# Propane Ripoff?



## MrCalicoty

Ok. So I did my "homework" and read up on the subject to I could verify if I was getting 20lbs of propane in a 20lb tank. I had three empty tanks. I weighed each one on a digital (tanita) bathroom scale.

I went to a place that actually refilled the tanks and told them I wanted 20lbs of propane in each tank. I was told I would be charged for 20lbs no matter what amount was placed. Ok then, I will take a chance and see if I get my money's worth.


Tank one empty weighed 20.5 lbs. After "filling" weighed 36 lbs.
Tank two empty weighed 18.5 lbs. After "filling" weighed 37.5 lbs.
Tank three empty weighed 16.5 lbs. After "filling" weighed 35.5 lbs.

So, the amount of propane I received for each tank was:

15.5 lbs propane received
19 lbs propane received
19 lbs propane received

Each tank was as empty as I could make it. I always run them completely out before changing tanks. So, in no case did I receive 20lbs of propane but I paid for 60lbs. That's a shortage of 6.5lbs. 

Anyone else care to take the challenge and see if they get what they are paying for? I think there is a ripoff going on and I know there is a class action lawsuit ongoing against certain propane tank exchanges. Knowing this is why I wanted to see if I could ensure a better value by having my tanks filled at a filling station instead.


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## 7thswan

Don't they put it on a scale as they are filling the tank?


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## palani

Yuh .. .I took a partially filled 100# cylinder down for a fill thinking I would pay for the propane purchased and got charged for the entire 100#s. That only happens one time.


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## Bearfootfarm

Part of the charge is the gas, and part is the labor.

It's a set price based on the *size* of the tank.
They can only fill it 80% full

If you were buying in bulk you'd be paying by the GALLON


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## Harry Chickpea

Propane pricing is artificial anyway. I got a tank filled before Memorial Day for $10, a week later at the same place it was $15. Because of the variations, I'm becoming less enchanted with it as a fuel and more intrigued by gasoline and alcohol fueled stoves. Those never were a real possibility before because of the lead in gasoline unless you bought the expensive Coleman fuel. Gasoline blowtorches used to be the standard until cheap propane torches were developed.


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## logbuilder

I only fill my tanks were it is sold by the gallon. I can see the meter. I pay only for what they pumped in.


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## RiverPines

We have a 100LB tank for our hotwater and stove and we get charged by the gallon, not weight.
Right now its 2.50 per gallon for tank brought to filling stations and at the propane company near here. 
A 100 pound tank holds just a little over 23 gallons.

As for an 'exchange place', your paying for service, the exchange of tanks!
So they can charge flat fees. Their choice.
If you dont like it you go buy a tank thats suitable for a actual filling station.
Filling stations here dont fill those little tanks. Those can only be exchanged at exchange places which work totally different than an actual filling station.
I dont see how someone can sue when you are getting more than just the gas with an exchange system.
I cant ever exchange my tank. I buy just the gas. My tank is my responsibility.


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## MrCalicoty

Wow! Some of these comments are all over the map! Where is the consistency in your logic? If I take my tank to a filling station then I should get my tank filled. If I am paying by the pound or by the gallon I should be charged for the pound or gallon respectively. If they want to add a service charge fine. Charge a set fee. But for them to charge you for 20lbs for a fillup no matter what it takes is a ripoff if you never get 20lbs of propane in a propane tank. A 20# tank at 80% will take 20lbs of propane. These people are taking advantage of people who don't do their homework.

Dont be sheeple people! 

As for the lawsuit I have documentation from Amerigas where they ADMIT that they reduced their tank exchange amount from 17lbs to 15lbs for making a better profit. Their words, not mine. No advance notice... they just changed the amount they put in their tanks. That is a ripoff. They took advantage of sheeple and it's still happening.


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## MrCalicoty

Here's the documentation on Amerigas for the 20lb tank issue. Note that they admit a 20lb tank will hold 20lbs. Don't confuse pounds with gallons or any other blather you hear.


















So... Has anyone seen the notice about 15lbs CLEARLY noted on advertising? Probably not. Most likely all the sheeple just go in to the store register and pay for the exchange and find out ex post facto.


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## Aohtee

Propane cylinders are sold according to weight. Propane is liquid and is sold by the gallon. A 20 lb. tank holds 4.7 gallons of propane. A full 20 lb. tank should weight 40 lbs.

A gallon of propane weights 4.22 lbs.

A 100 lb. tank holds 23.6 gallons and weighs 170 lbs. when full.


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## tyusclan

Any propane cylinder exchanged will have 15 lbs. of propane in it. 

All modern cylinders have an OPD valve on them. It doesn't matter how much propane has been put into it, they have to stop filling when the OPD pops off.


