# HUGE developing story!!! This will change life in the USA.



## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

OIL will no longer be priced in dollars. This is a huge and devastating blow to the USA. It will mean that your life will change. Get ready folks. 

It was on Drudge... As a Rumor.

Now the UK independent has put it out as a business story. Get your house in order. Expect all imports to rise as the international demand for our currency falls.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/the-demise-of-the-dollar-1798175.html


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## Kmac15 (May 19, 2007)

OH Pukker Nuts.
This is not good, hope everyone gets their heating oil early


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Well...

Not to be unexpected... but what it will promote is the North American currency... or maybe the America's Currency a bunch of N. American and S. American countries uniting in currency, open borders, etc.

Neither is good for us.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2009)

The American economy would probably collapse...


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Let me point out a few facts gleaned from various websites.

"With diesel priced at $2.00 per gallon, fuel cost for a 70-Hp tractor is estimated at $6.13 per hour, while fuel for a 100-Hp tractor costs $8.76 per hour and fuel for a 150-Hp tractor costs $13.14 per hour.

Fuel cost for corn planted following plowing, discing, and cultivating is estimated at $14.17/acre. While fuel cost for no-till corn is estimated at only $9.14." - from the extension office of Tennessee

According to the Canadian board of agriculture's website, the expected revenue from an acre of corn is $120 (if you don't own the land). (Corn farmers, is that roughly accurate?)

Now what happens if the currency they decide to use is the Euro or the Yen, both of which have a significantly higher trading value?

You're looking at probably $15-20 per gallon of diesel fuel, assuming we can get it at all. Remember, the world's supplies are limited and we could be outbid by China or Russia.

Now multiply that $14/acre by a factor of ten (the difference between $2 diesel and $20 diesel). What would an acre of corn now need to earn in revenue in order for corn farmers to keep their land and their equipment? My mathematical skills are not adequate to predict how that increased cost of corn would ripple up the food chain, but in a downturn economy where many Americans are ALREADY having a hard time putting food on the table ... I don't think it would be a nice situation.


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

This was discussed back in Aug/Sept. Seems the oil nations no longer want to trade for dollars, especially since Greenspan advised them to switch. Iran has also been pushing for the switch also. From what I have read, Iraq was getting ready to switch prior to the invasion.


.


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## DianeWV (Feb 1, 2007)

I just about choked on my cup of tea when I read this.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2009)

If the dollar bottoms out, there WILL be hungry people, because we import more than half our food. 

Think of it- the dollar weakens, but currency in the other countries strengthen. That means a dollar will be able to buy much less food than it does now. Less food coming in = more hungry people.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

I can't say this wasn't unexpected. The next big question is how long will other nations (mainly China) hold onto their dollars before they dump them? I think things are going to be pretty bleak in the years ahead. Recovery my foot...


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## farmwife (Jan 6, 2006)

We won't recover! Look out now!


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

Wow! How long before this touches prices with petroleum products? It is in so much of everything..... could we make a list? Besides gas, what is this going to touch, and could it happen soon?


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2009)

InHisName said:


> Wow! How long before this touches prices with petroleum products? It is in so much of everything..... could we make a list? Besides gas, what is this going to touch, and could it happen soon?


Food production: growing it, delivering it, etc.

Electricity (diesel to move the coal supplies), which in turn powers water supplies (moves and pumps it into water towers) and a thousand other essential services.

Impossible to list everything, but it would be like a domino effect.

I expect there would be rolling blackouts, sporadic gas supply at the pumps, interrupted delivery of food and goods to the stores, businesses would shut down when workers can't afford to get to work, hundreds of other adverse effects on life as we currently know it.

And think how the hospitals would be affected!! And emergency services!


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## Possumcat (Oct 2, 2008)

It looks like we have 9 years to prepare for this (did I read that right? 2018?) so if that's the case, we all have a good head start.


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## DianeWV (Feb 1, 2007)

It doesn't look like this is a rumor.:shrug: Reuters is reporting on this as well.
I did see where it looks like it might be a 9 year transition period???? Maybe someone here knows how to link up the story.

This doesn't look good. Not at all.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Looks as if this forum and us need to get into over drive. And there will be more folks coming to find out what we can educate them, help them.

Oh my.

Angie


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2009)

Possumcat said:


> It looks like we have 9 years to prepare for this (did I read that right? 2018?) so if that's the case, we all have a good head start.


I've been around long enough to see how people are, and even if they see the problem (which most won't), they will wait until the last minute to try to do something about it for their own personal situations.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I have been reading about this for several years. I have towonder if it is just a scare or if someone wants something from us.


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## Palmetto1 (Sep 15, 2009)

OK, I read the reports. So the ball is in motion...how best to prepare?


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

What 'will' the Chinese do with all those dollars they're holding onto now?

Before we as a country crash, hopefully we'll nationalize all of the assets owned by foreigners.

And give em the one finger answer next time some petty dictator wants to enslave their women and children. Of course, Russia and China will be happy... all the smaller countries might not like it... Hey, if we're bankrupt, we can't save your carcasses.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2009)

Here's what I'm afraid will be a result: 

USA's economy will bottom out; anarchy will rule society.

China will become the new Superpower.

We will be very, very vulnerable.

MANY power hungry countries don't like us and would love to show us up.

Draw your own conclusions from that point.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

They have been making noises about the printing that will devalue the dollar. I have to say they are right. We are pumping out dollars as fast as the printing machine can make them, and flooding the world with worthless pieces of paper. On top of that we've been borrowing from around the world like crazy, spending money like it was water. It's almost as if we have been pushing them into a corner to force them to dump the dollar. What else would anyone expect them to do?


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## DianeWV (Feb 1, 2007)

Callieslamb said:


> I have been reading about this for several years. I have towonder if it is just a scare or if someone wants something from us.



Yes, could very well be. This "talk" has been going on for some years. What did grab my attention with this new story was that Gulf Arabs (along with Russia, China, Japan and France I believe) are moving to a basket of currencies (Yen,Yuan, Euro, Gold) AND "new, unifed currency" planned for Gulf nations of Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhib, Kuwait and Qatar. It does look like they are attempting to put in some definitive timelines.:shrug: If I'm reading that right.

But who knows? Might be smoke.:shrug: It's an interesting read.


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## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

This is quite a watershed moment. You should see all the posts over at treeofliberty.com on this.

Sure wish I had my property in NM sold already. But then again, it is a nice rural place, in Catron county, and has a lot going for it as a prep place. I just may divide it up into 9-10 acre parcels and see who wants to buy it then.

Gas is going up tomorrow I bet, better fill your gas cans tonight. I am fixing to leave now.


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## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

Before anyone panics here; China is already a superpower and so many disparate countries jumping into a mixed bag of currencies to value the price of oil sounds like a mess for them. You can hedge against this by diversifying including gold but the dollar isnt going away. Right now we have enjoyed controlling the worlds economy to a large extent (since the end of WWII) and the biggest story here IMO is the loss of influence that will occur.

A lot can happen between now and 2018 and if anyone wants to invest in the Yen, Rubble, or Euro then knock yourself out; I am sticking with the US Dollar. Maybe this will prompt some discussion about going back on the gold standard.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2009)

salmonslayer said:


> Before anyone panics here; China is already a superpower


"*A*" superpower is not the same as "*The*" Superpower.


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## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

> "A" superpower is not the same as "The" Superpower.


 Thus my concern that we will lose influence as a result of all of this.


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## Ryan NC (Jan 29, 2009)

ladycat said:


> If the dollar bottoms out, there WILL be hungry people, because we import more than half our food.
> 
> Think of it- the dollar weakens, but currency in the other countries strengthen. That means a dollar will be able to buy much less food than it does now. Less food coming in = more hungry people.


This unfortunately doesn't surprise me, it does scare me a bit, more than likely it simply means that before 2018 we'll be using a different currency. . . This has been happening the world over for the last 10 years as the world market develops. Why should we be any different? 

Ladycat, you need to check your facts, the US is still the largest EXPORTER of food products in the world. This has been changing to an extent as we import more and more exotic foods and finished food products from over seas. When push comes to shove RAW food is one of the most critical assets that a country can produce, I hope like heck that this means that the government will finally stop what amounts to price regulating of food items and make it so that farmers can make a living again!

If oil prices multiply by 10 so will food prices, this is the start of mass inflation IMHO. Not a dooms day device planted by the Chinese government simply a reset of the purchasing power of a paper dollar... I've never been a believer in gold or silver up until things started going awry in 2007, barter items I believe are a great assets in place of cash for the coming years if the SHTF so to speak with the dollar. Physical assets are still going to have value! Have you tried to purchase ammunition lately? Many people are stocking up for unknown reason on many things. . .


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

salmonslayer said:


> Thus my concern that we will lose influence as a result of all of this.


I'd say we lost our influence when BO made his world tour apologizing for America, and if that wasn't enough he stabbed our allies in the back by eliminating the missile defense system that was intended to protect them and us. 

The rest of the world has already wrote us off as idiots with a leader who doesn't have the guts or brains to lead the country, let alone influence the world. The only thing left is to see who will emerge as the new super power, and how many smaller countries will flex their muscles creating how much damage in the meantime. 

Our only hope is to get him out of office and elect someone who has the experience and wisdom to lead us back to the front of the pack. The question is: "is it already too late?"



Ryan NC said:


> ...Ladycat, you need to check your facts, the US is still the largest EXPORTER of food products in the world. . .


