# I'm troubled....



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I'm reading the forums, and I read many of them here, a lot. I am noticing such things that have been talked about here in years past coming to happen - here on HT.

There are so many starting to post how bad anyone that has substantial amount of anything (i.e. RICH) are being demonized. Anyone rich is bad as they have money, power, things. People are starting to show that they think the little guy that did not take the risks, do the hours of schooling, are pay the price to have the various "Riches"; but it's unfair for some to have more.

I admit - I've been from having .18 and 1/8 tank of gas in the car, everything owned in a small pulled U-haul trailer to about 7 years later just at the edge of being a millionaire with 4 businesses, 4 houses, renting prop jets and owned the cadillacs, etc. 

I know the nights a "rich" person puts in to make those funds; I know about hiring more people as the businesses get larger and need more people to keep it going; I know about adding a business to make the funding available for what was being manufactured; I've done the installation and the completion of a sale by picking up the check and to the bank.

Done the service phone calls in the middle of the night; and more things like that....
Knowing at the end - that the 20 people out in the warehouse - my hubby and I were responsible for their house payments, their car payments, getting group insurance, and all those business things. There were times when they got the paychecks, and we floated a bit.

And that was free enterprise and capitalizm. 

Now I'm seeing people posting here that would say we didn't deserve what we earned, that the people that did not take the risk deserved what we had etc. 

Now, multiply this by so many - 

For right now the "riches" are the $$$$ and what it can provide for those that think they should have more from other's work - 
but - how soon will it be other visible things such as food and a home?

I walked away from that almost millionaire life as the price was too high; to temporary welfares until I could get going again - all of 2 years. But, I never have figured someone OWED me what I did not earn.

The grasshoppers are whining about being OWED what the others have worked to have; and that ants better stay aware.

Read the site, the general type of forums - you'll see it for yourself. And someone reading this, probably is one of those - also.


Sorry for my rant, but I'll use my own rules and say - this is for S&EP due to the fact the grasshoppers are starting to riot and have fits; and the entitled are losing some of what they think they are OWED, and having fits about it.

Ants, watch out.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

You're seeing it as well, eh?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There will come a time when the difference between the haves and the have nots will come down to a handful of beans. And if you've got two and they've got none then they're going to demand (violently) that you give up one of yours.

I think part of it is that the whole American dream is coming apart at the seams. Jobs are disappearing. The economy is tanking. Even those who don't get it can sense this and they're getting very petulant about where their piece of the pie may be. They're angry. They feel like they've been cheated. They're going to strike out.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

I've been noticing that a lot lately too Angie. I got into a discussion on Facebook with a friend of a friends and point blank asked why they thought rich people didn't deserve the fruits of their own labors. They came back with - well I don't mind if they worked for it but its different if they inherited the money. My response was - don't you want to be able to leave something for your children too? Yes, they did but "those people" just have so much money.... 

Being wealthy isn't a sin - Abaraham, Job etc were all wealthy and they kept a lot of people employed in the process. Coveting what isn't yours is a sin.


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

You're right. People are starting to fall into the class warfare trap that the usual suspects of media/liberals/entitlement mentality folks are whipping into a frenzy. 

I guess what Thatcher said about 'other people's money' is coming to pass....

We own a small business, and guess what folks? WE AIN'T RICH. I wish we were. Yup, I sure do. Why? Because we were the entrepreneurs, we took the risk, we came up with the money to start our business, we worked like dogs day and night, 7 days a week, for years. In other words, we *worked* for what we have, and we have earned every penny and every asset. I'd love to have money to go on a vacation somewhere, like I read about other people here on the forums doing. And believe me, we pay taxes--all manner of taxes---that someone working a 9 to 5 job just simply does not have to pay, period. But we also understand that in order to stay in business, we have to pay our taxes. Fine, no problem. 

But what is a problem to me is when people who freely choose--who choose by their own volition-- to not work, or to expect others to pick up the tab for their expenses (an example being the union workers in Wisconsin who pay either nothing or just a trifle toward their own healthcare) expect ME to cough up even MORE money, simply because they think we're rich because we own a business. 

No, we're not rich. We're just reponsible.

If people are foolish enough to fall into the class warfare trap being woven by the libs/media, let them be foolish. In the end they will have no one to blame their misery on when eventually the tide of entitlement turns against them.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

It is always someone else's fault with some people. They want to blame everyone but themselves for not having what others have. 
My response is that I spent 7 years in college while they were busy playing and not thinking of their future.
I have preps and they don't because they spent their money on a plasma tv when I spent mine on long term food storage items and ammo.
Life is full of choices and consequences.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Angie, as long as your happy with where you are, you did the right thing. I was an employer with many depending on my workings for their homes and families. 20 hour days at time. Even after marriage, I'd be at work for long hours, running the business...my new bride at home alone.
Then our first son came home. A bit more time away from business, but not a whole lot. During the second adoption process, I realized how much I had been missing with my wife and boy and decided then and there that I'd miss no more, especially with another child coming to us. Sold my businesses (after many more long hours making sure my employees had either a position with the buyers, or a position equal to their current position with another company, and all on good terms).
They are all still good friends, happy for the fact that I looked out for them for several years.
All this ButterScotch about the "rich"...my employees knew what I sacrificed for them, at my financial risk, and my loyalty to them, that they'd be the first to help me out, as I did for almost all of them at one point or another.
These that complain about the "rich" either had daddy's money fall into their laps, or never worked a hard day's labor, IMO.
I am cheering the ants on.
Matt
P.S. and to be S&EP, hard work and preparation often leads to loyal friends...


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

To me there is two kinds of rich people. People like you who works hard and probably cares about your employee's and their families. You I have no quarrles against.

Then there's the big banker, the CEO, the Administrator who doesn't give a darn about the employees and thier families welfare. They take away from your wallet to make their own wallet fatter. They say "cut, cut, cut, see how much money I saved the company, now give me a big raise with all that money I saved". This is what we're seeing a whole lot of across America, this is what has got us in trouble in our national debt. Too many rich executive running around smiling while us little peasants are barely staying afloat. 

I won't bit the hand that feeds me, but I'll bit the hand that strikes me!


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

Shanzone, I have a couple of close family members who are physicians... they put themselves through college and medical school. One worked in the warehouse of a KMart to pay for much of his education, and took a student loan for the rest, which he has paid off. The other flipped hamburgers at a 24 hour Jack in the Box to earn money and did the studen loan thing too. Paid their own way.

Now, they're rich. One is a neurologist, the other an oncologist. And I don't begrudge them one penny of their wealth. Like you said, they spent years working toward a degree and a career. 

No one who has taken care of themselves in this way should ever have to explain or justify their income to anyone.


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## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

It's called "Wealth Redistribution",correct? 

I spoke to an everyday, normal ...for this area...nearing retirement age, woman this past August about politics and she brought up that the people who worked at jobs who got paid a lot of money ( she named Detroit automakers) didn't work any harder than she did as a custodian and that she felt they needed to contribute some of their money to those who never had it to begin with...regardless of how hard anyone worked to EARN their agreed upon wage.

BLEW MY MIND... 

The new "golden rule" seems to be: "Do unto those who have more gold...because you deserve some too!" 

-scrt crk


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## AR Cattails (Dec 22, 2005)

What a great post, Angie!

I can never understand the mindset of people who believe that the rich should give their money to the poor. And I am poor. But I would never think I was owed someone else's money. It's just not right. 

I like to dream sometimes of what it would be like to be rich. Or, more precisely, what it would be like to have enough money to cover my needs and wants. I would love to know what it feels like to be able to go shopping and buy everything I needed without the worry of what it cost. Instead, I've always had to decide what is the most urgent item I can afford to buy. And that is mainly for food and house supplies. I'm wearing old clothes I've had for years. I would love a new blouse and jeans and undies that are not torn up. But that will have to wait. Food is my #1 priority now. And I would never expect someone that was rich to support me. It's their money to do with as they want.


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

It has seemed to me that the tension and rage has been building all over here lately. I don't begrudge anyone for what they have, this is a free country and anyone can make themselves a millionaire. Some people say that they spout off on the internet about things because it is less confrontational than real life. Well, if you think it...how long before you act on it?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

I am living a low income level when compared to National average, state and local averages. 

why. Well I could whin and blame but that would not improve my bank account. The fact is I had money and life happened.

an event happened (medical) my responce to that was not quick enough (my responceablity for not thinking it was as big of a deal as it is)

I made a bad business deal. (my responceablity)

Money ran out.
so, Instead of having money to make life easier I have use what eles I have

I have NOT given up. Just have to learn new things and put that to use to improve where I am at. I can not lie and say that for a time I did live in the pity me mentality --
I had lost hope that I could get back on my feet --it seems too deep of a hole to crawl out of to start reaching for the lowest rung of a latter I had once had a nice view from.

I think in a society where MVP awards are handed out just for thinking of playing a sport no matter if you have any talent. Where teacher are "banned" from failing students. Where people fear being able to hold a job with out "tennor mandating continued employment", on and on. I believe that more and more every day people have lost self confidents to be independant. What if years of receiving awards and bonases for breathing has raised up a generation of citzens who see a person in the mirror who is incompendent, and a failure because in their soles they know they did not earn what they got on team sports, in school or in the work place. Everything is a PC feel good --everyone is equal (thru rose color glasse). 

We are all different and though respect is due to everyone with the charactor not be be a killer, thief , rapist ............it does not mean that equality in all things. We are different with different life skills, talents dreams and goals. 

We hear so much about the evil of GREED what about the evil of jelouscy and Bitterness.

Have we become a society that secretly lives in fear that "we can't do."


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

I'm sorry you are troubled, but having been around the block and through the wringer a few times, I have personally seen that there are a _lot_ of people who did not get rich by hard work, and more than I would care to count who compromised their morals in pursuit of the dollar. 

Example: I was diligently working my way up the ranks in one Alabama company with 60 hour work weeks a number of years back, when a favorite of the boss's son was placed over me and within a few months I found myself fired, along with a secretary who was as sweet as anyone I've ever seen in the business world. When she was sacked, she was crushed. I landed on my feet and kept on going. I later found that the "friend" was clipping and didn't want anyone around with ethics, so he could continue to clip. Yeah, financially he was worth more than me, and a lot more than the secretary. Yeah, he wielded power. And yeah, the boss's son did well.

Lessee now, then there was ANOTHER fellow who worked for the same company who ended up being of interest to the Feds and ended up hiding out until _somehow_ the Feds were no longer interested in him. Then there are the fellows who worked at AIG. Then there is the offspring of a friend who went to a prestigious school and made money hand over foot selling mortgages that were guaranteed to fail. Then there is the very famous and lauded rich actor who a LOT of people know was a rapist early in his career, but whose sins were covered up in the quest for money. Then there is Ted Turner, who I generally admire the heck out of, but who stiffed the very friend who got him started and gave him the boost he needed to succeed.

Yes, there ARE people who come by money through hard work, great smarts, and solid ethics. Wozniak, both Walt and Roy Disney, our last governor, the one senator from Alabama who voted AGAINST T.A.R.P., and many number of others fit that bill. THOSE people are the ones I admire and would not begrudge a dime. As for the others, it isn't "their" money, any more than the car stolen by a carjacker is "his."

I am embarrassed that the Congress of this country allowed the people at AIG, and the Wall Street banks to not only go free, but continue to make unconscionable earnings. I am embarrassed the the rich and powerful in this country are more interested in not rocking the boat than pulling these bad apples down.

Am I "demonizing?" No. I am not. The people on Wall Street "demonized" themselves. The CEOs earning perks that go far beyond any management skill they might have demonized themselves by earning their sheckels pulling strings behind scenes to reward congesscritters and regulators with cushy jobs for life after "public service" in exchange for favorable votes.

I have the greatest respect for those who have been able to amass money AND keep even a basic morality AND do all this on their own. The problem for me is that too few fall into this category. 

I'm sorry that some folks paint with a broad brush and you get a feeling of being demonized. I'm also sorry that honest folks who have to live in the poverty areas of cities get demonized because of their neighbors.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

as long as the rich folks didn't harm other folks to get their money, I've no beef with those who have it

if they've lied, cheated, stolen, murdered or just abused other folks and their employees then no, they should not be able to enjoy that wealth


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## Sweetsong (Dec 4, 2010)

Not to go Biblical on anyone, but the Book of Proverbs is FULL of warnings to a certain type of "rich" about cheating the poor and how God hates all sorts of injustices. Someone is keeping tabs...


