# The Million dollar question...



## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

I had all summer off and I got to spend it on my farm fixing fences and getting things ready for my small beef operation. I really loved being outside and doing tangible work and being with my family. Not that I don't like 7th graders :hair but returning to work made me wonder about the viability of doing beef full time (and make about $50k). How much land would a person need (in the upper Midwest)? How many head? Would it require direct sales unless you were a really big operation? I realize there are an infinite number of variables here. Does anyone here do that?


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## Dupree (Jan 28, 2014)

Hello. We are trying to do the same.. I have no idea how much money can be made but I would LOVE to bank 50k a year... We've been at it for 4 years and have yet to sell an actual side of beef.. We have 19 head and the year after next we will be at a point where we can start selling. The last 2 years we have only put beef in my freezers... It's sure a long term investment to sell beef this way and I look at it as just that... In the mean time we get to eat some great food and grow our herd. For the time being we are done buying animals and will just grow what we have. We are direct selling our other meat, eggs and veggies so that will be the route we take with our beef. We have 80 acres in pasture and another 70 acres of woods that we will eventually fence and run the cattle and pigs thru.. I would suggest starting out small and work to improve your pasture thru rotational grazing.. In 4 years we have seen a nice improvement to our soil and overall pasture health.. I'm in Northern MN so things may be very similar.. If things continue to improve I would hope one day we can manage a fairly decent sized herd..


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

If you could guarantee the market to stay at a 1000.00 a head on calves you could get close on 200 pair a year. that is providing you could keep your expense down to 500 per cow a yr.


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

Dupree said:


> Hello. We are trying to do the same.. I have no idea how much money can be made but I would LOVE to bank 50k a year... We've been at it for 4 years and have yet to sell an actual side of beef.. We have 19 head and the year after next we will be at a point where we can start selling. The last 2 years we have only put beef in my freezers... It's sure a long term investment to sell beef this way and I look at it as just that... In the mean time we get to eat some great food and grow our herd. For the time being we are done buying animals and will just grow what we have. We are direct selling our other meat, eggs and veggies so that will be the route we take with our beef. We have 80 acres in pasture and another 70 acres of woods that we will eventually fence and run the cattle and pigs thru.. I would suggest starting out small and work to improve your pasture thru rotational grazing.. In 4 years we have seen a nice improvement to our soil and overall pasture health.. I'm in Northern MN so things may be very similar.. If things continue to improve I would hope one day we can manage a fairly decent sized herd..


You're a little ahead of me. We'll have our first calves this spring and they won't be ready for 2 years so we'll be in the red 'till then. We have lowline and dexter and we were hoping to set up a little niche market for small freezer beef. 
With that much land I would think you'd be able to have a pretty good sized herd. For some reason, I've had the number 150 in my head in terms of acres needed to go full time. With lowlines and dexters I'm at a little more than 1 head/acre.
Originally I wasn't planning on leasing, but now that my ambitions have grown, I'll probably try to lease more. I only own 50 acres and only half of that is pasture. I plan on using my woods as pasture only as drought insurance.


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

M5farm said:


> If you could guarantee the market to stay at a 1000.00 a head on calves you could get close on 200 pair a year. that is providing you could keep your expense down to 500 per cow a yr.


With the price of hay right now ($20 for a big round bale) my per cow expense seems very low. I figure about $80-$80 a year per head (plus mineral, etc.). I could have a case of beginner farmer's syndrome. We'll see.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

you don't burn any fuel, electricity, pay property taxes, supplements. labor( your time cost money) fertilizer , fence work ETC


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## Oldshep (Mar 28, 2015)

Cutting your own hay makes a huge difference. Having to buy hay makes it tougher to see that kind of profit. I have sheep and some cows, nothing like what I would need to clear 50k but I started really seeing a profit when i got into haying. Not only for feed costs but resale of square bales to horse people. Haying was the missing piece that really brought the farm into the black.


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

Oldshep said:


> Cutting your own hay makes a huge difference. Having to buy hay makes it tougher to see that kind of profit. I have sheep and some cows, nothing like what I would need to clear 50k but I started really seeing a profit when i got into haying. Not only for feed costs but resale of square bales to horse people. Haying was the missing piece that really brought the farm into the black.


