# More on food shortages



## Guest (Mar 19, 2008)

Millions more of the world's most vulnerable people are facing starvation as food shortages loom and crop prices spiral ever upwards.

And for the first time in history, say experts, the impact is spreading from the developing to the developed world.

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/he...849.0.2008_the_year_of_global_food_crisis.php


The dramatic escalation of grain prices now feeding through into a wide range of other foodstuffs seems to have taken world leaders completely by surprise. This may also explain, though it certainly does not excuse, their almost complete lack of public response to the new danger of a global hunger pandemic.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/john_palmer/2008/02/why_the_cap_finally_fits.html


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

It amazes me how disconected the leaders of this country are. Many of us have seen this coming for quite some time, yet "they" are surprised by it? :stars: I think it's way past time to replace the career politicians with people who have lived in the real world and know what the problems are. One thing is certain, the average man on the street can't mess things up any worse than the career politicians have.


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## diane (May 4, 2002)

Spinner said:


> It amazes me how disconected the leaders of this country are. Many of us have seen this coming for quite some time, yet "they" are surprised by it? :stars: I think it's way past time to replace the career politicians with people who have lived in the real world and know what the problems are. One thing is certain, the average man on the street can't mess things up any worse than the career politicians have.


I sure makes you wonder doesn't it!! I have said it before, we would probably really benefit from just chosing our leaders via the "lot" like we do our elders in our church. Serve a certain amount of years, then "thank you very much, move on back home now."


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## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

Its called peak oil and climate change, both, due to overpopulation.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

hillsidedigger said:


> Its called peak oil and climate change due to overpopulation.


You're kidding, right?


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## baldylocks (Aug 15, 2007)

Mom_of_Four said:


> You're kidding, right?


It seems pretty important to the argument. What is your opinion?


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2008)

Lotsa links about the worldwide wheat shortage:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&um=1&tab=wn&q=wheat+shortage&btnG=Search+News


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## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

Mom_of_Four said:


> You're kidding, right?


Why would you think I am not serious about that statement? The first paragraph in Ladycat's linked article says:

"the new face of hunger. A perfect storm of food scarcity, global warming, rocketing oil prices and the world population explosion is plunging humanity into the biggest crisis of the 21st century by pushing up food prices and spreading hunger and poverty from rural areas into cities."

By any measure, this world was designed for only a small fraction of the people that are here.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Climate change happens. That always is a factor in crop growth, but blaming "climate change" on the activities of humans is pretty bogus. I think tho, the biggest problem causing food shortages is political. Look at Zimbabwe, for instance. A few yrs ago they were 'The Breadbasket of Africa". Now they are starving and cannot import enough food for the population. All because of politics.


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## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

Cyngbaeld said:


> Climate change happens. That always is a factor in crop growth, but blaming "climate change" on the activities of humans is pretty bogus. I think tho, the biggest problem causing food shortages is political. Look at Zimbabwe, for instance. A few yrs ago they were 'The Breadbasket of Africa". Now they are starving and cannot import enough food for the population. All because of politics.


Anyone who still thinks human activities are not adversely affecting (not necassarily 'warming') the Earth's atmosphere and climate just needs to observe for a little longer.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2008)

Cyngbaeld said:


> Climate change happens. That always is a factor in crop growth, but blaming "climate change" on the activities of humans is pretty bogus. I think tho, the biggest problem causing food shortages is political. Look at Zimbabwe, for instance. A few yrs ago they were 'The Breadbasket of Africa". Now they are starving and cannot import enough food for the population. All because of politics.


Food shortages have been primarily political for years. But the current wheat shortage is due mainly to drouths, flooding, and now that wheat disease that has hit the ME/Asian wheat belt.

And don't forget the rice shortage, too. Most of the world depends on either wheat or rice, so both staples being short is really bad.


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## diane (May 4, 2002)

History is full of famines, droughts and plagues and it has always been the subsistance existance, hand to mouth people who have suffered the most from them. Politics comes in there and so does greed......that is the human factor. All we can ever do is try to do the best we can to care for ourselves and share with those less fortunate.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2008)

Video from local TV station:

http://texomashomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=6358

Bakeries all over the country are experiencing the same.


