# Heres the CCW challenge of the week



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

say your 80 year old aunt who is still mobile and in good health says I have been thinking about getting a CCL and carrying.

so you take her to the range she likes to shoot and has for some time shot a browning buck mark 22lr and a 22lr rifle.

she tries a few different guns a 6 inch barrel Gp100 with 38 special is doable recoil wise but much to large and heavy to carry
the browning hi-power 9mm is to much recoil for the old hands.
trying rifles because the other question was something for around the house 
she also tried a AR-15 but said to much recoil.
she has tried shotguns in the past all had to much recoil.

what ever it is it has to use available factory ammo for carry and practice it would be nice if the ammo cost wasn't overly expensive.

so what do you try next , perhaps 22lr in a package she is or becomes proficient with is better than nothing at all.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

A small Smith in 22lr might work. Doc has RA & MS and can handle and carry an S&W .38 M&P Bodyguard. She likes the built in laser. She's getting a Buckmark for practice since she can rack it easily. She has racked a micro 9mm. It's not something she can do regularly.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

I'd look at some of the 380 autos.
A 22 is "better than nothing" but I'd not make that a first choice.
A SIG P230 or P232 is small and has little recoil but offers more power and reliability than any small 22.

*Weight* 520 g (18.5 oz) [1]
*Length* 17 cm (6.6 in) [1]
*Barrel length* 9.1 cm (3.6 in) [1]
*Width* 3.0 cm (1.2 in) [1]
*Height* 12 cm (4.7 in) [1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_Sauer_P230

What she really needs is a "home" gun and a carry gun.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

my other thought is , I tried for the first time last week Mechanix M-pact gloves these are work gloves with a special foam sewn into parts of your hand that absorb more impact.

for one of the tests in the video about the foam they drop a steel ball on a sheet of glass with a traditional impact foam and this new formula on the regular foam it breaks the glass the same ball from the same distance with the new foam and it does not , it reminded me of those commercials for beds that you can have a glass of wine on one side and drop a bowling ball and the glass of wine on the other side of the bed doesn't spill because the foam isolates the impact.

I have to admit the video wasn't what sold me and I was looking for a good pair of washable work gloves that would give me the protection of leather but wouldn't be an issue to get wet and these had very good reviews and were only 2 dollars more than the ones without the impact protection.

I shot 2 stages of action pistol with them on , I had been wearing them to set up the stages , the target stands have splinters and bits of copper jacket stuck in them and are hard on the hands during set up , starting you stage bleeding is no fun and thought why not try shooting with them also to see if I could I am not recoil sensitive but I though wow , that seemed to cut the recoil in about half from already very manageable Glock 17 recoil.
it also increased grip because the material use in the gloves seems to have more traction than skin I could index and for finger rack the slide and where it was smooth not where there were serrations .
2 fingers to rack a G17 slide takes some strength but a lot less when your fingers are gripping and not slipping

ok I have to say getting used to the trigger with a glove on is a little weird but I spent some time on it dry fire training and it is getting better.

so my thought is to have her try a pair of these gloves and try some other 9mm pistols , the hi-power does have a high bore axis and that may not help. if gloves could make a 9mm or lighter weight 38 comfortable for training , in a high stress situation adrenaline will flow and training will take over and recoil will be hardly noticed.

327 federal with 32 h&r long ammo might work but they are not easy to find and ammo is not inexpensive or easy to find.

38 wad cutters might be an option but even that isn't a easy stop off and pick them up in town without having the gun shop bring you some in

and try some 380s

at least with the gloves and trying common guns your only out the price of gloves and ammo and the cloves can be used for gardening an such.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Wearing glove will help during practice, but aren't practical for an 80 year old woman to wear all the time.

