# Best Batteries



## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

We have a solar and micro hydro system at our house and have been using marine batteries as a battery bank. These are old (about 10 years old) and need to be upgraded. Would any of you experienced alternative energy gurus recommend anything else? We have looked into car batteries (which some say are better) and golf cart batteries which would required double the batteries because they are 6v versus 12v. What is your opinion is the best battery system to use? Can you provide links or a company we can contact? Thanks a million.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Marine batteries are not the best choice. Car batteries are an even worse choice.

You really should be looking at true deep cycle batteries.

One possibility that is popular among the alternative energy crowd is Trojan. The T-105 is a fairly popular golf cart battery and a good battery. Also, Trojan makes a couple of different flavors of a larger battery that's also popular among the alternative energy crowd, the L-16, also a good battery. 

If you want to go a bit farther, Surrette is a name you might wish to check out. They're even more expensive but not really when you look at life expectancy as they're noted as being quite long lived.

Hopefully you're not looking for a "bargain" because you pretty much get what you pay for and you pay for what you get when it comes to batteries. 

With enough money, a person could explore things like Lithium-ion batteries but I suspect few here have those kinds of resources. Those are the kinds of batteries you would find in one of the Tesla all electric vehicles and would very likely cost 10s of thousands of dollars to even consider.

Others will be better sources of company names.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

At what voltage and how many amp hour do you need?


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## Blackwolfe (Sep 9, 2009)

Lithium-ion batteries from Tesla cars' hhmmm if you could find one that has been wrecked and the batteries still good?????


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Astrid said:


> ...golf cart batteries which would required double the batteries because they are 6v versus 12v...


It would take less of them. Your marine batteries are likely 75Ah or 100AH batteries. While T-105 are 225 AH. 

Best battery is going be determined by how much power you need to store.

WWW


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Blackwolfe said:


> Lithium-ion batteries from Tesla cars' hhmmm if you could find one that has been wrecked and the batteries still good?????


If I won the lottery, I'd love to have a Tesla Model S, all decked out with their biggest and best battery. From what I understand, there was at least some talk about the battery, while still in the vehicle, being able to power a home but don't know of any actual examples of it being done. I don't have an exact figure but it has been estimated that a Tesla battery pack is around $30,000, probably way more than most homesteaders spend for their entire off grid power systems.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Car and marine batteries are the worst choices ..........
In that class Surrette is top dog for wet lead acid batteries.......

I do not think you are quite ready ($$$$$$$$$) for Hup or Absolyte AGM batteries.....


Hey you did say "best" batteries......................


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## electrodacus (Feb 26, 2015)

I use LiFePO4 for my offgrid house the batery has 3 years but just the last two where used offgrid.
But as other mentioned it depend on you type of use and how much energy you need to store.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

Not much Info provided to go on.

The next step up from the marine would probably be to go with some golf car batteries from sams/cosco abuse them for awhile learn from your mistakes then in a few years jump up to the good stuff.


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

With the hydro we don't really need to store much since it runs constantly. We are looking for best use of money and longevity. The Tesla battery is way out of our price range. We might need to rely on the solar more if we have a long dry spell in the summer, but for the most part, the micro hydro runs 24-7. We want the best quality battery that will last a long time, we are after longevity. We're willing to spend a little more per battery because we don't need that many.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

These have odd charge voltages but they appear to be an option..

http://ironedison.com/


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

12vman said:


> These have odd charge voltages but they appear to be an option..
> 
> http://ironedison.com/



Thanks for the link. I showed it to my husband and he is already making contact. I appreciate everyone's help.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Interesting thread and the IronEdison systems look pretty good but I am also surprised that no one has mentioned Balqon Energy Storage which use the Yttrium LiFePO4 cells. 

24 Volt Series:
ESS-24V, 18 kWhr SKU ESS-24V-18200 $8,150.00 
ESS-24V, 10 kWhr SKU ESS-24V-10400 $5,120.00 
ESS-24V, 4 kwhr SKU ESS-24V-4160 $2,485.00 
24V 24V-Energy-Storage

48 Volt Series:
ESS-48V, 36 kWhr SKU ESS-48V-36400 $15,450.00 
ESS-48V, 20 kWhr SKU ESS-48V-20800 $9,650.00 
ESS-48V, 16kWhr SKU ESS-48V-16640 $8,225.00 
ESS-48V, 8 kWhr SKU ESS-48V-8300 $4,510.00 
48V-Energy-Storage

Hope it helps by providing options...


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Does anyone know what batteries the telephone companies use in their central offices?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Use to be big Lead Calcium

But I bet they are switching to big AGM's


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Darren said:


> Does anyone know what batteries the telephone companies use in their central offices?


Yep. UPS style batteries made for them.

They are a poor choice for a solar system. Look at what they are designed to do:

Held on float for days on end.
Emergency service only when power goes out.
Used only until backup generator can kick in to provide continuous service.

Because of all that they only need to be good for 100 to 200 cycles and are built closer to a starting battery than a deep cycle.

