# Agonizing Over Power



## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Gotta vent a little............

I am frustrated with myself that I cannot seem to come to a conclusion on the question of on-grid vs off-grid for our eventual retirement home on 85 acres in MO.

It would cost $10k to get power to our building site (per White River), and would require the razing of a 30 foot by 1,700 foot piece of our wooded property. I hate the thought of scaring the property like that...but then I tell myself that the cleared land would make for decent wildlife food plots.

When I do all the economic analysis, and assume a 5% annual increase in power costs from the grid, 8 year battery life, yada, yada, yada, I still cannot get economic payout on the solar plan.

So I add $$ value to the lack of power lines, saving trees, fewer (hopefully!) power interruptions...and I still have trouble.

I really want to do solar, and am willing to live with the restrictions it would impose...but my strictly analytical side is holding me up!

Lastly (but not of least importance) my wife is not sold on solar. She is worried that she will be too limited by the system (I already follow her around the house and turn off lights!). 

Before we finalize the layout of the buildings and roads, I really need to have this issue settled. Otherwise I risk having to do re-work or worse yet, end up with a less than ideal layout.

If there were already power to the site, it would be a no-brainer for me. But the $10k and mowing down of 1.2 acres of trees has me grinding my teeth.

Anyone else been through this exercise lately? I'd like to hear your take.

edit: forgot to mention...building will start in anywhere from 6 months to 3 years, depending on how badly they drive me crazy at work


Tim


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

What size solar electric system did you figure you needed?


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I think energy costs are going to go up more than 5% in all honesty. In your shoes I think I would go off grid, even having a diesel generator to back it up (grid tie is the best back up IMO) Going to take a while to pay it off but probably less than you might over the next 15 years. 

On the other hand..... happy wife happy life.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Will you have access to natural gas?


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## AVanarts (Jan 2, 2011)

It would cost us about the same to get power to our 40 acres in Washington State. We decided that we could live with less power and go off grid.

It largely depends on how much power you really must have.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

I do plan to have a propane tank, and would like to have a propane generator as back-up to solar.

I have used several solar calculators that say I need about 5kw. I do not want to be prematurely killing batteries or having to nag my wife about every electron she spends. 

I plan to build with an emphasis on reducing summer cooling as opposed to reducing winter heating, simply because I plan to have a masonry heater and I have 85 acres of mostly oak. 3 or 4 ductless mini-splits would do cooling duty, depending on the actual final layout and square footage. I do not think I will get my wife to agree to under 1,800 square feet. We have been living in 3,600 so long, I will consider it a victory to get under 2,000.

I really see summer AC as a potential threat to my solar plans. High thermal mass, southeast orientation, partial berming...all will help. But MO/AR border area has some pretty good cooling degree days to contend with. And I must admit, I do not like it above 80F. So the assumed AC need jacks up the cost of any system I need to install.


Tim


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

It is no question that "grid" power right at this time is "inexpensive" . . . . 
But in these troubled times *nobody* can give an accurate idea of what the future will bring . . . . . 
But for sure electric rates will go up . . .

Yes you have a job ahead of you to get wife to "down size" . . lol

Investigate heat pumps........
Super insulation........well worth it down the road...
A couple 1000 gallon propane tanks (buy your own)
Grid or not a propane backup generator would be a good idea.
Premium batterys can/will last longer than '8' years.

Your post sounds to me like you would be very capable of looking after and taking care of a battery based system.................


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

How many routinely desulphate their batteries?


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Where are you? If workable, look into swamp coolers. The a/c is going to kill that plan.


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## rockhound (Sep 25, 2009)

30 X 1,700 ft of firewood will last you a long time, BUT not forever. Your woods will look different after you start harvesting firewood no matter how you do it. My point is by simply living there, the looks of the place are gonna change. Personally I wouldn't give the electric co that much money, just wouldn't.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

IMO..
The thought of going off grid means that one has decided to live a more conservative lifestyle and desires a level of independence. Owning your own power supply requires another important responsibility to your life and a constant awareness of energy usage. If you can commit yourself to these terms, off grid is the way to go.

