# Riflescope opinion



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

As I mentioned before I'm picking up a 7mm-08 and have been checking various scopes for it. Budget is a major concern. I have been looking at the Vortex Crossfire II in 4x12 with a 40mm objective and parallax adjustment. Midway has them for about $189. Is anyone familiar with these scopes? If so what is your opinion? Just like the Marlin X7, Inexpensive does not necessarily mean cheap. Does this scope fall into the same category?


----------



## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

I have 2 Vortex Optics; a Strikefire red dot mounted on an S&W M&P15-22 and a 1-4X Vi[per PST mounted on my FAL.

I've owned both for a little over 4 years and have never had an issue with either. The glass is not "Luepold" quality, but it is very, very good especially for the price. Mechanically both work as advertised. From what I've read (never experienced) their customer service is top notch.

Chuck


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

i Have heard good things about vortex from several people I shoot with but have not tried them , they make a nice binocular that i have used when shooting at the range with friends.

I am thinking about vortex although I like the nikons i have been using and may just keep with them.


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Did you check optic planet or swfa ?

http://www.opticsplanet.com/s/vortex-crossfire-ii-in-4x12?cat=21


http://swfa.com/Crossfire-II-C1461.aspx


Both my 7mm o8's wear Pentex scopes.

 Al


----------



## ihuntgsps (Mar 10, 2008)

Nikon has some decent scopes in your price range. I bought a savage .308 with Nikon scope as a package and was impressed with the quality for the price.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I have a Nikon Prostaff 3x9 on my .243. Great scope. Im looking for a budget 4x12 for the 7mm-08. Wish I could afford a Nikon with those specs.


----------



## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Redfield makes a real nice scope for the money, they are Leupold's sister company.
I prefer a 3x9 on hunting rifles, and not a fan or the large diameter objective scopes.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

What is your application?

If its shooting from rest or bench, where you have time to fool with adjustments,
Then there is no harm in getting target knobs, as long as they are under caps.
Exposed 'Tactical' knobs are always a bad idea, no matter what kind of 'Lock' they have.

If you are mostly hunting, where you won't have a bunch of time to fool with adjustments,
Then consider something like a fixed 4X or 6X magnification.
These usually don't have big turret knobs to get banged around,
And usually have 'Friction' adjustments (instead of 'Clicks') which allow you to put the bullet impact point right where you want it instead of 1/4" or 1/2" 'Close' to where you actually want it.

That fine tune is worth the price of admission, plus you often don't need to mess with a bunch of adjustments when hunting...

----------

Burris is an often overlooked brand that has very high quality and very reasonable prices.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

It will be a combination of both. No matter how well I shoot i can not justify in my mind shooting at game beyond 300 yds. I know the 7mm-08 can probably take game at greater distances then that, especially with the proper bullet. but it is my own self imposed limitation. It will also be used beyond 300yds. for target shooting. 4-6 power for hunting, 10-12 power for longer range shooting. Overall I think it's a good choice.


----------



## beenaround (Mar 2, 2015)

people go on about vortex so I looked through a few, wasn't impressed. I like Nikon's.

find a youtube vid on picking a sniper scope. Apparently there are only a few glass producers and everyone gets it from them and it varies from month to month.

You'll love the rifle.


----------



## RonTgottagoat (Feb 27, 2014)

I would say buy the best scope you can afford. The high $$$$ scopes become worth it at dark 30 when you can squeeze the last few minutes out of your hunt. That vheaper scope may make u call a hunt 10 minutes early cause you can't see through it anymore. I think most hunters have had the heartache of climbing down and bumping that big deer that came out in the last few minutes of legal light


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I ordered the scope a couple of days ago. The rifle is already in the mail. By next week I may have something to post about.


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

I'm Old Skool, but not fixed power Old Skool.

I've always liked 2x7's and 3x9's with big objectives for my hunting rifles. I like having the versatility, as we might hunt timber in the morning and beanfields in the afternoon.

