# Assumed Accuracy, Sheesh !



## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Spent the weekend at deer camp with a few friends, a couple of which are city boys that I hunt with. Always amazes me that they will go to all of the time and trouble to buy licenses, travel to destinations, pay for hunting trips, buy weapons, buy gear, etc. but won't put in the time and effort to become familiar with their weapons, get them sighted in and know where they hit at different yardages.

Typical deal, one dude hunts with crossbow. Said he can only shoot 20 yards in town but he is good to go as he has it sighted in and according to the book you sight in top pin at 20 yards, then next two pins are for 30 & 40 yards. 

As suspected, that was off base. We set a target at a measured 20 yards and quickly found he was 3-4" left, and got that fixed. Then via moving around at some measured distances found out that his second pin was good at 25 yards and third pin good at 30 yards. I made him up a sticker to put on the crossbow illustrating that information and hope it helps.

After discussion we come to find out that he didn't even know how much his practice tips weigh, nor does he know how much his broadheads weigh, so our sight in efforts could be wasted effort? See the same stuff with firearms. They sight in with brand X ammo, then can't find anymore in the store and hunt with brand Y.

I'm trying to be patient and train these guys, but it sure gets frustrating. Also makes me suspect that the majority of dudes hitting the woods have little if any idea what their weapons are doing. This is the one aspect of deer hunting that is pretty controllable, so really not much excuse for hitting the woods with an inaccurate weapon.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Met people like that spent more money and time for beer for a hunting trip than they did on ammo and practice. 

 Al


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Please stop calling it a "weapon". A weapon is something used against people. I do not own any weapons but have a number of firearms, none of which have ever been used to harm anyone.
I know it sounds kind of picky, but that word just fits into the gun grabbers playbook. Here in the Great Socialist State Of New York a mis spoken word can open up a whole can of worms, as in "I'm training my children to use weapons" as opposed to "I'm training my children to use firearms". a whole world of difference.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Weapon - _A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage_

Well, since they haven't yet offered Phazers like used in Star Trek to the general public, myself and many others are stuck using archery gear and firearms to harvest game. Unfortunately, these tools do inflict bodily harm and physical damage to the critters they are used on, so I felt my choice of words was pretty accurate.

I get where you are coming from, but also feel like we gun owners should be proud of and stand up for our rights, rather than let the anti's and do-gooders run the show and dictate our choice of words. I'm a little more on Ted Nugents side of the gun rights issues rather than trying to be politically correct. 

None the less ... apologize if offended.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

uniform on , its a weapon

uniform off , it's a gun , firearm , pistol , rifle , shotgun 

I didn't serve in the army so I never got started on the weapon vocabulary , and I am right there with you on the it shouldn't matter what we call it or what we keep it for man or animal but as an instructor when we work with youth we have to be very careful what we call things , someone may be waiting for any ammo you give them to harass or shut down your program , and when your teaching more than a hundred youth a season marksmanship and safe handling those a hearts and minds and future votes lost if your program is lost.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

No offence at all.
Another term I hate is "harvest", as in "Bill harvested a deer".
Nope, Bill killed a deer. We are engaged in a blood sport. I harvest beans and corn but I kill deer. I never went up to the garden with a basket and came back covered in blood. Well, at least not many times.
I do not like using the term "harvest" in hunter training. It diminishes the value of the animal's life.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Let me see it I get this.

Weapon = bad, sounds like people killing device.
Firearm = good, sounds like sporting goods, like a golf club or something similar?

Kill = good, truthful, lets them know their is blood and death involved.
Harvest = bad, sounds like you picked a tomato, glossing over the truth.


Whatever floats your boat ..... :huh:


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Guys,
Give him a break being on the right coast with all the -------s he's fighting the good fight against non thinkers whose college professors told them guns are icky, dangerous and not to be trusted . For those of us in the civilized portion of the country have it relatively easy compared but pay attention that's the way they (-------s want things to go and they are sure that if they are patient and keep trying over the next 100 years they will fix us ( yes as in geld) .
SO yes its stupid and silly but that's what -------s do. SO keep up the good fight even if the rest of us would not put up with that much political correctness. 
Dutch


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

That's just sad automatic political correctness, I guess I need to decide if I will allow my first amendment rights to fall to political correctness, or quit this site.
Dutch


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I've always tried to be as politically incorrect as possible. Never much cared for the thought police, even though at times (weapon/firearm, kill/harvest) we do get our feet wet. It's a fine line.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Dutch 106 said:


> That's just sad automatic political correctness, I guess I need to decide if I will allow my first amendment rights to fall to political correctness, or quit this site.
> Dutch


You have no "First Amendment right" on a privately owned website.
You agreed to abide by the rules here which state "no profanity".