Commiting yourself to this lifestyle means a change in mindset. The equation of luxury and necessity becomes a big factor. The level of comfort through luxury becomes a factor in the investment. The more luxury one plans or requires, the more cost invested. More luxury, bigger system. Bigger system, more maintenance. Longer payback.

I had the same dilemma. The power co. wanted 10k to run power to me. I decided to go solar and invested 6k in a small system to supply me with the very basics. I kept it small and simple so not to burden myself with huge costs of replacing batterys when needed and low maintenance. Comparing my maintenance to monthly electric bills, I win hands down and my system has paid for itself a few times now BUT at a cost. I lost a lot of convenience but adjusted my mindset and lifestyle to fit what I have to work with.

In a nutshell, if you have enough resources to supply yourself with a system to supply all of your necessary things and wanted luxury, go for it. Just don't forget that you adopted another family member that needs attention.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

If you build the house RIGHT, you can vastly reduce the need for heat or AC. Use ICE forms for well insulated concrete walls not only for the basement, but the upper floor area as well. LOTS of thermal mass and insulation is the key. You'll spend more initially, and gain it back forever.

We have a lot of thermal mass in an insulated slab floor, huge fireplace, and 10" outside wood walls, (double 2x4 + space ) and it can be 90 degrees outside and 20 degrees cooler inside. I use one minisplit ( which is a small heat pump for those that aren't familiar with them) to cool the core area when the temps get in the 100 range.....and a good ( large, belt driven ) whole house fan to suck cooler night air in so even the mini isn't needed until late afternoon. 

When I built in 1985, a lot of today's technology wasn't around, like ICE forms, soy based foam insulated ( it was formaldehyde based then ), and PEX infloor heating. Today, I'm convinced I could build a home that would need even far less energy than our current one ( 2300sf story/half )

On the solar/grid payback: Another thing to factor in, which is hard to put a price on, is the independence of being off grid. My guess is the grid is going to be less reliable in the future, with the potential to be gone completely for a variety of reasons, and having your own power source will be priceless.


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

The "nagging" question for me is: How committed to this change of comfort and familiarity is Mrs. Tarbe? 

We survive no grid electric with generators available, 12 inch thick walls, Fat insulation above a "cathedral ceiling, and a concrete slab floor. Then when all else fails there is shade outside for waiting out the cruel, summer high noon.

Best of luck to you both!


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

I echo what others have said. We moved into our offgrid house and you alter your lifestyle to fit your needs. If you must have 4 mini-splits for AC then most likely you would want to be ongrid, in my opinion. If you are also geting up there in age it may be hard to maintain a solar system -- replacing batteries, moving panels, etc. We don't have AC and my wife does laundry when the sun is shining. It helps you be in tune with nature, which is what it sounds like you are. 

Also I wouldn't bet on 8 years out of batteries unless you are going with really high end forklift batteries or some such.


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

Can the road way be part of the power path? or vice versa,

out here the power poles are usually on the side of the road way, your going to have some clearing for a road I would guess.

solar has come down in price a lot the last few years, 

you take that 10 thousand it looks like it would go a ways to the solar unit, I do not know about your tax situation but currently there is some tax credits the way I understand it, have you checked in to any other type of credits or grants?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

It pains me to write this but here goes;
Hows your an wifes health . . .down the road 10 years it might be much more difficult to processes your fire wood. Cruel things happen to folks with age . .
.
Heres my point, if ten years down the road you decide you need the "grid" then the price to bring it in 'then' could have perhaps doubled...........


Now for the good stuff; Forget a few PV panels and put that money into insulation.
The more insulation the easier $$$ to have AirC.

Yes TnAndy could build you a house that would be easy to heat and cool......

