# Do you really think you could Grow/Raise all your food?



## mooman (May 19, 2008)

How many really think they can grow/raise enough calories to keep their family alive in the long term?

It worries me a little. I have about a 1/3 acre garden, 14 laying hens, and will be raising some turkeys this year but.............It still does not seem like I produce anywhere near enough food to really keep myself alive long term (the fact that I still have a grocery budget proves it). Dont' get me wrong, I won't be the first to starve, but without some outside supply of grain or rice I think I would eventually be as dead as the zonbies

I could probably increase the garden to a full acre but even then.......

How about you guys


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## 0nmp0 (Apr 17, 2008)

Nope, not a chance. I try to store everything I _need_ and grow what I _want_.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Sure, But your diet would be very different. What it will consist of kinda depends too. For instance here in NEPA. Trying to grow enough vegetable protein would be a huge challenge. Even grains are difficult due to the mostly wet weather we get. But we could raise live stock that can eat the grass that grows in great abundance and eat the products of the livestock. You will have to look to the past to find what the people ate. 

Tho, some will find that it took 1000's of acres to support one family before subsidy and electric.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2009)

I'd get mighty tired of corn and sweet potatoes, but if I just hadda I think I could.

But I'm not concerned with having to grow everything my family eats forever though. For a year or three if things really, really go bad possibly. Forever? No.

Because if it really came to that chances are very good we wouldn't be able to stay in place to grow it. Only the very most isolated would have any reasonable assurance they'd be able to do that.

.....Alan.


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## Pam6 (Apr 9, 2009)

0nmp0 said:


> Nope, not a chance. I try to store everything I _need_ and grow what I _want_.


Ditto!


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

I think the edge is going to come with foraging knowledge. Tho that will involve setting yourself up in a place with stuff to forage. Not miles of cornfields or asphalt.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

No, we couldn't survive forever with the food I have stored and the ability we have to grow more. We've got a big garden (1/2 acre), rabbits and chickens, but we'd eventually be out of wheat, beans and rice. Even with wild plants, hunting, trapping, fishing and focusing more on the garden I don't think we could do it. But, I'm not going to worry about it - we're doing the best we can and won't give up without a fight.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

No, but for the situation we are in right now with the economy. We are doing the best we can. We live on a small lot and have turned the grass into veggie beds. We have some things we can sell to cover the cost of what we raise. So it sure does bring the food bill down.
Maybe I am looking at things through rose colored glasses, but we are doing better than some right now. I think because we saw what was coming and the good folks from this forum supplied alot of information on how to deal with it.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Could I grow enough calories? Yes I already do. Can I grow enough variety? What's enough? I like raisin toast but grapes are not really a great crop here unles you dedicate your life to them. I don't plan on raising variety I plan on doing what I do and trading with others. If you don't have a big land base plan on specializing in something valuable. In a world ending senerio I'd trade a lamb for a variety of herbs.


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## Sharon (May 11, 2002)

Sure, unless something catastrophic happened with weather, land, etc. There would definitely be a lot of foods I'd miss, but survive on the garden, absolutely, and most likely I would be more healthy overall too. I just wouldn't eat meat (I was a vegetarian for 8 years; no big deal); I don't think it would be worth it to me to raise all of my own grains, etc., to feed the animals. I'd miss coffee and pasta the most.


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## AnnieinBC (Mar 23, 2007)

We do, all our meat, veggies and fruit....

Still gotta go to the store for flour, sugar, oil, tho


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

heh. Those of you who say you raise your own meat ...poultry, beef, goat, cow, whatever....how would you raise that meat if you weren't able to buy feed from the feed store? That's part of the equation on the "can you raise all your own food". Sit down and figure out how much acreage it takes to grow enough feed for cattle or goats or swine over winter. (you have to keep them over winter if you want new babies in the spring to raise for butchering in the fall).

I do NOT believe that a single farmer can sustain his family alone. It takes a "village". Yes, you can hunt all your meat or fish. Chickens could likely forage well enough. but for the long term,....it's just not practical. Even the hermit trappers of the 1800s came down out of the mountains once a year to trade for sugar, tobacco, salt....

WIHH...all due respect, but your grandfather probably did not do it on his own. He would have traded for feed, or salt, or cloth for the family...Take eggs into the local store to trade for bolts of cloth or salt so they could preserve the meats....just sayin'


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

What kind of sheep?


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Wisconsin Ann said:


> heh. Those of you who say you raise your own meat ...poultry, beef, goat, cow, whatever....how would you raise that meat if you weren't able to buy feed from the feed store? That's part of the equation on the "can you raise all your own food". Sit down and figure out how much acreage it takes to grow enough feed for cattle or goats or swine over winter. (you have to keep them over winter if you want new babies in the spring to raise for butchering in the fall).
> 
> I do NOT believe that a single farmer can sustain his family alone. It takes a "village". Yes, you can hunt all your meat or fish. Chickens could likely forage well enough. but for the long term,....it's just not practical. Even the hermit trappers of the 1800s came down out of the mountains once a year to trade for sugar, tobacco, salt....
> 
> WIHH...all due respect, but your grandfather probably did not do it on his own. He would have traded for feed, or salt, or cloth for the family...Take eggs into the local store to trade for bolts of cloth or salt so they could preserve the meats....just sayin'



He one could easily keep enough stock to maintain themselves... But as I said it would be a very limited diet. For instance here we get 4 cuttings of hay in a good season, 3 if it's too wet all the time. 50" of rain makes for some quick grass growth. 

But winters are cold....


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

The problem with the villiage concept is most people raise none of their food.


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## justmyluk (Apr 28, 2005)

Go to a website http://www.pathtofreedom.com Then go to youtube and pull up "path to freedom" and look at some of thier videos.

The father and three grown kids live on 1/5th of an acre and the cultivate 1/10th of an acre. They raised 6000 lbs of food last year and are shooting for 10,000 lbs this year. All from raised beds and they use all natural compost, no store bought fertalizers. They also raise goats and chickens for eggs and milk and they do it in a houseing development in Pasadina Calif. Again, all this is done on 1/10th of an acre...

Anything is possible if you put your mind to it...


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## Stephen in SOKY (Jun 6, 2006)

I haven't had a bit of luck getting jar lids to germinate.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

I think I could here if I absolutely had to but I wouldn't like it at all. No coffee (won't produce for a couple more years), cocoa, eventual loss of wheat. On the upside, I'm on a tidally influenced river that gets plenty fish all year, crabs, ducks, herons, geese to prey upon. Some fruits, lots of high calorie veggies. But beef? Nope. Nor any red meat.

As for the village concept, when you are talking *all* your needs, you do need that village with each person focusing more on one area than another, filling a need by many. Unless you want to wear tanned hides only, that is. 

It's been said many times, on here even, no person can get as expert in all possible areas and have the time to perform them on their own. From what sociological studies say, the ideal group size is actually 25-35 persons of all ages. 

So a village, but a very small one....or lots of kids.  In that way, all encompassing, then no I couldn't survive indefinitely. The first time I got sick it would be over.


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

OH! Oh! warning! Minor thread hijack!

Hay and growing fast...I believe I read somewhere, in one of my forays into the subject, that when hay grows quickly because of extremely wet weather, that it has less nutrition. Now...if it's balanced with added nutrients in the soil, maybe that would make a difference. 

I'm going to see if I can get an answer from the Dairy Forage Hay guy.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

*Absolutely*

It is totally possible assuming there isn't a zombie issue and one is in the proper location. (ie:rural area with rain and decent growing season)

You don't need canning lids or even a lot of variety in your diet. If you think about it we depend on lots of foods that are not native nor natural to our environments.

It would take a mountain of work and you would be lean but it can be done. Best option is to learn what ancient native cultures in your area used to do and practice it. For example Native Americans in my area dried pumpkin in 1/4 thick slices for use over winter. Fish smokes nicely, no need for salt. houses can be made of sod or hide...........etc. etc. etc.

Sure life may not be glamorous, you may have to settle for a shorter lifespan but it CAN be done. Man wason this rock a long time before industrialization. You just have to go beyond comfort levels and self imposed boundaries.


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## amelia (May 3, 2003)

A bit off topic, but I'm intrigued by Wind In Her Hair's post--

WIHH, was your grandfather heading up a family at the age of 12? Sounds like a good story, I'd love to hear.


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## Bruenor (Oct 2, 2008)

Sure, I just won't be eating much.

Seriously though, I know that I alone could not. But with my family (parents, brothers, and a cousin or two) I'm confident that we could. More mouths to feed, but more hands to do the work.


