# Butcher question: ice bath/refrigeration



## Merit

Hello, Gang---- Two main questions here: 1) What is the purpose of the ice bath during butcher? What happens if that step was skipped? Skipped for an hour? Two? (hypothetical questions here, by the way) 2) What is the purpose of refrigerating freshly butchered chicken for two days prior to vacuum sealing & freezing? What if one went directly from butcher to freezer? Thanks much!


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## chickenista

The ice bath is to cool the meat quickly and to leach a bit more of the blood from the bird. If you skipped it for an hour or two.. you would have a higher chance for bacteria to set into the still warmish meat. You would definitely begin to notice the smell. Also, being submerged in the icy water provides an anaerobic situation..

Letting the bird sit in teh fridge (we keep ours in salty ice water for two days before freezing) allows the bird to go through rigor mortis and back before freezing. It makes for a much more tender bird and a bird that is edible and not too tough to eat.


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## Painted Pony

Chickenista hit both points right on the spot. You may find the meat a bit tough if you don't let it rest before you freeze it.


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## 4piecesof8

We wanted to know just how tough the meat would be if we didn't let the meat settle for a day or two before freezing. We might as well made jerky out of the chicken we killed and cooked. It was horrid tough.

We age all our meats to various extents. But we also butcher here in mid-fall when it is about 25-32 degrees out. makes for some cold fingers, but cooling has never been a problem for us.


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## lisa's garden

_You may find the meat a bit tough if you don't let it rest before you freeze it. _

Do you also let your birds sit for a couple of days before cooking it? I have done this with rabbits, but I didn't notice much difference in the meat if I eat it the day I butcher, or if I let it sit for a couple of days. Any thoughts?


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## Jay27

We fill a muck bucket (used only for chicken processing) with cold water and toss the birds in after scalding. We keep the hose in the bucket and running. After all the birds are scalded, we swish them around, dump the water, add new water and then start plucking. After plucking, the bird goes back in the bucket. After all the birds are plucked, we change the water again and go to gutting. After gutting, its back in the bucket. After all birds are gutted, the water gets changed 2 more times and vinegar or salt gets added. Maybe we aren't as germ-phobic as some people, but we put a piece of plywood over the bucket, drag the it into the corner of the garage and let it sit there for a day or two. We change the water twice a day adding vinegar or salt each time. The garage stays about 55 degrees even on a hot day.


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## GrannyCarol

Jay27 - do you find that cooling the birds before plucking works against the action of scalding? Of course I have ducks, a lot harder to pluck, but I want to pluck them immediately after scalding and so only slaughter as many at a time as I have people to pluck, scald them and pluck them, then cool them. Usually that's two at a time, we aren't speedy.


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## Caprice Acres

We toss finished birds in a big barrel with hose water after we're through butchering them. We don't cool them between each step. It usually takes us less than 10 minutes per bird all the way through so I figure that's not bad. We then bag and freeze. With broilers I can't find a difference with soaked birds and immediately frozen ones - they're all nice and tender.  We don't butcher the heritage types whole like that, we just breast them out - so I would imagine the need to soak would depend on what breed you're doing. I would DEFINITELY soak a heritage bird before cooking, if we ever did butcher them that way.


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## Merit

Thanks for the information, all!!! Ok, not so hypothetical anymore! Will we "die" if the hunter who butchered some of the cornish x's bled them out but didn't soak to draw out more blood? (meat more likely to bruise, right? What's the ramifications of bruises?) And also, what about if the meat smelled like...er...warm meat. I have this sinking feeling he didn't necessarily refrigerate them terribly promptly. At all. How do I handle this, after the fact? Moral of the story: Everybody's right when they say do it yourself. (Or have it done professionally) Thanks ever so much..


