# St. Louis riots



## Cornhusker

I don't understand why some people will use any tragedy as an excuse to riot, loot and generally destroy the property of people who had nothing to do with the thing that set them off.
Is it just an excuse for people to act out?
A chance to get some more free stuff and not get caught?
It's OK because everybody is doing it?
What is wrong with people?
Story


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## supernovae

No one should riot just as our police should try not to shoot kids. I don't want to be in the officers shoes and i don't want to be in the families shoes. Either is inexcusable if you ask me.

For store owners, all that stuff can be replaced and is insurable. Not so much for the kid who was apparently shot 8 times. We should be looking at solving the disparity in crime/punishment and working towards civil remedies rather than rioting, looting and undoubtedly more police shootings.


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## simi-steading

Some people want to riot, and are just looking for an excuse to do it... It's not so much about the riot, as it is about the looting... Read in the story the places they looted... cell phone store, tire store (dubs for the ride), sporting goods, (hats, Jerseys) quick trip (liquor) Good thing there wasn't an electronics store there... 

As far as the kid that got shot that caused all this, I've read a lot about it, and if I would have been the cop, I probably would have shot him too in fear of my life.

This really is nothing more than an excuse for a lot of people.. Most could care less about the reason or the kid it started over..


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## TripleD

The looters are lucky that I wasn't a store owner......


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## Seth

Cornhusker said:


> I don't understand why some people will use any tragedy as an excuse to riot, loot and generally destroy the property of people who had nothing to do with the thing that set them off.
> Is it just an excuse for people to act out?
> A chance to get some more free stuff and not get caught?
> It's OK because everybody is doing it?
> What is wrong with people?
> Story



They are subhuman. Shoot them too.


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## JJ Grandits

It is hard to be treated with respect when all you can do is act like an animal.


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## supernovae

JJ Grandits said:


> It is hard to be treated with respect when all you can do is act like an animal.


That's how some people see the police.


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## thestartupman

You also have to look at how the media covers the story. They give the image of another terrible police shooting, instead of a policeman trying to defend himself. They show the looters as just the way things happen. As far as the store owners having insurance to cover their loss, think again. The insurance doesn't cover 100%. It doesn't cover the loss of business that will happen for days to come. It doesn't cover employees who decide that it's not worth their safety to work there. It doesn't cover the fear they may have to return to work themselves. The people who riot like this should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.


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## Glade Runner

supernovae said:


> That's how some people see the police.


That would be the criminal, low-life scum segment of society.


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## Glade Runner

Interesting that armed men are protecting some businesses and they don't seem to be having a problem.


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## MO_cows

What is not so widely reported in the news, a group of citizens marched in front of the police station yesterday. Peaceful protest. Also, some residents of the community came out to help the business owners clean up. There are plenty of good folks there, too, don't paint them all with a broad brush just because they are in the same demographic as the rioters and looters. 

Hope there were security cameras, dash-cams, something that recorded the incident so it isn't just one witness against another. The sooner the truth comes out, the better.


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## rambotex

What Mo Cows said:

I also read that there were some folks there that were not local that instigated some of it. And, very quickly, Travon Martin's Attorney is already on the case.

With regard to the insurance: many commercial policies do not cover "Riot and Civil Commotion". Some Companies offer the Policyholder the option to purchase this coverage back but the majority of Business Owners decline to purchase the coverage because of:
A. It will never happen to me
or
B. I'm already paying all I can afford.


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## simi-steading

Glade Runner said:


> That would be the criminal, low-life scum segment of society.


Not really. Any more I mostly see the police as jack booted thugs hungry on power, helping the rich get richer by throwing many good people in corporate run, for profit jails..


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## JJ Grandits

supernovae said:


> That's how some people see the police.


 
Far more people see the "protestors" that way.

You know, I have protested several times. I was at one in Albany a few months ago. But I never had the urge to start burning and looting. Wonder why that is?


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## Cornhusker

Glade Runner said:


> Interesting that armed men are protecting some businesses and they don't seem to be having a problem.


Yep, and that's why the left is trying to take away our rights to protect ourselves and our property.
They tend to side with the bad guys.


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## Harry Chickpea

You can't start a fire with wet tinder. Riots and protests do not suddenly pop into existence with no cause.

In just about any mass protest there are going to be criminals and opportunists and those who just love a bit of destruction. That doesn't mean the core issue has no validity. The excesses of police are now getting more widespread coverage. Look at the reddit headlines for a few days and you'll see police crimes that are every bit as heinous as the worst crimes of the general population.

When you add the smouldering paper of a video showing a police trooper beating a woman senseless on an L.A. freeway, another officer and his compatriots choking a black market seller to death and then doing nothing, and a few other incendiary items, and then have a local officer shoot an unarmed man (along with whatever other local excesses might have been festering) and you have the makings of a conflagration.


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## rambotex

Harry Chickpea said:


> You can't start a fire with wet tinder. Riots and protests do not suddenly pop into existence with no cause.
> 
> In just about any mass protest there are going to be criminals and opportunists and those who just love a bit of destruction. That doesn't mean the core issue has no validity. The excesses of police are now getting more widespread coverage. Look at the reddit headlines for a few days and you'll see police crimes that are every bit as heinous as the worst crimes of the general population.
> 
> When you add the smouldering paper of a video showing a police trooper beating a woman senseless on an L.A. freeway, another officer and his compatriots choking a black market seller to death and then doing nothing, and a few other incendiary items, and then have a local officer shoot an unarmed man (along with whatever other local excesses might have been festering) and you have the makings of a conflagration.


I'm far to the Right but agree with most of this post. I'll tell you who has more power than most in your local Governments; the County/District Attorneys and the Judges that hear those cases. If a DA/CA wants to break it off in you there is little you can do. If he knows your Sister's, Best Friend's, Brother In Law's Cousin, he'll(they'll) take it easy on them.


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## JJ Grandits

I can not deny that the actions of some of our so called law enforcement officers resemble those of jack booted thugs. But that is still no excuse. What does rioting and looting accomplish outside of getting things for a five finger discount? How does expressing your anger against the police involve breaking windows, looting and setting fires? If Im angry with the neighbor on one side I do not attack the neighbor on the other. The shooting was not a reason, it was an excuse. 

Thank God Al Sharpton is heading down there to bring some reason to the situation.


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## rambotex

If Al is on the way Jessie won't be far behind him. 

And, by the way, I agree with your post too.


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## JJ Grandits

Well you can't have a Circus until you bring on the clowns.


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## thestartupman

If people were wanting to protest what a policeman has done, why would you not take the protest to a police station? I would say the reason why is to find another way to get something for nothing.


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## Harry Chickpea

They did protest at the police station. Grandits pegged it. There are always clowns. Be very scared of groups of clowns.


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## simi-steading

thestartupman said:


> If people were wanting to protest what a policeman has done, why would you not take the protest to a police station? I would say the reason why is to find another way to get something for nothing.


Notice too they said in the article that the group that started the riots mostly weren't even from that area.. They saw a party opportunity and went..


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## JJ Grandits

Well, obviously we are all racist SOB's. Shame on us all. Stupid, arrorgant, white people.


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## haypoint

Last year, Detroit had 5,000 Arsons. Why? Is it because the homes and businesses are more flammable than other cities?
When a football team wins a game, the folks back home react by burning a few cars.
Arson and looting gives power to those that otherwise feel powerless.
Blacks are 17% of the population but get shot 5 times as often as whites. Mostly it is by other Blacks, but who's counting?
If Blacks commit 70% of the violent crimes in this country, can anyone see a connection with the crazy woman trying to run out into the freeway, the 400 pound resistor selling cigarettes and the kid that tried to get the cops gun in St. Louis? It is a propensity to lawlessness, resisting police directions and unbridled aggression against police.
That Detroit has a 84% Black population, topping the nation in cities over 100,000, is also known as the Murder Capital of the US is just coincidence.
That a 12 year old Black male stabbed to death a 9 year old white stranger in Grand Rapids, MI last week and no one rioted and the national news didn't headline it says volumes.


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## MO_cows

Yes, the media seems to downplay stories that are "unflattering" to minorities, or they report in the most vague, nonspecific terms. They aren't doing anybody any favors, we are all better off when the whole truth comes out. Isn't the first step admitting there is a problem??? As long as the problems are denied or covered up, they can't be fixed.


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## Cornhusker

haypoint said:


> Last year, Detroit had 5,000 Arsons. Why? Is it because the homes and businesses are more flammable than other cities?
> When a football team wins a game, the folks back home react by burning a few cars.
> Arson and looting gives power to those that otherwise feel powerless.
> Blacks are 17% of the population but get shot 5 times as often as whites. Mostly it is by other Blacks, but who's counting?
> If Blacks commit 70% of the violent crimes in this country, can anyone see a connection with the crazy woman trying to run out into the freeway, the 400 pound resistor selling cigarettes and the kid that tried to get the cops gun in St. Louis? It is a propensity to lawlessness, resisting police directions and unbridled aggression against police.
> That Detroit has a 84% Black population, topping the nation in over 100,000 cities is also know as the Murder Capital of the US is just coincidence.
> That a 12 year old Black male stabbed to death a 9 year old white stranger in Grand Rapids, MI last week and no one rioted and the national news didn't headline it says volumes.


When you are taught from birth that you are oppressed and entitled at the same time, you don't respect anything or anybody.
Thank a democrat


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## gweny

I seem to recall something in school about a tea party in the Boston harbor... I bet the Brits published papers about that looting / riot.
How many wars have started by civilians rioting and looting?
What is the difference between a criminal and a revolutionist or freedom fighter? 
I would say intent.


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## haypoint

A few weeks ago, in Detroit, a Black teenager stepped backwards into the street and was hit by a vehicle. When the white driver stopped to check on the boy, a group of Black bystanders attacked the man. This drew a crowd of fifty people. The man was so badly beaten he remained in a coma for two weeks. Police were unable to get any witness statements. No one saw anything. Nearby surveillance cameras were used to convict three men, but the evidence was so weak that they were able to cop a plea for a year in jail.
Black on Black crime is so common it is barely news anymore. Black on White crime is difficult to prosecute without witnesses. But when it is perceived a White person committed a crime against a Black person, riots ensue. I predict that in St. Louis, all the Black witnesses will testify that the Black youth that was shot and killed was doing nothing at all and the Policeman just shot him totally without cause. The cell phone videos that show differently will vanish. The Police Officer will go to prison.
Yes, I know history. We have been taught of racial injustices in this nation's past. The nation feels the guilt. Sometimes it seems as if the harder this country tries to insure equality, reduce poverty, increase opportunity, the greater the lawlessness and immorality.

gweny, smashing the windows out of a store and stealing a TV because of an electrical blackout, because of a hurricane, because your team won a football game, or because you heard a cop shot a kid, isn't the Boston Tea Party.


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## gweny

haypoint said:


> A few weeks ago, in Detroit, a Black teenager stepped backwards into the street and was hit by a vehicle. When the white driver stopped to check on the boy, a group of Black bystanders attacked the man. This drew a crowd of fifty people. The man was so badly beaten he remained in a coma for two weeks. Police were unable to get any witness statements. No one saw anything. Nearby surveillance cameras were used to convict three men, but the evidence was so weak that they were able to cop a plea for a year in jail.
> Black on Black crime is so common it is barely news anymore. Black on White crime is difficult to prosecute without witnesses. But when it is perceived a White person committed a crime against a Black person, riots ensue. I predict that in St. Louis, all the Black witnesses will testify that the Black youth that was shot and killed was doing nothing at all and the Policeman just shot him totally without cause. The cell phone videos that show differently will vanish. The Police Officer will go to prison.
> Yes, I know history. We have been taught of racial injustices in this nation's past. The nation feels the guilt. Sometimes it seems as if the harder this country tries to insure equality, reduce poverty, increase opportunity, the greater the lawlessness and immorality.
> 
> gweny, smashing the windows out of a store and stealing a TV because of an electrical blackout, because of a hurricane, because your team won a football game, or because you heard a cop shot a kid, isn't the Boston Tea Party.


I agree that the football game and hurricane looting are not revolts. There is no political purpose there. But, a demonstration against the enforcers of our governments laws is the stuff revolutions are made of. 
The articles linked in this thread spoke of people coming from out of town and credits them with inciting the crowd.... Perhaps a persuasive speaker led them to revolt?
I'm not saying I agree with the actions. I'm simply trying to see the issue from all angles, playing devils advocate if you will.
If a revolution started in this country do you think it would be the nice folks in suburbia fighting? I just don't see any history to support that. Will it be the farmers fighting big ag? There just aren't enough of them in one place. No, revolt will start when the poorest people packed into the worst conditions have had enough.


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## haypoint

"No, revolt will start when the poorest people packed into the worst conditions have had enough."
Perhaps.
But great social change may come from the working poor, tired of funding the lawless, thankless mobs of non-productive takers, demand that their government follow their wishes and reduce the unsustainable programs that have spawned this take, take, take mentality. 
Saddam Hussein was a ruthless dictator. He presided over a population of lawless people and controlled violence with threats of violence and acts of violence. In our civilized society, we are much kinder and tolerant. How long can our expectations of civility go unmet?
I cannot see into the future and I have no answers. But I do see that what we have done so far isn't working.
Let's be careful not to confuse demonstrations with looting. Where is the connection between the belief of an injustice and an attack on totally unrelated businesses? Only when you see yourself as oppressed and everything that is not your color is the enemy, can you condone hurting innocent business owners. Interesting that those that band together over this do it based solely on race, yet others will be criticized when broad brushing this as a problem with Blacks.


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## Cornhusker

gweny said:


> I seem to recall something in school about a tea party in the Boston harbor... I bet the Brits published papers about that looting / riot.
> How many wars have started by civilians rioting and looting?
> What is the difference between a criminal and a revolutionist or freedom fighter?
> I would say intent.


The Boston Tea Party was a point against the tax on tea (among others)
Looting and rioting is just an excuse to steal and destroy.
The people they hurt the most had nothing to do with what they pretended to be upset about.
It's just an excuse.


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## gweny

Cornhusker said:


> The Boston Tea Party was a point against the tax on tea (among others)
> Looting and rioting is just an excuse to steal and destroy.
> The people they hurt the most had nothing to do with what they pretended to be upset about.
> It's just an excuse.


Oh an excuse! Kinda like the nazis night of broken windows?


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## gweny

haypoint said:


> "No, revolt will start when the poorest people packed into the worst conditions have had enough."
> Perhaps.
> But great social change may come from the working poor, tired of funding the lawless, thankless mobs of non-productive takers, demand that their government follow their wishes and reduce the unsustainable programs that have spawned this take, take, take mentality.
> Saddam Hussein was a ruthless dictator. He presided over a population of lawless people and controlled violence with threats of violence and acts of violence. In our civilized society, we are much kinder and tolerant. How long can our expectations of civility go unmet?
> I cannot see into the future and I have no answers. But I do see that what we have done so far isn't working.
> Let's be careful not to confuse demonstrations with looting. Where is the connection between the belief of an injustice and an attack on totally unrelated businesses? Only when you see yourself as oppressed and everything that is not your color is the enemy, can you condone hurting innocent business owners. Interesting that those that band together over this do it based solely on race, yet others will be criticized when broad brushing this as a problem with Blacks.


Here in DC the cost of living is so high that the working poor live in the streets. Little tent cities are popping up overnight. There are families there. Others live in their cars. 
I count them as part of the inner city population; which is anything but kind or tolerant. It is a war zone. Gangs are nationwide now and very organized and armed. They have one leader at the top of a well defined chain of command. How is that any different than a war lord? 
These programs / government handouts many want to cut are the governments way of pacifying them. Let their children starve and see what happens!

The link you are looking for... They believe that government and big business are one in the same. They call it 'the (white is often implied) man' and believe he has been kicking them while they are down as far back as anyone alive can remember. 30% of DC believes that aids was created by our government to kill them (according to a Washington post article last month). Go to inner cities where the jobless count is higher and I'm sure the sentiment goes deeper.


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## rambotex

gweny said:


> Here in DC the cost of living is so high that the working poor live in the streets. Little tent cities are popping up overnight. There are families there. Others live in their cars.
> I count them as part of the inner city population; which is anything but kind or tolerant. It is a war zone. Gangs are nationwide now and very organized and armed. They have one leader at the top of a well defined chain of command. How is that any different than a war lord?
> These programs / government handouts many want to cut are the governments way of pacifying them. Let their children starve and see what happens!


Why don't they get a job?


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## doingitmyself

Now imagine a train load of hoodlums off loading at a predetermined point to cause mayhem, steal smash and grab then jump back on the CTA to get out of town. This happened in Chicago just last night, and is happening with increased regularity. 

A few snipers placed in high incident areas with through the scope video and high expansion bullets patched through the local news station would curb that kind of activity. Bullets are cheap, thugs are plentiful, seems like a match made for each other. Funny thing about thugs, they value their own lives much more than they do other peoples lives.


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## mnn2501

gweny said:


> I seem to recall something in school about a tea party in the Boston harbor... I bet the Brits published papers about that looting / riot.
> How many wars have started by civilians rioting and looting?
> What is the difference between a criminal and a revolutionist or freedom fighter?
> I would say intent.


Unlike these animals, the Boston Tea Party didn't go around looting and burning businesses having nothing to do with the Tea Tax.


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## Cornhusker

gweny said:


> Oh an excuse! Kinda like the nazis night of broken windows?


So the rioters are akin to Nazis?
Not sure of your point here, and I'm not sure why you are defending theft and arson.


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## gweny

rambotex said:


> Why don't they get a job?


Then they would be paying taxes and supporting "the man". They protest by sucking off the govt. teet. They feel they are owed it for the persecution they endure.

It's easy to judge, but worthwhile to reserve judgement to try and understand them. 

I bet the British though we were ridiculously entitled when they read our presumptuous 'declaration of independence.'


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## Jim-mi

why do they stay in DC ?


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## gweny

Cornhusker said:


> So the rioters are akin to Nazis?
> Not sure of your point here, and I'm not sure why you are defending theft and arson.


Lol, no. As stated previously, I am not condoning any parties action. I am simply seeking truth and playing devils advocate. I mention the nazis as simply one of many revolt / lootings through out history.

They are people , not animals. The other side deserves to be heard. Their opinion is just as valid as yours or mine. It is their truth.


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## gweny

Jim-mi said:


> why do they stay in DC ?


Because there are jobs here.


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## gweny

gweny said:


> Because there are jobs here.


Also, child support is high here and CSE is vicious). It takes months to years to get all your paperwork through to receive government funding (they would have to file elsewhere and would likely be turned down for many programs due to limited residency clauses)


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## Cornhusker

gweny said:


> Lol, no. As stated previously, I am not condoning any parties action. I am simply seeking truth and playing devils advocate. I mention the nazis as simply one of many revolt / lootings through out history.
> 
> They are people , not animals. The other side deserves to be heard. Their opinion is just as valid as yours or mine. It is their truth.


So stealing, burning and ruining the lives of those not involved is their "truth"?
I don't get it :shrug:


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## DAVID In Wisconsin

gweny said:


> They are people , not animals. The other side deserves to be heard. Their opinion is just as valid as yours or mine. It is their truth.


Most animals have better manners so the first part must be true. Why would anyone care about the opinions of a group that is destroying what their peers have worked for? Listen to them? No, lock 'em up. And that is my valid opinion and my truth.


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## haypoint

gweny said:


> Here in DC the cost of living is so high that the working poor live in the streets. Little tent cities are popping up overnight. There are families there. Others live in their cars.
> I count them as part of the inner city population; which is anything but kind or tolerant. It is a war zone. Gangs are nationwide now and very organized and armed. They have one leader at the top of a well defined chain of command. How is that any different than a war lord?
> These programs / government handouts many want to cut are the governments way of pacifying them. Let their children starve and see what happens!
> 
> The link you are looking for... They believe that government and big business are one in the same. They call it 'the (white is often implied) man' and believe he has been kicking them while they are down as far back as anyone alive can remember. 30% of DC believes that aids was created by our government to kill them (according to a Washington post article last month). Go to inner cities where the jobless count is higher and I'm sure the sentiment goes deeper.


I understand. You get your experiences from living in a Black community, Washington DC. I get mine from 27 years working in a State Prison, housing 70% Blacks, mostly from the Black community known as Detroit.
Many feel that their presence in a prison is a benefit as they are providing jobs, Prison Guards, etc. and therefore many families depend on them for the paychecks thus generated. Be3ing on Welfare also creates jobs for Social Workers. You might youtube "Obama's Stash".
Another common belief is that all white people got off to a better start because of the money white people got using slave labor. So, in a variety of ways, white people owe the black people.
To buy into that belief, you'd need to forget that at that time, most northern farmers were sharecroppers and often lived in homes without floors or running water. They just barely got by and never got ahead enough to move away, often farmed out their children. Not slave conditions, but not far either.
If slavery was such a lasting benefit, the wealthiest states would be Georgia and Mississippi. Conversely, the poorest would be states with little slavery, like NY and CA.
If the cost of living in Washington, DC is so high and there are no homes, send them to Detroit. We've got 100,000 vacant homes. Sure, many have been vandalized, but still better than sleeping in the street. Unless the benefits of looking helpless are better in DC?


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## Glade Runner

gweny said:


> The other side deserves to be heard. Their opinion is just as valid as yours or mine. It is their truth.


Ridiculous. The opinions of people who are rioting, looting, and shooting at police helicopters is not a valid as mine, or any other law abiding citizen. They may deserve to be heard but this is absolutely not an acceptable method of self expression. High time we went back to shooting looters on sight. Making excuses for this kind of conduct is truly pathetic and whole lot of what's wrong with society today.


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## poppy

supernovae said:


> That's how some people see the police.


Of course they do. They don't want anyone to hold them accountable for breaking the law. You notice they didn't even wait for an investigation before looting. From what I've read, there was an altercation in the cop's car before the shooting started. What was the altercation that started it about? I suspect the young guy (not a kid) didn't like being arrested and decided to resist. Lesson: do not start an altercation with anyone with a gun. Yes, there are lousy cops who often overstep their bounds and often aren't held accountable, but most are just trying to do their job. The FBI is investigating and that should be enough for the looters.


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## gweny

haypoint said:


> I understand. You get your experiences from living in a Black community, Washington DC. I get mine from 27 years working in a State Prison, housing 70% Blacks, mostly from the Black community known as Detroit.
> Many feel that their presence in a prison is a benefit as they are providing jobs, Prison Guards, etc. and therefore many families depend on them for the paychecks thus generated. Be3ing on Welfare also creates jobs for Social Workers. You might youtube "Obama's Stash".
> Another common belief is that all white people got off to a better start because of the money white people got using slave labor. So, in a variety of ways, white people owe the black people.
> To buy into that belief, you'd need to forget that at that time, most northern farmers were sharecroppers and often lived in homes without floors or running water. They just barely got by and never got ahead enough to move away, often farmed out their children. Not slave conditions, but not far either.
> If slavery was such a lasting benefit, the wealthiest states would be Georgia and Mississippi. Conversely, the poorest would be states with little slavery, like NY and CA.
> If the cost of living in Washington, DC is so high and there are no homes, send them to Detroit. We've got 100,000 vacant homes. Sure, many have been vandalized, but still better than sleeping in the street. Unless the benefits of looking helpless are better in DC?


The benefits of looking helpless are most assuredly better in DC! People have jobs. Hence money. We live in an economic bubble here just like the dot-com valley. Poor still shocks people into opening their wallets here.


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## gweny

If some would read the sentiment in this thread :shakes head: it certainly validates why they protest.


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## TRellis

gweny said:


> Lol, no. As stated previously, I am not condoning any parties action. I am simply seeking truth and playing devils advocate. I mention the nazis as simply one of many revolt / lootings through out history.
> 
> They are people , not animals. The other side deserves to be heard. Their opinion is just as valid as yours or mine. It is *their truth*.



I understand your "their truth" statement to a small degree, but I think that you may need to expound on it a bit more. Particularly with regards to when "their truth" is no longer considered to be a normally accepted justification for "their actions".

Are you saying that the Nazi's actions during Kristallnacht were justified because their actions were the direct result of "their truth"? And that perhaps everyone else should have just sat down with Nazi's and had a discussion with them about how "their truth" led them to their actions? Didn't Neville Chamberlain try something similar to this? Historically, that has not worked out very well for him.

To correlate this with more current events, using your _"The other side deserves to be heard. Their opinion is just as valid as yours or mine."_ logic, are we to call the leader of ISIS/ISIL and ask him to sit down with us and discuss "their truth" in an attempt to determine why they are killing innocent civilians, severing their heads, putting said heads on pikes and then photographing them before they post them on the internet? Not to mention all of the other atrocities that they are committing.

American soldiers were just about crucified by the U.S. media for taking a leak on the body of a Taliban fighter that they had just killed. And your proportional response is to possibly sit down with ISIS/ISIL and discuss their opinions?

I am not trying to argue with you about this. I am just trying to figure out where the line is separating a) justification for one's actions due to "their truth" and b) "Thank you for showing yourself long enough for us to get a really good fix on your position for the smart bomb."

On another note....

It seems as if the rioters in the St. Louis area may soon be changing venues. Social media is all abuzz with people calling for the rioters to move their nightly activities to white neighborhoods. These were some of the few that could be posted here.




> The rioters should go into white neighborhoods and burn their buildings. why destroy your own environment?â





> go looting the white neighborhoods! go burn their businesses down! don't tear down businesses in our neighborhoods. c'mon manâ





> Smh they tearing up their own neighborhood instead of terrorizing the white neighborhoods..loot,burned down and rob them,not your own


Classy!!!

In accordance with HT's dislike of improper language I am not going to provide links to the news media websites reporting this. But, anyone with more than half of a brain can find it through the use of Google. I did.

TRellis


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## mnn2501

gweny said:


> If some would read the sentiment in this thread :shakes head: it certainly validates why they protest.


And if they would act like responsible adults they would be treated like responsible adults.
If you act like a criminal you'll be treated as one.


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## haypoint

And so goes the circle. Black communities grow. Violence grows with it. Employers are subject to violence and move away. Unemployment grows. Poverty follows. Violence grows. To maintain civility, police enforce laws, protect the victims. People go to prison, resentment grows. From their perspective, there are no opportunities for them, while the White folk out in the suburbs drive BMWs. Getting an education is a sell out, Uncle Tom. Work? Work is for fools. The focus for many Black youth is to start a record label, be a NBA star, run a big time Mafia style drug operation or get a bunch of hoes in your stable. Many don't even know anyone that has held a job or has a Bank account. Party Stores all advertise, "Liquor, Lotto, Check Cashing". What more do you need?
If you put on a pair of gloves and killed someone, then later all your friends said you weren't there and you put on dry latex gloves and show folks that you can't get those same gloves on, then you didn't do it. 
When I worked in a prison, I'd often ask prisoners why they were in prison. "I got caught robbing a store." "I got caught stealing a car." "I got caught selling drugs." Finally, I began to hear what they were saying. The reason they were in prison was not because they robbed, stole or sold drugs. It wasn't because of their actions. It was what the police did, what the courts did. Everything would be fine if the police hadn't caught them. The focus is on the police action.

Please note that my first hand experiences both in living in the Murder Capital and supervising thousands of convicted felons from the Murder Capital may differ sharply with your views and experiences.


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## MO_cows

poppy said:


> Of course they do. They don't want anyone to hold them accountable for breaking the law. You notice they didn't even wait for an investigation before looting. From what I've read, there was an altercation in the cop's car before the shooting started. What was the altercation that started it about? I suspect the young guy (not a kid) didn't like being arrested and decided to resist. Lesson: do not start an altercation with anyone with a gun. Yes, there are lousy cops who often overstep their bounds and often aren't held accountable, but most are just trying to do their job. The FBI is investigating and that should be enough for the looters.


You didn't wait for the investigation to form an opinion, either. "From what I've read, there was an altercation..." And according to eye witnesses who went on camera, the young man had his hands up in the air when he was shot, about as defenseless a posture as is possible. We just don't know yet what happened. Doesn't justify the looting any shape, way or form, just pointing out that everybody is making assumptions in this case because no real information has come out yet. 

Those looters, you really have to wonder about their mental ability. If they truly believe an innocent man was unjustly shot by the police, why do they go out and commit a crime which invites the police to come and shoot them, too??


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## 7thswan

DAVID In Wisconsin said:


> Most animals have better manners so the first part must be true. Why would anyone care about the opinions of a group that is destroying what their peers have worked for? Listen to them? No, lock 'em up. And that is my valid opinion and my truth.


Ya, I told dh dogs evolved some people devolve. That's what happen when they are given excuses, housing,food stamps,welfare for generations...
Was a murder last night, white man murdered by 3 blacks he considered friends.I guess I got a hankering to goes and git me a new TV in the morning,,, won't go in that hood after dark:spinsmiley:


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## haypoint

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ferguson-Missouri.html

That should give you a little background.

Here is some old news, nearly two years ago, that didn't make it to the National News. In all honesty, what is more tragic or more important? 
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/19568205/32-people-murdered-over-15-day-period-in-detroit

But because it was black on black, no one dares to say anything.


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## HDRider

The police chief is black.


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## 7thswan

There have already been death threats on the Chief. The Officer that was involved has a swollen face. I guess that happens all on it's own when a PO has to discharge his weapon.


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## tarbe

Speaking of the Police, why would anyone think it a good idea to have a 94% white Police Department in a city that is 70% black?

Isn't that just kinda asking for trouble??

I believe I heard that the racial make-up of Ferguson has changed over the years, but it seems like it might be wise to try to have a force that the residents might not be quite so quick to distrust?

It shouldn't matter, but it does. Ignoring reality usually makes matters worse.


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## haypoint

tarbe said:


> Speaking of the Police, why would anyone think it a good idea to have a 94% white Police Department in a city that is 70% black?
> 
> Isn't that just kinda asking for trouble??
> 
> I believe I heard that the racial make-up of Ferguson has changed over the years, but it seems like it might be wise to try to have a force that the residents might not be quite so quick to distrust?
> 
> It shouldn't matter, but it does. Ignoring reality usually makes matters worse.


That is a very good question and you'll be happy to know it has been asked and answered by the Chief of Police. 
No Blacks want to be police in that town. He said he'd be all over any Black that wanted to be an officer in this town. He claims that Blacks just aren't interested. I ran across the news article when looking for crime statistics. You can google it.


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## greg273

gweny said:


> If some would read the sentiment in this thread :shakes head: it certainly validates why they protest.


 'Protesting' is one thing,however vandalism, rioting and looting is another. You don't need to break the law to have a voice. Its stupid. Very, very stupid and sad. 
I know the Ferguson neighborhood well. 
If you don't want to get shot by the cops, then don't get into a physical confrontation with them. Black, white, red, yellow, doesn't matter, it is not a wise move to get into a fight with a man that has a gun, a badge, and the legal authority to shoot you should he feel threatened. 
People want to complain about being 'profiled' by the cops, then maybe they should stop their compatriots from committing so many crimes. That would go a long way towards stopping that. When the population of a city is 60% black, and the blacks are committing 95% of the crimes, that is no ones fault but their own. It is certainly not the police forces fault. I am sick of the 'victim' mentality.


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## haypoint

Sorry for the long posting. But it was on Facebook and I wasn't able to just post a link. So, here goes:
Lou Holtz
The Democrats are right, there are two Americas. The America that works, and the America that doesn&#8217;t. The America that contributes, and the America that doesn&#8217;t. It&#8217;s not the haves and the have nots, it&#8217;s the dos and the don'ts. Some people do their duty as Americans, obey the law, support themselves, contribute to society, and others don't. That&#8217;s the divide in America . 
It&#8217;s not about income inequality, it&#8217;s about civic irresponsibility. It&#8217;s about a political party that preaches hatred, greed and victimization in order to win elective office. It&#8217;s about a political party that loves power more than it loves its country. 
That&#8217;s not invective, that&#8217;s truth, and it&#8217;s about time someone said it.
The politics of envy was on proud display a couple weeks ago when President Obama pledged the rest of his term to fighting &#8220;income inequality.&#8221; He noted that some people make more than other people, that some people have higher incomes than others, and he says that&#8217;s not just. That is the rationale of thievery.
The other guy has it, you want it, Obama will take it for you. Vote Democrat. That is the philosophy that produced Detroit . 
It is the electoral philosophy that is destroying America. It conceals a fundamental deviation from American values and common sense because it ends up not benefiting the people who support it, but a betrayal. 
The Democrats have not empowered their followers, they have enslaved them in a culture of dependence and entitlement, of victim-hood and anger instead of ability and hope. The president&#8217;s premise &#8211; that you reduce income inequality by debasing the successful&#8211;seeks to deny the successful the consequences of their choices and spare the unsuccessful the consequences of their choices. Because, by and large, income variations in society is a result of different choices leading to different consequences. Those who choose wisely and responsibly have a far greater likelihood of success, while those who choose foolishly and irresponsibly have a far greater likelihood of failure. Success and failure usually manifest themselves in personal and family income. You choose to drop out of high school or to skip college &#8211; and you are apt to have a different outcome than someone who gets a diploma and pushes on with purposeful education. You have your children out of wedlock and life is apt to take one course; you have them within a marriage and life is apt to take another course. Most often in life our destination is determined by the course we take. 
My doctor, for example, makes far more than I do. There is significant income inequality between us. Our lives have had an inequality of outcome, but, our lives also have had an in equality of effort. While my doctor went to college and then devoted his young adulthood to medical school and residency, I got a job in a restaurant. He made a choice, I made a choice, and our choices led us to different outcomes. His outcome pays a lot better than mine. Does that mean he cheated and Barack Obama needs to take away his wealth? No, it means we are both free men in a free society where free choices lead to different outcomes. 
It is not inequality Barack Obama intends to take away, it is freedom. The freedom to succeed, and the freedom to fail. There is no true option for success if there is no true option for failure. The pursuit of happiness means a whole lot less when you face the punitive hand of government if your pursuit brings you more happiness than the other guy. Even if the other guy sat on his grits and did nothing. Even if the other guy made a lifetime&#8217;s worth of asinine and short sighted decisions.
Barack Obama and the Democrats preach equality of outcome as a right, while completely ignoring inequality of effort.
The simple Law of the Harvest &#8211; as ye sow, so shall ye reap &#8211; is sometimes applied as, &#8220;The harder you work, the more you get." 
Obama would turn that upside down. Those who achieve are to be punished as enemies of society and those who fail are to be rewarded as wards of society. Entitlement will replace effort as the key to upward mobility in American society if Barack Obama gets his way. He seeks a lowest common denominator society in which the government besieges the successful and productive to foster equality through mediocrity. He and his party speak of two Americas, and their grip on power is based on using the votes of one to sap the productivity of the other. America is not divided by the differences in our outcomes, it is divided by the differences in our efforts.
It is a false philosophy to say one man&#8217;s success comes about unavoidably as the result of another man&#8217;s victimization.
What Obama offered was not a solution, but a separatism. He fomented division and strife, pitted one set of Americans against another for his own political benefit. That&#8217;s what socialists offer. Marxist class warfare wrapped up with a bow. Two Americas, coming closer each day to proving the truth to Lincoln &#8217;s maxim that a house divided against itself cannot stand. 
"Life is ten percent what happens to you and ninety percent how you respond to it." 
Lou Holtz
Leo "Lou" Holtz (born January 6, 1937) is a retired American football coach, and active sportscaster, author, and motivational speaker.


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## rambotex

Haypoint, thanks for sharing that. It was great


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## greg273

haypoint said:


> Sorry for the long posting. But it was on Facebook and I wasn't able to just post a link. So, here goes:
> Lou Holtz
> The Democrats are right, there are two Americas. The America that works, and the America that doesnât.


 Your long-winded, divisive, cut and paste anti-Obama rant has NOTHING to do with what happened in Ferguson. The problems of north St. Louis have been around long before Obama was even born. 
To wit....
The wealthy shipped all the jobs off to China, and you wonder why there is so much poverty in this country. Sure, blame the Democrats, not the filthy weasels that sell out their countrymen so they can make a few extra bucks by selling out the American worker. Productivity and corporate profits are through the roof, yet wages have remained flat. And you wonder why there is so much poverty... You'd have us believe that laziness is the only problem in this country, and greed is good. Hogwash Haypoint!