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## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

diane said:


> History is full of famines, droughts and plagues and it has always been the subsistance existance, hand to mouth people who have suffered the most from them. Politics comes in there and so does greed......that is the human factor. All we can ever do is try to do the best we can to care for ourselves and share with those less fortunate.


But history is not full of cases of the world having almost 7 billion people. This extreme overshoot in numbers is a one time event, hasn't happened before, cannot happen again and won't last long. This unfolding event is what the wise are preparing for.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

ladycat said:


> Millions more of the world's most vulnerable people are facing starvation as food shortages loom and crop prices spiral ever upwards.


Much of the starvation has nothing to do with prices or really a food shortage. 
It has to do with to many people living in areas where food production just isnt possible. Ifyou live in a desert you cant complain about food shortages. Of course the is a shortage.
About 30% of the world is land. Of that almost 1/2 can support crops, but only 15% actually has crops on it.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2008)

diane said:


> History is full of famines, droughts and plagues and it has always been the subsistance existance, hand to mouth people who have suffered the most from them. Politics comes in there and so does greed......that is the human factor. All we can ever do is try to do the best we can to care for ourselves and share with those less fortunate.





hillsidedigger said:


> But history is not full of cases of the world having almost 7 billion people. This extreme overshoot in numbers is a one time event, hasn't happened before, cannot happen again and won't last long.


Normally there will be poor harvests some places and good harvests in others. Importing/exporting spreads the food out (except in politically unstable countries).

The unique problem we're having now is that there are poor harvests *globally*.

Combine that with higher demand everywhere and you begin to get the big picture.

Another article:

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/SuperModels/CouldWeReallyRunOutOfFood.aspx


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2008)

Have I posted this one yet?

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2008/03/07/the-growing-food-cost-crisis.html


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

Does everyone think humans will remain forever?
We are just organisms like anything else. 
Take a petri dish, for instance. The bacteria growing on it continue and increase in population until either, there is no food left or their own wastes poison everything.
The earth is just a very large petri dish, and at some point, we will "disappear."
We may be able to stall things for awhile, but in the end.....


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## QuiltingLady2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Spinner said:


> It amazes me how disconected the leaders of this country are. Many of us have seen this coming for quite some time, yet "they" are surprised by it? :stars: I think it's way past time to replace the career politicians with people who have lived in the real world and know what the problems are. One thing is certain, the average man on the street can't mess things up any worse than the career politicians have.


Simply if doesn't affect them or theirs. The leaders both politcal and financial are seen doing what they can. Meaning people like Gates and his friends. The majority just don't give a darn.

Listen to what our Vice P. said yesterday to that reporter. She said that the majority of people wanted our service men and woman out of Iraq. He sneared with his little smerky look and said....So? 

They (our administration and leaders) don't care about the average US citizen. 
Just keep working clogs. Work till you're injured the please don't tax the system with your piddly needs. Just die and get on with it.


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## 4sam (Jun 8, 2006)

QuiltingLady2 said:


> Listen to what our Vice P. said yesterday to that reporter. She said that the majority of people wanted our service men and woman out of Iraq. He sneared with his little smerky look and said....So?


I heard this also. I couldn't even fricken believe it!:flame:


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## RockyGlen (Jan 19, 2007)

QuiltingLady2 said:


> Listen to what our Vice P. said yesterday to that reporter. She said that the majority of people wanted our service men and woman out of Iraq. He sneared with his little smerky look and said....So?


Are you serious? Is there video of this somewhere? Unbelievable!


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## 4sam (Jun 8, 2006)

RockyGlen said:


> Are you serious? Is there video of this somewhere? Unbelievable!



http://abcnews.go.com/search?searchtext=dick chenny interview&type=

click on Cheney on Iraq 'Major Success'


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2008)

RockyGlen said:


> Are you serious? Is there video of this somewhere? Unbelievable!


There's a video here:

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/index.html

Scroll down about halfway.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I missed that also. I'll have to check the links when I'm at a computer with sound. Thanks for posting them.

