# 30.06 Advice, please?



## SilverVista (Jan 12, 2005)

We're not very typical homesteaders..... moved to our acreage with a .22 rifle and a shotgun that my sister got when she worked for the police department and loaned to us long-term. Have had minimal opportunity to use either in the 28 years we've been here (no local hunting and no time to go camping in the mountains to hunt; not many varmints and little reason to be concerned about the public trespassing), and I'm completely uneducated in weaponry.

But I just asked DH what he wanted for Christmas and he said that for the first time, the coyote population is getting out of hand in this area (neighbors have lost dozens of lambs even though we have only ever lost one sheep to coyotes in 28 years) and he thinks it's time we invested in a 30.06. I'm tired of giving him Carhartt sweatshirts for Christmas, and am considering looking at rifles, but it's a world I'm totally unfamiliar with. Any advice about what to look for and where to go? I know I'll get a lot more seasoned advice from folks here than anywhere else. 

TIA for any input!


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Savage 110 30.06 with 3x9 scope


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

A .30-06 for coyotes is a bit dramatic. It can be used, but it is gross overkill. If all he is after is coyotes there are many lower recoiling calibres out there. Even a .308 winchester, which will do almost all a 30 06 will do in a smaller, more efficient package would be better IMO, due to the short action.

Will the rifle be also used for bigger game at some point? There are as many suitable calibres as there are hunters, and you will get MANY opinions, but for coyotes specifically, I doubt anyone would recommend a 30 06. For coyotes specifically, I would recommend a .223, .22-250, .204, .220 swift, .222 remington(which is obselete, but a pet round of mine  ).

A .270, .25-06 or any myriad of smaller flatter lighter recoiling, and much quieter rifles than a .30 06 would still give the option for elk, deer, and coyote sized game, without the overkill factor.

Just an opinion. But using a .30 06 on coyotes is like using a .600 nitro express on deer. It will kill the critter, but beat the shoulder, and blow out your eardrums doing it.


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## lonelytree (Feb 28, 2008)

Tikka T3. I put a Nikon Bushmaster on mine. Be sure to get a sling that doesn't slide off his shoulder. Mine is a rough neoprene type material.

I would bet he intends to use the gun for deer, elk and other species. That would be why he is looking at that cal. Price ammo before buying that cal, up here it is one of the cheapest rounds to shoot in that class.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

I am hoping that is the plan...


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## SilverVista (Jan 12, 2005)

Oh man.... I feared this was going to lead to my having to do a whole lot of homework, and I was right! First, just to translate your replies into English... 

I doubt DH has any big game shooting in mind. To my knowledge he has never hunted and shows little interest when the neighbors load up and head out for their annual 30-family-members-singing-kumbaya-around-the-campfire-in-the-rainy-woods-for-a-week and come home with 3 freezers worth; fished a little in the canal when we lived in Bakersfield but has never even gotten the rod and reel out of the attic in the nearly 3 decades we've lived in Oregon. Heck, he doesn't even watch football!

I'm kind of wondering if he's thinking it's time we got something a little beefier than the .22 as part of a shtf prep and is just letting the 'yotes take the blame? To be honest, I know he knows more about weaponry than I do, but I don't know how much more. I really appreciate what you've told me above, will definitely do my research based on all y'all's advice, and might even have to (*gasp!*) discuss it with him before making any kind of decision.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Based on what you said I think the .223 would be a logical choice. Never trust a man who doesn't fish or like football.


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## moeh1 (Jan 6, 2012)

223 ammo is cheap, but sometimes 5.56 surplus is cheaper (same round but higher pressure). Some 223 rifles are rated for both.


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## TnTnTn (Dec 23, 2004)

Purely for coyotes a .223 bolt action would be fine-for a utility rifle a Savage or Stevens 200 would be hard to beat. If he wants more punch or power for whatever reason the .308 would be the way to go in the same rifles. The .308 is just a shorter handier 30/06. Personally I would get a Ruger American in .308 for an inexpensive do all utility rifle.


