# Why are animal "professionals" so snooty!?



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

I don't get it...

I run a wee little hobby-size farm (about a quarter acre) in a suburb. I have two dogs and rabbits and chickens. I have a 6' fenced in back yard, no kids, no cats, I work from home. My current dogs are healthy and well behaved. They do agility, chase off hawks and ***** faster than I can, and occasionally pull some carts for me so they're in great shape, but otherwise just snuggle with me. We feed a premium grain-free dog food and have tons of dog experience. I'm looking to move out to a bigger plot of land in the next couple years (we're actively making plans) and invest in a few head of larger livestock. A few sheep, maybe some goats, small pigs or a pair of cows... And I was hoping to get a dog to help me work them. I thought an Aussie would be a good fit as they're not quite as work-heavy as a border collie. Whenever you watch a video about Aussies or Border Collies, they come with a warning tag about how sometimes their herding instinct is too much for a normal home to handle and can cause them to herd cats or kids. Which to me means that a wee lil hobby farm should be perfect.

So I started reaching out to rescues. I even included a link to the sheep dog trainer who is local who I was going to work with. And while some have gotten back to me, I've gotten a lot of "no"s. Some people have said they wouldn't adopt to me BECAUSE I run a farm. Aren't these dogs supposedly being abandoned because they're too much for people WITHOUT farms to handle? What? It makes no sense!

Then a vets office in our area who had one vet kill a puppy we owned through absolute negligence and another vet tried to scam us out of $100's to treat rabbit ear canker with "prescription" Ivermectin in rabbit-size doses. So we told them heck no, left bad reviews about the vet online and started going to shots clinics for a little while while we transitioned. Well that was years ago, the practice got sold and has all new staff (including only brand new vets), so we called them to see if they'd do a checkup on our dogs. Turns out there's an inherited "ban" list, and we're on it and the vets wouldn't even consider seeing us. Asked if they'd listen to our side of the story but they wouldn't let us talk to the vets. This was AFTER saying they would and scheduling our appointment of course. (It's like, you know, I can keep leaving bad reviews for that location my whole life long.... And so can anyone else they ---- off. It's not like it's difficult.)

I'm just feeling a lot of "pet" frustration right now. I love my animals and care for them, but more and more I am starting to resent the rescue workers, the vets, the "raw feeding" soccer moms and vet techs and trainers, the toy sellers and the treat bakers and all the "suburban" animal people. And I was born, raised in and live in a suburb! I mean, a lot of good science and training and products and services DO come out of these people. But for every reasonable being, there's one that is just a snooty pile of poop who seems to be super high on themselves and will dismiss you out of hand.

Just... UGH! I'm so annoyed.

We took our dog to a different vet, obviously. And I'm considering a breeder for an Aussie. But I wanted to give the new vet people a chance to not be arseholes because new people, and they were arses to me instead... And I would really like to rescue a dog because I have no use for an unfixed, papered, purebred dog that's 5X's the price of a rescue dog that needs a home because it's got a lot of energy and herding instincts that I can harness.

It's just very frustrating trying to be a decent person in the suburban pet world sometimes.


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## CountryMom22 (Nov 27, 2014)

First off, I'm sorry you feel like you're getting the run around.

A "hobby farm" may not have enough work for these breeds. Not only do they have a high herding instinct, they also are high energy dogs. Rabbits, chickens and other dogs would not be enough to keep them happy. Also, many rescues won't adopt out dogs to a farm because they assume the dog will be worked without a fence, so it's just easier to deny anyone looking for a work dog. They want these to be family pets with a job, not real working partners. I understand where you are coming from, and I ran into the same problem, so now I find mixed breeds with the qualities I'm looking for or buy direct from a breeder of "working/farm" type dogs, not conformation type breeders.

As to the issue you had with the vet, it's called covering your ---. To them, you've already proven yourself to be a danger to their reputation, even though these are new vets running the practice. They don't want to be burned.

Not saying it's right, just that I can see both sides. 

If it were me, I would wait until I had an actual need for a Border collie or Aussie before purchasing one. I've seen many who thought being in a home with a jogger or busy kids and a couple horses would be enough to keep the dogs happy. Unfortunately, it usually isn't. Then you have destructive, unhappy dogs and an unhappy family. A kid isn't too happy with the family dog when it starts nipping at their heels to herd their flock. And you won't be too happy if the dog starts eating things around the homestead because he's bored.

But good luck with whatever you decide. You know your needs and situation best.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

Because they are " professionals ". They are self professed experts that let " LOVE an ideal that has nothing to do with the reality of a true dog nature get in the way of what a dog is.

I looked into a rescue LGD pup, I was told I would have to have a home inspection. A home inspection it is a out door pastoral breed in which i have experience. RIGHT. The cost of rescue is the same if not more than buying a well bred dog from a reputable breeder where you can see the parents not a who knows what , with genetic issues. 

The rescues are often profit generating enterprises in disguise getting tax breaks and vet breaks and selling dogs at profit. I have seen them use alleged rights to steal dogs and sell them at higher cost than the breeder was selling. 

I have little or no patience with this. I have contacted many rescues and asked to work with high drive rejects on a hand shake agreement to swap dogs back and forth for testing and have never once been taking up on it. I have had volunteers come and work with me, but never a rescue. 

Beware of anyone that is a expert. Me? Im just a regular guy with regular dogs that spends a lot of time on farms.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

You do know that you don't need dogs to raise the amount of livestock you are talking about? The money you drop on a dog, along with the replacement cost of the poultry lost, will go a long way toward building fences, chutes, alley ways and various livestock handling accessories, which you really kind of need anyway, with or without a dog. With that infrastructure in place, and with tame stock that are handled regularly, a five gallon bucket with a tiny amount of goodies in it will more than satisfy all of your livestock handling needs. 

If you have huge acreage, with a lot of head of stock, in range conditions, then you are in a situation to best utilize, and perhaps depend on a working dog. A working dog, bred, owned or trained by someone in that situation, is going to be a much different animal than the ones found in other situations. Range livestock operators need a much more energetic and amped up sort of dog to withstand the daily rigors of ranch life.

A lot of people have herding dogs simply for the image, or coolness factor, they make it look like the dog is an integral part of their operation, but really, it just rides in the truck. Other people, are genuinely interested in working the dogs, they have sheep for their dogs, not dogs for their sheep. It ends up being a somewhat contrived situation, but people take note, and assume that no small holder, homesteader, etc. could ever be without a couple kelpies and a pair of cutting horses to manage their herd of six heritage breed cows on their fifteen acres.

My personal opinion, is that something a little more subdued might work better for someone in your situation, either a breed you are interested in that is not from such hardcore working lines, or maybe another breed, say English Shepherd or something, all around jack of all trades plus family pet, rather than a psychotic and neurotic 24-7 herding machine. This assuming that you like dogs and want to make them an integral part of your operation. 

The rescues, especially the breed rescues can be tricky. Most are somewhere between animal hoarders and hard core animal rights activists. They may or may not want you even owning a dog, and there is a good chance that you won't know how to properly care for the breed as good as them. Others might be familiar with the realities of inexperienced people that want to drop a high drive herding dog off at their farmette, and will bring the thing back next week when they figure out it herded the ducks to death. 

Your other source is breeders, they could be anything from not really knowing what they have, to people that seriously want to place pups in the hands of people that will compete with them, just far enough away from them that they don't have to worry about getting beat with their own dog. Some of these people assume that if you are talking to them, you are going to do some kind of trialing, or what have you. This phenomenon is not exclusive to dogs, many livestock breeders want to have a name, but not necessarily locally, it is great when something you bred wins big at a show, but not as great when it was the one you decided to sell to some local kid that showed up at your venue and soundly beat your top pick. I think breeders would be your best bet, more chance of them knowing what they have and being able to match you with what you need.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Ran into that a lot when we were getting our last dog. The problem as I see it with rescue groups is that in many cases its all about the person (or people) and very little about the animal. They believe they know what the ideal pet owner is (them of course) and anyone looking to get one of their animals better agree to do things just like they do. Of course you can always agree to everything they want and then laugh at them all the way home with the animal.

I have found this to be true of dog trainers also. We needed some help with our Catahoula pup a couple years back (they can be very headstrong) and found one we liked, went to a series of group classes she put on, and she let it be known in one class what she thought of people like the Dog Whisperer (Ceaser Milan) even though she works with puppies and he works with problem dogs (problem owners) she had nothing good to say about any of his methods.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

@ Barnbuilder

Well said ... you put something into words that I was going to say. Often the groups can be a step in between pet lovers and animal rights activists and there is no way I would let one of them into my home or farm.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Just a few thoughts.

You're running a hobby farm. It doesn't matter if you _need_ the dog, you want to work with the dog as a hobby. I don't see a point to purists at this point, we all need to work together to survive the tide of know-it-all tyrants overrunning this country. If you do good by your dog and you take care of your livestock, any opinion after that is really just a preference.

Unfortunately, most people won't see it that way. You take these rescues and your vets as an example... They all think they know what's best for every animal on earth, and more importantly they all know each other. I don't know which happened first, and I'm not going to assume I know the whole story, but you're probably blacklisted because your vets got mad at you and they talked to all the rescues. People who won't adopt to you because you run a farm are probably vegetarians who feed their dogs all-grain diets and make them choke down some king of "veggie-stick" dental treat every day. Their dogs probably have diarrhea, meds for their diarrhea, meds for their depression or anxiety (seriously...prozac for pets is a thing now...), and get screamed at for trying to chase a squirrel now and then.

I don't know. I just find that in general people are completely full of themselves. Go to the vet and it isn't about you and the dog you love, it's about them and ther personal views and the mission they probably don't know anything about because they've been trained to maximize profits...probably without even realizing that's what they're being trained to do.


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

I totally agree with Barnbuilder. 

And regarding breed rescues, remember that these breeds were bred for specific jobs. A good rescue would know better than give an intense dog to a hobby farm. Many of those rescue dogs initially started out in homes of people that didn't understand the intensity and drive, so the dogs start acting out, chasing cars, killing cats or biting kids. Herding dogs are CRAZY and truly need to be worked or worn out in other ways. I don't think you can work a herding dog on such a tiny flock/herd without distress. 
If you have a few sheep or a couple cows, the dog will be of no use. And if you leave them together or your herding dog gets bored and slips into the paddock they are going to run and nip the livestock until you realize what's happening (they don't quit), likely ending in stock animals getting euthanized due to injuries.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Thanks for the empathy. I know I am not alone, but it's still frustrating. I feel extremely confident i could give a great home to a rescue Aussie. Big thank you to Wistico who gets it best.

"You're running a hobby farm. It doesn't matter if you need the dog, you want to work with the dog as a hobby. I don't see a point to purists at this point, we all need to work together to survive the tide of know-it-all tyrants overrunning this country. If you do good by your dog and you take care of your livestock, any opinion after that is really just a preference."

