# A different perspective



## SimplerTimez (Jan 20, 2008)

Normally I wouldn't post content without linking to the origin, but the origin of this is not a family-friendly site and HT remains a family-viewed site.

We have a lot of posts touting the strength of women, and everyone here knows women can do lots of stuff. But I found this post of interest due to a discussion it exploded on another site. It's not meant to do anything but invoke some thoughtful discussion about the changing roles that have occurred over the last sixty years, and to give the guys a little 'love' since there is so much smacking on men that gets done.

It's a difficult time to maneuver partnering these days, for both genders. 

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D_espite all of the advantages that contemporary women have, despite all of their advances, despite their achievements and the respect they have rightly earned for them, many seem strangely dissatisfied with the romantic or mate potential of the men that surround them. Ironic, as increasingly more men are adapting to the new egalitarian roles of the sexes: playing by womenâs rules in the office, helping out in the home and with children, and abiding by the increasing number of rules and regulations that women in charge think essential. Most men quietly bear the scathing and sometimes blatantly dishonest media stereotypes of themselves as clueless, doltish, thick-headed animals in need of training and, often without complaint, accept the modern feminine mythos that women are spiritually, emotionally, and mentally superior to their sex in all ways. Other men, still a minority, choose quietly to opt out and not play by female rules which cause them to deny their true selves. After being disenfranchised by a vagina-positive society they are now self-disenfranchising as a response: they donât go to college, they donât enter the increasingly feminized workplace, and they are, in rising numbers, refusing to marry or even engage in long-term romantic relationships. Young women, in fact, are becoming increasingly resigned to the âhookupâ (temporary ----buddy) culture and even adopting it as their own.

Once the heady draught of freedom and wide-open opportunities has worn off, once the busy intensity of striving for success and competing in oneâs early adult years has passed and a woman finds herself well-established in her career or other endeavors, she, more and more frequently, looks around at the available men and feels a bleak, sinking feeling in her stomach. The members of the mating pool she finds herself in just donât turn her on. Assuming some of these males meet the modern womanâs illogically high achievement/professional standards for a man (no matter how successful women areâand the converse: how unsuccessful men are in a female-run societyâthe majority of women still want to âmarry upâ into a more privileged class), the men seem emotionally lacking. Boring. Unexciting. Toadies. Yes Men. Passive. Weak. Overly Cooperative. Feminized. Repressed. Office Boys. Factotums. Metrosexuals. Milquetoasts. Unvirile. Manginas. These are some of the words that go through a dismayed womanâs mind when it finally turns to love, marriage, and family and she starts to survey that unfamiliar and surprisingly bleak landscape, looking for something out there, someONE out there with potential. The old adage, âA good man is hard to find,â has taken on a special meaning in the minds and hearts of many contemporary women.

The core truth being experienced in these âwonderful, exciting timesâ by thousands of successful, modern women is that they emotionally (and, some would say, illogically) crave a âreal man,â someone they can look up to and respect, someone with âtraditionalâ male traits, someone their bodies and hearts, despite the mental overlay of feminist propaganda, tell them is an âappropriateâ mate. Sadly, this man is almost nowhere to be foundâparticularly in the places such women are looking. The boring, repressed, politically correct behavior and roles weâve forced on most males in developed countries just do not stir our loins. Heâs a breeze to work with (or to âorganize,â if you happen to be married to him), he may be extremely skilled at pleasing in bed, but he just doesnât inspire the sort of passion, intensity and deep, exciting, committed romance that most women crave in a relationship with a man.

Why is that? There are many reasons as this is a complex issue, but the primary reason is simple: we (members of rich, developed societies) simply do not allow men to be themselves these days and somewhere deep inside both men and women know this: both sexes recognize this social-political lie. What is a man like when he is most himself? That is what this editorial will explore, in the hopes that it will provide a compass for women who feel lost at sea when it comes to love, relationships, and romance.

There are certain personality features and inclinations that most men are born with and that naturally emerge as he grows, if not artificially stifled. Some of these traits are purposefully repressed by parents and teachers as boys transform into men. Others have little place to express themselves in todayâs world and so are ignored. Itâs a sad fact of life that up until as recently as 40 years ago, the majority of men used to express these traits naturally, exuberantly, and, dare I say, aggressively. But male aggression is a big-no-no these days, along with many of the other traits I am about to discuss. Nevertheless, they are what make men âmen,â and, when you look at the secret fantasy lives of many women or examine the âbedside booksâ they read when nobody is around, youâll find they abound with romantic male characters that embody these basic male traits, despite their political incorrectness. Sadly, the only place real men are allowed to exist in most womenâs mental landscapes is in this lets-pretend world of fantasy, wishes, and idealistic dreams, a landscape built by thinly-disguised BDSM dreams and male-dominance romance novels. We cannot accept the genuine article when we encounter him because he doesnât follow the neat, orderly, and overly safe feminine rules for behavior. No matter how much our deeper selves crave his guidance and energizing touch, that latter fact really ----es us off. He is a real man: he is himself and there is nothing a rules-bound overly feminized society hates more than someone who wonât play by âtheir rules.â

Of course there are evil men (and evil women, too). But Iâm going to speak below of the very best traits that men can possess and that the majority of good men will express, if given the freedom to do so.



Their Minds

What woman who has been around men much has failed to notice that they think differently than us? Iâm not talking about differences in interests or focus, Iâm talking about the thought processes themselves. Male brains, at their best, travel down logical, clean, brightly-lit paths. They take few side-trips down the murky emotional byways that constantly waylay female minds and, as a result, the conclusions men quickly arrive at are often sane, coherent, and objective. Listening to a man reason and then come up with simple and often elegant conclusions feels like diving into a fresh pool of cool, clear water. Menâs minds get quickly to the point. They do so often by ignoring the emotional overtones of an issue. While this is sometimes confused with a lack of subtlety, I see it more as a clean, strong focus on the point itself, rather than how it makes one feel.

Iâve tried to imitate this style of thinking, but even at my best I have a tendency, present in many female minds, to overcomplicate issues and worry about things that have not happened. This causes me to find convoluted solutions to problems that, while they try to avoid or prevent possible contingencies, do so by jumping through far too many hoops. They are not optimal solutions because they waste energy and resources getting around imagined âbad stuff that might happen.â Most men do not have this conservative, risk-avoidance instinct and, as a result, their solutions are clearer, more elegant, and, in my experience, far more likely to work than my own. They are able to see what is important about a situation because they are less distracted by the trivial. They see the forest, the big picture, not the trees. Seeing the trees has its place, mind you, but not when making sweeping decisions or when facing a serious crisis. At those times you need to see the whole picture, not the tiny aspects of it that many a female mind will hover around and get lost in contemplating.

Most men seem quite facile at thinking spatially, abstractly, and tactically. These are traits I (and many women I know) have admitted are not our best. I get easily lost, for example. I have trouble with even simple math, and I suck at strategy war games. I greatly admire the average manâs ability to think well in these practical, and, at one time, essential-to-survival areas.



