# The New Face of Hunger



## Irish Pixie

Please support your local food bank, so many families rely on it.

"Millions of working Americans don’t know where their next meal is coming from. We sent three photographers to explore hunger in three very different parts of the United States, each giving different faces to the same statistic: One-sixth of Americans don’t have enough food to eat."

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/hunger/


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## snowlady

Our daughter applied for and was given a grant to start a food pantry in her college campus. People don’t realize a lot of scholarships don’t include a food program. She also learned that when food service closes over breaks, all students including foreign exchange don’t go home. Her particular college did not have stores within walking distance. Walmart was two bus transfers away.


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## HermitJohn

Its hard to figure exact causes. Much of it has to do with extreme increases in rent without similar percentage increase in wages. Same with other costs like transportation.

Still its hard for me to really grasp having a completely bare cupboard. I am not a proponent of a mostly grain based diet, but I would at least have sack bulk grain, box salt, and a cheap thrift store pressure cooker. Better something to eat than nothing. And in fact maybe not much different than what you can get at food bank, they tend to have lot high carb snacky type stuff. It stores well on the shelf and is cheap.


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## HermitJohn

https://shop.honeyville.com/9-grain-cracked-cereal.html as an example.

Even if you dont have a local "animal feed store" for ultimate cheapness, you can order 50 pound grain for around $45 to $50 plus $9 shipping. 50 pound is lot grain for a month. Lot bang for the buck. Not saying you should live on this unless thats all you can afford, but you wont have an empty belly. And that seems what people are worried about, obviously not superior nutrition. Most food banks dont offer foods providing superior nutrition.

And the cracked or rolled/flaked grain means you dont need a pressure cooker, though if you know how to use it, it does much better job. Way I got to cooking grain back when I could eat grain, before diabetes. I put the trivet in bottom of pressure cooker, put inch water in, then put stainless bowl on the trivet. In the stainless bowl, the grain plus appropriate water. Been too long since I have cooked grain, but think it was two parts water to one part grain. Anyway this double boiler type way made cleanup easy and results were as good as best rice cooker. Far better than open unpressurized pot on top of stove.


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## Irish Pixie

snowlady said:


> Our daughter applied for and was given a grant to start a food pantry in her college campus. People don’t realize a lot of scholarships don’t include a food program. She also learned that when food service closes over breaks, all students including foreign exchange don’t go home. Her particular college did not have stores within walking distance. Walmart was two bus transfers away.


You raised a compassionate, and intelligent woman. Good for her to think of other people and what they experience.


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## Irish Pixie

HermitJohn said:


> https://shop.honeyville.com/9-grain-cracked-cereal.html as an example.
> 
> Even if you dont have a local "animal feed store" for ultimate cheapness, you can order 50 pound grain for around $45 to $50 plus $9 shipping. 50 pound is lot grain for a month. Lot bang for the buck. Not saying you should live on this unless thats all you can afford, but you wont have an empty belly. And that seems what people are worried about, obviously not superior nutrition. Most food banks dont offer foods providing superior nutrition.
> 
> And the cracked or rolled/flaked grain means you dont need a pressure cooker, though if you know how to use it, it does much better job. Way I got to cooking grain back when I could eat grain, before diabetes. I put the trivet in bottom of pressure cooker, put inch water in, then put stainless bowl on the trivet. In the stainless bowl, the grain plus appropriate water. Been too long since I have cooked grain, but think it was two parts water to one part grain. Anyway this double boiler type way made cleanup easy and results were as good as best rice cooker. Far better than open unpressurized pot on top of stove.


So many people don't know how to cook, and many wouldn't have a clue about how to use a pressure cooker. Without Youtubing it, I wouldn't. 

Should people know how to cook? Yes, they should. In a perfect world they would.


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## mnn2501

The new face of hunger(from the article):



> When Meme shows me the family’s food supply, the refrigerator holds takeout boxes and beverages but little fresh food.





> The house has a rickety desktop computer in the living room and a television in most rooms





> Christian pulls into the drive-through and orders a combo of fried gizzards and okra for $8.11. It takes three declined credit cards and an emergency loan from her mother, who lives nearby, before she can pay for it





> She shakes the last seven chicken nuggets onto a battered baking sheet, adds the remnants of a bag of Tater Tots and a couple of hot dogs from the fridge, and slides it all into the oven.


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## HermitJohn

Irish Pixie said:


> So many people don't know how to cook, and many wouldn't have a clue about how to use a pressure cooker. Without Youtubing it, I wouldn't.
> 
> Should people know how to cook? Yes, they should. In a perfect world they would.


No doubt, but hunger would seem to be an incentive to learn, maybe try watching cooking shows on PBS or hit the library. The PBS shows tend to be high end but you can learn basic techniques watching them. Perhaps food pantries should offer basic cooking classes? More useful than just providing endless free snack foods.

I looked for that youtube video that showed me that pan inside pressure cooker method, but couldnt find it. Been several years now. Oh lot videos, but that old survivalist coot showing using a el cheapo thrift store cooker on an obviously el cheapo kitchen range, and how to cook perfect rice in it was pretty cool. As he points out, cheap cookers tend to be thin wall and if you cook directly in them, stuff sticks and PITA to clean. This pan inside cooker using a double boiler type technique eliminates the hot spots and sticking. He was providing info, not trying to get followers or make money. And his technique works great. So much better than any other way short of a high dollar rice cooker. And I would prefer it over the rice cooker given a choice.


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## Irish Pixie

mnn2501 said:


> The new face of hunger(from the article):


Not everyone knows, or has the facilities and utensils/pots and pans etc., to cook from scratch. Should they go hungry for their ignorance?


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## Irish Pixie

HermitJohn said:


> No doubt, but hunger would seem to be an incentive to learn, maybe try watching cooking shows on PBS or hit the library. The PBS shows tend to be high end but you can learn basic techniques watching them. Perhaps food pantries should offer basic cooking classes? More useful than just providing endless free snack foods.
> 
> I looked for that youtube video that showed me that pan inside pressure cooker method, but couldnt find it. Been several years now. Oh lot videos, but that old survivalist coot showing using a el cheapo thrift store cooker on an obviously el cheapo kitchen range, and how to cook perfect rice in it was pretty cool. As he points out, cheap cookers tend to be thin wall and if you cook directly in them, stuff sticks and PITA to clean. This pan inside cooker using a double boiler type technique eliminates the hot spots and sticking. He was providing info, not trying to get followers or make money. And his technique works great. So much better than any other way short of a high dollar rice cooker. And I would prefer it over the rice cooker given a choice.


You are absolutely right, if only we lived in a perfect world...


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## HermitJohn

mnn2501 said:


> The new face of hunger(from the article):


It indeed is hard for me to relate to, but I grew up on a farm and a very different world. Rickety computers and cheap tvs are not a sign of affluence. Look at any thrift store if you want this. 

I still say though if what I am doing isnt working, I am going to try something else. Oh woe is me, doesnt really help. Its not rocket science to learn to cook. You arent going to cook like Julia Child out of the chute, but you LEARN and improve.


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## HermitJohn

Hey nothing new under the sun. Significant people in Europe during WWII starved cause they couldnt wrap their brains around eating grain, they just thought of that as animal food not as a possible food for humans. Hey you cant adapt, you die.

On other hand read of one family in the Japanese-American concentration camps here that figured out they could reach through fence to pick some greens to add to their food providing vitamins that he other families just eating the provided rations lacked.


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## mnn2501

Irish Pixie said:


> Not everyone knows, or has the facilities and utensils/pots and pans etc., to cook from scratch. Should they go hungry for their ignorance?


No they should learn - there are plenty of resources these days to learn, including public libraries which still loan free cook books (along with everything else)


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## Irish Pixie

mnn2501 said:


> No they should learn - there are plenty of resources these days to learn, including public libraries which still loan free cook books (along with everything else)


Sure. If they have access to (and the money to use) transportation to (and from) the library, or even have a library near them.

And I agree, and in a perfect world we'd all know how to cook from scratch.


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## HermitJohn

Irish Pixie said:


> So many people don't know how to cook, and many wouldn't have a clue about how to use a pressure cooker. Without Youtubing it, I wouldn't.
> 
> Should people know how to cook? Yes, they should. In a perfect world they would.


Again you dont need a pressure cooker to cook cracked or rolled grains. You need a pan, you need to put water in the pan, you need to turn on the stove enough to give slow simmer. You need to stir and watch so it doesnt stick and burn. Thats it. I guess if somebody literally cant boil water, they are indeed doomed without a keeper.


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## Irish Pixie

HermitJohn said:


> Again you dont need a pressure cooker to cook cracked or rolled grains. You need a pan, you need to put water in the pan, you need to turn on the stove enough to give slow simmer. You need to stir and watch so it doesnt stick and burn. Thats it. I guess if somebody literally cant boil water, they are indeed doomed without a keeper.


Sure. People should be able to cook from scratch, but many don't. Should they go hungry? Or more importantly, should their kids go hungry?


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## HermitJohn

Hey if you dont have a stove...


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## Fishindude

Hard to imagine people going hungry in this country. I just don't see it here in the midwest. If you don't work or have money they get you a SNAP card which will buy a lot of groceries and school kids get a free breakfast, free lunch and a free backpack full of snacks to take home every weekend. We probably see more obese poor people than skinny, malnourished.

If there are cases where kids are going hungry, I'd bet in many cases it is because the parents are trading their SNAP purchased food items in exchange for drug or alcohol money.


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## Irish Pixie

Fishindude said:


> Hard to imagine people going hungry in this country. I just don't see it here in the midwest. If you don't work or have money they get you a SNAP card which will buy a lot of groceries and school kids get a free breakfast, free lunch and a free backpack full of snacks to take home every weekend. We probably see more obese poor people than skinny, malnourished.
> 
> If there are cases where kids are going hungry, I'd bet in many cases it is because the parents are trading their SNAP purchased food items in exchange for drug or alcohol money.


Did you read the article? What did you think of it?

I agree with you on how many obese (many of them are poor) people, and that's due to cheap food being full of empty calories. People that receive SNAP need to get as much food as they can for the money they receive, and most of the cheap food is not healthy.

I'm curious, if you (collective you) saw a cart full of meat, fish, and fresh veggies and the person paying with SNAP what would you think?


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## coolrunnin

Irish Pixie said:


> Sure. People should be able to cook from scratch, but many don't. Should they go hungry? Or more importantly, should their kids go hungry?


Necessity is the mother of invention. Hungry and want to eat, you will figure out.


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## Irish Pixie

coolrunnin said:


> Necessity is the mother of invention. Hungry and want to eat, you will figure out.


Sure. How about their kids?


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## coolrunnin

Irish Pixie said:


> Sure. How about their kids?


What are you suggesting?
It's their kids, I would think they would want to care for them.


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## HDRider

Irish Pixie said:


> Not everyone knows, or has the facilities and utensils/pots and pans etc., to cook from scratch. Should they go hungry for their ignorance?


Cure the ignorance


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## Miss Kay

My husband was raised on what we called "beans and tators!" You can get dry beans about as cheap as anything and they are healthy. Potatoes are cheap and filling too and you can fix them so many ways. Add some cornbread and you have a complete meal. Not sure if people even do that anymore but it's good food and lots cheaper than frozen nuggets and fast food.


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## HDRider

Miss Kay said:


> My husband was raised on what we called "beans and tators!" You can get dry beans about as cheap as anything and they are healthy. Potatoes are cheap and filling too and you can fix them so many ways. Add some cornbread and you have a complete meal. Not sure if people even do that anymore but it's good food and lots cheaper than frozen nuggets and fast food.


I had corn bread, white beans and fried potatoes almost every dinner growing up. Sometimes we had meat. Mom would add fresh veggies from the summer garden or canned veggies in the winter.

I only eat white beans now maybe 4 times a year. They are great, but only because I let a lot of time pass between having them.


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## HermitJohn

Irish Pixie said:


> Did you read the article? What did you think of it?
> 
> I agree with you on how many obese (many of them are poor) people, and that's due to cheap food being full of empty calories. People that receive SNAP need to get as much food as they can for the money they receive, and most of the cheap food is not healthy.
> 
> I'm curious, if you (collective you) saw a cart full of meat, fish, and fresh veggies and the person paying with SNAP what would you think?


Probably that they were either spending ALL their benefits for the month on a weeks worth groceries, cause frankly people dont get that much in SNAP or that they had given small amount cash for somebody else's whole monthly card worth. somebody wanting cash probably for drugs. Seriously I know what produce costs, it aint cheap. Neither is the ersatz meat raised on grain or factory cow chow and chemicals.

High carb diet will make you fat. It will also long term give you T2 diabetes. Its why I dont recommend a grain diet. Grain is very high carb, its what farmers use to quickly fatten livestock for market. But hunger pangs vs grain, well I will take grain. There are better grains than usual wheat and rice, but who is going to search out millet and buckwheat and pay more when they are low budget starving.

What I have a problem with is assuming the truly hungry are stupid and cant learn. Pretty sure those truly hungry as opposed to lazy are willing to learn. But assuming they are mentally deficient is really not helping. I know there are those that would refuse cooking lessons or foods that have to be cooked. They tend to be the lazy. Some may live with scumbag landlord that doesnt provide a working stove. Offer to fix their stove or give them a hotplate if they have electric or prosecute the landlord. I am sure there are exceptions to everything. But honestly if I am in this position, I am going to be looking for any workaround I can find, not just sitting in front of Walmart with hat upside down begging coins or hitting the food bank.


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## Miss Kay

He'd also have poke salat in the spring and wild game in the winter. Canned goods from the garden came in handy too.


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## HDRider

She means well


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## HDRider

Miss Kay said:


> He'd also have poke salat in the spring and wild game in the winter. Canned goods from the garden came in handy too.


When we first got back here, my wife and I were fiends for polk. We ate and ate and ate, froze it to eat some more. I had missed it horribly.

I have had my fill now.

It was an annual rite of spring for mom and dad to pick that polk. Polk and scrambled eggs was my childhood intro to eggs Florentine.


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## HermitJohn

HDRider said:


> I had corn bread, white beans and fried potatoes almost every dinner growing up. Sometimes we had meat. Mom would add fresh veggies from the summer garden or canned veggies in the winter.
> 
> I only eat white beans now maybe 4 times a year. They are great, but only because I let a lot of time pass between having them.


The trouble with this is that people are not rural anymore. THEY DONT HAVE GARDENS. Not gardens to provide fresh, not gardens to can stuff for winter. You cant raise enough food to be at all meaningful on little tiny balcony most apartments have. Maybe one tomato plant or pot of chives. Degerminated cornbread and beans is not a complete diet. Go to any grocery store and price produce. It aint cheap. Nor is most of it particularly tasty. Even those with small plot for a garden may not have the water to keep it productive. Not everybody lives where there is significant rain during summer.


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## Irish Pixie

HermitJohn said:


> Probably that they were either spending ALL their benefits for the month on a weeks worth groceries, cause frankly people dont get that much in SNAP or that they had given small amount cash for somebody else's whole monthly card worth. somebody wanting cash probably for drugs. Seriously I know what produce costs, it aint cheap. Neither is the ersatz meat raised on grain or factory cow chow and chemicals.
> 
> High carb diet will make you fat. It will also long term give you T2 diabetes. Its why I dont recommend a grain diet. Grain is very high carb, its what farmers use to quickly fatten livestock for market. But hunger pangs vs grain, well I will take grain. There are better grains than usual wheat and rice, but who is going to search out millet and buckwheat and pay more when they are low budget starving.
> 
> What I have a problem with is assuming the truly hungry are stupid and cant learn. Pretty sure those truly hungry as opposed to lazy are willing to learn. But assuming they are mentally deficient is really not helping. I know there are those that would refuse cooking lessons or foods that have to be cooked. They tend to be the lazy. Some may live with scumbag landlord that doesnt provide a working stove. Offer to fix their stove or give them a hotplate if they have electric or prosecute the landlord. I am sure there are exceptions to everything. But honestly if I am in this position, I am going to be looking for any workaround I can find, not just sitting in front of Walmart with hat upside down begging coins or hitting the food bank.


Well, I do donate to a local food bank, and I don't judge people for using it. I don't judge people for doing the easiest thing either, life can be hard. I'm sure your opinion will differ.


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## HDRider

HermitJohn said:


> The trouble with this is that people are not rural anymore. THEY DONT HAVE GARDENS. Not gardens to provide fresh, not gardens to can stuff for winter. You cant raise enough food to be at all meaningful on little tiny balcony most apartments have. Maybe one tomato plant or pot of chives. Degerminated cornbread and beans is not a complete diet. Go to any grocery store and price produce. It aint cheap. Nor is most of it particularly tasty. Even those with small plot for a garden may not have the water to keep it productive. Not everybody lives where there is significant rain during summer.


Maybe some can, and don't.


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## Irish Pixie

HDRider said:


> Cure the ignorance


That is very easy to say. How do you implement curing the ignorance?


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## mnn2501

Irish Pixie said:


> Sure. People should be able to cook from scratch, but many don't. Should they go hungry? Or more importantly, should their kids go hungry?


Yes, they should go hungry - it takes nothing to learn how to cook: ask a neighbor, ask a friend, ask at Church, ask a co-worker, spend a buck and take a bus to the library, just about every poor person in the US has a smart phone, there are videos and recipes all over the internet. Most grocery stores have recipes and some even have classes. Some food shelves have classes too. Catholic Charities will teach someone also, and I'm sure other charities probably have something too.

There is just *NO *excuse in this day and age other than laziness and the fact that people like you insist on the government giving them money while they spend their cash on WANTS instead or NEEDS


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## Irish Pixie

mnn2501 said:


> Yes, they should go hungry - it takes nothing to learn how to cook: ask a neighbor, ask a friend, ask at Church, ask a co-worker, spend a buck and take a bus to the library, just about every poor person in the US has a smart phone, there are videos and recipes all over the internet. Most grocery stores have recipes and some even have classes. Some food shelves have classes too. Catholic Charities will teach someone also, and I'm sure other charities probably have something too.
> 
> There is just *NO *excuse in this day and age other than laziness and the fact that people like you insist on the government giving them money while they spend their cash on WANTS instead or NEEDS


Most food banks have recipes and classes as well. 

I'm happy being a bleeding heart.


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## HDRider

Irish Pixie said:


> That is very easy to say. How do you implement curing the ignorance?


Instead of giving the easy way out.


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## Irish Pixie

HDRider said:


> Instead of giving the easy way out.


*How* do you not give them the easy way out? Remember that the majority of people receiving SNAP have kids. Should kids go hungry for their parent's irresponsibility/ignorance/laziness etc.?


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## mnn2501

Irish Pixie said:


> *How* do you not give them the easy way out? Remember that the majority of people receiving SNAP have kids. Should kids go hungry for their parent's irresponsibility/ignorance/laziness etc.?


YES!!!!, the the kids can be taken away from irresponsible parents and the parents benefits will drop until they learn to be responsible. Stop being a bleeding heart!!


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## snowlady

I asked our local food pantry if they wanted m garden produce. They said no because people refuse to take it. They had even printed up recipes and put them by the veggies but nope.


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## Irish Pixie

mnn2501 said:


> YES!!!!, the the kids can be taken away from irresponsible parents and the parents benefits will drop until they learn to be responsible. Stop being a bleeding heart!!


Nope. I won't. I'll never believe that a kid should suffer for his or her's parents behavior. 

Kids can't be taken away from an irresponsible parent, only from abusive ones. Unless you want to to start a grass roots movement to implement it? Let us know how you're doing, OK?


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## Irish Pixie

snowlady said:


> I asked our local food pantry if they wanted m garden produce. They said no because people refuse to take it. They had even printed up recipes and put them by the veggies but nope.


The one I took eggs and produce to accepted both gladly, and none of it went to waste. The one I donate to know does as well. Does yours have classes?


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## HermitJohn

I have seen disclaimers on cooking sites, that some folk are phobic about the very idea of cooking anything. Well if you are rich go for it, keeps the restaurants and convenience food manufacturers in business. But if you are so stubborn when you are poor that you just rather starve than cook, dont know what I can say. Its like those people during WWII that had a granery full of grain but starved cause they didnt see the grain as food. I mean what can you say, should there be somebody there to hold their hand and cook it for them with all the appropriate spices, etc??? 

you frankly have to experiment and try to expand your knowledge, even without somebody teaching, coaching you. I mean who doesnt know that heat is needed to cook food. Heat needed to boil water. I mean you can cook in a cleaned out tin can, those one gallon cans restaurants get food in are good size for a cook pot. You can make a little temporary stove out of one too. The hobos of early 20th century were well aware you can cook in a tin can over a camp fire if thats what you have. Now in urban areas, you probably get arrested for having a camp fire, but??? Hey they at least probably feed you at the crossbar motel.


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## HDRider

Irish Pixie said:


> *How* do you not give them the easy way out? Remember that the majority of people receiving SNAP have kids. Should kids go hungry for their parent's irresponsibility/ignorance/laziness etc.?


Yes


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## Irish Pixie

HDRider said:


> Yes


I understand. It's very, very easy to make blanket statements, implementing is a very different matter.


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## HermitJohn

You know thinking about it, was talking on another thread that people for long time now (centuries) have considered white bread superior, mostly cause it was seen as a way even the lowest could feel upwardly mobile that they could eat like the aristocrats?

In modern world is this how people feel about convenience and pre-cooked foods? Only the poor cook from scratch?

I honestly dont get it. When you are hungry, food is food.


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## HDRider

Irish Pixie said:


> I understand. It's very, very easy to make blanket statements, implementing is a very different matter.


It is hard. That is why people take the easy way, even if it perpetuates the problem.


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## HermitJohn

Irish Pixie said:


> The one I took eggs and produce to accepted both gladly, and none of it went to waste. The one I donate to know does as well. Does yours have classes?


I will say raw produce requires a sharp knife. Without sharp knife (and cutting board) its really PITA to cut it up. Few people have skill of knife sharpening and even if they buy a new low end knife, it tends to be dull out of package. Though guess you could get a utility knife with replacable blades.... or a hacksaw. Not ideal, but beats a blunt edge tool.


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## Evons hubby

Irish Pixie said:


> Not everyone knows, or has the facilities and utensils/pots and pans etc., to cook from scratch. Should they go hungry for their ignorance?


It might provide incentive to learn.


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## mnn2501

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope. I won't. I'll never believe that a kid should suffer for his or her's parents behavior.
> 
> Kids can't be taken away from an irresponsible parent, only from abusive ones. Unless you want to to start a grass roots movement to implement it? Let us know how you're doing, OK?


Not feeding your kid, starving your kid IS Abuse


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## Irish Pixie

HermitJohn said:


> I will say raw produce requires a sharp knife. Without sharp knife (and cutting board) its really PITA to cut it up. Few people have skill of knife sharpening and even if they buy a new low end knife, it tends to be dull out of package. Though guess you could get a utility knife with replacable blades.... or a hacksaw. Not ideal, but beats a blunt edge tool.


True. When I finally bought decent knives and learned how to sharpen them cooking become much easier. Decent cookware helps too.


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## Irish Pixie

mnn2501 said:


> Not feeding your kid, starving your kid IS Abuse


I agree. That isn't what you said tho.



mnn2501 said:


> YES!!!!, the *the kids can be taken away from irresponsible parents* and the parents benefits will drop until they learn to be responsible. Stop being a bleeding heart!!


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## Evons hubby

Irish Pixie said:


> Did you read the article? What did you think of it?
> 
> I agree with you on how many obese (many of them are poor) people, and that's due to cheap food being full of empty calories. People that receive SNAP need to get as much food as they can for the money they receive, and most of the cheap food is not healthy.
> 
> *I'm curious, if you (collective you) saw a cart full of meat, fish, and fresh veggies and the person paying with SNAP what would you think?*


 my first thought would be... "What's wrong with this picture?", that is not what I usually see snap recipients buying in our area.


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## Evons hubby

HermitJohn said:


> Hey if you dont have a stove...


Outdoor grilling.


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## HDRider

Many incredible food dishes have evolved from poverty and necessity.

Lobster, monkfish, skirt steak, smoked meats, oysters, foie gras, sushi, polenta, cavier, escargot, meat pie, sausage, meatloaf, pasta, lots of soups and stews, menudo, red beans and rice, chitlins, fish and chips and so many dishes came from situations of poverty. Some of these dishes now are far out of reach for poor folks.

We are depriving our poor the creativity arising from necessity. Our intentions might be good, but we all know where that road leads. 

We feed our poor crap and feel good about it.


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## Irish Pixie

The back and forth arguing will get us nowhere. The bottom line is that the US is a first world country. We don't let our citizens go hungry, especially our kids. And there shouldn't be a hungry kid in the US, but there is. 

There will always be people that need help. Period.


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## Irish Pixie

HDRider said:


> Many incredible food dishes have evolved from poverty and necessity.
> 
> Lobster, monkfish, skirt steak, smoked meats, oysters, foie gras, sushi, polenta, cavier, escargot, meat pie, sausage, meatloaf, pasta, lots of soups and stews, menudo, red beans and rice, chitlins, fish and chips and so many dishes came from situations of poverty. Some of these dishes now are far out of reach for poor folks.
> 
> We are depriving our poor the creativity arising from necessity. Our intentions might be good, but we all know where that road leads.
> 
> We feed our poor crap and feel good about it.


We aren't feeding our poor crap, it's the food they can afford and it's filling.


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## HDRider

Irish Pixie said:


> The back and forth arguing will get us nowhere. The bottom line is that the US is a first world country. We don't let our citizens go hungry, especially our kids. And there shouldn't be a hungry kid in the US, but there is.
> 
> There will always be people that need help. Period.


We know you mean well.


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## Irish Pixie

HDRider said:


> We know you mean well.


Why be condescending when I simply have a different opinion than you do? And this is the second time you've said it. I haven't done it to you, and I could.


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## HDRider

Irish Pixie said:


> We aren't feeding our poor crap, it's the food they can afford and it's filling.


We could feed the nation on rice, beans and chicken. Throw in something green and you eating good in the neighborhood. 

*Restaurants that accept EBT include:*

Burger King.
Carl's Jr.
Church's Chicken.
Del Taco.
Denny's.
Domino's Pizza.
Great Steaks.
Jamba Juice.


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## HDRider

Irish Pixie said:


> Why be condescending when I simply have a different opinion than you do? And this is the second time you've said it. I haven't done it to you, and I could.


Sorry if you misunderstood.


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## po boy

Not knowing how to cook isn't a good excuse. Every bag, can or box of food purchased has cooking instructions. An exception would be fresh produce, but I see a lot of free instruction cards for preparing those foods in the produce department.
If a family does not have cooking utensils, we should give those out with food to prepare.
*Needy* should be fed, but feeding everyone is wrong. A local school district quit giving out free breakfast to some and the biggest complaint was parents having to get up earlier to feed their kids. No mention that they couldn't afford to feed their kids.
I grow extra veggies to give away. A couple years ago, I had a lot to give out but knew of no one to give it too. I located the local assisted housing complex, drove through the neighborhood, no one was outside and the office was locked. I went to city hall to see if they knew of a family in need and the answer was no and they would not take the veggies. I drove back to the housing complex and found someone to take it.
WE have tons of food banks here.


----------



## Irish Pixie

HDRider said:


> We could feed the nation on rice, beans and chicken. Throw in something green and you eating good in the neighborhood.
> 
> *Restaurants that accept EBT include:*
> 
> Burger King.
> Carl's Jr.
> Church's Chicken.
> Del Taco.
> Denny's.
> Domino's Pizza.
> Great Steaks.
> Jamba Juice.


Benefits can't be used in restaurants for all recipients. "You cannot use your Electronic Benefits Transfer (EBT) card at restaurants to purchase hot food or food intended for immediate consumption unless your State participates in the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) Restaurant Meals Program (RMP) that serves the *elderly, disabled, and/or homeless*, and you are part of this target population. Generally restaurants are ineligible for authorization to accept SNAP benefits as a form of payment."

https://asktheexpert.custhelp.com/a...urants-with-snap-benefits?-(for-snap-clients)


----------



## Evons hubby

Ten years of free mandatory education?


Irish Pixie said:


> That is very easy to say. How do you implement curing the ignorance?


----------



## HDRider

Irish Pixie said:


> Benefits can't be used in restaurants for all recipients. "You cannot use your Electronic Benefits Transfer (EBT) card at restaurants to purchase hot food or food intended for immediate consumption unless your State participates in the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) Restaurant Meals Program (RMP) that serves the *elderly, disabled, and/or homeless*, and you are part of this target population. Generally restaurants are ineligible for authorization to accept SNAP benefits as a form of payment."
> 
> https://asktheexpert.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5336/~/can-i-buy-food-at-restaurants-with-snap-benefits?-(for-snap-clients)


and yet they take EBT


----------



## Evons hubby

The new face of hunger has chubby little cheeks.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Irish Pixie said:


> Sure. How about their kids?


Yes, they can learn to cook too.



Irish Pixie said:


> Nope. I won't. I'll never believe that a kid should suffer for his or her's parents behavior.


No one said they "should".
But they do.


----------



## Irish Pixie

HDRider said:


> and yet they take EBT


No, not unless your state has a supplemental program for the elderly, the disabled, and the homeless.

ETA: NY has the supplemental program.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Rational discussion is waning, so I'll just leave it to the bickering and generalized statements. 

Thank you to those that gave thought out opinion in your posts. It's appreciated.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Irish Pixie said:


> The back and forth arguing will get us nowhere.


Exactly.



Irish Pixie said:


> Rational discussion is waning, so I'll just leave it to the bickering and generalized statements.


----------



## HermitJohn

Dont know if it does anybody any good, but here is free cookbook for those on SNAP: 

https://cookbooks.leannebrown.com/good-and-cheap.pdf

I think there are several of these kind of cookbooks out there. Even a rickety computer should be able to download it. I didnt look at it very thoroughly so it may or may not be useful or even what it claims. But you have interent you probably have access to every recipe every created, just wont be all bound into one handy book.


----------



## Hiro

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The new face of hunger has chubby little cheeks.


My observations are just anecdotal. I am certain there are folks in this country that are hungry right now. I don't know any. I haven't seen any in a long time. This is (or was 2 years ago, I haven't looked lately) the poorest county in VA. I don't go to the Walmart or grocery store anymore the first week of the month. The aisles aren't wide enough to accommodate my shopping cart and the other patrons burning up their benefits on the boxed mac and cheese and chips/soda. The last 2 weeks of the month there are tumbleweeds blowing down the aisles.

I will propose a radical solution. Drop the soda, chips and other junk foods from EBT eligibility. Use the savings to give a 50% discount to fresh fruits and produce and such. It is doubtful it will work, but it may be worth trying. More radically give a BMI test before you get more free junk food.


----------



## mnn2501

Irish Pixie said:


> There will always be people that need help. Period.


No where near the numbers that bleeding hearts claim. Why do liberals take responsibility away from people? --to keep them dependent on them!


