# 7 Month Doeling ?Pregnant? Help!



## CookingPam777 (Oct 16, 2007)

I have been questioning weather or not Rose my 7 month old doeling is pregnant. My buck escaped his pen and I was right there when he broke out and they got separated quickly. Her udder feels like it's getting a bit of bag to it. I have felt her teats ever since she was little so when she was bigger she would be used to getting her teats touched. So I know when her udder has developed any. And it has. Teats are getting fatter. She is huge for her age. She would have been around 8-9 pounds at birth. And is 1 inch shorter than mama and has been this way forever now at least 2 months. Is it possible she is just chubby down there? She is firm everywhere and not really fat but big. Anyhow what I am concerned about if she is pregnant will she birth okay since she is pretty much full grown size? Should I do anything extra that I would not normally do? Also how can you be for certain if she is pregnant? If her bag is filling up wouldn't that mean kidding is going to happen somewhat soon? I have to help care for someone in NC for a week so I really REALLY want to know she will not kid while I am gone. Everyone in the family has little experience. So if she had any difficulty what so ever it would not be a good situation. I can't say I am Mrs. Experience but I have watched a goat birth and thought the goat may need help. I was ready for action but everything went smooth I was just panicking. If she if pregnant the buck was Nubian/Alpine she is Saanen. Just so you can get an idea on the size of the baby. As you can tell I am really worried about her. I had other ideas about what was gonna happen but my buck thought quite differently . She was suppose to get bred this month to a saanen buck.

Please :help::help::help:


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I had a pygmy doe give birth at 10 & 1/2 months old. Not because I wanted her to but becuase of my ignorance when we 1st got goats & I kept my buck & doe's all together. Well I learned very quickly. I didn't know about this forum at the time & didn't know much about goats at the time. Well thank god everything worked out, she gave birth with no help. Her kid I still have, I wethered him & he is my most favorite goat & if I have my way will live with us always. I think he'd rather be with humans than the goats! Hahahaha! 
If you think your little doe is getting ready to give birth already wouldn't she have been too young to get pregnant? She would have been about 2 months old or so, does that sound right? I have only every had Pygmies & nigerians & so far my experience is that the young doe's come in heat the 1st time at around 5 months, but I keep my buck on the other side of the barn now.


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## CookingPam777 (Oct 16, 2007)

Your right! She was 3-4 months old at the time. I thought I for sure I separated them in time so never thought I have to remember when. So she would have a month or 2? Does the bag start filling up around 3 month?


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## tmfinley (Feb 25, 2008)

You can also have a pregnancy test done at biotracking.
tiff


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

young does are developing udders without being pregnant. 
7 month would be very young to kid. i would draw some blood and send in for testing.
cost only $7 and $4 for cae testing. will put your mind at rest


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

Please can I add a question to this post?

I have two young girls that I think may have been accidentally bred at about 5 months. I knew that the boys are fertile early so was ready with the "accident prevention" for the nannies. Unfortunately I didn't think about the girls coming into season so young and I believe they were standing to be bred while I was away for a couple of days  Over here we don't breed them for another year but I believe over there you breed in their first year?

My question is - what extra do they need now? I am worried that carrying kids whilst they are still growing will lead to calcium deficiencies etc. Obviously I am on damage limitation now, but can anyone point me in the right direction with these two girls please?

TIA

hoggie


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

why do you wait so long to breed? five months as long as they are i think 70-80% of their adult growth is the best time to get does bred that are going to be working for a liveing, that way their bodys dont get too much fat that wont work off, these are dairy animals right? 

as long as you are feeding good quality hay and not too much grain to make the kids too large they should be fine, if bred at 5 months they will kid at 10ish months and thats perfecet as long as they were kept in good condition,


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I believe that the prevailing thought is to feed enough alfalfa to provide adequate calcium.


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## billygoatridge (Feb 12, 2004)

I had a jumping buck one year. One of the doelings got bred and had her kid at 9 months old. She did fine . Give her good alfalfa hay or pellets to keep her growing at the same time she's growing kids.


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## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

hoggie said:


> Please can I add a question to this post?
> 
> I have two young girls that I think may have been accidentally bred at about 5 months. I knew that the boys are fertile early so was ready with the "accident prevention" for the nannies. Unfortunately I didn't think about the girls coming into season so young and I believe they were standing to be bred while I was away for a couple of days  Over here we don't breed them for another year but I believe over there you breed in their first year?
> 
> ...