Their Emotional Sets

One of the reasons I believe men think more clearly than women is because they are not besieged by tidal waves of emotion that rock their mental boats and steer them off course. While I enjoy the company of sincere, good-hearted women, I enjoy even more being around men because they seem immune to the emotional tsunamis that plague even the best female minds. Men are generally positive and upbeat, and, if not overly influenced by female-dominated online culture, far less snide and snarky than the average woman. Overall, men seem to give women a lot more credit than they deserve. When the typical modern woman looks at a man she thinks, âGuilty until proven innocent!â When the typical modern man looks at a woman, he feels she is innocent or good until proven guilty. This noble and charitable attitude is one that would improve many woman if they were to practice it. It is the unsuspicious and magnanimous attitude of someone well-born, someone with manners who has been taught to respect all individuals unless theyâve clearly demonstrated that they are unworthy of it. The word for this simple quality that so many men naturally possess is ânobility.â

Part of a manâs positive emotional force comes from the ways in which he thinks: he does not start out overcomplicating matters by worrying about âwhat-ifâ scenarios. If he wants to do something, he simply does it. If itâs something heâs never done before, he doesnât spend hours researching it and figuring out from others the best route to take: he just plunges right in. This lack of overcomplication and worry is incredibly refreshing to be around and helps ground me when I get lost in the paralyzing fantasy clouds of âwhat if THIS happened?â Men live their lives by that old Nike slogan: they Just Do It. Itâs a marvelously simple and free way to live.

Overall, men seem more patient, accepting, and forgiving than women. They certainly put up with far more emotional games and subterfuges from us than we are willing to accept from them! Men can get very angry when they are roused, but, at the same time, most men have a slow fuse. Not only do they not fly instantly off the handle but they seem willing to put up with a huge about of female BS before they finally decide theyâve had enough. Even the firm, dominant men that I associate with do this. You donât, for example, see most men viciously and vindictively trashing a womanâs reputation online simply because she was late once for a date.

Men are far less prone to hysteria and âlosing itâ in emergencies. Should I find myself in a terrible crisis, I would be greatly relieved if a man were there to help plan the best course of action. Far too often women in a state of crisis succumb to panic or irrationally focus on trivialities that have little bearing on the overall problem.

Men, at their best, are wonderfully direct and transparent: what you see is what you get. I greatly admire a manâs natural, bright honesty and directness and strive hard to act the same. Men, when compared to women, have a strong sense of fairness, justice, and balance. They donât hold grudges because someone used the âwrongâ word or wore the same outfit that they are wearing. They lack the pettiness that all too often plagues the female heart and causes her to place deep import on irrelevant events, magnify imagined slights, and even delight in causing discomfort to others.



Their Powers of Creation

When something breaks in the house, who does the average woman turn to? A man, usually. Throughout history (and, I suspect, prehistory) men have been the primary builders, makers, fixers, and general creators in this world. Most lasting, most âgreatâ creative works of art or music, books, theories, architectural marvels, and so on have a male mind behind them. There is a creative force in men that is at the heart of their virility, their maleness, and when they harness it to a worthwhile project or vision, they often come close to making miracles happen. Feminist âscientificâ literature is full of theories about why most great creative works were done by men. This impolite little fact of life makes them furious. (Because we all know women are supposed to be better than men in everything, right?) But the fact of the matter is, the average man is better at making things, better at fixing things that get broken, better at conceiving of paradigm-shifting ideas that profoundly change the ways we think about the world, and, overall, far more creative than the average woman.

Perhaps some of this is due to a manâs ability to make sense out of spatial information, his often superior eye-hand coordination, or the fact that the skills men exercised throughout history encouraged and supported the development of creative thinking. Whatever it is, I deeply admire men for their ability to envision something new that has never been seen or heard before and then create it. Or perhaps they envision it as they create it? However itâs done, itâs extremely impressive and often makes a profound difference in the ways we all live. When I drive a car instead of walking to work or read a cell phone text instead of waiting days or weeks for a letter or ride in an elevator instead of climbing the stairs, I am quite aware that I wouldnât have such useful conveniences if a male mind hadnât conceived of and then solved the complex problems around building them. I rejoice in and am deeply grateful for menâs immense creativity and practical genius.



Their Fighting Spirits

I love and deeply admire male bravery. Men constantly take risks in life, they leap in when things are unsure, they are willing and able to fight for whatâs important. They donât constantly try to avoid danger like the average risk-aversive woman; instead, they will respond quickly and decisively in times of crisis. The typical man is far more likely than a woman to face danger with aggression and try to overcome it. Men value the development of their physical skills and thrive in competitive environments. Quite clearly, many of the recreational sports most enjoyed by men employ lightly disguised versions of battle practices. Men enjoy excelling physically: being faster, stronger, more agile, more stealthy than the other guy. They enjoy physical action immensely, even simulated physical action, and seem to thrive on danger and riskâthings most women dislike and do not seek out.

If you visit Youtube.com and watch some guyâs game video where heâs running from monsters who are everywhere and dying constantly in horrible ways heâs usually chortling with intense glee. As a woman watching these scenarios I think, âIs he out of his mind? What is fun about this extremely stressful situation?â I donât get it but Iâm very glad men are naturally physically aggressive and even enjoy it, as I am not. Iâd rather hide in a closet from the monsters! Seriously, I feel safe and protected when in the company of a man. I know his fighting skills are better than my own and that if we did face a crisis he would be able to direct the best course of action to take in response to it. On my own, Iâd be likely to panic or freeze up, and then perhaps face, as I do over and over in video games, a needless death due to my unwillingness to take a risk and engage in a stressful, fast-paced confrontation.



Their Natural Abilities to Lead

All of the traits described above make a man into a natural and logical leader. A manâs objectivity and ability to think clearly and strategically without the confusing haze of emotion or fantasy; his action-oriented, risk-taking personality; his creativity and trailblazing abilities; his natural aggressiveness; and his overall largeness of spirit makes him an ideal person to follow. Unlike the current cultural myths, many men, if allowed to be themselves, will rise to greatness, will take charge of situations and make rational, fair decisions that result in more people being helped than harmed. They are natural leaders. Men are protective and possessive, as well, toward those in their charge. If he is allowed to develop naturally and with strong male role models, it is second nature for a man to take good care of those he leads and cares for. When needed, they donât operate on automatic or âby the rulesâ: they are flexible and strategic risk-takers. Finally, men have an extremely valuable trait that all good leaders need: they are persistent. They do not give up easily, at the first or even the tenth frustration. They keep looking for a solution, a way through, a way to fix things. For all of these reasons, I find it deeply disturbing that menâs natural leadership talents are so often these days ignored, seen as unimportant, or even ridiculed in favor of the overly-detailed, inflexible, monotonous, fastidious rules-following corporate mentality that far too many women today identify with leadership.



