# 4th Graders Required to Complete ‘Equity Survey,’ Told Not to Discuss with Parents



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

4th Graders Complete ‘Equity Survey,’ Told Not to Discuss with Parents


A Minnesota fourth grade student said the class was required to complete an equity survey and told not to discuss it with parents.




www.breitbart.com





_“One question asked us what gender we identify with,” Haylee added. “I was very confused along with a lot of other classmates.”_


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## 67drake (May 6, 2020)

I’d be pulling my kid out of that school-pronto! Don’t discuss with parents? I’m not shocked, I’m pissed just hearing that. That teacher and anyone involved would be getting an ass chewing.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

My son (Navy Reserves) is fighting a battle with the school district that his children attend. Curriculum decisions are being made that cause concern for the impact on what used to be traditional values. 


Giving details here would probably be deemed political and bumped to the Dark Rooms.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

_Haylee said students were also told they were not permitted to “repeat any of the questions to our parents.” _

In any alternative world where the obvious answer doesn't count, why would that be?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Teachers don't seem to be able to make up their minds, they complain about lack of parental involvement, than tell the kids not to involve their parents.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

no really said:


> Teachers don't seem to be able to make up their minds, they complain about lack of parental involvement, than tell the kids not to involve their parents.


They don't want the parents to know they are teaching kids to hate.
Any time a school withholds information from parents, you can bet they are up to something evil.


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

Words won’t fight these imbeciles. Time for the people to march on the school board with flaming torches and farm implements like in the old days.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

We need cameras in class rooms broadcasting the session available live and available for replay 24x7 for parents to see the misdeeds of miscreant teachers. 

We trusted the public schools for too long. They broke that trust. Time to reclaim public education. 

Support school vouchers.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Unfortunately, teachers are TOLD what to say and do. I fought it like a harridan for fifteen years. Students loved me for standing up for them. Administrators and the school board, not so much.

I had a conversation this morning with a friend about the teacher shortage here in Central Texas. Llano is short TEN teachers, and it's a small mostly rural school. If I desperately needed money, I could get a job in any district around here before school starts in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately, my evaluation at the end of the year would not look good. 

I argued with one of the last administrators that I worked with when he penalized me on my evaluation for disagreeing with him on an issue earlier in the year. It was a pretty intense conversation. He corrected the evaluation.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

HDRider said:


> *We need cameras in class rooms* broadcasting the session available live and available for replay 24x7 for parents to see the misdeeds of miscreant teachers.
> 
> We trusted the public schools for too long. They broke that trust. Time to reclaim public education.
> 
> Support school vouchers.


I've thought that for some time.
Just like cops.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Cornhusker said:


> They don't want the parents to know they are teaching kids to hate.
> Any time a school withholds information from parents, you can bet they are up to something evil.


When teachers or any other adult tells children not to tell about what they say, the red flags should go up high.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

no really said:


> When teachers or any other adult tells children not to tell about what they say, the red flags should go up high.


And an ass beating should ensue.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Unfortunately, teachers are TOLD what to say and do. I fought it like a harridan for fifteen years. Students loved me for standing up for them. Administrators and the school board, not so much.
> 
> I had a conversation this morning with a friend about the teacher shortage here in Central Texas. Llano is short TEN teachers, and it's a small mostly rural school. If I desperately needed money, I could get a job in any district around here before school starts in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately, my evaluation at the end of the year would not look good.
> 
> I argued with one of the last administrators that I worked with when he penalized me on my evaluation for disagreeing with him on an issue earlier in the year. It was a pretty intense conversation. He corrected the evaluation.


My last year, I received the lowest evaluation ever. I was pretty vocal towards administration by then, too.


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

Nanny cams in every room.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mzgarden said:


> Nanny cams in every room.


And to the parents who don't give consent to have their children filmed, you'd say, "Screw you"? What about the rights of special ed students who have the right to not be publicly identified as such?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> And to the parents who don't give consent to have their children filmed, you'd say, "Screw you"? What about the rights of special ed students who have the right to not be publicly identified as such?


Than the schools should not allow cell phones on campus, seems a lot of video's are available of classrooms and the dysfunction in them on YouTube


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> And to the parents who don't give consent to have their children filmed, you'd say, "Screw you"? What about the rights of special ed students who have the right to not be publicly identified as such?


It's a security camera. There are already cameras on school buses. In any public space, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy, legally speaking. So yeah. I'd say screw you to any who may object.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I don't need a video showing the kids. A medium shot of the instructor at the front of the class would suffice.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> And to the parents who don't give consent to have their children filmed, you'd say, "Screw you"? What about the rights of special ed students who have the right to not be publicly identified as such?


No one said anything about monitoring kids. Just you.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Unfortunately, teachers are TOLD what to say and do. I fought it like a harridan for fifteen years. Students loved me for standing up for them. Administrators and the school board, not so much.
> 
> I had a conversation this morning with a friend about the teacher shortage here in Central Texas. Llano is short TEN teachers, and it's a small mostly rural school. If I desperately needed money, I could get a job in any district around here before school starts in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately, my evaluation at the end of the year would not look good.
> 
> I argued with one of the last administrators that I worked with when he penalized me on my evaluation for disagreeing with him on an issue earlier in the year. It was a pretty intense conversation. He corrected the evaluation.


Maybe in Texas but teachers here are not told what to say and do. We have a voice in district policy decisions as we should. In my entire career I have only had 2 principals who disrespected and disregarded the opinions of teachers and they both flamed out pretty quickly. 

Disagreeing with administrators is not that big of a deal. I do it plenty of times and always have. I always make sure that I have the law and the data on my side. 

The teacher shortage is not surprising. You're lucky it's only 10 in your district. It's only going to get worse as more teachers retire and fewer enter the profession.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> I don't need a video showing the kids. A medium shot of the instructor at the front of the class would suffice.


Do you seriously think teachers just stand at the front of the class and lecture?


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Do you seriously think teachers just stand at the front of the class and lecture?


A well placed camera in the classroom would answer that question.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I'd have to watch the video of you to know what you do.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I think 5.1 dolby surround would give us all a good idea once you step out of view. 
Our security cameras here have a speaker so we can call for the critters if we are out of town.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> It's a security camera. There are already cameras on school buses. In any public space, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy, legally speaking. So yeah. I'd say screw you to any who may object.


I see. So, in your mind, your opinion should trump the rights of every other parent? How unsurprising.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I bet the other parents would like to see what the teacher does. 
Wouldn't you?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> I bet the other parents would like to see what the teacher does.
> Wouldn't you?


I'd have the common courtesy, if I wanted to know something about the classroom, to ask the teacher. I'd have the common courtesy to respect the teacher as a professional. I'd have the common courtesy, if my kid told me something happened in the classroom that I questioned, to talk to the teacher.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Didn't seem that the teacher showed much courtesy by telling those kids to keep their mouths shut to their moms and dads, now did she?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

kinderfeld said:


> A well placed camera in the classroom would answer that question.


That is the modern world. Dash cams, body cams, security cams.
Many a crime has been solved because of those little buggers.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Cellphones are available.








https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=teachers+losing+their+temper


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> I see. So, in your mind, your opinion should trump the rights of every other parent?


It's not opinion, it's the law. They have no legal right to, or reasonable expectation of privacy in a PUBLIC space. But, if opinions are important to you, the vast majority of parents think that this is a good idea. Public opinion is on my side.



SLFarmMI said:


> How unsurprising.


How unsurprising that you don't want parents to see and hear what goes on in the classroom without you knowing.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> That is the modern world. Dash cams, body cams, security cams.
> Many a crime has been solved because of those little buggers.


And I feel like the misdeeds in education can be, in part, corrected with the use of these little buggers.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

SLFarmMI said:


> We have a voice in district policy decisions as we should.


Too bad the parents dont have such a voice. We keep showing up to board meetings to tell the marxists we dont want our kids indoctrinated in CRT, but you "educators" just tell us we are crazy because you aren't doing that.

But you are.

And then you tell our kids not to tell us about it .


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> It's not opinion, it's the law. They have no legal right to, or reasonable expectation of privacy in a PUBLIC space. But, if opinions are important to you, the vast majority of parents think that this is a good idea. Public opinion is on my side.
> 
> 
> How unsurprising that you don't want parents to see and hear what goes on in the classroom without you knowing.


The law is on my side. Parents have the right to keep information about their child confidential. That information includes their photograph or a recording of them and their special education status.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

no really said:


> Cellphones are available.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seems like not too long ago there was some discussion over a school board meeting in which the parents were shouted at by board members and told "YOU ARE DONE". There were one or two folks who opined that the parents were rude and deserved such treatment.
Could be that this classroom is a bunch of delinquents.
And maybe a teacher yelling "You are an idiot!" to a student in front of the class runs along the same vein.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> The law is on my side. Parents have the right to keep information about their child confidential. That information includes their photograph or a recording of them and their special education status.


And yet there is the video I posted of the teacher abusing a special ed student.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Didn't seem that the teacher showed much courtesy by telling those kids to keep their mouths shut to their moms and dads, now did she?


If that is what was actually said which, given the source in the OP, is probably not likely. It is just as likely that the teacher's instructions were to complete the task independently so that the answers were what the kid thought and not what the parent told them to write.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> The law is on my side. *Parents have the right to keep information about their child confidential.* That information includes their photograph or a recording of them and their special education status.


Only to the extent that it makes it possible to identify the student.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> If that is what was actually said which, given the source in the OP, is probably not likely. It is just as likely that the teacher's instructions were to complete the task independently so that the answers were what the kid thought and not what the parent told them to write.


It is just as likely you did not watch the posted video of the student stating publicly into the microphone that she was told not to speak of the matter to her parents. 
Surely you don't mean to include children into your list of liars about the public school system.
Would you like someone here to direct you back up to the link?


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> If that is what was actually said which, given the source in the OP, is probably not likely. It is just as likely that the teacher's instructions were to complete the task independently so that the answers were what the kid thought and not what the parent told them to write.


The source is video of the girl speaking to the school board.

_Haylee said students were also told they were not permitted to “repeat any of the questions to our parents.”
“Being asked to hide this from my mom made me very uncomfortable, like I was doing something wrong,” Haylee told the school board._


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> I'd have the common courtesy, if I wanted to know something about the classroom, to ask the teacher. I'd have the common courtesy to respect the teacher as a professional. I'd have the common courtesy, if my kid told me something happened in the classroom that I questioned, to talk to the teacher.


Yeah. We've tried that. We tried that with cops, too.
Teachers aren't the only "public servants" known to lie.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> And to the parents who don't give consent to have their children filmed, you'd say, "Screw you"? What about the rights of special ed students who have the right to not be publicly identified as such?


They can wear masks


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> We have a voice in district policy decisions as we should.


It scares me even more to think you are speaking up


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Didn't seem that the teacher showed much courtesy by telling those kids to keep their mouths shut to their moms and dads, now did she?


I consider the teachers action in telling the kids not to discuss the questions with their parents child abuse.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> I'd have the common courtesy to respect the teacher as a professional.


That shipped sailed. Public schools abused the trust, and the trust is gone.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> _Haylee said students were also told they were not permitted to “repeat any of the questions to our parents.” _
> 
> In any alternative world where the obvious answer doesn't count, why would that be?


I taught my daughters specifically that if anyone ever told them for any reason not to tell their parents, then that was a red flag to tell us. 
I don’t care what the subject matter is, telling kids not to tell their parents is completely unacceptable.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> I'd have the common courtesy, if I wanted to know something about the classroom, to ask the teacher. I'd have the common courtesy to respect the teacher as a professional. I'd have the common courtesy, if my kid told me something happened in the classroom that I questioned, to talk to the teacher.


It's not about common courtesy. It's about trust.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> It scares me even more to think you are speaking up


It scares me to think that you are with your constant delusions.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> It's not about common courtesy. It's about trust.


It's absolutely about common courtesy. Have the common courtesy to talk to the teacher instead of running about with your hair on fire.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

So you still didn't watch the video, did you?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The video where the student states she and her classmates were told by the public school teacher to not speak to their parents about the subject matter.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Under what circumstances would you direct your class to not speak about a lesson to their parents?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Sometimes members get a little disorientated when skipping thru multiple threads. This one is titled 
*4th Graders Required to Complete ‘Equity Survey,’ Told Not to Discuss with Parents*


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Some members cannot be reoriented


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> It's absolutely about common courtesy.


That's your point of view. The point of view that the majority of parents hold is that this is a trust issue. Or, the lack thereof, to be more precise.



SLFarmMI said:


> Have the common courtesy to talk to the teacher instead of running about with your hair on fire.


#1. If a student was told by a teacher not to discuss something with their parents, this isn't something that will be resolved by talking to the "teacher".

#2. I shave my head. No issues there. That's not my picture.

This is not an isolated incident. It's a frequent occurrence.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

dbl.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Every parent has the right to know what their children are being taught and if a teacher is aware that the information presented is controversial enough that parents are going to be unhappy, they deserve the right to withdraw their children from the class or have a discussion with their children regarding the material being presented. 

Back when tv's had rounded corners, I had a teacher that was a strong PETA advocate and she presented one of their slaughterhouse horror shows in class, with the same strong warning about speaking to our parents. The film was age inappropriate and left several children traumatized. 

Thankfully, my parents taught me to question authority and we did discuss the film at home.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Teachers told to give fake curriculum to parents who complain of ‘indoctrination’ - Citizens Journal


By Art Moore WND News Center Amid complaints from parents that their children are being "indoctrinated," a Missouri school district official is advising English teachers to create a fake curriculum and keep the real one hidden. The real one is focused on "antiracist" activism and issues of...




www.citizensjournal.us













Missouri mother says son's school was told to hide race-based curriculum from parents


The mother of a Missouri ninth-grader said Friday she was "upset" to learn that Rockwood School District was accused of hiding certain race-based curriculum from parents.




www.foxnews.com


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

kinderfeld said:


> 4th Graders Complete ‘Equity Survey,’ Told Not to Discuss with Parents
> 
> 
> A Minnesota fourth grade student said the class was required to complete an equity survey and told not to discuss it with parents.
> ...


Not at all surprised.

In my mind most teachers are not educators, they are indoctrinators. 

Puppets of leftist/communist ideology that only serves to break down the nuclear family and rend the fabric of our free society.

Public education cost me the life of one of my children.

I have nothing but contempt and total distrust of public school education.



> From beginning to end, public education is organized on the concept of compulsion. By means of the property tax, sales tax and state income tax people are forced to pay for schooling whether they have children or not, whether they agree with what the schools are doing or not. The illusion of having influence through elections, PTA meetings, parent nights, or other legal avenues doesn’t change the truth: we are forced to send our children to particular schools where they are educated and indoctrinated in a particular way. What’s more, the price that American taxpayers have to pay for government schooling has skyrocketed. Twenty-five years ago, the cost of public education per student per year was roughly $2,000. Today it is over $8,000.
> 
> Let’s imagine a computer industry funded, organized and managed like public education. Every year computers would get more and more expensive and less and less functional. By now a PC would probably cost a million dollars! It would be as big as this lecture room and basically capable of adding and subtracting. Of course some government expert could “prove” to you that with current limited funding it is scientifically impossible for such a complex system to divide, multiply or do word processing: “What, are you crazy? I’m a scientist and you’re trying to tell me this computer ought to be able to do these things?” But be assured it would always come with irremovable software teaching your ten-year-old how to practice “safe sex.”
> 
> https://fee.org/resources/the-greatest-mistake-in-american-history-letting-government-educate-our-children/


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

Educational Equity Commitment / Equity Audit







www.sartell.k12.mn.us





District officials say information about the *surveys were sent to families* via emails, weekly announcements and through local media. Teachers were told to note if a parent/guardian opted out of the survey, which some families did. Parents/guardians were also not prohibited from speaking to their children about the survey nor from viewing the survey while their students were taking it.

As a parent I would want to know the questions being asked.
They knew their kids would be taking the survey.

I do find it hard to believe a teacher told them not to tell their parents what questions were asked, knowing kids and all...


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

doozie said:


> I do find it hard to believe a teacher told them not to tell their parents what questions were asked, knowing kids and all...


Were it an isolated incident, I might as well.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

kinderfeld said:


> I've thought that for some time.
> Just like cops.


Teachers should be required to wear body cameras any time they are in the school building. What a teacher is doing is more important than what a cop might be doing.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

A teacher continues to tell us a lot of things, and yet...


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

doozie said:


> Educational Equity Commitment / Equity Audit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Were the parents given copies of the questions?


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

doozie said:


> Educational Equity Commitment / Equity Audit
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_Kelsey Yasgar, Haylee’s mother, appeared with her daughter on Fox & Friends, stating that, while parents were “informed that the equity audit was taking place, they were not informed on the date of the activity and not given other details,” including the questions their children would be asked._


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

no really said:


> Were the parents given copies of the questions?


Apparently not, according to the article.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

and in the school district outside of St Louis Missouri, the teacher told the kids to give parents the "embellished" curriculum.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> and in the school district outside of St Louis Missouri, the teacher told the kids to give parents the "embellished" curriculum.


Yep.








Teachers told to give fake curriculum to parents who complain of ‘indoctrination’ - Citizens Journal


By Art Moore WND News Center Amid complaints from parents that their children are being "indoctrinated," a Missouri school district official is advising English teachers to create a fake curriculum and keep the real one hidden. The real one is focused on "antiracist" activism and issues of...




www.citizensjournal.us


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Just as one bad cop can ruin the standing of the police as a whole, a minority of really bad teachers can do the same. Pathologically denying or defending blatant problems to an extreme just harms everyone else in the system.
There are good teachers at HT; none that I have seen stand up and defend this baloney.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

no really said:


> Were the parents given copies of the questions?


Parents/guardians were also not prohibited from speaking to their children about the survey nor from viewing the survey while their students were taking it.

I believe they took the survey from home/ online due to the at home Covid classes.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

doozie said:


> Educational Equity Commitment / Equity Audit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My son was in special education in a Southwest Missouri school. One night he dropped to the floor in a fetal position trembling saying, "I'll be good, I'll be good."

When we got him to tell us what was bothering him I too thought at first that he was confabulating. I later learned that it was all true.

The teacher was not a special ed. teacher, he was an agriculture teacher, so no training with special needs children.

The school district looked upon special ed. students as discipline problems that needed an iron fisted approach.

This animal would deadbolt my eighth grade son into a 5'X5' closet and shut the lights off for the high crime on not finishing a classroom assignment on time. He also derived a depraved pleasure in terrorizing the class.

When we approached the director of special education, her contempt for us was extremely palpable. Her attitude was unmistakable that we were the stupid parents and they were the brilliant, college educated instructors.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

doozie said:


> Parents/guardians were also not prohibited from speaking to their children about the survey nor from viewing the survey while their students were taking it.
> 
> I believe they took the survey from home/ online due to the at home Covid classes.


Got a link for that? But the teacher still told them not to discuss the questions with their parents.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> And to the parents who don't give consent to have their children filmed, you'd say, "Screw you"? What about the rights of special ed students who have the right to not be publicly identified as such?


Put them on the long bus.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

School district drops equity audit consultant - The Newsleaders


by Mike Knaak [email protected] After weeks of backlash to a consultant’s equity audit survey and report, the Sartell-St. Stephen school district voted Aug. 2 to part ways with the group Equity Alliance MN and move ahead to tackle the district’s equity issues with a committee of parents...



thenewsleaders.com





Ridlehoover, who took over as superintendent on July 1, renewed the request and Equity Alliance agreed to send a link to people who had requested the questions. Then the consultants backed off on sharing the questions on advice of their counsel. Ridlehoover said the district continues to press for release of the questions.

Strange!


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

no really said:


> Got a link for that? But the teacher still told them not to discuss the questions with their parents.


Media release area on the first link I posted.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Is it possible they asked them to not discuss them with their parents before answering? Not that they found not to not discuss them after answering? We really don't have enough info in the OP. Just the headlines.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Do you seriously think teachers just stand at the front of the class and lecture?


A lot of them sit in the teachers lounge watching soaps.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Is it possible they asked them to not discuss them with their parents before answering? Not that they found not to not discuss them after answering? We really don't have enough info in the OP. Just the headlines.


You have to read the article. The headline is not the article.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Is it possible they asked them to not discuss them with their parents before answering? Not that they found not to not discuss them after answering? *We really don't have enough info in the OP. Just the headlines.*


The OP includes a link to an article with video of a school board meeting.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> Is it possible they asked them to not discuss them with their parents before answering?