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## diane (May 4, 2002)

We raised everything we ate here, including the feed for our stock for years and years. We bought coffee and cocoa. It is hard work, but it sure can be done. The only reason either of us worked off farm was for health insurance and equipment repair parts. People do subsistance existance all over the world. Do I want to do that at my age..........of course not. Could I? Yes.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I personally don't think 1/3 of an acre would be survivable, in the long run... good thing though, if you 'really' needed to raise everything, post-TEOTW, there'd be plenty of arable land available.

I do believe I could grow or harvest enough to survive... if other humans disappeared completely from the equation, life would indeed be very easy. (competition for wild game) As it stands, the orchard provides fruit, the garden provides vegetables, the lake provides fish, the goats and chickens provide milk and protein. Over time, I've chosen breeds that can forage for their own meals.

Now if I have to deal with zombies or the golden horde swarming like locusts thru my woods and homestead, well no, I probably couldn't survive, unless I acquired a taste for long pork...:1pig:


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Wind in Her Hair said:


> Of course, if my family's life depended on the success of our gardening and livestock rearing, I'd be sleeping in the garden or out with the livestock everynight with a shotgun.


I'd be sleeping in the garden too! Might do a little of that this year anyways, especially in the weeks before the orchards fruit start ripening... some squirrels, *****, and possums will feel my wrath....


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## woodsman (Dec 8, 2008)

stanb999 said:


> Sure, But your diet would be very different. What it will consist of kinda depends too. For instance here in NEPA. Trying to grow enough vegetable protein would be a huge challenge. Even grains are difficult due to the mostly wet weather we get. But we could raise live stock that can eat the grass that grows in great abundance and eat the products of the livestock. You will have to look to the past to find what the people ate.
> 
> Tho, some will find that it took 1000's of acres to support one family before subsidy and electric.


Whoa! Thousands of acres?

There are actually Mennonites, Amish and others who live without electricity or subsidies and they do fine on smallholdings.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

We are currently growing about 80% of our food.

We are working on the remaining 20%.

We do beleive that we can do it, with great surplus.

We know many friends where we live who are already doing it.


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## cowboy joe (Sep 14, 2003)

We'll get by if it's only me & the kids. Somehow I doubt that will be the case with my parents getting up there in age. Hope to be able to barter some of the excess from the orchards for items such as grain.


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## Riverrat (Oct 14, 2008)

With growing, foraging, hunting and fishing, yes I think I could. It would be a vastly different diet then we are used to, but I think it could be done. Would be great if a barter system can be worked out, give a larger variety in what you would have to eat. We currently have close to an acre in garden and are starting a couple of 5' by 15' box gardens this year.


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

As we are set up now, no way! I could do all the veggies we wanted, but I have no fruit on our lot (planning to add some next spring) and we aren't allowed animals (house is in town). But in an emergency situation I'm sure we would be in much better shape them most. City might drop some of it rules and allow chickens and such. I'm sure I could work out a way to raise rabbits in our basement if we had too.

If we are ever able to sell our house in town and get a bit of land we'd be better off...but after 2 1/2 years on the market, it's not selling so we'll move back into it when we come home this fall and just move forward from there. It has a good basement for storage....


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I'm at the very edge of it right now. I can keep my whole family alive, thriving, and even eating pretty well. The problem is I don't have room to produce what I need to keep the animals alive and thriving. And they are what we depend on!

That's sort of the trap I got into here. I worked on getting us all the food we needed, but I didn't consider the food the animals we depend on would need. So now I've been working towards fixing that oversight. I can do it in barter so far, and that may just be what I have to rely on.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

woodsman said:


> Whoa! Thousands of acres?
> 
> There are actually Mennonites, Amish and others who live without electricity or subsidies and they do fine on smallholdings.


Are those Mennonites on range land? Where it takes in excess of 40 acres to rear a single head of cattle during a "good" year? Nope. They are in areas with ample rain and soil. That is why I said it depends on how the early peoples survived before the modern era in the area you live. My post was a simple example only. One thing to consider as well is those religious farmers use modern pesticides and chemical fertilizer. Just like any modern farm. They just get by in the modern era the "old fashioned" way. They work hard and save. Which is an admirable quality.


P.S. They can and do use machines to pump water for instance. They even use air powered hand tools... Just not electric ones. So they are in some ways as dependent on modern equipment as some of the rest of us are. In some cases on this forum more so. Tho, I don't live "primitive" by any stretch of the word myself. I love my gadgets.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Wisconsin Ann said:


> OH! Oh! warning! Minor thread hijack!
> 
> Hay and growing fast...I believe I read somewhere, in one of my forays into the subject, that when hay grows quickly because of extremely wet weather, that it has less nutrition. Now...if it's balanced with added nutrients in the soil, maybe that would make a difference.
> 
> I'm going to see if I can get an answer from the Dairy Forage Hay guy.


Maybe... But it is the only way hay grows here. The key I figure to it is keeping the pastures mixed with native grasses. Don't make a "clean" stand of a single type. Then the stock can get the mix of nutrition they need from the various types of growth. But this wouldn't and doesn't work in large scale modern production because they wish to know exactly the nutrition of a particular feed so they can add the other ingredients as needed for maximum production. So modern agriculture has very different needs than a homestead. But it really doesn't matter because I wouldn't be asking and don't ask them to now to produce huge quantities of produce. The key is not pushing the stock to produce extreme excess. A good family milker or two would provide a moderate to small amount of milk by todays standards, but would be a great excess for a farm family. When planning for your future you must learn to except less produce with less inputs that will be available. At least this is the way I see it. The large excess of today is what is making the crash take place... No?



P.S. the issue with hay quality comes from heat the best I can tell.... We don't get heat. We are a cool wet mountain top. The highest temps are in the 80's at mid day with mornings in the 50's. Tho, generally it's not that HOT.


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## DW (May 10, 2002)

but not always. There are years here where grasshoppers are rampant and they eat everything! I also think we'd need a greenhouse...sometimes our growing season is too short. Wheat grows very well in Colorado.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

woodsman said:


> There are actually Mennonites, Amish and others who live without electricity or subsidies and they do fine on smallholdings.


But even Amish and Mennonites buy things they can't make - cloth, glass and metal kitchen items, cookstoves, eyeglasses, lanterns, kerosene, etc. Amish come about the closest to being self sufficient, but they can't grow everything they use either.


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

I think people would learn more to eat by the season...in late spring/summer/early fall, eat directly from the gardens with a few eggs thrown in. By mid-fall, have root crops including potatoes, onions, turnips and rutabaga, carrots, beets, winter squashes, etc. dug and stored enough to last the winter/early spring. Some greens will grow though part of the late fall/early winter with a little protection. In an unheated greenhouse greens can be harvested all year.
Chickens could forage a lot, plus some small grains and hay with seeds could be saved for some winter supplement, plus things like excess winter squashes, pumpkins, sunflowers for their feed. In late fall, cull excess chickens and can (as long as lids are available) so that feed over the winter is minimal. Also, store eggs in waterglass and/or use some of the oil/grease methods to preserve, plus the cooler winter weather would keep eggs for several weeks or a couple of months.
In the spring let a couple of the remaining chickens set on clutches for a new batch for summer use and for meat for later.
While it may be hard to grow and process grains, corn is a grain so it combined with beans (they grow dried beans in New England, so most people can do some types), will give the necessary amino acids necessary for protein.
If you've ever grown for market and/or a CSA, you have a pretty good idea how to get a quantity from a small area of land. I grow for 4-6 CSAs and that amount alone would be enough for my own use if I needed it. About 40 established fruit trees, plus blueberries, rhubarb, raspberries would keep me in fruit. Some varieties of apples will keep in a cool spot for 2-4 months over the late fall/winter.
I don't drink coffee, but love tea. I guess I'd resort to mint teas, which is easy to grow...but sugar??? I'd substitute maple syrup...many maples on the property. Flour and salt would be main problem areas...but barter would come into play...if others had a means to get them...otherwise, find substitutes.
I'm trying to get rice seed to experiment with...and have wheat, rye, barley, oat seed to grow. A lot of work, but...it's nice to eat.
The real hole in my plans is dairy...I want a dairy animal, but not the work involved along with everything else. At some point, it may be a good choice.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

anniew said:


> I think people would learn more to eat by the season...in late spring/summer/early fall, eat directly from the gardens with a few eggs thrown in. By mid-fall, have root crops including potatoes, onions, turnips and rutabaga, carrots, beets, winter squashes, etc. dug and stored enough to last the winter/early spring. Some greens will grow though part of the late fall/early winter with a little protection. In an unheated greenhouse greens can be harvested all year.
> Chickens could forage a lot, plus some small grains and hay with seeds could be saved for some winter supplement, plus things like excess winter squashes, pumpkins, sunflowers for their feed. In late fall, cull excess chickens and can (as long as lids are available) so that feed over the winter is minimal. Also, store eggs in waterglass and/or use some of the oil/grease methods to preserve, plus the cooler winter weather would keep eggs for several weeks or a couple of months.
> In the spring let a couple of the remaining chickens set on clutches for a new batch for summer use and for meat for later.
> While it may be hard to grow and process grains, corn is a grain so it combined with beans (they grow dried beans in New England, so most people can do some types), will give the necessary amino acids necessary for protein.
> ...


