# Reloaders: What would you do with this ammo?



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I have 98 rounds of some 308 Winchester made by Magtech. I shot two rounds and realized something was very wrong with it. 

It kicked as bad as a 30-06, and both cases swole up so big I had to use a cleaning rod to tap them out and open the breech.

After doing some research I found out this stuff have been recalled because it had been over pressured by 40-60 percent. (man am I glad I was shooting it out of a good gun that handled it)

The place I bought it didn't want to take it back... Oh well, ,no big loss.. try finding 308 brass now.. 

So anyway, would you pull the slugs, then remeasure and reuse the powder? Use new powder and reuse the slugs? New powder and new slugs?

Just trying to decide what to do with this stuff..


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## robpa (Mar 27, 2013)

pull the bullets, destroy the powder(you probably dont know what it is) and load to specs you have in your reload manuals. Id a raised some noise if it would have been me, that ammo is defective. I would never set foot in that joint again if they wouldnt swap it out.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Yeah.. I called them and talked to them about it. They said since I shot some, they could only take back the unopened box.. That would still leave me with 48 rounds... I also don't want to make the trip to where I got it either.. I don't normally go to that area, as it's a ways away, ,and I was passing through for another reason... 

They had no idea it had been recalled until I gave them the info on it... They said they wouldn't sell the last two boxes they had though. At least maybe I saved someone.. 

I was thinking that.. I got no clue what the powder is, and it may not even be what they claimed they used...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

I'd dump the powder and reuse the projectiles if you can get them out without damage.
Factory ammo often uses strange powders due to blending lots during production.
They can just do test runs for pressure rather than using specific "recipe"

Evidently their QC guy was not doing his job when that lot ran


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## robpa (Mar 27, 2013)

They blend powders but they are of the same type, ball, flake, etc. Its not just a random mix then test kinda thing. They know before test fire nearly how it will perform.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Yeah.. I think I'm going to get me a kinetic puller and try and save the slugs.. 

I've been wanting to get into re-loading for a while, and now that I have a whole lot of reloadable ammo, I might as well get to it.. Used to be all I had was shotgun 45 and SKS... but now I got a lot of other things so it's feasible to invest in the equipment... 

I know.. good luck finding anything to roll your own at this time...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

every reloaded should have a bullet puller , they don't cost much , and can save you a bunch 

actually any one disposing of suspect ammo should have one also , just pull the bullets sprinkle the powder on the lawn


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## Clifford (Aug 14, 2004)

Pull the projectiles and dispose of them and the powder. Fire the primers in the rifle and use the brass for reloading. NEVER reuse a powder or a projectile that you are not absolutely positive of it's true identification.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

The slugs are fine... I've measured everything including the spent brass.. The neck on them swole up real big... It's the powder that is the problem. I've not pulled a slug to see what is in it.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Remove


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Clifford said:


> Pull the projectiles and dispose of them and the powder. Fire the primers in the rifle and use the brass for reloading. NEVER reuse a powder or a projectile that you are not absolutely positive of it's true identification.


If he weighs the bullets and knows the style he can safely reload them...no sense in destroying them.


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## Silvercreek Farmer (Oct 13, 2005)

Got any more info on that recall? I didn't see anything in a google search. One of the local shops had magtech 308 in stock all the way through the scare, makes you wonder why...


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

This recall was a while back, but this was a small shop that had the stuff sitting in storage, and found it when he went looking for ammo after everyone bought all his stuff out.. it was stuck in the back of his storage shed.. 

This stuff is from a tleast 2010, maybe earlier... I can't find the recall info, but it looks like the recall was even older... Like 20 years ago.. 

Here's a review board that shows a lot of people with the swelling and jamming problem.. saw one guy call it jammo ammo.. 

http://reviews.cabelas.com/8815/217...k-ammunition-with-dry-box-reviews/reviews.htm

If you ask me, this isn't 308, but rather 7.62x51... there's a real heavy annealing on the neck.. you usually only see that on NATO ammo. I also weighed the spent cases, and from what I'm seeing, it's a little heavier than what most 308 shells are, so that would also lean to NATO rounds... even though they are stamped 308 win on the bottom


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Huh.. I just found Magtech's toll free number, and customer service e-mail address... I think I'll contact them tomorrow.. 

Who knows.. maybe they might send me some good stuff...


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## dkhern (Nov 30, 2012)

if the necks are swollen sounds like something else going on. chamber shouldnt allow necks to swell excessively. if over pressure i could see blown primers, frozen bolts etc but not distorted necks. i wouldnt shoot any more and id throughly inspecct gun.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Well I just got off the phone with Magtech... As I suspected, this is some older ammo... As in a few years ago this problem really cropped up.