With a 3x9, I've made shots at 8 yards and 400 yards.


----------



## tamarackreg (Mar 13, 2006)

FWIW - My Redfield Revolution is in your price range and has been a very good scope;
The former Leupold VariX II(?)


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

My rifle, my scope, and all the stuff I ordered from Midway all showed up on the same day. I'm like a kid at Christmas. Hopefully I'll have everything together and ready for shooting on the Fourth.


----------



## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

JJ Grandits said:


> My rifle, my scope, and all the stuff I ordered from Midway all showed up on the same day. I'm like a kid at Christmas. Hopefully I'll have everything together and ready for shooting on the Fourth.


Sounds like you're having excellent luck, I love it when a plan comes together! 

Me, not so much.

Ordered a new Colt AR6951 (9mm) on the 12th from a small on-line dealer, great price, carbine in stock. Nothing heard for 2 weeks, phone calls and emails not returned. Turns out they were on vacation. Shipped last Friday. Call my FFL, no problem, come and get it when UPS says it's here. Meanwhile I order the usual; magazines, mag loader, furniture, light mount etc. Optic comes next month. 

WED, UPS says"delivered". Call FFL, no answer all day, swing by on the way home, place is locked up, no sign etc. On the way through town pass by a memorial service, but didn't think much of it. Try calling the next day, still no answer. Then I google the FFL, and you guessed it, his obituary pops up. Very sad, it was sudden and he really was a great guy. 

Called back on Friday, got one of the guys that work there, they received a note from UPS that one of the adjacent shops signed for their package, but he can't read the name on the note. I give him the name that UPS listed on the delivery notification, and of course he doesn't recognize it, say's he'll "ask around". 

Received a message today, that they did find the carbine, but they're not sure when the owners wife will be back at work to handle the transfer as she's not handling his passing well, no one else handles transfers. 

So, now I'm in waiting mode.......at least it's safe, and I have other toys to play with while it sorts out.

What scope did you end up getting??

Chuck


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

The Vortex Crossfire II 4X12 AO. Was playing around with it and am very impressed with the quality. Very clear. I was going to mount it, but then figured spend the couple of bucks and have it done right.
Picked up a box of Hornady 139gr interlock to break it in and then I'll start reloading with Barnes 140 gr. VLD hunting bullet. If all turns out right from my research that might be the sweet pill. It has a BC of .510 and I believe a SD of .268. I'll start checking it out with IMR 4064 and 4350 although I hear Varget works well. 

It will probably take awhile to come up with that "right' load.
I suffer from that one ragged hole disease.


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Most scopes are clear enough in decent light. What separates the men from the boys is how crisp they are at dawn and dusk, and how well you can see those crosshairs. And don't forget robust build.

Case in point...A few years ago, we were gathered up at about 0430, picking stands before going out for the morning hunt. I could take my old Bausch & Lomb and tell there was a 8"x10" sign shining in the moonlight, on the pipeline a hundred yards away. My buddy could tell with his Nikon Monarch that the sign had writing on it.

Another one of our group picked up his rifle, looked through his Nightforce and read the writing on the sign.


----------



## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

JJ,

I think you'll like the Vortex, I've had pretty good luck with my two. Still prefer my Swarovski's and Leupold's, but at their price point they're a good optics.

Maybe you'll get over the "one hole disease", I did. Used to spend countless hours testing and chronographing in search of the perfect load. It wasn't until I started competing in silhouette and the 800-1000 yards stuff, that I realized it wasn't helping me in matches at all. What got me into master class, was less time at the bench, and more time behind the rifle actually practicing for matches. Reading wind/conditions has a much greater effect than shaving a few .10ths off group size. 

I now strive to develop a solid sub MOA load with consistent chrono stats and practice with it. Actually 1 MOA is OK, cause I'm about a 1.5-2 MOA "system" under field conditions. 