We are producing food the same way most people live.... paycheck to paycheck... one bad harvest and there will be a shortage for our own country and nothing to export. And don't forget we just lost 12% of production in Cali. I guess it's more important to kill off those fresh water fish by dumping them in salt water (they are diverting the water into the ocean) than it is to produce food and save jobs. Oh, and I haven't heard lately what's going on with the fruit trees in FL. Was it a fungus that was killing them off? Drought in Texas has taken a tole, and floods in the midwest and the southeast, and now in Texas too. Between the floods and drought (including gov created drought), we'll be lucky to have enough to feed our own, let alone exporting any.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I think the worries over the economy are bad enough, but not deep enough. It won't be anarchy, because it is all carefully planned. I believe the plan is to transition us into an economic collapse that will end with us as the North American Union (or something like that) participating in One World government and fully a socialist/Marxist nation. Now, most of that is already done - not in progress but DONE. The question is, will we tolerate that? Seems that we already have. 

I look at this and ask God what He thinks about it and I know it is all horrible to Him, that this is another step towards bringing down His wrath. Although that must come, it is up to those that love God to stand against it, to refuse to revel in and join to this world in its mad descent. I don't know what action there is for a middle aged woman to take, but I do know that I can't enjoy being a part of it and I ask my God to deliver me from this world.... and that includes that He will deliver me TO this world, but just please I don't want to be found in union to the horrible things that men are doing today. 

There, now you all will think I am totally nuts, but that's ok.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

China is only a super power because it has an ungoddly number of foot soldiers. It's gdp is less than a third that of the USA. Japan is #2 Only the Europak has a greater GDP as a calcuable number and while that is a problem due to the Eurodollar. Free trade ensures demand for the currency so courting countries like Brazil and India as favoured trading partners would counter-act the slide.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

stanb999 said:


> OIL will no longer be priced in dollars. This is a huge and devastating blow to the USA. It will mean that your life will change. Get ready folks.


Why is this single fact such a big issue. You convert the dollar to whatever the currency is and pay for the oil. 


If Oil is USD $100 a barrel, Why would paying 683.640 Chinese Yuan for the same barrel change the pump price? The price is the same either way after conversion.


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

Reuters is reporting that this is a false rumor.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE59507620091006

This comes up every few years and gets shot down. I wouldn't panic yet.


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

good heavens. stop panicking.

I'd see it as quite possibly a good thing. 

We've become so bloody dependent on other countries for EVERYthing that this could force the US into going back to what made it great in the first place...innovation.

We have huge amounts of oil offshore...but the government doesn't want to let them drill it because of pressure from tourism and various states. We also have oil fields in Alaska that haven't been tapped because of animal rights and environmentalists. We have shale oil which they're already gearing up to extract.

Tractors. Any tractor that's diesel can run on veggie oil. We can grow OUR OWN veggie oil. Rape seems to be the easiest, fastest, most productive of the oil seeds. It grows in the NORTH. Artificer (an engineer) did some number crunching and found that 2 acres of rape would power his XR3 for the entire year for his commuting to work. 4 acres would power our generator AND the car. 

Gasoline....let's look at ethanol. Cane grows in th south, corn in the north. 

As to going hungry...not likely. There are millions of acres of unplowed land...just sits there fallow. Most of it is READY to be planted...it's just not profitable to do so. Much of it is in government programs that pays the farmer NOT to use it.

Imports going up? well...buy american. Electronics I can see going skyhigh until we start putting business back to work. We have lost millions of jobs overseas (and to Mexico) simply because we want CHEAP and many of the US workers want huge wages and few hours. When was it that we thought we were entitled to a 40 hour work week? Farmers, who still work like they did in the 1930s, don't count the HOURS, they count the results. "yup. back 40 is planted" "yup, cows all milked"

Would it mean changes? You bet. Would we collapse? only if people panic and continue the current thinking of "I'm entitled". 

there. that's my 2cents worth.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

stanb999 said:


> It was on Drudge... As a Rumor.


dollars or an equal amount in another currency -- what's the difference.
and when do we start believing rumors?
Shouldn't this be in General Chat or even politics?


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## Randy Rooster (Dec 14, 2004)

The sky is falling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Any economists on here? It really doesnt make a hill of beans difference whether they use dollars, euros or beads as the currency of trade. Supply and demand is what determines price.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Gary in ohio said:


> Why is this single fact such a big issue. You convert the dollar to whatever the currency is and pay for the oil.
> 
> 
> If Oil is USD $100 a barrel, Why would paying 683.640 Chinese Yuan for the same barrel change the pump price? The price is the same either way after conversion.


Because you don't realize that right now we can print the money. Yep, just print it and get oil. Once it is priced to a basket of currency. If your currency falls. Or a different one rises. It can easily cost you more.

For instance. From June of this year fuel would have gone up 10%. Without any other factors. Just on the fall of the currency.

The other thing is now foreign governments buy the oil with the dollars we print. So it inflates the value of the dollar. So all those dollars China has been buying has a place to go. Once they can buy it with their dollars, they don't need to buy our dollar. Who is gonna buy our crap bonds then?


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Randy Rooster said:


> The sky is falling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Any economists on here? It really doesnt make a hill of beans difference whether they use dollars, euros or beads as the currency of trade. Supply and demand is what determines price.


What do you produce that can be exported to the middle east, That they use. That has real worth?


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

mnn2501 said:


> dollars or an equal amount in another currency -- what's the difference.
> and when do we start believing rumors?
> Shouldn't this be in General Chat or even politics?


This isn't a political topic....

This issue can end US hedgmony in the world. We all benefit from this. Do you think those people in the rest of the world need US Bonds? Do they buy dollars from us out of the goodness of their hearts? No, they do it so they can get energy.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Wisconsin Ann said:


> good heavens. stop panicking.


I'm not panicking... This will be the news of the new century. Yes.


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## Razorback21 (May 13, 2003)

Randy Rooster said:


> The sky is falling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Any economists on here? It really doesnt make a hill of beans difference whether they use dollars, euros or beads as the currency of trade. Supply and demand is what determines price.


I'm not a economist, but currencies are commodities like anything else...if the dollar is no longer the reserve currency of the world, it will drop in value relative to other currencies. That is why our debt to foriegners is not that big a deal to many politicians...hey, we just print more dollars because our dollar is how most foriegn transactions are handled.

Let's say the Arabs want us to pay them with Yen instead of dollars. That all of a sudden makes the yen more valuable relative to the dollar because we have to buy the Yen from the Japanese to the pay the Arabs and since their are a finite number of Yen out there, the Yen will increase in value. Your "commodity", the Yen has gone up and we can no longer print dollars to buy oil, because that isn't what the Arabs want.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2009)

Ross said:


> China is only a super power because it has an ungoddly number of foot soldiers. It's gdp is less than a third that of the USA.


And growing rapidly.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

................Just one more reason to convert my vehicle over too Natural Gas which we seem to have Plenty of , in the USA ! Propane is refined from OIL , which makes it's price and availability contingent upon IMpots of oil , although Propane is a better fuel(moreBtu's) than natural gas . , fordy


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2009)

Ryan NC said:


> Ladycat, you need to check your facts, the US is still the largest EXPORTER of food products in the world.


Here are some really interesting stats.

About *25,000 shipments* of FDA-regulated foods arrive *daily* in the USA from more than 100 countries. Anchovies come from Thailand, dry apricots from Turkey, grapes from Chile, sesame seeds from India, sweet cured plums from China. 

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2007-03-18-food-safety-usat_N.htm

-------

Check this page out: http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/FATUS/

We do export a lot of grain, but see this from the above page: http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/FATUS/DATA/ImportYTD.xls

June 2009 IMPORTS

80 Thousand metric tons of Beef & veal
23 Thousand metric tons of Dairy products
817 Thousand metric tons of Fruits, fresh or frozen
112 Thousand metric tons of Fruits, prepared or preserved
424 Thousand metric tons of Vegetables, fresh or frozen


July 2009 IMPORTS

80 Thousand metric tons of Beef & veal
23 Thousand metric tons of Dairy products
501 Thousand metric tons of Fruits, fresh or frozen
112 Thousand metric tons of Fruits, prepared or preserved
383 Thousand metric tons of Vegetables, fresh or frozen

The above are just a FEW categories. For example, they don't show stats for seafood, MOST of which come from China.

*ETA: See post #46 below...*


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## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

Last night I topped off van and 3 gas cans at $2.299/gal. Reckon that will be the lowest it ever gets again in the future. bet it goes up 2-3 cents tomorrow, or even today.

Anyway, this is going to have a very large impact on most everything in the US. One thing that will help i sthat foreign imports will become relatively more expensive, & thus we will buy even less of the products of other countries, besides oil. Less plastic widgets from China especially.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

fordy said:


> ................Just one more reason to convert my vehicle over too Natural Gas which we seem to have Plenty of , in the USA ! Propane is refined from OIL , which makes it's price and availability contingent upon IMpots of oil , although Propane is a better fuel(moreBtu's) than natural gas . , fordy


I thought Propane had less? Made it's just the way it's priced. 

Isn't propane like 98,000 BTU's per gallon and natural gas 1 million per Cu. FT. 
A US gallon is .16 cu.ft or a gallons worth of Natural gas would contain 160,000 BTU's.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2009)

Also from the USDA website:

...the (USDA) database *does not account for* imports of processed fruit mixtures, such as canned fruit cocktail, canned and frozen fruit salads, fruit in confections, bakery, cereal, and dairy products. Nor does it report vegetables in imported condiments, sauces, soups, and other prepared or preserved foods. Since the fruit, vegetable, or grain composition in these highly processed products are either unknown or not recorded at the port of entry, their volumes are not included in import estimates by ERS. These myriad processed products cannot be completely converted into their original farm or fresh weights since accounting for each ingredient separately is not feasible. 

http://www.ers.usda.gov/AmberWaves/February08/DataFeature/

Which means the figures they report are lower than the actual amount of foods being imported.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Ladycat, Why do you think so many resist doom predictions on a Survival forum?
Darn near every time I post a story like this it's the same thing. 