----------



## Lisa in WA

Hiro said:


> My observations are just anecdotal. I am certain there are folks in this country that are hungry right now. I don't know any. I haven't seen any in a long time. This is (or was 2 years ago, I haven't looked lately) the poorest county in VA. I don't go to the Walmart or grocery store anymore the first week of the month. The aisles aren't wide enough to accommodate my shopping cart and the other patrons burning up their benefits on the boxed mac and cheese and chips/soda. The last 2 weeks of the month there are tumbleweeds blowing down the aisles.
> 
> I will propose a radical solution. Drop the soda, chips and other junk foods from EBT eligibility. Use the savings to give a 50% discount to fresh fruits and produce and such. It is doubtful it will work, but it may be worth trying. More radically give a BMI test before you get more free junk food.


I agree about soda, etc. 
it’s not nutritious and EBT should only be used for nutritious food, IMO.


----------



## SLADE

I for one am happy when children are fed. If they do it on my tax dollar that's fine with me. Do I wish they made and where given better choices? YES. I will not be a food NAZI and dictate other peoples eating habits.


----------



## snowlady

There aren’t cooking classes at our local pantry. Probably no resources to do so. There are so many ways to learn to cook, I don’t think that’s an excuse. There are so many programs available no one should be hungry. I can give you produce, SNAP cards, food pantries and food stamps all day but if you can’t make wise choices to take care of your family then that’s on you. Our local school has buddy bags. They send grocery bags of food home for the weekends. I mean, come on! The school feeds the kids 2 meals 5 days a week and the family can’t manage dinner and weekends?


----------



## MO_cows

Irish Pixie said:


> That is very easy to say. How do you implement curing the ignorance?


Well back when food stamps were paper, each book came with a pamphlet of tips and recipes. The magnetic strip card, not so much. 

Perhaps a class on "resource management" should be required when benefits are applied for. One hour and some handouts could go a long way if a person truly wanted a hand up and not a hand out. 

My mom volunteers at Harvesters food bank, and they give out a lot of fresh produce and meats, not just cans and boxes of "heat and eat" food. Can't imagine how much must go to waste.

I am glad the food banks are there and donate, but I don't think for a minute there aren't people taking advantage or undeserving or whatever. It's the same concept as better to let a guilty peson go free than execute the innocent.


----------



## MO_cows

Irish Pixie said:


> *How* do you not give them the easy way out? Remember that the majority of people receiving SNAP have kids. Should kids go hungry for their parent's irresponsibility/ignorance/laziness etc.?


Short term, that could inspire a kid to learn and do better than their parents. Change the course of their life maybe. Long term of course not, malnutrition is not productive.


----------



## Lisa in WA

We donate heavily to our local Women’s Free Restaurant and Community Kitchen. One of the things they do is to teach nutrition, cooking, shopping, budgeting and women can use the kitchens to cook.


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## painterswife

Fair week just ended here. Many 4 h purchases are getting donated directly to the local food banks. They see alot of single parent families and elder singles who lost so much of their savings in 2007 recession. Many of these single parent families are not getting their child support because the other parents keep changing jobs so they can't be tracked down easily.


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## Miss Kay

There is a reason the park has signs reading - Don't feed the bears. If you do they lose all interest in finding food on their own and they become dependent on people. When I get to be queen for a day I will do away with all food stamps except for the elderly and disabled. I'd feed kids 3 meals a day at school and give not one scrap to mom and dad. We have illegals working at the chicken plant because Americans don't want to work. Everywhere I look I see signs saying hiring/interviews yet they can't find people wanting to work. Hunger does a lot for motivation. There is a reason folks were willing to work anywhere doing anything during the depression. It was work or starve.


----------



## painterswife

Miss Kay said:


> There is a reason the park has signs reading - Don't feed the bears. If you do they lose all interest in finding food on their own and they become dependent on people. When I get to be queen for a day I will do away with all food stamps except for the elderly and disabled. I'd feed kids 3 meals a day at school and give not one scrap to mom and dad. We have illegals working at the chicken plant because Americans don't want to work. Everywhere I look I see signs saying hiring/interviews yet they can't find people wanting to work. Hunger does a lot for motivation. There is a reason folks were willing to work anywhere doing anything during the depression. It was work or starve.


How would you feed children three meals a day when they go home at 3 and are don't start going to school until a certain age. There is also holidays and weekend s to think about.


----------



## Evons hubby

Hiro said:


> My observations are just anecdotal. I am certain there are folks in this country that are hungry right now. I don't know any. I haven't seen any in a long time. This is (or was 2 years ago, I haven't looked lately) the poorest county in VA. I don't go to the Walmart or grocery store anymore the first week of the month. The aisles aren't wide enough to accommodate my shopping cart and the other patrons burning up their benefits on the boxed mac and cheese and chips/soda. The last 2 weeks of the month there are tumbleweeds blowing down the aisles.
> 
> I will propose a radical solution. Drop the soda, chips and other junk foods from EBT eligibility. Use the savings to give a 50% discount to fresh fruits and produce and such. It is doubtful it will work, but it may be worth trying. More radically give a BMI test before you get more free junk food.


My comment was based on the photos in the article.


----------



## Shrek

After moving into my first apartment after getting my entry level industry job, chicken and beans and rice were the core of my rations with some garden produce and fish I brought back from visits to my parents farm on weekends until I got my first annual raise and was able to expand my food budget.


----------



## Danaus29

Bring back Home Ec in school and start it in elementary school. We had the 4432 and mulligan stew classes when I was in early elementary. A bit of nutrition and cooking added to health classes would go a long way toward educating children and possibly influencing parents. 

The Mexicans always have shoping carts full of produce, beans, rice, real ingredients and no junk or boxed food. Usually paid for with an EBT card. Preparing meals is a family activity. Somalians also buy ingredients and prepare meals as a family.


----------



## Evons hubby

I learned about nutrition in the elementary grades. Whatever happened to that?


----------



## GTX63

mnn2501 said:


> No where near the numbers that bleeding hearts claim. Why do liberals take responsibility away from people? --to keep them dependent on them!


And...there it is.
When the lid on the box is pulled back just a wee bit, the truth can be seen and it is ugly.
A segment of society that may or may not be suffering, but is of a lower class, income, race, household makeup, etc is viewed by the cake eaters as pitiful and weak and unable to do for themselves.
They bleat how caring they are and virtue signal incessantly proclaiming that the only way to cure their miserable existence is by putting them on a teet. Ignoring the fact that it is extremely difficult to break free from that dependence once it has started, they can now say they "did something", though most care very little about helping them after they are hooked on entitlements.
That isn't help. It has what has eroded families and encouraged the social program addicted to manipulate the system.
Their skillset becomes built around gathering entitlements rather than bettering themselves.
Where are these do gooders when the people they supposedly care about are still stuck years later in the government's programs. Um mmm....
Throwing money at the poor is ironic and a cruel thing, and yet that makes us feel better.

EBT/Snap doesn't provide enough food for each month?
EBT/SNAP encourages empty calories and junk food?
Lol, please.
Creating two more problems by trying to fix one. Not sure how anyone can "feel better" about that.


----------



## GTX63

For every one who receives a government gimme, how many more are stunted in their climb out of dependency on Uncle Sugar?
Yes, you helped someone, while the system you tout pushed 5 others under the water.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

MO_cows said:


> Well back when food stamps were paper, each book came with a *pamphlet of tips* *and recipes*. The magnetic strip card, not so much.


I bet they have all those things at the welfare offices.
There are lots of social service resources available, and no reason to find excuses why they won't work for most people.


----------



## HermitJohn

Hiro said:


> My observations are just anecdotal. I am certain there are folks in this country that are hungry right now. I don't know any. I haven't seen any in a long time. This is (or was 2 years ago, I haven't looked lately) the poorest county in VA. I don't go to the Walmart or grocery store anymore the first week of the month. The aisles aren't wide enough to accommodate my shopping cart and the other patrons burning up their benefits on the boxed mac and cheese and chips/soda. The last 2 weeks of the month there are tumbleweeds blowing down the aisles.
> 
> I will propose a radical solution. Drop the soda, chips and other junk foods from EBT eligibility. Use the savings to give a 50% discount to fresh fruits and produce and such. It is doubtful it will work, but it may be worth trying. More radically give a BMI test before you get more free junk food.


BMI is meaningless when all you have to eat is high carb starchy foods. High carb foods fatten people just like they do hogs for market. Your body will fight you every inch of way if you try to control amount of high carb food to limit calories. Any doc worth their salt will tell you carb counting diets dont work long term, for that very reason.

The WIC program does play food nazi and dictate only what they consider healthy foods. SNAP to be politically palitable is sold a lot as subsidy to food industry, restrict it to healthy and you lose the support from that industry. NOTHING is free from POLITICS.

But I would agree that if you can offer 50% off on produce for the SNAP people, it would be big benefit for those poor folk worried about eating healthy. The grain and thus grain derived "food substances" used in the junk foods is highly subsidized. If those saying the poor dont want produce are correct then such an offer should cost govt very little. Meaning dont try to force anybody to buy produce with SNAP, just offer the discount if they do. Be interesting to find out the truth. 

I mostly buy non starchy produce since the diabetes and I can tell you it is not cheap. Couldnt be done on usual SNAP benefits. I do wonder about those dependent on SNAP and food banks trying to control diabetes with diet. Cheap foods and shelf stable foods are high carb foods.


----------



## HermitJohn

Miss Kay said:


> We have illegals working at the chicken plant because Americans don't want to work. .


No, offer $50 an hour, guaranteed 40 hour a week, and Americans will line up around the block for just about any job. What Americans wont do is hard nasty labor for slave wages. Those companies hire illegals cause they work super cheap and if they complain about conditions or pay, they get deported. Slave labor. Notice after the recent big round up of illegals that the companies arent getting prosecuted for hiring illegals. Those campaign contributions to politicians pay off.


----------



## Miss Kay

So if the pay at the chicken plant (McDonald's etc.) is not enough just stay home and collect government subsidies! I didn't wait on the perfect job. I worked and took care of myself and family until I could get an education and a well paying job. I went to college while taking care of a sick baby but we made it. Cried myself to sleep many a night but I made it and now life is pretty good.


----------



## Evons hubby

HermitJohn said:


> I do wonder about those dependent on SNAP and food banks trying to control diabetes with diet. Cheap foods and shelf stable foods are high carb foods.


snap is not intended to provide your entire food supply. It's supposed to be assistance.


----------



## HDRider

HermitJohn said:


> No, offer $50 an hour, guaranteed 40 hour a week, and Americans will line up around the block for just about any job. What Americans wont do is hard nasty labor for slave wages. Those companies hire illegals cause they work super cheap and if they complain about conditions or pay, they get deported. Slave labor. Notice after the recent big round up of illegals that the companies arent getting prosecuted for hiring illegals. Those campaign contributions to politicians pay off.


I was thinking $60 would do it.


----------



## Evons hubby

HDRider said:


> I was thinking $60 would do it.


Might need to kick it up a notch.... $75 might be better. Afterall it's someone else's money.


----------



## light rain

Irish Pixie said:


> Not everyone knows, or has the facilities and utensils/pots and pans etc., to cook from scratch. Should they go hungry for their ignorance?


Ignorance does not have to be a permanent condition. Include education with limited handouts.

Pots and pans can be bought for pennies at thrift stores.

When I worked as a groundskeeper in No. VA I got into a dumpster and "gleaned" a Revere Ware copper clad big pot. Someone had cooked spaghetti in it and decided it was too much work to clean. 40 years later we are still using that pot to cook noodles, soup, spaghetti and whatever we find tasty.


Fast food dependency does not have to be a permanent choice.

Having 9 children by age 31 seems to be unwise to me... If there is a problem feeding one or two children why add 6 or 7 more to the family? What does the father do to support his offspring?
Abortion no. Birth control yes.


----------



## light rain

Miss Kay said:


> My husband was raised on what we called "beans and tators!" You can get dry beans about as cheap as anything and they are healthy. Potatoes are cheap and filling too and you can fix them so many ways. Add some cornbread and you have a complete meal. Not sure if people even do that anymore but it's good food and lots cheaper than frozen nuggets and fast food.


For a short time this would help people survive a cash shortage and would be much healthier/cheaper than fast food. We love almost any kind of bean! Eggs are a cheap food too. And home-steeped tea with a "little" sugar...

It's all about choices, isn't it?


----------



## light rain

HermitJohn said:


> You know thinking about it, was talking on another thread that people for long time now (centuries) have considered white bread superior, mostly cause it was seen as a way even the lowest could feel upwardly mobile that they could eat like the aristocrats?
> 
> In modern world is this how people feel about convenience and pre-cooked foods? Only the poor cook from scratch?
> 
> I honestly dont get it. When you are hungry, food is food.


People now gain their education/viewpoints from TV advertizing... 
It use to come from long-lived, healthy 80 year olds that taught by example...
Those folks have been replaced by Jimmy Dean and McDonald's ads...


----------



## Evons hubby

I like beans n taters. Especially pinto beans with little chunks of smoked hog jowl. Taters are also good as a basic but need to be dressed up a bit. I like them fried with some onion diced up and in bacon grease, maybe gravy or cream style corn on top. Plain old cold baked taters are good with a bit of butter. Of course tater salad is great stuff.


----------



## GTX63

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Might need to kick it up a notch.... $75 might be better. Afterall it's someone else's money.


That should work. I'm sure there is enough profit built in that those evil corporations wouldn't need to raise prices a dime.
Why, even keep the same work force; maybe hire more!!!


----------



## light rain

Irish Pixie said:


> Rational discussion is waning, so I'll just leave it to the bickering and generalized statements.
> 
> Thank you to those that gave thought out opinion in your posts. It's appreciated.


When someone counters a reply saying "that the reply is not valid and the speaker/s are not acceptable" as qualified participants you're right IP, the discussion is over. 

Surprisingly this tactic has been used to hurt a lot of causes that you champion...


----------



## GTX63

Yvonne's hubby said:


> snap is not intended to provide your entire food supply. It's supposed to be assistance.


Those closeted elitists whose only calluses came from holding up a sign may not have realized that SNAP is an acronym; the first letter defined as "Supplemental." And yes, if need be, one can support themselves and/or their family on a monthly entitlement.
They start by avoiding the 2nd thru 4th row of their local walmart grocery, as well as the back row and the end caps and kiosks.

To label a person or family as so inept they cannot even learn how to cook is to completely insult those who need to believe in themselves.
But for those who abuse their families thru poor diet, starvation and/or lack of education and preparation to survive in this world, there is another government agency that seems to also be the darling of the hi brow- social services polizei.


----------



## GTX63

About 3% of kids/non adults who are enrolled in SNAP are considered underweight. 
The underweight/undernourished numbers for families not enrolled in government assistance, but in similar income brackets is about the same. Hmmm.

In all demographics, obesity among children from 2-19 is about 18.5%. That is the median. 
Blacks and hispanics are up to 22%.
The percentage of obesity among WIC kids aged 2-4 is about 13.9%. It has decreased from almost 16% in 2010. Hmmmm.


----------



## Irish Pixie

light rain said:


> When someone counters a reply saying "that the reply is not valid and the speaker/s are not acceptable" as qualified participants you're right IP, the discussion is over.
> 
> Surprisingly this tactic has been used to hurt a lot of causes that you champion...


Not at all. It's the bickering, the anecdotal BS of "I did it 60 years ago, so everyone can do it now", the blanket statements of "selling SNAP for alcohol and drugs", the statement "irresponsible parents" should have their children taken away, "I lived on beans and cornbread day in and day out my entire childhood". There's no discussion of these statements. When asked how to change what they find so heinous (giving poor people food) there is never a fully workable plan that doesn't force kids to go hungry. I'll never understand what some have against food banks, it's the donors own food, money, time etc. how can anyone complain about that? Yet they do.

And then the subtle, and not so subtle insults start (these are just the two most recent):



GTX63 said:


> Those closeted elitists whose only calluses came from holding up a sign may not have realized that SNAP is an acronym; the first letter defined as "Supplemental." And yes, if need be, one can support themselves and/or their family on a monthly entitlement.
> They start by avoiding the 2nd thru 4th row of their local walmart grocery, as well as the back row and the end caps and kiosks.
> 
> To label a person or family as so inept they cannot even learn how to cook is to completely insult those who need to believe in themselves.
> But for those who abuse their families thru poor diet, starvation and/or lack of education and preparation to survive in this world, there is another government agency that seems to also be the darling of the hi brow- social services polizei.



For those that have faith, how do you reconcile the teachings with the statements in this thread? I realized that many will be going to services shortly, and started thinking about it.


----------



## HDRider

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Might need to kick it up a notch.... $75 might be better. Afterall it's someone else's money.


Why not an even $100?


----------



## HDRider

Irish Pixie said:


> Not at all. It's the bickering, the anecdotal BS of "I did it 60 years ago, so everyone can do it now", the blanket statements of "selling SNAP for alcohol and drugs", the statement "irresponsible parents" should have their children taken away, "I lived on beans and cornbread day in and day out my entire childhood". There's no discussion of these statements. When asked how to change what they find so heinous (giving poor people food) there is never a fully workable plan that doesn't force kids to go hungry. I'll understand what some have against food banks, it's the donors own food, money, time etc. how can anyone complain about that? Yet they do.
> 
> And then the subtle, and not so subtle insults start (these are just the two most recent):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For those that have faith, how do you reconcile the teachings with the statements in this thread? I realized that many will be going to services shortly, and started thinking about it.


Some people put more emphasis on self reliance and personal effort than others.

Some value a hand up, and discourage a hand out.


----------



## whiterock

Long ago, there was a migrant family whose kids went to school where I taught. The father was injured pretty severely and unable to work, big bunch of kids. The migrant director at the school, of hispanic descent, asked the faculty for donations. I went to Walmart and bought 20lbs of pinto beans, 20lbs of rice, Big bag of Masa, salt, pepper, cumin, chili powder, lard, and onions. Other teachers gave money. He took it to the family, said the mother was grateful for the money, but she put her hands on the bags of beans and rice and started crying. The money was one thing, the food was something she could use right then to feel her family. I knew she would be able to cook on a fire in the yard if needed. Transportation to the store was hard for her to come by while tending to kids and husband. These were good people used to making do with little, but they had run out of the little to do with.


----------



## HermitJohn

Yvonne's hubby said:


> snap is not intended to provide your entire food supply. It's supposed to be assistance.


You quoted me wondering how a poor diabetic affords low carb foods to control blood sugar. So you rather pay when the diabetic shows up in emergency room cause he couldnt afford proper diet or insulin. Great short term thinking. But he will never dare have medical problems again, you taught him a lesson. Course thats probably cause he is dead.


----------



## HermitJohn

HDRider said:


> I was thinking $60 would do it.


So you promote breaking the immigration laws so corporations can get workers for nasty jobs for low wages?

Just saying capitalism doesnt guarantee cheap labor. It works or should work both ways, if a job you want to fill doesnt attract anybody wanting to do it for that amount money, you either offer more money or the job doesnt get done. You dont break the law hiring desperate people that sneaked across the border. And if you do, the CEO of the company should spend a minimum of ten years hard time as girlfriend for his cell mate Bubba. Amazing how actual punishment all around changes opinions.


----------



## SLADE

Many of my generation got help getting ahead. Maybe a bit of land a little cash free help. Everyone wants to be the great American working class hero.
I've met many young people today making the same pay for the same job I did 40 years ago.
All this BS reminds me of the lovers that think no one has ever had a love like theirs.
Being a grizzled and haggard old has been does not compensate for the fact the world is changing.
Lets help the young have a planet they can be proud of owning and a life worth living.
LET CHANGE BEGIN WITH ME.


----------



## HermitJohn

GTX63 said:


> That should work. I'm sure there is enough profit built in that those evil corporations wouldn't need to raise prices a dime.
> Why, even keep the same work force; maybe hire more!!!


Uh, you need to go back and redo economics 101. If your buisness plan requires cheap labor to make a profit, and you cant get cheap labor, you have to rework your buisness plan. Simple as that. Capitalism doesnt guarantee you cheap labor.


----------



## GTX63

HDRider said:


> Some people put more emphasis on self reliance and personal effort than others.
> 
> Some value a hand up, and discourage a hand out.


People choose to ignore or misdiagnose the poverty of the soul.
Jesus said we will always have the poor, but He didn't mean to give up on them. Having the government intervene is giving up on them. He intended for folks to get out there and help them yourself. The people whining for something to be done should be the ones who are making a difference.
Lead by example rather than pushing it on someone else.
Being poor, uneducated, abused, neglected, unemployed, or homeless doesn't make you any less of a person, any less equal, than those who decide what is best for you, when their solution is nothing more than a poison pill.
Pushing them into the government welfare cage is giving up on them. No one should be told, in effect, that they cannot make it without someone else doing it for them. Those who do are no less ignorant than those that they harm in the long term.


----------



## HermitJohn

GTX63 said:


> People choose to ignore or misdiagnose the poverty of the soul.
> Jesus said we will always have the poor, but He didn't mean to give up on them. Having the government intervene is giving up on them. He intended for folks to get out there and help them yourself. The people whining for something to be done should be the ones who are making a difference.
> Lead by example rather than pushing it on someone else.
> Being poor, uneducated, abused, neglected, unemployed, or homeless doesn't make you any less of a person, any less equal, than those who decide what is best for you, when their solution is nothing more than a poison pill.
> Pushing them into the government welfare cage is giving up on them. No one should be told, in effect, that they cannot make it without someone else doing it for them. Those who do are no less ignorant than those that they harm in the long term.


Pulling yourself up by your own boot straps doesnt work when you dont have any boots.


----------



## HermitJohn

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I learned about nutrition in the elementary grades. Whatever happened to that?


Did you have the same govt food pyramid chart with dinosaur as a basic food group?


----------



## GTX63

HermitJohn said:


> Pulling yourself up by your own boot straps doesnt work when you dont have any boots.


And that is the great thing about all God's creatures. None of us were born with boots.


----------



## Alder

Hunger in this country springs almost entirely from p-poor life-coping skills, psych damaged people, people who refuse help or to adapt their circumstances (jobs. location, lifestyle). There is plenty of "safety net" out there...besides the wholly possible option of getting a JOB or taking ANOTHER job.

I quit with the story of the lady who couldn't get the kid to eat free breakfast at school. WTH is that? People who can't or won't take help even when served up warm and cozy? Cry me a freeking river. Learn to buy/use food frugally, learn to cook at home. Get your act together. Fer gawd's sake.

Also, NatGeo needs a new web designer. That site is the clunkiest thing I've been referenced to in a looong time.


----------



## SLADE

HermitJohn said:


> Did you have the same govt food pyramid chart with dinosaur as a basic food group?


LOL.


----------



## HermitJohn

GTX63 said:


> And that is the great thing about all God's creatures. None of us were born with boots.


God's creatures besides humans dont have to pay rent or shop at the grocery store.


----------



## Irish Pixie

GTX63 said:


> And that is the great thing about all God's creatures. None of us were born with boots.


Yes, all of us were born naked, and require food to survive. What does the teaching of your faith say about charity and neighbors?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

painterswife said:


> How would you feed children three meals a day when they go home at 3 and are don't start going to school until a certain age. There is also holidays and weekend s to think about.


Pack a bologna sandwich.
This isn't rocket science.
You can have them on weekends.


----------



## GTX63

I give my dog $15 a week. Now at the store, his inclination is to head straight for the ribeyes.
Of course the manager heads straight for him...
Nope, my program qualifies him, at his current age and weight, for $15. If he wants my help, of course I doubt he'll ever be able to provide for himself, since I've provided for his food, housing and occasional stud work his whole life then he'll follow my program.
In short, I own him, and since he doesn't know any different, it is all he wants.
He is a dog.
People shouldn't be treated the same.


----------



## Alder

HermitJohn said:


> God's creatures besides humans dont have to pay rent or shop at the grocery store.


Nope. If those creatures don't HUSTLE all day, every day to fill their bellies and find shelter, they have a VERY bad outcome. Think about it. I have.


----------



## GTX63




----------



## Bearfootfarm

HermitJohn said:


> Pulling yourself up by your own boot straps doesnt work when you dont have any boots.


Then go out and find a way to earn some money for some boots.


----------



## HermitJohn

Bearfootfarm said:


> Then go out and find a way to earn some money for some boots.


Doing what, stomping grapes?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

HermitJohn said:


> Doing what, stomping grapes?


Doing whatever they can find that pays.
Billions of people all over the world do it.


----------



## HermitJohn

GTX63 said:


> I give my dog $15 a week. Now at the store, his inclination is to head straight for the ribeyes.
> Of course the manager heads straight for him...
> Nope, my program qualifies him, at his current age and weight, for $15. If he wants my help, of course I doubt he'll ever be able to provide for himself, since I've provided for his food, housing and occasional stud work his whole life then he'll follow my program.
> In short, I own him, and since he doesn't know any different, it is all he wants.
> He is a dog.
> People shouldn't be treated the same.


Alas the greedy dont like the old program of 40A and a mule so people can be self sufficient without being slaves.


----------



## HermitJohn

Bearfootfarm said:


> Doing whatever they can find that pays.
> Billions of people all over the world do it.


ok, you apply for a construction job barefoot, tell me how that works out..... I have applied for all sorts jobs that dont put my feet in slightest danger but required steel toe boots. So we are back to needing steel toe boots in order to get a job in order to buy steel toe boots.....


----------



## GTX63

Bearfootfarm said:


> Doing whatever they can find that pays.
> Billions of people all over the world do it.


Fortunately I have a nice 100 year old Simmons 4 & 8 quart cider press.
Does a spanking job on grapes and I don't get hit with a pan for leaving grape juice foot prints across the living room floor anymore.
Cheap to own, cheap to operate and all you need is fruit.


----------



## GTX63

Here is a life rule-
0+0=0
Meaning, if you consider yourself to have no skills, tools, redeeming qualities or even clothes, you will never amount to anything. You will remain a zero.
1+0=1
Meaning, it all begins with you.

Folks will always come up with excuses to fail.
Failure is nothing more than the steps to success if you choose, (the operable word) to see it


----------



## Evons hubby

HermitJohn said:


> Uh, you need to go back and redo economics 101. If your buisness plan requires cheap labor to make a profit, and you cant get cheap labor, you have to rework your buisness plan. Simple as that. Capitalism doesnt guarantee you cheap labor.


Nope, but menial labor seems to find workers if those workers aren't being paid a living wage by the socialists for not working.


----------



## Evons hubby

Irish Pixie said:


> Yes, all of us were born naked, and require food to survive. What does the teaching of your faith say about charity and neighbors?


Second Thessalonians 3:2 "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you: that if any would not work, neither should he eat."


----------



## light rain

Irish Pixie said:


> Not at all. It's the bickering, the anecdotal BS of "I did it 60 years ago, so everyone can do it now", the blanket statements of "selling SNAP for alcohol and drugs", the statement "irresponsible parents" should have their children taken away, "I lived on beans and cornbread day in and day out my entire childhood". There's no discussion of these statements. When asked how to change what they find so heinous (giving poor people food) there is never a fully workable plan that doesn't force kids to go hungry. I'll never understand what some have against food banks, it's the donors own food, money, time etc. how can anyone complain about that? Yet they do.
> 
> And then the subtle, and not so subtle insults start (these are just the two most recent):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For those that have faith, how do you reconcile the teachings with the statements in this thread? I realized that many will be going to services shortly, and started thinking about it.




I do not knw how to quote just a line out of a post so this in response to your criticism about people finding ways to survive well on less 60 yrs. ago.

Obviously their lifestyle was successful because here they are commenting on the ways they adapted to hunger and lack of funds. So 50, 60 years ago means a person at an advanced age now trying to participate in a discussion only finding a blatant case of ageism nullifying their opinion. Shameful...


----------



## Evons hubby

HermitJohn said:


> You quoted me wondering how a poor diabetic affords low carb foods to control blood sugar. So you rather pay when the diabetic shows up in emergency room cause he couldnt afford proper diet or insulin. Great short term thinking. But he will never dare have medical problems again, you taught him a lesson. Course thats probably cause he is dead.


He buys what ever foods he requires, usually his snap benefits covers it. If that assistance does not pay the entire bill I suggest he dig into his own funds.


----------



## Evons hubby

HermitJohn said:


> Doing what, stomping grapes?


Or picking them, or pruning the vines, or most anything besides sitting on ones backside whining.


----------



## Evons hubby

HermitJohn said:


> ok, you apply for a construction job barefoot, tell me how that works out..... I have applied for all sorts jobs that dont put my feet in slightest danger but required steel toe boots. So we are back to needing steel toe boots in order to get a job in order to buy steel toe boots.....


There is lots of jobs out there that do not require steel toed boots. Or boots at all!


----------



## Evons hubby

HermitJohn said:


> Alas the greedy dont like the old program of 40A and a mule so people can be self sufficient without being slaves.


The greedy already gave all the good land to people willing to plow with mules. My grandfathers made good use of it. Matter of fact I am still making use of it. Not the same land of course, my brothers and I sold that when our father passed, split up the money 3ways. I was able to pay off my mortgages on 3 rental houses, and buy 2others. Pretty well covers my retirement and my Yvonne's after I pass. Most likely our son will be able to do the same. Sure, I could have bought a new car, a cool boat and hosted lavish parties. I opted to put grandpas 40 acres and mule to work instead. Hopefully my grand and great grands will appreciate my decision.


----------



## light rain

Danaus29 said:


> Bring back Home Ec in school and start it in elementary school. We had the 4432 and mulligan stew classes when I was in early elementary. A bit of nutrition and cooking added to health classes would go a long way toward educating children and possibly influencing parents.
> 
> The Mexicans always have shoping carts full of produce, beans, rice, real ingredients and no junk or boxed food. Usually paid for with an EBT card. Preparing meals is a family activity. Somalians also buy ingredients and prepare meals as a family.


I will take notice when I shop. Maybe it is different in Ohio than in Wisconsin. 
Mexico does have a very high rate of diabetes though. I don't know if that drops when they relocate here...

*With diabetes comes a high incident of chronic kidney disease and failure...


----------



## light rain

Alder said:


> Nope. If those creatures don't HUSTLE all day, every day to fill their bellies and find shelter, they have a VERY bad outcome. Think about it. I have.



And that hustling burns a lot of calories, makes leg muscles stronger and probably improves the immune system and life expectancy...


----------



## red1

Irish Pixie said:


> Please support your local food bank, so many families rely on it.
> 
> "Millions of working Americans don’t know where their next meal is coming from. We sent three photographers to explore hunger in three very different parts of the United States, each giving different faces to the same statistic: One-sixth of Americans don’t have enough food to eat."
> 
> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/hunger/


And its not just in americu...the world is having problems with adequate food supply..And water..25% of the worlds population does not have reliable water supply..And I'm not talking about the areas where its been a problem forever..poor countries and the like..But areas that have never had problems...As the worlds population expands..resources are getting harder and harder to come by..Read that in the paper..