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## HDRider

Some of these post belong in the Stupid thread.


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## BadFordRanger

gweny said:


> No, revolt will start when the poorest people packed into the worst conditions have had enough.


And it is getting pretty danged close to that time too. But it won't be any riots that get started when TSHTF. It's going to be warfare! 

Godspeed

Ranger


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## mmoetc

Today, CEOs, who have seen wage increases of 1000%, are willing to close a factory and move to China over a single percent in operating costs. Our manufacturing base is eroded. Stamping presses sold as scrap and floated to China. Ever larger segments of society are perpetually unemployed and the Middle Class, facing higher commodity prices and shrinking wages, have become the working poor, living paycheck to paycheck. Who among them will fight for the American Dream? All while the very rich shelter their ever increasing profits in off shore accounts.

The above is what Haypoint posted in the Stupid thread. How dare he address things like CEO pay and lack of opportunity. Will the real Haypoint please stand up.


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## 7thswan

greg273 said:


> Your long-winded, divisive, cut and paste anti-Obama rant has NOTHING to do with what happened in Ferguson. The problems of north St. Louis have been around long before Obama was even born.
> To wit....
> The wealthy shipped all the jobs off to China, and you wonder why there is so much poverty in this country. Sure, blame the Democrats, not the filthy weasels that sell out their countrymen so they can make a few extra bucks by selling out the American worker. Productivity and corporate profits are through the roof, yet wages have remained flat. And you wonder why there is so much poverty... You'd have us believe that laziness is the only problem in this country, and greed is good. Hogwash Haypoint!


Yup, Unions forced buisness to take their jobs elsewhere and dems made promises they can't keep-Look at Detroit. Now people expect to fix it-sure ,they'll still fall for the promises of the dems and it will stay the biggest hole above ground.


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## JJ Grandits

Haypoint, great post. Leo holtz nailed it.

To all you bleeding heart liberals, that song you sing is getting so old. You complain about corporations shipping jobs to China, but it was one of you're heroes, Bill Clinton who violated US law and gave them most favorable trade status. He shipped the jobs and likewise so did his supporters. He did the same thing with NAFTA. Your philosophy has done far more to destroy the middle class then all the greedy corporate CEO's you constantly gripe about combined.

Speaking of those greedy CEO's here is a lesson for you. See Im a working guy. I pay my own way. My retirement is pretty humble and it is invested in the stock market. That means that I own part of those great big evil corporations. If you have a 401K you probably own part of those evil corporations too. I am hoping that the money I work hard for, that I put aside, and invest in those evil corporations will show a profit so I can support myself in my later years. The job of the CEO is to make sure that happens. His job is not to support your twisted political viewpoint. I realize that none of you have a 401K or any other investments in those evil corporations. Afterall, that would make you hypocritical. We all know that your investment for the future is buried in a jar in the backyard.

Secondly, or possibily thirdly, poor people do not revolt. That is a Hollywood myth. None of our founding fathers were poor people. Poor people might have joined them, but it is the wealthy, the businessman, the tradespeople, the middle class who start revolutions. You know, the folks you liberals kepping backing against a wall. The ones you blame for your failures. The ones who pay for your ill concieved plans.The ones who have had it up to here and are getting ready to kick some elitist butt. If the things keep going as they are, and we have a SHTF scenerio, you may be surprized who is going to be held to blame.


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## haypoint

mmoetc said:


> Today, CEOs, who have seen wage increases of 1000%, are willing to close a factory and move to China over a single percent in operating costs. Our manufacturing base is eroded. Stamping presses sold as scrap and floated to China. Ever larger segments of society are perpetually unemployed and the Middle Class, facing higher commodity prices and shrinking wages, have become the working poor, living paycheck to paycheck. Who among them will fight for the American Dream? All while the very rich shelter their ever increasing profits in off shore accounts.
> 
> The above is what Haypoint posted in the Stupid thread. How dare he address things like CEO pay and lack of opportunity. Will the real Haypoint please stand up.


You must have me confused with someone else. You said in an earlier post I was anti-government, but I have gotten in lots of heated discussions supporting government. I have been openly pro-NAID, anti-raw milk sales. I am against big government, but I look at issues closely and study the merits. Far to easy to broad brush from afar.
I believe the media misleads us. I am conservative in most issues. The part you might be confused about is my belief that the top tenth of one percent hold a monopoly on our elected government. 75 years ago, big business miscalculated and the wrong guy got to be president. He went to work breaking up the monopolies. That opens up opportunities for the population to pursue the American Dream. It is time for a similar housecleaning.
But the news has you believing the OWS wasn't about the financial abuses, destroyed retirements and kickbacks. They told you it was about bratty, lazy college kids crying about their student loans. Many believed it.
The people of this country don't want our jobs to leave. We don't want to buy everything from China, but the government we elected did what is best for the CEOs.
CEOs should be paid a lot. It must be hard work. But how do you justify 100 million dollar salaries and 80 million dollar severance packages when the market share of their company drops? The folks that bought shares in those companies as investments end up with nothing when the company pays the CEO the entire year's profit.


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## mmoetc

haypoint said:


> You must have me confused with someone else. You said in an earlier post I was anti-government, but I have gotten in lots of heated discussions supporting government. I have been openly pro-NAID, anti-raw milk sales. I am against big government, but I look at issues closely and study the merits. Far to easy to broad brush from afar.
> I believe the media misleads us. I am conservative in most issues. The part you might be confused about is my belief that the top tenth of one percent hold a monopoly on our elected government. 75 years ago, big business miscalculated and the wrong guy got to be president. He went to work breaking up the monopolies. That opens up opportunities for the population to pursue the American Dream. It is time for a similar housecleaning.
> But the news has you believing the OWS wasn't about the financial abuses, destroyed retirements and kickbacks. They told you it was about bratty, lazy college kids crying about their student loans. Many believed it.
> The people of this country don't want our jobs to leave. We don't want to buy everything from China, but the government we elected did what is best for the CEOs.
> CEOs should be paid a lot. It must be hard work. But how do you justify 100 million dollar salaries and 80 million dollar severance packages when the market share of their company drops? The folks that bought shares in those companies as investments end up with nothing when the company pays the CEO the entire year's profit.


This new populist side of you is refreshing. Lou Holz, a man who made millions coaching football and who resigned from a lifetime contract at Notre Dame unde a cloud of misdeeds seems a poor choice of someone to criticize the president for speaking out against income equality. All I can think is that he must have one heck of a well paid doctor. Is not your criticism of CEO pay and outsourcing jobs to increase profits also a criticism of income inequality in this country? We probably agree quite a lot on this issue. I don't think the president speaking out for change is a bad thing. Maybe we can start by reforming our tax code to reward those who invest in jobs and growth in this country rather than rewarding those who are adept at manipulating computer code to gain minute advantages in monetary markets.


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## TheMartianChick

I haven't been on internet forums much in the past few days, but I've been following this story as it was all over much of the black media . Last night, I finally had a chance to watch the tv coverage (and I watched FOX, CNN and MSNBC in order to get a broad perspective), as opposed to just reading the internet stories. On Fox, I saw firsthand that the police chief was parsing his words so tightly that barely anything of substance came out. MSNBC had the best live coverage as they were receiving a video feed from a RADIO station reporter who was on the run, trying to cover the story without getting hit by rubber bullets or hit with tear gas. 

The majority of the protesters were/are peaceful. For the few who opt to loot or damage personal property, lock them up! The police and government response to this case has been awful.

For those who brought up black on black crime, there is far too much of it. However, there are many initiatives out there to try to stem the tide. They aren't always successful. I worked for one such initiative for a year and it just wasn't for me. This is not about black on black crime. This is about a thin blue line and the fact that people of color are treated differently by many police officers across this country.

I scanned through some of the comments that had been posted here and had a few thoughts of my own to add:

1. I have never heard of a case where there was an officer-involved shooting and the officer was not named/identified to the press. Protection can be provided for him and his family but this is public information that should be easily accessible through a FOIL request.

2. Every witness says that the victim had his hands in the air when he was shot. They also say that the first shot hit him in the back. How was this a justified shooting? Why is it that the police have not contacted/interviewed these verifiable witnesses and yet CNN has?

3. Last night, I watched the video that was streaming in from legitimate news media personnel. I saw people with their hands raised having tear gas thrown at them. I saw tear gas and flash grenades being thrown onto private lawns where people were on their own property by police officers.

4. The media was turned away from the Ferguson area. Why was it that there coverage of the event was restricted? Why were the reporters who continued to cover the story roughed up and arrested? They were forcibly removed from a McDonalds that was outside of the area where the protests were and charged with trespassing. If not for them, we would only have grainy cell phone coverage of the events as they unfolded. Here is a story about what they saw:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/13/huffington-post-reporter-arrested-ferguson_n_5676829.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ashington-post-reporter-arrested-in-ferguson/

Here's a snippet from the Washington Post story:



> &#8220;That is probably the single point at which I&#8217;ve been more afraid than at any point.&#8221; Lowery said after. &#8220;More afraid than the tear gas and rubber bullets, more afraid during the riot police. I know of too many instances where someone who was not resisting arrest was assaulted or killed.&#8221;



5. As much as I wish that Attorney Ben Crump was not involved in this case, poor families will often approach high-profile attorneys to represent them because they will often do so for free because the case is expected to garner a lot of press. Despite that fact, I do feel that he is raising some valid questions like: How many bullets was Michael Brown hit with? What was the nature of the confrontation between Michael Brown and the police officer? Why was Brown confronted? Why did the police investigation only include police interviews and not witness statements? 

6. There is a great deal of concern about this investigation because there is a fear of collusion between the various levels of local law enforcement.

7. Last night's images were frightening. If you had no idea as to what was going on, you would have thought that you were watching some sort of clash in the Middle East. Why was so much force brought to bear when the police supposedly wanted to calm the situation?

Photos That Everyone Should See

These are just a few things that are on my mind this morning as I ponder this heavily militarized response to mostly peaceful protests. I just heard that the protest group, Anonymous claims to have the name of the police officer involved in the shooting. While I believe that the public has the right to know, I do't like the fact that Anonymous is involved. I'm generally the person to downplay the fact that something is likely to spiral out of control...This time, I'm not so sure. People of color are tired of being police targets and most of us have similar stories of police misconduct in our families. (I know that I posted a personal one here, a couple of years ago.) 

In my area of Central NY, the story of Jonny Gammage resonates heavily. Gammage was the cousin of NFL player Ray Seals (who was raised here). Gammage died from compression in Pennsylvania after being pulled over for driving a fancy car. The car belonged to his famous cousin. We've never forgotten his story or the tragic loss of life. Cops always seem to get away with these things.


----------



## gweny

haypoint said:


> Sorry for the long posting. But it was on Facebook and I wasn't able to just post a link. So, here goes:
> Lou Holtz
> The Democrats are right, there are two Americas. The America that works, and the America that doesnât. The America that contributes, and the America that doesnât. Itâs not the haves and the have nots, itâs the dos and the don'ts. Some people do their duty as Americans, obey the law, support themselves, contribute to society, and others don't. Thatâs the divide in America .
> Itâs not about income inequality, itâs about civic irresponsibility. Itâs about a political party that preaches hatred, greed and victimization in order to win elective office. Itâs about a political party that loves power more than it loves its country.
> Thatâs not invective, thatâs truth, and itâs about time someone said it.
> The politics of envy was on proud display a couple weeks ago when President Obama pledged the rest of his term to fighting âincome inequality.â He noted that some people make more than other people, that some people have higher incomes than others, and he says thatâs not just. That is the rationale of thievery.
> The other guy has it, you want it, Obama will take it for you. Vote Democrat. That is the philosophy that produced Detroit .
> It is the electoral philosophy that is destroying America. It conceals a fundamental deviation from American values and common sense because it ends up not benefiting the people who support it, but a betrayal.
> The Democrats have not empowered their followers, they have enslaved them in a culture of dependence and entitlement, of victim-hood and anger instead of ability and hope. The presidentâs premise â that you reduce income inequality by debasing the successfulâseeks to deny the successful the consequences of their choices and spare the unsuccessful the consequences of their choices. Because, by and large, income variations in society is a result of different choices leading to different consequences. Those who choose wisely and responsibly have a far greater likelihood of success, while those who choose foolishly and irresponsibly have a far greater likelihood of failure. Success and failure usually manifest themselves in personal and family income. You choose to drop out of high school or to skip college â and you are apt to have a different outcome than someone who gets a diploma and pushes on with purposeful education. You have your children out of wedlock and life is apt to take one course; you have them within a marriage and life is apt to take another course. Most often in life our destination is determined by the course we take.
> My doctor, for example, makes far more than I do. There is significant income inequality between us. Our lives have had an inequality of outcome, but, our lives also have had an in equality of effort. While my doctor went to college and then devoted his young adulthood to medical school and residency, I got a job in a restaurant. He made a choice, I made a choice, and our choices led us to different outcomes. His outcome pays a lot better than mine. Does that mean he cheated and Barack Obama needs to take away his wealth? No, it means we are both free men in a free society where free choices lead to different outcomes.
> It is not inequality Barack Obama intends to take away, it is freedom. The freedom to succeed, and the freedom to fail. There is no true option for success if there is no true option for failure. The pursuit of happiness means a whole lot less when you face the punitive hand of government if your pursuit brings you more happiness than the other guy. Even if the other guy sat on his grits and did nothing. Even if the other guy made a lifetimeâs worth of asinine and short sighted decisions.
> Barack Obama and the Democrats preach equality of outcome as a right, while completely ignoring inequality of effort.
> The simple Law of the Harvest â as ye sow, so shall ye reap â is sometimes applied as, âThe harder you work, the more you get."
> Obama would turn that upside down. Those who achieve are to be punished as enemies of society and those who fail are to be rewarded as wards of society. Entitlement will replace effort as the key to upward mobility in American society if Barack Obama gets his way. He seeks a lowest common denominator society in which the government besieges the successful and productive to foster equality through mediocrity. He and his party speak of two Americas, and their grip on power is based on using the votes of one to sap the productivity of the other. America is not divided by the differences in our outcomes, it is divided by the differences in our efforts.
> It is a false philosophy to say one manâs success comes about unavoidably as the result of another manâs victimization.
> What Obama offered was not a solution, but a separatism. He fomented division and strife, pitted one set of Americans against another for his own political benefit. Thatâs what socialists offer. Marxist class warfare wrapped up with a bow. Two Americas, coming closer each day to proving the truth to Lincoln âs maxim that a house divided against itself cannot stand.
> "Life is ten percent what happens to you and ninety percent how you respond to it."
> Lou Holtz
> Leo "Lou" Holtz (born January 6, 1937) is a retired American football coach, and active sportscaster, author, and motivational speaker.


I agree with you 100%! But look who our president is! They are clearly winning. If we can't understand them how can we ever hope to change their vote?


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## MoonRiver

tarbe said:


> Speaking of the Police, why would anyone think it a good idea to have a 94% white Police Department in a city that is 70% black?
> 
> Isn't that just kinda asking for trouble??
> 
> I believe I heard that the racial make-up of Ferguson has changed over the years, but it seems like it might be wise to try to have a force that the residents might not be quite so quick to distrust?
> 
> It shouldn't matter, but it does. Ignoring reality usually makes matters worse.


So are you suggesting racial quotas?


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## TheMartianChick

MoonRiver said:


> So are you suggesting racial quotas?


I know that your question wasn't directed at me, but whenever there is a great ethnic disparity between the policing force and the citizenry that it serves, there is a problem. Sometimes it is as simple as a lack of recruitment activity to target that population. In other areas, it can be a carryover from the old days when people of color weren't allowed to become cops due to prejudice. There is something wrong in Ferguson, but I'm not familiar with the area to be able to say what it is or how it should be addressed.

My area actively recruits Somali's and Bosnians for the police force. We are a hub for immigrants from those backgrounds and it is helpful to have someone familiar with the culture and language when there is a police call involving their communities.


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## 7thswan

I also listened to quite a bit of the witnesses, sounds bad what the cop might have done.'Don't know it it's true, but I've seen tweets that the Black Panthers, Al Sharpton are there, even some communist groups. This might be the start of those riots that everyone has said Obama wants.
MartianChick, FOIL is no big deal anymore-just ask those of us that try to look into Obama's background-they will just hand you pages that are blacked out or "misssing".


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## SteveD(TX)

This guy "tells it like it is". If you don't like links, just google Johnathan Gentry - it's on his Facebook page and all over the net. 

http://www.tpnn.com/2014/08/13/must...ters-and-looters-in-ferguson-just-went-viral/


----------



## 7thswan

greg273 said:


> Your long-winded, divisive, cut and paste anti-Obama rant has NOTHING to do with what happened in Ferguson. The problems of north St. Louis have been around long before Obama was even born.
> To wit....
> The wealthy shipped all the jobs off to China, and you wonder why there is so much poverty in this country. Sure, blame the Democrats, not the filthy weasels that sell out their countrymen so they can make a few extra bucks by selling out the American worker. Productivity and corporate profits are through the roof, yet wages have remained flat. And you wonder why there is so much poverty... You'd have us believe that laziness is the only problem in this country, and greed is good. Hogwash Haypoint!


I did just read, rioters are upset because Obama hasn't "helped" them like he said he would. Whatever that "hope and change" was, I've never gotten an awnser from anyone what "change" was supposed to be.


----------



## TheMartianChick

7thswan said:


> I did just read, rioters are upset because Obama hasn't "helped" them like he said he would. Whatever that "hope and change" was, I've never gotten an awnser from anyone what "change" was supposed to be.


One of the changes that many African American voters wanted to see was that police brutality and disparate police treatment along ethnic lines would go away. We had hoped that there'd be more discourse and better policies to prevent those types of things at the Federal level.


----------



## Glade Runner

I've heard some of the so-called witnesses. Obviously coached and rehearsed and speaking words they clearly never ever used before and probably have no clue as to their actual meaning. What a sham. Their testimony is not worth a bucket of warm spit.


----------



## kasilofhome

Drop the special "type" of American and realise that the important part is the word American. Those that live to be known only for a special recognition group separate themselves. 

Race only matters to those who are racist.


----------



## tarbe

MoonRiver said:


> So are you suggesting racial quotas?


No, I am not.


----------



## rambotex

You know what, here's a simple solution. Regardless of your Race, Religion, or Color; if you don't like what's going on in your community, MOVE. That goes for the White People too.


----------



## where I want to

I don't know the right and wrong of it but it could be a matter of timing. You might throw your hands in the air when the person with the gun has already committed to shooting. Too little, too late. 
But the person doing the shooting may have started the whole thing and is in the wrong. The same can be said for the person who was shot. We don't know.
But was is clear is that deciding the cop is evil because of race is just as wrong as a cop deciding the person shot is evil because of race. As far as I can tell, the protest are not demanding a thorough and transparent and fair investigation. They have already decided guilt and have proceded to the demanding of justice, by which they mean conviction of the cop. 
Maybe TPTB are simply believing the rhetoric from the mobs and have no choice but to protect the cop from a lynch mob. Because we all know that if anything is even hinted to the defense of the cop, it will cause a protest and violence because the decision has already been made based on race and is not subject to change.


----------



## 7thswan

Drove me nuts-Whats the deal with saying "whenever" instead of "when" is proper.


----------



## 7thswan

TheMartianChick said:


> One of the changes that many African American voters wanted to see was that police brutality and disparate police treatment along ethnic lines would go away. We had hoped that there'd be more discourse and better policies to prevent those types of things at the Federal level.


Ok. Did he say that? Remember up is down and down is up with O. Now we have Goverment brutality especially to the Middle class, and ethnics have been prompted and prodded by O. But we knew this would happen back in 2007, when some of recognized who he is. Tell me MC, If Blacks found out he does not have one speck of Black in him, what would they think then?


----------



## Tricky Grama

haypoint said:


> A few weeks ago, in Detroit, a Black teenager stepped backwards into the street and was hit by a vehicle. When the white driver stopped to check on the boy, a group of Black bystanders attacked the man. This drew a crowd of fifty people. The man was so badly beaten he remained in a coma for two weeks. Police were unable to get any witness statements. No one saw anything. Nearby surveillance cameras were used to convict three men, but the evidence was so weak that they were able to cop a plea for a year in jail.
> Black on Black crime is so common it is barely news anymore. Black on White crime is difficult to prosecute without witnesses. But when it is perceived a White person committed a crime against a Black person, riots ensue. I predict that in St. Louis, all the Black witnesses will testify that the Black youth that was shot and killed was doing nothing at all and the Policeman just shot him totally without cause. The cell phone videos that show differently will vanish. The Police Officer will go to prison.
> Yes, I know history. We have been taught of racial injustices in this nation's past. The nation feels the guilt. Sometimes it seems as if the harder this country tries to insure equality, reduce poverty, increase opportunity, the greater the lawlessness and immorality.
> 
> gweny, smashing the windows out of a store and stealing a TV because of an electrical blackout, because of a hurricane, because your team won a football game, or because you heard a cop shot a kid, isn't the Boston Tea Party.


I have another wifi minute for-Post of the Day Award!


----------



## Tricky Grama

gweny said:


> Oh an excuse! Kinda like the nazis night of broken windows?


Are you nuts? Are you saying the Boston Tea Party is like the Nazis kidnapping & murdering Jews?!


----------



## doingitmyself

AC-130A Spectre, game over... Kind of "spooky" .


----------



## Tricky Grama

greg273 said:


> 'Protesting' is one thing,however vandalism, rioting and looting is another. You don't need to break the law to have a voice. Its stupid. Very, very stupid and sad.
> I know the Ferguson neighborhood well.
> If you don't want to get shot by the cops, then don't get into a physical confrontation with them. Black, white, red, yellow, doesn't matter, it is not a wise move to get into a fight with a man that has a gun, a badge, and the legal authority to shoot you should he feel threatened.
> People want to complain about being 'profiled' by the cops, then maybe they should stop their compatriots from committing so many crimes. That would go a long way towards stopping that. When the population of a city is 60% black, and the blacks are committing 95% of the crimes, that is no ones fault but their own. It is certainly not the police forces fault. I am sick of the 'victim' mentality.


Post of the Day Award!


----------



## MO_cows

I had to applaud my tv screen last night. 

There is a candlelight vigil to be held for Michael Brown in Kansas City. I don't think any of the organizers ever met the man, and furthermore it is going to be held on the Country Club Plaza, where there have been ongoing problems with unruly young people, mostly black, and curfews established. So, you have to wonder why hold a vigil for someone you didn't even know they existed until they were killed, and why hold it in the one place in Kansas City that has a curfew?????

One of our local community activists who has been working against crime and violence in Kansas City neighborhoods was interviewed and basically said, why hold a public vigil for this young man we don't know, but continue to ignore the problems right in our own back yard? 

Now there is a man with good sense. If I can find his organization, I might have to send some money!


----------



## doingitmyself

A big difference between peaceful protesting and rioting in the streets of a city. Both should be dealt with differently, protesters freedom of speech should be protected . Rioters should be shut down with the firmest means available to send a graphic and decisive message to the rest of the hood.

No negotiation, if you act like an animal you should be dealt with as an animal..... 

If you demonstrate peacefully and in an orderly fashion you should feel safe and supported in you freedom of speech....

Of course if you smash windows and steal TV's and such you should shortly be hearing the thunderous sound of "spooky" addressing your situation.


----------



## JJ Grandits

It is not Black against White. That is what the powers that be want. We better understand it is us, collectively, against Them.


----------



## greg273

JJ Grandits said:


> It is not Black against White. That is what the powers that be want. We better understand it is us, collectively, against Them.


 I don't know where you're at, but in the city of St. Louis at this moment its the thugs vs. the rest of the peaceful, law abiding citizens. Now sometimes the thugs are rouge cops, but more often than not in St. Louis and the surrounding areas they are lawless black folk. That isn't a racist statement, this is a matter of observation. 
So anyway, latest rumor from my friend in the city is that the Ferguson police dept caught fire this afternoon. I don't know who did it, but I was only half-joking when I asked if it was the cops playing with their smoke bombs. 
Gonna be another interesting night in the city.


----------



## greg273

And Al Sharpton needs to go back to wherever he came from. The guy is a completely useless self-aggrandizing agitator. He was calling for the police officers name to be released to the public... after there was numerous death threats made against whomever that was.


----------



## edcopp

greg273 said:


> And Al Sharpton needs to go back to wherever he came from. The guy is a completely useless self-aggrandizing agitator. He was calling for the police officers name to be released to the public... after there was numerous death threats made against whomever that was.


The name of the police officer involved is PUBLIC RECORD. What is wrong with the public being able to see the recore that they own. Sounds like someone is afraid of a little "Sunshine".


----------



## edcopp

rambotex said:


> You know what, here's a simple solution. Regardless of your Race, Religion, or Color; if you don't like what's going on in your community, MOVE. That goes for the White People too.


Any suggestions as to where, and at who's expense.?


----------



## wally

edcopp said:


> Any suggestions as to where, and at who's expense.?


You go anywhere you and your family want to go and yes you pay for it. its called being a adult and you taking care of your family


----------



## poppy

Blacks only hurt themselves when they respond like this. Can any of you honestly say you would invest in opening a business in black neighborhoods after seeing those looted businesses on the news? Then blacks whine about lack of economic activity in their neighborhoods. It makes no sense.


----------



## greg273

edcopp said:


> The name of the police officer involved is PUBLIC RECORD. What is wrong with the public being able to see the recore that they own. Sounds like someone is afraid of a little "Sunshine".


 Let them look it up then. Why make it easier to make the officer a target? His name will come out eventually, but I don't know if you can appreciate what a powder keg this city is right now. 
Has the officer been charged with a crime? Convicted? Is it common to release the name of suspects when there is a lynch mob ready to kill them??


----------



## haypoint

wally said:


> You go anywhere you and your family want to go and yes you pay for it. its called being a adult and you taking care of your family


You are correct. They even have a name for doing that, it is called "white flight" That is why many of the suburbs were formed.

Families and businesses, fed up with criminal activity, move away from the high crime areas.
That reduces jobs and increases poverty, giving an excuse for the violence. and the circle keeps going, round and round.

As an example, the core of Detroit is rebounding. Violence in the heart of Detroit is going down. All apartments and high rises are full.
Out in the suburbs, there is little sign of a Recession.

But that wide band between the core and the 'berbs, 500,000 people have left. Mostly working class folks seeking jobs. Tens of thousands of homes abandoned. All have been stripped of their plumbing and electrical. Many badly burned. 
Those that remain, hopeless, believe they are helpless, feel they were put into this situation by the White people that stayed employed in the 'berbs by taking all the jobs from the city. 
Education and hard work turns you white and you move away. So education is shunned. Going to prison is viewed, in the Black family, the same way going into the Army is viewed in other families. Just something every young man experiences.


----------



## haypoint

poppy said:


> Blacks only hurt themselves when they respond like this. Can any of you honestly say you would invest in opening a business in black neighborhoods after seeing those looted businesses on the news? Then blacks whine about lack of economic activity in their neighborhoods. It makes no sense.


Is there any wonder why most inter city party stores and gas stations are owned by ruthless Arabs that sit behind bullet proof glass?

A Whole Foods Store, or similar upscale healthy food store, wanted to put a store in a mostly black inter-city location in Seattle. Community leaders put a stop to it because it would make the area more desirable to working white people, drive up housing values and splinter their community.
The same attitude was going on in the 1960s when the mostly white hippies moved into intercity apartments. Hippies became victims of inter city crime.


----------



## where I want to

Better the devil we know than the devil we don't. For all the complaints, familiar is comfortable.


----------



## JJ Grandits

The point I was making that racial division causes unrest, and unrest encourages government control. Don't get me wrong, the looter and arsonists are criminals but the police have put gasoline on a fire too. I really don't feel like going through the 60's again. Figured something must have been learned from that. We shouldn't fall into the same trap. All Im seeing is emotion and escalation.


----------



## greg273

JJ Grandits said:


> The point I was making that racial division causes unrest, and unrest encourages government control. Don't get me wrong, the looter and arsonists are criminals but the police have put gasoline on a fire too. I really don't feel like going through the 60's again. Figured something must have been learned from that. We shouldn't fall into the same trap. All Im seeing is emotion and escalation.


 The governor spoke to that exact concern this afternoon, which is why the local cops have been kicked out of the tactical decision-making process.


----------



## MO_cows

edcopp said:


> The name of the police officer involved is PUBLIC RECORD. What is wrong with the public being able to see the recore that they own. Sounds like someone is afraid of a little "Sunshine".


In the "officer involved" shootings I have seen in the news recently, the name of the officer hasn't been released until the investigation gets so far along.

Recently there was a very unfortunate incident in KC where an officer ended up shooting and killing a firefighter who was celebrating his marriage! No names were released for days. BTW, it turned out the firefighter was out of control drunk and beating the officer, he had to shoot him in self defense and was cleared. But nobody was named at first. 

Due to the violence there is reason in this case not to release his name, some fool would try to exact revenge and the situation could be inflamed even further. The press wants the name, bad, so they can put the officer's life under a microscope and present it to the public.


----------



## greg273

Yep and it was just announced the police are going to release the name to the media. Not a good move at this point.


----------



## MoonRiver

greg273 said:


> Yep and it was just announced the police are going to release the name to the media. Not a good move at this point.


Only 2 reasons I can think of for people demanding his name be released.


So they can check and see if he is white
So they can check and see if he has any history that can be construed as anti-African American


----------



## HDRider

MoonRiver said:


> Only 2 reasons I can think of for people demanding his name be released.
> 
> 
> So they can check and see if he is white
> So they can check and see if he has any history that can be construed as anti-African American


3. So they can hang him.


----------



## HDRider

MoonRiver said:


> Only 2 reasons I can think of for people demanding his name be released.
> 
> 
> So they can check and see if he is white
> So they can check and see if he has any history that can be construed as anti-African American


4. So they can give him a spot on MSNBC.


----------



## MoonRiver

Was Mike Brown the robbery suspect the cop was looking for?

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...-michael-brown-robbing-store-before-shooting/


----------



## where I want to

And here is exactly the problem with trying someone, either Brown or the police, in the media. To reach any kind of decision at speed, most of the story needs to be filled in with assumptions based on the bias of the person deciding and why we have courts in the first place.

The media, the rioters, Al Sharpton, evidently our President, etc ought to simply keep their bloody mouths shut until there has been enough time and effort in getting facts before launching into accusations.

Little, if anything, is as black and white as partisans would have it. Sainthood is not coveyed to a person because he is black or the police because they have a uniform.


----------



## TRellis

CNN is really starting to hammer a story on air and on the website concerning the racial inequities within Ferguson, Mo.



> âTwo-thirds of Ferguson's population is black, and yet the mayor is white, and so are five of the six city council members.
> 
> 
> The police chief is also white. There are only three African-Americans on the 53-person police force."



http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/14/justice/ferguson-missouri-police-community/index.html?hpt=hp_t1


Sounds familiar, but inversely soâ¦


U.S. demographics as of 2013 from the U.S. Census bureau:


White alone, percent, 2013 (a) 77.7%

Black or African American alone, percent, 2013 (a) 13.2%

American Indian and Alaska Native alone, percent, 2013 (a) 1.2%

Asian alone, percent, 2013 (a) 5.3%

Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone, percent, 2013 (a) 0.2%

Two or More Races, percent, 2013 2.4%

Hispanic or Latino, percent, 2013 (b) 17.1%

White alone, not Hispanic or Latino, percent, 2013 62.6%


http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

And yet the POTUS, while being of mixed race, seems to identify solely with his black heritage and the U.S. Attorney General is black. This racial âinequityâ (using CNN standards) has not brought about protests and rioting by whites, at least not to the standards set in Ferguson. 

Just sayingâ¦

The media is now reporting that Brown may have stolen Swisher Sweets Blunts from a store which may have precipitated this entire altercation. Are these not the same small cigars that are emptied of their tobacco and then stuffed with pot? There goes his image!

TRellis


----------



## poppy

This is interesting. Cops were looking for a robbery suspect when the officer stopped Brown. Was Brown the robber? We don't know yet and everyone should wait and see. All is not as it seems in the press quite often. When someone is shot by the cops, his family always gets on tv telling what a great person he was. This guy was described by his family as a high school graduate going to college to be a doctor. Maybe so but you'd think a person like that wouldn't start an altercation with the cop in his car and then try to flee. Just sayin'.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...-michael-brown-robbing-store-before-shooting/


----------



## HDRider

poppy said:


> This is interesting. Cops were looking for a robbery suspect when the officer stopped Brown. Was Brown the robber? We don't know yet and everyone should wait and see. All is not as it seems in the press quite often. When someone is shot by the cops, his family always gets on tv telling what a great person he was. This guy was described by his family as a high school graduate going to college to be a doctor. Maybe so but you'd think a person like that wouldn't start an altercation with the cop in his car and then try to flee. Just sayin'.
> 
> http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...-michael-brown-robbing-store-before-shooting/


They have confirm Brown as the robber.

Now the question is why an officer decided to use deadly force to stop a cigar thief.


----------



## where I want to

HDRider said:


> They have confirm Brown as the robber.
> 
> Now the question is why an officer decided to use deadly force to stop a cigar thief.


Who assaulted a the store clerk half his size? I'm afraid that the deceased's companion just convinced me that the policeman was most likely trying to stop a man who just committed a felony assault on a policeman- himself. This man said that the policeman tried to drag the deceased into the police car by his neck. Without handcuffs and with his unrestrained friend standing there? Even TV cops don't do that.

So the issue becomes at what point is it reasonable to use a gun to stop a person who has clearly committed a serious and violent crime. How are such criminals held accountable if they simply refuse to be restrained?


----------



## poppy

HDRider said:


> They have confirm Brown as the robber.
> 
> Now the question is why an officer decided to use deadly force to stop a cigar thief.


I have no idea. I haven't seen the report though. What was in the cop's mind at the time? Was there mention of a gun during the theft or did the cop have reason to believe he might be armed? Guns on criminals are common in that area and once the altercation started I would assume the cop saw the guy as a possible threat. At that point, any movement by the suspect that the cop saw threatening was likely to draw fire. Now, if the cop knew he just grabbed a few cigars and bolted out the door and shot him in the back for trying to run away, the cop is and should be in big trouble. I'm hoping to see a headline that Sharpton was shot.


----------



## poppy

where I want to said:


> Who assaulted a the store clerk half his size? I'm afraid that the deceased's companion just convinced me that the policeman was most likely trying to stop a man who just committed a felony assault on a policeman- himself. This man said that the policeman tried to drag the deceased into the police car by his neck. Without handcuffs and with his unrestrained friend standing there? Even TV cops don't do that.
> 
> So the issue becomes at what point is it reasonable to use a gun to stop a person who has clearly committed a serious and violent crime. How are such criminals held accountable if they simply refuse to be restrained?


Yes, that story doesn't seem plausible in the least. The cop would have handcuffed him first and maybe was trying to when the altercation started. Most times a cop with 2 suspects will try to keep things under control until backup arrives.


----------



## MoonRiver

So the media speculated about every aspect of this case - with the exception that Big Mike had possibly committed a robbery. They now admit they had heard the rumors, but I guess it would have ruined their story.


----------



## 7thswan

I've seen the images from the robbery tape, Brown is HUGE. He even went back in the store to intimidate the owner because he didn't like the way he was "looking " at him.


----------



## where I want to

Now will fall the media silence. In a few days it will be a small story. The rioters have forced the government to accommodate themsso feel a bit more powerful. 

The media will do no post mortem on how their stories contributed to the violence nor will they interview Sharpton or others about the robbery. The deceased will continue to be the alleged criminal who did the alleged robbery and carried out an alleged assault on the clerk, who will be convinced to keep his mouth shut, as if it was all his fault. However the policeman will be always be the shooter of the unarmed man who was just heading off to college and had a bright future.
Those who are invested in the original story will either dismiss or minimalize the robbery and assault issue. 
There will be no rational discussion of violence or anything else meaningful because there might be calls of racism against the questioners.


----------



## 7thswan

"Like it or not, he's from Kenya. He's a Mau Mau." - Hashim Nzinga, New Black Panthers 
from the protest.


----------



## MO_cows

This new information makes me feel for his mother!