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## joejeep92 (Oct 11, 2010)

I run into guys like that with rifles too. One guy in the ammo aisle of Cabela's was reading the ammo boxes and making his decision based on which one showed the furthest "zero drop". He only has a fifty yard range so he wants to make sure it will stay flat after that. The Cabela's employee didn't know much better. Also see guys that sighted in the rifle x number of years ago and it should still be fine, I'm way to OCD for that, I pretty much shoot my main rifles every week.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Kind of sad ain't it? These guys are probably responsible for the vast majority of wounded game.
I have to agree that the more I shoot, the better I shoot.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

I've got several rifles, but when things get serious, I always grab my old Featherweight.

There is a lot to be said for familiarity.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Are we talking about a model 37? If so, I agree. It is my very familiar deer getting, grouse shooting, skeet powdering, leap out the window cuz the poop just hit the fan firearm of choice. A bottom feeding, slam firing, extension of my body. It has been a trusted companion for over 45 years.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Well Saturday was the opening of gun season around here. Took the great nephew up to the swamps where we could hunt with rifles. Day started out beautiful and went to crap in the early afternoon. We saw a couple of doe (we both have permits) but not a good shot opportunity. 
Yesterday we hunted behind the house. The weather had gone cold with snow and wind. Put my nephew in my place out back. He shared it with one of my nextdoor neighbors. each facing in opposite directions. The spot is kind of a crossroads and deer will come from either side. It's in open woods and surrounded by thickets that bleed out into hedge rows between the fields.
We've been having trouble with my nephews 870. It's a smooth bore and we have run every type of slug through it we could find and can not find anything it shoots accurately. Because of this I gave him my Mossberg 500. Ported rifled barrel with a quik point sight. With Lightfield slugs it is dead nuts at 50 yds.
Because I was going to slowly push through the thickets to move something for them I actually thought of not taking a gun. My model 37 that I love and have been shooting for 45 years has rifle sights and my eyes are not as good as the used to be. Even with glasses. I have no desire to wound a deer with a misplaced shot but I grabbed it anyways and filled it with it's favorite Federal foster slugs. I slowly moved in a zig zag back and forth through the thickets and up through one hedgerow and down another. I was making my third zig (or zag) through an old overgrown apple orchard when I kicked out a young spike buck. He was at about 25 yds moving broadside right to left. he was close but moving and I saw that his left leg was dangling.I dropped him with a shoulder shot in a heartbeat. Can't remember knocking off the safety or aiming and the report was barely heard. Man, I love that gun.
The sad thing was that with the dangling leg from a bad shot he also had an old bullet wound in the right hip, a would in the rear right hock, and two placed where he lost fur from skimming bullets. This poor creature looked like he came through a shooting gallery full of blind men. I was very glad I was able to put him out of his misery. It was a mercy killing. 
This only increases my resolve to push hunters to practice, practice, practice. There is no excuse for what happened to this deer.
This will be a featured story in my hunter training classes rom now on.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> This poor creature looked like he came through a shooting gallery full of blind men.


More likely just one shooter using buckshot from too far away


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Nope. Can't use Buckshot in NY. The front left leg wound was very fresh, as in it just happened. Did hear a shot close by earlier. Back right leg was very old. Bullet wound on lower right hip was not as old. Places with hair removed by bullets were on both sides of the body. He was a mess.


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## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

A guy that was in our hunting party, had the bad habit of not sighting in his rifle. Wounded deer in stead of killing them. Although a nice and generous guy, he angered his fellow hunters by wasting game and their time chasing after wounded deer.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Bad shots happen but as Sportsmen we have the responsibility to be proficient with our firearm. We also have to pass up on bad shooting situations.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

I've seed two wounded deer since our firearms season opened on 11/12.
Maybe they'll make it, maybe not? Both looked like shoulder area injuries, limping.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I can not tolerate the guys who "spray and pray". My hunting buddy shares the same belief and we constantly encourage each other to target practice throughout the year. Back when my eyes worked right we would shoot until each of us could put three deer slugs into a pack of cigarettes at 50 yds. with our beautiful smoothbores. I had rifle sights and Dave had a bead up front and a peep sight in back. He was extremely deadly with that combination.
Now we have rifled barrels and quik points or low powered scopes. 
I would buy Federal hydra shok slugs on sale with a coupon for a rebate. They ended up costing me $.99 a box. Now I shoot Light Fields at $3.00 each.

