# Why do we Allow Corporations ?



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

In another thread there is talk about how easy it is for a company to move its tax home on paper to avoid taxes. 
I believe the reason for a company to exist is to dodge being responsible for its actions. 
I see people complain about other things the corporate structure allows them to do. 

So why do we allow them to exist ?


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Corporations exist in order to make business possible in ways not possible within the framework of proprietorships or partnerships. I don't have a problem with limited liability. The lack of this would cripple our economy especially in the day when some imbecile misusing a product can sue the manufacturer such as to make his or her family wealthy for several generations in spite of the fact that the user's stupidity was the actual problem. A favorite example was the buyer of a motorhome who set the cruise control and then went in back to make a sandwich. I doubt I need to elaborate on how this didn't end well--and this individual hit the lottery in court. Does a company owner deserve to lose everything he ever worked for over something like that?

As for the shady side of actions allowed by the corporate structure, there are ways to deal with that, just don't expect congress to actually do them. I see it in much the same way that the existence of criminals doesn't justify outlawing the existence of human beings. The first and best single change to deal with the tax manipulation is to remove the tariff exemption on 'American' companies which produce goods in foreign countries and then import them with preferential taxation.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> ... So why do we allow them to exist ?


I have seen the process of 'inheritance' a number of times in my family. And we recently had to deal with it again.

If my farm were simply in my name, and I were to die, would be courts in the process and taxes.

We have decided to place our property and money into an LLC, and to name our sons on the LLC. To attempt to smooth that process for when I die.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ET1
Do you think that is a good enough reason for all the evil that can be done with them ?
Indy Dave I’m
Not familiar with the case you cite do you have more info or a link ?
Do you think protecting from a unjustified award is bettter than the guarantee of protecting from a justified award ?


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> ET1
> Do you think that is a good enough reason for all the evil that can be done with them ?
> Indy Dave I’m
> Not familiar with the case you cite do you have more info or a link ?
> Do you think protecting from a unjustified award is bettter than the guarantee of protecting from a justified award ?


It has been several years and I don't remember all the details or which manufacturer it was, but the case turned on the notion that nowhere in the instruction manual did the manufacturer specifically state that the driver could not leave the driver's seat with the cruise control set, or in other words failed to specify that it was only a speed control and not an autopilot. I wish I could give you more from memory or a path back to the case, but, well, God's 20 year/20,000 mile warranty ran out and my memory has gone downhill along with everything else!

I am satisfied that the evil can be done just about as well without the existence of the corporate structure and that most corporations are in reality small businesses where there is a threat of homelessness involved in the event of a frivolous lawsuit and an imbecilic jury. That said, while the status quo is far from perfect, it is better than the absence of such things as corporations.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

The cruise control story is an urban legend, not even remotely true, It did make it to the "Stella Awards" list one year, where it was chased down and disproved. 
http://www.heraldtribune.com/news/2...e-shows-truth-behind-frivolous-lawsuit-claims
http://www.jerebeasleyreport.com/20...ut-out-by-the-tort-reformers-must-be-exposed/
https://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/cruise.asp


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Clem said:


> The cruise control story is an urban legend, not even remotely true, It did make it to the "Stella Awards" list one year, where it was chased down and disproved.
> http://www.heraldtribune.com/news/2...e-shows-truth-behind-frivolous-lawsuit-claims
> http://www.jerebeasleyreport.com/20...ut-out-by-the-tort-reformers-must-be-exposed/
> https://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/cruise.asp


Thanks for the additional information. We are still left with hot coffee actually being hot.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

IndyDave said:


> Thanks for the additional information. We are still left with hot coffee actually being hot.


I am familiar with the McDonald’s lawsuit and like many “famous” cases what we think we know about it is wrong. 
In fact it’s a good argument for outlawing corporations since they have manipulated a good and reasonable decision into a laughing stock.

The short version of the story is that after many times of being warned to adjust the temperature of the coffee they were serving McDonald’s served coffee at nearly boiling as far as the award the lady only asked for her medical costs to be paid


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

But I think we are getting off track on to a different problem.
Should only those people with enough wealth To afford to incorporate them selves have protection from the legendary but unfindable frivolous lawsuit?
So back to the question why should we allow some people love to be responsible for their actions?


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

AmericanStand said:


> The short version of the story is that after many times of being warned to adjust the temperature of the coffee they were serving McDonald’s served coffee at nearly boiling as far as the award the lady only asked for her medical costs to be paid


All companies served coffee nearly boiling, it was THE standard until some idiot put it between her legs while driving. I managed Taco Bells back in the 70's the manual said it was to be held at 195F


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

LOL. She wasn't driving, nor was the car moving. 
Furthermore, McDonalds had had hundreds of complaints before hers, and settled claims for as high as $500,000++


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> In fact it’s *a good argument for outlawing corporations *since they have manipulated a good and reasonable decision into a laughing stock.


