# Researchers: Medical errors now third leading cause of death in



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Well that's reassuring! 

Nightmare stories of nurses giving potent drugs meant for one patient to another and surgeons removing the wrong body parts have dominated recent headlines about medical care. Lest you assume those cases are the exceptions, a new study by patient safety researchers provides some context.

Their analysis, published in the BMJ on Tuesday, shows that "medical errors" in hospitals and other health care facilities are incredibly common and may now be the third leading cause of death in the United States -- claiming 251,000 lives every year, more than respiratory disease, accidents, stroke and Alzheimer's.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...hird-leading-cause-of-death-in-united-states/


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Ouch....

Wonder why the change now?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Yeah, what is going on? Would like to know where the US ranks in this issue with other countries?


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

Nothing new, CDC actually says it is higher


http://www.healthleadersmedia.com/quality/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-death-senators-told


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

People have actually taken to writing their procedures on themselves, or marking the correct limb with sharpies to make sure the docs get it right.


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## LuLuToo (Dec 19, 2015)

Where would you like to start? Companies have cut costs by cutting labor. Nurses are under staffed and over worked. Technicians are under staffed and overworked. Pharmacists are under staffed and over worked. Physicians may, or may not, be under staffed and over worked. When you link these two factors to patients/clients who expect everything to be cheap ($4 generics, anyone?) and immediate (would you like fries with that?), it is a disaster waiting to happen. Patients become frustrated, poor, upset about their health, and angry. They take it out on their provider(s). Yelling at the person trying to save your life is not likely to reduce your risk of dying. In fact, it is distracting and distractions are probably the number one reason for medical errors. That distraction may effect your care or it may effect another patient's care. 

Not only are these professionals over worked, they are stressed. In fact, they burn out at an unprecedented rate. That means early retirement for some, nervous breakdowns, suicides, career changes, and some just dropping to part-time hours. In order to deal with the mass exodus of medical professionals, more schools show up all the time and each school increases number of admissions. Guess what that means? At many schools, it is much easier to be accepted today than it was 20 or 30 years ago. Years ago, my class had well over 500 qualified applicants for 75 positions. That meant only the cream of the crop got in. Today, that same school accepts about 125 students each year. And there are now more schools in my state. As the market has been flooded (to fill the gap), people are expected to carry a heavier load and accept less compensation. Older workers are forced out. Benefits are cut. Job security is a thing of the past. 

Standards do not carry across professions. Each group has its own board. Each board works differently. And they do not necessarily play nicely with one another. Laws are made which are tightly enforced for one group and not so much for another. That just adds to the stress b/c you have one group letting it slide and another group who cannot let it slide if they want to keep their licenses. This is a major point of contention.

Let's talk about doctors. Few family docs make hospital rounds now days. Hospitalists do that. So when you are admitted to the hospital, you are seen by a doctor who doesn't know you from the next guy. Do you see any room for error there? Your family doc may have known you for the past 45 years, but none of that matters now. Doctors have what amounts to a union - the AMA. Prior to getting his/her own practice (if they even have one), your doctor was an intern who put in crazy, long hours, got very little sleep, and was expected to carry a huge patient load. No room for error there, right? Wrong.

With drug abuse being what it is today, pharmacies, veterinary offices, hospitals, medical centers are all at risk of being victimized by criminals. Many of us just don't want to accept that level of risk any longer. If you think being on high alert every minute of your work day is fun, think again.  

There are a lot of factors involved in errors. I can tell you that distractions are one of the major causes. Phones are ringing, patients are waiting (not patiently), corporate powers make unreasonable demands. We are all human. I am linking a good article for you to review. http://scribeamerica.com/blog/medical-errors-causes-solutions/

LuLu


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

That was an excellent synopsis LuLu. One thing was left out though.
The Medical systems are about maximising profits per patient, and keeping costs to a minimum.


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

Sometimes the patients share some of the blame by not taking their care into their own hands and trusting the system too much. Our health care is great at fixing broken bones and trauma and such but the public needed to correct their health by treating their body better so there is less chance of diseases.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

LuLuToo said:


> Where would you like to start? Companies have cut costs by cutting labor. Nurses are under staffed and over worked. Technicians are under staffed and overworked. Pharmacists are under staffed and over worked. Physicians may, or may not, be under staffed and over worked. When you link these two factors to patients/clients who expect everything to be cheap ($4 generics, anyone?) and immediate (would you like fries with that?), it is a disaster waiting to happen. Patients become frustrated, poor, upset about their health, and angry. They take it out on their provider(s). Yelling at the person trying to save your life is not likely to reduce your risk of dying. In fact, it is distracting and distractions are probably the number one reason for medical errors. That distraction may effect your care or it may effect another patient's care.
> 
> Not only are these professionals over worked, they are stressed. In fact, they burn out at an unprecedented rate. That means early retirement for some, nervous breakdowns, suicides, career changes, and some just dropping to part-time hours. In order to deal with the mass exodus of medical professionals, more schools show up all the time and each school increases number of admissions. Guess what that means? At many schools, it is much easier to be accepted today than it was 20 or 30 years ago. Years ago, my class had well over 500 qualified applicants for 75 positions. That meant only the cream of the crop got in. Today, that same school accepts about 125 students each year. And there are now more schools in my state. As the market has been flooded (to fill the gap), people are expected to carry a heavier load and accept less compensation. Older workers are forced out. Benefits are cut. Job security is a thing of the past.
> 
> ...


Thank you from the wife of a hard working RN. Medical professionals aren't machines, they are human beings that do occasionally make errors.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you from the wife of a hard working RN. Medical professionals aren't machines, they are human beings that do occasionally make errors.


The numbers say those "professionals" make errors far more than occasionally. They're killing a LOT of people. In fact, they are FAR more deadly than people with guns or drunk drivers. Much of the blame should go to government meddling. This wasn't as big a problem when your doctor or nurse actually looked and listened to you instead of spending their time typing on a computer making sure all the government required forms were filled out properly. But, it will get worse because government will increase their meddling. No different than Common Core. Test scores are falling even more under Common Core but the government says to "give it more time".


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

This article caught my attention due to a friends Mother's hospital stay. She was in for a very routine surgery, she is in her 60's good health but on BP meds. Her stay was four days and everyday she had to argue with them about getting her BP meds. The nurses each time would assure her they would put them in the system, never happened. Even though the BP readings were high.

If she had not been able to voice her need and this had gone on for a prolonged period it could have been serious.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

no really said:


> This article caught my attention due to a friends Mother's hospital stay. She was in for a very routine surgery, she is in her 60's good health but on BP meds. Her stay was four days and everyday she had to argue with them about getting her BP meds. The nurses each time would assure her they would put them in the system, never happened. Even though the BP readings were high.
> 
> If she had not been able to voice her need and this had gone on for a prolonged period it could have been serious.


The only thing the nurses could do would be to make her attending physician aware of the problem. A nurse can't give _any_ medication that a Dr hasn't ordered. 