That is an interesting veiwpoint for a parent to take.
Why would you tell a student not to inform their parents until they have answered the questions?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I read the article and I also searched for more info. I have also watched more of the school meeting than just the video.
I do think it is possible the children did not understand what was asked.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

They were told not to inform their parents. Why are you confused?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> That is an interesting veiwpoint for a parent to take.
> Why would you tell a student not to inform their parents until they have answered the questions?


Same as they are asked not to talk to others when doing a test. They want the answers from the children, not the parents. It looks like these were done at home on the computer.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> I read the article and I also searched for more info. I have also watched more of the school meeting than just the video.
> I do think it is possible the children did not understand what was asked.


Derick Chavin's attorney believed there was more taking place that day with Mr. Floyd than just "that video".


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Who is responsible when an entire classroom of students do not understand what is meant by don't inform your parents?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

They did not say don't inform your parents. The girl said that when one boy asked if his parent could explain it to him, he was told no. Maybe they took this as not discussing it at all instead of not discussing it before the survey. It is a possibility.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Here is the first paragraph from the article linked, by the way, in the very first post.

_A fourth grade student in the Sartell-St. Stephen school district in Minnesota informed the school board students were required to complete an “equity survey,” and told not to “repeat any of the questions to our parents.”

“My teacher said that I could not skip any questions even when I didn’t understand them,” Haylee Yasgar, who attended Riverview Intermediate School, said at a recent school board meeting, reported Alphanews Minnesota.
“One question asked us what gender we identify with,” Haylee added. “I was very confused along with a lot of other classmates.”


Haylee said students were also told they were not permitted to “repeat any of the questions to our parents.”_


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

There is also an accompanying video documenting the OP titles and discussion that you can view. It is also in the first post.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> They did not say don't inform your parents. The girl said that when one boy asked if his parent could explain it to him, he was told no. Maybe they took this as not discussing it at all instead of not discussing it before the survey. It is a possibility.


So you are inclined to believe the teacher over your child and their classmates? Interesting.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I am not inclined either way. I am looking for all the info. Just as adults don't always tell the entire story or understand when others tell instead of what they think they heard, nor do children.

My boss and I do this all the time. Clarify what we each thought the other said.


----------



## doozie (May 21, 2005)

Wouldn't it be nice if we could hear from the teacher in question, LOL.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> They did not say don't inform your parents. The girl said that when one boy asked if his parent could explain it to him, he was told no. Maybe they took this as not discussing it at all instead of not discussing it before the survey. It is a possibility.


It makes little difference to me either way... my question is why this survey was being done in a public school in the first place?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> I am not inclined either way. I am looking for all the info.


Yet you began by speculating a rationalization for the teacher.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Yet you began by speculating a rationalization for the teacher.


No , I am looking at both sides instead of assuming that one version we heard was the entire truth.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

doozie said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if we could hear from the teacher in question, LOL.


 For the reason of *__*, the school district and their attorney will handle the groupspeak from here on out.
Oddly, the teacher would be considered unqualified, legally or course, from saying anything further.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> No , I am looking at both sides instead of assuming that one version we heard was the entire truth.


So your son, daughter or something inbetween tells you after the fact that they were instructed by their teacher to not discuss the contents of the above mentioned, and this was confirmed by their classmates, you would still "look at both sides" before assuming your family unit was being truthful with you?


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> So your son, daughter or something inbetween tells you after the fact that they were instructed by their teacher to not discuss the contents of the above mentioned, and this was confirmed by their classmates, you would still "look at both sides" before assuming your family unit was being truthful with you?


Was it confirmed by their classmates? Or did the child just say that? I don't have that info. Do you?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I never enjoyed watching kids squirm as they contorted their stories and tales while denying the obvious. With adults there can be a decadent pleasure to it.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

doozie said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if we could hear from the teacher in question, LOL.


Wouldn't it be nice if we could just rewind a video? LOL.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Based on previous threads, a member is notorious for, when the bias suits them, to go with "based on the information at this time".
That can't be a good feeling when your own parents need to fact check you over an incident like this.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I have a feeling that child may become the target of retribution.


----------



## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

Home school or private school. Funding stops, union dues to NEA drop, and most importantly, indoctrination ceases.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Sounds like a scam pulled on the school, how much did this equity program cost? 

David Switzer, an economics professor at St. Cloud State University, analyzed the equity audit conducted by EAM, observing “deficiencies in the data, methodology, and reporting,” including details of “all the omissions and errors.”



https://alphanewsmn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/748-Audit-Data-Reporting-Issues-Switzer.pdf


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

When I started teaching in 1989, the interference was minimal. Fifteen years later, it was bad. Now it’s horrendous.

In Texas, the legislature mandates curriculum, the Texas Education Agency mandates whatever they can, and crazy administrators do the rest.

From what I hear, it hasn’t improved.


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

MichaelZ said:


> Home school or private school. Funding stops, union dues to NEA drop, and most importantly, indoctrination ceases.


And continue to push for school choice in funding.


----------



## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> When I started teaching in 1989, the interference was minimal. Fifteen years later, it was bad. Now it’s horrendous.
> 
> In Texas, the legislature mandates curriculum, the Texas Education Agency mandates whatever they can, and crazy administrators do the rest.
> 
> From what I hear, it hasn’t improved.



My DD is a Principal. I have friends still teaching. Others recently retired. The situation is NOT improving. No way could I ever go back in the classroom.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> When I started teaching in 1989, the interference was minimal. Fifteen years later, it was bad. Now it’s horrendous.
> 
> In Texas, the legislature mandates curriculum, the Texas Education Agency mandates whatever they can, and crazy administrators do the rest.
> 
> From what I hear, it hasn’t improved.


A college friend has given up on teaching public school after nearly 18 years. She said it's become impossible to actually teach due to the steady stream of special interest groups that the school system wants to pander to. Ridiculous amounts of forms and reports that have no impact on the students or their learning. Not counting, the large amount of substitute teachers that are just there to draw a check and do as little as possible to earn it.

She is teaching at a private school, she loves it. She feels as like she is actually teaching.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> I'd have the common courtesy, if I wanted to know something about the classroom, to ask the teacher. I'd have the common courtesy to respect the teacher as a professional. I'd have the common courtesy, if my kid told me something happened in the classroom that I questioned, to talk to the teacher.


I tried that when my son was having problems in school. His 4th grade teacher repeatedly lied to my face every single time. I was repeatedly denied the opportunity to sit in on the class to see where my son was having problems. I had to get an administrator from the school board involved to find out what was really happening.

My kids didn't lie to me but several of their teachers did. That is part of why they were homeschooled until they were old enough to take the GED test.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

1. The survey was not required as the OP states. Parents had the right to opt their kids out of the survey and several parents did so.

2. The survey was not kept hidden from parents. It was conducted out in the open on Zoom during distance learning.

3. The survey was not written by the district. It was written by a private company that conducts equity audits. The district has been pressing to have the questions released.









School district drops equity audit consultant - The Newsleaders


by Mike Knaak [email protected] After weeks of backlash to a consultant’s equity audit survey and report, the Sartell-St. Stephen school district voted Aug. 2 to part ways with the group Equity Alliance MN and move ahead to tackle the district’s equity issues with a committee of parents...



thenewsleaders.com







Evons hubby said:


> It makes little difference to me either way... my question is why this survey was being done in a public school in the first place?


These surveys are done to see where the district can improve based on the input from parents, students, staff, community members, etc. Apparently, based on their results, this district has some work to do regarding to their ELL population.









Sartell-St. Stephen Gets Results of Equity Audit


The Sartell-St. Stephen school board got the results of a recently conducted equity audit.




wjon.com





Seems like the "article" in the OP forgot to find out the facts of the matter.


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

no really said:


> Sounds like a scam pulled on the school, how much did this equity program cost?


Unless they're teaching students about equity in assets (unlikely), any "equity" program is likely a waste of resources...something we're constantly told that schools are short on.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> 1. The survey was not required as the OP states. Parents had the right to opt their kids out of the survey and several parents did so.
> 
> 2. The survey was not kept hidden from parents. It was conducted out in the open on Zoom during distance learning.
> 
> ...


Not sure they are going to acquire much useful data from the survey, according to this economists review. 



https://alphanewsmn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/748-Audit-Data-Reporting-Issues-Switzer.pdf


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

no really said:


> Not sure they are going to acquire much useful data from the survey, according to this economists review.
> 
> 
> 
> https://alphanewsmn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/748-Audit-Data-Reporting-Issues-Switzer.pdf


Which may be why the board asked questions of the company for a "more refined report".


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> Which may be why the board asked questions of the company for a "more refined report".


Without useful data that wouldn't be possible, maybe the board is hinting at just producing the desired goal without the proper data.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Have to wonder how much taxpayer money went into this fiasco?


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

SLFarmMI said:


> The law is on my side. Parents have the right to keep information about their child confidential. That information includes their photograph or a recording of them and their special education status.


“The Law” was also on the side of the Nazis.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

no really said:


> Without useful data that wouldn't be possible, maybe the board is hinting at just producing the desired goal without the proper data.


If you notice, in the report you cited, their problem is how the data is being reported, not a problem with the data itself. Although, without access to the graphs and charts that are being cited, it is impossible to determine if the analysis is correct.

..."maybe the board is hinting at just producing the desired goal without the proper data." And maybe unicorns will fly over the rainbow shooting Skittles out of their butts.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

SLFarmMI said:


> And to the parents who don't give consent to have their children filmed, you'd say, "Screw you"? What about the rights of special ed students who have the right to not be publicly identified as such?


Are you ok with the teachers telling kids not to tell what they talk about?
Sounds like someone's creepy uncle.
Are you ok with that too?


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> So you still didn't watch the video, did you?


Of course I watched it. I also read the "article" that accompanied it. Then I did what you didn't do. I went looking for the facts. Turns out, the survey was not required & parents could opt their kids out. Turns out the survey was not to be hidden from parents and was, in fact, presented right in the open on a Zoom class session. 

Took me less than 10 minutes to find the facts of the matter which were not what were presented in the OP. Why is it that you couldn't have put 10 minutes to good use to find out the facts?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> If you notice, in the report you cited, their problem is how the data is being reported, not a problem with the data itself. Although, without access to the graphs and charts that are being cited, it is impossible to determine if the analysis is correct.
> 
> ..."maybe the board is hinting at just producing the desired goal without the proper data." And maybe unicorns will fly over the rainbow shooting Skittles out of their butts.


So you didn't read the report? 😊


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Cornhusker said:


> Are you ok with the teachers telling kids not to tell what they talk about?
> Sounds like someone's creepy uncle.
> Are you ok with that too?


How is a survey conducted out in the open on a Zoom meeting that any parent could watch "telling kids not to tell what they talk about"?


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

no really said:


> So you didn't read the report? 😊


Seems like you didn't.


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> My son was in special education in a Southwest Missouri school. One night he dropped to the floor in a fetal position trembling saying, "I'll be good, I'll be good."
> 
> When we got him to tell us what was bothering him I too thought at first that he was confabulating. I later learned that it was all true.
> 
> ...


I would be serving a life sentence in prison had that been done to my child... I’m so sorry to hear about this.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yet she told them not to tell them.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> These surveys are done to see where the district can improve based on the input from parents, students, staff, community members, etc. Apparently, based on their results, this district has some work to do regarding to their ELL population.


ooooh Kay, but what does a fourth graders opinion about their gender have to do with reading and writing or arithmetic? What is an “ell” population and how does it relate?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Cornhusker said:


> Are you ok with the teachers telling kids not to tell what they talk about?
> Sounds like someone's creepy uncle.
> Are you ok with that too?


I thought about that one as well.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> ooooh Kay, but what does a fourth graders opinion about their gender have to do with reading and writing or arithmetic? What is an “ell” population and how does it relate?


It doesn't. It serves a different purpose.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> I would be serving a life sentence in prison had that been done to my child... I’m so sorry to hear about this.


Apparently, if you aren't engaged enough to know that a CRT or DE & I or LBGIOU survey is being given to your child, that is your fault.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> ooooh Kay, but what does a fourth graders opinion about their gender have to do with reading and writing or arithmetic? What is an “ell” population and how does it relate?


Sorry, I used an abbreviation. ELL=English Language Learner

The questions are asked to determine how different populations view their school experience and the services that are being offered to them. What is their school experience like? Are they being bullied? Where do they feel safe or unsafe? How could the district improve their school experience?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

The group that sold this to the school system needs to provide the questions but apparently they refuse.


The email went on to say, “The context that was shared – which may have been misinterpreted by students and/or staff – was that students were asked to answer the questions related to their own personal experience and that their answers should reflect their own personal perceptions and not those of classmates, friends or family members.”
The audit report, prepared by Equity Alliance MN, was presented to the board on June 21. Since that time, parents have asked to see the full survey questions and the school board has been pressing the firm to release them. Initially Equity Alliance responded that the questions were proprietary material.
Ridlehoover, who took over as superintendent on July 1, renewed the request and Equity Alliance agreed to send a link to people who had requested the questions. Then the consultants backed off on sharing the questions on advice of their counsel. Ridlehoover said the district continues to press for release of the questions.
“We have nothing to hide, and we would like to have the questions shared. The board has asked questions for a more refined report,” Ridlehoover said. “There is a growing disappointment on our end that we have not be able to get questions answered. We need to have more clarity in order to move forward with the work.”









School district drops equity audit consultant - The Newsleaders


by Mike Knaak [email protected] After weeks of backlash to a consultant’s equity audit survey and report, the Sartell-St. Stephen school district voted Aug. 2 to part ways with the group Equity Alliance MN and move ahead to tackle the district’s equity issues with a committee of parents...



thenewsleaders.com


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

kinderfeld said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if we could just rewind a video? LOL.


I suppose we can recap for those that continue to ignore the report.

Here is the first paragraph from the article linked, by the way, in the very first post.

_A fourth grade student in the Sartell-St. Stephen school district in Minnesota informed the school board students were required to complete an “equity survey,” and told not to “repeat any of the questions to our parents.”

“My teacher said that I could not skip any questions even when I didn’t understand them,” Haylee Yasgar, who attended Riverview Intermediate School, said at a recent school board meeting, reported Alphanews Minnesota.
“One question asked us what gender we identify with,” Haylee added. “I was very confused along with a lot of other classmates.”


Haylee said students were also told they were not permitted to “repeat any of the questions to our parents.”_


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> Seems like you didn't.





https://alphanewsmn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/748-Audit-Data-Reporting-Issues-Switzer.pdf




This document is the result of a careful analysis of the data, graphs, and discussion included in the Equity Audit provided by EA-MN. After some initial notes on overall impressions of the deficiencies in the data, methodology, and reporting, this evaluation goes through each of the six dimensions listed in the audit and details all of the omissions and errors. In virtually every case, the omission/error makes it impossible to understand what was found, aggregates information so that it cannot be used for school-level improvements, or misrepresents the data to imply that there is a racial or gender disparity in the data that statistical analysis of the data shows does not actually exist. In short, the graphs are flawed and the results are frequently misinterpreted to imply problems that the data do not prove exist. 

Sorry about the formatting on phone, don't have to patience to fix.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

no really said:


> The group that sold this to the school system needs to provide the questions *but apparently they refuse.*
> Since that time, parents have asked to see the full survey questions and the school board has been pressing the firm to release them. Initially Equity Alliance responded that the questions were proprietary material.
> Then *the consultants backed off on sharing the questions on advice of their counsel.* Ridlehoover said the district continues to press for release of the questions.


They probably should have sought counsel before rather than after.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

GTX63 said:


> Apparently, if you aren't engaged enough to know that a CRT or DE & I or LBGIOU survey is being given to your child, that is your fault.


What?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Sorry, I used an abbreviation. ELL=English Language Learner
> 
> The questions are asked to determine how different populations view their school experience and the services that are being offered to them. What is their school experience like? Are they being bullied? Where do they feel safe or unsafe? How could the district improve their school experience?


This districts job is to teach all the kids English... or should be. As to bullying, kids bully other kids.... nothing new about that. Kids should be aware that the world isn’t safe, never has been safe, never will be safe.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> What?


It is blaming the parents because they didn't stop you from traumatizing their kid.


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> I suppose we can recap for those that continue to ignore the report.
> 
> Here is the first paragraph from the article linked, by the way, in the very first post.
> 
> ...


I know. I posted it.


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

GTX63 said:


> It is blaming the parents because they didn't stop you from traumatizing their kid.


I’m still not seeing the relevance to my reply to the post where the child was locked inside of a 5x5 closet and kept in the dark.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> I’m still not seeing the relevance to my reply to the post where the child was locked inside of a 5x5 closet and kept in the dark.


It wasn't relevant to the child in the closet. 
I'm referring to Public School schills shifting the blame from their own shortcomings to you for not knowing that they are teaching your kids crap.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

no really said:


> The group that sold this to the school system needs to provide the questions but apparently they refuse.
> 
> 
> The email went on to say, “The context that was shared – which may have been misinterpreted by students and/or staff – was that students were asked to answer the questions related to their own personal experience and that their answers should reflect their own personal perceptions and not those of classmates, friends or family members.”
> ...


It sounds very shady. Certainly not "equitable".


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

The problem is that the OP is not the whole story.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I'm quoting you
"Based on the information I have so far..."
Doesn't that mindset work for you here?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> The problem is that the OP is not the whole story.


But enough to expose the shenannigans.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Here is a quote from the video of the student, a female as she gives her statement to the group.

_Haylee said students were also told they were not permitted to “repeat any of the questions to our parents.”
Repeat? If they couldn't repeat them to their parents before the survey, then why?
If they couldn't repeat them after the survey, then why?
“Being asked to hide this from my mom made me very uncomfortable, like I was doing something wrong,” Haylee told the school board.
No one should make your kids uncomfortable to talk to you, not an adult and not a school teacher.
Parents in the district are concerned about the push to teach concepts associated with Critical Race Theory (CRT), a Marxist ideology.

Please someone call this child a liar. I would prefer they be a pro METOO movement gal._

It's ok to want more information, k.
When you seek only to discredit the parents and the kids, you are lying to yourself, k.
When you cannot even acknowledge there is a problem, you are lying to yourself.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> I would be serving a life sentence in prison had that been done to my child... I’m so sorry to hear about this.


Thank you.

We filed a federal suit and fought the school district for five years.

It went to a bench trial and the whole thing was thrown out the window.

We were told that if we appealed we would be liable for all of the school district's legal fees.

The SOB that hurt my boy died in 2017. He was 60.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

painterswife said:


> The problem is that the OP is not the whole story.


Or even half the story. But that doesn't matter to the folks here.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Or even half the story. But that doesn't matter to the folks here.


What, exactly, is the whole story?


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> The problem is that the OP is not the whole story.


What, exactly, is the whole story?


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> What, exactly, is the whole story?


I don't know. Neither does anyone here. The story may be factual. It may not be. I would like to know more. I suspect at least one if not more parent, listened in on the zoom session. I would also like to know what the school says after looking into this.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

painterswife said:


> The problem is that the OP is not the whole story.


So what is the whole story?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

There seems to be a pattern.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

JeffreyD said:


> What, exactly, is the whole story?


I've posted it but, here's a recap, just for you.

The survey, which has nothing at all to do with CRT by the way, was not required as was claimed in the OP. Parents could, and some did, opt their children out. The survey was not hidden from parents, as was claimed in the OP. It was conducted right out in the open via a Zoom session during distance learning. The children were not told they had to keep the questions secret from their parents as the OP claimed.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

painterswife said:


> I don't know. Neither does anyone here. The story may be factual. It may not be. I would like to know more. I suspect at least one if not more parent, listened in on the zoom session. I would also like to know what the school says after looking into this.


I posted the superintendent's response upthread if you would like to know what the district says.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"A boy in my class asked my teacher if his mom could explain the question to him because even after the teacher explained it, he still didn't understand," she continued. "My teacher told him that he was not allowed to ask his mom and that we could not repeat any of the questions to our parents."

I pointed this out earlier. The girl could have easily misunderstood. The teacher could easily have meant they could not ask for help from a parent during the survey., not that they could not discuss it afterwards.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Have you ever been concerned about something your child told you happened at school?


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

painterswife said:


> I don't know. Neither does anyone here.


At least you were honest enough to admit that you have no idea.

I do find it interesting that you then attempt to hide in a group of your own fabrication by saying that nobody here knows either.

I have had enough experience with teachers and school administrators to trust them as much as I would a nest of rattlesnakes.

