# blackhead~ gruesome pics



## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

As everyone knows I've been having a lot of trouble with my young turkeys. None of the other fowl~ chickens, guineas, ducks, geese are having any issues......the adult turkeys seem fine.......but I've incubated and hatched a LOT of turkeys this summer........50 to 100 would not be an exaggeration.......and I've now got 6 young turkeys out there. A couple weeks ago I took one to the vet who did an examination and told me that he did not think I had some horrible turkey disease but that there was a "Blockage" in the cecas. Well~ after doing a lot more research myself I did my own gross necropsy on a dead 3 or 4 month old bird this morning.

from:
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26481--,00.html

Pathology
When birds that have just died from blackhead are opened, fairly characteristic symptoms may be expected. The ceca are inflamed and ulcerated; they may be filled with greenish-white material as thick as curdled milk or consolidated into cores. If the birds have been ill a long time, the cores will become a foul-smelling brown residue of a creamy consistency. The ceca need not be affected equally.

The affected liver presents a characteristic appearance, with areas of necrotic and degenerated tissues on the surface. These appear as yellow or sulfur-colored rings, one-half inch or more in diameter; large lesions are often marked by concentric rings. Small lesions are elevated, but as they increase in size they may appear as a depressed area (see illustration).

Diagnosis

Upon opening a bird at necropsy, the presence of the sulfur-colored rings on the liver is sufficient for a diagnosis of blackhead; these lesions are specific. When such lesions are not evident, diagnosis must be made by microscopic identification of the causative agent. Other diseases such as tuberculosis, tumors, and mycotic infections have similarities to blackhead.


Pictures this morning from my turkey I opened up:
The liver~ the sulfer-colored rings are present









The rest of the organ looked okay~ except the ceca which did in fact have hard ulcers in them and were filled with a foul creamy brown......nastyness.... I cut one ceca open and left the other closed in this pic:









I'm looking into treatment options~ but I guess with all the money I've thrown into breeding turkeys and lost already this year I'm sorely tempted to process the adults and call it a lesson learned.


----------



## ostrichlady (Jan 18, 2007)

Cheryl, sorry that your having to go through all of this, But thank you for the teaching moment. The kids gathered around to read your information. Hopfully someone will post on how to treat also.
Barb


----------



## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Try giving them corrid or medicated feed with amprollium. Also give them a course of fish zole. I know it is discouraging, but if you can keep the flock going you will eventually get birds that are resistant.


----------



## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I've been doing a lot of research this morning~ and the last several weeks and my head is spinning a bit. Can I get amprollium at the feed store or do I need to call my vet? and thats not the one thats deadly to the water fowl if they get into it is it?

The fishzole is flagyl. I've used it before in reptiles.........I'd be willing to use it in the adult turkeys trying to make the flock resistent~ but would I have to treat the chickens as well? I wouldn't want to treat the chickens with a medication that would make them unfit for human consumption.


----------



## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Yes it is flagyl. 250mg per gallon of water and give it to everybody. It is ok to eat the birds. It is the one antibiotic I give because it is effective against fowl pox. You give it for 3 days and that should clear them up.

Look for corrid at the feed store. It is safe for waterfowl. It is rather expensive to buy a bottle, but medicated feed costs no more than regular.


----------



## bee (May 12, 2002)

I have a thought for you. I do not have blackhead here tho I raise chickens and turkeys. One reason I MAY not have it is a weed that grows everywhere and I feed chopped up in mower clippings to the entire batch of birds. The causitive agent in blackhead is a protozoan. Recent studies on extracts from Sweet Annie show it has anti-protozoal properties. I got this plant started as I was making wreaths from it for sale and one mature plant left too seed insures I will NEVER be without it. I have the thought that the clipings, wether eaten or just returned to the soil, may be suppressing the infectious agent. In any case I am one of those folks that like the scent of the Sweet Annie and it sure does not seem to be doing any harm to anything! Not scientific, not conclusive; just my 2 cents and maybe some hope to remove the protoza from a test area by growing and chopping and tilling it into the soil?? Good luck, bee


----------



## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

couple more quick questions if you don't mind. You seem to already know the answers I'm trying to find online~ thanks so much for the info.

1. Can I put the flagyl and the amprollium in the water at the same time?

2. I've not been to the feed store to ask about amprollium yet~ but I KNOW I can get feed with the coccidiostat Deconquinate in a 16% protien goat ration......will that work if I can't find the amprollium in a pellet feed?

2. 3 days on the flagyl~ how long on the amprolluim?

3. Withdrawl on the chicken eggs? How long?

and finally and most important to deciding what to do now.....to treat or butcher.......There is no reasonable way I could separate the turkeys from the chickens and expect to keep them separated. The dogs are the only animals on the property with any respect for fences!

4. If I don't want to have the same problem and substantial loss next year I need to treat the birds forever? or once every month? or once every 6 months? Or do it now and next years hatchlings should be fine?

Thanks for any help


----------



## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

1. Yes but you will want to continue the amprollium for such a long period that it could get tedious.
2. You have dogs, so no. I'd be real leary of giving it to birds or goats too.
3. Three days after you quit giving the medication is sufficient withdrawal for eggs.
4. Generally you will only need to treat when weather conditions are right for infection. Hot/dry, very cold/dry, no treatment needed, wet/cool or wet/warm then treat. The moment you see a bird fluffed out with its head hanging and looking sorry for itself, you need to treat.


