# Got a shotgun? Good info to know!



## ghmerrill (Feb 22, 2011)

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/2011/05/23/front-sights-monday-blog-got-slugs/


Shows how to get a large caliber effect from an ordinary 12 ga shot shell.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

That is too cool,just forwarded that out to friends


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Don't want to try that with a full choke.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

That is a *REALLY STUPID *thing to do.

It's just begging for an explosion to occur right next to your face


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## carasel (Dec 31, 2009)

Bearfoot,
Is the possibility of an explosion. Because your basically making the shell like a muzzle loader load. 
When the powder goes off . The wadding may block the barrel and boom?
Just curious about stuff like this.
thanks!


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## Guest (Jun 16, 2011)

The projectile in a cut shell is a bigger diameter than the wad full of shot by the factor of twice the thickness of the shell wall. Maybe the forceing cone squishes it down but I wouldn't try it. It seems the chamber pressure would get really high and you risk a barrell rupture. Also note he was using a 1 1/8 oz low power load. Definantly worse with a hunting or magnum power load.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

A 12 gauge has a bore diameter of about 0.729". The outside diameter of a shotshell hull, at least the one sitting here, is 0.786" See any problems?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> The wadding may block the barrel and boom?


That, and it can increase the pressures to extremely dangerous levels.

Internal ballistics is a SCIENCE and only *fools *experiment with a gun up to their face


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## Durandal (Aug 19, 2007)

I'd like to add that you are in no way turning your shotgun into a high power rifle.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

This person has a blog with the offer of "15 free Gun Training Reports???" No Thank You - I think that I will pass on that offer!

Then they posted that potentially dangerous experiment on video? With a dial up ISP @ 28.8 Kbps, I went away and did some work outside for over an hour, just to download part of it.

"Look Maw, No Hands - and I also got me a face full of ruptured shotgun barrel pieces!!"
Or - "Hey Dude, Watch This..." Since he is located in the North end of the San Francisco Bay Area (Windsor, California).

I hope that he has his camera going, when trying another one of his other amazing ballistics experiments.

If needed I will stick to firing factory manufactured slug ammunition, in one of my Remington 870 shotguns with the correct factory slug barrel ... If I feel the need to shoot at a target out at 50+ yards or beyond, I will use at least a .30 caliber rifle.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Interesting,thanks. I was asked,what about a pump,I see there are reservations,better pass.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Here's what happens when pressures are too high
Imagine it happening right next to your face:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1202203


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## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Here's what happens when pressures are too high
> Imagine it happening right next to your face:
> 
> http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1202203


I wonder if that was a modern round used in that old gun...

With the advent of slugs, what is the point of using this "pre-slug" method nowadays?


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## poorboy (Apr 15, 2006)

They were used in depression days to take deer or large animals at close range...People didn't have an abundance of ammo as today..Even in the 1950's and earlie 60's we often bought our shotshells 4 or 5 at a time. 10 cents each at the local general store. 
That was a modern shell in that video. I would use this method if i didn't have slugs or couldn't afford them. However i would just use field or light loads , no turkey loads for me..


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

I have in the past opened the petals in the end of a shotgun shell, dumped out the shot and dropped in a big 69 caliber punkin' ball (musket ball). Close the petals ... you have a shotgun slug. Much better and safer than cutting the shell casing.
Ohio Rusty ><>


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## poorboy (Apr 15, 2006)

Ohio Rusty said:


> I have in the past opened the petals in the end of a shotgun shell, dumped out the shot and dropped in a big 69 caliber punkin' ball (musket ball). Close the petals ... you have a shotgun slug. Much better and safer than cutting the shell casing.
> Ohio Rusty ><>


This a survival type make do..Modern slugs are better, the punkin ball would be better.. How many have a supply of .69 cal balls laying around,, I'm willing to bet not 1% of firearms owners in the country..Sure you can buy 'em,,but you can buy slugs also...Would i recommend the cut-shell if anything else was on hand or available..NO...Not available, then yes I would use it in survival mode..:bored:


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

Interesting note on that old shotgun pic. Notice all the rust where the barrels were soldered together. The fluxes used to make the solder stick were an acid. That flux acid appears to have caused rust under the solder. That is one of the issues that weaken old, old guns. Another issue is user abuse of course .............
That was a pretty shotgun .. too bad for it's luck .....
Ohio Rusty ><>


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

Many years ago my brother made slugs by dripping drips of super glue over the shot. When it hardened, it was one solid mass. Probably the wad stuck to the solid shot column. We never found one ...
Ohio Rusty ><>


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

First the image of the exploded barrel. With modern arms it doesn't happen. See myth busters. They tried.

