# Advice on raising large amounts of bottle calves



## Heritagefarm

We're thinking about mass raising holstein bull calves / steers to give us a boost. We were thinking about doing 24 calves, with 8 calves in 3 month increments. Have any of you done this, and if so, did it work well? What size lambar would we have to have? Nurse cows would be better, but we can't afford any....


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## myersfarm

I raise dairy heifers 90 at a time on milk bars.....check out the thread on here ... sale barn calves....a little advice if you are doing 24 at a time somebody will need to be there 24 hours a day...when you have sick calves


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## VaFarmer

feeding time gets to be a job, I had 9 going this spring, a patch of 5 last winter, now do 2 at a time. fixing 9 bottles and carring them to the barn then cleaning gets old, 9 bottles are heavy. I had the guys in a shared stall with the 9 bottles hanging on the gate and a free for all feeding time, I'd call them in from the field and wait till everyone was there then but the bottles in the hangers sometimes fix a couple of extra bottles for fast eaters. Would have been easier if in individual stalls or something, 2 at a time is great, 10 min to fix, easy to care in 1 bag, 10 min for them too eat, quick clean up, done.


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## sammyd

we prefer to keep them in separated in hutches till weaning then group them on pasture with a large shelter. We use bottles. We don't have nurse cows but do have a herd of goats.....
6 or 7 at a time is about the most we've done. 4 hutches with 4x8 sheets of plywood as roofs between them.


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## francismilker

I have kept up to 40 at a time with the help of my kids. It's a pretty big job the first week getting them all on their feet good and nursing well. After that, for us, it's just MR mixing or cow milking everyday to feed the mob and business as usual. I don't generally have too many probs after the first week but would recommend someone looking at them at least every couple hours for the first week or so.


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## myersfarm

Francis...I use the
3 day rule this is when you have the most problems check every few hours make everybody get up....the sick ones will scour when they get up also walk around in pen looking for scours
10 day rule you should be safe but still better check make everybody get up 4 times a day 2 at feeding and 2 during the day 

14 days check at feeding real good for wet tails


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## topside1

Where in the world is all that milk going to come from?


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## Chixarecute

When we dairied at DH's uncles place, he had a calf pen with teeny calf stanchions. It didn't work well for the youngest (under 2-3 weeks), but after that it was great. Feed them a little grain, lock them in, bottle/bucket feed, a little grain, wait a half hour or so to release.


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## Heritagefarm

topside1 said:


> Where in the world is all that milk going to come from?


Milk goats!:stars: A lot of milking, but we have a milk machine that can do two at once, with me milking one by hand also. That means milking three at once, so it shouldn't be too big of a hassle. Nurse cows are easier, but like I said, they're just not in the budget.



Chixarecute said:


> When we dairied at DH's uncles place, he had a calf pen with teeny calf stanchions. It didn't work well for the youngest (under 2-3 weeks), but after that it was great. Feed them a little grain, lock them in, bottle/bucket feed, a little grain, wait a half hour or so to release.


Hm, that sounds like a lot of work. To start off, we keep them in smaller pens until they're past the "we-will-drop-dead-instantly," then we put them out on pasture.




myersfarm said:


> Francis...I use the
> 3 day rule this is when you have the most problems check every few hours make everybody get up....the sick ones will scour when they get up also walk around in pen looking for scours
> 10 day rule you should be safe but still better check make everybody get up 4 times a day 2 at feeding and 2 during the day
> 
> 14 days check at feeding real good for wet tails


We have very good luck giving the calves Calf-Pro and yogurt. We've noticed a very marked decrease in scours that way.
What do you use as your giant lambar? We may just bite a bullet and go for 44 calves.


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## topside1

Currently I'm on a calf raising vacation. But, normally I only raise dairy heifers, five at a time. My milk bar has five nipples. Three groups of five per year, raised on goats milk, frozen and fresh, sometimes MR in a pinch at weaning age. All calves were bought at auction, lost two out of 50 plus. Forgot to mention, raised at least one dozen bull calves as a beginner , cheaper way to gain experience. Bull calves came off local dairy farms...Always made money as long as you don't factor in your time. Hard work IMO.....Topside


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## myersfarm

What do you use as your giant lambar ? if that was for me...I put in pens of 5 and feed in a 5 or 6 nipple MILKBAR I have 20 milk bars


