# Crops to fuel - biodiesel, alcohol or methane?



## pengyou (Jun 22, 2009)

I have wanted my own homestead since I was 13 years old. One of the things I have wanted to do was to create my own fuel. As I understand, there are 3 kinds of fuel that can be created - biodiesel (or just plain veggie oil), alcohol and some kind of gaseous fuel - methane? I would like to be able to fuel a passenger car, a small tractor, a generator, a stove, and provide emergency heat for the home. I would make a rough estimate that I will need the equivalent of 60 gallons of gasoline each month.

Has anyone performed a thorough study of this decision? By thorough, I mean to consider:

* the cost of converting or obtaining the machines used. Gasoline engines in cars, tractors or generators can be relatively easily converted to use alcohol or methane. Many diesel engines can be converted to run on straight veggie oil. What is the cost of converting each? What is the relative cost of obtaining each kind of car? 

* what is the cost of making each kind of fuel? Assume that I can produce the raw materials needed? Safest to make? Are there any legal issues?

* I am willing to allocate 2 acres to the purpose of "growing my fuel", as well as a shed about 10' by 10' for the processing equipment. Can my 2 acres provide enough of one of these fuels to meet my needs?


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I don't know a whole lot about what you are asking, but I do know that if you want to make ethanol to run your car on, you are going to have to get permits and have Unkle Sam all up in your face over it... That would cause me to rule that option out.. 

I've been thinking about an alternative for myself.. Compressed Natural Gas.. I get free NG off a well behind my place, and I've sort of casually been looking into what it would take to compress and store it for running things like the tractor on.. ... I can already run a generator from it if I want.. since I can put in a stationary low pressure line where it would sit.. 

Just another option for you if you have access to NG..


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Like simi said, move to a state and buy property with free gas preferably one with one of the older leases allowing unlimited gas. It's easier to convert an older carbureted gasoline engine to multifuel than one of the later computer managed vehicles. 

You can use waste cooking oil to run a diesel. If you want to grow your own you'll need enough land to grow something like canola, harvest the seed, then run it through a screw press to extract the oil.

It's way cheaper to scrounge free cooking oil from restaurants and filter that.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Now if I was real smart, I'd be pulling me some drip gas for the generators and such... No idea how much drip is coming off the well.. but I do know it's drained every so often from the separator to the oil tanks.. but I have a feeling the owner wouldn't be happy with me if I was taking the drip.. 

I'd love to own that well.. the oil coming out of it smells like gasoline, and looks like used oil watered down with a whole lot of gas... I've been using it to light my bon fires with..  Been using it to soak my outdoor padlocks in too, along with my saw chains.. great stuff..


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

2 acres is not even close to supplying that much fuel. If you go the alcohol route it would only supply about 5 weeks at 60 gallons per week. It's even worse than that as alcohol only has about 2/3 the BTU's per gallon as gasoline so your going to need even more.



> ...For example, if you can grow 65 bushels per acre of wheat, which will produce 2.56 gallons of alcohol per bushel, the yield will be 166.4 gallons per acre...


http://www.homestead.org/LynnDoxon/MakingAlcoholFuel.htm


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Mythbusters ran 190 proof shine in a bunch of cars.. the newer the car, the better it did, but they still didn't do all that great.. the carburated cars would hardly run on it..


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I run my truck on a veggie oil -blend- . . . . .no modifications what so ever to the truck.
We are fortunate to have a good source of used veggie oil . . . . .but it takes a bunch of effort and $$$ to highly filter it and then blend it . . . no free lunch there.

before going any further on the Bio Diesel idea read up on the extreme danger involved in handling Methanol . . . . . .it is a killer if you do it wrong......... we do NOT use Methanol.........
Also running an engine on Alcohol is full of fuel system problems...no free lunch.

That is correct two acres will not give you enough feed stock for all that you will need . . as stated.

keep thinking...........


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Methanol is a real bad idea too... it's very corrosive, you'd have to pretty much rebuild your fuel system to handle it, and it's not easy to start a cold car with it.. 