Some people do pick them up to used use on there systems. The only ones that I have ever seen have any success is because the battery banjk is way oversized for there needs. They are only running on the top 5% of there capacity or less so very shallow cycles. Generally in gettting them all you're doing is saving the company from having to pay the disposal costs on them.

Here's a link to some of them http://www.interstatebatteries.com/powercare/stationary/telecom/batteries.aspx


WWW


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Thanks for that explanation of the telco batteries.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Look up Aquion. There's no such thing as "best" for all circumstances, but they make some that might suit you.


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## DWBayless (Jul 22, 2015)

I really like the idea of nickel-iron batteries, but those suckers are expensive. And I can't reconcile the claims of exceptionally long life with the life cycle chart in the manual from the manufacturer... The Chanhong units anyway. The NiFe cells produced by Encell in Florida (also sold by Iron Edison)are still fairly new to the market. their life cycle chart looks more positive.

If anyone here has experience with these batteries, I'd love to hear about it.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

If you look carefully at ROI, you did quite well with inexpensive marine batteries. (Ten years on relatively inexpensive batteries is awesome) With microhydro doing a nice fairly constant recharge within moments of any draw, those actually might be the most effective option. People with solar or more unstable sources of power need deep discharge capable systems much more than you.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Harry Chickpea said:


> If you look carefully at ROI, you did quite well with inexpensive marine batteries. (Ten years on relatively inexpensive batteries is awesome) With microhydro doing a nice fairly constant recharge within moments of any draw, those actually might be the most effective option. People with solar or more unstable sources of power need deep discharge capable systems much more than you.


Add regular desulphation and you might do better than that. In a mobile application batteries are subject to forces that will eventually destroy a structurally weak plate. In fixed usage, that doesn't apply.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Darren said:


> Add regular desulphation and you might do better than that. In a mobile application batteries are subject to forces that will eventually destroy a structurally weak plate. In fixed usage, that doesn't apply.


Sulfation is seldom a problem with microhydro systems. The batteries spend less time in a state of undercharge and more time in float mode so it just doesn't happen on a properly designed system. If it does happen they usually have other problems that need addressed and desulfation methods are ineffective.

WWW


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Just to get back on track. Trojan Industrial line of batteries have been outperforming Rolls-Surrette in tests. They are also cheaper.

WWW


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

wy_white_wolf said:


> Sulfation is seldom a problem with microhydro systems. The batteries spend less time in a state of undercharge and more time in float mode so it just doesn't happen on a properly designed system. If it does happen they usually have other problems that need addressed and desulfation methods are ineffective.
> 
> WWW


How do the batteries eventually die?


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Darren said:


> How do the batteries eventually die?


 Plate oxidation. Similar to rust. Buildup on the plates limits capacity and can eventually short out plates.


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## Molotov (Jul 23, 2015)

Anyone get the Tesla Powerwall battery? Is it all its hyped up to be?


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

wy_white_wolf said:


> Just to get back on track. Trojan Industrial line of batteries have been outperforming Rolls-Surrette in tests. They are also cheaper.
> 
> WWW


Interesting! And good to know. Thanks!


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

wy_white_wolf said:


> Plate oxidation. Similar to rust. Buildup on the plates limits capacity and can eventually short out plates.


That build up is sulphation. By reversing that periodically the life of the battery can be extended. By doing that you're driving the sulfur back into solution.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

No, Oxidation is on the other end of the charging/discharge cycle. Sulfation is accelerated by having the batteries undercharged to much. Oxidation is accelerated by overcharging the batteries or allowing the acid level to drop below the plate level and exposing them to air.

Both are happening all the time. Just depending on your system which is more prevalent. In a micro hydro system batteries spend less time in an undercharged state because you have 24/7 charging capabilities. Because of that they have very little sulfation on the plates and don't respond to the same desulfation techniques as PV systems.

Oxidation can not be reversed. It is a much slower process unless you expose the plates to air or drastically overcharge them.

WWW


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Having had a starter, alternator & battery business for over a decade,
And having been to three of the major manufacturers training programs,
And I've been off grid for a hair over 15 years,
I might be able to shed some light on this subject.

Automotive style batteries are 'Starting' batteries.
They are designed to be kept at full charge state,
And they are designed to convert chemical energy into electrical energy very quickly.
(A very fast recovery time so you can try to get the engine started quickly)

This are NOT designed to withstand low charge levels, which makes them very unsuitable for off grind use.

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There are 'Marine' and 'Deep Cycle Marine' batteries, there is a difference in the two.

A 'Marine' battery is designed to have the crap beat out of it and stay together.
The plates are usually 'Caged' both top and bottom so the pounding a boat gives it won't knock the plates loose,
They are also designed to be SLIGHTLY discharged and not damage them too much.
Boats often sit for long periods with radios, ect. turned on, and still have to start the boat,
While boat engines are often not as hard to start as an automotive engine at zero degrees.

'Deep Cycle Marine' is designed for things like trolling motors, to be discharged about 30 or 40% and still recover when charged.
Anytime a battery is discharged, it will be slightly damaged, but these are designed to reduce the damage done.

These are usually underpowered for 'Starting' batteries, simply because you don't try to start most boat engines in zero or -20 degree weather.