What he said was the annealing was the problem, but I still say there's some issue too with over pressured... I kid you not.. with this stuff, the kick was a lot more than I am used to out of this gun...

Anyway, he said the annealing was bad, and when fired, it would allow the neck to swell up too large, and since it was too stiff, it wouldn't allow it to shrink back to size... 

So, they are sending me a UPS sticker to send these two boxes back to them, and they will send me 200 rounds back... as soon as they can....

I asked him about how well they are getting ammo out to the market, and he said they are way behind and they are figuring three years before they will be back to the pre-ammo rush days... They dieal with two manufacturers... 

I do have to say, man were they great on the phone.. no wait time, and very much wanting to help me out with this...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I don't buy bad annealing , if a steel case shrinks enough to extract , you would have to have one very messed up brass alloy to cause that without also adding over pressure and more than just a little over pressure a 308 is specked at 61k psi most manufacturers like to stay safely below that say 54900 psi would be 10% below max and likely about as high as a commercial manufacture would want to go.

like you said it recoiled harder than ever before , it was most likely to hot , but want to down play that.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I'm sure they didn't want to start paying for gun inspections or something... beats me.. 

I do know that when I opened up the box, the very first thing I noticed was the discoloration of the annealing on the necks... I've never seen anything like that before... I've seen some slight discoloration, but this stuff looked like it went under a blow torch.... 

I showed it to the guy that gave me the gun I was going to use it in, and he said he's never seen anything that dark either.... 

Beats me.. .All I know is they were very good on the phone, my gun wasn't damaged, and I'm having the stuff replaced.... I can live with that.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

dark brass is a sign of annealing , annealing is the heating then slow cooling of the metal that softens and makes more malleable and less likely to split 

annealing re-aligns the zinc and copper bonds to each other, brass work hardens with sizing , shooting , sizing , shooting ,sizing , shooting and it is a common practice to anneal initially then after every 3-5 loadings depending on pressures

normally the only annealed ammo people notice is commercially reloaded 223 

as most commercial ammo is put in a tumbler or vibrator with abrasive media after loading and before boxing to give it that nice fresh from the box shine , you expect when opening a new box of Remington or Federal.
it doesn't mean it wasn't annealed , just that the dark oxidization was cleaned off after it was done

home annealing is done by standing the cases up in a pan of water that comes up to about a 1/4 inch below the start of the shoulder then heat with a torch till the color changes then leave to cool , you don't anneal the head end of the case as you want it harder , work hardened from the forming of the brass.

so the argument of over annealed making it hard sounds backwards but you get new ammo , no damage no foul


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Yeah.. I got no clue what they are trying to pull.. I had never seen discoloration like this... I have to agree, annealing makes it softer... not harder.. but I guess if they over heated, or didn't cool it properly.. who knows... 

I do have to say though, the very first shot I made took me by surprise. I could have sworn I just let go of a hot 30-06 in a 1903... It was almost punishing...


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Nope you have annealing non Ferris (not iron) metal back ward! That way works for iron and steel , for non Ferris heating then quenching softens work hardened metal!
Dutch
And I don't buy the annealing problem either sounds like an overcharge of powder. but that's very easy to prove they acted to endanger!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> it would* allow the neck to swell up* *too large*,


The neck can't "swell" any larger than the chamber


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

It can still swell past tolerances and stick....just not larger than the hole it is in...

What I am thinking is when the round fires, with what they are claiming, it swells outward, and doesn't retract any... Normally it would swell then retract some... kind of like bounce some, like a water balloon would when you tap it while it is resting...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Not retracting would be a trait of the brass itself, and not just the neck, since it's expanding with heat and pressure, and contracting when it cools

The *over **pressure* has more to do with it than the annealing, to me anyway since that can cause to brass to stretch and "flow"

At least you're getting some good (hopefully) replacement rounds


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Yep.. hopefully so... I mean 100 rounds of 308 isn't exactly cheap to eat when they are bad...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Dutch 106 said:


> Nope you have annealing non Ferris (not iron) metal back ward! That way works for iron and steel , for non Ferris heating then quenching softens work hardened metal!
> Dutch
> And I don't buy the annealing problem either sounds like an overcharge of powder. but that's very easy to prove they acted to endanger!



correct i did have it backwards , i was getting my knife making and reloading backwards as i was typing.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Here's a note i just got from the guy who gave me this gun... He knows the guy well that had sold this ammo, and a few others in the area that had bought some of it too.. 