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

My family is not rich either, but we live a comfortable life. But this is not something that happened over night. Both DH and I worked our tushes off to get where we are. When first starting out we pawned just about everything we owned, just to stay afloat. DH has put in 27 yrs in the military. Stop and think about how many wars or military situations we have been through. All the separations we have had. All the moves we've had to make. For a brief period DH got out of the AF. We opened our own business. DH worked another job and I practically lived at our computer store. When we adopted our DS I took him to work with me. There's been many times where we didn't know where our next meal was coming from, or where we had to rob Peter to pay Paul. We invested our own money, well, the banks, but it was our signature on those papers and it was us who had to pay the bills, and many times after the bills for the business were paid, we didn't have money for food or to pay our home bills. We ate a lot of beans and taters.  In response to Sweetsong's post, the Bible also says that a workman is worthy of his hire. It's just wrong to hand over the money that people have sacrificed for many years and give that money to someone who wouldn't get a job to save their lives. We live in an age where personal accountability no longer exists. Don't want to work? Don't worry, we'll just take more money from those who do and give it to you." I spent a time living in my car because I didn't have any money to afford to pay rent. Not that we're comfortable the government wants to take what we have and give it to others. Why would anyone fight to better themselves if they're just going to be handed the money?


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## iLori (Feb 1, 2009)

One of my previous employers wrote a reference letter for me and I quote "if the rest of America had a work ethic like Lori we would be living in a very different society". 

One example I have always used to teach my children is when we open a car door in a parking lot to ALWAYS make sure (not try) that the door doesn't ever hit the car next to us. One time my son said "oh, it doesn't matter, look at it, they'd never even notice if there was a mark". He was about 8, and it gave me the opportunity to explain that he can't possibly know how hard it was for a person to get that car. Whether the car is top of the line or the oldest boat on the road, that person may have worked very hard, or made a lot of sacrifices or it took everything they had to get that car. Lesson learned. 
I've always had nothing but respect for others regardless of their wealth. I know some wealthy people who are wonderful, kind and generous... and some who'd step over you if you were dying. But I've never once begrudged anyone for anything they have.

I've never had enough to be comfortable and able to buy all the food we need. I tried going to college a few years back but my children were too young at the time and I'm a single parent. I'm back now and look forward to completing it. 

One thing I find disheartening is that I am looked upon as lazy or "not a risk taker" or not willing to work hard. I've been providing for my children (without welfare) alone for 16 years. No, I didn't take risks, the cost could have been too high. The roof has been leaking for 6 years, my car needs a new engine and we are 4 of the 8 people in America who don't have enough food. But I don't have a plasma TV, I don't go to movies or restaurants, I don't buy new clothes and I don't think rich people owe me anything but a fair wage I can survive on. And I don't think $15/hr is a fair wage for 15 years of experience and the kind of excellence that leads to the kind of glowing reference letters I have. But, cheaper labor is better for business these days than quality labor. I'm not ashamed to be a "worker". I'm as honest as the day is long and I am tired of being looked at like a "grasshopper", a "have not", someone who's "not willing to work" just because I don't have "things" to show for my labor, "not responsible" because I don't have a nicer home or nicer car, or that I am filled with self pity, or that I must think "rich" people owe me something.

...there's my rant.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

Some people think I'm a communist, but nothing could be further from the truth. I am a radical though, and I'm proud of it.

I believe in hard work. It's how I got where I am today, and I'm in no danger of being poor and I take great pride in the fact that my children will never know the kinds of hardship and the sheer deprivation that I suffered as a child. I won't be making my children wealthy by means of inheritance, and I wouldn't even if I could.

What makes me a radical though, is my belief that people are more important than things, and that a system that allows and encourages wealth and the means of producing wealth to pool in the hands of only a relative few is morally wrong and inherently disordered.

People have rights and responsibilities, but property and wealth do not. Increasingly what we see in our country is the demand that property and wealth be respected as if they sentient beings. Wealth is equated with virtue, and great wealth is treated as great virtue. Wealth and property are increasingly being treated as ends in themselves, and I very emphatically believe this to be wrong.

Wealth and property are most properly tools which humans use to improve their lot in life. They are instead being used only as tools to create more wealth and property and real humans are only useful in so far as they facilitate this process. I refuse to worship at that altar.

If I were a communist, I would be an advocate of confiscating the property of others. I'm doing no such thing. The only wealth I redistribute is my own. Communists want everyone to own everything. What I'm after is for everyone, or at least most everyone, to own their own livelihood. Once I've acheived this, if some people are rich, more power to them.

Having gotten to a point where I have 'enough' - that is, I have no debt to speak of, savings, the tools of my trade, a house, a garden, and a library, I've stopped trying to grow my fortune. I'm not buying more houses or cars or other luxury indulgences. Instead, I'm investing in my community by helping start small - usually very small business get up and going.

My paraphrased motto is "Give a man a job, and he works until his employer decides to downsize. Give a man a business and he works until he can't work anymore."

To back this up, and I can only do this because I'm not poor, I only do business with small, personally owned businesses unless it can't be avoided.


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## navygirl (Oct 23, 2005)

I really don't know for sure how it happened. Somehow the entitlement mind set has become the norm for SO MANY people in this country. At work I was speaking with a part time associate who is a college student. He told me that he believes that welfare is necessary "to help the young people and disabled people that don't have the same opportunities" that I (did at his age). Somehow he cannot understand that forcing me to give up my hard earned dollar to be given to someone not of my choosing is wrong. I agree that charity is necessary, but I deserve the right to choose the recipient. 
On a side note, he believes that it's the government's responsibility to "keep us safe". Again, he cannot understand the concept... if the police cannot reach you in time to prevent a crime, they cannot protect you. Which is most of the time. He staunchly said that it is their responsibility (and none of us should have guns... any kind... ever..except the police). I'm mind-boggled. I asked him what about personal responsibility. He doesn't seem to understand the concept. He's extremely bright but has this gaping blind spot. I am sincerely blown away.


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

I agree with you entirely Angie EXCEPT

Over here a couple of years ago, we had a couple of banks on the verge of going bust. The UK govt bailed them out with UK taxpayers money. The banks then gave all their top bods huge bonuses - using the taxpayers money. 

Are those bonus recipients "worthy" of those bonuses - I don't believe so. They didn't work any harder for them - in fact soem of the recipients were the people that made the duff decisions that nearly took the banks into bankruptcy in the first place!

I have no problem with inherited wealth. I have no problem with earned wealth. But I do have a problem with certain breeds of leech at the top of the system.

Just tuppence worth

hoggie


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

Also forgot to say that sometime people overlook one important point. That with wealth comes a degree of responsibility.

My parents were builders when I was a kid. For our area and time we were pretty well off. My dad employed about 30 men. He had an education policy in place for those lads that came to him from school without enough education to earn a trade. He paid for them to do day release to college for their apprenticeships when there was no system at all here on the island. And when he was going bankrupt and we were losing our house - he kept every man on the books until they had another job to go to.


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## Just Cliff (Nov 27, 2008)

I am starting to catch hell at work about having a bit of money and having everything paid off. I don't brag about it, it is known through conversations in the past. I have been trying to keep my mouth shut about anything for some time now.
My wife and I have government jobs in a non union state meaning, we don't make a good deal of money. We saved, drove crap cars, didn't vacation, etc for many years while others played and wasted money on new toys. 
Money I did spend went to durable goods and yeah I peed some away but, I earned it so ....
Just a couple weeks ago I bought the first new vehicle I have ever had, although it was last years model. Now aparently I am "showing off" I bought it partly because my wife and I plan to go on an aniversary trip this year (25) The money we would have spent going the normal "consumer" way will pay for half of my new toy. 
One of the irking points to them is my education. i have a GED, all of them have 4 and 6 year degrees and feel that they should have it better because of the degree. We have been seeing that for a while. guess it will get worse.

Thats my rant this morning.. May not make much sence, I just woke up.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I don't know if what I am about to say goes along with S & E.....
Angie, you are right.....

My take on this is (tinfoil engaged) that we have been 'told the lie' of 'class warfare' long enough......that we are now, believing it.
This lie has been on the news, in the paper, injected into movies and tv sitcoms. It has been the topic of numerous weekly 'special reports'. It is beat into the children's heads at schools for 12 years of primary, and then injected into their hearts for 4-6 years of college. 

For survival, we have to stop listening to this lie.
For emergency prep, we need to be able to quickly access if a person is consumed by this lie and if they can be 'snapped out of it' or if they are an immenant threat.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

I just hope these disgruntaled people do not riot or strike out..........


This is just what the powers that be want so they can declare Martial Law and really restrict us and take liberties away in the name of protection...


Then we will be up the creek for certain.....


There is a ferver brewin and all it needs is a spark to light it off... I just need a little more time before it happens to get situated in Kansas and be ready......I hope it holds out for another year or so before really taking the plunge......

I tell all around me that it is really not worth doing anything foolish in hopes of it spreading and keeping the wolfs at bay for as long as possible.

Do not agitate the grasshoppers that is the last thing we need right now.....the more they think it will all be fine the better in my book.


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## CJ (May 10, 2002)

My sister and I have this conversation frequently. We grew up poor, I remember getting goverment cheese, powdered milk and eggs, etc. My dad hunted and fished for most of our meat. Neither of us had a penny between us until we were about 40 either, when things finally started to turn around.

Lots and lots and LOTS of hard work over the years finally began to pay off, and we are both now comfortable. Heck when this board first started we we still poor! Now we are expected to share the wealth? So we can starve in our old age?

I don't get the entitlement mentality either. We busted our butts our entire lives to finally have some money and be debt free. We will continue to bust our butts in the hopes of saving enough to see us through our old age. But, if we are expected to distribute that wealth, we'll end up starving.

I did so much physcial labor yesterday that I passed out at 7pm. A "friend" stopped by while I was out working and instead of saying anything nice about all I'd acccomplished, she made a snide remark about how it must be nice to have an ATV to do all the "heavy lifting"... while _she_ had to do it all on her own steam power. Seriously? I didn't see the ATV weilding the rock bar to pry rocks out of the ground... or lifting them into the basket... or digging the holes I dug with a shim in my boot so I could continue digging with a seriously inflamed case of plantar fasciitis.

I have gone hungry. I have slept in my car. I have worked my body into old age years ahead of itself. I for one am SO tired of the entitlement class of people.

I probably shouldn't post on threads like this before finishing my morning cup of coffee.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2011)

> Somehow the entitlement mind set has become the norm for SO MANY people in this country.


So true, and when the country runs out of money and the teat is dried up, scavengers will start looking at your homes, your farms and seeing you have food and shelter, will think nothing of robbing you blind, because they deserve and are entitled to it too.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Wind in Her Hair said:


> its NOT just the "rich" who have done this - its the "poor", too.
> 
> In today's society, how many girls discover that they:
> 
> ...


Bravo, Bravo!!


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

Rich people/poor people.....I don't begrudge rich folks what they have. It doesn't matter if they worked for it or their families before them worked for it or inherited it.

What sticks in my craw are those who will not take care of themselves and their families, but instead feel owed and want the gov to care for them. I say will not, not can not. I worked(40 years total this year) for what I have, I got help along the way from my parents not the gov. All student loans were repaid and I collected unemployment for a grand total one time of less than a month in those 40 years.

I do NOT owe people who were lazy or foolish with their money my money or goods. Wealthy people do not owe me their money or goods either. I have known envy; but I have also known pride. Pride in my work and the products of my work. I think this kind of pride is sorely lacking in many of our citizens sucking on the gov teat.....which may be just what "they" want.

Ask(depending on circumstance) and I may share..try to take what you feel you are entitaled too and I will show you how justified I feel in stopping you.:viking:


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## Trixters_muse (Jan 29, 2008)

I am far from rich in the monetary sense, but we work hard for everything we have. I do not begrudge anyone anything they have worked for, I just despise slackers and excuse givers. 

My house is a 1929 bungalo, we ride the bus or bicycle, no fancy electronics, no smart phones or designer labels. I do have all of my debt paid but the house, a little bit of savings, plenty of food and other necessities, a garden and a backyard full of chickens and quail, a small pond of fish and two great kids who work as hard as I do to get and keep what we have. I think I am pretty rich  

I do get flack from some of my friends about living a country mouse lifestyle in a city mouse world and then there are some friends who tell me I am "lucky" to have fresh citrus and fresh veggies, I'm "lucky" to have most of my debt paid off. Luck has nothing to do with it. They have smart phones and 65 inch TV's, I have a simple life and fresh eggs every morning. Slight thread drift, I did get "lucky" a couple of weeks ago and scored a free 50 inch TV on Craigs List! It's a 7 years old huge monster and it was my intentions to resale it to buy prep items but my son is totally spoiled to it so I fiugred what the heck, I guess he got "lucky".


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I don't begrudge anyone the money they make, CEO's, Bankers,Union workers. When you start messing with my Freedom or Theirs, I get going.
Money is not Freedom,but everyone should have the right to make it.
Want to take my Freedom-I will meet you on the Battlefield.


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

La Grande Peur.... 1793.

Don't think it can't happen here.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

There are those amongst us who look at what other people have with a green eye. They take it upon themselves to decide whether or not you 'deserve' what you own.

I don't know what makes those people tick because their mentality is foreign to me. I never look at what anyone else has or how they got it, because it is none of my business. You inherited your house? Good for you...it doesn't effect my life in any way. There isn't 'less' available to me because you have more, so long as I'm not paying for it.