It made me sad when she sobbed in front of the cameras, saying how hard she worked to get him thru high school and he was supposed to start college this week. The poor woman thought she "won" by getting her son to go to college. Then he was killed, and she suffered that shock and loss. Now, she finds out he robbed the local store by intimidation. What an emotional roller coaster! So SHE's the one who needs a candlelight vigil in her honor, my heart goes out to her. Like the old country song, "Momma Tried".


----------



## HDRider

MO_cows said:


> This new information makes me feel for his mother!
> 
> It made me sad when she sobbed in front of the cameras, saying how hard she worked to get him thru high school and he was supposed to start college this week. The poor woman thought she "won" by getting her son to go to college. Then he was killed, and she suffered that shock and loss. Now, she finds out he robbed the local store by intimidation. What an emotional roller coaster! So SHE's the one who needs a candlelight vigil in her honor, my heart goes out to her. Like the old country song, "Momma Tried".


I read this was his "record"

Description: Burglary - 1st Degree { Felony B RSMo: 569.160 }
Date: 11/02/2013 Code: 1401000
OCN: AJ006207 Arresting Agency: ST ANN PD

Description: Armed Criminal Action { Felony Unclassified RSMo: 571.015 }
Date: 11/02/2013 Code: 3101000
OCN: AJ006207 Arresting Agency: ST ANN PD

Description: Assault 1st Degree - Serious Physical Injury { Felony A RSMo: 565.050 }
Date: 11/02/2013 Code: 1301100
OCN: AJ006207 Arresting Agency: ST ANN PD

Description: Armed Criminal Action { Felony Unclassified RSMo: 571.015 }
Date: 11/02/2013 Code: 3101000
OCN: AJ006207 Arresting Agency: ST ANN PD


----------



## Sawmill Jim

poppy said:


> I have no idea. I haven't seen the report though. What was in the cop's mind at the time? Was there mention of a gun during the theft or did the cop have reason to believe he might be armed? Guns on criminals are common in that area and once the altercation started I would assume the cop saw the guy as a possible threat. At that point, any movement by the suspect that the cop saw threatening was likely to draw fire. Now, if the cop knew he just grabbed a few cigars and bolted out the door and shot him in the back for trying to run away, the cop is and should be in big trouble. I'm hoping to see a headline that Sharpton was shot.


Where does the dollar break come into play on theft :hobbyhors Say he grabbed four purses and a hundred grand and ran . Shoot or don't shoot ? Or your wallet ? :icecream:


----------



## Glade Runner

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_52c40b84-ad90-5f9a-973c-70d628d0be04.html

The poor, innocent 18 year old looks a whole lot different in these videos as he commits a felony.


----------



## where I want to

Seems that the policeman did not know that the deceased was a suspect in a robbery. He was just asking the man and his friend to get out of the middle of the street where they were blocking traffic. 
It does make more sense to think that as this would explain why the policeman did not take greater precautions. He simply thought it was not a big deal. If the deceased did think he was being arrested for robbery, it would also account for his aggressive behavior. 
Wonder what the next detail will be........


----------



## big rockpile

greg273 said:


> Your long-winded, divisive, cut and paste anti-Obama rant has NOTHING to do with what happened in Ferguson. The problems of north St. Louis have been around long before Obama was even born.
> To wit....
> The wealthy shipped all the jobs off to China, and you wonder why there is so much poverty in this country. Sure, blame the Democrats, not the filthy weasels that sell out their countrymen so they can make a few extra bucks by selling out the American worker. Productivity and corporate profits are through the roof, yet wages have remained flat. And you wonder why there is so much poverty... You'd have us believe that laziness is the only problem in this country, and greed is good. Hogwash Haypoint!


 
Made it a lot easier when Clinton signed NAFTA

big rockpile


----------



## where I want to

big rockpile said:


> Made it a lot easier when Clinton signed NAFTA
> 
> big rockpile


Now, now. Have some pity.......


----------



## MO_cows

HDRider said:


> I read this was his "record"
> 
> Description: Burglary - 1st Degree { Felony B RSMo: 569.160 }
> Date: 11/02/2013 Code: 1401000
> OCN: AJ006207 Arresting Agency: ST ANN PD
> 
> Description: Armed Criminal Action { Felony Unclassified RSMo: 571.015 }
> Date: 11/02/2013 Code: 3101000
> OCN: AJ006207 Arresting Agency: ST ANN PD
> 
> Description: Assault 1st Degree - Serious Physical Injury { Felony A RSMo: 565.050 }
> Date: 11/02/2013 Code: 1301100
> OCN: AJ006207 Arresting Agency: ST ANN PD
> 
> Description: Armed Criminal Action { Felony Unclassified RSMo: 571.015 }
> Date: 11/02/2013 Code: 3101000
> OCN: AJ006207 Arresting Agency: ST ANN PD


All the same date and jurisdiction, looks like multiple charges from one incident. Happened in November, it should have gone to trial by now. If he was on probation or parole you would think the media would report it. So maybe those charges were dropped or he was found not guilty??? Or maybe he was still a juvenile then so those records are not public??


----------



## Cornhusker

MO_cows said:


> All the same date and jurisdiction, looks like multiple charges from one incident. Happened in November, it should have gone to trial by now. If he was on probation or parole you would think the media would report it. So maybe those charges were dropped or he was found not guilty??? Or maybe he was still a juvenile then so those records are not public??


Or it's being suppressed by the "media"


----------



## BadFordRanger

poppy said:


> This is interesting. Cops were looking for a robbery suspect when the officer stopped Brown. Was Brown the robber? We don't know yet and everyone should wait and see. All is not as it seems in the press quite often. When someone is shot by the cops, his family always gets on tv telling what a great person he was. This guy was described by his family as a high school graduate going to college to be a doctor. Maybe so but you'd think a person like that wouldn't start an altercation with the cop in his car and then try to flee. Just sayin'.
> 
> http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...-michael-brown-robbing-store-before-shooting/


If he was going to go back to school, he was getting a late start. They said that he was 26 years old. Just saying too, LOL.

I just wanted to edit this because I can't figure out what is going on about this guys age.
One of the radio stations up here was even questioning it too. 
So far I have heard either two or three times that he was 26 years old but most of the time they are saying he's a teenager, and to look at his picture he doesn't look to be 26.


----------



## Shrek

poppy said:


> Yes, that story doesn't seem plausible in the least. The cop would have handcuffed him first and maybe was trying to when the altercation started. Most times a cop with 2 suspects will try to keep things under control until backup arrives.


That is why more LEAs are trying to return to two man radio cars instead of one man MDT and camera connected one man cars.

With a two man unit your first back up is in the passenger seat and although the risk of collusion between partners always exists, most times a partner in the radio car tends to help keep both officers honest, thinking calmer and all involved safer.


----------



## Glade Runner

MO_cows said:


> All the same date and jurisdiction, looks like multiple charges from one incident. Happened in November, it should have gone to trial by now. If he was on probation or parole you would think the media would report it. So maybe those charges were dropped or he was found not guilty??? Or maybe he was still a juvenile then so those records are not public??


Supposed to go to trial in September.


----------



## Glade Runner

So, one night of peace with the black Highway Patrol Captain and then back to looting. While the police watched and did nothing.

I really think this empowering of black criminals and thugs to pilage, burn and commit acts of violence without consequences is very dangerous and will only encourage more of such behaviour. At what point does society cry, "Enough!".


----------



## BadFordRanger

Yea, about his picture. A couple of articles on the net shows a couple of pictures of him they said his mother gave whoever to show how sweet her little monster was, and then the surveillance video came out where he was grabbing the guy that owned the store or worked there and the kid has the same hat on that he had on in the pictures that his dear mother was showing off of her "Oh, so sweet baby boy was!" 

And another thing is when does a cop try to pull a person into a police car by his neck????????????

That danged boy is dead because he needed to be dead in my book, and there are a lot more of them that needs to be with him too, before they kill a good person. And from what I have seen that cop was a good cop. I don't care for the police to much because the most of them lets the power of the uniform go directly to their bald heads. 
They are for the most part, well as I have read many times, "jack booted thugs!"
But from seeing the surveillance video which was supposed to be just prior to the cop killing him, he was looking for it, and he tried to jump a man that he shouldn't have tried to jump. Plain and simple. 
The thought because he was so big that he could do as he pleased, beat the cop to death and get him a gun to boot, and he only got was the working material in that gun. The lead.
I read somewhere that he was shot 8 times, so I don't know how that will go down if he did shoot him that many times. 
But he kid might have been on some drug that cause the bullets not to stop him in a hurry and he kept beating the cop even after he was shot. 
I don't know. I wasn't there and what we are seeing on the TV and internet sure as heck can't all be true. 
The biggest thing in my mine is the way he was acting in the surveillance video he was looking for trouble and that's what he got. 


Godspeed

Ranger


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## MJsLady

Shrek said:


> That is why more LEAs are trying to return to two man radio cars instead of one man MDT and camera connected one man cars.
> 
> With a two man unit your first back up is in the passenger seat and although the risk of collusion between partners always exists, most times a partner in the radio car tends to help keep both officers honest, thinking calmer and all involved safer.


When I was a kid I went to school in the Ferguson -Florissant school district. (McCluer North high! Go Stars)
There was a neighborhood called Kinloch (sp?) where my bus went everyday picking up kids.
The cops then, 2 men unit cars would not go in there unless 2 cars went. This was late 70s early 80s.

Seems to me things have not improved in the 30+ years since I was last there.


----------



## doingitmyself

1 down 9,734,226 more to go. Thankfully there is a new bullet being made call the "Thug Slug" . Heavier, slower, full expansion, rarely a pass through, similar to a varmint round.


----------



## where I want to

If he was indeed the man in the video, he certainly was not sweet nor innocent. The looters are simply similar self-involved criminals looking for an excuse to do what they want to do anyway.
However, as far as I can tell, the end of the story has not been told and extreme pronouncements of vitriol are way too early.


----------



## greg273

The national media is not helping things either... Just yesterday, listening to the radio 'news roundup' that occurs at the top of the hour, they broadcast what could only be described as a hysterical black woman, screaming about how they 'murdered this poor boy who had his hands up'.... No mention of WHY he got shot, which is because he robbed a store and punched a cop. And as far as I can tell, her statement is heresay anyway, if she wasn't there, she has no idea what went down, but here is the national media (ABC news) giving her a platform to spout one-sided, ill-informed, inflammatory comments to a national audience.


----------



## BadFordRanger

Where I want to, either my eyes are lying to me, or there is no doubt that the man in the video is the boy that is dead. 

His mother gave someone the pictures of him to show just how sweet her precious wittle boy was, and in the video, that very same hat, is setting on that Mans head, the same twisted way it sets on the boys head in his mama's picture. 

It is ironic. His mommy gave them the picture that helps prove his guilty face with the same hat on the head was the brute that shoved the owner/clerk? around in the video. 
I really love it when idiots do things like that. 
All that cop did was save us tax payers, tax dollars. 

Airborne

Ranger


----------



## greg273

HDRider said:


> They have confirm Brown as the robber.
> 
> Now the question is why an officer decided to use deadly force to stop a cigar thief.


 As has been said, the cop didn't know Brown had just committed a strong-arm robbery. That call hadn't come through yet. Brown was stopped for walking in the middle of the street. He then assaulted the cop, and was subsequently shot. I don't feel the least bit sorry for someone who commits robbery, assault, and then assaults a police officer and ends up shot.


----------



## where I want to

The family has confirmed it is their son. It is no longer in doubt. 
It is still frightening that so many are so ruled by pandering politicians eager to make political hay, social advocates willing to encourage violence to put themselves in the spotlight, media hungry to put their personal opinions in public and call it news, and everyone one not involved willing to spit at each other in both directions.
As my tag line says below .........


----------



## MJsLady

I wonder how much of this would have been avoided if the outsiders had stayed at home. 
If the kid attacked a cop, the cop had the right to shoot. 
Anyone who attacks some one needs to understand they may not get to walk away. 
I feel for the boy's mother, whether is is 18 or 26. She lost her son, that is sad. However she does need to accept he had a large part to play in his own ending.


----------



## DryHeat

> If the deceased did think he was being arrested for robbery, it would also account for his aggressive behavior.


This did occur to me yesterday as an important element that's so far just not been mentioned in the media. There was a reasonably credible interview I saw, also, with a young adult black female who described having been intimidated and pushed around by that officer last year, so I do doubt the cop was the most professional that you'd want to have employed...


----------



## Cornhusker

MJsLady said:


> I wonder how much of this would have been avoided if the outsiders had stayed at home.
> If the kid attacked a cop, the cop had the right to shoot.
> Anyone who attacks some one needs to understand they may not get to walk away.
> I feel for the boy's mother, whether is is 18 or 26. She lost her son, that is sad. However she does need to accept he had a large part to play in his own ending.


When you attack a man with a gun, the chances are better than even you will be shot.
Apparently he thought he could just push people around and take what he wanted.


----------



## MO_cows

MJsLady said:


> I wonder how much of this would have been avoided if the outsiders had stayed at home.
> If the kid attacked a cop, the cop had the right to shoot.
> Anyone who attacks some one needs to understand they may not get to walk away.
> I feel for the boy's mother, whether is is 18 or 26. She lost her son, that is sad. However she does need to accept he had a large part to play in his own ending.


I agree, the mom is the real victim here. From what has come out so far, she did her best to raise him right. But he's not the first one from good parents to go bad, it happens all the time and across all demographics.

Whether or not the cop acted properly, we don't have enough info. yet. If they were up close and struggling, heck yes, shoot him, it's self defense. But if Brown was a distance away as the witnesses said, then it doesn't seem necessary to shoot him. Taze him, wait for more officers to help get him down and cuffed, there were other options. And killing someone just to keep them from getting away would not be proper in what was a jay walking incident to start with! Being a cop is a tough job, you couldn't pay me enough to do it. But the ones who accepted the responsibility of policing also have to accept that they will be held to strict standards in how they use deadly force.


----------



## where I want to

And if he just let him walk away, and the man hurt someone else, then there would be plenty of noise about poor policing. A policeman can not afford to allow himself to be bullied by criminals.
There are not just two sides to a story- everyone has an overwhelming tendency to tell it from their own perspective. The criminal is always saying the police over react. Might be true but might not be true. It's hard to say when the only thing given is opinion.
If you ask someone being obnoxiously rude, they will say they were only speaking their mind as they can't say false things just to be nice. Always justifications.
Police are only humans being asked to do a job that can't be done perfectly no matter what. So until the dust settles, if people stop kicking more up, the facts will not be clear.


----------



## where I want to

There is one thing that is pretty clear- the protesting factions want only to hear reinforcement of their own opinions. They wanted the name of the officer, although a delay in that information is quite normal. When they got it, they complained that the other information was 'a plot to discredit' the 'victim.' When it turned out the information was correct, they complained the police were using irrelevant fact to discredit the deceased. There was even a Congressman ranting about it.
So the bottom line is, anything they don't want to hear should be suppressed while they fully intend to propagate any rumor they find selfserving as truth, screaming abuse at anyone objecting.


----------



## Guest123

DryHeat said:


> This did occur to me yesterday as an important element that's so far just not been mentioned in the media. *There was a reasonably credible interview I saw,* also, with a young adult black female who described having been intimidated and pushed around by that officer last year, so I do doubt the cop was the most professional that you'd want to have employed...


I am curious as to how you know she is credible? I am not saying she is not but I would not be surprised to see many "locals" being coached as to what to say by Black Panthers, Al Sharpton, and the like.


----------



## ROSEMAMA

This evening I called to check on a family member that lives in Florissant (just north of Ferguson). She said that there's much more going on than what's in the national media. 

For those of you who know the St. Louis area, she said the unrest has spread as far as West county and South county. She's even heard of some instances of people being pulled out of their cars and beaten at stop lights. 

She's just in her early 20's and lives with her BF and a new baby. I sure wish her mom could talk them into coming home until this passes, but they have jobs there that they desperately need, and I doubt they'll leave.


----------



## thesedays

I used to live in that area and frequently visited St. Louis. It's a strange place, race-wise. Among other things, you didn't see white people in "menial" jobs unless they were the manager or boss; those jobs were ALWAYS done by blacks (who were the type with missing teeth, made-up names, and dirt under their fingernails) or Hispanics of the type that didn't seem to comprehend any English. A poster on another board who used to change planes a lot at the St. Louis airport said she had noticed the same thing there. It didn't matter what part of town you were in, either. White people just plain old did not work behind a counter in that city.

Interestingly, I didn't notice this kind of thing on the Illinois side - just the Missouri side.

A medical board I sometimes post on has a section for OB/GYN, and there was one thread that I was surprised was allowed to stay up, because it was from people who had worked in assorted high-poverty areas (of all races) and many of them said that women who lived in certain neighborhoods or housing projects who came in to give birth should be sterilized, and the babies too.  I've also heard that from people who worked at alternative high schools. Really sad that there's a population anywhere where their life prognosis is that bad. These posters seemed to center around Temple University Hospital in Philadelphia.


----------



## thesedays

BadFordRanger said:


> If he was going to go back to school, he was getting a late start. They said that he was 26 years old. Just saying too, LOL.
> 
> I just wanted to edit this because I can't figure out what is going on about this guys age.
> One of the radio stations up here was even questioning it too.
> So far I have heard either two or three times that he was 26 years old but most of the time they are saying he's a teenager, and to look at his picture he doesn't look to be 26.


Michael was 18 years old. One of the police officers involved in this was 26 years old.


----------



## doingitmyself

18 years old, Thugging around and stealing cigars, that's about it in a nutshell. Stiff and cold Thug made a choice to strongarm rob a store for some cigars, he should have paid for them, it cost him more the way he chose to get them. Some of em just think they own the streets and hood, not true.


----------



## Cornhusker

Seems like they are importing looters, people willing to act like animals for free stuff.
This is beyond protesting, this is just bad people being bad


----------



## frogmammy

thesedays said:


> I used to live in that area and frequently visited St. Louis. It's a strange place, race-wise. Among other things, you didn't see white people in "menial" jobs unless they were the manager or boss; those jobs were ALWAYS done by blacks (who were the type with missing teeth, made-up names, and dirt under their fingernails) or Hispanics of the type that didn't seem to comprehend any English. A poster on another board who used to change planes a lot at the St. Louis airport said she had noticed the same thing there. It didn't matter what part of town you were in, either. White people just plain old did not work behind a counter in that city......


How odd. I live in St Louis city, have for well over 15 years. I see plenty of whites pushing brooms and mopping, and yes, even with blacks as bosses. I also see plenty of whites, and blacks, (both mostly young adults though) working the windows at fast food restaurants.

Is it evenly divided? Nope. The graduation rate in the city of St Louis for blacks is about 37%...and don't get proud, it's only about 41% for whites. People with less education get less choice in the jobs they are hired for.

"St Louis" is made up of about 90 different towns. Each "town" has their own strengths/weakness and IS different, both in inhabitants, customs, crime rate, and economic indicators. Jennings is decidedly different from Town and Country, even Chesterfield is different from UCity.

All that said, I always thought Ferguson was a decent place and relatively safe, for being in the city.

Mon


----------



## gweny

doingitmyself said:


> 18 years old, Thugging around and stealing cigars, that's about it in a nutshell. Stiff and cold Thug made a choice to strongarm rob a store for some cigars, he should have paid for them, it cost him more the way he chose to get them. Some of em just think they own the streets and hood, not true.


I couldn't hope to count the number of ridiculously stupid mistakes I made at 18.... And yet I am not a thug or hardened criminal.


----------



## thesedays

ROSEMAMA said:


> This evening I called to check on a family member that lives in Florissant (just north of Ferguson). She said that there's much more going on than what's in the national media.
> 
> For those of you who know the St. Louis area, she said the unrest has spread as far as West county and South county. She's even heard of some instances of people being pulled out of their cars and beaten at stop lights.
> 
> She's just in her early 20's and lives with her BF and a new baby. I sure wish her mom could talk them into coming home until this passes, but they have jobs there that they desperately need, and I doubt they'll leave.


Rosemama, who is doing the pulling out of cars and who's being beaten?


----------



## where I want to

gweny said:


> I couldn't hope to count the number of ridiculously stupid mistakes I made at 18.... And yet I am not a thug or hardened criminal.


Did that include stealing, walking out as if that was ok and then shoving the clerk who tried to stop you to the floor? If so, than yes, you were a thug. The stealing might be termed a mistake- the physical abuse goes beyond mistake.


----------



## gweny

Cornhusker said:


> Seems like they are importing looters, people willing to act like animals for free stuff.
> This is beyond protesting, this is just bad people being bad


Or a rebellion. I looked up the definitions for riot, rebellion, and revolution. It seems this is clearly a rebellion (150+ people refusing to submit to curfew) per definition. It seems they just have to effect change (to the constitution or governing regime) for it to qualify as a revolution. If that is in fact their purpose than the media needs to get their story straight. 
But, do not fret. I'm sure our tyrannical government will squash this uprising like it happened in a public square in china.


----------



## where I want to

gweny said:


> Or a rebellion. I looked up the definitions for riot, rebellion, and revolution. It seems this is clearly a rebellion (150+ people refusing to submit to curfew) per definition. It seems they just have to effect change (to the constitution or governing regime) for it to qualify as a revolution. If that is in fact their purpose than the media needs to get their story straight.
> But, do not fret. I'm sure our tyrannical government will squash this uprising like it happened in a public square in china.


Going way over the top. As far as I heard, Tianimen Square did not include rioters burning down businesses. I did include one brave soul placing himself quietly in front of a tank. 

So basically, you think that our tyrannical government should not interfere with the peopke desire to loot?


----------



## gweny

where I want to said:


> Did that include stealing, walking out as if that was ok and then shoving the clerk who tried to stop you to the floor? If so, than yes, you were a thug. The stealing might be termed a mistake- the physical abuse goes beyond mistake.


What physical abuse? He threatened the guy. He didn't attack the clerk.
He was 18!!! Children in today's society don't start making decent decisions until they are in their 30s!

He was shot 8 times?!?!?!

8 times!

His hands were up in the air! 

Perhaps he was resisting arrest but at the moment when the guy shot him he was not. 

He had no gun and nothing on his person that even slightly, in the dark, with bad eye sight, even resembled a weapon.

If they can do it to him, they can do it to you.


----------



## gweny

where I want to said:


> Going way over the top. As far as I heard, Tianimen Square did not include rioters burning down businesses. I did include one brave soul placing himself quietly in front of a tank.
> 
> So basically, you think that our tyrannical government should not interfere with the peopke desire to loot?


No, I think that it is the governments job to maintain peace and order. I think they are terrible at their job, have abandoned that purpose, and simply focus on making money / have sold out to big business.
I believe the police officers are a product of that environment. They are tasked with maintaining order on a sinking ship. That is nearly impossible without becoming a monster or at least taking orders from one.
The people of this country have been manipulated into divisions and pitted against each other for decades for the purpose of media sensation and populace control.
A nation divided... And all that.


----------



## where I want to

gweny said:


> What physical abuse? He threatened the guy. He didn't attack the clerk.
> He was 18!!! Children in today's society don't start making decent decisions until they are in their 30s!
> 
> He was shot 8 times?!?!?!
> 
> 8 times!
> 
> His hands were up in the air!
> 
> Perhaps he was resisting arrest but at the moment when the guy shot him he was not.
> 
> He had no gun and nothing on his person that even slightly, in the dark, with bad eye sight, even resembled a weapon.
> 
> If they can do it to him, they can do it to you.


He was six foot tall shoving around a guy not even 5 I suspect.
It is alleged he has his hands up when shot- it is alleged he was dragged into the car- it is alleged he was a gentle person.
It is also alleged he stole, attacked the policeman, then tried to run away.
The point is that it is alleged. You seem to have convicted the policeman solely on allegations. Don't you think that facts should play some part? Being unarmed does not mean harmless. Being 18 does not mean harmless.

I admit that the number of shots is something that raises a question. But there are many other questions too. And those need answering prior to conviction.

What is known, is that he did assault the clerk, that the allegations of his innocence and harmlessness is called into question by the video, that he was shot. The statement of his friend is not reasonable. More is going on. Intimidation and violence is not the way to get the facts. It seems to be the method of suppressing the facts.


----------



## where I want to

gweny said:


> No, I think that it is the governments job to maintain peace and order. I think they are terrible at their job, have abandoned that purpose, and simply focus on making money / have sold out to big business.
> I believe the police officers are a product of that environment. They are tasked with maintaining order on a sinking ship. That is nearly impossible without becoming a monster or at least taking orders from one.
> The people of this country have been manipulated into divisions and pitted against each other for decades for the purpose of media sensation and populace control.
> A nation divided... And all that.


And I think that the people have abandoned civilty and abiding with the law as much as possible. Around here there are occasional police shootings but by far, criminals are shooting each other at an incredible rate and the overflow violence is putting everyone else at risk. 
It would be nice if people did not steal, abuse and kill each other out of selfinvolvement but they do. They get the policing they deserve.


----------



## gweny

where I want to said:


> He was six foot tall shoving around a guy not even 5 I suspect.
> It is alleged he has his hands up when shot- it is alleged he was dragged into the car- it is alleged he was a gentle person.
> It is also alleged he stole, attacked the policeman, then tried to run away.
> The point is that it is alleged. You seem to have convicted the policeman solely on allegations. Don't you think that facts should play some part? Being unarmed does not mean harmless. Being 18 does not mean harmless.
> 
> I admit that the number of shots is something that raises a question. But there are many other questions too. And those need answering prior to conviction.
> 
> What is known, is that he did assault the clerk, that the allegations of his innocence and harmlessness is called into question by the video, that he was shot. The statement of his friend is not reasonable. More is going on. Intimidation and violence is not the way to get the facts. It seems to be the method of suppressing the facts.


I am not convicting the police man or the dead guy. I am supporting the rebellion. Please try to understand the albeit slight, difference.


----------



## gweny

where I want to said:


> And I think that the people have abandoned civilty and abiding with the law as much as possible. Around here there are occasional police shootings but by far, criminals are shooting each other at an incredible rate and the overflow violence is putting everyone else at risk.
> It would be nice if people did not steal, abuse and kill each other out of selfinvolvement but they do. They get the policing they deserve.


No unarmed man deserves to be shot 8 times without first being tried and judged by a jury of his/her peers.


----------



## Kasota

> He was 18!!! Children in today's society don't start making decent decisions until they are in their 30s!


By your argument, anyone under the age of 30 should not be able to vote. If people can't make decent decisions until they are 30 then they shouldn't be teaching in schools, being nurses, allowed to consume alcohol, drive a car or operate heavy equipment. Somehow I doubt you would agree with that. I know I sure wouldn't.

Saying people make mistakes at 18 is a far different cry from saying they should not be held accountable for their actions at 18. Even a 12 year old who steals is still a thief. He might not always be a thief. He might change his ways. But at that moment he is a thief. Stealing from a store and strong-arming the clerk makes a person an abusive thug and a thief in my book. Had he not been killed he might have changed his ways so that he would be a thug no more, but on that day he was a thug. He might have had other positive characteristics, but the truth is that he had some unfavorable ones, too. Ignoring either the positives or the negatives is creating an incomplete story and is only 1/2 the truth. 

Rebellion doesn't include strong-arming and physically assaulting the clerk. It doesn't include looting privately owned businesses let alone setting on fire a store that had nothing to do with the man who was shot and killed. Rebellion? Looting liquor stores is a rebellion? Looting stores to steal fancy shoes is a rebellion? Stealing tires is a rebellion? What did those store owners have to do with any of it? What were they rebelling against? Retail stores and job opportunities? 

You make other good points. If the young man had his hands in the air he should not have been shot and killed. Calling theft, damage to property and looting a "rebellion" weakens what you have to say. If a person sticks to the truth they make a better case for reasoned discourse...something obviously sorely needed in Ferguson and all around the country. 

There are other people in the community who are trying to make a difference and stop the senseless rioting and looting. They are out there picking up the garbage and helping store owners set things to rights at the same time that they are calling for a complete and transparent investigation. They have demands they want met but they are not burning down the neighborhood. They are trying to build bridges instead of fanning the fires and creating chaos. I surely applaud them and their efforts.


----------



## gweny

where I want to said:


> And I think that the people have abandoned civilty and abiding with the law as much as possible. Around here there are occasional police shootings but by far, criminals are shooting each other at an incredible rate and the overflow violence is putting everyone else at risk.
> It would be nice if people did not steal, abuse and kill each other out of selfinvolvement but they do. They get the policing they deserve.


Revolutionists do not answer to the government they are trying to overthrow. During rebellions people rebel :shock:
Bad people (exist in all levels of society and every race) are going to take advantage of the situation. People that have nothing to lose have everything to gain. The government can't fight them (people that have nothing to lose). The police are desperate. I get it. I'm not blaming the cop.


----------



## MoonRiver

gweny said:


> What physical abuse? He threatened the guy. He didn't attack the clerk.
> He was 18!!! Children in today's society don't start making decent decisions until they are in their 30s!
> 
> He was shot 8 times?!?!?!
> 
> 8 times!
> 
> His hands were up in the air!
> 
> Perhaps he was resisting arrest but at the moment when the guy shot him he was not.
> 
> He had no gun and nothing on his person that even slightly, in the dark, with bad eye sight, even resembled a weapon.
> 
> If they can do it to him, they can do it to you.


How do you know all of this is fact?


----------



## gweny

Kasota said:


> By your argument, anyone under the age of 30 should not be able to vote. If people can't make decent decisions until they are 30 then they shouldn't be teaching in schools, being nurses, allowed to consume alcohol, drive a car or operate heavy equipment.
> 
> Or fighting for our country. I agree. I do believe 18 yos should be held accountable, but most parents today continue to support / coddle their kids. It is socially acceptable to sponge off your parents / be irresponsible until 30. I dont agree with it, but nevertheless...
> 
> 
> Somehow I doubt you would agree with that. I know I sure wouldn't.
> 
> Saying people make mistakes at 18 is a far different cry from saying they should not be held accountable for their actions at 18. Even a 12 year old who steals is still a thief. He might not always be a thief. He might change his ways. But at that moment he is a thief. Stealing from a store and strong-arming the clerk makes a person an abusive thug and a thief in my book.
> 
> But is shooting an unarmed 12yo OK to you? At what age is it Permissible to shoot an unarmed man in your opinion? Now what if he had his hands up too?
> 
> Had he not been killed he might have changed his ways so that he would be a thug no more, but on that day he was a thug. He might have had other positive characteristics, but the truth is that he had some unfavorable ones, too. Ignoring either the positives or the negatives is creating an incomplete story and is only 1/2 the truth.
> 
> Rebellion doesn't include strong-arming and physically assaulting the clerk.
> 
> Again, I'm not defending the kids actions. Stealing is wrong. For a 1$ cigar I believe he should've got some community service or maybe a few months in a work release program, but I am not assigned to his jury and neither are you... Cause he is dead and will never get his day in court.
> I am not fighting for him. I am arguing my own right to a day in court if my actions may seem to warrant it.
> 
> 
> It doesn't include looting privately owned businesses let alone setting on fire a store that had nothing to do with the man who was shot and killed. Rebellion? Looting liquor stores is a rebellion? Looting stores to steal fancy shoes is a rebellion? Stealing tires is a rebellion? What did those store owners have to do with any of it? What were they rebelling against? Retail stores and job opportunities?
> 
> They are rebelling against big business and our government which they believe are one and the same.
> 
> You make other good points. If the young man had his hands in the air he should not have been shot and killed. Calling theft, damage to property and looting a "rebellion"
> 
> A handful of looters in a crowd of hundreds does not make theft the purpose.
> 
> weakens what you have to say. If a person sticks to the truth they make a better case for reasoned discourse...something obviously sorely needed in Ferguson and all around the country.
> 
> There are other people in the community who are trying to make a difference and stop the senseless rioting and looting.
> 
> It is not senseless. These people are patriots. The majority of our armed forces are black. These are the families of the soldiers that are fighting for our country. 80% of army enlisted are black!!! These are the people willing to die (if they have to)to protect our freedom.
> 
> They are out there picking up the garbage and helping store owners set things to rights at the same time that they are calling for a complete and transparent investigation. They have demands they want met but they are not burning down the neighborhood. They are trying to build bridges instead of fanning the fires and creating chaos. I surely applaud them and their efforts.


Again, please don't judge the whole community by the actions of a few zealots. Also, please don't judge a dead man that was denied his right to trial by jury of his peers. 
That is why the people protest, rebel, or riot (whatever you want to see it as). A man was denied his rights. Please don't dismiss the issue because you don't like the guy or his actions.


----------



## gweny

MoonRiver said:


> How do you know all of this is fact?


There is a video. It is viral now. I'm sure you can find it. I apologize for being unable to post a link


----------



## Kasota

I'm not dismissing what happened to him at all. Did you read what I wrote? 

I also strongly object you you including as a quote things I did not say. You included YOUR answer to what I was saying as if I had said them. 

*I did not say this:*


> But is shooting an unarmed 12yo OK to you? At what age is it Permissible to shoot an unarmed man in your opinion? Now what if he had his hands up too?


Of course shooting an unarmed 12 year old is ok. I never said that. Why are you making it sound as if I did? 

*I did not say this:*


> Again, I'm not defending the kids actions. Stealing is wrong. For a 1$ cigar I believe he should've got some community service or maybe a few months in a work release program, but I am not assigned to his jury and neither are you... Cause he is dead and will never get his day in court.
> I am not fighting for him. I am arguing my own right to a day in court if my actions may seem to warrant it.


I never said he didn't deserve a day in court. 

*I did not say this:*


> They are rebelling against big business and our government which they believe are one and the same.


I don't at all think that looting and ransacking a local privately owned business has anything to do with "rebelling" against a government. To assume they think it is the same thing is a slam against their intelligence. 

*I did not say this:*


> A handful of looters in a crowd of hundreds does not make theft the purpose.


*I did not say this:*


> It is not senseless. These people are patriots. The majority of our armed forces are black. These are the families of the soldiers that are fighting for our country. 80% of army enlisted are black!!! These are the people willing to die (if they have to)to protect our freedom.


Qweny, I am out of puppets and crayons. I never dismissed the person, I just pointed out both sides of things. Please refrain from putting in quotes and saying "Originally Posted by Kasota" things that I did not say.


----------



## MoonRiver

gweny said:


> There is a video. It is viral now. I'm sure you can find it. I apologize for being unable to post a link


Do you mean this one that says Brown was rushing the policeman?

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/168...tail-background-video-mins-ferguson-shooting/


----------



## gweny

Kasota said:


> I'm not dismissing what happened to him at all. Did you read what I wrote?
> 
> I also strongly object you you including as a quote things I did not say. You included YOUR answer to what I was saying as if I had said them.
> 
> *I did not say this:*
> 
> 
> Of course shooting an unarmed 12 year old is ok. I never said that. Why are you making it sound as if I did?
> 
> *I did not say this:*
> 
> 
> I never said he didn't deserve a day in court.
> 
> *I did not say this:*
> 
> 
> I don't at all think that looting and ransacking a local privately owned business has anything to do with "rebelling" against a government. To assume they think it is the same thing is a slam against their intelligence.
> 
> *I did not say this:*
> 
> 
> *I did not say this:*
> 
> 
> Qweny, I am out of puppets and crayons. I never dismissed the person, I just pointed out both sides of things. Please refrain from putting in quotes and saying "Originally Posted by Kasota" things that I did not say.


Whoa! Lol! I was merely trying to respond to each part of your response individually. I apologize if it appears that way. My options on this phone are limited and my ability to use the limited technology available is even more limited. 

To all posters reading...

I was responding to the post not inserting my own thoughts and ideals in an attempt to pervert another's thoughts and ideals.

I strongly respect your opinions even if I do not agree with them. I again apologize for any misconception. I will not respond using that method any further.


----------



## gweny

MoonRiver said:


> Do you mean this one that says Brown was rushing the policeman?
> 
> http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/168...tail-background-video-mins-ferguson-shooting/


No, I mean the many. Not just one. Including the ones of the peaceful protesters and the one of the 18yo stealing the cigar. Also the ones of the cops in riot gear attacking the crowd. This is not about one man or one incident. This is a vicious problem that transcends race. Our government is attacking our people.
Wasn't there a thread on here just this week from a poster on her own experience with unwarranted police harassment?
This country is coming apart at the seams. Police brutality is just a symptom.