For consideration; A power trailer . . . .A trailer with a rack of tilted PV panels, Inside a set of batterys, an inverter and all the controls. This to power things as your home is built . . off grid. . . .A small Honda 3000i gas genny to help out.
Batterys in the trailer could be low end Trojan T105's . . . . .. then later when your snug in your new home get a good set of batterys.......


I'm just full of ideas of how to start over . . . .
but its not in the cards for me . ..


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

farminghandyman said:


> solar has come down in price a lot the last few years,
> 
> you take that 10 thousand it looks like it would go a ways to the solar unit, I do not know about your tax situation but currently there is some tax credits the way I understand it, have you checked in to any other type of credits or grants?


To clarify my earlier post to the OP -- you could build a very powerful solar system for 10k. Not enough for 4 mini-splits and a whole bunch of other electrical needs, but if you can alter your lifestyle somewhat 10k could build a very nice solar arrangement. PM me and I can tell you exactly what I would buy with $10k, having built our solar system for our home.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Jim-mi said:


> I'm just full of ideas of how to start over . . . .
> but its not in the cards for me . ..



Me neither Jim.............


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

vicker said:


> Where are you? If workable, look into swamp coolers. The a/c is going to kill that plan.


Ozark County, MO. Humidity is too high for ideal swamp cooler operation, I think.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

1,700' is a long run. My first thought is to re-site the home closer to the power.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

12vman said:


> IMO..
> Just don't forget that you adopted another family member that needs attention.


Exactly!

I think that is the reason for some of my wife's trepidation. I have been warning her about how careful one must be to keep the batteries happy. She is not quite there yet.

I will keep "working on her".


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

TnAndy said:


> If you build the house RIGHT, you can vastly reduce the need for heat or AC.


I do plan on very high thermal mass. Picture ICF with internal block walls filled with concrete and foot thick native rock on the exterior. Slab floor and a 10 ton masonry heater. My slab is going to be thick and very well reinforced!!


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Rick said:


> The "nagging" question for me is: How committed to this change of comfort and familiarity is Mrs. Tarbe?


It is all about her at this point. I never thought she'd insist on buying 85 acres 3 miles from the nearest pavement. So even after 30 years, the girl still has some surprises for me! I am hoping she will come around to seeing how some compromise on power availability is well worth the independence.

Me, I survived 4 years as a Marine Grunt, and I currently camp on the property year 'round. I don't like it hot....but I have lived 20 years in Houston, Louisiana and Mississippi...'nuff said!


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

PorkChopsMmm said:


> If you must have 4 mini-splits for AC then most likely you would want to be ongrid, in my opinion.
> 
> Also I wouldn't bet on 8 years out of batteries unless you are going with really high end forklift batteries or some such.


You may well be correct on the 4 mini-splits. I am estimating on the high side to be safe. 

As far a batteries, I am a long way from done researching, but fork truck, Solar One and Surrette are looking promising. I am sure there are other options that I still need to consider.


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

Check out the Northern Arizona Solar and Wind forums. They are immensely helpful. You will read that every solar enthusiast has a set of "starter" batteries where they learn how to treat batteries, even if they don't think they will. The enthusiasts choice is how expensive will there first mistake cost them?

I thought I could dodge the bullet but sure enough 6 months after install when I was away my 8 battery 48v bank dropped to 6v (!) due to a phantom load. I am using 6v 225 amp hour batteries from Sam's club -- $89 a piece. Even though I did damage they are still working fine. I am looking to replace them by next winter.

Long story short... batteries can come and go before you get solar figured out. Once you are.up and running and known your limitations then they can take care of themselves. It takes a while to get to that point, however.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Harry Chickpea said:


> 1,700' is a long run. My first thought is to re-site the home closer to the power.


No way! If I had to do that, I'd be :Bawling:

The spot we have picked out for the home site is without doubt the primo spot on the whole place......with one exception......the spot 2,700 feet from power is even better! Ouch!


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Well, thanks for all the replies and thoughts. I really appreciate it!

Mostly, you guys are just confirming what I think I already know and believe about going solar. 