----------



## HDRider

HermitJohn said:


> So you promote breaking the immigration laws so corporations can get workers for nasty jobs for low wages?
> 
> Just saying capitalism doesnt guarantee cheap labor. It works or should work both ways, if a job you want to fill doesnt attract anybody wanting to do it for that amount money, you either offer more money or the job doesnt get done. You dont break the law hiring desperate people that sneaked across the border. And if you do, the CEO of the company should spend a minimum of ten years hard time as girlfriend for his cell mate Bubba. Amazing how actual punishment all around changes opinions.


I think we should have open borders and people from Mexico and all over can come here and work for 50 cents an hour, or maybe less.


----------



## Lisa in WA

light rain said:


> I will take notice when I shop. Maybe it is different in Ohio than in Wisconsin.
> Mexico does have a very high rate of diabetes though. I don't know if that drops when they relocate here...
> 
> *With diabetes comes a high incident of chronic kidney disease and failure...


Mexico has one of the highest intakes of soda so I’ll bet that has something to do with it.
There have been many studies done on the plight of the Pima tribe in southern AZ because of their abnormally high incidences of diabetes. If I recall correctly it was directly linked to their new diet of food that their bodies weren’t accustomed
To. They lived for thousands of years on squash, beans, corn etc. and have not done well on processed food.
Seems like Mexico might have the same problems.

All of the Arizona grocery stores have huge vats of pinto beans and rice in the produce departments. Mexican butchers also typically offervery thin cuts of meats, not the huge steaks that we Americans love. I’d see Mexican families checking out with lots of beans and rice and little meat...lots of leafy greens. Maybe the more traditional diet they evolved to eat.


----------



## light rain

Yvonne's hubby said:


> There is lots of jobs out there that do not require steel toed boots. Or boots at all!


Got my steel toes a couple of years ago in Goodwill. $8.00 I believe. They are sand colored and I think they once belonged to a female soldier stationed in a desert. Fit perfectly. 

I use them when I get the Echo out...
That brand was over $160.00 new.

Whole Foods in the big city a ways from us is paying $15.00 an hour to start, no steel toes req.
* When I think of some of the jobs I had between age 16 to 65 and what I was paid, I shake my head at people complaining... 

In one job I ate cornbread, Welches grape jelly and eggs a couple times a day and HAD to wear a BIG rhinestone American flag every day, like it or not... So gaudy...


----------



## poppy

Irish Pixie said:


> Not everyone knows, or has the facilities and utensils/pots and pans etc., to cook from scratch.* Should they go hungry for their ignorance?*


The answer in one word is "yes". I bet they have mastered the smart phone and cooking is much simpler than that. We're not talking gourmet cooking with lots of ingredients here. A simple frying pan can be bought new for $20. Put it on a heat source, even a portable hot plate, and cook you some eggs for breakfast. It ain't rocket science and will cost you a fraction of the Egg McMuffin. Eggs at the store are generally about 10 cents apiece. Eating 2 eggs every morning, a dozen will provide breakfast for 6 days for about $1.25. Add a toaster when you master the art of plugging things in and push breakfast to a whole new level! A simple box grater often sold in thrift stores will allow you to grate one midsize potato to make hash browns in that same pan. A 5 pound bag of potatoes will feed you for a couple weeks. Add meat as your budget (or food pantry) allows. You will be eating well and without all the garbage added to processed foods. As a bonus, you will probably lose weight and no longer be 50 pounds overweight from eating garbage. Next lessen we will progress to lunch. I'll instruct on how to fry a hamburger in that same pan. A 1/4 pounder should cost you about a buck plus the cost of bread. A 1/4 pounder at McDonald's is almost 5 bucks here. Math is your friend.


----------



## Evons hubby

light rain said:


> Got my steel toes a couple of years ago in Goodwill. $8.00 I believe. They are sand colored and I think they once belonged to a female soldier stationed in a desert. Fit perfectly.
> 
> I use them when I get the Echo out...
> That brand was over $160.00 new.
> 
> Whole Foods in the big city a ways from us is paying $15.00 an hour to start, no steel toes req.
> * When I think of some of the jobs I had between age 16 to 65 and what I was paid, I shake my head at people complaining...
> 
> In one job I ate cornbread, Welches grape jelly and eggs a couple times a day and HAD to wear a BIG rhinestone American flag every day, like it or not... So gaudy...


I could work with the American flag, rhinestones and all.... Not sure I'd wear a rainbow flag. But then my working days are behind me so no worries there!


----------



## HermitJohn

GTX63 said:


> And that is the great thing about all God's creatures. None of us were born with boots.


Some were born with a siver spoon up their rear and million dollar loans from daddy warbucks that they didnt have to repay....


----------



## SLADE

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Second Thessalonians 3:2 "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you: that if any would not work, neither should he eat."


Religion. Not allowed.


----------



## light rain

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I could work with the American flag, rhinestones and all.... Not sure I'd wear a rainbow flag. But then my working days are behind me so no worries there!


It wasn't the flag it was the rhinestones. I am not a "glittery" person...


----------



## HermitJohn

Alder said:


> besides the wholly possible option of getting a JOB or taking ANOTHER job.


And paying more than she earns at her two jobs to hire somebody to take care of her kids. See those darn details. My gosh otherwise generalized straw man arguments would be so easy huh? Money to move yourself and your possessions cross country, money to get apartment in new city that costs more cause there are more and better paying jobs (try getting an apartment in San Francisco or NYC...) Yea they pay well there but still living expenses eat it up. Its not all so simple for the poor when they have no resources to work with. Staying where they are at, they may have family that can help out with some child care for free. Not in some big city with only strangers. Life is not so simple. If you had and easy life and silver spoon hanging out your backside, more power to you, but pretending everybody does is silly.


----------



## light rain

SRSLADE said:


> Religion. Not allowed.



Really?
Will that close the thread?


----------



## light rain

HermitJohn said:


> And paying more than she earns at her two jobs to hire somebody to take care of her kids. See those darn details. My gosh otherwise generalized straw man arguments would be so easy huh? Money to move yourself and your possessions cross country, money to get apartment in new city that costs more cause there are more and better paying jobs (try getting an apartment in San Francisco or NYC...) Yea they pay well there but still living expenses eat it up. Its not all so simple for the poor when they have no resources to work with. Staying where they are at, they may have family that can help out with some child care for free. Not in some big city with only strangers. Life is not so simple. If you had and easy life and silver spoon hanging out your backside, more power to you, but pretending everybody does is silly.



Hermit John I think it IS harder to make a go of it than in the 1950's with the standard American attitude.

It is not harder than in the 1920's or the 1820's or the 1720's.

That is why North America had an influx of people from Europe and other parts of the world in those centuries and WHY everyone outsde our borders is doing their best to get to the USA now. If I was in their shoes I would too.


----------



## light rain

HermitJohn said:


> And paying more than she earns at her two jobs to hire somebody to take care of her kids. See those darn details. My gosh otherwise generalized straw man arguments would be so easy huh? Money to move yourself and your possessions cross country, money to get apartment in new city that costs more cause there are more and better paying jobs (try getting an apartment in San Francisco or NYC...) Yea they pay well there but still living expenses eat it up. Its not all so simple for the poor when they have no resources to work with. Staying where they are at, they may have family that can help out with some child care for free. Not in some big city with only strangers. Life is not so simple. If you had and easy life and silver spoon hanging out your backside, more power to you, but pretending everybody does is silly.


Who in their right mind would move to SF or NYC.
I saw what some people do to seats on the NYC subway in broad daylight.... ICK!


----------



## po boy

SRSLADE said:


> Religion. Not allowed.


It was previously brought up by the op.
Selective outrage?


----------



## HermitJohn

light rain said:


> Hermit John I think it IS harder to make a go of it than in the 1950's with the standard American attitude.
> 
> It is not harder than in the 1920's or the 1820's or the 1720's.
> 
> That is why North America had an influx of people from Europe and other parts of the world in those centuries and WHY everyone outsde our borders is doing their best to get to the USA now. If I was in their shoes I would too.


Depends on your gender and color of your skin. The 50s wasnt a great era for those not white and male.

I would be getting as far from society as I could. I think people were idiots to to move to cities during original industrial revolution. You sell your soul for very meager existance in return and fools chance of making it big. Finding livable remote areas not easy anymore. But this myth you are going to have an easy rich life in city is a big lie. At least in remote area, its mother nature you have your struggles with, not greed and rules to make being poor illegal.


----------



## Lisa in WA

SRSLADE said:


> Religion. Not allowed.


Neither is name calling but that didn’t stop you from calling other posters “food Nazis”.


----------



## IndyDave

snowlady said:


> Our daughter applied for and was given a grant to start a food pantry in her college campus. People don’t realize a lot of scholarships don’t include a food program. She also learned that when food service closes over breaks, all students including foreign exchange don’t go home. Her particular college did not have stores within walking distance. Walmart was two bus transfers away.


I would say something but I cannot manage to improve on the sentiments expressed by Irish Pixie.


----------



## light rain

HermitJohn said:


> Depends on your gender and color of your skin. The 50s wasnt a great era for those not white and male.
> 
> I would be getting as far from society as I could. I think people were idiots to to move to cities during original industrial revolution. You sell your soul for very meager existance in return and fools chance of making it big. Finding livable remote areas not easy anymore. But this myth you are going to have an easy rich life in city is a big lie. At least in remote area, its mother nature you have your struggles with, not greed and rules to make being poor illegal.


Totally agree. If there is ever a drastic water, food or electricity problem the most vunerable will be the old, the young and the disabled. Walking up the street and into a dimly lit hallway to get to my apt. would scare me to death...

*If you respect Mother Nature and prepare for extreme situations "most" of the time things will work out. The odds are in your favor.

If you are walking a deserted street, alone, in a rough neighborhood at night, the odds are not so favorable...

*The 1950's were definitely better for non-white males than the 1850's...


----------



## IndyDave

coolrunnin said:


> Necessity is the mother of invention. Hungry and want to eat, you will figure out.


I see your point and agree in principle to a great extent, but it is also true that many dont know enough to know they dont know. It is a truly alien concept to them. We are seeing a generation of people who dont know raised (or not raised) by another generation of people who dont know, in turn raised by a generation of people who didn't know with the knowledge deficit growing to the point that, again, we are now dealing with people who not only dont know but don't realize that there is anything to be known. They are going to have to be taken in hand and taught much. 

Necessity is indeed a great motivator but it generally can't cause knowledge which isnt there to self-develop.


----------



## HDRider

It is going to be very dark when the lights go out.


----------



## wr

I would be interested in knowing more about US food banks. In my area they are intended to be emergency help and not a lifestyle. 

In order to take advantage of their services, you require identification and proof of family size so the needs of the family can be met but there is also an annual limit as to how many times you can use their service. With the exception of the veterans food bank, which has set their own rules, the limit is three visits a year. 

The food banks carry food, not packaged food or premade food so I would guess that those who don't cook or don't want to cook would still have some problems. 

For a fairly small community, we're pretty well set up to help those in need. Twice a year, the Catholic and United churches work together for a large community thrift sale. A kitchen would be well equipped on less than $5.00 and all the clothing you can shove in a garbage bag for $3.00. They do make provisions for those in need and anybody who is simply shows up the day before the sale opens and they can literally take what they require. 

The money raised is substantial and intended to help both churches further their community projects (meals for shut ins, community kitchens and gardens, direct donations to those in need). The women operate a program that helps teach others to meal plan, purchase groceries and the church kitchens are used to help them turn groceries into meals. The women are happy to take single mothers and their children berry picking or gleaning.


----------



## HDRider

@wr
Ours gives to the same people week after week. The food does need preparation, and some level of cooking skills. 

Honestly it sometimes appears like we are not helping someone help themselves. We are just a free grocery store.


----------



## doc-

> For those that have faith, how do you reconcile the teachings with the statements in this thread? I realized that many will be going to services shortly, and started thinking about it.


"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's...."

The Bible doesn't teach us to let the Govt replace our own philanthropy. That's the hypocrites' way out.


----------



## IndyDave

poppy said:


> The answer in one word is "yes". I bet they have mastered the smart phone and cooking is much simpler than that. We're not talking gourmet cooking with lots of ingredients here. A simple frying pan can be bought new for $20. Put it on a heat source, even a portable hot plate, and cook you some eggs for breakfast. It ain't rocket science and will cost you a fraction of the Egg McMuffin. Eggs at the store are generally about 10 cents apiece. Eating 2 eggs every morning, a dozen will provide breakfast for 6 days for about $1.25. Add a toaster when you master the art of plugging things in and push breakfast to a whole new level! A simple box grater often sold in thrift stores will allow you to grate one midsize potato to make hash browns in that same pan. A 5 pound bag of potatoes will feed you for a couple weeks. Add meat as your budget (or food pantry) allows. You will be eating well and without all the garbage added to processed foods. As a bonus, you will probably lose weight and no longer be 50 pounds overweight from eating garbage. Next lessen we will progress to lunch. I'll instruct on how to fry a hamburger in that same pan. A 1/4 pounder should cost you about a buck plus the cost of bread. A 1/4 pounder at McDonald's is almost 5 bucks here. Math is your friend.





wr said:


> I would be interested in knowing more about US food banks. In my area they are intended to be emergency help and not a lifestyle.
> 
> In order to take advantage of their services, you require identification and proof of family size so the needs of the family can be met but there is also an annual limit as to how many times you can use their service. With the exception of the veterans food bank, which has set their own rules, the limit is three visits a year.
> 
> The food banks carry food, not packaged food or premade food so I would guess that those who don't cook or don't want to cook would still have some problems.
> 
> For a fairly small community, we're pretty well set up to help those in need. Twice a year, the Catholic and United churches work together for a large community thrift sale. A kitchen would be well equipped on less than $5.00 and all the clothing you can shove in a garbage bag for $3.00. They do make provisions for those in need and anybody who is simply shows up the day before the sale opens and they can literally take what they require.
> 
> The money raised is substantial and intended to help both churches further their community projects (meals for shut ins, community kitchens and gardens, direct donations to those in need). The women operate a program that helps teach others to meal plan, purchase groceries and the church kitchens are used to help them turn groceries into meals. The women are happy to take single mothers and their children berry picking or gleaning.


These two posts seem to lead me to the same point. Few problems can be solved by throwing money or food at them. Much truth has been spoken and good questions have been raised.

If I were to start a food bank (which, much as I would like it, isn't going to be happening any time soon) I would make a point of including education in the process. As poppy said, basic cooking isnt rocket science, but it might as well be to someone who has never been taught. I wouldn't be worrying about producing chefs, but most of the people who will turn up will need help with basic cooking and kitchen economics as opposed to being handed a bag of food and sent on their way. It is also a good opportunity to teach the skills needed for the recipients to better themselves in general.


----------



## HermitJohn

light rain said:


> Got my steel toes a couple of years ago in Goodwill. $8.00 I believe. They are sand colored and I think they once belonged to a female soldier stationed in a desert. Fit perfectly.
> 
> I use them when I get the Echo out...
> That brand was over $160.00 new.
> 
> Whole Foods in the big city a ways from us is paying $15.00 an hour to start, no steel toes req.
> * When I think of some of the jobs I had between age 16 to 65 and what I was paid, I shake my head at people complaining...
> 
> In one job I ate cornbread, Welches grape jelly and eggs a couple times a day and HAD to wear a BIG rhinestone American flag every day, like it or not... So gaudy...


How about bare foot since original mention didnt say anything about person having boots or shoes or popbottles with duct tape to hold them on..... Just that they should somehow go out and earn enough to buy shoes. Thats why I suggested grape stomping since this is usually done barefoot.....


----------



## HermitJohn

doc- said:


> "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's...."
> 
> The Bible doesn't teach us to let the Govt replace our own philanthropy. That's the hypocrites' way out.


Usually Ceasar determines what is Ceasar's!


----------



## IndyDave

doc- said:


> "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's...."
> 
> The Bible doesn't teach us to let the Govt replace our own philanthropy. That's the hypocrites' way out.


This point has affected me in a different way. I have come to accept government participation on the grounds that we can't reasonably tell those in need that they are just going to have to put their eating habits on hold until the time when/if those who should be addressing the problem get around to it.


----------



## po boy

@wr
My x brother in law would go to every food bank or any kind of hand out and had more food than he would need in 20 years.
I don't have a problem helping people that are truly needy and it disgust me that we are forced to feel obligated to help anyone regardless of circumstance. Circumstance should be verified and a solution to solve that circumstance, u know get them on their feet.


----------



## whiterock

I believe that most food banks have an overabundance of rice and dry beans, because the recipients don't want or know how to cook them. As to the beans, some may not have the time.


----------



## IndyDave

whiterock said:


> I believe that most food banks have an overabundance of rice and dry beans, because the recipients don't want or know how to cook them. As to the beans, some may not have the time.


Exactly. This is why I believe cooking school should be on session along with handing out food.


----------



## mreynolds

HDRider said:


> @wr
> Ours gives to the same people week after week. The food does need preparation, and some level of cooking skills.
> 
> Honestly it sometimes appears like we are not helping someone help themselves. We are just a free grocery store.


You are helping. My mother gets stuff from the food bank. They have delivered it for years. They often give her way more than she needs because she cans it up and sends it back out to neighbors. They have excess and she gets it. Once she got 20 pounds of bananas. Well, banana bread this week for the neighborhood. 

People in my town [mostly] use it to eat but there are some I know that use the SNAP for money and food bank for food. There are three a week in my town and one a week where my mother is at.


----------



## HermitJohn

I have no problem with feeding somebody that says they are hungry short term. Everybody can get down on their luck or bad life circumstance. Or something like Great Depression where there just wasnt a way to earn any income for many. I dont need to see their income tax return or any of that stuff. They say they are hungry, fine they are hungry. 

But when when they play stupid and claim not to be able to learn to boil water. Thats insulting my intelligence and generosity. Thats the raccoon lifestyle. If they are that stupid they need to be institutionalized cause they are apt to hurt themselves if left to roam free. I am sure there are people that were never taught to cook fine, teach them, but to not be willing to learn is annoying.


----------



## HDRider

mreynolds said:


> You are helping. My mother gets stuff from the food bank. They have delivered it for years. They often give her way more than she needs because she cans it up and sends it back out to neighbors. They have excess and she gets it. Once she got 20 pounds of bananas. Well, banana bread this week for the neighborhood.
> 
> People in my town [mostly] use it to eat but there are some I know that use the SNAP for money and food bank for food. There are three a week in my town and one a week where my mother is at.


Thanks for that. We are a small town, and heavily populated with the aged.


----------



## mreynolds

This will be unpopular but it's how I feel. People are devolving to the point where we have to have something to rely on and others make excuses on why they are correct. Because of this the neighbor say "Aint my problem, they can just go find help elsewhere." 

These days there is either a pill or a government program to fix it.


----------



## HermitJohn

Lisa in WA said:


> Neither is name calling but that didn’t stop you from calling other posters “food Nazis”.


Thats it, no soup for you!


----------



## HDRider

mreynolds said:


> This will be unpopular but it's how I feel. People are devolving to the point where we have to have something to rely on and others make excuses on why they are correct. Because of this the neighbor say "Aint my problem, they can just go find help elsewhere."
> 
> These days there is either a pill or a government program to fix it.


The government has replaced God.


----------



## mreynolds

HDRider said:


> Thanks for that. We are a small town, and heavily populated with the aged.


Hers is too and it gives her something to do. Since she is an older population town also. Often they send her stuff back like eggs and such because she cant do livestock anymore.


----------



## mreynolds

HDRider said:


> The government has replaced God.


To me the government has replaced accountability. Even God tries to hold you accountable.


----------



## HDRider

mreynolds said:


> To me the government has replaced accountability. Even God tries to hold you accountable.


Lessons learned from government are quite different than lessons learned from God


----------



## newfieannie

there shouldn't be anyone going hungry around here. we have food banks, churches, private places offering food and then there's the community food center. grow all their own vegetables summer time. people go in and line up to get that on Friday and every day except sat and sun they can get breakfast lunch and supper. I think Thursday night is reserved for young families.

if they live a little ways from it they can get free bus tickets. biggest people I've seen are in there. maybe it's the pasta and stuff they serve. but they have beans ,hummus etc. stuff I don't even recognize. they can fill their plates as much as they want. lot of stuff donated there. at the end of each Friday they give out the extras like milk etc. if anyone wants to take it home.i took home a couple cartons one time. most people don't bother. also theres a cooking lesson at the end each Friday for whoever wants to stay~Georgia


----------



## HermitJohn

HDRider said:


> The government has replaced God.


In past the government outright declared itself God, or at least claimed a direct mandate from heaven. Enough people believed them so let them rule.


----------



## HermitJohn

newfieannie said:


> there shouldn't be anyone going hungry around here. we have food banks, churches, private places offering food and then there's the community food center. grow all their own vegetables summer time. people go in and line up to get that on Friday and every day except sat and sun they can get breakfast lunch and supper. I think Thursday night is reserved for young families.
> 
> if they live a little ways from it they can get free bus tickets. biggest people I've seen are in there. maybe it's the pasta and stuff they serve. but they have beans ,hummus etc. stuff I don't even recognize. they can fill their plates as much as they want. lot of stuff donated there. at the end of each Friday they give out the extras like milk etc. if anyone wants to take it home.i took home a couple cartons one time. most people don't bother. also theres a cooking lesson at the end each Friday for whoever wants to stay~Georgia


Public transportation? Whats that?


----------



## Shrek

I know of a half dozen or so couples in the city near here here who now have all their groceries delivered mail order and complain that because of the cost of the "fresh" mail order foods and occasional porch pirates that it cuts back their family time because they have to work overtime at their $14 to $18 an hour tech sector jobs to cover food costs and two couples doubt that they will be able to afford to get out of apartment living as soon as they had hoped to. One guy even said getting a house would have to wait until their parents had passed away and left them a house.

Thankfully I know of more who still find time to shop and cook so maybe the mail order everything mindset may not become this century's norm.


----------



## SLADE

Take away the food and you will get to know your country neighbors real well. The cities will be lots of fun a real blast.
The thought of taking food from a child is repugnant in a country that prides itself on it's food abundance.
It's not about food. It's about making those that make bad choices suffer.
This suffering by others makes us feel superior and important.
We almost think we're godly.


----------



## mnn2501

SRSLADE said:


> Religion. Not allowed.


buy your own message board.


----------



## newfieannie

I live in the city so yes, we have buses. but even out in the country they have those centers for food. my son was telling me the other night nobody needs to go hungry out there and I must say people who can give are very generous around here. the grocery stores load them up with food also.


----------



## coolrunnin

IndyDave said:


> I see your point and agree in principle to a great extent, but it is also true that many dont know enough to know they dont know. It is a truly alien concept to them. We are seeing a generation of people who dont know raised (or not raised) by another generation of people who dont know, in turn raised by a generation of people who didn't know with the knowledge deficit growing to the point that, again, we are now dealing with people who not only dont know but don't realize that there is anything to be known. They are going to have to be taken in hand and taught much.
> 
> Necessity is indeed a great motivator but it generally can't cause knowledge which isnt there to self-develop.


Do you honestly believe people lack enough innate intelligence to feed themselves?

I certainly don't.


----------



## GTX63

SRSLADE said:


> This suffering by others makes us feel superior and important.
> We almost think we're godly.


Yes, I think you are beginning to comprehend what has been posted over 10 pages now. 
Using misplaced ideologies in return for self importance and feeling good.


----------



## SLADE

mnn2501 said:


> buy your own message board.


Why? Do you own this one?


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter

The bottom line is that Jesus would feed the poor.


----------



## GTX63

He fed them with fishes and bread, once, and they were full too.


----------



## Redlands Okie

HermitJohn said:


> Alas the greedy dont like the old program of 40A and a mule so people can be self sufficient without being slaves.


If they cannot cook or buy grocery’s on a budget or have the desire to learn to do so then 40 acres and a mule is not going to be any help.


----------



## Redlands Okie

HermitJohn said:


> ok, you apply for a construction job barefoot, tell me how that works out..... I have applied for all sorts jobs that dont put my feet in slightest danger but required steel toe boots. So we are back to needing steel toe boots in order to get a job in order to buy steel toe boots.....


Then apply at a large job. The corporations are required to provide safety gear, including boots. Hard to turn down a free pair of boots by just showing up at the first day of work.


----------



## Redlands Okie

HermitJohn said:


> And paying more than she earns at her two jobs to hire somebody to take care of her kids. See those darn details. My gosh otherwise generalized straw man arguments would be so easy huh? Money to move yourself and your possessions cross country, money to get apartment in new city that costs more cause there are more and better paying jobs (try getting an apartment in San Francisco or NYC...) Yea they pay well there but still living expenses eat it up. Its not all so simple for the poor when they have no resources to work with. Staying where they are at, they may have family that can help out with some child care for free. Not in some big city with only strangers. Life is not so simple. If you had and easy life and silver spoon hanging out your backside, more power to you, but pretending everybody does is silly.


Local faculty here provides free room and board. Single or married couple. Kids or no kids. They do require that you help with chores. They require you to try to get a job everyday. Assistance is provided in this. They do require you and or family to behave. Once a job is obtained they will help with transportation and baby setting. Part of every pay check is REQUIRED to be placed in a savings account. Once funds are achieved for renting a place your moved out. Room for the next. It’s a nice package deal for those that have had life take a bad turn and want to get back on track. Several other organizations provide similar setups. 
Your right life is not simple, or easy. It was never meant to be. Those that assume it should be astonish me.


----------



## poppy

Redlands Okie said:


> If they cannot cook or buy grocery’s on a budget or have the desire to learn to do so then 40 acres and a mule is not going to be any help.


Jesus didn't actually feed them. He had his disciples feed them. He merely provided the food. It was symbolism. Jesus provides the food (Bible) and he expects ministers to feed it to the people. Unfortunately most ministers today feed the people traditions of men instead of God's Word.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> Irish Pixie said: ↑
> Yes, all of us were born naked, and require food to survive. What does the teaching of your faith say about charity and neighbors?


"The Lord helps those who help themselves"


----------



## light rain

whiterock said:


> I believe that most food banks have an overabundance of rice and dry beans, because the recipients don't want or know how to cook them. As to the beans, some may not have the time.



If you are not working 40 to 60 hours a week you have the time. If you are hungry you have the time. Even if you are working a lot of overtime you have the time. Crock pot...
Your first remark was the most honest. Many folks don't want to expend the energy.

*Red lentils from Walmart cost under 1.50 a bag and cook in 5 tom10 minutes. There's 13 servings in a bag and each 1/4 cup dry gives 22 carbs and 8 grams of protein. 4 grams of fiber and no sodium or fat. I know this because we try to keep a supply on hand. No pre-soaking involved.


----------



## light rain

GTX63 said:


> About 3% of kids/non adults who are enrolled in SNAP are considered underweight.
> The underweight/undernourished numbers for families not enrolled in government assistance, but in similar income brackets is about the same. Hmmm.
> 
> In all demographics, obesity among children from 2-19 is about 18.5%. That is the median.
> Blacks and hispanics are up to 22%.
> The percentage of obesity among WIC kids aged 2-4 is about 13.9%. It has decreased from almost 16% in 2010. Hmmmm.



Again, it comes down to choices made by parents...
Obesity kills at every stage of life but especially in those over 50 and sedentary. 50 years of poor choices exact a heavy price...


----------



## Bearfootfarm

HermitJohn said:


> *If* you had and easy life and silver spoon hanging out your backside, more power to you, but *pretending* everybody does is silly.


Maybe if some didn't always base every decision on the *cheapest* solution, companies wouldn't move production to areas that pay less. 

Some seem to be pretending they aren't the real problem.


----------



## whiterock

seems pinto and black eyed peas are the beans of choice in food banks in this area. BEPs cook fairly quickly, some pintos take 3 or 4 hours if they have some age on them. Most food bank beans are of the older variety. Some of the folks I mentioned may not have a crock pot, as inexpensive as they are, and they want something to open can and heat in 5 minutes or less. Don't know that I appreciate the illusion of dishonesty.


----------



## light rain

HermitJohn said:


> Did you have the same govt food pyramid chart with dinosaur as a basic food group?


Hey, if one could kill a dinosaur there would be eating for a LONG time if the hunters cared/were industrious enough to smoke it. Would have to cook it well though, reptiles are laden with salmonella...


----------



## light rain

whiterock said:


> seems pinto and black eyed peas are the beans of choice in food banks in this area. BEPs cook fairly quickly, some pintos take 3 or 4 hours if they have some age on them. Most food bank beans are of the older variety. Some of the folks I mentioned may not have a crock pot, as inexpensive as they are, and they want something to open can and heat in 5 minutes or less. Don't know that I appreciate the illusion of dishonesty.


But do they have a nice cell phone and cigarettes?


----------



## whiterock

Quite possibly, has nothing to do with my post, though,


----------



## light rain

HermitJohn said:


> Doing what, stomping grapes?


Blood donation. Landscaping. Cleaning kennels and horse stalls. Scrapping metal. There are options if one does not feel it beneath them. I've done all except the blood donation for pay. Did it on 9-11 and found out they probably threw it away because they got too much. And I HATE needles...


----------



## light rain

SRSLADE said:


> Take away the food and you will get to know your country neighbors real well. The cities will be lots of fun a real blast.
> The thought of taking food from a child is repugnant in a country that prides itself on it's food abundance.
> It's not about food. It's about making those that make bad choices suffer.
> This suffering by others makes us feel superior and important.
> We almost think we're godly.


And that kind of attitude will succeed in keeping the very people you have concern for in same predictament and probably their offspring too for generations to come.


----------



## light rain

Redlands Okie said:


> Local faculty here provides free room and board. Single or married couple. Kids or no kids. They do require that you help with chores. They require you to try to get a job everyday. Assistance is provided in this. They do require you and or family to behave. Once a job is obtained they will help with transportation and baby setting. Part of every pay check is REQUIRED to be placed in a savings account. Once funds are achieved for renting a place your moved out. Room for the next. It’s a nice package deal for those that have had life take a bad turn and want to get back on track. Several other organizations provide similar setups.
> Your right life is not simple, or easy. It was never meant to be. Those that assume it should be astonish me.


That is a commonsense, kind and hopefully successful approach. Wish more areas used it as a model.


----------



## light rain

whiterock said:


> Quite possibly, has nothing to do with my post, though,


A crockpot at St. Vinny's costs $5.00 dollars. A fancy cell phone a whole lot more. What does a pack of cigarettes cost now? Buget is essential. Choices.


----------



## doozie

I wonder if those against helping out would be the in line for assistance if their own personal unthinkable were to occur.
Should you sell your phone first?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

HermitJohn said:


> How about bare foot since original mention didnt say anything about person having boots or shoes or popbottles with duct tape to hold them on.....


They can go to the Salvation Army or Goodwill and get shoes and clothes.
They don't have to sit around making excuses.

There are multiple resources for those who want to help themselves.


----------



## Evons hubby

doozie said:


> I wonder if those against helping out would be the in line for assistance if their own personal unthinkable were to occur.
> Should you sell your phone first?


I don't know anyone who won't help someone else. I know a lot of people who don't think living off charity should become a lifestyle. I am one of them, and yes I have had my own personal unthinkable happen.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

SRSLADE said:


> This suffering by others makes us feel superior and important.
> We almost think we're godly.