How long ago did they breed? There is a shot (lutalyse?) that you can give them to abort a month after breeding.

I did have two does that kidded at ten months after an "oops" breeding at five. I had seen the third doe get bred, and aborted her, but not these two. Both had twins, and both did fine. One of them was a little splay legged that first year, but has outgrown it.


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## Shazza (Nov 20, 2004)

My 10 mth toggie doe had a huge doe kid last year....my buck must have escaped and then gone back to his paddock as I had no idea she had been bred....till I noticed an udder one day, then a rock hard udder the next....I helped her deliver her huge doe kid the next day. It of course stunted her growth, she is 3/4's the size of her twin sister. 
She delivered twins this year all by herself.


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## CookingPam777 (Oct 16, 2007)

Sorry I was packing for the trip. Thank you all for such helpful responses I think she'll be okay and i'll put her on alfalfa. I am not gonna do the bio tracking thing though. I will just keep a close eye on her. We plan on getting a stethoscope and I am questioning more does being pregnant. Which if the others are would be fantastic because they have not been bred in 5 or more years. I do think getting a stethoscope I will be able to know and be able to prepare. Since I am extremely worried about how she is gonna do when she has it I would like to get it soon so if she is not pregnant I can ease my mind and if she convince myself she will be okay. Which physically I would say she is great I guess it thats number being to low that scares me I don't know. Do have a question though for ya some said if they are 70-80% of their full grown body weight they should be okay at four month old she was as big as she is now. Just always been a big girl so could have technically handled being pregnant then? I would give her a 95% on being her full grown size.


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

KSALguy said:


> why do you wait so long to breed? five months as long as they are i think 70-80% of their adult growth is the best time to get does bred that are going to be working for a liveing, that way their bodys dont get too much fat that wont work off, these are dairy animals right?
> 
> as long as you are feeding good quality hay and not too much grain to make the kids too large they should be fine, if bred at 5 months they will kid at 10ish months and thats perfecet as long as they were kept in good condition,



To be honest, I am not sure why we wait LOL. It is just the way things are done here - I was quite shocked when I first came on here and found that everyone was breeding in the first year - over here that is very frowned upon - if you are brave enough to admitting to it happening in the first place 

OK - so if I cut back on the grain and just give them hay and alfalfa from her eon down they should be OK?

Would have to ask about the abortion thing - does it affect them for future pregnancies?

Thanks

hoggie


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## CookingPam777 (Oct 16, 2007)

hoggie that is really interesting I never knew things were done different in the UK. I figured it was done the same everywhere! Very neat!


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Hoggie with you I would not be listening to a bunch of folks from another continent about how to raise your goats that few to none of us even have access to your breed. Your bloodline seems very fine boned, I also would give them as much time as you can to get that calcium and bone built up before breeding my young does.

Although I breed all my kids to kid on or the next month after their first birthday, I don't recommend new folks on forums getting their basic management down, to do this. Not unless you have a local mentor helping you along with what products to feed, what is fluff etc.

The calcium issue is huge, but so is your copper and iron and molasass. Scewed in any way and you have yearlings who bow their legs permanantly, it doesn't get better. Hypocalcemia, which if you aren't up on your game with your own injectable CMPK in the barn right now, you will loose does as your vet comes and treats them for 'ketosis'.

I know nobody wants to hear do as I say and not what I do...but in this instance just because someone breeding goats for awhile does something, that doesn't mean you should when new. And when there are no photos that go along with the advice, do we know the animals grow up to be well grown? Excellent milkers with extended lactations, so you don't have a doe who only has enough milk for triplets and none for you?

You have to set management with what you are comfortable with. You have to be able to control your bucks if you can't than build a fort knox pen for your young does who simply can't get bred this year.

