# Do you have to dump milk if your doe is CL/CAE positive?



## TSYORK (Mar 16, 2006)

First of all, I know how some folks on here get they undies in a wad rather quickly when talking about subjects that are near and dear to them. I am not attempting to start a thread that one of the Mod's is going to have to lock down because folks don't know how to use their manners. Here's the question I'm asking: Is it safe to consume milk from a CL/CAE postive doe, or does it need to be dumped? Please don't get political with your responses. I just want to know the answer to the question.

Thanks,


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Short answer yea probably. Unless there is an abscess bust in the udder, which I don't know if that's a real possibility or not. 

You can also pastuerize it or if you don't want to do that, a squirt of colloidal silver in a gallon would probably be a good idea. Please don't feed it to anyone without their knowledge!

But I wouldn't want to get close enough for milk it :gaptooth:


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

CL can be passed to humans, so I'd butcher a CL positive animal.

CAE is not passed to humans. You can use milk from CAE positive animals, but I'd pasteurize it. 

That's just me.

I'm sure there are other opinions.:shocked:


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## Jay27 (Jan 11, 2010)

I would think that 'back in the day' many people consumed it... who knows whether they had problems or not, but since it still isn't mainstream knowledge, I'd say it is probably ok.


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## Kshobbit (May 14, 2002)

I would think that 'back in the day' many people consumed it. Yes Jay27, we didn't know much about those diseases. I never drank milk from a goat with an abscess because none of my goats had them. Later on when some were "given" to me I kept them quarrantined and took them to auction as fast as possible. I bought 2 Nubians at a meat goat breeders auction to be told later that the breeder knew they were CAE positive. Like meat goat raisers wanted CAE positive stock! I was really upset and took them to auction too.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

Kshobbit said:


> I would think that 'back in the day' many people consumed it. Yes Jay27, we didn't know much about those diseases. I never drank milk from a goat with an abscess because none of my goats had them. Later on when some were "given" to me I kept them quarrantined and took them to auction as fast as possible. I bought 2 Nubians at a meat goat breeders auction to be told later that the breeder knew they were CAE positive. Like meat goat raisers wanted CAE positive stock! I was really upset and took them to auction too.


So basically, you're saying, that YOU reintroduced sick stock, BACK to where they came from?
And NOW, it has BECOME somebody elses problem?
Sounds to me that you're no better than the folks you bought them from.....
Just sayin'.


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## Kshobbit (May 14, 2002)

Where else do you take culls but to an auction? I can't keep them and shooting them and burying the body is out of the question around here. 
I do take them to the auctions that everyone else has taken their culls to, not a breeding stock auction so the "penhookers' or meat buyers get them.
Shoot, if you have a better idea let me know, but my goats are all healthy. I didn't breed those animals I bought the Nubians, and was given the CL goats so the former owners could be all smug about getting rid of them to a dummy ie sucker like me. :soap: I learned better after awhile. I have been raising goats since 1976 and never sold an unhealthy goat to an unsuspecting person and never will. Elder B.E. Sallee of Jesus Way Goats in Tennessee was my hero about being very honest about your goats when selling them.


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Feb 17, 2003)

CL can be in the udder, so no I would not drink the milk.
CAE milk can be drunk, most pasteurize it first....just in case. But it is too risky to ever let a goat kid around to drink some. It is also a pain in the butt to run two herds, tape teats, worry about contamination and get into conversations with buyers when you are trying to get a name for your herd, about why there are positive does on the property. I do not recommend it for any newbie.


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## TSYORK (Mar 16, 2006)

I see where Biopryn offers CAE testing, but where can you get a goat tested for CL?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I understand that the blood tests for CL are not reliable.


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## TSYORK (Mar 16, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I understand that the blood tests for CL are not reliable.


So, just do a CAE test, and if it comes back negative, rock on?


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## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

My vet told me CL tests are not worth doing. If you get a lump, take the animal to the vet, have the vet lance it, and have the puss tested. 

