# Why would you dock a dog's tail?



## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

I don't understand why tail docking is a good idea. I'm looking for an Australian cattle dog; my last one was born Stumpytail, but they're too rare for me to expect to get one. Now I'm finding only pups with "tails already done", or older dogs that have been docked. They don't do it in Australia, they think a working dog uses his tail as a rudder; I think it's just plain mutilation and tails are part of a dog's communication system. Sometimes I think it's just so a dog never presents with its tail between its legs. And it's too common for a dog to have problems from tails being cut too short. What about "phantom pain" that amputees suffer - wouldn't it be worse at the end of the spinal colum than just a limb? Getting a tail stepped on by cattle doesn't seem very likely either, I've seen Catahoola leopard dogs work so close to the ground you wonder they don't get belly blisters. Stickers is another bugaboo, so too is frostbite.

How do I justify my preference for a natural tail to a breeder?


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

You don't justify it. You simply state that you would prefer a long tail. If you want a long tail, you make arrangements and pay 100% of the price of the puppy before the age of docking, which is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 days of age. Forget about any sort of refund if you change your mind and don't take the puppy.

If you want to get all self-righteous about it, you aren't going to find any breeder who will do business with you.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Not sure. There are breeders who share your 'justification'. 

I have owned ACD's with dockings and those w/o. 
I have never seen a lick of difference between them, personally. :shrug:

It is a challenging breed.


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## Immaculate Sublimity (Apr 30, 2003)

phantom pains would only manifest themselves if the subject knew what it felt like to have the limb there in the first place... tails are docked at 3 days -before nerve endings and blood vessels are completely formed (or so I've heard) any tail dockings I've done the pups cried more about being removed from the litter mates than they ever did about the tail docking.


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## Cynecagsd (Apr 1, 2011)

I believe, and this is my opinion only, that tail docking is purely cosmetic. The only other reason I can see for docking a tail is traumatic injury to the tail in which amputation is the only means of treatment. Same goes for ear cropping IMO, but thats me and I dont have a breed that has either the tails cropped or the ears done.

If you want a breedin which tail docking is done, then I agree with Oregon. Contact the breder before the pups are born and purchase a puppy, telling the breeder that you do not want to have the tail docked. Just say personal preference. They may look at you funny but if you already have purchased the puppy most will probably comply. Same goes for ears, some breeders do ear crops very young, or before they place the puppies, again pay early and request that he ears not be done.

You dont have to justify your preference just that it is your preference. Some breeders might think you are some fruit cake, but honestly if they wont conform to your personal request on a puppy that you have already purchased and paid in full for, Im not sure Id want to get a pup from them anyway.


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## Harmony_Meadows (Nov 4, 2007)

I don't, personally, understand the desire to dock tails in breeds like Aussies. That said I can understand it in some. Some of the bigger breeds with little hair to pad those heavy whips can do serious damage banging it into doors and the like. I knew a family that had Irish Wolfhounds. Two of their dogs had to have tail amputations because of sores that wouldn't heal. I have seen a couple of Dobies with the same issues. I was looking at an Aussie once, and brought my Aussie/Border mix with me. The woman was astounded at my dog's tail. She kept saying over and over again "I have never seen one with a tail before". I saw one of her adds a year or so later.....for undocked Aussies!


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

*Australian cattle dogs* don't have docked tails.

"Tail
The set on of tail is moderately low, following the contours of the sloping croup and of length to reach approximately to the hock. At rest it should hang in a very slight curve. During movement or excitement the tail may be raised, but under no circumstances should any part of the tail be carried past a vertical line drawn through the root. The tail should carry a good brush."

http://www.akc.org/breeds/australian_cattle_dog/


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Harmony_Meadows said:


> I don't, personally, understand the desire to dock tails in breeds like Aussies. That said I can understand it in some. Some of the bigger breeds with little hair to pad those heavy whips can do serious damage banging it into doors and the like. I knew a family that had Irish Wolfhounds. Two of their dogs had to have tail amputations because of sores that wouldn't heal. I have seen a couple of Dobies with the same issues. I was looking at an Aussie once, and brought my Aussie/Border mix with me. The woman was astounded at my dog's tail. She kept saying over and over again "I have never seen one with a tail before". I saw one of her adds a year or so later.....for undocked Aussies!



http://www.theaustralianshepherd.net/info/docking.shtml


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

I don't get tail docking either. The only reason I could see for it is if the dog's tail is prone to injury, but what is the dog doing that would make its tail prone to injury? There's a good argument for docking in order keep the stuff ON your coffee table, however. 

I'm not *against* the practice, but have to say I don't like docked tails. As a groomer, you really have to get access to the area under the tail for proper hygiene, and if the dog decides to clamp its little nubbin down, there is no way you can get a hold of it.

Tails also make excellent handles; should your dog happen to go after something, and you miss the collar, you can still grab the tail. They're also great for breaking up dogfights safely. 

Dogs use their tails for communication. Cutting them off is like giving them a speech impediment IMO.

They use their tails for balance. I'm sure they are able to compensate for the lack of a tail just fine, as I've seen some spectacularly athletic dogs with docked tails, but again--what is the purpose of docking? 

I was considering getting a Standard Schuazer at one point, but one of the major sticking points for me was that their tails are docked. I could, as others mentioned, pay for the puppy in advance and request the tail not be docked, but I would have to pick out my puppy basically at birth, and I wouldn't know anything about that particular dog's health and temperament at that stage.

Docking is now illegal in most of Europe, and I genuinely like seeing Schnauzers, Dobies, and Rotties with tails--I think their tails look good on them! Most of the arguments I hear from show people in the US is that their breed has never been selected for tail carriage, so they would have to add a whole new set of breeding parameters which could hurt the breed. I would hope that judges would give some leeway in the department of tail carriage if docking were to be outlawed. At least long enough to give breeders a chance to breed in whatever tail carriage is desired.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

http://www.cdb.org/News/news38.html


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

I, myself do not care for docking so I don't have a breed that needs it.
I do feel that some breeds do.


