinking that expanding pastured pigs by a thousand percent turning up thousands of acres of soil, creating moonscapes stretching for miles and turning every pond to an unmanaged manure lagoon, I think that's irresponsible land use.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

haypoint said:


> Not sure the point? Please explain how you connect soil erosion to a large scale hog confinement operation? If you are thinking that expanding pastured pigs by a thousand percent turning up thousands of acres of soil, creating moonscapes stretching for miles and turning every pond to an unmanaged manure lagoon, I think that's irresponsible land use.


Yep, that was my point. Pigs on concrete do not destroy the land. That may be the reason so many farmers raise them in confined quarters.


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## 4tu (Jul 24, 2018)

Erosion on a single piece of property is not that big an issue unless it washes away to a river or creek and 40 hogs over a large place is not destructive. The proof here is feral hogs, these bad boys move in and wallow out a piece and move on. The land is not able to wash off so the top soil stays in the area so discing and dragging and replanting legumes for nitrogen and other crops to bring in deer and for the cattle to graze and the cattle and horses are augmented with feed, the land can thrive on this it's not doom and gloom.

Small operations have more control and oversight of their land, land requires maintenance. The topography predicates the soil conservation means and, with today's analysis it can be known how to augment the soil season to season. I can say that enough manure and proper rotation of crops and the proper crops augments the soil fairly well. still additional fertilizer may be needed.

I jyst do not want large operations dictating to small private operations and then I don't want a person flying under the radar and calling themselves a small operation and choking creeks and rivers with sludge making a stink hole or annoying the neighboring property owners. Each soil type has it's challenges with more ladies and gentlemen turning to farming and ranching on small scale or hobby farming good information and local resources will help them find their center.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

4tu said:


> The proof here is feral hogs, these bad boys move in and wallow out a piece and move on.


Michigan is fairly new to the feral hog thing. But with the many ponds, lakes, streams and rivers in Michigan, lots of shore erosion, killed fish and pollution results. Plus Michigan has lots of orchards and crop land that wild hogs destroy. Few large tracts of land are without erodible



4tu said:


> The land is not able to wash off so the top soil stays in the area so discing and dragging and replanting legumes for nitrogen and other crops to bring in deer and for the cattle to graze and the cattle and horses are augmented with feed, the land can thrive on this it's not doom and gloom.


Areas that pastured hogs would wallow does not suddenly become crop land or pasture. It just remains ruined wetlands.
segments.


4tu said:


> I jyst do not want large operations dictating to small private operations and then I don't want a person flying under the radar and calling themselves a small operation and choking creeks and rivers with sludge making a stink hole or annoying the neighboring property owners.


While we agree that small operations can often operate under the radar, I don't see how a large confinement operation would dictate anything. I often hear small, hobby farmers complain about large full time operations, but in truth, the tiny impact of the small operations is of no interest to modern commercial agriculture.


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## 4tu (Jul 24, 2018)

haypoint said:


> the tiny impact of the small operations is of no interest to modern commercial agriculture.


I was commenting on the state and federal imposition of rules and laws, If you remember there was a senator that wanted to make it illegal to garden in certain states you cannot catch water in barrels. All of us have to be aware that there are both commercial and legal attempts to subvert land owners rights using complaints as the legal lever to put forward their agenda.

No one in America owns their land (n a rare few do but that would take more time to explain) so as new age share croppers we need to be watchful to what the master is doing.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

Milk here is $2.99 a gallon


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

https://www.splendidtable.org/story/inside-the-factory-farm-where-97-of-us-pigs-are-raised

150,000 to 2 million pigs per commercial setting has a heavy impact.


How is this...…









Any different than this ?










When it comes to the land/topsoil.

It sure has to be better than this...…From the linked article above...…




*'This is the way pigs are raised'*
*
LRK*: Let's talk about where that supermarket pork chop comes from. You researched quite a few places that process pork. You talked to many people who had firsthand experience. What did you see and what did you learn?

*BE*: Perhaps my greatest education was one day in central Iowa, where I visited a single pig farmer who raised 150,000 pigs a year in 40 low-slung, warehouse-like confinement barns. We spent the day together.

Before we went into these barns, we both had to strip naked and take a thorough shampoo and shower, leaving our clothes behind. We passed through into this sterile zone to prevent disease from getting in.