That's an opinion I've only ever heard from one person.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> In another thread there is talk about how easy it is for a company to move its tax home on paper to avoid taxes.
> I believe the reason for a company to exist is to dodge being responsible for its actions.
> I see people complain about other things the corporate structure allows them to do.
> 
> So why do we allow them to exist ?


As I have said before corporations don't really exist any more than the square root of negative one does. But they are necessary to have to make things work. 

Say you have a great idea for a product. How are you going to get it from your idea to manufactured to in stores? Unless you happen to have a few million dollars in your bank account you are going to need others to let you use their money. That means you either get loans or you form a company and sell parts of it to others with the agreement they will get part of the profits. That's one reason we have them.

Another is because of our legal system. If you could not separate your business holdings from your personal holdings when Joe Slipandfall, gets a papercut filling out an order form and sues you for $10 million for his emotional suffering you'd not only lose your business but your family home as well.

And just as with fire it incorporating can be good or 'evil' depending on how its used.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Good to see you back watcher 
I think your first point is One of those things people are told. But isn’t really true. 
For instance you could sell shares in a partnership. 
Your second point is what I think is wrong. If your form is so bad it results in $10 million in damages why should you not pay the damaged party?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You can take a better look at the cofffee case here;

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vo...71482/mcdonalds-coffee-lawsuit-stella-liebeck


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> For instance you could sell shares in a partnership.


It happens all the time in LLCs. But if you needed 10 million dollars you would need ten friends with a million each that wanted to join you. 

Theoretically 

After a certain point you have to involve the SEC. 

The point Indy and others are trying to make is it isnt the form of business that is the problem. Its the money that lobbys for the privileges that is the problem. If all were proprietor type companies the big boys would just lobby for the same stuff. They can be used to be dishonest too by the way.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

But you see it is the corporation organization that makes a lot of things evil. 
There is not a desk with the plaque “ the buck stops here “
No matter what happens no one goes to jail or is put to death. No one has to put their. House , investments and retirement on the line. 
They just don’t have as much skin in the game.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's an opinion I've only ever heard from one person.


Hugo Chavez?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> But I think we are getting off track on to a different problem.
> Should only those people with enough wealth To afford to incorporate them selves have protection from the legendary but unfindable frivolous lawsuit?
> So back to the question why should we allow some people love to be responsible for their actions?


As recently as a few years ago, I know you could get the paperwork of incorporation done for $100 or less.
It's affordable enough for most people and while it doesn't eliminate all liability it does provide some better protection against losing everything you own in a lawsuit.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

The don't have corporations on Communist Government countries........
Rail against the "machine".....like pizzing in the wind.
Just saying........


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> But you see it is the corporation organization that makes a lot of things evil.
> There is not a desk with the plaque “ the buck stops here “
> No matter what happens no one goes to jail or is put to death. No one has to put their. House , investments and retirement on the line.
> They just don’t have as much skin in the game.


No, it’s laws that allow corporate officers to not be held responsible. Other countries jail such people for their wrongdoing. Why can’t we?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

If the United States outlawed incorporation what would stop them from simply going elsewhere?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

HDRider said:


> If the United States outlawed incorporation what would stop them from simply going elsewhere?


Who knows. It would likely grind the economy to a quick halt.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Ever movement starts somewhere !

Incorporation is cheep it everything with it that costs a bit.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mmoetc said:


> Who knows. It would likely grind the economy to a quick halt.


 Why do you think that ?


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## Hitch (Oct 19, 2016)

There are a lot of reason to have a corporation. Our business is an S-corp, which means the profits pass-through to our personal tax return and is taxed at our tax bracket. A sole-proprieter would have self-employment tax, which is paying both the employee and employer share of their taxes. This is why most business incorporate at some point. But there are also certain reporting requirements that go along with that and that scares some people off. The other main reason to incorporate is to lessen any liability from your business. So if someone sues you they usually can only sue the company and your personal assets are safe.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Hitch said:


> There are a lot of reason to have a corporation. Our business is an S-corp, which means the profits pass-through to our personal tax return and is taxed at our tax bracket. A sole-proprieter would have self-employment tax, which is paying both the employee and employer share of their taxes. This is why most business incorporate at some point. But there are also certain reporting requirements that go along with that and that scares some people off.
> The other main reason to incorporate is to lessen any liability from your business. So if someone sues you they usually can only sue the company and your personal assets are safe.


 Lol the first is simply a reason to choose a particular form of corporation. 
But that last that I made a paragraph brings it all home again. 
It’s all about planning on stealing from your customers if you are held responceable for doing something wrong. 
You see it as safeguarding your assets but why should you have the right to do that at someone else’s expense ?


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> It’s all about planning on stealing from your customers if you are held responceable for doing something wrong.
> You see it as safeguarding your assets but why should you have the right to do that at someone else’s expense ?



Sheesh ! Sounds like someone who thinks they've been wronged by "an evil corporation". 

It's not just customer conflicts you protect yourself against. What about an employee that has hundreds of hours of documented safety training on how to do their particular task, but one day out of an act of laziness they take a shortcut and get themselves or a coworker badly hurt or killed. Should they be able to sue and financially break the business owner? Stuff like this happens every day.