I think the reason we are hearing so much about this now is because the public sector is finally feeling the sting that so many of us in the private sector have been living with for years. If our government would have decided to raise taxes even higher on the rest of us to continue to fund public sector wages and benefits, everything would be just dandy for these people.


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## NJ Rich (Dec 14, 2005)

I have health care; a retirement and an annuity. I don't apologize for any of it! You know what? I paid for all of it. I am disabled /retired and I am still paying for my health care.

I have heard, "Oh, you union guys have free health care for life". Where did that mis-conception come from? Some police and fire fighters may get that. Certainly the politicians do! Are some unions out of control? Probabaly, but who agreed to it? The states; counties; towns; companies; contractors or bosses. Now people are losing their benefits and I hate to say it but some people think that is a good thing. "I don't have it, why should you"? Shame on them. 

I have what benefits I have because it was in the contract. Let me explain some of it. When we got a raise through contracts a percentage of it went into benefits. We voted to put the money into benefits. We could have put the money in our pockets. But we planned for the future and took care of our families and ourselves.

So many people have been crying, "Why don't I have this or that"? It isn't written that you are owed anything except an opportunity. If you didn't work for it you don't get it.

I had a carpenter say to me, "You union guys are nruining our country. You have all these benefits that cost the boss money". I asked him if he had any benefits. He said, "No, my boss can't afford to pay that". This guy was living in a pick up truck from some southern state he ha a suit case in the back with the tools he supplied for his boss. What kind of mentallity is that?

Most of the people I have heard complaing are mad that they don't have any retirement; annuity or medical coverage. Hey, I don't think I should pay for you. You didn't pay for me. One of the things that spawned the "I deserve mentallity" is welfare. 

I see able bodied people sitting around collecting money for not working. One man of color told me, and I quote, "You white people are crazy. I have never worked, I won't ever work and you whiite people pay me. I am probably am better off than you". He was in his thirties and was proud of the fact he was using the system and I was paying for it.

There is a writing some where on the web about, "Take down the bird feeder". Many people really need welfare but the abuses are rampant. One southern town in NJ tells people applying for welfare, "Oh, we have a job for you. Report to the towns garage tomorrow morning at 7 am". No one ever shows up. * Go on the web and type in. Take down the bird feeder. I found it on the Patriot Action Network. Donna Ferguson posted it.* 

Let me say this, "If the politicians could not receive health care (and they had to pay for it) any better than US citizens we would health care now".


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

NJ Rich said:


> I have heard, "Oh, you union guys have free health care for life". Where did that mis-conception come from? Some police and fire fighters may get that. Certainly the politicians do! Are some unions out of control? Probabaly, but who agreed to it? The states; counties; towns; companies; contractors or bosses. Now people are losing their benefits and I hate to say it but some people think that is a good thing. "I don't have it, why should you"? Shame on them.
> 
> ..


Rich I think the mentality is 'I don't want to/can't pay for your benefits anymore'. I do think, in a way, it is a good thing that public employees are
having their benefits cut because that signals a decision to not throw it on the taxpayer anymore.

We are in this mess because of too much government spending.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

&#8220;If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!&#8221; &#8211; Samuel Adams


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## kmam10 (Aug 5, 2007)

I've seen the trend to rich bashing lately too, and it really bothers me. We retired early, quite early, because we went the education/hard work/risk taking route and saved. Lately I have heard how we "have it made" and "are really lucky" from people who partied rather than go to college, took the easy job so it didn't interfere with their free time, and never worked to get ahead. I remember watching them when I was in my late 20s, back in college part-time and working full time, putting in extra hours for the promotions and experience, taking the risky projects with all the extra stress because the success was bigger, and wondering if I had life wrong. I didn't, but now I am "lucky".

I won't judge people based on how they got their money. Until you walk in their shoes, you have no idea how much stress and work is involved in some of those jobs. I've had people describe to me how much stress they are under on their jobs, and they really felt it was a high stress position. The day they described would have been a very easy day for me. 

If a person made $XXX for their firm, who is to say they don't deserve a percentage of that, no matter how large. BTW, I am not saying this from experience, I never got a million dollar bonus, I just can't judge based on my own experiences.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

It this doesn't pertain to survival, I don't know what does:

From Isaiah 58 (KJV) (emphasis mine)

2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God. 

3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours. 

4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. 

5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD? 

6 _Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? _

7 _Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? _

8 _Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy reward. _

9Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; 

10 _And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day: _


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2011)

NJ Rich said:


> Take down the bird feeder.


:clap:


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## Calico Katie (Sep 12, 2003)

I remember a very wealthy man who used to live in this area. Through the years I came into contact with him occasionally and I found him to be a very unpleasant man. Certainly not someone I wanted to spend any time around. What always bothered me, though, was that when most people around here would mention him, they would _always_ say something about his money. "With all his money, you'd think he would ... " etc. The man earned his money. Even if his family had given it to him, it would have been their money to give him. It just twisted me up that when I heard that garbage I almost felt like defending him when I thought he was a jerk. :grit:

I've really noticed in the past 20 years that when younger people are hired for a position, their work ethic is generally pretty poor. They expect the pay check but have little regard for policies and procedures that they agreed to abide by. Much less actually do the work! My generation has to shoulder a lot of blame for the decline in responsibility this country is sinking under. We baby boomers were supposed to be the 'golden children' and we really blew it in a big way. Doesn't matter if our hard working parents spoiled us and wanted us to have more than they did. We can't use that as an excuse because we were still taught right from wrong but dropped the ball and didn't pass it along to the next generation. 

Yeah, I think the Wall Street crooks are exactly that - crooks. The union bosses who are in bed with organized crime are exactly that - crooks. But that sense of entitlement isn't unique to one social or economic level. The guy down the street cheats on his wife and his taxes. Two blocks over a woman is shacked up with her drug dealer and collecting every welfare benefit she can to support the children she doesn't bother to send to school. They all think that what's yours is theirs.

At the end of the day, all you can lay claim to is your own self-respect and the satisfaction of knowing that you take care of your own. The rest of these people will eventually kill each other off one way or another. We prepare, we plan to survive and we know it's up to us. So we smile and shrug when people say it's not fair that rich people are rich and poor people are poor. We keep our mouths shut about what we're doing. And we keep an eye out at all times for the rich/poor/politician/druggy/spineless do-nothing who would take it away from us if they could.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

My father has been working since he was 9 years old; he grew up very poor and had to help out with his Uncle's business to help support his family. He barely graduated high school, although he is a very smart man, and college wasn't even considered as an option. 

Excepting the 3 years he served in Vietnam, my father has worked a full time job for 61 of the 70 years he has been on this Earth. He has worked a position that involves constant traveling and being on call 24/7 since before I was born. Even when we are on vacation, if his business cell phone rings - he answers it. In the days before cell phones he used to call into his business phone line answering machine 5 and 6 times a day during our family vacation to make sure he had no messages from clients. If there were messages, he returned them immediately.

Now my Dad makes a good living. He's not a millionaire but he is in the top tax bracket and has been for a few decades. I have watched this man work very hard my entire life...he truly embodies the American dream....going from a poor family in the slums of Boston to a nice house in a nice neighborhood.

Dad gives to a few select charities and he does all he can to give people a hand UP. When my Mother's brother fell on hard times thru no fault of his own a few years back, Dad very quietly sent him some money to get him through. He has helped people he knew really needed money for something specific more times than I can count. But if a slacker wants something, he has no problem telling them to get off their lazy duff and earn it.

I will never understand why people think it is just for my Dad to hand over his hard-earned money to someone on the gov't dole who chooses to sit on their couch all day, watch tv and pop out babies. We are no longer giving struggling Americans a hand up.... we are supporting the lazy folks with no work ethic with hand outs.

If you had an adult child living in your basement, no job, not going to school, eating your food, running up your utility bills, and not doing any chores around the house, how long would you keep supporting his freeloading a** before you kicked him out to make his own way in the world?


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> I'm reading the forums, and I read many of them here, a lot. I am noticing such things that have been talked about here in years past coming to happen - here on HT.
> 
> There are so many starting to post how bad anyone that has substantial amount of anything (i.e. RICH) are being demonized. Anyone rich is bad as they have money, power, things. People are starting to show that they think the little guy that did not take the risks, do the hours of schooling, are pay the price to have the various "Riches"; but it's unfair for some to have more.
> 
> ...


Just a second here . 
sorry to bring up old posts but as i recall your "rich" X ended up getting in big trouble with the law , or being connected to shall we say unsavory business contacts .
Those type actions are what the people are complaining about and the fact that the rich in many cases are above the law . It doesnt help that while accounting for most of the income in the country they barely pay half the taxes . we hear all the talk about returning to the constitution , well that is right up until it comes to taxing businesses which is the only tax the constitution allowed until 1913 when the rich business owner bought the government and had them switch the tax burden to the working stiffs . 
Frankly I dont mind paying taxes but I want everyone to pay their share ,Im sick of being a ant feeding the queens council (rich)


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

My Cousin Tom was an only child. His Dad was a successful business man who worked hard, paid alot of taxes, and saved what he had left to leave to his son and heir. Tragically, Tom's parents died, one after the other from cancer...both within a three year period. Tom even quit his job when his Dad had cancer to help take care of him since the mom was gone and no other siblings. He brought him to his Chemo treatments, fed him, changed him, and wept like a baby when the old man died.

Tom is now pretty much alone in the world, no wife, no kids, no siblings, no parents to fall back on...but he did inherit money...enough so that Tom doesn't have to worry too much about it. His parents looked out for Tom the way Tom looked out for them. There are those who would say that Tom should not have that money because he didn't work for it.....some would say that a parent shouldn't have the right to leave their property to their children.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

bluemoonluck said:


> If you had an adult child living in your basement, no job, not going to school, eating your food, running up your utility bills, and not doing any chores around the house, how long would you keep supporting his freeloading a** before you kicked him out to make his own way in the world?


In my family, I was the oldest of three children. My mom died when I was 14, and after she died, my dad lost interest in the family. Providing the necessities of life fell to me - things like food, clothing, etc. It also fell to me to keep my brother and sister on the straight and narrow, and safe from 'others'. I had a strict rule for them that I enforced more severely than any other on this matter: When it comes to family versus outsiders, you defend and protect your family first, no questions asked. If afterwards it turns out you had to be defended from the consequences of your own stupidity, we'll settle that between ourselves later, and the consequeces for putting your family in danger for your being stupid will always be severe.

That was a long time ago, but it was a sound priniciple. My children will never have to go without food or shelter as long as I'm able to provide it, whether it's their fault or not. If it their fault however, they will definitely answer to me for it - and they might actually find life on the streets hungry more comfortable. Still, that'll be their choice to make.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Don - you are right, he did in the end. But, building up the business and working it was all on the up and up. AFter we got large enough to be noticed, the mob tried to get into it; one distributor tried suing and kidnapping me and the girls - so a 24 hour a day armed body guard for all of us for 2 weeks per the advice of the police due to the strange guy with the funny suitcase coming to the door looking for him one day. Car across pointed out for a get away.

The distributors getting more crooked manufactere to lie so they got the patent suite for them.

Yep, he was a stinker - he was all only business, and nothing for family.

That's the price I paid to have the $$; and what he paid. In the end, he kept trying to be rich, playing to the edge of all the rules.

But in the time we had the money, we helped his family, raised a boy from 14 to 16 and bought him a car, raised his GPA from -3 grades to +2 grades through after school special schooling. etc.

We did the work, we paid the taxes - and for all his pushing the limits - he never took welfare; he took the chances others would not; 

But for his not following the rules, there are hundred's just like him without the going illegal (mail fraud folks) and still having to pay the tax man more than enough for the roads and such - enough for those that make the choice not to take the chances, not to live in the car for years so the money can be saved - etc.

You know enough of me, cause we have talked via PM and you remember his suicide - he was not the best; but he did not take welfare at the cost of your taxes. (I still think you're a great Dad and your girls fortunate to have you)

Heck, if we'd won the patent suit I really could be one of those rich that have too much that the takers want their share of.

So the price of riches is everything from working all the time; and no family life; and having folks always out to take what you've earned. Taxes, lying lawyer patent suits, loosiers sending thugs to kidnap your family - 
It is easier, by far, to sit back and complain and be safe and not take chances and earn money.

But this site is for Homesteaders - or those that think in that manner. In the past the 'leeches' and the "takers" would have been ashamed to fuss about not getting their share. They'd be told to get up off their lazy seats and get busy. Now, look here - there are many that think it's bad that they cannot get the government to take more from the workers so they don't have to bear the same effect of the economy on their precious self.

That was the main point, Homesteaders usually try to be self-suficient and maybe even a little to help others that are working to help themselves. 
So, I don't need more people's hands in my pockets. I totally believe there is enough being taken and more people need to wake up and see they will starve if they don't get busy and stop waiting for a white knight to save them. And Robin Hood is as illegal as the Sheriff was.