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A true deep cycle battery will be something like a golf cart battery,
Golf cart batteries are designed to take a bit of a beating, they will throw fairly high amperage for a long period of time,
And they can be discharged to about 40% and still recover.

Again, the LESS you discharge them _in banc _(bank), the longer they will last.

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'Solar' batteries are LIGHTER DUTY BUILT, they are NOT designed to be bounced around,
And they have MUCH larger plates/volume of electrolyte to support a longer lasting discharge cycle at reasonable amperage.

Since Solar batteries are still 'Specialty Items' they are VERY expensive per amp hour.

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Now, there is another group of batteries you might look into...

I started off with steel case 'Industrial' batteries from things like fork lifts.
These have a very large storage capacity, and they have a finite life span in a fork truck,
But there is still plenty of life left in them when they are 'Retired'.

Since they are considered 'Scrap', you can purchase them by 'Scrap Weight', and still use them for years.
They often take more charging, since they are partly damaged, but the reserve they will have and the maximum output they will throw when 'Everything' is turned on at once makes them attractive for the cost...

And remember, they sell for scrap weight when you are done with them!

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This is something I tell EVERYONE that will listen, but few do...

Batteries are EXPENSIVE, so take care of them!

NEVER, EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES PUT 'TAP' OR 'DRINKING' WATER IN THE BATTERIES!
The ONLY thing that should go into batteries is DISTILLED water, with chemicals and minerals removed!

This one thing will GREATLY increase the longevity of your batteries!

The next big deal is NOT to stack your batteries right on top of each other!
SPACE THEM APART! LEAVE THREE OR FOUR INCHES BETWEEN THEM!
This will allow the hot air to rise, cooling the batteries and increasing the longevity.

Batteries will live longest around 55 or so degrees, so setting the batteries in a water cooling bath is also a good idea,
But be careful about what you use in that water for 'Scum' control.
Stuff like bleach will attack the cases and connections, it can destroy the battery if it gets into the battery.

The next thing to be considered is CHARGING,
Most people want to charge LONG STRINGS of batteries from the same end of the batteires,
Both will reduce the battery life.

Battery strings should be charged with no more than 4 batteries in the string (6 volts, charging on a 24 volt controller),
While 12 volt batteries should be charged on 2 battery strings.

Charging should enter/exit the battery string ON OPPSITE ENDS,
The reasoning for this is, in a string, the FIRST battery sucks amperage, passes the remaining to the next battery,
Which sucks amperage, then passes what's left to the third battery,
Which sucks amperage, then passes virtually NOTHING to the fourth battery...
The third and fourth battery are CRONICALLY UNDERCHARGED which kills them very quickly...

By having positive on one end of the string, Negative on the other end of the string, the batteries charge MUCH more efficiently, and charge stays much more even between batteries in the same string.

Batteries should be POSITION ROTATED at about three to six month intervals.
Middle moved to the ends, ends moved to the middle, rear moved forward...
Again, this keeps the BATTERY STRING charging/discharging at the same rate, keeping the batteries at more or less the same amount of 'Wear' as they age.

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One of the single BIGGEST MISTAKES I see with battery strings,
People MIX & MATCH batteries, New & Old, Different Sizes, Different Types.

Every age, size, type of battery will require a different charging rate,
The battery that is WEAKEST will require more of a charge, and that charge will OVER CHARGE the other batteries that are in better shape...
Overcharging is VERY bad, just as bad for the battery as undercharging.

Test your batteries with an actual LOAD TESTER, divide your batteries into groups of the same age, capacity, size, type and the battery string will last much longer.

NEW BATTERIES should be paired with other new batteries of the same size, type.
Older batteries with life still left in them should be evaluated and paired with the same remaining capacity...

PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT BUYING/INSTALLING 'EXTRA' CHARGE CONTROLLERS for smaller strings making up the banc,
But charging batteries in smaller strings will make the batteries live MUCH longer,
And the power consumption for those extra charge controllers is very small.

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The next consideration most times is connections.
Poor connections are the WORST thing you can do to your 'System' as a whole.

Use a VIRGIN COPPER cable (not an alloy wire), and use TINNED connections if not stainless steel.

Get your connections UP out of the acid vapor and away from the creeping acid that comes up around the posts of EVERY battery...
Any connection laying down where the acid vapor can get down to it will corrode, causing resistance and reducing the efficiency of the system.

The ONLY connection I use at battery level is to the terminals of the battery,
Everything else is wired over the battery a couple of feet, getting it up and out of the acid vapor zone,
The charge controllers/charge status indicators are also wired HIGH, above the battery banc.

With ventilation, the acid vapor DOES NOT REACH, DOES NOT CLIMB THE WIRES to the sensitive connections and electronics.

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Wire Connections...

If you don't know what a lead/silver/tin 'Dip' is to 'Tin' the wire and terminals before installation, then look into it.
Bare, virgin copper exposed to just oxygen/moisture is a guaranteed failure over time,
Bare Copper exposed to acid vapor is a very short term failure waiting to happen...