The most memorable sight was when I went into a low, dark barn and saw 1,500 sows. These huge animals spent their entire lives inside metal cages that were so small the pigs couldn't even turn around. Their sides pressed out. They were like fat people on the middle seat of an airplane. Their sides pressed out through the bars. This is the way they lived their whole life, just producing piglets. They were like machines.

The smell hit me viscerally. It was like nothing I'd ever smelled. What I was breathing was ammonia and hydrogen sulfide. Those are poison gases.

*LRK*: Coming from the waste?

*BE*: Coming from manure, which is held in vast pits directly below where the pigs live. It would be the equivalent of filling your basement with sewage from your toilet and emptying your basement once a year.

These gases would kill the pigs, except there are huge fans on the ends of these barns that look like jet engines blowing that air out.

*LRK*: How do they survive under these conditions?


*BE*: They're basically kept alive just long enough to reach slaughter weight. The fans keep them going, but much of it is because these pigs are fed constant, low-level antibiotics just to prevent them from getting sick. It'd be like you waking up every morning and taking an antibiotic even if you weren't sick. That enables them to live long enough to reach slaughter weight at 6 months of age.

*LRK*: This is the way commercial pork is produced?

*BE*: This is the way 97 percent of the pigs in this country today live. They never see the light of day. They never set foot on anything but a bare, hard floor. They breathe that poisoned air 24/7.

*LRK*: Aren't there laws against this?

*BE*: There would be laws against this if you did this to a dog. But no, there are no laws. This is all perfectly legal. In fact, it's state of the art. This is the way pigs are raised.

*LRK*: You talked about someone you met who was actually arrested for reporting this kind of situation, reporting what went on in these confinement areas.

*BE*: Yes. It was a man [Kenny Hughs] who lived in north central Missouri and worked at a farm that raised 2 million pigs a year. Imagine that.

He was fine with it until one day he encountered a sow that had gotten too old and had reached the end of her life. The attendants had simply pulled her out of one of those stalls, put another sow in, and left her lying in an alleyway in the barn to die. She couldn't walk. She was being given no food or water.

This fellow came back a couple of days later. She was in the same place but weaker still. He finally went to the head of the barn and said, "Do something about the sow. You can't do that." The guy told him to mind his own business.

That just infuriated this fellow. He went out to Walmart and bought a couple of those disposable cameras. He took pictures inside the barn of piles of dead piglets left there rotting; sows with enormous tumors the size of soccer balls on their shoulders; sows with open, gaping sores. It was horrific. Then he quit.


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## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

Forcast said:


> At Save A Lot eggs 45 cents a doz milk $1.29 gal. Milk at Food Lion $3.58 eggs 1.70


My I wish we had prices like that here! Eggs here are anywhere from $3.00 to $5.00 a dozen. Milk runs from $6.00 to $8.00 for 4 liters which is about 160 ounces .


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

4tu said:


> I was commenting on the state and federal imposition of rules and laws, If you remember there was a senator that wanted to make it illegal to garden in certain states you cannot catch water in barrels. All of us have to be aware that there are both commercial and legal attempts to subvert land owners rights using complaints as the legal lever to put forward their agenda.
> 
> No one in America owns their land (n a rare few do but that would take more time to explain) so as new age share croppers we need to be watchful to what the master is doing.


The government has little or no concern in small hobby or back yard agriculture. Very little interest in small farms. There may be times when safety regulations aimed at the larger impact of big ag, impact everyone. In attempts to see where government can be most effective, a survey is sent out, Historically, small farmers don't respond and the result is under representation.
Overall, the government has little impact on small farms. Overall, big ag doesn't care about backyard hobby farms. I laugh at folks that get all excited that the government is against them or big ag is worried about the competition of the small farmer. Just nonsense.
But we are getting a bit far afield in this discussion on the historic low prices of eggs and milk.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

shawnlee said:


> This fellow came back a couple of days later. She was in the same place but weaker still. He finally went to the head of the barn and said, "Do something about the sow. You can't do that." The guy told him to mind his own business.