So, don't try to make this where my ex did bad therefore I shouldn't know what leeches look like - I see them on this site in various forums. We did work - and at the top it's not as easy as it looks. I chose to walk away from it - and I've had what I've worked for taken from em twice since then - but I still work and believe in MYSELF, not hand outs.
And for those that didn't go to college - big deal. You don't need it. Make a business for yourself, or lower your expectations and make a nice life on less money - and do more, learn more.

I truly am happy to help some that the welfare goes for, but would like to kick about 50% more off the dole - 

We as a nation are in a changing times. Get your stuff ready and read this boards and learn to take care of yourself, no matter what happens. 

Satisfied Don? What are you doing to be an ANT and not a grasshopper?


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

not all who are low income take welfare either....but choose to live frugally and withen means. No tv, no fancy cars, no fancy vacations, no fancy homes. Bashing goes on both ways. It also doesn't mean they are lazy workers. Dh could go on the dole with his dissabilty but choses to work a very difficult job, it takes it's tole on him and isn't high pay but its a place he is able to work at. He does side jobs too, none of them are 'easy'. And yes, he has a college degree. Just becasue you are low income doesn't mean you are lazy and worthless. If worse came to worse, we could survive on just my pay, barely, and if I took a second job. There as been times one of us have been out of work and we could not buy food, but we never went on the governtment dole.

Just so some of you know.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

NickieL said:


> not all who are low income take welfare either....but choose to live frugally and withen means. No tv, no fancy cars, no fancy vacations, no fancy homes. Bashing goes on both ways.
> 
> Just so some of you know.


NIckie - I know, but those are not the ones posting about wanting more from the 'rich'; they are the ones that made a conscious decision to live more fugually and without the hassels of being and getting "rich".

But, make no mistake - if you have a home, food, warmth and such at some time, someone is going to say that you are "rich" and they are entitled to some of it. Just be ready to be an ant, and don't call too much attention to what you have, or there will be someone that wants it.
I'm seeing it here. (HT site in general).

In earlier times, you'd just be normal small town type person.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

PyroDon said:


> Just a second here .
> sorry to bring up old posts but as i recall your "rich" X ended up getting in big trouble with the law , or being connected to shall we say unsavory business contacts .
> Those type actions are what the people are complaining about and the fact that the rich in many cases are above the law . It doesnt help that while accounting for most of the income in the country they barely pay half the taxes . we hear all the talk about returning to the constitution , well that is right up until it comes to taxing businesses which is the only tax the constitution allowed until 1913 when the rich business owner bought the government and had them switch the tax burden to the working stiffs .
> Frankly I dont mind paying taxes but I want everyone to pay their share ,Im sick of being a ant feeding the queens council (rich)


Don - I'm partial to everyone paying XX% of their income, and doing away with all the other nonsense. I'm not fond of the "queens" either, but that is not what I'm seeing - that's just in Political forum. Read elsewhere - you'll see what I'm referring to.


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## Ruby (May 10, 2002)

It's called communism. I don't understand anyone who would want that. Sometime life is not fair but who said it was suppose to be. I would rather not have the riches and have freedom to make choices than to have communism.

Our forefathers faught and died for our freedom. That does not mean the poor has the freedom to take from the rich. It means the rich has a right to keep what they earn. It means the poor has a right to go out and earn a living. Yes they may have to do without having a brand new car, a 10,000 sq. ft. home but they have the right to make do with what they have.

I've never had much, quit school and got married at the age of 17, married a man who wouldn't make me a living. But when you make choices you have to live with those choices or go out and change them and next time make better ones. I've never begrudged a person for having more than me. I know my riches are in heaven and I try to live my life so I'll have them at the end.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

One other thing to think on -

if you take help from another - in many (not all) cases - you've given away some freedom and the giver may gently,kindly tell you what you should be doing or may in some cases, feel they bought you and can tell you what to do.

Taking care of yourself will give you freedom.


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

WIHH summed it up perfectly.

It will get to the point where the taxpayers are taxed to the point that THEY become destitute. This is the Obama plan, make no mistake about it. Drive as many people as possible onto government aid--for the food in their mouths, the clothes on their backs, and the roof over their heads. It's a self-feeding cycle---tax those who can pay even more and more to sustain those who don't, which will mean more taxpayers will eventually go broke and need government help, so taxes have to increase to pay for more people on welfare, so more people will be driven onto welfare, so more money will be needed, so more will be driven onto welfare.

Not just no, but HECK no. We're not rich, and getting poorer all the time. 

It's time that many of the people who are dependant on the various government programs find some other way to get by. The country is literally going bankrupt trying to support all of it.


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

PyroDon said:


> It doesnt help that while accounting for most of the income in the country they barely pay half the taxes . we hear all the talk about returning to the constitution , well that is right up until it comes to taxing businesses which is the only tax the constitution allowed until 1913 when the rich business owner bought the government and had them switch the tax burden to the working stiffs .
> Frankly I dont mind paying taxes but I want everyone to pay their share ,Im sick of being a ant feeding the queens council (rich)



Some here might call me "rich". We're financially independent, because we work hard. DH puts in 60+ hours per week consulting, and I do my thing, not earning quite as much as he does, but certainly more than most. 

I'd like to know why should someone who makes 20K a year pays less of a PERCENTAGE than I do? I am happy to pay my taxes -- so long as I'm paying only my share. Why should I be required to shoulder more of a percentage-load than someone who chooses to flip burgers for a living? Who didn't eat KD or scrambled eggs for every meal for four solid years and live in someone else's basement in order to get through school, while working a full time AND a part time job? Why should my investment in my future "entitle" me to pay a larger percentage of my income in order to support programs I don't believe in?

I pay my taxes, but I can tell you, I'd be happier to pay them, and probably give more to charity than I already do, if I knew that there was a flat percentage tax rate that applied to EVERYONE, and people didn't get tax "breaks" based on popping out another baby that they can't afford each year.

There is a lot of talk about "fair" taxes - well, I see "fair" applying to those who earn the least. I know that there are a few over-paid executives working for a few (very few) high-profile companies who have not paid their "fair" share -- if any. But there are MANY more high-income earners -- who work 60, 70, 80 hour work weeks to ensure that their companies prosper and, incidentally, provide jobs for many others, who are being ceremonially reamed in order for those earning in the lower tax brackets to pay less.

I'm sick of shouldering it. X% off the top for EVERYONE would be "FAIR" -- regardless if you made $1000 or $100,000. No excuses, no "breaks", no special considerations. You earned X dollars, you owe X% of that amount. Pay it and be done --- for EVERYONE.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

We are just over the poverty line....if we made $200 a month less we would get free health care...instead we pay $14k a year and have a $5000 deductible...nat'l healthcare would HELP us but *we are against* it....because we are not just thinking of our own situation.

I don't have a paying job by choice....but trust me I work often 12-14 hrs a day housekeeping, teaching, farming....a few days a year I HATE it...most of the time I'm grateful to have the family connection and to work with animals and dirt.

My husband used to make more $$ working 80hrs a week....but family life was more important. I have an idea that our net worth would be much larger than most would expect....All done legally, and hard earned.

But my concern is for the corrupt business people being propped up by taxpayer money (bailouts) and the guise of the church's that are simply making money off their people and probably closest to my surface anger is the millions on welfare that "appear" to live more luxurious lives....my children go to school with them....my children share their lunch with them when they have no money for lunch....I provide food to the food pantry thru my couponing efforts....will they come and use a pitchfork for the day to earn some food from my larder??? No, because the lack of work ethic and integrity is being rewarded thru welfare and hard working taxpaying citizens....Have they no shame? and corporate welfare types I will say the same...Have you no shame?

As far as experience adding up to $15 an hour....LOL My husband has been making $12-16 an hour since he was 21yo AND he's a licensed plumber and Master oil burner with 24yrs experience and he does good work...and $16 an hour minus health care premium....We are lucky he is still working at this point.

Anger----WASTE, FRAUD, LACK of INTEGRITY, LACK of WORK ETHIC at every income level in AMERICA....
I'm held accountable, why isn't everyone else?


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

While I agree that there is some 'rich bashing' going on, I think others need to get over their elitist attitudes. 

Labels are labels are labels. Stereotyping is ignorance in a shabby coat. Not all "poor" people are on the dole and not all "rich" people are crooked. There will always be someone better off and someone poorer than you. It's how you react to it that matters. Are you going to sit an bash in an attempt to make yourself feel better or are you just going to do what you can to fix what you can? Face it, whining about someone getting a piece of your pie or seeing how you can get more pie isn't going to solve a thing-especially when it's on an internet forum. 

We would do batter to get our noses out of the minute details of other peoples lives and focusing more on what we can do for ourselves and those we love. Let's go back to the focus of this forum and instead of bashing, let's help each other. Let's get back to "Survival and Prep". Let's ship the political stuff over to the other forum and let them sully themselves with it.


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

mpillow said:


> Anger----WASTE, FRAUD, LACK of INTEGRITY, LACK of WORK ETHIC at every income level in AMERICA....
> I'm held accountable, why isn't everyone else?


:clap: :clap: :clap:


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Tracy Rimmer said:


> Some here might call me "rich". We're financially independent, because we work hard. DH puts in 60+ hours per week consulting, and I do my thing, not earning quite as much as he does, but certainly more than most.
> 
> I'd like to know why should someone who makes 20K a year pays less of a PERCENTAGE than I do? I am happy to pay my taxes -- so long as I'm paying only my share. Why should I be required to shoulder more of a percentage-load than someone who chooses to flip burgers for a living? Who didn't eat KD or scrambled eggs for every meal for four solid years and live in someone else's basement in order to get through school, while working a full time AND a part time job? Why should my investment in my future "entitle" me to pay a larger percentage of my income in order to support programs I don't believe in?
> 
> ...


Fair tax isnt fair a flat tax on all income would be but as was pointed out thats for another forum and it will never happen because those who are "rich" would have to pay their share rather than hide it in off shore accounts and tax shelters .
some might consider Us rich as well after all we own our home which is far more than most , we have a decent car . My kids go to a private school with some of the wealthiest folks in the county. yet we are never more than a day or two from having a late bill . while the majority in the county is in far worse shape than ourselves . in the last couple years we have opened our home to two homeless couples with children and one throw away teen . 
if one looks at history when things get as bad as they are heading for revolutions happen . empty bellies and desperation force changes .
when the top 5% have more than 80% of the wealth theres something wrong .when wages for the workers go down and at the same time the management gets bonuses trouble starts brewing. we are fast heading towards a french revolution in this country. because pure capitalism is no less oppressive than pure communism or socialism.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

PyroDon said:


> Fair tax isnt fair a flat tax on all income would be but as was pointed out thats for another forum and it will never happen because those who are "rich" would have to pay their share rather than hide it in off shore accounts and tax shelters .
> some might consider Us rich as well after all we own our home which is far more than most , we have a decent car . My kids go to a private school with some of the wealthiest folks in the county. yet we are never more than a day or two from having a late bill . while the majority in the county is in far worse shape than ourselves . in the last couple years we have opened our home to two homeless couples with children and one throw away teen .
> if one looks at history when things get as bad as they are heading for revolutions happen . empty bellies and desperation force changes .
> when the top 5% have more than 80% of the wealth theres something wrong .when wages for the workers go down and at the same time the management gets bonuses trouble starts brewing. we are fast heading towards a french revolution in this country. because pure capitalism is no less oppressive than pure communism or socialism.


How about those who never pay taxes yet get a "refund"?
In your opinion, does that need to stop happening and those people start paying their fair share too?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Guys - this is not about taxes, 

It's an observation that those that don't have are starting to be more vocal about what they are owed, and that can be what you have.

Rich is subjective. Rich is Money to some; food or land or home to others.

No one is OWED anything more than they have earned.

Taking care, putting back being ready for those that think they are owed cause they played or made choices that do not do them well in the long run.


For those that don't relate to the $$ version of rich, what if you took the time and put up 100 jars of garden foods and someone started complaining that it is unfair that you have 100 jars of food and they don't, but they will not even put in a garden or go to the farmer's market or gleen a farmers field to do something to get a 100 jars of food for themselves - they just want your work? Or they watch from their porch while you work. This is able bodied folks, not someone who you would help if they tried or if disabled/ill.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Cornhusker said:


> How about those who never pay taxes yet get a "refund"?
> In your opinion, does that need to stop happening and those people start paying their fair share too?


We are in that group because of the cost of health ins. but if giving up that money would mean that the markets/programs would be more accountable, I'd give it all back because I'm convinced that everone's taxes would go down.

You know if our gov't could just stop being so wasteful and corrupt I'd donate all my tax return to paying down the debt. I don't need much to live on but I do want my country to remain good and great for generations to come.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

AngieM2 said:


> Guys - this is not about taxes,
> 
> It's an observation that those that don't have are starting to be more vocal about what they are owed, and that can be what you have.
> 
> ...


I feel the same way Angie.



mpillow said:


> We are in that group because of the cost of health ins. but if giving up that money would mean that the markets/programs would be more accountable, I'd give it all back because I'm convinced that everone's taxes would go down.
> 
> You know if our gov't could just stop being so wasteful and corrupt I'd donate all my tax return to paying down the debt. I don't need much to live on but I do want my country to remain good and great for generations to come.