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## GrannyCarol

Well, my first venture into duck processing was more like kill six ducks, then discover I we were VERY slow to pluck them and they hung until we got to them, hours later. What did I know? They were fine, even on a warm day. We didn't know enough to scald them, my dd wanted feathers and thought we had to dry pluck to get them. Even now I'm not all that fast plucking ducks and don't cool them before I pluck, but I don't kill them much before I'm ready either. After I pluck, I cool them.


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## HillsideWayCSA

I wouldn't make a habit of leaving them too long but as long as you cook it thoroughly I wouldn't worry too much about the occasional mishap. Like everything butchering anything takes a learning curve. Don't be too hard on the hunter.  I'm sure with practice it'll get better.


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## Handyman

We usually soak our birds (chickens) in salt and ice water after butchering. We've no idea how much salt to use per gallon of water. Any suggestions?

One trick I read about was to use soda/pop bottles filled with ice water. Put these in your salt water and replace as they thaw out. This way the ice doesn't melt and dilute your brine.


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## Judi Reilly

Chickenista pretty well hit the nail on the head..after picking,,I singe them,,then into ice water..as each one is done..then fresh ice water after each is gutted..then..more fresh ice water after all are gutted..set for a hr. or so..outside..covered..plenty of ice in the water..after they have cooled completely,,I take downstairs to my kitchen and cut them up...then into more ice water for another hr...then they are bagged and frozen or vacuum sealed..if they're not cooled down and relaxed by then...well...I learned thisfrom Mom way back when..and haven't had a tough chicken yet..so I think we are all pretty much on track..did a duck once by wrapping it in a hot towel....then picking..worked..but I did no more ducks..LOL...have a good one!!


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## Jay27

We don't cool them before scalding, but we do cool them after scalding/before plucking. For right or wrong, the feathers come right off. I've tried plucking immediately after scalding... It was hot on my hands and I tore the skin... enough of that.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

muscle isn't meat untill it uses up the last of the energy in the blood it contains the name giventhis proccess is rigormortis or rigor , i can tell you that 3 hours is usualy adiquate for broiler chickens 

i use ice bath as we want the core temp of the bird as measured in the center of the breast with a probe thermometer to 40 within an hour , when doing a bunch of birds stiring this becomes nessisary ocationaly to move birds to the coldest part of 
salt is not an exact amount you can really do as little as none or as much as you can get in solution , salt helps create a enviroment addtionaly hostile to bacteria , and helps draw the blood from the meat and flavor and tenderize the meat 

you can air chill birds but you need a blast to get them cold fast enough the birds have to be hung then cold air blown past over around them so that they cool fast remember your trying to get them to 40 in 1 hour most people don't have a cooler with the kind of draw down and air flow so ice bath is the best option for them.


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## LFRJ

HillsideWayCSA said:


> I wouldn't make a habit of leaving them too long but as long as you cook it thoroughly I wouldn't worry too much about the occasional mishap.


I'll side with Hillside. You could soak them in cold saltwater to draw blood and inhibit bacteria, then cook them thoroughly, maybe stew them long and slow and then try a little. Probably be okay. Heaven knows how they survived the middle ages without ice. 

Our first go rounds we had some birds that hung for a good long while as we dry plucked. We didn't perish. Now that I've learned to dip in hot water, I still get nervous. Gosh, with waterfowl, that water has to be super hot! And it STILL takes me a long time to pluck, sometimes I have to re-dip. It definitely smells like warm meat - but I've learned that it's actually the boiled blood (in the hot water) which didn't completely drain that causes the warm meat smell.

Plunging in cold water to rinse is a must, and we too soak for a couple of days in saltwater in the fridge outside. My DP just finished 18 mos of chemo, so we're pretty careful given her depressed immune system, and we still eat ours. As you decide though, consider who will be eating the birds. Maybe reserve from little kids or frail elderly. 

or - ask the guy who butchered them over for dinner. If he doesn't keel over, you're good to go.