----------



## tarbe

gweny said:


> No, I mean the many. Not just one. Including the ones of the peaceful protesters and the one of the 18yo stealing the cigar. Also the ones of the cops in riot gear attacking the crowd. This is not about one man or one incident. This is a vicious problem that transcends race. Our government is attacking our people.
> Wasn't there a thread on here just this week from a poster on her own experience with unwarranted police harassment?
> This country is coming apart at the seams. Police brutality is just a symptom.



Is is police brutality when they defend themselves? From the link above:

"And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something.â


----------



## MoonRiver

gweny said:


> No, I mean the many. Not just one. Including the ones of the peaceful protesters and the one of the 18yo stealing the cigar. Also the ones of the cops in riot gear attacking the crowd. This is not about one man or one incident. This is a vicious problem that transcends race. Our government is attacking our people.
> Wasn't there a thread on here just this week from a poster on her own experience with unwarranted police harassment?
> This country is coming apart at the seams. Police brutality is just a symptom.


This is likely about an 18 year on some type of drug that committed a robbery, shoved the clerk, and then panicked when a cop stopped him.

What happened after that is largely a result of liberal politics creating a culture of dependency, victimhood, and a failed education system.


----------



## MichaelZ

Everyone has the right to peaceful protest. Nobody has the right to violent protest.

This case is certainly not open and shut - it would be good if people would wait for the facts to come in. Sounds like there was a struggle, but after that is where we are missing info. Regardless of what happened in the struggle (if there was one), the policeman is only justified in shooting if his life or someone else's is in danger - I am fairly certain that shooting a fleeing unarmed man is not justified. Perhaps the policeman lost his composure after the struggle? We all do things we normally would not when under stress. The robbery prior (assuming there was one) and the large size of the man shot do not matter in justifying the shooting. And the race of the man should never be a factor. The size of the man, however, may have been a factor in the mental state of the policeman in this incident if he got punched by him, which is what appears to be the case. Let's wait and see.


----------



## HDRider

gweny said:


> There is a video. It is viral now. I'm sure you can find it. I apologize for being unable to post a link


Here is one for you...

[YOUTUBE]5f0mVn0HH6U[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## gweny

MoonRiver said:


> This is likely about an 18 year on some type of drug that committed a robbery, shoved the clerk, and then panicked when a cop stopped him.
> 
> What happened after that is largely a result of liberal politics creating a culture of dependency, victimhood, and a failed education system.


Agreed! :big big smile:

But that doesn't mean it is not a rebellion with a chance of becoming a full on revolution if not handled judiciously. I'm riveted!

Help! The media machine has got me! Lol


----------



## rambotex

Gwen,

Who and how do you propose to "squash the uprising"?


----------



## gweny

rambotex said:


> Gwen,
> 
> Who and how do you propose to "squash the uprising"?


What? Why would I attempt to squash an uprising?! I just intend to stay out of it. I'm just keeping my ear to the ground and trying to share my intel with the folks I want to make it!


----------



## where I want to

gweny said:


> No, I mean the many. Not just one. Including the ones of the peaceful protesters and the one of the 18yo stealing the cigar. Also the ones of the cops in riot gear attacking the crowd. This is not about one man or one incident. This is a vicious problem that transcends race. Our government is attacking our people.
> Wasn't there a thread on here just this week from a poster on her own experience with unwarranted police harassment?
> This country is coming apart at the seams. Police brutality is just a symptom.


Although I have serious doubts about the police exerting themselves to save me personally, they might. They certainly made arrests in another case where those two Amish girls were kidnapped and raped. They did not save the girls but they did save some other girls from the same thing. They went to a dozen car accidents in the last week to help save lives and determine fault. They gave speeches in elementary schools on crossing roads safely and gave classes on bicycle safety. They arrested thieves and returned stolen property. They closed down massive illegal pot grows that were sucking creeks dry that were needed for household water and were poisoning local wild life. They spent hours talking a person intending to jump off a bridge not to do it and took them to mental health. They arrested number of drunk drivers before their erratic driving killed someone.

I think you are looking through your own long dark tunnel to miss most of the picture.


----------



## Paumon

gweny said:


> Agreed! :big big smile:
> 
> But *that doesn't mean it is not a rebellion with a chance of becoming a full on revolution* if not handled judiciously. I'm riveted!
> 
> Help! The media machine has got me! Lol


I doubt that will happen. In a week or two it will be old news and the public will be riveted to whatever else is the media machine's new flavour of the day.


----------



## MO_cows

HDRider said:


> Here is one for you...
> 
> [YOUTUBE]5f0mVn0HH6U[/YOUTUBE]


That was awesome! You could see the fire in his eyes, hear the intensity in his voice. Where are the rest like him? You know they are out there, there are far too many black Americans who have made something out of themselves for there not to be.


----------



## MichaelZ

I was stopped by a whole army of county cops last fall. As I was driving by a convenience store that just got robbed, the store staff (incorrectly) identified my vehicle as the get-away vehicle. I had to get out of the vehicle and walk backwards with hands up. Had I tried anything, anything, I would not be typing now, I would be dead as they had multiple assault rifles on us. After they found my wife and two kids in the vehicle and verified we were innocent, I was let go, with apologies. Here is the thing: The officer holding me in custody was shaking like a leaf. He was scared to death! We were identified as a large get-away vehicle with 4 occupants - they were expecting a possible all-out gun fight! Cops get scared too, and when scared, they might not use good or correct judgement. Had I pressed them, things would not have gone too well. For this policeman in the Brown incident, he was perhaps scared for his life too - that could have been a large factor here. And if the two young adults in this incident had gotten off the road when asked, I am guessing things would have gone better as well. 

If the police in the Brown incident used vulgar language in his request, as has been claimed, then he helped to escalate this incident - if that is the case, he should be fired on the spot - no law enforcement officer should be allowed to treat citizens in an abusive manner like that. In fact, I would say there are grounds for a civil suit if he acted so improperly.


----------



## greg273

gweny said:


> Agreed! :big big smile:
> 
> But that doesn't mean it is not a rebellion with a chance of becoming a full on revolution if not handled judiciously. I'm riveted!
> 
> Help! The media machine has got me! Lol


 A revolution? Against what? Look, a man robbed a convenient store, punched a cop, and got killed over it. Nothing surprising about the outcome, assaulting an armed man is a good way to get shot.


----------



## poppy

greg273 said:


> A revolution? Against what? Look, a man robbed a convenient store, punched a cop, and got killed over it. Nothing surprising about the outcome, assaulting an armed man is a good way to get shot.


I agree 100% but the blacks in Ferguson don't see it that way. In black neighborhoods any excuse is often good enough reason for them to riot. It will die down. If black communities of other cities were going to go on a rampage in sympathy with them, it would have happened by now.


----------



## poppy

MO_cows said:


> That was awesome! You could see the fire in his eyes, hear the intensity in his voice. Where are the rest like him? You know they are out there, there are far too many black Americans who have made something out of themselves for there not to be.


Obviously an Uncle Tom who likely shines the white police chief's shoes.


----------



## kasilofhome

poppy said:


> I agree 100% but thethose in Ferguson riotingdon't see it that way. Insome neighborhoods any excuse is often good enough reason for them to riot. It will die down. If those communities of other cities were going to go on a rampage in sympathy with them, it would have happened by now.


It is not race that causes this it is behavior. Allowing the excuse that the behavior is do to race removes their personal responsibility and eliminates their capability in criminal acts.


----------



## poppy

Here's a video at the scene with an eyewitness who obviously is a black man. Some background noise, so listen closely and see what you think.

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/168...tail-background-video-mins-ferguson-shooting/


----------



## poppy

kasilofhome said:


> It is not race that causes this it is behavior. Allowing the excuse that the behavior is do to race removes their personal responsibility and eliminates their capability in criminal acts.


No argument here, but it works for them.


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

Autopsy releases ... 6 shots, 4 in the arm, two in the head. All from the front. This man wasn't shot while running away from the officer, but coming toward him


----------



## davel745

It is all about Marshall law being declared so Obama can suspend the constitution and become king. Stay tuned.


----------



## TripleD

The bottom line is if the cop was black we wouldnt even be talking about it !


----------



## MoonRiver

I don't think Ferguson was specifically planned, but I think racial unrest is a strategy being used by some very un-American people. I also think Conservatives and particularly Tea Party members are being provoked in the hopes they will react violently. Someone seems to want to start a race war.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

MoonRiver said:


> Someone seems to want to start a race war.


Are their names Jesse and Al?


----------



## where I want to

All the talk about what really happened is just wasted. No matter what the details show it will come down to the same three facts- that Brown was black, unarmed and shot multiple times. For the protestors, it is irrelevant what he was doing or had been doing- they will put those three things together and say that proves racial assassination. If it is determined that Brown was high or that he had been violent minutes before or that he had attacked the policeman, it will be either disbelieved or dismissed.
It seems what is important is that TPTB accommodate them as a display of respect. But that is a never ending proposition- there is never enough "respect" to pass around. In fact, the less a person feels they have earned respect, the more they tend to demand from others. Continuously.
Thus the pandering by politicians, the vociferous aligning of various agencies with the protesters' emotional outbursts, will only bring more violence, not less. What politicians see as expessing sympathy to mollify, protesters see as justification for further demands.
The only way that politicians and government agencies can suppress the violence is by appearing rigorously determined to provide the truth. No matter who it makes unhappy. If they appear to be pandering, even if it is towards the protesters, then the joy ride together ends immediately at the point a demand can not be met. They will have shown they have no integrity and only have value if they are of use.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

I still don't understand some peoples objections to the police showing up at a riot with riot gear.
Let's say they didn't, let's say they all showed up and stood by wearing just their uniforms and had no specialized equipment or gear.....anyone care to guess as to how many police officers would be in tje hospital or morgue right now???


----------



## poppy

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> I still don't understand some peoples objections to the police showing up at a riot with riot gear.
> Let's say they didn't, let's say they all showed up and stood by wearing just their uniforms and had no specialized equipment or gear.....anyone care to guess as to how many police officers would be in tje hospital or morgue right now???


I don't think many object to riot gear such as face helmets, shields, tear gas, and such but the use of ex military armored vehicles is a bit over the top. Police dealt with riots for decades without those things. Just the appearance of those items of war makes some people, me included, feel like our police are getting close to being just another military force.


----------



## Cornhusker

gweny said:


> What physical abuse? He threatened the guy. He didn't attack the clerk.
> He was 18!!! Children in today's society don't start making decent decisions until they are in their 30s!
> 
> He was shot 8 times?!?!?!
> 
> 8 times!
> 
> His hands were up in the air!
> 
> Perhaps he was resisting arrest but at the moment when the guy shot him he was not.
> 
> He had no gun and nothing on his person that even slightly, in the dark, with bad eye sight, even resembled a weapon.
> 
> If they can do it to him, they can do it to you.


18 is not a child, and the video proves he shoved the clerk and then continued to intimidate the much smaller man.
According to credible witnesses, he attacked the cop.
Time to stop making excuses, people need to be responsible for their own behavior, and we need to stop thinking of grown people as children.


----------



## Cornhusker

gweny said:


> I am not convicting the police man or the dead guy. I am supporting the rebellion. Please try to understand the albeit slight, difference.


It's not a rebellion, it's a riot, looting, arson, theft, criminals acting like criminals.
They are using the dead as an excuse, and people like Sharpton are encouraging them.


----------



## Cornhusker

gweny said:


> No unarmed man deserves to be shot 8 times without first being tried and judged by a jury of his/her peers.


He attacked the cop, would you have the cop just hand over his gun and keys to a thug? (Oh, excuse me, I meant "child")


----------



## Cornhusker

gweny said:


> Again, please don't judge the whole community by the actions of a few zealots. Also, please don't judge a dead man that was denied his right to trial by jury of his peers.
> That is why the people protest, rebel, or riot (whatever you want to see it as). A man was denied his rights. Please don't dismiss the issue because you don't like the guy or his actions.


And the criminals already decided the cop is guilty, and if a mob kills his family, Sharpton and Obama will tell you they deserved it and nobody will riot, loot or burn in their name.
But then not everybody is a thief.


----------



## Cornhusker

MichaelZ said:


> I was stopped by a whole army of county cops last fall. As I was driving by a convenience store that just got robbed, the store staff (incorrectly) identified my vehicle as the get-away vehicle. I had to get out of the vehicle and walk backwards with hands up. Had I tried anything, anything, I would not be typing now, I would be dead as they had multiple assault rifles on us. After they found my wife and two kids in the vehicle and verified we were innocent, I was let go, with apologies. Here is the thing: The officer holding me in custody was shaking like a leaf. He was scared to death! We were identified as a large get-away vehicle with 4 occupants - they were expecting a possible all-out gun fight! Cops get scared too, and when scared, they might not use good or correct judgement. Had I pressed them, things would not have gone too well. For this policeman in the Brown incident, he was perhaps scared for his life too - that could have been a large factor here. And if the two young adults in this incident had gotten off the road when asked, I am guessing things would have gone better as well.
> 
> If the police in the Brown incident used vulgar language in his request, as has been claimed, then he helped to escalate this incident - if that is the case, he should be fired on the spot - no law enforcement officer should be allowed to treat citizens in an abusive manner like that. In fact, I would say there are grounds for a civil suit if he acted so improperly.


Same thing happened to me years ago.
I left a liquor store after buying some beer, and as soon as I left, the place was robbed.
My car was the last one anyone saw, and before I got home, maybe 5 minutes later, I was surrounded by cops pointing guns at me. I was cuffed and stuffed while they sorted things out.
I have no doubt if I had rushed the first cop to stop me, he would have shot me dead, and Al Sharpton, NAACP and all the other racists out there wouldn't have cared less. Nobody would have rioted, no business would have been broken into, no fires set, no free TVs or sneakers.
As it turned out, I wasn't stupid enough to rush an armed, nervous cop so he didn't shoot me.


----------



## Cornhusker

TripleD said:


> The bottom line is if the cop was black we wouldnt even be talking about it !


If the shootee wasn't black, we wouldn't be talking about it either.


----------



## Glade Runner

Now the useless Democrat governor of Missouri has called out the National Guard. Who's going to complain about the 'militarized' police force now. Interesting how things have gotten worse since he dumped all over local law enforcement.


----------



## TRellis

Well, talk about ironyâ¦

The media, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, the black state police officer, the state governor and Obama have all criticized the city and county officers for overreacting to âpeacefulâ protests by employing riot gear, tear gas, militaristic vehicles and weapons.

The black state police officer takes charge of security. He walks and talks with the locals and we have one night of actual peace. Then we have a night of rioting, looting, shootings and tear gas. The governor responds by placing a curfew on the area. The response is another night or two of the same *after *the curfew.

So now the governor decides that the answer to all of this havoc is to send in the National Guard. Does he expect the NG to not use their *military *weapons, *military *vehicles, tear gas and riot gear? Though the NG normally does some training in crowd control and riot suppression I do not think that has been the bulk of their more recent training.

I think some people owe an apology to the local and county law enforcement officers since they have not done any better with their methods of suppressing and controlling the chaos.

And, as far as I can tell the only serious injuries that have occurred during all of this mayhem were perpetrated by the rioters. Those shot were shot by rioters/looters, cops were injured by thrown bricks, bottles and rocks. 

This may get real interesting.


TRellis


----------



## Cornhusker

Glade Runner said:


> Now the useless Democrat governor of Missouri has called out the National Guard. Who's going to complain about the 'militarized' police force now. Interesting how things have gotten worse since he dumped all over local law enforcement.


Why does it seem Democrats always make things worse?


----------



## TRellis

The initial autopsy report says that six shots hit the victim in the front of his body which somewhat contradicts the eyewitness accounts that said that the officer shot the victim while his arms were raised as if surrendering.

But this little tidbit will soon be explained away and stories will change again.

TRellis


----------



## Cornhusker

TRellis said:


> The initial autopsy report says that six shots hit the victim in the front of his body which somewhat contradicts the eyewitness accounts that said that the officer shot the victim while his arms were raised as if surrendering.
> 
> But this little tidbit will soon be explained away and stories will change again.
> 
> TRellis


They don't want the truth, they just want an excuse


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

poppy said:


> I don't think many object to riot gear such as face helmets, shields, tear gas, and such but the use of ex military armored vehicles is a bit over the top. Police dealt with riots for decades without those things. Just the appearance of those items of war makes some people, me included, feel like our police are getting close to being just another military force.


Ok, so the armored vehicles may appear as items of war. So do crowds of people rioting, looting, throwing bricks, etc, have you ever seen news footage of any of the war zones, primarily civil wars in some of the middle east nations? The riotous crowds in Missouri pretty much resemble the crowds of rebels there.....or am I just imagining things?

Gweny, you seem to keep pushing the issue that Brown was denied his day in court, well, if he was still alive today to go to court, chances are it would only be if that police officer were denied his ability to defend himself by any means against a much larger man (criminal) who was charging him, after he had assulted him once already and been ordered to freeze, yet continued to charge...

So, what would you do if you were the cop? Let the aggressor charge you, beat you again, possibly steal your weapon?

Once an aggressor shows they have no regard for authority, and attacks an officer once, and then charges him again, almost certainly to attack again, he deserves to be shot.


----------



## MoonRiver

Does anyone know why a tox report takes so long?


----------



## frogmammy

MoonRiver said:


> Does anyone know why a tox report takes so long?


http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/features/the-truth-about-toxicology-tests

Mon


----------



## Cornhusker

MoonRiver said:


> Does anyone know why a tox report takes so long?


They take a while, but what do you want to bet Holder will try to suppress the info if it shows Brown was hopped up on goofballs?


----------



## greg273

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> Let's say they didn't, let's say they all showed up and stood by wearing just their uniforms and had no specialized equipment or gear.....anyone care to guess as to how many police officers would be in tje hospital or morgue right now???


 Yeah, they tried that last Friday night, the 'softer and gentler' approach, and 6 officers were hurt by flying bricks, rocks, and Molotov cocktails. Luckily no officers were hurt by the very real bullets flying at them. 
On a positive note, one idiotic looter shot a fellow criminal. And I am heartened to see there have been plenty of store owners toting assault rifles guarding their own stores.


----------



## greg273

Cornhusker said:


> 18 is not a child, and the video proves he shoved the clerk and then continued to intimidate the much smaller man.
> According to credible witnesses, he attacked the cop.
> Time to stop making excuses, people need to be responsible for their own behavior, and we need to stop thinking of grown people as children.


 You got that right Cornhusker. And we know the cop ended up in the hospital with contusions to the face... he was attacked in his cruiser by the deceased criminal.


----------



## kasilofhome

Blaming events on racism is the straw man argument used to excuse bad behavior and personal responsibility, to avoid consequences, and to maintain use of a victim card.

The dead man if it is true that he was a thief,bully,and violent despite being male, despite being dark, despite being a young adult it would be better to accept that his actions, character, and life choices are why he is dead. 

Perhaps focusing on his behavior and the results of his choice....dying just might serve to teach others that there is a better choice in life to make.

Thugs come in all sizes,sexes, incomes, races, colors, education ....it clearly seems that it was his choices that lead to his death not his race ...race is used to avoid the harsh reality.

I think his family is hurting by the pain his choices caused them. It is easier to blame any one but those we love.

Now, we only have a bit of the info ....and info is not all in but I am bashing my statements on the video, his current rap sheet, and what the autopsy has revealed.


----------



## BadFordRanger

Cornhusker said:


> Same thing happened to me years ago.
> I left a liquor store after buying some beer, and as soon as I left, the place was robbed.
> My car was the last one anyone saw, and before I got home, maybe 5 minutes later, I was surrounded by cops pointing guns at me. I was cuffed and stuffed while they sorted things out.
> I have no doubt if I had rushed the first cop to stop me, he would have shot me dead, and Al Sharpton, NAACP and all the other racists out there wouldn't have cared less. Nobody would have rioted, no business would have been broken into, no fires set, no free TVs or sneakers.
> As it turned out, I wasn't stupid enough to rush an armed, nervous cop so he didn't shoot me.


Well, that is three of us that it has happened to. We uses to have what they called a blue law here in Danville, where most stores couldn't open on Sundays and my wife and I went to Greensboro, N.C. with my sister & BIL, with my daughter and son to do some shopping on a Sunday and came back through Reidsville to eat at a restaurant we all liked and as Dave stopped to turn into the driveway out of nowhere about a dozen sheriffs, city police and N.C. State Police surrounded us and in maybe two seconds all the door were open and we were all looking at guns. 
In another few seconds we were apologized to and they were all gone as fast as they came. 
My wife and I were in the back captains chairs and here Dave and I set, right in the middle of the road, just setting there looking at each other like, "Hey, what the heck just happened?"

I'll tell ya, I learned a long time ago to respect an officer when you are talking to one, or at least act as if you do unless you are clearly in the right and then you're still better off to keep your mouth shut. 
One thing that gets me about this one is Browns buddy said that they cop grabbed Brown and was trying to pull him into the car by his neck. 
What kind of an idiot would believe that lie?? 
Brown had shoved the cop into the car and was beating him is what was going on and all those danged, uh, black rioters know the truth.
They are just using this crap to do what they love to do. Act like themselves. 

Godspeed

Ranger


----------



## MoonRiver

kasilofhome said:


> Blaming events on racism is the straw man argument used to excuse bad behavior and personal responsibility, to avoid consequences, and to maintain use of a victim card.
> 
> The dead man if it is true that he was a thief,bully,and violent despite being male, despite being dark, despite being a young adult it would be better to accept that his actions, character, and life choices are why he is dead.
> 
> Perhaps focusing on his behavior and the results of his choice....dying just might serve to teach others that there is a better choice in life to make.
> 
> Thugs come in all sizes,sexes, incomes, races, colors, education ....it clearly seems that it was his choices that lead to his death not his race ...race is used to avoid the harsh reality.
> 
> I think his family is hurting by the pain his choices caused them. It is easier to blame any one but those we love.
> 
> Now, we only have a bit of the info ....and info is not all in but I am bashing my statements on the video, his current rap sheet, and what the autopsy has revealed.


Would you like to be a young African American man in Ferguson, MO?


----------



## Old Vet

BadFordRanger said:


> Well, that is three of us that it has happened to. We uses to have what they called a blue law here in Danville, where most stores couldn't open on Sundays and my wife and I went to Greensboro, N.C. with my sister & BIL, with my daughter and son to do some shopping on a Sunday and came back through Reidsville to eat at a restaurant we all liked and as Dave stopped to turn into the driveway out of nowhere about a dozen sheriffs, city police and N.C. State Police surrounded us and in maybe two seconds all the door were open and we were all looking at guns.
> In another few seconds we were apologized to and they were all gone as fast as they came.
> My wife and I were in the back captains chairs and here Dave and I set, right in the middle of the road, just setting there looking at each other like, "Hey, what the heck just happened?"
> 
> I'll tell ya, I learned a long time ago to respect an officer when you are talking to one, or at least act as if you do unless you are clearly in the right and then you're still better off to keep your mouth shut.
> One thing that gets me about this one is Browns buddy said that they cop grabbed Brown and was trying to pull him into the car by his neck.
> What kind of an idiot would believe that lie??
> Brown had shoved the cop into the car and was beating him is what was going on and all those danged, uh, black rioters know the truth.
> They are just using this crap to do what they love to do. Act like themselves.
> 
> Godspeed
> 
> Ranger


There are more than you think. I was stopped by two car loads of cops. It was a felony stop. Once I was handcuffed and put in the car they told me it was about a rape. The investigator came out and cleared me. She described the suspect and the pickup truck he was driving and I told her where to find him.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> Would you like to be a young African American man in Ferguson, MO?


I know you are meaning to go somewhere with this but, outside it being a leading question, it is not clear.


----------



## Patchouli

mnn2501 said:


> Unlike these animals, the Boston Tea Party didn't go around looting and burning businesses having nothing to do with the Tea Tax.


Yeah because it was the King who owned that ship and all the tea on it.....

(It wasn't by the way)


----------



## Patchouli

haypoint said:


> And so goes the circle. Black communities grow. Violence grows with it. Employers are subject to violence and move away. Unemployment grows. Poverty follows. Violence grows. To maintain civility, police enforce laws, protect the victims. People go to prison, resentment grows. From their perspective, there are no opportunities for them, while the White folk out in the suburbs drive BMWs. Getting an education is a sell out, Uncle Tom. Work? Work is for fools. The focus for many Black youth is to start a record label, be a NBA star, run a big time Mafia style drug operation or get a bunch of hoes in your stable. Many don't even know anyone that has held a job or has a Bank account. Party Stores all advertise, "Liquor, Lotto, Check Cashing". What more do you need?
> If you put on a pair of gloves and killed someone, then later all your friends said you weren't there and you put on dry latex gloves and show folks that you can't get those same gloves on, then you didn't do it.
> When I worked in a prison, I'd often ask prisoners why they were in prison. "I got caught robbing a store." "I got caught stealing a car." "I got caught selling drugs." Finally, I began to hear what they were saying. The reason they were in prison was not because they robbed, stole or sold drugs. It wasn't because of their actions. It was what the police did, what the courts did. Everything would be fine if the police hadn't caught them. The focus is on the police action.
> 
> Please note that my first hand experiences both in living in the Murder Capital and supervising thousands of convicted felons from the Murder Capital may differ sharply with your views and experiences.


Did it ever occur to you that maybe the fact that all the black people you know were people you were guarding in prison might have skewed your view just a bit? Because you have an amazingly skewed view even for this crowd. Here's a thought you can roll around for a bit: why do you think such a large percentage of the prison population you worked with was black? Why so few whites?


----------



## JeffreyD

Patchouli said:


> Did it ever occur to you that maybe the fact that all the black people you know were people you were guarding in prison might have skewed your view just a bit? Because you have an amazingly skewed view even for this crowd. Here's a thought you can roll around for a bit: why do you think such a large percentage of the prison population you worked with was black? Why so few whites?


Because they've become victims of the oppressive democrats that have ruined their communities! They've been taught to take what they want instead of working for it, so they end up in prison. I keep hearing them say that prison isn't so bad! (as long as your not in Arizona)

What's your answer?


----------



## TraderBob

Patchouli said:


> why do you think such a large percentage of the prison population you worked with was black? Why so few whites?


Maybe because a minority of the population commit the majority of violent crime?


----------



## kasilofhome

MoonRiver said:


> Would you like to be a young African American man in Ferguson, MO?



To me, it would not matter. 

Why the focus on race.....do you only see that and not character.
You may be a racist or sexist if that is how you see people. Racist come in all races,sizes,economic classes,geo areas, educational levels.

Racist miss out on so much because they value something that is worthless ...they value a shell of a human and only see the difference never that what we all have in common.

Get over it your skin is not all there is for anyone. Stop the game of division over looks and value behavior.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Patchouli said:


> why do you think such a large percentage of the prison population you worked with was black? Why so few whites?


Oh, that's easy, cause most cops are white, and they are all racist and juat want to drag down the black man......


Yes, that was sarcasm.
I would guess the honest answer is, if mote blacks are in a prticular prison, it is likely that more blacks committed crimes to get put in that prison. On the flip side, im sure there are ptisons where the majority are white, or Latino. Fact is fact, people of any race can commit crimes. And people from any race can rise above poverty, rise above violence, and live a productive life free of criminal activity.


----------



## mmoetc

MoonRiver said:


> Would you like to be a young African American man in Ferguson, MO?


Or a middle aged one?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...beating-charging-bleeding-THEIR-uniforms.html


----------



## MoonRiver

kasilofhome said:


> To me, it would not matter.
> 
> Why the focus on race.....do you only see that and not character.
> You may be a racist or sexist if that is how you see people. Racist come in all races,sizes,economic classes,geo areas, educational levels.
> 
> Racist miss out on so much because they value something that is worthless ...they value a shell of a human and only see the difference never that what we all have in common.
> 
> Get over it your skin is not all there is for anyone. Stop the game of division over looks and value behavior.


I never focus on race. I am a minority of 1 and believe everyone else is as well. But I do look at culture. Race and culture are 2 different things.

There are social structures in the US that still make it more difficult for an African American child to grow up and be successful than for a white child. Bad schools, drugs, prostitution, gun crimes, gangs, high unemployment rates, and a culture of despair are hard to overcome. The black parents have all these challenges on top of the same challenges white parents have.

When you read about a black child that becomes a great success like Herman Cain, Dr Carson, Colin Powell, etc, they almost always talk about a heroic mother or grandmother. Well, all kids don't have a heroic mother or grandmother. 

When I was 12, we moved to a small town in Louisiana. Blacks on 1 side of the railroad tracks and whites on the other. Would I have been as successful as I am if I was born black and had to live on the "other" side of the tracks?

It's not the kids fault if their mother is on drugs or is rarely home because she is working to raise her kids by herself. It's not the kids fault if they have bad teachers and the schools are riddled with drugs. It's not the kids fault if there is no public library or access to computers in their neighborhood. It's not the kids fault if there are no safe playgrounds in the neighborhood. It's not the kids fault. 

Implying I am racist is unacceptable.

I simply asked this question



> Would you like to be a young African American man in Ferguson, MO?


To go from that to a rant on race is strange.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Bad social communities are, in fact, not the childrens fault, but they are the fault of the community as a whole. Any community can become a cespool of drugs, prostitution, crime, etc. But its up to the members of a community to decide how to handle obstacles when they first arrise.
Do we turn our backs and ignore the problems until they have completely engulfed us, or do we take a stand against the degredation of society?


----------



## MoonRiver

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> Bad social communities are, in fact, not the childrens fault, but they are the fault of the community as a whole. Any community can become a cespool of drugs, prostitution, crime, etc. But its up to the members of a community to decide how to handle obstacles when they first arrise.
> Do we turn our backs and ignore the problems until they have completely engulfed us, or do we take a stand against the degredation of society?


I can argue that drugs and drug gangs are a failure of federal, local, and state governments, not the local community. I can argue that bad schools are a failure of local, state, and federal governments, not the local community. I can argue that crime is a result of high unemployment, failed schools, failing social structures such as churches, and failure of good policing policies.

Government policies are at the core of social problems in the black community. These problems were created over 50 years of misdirected policies which made it difficult for people to move into the middle class. The government allowed manufacturing jobs to move to Mexico which had been the best vehicle for many Americans to move into the middle class.

These communities will never succeed without changes in government policies and programs to encourage achievement rather than penalize it.


----------



## poppy

Patchouli said:


> Did it ever occur to you that maybe the fact that all the black people you know were people you were guarding in prison might have skewed your view just a bit? Because you have an amazingly skewed view even for this crowd. Here's a thought you can roll around for a bit: why do you think such a large percentage of the prison population you worked with was black? Why so few whites?


Consider this, if possible. Every weekend several people die and many more are wounded in Chicago. What percentage of the shooters would you say are black? I'll wager it's at least 95%. What percentage of robberies in Illinois would you guess are committed by blacks? I'll wager it is at least 90%. Can you understand the concept that when the perpetrators of these crimes are caught and prosecuted, the end result is an overwhelmingly black prison population in Illinois?


----------



## where I want to

Is blaming another race for personal failures racist? The assumption that racism causes criminal behavior would mean that criminal behavior would be the same in all but the dominate race. 
This is a useless question because racism and race itself is intrinsic in all humans and therefore is a factor everyone has to deal with. There is a reason why regional racial differences persist and it is not proximity. It is choice. Maybe on a genetic level but it is choice. People mostly choose similar partners, people who look and act like they do.
Mixing races at both a cultural and personal level creates a lively culture but an unstable one. For good and evil.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Hogwash! Government intervention is not the answer, its part of the problem. Make people take responsibility for their actions and life choices, that is what will ultumately encite change in a community.


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> Is blaming another race for personal failures racist? The assumption that racism causes criminal behavior would mean that criminal behavior would be the same in all but the dominate race.
> This is a useless question because racism and race itself is intrinsic in all humans and therefore is a factor everyone has to deal with. There is a reason why regional racial differences persist and it is not proximity. It is choice. Maybe on a genetic level but it is choice. People mostly choose similar partners, people who look and act like they do.
> Mixing races at both a cultural and personal level creates a lively culture but an unstable one. For good and evil.


I bet you can't find a single creditable study that backs any of that up.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> I bet you can't find a single creditable study that backs any of that up.


Nor the opposite- that is why I said I wondered about it. If you can make stuff up, you shouldn't complain about others doing the same.


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> Nor the opposite- that is why I said I wondered about it. If you can make stuff up, you shouldn't complain about others doing the same.


I didn't make up anything. I happen to have education and experience in this area. Many years ago, I quit my job as a social worker because government programs were negatively impacting the people they were supposed to be helping. I also saw, and was guilty myself, of a mentality of "helping them", as if they weren't capable of helping themselves. Government programs were intended to be an aid, not a crutch.

Your quote below was said as a statement, not as I wonder.



> Mixing races at both a cultural and personal level creates a lively culture but an unstable one.


----------



## kasilofhome

Why avoid personal responsibility as the cause and the ultimate solution. But no, play the blame game, does not help a single person.


----------



## MoonRiver

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> Hogwash! Government intervention is not the answer, its part of the problem. Make people take responsibility for their actions and life choices, that is what will ultumately encite change in a community.


You misunderstood my points. Government intervention CAUSED the problem.

But since government has taken on the role of educator, protector, enforcer, job creator, morality police, etc, they need to accept responsibility for the failed system they created. Let me put it this way - African Americans would be much better off today if the Great Society legislation had never been passed.


----------



## kasilofhome

Everyone has shortcomings and obstacles to overcome some are blind some can't type or are burnt or are poor or ugly or in a wheelchair but it is the mental wheelchair we put themselves in that we will never overcome. Race sex age etc. What does your wheelchair look like.


----------



## MoonRiver

kasilofhome said:


> Why avoid personal responsibility as the cause and the ultimate solution. But no, play the blame game, does not help a single person.


It's like playing a game of football.

1) There are the rules of the game which is what you are arguing.

2) There are also salary caps, max number of players, how the draft takes place, minimum salary, rules for trading players, injured reserve, practice, and on and on.

I'm arguing that #2 has to take place before #1 can happen. 

Before you can expect people to play by the rules, you have to create the social infrastructure that supports those rules.

An analogy would be to take the 1st 22 illegal immigrants you can find, teach them the rules of football, and send them out this Saturday to play Alabama. Will they lose by 200 points because they didn't accept personal responsibility or because they had never learned the necessary skills?


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> I didn't make up anything. I happen to have education and experience in this area. Many years ago, I quit my job as a social worker because government programs were negatively impacting the people they were supposed to be helping. I also saw, and was guilty myself, of a mentality of "helping them", as if they weren't capable of helping themselves. Government programs were intended to be an aid, not a crutch.
> 
> Your quote below was said as a statement, not as I wonder.


And you think otherwise? Please provide your studies of long term stablity in mixed race cultures. If that sounds like nonsense it's because it is. 

Attempting to suppress speculation and thought is not the same as winning a debate.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> It's like playing a game of football.
> 
> 1) There are the rules of the game which is what you are arguing.
> 
> 2) There are also salary caps, max number of players, how the draft takes place, minimum salary, rules for trading players, injured reserve, practice, and on and on.
> 
> I'm arguing that #2 has to take place before #1 can happen.
> 
> Before you can expect people to play by the rules, you have to create the social infrastructure that supports those rules.
> 
> An analogy would be to take the 1st 22 illegal immigrants you can find, teach them the rules of football, and send them out this Saturday to play Alabama. Will they lose by 200 points because they didn't accept personal responsibility or because they had never learned the necessary skills?


This is getting fuzzier and fuzzier. Are you saying people born into the 'game' must be taught the rules? I have a sneaking suspicion that most people who are unsuccessful at the 'game' (odd term that) will tell you the game is either fixed or wrong rather than accept they lost because they don't know the rules. 
Much less they fail because of their personal attributes.

It seems that you are suggesting that, if the world would set up each human in the same business, with the same resources, that they would all be equally proftable. 

I would suggest that not even sensible. It is clear that people literally just arrived without anything to their name have made great successes for themselves.


----------



## kasilofhome

1. Shocker, illegal anything should not be free to play. Why is a criminal of immigration granted unequal privileges over other crimes?


