# Border Collie Question



## eyore (Jan 7, 2011)

Is it normal for them to nip and bite at people and show teeth and growl?
My neighbor has one he is a little over a year old and not fixed.
He has very little training, he goes outside to potty and will come in when called. He will chase the cars when the kids so go,go, go
They put one of the underground fences in and the dog wears a collar. It doesn't keep him in their yard. He runs up and down their yard chasing cars especially when the kids so go.
He has bite at everyone in there house. I don't think he broke skin on anyone though and he has growled and showed teeth to me and couple of other people when over there. 
Last weekend my granddaughter was in my driveway talking to there 2 little girls. The dog came with them, I turned my back for a split second and the dog bite my granddaughter. Thankfully she had a jacket on, but when I checked her arm you could see an impression of one tooth and it did bruise.
My husband kept saying this was going to happen and it did. 
He went over and told them to keep their dog on their own property. I guess now they are ticked about it all. Normally the mom would have me watch her kids when they get off the bus when she works. Today she had her father in law come get them.
They have a outdoor cat also and the dog has gotten hold of it also. This summer the dog chased the cat through my yard and through a corn field. The cat finally came back with the dog not far behind. I haven't seen the cat for a while so I don't even know if it is still around.
I have cats and have never owned a dog. My husband says this is not normal behavior and it comes from not being trained. He had dogs as a kid.
So, is this normal behavior for a Border Collar?


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## nostawmama (Dec 29, 2011)

Regardless of breed a dog should not bite people. Period. (unless of course it is a trained guard dog). This is purely aggressive, dominant dog behavior. I figure you know but please don't let kids be exposed to this dog, a bite to the arm is one thing but some of the most common dog bites in children is to the face.

ETA: Your husband is correct, btw.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

No this is not normal Border Collie behavior. The dog needs some serious training asap. Hopefully the owners do something about the problem before it gets worse. At a little over a year old there is still some hope to turn him around.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Normal behavior? No. But it is very common in a high energy dog that does not get any training or enough activity.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

BarbadosSheep said:


> Normal behavior? No. But it is very common in a high energy dog that does not get any training or enough activity.


True, BC's tend to be nippy, they are herding dogs...it is the owners palce to NIP that in the bud! The dog needs training and a job...a bored BC is just a disaster waiting to happen. Seen SO many turned into the pound because they bark when chained up in a back yard, or chase cats, or go wild in the house....seen a LOT of them killed "herding" cars. Not a dog for lazy idiots.

Mon


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## eyore (Jan 7, 2011)

Thank you all for answering. Unfortunately, they won't train the dog. 
I did google them once and told the lady they got bored easy if not kept busy, that they were high energy. That they are suppose to be smart dogs.
Well, she didn't really want the dog and her husband who brought it home isn't around that much himself. So the dog is let out all day and comes in when it wants to or when they leave. So, one day either the dog will end up in the road and killed or it will bite someone bad. 
I can only keep my granddaughter away from the dog, they have 2 girls 7 and 8. If anything happens it will be on the parents but hopefully nothing will happen.
I agree dogs shouldn't bite, but not knowing alot about breeds of dogs wasn't sure if this was a normal thing for this breed.
I have no idea why he wanted another dog, they have one that is a chocolate lab. I think he is around 9 years old. They got him when he was about a year old and he is a good dog. Never has tried to bite anyone and he listens. To bad the BC isn't more like the chocolate lab.


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## Chief Cook (Apr 24, 2011)

That is so sad, not only for the kids that have to be around the dog, but also for the BC. They are such smart dogs, and are constantly working. For a BC to just be left to his own devices it a disaster looking for a place to happen. The "man" that brought the dog home deserves a good swift kick in the pants for putting everyone, including the dog, in this position. Hope it works out, stay safe.


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

Leaving a BC to alone with no job is like leaving dynamite out next to a trail of fire. Sooner or later its going to blow up. We have owned BC almost my whole life. I now have a Smooth Coated Collie, and like most herding breeds they need a job. Be it actually herding animals up, playing ball. It makes me so said when I hear stories like this. I have a soft place for BC and its people like this that make horrible owners for herding breeds.