Postscript

To anticipate a question that may be in the minds of some as they finish this piece, yes, of course, women have good qualities too. Whoever said they didnât? In fact, these good qualities are talked about everywhereâabsolutely everywhere. Every place you go, everything you read in this âgirls rule-boys droolâ society is immensely female-positive, often at the expense of men who are contrasted with the âgreatnessâ of women as bumbling but trainable fools at best; insane and violent criminals at worst. But where is the goodness, the greatness that is man, talked about? The honest answer is: almost nowhere these days. Iâm simply trying to redress that immense imbalance with a few reminders of why we are all not lesbians, why so many of us women still love and even adore the delightfully-different-from-us man in our livesâ¦provided we can find one.

_
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Food for thought...?

~ST


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## JohnnyLee (Feb 13, 2011)

Yeah, I am totally disenfranchised by a vagina-positive society, so what, we all have our parts. Did they think once they ruled the earth they would get a cookie?

Nah, not from this kid.


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## SimplerTimez (Jan 20, 2008)

I've shared this with different ages and mixed genders. It never fails to at least generate conversation. The young women of today don't know any other world view, and they get really torqued when they read it. That amazed me - how well that agenda has been driven into them. I don't think they even know it. I'm not sure that a lot of my generation are aware of how much it has saturated things either.

I've lived long enough to see both worlds, and while I think there have been definite positives in some ways, I also see a lot of detriment, and anger - on both sides of the gender lines.

~ST


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## JohnnyLee (Feb 13, 2011)

Too wrongs don't make a right.

Kind of like all this reverse discrimination going on these days. Is there any wonder I want to live in the middle of nowhere?


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## SimplerTimez (Jan 20, 2008)

I agree, there has to be balance. That seems what is lacking, like we can't get a good middle bead where everyone is valued for their inherent selves. 

I'm taking it to my daughter tomorrow. If I don't return by this weekend, you'll know she garroted me or something, lol!

~ST


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## JohnnyLee (Feb 13, 2011)

AND I HAVE been a stay at home dad, and not even to my own children (I don't have any kids), but there are boundaries that should never get crossed.

I was better at a lot of things than my ex-wife was, especially cooking, but that is only because I have worked in restaurants since I was 15, and my mom is/was the best cook in Oklahoma. Heck, I even ran TWO of my own restaurants when I was younger and could work 12 hours a day on my feet. AND I had to endure the comments of me making someone a "good wife" from both sexes. Sorry to say, the days of the "straight white male" are numbered.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

That's an awesome post.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

I'll be a stick in the mud. I dont' think this is a male-female thing at all. Maybe I truly live on a different planet out here in Ecotopia...land of the Goddess n Green Man, organic dirt feast and anarchistic fresh air...

I read her comparisons and summations of what makes male female and I see myself having a lot of qualities she describes as male strengths. I have plenty of female friends who are also "butchy" in this way who are also fully feminine(whatever that is per the writer). I see all that list of strengths as qualities that strong, enlightened if you will, fully awake PEOPLE have. Like I've said before, I've found men to have a rich and profound emotional life--although yeah (and rightly so perhaps) they are more picky who they reveal that to. 

I think the root of all this is that we are getting away from what makes us HUMAN, what evolution has evolved in us to survive and thrive on earth. She mentions modern convieniences so she doesn't have to walk stairs or wait patiently. Good lord, the other day as I was dragging home small trees to cut up for firewood I was noting the bigger ones I could tote home when my man friend comes to help me...and then drooled a little at the thought of cooking supper WITH him with things I've grown in my garden, lighting a candle sitting down to eat and have good conversation, heating water on the woodstove to wash off before bed, ladling the warm water over our backs and feeling the quiet roll of water warm down along our curves, then to bed in the quiet so quiet you can hear the fog descending in the trees. And then the animal noises start. Oops, sorry haha.

Yeah, no tv, no cell phones(horrible reception out here), no water heater(took it out to redo the floor and may not hook it back up...). I had to wait some minutes for the water to warm, a few months for the chard and potatoes, a few years for this new home, 45 years to find this particular friend.

I live in an area with a wonderful mix of hippies, loggers, farmers, ********, back to the landers, all those waiting for Armageddon to push that huge reset button that will sweep away all this Californication and wussification that the cush of modern life infests. And in the meanwhile having a Big Think on how to live well in a village when McDonalds can't fry a burger no more no more.

The greatness of men IS talked about AND appreciated and enjoyed deeply by great women. Thing is you won't find it in pop culture, the mainstream/crowd control media. Those outlets are stupid anyway, why even try to find such a thing there??? get out in REAL LIFE, live it full throttle and wow, those "real men" start coming out of the woodwork like magic. 

Of course proximity to Alaska greatly improves the odds haha. 

Lastly, to this...
"If you visit Youtube.com and watch some guy&#8217;s game video where he&#8217;s running from monsters who are everywhere and dying constantly in horrible ways he&#8217;s usually chortling with intense glee. As a woman watching these scenarios I think, &#8220;Is he out of his mind? What is fun about this extremely stressful situation?&#8221;* I don&#8217;t get it* but I&#8217;m very glad men are naturally physically aggressive and even enjoy it, as I am not. I&#8217;d rather hide in a closet from the monsters! Seriously, I feel safe and protected when in the company of a man. I know his fighting skills are better than my own and that if we did face a crisis he would be able to direct the best course of action to take in response to it. On my own, I&#8217;d be likely to panic or freeze up, and then perhaps face, as I do over and over in video games, a needless death due to my unwillingness to take a risk and engage in a stressful, fast-paced confrontation."

Life is a beach and then you die baby. Cowgirl Up. Be a capable contributing member of the team. And that team will love your brains out for it.*

*And for those that will say well all girls can't be strong and kill monsters, I say faith and hope and love is the strongest thing of all. Men know this.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

And one more thing, this woman writer needs to wake up to the billions of women around the world that fight the monsters and die horrible deaths. Her view of what women "are" in reality is very insulated, priveleged, spoiled, naive, etc. IMO of course ha.

So where did this article come from? source? link? 

Ugh, the more I read this the more I get perturbed ha.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I crave a traditional man? That is news to me! I am actually grateful that my husband has modern values. Not every woman wants the same kind of man, which is good because it means that every man has a chance at love and joy.

Men are natural leaders? Have you ever seen a Mother get her 6 kids working together in harmony? The Mother is leading.

Nobody is a "natural" leader, this is something that people-men or not- work hard to learn and continue to work on. Saying it comes naturally is not giving them credit for there hard work an effort!

This article has much to say that I admire! Seriously! Men that the article describes are to be admired.... but modern men deserve admiration also.

Personally, I admire the more modern man the most!


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Folks, please remember this is a family-friendly site! That includes any sites that you may want to post an address to.


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## SimplerTimez (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks Terri, I was trying to preserve that limit.

