# Founder???



## MissKitty (Mar 16, 2005)

Can a heifer get to fat to the point she is foundered???...If so what do you do about it???...MissKItty


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## michiganfarmer (Oct 15, 2005)

what does foundered mean? I have heard that if a heifer is to fat it is very difficult to breed them artificially.


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## MissKitty (Mar 16, 2005)

Around here "foundered" is a term used when horses get too much feet and it does something to their feet...cripples them in away...I was wondering if a heifer could be fed to much and foundered...MissKitty


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## VTdairy (Oct 16, 2005)

Founder is another word for laminitis and has to do with their metabolism. Horses and cattle have different symptoms from what I've seen.

Horses have the rocking horse stance and what is actually happening is that their coffin bone is rotating in their hoof wall (ouch!). They get dead lame and can actually die. I've heard both terms used for horses. 

Cattle get lesions on the undersides of their hooves, but other signs are apparent usually from acidosis such as a bloody nose. Cows with laminitis will get lame, but I've never seen a really bad case of it in their feet. I've only heard the term laminitis with cattle. 

I would say to cut back grain on a fat heifer and feed her more good hay. A really high grain diet just isn't good for most animals. There are a few exceptions where I've seen a high grain diet managed so well that there aren't a lot of animal health problems. She will likely have breeding problems and if she does get pregnant and stays fat, then she is likely going to have a miserable time calving (more metabolic problems). 

Sorry for the brief answer, but I hope it helps.


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## Celtic Herritag (Jul 14, 2005)

Well sores on the feet is acidosis which causes founder but is not the same thing as founder. Just as in horses founder can be caused by a variety of different things, and have a variety of symptoms and severities. In cattle the most common seen is excessive and rapid hoof growth, with the horn of the hoof becoming very hard and growing in pronounced ring patterns. You could put your hiefer on a diet but I've never seen a case where the cow/steer/whatever foundered because they were overweight. Which leads to the next question how fat is your hiefer? Do you know how to body score cattle? Does she have large deposits of fat, in concentrated area or is it spread out roughly even? She may just be stocking up for winter, which is a good thing even if she does get a bit heavy.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Regardless of what the proper name is for the excessive hoof growth I have never seen a lasting remedy. If the animal is in good shape I would trim its hooves and send it to market or put it in the freezer. Life is too short to tolerate the problems involved with such a problem. Vet fees are excessive and you will still have the problems with just less money!


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## Celtic Herritag (Jul 14, 2005)

Aye that's about the only place for 'em but I don't think she's foundered yet. Has she?


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## MissKitty (Mar 16, 2005)

Had to call the vet...No she isn't foundered and he thought she wasn't being fed too much for her size...but she has pneaumonia...So we are treating her with antibotics...Personally I think she has a stomach virus or has eaten something that does not agree with her...she burps and has slight scouring...isn't eating much...gets around okay but lays down and get right back up...vet seems to think laying down might be making it harder for her to breathe...Two more injections to give her and hopefully she will be better by then...Not for sale..she is part of the family...we are fanactic or nuts..lol..They are family to us...MissKitty


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Is there any odd color to the scouring waste? She is obviously suffering from discomfort and that is why she is up and down. Hardware disease will give these symptoms.


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## MissKitty (Mar 16, 2005)

What there is of it looks dark green...I mentioned hardware disease to him and he kinda poo-pooed the thought...But I think that is it something other than the pneumonia...He explained to me what they did for hardware disease but didn't think it was that...Is there someway they could find out if it were hardware disease?...Would it show on a x-ray???...thanks...MissKitty


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I was thinking hardware, too. It can cause some weird symptoms, I suppose depending on where the item gets lodged. 

My other thought was a DA but the vet would have caught that!

Please keep us posted OK?


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## MissKitty (Mar 16, 2005)

What's a DA??? IS that where that thing gets flipped over???...He checked for that and it seemed okay...She seems like the kids used to when they were colickly...How do they diagnose hardware disease???....This calf is a registered Jersey for prize winning bloodlines...but more than that she is our baby...She is 14 months old and is around 700 lbs. the vet said...I rubbed her tummey for along time this evening like I use to the kids...she seemed to like it...I wish she could lay down comfortably...I know she must be tired...Any ideas???MissKItty


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