_"Thats bull---- James, ii is overloaded. I had a couple buds who pulled some down and weighed the load, got it the same place you did, from Jim. Everyone they measured was at least 1.2 grains over sammi spec, others were higher.

After talking with them and reading more about it online, I read several comments where some rounds contained 2 different types of powder. Thats a BIG ------- NO NO."_


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

I'm not familiar with mag-tech. Were they brass or steels casings? And I'm not familiar with steel, if that's what they were.

Youhave not said what model of gun they were fired in, 'cept that you had to use a rod to tap them out? Did your extactor pull the rim off the case? I've never seen it happen. 

Was it a bolt gun, lever, what was it? High pressure shows many signs, and I've never noticed swolen necks from it. You will see flattened primers, cratered primers, head expansion, hard extraction, brass flowage into the bolt face. Ive' not seen much yet though.

Since your gun didn't extract, and your necks are swollen, I'd be checking out your gun first. Did you have bright rings around your cartridge casing just forward of the rim? A micrometer might be helpful, and they're pretty cheap.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

They are brass, and it was dark color rings around the necks... I'll try and get some pictures tonight...

It was a lever gun.. a Winchester Model 88... 

I'm not the only person that had this problem with these rounds.. If you search Magtech 308 sticking in gun you will find a lot of the same issue.

I didn't force it hard enough to damage the gun... It took a fair amount of force with the cleaning rod to tap them out while opening the bolt.

Once they were out, they wouldn't fit back in the gun. Other fired rounds I have will.

I'm not worried about it now.. Magtech is replacing them... I just didn't want to eat $110 dollars in ammo...


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I like this type of bullet puller. 










You can buy different size collets for different dia. bullets. Normally the bullet slide right out of the case with out spilling powder all over the place and most times the bullet isn't damaged either.


308 brass is easy to get in lots of 100 cases.


 Al


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

I use a kinetic puller...


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

alleyyooper said:


> 308 brass is easy to get in lots of 100 cases.
> 
> 
> Al


That used to be the case... not so much any more... and if you do find it, it's getting way too expensive...


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I'm no longer needing a puller since they are taking this ammo back and exchanging it.. 

Once I do start getting into reloading in a year or two, then I'll look at pullers again.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

simi-steading said:


> That used to be the case... not so much any more... and if you do find it, it's getting way too expensive...


I may drill all my 308 mil cases since its so tough to find.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

huh? drill them?

I did get lucky a few weeks ago and found 308 win at a walmart, and had my wife with me.. I grabbed 6 boxes... Well.. I got three, she got three..


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

simi-steading said:


> huh? drill them?
> 
> I did get lucky a few weeks ago and found 308 win at a walmart, and had my wife with me.. I grabbed 6 boxes... Well.. I got three, she got three..


Yeah, they are berdan primed.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

aaaahhhh.. got ya...


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

Some powders will increase in potency when they get old. There was something in the posts about the problem being with 20 year old ammo so maybe that's the problem. 

Powder makes great fertilizer. Your tomatoes will love the nitrogen. Just be sure to wet it down after you apply it. 

I loaded some 2 3/4 inch magnum 12 guage loads into AA hulls for goose hunting. I was pushing the envelope and the chamber pressure would push the dimple the firing pin made in the primer back out. Someone stole a bunch of my ammo, including the hot loads. I get a slight amount of revenge imaging their reaction when the fired "trap" loads that may have damaged their gun.


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

wannabechef said:


> I may drill all my 308 mil cases since its so tough to find.


 
Berdan primers and boxer primers aren't the same size, so far as I know. Simply drilling a central flash hole isn't the answer. If the primer doesn't fit correctly, you can have problems.

US mil cases are boxer primed. I've tossed scads of berdan primed cases over the years. 



The gun in question, the Winchester 88, doesn't have the same primary extraction camming power a bolt action does. That it required a rod to extract the cases sint too awfully surprising. I knew a guy that had Browning BLR in 308. He shot some mil 7.62 ball, they didnt extract from his gun.

Just for grins, before all this event is over (and before sending the ammo back!), have your gun headspace checked. IF it's out of spec, its quite possible it happened with the two overpressure loads fired in it (SAVE those cases!!!). Replacing the ammo would be small comfort if your gun stretched. Magtech would be responsible in my view for making it right. Send the ammo back before fidning out, and you have nothing to make a claim on.