The problem is, you might not notice the resistance in the system, and it will kill your batteries/inverter/switching/charge controller.
Acid will 'Creep' up a wire, corrode the copper INSIDE the insulation, and you have problems you can't even see.

The second issue is the quality of 'Pre Made' wires. These are about worthless...
Less than worthless since you spent money on them.

MECHANICAL CRIMP IS *NOT* AN ELECTRICAL CONNECTION!
It's just mechanically holding the terminal on the wire or cable.

An ELECTRICAL connection happens when you SOLDER the terminal onto the cable/wire.
Use a silver bearing ELECTRICAL solder (NO ACID CORE!),

Then protect that connection where the copper shows,
Personally, I use solder to 'Tin' the wire, 
Then use industrial heat shrink tubing with glue inside to seal out the acid/corrosives.

USE STAINLESS STEEL BOLTS!
Iron bolts rust INSTANTLY creating resistance and inducing corrosion deep inside the connection...
Stainless Steel bolts (actual 'Battery Bolts' & nuts) will keep that corrosion from starting in the first place...

Corrosion at the terminal WILL KEEP YOUR BATTERY FROM PROPERLY CHARGING!
It's simple mechanical principals here, no big mystery...
If the MUCH LOWER charging current wastes energy trying to blast through the corrosion, it's NOT reaching the batteries,
And the signal for more charging IS NOT reaching the charge controller.

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Just a few things I've learned along the way to an off grid system that has been up and running for 15 years... 
Hope some of it made sense, and maybe it will help you along the path to an RE system that is reliable...

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You might contact the manufacturers, New Castle, GNB, Douglas, ect. and see what you can buy 'Factory Blemished' batteries for directly from the factory.
This will depend on how many you need, a skid is where they will deal with most people.

Just remember to have FULL WARRANTY, just cosmetic blemishes, printed on the receipt just in case you have a failure.

Personally, I run factory blemished batteries, and I'll take damaged terminal batteries.
Pouring lead to repair a deformed terminal is time consuming for the factories,
But I can do it fairly easily on a small scale without issues.

I got my last batch for about 1/3 retail price, not counting the trip over to pick them up at the factory, shipping might be as much as the batteries since they are both hazardous materials and very heavy...

Most times you can have your purchase delivered to the local distribution warehouse and pick them up there much cheaper than you can have them delivered by commercial carrier.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Jeephammer has a tremendous amount of wisdom there.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

That post of JeepHammer's could be a sticky!


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Just the facts folks...

No rants about this or that, trying to stay on topic, but I do drift sometimes...

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I can't say enough about building your own cables.

Since cables are what delivers the charging TO the batteries,
And what delivers the battery power TO the inverter(s),
A good cable is an absolute MUST.

The 'Consumer' grade cables are crap, mostly 'Import', and I spent TWO YEARS battling cheap cables and their resulting issues.

'COMMERICAL' cables honestly aren't that much better...

When you are losing 20% of the battery 'POTENTIAL' to charging losses and to delivery losses to the inverter,
That's 20% MORE panels, charge controllers, inverters you have to buy just to DELIVER your power to the point of use...

Most of us have had that battery that is charged, a car starter that is working fine,
But that damned battery terminal on the end of the cable is keeping you from getting the vehicle started.

Imagine that on a 40 battery string! That's a BUNCH of energy you bought and paid for, but you don't get to use because the cables/corrosion is eating up your power before you can do ANYTHING with it!

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I finally broke down and purchased a roll of WELDING CABLE & TERMINALS, and started making my own.

After research and testing, 
('Testing' I mean burning up cables to see which one lasted longest without failure),
I found that WELDING CABLE made in the US is usually as close to PURE COPPER as you can get,
The higher the purity level, the less the cable heats up and wastes your power making heat.

VIRGIN COPPER means no alloys, no aluminum, no tin, no antimony, no cheap fillers that are electrical resistors when compared to virgin copper.

WELDING CABLE is FINE STRANDS, 
This means it is FLEXABLE, much easier to work with!

Fine strands SOLDER much better than heavy strands, so you can close up the air spaces that conduct corrosives up and into the cable bundle.

Fine strands also pack tighter, not as much air space, so you are getting MORE CONDUCTOR for the same size/wire gauge size cable.
More conductor means more power being moved.

And the INSULTATION on those welding cables is RUBBERIZED, and VERY TOUGH.
Welding cable is designed from the ground up to be dragged across concrete floors, over sharp edges, to come in contact with hot welds and survive, ect.

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Terminals CRIMPED onto a cable are NOT AN ELECTRICAL CONNECTION.
It's a MECHANICAL connection that has electrical conductivity for now...
But it IS GOING TO FIAL as an electrical connection at some point in the future.

You will find if you RESITANCE TEST a crimped connection,
Then test it again about every month,
That is BUILDS RESISTANCE at an alarming rate,
This means your solar panels, micro hydro, wind has to WORK HARDER to heat up that connection and get the same amount of charge to the batteries,
AND,
You are burning up battery storage (once charged) power on the way to the inverter,
You are passing the current INTO the battery, the resistance is wasting part of your current,
And you are passing current OUT of the battery to the inverter, and again, the resistance is wasting part of that...