Oh for the good old days.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I can put 3 slugs in a pack of smokes at 50 but if I want the 4th in it I would have to aim low or wait for the barrel to cool down 

my smooth bore will keeps shots touching but each one is almost 3/4 of an inch higher than the last not a bog deal as I don't normally shoot more than 2 at a deer 

been using Winchester super X rifled slugs 2 3/4 inch 1 ounce 12 ga for about 23 years from the same gun it got a scope 10 years ago when I got glasses.

I miss clearance slugs , go to the store the week after season ended and buy enough for a few years at 99 cents a box 

at least they sell them in 15 packs now 


and alwasy check your zero , my cousin has had the same gun for 10+ years and always checked but never moved the scope at all this was the first time he didn't fire a few to check zero on it before opening day , when he took a shot and couldn't believe he missed he put up a cardboard target at lunch and realized he was 6 inches right at 50 yards some how 

I went to shoot a squirrel with the 22 I shot and had perfectly zeroed oct 16th , I shot rifleman that day at 25meters when I pulled up on the squirrel the cross hairs were at a 45 degree angle , something had let loose inside the scope in a months time sitting in the cabinet or riding from the range to the house to deer camp 

when deer camp comes once a year have a second gun ready and zero checked as a backup just in case


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## tamarackreg (Mar 13, 2006)

A related pet peeve is using the catalog ballistics chart to figure bullet drop at long range but never shooting at that distance to verify.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

just a bad case of book smart and field stupid. It's a common situation today.


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## termite76 (Apr 3, 2015)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> uniform on , its a weapon
> 
> uniform off , it's a gun , firearm , pistol , rifle , shotgun
> 
> I didn't serve in the army so I never got started on the weapon vocabulary , and I am right there with you on the it shouldn't matter what we call it or what we keep it for man or animal but as an instructor when we work with youth we have to be very careful what we call things , someone may be waiting for any ammo you give them to harass or shut down your program , and when your teaching more than a hundred youth a season marksmanship and safe handling those a hearts and minds and future votes lost if your program is lost.


 This is my rifle, this is my gun...This ones for fighting...This ones for fun..
In my time, rifle..or sidearm (pistol)
"Weapons training " included knife and bayonet
Semantics...


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

tamarackreg said:


> A related pet peeve is using the catalog ballistics chart to figure bullet drop at long range but never shooting at that distance to verify.


I agree and most people I know don't like 24 and 26 inch barrels which is what most ammo manufacturers test velocities on. Most guys I know are running 20 and 22 inch barrels which isn't a huge difference in muzzle velocity but at 6-700 yards it will play a role in it.


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

I use a Remington 870 with a rifled barrel and Hornady SST 300 grain slugs.. When I purchase the slugs, I usually purchase 5 to 10 packs at a time and make sure I get all the same lot number codes. Slap a Nikon Slug Hunter scope onto a cantilevered scope mount and its more accurate than my own muscle control...

That darn Hornady round is like a ballistic missile inside its tube.. I fire 100 yard rounds at a target with the gun on a sandbag and it groups within 3/4 of an inch at the center of the hole... Basically just chews the paper away in the center. 

On the subject of using the same ammo, it doesn't always seem to apply...
I also use a Ruger 10-22 with a stainless barrel for rabbits.. We have a real problem around here with them.. hundreds of rabbits taking out my garden and girdling my fruit trees. 
The Ruger doesn't seem to care what ammo I put in it.. CCI or the Winchester's.. it will blow a rabbits head off at 125 yards no problems.. About 1 out of every 10 to 15 rounds will be a "flyer" and end up missing by 5 to 7 inches, but the rest are nail drivers. That 10-22 is my favorite gun..


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Some guns are pretty finicky about what you run through them. Others not. My Savage MKII like 36gr Winchester hollow points. Disgustingly accurate. Everything else is all over the place.
My daughter's .22 target rifle like federals. My son in law sets up those little cheap plastic cowboy and indian toys, The ones that come in a bag, And knocks them down at 100yds. It's a nice rifle and Tom is a ---- good shot.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> I agree and most people I know don't like 24 and 26 inch barrels which is what most ammo manufacturers test velocities on. Most guys I know are running 20 and 22 inch barrels which isn't a huge difference in muzzle velocity but *at 6-700 yards *it will play a role in it.


Over 95% of game is taken at 200 yards or less so that hardly matters.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Heck, I hunt thick cover. 30-50 ft. is more like it.


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

Buddy was a marine in Nam. Could shoot lights out at targets, put him in the woods hunting deer and he was terrible, we spent a lot of time tracking wounded deer. I never could figure out what it was.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

ksfarmer said:


> Buddy was a marine in Nam. Could shoot lights out at targets, put him in the woods hunting deer and he was terrible, we spent a lot of time tracking wounded deer. I never could figure out what it was.