Can't be.
Won't be.
Your wrong.
Is there someone to verify this?


The same thing happened When I said....
The price of fuel would rise.
The price of corn/feed will rise.
Real estate would fall.
The market would fall.
Prices of groceries would rise.
Gold would rise.
Jobs are gonna be hard to come by.


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## two_barking_dogs (Sep 17, 2002)

Possumcat said:


> It looks like we have 9 years to prepare for this (did I read that right? 2018?) so if that's the case, we all have a good head start.




Don't count on having until 2018 before the problem that this diversifing away from the dollar produces. 

It I understand correctly they want to be up on the new system by 2018. This means that they start today. Actually they started over the last year or so but the story is now getting bigger more public press. 

Look at the Treasury purchases from this year. The short term issues are selling but the longer term issues are being bought up by the Fed. This shows 2 things - First no one want to be commited to holding the dollar long term. Two no one is buying long term so to save face the Fed is buying so they don't have a failed auction.

Expect prices to go up for pretty much everything. Expect to see much more of our food exported because a cheap dollar means other countries can afford to buy more of our crops then they have historically done. Expect the cost of imported items to go up since the weak dollar means more dollars will need to be spent to equal the same local currency. Expect transportation cost to go up, then expect shortages, as the weak dollar causes our price of oil to go up. The shortages will occur when the government steps in to stop the outflow and further weaking of the dollar. What you don't expect the government to do nothing to help do you?

Anyway I expect to see an economy somewhat like the 30's except without the availability of cheap fuel.

Anyway my 2Â¢


.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2009)

stanb999 said:


> Ladycat, Why do you think so many resist doom predictions on a Survival forum?
> Darn near every time I post a story like this it's the same thing.
> 
> Can't be.
> ...


As I said earlier in this thread... I KNOW HOW PEOPLE ARE!!

BTW, I've been following the grocery trade for more than 30 years. I know what the heck I'm talking about. But since I don't have a degree in the subject, people tend to not take me seriously.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2009)

two_barking_dogs said:


> Anyway I expect to see an economy somewhat like the 30's except without the availability of cheap fuel.


Like the 30's with hyperinflation!!


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

ladycat said:


> As I said earlier in this thread... I KNOW HOW PEOPLE ARE!!
> 
> BTW, I've been following the grocery trade for more than 30 years. I know what the heck I'm talking about. But since I don't have a degree in the subject, people tend to not take me seriously.


I know you do...

But the thing is, People don't have much choice. IMHO.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Gold bugs don't believe the middle eastern finance ministers that say this story isn't so....

Gold is at new highs 1030's we are here.


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

Yuck!! I am just glad I am at least on the road to being prepped. My gardens are small enough I can work them by hand at least for a few years until age shuts me down. I did manage to get a little "shiney" ( silver, gold was always too rich for me) now over 17 dollars an ounce again. I am soo happy to have this forum to keep me abreast of what is truely currant. Just because it MAY be a rumor now does not mean it will continue to be so. Time to go and buy a few new gas cans and staybil so I can run the tiller . Means that this fall I MUST prep the gardens to plant without tilling in the spring. Means I MUST pre-buy seed and insecticides(most petroleum based) and put by cash, reduce debt and keep my finger on the pulse of the coming changes. In other words, speed up the direction I am already traveling! Have to wonder if all this swine flu bruhaha is to keep us diverted from noticing these major changes coming?? I mean we had a child locally came down with the swine flu and they FUMAGATED the bus the child rode to school!! Wonder if they took the rest of the kids off first?? Just kidding but we are all watching the mouse and the elephant is about to step on us. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## Pink_Carnation (Apr 21, 2006)

Even if this story isn't acurate...some of the oil producers are moving away from US $'s. Mostly because they don't like the US.

If we end up out of the oil business the dollar will crash fairly hard because there will be no reason for anyone to have dollars outside of the US. Oil is the only reason we haven't destroyed our money system already. Where did the billions of dollars come from for the government stimulus checks...we just printed more money. The money for cash for clunckers...print more money, Iraq war...print more money. Without oil what is the value of that green piece of paper? What is the value of it when everyone realizes that it isn't any more than a green piece of paper?


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## liquorlawman (Jun 14, 2008)

stanb999 said:


> Ladycat, Why do you think so many resist doom predictions on a Survival forum?
> Darn near every time I post a story like this it's the same thing.
> 
> Can't be.
> ...


well depending on where you live this type of thing is just normal variances in the economy/market. 

Everyone is up in arms about unemployment etc but where I live companies are begging for workers, real estate is booming etc


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## hsmom2four (Oct 13, 2008)

Spinner said:


> Oh, and I haven't heard lately what's going on with the fruit trees in FL. Was it a fungus that was killing them off? .



I can answer this since my husband works in the citrus industry. Greening is killing off a lot of groves but the major problem with citrus prices is imports from Brazil and South Africa. Citrus used to be a special seasonal item--remember those Christmas oranges from your childhood? Now you can go to the store and get a bag of yucky pasty oranges or tangerines year round (why would you even want to they taste so bad!). That's what has killed the citrus industry hands down. The price is so low and sales are way down because the market is saturated year round. Just like the cost to operate a tractor mentioned above for corn farmers--citrus farmers also have to mow and disc their groves and spray for rust mites, if it freezes in the winter then they have to light the smudge pots or run the micro jets. If its a large grove then they have to pay the crop duster. Just like with all other foods the farmers don't get to set the prices. If it is packed fresh and doesn't sell them sometimes it can be sold to the juice plant and the farmer can almost break even. 

Cheryl


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

stanb999 said:


> I thought Propane had less? Made it's just the way it's priced.
> 
> Isn't propane like 98,000 BTU's per gallon and natural gas 1 million per Cu. FT.
> A US gallon is .16 cu.ft or a gallons worth of Natural gas would contain 160,000 BTU's.


.............Diesel.........138,700-per gallon
.............Gasoline......125,000-per gallon
.............Propane......91,500..-"
.............Nat.gas(LNG)....90,800...per gallon , LNG=liquified natural gas
.............fordy


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2009)

hsmom2four said:


> I can answer this since my husband works in the citrus industry. Greening is killing off a lot of groves but the major problem with citrus prices is imports from Brazil and South Africa. Citrus used to be a special seasonal item--remember those Christmas oranges from your childhood? Now you can go to the store and get a bag of yucky pasty oranges or tangerines year round (why would you even want to they taste so bad!). That's what has killed the citrus industry hands down. The price is so low and sales are way down because the market is saturated year round. Just like the cost to operate a tractor mentioned above for corn farmers--citrus farmers also have to mow and disc their groves and spray for rust mites, if it freezes in the winter then they have to light the smudge pots or run the micro jets. If its a large grove then they have to pay the crop duster. Just like with all other foods the farmers don't get to set the prices. If it is packed fresh and doesn't sell them sometimes it can be sold to the juice plant and the farmer can almost break even.
> 
> Cheryl


This type of story can be repeated over and over in American agriculture.

Two more fruit examples:

2 or 3 or 4 years ago, the USDA paid hundreds of peach farmers to destroy part of their groves. The farmers were told this would raise the price of peaches and benefit them in the long run.

But when the prices rose, the wholesalers started buying peaches from Mexico, instead. Many American peach farmers went bankrupt because they could no longer sell peaches for enough to cover their expenses.

In the northwest part of the country where most of the apples are grown, one of the major apple companies (like Mott's? Can't remember, but everyone knows the name), had been buying apples from the apple farmers around them.

Then they started importing the much cheaper apples from China. Hundreds of American apple groves are now sitting idle, the farmers out of business.

And here's the kicker- if a company buys whole apples from China, but processes and packages them into applesauce over here, the applesauce was "Made in the USA".


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2009)

My bookmarks seem to have gone bad. This was supposed to be the Survival & Emergency Preparedness forum, but it seems to have become the Hand Wringers forum.










.....Alan.


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

ah well now, as to THAT..Chicken Little cartoon....one must become aware of a potential problem to effect any counters in our power. Either that or move out from under that apple tree! "We are DOOOMMMED"...all things end, now to just slow the slide!


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Interestingly enough oil is up today because of a weaker dollar. When oil was sky high it was no coincidence that the dollar was also at its lowest point it had ever been at. Anyone who doubts this should look it up, it is a fact. Every time the dollar has went down in value oil has went up. Part of the reason for the current low prices we are now enjoying is because trillions of dollars worth of wealth have disappeared causing deflation. But now due thanks to the Fed and the government the printing presses have been running full steam ahead trying to re-inflate the bubble. 

The reason why most oil sales are done in dollars is because it makes things easier. Currently the dollar enjoys a de-facto status as the world's reserve currency. One could buy oil with yen or pesos or any number of different currencies but that is not how it is done currently. Almost all sales of oil are done with the US dollar. 

Currency is not above the laws of supply and demand. Less demand more supply equals less value. No one should think that the US is so high and mighty that it can defy that. Hyperinflation has happened in the past in many other nations that also thought they were immune to such market forces.

The US has only two options, sky high interest rates that would kill what little recovery there is or let inflation take off which would also kill the economy. 

I think just about the only way one can prep for something like this is to diversify into other things like precious metals or other currencies and plan on having stuff around to barter.


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## scatyb (Jan 20, 2009)

Well Alan, while I agree that being in a constant nervous state is certainly not healthy, a little fear is fine and an incredible motivator.


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## caroline (Sep 29, 2009)

ladycat said:


> Here's what I'm afraid will be a result:
> 
> USA's economy will bottom out; anarchy will rule society.
> 
> ...


We are soooo close to that now it isn't funny!