So my experience leans towards believing that teachers are out to brainwash children into being leftist minions.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> I've posted it but, here's a recap, just for you.
> 
> The survey, which has nothing at all to do with CRT by the way, was not required as was claimed in the OP. Parents could, and some did, opt their children out. The survey was not hidden from parents, as was claimed in the OP. It was conducted right out in the open via a Zoom session during distance learning. The children were not told they had to keep the questions secret from their parents as the OP claimed.


Do you have an actual link, or are we supposed to believe what you say is true? With your history of lying, I'll pass on your opinions.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The survey alone have no business in a 4th grade classroom.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

JeffreyD said:


> Do you have an actual link, or are we supposed to believe what you say is true? With your history of lying, I'll pass on your opinions.


The link is upthread. The one with the history of lying is staring at you in the mirror.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Or even half the story. But that doesn't matter to the folks here.


Do we need all the gory details I order to recognize this survey was performed? That in itself is attrocity!


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> The survey alone have no business in a 4th grade classroom.


Exactly!


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

painterswife said:


> The problem is that the OP is not the whole story.


Then enlighten us if you believe that to be the truth.

Otherwise you are just employing rhetoric with the intent to obfuscate.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Have you ever been concerned about something your child told you happened at school?


Yes, and I took the time to speak to the teacher. Turns out, each time, it was a simple misunderstanding. Some time the misunderstanding was on the part of my kid and sometimes it was on the part of the teacher. It's amazing how a simple conversation can clear things up.

What I didn't do was go screaming with my hair on fire to anyone who would listen. I took the time to get the facts.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)




----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Yes, and I took the time to speak to the teacher. Turns out, each time, it was a simple misunderstanding. Some time the misunderstanding was on the part of my kid and sometimes it was on the part of the teacher. It's amazing how a simple conversation can clear things up.
> 
> What I didn't do was go screaming with my hair on fire to anyone who would listen. I took the time to get the facts.


Sorry you misunderstood. I was directing the question at another poster.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Tom Horn said:


> Then enlighten us if you believe that to be the truth.
> 
> Otherwise you are just employing rhetoric with the intent to obfuscate.


The smoke bombs come out.
If you saw the videos and read the articles, you know there is a real problem. It isn't whether or not the problem exists, it is how severe the problems are.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Tom Horn said:


> At least you were honest enough to admit that you have no idea.
> 
> I do find it interesting that you then attempt to hide in a group of your own fabrication by saying that nobody here knows either.
> 
> ...


You only have your biased assumptions. You don't know the truth any more than I do.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

And you know that how?


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

SLFarmMI said:


> Or even half the story. But that doesn't matter to the folks here.



I am amazed that you possess the capacity to divine the intent of the heart of the readers/contributors on this board.

You missed your calling.

You should be travelling with Ringling Brothers as the all seeing eye replete with a crystal ball.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Tom Horn said:


> Then enlighten us if you believe that to be the truth.
> 
> Otherwise you are just employing rhetoric with the intent to obfuscate.


Note how what you saw and heard and read isn't supposed to be what you saw and heard and read. It is amusing how the level of scrutiny rises and falls depending on the topic.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> The link is upthread. The one with the history of lying is staring at you in the mirror.


I knew you couldn't. 
What, exactly have i lied about?
I can post yours here if you'd like???


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> You only have your biased assumptions. You don't know the truth any more than I do.


Are you denying a fourth grade student was asked what gender they identified as?


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

painterswife said:


> You only have your biased assumptions. You don't know the truth any more than I do.



You have no idea what I truly know, yet you jump to the conclusion that my experiences are "Biased assumptions."

You should put down the flame thrower, you are a hazard to everyone.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Yes, and I took the time to speak to the teacher. Turns out, each time, it was a simple misunderstanding. Some time the misunderstanding was on the part of my kid and sometimes it was on the part of the teacher. It's amazing how a simple conversation can clear things up.
> 
> What I didn't do was go screaming with my hair on fire to anyone who would listen. I took the time to get the facts.


Do they trust you when you send in your bill, or is there some kind of audit and verification process?

I am sure you would not pad your numbers, heck, I bet they can't believe how much propaganda you post per day. It is impressive.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

GTX63 said:


> Note how what you saw and heard and read isn't supposed to be what you saw and heard and read. It is amusing how the level of scrutiny rises and falls depending on the topic.



It's the old, "I know, that you think you know, what you thought I said, but what I said was not necessarily what I meant."

Or there's always.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Tom Horn said:


> It's the old, "I know, that you think you know, what you thought I said, but what I said was not necessarily what I meant."
> 
> Or there's always.


What you are seeing is celebration parallax.
Forming opinions, using the same fact pattern, to come to two different conclusions and both typically immediately.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> The link is upthread. The one with the history of lying is staring at you in the mirror.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yeah, the grade schooleese clicked when I read it too.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> Do they trust you when you send in your bill, or is there some kind of audit and verification process?
> 
> I am sure you would not pad your numbers, heck, I bet they can't believe how much propaganda you post per day. It is impressive.


It is possible that the underwriter's TOS prohibits any variation outside of the prepared cards.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

GTX63 said:


> What you are seeing is celebration parallax.
> Forming opinions, using the same fact pattern, to come to two different conclusions and both typically immediately.


Interesting.



> *The Celebration Parallax*
> 
> A parallax is the apparent difference in position of the same object seen from different vantage points. For instance, an analogue speedometer that reads sixty miles per hour to the driver, but fifty to the passenger—even though the needle itself is only in one place.
> 
> ...


----------



## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

I don't particularly care if they ask my child what his sexual orientation is. The problem is them telling the child not to tell the parents what is going on in the classroom. I'm not OK with that. I put a lot of effort into working with my child every evening to make sure he understood what was taught that day.

I don't think they would learn much by asking my child about his sexual orientation. . By the 4th grade my kid was a bit of a smartazz and was just as likely to tell them he self-identified as a giraffe. If they waited a few more years he would insist he identified as female and should be allowed to shower in the girls' locker room.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Tom Horn said:


> Interesting.


But when the posted speed limit is 25.....


----------



## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

Charter schools sometimes can offer another route. Several of our kids attended a charter school where we were able to pick the curriculum and methods. If materials contained religious material, we had to pay for them ourselves. Once or twice a week our child could attend enrichment classes, although not mandatory. So they ended up with a public school diploma even though it was homeschool for the most part. It was a nice setup.


----------



## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

I'd sure like to read the survey questions so I could see whether I should be upset about the survey or not. Anyone have a link to the actual survey questions that kids were asked?


----------



## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

MichaelZ said:


> Charter schools sometimes can offer another route. Several of our kids attended a charter school where we were able to pick the curriculum and methods. If materials contained religious material, we had to pay for them ourselves. Once or twice a week our child could attend enrichment classes, although not mandatory. So they ended up with a public school diploma even though it was homeschool for the most part. It was a nice setup.


Sounds like a good way to go.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

For anyone who is actually interested, this is a link to the Iowa school equity survey with links to the actual survey questions. 





__





Error 404 - Page Not Found






www.iowacityschools.org


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Evons hubby said:


> But when the posted speed limit is 25.....


Let's look at that.

"A parallax is the apparent difference in position of the same object seen from different vantage points. For instance, an analogue speedometer that reads sixty miles per hour to the driver, but fifty to the passenger—even though the needle itself is only in one place."

So the question then becomes would the parallax defense hold up in court?

Hmmm... * strokes whiskers *


----------



## doozie (May 21, 2005)

I've seen Equity Survey questions online.
Not being asked in my Small School Dist. yet

Some schools provide the questions asked, some don't.
Some include a parental permission form, some don't.
Most state the survey is voluntary and you can opt not to answer any question you don't want to. Including a blurb on the Equity Alliance MN website.
So far I've seen no questions that I would have a problem with my child answering.

Why there was no permission form and the date of the survey and the questions were not available and provided before and after the survey is questionable, since I've now seen them provided for some other schools with a quIck search.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I remember those surveys from school. They never changed anything but some data mining company made lots of money selling the information.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Sorry you misunderstood. I was directing the question at another poster.


Then perhaps you should have addressed that member in your post. Otherwise it is an open question to any who want to answer.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Tom Horn said:


> I am amazed that you possess the capacity to divine the intent of the heart of the readers/contributors on this board.
> 
> You missed your calling.
> 
> You should be travelling with Ringling Brothers as the all seeing eye replete with a crystal ball.


When they repeatedly ignore facts that are presented, it isn't difficult. Did you bother to read the superintendent's statement? Nope, you just go with personal attacks.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Do they trust you when you send in your bill, or is there some kind of audit and verification process?
> 
> I am sure you would not pad your numbers, heck, I bet they can't believe how much propaganda you post per day. It is impressive.


More personal attacks because you can't discuss the issue and you know it. Not surprising.


----------



## mamagoose (Nov 28, 2003)

GTX63 said:


> Didn't seem that the teacher showed much courtesy by telling those kids to keep their mouths shut to their moms and dads, now did she?


"moms and dads" ... surely the teacher didn't use such abhorrent identity language!


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Danaus29 said:


> For anyone who is actually interested, this is a link to the Iowa school equity survey with links to the actual survey questions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe you put the wrong link in, there no are no questions.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

doozie said:


> I've seen Equity Survey questions online.
> Not being asked in my Small School Dist. yet
> 
> Some schools provide the questions asked, some don't.
> ...


The questions were not provided because the company that wrote the survey declared them to be proprietary and would not release them. That is in the link I provided upthread. 

There was probably no permission form because the survey was not an opt in but was an opt out. In my experience, schools only do permission forms if something is an opt in activity.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

no really said:


> Maybe you put the wrong link in, there no are no questions.


Scroll down, below the FAQ page. The links are there.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Danaus29 said:


> Scroll down, below the FAQ page. The links are there.


So those are the proprietary questions, why are they not being provided to the new school admin?


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

That I cannot answer. It may be a different company, state laws might be different, the Iowa company doesn't have good lawyers, or a whole slew of other reasons.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Data mining fourth graders. Telling the parents they can opt out without telling them what they are opting out of. Introducing fourth graders to bull stuff that a school (government entity) has NO business telling them about. 

There is NO defense for this. At all. Disgusting. Reprehensible. 

A significant portion of our citizens have lost their way.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Tar and feathers. Stockpile them, because the demand will exceed the supply.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Data mining fourth graders. Telling the parents they can opt out without telling them what they are opting out of. Introducing fourth graders to bull stuff that a school (government entity) has NO business telling them about.
> 
> There is NO defense for this. At all. Disgusting. Reprehensible.
> 
> *A significant portion of our citizens have lost their way.*


Too many residents who should be citizens have demoted themselves to subjects for either a temporary subsidy or temporary perceived safety or the promise of such.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> For anyone who is actually interested, this is a link to the Iowa school equity survey with links to the actual survey questions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you.
What i read( all 18 pages for 2021) was a guide for depressing kids. No questions regarding the great times kids are having like..."did you have a great time playing with your multicultural friends today?" Or "are you happy about the A you got in math?"
The questions were of this type..."were you bullied at school today? "Did you want to hurt yourself because anothet student got a higher grade than you did?".
A lot of these questions are none of the schools business. Some may be, but not all 18 pages are needed. I viewed them as very intrusive and not necessary for the school to function equitably. 
Ymmv...


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Data mining fourth graders. Telling the parents they can opt out without telling them what they are opting out of. Introducing fourth graders to bull stuff that a school (government entity) has NO business telling them about.
> 
> There is NO defense for this. At all. Disgusting. Reprehensible.


Yes Alice, it is disgusting.
You are the first teacher in this thread to call it for what it is.

It should be heartbreaking when the purpose of a public teacher is to do right by children, and yet we hear nothing about them by the one given that charge.
If any good can come from a dumpster fire of a thread like this, it is that folks here at HT can see what is currently passing for education in the United States, and some of the people passing as educators. Pay heed people. There are plenty more out there and they have your kids attention for more time than many of you do.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Yes Alice, it is disgusting.
> You are the first teacher in this thread to call it for what it is.
> 
> It should be heartbreaking when the purpose of a public teacher is to do right by children, and yet we hear nothing about them by the one given that charge.
> If any good can come from a dumpster fire of a thread like this, it is that folks here at HT can see what is currently passing for education in the United States, and some of the people passing as educators. Pay heed people. There are plenty more out there and they have your kids attention for more time than many of you do.


Oh, for crying out loud! How many times do you need to be told that the "article" in the OP got it wrong? Did you read the statement from the superintendent?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Hiro said:


> Tar and feathers. Stockpile them, because the demand will exceed the supply.


Imagine if Johnny went to school Monday with a bruise on his arm and he's honked off at his dad for not buying him the PS5 he's been whining about for a month. Never mind that the bully no one does anything about put the bruise there as he was shaking him down for lunch money before 1st period.
The teacher sees the mark and asks him if that happened at home.
Child Services would be there on their doorstep tootsweet.
Who needs the whole story? Shoot now and ask questions later.
But when the school is accused, by it's own students of pulling a fast one on the parents, well, then the lawyers come out, the slow walk starts on details, and the union ticks hit the chat room and start frothing out the spin control.

Once I see that kids are put behind politics, unions, pensions and jobs, I too start thinking about a few old feathery turkeys I may have better use for and the half bucket of driveway sealer in the barn..


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Oh, for crying out loud! How many times do you need to be told that the "article" in the OP got it wrong? Did you read the statement from the superintendent?


Just for the record, please tell us the kids are lying.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)




----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> Are you denying a fourth grade student was asked what gender they identified as?


That detail isn't important.
All you need to know is that they aren't teaching CRT. Got it?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Just to keep a bearing, here is a portion of the OP.

Here is a quote from the video of the student, a female as she gives her statement to the group.

_Haylee said students were also told they were not permitted to “repeat any of the questions to our parents.”

“Being asked to hide this from my mom made me very uncomfortable, like I was doing something wrong,” Haylee told the school board.

No one should make your kids uncomfortable to talk to you, not an adult and not a school teacher._


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Are you denying a fourth grade student was asked what gender they identified as?


So what? Bet they were also asked what grade they were in and their race. They may even have been asked if they had a disability. It's called demographics. It's information you need so you can disaggregate the data in your report. Big deal.

I realize you want to pretend that homosexual, transgender, gender fluid and questioning kids don't exist but the fact is that they do. Even in the elementary school. Regardless of how you feel about it, they exist and maybe we should stop trying to pretend that they don't.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Just a comment here, based on my experience with the educational system. 

I am disappointed that we haven’t heard from any teachers in that district who stood up against the survey and refused to administer it.

Most of the teachers that I knew were dependent on that paycheck and had no other way to earn a living. Four or five years of college is an investment of money and time that is difficult to walk away from. I know of ONE of my college classmates who realized in her last semester that classroom instruction wasn’t what she wanted to do. She got a job in a bank.

I taught fifteen years, invested my income and got out of education when I could afford to. It was already a mess in 2004. My friends who stayed were trapped by economics.

The only hope that people have for countering this travesty is to homeschool, pay huge amounts for private school, or form home school pods in their communities.

My son is fighting the system in a local district as a parent, advocating for truth, logic, reason, and freedom. I worry about his blood pressure.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

SLFarmMI said:


> I realize you want to pretend that homosexual, transgender, gender fluid and questioning kids don't exist but the fact is that they do. Even in the elementary school. Regardless of how you feel about it, they exist and maybe we should stop trying to pretend that they don't.


That is a ridiculous statement. What is inappropriate is ASKING FOURTH GRADE CHILDREN in school about their sexuality. It is NOT a demographic that pertains to education.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> That is a ridiculous statement. What is inappropriate is ASKING FOURTH GRADE CHILDREN in school about their sexuality. It is NOT a demographic that pertains to education.


Not at all. Hate to break it to you but that demographic does exist at the elementary school level. Had a student who was questioning his gender identity a couple of years ago. When I had him, he was identifying as male. The year before in his prior school, he was identifying as female. He was figuring out his identity which is his to figure out not anyone's to tell him. So, a question about gender identity (which is not the same thing as sexuality) is not inappropriate.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

SLFarmMI said:


> When they repeatedly ignore facts that are presented, it isn't difficult. Did you bother to read the superintendent's statement? Nope, you just go with personal attacks.


I do not ignore facts.

And I 100% stand behind what I said about your penchant for hip-shooting clairvoyance.

With your snot-nosed arrogance there is no telling how many young lives you have permanently warped in your role as teacher.



I did not read the superintendent's email until you made me aware of it, so I found it and read it.

The superintendent said, “The context that was shared – which may have been misinterpreted by *students and/or staff* – was that students were asked to answer the questions related to their own personal experience and that their answers should reflect their own personal perceptions and not those of classmates, friends or family members.” 

So there was room for misinterpretation by teachers and students, indicating a lackadaisical attitude about clarity.

A case of the blind leading the blind, except that the state requires that innocent children be driven into the ditch by blind guides posing as educators.

The article also states, "Ridlehoover, who took over as superintendent on July 1, renewed the request and Equity Alliance agreed to send a link to people who had requested the questions. Then the consultants backed off on sharing the questions on advice of their counsel. Ridlehoover said the district continues to press for release of the questions."

So you mean to tell me that the school district did not already have a copy of the questions on file? 

That smacks of two things, incompetence and complicity in an agenda.

Sartell-St. Stephen school district responds to equity audit questions with email to parents - The Newsleaders


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I did NOT say that gender identity doesn’t exist. I said it is outside the scope of responsibility for our schools.

Please stop acting all holy about the topic. No one is in denial.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I did NOT say that gender identity doesn’t exist. I said it is outside the scope of responsibility for our schools.
> 
> Please stop acting all holy about the topic. No one is in denial.


No, you got all indignant that a question about how a student self-identifies was asked. It is absolutely a relevant demographic when seeking to disaggregate raw data. You want a complete picture of the students you have so that you can see possible patterns when you do disaggregate that data. 

No one is "acting all holy" but there are plenty of people losing their minds before getting the facts.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I am indignant that the survey was done. AT ALL.

I am getting indignant that your misinterpretations of my clear statements continue.

Gender identity has no relevance in the school curriculum. It is not data that needs to be acquired or disaggregated. I have sat on those committees many times. They do NOTHING to improve education, even without the gender identity issue.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Tom Horn said:


> I do not ignore facts.
> 
> And I 100% stand behind what I said about your penchant for hip-shooting clairvoyance.
> 
> ...


Oh, you ignore plenty of facts. And you let your bias blind you to the facts. You jumped right into this thread with the assumption that the OP was correct. It took me less than 10 minutes to find the facts that disproved what the "article" presented stated.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I am indignant that the survey was done. AT ALL.
> 
> I am getting indignant that your misinterpretations of my clear statements continue.



Alice,

It's called Gaslighting.

Narcissistic types are experts at it.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You are right.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Oh, for crying out loud! How many times do you need to be told that the "article" in the OP got it wrong? Did you read the statement from the superintendent?


Are you saying a fourth grade student was not asked to state their gender identity preference?


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

SLFarmMI said:


> Oh, you ignore plenty of facts. And you let your bias blind you to the facts. You jumped right into this thread with the assumption that the OP was correct. It took me less than 10 minutes to find the facts that disproved what the "article" presented stated.


It would appear the you are more suited to brow beating children into submission, because you lack the debating skills to engage adults.

If you would have actually taken the time to read the response of mine that you quoted you would have seen that there were several obvious holes in the superintendent's attempted exoneration of himself and his school district.

And I quote. 



Tom Horn said:


> I do not ignore facts.
> 
> And I 100% stand behind what I said about your penchant for hip-shooting clairvoyance.
> 
> ...


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not at all. Hate to break it to you but that demographic does exist at the elementary school level. Had a student who was questioning his gender identity a couple of years ago. When I had him, he was identifying as male. The year before in his prior school, he was identifying as female. He was figuring out his identity which is his to figure out not anyone's to tell him. So, a question about gender identity (which is not the same thing as sexuality) is not inappropriate.


That scary thing about this post is that I think you actually beleive it.... and are allowed to be in the presence of children!


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Tom Horn said:


> It would appear the you are more suited to brow beating children into submission, because you lack the debating skills to engage adults.
> 
> If you would have actually taken the time to read the response of mine that you quoted you would have seen that there were several obvious holes in the superintendent's attempted exoneration of himself and his school district.
> 
> And I quote.


Those "holes" are your opinion based heavily on your biases. 