----------



## haypoint

Patchouli said:


> Did it ever occur to you that maybe the fact that all the black people you know were people you were guarding in prison might have skewed your view just a bit? Because you have an amazingly skewed view even for this crowd. Here's a thought you can roll around for a bit: why do you think such a large percentage of the prison population you worked with was black? Why so few whites?


I admitted that my experiences may differ from yours. But, I also had a first hand look at what you can only guess about. 
A white youth caught breaking into a house in rural Michigan faces a much greater chance of getting a prison sentence than an urban Black youth. Because crime levels are so low in rural Michigan, a B&E looms large, while in a big city, filled with murders and kidnapping, a B&E isn't a big deal. Even with this imbalance, Black youth commit most of the felonies in Michigan. Criminal prosecution is difficult because of the traditional view that it is us (Blacks) against them (cops, white people, civilization) and witnesses remain silent.
Those that can be proven guilty often enough to get a prison sentence, don't view prison the same way other people do. There is no shame. It is a time out from a life that was going no where anyway. A place to reunite with guys you grew up with, make new friendships, a place that provides a comfortable place to sleep, free food, recreation, a place to practice your Black Muslim religion (MSTofA, NOI), whatever, in an environment free from drive-by shootings.

I didn't see the shooting in Ferguson. None of us did. All we can do is speculate. Based on my experiences, I predict that all the cell phone video that shows Brown as the aggressor, attacking the cop, will be suppressed by the Black community. The only way to appease the Black public is to charge the cop. It will be up to his lawyers to prove him innocent, not the other way around which our system requires.
The Black police Chief said, "If I could have hired more Blacks, I would have. If a Black person showed some interest, I'd be all over that. Just the Blacks in this community don't want to be cops. There is a negative mindset against the police."
But, after this, Ferguson will get Black cops, even if they have to commute from Jamaica.


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> This is getting fuzzier and fuzzier. Are you saying people born into the 'game' must be taught the rules? I have a sneaking suspicion that most people who are unsuccessful at the 'game' (odd term that) will tell you the game is either fixed or wrong rather than accept they lost because they don't know the rules.
> Much less they fail because of their personal attributes.
> 
> It seems that you are suggesting that, if the world would set up each human in the same business, with the same resources, that they would all be equally proftable.
> 
> I would suggest that not even sensible. It is clear that people literally just arrived without anything to their name have made great successes for themselves.


There is no way you could come to those conclusions from what I said, so I have to assume you are trying to avoid addressing my points.

2 kids
Both 6 years old
1 goes to a poor school in a bad neighborhood and the other goes to a good school in the suburbs
1 has both a father and mother at home and the other just has a mother
1 has age appropriate books in the home and the other doesn't
1 had a bedtime story read to them at night when they were younger, the other didn't
1 is in the cub scouts, the other isn't
1 plays organized baseball and soccer and the other doesn't
1 is in the school chorus and the other isn't
1 has a computer and the other doesn't
1 goes to Sunday school and the other doesn't

Now you tell me. Does it matter which kid is white and which is black? Or are you saying the white kid will do better and behave better regardless of their early childhood environment?


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> There is no way you could come to those conclusions from what I said, so I have to assume you are trying to avoid addressing my points.
> 
> 2 kids
> Both 6 years old
> 1 goes to a poor school in a bad neighborhood and the other goes to a good school in the suburbs
> 1 has both a father and mother at home and the other just has a mother
> 1 has age appropriate books in the home and the other doesn't
> 1 had a bedtime story read to them at night when they were younger, the other didn't
> 1 is in the cub scouts, the other isn't
> 1 plays organized baseball and soccer and the other doesn't
> 1 is in the school chorus and the other isn't
> 1 has a computer and the other doesn't
> 1 goes to Sunday school and the other doesn't
> 
> Now you tell me. Does it matter which kid is white and which is black? Or are you saying the white kid will do better and behave better regardless of their early childhood environment?


No. If an immigrant comes into the country barely able to read or write his own language much less English, takes himself to all the free education that is available here, works at menial jobs, builds a stakes to start a business then uses those profits to send his kids off to college, doesn't that indicate that there are more important factors in play than any of the ones you list?
There are also plenty of examples of the opposite, where a person has all those advantages, yet makes poor choices and ends up in prison.


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> No. If an immigrant comes into the country barely able to read or write his own language much less English, takes himself to all the free education that is available here, works at menial jobs, builds a stakes to start a business then uses those profits to send his kids off to college, doesn't that indicate that there are more important factors in play than any of the ones you list?
> There are also plenty of examples of the opposite, where a person has all those advantages, yet makes poor choices and ends up in prison.


Once again, has nothing to do with what I posted.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> Once again, has nothing to do with what I posted.


Nonsense, I answered it directly. But to make it totally clear- having all the things you mention- the direct correlation to your list- does not guarantee success nor does their absence guarantee failure. So, there must be factors not involving that list that make the difference.


----------



## Cornhusker

I think the problem lies with people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Obama.
They have black people convinced they are downtrodden, oppressed and disadvantaged.
They create the culture they pretend to abhor, they make a very nice living from it, and will take every opportunity to keep tensions high.
The government hands out money, food, housing, education, all in the name of making a better life for the people, but it's been proven over the years those programs have the opposite effect.
Governments breed poverty, they need to keep a large section of the population poor so they can blame the other guy and get the votes.
It's always the ones who claim to be helping that are causing the problems.
I've always said that if you want to help someone, make them earn their assistance.
Able bodied people should pick up trash off the highways or their own streets, park maintenance, urban renewal projects, etc.
We are paying them anyway, why not let them earn it?
Maybe they will take pride in themselves and their neighborhoods if they have time and sweat invested.
What we are doing now isn't working, it has never worked, but we keep doing it so we can continue to blame the other guy and continue to get the votes.
We need real changes, not the hopey/changey crap we got inflicted with.


----------



## haypoint

MoonRiver said:


> It's like playing a game of football.
> 
> 1) There are the rules of the game which is what you are arguing.
> 
> 2) There are also salary caps, max number of players, how the draft takes place, minimum salary, rules for trading players, injured reserve, practice, and on and on.
> 
> I'm arguing that #2 has to take place before #1 can happen.
> 
> Before you can expect people to play by the rules, you have to create the social infrastructure that supports those rules.
> 
> An analogy would be to take the 1st 22 illegal immigrants you can find, teach them the rules of football, and send them out this Saturday to play Alabama. Will they lose by 200 points because they didn't accept personal responsibility or because they had never learned the necessary skills?


To compare 22 random illegal immigrants playing against professional football players is saying that Blacks are destined to all fail and have no chance of success. 
Two hundred years ago, most rural whites had little better education than Blacks. Most Blacks had equal skillsets, blacksmithing, agriculture, food service, etc. Living conditions were not far apart. Most northern farmers also lived in dirt floor shacks. 
But segregation existed. Some intended to keep Blacks out, some self inflicted. 
Over the past 50 years billions have been poured into the inner cities, providing food, housing, clothing, transportation and education to the non-working equal to many of the nation's working class. LBJ's Great Society failed. Some (not me) have said you can take the Black out of the Ghetto, but you can't take the Ghetto out of the Black. With safe affordable housing, forced integration of schools, the red carpet roll out of affirmative action placing Blacks at the top of the list for advanced education and job opportunities, the number of Black babies being raised by a single parent shot to 75%. The drop out rate surpassed 75% and the prison population stands at 75% Black. I don't know what more the taxpayer can do to help this minority adopt even the most basic parts of a civilized society.


----------



## TripleD

Cornhusker said:


> I think the problem lies with people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Obama.
> They have black people convinced they are downtrodden, oppressed and disadvantaged.
> They create the culture they pretend to abhor, they make a very nice living from it, and will take every opportunity to keep tensions high.
> The government hands out money, food, housing, education, all in the name of making a better life for the people, but it's been proven over the years those programs have the opposite effect.
> Governments breed poverty, they need to keep a large section of the population poor so they can blame the other guy and get the votes.
> It's always the ones who claim to be helping that are causing the problems.
> I've always said that if you want to help someone, make them earn their assistance.
> Able bodied people should pick up trash off the highways or their own streets, park maintenance, urban renewal projects, etc.
> We are paying them anyway, why not let them earn it?
> Maybe they will take pride in themselves and their neighborhoods if they have time and sweat invested.
> What we are doing now isn't working, it has never worked, but we keep doing it so we can continue to blame the other guy and continue to get the votes.
> We need real changes, not the hopey/changey crap we got inflicted with.


 Post of the day from me!!!!!:happy2:


----------



## where I want to

I don't think that people can be forced to work if their lives are not at risk if they don't. It takes too much effort to make them even show up.
But society can put pressure on the uncommitted by honoring work publicly and treating working people with respect while publicly despising the lack of a good work ethic and only grudgingly providing for those who choose that.
A person who works resonably diligently ought to be able to feel pride in that, assured it makes him a better person than his non-working or criminal brethren, rather than feel the government looks at him as a cash cow to support those who don't work while trying to shovel a load of guilt onto him for their failure.
But what we have going on is the exact opposite- where a person who does not work is encouraged to have a good opinion of himself anyway by being repeatedly told his lack of success is society's fault.


----------



## kasilofhome

MoonRiver said:


> There is no way you could come to those conclusions from what I said, so I have to assume you are trying to avoid addressing my points.
> 
> 2 kids
> Both 6 years old
> 1 goes to a poor school in a bad neighborhood and the other goes to a good school in the suburbs
> 
> Lack of responsibility in the community for lack of involvement
> 
> 1 has both a father and mother at home and the other just has a mother
> 
> Mute point as death of a parent, wars, work, has happened thru out mankind ..
> 
> 1 has age appropriate books in the home and the other doesn't
> 
> Many illiterate parents have raised children to be responsible for generations.
> 
> 1 had a bedtime story read to them at night when they were younger, the other didn't
> 
> How responsible parents are in being parents will matter more than fairy tales at night. Step one challenge those who are removing parental rights.
> 
> 1 is in the cub scouts, the other isn't
> 
> Scouting has a goal of teaching responsibility but there are other methods a parents can use.
> 
> 1 plays organized baseball and soccer and the other doesn't
> 
> Sports can teach responsibility esp when consequence are valid. Yep, not everyone will earn a reward due to different outcomes.
> 
> 1 is in the school chorus and the other isn't
> 
> Here is a question what is the non chorus kid doing if not in chorus....mowing lawns to pay for higher ed, doing family chores. Going to speech therapy. How about reading a book.
> 
> 
> 1 has a computer and the other doesn't
> 
> So, I do not have a bed. Nor did my son till two years ago I still sleep on a sleeping bag on a concrete floor. We would not choose of violating other people constitutional rights. But rather we choose to improving our lot in life by working on needs before wants. We worked around not having computers and lack on internet when needs dictated money go elsewhere
> 
> Oh George Washington and Steve job did not ever or always have a computer.
> 
> 1 goes to Sunday school and the other doesn't
> 
> Faiths teach responsibility
> 
> Now you tell me. Does it matter which kid is white and which is black? Or are you saying the white kid will do better and behave better regardless of their early childhood environment?



Responceablity is the key


----------



## Patchouli

haypoint said:


> I admitted that my experiences may differ from yours. But, I also had a first hand look at what you can only guess about.
> A white youth caught breaking into a house in rural Michigan faces a much greater chance of getting a prison sentence than an urban Black youth. Because crime levels are so low in rural Michigan, a B&E looms large, while in a big city, filled with murders and kidnapping, a B&E isn't a big deal. Even with this imbalance, Black youth commit most of the felonies in Michigan. Criminal prosecution is difficult because of the traditional view that it is us (Blacks) against them (cops, white people, civilization) and witnesses remain silent.
> Those that can be proven guilty often enough to get a prison sentence, don't view prison the same way other people do. There is no shame. It is a time out from a life that was going no where anyway. A place to reunite with guys you grew up with, make new friendships, a place that provides a comfortable place to sleep, free food, recreation, a place to practice your Black Muslim religion (MSTofA, NOI), whatever, in an environment free from drive-by shootings.
> 
> I didn't see the shooting in Ferguson. None of us did. All we can do is speculate. Based on my experiences, I predict that all the cell phone video that shows Brown as the aggressor, attacking the cop, will be suppressed by the Black community. The only way to appease the Black public is to charge the cop. It will be up to his lawyers to prove him innocent, not the other way around which our system requires.
> The Black police Chief said, "If I could have hired more Blacks, I would have. If a Black person showed some interest, I'd be all over that. Just the Blacks in this community don't want to be cops. There is a negative mindset against the police."
> But, after this, Ferguson will get Black cops, even if they have to commute from Jamaica.


Let's try a more realistic analogy shall we? Let's take 2 young males one white and one black both with marijuana in their pockets. First which one is more likely to get stopped and randomly frisked? That would be the black kid. But let's say we have a particularly egalitarian police officer and he stops both and finds the pot on both. What then? Well the white kid's parents will most likely hire him a good lawyer and he will get a slap on the wrist. The black kid's parents may not have the money for that so he gets a public defender who pleads out for him and he gets jail time. He is now essentially screwed for the rest of his life because on top of the fact that he is far more likely to get pulled over and searched just because he is black he also now has a drug charge on his record which means lazy cops wil peg him for anything they can. 

A few stats to back that up: 



> Ferguson police are much more likely to stop, search and arrest African-American drivers than white ones. Last year, blacks, who make up a little less than two-thirds of the driving-age population in the North County city, accounted for 86 percent of all stops. When stopped, they were almost twice as likely to be searched as whites and twice as likely to be arrested, though police were less likely to find contraband on them.


http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_012cf751-9cec-5733-8025-09e03abb9d86.html



> One in every three black males born today can expect to go to prison at some point in their life, compared with one in every six Latino males, and one in every 17 white males, if current incarceration trends continue.
> These are among the many pieces of evidence cited by the Sentencing Project, a Washington, D.C.-based group that advocates for prison reform, in a report on the staggering racial disparities that permeate the American criminal justice system.
> The report was submitted to the U.N. Human Rights Committee this week in advance of the U.N.âs review of American compliance with the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights later this month. It argues that racial disparity pervades âevery stage of the United States criminal justice system, from arrest to trial to sentencing.â
> âRacial minorities are more likely than white Americans to be arrested,â the report explains. âOnce arrested, they are more likely to be convicted; and once convicted, they are more likely to face stiff sentences.â


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/04/racial-disparities-criminal-justice_n_4045144.html


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> Nonsense, I answered it directly. But to make it totally clear- having all the things you mention- the direct correlation to your list- does not guarantee success nor does their absence guarantee failure. So, there must be factors not involving that list that make the difference.


No, there are other factors that MAY make a difference. 

We know there are some environmental factors that are negative and some that are positive. We also know that being raised in a mostly positive environment is more likely to lead to success than a mostly negative environment. 

We also know that a super mom or grandmom (or dad, or older brother/sister, or mentor) can compensate for some of the negative factors. And we even know that for a few individuals, they somehow find the will to succeed with almost everything going against them. But these are the exceptions, not the rule.

It's like genes (analogy). Just because you have a gene that makes it likely you will get cancer, it is possible by changing your environment to turn the gene off. I believe that by changing the environment in poor and impoverished neighborhoods, it just might turn some of the negative factors off, allowing more to become successful.

And before I get the government handout BS, that's not what I am talking about. For example, look at what Rudy Giuliani accomplished in NYC with his broken window policy. 

Address problems when they are small. Don't make excuses. Fire government employees that are incompetent. Partner with neighborhood leaders. Have schools that work even if means complete privatization. Have tax relief to get businesses to open in high unemployment areas.


----------



## kasilofhome

White kids parents might not have money...I don't

Whitney me has gotten pulled over lots of times ....three times in the last year
At sunsets my headlights were not turned on
I suspiciously pulled over with a cop car behind me
I got off and parked in a pull of to check to see if I had bars on my phone

Fyi bill aires is doing pretty good for himself with is criminal record. Oh he's white


----------



## where I want to

Patchouli said:


> Let's try a more realistic analogy shall we? Let's take 2 young males one white and one black both with marijuana in their pockets. First which one is more likely to get stopped and randomly frisked? That would be the black kid. But let's say we have a particularly egalitarian police officer and he stops both and finds the pot on both. What then? Well the white kid's parents will most likely hire him a good lawyer and he will get a slap on the wrist. The black kid's parents may not have the money for that so he gets a public defender who pleads out for him and he gets jail time. He is now essentially screwed for the rest of his life because on top of the fact that he is far more likely to get pulled over and searched just because he is black he also now has a drug charge on his record which means lazy cops wil peg him for anything they can.
> 
> A few stats to back that up:
> 
> http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_012cf751-9cec-5733-8025-09e03abb9d86.html
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/04/racial-disparities-criminal-justice_n_4045144.html


But all those stats do not answer why. You assume that it is simply an unreasoning dislike based on race. But maybe it has to do with past experiences, language used indicating cooperation, clothes, etc. Maybe many black people expect racism is to blame for being stopped no matter what they were actually doing, so behave with contempt in a situation where that is less than useful. Maybe being aggressive with police has a social cache.
Or maybe all the lack of advantages you insist is critical in other posts really does lead to more criminal behavior.
As to poverty leading to public defenders and subsequent jail, that would be true for poor of other races too.


----------



## MoonRiver

> Officer Darren Wilson suffered facial fractures during his confrontation with deceased 18 year-old Michael Brown


http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...-eye-socket-during-encounter-with-mike-brown/


----------



## haypoint

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTUqOBJsRdg[/ame]

This is a perspective you won't see on the NEWS or from Al Sharpton. Lots of truth, IMHO.


----------



## Patchouli

where I want to said:


> But all those stats do not answer why. You assume that it is simply an unreasoning dislike based on race. But maybe it has to do with past experiences, language used indicating cooperation, clothes, etc. Maybe many black people expect racism is to blame for being stopped no matter what they were actually doing, so behave with contempt in a situation where that is less than useful. Maybe being aggressive with police has a social cache.
> Or maybe all the lack of advantages you insist is critical in other posts really does lead to more criminal behavior.
> As to poverty leading to public defenders and subsequent jail, that would be true for poor of other races too.


Let's take one thing: black males are far more likely to be stopped by police in the first place. Why? How can a police officer tell just from a car driving down a street that there are potential criminals in it?


----------



## where I want to

Patchouli said:


> Let's take one thing: black males are far more likely to be stopped by police in the first place. Why? How can a police officer tell just from a car driving down a street that there are potential criminals in it?


The finger out the window as the tires squeal as they take off? The stolen license plates? The dodging around the block at the sight of the police car?
Maybe the expectation feeds the reality- self fulfilling prophecy? 
Dragging racism as the primary reason for everything is at best a huge oversimplification. Especially when assuming that racism is a one way street.


----------



## kasilofhome

Getting rid of victim cards and excuses will lend itself to respectability.
Stopping ones self from playing the being a fool by being self responsible.

Why is responsibility avoided as a rational step towards a better life is it pure laziness to shift blame to anything else?


----------



## haypoint

Last year, my plane flight was delayed. The plane arrived at midnight. I had 200 miles to drive. Half way home, the police pulled me over on a lonely part of the expressway at 230am because my license plate light was out. I think they just did it because I'm white and cops hate white people. 

It is such an old song, that cops target Blacks. I'm sick of the myth. Police target suspicious behavior. Since 90% of all car thefts in Hollywood are by young Black men, I'm sorry, Will Smith, that you get stopped for speeding more often than Martha Stewart. Racial profiling? Heck yes. 

In raising my own two boys, when they were misbehaving, the oldest went to his room when I told them. The youngest wanted to protest, refuse, complain. He ended up with a spanking in addition to going to his room. Over their childhood, the youngest got harsher treatment for similar "crimes" as a result of his refusal to comply with authority. Do you see an analogy?
If you dress like a criminal, dark loose fitting clothes, face hidden, aggressive behavior, expect to be questioned like a criminal.
Attack a store owner, shove him around, then when the cops want you out of the street, attack, shove around the police, hit the cops in the face, you lose the rights to "Gentle Giant" and become criminal. In this case dead criminal.


----------



## kasilofhome

Hay we do not agree on many subjects but you clearly take responsibility for being a parent. And in setting standards ...life has consequences.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

MoonRiver said:


> There is no way you could come to those conclusions from what I said, so I have to assume you are trying to avoid addressing my points.
> 
> 2 kids
> Both 6 years old
> 1 goes to a poor school in a bad neighborhood and the other goes to a good school in the suburbs
> 1 has both a father and mother at home and the other just has a mother
> 1 has age appropriate books in the home and the other doesn't
> 1 had a bedtime story read to them at night when they were younger, the other didn't
> 1 is in the cub scouts, the other isn't
> 1 plays organized baseball and soccer and the other doesn't
> 1 is in the school chorus and the other isn't
> 1 has a computer and the other doesn't
> 1 goes to Sunday school and the other doesn't
> 
> Now you tell me. Does it matter which kid is white and which is black? Or are you saying the white kid will do better and behave better regardless of their early childhood environment?


And all of the downfalls of kid #2 that you listed are 100% the fault of his or her parents.
If you don't have good schools in your neighborhood, move.
If there arent community activities for kids in your neighborhood, start some.
If you aren't married and don't have resources in place to raise a child, keep your legs closed.


----------



## haypoint

kasilofhome said:


> Getting rid of victim cards and excuses will lend itself to respectability.
> Stopping ones self from playing the being a fool by being self responsible.
> 
> Why is responsibility avoided as a rational step towards a better life is it pure laziness to shift blame to anything else?


Within this diverse Black society, there is instilled a sense that education does not equal opportunity. So, education is just playing the white guy's game. Shun education. 
If the cat scratches the screen door every time she wants in or out and you jump up to let her in or out, you have trained the cat to ruin the door.
If a group cries injustice and they get away with crimes, what do you teach? If you pay for a person's food and housing for 50 years, can you expect them to be thankful to the taxpayer? If they show a lack of education and you give them suburban schools and college scholarships, will they be better educated? Apparently not. If complaining, blaming white people, gets you more food stamps, more recreation areas, better housing, a cell phone and put at the top of the hiring lists, will they stop? Apparently not.


----------



## poppy

Patchouli said:


> Why? How can a police officer tell just from a car driving down a street that there are potential criminals in it?


Get real. It is because young black males are potential criminals. Do you even have an idea of the number of crimes committed by young black males in inner cities on a daily basis? It isn't racial at all. It is reality. Black women driving normally are not suspicious targets for police. Neither are older black men. If it were racial, they would target all blacks. It is identical to Muslim terrorists in that regard. It is young Muslim males who commit the lion's share of terrorism.


----------



## KentuckyDreamer

MoonRiver said:


> No, there are other factors that MAY make a difference.
> 
> We know there are some environmental factors that are negative and some that are positive. We also know that being raised in a mostly positive environment is more likely to lead to success than a mostly negative environment.
> 
> We also know that a super mom or grandmom (or dad, or older brother/sister, or mentor) can compensate for some of the negative factors. And we even know that for a few individuals, they somehow find the will to succeed with almost everything going against them. But these are the exceptions, not the rule.
> 
> It's like genes (analogy). Just because you have a gene that makes it likely you will get cancer, it is possible by changing your environment to turn the gene off. I believe that by changing the environment in poor and impoverished neighborhoods, it just might turn some of the negative factors off, allowing more to become successful.
> 
> And before I get the government handout BS, that's not what I am talking about. For example, look at what Rudy Giuliani accomplished in NYC with his broken window policy.
> 
> Address problems when they are small. Don't make excuses. Fire government employees that are incompetent. Partner with neighborhood leaders. Have schools that work even if means complete privatization. Have tax relief to get businesses to open in high unemployment areas.


 We each view this with our own life experiences; I am one of those "exceptions", so are two of my nieces. Three out of 10. But once we entered college we met with many more of these "exceptions". It's all in where you look. We have plenty in our family that are stopped, beat, tazed...there are days I cannot bare to turn on the news if they are not incarcerated. 

For most of us we strongly resent the excuses. We gave up much of our lives and worked hard to overcome educational, family, and social limitations. We were the ones being laughed at for leaving the house while our families did drugs, etc. We were the ones living the "boring" lives, wearing old clothes, etc. 

To make excuses invalidates our decisions and work. Did we become doctors and lawyers? No, but nurses and social workers, clerks and teachers. 

End of rant...


----------



## kasilofhome

kentuckydreamer said:


> we each view this with our own life experiences; i am one of those "exceptions", so are two of my nieces. Three out of 10. But once we entered college we met with many more of these "exceptions". It's all in where you look. We have plenty in our family that are stopped, beat, tazed...there are days i cannot bare to turn on the news if they are not incarcerated.
> 
> For most of us we strongly resent the excuses. We gave up much of our lives and worked hard to overcome educational, family, and social limitations. We were the ones being laughed at for leaving the house while our families did drugs, etc. We were the ones living the "boring" lives, wearing old clothes, etc.
> 
> To make excuses invalidates our decisions and work. Did we become doctors and lawyers? No, but nurses and social workers, clerks and teachers.
> 
> End of rant...


great post


----------



## haypoint

MoonRiver said:


> There is no way you could come to those conclusions from what I said, so I have to assume you are trying to avoid addressing my points.
> 
> 2 kids
> Both 6 years old
> 1 goes to a poor school in a bad neighborhood and the other goes to a good school in the suburbs
> 1 has both a father and mother at home and the other just has a mother
> 1 has age appropriate books in the home and the other doesn't
> 1 had a bedtime story read to them at night when they were younger, the other didn't
> 1 is in the cub scouts, the other isn't
> 1 plays organized baseball and soccer and the other doesn't
> 1 is in the school chorus and the other isn't
> 1 has a computer and the other doesn't
> 1 goes to Sunday school and the other doesn't
> 
> Now you tell me. Does it matter which kid is white and which is black? Or are you saying the white kid will do better and behave better regardless of their early childhood environment?


 _2 kids
Both 6 years old
1 goes to a poor school in a bad neighborhood and the other goes to a good school in the suburbs. Integrated bussing that put suburban kids in intercity schools and intercity kids in upscale schools allowed education opportunities for communities that didnât care enough to vote for millage elections to support the schools, while putting children from districts that did support their schools into poorer schools. Since many were in federally supported housing, they paid no taxes and any rent increases caused by higher taxes wouldnât impact them. No excuse except a genuine disinterest in education.
1 has both a father and mother at home and the other just has a mother. Since the government has increased âhelpâ, the Black family has fallen apart. Prior to 1968, there were a higher percentage of intact Black families than Whites.
1 has age appropriate books in the home and the other doesn't. Every school has free public libraries. But you have to have an interest in education.
1 had a bedtime story read to them at night when they were younger, the other didn't. Clearly the opportunity is there.
1 is in the cub scouts, the other isn't. The large cities I know have all sorts of youth clubs and recreational opportunities not available to rural white youth.
1 plays organized baseball and soccer and the other doesn't. Again, in higher population centers the opportunities are greater than the rural areas that put such recreational opportunities out of walking distance from such activities.
1 is in the school chorus and the other isn't. Churches in every community.
1 has a computer and the other doesn't. Most libraries have them and many schools supply them.
1 goes to Sunday school and the other doesn't. This is a requirement for success?_


----------



## MO_cows

Patchouli said:


> Let's take one thing: black males are far more likely to be stopped by police in the first place. Why? How can a police officer tell just from a car driving down a street that there are potential criminals in it?


Every car driving down the street has potential criminals in it. I've been pulled over countless times, I guess I should cry "sexism" since I'm a woman. Or maybe I can just accept responsibility that I was speeding, my tags were expired, I had a light bulb burned out, etc.


----------



## mmoetc

http://touch.sun-sentinel.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-81087181/

It's just good to know that there are still neighborhoods where breaking and entering is still a harmless prank.


----------



## SteveD(TX)

poppy said:


> Get real. It is because young black males are potential criminals. Do you even have an idea of the number of crimes committed by young black males in inner cities on a daily basis? It isn't racial at all. It is reality. Black women driving normally are not suspicious targets for police. Neither are older black men. If it were racial, they would target all blacks. It is identical to Muslim terrorists in that regard. It is young Muslim males who commit the lion's share of terrorism.


Of course liberals expect the police to suspect the old woman quietly driving her Buick quietly down the road to be the same potential criminal as a couple of young black men driving down the road in their car with 36" wheels and rap noise blaring so loud you can hear it a mile away. "No profiling!"

right


----------



## poppy

It's totally insane that some people still make excuses for blacks. I saw a black guy in Ferguson talking to a reporter on tv and his mantra was "We want jobs". Why doesn't he contact the Federal Dept. of Jobs? Oh, there isn't one and never has been. Jobs require demand for goods and services. Is Ferguson going to be a better place after all the rioting and looting? No. Will people be more or less inclined to open businesses there creating jobs? Less. So, these looters want something they are working hard to destroy.


----------



## KentuckyDreamer

poppy said:


> It's totally insane that some people still make excuses for blacks. I saw a black guy in Ferguson talking to a reporter on tv and his mantra was "We want jobs". Why doesn't he contact the Federal Dept. of Jobs? Oh, there isn't one and never has been. Jobs require demand for goods and services. Is Ferguson going to be a better place after all the rioting and looting? No. Will people be more or less inclined to open businesses there creating jobs? Less. So, these looters want something they are working hard to destroy.


My family is white...they say the same thing. They do want jobs...on their terms. Arrive when they want, don't work too hard, and pay enough to buy $200 tennis shoes every week so they do not wear the same ones twice. So, no excuses for anyone regardless of race or ethnicity.


----------



## haypoint

poppy said:


> It's totally insane that some people still make excuses for blacks. I saw a black guy in Ferguson talking to a reporter on tv and his mantra was "We want jobs". Why doesn't he contact the Federal Dept. of Jobs? Oh, there isn't one and never has been. Jobs require demand for goods and services. Is Ferguson going to be a better place after all the rioting and looting? No. Will people be more or less inclined to open businesses there creating jobs? Less. So, these looters want something they are working hard to destroy.


According to Ferguson Police Chief, a Black man, he'd love a Black person to interview for a job as a Police Officer. Jobs are available. But they take effort, perhaps education and a willingness to earn a wage.

Business in Detroit tired of the violence and left, mostly to the still thriving suburbs. Is that White people's fault? 
Benton Harbor and St. Joseph, sister cities with equal opportunity. One is mostly white, one mostly Black. Guess which one has the greatest crime and poverty.


----------



## MJsLady

I went to poor schools until my guardian moved up and in Jr high I began going to suburban (ie white) schools. (Until then it was South Saint Louis for me)

I didn't expect special treatment because I was poor. 
This begins with the family. Being a single parent is no excuse for doing a lousy job with your kids. 

Oh so and so needs pity her daddy left, or mom is a single mom so on and so for.
Baloney. 
My mom was a single mom to 3 kids. On top of being a hillbilly with a 3rd grade education. She was a factory worker and worked hard her entire life. She had a massive stroke when I was 10 and died when I was 15. 

Her children did not get special treatment. 

The oldest is an accomplished blues musician, with his own record label.
The next retired last year from a career at a college in administration.
Then there is the screw up, me who only got married and raised 2 successful sons, and now runs a decent Christian woman's website. 

Had my mom be of the oh poor me must have gov help variety I may not be what I am.

Instead mom made it clear the world waits for no one. You want good things, then make good choices. 

Burning down some one else's good thing doesn't make you better than them, it makes you a criminal. 

These looters and so on are criminals and not to be pitied.
The pictures I have seen with their butts hanging out of their clothes, the guy in the video is right, they can't even dress themselves no wonder they have so many issues.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Moonriver,
In your post you forgot to include:

1 uses common sense and has a morality based concience, the other doent give a ......


----------



## MoonRiver

I've never seen so many perfect people in my life. 

I'm feeling inadequate.


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## Dixie Bee Acres

Perfection has nothing to do with it, common sense does, or should I say UNcommon sense.


----------



## poppy

MJsLady said:


> I went to poor schools until my guardian moved up and in Jr high I began going to suburban (ie white) schools. (Until then it was South Saint Louis for me)
> 
> I didn't expect special treatment because I was poor.
> This begins with the family. Being a single parent is no excuse for doing a lousy job with your kids.
> 
> Oh so and so needs pity her daddy left, or mom is a single mom so on and so for.
> Baloney.
> My mom was a single mom to 3 kids. On top of being a hillbilly with a 3rd grade education. She was a factory worker and worked hard her entire life. She had a massive stroke when I was 10 and died when I was 15.
> 
> Her children did not get special treatment.
> 
> The oldest is an accomplished blues musician, with his own record label.
> The next retired last year from a career at a college in administration.
> Then there is the screw up, me who only got married and raised 2 successful sons, and now runs a decent Christian woman's website.
> 
> Had my mom be of the oh poor me must have gov help variety I may not be what I am.
> 
> Instead mom made it clear the world waits for no one. You want good things, then make good choices.
> 
> Burning down some one else's good thing doesn't make you better than them, it makes you a criminal.
> 
> These looters and so on are criminals and not to be pitied.
> The pictures I have seen with their butts hanging out of their clothes, the guy in the video is right, they can't even dress themselves no wonder they have so many issues.


And it is a problem no one can fix but them. It's not white folk's fault black kids are out on the streets until the wee hours of the morning. White folks are not responsible for seeing black kids do their homework and show up for school. It's their culture and their responsibility to change it. We don't have many blacks here if you don't count the local state prison population. Our local blacks are nothing like those of the inner cities. Their parents are good people who work, mostly farmers. Their kids mix right in with other kids and no one thinks a things about it. We have no race issues from either side and it has been that way as far back as I can remember. So, if blacks can live successfully and prosper in areas like ours, why are the inner cities such hell holes? It can't be race or all blacks would be the same. It is the inner city culture nourished by democrats for decades. Pure and simple.


----------



## MJsLady

Poppy I think you make an excellent point. 
In high school I was on a committee that handled student disputes. There really were not many. 
We had a mix of black kids in the school too.
Many of them were my close friends, though one of them, her family chided her for her excellence as trying to be too white... No she just wanted to be a good student and make it into a decent college. She felt she owed that to her parents who had been well educated but left her an orphan. It was her aunts, uncles and cousins who chided her for working so hard to get and stay ahead. They got aid for her being with them and wanted her to keep it up. 

One I caught stealing and I was really upset because he was a really neat guy.

He leaned over and told me now don't you tell or there will be trouble. 
Well, You don't pull a bad stunt around me because if I can't stop you I will find some one who can. I would not let the girl he stole from pay for the item (she was selling candy for a school fundraiser) and I went to the principal. Andre got a 3 day suspension and had to pay for the candy bar. 

If you give in and let folks get away with bad behavior, white or black it sends the wrong message. I have known really decent blacks and mexicans and some really nasty white folks. It isn't race it is, lack of self respect and integrity, as well as a deeply rooted decision to do what is right even if it goes against your desires.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...-eye-socket-during-encounter-with-mike-brown/


I couldn't find any confirmation on the media sites. But it is long past the point where facts effect anything. If it calls into question the protester's beliefs, it will be dismissed as irrelevant. If it turns out to be false, it will live on in the blogs of their opponents.


----------



## KentuckyDreamer

It is not about being perfect...it is working hard. Why invalidate those that do?
My friend's husband lost both his legs in a terrible auto accident. He is black, the person responsible white and very well off.

While he did get a settlement he did not go after blood, he did not go on disability, he did not ask for his student loans to be forgiven. He just will not be a victim. Better man than I. 

Not perfect, just trying not to play the victim card. And not accepting responsibility for those that decided to party while we were getting out.


----------



## MoonRiver

poppy said:


> And it is a problem no one can fix but them. It's not white folk's fault black kids are out on the streets until the wee hours of the morning. White folks are not responsible for seeing black kids do their homework and show up for school. It's their culture and their responsibility to change it. We don't have many blacks here if you don't count the local state prison population. Our local blacks are nothing like those of the inner cities. Their parents are good people who work, mostly farmers. Their kids mix right in with other kids and no one thinks a things about it. We have no race issues from either side and it has been that way as far back as I can remember. So, if blacks can live successfully and prosper in areas like ours, why are the inner cities such hell holes? It can't be race or all blacks would be the same. It is the inner city culture nourished by democrats for decades. Pure and simple.


I'm usually one of the most Conservative posters here, and I believe I am on this issue as well. 

It's not about race. It's about culture. 