Annie... You grow rice and I'll grow milk. Then we trade. But we will have to work out who has to climb the mountain. 


Don't forget cabbage... Our's is still good and it was stored in the basement since it was picked in late October.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Wisconsin Ann said:


> Even the hermit trappers of the 1800s came down out of the mountains once a year to trade for sugar, tobacco, salt....


Last I knew, sugar/tobacco/salt, werent necessities but luxuries. What else were the hermit trappers going to spend their collected pelts on? Besides the tools of their trade. Gold is rather meaningless if you are spending rest of your life that way.

If I had to, could live off hickory nuts, acorns, poke salad, persimmons, squirrel, and anything else I could scavenge or raise. Cant be totally dependent on any one thing or even a garden. Fun, no, but one does what one has to, taste sensation is low on list of priorities. I'd be one busy guy picking nuts and acorns, and anything else halfway edible in season though. In such circumstances every waking moment is about gathering and storing food, there is no leisure time, that only comes with reliable abundance. Thus the grasshopper and the ant fable. You are industrious or steal enough from your industrious neighbor or you die.

As to growing canning lids, canning technology itself only been available last couple centuries. Without freezers and canning and such, you dried food to store or fermented it into something that was stable long term like pickles and saurkraut and cheese. If you live near a source of salt you salt meat though thats just a variation on drying.


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## jessepona (Sep 7, 2005)

HermitJohn said:


> You are industrious or *steal enough from your industrious neighbor or you die*.


This is what worries me. I think we could grow and gather enough calories, especially in a mast year (we have many oaks on our property). But keeping it from prying hands, that's another matter. We have guns and know how to use them, but I couldn't keep watch 24/7, even if we had enough ammo to last years and years. 

Neighbors that are trusty would be worth their weight in gold, I think.


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## woodsman (Dec 8, 2008)

stanb999 said:


> Are those Mennonites on range land? Where it takes in excess of 40 acres to rear a single head of cattle during a "good" year? Nope. They are in areas with ample rain and soil. That is why I said it depends on how the early peoples survived before the modern era in the area you live. My post was a simple example only. One thing to consider as well is those religious farmers use modern pesticides and chemical fertilizer. Just like any modern farm. They just get by in the modern era the "old fashioned" way. They work hard and save. Which is an admirable quality.
> 
> 
> P.S. They can and do use machines to pump water for instance. They even use air powered hand tools... Just not electric ones. So they are in some ways as dependent on modern equipment as some of the rest of us are. In some cases on this forum more so. Tho, I don't live "primitive" by any stretch of the word myself. I love my gadgets.


It's easier to go back to candles from kerosene lamps than from lightbulbs I suppose, but you're right - when the land is not very suitable for agriculture due to lack of water or other factors it takes a lot of it to make do.

When one plans to feed their family of the plot of land a lot of thought should go into getting the right land to do it. Getting a huge tract of land means a necessity to run a lot of expensive machinery on no less expensive fuel, bank loans, etc. Everything hanging in a balance on one bad year when one can lose it all.


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

At my current home, I could never be totally sufficient. Water table's 650 feet deep. Summer temps in the shade are 110+ on a routine basis, and 90+ at night. Nearest town's 15 miles away.

You'd need transportation (gas, maintenance) and electricity (for water) if nothing else.

In a less than SHTF scenario I could probably grow _most_ of my vegetables, with enough left over to trade for other necessities, if I had to. 
But that would mean relying on trade, and assuming other people had what I needed, and would assume that we'd still have electricity for the community well. (There's eight of us on the well.)

BTW, on my short list of things that I suspect would be very valuable trade goods? Vegetable starts and vegetable seeds. A case of peat pellets might come very much in handy if you're trying to eke out a living.

("I'll swap you 100 tomato plants for X pounds of salt ...")

My friends eyes light up _now_ when I pass out my extra veggie starts (I always start more than I need, just in case germination sucks) or extra seeds.


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## Homesteadwi5 (Mar 16, 2008)

wyld thang said:


> I think the edge is going to come with foraging knowledge. Tho that will involve setting yourself up in a place with stuff to forage. Not miles of cornfields or asphalt.


Agreed,We have a pretty big garden and raise some meat,but we live in the woods, so most of out meat,fsh wild greens etc. are found and gathered and not bought.I am worried about the state of the counry but not so much how we'll eat.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

stanb999 said:


> Are those Mennonites on range land? Where it takes in excess of 40 acres to rear a single head of cattle during a "good" year? Nope. They are in areas with ample rain and soil. ...


But even on this forum many people are flocking to arid range land, insisting that it will support a herd and gardens.

You NEED water, even the soil part can be fixed after you have water.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

ET1 SS said:


> But even on this forum many people are flocking to arid range land, insisting that it will support a herd and gardens.
> 
> You NEED water, even the soil part can be fixed after you have water.


This is true...


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## mooman (May 19, 2008)

Good thread, thanks folks. If I might play devils advocate however.

I saw alot of people mention wild game and fish. If food gets scarce I would imagine that game would be all but extinct in a matter of weeks. Think how many lowbrow ******** there are in this world who have never pulled a weed or picked a tomatoe in thier life but hunt everything!!!!! The first thing those people will do is harvest all wild game at an unstainable rate.

Just a thought. Thanks for the replies


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## Mutti (Sep 7, 2002)

We've grown all our food but coffee,salt,cocoa in the past....just two people on 20 acres. Put up our hay,grew feed corn,oats and wheat,raised chickens,goats,hogs and butchered them ourselves. Canned and froze everything. Gleaned from roadsides for fruit...amazing what is out there unharvested. Had small money needs that DH covered with roofing,cement work. Yes,it can be done. But do I want to again at age 61? Not really. But still could and we stay as self-reliant as we can be just because it is the lifestyle we chose years ago.

But you still have to keep in mind that when everyone is hungry the deer won't last long and the rivers will be fished to death and someone will be in your orchard/garden/barn looking to steal. Most people don't have the faintest idea how to feed themselves without a store. Hunting/fishing is a fun time with the guys once a year. A garden is a few tomato plants that die by August. Food storage is a couple of cans of Campbells on the shelf. I'm an optimistic kind of person but when I saw the inhumanity of Katrina I knew what people were willing to do to each other to save their own skins. 

We planned our move to this very rural area to have room to produce for ourselves and kids. Routinely barter our honey for what we need...yes,even at the hardware store. We know many people with various skills in the area who could ramp up their production if need be. Still,our closest neighbors are good people but none prepared for any hard times and several of them are in their 80's without close family. How can you help them all? DEE


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## MattPA (Apr 9, 2009)

Asparagus
raspberries
Strawberries
Peach tree
Pear tree
Apricot tree
Plum tree
3 apple tries
2 cherry trees
1 blackberry tree
Hazelnut tree
black walnut tree
chesnut tree
almond tree
Pecan tree
Horseradish

Garden contains
corn
cucumbers
green peppers
banana peppers
spinach
tomatoes
potatoes
pumpkins
cantalope
squash
beans

Maybe not enough to live off of but enough to survive the extinction of a large number of people. I.E Shotgun

Also, a running stream with only a few feet to hit water. My biggest problem is heavy rain but just built a greenhouse. I also have a rainbarrel to catch drinking water and know how to purify.

I could also dig worns and some roots. Amazing whats around that most people do not know. I learned to identify which plant are poisonous. It will be amazing to see all those that eat Hemlock and the like.