Owned a corporation for 35 years and can't recall that we ever knowingly screwed over a customer or employee. Also can't recall ever trying to hide behind the corporation. When we made a mistake, we owned up to it and made things right. For every one of these "evil corporations" you hear about in the media doing something shady, there are a thousand others doing the right things and treating people fairly. Changing the business structure from corporate to sole proprietor won't eliminate all evils, the bad guys will find another way to do their thing.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol the first is simply a reason to choose a particular form of corporation.
> But that last that I made a paragraph brings it all home again.
> It’s all about planning on stealing from your customers if you are held responceable for doing something wrong.
> *You see it as safeguarding your assets but why should you have the right to do that at someone else’s expense ?*


How about this: My brothers and I are in the trucking business. A few years back, a law firm had a television commercial which was basically a tutorial on how to deliberately cause an accident which would open the door to a lawsuit, and the idea whether picked up there or elsewhere must have caught on since not only did I hear of it actually happening more frequently, but the state police started cracking down on the maneuver setting up the accident even though they generally don't give a flip about the well-being of the trucking industry. Why should we stand to lose everything in a case like this? What opportunities of this type exist for others in different lines of work?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Fishindude said:


> Sheesh ! Sounds like someone who thinks they've been wronged by "an evil corporation".
> 
> It's not just customer conflicts you protect yourself against. What about an employee that has hundreds of hours of documented safety training on how to do their particular task, but one day out of an act of laziness they take a shortcut and get themselves or a coworker badly hurt or killed. *Should they be able to sue and financially break the business owner?* Stuff like this happens every day.
> .



Why shouldn't they? Why should they pay for your mistake?
See that's EXACTLY my point. They didn't cause the problem,you did yet you think they should pay for it.
No Not wronged by a evil company.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

IndyDave said:


> How about this: My brothers and I are in the trucking business. A few years back, a law firm had a television commercial which was basically a tutorial on how to deliberately cause an accident which would open the door to a lawsuit, and the idea whether picked up there or elsewhere must have caught on since not only did I hear of it actually happening more frequently, but the state police started cracking down on the maneuver setting up the accident even though they generally don't give a flip about the well-being of the trucking industry. * Why should we stand to lose everything in a case like this? * What opportunities of this type exist for others in different lines of work?


Why should you be special?
If its wrong its wrong for everybody.

I cant see how this relates? its a problem that would happen no matter how the trucking was organized.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> Why should you be special?
> If its wrong its wrong for everybody.
> 
> I cant see how this relates? its a problem that would happen no matter how the trucking was organized.


I am not following. There is still a risk to the business in the event of a frivolous/fraudulent lawsuit, but our homes and personal property are safe. Why would you have a problem with this? Who said anything about being special? As I said, I am sure there is some way to do this to most any business owner. What about the owner of a stationary business getting sued by the person who walks right past the 'No Trespassing' sign, trips, falls, breaks something, and heads straight to his lawyer?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> In another thread there is talk about how easy it is for a company to move its tax home on paper to avoid taxes.
> I believe the reason for a company to exist is to dodge being responsible for its actions.
> I see people complain about other things the corporate structure allows them to do.
> 
> So why do we allow them to exist ?


Why would we NOT allow them to exist? Anyone running any type of business can be a crook, there are no special concessions in that regard offered to corporations.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

IndyDave said:


> It has been several years and I don't remember all the details or which manufacturer it was, but the case turned on the notion that nowhere in the instruction manual did the manufacturer specifically state that the driver could not leave the driver's seat with the cruise control set, or in other words failed to specify that it was only a speed control and not an autopilot. I wish I could give you more from memory or a path back to the case, but, well, God's 20 year/20,000 mile warranty ran out and my memory has gone downhill along with everything else!
> 
> I am satisfied that the evil can be done just about as well without the existence of the corporate structure and that most corporations are in reality small businesses where there is a threat of homelessness involved in the event of a frivolous lawsuit and an imbecilic jury. That said, while the status quo is far from perfect, it is better than the absence of such things as corporations.


About ten years ago that made the top ten of the years dumbest lawsuits. I recall reading it. I think it was number one on the list for the year. Another one on the same list was a burglar who broke into a family's while they were one vacation, got himself locked in the garage somehow, and then had to live on soda and potato chips from the family's snack stash for a week until the family got home from vacation. He sued the family and won.. Go figure. 
I wish the dog ate him instead.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Corporations are just try to work a system that works against us while at the same time making their own little system within the system that gives them freedom to make a lot of money. 

Sometimes they win sometimes they lose.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> They just don’t have as much skin in the game.


