# Clueless



## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

I’m clueless on this topic and looking for advise or help from someone with more knowledge. We have our appt at our raw land 11.50acres with our local electrical co op on Monday morning. At this appt I’m suppose to find out how far I can go back from FM rd if I want overhead or buried if I want extra security lighting and bulb selections etc I don’t know what I want but that I want the lowest bill possible even if it means high upfront cost. What types of setups are there such as wind or solar for homeowners like myself that could help offset my kilowatt usage from my electric co op. I currently live in a deregulated area so I have super low bills because I can shop around that won’t be the case at the new place. I’m stuck with the co op. Thanks in advance


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I was going to send you a private message. Apparently you have your settings so that no one can contact you.

I would be glad to talk to you on the phone about my experience with the coops in two states.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

If you want to go solar, I can calculate your needs and tell you how to set it up..


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Paying for it is the challenge.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

You need to find out the rules from the coop for wind and solar. Being a coop they don't have to allow them if they don't want to or have net metering plan. Until you find that out no since in talking alternative energies.

Getting any kind of security/yard light from them will cost both in a monthly rental fee and electricity usage that you can't control. If you need lighting put in your own that you can control when it's turned on.

WWW


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

wy_white_wolf said:


> You need to find out the rules from the coop for wind and solar. *Being a coop they don't have to allow them if they don't want to* or have net metering plan. Until you find that out no since in talking alternative energies.
> WWW


I'm not familiar with all the laws everywhere, but I'm pretty sure the utility provider, regardless of who they are, have no say in a person setting up solar or wind.. 
Their authority stops at their meter... if it didn't, they could then tell you what bushes you can plant and how to cut your grass.

They have the authority to say you can't pump energy backward through their meter, but they can not stop you from going with a hybrid off grid system. 

There are solar inverters that have what's called "Grid Zero" technology.. they'll store energy but they won't allow it to be pumped into the utility grid.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wy_white_wolf said:


> Getting any kind of security/yard light from them will cost both in a monthly rental fee and electricity usage that you can't control.


Here it's just a monthly fee and the power isn't run through a meter.
It's better to just buy your own lights and put them on switches to be used as desired.

If you want to learn about solar set ups, go here and read:

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum

There are some *real* experts there who have been into it for many years.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Murby said:


> I'm not familiar with all the laws everywhere, but I'm pretty sure the utility provider, regardless of who they are, have no say in a person setting up solar or wind..
> Their authority stops at their meter... if it didn't, they could then tell you what bushes you can plant and how to cut your grass.
> 
> Federal regulations don't require coops to allow customer generation. So if they don't want you to have solar or wind they don't have to allow it. I don't know of any state that has overruled this.
> ...


See above.

WWW


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

About Texas solar industry. No state set standard for net metering.

https://solarpowerrocks.com/texas-solar-power/why-texas-dont-mess-with-solar/

WWW


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I got a rough estimate for installing solar on a new build outside of Austin. 

$25,000

I just finished construction of an energy efficient home. My electric bill is under $80 per month. 

It is not even remotely cost effective to install solar for my situation.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

First off, please quote using the forum function, it makes it much easier to respond to as it eliminates confusion.



> Federal regulations don't require coops to allow customer generation. So if they don't want you to have solar or wind they don't have to allow it. I don't know of any state that has overruled this.


I'm looking into this now but it doesn't make sense. That statement would technically mean you couldn't put a solar panel on your chicken coop, or even use a solar powered calculator. I see no way in which they could legally enforce these rules. That said, I'm not at all familiar with the actual laws in place and maybe perhaps they can do whatever they want. As I said, I'm doing some research now on it.
In my research, I'm a bit bewildered by some of the terminology as these articles and media reports keep using the term "distributed solar" or "distributed generation".. those specific phrases usually mean a solar system that is tied to the grid power and almost never means an off grid system. Not sure if the media reports are using the appropriate terms however as one would need to be very familiar with solar to know.

Still researching



> Yes they can by federal regulations. Since the customers are the coop owners they can set whatever rules they want and federal regs allow it.