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## Merit

You all are such a wonderful wealth of information! So I suspect the broilers were butchered, hung-bled, skinned and cut up without any cold water bath, left for a bit..maybe a few hours even..at room temperature on a cloudy upper 60's day, and then promptly frozen. I'll take heed to cook my share long and slow and thoroughly, per above advice. Would it be helpful to thaw and belatedly salt-water soak them, perhaps just prior to cooking? Draws out the blood, right? Moot point by then? Day late and a dollar short? (Have to say, the hunter with his sense of humor made this the most hilariously funny experience! Days later I'm still giggling to myself at some of the stuff that went on.)


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## Ed Norman

When I was a kid my Pa and I hunted waterfowl every weekend. We would shoot ducks at sunrise, toss them in the trunk at 10, hunt pheasant and quail the rest of the day, and put them in our game vests or trunk. When we finally got home after dark, he would put his feet up and I would start dry plucking ducks and gamebirds. The family had many great meals with never a problem.

Read up on how the Spanish would hang a pheasant or partridge by the tail feathers until it dropped. Then they would dress and cook. From all reports, it was an incredible meal, but the next day was always spent near a bathroom.


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## Merit

Thanks Ed. That does make me feel more reassured. (Now I'm going to google the tail-feather story! Are this going to remove that warm glow of reassurance??!!)


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## Merit

Update: Hung for a few DAYS, Ed?!??!?!?!??!?!?!?! (!)


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## Ed Norman

Ooh. I read the recipe in an old book that I loaned to someone and they stole. Now the book is worth $115, and mine was autographed. But anyway, I looked it up on Amazon and searched inside and found the story. I was wrong. The bird is hung by the neck, not the tail.

"The partridge after it was claimed by the restauranteur was hung for a couple of weeks. This was done with the guts still in the bird. At the end of this seasoning period the bird would finally fall to the ground as the neck rotted in two. Once the perdiz had fallen it was adjudged ready for the pot. It was then picked and cleaned and roasted. These game had a rich old savor, believe me! I always got a fine case of the trots after we were invited to this Toledo dining room. "

Sorry he doesn't give roasting times or temperatures, you'll have to experiment. Let us know if you live. 

http://www.amazon.com/Unrepentant-s...B000710AY8/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_1#reader_B000710AY8


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## Merit

That is _SO MUCH WORSE_ that what I'd found by Googling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hey, if I froze them before rigor mortis was complete (I did) would you expect freezing just suspends the process, not aborts it? And at thaw-time, I could just 'finish up' the rigor process by letting them sit a few days prior to cooking?


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## GrannyCarol

I think you will figure it out like most of us - by experience.  At least you aren't likely to get the trots. 

You can always marinate it for a day in the fridge with something acidic to soften it up if it seems tough. Or smoke it, I'm going to smoke some ducks this summer, really I am! lol I do finally have all the parts to my used smoker.


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## Merit

Granny Carol, Here's what I keep tossing around in my mind: "But people send their broilers to Plucky Chicken (or whatever it's called) and they come back all bagged up. Certainly THEY don't put zillions of whole bagged chickens in their 'fridge for two days..riight? Certainly they'll go straight to the freezer?" (And I'll walk away scott-free from having screwed up that part??!) Broiler= less developed muscle=rigor mortis not so nasty?? Ah well, there's always the pressure cooker. And your marinate idea, if my theor(ies) are wrong. Enjoy those ducks, Smoky Joe! Er, be sure do DO it!


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## Ed Norman

How about you thaw one and cook it like any normal store bought chicken? Then see if it is tough or tender and begin making adjustments accordingly. Even if it is tough, you can get it down and it will fill your belly.


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## Merit

It's thawing as we speak. I'm placing bets on it being fine by nature of being a "pet rock" cornish x with no muscle tone. but we'll find out. And I'll keep _that_ information a secret and let _everyone else_ figure it out the hard way too! (heheheheheh! Joking!)