For your first CAE test I also recommend your first test being done at the vet (mine charged $35 per animal), have the vet show you how to draw blood, and then after you can send it off yearly yourself (I use Washington State University). Pay close attention the directions for sending the samples in.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Yes, CAE test, if negative, then forge ahead!
Some folks test for Johnes and Brucellosis, too. I don't.

I use Biotracking for the CAE testing.

www.biotracking.com for instructions, shipping info, etc.


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## suzyhomemaker09 (Sep 24, 2004)

When you mention taking positive animals to an auction and then say 



Kshobbit said:


> Where else do you take culls but to an auction? I can't keep them and shooting them and burying the body is out of the question around here.
> I do take them to the auctions that everyone else has taken their culls to, not a breeding stock auction so the "penhookers' or meat buyers get them.
> Shoot, if you have a better idea let me know, but my goats are all healthy. I didn't breed those animals I bought the Nubians, and was given the CL goats so the former owners could be all smug about getting rid of them to a dummy ie sucker like me. :soap: I learned better after awhile. I have been raising goats since 1976 and never sold an unhealthy goat to an unsuspecting person and never will.




Well that there is just a contradiction in terms. I've been to many auctions and have never heard it said that an animal was positive for a disease.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

suzyhomemaker09 said:


> When you mention taking positive animals to an auction and then say
> 
> 
> 
> Well that there is just a contradiction in terms. I've been to many auctions and have never heard it said that an animal was positive for a disease.


The way I read it, she essentially said that she disclosed the goat's status at the barn. 

Maybe they run the sales differently in KS? <shrug>


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## suzyhomemaker09 (Sep 24, 2004)

Pony said:


> The way I read it, she essentially said that she disclosed the goat's status at the barn.
> 
> Maybe they run the sales differently in KS? <shrug>



Perhaps so...
I just know that auctions here are just that...they ask no questions...will put a scrapie tag on when you drop an animal off and Bob's yer uncle kind of thing.
Forgive me if I was harsh to judge the poster;s intent.
Just knowing that I've bought animals at auctions for my kids when I knew no better and inevitably ended up with heartbreak it just hits me hard to see an attitude that someone else once burned would do so to another.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

On a CAE positive goat, you can drink it raw if you like. On a CL positive goat, you would want to pasturize it at the very least or dump it if you are squeamish.
On either CAE or CL positive goats, you want to take off the kids and bottle feed them clean raw milk if you are planning to raise them to keep. If you just have buckling you want to eat, then leaving it on Mom for a few months is Ok until you butcher him.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Kshobbit said:


> I bought 2 Nubians at a meat goat breeders auction to be told later that the breeder knew they were CAE positive. Like meat goat raisers wanted CAE positive stock! I was really upset and took them to auction too.


Most meat goats sold at auction go to chivo dealers around here, so it would be appropriate to take them to auction if you didn't want them. CAE wouldn't personally bother me unless the goat was showing enough symptoms to be uncomfortable. You can drink the milk and eat the meat safely.


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## Creamers (Aug 3, 2010)

Yes. You can drink milk, as everyone said, from a CAE goat. Not an issue to humans.

Auctions/sale barns are not a place real breeders who are ever going care about CAE or CL buy from. They are traders, meat buyers or uneducated pet buyers. I don't have an issue with people taking those animals that are positive for either to an auction. People do not go to auctions who want a background disclosure on an animal of any sort.

THAT all said. . . I've never bought from one. I never sell at them. I CAE test my whole herd. They are all, to date, negative.


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## Feral Nature (Feb 21, 2007)

I have to say this: I would never knowingly sell a goat with CAE or CL or any illness. I would never send a sick goat to the auction or back to the auction. If I could not shoot it and bury it, I would slit it's throat and burn it. There you go.