Using two fingers to "slingshot" the slide isn't as easy as using the whole hand to hold the slide back while pushing the frame forward:







> 1. Grasp your gun with a dominant hand, with your trigger finger outside the trigger guard and with your non-dominant hand grasp the upper and rear end of the slide. Position your hand so the heel of your hand is nearest you with your other four fingers over the slide and grasping on the outer side. Not pinching it from the rear between your thumb and index finger. CAUTION: do not let your hand cover the ejection port as your hand can get severely pinched in it during the sliding action and blocking the ejection port can cause a jam.
> 
> Safety Note: As you grasp the slide, your trigger finger will naturally clasp as well, you must consciously prevent your finger from moving onto the trigger while you work the slide.
> 
> ...


http://thewellarmedwoman.com/Racking-The-Slide-Of-Your-Gun


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I normally use my whole hand but I was trying different things with the gloves on , I wasn't advocating teaching a two finger grasp.

nor is wearing gloves all he time practical 

I was thinking about compromises like dry fire train without gloves live fire train with gloves , and if you need the gun for an emergency you will be concentrating on the emergency and not the recoil.

she didn't drop the gun , she didn't not hit the target , she just said it was uncomfortable , and a few minutes of uncomfortable in an emergency isn't so bad as long as you can find a way to practice.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Hits with a .22lr or .22 mag are more effective than a miss. Even rat shot if close enough.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

22 mag revolver


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> 22 mag revolver


A single-six Ruger


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> 22 mag revolver





TripleD said:


> A single-six Ruger


Those would still fall into the "too large to carry" category.

They might work for a house gun, but I'd never recommend a rimfire or a single action for what is primarily a "self-defense" weapon.

If I was limited to a 22 LR handgun for home defense, I'd get a Ruger Charger with a Crimson Trace laser and some 25 round magazines.
http://rugerforum.net/ruger-charger/


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I have been thinking , having shot a fair number of racoon with a 22 revolver and having shot a few with a 9mm also now , a good hit from a 22 puts them down much faster than a less than ideal hit from a 9mm

I did a little looking and found this article https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/6/8/the-22-magnum-for-self-defense/

as to a single six , I think a point and click interface in a SD gun is important.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

for home defense a carbine is going to make a lot more sense along the same lines a 10/22 with 25rnd BX mag and CCI stingers
but I also think a 9mm carbine would not have to much recoil and would make a better option.

for a 22mag handgun to carry the Ruger LCR 22 mag with hornady critical defence seems like the best option going

not sure why ruger can't make the 8 round 22lr LCR with a 22 mag cylinder that would seem like a good choice 

although perhaps it is because with the CCI stingers you can get very close to 22 mag velocities in a short barrel now if only there was a flash suppressant in the stingers they are little fireballs.
the issue with a carry gun and 22lr is that the rebated bullets are not nearly as moisture resistant as other bullets that fit tight in the case but I guess if they all stil went bang in my trap line pistol after a week of being carried around they are likely to in a carry gun also


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> for a 22mag handgun to carry the Ruger LCR 22 mag with hornady critical defence seems like the best option going


That wouldn't be that much smaller than a 38 revolver which would greatly increase the power levels. 

A J-frame S&W and some rubber grips that cushion the back of the frame would be just as easy to handle.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

it isn't about smaller , if a full size hi-power with factory 115gr 9mm ammo is to much recoil for 80 some year old hands , a j-frame even with rubber grips is very likely to be also not that she shouldn't try renting one and trying it especially with the 110 gr hornady critical defense standard pressure 38spl in something like an SP101 with a little weight to it might make it manageable.


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## In The Woods (Apr 27, 2017)

Having a nasty case of RA I have been through this as far as a handgun.

I originally bought a Ruger SR22. After shooting a clip through it my wrists were useless for days. The biggest problem was muzzle lift as my wrists are weak to begin with. Then with some suggestions I tried a Ruger Mark IV 22. Recoil and muzzle lift was much better but the gun felt so out of balance in my hands. Top heavy if you will.

After a long discussion with a couple people in the know I changed tactics. They were telling me I needed some real mass in a handgun to ward off the muzzle lift problems - even to the point of suggesting a 1911 in .40 caliber. I was looking over the used counter one day in the shop and saw a very nice S&W M&P Pro 9mm (not the shield). Bought that and now I am in business as far as shooting. The heavier balanced gun made a world of difference for me.