I've been around friends that ran it in their race cars, and I still get some from a friend to use in my NG separator just before my regulator to clean out the water... 

It's not stuff you really want to mess with if you don't have to. Not only can the fumes take you over really fast, but if you ever light it on fire, you'll not know it until it's too late because you can't see it burn... 

And to top it off, it's far from cheap.. 

For Methane, you'd have to find a way to compress and store it, then you're talking about an expensive tank and system to install into your car to burn it..

There's reasons you don't see gas cars run on much other than gasoline, or a blend of ethanol and gas... the costs of the fuel and the systems you'd have to install into the car is just too great.. Even converting a car to run on NG is no cheap endeavor..


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

pengyou,

A LOT of folks would like to do the same thing. The problem is* it takes a lot of effort *to produce the energy of 60 gallons of gasoline. Most people have no clue what a bargain gasoline is at 3-4 bucks/gallon.

Even in White Wolf's quoted figures above, that only allows for gross production. You have to take out the labor, fuel required to farm, harvest and process the grain into alcohol before you get to the NET figures.

You'd probably be better off to look at wood gassifiers that can turn wood, especially scrap wood, into a gas that can be burned directly in internal combustion engines. These were used during WW2 when gasoline was in short supply to the civilian market.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Jim-mi said:


> I run my truck on a veggie oil -blend- . . . . .no modifications what so ever to the truck.
> We are fortunate to have a good source of used veggie oil . . . . .but it takes a bunch of effort and $$$ to highly filter it and then blend it . . . no free lunch there.
> 
> before going any further on the Bio Diesel idea read up on the extreme danger involved in handling Methanol . . . . . .it is a killer if you do it wrong......... we do NOT use Methanol.........
> ...


I have no idea why folks mess with biodiesel. The local barber has been running a Dodge with a Cummins on straight filtered vegetable oil for years. He has a sample in his shop to show folks. It's a gold color. Other than that, it's clear. 

If you're going to run alcohol in a carbureted vehicle, you either need to enlarge the jets by 40% or install jets that flow 40% more fuel to get similar performance to gasoline.


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## wrongwayrick (Nov 26, 2006)

If your property has pine trees you might want to look into turpentine as an
alternative fuel


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## fullmetal (Nov 2, 2013)

wow! this is a really pessimistic bunch here. after a lot of time looking into both ethanol and biodiesel i would say that both could be done on two acres with careful planning. for diesel i would run straight plant oil (possibly sunflower) but there are a lot of possibilities and you would need to pick one that responded well to the place your growing. as for the press you could build a great one for around $1200. 

my personal preference however is ethanol, Jerusalem artichokes and sugar beets respond well to square foot (no till) planting methods. this would only need about 1 acre but you would have to hand harvest. and both are some of the best ethanol producers by mass that will grow outside the tropics. i think ethanol is also one of the easiest to make as well as being useful as a antiseptic and cooking fuel. as for the bit about it having a lower btu than gas thats true but irrelevant since it has a higher expansion ratio. a engine running straight ethanol can be run with a compression ratio of 18:1 thats half again what a gas engine runs resulting in higher fuel efficiency. if btus were all that mattered than a broken radiator would make your car run better. you do have to get a free license and prove your not drinking it but when all is done it often comes out to about $0.88 a gal + labor. even using 40% more volume than gas (which is offset if you raise the compression) that still comes out to the equivalent of $1.23/gal.


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## K.B. (Sep 7, 2012)

The book "Solargas", by David Hoye, is an interesting free read at the Soil and Health library.
http://www.soilandhealth.org/03sov/0302hsted/0302homested.html

As with about all things related to alternative energy, reducing the initial consumption and increasing efficiency is a big first step to making the switch feasible.

The ~160 proof "farm alcohol" discussed in the book at the link above is something I am interested in exploring in the future.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

From my own looking into stuff -
Methane - (Actually biogas, which is a combination of co2, methane and a little hydrogen) except maybe for a cooktop the amount of waste needed and temperature requirements make it a no go in most climates.
Biodiesel - as was pointed out, many engines are fine on just vegetable oil. That was the _intent_ of Diesel, the inventor.
Alcohol - too much potential of running afoul of the law. Not worth it.