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## topside1

As Myers mention, separating and sorting is the best method. Sort by size, breed, age, illness, easier to identify, also makes feeding more enjoyable I'd imagine...Topside


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## myersfarm

Topside I sort by SIZE....but I do also a few days sort by the HOGS the ones that are always butting the others off if they keep it up for a week or two.......I have it made with my buildings..I can set one up in 10 minutes with the frontend loader and throw in some hay ....I also always have a sick pen that is down wind of the other pens and also 50 yards away......AND I also have a inclosed horse trailer by the shop that I can put heat into if needed I have 40 of these buildings that hold 5 calves with 20 milk bars.....but I try not to share the milk bars unless I have to between two pens


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## myersfarm

one more thing I never sort new calves in to pens of calves that have been here a week


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## Heritagefarm

myersfarm said:


> What do you use as your giant lambar ? if that was for me...I put in pens of 5 and feed in a 5 or 6 nipple MILKBAR I have 20 milk bars


I don't have a giant lambar; I was wondering what you used for your giant milkbar. You said you have a milkbar for each batch of calves?
How do you wash them when you're done?
Are they expensive to make?
Thanks!



topside1 said:


> As Myers mention, separating and sorting is the best method. Sort by size, breed, age, illness, easier to identify, also makes feeding more enjoyable I'd imagine...Topside


Well, we were going to go for 24 bottle holsteins for 9 months, which is about when the goat's milk will slack off. People say that they have a 10 month lactation, but by the tenth month, the milk supply is insignificant. 
So that's 8 calves every 3 months. Wean at the end of three months, get new batch of 8. Do you usually have many problems finding the same ages of calves to feed?
I was going to feed all 8 at once, but now that you mention this, perhaps two pens of 4 would work better.


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## Lazy J

When you said Large Numbers I thought you really meant a significant amount of calves.

I had a customer in Idaho that had 36,000 calves from day old to 300 lb on the ranch, they were bottle fed for 5 weeks, that was about 3000 calves fed bottles every day. Of course they had their own pasteurizer and had a crew of Mexicans to do the work.

Jim


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## myersfarm

hertitage thats the best part of my milkbars.....after I get thought putting milk in all the pens I go right back though putting in one quart of water the calfs suck that out cleaning nipples...plus the bars stay in pen and the calve suck on it instead of each other


http://www.farmandranchdepot.com/farm-equipment/MilkBars/ 

this what I use it sells for $93.60


this is a new company the ones I bought went out of business


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## myersfarm

here is mine


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## myersfarm

first picture show the ridge in bottom...so the calfs can suck most of it out


the grey one are the ones at $63.60 on website


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## Heritagefarm

Lazy J said:


> When you said Large Numbers I thought you really meant a significant amount of calves.
> 
> I had a customer in Idaho that had 36,000 calves from day old to 300 lb on the ranch, they were bottle fed for 5 weeks, that was about 3000 calves fed bottles every day. Of course they had their own pasteurizer and had a crew of Mexicans to do the work.
> 
> Jim


Hey man, when you're used to two calves at a time for three months jumping to eight calves seems like a lot! I'm pretty sure I can do it, though. And it's just little ol' me, I don't have a bunch of illiterates to work for me.:rock:


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## myersfarm

the milk bars makes it all easy....not difference in 30 or 90 just takes a little longer when you get set up
pouring in 2 1/2 gallons of milk and move to next pen...come back pour in quart of water in each pen.....wash out the barrels the milk was in the japanese truck...


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## Heritagefarm

myersfarm said:


> the milk bars makes it all easy....not difference in 30 or 90 just takes a little longer when you get set up
> pouring in 2 1/2 gallons of milk and move to next pen...come back pour in quart of water in each pen.....wash out the barrels the milk was in the japanese truck...


Thanks for posting the pictures of the buckets - that helps a lot. They are rather spendy, though!


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## myersfarm

with the cost of buying 5 bottles and have to wash off nipples before you give to next calf...plus stopping the calfs from sucking on each other they are a bargain at twice the price



forgot not haveing to wait on the calfs to finish before going to next pen


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## kycrawler

we raise tons of holstien steers and i use the grey milkbars like myers farm has . They are not priced bad in my opinion i can feed 100 calves every morning and night in about 45 minutes


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## Heritagefarm

kycrawler said:


> we raise tons of holstien steers and i use the grey milkbars like myers farm has . They are not priced bad in my opinion i can feed 100 calves every morning and night in about 45 minutes


That's a pretty short period of time.  It takes about an hour to milk, though. We may also be doing some nurse cows, which is an even bigger breeze than milk replacer.