Can you post a link to this regulation? I can't find anything that would prevent someone from adding an off grid/hybrid system to their home. I found the parts where the coop can prevent net metering or prevent you from tying into their system, but nothing that would prevent someone from installing batteries and running off them AND having the grid power as backup.
As I said above, the terminology is confusing to say the least.



> They don't store any power. Just don't allow it to be pushed back to the grid.


I own one (Outback Radian 8048A), yes they do store the power. The way they work is to charge the batteries with solar and run the home off that stored energy. Should the home use more power than the solar array and battery can provide, they then suck in power from the grid to assist the batteries.
They will not, however, send excess energy from the array back into the grid once the batteries are fully charged.


One more thought about the coop's preventing solar.. Seems to me that every homeowner has the fundamental right to protect their family and their homes. That said, a solar backup system would go a long way to preventing a basement from flooding or food spoilage should the coop grid go down due to storms. 

What are they going to do, say "oh, you own a portable coleman generator and that's not allowed" ???

If the coop was somehow legally able to prevent these systems from being installed, they would be exercising a level of power and control over people that is only found within homeowner associations. 

I find it very difficult to believe they have that much control and am still of the "uninformed" opinion that all the controversy is centered around grid tied systems.

As I said, the terminology is very confusing and stuffed full of "what ifs" and "how about this" questions. What if you put up a shed 300 feet from your home and want to put in a solar powered light??? What if you have a pond 300 yards out and want to install a solar powered aerator? Are they able to force you to run $1000 worth of power out there? What about solar garden lights? Or a solar powered security light?

It doesn't add up.. but then I don't have all the facts yet so I say that with reservations.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Looking further....

https://www.solar-estimate.org/solar-panels/texas#solar-incentives


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

From my co-op.....

https://www.pec.coop/your-service/solar-options/system-interconnection/

When you interconnect your own generation equipment with our distribution system, you’ll get more than a measure of grid independence. Whether you own solar panels, wind turbines or other small power-production equipment, the meter at your location will measure the amount of electricity you draw from our system as well as the amount of electricity exported to our grid by your equipment. This is called net metering.

Until your bill is reduced to zero, you’ll be credited at our full rate for the energy you generate. If you generate more power than you use during a given billing period, that amount will be credited at our net energy credit rate, which is our fuel cost with no capacity component.


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I was going to send you a private message. Apparently you have your settings so that no one can contact you.
> 
> I would be glad to talk to you on the phone about my experience with the coops in two states.


Sorry how do I change the message issue I’m new


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

Murby said:


> If you want to go solar, I can calculate your needs and tell you how to set it up..


Murby that sounds great. I’m pretty sure I will still need electricity from my local provider but I hope to start small and grow to know more about ways I can rely on them less and have my own sources more. Even if it’s just small ways. Anything helps right.


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

wy_white_wolf said:


> You need to find out the rules from the coop for wind and solar. Being a coop they don't have to allow them if they don't want to or have net metering plan. Until you find that out no since in talking alternative energies.
> 
> Getting any kind of security/yard light from them will cost both in a monthly rental fee and electricity usage that you can't control. If you need lighting put in your own that you can control when it's turned on.
> 
> WWW


I was under the impression they don’t really care what I do as long as it don’t involve them. If a person buys a crap load of solar landscaping lights nobody says nothing. Same like now I have 4 exterior solar lights at each corner of my home my electric company don’t know and don’t care no way could they monitor all that. I’m not sure what you mean by saying I need to speak with the co op first?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Which coop is it?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You can click on my name and one option that comes up should be to start a conversation.

I think if you go to the top of this page, you will see a little person thing. Click on that and look in the privacy options. Scroll down. The start conversation option is near the bottom of the privacy page.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Txyogagirl said:


> Sorry how do I change the message issue I’m new


*"Welcome to HomesteadingToday! - A User's Guide"*
https://www.homesteadingtoday.com/threads/welcome-to-homesteadingtoday-a-users-guide.561375/


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Txyogagirl said:


> Same like now I have 4 exterior solar lights at each corner of my home my electric company don’t know and don’t care no way could they monitor all that. I’m not sure what you mean by saying I need to speak with the co op first?