I will continue to research, and I will continue to bombard my wife with reasons to abandon the grid!


Tim


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

PorkChopsMmm said:


> I thought I could dodge the bullet but sure enough 6 months after install when I was away my 8 battery 48v bank dropped to 6v (!) due to a phantom load. I am using 6v 225 amp hour batteries from Sam's club -- $89 a piece. Even though I did damage they are still working fine. I am looking to replace them by next winter.
> 
> Long story short... batteries can come and go before you get solar figured out. Once you are.up and running and known your limitations then they can take care of themselves. It takes a while to get to that point, however.



I will remember this! Thanks!

Tim


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

If the climate is anything like WV, there is probably way less than 30 days when you really wish you had an AC. I would only be semi-miserable in my cabin maybe 14 days total. And, if I would have had a fan, would have been fine. I had very small amount of electric. Not enough for a fan.
ETA;
I'm originally from SC, so I hate hot too.


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

When you figure out the long term cost of the grid electricity are you also factoring in the other fees and taxes that go along with it? And those will increase as well. My KWH charge for electric is about 12 cents/kwh, throw in the connection fee and taxes and you can increase that to almost 17 cents.

Also, you're in the same boat I'm in with my wife. I'd love to go off grid just because I want to, not because it's economical, it would make me feel better. But, if I did that my wife wouldn't want to alter her life style in anyway and not have to think about what she's using. Try and size that! lol


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

You could build a small guest house near the road and run a VERY long extension cord... 

There are ways of doing something along those lines, but they are likely illegal, and absolutely are very dangerous.

Once you start talking air conditioning you can forget solar. Batteries - as was previously stated NEVER let your first set of batteries be anything other than cheap training batteries. You WILL ruin them. We all have.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Go for the gold . . .if it is to be 'off grid'

Like I said build a power trailer and use the standard work horse Trojan T105. . . .
be happy to get four years out of them by which time you ought to be settled in.
Then the big guys......
while your pipe dreaming have a look at the really good premium bats.
1--Rolls-Surrette . . .the 2-KS-33PS . . .A system I installed used these (2 volts each)

2--HuP solar-One . . . .

3-IBE . . .

4-GNB Absolyte .. . . . .TnAndy and I know about these . . .. 

5-East Penn Deka Unigy . . .

Pricy yes, very much so. . . .But the good stuff can last a long time.....

These that I have listed have absolutely NO comparison to sams club stuff quality wise.

The off grid job I installed the big Surretts on, the owner put in a small apartment on one end of the very large barn. The "barn" used 12 inch cement blocks for walls . .anyway he put in a electric stove (to my dismay) . . . .the system is powered by a Bergey 10K wind turbine . . and a back up propane 15K genny. . . .The system handles the electric stove just fine (gulp) 

The point is It can be done. The better equipment will have a good sized up front cost . .. . .But smile as you address yourself as the CEO of your own power company.


Go for the Gold . . . . . .


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## jdrobison (May 28, 2012)

you can cut a lot fewer trees if you get the utility to go underground. but the cost is still high.


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

vicker said:


> If the climate is anything like WV, there is probably way less than 30 days when you really wish you had an AC. I would only be semi-miserable in my cabin maybe 14 days total. And, if I would have had a fan, would have been fine. I had very small amount of electric. Not enough for a fan.
> ETA;
> I'm originally from SC, so I hate hot too.


Building on vicker's point, I would check your seasonal temps. Especially night time temps. We had a couple of 95+ degree days here and we survived the day just fine by having the windows open at night, closing them during the day, and using ceiling fans. Our place isn't super-insulated or with any mass. If you have those 2 things (and don't put windows on the west side of your house!) I think you can make it by with either no air-conditioning or just a mini-split for the bedrooms at night.


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## AVanarts (Jan 2, 2011)

Jim-mi said:


> Go for the gold . . .if it is to be 'off grid'
> 
> Like I said build a power trailer and use the standard work horse Trojan T105. . . .
> be happy to get four years out of them by which time you ought to be settled in.
> ...


