# Older dog and accidents--advice?



## hisenthlay (Feb 23, 2005)

Over the last year or so, my 11 year old Bernese Mountain Dog has started having accidents (urinating) when left alone in the house. It's not normal incontinence--he can hold it fine for 8 or more hours if we're home--but if we leave him for even 15 minutes in the house, he now has accidents about half the time. I believe that it's related to anxiety, anger, or something like that. He _never_ used to have accidents (for about 9 straight years) and he was always a pretty relaxed dog, but the accidents are constant now. Is there anything we can do? 

It happened yesterday, for instance, that he was home alone for about 6 hours while we were out, and he had an accident then. My guy got home, cleaned it up, let the dog out to pee, then left again to run an errand. When I got home about 45 minutes later, the dog had peed all over the floor again. It was everywhere, and he smelled like urine, too, so I had to give him a shower. We have him separated from the other dogs now (so they don't get his urine on them), in a large bathroom with a tile floor, a good window for looking out, a light, a water bowl, and a fan. He doesn't like being separated, but I'm not giving 3 big dogs a bath every few days because they stink like urine. 

Another reason I think it's anxiety related is that I have sometimes found that he tried to squeeze himself in the very small space behind the tub and knocked everything over back there, and even chewed the tops off of plastic shampoo bottles--and he's not a chewer. He's terrified of thunderstorms, though, and he tries to squeeze into small spaces in a storm. Sometimes his breathing gets so rapid in a storm that I'm afraid he'll have a heart attack. This fear, too, is something that has really gotten much worse as he's gotten older. 

Have any of you dealt with this? Are there any anti-anxiety medications, perhaps, that I could give him in the mornings (and maybe during storms)? He's perfectly fine and normal for the most part when we're home, so he doesn't have generalized dementia--I'm not exactly sure how to deal with it. I made a vet appointment for Saturday, but any suggestions I could take to the vet would be appreciated.


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## GoldenMom (Jan 2, 2005)

Yes there are anti-anxiety meds that dogs can take. Which one depends on the situation and the dog's health. 

An 11 year old Berner needs to have some blood work done to rule out the beginning of kidney insufficency or Cushing's disease or liver disease or any of the multitude of things that can cause increased urine output.

If you suspect Canine Cognitive Dysfunction here's a little checklist of some the common signs: http://www.anipryl.com/cds_checklist.asp


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## hisenthlay (Feb 23, 2005)

Thanks, Sarah. I'll ask the vet about all of that. I should've mentioned that he was at the vet about 4 months ago, and she tested his blood, urine, and feces. I know she checked for Diabetes, and for organ function, and I'm not sure what else, and she said he looked surprisingly great on all counts, except that he might be very slightly hypothyroid (even though he's very skinny, which is weird). I don't know if she checked for Cushings--I'll ask about that. At the time we had him checked, we mentioned the accidents, but we were more concerned about his low weight. He was about 85 lbs at his prime, and he was down to 62 lbs at the vet's that day. His appetite and general attitude are fine, and he eats good food, but he just doesn't gain weight. He has a lot of dietary sensitivities, so the best we could come up with was to put chicken or fish broth on his kibble to get him to eat more. He eats about 3.5 cups a day, no matter how much we offer him. I think he's up to about 70 lbs now, but we'll get a good read on Saturday. 

I also want the vet to look at a cyst near his sternum. She aspirated it last time and said it was just a fatty mass, and at that time it was about the size and shape of a goose egg. Now it's more like a big oval-shaped orange/grapefruit, and I think it must be uncomfortable for him, because it's totally invisible from the outside, buried under the collar area to the right of his trachea and esophagus. It's still mobile and smooth, and you can feel the lump when you pet him there.

I looked through the checklist, and I'm relieved to see that it doesn't look like he has any of that, except for the accidents. 

Poor guy. He's my baby, and I love him. I hope we can get this all straightened out, because otherwise he's really in good shape for a Berner of his age. He still smiles a lot, and makes me smile, too.