They usually don't care what you do as long as it's not connected to their system in any way.


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I got a rough estimate for installing solar on a new build outside of Austin.
> 
> $25,000
> 
> ...


Yea but if you plan to stay in that home forever and pass it to your children eventually it will pay for its self. If I live to be 85 I will spend 50k in electricity if my bill was 80.00 like yours which we know it won’t be cost of living will increase quite a bit in 50 years and I also plan to have many more children who I’m sure will waste power to me 25k sounds reasonable. What kinda maintenance cost? You never mentioned how many sq ft your new home was?


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Which coop is it?


Well I’m currently not in the co op yet but it will be trinity valley co op.


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

Bearfootfarm said:


> They usually don't care what you do as long as it's not connected to their system in any way.


That’s what I thought anyways my new place is so far in the sticks and property lines are heavily treed and we plan to keep them that way for privacy I really don’t think I will have an issue like the others are speaking of. I have deed restrictions on my land and nowhere does it say anything about windmills etc I have no homeowner association and I’m outside the city limits so basically I have no rules which is why we didn’t to move to the country. City life sucks lol


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Txyogagirl said:


> That’s what I thought anyways my new place is so far in the sticks and property lines are heavily treed and we plan to keep them that way *for privacy* I really don’t think I will have an issue like the others are speaking of.


There is no "privacy" anymore.
If you think there is, look at Google Earth .


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There is no "privacy" anymore.
> If you think there is, look at Google Earth .


Sorry I just re read my comment and had a ton of misspelled words above lol typing to fast on my phone. Yes I know google earth is good and bad. Well compared to where we are now the new place is amazing bc currently we live in a subdivision been here 12 years and have gone stir crazy. Now with kiddos we just have no room. Our home is a great size and beautiful but I could literally spit on my neighbors house. I grew up in the country and couldn’t wait to leave now that I have my own family I can’t wait to get back to the country funny how your life changes.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Txyogagirl said:


> Sorry I just re read my comment and had a ton of misspelled words above lol typing to fast on my phone. Yes I know google earth is good and bad. Well compared to where we are now the new place is amazing bc currently we live in a subdivision been here 12 years and have gone stir crazy. Now with kiddos we just have no room. Our home is a great size and beautiful but I could literally spit on my neighbors house. I grew up in the country and couldn’t wait to leave now that I have my own family I can’t wait to get back to the country funny how your life changes.


If you're in a rural area, the images from google earth are usually two to three years old. 

I moved my chicken coop two years ago and there's not a website on the internet that shows the change yet.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Murby said:


> there's not a website *on the internet *that shows the change yet.


That doesn't mean there's not a Govt site that doesn't show it now.
Even if it takes a year or more, it will eventually be seen.
Counties also fly aircraft for various purposes.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I was on a solar company site the other day that had a FIND YOUR ROOF feature. I was stunned that the pic was recent. I just finished my house.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

There is another way to look at a 25,000 $ investment. We look at it as part of our retirement portfolio. A majority of our portfolio is stocks and bonds. I worry everyday that wallstreet/ the government will make a good portion, maybe all of it dissapppear (again). At least if (when) the economy should tank the 50,000 we have invested in our off grid system will still be operating. In the mean time we look at the 200$+ a month we don't pay to the coop as a dividend that will not go down only up. Oh that 30% tax credit has helped a lot at tax time.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Alaska said:


> At least if (when) the economy should tank the 50,000 we have invested in our off grid system will still be operating.


Except for the batteries that will likely need to be replaced in 5 years or so if you maintain them as directed (or sooner if you don't)


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Except for the batteries that will likely need to be replaced in 5 years or so if you maintain them as directed (or sooner if you don't)


 True. I did leave that out, and when people say cool you don't have an electric bill, I say oh yes I still do, batteries. I hope the improvements in batteries will be significant before we have to replace them. I put there cost against the 20,000$ the coop wanted to bring electricity to our build site.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Good info!!