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## eyore (Jan 7, 2011)

His job is to chase the cars as they go by. He was getting down by the road and people were stopping and telling them about it. They put a invisible fence in but one area didn't have it, and that is where he was getting out at. They fixed it now and he doesn't get out that way anymore. 
But if the girls (kids)come over he follows so the invisible fence isn't keeping him in. He may decide one day to just go past and start running after cars again.
I hate to see him get hit so I hope he doesn't do that. We live on a really busy road.
My husband and I have talked and if he does continue to come over we will look into fencing our yard. He seems to only come over here if the kids or his wife comes over.
Which I don't see that happening anymore because it looks like they are ignoring us.


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

I should of also said if you don't give them a job they will find one. A lot of herding dogs are given up because people do not research what goes into owning one. We showed for years Shelties, like I said we had BC almost all my life, and now my Collie. When anyone talks to me about getting any of them I always say you must find them a job. My Collie is perfectly happy with going after a ball a couple times a day. My mom's BC goes out everyday when she works with her cattle, and goats. These dogs live to work and in my opinion if you have a herding breed and you leave them to figure a job out for their self then its abuse... IMO. 

I hope it clicks with these people sooner rather then later but as I have seen it for years it wont until the dog flips out.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I'd call the cops and report the bite. Even thou it didn't break the skin, and they probably won't do anything about it, they'll at least talk to the neighbor and let them know that they have been informed of the bite.

It's not a question of IF this dog will bite again...its WHEN. If the dog comes onto your property and bites a human, report it. Then WHEN the real bad bite comes, you'll have a paper trail showing that the owners were repeatedly warned about the dog biting, and when you sue them for the medical bills you'll have a stronger case.

Or maybe the cops/animal control coming out will convince these people to keep the dog off your property, and the bad bite can occur at their home with one of them. That's the best case scenario here.


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## eyore (Jan 7, 2011)

It's been a week now since it happened and her arm no longer has the bruise. If it should happen again, which I hope it don't then I will report it. 
Today they put a 5 line electric fence between their property and ours. Not sure if it is legal or not. 
My husband sent a email to our attorney explaining everything and to find out if it is even legal to put one up between properties like this. I do live in a agricultural area and he has them up for his cows. But this isn't to keep livestock in and the cows are on the other side of his house.
To bad they just don't train the dog.


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## defenestrate (Aug 23, 2005)

I would just emphasize to these folks that you don't want to see them lose their dog just because it is not getting the exercise and socialization it needs. Not sure about the fence legality, but a dog is not like a toy (I'm sure you know this) - they need certain amounts of exercise and boundaries set for behavior. Being extremely intelligent high energy dogs, I don't see any reason this cannot be corrected unless there is some kind of brain condition, but this would seem very reasonable in a dog that isn't stimulated and led in the right ways. Simply sitting on a porch and throwing a ball for a while is often all that is needed to keep a dog like this at a healthy exercise level.


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## 2wFarm (Jul 16, 2012)

eyore said:


> It's been a week now since it happened and her arm no longer has the bruise. If it should happen again, which I hope it don't then I will report it.
> Today they put a 5 line electric fence between their property and ours. Not sure if it is legal or not.
> My husband sent a email to our attorney explaining everything and to find out if it is even legal to put one up between properties like this. I do live in a agricultural area and he has them up for his cows. But this isn't to keep livestock in and the cows are on the other side of his house.
> To bad they just don't train the dog.


Homesteading Today states at the very top of this page:
"Neighborly Help and Friendly Advice". How is venting frustrations here in this public forum...being neighborly to your neighbor?

I hope that both parties will not lose sight of the fact they are neighbors, and should act neighborly. Mistakes can happen and will. What if the shoe were on the other foot? Would you want to find out you were being talked about on a worldwide forum? Would you want the police called? Would you want an attorney involved? Or would you want the neighbors to respectfully and calmly talk with you, to work WITH you in resolving the situation. After all, you do have to live near one another and the children interact.

I am only on the outside looking in, but it seems if they were willing to invest the money in 5-line-electric fence within 7 days of the bite, they are truly concerned and making an active effort to contain the dog. The fence is good for the dog and good for you. 

Please also consider there are now laws in many states about internet slander and internet libel. Posting statements like these on the internet might even be grounds for lawsuit on your neighbor's side. You might want to consider that before bringing a lawyer into it.

Again, I am thinking from the perspective "What if it happened to me?"...I am stating how I would wish people would handle it. Come to me, speak with respect and open dialogue to work it out. I would be really hurt and offended if I discovered the other neighbor would have vented about the issue on the public internet behind my back.