It appears that you lack the debating skills to engage adults because you can't debate the issues without personal attacks and insults.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, you got all indignant that a question about how a student self-identifies was asked. It is absolutely a relevant demographic when seeking to disaggregate raw data. You want a complete picture of the students you have so that you can see possible patterns when you do disaggregate that data.
> 
> No one is "acting all holy" but there are plenty of people losing their minds before getting the facts.


Please tell me how a students gender is ”relevant” to their ability to learn reading, writing, arithmetic?


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> That scary thing about this post is that I think you actually beleive it.... and are allowed to be in the presence of children!


The scary thing is that you don't understand demographics. You collect data on all groups so you can properly disaggregate the data and interpret the data. Whether you want to admit it or not, there are children in school who do not identify as their birth gender. Those kids are just as important as those who do identify as their birth gender and their demographic should be represented in the data.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> The scary thing is that you don't understand demographics. You collect data on all groups so you can properly disaggregate the data and interpret the data. Whether you want to admit it or not, there are children in school who do not identify as their birth gender. Those kids are just as important as those who do identify as their birth gender and their demographic should be represented in the data.


How exactly does it make one iota of difference in a a child’s learning ability?


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Please tell me how a students gender is ”relevant” to their ability to learn reading, writing, arithmetic?


Maybe if I type slowly you'll get it. This was an equity survey. The purpose is to determine if different groups within a district are being treated equitably within that district. It can cover a wide variety of topics such as discipline, bullying, distribution of resources, etc. In order to interpret how different groups are experiencing school, you have to know what groups you have. That requires collecting demographic data. Gender identity is just one piece of demographic data.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> How exactly does it make one iota of difference in a a child’s learning ability?


Again, this wasn't a survey about learning ability. It was an equity survey. If you are unclear about what that is, try Google.


----------



## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

SLFarmMI said:


> Maybe if I type slowly you'll get it. This was an equity survey. The purpose is to determine if different groups within a district are being treated equitably within that district. It can cover a wide variety of topics such as discipline, bullying, distribution of resources, etc. In order to interpret how different groups are experiencing school, you have to know what groups you have. That requires collecting demographic data. Gender identity is just one piece of demographic data.


In other words, it has zero bit of relevance to how or what the students are learning. Forgive me for being under the impression that kids went to school to learn, instead of being mined for data. Or are these surveys a covert way to "teach" kids?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Again, this wasn't a survey about learning ability. It was an equity survey. If you are unclear about what that is, try Google.


If it doesn’t teach a child.... it shouldn’t be in school... kinda like some teachers.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Of course it was covert. They asked questions that were inappropriate in order to introduce concepts that don’t belong in the curriculum.

The young girl who spoke up is the heroine here. She knew it was wrong. She knew the admonition given to her was wrong. She let her mother know about it.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Maybe if I type slowly you'll get it. This was an equity survey. The purpose is to determine if different groups within a district are being treated equitably within that district. It can cover a wide variety of topics such as discipline, bullying, distribution of resources, etc. In order to interpret how different groups are experiencing school, you have to know what groups you have. That requires collecting demographic data. Gender identity is just one piece of demographic data.


Please type slower and tell me which demographic group it is that the hypotenuse of a right triangle is not equal to the square root of the sum of the two sides.... or that the war of 1812 was not fought in 1812...
those things should be taught to all demographics. Or are you saying our schools and teachers aren’t teaching all our students On an equal basis? I do not recall any of my teachers neglecting any of us Based on our demographics.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

I think many are missing a very important point and the issue of the whole survey. 

People need to keep in mind that there is a difference in equity and equality. The schools have students that some are claiming to be treated differently and/ or are behind on their education. It seems some wish those students that are behind to have additional resources to catch up or to be treated more fairly. Thats hard to do without it being at a cost for the rest of the students, who as a result are having resources withheld from them. Argue if you wish on this statement but its fact. 

So do we allow students to excel that can, or do we sort of dumb the whole group down to a more even level? It’s being done in a variety of schools.

Pick a search engine of your choice. Here is a link for those that desire them to be in a post. 









Holding Students Back In The Name Of Equity Only Increases Injustice


We can fight wokeness by pushing excellence, an effort that is greatly advanced by tracking students through the use of advanced placement classes.




thefederalist.com


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

SLFarmMI said:


> Those "holes" are your opinion based heavily on your biases.
> 
> It appears that you lack the debating skills to engage adults because you can't debate the issues without personal attacks and insults.


You say that my conclusions are my opinion based heavily on bias.

I say that a reasonable person could easily have come to the same conclusions as I did.

And I quote.

"The superintendent said, “The context that was shared – which may have been misinterpreted by *students and/or staff* – was that students were asked to answer the questions related to their own personal experience and that their answers should reflect their own personal perceptions and not those of classmates, friends or family members.” 

So there was room for misinterpretation by teachers and students, indicating a lackadaisical attitude about clarity.

A case of the blind leading the blind, except that the state requires that innocent children be driven into the ditch by blind guides posing as educators.

The article also states, "Ridlehoover, who took over as superintendent on July 1, renewed the request and Equity Alliance agreed to send a link to people who had requested the questions. Then the consultants backed off on sharing the questions on advice of their counsel. Ridlehoover said the district continues to press for release of the questions."

So you mean to tell me that the school district did not already have a copy of the questions on file? 

That smacks of two things, incompetence and complicity in an agenda."

Thank you for tossing back to me what I said to you about lacking the debating skills to engage adults.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and/or exposes a dearth of capacity for individual thought.



Tom Horn said:


> It would appear the you are more suited to brow beating children into submission, *because you lack the debating skills to engage adults.*


For one who doles out pointless, unfounded, asinine hyperbole with a scoop shovel, you certainly are hyper-sensitive to criticism.

To you, everything is a personal attack, everything is a personal insult, everybody's out to get poor little you. 

Here ya go, this should be about your speed.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

I am so sorry I opened and read this thread. What a disgusting state of affairs our education system has become. Whoever authorized this survey of fourth grade children should be publicly beaten and fired. If you want to mine this sort of information do it outside of the classroom. Use our tax funded school system to teach children how to read, write, do math, and think.

As for cameras, why don't we just make sure we have 360 degree, 24/7 coverage for everybody on the planet? Let me call George Orwell and ask what he thinks.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

The survey is data mining for profit and will accomplish little to nothing in the way of improving how children are managed in public schools. These surveys have been done for years and nothing ever comes back to the school district about how the children feel they are being treated.

I find it ironic that diversity, equality and inclusion education is being supported yet basic life skills mathematic instruction is not.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> That detail isn't important.
> All you need to know is that they aren't teaching CRT. Got it?


LMAO!!!
YOU'RE DONE!!!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

The longer the state and federal government's count the differences between us the longer we will have systemic bigotry. They are the only systemic force behind this. The rest of us could care less who is what. 

But they do it so we do it. At least the ones that think the government is the end all be all authority anyway. 

I was in school 40 years ago and refused to answer those questions back then. Got sent to the office once over it. I told the principal then that info had no bearing on learning. He just said but they want us to do it. Why? I don't know they just do. 

If the government told people to sit naked in a briar patch I think there would be a lot of sore bottoms in this world.


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## tripletmom (Feb 4, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> So what? Bet they were also asked what grade they were in and their race. They may even have been asked if they had a disability. It's called demographics. It's information you need so you can disaggregate the data in your report. Big deal.
> 
> I realize you want to pretend that homosexual, transgender, gender fluid and questioning kids don't exist but the fact is that they do. Even in the elementary school. Regardless of how you feel about it, they exist and maybe we should stop trying to pretend that they don't.


BS!!!!
Just because 4th grade Johnny likes to play with dolls and wear pink does NOT make him a girl and grownups have no business convincing him that he is!!! They should be playing and learning 4th grade stuff, not sex stuff!!!

I did read the questions and they indicated the gender and sexuality answers for 'other than straight' are presented to 7-12th graders, not 4th graders.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

When you let the government do your thinking for you:









Chinese farmer who praised lawyers sentenced to 18 years


A prominent Chinese pig farmer who was detained after praising lawyers during a crackdown on legal activists by President Xi Jinping’s government has been sentenced to 18 years in prison on charges of organizing an attack on officials and other offenses




abcnews.go.com


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

tripletmom said:


> BS!!!!
> Just because 4th grade Johnny likes to play with dolls and wear pink does NOT make him a girl and grownups have no business convincing him that he is!!! They should be playing and learning 4th grade stuff, not sex stuff!!!
> 
> I did read the questions and they indicated the gender and sexuality answers for 'other than straight' are presented to 7-12th graders, not 4th graders.


Asking what gender a child identifies with is not learning "sex stuff" nor is it adults "convincing him that he is" a girl. You have no idea what gender Johnny identifies with because that isn't your job to determine. It's Johnny's.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> Asking what gender a child identifies with is not learning "sex stuff" nor is it adults "convincing him that he is" a girl. You have no idea what gender Johnny identifies with because that isn't your job to determine. It's Johnny's.


Makes sense, than it isn't the schools or a data mining operation to determine or question. It's Johnny's.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Asking what gender a child identifies with is not learning "sex stuff" nor is it adults "convincing him that he is" a girl. You have no idea what gender Johnny identifies with because that isn't your job to determine. It's Johnny's.


You racked up on this thread.

I am still amazed they pay you to repeat such simple statements, over and over like you do. It is too bad all of their positions are filled right now. 

Do you have some type of time limit on the position, or is it like tenure, an honorarium for life kind of thing?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Tom Horn said:


> You say that my conclusions are my opinion based heavily on bias.
> 
> I say that a reasonable person could easily have come to the same conclusions as I did.
> 
> ...


As I stated, you continue to prove that lack the ability to debate the issue. That some may have misinterpreted the directions on the survey in no way indicates a "lackadaisical attitude about clarity". People in all walks of life misinterpret things on a daily basis and it has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that they made a mistake.

It is perfectly reasonable for a private company to want to keep their survey questions in house. It doesn't "smack" of incompetence or an agenda. That's your bias talking because, to you, every school, every teacher is the enemy.

And, yeah, you go off the rails when challenged.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

RJ2019 said:


> In other words, it has zero bit of relevance to how or what the students are learning. Forgive me for being under the impression that kids went to school to learn, instead of being mined for data. Or are these surveys a covert way to "teach" kids?


It is not a data mining exercise. Nor is it a "covert way" to do anything. An equity survey is a tool that school districts use to look for possible inequities and/or disproportionalities in their systems. Then they use that information to look into their procedures/systems to see if adjustments need to be made.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Asking what gender a child identifies with is not learning "sex stuff" nor is it adults "convincing him that he is" a girl. You have no idea what gender Johnny identifies with because that isn't your job to determine. It's Johnny's.


Exactly, it’s Johnny’s business... not the schools!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> It is not a data mining exercise. Nor is it a "covert way" to do anything. An equity survey is a tool that school districts use to look for possible inequities and/or disproportionalities in their systems. Then they use that information to look into their procedures/systems to see if adjustments need to be made.


Why not look at grades, test scores? Maybe even, heaven forbid, Teach the kids!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Exactly, it’s Johnny’s business... not the schools!


Tell me, exactly how do you think the school will disaggregate raw data without basic demographic information? Raw data tells you nothing without the analysis behind it and that requires disaggregation.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Tell me exactly how knowing Johnny’s gender preference will change how you teach him math.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Tell me, exactly how do you think the school will disaggregate raw data without basic demographic information? Raw data tells you nothing without the analysis behind it and that requires disaggregation.


This ”data” is irreverent to the business of education.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Why not look at grades, test scores? Maybe even, heaven forbid, Teach the kids!


Because grades and test scores can only tell you so much. They can't tell you, for example, if your MTSS system (that stands for Multi-Tiered Systems of Support and is an academic & behavior intervention system) is skewed either toward or against a particular group. They can't tell you if you anything about disproportionality in one of your programs. They can't tell you if a particular group is being isolated or singled out.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Your multi tiered system of support sucks. That would be the cliff note.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

A kid can't count or read or write and yet there is time for surveys and data mining. mmmm


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> This ”data” is irreverent to the business of education.


You are wrong. Data is very relevant to education.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Because grades and test scores can only tell you so much. They can't tell you, for example, if your MTSS system (that stands for Multi-Tiered Systems of Support and is an academic & behavior intervention system) is skewed either toward or against a particular group. They can't tell you if you anything about disproportionality in one of your programs. They can't tell you if a particular group is being isolated or singled out.


Are you suggesting teachers are isolating or singling out certain demographics? Shame on them!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> This ”data” is irreverent to the business of education.


I'm not sure you meant it that way but it truly has become a business.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Did the girl lie on the video?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> You are wrong. Data is very relevant to education.


Some data is. This data is not.at least you’ve yet to show any relevance.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> You racked up on this thread.
> 
> I am still amazed they pay you to repeat such simple statements, over and over like you do. It is too bad all of their positions are filled right now.
> 
> Do you have some type of time limit on the position, or is it like tenure, an honorarium for life kind of thing?





SLFarmMI said:


> Asking what gender a child identifies with is not learning "sex stuff" nor is it adults "convincing him that he is" a girl. You have no idea what gender Johnny identifies with because that isn't your job to determine. It's Johnny's.


If Johnny has a penis, then he is a boy.
Surely an educator would know such a thing.
A parent's job is all inclusive to their child.
A teacher has no business saying it isn't.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> I'm not sure you meant it that way but it truly has become a business.


True, but it shouldn’t be.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> Some data is. This data is not.at least you’ve yet to show any relevance.


It wasn't relevant. What was relevant was that the girl in the video was told not to tell her parents.
There was also a follow up link from another member where the teacher had two sets of curriculum; one for the kids to use and the other to give to the parents. In other words, that teacher also instructed her class to lie to their parents.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> If Johnny has a penis, then he is a boy.
> Surely an educator would know such a thing.
> A parent's job is all inclusive to their child.
> A teacher has no business saying it isn't.


Therein lies the problem... apparently some educators do not know these details, some of whom post in this forum even!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> True, but it shouldn’t be.


It isn't always. There are good people in the system. I am related to several.
They would be ashamed (and upset) of the antics from one of their fellow educators if they saw this thread.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> Therein lies the problem... apparently some educators do not know thes details, some who post in this forum even!


Yes, such as intervening between the child and their parents without the parent's knowledge, at least until they are exposed.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> It isn't always. There are good people in the system. I am related to several.
> They would be ashamed (and upset) of the antics from one of their fellow educators if they saw this thread.


Yup, but sadly more and more of these not well informed players are getting in the game.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Some data is. This data is not.at least you’ve yet to show any relevance.


Well, since the survey indicated problems with their MTSS system, services toward non-native English speakers and bullying, I'd say the district found it rather relevant.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Some members would do well to get all the facts on an issue before losing their minds over it. The claims made in the "article" in the OP were shown not to be accurate and yet some members continue to push them.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> Some members would do well to get all the facts on an issue before losing their minds over it. The claims made in the "article" in the OP were shown not to be accurate and yet some members continue to push them.


And yet we keep hearing from you. Just an opinion 🤣 🤣 🤣


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Seems the parents believed her enough for her to go into a public forum in front of her peers and repeat it. I wonder if her classmates have been on the record stating that she lied.
Is the girl lying?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Well, since the survey indicated problems with their MTSS system, services toward non-native English speakers and bullying, I'd say the district found it rather relevant.


So non native English speaking students weren’t up to par with their native English speaking counterparts.,,, and regular teachers were clueless about why! I’d say those district leaders and the teachers need replaced!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> So non native English speaking students weren’t up to par with their native English speaking counterparts.,,, and regular teachers were clueless about why! I’d say those district leaders and the teachers need replaced!


I'd say it's fairly obvious you don't know what you're talking about. The report is available on the district website. Why don't you read it?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

no really said:


> And yet we keep hearing from you. Just an opinion 🤣 🤣 🤣


Right, I keep forgetting that only opinions that line up with yours are allowed here.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Kids are not your priority.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> I'd say it's fairly obvious you don't know what you're talking about. The report is available on the district website. Why don't you read it?


Why waste my time? I already know that non English speaking students are not going to score up to par with their English speaking counterparts. I am also aware that kids bully other kids, no matter what demographic they happen to fit in. What I find very sad is that those in charge of our education systems are clueless about these very basic facts.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

SLFarmMI said:


> Tell me, exactly how do you think the school will disaggregate raw data without basic demographic information? Raw data tells you nothing without the analysis behind it and that requires disaggregation.


Why not just treat everyone equally? Problem solved


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

coolrunnin said:


> Why not just treat everyone equally? Problem solved


Gasp!!! How very conservative of you!


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

SLFarm. It appears that you believe that the district knowing a child’s sexual orientation is essential to the child learning to read, write, and do math.

Most of us in this conversation think that public schools (aka the government) have no business in the child’s sexual business.

The rest of the conversation is irrelevant.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Because grades and test scores can only tell you so much. They can't tell you, for example, if your MTSS system (that stands for Multi-Tiered Systems of Support and is an academic & behavior intervention system) is *skewed either toward or against a particular group. *They can't tell you if you anything about disproportionality in one of your programs. *They can't tell you if a particular group is being isolated or singled out*.


Why not just stop putting people into different groups?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> SLFarm. It appears that you believe that the district knowing a child’s sexual orientation is essential to the child learning to read, write, and do math.
> 
> Most of us in this conversation think that public schools (aka the government) have no business in the child’s sexual business.
> 
> The rest of the conversation is irrelevant.


No, you are mistaken.

First, as I have said, gender identity and sexual orientation (which are two separate things, btw) are pieces of demographic data that help to disaggregate the raw data you are looking at. Raw data has no use without an interpretation of said data and you need to disaggregate it to do that interpretation. Being a former teacher, you should know that.

There is nothing about an equity survey that involves the school being "in the child's sexual business". Tell me, when you registered your kids for school (assuming you have them) did you mark the box that asked what gender they were? Was the school being in your kid's "sexual business"? No, of course not, and neither is asking them what gender they identify with. It's just a different way to ask the same question. It is a way to ask the question in a way that does not stigmatize those who don't identify the with the gender they had at birth. Those kids are just as important as any other kid in the building.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> SLFarm. It appears that you believe that the district knowing a child’s sexual orientation is essential to the child learning to read, write, and do math.
> 
> Most of us in this conversation think that public schools (aka the government) have no business in the child’s sexual business.
> 
> The rest of the conversation is irrelevant.


I would take it further than that. The government has no need to know any students race, ethnicity, religion in order to teach. We all use the same number system, the same alphabet, the same dictionary, the same history happened. Teach every one equally, time to stop the bigotry!


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> I have said, gender identity and sexual orientation (which are two separate things


So you, and our public education system tells us.

It ain't a fact, it is dogma.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, you are mistaken.
> 
> First, as I have said, gender identity and sexual orientation (which are two separate things, btw)


and have zero bearing upon a child’s ability to learn.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Where is the data that proves that data mining yields any positive results in the classroom?

The only purpose is to fatten the purses of the companies who generate the surveys.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Where is the data that proves that data mining yields any positive results in the classroom?


I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

coolrunnin said:


> Why not just treat everyone equally? Problem solved


You sure about that? Let's explore your, "just treat everyone equally" with a real life example.

Let's give textbooks to 4 kids. "Just treat everyone equally" says everyone gets the same textbook. Problem solved!
Um, no.
Kid 1 -- Textbook works just fine for this kid. No problem. Kid can use it to access the curriculum.
Kid 2 -- The textbook may as well be a paperweight. Kid can't read it. You see, Kid 2 is blind and reads Braille. "Just treat everyone equally" says too bad, everyone gets the same thing.
Kid 3 -- The textbook is useless to this kid as well. Kid 3 has severe dyslexia and can't access the text. Again, "Just treat everyone equally" says too bad, everyone gets the same thing.
Kid 4 -- Again, the textbook is useless to this kid. Kid 4 is a new immigrant and is not yet literate in English. Kid 4 is literate in her home language which is just too darn bad because "Just treat everyone equally" says everyone gets the same thing.
So, using your "Just treat everyone equally" idea, the only kid who is going to be able to access the curriculum using that textbook is Kid 1. Everyone else is just out of luck. But, hey, we're treating everyone equally so problem solved.

Equity says everyone gets what they need and we do what we can to remove the barriers to their learning. Equity gives Kid 1 the regular textbook, Kid 2 a Braille version, Kid 3 an audio version and Kid 4 a version in her home language. Now all kids can access the curriculum using the version of the textbook that is right for them. 