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## gunseller (Feb 20, 2010)

You need to make sure what all of his plans for the rifle are before you buy. The statements about a 308 being handier than a 30-06 because of the shorter action is all talk and no go. The 30-06 action is 1/2 longer, big deal. I sell firearms for a living. In the lower cost fire arms I would go for a Ruger American. In a step up the Tikka is a very good choice. Is a 30-06 a bigger than is needed for a coyote? Yes but so what it still kills coyotes. If he is 100% coyotes are his only need a 223 would be my choice. If he wants a 30-06 because he wants a 30-06 go for it.
Steve


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

SilverVista said:


> .....Any advice about what to look for and where to go?....


Look for a Cabela's, Bass Pro, or Gander Mountain gift card in a $750 caliber.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

If you're only going to have 1 rifle-I'd go with 30.06..buy a cheap reloader(under 100)and you can load from 110-220gr bullets,which will do anything in NA...I see Savages for 250-350 all the time..


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## MichaelK! (Oct 22, 2010)

zant said:


> If you're only going to have 1 rifle-I'd go with 30.06..buy a cheap reloader(under 100)and you can load from 110-220gr bullets,which will do anything in NA...I see Savages for 250-350 all the time..


Most likely, a man that doesn't shoot anything bigger than a .22 now isn't going to be ready to dive right into reloading. I'm guessing this is a situation for sticking with an "off the shelf" rifle/ammo combination. A combination caliber is still a good choice here, but I'm surprised that no-one's mentioned the .243 Winchester. It would be an excellent, flat-shooting coyote gun, but with heavier bullets, adequate for coastal Blacktail deer. Say, 75 grain hollowpoints for dogs and 105grain softpoints for deer. A .243 is one of the generic calibers that is sold at most Mart shops on their 399$ weekly special.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

zant said:


> Savage 110 30.06 with 3x9 scope


Make sure to get the accu trigger and bedding with the Savage.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

gilberte said:


> Based on what you said I think the .223 would be a logical choice. Never trust a man who doesn't fish or like football.


And up here, add hockey to the list.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I'm just gonna answer the question first... I've been looking at 30-06 myself as my next gun, and I'm pretty dead set on a 1903 Springfield... Great guns... I've also got a thing for military guns is part of my reason why... They are not cheap though if you find a nice one... 

I agree, it's way over kill for a cyote, especially when you look at the price per shot... Myself, I've got an SKS that I've used for cyote duty before... 7.62x39 ammo is real cheap, and real available... plus if I miss the first shot, I can keep on shooting as fast as I want ... I don't often miss though


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## Silvercreek Farmer (Oct 13, 2005)

I know it is not quite as fun, but you might want to give him a gift certificate to one of the gun retailers and let him pick it out himself. While a 30-06 is not the best tool for the job, if I wanted a 30-06 and got a .223 instead, I would be mighty disappointed! 

The 5.56x45 (miltary version of the .223 but not 100% interchangable, so check here first) and .308 are military cartidges and generally cheaper to shoot which makes me happy. I owned a 30-06 that I didn't shoot recreationally for years because I couldn't afford ammo, and if I could, I wouldn't have enjoyed shooting more than 20 rounds or so due to the recoil. The .223 is by far the cheaper of the two. 

You will get some argument about this but the .223 is generally adequate for deer under 150 yards WITH the right ammunition (not full metal jackets, which should never be used on deer) should the need ever arise. The .243 is a good comprimise but doesn't offer the cost savings of the military calibers. Depending on how far away those yotes are, he might need quite a bit of practice to be able to hit them reliably.

An AR-15 (.223, S&W M&P is a good one) would be great on yotes and great in a SHTF scenario as well.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> You need to make sure what all of his *plans for the rifle* are before you buy.