That's very much how I feel about it. I'm QUITE capable of caring for a random aussie from a rescue. We're not exactly talking about me going out and buying a world famous trial dog here. That's (part of) the exact reason why I DON'T want to go to some top-tier trial dog breeder for working aussies. Why on earth would I need that? Seems like a rescue that's just too rambunctious for an inexperienced home, or one with kids or cats, or one where the Aussie is an "only dog" would be a nice fit...

Aren't I also constantly hearing about how "pet/show" purebred dogs (the ones most likely to show up in a rescue) have so much less drive than their "working" cousins and don't have enough drive to work a big farm? Oh, but nope, hobby farm not a good fit anyhow? Make up your minds. XD

Heck, I have two dogs right now that if I listened to folks "in the know" I probably wouldn't own. They're both high-prey-drive dogs (On a farm with small livestock!? THE HORROR!), extremely active northern breeds in extremely good shape and nobody thought I could handle THEIR energy or drives either. They do agility and obedience, they go to dog parks and fairs, camping and hiking and biking, we go on walks and wrestle, they have toys and dog puzzles and an indoor home at the end of the day. (What responsible person would leave their high drive dogs unsupervised or in a position to be unsupervised with their livestock??? Especially on a hobby farm where the dogs probably live indoors by law...) They also both pull carts around for me sometimes because they're both dogs designed to pull things and I like to harness that. (Wish I had sledding equipment for them.) And occasionally, they see off predators. It took YEARS of patience to teach the AKC husky that the chickens were NOT food, but by golly she learned it and now she's like a homing missile when it comes to seeing off interlopers and has saved my animals more than once when I would have been too slow (and gotten a few battle wounds for it).
I love working with dogs. I want another dog. I mostly run this place by myself and I'm going to be going bigger in a year or two, so I'd like a dog that could double as an extra set of hands occasionally, rounding up animals into pens. It's really annoying trying to get the birds back into heir pen (and out of your garden) when one goes shooting off sideways, half of them follow, and nobody is there to catch it. Can I manage it alone? Of COURSE I can. If I couldn't, I don't think I'd be looking at a dog (which just means trading out that frustration with the work of owning a whole dog), I think I'd be looking at a smaller farm situation or maybe a hired hand. It's just something I'd like to have, because, well, I like dogs and I like working them.
Still, that situation's only gonna get more frustrating when we're talking 100+lb animals in fields, as opposed to 3lb animal in a lawn, and I can certainly handle it but it'd be nice if the pet I want to own anyhow could fix it for me instead and have a good time doing so. So I'd like the time to work with an Aussie BEFORE I need them (ESPECIALLY if it's a puppy or young dog!), to build trust, to lay down good obedience and ground manners and take them to classes long before I ever set them to my own stock because I'm in a pinch and don't want to go pelting after that one animal who's already 100 yards away. That seems only responsible. If they're six months old and only half trained and unstable when I move, I'm going to be sad I don't have what I want when I find a need for it. Hence my starting to reach out now, not in a year or so when I'll be on a bigger piece of land.

I also happen to like the personalities of Aussies, the intelligence and exuberance. That active nature is a requirement in this house. If the dog can't run and wrestle with the other two dogs for over an hour while they play outside, can't spend several hours wandering around fair full of people, can't spend an hour on agility, can't run for an hour next to a bike, or can't go on a 3-hour trail walk without being totally burnt out (as we may do multiple of these things in a day)... It's not active enough for our household. Because those are regular occurrences, and sometimes the dogs are asked to do actual work even after a day like that. They have to commonplace here to keep our already active-neurotic-insane dogs healthy and sleeping comfortably on the couch when it's time to wind down. 

I've worked with herding breeds before... Heck my crazy neighbors had a border collie while we were living in a frickin' apartment and they didn't know how to train it. (We worked with them on it.) My friend who does almost no exercise has a fatty, lazy, overweight aussie that loves to sleep and get belly rubs.
Aussies are a popular family pet. They're not ALL 100% nutjobs. I'm just looking for something inbetween and Aussies can certainly be that.

I'm going to keep reaching out to rescues for now. As I said, it's going to be a while before we move so I have time. I'm in no sort of a rush. But it sure is becoming a nuisance. Either they want an active family with lots of experience with active dogs, good vet care, who invests lots of money into their dogs and has lots of things for a dog to do (sometimes, even letting them stretch their instincts!) or they don't! I sure wish they'd make up their minds....

I mean, one way or another, I want another dog. And I require an active, intelligent dog in this house. Why not have one that can lend a paw once in a while too?


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

So yea I have to correct myself on one thing. It may not matter what people think in terms of whether or not hobby farming is cool or uncool, but to do right by the dogs and the stock, you do have to put them in the right situation. If they're denying you because you're a farm, that's one thing, and I'd side with you. If they're denying you because you're a hobby farm and they don't want a Blue Heeler or another high drive herding dog pressuring your livestock to death, that's a completely different story. If you can handle it, maybe you just need to show them?


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Wiscto, not sure how reasonable it is to think a dog is going to kill livestock if the owner has made it as clear as possible that they have tons of outlets for energy, have no intention of leaving the dog unsupervised with stock, and wants to put in a full year of training (including dumping tons of money into a professional trainer)... Plus has two other high energy dogs that are well trained, healthy and behaved. 

I mean, any dog CAN kill livestock under any circumstances. But there's only so much I can do to prevent that and I think I've got a good plan in place. And like I said, it's not like every Aussie is a nutjob. Some are just... Dogs.

I don't want one that comes from really intense working lines. Hence, trying to go the rescue route and pick up an over-active, pushy, house dog.  They already know what the dogs are like and who are too intense for a hobby farm (which in rescue, how many of those do you think really show up?). Most of them are in foster homes and have been worked with for a few weeks at least to assess their temperament unlike a puppy. Since I don't wanna breed, I don't need that consistent heritage of herding.

Also, that would make sense if I was expressing interest in a PARTICULAR dog. But I'm not. I'm just sending in applications to rescue and Aussie rescues in general, not for any particular dog.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Around here $200.00 for a rescue dog. Home visits. Fenced yard a must. Vet records for 2 years or more. No dogs can be outside dogs. Oh forgot they talk to your neighbors, if the neighbors dont want to to ave a dog your done. Personally i think rescues are a scam. Saw a post in our local paper rescue group needing foster homes. Same deal, vet ,neighbors, and you have to buy high priced dog food from them. Scam


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

I have $200+, fine with a home visit, I have a 6' wood privacy fence around my lawn, I have my vet records for 8 years, outside dogs are illegal here anyhow, my neighbors all own dogs (over half the houses on the street own dogs) and I petsit their dogs and bring them home when they get out.  I buy high priced grain free dog food already because my older dog has some allergies. I'm even home all day. On paper, everything should be a perfect home... Except that I own rabbits and bunnies for food.


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## Jlynnp (Sep 9, 2014)

Many rescue groups can be very difficult to work with things like no outside dogs, no intact animals in the house, must have a fenced yard and so forth. Now with all that said I ran a non-profit dog rescue for many years and was considered by several other rescue groups as irresponsible. I adopted several dogs to homes without fenced yards, lets see toss the dog in a fenced yard and ignore it or spend one on one time with the dog while walking, I also adopted dogs to folks who had intact dogs the showed and or bred if they were responsible and were looking for a specific dog to just be a bed buddy and if the dog were capable I would place in a working home. I actually placed a couple GSD's with a trainer who eventually placed them as working K9's. So there are rescues out there who will work with you but they are very few and far between. If it were me I would look for a small hobby breeder who actually worked their dogs, did proper health testing and who knew what they were doing. We are going to be adding a Labrador (chocolate female) to our family in the spring and I am already putting feelers out there with breeders who meet my criteria.

As for vets, we tried a couple here when we moved to TN and found our best one was a clinic that makes farm calls and has a no nonsense approach to vet care.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

XD My dogs are both fixed too.
I'd like to keep trying to do rescue. But if I have to resort to a breeder, I will.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Wiscto, not sure how reasonable it is to think a dog is going to kill livestock if the owner has made it as clear as possible that they have tons of outlets for energy, have no intention of leaving the dog unsupervised with stock, and wants to put in a full year of training (including dumping tons of money into a professional trainer)... Plus has two other high energy dogs that are well trained, healthy and behaved.
> 
> I mean, any dog CAN kill livestock under any circumstances. But there's only so much I can do to prevent that and I think I've got a good plan in place. And like I said, it's not like every Aussie is a nutjob. Some are just... Dogs.
> 
> ...


Yea I hear you. Like I said before, they probably assume that they know your dogs better than you do, and so obviously they're going to think they know the rescue dogs better than you, and they assume there's just no way.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

There are a ton of Aussies being bred by hobby breeders around here. They seem to clog the various farm sale pages. Much attention is given to eye color it seems. They couldn't possibly all end up in herding homes with maximum opportunity for high drive type dogs. I think the majority are filling the nitch of pet/eye candy, they look good riding in the truck that pulls the trailer hauling horses everywhere, often without a cow or sheep in sight. It is possible that the rescues get a high percentage of the high drive type dogs that don't come with an off switch.

That is one thing that often perplexed me about the high drive herding dogs, the border collies and such. I've been around some that didn't seem to be able to turn off. My own hounds are very highly driven. They will run for days on end. They are ready to go at the drop of a hat, but when it is not go time they could teach cats a few lessons on how to lounge. And lounge they will, for days on end, until the time is right. I've seen nervous, high strung hounds. They usually get called "kennel runners". They will run their race in the kennel and have no energy left when it's their time to run. They don't typically get bred to, not considered desirable, don't perform well. Why is it that the very best in competition bred herding dogs seem to be nervous and high strung? I guess part of it is that they often live where they can see stuff that they could be herding. My hounds see stuff, but it is not stuff they are allowed to chase. If there were bears and things grazing next to my kennels, they might seem more nervous and high strung.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I&#8217;m in rescue. We do home inspections for a dog, not a human. One home had a half dozen dogs each in a small crate on the back porch. No, they did not get a papillon from rescue. Another would keep a Boston terrier as an outside dog. it would die from the cold. The home may be unsafe for dog or child, broken glass etc. 

I think an Aussie, a ranch dog, would not serve your needs. Since yours would still be a hobby farm, you can train your animals. A little bit of grain or a piece of carrot goes a long way in getting sheep, pigs, or cattle to come when called. You can teach them to hand signals as well to go left or right or stop. I think another dog like the one you have might work well for you as a good farm dog.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> If there were bears and things grazing next to my kennels, they might seem more nervous and high strung.