That's really interesting to hear. It just seems that hay is so cheap right now that it wouldn't profit. I have been going back and forth about weather I want to get into haying. Maybe I will.


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

M5farm said:


> you don't burn any fuel, electricity, pay property taxes, supplements. labor( your time cost money) fertilizer , fence work ETC


I don't burn any fuel.

Electric fence doesn't cost anything to run. It will cost something to heat water - about $400 a year for the operation. I forgot about that one. Luckily that number won't go up as my heard grows.

I pay taxes on the property anyway. If anything they'll go down.

Not sure about supplements.

I understand people figure their own labor into things, but since my labor on the farm is replacing idle time, I'm not going to figure that in. It's not the kind of thing you put on an expense sheet.

I don't fertilize.

Most fence was already in place. All I had to do was repair it. I spent less 
than $100 on portable fencing this year and that won't be a yearly expense.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

everyone does it different. When its becomes a JOB that you make your living off of you have to account for everything plus paying taxes on your income. How does your hay get to your farm??? how do you feed it to the cows??? How do you get electricity for free.?? don't say solar because you still have to buy batteries and elec fence box. Everything has a cost associated with it. What about facilities, I assume you have a set up now that will never need repair or replacing. How about vaccinations? Mortality ?


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

Im not trying to discourage you, A lot of people think because of higher prices this past year that everyone is making a mint on cattle. Its true there is more profit but a lot fail to realize that in cost of doing business has risen dramatically. When its done as sole income you have to be efficient and make sure your product is ready to market at a specific time. A drought and you have to pay 60 to 100 a roll for hay one yr and your out of business. No 2 yrs will ever be the same. therefore the avg cost of each animal has to be figured. any farmer will tell you that they may loose money 2 yrs and not balance the books till the 3rd yr or longer. A big drop in prices and your income just took a hit. Its just like any business EVERYTHING has to be accounted for. I have a small farm and I could expand today and run 300+ head a yr. I cant make it pencil out to sustain my current lifestyle which is simple at best. Im not quitting my day job anytime soon.


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## Oldshep (Mar 28, 2015)

pfettig77 said:


> That's really interesting to hear. It just seems that hay is so cheap right now that it wouldn't profit. I have been going back and forth about weather I want to get into haying. Maybe I will.


I can get $4 per bale ( small bale ) locally, and if I travel to the next state ( 2 hrs ) I get $6. Costs me about $1.50 to make a bale and that counts pretty much everything from equipment depreciation to fuel, maintenance, and hired labor. Fuel costs are low this year, if they go up my price will go up a bit. I don't sell too many round bales I just use them in-farm.

Your feed costs are another cost and they aren't cheap to feed. Cutting your own hay cuts that cost way down BUT you have to be willing to tackle that job. It means I basically spend most of the summer either haying, selling hay, stacking hay, or maintaining equipment. Not a problem if you like the work and have the time. You look around and read some of the posts here, most people saying 'it doesnt profit' are buying their hay and feed. And their probably right, if you don't produce your own feed then your profits will be slight. You produce your own feed, then you're farming


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## CircleStarRanch (Dec 24, 2010)

I'm not sure if this applicable, but I ran some numbers to try to find out if doing meat goats commercially would be profitable. The short story is that unless you can pasture feed them all or most of the year, actual cash-in-hand, breaking even is the best I could calculate. Grass hay and alfalfa are going $14 - $15.50/ bale around here and I feed grain/pellet suppliments when they are pg or lactating. I know there are many differences between cattle and meat goats, but the math is all the same! You need to count ALL money that leaves your pocket as expense. But then again you can use those same numbers doing your income taxes! 

Do your homework. It might just work for you! Good luck!

-Dutch


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

I'm not quitting my job any time soon either. I was just wondering if anyone out there is actually managing to make it with beef - specifically in the Midwest - and if so, what does the operation look like. That was my original question. I don't have the land, capital, or knowledge. I just like to fantasize about it. At this point I'd like to maybe make enough to pay my mortgage or or justify not getting a summer job or something like that.