Oh, and I live on only 1 acre but will be buying at least 20 - 40 within the next five years I think. Probably in WV. Or Upper PA. The biggest problem we'll have is lack of heat during winter. But hope to install a coal/wood furnace and/ passive heat. If we purchase the land it will be wooded so we have our own supply. We are seriously considering solar as Columbia Gas is raising their prices 40.6% and Met-ed will be raising theirs by 30%.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

mooman said:


> Good thread, thanks folks. If I might play devils advocate however.
> 
> I saw alot of people mention wild game and fish. If food gets scarce I would imagine that game would be all but extinct in a matter of weeks. Think how many lowbrow ******** there are in this world who have never pulled a weed or picked a tomatoe in thier life but hunt everything!!!!! The first thing those people will do is harvest all wild game at an unstainable rate.
> 
> Just a thought. Thanks for the replies


True, to a point. THough I think there are far fewer successful hunters out there than imagined. Logisitically I think livestock will be poached first--closer to town, easy to shoot. 

BUT there's just more land out west to get lost in. I would expect more "unsustainable" harvest in the east(more people spread out densely). WHere I'm at the terrain gets very difficult. THere is access on logging roads, but you def need a 4wd and a chainsaw, and even then there's landslides and downed trees. SO just saying hunting will be more difficult and less successful than one would think, and there will be plenty of areas where the animals will go. 

Not to mention the "lowbrow" ******** you speak of are also generally lazy--the kind that shoot from the road in a truck. Two steps into the woods are they are beat. Get my drift? I find the smarter more resourceful ******** have a more healthy respect for conservation.

I agree fishing would be in danger of wipeout, it already is in "normal" harvest.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

MattPA said:


> Oh, and I live on only 1 acre but will be buying at least 20 - 40 within the next five years I think. Probably in WV. Or Upper PA. The biggest problem we'll have is lack of heat during winter. But hope to install a coal/wood furnace and/ passive heat. If we purchase the land it will be wooded so we have our own supply. We are seriously considering solar as Columbia Gas is raising their prices 40.6% and Met-ed will be raising theirs by 30%.


Worry not about natural gas prices in rural PA. you won't have it available.


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

I think that the best prepping someone my age can do:


The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures:
He leadeth me beside the still waters.

He restoreth my soul: He leadeth me in the
paths of righteousness for His name's sake.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the
shadow of death; I will fear no evil: for Thou
art with me; Thy rod and Thy staff they
comfort me.

Thou preparest a table before me in the
presence of mine enemies: Thou anointest
my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all
the days of my life; and I will dwell in the
house of the Lord for ever.

psalm 23 - bible - psalm of david


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Cygnet said:


> At my current home, I could never be totally sufficient. Water table's 650 feet deep. Summer temps in the shade are 110+ on a routine basis, and 90+ at night. Nearest town's 15 miles away.



I wonder how long the Apaches did it in even worse conditions.....the latter of which included being _constantly_ on the run from the US government.....

For those who may be unaware, Tom Brown, Jr. has multiple books out addressing everything from basic survival to thriving in a variety of wilderness settings. 

It's all a matter of perspective, expectation, preference and critical thinking OUTside the box. What you are certain is impossible, to you, is.


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

The resident tribe here are the Gila, not the Apache. The water table was MUCH higher then, the rivers weren't dammed, and their farm fields were farther north, where they could take advantage of winter floods. (I suspect the area I'm in might have been used for hunting and little else.)

In addition to a lot of squash and beans, they also ate a lot of things that I'd be less than willing to consume ... 

Prehistorically, many of Arizona's tribes were also migratory. They'd spend the winters in the deserts and the summers in the high country. 

Given that the reason the historic Apache were on the run most of the time was because the government was after them for raiding, I'm willing to bet they got a lot of their provisions from raiding. (Note: I'm fairly sympathetic with those historic Native Americans. LOL. But I'm pretty sure, given the choice between eating someone's livestock or eating bugs, they'd pick a nice steak any day of the week.)


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## sunshinytraci (Oct 20, 2007)

I think you could do it on enough land, however, your diet will be radically different, and you will be working your tail-end off like never before. I sometimes daydream about really going all the way but I really like to have way too much recreation time. Working off the homestead or taking a vacation during the summer - forget it. You'll be weeding and canning your head off. I love those things, but to be perfectly honest, I mostly play at them. If I did them to the extreme, I think I might start resenting them so I would only go that route if I absolutely HAD too. That said, those people who do manage to produce most of the things they need from their homestead garner my highest respect and admiration.


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## frontiergal (Oct 3, 2002)

Hum what did people do before stores? People eat to much anyways.
I'm pretty sure you can grow what you need


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

jessepona said:


> This is what worries me. I think we could grow and gather enough calories, especially in a mast year (we have many oaks on our property). But keeping it from prying hands, that's another matter. We have guns and know how to use them, but I couldn't keep watch 24/7, even if we had enough ammo to last years and years.
> 
> Neighbors that are trusty would be worth their weight in gold, I think.


And the neighbors that aren't trusty would be worth their share of lead... currently, we have a local armistice around here... certain individuals know it's not worth 'borrowing' from me. Prying hands, and deadweight, would find living hard, if darn near impossible.

Last fall, our mast crop disappeared with a hurricane that thrashed the oak trees outer limbs.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

sunshinytraci said:


> I think you could do it on enough land, however, your diet will be radically different, and you will be working your tail-end off like never before. ...



Different from what?


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## Staceyy (Jun 16, 2007)

Nope, I'm just starting out. Last year I was able to grow 3 cucumbers and a head of lettuce. I'd be dead after 1 day!


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

Staceyy said:


> Nope, I'm just starting out. Last year I was able to grow 3 cucumbers and a head of lettuce. I'd be dead after 1 day!


3 cucumbers? well, you did better than I did last year in the cucumber department.  I'd have traded you a couple of pounds of tomatoes for 1 cucumber!


*About grasses and nutrition:* Found the answer from a couple of research scientists at USDA Dairy Forage (these particular folks research how the most efficient ways to feed cattle, sheep, etc. and how to manage grasses/hays/legumes for the best nutrition). I was wrong about the fast growing...sort of. The most nutrition from any grass/legume is seen when the plant is short compared to it's stage of development. In plain English (which I required to understand the original language she used  ) If a plant is 12"tall and blooming, compared to the same variety that is 18" and blooming, the 12" tall plant will have more nutrition per kilo of product. The difference is in the stems/woodiness of the plant....plant has put more into the fiberous stem than it did into the leaves. 

All in all, valuable info for the farmer...(1st cut hay is almost always more nutritious per pound than 2nd or 3rd cut for example), but for the normal guy...what you have in the pasture is what you have


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## SuburbanHermett (Jan 12, 2009)

I think it can be done. Especially where you are OP. The best peaches I have ever had were from a roadside stand being sold by an older gentleman in the uplands of GA. The peaches were bigger than softballs. You had to hold them with 2 hands to eat them.They were so sweet and so juicey that rivers of juice were running down my arms and dripping off of my elbows...Ooops, got lost in a memory. And he had said that they were better in years past!

Okay, its probably been mentioned before but you need to get your hands on some books like: "Four Season Harvest" by Eliot Coleman, "Root Cellaring" by Mike and Nancy Bubel and the "Edible Landscaping" book by Rosalind Creasy. Those are a few off the top of my head but there are more. And do some rooting around in old! Agriculture books. Lots to be learned about storing grapes/apples/etc. and using sugar, honey and paraffin wax to preserve. Shoot, where you are located, I bet you could overwinter alot of things in the ground, like carrots.

I love colcannon. It would take a while to get sick of eating it. Add some chilies/spices/broth/bacon grease and its tastes different. Shoot, if I had to pick 2 things to live off of I would pick potatoes and milk. Everything you need to survive is right there. A little boring but ehh, you're alive. But add some greens and now there's some variety; cabbage, kale, collards, swiss chard. You can forage for dandilion and chicory. And roast the roots for a coffee substitute.

As for fodder, well, there is always kudzo.  

Oh, almost forgot: Zucchini  Plant some. You and your neighborhood wont go hungry! and if you miss picking one and it ends up big as a baseball bat...well, now you got yourself a weapon, lol!


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## SuburbanHermett (Jan 12, 2009)

rose2005 said:


> That was pure evil posting that, where am I supposed to get a peach this time of the morning to answer my craving?


Tee hee, sorry Rose! I wasn't trying to be bad to anyone, just trying to paint the picture in my head using words. Maybe some canned peaches? or fruit cocktail laying about? Your farm sounds fabulous! And you made your own Maple syrup!? Wow! You rock! :rock: Now there's a project for me to try in the future.

Both dandilion and chicory roots can be roasted for coffee substitutes. They can be mixed with coffee to extend what you have. I plan on roasting my own this year and seeing how hard/easy it is. 