See the difference?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Observant school personnel would see the bullying happening. Sympathetic school personnel would make children feel safe about coming to them to talk about bullying or other school behaviour issues. Responsive teachers would listen when students say they are having problems with school work.

Fix the system and they won't need silly data mining surveys.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Where is the data that proves that data mining yields any positive results in the classroom?
> 
> The only purpose is to fatten the purses of the companies who generate the surveys.


Read the report. The purpose of the survey, which is not data mining, is to show the district where they may have inequities so they can make adjustments in their procedures/programs to yield positive results in the classroom.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting!


One might believe that after this latest public school induced mess they would learn from it. Sadly it will be the parents and kids that will have to become more sensitive to the crap this system is trying to run over them with.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> You sure about that? Let's explore your, "just treat everyone equally" with a real life example.
> 
> Let's give textbooks to 4 kids. "Just treat everyone equally" says everyone gets the same textbook. Problem solved!
> Um, no.
> ...


Yes, I see special treatment for special interests. I also see grasping at straws.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

No data mining and disaggregation will correct a situation in the classroom where a homophobic teacher or student mistreats someone.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Read the report. The purpose of the survey, which is not data mining, is to show the district where they may have inequities so they can make adjustments in their procedures/programs to yield positive results in the classroom.


An honest question here, not picking on you. But have you ever seen where the survey results have brought about a change in school policy?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Or significant improvements in the classroom?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

coolrunnin said:


> Why not just treat everyone equally? Problem solved


What an idea!!!

Wow, that is just ground breaking info. I wish we could have thought about that 50 years ago. 

All joking aside, we did but state and federal gov never got the memo.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> You sure about that? Let's explore your, "just treat everyone equally" with a real life example.
> 
> Let's give textbooks to 4 kids. "Just treat everyone equally" says everyone gets the same textbook. Problem solved!
> Um, no.
> ...


Do you believe that this survey is necessary to find out if a child is blind, dyslexic, or doesn't understand English? 

I think learning disabilities and challenges can be addressed without regard to race, gender, gender identity, etc. It's this criteria that many suggest should be ignored in the classroom.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> You sure about that? Let's explore your, "just treat everyone equally" with a real life example.
> 
> Let's give textbooks to 4 kids. "Just treat everyone equally" says everyone gets the same textbook. Problem solved!
> Um, no.
> ...


Not to be a smart ass but kids 2,3 and 4 can't take your survey either. So how will you find out what their gender "equity" is?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

coolrunnin said:


> Why not just treat everyone equally? Problem solved


In their own twisted way, they are treating them all equally. A non-racist, non-sexist teacher might see a classroom of 15 kids in front of them, all individual but equal. The progressive racist, sexist teacher looks and sees one black kid with a vagina, one brown kid with a penis who wishes it was a vagina, one privileged white kid who doesn’t deserve further description…. so on and so on. 

They feel that they need to characterize and define, label and segregate them all… equally.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Danaus29 said:


> An honest question here, not picking on you. But have you ever seen where the survey results have brought about a change in school policy?


Yes. There have been changes in policies/programs to reflect the results. My district was not providing adequate communication for our Hmong population which we saw when we looked at the results of the survey. That was the latest one.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> Do you believe that this survey is necessary to find out if a child is blind, dyslexic, or doesn't understand English?
> 
> I think learning disabilities and challenges can be addressed without regard to race, gender, gender identity, etc. It's this criteria that many suggest should be ignored in the classroom.


The survey, as has been stated before, is to look for areas within the system where there may be inequities or disproportionalities. The post you are quoting is a response to another poster's "let's give everyone the same thing" idea.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> Not to be a smart ass but kids 2,3 and 4 can't take your survey either. So how will you find out what their gender "equity" is?


Kids 2, 3, and 4 can indeed take the survey when it is presented to them in an equitable way.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> Kids 2, 3, and 4 can indeed take the survey when it is presented to them in an equitable way.


What about if kid #2 is black? Did the survey come out in black Braille? Do they take the time to inform the blind white kids that they’re privileged and should feel horrible about themselves? Do they know which version they’re supposed to get if you don’t tell them?

When they act up, do you guys sometimes tell the blind black kids that they’re white and privileged? Be honest, now.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Yes. There have been changes in policies/programs to reflect the results. My district was not providing adequate communication for our Hmong population which we saw when we looked at the results of the survey. That was the latest one.


Now, how was the Hmong community being shorted on communication and why? Could that demographic not been helped by common sense approaches or was the survey necessary to pick up on their gender identity preferences first? Lastly why do you think the Hmong community have so many folks confused about their gender identity?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Be honest, now.


You should reread her responses.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Kids 2, 3, and 4 can indeed take the survey when it is presented to them in an equitable way.


If they can't read the book then they can't read the survey. 

You have had to identify this inequity before you ask them if they think they are.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

SLFarm. You didn’t answer my question. I asked about RESULTS.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

SLFarmMI said:


> As I stated, you continue to prove that lack the ability to debate the issue. That some may have misinterpreted the directions on the survey in no way indicates a "lackadaisical attitude about clarity". People in all walks of life misinterpret things on a daily basis and it has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that they made a mistake.
> 
> It is perfectly reasonable for a private company to want to keep their survey questions in house. It doesn't "smack" of incompetence or an agenda. That's your bias talking because, to you, every school, every teacher is the enemy.
> 
> And, yeah, you go off the rails when challenged.



School systems tend to crucify children for making mistakes, so I do hold them to a higher standard of perfection because they demand it from children.

You appear to have great difficulty in reading comprehension.

My response stated that I found the school system to be incompetent for not having kept a copy of the questions on file, not that the company in question failed to release them.

Once again, those who demand perfection from children should themselves set the example of excellence, rather than incompetence.

Please give a reference where I have, "Gone off the rails when challenged."

Go ahead, I'll wait.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> What about if kid #2 is black? Did the survey come out in black Braille? Do they take the time to inform the blind white kids that they’re privileged and should feel horrible about themselves? Do they know which version they’re supposed to get if you don’t tell them?
> 
> When they act up, do you guys sometimes tell the blind black kids that they’re white and privileged? Be honest, now.


You have a very active imagination. Do you write books or do you just write fiction here at HT? None of what you imagine is happening in school actually is so why don't you get back to me when you are interested in reality?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> SLFarm. You didn’t answer my question. I asked about RESULTS.


Yes, I did answer your question. Identification of the possible inequities comes first, then any changes that are needed to programs/policies, then you will see results. That's basic, common sense. How are you going to fix a problem until you identify it? That is what this district is attempting to do -- identify any possible problems so that they can make changes where needed.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Tom Horn said:


> School systems tend to crucify children for making mistakes, so I do hold them to a higher standard of perfection because they demand it from children.
> 
> You appear to have great difficulty in reading comprehension.
> 
> ...


Don't let your supper get cold.
I think most here see the obvious. The system isn't going to change as long as the incompetents are allowed to continue.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Tom Horn said:


> School systems tend to crucify children for making mistakes, so I do hold them to a higher standard of perfection because they demand it from children.
> 
> You appear to have great difficulty in reading comprehension.
> 
> ...


Try starting on page 9 of this very thread.

Your belief that school systems "crucify children for making mistakes" or demand "perfection" of them is a product of your own admitted bias against school.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Don't let your supper get cold.
> I think most here see the obvious. The system isn't going to change as long as the incompetents are allowed to continue.


It would be nice if, just once, some posters here would take the very minimal amount of time required to find out the facts when yet another anti-education thread is started. The "article" in the OP was posted and, just like ducks, you got in a row agreeing with it. It isn't until page 3 that any poster other than myself went looking for the facts. Why do you constantly swallow these posts one after the other with no attempt to find the facts? That makes me curious.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Did the girl lie?


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

SLFarmMI said:


> Try starting on page 9 of this very thread.
> 
> Your belief that school systems "crucify children for making mistakes" or demand "perfection" of them is a product of your own admitted bias against school.


I said for you to give me an example, not some vague attempt to obfuscate and dodge the request.

And as for my feelings toward public education. 

I have a dead child as the result of the abuse of a public school teacher.

My contempt is the result of personal first-hand experience with dealing with the likes of arrogant "educators" just like you.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You are not curious. You are a rigid apologist without the capability to think outside of a failed system. You have shown a limited concern about serious issue and a poor response to honest questions.
You would not fit in a program designed to put children first and I think you know that.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Cha Ching


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Tom Horn said:


> I said for you to give me an example, not some vague attempt to obfuscate and dodge the request.
> 
> And as for my feelings toward public education.
> 
> ...


I too have dealt with them. Educators in our family have dealt with them.
They deny there is a dead cat on the porch while swatting away the flies.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You have no results. It just took you too many words to say so.

I was a classroom teacher. You, SLFarmer, have drunk someone’s koolade.

Your blather is no longer worth my time.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> You are not curious. You are a rigid apologist without the capability to think outside of a failed system. You have shown a limited concern about serious issue and a poor response to honest questions.
> You would not fit in a program designed to put children first and I think you know that.


First, I've answered these supposed "honest" questions with facts and the truth. Second, your "serious issue" as proposed in the OP was shown to be inaccurate. Third, you have shown no ability to think beyond your own set in stone belief of what you think is happening in school. When you are presented with facts that run contrary to what you want to believe, you ignore them or say something along the lines of "It doesn't fit what I believe so it can't be true".

You don't have a clue what it means to "put children first".


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

A classroom styled cadence doesn't work here.
When it comes to public education, you fail here and badly and most everyone here sees it. You don't have to if it makes you feel better.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

There is a pattern of members here who continually ask questions that you won't answer.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Did the girl who stood up in front of her peers at school lie?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> You have no results. It just took you too many words to say so.
> 
> I was a classroom teacher. You, SLFarmer, have drunk someone’s koolade.
> 
> Your blather is no longer worth my time.


How are they going to have results when they didn't get the report on the results of the survey until March? They are in the process of developing their plan based on those results. How is it that you don't understand that? How are they going to have classroom results based on the survey at this time? 

You claim to have been a classroom teacher but you don't seem to understand much about the topic.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You are always welcome to join in on discussions where related to problems in public schools across the country. You might try different approaches as each video and report is posted here as it may help with the patience of some of the folks who have to keep repeating questions to you.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Did the girl who stood up in front of her peers at school lie?


I believe she misunderstood.

Did you read the superintendent's comments or did you just watch the video and say to yourself, "yep, that confirms what I want to believe" and look no further?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> I believe she misunderstood.
> Did you read the superintendent's comments or did you just watch the video and say to yourself, "yep, that confirms what I want to believe" and look no further?


I'm glad you were able to recieve that post. I was beginning to think HT was glitching.
So, her parents and her friends allowed her to go forward based on a misunderstanding? No other students in the classroom tried to stop her?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Do you believe her parents may have approached the school at some point before sending her up there?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Just speculating, how do you believe she heard something different than what the teacher said, and none of her classmates thought to correct her?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

By page 17, you shouldn't have to go back to post #1 to review the girl's story before you respond. Just sayin...


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Just speculating, how do you believe she heard something different than what the teacher said, and none of her classmates thought to correct her?


Because that is not out of the ordinary for 4th graders. Students frequently hear something that you didn't say or misinterpret what you said. That's why I often have my students repeat the directions back to me so I know we are both on the same page. This teacher may or may not have done that. And children often don't correct each other on what the directions were. 

How is it that you believe a survey, which was conducted out in the open on Zoom where parents could have seen and heard everything that was going on, was being hidden from the parents? How is it that you believe that this survey was required when several families opted their children out?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

So, do you typically determine a child to be confused or misunderstood when they make a claim that may result in such an event as this?
Is it common in your school for parents to go forward as they did with little or no other information other than what their child told them?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I suppose another way to put it is- Would you allow your 4th grade level daughter to go in front of the school board and a gymnasium full of people and repeat a story that you believe to be a simple misunderstanding by her and only her?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> So, do you typically determine a child to be confused or misunderstood when they make a claim that may result in such an event as this?
> Is it common in your school for parents to go forward as they did with little or no other information other than what their child told them?


I can say it us quite normal. Parents take the word of the child when in fact the child got it wrong. I in fact had a coworker do exactly almost the same thing. She was quite embarrassed when the truth came out in the end.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> It would be nice if, just once, some posters here would take the very minimal amount of time required to find out the facts when yet another anti-education thread is started. The "article" in the OP was posted and, just like ducks, you got in a row agreeing with it. It isn't until page 3 that any poster other than myself went looking for the facts. Why do you constantly swallow these posts one after the other with no attempt to find the facts? That makes me curious.


This is NOT anti-education thread. It’s about certain unnecessary and unethical practices being conducted by our educators. I’m all for education, we could do with much more of it. The only “relative fact” needed is that this survey was done. It should not have been.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> I can say it us quite normal. Parents take the word of the child when in fact the child got it wrong. I in fact had a coworker do exactly almost the same thing. She was quite embarrassed when the truth came out in the end.


Has your child ever come to you and you determined she was just misunderstanding?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> This is NOT anti-education thread. It’s about certain unnecessary and unethical practices being conducted by our educators. I’m all for education, we could do with much more of it. The only “relative fact” needed is that this survey was done. It should not have been.


Nope. Should have taken the 80k and hired some qualified staff and a couple more buses.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> First, I've answered these supposed "honest" questions with facts and the truth. Second, your "serious issue" as proposed in the OP was shown to be inaccurate. Third, you have shown no ability to think beyond your own set in stone belief of what you think is happening in school. When you are presented with facts that run contrary to what you want to believe, you ignore them or say something along the lines of "It doesn't fit what I believe so it can't be true".
> 
> You don't have a clue what it means to "put children first".


Um, no, you didn’t really answer the question.... you began to then forgot to finish.... you stated that changes needed to be made in communication with the Hmong community.... but neglected to state what changes were actually made. I’d also be interested in wheather or not those changes have helped the Hmong students get back on track.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

GTX63 said:


> Has your child ever come to you and you determined she was just misunderstanding?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> I can say it us quite normal. Parents take the word of the child when in fact the child got it wrong. I in fact had a coworker do exactly almost the same thing. She was quite embarrassed when the truth came out in the end.


How can you say it is normal? You do not have kids


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Has your child ever come to you and you determined she was just misunderstanding?


I have had children in my care that have misunderstood what they thought someone said. I bet you have as well.it


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> How can you say it is normal? You do not have kids


?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Because that is not out of the ordinary for 4th graders. Students frequently hear something that you didn't say or misinterpret what you said. That's why I often have my students repeat the directions back to me so I know we are both on the same page. This teacher may or may not have done that. And children often don't correct each other on what the directions were.
> 
> How is it that you believe a survey, which was conducted out in the open on Zoom where parents could have seen and heard everything that was going on, was being hidden from the parents? How is it that you believe that this survey was required when several families opted their children out?


It’s not out of the ordinary for adults to misinterpret things either. Lot of innocent men have spent years in prison due to eyewitnesses who got it wrong. I somehow doubt that teachers and school administrators are any better.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> I have had children in my care that have misunderstood what they thought someone said. I bet you have as well.it


And a great many adults too.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> It’s not out of the ordinary for adults to misinterpret things either. Lot of innocent men have spent years in prison due to eyewitnesses who got it wrong. I somehow doubt that teachers and school administrators are any better.


So lets just put up a hypothetical.
A child in a 4th grade class of say 20 kids. Something disturbing that conflicts with what the child has been taught at home occurs. It goes against what the parents have taught this child.
In fact, this matter is directly related to the child's teacher.
So it seems reasonable to expect the child to go home and retell the events to their parents.
It seems reasonable for the parents to make a phone call to the school and speak with the teacher. It seems reasonable for the parents to call other parents of children in that classroom to confirm the story.
In fact, it seems reasonable for the parents to do a little due diligence before simple allowing their daughter to make a public statement to the board.
It also seems reasonable for the local press to confirm the validity before putting ink to paper.
So, after saying that, what are the odds, the parents heard what their daughter said, threw their coats on and chirped the tires on their Peugeot thru all 4 gears on the way to the board meeting that very night?
In the natural course of events, this seems very unlikely.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> So lets just put up a hypothetical.
> A child in a 4th grade class of say 20 kids. Something disturbing that conflicts with what the child has been taught at home occurs. It goes against what the parents have taught this child.
> In fact, this matter is directly related to the child's teacher.
> So it seems reasonable to expect the child to go home and retell the events to their parents.
> ...


It may seem reasonable but then why did no other parents address this before or during the meeting in July ? The survey took place in December in a zoom environment that other parents must have witnessed. Yet nothing happened until now?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Slow down Velvet. There's no need for you to rush to be the contrarian yet. You claim to prefer doing research before you draw a conclusion, at least in this case. I think you might be interested in seeking that answer to your very own question.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> It may seem reasonable but then why did no other parents address this before or during the meeting in July ? The survey took place in December in a zoom environment that other parents must have witnessed. Yet nothing happened until now?


Still waiting for the ballistics report I see. The shot was fired, the victim is dead. The shooter has openly admitted the crime. You’re still fussing about which gun the shooter used!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> How can you say it is normal? You do not have kids


I'd say anyone can spout an opinion about most anything they choose.
I do wonder if I were to visit say, a homosexual online forum and engage in a contrarian debate with a gay man about how to deal with a lifestyle issue with his lover, if my thoughts would carry the same weight when they discovered I was heavy in the feet.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

I wonder if Chris Yasgar is her father, if so, it might explain why she went in front of the school board.









Community Group Asking Sartell St. Stephen to Fire Company Over Equity Audit Results


KNSI News Reporter Jake Judd contributed significantly to this story (KNSI) - A group of Sartell-St. Stephen S...




knsiradio.com





Group member Chris Yasgar says the district needs to ditch the company and work with the community instead.

“Sartell needs to get rid of Equity Alliance of Minnesota. It’s never too late to make the right decision. I think they’re the fox in the henhouse and are creating the division in this district. And the staff at Sartell is extremely talented, along with the engaged parents can solve this problem.”


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

doozie said:


> I wonder if Chris Yasgar is her father, if so, it might explain why she went in front of the school board.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like it is his daughter.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

SLFarmMI said:


> Kids 2, 3, and 4 can indeed take the survey when it is presented to them in an equitable way.


There's no way you can do anything equitably to all children. There are too many possible permutations.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> I suppose another way to put it is- Would you allow your 4th grade level daughter to go in front of the school board and a gymnasium full of people and repeat a story that you believe to be a simple misunderstanding by her and only her?


Let's see. Her parents were vocally opposed to doing the survey, they started a Facebook group to push their opinion, they had the opportunity to opt their kid out of taking this survey they were supposedly so opposed to but chose not to and they couldn't wait to rush to the media to get their 15 minutes of fame. This doesn't even begin to pass the sniff test.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Looks like it is his daughter.


So? Didn't the article say almost 700 members? They all seem upset about this program. Don't their voices count too? Or are you just upset about a father and daughter voicing their disdain at the school district?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Let's see. Her parents were vocally opposed to doing the survey, they started a Facebook group to push their opinion, they had the opportunity to opt their kid out of taking this survey they were supposedly so opposed to but chose not to and they couldn't wait to rush to the media to get their 15 minutes of fame. This doesn't even begin to pass the sniff test.


You didn't even read the article did you?
Almost 700 members....your sniffer is broken.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> As I stated, you continue to prove that lack the ability to debate the issue. That some may have misinterpreted the directions on the survey in no way indicates a "lackadaisical attitude about clarity". People in all walks of life misinterpret things on a daily basis and it has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that they made a mistake.
> 
> It is perfectly reasonable for a private company to want to keep their survey questions in house. It doesn't "smack" of incompetence or an agenda. That's your bias talking because, to you, every school, every teacher is the enemy.
> 
> And, yeah, you go off the rails when challenged.





SLFarmMI said:


> It is not a data mining exercise. Nor is it a "covert way" to do anything. An equity survey is a tool that school districts use to look for possible inequities and/or disproportionalities in their systems. Then they use that information to look into their procedures/systems to see if adjustments need to be made.


So the questions are kept in house, its private, not available to school or public it seems. The answers to these unknown in house questions are then used by the school to base how the school handles its relations with the students. 
That needs some serious thought, I find it hard to believe anyone would actually think this is a good idea.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> Because grades and test scores can only tell you so much. They can't tell you, for example, if your MTSS system (that stands for Multi-Tiered Systems of Support and is an academic & behavior intervention system) is skewed either toward or against a particular group. They can't tell you if you anything about disproportionality in one of your programs. They can't tell you if a particular group is being isolated or singled out.