However, I am not seeing mentioned woodgas and charcoal. Making charcoal is messy, but weight-wise it is decently energy dense. Charcoal burning buses and cars were common in Europe during WW II.


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## pengyou (Jun 22, 2009)

Thanks! Pessimism is good - optimism is good also. Both kinds of opinions are greatly appreciated. After quite a bit of searching I did find the following link: http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/hl/biofuels.html which puts sugar beets near the top at producing more than 600 gallons per acre, and on the oil spectrum, palm oil producing more than 500 gallons per acre but about the same energy load per acre. I am not that familiar with the legal aspect of producing alcohol, but IIRC some states allow up to 100 gallons per year to be produced per person, as long as it is not sold. After that I would have to get a license for a microbrewery, but if I were not selling the alcohol it seems that it would not be a big deal.
Looking simply at simplicity of conversion, some kind gaseous fuel and alcohol would be the easiest to implement - the gaseous being the most simple. Most stoves would run on it - though some might need new jets. Some refrigerators run on gas, while cars and generators would not be too difficult to convert, especially on older models and furnaces...well they would be a gas to convert  . Alcohol and gas vehicles...I believe that they can be set up to run as duel fuel vehicles, so if I were to go on a long time, topping off with gasoline would be an option. Veggie oil would require the purchase of a vehicle with a diesel engine, which limits the choice of a vehicle substantially. I have not bought a vehicle yet, so that might not be an insurmountable obstacle. It would work for generators but would be a bigger challenge on refrigerators, furnaces and stoves. (Note: I have yet to see any of these appliances that will work on veggie oil, but that does not mean that they exist.) Yes, homes can be heated with wood and other resources, which would be welcome. Energy efficient fridges can be purchased and run off of self produced electricity, so it can be a mix and matched solution. One thing that would make alternate fuels and transportation easier to deal with is if we were using steam or sterling engines. With either of these options, changing fuels would not require a whole new engine but rather a chance in the combustion and delivery system. It would still be work and an expense but would not require a completely new engine.

My conclusion here: as mentioned, making my own fuel would be a resource and time consuming task. I might be able to swing it for one kind of fuel, but I do not plan on setting up to make 2 or 3 kinds of fuel. The only exception to that is if, for example,methane is a natural by product of some other process. I appreciate the input and look forward to more.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

You haven't told us where you're looking to live. In WV and other states it's possible to buy property with rights to free gas. That's an easy way to obtain fuel. You'd need to look at the lease to see if there are any restrictions on the usage. You can always buy more than one vehicle for conversion. I'd lean toward an older Ford with a 6 cyl. 300 cid carbureted engine for conversion to a multifuel vehicle using natural gas or gasoline. If you want to run alcohol, change the carburetor jet. That would allow you to run either alcohol or natural gas.

If you're in an area with Chinese and fast food restaurants check into getting the used cooking oil. You can find gen 1 Dodges comparatively cheap if you don't need 4WD. The Cummins will run on straight vegetable oil (SVO) with no engine modifications. You'll need to add a heated pre-filter and heated tank for the SVO.

Running the Cummins on SVO is a way to save lots of money. The local barber is driving about 200 miles a day on free fuel to get back and forth to his barber shop.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

pengyou said:


> Thanks! ... I am not that familiar with the legal aspect of producing alcohol, but IIRC some states allow up to 100 gallons per year to be produced per person, as long as it is not sold. ...


That's 100 gallons of beer, wine, and mead. Reduction to increase alcohol by volume (distillation or freeze reduction) are not allowed without a license. There is also a 200 gallon per houshold limit on beer or wine as long as 2 or more legal age adults live in the household.