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Feb 17, 2003)

Here we have meat pens, you tell the auction it is to be sold only as meat and why, the vet stamps the card and there you go, the animal can not go to a farm or be bought by an individual. Its the honor system, but I have no problem with someone doing that. I think auctions are different in different parts of the country, but I bet if someone asked, that most auction houses do something similar.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I CL test but you have to be willing to interpret the results, kinda. If you buy from abscess free herds (which I do), or your herd is abscess free, and all the sudden you get a borderline or a positve for CL, most likely it is a false positive. Since it's only 80% accurate, it can be still useful in preventing the diease spread from INTERNAL abscesses, which is why I still do the blood testing. I've had a few borderlines and even a couple positive CL tests - never once in near 10 years of goat raising have I had a single abscess of any sort in any of my goats. You'd think by now that I'd have at least ONE show an external abscess, as from what I understand the internal ones are less common than the external ones.

Anywho, I'd immediately cull any CL positives, so I guess you could call that milk 'dumping'.  I would NOT drink any milk from CL positives. 

CAE I personally wouldn't mind drinking raw (it is a retrovirus but very species specific) but I'd only likely mess with it if I didn't have any kids to raise on the bottle. Otherwise I would likely just milk and feed to chickens/ducks. That way I could NOT mess it up. I also can all of my milk on the stovetop, for bottle feeding, so even if I did mess up I'm PRETTY sure I'd stop the disease in it's tracks. To keep from feeding completely dead milk I kefir it, so it's still beneficial to them. I have one keeper doeling still on the bottle, growing like a WEED and she is on kefired milk. 

When I did have CAE positives I literally pulled kids straight from the doe, no contact, and didn't milk the does, Except sparingly to keep udders from being TOO painful... and then it was right on the ground outside of the iso pen. I then butchered at my earliest convenience. I loved those does but I did what was best for my herd


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## TSYORK (Mar 16, 2006)

Who tests CL? I don't see where Bioprn offers such, just CAE, unless I'm overlooking it.


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## WagleFarm (Feb 9, 2007)

I have tested for CL with blood test. My vet sent the blood to Texas Veterinary Medical Diagnostic Laboratory. I bought one Nubian doe years ago, and noticed a small amount of swelling in one of her Lymph glands. I took her to my vet and they tried to draw fliud out with a needle. Nothing came out. I asked them to test her for CL and the results came back Pos with a 1:4 titer. Comments were Low titer, probably non-specific or due to exposure. Thank goodness she was still in isolation. I tested 12 other goats all with neg. results and have never had another problem.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

WADDL and PAVL both test for CL.


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

Kshobbit said:


> Where else do you take culls but to an auction? I can't keep unhealthy goat to an unsuspecting person and never will. Elder B.E. Sallee of Jesus Way Goats in Tennessee was my hero about being very honest about your goats when selling them.


KShobbit,

In Kansas, i have only found a miniscule handful that care about passing off diseased animals. First thing you do is if you find a goat you want, go see it, take a syringe and blood tube with you for every animal your looking to buy. write up a contract for purchase indicating that upon a clean test result you will purchase the animal. 

Then draw blood have it tested and work from there. 

I know of only about 4 or 5 goat folks that have clean herds. I Got an CL infected goatie due to some one who is very well known in the goatworld selling us a cl animal to us. They knew it and didn't care. It doesn't affect my fiber goaties so i keep them, as they are mostly pets now. So when they do die, i will dispose of them in a burn pit, then i will clean my property up. But i also do not allow my goaties to leave here either. 

As far as drinking milk, i drink the milk, only if there is no abcess present. I toss it if there is. I lance them when they come up to prevent more spreading. I believe its safe unless one happens to be in the udder of which i haven't seen. 

If i get any doelings from them, i am going to pull them at birth and bottle feed them off of my cow. I have another acre of land around my house that is separate from the pasture so they can live there until i get the pasture burned and cleaned up. FOr the most part i think burning the pasture, along with liming it, will clean the disease off of it, and leaving it fallow for about 6 months to a year will ensure it is clean as sunlight does kill the disease. The only other things that need to be done to clean up is to use formalin on all the posts, and barns, and fence wire. That will kill any possible contamination. As for the soil in the barns, i'll dig it out and compost it then put on my garden. 