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## MrCalicoty

tyusclan said:


> Any propane cylinder exchanged will have 15 lbs. of propane in it.
> 
> All modern cylinders have an OPD valve on them. It doesn't matter how much propane has been put into it, they have to stop filling when the OPD pops off.


Did you see the document I posted earlier? They clearly say they reduced the amount of propane (from 17 to 15lbs) they put in the cyclinder in order to charge the same amount. Think about it... you pay the same but get less. 

The whole 80% full business is very misleading. It allows you to think that you shouldn't expect 20lbs but that's not true. 

I've read from a propane expert who ran a propane company who said that a 20lb tank will hold 20lbs of propane at 80% of the tank's capacity. 

SO... Is the inconsistency in my tank fillup today partly due to faulty OPD valves? I've read that they have a high rate of failure.


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## MrCalicoty

Aohtee said:


> Propane cylinders are sold according to weight. Propane is liquid and is sold by the gallon. A 20 lb. tank holds 4.7 gallons of propane. A full 20 lb. tank should weight 40 lbs.
> 
> A gallon of propane weights 4.22 lbs.
> 
> A 100 lb. tank holds 23.6 gallons and weighs 170 lbs. when full.


Propane is only sold by weight if the person filling the tank weighs it BEFORE, DURING, and AFTER filling. Watch the person filling your tank CLOSELY. Just because they put your tank on a scale DOES NOT mean he is watching his meter or OPD valve or release valve or scale or anything!!! 

I'm convinced that most of the responses so far are from people who do not fully understand the process. This is why you likely going to continue getting ripped off.


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## MrCalicoty

RiverPines said:


> As for an 'exchange place', your paying for service, the exchange of tanks!
> So they can charge flat fees. Their choice.
> If you dont like it you go buy a tank thats suitable for a actual filling station.
> Filling stations here dont fill those little tanks.


I think you have it right RiverPines. A per/gallon charge is fine. A per/pound charge is fine. A service charge to fill the tank is fine. I want people to suceed at their businesses that I rely upon so I hope they make a profit and stick around!

The problem I have with exchange services is that you can't know how much product you are getting. You wouldn't stand for it if a full service gas station charged you for 40 gallons of gas for a 5 gallon top-off so why do we put up with this from propane exchanges?

For instance... In my test today I found that 3 empty 20lbs tanks all weighed differently. Why? Different manufactures, materials, OPD valves? You have to start at the empty weight of the tank before you can ADD 20lbs. It's really simple folks... Then the tank can be filled with 20lbs of propane if the process is done PROPERLY regardless of OPD this and that nonsense.


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## dezingg

I fill my tanks where they charge by the gallon. If I buy at least 25 gallons, there is a small discount. But law enforcement officers often wonder if you are involved with meth labs if you have a collection of tanks that you are filling.


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## MrCalicoty

dezingg said:


> I fill my tanks where they charge by the gallon. If I buy at least 25 gallons, there is a small discount. But law enforcement officers often wonder if you are involved with meth labs if you have a collection of tanks that you are filling.


I didn't know that... seriously. Geezz I must have had such a sheltered life.


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## logbuilder

Again, I get mine filled where they charge by the gallon. 

In terms of process, when I give them my tank, it is empty. They zero the gallons meter, hook up their hose, open the overflow valve on the tank with a screwdriver, open the valve on my tank, open the valve on the hose and start the pump. Propane starts to go in. As soon as the white propane liquid starts to come out of the overflow valve, they shut the overflow valve, shut the main valve on the tank, close the valve on the hose, turn off the pump, and then release pressure on the hose. Then they unscrew their hose from my tank. They read the meter and I go inside to pay where they multiply the gallons (in tenths) by the price per gallon (about $2 these days) and I pay.

Different tanks can take a little more or a little less than others however it is usually about 4.6 gallons.

I also have a 500 gallon tank that supplies my house. Basically the same process however they bring a truck full of propane to my house and I get a better per gallon cost since I buy so much at a time. I own my own 500 gal tank so I can shop around for the best deal when I need it. Prices can vary by up to 75 cents per gallon.


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## MrCalicoty

logbuilder said:


> I also have a 500 gallon tank that supplies my house. Basically the same process however they bring a truck full of propane to my house and I get a better per gallon cost since I buy so much at a time. I own my own 500 gal tank so I can shop around for the best deal when I need it. Prices can vary by up to 75 cents per gallon.


I would like to have my own large tank with a "wet leg" line. This would allow me to refill my own small tanks and probably save quite a bit. I'd like having the extra reserve too. Unfortunately our house propane tank is owned by the crummy CO-OP we have and they have a vapor meter on the house that prevents a wet leg since they own the propane and the tank and charge us for the usage.

I also disovered today that vapor meters are notoriously inaccurate directly from a propane company owner.


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## texican

Buy in bulk, and they'll deliver for free. Get burned at one place, go somewhere else.