I favor farrowing crates. What is in this story is gestation crates. While a sow cannot turn around, their bellies aren't pressed against the bars. They are wide enough so the sow can lay down, completely stretched out. There is a safe place for the piglets, eliminating the squashed babies common in "nesting" setups. I have been in many hog confinement structures wit a pit below. They have air handling systems and very slight hog manure smells. They get pumped and flushed monthly. The smell of the field, between the time it is spread and when it is plowed under, under 24 hours, is worse than in the buildings. I find it hard to believe that a farm with showers and Tyvec coveralls wouldn't also have a state of the art air circulation system. Hogs are generally on concrete that is formed with narrow slots for the manure to fall through. No mention of the majority of the pigs that are growing that aren't in gestation crates.
It makes no economic sense to leave a sow in the aisle. They have value, about $.40 a pound. Rare that a sow would "go down". As a sow gets older, she gets larger and litters get smaller. At that time they go to auction or are under contract to go to Bob Evan's. 
I love your "pastured pork" photo. No idea what they are growing with those hilled rows. But most of agriculture in the US is now no till, saving many tons of topsoil per acre, per year.
But we are off track to this discussion on the low cost of milk and eggs due to over supply.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

lmrose said:


> My I wish we had prices like that here! Eggs here are anywhere from $3.00 to $5.00 a dozen. Milk runs from $6.00 to $8.00 for 4 liters which is about 160 ounces .


Canada government controls the production of farm products. That helps keep Canadian farmers in business, but prevents expansion. So, when Canadians cross the border to shop, they stock up on a couple turkeys, eggs, milk and gasoline.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2256452794576139



"
Tonight was my last night milking cows on my family’s fourth generation dairy farm. For those of you who don’t know, the dairy industry is really struggling rig...ht now, and I pray to god it turns around soon. Growing up this way has taught me so many valuable lessons that I will always cherish. As we were milking tonight my dad was tearing up and mumbled “55 years.” 55 years my dad has lived each day of his life with these girls. It’s hard. It’s hard to see something you love so much come to an end.

Milking with my dad is where we, as a family, are the closest. Every Christmas we all worked together to get done before opening presents. The cows were always first, and this is one of the hardest goodbyes.







❤

A chapter is ending, but a new adventure is waiting."


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I hate hearing this news and don't have the words...... Perhaps a moment of silence will say it better.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

With no relief in sight, low milk prices here to stay, hundreds of dairies cannot ride through this money losing period.
https://www.uppermichiganssource.co...loss-of-dairy-farms-since-2013-493568481.html


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

soft serve .. get a soft serve "ice cream" machine, make buckets of soft serve and keep that frozen. thaw and use like milk..
.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

shawnlee said:


> I don't consider people who raise 500 thousand chickens in a 200x200 building farmers...….or ones that milk 1000 cows at a time on machines.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



this video is from Cody Creelman who is a vet in Canadian. He does some great videos of his life as a vet for cattle, both beef and dairy. Really doesn’t have anything to do with industrial animals. Just large farms in Canadian. I look at his video as farmers taking care of their livestock.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

haypoint said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2256452794576139
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sad and happy at the same time for you, Haypoint. After 5 days without having to milk those @#$% cows, are you starting to see the good side of this change?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

doc- said:


> I'm sad and happy at the same time for you, Haypoint. After 5 days without having to milk those @#$% cows, are you starting to see the good side of this change?


It wasn't a video of me. Just typical of the widespread struggle in the dairy business.
If you think after 5 days of not milking cows, after four generations, you really don't have a clue to what is involved here. Now, I'm sad for you.


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

HermitJohn said:


> Especially considering how much time for a cow to lay just one egg!


We all know cows don’t lay eggs  I don’t get your point I’m sorry.


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

Forcast said:


> Prices all over the place. This time of year I start gathering snowed in food. Any good ways to freeze milk?


U can just pour about one glass full out then freeze in the original gallon to allow room for expansion. U could also freeze in jars if you want smaller quantities. I’m a nursing mom and use 4oz mason jars. I don’t see why it wouldn’t work with pint jars or any other size just don’t fill to the top


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

someone mentioned powdered milk..
if you use powdered milk, as we did when our kids were little.. we would mix up a couple of quarts and then pour it from about head high into a kettle on the table, do this a few times and it aerates it .. made it drinkable even for me ..
as for grass raised pork.. there are times I cannot tolerate the smell of pork cooking because it smells so much like a pig barn.. this is referring to super market pork.. the best pork I ever ate was in Germany. I had the good fortune to be stationed in the center of the
"Black Forest".. the gasthaus we frequented was owned by a huntsman.. He harvested wild boar and rae deer.
served the meat in his establishment. 
any animal that can run free in fresh air will taste better than any commercially grown meat. no matter how humanely they are kept..