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## kara_leigh (Jul 28, 2010)

The pups we recently adopted have docked tails. I'm not sure why. They are Aussie mixes, mom is pure aussie and not sure who dad is. Since they can't be used for show, I have no clue why they were docked in the first place. Probably just b/c mom had a docked tail. I kind of wish they weren't, I prefer dogs with tails. Oh well, they are stinking cute anyway. I just don't understand why they went through the hassle of docking them, but couldn't be bothered with worming them, shots, or anything else.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

in some breeds happy tail is so common docking was done as a prophylactic measure at a time when medical science wasn't up to the task of adult docking for trauma & keeping the dog alive afterward. in those breeds it continues as a standard practice.
in other cases like britain, it was done to mark the dog as a working dog belonging to commoners (because some of the cur dogs they used for working the lord's cattle were born cur tailed or natural bob tailed others were docked to help identify them as working dogs and is also probably why the commoners' terriers were docked) so the king could tax the sporting dogs (sighthounds, scenthounds, pointers and setters) and companion dogs owned by the nobility.
in modern usage, i know of a couple of houndsmen that do a long dock (take 1/3 of tail rather than leave 1/3) to help ID their dogs. combined w/ freeze branding it helps keep shady folks (usually shady hunting "guides") from stealing cat hounds they can't afford to buy. FTR, unless you have a special relationship like family, a really good cat hound can't be bought for less than $10,000 (most i ever heard paid was $36,000).


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## LoneStrChic23 (Jul 30, 2010)

My hubby's family always had Weimaraners and their tails were docked long on the day they were born....they used a red hot blade and the cut was bloodless. They had one pup they left with the tail on, and he had what I call "Happy Tail Syndrom" (all of my Great Danes suffered from this,lol) and he constantly beat his tail to a bloody pulp, then when in the field working (they hunted pigs & birds), his bloody tail would get caught, torn on something ect. ect....This went on for months, several vet trips and antibiotics before they finally had the tail amputated.

Hubby joked that when I buy my next Dane puppy he should come with a Weim tail so we don't get beat to death with it.....My fridge door actually has dents in it from my last Danes tail, lol 

On ear cropping, I've had natural ears and cropped ears....love the look of a good crop, but hate the tape work.....plus you can't beat big, ol, velvety floppy ears on a Dane, so my next puppy will be left natural.....and according to the breeder I reserved a puppy from, he must be paid in full a week before cropping date, or I don't get him natural eared (fair to me)

I've heard those for cropping say that natural ears are more prone to ear infections & hematomas...both of which I have dealt with A LOT in the various natural eared Danes I've fostered.....more so than any of my cropped Danes....But it's preventable with proper ear care for the most part....Not to mention I know of lots of puppies lost on the table during a crop job..

Some breeds do better with a docked tail depending on their purpose and environment, but I hate the teeny tiny "nub" docks......At least breeds like Weimaraners & Visulas have some functionable tail left on.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

I don't like docked tails at all. 
But, sometimes docking is necessary for medical reasons for the specific dog itself. I don't think it is wise to do it on a whole breed basis though.


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## Immaculate Sublimity (Apr 30, 2003)

personally I love stumpy butts on breeds that are supposed to be docked- they wriggle their whole body in a wag instead of just swaying back and forth. But then, I also love a nice ear crop on Dobes, Danes, and Boxers.... wouldnt want one with natural ears. Just doesnt appeal to me... but then on this same token, I pierced my daughters ears as babies as well - what a horrible horrible person I must be. I honestly dont think my rotts or dobes or danes or boxers or even daughters remember a thing.


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## amylou62 (Jul 14, 2008)

Immaculate Sublimity said:


> personally I love stumpy butts on breeds that are supposed to be docked- they wriggle their whole body in a wag instead of just swaying back and forth. But then, I also love a nice ear crop on Dobes, Danes, and Boxers.... wouldnt want one with natural ears. Just doesnt appeal to me... but then on this same token, I pierced my daughters ears as babies as well - what a horrible horrible person I must be. I honestly dont think my rotts or dobes or danes or boxers or even daughters remember a thing.


I'm with you. Dobie owner here and have both tail and ears done. Pit male doesn't and his tail is always sore and bleeding at the tip from hitting something while wagging. Plus that tail will leave bruises on my legs.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Docking a pup's tail at 3 days is much easier on the dog than amputating the dog's tail later in life. 

I have a breed that doesn't require either tail docks or ear crops, but I do like to remove the front dewclaws on my pups. I take them in for their 3-day check with the vet, I hold them while he removes them, and they only get mad because we woke them up. 

Dealt with many dogs when I worked in vet clinics who had caught their dew claws on something and torn them and they needed pain meds, bled like crazy, limped, etc. If they had to be amputated the dog had to be put under, it was harder to remove them cleanly, higher risk of infection, etc. 

Also met dogs who had fractured their tail on something from wagging it too hard, getting it slammed in a door, etc. Try putting a bandage on a tail that will stay put! Doesn't work at all.... and if you have to amputate the tail of an adult dog they have to be put under, tail bleeds like crazy, high risk of infection because you can't really bandage the area, the dog wakes up and needs pain meds, and generally seems traumatized by the whole experience.

I didn't think Aussie Cattle Dogs were docked either. At least I don't remember having ever met one that was.... now Aussie Shepherds are born tail-less, but that's a totally different breed.


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## LoneStrChic23 (Jul 30, 2010)

Immaculate Sublimity said:


> personally I love stumpy butts on breeds that are supposed to be docked- they wriggle their whole body in a wag instead of just swaying back and forth. But then, I also love a nice ear crop on Dobes, Danes, and Boxers.... wouldnt want one with natural ears. Just doesnt appeal to me... but then on this same token, I pierced my daughters ears as babies as well - what a horrible horrible person I must be. I honestly dont think my rotts or dobes or danes or boxers or even daughters remember a thing.


Very few dogs look a elegant as a well bred Dane with a good show crop 

Love the look........but my next Dane is having natural ears for sentimental reasons....my heart dog who I lost to cancer had natural ears, plus I don't want to mess with taping...

Many Danes look awful IMO with natural ears due to incorrect ears set, flying nuns, ect. ect. My breeder has very nice natural ears in her lines though so I'm not worried about that on my future puppy.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

LoneStrChic23 said:


> I've heard those for cropping say that natural ears are more prone to ear infections & hematomas...both of which I have dealt with A LOT in the various natural eared Danes I've fostered.....more so than any of my cropped Danes....


I don't like the process of cropping either, but I can almost see cropping ears as a preventative against ear infections (too bad they don't crop Cockers and Standard Poodles, they get it the worst). I rarely see ear infections in cropped ears. Then again, proper ear care should prevent ear infections as well. 