Just my perspective, and I mean no harm.:lookout:
Call me old fashioned...but we used to be neighborly. The world has changed. To me, Homesteading is about the old ways....like being neighborly...and polite...and helpful...and understanding...


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

2wFarm said:


> Homesteading Today states at the very top of this page:
> "Neighborly Help and Friendly Advice". How is venting frustrations here in this public forum...being neighborly to your neighbor?
> 
> I hope that both parties will not lose sight of the fact they are neighbors, and should act neighborly. Mistakes can happen and will. What if the shoe were on the other foot? Would you want to find out you were being talked about on a worldwide forum? Would you want the police called? Would you want an attorney involved? Or would you want the neighbors to respectfully and calmly talk with you, to work WITH you in resolving the situation. After all, you do have to live near one another and the children interact.
> ...



wow....your very first post here is to tell us how we are not allowed to vent on our own forum? Seems to me that part of being neighborly and helpful is to allow a friend to vent and to brainstorm about how to deal with unpleasant situations like this one. Most of us don't know each other. Since no names or addresses have been given out, we don't know who the OP is, or who her neighbor is. How can that possibly lead to a libel suit?? And again, since we don't know who this neighbor is, how could that neighbor be offended because we are talking about him behind his back?


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## eyore (Jan 7, 2011)

Thank you BarbadosSheep.

I sure didn't expect that about asking about a dog. As far as the electric fence, he didn't buy anything or very little. He has cattle so that is what he had so he wouldn't have to spend a large some of money. Plus if they were that concerned about the dog why didn't they train it. The dog has bite everyone in their family and growled and showed teeth to several. It isn't like they don't know how the dog is.
Unless you are going to track me then no one knows where I am except maybe the state I am in. I have not used any names of the persons.
And they could have come to us as well and talked about the fence, we would have helped cover the expense. So see that works both ways.
Would you want a electric fence between your houses so kids can touch it and get shocked? You do know kids have been killed by electric fences. Yes, the granddaughter has been told to stay away from it and she isn't allowed outside by herself but kids are fast and anything could happen, even to there own kids.
Oh, and I have been neighborly I have watched there kids off and on for them for FREE since the first one was born and when the wife would call here from work and asked me to do something for her I did. I have never asked them to do anything for me.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

don't stress about the electric fence. Modern fence chargers are not like they used to be. They send out a very brief zap followed by a period of no zap. So a fence can't kill enything. Shoot, even the old fenced that delvered a constant shock could not kill a kid or I'd be dead! In a rural area, you can't really complain or do anything about a neighbor's fence. I put a single strand on top of the fence that divided me from my neighbor. I did it for two reasons. First and foremost, I needed to get power to my front pasture. I could have rerouted the fence another way but the other reason I did it was my neighbor's children kept climbing on the fence and jumping. It was a fairly old woven wire fence and the kids were ruining it. So now my fence is protected from damage. I explained to my grandson (he was 3 at the time) that whenever he sees those bright yellow insulators, don't touch the fence. Kids are smart....he never got shocked even once. Don't worry about the fence at all.


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## eyore (Jan 7, 2011)

I'll try not to worry about it. When my husband was doing research on them he had found some articles where I guess kids had been killed by them. 
I assume the power would have had really been turned up though for that to happen and I'm not even sure when it happened.
I know as a kid I was zapped a couple of times with a electric fence and it does hurt. But obviously it didn't kill me. 
If we do anything we will probably put a fence up or trees. My husband has calmed down since he put it up, just concerned on kids getting zapped.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

the only fence capable of killing a child are when some idiot plugs the fence wire directly into a 110 outlet. That will kill. A regular commercial electric fence won't, and they can't be turned up. It hurts when you hit them, but only enough to make you draw back from it FAST!


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## eyore (Jan 7, 2011)

Oh ok, I honestly don't know much about them. But that's good to know it won't kill.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

Sounds completely normal for any dog of any breed whose owners let it run the roost, and don't bother training it.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

But I've noticed a new surplus of border collies from people who are in to field competitions. They are running kennels of nearly a dozen dogs each, but the ones that "grip" (not just nip but bite, or bite and hold) are offered out to anyone who'll take them off their hands. Makes me wonder - why can't they train them out of this, and how it might be affecting the general population.