By the way, I make a point of keeping my operation as low-cost as possible. I'm downright obsessive about it. I didn't say electricity was free, I said running a fencer doesn't cost anything, and by that I meant the cost was nearly nothing (less than a dollar a month). I buy my hay from a local and only pick it up when I happen to be going past his house so I don't have to count the cost of gas, just the difference in gas mileage which is negligible. I'll move about one bale a week about 100 feet. I may use 5 gallons of gas all winter. I don't own a 4-wheeler, and I don't do any field work with my tractor. I don't really have any facilities per se, just a machine shed where I keep my hay.


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

Oldshep said:


> I can get $4 per bale ( small bale ) locally, and if I travel to the next state ( 2 hrs ) I get $6. Costs me about $1.50 to make a bale and that counts pretty much everything from equipment depreciation to fuel, maintenance, and hired labor. Fuel costs are low this year, if they go up my price will go up a bit. I don't sell too many round bales I just use them in-farm.
> 
> Your feed costs are another cost and they aren't cheap to feed. Cutting your own hay cuts that cost way down BUT you have to be willing to tackle that job. It means I basically spend most of the summer either haying, selling hay, stacking hay, or maintaining equipment. Not a problem if you like the work and have the time. You look around and read some of the posts here, most people saying 'it doesnt profit' are buying their hay and feed. And their probably right, if you don't produce your own feed then your profits will be slight. You produce your own feed, then you're farming


Good stuff to think about. I have my summers off, so that's something to really think about. The startup cost scares me a little. I probably wouldn't have made much money on hay this summer - I paid $1.50 per square and there's a guy at church who told me he'd sell me the rest of his squares for a dollar. My neighbor said I could have his 15 acre field rent free if I would plant alfalfa and bale it. I think he just wants to attract deer. Given the price it would cost to plant it, would that be profitable?


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## Oldshep (Mar 28, 2015)

pfettig77 said:


> Good stuff to think about. I have my summers off, so that's something to really think about. The startup cost scares me a little. I probably wouldn't have made much money on hay this summer - I paid $1.50 per square and there's a guy at church who told me he'd sell me the rest of his squares for a dollar. My neighbor said I could have his 15 acre field rent free if I would plant alfalfa and bale it. I think he just wants to attract deer. Given the price it would cost to plant it, would that be profitable?


At those prices I dont why anybody would cut hay, lol. IDK just different price structure here in the northeast I guess :shrug: 

You'd have to know your area and whether or not you think that price is likely to stay low or jump up. If you can get hay for under $3 I probably wouldnt bother cutting my own.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

If the start up cost scares you there are alternatives. Start by looking at the farm service agency. Find banks that deal with farmers. I only pay once a year on my note. The cattle will be your collateral. The FSA will loan operating costs if need be at a considerable lower rate than a bank. Trying to make that much part time will be very hard. My neighbor has around 200 head and more calves hitting the ground. He bales his own but also supplements like none other. I think he has roughly 600 acres as well. Cattle prices are coming down so if that trend continues buying might be easier and hoping for the market to come back up in the future might pay off. Subsidies will also help. Coming from a dairy in the Midwest I know that growing your own will increase profit but maintaining equipment can become expensive. After a year you can figure out how much hay and feed you will need and if you bale your own you can sell the rest, which is revenue in the end. Taxes should go down being its used for ag purposes. Tons of variables that Coke into play and can sink your operation quick.


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## FarmerDavid (Jul 16, 2012)

$500 cost a cow seems pretty high to me. Thought that $380 was the average cost in 2014. 

Personally I've found its cheeper to buy hay then it is to bale my own. There's been one year in the last ten that you couldn't buy a 4x6 bale for $30 or less. Most if those you could find it at $25.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

When comparing the cost to produce your own hay versus buying hay, take into account the fertilizer, litter and seed value you get from importing hay...not just the feed value.


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## chester5731 (Jul 6, 2011)

The other aspect of hay is can you find it when you need it if you don't bale your own? That's the problem I am running in to. May be time to dig the old equipment out again.


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

FarmerDavid said:


> $500 cost a cow seems pretty high to me. Thought that $380 was the average cost in 2014.