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.e272eaa74dccc30f21c6ff7638b0f37b.461&show_article=1

UN calls for new reserve currency

The United Nations called on Tuesday for a new global reserve currency to end dollar supremacy which has allowed the United States the "privilege" of building a huge trade deficit. 


Seems the reast of the world figures it's time to stop the games.


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

No kidding. 



A.T. Hagan said:


> My bookmarks seem to have gone bad. This was supposed to be the Survival & Emergency Preparedness forum, but it seems to have become the Hand Wringers forum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

If you guys are intent on continuing this, how about turning it to some use. Maybe how to cope with less oil from the mid east (I tried up above..), how to create a better economy for your own communities. Instead of things like "this is the end of our country" posts.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2009)

Wisconsin Ann said:


> If you guys are intent on continuing this, how about turning it to some use. Maybe how to cope with less oil from the mid east (I tried up above..), how to create a better economy for your own communities. Instead of things like "this is the end of our country" posts.


You're right. The points have all been made, opinions expressed. Now what can we do about it? How do we prepare? Let's discuss that.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2009)

ladycat said:


> You're right. The points have all been made, opinions expressed. Now what can we do about it? How do we prepare? Let's discuss that.


 We do just exactly what we have been (or should have been doing) all along.

Get out of debt as fast as you can.

Lighten your energy load in terms of consumption.

Learn how to produce more of what ever it is you need with food being a very good place to start.

If you have enough discretionary cash that you can afford to invest then go get professional advice that you trust. This forum is probably not a good place for it.

No matter what happens with what they said in the original article the world is changing. But then it always has and always will be. We change along with it or go extinct just as life on this planet has done since the beginning of life on this planet.

Improvise, adapt, and overcome.

.....Alan.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Wisconsin Ann said:


> If you guys are intent on continuing this, how about turning it to some use. Maybe how to cope with less oil from the mid east (I tried up above..), how to create a better economy for your own communities. Instead of things like "this is the end of our country" posts.





ladycat said:


> You're right. The points have all been made, opinions expressed. Now what can we do about it? How do we prepare? Let's discuss that.


Good point....


#1 If you commute to work,
#2 If you buy imported food, or even non-locally grown.
#3 If your work includes commerce that is fuel dependent?

How will you cope with the cost transportation doubling or more?

I suggest you starting with the basics, Getting a smaller car, moving closer to work, growing what you can for yourself.


What are your Ideas.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Thanks to the ones that are turning this into a SURVIVAL thread.

Okay - economy is not so good (yep, understatment) and things are not looking over all rosey.

But, we need to help folks get ready. If it's true - they'll be okay, if it's somewhat true - they'll be okay and if it's totally true they will be okay, or closer to okay.

Everyone take a deep breath - 

Remember the $4 and $5 gal gas? What were your plans then, how were you making it then? Build on that.

Angie


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## scatyb (Jan 20, 2009)

May I suggest a book? You Can Farm by Joel Salatin


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2009)

AngieM2 said:


> Remember the $4 and $5 gal gas? What were your plans then, how were you making it then? Build on that.


 This is a very good point. I hope that those of us who were already thinking on this subject when it was that high kept right on doing so even when it fell to two bucks a gallon because it should have been plainly apparent it wasn't going to last forever.

.....Alan.


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

"You Can Farm" is a great book - I second that suggestion.

None of us should be surprised by what Stan pointed out - there have been news articles posted here, on survivalblog, and other sites for the past year which have discussed the dollar being replaced as the default currency of choice on world markets. There have been major calls for a new reserve currency from the UN for several months now, so the rumor that OPEC nations want to trade oil in something other than the dollar is not surprising. All that said, I don't think that we'll witness a step function change where one day oil will be traded in dollars and the next in some composite of various currencies. Same for replacing the dollar as a reserve currency. EVERYBODY has too much invested, no pun intended, to see a dollar collapse. Still might happen, but I don't think that the powers that be want it to. So, what's the bottom line? There's nothing any of us can do to influence the fate of the dollar, so there's no point in worrying about it. Here's my continued plan:

1 - Get out of debt
2 - Invest in tangible goods
3 - Invest in family, neighbors, and build community around you
4 - Engage in all of the other prepping activities we all talk about here every day
5 - Go visit AT's "prepping of the month" thread and get motivated


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

Spoil sports!! A little panic gets the juices flowing! But now that you mention it; I have been meaning to call the local company advertising solar and wind systems and I DO live in WV facing those 43% electric increases....

Sorry if my tone offended anyone, I am better set than many, but still can improve to a certain point. Past that, without community, I can't go. It does tend to color my perspective. I did already post plans to just hurry up the debt retirement and the largest hole in my preps is a water filter; reccomendments of suppliers for Berkys??


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

A.T. Hagan said:


> This is a very good point. I hope that those of us who were already thinking on this subject when it was that high kept right on doing so even when it fell to two bucks a gallon because it should have been plainly apparent it wasn't going to last forever.
> 
> .....Alan.


I know I've cut my fuel usage way down. But we never really used all that much to begin with.


Careful when storing fuel, 

ALWAYS KEEP IT OUT OF THE HOUSE

Gas doesn't keep without Stabil.
Diesel keeps for a bit, but will get think if kept too long.
Kerosene keeps the best. It can be used in a diesel motor if need be. But it will ruin the pistons over time.


Your best bet is to learn to conserve.


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

BTW, metals have begun to lose some of their gains; still way up over market start but losing ground.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

bee said:


> I did already post plans to just hurry up the debt retirement and the largest hole in my preps is a water filter; reccomendments of suppliers for Berkys??


Honestly BEE, your best bet is to get a sustainable and easily available source of fresh water. A Berkys is a stop gap measure at best.


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## scatyb (Jan 20, 2009)

Folks are feeling feisty today. Wonder what's in the air?

For me, I'm standing by anything with intrinsic value. Even precious metals have an imposed value.

Cmon stan, having a water filter is not a bad idea. I am in the process of digging a few water catchments on my property and would need a means of filtration assuming I didn't use a very large solar distiller.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Well I think I might dust off those gasifier plans I have had laying around. I have an old car I have been wanting to experiment on. Gasification isn't very convenient but it'll get you from point A to point B. I have access to plenty of wood scraps so no troubles there. The tractor would probably be best off running on alcohol in a pinch but it gets good enough fuel economy that I could probably afford to run it on gas. My little acre field only takes a gallon and a half or so to work up and get ready for planting. I am guessing food will always be in demand so I am going to try and concentrate on that next year. No matter what the economy is doing people still have to eat.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTqXYp28DDc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTqXYp28DDc[/ame] Some of you may find this interesting, a lawn mower running on wood scraps.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG8iR5DRLpw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG8iR5DRLpw[/ame]

A car running on wood scraps. When there is a will there is always a less convenient way


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

...........Trying to "FORCE" the Future back INto the NOW in terms of prepping is of MINIMAL VALUE , as we all know ! Crystal Balls , UNfortunately , come with a Cavet that states that they are Only accurate for the subsequent 60 seconds , after their prediction . There will always be "items of necessity" that we will be forced too acquire under Current market conditions . , fordy


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

Phil - I think that the job of "small farmer" will see a huge resurgence in the coming years. Like you said, everybody has to eat. As things get more expensive (including fuel) folks will need to raise their own and/or eat close to home. Village economies, here we come! May not be a bad thing in the long run, I just hope that the transition time is not too fast.

I read the forum over at hearth.com a lot - somebody there said, in reference to fuel oil and decreasing dependence on mideast oil, that every cord of wood her burned was one less plate of cavier for some Arab prince. Probably not quite accurate, but I liked his sentiment and thought his delivery (which I can't do justice to - he was much more eloquent) was hilarious.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

scatyb said:


> Cmon stan, having a water filter is not a bad idea. I am in the process of digging a few water catchments on my property and would need a means of filtration assuming I didn't use a very large solar distiller.




IMHO, you'd be better learning to drink from the puddle. A water filter has a limited life. What do you do when the filter goes bad.... You drink from the puddle. Not really long term at all.

Now if you were to create a sand filter. Then you'd be set. But they are huge and need the right conditions. Here is a wiki. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_sand_filter


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

fordy said:


> ................Just one more reason to convert my vehicle over too Natural Gas which we seem to have Plenty of , in the USA ! Propane is refined from OIL , which makes it's price and availability contingent upon IMpots of oil , although Propane is a better fuel(moreBtu's) than natural gas . , fordy


You can also take manure and grass clippings to break down further into natural gas. ala Mad Max: Beyond thunderdome!

Many farms do this. the country has lots of manure. Here in DC, one steps in it all over the place!


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Some of the things I'm working towards, and I wish many more in my community would do are:

Install the pipes to use soil temps to heat/cool the house/greenhouse/outbuildings. The system will run without any expense once it's installed. 

Install a hand pump on the well. I have the ability to use solar power to pump water, but it's limited. A hand pump would be a permanent solution.

I'd love to install water blatters in the attic that can be filled using the solar pump. That would provide gravity fed water to the toilets, sinks, showers, etc. With the use of the gen I could even use the washer & dishwasher. At this point it's only a dream, but possibly a dream I can work on in the near future.

I've been making plans for an outdoor kitchen for several years. I have most of the stuff collected to build it (mostly the take-outs from house remodels, and leftovers from job sites), now I need to get busy with the building. Same with a greenhouse. I have the stuff, just need the manpower to put it all together. I plan to build the greenhouse connected to the south side of the house for convenience of use in my old age. I plan the outdoor kitchen off the north side of the house where it's shaded during the summer, and provides some wind break during the winter.

I have tons of plans that I've been making for the past 15 or more years. Now it's time to put them all into action. 

There is a lot we can do to become more self-sufficient simply by trying to recreate ways our ancestors lived. My goal is to be able to live like my great great grandparents. I don't WANT to live like that, but I want to be able to if I have to. 