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## GoldenMom (Jan 2, 2005)

Good! Very glad to hear he had a full work up recently. I doubt they did a specific test for Cushings. I look at the regular panel and only test for that if the Alkaline Phosphatase is high, so if his was ok or slightly elevated there is no need to test for it. Maybe it wouldn't be a horrible idea to do a small panel (just liver/kidneys/protein/glucose+CBC) again since he's had so much weight loss. Some things take a little while to show up on blood work. 

I'm sure trying him on an anti-anxiety med or two would be OK. Hopefully he'll respond and be back to his normal self.

Let us know how he does.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I give my BC acepromazine for thunderstorms and fireworks. It's only good for a few hours.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

Some dogs have seizures on Ace...not all, just some. NEVER give it to an epi dog (I hear).

I use Melatonin for my dog that was afraid of thunderstorms...give at least 45 minutes before storms start. Dog just sleeps and is relaxed. Turns out it wasn't the thunder that was scaring him, it was the flashes of light.

Mon


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

At his age his hearing and sight are getting poor. He feels less secure because of this. If he is otherwise healthy, this may be why he is reacting so poorly to your absence.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

I have a couple male dog diapers you can have. My dog only used them for a few weeks before he passed on recently. I used pampers as a liner, it worked good. If you want them, PM me your address and I'll mail them to you.


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## hisenthlay (Feb 23, 2005)

Sarah, thanks for the suggestions--I'll raise them with my vet on Saturday. This is a new vet for us, and she seems really great so far, but I like having some idea of what to expect from her, and having some knowledgable questions for her, too.

His sight and hearing must be declining with age, but I haven't noticed any clear sign of it. He doesn't have cataracts, and he seems to still be able to notice things off in the distance, and hear me call. 

Melatonin seems like a good idea--I'll ask the vet. I've used Ace on horses, but not on the dogs. It seems like pretty strong stuff, and I hate to think of him going through life all doped up, poor guy--but I may not know that much about it, really. I think of Ace as more of a sedative, and I was hoping there was something that would treat anxiety specifically--but maybe it's the same thing. :shrug: 

Kim, thanks very much for your offer. I was wondering about those diapers--especially with a male dog, do they have a tendency to make the dog smell like urine? I would use those if he were generally incontinent around the house, but since it's only when we're gone, we shut him in the bathroom where it's easy to wipe up, and mostly he manages to pee in one area and hang out in another, so he doesn't get it all over himself and need a bath. Occasionally, though, he makes a real mess. :shrug:


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## almostthere (Nov 9, 2003)

Not to scare you, but when my 9 yr old male boxer started doing that he had a swollen prostate. He had to be fixed. We never had him fixed before because he didnt like other dogs, not even girl dogs, and he had a snowballs chance in you know where of having any offspring. So all is well for about a year and he startes doing it again. This time no swelling, no infection, no cancer...but he was having seizures. We found a friend who had other dogs and expierence with this and let him go live there. He had a Grand Mal right in front of this guy one time...and hasn't since. He just has to be very carefull about his diet and not letting him get over worked.


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## hisenthlay (Feb 23, 2005)

That's an interesting thought. My Berner (Ansel) is intact, and the vets over the last couple years have said that his prostate is "slightly enlarged", but it doesn't seem to be getting worse, and none of them have recommended doing anything about it.

Ansel did have an unidentified neurological problem about 3 years ago, where he _overnight_ lost most of the coordination in his hind end, and his eyes became a bit droopy (both sides). He wasn't in any pain, but he looked like he was drunk in the back, and he could barely stand or walk. I took him to a well-respected neurologist in Chicago (where I lived at the time), and several other vets as well, and none could really say what it was. Luckily, it was regenerative, and now he is about 85% back to normal--he is still a bit uncoordinated in back, so he has difficulty jumping and sometimes going down stairs, and his gait is a little off at the walk, but he looks almost normal at the trot. 