I agree. Plus I have small animals, so the feed, which is the biggest expense, will be much lower.


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

chester5731 said:


> The other aspect of hay is can you find it when you need it if you don't bale your own? That's the problem I am running in to. May be time to dig the old equipment out again.


I live in an area where hay is coming out of our ears. Even in dry years there seems to be an abundance. That's a big plus for me I guess.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

pfettig77 said:


> I agree. Plus I have small animals, so the feed, which is the biggest expense, will be much lower.


I used a round number and realize different parts of the country are different. Here its about 450 to 480 a yr for a cow to live on my place. 

You say you have smaller animals therefore you check will be smaller t00, thru conventional sale barns


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

M5farm said:


> I used a round number and realize different parts of the country are different. Here its about 450 to 480 a yr for a cow to live on my place.
> 
> You say you have smaller animals therefore you check will be smaller t00, thru conventional sale barns


For feed alone, I figure it will cost me about $100 in hay (about 1 round bale per month during the 5 months I'm feeding hay) per year. Not quite sure yet what it'll cost to heat the water, but I figured maybe $40 per head for the winter.

Pay checks at the sales barn would be low for dexters and lowlines, but I'm going to direct market my beef.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

Things change when you have a lot of animals. expenses go way up. we used to feed about 18 to 24 rolls a day 6x6's November thru march.


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

Unless I can find some land to lease nearby, I may be near capacity anyway.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

Trying to turn the figures you want you will be hard pressed trying to cheap it through.hay is going for 55 and up for a 5x5 roll right now and that's if we are not in a drought. Should we find ourselves in one there will be a sharp increase in hay prices. Fortunately I have green pastures year round by managing correctly. To make 50 k you will need probably about 150-200 heifers. You will need bulls or someone to lease the bull from or AI. Either way more cost involved. I would make my own hay because you sell sell the excess and if your in the corn belt make your own silage. You will probably have to quit your job or hire someone to tend to the needs of your cattle daily. With prices high it makes all the difference in the world but when they fall and may continue to do you could be in a world of hurt. That's why subsidies are good and with interest low let the banks buy your cows and make it a 2 year note and make 2 payments and be done. As long as you can pay your bills and have a healthy herd you should not have a dollar sign in mind as long as you stay in the black. But since hay is everyone is concerned with hay and the cost get you a 75 horse tractor, rake, cutter, and baler round or square all used and go from there. Once it's paid for your hay expense will be fertilizer,seed, and fuel. If you have the land for 159-200 head you can cut hay and justify the expense. Just my 2 pennies!


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Direct marketing does have many advantages and a higher profit but of course you're working more too. We do this and in the right market it works well. We're in the boundries of a well off major city. You have to be responsive to the wants of your customers, nd they have read all they need to know. Organic, grassfed, pastoral farming, non-GMO. Tech free food in other words. If you can build the product it will sell but mind your marketing and market.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Most of the beef farmers I know have a spouse that works off farm in order to fund the less profitable beef farm.

If there was a failsafe method to generate $50,000. a year raising cattle, someone would recreate it 20 times over and hire someone to manage it.

I did attend a seminar that explained how to insure a profit in raising beef cattle. It involved buying a cattle futures contract, buying a corn futures contract, estimate your on farm costs and then take out your profit. From all that, you will know what price you can pay to buy calves. So, you know what you will receive when selling in the future and what your costs will be during this time. Sometimes what you get for your cattle from the contract will be lower than that day's market price, but that is just your assurance of a fixed price before you begin.

A good mechanic, that is a poor promoter of his business will go out of business faster than a bad mechanic that is a great promoter. So, if you want top prices for your beef, you must be a great promoter of your product. Keeping customers coming back is tricky. IMHO, promoting organic, humanly raised, grass finished will get you lots of interest. But, repeat business from that model suffers. 

Better to market beef as humanly raised, no added hormones, chemical free, pasture raised and pull them off pasture, switch to lots of ground corn and soybean meal for the final 8 weeks. 90% of all cattle are raised this way, but not marketed as "Special".