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SOLDERING your crimped connection will give you a solid ELECTRICAL CONNECTION,
It will keep oxygen, moisture, acids, other corrosives OUT of the electrical connection,
Resistance will stay steady, and very LOW, exactly what you want your connections to do.

Moisture and corrosives (oxygen) will creep into ANY AIR SPACE and attack your terminals/cables.
Just a fact of physics on planet earth, and you deal with it or it will deal with your connections...

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BARE COPPER AND BATTERY CONNECTIONS DO NOT GET ALONG!

Battery acid is PARTICULARLY CORROSIVE to copper, it's an electro-chemical process, basic physics that acid and copper react with each other, you can NOT change that law of nature.

YOU CAN,
Tin the copper with solder, buy tin coated terminals, you can buy cadmium plated copper terminals, you can use spray on protectors, you can use stainless steel connectors, ect. to keep copper OUT of direct contact with the battery acid..
This will make your terminals last MUCH longer...

Some people go to extremes, they silver 'Tin' the battery terminals and the cable terminals.
Silver is VERY stable, and acid is very slow to eat up the sliver.
MELTING SILVER takes a very high temperature, and the 'Tinning' process can be very dangerous, and it's ALWAYS a pain in the butt to do.
I've tried it, wasn't worth the effort for me, but if you come up with an idea that works easier then I'd LOVE to hear about it!...

I use corrosion resistant terminals, solder them SOLIDLY to the copper conductors,
Then use ENVIORNMENTAL PROTECTION as an added layer of protection.
INDUSTRAL HEAT SHRINK TUBING has a glue inside it, and that glue takes a low yield nuclear strike to get it off once it cools!
Seals up ALL the air spaces, places for acid to creep into the connections, 
So the connections last a good, long time!

One 'TIP' here,
Leave about 3" or 4" to about 6" of extra cable on your battery runs,
This will give you room to replace the TERMINAL without replacing the entire EXPENSIVE cable when the terminal finally does fail...
Cut out ALL the corrosion, attach new terminal, and you are off to the races again without replacing that expensive copper, the terminals on the other end, taking down wiring looms, ect.
Not just expensive parts, but saves work at the same time...

USE ELECTRICAL SOLDER!
I've seen way too many people use 'Plumbing' solder,
OR they use an acid base 'Flux' when soldering terminals!
This introduces the acids directly to the copper, and failure is imminent, usually just a few weeks away...

ROSIN core 'Electrical' solder is the way to go!
I use a 'Silver Content' or 'Silver Bearing' solder (Low Temp, Flows REALLY good at lower temperature),
The silver content will rise to the surface of the connection, and it sticks to the copper before the lead/tin/ect. content of the solder.

This is an extremely good connection when silver makes the contact,
And the silver that rises will add a layer of protection to the connection that is tougher for the acids/corrosives to eat through.

My earliest silver bearing solder joints are about 12 years old and show no signs of giving up yet, no increase in resistance (Which I write on the cable jacket when they get tested),
So I'm pretty happy with over a decade of service without a failure, when failures used to be 3 to 6 months apart with 'Off The Shelf' cables.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

NOW, SOME WIRING TIPS...

*THIS IS THE BROWN & SHARP SCALE FOR CABLE/CONDUCTOR SIZING FOR DC (Direct Current) WIRING!*

Most of the wire/cable conductor charts you will run into are for AC (Alternating Current),
This is a HUGE MISTAKE!

Your solar, most micro hydro or wind machines will produce in DC, 
Your batteries are DC,

Your inverters run on DC,

And there is a BIG DIFFERENCE in conductor sizing for DC compared to AC!

USE THE DC SCALE!

http://www.civilianjeep.info/Wiring/B&Sscale01.gif

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Don't be fooled by the 'Jeep' references, Winches on Jeeps take a HUGE amount of DC amperage, and the connections are under the worst possible conditions with water, mud, road salt, ect.
The only thing harder on common battery connections are big trucks (Semi Trucks) that constantly coat the terminals in road salt and never get proper maintenance.

A big truck store is an EXCELLENT place to get a reasonable price on the terminals shown in the pictures.

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*THEN NEXT BIG MISTAKE I SEE A BUNCH OF IS LONG RUNS OF WIRE CONDUCTING DC!*

Direct Current DOES NOT push through conductors very well!
The reason the power grid uses AC is AC pushes through conductors VERY WELL and will travel for miles.

DC likes SHORT runs of wire, 
There is a reason you mount the panels on the roof of the house,
OR,
You mount the INVERTER near the panels...

You take the DC and convert it into AC for the long runs.
DC, short runs, AC for longer runs...
Keep the panels close to the batteries/inverter, and you will reap MUCH more power from those panels/batteries,

Let the AC with the 'Long Legs' do the long runs to wherever you want the 'House Power' to show up at...

FOR INSTANCE,
Moving the batteries/inverter right behind my panels,
Then converting to AC through the inverter, running AC to the house,
The system became 15% more efficient.