If anything arises like this, to anyone, make the nurses aware but go directly to your Dr.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

poppy said:


> The numbers say those "professionals" make errors far more than occasionally. They're killing a LOT of people. In fact, they are FAR more deadly than people with guns or drunk drivers. Much of the blame should go to government meddling. This wasn't as big a problem when your doctor or nurse actually looked and listened to you instead of spending their time typing on a computer making sure all the government required forms were filled out properly. But, it will get worse because government will increase their meddling. No different than Common Core. Test scores are falling even more under Common Core but the government says to "give it more time".


What is your education level, what do you do for a living, and have you ever made a mistake on the job?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> What is your education level, what do you do for a living, and have you ever made a mistake on the job?


What I do matters not. If a cop makes a quick decision and shoots someone, he has to at least be investigated and perhaps prosecuted even though it might have been a mistake. Why should medical people not be held to the same rules? A nurse passing out meds should be expected to give them to the right person. Failure to do that and causing someone's death would at least rise to the level of criminal negligence.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

poppy said:


> What I do matters not. If a cop makes a quick decision and shoots someone, he has to at least be investigated and perhaps prosecuted even though it might have been a mistake. Why should medical people not be held to the same rules? A nurse passing out meds should be expected to give them to the right person. Failure to do that and causing someone's death would at least rise to the level of criminal negligence.


Every. single. medication. error. is investigated. Did you really think they weren't? Too many errors and an RN will lose their license, and if the error warrants it they can be prosecuted as well. 

Based on your "non answer" I'll guess that your job doesn't involve a lot of responsibility. Especially since you didn't realize that *all* medical professionals from aides on up are held responsible for errors of any type.


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## mustard (Aug 29, 2006)

Forgive my uppercase, i have vision problems.

I've been dealing with the worst doctor i've ever had (and i'm sixty.)

i'm intelligent, well educated, i do research... I take responsibility

i don't want dr. House, i just want basic common sense medical care.

I have severe depression due to a crazy person who was my former supervisor who was stalking me in a nasty way. I mean really nasty, probably psychotic.

I more or less got away from - would you believe - her. How often do you meet female stalkers? 

But the damage to my mind was done before i realized what she was doing... 

And now i'm dealing with dr. Jerk.

I need my depression meds. And dr. Jerk wants me to get tested for... Diabetes (no symptoms,) kidney disease (no symptoms,) liver disease (no symptoms) and have tests done on my female organs (no symptoms) before he'll refill my antidepressant med.

In addition, when i applied for free inhalers for my asthma from a program for indigent patients, he hand wrote a lie about my documentation next to where he signed the document. 

I hope he was just being a hostile jerk. If not, he didn't read or couldn't understand the simple statement he was signing. 

I honestly wonder if he's suffering from senile dementia. He looks like he's about 80.

In addition, isn't there some kind of protocol about forcing a severely depressed patient to undergo testing for serious illnesses when you should know that a positive result could cause a complete mental collapse - or worse?

I just want to get over my depression so that i can then decide about any tests i need when i can cope with any negative result.

What is worse, dr. Jerk advertises that one of his specialties is helping people who are depressed. He's a family doctor.

I'm now wondering if he's trolling for victims. It's so easy to hurt depressed people and get away with it. You can always claim it's all in their minds.

It's gotten so bad that i now record all conversations from the time i walk in the door.

I was seeing the other doctor, but apparently dr. Jerk "told her about me." 

the last time i tried to see the other doctor, the front desk changed my appointment to dr. Jerk without my permission. Not my mistake, she admitted i was scheduled for the other doctor, but the other doctor had to leave early and she changed my appointment to dr. Jerk.

And... I'm afraid of what he's written in my medical records. I asked to see them but the receptionist said i couldn't see my patient records without the doctor's permission and he wasn't there that day.

I never before had a stupid doctor joke. In general, i respect doctors, but...

I tried to tell dr. Jerk that i was having a problem with feeling real bad when my blood sugar was low, for instance after missing a meal or two.

I told him that one day i have missed three meals in two days and felt so bad i thought about going to the emergency room. But since i was beginning to think i had problems with low blood sugar symptoms, i went to the store, bought a steak, cooked it and ate it and all my symptoms went away. After i ate the steak i felt fine.

His response: "why didn't you have a steak in your refrigerator?" ummm, he was serious... That was all he got out of what i said: That i didn't have a steak in my refrigerator. 

I'm going to try to report him. I can't be the only patient he's doing this to, and i've already met one former patient that started telling me what a bad dr. That dr. Jerk is as soon as i said dr. Jerk's name. 

He's going to kill someone, if he hasn't already.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

poppy said:


> No different than Common Core. Test scores are falling even more under Common Core but the government says to "give it more time".


I don't want to draw this thread off topic, but what would be a better method of measuring the success of education than standardized exams?


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Wonder what the numbers would be if they added in the Pharmaceutical Deaths. Not overdoses, just correct doses ending up with patient deaths as one of the dreaded side effects.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mustard said:


> Forgive my uppercase, i have vision problems.
> 
> I've been dealing with the worst doctor i've ever had (and i'm sixty.)
> 
> ...


All states have a Department of Professional Medical Conduct or something similar. I suggest you file a complaint with them, he or she may already have had complaints filed. Also tell them that the Dr refuses to release your medical records, that's a HIPPA violation.


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## hoddedloki (Nov 14, 2014)

Mustard,

You do have the right to your own medical records, without the Dr.'s permission, and please do report bad doctors where you find them.

For the original thread, I blame the lawyers. check the quality of car in TX vs say Rhode Island (or other states that have not limited malpractice suits.) It has gotten to the point where unless a doc is part of a large corp., they cannot really afford to pay the malpractice insurance. Tell me that this doesn't have an effect on the number of family doctors or even the total number of doctors practicing in a community.

Loki


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> Every. single. medication. error. is investigated. Did you really think they weren't? Too many errors and an RN will lose their license, and if the error warrants it they can be prosecuted as well.
> 
> Based on your "non answer" I'll guess that your job doesn't involve a lot of responsibility. Especially since you didn't realize that *all* medical professionals from aides on up are held responsible for errors of any type.


BS. When was the last time a nurse was punished for giving someone the wrongs meds? Occasionally one is fired if it happens repeatedly but I have heard of none going to jail. Put them on trial and lock them up if convicted. Same with doctors who amputate the wrong limb. How dumb do they have to be? Punish them severely and the incidence of this happening will drop.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

poppy said:


> BS. When was the last time a nurse was punished for giving someone the wrongs meds? Occasionally one is fired if it happens repeatedly but I have heard of none going to jail. Put them on trial and lock them up if convicted. Same with doctors who amputate the wrong limb. How dumb do they have to be? Punish them severely and the incidence of this happening will drop.


LOL. Read to your heart's content: 

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...=UTF-8#q=Nurse+jail+time+for+medication+error


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

Nurses and Doctors can have their Licenses suspended and or revoked....they can't make a living in their chosen field. There is even a publication that lists these for Doctors, not sure about Nurses


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> What is your education level, what do you do for a living, and have you ever made a mistake on the job?