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## Mac_

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> muscle isn't meat untill it uses up the last of the energy in the blood it contains the name giventhis proccess is rigormortis or rigor , i can tell you that 3 hours is usualy adiquate for broiler chickens
> 
> i use ice bath as we want the core temp of the bird as measured in the center of the breast with a probe thermometer to 40 within an hour , when doing a bunch of birds stiring this becomes nessisary ocationaly to move birds to the coldest part of
> salt is not an exact amount you can really do as little as none or as much as you can get in solution , salt helps create a enviroment addtionaly hostile to bacteria , and helps draw the blood from the meat and flavor and tenderize the meat
> 
> you can air chill birds but you need a blast to get them cold fast enough the birds have to be hung then cold air blown past over around them so that they cool fast remember your trying to get them to 40 in 1 hour most people don't have a cooler with the kind of draw down and air flow so ice bath is the best option for them.


This is in line with what ATTRA says on their website. The ATTRA info on processsing states that aging for longer than 4 hours does not result in any appreciable increase in tenderness.



> Chilling
> 
> The carcass temperature must be lowered quickly to prevent microbial growth. The USDA requires that the temperature of the carcass be lowered to 40Â° F within 4 hours (for 4-lb broilers), 6 hours (4- to 8-lb), and 8 hours (greater than 8 lbs or turkey). (5) Soaking the carcass in chilled water is the most common method of chilling poultry in the U.S.
> 
> According to Luke Elliott, "The temperature should be taken in the breast of the bird with a probe-type thermometer. Get a good thermometer (less than $20.00) that can be calibrated. Thermometers are calibrated to 32Â° F by placing the probe in a glass of ice water. Before my experience in the plant, I always just took the water temp and that does not give a good representation of the bird temp. We normally tested three birds out of the tank and tested the ones that went in last." (23)
> 
> On-farm processors use large plastic tubs filled with cold water and ice. Sometimes they have two tubs, using the first to remove the initial body heat and the second to chill the carcass. Carcasses usually stay in the water for about one hour. Small-plant processors use food-grade plastic or stainless steel bins filled with ice&#8212;a slush forms as the ice melts. The drainage holes in the bottom can be opened and the water drained out, leaving only ice, according to Elliott. (23) "A bin size that holds 50 to 100 birds allows an hour's worth of processing to chill while birds processed later can go into a separate tank. This is also an easy-size bin to move when full." (23)
> 
> Ice is an important supply issue for on-farm and small processors. "More than 5-pound bags of ice will be needed," as one on-farm processor puts it. A rule of thumb is one pound of ice per pound of meat. In a small plant designed for 500 birds per day, 2000 lbs. of ice would be required. An ice machine with a bin capacity of 1800 lbs costs about $5,000 and has a recovery of 900 pounds per day. In order to process on consecutive days, a second ice maker would need to be mounted on the bin to allow sufficient recovery. (23) One maker of ice machines is the A-1 Refrigeration Company. (24) Crushed ice is more efficient than cubed ice, which always has pockets of warmth.


http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/poultryprocess.html#chil

I have a digital thermometer in our refrigerator in the garage for eggs and such. I recently boiled a stockpot of shell corned for the chicks, let the pot cool on the stove for about an hour, and put it in the ref. The next day I noticed that the temp in the ref (which is set at 38 deg) had risen to 52 deg from the heat from the stock pot full of corn. In the future, I will run cold water in with the corn, dump off the liquid, then add a few ice cubes before putting it in the ref.

Putting a lot of warm chickens in a ref or freezer would probably have a similar result, giving bacteria a chance to multiply.


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## Danaus29

If you cook it in the crock pot it doesn't matter how long or short you have aged it. I love my crock pot and would be eating leather tough birds without it.