That's 15% more solar panels, batteries I didn't have to buy,
And the wiring to the house could be SMALLER & CHEAPER than if I'd tried to run DC amperage.
Amperage takes BIG, EXPENSIVE cables, 
While VOLTAGE takes much smaller, cheaper cables...


-----------------------------------------------

BATTERIES!

*FIRST, NOTHING AT THE BATTERY CONNECTION BUT THE BATTERY CONNECTION!*

We have all seen guys wire in some little ring terminal to the battery clamp bolt,
Stick things in the battery terminal connection...
DO NOT DO THIS!.

First of all, you are introducing another type of metal into the connection,
Causing an electro-chemical process you didn't anticipate!

That little crimp on 'Cheapie' terminal end... You have NO IDEA what it's made out of or what it's corrosion resistance is,
And you are putting it into direct contact with the acid 'Creep' that comes up around ALL BATTERY TERMIAL LUGS...

Second, the more crap you stack on that battery terminal, the more air space, stuff for the acid to creep up and attack,
And once corrosion gets started, it will attack EVERYTHING around it.
Corrosion never sleeps, so you should use precautions/anti-corrosion that doesn't sleep either...

Control the materials that come into contact with the terminal and you will have a big head start controlling the corrosion...

------------------------

The next thing is to LIMIT THE NUMBER OF CONNECTIONS TO A BARE MINIMUM.

When the cable comes off the battery, it should make as direct a route to the inverter as possible...

You will usually have at least ONE BREAK in the cable for combining battery strings, charge controllers, ect.

REMEMBER THAT CAR BATTERY ANALOGY?
The BATTERY TERMINAL is corroded and failed,
The connections on the OTHER END of those battery cables are fine, and you can connect there to the other end of the cables without the corrosion issues...

The 'Break' in the cable for combining the battery strings is the place for the charge controller connections, monitoring connections, ect.
The heavy battery cable is a direct connection to the battery, so electrically it's just like hooking directly to the battery, without the corrosion/maintenance issues.

My battery strings are wired on 'Quick Connects' specifically designed to work with industrial batteries in fork trucks, ect.
They are silver plated, high current, and darn near fool proof,
AND,
I keep them AWAY from the batteries to minimize the acid contamination.

If you are NOT familiar with 'Anderson Connectors', then look them up on 'Ebay',
But remember to get real, actual ANDERSON BRAND terminals,
The knock-offs aren't nearly as high quality as Anderson...
Low quality will corrode, not pass the current properly creating resistance,
And as we covered already, resistance is bad.

This lets me UNPLUG any given string of batteries for maintenance,
And it makes rotating batteries a snap since I just unplug the center strings and plug them back in on the "Ends" of the battery bank, while the 'Ends' get plugged into the middle...

IF you would be interested,
I have some pictures of building cables, connectors, ect.
I can post links, but I don't want this forum to claim copyright, so links will have to do...

ANDERSON CONNECTORS, Sizes for your application, from 50 amps to 350 amps.
http://www.civilianjeep.info/Wiring/Winch/AndersonConector01.gif

This lets you size your connectors/wiring for the application.
No sense in wasting cable/connector money when it's a low amperage connection!

---------------

*FAILUERS!*

This is what happens when moisture from the air enters a connection...

http://www.civilianjeep.info/Wiring/Winch/WinchInstall12.gif

This *SHOULD* have been a high amperage cable, but this cable wouldn't carry 10% of it's rated amperage,
Simply because *I* forgot to solder the crimp connection...

This cable cost me an 8 battery string, 
AND,
The house ran out of power about 3 hours into the night...

The cable was fine, cut out ALL the corrosion... Put on a new terminal end AND remembered to solder/heat shrink.
The cable is still in use 10 years later.

*IF YOU LEAVE ANY CORROSION, IT WILL MOVE LIKE CANCER THROUGH THE COPPER!
YOU HAVE TO GET ALL THE CORROSION OUT!*

--------------------------

*BATTERY TERMINALS...
NOTICE THE 'POSITIVE' CONNECTOR HOLE IS BIGGER THAN THE 'NEGATIVE' TERMIAL HOLE?*

http://www.civilianjeep.info/Wiring/Winch/WinchInstall08.gif

*NOTICE THE HARD MECHANICAL CRIMP ON THE TERMINAL TO CABLE SOCKETS?*

These are PROPER battery terminals, they actually fit the automotive style 'Post' terminals on a battery...
These are solid copper, with anti-corrosion cadmium plating.
They have 'Blind' sockets for the cable, no chance of acid creeping into the cable like with 'Flattened Tubing' type terminals...

These aren't cheap, but they are VERY CAPABLE of conducting the amperage a battery will throw at them.

---------------------------------

*SOLDER, 
THE ONLY COMMON WAY TO MAKE AN ELECTRICAL CONNECTION!*

http://www.civilianjeep.info/Wiring/Winch/WinchInstall09.gif

Notice the copper wire conductor has been 'Tinned' where it's exposed?
This is an added layer of protection for the bare copper in the event the Heat Shrink fails or the insulation splits where it was exposed to soldering heat.

Also notice the solder tube says 'Silver Bearing', meaning a sliver content to the solder.