Angie


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## 4sam (Jun 8, 2006)

All I can say is that he is a fricken moron!


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

The only real facts about global warming is that some people believe in it and some don't. I'm one of the middle of the road people that sees climate change, but I firmly believe that it's normal, not caused by humans. Weather has changed over the centuries. I see no reason to believe that people are causing the changes today. I've heard scientific reports that say humans only create 2% of the problem. Even if the U.S. spent billions of dollars attempting to eliminate that 2%, we could not do it. 

Famine has happened in local areas over the centuries. The current system of paying farmers to NOT grow crops is a "train wreck" waiting to happen. It doesn't make since to limit crops in where and how much can be grown. Back when most food was produced locally emergency supplies could be imported to fill in the gaps when a local crop failed. The world adopted the emergency imports as normal and crops were specialized. Now when there is a crop failure somewhere it effects everyone. The idea of putting it all in one pot to divy up has made the world co-dependent on everyone else. We need to get back to local areas providing local foods. 

Our politicians need to repay the food storage that the law requires them to keep. They have taken our food supply and given it away or sold it. They never replaced it. Very few people know that there is a law that requires a supply of food in storage. I think it's based on the Biblical prophecies of 7 good years/7 bad years. They've emptied the graineries and left them set empty when they should never have been emptied in the first place. 

Politicians are used to doing whatever they want without answering to the public. Suddenly the public is starting to wake up and see that the politicians are not doing what the people want. It's going to get interesting. Sending a politician to DC and not watching them is kind of like putting your money in a bank and never checking your bank statement. Politicians are public servants, but the system has been manipulated to turn them into public babysitters.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2008)

Spinner said:


> The only real facts about global warming is that some people believe in it and some don't. I'm one of the middle of the road people that sees climate change, but I firmly believe that it's normal, not caused by humans. Weather has changed over the centuries. I see no reason to believe that people are causing the changes today.


Same here. I don't think there's global warming other than normal climate cycles. I don't think humans are having as much of an impact on climate as some believe, although I do think that we are responsible for a small amount of it.


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## cchapman84 (Jan 29, 2003)

As far as the climate change thing goes, look at it this way. The earth has natural cycles of highs and lows. But, when humans are doing something that exacerbates and reinforces one of those highs or lows, it could send it quite a bit higher or lower than "normal". No one knows where the threshold is for massive weather/climate changes that could have a severe impact on survivability. So, whether humans are responsible for 10% or 50%, it doesn't really matter if it's enough to push us over that threshold. 

During the little ice age (end of the middle ages through the Renaissance and into the Victorian period), hundreds of thousands of people died because of disease and famine. The earth's population was significantly lower at that time and there were fewer mouths to feed. Countries that adapted did okay (switching to cold-tolerant crops such as potatoes, as most of Europe did); countries that resisted had massive food shortages (France refused for a very long time to switch from growing grains, potatoes were considered to be too 'lowly' for them, and they had huge death tolls from starvation). 

But, at this point it doesn't really matter what's causing it. World governments are not going to respond quickly enough, and even if every individual on the planet started doing all they could to lower their impact, it's too late. I think we've already passed the point of no return, and this is going to be the most severe climate peak (or valley) that the earth has seen since at least the last major ice age, maybe ever. 

Over the past 8 years that I've been back in Vermont (after 4 years away), I've noticed major weather changes. We've had much more severe weather, with either significantly more snow and much warmer temperatures (I think we've only had 3 or 4 days this winter when the temperature was below 0ÂºF, usually we'll have at least a couple weeks worth). We've broken records on snowfall this year, but so much of it melts between storms that you wouldn't know it. When I lived here as a kid, we used to have severe cold (-20Âº daytime temp for 1-2 weeks was normal, with nights as cold as -40Âº without windchill on occasion; now the coldest mornings are only around -20Âº, and days rarely stay below 0Âº).

The climate is changing, humans are likely making it worse, and no one knows for sure how much worse.


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## ONG (Dec 7, 2006)

http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20071219/COMMENTARY/10575140

Global Cooling now.