That is the *most important FIRST* *decision* that has to be made.
Everything else is based upon that one


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

No one needs plans for a rifle... Just wanting one is reason enough


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

moeh1 said:


> 223 ammo is cheap, but sometimes 5.56 surplus is cheaper (same round but higher pressure). Some 223 rifles are rated for both.


My understanding is you can shoot 223 ammo in a 5.56 rifle but not 5.56 in a 223 rifle.

30 06 isn't the most user friendly round. 223, 22 250, 243 are more freindly to shoot.


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## lonelytree (Feb 28, 2008)

I've been eyeballing a .223 Savage in the local pawn shop for a couple weeks. Like new, with scope, camo stock.... $325. My last Savage was a 110E 7MM and it was about as accurate as a Whitehouse briefing. 

If you could find one like it, buy it, then give him a T3 for Christmas. 

A person needs 5 guns.
A sweet pistol - 629 S&W .44 Mag
A 12 GA - Mossburg 
A Large rifle - Tikka T3 30-06 unless going after sheep or large bear.
A .22 - Ruger 10-22
An assault weapon - AK47 or AR Platform.

Opinions vary. :l33t:


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## wirejeweler (May 1, 2011)

Allen W said:


> My understanding is you can shoot 223 ammo in a 5.56 rifle but not 5.56 in a 223 rifle.
> 
> You can shoot 223 in a 5.56, but not 5.56 in a 223


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## Badger (Jun 11, 2010)

I recommend a .243. It takes care of coyotes and even larger varments with authority. 
It is acceptable for everything from ground hogs to whitetail. Ammo is reasonable and and available. It won't beat you up or cause flinch or other bad habits while you learn to shoot it. 
Don't rule out Howa. It is an extremely well built rifle at a resonable price. They offer a scope package with a Hogue stock for about $600.00. You won't be disappointed.


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## lonelytree (Feb 28, 2008)

I want this gun in 7.62X39.

http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-527-carbine/

Won't order it until I get to hold one.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

lonelytree said:


> I want this gun in 7.62X39.
> 
> http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-527-carbine/
> 
> Won't order it until I get to hold one.


ooooooooo... I like that, and I got plenty of ammo for it... 7.62x39 has a lot more target punch than a .223


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> No one needs *plans for a rifle*... Just wanting one is reason enough


You have to know what you want it *to DO*.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You have to know what you want it *to DO*.


Go BANG...


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## SilverVista (Jan 12, 2005)

Many, many thanks, all of you! I'm thinking that the Cabella's gift certificate may be the way to go. FWIW, I shared the same question about rifles with the guys at work. I'm the stodgy-old-lady-bookkeeper in a hydraulics parts, repair and custom fab shop and the owner and the mechanic are both country-raised thirty-somethings. I'm fortunate that they're easy-going and tolerate me exceptionally well.  Both fell on the floor laughing when I posed my question, and both offered many of the same opinions I've read here, and then asked if we really wanted something that would go BOOM, or just something that would hit a varmint a quarter-mile away from the warmth of the kitchen window. Hmmmm... might have hit very close to home there...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

simi-steading said:


> Go BANG...


They all do that much, but that doesn't mean you should buy a 22 to kill Grizzlies


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## Silvercreek Farmer (Oct 13, 2005)

lonelytree said:


> I want this gun in 7.62X39.
> 
> http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-527-carbine/
> 
> Won't order it until I get to hold one.


I've held one, and they even let me dry fire it:banana: That trigger is mighty cool! All wood is not created equally though....