The Democrat party has imposed a culture on African Americans that resulted in the breakdown of the African American family. The War on Poverty and the Great Society were government programs that effectively made blacks wards of the state.

Those programs need to be abolished. But simply abolishing them leaves a vacuum, so there needs to be a free market plan that fills the vacuum. The obvious things that need to be addressed are the public school system, welfare, job training, and social structures within the community.

I believe we have an obligation as Americans to fix what we broke.


----------



## MoonRiver

KentuckyDreamer said:


> It is not about being perfect...it is working hard. Why invalidate those that do?
> My friend's husband lost both his legs in a terrible auto accident. He is black, the person responsible white and very well off.
> 
> While he did get a settlement he did not go after blood, he did not go on disability, he did not ask for his student loans to be forgiven. He just will not be a victim. Better man than I.
> 
> Not perfect, just trying not to play the victim card. And not accepting responsibility for those that decided to party while we were getting out.


I'll respond to your post, but it really is for almost everyone that has been posting today.

People who join Homesteading Today are, for the most part, overachievers and individualists. We are not the norm. I'm guessing the average IQ here is well over 110, with quite a few in the 130-140 range. We are not typical.

Yes, we could work our way out of most bad situations we might find ourselves in. But we are not the norm.

The government destroyed the black family and black culture and has a responsibility to try to create an environment where it can be rebuilt.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> I'll respond to your post, but it really is for almost everyone that has been posting today.
> 
> People who join Homesteading Today are, for the most part, overachievers and individualists. We are not the norm. I'm guessing the average IQ here is well over 110, with quite a few in the 130-140 range. We are not typical.
> 
> Yes, we could work our way out of most bad situations we might find ourselves in. But we are not the norm.
> 
> The government destroyed the black family and black culture and has a responsibility to try to create an environment where it can be rebuilt.


But but but..... if the government destroyed the black family with giveaways, did it destroy the white family similarly? If so, then how do you possibly make a "program" to change the beliefs of basically everyone when they seem happy with those beliefs? If people of average or lesser intelligence can't do it themselves, how are you going to make them, the majority, do it?


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## Dixie Bee Acres

Although I can somewhat sorta see where, you are coming from, I still disagree.
If I want something better for my family or for myself, it is up to me.
Not the government, not you, not Santa clause, ME.
Same goes for anyone else, if you want something better, do something about it.
Even the poorest people in the poorest, war torn, third world countries know that.
Want a prime example of proof? Look at the floods of illegals crossing our southern boarder every day. Sure, some might be coming here looking for free handouts, but honestly, the vast majority are coming her, to America, the land of opportunity, to escape a bad situation and try to improve things for themselves and their families.
Why, they know that nothing will improve until they do something to improve things for themselves.


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## KentuckyDreamer

MoonRiver said:


> I'll respond to your post, but it really is for almost everyone that has been posting today.
> 
> People who join Homesteading Today are, for the most part, overachievers and individualists. We are not the norm. I'm guessing the average IQ here is well over 110, with quite a few in the 130-140 range. We are not typical.
> 
> Yes, we could work our way out of most bad situations we might find ourselves in. But we are not the norm.
> 
> The government destroyed the black family and black culture and has a responsibility to try to create an environment where it can be rebuilt.


In all sincerity I say, Interesting. But were we born with these traits, or were they developed as a result of the situation? 

And in my opinion, my family was destroyed by those programs as well. When there were commodities, my mother HAD to get out of bed to stand in line. She HAD to cook with basics, not fast food. Once food stamps and benefits came, that was the end. 

Given the thought processes of my family members and their peers, I just cannot make this a racial issue. Working in protective services my region was about 95% white...same mind set seen in Ferguson.


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## Dixie Bee Acres

Furthermore, growing up, my family (5 kids, single parent) was on food stamps, got energy assistance to help pay the heat bill in winter. Free lunches at school. Free text book rental and mostly free school supplies. 
Yet, look at us now, all have families, some upper middle class, some lower middle class. None in prison, no drug addicts, no alcoholics, etc.


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## poppy

MoonRiver said:


> I'm usually one of the most Conservative posters here, and I believe I am on this issue as well.
> 
> It's not about race. It's about culture.
> 
> The Democrat party has imposed a culture on African Americans that resulted in the breakdown of the African American family. The War on Poverty and the Great Society were government programs that effectively made blacks wards of the state.
> 
> Those programs need to be abolished. But simply abolishing them leaves a vacuum, so there needs to be a free market plan that fills the vacuum. The obvious things that need to be addressed are the public school system, welfare, job training, and social structures within the community.
> 
> I believe we have an obligation as Americans to fix what we broke.


The things you list are the same things we have poured money into for decades and they failed to make a difference. We've tried enterprise zones and similar programs many times. Nothing wrong with the public schools except lack of discipline. Answer me this. Why is it we can open a school from scratch in some rat hole city in Afghanistan for kids, mostly girls, who never had 1 day of education in their lives and teach them to read and write fairly well in 2 years but blacks in the cities are offered a free education through 12th grade but never learn to read or write? There is no way those schools in Afghanistan are as well equipped as US schools in black neighborhoods. The difference is those Afghan students WANT an education and go to school every day, often under threat of being killed.


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## KentuckyDreamer

http://fox2now.com/2014/08/19/officer-involved-shooting-in-north-st-louis-2/

Though one has nothing to do with the other, I just saw a live stream of two men staging a photo. One held his arms up while the other got into position to take a good photo. Others have been putting their arms up.


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## MoonRiver

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> Although I can somewhat sorta see where, you are coming from, I still disagree.
> If I want something better for my family or for myself, it is up to me.
> Not the government, not you, not Santa clause, ME.
> Same goes for anyone else, if you want something better, do something about it.
> Even the poorest people in the poorest, war torn, third world countries know that.
> Want a prime example of proof? Look at the floods of illegals crossing our southern boarder every day. Sure, some might be coming here looking for free handouts, but honestly, the vast majority are coming her, to America, the land of opportunity, to escape a bad situation and try to improve things for themselves and their families.
> Why, they know that nothing will improve until they do something to improve things for themselves.


Perfect example of MY point. A tiny percent of the poor from Central America have enough gumption to try to make it here. You can't make assumptions about a population based on a tiny percent of the people. The people that come here self select. Just like the pioneers that pushed across the Appalachians or the Irish that came during the potato famine. These were the go getters that made America great.


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## MoonRiver

poppy said:


> The things you list are the same things we have poured money into for decades and they failed to make a difference. We've tried enterprise zones and similar programs many times. Nothing wrong with the public schools except lack of discipline. Answer me this. Why is it we can open a school from scratch in some rat hole city in Afghanistan for kids, mostly girls, who never had 1 day of education in their lives and teach them to read and write fairly well in 2 years but blacks in the cities are offered a free education through 12th grade but never learn to read or write? There is no way those schools in Afghanistan are as well equipped as US schools in black neighborhoods. The difference is those Afghan students WANT an education and go to school every day, often under threat of being killed.


How many times do I have to say it?

Culture.


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## haypoint

I've got a great idea for a TV show. Every week depict a story from the news. A reenactment of what was in the news. Like this deal in Ferguson. Do a 15 minute reenactment of the way the protesters think it happened. Cop opens fire on Gentle Giant. Figure out some excuse for cop's facial injury. Then do 15 minute reenactment on what we expect the cop's version would look like.
Always something on the news that we see in at least two different ways.
That old guy in the theatre that shot the jerk VS gun nut needlessly shoots loving father. Gov. of Texas indicted on corruption charges for abuse of authority VS political game playing. 
Most of us in this discussion are broad brushing the Black Population, when it is a small minority that are committing the crimes. Since that is true, one cannot blame the violence on being a minority, since most Blacks are non-violent. You cannot blame poverty as an excuse for crime, because most poor people are not criminals. It is the criminal mentality that occupies a larger segment of the Black population than exists today in the White population. Give a job to that person and all you get is a criminal with an 8 hour alibi. Give an education to a criminal and all you get is more complicated crimes that are more difficult to solve.


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## kasilofhome

I can buy cultural ...

One a culture that values responsibility,which lends one into individualism, and achievement ....even during trials of set backs. Working today for tomorrow's harvest of goals.

The other culture is one of excuses,which lends one to to victimization,envy,anger, acting out and going further down hill with bridges breaking down creating mental isolation from the rest of those who are achieving. 

No one can help a drunk till he wants help enough to work at it.

Some with those whos culture is irresponsibility.


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## poppy

MoonRiver said:


> How many times do I have to say it?
> 
> Culture.


I fully agree but there is nothing we can do to change black culture any more than we could change Muslim culture. Government has and will fail to do it. Some blacks do pull themselves out of it and do quite well, so we know it can be done. I'd be embarrassed to be black and know my race elected some of the representatives they have in Congress. Those have to be some of the dumbest people on earth.


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## unregistered41671

poppy said:


> I fully agree but there is nothing we can do to change black culture any more than we could change Muslim culture. Government has and will fail to do it. Some blacks do pull themselves out of it and do quite well, so we know it can be done. * I'd be embarrassed to be black and know my race elected some of the representatives they have in Congress. Those have to be some of the dumbest people on earth.*


Whenever I hear someone talking about dumb congress members, I always think of good ole Hank from my state of GA. I am afraid that he is not the only one.

[YOUTUBE][ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs23CjIWMgA[/ame][/YOUTUBE]


----------



## HDRider

haypoint said:


> I've got a great idea for a TV show. Every week depict a story from the news. A reenactment of what was in the news. Like this deal in Ferguson. Do a 15 minute reenactment of the way the protesters think it happened. Cop opens fire on Gentle Giant. Figure out some excuse for cop's facial injury. Then do 15 minute reenactment on what we expect the cop's version would look like.
> Always something on the news that we see in at least two different ways.
> That old guy in the theatre that shot the jerk VS gun nut needlessly shoots loving father. Gov. of Texas indicted on corruption charges for abuse of authority VS political game playing.
> Most of us in this discussion are broad brushing the Black Population, when it is a small minority that are committing the crimes. Since that is true, one cannot blame the violence on being a minority, since most Blacks are non-violent. You cannot blame poverty as an excuse for crime, because most poor people are not criminals. It is the criminal mentality that occupies a larger segment of the Black population than exists today in the White population. Give a job to that person and all you get is a criminal with an 8 hour alibi. Give an education to a criminal and all you get is more complicated crimes that are more difficult to solve.


You might have a hit on your hands.

You could name it "The Truth is NOT Always Black and White"


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## Cornhusker

poppy said:


> I fully agree but there is nothing we can do to change black culture any more than we could change Muslim culture. Government has and will fail to do it. Some blacks do pull themselves out of it and do quite well, so we know it can be done. I'd be embarrassed to be black and know my race elected some of the representatives they have in Congress. Those have to be some of the dumbest people on earth.


Just because one of their elected officials thought Guam was going to tip over if everybody stood on the same side..................:whistlin:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7XXVLKWd3Q[/ame]


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## kasilofhome

If we need to stop only seeing this in blacks because every race has failures and successes. It is a cultural mentality of non responsibility. 

If one race claim the label or if we give a race the label then since changing one's race is impossible they will always have an excuse the will have the option of a live time victim card. So let's stop seeing this as race but behavior maybe link toto culture.

One can and is able to change culture but never race.

How many city people are homesteaders here changes can be made so there is a reason to try. 

Giving up is the worse failure because you fail yourself.


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## FireMaker

Down trodden and underprivileged folks. Here is what a friend of mine said: "they don't know what it's like to be underprivileged. I grew up in the swamp and came to this country unable to speak English. I was 19 with 5 dollars in my pocket. That's underprivileged. (Soloman Shulman)

As a 14 yr old he was living in the swamps of Belarus. He fought the Nazis. He had no youth. He was forced to go from kid to adult. He retired as the Chairman of the Chemistry Department at ISU, Normal Il. He knew what suffering and doing without was. He was a minority. He fought for a chance. He fought so other have a chance.

Who is fighting for what in Ferguson?


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## MoonRiver

poppy said:


> I fully agree but there is nothing we can do to change black culture any more than we could change Muslim culture. Government has and will fail to do it. Some blacks do pull themselves out of it and do quite well, so we know it can be done. I'd be embarrassed to be black and know my race elected some of the representatives they have in Congress. Those have to be some of the dumbest people on earth.


Paul Ryan has a plan to overhaul the poverty programs and I think he is on the right track.


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## MoonRiver

FireMaker said:


> Down trodden and underprivileged folks. Here is what a friend of mine said: "they don't know what it's like to be underprivileged. I grew up in the swamp and came to this country unable to speak English. I was 19 with 5 dollars in my pocket. That's underprivileged. (Soloman Shulman)
> 
> As a 14 yr old he was living in the swamps of Belarus. He fought the Nazis. He had no youth. He was forced to go from kid to adult. He retired as the Chairman of the Chemistry Department at ISU, Normal Il. He knew what suffering and doing without was. He was a minority. He fought for a chance. He fought so other have a chance.
> 
> Who is fighting for what in Ferguson?


Compare the success rates of blacks who immigrate to US as compared to those born here. Same thing. The people who immigrate here are highly motivated and race is mostly inconsequential.


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## TraderBob

I am seeing 2 groups, the hometown protesters, and the outside agitators. The hometown people don't want the outside agitators there. The outside agitators have come from all over, including N.Y. and Chicago...they are the worst of the bunch...a communist group from Chicago and the NBPP, calling for revolution and the death of the cop.

These type are only there to start riots and foment unrest...maybe if the focus of the people was on ridding them from the area, the situation would calm down.


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## MJsLady

Isn't inciting to riot a crime?
Doesn't that make these groups terrorist organizations that HS should be carting off in chains???


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## BadFordRanger

I am so sick of hearing that a black doesn't have a chance, a black doesn't have this and they don't have that. 
The problems blacks have is because they hate what maybe 1 % of the whites great, great, great, great grand parents did 200 years ago. 
My family never owned any danged slaves at all. 
Did any of yours, that you know of? I didn't think so! 
Them "people" have as much chance as I ever had to get rich. 
Actually they had a better chance than I did. I actually pushed myself to the limit trying to get out of the hole I was born into and fell several times doing so. 
But every time I fell, I was back out of the hole I was born into. 
Bad, stupid accidents kept setting me back.
Trips to the jail house is what keeps setting them back. 
If it isn't that, they usually get out of the hole too. Regardless of their color. 
What gets anyone out of the hole starts with living a good clean life. 
And I can only guess, but I do guess that me not living a very clean life years ago could have a lot to do with some of my trying to fly no wings and without my parachute. 
God help them if I was a store owner they wanted to rob and loot. 

Godspeed

Ranger


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## BadFordRanger

MJsLady said:


> Isn't inciting to riot a crime?
> Doesn't that make these groups terrorist organizations that HS should be carting off in chains???


Dang MJ's Lady, why didn't I think about that side of it. 
This is as close to being a terrorist as anything they have found in the states yet and they aren't doing squat about them? 

Godspeed

Ranger


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## haypoint

Common among Black prisoners was the belief that all whites started out rich because of the money made from slavery. That is what reparations is all about. Giving back the money their ancestors earned but weren't paid during slavery.
Having an Uncle doing hard time is about as admired in the Black Community as having an Uncle in the Marines would be in the average White Community.
Arson is power to the powerless. Burn down an African village levels the playing field. Set fire to a Local Store is exciting and in some convoluted way levels the playing field between the wealthy store owners and the poor neighbors stuck paying high prices for their groceries.


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## haypoint

BadFordRanger said:


> Dang MJ's Lady, why didn't I think about that side of it.
> This is as close to being a terrorist as anything they have found in the states yet and they aren't doing squat about them?
> 
> Godspeed
> 
> Ranger


I think that was the direction the local police thought it should be handled. Stem the violence with violence. But, enough fuel had been poured on that fire. So, the State Police were called in with a different tact.
If you have a herd of rampaging cattle. Standing in front of them might not be a good way to stop the herd. Better ride with the herd and slow the pace enough to turn the herd. He is going their direction and slowing them down. There'll be time enough to review video tapes when the rioting is done.


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## Patchouli

TraderBob said:


> I am seeing 2 groups, the hometown protesters, and the outside agitators. The hometown people don't want the outside agitators there. The outside agitators have come from all over, including N.Y. and Chicago...they are the worst of the bunch...a communist group from Chicago and the NBPP, calling for revolution and the death of the cop.
> 
> These type are only there to start riots and foment unrest...maybe if the focus of the people was on ridding them from the area, the situation would calm down.


They have been trying to get them to leave or stop.


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## poppy

Patchouli said:


> They have been trying to get them to leave or stop.


Really? Did they ask Al Sharpton to leave or stop talking? He is the biggest race baiter of them all. The protesters are ignorant too. They don't want facts. They're going around with the "Hands up. Don't shoot" slogan when they have no idea what happened. Yes, a few witness said he had his hands up. The St. Louis Globe Democrat says the police have at least 12 witnesses who say Brown was charging the cop when he was shot. Do the protesters care about those witnesses? You know they don't because it doesn't fit their preconceived beliefs. The stupid MO. democrat governor said today that he demanded a vigorous prosecution. Is that fair when the grand jury hasn't even met yet to determine if the cop should even be charged?


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## haypoint

IMHO, the cop will be charged, even on the most flimsy evidence. The trial will drag on. There will be at least two versions of what happened. The key witnesses are getting their stories straight now. There won't be enough evidence to convict, but the jury will either find him guilty or it will be a hung jury. Justice will not be served, but the mob will be appeased. 
The looters, arsonists and the people that assaulted police with rocks and bottles will cop a plea to jaywalking and never be heard from again.


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## Ambereyes

Patchouli said:


> They have been trying to get them to leave or stop.


Start with the pot stirrers, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton..

Have to say my cup of compassion has just about run dry. 

I have watched many friends and family come to this country with little to nothing, not even a working understanding of the language. They worked hard, any jobs they could find, they learned the language and got as much education as they could. Children were pushed to learn the language, do well in school and respect the laws.

Many have gone on to have their own businesses and get college degrees. And got their citizenship of which they are extremely proud.


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## MoonRiver

Have you noticed the media has made no effort to talk to classmates or friends of Mike Brown. He also apparently has a juvenile record the media doesn't seem very interested in. What kind of man was he? Was robbing a store and attacking a cop surprising or was Mike known for this type of behavior?

The media also hasn't spent much time trying to find out who the instigators of the rioting and looting are. The media is all about video and no longer does any real investigating.

The media has made this into a racial situation because it gets ratings.


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## TraderBob

Radio station KFNS-FM (100.7 FM, &#8220;The Viper&#8221 of Troy, Missouri is reporting Dorian Johnson has now admitted that Michael Brown attacked Officer Wilson and attempted to take his gun.


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## 7thswan

I don't think there will be any Justice for the Cop with Holder involved.


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## MoonRiver

TraderBob said:


> Radio station KFNS-FM (100.7 FM, âThe Viperâ) of Troy, Missouri is reporting Dorian Johnson has now admitted that Michael Brown attacked Officer Wilson and attempted to take his gun.


I don't think I would place much faith in a station called The Viper to have a scoop like that.


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## haypoint

They are a long way away from exposing Brown's past. Heck, just showing what Brown was doing shortly prior to the shooting has been seriously criticized and we have all been told that robbing a Convenience Store and ruffing up the owner is distinctly separate and cannot be mentioned in connection with the Cop gunning down the child known as Gentle Giant.


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## haypoint

http://conservativetribune.com/broken-eye-socket/
Cob was beaten by Brown. Proof, with links to proof Brown didn't have his hands raised, etc.


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## MO_cows

I heard on the radio that a grand jury has been convened. I wonder if the officer will be testifying with his head swaddled in a bandage, or just his bare face? Wonder if he is still puffy, black and blue? Bet you'll never see that photo on the 6 o'clock news! Not as sensational as the premise that he shoots children at will for no other reason besides they are black. It's a sick, sick world we live in.


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## MJsLady

The only facts Sharpton, Jackson et al and the media care about are (Including Holder)
1) Brown was black
2) he was shot by a white cop

To them nothing else counts.


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## greg273

Just saw an interesting video uploaded to youtube, apparently some white, wanna-be anarchists are causing problems in Ferguson. Those punks need to be arrested for disturbing the peace. 
Unfortunately, I cannot post the video, it contains vulgar language. When I first heard of this, before I saw the video, I figured it was angry black folk getting into it with the police, but it was actually a pack of young white punks harassing and trying to get a reaction out of the police. What idiots there are in this world. Something tells me these are some overpriviledged suburbanite punks who think they are 'changing the system' (whatever that means) by being ignorant to the police officers charged with keeping the peace. Wouln't hurt my feelings to see the whole lot of them get pepper sprayed and frog-marched to the drunk tank for a night, then charged with interfering with a police officer, disturbing the police, or failure to comply.
It may be time to take a little trip to see my friends at the organic farm in Ferguson, with a side trip to the protest sites to talk some sense into the outside agitators.


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## JeffreyD

greg273 said:


> Just saw an interesting video uploaded to youtube, apparently some white, wanna-be anarchists are causing problems in Ferguson. Those punks need to be arrested for disturbing the peace.
> Unfortunately, I cannot post the video, it contains vulgar language. When I first heard of this, before I saw the video, I figured it was angry black folk getting into it with the police, but it was actually a pack of young white punks harassing and trying to get a reaction out of the police. What idiots there are in this world. Something tells me these are some overpriviledged suburbanite punks who think they are 'changing the system' (whatever that means) by being ignorant to the police officers charged with keeping the peace. Wouln't hurt my feelings to see the whole lot of them get pepper sprayed and frog-marched to the drunk tank for a night, then charged with interfering with a police officer, disturbing the police, or failure to comply.
> It may be time to take a little trip to see my friends at the organic farm in Ferguson, with a side trip to the protest sites to talk some sense into the outside agitators.


Ah yes, the occupy crowd again!


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## greg273

JeffreyD said:


> Ah yes, the occupy crowd again!


 Hopefully many of them will 'occupy' a jail cell very soon.


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## TraderBob

Members of Revolutionary Communist Party out of Chicago are riling up the crowds. Greg "Joey" Johnson, of Chicago, currently in Ferguson, also traveled with other commies to Florida to incite rioting in the Trayvon case.

They want nothing less than a complete revolution, and will go where they think they have the highest probability of kicking it off.


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## MoonRiver

Let's try this scenario:

Brown and the cop have some type of alteration which results in a serious eye injury to the cop. The cop has just been attacked so his adrenalin is pumping and he can barely see - one eye damaged and the other tearing. Brown makes what the cop interprets to be an aggressive move towards him. 

The cop shoots hitting Brown in the arm. He shoots again hitting Brown in the arm again. At this point he starts to panic thinking "what will it take to stop this guy?". He shoots again and again and again and gain until Brown finally goes down.

So is there a point that this goes from lawful to unlawful? Was it entirely lawful? Was it entirely unlawful?


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## greg273

MoonRiver said:


> So is there a point that this goes from lawful to unlawful? Was it entirely lawful? Was it entirely unlawful?


 It went from lawful to unlawful when the criminal robbed a store and punched a cop. The rest is just bad luck for the perpetrator, punching a cop is a great way to get shot.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> Let's try this scenario:
> 
> Brown and the cop have some type of alteration which results in a serious eye injury to the cop. The cop has just been attacked so his adrenalin is pumping and he can barely see - one eye damaged and the other tearing. Brown makes what the cop interprets to be an aggressive move towards him.
> 
> The cop shoots hitting Brown in the arm. He shoots again hitting Brown in the arm again. At this point he starts to panic thinking "what will it take to stop this guy?". He shoots again and again and again and gain until Brown finally goes down.
> 
> So is there a point that this goes from lawful to unlawful? Was it entirely lawful? Was it entirely unlawful?


Because 'lawful' depends on reasonable human nature and understanding, the point at which it would be 'unlawful' would be the point at which the policeman no long felt in danger. Say Brown was down and clearly incapacitated and the policeman went over and finished him off.
To demand that the policeman to change from life threatened to calm in a couple of seconds is unreasonable. And that is the issue to be resolved- was it reasonble to feel endangered and was his response reasonable. Not whether the policeman should have put his life on the back burner to spare a person who assaulted him.


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## haypoint

Assaulting a police officer isn't an automatic instant capital offence. Protecting yourself from emanate harm is an instant capital offence. 
In my mind's eye, if the cop would have shot Brown at the car where the assault took place, during the assault, it is clear cut justifiable. 
If the cop managed to get control of the gun, from Brown, wouldn't the next step be to arrest Brown? Is there a "Stop, or I'll shoot" law? He couldn't force Brown to stay, he wouldn't want him to simply walk away from a serious police assault.
On those Cops shows, why are weapons drawn when they order a suspect to lay on the ground with their hands on their heads? Isn't the next step shooting if they refuse?
I think the cop followed Brown, ordering him to lay down to be arrested. From some distance Brown rushed the officer. The Officer shot, but Brown continued. The cop shot several more times in rapid succession, finally Brown dropped.
I doubt the cop allowed Brown to walk away and then from the patrol car shot Brown 5 times. I hope not.


----------



## TraderBob

MoonRiver said:


> Let's try this scenario:
> 
> Brown and the cop have some type of alteration which results in a serious eye injury to the cop. The cop has just been attacked so his adrenalin is pumping and he can barely see - one eye damaged and the other tearing. Brown makes what the cop interprets to be an aggressive move towards him.
> 
> The cop shoots hitting Brown in the arm. He shoots again hitting Brown in the arm again. At this point he starts to panic thinking "what will it take to stop this guy?". He shoots again and again and again and gain until Brown finally goes down.
> 
> So is there a point that this goes from lawful to unlawful? Was it entirely lawful? Was it entirely unlawful?


You are taught to shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. Brown apparently was a threat, now he isn't.

On the other hand, the out of town cop who threatened to kill a protester after pointing his weapon at him was clearly not justified, and I hope he will be charged and not just suspended for a short time.


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## Cornhusker

I was watching a hunting show a while back, they were hunting hogs with a bow and arrow.
One guy got charged by a hog, it came at him fast with intent to do harm.
The guy pulled his pistol, and emptied the pistol into the hog even though the first shot pretty much killed it.
People who think cops or anybody else can pull a gun and calmly shoot the buckle of the bad guy's belt so his pants fall down and trip him watch too much TV.
When you are being attacked, more than likely, you'll just keep shooting.


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## unregistered353870

Cornhusker said:


> I was watching a hunting show a while back, they were hunting hogs with a bow and arrow.
> One guy got charged by a hog, it came at him fast with intent to do harm.
> The guy pulled his pistol, and emptied the pistol into the hog even though the first shot pretty much killed it.
> People who think cops or anybody else can pull a gun and calmly shoot the buckle of the bad guy's belt so his pants fall down and trip him watch too much TV.
> When you are being attacked, more than likely, you'll just keep shooting.


I had a similar experience with a bear once. The bear was about the size of the guy this cop shot. I hit it at least 7 times with a 9mm before it dropped, and it was actually the spine shot from my buddy's .223 that put it down.


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## MO_cows

Come on guys, taking your hunting stories over to the outdoors forum. We're not comparing a human being to a hog or a bear are we?


----------



## haypoint

Movies and TV do a disservice to us all. Criminals are often surprised when they shoot someone in the chest and that person attacks them, scratching and biting, collecting all sorts of DNA. People don't die like a pin pricked balloon. To the average person, shooting more than once is unjustified. The Lone Ranger always shot the gun out of their hand and CSI always drops them faster than a WKRP turkey.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNh5W491l3M[/ame]
Some big dude attacks you, you are the cop, nearly gets your gun away from you, seriously smashes your face and then blends back into the neighborhood?
To an injured man, a distance of 30 feet is pretty close if the subject is rushing towards you. We haven't heard from the cop. No weapon was found is what we have heard. Could Brown have had a gun? Could a weapon be quickly removed by the sympathetic bystanders?
Heard today, another "eye witness" has stepped forward. Claimed Brown was shot in the back, in opposition to the autopsy results.


----------



## Cornhusker

MO_cows said:


> Come on guys, taking your hunting stories over to the outdoors forum. We're not comparing a human being to a hog or a bear are we?


Not comparing a human to an animal, just saying when one is under attack, one tends to keep shooting.
Self preservation is human nature, and it's a God given right that we protect ourselves from those who would do us harm.


----------



## unregistered353870

MO_cows said:


> Come on guys, taking your hunting stories over to the outdoors forum. We're not comparing a human being to a hog or a bear are we?


No, we absolutely are not comparing a human being to an animal. It has nothing to do with the target of the shots...it's mostly about the mindset and physiological reaction of the shooter and a little bit about how much it actually takes to stop such an attacker. In a situation where you feel threatened, you do whatever it takes to save your butt. That was the point of both of those stories. And mine was not a hunting story...I'm not a hunter.

And BTW, if that offended you, you would be absolutely floored if I were to compare the human being in this case to innocent animals being hunted. But I won't go there because I try not to speak ill of the dead and I don't know enough to be sure about this case.


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## MO_cows

Thank you for the clarification that you were comparing *shooter* reactions.


----------



## JeffreyD

I didn't go threw all these posts, but, Dr. Baden said he wanted to examine Browns clothes. The reason was to look for powder residue. He said the shots were from a few feet away, not 30 feet.

Looks like the cop stopped Brown to get them.out of the street. The cop didn't know these 2 had just robbed a store, but they did. I believe Brown knew he was going to get in trouble, so the first altercation was when Brown started beating the cop and the cop tried to pull his weapon and fired 1 shot in the car. Brown ran. Realized what had just happened and went back to finish the cop. Didn't work out so well! Now, Browns buddy is changing his story!


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## haypoint

This was read on AM 760 Detroit today. Says a lot. Investigators want to focus on the Cop's mind set at the time of the assault/shooting, but not admit that Brown likely would have believed he was getting stopped as a result of the strong armed robbery moments before. Perhaps his success at throwing around the store owner bolstered the 300 pound criminal to take on the much hated police, too. Worth the read:
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/lifeline-training/open-letter-captain-ronald-s-j


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## mmoetc

Well at least we have the official police report to read now.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5701131


----------



## Old Vet

mmoetc said:


> Well at least we have the official police report to read now.
> http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5701131


Not all of the report is their. Only the facts that they were required by law to release.
I say Hang the police officer why wast money on a trial the same for anybody that is involved in a murder like a traffic wreck that kills somebody if the public has already made up what is the right story.


----------



## where I want to

Both are trying to make hay from a weed patch. But especially the protesters do not want to hear anything that even raises a question about their view that the racial profiling of a totally innocent child lead to his murder. This idea is so pervasive in black communities that everything is interpreted through a filter of race. Anyone who raises a question is dismissed as not understanding their world. Or racist. And that is the end of all discussions.
Every detail that raises an issue is interpreted as supporting their view. Every conflicting detail is dismissed or cause for anger.


----------



## mmoetc

where I want to said:


> Both are trying to make hay from a weed patch. But especially the protesters do not want to hear anything that even raises a question about their view that the racial profiling of a totally innocent child lead to his murder. This idea is so pervasive in black communities that everything is interpreted through a filter of race. Anyone who raises a question is dismissed as not understanding their world. Or racist. And that is the end of all discussions.
> Every detail that raises an issue is interpreted as supporting their view. Every conflicting detail is dismissed or cause for anger.


What details? The official report didn't even contain all the information Missouri's law requires. I'll admit I don't know what happened and I haven't passed judgement. I'll also admit that I think the way the police dept has handled this incident, including the release of this official report has done them no favors.


----------



## where I want to

mmoetc said:


> What details? The official report didn't even contain all the information Missouri's law requires. I'll admit I don't know what happened and I haven't passed judgement. I'll also admit that I think the way the police dept has handled this incident, including the release of this official report has done them no favors.


The absence of redacted information. The article said what was provided under the law was what was required by the law. It did not say that the info wasn't collected.
In other words, you don't know. And look where you went with that. That is a weed. You interpreted the redaction as an example of sinister intent in refusing to collect info by the police. When it is simply following the law on what can be released at this point.


----------



## MO_cows

Well, duh! A small town police force has not been polished or sophisticated in handling the biggest thing that ever happened there, a potentially very dangerous situation, with the world media focused on them. Who woulda thunk it?

This incident is under a microscope at several different levels. It will take time for all the information to come out. Everybody just needs to chill.

Capt. Johnson is showing the strain, he looks tired. Saw his latest news conference, you can tell this is taking a toll on him. He has been a good front man for the LEOs and he has a rapport with the community but without pandering to them.


----------



## mmoetc

where I want to said:


> The absence of redacted information. The article said what was provided under the law was what was required by the law. It did not say that the info wasn't collected.
> In other words, you don't know. And look where you went with that. That is a weed. You interpreted the redaction as an example of sinister intent in refusing to collect info by the police. When it is simply following the law on what can be released at this point.


My apologies. Huffpost has seemingly changed the story they initially posted to the one linked to. Here is the article I attempted to link to. http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-rele...lYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA0ZCMDIxXzE-

It references the Ferguson Department's report not the the St Louis County report. The Ferguson report seems to be the one missing details the law requires. As I said, I've made no decision. It is interesting that many of you who demand transparency at many other levels of government are so quick to accept the lack of it here.


----------



## MoonRiver

MO_cows said:


> Capt. Johnson is showing the strain, he looks tired. Saw his latest news conference, you can tell this is taking a toll on him. He has been a good front man for the LEOs and he has a rapport with the community but without pandering to them.


Good front man? 

I thought so at first, but then he allowed the looting of the stores without any response. It seems to me everyone in a position of authority from the Ferguson police chief, to St Louis County police chief, to the state police, to the governor, to Eric Holder, to Obama all screwed this up. I would think by now, the book has been written on how to handle these type of situations.


----------



## where I want to

mmoetc said:


> My apologies. Huffpost has seemingly changed the story they initially posted to the one linked to. Here is the article I attempted to link to. http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-rele...lYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA0ZCMDIxXzE-
> 
> It references the Ferguson Department's report not the the St Louis County report. The Ferguson report seems to be the one missing details the law requires. As I said, I've made no decision. It is interesting that many of you who demand transparency at many other levels of government are so quick to accept the lack of it here.


That is exactly the same as your first reference with lots of accusations from the lawyer added. Parts were redacted. The lawyer demanding more information is incensed (big surprise.) The lawyer for the government has not yet responded. So there is an outburst of extrapolation that unknown blanks on the form are evidence of evil doing.
That assumption is no indication of "not having made up your mind." It is, in this article, an assumption of intentional hiding of the facts because the police have done wrong and are trying to cover it up. To which you seem to feel sympathy, otherwise why bring up something that will not resolve the point no matter what is in it.
Transparency is not being notified of every mistake, rumor, innuendo, statement and error immediately upon demand. It is getting the correct information at the point that information is needed- not simply wanted. I personally want to know what the hospital records show about the policeman's injuries- I suspect that it is being held back because of the protesters' reactions to the video- there would be another outburst of looting. I was very irritated at the media showing pictures of a Ct scan that was not the policeman's as if it was. Now I want to wait until it is verified reliably.
There is way too much of this irrational self indulgence going on. Every unrelated thing that can be used to make someone look at a story is being held up as "proof" of whatever the person's beliefs are to begin with.


----------



## mmoetc

where I want to said:


> That is exactly the same as your first reference with lots of accusations from the lawyer added. Parts were redacted. The lawyer demanding more information is incensed (big surprise.) The lawyer for the government has not yet responded. So there is an outburst of extrapolation that unknown blanks on the form are evidence of evil doing.
> That assumption is no indication of "not having made up your mind." It is, in this article, an assumption of intentional hiding of the facts because the police have done wrong and are trying to cover it up. To which you seem to feel sympathy, otherwise why bring up something that will not resolve the point no matter what is in it.
> Transparency is not being notified of every mistake, rumor, innuendo, statement and error immediately upon demand. It is getting the correct information at the point that information is needed- not simply wanted. I personally want to know what the hospital records show about the policeman's injuries- I suspect that it is being held back because of the protesters' reactions to the video- there would be another outburst of looting. I was very irritated at the media showing pictures of a Ct scan that was not the policeman's as if it was. Now I want to wait until it is verified reliably.
> There is way too much of this irrational self indulgence going on. Every unrelated thing that can be used to make someone look at a story is being held up as "proof" of whatever the person's beliefs are to begin with.