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

Ross said:


> Direct marketing does have many advantages and a higher profit but of course you're working more too. We do this and in the right market it works well. We're in the boundries of a well off major city. You have to be responsive to the wants of your customers, nd they have read all they need to know. Organic, grassfed, pastoral farming, non-GMO. Tech free food in other words. If you can build the product it will sell but mind your marketing and market.


That's what I plan on doing. I'm not super close to a major city, but I'm within an hour of the Twin Cities in Minnesota and I'm a little closer to the suburbs. I created a website and a facebook page but haven't promoted them much yet because I won't have steers ready 'till 2016. Do you sell frozen cuts of beef or wholes/halves?


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Better to market beef as humanly raised, no added hormones, chemical free, pasture raised and pull them off pasture, switch to lots of ground corn and soybean meal for the final 8 weeks. 90% of all cattle are raised this way, but not marketed as "Special".



I was wondering about that. I thought about offering both grain finished and grass finished but I wondered if the people who are downright "religious" about grass fed would be turned off that I also feed grain to some animals. I was also concerned about the volatility of corn prices.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

pfettig77 said:


> I was wondering about that. I thought about offering both grain finished and grass finished but I wondered if the people who are downright "religious" about grass fed would be turned off that I also feed grain to some animals. I was also concerned about the volatility of corn prices.


 It is often a fine line between honesty and lying by omission.

Nearly all cattle are pasture raised, grass fed. The cattle that get the growth hormone implant to stimulate growth, have lost those hormones in their system long before slaughter. So it would be true that all cattle do not have any added growth hormones in them at slaughter.

The largest grass finished beef survey that I'm aware of was Kroger. They use those member discount cards to trac k purchases. They marketed a lot of grass finished beef for 6 months. They did this because they had lots of requests for it. 

After 6 months, they sold a lot of grass finished beef. But, much to their surprise, no one bought it a second time. This showed there is an interest, but no repeat business. Draw your own conclusions.

Sort of like organic fruits and vegetables. Many surveys show that consumers prefer organic and will pay more for organic. But in the grocery stores, most purchases were based on price and visual quality. So the survey doesn't match the buying patterns. I think the same is true of grass finished beef.

I think you can grow your business by repeating over and over the truth and try to avoid answering specific questions.

Humanely raised, pasture raised, grass fed, no added hormones and no antibiotics. As long as you don't implant a growth hormone 6 months prior to butcher and wait 6 weeks after antibiotics are injected, your beef is free of added hormones and antibiotic free.

If you wanted to be able to say, " GMO free", feed oats for the final 3 days prior to butcher. After 3 days where wouldn't be anything GMO in those cattle.

As far as how to sell, you'll have trouble if you try to sell by the cut. Far better to sell by portion. Sell a steer to 4 people or 8 people and divide up the beef in equal parts of equal cuts.
If sale barn butcher cattle are selling for $2.00 a pound, live weight, set your price at $2.50 a pound. Get everyone's share, based on number of buyers and live weight. Then tell the slaughter facility to put together a number of boxes with equal amounts of each cut. Your customers go to the slaughter facility and pick up their box and pay their portion of slaughter fees.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

pfettig77 said:


> I was wondering about that. I thought about offering both grain finished and grass finished but I wondered if the people who are downright "religious" about grass fed would be turned off that I also feed grain to some animals. I was also concerned about the volatility of corn prices.


I do both in separate herds at separate farms. I charge $1.50 more per lb hanging weight for the grass finished because it is more expensive to produce. The grass finished is just as marbled, just as tender (or more so) with a much darker color and richer flavor. The only difference is the diet for the last 4 months and the age of the animal. 

The grain fed are typically 15-19 months old (late fall processing) and the grass finished are 24-28 months old (summer processing). It's cheaper to feed grain for the last 4 months than to feed hay all winter. I prefer grass finished as do most of my customers...but I'm happy to sell it either way.

Whatever you do...be COMPLETELY honest with your customers about what is (or ever was) in your beef and what is not (nor ever was) in it.


