# Working without smoke



## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

A while back I had some cranky bees. I only had 2 hives at the time. One day I needed to do something really quickly in one of the hives and didn't really have time to light a smoker. So I suited up quickly and got into the hive without smoke. You'd have thought that little bee fairies had come in overnight and replaced all of my cranky bees with little angels. Next time I went out to do a full inspection I used smoke as usual and sure enough they were cranky. So, I wondered if there was a correlation. 

The whole purpose of smoke is to make the bees think that there is a forest fire so that they make preparations to move the colony if the fire gets that far. They go and start eating honey. Having a stomach full of honey helps to calm the bees and makes it less likely that they will sting. Sounds like a good thing. Then I really got to thinking about it. Basically this is a fear response. Then I am going into their hives and ripping everything apart and harassing them. I'd be cranky too!

So I started working those hives without smoke. They were wonderfully gentle and calm. 

I've had several other strains of bees since then and most of them I am able to work without smoke. The main key to this is that I don't jar the frames and I am careful not to mash any bees. That got much easier when I quit wearing leather gloves and went to wearing surgical/mechanics gloves. The bees I have now require me to leave the cover off for a minute before I can start lifting frames. It's almost like they need to get over their startlement of the roof being off of their house. Then I can do a full inspection.

This is so much nicer for me and the bees. No more breathing in lots of smoke and getting sick! I do keep a smoker and quick lighting pine shavings nearby in case I need it. I have between 50 and 100 hives right now depending on how many nucs I have made up at any given time and most days I don't have to use a smoker at all.


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## txsteele (Nov 19, 2014)

I may try this myself as lighting the smoker for a quick visit is a pain in the rear.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

We're very new to beekeeping, but had the same experience.

We used the smoker and burned burlap. I didn't know if we were doing something wrong or burning the wrong material.

But it got them all riled up.

So, we don't use it anymore. We've only worn bee gear once, too.

Funny how we bought all that stuff to be prepared and now realized we won't always need it.

Only had 2 stings with 7 people in the first month.

Although the dogs have been stung repeatedly. But then, they do try and eat the bees pretty often.

We have Russian bees in top bar hives here. Two hives at the moment.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

I do quick visits (checking frame progress in top box, refilling feeders, etc.) without smoke - usually the same visits I do without a jacket or veil.

I've tried smoking/not-smoking on more invasive visits with mixed results. It seems like the level of agitation is based on other factors than whether I used smoke or not. It will take a lot more time until I develop my own hard opinion on it though, so I will keep trying it both ways for a while.

I'm not sure you can dismiss smoking as only inducing a fear response, though. The common explanation, as I heard growing up and I'm sure most everyone did, was how it fooled the bees into thinking that fire was approaching, causing them to eat the store in preparation for a move, making them sluggish. I've never actually seen the bees diving into their stores after I smoke them. They just seem to run deeper into the hive or try to avoid me, but otherwise do what they were doing. 

I've read in more than one, more recent, source that believe that the benefit of the smoke is to cloud the local pheromone communications. The idea being that, as smoke fills the air, the alert pheromones aren't picked up as easily, and that it clouds the sting pheromones, keeping the gang-up effect down.

I _have_ seen that work first-hand. If I get a sting on my glove and leave it be, my hand becomes a bee magnet. If I smoke my hand right away (right away!), then I don't pick up another sting until the next time I do something oafish.

Even when I don't smoke the hive, if I'm going in any further than the top box or feeder, I have a smoker lit just in case.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I'm not sure you can dismiss smoking as only inducing a fear response, though. The common explanation, as I heard growing up and I'm sure most everyone did, was how it fooled the bees into thinking that fire was approaching, causing them to eat the store in preparation for a move, making them sluggish.


I thought that was what I said....except for the sluggish part.

I know a lot of folks talk about working bees without a suit or veil. I absolutely do not recommend doing that! Up north or in other parts of the country may have different conditions, but here a beehive can get 'hot' in a hurry. In the south we have Africanized genetics floating around. If your hive supercedes or swarms and a virgin mates with an Africanized drone your hive can get aggressive overnight when her brood starts hatching.

I've also had other beekeepers say that an Africanized swarm will come in and take over an established hive. I have no verification of this at all, but I don't know that it doesn't happen. I have opened enough fiery hot hives that not long before were gentle that I'm not going to say that it doesn't happen.

The point is, especially in the south, always wear protective gear. At least wear a veil.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

You are likely (surely) right about the protective gear. When I go into my hives without it, it is less intentional, and more lazy. I'll stop and lift the tops on my way in from work to see if I need to make syrup when I get to the house, or I'll eye-ball between the frames to see how many frames of the foundation on the top box that they're building, to figure out if I need to bring more boxes down. 