And I agree with this too.


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## Energy Rebel (Jan 22, 2011)

I can only offer an answer to both (or all) sides from the best advice book I know.
Apologogies for paraphrasing, but I'm sure you can look it up for yourself.

1 Timothy 6:10
For the *love* of money is the root of all evil.............

Luke 12:48
To much is given, much is expected..................


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## Marabunta (Feb 24, 2011)

The American Dream, simply put, is that you own your labor, that you are free to do with it whatever you please, and that you therefore have a shot at achieving your goals.

If I want to exchange my labor for something owned by someone else (i.e. hire myself out for a wage), I'm free to do so. Or if I want to use my labor to produce something to sell, I can have at it. It's my labor; I'm free to do whatever I like with it. (Even nothing at all, if I choose.) And no one is responsible for my decision and its consequences but me.

When I hire myself out, I engage in a free exchange. I work, you pay me. When payday arrives and you hand me my check, we're square. In other words, you don't owe me another thing. The books are balanced. You're not responsible for my house payment nor my grocery bill.

If I decide I don't like our arrangement, I'm free to seek a better exchange rate for my labor from you or someone else. I don't need a Mommy to plan my future and make sure I have enough lunch money. I'm a grown-up, and can manage my main resource - my labor - on my own.

So sleep well, AngieM2, and don't worry. As long as you've kept up your end of the bargain and paid for the labor you've agreed to purchase, the books are balanced.

But if you insist on mothering your employees (i.e. "I'm responsible for their house payments, etc."), don't be surprised when they act like children and come back whining for more.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

NickieL said:


> as long as the rich folks didn't harm other folks to get their money, I've no beef with those who have it
> 
> if they've lied, cheated, stolen, murdered or just abused other folks and their employees then no, they should not be able to enjoy that wealth


Are you going to be the judge? Are you going to redistribute their wealth? Will you pull the lever, trigger, or injector to punish them?

Under Pol Pot's regime, you could be executed for wearing eyeglasses under the assumption that 1) You must have been rich to be able to afford them 2) You must have been part of the academic elite who could afford to go to school and lord over the people, so you need those eyeglasses to read contracts and such. 3) Reading is a frivolous activity that rich people do instead of working the fields like the poor people. 

His band of Cambodian ******** had the simple goal of bringing civilization back to the way things used to be, where everyone could only be free by working the land in a pre-industrial age.

I think this is the attitude that is stirring the pot.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

> But if you insist on mothering your employees (i.e. "I'm responsible for their house payments, etc."), don't be surprised when they act like children and come back whining for more.


Marabunta - I only meant that in the way of having a business is a responsibility to whomever is hired that their work for paycheck from us was carrying all that ultimately.


And thank you for pointing out the "American Dream" so well.


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## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

I am dead poor. I have no money, ands since being laid off in sept, I have relied on the dole to feed my kids, but not for want of trying to make my own money. 

I don't care about being poor, but it is deeply embarressing to be at the point I am now. I can't wait till I can pay my bills and feed my boys. 

Do I WANT your money? No. I am willing and able to work, and work hard. I will be working as soon as I can find a job. I am one of those that got suckerpunched, and it makes me sick. HOWEVER....I have seen those who work the system. I have inlaws that do it to an art. They had all the kids they could get benefits for, and then stopped. They got onto gov housing, and worked less for a month so they could keep what they make...and then blew it all at the rent to own place. They are on fs, but buy carp food...and go hungry at the end of the month, while their kids sit at home, underweight, failing in public school, and THEN they call CPS on me...so they can have my two boys as their own...and get more benefits for being foster parents. 

They are those that work under the table, so they can make the money and reap the welfare at once. They make me sick, and I am nothing like them, and yet, I get lumped with them. 

I agree that it is BAD to be on welfare. Some people need it. I do at this moment. I pray no longer do, and it seems my prayers are bing answered. Things aer looking up, financially, for me. But those who sponge for years and years, plan and scheme to do it as effectively as they can? they are disgusting people.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

BillHoo said:


> Are you going to be the judge? Are you going to redistribute their wealth? Will you pull the lever, trigger, or injector to punish them?
> 
> Under Pol Pot's regime, you could be executed for wearing eyeglasses under the assumption that 1) You must have been rich to be able to afford them 2) You must have been part of the academic elite who could afford to go to school and lord over the people, so you need those eyeglasses to read contracts and such. 3) Reading is a frivolous activity that rich people do instead of working the fields like the poor people.
> 
> ...



So you advocate harming others to gather your wealth? You advocate lying, cheating, murdering etc....

Ok. I'm glad i know this about you now. If I believe and say that folks should earn their money honestly, morally is stirring the pot, then so be it. I'm glad to do that.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Seems were all so edgy these days...no?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

mpillow said:


> Seems were all so edgy these days...no?


Very much so...


Maybe we should all pool resources in a park area, have a bbq, a few soft and not so soft drinks, and talk around a bon fire and make smores. Turn the world off for a day or two.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

PyroDon said:


> Fair tax isnt fair a flat tax on all income would be but as was pointed out thats for another forum and it will never happen because those who are "rich" would have to pay their share rather than hide it in off shore accounts and tax shelters .
> some might consider Us rich as well after all we own our home which is far more than most , we have a decent car . My kids go to a private school with some of the wealthiest folks in the county. yet we are never more than a day or two from having a late bill . while the majority in the county is in far worse shape than ourselves . in the last couple years we have opened our home to two homeless couples with children and one throw away teen .
> if one looks at history when things get as bad as they are heading for revolutions happen . empty bellies and desperation force changes .
> when the top 5% have more than 80% of the wealth theres something wrong .when wages for the workers go down and at the same time the management gets bonuses trouble starts brewing. we are fast heading towards a french revolution in this country. because pure capitalism is no less oppressive than pure communism or socialism.



The fact is under a flat tax, with everyone paying an equal share, the poor would be paying way more than they do now.

It's a fact that the the Top 10 percent wage earners in America are paying over 60 percent of all the Federal Personal Income tax collected. Is there any $$ hidden? maybe, but the rich would still end up paying WAY more than their fair share of taxes.

The bottom 50 percent of wage earners only pay 2.7 percent of all taxes collected. Is there any money hidden? Probably. I'd think more of the poor get paid under the table or don't report cash like tips or charges that don't make it to an accounting system.

I illustrate this, not to defend the wealthy, but to warn you that you may get what you wish for and it might not be good for YOU.


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## Marabunta (Feb 24, 2011)

AngieM2 said:


> I only meant that in the way of having a business is a responsibility to whomever is hired that their work for paycheck from us was carrying all that ultimately.


I misunderstood you. My apologies!

I'm so used to hearing how employers "owe their employees this" and "owe their employees that"... The only thing my employer owes me is the wage we agreed upon, not some undefinable "living wage" or "my fair share" of the profits from HIS labor or big idea or risky venture.

(Sometimes we need to be reminded of "The Parable of the Laborers" in Matthew 20.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

NickieL said:


> So you advocate harming others to gather your wealth? You advocate lying, cheating, murdering etc....
> 
> Ok. I'm glad i know this about you now. If I believe and say that folks should earn their money honestly, morally is stirring the pot, then so be it. I'm glad to do that.


I'm doing no such thing.

You're the one implying that YOU KNOW WHO IS LYING, CHEATING, MURDERING, ETC. You're passing your God-like judgement over them.

If you truly believe this. Go out and do something about it.

We'll read about you in the papers and feel even more edgy about the state of things.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

AngieM2 said:


> Very much so...
> 
> 
> Maybe we should all pool resources in a park area, have a bbq, a few soft and not so soft drinks, and talk around a bon fire and make smores. Turn the world off for a day or two.


I dunno about sharing a fire with some here, not after what I've learned about some folks the last couple days at HT, is there going to be a dress code?:bash::kiss:


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

BillHoo said:


> I'm doing no such thing.
> 
> You're the one implying that YOU KNOW WHO IS LYING, CHEATING, MURDERING, ETC. You're passing your God-like judgement over them.
> 
> ...


All I SAID was folks should earn it honestly. I did not point out who.:yuck: If you disagree with the state ment that money should be earned honestly and not by harming others thats on you. And that's what our justice system is for here in the USA.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Marabunta said:


> I misunderstood you. My apologies!
> 
> I'm so used to hearing how employers "owe their employees this" and "owe their employees that"... The only thing my employer owes me is the wage we agreed upon, not some undefinable "living wage" or "my fair share" of the profits from HIS labor or big idea or risky venture.
> 
> (Sometimes we need to be reminded of "The Parable of the Laborers" in Matthew 20.


This brings up an incident that happened at work about 2 years ago. A lady that worked next to me was from the island of Nevis from the Carabian. She had difficulty with a nose to the grindstone work vs the social aspects of life. Very laid back. Well, her non-results showed. Comes time for raises and the yearly bonus. She received neither. We had to explain that the only thing the company owed her was the paycheck/benefits she hired in at for the job she agreed to.... nothing more. That a raise was earned and bonus was a gift - she was going to go to HR to bring up the injustice of this. She does not work there any longer, and very little is missed. But she had a really good Life is more important than work attitude - some days I need about 10% added to my life.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

Just remember folks, the news /entertainment industry doesn't make money by reporting how everything is going well and the weather is always going to be great!

They know you will all be lead by the images of a house burning down, or a hostage being killed, or a nation (or two) collapsing before your very eyes (and encouraging that too). Nothing better to feed the masses than to show "rich people" being pulled out of their acres of land and meet their come uppance.

The world is not always a nice place. But things are getting better each day. Thank God for what you have. Don't envy what others have. And be prepared for the occasional bumps in the road, bad weather, or volcano.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

NickieL said:


> I dunno about sharing a fire with some here, not after what I've learned about some folks the last couple days at HT, is there going to be a dress code?:bash::kiss:


Since you mentioned it yes! Well fitting jeans, flannel shirts and hip waders in case the Sheet gets deep:nana:
*
NO SIDEWAYS HATS AND DROOPY DRAWERS*:thumb:


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## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

lol. I would go to a fire and hang out! I'd want to know if everyone is as I picture them, lol


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Cornhusker said:


> How about those who never pay taxes yet get a "refund"?
> In your opinion, does that need to stop happening and those people start paying their fair share too?


I believe I said Flat tax on everyone did I not .
theres a mis conception that the poor dont pay taxes . 
They pay far more of their income in sales tax than the rich or middle class do 
they may not presently be paying federal taxes but it ia taken out of their pay check even if they do get it back at the end of the year. 
Buffet proved that his secretary was taxed a higher percentage rate than he was . so I do have a problem with the belief the Rich pay more . They pay far less of their income in taxes than the average working person. Id prefer that we all pay the same rate on every dime . you notice how fast we could lower the national debt if it was done .
as i said before the gulf between the poor and the ubber rich is expanding, wages for the average worker are falling while the management pockets the difference . its a cycle thats been repeated over and over throughout history the result has always been the same . the rich trod down the poor until desperation cause the poor to rise up, head roll, the wealthy lose some of their power , wages increase a middle class is born then the cycle repeats its self . 
The current mantra that is often seen here as well seems to be let them eat cake . didnt save maria did it . didnt save the czar, didnt save russia or even rome .
There seems to be a misconception that the poor want everything given to them, thats very very seldom the case . They simply want the chance to make an honest living . They want a living wage and a job they can take pride in, a job where they dont feel threatened . 
In the 50s and 60s we had the largest and strongest middle class and economy in the world . that all started changing in the 70s with a further shift of the tax burden from the businesses and rich to the poor . prior to the 70s and 80s, the rich and businesses paid according to there income some as much as 90%. Our economy grew steadily, workers had job security. fast forward to the 80s taxes for the top earners were cut , taxes on the middle class raised the economy tanked (granted trillions in over spending havent helped ) but then neither does the voodoo economics that claim spend more tax less will some how reduce the debt . sorry but some of us can do math 
when you reduce your income and increase your spending your digging a deeper hole .
want the Golden years back then do what was done then to recreate them rather than continue with a path that has done nothing but drag the nation further down


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

AngieM2 said:


> Very much so...
> 
> 
> Maybe we should all pool resources in a park area, have a bbq, a few soft and not so soft drinks, and talk around a bon fire and make smores. Turn the world off for a day or two.


Can I bring a bottle? Oh and Pyro, your last post was right on.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Id be more than happy to BBQ with any of ya .
Ive actually done such meets more than once , the last had more than 300 show up we treated them all as family . One attending brought me an auto graphed photo of GW Bush, I gave him a Thank you note from Hillary Clinton , we both had a good laugh 
A gentalman I know gave us a 16ft BBQ trailer to use and we made ribs BBQ venison, Chicken hot dogs, chilli. One of the folks from HT came and brought sauces and fresh veggies, a lady from PA made pasta. there was a cross section of every economic group, religion,political view, and race . all had come together for friendship.
even though when online we might have beaten eachother over the head many times we shook hands and reveled in the fact that we are all human and all have good ing our hearts


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

PyroDon said:


> I believe I said Flat tax on everyone did I not .
> theres a mis conception that the poor dont pay taxes .
> They pay far more of their income in sales tax than the rich or middle class do
> they may not presently be paying federal taxes but it ia taken out of their pay check even if they do get it back at the end of the year.
> ...