My next trip to town I'll stop by the scrap yard and pick up some old seat belts to make harness for the goats and donkeys. Then an attempt to build some carts of various sizes for various purposes.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

It's just plain insulting how some of you react to our discussion of this. 

There are those who would call you names because you store extra food and water in your house. Because someone is a little further down that road than you and they try and plan for global changes, and wish to talk about the topic, you call them hand wringers and chicken littles?

That's just downright insulting. We're not saying we're going to sell off all our belongings and go live in a cave somewhere. We're discussing the potential for disaster that this could hold for our current economic infrastructure. And then you, some SURVIVAL FORUM REGULARS, come in and bash us for it?

A good friend of mine left this forum awhile back. Instead of calling it "Homesteading Today" he calls it "Fenceriding Today", for those who like to talk about doing things but are unwilling to take the plunge and like to bash those others who ARE willing to do so. 

I'm beginning to see what he's talking about.


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## Randy Rooster (Dec 14, 2004)

A.T. Hagan said:


> My bookmarks seem to have gone bad. This was supposed to be the Survival & Emergency Preparedness forum, but it seems to have become the Hand Wringers forum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the sky is falling. 

some folks cant be happy unless theyre wringing their hands and imagining doom is about to befall them someone else or the country in general.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Ernie said:


> It's just plain insulting how some of you react to our discussion of this.
> 
> There are those who would call you names because you store extra food and water in your house. Because someone is a little further down that road than you and they try and plan for global changes, and wish to talk about the topic, you call them hand wringers and chicken littles?
> 
> ...



Don't leave Ernie, I had agonized over posting this last night. I was fully aware that it would entail bashing from those that do. I don't really care.
It needed to be posted. Some folks don't like or don't know about the super doomer boards. But when I see a story that could effect a bunch of folks and seems reliable, and is most likely real. I'll post it.

Notice I didn't post about George Ure and his end of the month "prediction" with the webbots, The super doom of dennenger, johngaltfla, or the doomers from over at Doomers.US. Most of the stuff is just TIN. 

Nope I wait till it hits main stream media. Then the posting. These people need to know what is coming. Even if it's a bitter pill.


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

I don't think anybody really meant to bash anybody else Ernie - my take was some folks took the possible ramifications of news Stan posted less seriously than others. My point, and I think that of some of those accused of bashing, was to focus on what you can do personally. I can do nothing to influence the fate of the dollar. I can, however, continue to prep, build community, expand my skillset, invest in tangibles, etc.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Who said I'm going anywhere? It ain't time for my swan song. I'm just relating why some others have left. One man in particular lives a rather enviable life of self-sufficiency and had a lot to offer, but I saw time and time again that "book learning" seemed to trump practical experience with every post. I can understand his frustration and I'm glad enough to have made his acquaintance before he disappeared.

This stuff may very well NOT come to pass, but I'll tell you ... people best be thinking about what might happen if it does. Right now we're nothing but armchair generals pushing ideas around on a felt table, but someday America WILL fall. No superpower has ever stood the test of time and it's downright hubris to believe we'll manage it where others failed.

If you can put food on your table, defend what you've got, and manage to raise your children in the manner you see fit then you're doing alright in my book. Those are the goals. If I go outside right now and look to the west I can see some pretty dark clouds and a lot of lightning. Is it doom and gloom to go shut the windows on my truck, even though that storm may veer off to the north? Or is it just good planning? If I'm wrong I wasted a little labor, but if I am right then I saved myself a wet butt riding into town tomorrow.

Bottom line is that even if this diminishment of the American dollar doesn't come to pass, a lot of countries are talking about it, and even our allies are tired of us just magically printing however much money we feel like having for the year. It's as if we're the only one in the neighborhood with a mulberry tree and then trying to enforce the mulberry leaf as the neighborhood currency. Whether they manage to unhook themselves from the dollar next year, or in 2018, or in 2040 ... sooner or later it will happen and we'd best be prepared ourselves or prepare our children for that eventuality.

I don't think much of the mindset that can't just read the post and say, "probably not an issue right now" and move on but has to instead insult those who wish to discuss it.


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## Deacon Mike (May 23, 2007)

This thread is quite possibly the most massive over reaction I've seen on the survival board.

The world is not ending. Everybody associated with this story has denied it. It's only been reported in one paper, any one else reporting it has referred back to the Independent.

Here's something you might want to read about the dollar as a reserve currency. It's future is fairly secure.

It the risk of ticking some people off, maybe some folks here should spend less time looking for the next disaster, and more time preparing for it.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Were you the one who said real estate and the market was good in 2007?

Yes I do remember those debates in 2007.


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## Deacon Mike (May 23, 2007)

stanb999 said:


> Were you the one who said real estate and the market was good in 2007?
> 
> Yes I do remember those debates in 2007.


I never said the market was good or bad. I was in the market and still am. I'm always in the market. I remember too


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

I remember how people were saying a few years back that the sub-prime market was such a small part of the overall picture we wouldn't have to worry about anything. Going beyond that, the US will still exist if our currency goes south. Just like Russia and Argentina to site a few more recent examples. But it'll be vastly different from today. There is nothing that makes the US immune from hyperinflation. There are only three ways out of the massive amount of debt we as carry as nation, raise taxes sky high, inflate our way out, or cut spending to the point that there is almost nothing for services or the military. How can anyone logically think that a nation can keep spending recklessly without no consequence. There have been various little tiny blurbs in different MSN sites about how the Fed may have to raise interest rates a lot or have rampant inflation. At best we are looking at a repeat of the 70s and early 80s. Also considering the Council on Foreign Relations is made up of mostly domestic corporations and investors I would hardly consider them to be infalible. Would be interesting to see what they said about the economy three years ago. I'll have to do some research.


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## groundhogII (Nov 6, 2008)

Wow,this is the most heated thread I've experienced here.Ernie and Stan999 I for one appreciate your posts,because your posts are usually unorthodox and thought provoking.
I agree with Stan999,this news is HUGE.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Ok, I've cooled off some (wife poured me something nice to drink) and I think I see kind of what the problem is.

I think to a certain degree some of us feel like we're prepared for whatever comes. And then THIS thing comes along. Part of my prep IS having a lot of cash in the bank. Money helps you withstand hardship. It's a simple fact of life. I don't really like to think of that cash suddenly becoming relatively worthless.

For those of us who are thinking we've got a pretty good handle on things, this is sort of a kick in the teeth. It's messing with our mental model of the universe, and if you've got any experience with human nature, you know that when you mess with someone's mental model of the universe it makes them MAD. For example, when you talk to your non-prepping friends about the need to prepare, doesn't it sometimes get them angry? When you talk about homeschooling to people who don't homeschool, don't they sometimes respond defensively or angrily?

I think some of you have been prepping for natural disaster and something the size and scope of an economic collapse is not really in your worldview. That's not a terrible thing. If you're prepping for the small scenarios then it sort of prepares you _de facto_ for the large ones. 

For my own part in this, I apologize for coming on so strong and adding heat to the discussion. I should speak with a greater softness and humility. However I do want to point out that everyone should at least consider the possibility of this happening and discuss the possible ramifications, the same as you would consider a flood or fire or some other long-term situation. Do not dismiss it out of hand because the news media doesn't report on it, or because it doesn't fit your political beliefs.


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## Tsurugi_Oni (Aug 13, 2009)

Don't overreact!!

As our dollar weakens all of our products and services will look more appetizing to the foreigners. It all balances out.

About the oil thing. I'm not so sure that we're going to get sent back into the dark ages. We are mutual trade partners with a lot of oil producing regions, and if we dont' trade then their economy also suffers. Unless they have a way to effectively replace us as a trade partner I don't see them simply dumpin us.


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## scatyb (Jan 20, 2009)

I'd like to point out that this isn't the first time people have lied and denied action/the truth/knowledge/culpability/etc. Just because everyone who was supposedly involved in the meeting denies it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I don't know if the meeting happened, but the likelihood it did is rather high. If nothing else, such an action has GOT to be on their mind(that or something similar).

Yes China has alot vested in US notes etc, but even with the thrashing they would take by dumping their holdings, they could recover by focusing domestically. Remember, they utilize capitalism on the backs of nearly free slave labor, labor that will most likely not fight back or if it does, will not put up much resistance.

Just something to think about.


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

it seems to be human nature, on this board, in politics, in science, in religion:


> http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/skepquot.html
> 
> "All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second,
> it is violently opposed; and Third, it is accepted as self-evident."
> - Arthur Schopenhauer


(lots more interesting quotes about the reception that alternative and/or skeptical ideas recieve at the link above.)

as one of the people that warned on this forum that the economy and real estate market were built on air several years ago, i fully realize the reaction is generally hostile, even on this board. it was even more hostile out in the general population. if you're looking for accolades, you're in the wrong business. it also explains why so few in the news media reports the early doom reports and alternative views, why real estate agents and wall street stock analysts are overly optimistic, why politicians never admit any problems. (until their credibility is shot, that is.) i've mostly stopped posting economic stories after the stock market tanked a year ago, because in my view the time for warning is over -- if you haven't figured out by now that the economy and real estate market is in deep trouble and it's not going back to the way it was, there's nothing i can say that would change your mind now -- the evidence is all around you if you only care to look.

i can tell you from personal experience it's very tough to keep your perspective and sanity when everyone is trying to convince you that real estate only goes up, that the stock market is fairly valued, that everything is fine, that the problems are "contained", that there's "green shoots" everywhere. Or that china has no alternative but to buy the greenback. ("we think, they sweat", as one venture capitalist says.)

lots of people are going to have their dreams smashed. they're not going to be happy about it. and they'll be looking for scapegoats, magical solutions, easy answers. and they'll be prickly and thin-skinned too.