Hahah, yea that might do it.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

The last thing I will let anyone ever do is come do a home inspection, if that means I dont get a rescue dog I could care less .... If I wanted that kind of scrutiny I would sign up for food stamps which my sheep shearing income would certainly allow me to do. The flip side is that you can go to pretty much any larger city shelter and there is no questions asked. I have taken a could small high drive dogs from high kill shelters. When the dogs showed interest or lack of interest in my work they were given to the right family farm after a small amount of work. 

I dont know if that is possible for you but friends in the city might be able to check websites and pull a prospect at little cost with a 30 return policy ....


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Maura said:


> I think an Aussie, a ranch dog, would not serve your needs. Since yours would still be a hobby farm, you can train your animals. A little bit of grain or a piece of carrot goes a long way in getting sheep, pigs, or cattle to come when called. You can teach them to hand signals as well to go left or right or stop. I think another dog like the one you have might work well for you as a good farm dog.


This paragraph of your post is not YOUR call. You have no idea of how much time a person will spend with a dog. 
At first glance, there's no way my wife and I should have a high energy Catahoula. But since we spend a couple hours a day tiring her out (dog park, walks, back-yard games, etc) and the occasional day at doggie day care - it works out fine, plus it gets us out and moving.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

The OP asked for opinions, I gave mine. I am not out of line. The OP can sort out which replies might pertain to their future situation. From what was written in the original post, they can probably pull off training the livestock to their situation and getting a dog that will protect the livestock and farm, like their current dog.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

When you say:



Maura said:


> I&#8217;m in rescue.


And then you tell a person that a dog


Maura said:


> would not serve your needs.


You're going to get push back from people who have seen busybody "rescue groups" that do not have the dogs welfare in mind, just their own "ideals"


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

There are NO Border Collies in the shelters here, rescue gets to them first.

When my daughter wanted a Border Collie for her farm, I went to a monthly farm sale. Lot of BC's for sale there, all sizes and shapes. Talked to the people who'd brought them to sell. Finally bought a BC that had been intentionally bred to work on a hog operation, parents were both working dogs, and this dog was NOT the best in the litter (or even second best), didn't have the drive to herd they wanted & needed. I thought she was perfect!

She WILL herd, but doesn't go bat-flip crazy over it, has an "off" button and settles nicely, wants VERY much to please, and is easy to train.

You might check out one of those local farm sales (here they're usually at county fairgounds once a month), but be sure to get there early...by 10 am they'll be packing up to go home.

Mon


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

So, two other posters wrote that an Aussie probably would not serve the needs of the OP. Nothing to say about them? Is it not their call? Do they not know how much time will be spent with the dog? Or is it because they don&#8217;t take in dogs that aren&#8217;t housebroken and have had no training and do the work to prep the dog for a normal home?


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## gjhinesjr (Jun 28, 2014)

I don't come onto this sub-forum much but felt compelled by chocolatemouses' story.

My first thought to the OP was "Preach on!". I grew up in suburbia, worked in vet offices/kennels/non-profit clinics for 10 years before leaving that industry, and now have a 12 acre hobby farm.

The "pet people" are...how do I say this nicely...out of their f-ing minds (the language is needed in this case).

There's so much to comment on it's hard to start. But I agree with everything you're feeling.

Vet's are pompous ass' that don't have a clue. I've worked with many many, even went to undergrad to be one, have friends that became them. They're all the same. You find one you like, hold onto them like gold.

The rescue groups are the same way. Vilifying every farmer type person/situation because it's not their idealized pet home. All the while completely ignoring the true needs of the breeds/animals they have in front of them and the good homes they have access to. I realize there are a lot of unfortunate animals in some very bad situations. But acting holy-er than thou because you're affiliated with a "rescue" is beyond ridiculous. I will never allow some person to come to my house to evaluate my lifestyle and decide whether or not I'm a good enough person to own an already unwanted animal. 

My girlfriend and I would love to get a greyhound ourselves, but you're off your rocker if you think I'm gonna put up with their scrutiny to take a rescue dog.

Which brings me to my last abbreviated point. All you people sitting here telling the OP that an aussie isn't right for her, are showing your true colors and missing the point ENTIRELY. And that is, that you have no right what-so-ever to tell someone else what will or wont work for their situation. That is for them to decide. The mere insinuation that you know better than they do, and are some privileged soul that can alone, handle the breed/animal in question. Makes my freakin...blood...BOIL. 

Which is why in my girlfriend and I's case. We love to support good ethical breeders. Because you know what, it's not caring breeders that are causing the unwanted animal crisis in this country. I still attest (and I've said this before on HT) that if we all purchased only from scrupulous breeders. We wouldn't need the ASPCA and every other rescue group out there. In my admittedly cavalier opinion. The large scale support of the "pet agenda" (adoption, spay/neuter, "urbanized" animal welfare criteria, etc) is CAUSING the problems that we see. If we all accepted the fact that animals are not people, and could live happy healthy lives being treated as such. They and us, would be much better off.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Maura, I sure can train my animals. Of course I can manage them all on my own or I wouldn't even have them. But here's the deal.

I am getting a third dog. The end.

Now where would you like me to get that dog from?

Because what you just wrote, you just told me to go buy from a breeder.  Which I will probably do.

Hence the problem... It's hard to support rescues when they don't seem terribly eager to give dogs new homes and push people towards buying from breeders instead. Seems counter productive to the "Don't buy, rescue" message.

The way I see it... Worst case scenario; If I get an Aussie from a breeder and I can't handle it... +1 net dogs in rescues. If I get one from a rescue and can't handle it, I'm basically just a underglorified temporary foster home.  +0 net dogs in rescue. It's not like I'm going to make it worse. Some people might... They might starve or abuse the dog or not train it. But I've got two great, healthy, trained dogs of my own to prove I'm not that bad of a person and a trainer lined up.

So, Maura. I am getting a third dog. I feel like an Aussie will be a good fit, and I am confident enough in my ability to handle an aussie to dump a lot of money into it. No exceptions. Where should I get my dog from?


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Frogmammy, we have a similar situation. We're actually right on top of a city. We live in suburbia right now. None of our shelters have anything but all american mutts and pit mixes in them. And while I love pits/pit mixes (recently fostered a stray one, and then gave it to my sister, great dog) I have no desire to own one... Right now.  Most of the dogs are toy mixes (too small) or hunting dog mixes. Labs, hounds, beagles, whathave you. Great dogs, not exactly what I'm looking for.
A farm sale might be a good idea. I have been meaning to check those out anyhow. Maybe this gives me a stronger reason to make the drive.

Gj, there's certainly a fine line between "consider this carefully, it might not work out well, I've seen it happen" and "Psh, no. You can't handle that. Silly child.". 
Certainly, lot of people know more about herding dogs than me. But I can take their advice into account and know from experience that an Aussie would still be a good fit if I take care to know what I am getting.
But when someone tells you not to bother at all is when I get annoyed. 

Like, I raise rabbits. I've been working with rabbits for nearly a decade. People ask me a lot if they should do a colony setup. I have had poor experiences with colonies, so I always tell them "You can, but I would not. Here's a lot of reasons why it could go wrong". And if they feel like they can mitigate those issues, great, build a rabbit colony.

So I'm not too annoyed when people say "You want an Aussie? That may not be wise. Your farm could be too small to work a high-energy animal, or to give enough work to a really high drive animal". Because of course the answer is "If they are an extremely high drive animal I don't want them (there are plenty of aussies with a lower drives, especially in resuces), and if they just need more exercise than my farm work alone can offer, I have two other high energy dogs I care for just fine without farm work. Of course I can manage that too."

But if someone glances at my situation and says "Never get an aussie. Just do something else. You couldn't possibly handle it.". That's where the problem lies. They've just crossed from "This COULD go wrong, you know?" (advice, which is just a warning to plan carefully and can be worked around even if it's a quite large problem) to "You will screw up.". 

Which I know rescues have to decide "This person will screw up" so they don't send their dogs to abusive homes. But they sure do seem to pick arbitrary things to base that off of.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

These rescue people, as I said before, are borderline animal rights activists. They create the environment for backyard breeders to crank out unsound animals that end up in shelters, by vilifying professional breeders and over scrutinizing potential adoptive homes. This serves to perpetuate the need for their services. Time was, that a breeder would buy back or replace an animal that didn't work out, because it had value. A competent breeder is always going to know best the traits of his or her animals, the faults and weaknesses, and be able to match those animals with the owner they belong with. But the rescue people have harassed breeders to the point they almost have to operate under the radar. Very hard for a breeder to operate in a manner that promotes and perpetuates a breed now. This is the goal of the hardcore animal rights extremists, to eliminate breeds and eventually pet ownership all together. Many of the rescue people are useful tools to this complete this task.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

When I was looking for a dog all I could find in this area was the same as you...pits, pit mixes, and small dogs in the shelters. I hate ankle biters, LOVE the herding breeds (although I'm not certain about the Sheltie), their thought processes and problem solving ability. I did NOT want to show a dog or do obedience, so most of the breeders I knew were out. Finally found a pup from a back yard breeder with a good reputation. He's not "perfect" (front is WAY too straight!), but he's perfect for me, does just what I want. Mostly....

Mon


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

Just FYI not that I actually know where you are located but there is a 1 year old aussie available on one of my local boards for $75 the dog is in a 3 dog home with a child and has to much energy for the owner.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Jreed, that's exactly what I'm looking for! XD Unfortunately I am on the other side of the country in the great lakes region.

Not in so much of a hurry that I can't wait for something similar to show up here.


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## gjhinesjr (Jun 28, 2014)

Barnbilder, that is one of the most accurately said statements I've read in a long time. Could not agree more.

If only more people understood that the do-gooders are so often the ones doing the most harm.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Ugh. You cannot paint every rescue group with the same brush. Are some over the top? Of course. Are most of them doing the best they can for the dogs while at the same time being realistic? YES. If you find one you don't like, try another.

Why are some of them snooty? Because they've had to rescue dogs being treated horribly. They have had to take in dogs that became inconvenient for the owners (oh, you didn't realize your lab would be high energy? Or you didn't realize that there are houses to rent that allow pets?). I'm sure they get so irritated dealing with ignorant jerks all day who can't shell out a few bucks to take proper care of their animal. They deal with the WORST of pet owners most times, which is how they get the animals in the first place. It's not stellar pet owners (usually) who are giving up these animals.

Get over it. Really. If you don't want someone to do a home inspection (which really is to make sure the home is DECENT (not perfect) and there are no dogs chained outside or living in squalor), then BUY a dog somewhere.

If you have a problem with the groups wanting $200 for a dog, oh well. Do you know how much it costs to spay and neuter a dog? Or to give ALL vaccines, heartworm meds, etc? It's not cheap. You can get a "free" dog and rack up more than that in the first vet visit. 