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

Gravytrain said:


> I do both in separate herds at separate farms. I charge $1.50 more per lb hanging weight for the grass finished because it is more expensive to produce. The grass finished is just as marbled, just as tender (or more so) with a much darker color and richer flavor. The only difference is the diet for the last 4 months and the age of the animal.
> 
> The grain fed are typically 15-19 months old (late fall processing) and the grass finished are 24-28 months old (summer processing). It's cheaper to feed grain for the last 4 months than to feed hay all winter. I prefer grass finished as do most of my customers...but I'm happy to sell it either way.
> 
> Whatever you do...be COMPLETELY honest with your customers about what is (or ever was) in your beef and what is not (nor ever was) in it.


Do you usually sell out of both grass and corn finished? Do you have a certain way or type of grass for finishing your grass finished animals? How old are you grass finished animals when you butcher? Your grass fed customers aren't put off by the fact that you sell grain finished? Seems like a lot of the people I talk to want grass finished for principle of it.


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## wannabfishin (Jan 31, 2014)

haypoint said:


> It is often a fine line between honesty and lying by omission.
> The largest grass finished beef survey that I'm aware of was Kroger. They use those member discount cards to track purchases. They marketed a lot of grass finished beef for 6 months. They did this because they had lots of requests for it.
> 
> After 6 months, they sold a lot of grass finished beef. But, much to their surprise, no one bought it a second time. This showed there is an interest, but no repeat business. Draw your own conclusions.


i was just in a krogers and they still sell grass fed beef.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

pfettig77 said:


> Do you usually sell out of both grass and corn finished?


Yes, I do it by contract. Existing customers can renew every year with a $100 deposit. There is a waiting list for new customers. If for some reason someone backs out (rare), there are always a line of people waiting for a half or whole cow.



> Do you have a certain way or type of grass for finishing your grass finished animals? How old are you grass finished animals when you butcher?


Nope...just lush pasture...typically mob grazed, with free choice mineral and fresh water. I butcher grass finished animals at the tail end of the spring flush with cattle that were born 2 springs prior...so just over 2 years old. Usually, butcher dates are easily acquired at this time of year.



> Your grass fed customers aren't put off by the fact that you sell grain finished? Seems like a lot of the people I talk to want grass finished for principle of it.


Why would they be? Grass finished is a preference, not a principle. While I agree that grass is what nature intended cattle to eat, and that it is healthier, more wholesome, tasty and nutritious... I recognize that some people do not care about this...they just want to fill their freezer with beef. 

I started raising a separate herd for grain finishing when my waiting list was full of people who didn't care whether they filled their freezer with grass finished or toothpaste finished....they needed beef in their freezer NOW! I am able to buy feeders or calves (if need be) to be able to grain finish (with locally raised grain) without worrying what they were fed prior (unlike for my grass finished customers...many or most of whom want to know that their beef was never grain fed). This way...all of my customers get what they want, and I can sleep at night knowing I'm not trying to mislead anyone.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Havn't sold beef in a while frozen but will again. Just sold as local was good enough then. I do sell lamb and chicken and the dynamics are changing. More than buzz words people want a connection to the farmer as much as anything. We'll still sell at farmers markets but we're going to build a small store on the farm too. Our stuff and selected preserves veggies etc from other local farmers.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Michigan produces a lot of chicken eggs. These facilities are generally modern and well managed.
When people wanted brown eggs, under the mistaken belief they were better, these facilities met the demand. More recently there has been an interest in eggs from organically fed hens, so they provide that. They also have adopted free range facilities and cage free housing. Some eggs are marketed from hens fed a certified vegetarian diet. Several time while grocery shopping I've observed shoppers trying to appease their beliefs, weighing the options when buying eggs.
Most shoppers want to make the humane, planet friendly choices, but lack the in depth study of each of the many choices. 

Concerned buyers want assurances that their beef is free of antibiotics and don't have any added growth hormones. Organic standards allow the use of antibiotics. Using the required hold times, you can honestly market your beef as antibiotic free. Same for growth hormones.

If you have your grain mixed locally and your local mill buys locally, you can honestly say the beef was fed locally grown grains.