I used to work in a field where a small mistake could result in the deaths of a LOT of people. Because of this we had multiple redundancies so if one person made a mistake, and being humans it did happen, it was caught by one of the other people before it was entered into the system.

Later we also added computer systems as another layer. Note I said added, we didn't remove any of the systems we had.

I am very happy to say that we never killed anyone.

When you are dealing with human lives "I was in a hurry." or "I was tired." or "I thought someone else had checked it." can never be an acceptable excuse.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Every. single. medication. error. is investigated. Did you really think they weren't? Too many errors and an RN will lose their license, and if the error warrants it they can be prosecuted as well.
> 
> Based on your "non answer" I'll guess that your job doesn't involve a lot of responsibility. Especially since you didn't realize that *all* medical professionals from aides on up are held responsible for errors of any type.


If a professional truck driver makes a mistake and kills someone the odds he is going to lose more than his CDL, he's going to lose his freedom for a period of time. I hate to say it because I have family members in the medical profession but I think ANY mistake which results in death should automatically be treated as a criminal case with the possibility of jail time. We are talking about human lives her not wrecking someone's car.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> Nurses and Doctors can have their Licenses suspended and or revoked....they can't make a living in their chosen field. There is even a publication that lists these for Doctors, not sure about Nurses


Most (all?) states have a website to check the license status of RNs and LPNs, I'm not positive on CNAs but I think they are listed on New York's site.

*ETA: NYS Office of Professional Medical Conduct does give information on complaints filed and malpractice. I have no clue if other states list the information or not. NYS has a similar site for any professional- nurses, CPAs, engineers, etc.*


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> All states have a Department of Professional Medical Conduct or something similar. I suggest you file a complaint with them, he or she may already have had complaints filed. Also tell them that the Dr refuses to release your medical records, that's a HIPPA violation.


Here's one of the problems. In most (all?) states you can NOT find out if your doc has had a complaint filed against him or if he has a dozen of them.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Most (all?) states have a website to check the license status of RNs and LPNs, I'm not positive on CNAs but I think they are listed on New York's site.


But these sites only show if they are licensed in that state, not if or how many complaints have been filed against them, correct?


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## LuLuToo (Dec 19, 2015)

watcher said:


> I used to work in a field where a small mistake could result in the deaths of a LOT of people. Because of this we had multiple redundancies so if one person made a mistake, and being humans it did happen, it was caught by one of the other people before it was entered into the system.
> 
> Later we also added computer systems as another layer. Note I said added, we didn't remove any of the systems we had.
> 
> ...


And THAT would be ideal. However, corporate America will never let that happen. Patients demand CHEAP. Since supplies and meds are not cheap, corporate has decided to cut costs on labor. Many of us have grabbed our licenses off the wall and walked, no run, to the nearest exit.

LuLu :hair


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## LuLuToo (Dec 19, 2015)

mustard said:


> I need my depression meds. And dr. Jerk wants me to get tested for... Diabetes (no symptoms,) kidney disease (no symptoms,) liver disease (no symptoms) and have tests done on my female organs (no symptoms) before he'll refill my antidepressant med.
> 
> In addition, isn't there some kind of protocol about forcing a severely depressed patient to undergo testing for serious illnesses when you should know that a positive result could cause a complete mental collapse - or worse?
> 
> ...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I need my depression meds. And dr. Jerk wants me to get tested for... Diabetes (no symptoms,) kidney disease (no symptoms,) liver disease (no symptoms) and have tests done on my female organs (no symptoms) before he'll refill my antidepressant med.


If a Dr were to just give you the meds *without* testing, and you happened to die, that would be counted as a "medical mistake" by the Dr.

One can't complain about one problem when it's created by complaints about another problem


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> Nurses and Doctors can have their Licenses suspended and or revoked....they can't make a living in their chosen field. There is even a publication that lists these for Doctors, not sure about Nurses


Is that adequate punishment for killing someone due to negligence or irresponsibility? If you act negligent or irresponsible with your car and kill someone, you not only lose your license but also are charged with vehicular manslaughter or vehicular homicide. A charge of medical maiming or medical homicide would seem quite appropriate for doctors who cut off the wrong leg or nurses who give the wrong meds and harms or kills someone.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

I have a cousin who has been an RN for quite some time. She is a hoot. She will tell you quite matter of fact, if you want to die, go to the hospital. 

She has had to invoke refusal to accept care to a nurse while in the hospital and demand a doctor. When the dust settled, it was the wrong medicine and would have been fatal. 

She had the knowledge to refuse the medicine. I would be a corpse.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Oh yes, I have to fight for my husband all the time. Just one example. He has kidney disease so he wakes me up one night in horrible pain needing to go to ER. We go, he gets a scan of some sort, wait forever, and the doctor comes back and says he has a little stone in his upper right side but not to worry, he should be able to pass it fine. Go home. OK, so by now it is the middle of the night. When we got home, I read through all the papers and see the lab report. Yes, he has a small stone in the upper region that isn't hurting anything but he has a BIG stone blocking the tube to his bladder. What! By now he is in worse pain and not passing urine so we wait until his kidney doctor's office opens. He's in surgery so we get to see the nurse. She does an ultra sound on his bladder and reports, he's passing urine fine because there is none in his bladder. I'm not in the medical field but even I could figure this one out. His kidneys are floating by now you idiot. But, she was the only idiot we had to listen to us so I had to politely explain it to her. After calling the doctor all day he agrees he needs surgery. All the while I was praying they would help him before his kidneys stopped functioning. I could add many more tales but that's just the latest.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

poppy said:


> Is that adequate punishment for killing someone due to negligence or irresponsibility? If you act negligent or irresponsible with your car and kill someone, you not only lose your license but also are charged with vehicular manslaughter or vehicular homicide. A charge of medical maiming or medical homicide would seem quite appropriate for doctors who cut off the wrong leg or nurses who give the wrong meds and harms or kills someone.


That is what Injury Attorneys are for.....Malpractice Suits are filed daily I would imagine.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> Most (all?) states have a website to check the license status of RNs and LPNs, I'm not positive on CNAs but I think they are listed on New York's site.
> 
> *ETA: NYS Office of Professional Medical Conduct does give information on complaints filed and malpractice. I have no clue if other states list the information or not. NYS has a similar site for any professional- nurses, CPAs, engineers, etc.*


I will check and see...then see if my sister has any info, she is a nurse..lol


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> LOL. Read to your heart's content:
> 
> https://www.google.com/webhp?source...=UTF-8#q=Nurse+jail+time+for+medication+error


I read it, but failed to see any humor in it.

Besides being mostly references from the UK, it showed exactly what the poster alleged, that criminal charges were rare and actuals jail time for the most serious ones (manslaughter) even rarer.

Even when convicted, most received suspended sentences.

I'll try and get stats for the U.S., but if that link was intended as a defense, it was a poor choice.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

This link is from the DEA.