Pam, all of the above is for you also. I would never keep a 7 month old bred when you aren't planning on it. What is your goal with your goats. She can still be bred this year later into the winter for late spring or summer kids if you need the milk, that extra amount of time will give you a bigger stronger young milker with stronger kids. Sure you can breed 70 pound does, but you can tell the management of the kids isn't up to snuff when they are barely making MINIMUM weight gains of 10 pounds a month, it is minimum. All my March born kids are in the 90's some in the low 100's, that is the difference in why I breed mine early, you don't want a doe kidding as a yearling at 100 pounds unless she is a mini. Vicki


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

Hoggie post pics of the doelings in comparison to the adult does, give as much information on them as you can, besides if its been over a month sence they were bred you cant abort them anyway,


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

besides if its been over a month sence they were bred you cant abort them anyway,
..........................

Why? I kind of doubt you can purchase lute and abort in the UK anyway so the point is likely moot, but lute is a naturally occuring hormone in the goats body. You can't even use it until she is passed implantation which is at least 10 days if not 11. If you use it at anytime in the pregnancy it opens the cervic and aborts the kids, close enough to due date and the kids are viable. I can't even count the number of does we aborted in late term due to the "ketosis" diagnosis of old when in fact it was hypocalcemia that didn't need the kids aborted to save the doe.

Hoggie has Golden Gurnsey's a minor breed by any stretch of the imagination in the USA. In fact I think all the ones in the USA are not even purebred because it's just semen? They would take a different kind of care than our goats here, especially with the hair they carry (more protein like our hair goats) and the fine boned, smaller goat they are. Doing the same=o that the other breeders in her area are doing is exactly the advice she needs, until she gets her sea legs with the breed and goes it alone. Vicki


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

Thank you Vicki.

I know what you mean about looking for advice from another continent - it does seem a bit strange sometimes  But on this one, I thought that maybe because over there you all seem to breed early, you might have the solution to my "accident" 

I have to say that my two little does look tiny to me, but that may just be because their brother is an absolute ox of a goat.

Funny you should mention copper and iron - I am not totally convincecd that I have the copper situation completely under control yet - the boys all show signs of that fish tail, and the kids won't touch the supplements 

I have to confess that in this instance it was't that the bucks weren't under control - I was just too stupid to think about the girls being able to breed so young 

Sounds as though maybe I should speak to the vet about those injections. I have to say I don't feel totally comfortable with the thought of them kidding so young - I hadn't even totally made up my mind I was keeping them yet.

Thank again 

hoggie


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

Sorry - all posting at the same time there.

So I probably won't be able to get the injections needed to abort?

OK - I guess it is sit tight and do the best I can then. 

Drop the grain and up the alfalfa? Hypocalcaemia? Will have to read up on that one. Any other practical thoughts for now.

The two young does that may have been caught are 1/2 British Toggenburg and 1/2 Golden Guernsey. But they are little like the Guernseys although with short coats. I don't know if all that is relevant at all but better to give all the info.

Thanks again

hoggie


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Lutelyse sometimes called estromate. I have a dear friend who I fight with all the time about her Anglo Nubians who I ship stuff to because they simply don't allow some of the common things we use here. Course some of the common things we use here we bootleg in also  I would love to know if you are perscribed this or not. Vicki


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

I've used lute on young does....2cc for $5 is WAY cheaper than vet visit or dead doe.

Be sure not to get any lute on you as a female human.....

I've also seen what breeding too late ()3yo on well bred (too fat) Nubians does to milk production. Its a balancing act to be sure!


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

hoggie said:


> Please can I add a question to this post?
> 
> I have two young girls that I think may have been accidentally bred at about 5 months.
> 
> ...


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

The two young does that may have been caught are 1/2 British Toggenburg and 1/2 Golden Guernsey. But they are little like the Guernseys although with short coats. I don't know if all that is relevant at all but better to give all the info.

Thanks again

hoggie[/QUOTE]


So these are SR level doelings? I have an SR level 1/2 togg:1/2 Guernsey doeling (born in March) that I will be breeding to a GG male in late Nov. She is already well grown out for such and I expect no problems.

What you want to help with copper is some copper sulfate and it can be mixed in the feed or given daily on their tongues- take your finger and wet it, dip in the bag of copper sulfate so the end of your finger is blue, then pop it on their tongue. Your vet may also have access to some injectable chelated minerals that contain copper, but these should be given to an animal before it is bred or used for breeding as they also contain selenium, zinc and manganese. 