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## YoungOne (Aug 22, 2006)

cchapman84 said:


> ... The earth has natural cycles of highs and lows. ....But, at this point it doesn't really matter what's causing it. World governments are not going to respond quickly enough, and even if every individual on the planet started doing all they could to lower their impact, it's too late.....The climate is changing, humans are likely making it worse, and no one knows for sure how much worse.


More or less my stance. Yea we might ne making it worse but untill they can put a scientific ANALYSIS on my screen they need to back off. Just today NPR had a coverage on SEA TEMPERATURE and how the new tracking system designed to record the seas cooling has recorded lower (minutely) and lower temps since the system went on line in 02-03(?). 

Over population sucks. IMO this is a regional issue though since many areas of the world have more than enough room while others are all sitting on top of each other. Sience has expanded our abilities to live together in closer and closer proximity without having the common plague's and general unhealthyness of such situations. Especialy if some WCS happens these areas will turn into cess pools pretty quick and the cheated mother-nature will come in full force.
JMHO
:soap:


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## diane (May 4, 2002)

ladycat said:


> Same here. I don't think there's global warming other than normal climate cycles. I don't think humans are having as much of an impact on climate as some believe, although I do think that we are responsible for a small amount of it.



I agree. My post about history and famines was not intended to make light of or negate the effect of the current crisis. I guess I should have been more clear. I just think it is amazing that as a group us humans can be so dense and so living on the edge as to totally ignore the potential for world famine. Our politicians are lining their nests and the corporate big wigs won't suffer a lick, but us little guys had better take care of ourselves because certainly no one else is going to or has even planned for this kind of event.

One of the reasons I have always prepped, even when I lived in town, was because I believed it was my responsibility to keep me and my family out of the food lines. NO FREE RIDES.:lookout:


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

Whether you believe that humans are *causing* the changes in climate, there is no dispute whatsoever among climatologists and paleoclimatologists that what humans are doing will not allow the earth to MEND itself when the damage is done.

The difference now vs. 700 years ago or 1 million years ago is that the earth's climate changed negatively, and it was able to reverse those negative changes. This time around, the changes will be made, and there will never be any going back. But who really cares, right? We'll be dead... let our grandchildren deal with the problem. It would simply cramp our entitled lifestyle too much to change the way we live, now wouldn't it?


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

some thoughts I found interesting re: food:
http://littlebloginthebigwoods.blogspot.com/2008/03/world-carelessness.html
--sgl


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

I have always found it funny. The liberal politicians are the ones who keep pushing evolution over GOD, yet they they scream Global warming which is nothing more than an evolutionary step driven by man.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

I see brown skies and obscured views from air pollution. To say humans dont affect the environment in a huge way is to look with eyes closed.

Your car emits over 100 poisons from the tailpipe.We test them and control 2!

Our water is in the majority of sources polluted.

And humans have no effect? PUHLEEZE!

The only given is the Earth will survive. And it will do so by responding to the forces acting upon it. Our actions upon it WILL result in a response in one form or another.The Earth is not static.Its constantly adapts and changes.And it is responding to the carp we are dishing out.

Climate change due to hydrocarbon emissions seems pretty reasonable to me.And we are freeing huge amounts of hydrocarbons.If we can turn the skies brown,thats a huge effect and has to be responded to.And the Earth will,bet on it.


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## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

The current run-up in human numbers to levels that cannot possibly be sustained for long has been allowed by the discovery and use of abundant, easily harvested fossil fuels which in turn are fowling Earth's atmosphere. Within a few more years, the easily harvested fossil fuels will be depleted, the numbers of people will drop proportionately and until many eons pass for the formation of new easily harvested fossil fuels, such numbers of people cannot arise again, essentially meaning never.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

We can live without hydrocarbon fuels. The masses just wont accept that thanks to wonderful propaganda by the wealthy OIL SOAKED elite and their puppets to make public opinion.

We dont have to be an oil based society where energy and transportation depend on fossil fuels.Their ARE alternatives.

Just look outside that box you been put into.

You have the greatest nuclear power source ever,and it shines half your life.Its called the sun! And it possesses the potential power FAR exceeding any demands we have now or in the very far foreseeable future.