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/crim_admin_actions/doctors_criminal_cases.pdf

It's not surgical related deaths, but the variations in the sentencing were interesting.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> I read it, but failed to see any humor in it.
> 
> Besides being *mostly references from the UK,* it showed exactly what the poster alleged, that criminal charges were rare and actuals jail time for the most serious ones (manslaughter) even rarer.
> 
> ...


It would be highly unusual for a first offense to warrant actual prison time.
You know that

You've also been known to give examples from all over the world when trying to prove a point about the US, such as pastors forced to perform gay weddings. 

Medical "mistakes" are rarely criminal offenses unless one can prove intent to do harm, so it's not unusual to have no charges filed.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Medical "mistakes" are rarely criminal offenses unless one can prove intent to do harm, so it's not unusual to have no charges filed.


That is not the standard many other people must live by, and I think it fair to question if this is reasonable. 

If I shoot a gun into the air and that bullet harms someone, I am criminally liable. I never intended to hurt anyone. 

If I slop down a case of beer and have a car wreck, I didnt mean to hurt anyone. Criminally liable. 

If a CRNA puts someone under and kills them 36 hours into a work shift, not criminally liable. It is an accident. 

Why do we regulate truck drivers more than doctors? Seems to be a reasonable question.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It would be highly unusual for a first offense to warrant actual prison time.
> You know that
> 
> You've also been known to give examples from all over the world when trying to prove a point about the US, such as pastors forced to perform gay weddings.
> ...


I too, am guilty of making mistakes at times, this time it was a hasty click on my mouse.
Sorry about that.
The link I ended up reading was only the second one of a page of links - this one.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1118964/

My posted reply was based on that link, which outlined more than a dozen cases involving criminal charges of doctors, usually in the death of their patients, which was the topic of the thread, specifically *U.S.* cases.
I didn't see the other links until I went back and re-clicked her link again, so I apologize for assuming that was the only one, my mistake.

As far as "knowing" that a first offense of manslaughter usually gets no jail time...... :umno: ....... I *don't* know if that's true or not.
I've seen it go both ways and couldn't tell you what the statistical outcome usually is. The individual circumstances are so varied, I might guess 50/50 but I might be completely wrong again.
But I have no idea, maybe you could share that info?

As to the DEA link I posted, it was quite long and I admit that I didn't read the whole thing. 
First offenses in possession of narcotics or small sales amount might not get you jail time, that's true. But large scale operations spanning several transactions over many months or years would certainly send most people to prison for a while.

Telling the judge "it was just a mistake" doesn't always work well.........so I'm told.


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## mustard (Aug 29, 2006)

Loki,
yes that's what i thought until i met dr. Jerk.
Now my opinion is that if you want to reduce malpractice, the doctors need to get the bad doctors out of business. That won't solve the whole problem of malpractice, but it would be a good place to start.
Also, i've read that the most common complaint that leads to malpractice is, "the doctor didn't listen." now i wonder how much of this is because of passive aggressive jerks like dr. J who are actually contradicting what the patient says out of a desire to hurt the patient. What dr. Jerk said in response to my description of low blood sugar problems is a classic passive aggressive abusive person type of response. They hear the words but their compulsion to turn what the other person says into an attack makes them say and do really stupid things. And really stupid things done by a doctor leads to lawsuits, of course.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mustard said:


> Loki,
> yes that's what i thought until i met dr. Jerk.
> Now my opinion is that if you want to reduce malpractice, the doctors need to get the bad doctors out of business. That won't solve the whole problem of malpractice, but it would be a good place to start.
> Also, i've read that the most common complaint that leads to malpractice is, "the doctor didn't listen." now i wonder how much of this is because of passive aggressive jerks like dr. J who are actually contradicting what the patient says out of a desire to hurt the patient. What dr. Jerk said in response to my description of low blood sugar problems is a classic passive aggressive abusive person type of response. They hear the words but their compulsion to turn what the other person says into an attack makes them say and do really stupid things. And really stupid things done by a doctor leads to lawsuits, of course.



Similar to the analogy of drunk drivers to the rest of the drivers on the road, most of the malpractice is caused by 1 or 2% of the total. They are repeat offenders and dangerous to all the rest of us. Getting them out of the practice of medicine should be given the same weight as the anti-drunk driving campaigns we see all the time.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It would be highly unusual for a first offense to warrant actual prison time.
> You know that
> 
> You've also been known to give examples from all over the world when trying to prove a point about the US, such as pastors forced to perform gay weddings.
> ...


Why do medical professionals get a pass? If any other professional made a mistake which resulted in a death you can bet your sweet bippy they would face more than a write up in their 201 file.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

EMTs have been imprisoned for making the wrong decision. 


But their not Drs. are they.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

watcher said:


> Why do medical professionals get a pass? If any other professional made *a mistake* which resulted in a death you can bet your sweet bippy they would face more than a write up in their 201 file.


That was already answered
Why do you just repeat the same questions?


----------



## TxHorseMom (Feb 21, 2011)

Well I guess since medical professionals are such idiots and obviously want to harm their patients y'all should just stay home the next time you're sick.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

TxHorseMom said:


> Well I guess since medical professionals are such idiots and obviously want to harm their patients y'all should just stay home the next time you're sick.


I don't think anyone has said that in this thread. As with any group of people there are good ones and not so good ones. Not all cops are perfect or politicians or lawyers. 

If the statistics are wrong that is different, please post the links.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

TxHorseMom said:


> Well I guess since medical professionals are such idiots and obviously want to harm their patients y'all should just stay home the next time you're sick.


I got that from some of the posts too.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Guess I need to read the thread again or my comprehension is bad.  but I missed the idiot part.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

poppy said:


> The numbers say those "professionals" make errors far more than occasionally. They're killing a LOT of people. In fact, they are FAR more deadly than people with guns or drunk drivers. Much of the blame should go to government meddling. This wasn't as big a problem when your doctor or nurse actually looked and listened to you instead of spending their time typing on a computer making sure all the government required forms were filled out properly. But, it will get worse because government will increase their meddling. No different than Common Core. Test scores are falling even more under Common Core but the government says to "give it more time".





poppy said:


> BS. When was the last time a nurse was punished for giving someone the wrongs meds? Occasionally one is fired if it happens repeatedly but I have heard of none going to jail. Put them on trial and lock them up if convicted. Same with doctors who amputate the wrong limb. How dumb do they have to be? Punish them severely and the incidence of this happening will drop.





no really said:


> Guess I need to read the thread again or my comprehension is bad.  but I missed the idiot part.


Perhaps the quoted posts don't actually say "idiot" but the sentiment is there.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Kinda sounds a bit like there is some distrust going on, as someone with medical professionals in my family I don't like to hear it either. But I also want the stats to change, as do they. It is very scary that there are that many problems, especially when mistakes can cost lives or injuries.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Perhaps the quoted posts don't actually say "idiot" but the sentiment is there.


I respectfully disagree IP. Poppy has a point in one of those posts. It should say "insurance paperwork" and not government so much. You and I have been around long enough to have noticed the gradual change in medical care from personalized to nothing personal. 