But....it is not the easiest gun for concealed carry. So I then tried a Ruger LR38 revolver - I just like my revolvers. It is not as easy on me as the Pro 9 but tolerable. I now have a couple nice holsters - it makes for a very nice small concealed weapon for me.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> it isn't about smaller , if a full size hi-power with factory 115gr 9mm ammo is to much recoil for 80 some year old hands , a j-frame even with rubber grips is very likely to be also


I suspect it's not so much the actual recoil as it is the gun is just too large for her hands.
Improper fit will make perceived recoil greater.


I also noticed this from the American Rifleman article:


> So, on average, you can expect a .45 ACP to damage about 3.79 cubic inches of tissue and a 9 mm Luger to damage about 3 cubic inches of tissue.
> *The best .22 WMR loadings will damage less than 1 cubic inch of tissue.*


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I suspect it's not so much the actual recoil as it is the gun is just too large for her hands.
> Improper fit will make perceived recoil greater.
> 
> 
> I also noticed this from the American Rifleman article:


I saw that in the article also , it certainly wouldn't be my first choice but I have seen a few different studies on one shot stop percentage most handguns hover in the 35 to 45% one stop shot 
even the rifle and shotgun data only managed around 80% one shot stop.

it is all together possible that 35% of people give up just as a result of being shot once but the data suggests that being shot between 2 and 3 times stops a very high percentage of people even if the round is small.

we also have no good way of knowing if this data is accurate but I have seen similar studies with similar conclusions several times so there may be something to 35% of people just give up when shot once.
and that regardless of caliber between 24 and 35% of shots fired were fatal regardless of handgun caliber 
her is one of these studies , how accurate it is I don't know 

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Those would still fall into the "too large to carry" category.
> 
> They might work for a house gun, but I'd never recommend a rimfire or a single action for what is primarily a "self-defense" weapon.
> 
> ...


Take a gander at the charter arms pathfinder, S and W 351c, ruger LCR,It's no different than a 38 with a 2" barrel


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Take a gander at the charter arms pathfinder. It's *no different than a 38* with a 2" barrel


If it's no different in size, one would be better off with a 38.
All realistic "stopping power" studies show bigger is better.
Centerfire ammo also tends to have fewer misfires.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> If it's no different in size, one would be better off with a 38.
> All realistic "stopping power" studies show bigger is better.
> Centerfire ammo also tends to have fewer misfires.


I'm not arguing that but if recoil is the issue there are options. Studies also show well placed shots from small calibers do just as good as large calibers. Recoil won't be an issue at all should the time come to use it, it won't matter if it's a 22 or 500s and w, you won't notice. 

Is money a huge factor? Try a 5.7, it's centerfire holds 20+1 and a touch better from a pistol than 22mag.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

My wife settled with .380 Ruger mainly because most in the office have one, so there is always Ammo in a fire fight.

big rockpile


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

For the house how about one of those cute little semi carbines chambered in 9mm?
On a rifle like platform recoil should not be that bad.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Texaspredatorhu said:


> I'm not arguing that but if recoil is the issue there are options. Studies also show well placed shots from small calibers do just as good as large calibers. Recoil won't be an issue at all should the time come to use it, it won't matter if it's a 22 or 500s and w, you won't notice.
> 
> Is money a huge factor? Try a 5.7, it's centerfire holds 20+1 and a touch better from a pistol than 22mag.


money is definitely a factor both for the gun and recurring ammo cost 




JJ Grandits said:


> For the house how about one of those cute little semi carbines chambered in 9mm?
> On a rifle like platform recoil should not be that bad.


I was definitely thinking the same , the glock lower ARs in 9mm are coming down in price


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Or, paper an Uzi. LOL.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=695&category=Pistol&toggle=tp&breadcrumbseries=22P

10oz, tip-up loading, so you don't have to rack the slide. When shooting at someone, rarely does the guy being shot at consider the caliber and I've helped do the posts on more folks shot with a .22 than anything else.

Around the house:

https://www.marlinfirearms.com/rimfire/model-795/model-795

Another 22. Inexpensive, and dependable. Very light, fairly short and not front heavy. If her eyes aren't the best, put a red dot on it.

So...two gun battery, common ammunition, easy to load, negligible recoil. Yep, it's not a loudenblaster magnum, but it WILL get the job done, considering the needs of the person.


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