You mean the "virtue signalling"?
If so, I agree.


----------



## doozie

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I don't know anyone who won't help someone else. I know a lot of people who don't think living off charity should become a lifestyle. I am one of them, and yes I have had my own personal unthinkable happen.


I didn't say anything about not helping another, I asked if you'd be in line for help.
If so, would you, for example, sell your phone before accepting it.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

doozie said:


> I wonder if *those against helping out* would be the in line for assistance if their own personal unthinkable were to occur.


No one is "against helping out".
Many are against allowing it to become a lifestyle for those who simply refuse to try.



doozie said:


> I didn't say anything about not helping another


Actually you did:

*



those against helping out

Click to expand...




doozie said:



If so, would you, for example, sell your phone before accepting it.

Click to expand...

*I've never had a phone when I didn't have the money to pay the bill.
I got my first one when I was 15, paid for with money I earned working at my first real job.


----------



## IndyDave

HermitJohn said:


> I have no problem with feeding somebody that says they are hungry short term. Everybody can get down on their luck or bad life circumstance. Or something like Great Depression where there just wasnt a way to earn any income for many. I dont need to see their income tax return or any of that stuff. They say they are hungry, fine they are hungry.
> 
> But when when they play stupid and claim not to be able to learn to boil water. Thats insulting my intelligence and generosity. Thats the raccoon lifestyle. If they are that stupid they need to be institutionalized cause they are apt to hurt themselves if left to roam free. I am sure there are people that were never taught to cook fine, teach them, but to not be willing to learn is annoying.


I will agree in part. I am sure that there are people who consider boiling water or basic food prep to be as alien as a Romulan and scary as the bogeyman. People tend to be intimidated by the unknown even if it turns out to be remarkably simple once they learn. If they make a point of seeing to it that I cant teach them, then I will put it in the basket of stupid games.


----------



## no really

doozie said:


> I didn't say anything about not helping another, I asked if you'd be in line for help.
> If so, would you, for example, sell your phone before accepting it.


If it was to feed my kids, (I don't have any), I can't imagine not selling everything I could get my hands on to take care of them.


----------



## IndyDave

coolrunnin said:


> Do you honestly believe people lack enough innate intelligence to feed themselves?
> 
> I certainly don't.


I have seen it proven out in front of me. I will hold up as an example a teenager who is very special to me. When we first met, she didn't have the knowledge to get past "add water and place in microwave." I have succeeded at teaching her to make pizza from scratch, chicken and dumplings, ham, chicken cordon bleu, and my grandma's sugar cream pie. She still isnt comfortable with some of these unsupervised, but that is a long way from where she started. The criticism properly belongs to the sperm donor who walked out when she was born and the drug-addled waste of space that calls itself her mother. She is doing well now that she has a parent even if she had to go find her own. Some of these people never had that opportunity.


----------



## light rain

doozie said:


> I didn't say anything about not helping another, I asked if you'd be in line for help.
> If so, would you, for example, sell your phone before accepting it.



I would sell my cell phone, (buy a cheapy Trac Phone) Class ring & gold charm my parents gave me and my '72 VW with the sunroof. You do what is legal and ethical to survive until things get better. Also you PRAY for things to get better... That has worked for me...


----------



## doozie

Bearfootfarm said:


> No one is "against helping out".
> Many are against allowing it to become a lifestyle for those who simply refuse to try.
> 
> 
> Actually you did:
> 
> *
> 
> *
> I've never had a phone when I didn't have the money to pay the bill.
> I got my first one when I was 15, paid for with money I earned working at my first real job.





Bearfootfarm said:


> No one is "against helping out".
> Many are against allowing it to become a lifestyle for those who simply refuse to try.
> 
> 
> Actually you did:
> 
> *
> 
> *
> I've never had a phone when I didn't have the money to pay the bill.
> I got my first one when I was 15, paid for with money I earned working at my first real job.


You know, you are right, no one here said they were against helping out... I do wonder how many would take the assistance though.


----------



## HermitJohn

As to selling stuff, sometimes thats counter productive. Sure if for some reason you have latest greatest $1000 phone and you can get $500 out of it, sure. Frankly you had to be really stupid to buy such a phone in first place on low income, since such is usually just to show off and try and impress others.

But if you own a $25 phone and can get $5 out of it and then be without a phone, thats probably just stupid. $5 wont buy you diddly squat in way of food and it will cost you at least $25 to get another phone. Employers like to be able to reach you and in modern world you can get cell plan thats cheaper than landline. No phone probably means no job.

Firesale prices dont generate enough money to make a difference.


----------



## IndyDave

no really said:


> If it was to feed my kids, (I don't have any), I can't imagine not selling everything I could get my hands on to take care of them.


It sounds like we have had a similar start regarding children. I was never married and never had children in the conventional sense. I felt the same way as you. Now that a totally awesome one adopted me, there is nothing I wouldnt do to nurture her and nothing off the table should i need to protect her.


----------



## HermitJohn

IndyDave said:


> I will agree in part. I am sure that there are people who consider boiling water or basic food prep to be as alien as a Romulan and scary as the bogeyman. People tend to be intimidated by the unknown even if it turns out to be remarkably simple once they learn. If they make a point of seeing to it that I cant teach them, then I will put it in the basket of stupid games.


I have run into people with a phobia about cooking, but those people tended to have enough income they could afford to eat out and pay somebody else to cook for them.


----------



## IndyDave

Bearfootfarm said:


> You mean the "virtue signalling"?
> If so, I agree.


It sounded more like the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector praying in the temple to me.


----------



## IndyDave

HermitJohn said:


> I have run into people with a phobia about cooking, but those people tended to have enough income they could afford to eat out and pay somebody else to cook for them.


I am not talking about a fear of cooking per se but rather fear of attempting something about which they know absolutely nothing.


----------



## Evons hubby

doozie said:


> I didn't say anything about not helping another, I asked if you'd be in line for help.
> If so, would you, for example, sell your phone before accepting it.


Never been in line for help. During my lean times never had a phone to sell. Certainly no smart phone.


----------



## HermitJohn

IndyDave said:


> I am not talking about a fear of cooking per se but rather fear of attempting something about which they know absolutely nothing.


People do have fear of experimentation on their own, but that kind person ok with teacher holding their hand and going step by step. Thats why there are schools. Also why I am self taught in lot areas, I dont have fear of failure. If its cheap to experiment, I will experiment. I wont risk lot money on such but I will learn something whether I succeed or fail. Usually dont have to spend much to experiment on something simple like this at home.

i think most people that have true fear of cooking have had one or more bad experiences trying in past. Maybe a parent reading them the riot act for making a mess, who knows. Or a friend or significant other laughing at their efforts.


----------



## doozie

light rain said:


> I would sell my cell phone, (buy a cheapy Trac Phone) Class ring & gold charm my parents gave me and my '72 VW with the sunroof. You do what is legal and ethical to survive until things get better. Also you PRAY for things to get better... That has worked for me...


But, would you accept the assistance?
Before you sold your phone, or only after? 
You asked about "fancy cell phones and cigarettes" 
Why? I'm just wondering.


----------



## IndyDave

HermitJohn said:


> People do have fear of experimentation on their own, but that kind person ok with teacher holding their hand and going step by step. Thats why there are schools. Also why I am self taught in lot areas, I dont have fear of failure. If its cheap to experiment, I will experiment. I wont risk lot money on such but I will learn something whether I succeed or fail. Usually dont have to spend much to experiment on something simple like this at home.
> 
> i think most people that have true fear of cooking have had one or more bad experiences trying in past. Maybe a parent reading them the riot act for making a mess, who knows. Or a friend or significant other laughing at their efforts.


John, it gets worse than that. Most of us here have had enough cumulative life experience to have dealt with unknown quantities. There are far too many among us who have never seen anything useful in nature to use as a foundation.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

IndyDave said:


> It sounded more like the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector praying in the temple to me.


Which part of this relates to any "parable"?:



> SRSLADE said: ↑
> This suffering by others makes us feel superior and important.
> We almost think we're godly.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

doozie said:


> I do wonder how many would take the assistance though.


Most who truly need help will take it, just as most prefer to (and do) provide for themselves.
Anyone who truly wants to work can find something to do.


----------



## wr

light rain said:


> If you are not working 40 to 60 hours a week you have the time. If you are hungry you have the time. Even if you are working a lot of overtime you have the time. Crock pot...
> Your first remark was the most honest. Many folks don't want to expend the energy.
> 
> *Red lentils from Walmart cost under 1.50 a bag and cook in 5 tom10 minutes. There's 13 servings in a bag and each 1/4 cup dry gives 22 carbs and 8 grams of protein. 4 grams of fiber and no sodium or fat. I know this because we try to keep a supply on hand. No pre-soaking involved.


I keep lentils and split peas on hand. When the kid's dad checked out we ate a lot of both. I still fond of lentils but I'll do just about anything avoid split pea soup.


----------



## HermitJohn

Bearfootfarm said:


> Most who truly need help will take it, just as most prefer to (and do) provide for themselves.
> Anyone who truly wants to work can find something to do.


You sell apples on street corner for a penny each and tell me how that works out for you... even if you got the apples free and its all pure profit. I mean it worked for some in the Great Depression... LOL 

Just having any old job that pay isnt in synch to the local costs of living, is meaningless. For all it matters you just well sit on a stump and twiddle your thumbs.


----------



## Forcast

Irish Pixie said:


> Did you read the article? What did you think of it?
> 
> I agree with you on how many obese (many of them are poor) people, and that's due to cheap food being full of empty calories. People that receive SNAP need to get as much food as they can for the money they receive, and most of the cheap food is not healthy.
> 
> I'm curious, if you (collective you) saw a cart full of meat, fish, and fresh veggies and the person paying with SNAP what would you think?


That they would not get much food buying fresh vegs fruit and meats fish no way.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

HermitJohn said:


> You sell apples on street corner for a penny each and tell me how that works out for you.


Your insistence on using ridiculous, unrealistic examples takes away all your credibility.



HermitJohn said:


> Just having any old job that pay isnt in synch to the local costs of living, is *meaningless*.


It's a start.


----------



## Evons hubby

wr said:


> I keep lentils and split peas on hand. When the kid's dad checked out we ate a lot of both. I still fond of lentils but I'll do just about anything avoid split pea soup.


I understand about split pea soup. That stuff could all be donated to the poor for all I care.


----------



## Evons hubby

I'm fairly certain a feller selling apples for a penny each would come out good if he got them delivered for free. I'd buy them from him by the truckload and resell them myself for a nickel each!


----------



## Evons hubby

HermitJohn said:


> You sell apples on street corner for a penny each and tell me how that works out for you... even if you got the apples free and its all pure profit. I mean it worked for some in the Great Depression... LOL
> 
> Just having any old job that pay isnt in synch to the local costs of living, is meaningless. For all it matters you just well sit on a stump and twiddle your thumbs.


Working at anything that pays a wage is better than twiddling ones thumbs. Twiddling burns calories and pays zero, no chance to get ahead. Working, even for low pay puts some money in your pocket. It also gives you a chance to do better.


----------



## light rain

doozie said:


> But, would you accept the assistance?
> Before you sold your phone, or only after?
> You asked about "fancy cell phones and cigarettes"
> Why? I'm just wondering.





Yvonne's hubby said:


> Working at anything that pays a wage is better than twiddling ones thumbs. Twiddling burns calories and pays zero, no chance to get ahead. Working, even for low pay puts some money in your pocket. It also gives you a chance to do better.


It also keeps one busy so as not find trouble to get involved with. When kids had to help on the farm or with their parent's businesses they didn't have time to be "left to their own devices". And if they found they could make money at an early age it gave them incentive to work harder and be inventive.


----------



## light rain

wr said:


> I keep lentils and split peas on hand. When the kid's dad checked out we ate a lot of both. I still fond of lentils but I'll do just about anything avoid split pea soup.


We like both but if you have gout problems some people need to limit their daily intake of beans and dried peas...


----------



## light rain

doozie said:


> But, would you accept the assistance?
> Before you sold your phone, or only after?
> You asked about "fancy cell phones and cigarettes"
> Why? I'm just wondering.


If I had no spouse/partner to share expenses I would accept assistance at either before I sold items or after if I was cold or starving. With the commitment to find a job or a way of legal, ethical income asap.

If I was profoundly disabled I would accept assistance either before or after selling items. 

If I was able to stand and work I would sell easily marketable items and not take assisstance. For example a VW, a class ring, a charm... It was a way to to pay bills, to buy food and pay rent. 

Fancy phones and cigarettes are not necessities. The need to have either is indicative of the problem discussed in this thread. But then you fully understand that anyway, don't you?


----------



## light rain

Forcast said:


> That they would not get much food buying fresh vegs fruit and meats fish no way.


Could you add more to this? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying...


----------



## gilberte

I like split pea soup, especially with the last of the ham.


----------



## HDRider

gilberte said:


> I like split pea soup, especially with the last of the ham.


Me too


----------



## doc-

A coupla points:
-Cooking- How much skill, knowledge & equipment does it take to boil water or fry eggs & hamburger?

-Work-- not all of the indigent are out of work. Many hold jobs that don't pay well enough to afford rent and food to support a family. I know-- "Don't have kids if you can't afford them." But Manure Occurreth and there are families that have trouble making ends meet. They can't be ignored. ….

-The SNAP program is for them.....I hate anecdotes, but-- my uncle who was once well off, went bust in The Big Collapse a decade ago. He's now 80 with some health issues, so work is not an option. His SNAP card allows ~$5/d for food. ….2 eggs, 1/3rdlb of ground meat & a potato provides all the protein he needs and about 2/3rds of the vits & mins he requires each day. That costs ~$1.25. He can blow the other $3.75 on YoHos & DingDongs if he likes. It ain't hard to get adequate nutrition with a SNAP card and minimal cooking skills....Sure, he misses the Chateau Briand and Champagne & Caviar, but beggars can't be choosers.


----------



## Irish Pixie

While I was busy (and then the power went out) there were pages of more bickering, anecdotal "back in the day" stories, more bashing of poor people and what they can afford to eat, more generalized blanket statements, etc. 

Again, thank you for those who posted positive things rather than just bashing the poor.


----------



## Farmerga

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm curious, if you (collective you) saw a cart full of meat, fish, and fresh veggies and the person paying with SNAP what would you think?


I would think that my money is going towards something good. It is when they pay for their food with SNAP then pull out a wad of cash for cigs, beer, junk food, etc, is when I get my dander up.


----------



## mnn2501

SRSLADE said:


> Why? Do you own this one?


This message board does not discriminate against religion - unlike some people who post here.


----------



## TripleD

Farmerga said:


> I would think that my money is going towards something good. It is when they pay for their food with SNAP then pull out a wad of cash for cigs, beer, junk food, etc, is when I get my dander up.


It's when I see that as well as putting three packs of meat back only to keep eight 2 liter drinks.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Farmerga said:


> I would think that my money is going towards something good. It is when they pay for their food with SNAP then pull out a wad of cash for cigs, beer, junk food, etc, is when I get my dander up.


I've seen that more than once.
She was also wearing lots of "bling" and a $300 weave.


----------



## TripleD

Bearfootfarm said:


> I've seen that more than once.
> She was also wearing lots of "bling" and a $300 weave.


Plus a new Mustang but hey her husband makes $25 an hour and they have no children...


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Irish Pixie said:


> Again, thank you for those who posted positive things rather than just bashing the poor.


You're welcome.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

TripleD said:


> Plus a new Mustang


Actually she was driving a fairly new Tahoe, and had $100 worth of fingernails.


----------



## AmericanStand

Did you thank her for doing her good deed ?

Perhaps she was picking up something for the poor guy that she lets live in her gatehouse ?


----------



## light rain

Irish Pixie said:


> While I was busy (and then the power went out) there were pages of more bickering, anecdotal "back in the day" stories, more bashing of poor people and what they can afford to eat, more generalized blanket statements, etc.
> 
> Again, thank you for those who posted positive things rather than just bashing the poor.


IP why is it bickering and bashing the poor when folks disagree with your opinions and enlightening and charitable when folks agree? I think you genuinely care about the poor, I do too. But we have VASTLY different philosophies on how to improve their situation...


----------



## GTX63

Homesteading Today-where folks share their experiences of farming, gardening, raising livestock, self sufficiency, organics and health, diet, recipes, hunting, etc, using methods dating sometimes hundreds if not thousands of years.
What has changed? The world, society, values and morals, yet the methods shared on HT still remain relevant, and they still work.

But do not share you or your elders' old timey ways for lifting yourself up by the bootstraps and survival in the world, because ironically, those methods just aren't relevant today.
Seems I don't know, ironic.


----------



## poppy

mreynolds said:


> This will be unpopular but it's how I feel. People are devolving to the point where we have to have something to rely on and others make excuses on why they are correct. Because of this the neighbor say "Aint my problem, they can just go find help elsewhere."
> 
> These days there is either a pill or a government program to fix it.


And there you have it. Many people, especially the younger generation, have grown up relying on someone else for everything. They are completely unable to cope with anything on their own. They want someone else to solve every issue that comes up in daily life. They need their safe spaces because they cannot deal with anyone who disagrees with them about anything. They see themselves as perpetual victims and demand government pass laws to protect them. Someone else should provide their food, education, healthcare, housing, and everything else. It has become their lifestyle. They would literally die if they had that outlook and lived in many other countries.


----------



## doozie

IP merely suggested supporting your local food bank, and BAM, The answers to everyone's problem appeared,LOL


----------



## Irish Pixie

Farmerga said:


> I would think that my money is going towards something good. It is when they pay for their food with SNAP then pull out a wad of cash for cigs, beer, junk food, etc, is when I get my dander up.


And do you think that buying healthy food will allow them to eat all month? Or will they be at a food bank in a couple weeks? My point is this: a person with limited resources (remember that the majority of people who receive SNAP are employed and have kids) isn't going to be able to eat healthy on what they receive. They are forced to buy high carb low nutrition food that will make them unhealthy. Which leads to more issues.

What gets my dander up is people that blatantly judge others about weaves- how do you know it wasn't a sister/cousin/friend that did it? Ditto on fancy nails, they can be DIY, is that OK? Or cars- who's is it? A friends? family member?

It still shocks me that adults don't realize it's not right to judge other people. Especially don't judge someone who you (collective you) have no clue what is going on in their lives.


----------



## light rain

Throughout this whole thread not one mention of saving for a rainy day, calamities and old age. 

We were not good at it either but we are now putting away some each month. I belive our kids are better at it than ourselves because of witnessing our lack of financial planning. Should have started 40 years ago but did not impose the needed self-discipline to ourselves. 

All 3 of those situations will affect everyone at some point.


----------



## doozie

Irish Pixie said:


> And do you think that buying healthy food will allow them to eat all month? Or will they be at a food bank in a couple weeks? My point is this: a person with limited resources (remember that the majority of people who receive SNAP are employed and have kids) isn't going to be able to eat healthy on what they receive. They are forced to buy high carb low nutrition food that will make them unhealthy. Which leads to more issues.
> 
> What gets my dander up is people that blatantly judge others about weaves- how do you know it wasn't a sister/cousin/friend that did it? Ditto on fancy nails, they can be DIY, is that OK? Or cars- who's is it? A friends? family member?
> 
> It still shocks me that adults don't realize it's not right to judge other people. Especially don't judge someone who you (collective you) have no clue what is going on in their lives.


Yes, it's inconceivable they looked nice for their job interview, wore those nice goodwill clothes when shopping, and checked their cell phone to see if anyone got back to them on their online job application.


----------



## Irish Pixie

doozie said:


> Yes, it's inconceivable they looked nice for their job interview, wore those nice goodwill clothes when shopping, and checked their cell phone to see if anyone got back them on their online job application.


I think many would prefer those on food programs wear rags to shame them.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Irish Pixie said:


> I think many would prefer those on food programs wear rags to shame them.


I saw no one say any such thing.
I saw lots of folks suggesting personal responsibility.
Maybe you could be more specific.


----------



## Fishindude

Irish Pixie said:


> I think many would prefer those on food programs wear rags to shame them.


I do think the change from stamps to credit cards is a bit of a problem. Since so many people today pay with credit cards and debit cards, you can no longer easily identify a SNAP card (food stamp) recipient at the checkout line. The fact that previously they had to dig out stamps to pay was probably a bit humiliating for those that still had some personal pride, so they tried to get their act together and get off the program soon as possible. With the cards, nobody can tell, so no shame and no motivation to change.

Sounds pretty cold I know, but being embarrassed is pretty good motivation to change life habits for many.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Irish Pixie said:


> It still shocks me that adults don't realize *it's not right to judge other people*.


Then don't.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Fishindude said:


> *With the cards, nobody can tell*, so no shame and no motivation to change.


I could tell because in the example I gave she had one cart filled with steaks, lobsters and chicken and another cart filled with beer, wine and dog food. 

She put the meats on the EBT card and pulled out a big wad of cash to pay for the other cart.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Fishindude said:


> I do think the change from stamps to credit cards is a bit of a problem. Since so many people today pay with credit cards and debit cards, you can no longer easily identify a SNAP card (food stamp) recipient at the checkout line. The fact that previously they had to dig out stamps to pay was probably a bit humiliating for those that still had some personal pride, so they tried to get their act together and get off the program soon as possible. With the cards, nobody can tell, so no shame and no motivation to change.
> 
> Sounds pretty cold I know, but being embarrassed is pretty good motivation to change life habits for many.


Perhaps a scarlet letter rather than rags? That way it could be fine tuned to their specific shame. People with cancer on medicaid, the elderly on medicare, people that receive SNAP, etc. everyone has a red letter so they can be identified and humiliated. Is that what your post meant?


----------



## poppy

Irish Pixie said:


> And do you think that buying healthy food will allow them to eat all month? Or will they be at a food bank in a couple weeks? My point is this: a person with limited resources (remember that the majority of people who receive SNAP are employed and have kids) isn't going to be able to eat healthy on what they receive. *They are forced to buy high carb low nutrition food that will make them unhealthy. *Which leads to more issues.
> 
> What gets my dander up is people that blatantly judge others about weaves- how do you know it wasn't a sister/cousin/friend that did it? Ditto on fancy nails, they can be DIY, is that OK? Or cars- who's is it? A friends? family member?
> 
> It still shocks me that adults don't realize it's not right to judge other people. Especially don't judge someone who you (collective you) have no clue what is going on in their lives.


Can you explain exactly who is forcing them to buy high carb low nutrition food? Eggs are cheaper than potato chips and much healthier. A roll of sausage is cheaper a box of cup cakes. They buy garbage because they like it and it requires no preparation.


----------



## SLADE

mnn2501 said:


> This message board does not discriminate against religion - unlike some people who post here.


I know it's open to varied opinions and ideas. This is quite refreshing given some of the post made by some people.


----------



## Irish Pixie

poppy said:


> Can you explain exactly who is forcing them to buy high carb low nutrition food? Eggs are cheaper than potato chips and much healthier. A roll of sausage is cheaper a box of cup cakes. They buy garbage because they like it and it requires no preparation.


OOPS This should have read high carb food (I had low carb) is cheaper than healthy food, that's just fact. A roll of sausage looks like this:
There are are 200 *calories* in a 2 oz cooked serving of *Jimmy Dean* Premium *Pork Hot Sausage*. Calorie breakdown: 79% fat, 2% carbs, 19% protein. And it has a 390 mg of salt.

I have to ask, who are "they" that you refer to? All SNAP recipients?


----------



## SLADE

Irish Pixie said:


> Perhaps a scarlet letter rather than rags? That way it could be fine tuned to their specific shame. People with cancer on medicaid, the elderly on medicare, people that receive SNAP, etc. everyone has a red letter so they can be identified and humiliated. Is that what your post meant?[/QUote
> You have their ideas down to the letter.


----------



## shawnlee

Its perfectly normal to judge others.

Everyone is judged daily from A-Z,...…..

I have noticed one constant, those who are always on about do not judge, usually have some large deficiencies others would judge as a problem and do not wish to correct it.


Feel free to judge me,...it is a checks and balance system,.....if I had no idea I was a Idiot, how could I correct it, unless some kind judging soul informed me of it.


When we all smile and nod, we all become a little more dense as a group, when we judge and say hey,......you are out to lunch, it makes us pause and re evaluate our position.


Character traits of those who say do not judge include, but are not limited to,......resistance to change, a strong belief they are always right, denial, prideful, not the good pride, the vanity type pride, tend to be self centered and have problems in social settings , small changes to the norm tend to be "End of the world" events for them...…….they also tend to make a big deal out of nothing.


So judge often and freely knowing you are helping to better humanity as a whole...…..


----------



## Fishindude

Irish Pixie said:


> Perhaps a scarlet letter rather than rags? That way it could be fine tuned to their specific shame. People with cancer on medicaid, the elderly on medicare, people that receive SNAP, etc. everyone has a red letter so they can be identified and humiliated. Is that what your post meant?


Nope, and I'm pretty sure you know that.
I have no problem with our tax dollars supporting the elderly, seriously ill, handicapped, kids not old enough to work, etc.

But if you want to be blunt ..... I wouldn't be opposed to able bodied young men and women who have been on the program for years with no effort to change their ways, find work, etc. be required to wear a blaze orange jersey with the word FREELOADER on it when they go through the check out line. Sorry, but I don't like my tax dollars going to feed these types.

Food stamps were intended to get you through tough times till you could get back to work and get your feet under you, not a lifelong meal ticket.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Irish Pixie said:


> Low carb food is cheaper than healthy food, that's just fact.


Low carb doesn't equate to "unhealthy".
https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/the-ultimate-list-of-40-low-carb-foods.html


----------



## Irish Pixie

light rain said:


> IP why is it bickering and bashing the poor when folks disagree with your opinions and enlightening and charitable when folks agree? I think you genuinely care about the poor, I do too. But we have VASTLY different philosophies on how to improve their situation...


Bottom line, it's my opinion.


----------



## mreynolds

If the government really cared there would be programs designed for people to get a hand up. Thing is they just want votes.


----------



## painterswife

Most users of the snap program are off the program within 3 years.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Irish Pixie said:


> A body building link, on a SNAP thread. Thank you so much.


The link is about nutrition and healthy low carb foods.
The site is about "body building".
I guess you didn't look or you'd have known that.
But you're welcome anyway. 



> *The Ultimate List Of 40 Low-Carb Foods*
> There's more to low-carb life than chicken and broccoli. This *list of satisfying, fitness-boosting foods* will help keep your carbohydrates (and cravings) in check.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

painterswife said:


> Most users of the snap program are off the program within 3 years.


It would be nice to cut that at least in half.


----------



## mreynolds

I have helped out the homeless shelter. To be admitted you have to me clean. There are other people going through hell trying to rehab there. You have to commit to a job. They will find you one. You get breakfast and super. Be back by 7pm or the door will be locked. Only exception is a late job. About 50 percent are productive after this. 

This works for one reason only in my opinion. People lose confidence in themselves. You have to be able to allow people to be productive. Even if that is volunteer work. People that feel good about themselves are great citizens. They in turn help other people like them. 

This homeless shelter has been here for 50 and recently expanded because of all the volunteers and donations. Most made from former residents.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Fishindude said:


> Nope, and I'm pretty sure you know that.
> I have no problem with our tax dollars supporting the elderly, seriously ill, handicapped, kids not old enough to work, etc.
> 
> But if you want to be blunt ..... I wouldn't be opposed to able bodied young men and women who have been on the program for years with no effort to change their ways, find work, etc. be required to wear a blaze orange jersey with the word FREELOADER on it when they go through the check out line. Sorry, but I don't like my tax dollars going to feed these types.
> 
> Food stamps were intended to get you through tough times till you could get back to work and get your feet under you, not a lifelong meal ticket.


The *majority *of people on SNAP have jobs and have children, or they are elderly, disabled, or homeless. 

I was being facetious with the scarlet letter scenario, but you obviously weren't with humiliating people- "I wouldn't be opposed to able bodied young men and women who have been on the program for years with no effort to change their ways, find work, etc. be required to wear a blaze orange jersey with the word FREELOADER on it when they go through the check out line." 

Shame is shame.


----------



## HermitJohn

poppy said:


> Can you explain exactly who is forcing them to buy high carb low nutrition food? Eggs are cheaper than potato chips and much healthier. A roll of sausage is cheaper a box of cup cakes. They buy garbage because they like it and it requires no preparation.


Pssst....you are paying too much for your cupcakes and potato chips! Seriously!

Also you are comparing apples to oranges (pun intended). Eggs are a raw commodity and require cooking, same with sausage. Cupcakes and potato chips are ready to eat out of the box.

You need to compare eggs and sausage to bag white flour or bag potatoes. Plus the other ingredients to make cupcake or potato chip. Or else look on restaurant menu and compare price for eggs over easy with sausage to serving of cake. All prepared from wholesale ingredients served to you on your plate. In other words comparing prepared food to prepared food.

I mean if you want cheap bakery go buy the stale day old bakery goods from places that specialize in that. Pop say a stale donut in microwave and bingo hot fresh tasting white bread donut. I have no idea what that stuff costs anymore, used to be really cheap. Even cheaper if you bought the even older stuff, too old to sell individually, and stuffed in large garbage bag for $1 as animal feed. I know people used to buy that stuff to feed their chickens and hogs, it was cheaper than buying grain. Unless signs of rodents in it, its same stuff on shelf just little more stale. They pump so many chemicals in it that you never saw any of it mouldy. Friend that bought it would save the best of it and eat it himself after he nuked it. You really couldnt tell much difference from same stuff on grocery store shelf. I didnt buy it cause I frankly never had much of a sweet tooth and I knew fresh or stale it had little nutrition.


----------



## SLADE

painterswife said:


> Most users of the snap program are off the program within 3 years.


There you are, confusing people with those darn facts.


----------



## GTX63

Speaking as one who interacts consistently with both people enrolled and as a former contractor for government agencies involved with such entitlement programs, no, that is not a "fact".
As said earlier, the program tethers people to a level of poverty and does little to zero to help them.
There is no incentive to leave such programs. The incentive was removed during the enrollment.


----------



## HermitJohn

Redlands Okie said:


> If they cannot cook or buy grocery’s on a budget or have the desire to learn to do so then 40 acres and a mule is not going to be any help.


How would you know when they arent offered that option? Perhaps they just dont want to jump on the treadmill and pay high rent for everything, and prefer to live in shack on their own land.


----------



## Farmerga

Irish Pixie said:


> What gets my dander up is people that blatantly judge others about weaves- how do you know it wasn't a sister/cousin/friend that did it? Ditto on fancy nails, they can be DIY, is that OK? Or cars- who's is it? A friends? family member?


Where exactly did I say anything about weaves? Or cars? Or fancy nails? No, I said something about spending MY money on food and spending THEIR money on cigs, beer, junk, etc.. It happens, a lot.


----------



## HermitJohn

Bearfootfarm said:


> Your insistence on using ridiculous, unrealistic examples takes away all your credibility.
> 
> 
> It's a start.