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## Heritagefarm

Meyersfarm: Do those stick on cattle panels, or does the weight of the milk pull them over?
Thanks for all your help everyone; we're about to go headfirst into the calves! (Figuratively, of course. It might hurt if I actually did that.)
ETA: How durable would you say they were? Do they hold up well? How long have you had them?


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## myersfarm

Heritagefarm you email box is full 


yes thats what I use is cattle panels no the weight does not pull over...the milkbar fits 3 or 4 runs down not on the top.......My Milk bars the green ones are 6 years old some of the grey I bought used but I have had 3 years......replacement nipples are hard to put in till you get good at putting them in ...I replace all nipples on each batch of calfs they cost $3.09 each..because I do not wash out with HOT WATER each day.....the green ones 6 years old have raised for 6 years and 15 calfs a year and I keep mine on milk for 8 weeks ...so far never had one break....when replacing nipples NEVER EVER IN LARGE THE HOLE....you will get better at puting in replacemnet nipples I use cooking oil and wash off


remember I have only raised Heifers not bulls...but I do make money doing this way with heifers ......the selling price on heifers has gone way down now


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## myersfarm

Heritagefarm here is the link to my photobucket file......some of the old pictures before I got the buildings


http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y299/myersfarm/#!cpZZ4QQtppZZ16



anybody can look if it does not work just holler


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## Valmai

Heritagefarm said:


> Thanks for posting the pictures of the buckets - that helps a lot. They are rather spendy, though!


They don't need to be spendy. Here is a pic of some of my homemade ones. The most expensive part was buying the teats.









The homemade ones are the 200ltr (55gal?) drums. Holes drilled for the pull through teats, tubing with non return valves in the teats. Works a treat. I even made one for 2 calves out of a 20ltr cooking oil container.


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## Heritagefarm

Valmai said:


> They don't need to be spendy. Here is a pic of some of my homemade ones. The most expensive part was buying the teats.
> The homemade ones are the 200ltr (55gal?) drums. Holes drilled for the pull through teats, tubing with non return valves in the teats. Works a treat. I even made one for 2 calves out of a 20ltr cooking oil container.


Hey, those look great. Do they need the straws or are there some that can be put on any tub that go at the bottom of the milk container? Thus eliminating the straws. I find the straws rather annoying. 


Well, after many tedious Excel calculations, we discovered that we will only make about $250 per full-grown holstein steer. That's if they reach about 600-700 pounds at one year. So, we're going to try to get beef calves, because we will get $600 per calf.


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## Valmai

Heritagefarm said:


> Hey, those look great. Do they need the straws or are there some that can be put on any tub that go at the bottom of the milk container?
> .


You could put the teats right at the bottom but then you would have to put the drum on a stand. I have seen drums cut in half (like the black one with the milk pump hose in it)with the teats in the bottom and metal U shaped brackets at the top to hang on a gate. Never seen them in action and doubt they would be much fun! If you have a reasonable size (20-40ltr) retangular container it would probably work.
I usually do about 100-120 in spring and around 80 in autumn.


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## myersfarm

Valmai...wish I had your one on wheels...I almost bought on of those...but the $5000 slowed me down almost needed a neck brace after seeing the price


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## Valmai

I bought that from a dairy farmer friend for $400, a good deal. Before that I was planning on making my own, Ive seen a few around. 
Take a trailer or cart then either hang calfaterias off the sides
OR attach a piece of 50mil (2 1/2 inch?) irrigation hose around the outside 
drill holes in it and fit the teats
1 or more 55gal drums sitting on the cart with hose & gate valve connected to the 50mil hose, and there is your trailed calf feeder! It would need a release valve in the 50mil for the trapped air.


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## Heritagefarm

Myers and Valmai - 
How large do you let your calves get before selling them?


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## myersfarm

I sold at 400 lbs for $1080 ....best price I got then the market when down so I kept and breed them $800 for a bred 750 lbs....will be going to cross bred ... beef dairy crosses..and any beef calves I can find......next year bulls or heifers


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## Heritagefarm

I've designed an Excel spreadsheet, available for free here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtklOL77lN1UdFpLTjNiczBRZzFhaHFqSXRxWnF6VEE
Feel free to download it as an Excel and modify it to find out how much money you're actually making. Spots for grain, milk replacer, goats/nurse cows, profit/gross, etc.