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

haypoint said:


> It wasn't a video of me. Just typical of the widespread struggle in the dairy business.
> If you think after 5 days of not milking cows, after four generations, you really don't have a clue to what is involved here. Now, I'm sad for you.


You took my post the wrong way. I commiserate with you. Dairy Farming has got to be the hardest of all ag pathways: the schedule is unrelenting. No days, even half-days off. You have to love it to keep on doing it....the one consolation of giving it up is that at least you don't have to do the hard work anymore. I guess we might look at death itself like that too.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

doc- said:


> You took my post the wrong way. I commiserate with you. Dairy Farming has got to be the hardest of all ag pathways: the schedule is unrelenting. No days, even half-days off. You have to love it to keep on doing it....the one consolation of giving it up is that at least you don't have to do the hard work anymore. I guess we might look at death itself like that too.


Maybe I did tak it the wrong way. I guess it is a lot like death. Like being in love, caring for someone for 60 years, then their health fails and that caring has fewer and fewer happy days, until the day they die. Then five days after the funeral, as you stumble around the silent empty house, in an off handed way, doc- tries to cheer you up with, " Boy, what a relief, you don't have to care for your spouse anymore, must be a great relief."
Dairy farming has always been tough. Long hours, huge investment, low returns. Now, with the continued drop in milk price, the long hours and huge investment become payless. Often the family held hopes for a good year to balance the bad, but the good never comes. Satisfying the bank and selling out can leave two or three generations without a place to live or funds for retirement.
But, on the bright side, grocery stores are selling milk for about the price of bottled water.


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## Grey Mare (Jun 28, 2013)

So sorry Haypoint...for you and your family...I grew up in a farming community in Nevada and saw some 4th and 5th generation farmers fold up because the kids just did not want to do what their parents did year in and day out, so they sold the acreage. Across the street from where I grew up, saw those beautiful fields of green alfalfa get sold, dug up and a community put there with a large stone fence surrounding it. I use to run in those fields in the summer, grew up with the farmer's kids, helped pull calves, watched them grow up...


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

That is one of the better endings for a dairy farm from what I have seen. Typically it is not uncommon for farmers to borrow money for equipment and upgrades, in the hope that better times are ahead. When those days never come the bank still wants their money. The tremendous pressure of a multi-generational family farm comes into play. You aren't only letting yourself down by thinking of doing the rational thing and stepping away from the money pit, you feel that you are betraying your ancestors. Bank foreclosures and auctions aren't the worst of it. Sometimes the strain is more than the farmer can bear. Have known several to take their life. One guy told all the help to take the day off, shot all the cows and then himself. The concept of agriculture as a family business is a thing of the past. Raise food for your family, don't worry about feeding the world. It is full of fickle, ungrateful rapscallions anyway. Let them all starve.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

we live eight miles from town. been here for about 50 years. all dairy farms .. since we moved here, the farms just quit one after another.. there are only about a half dozen left ..
where I grew up on the other side of the same town, I drive through there with my wife and say, I helped make hay here, I worked on a threshing crew of every farm from the edge of town to five miles out. there is only one farm left on that side of town.. plenty of houses.
one field I made hay on is now completely covered with full grown trees.. a restaurant sits on the edge of the river right where we used to go skinny dipping..
just musing..


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> we live eight miles from town. been here for about 50 years. all dairy farms .. since we moved here, the farms just quit one after another.. there are only about a half dozen left ..
> where I grew up on the other side of the same town, I drive through there with my wife and say, I helped make hay here, I worked on a threshing crew of every farm from the edge of town to five miles out. there is only one farm left on that side of town.. plenty of houses.
> one field I made hay on is now completely covered with full grown trees.. a restaurant sits on the edge of the river right where we used to go skinny dipping..
> just musing..


I just hate when good skinny dipping spots get disrupted! So many good memories!


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

Me too, just for spite I should get what is left of our old friends from back then and go skinny dipping where the diners can see us. try to shake that out of your head. LOL


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Dam haypoint that’s all I can say just dam


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