Folks who keep dogs for real work seem to deal with the training, or not keep an untenable animal in the gene pool.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

RedDirt Cowgirl said:


> But I've noticed a new surplus of border collies from people who are in to field competitions. They are running kennels of nearly a dozen dogs each, but the ones that "grip" (not just nip but bite, or bite and hold) are offered out to anyone who'll take them off their hands. Makes me wonder - why can't they train them out of this, and how it might be affecting the general population.
> 
> Folks who keep dogs for real work seem to deal with the training, or not keep an untenable animal in the gene pool.


Is this something you are seeing in California? Most folks I meet in the competition circles want a dog who is at least willing to bite stock. Hanging on isn't unusual for a youngster lacking in experience and confidence. What venue of field trials are those breeders entering in?


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

Yes, it's something I'm seeing in California. I really don't know about the breeder's trial venues, only that I'm continually offered "a great dog for your ranch, I'm only letting it go because it's a gripper." I think they're just working sheep, we only have cattle. Plus the local weekly-squeeks and for-sale papers are just full of them, though they don't usually mention gripping.

All I know is that for our cattle dogs, we want a "nip and duck" so they don't get kicked. I've noticed more cattle ranchers going to collies now though. Farriers sseem to carry a truckload of heelers like a bunch of gremlins.


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## eyore (Jan 7, 2011)

If anyone is interested here is a update on things.
The electric fence is still up but I have gotten used to it now. The attorney never got back in touch with us, which is fine with me because I actually didn't want to go down that road. Hubby and I were just upset that is what they put up. After being reassured on here that it isn't as bad as I thought it was helped also. Thank you.
If we decide to put a fence or something up I'm sure we would talk to them before doing it.

As far as them being ticked at us like I thought they were, they weren't. She just didn't need me to watch the girls so I hadn't heard from her. As far as father in law picking them up twice, they were both getting off late and didn't think I would want to be watching the girls that late. Shame on me for jumping to conclusions about things.

They can't figure out why the dog bite my granddaughter, except 2 times in the past she threw some leaves at the dog and I think some rocks. This was a while ago. Which my granddaughter did get into trouble about that. I honestly don't think that is why he bite her though. I guess they called the guy they bought him from, and he said his dogs will bite at hands as well. I don't know the circumstances, they could be playing, I don't know.
Neighbors wife said if she is in the house and goes to throw something for him she will start counting and before she can get to 3 he is on the couch taking it from her.
I still think alot of it is not training the dog not to bite.

So for now all is well, the dog is staying on their side and my granddaughter is not allowed over there if the dog is out and I must go with her. 
With the weather getting colder though she won't be out as much anyway.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Not training the dog biting is wrong can be a huge problem. Dogs don't forget, so your daughter throwing leaves and rocks at the dog could cause the dog not to trust her. The next time she goes up to the dog and gives it a big hug for instance the dog could act out. . One thing you can do on your end is to teach DD good dog behavior skills(maybe you have already). A few examples would be: Don't run by a dog you don't know on his territory and/or when he is tied up. Don't hug or kiss a dog you don't know. Don't take food or toys away from a dog you don't know unless the owner says it's ok(parents in this case). Don't invade a dog's personal space if you don't know him, like sleeping, dog house, bed, etc. Whenever I take my dogs to do a demo, I am amazed at how many perfect strangers don't take the dog's mental welfare into consideration, but will start petting, pawing and hugging them. Don't take this as anything against your daughter, she might very well be a good dog person, but just some things to think about.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

Getting him neutered would help as well. Not only is is full of energy he is full of testosterone as well. That is not helping the situation at all IMO. 

I am glad they are not mad at you, they really should not have been since their dog is misbehaving and nipping everyone around him including family members. 

Some people get dogs that are not a match for their lifestyles or energy and it sounds like this is one of those times. No one can tell them what to do but if they really cared for the dog they would neuter him and train him. Or they they should re-home him to a working farm with full disclosure of his nipping problems, if they do not have the time or experience to train him. 

Hopefully the electric fence solves the problem of him coming over to your place and keeps him from getting hit by a car.


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## eyore (Jan 7, 2011)

Something had been mentioned once about neutering him, but I don't know if they have done it yet. 
I honestly don't think they see the nipping a problem, I think they think that is what dogs do. I've tried saying things before about training and it fell on deaf ears unless they think they have. 
Thankfully the fence has worked so far, lets hope it continues.


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