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## myersfarm

Heritagefarm....I FEEL you are way off base....first look at STEFF post on the holstien she raised...it was 10 months old and taped at 595 pounds ...yes I know your beef steers will grow better than a holstien......but 1 pound of feed a day for a 700 pound beef steer will use more energy walking to the feed bunk then the gain it gets....hope STEFF will commit on how much gain a day her's got before going to freezer camp.....plus the price of $1.50 is way high....you calfs will not look as good as a calf raised on its mom ...Nore will it gain as fast .... grow skeleton....

TO make it simple USE 1 calf in you charts and 1 goat 

also I saw no price on the grass and hay you have to feed...since your keep 270 days


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## topside1

Heritage, I'm dieing to know where you plan on finding week old beef calves? Looking forward to your answer....Thanks Topside


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## mozarkian

topside1 said:


> Heritage, I'm dieing to know where you plan on finding week old beef calves? Looking forward to your answer....Thanks Topside


Me too! In this part of MO, there are lots more beef cattle raised than dairy for sure, but finding beef bottle calves is very rare and expensive when you can find them.


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## Heritagefarm

myersfarm said:


> Heritagefarm....I FEEL you are way off base....first look at STEFF post on the holstien she raised...it was 10 months old and taped at 595 pounds ...yes I know your beef steers will grow better than a holstien......but 1 pound of feed a day for a 700 pound beef steer will use more energy walking to the feed bunk then the gain it gets....hope STEFF will commit on how much gain a day her's got before going to freezer camp.....plus the price of $1.50 is way high....you calfs will not look as good as a calf raised on its mom ...Nore will it gain as fast .... grow skeleton....
> 
> TO make it simple USE 1 calf in you charts and 1 goat
> 
> also I saw no price on the grass and hay you have to feed...since your keep 270 days


AH. I uploaded the wrong document. That was the sheet for beef calves. The one for holsteins is set for $100 per calf at 4 pounds of grain a day for 270 days after 3 months on goat milk. I have modified this thing a hundred times now and personally I'm rather proud of it.


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## myersfarm

can I get that download


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## myersfarm

I have the full excel spreadsheet from a nutratish it cost to subscribe.... that lets me mix feed for protien ...how many days on feed and ADG EVEN SHOWS A DIFFERENCE IN STEERS AND HEIFERS


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## Valmai

The 1st link provides a basic worksheet for cost of rearing.
The 2nd link has 2 calculators. One of these should suit most situations.

http://www.calfcountry.co.nz/
http://www.ngahiwifarms.co.nz/cms/calf-rearing/viability-and-economics.html

I rear my calves for a specific market. They need to be minimum 100kgs (3 months old) to be on sold to finishers.


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## Heritagefarm

myersfarm said:


> can I get that download


Open the file in Google Docs. Go to file and save it as an Excel or whatever spreadsheet program you use.


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## myersfarm

Heritagefarm ..AH. I uploaded the wrong document. That was the sheet for beef calves. The one for holsteins 


is the download I was wanting to see for the Holstiens


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## Heritagefarm

I modified it from 24 beef calves at $1.50 # with 1 pound grain on replacer to 24 holsteins on goats milk at $1 # with 4 pounds grain. Woohoo $7000 profit excuse me for not jumping up and down in glee. 
ETA: Same doc:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtklOL77lN1UdFpLTjNiczBRZzFhaHFqSXRxWnF6VEE


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## myersfarm

Heritage why I wanted to see your Holstien doc. the price of calfs the selling price of calfs you are using....