In response though to mistleoad's perception, here is my response.

Actually, it does not say it all. Do you mean to intimate that someoneâs personal lifestyle choices render their valid points moot? If so, since I am not Christian, then I should automatically invalidate everything I hear from a Christian, regardless if it contains a fact or not. Or since I am not a Republican, I should disregard everything they say because of their lifestyle/belief choice. Or perhaps I should disregard an atheist as well â in other words only *my* views have value if I align with your values. Examining different perspectives, whether you agree with them or not, is what keeps a person aware and the mind active instead of stagnant and closed. It doesnât mean youâre going to change, but it does make you more aware.

She mixes facts and opinions, like we all do. You can deride the facts if you wish, based on her lifestyle, but that doesnât make them non-facts. Opinions? Much more up for grabs and greatly influenced by lifestyle, belief systems, etc. 

What cannot be avoided is that there is a continuing belittlement of men in media in all forms, and an exaltation of women, in perhaps an overblown reparation of sorts for some true, and some perceived, wrongs. The other thing that cannot be avoided is that lots of men are angry, and lots of both men and women are confused as all get out. Factually the divorce rate has skyrocketed and families have disintegrated rapidly along with the rise of the v-world, as Johnny Lee named it. Are they cause and effect? I donât know. But they are still factual things that are happening.

It is always fair game here on this forum to bash men. A few times I have seen woman bashing as well. I simply wanted to present a differing perspective to open discussion, and to hear what the men had to say. The women, well, we all have our says quite regularly here. Where is their voice? 

~ST


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

OK, wow, I just found where this editorial came from. No wonder you didnt post the link. 

I always strive to know the background of a writer, and see the venue to further understand the agenda. Not my bag at all...and before you say I'm a prude "I have a best friend that is..." yayaya.

Ha, my instinct to slap her upside the head was correct, except she woulda enjoyed it and totally missed my point. 

She is simply unbalanced to the other side of the spectrum, nothing new to add to the table. THE REAL QUESTION IS

What makes a real human being? Answer that and all the gender crap doesn't matter anymore and stuff works itself out and all the wonderful variations of human are included in the celebrating village. 

Sorry SimplerTimes I don't mean to bag on you, I'm reacting to the author. But her agenda/marketing of her site is heavily the thing in what she writes. She's preaching to the choir.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

My only objection with the first post is as a poster not as a moderator. Time after time it says things like "_What woman who has been around men much has failed to notice "_

This implies that this is true for all men and all women.

My MIL preferred a traditional man because she wanted somebody to take care of and who would take care of her. I cannot argue with that as the heart wants what the heart wants! But my heart prefers the modern man! There is not a thing wrong with the man of today!

Unless, of course, a woman who prefers a traditional man is trying to make a modern man take his place. You cannot marry a man and then try to mold him like he was a piece of clay: that NEVER works out well!!!!!!

As for bashing, of any sort, I dislike it strongly. Neither gender should be bashed. Ever.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

I dont' disregard what she says because of lifestyle choice, I disregard because it goes halfway and doesn't get to the meat of the question. 

And I'm a better dominatrix than she is. My tools are pie and a hella big yes. (said tongue in uh, cheek)


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## SimplerTimez (Jan 20, 2008)

I agree, there are some generalities and broad brush strokes present in her opinions. No one thing works for all people, in all situations. We see the same when people present opinions on anything really.

I posted it for discussion content, from all angles. And that is what is happening 

There was a debate (rather heated) that I stumbled across at another site, and thought it would be good fodder for discussion here.

~ST


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## SimplerTimez (Jan 20, 2008)

wyld thang said:


> <snip>
> Sorry SimplerTimes I don't mean to bag on you, I'm reacting to the author. But her agenda/marketing of her site is heavily the thing in what she writes. She's preaching to the choir.


No offense taken. If I was easily rattled, I'd not post some of the things that I do  Heck, Vicker has been harsher on me than you 

I like discussion. I like for people to think. Sometimes that means stepping out of the box and expected agenda. For that? Thick skin I got. I only get wounded in love easily 

~ST


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

SimplerTimez said:


> No offense taken. If I was easily rattled, I'd not post some of the things that I do  Heck, Vicker has been harsher on me than you
> 
> I like discussion. I like for people to think. Sometimes that means stepping out of the box and expected agenda. For that? Thick skin I got. I only get wounded in love easily
> 
> ~ST


Cool  I'm just fresh from walking in that "scene" a little with a friend, in the way of observing and thinking--it's not for me. I'm too wild and unruly and frankly I scare them. What gets me, is that a lot of that stuff is a way to process deep scarring pain, only to exchange one prison for another...the only improvement perhaps is your jailer is chosen.

Mainstream media? I checked out a long time ago. I have real conversation with real friends over real food with a chaser of real music, in clean air with clean water and a good night's sleep. Live the Real Life and that stuff doesn't have any power any more.

BE the change you wish to see.

"complete female submission to exemplary male dominance is what this web site community is all about"--that is the perspective the writer is coming from, just as bad as what she complains about the vaginafication of the world.

I am DEF not a good candidate for that choir ha!


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

dang it! so biting my tongue, I hope you mods appreciate my level of self discipline today! I had to get out the handcuffs!


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## SimplerTimez (Jan 20, 2008)

LOL, feel free to PM me if you wish WT, we can continue the discussion.

~ST


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Oh no, I hope I wasn't all that harsh  I never intend to be. But, I don't remember.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

SimplerTimez said:


> What cannot be avoided is that there is a continuing belittlement of men in media in all forms, and an exaltation of women, in perhaps an overblown reparation of sorts for some true, and some perceived, wrongs. The other thing that cannot be avoided is that lots of men are angry, and lots of both men and women are confused as all get out. Factually the divorce rate has skyrocketed and families have disintegrated rapidly along with the rise of the v-world, as Johnny Lee named it. Are they cause and effect? I donât know. But they are still factual things that are happening.
> 
> It is always fair game here on this forum to bash men. A few times I have seen woman bashing as well. I simply wanted to present a differing perspective to open discussion, and to hear what the men had to say. The women, well, we all have our says quite regularly here. Where is their voice?
> 
> ~ST


Trying to keep on topic haha--the exaltation of women/degradation of men... It's the exaltation of a certain kind of woman, again, remember media is a huge marketing tool to drive an economy, sell product and control a bunch of people to preserve the profit. Encouraging people to share and use less and take care of their neighbors and be strong and independent thinking and even gol dang HEALTHY is NOT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE MACHINE!!!!

While some of it, in the beginning, was reparation of a sort, again it was highjacked by the machine.

Control of people...how do you emasculate freedom loving men? take away their strong women. Turn it all into bread and circuses, tranquilize with Twinkies and Viagra. 

Strong, capable, inventive(unless it's Windows 57), resourceful(unless you can find another use for jellied cow hooves), creative, peaceful, compassionate, healthy people dont' make money for the machine.