WWW


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

lets be neither pessimist, nor optimist, lets be realist. 2 acres? must be super fertilizer used. remember energy is neither created nor destroyed, just transferred. that means the quality of the soil has to be maintained, long term. 

being from a family with some history of first hand knowledge of moonshine, i can tell you its hard work and its a fed magnet... ATF ring any bells? absolutely no distillation can be done and i mean NO distillation, not an oz. without reams of paperwork and years of red tape. man, nothing is as easy as we want it to be,,,


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I'm sure thousands have tried to apply to distill their own fuel with no intentions of feeding it to any engine.... and I'm sure Unkle knows that, and seldom does give a license to distill for fuel... I know they do, but I'm sure it's a low percentage of the applications they accept and issue for..


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

And if you get caught the price of the ensuing hassle would have bought you thousands of gallons of gasoline.
The tyrant uncle sugar always wins . . . . .

round and round we go . . . . . . .


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## FarmerDavid (Jul 16, 2012)

Darren said:


> I have no idea why folks mess with biodiesel. The local barber has been running a Dodge with a Cummins on straight filtered vegetable oil for years. He has a sample in his shop to show folks. It's a gold color. Other than that, it's clear.
> 
> If you're going to run alcohol in a carbureted vehicle, you either need to enlarge the jets by 40% or install jets that flow 40% more fuel to get similar performance to gasoline.


There just isn't enough used veggie oil to go around is the problem. I talked to local resturants and all of them already have someone collecting theirs. 

We grow somewhere around 1000 acres of soybeans a year. I toyed with the idea of producing my own biodiesel with it. It just wasn't economical. The amount of beans required to produce what we needed was rediculous. Then the cost of the setup was prohibitive. There was a grant program for it a year or so ago and I did some serious research into it and determined it wasn't for us.


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## FarmerDavid (Jul 16, 2012)

ace admirer said:


> lets be neither pessimist, nor optimist, lets be realist. 2 acres? must be super fertilizer used. remember energy is neither created nor destroyed, just transferred. that means the quality of the soil has to be maintained, long term.
> 
> being from a family with some history of first hand knowledge of moonshine, i can tell you its hard work and its a fed magnet... ATF ring any bells? absolutely no distillation can be done and i mean NO distillation, not an oz. without reams of paperwork and years of red tape. man, nothing is as easy as we want it to be,,,


I might be wrong but I've always been told that in MO you can produce distiller spirits for your own consumption legally. It's a small amount, but big enough for personal consumption, but I've heard this from several people that I know.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Yes, Missouri is the only state that allows distilling for personal use.. but that don't mean the feds like it.. You can distill up to 200 gallons for personal use with no taxation or license required. Good luck if you try and the feds get a whiff of it..


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

The Missouri law is then in conflict with the federal law just like pot in Colorado and Washington.

WWW


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

If you're prepping for TSHTF, you'll need to grow a crop whether you're going to use vegetable oil or alcohol. In any case, I doubt the BATF is going to be paying you a visit after TSHTF. A test can be run on a legal basis for experience then scale it up if necessary.


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## FarmerDavid (Jul 16, 2012)

simi-steading said:


> Yes, Missouri is the only state that allows distilling for personal use.. but that don't mean the feds like it.. You can distill up to 200 gallons for personal use with no taxation or license required. Good luck if you try and the feds get a whiff of it..


Didn't realize it was the only state that allowed it. I don't do any distilling but its crossed my mind. Probably never happen though my wife wouldn't think much of it.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

FarmerDavid said:


> There just isn't enough used veggie oil to go around is the problem. I talked to local resturants and all of them already have someone collecting theirs.
> 
> We grow somewhere around 1000 acres of soybeans a year. I toyed with the idea of producing my own biodiesel with it. It just wasn't economical. The amount of beans required to produce what we needed was rediculous. Then the cost of the setup was prohibitive. There was a grant program for it a year or so ago and I did some serious research into it and determined it wasn't for us.


How where you going to extract the oil from the beans?


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## FarmerDavid (Jul 16, 2012)

Darren said:


> How where you going to extract the oil from the beans?