--sgl


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

What are the Chinese doing with their accumulation of American dollars? 
Well, they are buying gold - not from dealers, from producers - they have eliminated the middle man and are amassing a huge stock of gold - the plan is to "back" their money with gold. Remember when America used to do that? Remember when America was solvent? We are STILL printing dollars.
Yes, sometime very soon - the dollar will be worthless.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2009)

Ernie said:


> Ok, I've cooled off some (wife poured me something nice to drink) and I think I see kind of what the problem is.
> 
> I think to a certain degree some of us feel like we're prepared for whatever comes. And then THIS thing comes along. Part of my prep IS having a lot of cash in the bank. Money helps you withstand hardship. It's a simple fact of life. I don't really like to think of that cash suddenly becoming relatively worthless.
> 
> ...


Tempers seem to be short in this thread, no doubt due to the reasons you have stated.

People are worried and don't know how to react, so they get angry.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Everybody associated with this story has denied it


And Clinton said " I did not have sex with that woman".
John Edwards denied his affair when the Enquirer was the only paper reporting it.

Denials dont mean it's not true



> This thread is quite possibly the most massive over reaction I've seen on the survival board.


Ive seen discussion. I must be missing the "over reaction"


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## Tsurugi_Oni (Aug 13, 2009)

I'm not sayin the economy ain't artificially afloat, but I'm saying that I'm not so sure that this story is what will change life in the U.S.A. 

The globe is so interlinked in a way that we simply can't afford to lose trade partners. It would completely destroy a country in days. Any sort of reform to drastically cut off a major trade partner is like suicide. There would have to be near dictorial-like powers to be able to recover from such a plan in any reasonable amount of time.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Tsurugi_Oni said:


> I'm not sayin the economy ain't artificially afloat, but I'm saying that I'm not so sure that this story is what will change life in the U.S.A.
> 
> The globe is so interlinked in a way that we simply can't afford to lose trade partners. It would completely destroy a country in days. Any sort of reform to drastically cut off a major trade partner is like suicide. There would have to be near dictorial-like powers to be able to recover from such a plan in any reasonable amount of time.


Hence this plan not going into full effect until 2018. I think most nations realize a sudden run from the dollar would be bad for them as well. The ability for the US to continue to be the world's main driving force in the global economy is coming to an end. Other nations are starting to realize this.


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## Stormy_NY (Dec 8, 2007)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJNA69MkI8Q[/ame]


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Stormy -thanks for the link. Very interesting (rather unnerving) watch.

Angie


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Yes there has been talk/planning for a number of years about moving 'from the dollar'.
Could it not be that some of the 'think tanks' overseas have been watching what has happened here in the USA in the last 6 months . .and they have said "Hey its time to really put the dollar change over plans in to place . . very soon" . . ?!?!

I'm glad this info\discussion is here . . . .all the more reason to keep on keeping on in the prepping vain . . . .and that theres more down the road than just a big thunder storm..........

Ok . . Energy . . .I'd like to see more folks consider SDHW . . .Solar Domestic Hot Water.
It is the best way to drop your fuel costs for heating water. . . to be used for that nice hot shower or for space\area heating.

Gather the components now and assemble asap . .or have it done by a contractor............

A whole lot "fuel" can be saved by going solar...........


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2009)

Hand wringing is not only useless it is counter-productive.

Talk about what to do, how to do it, the relative merits and demerits of a given course of action, piece of equipment, type of supply, and that sort of thing and you're doing something useful and productive.

Moaning about how it's all going to come crashing down around our ears is not. MAYBE it will, MAYBE it won't. Any regular of this or any other prep forum should know by now that predictions of 'how it's gonna be' are hugely likely to be partially to completely wrong. Yet crises and disasters happen all the time just the same.

There are no end of places to go discuss, debate, shout, accuse, argue about WHY things are the way they are. This forum should be a haven for those folks who want to discuss WHAT practical steps can be taken to cope and HOW to do them.

This is a definining difference between doomers and survivalists. One sees certainty where the other sees only possibility.

.....Alan.


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

thanks, Stan, for posting original Drudge article! Who did they say? Russia, China, Japan (as in, 2 guys here saying everythings ok, while the planes are being sent to Pearl Harbor) and France. Does that surprise anyone? For those of us who believe, what goes around comes around, or we reap what we sow, America has something coming. So if we are on the edge of our seat waiting for that something (not happily, but to help our loved ones who are not so prepared minded) what is that to you, non prep guy? I don't want to be a fence sitter, as Ernie mentioned.


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

"Driving force" can be information in advance of an event or the event when it arrives itself. I like getting a warning( just like the folks living on islands in earthquake prone parts of the world), this gives time to actually do something about what is coming. However it is human nature to react in at LEAST 2 very different ways. Disbelief; needing to be convinced of the validity of the warning,which itself can work 2 ways. It can waste time that could have been spent in preparing or it can save time spent on a false report. Panic just wastes time and energy. 

Then there is most of the folks on these forums who get the information, discuss it, and PLAN action on the information that seems to pan out.

Not true, not me, not us, not my country---not possible!! These are total blocks to action. Head in the sand, knee jerk and automatic. 

Since this forum permits and encourages discussion we can gather information and move on to action. Add me to the "happy it was posted as a heads up" tally.


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## Ryan NC (Jan 29, 2009)

ladycat said:


> Here are some really interesting stats.
> 
> About *25,000 shipments* of FDA-regulated foods arrive *daily* in the USA from more than 100 countries. Anchovies come from Thailand, dry apricots from Turkey, grapes from Chile, sesame seeds from India, sweet cured plums from China.
> *ETA: See post #46 below...*


I agree that we import to much Ladycat, BUT most of the non producible items are exotics. When's the last time you ate a pound of anchovies? I still see this as a possible boom for farmers as the government buyout of farms becomes a hindrance instead of a way for families to save the family farm that has been in the family for x generations from bankruptcy. 

There will be a sudden spike in food prices due to ramp up time and there will likely be shortages of some food goods, after a growing season where the land is put back in to production things will stabilize back out. The more produced on a local level the better off I see our country. Government regulation kills small farms & most other small businesses, force the government to step back on regulations to prevent shortages and I truly believe that you'll see a massive upswing in production on a local level.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2009)

Ryan NC said:


> I agree that we import to much Ladycat, BUT most of the non producible items are exotics.


Green beans from Nigeria, lettuce from Costa Rica, and catfish from China, are indeed quite exotic.


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## Ryan NC (Jan 29, 2009)

Ernie said:


> Ok, I've cooled off some (wife poured me something nice to drink) and I think I see kind of what the problem is.
> 
> I think to a certain degree some of us feel like we're prepared for whatever comes. And then THIS thing comes along. Part of my prep IS having a lot of cash in the bank. Money helps you withstand hardship. It's a simple fact of life. I don't really like to think of that cash suddenly becoming relatively worthless.
> 
> For those of us who are thinking we've got a pretty good handle on things, this is sort of a kick in the teeth. It's messing with our mental model of the universe, and if you've got any experience with human nature, you know that when you mess with someone's mental model of the universe it makes them MAD. For example, when you talk to your non-prepping friends about the need to prepare, doesn't it sometimes get them angry?


Ernie I couldn't agree more! I don't keep much in cash reserves in the bank which makes the value of the dollar almost a mute point to me. I spent 8 years carrying out government orders in defense of this country and now I feel like I'm going to spend the rest of my life defending my family from our government. 

I keep lots of physical assets & real-estate that could be bartered or liquidated should the need arise, my business is real estate / rental based and as such I have the knowledge and physical assets to make dang near any repair needed on a dwelling. The stuff I store is related to living, very few of my friends could throw together a generator capable of powering several house holds at limited function with stuff laying in storage. If all else fails I'm pretty sure we can make it within the six neighbors that surround us, I can fix pretty much anything electrical & housing related, we have 2 school teachers next door, guy up the road is an auto mechanic, folks across the street are retired police with great contacts, one of the neighbors has a high flow well that is spring fed, and the other is a plumber by trade. 

I grew up in a SMALL farm community as did at least one other here, most of us are armed in one form or another. About the only thing we lack locally is a fuel source for transportation, should fuel become completely unavailable for some reason THAT would be our biggest hindrance. I hate riding bikes and would most likely work with the mechanic to create a wood gas generator to provide at least one workable vehicle. I do need to look in to rapeseed as a diesel substitute from one other post here! 

Call it what ever you want, I'm pretty much a wheeler dealer by nature and can barter and deal my way to get what ever I need or want for little of nothing. I work to create win/win situations for everyone involved in every deal I do... Having a collective group of people that looks to you when they need something and expects you to make some sort of profit in the middle helps me sleep well at night. If the dollar fell to 0 value tomorrow, I'd be out very little and would simply start trading in whatever had value the next day... 

I swore when I left the farm environment 20 years ago that I'd never go back! (I was going to go be a big shot, lol) Today we have livestock again and I'm leaning back to what I knew growing up. There is always going to be a system of trade regardless of if it's driven by our government or the people, knowing how to make money (or what ever trade item prevails) without relying on a 9 to 5 JOB is a much stronger commodity IMO than any amount of money in the bank.


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

Alan Greenspan met with the Saudis and he advised them to divest themselves of greenbacks.

The G20 are (or did) discussing a "basket" currency to replace the greenback.

The IMF is talking about a global tax on banking institutions to cover the costs of situations like we have now (bank failures, et. al.).

The UN is calling for a global tax to pay for UN related expenses.

BO hasn't come out against any of the above.


.


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## Ryan NC (Jan 29, 2009)

ladycat said:


> Green beans from Nigeria, lettuce from Costa Rica, and catfish from China, are indeed quite exotic.