Chuck


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I can see your point. I have three loads for the .243 and the more often I shoot them the better they get. Good loads without enough trigger time don't do much.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I'll try to make this as brief and concise as possible...

'Less Expensive' optics have the lenses 'Centered' to about 10% of the true optical centerline.
*THAT MEANS MOUNTING CORRECTLY IS ESSENTIAL!*

When you get optics, check the range of adjustment, make sure it's in the center, both on vertical and horizontal axis.

Once the cross hairs are centered in the tube/adjustment,
Then work the RINGS/MOUNTS to get that optic, without touching the adjustments,
Centered with the bore.

*Remember, you only have about 10% of the lens centerline to work with here,
So the closer you get the optic tube mounted to horizontal/vertical centerline of the bore,
The more accurate the optics will be AT ANY RANGE...*

It's MUCH CHEAPER to work the rings on the mount than to crank in a bunch of adjustment into the optics, then have EVERY SHOT INACCURATE since the lenses are no longer centered with each other!
Rings are cheap, if you screw up, it's the cheapest part to replace...

----------

The best way I can explain this is,
One guy locally purchased a $275 mount and rings, 'Guarinteed' to be dead straight with each other...
Then screwed them on an off the shelf rifle.

The rings came up straight with each other, but the rifle was shooting 12" off center @ 100 yards.
So believing the rings being straight with each other was enough,
(NOT straight with the bore, the drilled/tapped holes on the receiver were the issue)
He commenced to cranking in 12" of 'Right', 48 'Clicks...
The lenses were no longer in the 10% of center range, and all subsequent shots were wondering all over the place, the best he could do was about a 3" group.

Now mind you, this was $650 worth of 'Premium' scope...

When he FINALLY got around to bringing the rifle to me with his complaints,
He wanted a new barrel, thought the barrel was junk...
Was looking at a $500 custom barrel.

The solution was simple,
I could have filled the receiver holes, re-drilled the holes centerline with the optics mounts...

What I did was shave a little off the ring/clamp to move the tube 'Right',
And lap the rings straight with each other again so they didn't bend the tube.
The rifle shot 3/4 MOA with no issues at all.

It was simply he was outside of the WORKING part of the lenses, 
Once the lenses were aligned with the bore, and he was looking through the CENTERLINE of the lenses, the rifle shot fine, no optical illusions.

This is EASY to do, you simply figure out which side is the solid mount of the rings,
Which side is the 'Clamp'.
Working the Clamp does you no good at all,
Work the solid mount side,
And remove material to bring the optic tube in line with the bore.

Once you have the tube centerline with the rifle bore,
(I use a plumb line hung with a weight, gravity never lies to you)
And the vertical line in the reticle dead straight with the plumb line,
Then work the rings with a lapping bar to both make them straight with each other,
And to put your elevation into the rings.

This is where a knot or 'Zip Tie' on the plumb line comes in.
When the bore is lined up with that plumb line and it's marker (Knot or Zip Tie)
Then you work the mount/rings to bring the tube centerline to that marker.
The bore and tube are working together at this point, and you are in the centerline of the optics lenses...
Suddenly you won't get wondering shots, no optical illusions, and your rifle *Should* shoot right on the ballistics tables for the ammo you are using.

One warning,
If you are using 'Inexpensive' rings, they will NOT be aligned with each other,
They WILL twist the tube when you clamp the tube!
(and I do ALL rings, no matter what the 'Guarantee' or cost)

The ONLY way to ensure your rings are aligned with each other is a lapping bar.
This will show you GRAPHICALLY how much twist is in the rings, and what direction they are twisting.
A twisted tube will NEVER shoot straight. There are no exceptions.
Twist the tube, even 1/10mm, and the lenses are no longer in alignment with each other.

Once you use a lapping bar for the first time, you will NEVER mount an optic without lapping the rings first!
Bent tubes are common, and the single biggest reason people say the rifle/ammo/optics 'Won't Shoot" past 300 or so yards...