Someone slips and falls outside your Lemonade Stand and they can sue all they want and won't cover their legal fees if you are as broke as the rest of us. But have a thousand shareholders invest their life savings into a business and you get a slip and fall case and teams of lawyers would be scrambling to sue the business into bankruptcy. Every shareholder loses their retirement investments, life savings, plus could be liable and lose their homes and any other assets they have. A LLC allows lawyers to sue the business into bankruptcy, the thousand investors (shareholders) lose their money, but no one can go after their home, car or first born.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Most people go to work, get a paycheck and go home. Their wages and property are theirs. Owner of a corporation is also going to work,getting a paycheck and going home. Their wages and property are theirs also. Same for the stock holders who are invested in the business and gaining from it. 
There are plenty of laws to protect from wrongdoing in the business world to take care of such issues. Problem is their not enforced very often, especially when you are making big bucks and can afford the right lawyers.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

I've never had a job from a poor person or company. Why worry about some corporation that's successful. Most of the people I hear railing against them are the ones that think government and society owes them something. We would not be having this discussion if the tax rate had not of gotten so high.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

M5farm said:


> I've never had a job from a poor person or company. Why worry about some corporation that's successful. Most of the people I hear railing against them are the ones that think government and society owes them something. We would not be having this discussion if the tax rate had not of gotten so high.


LOL now that just plain wrong! The tax rate has come DOWN from 90% and that's the problem.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Why would we NOT allow them to exist? Anyone running any type of business can be a crook, there are no special concessions in that regard offered to corporations.


Yes there are that's my point! You see if I do you wrong and build a rich lifestyle from it you can recover from me but If I do some paperwork I'm granted the right to rip you off without any recourse from you.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Yes there are that's my point! You see if I do you wrong and build a rich lifestyle from it you can recover from me but If I do some paperwork I'm granted the right to rip you off without any recourse from you.


Still not true. You can still get anything that corporation built or made just not the CEO's personal house and car. Under sole proprietor you could get it all.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Someone slips and falls outside your Lemonade Stand and they can sue all they want and won't cover their legal fees if you are as broke as the rest of us. But have a thousand shareholders invest their life savings into a business and you get a slip and fall case and teams of lawyers would be scrambling to sue the business into bankruptcy. Every shareholder loses their retirement investments, life savings, plus could be liable and lose their homes and any other assets they have. A LLC allows lawyers to sue the business into bankruptcy, the thousand investors (shareholders) lose their money, but no one can go after their home, car or first born.


 Exactly right. Those people get rich, buy cars and build homes from the money stolen from the companies victims and yet they are protected and the victims cant recover their damages. what gives them the right to steal and be immune?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mreynolds said:


> Still not true. You can still get anything that corporation built or made just not the CEO's personal house and car. Under sole proprietor you could get it all.


But there isn't a company that's a Idea that protects the CEO , why shouldn't he be responsible for the wrong he has done?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> But there isn't a company that's a Idea that protects the CEO , why shouldn't he be responsible for the wrong he has done?


He is. That's why his company gets sued. The company is what's at fault. The SOPs and procedures put in place at the company. It's not his wife, kids or family dog that's at fault. Why punish them?


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

What I find concerning is 'Corporate Personhood'. Basically, a corporation is given all the rights of a 'natural' person...that is, you and me. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

The problem as a judge noted is, "These legal entities, he argued, have perpetual life, the ability to amass large sums of money, limited liability, no ability to vote, no morality, no purpose outside profit-making, and no loyalty. Therefore, he argued, the courts should permit legislatures to regulate corporate participation in the political process."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC

The above link is about corporation's rights to participate in elections. 

Corporations, in essence, become 'a country within countries', especially if large enough. Their prime motivation is not the same as a 'natural' (real) person. 
We see it when CEOs are given obscene amounts of money, or in the case of banks too big to fail, going to the public purse to be bailed out. How many individuals were bailed out after the last depression? Another case was when the banks colluded to set the overnight rate. They were caught, but the punishment was a slap on the hand, relatively speaking. An individual would be bankrupted. What invariably happens is we loathe to punish corporations to the same extent we punish individuals, because one argues, we don't want to cripple a corporation because they give jobs to many. Yet, we have no problem crippling an individual. The playing field is not level, especially when a corporation can lawyer their way into a 'fine'. SEC or IRS, for instance, can't be bothered to take corporations to court (too expensive), so they negotiate a penalty. Individuals don't have that clout. 

Corporations even take into account their clout (large bank accounts) when making a liability decision. Sure, this product could cause injury, but lets balance it against how much money we can make. If we can make a billion dollars in profit, will that offset our liability if someone sues? Now, if you were an individual selling a product with liability issues, would you? As an individual, you have more 'skin' in the game. A corporation has a legal department. We see this nonsense all the time, when they push a drug with known health risks or is prone to abuse. A prime example is that took decades to find big tobacco liable for it's product. Millions, if not billions of folks died before they were found liable. Eventually, they were found guilty, and had to pay massive settlements, but they made billions over the decades they were in court...to add insult to injury, our government was complicit because of the tax revenue they garnered.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