Sounds like this is a excuse to remove resources from some students and use it on those special groups…..kind of unfair sounding.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

GTX63 said:


> If Johnny has a penis, then he is a boy.
> Surely an educator would know such a thing.
> A parent's job is all inclusive to their child.
> A teacher has no business saying it isn't.


I agree somewhat. Call the child by what ever name is chosen, its the polite thing to do. Then start teaching. Clothes, sex, race, or whatever excuse is just that, an excuse to spend and waste resources on not teaching.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

JeffreyD said:


> You didn't even read the article did you?
> Almost 700 members....your sniffer is broken.


Look at it this way, you can waste your time convincing the one what they already know, or you can rest assured that those wonderful posts of hers will be seen by the many, and maybe a few parents will take action on behalf of their own children because of them.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> Look at it this way, you can waste your time convincing the one what they already know, or you can rest assured that those wonderful posts of hers will be seen by the many, and maybe a few parents will take action on behalf of their own children because of them.


Yeah, i know!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

JeffreyD said:


> You didn't even read the article did you?
> Almost 700 members....your sniffer is broken.


I read the "article". Did you bother to go past the OP and look into the facts? No, of course you didn't.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

It sure is hard to gaslight with no gas.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> You sure about that? Let's explore your, "just treat everyone equally" with a real life example.
> 
> Let's give textbooks to 4 kids. "Just treat everyone equally" says everyone gets the same textbook. Problem solved!
> Um, no.
> ...


kid 2,3,4, do not belong in the standard class that is not able to handle their teaching needs. Move them to where they can be taught and get on with the rest. No need to hold back and slow down the teaching of the rest of the class. Results are bad enough already. Yes I do know it is going to upset some that some student is not treated the same as that student, who cares, they are not the same. As long as the students get taught, the mandates are being handled.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Hiro said:


> It sure is hard to gaslight with no gas.


There was enough in the pipe for one.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Danaus29 said:


> Observant school personnel would see the bullying happening. Sympathetic school personnel would make children feel safe about coming to them to talk about bullying or other school behaviour issues. Responsive teachers would listen when students say they are having problems with school work.
> 
> Fix the system and they won't need silly data mining surveys.


It’s been a long time ago, but it seems things have not changed much. Teachers and faculty are going to be aware of problems with few exceptions. In many of the schools I attended they just ignored it. Right or wrong one thing I did learn, how to handle the problems. Just like real life when as a person becomes a adult.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> kid 2,3,4, do not belong in the standard class that is not able to handle their teaching needs. Move them to where they can be taught and get on with the rest. No need to hold back and slow down the teaching of the rest of the class. Results are bad enough already. Yes I do know it is going to upset some that some student is not treated the same as that student, who cares, they are not the same. As long as the students get taught, the mandates are being handled.


Kids 2, 3 and 4 absolutely do belong in the "standard" class. Kids 2, 3 and 4, btw, are all real life kids that were in my school. Kid 2 is named Kaycey and she has been blind since birth. She is also the top performing student in her class and has been at the head of her class for her entire school career. Kid 3 is named James. He has severe dyslexia and dysgraphia. He also has a wonderful mind, remembers everything and, when provided text to speech for reading and speech to text for writing, he can complete all classroom assignments on his own and outperforms his neurotypical peers. Kid 4 is named Maricella. She is from Mexico and, when provided with the support of a translator and text in her home language, she can participate fully in the "standard" class. 

When each of these kids were treated equitably, they were each able to participate fully in the "standard" class. That is part of what an equity survey is for -- to look for possible inequities and disproportionalities & correct them so that everyone can fully participate in school and have a positive educational experience that meets their needs. 

Perhaps you should not be so quick to define kids who are different as less than their peers and rush to shove them out of the "standard" class. They have every right to be there.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Kids 2, 3 and 4 absolutely do belong in the "standard" class. Kids 2, 3 and 4, btw, are all real life kids that were in my school. Kid 2 is named Kaycey and she has been blind since birth. She is also the top performing student in her class and has been at the head of her class for her entire school career. Kid 3 is named James. He has severe dyslexia and dysgraphia. He also has a wonderful mind, remembers everything and, when provided text to speech for reading and speech to text for writing, he can complete all classroom assignments on his own and outperforms his neurotypical peers. Kid 4 is named Maricella. She is from Mexico and, when provided with the support of a translator and text in her home language, she can participate fully in the "standard" class.
> 
> When each of these kids were treated equitably, they were each able to participate fully in the "standard" class. That is part of what an equity survey is for -- to look for possible inequities and disproportionalities & correct them so that everyone can fully participate in school and have a positive educational experience that meets their needs.
> 
> Perhaps you should not be so quick to define kids who are different as less than their peers and rush to shove them out of the "standard" class. They have every right to be there.


But you said you need these surveys to identify these kids before you give them a textbook. 

How can they take a survey to be identified if they can't read a textbook?

Because you as a professional have already identified their needs. That's why. Why do you need a pencil pusher created survey to tell you your job? Most of those questions were

"Is your teacher a good teacher?"

"Does your teacher care about you?"

"Do you think your teacher has your best interest at heart?"

Sounds like they are putting you under the gun and you can't feel the water getting hot yet. You think you are on a hot tub instead.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> Kids 2, 3 and 4 absolutely do belong in the "standard" class. Kids 2, 3 and 4, btw, are all real life kids that were in my school. Kid 2 is named Kaycey and she has been blind since birth. She is also the top performing student in her class and has been at the head of her class for her entire school career. Kid 3 is named James. He has severe dyslexia and dysgraphia. He also has a wonderful mind, remembers everything and, when provided text to speech for reading and speech to text for writing, he can complete all classroom assignments on his own and outperforms his neurotypical peers. Kid 4 is named Maricella. She is from Mexico and, when provided with the support of a translator and text in her home language, she can participate fully in the "standard" class.
> 
> When each of these kids were treated equitably, they were each able to participate fully in the "standard" class. That is part of what an equity survey is for -- to look for possible inequities and disproportionalities & correct them so that everyone can fully participate in school and have a positive educational experience that meets their needs.
> 
> Perhaps you should not be so quick to define kids who are different as less than their peers and rush to shove them out of the "standard" class. They have every right to be there.


As long as their needs do not prevent the rest of the class from obtaining their goal all is fine. When their needs start holding up the class, there is a problem.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> As long as their needs do not prevent the rest of the class from obtaining their goal all is fine. When their needs start holding up the class, there is a problem.


Nope, they have a right to be in the general education classroom. Even if you don't like it.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> But you said you need these surveys to identify these kids before you give them a textbook.
> 
> How can they take a survey to be identified if they can't read a textbook?
> 
> ...


No, I said that the purpose of an equity survey was to identify possible inequities and disproportionalities within the system.

I used the textbook example in response to another poster asking "why not just treat everyone equally" to point out the difference between equality and equity. Equality means everyone gets the same thing. Equity means everyone gets what they need. There's a difference.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, I said that the purpose of an equity survey was to identify possible inequities and disproportionalities within the system.
> 
> I used the textbook example in response to another poster asking "why not just treat everyone equally" to point out the difference between equality and equity. Equality means everyone gets the same thing. Equity means everyone gets what they need. There's a difference.


Then I misunderstood and never clarified until now. 

Since we have an understanding on that, why do you think gender identity has anything to do with academics?

Or do you think that?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Kids 2, 3 and 4 absolutely do belong in the "standard" class. Kids 2, 3 and 4, btw, are all real life kids that were in my school. Kid 2 is named Kaycey and she has been blind since birth. She is also the top performing student in her class and has been at the head of her class for her entire school career. Kid 3 is named James. He has severe dyslexia and dysgraphia. He also has a wonderful mind, remembers everything and, when provided text to speech for reading and speech to text for writing, he can complete all classroom assignments on his own and outperforms his neurotypical peers. Kid 4 is named Maricella. She is from Mexico and, when provided with the support of a translator and text in her home language, she can participate fully in the "standard" class.
> 
> When each of these kids were treated equitably, they were each able to participate fully in the "standard" class. That is part of what an equity survey is for -- to look for possible inequities and disproportionalities & correct them so that everyone can fully participate in school and have a positive educational experience that meets their needs.
> 
> Perhaps you should not be so quick to define kids who are different as less than their peers and rush to shove them out of the "standard" class. They have every right to be there.


I’m glad to hear these students get the special texts, equipment and a extra personnel required to enable them participate in standard class. Cudos to your schools finance managers for finding the extra tax dollars, when so many schools are so strapped for funding that teachers often have to come out of their own pockets to provide the basic supplies needed for their standard students, much less pay for translators, special edition text books and electronics for students with special needs.
I still fail to see however that these kids needed this type survey to recognize their special needs? Did no one notice kaycey Having trouble finding her desk, or that maricella didnt speak English?


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> Then I misunderstood and never clarified until now.
> 
> Since we have an understanding on that, why do you think gender identity has anything to do with academics?
> 
> Or do you think that?


Thanks for clarifying.

It doesn't nor does an equity survey, in my experience, attempt to make that link. As I have stated, a question about which gender one identifies as is a demographic question that helps to disaggregate the data. Especially in education, we disaggregate data all the time looking for patterns. Raw data without interpretation is pretty much worthless. Disaggregation of the data helps with the interpretation and you need demographic information to do that. Asking "what gender do you identify as" instead of "gender" acknowledges the fact that there are people, even kids, who do not identify as their birth gender.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I’m glad to hear these students get the special texts, equipment and a extra personnel required to enable them participate in standard class. Cudos to your schools finance managers for finding the extra tax dollars, when so many schools are so strapped for funding that teachers often have to come out of their own pockets to provide the basic supplies needed for their standard students, much less pay for translators, special edition text books and electronics for students with special needs.
> I still fail to see however that these kids needed this type survey to recognize their special needs? Did no one notice kaycey Having trouble finding her desk, or that maricella didnt speak English?


Again, an equity survey seeks to find out if there are inequities in systems. It doesn't seek to identify students with special needs. Why is it that you are having such difficulty understanding what an equity survey is and what it seeks to do?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> It doesn't nor does an equity survey, in my experience, attempt to make that link. As I have stated, a question about which gender one identifies as is a demographic question that helps to disaggregate the data. Especially in education, we disaggregate data all the time looking for patterns. Raw data without interpretation is pretty much worthless. Disaggregation of the data helps with the interpretation and you need demographic information to do that. Asking "what gender do you identify as" instead of "gender" acknowledges the fact that there are people, even kids, who do not identify as their birth gender.


Raw data with interpretation can be worthless as well.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> I read the "article". Did you bother to go past the OP and look into the facts? No, of course you didn't.


I did. Otherwise how would i know about the almost 700 members?......doh....


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

JeffreyD said:


> I did. Otherwise how would i know about the almost 700 members?......doh....


Did you bother to take note of the fact that the claims in the OP were refuted? No, of course you didn't because it didn't match what you want to believe.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Again, an equity survey seeks to find out if there are inequities in systems. It doesn't seek to identify students with special needs. Why is it that you are having such difficulty understanding what an equity survey is and what it seeks to do?


It’s a given there is inequities in any system. I get that. What I don’t get is the need for these surveys In our schools. Did one of these surveys help your school assist students 2,3,4? Or did common sense come into play?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Did you bother to take note of the fact that the claims in the OP were refuted? No, of course you didn't because it didn't match what you want to believe.


Are you saying now that this survey didn’t take place?


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Are you saying now that this survey didn’t take place?


Try going back and re-reading the thread. I really don't have the energy to deal with your "aw, gee, shucks, I don't know what you mean" schtick right now.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> It doesn't nor does an equity survey, in my experience, attempt to make that link. As I have stated, a question about which gender one identifies as is a demographic question that helps to disaggregate the data. Especially in education, we disaggregate data all the time looking for patterns. Raw data without interpretation is pretty much worthless. Disaggregation of the data helps with the interpretation and you need demographic information to do that. Asking "what gender do you identify as" instead of "gender" acknowledges the fact that there are people, even kids, who do not identify as their birth gender.


But here is the problem I have with that with kids who are not fully grown. 

Back story: I am my neighborhood Dr Phil I guess. I didn't ask for it but people feel comfortable talking to me. That's fine with me.

A young girl of the neighbors hit me with a question I don't know how to respond to. 1. I am not a girl. 2. I am not gay. She told me she was in love with a girl from school. She was 14. 

Now, I don't think this girl was gay. My opinion I know but I remember her telling another girl about one neighbor that had a glass wall gym and worked out in it. She would sit on the woods and watch him without him knowing.

I didn't think she was gay. But I asked her if she thought she was attracted because of peer pressure on the media. She says no, she was in love. True love. 

The only thing I could think to tell her was a should be sure because she didn't want to break someone's heart over something as trivial as peer pressure. 

She is 20 now. Broke that girls heart and has never looked back. She is not lesbian but the other girl was. 

I think that the current climate had caused a lot of confusion among the young crowd. 

What do you think? 

What can we do to make it right?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Try going back and re-reading the thread. I really don't have the energy to deal with your "aw, gee, shucks, I don't know what you mean" schtick right now.


No need, I know exactly what you mean. You support these nonsense surveys and will defend them along with anything else the teachers union tellls you to.... no matter how useless or detrimental it may be.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mreynolds said:


> But here is the problem I have with that with kids who are not fully grown.
> 
> Back story: I am my neighborhood Dr Phil I guess. I didn't ask for it but people feel comfortable talking to me. That's fine with me.
> 
> ...


Kids have been confused for thousands of years. Nothing new about that. What can we do? Let them grow up.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I agree with that. That's what she did. But I was asking the degreed teacher what she thought. You and I probably think the same on things like this. But we haven't been formally trained in these matters.

Just wanted a difference of opinion is all. 




Evons hubby said:


> Kids have been confused for thousands of years. Nothing new about that. What can we do? Let them grow up.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

kinderfeld said:


> 4th Graders Complete ‘Equity Survey,’ Told Not to Discuss with Parents
> 
> 
> A Minnesota fourth grade student said the class was required to complete an equity survey and told not to discuss it with parents.
> ...


Asking a child anything about their gender should be grounds for termination, and a butt whipping.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

muleskinner2 said:


> Asking a child anything about their gender should be grounds for termination, and a butt whipping.


The public schools aren't consistantly good enough, the teachers aren't consistently qualified and it is not their business. They are good however, at conning the public into allowing them to manipulate your children.
They call a manure cart a school bus and want you to believe they are experts in transportation.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> Did you bother to take note of the fact that the claims in the OP were refuted? No, of course you didn't because it didn't match what you want to believe.


The claims in the OP were not “refuted”. The OP stated that the child claimed they were told they weren’t allowed to discuss the questions with their parents. What you’re citing to refute that claim is that the superintendent said that the instructions were misinterpreted by the students *and/or* the teachers. Here’s the actual quote:



> The context that was shared – which may have been misinterpreted by students and/or staff – was that students were asked to answer the questions related to their own personal experience and that their answers should reflect their own personal perceptions and not those of classmates, friends or family members.


You immediately equated that to him saying “_the child misunderstood_”, but that’s not what he said. He works for the schools. If he thought it was all on the child, he would have never risked that “_and/or the staff_” part. His statement is that the child may have misunderstood, AND/OR the teacher may have misunderstood (meaning the teacher may have told the child exactly what the child said she did).

Regardless if it was the result of a misunderstanding, if the teacher told the child that she couldn’t discuss the survey with her parents, that is a VERY significant problem.

The child’s claim has not been refuted, and it’s dishonest of you to brush it away as such.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

She knows that.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Yes. There have been changes in policies/programs to reflect the results. My district was not providing adequate communication for our Hmong population which we saw when we looked at the results of the survey. That was the latest one.


Thank you for your response. I am glad to see your school is working to provide extra support in areas where it is needed.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> The claims in the OP were not “refuted”. The OP stated that the child claimed they were told they weren’t allowed to discuss the questions with their parents. What you’re citing to refute that claim is that the superintendent said that the instructions were misinterpreted by the students *and/or* the teachers. Here’s the actual quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I notice that you completely ignore all the claims made in the OP. Let's start with the claim made in the title of the OP that the survey was required. Right off the bat we know that is false because some parents opted their kids out of the survey. You will find that information in this link: Sartell-St. Stephen school district responds to equity audit questions with email to parents - The Newsleaders

Now, let's go to the claim that she was told to hide the survey from her parents. "This was all done via Zoom," Ridlehoover said. "There were parents actually on the call. If we had a teacher actually tell students to keep information from their parents, our phone lines would have lit up instantaneously." You will find that quote here: Sartell-St. Stephen superintendent responds to equity audit concerns
So kindly explain how, in a Zoom call with parents on the call with their children, the survey was being kept hidden. 

The claim has been refuted. Let's see if you are honest enough to admit it.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> I agree with that. That's what she did. But I was asking the degreed teacher what she thought. You and I probably think the same on things like this. But we haven't been formally trained in these matters.
> 
> Just wanted a difference of opinion is all.


So are you wondering if kids are coming out as homosexual, bisexual or transgender because of media influences or peer pressure? I want to make sure I am not misunderstanding your question.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> No need, I know exactly what you mean. You support these nonsense surveys and will defend them along with anything else the teachers union tellls you to.... no matter how useless or detrimental it may be.


You know exactly zip. An equity survey is neither useless nor detrimental.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> So are you wondering if kids are coming out as homosexual, bisexual or transgender because of media influences or peer pressure? I want to make sure I am not misunderstanding your question.


Not M’s answer, but I’ll answer for myself.

Yes.

I think a lot of kids are claiming to be homosexual or some gender other than what they really are because it’s been made “cool”.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Not M’s answer, but I’ll answer for myself.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> I think a lot of kids are claiming to be homosexual or some gender other than what they really are because it’s been made “cool”.


The numbers go thru periods where they rise and fall but they have always been a small static percentage.
The fluctuations vary with social norms and cultures and pressures.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> You know exactly zip. An equity survey is neither useless nor detrimental.


Is is to him if he says it is.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

muleskinner2 said:


> Asking a child anything about their gender should be grounds for termination, and a butt whipping.


It's a simple demographic question. It's no different than asking them their name, age, race or any other demographic information that you are asked on every single form you fill out throughout your life. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nope. No one's business outside of their parents.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> You know exactly zip. An equity survey is neither useless nor detrimental.


I can remember a time when schools asked parents permission.... before taking us on field trips.. if this survey wasn’t questionable (at the very least) why was there an opt out option?


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> I notice that you completely ignore all the claims made in the OP. Let's start with the claim made in the title of the OP that the survey was required. Right off the bat we know that is false because some parents opted their kids out of the survey. You will find that information in this link: Sartell-St. Stephen school district responds to equity audit questions with email to parents - The Newsleaders
> 
> Now, let's go to the claim that she was told to hide the survey from her parents. "This was all done via Zoom," Ridlehoover said. "There were parents actually on the call. If we had a teacher actually tell students to keep information from their parents, our phone lines would have lit up instantaneously." You will find that quote here: Sartell-St. Stephen superintendent responds to equity audit concerns
> So kindly explain how, in a Zoom call with parents on the call with their children, the survey was being kept hidden.
> ...


You’re mischaracterizing the concerns. Your typical strawman tactics. 

The headline used the word “required”, but the student’s actual claim was:


> My teacher said that I could not skip any questions even when I didn’t understand them,” Haylee Yasgar, who attended Riverview Intermediate School,


Whether or not she had the option to opt-out, her claim was that, when she was taking the survey, she was told it was *required* that she answer every question. I don’t recall seeing a claim that there was no way to opt out, but that’s beside the point. The student taking the survey said that she was told she had to answer every question, even if she didn’t understand them.


That, of course, is irrelevant. By far, the main point that has people upset is the student’s claim that she was told not to discuss it with her parents. It being conducted via Zoom does not refute that. Whether or not a few parents were viewing does not refute that. The superintendent’s statement certainly does not refute that (and may actually corroborate it, given his choice to include the teachers in the potential sources of “misinterpretation”).

The child’s claim that she was told not to discuss the survey with her parents has NOT been refuted. That’s not an opinion. It’s a fact, and one that you’re factually wrong about.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I can remember a time when schools asked parents permission.... before taking us on field trips.. if this survey wasn’t questionable (at the very least) why was there an opt out option?


There's an opt out on all kinds of things. You can opt your kid out of the state testing for example.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> It's a simple demographic question. It's no different than asking them their name, age, race or any other demographic information that you are asked on every single form you fill out throughout your life. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.


On what planet? I can work with name.... asking a students gender identity preference or race? Needs to stop! That information is entirely wrong and can serve no proper benefit!