As quick and non-invasive as those visits seem, it's still possible to get hammered. I've read that Africanized bees can get into an existing hive as well. But, even more likely for my area, an opossum or raccoon could have given them a rough night and I didn't notice, at which point they'd be in no mood to have even the lid lifted. Either way, point taken. I should probably get a second jacket, or at least a veil, to keep in my truck.

By that same logic (value of preparedness), recommending not having a lit smoker handy could be dangerous too. If the _generally_ accepted current thinking is correct, that smoke scrambles their communications. Having one at-ready could stop the warning of an individual bee or two from becoming an all-out attack. Smoke could give you a chance to back out, and save bees who would otherwise die putting their stingers into your jacket/gloves, _through_ your jacket/gloves, or otherwise into you. 

Bee keepers have used smoke(rs) longer than they have hives with moveable-frames. 
That kind of time-tested knowledge couldn't be all wrong.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

I'm new at this, but when I just take a gander at the hive I don't smoke them and don't suit up. I'm feeding from a deep on top and when I change that out I don't smoke or suit up. I did smoke and suit up when I removed the frames to take a look see. By smoke I mean using one of those inch and half smoke plugs that only last a few minutes.


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## txsteele (Nov 19, 2014)

Having read this thread yesterday, I paid close attention when I went into my boxes today. When I smoked the entrance tonight, the girls seemed to get very active. Instead of retreating inside they flew out in an active swarm around the entrance. I let them settle down and pulled the top off with only a few bees out to inspect me. 

Having seen that, I might go forward without smoke. I will hav my smoker close by and ready to go though.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I very rarely smoke the bees. Never have worn one of those hot suits and don't know any one around the club that does. Long sleeve light colored shirt long leg jeans and a veil. 
I open the hive and mist the girls with syrup wait a minute or two and then go to work.

I do how ever keep the lit smoker handy near by incase of a cranky hive or to mask a sting.
I do smoke when pulling honey supers off as I want the bees to go down in the deeps so I don't have as many bees to brush off later.

I also use sumac berries and cedar chips I recycle out of the dogs house.

 Al


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

alleyyooper said:


> I very rarely smoke the bees. Never have worn one of those hot suits and don't know any one around the club that does. Long sleeve light colored shirt long leg jeans and a veil.
> I open the hive and mist the girls with *syrup* wait a minute or two and then go to work.
> 
> I do how ever keep the lit smoker handy near by incase of a cranky hive or to mask a sting.
> ...


 What ratio is your mix for that syrup??


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't have a smoker handy just in case. I use pine shavings bedding material that I buy by the bail and it lights very quickly. I normally go ahead and get the smoker going before I get out into one of my bee yards just so that it can be making some coals. Rarely do I need to use it. 

I find that beginners smoke their hives way too much because they are so uncertain and kind of afraid. Smoke is supposed to make the bees gentle, so the logical progression of that thought is to use a lot of smoke. This ends up irritating the bees and making the inspection more difficult.

Even when I use smoke on a hive, I use very little and normally just as I am first getting into it. I have screened bottom boards on all my hives so I send a puff underneath the hive to come up through the screen. Usually that is it. If I am working in someone else's hives that have solid bottom boards I'll give a little puff at the entrance and then 1 puff across the top of the frames.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I use 1:1 ratio. Also take note I have the smoker lit on stand by.

 Al


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## bobp (Mar 4, 2014)

The Smoke dilutes and masks the Alarm Pheromones is my understanding... I could see however how it could induce other issues as well... i'll still keep mine lit and ready either way.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Good thread... I did a split this evening, and barely used any smoke, they were gentle as lambs... Of course, theres a lot blooming right now, so they were in good mood. I could hardly believe how smooth the whole thing went. 
I listen for their pitch to change, thats how I know if they're getting agitated or not. With minimal or no smoke, they seem more relaxed. I am thinking just having the smoker in the apiary, releasing some smoke into the air is enough, giving them a blast of smoke always seems to amp up the agitation level in the hive. 
So I will definitely be using a minimal amount of smoke the next time I need to check the hives. We use pine needles and whatever grasses/dried weeds are handy. Whatever I used tonight, I think dried goldenrod stems, was very fragrant.


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## billfosburgh (May 20, 2009)

seldom do i use smoke. i have 1 hive that can get pretty mean at times. i went all last year and never lit a smoker. i did mist with sugar water sometimes. also put a little lemon grass oil in it.