Personally, When I was 17 and joined the Marine Corps, (and thought I knew everything about shooting),
I wouldn't have given you a single dollar for lapped rings.
14 years of building long range, hyper accurate rifles for the Marines, I know better and won't mount an optic without a lapping bar.
It's the single most important thing you can do to make even less expensive optics accurate...


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Years ago, a local gunsmith made a very simple product to check for ring alignment. Or so I've been told.

It was the pointed end bars for ring alignment.

Don't know if that's true, but it's a good story...


----------



## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

Was at a recent gunshow and Osprey Global had a booth. I did't check them out ill the second day. Was pretty impressed with their glass as well as their warranty. If you have the receipt your guaranteed for life, no matter what happens!

I ended up buying a green laser/light combo to mount on a mini-14. cost out the door was 170, seems like? Time will tell what they have and worth. I'm wanting some big glass for another rifle and seriously considering them.

I have Leupold, Burris, old model Redfield, and old model Weavers. All have served me well. Many,,,or a few other cheaper model scopes have went south and ended up traded off or discarded.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Jolly said:


> Years ago, a local gunsmith made a very simple product to check for ring alignment. Or so I've been told.
> 
> It was the pointed end bars for ring alignment.
> 
> Don't know if that's true, but it's a good story...


Machinist have used them since the beginning of lathes,
They are called 'Centers', or sometimes tail stock centers.
The point on the center fits into a divot or hole in the work piece,
And all the cutting you do is around that center divot.

Centers will get you close on keeping the tube from bending between rings,
But they don't do a thing to ensure the rings are 'Round' in the first place, and not clamping your tube into an 'Egg' shape.
If your rings came with 'Fabric Tape' inside of them, they are usually not 'Round' and they usually are not specifically sized for the tube you are using.

That's where a correct size lapping bar comes in...

The centers will tell you if your rings are pointing, more or less at each other,
They do NOTHING to tell you if your rings are 'Round' and won't distort the tubes,
And they don't do anything for determining if the bore of the rings are aligned with the BARREL BORE...

If the rings are say, 7" 'Left' @ 100 yards,
Then you have to crank that optic adjustment 7" 'Right' to compensate.
You are out of the optic lenses center, and you get optical illusion missing of your targets.

That misalignment will also screw you for ballistics tables.
The optics center line, and the bore centerline are at different angles to each other.

Change range and your zero will shift,
Since the optics are at one angle on the receiver,
The bore is at another angle in the receiver,
Your optical line of sight and your ballistic line (bore/bullet path) CROSS at the 100 yard mark,
Under 100 yards, or over 100 yards, and the bullet is no longer on the line of sight...

This is pretty easy to check for, 
Shoot 50 yard group off a bench, Then shoot a 100 yard group off a bench, then shoot a 200 yard group off that same bench.

If the groups shift left to right or right to left of your aim point as range increases/decreases,
Then your line of sight isn't square with the bore...

The same is true with elevation,
Shoot a 50 yard group, then a 100 yard group, then a 200 yard group...
If the bullet IMPACT point climbs or drops more than the ballistics tables say it should, you have the center line of the optics inclined or declined with the center line of the barrel.

Bullets WILL strike 'High' at shorter ranges, while longer ranges they will drop and strike lower.
The idea is to shoot right on the ballistics tables for your ammo...
A set amount of drop, something you can ACCURATELY compensate for.

Once the rifle/mounts/rings/optics are all on the same centerline,
You simply dial in ('Dope') the optics adjustments for the range/spin drift, and you can determine where that bullet will strike no matter the range.

Unless, of course, you want to fire THOUSANDS of rounds and develop your own ballistics tables for the misaligned optics mounts...
Personally, I'd rather get the mounts/rings/optics right in the first place,
And just dial in the specifics from the ballistics tables,
Hit EXACTLY what I was aiming at in the first place!


----------