Again, with Standard Schnauzers, show breeders crop and that was another sticking point for me with the breed. Even though I love the look of cropped ears on Schnauzers (combined with the slant of the eyebrow it makes them look evil  ) I don't know that I'd want to deal with the aftercare involved. Then again, even with natural ears you still have to do some gluing; if a Schnauzer doesn't have proper ear set with its natural ears, it looks ridiculous.



> Some breeds do better with a docked tail depending on their purpose and environment, but I hate the teeny tiny "nub" docks......At least breeds like Weimaraners & Visulas have some functionable tail left on.


Yes! If you're going to dock, please leave enough of a tail to use as a handle, that's all I ask. I can't stand these Cocker BYBs that leave a mere nubbin; how am I supposed to get hold of that thing in order to clean the butt that just pooped on my table?


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

LoneStrChic23 said:


> Very few dogs look a elegant as a well bred Dane with a good show crop


I don't know; they look good if the dog is standing just right with handler holding the ears up, but those tall "elegant" crops are falling and flapping all over the place when the dog is in motion, or even when the dog is just standing there relaxed. I think Danes look great with natural ears. Boxers also. 

However, I think Dobies look so much more striking with a good (not too long) crop. With their natural ears they tend to look houndy.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I can understand docking a dog's tail if it is a breed that gets the tail broken. But only a partial dock so the irresponsible end is cut off, but not the entire waggedy thing. Also, even dogs with tails will wag their whole body, it has nothing to do with the tail being docked. As for cropping ears to prevent infections, balderdash. I've had long eared dogs with no ear infections. The infection is more likely from fur/hair growing in the ear canal or poor nutrition. Ears are cropped for looks. Dogs need natural ears for proper doggie communication.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Maura said:


> As for cropping ears to prevent infections, balderdash. I've had long eared dogs with no ear infections. The infection is more likely from fur/hair growing in the ear canal or poor nutrition. Ears are cropped for looks. Dogs need natural ears for proper doggie communication.


Ear infections are caused by a combination of things. Lots of hair and poor air circulation create a fine breeding ground for infection. Cropping allows for better air circulation, but I still think that proper ear care is better, and in fact if the crop is too short, the ears are actually harder to clean.

A decent length crop will still allow the dog to communicate with its ears. But I groom a pittie whose ears are cut completely OFF. The poor dog has no ears whatsoever. now THAT is assinine. Without ears, a dog is hard to read, and when I first met this dog, she made me a little nervous as I was getting mixed messages with her body language. I am sure other canines feel the same way.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

I have two ACDs and they both were docked before I got them. All the ACDs I've ever seen (TN and surround states and out in NM) were docked. I recall hearing it was to prevent injury in working dogs. 
Reegardless, I prefer no docking occur.


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## LoneStrChic23 (Jul 30, 2010)

Wolf Flower said:


> I don't know; they look good if the dog is standing just right with handler holding the ears up, but those tall "elegant" crops are falling and flapping all over the place when the dog is in motion, or even when the dog is just standing there relaxed. I think Danes look great with natural ears. Boxers also.
> 
> However, I think Dobies look so much more striking with a good (not too long) crop. With their natural ears they tend to look houndy.


IMO a GOOD show crop on a Dane is one that can stand on it's own.....Still haven't figured out why the overly long/never a chance in the world of standing properly crops became popular! Hate that and the dog looks so silly with a floppy crop. My friend has a beautiful Harl boy she just finished and at 2 years old, he was still having to be in tapes a week or so before showing, and have the tapes removed shortly before entering the ring.

The breeder of my future pup has such a nice cropper! They do the bloodless lazer cropping and I've never, ever seen one of her pups in tapes longer than 6 months...and that was a pup whose owner wasn't diligent in taping.

Can't stand the short crops either, and have noticed some local cruddy Dane breeders doing short pit crops on their dogs...looks awful!

No....ear crops aren't nessesary, but it doesn't mean I won't admire a good crop on a well bred dog.

I do have dew claws removed though...We had a rescue Weim with Von Willibrands...he caught his on who knows what, ripped it 7" up his leg and had this 7" strip of peeled skin with a dew claw hanging on the end....So nasty and horribly painful!


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

LoneStrChic23 said:


> I do have dew claws removed though...We had a rescue Weim with Von Willibrands...he caught his on who knows what, ripped it 7" up his leg and had this 7" strip of peeled skin with a dew claw hanging on the end....So nasty and horribly painful!


Yeah I do agree with dewclaw removal, especially if they're on the rear legs or if they're big and floppy. My GSDs have all kept their dewclaws, though, they don't seem to get into trouble with them.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

This is all quite interesting - I can see why "large tail bangers" would be docked so they can live with people. I think experts have long reported on the effects of ear cropping. 

So thank you, Oregon, for your words to help me set up a pup for the ranch - I think "long tail" is a better choice than "natural tail" because I really didn't want to offend, especially a breeder I was hoping to get a good dog from. (I think if I ask for a pup to be left with a long tail I should not only pay in advance, but commit to taking it was well. That does leave me out of the pick of the litter & that Kismet Moment of Finding My Dog - I'll just have to see how long I can last without any dog at all.) When all's said & done, I just prefer a natural dog bred for behavior and let the looks follow.

I want to thank everyone who's weighed in on this thread;I've learned a lot from the links. Just hope I've not been too obnoxious :ashamed: - opinionated should be my middle name, but I've only respect for folks who are just doing what they feel is the right thing by their dogs.



Wolf Flower said:


> Ear infections are caused by a combination of things. Lots of hair and poor air circulation create a fine breeding ground for infection. Cropping allows for better air circulation, but I still think that proper ear care is better, and in fact if the crop is too short, the ears are actually harder to clean.
> 
> A decent length crop will still allow the dog to communicate with its ears. But I groom a pittie whose ears are cut completely OFF. The poor dog has no ears whatsoever. now THAT is assinine. Without ears, a dog is hard to read, and when I first met this dog, she made me a little nervous as I was getting mixed messages with her body language. I am sure other canines feel the same way.


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## victory (Mar 2, 2010)

RedDirt Cowgirl said:


> This is all quite interesting - I can see why "large tail bangers" would be docked so they can live with people. I think experts have long reported on the effects of ear cropping.
> 
> 
> I know I am late for this thread, but I gotta put in my two bits..
> ...


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

I am debating th eidea of leaving my future puppies with natural tails (std poodles) there is a movement to do so within the breed. Only issue is many people want to tail docked so i might conider docking the tail of a pup as long as I receive the full price before birth. I've also considered doing a half half litter to see th edifferences int he puppies movement, and such.