Actually its a NO-start, since you will starve or die of exposure while you are collecting those pennies. Penny doesnt BUY ANYTHING. You can be all honorable and noble about work and moral benifits of a job, but if it dont put roof over your head and food in your belly, its worthless. You would be better off eating those wormy apples than collecting pennies that wont buy anything.


----------



## HermitJohn

Bearfootfarm said:


> and had $100 worth of fingernails.


LOL and you know this because? Do you have your nails done at same salon? Or are you the person that did her nails?


----------



## Redlands Okie

doozie said:


> I wonder if those against helping out would be the in line for assistance if their own personal unthinkable were to occur.
> Should you sell your phone first?


I might be wrong but I get the impression that many are like me. Willing to help those that are trying to help them self’s. Helping someone that has and continue to have these issues from poor choices or lack of effort gets little sympathy from me. 

Occasionally have someone wanting gas money to get to work or doctor, etc. Interesting how often they loose interest when you offer to meet them at the gas station. Some really need help. Some are just playing the game. Hard to tell sometimes.

The phone issue is difficult. One probably needs a phone more than anything else to get a job. Preferably with internet service by wi-if or whatever. Many jobs require applications to be applied online. And your probably not going to get called for a interview if you do not have a phone. When I am hiring some of the things I am looking at is do they have a phone, a valid driver license and a means to get to work. We can teach them the job. Just need to know if they have a basic ability to take care of some responsibilities.


----------



## Farmerga

doozie said:


> I wonder if those against helping out would be the in line for assistance if their own personal unthinkable were to occur.
> Should you sell your phone first?


Begging from Government would be the absolute last effort, on my part. Once I am to that point, I have sold everything that is not a basic necessity of life. And I am not against helping out, but, evidence would indicate that government programs do many things, but, "Help" is not one of them.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Farmerga said:


> Where exactly did I say anything about weaves? Or cars? Or fancy nails? No, I said something about spending MY money on food and spending THEIR money on cigs, beer, junk, etc.. It happens, a lot.


My entire post was not in response to yours. The second paragraph was my opinion on other posts. 

This is in response to the above post, it's not your money being spent, and therefore not your business.


----------



## AmericanStand

I had a recent talk with an employer who is upset because his employees are on food stamps

I pointed out to them there was an easy way to change that ,simply pay them enough they do not qualify.

Their pay scale did not change but their complaining about the employees being on food stamps continues .
Like that employer many of you do not understand food stamps is a subsidy to big business in hiring able bodied people.


----------



## Alder

Irish Pixie said:


> I think many would prefer those on food programs wear rags to shame them.


Whoze shaming now? Whoze judging now? Those fingers point both ways.


----------



## mnn2501

light rain said:


> But do they have a nice cell phone and cigarettes?


and tattoos, and cable TV and game boys and $200 tennis shoes, etc, etc, etc.


----------



## Irish Pixie

mnn2501 said:


> and tattoos, and cable TV and game boys and $200 tennis shoes, etc, etc, etc.


How do you know "they" have all those things?


----------



## mnn2501

doozie said:


> But, would you accept the assistance?
> Before you sold your phone, or only after?
> You asked about "fancy cell phones and cigarettes"
> Why? I'm just wondering.


Most of those we are talking about have been on the public dole all their lives and sometimes generations.


----------



## mnn2501

Irish Pixie said:


> How do you know "they" have all those things?


I've seen it.


----------



## montysky

mnn2501 said:


> and tattoos, and cable TV and game boys and $200 tennis shoes, etc, etc, etc.


...and some of them own NFL football teams


----------



## Irish Pixie

mnn2501 said:


> I've seen it.


You've been in all "their" houses, and know the origin of all "their" stuff? Was it all purchased new and while "they" were receiving SNAP? Were they gifts? Did you see receipts?

It's impressive you can gather all this information about other people, especially when it's none of your business.


----------



## light rain

doozie said:


> Yes, it's inconceivable they looked nice for their job interview, wore those nice goodwill clothes when shopping, and checked their cell phone to see if anyone got back them on their online job application.





doozie said:


> IP merely suggested supporting your local food bank, and BAM, The answers to everyone's problem appeared,LOL





doozie said:


> IP merely suggested supporting your local food bank, and BAM, The answers to everyone's problem appeared,LOL





shawnlee said:


> Its perfectly normal to judge others.
> 
> Everyone is judged daily from A-Z,...…..
> 
> I have noticed one constant, those who are always on about do not judge, usually have some large deficiencies others would judge as a problem and do not wish to correct it.
> 
> 
> Feel free to judge me,...it is a checks and balance system,.....if I had no idea I was a Idiot, how could I correct it, unless some kind judging soul informed me of it.
> 
> 
> When we all smile and nod, we all become a little more dense as a group, when we judge and say hey,......you are out to lunch, it makes us pause and re evaluate our position.
> 
> 
> Character traits of those who say do not judge include, but are not limited to,......resistance to change, a strong belief they are always right, denial, prideful, not the good pride, the vanity type pride, tend to be self centered and have problems in social settings , small changes to the norm tend to be "End of the world" events for them...…….they also tend to make a big deal out of nothing.
> 
> 
> So judge often and freely knowing you are helping to better humanity as a whole...…..



We are expected to search out the truth in all matters. That philosophy is the basis for science, history, math, everything our knowledge depends on. In searching there must be evalution of what we study. That evaluation involves judging what we are studying to be factual. We can argue/discuss 'til the cows come home, it will not change..


----------



## HermitJohn

Irish Pixie said:


> You've been in all "their" houses, and know the origin of all "their" stuff? Was it all purchased new and while "they" were receiving SNAP? Were they gifts? Did you see receipts?
> 
> It's impressive you can gather all this information about other people, especially when it's none of your business.


I think he just pulled down their pants so he could look at their tattoos and piercings. and again if are familiar with prices of such, you must either have had it done or work in such an establishment. I am clueless. Somehow I imagine a $20 tattoo but suspect its more like $200? I am usually too low on current prices by factor of ten for something I havent dealt with. My notion of what something costs is apparently only remembered by other old people. Just like in my head tattooes are anchors and ships and "MOTHER" in a heart. Since drunk sailors on shore leave and circus people were only folk that got them. Guessing thats not what modern people getting tattooes get.


----------



## po boy

mreynolds said:


> I have helped out the homeless shelter. To be admitted you have to me clean. There are other people going through hell trying to rehab there. You have to commit to a job. They will find you one. You get breakfast and super. Be back by 7pm or the door will be locked. Only exception is a late job. About 50 percent are productive after this.
> 
> This works for one reason only in my opinion. People lose confidence in themselves. You have to be able to allow people to be productive. Even if that is volunteer work. People that feel good about themselves are great citizens. They in turn help other people like them.
> 
> This homeless shelter has been here for 50 and recently expanded because of all the volunteers and donations. Most made from former residents.


Sounds like a shelter that I worked with. Breakfast and dinner, no drugs and look for a job.


----------



## mnn2501

Irish Pixie said:


> This is in response to the above post, it's not your money being spent, and therefore not your business.


If they are using the government dole to buy food and then have enough money to spend on foolishness, then it is our business.


----------



## AmericanStand

mnn2501 said:


> If they are using the government dole to buy food and then have enough money to spend on foolishness, then it is our business.


Why is it any of your business what a working man spends his money on? Is it our business what you spend your money on?


----------



## Irish Pixie

mnn2501 said:


> If they are using the government dole to buy food and then have enough money to spend on foolishness, then it is our business.


It's not your money, it's the government's money. If we had a choice where our tax money went, mine would not go to separate families seeking asylum, keeping children in cages, war for profit, but we have no choice once the money leaves our hands. 

Can you answer this please?



Irish Pixie said:


> You've been in all "their" houses, and know the origin of all "their" stuff? Was it all purchased new and while "they" were receiving SNAP? Were they gifts? Did you see receipts?


----------



## AmericanStand

Irish Pixie said:


> If we had a choice where our tax money went, mine would not go to separate families seeking asylum,


 Would you spend it on separating children from human traffickers?


----------



## po boy

Irish Pixie said:


> It's not your money, it's the government's money. If we had a choice where our tax money went, mine would *not go to separate families seeking asylum, keeping children in cages,* war for profit, but we have no choice once the money leaves our hands.
> 
> Can you answer this please?


I tried that in 2015, but no one cared?


----------



## doc-

Irish Pixie said:


> My point is this: a person with limited resources (remember that the majority of people who receive SNAP are employed and have kids) isn't going to be able to eat healthy on what they receive.
> 
> 
> .



FALSE. See my post above. When you start with false assumptions, you're doomed to reach false conclusions.

There are two types of people who make use of the SNAP (or any govt) program: those who are reluctant and want to improve their positions ASAP and get off the program, and those who are gaming the system and come to rely on it. Unfortunately the Liberals (LBJ et al. specifically) who started these programs were not being altruistic, but, rather, power-hungry trying to buy votes with tax payers' money. The concept of Bread & Circuses in return for votes is at least 2100 yrs old.

BTW- the govt has no money of its own. They steal it from citizens under the threat of incarceration by force for failure to comply. Ever read "Robin Hood?" The "rich" = the govt.


----------



## Irish Pixie

po boy said:


> I tried that in 2015, but no one cared?


I'm sorry, what did you try in 2015?


----------



## Irish Pixie

doc- said:


> FALSE. See my post above. When you start with false assumptions, you're doomed to reach false conclusions.
> 
> There are two types of people who make use of the SNAP (or any govt) program: those who are reluctant and want to improve their positions ASAP and get off the program, and those who are gaming the system and come to rely on it. Unfortunately the Liberals (LBJ et al. specifically) who started these programs were not being altruistic, but, rather, power-hungry trying to buy votes with tax payers' money. The concept of Bread & Circuses in return for votes is at least 2100 yrs old.


What post above? 

It's absolutely true in your home state of Wisconsin. Nationally, the figure is a bit lower. 

"WISCONSIN

more than 67% of SNAP participants are in families with children

almost 37% are in families with members who are elderly or have disabilities

*more than 52% are in working families"*

"NATIONALLY

more than 68% of SNAP participants are in families with children

almost 33% are in families with members who are elderly or have disabilities

more than 44% are in working families"'

https://www.cbpp.org/research/food-...-from-snap-state-by-state-fact-sheets#Alabama

I'm fine with the government using my taxes to fund this program.


----------



## GTX63

doc- said:


> BTW- the govt has no money of its own. They steal it from citizens under the threat of incarceration by force for failure to comply. Ever read "Robin Hood?" The "rich" = the govt.


Correct, the government has no money. Even the money it prints up from whole cloth is not theirs.
False assumptions based on pre selected opinions then in search of like minded information has proven in this thread to lead some to simply keep skipping their own record. 
The ones who seem the most ignorant in their opinions are the ones who also seem to have the least experience with entitlement programs, yet they continue on, as if a link or an article will solidify their lack of first hand interaction.
Is this what is meant by country club liberals?


----------



## po boy

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm sorry, what did you try in 2015?


It's bolded in quote of your post.


----------



## Irish Pixie

GTX63 said:


> Correct, the government has no money. Even the money it prints up from whole cloth is not theirs.
> False assumptions based on pre selected opinions then in search of like minded information has proven in this thread to lead some to simply keep skipping their own record.
> The ones who seem the most ignorant in their opinions are the ones who also seem to have the least experience with entitlement programs, yet they continue on, as if a link or an article will solidify their lack of first hand interaction.
> Is this what is meant by country club liberals?


You can't fool me, I know you're referring to me even though you're being all sly...  

I personally don't care what the stats are, I want kids, the elderly, and the disabled fed. Period.


----------



## HDRider

All this talk of gaming the system. And, yes, I do feel entitled to judge other people when the government takes my money by force and enables fraud and misrepresentation of circumstances.

A friend of mine called me the other day to share this story.

He bought a rent house cheap. Got an offer to buy it real fast, so he sold it.

He had a section 8 tenant in the house complaining about trash pickup. I am not sure why my friend felt obligated to help the guy with his trash pickup, but he did.

He meets the couple at the house. They have two kids, not married. They roll up in a new Cadillac Escapade. 

I am sure some here can explain this to me.


----------



## IndyDave

Answer me this: Why do we get so distressed about the poor receiving assistance not living destitute enough for us yet we don't hear near so much angst over countless millions/billions given to people who would consider living like most of us to constitute cruel and unusual punishment?


----------



## HDRider

IndyDave said:


> Answer me this: Why do we get so distressed about the poor receiving assistance not living destitute enough for us yet we don't hear near so much angst over countless millions/billions given to people who would consider living like most of us to constitute cruel and unusual punishment?


Maybe the could drive a Chevy.


----------



## IndyDave

HDRider said:


> Maybe the could drive a Chevy.


That, or keep their nose pickers off of our money.


----------



## Terri

HDRider said:


> All this talk of gaming the system. And, yes, I do feel entitled to judge other people when the government takes my money by force and enables fraud and misrepresentation of circumstances.
> 
> A friend of mine called me the other day to share this story.
> 
> He bought a rent house cheap. Got an offer to buy it real fast, so he sold it.
> 
> He had a section 8 tenant in the house complaining about trash pickup. I am not sure why my friend felt obligated to help the guy with his trash pickup, but he did.
> 
> He meets the couple at the house. They have two kids, not married. They roll up in a new Cadillac Escapade.
> 
> I am sure some here can explain this to me.


My disabled son has a section 8 apartment. To qualify he could not own anything worth more than $2000. This makes me think that the Cadillac is owned by a parent, or they have lied. Take your pick


----------



## Irish Pixie

HDRider said:


> All this talk of gaming the system. And, yes, I do feel entitled to judge other people when the government takes my money by force and enables fraud and misrepresentation of circumstances.
> 
> A friend of mine called me the other day to share this story.
> 
> He bought a rent house cheap. Got an offer to buy it real fast, so he sold it.
> 
> He had a section 8 tenant in the house complaining about trash pickup. I am not sure why my friend felt obligated to help the guy with his trash pickup, but he did.
> 
> He meets the couple at the house. They have two kids, not married. They roll up in a new Cadillac Escapade.
> 
> I am sure some here can explain this to me.


How does the friend know it was their car? Did he see the title/registration? Or is he just guessing? Did they have bling, tats, a weave, nice cell phones, and designer clothes too? 

It's not your money once it leaves your account, it's the government's money. We all have choices, contact your government official and complain. Like I said previously, I don't want mine to got to separate families seeking asylum, keeping children in cages, war for profit, and preventing women's healthcare. There's nothing I can do about that either.


----------



## light rain

doc- said:


> FALSE. See my post above. When you start with false assumptions, you're doomed to reach false conclusions.
> 
> There are two types of people who make use of the SNAP (or any govt) program: those who are reluctant and want to improve their positions ASAP and get off the program, and those who are gaming the system and come to rely on it. Unfortunately the Liberals (LBJ et al. specifically) who started these programs were not being altruistic, but, rather, power-hungry trying to buy votes with tax payers' money. The concept of Bread & Circuses in return for votes is at least 2100 yrs old.
> 
> BTW- the govt has no money of its own. They steal it from citizens under the threat of incarceration by force for failure to comply. Ever read "Robin Hood?" The "rich" = the govt.


And the more money used by the govt. for programs in turn pushes taxes up higher which makes it harder for 1st time buyers to afford house paments or rent. I would not say they "steal" but the govt. definitely won't allow a person to say "I'll pay you when I have the cash". At least not without financial penalties...

I wonder how many folks are flocking to Japan, China or Russia to become citizens? Not as sweet a deal...


----------



## HDRider

Irish Pixie said:


> How does the friend know it was their car? Did he see the title/registration? Or is he just guessing? Did they have bling, tats, a weave, nice cell phones, and designer clothes too?
> 
> It's not your money once it leaves your account, it's the government's money. We all have choices, contact your government official and complain. Like I said previously, I don't want mine to got to separate families seeking asylum, keeping children in cages, war for profit, and preventing women's healthcare. There's nothing I can do about that either.


They are on a lease


----------



## light rain

Terri said:


> My disabled son has a section 8 apartment. To qualify he could not own anything worth more than $2000. This makes me think that the Cadillac is owned by a parent, or they have lied. Take your pick


Or... the there is not enough money or concern to investigate...


----------



## HDRider

Terri said:


> My disabled son has a section 8 apartment. To qualify he could not own anything worth more than $2000. This makes me think that the Cadillac is owned by a parent, or they have lied. Take your pick


Maybe they lease the car.

The house is in his name. She lives there with "their" kids. It was her car


----------



## Terri

light rain said:


> Or... the there is not enough money or concern to investigate...


Possibly so.

To rent a car in modern times you have to cough up a few thousand up front. I do not know about the requirements of that state, but where I live $2000 is not enough of a down payment to lease a new Cadillac


----------



## light rain

HDRider said:


> Maybe they lease the car.
> 
> The house is in his name. She lives there with "their" kids. It was her car


Must be a nice comfortable ride though...


----------



## HermitJohn

HDRider said:


> All this talk of gaming the system. And, yes, I do feel entitled to judge other people when the government takes my money by force and enables fraud and misrepresentation of circumstances.
> 
> A friend of mine called me the other day to share this story.
> 
> He bought a rent house cheap. Got an offer to buy it real fast, so he sold it.
> 
> He had a section 8 tenant in the house complaining about trash pickup. I am not sure why my friend felt obligated to help the guy with his trash pickup, but he did.
> 
> He meets the couple at the house. They have two kids, not married. They roll up in a new Cadillac Escapade.
> 
> I am sure some here can explain this to me.


Probably cause lot times its amazingly easier to get a loan for new car than used one. Go figure. Too much for my brain. I still remember when you could buy a decent $500 car for cash that would last several years if you took care of it. Thats called being thrifty. Loans on any car are not thrifty or smart. Cause you are not only buying a car, you are at same time renting it from the bank.


----------



## Irish Pixie

HDRider said:


> Maybe they lease the car.
> 
> The house is in his name. She lives there with "their" kids. It was her car


The Caddie is leased? How does your friend know that if the house is in the man's name, and the Caddie is in the woman's name? Wouldn't he only have the man's information?


----------



## HDRider

Irish Pixie said:


> The Caddie is leased? How does your friend know that if the house is in the man's name, and the Caddie is in the woman's name? Wouldn't he only have the man's information?


My friend owns the house, thus the lease.

They talked.


----------



## Irish Pixie

HDRider said:


> My friend owns the house, thus the lease.
> 
> They talked.


I see. Thanks.


----------



## SLADE

Section 8. Who pays the rent? Who receives the rent?


----------



## mnn2501

AmericanStand said:


> Why is it any of your business what a working man spends his money on? Is it our business what you spend your money on?


Because you are spending MY money, not yours!


----------



## mnn2501

Irish Pixie said:


> It's not your money, it's the government's money. If we had a choice where our tax money went, mine would not go to separate families seeking asylum, keeping children in cages, war for profit, but we have no choice once the money leaves our hands.
> 
> Can you answer this please?


Would you put children in prison along with their criminal parents?


----------



## mnn2501

SRSLADE said:


> Section 8. Who pays the rent?


The taxpayer.


----------



## Irish Pixie

mnn2501 said:


> Would you put children in prison along with their criminal parents?


That's what you pick out? No rabbit holes of distraction today.


----------



## SLADE

mnn2501 said:


> The taxpayer.


Who receives it?


----------



## mnn2501

SRSLADE said:


> Who receives it?


Someone whose income is too low to pay taxes. ie a NON-taxpayer.


----------



## SLADE

mnn2501 said:


> Someone whose income is too low to pay taxes. ie a NON-taxpayer.


I think you'll find the land lord is making his living off section 8. Our tax dollars.


----------



## Terri

In our state, you have to have less than $2000 to qualify for section 8 and have a very low income to boot. Basically, the landlord provides an apartment in good repair (almost always small and old) and the state pays part of the rent and utilities. This keeps semi-employed people (like my handicapped son) off of the streets, Because, my husband and I are 40 years older than our son, and we will not live forever.


----------



## Irish Pixie

SRSLADE said:


> I think you'll find the land lord is making his living off section 8. Our tax dollars.


And further, the landlord usually won't report anything possibly illegal/unethical about the tenant because he or she would be jeopardizing a guaranteed monthly payment.


----------



## Terri

Irish Pixie said:


> And further, the landlord usually won't report anything possibly illegal/unethical about the tenant because he or she would be jeopardizing a guaranteed monthly payment.


Not where I live! There is about a 2 year wait to get on section 8, and so there would be a new section 8 tenant by the end of the week!


----------



## SLADE

You have to wonder how many landlords on this site receive our tax dollars.


----------



## doozie

.


HDRider said:


> All this talk of gaming the system. And, yes, I do feel entitled to judge other people when the government takes my money by force and enables fraud and misrepresentation of circumstances.
> 
> A friend of mine called me the other day to share this story.
> 
> He bought a rent house cheap. Got an offer to buy it real fast, so he sold it.
> 
> He had a section 8 tenant in the house complaining about trash pickup. I am not sure why my friend felt obligated to help the guy with his trash pickup, but he did.
> 
> He meets the couple at the house. They have two kids, not married. They roll up in a new Cadillac Escapade.
> 
> I am sure some here can explain this to me.


You explained it to us...the guy is the one eligible for the aid, and it's not his car.


----------



## HDRider

doozie said:


> .
> 
> 
> You explained it to us...the guy is the one eligible for the aid, and it's not his car.


Exactly right. She lives for free with her baby daddy, so they can afford the car payment

I don't blame them. I blame the system that leads them to live this way.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

HermitJohn said:


> Actually its a NO-start, since you will starve or die of exposure while you are collecting those pennies.


Again you insist on being totally unrealistic.



HermitJohn said:


> LOL and *you know this because*? Do you have your nails done at same salon? Or are you the person that did her nails?


I know lots of things. 
That doesn't mean I've done them all.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

mnn2501 said:


> Would you put children in prison along with their criminal parents?


I think she'd prefer they all be allowed to roam free and collect welfare.


----------



## blanket

that line of thought is the root of the problem in America, once it leaves your hands it is not yours. The Government is to govern not rule


----------



## Evons hubby

SRSLADE said:


> I think you'll find the land lord is making his living off section 8. Our tax dollars.


The landlord makes money (if he's lucky) from his/her investment. I know this from experience. I don't care where a tenent gets their money as long as they aren't committing crimes to do it. I just hope they pay me on time, and don't destroy my property too much during their stay.


----------



## Evons hubby

SRSLADE said:


> You have to wonder how many landlords on this site receive our tax dollars.


I've been a landlord for twenty years, never took a government check for rent so far. I get a combination of cash, personal checks or money orders purchased in the tenants name. Occasionally I am payed in labor. As someone else states.... Once the tax man takes our money it's no longer ours, by the same reasoning once he gives that money to someone else it's no longer the governments.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Irish Pixie said:


> And further, the landlord usually won't report anything possibly illegal/unethical about the tenant because he or she would be jeopardizing a guaranteed monthly payment.


If they don't report it they risk losing the property altogether.

It's quite likely there's a waiting list for renters.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=waiti...003C70154430A1B951EBD98450C6&FORM=CHRDEF&sp=2


----------



## Evons hubby

Irish Pixie said:


> And further, the landlord usually won't report anything possibly illegal/unethical about the tenant because he or she would be jeopardizing a guaranteed monthly payment.


In my state a landlord can lose his property if his tenants violate our laws. I will not tolerate it from any of my tenents and make them well aware of the fact that if I hear about or suspect criminal activity the police will be notified and they will be evicted in the event they are found guilty.


----------



## Oxankle

I see that this thread had gone to hell. 

Nevertheless, I want to say that there are genuine cases of need where common human charity demands that we help, either individually or collectively thru the government.

On the other hand, I look around and see every week cases where I know that there is likely to be fraud, people drawing welfare and working, paid under the table. Women on welfare who won't marry because then the baby daddy would be family and the woman could not collect welfare and benefits for her children. Doesn't keep baby daddy from providing the next baby though. 

And then there are the people who are just too damned lazy to learn to do anything that pays more than the minimum wage. Who wants to be a sixty-year-old waiter at McDonalds? Screw around in school, do some dope, drop out, be a common laborer all your life, die young.

And don't forget that there are young men who refuse to do anything that requires muscle. Friend has worked at a shop making truck beds for years. Told me last Summer that they were hiring six to ten men each week and losing all but one or two by the end of the first week.

When I was young and hungry and could not find work at home I went out and learned a bit, then went where the work was. Oh, I was enterprising and hard working; had I stayed in my home town I might have become a skilled plumber (a good man came by my house in my senior year, told me that if I'd go to work for him and learn the trade I could have his business when he retired---I am still trying to repay men like him.)==

But I digress---The pinnacle of achievement for me might have been ownership of a service station. I simply wanted a bit more than that, and my parents did not want their children to have to work as hard as they had. So I left home and aimed a bit higher.


----------



## SLADE

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The landlord makes money (if he's lucky) from his/her investment. I know this from experience. I don't care where a tenent gets their money as long as they aren't committing crimes to do it. I just hope they pay me on time, and don't destroy my property too much during their stay.


Then you and your tenants are in agreement. That being, lets get us some tax dollars.


----------



## SLADE

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I've been a landlord for twenty years, never took a government check for rent so far. I get a combination of cash, personal checks or money orders purchased in the tenants name. Occasionally I am payed in labor. As someone else states.... Once the tax man takes our money it's no longer ours, by the same reasoning once he gives that money to someone else it's no longer the governments.


I enjoy your liberal way of looking at tax dollars.


----------



## gilberte

HDRider said:


> All this talk of gaming the system. And, yes, I do feel entitled to judge other people when the government takes my money by force and enables fraud and misrepresentation of circumstances.
> 
> A friend of mine called me the other day to share this story.
> 
> He bought a rent house cheap. Got an offer to buy it real fast, so he sold it.
> 
> He had a section 8 tenant in the house complaining about trash pickup. I am not sure why my friend felt obligated to help the guy with his trash pickup, but he did.
> 
> He meets the couple at the house. They have two kids, not married. They roll up in a new Cadillac Escapade.
> 
> I am sure some here can explain this to me.


 It's Irish Pixies Escapade, she lent it to them because they had no shoes and she's such a giving soul


----------



## Farmerga

Irish Pixie said:


> This is in response to the above post, it's not your money being spent, and therefore not your business.


As a citizen of this nation and a taxpayer, the administration of ALL taxpayer funded programs is my business.


----------



## Farmerga

AmericanStand said:


> Why is it any of your business what a working man spends his money on?


If said working man is wanting me, through my taxes, to subsidize his life, it is my business.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Farmerga said:


> As a citizen of this nation and a taxpayer, the administration of ALL taxpayer funded programs is my business.


Pipe dream. Pie in the sky. It's not our money anymore, we have no say in where our tax money is spent. 

Unless you want to start a grass roots campaign so we can decide where are tax money is spent? Let us know how it goes. I know where I don't want mine spent.


----------



## Evons hubby

SRSLADE said:


> Then you and your tenants are in agreement. That being, lets get us some tax dollars.


Really? What makes you think I or my tenents are supported by tax dollars?


----------



## Irish Pixie

Bearfootfarm said:


> I think she'd prefer they all be allowed to roam free and collect welfare.


No I wouldn't. I'd prefer that that asylum regulations were followed. It's not illegal to enter this country requesting asylum. The government needs to do it's job. 

It's insulting that you'd say such a thing about me. It would be like me saying, "I think he'd prefer to just shoot and kill of them."


----------



## Evons hubby

SRSLADE said:


> I enjoy your liberal way of looking at tax dollars.


Again, what makes you think I or my tenents are supported by tax dollars?


----------



## HDRider

Irish Pixie said:


> No I wouldn't. I'd prefer that that asylum regulations were followed. It's not illegal to enter this country requesting asylum. The government needs to do it's job.
> 
> It's insulting that you'd say such a thing about me. It would be like me saying, "I think he'd prefer to just shoot and kill of them."


It is illegal to do it when you don't go to the proper place.


----------



## Evons hubby

Irish Pixie said:


> No I wouldn't. I'd prefer that that asylum regulations were followed. It's not illegal to enter this country requesting asylum. The government needs to do it's job.
> 
> It's insulting that you'd say such a thing about me. It would be like me saying, "I think he'd prefer to just shoot and kill of them."


I think what you mean is there are legal ways to enter our country to seek asylum. It would be good if more asylum seekers used such methods.


----------



## Irish Pixie

HDRider said:


> It is illegal to do it when you don't go to the proper place.


 Nope. Anywhere in the US, within one year of entry.


----------



## painterswife

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope. Anywhere in the US, within one year of entry.


Even if you enter the country illegally.


----------



## Farmerga

Irish Pixie said:


> Pipe dream. Pie in the sky. It's not our money anymore, we have no say in where our tax money is spent.


You seem to have a very odd and defeatist view of our Republic.


----------



## TripleD

SRSLADE said:


> I think you'll find the land lord is making his living off section 8. Our tax dollars.


How is that any different than the grocery store owners making it off the snap cards?


----------



## Irish Pixie

Farmerga said:


> You seem to have a very odd and defeatist view of our Republic.


No, just a realistic one.


----------



## HDRider

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope. Anywhere in the US, within one year of entry.


With so many crossing and by law only granting 30,000 for FY 2019, most will not be granted asylum raising the incentive to stay here illegally.

~ 15,000 refugees had been resettled during the first seven months of FY 2019 (October 1, 2018 through April 30, 2019).


----------



## Irish Pixie

HDRider said:


> With so many crossing and by law only granting 30,000 for FY 2019, most will not be granted asylum raising the incentive to stay here illegally.
> 
> ~ 15,000 refugees had been resettled during the first seven months of FY 2019 (October 1, 2018 through April 30, 2019).


That's nice. Not what we were discussing, and absolutely not what you said in this post:



HDRider said:


> It is illegal to do it when you don't go to the proper place.


----------



## AmericanStand

Farmerga said:


> If said working man is wanting me, through my taxes, to subsidize his life, it is my business.


 Great then you won’t have any problem giving us a full accounting of how you spend your money since I subsidize your life.
You should also feel that way about Donald Trump giving us full accounting of how every penny He spent since we all subsidize his life too.


----------



## painterswife

HDRider said:


> With so many crossing and by law only granting 30,000 for FY 2019, most will not be granted asylum raising the incentive to stay here illegally.
> 
> ~ 15,000 refugees had been resettled during the first seven months of FY 2019 (October 1, 2018 through April 30, 2019).



You are confusing refugee numbers and asylum requests. Each asylum request must go through the proper channels and is acceptance is not based on a quota. It is based entirely on if they meet the burden of asylum requirements.


----------



## IndyDave

Irish Pixie said:


> No, just a realistic one.


The unfortunate truth is that neither the government nor the people operate as they should. I can quote "chapter and verse" of the Constitution and demonstrate that the .gov does not have the authority at the federal level to be involved. I could also point out that a majority of Americans still profess to be Christians--and a far more solid majority did when the "great society" became part of the political landscape. 