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## Pony

Merit said:


> Thanks for the information, all!!! Ok, not so hypothetical anymore! Will we "die" if the hunter who butchered some of the cornish x's bled them out but didn't soak to draw out more blood? (meat more likely to bruise, right? What's the ramifications of bruises?) And also, what about if the meat smelled like...er...warm meat. I have this sinking feeling he didn't necessarily refrigerate them terribly promptly. At all. How do I handle this, after the fact? Moral of the story: Everybody's right when they say do it yourself. (Or have it done professionally) Thanks ever so much..


I'd do three things:

Wash the meat really well in running water.

Marinate in a lemon juice or vinegar based marinade. That will help to kill off unfriendly bacteria.

Cook thoroughly.

We've cooked chicken the same day we butchered, as long as we cool it very quickly and get all the heat out of it. Same with rabbits. Never had a problem -- so far.


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## Merit

I'm very grateful to each of you for the informative information. How did I make it through life without the internet and experienced people? Thank you!!


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## WolfGirl672

chickenista said:


> The ice bath is to cool the meat quickly and to leach a bit more of the blood from the bird. If you skipped it for an hour or two.. you would have a higher chance for bacteria to set into the still warmish meat. You would definitely begin to notice the smell. Also, being submerged in the icy water provides an anaerobic situation..
> 
> Letting the bird sit in teh fridge (we keep ours in salty ice water for two days before freezing) allows the bird to go through rigor mortis and back before freezing. It makes for a much more tender bird and a bird that is edible and not too tough to eat.


Do you have any tips on the salty ice water? Why salty? How would you keep the water cold all day while at work? I live in a trailer so it gets warm/ hot even with the AC on during hotter days. I have 3 birds to process tomorrow and almost missed this step.


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## NEPA

My grandmother used to say that soaking in salt water would "draw out the blood". Not sure I buy this, and I don't do it anymore. 

Our current method is that I process the birds in the garage. I have an old cooler that I use exclusively for this. Each bird goes in the cooler filled with ice water until all are ready for the fridge. I drain them and carry inside where my wife does a final cleaning/inspection in the kitchen. We have a spare fridge in the basement where they all sit for 2-3 days in old roasting pans lined with wax paper. As has been said many times here, this relaxes the muscles and produces much more tender meat (learned this from first hand experience). After this they get vacuum sealed and into the freezer.

a couple of comments:
1) I am much faster processing than when we first started doing this 20 some years ago, however I am pickier than I used to be about the weather. I refuse to process birds in the heat of summer.

2) I've read stories from the old days about farm wives killing a chicken on Sunday to serve for Sunday dinner. My guess is that we are pickier about the tenderness of our meat than they were, but maybe those old time farm wives had some secret to tender same day chicken.


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## Danaus29

WolfGirl672 said:


> Do you have any tips on the salty ice water? Why salty? How would you keep the water cold all day while at work? I live in a trailer so it gets warm/ hot even with the AC on during hotter days. I have 3 birds to process tomorrow and almost missed this step.


You've probably already butchered your birds but they don't need to be soaked in salt water after processing. Just let them set in the fridge for a few days before cooking or freezing.


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## aart

WolfGirl672 said:


> Do you have any tips on the salty ice water? Why salty? How would you keep the water cold all day while at work? I live in a trailer so it gets warm/ hot even with the AC on during hotter days. I have 3 birds to process tomorrow and almost missed this step.


I use the same process that @NEPA uses.
Salt in the ice bath can make it stay colder longer.
I rest in the fridge for a couple days before freezing.


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## Pony

I wash/rinse in cold water, and put in the fridge for 24 hours. Then they get wrapped and put into the freezer.

ETA: Just realized I commented on this post 12 years ago. 

Still utilize acid in my marinades for poultry and rabbits. Yum.


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## muleskinner2

It used to be common practice to let game birds hang in the shade, guts and all. Until the feathers began to fall off. I wouldn't worry too much about and ice bath. When we butchered chickens we threw them into a snow bank and left them till they quit flopping. Then took them in the kitchen, scalded them and plucked the feathers. In the summer we would chop their heads off and toss them on the lawn, then bet each other on how far they would run.


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