How do i know this works? We did it on another farm and in 1 year it was clean and new disease free goaties are running around on it.


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

Pony said:


> The way I read it, she essentially said that she disclosed the goat's status at the barn.
> 
> Maybe they run the sales differently in KS? <shrug>


Not a chance, you go to a auction you get what you buy. They don't disclose squat


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Natural Beauty Farm said:


> Here we have meat pens, you tell the auction it is to be sold only as meat and why, the vet stamps the card and there you go, the animal can not go to a farm or be bought by an individual. Its the honor system, but I have no problem with someone doing that. I think auctions are different in different parts of the country, but I bet if someone asked, that most auction houses do something similar.


The vet at auctions is a good point. Many people do not realize that all animals at an auction are checked by a vet before sale. If the animal has any CL lumps or swollen knees from CAE, it has to be sold as "meat only", so it usually goes to a chivo dealer. The meat is cooked before eating, so it is safe to be used as meat. 
You don't have to kill and "burn" these animals. You can easily butcher them or sell them to butcher because they are safe for meat. And licensed vets must check all animals at auctions prior to sale. In fact, I have bought animals marked out at auctions for very little. A pig with rhinitis bought for two dollars is a GREAT buy. You cook it before you eat it, so there is no risk.


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## hobbyfarmer (Oct 10, 2007)

SH09- You were burned because you didn't know any better. It's just one of those lessons every breeder has to learn one way or the other if they want to maintain a clean herd. Only very new buyers or breeders who aren't concerned with CAE and CL will even consider buying goats from an auction. The sale barn is where culls end up. There is no other choice for most people. A responsible breeder culls heavily. The sale barn is a necessary evil. We send almost all our bucklings there without papers and no one has ever asked any health questions. They don't bring anything compared to how much I would sell them for privately - from a clean herd, excellent bloodlines, and registration papers......but, there isn't a huge market for bucks and wethers so the sale barn is the best choice for me. It is what it is. I don't think it's the seller's responsibility to monitor who buys the goats at auction. That's what private sales are for- and that's why a goat will cost you more if you buy it off the farm than it will at the sale barn. At auction, a goat's health status is really the buyer's responsibility. If you want a goat for pennies on the dollar of it's true value, you take your chances, imo.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

> Many people do not realize that all animals at an auction are checked by a vet before sale


A false statement and one likely to cause problems for lots of people.
This depends largely on the auction house and even what is being sold at auction.
On goat days at our local livestock sales barn there is no vet, he comes on Tuesdays for the dairy sale.
At the local Amish sale there is no vet ever. Any vet check is taken care of by the seller before the sale.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

sammyd said:


> A false statement and one likely to cause problems for lots of people.


It is not a false statement. In this state every sale animal is checked by a vet before it is sold at the auction. The vets come directly to the auction barn and check each animal, plus there is paperwork and tags on each animal. 

Don't say it's false because you are wrong. Perhaps it is not that way in every nation? But I know it is done here in this state at every auction because I have gone to hundreds of them at many sale barns and they are all the done the same way.


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## Creamers (Aug 3, 2010)

> I don't think it's the seller's responsibility to monitor who buys the goats at auction. That's what private sales are for- and that's why a goat will cost you more if you buy it off the farm than it will at the sale barn. At auction, a goat's health status is really the buyer's responsibility. If you want a goat for pennies on the dollar of it's true value, you take your chances, imo.


I agree. That said, I have never had to use an auction for sales.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

It would help if everyone put their location in their User CP (Control Panel) so that it shows on each post. Helps keep one from getting their panties in a wad.:clap:

The universal statement that a vet is at all sales is not correct at all auction sales across the whole country.