And you know what the best thing is? If you don't want to get a dog from a rescue, you don't have to! You are free to get whatever dog you want from whatever breeder you want. You can find a responsible breeder, or you can find some jerkface breeding subpar dogs who doesn't give a rat's behind WHO buys their "puppys." 

So, you can either go ahead and lump ALL rescue groups together and say they're doing HARM (HAHAHA!) or you can realize that there are some that do a fabulous job of rehoming animals who have come from crappy situations from crappy pet owners. It's their choice to do their best to make sure the dog fits with the new owner, to avoid the dog being given up again.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Oh, and plenty of breeders have questions for prospective buyers, too. IMHO, any breeder who wouldn't at least ask for a vet reference for a buyer is a crappy breeder. I know of a breeder who wouldn't sell a dog (small breed) to anyone with big dogs in the house. On the other hand, some view dogs as commodities...who cares who buys it, as long as they have the money. 

This is why people have the option to look around and get a dog from whichever place they feel is best for them.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Where should you get your dog from? Well, you could contact breeders. Let them know your circumstances. In a litter there can be one that is die hard go-go-go right next to one that is relatively calm and might be happy in a smaller environment with a lot less work. This is how I got my border collie. I found a breeder of working dogs, this was when border collies were first being accepted in the show ring. I wanted one that was not going to run down the road and herd the neighbor&#8217;s cattle, but had the instinct for my small herd of sheep. He worked out perfectly and would probably work out for you (I am also big on training). But, border collies are not as hard as Aussies as a general rule. 

You could contact vet offices. Far and wide, especially ones in rural areas where this breed would be more prevalent and are familiar with farm dogs. They sometimes are aware of this litter or that dog, or have a dog dropped off/left behind. A dog unhappy in an apartment with a ten minute walk in the evening may do great on a small piece of acreage. 

You could still look at rescues. Try a breed of the right size, look on Petfinder, and you might find an Aussie mix. I&#8217;m in Boston terrier rescue, and we sometimes get a Boston X chihuahua, or Boston x pug. Visit animal shelters. They sometimes don&#8217;t know what a breed or mix is and will have collie shepherds that are really not that mix at all. You might find a purebred Aussie or an Aussie mix that has been mislabeled. If you are concerned that an Aussie rescue might think your operation is too small, you probably won&#8217;t have that problem with a mix or misidentified dog.

Another option are sheep shearers. They may have Aussies, or know someone who does. A shearer goes all over the state or even the region and is bound to run across herding dogs or know someone who is planning a litter or wants to rehome a dog.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

I'm guilty of a couple generalizations in this thread... I know we all have different experiences, but sometimes we all just need to vent. I also don't think anyone's opinion here was out of line. We all have some.

As for rescues... I think they're a great thing on the whole. I wish I knew how to sort out the ones flipping strays for a living and the great ones. I think we mostly have great ones in WI. I don't think $200 is too much for a rescue doing all the work, spaying/neutering, deworming, taking care of any other needs, finding fosters. For most people it's a great deal. They save a dog, follow the vets orders, and never blink. Somebody has to take all those dogs.

For me... I went to craigslist, kept a dog out of the shelter/rescue network, took care of all the backlogged vet stuff they hadn't done, and I have an awesome dog. But even that can be a challenge. There are dog flippers on craigslist. Some people just collect strays and basically sell them. But just be diligent.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

I don't have any problem with rescues in general. Some of them do fine work. I have problems with rescues turning down what should be a stellar application. Which is what I feel has been happening.

Extremely dog experienced home, money for a proper rehoming fee, two healthy, fixed, active, medium-sized, trained and socialized dogs, UTD on shots, vet records for years, grain-free dog food, 6' fence around the whole (huge) back yard, I do agility with my own dogs, home inspection OK, regular income, someone home most of the day, proof that I move my dogs with me when I move, own my own home outright, dog parks nearby, dog owners as references, training courses lined up, no cats, no kids... On paper, I SHOULD be a great home.

I'm like, what more could you possibly want from a dog home? Oh, right, I own a WHOPPING 12 chickens and 14 rabbits. That's, like, 30 animals! That's animal hoarding right there.  (lol, they should meet some of the people on here with flocks/herds of 100+) Not to even mention that I breed and eat them!?!?

I actually read this great article someone wrote, telling a story about being at a rescue seminar. They held up a list of commonly asked questions that rescues use and told everyone to put their hands up. A room full of hundreds of rescue workers and vets and vet techs, almost all of whom owned animals. Then they told them to put their hand down if they said no to any of the questions and started reading them off. By the end of the application there were about ten hands still raised in the whole room, but the whole room was full of professional animal caretakers. Almost nobody in the room qualified to have a dog adopted out to them.

If that doesn't say "too strict of standards", nothing does. :T

See, Maura, and therein lies the problem. You, a rescuer, are telling me to _go buy a dog from a breeder_. That seems a little counter productive to wanting to get animals out of shelters and into homes. And if I have to, I will. But it sure leaves this impression that they're not super eager to get the dogs into new homes. I mean, I keep hearing "Don't breed dogs, rescue a dog, don't buy dogs", so when someone is like "Also, don't rescue. We don't need you." _from the rescues_ it leaves this impression that the situation isn't all that urgent after all.

I mean, it's not like I've been applying for a specific dog. If I was, that would make sense. But I am reaching out to rescues saying "Here is my situation. I do not care about gender or color. I can even probably handle what many people would consider a problem dog and here's proof of it. Will you adopt a dog to me if one shows up who will meet my needs?" and they say "no". 

(Also, never heard that border collies are LESS driven than Aussies? Always heard they had waaay more energy and lots of drive, less trainable to a home environment. I have been tentatively reaching out to BC rescues as well, since they also have to potential to be a good fit.)

So I will probably buy a dog. But we'll see. I have time. And yes, this is exclusively a venting thread.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

I just double checked my local shelters, incidentally... I do that once in a while. One local county shelter only had one dog up for adoption in the whole entire shelter. 

Another only had three dogs that weren't pits. (Now THERE'S a breed that really needs to be rescued, not purchased...) They were all hunting dog mixes (lab, golden, coonhound, etc.).

So maybe it really isn't very urgent at all, in reality, and the breeders are serving a purpose.

I mean, I know how to search petfinder and stuff. Just not much going on there and the rescues I HAVE contacted have turned me down.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Border collies are real energetic, but tend to be softer than Aussies. BC, sheep; Aussie, cattle. Rough coated collies and shelties softer than either, less energetic.

And in my post I recommended breeders, vets, sheep shearers, shelters.

Myself, I have had one dog from a shelter, three rehomed privately, and one puppy from a breeder.

I really have no problem with going to a breeder. Just make sure they are breeding for form and temperament. I hate to see people taken advantage of.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Ah, I understand now. You're talking about herding style. That's a good point. Aussies are pushier and use more force as opposed to just intimidation. That makes sense. Would a BC still be able to push a couple cows around if they need to?

In any case, the point is you're telling me to buy a dog, not rescue when there are dogs in rescues who supposedly need good homes.  I'd like to give a dog who needs a home a good home. Not much I can do if I get turned down by rescues, though.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

Tell all your doggy friends that you do agility/whatever what you're looking for and let word get around. You could likely find a good dog that way that just doesn't fullfill what the current owner needs.

By the way, my Chica (BC) was bred by farmers who had a large hog farm. They used the dogs to move the hogs, so the dogs had to be pushy, quick, and very agile. Just a different type of herding than sheep, ducks, or cattle.

Mon


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

ChocolateMouse said:


> In any case, the point is you're telling me to buy a dog, not rescue when there are dogs in rescues who supposedly need good homes.  I'd like to give a dog who needs a home a good home. Not much I can do if I get turned down by rescues, though.





Maura said:


> You could contact vet offices. Far and wide, especially ones in rural areas where this breed would be more prevalent and are familiar with farm dogs. *They sometimes are aware of this litter or that dog, or have a dog dropped off/left behind. A dog unhappy in an apartment with a ten minute walk in the evening may do great on a small piece of acreage. *
> 
> *You could still look at rescues. Try a breed of the right size, look on Petfinder, and you might find an Aussie mix.* Iâm in Boston terrier rescue, and we sometimes get a Boston X chihuahua, or Boston x pug. *Visit animal shelters.* They sometimes donât know what a breed or mix is and will have collie shepherds that are really not that mix at all. You might find a purebred Aussie or an Aussie mix that has been mislabeled. If you are concerned that an Aussie rescue might think your operation is too small, you probably wonât have that problem with a mix or misidentified dog.
> 
> Another option are sheep shearers. They may have Aussies, or know someone who does. *A shearer goes all over the state or even the region and is bound to run across herding dogs or know someone who is planning a litter or wants to rehome a dog.*


She mentioned several options other than buying from a breeder.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Good to know, frog. Thanks.  Lol, since I am suburbia of a major city, most of the people I know who do agility etc. think I am not a very good animal owner, exclusively because of my rabbits and chickens. But the animal friends I have who don't think that have their feelers out.

Just checked out some BC rescues in my area. They all want a non refundable fee just to submit an application whether or not they approve you.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Kate, you're beating a dead horse. :T And some of the things you highlighted are literally buy a dog from someone.

"They sometimes are aware of this litter"
"A shearer goes all over the state or even the region and is bound to run across herding dogs or know someone who is planning a litter"

Also, Petfinder = rescues, local shelter = discussed already as having none (and also kind of a rescue).

I've been looking on CL and the papers, bulletin boards, had feels out and such. I'm not a dingus. Seems like not a lot of people looking to rehome their BCs or aussies in my immediate area.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Kate, you're beating a dead horse. :T And some of the things you highlighted are literally buy a dog from someone.


It sure seemed you missed some of Maura's suggestions, since you said the only option she gave you was buying a dog.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Sorry, OP. Some of the rescues seem more like animal collectors. They seem to think that no one can take as good of care as they can, so they won't let the dogs go to new homes.

I got a free Australian Shepherd off of Craigslist. He's the farm and ranch type with a hard coat, a hard head, and he is hard-charging high energy. He should have never been placed as a family pet and that family could not stand him a moment longer. 

I no longer have a farm, so Wyatt came home to be a house dog. He has been hard work, but we love him and he wants to be a house dog, so we have managed to work it out. Working dogs do not have to work livestock. They will do any work that you can explain to them and they will be happy to do it.

I have a serious suggestion for you. If you want a dog to work your livestock, even a little bit, don't get an adult from rescue. Go to a ranch and take a pup from a planned litter with working parents. The reason is that stock dogs do not like to unlearn what they have already learned. That was the biggest problem with Wyatt. He had been started wrong, raised wrong, learned wrong things and he was unwilling to give that up and learn to do things my way.

You have to consider the safety of your small animals. If is easy to train a young pup to leave the chickens alone. It is something different to bring in an adult dog who is already a stock killer (and they won't tell you that when they are trying to rehome him) and to try to keep the little livestock safe while you try to retrain the dog. Stock killing is difficult to break.