If that sounds far fetched, I know of some factory 357 loads years ago that jugged the chamber of an N (44 size) frame Smith & Wesson. They had the box of ammo, the company knew there was a problem, as others had had guns damaged also. They paid to have a new cylinder fitted at the factory. Without the box and lot number, they wouldn't have had a claim.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Malamute said:


> Berdan primers and boxer primers aren't the same size, so far as I know. Simply drilling a central flash hole isn't the answer. If the primer doesn't fit correctly, you can have problems.


They certainly are...

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?250414-Russian-Berdan-primed-brass-IS-reloadable!


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

wannabechef said:


> They certainly are...
> 
> http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?250414-Russian-Berdan-primed-brass-IS-reloadable!


 
I read the link, I didnt see where they were using boxer primers in berdan cases or drilling out berdan cases. All the discusion I saw was reloading berdan cases with berdan primers, which are pretty much unobtainable in the US, at least through most normal supply channels.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Malamute said:


> I read the link, I didnt see where they were using boxer primers in berdan cases or drilling out berdan cases. All the discusion I saw was reloading berdan cases with berdan primers, which are pretty much unobtainable in the US, at least through most normal supply channels.


I have hundreds of berdan primed 308's


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

wannabechef said:


> I have hundreds of berdan primed 308's


If you can get berdan primers, thats great! I don't think you can use boxer primers in them though (drilling notwithstanding), the diameters are different, even if only by a small amount. I have heard of it being done, but it was commented that they were a loose fit in the pocket. A blown primer can be a serious issue in a high pressure caliber.


I've tossed thousands of them, I dont have berdan decapping tools, and berdan primers aren't easily available in the states. At the time I bought the ammo, it was cheaper to buy and throw the brass away than to reload it in any event. If berdan primers were to become available, that would change the picture, it would be practical to reload them, but I have enough boxer type cases to keep my bolt action going.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Malamute said:


> If you can get berdan primers, thats great! I don't think you can use boxer primers in them though (drilling notwithstanding), the diameters are different, even if only by a small amount. I have heard of it being done, but it was commented that they were a loose fit in the pocket. A blown primer can be a serious issue in a high pressure caliber.
> 
> 
> I've tossed thousands of them, I dont have berdan decapping tools, and berdan primers aren't easily available in the states. At the time I bought the ammo, it was cheaper to buy and throw the brass away than to reload it in any event. If berdan primers were to become available, that would change the picture, it would be practical to reload them, but I have enough boxer type cases to keep my bolt action going.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?143855-Converting-Berdan-primer-pockets-to-Boxer


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

OK, looks like its possible, tho takes a bit of work. For less work, I'd prefer to reform cases from another caliber if I couldn't get 308 brass, (most common hunting calibers on the same base size aren't that hard to reform, especially from smaller calibers like 243, 260, 7-08 etc that wouldn't require neck turning to thin the necks like a larger caliber necked down or a longer case may need) but I dont believe I'll start saving any berdan 7.62 brass unless I lose or wear out all the regular boxer primed brass I have, and can't find more.

Best of luck with your brass.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Malamute said:


> OK, looks like its possible, tho takes a bit of work. For less work, I'd prefer to reform cases from another caliber if I couldn't get 308 brass, (most common hunting calibers on the same base size aren't that hard to reform, especially from smaller calibers like 243, 260, 7-08 etc that wouldn't require neck turning to thin the necks like a larger caliber necked down or a longer case may need) but I dont believe I'll start saving any berdan 7.62 brass unless I lose or wear out all the regular boxer primed brass I have, and can't find more.
> 
> Best of luck with your brass.


My thoughts are SHTF scenario...I'll have food for my 308s.


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

Pulling the bullets and reusing the brass would be good. You won't even need to de-prime the rounds. The primers won't hurt anything -- keep them loaded in the primer pocket and use 'em. Put in a proper powder type and load, and put nuew bullets in. Ammo is expensive ...it would be worth the time and expense to reload them correctly.
Ohio Rusty ><>

The concept of slaves is most welcomed and encouraged by the system of masters. The accumulation of wealth by the thieving, corrupt Bankers and Ruling Elite at one end is at the same time, the accumulation of misery, agony of toil, slavery, ignorance, brutality, mental degradation for the common working man at the other end.​


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

Reagrding the Boxer primers in Berdan cases, I happened upon a chart of primer sizes. Boxer primers are a little bit taller than Berdan primers. If doing that conversion, be very careful about primers not seated to flush or below, especially in a self loader, which could slam fire when chambering a round on a high primer.


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