No, not all doctors are this way yet but many are. Those that take Medicare/Medicaid likely run you through the office like cattle. My BIL has been going to one Dr. for three years (monthly) and that Dr. didn't even recognize him at Walmart the other day. Its the nature of the type of insurance I guess. My Dr. knows me well but I have to wonder what will happen when its my turn to get on Medicare. The Dr. I have now doesn't take it.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> I respectfully disagree IP. Poppy has a point in one of those posts. It should say "insurance paperwork" and not government so much. You and I have been around long enough to have noticed the gradual change in medical care from personalized to nothing personal.
> 
> No, not all doctors are this way yet but many are. Those that take Medicare/Medicaid likely run you through the office like cattle. My BIL has been going to one Dr. for three years (monthly) and that Dr. didn't even recognize him at Walmart the other day. Its the nature of the type of insurance I guess. My Dr. knows me well but I have to wonder what will happen when its my turn to get on Medicare. The Dr. I have now doesn't take it.


I didn't take that insurance was the point of the posts- to me it was just a side rant. But I have noticed less eye contact from my primary because of computer entries, and she's complained about it taking time from actual care.


----------



## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

wiscto said:


> People have actually taken to writing their procedures on themselves, or marking the correct limb with sharpies to make sure the docs get it right.


Yeah... or left.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> I didn't take that insurance was the point of the posts- to me it was just a side rant. But I have noticed less eye contact from my primary because of computer entries, and she's complained about it taking time from actual care.


Well, he said government paper work. He may be right but I believe its paper work for the payment on the insurance. 

I could be wrong because I know *nothing* about medical billing except what I have heard.


----------



## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

I believe with enactment of the aca there are further information requirements plus the whole electronic entry requirements for people who may not be totally computer literate.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

coolrunnin said:


> I believe with enactment of the aca there are further information requirements plus the whole electronic entry requirements for people who may not be totally computer literate.


Electronic medical records will not only save lives but will also save a mountain of redundant record keeping. If you show up in the ER they will have your medical history right in front of them. The records for your ER visit will simply be amended to your record.

Being computer literate will be a requirement of the job, just like being computer literate is a requirement of being a bank teller. It's now to the point where nobody gets out of high school without being computer literate. It's a universal skill now, just like being able to read.


----------



## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Nevada said:


> Electronic medical records will not only save lives but will also save a mountain of redundant record keeping. If you show up in the ER they will have your medical history right in front of them. The records for your ER visit will simply be amended to your record.
> 
> Being computer literate will be a requirement of the job, just like being computer literate is a requirement of being a bank teller. It's now to the point where nobody gets out of high school without being computer literate. It's a universal skill now, just like being able to read.


Whats all this have to do with the next 10 or so years? While I agree with you for the most part, it is causing road blocks to actual treatment today.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

coolrunnin said:


> Whats all this have to do with the next 10 or so years? While I agree with you for the most part, it is causing road blocks to actual treatment today.


The transition has to happen sooner or later. We need electronic medical records. Keeping medical records in the pen & ledger era is as absurd as banks working in the pen & ledger era.

If you show up at an ER, any ER, they have no idea who you are or what your problems might be. If you come in unconscious it could save your life for them to know if you're a diabetic or allergic to a medication. It is also important for them to know what medications you're taking regularly. I don't know why you would be against this.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

no really said:


> Kinda sounds a bit like there is some distrust going on, as someone with medical professionals in my family I don't like to hear it either. But I also want the stats to change, as do they. It is very scary that there are *that many problems*, especially when mistakes can cost lives or injuries.


Raw numbers *seem* high, but there are millions of folks treated with no "mistakes" made. 

Often those people would have died no matter what treatments were done, so the truth is usually different from what the stories imply


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Perhaps the quoted posts don't actually say "idiot" but the sentiment is there.


Seems to me he is just stating what the study has shown. According to it you have a fairly high (based on the causes of death) chance of your medical professional killing you. If drunk drivers were shown to be the #3 cause of death in America how do you think the people would react? I'm willing to bet they would not expect the AAA to just keep track of them and if it felt they had been caught too many times suggest to the state that their licenses be suspended. I'm thinking they would be protesting in state capitals demanding that drunk drivers be put in jail, especially so if they kill someone.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

watcher said:


> Seems to me he is just stating what the study has shown. According to it you have a fairly high (based on the causes of death) chance of your medical professional killing you. *If* drunk drivers were shown to be the #3 cause of death in America how do you think the people would react? I'm willing to bet they *would *not expect the AAA to just keep track of them and *if* it felt they had been caught too many times suggest to the state that their licenses be suspended. I'm thinking they *would* be protesting in state capitals demanding that drunk drivers be put in jail, especially so if they kill someone.


What is it with your fascination for fantasy scenarios?
Is it because you can't make a point based on reality?


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What is it with your fascination for fantasy scenarios?
> Is it because you can't make a point based on reality?


They are called analogies. They allow people to see how stupid something is by applying the same standards to another.

Most people understand them. Just for you I'll keep it in the reality of the medical field. Medical mistakes kill a lot of people each year yet very few of the killers ever face a criminal trial because they are labeled as 'medical mistakes' not criminal negligence. This defies logic because the law usually states if you willfully commit an act that violates set safety protocols and that act results in the death of a person you have committed a crime. Only in the most extreme circumstances can you expect to be found not guilty in such a case. In only in the most extreme of the most extreme will the state refuse to charge you.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Raw numbers *seem* high, but there are millions of folks treated with no "mistakes" made.
> 
> Often those people would have died no matter what treatments were done, so the truth is usually different from what the stories imply


The numbers DO seem high.
And there's no way to verify them either.
Know why?

Because the CDC doesn't have a "medical code" for it so it never gets recorded as a cause of death on a death certificate.
How's that for efficiency? No coded designation, no cause to keep track of...... :idea:

http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

Gun violence kills about 33,000 a year (500 are classified as accidental), drunks kill another 15,000 or so, and those are two big priorities for law enforcement.

You may not know anyone who died or almost did from a medical mistake, but that's ok. Stats are done with averages and the several I know of personally makes up for your "0" contribution.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

watcher said:


> They are called analogies. They allow people to see how stupid something is by applying the same standards to another.
> 
> Most people understand them. Just for you I'll keep it in the reality of the medical field. Medical mistakes kill a lot of people each year yet very few of the killers ever face a criminal trial because they are labeled as 'medical mistakes' not criminal negligence. This defies logic because the law usually states *if you willfully commit an act* that violates set safety protocols and that act results in the death of a person you have committed a crime. Only in the most extreme circumstances can you expect to be found not guilty in such a case. In only in the most extreme of the most extreme will the state refuse to charge you.


I know what they are called.

What I don't understand is why you can't get through a topic without inserting them into nearly every post when they rarely have any real comparison to the subject 

You just stated what I told you was the difference in a "mistake" and a "crime", so I know you don't need any analogy to understand.