I keep four or five of the tanks on hand, usually for cutting torch purposes... have free gas, so use it almost exclusively. One of these days going to figure out how to use it in the cutting torch.


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## tyusclan

MrCalicoty said:


> Propane is only sold by weight if the person filling the tank weighs it BEFORE, DURING, and AFTER filling. Watch the person filling your tank CLOSELY. Just because they put your tank on a scale DOES NOT mean he is watching his meter or OPD valve or release valve or scale or anything!!!
> 
> I'm convinced that most of the responses so far are from people who do not fully understand the process. This is why you likely going to continue getting ripped off.


It sounds like you're the one not understanding the process.

Most places that fill propane cylinders do NOT sell by weight. They have a flat rate for filling a 20, 30, 40 or 100 pound cylinder. It does not matter one whit to them how much propane they put in it. You're charged for filling that size cylinder, period. If you bring it back half full, you're STILL going to pay the full rate for filling that size cylinder.

They are going to fill it until the OPD pops off. They don't care if they've put 5 pounds or 20 pounds in it. You're going to pay the rate for that size cylinder. 

No one in this area fills cylinders by the pound or gallon. They all have flat rates.


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## MrCalicoty

tyusclan said:


> It sounds like you're the one not understanding the process.


Perhaps. So... why do filling stations have scales? And why do they 
have a propane meter to tell them how many gallons? If they are charging you a set fee for a fillup then they have wasted a lot of money on equipment.

My problem yesterday was that I was told I would be paying for 20lbs. Repeatedly! By two individuals. I told them I WANTED 20lbs. I got less.

This sort of thing happens all over society. We start out with a premise, and understanding or common baseline, something changes and we all just accept it blindly without even questioning it. Sheeple do that. 

And remember. I'm not here just to argue. I'm here to learn and teach whatever little I can offer because:

"As iron sharpens iron So one man sharpens another"​


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## 7thswan

Ok, so if I take in a 30,35 pounder tank and ask for 20 pounds, what am I going to get. (you can tell I know nothing of this)


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## poorboy

logbuilder said:


> Again, I get mine filled where they charge by the gallon.
> 
> In terms of process, when I give them my tank, it is empty. They zero the gallons meter, hook up their hose, open the overflow valve on the tank with a screwdriver, open the valve on my tank, open the valve on the hose and start the pump. Propane starts to go in. As soon as the white propane liquid starts to come out of the overflow valve, they shut the overflow valve, shut the main valve on the tank, close the valve on the hose, turn off the pump, and then release pressure on the hose. Then they unscrew their hose from my tank. They read the meter and I go inside to pay where they multiply the gallons (in tenths) by the price per gallon (about $2 these days) and I pay.
> 
> Different tanks can take a little more or a little less than others however it is usually about 4.6 gallons.
> 
> "open the overflow valve on the tank with a screwdriver,"
> it's now illegal to fill these small bottles with this type valve, your doing your filling station a disservice by mentioning it here
> 
> I also have a 500 gallon tank that supplies my house. Basically the same process however they bring a truck full of propane to my house and I get a better per gallon cost since I buy so much at a time. I own my own 500 gal tank so I can shop around for the best deal when I need it. Prices can vary by up to 75 cents per gallon.


"open the overflow valve on the tank with a screwdriver," 
it's now illegal to fill these small bottles with this type valve, your doing your filling station a disservice by mentioning it here..:hammer:


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## logbuilder

poorboy said:


> "open the overflow valve on the tank with a screwdriver,"
> it's now illegal to fill these small bottles with this type valve, your doing your filling station a disservice by mentioning it here..:hammer:


All my tanks have the new style valves.


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## Bearfootfarm

> it's now illegal to fill these small bottles with this type valve, your doing your filling station a disservice by mentioning it here..


The new style valves still have the overflow vent


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## FyredUp

MrCalicoty said:


> Did you see the document I posted earlier? They clearly say they reduced the amount of propane (from 17 to 15lbs) they put in the cyclinder in order to charge the same amount. Think about it... you pay the same but get less.
> 
> The whole 80% full business is very misleading. It allows you to think that you shouldn't expect 20lbs but that's not true.
> 
> I've read from a propane expert who ran a propane company who said that a 20lb tank will hold 20lbs of propane at 80% of the tank's capacity.
> 
> SO... Is the inconsistency in my tank fillup today partly due to faulty OPD valves? I've read that they have a high rate of failure.


I used to work in the propane industry. The fact is no propane tank should ever be filled more than 85% in colder weather and 80% in warmer weather. Propane is a liquified gas and as such needs space in the tank to allow it to return to a gaseous state. I guarantee you you do not want liquid propane flowing into any device using propane as it's fuel.