Again all ARE producible here but government interference and big business has driven production elsewhere. End that and it would be produced here again. I'll simply agree to disagree with you on this topic and let it die here.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

thanks Ryan. When I saw the list, I thought of back yard 'victory' gardens.

Angie


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2009)

Ryan NC said:


> Again all ARE producible here but government interference and big business has driven production elsewhere. End that and it would be produced here again.


I absolutely 100% agree with that. 

If the dollar is dropped as the oil standard, then hopefully we'll start growing our food HERE again!!

But since it would probably take at least 2 years to work into a significant production rate, I figure 2 years supply of food preps would be a good goal to work towards.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Somewhat OT but I have read Joel's book "You Can Farm" and I do believe his plan in general is good....and "good enough" is how I build things too

BUT he did inherit the land he is farming, his parents are willing to live with him and help for free and he is conveniently located to a class of people that have sufficient incomes to support high end foodstuffs.....

Any one of the three things listed above would be a boon for any would be farmer, he was lucky enough to have all 3....not many of us are in that kind of rosy, unique situation....

My whine aside....I've learned enough to get by.....its not going to be the cushy American lifestyle I thought/hoped it would be but any good ride ends eventually....
Unfortunately the circus people (gov't leaders) are not willing to make the necessary repairs to keep the Ferris wheel running..


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## Jo (May 11, 2002)

Glenn Beck did a whole speach on what could happen if we lose of US dollars yesterday on his show.....you can go to Glennbeck.com and there was information there this morning about his show yesterday. Very interesting.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

ladycat said:


> And growing rapidly.


Not to mention the control they have over us... Not widely reported in MSM but China defaulted on debt owed on derivatives in Nov 08..simply said NO...and they announced they will do the same on some other stuff in Aug 09...we no longer have the leverage to make them.. they and other foreign buyers bought 40% less treasuries while we bought more of our own to prolong the collapse...we of course had to rpint dollars to do this... so yes China and others are putting the squeeze on us and yes they will eventually drop the dollar as the oil reserve currency...Yes, we will default on our debt, bonds will dislocate, and we will have to use whatever currency is out there to buy oil and that will put a strangle hold on all of us.. all of this is a fact to come...the issue for this forum and those on it is to prepare and discuss what to do when not if this happens... 

I personally think conserving is useless as eventually you run out... I rather think finding a new way is the answer...what that is? I don't know which is why I visit this forum..


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

Ernie said:


> Ok, I've cooled off some (wife poured me something nice to drink) and I think I see kind of what the problem is.
> 
> I think to a certain degree some of us feel like we're prepared for whatever comes. And then THIS thing comes along. Part of my prep IS having a lot of cash in the bank. Money helps you withstand hardship. It's a simple fact of life. I don't really like to think of that cash suddenly becoming relatively worthless.
> 
> ...



I would be converting that cash into tangible usuable items..as much as you can and still feel secure...I firmly feel 5lbs of flour will be worth way more than a 50.00 bill in the near future..


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Well, I like to keep a year's living expenses in savings just in case. That's about $12k. Then everything else I put towards the mortgage, farm equipment, livestock, and fruit trees. Long term investments.

Best 401k you can have is no mortgage and a bunch of fruit trees. When I get too old to pick fruit then I'll pick up windfall fruit. When I get too old to pick up windfall fruit then it's time for me to go home to God anyway.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

Ernie said:


> Well, I like to keep a year's living expenses in savings just in case. That's about $12k. Then everything else I put towards the mortgage, farm equipment, livestock, and fruit trees. Long term investments.
> 
> Best 401k you can have is no mortgage and a bunch of fruit trees. When I get too old to pick fruit then I'll pick up windfall fruit. When I get too old to pick up windfall fruit then it's time for me to go home to God anyway.



I am with you.. I pulled out of all 401's K's and B's... and the market in Oct 07..perfect timing..don't know why inf act it was higher than ever when I did.. it fell and kept falling over the next two years. I built a house and farm with no mortgage beginning in 2002 ( still working on itand probably always will to tell the truth)...why did I do what many considered nutty and crazy? I have no idea but I felt driven to do so... and I do know that I am very blessed and that I am still being guided.. so I just go with it these days...


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## scatyb (Jan 20, 2009)

mpillow said:


> Somewhat OT but I have read Joel's book "You Can Farm" and I do believe his plan in general is good....and "good enough" is how I build things too
> 
> BUT he did inherit the land he is farming, his parents are willing to live with him and help for free and he is conveniently located to a class of people that have sufficient incomes to support high end foodstuffs.....
> 
> Any one of the three things listed above would be a boon for any would be farmer, he was lucky enough to have all 3....not many of us are in that kind of rosy, unique situation....



You're right about having all three in place for him. I'm thinking though that you don't need all three in order to be very successful at self-sufficiency by practicing similar farming methods. I would think that even without a market and alot of help, you could probably be near overflowing with foodstuffs for your own use. But this is not coming from experience. I've got quite a bit to do before I can even think about getting animals and such.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

scatyb said:


> You're right about having all three in place for him. I'm thinking though that you don't need all three in order to be very successful at self-sufficiency by practicing similar farming methods. I would think that even without a market and alot of help, you could probably be near overflowing with foodstuffs for your own use. But this is not coming from experience. I've got quite a bit to do before I can even think about getting animals and such.


Yes you can...especially if you are willing to experiment outside of the book and the fence....problem is in a "survival situation" loose animals are a no no.
We have free range chickens, rabbits and goats and some very well fenced gardens!
Hunting is another key for us.

We just butchered a free range bun(we have a trap cage) today and a cage raised from same litter...the free range was 3# all bagged up and his brother was 1.75#....small yet big difference...when you are hungry and money is useless.


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## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

Boy this thread went south fast. The original OP headline was "HUGE Developing Story, this will change life in the USA" and after reading the link and some of the posts, it seemed to me personally to be a bit over the top. Many posters provided helpful suggestions that will help prep for any eventuality but weeding through all of the many, many issues facing us today forces most of us to prep in a more general way rather than react to today's crisis. That doesnt make us fence sitters.

I dont have the means or resources to react to every piece of doomsday scenario and I certainly dont trust the media as much as some of you do. Though we probably cant keep the US dollar as the world reserve forever, there are many practical reasons this particular scenario wont play out as described; thats my opinion and if this is actually a forum to exchange information and ideas we should all be entitled to voice them.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

> and if this is actually a forum to exchange information and ideas we should all be entitled to voice them.


You just did....

Angie


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## jukebox (Jun 20, 2004)

Back to the original post.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFi1KlUh5PI&feature=player_embedded[/ame]


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Stormy_NY said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJNA69MkI8Q


Hi Stormy, it's been a while. We're nearly neighbors now. We should get together sometime!


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Read yesterday where there's some concern that this was a simple manipulation, so some folks could cash in on a dropping dollar. If I were King of the World, I'd investigate, and if culprits were found, they'd end their days as galley slaves.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Back in the mid to late nineties, I and my wife got our first taste of fear.
We were young.
We were raised to be good, solid, upstanding citizens.
We went to "church" every Sunday.

Then we were confronted by the "3000 bureaucrats one mile away" and found out just how far we'd come as a nation from the tenets of the original Declaration......

I was raised by a schoolteacher on 6 acres that were part of his ancestry's original holdings. He raised my siblings and me with chores, gardens, milk cows, chickens, home butchering, canning, foraging, etc.
We dismantled buildings for our lumber. We composted whatever was available for the gardens. Being the oldest, I was responsible for most of the chores....
I picked Dad's 5 acres of corn by hand several years running, just to save him the combining bill and to have something to secure my sanity after an Autumn day in public school.

During the summers, and any time during the school year that I could swing it, I was in the timber. I camped, swam, passed the time and lived free, pursuing and honing many of the skills held dear by the Native Americans.

I say all that to say that it was easy for me to pull the plug in the late nineties and take full responsibility for the well being of my family.
No power grid. No doctors or hospitals. No licenses, accounts, numbers or other paper bound "safety" nets. Very, very few trips to the grocery store. 
Lots of weeds pulled, firewood cut, rows laid out, nails driven, rails split, water fetched from the spring, laundry done outside- water heated via a roaring fire.
Then there were the late summer nights, long after the kids were in bed, just her and I, bathing each other in the pond, under the moonlight after, say, a very long day of canning green beans....

Our nearest neighbor lived over a mile away.
There was nothing to break the night silence save the coyotes and the owls.

I have not felt fear for a long, long time. 
There is likely no news that could come through this forum or any other media that would unnerve me after what my family and I have been through.


Forget and forgive what you cannot control.
Learn some skills that can't be taken away.
Put in a wood burning stove.
Learn the tempering, calming value of pulling weeds from dawn til dusk.

Take a lesson from the monks in the lofty heights of the Himalayas and seek to build in yourself a spirit that cannot be shaken from it's eternal core of peace.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Hi Forerunner - what a post that can tell us of what can be if we put our minds and backs into it. 


Angie


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## Randy Rooster (Dec 14, 2004)

"No power grid"

just wondering how you get online?


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

I think he meant this happened in the 90's but he's on grid now. I'd just like to know what happened, where they lived, etc.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

There is also solar, and generators and laptops with batteries and net cards.

I can get on the site with my cell phone..


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

He provides his own grid. I'll let him give you the details, but it's some sort of engine/battery contraption. Dang amazing. I would love to be able to duplicate it, but I don't have the know-how. Yet.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

We never "went" anywhere.
I began carving this place out in '89 and have been at it since.
We had the power shut off in the late nineties due mostly to an objection to jurisdictional issues. We even asked them to remove the poles....and they did, for half a mile back up the road to the next farm. We won't be getting back on grid.
I make what little electricity we need with an old Wisconsin engine, an alternator I salvaged out of an ambulance, and a handful of twelve volt batteries and an inverter. We might burn 3 gallons of gas a week.