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

Mostly it was personal choice. WE love being independant. The off grid thing has kinda become an addictive hobby. Probably should have bought a boat.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Alaska said:


> True. I did leave that out, and when people say cool you don't have an electric bill, I say oh yes I still do, batteries. I hope the improvements in batteries will be significant before we have to replace them. I put there cost against the 20,000$ the coop wanted to bring electricity to our build site.


Batteries are no longer a real issue.. That's old and outdated information.

The issue is that if you purchase a cheap battery, you get cheap performance.
A quality Trojan battery can last 20 years and come with 17 year warranties.

For instance, their SIND06 610 battery at $550 6v @472ah.. A 48 volt system would be $4400 ($550x8) and provide 22.5kWh of storage.. At a 50% DOD, you'd get around 3500 cycles. Assuming you replaced it in 10 years (a bit early), you're at around $400 per year or something like $36 a month. And that's assuming you cycle them every day to 50% DOD.

Or going one step better, adapting an Electric vehicle battery to store energy. Salvaged EV batteries can be had for $2500, provide the same energy or more, and have a comparable cycle life.

The debate on batteries can be long and exhausting but the old "it lasts 5 years" statements are just not accurate unless using junky golf cart batteries.


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

Murby said:


> If you're in a rural area, the images from google earth are usually two to three years old.
> 
> I moved my chicken coop two years ago and there's not a website on the internet that shows the change yet.


I currently live in a subdivision in a very large city and we replaced our red glass front door to a wood door and removed 3 windows installed a 5ftsidewalk over the 3 ft and all this was 9years ago and have yet to find a google image with the changes. Basically the house looks totally different not sure why they haven’t updated it. Well the new place have tree lined fence on all sides so that helps and I plan to plant more trees asap


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

Alaska said:


> There is another way to look at a 25,000 $ investment. We look at it as part of our retirement portfolio. A majority of our portfolio is stocks and bonds. I worry everyday that wallstreet/ the government will make a good portion, maybe all of it dissapppear (again). At least if (when) the economy should tank the 50,000 we have invested in our off grid system will still be operating. In the mean time we look at the 200$+ a month we don't pay to the coop as a dividend that will not go down only up. Oh that 30% tax credit has helped a lot at tax time.


I like the way you think. Tell me more how the tax credit works please. We put new windows in our current home in 2017 and got a nice tax credit this year but it’s only for the one year does solar differ and if so how?


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

Murby said:


> Batteries are no longer a real issue.. That's old and outdated information.
> 
> The issue is that if you purchase a cheap battery, you get cheap performance.
> A quality Trojan battery can last 20 years and come with 17 year warranties.
> ...


Forgive me what does DOD mean?


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Txyogagirl said:


> I like the way you think. Tell me more how the tax credit works please. We put new windows in our current home in 2017 and got a nice tax credit this year but it’s only for the one year does solar differ and if so how?


Fed credits alone are 30%, then you get to stack any state or utility credits on top of that. States vary, check your state for credits.
I'm guessing if you're in Texas, big oil will prevent any credits but you never know. I'm in Michigan and don't have any either, but the 30% fed credit is more than enough.

$25,000 is a high price for a solar install.. probably average if you have it done but you could cut that to less than half if you do it yourself.

Here's a picture of my array:









That's about 8kw of solar using the best components made..(nothing Chinese at all). I spent $13,000 but it would have cost near $30,000 if I didn't do the work myself. 
My electric bill used to average $140 per month and now its $8 for the meter.. and I might eliminate that too with batteries.

Don't be fooled, its not difficult to do yourself.. yes, lots of work, but technically its not hard.. most of it is plug and play in nature. 
Just make sure you use NON Chinese components and don't let anyone talk you into using them.. USA,Canada, Japan, Taiwan, Germany.... heck.. even Mexico.. all fine.. just stay away from the Chinese stuff.

Also, make sure whatever gauge wire is recommended as your feed out line going to your home is over-sized.. The bigger the wire, the better.. and you want to go as big as you can. A lot of folks don't add up the math concerning the voltage drop long feed lines incur... The difference between a 2% drop and a 1% drop can add up to hundreds of dollars over the years. 