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## jeff1981 (Dec 31, 2008)

Tail docking simply shows lack of intelligence on those who dock. That's it.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

that is a biased & useless statement Jeff. as a matter of fact for the western houndsmen that dock their hounds it was a brilliant move. they went from multiple dogs stolen almost every year to one between the three of them in the last five years. it was far more effective than the freeze branding ever was because the scum stealing their dogs would simply refreeze a bigger mark over the original, but they can't put back what isn't there.
additionally prophylactic docking at 3 days is less traumatic and since the pup grows up w/o the tail it doesn't affect their physical actions. while adult reactive docking causes pain and severely affects their physical performance for some time thereafter.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

victory said:


> RedDirt Cowgirl said:
> 
> 
> > This is all quite interesting - I can see why "large tail bangers" would be docked so they can live with people. I think experts have long reported on the effects of ear cropping.
> ...


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

I haven't read all of this, but certain breeds were also cropped or docked for tax reasons.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I'll share my grandfathers reason for docking springer tails. Essentially it's too weak to keep up with the dog's wagging which amplifies with the flushing task. They wag a weak boned tail so hard it dis-joints or even breaks causing adult pain. Where-as 3 day old docking leaves no phantom pain (and I agree after dozens of springers) yet saves them future pain. I have seen un-docked springers and that tail is seriously thin and weak...... yet it is a handsome apparatus breeding might enhance.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

Zee puppies will be too cute, non? 




HOTW said:


> I am debating th eidea of leaving my future puppies with natural tails (std poodles) there is a movement to do so within the breed. Only issue is many people want to tail docked so i might conider docking the tail of a pup as long as I receive the full price before birth. I've also considered doing a half half litter to see th edifferences int he puppies movement, and such.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Haven said:


> I haven't read all of this, but certain breeds were also cropped or docked for tax reasons.


Tax reasons? That is interesting. Can you explain it?


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## sticky_burr (Dec 10, 2010)

its to keep other dogs from grabbing it in fighting dgs possibly hunting or guard dogs as well . 
i would say never as you can read the dog's attitude from tail position


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

mekasmom said:


> Tax reasons? That is interesting. Can you explain it?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docking_(dog)



> In early Georgian times in the United Kingdom a tax was levied upon working dogs with tails and so many types of dogs were docked to avoid this tax.[2] The tax was repealed in 1796 but that did not stop the practice from persisting.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

actually the tax was levied on dogs w/ tails because all the sporting dogs used by the nobles (who could afford this luxury tax) had tails while the curs & terriers used by the commoners were either natural bob tailed (hence the word curtailed) or docked. so by default working dogs which were necessary to the farming industry were tailless.

sticky burr you are mistaken, docking (and cropping for that matter) was extremely uncommon in match dogs in the USA nor is it common in matching & baiting dogs in the rest of the world. for example japanese tosa, korean dosa, chinese shar pei, presa canario from the canary islands, bully kutta & gull terr from pakistan & northwest india, the english bullterrier, staffordshire bullterrier, red smut & blue paul from britain, the irish staff, the dogues of bourdeaux, bourbanais (sp?), and marseilles from france are/were all tailed during their use as matching or baiting dogs. also as noted in my previous post most non british breeds like the german dogs it was mainly a preventative for happy tail. dogs used for dangerous game (curs, hounds & bull/mastiff) are not normally docked. the ones that i know of that are were done to ID the dogs in case of theft & it actually deterred the theft problem for the few guys that did it.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

mekasmom said:


> Tax reasons? That is interesting. Can you explain it?


see my previous posts but not the one to jeff


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## Bisket11 (May 6, 2010)

IMO I thought all dogs were related to the wolf. That the wolf has natural ears and tails. Mankind has changed what is natural to benefit himself with out considering his partner.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Bisket11 said:


> IMO I thought all dogs were related to the wolf. That the wolf has natural ears and tails. Mankind has changed what is natural to benefit himself with out considering his partner.


People have been altering bodies of themselves, other people, and other species for thousands of years. They don't just limit it to dogs. I suppose it's human nature.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bisket11 said:


> IMO I thought all dogs were related to the wolf. That the wolf has natural ears and tails. Mankind has changed what is natural to benefit himself with out considering his partner.


Not a whole lot of uses for a wolf.
Lots of uses for a dog
I sure am glad people have changed nature.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Wolf Flower said:


> . I could, as others mentioned, pay for the puppy in advance and request the tail not be docked, but I would have to pick out my puppy basically at birth, and *I wouldn't know anything about that particular dog's health and temperament at that stage.*


Sorry breeder friends, this is one of the biggest myths to be attached to puppy buying EVER. Wolf Flower, if you have a breeder who has dogs of solid health and temperament, who live up to the breed standard, close your eyes and pick a pup. 

Am I saying that there is no personality difference in pups? No,_ of course not, _that would be ridiculous. 
But what I am saying is that in well-bred dogs, any pup in that litter should be able to fit into any home that is looking for a Schnauzer <or insert your breed> with minimal difficulty. And if I have to worry about the health of X pup over Y pup in this litter - why the heck is that breeder getting my money?

Are there some Golden pups who would do better at obedience then agility and vice-versa? Yes, of course. But any well-bred Golden should be able to do either or both. And if you're looking for a Golden, you should be getting a happy, active, bouncy, mouthy dog no matter what pup you pick - what you're talking is matters of degree, and these should be small.

I work with rescues and mutts. These dogs come from no background whatsoever, and still, with an owner who is minimally committed and knowledgeable, these roll-the-dice mutts still fit into just about any home. Dogs are 90% what you make them. The breeder supplies the raw material, a dog with the health and instincts to herd, fetch, breed look, coat and character - and the owner does the rest.