CEO of a company and its offices can be held accountable for wrong doing. It’s just not done very often. Laws are in place to cover most of the issues. Just not enforced very often. Banks and corporations to big to fail. Pfft. 
People like to gripe about stuff but are seldom willing to follow through on it. They still invest in the same corporations, do business with them. People do not force their representatives in politics and legal profession to follow through on wrong doing. A bit of comment in the news, gripe about it around the water cooler or over a beer and on to the next issue. 
Corporations get away with what the citizens / business people allow. Do customers still buy or do business with corporations that are scandal ridden ? Are they careful where their money is spent ? Think real careful on that answer. 
Now to prepare for the flames to follow........
It’s all about responsibility and accountability. Two things I believe that many Americans like to talk about but do not actually hold to a high degree and sure as heck does not hold others to.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Good write up Melli


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Yes there are that's my point! You see if I do you wrong and build a rich lifestyle from it you can recover from me but If I do some paperwork I'm granted the right to rip you off without any recourse from you.


To the best of my knowledge corporations can be sued, same as any other company.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> LOL now that just plain wrong! The tax rate has come DOWN from 90% and that's the problem.


You are only telling half of the story. While there has been a significant drop in the marginal tax rate, the effective rate didn't change that much. In tandem with dropping the nominal rates, huge numbers of deductions were also eliminated such that it served more as approaching truth in taxation rather than a discount per se. Rates dropped significantly, but you could also no longer write off dust settling as a deduction.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mreynolds said:


> He is. That's why his company gets sued. The company is what's at fault. The SOPs and procedures put in place at the company. It's not his wife, kids or family dog that's at fault. Why punish them?


Is it a punishment for them to have something taken away that they shouldn’t of had in the first place?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> To the best of my knowledge corporations can be sued, same as any other company.


 Yes they can but remember there really is not a “thing” called a corporation that made the choices or benefitted from them. 
Why shouldn’t a man that decided to kill hundreds of people be punished just cause he can buy a piece of paper that he can’t ?
If we discribed it in those terms how long would the public allow it ?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Should not have had for what reason ? A vague question with no correct answer. Seems to be a pattern.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Yes they can but remember there really is not a “thing” called a corporation that made the choices or benefitted from them.
> Why shouldn’t a man that decided to kill hundreds of people be punished just cause he can buy a piece of paper that he can’t ?
> If we discribed it in those terms how long would the public allow it ?


Don't really understand everything I know about how someone losing everything they own and being put in jail is not punishment. But go with that if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Is it a punishment for them to have something taken away that they shouldn’t of had in the first place?


I dont know. *Should* you have a computer and internet? 

If so, why?


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> Is it a punishment for them to have something taken away that they shouldn’t of had in the first place?


Some moron spilling coffee on herself stands in evidence that McD's had millions of dollars that were wrongfully taken away from someone else?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Don't really understand everything I know about how someone losing everything they own and being put in jail is not punishment. But go with that if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.


 If they shouldn’t have it in the first place it’s not really a punishment when they have to give it back , it’s simply restitution. 
Just like when a bank robber has to return the money you don’t say you are punishing his wife and kids.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

IndyDave said:


> Some moron spilling coffee on herself stands in evidence that McD's had millions of dollars that were wrongfully taken away from someone else?


 Really ? We have been through this here before I think. 
The very nice sweet old lady was served coffee far hotter than the law allowed in a substandard cup AFFTER MC Ds has been warned fined ,and sued repeatedly. 
SHE only asked for the payment of her hospital bills even though she was horribly burnt and disfigured. 
It was a jury of your peers that thought something needed to be done to get McDs attention. 
To call her a moron is not only insulting and against the rules of this forum it reveals yourself as a patsy for the disinformation campaign created by the corporate world to help protect them from needed lawsuits.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Really ? We have been through this here before I think.
> The very nice sweet old lady was served coffee far hotter than the law allowed in a substandard cup AFFTER MC Ds has been warned fined ,and sued repeatedly.
> SHE only asked for the payment of her hospital bills even though she was horribly burnt and disfigured.
> It was a jury of your peers that thought something needed to be done to get McDs attention.
> To call her a moron is not only insulting and against the rules of this forum it reveals yourself as a patsy for the disinformation campaign created by the corporate world to help protect them from needed lawsuits.


Links? I have never seen your version of those events.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> If they shouldn’t have it in the first place it’s not really a punishment when they have to give it back , it’s simply restitution.
> Just like when a bank robber has to return the money you don’t say you are punishing his wife and kids.


How many corporations go round "robbing" people? I suppose turning an honest profit is theft in your mind?


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

coolrunnin said:


> Links? I have never seen your version of those events.


Go back and read this thread, there is more than one link about the hot coffee, and also the totally made up RV story.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> How many corporations go round "robbing" people? I suppose turning an honest profit is theft in your mind?