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Silvercreek Farmer said:


> I've held one, and they even let me dry fire it:banana: That trigger is mighty cool! *All wood is not created equally though....*



:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:


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## TnTnTn (Dec 23, 2004)

gunseller said:


> You need to make sure what all of his plans for the rifle are before you buy. The statements about a 308 being handier than a 30-06 because of the shorter action is all talk and no go. The 30-06 action is 1/2 longer, big deal. I sell firearms for a living. In the lower cost fire arms I would go for a Ruger American. In a step up the Tikka is a very good choice. Is a 30-06 a bigger than is needed for a coyote? Yes but so what it still kills coyotes. If he is 100% coyotes are his only need a 223 would be my choice. If he wants a 30-06 because he wants a 30-06 go for it.
> Steve


I think the short action rifles are noticeably handier. Yes they are only a 1/2" shorter but the bolt throw is a 1/2" shorter every time the action is cycled. I know it isn't a real big deal. Everyone has an opinion and mine wasn't formed by reading magazines or internet forums. I have owned and hunted with long action and short action rifles for over 40 years. I wholeheartedly agree about the Ruger American-I have the other calibers covered and am waiting on a 22-250 version.


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## Silvercreek Farmer (Oct 13, 2005)

TnTnTn said:


> I think the short action rifles are noticeably handier. Yes they are only a 1/2" shorter but the bolt throw is a 1/2" shorter every time the action is cycled. I know it isn't a real big deal. Everyone has an opinion and mine wasn't formed by reading magazines or internet forums. I have owned and hunted with long action and short action rifles for over 40 years. I wholeheartedly agree about the Ruger American-I have the other calibers covered and am waiting on a 22-250 version.


I agree on the action length part. That's 1/2" coming and going, so one less inch in the entire movement, plus the shorter actions are generally stiffer and thus more accurate. .308s won out over 30-06s in long range accuracy constests a long time ago. That being said, the average hunter probably can't tell the difference in that department. 

I haven't shot a Ruger American, but have shot an Savage Axis/Edge and while not fancy, it was plenty accurate. Pretty amazing what you can get for $300 and change these days. I paid $400 for a Weatherby Vanguard over ten years ago and it was about the best "value" rifle on the market at the time.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I agree on the action length part. That's 1/2" coming and going, so one less inch in the entire movement


It's also 1/2" of steel in the bolt, reciever, and chamber you're not carrying around.
I dont think they are inherently "more accurate" though.
Too many variables contribute to "accuracy"


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## Silvercreek Farmer (Oct 13, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's also 1/2" of steel in the bolt, reciever, and chamber you're not carrying around.
> I dont think they are inherently "more accurate" though.
> Too many variables contribute to "accuracy"


So maybe I was wrong about the stiffer action part but here is some history on the 308 vs the 30-06: (not trying to start a peeing match, for most folks the difference doesn't really matter, but at a 1000 yards...)

All that aside, lets go back to when the .30-06 and .308 were the only cartridges allowed in NRA match rifle matches. Both cartridges were used in barrels of equal quality as well as the same action and stocks by several top shooters in the USA. Both cartridges were used in matches at ranges from 100 through 1000 yards. Many thousands of rounds were fired in both types. Bullets from 168 through 200 grains were used with several powder, case and primer combinations.

In comparing accuracy between the .308 and .30-06, folks who used each quickly agreed on one thing: .308s were two to three times more accurate than the .30-06. In the early 1960s, it was also observed that competitors with lower classifications using .308s were getting higher scores than higher classified folks using .30-06s; at all ranges. By the middle to late 1960s, all the top highpower shooters and virtually all the rest had switched to the .308. The Highpower Committee had received so many complaints of ties not being able to be broke between shooters using the .308 and shooting all their shots in the tie-breaking V-ring, something had to be done to resolve this issue. In 1966, the NRA cut in half the target scoring ring dimensions.

At the peak of the .30-06's use as a competition cartridge, the most accurate rifles using it would shoot groups at 200 yards of about 2 inches, at 300 of about 3 inches. The 600-yard groups were 6 to 7 inches and at 1000 yards about 16 inches. As the high-scoring ring in targets was 3 inches at 200 and 300 yards, 12 inches at 600 and 20 inches at 1000, the top scores fired would have 90+ percent of the shots inside this V-ring.