Most understand *without* the rambling analogies, but you seem compelled to insert them all the time.

What if a space turtle is causing all the deaths?
Can you prove they don't?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> The numbers DO seem high.
> And there's no way to verify them either.
> Know why?
> 
> ...


Of course there is no "medical code" for an error, since codes are quite specific in meaning, and "error" isn't a cause of death



> Gun violence kills about 33,000 a year (500 are classified as accidental), drunks kill another 15,000 or so, and those are two big priorities for law enforcement.


So?
How is that relevant to "medical mistakes"?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Of course there is no "medical code" for an error, since codes are quite specific in meaning, and "error" isn't a cause of death


Right.
They have fancy latin names for the hole they accidentally put thru your heart.
Then the code is for "cardiac arrest".





> So?
> How is that relevant to "medical mistakes"?



You don't remember?









Try scrolling back.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> Right.
> They have fancy latin names for the hole they accidentally put thru your heart.
> Then the code is for "cardiac arrest".
> 
> ...


I can't scroll back far enough to turn a gunshot into a medical mistake.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I can't scroll back far enough to turn a gunshot into a medical mistake.


No, but if you stopped being an  long enough to read the posts comparing the legal consequences of using a gun or driving a car irresponsibly resulting in someone's death, your question has already been answered from the very beginning of this thread.
It's about numbers, whether it's 15,000, 30,000 or 300,000. If it's a death from "making a mistake" the usual protocol for society is for an investigation, not a Friday afternoon board meeting. 
:nono:


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Raw numbers *seem* high, but there are millions of folks treated with no "mistakes" made.
> 
> Often those people would have died no matter what treatments were done, so the truth is usually different from what the stories imply


The important thing about these articles is more action from the medical community. As I stated I do have family members that are medical professionals. They tell me that hospitals are becoming very proactive in this area. They are also getting very in depth when there is any indicator of errors in treatment. Biggest problem they feel is the lack of staff to handle and dissect the issues.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> No, but *if you stopped being an * long enough to read the posts comparing the legal consequences of using a gun or driving a car irresponsibly resulting in someone's death, your question has already been answered from the very beginning of this thread.
> It's about numbers, whether it's 15,000, 30,000 or 300,000. If it's a death from "making a mistake" the usual protocol for society is for an investigation, not a Friday afternoon board meeting.
> :nono:


I saw those and they have no relation to a "medical *mistake"*
You've yet to prove the claims of "no investigation" or "no consequences"

It's the usual rambling and name calling
Drunk driving isn't a "mistake"
Negligent use of a firearm is not a "mistake"

Trying to claim they *are*, ironically, is a mistake

If I used your terms above, you'd be whining about "lies" and "libel" and throwing one of your monthly hissy fits.

Just stick to the actual topic
You're not due for another one for about 2 more weeks


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I saw those and they have no relation to a "medical *mistake"*
> You've yet to prove the claims of "no investigation" or "no consequences"
> 
> It's the usual rambling and name calling
> ...


I provided the documentation that there are few if ever criminal investigations, and you have ironically concurred with this conclusion.
Are you now attempting to argue with yourself, using me as a proxy?

Please try to focus on the subject of the thread.............





no really said:


> Well that's reassuring!
> 
> Nightmare stories of nurses giving potent drugs meant for one patient to another and surgeons removing the wrong body parts have dominated recent headlines about medical care. Lest you assume those cases are the exceptions, a new study by patient safety researchers provides some context.
> 
> ...



Look at it this way.
The OP is someone you like. If you wish to disagree with her post, do it, but "be nice".


You could start with......"Happy Mother's Day, no really "


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I know what they are called.
> 
> What I don't understand is why you can't get through a topic without inserting them into nearly every post when they rarely have any real comparison to the subject
> 
> ...


The only difference between a mistake and a crime is how the law views it. Many crimes are just mistakes. Example: If I'm working around my place and have a loaded rifle in my truck in case I see a varmint, it is perfectly legal. However, if I need to run to the hardware store for something and forget to remove that loaded rifle from my truck, it is illegal and I know that. If I am in a hurry and do forget to take it out, that is a mistake and I never intended to commit a crime. Do you recon a state cop will just say "Ah, go ahead. That was just a mistake?"


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

poppy said:


> The only difference between a mistake and a crime is how the law views it. Many crimes are just mistakes. Example: If I'm working around my place and have a loaded rifle in my truck in case I see a varmint, it is perfectly legal. However, if I need to run to the hardware store for something and forget to remove that loaded rifle from my truck, it is illegal and I know that. If I am in a hurry and do forget to take it out, that is a mistake and I never intended to commit a crime. Do you recon a state cop will just say "Ah, go ahead. That was just a mistake?"


Thank you for stating the obvious.........for those that apparently need it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> I provided the documentation that there are *few if ever criminal investigations*, and you have ironically concurred with this conclusion.
> Are you now attempting to argue with yourself, using me as a proxy?
> 
> Please try to focus on the subject of the thread.............
> ...


There are "few if ever criminal investigations" because *mistakes* aren't crimes unless you can prove intent to do harm.

We had this conversation already.

I'm not disagreeing with her post, but you know that already.
That is just you playing your normal games

And anyone can see she's just a baby herself


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted by poppy View Post
> *The only difference between a mistake and a crime is how the law views it.*
> 
> Many crimes are just mistakes. Example: If I'm working around my place and have a loaded rifle in my truck in case I see a varmint, it is perfectly legal. However, if I need to run to the hardware store for something and forget to remove that loaded rifle from my truck, it is illegal and I know that. If I am in a hurry and do forget to take it out, that is a mistake and I never intended to commit a crime. Do you recon a state cop will just say "Ah, go ahead. That was just a mistake?"


I don't know why you think it's some big epiphany to see some things are crimes and some are not.
If an investigation shows there was no intent, odds are you will get a warning not to do it again


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There are "few if ever criminal investigations" because *mistakes* aren't crimes unless you can prove intent to do harm.


I'm sorry you don't know this, but that simply isn't true.
I suggest you look at NC laws concerning negligence, manslaughter, etc.
Maybe you heard somewhere that intent to do harm was necessary, but it isn't so.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There are "few if ever criminal investigations" because *mistakes* aren't crimes unless you can prove intent to do harm.
> 
> We had this conversation already.


Not exactly. There's such a thing as criminal negligence. If an engineer inadequately designs a bridge or building that fails and kills someone, criminal charges can result despite the fact that there was never intent to do harm.

_Under some *criminal* law statutes, *criminal negligence* is *defined* as any type of conduct that &#8220;grossly deviates&#8221; from normal, reasonable standards of an ordinary person. It generally involves an indifference or disregard for human life or for the safety of people._
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiNrtfxt8vMAhVX1GMKHdYLCU0QFgggMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.legalmatch.com%2Flaw-library%2Farticle%2Fcriminal-negligence-laws.html&usg=AFQjCNFTlld1l5X_T-Hcvrisvm-TRyGTfA&sig2=ajONKrmWMYXIOuBE8hfqUg

So being indifferent about the safety of others is enough for a criminal indictment, even without intent to do harm.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> I'm sorry you don't know this, but that simply isn't true.
> I suggest you look at NC laws concerning negligence, manslaughter, etc.
> Maybe you heard somewhere that intent to do harm was necessary, but it isn't so.