Isn't the big issue with batteries to not undersize the battery bank and thereby overtax it? After that maintenance.


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

You can undersize and oversize them. Too small and you drain down their power to fast or don't have enough available. Too big and you may not have a big enough solar array to charge them up fast enough. It is an art more than a science -- I am still learning.


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## k9 (Feb 6, 2008)

I know i am not going to live forever, my wife is younger than I and my expectation is that she will out live me, do you want her to be left with a solar system that she may not like, understand, ect... as she gets older? just sayin....


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

jdrobison said:


> you can cut a lot fewer trees if you get the utility to go underground. but the cost is still high.


White River quoted me over double the cost, and I had to dig the trench and fill it back in!

I ruled out underground real quick! They obviously do not like having their lines underground. :teehee:


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

k9 said:


> I know i am not going to live forever, my wife is younger than I and my expectation is that she will out live me, do you want her to be left with a solar system that she may not like, understand, ect... as she gets older? just sayin....



Funny you should mention that....we had that discussion last night. Your point is very valid and one we are factoring.

Honestly, I don't see her staying out here on 85 acres in the middle of nowhere without me. I suspect the place would have new owners pretty quickly.

One of the reasons I am still considering solar is we are fairly young. I would be reluctant to expend the upfront cost and suffer the learning curve if we reasonably only had an expectation of 5 or 10 years in the retirement place before we'd need to make a move. We are 54 now...so hopefully, if we retire in 1 - 2 years, we'd have a good long run in this place.

But, you just never know.

Edited to add: My wife is a week older than me....so she is the geezer of the family!


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

That is a very good point about battery "size"......
So while your doing all this "look forward" . . make a load chart of all your present electrical equipment. 
What is the watts / amps that a unit draws.
How much time per day / week is it used.
What can be deleted in your new place. . .and still keep wife "happy"
. . . .is a dish washer *really* necessary (electric and Hot water)
. . .Yikes . . an electric clothes dryer . .2-3-4000 watts . .(Clothes line out in the sun)
. . . .not your case, but a teenager lost without her curling iron . .1000 watts etc.

So get an idea of what your going to need in KWH 

All this so as to determine inverter-battery-etc. sizes.........
When you have some figures now add in a 'fudge' factor of at least 50% (100% would be better)

Maintenance / watering that 48 volt bank of Surrettes does take a bit of time but is no big deal...........
Smile . . . .you are your own power company............


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## blufford (Nov 23, 2004)

Maybe you could move into the basement during heat waves.


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## mike554 (Jun 9, 2012)

My wife and I just built our home with the intention of being off grid although right now we are hooked to the grid. I haven't had the time to get my panels mounted. We picked out all of our appliances based on energy efficiency. Anything that produces heat is propane. I'm heating right now with my 50 gal water heater with the intention of installing an outdoor boiler.
We don't really need cooling since we live in the mts of NC. We are averaging about 400 to 500 kwh per month without doing any conserving. I'm still using a lot of power tools also. I know cooling is going to be a big issue for you.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

New here.
great thread with great advice
we have taken on almost the identical situation in the Texas hill country.
we went off grid.
Wow what a learning experience.
I will echo, start with the less expensive batteries. i am now struggling to keep my expensive rolls bank going and may go with some cheaper batteries until we get where we need to be.
Insulation is the key. we live in a 2k sq ft home built out of papercrete blocks with r38 in the ceiling(will be increased) One minisplit with some creative window management keep it tolerable in this texas heat. looking at triple didgits this week. pool time. Mini splits are the way to go
my wife takes pride in telling people that we are off the grid.
backwoodssolar.com out of idaho is a good bunch of people. everybody that works there lives with alt systems most of them off grid.
No matter how much homework you do, you have not done enough.
But I say go for it.
we to have that view from the porch that would have been ruined with 15k of wires and poles. 
Now when the power goes out in the valley we turn on every light.,


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Hey Alaska

What exactly are you fighting with your batteries? Do you not have enough panels to keep them from discharging too far? Problems with a charge controller? System just undersized for the demand?