In my area one of the humane societies always has cattle dog cross pups available. Those would work well for you. Also, many times one of the ranchers will have a planned litter with proven working dogs.

I notice that the "work" done by many cattle dogs and Ausies is to ride around in the pickup truck and go everywhere with their owner. Those are trained dogs with good manners that are happy to spend their time "going with". They might work cattle, they might not. If they don't work livestock, they are still happy dogs to do their job of accompanying.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Oregon, thanks for a very thoughtful post. I worry that a professionally bred stock dog might be too much for my needs. While I intend to continue to expand over the next decade, I don't expect it will be possible for me to expand so much that I will be moving more than five head of cows, or a dozen sheep.

I have been stating on all my rescue applications that I would prefer a young dog (under one year) so I could socialize them to stock animals properly, but was open to age because I would seriously consider an adult if they were the right dog. I genuinely believe that most rescues would tell you if the dog were a known stock killer, as they do test them against cats and children... But they probably just don't know if the dog kills animals.
I am familiar with stock killing dogs. My husky killed four rabbits and six chickens in three years... Which is a lot for my tiny operation. And that's not including the wild animals and the stray cat she brutally murdered this summer... I finally have her trained not to go after the livestock, though. But it sure was a struggle for about 18 months and sometimes she still wants to give chase. But I watch her, and she doesn't touch the birds or buns any more. This summer she barreled straight through some temporary fencing, right through the entire flock of chickens without touching a single one, all to attack a marauding groundhog that she flushed from my garden. She knows what she's allowed to chase now.

So definitely familiar with that. And I agree, younger is better. I'd love to have a dog willing to "go with", but I also love working with and interacting with my dogs. I love putting them to a task and watching them do it. I'm looking forward to pursuing dog number 3 with a fervor.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

I love when the unhelpful annoying posts are already blocked or ignored .... I get to see responses to things I never wanted to read and I am far happier for it ..... The secret to success is life is learning how to use a social media and forum block buttons and have a trigger happy finger in response to BS

BTW just for giggles , I am a sheep shearer 

I am sure that you will find the dog you are looking for, I am quite sorry that you have to deal with BS. I have felt the frustration many times and now pretty much only work with private individuals although I do have a couple contacts in Jack Russel Rescues that contact me when they have dogs that are not suitable for any other situation.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Well, Jreed, if you're ever over in the great lakes area, let me know. XD I think I'd trust your thoughts on working dogs. Your pack is amazing.

There's an AussiexCorgi cross I'm considering on petfinder. :O She's one state away but nine weeks old. Corgis are technically a herding breed.... They were originally cattle dogs. Herding videos of them seem a little disorganized and rambunctious (lots of running in circles barking) but they all look like "in training" videos, not "been doing this for 1 year or more" videos.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

OMG! Baby Corgi's are the cutest thing EVER! I had a dog that I showed in breed and at one show I let him play with a young Corgi that another handler had there. My dog was RUINED! If there was a Corgi anywhere near the ring, he was VERY difficult to show, he wanted to play with the Corgi!

I have seen Corgi's herd sheep and they can do a much more than adequate job of it!

Mon


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

By the way, if you haven't checked out hoobly.com, that seems to be where a lot of rescues and puppies are listed these days. Maybe everybody else knows that and I've been under a rock, but I stumbled across it a couple weeks ago. Had no idea.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

MDKatie said:


> It sure seemed you missed some of Maura's suggestions, since you said the only option she gave you was buying a dog.


Every suggestion offered ended in buying a dog. from this or that source.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

mnn2501 said:


> Every suggestion offered ended in buying a dog. from this or that source.


Please go back and read the bolded quote I posted.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Nono, Mnn, Kate was right.

She ALSO suggested rescuing a dog from this or that source.  Very productive when people won't rescue to you.

Wiscto, unfortunately Hoobly is a VERY bad place to look for a dog (though it's ok for some other animals, like rabbits). Most of the listings are scams. I tried when I was looking for a husky a few years back. The number of people who said their mom had died and wouldn't I wire them the money so they could ship the puppy she had just gotten last week to me was overwhelming. I hears six variations on that same story in one day. Hoobly for dogs? Never again. Bleh. Even newspaper classifieds are more reliable.... :T

Frog, I believe I will consider applying for the dog.  Their application is base and poorly written (with questions like; "Pick one, if you were moving, what would you do with the dog? Let it go outside? Leave it on a farm? Give it to a kill shelter? Have it put down? Or never mover where you couldn't bring your dog?"... Gee, I wonder what the right answer could POSSIBLY be?) but otherwise looks reasonable.

The worst that happens is nothing happens.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

ChocolateMouse said:


> It's just very frustrating trying to be a decent person in the suburban pet world sometimes.


I get what you are saying, but a lot depends on what you are looking for. My vet has the personality of the Grim Reaper, but he is a really great surgeon. Before him we tried out a few different places. One lady practically fileted a beagle fixing her, one acted like if you feed your pet anything other than the pet food they sell in their office, you are abusing it. One lady is really good but too far a drive. She donates a lot of time to injured wildlife and looking for homes for old pets or treating them for poor people. The other place is buddy buddy with the humane society and charges a fortune--I am not sure who is scratching whose back there.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Omg, they are asking $650 for this mixed breed puppy. Mind you, the dog is fixed and microchipped... But we have a local shelter that charges $66 for their fixed, utd on shots dogs. For $650 I could literally purchase an AKC registered working dog from a breeder and have it come with it's first round of shots, great lineage, and a health certificate.

Thus I think most peoples complaints about rescues.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Omg, they are asking $650 for this mixed breed puppy. Mind you, the dog is fixed and microchipped... But we have a local shelter that charges $66 for their fixed, utd on shots dogs. For $650 I could literally purchase an AKC registered working dog from a breeder and have it come with it's first round of shots, great lineage, and a health certificate.
> 
> Thus I think most peoples complaints about rescues.


They are out to make money as they get a discount from the vet for anything that was done to the dog, and the reputable breeders does not


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Jreed said:


> They are out to make money as they get a discount from the vet for anything that was done to the dog, and the reputable breeders does not


Jeeze no kidding. 600 is around the price range of a spay around here. I always assumed 200-400 dollars is okay for a no-kill rescue, even if they get a lot of donations, in part because some of the dogs basically get held onto indefinitely and that can add up. But if they're getting a big enough discount on vet bills and food, plus donations, $650 would probably turn quite a dang profit, especially if they're a high-turnover kind of shelter.

I'd love to see the shelter laws in each state someday, I'm just too lazy to look it up. Kind of seems like there should be some better laws in place...but then I guess half the shelters would shut down.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Rescues sometimes get healthy dogs that don't cost them much (maybe a few vaccines, maybe just heartworm meds, etc). Sometimes they get dogs that are in terrible shape, and need surgery, rehabilitation, spaying/neutering/ etc. The money they "profit" off of the healthy dogs goes to pay for those dogs who cost them hundreds in vet bills. 

And not all rescues get much in the way of discounts from vets. Sometimes they'll get a little discount, but it's not half price or anything. 

My parents ran a greyhound rescue for years when I was younger. They would get dogs off the track and adopt them out as pets. The fee for adopting one was $350, and that covered transportation (they had to get dogs from NH and FL most times, and tracks aren't going to lose money transporting dogs), heartworm meds, flea/tick meds, and a starter kit with a muzzle, leash, collar, and brush or something. There's probably more that I'm forgetting.

Some of you hear $350 for adoption and think it's outrageous. Really it barely covered their costs. 

*Some* rescues charge pretty high prices, and I don't always think they're reasonable. Most charge reasonable prices. I agree that $650 sounds high, and the only time I've seen a rescue charge that high of a fee is when they're adopting out highly-sought after lap dogs...I always felt they were charging more b/c more people wanted those floofy dogs.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Omg, they are asking $650 for this mixed breed puppy. Mind you, the dog is fixed and microchipped... But we have a local shelter that charges $66 for their fixed, utd on shots dogs. For $650 I could literally purchase an AKC registered working dog from a breeder and have it come with it's first round of shots, great lineage, and a health certificate.
> 
> Thus I think most peoples complaints about rescues.



It is about $225 here for shelter dogs. Cats I am not sure the price of, but they are not particularly good with even trying to place those. I have been told but don't know for sure that they make money selling the cat bodies to some company that resells them for biology classes and the like.


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## CottageLife (Jul 20, 2009)

If you are near Bowling Green Humane Society in Ohio, check them out! They are a fantastic shelter. I've gotten many of my foster dogs from there over the years.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Bowling Green is not so far. I wonder if they'd have the right breeds. Not been seeing them in shelters but I can certainly reach out.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

My daughter's family got the guard dog puppy they were looking for, by asking their vet if they knew anyone who raised that particular breed. So, vet's, or friend's vets might be a good place to find your dog!

Mon


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Well, if I wanna buy a dog there's plenty of places around to buy one from. Lots of em will sell to me. I don't need to talk to anyone if I wanna find a good breeder. I have 3 on tap if I want to buy one in the $600-$800 range, and they're in the paper and various classifieds if I want one in the $300-$400 range (though less trustworthy).

Plenty of places to buy a dog if you want one. It's easy. It's proving MUCH harder to rescue than to buy!


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## bobp (Mar 4, 2014)

I've run into ignorant judgments over the years with my hounds. One spring years ago I was taking a litter of weaned pups to a guy's house to allow him to take his pick for stud fee. He had been in a car accident and couldn't drive so I loaded the pups into my dog box and headed to see him. They were in the box 20 min, fat glossy, happy registered Walker pups. We stopped for breakfast , (had a hungry toddler) and while eating I looked out and a lady was unloading the pups into her car. I went out and asked what she was doing and she began to rant and rave about them being abused and forced into a cage. I politely tried to reason with the woman while her husband/man stood eyes down embarrassed. Then a cop pulls up to get Breakfast. He advised her to put them back before he had to get officially involved. Her husband helped me out them back while she laid prone in the parking lot and screamed and cried. She worked in the local humane society she said. It was insane.


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## bobp (Mar 4, 2014)

I had a vet refuse me service for a castration on a young hound because I wouldn't consent to his vaccination service. He lectured me about using ivomec in dogs while standing in front of a havaheart poster. 
I had someone pick up a good Walker female of mine one night. I looked for her for 2 weeks. I finally got a tip about the county humane society. I had called twice and left my number ect. I walked in with my wife and low and behold there was my female. WITH my collar name tag right on top. The refused to let me take her. They said I had to pay adoption fees, and have her spayed ect. I lost it. I went to the truck and got a leash, I went in and took my female and then called the Sherriff. He said he had warned them previously.