Ground mount systems, if you have the room, are far better than roof mounted.. If you have a choice, go for the ground mount as they are easier to clean and maintain and produce more power because of better airflow.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Txyogagirl said:


> Forgive me what does DOD mean?


DOD = Depth of Discharge
Lets say you have a 12 volt battery that has 100ah of capacity.. 12v x 100ah = 1200 watts of stored energy.. At 20% DOD, (1200 x 0.2 = 240 watts) So a 20% DOD means you can use 240 watts of energy and your battery will still be at 80% of its total storage capacity.. means you have 80% left in the battery.

A 50% DOD means you use half the battery's capacity. When it comes to lead acid batteries, the further you discharge them, the faster you kill their life expectancy. Batteries that are only discharged to 20% DOD (Still have 80% of their total capacity) will last a lot longer than batteries that are discharged to 50% DOD.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

There are some people really knowledgeable about this subject here:
https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/foru...nissan-leaf-battery-for-offgrid-storage/page1


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

One reason why I haven’t done is is because of my brand new metal roof. Not punching holes. 

I *love* the freestanding array.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Txyogagirl said:


> I was under the impression they don’t really care what I do as long as it don’t involve them. If a person buys a crap load of solar landscaping lights nobody says nothing. Same like now I have 4 exterior solar lights at each corner of my home my electric company don’t know and don’t care no way could they monitor all that. I’m not sure what you mean by saying I need to speak with the co op first?


As long as it's not connected to your electrical system they shouldn't care. But if you try install anything connected to the electrical system they may and will if it can feed back to the grid.

WWW


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Murby said:


> First off, please quote using the forum function, it makes it much easier to respond to as it eliminates confusion.
> 
> 
> I'm looking into this now but it doesn't make sense. That statement would technically mean you couldn't put a solar panel on your chicken coop, or even use a solar powered calculator. I see no way in which they could legally enforce these rules. That said, I'm not at all familiar with the actual laws in place and maybe perhaps they can do whatever they want. As I said, I'm doing some research now on it.
> ...


If you don't like the way I responded you are encouraged to report it to the admins.

And you hit the nail on the head. Your complete improper use of terminology. As put you statement is completely false. Inverters don't store energy and zero grid technology has nothing to do with energy storage. It might be best to quit using the terminology until you understand it's meaning. There's already enough people in the green industry misusing the terms and causing confusion that we don't need you to add to it.

The regulation of coops (or lack there of) comes from the original statute that required utilities to allow homeowners to install alternative energy systems. That was put in effect back in the 80's. It exempted coops from the regulation and to my knowledge has never been changed or updated to require them to allow zero grid or any other system that they don't approve. That statute also didn't cover net metering. The feds left that up to the states/utility companies to work out. As you can see from my other post Texas has no state wide net metering plan/law. It's up to each utility how to handle it if at all. If they so desired the could allow you to feed back to the grid with zero compensation. And yes a coop could disconnect your power just because you door is painted green if they so choose. I don't know any that have that rule but they legally could. I'm not saying that's right or wrong just the way it is.

I still stand behind my original statement that if the op wants to do anything with solar or alternative power she needs to find out the rules from them before doing anything else. Without knowing what coop it is there is no way any of us can accurately advise her.

WWW


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I checked. Her coop allows net metering.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

wy_white_wolf said:


> If you don't like the way I responded you are encouraged to report it to the admins.
> 
> And you hit the nail on the head. Your complete improper use of terminology. As put you statement is completely false. Inverters don't store energy and zero grid technology has nothing to do with energy storage. It might be best to quit using the terminology until you understand it's meaning. There's already enough people in the green industry misusing the terms and causing confusion that we don't need you to add to it.
> The regulation of coops (or lack there of) comes from the original statute that required utilities to allow homeowners to install alternative energy systems. That was put in effect back in the 80's. It exempted coops from the regulation and to my knowledge has never been changed or updated to require them to allow zero grid or any other system that they don't approve. That statute also didn't cover net metering. The feds left that up to the states/utility companies to work out. As you can see from my other post Texas has no state wide net metering plan/law. It's up to each utility how to handle it if at all. If they so desired the could allow you to feed back to the grid with zero compensation. And yes a coop could disconnect your power just because you door is painted green if they so choose. I don't know any that have that rule but they legally could. I'm not saying that's right or wrong just the way it is.
> ...