Two Why not just buy a lee slug mold. Cheap and easy to use.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

A couple of things from the peanut gallery. 

I wouldn't worry too much if I had to do this if I had a modern weapon with a modified or cylinder choked barrel. As the case move down the barrel the forcing cone would squeeze it down, forcing some of the shot out the front of the case. I'm willing to bet if you looked at the target you'd see a big hole surrounded by a bunch of smaller birdshot sized holes.

The whole point of showing this isn't to suggest you stop buying slugs and use cut shells. Its to give you info which you could use in an extreme situation. Its no different than showing how you can pee in a hole, cover the hole with plastic and get drinkable water from it. Are you going to do it on a daily basis or is it something you want to know about?


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

All I can say is thank you for the education all around.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> First the image of the exploded barrel. *With modern arms it doesn't happen*. See myth busters. They tried


Evidently you didn't click the link I posted which shows MODERN guns blown up also

Here's another:

http://www.rugerhunting.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2469


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Evidently you didn't click the link I posted which shows MODERN guns blown up also
> 
> Here's another:
> 
> http://www.rugerhunting.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2469


http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/11/episode_43_seasickness_cures_f.html

The Tests

Test 1 (gel hand): Buster's gel finger was stuck inside the shotgun barrel. The entire hand was blown apart with no damage to the shotgun.

Test 2 (wax hand): They used a stronger ballistic hand made of wax to plug the barrel. The wax hand was blown apart but the shotgun barrel was ballooned slightly.

At this point they declared the myth busted and moved on to trying to replicate the myth. They wanted to get a 'banana peel' result by firing the shotgun.

Test 3 (dirt): Tory stuffed the barrel of a shotgun with dirt. The end of the barrel peeled back slightly, but the shooter was fine.

Test 4 (Steel spike): They welded a steel spike into the barrel. The gun shot the spike out with only minor damage to the end of the barrel.

Test 5 (squib load): A squib load is a bullet that doesn't have enough gunpowder to exit the barrel. Jamie hammered a bullet into the end of the barrel. The end of the barrel bulged, but it didn't banana peel.

Not only was this myth busted, but MythBusters failed at even replicating the result of this myth.
Here is a link to a youtube.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO_7BCUnXjE[/ame]

Your showing results from over charging the barrel with powder. That isn't the same thing as a bore obstruction.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Your showing results from over charging the barrel with powder. That isn't the same thing as a bore obstruction


That doesn't change the fact that many *modern guns *have blown from bore obstructions as well as other causes.

Cutting a shell is adding to the *projectile weight*, which is the same thing as "over charging", as well as making it oversized for the barrel



> Not only was this myth busted, but MythBusters failed at even replicating the result of this myth.


The fact it didn't happen those few times doesn't mean it can't
Do some reading on* internal ballistics* and *chamber pressure*
If you think it's safe, feel free to do it all you like.
I'd rather not bet my life based on a cable TV show


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That doesn't change the fact that many *modern guns *have blown from bore obstructions as well as other causes.
> 
> Cutting a shell is adding to the *projectile weight*, which is the same thing as "over charging", as well as making it oversized for the barrel
> 
> ...


I think it'd be a lot safer to stock the proper ammunition for your guns and whatever you might use them for.
This whole dumn thing looks to me like taking a dangerous short cut.
It's not going to happen at my house.
If we don't have slugs for the Shotgun, we'll pick up a rifle.
Simple as that.........at my house.

OTOH........Suit yourself, with your guns & your hands.
Have Fun!


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## Brokeneck (Mar 1, 2011)

Here's a novel idea......Buy the proper ammunition to use in your gun! No need to give the PTB any more statistics to use to take away rights! Plus as an added bonus slugs are way cheaper than facial reconstructive surgery.
Brokeneck


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## Energy Rebel (Jan 22, 2011)

My question is, "Is cutting the shell actually blocking the chamber during exit?"
This would increase chamber pressure.
Or is the plastic casing expanding *after* it exits due to resistance?
A slo-mo footage should clear that up for those that want to know the danger - or lack thereof.