Along came the 7.62mm NATO and its commercial version; the .308 Winchester. In the best rifles, 200 yard groups were about 3/4ths inch, at 300 about 1-1/2 inch. At 600 yards, groups were about 2-1/2 inch and at 1000 about 7 to 8 inches. It was not very long before the .30-06 round no longer won matches nor set any records; all it's records were broken by the .308 by a considerable margin. Some accuracy tests at 600 yards with the .308 produced test groups in the 1 to 2 inch range. These were 20 to 40 shot groups. No .30-06 has ever come close to shooting that well.

At 1000 yards, where both the .30-06 and .308 were allowed in Palma matches, the .308 was the clear-cut most accurate of the two. If top shooters felt the .30-06 was a more accurate round, they would have used it - they didn't. In fact by the early 1970s, the scoring ring dimensions on the 800 - 1000 yard target were also cut in about half due to the accuracy of both the .308 Win. over the .30-06 and the .30-.338 over the .300 H&H when used in long range matches.

Most top highpower shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 is its shorter, fatter case promotes more uniform and gentle push on the bullet due to a higher loading density (less air space) and a more easily uniformly ignitable powder charge.


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## poorboy (Apr 15, 2006)

.22 Hornet to kill 4 coyotes here on my farm in the last year 100 t0 225 yds.
Shot two in late winter and sold the hides, two in warm weather and left 'em fer the clean up "boys".
it's an old model 158 handy-rifle, recently acquired a Savage Axis in .223, just getting acquainted with it...


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## tamarackreg (Mar 13, 2006)

Check out the Ruger American rifle. It's a well designed, well built, accurate rifle at a very reasonable price.

Also, Remington reduced recoil shells make the .30-06 a joy to shoot and are effective for short to medium range game. Available in .308 and other calibers too.


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## gunseller (Feb 20, 2010)

I still say the average shooter will never tell the differance between the long and shot action, I actual like the long action better as the short action feels like I an short stroking the action. The short action should be more accurate because of less flex in the action. Silvercreek Farmer the 308 is not fatter than the 30-06. They are the same size but the 308 is shorter. With 180 grain of heaver bullets the 30-06 is enough faster to make it more effective for hunting. I have been hunting for around 50 years. I have probable fired more rounds at game than some have seen game animals. I have shot both the 30-06 and the 308 in NRA High Power Rifle Matches. Now the 223/5.56 rounds own the records but that does not make them an effective long range deer round. Yes the 308 does seem to be more accurate at longer ranges but not the amount Silvercreek Farmer said. For hunting the differance is of no account as most shots are less than 100 yards. And at 300 yards most hunters can not shoot well enough to tell the differance. As I stated before if he wants a 30-06 get one. Although a gift card with a picture of several rifles and the statement "You Pick the one you want as a reward for being the best husband I could have" will get you all the rewards a rifle in hand could earn you.
Steve


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> "*You Pick the one you want* as a reward for being the best husband I could have"


That's always to best way to "give a gun"

If you pick one they DON'T really like, they will *pretend* to like it so as not to hurt your feelings, but they will always WISH they had something else


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Silvercreek Farmer said:


> Most top highpower shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 is its shorter,* fatter* case promotes more uniform and gentle push on the bullet due to a higher loading density (less air space) and a more easily uniformly ignitable powder charge.



I agree with what you quoted....except for the bolded part.

The case is not fatter....same case as the '06, just shorter.

I know....nit picking! :sing:


Tim


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## Silvercreek Farmer (Oct 13, 2005)

tarbe said:


> I agree with what you quoted....except for the bolded part.
> 
> The case is not fatter....same case as the '06, just shorter.
> 
> ...


I guess the author figured it is kinda like a 6'6" guy with a 40 inch waist and a 5'5" guy with a 40 inch waist!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> The case is not fatter....same case as the '06, just shorter.
> 
> I know....nit picking!