It may be valid for your location and/or state.

Sick animals are sold at auction in southern Missouri. I have never seen a vet at two of the smaller auction sales that I've attended. I know the sale at West Plains does have a vet, because it's MY vet, and I can't get help two days each week.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Yes, please, when you make a statement like "a vet is present at every auction" do put your location. I know vets are not present at auctions here.


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## Kshobbit (May 14, 2002)

Barelahh, you are correct that the Kansas auctioneers do not discuss any health problems unless they are obvious. Those goats sell for little money. I did not take those goats to an auction to get rid of them at someone else's expense. I can not shoot or cut throats and bury or burn(how do you burn an adult goat?) I was upset because I bought the two CAE does at a BREEDING STOCK auction that was highly advertised and sponsored by the Kansas Meat Goat Breeders Assoc. In Kansas, if you buy from any of the local livestock auctions, it is buyer beware. I sell most of my goats to private breeders and point out any and all flaws before they buy them. The wethers and extra bucks go to the auction as well as does with bad udders, poor confirmation etc etc. Or I put them in my freezer. I love goats and try to be a responsible breeder but think sometimes goat people are a little anal retentive.(including myself)


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

An adult goat can be burned by piling brush, limbs, old fence posts, etc., on it. A funeral pyre.


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## jordan (Nov 29, 2006)

sammyd said:


> A false statement and one likely to cause problems for lots of people.
> This depends largely on the auction house and even what is being sold at auction.
> On goat days at our local livestock sales barn there is no vet, he comes on Tuesdays for the dairy sale.
> At the local Amish sale there is no vet ever. Any vet check is taken care of by the seller before the sale.


Maybe it is your location... In southern WI at the Equity Sales barn there is always at least two vets present for cattle, sheep/goat or pigs.
Lois


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## jordan (Nov 29, 2006)

Natural Beauty Farm said:


> Here we have meat pens, you tell the auction it is to be sold only as meat and why, the vet stamps the card and there you go, the animal can not go to a farm or be bought by an individual. Its the honor system, but I have no problem with someone doing that. I think auctions are different in different parts of the country, but I bet if someone asked, that most auction houses do something similar.


It is the law in WI that you cannot sell any animal with a known disease without disclosure. That includes private sale or auction. 
I suppose it would be traced back through the lab results if someone wanted to prosecute or file a complaint.
Lois


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## Kshobbit (May 14, 2002)

I live on the edge of a small town (pop. 300). Most folks here think that I am slightly peculiar for loving and raising goats. If you have ever lived in a small Kansas town you know that you can not do anything without someone noticing and commenting on it. I just see and hear the comments if and when I build a funeral pyre for a goat and burn the body! Think of all the strange looks, calls to the fire department, and the EPA, possible commitment to our State Mental Hospital. 
I had no idea that Kansas was the only state that does not have a vet at the livestock auctions or allows you to sell your culls at an auction. I was only talking about two CAE positive goats that looked healthy. And two goats with abscesses that did not have them when sold(incised, drained and antibiotics) I feel like some kind of criminal or lunatic. You must live in a very secluded rural area to blithely burn your culls, perhaps dance around the pyre, flinging flowers and drinking wine?????


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

What a good idea! You left out Naked and By the Full Moon.:dance:

Seriously, a LOT of us on the board live VERY rural.

Burning carcasses is the preferred method of disposal.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Hey! If you have a pond, you could do a VIKING FUNERAL!


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

CAE milk doesn't have to be dumped. I would not drink or use milk from a doe with CL because the abscesses can be interal, including in the udder. Imagine drinking milk with that nasty pus in it. Bleah!:umno:


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Oh, and Kshobbit, people think I'm peculiar, too, but it probably doesn't have anything to do with my goats.