Also on my to-do list is adding/expanding to my tea garden. I have a few mints (heard mice hate mints...so tempting to plant those all around the house). This year I am adding borage to the tea garden and hoping to get an actual tea plant. oh! and I sprouted some stevia plants for sugar substitute. Those will have to stay potted and kept as house plants.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Right or wrong, most folks around here appreciate the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th cuttings more than the first.... a lot less weeds and other matter to deal with. Of course, the latter cuttings are usually fertilized.

Personally, I take whatever hay I can get... the weedier the better... goats like the rougher hay more, but end up eating whatever they get.


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

Wind in Her Hair said:


> Its not beyond the realm of possibility -only beyond the realm of our limited comprehension.


Precisely. It's not that we can't do it, it's that we can't do it and eat the way our society currently eats.

The wide variety of choices would not be possible, but growing enough calories for your family is possible, so long as you have a moderate climate and enough land. One might get sick of carrots, beans, cabbage and one kind of grain, but you can do it.


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## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

I've grown nearly all of our food before, and I'm pretty sure I can do it again, as long as we have water. Raising everything we need to live would be impossible on only one acre, though.

Kathleen


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

On a fertile acre you can easily feed a family of 6. You just have to be picky about what you plant. Potatoes are my crop of choice. 

Realistically though I do have other acres I use for grazing livestock and raising poultry.


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

Survive ...yes.

Thrive ... not really.

Maintain current lifestyle/diet/eating habits or trade for these things ... not a chance.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

In our current location, no. I don't have enough acreage to graze or grow food for all the stock.

In the right location with the right acreage, I could absolutely do it.

Especially here in Florida. With our growing season, we can keep _something_ growing just about year-'round.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

I'm rather surprised that a bunch of homesteaders are answering 'no way'. Of course you can! How do you think the American Indians managed to live so long before before the white man screwed every thing up; or how did the early mid-west pioneers do it before there were stores and transportation? You grew your own! 

The question is more, 'are you willing to do what it takes'? Few of us are nowadays. It's hard work with sometimes disappointing results. 

With regards to livestock feed, you have to bear in mind that you would choose entirely different breeds than most of us choose today. Years ago, you decided on a breed not for looks, taste, or ease of taking care of it; rather you chose a breed based on their foraging abilities, ones that require little grain, and are hardier.

If you had little land, you did goats rather than cows because it takes little land and little feed. As Rose said, they have a breed of sheep that doesn't require grain. There are hogs that can forage and don't require grain; they just don't have lean meat.

Self-sufficient lifestyles have always revolved around the weather and pest conditions. If there was a drought and you couldn't haul enough water; or had a bad bug infestation, the crops failed, things were sparse that year. You had livestock that lost weight and didn't produce as well. However, you managed to get buy with what had been prepped the years before.

You didn't prep just for 'this year'. When the crops were good, you put up every inch of a green bean or dried every single apple. Things weren't subject to 'expiration dates'. If the cucumbers were a flop that year, you did without pickles or cucumbers on your salad. It's kind of amazing though that most years, when you have a failure of one crop, another crop does amazingly well. It's nature's way maintaining survival.

The problem is, we are too use to eating too well. We all want a nice fat hen for fried chicken for one meal; instead of using a skinny chicken and making it last 2-3 meals using different cooking/recipe techniques. We want tender well marbled beef. We forget we don't even need beef, let alone tender beef. People also don't eat 'with the season' like they did years ago. A salad was only a spring meal. Squash wasn't for pies; it was the fall and winter staple -- as well as being livestock feed. If you had no salt, baking powder, etc. - you found alternative recipes not requiring those things. Check out some of the depression cook books. Amazing healthy meals with nothing!

We also want a different thing for every meal and don't want a repeat for 3 weeks. I remember as a kid when each day resulted in repeat chores and repeat meals. For example, Monday was wash day. Supper was chicken soup. Tuesday was bread making day. Supper was grilled cheese sandwiches; etc. etc.

You don't need big acreage for self-sufficiency. Read the Robinson's "Have More Plan". It's amazing what they did on very little land in the 40's. http://www.amazon.com/Have-More-Plan-Ed-Robinson/dp/0882660241


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## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

Ernie, I can pretty much feed us off the one acre we have; I think within a couple of years I should be able to raise all the feed for the chickens and rabbits, and maybe come close with the goats. When I said I couldn't raise everything we need to live on one acre, I was thinking of things like firewood, building materials, shoe leather, fiber for replacing worn-out clothing, and so on. You really do need more land in order to raise those things. I may be able to barter for some things, and can get firewood off government land with a permit (although I'll need to still be able to get fuel for my pickup), so in a sense would be able to extend the amount of land we are using, even if we don't own all of it. 

Kathleen


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

We probably grow about 80%+ of what we eat as it is on our place now. That includes the meat from the steers, feeder pigs, chickens and rabbits, but I have to buy most of the feed for them. With a little more acreage, I could raise nearly all the feed for the livestock.

If necessary I could forego the larger livestock and let the chickens free-range. We have game hens for broodies, so we could continuously replenish our chickens for eggs and meat.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

BlueJuniperFarm said:


> Ernie, I can pretty much feed us off the one acre we have; I think within a couple of years I should be able to raise all the feed for the chickens and rabbits, and maybe come close with the goats. When I said I couldn't raise everything we need to live on one acre, I was thinking of things like firewood, building materials, shoe leather, fiber for replacing worn-out clothing, and so on. You really do need more land in order to raise those things. I may be able to barter for some things, and can get firewood off government land with a permit (although I'll need to still be able to get fuel for my pickup), so in a sense would be able to extend the amount of land we are using, even if we don't own all of it.
> 
> Kathleen


Ah, true, but remember the purpose of this thread was about raising all of your own FOOD. Some other folks are the ones who brought in the foolishness of everything from smelting your own ore to making your own shoes. There are always people who like to try and point out the foolishness of being "self-sufficient" by mentioning that you can't be _entirely_ self-sufficient. I suspect it's a cover for their own laziness at not even trying.

Even the pioneers weren't completely self-sufficient. The rifles they took with them into the wilderness were made by gunsmiths elsewhere. They traded and bartered for coffee, clothing, or other items they wanted. All through history, few groups, even isolated ones, were completely self-sufficient. You can't be unless you're willing to wear a palm frond and live in a grass hut (which doesn't seem too bad to me most days). However if you supply your own basic needs, and produce a little extra of that to trade and barter, then you're going to be far better off than the average man.


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

Karen said:


> I'm rather surprised that a bunch of homesteaders are answering 'no way'. Of course you can! How do you think the American Indians managed to live so long before before the white man screwed every thing up; or how did the early mid-west pioneers do it before there were stores and transportation? You grew your own!
> 
> The question is more, 'are you willing to do what it takes'? Few of us are nowadays. It's hard work with sometimes disappointing results.


Most of my early life was spend on a subsistence level - I didn't know much difference and I liken it now to the early pioneers. Being from one of the "civilized" tribes I also know how the American Indians managed - but I'm of the age now that "no way" is my only choice. If I were in the "olden days" now - I would be led into the woods so as to not be a burden on the rest of the "family" - so, the question is "am I willing to do what it takes?" I think I am - I pray that I am prepared. I surely do not want to be a burden. Hard work ...? Well, my garden, fruit trees, chickens and geese are more like prayers and gathering strength than chores.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Karen said:


> I'm rather surprised that a bunch of homesteaders are answering 'no way'. Of course you can!


Well, that was my honest answer. We wouldn't give up without a fight, but hubby and I neither one have all the skills we'd need (or the livestock either) to be totally self sufficient at this point. Even the pioneers drove days to the nearest town to get salt, flour, cloth, tools, seed, or whatever they could afford or find.

The good thing is that most of us on this forum are more able to "make it" without outside help than most of the USA. And we learn something new every day.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I think quite a few of the Native American tribes were nomadic, following the game herds, having winter camps and summer camps.

I know for a fact that I couldn't maintain the current lifestyle, food-wise... as I sit here, munching on fresh poblano and cilantro salsa, and guacamole. I've raised poblanos and bit of cilantro, but avocado's won't grow here... Could 'grow' corn chips, in a roundabout way... I could get back to the groceries we had growing up, peas and cornbread pretty much every day of the week, with catfish, perch, squirrel, and a little deer for variety.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

texican said:


> I think quite a few of the Native American tribes were nomadic, following the game herds, having winter camps and summer camps.
> 
> I know for a fact that I couldn't maintain the current lifestyle, food-wise... as I sit here, munching on fresh poblano and cilantro salsa, and guacamole. I've raised poblanos and bit of cilantro, but avocado's won't grow here... Could 'grow' corn chips, in a roundabout way... I could get back to the groceries we had growing up, peas and cornbread pretty much every day of the week, with catfish, perch, squirrel, and a little deer for variety.