I call that a stroke, but I don't know what it was. Perhaps related, sometimes, we notice one of his legs trembling, and last weekend we noticed his whole body trembling, very much like a seizure or something--it wasn't fearful trembling or shivering from cold--just all over shaking. He wouldn't stop for about 30 seconds, and we got worried and I took him outside to try to distract him, and he stopped shaking immediately and ran over and peed on the bushes and was happy. 

Maybe getting worked up/anxious is a trigger for seizures, and that's when he urinates? But he doesn't have accidents during storms when we're home, so.... I just don't know.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

You know, I didn't think of this until just a couple seconds ago...put a belly-band on him! You could maybe use an Ace-wrap, wind it around his belly and the "spiggot" when you're ready to go somewhere. If he pees, he will pee on himself...they HATE this! A couple times seems to cure the problem.

Maybe someone here can tell you more about belly bands for male dogs...I've never used one, just heard about them.

Mon


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## farmhome5 (Dec 20, 2005)

I use a male diaper for our old boy. I use a maxi pad inside, can't see spending the extra money on the dog pads and we always have them handy with four girls in the house. He doesn't mind at all and even goes over gets a pad and brings it to me! It's great for me, no mess to clean up. Gotta love those old guys!


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

Well all I can say is that my old boy was only dribbling so a diaper inside the male dog garment (belly band) worked fine. I would think that it might discourage him from going while it's on. Like I said, you can have them or just one to try if you want. I don't want anything for it. Oh and no, there was no urine smell at all. Just let me know!




hisenthlay said:


> Sarah, thanks for the suggestions--I'll raise them with my vet on Saturday. This is a new vet for us, and she seems really great so far, but I like having some idea of what to expect from her, and having some knowledgable questions for her, too.
> 
> His sight and hearing must be declining with age, but I haven't noticed any clear sign of it. He doesn't have cataracts, and he seems to still be able to notice things off in the distance, and hear me call.
> 
> ...


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## hisenthlay (Feb 23, 2005)

Update: Well, I took him to the vet on Saturday, and she said that it did indeed sound like anxiety, and that there were a couple good anxiety meds she could give him, but first she wanted to aspirate that lump in his thoracic cavity again to be sure that it was still ok, and that he didn't have any metastatic problems that would compromise his liver, because I guess these anxiety meds can be taxing on the liver.

Anyway, the tests came back yesterday--they weren't entirely conclusive, but it looks like lymphoma. I was too devastated from the news to ask about how this would affect the anxiety med issue. My poor little boy. They need to do additional tests on the sample (with the PCR machine) to be sure that it's lymphoma, and not a mass cell tumor, or something else. Those results won't be back for another 10 business days. I'll talk to the vet again today, and ask about the anxiety meds, but I think all that's going to be on hold until we address the bigger problem.

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions on this. Kim, thanks again for your offer, but I don't think we need those at this point. The vet said on Saturday that those are more useful for dribbling problems, but that Ansel probably really can't control himself when he gets anxious, and because he pees a lot, I'd probably just have a bigger mess on my hands that way. I really do appreciate the offer, though.

:Bawling:


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## GoldenMom (Jan 2, 2005)

Oh I'm so sorry to hear that! I hope the tests come back as something else! I'll keep you in my thoughts.


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## hisenthlay (Feb 23, 2005)

Thanks, Sarah, I appreciate that. I love this guy so much, and I know he's already incredibly old for a Berner, and I can't expect him to live forever, but this is so hard.

The vet said that the path lab said that the sample was very cellular, and that it had 95% round cells, many of which were immature, but they couldn't say for sure what it was. She said she had never heard the path lab not be able to make a fairly conclusive diagnosis with their first tests before--she's never seen them need to use the PCR before. But she thinks lymphoma is the most likely outcome.

She said that lymphoma can be very responsive to chemo--that there's about an 80% remission rate, with a survival after remission of 9-18 months on average. She said that chemo for dogs is really focused on quality of life, and is not the harsh process that they do for people at all, and that if it were her dog, she would probably do it. So I guess that's where we are.