 Very few thank goodness. 
There’s nothing wrong with a profit. It’s when the situation of liabilities comes up that you have a problem with theft. 
Let’s say for instance that a company works many years creating widgets, buying widgonium and secretly discharging onium into the water table. 
People make a lot of money by owning the company and of course the CEO makes great wages cause he makes more profit than other widget companies cause of his lower costs. 
Then. People start to get sick. The EPA traces the root cause back to the company , the people Sue and win but the company doesn’t have any money just a few worn out machines and a few barrels of onium. 
So these people that need thousands of dollars for their treatment get $1.98 apiece.
Meanwhile the CEO and the owners that made these decisions that cost these people so much still get to live their million dollar lifestyle.
Is that right?
Just because they have a piece of paper that says it wasn’t really them ,it was some imaginary friend that made those mistakes?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Don't really understand everything I know about how someone losing everything they own and being put in jail is not punishment. But go with that if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.


 No one said that.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> Really ? We have been through this here before I think.
> The very nice sweet old lady was served coffee far hotter than the law allowed in a substandard cup AFFTER MC Ds has been warned fined ,and sued repeatedly.
> SHE only asked for the payment of her hospital bills even though she was horribly burnt and disfigured.
> It was a jury of your peers that thought something needed to be done to get McDs attention.
> To call her a moron is not only insulting and against the rules of this forum it reveals yourself as a patsy for the disinformation campaign created by the corporate world to help protect them from needed lawsuits.


According to this statement the process to resolve the issue was available and used. Money was collected from the corporation to get their attention. Problem solved.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Why would we NOT allow them to exist? Anyone running any type of business can be a crook, there are no special concessions in that regard offered to corporations.


 No That’s wrong!
There are special concessions for companies!
That’s the point of this thread!
Sorry I wasn’t clear about that earlier.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

responsible corporate officer (RCO) laws can help with the issue. Other such laws exist. The questions should be why are they not used ?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Very few thank goodness.
> There’s nothing wrong with a profit. It’s when the situation of liabilities comes up that you have a problem with theft.
> Let’s say for instance that a company works many years creating widgets, buying widgonium and secretly discharging onium into the water table.
> People make a lot of money by owning the company and of course the CEO makes great wages cause he makes more profit than other widget companies cause of his lower costs.
> ...


Interesting take on how corporations function.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

YH remember like I said most most play nice......till they don't.


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## Hitch (Oct 19, 2016)

AmericanStand, obviously you’ve never owned a business and you should refrain from babbling on about a subject you know nothing about.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Why shouldn't they? Why should they pay for your mistake?
> See that's EXACTLY my point. They didn't cause the problem,you did yet you think they should pay for it.
> No Not wronged by a evil company.


Guy I went to school with got himself killed in an industrial accident. Got himself squished in a large piece of machinery. He had jerry rigged the safety switch which allowed him to get into the danger zone so he could shortcut his work efforts. Had been trained on this and warned of the dangers, warning labels all over the machine. Toxicology results also revealed pot and booze in his bloodstream at time of death.

His spouse got a fat settlement from that corporation, but this accident was no fault of theirs. They just settled rather than fight a lengthy, more expensive court battle.

Good reason to have a corporation, otherwise the deceased persons family could have singled out an individual business owner and taken him and his insurance company to the cleaners for something that was no fault of theirs. Breaking that business would have put a whole bunch of other good employees (that followed the safety rules) out of a job too.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Hitch said:


> AmericanStand, obviously you’ve never owned a business and you should refrain from babbling on about a subject you know nothing about.


Why would you say such a thing ?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Corporations and the laws surrounding them are not perfect. They do however beat the alternatives.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Why would you say such a thing ?


Because your posts here suggest you have no experience running a business


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

coolrunnin said:


> Because your posts here suggest you have no experience running a business


I agree. This evil business thing is getting old. Too many people think they all must be. I shut my company down in 2010. Someone filed unemployment on me in 2012. The workforce commission *demanded* to know why I didnt carry unemployment insurance in 2012. I had to hire someone to prove I was innocent.

I didnt even know the guy and had never heard of him. They assumed I was an evil business owner that just fired someone for no reason. Someone I never hired and didnt even know. He just got my business name out of an old phone book.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> I agree. This evil business thing is getting old. Too many people think they all must be. I shut my company down in 2010. Someone filed unemployment on me in 2012. The workforce commission *demanded* to know why I didnt carry unemployment insurance in 2012. I had to hire someone to prove I was innocent.
> 
> I didnt even know the guy and had never heard of him. They assumed I was an evil business owner that just fired someone for no reason. Someone I never hired and didnt even know. He just got my business name out of an old phone book.


Sad story, but nothing to do with Corporations. More like an issue with a sadistic workforce commission. A quick 'what the bleep are you talking about' to the commission should had been sufficient. 
Personally, I really don't think businesses are evil. Their shelter is evil. The fact they have virtually similar rights and protections as human beings seems preposterous. Their shelter (the container upon which they reside) makes them super human. In essence, they are in a world of their own. Not only can they turn to their finance department to shelter money (original posters comment), they can turn to their legal department to not only get the best advice possible, but finagle their way out of most things. No normal human being has that much clout. Better yet, corporations lobby for subsidies that no human could dream of, and apparently can lobby politically. 
We humans on the other hand, cannot go to the fed reserve and ask for bailout money at prime. Nor can most of us hire a phalanx of lawyers to pursue any slight. 