So to make a long story short, you think the money should be redistributed, taken from the "rich" and given to the "poor" so everybody has a similar slice of the pie?


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Cornhusker said:


> So to make a long story short, you think the money should be redistributed, taken from the "rich" and given to the "poor" so everybody has a similar slice of the pie?


no I think we should all pay our share .
theres a reason the big guy said its easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven


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## pkchicken (Sep 15, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> I'm reading the forums, and I read many of them here, a lot. I am noticing such things that have been talked about here in years past coming to happen - here on HT.
> 
> There are so many starting to post how bad anyone that has substantial amount of anything (i.e. RICH) are being demonized. Anyone rich is bad as they have money, power, things. People are starting to show that they think the little guy that did not take the risks, do the hours of schooling, are pay the price to have the various "Riches"; but it's unfair for some to have more.
> 
> ...


I hear you!
We are in the same boat!
We gave up vacations and expensive gifts to build this place up. 
Granted most people wouldn't considder us 'rich' but I do!

Rich through hard hard work! 
Rich in "how to" knowledge.

Meanwhile people we know have indulged in fancy restaurants and expensive gifts but have nothing of survival value to show for it.

I guess they won't like our rice and beans so much................

pk


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

The previous post made me think of something... any comrades raiding our home expecting steak, seafood, gourmet cheeses and wine, delicacies and expensive tid-bits from the wealthy (as they might percieve us to be) are going to be sorely disappointed.... when they whip open my freezer to find... deer burger, frozen tomatoes, peppers and onions, some hot dogs, etc. etc.

Quote "Are you going to be the judge? Are you going to redistribute their wealth? Will you pull the lever, trigger, or injector to punish them"

Sadly, if the country ever comes to this point, *someone* will end up making these sorts of decisions. It's happened so many times before, in so many countries, where the ideology of the 'working class' ends up being a massacre of the 'wealthy'--- even when the 'wealthy' have not harmed anyone. This happened to my great grandparents in their home country. Worked their way up from poverty, took care of their family, and were caught in the bloody tide of revolution. About half the family simply disappeared--gone--no one ever heard or saw them again. Like so many who disappeard, their bodies were never recovered. No doubt buried in a salt mine, or left for the wolves to eat. 

Yes, *someone* decides *who* is wealthy, and as such deserving of death. It HAS happened, and the idea that retribution can be selective---"well, *this* rich person didn't hurt anyone, so he can live, but THIS rich person hurt people, so let's chop his head off, and his wife and kids, too. That'll show 'em!!" is naive at best, and historically erroneous at worst. In a rising tide of proletariat frenzy, ALL 'rich' people will be slaughtered. 

THAT kind of thinking harmed millions of innocent people. THAT way of thinking ends in massacre, and insanity.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

LOL! Fair enough. Let's say I concur with Harry Chickpea that not everyone acquires their wealth by honest toil. 

Actually, as a feminist, it rather galls me to think that I arrived at financial security not by 20 years of diligent labor (although it was a good start) but by marrying a man with lots of money. :shrug:


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

I don't see anything wrong with that either. You harmed no one in marrying him, correct?


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## Blu3duk (Jun 2, 2002)

Ive heard those rumblings from WELFARE recipients [government workers] for a long time where they just cant make it with what they have those who have aught topay for their medical and whatever else it is they need.... 

What about me? I am self employed [just recently became a statistic with not one but 2 new LLC's registered] I dont have and never had anyone offer me any medical benefits or retirement package, I get 15% taken from my pay for those tings i dont believe i will ever see in my lifetime [socialist security, medicare] and from what i can see of this new socialist medical scam, it wont help me either, I will just end up paying the fine for not having insurance and then pay the regular fee on top of that.... 

With that said, I know at one time Unions did a wonderful thing, and probably working conditions in several risky jobs are better for it, but ive seen the down side of unions too, when they shut down a local economy by striking and the owner of the sawmill pulling it out and moving to another state [1980-83] not even to another country like they do now. And the union workers cried cause they couldnt feed teir families while on strike or after the mill left..... yeah buddy what about me, i got less for my saw logs cause there was no competition, only one game left in the area and they ruled.... <----my rant

Do i want the workers to not be taken care or, no, I want them to be responsible for thier OWN actions in this REPUBLIC that my family helped establish during the Revolutionary war and several thereafter..... times change and if you dont change with it, then you starve or get helped by those who can and are WILLING to give you a HAND UP, or a hand out which ever the provider feels comfortable doing.

My wife was one of the people who thought those who inherit should pay more tax on the inheritance cause they did not "earn it", until i calmly [for me anyway] explained that the original owner of the property [money is property] paid taxes of some sort on it when they received it.... very simple, very easy..... 

If you dont like that some people earn a huge sum of cash for their CEO positions, use your feet and do not purchase anything they make or sell.... go elsewhere, and make your doing so known to your family and friends and neighbors and the reasons why.... it is effective.

A man who once run for POTUS, said *"broke is temporary, poor is a permanent state of mind"* his name H. Ross Perot, he grew up in poverty and was one wealthy individual because of it, not for the dollars he had, but for the wealth of knowledge he gained over the years..... and put to use.... and people mocked him in this once great nation of the several states.

No one is entitled to anything from birth to death, yet there are those who believe otherwise and it stems from communism and the believers of that who have infiltrated into the government we have to survive under..... it can be done, and many of us are doing it.... one way or another.

There are still ways to get the dream you have if you want, and not demand that everything be handed to you in the several states of America united...... progressive income tax, or the 16th amendment is merely one of the planks of the communist manifesto that the progressives got tossed in [some say it was never properly ratified and have written books with documented evidence from the Library of Congress] to mess with the people of the several states, but we have to deal with it, as until it is reversed its the game we are forced to play under duress, that others may have without working.

As an ant i fully understand, and mayhaps ranted a bit over the top, but i aint around just to make friends and influence people anymore!

William
North Central Idaho
Digg It Prospecting Supply LLc


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

Blu3duk - nice post

Whilst I fully agree that people shouldn't "expect" sometimes people with money don't help the situation. I know a family near me - there are three brothers. One left the island when he was young and is a different part of the equation. One brother left for a while, had a lot of help and support from distant relations, and his In-laws to be, came back to the island took over his FIL's business, worked very hard, and is very nicely off.

The other brother stayed here, lived at home for a long time because he was helping the mother nurse his sick father, never even got a social life because of it, has done a series of dead end jobs, has had a shot at self-employment which went wrong mostly because he didn't have anyone giving him any decent advice - has worked VERY hard all his life and is poor as dirt.

He isn't unhappy with his lot, he knows that one day he'll "get there" BUT.....his brother is always rubbing in how his success is because he works hard and has worked for everything he has got. He will NOT acknowledge that his work was backed by lots of support from all quarters, and he went into an existing business, whereas his brother has worked just as hard (if not harder) and has got nowhere.

I can see how that could VERY easily lead to bitterness - not because of the financial situation, but because the better off brother will not accept that the other brother has worked just as hard as he has.

That sort of attitude rubs people up the wrong way. People who aren't well off aren't always what they appear on the outside - sometimes those people work just as hard, and "deserve" success just as much as those who actually have it. Sometimes they just haven't had the breaks that the better off have.

I have to say that I haven't seen the "we'll come and get what you've got" attitude in the forums, but I'm not around as much these days as I used to be so maybe just haven't spotted it. But, if it is the case, then I guess it makes coping even with a slow slide a different thing. Everyone that comes to the door will be a potential problem. I guess it all comes back to networking NOW

If you guys all meet up - I expect to see photos, and LOTS of them 

hoggie


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## farmerpat (Jan 1, 2008)

Bue3duk - FANTASTIC POST! We too are self-employed. We pay 100% of our health insurance, 100% of our SEP contributions, don't get paid sick leave or vacation or Federal holidays off, or any of the other "bennies" that others get. I get soooo sick of hearing "redistribute the wealth". We are anything BUT wealthy. Right now things are getting dicey because a couple of clients we work for haven't paid us (one since last August!), and the bank balances are getting precariously low, but we are ants, and I have canned/dehydrated/prepped for the lean times, and we will get along fine and not starve. I worry about the feed bill for the livestock, the insurance pymts coming due, and the ever-present electric bill, mortgage and pasture lease payments due every month. But we WILL get through this lean time, as we have gotten through the others in the past. It just galls me no end to hear those who have the most WHINE and complain when they want more of what the have-nots have amassed through hard work and sacrifice. Sure wish somebody would pay MY health insurance premiums, and contribute 1/2 to my SEP.


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Funny how the people who complain the most about their jobs are almost always the ones that have the least invested in them. Most can't even claim to have invested in a lunchbox anymore.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I don't see anything wrong with that either. You harmed no one in marrying him, correct?


Well, he kicked out his girlfriend, and I had to divorce a husband, so it was a little messy in the beginning, but everything worked out in the end! 

(And his ex got a huge chunk of cash and a house out of the deal, while mine quickly found a new wife to support him, so ... it's all good!) 

Again ... my point is that one should not confuse wealth with virtue. T'aint necessarily so!


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Ah, willow - but that still does not give anyone that has not the right to any of his funds.

The whole point of this thread is - those that do not want to do the work, think they are entitled "owed" funds of the workers.

Or, the non-preparing (money, canned goods, etc) are starting to think they deserve what they did not work for.

And in your lively examples - apparently all involved with the source of income, has done some type of work to earn it; it was not just given to them because they said they were "owed" it.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I personally don't know of anyone who just wants to be handed anything. But I think a lot of working-class people are frustrated by the lack of opportunity in America today.

My husband is 67 and retired with 3 pensions -- military, Social Security, and government civilian worker. Yes, this is in part due to his personal choices, but there are societal factors that come into play as well. The government has since gutted its civilian pension plan (he has the old, "good" plan) and today the military is forcing out many soldiers prior to retirement. Even Social Security is questionable for folks of my generation. 

I'm 44. As I posted in another thread, when my parents were married in 1953, it was possible for a high-school graduate to get a union job, own a home and car, and support a stay-at-home wife and kids, at least under modest circumstances. 

I came of age in leaner times. If you wanted the above lifestyle, a college degree was practically de rigueur. A lucky few working-class folks in my circle managed to land government or union factory jobs, but most of us had to scrape by as best we could. 

Fast forward to the present day. The factory jobs are gone and the government jobs are going. And you blame people for being discontent?

Now, I'm sure someone will say the solution is for everyone to go back to college, get a degree and land a better job. But not everyone has what it takes to succeed academically. And today, even a lot of college graduates are working as cashiers and baristas. Also, being realistic, our country needs blue-collar workers as well as white-collar ones. Someone has to pick up the trash, mop the floors in office buildings, and broil your burgers. The question is whether we as a society should accept that people who "do the real work of the world" (to borrow from poet Jim Harrison) should be consigned to relentless poverty, or whether we should support public policies (tax, trade, etc.) that enable them to lead decent and productive lives.


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## farmerpat (Jan 1, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> I personally don't know of anyone who just wants to be handed anything.
> 
> 
> ...Fast forward to the present day. The factory jobs are gone and the government jobs are going. And you blame people for being discontent?
> ...


As to your first point, you must live in a bubble, because I know LOTS of people who want to be handed everything. They act like it's an imposition for someone to even consider that they might actually need to <gasp!> work for a living!

People can be discontented. People WILL be discontented. But the people (in my opinion) who have the MOST right to be discontented are those that work and struggle and budget and buy from the thrift store, only to be told that they are "rich" and MUST give money to those who not only make more money than they do, but keep wanting more and more and more. When is "enough", ENOUGH? Don't people realize that the reason they DO have some money is because they've pinched every penny twice???

And another thing, while I'm up here on my :soap:, why is it the "rich" never seem to include people like, uh well, Oprah, Barbra Streisand, Michael Moore, Obama, and so on? Why is it always the upper middle class who get painted with this "rich is bad" brush, while those that are TRULY HONESTLY rich, just get IGNORED???? You wanna make things fair in my book, then hit all Americans equally! Take a certain percentage of everyone's income, and then stand back and let people live. I don't get a break on having to pay for my insurance and SEP and other stuff like others do ---where is the equity in that?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I've been pretty quiet here because I'm in the middle of one of those "Road to Damascus" books that change your complete way of thinking.

A couple of things so far ...

The bible defines pretty clearly what "poor" is. It's those who cannot work due to some illness or infirmity, and widows and orphans. THOSE we are commanded to help. 

You are NOT poor because you don't have a color television, internet access, or an iPod. You are not poor because you don't own a 3000 square foot home in Beverly Hills. You are not even poor if you don't own a home. You are not poor if you don't have access to good healthcare. You are not poor if you don't have access to a good education.