Let me say I am trying to help you I am a Holstien grower...I know what it takes to grow them and sell them for good money and also no what it takes in money....make $300 a calf pure profit I way out of line.....I just do not want you to do all this investment then sale and lose ...

but thats up to you I will stop trying to help anytime


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## myersfarm

128	3840	34560 Goat Grain $16 
$1,843 TRUE 
you have a glitch there if it 34,560 pounds of feed for the goats at $16 a hundred it will be 5529.60 instead of your $1843...if I am wrong let me know if your figuring something else there


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## myersfarm

still do not see anything in the grass or hay price COST either


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## topside1

Here's the scoop from my perspective, to make any money raising calves you must deal in big volume. Raising under 25 calves per year will pay the taxes on your property, feeds, supplies, hay, and a little extra for upgrades to the operation (fencing, lighting, equipment, fuels). It's a rewarding hobby and I can clearly see how to make money (volume). Crunch all the numbers all you want & remember it's just my opinion. Been there, done that...Topside


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## Heritagefarm

myersfarm said:


> 128	3840	34560 Goat Grain $16
> $1,843 TRUE
> you have a glitch there if it 34,560 pounds of feed for the goats at $16 a hundred it will be 5529.60 instead of your $1843...if I am wrong let me know if your figuring something else there


The calculation is built is. It is first pounds of grain per day, then month, then 9 months.
The line mistakenly says "9 months" for the goat feed. I changed it to the correct statement ("3 months"). This is the formula:
=E14*3/100*J14
=grain / month x 3 / 100 x cost of grain per hundredweight.
I take you do not know how to use Spreadsheets?


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## Heritagefarm

myersfarm said:


> Heritage why I wanted to see your Holstien doc. the price of calfs the selling price of calfs you are using....
> 
> 
> Let me say I am trying to help you I am a Holstien grower...I know what it takes to grow them and sell them for good money and also no what it takes in money....make $300 a calf pure profit I way out of line.....I just do not want you to do all this investment then sale and lose ...
> 
> but thats up to you I will stop trying to help anytime


I don't understand your statement. Are you saying that $300 per calf profit is good or bad? You are doing bred heifers in a 18 month time slot whereas we're doing bull calves.


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## myersfarm

I know how to use and program spreadsheets have them even in my phone and palm e2 ....but you can program any space on any spreadsheet to show anything

ok this was your program accorting to you
128 3840 34560 Goat Grain $16 
$1,843 TRUE 

thats 128 pounds of goat feed a day or 3840 pounds goat feed a month or 34560 pounds goat feed in 9 months
as I stated 34560 pound of goat feed at $16 a hundred is how much 
5529.60 instead of your $1843




Heritagefarm said:


> The calculation is built is. It is first pounds of grain per day, then month, then 9 months.
> The line mistakenly says "9 months" for the goat feed. I changed it to the correct statement ("3 months"). This is the formula:
> =E14*3/100*J14
> =grain / month x 3 / 100 x cost of grain per hundredweight.
> I take you do not know how to use Spreadsheets?


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## myersfarm

Heritagefarm said:


> I don't understand your statement. Are you saying that $300 per calf profit is good or bad? You are doing bred heifers in a 18 month time slot whereas we're doing bull calves.




$300 of profit on a calf that you sell at 700 lbs in 270 days is dreaming big time I know what it cost to take a calf from 3 days old to 400 lbs and also what it takes to get to 700 lbs....to bred 6 months...I keep up with everything ON A SPREADSHEET EXCEL

I do dairy heifers the first ones at 400 pounds I KNOW DONE IT FOR YEARS LOOK BACK AT MY POST OVER THE YEARS ON HERE

I GIVE UP

HOPE YOU DO NOT MORTAGE THE FARM THINKING YOUR GOING TO MAKE THAT $7000 ON 24 CALFS LIKE YOUR SPREADSHEET SAYS


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## topside1

34,500 pounds of grain divided by 100 time 16 dollars....equals $5,500


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## topside1

Each animal eats 3% of it's body weight in hay per day. This does not including waste, all the steers and goats need hay...


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## Heritagefarm

topside1 said:


> 34,500 pounds of grain divided by 100 time 16 dollars....equals $5,500


That's the nine month period.


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## Heritagefarm

myersfarm said:


> $300 of profit on a calf that you sell at 700 lbs in 270 days is dreaming big time I know what it cost to take a calf from 3 days old to 400 lbs and also what it takes to get to 700 lbs....to bred 6 months...I keep up with everything ON A SPREADSHEET EXCEL
> 
> I do dairy heifers the first ones at 400 pounds I KNOW DONE IT FOR YEARS LOOK BACK AT MY POST OVER THE YEARS ON HERE
> 
> I GIVE UP
> 
> HOPE YOU DO NOT MORTAGE THE FARM THINKING YOUR GOING TO MAKE THAT $7000 ON 24 CALFS LIKE YOUR SPREADSHEET SAYS


I never said anything about $300 per calf in profit, I think it is closer to about $200 per calf in profit. You first mentioned $300 in profit per calf in one of your previous posts, which I thought was quite good on your part. Obviously I was wrong. 
And this plan is for 360 days. The goats feed them for 3 months and then they are on grain for 270 days. That's why the configurations are separate. If I enter milk replacer costs, the cost of raising them on three months increases dramatically. Feeding them goat milk cuts the cost by roughly 2/3, which is explains the higher profit margin.