Imagine, if we were a corporation. First thing I'd do is call up my legal department and sue our provincial government for undue hardship in building my own home. The rules are stacked against us homeowner builders relative to a contractor (the rules are not equal, as HBO doesn't want homeowners building their own home). Then, I'd sue hydro for the two tier rates because rural folks suffer higher rates because we have no choice (no gas lines in our hood). Then I'd go after our provincial insurance corp., for not allowing plate transfer. If I had enough muscle, I'd probably win. Then, instead of going to my bank for 'prime plus' interest rate on a loan, I'd call up the feds and ask for prime rate loan. Heck, first I'd ask for subsidy...lol
Oh yeah, I'd get a tax free number so I'd stop paying sales tax. I'd get my finance department to depreciate and write off everything I did, in the course of my homesteading venture. And just before I went belly up, I'd pay myself a wage equivalent to everything I own.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

I suspect people are talking about two different types and uses of corporations on here. The big mega million ones getting away with stuff and the smaller ones owned by the guy next door trying to make a living.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

melli said:


> Sad story, but nothing to do with Corporations. More like an issue with a sadistic workforce commission. A quick 'what the bleep are you talking about' to the commission should had been sufficient.
> Personally, I really don't think businesses are evil. Their shelter is evil. The fact they have virtually similar rights and protections as human beings seems preposterous. Their shelter (the container upon which they reside) makes them super human. In essence, they are in a world of their own. Not only can they turn to their finance department to shelter money (original posters comment), they can turn to their legal department to not only get the best advice possible, but finagle their way out of most things. No normal human being has that much clout. Better yet, corporations lobby for subsidies that no human could dream of, and apparently can lobby politically.
> We humans on the other hand, cannot go to the fed reserve and ask for bailout money at prime. Nor can most of us hire a phalanx of lawyers to pursue any slight.
> 
> ...


Sure the HBO doesnt want home owners building their own home. That doesnt stop them from doing it though. You have a few misconceptions about it though. They build them cheaper for many reasons. They use the same contractors and build cookie cutter houses. The go from one slab to the next. 

When you apply for a home loan you will offer to pay it out in 15 or twenty years. They will pay it in 12 months or less. Of course they get better rates annually but over a thirty year period the money costs them more. Plus they can get non recourse loans on just the house and property. Its much harder for the normal guys like you and me to get those. 

But notice that when there is a downturn these big players are the first to take a hit. They fly by the seat of their pants no matter how many times it bites them. Their margins are squat. But most people think they just roll in it when they really dont that often.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

melli said:


> I really don't think businesses are evil. Their shelter is evil. The fact they have virtually similar rights and protections as human beings seems preposterous. Their shelter (the container upon which they reside) makes them super human. In essence, they are in a world of their own. Not only can they turn to their finance department to shelter money (original posters comment), they can turn to their legal department to not only get the best advice possible, but finagle their way out of most things. No normal human being has that much clout. Better yet, corporations lobby for subsidies that no human could dream of, and apparently can lobby politically.


All corporations are not General Motors size.
When my company first incorporated we had about 15 employees; no super human shelter, no finance department, no legal department, and really not all that much clout that I recall. Most corporations are like this, small private businesses.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Redlands Okie said:


> I suspect people are talking about two different types and uses of corporations on here. The big mega million ones getting away with stuff and the smaller ones owned by the guy next door trying to make a living.


I agree the small corporate entities cannot avail themselves of the all the benefits the mega corps can.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

melli said:


> I agree the small corporate entities cannot avail themselves of the all the benefits the mega corps can.


 But all corporations have one thing in common. Limited liability. 
The topic of this thread.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> Sure the HBO doesnt want home owners building their own home. That doesnt stop them from doing it though. You have a few misconceptions about it though. They build them cheaper for many reasons. They use the same contractors and build cookie cutter houses. The go from one slab to the next.
> 
> When you apply for a home loan you will offer to pay it out in 15 or twenty years. They will pay it in 12 months or less. Of course they get better rates annually but over a thirty year period the money costs them more. Plus they can get non recourse loans on just the house and property. Its much harder for the normal guys like you and me to get those.
> 
> But notice that when there is a downturn these big players are the first to take a hit. They fly by the seat of their pants no matter how many times it bites them. Their margins are squat. But most people think they just roll in it when they really dont that often.


You've lost me...are you talking about contractor corps? 
HPO (misprint) I was referring to is a provincial regulatory body on home building. The problem is they ask undue burden on homeowner builders that is ridiculous. It is a knee jerk reaction to the leaky condo crisis, but they were built by developers, not home owner builders. Actually, it was the architects and engineers who dropped the ball (Sante Fe homes in a rainforest). 
And yeah, developers can get better deals for sure, since they are off-loading product when done. 