To be perfectly frank, I grow weary of defending my reality online.
It would be great if others had the gumption, as Ernie does, to come see for themselves now and then. 

I will say this...... only after removing our water heater, shutting off the grid and committing to growing our own food did the real intuitions set in. 
Living in the comfort zone is simply not conducive to realistic planning for long term sustainability.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Forerunner - please don't let one or two 'can't believers' make you retreat to your haven and leave us without your experience.

Some people visit this forum to not believe and learn, but so many others do want to know how to do more. And not all have your gumption and strength.

Gumption - isn't that what this Survival is all about? To have Gumption to still 'live' and 'thrive' when others cannot or will not.

Angie


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## michelleIL (Aug 29, 2004)

All be darned forerunner. I'm with ernie, wish I could duplicate that as well. freezer and fridge crashings in the last couple months have really let me see the need to reduce dependance on those appliances. Stuck with dehydrating until I can learn to can.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2009)

michelleIL said:


> All be darned forerunner. I'm with ernie, wish I could duplicate that as well.


Me too, I'm intrigued!


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Michelle, why not forget the canning and freezing now and avoid the holiday rush. Dehydrating is the wave of the future and you can store so much in so little space..... Your used canning jar lids will even last forever.


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## Wildfire_Jewel (Nov 5, 2006)

But what do you do then for the storage of meat? That is where I am running into problem. SUre I have a frezzer full. But if we lost power I am screwed because the generator is out of commission (have to bring it in cause hubby can't figure out what is wrong with it) and I have no pressure canner to safely can it all up.
And my husband is curious, What do you run with your home made generator? And what do you do for hot water since you removed your hot water heater? We are very very tired of seeing 300+ go out the door to the utility companies but he is also very attached to his comforts (hot showers, satellite TV and interenet)


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## FINE (Jul 27, 2009)

Forerunner said:


> To be perfectly frank, I grow weary of defending my reality online.


I want to know your reality because I am fascinated by it. I don't question that you do it, but whether I would be capable of it.

Forerunner, people with your experiences are precisely the reason I am reading this forum. Please continue to share!


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Wildfire_Jewel said:


> But what do you do then for the storage of meat? That is where I am running into problem. SUre I have a frezzer full. But if we lost power I am screwed because the generator is out of commission (have to bring it in cause hubby can't figure out what is wrong with it) and I have no pressure canner to safely can it all up.
> And my husband is curious, What do you run with your home made generator? And what do you do for hot water since you removed your hot water heater? We are very very tired of seeing 300+ go out the door to the utility companies but he is also very attached to his comforts (hot showers, satellite TV and interenet)


For us, meat is somewhat seasonal.
We butcher a mess of chickens when we need to and can what we don't fry.
We hang a deer or smaller beef after the nights hit 30 degrees consistently and it is fine for a month or longer if cooled out quickly and quartered. If it freezes and thaws a time or two (or more) there is NO harm done.
Use your nose to detect bacteria growth. Light bacteria growth can be cut away and vinegar wiped on lightly with a cloth prevents/removes mold as well as retarding bacterial growth.
Deer and beef are both good canned. You might look into getting a canner.
We look to making jerky as the final answer. A gallon glass jar holds a lot of dried meat and it's great in chili, beef and noodles, etc.
Pemmican is the ultimate for storing meat simply and nutritiously.

With the power system, we can run a full kitchen, some lighting, computer, occasional movie in the vcr, sewing machine, light shop equipment, etc.
We also run an old, very dependable wringer washer, which brings us to hot water.

We heat our water in the summer in a stainless steel tank that I salvaged from a semi tractor. It was the hydraulic reservoir for the wet kit.
It is set up on blocks and we just build a fire under it. The water comes from a 550 gallon rain collection tank.
In the winter, we keep several stainless pots on the wood stove and take the hottest baths we want. Showers are restricted to the pond overflow when it's not frozen.
I have specifically arranged things here to eliminate _convenient_ comforts. 
There is nothing wrong with comforts so long as we don't take them for granted. Delayed gratification...


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## Blu3duk (Jun 2, 2002)

History first - oil was used to back the dollar circa 1970 when the several states were experiencing a period of bad economic times due to several things happening all to once around the world. No one could trade oil unless it was traded in dollars and the bond market stabilized virtually overnight and the several states again flourished..... Wars have been fought for countries trying to make oil trades for other currencies, the stockholders US oil corporations are the "'elite" of the political world and all oil is "traded" as "West Texas Crude" on the market anything else is unlawful under the laws of the several states code...... ergo all OPEC oil is called "WTC" and has to be traded in "dollars" to be traded upon the market here in the several states per the law, until the law is changed it will remain monetized that way.

Bonds - most are paying what 3% or about, next year alone interest will be around 10-12% in most places and those folks holding bonds will not be able to trade them anyway..... those offering bonds will have to offer some extraordinary pay out on them to get investors to take them.

If the Federal Reserve Accounting Unit Denomination [fraud] is not lawful currency [see 12 USC 411] then what is and why cant we have it per 12 USC 411? I want real cash lawful money not a printed "obligation" of the corporate united states.

Gold and other precious metals - dont buy and sell daily or weekly, buy for long term usage and figure that it will buy whatever it will when you have to use it, and will outlast most forms of any world paper/electronic currency.

What would I buy if i was buying world currency as a hedge against the dollar falling today? the Brazilian "Real", I would also look heavily into the traded Brazilian stocks her in the several states for infrastructure [cell phone vivio<sp> comes to mind as the Olympics is gonna increase the need for cell towers in Rio] if i was so inclined to be trading daily/weekly which i do not but have been thinking of a new career direction and studying it out. buy low, sell high and buy low again and sell it when it goes back up.... 

Now worrying about the topic of the dollar being replaced..... going away, or no longer accepted for oil, what to do on a small scale. 

dont panic, make preparations for converting your present dollars in savings to something that is useful or can be easily converted back into whatever form of currency is brought about for the public to use. buying old 90% silver coins is a somewhat smart move and can be done relatively easy, though with the recent climb back up in silver prices it is not "cheap", but again it is for the future and if the buy prices keep going up and the dollar deflates to nothingness then the sliver still buys the same as it did when it was purchased before said inflation..... dont put all yer eggs in one basket as the saying goes though. Currently one $10.00 roll of "junk" silver quarters [those with very little numismatic value will run a person about $125.00 of their "fraud" notes give or take at $17.00 spot metal, which is a little high but the going rate is there.... having about 20-30% of your "savings" in such is a good idea in my personal opinion, ya cant eat it but it can be converted if the dollar goes out the window with the bath water. I am not a financial planner by any means.

Someone pointed to rapeseed oil as a decent crop, one average acre [meaning some places more some less] of rapeseed production can produce about 125 gallons of oil, plus the usable cake left over is high value livestock feed, an oil extruder setup will set a person back about $5-25,000.00 of those fraud notes on today's market and the upper end will set you up in a new business of pressing oil for your neighbors, and selling the cake to the livestock growers who desire it, setting up a micro-industry in some areas and employing a few people who are currently out of work in the process, but it also takes vision, guts and determination to fight against the odds and the big oil companies..... so better to just raise a little on your own.

Food production - small greenhouses and cold frames, use of hydroponics in vertical stacks to utilize wasted space in a green house and the use of LED technology for growing will reduce the power consumption needs and thereby reduce the dependence on oil for growing the food for ones family at the same time.... I like the vertigro stack, and bought one for my family to use, from it I can make my own stacks now that i can see how it was accomplished if i desire to build more from their design. I only lack the ground to be able to build my own greenhouse on right now but we are working on that too.....
Knowledge, ive said for years on this forum and others, that knowledge is the only ting NO ONE can take away from you, you can lose your house, your car, your tools your bank account and they can even take away your social security number, but they cannot take away that you put into your brain [save a lobotomy, either mechanical or chemical] knowledge is worth its weight in any precious metal , for with knowledge you can rebuild anything tangible that is lost, given time and determination.

Sky is falling - yeah it is and not really, smoke and mirror politics have been around for a long time, and the people willing to fall into the trap that is set for such are a never ending bunch it seems, perhaps not gullible but more over wanting to believe that the machine will not eat out the substance of their family in order for the machine to survive until its own demise for lack of oil[taxes] to make the machine function any longer. And as long as the are folks who will listen, there will also be those that profit from making rumors bigger than they need to be, and keep the cycle of conspiracy going, though there is always enough truth mixed in to make the rumor seem real at the time. So in these increasingly harder to get by economic times we already know as choir members that we need be out of debt as much as possible, be responsible for as much of our own foodstuffs as we can be as possible, and take on responsibility to set ourselves up for future happenings with some sort of savings and retirement plan or rainy day fund whatever a family needs to call it. I still do not buy into global warming as presented by the "Algorians" for all i see is more taxes and stupid laws trying to get people to do one thing or another.

more later....... but i had to toss my "two bits" in.... [to many words for a couple cents worth] 

William
Idaho


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Since this story is now on a second thread, I figure the views on this one might come to bear.


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## TheMrs (Jun 11, 2008)

FINE said:


> I want to know your reality because I am fascinated by it. I don't question that you do it, but whether I would be capable of it.
> 
> Forerunner, people with your experiences are precisely the reason I am reading this forum. Please continue to share!


I second this statement! I need to learn from people like you. Please continue to share because I am eager to soak up as much knowledge as I can.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I'm not much good at spilling random information about what we do.
Let's talk about specifics. PM me if you'd rather.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Compost! I need help with composting this year. Why not start there?


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I just had a couple shots of mountain dew so I'm wired enough at this hour to write. I'll start a new thread......


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