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> There's an opt out on all kinds of things. You can opt your kid out of the state testing for example.


That’s my point... what happened to getting permission?


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> You’re mischaracterizing the concerns. Your typical strawman tactics.
> 
> The headline used the word “required”, but the student’s actual claim was:
> 
> ...


First of all, I was referring to the entirety of the OP not just the clip of the student. The OP does indeed make the claim that the survey was required and that has certainly been refuted.

Secondly, the fact that parents were sitting in on the Zoom call and could see and hear everything does indeed refute the claim that the students were directed not to tell their parents. It strains credulity that, with parents sitting in on the call who could see and hear everything, that kids were told to hide the questions from their parents.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> That’s my point... what happened to getting permission?


Because some things are opt in and some are opt out. A field trip, for example, is simple to make opt in. Collecting around 30 permission slips is no big deal. State testing, for example, would be a nightmare to make opt in. Collecting thousands of permission slips is a big deal.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> There's an opt out on all kinds of things. You can opt your kid out of the state testing for example.


Not true. I had a special needs child that could not opt out of the California High School Exit Exam and who was given no waivers or provisions for her dyscalculia, and she was unable to opt out. 

This forced us to withdraw her from the public high school special needs homeschool program she was in and send her to a privately run adult high school program in order to get her diploma.

I guess that was our opt out?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Because some things are opt in and some are opt out. A field trip, for example, is simple to make opt in. Collecting around 30 permission slips is no big deal. State testing, for example, would be a nightmare to make opt in. Collecting thousands of permission slips is a big deal.


No nightmare, same teacher can collect same permission slips... you know, as she hands out the test papers, no permission slip... no test!


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> On what planet? I can work with name.... asking a students gender identity preference or race? Needs to stop! That information is entirely wrong and can serve no proper benefit!


It serves to help disaggregate the data to determine if you are serving your entire population or just certain segments. It helps find patterns in the data. 

I think you are just looking for something to be offended about.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> It serves to help disaggregate the data to determine if you are serving your entire population or just certain segments. It helps find patterns in the data.
> 
> I think you are just looking for something to be offended about.


It’s not a tough search when dealing with our government.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Mish said:


> Not true. I had a special needs child that could not opt out of the California High School Exit Exam and who was given no waivers or provisions for her dyscalculia, and she was unable to opt out.
> 
> This forced us to withdraw her from the public high school special needs homeschool program she was in and send her to a privately run adult high school program in order to get her diploma.
> 
> I guess that was our opt out?


Opted Out as the default mode would result in more parents becoming engaged and fewer children being harmed by dubious surveys, questionnaires, etc.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> So are you wondering if kids are coming out as homosexual, bisexual or transgender because of media influences or peer pressure? I want to make sure I am not misunderstanding your question.


Some, yes. Maybe even more than some. Not all though.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Opted Out as the default mode would result in more parents becoming engaged and fewer children being harmed by dubious surveys, questionnaires, etc.


Exactly how were children harmed by participating in an optional survey about their school experience?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

That would be up to each set of parents to decide, not you or I.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> It’s not a tough search when dealing with our government.


This is a photo a family member took about 5 years ago.
Yep, cameras were always allowed.
No one needed to tell these two girls they were different, nor prod them to decide they were something else.
No tests to see if they understood what the darkness of the world was yet.
No one told them the other was racist.
They learned to read and write and count and love life.
They were just friends.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> Some, yes. Maybe even more than some. Not all though.


Thank you for clarifying your question. That's what I thought you were wondering.

No, I don't believe that more kids are coming out due to media influences and/or peer pressure. I think we are noticing that more children are feeling that it is safer to come out now than it was in the past. Here are a few questions for you to illustrate the point. I am making a couple assumptions in these questions, namely that you are male and married to a woman. If I am incorrect in these assumptions, please correct me.

1. Have you ever had the snot beat out of you or been threatened with death for walking down the street holding your wife's hand?
2. Have you ever been called a pedophile for wanting to adopt children with your wife?
3. Have you ever been fired for being married to or dating a female?
4. Have you ever been denied housing for being married to your wife?
5. Did you have to go to court to gain the right to marry your wife?
6. Have you ever been beaten because of the outfit you were wearing?
7. Did your parents throw you out of the house or disown you because you were attracted to women?
8. Have you ever been accused of having a mental disorder because you were attracted to women?

All of these things, and more, have happened to homosexual, bisexual and transgender people. It is getting better which is why you are seeing more people coming out. It is now much safer to come out.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

_"more kids are coming out due to media influences and/or peer pressure."_

I agree with what you said there.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> This is a photo a family member took about 5 years ago.
> Yep, cameras were always allowed.
> No one needed to tell these two girls they were different, nor prod them to decide they were something else.
> No tests to see if they understood what the darkness of the world was yet.
> ...


And equity surveys don't tell kids "they were different, nor prod them to decide they were something else". Equity surveys don't teach them about "the darkness of the world" or that "the other was racist".


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> _"more kids are coming out due to media influences and/or peer pressure."_
> 
> I agree with what you said there.


Why don't you quote the entire sentence instead of trying to change the meaning of what I said? Interesting how you ignore the bulk of the content in the post.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why don't you quote the entire sentence instead of trying to change the meaning of what I said? Interesting how you ignore the bulk of the content in the post.


Ignoring is such a poor description. There are many parents who would be justifiably alarmed to hear their children's teacher say such a thing. However, with a couple of those snazzy room monitors and a hard disc, we could all sleep well knowing you were doing your job just as those parents believed a teacher should.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

SLFarmMI said:


> Thank you for clarifying your question. That's what I thought you were wondering.
> 
> No, I don't believe that more kids are coming out due to media influences and/or peer pressure. I think we are noticing that more children are feeling that it is safer to come out now than it was in the past. Here are a few questions for you to illustrate the point. I am making a couple assumptions in these questions, namely that you are male and married to a woman. If I am incorrect in these assumptions, please correct me.
> 
> ...


Perversion should never be encouraged or allowed, no matter what you choose to call it.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Ignoring is such a poor description. There are many parents who would be justifiably alarmed to hear their children's teacher say such a thing. However, with a couple of those snazzy room monitors and a hard disc, we could all sleep well knowing you were doing your job just as those parents believed a teacher should.


Ignoring is an appropriate and accurate description for what you attempted. And you are still ignoring the content in the post.

If you are being honest, you can't deny that it has not been safe in this country to come out as homosexual, bisexual or transgender. It is getting better now but all of the things that I listed have happened and some still are.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Here we go.
You know that old liberal expression, if you have nothing to hide you won't mind the search.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

muleskinner2 said:


> Perversion should never be encouraged or allowed, no matter what you choose to call it.


The conversation over failing schools that continue to spread indoctrination rather than improve literacy and graduation rates won't be stopping anytime soon.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Exactly how were children harmed by participating in an optional survey about their school experience?


That will depend a lot on how the information is used.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Ignoring is an appropriate and accurate description for what you attempted. And you are still ignoring the content in the post.
> 
> If you are being honest, you can't deny that it has not been safe in this country to come out as homosexual, bisexual or transgender. It is getting better now but all of the things that I listed have happened and some still are.


Almost less than zero to do with what you should be doing in a classroom.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> That will depend a lot on how the information is used.


The information is being used to improve the district's programs and services. That would have been very clear to you had you read the superintendent's statement.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> The conversation over failing schools that continue to spread indoctrination rather than improve literacy and graduation rates won't be stopping anytime soon.


Maybe those conversations should be based on facts instead of overdramatic nonsense such as "schools are spreading indoctrination".


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> The information is being used to improve the district's programs and services. That would have been very clear to you had you read the superintendent's statement.


Of course it is! How silly of me to doubt the government!


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

And the race to the bottom continues, good show. We will see more of the Equity Alliance/CRT type organizations in the public "school" systems.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

It is akin to "It isn't happening but I'm glad that it is".


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Not M’s answer, but I’ll answer for myself.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> I think a lot of kids are claiming to be homosexual or some gender other than what they really are because it’s been made “cool”.


In on-line forums, parents have reported that their children seemed to experience a sudden or rapid onset of gender dysphoria, appearing for the first time during puberty or even after its completion. Parents describe that the onset of gender dysphoria seemed to occur in the context of belonging to a peer group where one, multiple, or even all of the friends have become gender dysphoric and transgender-identified during the same timeframe. 









Parent reports of adolescents and young adults perceived to show signs of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria


Purpose In on-line forums, parents have reported that their children seemed to experience a sudden or rapid onset of gender dysphoria, appearing for the first time during puberty or even after its completion. Parents describe that the onset of gender dysphoria seemed to occur in the context of...




journals.plos.org


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Did you bother to take note of the fact that the claims in the OP were refuted? No, of course you didn't because it didn't match what you want to believe.


Yawn......


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Maybe those conversations should be based on facts instead of overdramatic nonsense such as "schools are spreading indoctrination".


Except the schools do exactly that. Or have you already forgotten the kiddies reciting the Obama is god mantra? Or that crt is indeed being taught in k-12 as we speak?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Except the schools do exactly that. Or have you already forgotten the kiddies reciting the Obama is god mantra? Or that crt is indeed being taught in k-12 as we speak?


Believe what you like. No amount of facts will change your mind.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Believe what you like. No amount of facts will change your mind.


Facts certainly do not change your mind. You've proven that over and over again.
(Insert useless, snarky comeback here)


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Believe what you like. No amount of facts will change your mind.


But the facts say I’m correct in my beliefs. Our kids are being indoctrinated. Why can’t you see that? I distinctly recall the kiddies doing their chant about Obama in class praising him highly. 



. Crt is being taught now. At least according to the nea Is Critical Race Theory Taught in K-12 Schools? The NEA Says Yes, and That It Should Be.

The list goes on. We need to be educating our kids, not pushing political agendas. You might want to look into who is behind this particular equity survey even, very biased leftwingers being funded by more very left wing parties. Our schools are not the place for such bs. Get back to our abc’s, times tables, and honest history.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

JeffreyD said:


> Facts certainly do not change your mind. You've proven that over and over again.
> (Insert useless, snarky comeback here)


You don't present facts.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Maybe


SLFarmMI said:


> You don't present facts.


maybe, maybe not, but I do.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> But the facts say I’m correct in my beliefs. Our kids are being indoctrinated. Why can’t you see that? I distinctly recall the kiddies doing their chant about Obama in class praising him highly. Crt is being taught now. At least according to the nea Is Critical Race Theory Taught in K-12 Schools? The NEA Says Yes, and That It Should Be.
> 
> The list goes on. We need to be educating our kids, not pushing political agendas. You might want to look into who is behind this particular equity survey even, very biased leftwingers being funded by more very left wing parties. Our schools are not the place for such bs. Get back to our abc’s, times tables, and honest history.


The facts say you are not. CRT is not being taught in schools. Somehow you have gotten the idea that any discussion of race, racism, honest history that looks at all sides of an event not just the "George Washington and the cherry tree" version, etc. is CRT and it just isn't. Good teaching requires having students look at events from a variety of perspectives, not just one.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> Maybe
> maybe, maybe not, but I do.


Using her reasoning, just state whatever you are saying is fact.
There you go.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> The facts say you are not. CRT is not being taught in schools. Somehow you have gotten the idea that any discussion of race, racism, honest history that looks at all sides of an event not just the "George Washington and the cherry tree" version, etc. is CRT and it just isn't. Good teaching requires having students look at events from a variety of perspectives, not just one.


Good teaching means they move to the next grade level prepared for it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> The facts say you are not. CRT is not being taught in schools. Somehow you have gotten the idea that any discussion of race, racism, honest history that looks at all sides of an event not just the "George Washington and the cherry tree" version, etc. is CRT and it just isn't. Good teaching requires having students look at events from a variety of perspectives, not just one.


So the nea got it wrong too! Bwaaahahaha!!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Good teaching requires having students look at events from a variety of perspectives, not just one.


so you would teach our kids the civil war was about states rights, power and money (southern perspective) instead of the bs version that it was about slavery?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Mr, Hubby, I'm not giving you a bomb recipe, I wouldn't do that. I'm simply showing you a list of ingredients and what they do.
See how that works?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> Mr, Hubby, I'm not giving you a bomb recipe, I wouldn't do that. I'm simply showing you a list of ingredients and what they do.
> See how that works?


Exactly


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Repeat the quote of mine you posted continually. I will gladly continue to repeat it as well every half dozen or so posts, so that everyone will see that I am not giving you a bomb recipe. The more that get the message, the more that may believe it.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I'm just a simple thinking man. I have a question. 

If CRT isn't being taught in the schools then why are schools and media fighting the state legislators about keeping it out?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Change the name to something describing mostly the same thing.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> I'm just a simple thinking man. I have a question.
> 
> If CRT isn't being taught in the schools then why are schools and media fighting the state legislators about keeping it out?


I could have answered you in one post but I'll use two.
It is a gaslighting tactic.
Mr. Fauci uses it.
Bill Clinton used it.
Most any witness at a judicial committee hearing uses it.
Lawyers use it.
Don't answer a simple direct question yet continue to state that you did.
Deny the obvious because it may depend on what is is. In other words, get mired in semantics and minutiae.
You know what you know but you are being told you don't.
It isn't being taught but I am glad that it is.
The public education system isn't about the kids but rather the system. It protects its own.
Kids are just a resource.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mreynolds said:


> I'm just a simple thinking man. I have a question.
> 
> If CRT isn't being taught in the schools then why are schools and media fighting the state legislators about keeping it out?


Don’t you know thinking is not part of the game, we are to simply nod in agreement and do as we’re told!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> so you would teach our kids the civil war was about states rights, power and money (southern perspective) instead of the bs version that it was about slavery?


I hate to break it to you but all of those concepts about causes of the Civil War have been taught in school for a very long time.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> I hate to break it to you but all of those concepts about causes of the Civil War have been taught in school for a very long time.


But has anyone taught the truth? And how would you teach it?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> I'm just a simple thinking man. I have a question.
> 
> If CRT isn't being taught in the schools then why are schools and media fighting the state legislators about keeping it out?


Because these laws, which are intended to keep the base fired up and afraid, are about banning any meaningful discussion about race or racism whatsoever. 

Let's take the Texas law as an example. Here's a little tidbit from their law.
*"A teacher may not make part of a course the concept that the advent of slavery constituted the true founding of the United States" or "that slavery and racism are anything other than deviations from, betrayals of, or failures to live up to, the authentic founding principles."* 

Hmm, seems to me that over a century of slavery in this country is more than a "deviation". Guess teachers can't teach about Senator John Calhoun and his views that a consensual government was for white men only any more. And they certainly can't teach about Frederick Douglass and some of his famous speeches. 

How are teachers supposed to teach about the Civil Rights Act without discussing racism? How about the Jim Crow laws? You can't have a meaningful discussion about many parts of our history without an honest look at racism. 


CRT is the boogeyman that right-wing politicians are using to fire up their base in preparation for 2022 and 2024. Not one of the legislators could point to any K-12 classroom in their state where CRT is being taught.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> CRT is the boogeyman that right-wing politicians are using to fire up their base in preparation for 2022 and 2024. Not one of the legislators could point to any K-12 classroom in their state where CRT is being taught.


and yet the nea has no problem admitting it is and should be taught. Hmmmm


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> and yet the nea has no problem admitting it is and should be taught. Hmmmm


Many good educators will strive to answer your question in a manner that is satisfying to you.
After all, that is part of their job.
You should feel the same confidence as a student at the end of a class.
Poor or dishonest ones tend to use a declaratory manner ie "I answered your question". You either get it or you aren't smart.
Our daughter, and many others we know, typically finish a response to parents with "Have I answered your question" or "Is there anything else I can help you with". Their door is open. They have nothing to hide.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> Don’t you know thinking is not part of the game, we are to simply nod in agreement and do as we’re told!


Declatories of opinion do not work here because it is classroom technique used on children.


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## DebbieJ (Oct 9, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Unfortunately, teachers are TOLD what to say and do. I fought it like a harridan for fifteen years. Students loved me for standing up for them. Administrators and the school board, not so much.
> 
> I had a conversation this morning with a friend about the teacher shortage here in Central Texas. Llano is short TEN teachers, and it's a small mostly rural school. If I desperately needed money, I could get a job in any district around here before school starts in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately, my evaluation at the end of the year would not look good.
> 
> I argued with one of the last administrators that I worked with when he penalized me on my evaluation for disagreeing with him on an issue earlier in the year. It was a pretty intense conversation. He corrected the evaluation.


Alice, we need more teachers like you. If my child was told not to tell me, I’d pull them out of school. Something isn’t right there. it is scary to me that a teacher told a child that. BTW, my youngest child is 48 years old. I went to school unannounced to all three of my children’s classes. I had my youngest taken out of a teachers class due to the treatment of my son a few years before. I’d home school before they had a bad teacher.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

DebbieJ said:


> Alice, we need more teachers like you. If my child was told not to tell me, I’d pull them out of school. Something isn’t right there. it is scary to me that a teacher told a child that. BTW, my youngest child is 48 years old. I went to school unannounced to all three of my children’s classes. I had my youngest taken out of a teachers class due to the treatment of my son a few years before. I’d home school before they had a bad teacher.


There were parents on the Zoom call when the survey was conducted. Nothing was hidden from parents regardless of what the "article" in the OP claims.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Saying nothing was hidden from parents is still incorrect.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Saying nothing was hidden from parents is still incorrect.


Kindly explain how an open Zoom call where parents were in attendance is hidden. How is a Zoom call where parents could see the questions on their children's screens and hear all conversation hidden? How is a Zoom call where any of the students' parents could be present hidden?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Sorry, 450 posts and the courtroom cleared out a while ago. Try your case again another time. Meanwhile, we are having some fun on a few other threads. Come on over and jump in. Nobody will rub anything in, promise.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Sorry, 450 posts and the courtroom cleared out a while ago. Try your case again another time. Meanwhile, we are having some fun on a few other threads. Come on over and jump in. Nobody will rub anything in, promise.


So, in other words, you've got nothing and can't admit it.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Evons hubby said:


> Don’t you know thinking is not part of the game, we are to simply nod in agreement and do as we’re told!


Yessir


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Because these laws, which are intended to keep the base fired up and afraid, are about banning any meaningful discussion about race or racism whatsoever.
> 
> Let's take the Texas law as an example. Here's a little tidbit from their law.
> *"A teacher may not make part of a course the concept that the advent of slavery constituted the true founding of the United States" or "that slavery and racism are anything other than deviations from, betrayals of, or failures to live up to, the authentic founding principles."*
> ...


I have had people pee on my leg and tell me it's a thunderstorm before. I am a simple thinking man but I have a pretty good bs detector. 

I think the problem is with the word theory. Why not call it critical race facts instead. That way you can teach all about those things just like we have the last 50 years. Just teach the facts. Not theory. 

synonym: Theory: 

speculation
ideology
point of view

*JUDGMENT *


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> I have had people pee on my leg and tell me it's a thunderstorm before. I am a simple thinking man but I have a pretty good bs detector.
> 
> I think the problem is with the word theory. Why not call it critical race facts instead. That way you can teach all about those things just like we have the last 50 years. Just teach the facts. Not theory.
> 
> ...


We aren't teaching critical race theory. What part of that is eluding you?

The problem is that the politicians are lying to you. They are declaring that any discussion of race or racism is CRT. Then they are trying to play the hero, swooping in to save the day from something that isn't happening. They are manufacturing a crisis where one does not exist.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> We aren't teaching critical race theory. What part of that is eluding you?
> 
> The problem is that the politicians are lying to you. They are declaring that any discussion of race or racism is CRT. Then they are trying to play the hero, swooping in to save the day from something that isn't happening. They are manufacturing a crisis where one does not exist.



But you didnt really answer my first question about why do districts fight this if they are not teaching it now. That, or I am totally lost on your explanation. I took it to mean if they pass these laws they wont be able to teach the *truth* of how racism has shaped this country. We all have learned that it has. I know of no one that hasn't learned it that has been to public school. 

These laws will stop these current lessons?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> We aren't teaching critical race theory. What part of that is eluding you?
> 
> The problem is that the politicians are lying to you. They are declaring that any discussion of race or racism is CRT. Then they are trying to play the hero, swooping in to save the day from something that isn't happening. They are manufacturing a crisis where one does not exist.