The report released by the Ferguson dept doesn't seem to meet the requirements of Missouri's sunshine law. The 17 pages of reports and information released about the theft of the cigars did. Why the difference? You claim that the facts shouldn't be released until they are known. I agree. What is in the initial police report is known. It is not subject to change. That document is a fact and the contents, in their entirety should be released according to Missouri law. Yeah, it makes me suspicious of the police departments motives, but it is also the exact information that could lead me to a conclusion of what happened. Unlike the "leaked" CT scans and shock radio reports of witness accounts that have led many to make up their minds.


----------



## kasilofhome

I got supecious when I saw the video on the store.


----------



## where I want to

mmoetc said:


> The report released by the Ferguson dept doesn't seem to meet the requirements of Missouri's sunshine law. The 17 pages of reports and information released about the theft of the cigars did. Why the difference? You claim that the facts shouldn't be released until they are known. I agree. What is in the initial police report is known. It is not subject to change. That document is a fact and the contents, in their entirety should be released according to Missouri law. Yeah, it makes me suspicious of the police departments motives, but it is also the exact information that could lead me to a conclusion of what happened. Unlike the "leaked" CT scans and shock radio reports of witness accounts that have led many to make up their minds.


Unless you happen to be a person who made a statement the protesters don't like, in which as your life may be not worth much. Or you called for the police. Or it contained mistaken information that will be latched onto by those who see anything that fits their prejudices as fact. Or someone corrected something like a date or time.
The initial report is a fact as far as it exists- it does not mean it contains much in the line of fact itself. 
I can't believe that anyone not witch hunting would latch on to a preliminary report as the final word and at the same time discounting physical evidence. Your bias is showing indeed.


----------



## mmoetc

where I want to said:


> Unless you happen to be a person who made a statement the protesters don't like, in which as your life may be not worth much. Or you called for the police. Or it contained mistaken information that will be latched onto by those who see anything that fits their prejudices as fact. Or someone corrected something like a date or time.
> The initial report is a fact as far as it exists- it does not mean it contains much in the line of fact itself.
> I can't believe that anyone not witch hunting would latch on to a preliminary report as the final word and at the same time discounting physical evidence. Your bias is showing indeed.


I never said it was the final word. It is a piece of the puzzle. A piece that is legally mandated to be released in its entirety with certain information present. I'm not sure why you think the department shouldn't have to comply with the law. Discrepancies in stories told to the police result in people going to jail every day. Why should any discrepancies, if there are any, be ignored here? The only physical evidence I've seen are the reports of the autopsy done at the Brown family request. Other than showing that Brown was shot from the front not much else can be said with certainty about the circumstances from the results. As always, many here "know " much more than I.


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## 7thswan

I think the PD released the video-because they had it-because people were demanding the Cops name. No diffrence. Noone cared that the Cop might be in danger by the release of his name, so noone should be po'd about the info on Brown. Bite your nose off to spite your face-the public asked for it and then are mad about it-too bad. So all the whineing got us where we are now-no more info.The Gov or anyone else for that matter can hold off on FOIA's now. It will take years in court.....


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## Cornhusker

Too bad the race baiters had to muddy this up and make it another race issue.
I guess Al and Barry have to make a living too.


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## kasilofhome

Race baiting destroys the people.

Mo .....remover every bit of the race info and honesty see if you suddenly see that people are shifting toward EMOTIONAL JUSTICE. This president has guided the racist to a more active role.

Al, jessy Eric,Jeremiah, are racist as is the president.


----------



## haypoint

Did you hear about the 5 year old shot in a driveby in Detroit yesterday? Did you hear about the man's body found in a park, yesterday? Hard telling how many actual murders of Black men over the weekend. Silence.

All we need to know is that in MO, a cop can shoot a person fleeing from a felony. We accept cops gunning down bank robbers, but seem to waver when a cop shoots a man for Assault on a Police officer. I think that is a felony, right? While I don't think Brown was shot in the back, by MO law, shooting fleeing Brown is justified.

Remember, if you argue with the Cop, smash him in the face, try to take his gun, you'd better be successful.

Sad that the greatest, most noteworthy thing in Brown's life, the lives of his family, the lives of his neighborhood, the lives of his community is to be shot by a White Cop. I couldn't afford to get Al Sharpton to give the eulogy at my funeral, but Brown did. Just look at all the moments of fame the folks of Ferguson are getting.


----------



## mmoetc

haypoint said:


> Did you hear about the 5 year old shot in a driveby in Detroit yesterday? Did you hear about the man's body found in a park, yesterday? Hard telling how many actual murders of Black men over the weekend. Silence.
> 
> All we need to know is that in MO, a cop can shoot a person fleeing from a felony. We accept cops gunning down bank robbers, but seem to waver when a cop shoots a man for Assault on a Police officer. I think that is a felony, right? While I don't think Brown was shot in the back, by MO law, shooting fleeing Brown is justified.
> 
> Remember, if you argue with the Cop, smash him in the face, try to take his gun, you'd better be successful.
> 
> Sad that the greatest, most noteworthy thing in Brown's life, the lives of his family, the lives of his neighborhood, the lives of his community is to be shot by a White Cop. I couldn't afford to get Al Sharpton to give the eulogy at my funeral, but Brown did. Just look at all the moments of fame the folks of Ferguson are getting.


It's good that you "know" all these things about what happened in Ferguson that day. Care to show me the official reports and statements from the authorities that state these events for the record. Many on the other side "knew" in the immediate aftermath that Brown was shot while standing still with his hands up. I don't "know" much about what actually happened. It would seem that if it were so straight forward and simple it wouldn't take a couple of months of grand jury testimony, which is what is being reported today, to resolve. We could just let those who "know" decide.


----------



## Nate_in_IN

mmoetc said:


> The report released by the Ferguson dept doesn't seem to meet the requirements of Missouri's sunshine law. The 17 pages of reports and information released about the theft of the cigars did. Why the difference?


Maybe because one is still an ongoing investigation and the other is not?


----------



## mmoetc

Nate_in_IN said:


> Maybe because one is still an ongoing investigation and the other is not?


Since evidence is already be presented to the grand jury it would seem the investigation is essentially complete. This report, which is a part of the record of the incident and which shouldn't change is subject to release according to state law with certain information required to be in it.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Actually, the assult of the officer and the cigar theft are two different investigations, from what I understand.


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## HDRider

The worm has turned. 

Now the controversy has shifted from bad cop shoots innocent citizen to white folks leave dead black man laying in the street.


----------



## Nate_in_IN

mmoetc said:


> Since evidence is already be presented to the grand jury it would seem the investigation is essentially complete. This report, which is a part of the record of the incident and which shouldn't change is subject to release according to state law with certain information required to be in it.


I doubt the investigation is complete. Even if the local police force has closed theirs there is still a Federal one ongoing.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Also, if the guy was shot while standing with his hands up, you could tell by the autopsy report. It showed all bullet entrance wounds to the front. Now go look in a mirror, raise your arms as if surrendering. Look in the mirror, you are looking at the backs of your arms, not the front of them where the bullets entered.


----------



## mmoetc

HDRider said:


> The worm has turned.
> 
> Now the controversy has shifted from bad cop shoots innocent citizen to white folks leave dead black man laying in the street.


For many of the people in Ferguson the controversy has always been about a primarily white police force out of touch with their primarily black population. Nothing has changed that.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

HDRider said:


> The worm has turned.
> 
> Now the controversy has shifted from bad cop shoots innocent citizen to white folks leave dead black man laying in the street.


Yet there is still no national outcry about the incident in indianapolis, Black thug shoots and kills white cop.


----------



## Nate_in_IN

mmoetc said:


> For many of the people in Ferguson the controversy has always been about a primarily white police force out of touch with their primarily black population. Nothing has changed that.


Is that what the riots were about?


----------



## HDRider

mmoetc said:


> For many of the people in Ferguson the controversy has always been about a primarily white police force out of touch with their primarily black population. Nothing has changed that.


Do you live in Ferguson?


----------



## kasilofhome

Sorry but many people are displaying a racist mentality. Remove the race from this and all other new story's and view the facts. If one can not remove race from news I believe the can not because the are racist.


----------



## mmoetc

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> Also, if the guy was shot while standing with his hands up, you could tell by the autopsy report. It showed all bullet entrance wounds to the front. Now go look in a mirror, raise your arms as if surrendering. Look in the mirror, you are looking at the backs of your arms, not the front of them where the bullets entered.


Apparently my arms are articulated differently than yours. If I stand in front of a mirror with my arms at my side and my thumbs pointing outward and mark the location of the wounds in Brown's upper arm they remain facing forward when it raise my arms to surrender. The track if the bullets through the arm would give more detail. http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-rele...lYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA0ZCMDIxXzE- Here's an interesting article on the limits of autopsies.


----------



## mmoetc

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> Also, if the guy was shot while standing with his hands up, you could tell by the autopsy report. It showed all bullet entrance wounds to the front. Now go look in a mirror, raise your arms as if surrendering. Look in the mirror, you are looking at the backs of your arms, not the front of them where the bullets entered.





HDRider said:


> Do you live in Ferguson?


Nope.


----------



## kasilofhome

Mo ......really you normally contort your arms in an unnatural position with your thumbs outwards. Yes, humans can rotate their arms in such a way .....you got us there it is possible. Odds would be against the adult male of 18 already with rap sheet and having been visited moments before stealing and displaying hostile acts of aggression while committing a crime twisting his arms.


----------



## kasilofhome

Being racist is not going to help.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

kasilofhome said:


> Being racist is not going to help.


I fully agree, which is why I have posted the deal with indianapolis, it goes to show that, especially in this case (Ferguson), it is the black community being racist, and making a non racial issue into a racial issue.

Reminds me of a cartoon I saw once, Al and Jesse found a genie lamp, when the genie offered them one wish, they, together, wished that racism would disappear.
*poof*, Al and Jesse disappeared.


----------



## Cornhusker

mmoetc said:


> For many of the people in Ferguson the controversy has always been about a primarily white police force out of touch with their primarily black population. Nothing has changed that.


Whose job is it to change that?
Isn't it illegal to hire based on race?
If the people of Ferguson think they need represented, perhaps they should step up to the plate?
It's easy to stomp around and blame somebody else, but they need to grow up and take responsibility and actually do something besides burn and loot.
Waiting on someone else to solve one's problems is a good way to not solve problems.


----------



## haypoint

mmoetc said:


> It's good that you "know" all these things about what happened in Ferguson that day. Care to show me the official reports and statements from the authorities that state these events for the record. Many on the other side "knew" in the immediate aftermath that Brown was shot while standing still with his hands up. I don't "know" much about what actually happened. It would seem that if it were so straight forward and simple it wouldn't take a couple of months of grand jury testimony, which is what is being reported today, to resolve. We could just let those who "know" decide.


This discussion has gone on for days on Homesteadingtoday. Pages and pages of discussions. None of us were there. It is all speculation, based on the information provided. Seemed to me that the public "knows" the Cop got beat up. We should know that is a felony. The earliest autopsy report says Brown was shot from over 30 feet away. Am I wrong to deduce that a person that busts up a cop in the face and moments later is over 30 feet from the Cop is leaving the scene of a felony?

The Grieving Mob would not tolerate a rapid decision by the Grand Jury, surely not while the torches and rioters are still in town. There is no reason to announce anything until cooler heads prevail. 

So since you and I weren't there, and speculation upsets you,perhaps it best that you don't post here and don't read me subsequent posts?


----------



## mmoetc

kasilofhome said:


> Mo ......really you normally contort your arms in an unnatural position with your thumbs outwards. Yes, humans can rotate their arms in such a way .....you got us there it is possible. Odds would be against the adult male of 18 already with rap sheet and having been visited moments before stealing and displaying hostile acts of aggression while committing a crime twisting his arms.


That's the position the arms are shown from the autopsy diagrams showing where the wounds occurred. It only involves contortion if you deviate from the evidence presented.


----------



## mmoetc

haypoint said:


> This discussion has gone on for days on Homesteadingtoday. Pages and pages of discussions. None of us were there. It is all speculation, based on the information provided. Seemed to me that the public "knows" the Cop got beat up. We should know that is a felony. The earliest autopsy report says Brown was shot from over 30 feet away. Am I wrong to deduce that a person that busts up a cop in the face and moments later is over 30 feet from the Cop is leaving the scene of a felony?
> 
> The Grieving Mob would not tolerate a rapid decision by the Grand Jury, surely not while the torches and rioters are still in town. There is no reason to announce anything until cooler heads prevail.
> 
> So since you and I weren't there, and speculation upsets you,perhaps it best that you don't post here and don't read me subsequent posts?


Speculation doesn't bother me. I do it all the time. Claiming to know things one cannot does bother me. Perhaps if my criticism bothers you you should use the ignore function.


----------



## where I want to

mmoetc said:


> Speculation doesn't bother me. I do it all the time. Claiming to know things one cannot does bother me. Perhaps if my criticism bothers you you should use the ignore function.


Silence is consent. Besides, arguing like this hones ones own argument, although I could wish for deep thought out opposition. Saying everything is just the result of white racism is too easy.


----------



## HDRider

where I want to said:


> Silence is consent. Besides, arguing like this hones ones on argument, although I could wish for deep thought out opposition. Saying everything is just the result of white racism is too easy.


Most everyone wants "easy".


----------



## mmoetc

where I want to said:


> Silence is consent. Besides, arguing like this hones ones own argument, although I could wish for deep thought out opposition. Saying everything is just the result of white racism is too easy.


And where might I have said that? I'm not all that interested in honing my arguments. I am interested in the truth coming out, whatever it may be. Could the police officer been 100% justified in shooting? Certainly. Could he have grossly overreacted and shot Brown needlessly? Sure. Is the truth probably somewhere in between. Quite likely IMHO.


----------



## where I want to

mmoetc said:


> And where might I have said that? I'm not all that interested in honing my arguments. I am interested in the truth coming out, whatever it may be. Could the police officer been 100% justified in shooting? Certainly. Could he have grossly overreacted and shot Brown needlessly? Sure. Is the truth probably somewhere in between. Quite likely IMHO.


To tell what is the truth when you hear it, and sometimes even when you see it, it must stand in the face of argument. Until you can articulate the issues, you can't get past your own prejudices. So honing your arguments is the same as deeping your understanding. If you can't see the inconsistancies in your understanding, you simply will be wrong except in the few cases chance let you land in the right place immediately. And sadly will not know the difference.

But it is now clearer to me how anyone can think that a personal attack such as saying "you are racist" is good enough of an argument.


----------



## haypoint

mmoetc said:


> It's good that you "know" all these things about what happened in Ferguson that day. Care to show me the official reports and statements from the authorities that state these events for the record. Many on the other side "knew" in the immediate aftermath that Brown was shot while standing still with his hands up. I don't "know" much about what actually happened. It would seem that if it were so straight forward and simple it wouldn't take a couple of months of grand jury testimony, which is what is being reported today, to resolve. We could just let those who "know" decide.


What documentation do you require? What is credible? Was the Cop's CAT Scan credible? Was the witness statement that the Cop shot Brown for no reason credible? Are all police reports credible? Was the initial autopsy report that was made public credible?
In my earlier comments, I made a few statements of fact. In MO a cop can shoot a fleeing felon. That's a fact, look it up. Most of us understand that a fleeing felon, like from a Bank Robbery, can get shot by police, fleeing from the robbery. With me on this fact?
Am I assuming too much to connect the Cop's facial injuries with an alleged assault from Brown? In your mind, at this time, do you think Brown assaulted the Cop? The witness originally stated the Cop grabbed Brown by the neck as the Cop sat in his cruiser and Brown stood outside. Is that a credible witness statement? Should the investigation give validity to this eye witness? Do you believe it? Will a jury?
Recently, in Detroit, 50 Black men beat a white man to near death. The investigation couldn't get any witnesses. 50 people involved and no one saw anything. I suspect the Ferguson investigation has found 20 eye witnesses, each with a different statement about how Brown was needlessly gunned down.
If you believe the Cop simply gunned down Brown for walking in the street and there was no assault of a Police officer, it is a simple investigation. Hard to prove premeditation, so charge him with 2nd degree murder and get the trial going. 

If you believe Brown assaulted the Cop and then attempted to flee, it matters little beyond that he was fleeing the sight of a felony and the Cop is justified in shooting. 
It does make for interesting discussion, if Brown refused the Cop's order to lay down and be arrested, instead walking away with arms aloft, walking forward or backwards, away from the cop. Hands in the air isn't permission to escape, IMHO.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Haypoint, slow down, you are confusing him with all this common sense you are spouting.


----------



## kasilofhome

mmoetc said:


> That's the position the arms are shown from the autopsy diagrams showing where the wounds occurred. It only involves contortion if you deviate from the evidence presented.


No, the human body have the thumb typically positioned closest to the main body torsal when at the sides and the thumb would be pointing to one's head if up in the air. 

I am understanding that instead of the palms facing the cop the back of the hand would be facing the cop in order for the thumb to be in the position you claim. Not a very natural body position. But if that works for you so be it.

Is it a good thing to rob a store, or attack another person.....or two in a day. Come on cling to he is a victim because of race and you should accept that such a mindset is destructive to society. 

Focusing on race is degrading to everyone.


----------



## haypoint

I think we are being unfair to the Black race. Among Black children, under 6 years old, criminal activity is about equal to other races. Among Black women over 40 and Black men over 50, the statistics for crime are about the same as White people.
Black women, between 7 years and 40 years have an elevated rate of criminal activity than White women. However, much of that crime is associated with Black men, between 16 and 30 years of age. These women are the life partners or mothers of criminals. Black men between 30 and 50 are the third highest segment to commit felonies. Often they are the men who have completed their debt to society but lack the social skills and desires to assimilate fully into society.
But the Lion's share of violent criminal activity is the high energy, mostly under-civilized 7 year old to 29 year old Black male. Seems to take a few years for the Social Workers and Probation Officers to catch up.

In the highly civilized honeybee colony, there is the queen, drones and worker bees. Each group is identifiable by their appearance and their duties.

If we could somehow separate the group we commonly refer to as Black, from this sub-group, the 7 to 29 year olds, the division between the law abiding Black population and the law abiding White population could heal.

Any suggestions on what we could call this group that often commits crimes, idolizes criminals and undermines the fabric of the communities they live in? Jessy's Boys? Sharptonites? Obamanations?

Under all this ill advised attempt at humor is the core of the problem. Object to the way I put it, but there are undeniable truths within it. IMHO


----------



## mmoetc

haypoint said:


> What documentation do you require? What is credible? Was the Cop's CAT Scan credible? Was the witness statement that the Cop shot Brown for no reason credible? Are all police reports credible? Was the initial autopsy report that was made public credible?
> In my earlier comments, I made a few statements of fact. In MO a cop can shoot a fleeing felon. That's a fact, look it up. Most of us understand that a fleeing felon, like from a Bank Robbery, can get shot by police, fleeing from the robbery. With me on this fact?
> Am I assuming too much to connect the Cop's facial injuries with an alleged assault from Brown? In your mind, at this time, do you think Brown assaulted the Cop? The witness originally stated the Cop grabbed Brown by the neck as the Cop sat in his cruiser and Brown stood outside. Is that a credible witness statement? Should the investigation give validity to this eye witness? Do you believe it? Will a jury?
> Recently, in Detroit, 50 Black men beat a white man to near death. The investigation couldn't get any witnesses. 50 people involved and no one saw anything. I suspect the Ferguson investigation has found 20 eye witnesses, each with a different statement about how Brown was needlessly gunned down.
> If you believe the Cop simply gunned down Brown for walking in the street and there was no assault of a Police officer, it is a simple investigation. Hard to prove premeditation, so charge him with 2nd degree murder and get the trial going.
> 
> If you believe Brown assaulted the Cop and then attempted to flee, it matters little beyond that he was fleeing the sight of a felony and the Cop is justified in shooting.
> It does make for interesting discussion, if Brown refused the Cop's order to lay down and be arrested, instead walking away with arms aloft, walking forward or backwards, away from the cop. Hands in the air isn't permission to escape, IMHO.


http://www.drudge.com/news/181390/right-wing-blogger-fakes-ct-scan-cops. Would this be the CT scan I'm supposed to find credible? I don't find the initial witness reports any more or less credible than I do the phone call to the radio station by a friend of Officer Wilson. Police reports can be riddled with mistruths or they can be accurate descriptions of what happened. It would be enlightening to see them in this case. 

All of your statements made about felonies and assault were accurate. Now, care to show me the official reports that show any of this actually happened in this case? How many shots did Officer Wilson fire? Was it only seven? What were the extent of Officer Wilson's injuries? How far away was Brown when the first shot struck? How far when the last? If the forensic evidence supports Officer Wilson's account, why not release it. Facts like that don't change.

I don't know what a jury will believe. I do know a grand jury will often believe whatever story a DA tells them.


----------



## haypoint

Prefer this right wing blog known as ABC NEWS? 
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/0...wn---had-serious-facial-injury-source-sa.html
They won't be done with the investigation for 6 to 8 weeks. By then, Al and Jessie will be stirring up the masses elsewhere. The store owners will have Ferguson swept up. Black on Black crime will continue. 
Media Hound and future President Hillary knew enough to stay away from today's funeral.


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## kasilofhome

My brothers takers


----------



## mmoetc

kasilofhome said:


> No, the human body have the thumb typically positioned closest to the main body torsal when at the sides and the thumb would be pointing to one's head if up in the air.
> 
> I am understanding that instead of the palms facing the cop the back of the hand would be facing the cop in order for the thumb to be in the position you claim. Not a very natural body position. But if that works for you so be it.
> 
> Is it a good thing to rob a store, or attack another person.....or two in a day. Come on cling to he is a victim because of race and you should accept that such a mindset is destructive to society.
> 
> Focusing on race is degrading to everyone.


http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/1...was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=0&referrer=

Here's the diagram. Place your hands in that that position, mark the wound locations on your arm and raise your hands as if surrendering. The wounds could have occurred in that posture just as easily as the threatening postures you assume to have happened.


----------



## mmoetc

haypoint said:


> Prefer this right wing blog known as ABC NEWS?
> http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/0...wn---had-serious-facial-injury-source-sa.html
> They won't be done with the investigation for 6 to 8 weeks. By then, Al and Jessie will be stirring up the masses elsewhere. The store owners will have Ferguson swept up. Black on Black crime will continue.
> Media Hound and future President Hillary knew enough to stay away from today's funeral.


More credible than the fake CT scan. If the investigation won't be complete for two more months what evidence is being given to the grand jury. I realize that things like toxicology take more time than shown on TV dramas but what is left to investigate? We know who shot who. We know their relative distances apart. We have at least one eye witness, Officer Wilson, and know his account. With all the resources being thrown at this on a state and federal level a pretty accurate recreation of the scene should be done. At least someone knows all these things, I don't.

Now I'll give you a reason that, although I don't know what happened, I think the officer's alleged account may be accurate. The Feds haven't leaked anything to substantially refute his narrative.


----------



## haypoint

mmoetc said:


> http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/1...was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=0&referrer=
> 
> Here's the diagram. Place your hands in that that position, mark the wound locations on your arm and raise your hands as if surrendering. The wounds could have occurred in that posture just as easily as the threatening postures you assume to have happened.


So, the entry and re-entry wounds are consistent with both scenarios. 

Let me speculate further. If you place your upper arm in the upright position, but bend the elbows at a 90 degree placing both forearms across the face, thumbs down. The witnesses can say Browns arms were up. Others could say he was shielding his face. 

If Brown had not attacked the cop and the cop just opened fire on Brown for Public Blackness, I hope the cop goes to prison for a very long time.

If Brown had attacked the cop, which is a felony in MO, the cop is required to use any means necessary to arrest him, even deadly force.
The cop doesn't have to approach the felon. In fact he would be unwise to get close, again.


----------



## haypoint

mmoetc said:


> More credible than the fake CT scan. If the investigation won't be complete for two more months what evidence is being given to the grand jury. I realize that things like toxicology take more time than shown on TV dramas but what is left to investigate? We know who shot who. We know their relative distances apart. We have at least one eye witness, Officer Wilson, and know his account. With all the resources being thrown at this on a state and federal level a pretty accurate recreation of the scene should be done. At least someone knows all these things, I don't.
> 
> Now I'll give you a reason that, although I don't know what happened, I think the officer's alleged account may be accurate. The Feds haven't leaked anything to substantially refute his narrative.


Grand Jury meets once a week. Maybe this will help:

http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/whats-grand-jury-how-will-it-work-ferguson-case


----------



## mmoetc

haypoint said:


> So, the entry and re-entry wounds are consistent with both scenarios.
> 
> Let me speculate further. If you place your upper arm in the upright position, but bend the elbows at a 90 degree placing both forearms across the face, thumbs down. The witnesses can say Browns arms were up. Others could say he was shielding his face.
> 
> If Brown had not attacked the cop and the cop just opened fire on Brown for Public Blackness, I hope the cop goes to prison for a very long time.
> 
> If Brown had attacked the cop, which is a felony in MO, the cop is required to use any means necessary to arrest him, even deadly force.
> The cop doesn't have to approach the felon. In fact he would be unwise to get close, again.


At least your to "if" now. It's where I've always been. I'm an equal opportunity skeptic.


----------



## mmoetc

haypoint said:


> Grand Jury meets once a week. Maybe this will help:
> 
> http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/whats-grand-jury-how-will-it-work-ferguson-case


Already knew that. You were able to summarize the case in one post earlier. The DA seems highly inefficient.


----------



## haypoint

mmoetc said:


> Already knew that. You were able to summarize the case in one post earlier. The DA seems highly inefficient.


Not inefficient. Purposefully, methodically dragging this out.

If he hadn't slowed everything down, the National Guard would be back in town. Just for the sake of idle chatter, imagine those with the facts know the cop was justified. Pick your own scenario. I like gun powder on Brown's shirt. The scuffle happened at the Cop car. Open and shut case of justifiable homicide. To throw that to the NEWS media now, would turn Ferguson into "The charred garbage formerly known as Ferguson".
Let's give this some time to simmer, get cooler heads to prevail. Let the Courts deal with the looters. Once everything has calmed down, leak some evidence over the span of a few weeks, until everyone sees Brown instigated the tragedy. Then after careful deliberation, set the cop free. Perhaps the FBI can hire him as a weapons instructor, because he sure can't be a cop after this.


----------



## JeffreyD

mmoetc said:


> http://www.drudge.com/news/181390/right-wing-blogger-fakes-ct-scan-cops. Would this be the CT scan I'm supposed to find credible? I don't find the initial witness reports any more or less credible than I do the phone call to the radio station by a friend of Officer Wilson. Police reports can be riddled with mistruths or they can be accurate descriptions of what happened. It would be enlightening to see them in this case.
> 
> All of your statements made about felonies and assault were accurate. Now, care to show me the official reports that show any of this actually happened in this case? How many shots did Officer Wilson fire? Was it only seven? What were the extent of Officer Wilson's injuries? How far away was Brown when the first shot struck? How far when the last? If the forensic evidence supports Officer Wilson's account, why not release it. Facts like that don't change.
> 
> I don't know what a jury will believe. I do know a grand jury will often believe whatever story a DA tells them.


Dr. Baden said that he wanted Browns clothes so he could better determine the distance between Wilson and Brown. He did say that he believes the shots were from just a few feet away! Not 30' like some are saying.


----------



## where I want to

mmoetc said:


> http://www.drudge.com/news/181390/right-wing-blogger-fakes-ct-scan-cops. Would this be the CT scan I'm supposed to find credible? I don't find the initial witness reports any more or less credible than I do the phone call to the radio station by a friend of Officer Wilson. Police reports can be riddled with mistruths or they can be accurate descriptions of what happened. It would be enlightening to see them in this case.
> 
> All of your statements made about felonies and assault were accurate. Now, care to show me the official reports that show any of this actually happened in this case? How many shots did Officer Wilson fire? Was it only seven? What were the extent of Officer Wilson's injuries? How far away was Brown when the first shot struck? How far when the last? If the forensic evidence supports Officer Wilson's account, why not release it. Facts like that don't change.
> 
> I don't know what a jury will believe. I do know a grand jury will often believe whatever story a DA tells them.


I just read a bit in the NYT online where a casual mention that Brown was "no angel" brought down rants and abuse on the writer. Frankly the idea of so many seems to be that, despite much evidence that he had moments of aggression beyond the store video, it is racist to even hint that he was anything but an angel.

Anything that can faintly be interpreted as supporting the policeman's actions will result in more rants and possibly violence. The very fact that everything has not been released to the press simply means they have learned their lesson. It actually makes me think that there is such evidence. 

Despite the call for justice, there is zero desire by the protesters for it. What they call justice is simply revenge because there is no hint that it is possible at all that the policeman committed murder and should be convicted immediately.

Your statements follow the same pattern despite your announcements of not having judged. You dismiss everything that does not support guilt and embrace things as proof that simply would never amount to proof.

You seemed fixed on the number of shots, which does not prove anything at all. Brown could have been a raging maniac and been shot six times or he could be innocent as a lamb and be shot six times. You say the police report could be riddled with lies or be truthful, but without the context, you don't know. All it would mean is that it could be unreliable as evidence or useful as evidence. Even lying on a police report does not prove guilt except that the writer lied. Not that the policeman murdered Brown.

How many investigators do you want in order to accept a not guilty determination? I suspect all the available ones on the earth would not make you happy if the policeman is found not guilty. While the family's nonsensical lawyer's remarks are enough for your guilty verdict.


----------



## kasilofhome

Mo, I have tried the diagram as you said and I can see what you are sayin. If the first statement was even closed the the truth....I mean he was not shot in the back. If the cop was not wounded, if there was not staring in a video just moments before, if he did not have a record, I could put some weight on the hands up surrendering idea. But facts are already accepted even parts supported by by his family.... 

I do not think his pass record supports him being non aggressive with the policeman. Choice he made even to the point of pairing up with Dorian who's false claims of him being shot in the back. He paid with his life for his choices in life. He is no hero. Best he can be is a poster adult of what bad choices can cost.


----------



## mmoetc

where I want to said:


> I just read a bit in the NYT online where a casual mention that Brown was "no angel" brought down rants and abuse on the writer. Frankly the idea of so many seems to be that, despite much evidence that he had moments of aggression beyond the store video, it is racist to even hint that he was anything but an angel.
> 
> Anything that can faintly be interpreted as supporting the policeman's actions will result in more rants and possibly violence. The very fact that everything has not been released to the press simply means they have learned their lesson. It actually makes me think that there is such evidence.
> 
> Despite the call for justice, there is zero desire by the protesters for it. What they call justice is simply revenge because there is no hint that it is possible at all that the policeman committed murder and should be convicted immediately.
> 
> Your statements follow the same pattern despite your announcements of not having judged. You dismiss everything that does not support guilt and embrace things as proof that simply would never amount to proof.
> 
> You seemed fixed on the number of shots, which does not prove anything at all. Brown could have been a raging maniac and been shot six times or he could be innocent as a lamb and be shot six times. You say the police report could be riddled with lies or be truthful, but without the context, you don't know. All it would mean is that it could be unreliable as evidence or useful as evidence. Even lying on a police report does not prove guilt except that the writer lied. Not that the policeman murdered Brown.
> 
> How many investigators do you want in order to accept a not guilty determination? I suspect all the available ones on the earth would not make you happy if the policeman is found not guilty. While the family's nonsensical lawyer's remarks are enough for your guilty verdict.


I read the same piece in the Times and had a bit of the same reaction as you. But I understand some of the reaction. Ask yourself why the reaction in Ferguson turned violent while the choke-hold death in NYC produced peaceful protests. Could it be more tied to the actions if the authorities and the the trust even the minority community in New York has that that incident will be investigated fairly and openly. I've pointed out before that the protests in Ferguson are about much more than the Michael Brown shooting. It was just the straw that broke the camel's back in a community that has had issues with its PD for years. No matter when information comes out exonerating the officer comes out ,if it does, some will not believe it and some will act out violently. The longer and more secretive the investigation, the more room for doubt.

You point the finger at me for doubting any evidence of the police officer's innocence. Why wouldn't I doubt it when it has cornerstones like fake CT scans? I don't dismiss police reports out of hand, I do doubt police departments that don't release full reports as required by law. I'll ask you this, why are you do quick to believe the "evidence" of Officer Wilson's righteousness, including the CT scan, when you've proven to be a skeptic on so much government action elsewhere?

I've asked one question about the number of shots fired. Hardly an obsession but it is a fundamental question. Assuming the magazine held more than seven bullets, the number of shots fired might tell us a bit about the officer's state of mind. Did he blindly empty the magazine or did he exhibit target discipline? Or, since one shot has been alleged to been fired in the cruiser and six shots hit Brown, were seven shots even fired which would back up the officer's story. All I ask are fundamental answers to fundamental questions and done semblance of openness in this investigation. I don't care how many investigators there are. I have no vested interest in any outcome. I won't win or lose no matter what the outcome. I'll keep asking questions of those sure they "know".


----------



## MO_cows

mmoetc said:


> I read the same piece in the Times and had a bit of the same reaction as you. But I understand some of the reaction. Ask yourself why the reaction in Ferguson turned violent while the choke-hold death in NYC produced peaceful protests. Could it be more tied to the actions if the authorities and the the trust even the minority community in New York has that that incident will be investigated fairly and openly. I've pointed out before that the protests in Ferguson are about much more than the Michael Brown shooting. It was just the straw that broke the camel's back in a community that has had issues with its PD for years. No matter when information comes out exonerating the officer comes out ,if it does, some will not believe it and some will act out violently. The longer and more secretive the investigation, the more room for doubt.
> 
> You point the finger at me for doubting any evidence of the police officer's innocence. Why wouldn't I doubt it when it has cornerstones like fake CT scans? I don't dismiss police reports out of hand, I do doubt police departments that don't release full reports as required by law. I'll ask you this, why are you do quick to believe the "evidence" of Officer Wilson's righteousness, including the CT scan, when you've proven to be a skeptic on so much government action elsewhere?
> 
> I've asked one question about the number of shots fired. Hardly an obsession but it is a fundamental question. Assuming the magazine held more than seven bullets, the number of shots fired might tell us a bit about the officer's state of mind. Did he blindly empty the magazine or did he exhibit target discipline? Or, since one shot has been alleged to been fired in the cruiser and six shots hit Brown, were seven shots even fired which would back up the officer's story. All I ask are fundamental answers to fundamental questions and done semblance of openness in this investigation. I don't care how many investigators there are.* I have no vested interest in any outcome. I won't win or lose no matter what the outcome. * I'll keep asking questions of those sure they "know".


For someone who isn't interested, there sure has been a lot of time and energy expended to paint the police in a bad light!


----------



## mmoetc

MO_cows said:


> For someone who isn't interested, there sure has been a lot of time and energy expended to paint the police in a bad light!


I didn't say I wasn't interested. I did say I had no vested interest in the outcome. It's funny how asking for openness and pointing out things like blatantly false stories put forth in the officer's defense is seen as an attempt to paint the police department in a bad light. They do quite well at that without my help. If the investigation leads to charges it won't change my life one whit. I won't jump up and down in joy claiming my righteousness. Likewise if he is exonerated. I won't hang my head a slink away in defeat. I will keep asking questions about this and other incidents and try to keep an open mind and see where the evidence leads.


----------



## HDRider

They are now suggesting more than six shots were fired. I am not sure how that changes the debate.


----------



## mmoetc

HDRider said:


> They are now suggesting more than six shots were fired. I am not sure how that changes the debate.


http://m.stltoday.com/news/multimed...5579-9c2b-7e4c2f831941.html?mobile_touch=true

Here's an interview with one of the first witnesses. Her account could support either side depending on which ear one listens with. The relevant part here is whether you believe Michael Brown turned to surrender after being shot at while fleeing or whether he turned to attack. Did Officer Wilson shoot someone who was surrendering and no longer a threat, or did he have legitimate reason to feel continued threat from Brown and was justified in continuing to fire? How many shots and in what order they were fired refines the time line.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

HDRider said:


> They are now suggesting more than six shots were fired. I am not sure how that changes the debate.


Yep if he was staying with training it would been even number . :awh:


----------



## mmoetc

Just found this: http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/26/us/michael-brown-ferguson-shooting/. Make of it what you will.