From there, Christ said that he did not come to destroy but to fulfill the Law, meaning that it did not change but rather understanding of it was to change. The command not to "sound the trumpet" was a reference to making an ostentatious display of tossing coins into the alms box (known as the 'justice' [container]) at the temple which was deliberately designed to make a ton of noise when a coin was tossed in. The point is that giving alms was prescribed but without making a display of it. This brings us around to the point that the majority of Americans pay lip service to helping those in need but relatively few actually act on it.

When charity is held in private hands, those giving generally know the needs of the needy both in terms of substance and personal growth. This is a wonderful layer of cutting out both fraud and waste.

I cannot be surprised that the same people would simultaneously feel no need to honor the Constitution and no need to honor the tenets of their own scripture of choice.

Probably the best example I can cite is a Catholic priest who passed into eternity several years ago. He knew the community and did as much as he could from his own means. The church operated a school with teachers who were for the most part paid out if his pocket. The families paid what they could afford, which often wasn't much. Food would mysteriously appear in front of people's doors. Repairs people couldn't afford would be met with workmen showing up and fixing them. This priest came from a wealthy family and was known to be a good investor. I didn't have any idea how deep this went until I met the realtor in Indianapolis who handled his real estate investments. When I mentioned my home town, Paul started telling me about his adventures with this priest. His personal charity went into the millions over time. Oh, I almost forgot to mention he was remarkably humble and not a word of this got out aside from instances when he got caught red-handed.

This is a man who I hold up as an example to follow.


----------



## Evons hubby

I have to agree with Indy on this point.... The federal government is not authorized to do about 90% of what they currently do.


----------



## AmericanStand

I thought priests didn’t have any worldly goods of their own ?
Or is that monks ?
Is there a difference? Not exactly my religion


----------



## AmericanStand

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I have to agree with Indy on this point.... The federal government is not authorized to do about 90% of what they currently do.


It would seem like the Supremes disagree with you


----------



## Irish Pixie

AmericanStand said:


> It would seem like the Supremes disagree with you


And since they are the arbitrators of the Constitution (since 1789) theirs is a decision, and not just an opinion.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Irish Pixie said:


> No I wouldn't. I'd prefer that that asylum regulations were followed. It's not illegal to enter this country requesting asylum. The government needs to do it's job.


It's illegal to cross the border anywhere other than designated points.
They don't "follow the regulations" and are therefore arrested.
The Govt is doing it's job, stopping illegal invaders.



painterswife said:


> Even if you enter the country illegally.


You can be detained and deported for that also.


----------



## Evons hubby

AmericanStand said:


> It would seem like the Supremes disagree with you


I'm well aware of the supremes involvement in the federal governments usurpation of powers not granted. That happens when you hire the fox to guard the chickens.


----------



## IndyDave

AmericanStand said:


> I thought priests didn’t have any worldly goods of their own ?
> Or is that monks ?
> Is there a difference? Not exactly my religion


That doesn't set in as a rule unless a monk. On the other hand, people of means aren't usually attracted to the priestly lifestyle.

In this case, possessions he procured for his personal use were generally on par with the standard of living for a priest even though he could easily have afforded much more.


----------



## painterswife

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's illegal to cross the border anywhere other than designated points.
> They don't "follow the regulations" and are therefore arrested.
> The Govt is doing it's job, stopping illegal invaders.
> 
> 
> You can be detained and deported for that also.


If you request asylum then the laws require that they are allowed due process through the asylum process even if they entered the country illegally. Asylum request takes precedence over illegal entry as long as they are not already in the deportation process and you do it within one year of entry.


----------



## Evons hubby

IndyDave said:


> That doesn't set in as a rule unless a monk. On the other hand, people of means aren't usually attracted to the priestly lifestyle.
> 
> In this case, possessions he procured for his personal use were generally on par with the standard of living for a priest even though he could easily have afforded much more.


Seems to me the head priest (pope) is fairly well off.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Irish Pixie said:


> *It's insulting* that you'd say such a thing about me. It would be like me saying, "I think he'd prefer to just shoot and kill of them."


You have made similar comments in the past in regards to gun owners here.

When you constantly complain about illegal immigrants being locked up, how can it possibly be an "insult" for me to say *I think* you'd prefer to have them running free?

It's just reality.


----------



## Evons hubby

painterswife said:


> If you request asylum then the laws require that they are allowed due process through the asylum process even if they entered the country illegally. Asylum request takes precedence over illegal entry as long as they are not already in the deportation process and you do it within one year of entry.


I think they also take time to be processed. Hence their detention while their fate is being determined.


----------



## Evons hubby

Bearfootfarm said:


> You have made similar comments in the past in regards to gun owners here.
> 
> When you constantly complain about illegal immigrants being locked up, how can it possibly be an "insult" for me to say *I think* you'd prefer to have them running free?
> 
> It's just reality.


Some are easily insulted. Others not so much.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

painterswife said:


> If you request asylum then the laws require that they are allowed due process through the asylum process even if they entered the country illegally. Asylum request takes precedence over illegal entry as long as they are not already in the deportation process and you do it within one year of entry.


Yeah, I've heard all that before.
Being detained is part of that "due process".
Following the law is also part of "due process".

I realize you too would prefer that they all be allowed to run free.


----------



## AmericanStand

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Seems to me the head priest (pope) is fairly well off.


I didn’t think any of that was his?

Kind a like the guy in the White House is just a squatter in a public housing project. He doesn’t even pay rent.


----------



## painterswife

Bearfootfarm said:


> Yeah, I've heard all that before.
> Being detained is part of that "due process".
> Following the law is also part of "due process".
> 
> I realize you too would prefer that they all be allowed to run free.


I don't prefer either scenario. I am speaking to what the law is, so stop making this about me personally and stick to the topic at hand. I am not the topic.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

painterswife said:


> I don't prefer either scenario. I am speaking to what the law is, so stop making this about me personally and stick to the topic at hand. I am *not the topic*.


Neither is illegal invaders and what you think about asylum laws.


----------



## IndyDave

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Seems to me the head priest (pope) is fairly well off.


Indeed so. I don't believe that many enter the priesthood with expectations of becoming pope, nor am I making any endorsement of that, or the Catholic church in general.


----------



## Farmerga

AmericanStand said:


> Great then you won’t have any problem giving us a full accounting of how you spend your money since I subsidize your life.
> You should also feel that way about Donald Trump giving us full accounting of how every penny He spent since we all subsidize his life too.


How do you figure that? I am on no government wealth transfer program and the President receives the salary (which he donates) and benefits given for the job he was Elected to do.


----------



## Evons hubby

IndyDave said:


> Indeed so. I don't believe that many enter the priesthood with expectations of becoming pope, nor am I making any endorsement of that, or the Catholic church in general.


Nor do I endorse any religion. Was just pointing out that there are some folks doing well financially because of theirs.


----------



## AmericanStand

Do you drive on public roads? Get things shipped to you by Postal Service, truck, airline, or railroad? You are a farmer do you except any subsidies have you benefited from any of the agricultural research of the land-grant colleges? I could probably go on all day


----------



## AmericanStand

Farmerga said:


> How do you figure that? I am on no government wealth transfer program and the President receives the salary (which he donates) and benefits given for the job he was Elected to do.


I’m pretty sure that the president has benefited from the many public uses of public money. I would guess but cannot prove at this point that he has had several direct grants and subsidies in his private life


----------



## Farmerga

AmericanStand said:


> I’m pretty sure that the president has benefited from the many public uses of public money. I would guess but cannot prove at this point that he has had several direct grants and subsidies in his private life


So, you are just throwing accusations out there and hope they stick?

For my part, I won't even take farm subsidies if they are offered. The cost for my pride is too high.


----------



## Evons hubby

AmericanStand said:


> Do you drive on public roads? Get things shipped to you by Postal Service, truck, airline, or railroad? You are a farmer do you except any subsidies have you benefited from any of the agricultural research of the land-grant colleges? I could probably go on all day


I drive on the same roads that everyone has the use of. I rarely have anything shipped to me but when I do I pay out my pocket for those costs. I farm, but do not accept subsidies. To me it isn't worth having the government telling me what I can produce or how much I can produce.


----------



## Farmerga

AmericanStand said:


> Do you drive on public roads? Get things shipped to you by Postal Service, truck, airline, or railroad? You are a farmer do you except any subsidies have you benefited from any of the agricultural research of the land-grant colleges? I could probably go on all day


Yep, and I pay taxes to pay for them. Yep and I pay taxes and postage. I do not accept any farm subsides. My type of farming is not really researched, in fact, it is largely discouraged by government.


----------



## HDRider

Irish Pixie said:


> That's nice. Not what we were discussing, and absolutely not what you said in this post:


OK, sorry, I got that wrong. That does not bother me, because I know you will gleefully point it out.


----------



## HDRider

painterswife said:


> You are confusing refugee numbers and asylum requests. Each asylum request must go through the proper channels and is acceptance is not based on a quota. It is based entirely on if they meet the burden of asylum requirements.


..
Fiscal year 2018 broke records for the number of decisions (42,224) by immigration judges granting or denying asylum.

In 65.0 percent of these decisions this past year asylum was denied.

https://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/539/


----------



## Irish Pixie

HDRider said:


> OK, sorry, I got that wrong. That does not bother me, because I know you will gleefully point it out.


No need to apologize, everyone makes mistakes.


----------



## HDRider

Irish Pixie said:


> No need to apologize, everyone makes mistakes.


More glee


----------



## Irish Pixie

HDRider said:


> More glee


Sorry if you misunderstood.


----------



## AmericanStand

Farmerga said:


> Yep, and I pay taxes to pay for them. Yep and I pay taxes and postage. I do not accept any farm subsides. My type of farming is not really researched, in fact, it is largely discouraged by government.


 So you pick and choose which subsidies you will accept ?
That’s fine so do the people on snap. 
So you pay taxes that help support some of the subsidies you accept. 
That’s fine so do the people on snap.
Now Then where is that full accounting of how you spend your money so we can criticize how you waste it ?


----------



## HDRider

Irish Pixie said:


> Sorry if you misunderstood.


I think I understand you very well


----------



## Farmerga

AmericanStand said:


> So you pick and choose which subsidies you will accept ?
> That’s fine so do the people on snap.
> So you pay taxes that help support some of the subsidies you accept.
> That’s fine so do the people on snap.
> Now Then where is that full accounting of how you spend your money so we can criticize how you waste it ?


Those are not subsides. Those are Constitutional items for the general welfare.(that means they are for the use of ALL, or, the general population) Snap and other such welfare programs (Including farm subsides) are examples of SPECIFIC welfare. They are not constitutional and shouldn't exist.


----------



## keenataz

Farmerga said:


> Those are not subsides. Those are Constitutional items for the general welfare.(that means they are for the use of ALL, or, the general population) Snap and other such welfare programs (Including farm subsides) are examples of SPECIFIC welfare. They are not constitutional and shouldn't exist.



But many are glad they do.


----------



## Evons hubby

keenataz said:


> But many are glad they do.


of course, kids love free ice cream too, but that don't mean it's good for them.


----------



## SLADE

TripleD said:


> How is that any different than the grocery store owners making it off the snap cards?


It's not. It's the hypocrisy some of us have about who should receive tax dollars.


----------



## HDRider

SRSLADE said:


> It's not. It's the hypocrisy some of us have about who should receive tax dollars.


Not so much who, but how


----------



## painterswife

Government food programs operate on rules. As long as they follow the rules then they have every right to buy what they want within those rules. Individuals do not get to dictate or decide what or why they buy something.

The same goes for taxes and tax deductions. They get to benefit from any legal deduction or tax dodge they can use. Do you get to decide what deductions they use?

The only way you have any say in these is at the voting booth or taking them to court id you have standing.


----------



## Farmerga

keenataz said:


> But many are glad they do.


No doubt. Bank robbers are stoked about the existence of banks.


----------



## Evons hubby

AmericanStand said:


> So you pick and choose which subsidies you will accept ?
> That’s fine so do the people on snap.
> So you pay taxes that help support some of the subsidies you accept.
> That’s fine so do the people on snap.
> Now Then where is that full accounting of how you spend your money so we can criticize how you waste it ?


I take care of necessities first, (alcohol and smokes) then move down the scale to food, utilities, repairs to house, vehicles and things of that nature. Anything after that gets saved for future investments or donated to folks in need. Criticize all you want. It's my money, I worked and earned every dime, paid all taxes due. I figure I should be able to spend it on anything I want or give it to whomever I want.


----------



## mreynolds

SRSLADE said:


> It's not. It's the hypocrisy some of us have about who should receive tax dollars.


In HUD there are rules about the condition of the house. Pretty strict ones too. 

Wonder why there are no rules on SNAP about what they have to feed their children? It's like they want them to live safely while slowly dying of malnutrition.


----------



## HDRider

painterswife said:


> Government food programs operate on rules. As long as they follow the rules then they have every right to buy what they want within those rules. Individuals do not get to dictate or decide what or why they buy something.
> 
> The same goes for taxes and tax deductions. They get to benefit from any legal deduction or tax dodge they can use. Do you get to decide what deductions they use?
> 
> The only way you have any say in these is at the voting booth or taking them to court id you have standing.


----------



## AmericanStand

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I take care of necessities first, (alcohol and smokes) then move down the scale to food, utilities, repairs to house, vehicles and things of that nature. Anything after that gets saved for future investments or donated to folks in need. Criticize all you want. It's my money, I worked and earned every dime, paid all taxes due. I figure I should be able to spend it on anything I want or give it to whomever I want.


Why isn’t snap the same ?
It’s just the government portion of a working mans pay.


----------



## AmericanStand

mreynolds said:


> In HUD there are rules about the condition of the house. Pretty strict ones too.
> 
> Wonder why there are no rules on SNAP about what they have to feed their children? It's like they want them to live safely while slowly dying of malnutrition.


Mostly because they don’t work. 
People can seldom make use of food they do not understand


----------



## mreynolds

AmericanStand said:


> Why isn’t snap the same ?
> It’s just the government portion of a working mans pay.


Why not just let them buy alcohol and cigarettes with it then?

It's their money after all.


----------



## mreynolds

AmericanStand said:


> Mostly because they don’t work.
> People can seldom make use of food they do not understand


You misunderstand. I want them to be able to buy food. Any food they want. I just don't think that Coke's, Kool aid and stuff like that should be spent with it.


----------



## AmericanStand

Farmerga said:


> Those are not subsides. Those are Constitutional items for the general welfare.(that means they are for the use of ALL, or, the general population) Snap and other such welfare programs (Including farm subsides) are examples of SPECIFIC welfare. They are not constitutional and shouldn't exist.


Just because their constitutional doesn’t mean they’re not a subsidy 
Snap is also for all just as much as the Postal Service.
Apparently the Supreme court does not agree with you and in the rules of this land your opinion loses.


----------



## AmericanStand

mreynolds said:


> You misunderstand. I want them to be able to buy food. Any food they want. I just don't think that Coke's, Kool aid and stuff like that should be spent with it.


Would you care to make a list of the food and drink that does not meet your approval?


----------



## AmericanStand

mreynolds said:


> Why not just let them buy alcohol and cigarettes with it then?
> 
> It's their money after all.


I think that’s because of people like you


----------



## mreynolds

AmericanStand said:


> Would you care to make a list of the food and drink that does not meet your approval?


Sure thing. So you want a draft first or wait until it is finished?


----------



## AmericanStand

Lol Will that take a while? If it will I’m going to go make myself a rum and Coke ........


----------



## mreynolds

AmericanStand said:


> I think that’s because of people like you


Well now you have hurt my feelings. I don't want to be that guy that keeps people from getting drunk or coughing up a lung. I'm usually the one that holds their beer for them when they do something crazy.


----------



## Farmerga

AmericanStand said:


> Just because their constitutional doesn’t mean they’re not a subsidy
> Snap is also for all just as much as the Postal Service.
> Apparently the Supreme court does not agree with you and in the rules of this land your opinion loses.


A subsidy, by definition, is a sum of money given(notice the lack of the word "earned"). Snap is a subsidy, roads and postal service is not.


----------



## mreynolds

AmericanStand said:


> Lol Will that take a while? If it will I’m going to go make myself a rum and Coke ........


It really wouldn't be a long list. If it doesn't have X amount of nutritional value they shouldn't be isn't snap to buy it. 

Milk.... Yes
coke....no
Etc.


----------



## mreynolds

WIC does it with excellent results.


----------



## no really

mreynolds said:


> It really wouldn't be a long list. If it doesn't have X amount of nutritional value they shouldn't be isn't snap to buy it.
> 
> Milk.... Yes
> coke....no
> Etc.


Makes sense seeing as how SNAP is abbreviation for Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program. It doesn't say non nutritional program.


----------



## mnn2501

I've paid taxes since my first job in 1972. My parents and grand parents before me paid their taxes also.
I pay road taxes with every gallon of gasoline I purchase, and I pay tolls on the highways around here and in other states that I drive that have toll roads.
When I fly, a certain amount of each ticket price goes to the airports involved (departing and arriving) - read the fine print.
When I rent a car out of town I also pay an airport fee (read the fine print).
When I stay in a hotel out of town, every city has its own fee's it adds on to the cost of the hotel room.
The one time I have had to call 911, I was sent a bill from the city at the end of the month - and paid it promptly.
I pay property taxes which go to pay for 'the government', and the schools among other things.
The city, county and state all add taxes/fee to my internet and phone bills.
I don't use SNAP, collect welfare, etc., never have.

I'm not sure where some of you are getting that 'the government' (that should read 'the taxpayer') is subsidizing my existence.


----------



## mreynolds

no really said:


> Makes sense seeing as how SNAP is abbreviation for Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program. It doesn't say non nutritional program.


Exactly. Most people can see the issue. It's not stopping anyone from buying these items at all. Just not buying them with snap.


----------



## mreynolds

mnn2501 said:


> I've paid taxes since my first job in 1972. My parents and grand parents before me paid their taxes also.
> I pay road taxes with every gallon of gasoline I purchase, and I pay tolls on the highways around here and in other states that I drive that have toll roads.
> When I fly, a certain amount of each ticket price goes to the airports involved (departing and arriving) - read the fine print.
> When I rent a car out of town I also pay an airport fee (read the fine print).
> When I stay in a hotel out of town, every city has its own fee's it adds on to the cost of the hotel room.
> The one time I have had to call 911, I was sent a bill from the city at the end of the month - and paid it promptly.
> I pay property taxes which go to pay for 'the government', and the schools among other things.
> The city, county and state all add taxes/fee to my internet and phone bills.
> I don't use SNAP, collect welfare, etc., never have.
> 
> I'm not sure where some of you are getting that 'the government' (that should read 'the taxpayer') is subsidizing my existence.


You forgot many others like cell phone tax. Insurance tax. (Auto, home and health) A license is a tax. ( Hunting, drivers, plumbers) tax on tires, batteries etc. 

100's of them.


----------



## mnn2501

mreynolds said:


> You forgot many others like cell phone tax. Insurance tax. (Auto, home and health) A license is a tax. ( Hunting, drivers, plumbers) tax on tires, batteries etc.
> 
> 100's of them.


You are correct and I also forgot to mention sales tax on just about everything I buy.


----------



## Evons hubby

AmericanStand said:


> Just because their constitutional doesn’t mean they’re not a subsidy
> Snap is also for all just as much as the Postal Service.
> Apparently the Supreme court does not agree with you and in the rules of this land your opinion loses.


Really? Anyone can get snap? I thought only some people qualified.


----------



## Evons hubby

AmericanStand said:


> Why isn’t snap the same ?
> It’s just the government portion of a working mans pay.


Not sure I understand "just the government portion of a working mans pay"? How is snap the same as money I worked for and earned?


----------



## SLADE

Detention Centers
Surveillance
More Topics
Project On Government Oversight

SUBSCRIBE
DONATE
Ethics POGO.ORG
*The Snack Food and Corn Syrup Lobbyist Shaping Trump's Dietary Guidelines for Americans*

BY LAURA PETERSON | FILED UNDER INVESTIGATION | AUGUST 23, 2018


----------



## mreynolds

SRSLADE said:


> Detention Centers
> Surveillance
> More Topics
> Project On Government Oversight
> 
> SUBSCRIBE
> DONATE
> Ethics POGO.ORG
> *The Snack Food and Corn Syrup Lobbyist Shaping Trump's Dietary Guidelines for Americans*
> 
> BY LAURA PETERSON | FILED UNDER INVESTIGATION | AUGUST 23, 2018


And now we are getting somewhere. At least we know where to look at to start with. 

Of course we already knew we just love to argue about it.


----------



## AmericanStand

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Not sure I understand "just the government portion of a working mans pay"? How is snap the same as money I worked for and earned?


 Simple it simply is part of the compensation that you work for and earn. Just as earned income compensation is ,it is a government incentive for you to work for low wages But you other boys could not afford to live on


----------



## Farmerga

AmericanStand said:


> Simple it simply is part of the compensation that you work for and earn. Just as earned income compensation is ,it is a government incentive for you to work for low wages But you other boys could not afford to live on


And why should government be incentivizing you to work for low wages? Why not give high wage earners a reward for earning high wages?


----------



## Evons hubby

AmericanStand said:


> Simple it simply is part of the compensation that you work for and earn. Just as earned income compensation is ,it is a government incentive for you to work for low wages But you other boys could not afford to live on


Apparently I need to work on reading comprehension. The more you type the more confused I get.

I've always tried to get all I could for my work. Are you saying others work for less, or don't work at all, to get snap?


----------



## AmericanStand

Close but it’s the other way around. 
Snap and the earned income credit create the ability to work for lower wages and still survive 
Without them people would have to go to other places to work or live


----------



## Farmerga

AmericanStand said:


> Close but it’s the other way around.
> Snap and the earned income credit create the ability to work for lower wages and still survive
> Without them people would have to go to other places to work or live


So, what you are saying is that government welfare programs keep people in less than ideal situations? If so, I agree.


----------



## Evons hubby

AmericanStand said:


> Close but it’s the other way around.
> Snap and the earned income credit create the ability to work for lower wages and still survive
> Without them people would have to go to other places to work or live


Oddly enough I managed to feed my family on very low wages during my lean years. Just had to cut back on luxuries like electricity, running water, telephone.....


----------



## Evons hubby

Farmerga said:


> So, what you are saying is that government. welfare programs keep people in less than ideal situations? If so, I agree.


That does appear to be their main purpose. Keep people poor and dependent on the gov.


----------



## mreynolds

Yvonne's hubby said:


> That does appear to be their main purpose. Keep people poor and dependent on the gov.


Don't forget the main one: make those poor people blame the rich. It keeps the eyes of the actual ones doing the deed.


----------



## HDRider

AmericanStand said:


> Close but it’s the other way around.
> Snap and the earned income credit create the ability to work for lower wages and still survive
> Without them people would have to go to other places to work or live


Is that a problem?


----------



## AmericanStand

Farmerga said:


> So, what you are saying is that government welfare programs keep people in less than ideal situations? If so, I agree.


 Yes. It means millions in the pockets of rich companies taking advantage of captive labor in poor markets. 
Other incentives allow landlords to make multiples of what the rental units are actually worth. 
Think about it if all the people who could not afford to live without government subsidies moved out of an area of the housing in that area would be nearly worthless I can think of some areas in Tennessee that illustrate this quite clearly. 
In my particular part of the Illinois $10,000 houses can be rented too hud households for $800 a month.


----------



## AmericanStand

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Oddly enough I managed to feed my family on very low wages during my lean years. Just had to cut back on luxuries like electricity, running water, telephone.....


Are you bragging about your inability to provide normal niceties of life in the United States?


----------



## AmericanStand

HDRider said:


> Is that a problem?


Only when others start telling them how they should spend the money they have worked and suffered so hard for


----------



## mnn2501

AmericanStand said:


> Close but it’s the other way around.
> Snap and the earned income credit create the ability to work for lower wages and still survive
> Without them people would have to go to other places to work or live


Or eliminating them (or actually tightening the up) could also cause wages to raise.


----------



## AmericanStand

But then it would take more cash to achieve the same level of support for our wounded vets and disabled workers.


----------



## MO_cows

Yvonne's hubby said:


> snap is not intended to provide your entire food supply. It's supposed to be assistance.


Worth repeating. The S in SNAP stands for supplemental.


----------



## Evons hubby

AmericanStand said:


> Are you bragging about your inability to provide normal niceties of life in the United States?


Nope, just commenting on my ability and willingness to live within my means without picking my neighbors pockets while temporarily running low on funds. You know... Stuff happens in the finest of families and like that.


----------



## Evons hubby

AmericanStand said:


> In my particular part of the Illinois $10,000 houses can be rented too hud households for $800 a month.


 as a greedy landlord I find this difficult to beleive. In my state any dwelling that would qualify for HUD would cost in excess of $50k. More likely in the $70 to $80k range.


----------



## IndyDave

Yvonne's hubby said:


> as a greedy landlord I find this difficult to beleive. In my state any dwelling that would qualify for HUD would cost in excess of $50k. More likely in the $70 to $80k range.


That isn't universally true. I was shocked when a friend looked into it and discovered that he could meet standards with cheap houses in the 'hood so long as the roofs were sound, the interior was painted at the specified frequency, and the plumbing and wiring worked AND MET CODE AS IN FORCE WHEN THE HOUSE WAS BUILT. In other words, he looked at houses that had bare wire strung between ceramic insulators and it was acceptable by virtue of meeting code at the time of installation.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

AmericanStand said:


> In my particular part of the Illinois $10,000 houses can be rented too hud households for $800 a month.


https://section-8-housing.org/information-for-section-8-landlords-section-8-housing/
"However, in order to obtain the HUD monthly payments, *landlords must meet several obligations*, as set forth by the department. 
*
Property owners must provide safe, clean and decent housing units at a rent amount close to fair market value for the area where the dwelling is located.*

As long as the proprietor receives the HUD funds on a monthly basis, he or she must perform regular maintenance on the rental unit in order to meet standards set by the program. The PHA, on the other hand, is obligated to routinely inspect the housing. If the landlord fails to follow the stipulations of the lease, the PHA is authorized to discontinue providing the HUD payments."


----------



## Evons hubby

IndyDave said:


> That isn't universally true. I was shocked when a friend looked into it and discovered that he could meet standards with cheap houses in the 'hood so long as the roofs were sound, the interior was painted at the specified frequency, and the plumbing and wiring worked AND MET CODE AS IN FORCE WHEN THE HOUSE WAS BUILT. In other words, he looked at houses that had bare wire strung between ceramic insulators and it was acceptable by virtue of meeting code at the time of installation.


There is nothing "unsafe" about knob and tube wiring. But very few homes in my area (rural Kentucky) come close to meeting HUD standards, and even fewer can be had for $10K. The cheapest I've ever bought was an old single wide I picked up for $12k as a bank repo.... Then had to spend another $25k to make it livable. I honestly doubt it would meet HUD standards even now. No provisions for handicapped tenents.


----------



## Redlands Okie

AmericanStand said:


> Yes. It means millions in the pockets of rich companies taking advantage of captive labor in poor markets.
> Other incentives allow landlords to make multiples of what the rental units are actually worth.
> Think about it if all the people who could not afford to live without government subsidies moved out of an area of the housing in that area would be nearly worthless I can think of some areas in Tennessee that illustrate this quite clearly.
> In my particular part of the Illinois $10,000 houses can be rented too hud households for $800 a month.


And the well to do are leaving the state in record numbers. Illinois I believe is in the top 5 states in the nation of people leaving for states with different tax programs. Many see the problem quite well, and leave.


----------



## shawnlee

Irish Pixie said:


> The *majority *of people on SNAP have jobs and have children, or they are elderly, disabled, or homeless.
> 
> I was being facetious with the scarlet letter scenario, but you obviously weren't with humiliating people- "I wouldn't be opposed to able bodied young men and women who have been on the program for years with no effort to change their ways, find work, etc. be required to wear a blaze orange jersey with the word FREELOADER on it when they go through the check out line."
> 
> Shame is shame.



Shame is good and natural,...there is a reason good actions make us feel good and fulfilled and shameful ones make us feel shame...….feelings are a motivator, …..when you do not allow them to feel shame, you are stealing the motivation that spurs change.


Its a shame when you mention a deadbeat and then everyone piles in with children and elderly stories,.....no person I have ever seen post here wants to starve the elderly and children. 


Able bodied people should feel shame, humiliation and all the other natural feelings that make them change their ways.


I have needed a helping hand from family and friends and even when I earned it, I feel shame,......motivates me to never be in that position again.


No solution that ignores the way things naturally work will ever work.


----------



## shawnlee

Redlands Okie said:


> And the well to do are leaving the state in record numbers. Illinois I believe is in the top 5 states in the nation of people leaving for states with different tax programs. Many see the problem quite well, and leave.


 They are also pouring out of Cali in record numbers...…….but the disillusioned keep moving here seeking the Hollywood dream so it balances out population wise, but there is a disproportionate amount of disillusioned now here because of that.


I am tired of being looked at like the devil because I will not enter Babylon with them and roll like a pig in the immorality.


----------



## Evons hubby

shawnlee said:


> Shame is good and natural,...there is a reason good actions make us feel good and fulfilled and shameful ones make us feel shame...….feelings are a motivator, …..when you do not allow them to feel shame, you are stealing the motivation that spurs change.
> 
> 
> * Its a shame when you mention a deadbeat and then everyone piles in with children and elderly stories,.....no person I have ever seen post here wants to starve the elderly and children. *
> 
> 
> Able bodied people should feel shame, humiliation and all the other natural feelings that make them change their ways.
> 
> 
> I have needed a helping hand from family and friends and even when I earned it, I feel shame,......motivates me to never be in that position again.
> 
> 
> No solution that ignores the way things naturally work will ever work.


i don't want to see anyone hungry, not even young able bodied deadbeats. The problem I have is perpetuating the problem by constantly taking care of those who won't take care of themselves. There is no incentive to look for work or ways to better themselves. Safety nets become hammocks. County poor farms used to feed folks but were not very desirable so people maximized their own efforts to avoid them. Our current "solution" simply doesn't work. It perpetuates instead of solving. We need to find a better solution.


----------



## GTX63

IndyDave said:


> That isn't universally true. I was shocked when a friend looked into it and discovered that he could meet standards with cheap houses in the 'hood so long as the roofs were sound, the interior was painted at the specified frequency, and the plumbing and wiring worked AND MET CODE AS IN FORCE WHEN THE HOUSE WAS BUILT. In other words, he looked at houses that had bare wire strung between ceramic insulators and it was acceptable by virtue of meeting code at the time of installation.


There is a very wide latitude between agencies and their interpretation and implementation of HUD standards with regard to housing and section 8. There are some housing directors who will instruct their inspectors to follow codes to their letter; others who will use the "Safe, Secure and Sanitary" rule.
The one "Universal" about this program is, like every single other government program (yes, I'm being absolute) it is ripe with abuse and fraud. The participants, the bureaucracy and then lower level employees, in that order.
Some of it is blatant, others discreet, some because of a lack of options, and some with that old stand by "good intentions."