There are a lot of fanatics every where. I feel your pain, most should simply mind they're own business and leave you to your own devices. What kind of dog you own ect is none of they're business.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Well, yeah, if you own a hound of any sort, you automatically relinquish your right to not be harassed. Good buddy of mine had a hound go missing last year. Middle of nowhere on national forest, while engaged in a lawful hunt, with all necessary permits. He just blipped off the GPS screen, near a fire trail. Another person engaged in the hunt met an SUV coming out of the area, but didn't get a signal. After going to the last place they had a signal, and hunting with a fine tooth comb, they found the collar in a creek with the guts busted out. After extensive searching, he found his dog, a couple weeks later, in a shelter a couple counties away. His collar with his name and phone number was still attached. Nobody bothered calling him, his friend's girlfriend just happened to go in the place looking, because she was in the area. Dog had a freeze brand, so pretty easy to recognize. It never occurred to anyone that the dog belonged to anyone, such as the person whose name was printed on the collar. It was just an abused hunting dog that they were rescuing. Whoever originally rescued it must have gotten tired of it, or it got away from them when they got to town. Compared to what most pet dogs look like, with an unhealthy layer of blubber, any well conditioned hound is going to look abused to people that don't know any better. They bashed what they thought was a cruel shocking collar with a rock, and what they bashed was actually the dogs lifeline and connection to it's owner. They tried to get him to neuter his dog and pay an adoption fee to get it back, when he went back with law enforcement to explain that they were technically in possession of stolen property, they decided to forgo those formalities.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

bobp said:


> I had a vet refuse me service for a castration on a young hound because I wouldn't consent to his vaccination service. He lectured me about using ivomec in dogs while standing in front of a havaheart poster.
> I had someone pick up a good Walker female of mine one night. I looked for her for 2 weeks. I finally got a tip about the county humane society. I had called twice and left my number ect. I walked in with my wife and low and behold there was my female. WITH my collar name tag right on top. The refused to let me take her. They said I had to pay adoption fees, and have her spayed ect. I lost it. I went to the truck and got a leash, I went in and took my female and then called the Sherriff. He said he had warned them previously.
> 
> There are a lot of fanatics every where. I feel your pain, most should simply mind they're own business and leave you to your own devices. What kind of dog you own ect is none of they're business.


My vet won't take an animal for surgery unless it has been vaccinated for parvo and rabbies. It isn't about forcing you to vaccinate so much as it is protecting the other people's animals from exposure to things your animal may be carrying via their blood and other fluids. Except when my last dog needed surgery, I did not vaccinate her and he was fine with treating her otherwise as long as he was not keeping her overnight. If he kept them in an isolation building, he would have had to staff that and the procedure costs went up astronomically. His clinic is in a converted double garage at his house and as long as they are vaccinated, he can just keep them there and monitor himself.


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## Jen_Jen (Jan 10, 2017)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Omg, they are asking $650 for this mixed breed puppy. Mind you, the dog is fixed and microchipped... But we have a local shelter that charges $66 for their fixed, utd on shots dogs. For $650 I could literally purchase an AKC registered working dog from a breeder and have it come with it's first round of shots, great lineage, and a health certificate.
> 
> Thus I think most peoples complaints about rescues.


That is way too much. One of my cats I originally adopted out, but it didn't work out, so she came back to live with us.

My total costs to get her ready to adopt came to over $600 (spay, shots, etc. She was pregnant, which made the spay more expensive. We couldn't take on the kittens. Sad.) 

I asked for only 1/3 of my costs as an adoption fee. The adopters gladly paid it. The fee should cover your costs and screen out unsavory people. It's not meant to create profit. Just wow!

Jen M. (a solo rescuer)


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## Jen_Jen (Jan 10, 2017)

wiscto said:


> Jeeze no kidding. 600 is around the price range of a spay around here. I always assumed 200-400 dollars is okay for a no-kill rescue, even if they get a lot of donations, in part because some of the dogs basically get held onto indefinitely and that can add up. But if they're getting a big enough discount on vet bills and food, plus donations, $650 would probably turn quite a dang profit, especially if they're a high-turnover kind of shelter.
> 
> I'd love to see the shelter laws in each state someday, I'm just too lazy to look it up. Kind of seems like there should be some better laws in place...but then I guess half the shelters would shut down.


There DEFINITELY need to be better laws in place. The law does not cover much. I lived in one of the wealthiest counties in MD, and the shelter there was AWFUL. The animal services unit has since been taken over by the county police department, and they built a new, larger, more modern facility, but I have no idea if the organization is actually any better. LOTS of horror stories about the old one.

Jen M.


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## Jen_Jen (Jan 10, 2017)

bobp said:


> I've run into ignorant judgments over the years with my hounds. One spring years ago I was taking a litter of weaned pups to a guy's house to allow him to take his pick for stud fee. He had been in a car accident and couldn't drive so I loaded the pups into my dog box and headed to see him. They were in the box 20 min, fat glossy, happy registered Walker pups. We stopped for breakfast , (had a hungry toddler) and while eating I looked out and a lady was unloading the pups into her car. I went out and asked what she was doing and she began to rant and rave about them being abused and forced into a cage. I politely tried to reason with the woman while her husband/man stood eyes down embarrassed. Then a cop pulls up to get Breakfast. He advised her to put them back before he had to get officially involved. Her husband helped me out them back while she laid prone in the parking lot and screamed and cried. She worked in the local humane society she said. It was insane.


Good lord!


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## Jen_Jen (Jan 10, 2017)

I'm a solo rescuer. I'm a a solo rescuer, because over the years, I've tried to become involved in various rescue organizations based in the area where I grew up. What I saw was a boatload of crazy. No--I'm not being judgy. I'm telling you what I honestly saw. I met people who were way more concerned with Being in Control than with what was truly best for the animals. 

One organization turned me down as a volunteer, because I refused to travel an hour away to one of their events so they could observe me handling a dog on a leash. Mind you: 1) I'm a life-long dog owner. I've even done my own training in the past and 2) the person who managed to say this to me with a straight face did so while I was at work...at a kennel...THAT WAS HOUSING SOME OF THEIR DOGS. They said it WHILE I WAS WALKING ONE OF SAID DOGS.

My experience is that there are a LOT of people in animal rescue and other care industry jobs who should not be, because they want to be in charge and are not so much interested in the welfare of their animals/patients/clients.

Then, there are the inter-group politics: Oh. We couldn't POSSIBLY adopt to YOU, because we know you are friends with Person We Don't Like.

There are a LOT of really good rescues out there. Sure. They want to know that the animal will be safe and well cared for and will not come back to them. Animals get harder to adopt the more times they bounce back. Not having a stable environment (ie, being adopted and brought back again and again) takes an emotional toll, so they end up being less adoptable as time goes on. They probably also are concerned with liability (having never worked for a group, I can't say for sure, but it would make sense.) If they adopt to someone who can't handle the animal and it bites or scratches a family member, particularly a child, well, some people would hold the rescue responsible. They also just plain want to be sure the animal won't be mistreated or neglected.

Now, for me, an in-depth interview would suffice, along with a written agreement that says that the animal comes back to me if it doesn't work out. ...But people are just crazy.

I just do my thing. If an animal comes along that I can help, I take them in, clean them up, get them vetted, and put the word out. I spend a lot of time talking with potential adopters. I go by feel/chemistry. If I get a bad feeling (like, a SCARY-BAD feeling,) I decline. If I get honest, stratightforward answers and feel OK about things, I move forward.

I'm not rescuing right now, because we have a house full: 8 cats, 2 dogs. My partner loves animals as much as I do, but he doesn't want to take on any more, even just temporarily. I've made it clear, though, that if I come across an animal in crisis, I WILL help it. How can I not?

Anyhow, please don't write rescues off wholesale. Do what you need to do to secure the dog you want, but always, ALWAYS consider adopting, even if you have to travel a little.

Side note about holding onto a good vet like gold: That's just what I've done. My vet is back in MD, a little over an hour away. I take my 7 cats there, two at a time, as needed. The other cat and the dogs were my mom's, and I use their vet here in town. I don't care for them that much, so once the cat and dogs are gone, I will probably take future pets back to the one in MD. That office is AWESOME, and they are one of the cheaper vets in the area.

I apologize if I've been rambly. It's 2:15am here. (I have sleep issues.)

Good luck.
Jen M, WV


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Thanks, Jen. I'm still reaching out. I'm willing to drive whole states away and I have people willing to make that trip with me, so that's not a problem. I drove 5 hours one way for my husky because I liked the breeder and the price was good. (Rescues fell through there, too. I wanted a puppy and the rescues said they maybe had puppies once a year... But that's reasonable because we're talking purebred large breed puppies ending up in a rescue. Not all that common.) But it's going poorly.


Incidentally, if people are wondering we have two clinics in my city that do low cost fixing of animals. It costs a whopping $175 for a 60lb adult dog to get fixed, male cats are $25. My family has has 7 animals fixed there including 3 female dogs and 4 cats. Most major cities have a clinic like that. All they do, day in and day out, is spay and neuter pets so they're very good at it.... 

Since I've found purebred shepherds (or working line mixed breeds with lineage) on CL for $300 with deworming and first shots (sometimes even MDR1 testing!). I could purchase a purebred puppy, get the puppy fixed regardless of gender, and get 3 rounds of shots from our local petstore clinic ($20-$50 a round) for less than $600. So a rescue had better run less than I could get a fully vetted deliberately bred dog with healthy lineage for... I mean, good grief!


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## Queen Bee (Apr 7, 2004)

Don't feel bad! I have had Dachshunds for almost 40yrs.. We have a farm , people throw out animals ..not one but multiples at a time. At our peak we had 14dogs all sizes and ages and 3 cats. My vet kept saying " you need one more, so we will be tied" .. I did not have a public job. All our kids were grown and on their own.. when my old Doxie died,I decided I would do the rescue! Chose the dog, sent in all the forms and never heard back. After two months, I contacted them... I was told,I was a horder...at the time we only had two dogs... vet and friends gave great reviews... So I was disappointed, sad. Then I contacted another rescue.quailifed asap, got two Dachshunds and she said she had one reference say "if there was reincarnation they wanted to return as my dog!!!


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## Lady89 (Feb 22, 2014)

animal professionals are arsehols for the same 3 reasons all professionals in any profession are. 1. some are just conartest. 2. a very uncomfortable number have no flipping clue what they are talking about but think they are professionals. and finally #3 actual professionals, group 3 has to deal with group 1 and 2 as well as whatever hair brain standard, regulation, or completely unfounded belief the general public has come up with that week


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

Lucky for me I am just a regular guy with regular dogs that loves to spend time on farms ...... Im not a expert or a professional 




Lady89 said:


> animal professionals are arsehols for the same 3 reasons all professionals in any profession are. 1. some are just conartest. 2. a very uncomfortable number have no flipping clue what they are talking about but think they are professionals. and finally #3 actual professionals, group 3 has to deal with group 1 and 2 as well as whatever hair brain standard, regulation, or completely unfounded belief the general public has come up with that week


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## manolito (Apr 7, 2013)

I am not a professional I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn. I have only been raising sheep since 2003 Cows before that another story. 