If it’s not happening, why would the nea admit it is? And insist it should be?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> But you didnt really answer my first question about why do districts fight this if they are not teaching it now. That, or I am totally lost on your explanation. I took it to mean if they pass these laws they wont be able to teach the *truth* of how racism has shaped this country. We all have learned that it has. I know of no one that hasn't learned it that has been to public school.
> 
> These laws will stop these current lessons?


Let me see if I can clear it up for you. If the laws said "You may not teach CRT" that would be one thing. But they don't. They say things like a teacher may not teach anything that teaches "that slavery and racism are anything other than deviations from, betrayals of, or failures to live up to, the authentic founding principles". How do you expect teachers to have a discussion about the truth of how racism has impacted many historical events if they are forced to teach students that racism was just a little deviation from the founding principles? How are teachers supposed to teach, for example, the Cornerstone Speech, without being able to have a free discussion with their students about racism? So, yes, these laws will stifle those lessons.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You aren't going to sleep well tonight, are you, lol.


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## TxHorseMom (Feb 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> The law is on my side. Parents have the right to keep information about their child confidential. That information includes their photograph or a recording of them and their special education status.


I would think that, especially a parent of a special education student, would WANT recordings of the classes taken. How many special needs children have been abused in the classroom? You know it happens. It’s not like the recordings would be shown on tv.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

TxHorseMom said:


> I would think that, especially a parent of a special education student, would WANT recordings of the classes taken. How many special needs children have been abused in the classroom? You know it happens. It’s not like the recordings would be shown on tv.


The fact remains that many parents don't want their kids photographed or recorded under any circumstances. It could be for many reasons. We need to respect that.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Let me see if I can clear it up for you. If the laws said "You may not teach CRT" that would be one thing. But they don't. They say things like a teacher may not teach anything that teaches "that slavery and racism are anything other than deviations from, betrayals of, or failures to live up to, the authentic founding principles". How do you expect teachers to have a discussion about the truth of how racism has impacted many historical events if they are forced to teach students that racism was just a little deviation from the founding principles? How are teachers supposed to teach, for example, the Cornerstone Speech, without being able to have a free discussion with their students about racism? So, yes, these laws will stifle those lessons.


Well, I haven't understood it that way so far. I will do some more research. Wording of a bill does matter.

One issue I have had all along is when slavery is mentioned most people envision black families working in a cotton field. There is a lot more to it than that. Irish and Asian slavery was equally as bad. Indentured servitude in many cases was even worse.

If we are to teach how bad things were we should also allow some good things too. Like how Daniel Boone's family was killed by Indians during the war. Then after the war he stood before Congress and advocated for these same people. I'm not even sure I could do that. But the point being is that not everyone back then was a hater and bigoted. There were many people who were from the start abolitionist. The underground railroad was southern white family houses that risked death to get those slaves up north.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> You aren't going to sleep well tonight, are you, lol.


Rust never sleeps


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> Well, I haven't understood it that way so far. I will do some more research. Wording of a bill does matter.
> 
> One issue I have had all along is when slavery is mentioned most people envision black families working in a cotton field. There is a lot more to it than that. Irish and Asian slavery was equally as bad. Indentured servitude in many cases was even worse.
> 
> If we are to teach how bad things were we should also allow some good things too. Like how Daniel Boone's family was killed by Indians during the war. Then after the war he stood before Congress and advocated for these same people. I'm not even sure I could do that. But the point being is that not everyone back then was a hater and bigoted. There were many people who were from the start abolitionist. The underground railroad was southern white family houses that risked death to get those slaves up north.


Thank you for having an open mind. 

The idea that the Irish were slaves in America has been debunked many times by historians. The Irish were not slaves. There is also no history of Asians being slaves in the US. Indentured servitude could be very bad, no doubt, but to say it was worse than chattel slavery is wrong. That is a common tactic that some people use to diminish the evil that was slavery.

I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that kids are being taught that everyone was a "hater and bigoted". That's not the case. BTW, the Underground Railroad was southern white families, free southern black families and people, both black and white, traveling from the north. It was also religious organizations, most notably the Quakers who are credited by most historians with starting it.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Thank you for having an open mind.
> 
> The idea that the Irish were slaves in America has been debunked many times by historians. The Irish were not slaves. There is also no history of Asians being slaves in the US. Indentured servitude could be very bad, no doubt, but to say it was worse than chattel slavery is wrong. That is a common tactic that some people use to diminish the evil that was slavery.
> 
> I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that kids are being taught that everyone was a "hater and bigoted". That's not the case. BTW, the Underground Railroad was southern white families, free southern black families and people, both black and white, traveling from the north. It was also religious organizations, most notably the Quakers who are credited by most historians with starting it.


So technically Irish, Asian and indentured servants weren't slaves in a typical sense. They were just forced to work often until they died and replaced. And no one is saying it's the same thing as chattel slavery. Overworked workers didn't catch a break until unions formed. Then we were all about those civil rights. 

I guess my point is, if the schools taught what you say they are teaching, the wouldn't be people (and there are too many even today) that look upon the south as racist by way of geography. I have had 2 members on here call me racist just because I am from Texas. Both with degrees. If the south was/is so racist in it's entirety then why did so many southerners risk the lives of their family to help free the slaves? It seems some people just think there was a portal above the Mason Dixon line where the slaves magically appear with no help from southern abolitionist.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

An article on what is going on in some states.

Huh..

None of the state bills that have passed even actually mention the words “critical race theory” explicitly, with the exception of Idaho.









Why are states banning critical race theory?


It's important to understand what critical race theory is and is not.




www.brookings.edu


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

doozie said:


> An article on what is going on in some states.
> 
> Huh..
> 
> ...


Instead just hire groups like Equity Alliance, just change the name and continue to teach racism.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Let me see if I can clear it up for you. If the laws said "You may not teach CRT" that would be one thing. But they don't. They say things like a teacher may not teach anything that teaches "that slavery and racism are anything other than deviations from, betrayals of, or failures to live up to, the authentic founding principles". How do you expect teachers to have a discussion about the truth of how racism has impacted many historical events if they are forced to teach students that racism was just a little deviation from the founding principles? How are teachers supposed to teach, for example, the Cornerstone Speech, without being able to have a free discussion with their students about racism? So, yes, these laws will stifle those lessons.


I’d start by explaining that slavery had been a common practice throughout the world for many thousands of years and was not race dependent.... people of all races had been captured by their enemies and made slaves. I would also point out that it was not Americans who captured and made slaves of the African people... that was done by other Africans. In addition I’d point out the founders created a government in which race did not play a part in the lives of its citizens, and most importantly that the small deviation of slavery lasted less than eighty years after this country was formed. Women were denied the vote much longer... even white women! There is no need to promote further hatred and bitterness dwelling on the mental illness of racism.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> So technically Irish, Asian and indentured servants weren't slaves in a typical sense. They were just forced to work often until they died and replaced. And no one is saying it's the same thing as chattel slavery. Overworked workers didn't catch a break until unions formed. Then we were all about those civil rights.
> 
> I guess my point is, if the schools taught what you say they are teaching, the wouldn't be people (and there are too many even today) that look upon the south as racist by way of geography. I have had 2 members on here call me racist just because I am from Texas. Both with degrees. If the south was/is so racist in it's entirety then why did so many southerners risk the lives of their family to help free the slaves? It seems some people just think there was a portal above the Mason Dixon line where the slaves magically appear with no help from southern abolitionist.


Indentured servants weren't slaves. The people who are claiming that indentured servants were the same as slaves are doing so so that they can water down the evil that was slavery. 

I'm still wondering where you are getting the idea that "the south was/is so racist in it's entirety" and slaves got to freedom "with no help from southern abolitionists" is what is being taught.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Indentured servants weren't slaves. The people who are claiming that indentured servants were the same as slaves are doing so so that they can water down the evil that was slavery.


I’ve never heard anyone claim that indentured servitude was the same as slavery. As to slavery itself its level of evil is dependent entirely upon the individual slaveholder. (Many slaves remained on the plantations under their masters care after being freed) and let’s not forget that slavery, while a footnote in our country’s history, is still being practiced in many countries today.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Indentured servants weren't slaves. The people who are claiming that indentured servants were the same as slaves are doing so so that they can water down the evil that was slavery.
> 
> I'm still wondering where you are getting the idea that "the south was/is so racist in it's entirety" and slaves got to freedom "with no help from southern abolitionists" is what is being taught.


No one is "watering down" what slavery was. 

And no, you don't.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I’ve never heard anyone claim that indentured servitude was the same as slavery. As to slavery itself its level of evil is dependent entirely upon the individual slaveholder. (Many slaves remained on the plantations under their masters care after being freed) and let’s not forget that slavery, while a footnote in our country’s history, is still being practiced in many countries today.


What a mighty short memory you have. You don't have to go any further than HT itself to find several threads on the subject in multiple years where posters are claiming just that. 

Owning people is always evil regardless if you are a "benevolent owner" or not. 

Over 2 centuries of slavery in our history is not a "footnote".

"What about them?" is a terrible argument and is poor attempt to deflect attention away from the wrongs we have perpetrated in our own country.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> No one is "watering down" what slavery was.
> 
> And no, you don't.


You might want to take a peek at post #476. Yes, there are people trying to water down what slavery was.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> We aren't teaching critical race theory. What part of that is eluding you?
> 
> The problem is that the politicians are lying to you. They are declaring that any discussion of race or racism is CRT. Then they are trying to play the hero, swooping in to save the day from something that isn't happening. They are manufacturing a crisis where one does not exist.


California Focus: Critical ethnic studies using back door into public schools

Critical Ethnic Studies couldn’t get in the front door of California’s public schools, so now adherents of the historical perspective that’s considered by many to be both anti-white American and anti-Semitic are trying to enter through the rear.

The school board in Hayward’s unified district in the East Bay suburbs of San Francisco, for one example, last month voted to spend $40 million on a program designed by the for-profit Liberated Ethnic Studies Model Curriculum Institute (LESMC), a consulting firm aiming to sell versions of the state’s rejected first draft, which featured overtly false anti-white, anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist elements. That group’s website lists several contributors to the dumped draft as member consultants.

San Diego’s district appears set to approve a $77 million plan to emphasize ethnic studies in all subjects taught from kindergarten to 12th grade. As conceived, its program would be largely written by an LESMC member who also helped write the dumped state draft. 









California Focus: Critical ethnic studies using back door into public schools


Critical Ethnic Studies couldn’t get in the front door of California’s public schools, so now adherents of the historical perspective that’s considered by many to be both anti-white American and an…




www.ukiahdailyjournal.com





That said, the National Education Association (NEA) appears to have accepted the conservative framing of CRT: namely, that it's not merely confined to academia but is in fact also being taught in K-12 schools. And the NEA thinks this is a good thing that should be defended.

At its yearly annual meeting, conducted virtually over the past few days, the NEA adopted New Business Item 39, which essentially calls for the organization to defend the teaching of critical race theory.*









Is Critical Race Theory Taught in K-12 Schools? The NEA Says Yes, and That It Should Be.


"It is reasonable and appropriate for curriculum to be informed by academic frameworks..."




reason.com


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> What a mighty short memory you have. You don't have to go any further than HT itself to find several threads on the subject in multiple years where posters are claiming just that.
> 
> Owning people is always evil regardless if you are a "benevolent owner" or not.
> 
> ...


I do hope your not a math or history teacher! 1787 until 1865 is less than eighty years, not two centuries. Lol!

I have never claimed that owning people was a good thing. Just that its been around for a very long time and still exists. I’ve also pointed out that it’s not a racial thing. No need to make it one.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> You might want to take a peek at post #476. Yes, there are people trying to water down what slavery was.


There’s a difference between watering down and pointing out facts.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Thank you for having an open mind.
> 
> *The idea that the Irish were slaves in America has been debunked many times by historians. The Irish were not slaves.* There is also no history of Asians being slaves in the US. Indentured servitude could be very bad, no doubt, but to say it was worse than chattel slavery is wrong. That is a common tactic that some people use to diminish the evil that was slavery.
> 
> I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that kids are being taught that everyone was a "hater and bigoted". That's not the case. BTW, the Underground Railroad was southern white families, free southern black families and people, both black and white, traveling from the north. It was also religious organizations, most notably the Quakers who are credited by most historians with starting it.


Tell that to my ancestors. You, have to accept that it is indeed a fact. You, are in no position to argue this fact. If you even try, it will prove that your nothing more than a bigot who hates the Irish. It's OUR history, not yours.



http://www.irisheyesofva.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Irish_Slavery.pdf



*James II encouraged selling the Irish as slaves to planters and settlers in the New World colonies. The first recorded sale of Irish slaves was to a settlement on the Amazon River, in 1612.*

From 1641 to 1652, over 550,000 Irish were killed by the English and 300,000 more were sold as slaves. As more men were transported, leaving their wives and children behind, they too were also rounded up and sold as slaves. Irish women and their daughters were of lighter complection than the black slaves and were considered more valuable as domestic slaves. 

From 1625 the Irish were sold, with one purpose -as slaves. There were no indenture agreements, no protection, no choice. They were captured and turned over to shippers to be sold for their profit. The profits were huge, 900 pounds of cotton for an Irish slave. Everyone in the slave trade from Ireland made a profit, except for the slave.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

JeffreyD said:


> Tell that to my ancestors. You, have to accept that it is indeed a fact. You, are in no position to argue this fact. If you even try, it will prove that your nothing more than a bigot who hates the Irish. It's OUR history, not yours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But but but...... slavery was a racist thing!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I do hope your not a math or history teacher! 1787 until 1865 is less than eighty years, not two centuries. Lol!
> 
> I have never claimed that owning people was a good thing. Just that its been around for a very long time and still exists. I’ve also pointed out that it’s not a racial thing. No need to make it one.


You can't divorce the colonial period from the beginning of America but nice try. 1607 is the date I used as it was the first permanent settlement. 1619 is when the first slaves were brought. 1865 minus 1619 is 246 years so over two centuries.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

JeffreyD said:


> California Focus: Critical ethnic studies using back door into public schools
> 
> Critical Ethnic Studies couldn’t get in the front door of California’s public schools, so now adherents of the historical perspective that’s considered by many to be both anti-white American and anti-Semitic are trying to enter through the rear.
> 
> ...


I realize that facts mean nothing to you but here are a couple. Nowhere in their statement did the NEA say that CRT was appropriate for inclusion in the K-12 classroom. Here's another little fact. The NEA also represents college professors.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> You can't divorce the colonial period from the beginning of America but nice try. 1607 is the date I used as it was the first permanent settlement. 1619 is when the first slaves were brought. 1865 minus 1619 is 246 years so over two centuries.


Well since we’re going to ignore that England was running things during the colonial period, why not go all in and include the native Americans too?! They practiced slavery for centuries prior to the mayflower landing. Get real, slavery was practiced less than 80 years in the United States.

as a aside.... I didn’t divorce the brits colonial period... that was Washington and his boys in 1776.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

JeffreyD said:


> Tell that to my ancestors. You, have to accept that it is indeed a fact. You, are in no position to argue this fact. If you even try, it will prove that your nothing more than a bigot who hates the Irish. It's OUR history, not yours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is just so easy to prove you wrong.


https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8390/d0dbe4d0f49aad3cce00f3720a47c405f0ff.pdf










The unfree Irish in the Caribbean were indentured servants, not slaves


It’s a myth there were ‘Irish slaves’ in Barbados. As difficult as white servants’ experiences were, enslaved Africans were the people treated as livestock.




www.thejournal.ie












Debunking the imagery of the “Irish slaves” meme


Those that promote the myth of Irish perpetual hereditary chattel slavery in Colonial America and the Anglo-Caribbean use a variety of…




limerick1914.medium.com


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> There’s a difference between watering down and pointing out facts.


"As to slavery itself its level of evil is dependent entirely upon the individual slaveholder." That is you attempting to water down the evil of slavery.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> It is just so easy to prove you wrong.
> 
> 
> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8390/d0dbe4d0f49aad3cce00f3720a47c405f0ff.pdf
> ...


A rose by any other name....


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> It is just so easy to prove you wrong.
> 
> 
> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8390/d0dbe4d0f49aad3cce00f3720a47c405f0ff.pdf
> ...





SLFarmMI said:


> It is just so easy to prove you wrong.
> 
> 
> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8390/d0dbe4d0f49aad3cce00f3720a47c405f0ff.pdf
> ...


I really don't think you read any of those articles you posted. I'm talking about America, not the Caribbean or Barbados. It's so easy to prove that you only care about your own opinions and not factual information. Pretty sad for a teacher to be so closed minded and not being able to be factually correct must be terribly painful to your feelzzz. To deny this makes you an intolerant bigot. It's like telling a transgendered person that their not what they say they are.

My ancestors history trumps your articles anyway. I also provided my proof that you are so terribly wrong and misguided you will do anything to justify your obtuse position.

Your so easy to debunk.....


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> "As to slavery itself its level of evil is dependent entirely upon the individual slaveholder." That is you attempting to water down the evil of slavery.


Nope, not watering down, just applying common sense and perspective.
while I am very much opposed to the mistreatment of animals, I have no problem whatsoever with a farmer who takes care of his livestock. There are those who would have all livestock set free... “peta” comes to mind. But think about it... what sort of life would these critters have without the farmer to take care of them?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> You can't divorce the colonial period from the beginning of America but nice try. 1607 is the date I used as it was the first permanent settlement. 1619 is when the first slaves were brought. 1865 minus 1619 is 246 years so over two centuries.


Ok. If we can’t “divorce” the history of the English Empire from the history of the United States, separating the first 157 years from the last 89 years of the 246 year period you mention, then I guess we can’t ignore that 300 year period, during the 16th to the 18th centuries, when Africans held a lot of “us” as slaves.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

JeffreyD said:


> I really don't think you read any of those articles you posted. I'm talking about America, not the Caribbean or Barbados. It's so easy to prove that you only care about your own opinions and not factual information. Pretty sad for a teacher to be so closed minded and not being able to be factually correct must be terribly painful to your feelzzz. To deny this makes you anhttps://limerick1914.medium.com/open-letter-to-irish-central-irish-examiner-and-scientific-american-about-their-irish-slaves-3f6cf23b8d7f intolerant bigot. It's like telling a transgendered person that their not what they say they are.
> 
> My ancestors history trumps your articles anyway. I also provided my proof that you are so terribly wrong and misguided you will do anything to justify your obtuse position.
> 
> Your so easy to debunk.....


Your link in your post was referencing a book written by a non-historian about supposed Irish slavery in BARBADOS!!. Did you read your own link? Thus, my posting of the links that debunk the nonsense in your posted link. If you'd like links to debunk your nonsense about Irish slavery in America, here you go. 

No, the Irish Were Not Slaves Too This one is an interview with an actual Irish historian. He is the author of the 7 part series debunking the Irish slaves myth that I posted in my previous response to you. I'm sure you didn't bother to read it because facts mean nothing to you so here it is again. Debunking the imagery of the “Irish slaves” meme Maybe you'll read it this time. Go get a crowbar so you can pry your mind open and let the facts in. 

Here's a link to a page that has all sorts of resources to debunk your Irish slaves myth. Cyndi's List - Slavery - MYTH: The Irish Were Slaves

Here's a link to an open letter signed by all sorts of historians debunking your Irish slaves myth. Open letter to Irish Central, Irish Examiner and Scientific American about their “Irish slaves”…

Your comment "my ancestors (sic) history trumps your articles" made me laugh. Your stories do not trump facts based on the historical record researched by historians. 

You won't have the honesty to read any of the facts I've posted nor will you have the honesty to admit that you were wrong. You'll do your normal foot stomping wailing, "I'm right even if the facts prove me wrong because I want to believe what I believe! Facts be darned!" but maybe the information will be useful for someone else.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

If nothing else this thread is delightfully entertaining! Bwaaahahaha!!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Your link in your post was referencing a book written by a non-historian about supposed Irish slavery in BARBADOS!!. Did you read your own link? Thus, my posting of the links that debunk the nonsense in your posted link. If you'd like links to debunk your nonsense about Irish slavery in America, here you go.
> 
> No, the Irish Were Not Slaves Too This one is an interview with an actual Irish historian. He is the author of the 7 part series debunking the Irish slaves myth that I posted in my previous response to you. I'm sure you didn't bother to read it because facts mean nothing to you so here it is again. Debunking the imagery of the “Irish slaves” meme Maybe you'll read it this time. Go get a crowbar so you can pry your mind open and let the facts in.
> 
> ...


I don't foot stomp and wail, that's your mo. Facts of my ancestry are factually correct. You, are not.


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