----------



## Farmerga

AmericanStand said:


> Yes. It means millions in the pockets of rich companies taking advantage of captive labor in poor markets.
> Other incentives allow landlords to make multiples of what the rental units are actually worth.
> Think about it if all the people who could not afford to live without government subsidies moved out of an area of the housing in that area would be nearly worthless I can think of some areas in Tennessee that illustrate this quite clearly.
> In my particular part of the Illinois $10,000 houses can be rented too hud households for $800 a month.


So, without these programs, wages would, by necessity, rise because people would be more willing to move from low wage areas to high wage areas and, of course, they can more easily move than a company.


----------



## Farmerga

Yvonne's hubby said:


> That does appear to be their main purpose. Keep people poor and dependent on the gov.


Without doubt.


----------



## GTX63

AmericanStand said:


> In my particular part of the Illinois $10,000 houses can be rented too hud households for $800 a month.


Section 8 housing standards are based on Federal CFRs. They are the same no matter if in Florida, Arizona, or Illinois.
That 10k houses (plural) passed an inspection should be all that needs to be said, but
I'll repeat what I posted earlier-
The one "Universal" about this program is, like every single other government program (yes, I'm being absolute) it is ripe with abuse and fraud. The participants, the bureaucracy and then lower level employees, in that order.
Some of it is blatant, others discreet, some because of a lack of options, and some with that old stand by "good intentions."


----------



## TripleD

Yvonne's hubby said:


> as a greedy landlord I find this difficult to beleive. In my state any dwelling that would qualify for HUD would cost in excess of $50k. More likely in the $70 to $80k range.


I've bought them for 15k and spent 35k on them. On the other hand I've bought them for 35k and spent 15k. They still average out to about $700 per month...


----------



## Farmerga

The key point, that most are using, is that government is incapable of distinguishing between those who actually need a helping hand and those who need a swift kick to the backside.


----------



## TripleD

Farmerga said:


> The key point, that most are using, is that government is incapable of distinguishing between those who actually need a helping hand and those who need a swift kick to the backside.


It's passed on to the next generation almost every time. I've seen three generations stay on that path many times in my job...


----------



## HDRider

Farmerga said:


> The key point, that most are using, is that government is incapable of distinguishing between those who actually need a helping hand and those who need a swift kick to the backside.


There is the crux of government assistance. It creates a class of abusers and users.

Someone said it earlier, when shame is removed there is no shame.


----------



## GTX63

It isn't a reach to say that most advocates for increasing government entitlements aren't actively involved with government entitlements (taxes don't count).
That is where the oft repeated phrase "Why doesn't someone just do something?" comes in.
They "feel better" knowing that if one family is fed thru that program then it is worth it. Meanwhile, they have no idea of the inner workings, manipulations and rot that thrives in an environment where most of of the oversight is slanted and myopic.
The system is geared towards single parents and/or their single parent children....remaining that way.
It isn't said, but the methods, the structure, the mechanics, all push the choices people make in one direction- downstream.


----------



## AmericanStand

Bearfootfarm said:


> https://section-8-housing.org/information-for-section-8-landlords-section-8-housing/
> "However, in order to obtain the HUD monthly payments, *landlords must meet several obligations*, as set forth by the department.
> *
> Property owners must provide safe, clean and decent housing units at a rent amount close to fair market value for the area where the dwelling is located.*
> 
> As long as the proprietor receives the HUD funds on a monthly basis, he or she must perform regular maintenance on the rental unit in order to meet standards set by the program. The PHA, on the other hand, is obligated to routinely inspect the housing. If the landlord fails to follow the stipulations of the lease, the PHA is authorized to discontinue providing the HUD payments."


What was your point in making the above post ?


----------



## AmericanStand

Redlands Okie said:


> And the well to do are leaving the state in record numbers. Illinois I believe is in the top 5 states in the nation of people leaving for states with different tax programs. Many see the problem quite well, and leave.


Yes and many others see the opportunities and stay. One problem with Illinois statistics is that Chicago is skews the numbers for the rest of the state


----------



## TripleD

AmericanStand said:


> What was your point in making the above post ?


I can guess that fair market value is $800 per month for a $10000 house in your area...


----------



## Bearfootfarm

AmericanStand said:


> What was *your point* in making the above post ?


Factual information.


----------



## AmericanStand

shawnlee said:


> Its a shame when you mention a deadbeat and then everyone piles in with children and elderly stories,.....no person I have ever seen post here wants to starve the elderly and children.


 It is an insult to the program when someone mentions seeing an able bottle bodied young man buying steaks and assumes they are not working as if that was the average participants 

Those doing that should feel shame for making such a post.

Yes the system is occasionally take advantage of but it is not Everyone


----------



## AmericanStand

GTX63 said:


> There is a very wide latitude between agencies and their interpretation and implementation of HUD standards with regard to housing and section 8. There are some housing directors who will instruct their inspectors to follow codes to their letter; others who will use the "Safe, Secure and Sanitary" rule.
> The one "Universal" about this program is, like every single other government program (yes, I'm being absolute) it is ripe with abuse and fraud. The participants, the bureaucracy and then lower level employees, in that order.
> Some of it is blatant, others discreet, some because of a lack of options, and some with that old stand by "good intentions."


If you are going to insult everyone in an entire agency I believe that you should provide some sort of link to prove your point


----------



## AmericanStand

Farmerga said:


> So, without these programs, wages would, by necessity, rise because people would be more willing to move from low wage areas to high wage areas and, of course, they can more easily move than a company.


 Not exactly accurate that they would be willing to more they would be forced too. 
Yes they would find great incentive.


----------



## AmericanStand

Farmerga said:


> Without doubt.


And working for artificially low wages.


----------



## AmericanStand

GTX63 said:


> It isn't a reach to say that most advocates for increasing government entitlements aren't actively involved with government entitlements (taxes don't count).
> That is where the oft repeated phrase "Why doesn't someone just do something?" comes in.
> They "feel better" knowing that if one family is fed thru that program then it is worth it. Meanwhile, they have no idea of the inner workings, manipulations and rot that thrives in an environment where most of of the oversight is slanted and myopic.
> The system is geared towards single parents and/or their single parent children....remaining that way.
> It isn't said, but the methods, the structure, the mechanics, all push the choices people make in one direction- downstream.


 This seems to be true ,I have noticed that your unemployment is withdrawn if you go to school to learn new skills . so would most of your other assistances .

BUT
If you find the right government programs For education they waive that


----------



## AmericanStand

TripleD said:


> I can guess that fair market value is $800 per month for a $10000 house in your area...


Not without hud it wouldn’t be.


----------



## TripleD

AmericanStand said:


> Not without hud it wouldn’t be.


That sounds like government rent control?


----------



## GTX63

AmericanStand said:


> If you are going to insult everyone in an entire agency I believe that you should provide some sort of link to prove your point


Not meant to insult everyone, and my post doesn't say that.

I am the link. I am speaking first hand knowledge and experience.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

AmericanStand said:


> What factual information did you add to the discussion?


I'm not going to play this silly game with you today.


----------



## AmericanStand

Of course not since you just wanted to increase your post count. 
You added nothing that was needed or Clarified anything in dispute.


----------



## AmericanStand

GTX63 said:


> Not meant to insult everyone, and my post doesn't say that.
> 
> I am the link. I am speaking first hand knowledge and experience.


You Call everyone in an entire agency a thief and yet you don’t mean to insult anyone?

But I do actually like your last sentence” I am the link” it’s what we come here for ,actual first hand knowledge.


----------



## GTX63

Nope. I gave you the order of abuse, not the percentage of those doing it.


----------



## wr

AmericanStand said:


> It is an insult to the program when someone mentions seeing an able bottle bodied young man buying steaks and assumes they are not working as if that was the average participants
> 
> Those doing that should feel shame for making such a post.
> 
> Yes the system is occasionally take advantage of but it is not Everyone


Could it not be said that if we eliminated those who abuse the system, there would be more money available for those that actually need it? 

I know a chef, who quit his job and took up panhandling for a living. He claims he's making $5000/month and if his earnings drop, he supplements with welfare and trips to the food bank. 

He's not a rare example and I could cite many more.


----------



## AmericanStand

Yes if we eliminated abuse there would be more money left for all of us.
I believe your chef friend is a rare item. If he wasn’t nobody would be working


----------



## Bearfootfarm

wr said:


> Could it not be said that if we *eliminated those who abuse the system*, there would be more money available for those that actually need it?


That would be a great help, along with cutting off the flow of 100,000 new illegal invaders every month who add to the burden.


----------



## wr

AmericanStand said:


> Yes if we eliminated abuse there would be more money left for all of us.
> I believe your chef friend is a rare item. If he wasn’t nobody would be working


He's not as rare as one would believe and I could offer dozens more. After dozens of pages of debate, the reality is that most people are not adverse to helping out those that need it but many of us resent the idea that those who abuse the system are stealing from taxpayers and those who are truly vulnerable. 

I can't speak for the US but in Canada, there was a time when the government employed people to ensure cheaters were not abusing the system and taxpayers were in favour. Now it seems we should accept that the government is too busy to check on cheaters and a few bad apples don't cost that much anyhow.


----------



## mreynolds

AmericanStand said:


> You Call everyone in an entire agency a thief and yet you don’t mean to insult anyone?
> 
> But I do actually like your last sentence” I am the link” it’s what we come here for ,actual first hand knowledge.


He said " not meant to insult *everyone*"

He didn't say it wouldn't insult anyone. 

That means there are those that game the system from the inside. (Not everyone) this should be a concern to you because there ones that suffer are the ones that rely on these government programs. 

No one's on a diet here so let's stop with the word salad. I know you know there is corruption from the inside.


----------



## AmericanStand

wr said:


> He's not as rare as one would believe and I could offer dozens more. After dozens of pages of debate, the reality is that most people are not adverse to helping out those that need it but many of us resent the idea that those who abuse the system are stealing from taxpayers and those who are truly vulnerable.
> 
> I can't speak for the US but in Canada, there was a time when the government employed people to ensure cheaters were not abusing the system and taxpayers were in favour. Now it seems we should accept that the government is too busy to check on cheaters and a few bad apples don't cost that much anyhow.


 Dozens ?
If that is true he is infinitely rare.

I can sure agree with the rest of your post


----------



## HDRider

AmericanStand said:


> Yes if we eliminated abuse there would be more money left for all of us.
> I believe your chef friend is a rare item. If he wasn’t nobody would be working


There are a few hundred of these.


----------



## AmericanStand

mreynolds said:


> He said " not meant to insult *everyone*"
> 
> He didn't say it wouldn't insult anyone.
> 
> That means there are those that game the system from the inside. (Not everyone) this should be a concern to you because there ones that suffer are the ones that rely on these government programs.
> 
> No one's on a diet here so let's stop with the word salad. I know you know there is corruption from the inside.


He said;
“The one "Universal" about this program is, like every single other government program (yes, I'm being absolute) it is ripe with abuse and fraud. The participants, the bureaucracy and then lower level employees, in that order.
Some of it is blatant, others discreet, some because of a lack of options, and some with that old stand by "good intentions."”

Sounds pretty universal to me.


----------



## mreynolds

wr said:


> Could it not be said that if we eliminated those who abuse the system, there would be more money available for those that actually need it?
> 
> I know a chef, who quit his job and took up panhandling for a living. He claims he's making $5000/month and if his earnings drop, he supplements with welfare and trips to the food bank.
> 
> He's not a rare example and I could cite many more.


Decades ago a Houston radio station did a gig. They were going to have a DJ stand on an anonymous corner on an anonymous day and panhandle. All the money was going to charity. People called in and guessed how much they would get for one day. The winner got concert tickets and named the charity. Plus I think the station matched the amount in cash. 

It was 850 dollars. The highest guess was a little over 300. This was in the 90s.


----------



## mreynolds

AmericanStand said:


> He said;
> “The one "Universal" about this program is, like every single other government program (yes, I'm being absolute) it is ripe with abuse and fraud. The participants, the bureaucracy and then lower level employees, in that order.
> Some of it is blatant, others discreet, some because of a lack of options, and some with that old stand by "good intentions."”
> 
> Sounds pretty universal to me.


It is universal. Every government program has cheaters in it. From the inside.


----------



## AmericanStand

I once met a girl at an airport with panhandled by asking for ticket money to get home. At the time she was making in the six figures working 2 to 3 days a month. 
I don’t like she is typical


----------



## AmericanStand

mreynolds said:


> It is universal. Every government program had cheaters in it. From the inside.


Think you’re gonna have to prove that . it’s certainly not credible without extensive proof absolutes are seldom accurate


----------



## mreynolds

AmericanStand said:


> Think you’re gonna have to prove that . it’s certainly not credible without extensive proof absolutes are seldom accurate


Not credible???? 

So you think every government employee is an angel? No one takes bribes or kickbacks? No one has a company hire their kid or nephew? Halliburton contacts in Iraq were because of competitive bids? PACS don't pay money to crooked politicians?

You are not acting credible.


----------



## shawnlee

AmericanStand said:


> You Call everyone in an entire agency a thief and yet you don’t mean to insult anyone?
> 
> .


 Here is the reality of the situation......


Those who engage in the overt subversive behavior willingly and knowingly,...… those who garner small favors and perks, not outlined in the job title,....those who know the system is messed up, but continue to further the system,......those who see the subversive behaviors and keep their mouth shut,,...…..then you have the actual innocent or clueless who do not see any subversion and think the system works perfect, often referred to as useful idiots.


While the overt subversives who abuse their positions are not the main percentage,......the rest add to that making very few innocent.


When 60% of the meat is spoiled or the bread moldy, is the other 40% of good value still, or do we toss the entire loaf.


While the individual may think there is a difference, there is no difference in being the actual subversive or looking the other way,...or knowing and ignoring, however you want to explain it.


You see em every day, the employees that know it is all messed up, but still work there, even though they know...…..


Having known people on both sides of these type of agencies, I can say they have been broken and functioning very poorly for quite some time now and everyone knows it,....from the recipients to the CEO.


----------



## shawnlee

AmericanStand said:


> Think you’re gonna have to prove that . it’s certainly not credible without extensive proof absolutes are seldom accurate



Sorry, we are not in a court of law, with convoluted double talk, precedents and crooked judges.


I would be willing to bet the wife, the kids and most importantly,...the dog on that.


In fact, I think you would be very very hard pressed to find one single person not cheating something in some way, the size and scope might vary,...,.,.from finding a quarter that is not yours to bilking millions out the back door,...the innocent are very very few when speaking of adults.


----------



## Evons hubby

TripleD said:


> I've bought them for 15k and spent 35k on them. On the other hand I've bought them for 35k and spent 15k. They still average out to about $700 per month...


Either way you're still looking at around $50k for a decent home.


----------



## The Paw

wr said:


> He's not as rare as one would believe and I could offer dozens more. After dozens of pages of debate, the reality is that most people are not adverse to helping out those that need it but many of us resent the idea that those who abuse the system are stealing from taxpayers and those who are truly vulnerable.
> 
> I can't speak for the US but in Canada, there was a time when the government employed people to ensure cheaters were not abusing the system and taxpayers were in favour. Now it seems we should accept that the government is too busy to check on cheaters and a few bad apples don't cost that much anyhow.


Early in my career, the Manitoba government of Gary Filmon audited hundreds of welfare/social assistance files with external auditors from KPMG or Price Waterhouse. The assumption was that they would find all kinds of fraud and cheating of the taxpayer. In fact, they found instances of fraud or misapplication of benefits in less than 1% of the audited files.

Now, to give skeptics the benefit of the doubt, lets assume the high school dropouts and ne'er-do-wells are sufficiently crafty to outwit forensic chartered accountants 10 times for every time they get caught. Even in that scenario, 90% of recipients would be compliant.

It is an extreme injustice to coat the 90% with the stigma of the scam artists. In the study of logic, it's what is called the fallacy of hasty generalization. Yes, there are cheats. But focusing on the few instances where those occur to form a policy that damages the vast majority of recipients is wrong headed. And if in the face of evidence, we insist that our own anecdotal observations are more accurate, we're not being intellectually honest. We should have systems that put reasonable checks and accountabilities in place, but some loss to fraud is simply a cost of doing business. We don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


----------



## shawnlee

AmericanStand said:


> Yes if we eliminated abuse there would be more money left for all of us.
> I believe your chef friend is a rare item. If he wasn’t nobody would be working



What we believe has no bearing on reality,..only our perceptions of it.


----------



## AmericanStand

The Paw said:


> Early in my career, the Manitoba government of Gary Filmon audited hundreds of welfare/social assistance files with external auditors from KPMG or Price Waterhouse. The assumption was that they would find all kinds of fraud and cheating of the taxpayer. In fact, they found instances of fraud or misapplication of benefits in less than 1% of the audited files.
> 
> Now, to give skeptics the benefit of the doubt, lets assume the high school dropouts and ne'er-do-wells are sufficiently crafty to outwit forensic chartered accountants 10 times for every time they get caught. Even in that scenario, 90% of recipients would be compliant.
> 
> It is an extreme injustice to coat the 90% with the stigma of the scam artists. In the study of logic, it's what is called the fallacy of hasty generalization. Yes, there are cheats. But focusing on the few instances where those occur to form a policy that damages the vast majority of recipients is wrong headed. And if in the face of evidence, we insist that our own anecdotal observations are more accurate, we're not being intellectually honest. We should have systems that put reasonable checks and accountabilities in place, but some loss to fraud is simply a cost of doing business. We don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


 Illinois did much the same and reported much the same results. Further inquiry into those cases deemed fraudulent pointed out that many of them were simply mistakes on the part of the intake worker not actual fraudulent intent on the part of the applicant. 
So I believe the frog level was far less than 10%


----------



## AmericanStand

shawnlee said:


> What we believe has no bearing on reality,..only our perceptions of it.


 True enough but simply knowing of one case or even a few dozen or even mini dozen Does not create a common occurrence in a program involving many millions.


----------



## AmericanStand

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Either way you're still looking at around $50k for a decent home.


As they say your mileage and in this case location location location may vary.


----------



## shawnlee

The Paw said:


> Early in my career, the Manitoba government of Gary Filmon audited hundreds of welfare/social assistance files with external auditors from KPMG or Price Waterhouse. The assumption was that they would find all kinds of fraud and cheating of the taxpayer. In fact, they found instances of fraud or misapplication of benefits in less than 1% of the audited files.
> 
> Now, to give skeptics the benefit of the doubt, lets assume the high school dropouts and ne'er-do-wells are sufficiently crafty to outwit forensic chartered accountants 10 times for every time they get caught. Even in that scenario, 90% of recipients would be compliant.
> 
> It is an extreme injustice to coat the 90% with the stigma of the scam artists. In the study of logic, it's what is called the fallacy of hasty generalization. Yes, there are cheats. But focusing on the few instances where those occur to form a policy that damages the vast majority of recipients is wrong headed. And if in the face of evidence, we insist that our own anecdotal observations are more accurate, we're not being intellectually honest. We should have systems that put reasonable checks and accountabilities in place, but some loss to fraud is simply a cost of doing business. We don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


 I bet that number would drastically change with a outside entity conducting the audits,....


Most people have a very limited perspective from a given area,...….if you could only travel for the next 30 years and meet people and know people from the down and dirty to the elite,...you have a better picture of reality.


----------



## AmericanStand

shawnlee said:


> Sorry, we are not in a court of law, with convoluted double talk, precedents and crooked judges.
> 
> 
> I would be willing to bet the wife, the kids and most importantly,...the dog on that.
> 
> 
> In fact, I think you would be very very hard pressed to find one single person not cheating something in some way, the size and scope might vary,...,.,.from finding a quarter that is not yours to bilking millions out the back door,...the innocent are very very few when speaking of adults.


I can agree I suppose that’s why there’s no honest cops.

However I don’t believe that a secretary taking home a government pencil ruins the entire program


----------



## AmericanStand

shawnlee said:


> I bet that number would drastically change with a outside entity conducting the audits,....
> 
> 
> Most people have a very limited perspective from a given area,...….if you could only travel for the next 30 years and meet people and know people from the down and dirty to the elite,...you have a better picture of reality.


I believe they said it was an outside entity ( Price Waterhouse ) not exactly known as a bastion of liberals , what more do you want?


----------



## shawnlee

AmericanStand said:


> True enough but simply knowing of one case or even a few dozen or even mini dozen Does not create a common occurrence in a program involving many millions.


 It does when you share those stories with other people in the know and they confirm their experience mirrors yours,...…..


Even with a 40% success rate,...those are impressive numbers helped that actually need it, so many do need help and get it,......but to dismiss abuse like it is the exception and not rampant is not a very accurate picture.


----------



## AmericanStand

mreynolds said:


> Not credible????
> 
> So you think every government employee is an angel? No one takes bribes or kickbacks? No one has a company hire their kid or nephew? Halliburton contacts in Iraq were because of competitive bids? PACS don't pay money to crooked politicians?
> 
> You are not acting credible.


There is a world of a difference between asserting that everyone is cheating and asserting that no one is cheating.


----------



## AmericanStand

mreynolds said:


> Not credible????
> 
> So you think every government employee is an angel? No one takes bribes or kickbacks? No one has a company hire their kid or nephew? Halliburton contacts in Iraq were because of competitive bids? PACS don't pay money to crooked politicians?
> 
> You are not acting credible.


I think that it’s not credible that every government Employee is stealing from their program. I think that it’s not credible that every government program is full of left and graft and bribery. 
You were the one that made the absolute assertion I just think it takes a lot of proof to prove an absolute


----------



## wr

AmericanStand said:


> Dozens ?
> If that is true he is infinitely rare.
> 
> I can sure agree with the rest of your post


Dozens is a fact. Check out some of those panhandlers you see on street corners. It's not called running a trapline for nothing. When they're done 'work' they change out of the panhandling clothes at the nearest gas station, jump in their car and head for home.


----------



## shawnlee

AmericanStand said:


> I can agree I suppose that’s why there’s no honest cops.
> 
> However I don’t believe that a secretary taking home a government pencil ruins the entire program


 I get that and most people are good with that,.....


I guess everything's perfect and we need no reforms......everyone on these systems is happy, everyone is getting what they need,.....everything is dandy,....we only have outliers and no pattern. 


The things is, that does not explain all the people in need who do not get, all those who get but openly say they cheated to get it, all the news article showing abuses and frauds from within,......peoples first hand experiences of fraud and corruption.


If the cheater is the exception and most are just taking pencils,......why is it even a conversation, it would be like worrying about a moth on the screen while the ants and roaches invade the larder.



This tells me there is a skewed perception here,...one opinion/perception is very far off base.


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## shawnlee

wr said:


> Dozens is a fact. Check out some of those panhandlers you see on street corners. It's not called running a trapline for nothing. When they're done 'work' they change out of the panhandling clothes at the nearest gas station, jump in their car and head for home.


 There are many of those here in Cali,....they even share children and dogs , for a small fee of course, to loosen the pockets of the kind hearted.

The best one was when my girlfriend offered a large sack, 50 pounds, of dog food to one of them with 3 dogs...….I guess it was a bad day for him, because he snarked back, I have plenty of that at home, I need money...….I guess even the easy life has bad days...lol


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## HDRider

The Paw said:


> Early in my career, the Manitoba government of Gary Filmon audited hundreds of welfare/social assistance files with external auditors from KPMG or Price Waterhouse. The assumption was that they would find all kinds of fraud and cheating of the taxpayer. In fact, they found instances of fraud or misapplication of benefits in less than 1% of the audited files.
> 
> Now, to give skeptics the benefit of the doubt, lets assume the high school dropouts and ne'er-do-wells are sufficiently crafty to outwit forensic chartered accountants 10 times for every time they get caught. Even in that scenario, 90% of recipients would be compliant.
> 
> It is an extreme injustice to coat the 90% with the stigma of the scam artists. In the study of logic, it's what is called the fallacy of hasty generalization. Yes, there are cheats. But focusing on the few instances where those occur to form a policy that damages the vast majority of recipients is wrong headed. And if in the face of evidence, we insist that our own anecdotal observations are more accurate, we're not being intellectually honest. We should have systems that put reasonable checks and accountabilities in place, but some loss to fraud is simply a cost of doing business. We don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


Maybe 90% are legit, but,,, Back in the USA

Improper *welfare* payments, including *fraud*, are estimated to be 10.6% of all federal *welfare *payments made and totaled $77.3 billion in fiscal year 2017.

Department of Health and Human Services sent out a warning that improper payments under Medicaid have become so common that they will account this year for almost 12 percent of total Medicaid spending — almost $200 billion


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## HermitJohn

Yvonne's hubby said:


> There is nothing "unsafe" about knob and tube wiring.


Not if its newly installed with new materials. Does Lowes and Home Depot now carry new knob and tube wiring supplies made in China to keep it safe? Cause you do realize knob and tube is getting up towards 100 years old now? And hasnt been used since at least WWII. I have seen that old cloth insulation literally fall off the wires completely rotten. Far as I know you cant buy new replacement wiring with cloth insulation to make it original yet safe. Best thing to do with that old cloth covered wire is pull it out, strip off the cloth and use the bare copper for other purposes. Bare copper wire can be quite handy.


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## newfieannie

wr said:


> Dozens is a fact. Check out some of those panhandlers you see on street corners. It's not called running a trapline for nothing. When they're done 'work' they change out of the panhandling clothes at the nearest gas station, jump in their car and head for home.



that's definitely a fact. I see it every week 3 blocks away outside the supermarket. also some of them are working for one guy(maybe all for all I know) they have a certain amt to make every day which they turn in to him. himself he lives in one of the high rises.I found this out a couple months ago.


----------



## HermitJohn

newfieannie said:


> that's definitely a fact. I see it every week 3 blocks away outside the supermarket. also some of them are working for one guy(maybe all for all I know) they have a certain amt to make every day which they turn in to him. himself he lives in one of the high rises.I found this out a couple months ago.


Hmmm, Oliver Twist on a larger scale?


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## Danaus29

wr said:


> Dozens is a fact. Check out some of those panhandlers you see on street corners. It's not called running a trapline for nothing. When they're done 'work' they change out of the panhandling clothes at the nearest gas station, jump in their car and head for home.


I looked to see if I could find an estimate of how many panhandlers are operating in some cities and all I found were articles about how many of them are actually able-bodied people who are professional beggars because they make so much money doing it. Tax free, no income listed so they still get other govt assistance. I would guess the numbers are closer to hundreds per large city. I know if you go to the courthouse in Franklin county Ohio you will have to step over or around at least a dozen, if the weather is nice, depending on the time of day. This is just a small 100 foot or so section of sidewalk. There are a dozen I recognize on sight that are regulars at various places where I shop. Note, these are not the same people. The ones at the courthouse are not the ones who beg on the outer edges of the city.


----------



## mreynolds

AmericanStand said:


> There is a world of a difference between asserting that everyone is cheating and asserting that no one is cheating.


He never said everyone is cheating. He said universally in every government program someone is cheating.


----------



## The Paw

HDRider said:


> Maybe 90% are legit, but,,, Back in the USA
> 
> Improper *welfare* payments, including *fraud*, are estimated to be 10.6% of all federal *welfare *payments made and totaled $77.3 billion in fiscal year 2017.
> 
> Department of Health and Human Services sent out a warning that improper payments under Medicaid have become so common that they will account this year for almost 12 percent of total Medicaid spending — almost $200 billion


Accepting your figures, that means those programs are 88% to 90% efficient. A passing grade in any class. And improper payments includes fraud by the actual poor person, but it also includes honest mistakes by administrators, and fraud by HMOs or corrupt physicians or pharmacists. Hard to pin that on the poor person.

We should absolutely strive to improve on those numbers. But I think they actually support my original point, that it is completely unfair to be bashing the poor with these dog food anecdotes and stories of beggars secretly dressed in silk beneath their rags. Those memes are building stereotypes of the poor as unworthy, and it’s essentially propaganda to deflect from how badly we treat the poor in two of the richest countries on earth.


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## Bearfootfarm




----------



## AmericanStand

mreynolds said:


> He never said everyone is cheating. He said universally in every government program someone is cheating.


 No he said something like universally and at every program theft runs rampant at every level.


----------



## Evons hubby

HermitJohn said:


> Not if its newly installed with new materials. Does Lowes and Home Depot now carry new knob and tube wiring supplies made in China to keep it safe? Cause you do realize knob and tube is getting up towards 100 years old now? And hasnt been used since at least WWII. I have seen that old cloth insulation literally fall off the wires completely rotten. Far as I know you cant buy new replacement wiring with cloth insulation to make it original yet safe. Best thing to do with that old cloth covered wire is pull it out, strip off the cloth and use the bare copper for other purposes. Bare copper wire can be quite handy.


I don't know about lowes and Home Depot but several hardware stores in my area still carry knob and tube supply's


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## AmericanStand

Yep here too


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## GTX63

AmericanStand said:


> No he said something like universally and at every program theft runs rampant at every level.


There are good hearted people working hard in social services with the best intentions all over the country. They are the cogs in a machine they have no control over. Cynicism and burnout are common.
We were involved in one case in your own state where the director, rather than face public scandal over some "misappropriations, and tarnish their program, was moved into a position as head of the park district and on a board with the mayor. This was done at the behest of the Governor of Illinois at the time. I don't recall which one, but he is one of several Illinois Governors currently in prison.


----------



## Evons hubby

GTX63 said:


> There are good hearted people working hard in social services with the best intentions all over the country. They are the cogs in a machine they have no control over. Cynicism and burnout are common.
> We were involved in one case in your own state where the director, rather than face public scandal over some "misappropriations, and tarnish their program, was moved into a position as head of the park district and on a board with the mayor. This was done at the behest of the Governor of Illinois at the time. I don't recall which one, but he is one of several Illinois Governors currently in prison.


Most likely he was "promoted" to a different dept that had more excess cash he could misappropriate.


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## GTX63

Open ended, infinite setups like snap and section 8 are flawed from conception.
They aren't programs that measure progress; There is no endgame, no long game, no light at the end of the tunnel. These "services" are invasive weeds that become a lifestyle. In more than just a few cases, multigenerational lifestyles.
They penalize two parent households, the entitlements encourage single mothers to raise more children, which in turn retards their ability to do any more than remain in the same state at 40 as they were at 17.
Caseworkers see this, landlords see this, the administration sees this. Some lament it, some ignore it, some wallow in it.
No one ever proposes a cure.
Entitlements are not about ending any fictitious war on hunger or homelessness. 
It is all about the money and sadly, the biggest losers are the recipients, their families and their generation.


----------



## GTX63

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Most likely he was "promoted" to a different dept that had more excess cash he could misappropriate.


Department heads and administrators that we met with, were in many, many cases, nothing more than figure heads and appointees who had little to no experience with the organizations they were overseeing.


----------



## Evons hubby

GTX63 said:


> Department heads and administrators that we met with, were in many, many cases, nothing more than figure heads and appointees who had little to no experience with the organizations they were overseeing.


Most gov heads are like that. Might be why the gov has a lousy track record at actually solving problems.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

AmericanStand said:


> You were the one that made the *absolute assertion* I just think it takes a lot of proof to prove *an absolute*


I'm not seeing your proof.