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## JohnnyLee (Feb 13, 2011)

wyld thang said:


> ... out here in Ecotopia...land of the Goddess n Green Man, organic dirt feast and anarchistic fresh air...


Wow, that sounds like paradise!

[youtube]1G4isv_Fylg[/youtube]


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

Thanks, ST, for at least the attempt to give us guys some positive press. It was received, however, much as I expected. Where is our voice? Shouted down as antiquated rhetoric; demeaned as sexist, defensive diatribe; scorned as arguing from the wrong premise; and sadly, stilled by us because we see the absolute futility in trying to be understood, much less appreciated for what we are innately. Victors rewrite history; women hold all the cards and will until ? So, we who will not in good conscience play by these new rules, withdraw. Or, if blessed with females around us who accept, if not appreciate who and what we are, live quietly under the radar and avoid attention. eep:


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

I pretty much agree with the article and this post inspired a few conversations today. The issue is something DD sees and is bothered by every day in HS, especially this week. It's Homecoming week with Senior Auction. Senior boys were purchased by the girls in the school, every one of them are being made to wear dresses and tutus to school every day, and do other humiliating things. Some get into it, most do not.

Last week there were words between a masculine male and another boy. He whined to DD, who attempted to call up his masculinity. He groveled to the V, she tried again, she said he got confused. He didn't get it, totally V conditioned. She said next time this happens she will tell the boy to get out of the V-Trix!

I like securely masculine men. I like how their brains work, it's different from mine. GFs get bogged down in feelings when trying to talk. The guys get straight to the issue, 1, 2, 3, problem solved, move on to fun. When something happens, these men step up without thinking. They aren't afraid to do stuff.

The best thing about happy masculine men is, if they're being men, then I don't have to. I can be in feminine energy, be the girl and be happy. There are very few of them anymore and they aren't readily available.

I'm shocked at the number of men who present their emasculation by their xw as a desirable quality. I'm shocked when it happens, a great possibility drops to zero attraction in one sentence.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I think some people have watched too many John Wayne movies.


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## DUlrich (Dec 31, 2008)

arcticow said it really well. Most are smart enough now to keep themselves  ...


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I'm up this late, because my dad woke me up, right after I laid down, wanting to know what time we needed to be at his Dr. appointment. He has cancer, and is suffering from dementia, and thought it was 14:30. Now he's wide awake. I'm a caretaker, I'm his caretaker , and I'm comfortable with that. As a matter of fact, i like that. I have never known a woman in my life who is comfortable with the fact that I am a gentle, caring man. They seem to want me to tell them how to act, take control, get mad, be a man... I'm just me, and I only expect other people to be themselves. Women and men are not that different, if they are different at all. We are all individuals that cover the whole spectrum. If you want to act like you think you are suppose to act, have at it. I'll just be me. Oh, and I'm one hell of a man.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Vicker, I consider you to be one of the more securely masculine males here. Being a caretaker is a masculine trait.

The need to control others and being mad show insecurities, not masculine strength.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

TCM is showing Kim Novak movies tonight. Now there is a REAL woman.  Just kidding. How about that movie with John Wayne and Katherine Hepburn, Rooster Cogburn? That's what I like. When people are themselves, are whole, and strong, and find they like one another. Of course, not everyone in this world can be that way. They look for crutches, someone else to fix the broken parts of themselves. Sometimes that works nicely too.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Good God, who of us are whole and strong? The best we can hope for is to find the perfect crutch.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

It was a good movie, they built trust and respect. I don't particularly care for loud cranky characters though. Good thing they were in the wilderness, lots of space.

I think all of us are a little broken. What we can hope for is someone to be a healing balm, and we to them, and guard each other's vulnerabilities. To actually be able to trust someone to have your back while you watch mine. I don't think that's a crutch. It's God driven desire.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

The thing is, the perfect "crutch" is within ourselves, ultimately.

Being in a master slave relationship so one can feel fulfilled? (referring to the original article and it's gateway positioning into the agenda of the writer and community). No way in hell or heaven I buy that. If someone else wants to buy that, fine. Lucky someone who's btdt can shed a light on exactly what you're buying so you can make an informed choice.

SO hard to determine illusion and reality, hardest work of all. The article IS reactionary and swings way over to the other side(again I'm taking in the whole of the agenda), just as bad as the feminazis. We're still in a divisive defensive place, talking in terms of male/female, us/them. When we can use the language of "human" and "we" then we're getting somewhere.


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## doingitmyself (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm still not sure what all the OP was about. Did i miss it? Or was it all over the place??:shrug:


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

> SO hard to determine illusion and reality, hardest work of all. The article IS reactionary and swings way over to the other side(again I'm taking in the whole of the agenda), just as bad as the feminazis. We're still in a divisive defensive place, talking in terms of male/female, us/them. When we can use the language of "human" and "we" then we're getting somewhere


 Both positions are Fear driven. This is not the true Masculine or Feminine, it is negative energy.

Most people possess both feminine and masculine energy. Not everyone can comfortably shift between them when needed. People have a difficult time shifting up and down. It takes secure people to keep the M/F polarity shifting in positive directions.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

A motorcycle is an excellent shifter teacher


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Yeah, yeah yeah! When you've been running full throttle with the big dogs, bouncing the rocks and catching air, coming down requires the company of strong masculine men to play with.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

The simple answer is this: The more educated and capable a woman is the harder it is for her to "marry up", which is what they'd all like to do--find a man who is MORE educated and capable than they. It has been my observation that every woman wants a man she can look up to--one stronger, smarter, bigger, more tender, more passionate and more helpful than any other man on earth. 

If a woman is a high school drop out with nothing to offer except good looks and good character there are dozens of men who are excellent prospects. If she is a rocket scientist or a brain surgeon her choices are more limited.

As for the wussification of men--that's a fantasy that only complaisant men fall far. A man with normal levels of testosterone doesn't buy into that. 
Remember "A real man doesn't eat quiche"? Baloney: A real man eats any ----ed thing he pleases.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> As for the wussification of men--that's a fantasy that only complaisant men fall far. A man with normal levels of testosterone doesn't buy into that.
> Remember "A real man doesn't eat quiche"? Baloney: A real man eats any ----ed thing he pleases.


I strongly agree with this. 

In my opinion arcticow is what he is because of the person that he is, and there is nothing wrong with that. I do not consider him the macho type because he is male, but because he is ARCTICOW! 

I have always admired a man who accepts what he is and does not worry about "society says I should be" whatever is in style. We are all people first.

By the same token, many women wish for men to take control. That is fine and dandy with me because the heart wants what the heart wants, as long as I do not have to live that way! Because personality has more to do with the person that we are and not so much our gender, and I have no desire to live the submissive life. Ever.

I never saw the point of a macho man trying to be the sensitive type if that was not the way that he is shaped, and I never saw the point of a sensitive guy trying to be macho if that is not who he is. 