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## MrCalicoty

Today I took my last remaining empty (non-opd) tank to Home Depot for an exchange. They sell Amerigas. In an earlier post I asked if anyone knew if the reduced amount they now put in 20lb tanks is clearly noted. Seeing it for myself today I would say yes. Both on the tank and on the cage where pricing can be found. 

I paid $20 something which included the tax. They took my non-opd tank in exchange. I only got 15lbs. which, for the price, was a good deal as I didn't need to pay for a new tank. Normally I would not be happy with just 15lbs. Now, when propane prices go up again will Amerigas et al decide to only put 13lbs in (or some other amount). Would you all be ok with that? It wouldn't be any different than what they've already done, right?

Attached to the tank today was this notice:


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## MrCalicoty

FyredUp said:


> I used to work in the propane industry. The fact is no propane tank should ever be filled more than 85% in colder weather and 80% in warmer weather. Propane is a liquified gas and as such needs space in the tank to allow it to return to a gaseous state. I guarantee you you do not want liquid propane flowing into any device using propane as it's fuel.


So who is right? You or Amerigas? Read the first document that I attached earlier. They say that a 20lb propane tank WILL hold 20lbs of propane. Why in the world would a large corporation under the threat of a class action lawsuit make such a statement if it were not true? 

I've said it before but for clarity... A 20lb propane tank is designed to hold 20lbs of propane at 80% capacity. If the OPD valve doesn't let the proper amount in you aren't getting your money's worth in an exchange or flat-rate pricing probably 99% of the time. And most everyone seems to be ok with that. I really find this hard to believe.


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## MrCalicoty

Not trying to beat a dead horse here but I just noticed the labels on my new and older Amerigas propane exchange tanks.

This clearly shows that the same tank (OPD style 20lb) that Amerigas was filling to 17lbs and then reduced to 15lbs on a tank that I just had refilled at a filling station with 19lbs! Folks, this is REAL money and you're getting ripped off!

This photo shows the old and new tanks side by side. Tank on the left 15lbs (new). Tank on the right 17lbs (old).









This photo shows my sharpie pen writing on the tank where I noted the empty weight before I had it filled, the filled weight after re-filling the tank, and the net change in weight. Notice that the re-filled tank had 19lbs of propane put into it using just the OPD and the technician filling the tank did not release the vapor valve during filling but only let his pump turn off automatically.









If you're not weighing your tanks before and after you will never know how much propane you are getting for your money. Plain and simple.


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## anniew

Shop around. Not all exchange or filling places charge the same.


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## PastTense

You should be using 20 pound tanks only if you use small amounts of propane. If you use a lot of propane then switch to a larger tank.


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## MrCalicoty

Correct! I have used two different FILLING stations this week. One charged $18 and change and the one closest to me charged $20 and change. 

I think it's important to weigh these small tanks before and after if, for no other reason, to know if your OPD valve is allowing the correct amount of propane into the tank. If a filling station does it properly and you are still short it's probably time to get a different tank.

The difference between getting 15lbs and 19lbs or so adds up to about $5 or more.


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## Gurnis45

First, no propane tank is completely empty unless its either never been filled, or u unscrew the bleeder valve until all the pressure is off. Just because the tank doesn't have enough pressure to feed your grill or appliance doesn't mean the tank is empty. Second, nobody in my area sells by the lb or gallon, they all have flat rates around here regardless of how much propane was in the tank when you brought it to be filled. Thirdly, when the float on the OPD (inside the tank) reaches a certain level, no more propane can be added to the tank! Doesn't matter if the tank was empty and they only put 1 gallon in. When that OPD shuts off, it shuts off! Fourthly, If the station charges a flat rate, there is no need for the attendant to watch the scale or the meter for any reason except to be ready to shut the pump off when the tank stops taking propane in.

Now here are some ways that you will get ripped off at the station. If the attendant shakes or rattles the tank a bit to get the OPD to close before the tank was completely filled, then u just got ripped off. If the attendant shuts off the filling hose valve before you hear that distinct sound the pump makes at the moment the OPD closes, then you just got ripped off. 

You don't have to look at the scale or the meter either, just keep an eye on the tank to make sure it doesn't get bumped "accidentally-on purpose" causing the OPD to close prematurely. And listen to the pump for a change in sound just BEFORE the filling hose valve is closed by the attendant, not after. If it happens AFTER, then u just got ripped off.

If ur OPD is defective and closed prematurely on its own (without the tank being bumped by the attendant), then that's your problem and not the station's. In any case they won't add more propane after it closes.


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## Wendy

Wow! A 4 year old thread resurrected! Interesting read though.


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## Spinner

Here in Ok we pay by the gallon when we fill big home tanks, and by the lb with small bbq tanks. My guy sets the tank on a scale, zeros it out, then fills. I pay for the weight he puts in. I've never checked it, but the feds come by and inspect his scale every now and then. He gets fined if it's not right.


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