Maybe you aren't sure yet...thought I'd ask. 

Wires, poles and mowed trees is not what I'd be looking forward to. I suppose a body can get used to it. Not sure I want to try!


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

There are several incentives offered by federal, state and utility companies. They can make a huge difference.

As example, here is WA state we pay about 9 cents /KWH. If you have a solar system producing power and you are selling it back to the power company, with the proper mix of equipment sourced from WA state, you can get up to 54 cents /KWH.

On the federal side, you can easily get a tax credit for 30 percent of the system cost.

I highly encourage you to see what is available.

Here are some links to get you started.

Federal tax credit
Federal Residential Renewable Energy Tax Credit

Missouri incentives
DSIRE: Incentives/Policies by State: Missouri : Incentives/Policies for Renewables & Efficiency


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

_


tarbe said:



Hey Alaska

What exactly are you fighting with your batteries? Do you not have enough panels to keep them from discharging too far? Problems with a charge controller? System just undersized for the demand?

Maybe you aren't sure yet...thought I'd ask. 

Wires, poles and mowed trees is not what I'd be looking forward to. I suppose a body can get used to it. Not sure I want to try! 

Click to expand...

_ Undersized system im sure
Im sure we did not equalize often enough. It was hard last summer with 80 days above 100 degrees. the batteries would get really hot in equalize mode.
I did not realize how one cell here and one cell there could go down hill so much faster than others.
We are getting closer to where we want to be.
But of course the more electricity you make the more you use.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Alaska I hope you are aware that even the good batterys do not like triple digit heat.
Published optimum temp is 77 F
It is suprising how a battery's output falls off with heat ......


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

Jim-mi said:


> Alaska I hope you are aware that even the good batterys do not like triple digit heat.
> Published optimum temp is 77 F
> It is suprising how a battery's output falls off with heat ......


Jim-mi is it output only that would be affected in extreme heat, or the life of the batteries also?

Heat may be what is harming our Trojan L-16s. No output issue, but there are one or 2 cells out of 12 that are not in sync with the others. They face the South, and the first year I didn't have temperatures compensation sensor, and only equalized every 3 months or so, trying to keep the metal plates from eroding.

I would say equalize monthly, even in an underutilized system. Our bank cycles by noon, even in winter, and most overcast times.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Regarding heat and the batteries....

I had already determined that if I go off-grid, I would have my batteries in an at least partially (if not fully) bermed "root cellar" in order to moderate the temps the batteries see. Close to the house and close to the panels to minimize run lengths.

I cannot imagine trying to keep batteries under 85 degrees in summertime South Texas, above grade! Quite a challenge...


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I don't profess to be a battery expert by any means.
But I have read many many communications by Jamie Surrette .
He is a greatly appreciated contributor on another list of dealer / installers that I'm on.
And with his (company) track record of building good batterys . . .I have no reason to dought his word. Perhaps his Co. has some charts / data online . . .haven't looked in a long time.. . . . .
I suspect that each time a bat gets into the triple digit temps it has a "tiny" amount of life "used up".

Yes to a lot of creative thinking to the Texas folk to keep your bats at a reasonable temp..................


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

I treat my batteries like a family member. I keep them in the main part of the house with me so I know if they're too cold or too hot. 

I have mine on a rack near the foot of my bed in the bedroom with the charge controller in full sight. I know at a glance on what's going on. Pop the caps now and then to see if they are low. 

Treat your battery like it's your pet. Keep an eye on it and give it attention. You wouldn't stick your cat in a room and only check in on it a couple times a week, would ya? If ya did, you wouldn't have a very nice pet..