-------------------------------

*ENVIORNMENTAL PROTECTION!*

THIS IS INDUSTRAL HEAT SHRINK TUBING WITH GLUE INSIDE.
THAT GLUE IS WORTH GOLD FOR SEALING UP THE TERMINAL CONNECTION!

http://www.civilianjeep.info/Wiring/Winch/WinchInstall10.gif

-------------------------------

*TWO THINGS HERE...*

This shows the bolt/flag style connectors, but a version that will CONDUCT HIGH DC AMPERAGE, they are VERY heavy and have a lot of 'Contact Patch' to transfer amperage from battery to cable,

AND,
This picture shows the GLUE oozing out and sealing up the terminal to cable connection.
Let moisture/acid/ect. try and get past that glue!

------------------------------

*THIS IS AN ANDERSON CONNECTOR ON THE CABLES.*

Notice there isn't any extra wires connected to the battery cable side, just the battery cables...
This will allow me to remove a battery/string from the battery bank for service/replacement without having to cut cables, taking the entire battery bank off line, ect.

This also shows the steps I take to seal up that Anderson connector...
The Anderson connector isn't cheap, so the better you seal it up against corrosion, the longer it will last...

http://www.civilianjeep.info/Wiring/Winch/WinchInstall30.gif

Once I've sealed up the base terminals to the cable,
Then I fill the connector/boot with DIELECTRIC (Non-Conductive) silicone grease.

Where grease is, moisture, oxygen, acid, corrosives CAN NOT be.
You only do this ONCE, since the battery end terminals are replicable if you leave a little extra cable to cut away anything that corrodes, simply replace the battery terminal and you are off to the races again...

http://www.civilianjeep.info/Wiring/Winch/WinchInstall31.gif

This is for a SINGLE BATTERY, but it's easy enough to make one cable MUCH longer for a battery string end connections.

Single cables between batteries are built the same way, just using the battery terminals on both ends.

----------------------------------

*SAFETY DISCONNECT!*

Safety disconnects for several thousand AMPS are very expensive...
This handle on the Anderson connector is a 'Manual' safety disconnect in the event a battery string goes haywire.

http://www.civilianjeep.info/Wiring/Winch/WinchInstall32.gif

One side of my Anderson connectors are mounted solidly, while the battery strings plug into to the mounted side.
This handle lets me break the circuit for ANY of the battery strings manually with one jerk.

It's also handy for a guy that is 'disabled', again, I don't have to get a wrench out or cut cables if something goes wrong...
And it's pretty handy for routine maintenance! 
Takes a bunch of tools/work out of moving the batteries in the string or bank.

Roller carts with battery strings in 24 or 48 volts, along with these disconnects, makes rotating batteries a SNAP without lugging anything or even having to break the tool box out!

--------------------------

*IN THE "WHAT NOT TO DO" FILE...*

On the left, the flattened copper tubing terminals...
See the line where acid can creep up the tubing right to your cables?

See the bare copper the acid is going to IMMEDATELY attack since there is no protection?

If you are going to use these flattened tubing terminals,
Remember to drop some solder in the socket, and heat it up to at least plug up the 'Acid Freeway' to your expensive cables!

http://www.civilianjeep.info/Wiring...lianjeep.info/Wiring/Winch/WinchInstall01.gif

Notice the 4th terminal from the right, the one with TWO cable connections...
This allows you to make ONE connection to the battery, while having TWO FULL AMPERAGE CONNECTIONS to that single battery terminal.

This one is for stud/bolt type batteries, but they are also made for automotive type posts on batteries....

-------------------------

*UPGRADING, SERIES/PARELLEL WITHOUT REWIRING EVERYTHING!*

SO, you add some extra panels/batteries and you want to upgrade the inverter from 24 volts to 48 volts,
BUT,
You have a TON of money in 6 volt batteries and cables...

OR,
You want to double the Amp/Hour rating of your primary or secondary battery string,
(Or like me, you just want to plug the golf cart into the battery string as an added battery string to run the house)...

How do you do this?

http://www.civilianjeep.info/Wiring/Winch/WinchInstall23.gif

http://www.civilianjeep.info/Wiring/Winch/WinchInstall29.gif

You just got to love Anderson connectors!
They will let you Series/Parallel the battery strings to accommodate what you have for inverters!

Smaller connectors for base battery strings/lower amperage,
Larger when you series two strings for larger amperage conductors.

No sense in throwing out that lower voltage input inverter, there is nothing wrong with it,
And it makes a back up for the newer, higher voltage inverter.
If the new one fails, you simply knock back the voltage of the battery strings and power up the old inverter to run the house while the newer higher voltage inverter goes in for warranty!

Reverse compatibility/Redundancy is a wonderful thing!
You don't eat cold food while sitting in the dark!
You may have reduced/limited power capability on the old inverter (usually the reason people upgrade over time),
But the basic stuff still works! You just can't turn it all on at once...

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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

*AUTOMATIC WATERING SYSTEMS!*

They come from 'Cheap' and NOT worth the money,
To ELABORATE and expensive, and not worth the money...