We have lived in Ct a few times, the last time one of the local Indian tribes had built a huge new museum. The 'Pequot' museum, a very nice facility.
Taking our children through it, one factoid of history that really hit me was that the Indian tribes of the North-East had only gotten agriculture within the last 40 years before the arrival of the European settlers.

Their growing of maize and squash had only been happening for one generation, which was why they were so eager to show the Europeans. They were still showing the wonder of crops to each other.

The Pequot museum has a room full of displays showing their estimated time-line of how the knowledge of crop farming spread from the South-West, moving tribe by tribe, East and North, to finally get to the North-East.

When European settlers got to North America, the idea of growing crops and being stationary was still a new idea and it had not entirely sunken into their culture yet.

This is something worth keeping in mind. the idea that native American Indian tribes grew their own food. Is a neat idea, but it is not factual. Unless your focused on recent history, after the introduction of farming methods down in Mexico. And it's movement up into North America.


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## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

Now THAT is interesting! I didn't know that the Indians in the Northeast had gotten agriculture that recently!

Kathleen


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

BlueJuniperFarm said:


> Now THAT is interesting! I didn't know that the Indians in the Northeast had gotten agriculture that recently!
> 
> Kathleen


According to their projected time-line it took roughly 200 years for the technology of farming to migrate from Mexico up to the North-East just in time to meet the Plymouth Colony.


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## Betho (Dec 27, 2006)

ok I'm bumping this thread instead of posting a new one.

If one were to assume that there were a mini-village of several families prepared to work together in an event of, well, whatever. Assume that each family has roughly 20-40 acres of their own land but will all work together to raise livestock, crops, etc.

OK actually I'm going to be a bit more specific. None of us live on the property yet but within the next 5 years most of us plan on migrating up there. We're trying to put together an extended "what if" plan, besides your normal preps that we have at our homes. 

One thing I'm trying to get a handle of is how much to anticipate needing to plant and grow. We're trying to kind of split up the tasks a bit and what I'm trying to work on is the agriculture bit of being able to not just survive, but be OK if civilization crashed or hyperinflation happened and we needed to produce our own food. 

I haven't been able to find a good source of information on how much to estimate that people would need if it was their SOLE source of food. Assuming of course I would build in some overage for trade/barter, I'm trying to find information on just exactly how much seed should we anticipate? It's hard because while I can easily tell you how many jars of jelly or canned pears or tomato sauce we go through in a year, that's not our SOLE source and would be an unrealistic number. I imagine I would use a lot more canned food if fresh food wasn't available in the stores, etc. If we had to rely on what we could grow ourselves, obviously we would go through MORE of it than we do now.

Anybody have anyplace I can look for some number estimates? We're going to start testing veggie varieties up at the property next season to see what will grow well up there but in the meantime I'd like to have an estimate of how much we'll need to grow (and therefore what we need to anticipate in terms of labor, how much storage space, what kind of storage, what kind of equipment would be needed, how many canning jars, etc).


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Naturally we could never provide everything that is available today, but I think we could survive and even thrive. 

Today we have foods imported from around the world. Instead of fresh produce year round, we'd have to learn to adjust to either canned or dehydrated versions, and whatever was stored in the root cellar. Most root veggies can be kept over the winter until the next years harvest. Even watermelon can be kept until Jan if you put a thick coat of wax on it.

We can replace sugar with either honey or stevia. Both are much healthier than sugar and sweeten better. Overall, I think most of us would come out the other side much healthier than when it starts. The physical work would improve our bodies along with eating much healthier foods.

Survival and thriving would depend on our ability to adapt to seasonal along with stored foods. We'd have to use the old methods of storage like dehydrating, canning, pickling, salting, smoking, etc. instead of freezing and refrigerating. Winter gardening is possible in my area with a little protection. The food would be just as good, probably better, but not as much variety.

As for animals feed. Most animals can survive on what grows wild. Cutting hay for them for the winter would be a big job (which is why families had lots of children back in the old days.) Small animals such as goats would be much easier to feed than cattle and horses. Southern farms would have the advantage of longer grazing season and shorter winter feeding. Just about anyone can grow mangles, which is a good all round animal feed. The majority of the animals would be butchered in the late fall or early winter so they wouldn't have to be fed. By only saving a few breeders of each type, it would make over wintering them much easier, but the need for protecting them much greater.

Overall, I think we would do just fine. In a year or two supply lines would start to move. People would be bringing in the necessities that we can't supply ourselves. To me the most important thing is to have enough of the things we can't grow to last until we could replenish them, which in my opinion includes a multi-year supply of open pollinated garden seed, the know how and proper tools to use them, along with prepared gardens. Some foods will come back every year (asparagus and others), some will self propagate if left to over winter. The learning curve should be completed before the need arises. 

Yep, I think most of us here would do ok.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

woodsman said:


> Whoa! Thousands of acres?
> 
> There are actually Mennonites, Amish and others who live without electricity or subsidies and they do fine on smallholdings.


funny thats why i keep seeing the amish at the grocery store , even thier life would change signifigantly , they depend on flower, sugar ,oil , propane also 
don't get me wrong they have a lot going for them but they to have modernized a bit , at least in that some of thier food comes from a grocery and they are users of propane and fule oil, community is probably the best thing they have going it probably wouldn't take them long to shed the few modern things they have grown accustom to.

squash , lots and lots of squash it is probably the most native crop to the upper midwest and lots and lots of potatoes one man can tend many acers of both in afew hours a day with a good hoe 

stew was the staple of our ancestors even my grandmother and great uncle talk about how the walls of the cellar were lines with plank shelves and jar after jar of canned stew or vennison and when you got to pruining season there was likely a deer to be had while pruning the orchards 


and apple sauce lots and lots of apple sauce 2-3 jars a week


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## groundhogII (Nov 6, 2008)

This thread reminds me of a non-fictional book I read about 10 years ago.Back in the 70's a survey crew in remote USSR came across a family of three or four people who had been living in complete isolation for about sixty years.This family had escaped into the wilderness during the Russian revolution in the early 1900's.They hadn't brought much with them when they left their home,but they did bring potatoes.They managed to survive all of those years.
So yes,it can be done.However,as someone else mentioned,having to additionally deal with zombies would make things much more difficult. 
Something I've noticed while reading on this forum.Don't most of us plan our preps for both short term and long term.We store stuff that would make our lives as normal as possible during a short term shtf.Like comfort foods,extra toilet paper,extra propane canisters.But we also plan for a more long term shtf with gardens, alternative cooking sources,guns and ammo,livestock,and homesteading skills.
This past spring when the H1N1 flu was in the news I asked myself if I was prepared right now to isolate my family for 6 months.No I wasn't.I was actually embarassed by my lack of preparation.I learned from this and am trying to do better.Part of which,is applying what I learn here on the forums.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Betho said:


> ...
> One thing I'm trying to get a handle of is how much to anticipate needing to plant and grow. We're trying to kind of split up the tasks a bit and what I'm trying to work on is the agriculture bit of being able to not just survive, but be OK if civilization crashed or hyperinflation happened and we needed to produce our own food.


There is no answer to your quest.

We have been on our homestead for 4 years.

We have chickens, goats, sheep, hogs, an orchard, raised beds and greenhouses.

Many things that we try, do not work the first year.

We try something, and we watch it fail. So we try again differently, and we hope to get some tiny production. And we try again.

Keep in mind that the early colonialists starved. Entire colonies were wiped out, because they assumed that they could walk off their ship, plant a garden and produce a harvest the first year.

There is no way to guess how much land you will need to produce a tonne of corn until you have grown corn and gotten it to produce mature ears.

I am not saying this as a complaint. We have lost a lot of livestock to diseases that we knew nothing about. We have learned a lot. We are still learning.

It is great to try and plan ahead. But keep in mind, that as best as you can plan for. It will not work, as you plan.

You need to get on your land, and begin working it.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Could I raise enough food for a year for my family - yes. Do I want to? No! I was just thinking of what an incredible amount of work it would take. It was a lot of work this week to can 50 pints of peaches and that isn't even one jar a week! I have the land, seeds, gas to run the generator to run the well, canning supplies to last a year or more, sugar, salt..... but do I have the oomph? Hopefully, I will never know!