So long as I have food, shelter, and clothing I'm doing ok. That food may be bugs and leaves. That shelter may be an old hollow tree. That clothing may be someone else's cast off rags. 

If we wish to prevail, we've got to break the grip on our minds that modern society has put there. 99.9% of the human population has lived without these things that we call neccessities. People didn't live bleak and miserable existences right up to the point where American Idol came on television and you could walk around listening to your favorite music on your iPod.


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

Amen, Ernie.

"Poor" has become subjective. People think they're "poor" if they can't have what they WANT, as opposed to what they NEED. The line between the two has become blurred by the media, which tells you that you NEED everything from that new car to the fast food -- after all, the people in the commercials look so HAPPY, and we want to be HAPPY, don't we?

It's sickening.

I've seen parts of the world where women walk for hours for a cup of rice, collect rags in dumps to sell for a few pennies to buy that cup of rice, and then go home and sit, hungry, watching as their children eat, and they do not. That home is, more often than not, not even what we would consider a "garden shed". We need to reevaluate the difference between "need" and "want", or it will be the end of us.


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

Can you imagine what would happen if the alphabet offices like the WPA and CCC were started up again and those who didn't have jobs or are on any kind of welfare would have to work for their monthly supplement? 

Used to be hard work and sweat were a good thing. I am not going to be envious of someone else's good fortune. However, I will say this as a taxpayer, since I am going to have to work longer and retire later as a private sector, social security paying taxpayer, then the public sector workers need to give it up too. :hair

Everyone here in the U.S.has the same opportunities to make money it's the bad decisions you make with your life that diminishes those opportunities.

Edited to add: Those who serve in the military I do NOT consider to be in the public sector. Those who serve should be well cared for!


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

belladulcinea said:


> Can you imagine what would happen if the alphabet offices like the WPA and CCC were started up again and those who didn't have jobs or are on any kind of welfare would have to work for their monthly supplement?


Well I think many of us would like to see that happen . 
If one recalls those work programs taught a generation (the golden generation) a work ethic and skill that lead our nation to its greatest prosperity .
three decades are solid growth .


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

PyroDon said:


> If one recalls those work programs taught a generation (the golden generation) a work ethic and skill that lead our nation to its greatest prosperity .
> three decades are solid growth .


I snorted coffee out my nose when I read that.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

you dont consider the 40s50s and 60s solid growth? 
they produced the largest middle class in the nations history, private home ownership , huge industrial wealth .


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

I just got home from church, so I'm feeling a little less abrasive than I normally do on this forum. But willow is right on in her last post. And so is Ernie. [begrudgingly admitted on my part!] No jobs, lower paying jobs, quite simply mean less taxes paid. This also translates into less goods and services purchased. No brainer. The elephant in the room everyone is ignoring is the National Debt. At the rate the middle class is shrinking, it will be only the rich left to pay for it. And I'm sure they won't do that, they'll just give away whatever national and public treasure in trade and sell future generations down the road to servicing this debt. Nope nuthin's gonna get better for a long time.


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## BlueberryChick (May 12, 2008)

It seems to me that if more people were willing to live like people lived in the 50's, more people could live on one income (not everyone, but more). 

If families were willing to live in a smaller house, with one bathroom, one family car, one TV, mending clothes, cooking from scratch, etc., a lot more families could get by on one source of income. In short, live like many on HT live!

Granted, more jobs provided health insurance and a pension back then, so that can mean a second income to provide those things.


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

PyroDon said:


> you dont consider the 40s50s and 60s solid growth?
> they produced the largest middle class in the nations history, private home ownership , huge industrial wealth .


Yes, and most of it was based on debt. We (as a society) came out of this time with an attitude that hard work was somehow "dirty".

My dad told me a story just yesterday. He was a child during the Great Depression, and we were talking about raising food. I had only ever known my grandfather as a factory worker, believing the farming was a sideline that he did evenings and weekends, and Grandma took care of for the most part. Dad told me yesterday that, before the war, Grandpa had actually farmed full time -- in his words, though, when the factory job came up during the War, they thought they'd died and gone to heaven, because they could actually EAT what they grew, rather than selling it to pay taxes. 

Sorry -- I'm drifting. The point was, Dad grew up on a farm, surrounded by other farms, which eked out just enough food to pay the bills and sometimes, SOMETIMES provided enough food for the family to have a meal or two a day -- not much more. Men, women, and children took ANY employment they could find, in order to just keep life and limb together. My Dad raised a cull calf one year, fed it and babied it for a full year, and in the end sold it for $15. That was nearly seventy years ago, and my dad still remembers that fifteen dollars, and handing it to my Grandma in order to help pay the taxes. He was eight years old, and it was necessary.

The forties came -- with war, and the increased jobs that that brought -- people had it a little easier. Not much, but a little. They had learned from the Depression years, and this was better. The only visible difference being the availability of jobs... so therefore, one did what one needed to to KEEP said job -- i.e., you worked hard, or there was someone standing in line behind you who would.

Then, the fifties. Everything was gravy. Lots of money, lots of industry, post-secondary education for everyone! People recognized the opportunities available to them... and went after them gangbusters. Some, most, succeeded in attaining a lifestyle that their parents, who had come into their adulthood during the Depression, could never have hoped for. And guess what, if you didn't have the money right now, well, we'll extend you some credit, because money and opportunities are plentiful... and everyone pays their bills if they've got the money!!!

Then, the sixties. Teenagers began to question their parent's drive, which was pulling families away from the closeness that they'd seen in their grandparent's homes, and into the "work harder to have more!" mentality. They began to question why they should WANT more "things", rather than relationships, and exploring their world and the people in it. Of course, their parents, working hard, provided the comforts of life (like food) to many of them, and there were very few demands on them. Until...

The seventies! Work? Why work? We want to get closer to PEOPLE! Mom and Dad are approaching retirement, but hey, they've always provided and always will! And, hey, who cares? Put it on credit! Yeah, I know I owe you, Mr Bill Collector, but hey, chill out, man! I'll get it to you! You know, you should spend more time CONNECTING with people!... 

Until the great wakeup call, when their parents stopped supporting them, and made them make use of that amazing education they'd happened upon... and they were suddenly responsible for their OWN bills, and, did you know they could cut off your utilities if you didn't pay the bill? The kids need an education... what do you mean I have to pay for their college? No, really? How does that work? Well, can't they get a student LOAN...? I'm too busy paying bills (what's with that, anyhow?!?) I can't afford to educate my kids... they'll have to BORROW THE MONEY...

At which point, culturally, we were convinced that, should you not have the money, you borrowed it. You didn't have to worry about getting credit, because the guys in charge were still of the generation where you paid your bills because money was plentiful in the late forties and early fifties, and the generation of lenders were of that generation... they didn't really consider that anyone WASN'T. 

The eighties were a lot of fun, because credit was so easy, kids believed that higher education was their due, and student loans were easy to get. Then, we grew up.

The nineties sucked. Bit. Blew. That good old bird came home to roost. And war was declared, and times got a little tougher, but credit was still easy to get, and getting easier, because the basis of any economy is SELL, SELL, SELL more and more STUFF!!! And when we can't make it cheaper in order to sell more (because the name of the game is VOLUME!) we'll import it from China where they can make it even CHEAPER!! Billions of dollars were transferred into the pockets of people like the Walton family -- people who read what the greed of the masses could provide in terms of a profit (and who can blame them?), but the screwy part was... it was all credit, not real money. And no one really seems, even today, to be too concerned with paying the bill.

And now, we're living with the reality of a second or third generation entering adulthood with the belief that STUFF is easy to attain, others will pay the bill when you decide you can't, the "government" (that far-off and mythical being which has no connection to the public in general... right...) will bail you out when you get in over your head, and hey.... I don't want to get a job, I want to LIVE!

Yeah. Three or four decades taught a few great lessons about work ethic.

This isn't your parent's Protestant dream anymore. This is reality, and reality tells us that people do as little as is humanly possible in order to get as much as they possibly can, believe that the government is a rich entity that lives "somewhere else" and that everyone has the right to live in the manner they see on television, without actually putting any effort into it.

Because they've never had to; the "government", which they somehow manage to believe is somehow separate from themselves, and rich, will take care of everything. And when things do start to pinch, scream that that "government" isn't taking care of the populace, without giving much thought to the fact that keeping the populace from experiencing the consequences of their own poor judgement is not the role of the government.

And we wonder where freedom has gone.

I'm sorry -- this turned into a rant. I do believe, however, that it was the generation that lived through the Great Depression which had the last great work ethic -- and maybe a few of their children, who saw opportunity during the 50s and were willing to work hard for it. Since then? IMHO, we, as a society, have been on a steady decline ever since.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

tracy i agree and thats actually what i was saying.
but look back at it ,listen to the interviews of that generation.
the WPA and CCC taught many the work ethic , taught the hay seeds and city boys In much the same manner the military teaches responsibility.
If you ask most who participated in those programs they will tell you how much they improved their work ethic and gave them skills


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

PyroDon said:


> tracy i agree and thats actually what i was saying.
> but look back at it ,listen to the interviews of that generation.
> the WPA and CCC taught many the work ethic , taught the hay seeds and city boys In much the same manner the military teaches responsibility.
> If you ask most who participated in those programs they will tell you how much they improved their work ethic and gave them skills


Because there were consequences to NOT learning those skills. And THAT is what needs to be reintroduced: consequences.

You can't pay your mortgage? You're going to have to rent. You can't afford that rent? Then you're going to have to find a cheaper place, or increase your income by working a second job. That's going to interfere with your "down time"? You suffer from a stress-related illness and can't work? Well, that's really unfortunate. Looks like you're going to be existing on pretty slim pickings, then, and no, you're not going to move in with me; not unless you're willing to carry your weight around here.

This isn't new. Back in the late 80s my brother was involved with a woman who actually had her doctor declare that she had to have breast implants, paid for by the government, because having small breasts was impacting her mental health. Seriously. She got breast augmentation because her lack of cleavage was causing her "mental anguish".

It's not the boobs, it's the attitude, and that attitude is long overdue for an adjustment. 

Take away the benefits, and, just like the Great Depression, you'll have a really painful time while people learn the much-needed lesson of the connection between working and eating, and after that you'll have a populace that values a strong worth ethic. Give people too much "for free" and they then come to believe it's theirs by right.


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## farmerpat (Jan 1, 2008)

Tracy Rimmer: GREAT posts!!!!!!!! :clap::clap::clap:


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

farmerpat said:


> Tracy Rimmer: GREAT posts!!!!!!!! :clap::clap::clap:


Ditto that! :thumb:


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

Ernie said:


> I've been pretty quiet here because I'm in the middle of one of those "Road to Damascus" books that change your complete way of thinking.
> 
> A couple of things so far ...
> 
> ...


So what are you reading?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Ernie said:


> I've been pretty quiet here because I'm in the middle of one of those "Road to Damascus" books that change your complete way of thinking.
> 
> A couple of things so far ...
> 
> ...


So very well said sir.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

NoClue said:


> So what are you reading?


It's a book another visitor to this forum turned me on to.

"Surviving Off Off-Grid: Decolonizing the Industrial Mind"

So far it has reconciled a lot of issues I've had and changed my way of thinking about a lot of things. It's one of those books that divide your entire life into "before you read it" and "after you read it".


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

Ernie said:


> It's a book another visitor to this forum turned me on to.
> 
> "Surviving Off Off-Grid: Decolonizing the Industrial Mind"
> 
> So far it has reconciled a lot of issues I've had and changed my way of thinking about a lot of things. It's one of those books that divide your entire life into "before you read it" and "after you read it".


I keep coming across references to this book. I'm going to have to read it.


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## Calico Katie (Sep 12, 2003)

Tracy Rimmer said:


> ....... Dad grew up on a farm, surrounded by other farms, which eked out just enough food to pay the bills and sometimes, SOMETIMES provided enough food for the family to have a meal or two a day -- not much more. Men, women, and children took ANY employment they could find, in order to just keep life and limb together. ........... you worked hard, or there was someone standing in line behind you who would.
> 
> ........... it was the generation that lived through the Great Depression which had the last great work ethic -- and maybe a few of their children, who saw opportunity during the 50s and were willing to work hard for it. Since then? IMHO, we, as a society, have been on a steady decline ever since.


I so appreciate everything you said in this post. There seems to be some romanticized myth that people who farmed during the depression didn't go hungry. Nah, they didn't go hungry ... they starved. Just like everybody else. My father quit school and went to work in the fields when he was 9 years old to support his mother and younger brothers and sisters. He died when he was only 60. I've always believed his body was just too tired to go on.

Yes, he joined the CCs - but it was because he already HAD a work ethic, they didn't teach it to him. He helped build roads in Colorado, not a lot of technical skill being taught there for crying out loud. But it was WORK and most of his paycheck was sent back to my mother in Oklahoma. All those hayseeds and city boys who signed up were looking for work because they already knew they had to work to eat.

My grandfather was a farmer, too. When my mother was a teenager she had one dress and a nightgown. The dress was rinsed out at night and hung up to dry so she could put it back on the next morning. That was the reality for most people because it took cash to buy cloth to make a dress. She knew what it took to get the cash to buy clothes.