You're now talking about willful acts and not "mistakes"


Nevada:


> Under some criminal law statutes, criminal negligence is defined as any type of conduct that âgrossly deviatesâ from normal, reasonable standards of an ordinary person. It generally involves *an indifference or disregard* for human life or for the safety of people.
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...MYXIOuBE8hfqUg


A "mistake" is neither of those things most of the time


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I know what they are called.
> 
> What I don't understand is why you can't get through a topic without inserting them into nearly every post when they rarely have any real comparison to the subject
> 
> ...


A "mistake" can be a "crime". 

I use them because some people can only see how stupid something is when you apply it to something they can relate to. Most people can see how a stupid action which causes the death of a person should be a crime even if that action was not deliberately taken to kill someone. Most people know to practice medicine you need a license and to drive a car you need a license. What they don't know is the different way medical practitioners who do something stupid are treated compared to the average car driver. So to make them realize how stupid the medical system treats their stupid mistakes you make an analogy of treating car drivers who make stupid mistakes the same way. 

Think of them more as parables.


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

no really said:


> The important thing about these articles is more action from the medical community. As I stated I do have family members that are medical professionals. They tell me that hospitals are becoming very proactive in this area. They are also getting very in depth when there is any indicator of errors in treatment. Biggest problem they feel is the lack of staff to handle and dissect the issues.


Here is one of the problems. The medical community wants to have the power to handle it themselves. History has shown us that self policing doesn't work very well, it almost always results in nothing more than CYA. We only have to look at the Catholic Church and pedifiles to see this. 

Then you have the old "us vs them". Ever try to get a doctor to testify against another doctor? A layer to testify against another lawyer? A cop to testify against another cop?


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I saw those and they have no relation to a "medical *mistake"*
> You've yet to prove the claims of "no investigation" or "no consequences"
> 
> It's the usual rambling and name calling
> ...


What's the difference in forgetting a firearm is loaded and shooting someone to death and forgetting you have already dosed someone and ODing them to death?


----------



## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

watcher said:


> What's the difference in forgetting a firearm is loaded and shooting someone to death and forgetting you have already dosed someone and ODing them to death?


You have to be pretty durn stupid to point a firearm at someone, loaded or otherwise. An OD can happen due to human error. 

One way of looking at this study is that people are dying so rarely that human error has caught up with diseases.


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> You have to be pretty durn stupid to point a firearm at someone, loaded or otherwise. An OD can happen due to human error.
> 
> One way of looking at this study is that people are dying so rarely that human error has caught up with diseases.


So its NOT stupid to not check the dosage in the syringe and the patient's record before you inject it into the IV?


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> Not exactly. There's such a thing as criminal negligence. If an engineer inadequately designs a bridge or building that fails and kills someone, criminal charges can result despite the fact that there was never intent to do harm.
> 
> _Under some *criminal* law statutes, *criminal negligence* is *defined* as any type of conduct that âgrossly deviatesâ from normal, reasonable standards of an ordinary person. It generally involves an indifference or disregard for human life or for the safety of people._
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiNrtfxt8vMAhVX1GMKHdYLCU0QFgggMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.legalmatch.com%2Flaw-library%2Farticle%2Fcriminal-negligence-laws.html&usg=AFQjCNFTlld1l5X_T-Hcvrisvm-TRyGTfA&sig2=ajONKrmWMYXIOuBE8hfqUg
> ...



Correct, that's the way the statutes are worded in NC as well.
They recently condensed some of those statutes and redefined the level of punishments.
Essentially, if it's intentional homicide, it's 1st degree. All others fall into various levels of 2nd degree, with involuntary manslaughter the lowest level, still a felony, class F I believe.
Involuntary manslaughter means no malice, no forethought, no "heat of passion" and no intent, just negligence.
The level of negligence necessary for conviction of course, is up to the courts.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

watcher said:


> So its NOT stupid to not check the dosage in the syringe and the patient's record before you inject it into the IV?


Both cases are negligent, but I can see how forgetting the patient's record could occur. Also, certain medical staff may or may not be particularly well known for possessing high or even adequate IQs.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

watcher said:


> A "mistake" can be a "crime".
> 
> I use them because some people can only see how *stupid* something is when you apply it to something they can relate to. Most people can see how a *stupid *action which causes the death of a person should be a crime even if that action was not deliberately taken to kill someone. Most people know to practice medicine you need a license and to drive a car you need a license. What they don't know is the different way medical practitioners who do something *stupid* are treated compared to the average car driver. So to make them realize how *stupid* the medical system treats their *stupid* mistakes you make an analogy of treating car drivers who make* stupid *mistakes the same way.
> 
> *Think of them more as parables*.


I see them more as long, off topic, over simplistic fantasies that insinuate people are too *stupid* to understand reality without you dumbing it down for them.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

I believe it is a combination of reasons causing the deaths. Under staffing, government interference, and a sue happy society are three big ones.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Heritagefarm said:


> Both cases are negligent, but I can see how forgetting the patient's record could occur. Also, certain medical staff may or may not be particularly well known for possessing high or even adequate IQs.





Farmerga said:


> I believe it is a combination of reasons causing the deaths. Under staffing, government interference, and a sue happy society are three big ones.


There's never an excuse for incompetence; not in medicine, not in police & fire, not in business. We've come to accept it, and even expect it. But there's never an excuse for it.


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> There's never an excuse for incompetence; not in medicine, not in police & fire, not in business. We've come to accept it, and even expect it. But there's never an excuse for it.


Your right except some of us don't accept it! If something doesn't live up to my expectations based on what I've been told, they will know how I feel.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Nevada said:


> There's never an excuse for incompetence; not in medicine, not in police & fire, not in business. We've come to accept it, and even expect it. But there's never an excuse for it.


If you will notice, I, not once, used the word "excuse".


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

JeffreyD said:


> Your right except some of us don't accept it! If something doesn't live up to my expectations based on what I've been told, they will know how I feel.


You've been told some funny things.


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Both cases are negligent, but I can see how forgetting the patient's record could occur. Also, certain medical staff may or may not be particularly well known for possessing high or even adequate IQs.


So you agree, the person who accidently 'shoots' the wrong drug into someone and kills them should face the same criminal investigation as the person who accidently shoots someone with a firearm and kills them.


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I see them more as long, off topic, over simplistic fantasies that insinuate people are too *stupid* to understand reality without you dumbing it down for them.


The strange thing is no matter how much I dumb things down there are still some people who STILL can't grasp the concepts. 

And I can tell you that in my many decades on this earth I can tell you the old saying of "no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of people" is very well founded. Ever wonder why you have 24 warning labels and a dead man switch on your lawnmower telling you not to put your hand under the mower while it is running?