Dogs fill a funny place in our society. When my Border Collie died of old age at 16 I was left with two thoughts I can do this without a dog and I need a dog for me not the sheep. I called a rescue in a town 60 miles from the ranch. We agreed to have them bring out two dogs and they would watch them work. (An inspection by any other name is an inspection). It was raining and when I put a 20 lead on the first dog and started into the lambing pen the woman yelled don't the dog will get muddy. This didn't work out as you can imagine. 

We have a county run shelter that makes a run every wednesday to the local land fill I will leave that to your imagination. I brought in 160 pounds of dog food in 40 pound bags and donated it and explained what I am looking for. Nothing worked out. they put me in touch with a rotweiler(sp) rescue because they often got working dogs. I made many trips to their facility 220 miles one way and ended up with these two dogs above. A Kelpie mix and a Heeler. They are working sheep and learning ranch life. They have gone from hyper dogs to hard workers and a part of the family. 

I see life through a different lense than many here so take this as a personal experience not a recommendation I have a full time job taking care of me and some would say I don't do that particularly well.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

I'm going to be honest and say I've not seen many Aussies that would work great as a herding dog...most of them can't herd their way out of a paper bag and that's true. Most of the herding dogs I've seen out there that will work is the border collie, kelpie, Old English sheepdog, catahoula, blackmouth cur.....etc...you don't see Aussies at herding competitions for a reason. The herding instinct has been bred out of them in exchange for the long hair that tangles easily and they still retain their high energy behavior. What really gets my goat is the people breeding the so-called mini Aussies! They're not 100% Aussie...some breeder had a breeding accident between a Pomeranian and an Aussie and the end result was so cute that the breeder kept on doing it until the dogs gradually became smaller and smaller.


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## CelestielAcres (Sep 16, 2016)

ChocolateMouse said:


> I don't get it...
> 
> I run a wee little hobby-size farm (about a quarter acre) in a suburb. I have two dogs and rabbits and chickens. I have a 6' fenced in back yard, no kids, no cats, I work from home. My current dogs are healthy and well behaved. They do agility, chase off hawks and ***** faster than I can, and occasionally pull some carts for me so they're in great shape, but otherwise just snuggle with me. We feed a premium grain-free dog food and have tons of dog experience. I'm looking to move out to a bigger plot of land in the next couple years (we're actively making plans) and invest in a few head of larger livestock. A few sheep, maybe some goats, small pigs or a pair of cows... And I was hoping to get a dog to help me work them. I thought an Aussie would be a good fit as they're not quite as work-heavy as a border collie. Whenever you watch a video about Aussies or Border Collies, they come with a warning tag about how sometimes their herding instinct is too much for a normal home to handle and can cause them to herd cats or kids. Which to me means that a wee lil hobby farm should be perfect.
> 
> ...


I think what you are dealing with is more a "liability" issue for the groups as well as those who believe all dogs belong in the house on the couch 24/7. I know when I started my search for LGDs most groups wouldn't adopt to a working home unless the specific dog came from a working home because they can't guarantee the dogs ability . I ended up finding quality breeders for my working GPs. 

That said there are groups out there who aren't "crazy." I have dealt with some of those but I also deal with my local rescue groups that I foster thru. I see the crazies in working with them but they CAN be great groups to work with if you can look past some of the drama. ln regards to adoption fees. 200-250 isn't that high, get a dog spayed/neutered, then add in shots,a fecal, HW pills (if needed for your area) and a microchip. Heck that is a minimum. Others have HW that is a 400ish treatment depending on size or mange etc.... The greater sized dog the higher the costs go for spaying, HW treatment etc. Most adoption fees are also based on demand for breeds etc if you are finding higher costs that appear breed specific. I don't know of or have ever even heard of a rescue that is pulling in "bank" on their dogs. For every one dog that *might* make a profit on a rescue dog, they've had 10 that cost them 3x their adoption fee. Meanwhile, puppy mills in shacks with dead dogs charge 4x the "rehoming" fees and people gobble them up.

Edited to add...I am a licensed foster through the state and I do have intact working dogs/outside herding dog. Many of us rescuers really do have a "real" idea of life with dogs.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Ted, I see aussies herding all the time. Some of the other people here have also spoken about working Aussies. I have two friends with Aussies (who have health problems preventing them from being anything but house dogs) who try to herd cats, children or even strangers in their house. Heck, if Corgis can herd cows and ducks, an aussie can.  In any case it's no huge deal because....

Celestial, we could easily end up with a high energy dog with no real herding instinct. That's OK and we've put that on our applications. The plan was to get a third dog first (we were originally considering a weimeriner or a pitt!) and the idea of a herding dog came second. We have two high energy dogs as it is. We'd just LIKE it if the dog could herd our animals. I also would have LIKED it if my husky didn't try to murder my chickens and rabbits. Yet, despite several murders (including my animals, wild animals, and a stray cat my neighbor was feeding) my husky still lives with me here. Through long years of training, we've not only found a way to make peace between her and the farm animals, but even redirect her bad behavior to driving off predators and nuisance animals. We're dedicated to owning dogs, and we have a history that shows it. We'd be happy to explain this to any potential adoptee, but we're not even getting past the application process.

Also, I am totally fine with paying a reasonable, even a high, rehoming fee... But given that I've had a few groups asking for $500-$650 for a dog I'd have to drive over a few hours for I feel like that's unreasonable because I could literally buy a purebred puppy from a local farm with their shots, MDR1 testing AND get them fixed for less than that.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

I wouldn't necessarily call that type of herding actual herding. There's a reason why other breeds are more popular than Aussies because they get stuff done. Aussie's way of herding is more of a hazing....basically they weave back and forth while pushing cattle from behind. They're also more laid back too with less strong eye compared to border collies. I've tried contacting numerous Aussie breeders who claim their dogs herd or are from herding parents and none of them will back up their claims. I know of maybe 2 that I would consider buying from. One guy in Alabama and one person a few states over. Anything with Hart (not in any way related to me, btw) bloodline is good and Slash bloodline is good also. Look on Aussie herding on Youtube if you haven't already. I don't call it herding from what I've seen. Pincie Creek bloodline is good also. 

It's a dirty secret that there is a working bloodline vs show bloodline out there. I had a friend who spent over $1k getting a pup from what he was told was working bloodlines to find out the dog preferred herding (pushing actually) a ball and catching frisbees vs herding. He ended up having that dog neutered at 2 or 3 years old. He has decided not to try to get into herding and focused more on Aussie rescue instead. http://theaustralianshepherd.net/wordpress/aussie-basics/the-two-types-of-aussies-working-v-show/

I also dislike extremely long hair because it's hell to deal with when you're pulling out briars and stickers, etc....I did run across one Aussie who did have what I would call short hair and it was kinda wiry...waterproof. His breeder said he shaved that dog once and his hair came back in short and like that for the rest of the dog's life. I liked that hair.

I'm more accustomed to the catahoula style of herding, I guess. They're primarily head dogs whose sole job is to go and put the critters in a herd together and you ride or walk from behind and they'll keep the herd together without having to be told to go lie down or stay there, etc..I personally hate having to tell a dog repeatedly where to go and what to do like border collies, etc....catahoulas can be used to push critters through a chute but they have to be introduced to the concept first before they'll start wanting to know what you want them to do it.....


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Ted, all the aussie breeders around here with working aussies have videos on their websites of their dogs competing in herding competitions or herding on their individual farms. So I figure that's pretty good at backing up their claims.  I'm well aware that in every working dog breed, there's "working" lines and "show" lines. It shows very clearly on the websites when you look at the dogs and how they are presented. 

For example, one local website for working aussies is actually a cattle ranch website with a page on their working aussies that work their cows. The pictures always show the dogs being active, even if sometimes those shots are of dogs jumping agility hurdles rather than pushing cows. (Though many of the shots are of them actually working.) Most of these breeders will at the bare minimum have a special page dedicated to showing their dogs at work, if they don't show them as their main photos, and they will probably have videos.

One show aussie website locally shows every single dog in perfect profile with a show stance. Lots of dramatic profile shots of sparkling clean dogs and adorable head tilts as the intro pictures. Which might be OK, if it weren't for every picture thereafter just being pictures of those dogs at shows.

It's really not hard to tell when it comes to breeders if you know what you're looking for in the slightest. The two lines of dogs also look different. The working aussies seem leaner (or maybe just less fluffy) and something about the faces and the set of the ears is longer and less cute and puppy like.

Which is why, if I'm gonna take a rescue... They had best not be charging me the same prices as a purebred working dog! I mean, if I end up with just a great, active, pet dog. I'm OK with that. But I'm not going to pay working line purebred dog prices for it, or jump through a million hoops....

Ultimately, the point is it doesn't really matter if their working instinct isn't ideal. I don't have 300 head of sheep to move.  I just would like a dog that CAN herd to back me up. I can handle my animals on my own if I need to, should the dog be unable to herd. It would still have a home.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I kind of take issue with people referring to certain herding breeds as "Extremely high energy". The parents of our one dog were working farm dogs on a Dairy farm. The father was a Border Collie/ Australian Shepard mix and the mother was a Kelpie/ Blue Heeler mix. "Ellie" looks very much like her mother. You can see the Kelpie and Heeler in her. She is extremely intelligent. More so than any dog I have ever owned. And she is high energy and almost tireless, but she has her mellow moments too. When ever I hear of people giving the "high energy" line they sell it like the dog is an overgrown Shrew on speed. Not so. I recently had to put down my Llewellyn setter. ( wow, just typing that brought tears to my eyes). She was also a "high energy" dog who also had a favorite cushion on the couch. Don't be afraid of active dogs. They simply get more done in less time. I like their attitude. It's not energy, it's joy.
They let us know what a pleasure it is to live.


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## manolito (Apr 7, 2013)

JJ Grandits

To say I am sorry for your loss is a rather empty platitude since each of us knows the void left when we lose a dog. 

The use of hyper active is a term I use to disuade a back yard confinement of a working dog. I try to discourage people from taking a working dog and locking them up 20 hours a day. The results of that behavior are ruined dogs and ruined landscaping. 

Couple of years back I got bucked off a horse he backed into a choyo cactus that broke off and stuck in his tail. My Heeler was completely out of patience with me by the time I could get up and go back to work around the place. I can't imagine my dog locked in a back yard. When I go to the small town 20 miles down the road I wish you could see the working dogs in the bed of the truck or on the flat bed just one big mud ball except the smile on their face. This is the life a working dog was meant to have.