The kind of man that I AMIRE is the man who can say "This is who I am, take it or leave it"!:dance: THAT is cool!

My own husband is what he is, an I ADMIRE that! He does not try to change his personality, he is what he is and if a person does not like it then he does not CARE! He is not macho and he is not passive, he is simply himself and that is WAY cool! 

Some of his friends ARE the macho type, and that is cool also because that is the people that they honestly are. They are not trying to be what they are not. I prefer the philosophy of "to thine own self be true"


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Oxankle said:


> The simple answer is this: The more educated and capable a woman is the harder it is for her to "marry up", which is what they'd all like to do--find a man who is MORE educated and capable than they. It has been my observation that every woman wants a man she can look up to--one stronger, smarter, bigger, more tender, more passionate and more helpful than any other man on earth.
> 
> If a woman is a high school drop out with nothing to offer except good looks and good character there are dozens of men who are excellent prospects. If she is a rocket scientist or a brain surgeon her choices are more limited.
> 
> ...


Not trying to speak up for all women by any means...but this woman here wants a man she can look straight in the eye, without the pre-flinch of "are my words, actions, thoughts being uppity do I need to tone em down", someone I can stare straight into his soul and he in mine and we are in the garden, naked and unashamed.

what's with all this up/down stuff? 

and why are we talking about high maintenance professional ladder climbers with a shoe fetish? last time I looked that was one of the smaller demographics of this place. and a pretty high school drop out with good character has a bigger pool to choose from? what if she aint pretty? a seemingly dumber-by-modern-educational-evaluation woman has more prospects? WHAT?


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Think about it--How many college-educated and successful women from good families will marry a deliveryman even if he is working regularly, handsome and a steady, decent man. That same man might look like a good catch to a high school drop out waiting tables at the local diner. 

The old saying is that there lots of fish in the sea, but as a woman goes higher and higher up the ladder that sea begins to look more like a farm pond. Further, such successful women are pretty pushy, and most men won't tolerate that.

Oh, we're not talking about "this place", HT Singletree. Not that many nuclear scientists here. The discussion is in general terms. A black woman of some distinction first pointed these facts out to me thirty five or forty years ago.---Harder for a black woman than for any other. 

As for women wanting to "marry up"; I think research shows they usually marry "down"---it is men who marry "up".


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

People who are macho should not have to change, jut like people who are not macho should have to change. People should be themselves.

An, by the same token, I should not have to change who I am to fit society's ideals either.

Do some men want a submissive mate? EXCELLENT! They are free to find one! But, just as there is nothing wrong with a dominant male there is ALSO nothing wrong with a man who WANTS a woman to look him in the eye and speak her mind!

And I get very tired of the male bashing, female bashing, SAHM bashing, working woman bashing, etc etc etc that you see on TV. The sit coms are VILE about that! A lot of people must think they are funny but I usually just see people bashing each other!


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> Think about it--How many college-educated and successful women from good families will marry a deliveryman even if he is working regularly, handsome and a steady, decent man. That same man might look like a good catch to a high school drop out waiting tables at the local diner.


 People who marry co-workers or fellow college students are almost a cliche', it happens so often. For MOST people I think that is the biggest pond of all! And yes, people who work in the same place or attend the same classes often have a GREAT deal in common!


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Oxankle said:


> Think about it--How many college-educated and successful women from good families will marry a deliveryman even if he is working regularly, handsome and a steady, decent man. That same man might look like a good catch to a high school drop out waiting tables at the local diner.
> 
> The old saying is that there lots of fish in the sea, but as a woman goes higher and higher up the ladder that sea begins to look more like a farm pond. Further, such successful women are pretty pushy, and most men won't tolerate that.
> 
> ...


ah, now i see my problem, I'm not on the ladder. got off a long time ago. I don't think I was ever on it come to think of it...

and my other problem, bringing the discussion to a personal level, pondering the "so what?" or "how should we live"

the ladder is stupid and unproductive and half-mule. IMO ha. btw more of those professional women than you think hook up with the "simple man" (cue Lynyrd Skynyrd)


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## skeeter (Mar 23, 2013)

Well I think all of this has been very interesting and want to add my thoughts...I guess I need too since I often use this discussion to get people engaged and talking. Seems like we all seem to have some opinions and assumptions about gender roles.

First, I think it has been nice that our society has developed to the point that people can be who they are or as they see themselves...they don't have to fit into some mold created by our culture that says you must do this because you are a woman or a man. I think this is great for both genders.

So to say it again, as above, "to thine ownself be true"

I do believe that men and women think completely different. Biologically that has been confirmed and supported by the impact of testosterone and estrogen. Thank the Lord!! I think men make the world a much better place.

But with that I would have to wonder how much of our behavior is actually cultural norms and not gender? hmmm....I think many. In the statement, I see a mix of those things and some cultural bias. How are men from other nations/countries perceived? Are the valued characteristics the same? Is it the same for women?

Second, as someone that has been husband hunting I have found the pool tough. Many men are well established and stable but they just not been compatible with me. Of course I am excluding the men that will not commit, are currently married and pretending not to be, jerks, abusers, etc. 

I guess I'm feeling a bit picked on in this discussion since professional working women seem to listed as being a negative component to a man/woman relationship. I don't believe the reason given for professional women not finding mates is on target. I mean I can afford a stay at home husband who can make me dinner and have it ready when I get home . Not sure how that is moving up...maybe someone could accuse me of assuming an old male norm of when men married women to "make a home" (I'm not saying that is what I am looking for...just sayin). How come a job/task is perceived as a definition of our sexuality/gender? 

I guess for me (a professional) it comes down to the question - are we compatible and do I love spending time with him...is he my bestie? ... NOT what he owns, those things he likes to do, what he does for a living, or wether he acts "manly" per cultural norms. I am looking for the man on the inside and how that fits with me. Do I want to spend all my time with him? Does that mean I see him as masculine...you bet it does.

Blessings


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

thank you skeeter, my like button seemed disabled

ps, when I said "hookup" it was with affection


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

Professional women have no reason to apologize or defend themselves for who they are. On the other hand, those whose profession seems to be demeaning the other sex, or those of their own sex for choosing tradition over "modernism" DO. BE who you are. Expect that at times some will attempt to make you uncomfortable, consider it the price of your freedom. They are free to be idiots, bless their baby hearts...


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

this is fun


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

A couple of years ago I started a thread, "Who Neutered the Men?" A lot of people of both sexes chose to blow themselves up. RL discussions on the topic with the bouncers at the bar were very enlightening and educational. They cited TV, feminism, economy and lack of strong male role models. One of these men is the wresting coach for DD's young men.

Watching boys grow to their manhood. HS senior top jocks from traditional families, becoming successful, masculine men. They take care of their families, work hard, achieve goals. They are protectors and providers. Many were out on the fishing boats for the summer becoming strong and tan with a bankroll. One recently bought his mom a restaurant. High school boys proud of who they are.