AmericanStand said:


> I can agree I suppose that’s why there’s *no honest cops*.


----------



## mreynolds

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I don't know about lowes and Home Depot but several hardware stores in my area still carry knob and tube supply's


Did you have to drive the Delorean to pick it up? 

I have never seen knob and tube at the hardware store. Back in the day we couldn't insulate the house because of fire hazard if it had it in it. The heat building with the added insulation could cause fire.


----------



## Illinois Sucks

GTX63 said:


> Open ended, infinite setups like snap and section 8 are flawed from conception.
> They aren't programs that measure progress; There is no endgame, no long game, no light at the end of the tunnel. These "services" are invasive weeds that become a lifestyle. In more than just a few cases, multigenerational lifestyles.
> They penalize two parent households, the entitlements encourage single mothers to raise more children, which in turn retards their ability to do any more than remain in the same state at 40 as they were at 17.
> Caseworkers see this, landlords see this, the administration sees this. Some lament it, some ignore it, some wallow in it.
> No one ever proposes a cure.
> Entitlements are not about ending any fictitious war on hunger or homelessness.
> It is all about the money and sadly, the biggest losers are the recipients, their families and their generation.


Start making these people of working age work for their benefits.
I like the mandatory drug testing ideas.


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## HermitJohn

mreynolds said:


> Did you have to drive the Delorean to pick it up?
> 
> I have never seen knob and tube at the hardware store. Back in the day we couldn't insulate the house because of fire hazard if it had it in it. The heat building with the added insulation could cause fire.


He may have one of those old independent hardware stores that has been in biz forever. Its be 20 years ago when local one here finally sold out with auction. They had parts for horse drawn equipment and all kinds of bits and pieces from the past. All NOS. Gold mine for some antique collectors. Rare you can buy brand new off the shelf stuff from century ago.

I dont know about his local laws but usually where there are enforced codes, if you do more than minor repairs, it has to be to current code. Knob and tube is not current code. Now there are still rural areas where theoretically national code applies, but its not enforced, and if there are permits, its mostly for the revenue, nobody does serious inspections.

Also even after knob and tube, the pre-plastic, cloth "romex" is also getting crumbly. Would imagine even early plastic insulated wiring is getting brittle and dangerous. I suspect in not distant future, houses will be required to be rewired and maybe replumbed every few decades before they are deemed livable. 

Honest for my own safety if I bought some old derelict house, I would not hook up electric to ancient wiring. I would run new basic wiring externally on room walls in conduit to new breaker box. Should be legal and safe from rodents, though imagine any locale where I would live wouldnt have code enforcement. Be up to electric company. Anyway I am cheap and I sure dont trust 100 year old wiring. Dont much want to burn up in my bed. talk about an inconvenient nightmare.


----------



## mreynolds

HermitJohn said:


> He may have one of those old independent hardware stores that has been in biz forever. Its be 20 years ago when local one here finally sold out with auction. They had parts for horse drawn equipment and all kinds of bits and pieces from the past. All NOS. Gold mine for some antique collectors. Rare you can buy brand new off the shelf stuff from century ago.
> 
> I dont know about his local laws but usually where there are enforced codes, if you do more than minor repairs, it has to be to current code. Knob and tube is not current code. Now there are still rural areas where theoretically national code applies, but its not enforced, and if there are permits, its mostly for the revenue, nobody does serious inspections.
> 
> Also even after knob and tube, the pre-plastic, cloth "romex" is also getting crumbly. Would imagine even early plastic insulated wiring is getting brittle and dangerous. I suspect in not distant future, houses will be required to be rewired and maybe replumbed every few decades before they are deemed livable.
> 
> Honest for my own safety if I bought some old derelict house, I would not hook up electric to ancient wiring. I would run new basic wiring externally on room walls in conduit to new breaker box. Should be legal and safe from rodents, though imagine any locale where I would live wouldnt have code enforcement. Be up to electric company. Anyway I am cheap and I sure dont trust 100 year old wiring. Dont much want to burn up in my bed. talk about an inconvenient nightmare.


Yes even though the thhn that is stranded is still ok with code most electrical engineer are specifying solid wire now. Soon it will be code also. 

Things change as technology advances. I have even seen electrified houses that had really old knob and tube with no insulation on the wire. Be careful walking in the Attic on that one. At least there are no snakes in that attic.


----------



## Fishindude

Illinois Sucks said:


> Start making these people of working age work for their benefits.
> I like the mandatory drug testing ideas.


Couldn't agree more. If you are able bodied and taking these benefits, there is no reason that the taxpayers shouldn't be getting some work out of you. Plenty of work out there; picking up trash along the roads and rivers, mowing and maintaining the cemeteries and parks, shoveling snow from the city sidewalks, driving the senior bus, cleaning up condemned properties, etc., etc. Would save our local governments a bunch of money, because we are now paying people to do all of these things and we never have enough money to do it all.I

Anytime you give somebody something for free for an extended period, it soon becomes unappreciated. Also - "Idle hands are the devils workshop". Busy, productive people tend to stay out of trouble.


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## Evons hubby

Idle hands can also catch fish.


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## light rain

HDRider said:


>


It is just logical. Two salaries are a safety net if one partner cannot work and a source of stability when children arrive. Stability in both financial and emotional support areas. That is if EACH spouse chose wisely...
First time I didn't. Second time I did...


----------



## light rain

HDRider said:


> There are a few hundred of these.


She did not appreciate being filmed, at all! Shame? Fear of more facts available to the public?

She said she was disabled but she moved incredibly fast to the poor window attendant for assistance. The window attendant who got up that morning, got herself to work to support herself and maybe other family members. A lady who WORKS to pay her bills and has to put up with trying customer situations daily...


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## Bearfootfarm

HermitJohn said:


> Knob and tube is not current code.


That depends on where you live.


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## GrannyCarol

I haven't read the whole thing, may not have time to do so, but an Instant Pot can be gotten new for about $70 and would do this perfectly. You can cook almost any cheap stuff and have it turn out great in your IP, too. It makes wonderful soups and there are thousands of great recipes online or in books at a library for using it. 

Also, if you want good protein for cheap, buy eggs. For about $5 at Costco you can buy a 5 dozen carton of eggs and have two a day per person for the month. They are full of healthy fat and protein. 

All the information one might need to learn to cook simple food can be found on all those cell phone in a few minutes after all!

Carol



HermitJohn said:


> https://shop.honeyville.com/9-grain-cracked-cereal.html as an example.
> 
> Way I got to cooking grain back when I could eat grain, before diabetes. I put the trivet in bottom of pressure cooker, put inch water in, then put stainless bowl on the trivet. In the stainless bowl, the grain plus appropriate water. Been too long since I have cooked grain, but think it was two parts water to one part grain. Anyway this double boiler type way made cleanup easy and results were as good as best rice cooker. Far better than open unpressurized pot on top of stove.


----------



## Danaus29

According to this site, knob and tube is not against the National Electrical Code but there are very strict regulations when using it.
https://artisanelectric.net/blog/tag/is-knob-and-tube-legal/
Just like 2 prong outlets are not exactly against code, it is specific about how they can be used.

My grandparents house had knob and tube, an old fuse box, aluminum wire with cloth cover and old push button light switches. They had to run a lot of wires and a breaker box when they installed electric heat. I bet it cost a bundle. They never updated the old wiring.


----------



## mreynolds

Danaus29 said:


> According to this site, knob and tube is not against the National Electrical Code but there are very strict regulations when using it.
> https://artisanelectric.net/blog/tag/is-knob-and-tube-legal/
> Just like 2 prong outlets are not exactly against code, it is specific about how they can be used.
> 
> My grandparents house had knob and tube, an old fuse box, aluminum wire with cloth cover and old push button light switches. They had to run a lot of wires and a breaker box when they installed electric heat. I bet it cost a bundle. They never updated the old wiring.


Notice In your link the no insulation.


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## Danaus29

Yep, even with insulated wires you cannot put insulation around the system. Those wires get hot and cannot be covered with insulation.


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## lmrose

I remember being 24 yrs, pregnant with three other children under five. We lived in a third floor flat; the only occupants in a building on 14th street in Detroit. This was what happened to us after a fraudulent marriage breakup. I had little money and never heard of food stamps at that time. We were eating oatmeal, instant potatoes and powdered milk and that diet made us sick. I met some good people who helped us get moved to a smaller city and I learned about food stamps . I also found part time work; rented where I could have a garden. That time in Detroit was one if not the worse time of my life because I had children to feed and hardly any food. I had been destitute when I was younger but it is a whole different stress and problem when I had children dependent on me to provide for them. That experience in Detroit taught me one important lesson; that was I was going to live somewhere I could grow something to eat. What I didn't know I would learn because I was determined we would never go hungry again. When I did find a house rent to buy I dug up most of the back yard with a shovel and planted a garden. Around the perimeter of the house grew potatoes. In the flower beds I grew carrots and beets.Every spare piece of ground was used. The garden wasn't prolific like our garden here and it was back breaking work. A friend came to help with the digging. We didn't have a lot but we ate and I learned to can and preserve food.What I didn't already know I learned from books at the library. I also went to stores when they were throwing out baked goods and fruit and got them before they hit the dumpster. I survived and my children thrived and all learned to work. They learned the direct connection between the green earth and their need for food. If you get hungry enough you will learn how to feed yourself. My only advantage was being raised by my Grandma who was born in 1880 and taught me many old ways. She instilled in me; " Where there is a will there is a way."and my Daddy always said;"Never quit or give up!" But to never quit or give up you first must be doing something. Too many people today give up trying to take care of themselves before they ever start!


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## GTX63

Thank you Imrose.
A very inspiring post to start the day.
God bless.


----------



## red1

Irish Pixie said:


> Please support your local food bank, so many families rely on it.
> 
> "Millions of working Americans don’t know where their next meal is coming from. We sent three photographers to explore hunger in three very different parts of the United States, each giving different faces to the same statistic: One-sixth of Americans don’t have enough food to eat."
> 
> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/hunger/


I give to the one in wichita..on occasion. There should be no hunger by anyone on this planet...But some places like to 
keep the country under control with food..An friend and I were talking about investing..smart investing. Slow gradual roi. But he had invested quite a sum in what sounded like a 'sure deal'. Potash plant in some african nation with poor and hungry people. The plant was supposed to help yields..put more food on the table..My friend said the govt vetoed the plant..no reason given but it was widely accepted the ruling party prefered his countryman to say hungry...easier to control....
I believe it...And with the combination of global worming and clueless politicians, this country could see more hunger..even in the middle classes...Shortages of water too...
You can't keep putting cattle into a pasture just because it looks like there is enough room...There are not infinite resources..


----------



## HDRider

lmrose said:


> I remember being 24 yrs, pregnant with three other children under five. We lived in a third floor flat; the only occupants in a building on 14th street in Detroit. This was what happened to us after a fraudulent marriage breakup. I had little money and never heard of food stamps at that time. We were eating oatmeal, instant potatoes and powdered milk and that diet made us sick. I met some good people who helped us get moved to a smaller city and I learned about food stamps . I also found part time work; rented where I could have a garden. That time in Detroit was one if not the worse time of my life because I had children to feed and hardly any food. I had been destitute when I was younger but it is a whole different stress and problem when I had children dependent on me to provide for them. That experience in Detroit taught me one important lesson; that was I was going to live somewhere I could grow something to eat. What I didn't know I would learn because I was determined we would never go hungry again. When I did find a house rent to buy I dug up most of the back yard with a shovel and planted a garden. Around the perimeter of the house grew potatoes. In the flower beds I grew carrots and beets.Every spare piece of ground was used. The garden wasn't prolific like our garden here and it was back breaking work. A friend came to help with the digging. We didn't have a lot but we ate and I learned to can and preserve food.What I didn't already know I learned from books at the library. I also went to stores when they were throwing out baked goods and fruit and got them before they hit the dumpster. I survived and my children thrived and all learned to work. They learned the direct connection between the green earth and their need for food. If you get hungry enough you will learn how to feed yourself. My only advantage was being raised by my Grandma who was born in 1880 and taught me many old ways. She instilled in me; " Where there is a will there is a way."and my Daddy always said;"Never quit or give up!" But to never quit or give up you first must be doing something. Too many people today give up trying to take care of themselves before they ever start!


Very inspiring


----------



## mreynolds

AmericanStand said:


> You know the vast majority of snap recipients cannot do public service work ? mostly because they’re already at two or three jobs trying to earn a living.
> Now are you going to tell me that the hard-working man or Hoochie mama that spent all day of 12 hours digging ditches in the hot sun shouldn’t be allowed to have a cigarette or a beer that he buys with his own cash?
> 
> Do you even know that that Hoochie mama is buying food stamps food for herself? Perhaps when she drives away in that Lincoln it’s to deliver the food to her destitute disabled veteran next-door neighbor? Do you follow these people Home to see what’s actually going on?



So, why is it "hard working man and "Hoochie Mama"? Why not hard working woman and Hoochie man?


----------



## Ridgetop

Our 4H club used to collect food donations and deliver them to the food pantry in our small town in Los Angeles County. A lot of the people that come to the food bank are homeless and mentally disabled (won't go to a shelter). They have no way to cook since they live on the streets. Our food bank routinely asks for personal hygiene products as well as diapers.

We have many people on welfare and assistance to fatherless children. We had a big scandal with people using their EBT cards in Las Vegas casinos and on cruises. 

I have been in line behind people shopping with EBT cards and food stamps buying groceries. They bought food with the food stamps/EBT cards, *but then they bought lots of beer, wine, liquor, and cigarettes with cash. *Most fast food places advertise accepting EBT cards as do the 7-11s and convenience stores. 

When we had an apartment we had about 1/3 Section 8 tenants. Section is free or subsidized housing for welfare recipients. Some are handicapped but ours were welfare mothers with fatherless children. Their apartments were free, they received free healthcare, received a monthly stipend for each child. They all had cars and even the children had cellphones. When we had to enter the apartments for repairs, they all had computers, large screen TVs, and expensive electronic equipment. They were also the most demanding of the tenants, and the rudest. One woman came looking for a Section 8 apartment in a late model Mercedes wearing diamonds and complaining that the amount the government wanted to allow her was to low!

In our Los Angeles County, California, school district low income children are given free lunch tickets. Breakfast is supplied to everyone arriving early. Many of the low income kids in the high school refuse to eat the school lunches, preferring soda and fast food. They offer to sell the tickets to other kids. At the beginning of school my 5 children would take $20 to school and buy a full year of lunch tickets from those kids. My kids ate the school lunches. The low income kids said they wouldn't eat the free lunches because they weren't good enough lunches for them. We milked our own goats, our chickens laid eggs, and we raised rabbits and other meat, and my kids ate school lunches for $20 a year. If they did not buy the lunch tickets, the low income kids just threw them in the trash.

Two of our governors wanted to make welfare for able bodied people dependent on them having to work at east 20 hours a week but the ACLU sued the state on the grounds that these the government had to give it to them, and couldn't require them to earn it! 

Living in ultra liberal California with some of the highest taxes that go to support the largest welfare numbers in the country, combined with the largest population of homeless living on our streets and dumping their refuse and toilets into our gutters has given us a whole new feeling toward the "poor". 

I feel compassion towards those that are truly needy, but most of them are just willing to take. Those that work hard pull themselves out of that cycle. Too many just enjoy what big government gives them and milk if for all it is worth. 

I applaud Irish Pixie for her kindness, but reality is harsh and you have to learn to work for what you need and want. My husband lost his job one year and we lived on my income eating Lipton dry soup and coffee for 6 months until he found anther job. We seldom eat out and I clothed my kids from the thrift store, charity bags, and K-Mart. We scrimped and saved to get where we are and when I hear people moaning about not having money for new cars, vacations, or shopping at the mall I have no sympathy. We now have a good retirement earned by years of work and saving, and I do not feel guilty about what I have. There are jobs out there but a lot of people won't take a minimum wage job. High school and college kids in particular don't want to do anything requiring hard work, and seem to have an inflated idea of what they are worth with no skills. 

That is my opinion and I stand by it.


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## Bearfootfarm

mreynolds said:


> So, why is it "hard working man and "Hoochie Mama"? Why not hard working woman and Hoochie man?


Maybe the 2" fingernails give them away.


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## AmericanStand

mreynolds said:


> So, why is it "hard working man and "Hoochie Mama"? Why not hard working woman and Hoochie man?


Because it was a reply to another post specifically called out a Hoochie mama. The truth of the matter is there are probably more hard-working single mothers on food stamps than anything else. 
Lots of the women working at hospitals and nursing homes qualify for food stamps


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## AmericanStand

It would worry me a lot if my children were purchasing free lunch coupons.
Using them would be a fraud and the buying would be a conspiracy to defraud the government Since it involves two people The way the world is nowadays some overzealous assistant attorney would jump on it and you would wind up with a couple of eight-year-old felons.


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## IndyDave

The Paw said:


> Early in my career, the Manitoba government of Gary Filmon audited hundreds of welfare/social assistance files with external auditors from KPMG or Price Waterhouse. The assumption was that they would find all kinds of fraud and cheating of the taxpayer. In fact, they found instances of fraud or misapplication of benefits in less than 1% of the audited files.
> 
> Now, to give skeptics the benefit of the doubt, lets assume the high school dropouts and ne'er-do-wells are sufficiently crafty to outwit forensic chartered accountants 10 times for every time they get caught. Even in that scenario, 90% of recipients would be compliant.
> 
> It is an extreme injustice to coat the 90% with the stigma of the scam artists. In the study of logic, it's what is called the fallacy of hasty generalization. Yes, there are cheats. But focusing on the few instances where those occur to form a policy that damages the vast majority of recipients is wrong headed. And if in the face of evidence, we insist that our own anecdotal observations are more accurate, we're not being intellectually honest. We should have systems that put reasonable checks and accountabilities in place, but some loss to fraud is simply a cost of doing business. We don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


This is in general a good post but I see a few issues. No matter how good an auditor may be there are invisible ways to move money. The only way to catch such fraud is to find expenses exveeding the ostensible means supporting them. Consequently, if a cheat is spending the surplus money on drugs, alcohol, prostitutes, vacations paid in cash, or living large(er) somewhere other than his/her official residence or having one designated person not on the system holding title to traceable goods, it would nearly impossible to find and prove. That said, I don't believe that every other recipient is engaged in fraud, but I doubt that the actual percentage is that low.


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## shawnlee

AmericanStand said:


> It would worry me a lot if my children were purchasing free lunch coupons.
> Using them would be a fraud and the buying would be a conspiracy to defraud the government Since it involves two people The way the world is nowadays some overzealous assistant attorney would jump on it and you would wind up with a couple of eight-year-old felons.



Why not make them terrorists and sex offenders too...…...for pulling the fire alarm and kissing sally behind the oak tree.....


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## AmericanStand

Yeah those are all buzzwords nowadays it seemed it justified destroying peoples lives for almost nothing


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## AmericanStand

I have two friends were serving life sentences as sex offenders one of them was seduced by a 15-year-old girl when he was 19 the other one had sex with a 14-year-old girl until they were married Against his mother-in-law’s wishes and she brought charges he is. the same age as his wife. 
Neither will ever be able to go to a play at their children school take the kids to the park or go to a carnival. 
But their classmate who killed his own child can do all of these things .


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## whiterock

I've known of other situations like you mentioned in the first paragraph. Bad situations where one carries a label for life when they didn't deserve it.


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## The Paw

IndyDave said:


> This is in general a good post but I see a few issues. No matter how good an auditor may be there are invisible ways to move money. The only way to catch such fraud is to find expenses exveeding the ostensible means supporting them. Consequently, if a cheat is spending the surplus money on drugs, alcohol, prostitutes, vacations paid in cash, or living large(er) somewhere other than his/her official residence or having one designated person not on the system holding title to traceable goods, it would nearly impossible to find and prove. That said, I don't believe that every other recipient is engaged in fraud, but I doubt that the actual percentage is that low.


Fair enough. But earlier in the thread someone cited audits that found closer to 10%, which I am happy to accept since it means the program is 90% on target. (Although that includes misused funds that benefited the vendor not the recipient, and also included administrative mistakes rather than fraud).

Most of the stories about benefits being laundered, or outright instances of fraud, are more urban myth. The degree to which they happen is so small, as to be largely insignificant, other than to fuel moral outrage by those who like to judge the poor.

Over the course of my career, I have known and worked with hundreds of families on public assistance. I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of rule-breaking instances are one of two things:

1. Single mothers who get into a relationship with a man who moves into the household, and the new man isn’t disclosed to their social worker. They don’t disclose, because it may get their benefits disrupted or reduced, and these relationships are often on-again, off-again. Sometimes the guy has income, sometimes not. The actual financial impact on the welfare program is statistically insignificant, but the potential financial disruption to benefits can result in severe hardship to the mother and her kids. Getting back on benefits isn’t automatic, and you can end up losing your apartment, etc. Technically a breaking of the rules, but actually a sound parenting decision IMHO.

2. Working under the table. This is usually a temporary or part time job with zero stability. When you declare income while on benefits, you are usually allowed a $50 or $100 that you can earn, and anything over that is clawed back dollar for dollar. This creates little incentive to take on work unless it is a stable full time gig (rarely the case). I have seen a community casual labor project, where they had $200 bucks of work and 3 guys. Each of the guys was allowed to earn $50. They spent half a day searching for a fourth guy so the income wouldn’t go to waste, getting clawed back. That sounds crazy and bizarre, but when you look at it from their angle, it’s a rational economic decision. So rather than jump through hoops like this project, some guys would take work off the books.

This post is too long, so I won’t get started on welfare dependency (yes, it’s a thing) other than to say that reducing it isn’t accomplished by cutting people off, booting them in the butt, or other punitive measures.


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## HermitJohn

I am still amazed somebody is worried somebody bought a candy bar with SNAP, yet zero concern of their tax dollars going to some of wealthiest companies in world. Oh well, easier to blame the poor. Its all meritocracy, those wealthy corporations earned their taxpayer handouts. Poor starving CEO's.....


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## doc-

There's always fraud with any govt program, and many govt programs only exist because someone who's gunna make a fortune off it knew how to lobby and get the program enacted. (Eg- American RR system, "green energy companies" like Solyndra & Tesla, etc etc.). But there are many good programs and maybe we just gotta accept some fraud as part of the cost of doing business.

When the Clinton Admin re-wrote the Healthcare funding laws, they set up a pilot program to investigate Medicare fraud. It was discontinued after two yrs because they found the program cost twice as much as the value of the fraud they found. (Most fraud was inadvertent due to naïve errors caused by the unnecessarily complicated coding system.) 

I've often wondered what would happen if they changed the system of govt funding so we all paid the same taxes as now, but got to chose which programs we each wanted our money to go towards. I bet that would quickly eliminate a whole lot of pork programs.


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## Irish Pixie

doc- said:


> There's always fraud with any govt program, and many govt programs only exist because someone who's gunna make a fortune off it knew how to lobby and get the program enacted. (Eg- American RR system, "green energy companies" like Solyndra & Tesla, etc etc.). But there are many good programs and maybe we just gotta accept some fraud as part of the cost of doing business.
> 
> When the Clinton Admin re-wrote the Healthcare funding laws, they set up a pilot program to investigate Medicare fraud. It was discontinued after two yrs because they found the program cost twice as much as the value of the fraud they found. (Most fraud was inadvertent due to naïve errors caused by the unnecessarily complicated coding system.)
> 
> I've often wondered what would happen if they changed the system of govt funding so we all paid the same taxes as now, but got to chose which programs we each wanted our money to go towards. I bet that would quickly eliminate a whole lot of pork programs.


Do you have a link to the investigation into the Medicare fraud you referenced? I'd like to read it.


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## SLADE

I would like to read that. Please post it so I can be enlightened.


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## AmericanStand

doc- said:


> There's always fraud with any govt program, and many govt programs only exist because someone who's gunna make a fortune off it knew how to lobby and get the program enacted. (Eg- American RR system, "green energy companies" like Solyndra & Tesla, etc etc.). But there are many good programs and maybe we just gotta accept some fraud as part of the cost of doing business.
> 
> When the Clinton Admin re-wrote the Healthcare funding laws, they set up a pilot program to investigate Medicare fraud. It was discontinued after two yrs because they found the program cost twice as much as the value of the fraud they found. (Most fraud was inadvertent due to naïve errors caused by the unnecessarily complicated coding system.)
> 
> I've often wondered what would happen if they changed the system of govt funding so we all paid the same taxes as now, but got to chose which programs we each wanted our money to go towards. I bet that would quickly eliminate a whole lot of pork programs.


 I know for absolutely certain your first sentence is incorrect and I totally Agree with you on your last sentence.


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## Redlands Okie

HermitJohn said:


> I am still amazed somebody is worried somebody bought a candy bar with SNAP, yet zero concern of their tax dollars going to some of wealthiest companies in world. Oh well, easier to blame the poor. Its all meritocracy, those wealthy corporations earned their taxpayer handouts. Poor starving CEO's.....


Great idea for a separate thread.


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## doc-

Irish Pixie said:


> Do you have a link to the investigation into the Medicare fraud you referenced? I'd like to read it.


Sorry, I don't have a quick reference. You can search it. I know about it from personal experience. I was Med Staff President at one of the hospitals I attended for three yrs when the new Medicare regs went into effect. That's when the "Diagnosis Related Reimbursement " program went into effect. It resulted in the closure of 1/3rd of all hospitals, mostly in rural & under-served urban areas. That little hospital, unusually friendly & well run for a Chicago area facility had to scramble to make ends meet. We down-sized from 80 to 40 beds, and it still had to close its doors s few yrs later. Basically, if you didn't provide cardiac by-pass surgery, you went broke in those days. It was the only service adequately funded.

Another exam0ple of the inept activity of the govt in healthcare is my experience with the JCHCAH, an organization that inspects & evaluates hospitals, surgical centers, nursing homes, etc for their accreditation. I was Med Director at a nursing home for awhile. Every two yrs, the administrator there would go into a panic as that inspection process was approaching. I told her, "Look. They're bureaucrats. They're instructed to find five things wrong every place they go. They don't care what those things are or how bad the things are or ho wmany things are really wrong. They'll quit when they find five. So just make five glaring errors that on purpose. Errors that are easy to correct: leave a sheet & pillow case on the floor next to the hamper in the hall, remove a week's worth of nursing notes from a chart, etc etc. … She did that. They were all found (and no more) on the inspection. They were easily corrected and the home was passed on the follow-up exam.

In govt programs, its's the paper work that counts, not the actual activity. Have you been to the doctor's office under Obummer Care? Did the doc even look at you or just stare at the computer screen while he made sure all the blanks were filled in?

Sorry 'bout that...What was the original question?


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## Irish Pixie

doc- said:


> Sorry, I don't have a quick reference. You can search it. I know about it from personal experience. I was Med Staff President at one of the hospitals I attended for three yrs when the new Medicare regs went into effect. That's when the "Diagnosis Related Reimbursement " program went into effect. It resulted in the closure of 1/3rd of all hospitals, mostly in rural & under-served urban areas. That little hospital, unusually friendly & well run for a Chicago area facility had to scramble to make ends meet. We down-sized from 80 to 40 beds, and it still had to close its doors s few yrs later. Basically, if you didn't provide cardiac by-pass surgery, you went broke in those days. It was the oy service adequately funded.
> 
> Another exam0ple of the inept activity of the govt in healthcare is my experience with the JCHCAH, an organization that inspects & evaluates hospitals, surgical centers, nursing homes, etc for their accreditation. I was Med Director at a nursing home for awhile. Every two yrs, the administrator there would go into a panic as that inspection process was approaching. I told her, "Look. They're bureaucrats. They're instructed to find five things wrong every place they go. They don't what those things are or how bad the things are or ho wmany things are really wrong. They'll quit when they find five. So just make five glaring errors that on purpose. Errors that are easy to correct: leave a sheet & pillow case on the floor next to the hamper in the hall, remove a week's worth of nursing notes from a chart, etc etc. … She did that. They were all found (and no more) on the inspection. They were easily corrected and the home was passed on the follow-up exam.
> 
> In govt programs, its's the paper work that counts, not the actual activity. Have you been to the doctor's office under Obummer Care? Did the doc even look at you or just stare at the computer screen while he made sure all the blanks were filled in?


So we'll have to rely on your anecdotal story about prior administrations and Medicare fraud. I'm not searching for something you referenced as fact.


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## AmericanStand

Irish Pixie said:


> So we'll have to rely on your anecdotal story about prior administrations and Medicare fraud. I'm not searching for something you referenced as fact.


No you don’t have to rely on that but you can evaluate it. Isn’t that the point of coming to a forum where we can share our own actual experience?


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## GTX63

AmericanStand said:


> I know for absolutely certain your first sentence is incorrect and I totally Agree with you on your last sentence.


I agree with you, his first sentence is incorrect. Rather than "..fraud in any program it should be "'every'" program."


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## AmericanStand

That’s wrong it’s simply wrong

I’ve worked for the government and I have found that in very small tailored programs people are often meticulously honest.
Weirdly enough that’s also where I found the largest graft.
Thank both extremes come on the same thought that this money benefits me. One group doesn’t wanna mess that up another group figures since it’s for them they might as well have it.


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## Irish Pixie

AmericanStand said:


> No you don’t have to rely on that but you can evaluate it. Isn’t that the point of coming to a forum where we can share our own actual experience?


Sure, if it's opinion. The information was given as fact in the original post, named the administration and indicated it was somehow at fault. Fact needs to be backed up with proof, or it's just opinion.


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## Irish Pixie

Bearfootfarm said:


> https://media.gibbonslaw.com/files/...a1662-4a5e-4bf5-9380-c2a5d991815f/11-levy.pdf
> 
> https://oig.hhs.gov/oas/reports/region10/h0000002.pdf


Please provide a summary of the two links per the new rule.


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## AmericanStand

Irish Pixie said:


> Sure, if it's opinion. The information was given as fact in the original post, named the administration and indicated it was somehow at fault. Fact needs to be backed up with proof, or it's just opinion.


A fact is a fact. It may be an unsubstantiated fact but that doesn’t make it an opinion.


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## AmericanStand

Irish Pixie said:


> Please provide a summary of the two links per the new rule.


It’s not a new rule that’s a very very old rule it comes from the days when the data storage space for a forum was very limited and dear and expensive in other words pre chuck.


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## Irish Pixie

AmericanStand said:


> A fact is a fact. It may be an unsubstantiated fact but that doesn’t make it an opinion.


We're going to have to disagree on this one. Fact must be substantiated, or it's opinion.


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## GTX63

AmericanStand said:


> That’s wrong it’s simply wrong
> 
> I’ve worked for the government and I have found that in very small tailored programs people are often meticulously honest.
> Weirdly enough that’s also where I found the largest graft.
> Thank both extremes come on the same thought that this money benefits me. One group doesn’t wanna mess that up another group figures since it’s for them they might as well have it.


Government and small tailored programs is an oxymoron.


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## wr

Thread has run its course


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