Just one old guys opinion. I think cruelty to an animal comes in many forms working them is not one of those. I have a well made dog compound with shelter and all that goes mostly unused my dogs prefer settling in by digging a wallow in a snow bank. Go figure. 

Funny how some of the best dogs come out of a jumped fence parentage.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Manolito, given how active our dogs are I would agree with you but... On messy days we often play fetch up and down stairs just to burn off some of the exuberance. Right now we have 8" of standing water in the back yard and the chicken fence is down from the foot of snow earlier this week. No way that I can send my dogs out there right now. (I really oughta set up an area to wash my dogs in the garage to save my floors...) But lots of people have house dogs with that energy level and manage them through walking, playing, and other exercise.

When I was in an apartment still some years back, my neighbors had a border collie mix that was just EVERYWHERE. But they found ways to manage their dog with walking, puppy playdates, dog parks, etc. It really depends on the management of the owners I think.


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## manolito (Apr 7, 2013)

I will never argue what works for people and what they do with their animals I can only say how I feel and how I treat my dogs. 

Sounds like we have similar weather. Keeping the house clean this time of year is tough we burn wood so the mess of that alone is difficult to keep up with. 

On a day like today working out side the dogs will stay outside all day and we have a water trough with a heater in it. At night I throw them in the trough wipe them down and lay them on a dog pallet by the wood stove. Then a hot dinner of dog food and hot water mixed. Then kennels in the garage. 

My dogs are a lot like my jeep get it muddy clean it and repeat often. Won't work for all the people just what works for me. At times my wife would prefer I got in the trough before coming into the mud room.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

manolito said:


> JJ Grandits
> 
> To say I am sorry for your loss is a rather empty platitude since each of us knows the void left when we lose a dog.
> 
> ...



I do agree. no herding dog is an apartment pet. Maybe we are just active people. As long as Ellie is with me or one of our family she is happy. She worships my son. Actually, she worships everyone. My great nephew comes over for the weekend and will play fetch with her till that dog is crawling on the ground. Kids got a good arm. 
If you are an outdoor kind of person and want a great companion I can not think of a better type of dog. Smart, easy to train, loyal, great watch dogs. Been trying to teach her to weed the garden. Not quite there yet.


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## CelestielAcres (Sep 16, 2016)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Ted, I see aussies herding all the time. Some of the other people here have also spoken about working Aussies. I have two friends with Aussies (who have health problems preventing them from being anything but house dogs) who try to herd cats, children or even strangers in their house. Heck, if Corgis can herd cows and ducks, an aussie can.  In any case it's no huge deal because....
> 
> Celestial, we could easily end up with a high energy dog with no real herding instinct. That's OK and we've put that on our applications. The plan was to get a third dog first (we were originally considering a weimeriner or a pitt!) and the idea of a herding dog came second. We have two high energy dogs as it is. We'd just LIKE it if the dog could herd our animals. I also would have LIKED it if my husky didn't try to murder my chickens and rabbits. Yet, despite several murders (including my animals, wild animals, and a stray cat my neighbor was feeding) my husky still lives with me here. Through long years of training, we've not only found a way to make peace between her and the farm animals, but even redirect her bad behavior to driving off predators and nuisance animals. We're dedicated to owning dogs, and we have a history that shows it. We'd be happy to explain this to any potential adoptee, but we're not even getting past the application process.
> 
> Also, I am totally fine with paying a reasonable, even a high, rehoming fee... But given that I've had a few groups asking for $500-$650 for a dog I'd have to drive over a few hours for I feel like that's unreasonable because I could literally buy a purebred puppy from a local farm with their shots, MDR1 testing AND get them fixed for less than that.


My first thought based on this would be to ask if you have applied to "foster" for any groups, if there is something more specific that is the issue you may get a more direct follow up. I can't say why your apps are being denied, having a farm seems to be a stupid response because you say you have a fenced backyard, assume other pets are utd on shots and spayed. (sorry if I missed that, I didn't reread back through) you would be a good candidate for most general groups requirements (Power breeds have diff requirements). 

Fostering could be a great way to find that "right" fit if you are open to it. Fosters are ALWAYS needed. Foster and request breeds that you are interested. If you have one that doesn't fit, you are just the temp home until they find their forever home. If you find the right one, we call that a "foster failure!" I will add that many foster based groups adopt out to "fosters" at a different rate as well. I have two inside foster failures and the adoption rates were based on "actual" vet fees paid for the dogs.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

TedH71...you are aware that certain breeds have different herding styles, right? Seems like just maybe you like a particular style, consider it more useful.

I love the herding breeds, some more than others. I absolutely love Border Collies, had one from working lines (hog farm) and she came with an "Off" button installed. I tend though, to have Belgians, and they have a different herding style...not bad, just different.

I had two dogs, different litters, from the same breeder. She bred her dogs for show AND working. Both dogs were herding tested...one dog looked at the sheep and said "YEEhaw!"...we had trainers drooling to train him. The other dog walked into the ring with the sheep, said, "Hi guys! Oh look, tootsie rolls! Come on, I'll share, they're good!"

Just because a dog is from herding lines, does not mean it is meant to herd.

Mon


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Mon, correct. I've also found out that the New Zealand Huntaway is a breed I would consider buying because their herding style is similar to the catahoula but they're not as rough on the sheep. They bark while working because where they typically live is in the mountains and the owners need to know where the dog is working. There are quite a few NZ Huntaway breeders in America if you Google to find them apparently.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Celestial, I have not considered fostering. My dogs are utd on shots and fixed. However you bring up an excellent point I'd love to hear some thoughts on. 

A lot of applications ask not about pets or dogs, but they ask things like "Are all animals on the property spayed, neutered and current on all vaccines?", or "How many animals do you own" or "Do you own any small animals", "Do you keep any of your animals outside" etc. How do I go about answering these?

The "correct" answer on paper is all my animals are fixed and utd on shots and I only own two indoor dogs but that's not really true at all. I have 12 unfixed adult rabbits, and I raise my chickens vaccine free (though I am NPIP), I actively breed both, and of course I keep them outdoors. If they ask about pets I can be mostly truthful and say my rabbits/chickens are not pets if asked. But many times they ask about animals in total, not pets. A lot of applications don't leave room for explanation until much later in the notes section. Should I just outright lie about it? 

I also don't know how to explain that they're livestock and therefore the loss of a few laying hens over the years to an under trained dog is not a deal breaker for me without coming off as very callous.

How do I handle that situation of trying to explain to a bunch of crazy animal lovers that I'm not a hoarder even though I have 30 animals on a suburban property, and that my animals are gonna end up in a stewpot in the next two years anyhow so loosing a couple to a dog is not critical?

I think that's the #1 area I am running into problems on applications. :/


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## CelestielAcres (Sep 16, 2016)

ChocolateMouse said:


> A lot of applications ask not about pets or dogs, but they ask things like "Are all animals on the property spayed, neutered and current on all vaccines?", or "How many animals do you own" or "Do you own any small animals", "Do you keep any of your animals outside" etc. How do I go about answering these?:/


The groups I have worked with have always told me not to list the livestock. They are inquiring about household pets, mainly cats and dogs (small animals being chinchillas, ferrets, guinea pigs etc.) 

Now if you had a house chicken, then I am sure they would want to know about that. I would just list that you do own some outside livestock (whom I assume are in cages/chicken coops with fences separating them from the dogs) and leave it at that. 

If they have additional questions it will much easier to explain/discuss on the phone or in person. This is when you could talk to them about the fact that you have a dog who killed a few chickens but you worked through it and wouldn't get rid of the dog. 

"Do you keep any of your animals outside?" Dogs chained outside or kept in outside kennels all the time is more so what this question is asking.

You raising livestock for your personal consumption (or selling for that purpose) has no bearing on who you are as a pet owner. When I have anyone scoff at the fact that we raise and butcher our own animals, I simply ask them if they eat meat. If they respond yes, I tell them that I appreciate knowing where the food on my table came from and how it was treated until it got there. 


Most foster and adoption apps are pretty much the same so you could always list that you are looking to foster/adopt and just put the breeds you are interested in. "All-breed" rescues can be a bit easier to work with and you could still find the breed you are looking for, so keep those in mind too along with the breed specific rescues. Good Luck!


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Thanks. Doesn't explain why I never hear back from groups who don't ask questions with those broad definitions but gives me something to go off of in the future.


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## CelestielAcres (Sep 16, 2016)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Thanks. Doesn't explain why I never hear back from groups who don't ask questions with those broad definitions but gives me something to go off of in the future.


Yeah I am not sure what to say there other than they are "flakey!" Even if they didn't want to adopt a dog to a "farm" the professional thing to do is email or call them to let them know why their application isn't moving forward. 

Many groups have phone numbers for board members/directors listed on their websites, send out a follow up email or call. If they have a facebook page make a public comment on the page stating how unprofessional it was that you never heard back. 

Where are you in Ohio? Can PM if you prefer. Just wondering how far of a road trip it would be..... worst case meeting somewhere if we could find the type of dog you were looking for. I just adopted out an Australian Shepherd red merle with blue eyes late last month through Saving Death Row Dogs in KS. I only had him as a foster for 2 weeks.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

I don't mind. I live near a big city, so it's fine. But unfortunately, I'm about as far from you as possible, being in Northeast Ohio near Cleveland. However, I'm willing to drive fairly far (I drove 5 hours one way for my husky), but I need to consider gas (and possibly a hotel if it's more than a 5 hour drive one way) into what I think is reasonable to spend on a dog... Bearing in mind I could have had any number of puppies by now for $300 from breeders less than an hour from my home.
The rescue that wanted $650 for a puppy I would have to drive 6 hours for and then lying and saying it was cheaper than buying a dog? Definately in the not reasonable category.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

There's an Australian Cattle Dog at our local shelter, here in MD. It's about 7 hours from Cleveland, according to Google.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

MD, not quite what I'm looking for (and pretty far away at that) but I can look. Can you post a link? Is it an adult dog? Do they know anything about it other than it's an aussie cattle dog?


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

ChocolateMouse said:


> MD, not quite what I'm looking for (and pretty far away at that) but I can look. Can you post a link? Is it an adult dog? Do they know anything about it other than it's an aussie cattle dog?


Here's their FB page. He's 2 years old. Scroll down to the Feb 16th post. 

He's called Mate.


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

He's a QT pi, and it looks like he has a lot of attention on their FB page already. I'm a little hesitant on the ACD's cause they tend to be more mouth-y, right? Everything says Aussies are versatile, Heelers bite. I worry about him being able to help me corner a rabbit or move the chickens or move future ducks without injuring them. I'm not sure he'd be a great fit.
I wanna rescue and I will keep a dog if it doesn't turn out the way I'd like in any case. But I'd also like to set myself up for success, especially if it requires a larger investment of resources.


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