Wolf Flower, if there is a breeder of Schnauzers who you know has good quality dogs, go on and pay for a pup at birth and don't sweat it. You'll get a Schnauzer, kwim? And perhaps tragedy might strike, not every pup makes it to 9 weeks, but it's a rather small gamble that knowing Schnauzers and liking Schnauzers and the parents being good Schnauzers that you'd end up with a Schnauzer you just can't live with.
Me, I wouldn't hesitate. Just make sure the breeder knows you're serious. There's a local breeder of Aussies here and when I found out they were planning a litter I said "Call me the day the pups are born, let me pick out a girl, I'll pay you in full right then and there but DONT dock her tail." They didn't call until the pups were a week old and docked and I didn't buy one. I'd _love_ a dog from that breeding - but not enough to live with a tailless dog for the next 15 years. They said they didn't think I meant that I_ really _didn't want the tail done, just that I wanted first pick (which they were actually giving me at that point, that wasn't an issue) - I said how important can that be at a day old? Make sure that the breeder understands that this is important to you. I've saved 2 dog's lives by being able to grab the tail. I won't have a tailless dog.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

I have Min Pins, docked tails and ears cropped, they came that way. (rescues) I have one with natural ears. He looks great too. I see nothing that is gained in doing either procedure on this particular breed. My female does not have the regal look of a cropped ear, it is more of a "cute" shaped cut, or the person doing it did not know what they were doing. I have also seen some really odd looking crops, too short and it has kind of a mutalation look on the poor dogs head.
I guess if I were to want a pup un cropped or docked I would be willing to pay up front for a natural puppy, with some sort of health guarantee.


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

I have a non-docked Corgi. If you tell him you're going to pull his tail he'll spin around in a circle, trying to bite it before you can grab it. 

You ain't seen funny until you've seen a long-bodied, short legged dog try to catch his tail! ound:


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Otter said:


> Sorry breeder friends, this is one of the biggest myths to be attached to puppy buying EVER. Wolf Flower, if you have a breeder who has dogs of solid health and temperament, who live up to the breed standard, close your eyes and pick a pup.
> 
> Am I saying that there is no personality difference in pups? No,_ of course not, _that would be ridiculous.
> But what I am saying is that in well-bred dogs, any pup in that litter should be able to fit into any home that is looking for a Schnauzer <or insert your breed> with minimal difficulty. And if I have to worry about the health of X pup over Y pup in this litter - why the heck is that breeder getting my money?
> ...


I agree ..somewhat..
50% of temperament is genetic yet the other is a toss up to how it is raised. I also agree that breed instinct traits must be a fit to the new owner but sometimes you get a mixed bag and don't know until a tad later.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

1. The only reason I would ever have a dog's tail docked is for medical issues (damage that couldn't be repaired, or cancer)...

2. That goes for cropping a dog's ears or removing dew claws (we had to have a dog's dew claws removed once)...

3. Last, but definitely not least, I would never buy a dog from a breeder when there are so many dogs (a large number of purebred) in shelters waiting for homes.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> I have a non-docked Corgi. If you tell him you're going to pull his tail he'll spin around in a circle, trying to bite it before you can grab it.
> 
> You ain't seen funny until you've seen a long-bodied, short legged dog try to catch his tail! ound:


we had a cardigan corgi that would try that. ound:
I miss Wilbur


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

Tail docking itself is not a bad practice and I find it useful for horses.

Just buy puppies that aren't docked. It's that simple. No need to give docking breeders a telling.


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

Ravenlost said:


> 1. The only reason I would ever have a dog's tail docked is for medical issues (damage that couldn't be repaired, or cancer)...
> 
> 2. That goes for cropping a dog's ears or removing dew claws (we had to have a dog's dew claws removed once)...
> 
> 3. Last, but definitely not least, I would never buy a dog from a breeder when there are so many dogs (a large number of purebred) in shelters waiting for homes.


You don't use working dogs then, I've never seen a rescue herd well nor be a good LGD.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Ravenlost said:


> 1. The only reason I would ever have a dog's tail docked is for medical issues (damage that couldn't be repaired, or cancer)...
> 
> 2. That goes for cropping a dog's ears or removing dew claws (we had to have a dog's dew claws removed once)...
> 
> 3. Last, but definitely not least, I would never buy a dog from a breeder when there are so many dogs (a large number of purebred) in shelters waiting for homes.


I agree about cropping docking and dew claws
except those purebreds in the shelter may not be pure at all. 
and if they are, it is just as big a gamble in health and temperament as a mix.
if not worse.


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

Bisket11 said:


> IMO I thought all dogs were related to the wolf. That the wolf has natural ears and tails. Mankind has changed what is natural to benefit himself with out considering his partner.


Dogs are no longer natural. Temple Grandin points this out. She uses the floppy ears as an example. Only wolf pups have floppy ears, and they grow out of them. Our dogs are relatively always children. On a side note this takes very little time, I've seen wolf dogs and their ears bend at a young age as well as some wolves kept as pets.

Ex: Dairy Cattle and dehorning.
Ex: Cobs and docking
Ex: Sheep and shearing

My point is that there becomes a point when it is unjust *not* to dock an animal's tail or shear it. If we were still raising mouflons and wolves we wouldn't have this problem but we do.
This _natural_ idea doesn't fit. These animals aren't natural animals no matter how much we want them to be.


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## Chief Cook (Apr 24, 2011)

One of our hounds had to have his tail docked, not once, but twice. We had him in at the vet's office and he wagged it right up against the exam table leg. He hit it hard enough to break it open. He never stopped wagging it until we were all splattered with blood. Doc took off the damaged end and we thought he would heal up just fine. They are tough dogs afterall. We used Bitter Orange around it and he must have thought it was salsa cause he ate a big spot out of what was left. We ended up taking him to another vet, ours was out of town, and when he got through there wasn't enough tail left to keep everything covered. During this time he had a tick in his ear, reason for first vet visit, was allergic to the meds and lost a big bunch of hair, while checking the tail damage found he had an anal tumor, size of baseball, and had to be neutered. Nothing like a great big half naked, rump shaved, near tail-less hound dog. He lived to trail and tree for several more years. And we loved him for everyday he was with us. His lack of tail never slowed him down.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Chief Cook said:


> hounds had to have his tail docked, not once, but twice. ..He never stopped wagging it until we were all splattered with blood. .. We used Bitter Orange around it and he must have thought it was salsa cause he ate a big spot out of what was left. ... found he had an anal tumor...Nothing like a great big half naked, rump shaved, near tail-less hound dog. He lived to trail and tree for several more years. And we loved him for everyday he was with us. His lack of tail never slowed him down.


 
:hysterical::hysterical:


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

jeff1981 said:


> Tail docking simply shows lack of intelligence on those who dock. That's it.


Man's way of imposing what he feels is beauty on another creature is what it really boils down to...

Not much different than foot binding or corset training...


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

simi-steading said:


> Man's way of imposing what he feels is beauty on another creature is what it really boils down to...
> 
> Not much different than foot binding or corset training...


Ignorance... there were and are several practicalities to tail docking.
*As mentioned earlier:* tax laws, the threat of a tail getting stuck in cart wheels, it being stepped on, it damaging property (a real threat and not funny when you see the damage it does to the dog and property). 