----------



## kasilofhome

mmoetc said:


> It's good that you "know" all these things about what happened in Ferguson that day. Care to show me the official reports and statements from the authorities that state these events for the record. Many on the other side "knew" in the immediate aftermath that Brown was shot while standing still with his hands up. I don't "know" much about what actually happened. It would seem that if it were so straight forward and simple it wouldn't take a couple of months of grand jury testimony, which is what is being reported today, to resolve. We could just let those who "know" decide.





mmoetc said:


> Just found this: http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/26/us/michael-brown-ferguson-shooting/. Make of it what you will.





Read it......States in the article unconfirmed .....article also reconfirmed that Dorian not only lied t
With his statement to officers with Brown's death but the he has lied to cops before. Note, Mike chose the hang with dorian, and Mike has a prior legal issue.

The FBI need to do what the do to verify and the lawyer making the assumptions is a lawyer doing his job in search of any info that might create a shadow of doubt. So often giving the public tained in verified a story can misdirected emotional people to support a falsehood.

Your seem desperate to seek a quick solution that expedites a the cop as being out of control and racist. Slow down and view if that sources that you seek are biased towards that bent and ask why you are avoiding Mike Brown's actions, choices,and his personal prior record so as to have a peek into to the character of the man who died and not his looks....race.


----------



## mmoetc

kasilofhome said:


> Read it......States in the article unconfirmed .....article also reconfirmed that Dorian not only lied t
> With his statement to officers with Brown's death but the he has lied to cops before. Note, Mike chose the hang with dorian, and Mike has a prior legal issue.
> 
> The FBI need to do what the do to verify and the lawyer making the assumptions is a lawyer doing his job in search of any info that might create a shadow of doubt. So often giving the public tained in verified a story can misdirected emotional people to support a falsehood.
> 
> Your seem desperate to seek a quick solution that expedites a the cop as being out of control and racist. Slow down and view if that sources that you seek are biased towards that bent and ask why you are avoiding Mike Brown's actions, choices,and his personal prior record so as to have a peek into to the character of the man who died and not his looks....race.


Tainted, biased reports like the aforementioned CT scan which so many jumped on as evidence of an out of control Michael Brown? I've repeatedly said I've made no determination either way. I've questioned both sides accounts. Why the rush to believe the accounts supporting the officer even when they've been proven false. Why the sudden support of secrecy by government officials? Michael Brown's past cannot be ignored. But the officer knew none of this past when he fired the fatal shots. But maybe we should look at the officer's first police job with a force that was disbanded due to its misconduct largely based on race. Or is his past of limits?


----------



## MoonRiver

mmoetc said:


> http://m.stltoday.com/news/multimed...5579-9c2b-7e4c2f831941.html?mobile_touch=true
> 
> Here's an interview with one of the first witnesses. Her account could support either side depending on which ear one listens with. The relevant part here is whether you believe Michael Brown turned to surrender after being shot at while fleeing or whether he turned to attack. Did Officer Wilson shoot someone who was surrendering and no longer a threat, or did he have legitimate reason to feel continued threat from Brown and was justified in continuing to fire? How many shots and in what order they were fired refines the time line.


There is the possibility he couldn't see clearly enough to determine whether Brown was attacking or surrendering.


----------



## MoonRiver

mmoetc said:


> Tainted, biased reports like the aforementioned CT scan which so many jumped on as evidence of an out of control Michael Brown? I've repeatedly said I've made no determination either way. I've questioned both sides accounts. Why the rush to believe the accounts supporting the officer even when they've been proven false. Why the sudden support of secrecy by government officials? Michael Brown's past cannot be ignored. But the officer knew none of this past when he fired the fatal shots. But maybe we should look at the officer's first police job with a force that was disbanded due to its misconduct largely based on race. Or is his past of limits?


Why hasn't the media made any attempt to talk to Mike Brown's former classmates and friends to find out what kind of guy he was? They research the cop and even go to his house but have no interest in learning anything about Mike Brown.

And how do you know the officer didn't know Mike Brown had just robbed a store? I have heard both that he did know and didn't know. I heard that he didn't know when he 1st stopped Mike, but then heard the report over the radio which was why he went back to him.


----------



## kasilofhome

Mo, his family owned up to their adults son's prior run in with the law. They also admitted that it was their son in the video. What do the info guide you to the personal character of Mike Brown who also chose to hang with another ....Dorian who also has had prior documented issues with the law. Would you if you have a daughter be seeking Mike Brown as a suite for your daughter? 

Mike brown made choices we all do did he choose the path that would improve his life or not.


----------



## mmoetc

MoonRiver said:


> There is the possibility he couldn't see clearly enough to determine whether Brown was attacking or surrendering.


Based on what?


----------



## HDRider

mmoetc said:


> Based on what?


Seriously?


----------



## mmoetc

MoonRiver said:


> There is the possibility he couldn't see clearly enough to determine whether Brown was attacking or surrendering.





HDRider said:


> Seriously?


Absolutely seriously. Based on the infamous CT scan? Based on the reports that X-rays at the hospital showed no damage? Based on the video of him walking around shortly after the shooting showing no obvious signs of distress and the officer interacting with him showing no concern for the condition of his face.

Now I'll ask the follow up question of all those combat shooting experts out there. If your vision was as impaired as some would have us believe is it a prudent and advised course of action to be pursuing someone running from you and firing your weapon?


----------



## kasilofhome

Bluntly.....eye vision varies from person to person. I know that though I have prescription eyewear there have been recent times when the script was dated and liked my site.

Obstacles in the way

And the limelight impact of a staving media


----------



## kasilofhome

As for walking around after an injury.....my nine year old brother wiggled out of the arms of the man recused him from the fire .....I saw my brother quickly walk into to house and announced that he was burnt. Burned to the point that he remain in buffalo children's hospital for over two years. So badly burnt that transporting him to a whiners hospital was out if the question and when it was so many months had past that the hospital had no trouble with getting the best burn specialist from the globe to travel to buffalo to have a chance to work on him.

The docs explained my brother ability to even move was shock and adrenalin. 

Not all injuries to to the body are visible right after a trauma. Bruising takes time for blood to pool and oxygen to be used up to display colour difference, bone unless protruding out of the body can be undetected.


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## MoonRiver

mmoetc said:


> Based on what?


Let me hit you in the eye and then you can tell me what it is based on.


----------



## mmoetc

MoonRiver said:


> Let me hit you in the eye and then you can tell me what it is based on.


And what is your proof he was hit in the eye. And what of my second question? If your eyesight is that impaired should you really be running down the street firing a weapon at someone running ways from you?


----------



## mmoetc

kasilofhome said:


> As for walking around after an injury.....my nine year old brother wiggled out of the arms of the man recused him from the fire .....I saw my brother quickly walk into to house and announced that he was burnt. Burned to the point that he remain in buffalo children's hospital for over two years. So badly burnt that transporting him to a whiners hospital was out if the question and when it was so many months had past that the hospital had no trouble with getting the best burn specialist from the globe to travel to buffalo to have a chance to work on him.
> 
> The docs explained my brother ability to even move was shock and adrenalin.
> 
> Not all injuries to to the body are visible right after a trauma. Bruising takes time for blood to pool and oxygen to be used up to display colour difference, bone unless protruding out of the body can be undetected.



I'll agree, adrenaline and heat of the moment can do strange things. But you can't have it both ways. Either he could see to safely fire his weapon or he couldn't. Which is it?


----------



## MO_cows

mmoetc said:


> I didn't say I wasn't interested. I did say I had no vested interest in the outcome. It's funny how asking for openness and pointing out things like blatantly false stories put forth in the officer's defense is seen as an attempt to paint the police department in a bad light. They do quite well at that without my help. If the investigation leads to charges it won't change my life one whit. I won't jump up and down in joy claiming my righteousness. Likewise if he is exonerated. I won't hang my head a slink away in defeat. I will keep asking questions about this and other incidents and try to keep an open mind and see where the evidence leads.


Well if all the internet Perry Masons, the civil rights so-called leaders, the sensationalizing media, all the people who were in the vicinity that day and can't resist getting their own 15 minutes of fame, and everybody else who has zero official capacity in the case -- but plenty of theories and opinions -- would just sit down, shut up and wait for the investigation to run its course, I think we'd all be better off.

Open mind? Coulda fooled me.


----------



## MoonRiver

mmoetc said:


> And what is your proof he was hit in the eye. And what of my second question? If your eyesight is that impaired should you really be running down the street firing a weapon at someone running ways from you?


Would you necessarily know? 

His adrenalin is pumping and he might not have even realized he was injured. He starts pursuit and fires 6 shots. If his vision was OK, there is no way he would have not brought Mike Brown down with 6 shots. But apparently he didn't.


----------



## nchobbyfarm

mmoetc said:


> Just found this: http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/26/us/michael-brown-ferguson-shooting/. Make of it what you will.


There is no way this recording is real. I listened to it repeatedly. His voice and inflection, the proximity to the shots for them to be recorded, and the delay in bringing it forward.


----------



## nchobbyfarm

mmoetc said:


> And what is your proof he was hit in the eye. And what of my second question? If your eyesight is that impaired should you really be running down the street firing a weapon at someone running ways from you?


Is there verified proof he fired while the suspect was running away from him? I have only seen proof he was facing the officer when shots were fired.


----------



## haypoint

In March of this year, I was in an accident. My face hit a tree. I received a 2 inch cut, to the skull. The sinus in my forehead was crushed. The sinus area on my left side was crushed. The bone under and beside my left eye was broken. I got up, evaluated the situation and ran to the house to get help. I made a full recovery, thanks for caring. 
I have a real life, recent, first hand experience with what a person can do with serious facial trauma. Not sure if that makes me an expert or not. But, I believe that a cop can receive a facial beating and see well enough and be aware enough to use both good judgment and good aim. 
Not to diminish the tragic loss of a life, but if Brown was as far away as some say, that's a darn fine group of shots for a pistol at 35 feet and perhaps a moving target.


----------



## kasilofhome

mmoetc said:


> I'll agree, adrenaline and heat of the moment can do strange things. But you can't have it both ways. Either he could see to safely fire his weapon or he couldn't. Which is it?


I can see where both the cop and Mike Brown were dealing with adrenaline in their system.

Mike in survival mode. He knew is record....he knew he just attacked a person an there is a cop. Cops have the authority to stop a nd question people acting out of place....he knew he had pot.... he knew that before heading off to college he had a court appearance yet to face. I can see him beeping pumped.... heck. Having been stop by cops I get pumped and rush to try and remember......did I put that darn insurance card in the glove box .....got stopped and the app works only when there are bars on one's phone learned that a card in the glove box works without bars on one's phone.


The cop did not wake up saying gee I hope to run into I person who is willing to cause me bodily harm. I do not care how well armed one is most people avoid a beating when the can. So both could be pumped

Might be why Mike did not stop till dead and why the cop shot off as he did. Even Dorian lieing might be in part a survival method to avoid responsibility of events .

I just know that there are better folks out there to be role models to people than Mike, al or Jessie to me preacher to the bottom rung will never raise people up.


----------



## where I want to

And this is an example of your bias. You, like the protesters, only raise questions about anything given as support to the policeman. And you use rumors and innuedo to do it. You never question anything that appears to be damaging to the policeman, such as the friend's statement about the policeman trying to drag Brown into the police car or the Brown family lawyer stating the autopsy shows Brown was kneeling with his arms raised. 
So you question why this policeman would shoot a man who was surrendering, as if it is established, when there is nothing but conflicting statements to go on that Brown was doing that. There is no chance of rational discussion with a person who accepts the unproven as gospel as long as it fits what he wants yet dismisses or passes over anything that might support the policema, assuming it is fraud committed by the police.


----------



## haypoint

Sad that the most significant thing anybody in that community ever did was to get shot by a white cop. Brown is the biggest star that town ever had.:hrm:


----------



## HDRider

haypoint said:


> Sad that the most significant thing anybody in that community ever did was to get shot by a white cop. Brown is the biggest star that town ever had.:hrm:


Maybe not...
http://www.msnbc.com/the-ed-show/watch/ferguson-captured-the-attention-of-the-country-321929283934


----------



## MO_cows

Isn't that Chuck Berry's old stomping grounds?


----------



## haypoint

The self appointed Black leaders are using this tragedy to bolster Black Unity. They are organizing groups to go door to door and register everyone to vote. Sadly, Black Unity for many is a segregating force and when one group of people vote at far greater percentages than other groups, the voice of others gets stifled. Not a complaint, just an observation.


----------



## nchobbyfarm

where I want to said:


> And this is an example of your bias. You, like the protesters, only raise questions about anything given as support to the policeman. And you use rumors and innuedo to do it. You never question anything that appears to be damaging to the policeman, such as the friend's statement about the policeman trying to drag Brown into the police car or the Brown family lawyer stating the autopsy shows Brown was kneeling with his arms raised.
> So you question why this policeman would shoot a man who was surrendering, as if it is established, when there is nothing but conflicting statements to go on that Brown was doing that. There is no chance of rational discussion with a person who accepts the unproven as gospel as long as it fits what he wants yet dismisses or passes over anything that might support the policema, assuming it is fraud committed by the police.


Come again? I questioned another's statement that the policeman shot at the suspect running away when there is no proof that any shots were fired while his back was toward the officer. Exactly how does my asking for proof of the shots being fired at the suspects back support the use of rumors?


----------



## haypoint

If anyone is running low on speculation or bias, youtube will give you enough information to choke a goat. Check it out.


----------



## mmoetc

nchobbyfarm said:


> Is there verified proof he fired while the suspect was running away from him? I have only seen proof he was facing the officer when shots were fired.


I have no evidence that is what happened. Of course none if us have any real evidence of what happened. It's speculation on my part based on some reported alleged witness testimony. It could be as the officer's friend reported to the radio station and Officer Wilson may have been stationary beside his vehicle when Brown turned. But I was responding to someone who claimed his vision was so impaired he could not tell whether Brown might have been surrendering or attacking. The basis of my question still stands. Should a police officer open fire when his vision is as impaired as was implied.


----------



## mmoetc

haypoint said:


> In March of this year, I was in an accident. My face hit a tree. I received a 2 inch cut, to the skull. The sinus in my forehead was crushed. The sinus area on my left side was crushed. The bone under and beside my left eye was broken. I got up, evaluated the situation and ran to the house to get help. I made a full recovery, thanks for caring.
> I have a real life, recent, first hand experience with what a person can do with serious facial trauma. Not sure if that makes me an expert or not. But, I believe that a cop can receive a facial beating and see well enough and be aware enough to use both good judgment and good aim.
> Not to diminish the tragic loss of a life, but if Brown was as far away as some say, that's a darn fine group of shots for a pistol at 35 feet and perhaps a moving target.


I wasn't the one speculating that the officer's vision was impaired and offering it as some sort of excuse for his actions. I just asked for proof of his injuries and asked whether if his vision was that impaired if it was a prudent action to be discharging his weapon. As usual I've been criticized for asking questions which investigators will ask and I'm sure the attornies the Brown family has hired will ask. As usual I've gotten no answers.


----------



## haypoint

mmoetc said:


> I wasn't the one speculating that the officer's vision was impaired and offering it as some sort of excuse for his actions. I just asked for proof of his injuries and asked whether if his vision was that impaired if it was a prudent action to be discharging his weapon. As usual I've been criticized for asking questions which investigators will ask and I'm sure the attornies the Brown family has hired will ask. As usual I've gotten no answers.


Hope you didn't take my comments as personal attacks on you. It isn't always about you. I was just clearing up speculation about judgment and abilities of people with facial trauma. I received injuries and I could see and think. That's all.

You find it odd that there isn't any Grand Jury investigating the 5 white cops killed by Black men in the past few months? No outcry by Jessie or Al? No riots and no Presidential comments?


----------



## where I want to

nchobbyfarm said:


> Come again? I questioned another's statement that the policeman shot at the suspect running away when there is no proof that any shots were fired while his back was toward the officer. Exactly how does my asking for proof of the shots being fired at the suspects back support the use of rumors?


Oops- picked up the wrong quote somehow. Sorry.


----------



## MoonRiver

haypoint said:


> Hope you didn't take my comments as personal attacks on you. It isn't always about you. I was just clearing up speculation about judgment and abilities of people with facial trauma. I received injuries and I could see and think. That's all.


A face injury and an eye injury are not necessarily the same thing. If your dominant eye is injured, not only are vision and depth perception effected, but so is positional information.


----------



## mmoetc

haypoint said:


> Hope you didn't take my comments as personal attacks on you. It isn't always about you. I was just clearing up speculation about judgment and abilities of people with facial trauma. I received injuries and I could see and think. That's all.
> 
> You find it odd that there isn't any Grand Jury investigating the 5 white cops killed by Black men in the past few months? No outcry by Jessie or Al? No riots and no Presidential comments?


I don't consider criticism as a personal attack. I do tend to get frustrated that rather than answering questions that need to be answered many seem to question the questioner. There are many pieces of the story that we have heard that I could argue convincingly for from either side. That I choose to do it from a particular side sometimes just means that no one else here is and I think the alternative deserves airing. 

The likely reason no grand juries have been convened in the instances you sight is that the suspects have already been identified ,arrested, charged and are awaiting trial. The system is seen to be working and the people involved have trust in it. Had Michael Brown somehow wrestled the gun way from Officer Wilson,as some have suggested he tried, and shot and killed him do you think the DA would be convening a Grand Jury to investigate? As I've stated before, the reaction in Ferguson is as much about the history the community has with the police department and the PTB as it is about the death of one young man.


----------



## haypoint

"As I've stated before, the reaction in Ferguson is as much about the history the community has with the police department and the PTB as it is about the death of one young man. "
I disagree. While White majority in this country has a shadowy history in how some Blacks were treated by some Whites, some of the time, great strides have been made to correct that. So much effort, some would say as to look like a sort of guilt complex. 
We can teach a cat to scratch our door if we jump up and let the cat in or out as soon as the scratching starts. We have taught the Black community to complain about injustices, real and imagined.
Many urban Black communities are rocked by lawlessness. The Black community seems powerless to control the crimes. They are resigned to accept it. Perhaps some guilt that their people are so out of control.
The opportunity to point the finger the other way, at the White community, is rare. This opportunity must be milked for all its worth. It may not return for a while. But the real frosting on the cake is to have a White cop gun down a Black man. Wow. The desire to make this incident so large as to seem like White Cops have been murdering Blacks for no reason left and right for years. Sort of makes the fact that 17% of US society (Blacks) committing 75% of the violent crime seem justified or at least understandable.
Perhaps the Democrats can send more money into depressed urban areas to help these folks?

Ferguson doesn't have a history of White cops oppressing the Black community. If history is the cause it is the White flight that has changed Ferguson to a highly Black financially depressed town with a ballooning crime rate.The color of the community changed faster than the Police force and the Police Chief couldn't get Blacks to apply for Police work. Besides, harder to blame Cops when they are your same color.

Why is the death of a Black man by a White Cop so outrageous as to grab National attention, Presidential attention and comments and everything else surrounding Ferguson, but the death of a law enforcement officer at the hands of a Black man a non-event? Is the value of the White Cop somehow less than that of a Black felon?


----------



## mmoetc

haypoint said:


> "As I've stated before, the reaction in Ferguson is as much about the history the community has with the police department and the PTB as it is about the death of one young man. "
> I disagree. While White majority in this country has a shadowy history in how some Blacks were treated by some Whites, some of the time, great strides have been made to correct that. So much effort, some would say as to look like a sort of guilt complex.
> We can teach a cat to scratch our door if we jump up and let the cat in or out as soon as the scratching starts. We have taught the Black community to complain about injustices, real and imagined.
> Many urban Black communities are rocked by lawlessness. The Black community seems powerless to control the crimes. They are resigned to accept it. Perhaps some guilt that their people are so out of control.
> The opportunity to point the finger the other way, at the White community, is rare. This opportunity must be milked for all its worth. It may not return for a while. But the real frosting on the cake is to have a White cop gun down a Black man. Wow. The desire to make this incident so large as to seem like White Cops have been murdering Blacks for no reason left and right for years. Sort of makes the fact that 17% of US society (Blacks) committing 75% of the violent crime seem justified or at least understandable.
> Perhaps the Democrats can send more money into depressed urban areas to help these folks?
> 
> Ferguson doesn't have a history of White cops oppressing the Black community. If history is the cause it is the White flight that has changed Ferguson to a highly Black financially depressed town with a ballooning crime rate.The color of the community changed faster than the Police force and the Police Chief couldn't get Blacks to apply for Police work. Besides, harder to blame Cops when they are your same color.
> 
> Why is the death of a Black man by a White Cop so outrageous as to grab National attention, Presidential attention and comments and everything else surrounding Ferguson, but the death of a law enforcement officer at the hands of a Black man a non-event? Is the value of the White Cop somehow less than that of a Black felon?


I'll answer your last question first and I'll answer it the same way I answered it before. It is a non event because arrests have been made, charges filed and the system is seen to be working by those affected. Were the alleged cop killers walking around awaiting the results of a grand jury investigation do you think the reaction would be the same?

Now, to say the police force in Ferguson has no history with the black community ignores incidents like this. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...beating-charging-bleeding-THEIR-uniforms.html. It also ignores about 100 years of history of the St. Louis metro area and how predominantly white enclaves like Ferguson and many of the other 90 or so incorporated towns and villages came to be in St. Louis county and how they have historically operated. 

But please, continue to make it all about Michael Brown.


----------



## HDRider

And at Mondayâs funeral the Obama White House was represented by no less than three officials â three more than were sent to Margaret Thatcherâs funeral, and three more than were sent to the funeral of Maj. Gen. Harold Greene, slain in a green-on-blue attack in Afghanistan.


Surely, this will backfire on Obama â a recent CBS/New York Times poll showed him with just a 60 percent approval rating on Ferguson among blacks, which is a stark number considering his 85 percent approval rating overall with that community. If there was a political strategy â and certainly there was â to use Ferguson to drum up Democrat base support for the midterms, the payoff hasnât materialized.




Ferguson is a microcosm for the Leftâs governance. *In Ferguson, there is a thug culture that takes government largesse as a substitute for work and family, boils in a cauldron of racial animosity and identity politics, and explodes into vituperation and violence against property and life when the wages of entitlement and indolence are paid to a Michael Brown.* The public as a whole looks upon Ferguson with a mix of prurient fascination, disinterest, and exasperation with the constant race-mongering; there will be no grand bargains or game-changing results from yet another attempted race war in our streets.

http://spectator.org/articles/60314/spent-forces


----------



## mmoetc

HDRider said:


> And at Mondayâs funeral the Obama White House was represented by no less than three officials â three more than were sent to Margaret Thatcherâs funeral, and three more than were sent to the funeral of Maj. Gen. Harold Greene, slain in a green-on-blue attack in Afghanistan.
> 
> 
> Surely, this will backfire on Obama â a recent CBS/New York Times poll showed him with just a 60 percent approval rating on Ferguson among blacks, which is a stark number considering his 85 percent approval rating overall with that community. If there was a political strategy â and certainly there was â to use Ferguson to drum up Democrat base support for the midterms, the payoff hasnât materialized.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ferguson is a microcosm for the Leftâs governance. *In Ferguson, there is a thug culture that takes government largesse as a substitute for work and family, boils in a cauldron of racial animosity and identity politics, and explodes into vituperation and violence against property and life when the wages of entitlement and indolence are paid to a Michael Brown.* The public as a whole looks upon Ferguson with a mix of prurient fascination, disinterest, and exasperation with the constant race-mongering; there will be no grand bargains or game-changing results from yet another attempted race war in our streets.
> 
> http://spectator.org/articles/60314/spent-forces


I'm glad you could finally bring this around to an Obama Bash. It's long overdue. Does this mean you'll support Al Sharpton now when he agrees with you and calls for change from within his own community? http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/article/2552433

Or does it just excuse the treatment of Mr. Davis, falsely arrested, beaten, falsely charged. Or because he wasn't beaten quite hard enough according to the local magistrate can we just ignore it because by dint of his color he must be automatically suspected of being a part of that "thug culture" and subject to some special treatment.


----------



## HDRider

mmoetc said:


> I'm glad you could finally bring this around to an Obama Bash. It's long overdue. Does this mean you'll support Al Sharpton now when he agrees with you and calls for change from within his own community? http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/article/2552433
> 
> Or does it just excuse the treatment of Mr. Davis, falsely arrested, beaten, falsely charged. Or because he wasn't beaten quite hard enough according to the local magistrate can we just ignore it because by dint of his color he must be automatically suspected of being a part of that "thug culture" and subject to some special treatment.


Old Boy,
This has been at 0's feet since day one. You must learn to follow the bouncing ball.


----------



## haypoint

mmoetc said:


> I'm glad you could finally bring this around to an Obama Bash. It's long overdue. Does this mean you'll support Al Sharpton now when he agrees with you and calls for change from within his own community? http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/article/2552433
> 
> Or does it just excuse the treatment of Mr. Davis, falsely arrested, beaten, falsely charged. Or because he wasn't beaten quite hard enough according to the local magistrate can we just ignore it because by dint of his color he must be automatically suspected of being a part of that "thug culture" and subject to some special treatment.


You know less about the Davis incident than you do about Brown's incident. British news?


----------



## mmoetc

haypoint said:


> You know less about the Davis incident than you do about Brown's incident. British news?


Once again, criticism of me and the source provided rather than commentary on the incident itself or another source rebutting the one I posted.


----------



## haypoint

Just seemed that you were criticizing folks for making assumptions on the Ferguson incident, then excusing the Black population's reactions in Ferguson on a news report from the UK. Do you really think that had the incident happened as told in that report, we wouldn't have all heard about it? You can't dismiss all the NEWS reports out of Ferguson that don't agree with your version, and expect to support your version on a single UK report. 
Yo


----------



## mmoetc

haypoint said:


> Just seemed that you were criticizing folks for making assumptions on the Ferguson incident, then excusing the Black population's reactions in Ferguson on a news report from the UK. Do you really think that had the incident happened as told in that report, we wouldn't have all heard about it? You can't dismiss all the NEWS reports out of Ferguson that don't agree with your version, and expect to support your version on a single UK report.
> Yo


Which news reports have I dismissed? Other than that pesky CT scan which you can't seem to bring yourself to further comment on? And it just seems like unless the story supports your narrative you dismiss it out of hand. This wasn't just one report from a British source, a source that has been cited more than once in these forums, I first came across it a couple of weeks ago in numerous places. I have no problem with you saying it doesn't tell the whole story, I just ask you to prove it. Educate me. Cite your source for an alternative take. Or is this just another example of what others "know" and I should just accept?

As an aside, I'm fortunate that Wisconsin Public Radio broadcasts the BBC world feed early in the morning. Often while traveling it is this single British source that gives me the clearest picture of what's happening in the world.


----------



## Sawmill Jim

mmoetc said:


> I have no evidence that is what happened. Of course none if us have any real evidence of what happened. It's speculation on my part based on some reported alleged witness testimony. It could be as the officer's friend reported to the radio station and Officer Wilson may have been stationary beside his vehicle when Brown turned. But I was responding to someone who claimed his vision was so impaired he could not tell whether Brown might have been surrendering or attacking. The basis of my question still stands. Should a police officer open fire when his vision is as impaired as was implied.


Naw he should just yell for help while being beat to death:bow: Since Bishop Brown was up for saint hood they could just questioned him while he was lighting candles at the Church where he never missed a meeting :icecream:

And as to the many shots fired I know of a cop put 13, 9 mm in a guy before he went down cop was also shot guess that may of saved him lots of problems ,but am sure he had rather not been shot . Officer was on his second mag of ammo . :shrug:


----------



## HDRider

mmoetc said:


> Which news reports have I dismissed? Other than that pesky CT scan which you can't seem to bring yourself to further comment on? And it just seems like unless the story supports your narrative you dismiss it out of hand. This wasn't just one report from a British source, a source that has been cited more than once in these forums, I first came across it a couple of weeks ago in numerous places. I have no problem with you saying it doesn't tell the whole story, I just ask you to prove it. Educate me. Cite your source for an alternative take. Or is this just another example of what others "know" and I should just accept?
> 
> As an aside, I'm fortunate that Wisconsin Public Radio broadcasts the BBC world feed early in the morning. Often while traveling it is this single British source that gives me the clearest picture of what's happening in the world.


If you think the BBC is unbiased, then you don't think.


----------



## mmoetc

HDRider said:


> If you think the BBC is unbiased, then you don't think.


I don't, therefor I do. You'll note I never said they were without bias. I suppose I could rely solely on sources such as Fox , MSNBC or even the gatewaypundit.

Is it telling that you've gone from seeming to regret personal attacks to relying on them? How about finding that story that disproves the jailing and beating of Mr. Davis from one of your unbiased sources? Or maybe I should ask for multiple sources.


----------



## MO_cows

mmoetc said:


> I'm glad you could finally bring this around to an Obama Bash. It's long overdue. Does this mean you'll support Al Sharpton now when he agrees with you and calls for change from within his own community? http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/article/2552433
> 
> Or does it just excuse the treatment of Mr. Davis, falsely arrested, beaten, falsely charged. Or because he wasn't beaten quite hard enough according to the local magistrate can we just ignore it because by dint of his color he must be automatically suspected of being a part of that "thug culture" and subject to some special treatment.


I read the link and, as usual, Sharpton talked out of both sides of his mouth. He can pull a sound byte out of either part of his speech, depending which audience he is schmoozing at the moment. He can play the part where whites, the po-lice, and everyone conspired against poor Mikey Brown. Or, he can play the part where he rebuked blacks for their own behavior and lack of achievement. What does a self-serving, schizophrenic speech by a professional flim-flam man have to do with the facts of the case?


----------



## haypoint

Sawmill Jim said:


> Naw he should just yell for help while being beat to death:bow: Since Bishop Brown was up for saint hood they could just questioned him while he was lighting candles at the Church where he never missed a meeting :icecream:
> 
> And as to the many shots fired I know of a cop put 13, 9 mm in a guy before he went down cop was also shot guess that may of saved him lots of problems ,but am sure he had rather not been shot . Officer was on his second mag of ammo . :shrug:


Well that makes no sense. On TV, everyone collapses and dies from one shot to the right chest.:hysterical:


----------



## unregistered353870

haypoint said:


> Well that makes no sense. On TV, everyone collapses and dies from one shot to the right chest.:hysterical:


And sometimes they are thrown 5-10 feet from the impact of that one shot....


----------



## where I want to

haypoint said:


> Well that makes no sense. On TV, everyone collapses and dies from one shot to the right chest.:hysterical:


And look so picturesque while dead. Even the TV injured in the hospital look great- no massive swellings, drooling, unpleasant sounds, not even bed head hair. It's simply not allowed in the contract.


----------



## 7thswan

Looks like Brown might have been involved in a 2nd degree murder case.
http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/172...allegedly-involved-second-degree-murder-case/


----------



## ROSEMAMA

(Reuters) - The U.N. racism watchdog urged the United States on Friday to halt the excessive use of force by police after the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager by a white policeman touched off riots in Ferguson, Missouri.
Minorities, particularly African Americans, are victims of disparities, the U.N. Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) said after examining the U.S. record. 
"Racial and ethnic discrimination remains a serious and persistent problem in all areas of life from de facto school segregation, access to health care and housing," Noureddine Amir, CERD committee vice chairman, told a news briefing. (read more...)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/29/us-usa-missouri-shooting-un-idUSKBN0GT1ZQ20140829


Ok, I'm gonna try to not say anything that'll make Angie ban me but, OMG! Are these guys for REAL? All the things going on around the globe that are exponentially worse than what's going on, and they pick on little 'ole Missouri? 
I have renewed my opinion that the UN is as much an impotent entity as any of the ABC agencies in the US if not more so.


----------



## where I want to

ROSEMAMA said:


> (Reuters) - The U.N. racism watchdog urged the United States on Friday to halt the excessive use of force by police after the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager by a white policeman touched off riots in Ferguson, Missouri.
> Minorities, particularly African Americans, are victims of disparities, the U.N. Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) said after examining the U.S. record.
> "Racial and ethnic discrimination remains a serious and persistent problem in all areas of life from de facto school segregation, access to health care and housing," Noureddine Amir, CERD committee vice chairman, told a news briefing. (read more...)
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/29/us-usa-missouri-shooting-un-idUSKBN0GT1ZQ20140829
> 
> 
> Ok, I'm gonna try to not say anything that'll make Angie ban me but, OMG! Are these guys for REAL? All the things going on around the globe that are exponentially worse than what's going on, and they pick on little 'ole Missouri?
> I have renewed my opinion that the UN is as much an impotent entity as any of the ABC agencies in the US if not more so.


If Americans themselves, even the President, constantly carp on their own faults while the rest of the world piles on, do we have anyone to blame but ourselves and our media? We make that an acceptable position. 
We have a national whine going on- it's always someone else's fault when our stupidity lead to the natural consequenses. And then there is the lovely money held out by lawyers for almost any incompetent result.


----------



## Nate_in_IN

ROSEMAMA said:


> (Reuters) - The U.N. racism watchdog urged the United States on Friday to halt the excessive use of force by police after the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager by a white policeman touched off riots in Ferguson, Missouri.
> Minorities, particularly African Americans, are victims of disparities, the U.N. Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) said after examining the U.S. record.
> "Racial and ethnic discrimination remains a serious and persistent problem in all areas of life from de facto school segregation, access to health care and housing," Noureddine Amir, CERD committee vice chairman, told a news briefing. (read more...)
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/29/us-usa-missouri-shooting-un-idUSKBN0GT1ZQ20140829
> 
> 
> Ok, I'm gonna try to not say anything that'll make Angie ban me but, OMG! Are these guys for REAL? All the things going on around the globe that are exponentially worse than what's going on, and they pick on little 'ole Missouri?
> I have renewed my opinion that the UN is as much an impotent entity as any of the ABC agencies in the US if not more so.


Amazing how the UN has all the information and can reach a decision in this case before a Grand Jury.


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## ROSEMAMA

Maybe we should have them investigate the IRS scandal? I bet they could get those emails, and all?


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## HDRider

UNecessary


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## MO_cows

Well I'm sure everyone will breath a big sigh of relief to know that the Civil Rights division of the US Justice Department is launching a full scale investigation into the Ferguson police dept., according to radio news this AM. (note for the irony-impaired, this is sarcasm)

I don't know what bothers me more, this witch hunt in Ferguson, or the fact that we still staff and fund a federal "Civil Rights" division in 2014 in the first place. In the 1960s, 1970s, sure, we needed it. Today, they are creating cases where they don't really exist in order to justify their existence!

The Ferguson case gets more and more surreal as it goes. The first reports, an unarmed teenager with hands in the air, shot in the back by police, you betcha that is extremely alarming and you can understand the strong reaction, not condone the burning and looting of course, but at least understand why there would be rage. But as more and more information comes out, revealing those first reports to be totally untrue, some still seem to be convinced that Brown was murdered in cold blood and there needs to be "justice". Never mind due process, never mind getting to the true facts before making judgement, just a tunnel vision obsession with punishing that cop and, for lack of a better term, whitewashing the life and times of Michael Brown to make him appear less an out of control punk, and more an innocent martyr. 

Meanwhile, another 18 year old was shot and killed by police in Ottawa, Kansas the following week. There were multiple cops on the scene, seems like they could have physically subdued him, but instead they put a whole bunch of bullets into him. Why aren't people marching in the street for that kid? Why isn't the Justice Department sticking its nose into that one?


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## where I want to

I wonder how much personal risk that people expect the police to take in managing a violent person. If there are enough police to "pile" on such a citizen, even if they are willing to take the risk, that does not guarantee that it will prevent death. There has been the stories alleging racial bias where a black man died because police used muscle to subdue him. 
I have seen stories claiming racial bias in a case where a man with mental problems was attacking people in cars, a fireman and his two young children were held temporarily when they happened to stop at a closed gas station where the door was left open, people were stopped for vehicle violations, etc.
There are way to many complaints of racial bias for them all to be true but way too many complaints for them all to be untrue.
I was on a jury where a woman was fighting a drunk driving charge and she claimed the policeman targeted her because her husband had threatened him months earlier. Later the policeman was brought in and questioned. When the defense attorney asked about this the policeman responded "who is her husband?" The people arrested come with their prejudices too.


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