But remember...we can make new life forms...send probes out of our galaxy....run robots on other planets...BUT cant harvest the suns energy????

Yep,propaganda has the masses totally flummoxed. You will die without fossil fuels,the world will end as we know it? Meanwhile the sun shines unlimited power. OK,then you deserve to die if you/we as a people cant grasp the concept.


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## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

mightybooboo said:


> We can live without hydrocarbon fuels. The masses just wont accept that thanks to wonderful propaganda by the wealthy OIL SOAKED elite and their puppets to make public opinion.
> 
> We dont have to be an oil based society where energy and transportation depend on fossil fuels.Their ARE alternatives.
> 
> Just look outside that box you been put into.


I doubt that anywhere near 7 billion people can exist here on Earth without the use of massive volumes of hydrocarbon fuels.

700 million might easily survive with hydrocarbon fuels.

In another thread, currently running here at HT, the poster asks what equipment they would need to farm 1000 acres. Without abundant fossil fuel for machinery and fertilizer, there is no way one or just a few people could adequately farm 1000 acres.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

take chemical fertlizer out of the picture and see how many people get fed.we would have to triple amount of acres in food production and fast.one day all that will matter is you have a small holding and be able to produce food for yourself and family...IMHO.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

hillsidedigger said:


> I doubt that anywhere near 7 billion people can exist here on Earth with the use of massive volumes of hydrocarbon fuels.
> 
> 700 million might easily survive with hydrocarbon fuels.


Why?

The sun has more power than we can ever use. Sure dont NEED to have fossil fuels for energy and transportation.

All we have to do is DEMAND changes and it will happen.

Just as we have demanded renewable electricity out West. Its not only happened,it was done painlessly and is ahead of schedule in meeting the mandated levels.

And done without mass extinction too.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Elkhound,I dont propose to remove fertilizer at all.

We can reduce our fossil footprint hugely through other tech and better efficiencies.

We do NOT need to be fossil fuel based as a society.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

boo....it will be a long hard road to change.if the company comes through with the $1 watt solar panels next year.i will install solar for all my needs.i am working and saving my pennys now for it.i just hope i can keep working.its silly to be at the mercy of electric company with that big red ball pumping out free power.i am already doing well with my home as i face south.my electric bil is very small.BUT...i want it to be zero.i want to retire early and by that time i want my daily living expenses to be ZERO.i am debt free now..but i want my homestead to produce most of my daily needs from food to power if possible.i guess you could say i am doing mutiple investments for the future.i am working on rain/water catchment system right now.i want to grow fish in a controled "pond" but it has morfed into a water use system also.but that will be the last stage and is a year or more off.i have a well...but..i want a second place to get water besides my creek or pond....the creek dries up regular.sorry for rambling......lol


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

No effect at all,LOL!


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

boo.......to many people being dirty.....lol...cough..cough


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

elkhound said:


> boo....it will be a long hard road to change.


It can be done.The power companies move to renewables has been painless out here.And its happening at a FASTER pace than legislated.

No soaring costs. No blackouts. It just plain works.

It can be done.


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## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

Energy from the Sun is diffuse and must be collected and concentrated requiring a great investment in infrastructure. I suppose it could happen and some say that a mere 10% of America's cropland could supply all liguid fuel needs from cellulosic ethanol.


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## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

The move to renewable sources requires fossil fuels to create the solar panels, the hydro-electric generators, etc.

A solar panel cannot capture and produce enough energy in its lifetime to create another solar panel.

We're trying to make the move to solar, too, because we want to be less reliant on others for our well being. But I don't think solar is the panacea some folks think it is.

I agree with elkhound, the only reason our earth currently supports so much human life is because we've learned to extract the energy from fossil fuels.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Since it so expensive and cant be done making electric from solar,why are we actually doing it successfully here? Bottom line is its real and it works.

Scoff all you want,its what I said. The propaganda forces have you hooked on oil and you cant think outside the box.

*I live in the land of renewable affordable energy*.Real solar plants that WORK. Real wind turbines that work. All at affordable prices and CLEAN to boot. And its an exploding market with much current construction and many many plants on the drawing board.