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Callieslamb said:


> ... It was a lot of work this week to can 50 pints of peaches and that isn't even one jar a week! I have the land, seeds, gas to run the generator to run the well, canning supplies to last a year or more, sugar, salt..... but do I have the oomph? Hopefully, I will never know!


Do you have the proper tools for the work? I did 52 jars of apple pie filling and a dozen jars of applesauce in a short time with 1 helper. We used a hand cranked pealer/corer/slicer that had the apples worked up in about 45 minutes. I have 2 pressure canners and had them both going alternately. For the sauce I have a hand crank grinder that turned the slices into sauce in the blink of an eye. 

Having the tools designed for the job makes all the difference. If I had to peal those apples by hand, then core them and slice them, I would have never gotten them finished. I'd have ended up giving many of them away. 

Just for kicks DS got out the old style pestle and strainer and tried making some sauce with it. It worked, but it was a heck of a lot of work and took a very long time compared to the crank model.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

There's people on this forum that are doing it. They generate their own power, their well provides their own water, and their gardens and livestock provide all their food.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Wisconsin Ann said:


> ...
> 
> All in all, valuable info for the farmer...(1st cut hay is almost always more nutritious per pound than 2nd or 3rd cut for example), but for the normal guy...what you have in the pasture is what you have


Around here nobody wants the first cutting cause it wasn't cut on day 28. They claim the max nutrition is in the grass on day 28 so weather allowing, they cut every 28 days. 

My goats don't care if it was the first or last cutting, they enjoy it all.


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## Slugmar (May 26, 2008)

I would have to say yes but you'll probaly need about 40 acres for a family of 10 people.

I would also think alot of the stuff that goes to waste on an animal now days wouldnt.

but also to grow enough to keep care of your self and animals and for trade your going to need the work force to do it also.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Spinner, what type of grinder do you have? Oh, and yes I could grow enough for myself but not for my family. They need more variety. There is no way I would produce any dairy, meat or grains. Too much Indian and Romany blood in these veins.


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## NCLee (Aug 4, 2009)

Betho said:


> Anybody have anyplace I can look for some number estimates? We're going to start testing veggie varieties up at the property next season to see what will grow well up there but in the meantime I'd like to have an estimate of how much we'll need to grow (and therefore what we need to anticipate in terms of labor, how much storage space, what kind of storage, what kind of equipment would be needed, how many canning jars, etc).


Here's a starting point. There's a wealth of information on this site, including a food storage calculator. http://www.providentliving.org/channel/1,11677,1706-1,00.html

Opinion Post, FWIW........

What are the members of your group doing RIGHT NOW to prepare for the move to the property in a few years?

It takes time to learn how to can food for the pantry. It isn't enough to load up the U-Haul with canners and estimated quantities of jars, supplies, and a couple of copies of the Ball Blue Book. The knowledge and experience in using them needs to be on board, as well.

It's too late to start learning how to can when those vegetables in the garden should have been picked/processed yesterday. I taught myself how to pressure can. However, I did have the advantage of learning to water bath can from my Mom. Even with that background, it took me a while to become productive with my canning. I made mistakes. I did things the hardway because I hadn't learned the simple tips and techniques that made it easier.

People don't have to be on their land and growing a garden to learn how to process food for storage. Farmer's markets, road side produce stands, and grocery stores are all sources for produce to learn how to can, dehydrate, freeze, pickle, etc. Further, actually eating what's been stored, gives far more insight into the what/how much than relying on lists and estimates from others. Yes, they are good starting points, but most are based on the author's own circumstances, which can be quite different from the realities of another's homestead. For example, suppose you have people in your group that have food allergies or other medical conditions that can greatly affect the what/how much to store?

Using pork as another example. People often mention keeping hogs as another means of self-sufficiency. Does anyone in the group know how to castrate a hog, at the time it should be done. Does anyone in the group already know how to render lard? Or, to make sausage, cure hams, etc. As with canning, it takes time to master these skills. Even before you have pork on the hoof, there are ways to learn many of the skills needed. 

Just one example..... buy a dressed hog sold for pit BBQ. Use that to learn how to complete the butchering. To make sausage. To salt cure hams. To render lard. To smoke side meat. To pickle the feet. And so on.....

Next week someone in the group can be learning how to make soap from clarified grease and wood ashes. Or, plan to use the leftover oil from that turkey that's fried at Thanksgiving for soap. 

If planing to grow corn for food for both people and animals, someone in the group should already know how to use that hand cranked corn sheller that you picked up last week at a farm auction. It will be a lot harder, when the corn is ready to harvest, if everyone is standing around scratching their heads, while trying to figure out how to go from the stalk to a pan of fresh baked cornbread. 

My post is getting too long, so I'd better close. Make one more list. Every skill that's needed to suceed on the property. Cross out each item, as the skill is mastered before it becomes a matter of success or failure.

Hope this "opinion" is helpful in planning for the future.
Lee


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## virtualco (Feb 3, 2006)

I agree with 0nmp0. What I need I store. Being an urban dweller (density of 1,000 persons per square mile or more.) with an average sized lot (125' x 80') I grow what I buy the most of in the store. (fresh foods that is) Tomatoes, onions and peppers. I do have pineapple growing but that takes a long time. Reminds me, I need to get a banana tree in soon, the neighbors' always look and taste delicious. All of these are pretty cheap now. In a crunch would grow other veggies. I grew potatoes last winter and was a wash as far as cost/effort vs what I reaped. Potatoes are still very cheap to buy as are tomatoes, onions, and peppers.

Again being an urban dweller and thinking worst case stuff, my raised beds are close to the house as to not advertise I am growing something. I have plants on one side of house that shields my backyard.

So could I grow enough to keep me and wifey alive? This is border line with me. I have enough veggies seeds for my whole neighborhood for two growing seasons and hope to enlist them to grow their own and keep them from 'robbing' my garden.


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

Some of the very basic basics of survival gardening. Never plant all your seed the first time. Never eat your seed. Have enough seed for at least 2 years without a crop. Three years is better. When you plant never believe that you will get X amount of produce for X amount of seed or starts planted. Case in point; I planted a dent corn patch as a seed increase and trial for production from this space(15 by 15 feet.) Thinned the stand to 47 plants, well fertilized, properly spaced, bucketed water at need and kept weeded. I even went thru and shifted leaves that could have shielded silks from the falling pollen to ensure nice full ears. Time ,because of work ,got slim. I was not there to stop the insect predators; the stinkbugs and corn worms. Harvest had to be completed before full brown husk drydown because test ears were showing fungal problems brought on by insect attack and rain. Current count on ears harvested is only 38 with a few more left still too green. Of these 38 only 10 would be considered "perfect" ears. Most of these will be saved for seed ears. The rest show greater and lesser amounts of stinkbug damage. This grain will go to the chickens who won't care and I could eat it if need be. Since this damage does not affect the germ it could also be planted. The worst the stinkbugs do is leave a path for those tiny maggots that I believe become a grain beetle. I need to research this. Corn ear worm was limited to one for sure individual. Netting was used so no raccoons or deer.

Absolute bottom line. No book will save you. Hands on before you HAVE to succeed. Real survival is a full time job. If there is a possiblity of failure- plan for it! "Murphy was an optimist!" The weather will not cooperate, animals will find away to kill themselves and there will never be enough hands or hours in the day. On the optimistic side of the ledger..it was done before or we would not be here trying to do it again. bee


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

groundhogII said:


> This thread reminds me of a non-fictional book I read about 10 years ago.Back in the 70's a survey crew in remote USSR came across a family of three or four people who had been living in complete isolation for about sixty years.This family had escaped into the wilderness during the Russian revolution in the early 1900's.They hadn't brought much with them when they left their home,but they did bring potatoes.They managed to survive all of those years.


That sounds fascinating, do you know the name of the book? I am most curious


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## Mutti (Sep 7, 2002)

Actually in our hippie days we did grow/raise about 95% of our food. Prided ourselves on our Thanksgiving dinner one year..home raised turkey, 'taters,sweet taters,dressing from scratch,pumpkin pies from our own pumpkins, mint tea. The remaining 5% would be spices, chocolate,coffe that I'll don't plan to ever give up...did have lard from our pigs. But this 5% is pretty negotiable. Last years wheat experiment was doable, corn grows well here in MO and would like to try some barley. It would be alot more work but all of us who grow and preserve our own food know the great satisfaction we feel...and also the safe feeling you get. DEE


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

rose2005 said:


> You would be wise to consider everything in this post!
> 
> Don't wait till you are on the land. Learn now.
> 
> Rose


Come on Rose, You know all those country folks are simple. So what they do is simple too. :lookout:


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## Betho (Dec 27, 2006)

NCLee said:


> Here's a starting point. There's a wealth of information on this site, including a food storage calculator. http://www.providentliving.org/channel/1,11677,1706-1,00.html
> 
> Opinion Post, FWIW........
> 
> ...