Docking _may_ look good to some but I guarantee that it is not just done for looks


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Oh yeah. .. I forgot, we got that huge chance of a tail getting stuck in a cart wheel still... 

I do get the damage... had a friend that kept his Saint Bernard in the house... broke everything.. Never seen one of those docked.. .Seen lots of little dogs done though...... .but many dogs are done for looks... thank dog shows and breeders for a lot of them.

Now days there isn't as much need... Unless you want to fight your pit.. a tail less dog is better to have in the fight..


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

simi-steading said:


> Oh yeah. .. I forgot, we got that huge chance of a tail getting stuck in a cart wheel still...
> 
> I do get the damage... had a friend that kept his Saint Bernard in the house... broke everything.. Never seen one of those docked.. .Seen lots of little dogs done though...... .but many dogs are done for looks... thank dog shows and breeders for a lot of them.
> 
> Now days there isn't as much need... Unless you want to fight your pit.. a tail less dog is better to have in the fight..


Are you this oblivious to the world around you? I see dogs pulling carts around farms as well as goats... getting them jammed in doors. There is need.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Farmer2B said:


> You don't use working dogs then, I've never seen a rescue herd well nor be a good LGD.


You haven't met some of my Border Collie mixes. Tippy could round up the horses faster than any purebred. She was a BC/Blue Heeler mix.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Ravenlost said:


> You haven't met some of my Border Collie mixes. Tippy could round up the horses faster than any purebred. She was a BC/Blue Heeler mix.


Thanks goes to the purebred herding dogs in her blood and the breeders who bred them; otherwise she would just be another undocked wolf killing your livestock


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

jeff1981 said:


> Tail docking simply shows lack of intelligence on those who dock. That's it.


WOW, little harsh are we? 

I am a highly intelligent individual, as are many others on this board. Guess what? I have a dobermann, YES docked and cropped, Horrors!

Hasn't affected him in a negative manner a day in his life. But it did save our legs, and him from damage. He wags so hard, he sometimes wags himself over. 
Our little rescue pitbull always has a bloody tip, from wagging too hard. 
Years ago, I had a pitbull that licked a hole in her tail and I had to have it amputated. Took months to heal, but she was fine. Lived years after that. 

There is nothing wrong with cropping or docking. Generally it's done in a very humane manner. Tail docking at 3 days, no different than circumsizing a child. 

Ever seen the horns burned off a baby goat or cow? How about the horns 'scooped' off the head of an adult cow with cutting snips? I castrate everything myself. Even did the cat. Slice, yank, lots of screaming. They get over it in minutes. 

If you don't want a docked or cropped pet, don't buy one. Let others make their own choices.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

It is just what has been done so long to some breeds that many people still do it. It's like circumcision in a baby boy. It's really not necessary, but has just become a custom.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Farmer2B said:


> Are you this oblivious to the world around you? I see dogs pulling carts around farms as well as goats... getting them jammed in doors. There is need.


I've spent a lot of time in the country, and the city, and can't say I've ever seen a dog pulling a cart... I have seen them pull sleds though.. 

Yes, I can imagine someone out there does use them to pull carts tough... Wonder what percentage of those dogs have a clipped tail?


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

tailwagging said:


> I agree about cropping docking and dew claws
> except those purebreds in the shelter may not be pure at all.
> and if they are, it is just as big a gamble in health and temperament as a mix.
> if not worse.


And neither may that dog you buy from a breeder, plus the gamble in health and temperament is just that...a gamble, no matter how/where you get the dog.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

I think that the people who have the ACDs confuse them with the Australian shepherd which DOES have both docked and natural bobtails......COMPLETELY different breeds!


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## troy n sarah tx (Dec 31, 2005)

Sometimes I wished that they docked French mastiff tails. I always have a bruise on my legs from him being overly happy and wagging it into me. Our old one cleared off our coffee table a number of times. But alas....they are still tailed.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

simi-steading said:


> I've spent a lot of time in the country, and the city, and can't say I've ever seen a dog pulling a cart... I have seen them pull sleds though..
> 
> Yes, I can imagine someone out there does use them to pull carts tough... Wonder what percentage of those dogs have a clipped tail?


I know 3. 1 dob 2 rottweilers. yup all 3 docked


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Ravenlost said:


> And neither may that dog you buy from a breeder, plus the gamble in health and temperament is just that...a gamble, no matter how/where you get the dog.


true life is a gamble but buying from a breeder who knows their line stacks the odds in your favor. kinda like a good milk doe. a scub may work out fine or may not. getting one from clean proven dairy lines has a better chance.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

tailwagging said:


> I agree ..somewhat..
> 50% of temperament is genetic yet the other is a toss up to how it is raised. I also agree that breed instinct traits must be a fit to the new owner but sometimes you get a mixed bag and don't know until a tad later.


I agree with you that a good part of temperament is genetic.
But we buy purebred dogs for the consistency. If someone knows and likes Schnauzers, has researched the breed and decided that a Schnauzer is a good fit for their family, then pretty much any well-bred Schnauzer pup will fit into their family. It's kind of the entire point behind researching a good breeder. Once you've found a good breeder, you should be able to live with pretty much any pup they produce. Exceptions occur with any living thing, but it is a rare exception.

Also, that dogs are _very_ plastic and easily molded.



Farmer2B said:


> You don't use working dogs then, I've never seen a rescue herd well nor be a good LGD.


:hysterical:ound::hysterical:
Ok, thanks. I needed that laugh tonight.
I'll be sure to tell my uncle who has trained some of the drug sniffing dogs with the highest prices on their heads - he gets them from the pound.
You clearly also weren't around when I was offered a _large_ sum of money when a fellow saw me working my Thunder - who had cost me $55 at Animal Control 2 years before that.


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

Years ago, my boss brought her yorkie pups to work and asked me to "take them to their appointment" at the vet.

So in I walk with these five ADORABLE, tiny little puppies, announce I'm there for Ms. XXX's appointment, and I'm sent to the room in the back. Out comes the vet, picks one up and, before I knew what he was doing, whack! It shocked me so bad I actually started crying. He then proceed to dock their tails and crop their ears.

When I got back to work, I stormed into her office with the pups and actually threatened to beat the carp out of her for pulling that on me KNOWING how tender-hearted I was/am about animals. She didn't fire me, but I wouldn't speak to her (other than what my job demanded) until she finally quit a few months later.