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## topside1

Your spreadsheet is suppose to read E14 times 9 vice 3....=((E14*9)/100)*J14


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## Heritagefarm

Spreadsheet has again been modified to show profit per calf, 600 pound calves at $1 per pound. If I go much further we may start functioning in the red.:bash:





topside1 said:


> Your spreadsheet is suppose to read E14 times 9 vice 3....=((E14*9)/100)*J14


Sorry. I guess it's a little messy. The D column shows the grain, in pounds, for every day. Then column E (E14) actually multiplies the grain per day times 30. Column F (F14) multiplies E14, grain per month, times 9. That was for 24 calves in 3 batches of 8. Currectly that box (F14) is not being used. The total grain then configures the grain cost per month time 3 divided by 100 times 16, which is the cost of the goat grain.


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## myersfarm

$7000 PROFIT ON 24 CALFS IS HOW MUCH IS $291.66 VERY CLOSE TO $300


I never said anything about $300 per calf in profit, I think it is closer to about $200 per calf in profit.







Heritagefarm said:


> I modified it from 24 beef calves at $1.50 # with 1 pound grain on replacer to 24 holsteins on goats milk at $1 # with 4 pounds grain. Woohoo $7000 profit excuse me for not jumping up and down in glee.
> ETA: Same doc:
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtklOL77lN1UdFpLTjNiczBRZzFhaHFqSXRxWnF6VEE


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## Heritagefarm

myersfarm said:


> $7000 PROFIT ON 24 CALFS IS HOW MUCH IS $291.66 VERY CLOSE TO $300


So you admit that I never said $300? That's good... Right now I have it configured for absolute worst case scenario, which is $226 profit per calf. This has convinced me to get beef feeder calves; we will make more money.


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## myersfarm

Right now I have it configured for absolute worst case scenario

call feed store and see what calf feed you can buy for $12.00 a hundred


then call anybody you want and ask 
how much weight a day will a 500 calf gain with 4 pounds of feed a day 


then add in HAY PRICE


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## topside1

Heritage I'm glad you're excited and want to succeed, we are just making you aware of the possibilities....If I had the acreage and the energy I'd love go go at it big-time. Most I've raised in a year was 20, and sold those at weaning age....Keep the questions coming, I hope I'm helping...Topside


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## Heritagefarm

myersfarm said:


> Right now I have it configured for absolute worst case scenario
> 
> call feed store and see what calf feed you can buy for $12.00 a hundred
> 
> 
> then call anybody you want and ask
> how much weight a day will a 500 calf gain with 4 pounds of feed a day
> 
> 
> then add in HAY PRICE


Actually we could get it cheaper than $12 per 100 if we got a bulk bin, then it would be $8 per hundred.



topside1 said:


> Heritage I'm glad you're excited and want to succeed, we are just making you aware of the possibilities....If I had the acreage and the energy I'd love go go at it big-time. Most I've raised in a year was 20, and sold those at weaning age....Keep the questions coming, I hope I'm helping...Topside


Yes, you're both helping a lot. However, the main reason for doing this is because we wanted to stop doing labor-intensive goat raising; unfortunately we make $200 profit off each of the dairy goats as well!


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## Jcran

Heritagefarm said:


> Ok, not sure what the above comment meant, and lord knows this format doesn't allow for body language, but the folks around here who work the dairies (and I assume you mean the Latino workers) have the GREATEST respect for education and learning and most are NOT illiterate despite the fact that they've had a much harder go of life than the rest of us. They are parents in my classroom and their kids overall are the hardest workers and their parents demand/expect respect for adults and teachers:soap:. Off topic but that comment just kind of set me off.


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## Heritagefarm

Thus, an illiterate does not benefit a diary or for that matter, any operation except basic basic labor, which is what an average Mexican ends up doing. Unless they're here legally, in which case they could end up being a successful restaurant owner.


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