It's easy to go on a rant when so many refuse to see the reality that you have so clearly summed up. Thank you. For those who cannot face the hard truth, they will continue to argue semantics and look for loopholes to argue. What I do know is that my grandkids will have a harder time of it than I did because we have destroyed what our great grandparents built.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

Tracy Rimmer said:


> Some here might call me "rich". We're financially independent, because we work hard. DH puts in 60+ hours per week consulting, and I do my thing, not earning quite as much as he does, but certainly more than most.
> 
> I'd like to know why should someone who makes 20K a year pays less of a PERCENTAGE than I do? I am happy to pay my taxes -- so long as I'm paying only my share. Why should I be required to shoulder more of a percentage-load than someone who chooses to flip burgers for a living? Who didn't eat KD or scrambled eggs for every meal for four solid years and live in someone else's basement in order to get through school, while working a full time AND a part time job? Why should my investment in my future "entitle" me to pay a larger percentage of my income in order to support programs I don't believe in?
> 
> ...




Agreed..and then to add that the % needs to be small.. that the Govt. be forced to be good stewards of our money and only spend what is absolutely necessary


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

It reminds me of the scene from the 1937 movie "The Good Earth" based on Pearl S. Buck's Pulitzer winning novel of the same name.

During famine in China, a trouble-making uncle sees that his nephew has a fire in the hearth. He assumes that his nephew has food and goes into town to get support - How dare he hoard food while our children starve to death! Such an evil man! We need to go take it from him!

With pitchforks, scythes and torches, they storm the man's home determined to get food and to kill him if necessary. They burst through the door to find his wife trying to calm their starving baby. On the stove is a pot filled with bubbling mud and twigs. She tells them, it's warm and fills their bellies. They can have some if they wish.





JuliaAnn said:


> The previous post made me think of something... any comrades raiding our home expecting steak, seafood, gourmet cheeses and wine, delicacies and expensive tid-bits from the wealthy (as they might percieve us to be) are going to be sorely disappointed.... when they whip open my freezer to find... deer burger, frozen tomatoes, peppers and onions, some hot dogs, etc. etc.
> 
> Quote "Are you going to be the judge? Are you going to redistribute their wealth? Will you pull the lever, trigger, or injector to punish them"
> 
> ...


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

PyroDon said:


> you dont consider the 40s50s and 60s solid growth?
> they produced the largest middle class in the nations history, private home ownership , huge industrial wealth .


No.. these generations produced the largest group of folks who belong to what I call the Entitlement Class...they are a group of folks who believe that they are *entitled *to everything from a good job, good healthcare, a home of their own, two cars,and every new fancy appliance that will make life easier and every little gadget to make life more "cool"..always trying to make things a little bit easier and a lot more comfortable...never wanting or knowing how to feel a bit of a struggle..never thinking they should be "uncomfortable" ..Ac and or Heat at the first less than ambient temp... water at the faucet always..power at a flip of a switch...they demand and feel completely entitled to a "decent" standard of living, a retirement, healthcare without wanting to exert the energy that it should require to obtain that level of comfort...it goes on and on..never with a concern of how unsustainable it all is...it is unsustainable and it will end..and after all the crying and whining..maybe just maybe people will again understand what it is to have to work for basic survival..what large amount of expended energy that it takes to be _comfortable_..and just maybe they will realize that they are not entitled to anything that they do not struggle to obtain...


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

I see you have part of the story Don,

You left out the part of how high taxes to industry and demands of organized unions caused the price of everything to go up and inflation was out of control. Eventually, industry was force out of this country to where labor and taxes are cheaper.

By the 80s, they put a band-aid on the problem by cutting taxes on business and the wealthy so that the economy could be rescued. That gave us over 20 years where we could have fixed the problem, but alas we did not.

But the rich still pay more per dollar than the poor. The poor on the other hand pay a higher ratio of taxes because they have less income. If I make 20,000 and pay $1,000 on taxes. I still have less money to live on than someone who makes $20 Mil and pays $1 million in taxes under a flat tax.

Instead, we've gone the route of having that rich guy pay $10 million in taxes, while the little guy still pays $1,000.00.

If I were the upper income guy, I would not say that my $10 mil tax bill is fair. But the other $10 mil in my pocket makes it easier to swallow. But I would take offense to someone saying my $10 mil tax is less than my fair share. Especially if they were waving banners, pitchforks and torches outside my door.

We need to meet in middle ground and balance this out. 

But I believe the age of moderation is gone.

Fear has caused us to take extreme views and polarized our politics.

I do believe this fear is causing the wage gap to increase. In a sense, the rich are the ultimate preppers. they want to save money, so they hire people on the cheap. is it a fair wage. Well, the poor guy working seems to think so. He had every right to ask for more money or look elsewhere. If no one was willing to do the job, then maybe he might get that higher wage. 

His idea of a fare wage might be $60 an hour to haul manure. but some poor guy living in a trailer park might think $4 an hour is more than a fair wage to do that job.

Next thing you know, the $60 guy is demanding that laws be put in place to prevent trailer trash from taking away jobs that should be his. All he wants is a fair living wage.

So the gap increases. The rich guy is prepping for the hard times by saving any way he can (and enjoying the fruits of his or her labor along the way). The poor guys is looking to take any job he can. The only problem is, there's 100 other guys looking to do the same thing!

Maybe population control is the solution? I wouldn't go as far as what the Chinese had done. But reducing benefits on families with more than 2 kids might help the economy catch up to a "right-sized" population. Right now, labor is cheap. But economists are projecting a shortage of labor in about 5-10 years.




PyroDon said:


> I believe I said Flat tax on everyone did I not .
> theres a mis conception that the poor dont pay taxes .
> They pay far more of their income in sales tax than the rich or middle class do
> they may not presently be paying federal taxes but it ia taken out of their pay check even if they do get it back at the end of the year.
> ...


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Actually bill you blame the high taxes for driving industry out, 
I on the other hand see that the tax breaks and lower taxes allowed industry to move out.
There is absolutely No Doubt that the tax breaks during the 2000-2008 encouraged industry to move by making it far more profitable , I watched the same tax breaks in the 1980s which produced the exact same effect but not to the degree of those in 2001
That exidace started with Nixon and has continued .

As for ALGs claim of producing an entitlement mentality .
well I realize Entitlements Is the New rightwing catch phrase But its rather funny it only applies to workers yet the businesses get more hand outs . 
SSI is not an Entitlement its a government secured retirement plan which would be fully solvent had the thieves in congress not stolen from (much the same way major corps have robbed from the retirement they promised employees who paid into funds) 
Medicare is much the same the people paid into the fund . Your claiming they arent entitled to the money they put in . 
The rights chosen to call these entitlements so foolish people would ignore that those who paid in are actually owed .
I do however agree that there is a generation that seems to believe they are owed something they havent earned , But its not those or the 40s 50s and 60s its their children and grand children


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

IMHO (and I recognize that others will disagree) any government program that the populace is required to pay into is a tax, regardless of what the bureaucrats tell you you're going to get back from it.

Some are good ideas, badly administered. Some are bad ideas that, somehow, succeed (often on a very local level) because there are a few people working in government jobs who still believe they're accountable to the public. Most are just ways to increase government revenues in order to pay for the top-heavy administration, which then require MORE bodies to administer "new" programs, which require more lucrative money-collecting schemes, which....

I'm not a tin-foil enthusiast, but I do recognize a slippery slope when I see one.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

I think it's always noticed more when the economy gets bad. People tend to base their happiness and security on finances; however, I think it's growing worst because there is this 'entitlement' issue nowadays. It's the reason personal debt is so high nowadays.

It's a strange thing though. Although there are exceptions, the millionaires look down on the lesser insisting it's their own fault they don't have what they have. The middle class get angry because they think the millionaire has too much; yet treats the lower class in the same way they are treated by the millionaires. The poor just want to be able to eat and have a roof over their heads. 

I don't think there is much worst than having financial worries, but it's just a matter of trading one worry in for another. We've all got something! It's just that sometimes we get basking in our own problems to don't see or remember what it was like for those who have less.

If a millionaire works hard and earns a trillion dollars, he's entitled to it. That's free enterprise and capitalism. The same goes all the way down to the janitor or maid who works for the millionaire. Any honest work should be an accomplishment and our focus. We tend, however, to make it about the money -- which is _why_ we have so many _dishonest_ people! 

People are getting so they think if someone has more than they do, their either entitled to part of it, or want to bring down and cause suffering to those who have more.

Not to toss in Bible here, but it's just a good example of how long this has been going on. It's why Jesus said we're to be content with whatever circumstances we're in. It's really the only solution to not having a "us versus them" type thing.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I guess some of us like to think of the world as this happy little place where if only the rich could be made to SHARE then everything would be great.

I, however, do not hold that view. I have seen poverty. I have seen the people who live in poverty. I have seen wealth and riches. I have seen wealthy people. And almost all of them, rich and poor, will _strip you down to the bones_ in a heartbeat.

The only thing that keeps them from doing it now is that they fear punishment.


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## poorboy (Apr 15, 2006)

All I know is we are now paying more or as much for the cheap china crap than we did for U.S. made stuff just a few years ago! We have let the greedy business men in this country steal a larger part of the pie than is decent.:nono:
New World Odor means the average U.S. Joe is gonna have to learn to live like the third world lower class so the big dogs can get even fatter.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Okay folks - a wide variety of outlooks as to why.

Bottom line. You better be setting a pantry aside and be alert to those that think what you have, should be theirs - cause they didn't set a pantry aside for bad times.
(referring to those that don't want to, that want to spend on fun - rather than those that have really limited funds.)


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## poorboy (Apr 15, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> Okay folks - a wide variety of outlooks as to why.
> 
> Bottom line. You better be setting a pantry aside and be alert to those that think what you have, should be theirs - cause they didn't set a pantry aside for bad times.
> (referring to those that don't want to, that want to spend on fun - rather than those that have really limited funds.)


Sorry for going kinda OT...You sum it up very well...We all need to prep,prep,prep.......
and keep a watchout fer the grasshoppers!:lookout:


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

EXACTLY! But there's no longer even a fear of punishment!

In my POV, we've built society to be free of the fears we once had - a noble gesture.. at first.

Fear of wild animals - kill all the wolves and pour concrete over the forests
Fear of starvation - flood the fields with chemicals and fertilizers to produce 10x more than we used to (so what if the rivers get poisoned)

So now we live in a soft, easy environment where we can walk literally anywhere without fear. On the way to Afghanistan, we were briefed about the murder rate there and how we had to be careful. I said "That's the same murder rate as downtown SE Washington DC! And I go there for lunch!"

But I hate to say it. We need fear to govern our morals and behavior.

We used to fear the wrath of God. To some, the old man has not been around much lately. 

Then we fear prison. But now it's not so bad - three square meals a day, a nice cot, free medicare, a library, the internet and a gym to pass the time. You even get to socialize all day with like-minded people.

Fear of execution if we break our morale mandates? Some would say, kilo of heroin, a gun and a fast car. Heck! I can do more living in a week than some people do in a lifetime! Wooohoo! That lethal injection is humane and painless isn't it?

So there will be a point where those who did not take time to prep will have nothing to fear, nothing to lose, but to take from someone else who did because they feel they deserve it.




Ernie said:


> I guess some of us like to think of the world as this happy little place where if only the rich could be made to SHARE then everything would be great.
> 
> I, however, do not hold that view. I have seen poverty. I have seen the people who live in poverty. I have seen wealth and riches. I have seen wealthy people. And almost all of them, rich and poor, will _strip you down to the bones_ in a heartbeat.
> 
> The only thing that keeps them from doing it now is that they fear punishment.


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

One of dad's favorite sayings was "you can give everyone a million dollars and at the end of the day, some will still have it, some will have more and some will have none and think you should give them more of yours."


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## Mrs. Weasly (Jul 31, 2009)

Trixters_muse said:


> I do get flack from some of my friends about living a country mouse lifestyle in a city mouse world and then there are some friends who tell me I am "lucky" to have fresh citrus and fresh veggies, I'm "lucky" to have most of my debt paid off. Luck has nothing to do with it.


Well said! I had a friend say much the same thing to me recently--the first time, she said I was lucky to not HAVE to choose between staying home with kids and working...to which I replied that every choice we've made in the last 12 years--smaller house w/garage sale furniture, old car, no vacations, no new clothes etc--means I can stay home. In a more recent conversation, she told me I was lucky to have such nice kids. Because clearly, our parenting skills have nothing to do with it! Sheesh!

Where has all our personal responsibility gone? Why is it "fate" or "luck" that determines how well (or poorly) we live? Frankly, I want some credit for the hard work and sound decisions we've made over the years, just as I am willing to take responsibility for what hasn't gone well.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

"I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have."

Thomas Jefferson


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

For me to worry about how much another person has,over what I want or have is a waste of time. Not to mention it spells out exactly who one is. Envy is Evil.


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