What for coccidia in these yonger ones though- some veccoxan (sp?) should help.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Betsy have you read the saanendoah.com info on the use of copper sulfate? In fact if all the copper sulfate already found in grains and mineral mixes don't work, why would more in the water or applied daily to the tongue work better? There are warnings about how hard it is on the rumen also given at amounts like this. Joyce's information on her site comes from thousands of goats. Vicki


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

Oh yes, I've read it. But you see, not all feed mixes that say they contain it, do. At least at levels that do what they are supposed to. Different parts of the country do different things. What works for me in TN may not work for you in TX. Not to mention the sulfur in the water binding what is there making it totally unavailable for use by the animal.

As you know, in UK, they do not have much in the way they can do themsleves, unless it is under the table. I've not heard them talk about bolusing on G-UK ever being available to them. It may be there, but the usual is the Cu sulfate.

Cu sulfate works in PA for Joan, not just for its' antibiotic properties, but for what its' intended purpose is. Bolusing may also not work in NY where the big herd of purebreds are. Injected Cu, Se, Zinc and Manganese works for me, and so does Cu sulfate. Sea kelp also helps. A lot.

GG's are especially noticable becasue their hair coats are so different, like Toggs may also be. It is very obvious when the goat has adequate Cu as their coppery red coats glow with the right combinations of proper nutrition, not to mention the severe softening of the rear pasterns and spread toes when they do not have it from birth. And it is a game I'd rather not play up here in these mountains with everything washed out and having to supply it.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

betsy how do you know a goat has had enough copper? or how much does a 220 pound versus a 100 pound goat need?


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

Hi folks - back again - sorry, I had a bad few days.

Vicki - I haven't yet asked at the vet's but I have searched all my usual sources for stuff and can't find the lutelyse anywhere. I WILL ask the vet but I have a feeling it's not going to happen.

Betsy - yes my Guernseys are the little ones. And the two does are little like the Guernseys, but their triplet brother is HUGE. Their mum is BT and I am a bit worried that their kids might bring forward the BT size.

I have to confess that so far my knowledge of udders is next to non-existent - I just don't have enough to look at and compare LOL

It is interesting to see that you find the copper problems in the GGs over there. My BT and BA don't have any obvious signs of deficiencies, but my billy did hav when I had him, and my GG nanny does. I have a good copper supplement made for horses which I give them (I still need to find out where I stand with milking them while they are getting that) but the kids won't touch it. I have considered balling some up and pushing it down them.

Our biggest problem over here is that you not allowed to sell/buy a product for an animal for which it is not licensed. Because goats are still very "small" here, nobody bothers to licence their products for goats - so you can't buy things. You can buy boluses for cattle but not goats. Vecoxan I bought by fibbing about what animals I was treating - don't know if I will ever be able to get it again. Trodax hich I tried to buy as a preventative against lungworm (the breeder of my GG nanny had one diagnosed with it) I couldn't buy as I made the mistake of saying it was for goats - they refused to sell it to me.

So medication IS a problem.

Thanks again

hoggie


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## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

What is the youngest a doeling can get pregnant? Is it possible at 1 month/5 weeks?


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## oberhaslikid (May 13, 2002)

Jyllie63 said:


> What is the youngest a doeling can get pregnant? Is it possible at 1 month/5 weeks?


I was told a buckling can breed at 2 months a doeling can conceive at 3months


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## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

Maybe she's just fat :shrug: . I noticed some weight gain before I went on vacation and now that I'm back she looks even bigger. I even think I felt a kid in there. She's only 5 months old...but at least she's big for her age. She was a whopper when she was born. My buck escaped when she was 5 weeks old which would put her due the end of November. He also likes to walk along their fenceline and I guess he could have gotten to her that way so it's possible she could be due later. She's not bagging up so I'm still hopeful she's just fat LOL.


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

Copper deficiency is east to tell in color breeds, Toggs, GG's, etc.- by the way the color fades. In Saanens, for examplr, you see 'fish tails', or a split area in the tail hair that looks like a fish's tail does. Also bald noses, ears and really rough coats. Sometimes, when they do not shed out all the way, or really late in the seaon, this is an easy way to tell if copper is needed.

Other ways are single births or not breeding at all.

Usually two weeks after a Multi-Min shot, I see shinier, sleaker coats, ears and noses getting hair again and tail hairs coming back in.


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