Then back to public high school. School spirit, be a slave and be auctioned to raise money, or be ridiculed for not participating. All these young men made to wear dresses to school.

Beyond exploring who likes being a transvestite and who likes hanging with them, the unwilling were shown, "You will be humiliated, feminized, shamed for being a man, rendered safe to be around. Now squat to pee."

I had few conversations about this. The mental health youth counselors who've been in the community less than a year and trying to get a grip on the school were shocked this this was allowed. Common knowledge what forcing boys to wear dresses to school does to his psych.

Another camp was female school employees who believe it is appropriate for the young men to be treated that way.

Men and women are not the same. Women have ovaries, men have testicles giving us different chemistry cocktails, firing different receptors in our brains in different orders and frequencies. Each of us are uniquely made and are in a state of flux. My chemical thumbprint at any given time may be more masculine than some males and more feminine than some females. Not everyone is sex hormone dependent.

No matter which bunch of males I'm running with or what we're doing, when someone gets a booboo, needs a sliver or a branch pulled, the guys turn to me. I'm automatically the combat nurse.

When natural free expression of traits are repressed, they don't go away. They show up in negative, destructive ways. 

A securely masculine male will tell me, "You can do it," not as permission, but as confidence in my abilities, and as encouragement. He's also not afraid to tell me he can't protect me if I do stupid things. He's protective but knows his limitations.

Being told I may not wear a certain pair of socks is from a position of weakness. 

My logging project snapped the masculine men into focus. Unlike some relationships, logging has clearly defined roles. Logger Hero said I could do this, Prairieman said I make life interesting. Operating in masculine energy and still staying in feminine polarity with the crew and bulls. My job was to keep them logging, keep contracts from going lumpy and smack any hands trying to take our pie. Yes, it IS nice to be that high, riffing who's the biggest a-hole on the prairie with testosterone charged men rooting me on, then floating softly down into feminine with masculine arms around me. Loggers rule, idiots drool.

Men presenting themselves as neutered house pets are unappealing to me. Many of my professional GFs have live-in relationships they started by the house pet method. Find one you like, invite him over and feed him. What they have are chowhounds who offer a bit of comfort when they are lonely. They aren't working dogs or watch dogs. The M/F polarity is out of balance, masculine energy gets expressed through passive aggression when he's asked to pull weight. She's confused and unhappy, but can't quite figure it out. Even when a fully masculine powered guy friend steps up and deals with a Big One both emotionally and physically and says, "It's okay, I am here, I will take care of you," she is confused. I keep my mouth shut and listen.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

JohnnyLee said:


> Too wrongs don't make a right.
> 
> Kind of like all this reverse discrimination going on these days. Is there any wonder I want to live in the middle of nowhere?


 
.............and , Two Wongs , don't make a White....., lol , fordy:sob:


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## skeeter (Mar 23, 2013)

Laura said:


> Men presenting themselves as neutered house pets are unappealing to me. Many of my professional GFs have live-in relationships they started by the house pet method. Find one you like, invite him over and feed him. What they have are chowhounds who offer a bit of comfort when they are lonely. They aren't working dogs or watch dogs. The M/F polarity is out of balance, masculine energy gets expressed through passive aggression when he's asked to pull weight. She's confused and unhappy, but can't quite figure it out. Even when a fully masculine powered guy friend steps up and deals with a Big One both emotionally and physically and says, "It's okay, I am here, I will take care of you," she is confused. I keep my mouth shut and listen.


I don't think I have ever seen one of these. Kinda interesting...a pet male as a boyfriend....hmmm...is that possible? (I'm really not sure what that means so I have no idea if I would even like a man like that around.)


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## skeeter (Mar 23, 2013)

I just want to say that I think men are portrayed in a very negative way on television. 
Women as well, but in a different way.

Our kids see that and think that is ok. Even if not acknowledged, the brain still processes those role models...sigh

So we should see the fall out with the next generation....not sure I am looking forward to it

Blessings


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

skeeter said:


> I just want to say that I think men are portrayed in a very negative way on television.
> Women as well, but in a different way.
> 
> Our kids see that and think that is ok. Even if not acknowledged, the brain still processes those role models...sigh
> ...


 TV has been hosting the Battle of the Sexes for at least 50 years now that I know, and I have seen no harm! We ALWAYS get along!

Oh, wait.gre::viking::run:

Never mind. 

Terri


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

And now TV is showing shows that show that gay dom is ho K also. O say, can you see any harm in that either?? lol


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

ah Bill, ever the cunning linguist!


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

So I just have to ask ... What are the differences between a traditional and modern man ?


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I gather grumpy that one is neutered and one is not...LOL


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

We haven't had outside programming for TV in 15 years. I never had anything beyond rabbit ears and often lived beyond broadcast. Very little TV since Andy and Opie. DDwAutism watched TV at her dad's the last few years. She's the one who said, "Oh I get it, everyone imitates TV!"

I think we're experiencing the fallout of TV culture now. It seems to be the norm to meet a male, have sex at the end of the first episode then instant live-in relationship with inadequate buffoonery or off-screen irrelevancy next week. That's just a guess based on observation.

Skeeter, I rarely miss social opportunities to meet people. The males presenting themselves as domesticated house pets are ex-husbands of professional women. I think the most ballsy male of this nature was the xh of SC judge. After a half hour conversation he looked me in the eyes and asked if I was going to take him home. Since my answer is NO to these guys and I don't have one ensconced on my sofa, it is perceived I don't have a relationship.

Yet there are several masculine men I am building relationships with, spend time with and can count on if I get in a jam. Trust and respect are more important than instant.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Who's allowing/encouraging/expect/whatever their kids to seek role models on tv? My kids grew up with lots of tv(which wasn't totally under my control to control--my worst worry was Barney haha but they saw the light), I also taught them to question the naked emporers, be it corporate media .gov slash god dam the pusher man, teachers, church people.

Always gonna be the control freaks and haters, track it back to its source.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

Grumpy old man said:


> So I just have to ask ... What are the differences between a traditional and modern man ?


 
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz6IpmmYSXA[/ame]


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## skeeter (Mar 23, 2013)

Laura said:


> Skeeter, I rarely miss social opportunities to meet people. The males presenting themselves as domesticated house pets are ex-husbands of professional women. I think the most ballsy male of this nature was the xh of SC judge. After a half hour conversation he looked me in the eyes and asked if I was going to take him home. Since my answer is NO to these guys and I don't have one ensconced on my sofa, it is perceived I don't have a relationship.
> 
> Yet there are several masculine men I am building relationships with, spend time with and can count on if I get in a jam. Trust and respect are more important than instant.


Well I seem to have a similar problem...I do keep running into men that want me to take care of them but they lack any qualities that I truly can respect and admire. Respecting my man is not something I find negotiable.