By crushing them. I was basically wanting to do it as a value added option for our soybeans. Thought that I could produce enough fuel from our beans to fuel our farm and sell the meal. They figures work out good for savings on fuel. I would basically be getting the fuel for free and selling the meal for what we get for the beans. The startup costs made it uneconomical. It would have taken forever or the fuel saving to have made up the startup costs. A smaller scale might work better but then it was alot of work for not much fuel. Even on a larger scale I don't think we would be able to produce enough fuel for our farm use and vehicle use through 1000 acres of beans.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

What type of equipment were you looking at for crushing the beans? Was it a screw extractor?


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Another option, if you want to explore something else, might be a series of solar panels that run a machine that will split hydrogen and oxygen from water. The hydrogen can be used for propulsion, heating, cooking and perhaps even in a fuel cell to produce electricity again.

There was a guy who did it all that I've seen video of. Can't remember who or where I saw it. But it's at least worth having a look. Keep your good growing dirt for food crops!


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Even if there was a Hydrogen unit available, storage is very problematic.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Jim-mi said:


> Even if there was a Hydrogen unit available, storage is very problematic.


Not sure what all the equipment this guy is using but the technology has been around for a while.

He didn't seem to think hydrogen storage was such a big deal. (?)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djg_l7cEtWg[/ame]

Then again, I've never seen it in person. It could all be a big hoax for all I know... ?


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Yes H2 engines are available. But short lived. How are you going to deal with hydrogen embrittlement? In both the tank and engine parts?

In case you've never heard of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

In an engine, H2 being the smallest molecule there is, is able to fill the pores in all metals. The expansion and contraction from heat enlarges the pores making this a bigger problem on engines. As the metal cools and the pores cannot contract as they are filled with hydrogen. Eventually the metal cracks.

In tanks, the pressure aids the hydrogen into the pores. Then a 30dF daily change is enough to destroy the tank in less then a year.

WWW


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Ok, guess it's all a hoax.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Hydrogen might be a bit too complicated now, but materials science is constantly progressing. I don't know if ceramics are subject to hydrogen embrittlement. Combustion turbines used in power plants have ceramic coated blades. That's a hostile environment and they survive, High pressure tank design has changed over the years. Can hydrogen be stored in a matrix like acetylene?

I still think the best choices for many is either running a diesel on waste oil or from oil you've pressed from a crop. For those with access to natural gas, Eaton's announcement of a compressor project with a target price of $2,500 represents a breakthrough. Current home units are north of $6,000.

Natural gas technology for vehicle fuel has been around for awhile and is proven. Adding NG to a carbureted engine isn't difficult. Tanks do have expiration dates. That can be beat by stockpiling extras.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

This H2 stuff has been around for quite some while . . . . .mostly in the Lab.
I don't dought that 'someone' has put it in a "car" . . . . .

Obviously they have not been able to solve enough problems to let it out into Joe Public's hands

Therefore my use of the word "problematic".


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## AVanarts (Jan 2, 2011)

Bellyman said:


> Not sure what all the equipment this guy is using but the technology has been around for a while.
> 
> He didn't seem to think hydrogen storage was such a big deal. (?)
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is real. What the guy is doing is pretty expensive, but the technology is out there.

In a previous life, 1995 to 2008, I worked as an analytical technician for a big multinational company that produced industrial gasses. I was in the part that sold gasses to the semiconductor industry and that included liquid Hydrogen. I tested it for ppb level contaminants.

Back then they had already developed the technology to run cars and buses on hydrogen fuel cells. Keep in mind this is not combustion engines but electric motors run by fuel cells that convert Hydrogen to electricity. Similar to the fuel cells used in space craft and the International Space Station.

One question that was often asked was whether people would be required to have Hydrogen detectors in their garages in case there was a leak. You can't add the "stinky stuff" like they put in Natural Gas so that you can smell a leak; it would "kill" the catalyst in the fuel cell.

So, yes, the technology is out there, it is expensive and there are some safety issues using a flammable gas, but there are safety issues with gasoline as well. The fuel pumps have been developed to repressurize the tanks to, I believe, 3000 psi, but my memory may be off a bit on the pressure.

edit to add: We were asked to bid on doing the analysis for a company in British Columbia that was working on a plant to use hydrolysis to make Hydrogen for fuel cells in cars. I don't recall what year it was, but it was sometime around Y2K. They were talking about trying to have a "Hydrogen Highway" in place for the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver.