Now I'm crying at work again, so I'd better stop thinking about this.


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## GoldenMom (Jan 2, 2005)

Yes Lymphoma is typically quite responsive. It's probably one of the few cancers that I would consider using chemo on my own dogs.

Berners are also very prone to a cancer called malignant histiocytosis. That would also be a round cell tumor, maybe that's what you're dealing with? It's very rare in other breeds so I would guess the path lab wouldn't see it very often. I truly hope that if it has to one or the other that it's lymphoma.


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## longshadowfarms (Nov 27, 2002)

Awwww! I'm so sorry to hear that! I'll keep you and him in my prayers that they can figure out what it is and help both of you enjoy the time you have with him.


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## hisenthlay (Feb 23, 2005)

Thanks very much, longshadow. He still SEEMS happy and healthy and active--I hope he stays that way. After I got the diagnosis yesterday, I left work early, and we took all of our dogs to the park to run and play with other dogs. They had a great time, and it was a rare treat in the middle of a weekday. He ate all of his dinner yesterday, and breakfast this morning--he really seems fine.

Sarah--good point about the histiocytosis--I had read about that a few years back, but forgot about it. I'll bring that up when she calls me back later today, just to watch out for. I hope it's not that, though.


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## JiminMorris (Oct 3, 2003)

So sorry to here about your old friend. Last month we lost our 17 1/2 year old poodle to cancer. She, too, had urinary incontinence. We tried using a Xanax on occaision to reduce accidents. We found her symptoms increased with alot of activity. The nerves controlling bladder function stem from the mid to lower spine. This is one of the first areas to succumb to degenerative disc disease or other bone weaknesses that can put pressure on those nerves making accidents truly accidents. The bigger the dog, the greater chance this happens. The anxiety meds worked for us sometimes because she would feel she disappointed us when she had an accident. She was such a treasured friend she slept between hubby and I so accidents rarely went unnoticed for long. She would go outside to urinate then not 5 minutes later produce a lake in the house. It was like she couldn't complete urinating or feel bladder fullness or that it had emptied. Diapers are really helpful but you need to use baby wipes or something to prevent burns or diaper rash. Our little girl hung on for longer than anyone could have predicted. I recommend having anti anxiety meds for her to help her deal with pain. It's really hard to know when to intervene but it's good to be ready just in case. You'll be in our thoughts.


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## trappmountain (Jun 22, 2005)

So sorry to hear about your dear dog. We lost ours to muscular cancer last year right after the holidays. She was a golden and we had had her for 12 wonderful years. The memories are still fresh in our minds and bring a smile and a tear every time we think of her. 

Here's to hoping this is an easier type of cancer and with quick recovery! Good luck to you both!


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## hisenthlay (Feb 23, 2005)

Thank you guys very much. We're still waiting for those more detailed tests to come back--probably won't hear anything until next week. Until then, I'm just trying to be strong and keep things in perspective. I've been blessed to have him healthy and happy for so long, and I know he's had a great life, and that he has a good chance of sticking around for awhile longer yet. After he passes (hopefully long from now), and we mourn him, we will have an opportunity to rescue another dog and share our love with them--there are so many that need it. I'm sorry to hear about your losses, as well. A smile and a tear--that sounds about right. It's never easy, but they give/gave us so much to be thankful for.


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## redroving (Sep 28, 2005)

Just another observation. When our old dog turned 14 she started to get incontinent and the vet put her on prednisone, but we were able to get her off it by putting her on lower protein diet. We found Cycle Senior had the lowest protein and she was able to get off the prednisone and be incontinent free for a couple more years. We also cut out any leftovers or tidbits especially any fat which would make her piddle.
Older animals (and people too) kidneys can't handle the protein and produce more urine.


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## GoldenMom (Jan 2, 2005)

Drake's update got me wondering about Ansel. Did you ever get a diagnosis?


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