But an automatic watering system is a great thing!
I use the ones that CONDENSE the gas back into electrolyte and return it to the battery so you don't dilute the electrolyte any more than you have to,
And they maintain the liquid level...

I tried a few, tried to make my own, and wound up with the caps that condense the gas back into electrolyte,
And yet the level checker in the battery doesn't hang up and over/under fill the cells,
The reserve tank/tubing I wound up making myself.

You can dump in a couple of gallons of distilled water, take off for a month or two on vacation and NOT worry about the batteries!

This isn't practical if you only have a few little batteries, but as your batteries get bigger, and the strings get bigger, it's a big help in the maintenance of the batteries.

Be advised, not all batteries will accept these watering systems.
Most of the true deep cycles, including golf cart batteries will.

--------------

The next thing you will need is VENTLATION!
The hydrogen will escape the batteries, and you CAN get explosive concentrations of hydrogen.

I ventilate the 'Out building' I use for batteries, inverters, water tanks, ect. with a 'Whirly Bird' roof vent, 
And I have a fan in the end of the room that runs on a small solar panel.
The solar panel fan runs when the batteries are charging in the daytime,
The 'Whirley Bird' vents anytime the breeze is blowing,
The other end of the building has an open vent to outside.
Power venting any time the sun is up or the breeze is blowing, passive venting when there isn't any other power.

I use a vent fan (Low consumption computer fans) to ventilate the battery areas when I'm out there...
There are sensors that will turn the fans on/off, or you can just wire your fans to a door switch so the room vents when you open the doors, so it's vented when you start working.
This is POSITIVE power venting...

If you work on battery terminals, make darn sure you have a fan blowing over the batteries BEFORE you start any work.
You want to displace that hydrogen sulfide gas before you start.
Electrical connections make sparks even when everything is turned 'Off', static, residual line discharge, bad diodes allowing the circuit to be 'Hot', ect.
The 'Easy' way is to simply remove the gas from the work area, and computer fans are cheap/plentiful/easy to use and don't weight much, and easy to wire.
Most are already 12 volts, so they are a snap to wire/work with.

-------------------

If you work around batteries and DO NOT have BOTH SAFETY GLASSES AND FACE SHIELD, you are risking your eyesight.
Battery electrolyte usually won't burn your skin away on casual contact, but it will ABSLOUTELY DESTROY the lenses of your eyes!

Face shield keeps the acid off your face, 
Safety glasses keeps it out of your eyes.
Both are needed because it doesn't matter how many safety measures you take, STUFF HAPPENS!

Mine hang on a hook dangling in the doorway to the batteries, I have to run into them getting into the battery room, this makes sure I remember to put them on UPON ENTERING the battery area...

I know it's excessive, but I've had more than one battery blow up on me (not in my solar array, mostly automotive batteries) and I DO NOT want to experience that again,
ESPECALLY IN A CLOSED ROOM!

There is no substitute for ventilation when it comes to keeping the terminals away from the batteries from corrosion!
Keeping that corrosive gas away from the connections at the inverter, solar panels to inverter, ect. will make your connections trouble free for MUCH LONGER.
And it's as simple as a roof/door/end 'Gable' vents...

-------------------

DON'T FORGET THE 'GROUND' RODS, 
I know it's DC, and I know it's probably going to be in a wooden building next to the solar array,
but don't forget the 'Earth Ground' rods!

Lightening is attracted to anything metallic, even when it's not a 'Proper' ground,
So having your ground rod driven into MOIST or conductive earth (LONG RODS ARE WORTH EVERY PENNY!) and having your inverter/lightening arrester (about $35) properly 'Grounded' is a very good idea!

If you are 'Off Grid', the power lines are usually the most 'Attractive' ground for lightening,
But when you are off grid, your solar panel racks and your batteries/cables/inverters are the second most attractive 'Ground' for lightening!
(Yup, I found this out the hard way, had the TV antenna next to the first battery/solar array, three lightening strikes later I decided to research it and do something about it)
Couldn't have created a worse situation for myself, and I paid the price!...

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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

More good stuff.....


Thanks JH!


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Agree, more excellent stuff. One nit-pik though - lightning is not attracted to anything. The electron clouds that are the reservoirs for lightning drain to whatever will lower or equalize potentials. They like to drain through whatever has the least resistance, whether it is a wet tree, antenna lead-in, or golfer on an open field. Attraction implies that it actively selects and seeks out certain objects. In point of fact, there are multiple false leaders in most strikes, ones where the resistance is to high for the high current part of the strike to ionize the air.

A lot of knowledge about DC can be obtained by studying how the old trolley cars worked. They were typically 600 volts or more, but had many of the same issues and solutions.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Yup, you are right about lightening,
'Attract' is common useage.

The big metal frames on solar panels are a grounded 'High' point, since you don't normally have trees around solar panels.
That makes your panels an 'Attractive' target.
The frames make a great electrode ionizing the air directly above the panels.
I went one step to the stupid side, erecting a TV antenna tower with a wind generator and sattalite dish hanging off it to further make my system an attractive target...

Common sense escaped me entirely on that one!


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