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Nicely addressed. 

I am 63, with the electrical vocabulary of a 4 year old.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Nicely addressed.
> 
> I am 63, with the electrical vocabulary of a 4 year old.


My wife has the same electrical vocabulary and I thought it important that she knows and understands how the solar system operates so she can manage it if something happens to me.

Sometimes technical terms matter and there's nothing that can be done about it, but mostly their irrelevant when trying to convey a conceptual explanation. 
One doesn't need to understand the difference between a tire, wheel and rim, to know what happens when the air leaks out.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Ohms, watts, volts. 

Greek.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Ohms, watts, volts.
> 
> Greek.


Forget watts for the moment.. the basics are Ohms, Amps, Volts, Frequency

You'd be surprised at how similar plumbing is to electrical stuff. The metaphors are endless.

When it comes to Amps and Volts, think of amps as the volume of water flowing through a hose (wire), and think of volts as the pressure pushing that water.

So if you have a very large hose, say 12 inches (Big hose!), but the pressure (volts) pushing the water out of it is very low, you could safely interact with the stream of water.. because even though its a large diameter stream (amps), its coming out very gently due to very low pressure (volts).

Now think of a very small hose (low amps) but with super high pressure (high volts) like a power washer.. The volume of water coming out is tiny, but if you touch it, the pressure will cause it to hurt like hell.. This is similar to an electric fence charger where there is very very high voltage, but very small current (amps).. hahaha.. current, just like a river. 

When you combine very low amps and very low voltage (think small batteries), they are very safe because they can't do much of anything.. 

Think of transistors as ball valves and gate valves that turn the flow on and off and hold back the pressure. You can think of Diodes as one way check valves that only allow flow in one direction. 

The term WATTS is nothing more than a bit of math.. Its simply Volts x Amps and it describes the amount of overall power within a system. 

Ever hear of voltage drop across a long wire or extension cord? Its the exact same thing that happens when you connect a bunch of 50 foot garden hoses end to end and then notice that you don't get as much water out the other side as you do a single hose. The resistance in the hose causing the loss of volume would be considered Ohms.. and when that happens, you lose both pressure (volts) and volume(amps) at the hose nozzle.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

I think earlier someone somewhere said "Please use the forum's quote feature".



> Murby said: ↑
> First off, please quote using the forum function, it makes it much easier to respond to as it eliminates confusion.


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

Murby said:


> Fed credits alone are 30%, then you get to stack any state or utility credits on top of that. States vary, check your state for credits.
> I'm guessing if you're in Texas, big oil will prevent any credits but you never know. I'm in Michigan and don't have any either, but the 30% fed credit is more than enough.
> 
> $25,000 is a high price for a solar install.. probably average if you have it done but you could cut that to less than half if you do it yourself.
> ...


Your system seems awesome. Wish I could build something like that or even half that size. Can you add on as you go? I have the room for it. You explain things really well thank you for that. I guess I just need to do more and more research to learn more about how it all works. My biggest concern is I’m planning to not tie into city water and have bids on getting a well drilled but if my electricity was to go out my well pump wouldn’t work. I wonder how much power batteries and solar i would need to power the pump? How could I find that information out? It seems around here people don’t even consider other power sources which is kinda sad bc we have so much land and sun here in Texas.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)




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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

https://www.rpssolarpumps.com/?gcli...ILuRwL6h-e6Oijc3GwZujt-oOVrMOOCRoCrdAQAvD_BwE


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


>


I love this video thanks how does this differ from a well pump I wonder? He didn’t say how big battery was?wonder where to purchase something like this.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I think I may have to teach you to Google. 