Most know where to aim at a target but not everyone knows where to aim on a deer. 

Or it could have been a poor choice of gun and bullets.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

An oversight that I've seen cost a lot of missed/injured and lost game is a failure to confirm zero in the position the hunter will actually be shooting from. 

Most bolt action hunting rifles are set up with pressure pads intentionally left in the stock by the manufacturer- despite the current fashion trend, a thin-barreled rifle does not necessarily shoot best when "floated". In order to maximize accuracy across the line, and mitigate POI shift as the barrel heats up, most manufacturers (until recently, at least) left high spots in the front of the stock's barrel channel. 

When a shooter zeros off a bag or bipod, and rests their rifle similarly in the deer blind, it's usually not a big deal. But, when a shooter zeros off a bag, but then shoots off-hand with a sling that is pulling down on the front of the stock, that little bit of flex can sometimes cause significant POI shift. 

The severity varies from rifle to rifle, but the effect is real. I've seen an otherwise zeroed rifle shift POI by as much as 12 MOA because of a sling, and return precisely back to zero as soon as it is put back on the bag. It is a good practice to always confirm your zero from the position you expect to be hunting it, just to be sure there are no surprises.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Both of my Marlins have light sporting barrels. There was a rest at the front of the stock, however I free floated both of them. The stock was kind of flimsy so I reinforced it with some 5/16 threaded rod and some JB weld under the channel. Accuracy is superb however it goes down hill as the barrel warms up. This however is something I try to avoid. Especially with the .243. Fortunately, I never hunted with a warm barrel. With a cold barrel these things are dead nuts accurate. I'm talking fly hunting. With the patience one learns with age, plenty of range time, and a good bipod or shooting sticks, I am a much, much better shot then I was as a young man. As I approach them in age I am starting to understand the grizzled old farts who shoot less than half inch groups at 200yds. Someday I hope to be one.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Over 95% of game is taken at 200 yards or less so that hardly matters.


I guess I'm happy for the other 95%. I hunt west Texas, Wyoming and Montana. I don't think I have taken big game under 200 yards in over 4 years so it is relavent to some maybe not you but still relavent.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> The severity varies from rifle to rifle, but the effect is real. I've seen an otherwise zeroed rifle shift POI by as much as 12 MOA because of a sling, and return precisely back to zero as soon as it is put back on the bag. It is a good practice to always confirm your zero from the position you expect to be hunting it, just to be sure there are no surprises.



Your telling me that a sling will change my point of impact by 12" at 100 yards? That's not because of having no pressure from where there was on a bag that's ---- poor shooting ability between the 2 stances.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

he is saying if your barrel contacts the stock and then you bend the stock significantly with the use of a sling it changes the POI 

if the stock is rigid enough and inlet such that when you use a tight sling you can still take that dollar bill and slide between the barrel ans stock this wouldn't be an issue

but I think the point is you shoudl test as many conceavable ways of shooting before you assume they will work afield 

prone with a hasty sling , prone with a loop sling , prone on on a back pack , prone with a bipod 
sitting with sticks , standing with sticks , well you can figure out the things your likely to do 

the thread is about people just assuming without trying


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Very true. Not only do do you have to shoot, shoot, shoot, you should do it from every position there is. Marksmanship is part of sportsmanship.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

I understand all that my point is a 12 MOA poi change is the shooter not the weapon or the difference between shooting off the bag bipod or with a sling. I know it can change it SOME but not 12 MOA worth. I mean let's think about this if you barely touch the barrel to the stock or relieve it some and the barrel changes the poi I wouldn't touch that flimsy rifle it would probably blow up in your face with that much flex.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

12 MOA is a significant change and probably a bit of an exaggeration or the most extreme case found
that would be 3 inches at 25 yards 

but changing POI is something to watch for and try shooting all the ways you can 

my dad used to belong to a range that allowed single loading only at the rifle range and only shooting from the bench you had to ask to load 2 or more and then they wanted you shooting them only at the speed that you would single load , big Pain but one of the only places to shoot near him , really it was more of a shotgun club.


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## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

ksfarmer said:


> Buddy was a marine in Nam. Could shoot lights out at targets, put him in the woods hunting deer and he was terrible, we spent a lot of time tracking wounded deer. I never could figure out what it was.


Not everyone can keep it together when taking a life is involved. That is not meant as a slam on your buddy or anyone else who deals with that challenge. It is the great unknown that the military, law enforcement and hunters cannot predict.


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