Very good question! And very good feedback everyone... I really appreciate it.

To answer the question, most of us are doing what we are able. My parents are currently building their home and should be ready to move in next spring. THis year we were able to put in a well and got power and a phone line up there. Now that we have water up there, next spring we anticipate planting a small orchard and fencing it in against the deer. My parents will most likely begin with chickens for meat and eggs (and a Maremma guardian dog) and gradually increase the livestock as their expertise grows. They will also begin trials of what produce can grow well up there - IE testing out different types of potatoes, corn, tomatoes, etc. to see what would grow well so that we are prepared. Also of course figuring out the best way to keep the deer out of the veggies.

Individually as families we do our own preps. We went in together to buy one of the bigger AA pressure canners and have been using that for the last few years in group canning sessions. All of us know how to put up food using a waterbath and pressure canner. A couple of us are currently on the search for a good dehydrator so we can work on dehydrating food. For my specific family - we need to let my hubby finish school down here and then he'll try and find a job up there. In the meantime, I have been a soapmaker since I was 19, and also have taught myself how to make cheese. We know how to make yogurt and sourdough bread, and I am pretty good at cooking over an open fire (although I do want to learn to cook on a woodstove). I do a ton of research and practice things like primitive skills. I save heirloom seeds for my garden and trade for new varieties. All of us families are very frugal even though we don't all *need* to be. 

Other than that, I would have to say we don't have a whole bunch of livestock experience simply because none of us are in a position to have it at this point. Once we get up to the property we will slowly transition ourselves and learn these things. Although one person in the group is (will be) a licensed vet tech so I imagine she would be able to teach us a lot about medicating, castrating hogs, etc. And my parents have previously raised a few steers for meat, but that was quite a few years ago,

The rest of it is definitely still on the list. Everyone is kind of focusing on their area of expertise, so we have others looking at security aspects, others looking at livestock, etc. My area is mainly just the agriculture and what to expect if we were forced into a situation where we had to do everything to provide for ourselves, from seed to table. I chose this because I have a natural aptitude and interest in gardening/preservation/food production/cooking in general.

Essentially, I am stuck here in town while my DH finishes school and until we can get up to the property so for now, I am learning and planning as much as I can while keeping my little garden (I have about 165 sq feet of raised beds), supporting the family financially and of course raising our kids. I have a long list of things I want to do... for instance I have a whole cleaned salmon in the freezer that I intend to smoke... once I get a free moment to build a smoker. Many things on the list of projects to do and to learn. Another thing we plan on doing soon is building a wood-fired oven up at the property... I would like to have a nice one at my home when we build it and so making one for practice would be nice and then that's another method of cooking we can practice. We also have a neighbor who is an avid hunter and is going to help us get into it - and he does his own field dressing. One thing I will learn within the next year is how to hunt, kill, and dress an animal and also know uses for each part of the animal, even if it's not always necessary.

We've got a lot of time before we'll all be up there, so we are just looking to do the most efficient thing in terms of gathering experiences and making plans for when we do get up there. My mother and I are both "compulsive researchers" and so I am constantly figuring out and researching *something.*


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## groundhogII (Nov 6, 2008)

PhilJohnson said:


> That sounds fascinating, do you know the name of the book? I am most curious


Sorry,I can't remember the name of the book.I think I ordered it from Edward Hamilton.I searched there, no luck.I tried one google search,no luck with that either.


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## manygoatsnmore (Feb 12, 2005)

If I had to, yes, I could provide all our food from our chickens, goats, and garden. The variety would be less and the work would be much greater, but I have no doubt it could be done. If we ate the eggs instead of selling some of them, if we kept more of the goats in milk and ate most of the offspring, if we took the horse and goats out to forage on Weyerhaeuser land next to us, if we did some bartering of food for hay, if we expanded our wheat, barley, naked and regular oat plots, if we intensively canned, froze or dehydrated every single bit that came out of the garden and rationed it, rather than feasting on strawberries and raspberries in season, if we foraged for more of the blackcaps and wild blackberries that are so abundant around us, then, yes, we could feed ourselves totally. That is a lot of if's.

Would I have time to do that and work a full-time off-farm job, build needed outbuildings, fence and cross fence the rest of our land, etc, at the same time? I don't have enough time to do it all now, and I'm spending plenty at the grocery and feed store. If I was forced into having to produce 100% of our food at home, I don't know where I'd find the time to do all the rest. I guess I'd have to be much more organized and food focussed. 

I'm working now to make each part of the equation doable in less time, to become much more able to do all that needs doing, including being able to produce all our food at home. Once the fences are up, pasturing the livestock is much easier than having to stake them out to eat, and I can use irrigation, overseeding, and pasture rotation to increase the amount of feed value for my livestock. 

I grew a test plot of wheat in my main garden this year and got a fair harvest off it. Unfortunately, my wheat from the feed store turned out to be more than 50% barley, so I have to sort every stalk or seed head in order to get pure seed for next year. I'll still be buying a great deal of our wheat berries at the store over the next few years while I expand the grain plots. That's okay, as long as I have that time window to work on improving my growing techniques. 

This year we planted 5 different varieties of potatoes in the main garden, nearly all from seed potatoes left over from last year's harvest. They did very well - we've already harvested at least 50# of potatoes, and most of the crop is still in the ground growing. We also had plenty of leftover seed potatoes that I scattered out in the orchard and covered with hay/bedding from the barn - the plants are growing well and I'm hoping that means a good harvest there, too. 

With potatoes, milk, eggs, and some meat from the surplus goats and chickens, we'd be in good shape for basic nutrition, enough calories to survive. Add in rhubarb, raspberries, strawberries, blackberries and blueberries for fruit (the orchard isn't of bearing age yet), and whatever other vegies do well on any given year, and I think we'd have a good enough variety to provide us with the needed vitamins and minerals for a well balanced diet. We might not have all we want, but we would have all we need.


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## NCLee (Aug 4, 2009)

Betho, sounds like you're already well prepared. Big pat on the back to you and your family members. 

I know some people who "dream" of their Five Acres and Independence and talk about what they're going to do when they get the land. When I mention going ahead and doing what they can now to prepare for that move, the list of why they can't excuses is a long one. 

Sometimes I have to hold my tongue, when they show off their new what-ever-it-is. For less money, they could have bought a pressure canner, dehydrator, sewing machine or some other item(s) to help them actually suceed on their land. I think of the hours wasted playing video games, renting/watching movies on their new HD. 

So, it's indeed, a pleasure to hear of people, like you and your family, who are actually working towards their dream. Many wishes for success go out to you.

Lee


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## shellrow (Feb 8, 2007)

BUMP, I love this thread and want to hear more!

I am trying for our family to figure out the amount of chickens, ducks and rabbits we would need for our family for a year. We have RIR's, EE's and a few bantams that are great for eggs but now I want to get more into the meat production stage. We have Pekin Ducks for eggs (baking) but we would need to get an incubator for the eggs for more ducks for the freezer (right now only one hen out of 7 has gone broody and hatched any eggs). We are starting out small with everything. Right now we are deciding on what type of meat production birds to get and what type of rabbits to get for meat production. I am trying to research these two areas specifically for more information because they are small animals and would not take up as much space as larger producers. I hope that we can conquer these two this fall. Hopefully by the spring we will be more comfortable and have a place for some feeder pigs. If they are successful the next step would be for us to get a few dairy goats and then possibly graduate to some beef on the hoof like the feeder pigs.
Gardening wise we are at a complete loss right now. We moved here to this new place in May and had to leave our garden at the old place.  We now have a spot cleared for the fall garden it is just a matter of having time to get out there and get it tilled up. I am constantly on my Fiance about this. I am aiming for this to be done by next weekend (I just have to keep at him about it). I would get out there and do it myself but I am 35 weeks pregnant and I had a bit of an accident a week or so back so I have been put on light duty. We do have plenty of wild grape vines growing on the property that we have shored up and made a large trellis for. We also have wild plums growing in masses. We did have some wild blackberries growing but they got bushwhacked when the garden area was decided on. Step by step I hope that we can be successful at producing food for our own consumption.


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## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

This is a great thread, worth following.


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