In the last tract development I bought into, the developer conveniently shut the company down when done, leaving a few folks twirling in wind.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> Because your posts here suggest you have no experience running a business


Lol just because I can see faults with a system doesn’t mean I can’t operate within the rules. 
Corporate owners range from far right to far left, their real objectives are all over the place too


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> But all corporations have one thing in common. Limited liability.
> The topic of this thread.


Your solution ? Realistic one please could could possibly happen.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

melli said:


> You've lost me...are you talking about contractor corps?
> HPO (misprint) I was referring to is a provincial regulatory body on home building. The problem is they ask undue burden on homeowner builders that is ridiculous. It is a knee jerk reaction to the leaky condo crisis, but they were built by developers, not home owner builders. Actually, it was the architects and engineers who dropped the ball (Sante Fe homes in a rainforest).
> And yeah, developers can get better deals for sure, since they are off-loading product when done.
> 
> In the last tract development I bought into, the developer conveniently shut the company down when done, leaving a few folks twirling in wind.


Ah I thought you were taking about a home builders org or something.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> But all corporations have one thing in common. Limited liability.
> The topic of this thread.


I started a trust to protect my retirement money. It has more perks than a Corp. In that respect. 

Am I evil?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> But all corporations have one thing in common. Limited liability.
> The topic of this thread.


Everyone has limited liability. Check it out with any bankruptcy atty. you get to keep your home, your tools used to make a living etc etc.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mreynolds said:


> I started a trust to protect my retirement money. It has more perks than a Corp. In that respect.
> 
> Am I evil?


 Lol let’s not go down that road just because someone can do evil doesn’t make them evil. 
It’s the same with a corporation.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Redlands Okie said:


> Your solution ? Realistic one please could could possibly happen.


 Simple indeed disallow the corporation as a separate legal person. 
No other changes would be needed, a few words on paper and its fixed. 


In fact it seems to me that most legal fictions should be outlawed


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

I trust corporations as much as I trust politicians. Not at all. They work hand in hand. And don't even mention banks and financial institutions. With the huge mega corporations that we now have growing daily we will soon be completely under their control. Price fixing and planned obsolescence is nothing new. In 1924 we had the Phoebus cartel that set rules for electric light bulbs that cheated people all over the world. And this year in Canada we have had the great bread price fixing scandal involving some of the biggest stores and manufacturers. 

The brainwashing that we have been subjected to for decades needs to stop. You might as well believe in Astrology and Tarot Cards as in trickle down economics.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

The price fixing and such issues are PEOPLE problems, not corporate problems. Some people are not trust worthy with your money in the bank, your loved ones in the hospital, guns in public, or your valuables on a railroad, truck or other form of shipping. Same applies for the news media and elected officials. All these issues existed long before corporations as we know them. Laws to prevent most of the problems are in existence, we the people just do not seem to make sure their enforced.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

emdeengee said:


> I trust corporations as much as I trust politicians. Not at all. They work hand in hand. And don't even mention banks and financial institutions. With the huge mega corporations that we now have growing daily we will soon be completely under their control. Price fixing and planned obsolescence is nothing new. In 1924 we had the Phoebus cartel that set rules for electric light bulbs that cheated people all over the world. And this year in Canada we have had the great bread price fixing scandal involving some of the biggest stores and manufacturers.
> 
> The brainwashing that we have been subjected to for decades needs to stop. You might as well believe in Astrology and Tarot Cards as in trickle down economics.


I've been reading about the great bread scandal.... Can't seem to find many facts, lots of ranting, raving, and the words alleged, and allegations being used a lot. Sounds a bit like our Russian collusion scandal here in the states.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Lots of news about it here and one of our biggest grocery chains has admitted fault but the CEO says he did not know. Yeah. Right. Either he is a liar or incompetent. In an effort at good public relations they are offering everyone a $25 gift card - you just have to register and declare that you have bought bread from them. A project to donate all these cards to local food banks has really taken off. I am still waiting for mine. It is going to cost them millions but they are hoping to avoid more severe penalties. And class action law suits. They are adept at PR - did the same mea culpa (but we did not know ) when the Rana Plaza fire where their line of clothing is made killed 230 workers. Personally I doubt the consumer relations department will punish any of the stores, corporations, wholesalers and bakers very much.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Yeah, I read about the gift cards and how two of "the alleged" companies involved are "supposedly" cooperating with the investigation. What seems to be lacking is the evidence and what actually took place. Very much like our own Russian collusion story down here in the land of the free.... Loaders.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Actually we have a typical reaction to being caught. One group is ratting out the others in an effort to save themselves. George Weston Ltd. and Loblaw Companies Ltd. admitted in December to participating in an industry-wide bread price-fixing arrangement for over a decade and tipping off the country's competition watchdog when the fraud was already being discovered. Documents detailing the fraud were handed in to the court in January 2018. No honour amongst thieves. Which is why so many involved in your Russian scandal are making deals - to save themselves.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Bargaining with jail times so as to implicate others seems to be the number one tool law enforcement has. Seems to work I guess.


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