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

watcher said:


> So you agree, the person who accidently 'shoots' the wrong drug into someone and kills them should face the same criminal investigation as the person who accidently shoots someone with a firearm and kills them.


Honestly it would depend on the situation. Was the hospital under staffed? Was the nurse working a 16 hour shift? Did the patient have an allergy they'd forgotten about? Or one they didn't even know about? many variables. Most of the time shooting someone on accident is caused by stupidity.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Heritagefarm said:


> Honestly it would depend on the situation. Was the hospital under staffed? Was the nurse working a 16 hour shift? Did the patient have an allergy they'd forgotten about? Or one they didn't even know about? many variables. Most of the time shooting someone on accident is caused by stupidity.


Exactly. Most situations aren't as cut and dry as many would like to believe.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

watcher said:


> The strange thing is no matter how much I dumb things down there are still some people who STILL can't grasp the concepts.
> 
> And I can tell you that in my many decades on this earth I can tell you the old saying of "no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of people" is very well founded. Ever wonder why you have 24 warning labels and a dead man switch on your lawnmower telling you not to put your hand under the mower while it is running?


There's the fallacy.
You ASSUME people don't understand, so you bore them to death with all the ramblng "parables"


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Another article.

Now, let&#8217;s hear from Lewis Levy MD, Chief Medical Officer, Best Doctors, Inc., a global health company that brings together the brightest minds in medicine and predictive technologies to help people get the right diagnosis and treatment...

&#8220;Unfortunately, this news is not surprising at all. In the medical community, we have seen the consequences of inaccurate diagnoses and medical error for quite some time. While concrete efforts have been made to correct wrong site surgeries and other well publicized issues from the past, not enough has been done to address medical error that results from an incomplete or inaccurate diagnosis. 37% of the cases we review require a change in diagnosis, and over 75% of cases require a change in treatment plan.&#8221;

&#8220;Clearly, diagnostic error often leads to medical error. A recent IOM report found that wrong or delayed diagnoses are a huge &#8216;blind-spot&#8217; in U.S. healthcare and harm countless patients each year. The report also found that &#8216;most people will experience at least one diagnostic error in their lifetime, sometimes with devastating consequences.&#8217; The right diagnosis and treatment must always be the first priority in healthcare, or we are missing the mark.&#8221;

In short, we&#8217;d better lose that bronze medal.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-d-shaw/bronze-medal-medical-erro_b_9903730.html


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> The* right diagnosis* and treatment must always be the first priority in healthcare, or we are missing the mark.&#8221;


When all diseases start to exhibit unique symptoms, there will be no mistakes.
When multiple diseases can exhibit the same symptoms and a human has to pick one, there *will always be* mistakes.

As far at the "right treatment", that can be subjective.

I've seen people claim the "right treatment" for tooth decay is to drink raw goat's milk
I've seen others say the "right treatment" for cancer is eating DE or citrus fruit


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> When all diseases start to exhibit unique symptoms, there will be no mistakes.
> When multiple diseases can exhibit the same symptoms and a human has to pick one, there *will always be* mistakes.
> 
> As far at the "right treatment", that can be subjective.
> ...


I think you are missing the point, the medical community is admitting they are missing the mark on preventable mistakes. I admire this and hope they continue to work towards the best possible care for all. And yes there are many factors involved and all should be addressed properly with the medical community as a whole being transparent and proactive.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> When all diseases start to exhibit unique symptoms, there will be no mistakes.
> When multiple diseases can exhibit the same symptoms and a human has to pick one, there *will always be* mistakes.
> 
> As far at the "right treatment", that can be subjective.
> ...





> The right diagnosis and treatment must always be the first priority in healthcare, or we are missing the mark.â


Exactly. No one is expecting "no mistakes", just catch the obvious ones.
I have zero experience or training in reading X-rays, but I've caught at least two mistakes overlooked by M.D.'s
A few more in gastro-intestinal diagnoses.
And why can an 8th grader tell a football player has a concussion but a highly paid team doctor in the NFL can't?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Exactly. Most situations aren't as cut and dry as many would like to believe.


But if there's no criminal investigation how do we know just how dry the situation was? 

Isn't this just like giving a police force total power to determine if a fatal shooting involving one of their officers was a crime?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's the fallacy.
> You ASSUME people don't understand, so you bore them to death with all the ramblng "parables"


Its not assuming because its based on their post.

If I point out that their statement is based on unproven beliefs and provide evidence to support my statement and they ignore it or if I post a straight forward question and they refuse to answer it I have to conclude they either do not or can not understand.

What gets frustrating is when I make it simpler and simpler and they still can't comprehend the questions put to them.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

no really said:


> Another article.
> 
> Now, letâs hear from Lewis Levy MD, Chief Medical Officer, Best Doctors, Inc., a global health company that brings together the brightest minds in medicine and predictive technologies to help people get the right diagnosis and treatment...
> 
> ...


 I haven't read the report but I would not lump misdiagnoses in with the medical errors. There are too many diseases which have overlapping symptoms to expect doctors to not misdiagnose from time to time. Would you expect or want doctors to send everyone who came in with a cough for a lung cancer screening?


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

farmrbrown said:


> Exactly. No one is expecting "no mistakes", just catch the obvious ones.
> I have zero experience or training in reading X-rays, but I've caught at least two mistakes overlooked by M.D.'s
> A few more in gastro-intestinal diagnoses.
> And why can an 8th grader tell a football player has a concussion but a highly paid team doctor in the NFL can't?


Some of those docs must coast through on their parents money.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

watcher said:


> I haven't read the report but I would not lump misdiagnoses in with the medical errors. There are too many diseases which have overlapping symptoms to expect doctors to not misdiagnose from time to time.


I would disagree, a mistake is still a mistake.
That should not be misinterpreted as expecting absolute perfection, that's impossible.
But simply saying the task is difficult, does lower expectations of competence.
I've often heard this line said among MANY occupations......"If it was easy, anyone could do it."
Doctors have many years of education and a license.
Not just anyone CAN do it, and I'm sure it's not easy.

But I don't think anyone is faulting a difficult diagnosis or perhaps a rare disease.
It's when something basic is missed, like reading a label or a chart before administering a medicine.
If your mechanic dumps brake fluid in your transmission because he's tired or careless would you let that slide and just drive off anyway?
If he left the lug nuts loose, and your wheel fell off, would you say, "That's all right, an honest mistake" or would you tow it back to his shop and give him your critique of his skills?
That's different from tracking down a pesky electrical problem that makes your headlights flicker only when it rains over 5o mph.
After 3 trips in the shop and he finds a rodent chewed a wire running in your dash, he finally finds it a fixes it, you thank him with a check for his time.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

watcher said:


> I haven't read the report but I would not lump misdiagnoses in with the medical errors. There are too many diseases which have overlapping symptoms to expect doctors to not misdiagnose from time to time. Would you expect or want doctors to send everyone who came in with a cough for a lung cancer screening?


Maybe reading the report would be a starting point.


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