But then again I believe my own lying eyes when I see these plants,and again when I pay my electric bills.

You want to believe you will die without fossil fuel and energy then guess what? You will.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

The move to renewable sources requires fossil fuels to create the solar panels, the hydro-electric generators, etc.
Sooo....whats your point? We cant move from it by using oil? Why not?


A solar panel cannot capture and produce enough energy in its lifetime to create another solar panel.

I would say 'Prove It' but why? I can dispute that as well as you can defend it.
And you have picked,hands down,the MOST EXPENSIVE form of solar power generation there is!


I agree with elkhound, the only reason our earth currently supports so much human life is because we've learned to extract the energy from fossil fuels.
True,but again,so what? We can move away from it.What on Earth makes you think we are locked into a world that can ONLY run on fossil energy?Thats Ludicrous! We change we evolve and so does technology.The oil age will pass on,and be but a blip in history.

But Im done pointing it out. Its always a huge waste of time to talk the reality we are living out West right now.

And all it took to become reality was a legislative stroke of the pen to make the power producers switch to this *new* form of energy,RENEWABLE CLEAN ENERGY (Though its the Oldest form in the Universe I would guess).

Nobody died. Nobody went broke. Nobody was unable to afford it. It just worked.REALITY.

Renewable Energy Works.


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## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

My point is that the people who tout the efficiency of renewable energy, like those who laud the wonders of ethanol from corn, forget that it COSTS energy to produce the windmills, the solar panels, the hydroelectric turbines, the ethanol. It's better than burning coal or oil, yes, but it's still a net loss proposition.

We are locked into a world that can only run on fossil energy because there are too many of us on this earth.

Imagine a fish farm, with ponds filled to their limit with fish. The ponds are artificially aerated and the fish are fed. Those ponds only support all those fish because there are outside energy inputs (aeration, filtration, food). The pond itself can't really support all those fish.

Our earth can't really support all these people without the cheap energy that fossil fuels provide. We can't grow the requisite quantities of food without the petroleum based fertilizers, the tractors, combines, and other equipment. We might be able to clean, process, and can the foods using hydro, wind, or solar. But then we have to transport the food to its destination, and that requires fossil fuels - even if you had electric trucks or trains, you have to have fossil fuels to build the highways or the railroads.

Yes, we can live without fossil fuels. Some of us. But not all of us. There are too many of us in this pond.


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## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

"Yes, we can live without fossil fuels. Some of us. But not all of us. There are too many of us in this pond."

Exactly and the some will need to get really smart with cellulosic ethanol or live lives of very little personal transportation. Keep in mind that a mere 20% of the people in the world are bringing Peak Oil to everyone and to all future generations.

Question: What differentiates cellulosic ethanol from methanol (wood alcohol)?


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

turtlehead said:


> My point is that the people who tout the efficiency of renewable energy, forget that it COSTS energy to produce the windmills, the solar panels, the hydroelectric turbines, . It's better than burning coal or oil, yes, but it's still a net loss proposition.
> 
> That is absolute HOGWASH! And PLEASE look up solar troughs.Panels are NOT the way solar power is being made here commercially,its EXPENSIVE.And I will admit Corn Ethanol is a boondoggle on many counts.But the tech for growing fuel is coming,there are much better answers than corn ethanol.
> 
> ...


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## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

I totally agree that we can cut the use of fossil fuels dramatically and drastically.

The only place I disagree with you, really, is that I think we're cutting over a few decades too late, and that our society *will* be severely impacted as a result.

At the end of the day, though, we're both just guessing (based on our interpretations of the facts we have at hand). I think we both agree that we all need to remove our dependencies on fossil fuels as much and as quickly as possible. That's important to personal comfort as well as global footprint.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

I agree.Our energy policy has left us in a position of being *severely* impacted.We are getting body slammed.

Thank our lucky stars that FINALLY something is coming along that is changing it.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

BB, a factoid you probably will like. There is a power plant located next to a coal mine (Falkirk Mine) in North Dakota. The mine produces the coal to run the electric plant and the power plant produces the power to run the shovel (something like 5 MW as I recall), That is just a small example.


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