Anyway, that was my experience with docking/cropping and I'll never do it to any dog of mine unless it was medically necessary.

Stepping off the soap box now...carry on.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

hippygirl, I am sorry you had that experience.

Growing up my mom raised Schipperkes for awhile. 
Now THAT is a breed with seriously docked tails.

I assisted the vet through the docking of several litters
and he used a local anasthetic for each and every one of the pups. 

They never did more than slightly whimper at the whole event. :shrug:


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

hippygirl said:


> Years ago, my boss brought her yorkie pups . He then proceed to dock their tails and crop their ears..


He cropped ears on Yorkie pups - right there in front of you? Cropping ears on a Yorkie is like cropping ears on a Poodle, unheard of.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

hippygirl said:


> Years ago, my boss brought her yorkie pups to work and asked me to "take them to their appointment" at the vet.
> 
> So in I walk with these five ADORABLE, tiny little puppies, announce I'm there for Ms. XXX's appointment, and I'm sent to the room in the back. Out comes the vet, picks one up and, before I knew what he was doing, whack! It shocked me so bad I actually started crying. He then proceed to dock their tails and crop their ears.
> 
> ...


ummm they don't think they crop yorky's ears and not at that age that tails are docked


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

gone-a-milkin said:


> hippygirl, I am sorry you had that experience.
> 
> Growing up my mom raised Schipperkes for awhile.
> Now THAT is a breed with seriously docked tails.
> ...



yea skips are the most extreme docking


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

simi-steading said:


> Oh yeah. .. I forgot, we got that huge chance of a tail getting stuck in a cart wheel still...
> 
> I do get the damage... had a friend that kept his Saint Bernard in the house... broke everything.. Never seen one of those docked.. .Seen lots of little dogs done though...... .but many dogs are done for looks... thank dog shows and breeders for a lot of them.
> 
> Now days there isn't as much need... Unless you want to fight your pit.. a tail less dog is better to have in the fight..


You are very wrong.
If your dog was in a fight would you rather the other dog bite his tail or his throat?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

tailwagging said:


> ummm they don't think they crop yorky's ears and not at that age that tails are docked


If "they" are the show crowd, then no, they don't

If 'they" are the kind of folks who would toss a box of puppies at their assistant at work, there is _nothing_ that would surprise me. Yes, I've seen yorkies cropped, and cattle dogs docked, and once talked a fellow out of docking a litter of 5 week old puppies tails with a garden pruner because "the tails need done before they go to new homes" and it never occurred to him that it is done before he's looking to get a better price for them.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

I have a Jack Russel Terrier. He is a very well bred working dog. That means he kills things for a living. ****, possum, woodchucks, rats, etc. He is also bred to go down holes after game. He will take on game much larger than him. Having a long tail gives his prey another target, especially hunting in tight quarters like a den. JRTs are such frenetic hunters that they give no consideration for their own comfort or safety. A long tail in a tight den during a frantic battle will get injured, bit, broken, or even hung up. All of the overbred pet breeds were at one time bred for a real job, and the standards for tail docking goes back to that job. For pets I really don't care, but there are legitimate reasons to dock tails on certain working dogs.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Otter said:


> Ok, thanks. I needed that laugh tonight.
> I'll be sure to tell my uncle who has trained some of the drug sniffing dogs with the highest prices on their heads - he gets them from the pound.
> You clearly also weren't around when I was offered a _large_ sum of money when a fellow saw me working my Thunder - who had cost me $55 at Animal Control 2 years before that.


That's all about training not natural abilities. I can take any pound puppy & walk him up to a caged bobcat. Just because he gets excited doesn't make him a $30,000 cat hound. Breeds & types exist for a reason, some jobs can't be trained. You're arguing from a position of ignorance on this one.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Otter said:


> But what I am saying is that in well-bred dogs, any pup in that litter should be able to fit into any home that is looking for a Schnauzer <or insert your breed> with minimal difficulty.


Sorry, but that's NOT true. Well, it might be true of Schnauzers, I don't know, but it certainly isn't true of GSDs, which is the breed I have experience with. Temperament, drive, energy level, working ability, etc. can vary VASTLY in one litter, even with the best breeding there is. If I were to close my eyes and pick a pup, it's simply a roll of the dice, and I could end up with WAY more dog than I bargained for. Even picking a pup that seems to fit at 8 weeks of age can grow and mature into something quite different. Ask me how I know!


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Its funny how we can chop up animals for convenience such as spay/neutering, docking sheep, pigs or cattle, declawing cats, castration through banding, removing wolf teeth, de-beaking poultry and very few people say a thing about it. Spay/neutering a dog is going to have more long term affects on the dogs health then docking a dogs tail or cropping its ears will. Is it worse to do a cosmetic surgery with no side affects when done right or is a surgery thats done for convenience but has been proven to have an affect on the dogs long term health worse?


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

JasoninMN said:


> Its funny how we can chop up animals for convenience such as spay/neutering, docking sheep, pigs or cattle, declawing cats, castration through banding, removing wolf teeth, de-beaking poultry and very few people say a thing about it. Spay/neutering a dog is going to have more long term affects on the dogs health then docking a dogs tail or cropping its ears will. Is it worse to do a cosmetic surgery with no side affects when done right or is a surgery thats done for convenience but has been proven to have an affect on the dogs long term health worse?


Spay/neuter also has health benefits, so that kind of balances out the negatives. Despite that, a lot of people DO get emotional about spay/neuter. But spay/neuter saves lives through preventing unwanted litters, lessening the urge to roam, fight, etc. And while working in the veterinary field, I saw so many older intact bitches with life-threatening pyometra, that I cannot imagine why anyone would leave a non-breeding ***** intact.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Haven said:


> He cropped ears on Yorkie pups - right there in front of you? Cropping ears on a Yorkie is like cropping ears on a Poodle, unheard of.


It sounded a bit mellow-dramatic to me. I wonder if he didn't do the dew claws instead of the ears? They don't dock ears at the same age they would do tails anyway. I assume she was just so upset that she didn't understand what he was doing. They do not do ears at 2days. And they don't do tails later without anesthetic.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

wolf flower said:


> spay/neuter also has health benefits, so that kind of balances out the negatives. Despite that, a lot of people do get emotional about spay/neuter. But spay/neuter saves lives through preventing unwanted litters, lessening the urge to roam, fight, etc. And while working in the veterinary field, i saw so many older intact bitches with life-threatening pyometra, that i cannot imagine why anyone would leave a non-breeding ***** intact.


yes!!!