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## nadja (May 22, 2011)

Why don't you try finding someone in the local area living on solar already, where your land is , and see if they like it ., Ask them what and what not they can run, pitfalls etc. Go to the local solar sales place (don't buy anything from them) and ask them if they can give you some leads to people already living full time on solar. That would be a real eye opener for you and your wife.


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## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

Superinsulation & radiant barrier are a must for central TX. Also, a de-humidifier uses less electricity than an AC, and the lower humidity really makes it feel cooler.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

yeah
Im sure the heat is a major issue. Upper 90's all week again. My batteries are in a seperate building , our solar shed. No AC and equalizing sends them above the heat tolerance in the summer. ?????????????????????????????????????


On another note does anybody have a system monitor they are excited about. I would love to have a dependable system. I would love to look at my computer and see what every thing is doing.


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## John Haylow (Apr 23, 2006)

Propane generators do have advantages. Are they not harder on fuel than gas?
John


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Yes . .its a BTU thing......
But I'll take a propane genny over gas any day of the week . . . .
The cleaner burning, much longer engine life,--to me-- far off sets the fractional difference in the fuel consumption...........


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

John Haylow said:


> Propane generators do have advantages. Are they not harder on fuel than gas?
> John



Like Jim says....a BTU thing.

Propane is low 90,000 per gallon

Gasoline is around 120,000/gallon

Diesel is around 140,000/gallon.


For years, diesel was cheaper than gasoline, and a bargain, due to the higher fuel value. It finally caught up.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

nadja said:


> Why don't you try finding someone in the local area living on solar already, where your land is , and see if they like it ., Ask them what and what not they can run, pitfalls etc. Go to the local solar sales place (don't buy anything from them) and ask them if they can give you some leads to people already living full time on solar. That would be a real eye opener for you and your wife.


There are a couple of events in Texas this year that we plan to attend.

One in Dallas that allows you to tour a number of solar powered homes/facilities...you can ask the owner questions etc.

The other is a renewable energy fair in Fredericksburg.

Hopefully these will help us get educated!


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

Battery life is shortened by high temperatures--something like by half for every 15 degrees over 77 degrees F. So a week at 92 degrees is like 2 weeks at 77. Our batteries are in an enclosed battery box in the garage, vented to the outside through a fan controlled by battery voltage. Our first set, many years ago, was a used telephone company battery set, replaced because of cracked cases by another similar set that lasted over 10 years and was sold as salvage when we moved from that house. Our current set is a fork lift type of battery and is now about 13 years old and doing fine. When we moved, we brought our entire PV and wind system, except the big batteries, with us and reinstalled it all, even though our current place is grid connected, using the grid as back up. Regarding current prices of PV systems, my son was recently quoted $4/watt for a grid tied system, installed by a professional PV installer. This is for an awning type of mounting on the south wall of his house. Prices have really come down in recent years.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

tarbe said:


> There are a couple of events in Texas this year that we plan to attend.
> 
> One in Dallas that allows you to tour a number of solar powered homes/facilities...you can ask the owner questions etc.
> 
> ...


 Hey tarbe , we are in mason county ,
the texas event is a good one if they have it this year I hear rumors it is no more.
If you are anywhere near the hill country we would not mind a tour.
And I also suggest contacting mavericksolar.com . great guy


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## miDan (Jul 14, 2012)

Harry Chickpea said:


> You could build a small guest house near the road and run a VERY long extension cord...
> 
> There are ways of doing something along those lines, but they are likely illegal, and absolutely are very dangerous.
> 
> Once you start talking air conditioning you can forget solar. Batteries - as was previously stated NEVER let your first set of batteries be anything other than cheap training batteries. You WILL ruin them. We all have.


A small guest house or utility building by the road may be a cheaper alternative, and running a sub service to the main house. 4/0 direct burial would probably supply 100amp service to the main house without dropping the voltage to bad, with home owner work, and of course a competent electrician to run the calculations and direct things it could be feasible. 

Plus the benefit of having a place to stash the inlaws and kids when they want to come visit, but you still want to have some privacy/quiet time.


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