If you will make a habit of mixing red pepper in the feed, it should greatly reduce the disease. I don't know about the sweet annie, but it may also work.


----------



## Avalon Acres (Dec 1, 2006)

Corid (amprolium) is now available in pints. More expensive ($14 per pint vs $74 per gallon, Jeffers supply). If Corid is not available at your local farm store I would order from Jeffers by 4:00 p.m. today and you will have it , probably Saturday in N. Alabama. Unfortunately, turkeys seem to have an unexplainable cosmic need to die!

This is how we raise our turkeys: Hens are allowed to set and hatch but poults are removed soon after hatch. Poults go on wire until 10-12 weeks old, then outside to free range. A sick or suspicious acting bird (seldom when on wire) is isolated or culled immediately. All poults in that group are then put on corid (and fish zole if symptoms indicate the need) for five days. I will not sell a turkey less than twelve weeks old.

As for feed, check for a high quality medicated hog feed. These typically will have a higher percentage of medication than a poultry feed. Our local old time feed store operator (former dairy/hog/poultry farmer) made the hog feed recommendation several years ago when I had an outbreak of mycoplasma gallisepticum (someone "gifted a chicken without our knowledge) and it helped.

You need immediate results and a feed change if they are dying. 
Good luck.

David


----------



## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Okay~ I decided to give treating them a try. I bought a gallon of amprolium at the feedstore this morning (little cheaper at the feedstore than from Jeffers) and I've ordered the Flagyl from Amazon (hoping I'll get the real thing ordering from a name I know versus ordering from somewhere cheaper and taking a chance of getting a fake drug). The flagyl won't be here until next week so that treatment will have to wait but I'll go ahead and start the amprolium today.

Do I put it in all the water pans for the chickens and the turkeys or just in the pans the turkeys have access too? Do the chickens need to be treated or just it won't hurt them if they have some of what the turkeys are being treated with?

Thanks everyone


----------



## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Chickens don't need treating, but it won't hurt them.


----------



## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Thanks.
I put the amprolium in the water pans today. Most of the other poultry, the dogs, the goats and the cows will wind up having some too as there is just no way to reasonably seperate the turkeys. Since there is no way to keep the other animals from having some of the med I'm just going to go ahead and treat all the water pans except the HUGE water troughs I never see any of the poultry drinking out of (I have two very large troughs and smaller 2X2 foot pans of water set up pretty much all over the property so that if one one water source runs dry, gets fouled or gets spilled I can always depend there is another one with water in it somewhere else the animals can get to it) I asked my vet this morning and he said both meds should be fine for the other animals too~ but to go ahead and withdraw from the eggs and any butchering for at least a week after the amprolium and at least a month after the flagyl. I'll add the flagyl when I get it next week~ probably after the 5 day run of amprolium but it's the best I can do~ long time with the dogs getting all my fresh eggs.

Two of the Turkey hens are missing. I'm not sure if thats good news or bad news. I'd moved the hens and Toms into the wooded pastures several weeks ago when I became so disappointed with the baby turkeys dieing~ I figured if I gave them a chance to set up their own nests and incubate them at least I wouldn't feel so bad if they failed and maybe they would do a better job without me micromanaging them (the guineas disappeared into the woods for several weeks and then came up with a bunch of babies for me......NO work on my part). The two hens missing now.........either some predator capable of taking out two adult turkey hens from two different pastures, while avoiding the LGD dog in each pasture and leaving no obvious evidence showed up in the last 24 hours and ate VERY well (Both hens came up for evening scratch yesterday but not today)...........or the hens decided to go ahead and set wherever they've been laying the eggs out in the woods. I'm hoping the hens will come up at least some in the next several days and drink out of the medicated water pans.......but my next question is......................

If the hens show up in a month with baby turkeys....( I HOPE! Since I have only 6 of the many, many, many, many babies I worked so hard to incubate and brood left!)......do I try to take the babies and medicate them~ or medicate the water pans again when/if they bring babies up out of the woods.

What would you do?


----------



## Avalon Acres (Dec 1, 2006)

Your mileage may vary:
-Assuming the hens are setting and I could not locate the nests, I would collect the poults when they hatch.
-If nests are located, I would move hens at night to a secure, quiet, and familiar location (unless LGD could promise no circumstances beyond their control), on eggs that would be expendable . Turkey eggs from the nests would go into the incubator until (if) the hens proved to remain broody.
-Hatched poults would be put on medicated water early and preferably on wire.

We have had four hatches this year. The first two were left with hens to free range and let nature take it's course (experiment). Of seventeen poults, two have survived, these were taken from the hens and have now been on wire for several weeks. Third hen hatched seven confined in a horse stall, one died at two weeks, no medicated water. These are now on Corid every several days and are thriving. Barred Rock hen hatched ten of eleven turkey eggs yesterday and will be confined until the poults are feathered sufficiently to put on wire. They will be released at twelve weeks to free range.

I would prefer to allow the hens to raise their own but the survival rate of even wild turkeys is not very high at times. Domestication doesn't help the cause of survival, beyond some inherited resistance as mentioned in another post. With three hens and two clutches each, we typically hatch fifty to sixty poults. We will not raise the typical thirty plus turkeys this year due to my earlier experiment.


----------