If you are trying to sell grass finished beef, you can point out that most of the grass fed beef in the stores come from the lush grass pastures of Argentina. That makes your locally grown beef more desirable.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

I am coming in to add a little insight as to how I got started. I had the land from a 1031 exchange. Over time I had tried numerous farming enterprises that I tried while being employed. I worked IMO very hard and I did handle various amounts of money from different attempts but handled is the key word here. Money came in and money went out with little remaining. I decided I was either going to make and keep some money or cease my farming efforts. My conclusion as what and how I was going to do this was by controlling my input costs. I already knew that farmers buy retail and sell wholesale from my previous efforts. I bought 30 heifer feeder calves from the sale barn. I fed these heifers until they were breeding age and borrowed a bull. I got my fertilizer from poultry manure by paying for having the commercial chicken house cleaning done. It was cheap fertilizer and my grass grew great. I sold my hay equipment, held over from a prior belief that I had to make hay. I read a lot and I learned that fertilized hay, a round bale 5 x 5 typically had $28 worth of nutrient in it. I retained the nicer calves from the offspring of the heifers and started growing my herd. At the same time I was learning how to control my input costs by rotational grazing my animals. I went from feeding grass 9 months per year in non drought years to feeding grass 365 days per year in non drought. As for drought periods, I bought round bales using feeder calf income and I built a large hay storage building so I could buy and store hay when hay was abundant and cheap. I do a lot of things that are unconventional but in so doing I make money each year. Those of you reading this posting can do the same. Just figure how to get your input costs under control.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

As said you have to run the farm at a profit and keep in mind the direct to consumer segment is really a second job from farming. The profit there shouldn't be a crutch to the farm production side. It will be occasionally just ensure its occasionally!! Same holds true for making your own hay. If its what is profitable and the rest is using that that money to survive...... Drop that riskier livestock component. You should be able to buy feeds and sell animals at a profit. Or you're just making work for yourself feeding profitable hay and grain to money loosing animals.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

My old farming friend, Paul, says, "It isn't mow much money you make, what matters is how much you keep." Keep your costs low.
Paul would take down rusty barb wire fence, pull the post and turn them over and stick them back in the ground and get another 25 years out of them. His tractors are 60 years old. The paint is worn off, but they have good tires and are greased often. Paint is an expense and doesn't make it run better.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

Just started from scratch in 2010 with two angus cow calf pairs. Had a loaner bull from a neighbor the first year. Then picked up a 7 mo 3/4 lowline Bull calf. And have since picked up two 3/4 lowline heifers who should be calving the next couple of months.
Have sold several calves approx 2yo by the 1/4 hanging wt locally word of mouth keeping a 1/4 for ourseves each time. Last year we chged 5.50 lb hanging weight. Hay has not gone up this year will will probably stay with the same price. WE have been finishing with a bagged alfalfa product (Chafhaye). First time for almost three months. We have cut back each year. This year we will be trying it just one month with all the hay they want for the prior two months.
I have a question for all the pros
How long of life (productive) can I expect/hope to get out of a cow and bull.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

*[How long of life (productive) can I expect/hope to get out of a cow and bull.
/B]

My brood cows stay with me a long time provided they are producing and have no health issues. These animals are on natural grass and no concrete. I worm the ones that demonstrate a need and I do feed mineral supplements. 12 to 15 years is not uncommon for a cow. As for the bulls, I typically phase them out when they are 5 years+ old. I retain heifers but I do purchase bulls in an attempt to refresh the blood line and improve traits of the herd.*


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## pfettig77 (Oct 14, 2014)

agmantoo said:


> I am coming in to add a little insight as to how I got started. I had the land from a 1031 exchange. Over time I had tried numerous farming enterprises that I tried while being employed. I worked IMO very hard and I did handle various amounts of money from different attempts but handled is the key word here. Money came in and money went out with little remaining. I decided I was either going to make and keep some money or cease my farming efforts. My conclusion as what and how I was going to do this was by controlling my input costs. I already knew that farmers buy retail and sell wholesale from my previous efforts. I bought 30 heifer feeder calves from the sale barn. I fed these heifers until they were breeding age and borrowed a bull. I got my fertilizer from poultry manure by paying for having the commercial chicken house cleaning done. It was cheap fertilizer and my grass grew great. I sold my hay equipment, held over from a prior belief that I had to make hay. I read a lot and I learned that fertilized hay, a round bale 5 x 5 typically had $28 worth of nutrient in it. I retained the nicer calves from the offspring of the heifers and started growing my herd. At the same time I was learning how to control my input costs by rotational grazing my animals. I went from feeding grass 9 months per year in non drought years to feeding grass 365 days per year in non drought. As for drought periods, I bought round bales using feeder calf income and I built a large hay storage building so I could buy and store hay when hay was abundant and cheap. I do a lot of things that are unconventional but in so doing I make money each year. Those of you reading this posting can do the same. Just figure how to get your input costs under control.