It's not "nit picking" to be *ACCURATE* with details, especially when discussing* firearms and cartridges.*

MIS-information can cause *BIG *problems


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## lonelytree (Feb 28, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's not "nit picking" to be *ACCURATE* with details, especially when discussing* firearms and cartridges.*
> 
> MIS-information can cause *BIG *problems


Safety in forums! ound:


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

My .308s are all long action which I prefer-try loading a rd quick at -20 with gloves on and you'll see/feel the difference...besides having a long action rcvr gives me more barrel/caliber options.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

zant said:


> My .308s are all long action which I prefer-try loading a rd quick at -20 with gloves on and you'll see/feel the difference...besides having a long action rcvr gives me more barrel/caliber options.


And if you have a long throat, you can seat your bullets out and effectively increase case capacity. Heck, you might be able to approach '06 velocities! eep:

edit: for the record, I am a 308 guy....just couldn't resist. Must be in a scrappy mood today.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

GF has a long throat..if I want .06 velocities,I'll just put my .06 barrel on...Great thing about Savages


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## irondale (Oct 3, 2012)

I second the opinion of letting him pick it out himself. One of the most important things about a rifle is how it fits you. If the stock does not fit you, it will be difficult to shoot accurately.


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## SilverVista (Jan 12, 2005)

You are all terrific! Thank you. Here's the plan: 

I'm sending DH to Cabella's to make his own choice. Not going to buy him a gift card because I don't want to break the bank but I also don't want to limit his choices. Besides, he has a Cabella's card and gets a discount. I'm going to print out this entire thread and give it to him so he has the opportunity to enjoy the whole conversation, and perhaps glean some ideas before the salesmen get ahold of him. Will probably drive down sometime next week -- I'll let you know the outcome!


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## OH Boy (Dec 22, 2010)

My vote is for something in the .243, 25/06, or /.270 range. All of these calibers would be good for varmints and also deer/big game. 

30/06 is just a LOT of gun for coyotes. It will blow them to pieces. If you have any thought about selling those hides, a 30/06 will ruin the hide. 

The recoil is heavier and the ammo is more costly compared to the smaller calibers too.


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## gunseller (Feb 20, 2010)

I can tell some have not shot coyotes with many different cal rifles. A heavy bullet out of a 30-06 will do less damage to a yote hide than a light fast bullet out of a 243 or 25-06. 243, 25-06, 270 and 30-06 all cost about the same for ammo, start around $17 per box. You have made a good choice on how to give your DH a new rifle.
Steve


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## catahoula (Dec 14, 2005)

Cabin Fever said:


> Look for a Cabela's, Bass Pro, or Gander Mountain gift card in a $750 caliber.


Best answer really.

Your husband wants a 30.06 let him get a 30.06. I'd be a little bummed if I tore the wrapping off a long box only to find not the rifle I wanted, and then to hear the words. "Well sweetie, the people on the homesteading forum told me you needed a (insert caliber here) instead." 

Go to the gun counter, ask what they have in a 30.06, check the price range, purchase a gift card. Cabin Fever hit it sqaurely on the head...
Merry Christmas. 
Guy.

Hah,I guess I should have read clear through the second page. It will be a Merry Christmas after all!


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## hillbilly123 (Jun 3, 2012)

.30-06 is versatile, but I do prefer a .308. .30-06 has been around a long time and probably killed more game than anything else out there, cant go wrong with it.

Yes, its overkill for coyotes, but a bigger gun is always better vs an under powered one, at least in my book.

If you want a quality rifle, that's relatively inexpensive, accurate, and made in the USA, look at the TC Venture.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted by *Silvercreek Farmer*
> _Most top highpower shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 _


There's still no proof a 308 IS "much more accurate" than a 30-06, since when you look at MILITARY matches, you're not comparing CARTRIDGES *only* , you're comparing different FIREARMS too

Shoot both cartridges in a Remington 700, and *with the proper loads*, one is no more accurate than the other


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