I too know some men that are masculine and we are friends
lol...Well don't tell them since all I hear is NO to the friends classification...lol

I've ran off the ones that have no patience or expect me to forgo all my other "friends" before I even know them very well


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## skeeter (Mar 23, 2013)

wyld thang said:


> Who's allowing/encouraging/expect/whatever their kids to seek role models on tv? My kids grew up with lots of tv(which wasn't totally under my control to control--my worst worry was Barney haha but they saw the light), I also taught them to question the naked emporers, be it corporate media .gov slash god dam the pusher man, teachers, church people.
> 
> Always gonna be the control freaks and haters, track it back to its source.


Don't expect it but when they hang out with their friends...hollywierd becomes kinda important when they hit pre-teen stage...then no matter they just pay attention to the stupidity on the tv screen

So subversive techniques of making the movie stars look like idiots seemed to work most of the time...lol...so they did not want to mimic or act like them


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

skeeter said:


> Don't expect it but when they hang out with their friends...hollywierd becomes kinda important when they hit pre-teen stage...then no matter they just pay attention to the stupidity on the tv screen
> 
> So subversive techniques of making the movie stars look like idiots seemed to work most of the time...lol...so they did not want to mimic or act like them


................One facet of a budding relationship that men never seem to grasp , once the key fits the lock , a lady will , through her own initiative start rejecting any other candidates because she feels secure with the attitudes and values that Mr. Right is revealing as time passes ! An overt demand to reject 'all others' by a compromised man child , Before she makes UP her mind that she is secure with him just weakens him even further and results in his demise in her eyes . , fordy


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

fordy said:


> ................One facet of a budding relationship that men never seem to grasp , once the key fits the lock , a lady will , through her own initiative start rejecting any other candidates because she feels secure with the attitudes and values that Mr. Right is revealing as time passes ! An overt demand to reject 'all others' by a compromised man child , Before she makes UP her mind that she is secure with him just weakens him even further and results in his demise in her eyes . , fordy


Usually, yes.

Once a lady has made up her mind, the other candiates look second best. Most women would rather not have second best: I know that I would rather not!

Most women, but not all: there are women out there with wandering eyes!


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Well... looks like I need to change my name to Alley Oop !

I think I fall in the traditional man sense but I'm not sure ?

I'm retired and 52 (grumpy old man LOL ) But ms grumpy is still a working professional and I do almost all the shopping /cooking / all of the farming duties all of the home repairs /car repairs /all the equipment repairs /all of the yard work and anything that requires physical work is my job , very rarely do we hire anyone for anything. I find I can do most things better faster and less expensive than anyone I could hire , ms grumpy does the house cleaning and laundry and this seems to work for us but since I'm shopping and cooking does that make me a Modern man ? or just an over worked Alley Oop ?


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## skeeter (Mar 23, 2013)

Grumpy Old Man...sounds like you make Ms Grumpy mighty happy being her husband

Not sure that is modern since I'm still confused what that really means in the context of this discussion


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

skeeter said:


> Grumpy Old Man...sounds like you make Ms Grumpy mighty happy being her husband
> 
> Not sure that is modern since I'm still confused what that really means in the context of this discussion


ms grumpy and i are not married ,I tried that 3 times and altho they all loved spending my money and the homes as parting gifts they all complained that i worked to much at the same time ,so when i met Ms grumpy i did something I never did before ,we actually sat down and had a long discussion Of what she expected of me and I of her and we do have the occasion 20 minute spat but after i admit she's right :lookout: we're back to being happy as clams . Never assume someone has the same intentions as you or the same interests ,it's all compromise and being mature enough to realize it . she doesn't run cattle and I don't shop for dresses .:cowboy: but together we can disco all night long :dance::dance:


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> ms grumpy and i are not married ,I tried that 3 times and altho they all loved spending my money and the homes as parting gifts


My ex used to say that rather than having a relationship, it would be easier to just find a woman he didn't like and buy her a house.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

willow_girl said:


> My ex used to say that rather than having a relationship, it would be easier to just find a woman he didn't like and buy her a house.


I've seen that before Rod Stewart Said that on tv during an interview .:runforhills:


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

JohnnyLee said:


> Too wrongs don't make a right.
> 
> Kind of like all this reverse discrimination going on these days. Is there any wonder I want to live in the middle of nowhere?


Hay Johnnie I am thinking of moving here.

http://www.landwatch.com/Valley-County-Montana-House-for-sale/pid/200366373

Now that is the middle of nowere


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

Sometimes I _was the strong one and sometimes he was the strong one, it all worked out in the end. I've been on my own for so long now_ making do on little, that prestige or money no longer factors in the equation. When I thought I needed a man to make it in the world a lot of energy was directed to figuring it all out. It finally dawned on me that in many ways I was more secure and safe than I ever had been. It all came down to me, the blame, the glory, good and bad. How liberating. I've raised the kids, kept a roof over our heads and felt lucky to have them.

I've been celibate since the death of my husband (twelve years). If there is ever a relationship again in my life, intimacy would definitely be a part of it. Age is a big factor for me...I just don't think about it. But never say never!


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

> Sometimes I _was the strong one and sometimes he was the strong one, it all worked out in the end._


This is the Relationship, being there for each other, covering vulnerabilities and blind spots, pulling each other through. Moving forward as a team.

It shouldn't be a competition with a need to dominate the relationship when you have the world to scrimmage.

There's a big difference between dominant and masculine males. 

(I had to look up the definition of "dominate" male 'cuz I thought the guy didn't pronounce correctly. Heck no!) 

How you seek to establish a relationship determines the dynamics and what kind of person you attract. The common advice to women of, "Find one presentable, take him home and feed him," is masculine energy. Spot him, bag him, drag him home and stuff him.. You have meat and a trophy, and his pick-up parked in your yard, but will he naturally man up when you need him? 

Masculine males prefer to do their own hunting, and do the providing. He's going to observe, listen and think of create ways to please the woman before asking her out. He plots and plans through many good conversations learning as much as he can. He loves to please women and make them happy. It seems like he's slow, but he knows he may only have one shot at her and he doesn't want to miss.........

Women should learn to be comfortable with receiving. 

I think it's sad seeing my friends who offered the same bad advice I followed to "catch" xh, struggling with disappointment, confusion and unmet emotional needs in their relationships. These women have masters degrees and are well respected in their professions. We do Tomboy stuff. Sometimes we get in over our heads, go girly and start to spin. I can't man up enough to pull us out. What's sad and scary to these women is their men already gave notice of unavailability if they're needed. 

Quickly analyze the situation, choose the right man for the task, one of us make the call. Amazing how quickly these masculine men respond. They show up, apply emotional 1st aid (masculine energy) and lead us through the task when we're ready. When it's finished, these single men we trust and respect tell my friends they care and will always be there. 

But the guy they share expenses and chores won't get off the sofa for them. 

De ja Moo


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