I am using the "agmantoo model" of operation - especially keeping costs low - so I hope to be able to make this profitable. My only issue is lack of land. I have about 50 acres and half is good pasture and half is wooded. I'm sure I'll have to lease land if I want to really make a go of it. Has anyone done the math on how much land would have to cost per acre to make that an effective strategy?


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

Thanks Agmantoo. 
When you phase out a bull is it generally sold to someone who is going to use it for breeding or just off to the sale barn for whatever happens. 
We are very happy with our lowline bull and will part with him reluctantly when the time comes unless he becomes unproductive or unruly. 
If we where to keep him as long as possible what kinda productive life span can we hope for?


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

The people around me usually charge 10 an acre per year but it's up to he land owner. It can be enough to cover taxes or enough to turn a profit. Generally speaking of it not a hunting lease it will be cheaper. Some people just want their land tended to or get lower taxes and that's incentive enough for them.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

Cheap pasture here is around 55$ acre good pasture is 100 an acre


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Alaska said:


> Thanks Agmantoo.
> When you phase out a bull is it generally sold to someone who is going to use it for breeding or just off to the sale barn for whatever happens.
> We are very happy with our lowline bull and will part with him reluctantly when the time comes unless he becomes unproductive or unruly.
> If we where to keep him as long as possible what kinda productive life span can we hope for?


I have loaned bulls to startup cattle folks. Other times I market them through the sale barn. I work my bulls more than most feeder calf producers as I run the entire herd together all year. I have only 2 bulls and the herd size at this time is slightly above 100 brood cows. The reason that I calve throughout the year is that I want to avoid marketing when the bulk of producers sell. In doing so I figure that I will not be marketing a years production when the prices are lowest or when they are the highest. I want the average and I think the risk is minimized. Also, having a single herd reduces management issues and is more efficient for me. I do neuter all bull calves for the same reasons

IMO, a well cared for bull should be productive for 8 years+.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

agmantoo said:


> I have loaned bulls to startup cattle folks. Other times I market them through the sale barn. I work my bulls more than most feeder calf producers as I run the entire herd together all year. I have only 2 bulls and the herd size at this time is slightly above 100 brood cows. The reason that I calve throughout the year is that I want to avoid marketing when the bulk of producers sell. In doing so I figure that I will not be marketing a years production when the prices are lowest or when they are the highest. I want the average and I think the risk is minimized. Also, having a single herd reduces management issues and is more efficient for me. I do neuter all bull calves for the same reasons
> 
> IMO, a well cared for bull should be production for 8 years.


 Do you not separate out the young heifers.
We also are calving year round with are small operation hoping to keep the bull happy and wanting to have a supply for our customers on a regular basis.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

*[Do you not separate out the young heifers./B]

I do not separate the heifers. My bulls are bought to be generators of low birth weight calves. I do as I stated neuter the male calves as they tend to service the younger heifers. I am not denying that I do occasionally have a light weight heifer to have a calving difficulty. Over time I have observed that grass fed only heifers tend to reach sexual maturity and heavier weights slower than grain fed heifers. I acknowledge that by calving year round that I often have a heifer rebreed within 45 to 60 days of calving. In time I will gain a calf over those who limit access of the bull for a Fall or Spring calving crop. As stated I do keep my cows that perform a long time. Once a heifer delivers a live calf unaided the risk from her having issues with delivery are normally behind her for her duration with me. If I do have a calving problem that doesn't result in a live calf, I do not retain the cow or heifer regardless of why. Flighty or overly aggressive new mother cows leave also. I am a one man show and I have to be able to treat new calves in the pasture by myself without undue concern.*


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