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## FreightTrain (Nov 5, 2005)

why not just use "00" buck? :shrug:


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## Energy Rebel (Jan 22, 2011)

I think the point is there is a day coming when you wont be able to just go and buy what you can today.
We'd better learn how to make our own ammo, powder and firearms, repair them, etc.
Better learn how to make your own electricity too, while you're at it.
Fortunately a machinist, chemist and electrician resides in this house...........


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

To see some good pix of guns blown/barrels peeled...go to gunzone.com....good pix/story of what happens when unloading a .40 with finger on trigger.My fav is the Tikka rifle with barrel peeled all the way back---REMOVE laser sightin tool before loading with ammo


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> My question is, "Is cutting the shell actually blocking the chamber during exit?"


Yes it is because it's larger than the bore diameter



> Or is the plastic casing expanding after it exits due to resistance?


It's already larger than the barrel, and was never intended to travel down the barrel.

It actually expands *at the moment *of firing due to pressure and inertia, so it's larger at that instant than before it was fired

It's called "obturation"


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## NJ Rich (Dec 14, 2005)

Never ever do this. You will probably get hurt or killed. And you could hurt or kill an inocent by-stander. 

I question why any person would want to do this and chance getting killed. :smack

"Stupid is as stupid does".


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

With the availability of high power sabbot slugs and 1550 steel shot shells, there is really no need to do what was suggested......

Not a wise choice to exsperiment with fire arms...........many people have been killed and lost eyes,hands, arms etc.

A high power sabbot slug will perform better, be more accurate and 100 times safer.......

1550 feet per second steel shot loads will also do better, with slightly less range than the slug.


1550 is alot faster than a .22 round...more than enuff for a shot gun.


When buying and using high power ammo in any weapon, always do your home work...some weapons will not fire slugs due to the barrel and some weapons are not intended for high power rounds.....always research and check on anything of this nature before actually shooting a new round.

A quick google search or a call to the local gunsmith could save yours or a bystanders life.

Keep in mind... even a perfectly new and well made weapon can fail shooting normal ammo.......I saw it happen last trip to the range with a low quality cheap semi auto pistol.....the barrel split..lucky he just got a little hot brass imbedded in the skin and did not lose a finger or hand.

Stick with quality name brand weapons and the chance of this goes way down.....but still can happen.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

stanb999 said:


> Your showing results from over charging the barrel with powder. That isn't the same thing as a bore obstruction.


If you want to see what an obstruction can do to a barrel, take a look at this:


http://mrcompletely.blogspot.com/2007/03/bore-sighter-left-in-barrel-ouch.html

The guy had bore sighted his rifle, and forgot to take the bore sighter out. I have a personal friend that had the exact same thing happen. That one I saw myself. 

Whether Mythbusters was able to recreate it or not, it CAN happen.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

shawnlee said:


> With the availability of high power sabbot slugs and 1550 steel shot shells, there is really no need to do what was suggested......
> 
> Not a wise choice to exsperiment with fire arms...........many people have been killed and lost eyes,hands, arms etc.
> 
> ...


Yes but. . .what if you don't have those nor access to them? Example you were flying into a place to do a little quail or dove hunting and the plane crashes in an area known for grizzly bears. Would you rather be sitting around the crash site waiting for rescue with a couple of #8 dove rounds in your shotgun or might you be willing to cut a shell or two ? 

As I pointed out I don't think anyone is suggesting you stop using slugs and start using cut shells. The point here is KNOWLEDGE which could be used if needed.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

watcher said:


> Yes but. . .what if you don't have those nor access to them? Example you were flying into a place to do a little quail or dove hunting and the plane crashes in an area known for grizzly bears. Would you rather be sitting around the crash site waiting for rescue with a couple of #8 dove rounds in your shotgun or might you be willing to cut a shell or two ?
> 
> As I pointed out I don't think anyone is suggesting you stop using slugs and start using cut shells. The point here is KNOWLEDGE which could be used if needed.


I understand what you are saying and agree with it..........on the other hand I am almost positive a near point blank bird shot blast to a bears face will put a end to the threat.......


Eaten by a bear VS using a cut shell.....I would probably give the cut shell a try


Let this be a lesson to always carry a few "unique" rounds with you........some 1550 fps steel shot and a few slugs...they take up little room and could be a life saver.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Yes but. . .what if you don't have those nor access to them? Example you were flying into a place to do a little quail or dove hunting and the plane crashes in an area known for grizzly bears. Would you rather be sitting around the crash site waiting for rescue with a couple of #8 dove rounds in your shotgun or might you be willing to cut a shell or two ?