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## Iddee (Sep 25, 2005)

I jaywalk quite often, too, and have never been ran over. Keep going into the hive without smoke. One day, when you least expect it, you will lift the top and have 100 plus stings before you can drop the lid and run. Come back and post how well you enjoyed it when it happens. I have been down that road and do not want to travel it again. Beekeepers have been using smoke for hundreds of years, and not without good reason.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I seldom use smoke but there is no way I would not have a lit smoker with in reach. I also would not be going into a bee hive nekid either.


 Al


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

I have never used a smoker. And really never use a suit. Mostly a vail to cover my face. Be stings are great for you. And usually I get none. Maybe one or two on a bad day. Now if major work is needed a suit up. My bee buddy did not when we had to move boxes around and was stung 30 times. It doesn't bother him at all. But that many hurts.lol


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Iddee said:


> I jaywalk quite often, too, and have never been ran over. Keep going into the hive without smoke. One day, when you least expect it, you will lift the top and have 100 plus stings before you can drop the lid and run. Come back and post how well you enjoyed it when it happens. I have been down that road and do not want to travel it again. Beekeepers have been using smoke for hundreds of years, and not without good reason.


Russian roullette comes to mind.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

alleyyooper said:


> I open the hive and mist the girls with syrup wait a minute or two and then go to work.


AH! 

May years ago I heard it could be done and so I tried it. However I did NOT spray them with sugar water and wait a minute: I just opened the hive and reached for a frame. WHAM! They were MAD, and it was a moderately gentle hive! And, I did not yet own a bee suit. I got stung 7-odd times.

I will buy a spray bottle and try this some day soon. But his time I will be wearing a bee suit while I try out the sugar water spray!


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Terri said:


> AH!
> 
> May years ago I heard it could be done and so I tried it. However I did NOT spray them with sugar water and wait a minute: I just opened the hive and reached for a frame. WHAM! They were MAD, and it was a moderately gentle hive! And, I did not yet own a bee suit. I got stung 7-odd times.
> 
> I will buy a spray bottle and try this some day soon. But his time I will be wearing a bee suit while I try out the sugar water spray!


That is generally what I do. I spray with sugar water and they calm right down. It keeps them from flying for a little bit. Works great.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Well, perhaps I did not spray them with ENOUGH sugar water because those were some angry bees! They were as good as gold until I moved a frame, and then you could just hear the buzzing change in volume and pitch. 

Most of the bees stayed in the hive but those that left the hive were not in a good mood. Fortunately I was wearing a bee suit and gloves. 

I was very hot in that suit so I did not watch them for long. I never did have much heat tolerance. I did just the bare minimum and closed things up. I didn't even move the bees around with my finger to check for brood: the bees were covering the frames they had drawn in a solid sheet.


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

Sorry but spraying water or sugar syrup is surely setting your bees back a heck of a lot more than a puff of smoke- they have to waste energy cleaning up all the mess off their wings and hive. Personally I think a really bad idea.

A couple newbee beekeepers I've know have done this as well because they think they figure they are being ethical or "green" or whatever it is. I don't personally know anyone that is serious about raising bees that mists them with anything. Smoke is easy, cheap, completely effective, and non invasive, and has been used for thousands of years- I'm assuming it's a best bet!

I also find most newbee beekeepers quit keeping bees after 1-2 seasons.
And I'm really excited about getting my own flow hive because it seems this year they all have one of these swarm-creating, winter killing devices! I think I could tweak a flow hive to work for me!


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## Bigdemps (Mar 10, 2015)

We're running 2 top bar and 3 Langstroth hives in our apiary and they are gentle, Buckfast breed bees. They are so easy going that we work them in short pants, T-shirts and veils. We had been doing this with no stings until one day we decided, "Hey, we're just going to do a quick check of the hive so let's not mess with the smoker this time." WRONG! Those gentle little girls lit me up when I pulled the first bar! I had six stings on one finger before I could back out of the hive. I scraped the stingers off and backed away as my wife closed the hive back up and we moved away. Now there is no way I would dream of opening a hive without a smoker. 

When using the smoker, use it very sparingly... the idea is to mask pheromone communications and if you put too much, you can drive them to a panic. Just a gentle puff outside the entrance (make sure your smoker is blowing cool smoke, not fire), wait a minute, then lift a top bar at the back of the hive and put one good puff of smoke in there. After a minute, or so, you can work them without worry. One other thing, I will ALWAYS wear a veil since bee stings to the face are no fun at all and they usually swell like crazy.

For me, the bee sting is more of an annoyance than a pain, but the itching that follows for the next day or two is what drives me crazy!


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