It's because I AM peculiar.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

mekasmom said:


> It is not a false statement. In this state every sale animal is checked by a vet before it is sold at the auction. The vets come directly to the auction barn and check each animal, plus there is paperwork and tags on each animal.
> 
> Don't say it's false because you are wrong. Perhaps it is not that way in every nation? But I know it is done here in this state at every auction because I have gone to hundreds of them at many sale barns and they are all the done the same way.



cae and cl is not something you see from just loking at the animals. it takes blood work and a couple of days to get the result. even tb and brucella or johnes takes a while to get results.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

for many goat raiser, (meat or dairy) it is not an option to just shoot an animal because for what ever reason they might have. in my opinion auctions are a good option as there is at least a bit of return. there should be two distinct kind of auctions. one for buying breeding stock ( they should have paper work that attest they are negative for infectious diseases) and auctions where the animals are not sold to the public but only to slaughter houses. but this is wishful thinking.
people should educate them self before buying. thinking to safe some money and buying at auctions could become very expensive. who is to blame? not the seller or the auction house. the buyer alone is responsible for his action.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

People are humans. Humans do not *usually* study and learn about a project before jumping off into it. First goat purchases are often an impulse because the goats are "cute."

Saying "people should" do this and that flies in the face of reality. People simply don't.

Auctions are in the business of making money fast. They do not have the responsibility of educating buyers. That's just the reality.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

so, who do you want to blame?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

That's the point. There is *no* blaming. Blaming is a waste of mental energy and produces no change.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

i agree


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## Creamers (Aug 3, 2010)

You live and learn. 

You buy from an auction because you know no better. . . 

okay, but common sense should tell someone - cheap is never better. Go to a reliable breeder - you shouldn't need to know about CAE, CL or anything else to know not to use an auction.

Common sense isn't found too often. . . lol.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Before I actually learned from others, I would have thought auctions were just fine. I thought auctions were like the 4-H auctions at the fair. <shrug>

It's not a matter of common sense, I think, as it is about ignorance.

I was ignorant. And that can be fixed by seeking and acquiring knowledge.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Kshobbit said:


> I live on the edge of a small town (pop. 300). Most folks here think that I am slightly peculiar for loving and raising goats. If you have ever lived in a small Kansas town you know that you can not do anything without someone noticing and commenting on it. I just see and hear the comments if and when I build a funeral pyre for a goat and burn the body! Think of all the strange looks, calls to the fire department, and the EPA, possible commitment to our State Mental Hospital.
> I had no idea that Kansas was the only state that does not have a vet at the livestock auctions or allows you to sell your culls at an auction. I was only talking about two CAE positive goats that looked healthy. And two goats with abscesses that did not have them when sold(incised, drained and antibiotics) I feel like some kind of criminal or lunatic. You must live in a very secluded rural area to blithely burn your culls, perhaps dance around the pyre, flinging flowers and drinking wine?????


We live in a small Kansas town and no way would we be allowed to burn a goat. Livestock is only tolerated for the most part here. In fact the city council (hehehe, the powers that be in this town think they are a city) passed an ordinance against having livestock in town. The only problem is that nobody in town paid any attention to them and everyone still has their livestock and in fact some people have added some. Hard to enforce the ordinanace when several prominent business owners raise a beef calf in their backyard. They tried one time to enforce it and the lady reamed their hide and threaten to sue for discrimination since they weren't making any of wealthier residents get rid of their animals. No more attempts at enforcement have taken place. But there are a surprising amount of small towns in Kansas that won't allow any livestock at all. Stupid really. 

This is why when we get the chance we will move out of this town.

So if we ended up with a goat we wanted to cull for any reason, we would have to send it to the sale barn. I would not cull for CAE. I would either make sure I was present for the birth and pull the kids immediatly and raise on strict prevention or breed her to a meat buck and put the kids in the freezer. I will be sending in for CAE testing this fall when I send in to see if they are pregnant. Hopefully it won't be an issue with any of them. 

CL on the other hand I would cull. Luckily, we have never had an abcess here.

Oh and I love the Viking Funeral idea,lol.


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