http://www.solarpumpsolutions.ie/


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## Txyogagirl (Jul 4, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> https://www.rpssolarpumps.com/?gcli...ILuRwL6h-e6Oijc3GwZujt-oOVrMOOCRoCrdAQAvD_BwE


I briefly looked over the site thanks so much I will look at it more shortly.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Txyogagirl said:


> Your system seems awesome. Wish I could build something like that or even half that size. Can you add on as you go? I have the room for it. You explain things really well thank you for that. I guess I just need to do more and more research to learn more about how it all works. My biggest concern is I’m planning to not tie into city water and have bids on getting a well drilled but if my electricity was to go out my well pump wouldn’t work. I wonder how much power batteries and solar i would need to power the pump? How could I find that information out? It seems around here people don’t even consider other power sources which is kinda sad bc we have so much land and sun here in Texas.


Thanks! 
I can help you in any way you need with figuring what you need and the best way to go about installing based on your resources (machinery, skill set, etc)

You can add on as you go if you plan for it ahead of time. For instance, I wasn't entirely confident in the calculations for the annual power generation and was worried I could be undersized so I installed an oversized feed line to my array. My system, at full power, will push out 25 amps @240 volts, which is more than enough, but it doesn't always do that, especially in the winter.. So I thought I might want more panels in the future and to avoid having to dig another ditch going back to the house, I installed a 4ga line which is good for up to 70amps.. not only do I avoid the vampire sucking voltage drop, but I can easily double the size of my system if I wanted. 
The thing is, I'd have to set up another inverter because my inverter is actually running at 125%.. In other words, my inverter can only pump out 6000 watts of power (6100 actually), but I have 7560 watts of solar panels. 

I am considering going all electric in my home which means I would need more solar generation. If I decided to go that route, my add-on panels would use individual microinverters instead of a main "string inverter" it uses now. Currently, all 28 of my panels go back to a single large box the size of a suitcase.. But it is also possible to tie individual panels to their own micro-inverters that are the size of paperback novels and mount right to the backside of the panel.. and you can string almost an unlimited number of those together to "stack" capacity output. Its a bit more expensive doing it that way, but provides some distinct advantages such as shading resistance and system redundancy. Microinverters are popular but they are also more expensive by about 25% overall. Not a bad way to go, I just didn't do it that way.

How much solar and battery you will need for your water pump will almost entirely depend on how big of a pump you have and how much water you want to pump with it.. 
Variables are: 1) How much water per day 2) Gallons per use 3) How much sun you get 

Some variables matter more than others.. there's a big difference in a system that delivers 100 gallons per day spread out over 24 hours and a system that delivers that 100 gallons all at once. Battery capacity is important. Its best to take whatever you want and then triple it based on winter conditions when solar radiation is lowest. One thing you DO NOT want to do is end up with discharged and dead batteries as not only will you not get water, but you drastically shorten the life of the batteries. Running batteries down can take their life expectancy from 5 or 10 years to just two or three years, or less.. and fast.

Simple grid tied systems like mine are far less technical than off-grid systems as I don't have to worry about energy storage, battery condition or maintenance, or a host of other variables. I am set up to go off grid if I want as I have purchased all the equipment. It would take me about a week to change my system completely over and re-wire everything. 

Storing batteries outdoors in a box like your video would be a bad idea in cold climates where winter sets in for months at a time.. Batteries do not like to be cold and both lithium and lead acid both have (different) issues with it.

Quite frankly, if you are only worried about short term temporary power outages, you'd be far better off with a generator backup than an off grid solar system. Grid tie is cheap, very effective, and easy.. Of grid is complicated, expensive, and maintenance heavy. Sometimes you just don't have a choice, but if you do, you really REALLY want to go with a standard "net metering" setup with your utility provider..

Of grid for lighting, charging laptops and phones, etc, is fairly easy... but as soon as you start hooking up electric motors, it gets expensive fast.. Much larger and higher quality inverters, battery storage, charge controllers, equipment to analyze performance and maintenance, etc. Stay away from off-grid unless you have no other options or you're a prepper like me with the resources to go that direction.. 