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

not trying to be a party pooper, here, but my guess is by the time you grow and harvest the crops, and built up your infrastructure, to produce the products you want, you will find out just buying it is probably cheaper in the long run, 

If alcohol was considerably cheaper than gasoline the E85 would have been a huge success, 

how many are running bio diesel? mostly only the ones who can get free oil,
(and one could most like get free used motor oil and filter , It was done in the 1970 during the "gas shortage". by truckers), and use just as easy as vegetables oils,

and the methane is much like the natural gas the compressors and the tanks and the systems to handle it are not low cost, 

and to get engines to run on straight alcohol usually the engine needs rebuilt to operate under the changes, (compression ratio, timing, fuel system may not be compatible, carburetor units rejetted, 

all are good fuels but mixing or using the existing units may not make good transitions to the new fuels, 

but again as others have said you start in on the used motor oils and you may need recycling permits from the EPA, (not a place one wants to deal with normally)
make alcohol, and you have the IRS, BATF on you, 

to make methane you may have the EPA again on you, 

and in the least most alternate fueled cars and truck need a special tax for the use of alternate fuels, (YOU NEED TO PAY THE GOVERMENT) death and taxes, do not forget, 

I looked in to alcohol production back in the 80's, and by the time you spent and the set up costs, and all the things that would go against one, 
yes there are CO products, and you could feed the brewer grains to cattle and so on, but to make the system work was not for the low budget, or the I have to do it yesterday crowd, 

study it out and let us know what you conclude and if you try it keep us informed,


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

wy_white_wolf said:


> That's 100 gallons of beer, wine, and mead. Reduction to increase alcohol by volume (distillation or freeze reduction) are not allowed without a license. There is also a 200 gallon per houshold limit on beer or wine as long as 2 or more legal age adults live in the household.
> WWW


This is quite correct! I thought that you could make 5 gallons per adult in a home of moon shine but before building the still, I decided to make sure what I had heard was true and after many, many phone calls, the answer is that you can't legally build a still that will produce even a gallon of moonshine without a permit! And that is a Federal Law! 
But I thought that this sight might be of interest to you! www.oilcrucher.5u.com 
He has been at it for a good while and he has it going on, for bio-diesel anyway!
I had an accident a few years back and became disabled, but when that happened I had seeds to plant 2 acres of a certain type of sunflower seed! I forget the type now but they were the best for giving oil! 
But now I am thinking in a different direction! I was a welder/fitter for many years and I've designed and built many things, and one of my dreams has always been to build a water wheel to produce electricity! Now I am trying to find a track of land with a strong creek that I can build at least a 12 foot water wheel on to produce electricity! Then I'll build me an tractor with an electric motor for the small bit of farming I'll do and swap an electric motor into a small truck and charge them from the electricity the water wheel produces! 
I wish you the best with your dreams!


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

t think allis chalmers played around with a battery tractor general purpose sized, at one time....probable battery issues...


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R26RdfqGvUE[/ame]

You might enjoy seeing this one. It's been around for several years and I know there are more electric tractors out there. But yes, it can be done. It probably wouldn't work for a farm working 100+ acres but for us little guys, it might be workable to think about electric for power even if we have to generate it.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

Bellyman said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R26RdfqGvUE
> 
> You might enjoy seeing this one. It's been around for several years and I know there are more electric tractors out there. But yes, it can be done. It probably wouldn't work for a farm working 100+ acres but for us little guys, it might be workable to think about electric for power even if we have to generate it.


Hey thanks for the video! That was pretty good! He just used an old tractor and rigged it up and the cool thing about it was the solar panel even shaded him from the sun, LOL!
My main problem has been finding a track of land that has a creek on it that is suitable for building a water wheel on that also has a few acres that would be good for farming where the price is reasonable, and that seems to be an impossible task these days!


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