You'll taste the same to the Grizzly no matter which one you use to *irritate* him. because it's STILL not a slug.

If you're flying over an area KNOWN to have big bears, you should be* prepared* by having the right loads anyway


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

I'm not sure where this mythical land of fly-in camps for quail and dove hunting is located, but when we were flying out to caribou camp in Alaska, the pilot showed us the shotgun wired under a seat, the slugs, buckshot, and ptarmigan shot, the 22 rifle and shells, and the emergency locator beacon. He said if he was killed in the crash, we needed to know all of it. 

My grandpa in Arkansas used to tell me that slugs were illegal way back then, or maybe it was deer hunting was illegal since there weren't many. He said the warden would check your shells for cut shells, and also for candle wax dripped onto the shot so it stayed together. Some time in the 70s factories started dripping a bit of wax on crimps to give the appearance of sealing them, but deer hunting was legal by then anyway.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Ok let me ask ya'll this. If you knew nothing about it before and someone posted a video of how to use a solar still to produce drinkable water would you be posting things like:

Well that's stupid, you should just carry enough clean water with you?

Why not buy a canteen?

Plastic and a hole? You should use a water filter because that's what its made for.


Or would you be posting things like:

That's something which is good to know.

Man, that could save your life.

I'd hate to have to do that but it'd be better than dieing of thirst.


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## NJ Rich (Dec 14, 2005)

There are other and safer ways to hold the bird shot together. Wax and melted sap are just two.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

watcher said:


> Ok let me ask ya'll this. If you knew nothing about it before and someone posted a video of how to use a solar still to produce drinkable water would you be posting things like:


If the solar still had an operating pressure of 11-12,000 psi like a shotgun does, I would be extremely wary of using it in ways for which it was not designed.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Ok let me ask ya'll this. If you knew nothing about it before and someone posted a video of how to use a solar still to produce drinkable water would you be posting things like:



A solar still isn't likely to kill anyone

A cut shell is

They aren't comparable


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> A solar still isn't likely to kill anyone
> 
> A cut shell is
> 
> They aren't comparable


They both can keep you alive and they aren't likely to ever be used. But I could change the anology if you wish.

How about if someone posted a video on how to make a Swiss seat and how to use it to repel. Tied or used incorrectly it could kill you.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> They both can keep you alive and they aren't likely to ever be used. But I could change the anology if you wish.
> 
> How about if someone posted a video on how to make a Swiss seat and how to use it to repel. Tied or* used incorrectly it could kill you*.


A cut shell STARTS as being *incorrect*usage from the onset.
There's no point in trying to justify it any further


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> A cut shell STARTS as being *incorrect*usage from the onset.
> There's no point in trying to justify it any further


I'll say the folowing and move on. 


Just as I would never try to use a shotgun as a gernade launcher or make a shotgun out of plumbing fittings as long as I have the proper equipment I'd never use cut shells. But I'm glad to have the knowledge and *would* do/use it if the need arose.


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

For information: my family has an old Greener & Greener muzzle-loading double-barrel shotgun. Too old, and the barrel is too corroded, to use now - it's on permanent loan to a local museum. However, my father told me that he'd seen it regularly and reliably bring down hares at over a hundred yards, when his uncle used it. They made-up the loads in advance, with the shot pre-measured and packaged in little muslin stockings or bags. The basic theory was not having to measure loose shot to load into the firearm in the field. However, that bag held together, and held the shot together, fairly well once the firearm was ... uhhm... fired. If you'd patterned it at fifty yards you'd have got a pattern smaller than a tennis ball. That was about where the muslin had come apart, and the shot started acting like ordinary shotguns would have it doing straight out of the muzzle.

Oh, yes - they kept one barrel incompletely loaded, then either loaded it with the bag for a long shot, or loaded it by tipping the shot out of the bag for a shorter shot.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Here's what happens when pressures are too high
> Imagine it happening right next to your face:
> 
> http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1202203


That right there is the reason when we inherited my great grandfathers 1890s era 12 gauge shotgun when my grandfather passed on my father sent it to Remington for a full "physical" and to order period spec ammunition for it to safely be usable if required.

Sad part was when we were away for a weekend our house was broken into and our open racked weapons stolen, the Remington was on its rack in the den went with them.

A week later we got a call all our guns had been found because the thief fired that 1890s shotgun with a 2 1/2 inch magnum shell because he hadn't stolen the period ammo for it and blew part of his face and shoulder away.