Going off grid is NOT for the technically challenged..


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


>


I'd be very wary of that SPS solar pump website. The first red flag is the total lack of specifications on the components. That's always a big red flag.. 

Find out what kind of batteries they're using, manufacture of the battery, type of battery, amp hour rating.. then find out what kind of inverter, pump, etc.

They don't list any of the important information on their website and that's always a warning sign... Beyond that, all of the specifications are listed under "maximum" which means perfect conditions to achieve that one exclusive spec.. 

Just judging by the size of the box, I can tell you there's no way in the world that thing will perform the way they "imply" it will..

Sure, you might be able to pump 7000 liters per day on a perfect day at the planet's equator with the discharge running 5 feet into a tank with no head pressure, but the reality is going to be very different, and I suspect, very disappointing. 

Diaphragm pumps are also horribly inefficient and have among the lowest performance/energy ratings of all pump designs. They are application specific and in the SPS application on that website, they are trading off efficiency for the ability to self-prime by sucking water from a surface source.

If you're going to drill a well, have them shove a standard submersible well pump into it and design your system around that.. If your situation allows, get the smaller version of whatever your well driller suggests and it will allow you to use smaller system components to power it.. (IE: Smaller generator, smaller solar, smaller inverter, etc)

Be very wary of package deals like that SPS pump system.. most of those types of things are nothing but high profit merchandise for people who don't do their homework.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

It was simply what came up on a search. I know next to diddly.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> It was simply what came up on a search. I know next to diddly.


Do you have grid power available?
Do you have net metering available?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

House is on the grid. Pedernales Electric Coop. Yes, net metering.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> House is on the grid. Pedernales Electric Coop. Yes, net metering.


Then I would definitely go with a grid tied net metered system.. Do you have some kind of record of your historical power usage statistics? Past electric bills for your current location? If so, gather them all up and figure out how much energy you use per year and we can design a system to eliminate as much of that bill as you want. 
If not, then you want to immediately go to your meter and record the date and the reading.. then go back in weekly intervals and record the same and repeat this process for at least a month.. We can then extrapolate how much energy you'll need. This is the first step to solar.. knowing how much you need.

You may also want to do a wind study in your location.. if you're in a windy area, even a small wind turbine can make drastic inroads to compensating for the lack of sunshine during the winter.

I just looked up your net metering rules.. their not bad, but not good either. They allow you to reduce your bill to zero fairly, but if you generate extra power, they buy it from you at reduced rates and then get to sell it back to you at retail, and this is done on a monthly basis which means you can't store up excess energy and suck it back in the winter when you really need it. This is actually fine for summer, but for winter, it will sting unless you have battery storage or you over-size your system. 
This is where wind comes in handy.. you fire up the wind turbine in the windy winter and it makes up for the lost sun power.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

It is a new construction, so there isn’t much history. I only just got my appliances in.

Thank you for the steps for accumulating data. I can start that now.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> House is on the grid. Pedernales Electric Coop. Yes, net metering.


If you go with solar and want a zero bill you will have to design it to produce about 500KWH monthly more than your usage. They don't credit any monthly excess at the full rate or carry it over to cover future usage at full rate. This type of net metering makes it very hard to design a cost effective system that will fully offset your bill.

There interconnect agreement:

https://www.pec.coop/your-service/solar-options/system-interconnection/

Basic explaination of there interconnect billing:

https://www.pec.coop/news/2018/understanding-bill-interconnection/

WWW


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Thanks!

As my bill for the first three months averaged only $60, I am thinking that it may not be cost effective to spend big bucks.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Thanks!
> 
> As my bill for the first three months averaged only $60, I am thinking that it may not be cost effective to spend big bucks.


You'll know more as you settle in over time, but ya, if my bill was only $60 a month, I probably wouldn't have gone solar either.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

During the build, the shell was complete when we had several days of weather with temperatures below freezing. There was no heat in the house, but the inside temperature never fell below 52. 

I may be able to heat the house with a conventional light bulb.


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