It was sad to lose the 80 year old shotgun but nice to get our other open racked rifles and shotguns back. Best part is that I still own the six that were recovered and they are almost 40 years older now than they were then


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

At least Karma got the theif


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

It seems if you had no slugs but had an 18.00 mould,you could cast your own slugs,dump out shot,insert slug,recrimp and viola....


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Or you could pry open the crimp and dump in a little 5 minute epoxy to glue your shot into a slug. Dump out some shot to make up for the added glue weight. At least that would send something down the barrel that is the correct size to go down the barrel.

Or buy some slugs now. 

Or get a little closer and shoot it with shot from very close range.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Ed Norman said:


> Or you could pry open the crimp and dump in a little 5 minute epoxy to glue your shot into a slug. Dump out some shot to make up for the added glue weight. At least that would send something down the barrel that is the correct size to go down the barrel
> .


IMO, that would be more dangerous than a cut shell. The epoxy/shot mixture would not be compressible. When it hit the forcing cone something would have to give and give in a hurry. A slug is made of soft lead, or sabotted and the shot in a cut shell would be able to expand.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

This just seems sort of risky/unnecessary and I have heard of some unsavory rumors about Frontsight and Ignatius Piazza.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

watcher said:


> IMO, that would be more dangerous than a cut shell. The epoxy/shot mixture would not be compressible. When it hit the forcing cone something would have to give and give in a hurry. A slug is made of soft lead, or sabotted and the shot in a cut shell would be able to expand.


You want me to send you a box of slugs? I have plenty.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Ed Norman said:


> You want me to send you a box of slugs? I have plenty.


Sure, I never turn down ammo, why not send me a case?

Read my posts. As I have pointed out SEVERAL times, if the correct ammo were available I'd use it but if the situation was such I needed to I would be very happy to have the knowledge of this option in my bag of tricks. Just as I'd rather have a water filter if I were lost and not have to rely on a solar still to make water.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Have to agree with Watcher...always good to have multiple field expedeit(sp) methods of doing things.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted by watcher
> IMO, that would be more dangerous than a cut shell. *The epoxy/shot mixture would not be compressible*. When it hit the forcing cone something would have to give and give in a hurry. A slug is made of soft lead, or sabotted and the shot in a cut shell would be able to expand.



Ii wouldn't need to be "compressible" since it's already *smaller* than the bore diameter

The only part that is slightly larger is the flared end of the wad that acts as a gas seal as it travels down the barrel

Nothing really gets "compressed" more than one or two thousandths in the forcing cone.
It's just a transition from chamber diameter to bore diameter

With the epoxy method, you're not trying to force the *case* itself down the barrel as with a cut shell.

It's all contained *in the wad*, which in basically the same diameter as the bore anyway


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

OD of shotshell: 0.784"
OD of most of shot column: 0.707"
OD of flare at base of column: 0.720"
ID of 12 ga barrel: 0.729"
ID of full choke: 0.694"


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## kabic (May 12, 2009)

zant said:


> Have to agree with Watcher...always good to have multiple field expedeit(sp) methods of doing things.


:thumb:


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## FarmerGreen (Dec 11, 2007)

Does anyone know of a time where a cut case shell has damaged a barrel? I'm not gonna try it with any of my guns, but apparently folks have been doing this for 80 years. I'm not asking about any other barrel obstruction, only the method shown in the video.


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## foxfiredidit (Apr 15, 2003)

I tried this many years ago. I got lucky and nothing happened at the time. However, I went to use that shotgun later on to shoot some doves. It was a double barrel shotgun. Before handing the gun to me, my 9 year old son opened the gun to check it, and in doing that he looked down the barrels. What he found was the same barrel I had shot a cut shell in was stopped up. I got a ramrod and after much pushing and shoving and jiggling it back and forth, I found the wadding and a portion of the shell casing stuck in the barrel about 5 or 6 inches from the muzzle. I don't think I would have checked the barrels before I shot it again since there was no apparent problem when I shot it before. The shell that I cut was a 7 1/2 low brass bird shot. 

So if you try this, and you survive, be sure to check your barrel before you shoot it again. The barrel I tried it in was a 28 inch modified choke. I am really glad though that my son had taken to heart the lessons he learned very early in his safety lessons.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Hmm. So the neat survival trick not only didn't launch out a deadly slug as advertised, but it also rendered the firearm useless and dangerous until a stout ramrod could be located. Good job your son did.


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