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

mekasmom said:


> It sounded a bit mellow-dramatic to me.


Not that this has anything to do with anything, but I'm gonna go all grammar-police on you  because I see people do this all the time and it drives me CRAZY.

The word is "Melodramatic". 

"Mellow" means laid back, calm, relaxed. When paired with the word "dramatic", ie "mellow-dramatic", it would mean "calmly dramatic", which doesn't make sense, and is probably the opposite of what you meant. 

*melÂ·oÂ·draÂ·matÂ·ic*

/&#716;m&#603;l&#8201;&#601;&#8201;dr&#601;&#712;mÃ¦t&#8201;&#618;k/ Show Spelled [mel-uh-druh-mat-ik] Show IPA 
adjective 1. of, like, or befitting melodrama. 

2. exaggerated and emotional or sentimental; sensational or sensationalized; overdramatic. 


noun 3. melodramatics, melodramatic writing or behavior. 



*Origin: *
1810â20; melodrama + (drama)tic 

Related forms melÂ·oÂ·draÂ·matÂ·iÂ·calÂ·ly, adverb. 
nonÂ·melÂ·oÂ·draÂ·matÂ·ic, adjective. 
nonÂ·melÂ·oÂ·draÂ·matÂ·iÂ·calÂ·ly, adverb. 
unÂ·melÂ·oÂ·draÂ·matÂ·ic, adjective. 
unÂ·melÂ·oÂ·draÂ·matÂ·iÂ·calÂ·ly, adverb. 


Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest.  Carry on.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

If I took a litter of tiny pups to a vet for an "appointment" for someone, thinking they were getting a few shots and a once-over, and instead had to stand there while the vet removed functioning body parts from those tiny things? Yeah, I wouldn't want to remember exact details either! 

I am against cropping, docking (save working dogs who are endangered by having those long tails or whatnot) and circumcising, since it's been brought up as "no different". All three are repugnant to me. 

I am appalled and disgusted at the idea of neutering a cat at home. Really, you should not have a pet if you will not provide humane care for it. 

I don't alter any living thing for "fashion". Never will. I have met people considering dock/crop for their newly purchased entire puppy, and I do not even understand it a little bit. Rather hope they never can find a vet who will do it... seriously, your four month old pittie is just fine with his ears. I don't understand anyone who can look at any living thing and remove parts for "looks". It churns my stomach. I look at my dog, and I cannot imagine trimming up his ears or shortening his tail. He is perfect the way he was made.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

jen74145 said:


> I am appalled and disgusted at the idea of neutering a cat at home. Really, you should not have a pet if you will not provide humane care for it.


Why? Do you think a home castration is any more traumatic for a cat than it is for a calf or a hog? I've seen cats go to the vet for this procedure and the car ride was way more traumatic than a home castration would have been. Please try to answer this question without anthropomorphizing.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Pops2 said:


> That's all about training not natural abilities. I can take any pound puppy & walk him up to a cage bobcat. Just because he gets excited doesn't make him & $30,000 cat hound. Breeds & types exist for a reason, some jobs can't be trained. You're arguing from a position of ignorance on this one.


Ok, try this - next time you're talking to someone who works a PD or Customs drug dog, tell them that ANY pound puppy who barks can do that job. Have fun with that.

No one is saying that you can just grab some random dog, the quote I was responding to said that NO rescue dog could do a job.
My Thunder was an awesome working dog. He moved everything from cattle to herding loose rabbits back to the shed. He was such a good working dog, I was offered huge chunk of change for him from someone who needed a working dog.
Rescues *can* work. They sniff drugs, find lost kids, run races, hunt game, you name it. Are you going to grab any random rescue and pull a job out of a hat and have it work out well? That's as silly as saying NO rescue dog ever, anywhere worked stock.




Wolf Flower said:


> Sorry, but that's NOT true. Well, it might be true of Schnauzers, I don't know, but it certainly isn't true of GSDs, which is the breed I have experience with. Temperament, drive, energy level, working ability, etc. can vary VASTLY in one litter, even with the best breeding there is. If I were to close my eyes and pick a pup, it's simply a roll of the dice, and I could end up with WAY more dog than I bargained for. Even picking a pup that seems to fit at 8 weeks of age can grow and mature into something quite different. Ask me how I know!


As it happens (I know I've mentioned before) my Grandpa bred GSDs, so I am familiar. The issues you are talking about are only common in dogs bred for intense drive - GSDs from Schutzund lines and similar situations - or poorly bred dogs.
If you go back and read what I wrote, you'll see that I said "once you pick a breeder". 
If you pick a breeder that breeds for that kind of drive, then you certainly may get way more dog then you can handle _"Even picking a pup that seems to fit at 8 weeks of age can grow and mature into something quite different" ~_ even if you wait to pick until 8 weeks, or let the breeder pick for you.If you want a Schnauzer for Schutzund, then you might be out of luck on the un-docked thing. But if you want a Schnauzer who was bred to be a Schnauzer, you might have to deal with slightly more or less prey drive and barking and other terrier fun, but you should certainly get a dog you can live with, who will act like a Schnauzer.

Bill Tarrant, who had more dog experience then you and me combined, said 2 things about picking a pup that stick out to me; "The most important part of picking a pup is picking the parents."
and
"Once you've found a good litter you may as well spend as much time praying as picking."
I agree with Bill Tarrant. Pick your breeder very, very carefully, and you'll end up with a good pup, barring the rare and drastic exception to the rule - which may happen no matter how much time you spend picking anyway.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

tinknal said:


> Why? Do you think a home castration is any more traumatic for a cat than it is for a calf or a hog? I've seen cats go to the vet for this procedure and the car ride was way more traumatic than a home castration would have been. Please try to answer this question without anthropomorphizing.


A cat is a predator with different nerve reflex and skin response then a prey animal.
They are also much more flexible and it is far harder to restrain them without causing additional trauma (both stress and bruising) without anasthesia.
Furthermore, unlike a calf or a hog, they can easily reach the area to lick at it, which can aggravate it, especially if the cut is either too big or ragged, as a home job is likely to be.

Having said that, I have never, personally seen banding cause undue stress to a calf - by which I mean that once you let them go, they are fine. But I have seen lots of stress with improper cutting and burdizzos, so I won't use those.

Castrating a hog at home most certainly CAN be very traumatic to the animal. If done by an experienced person, with a scalpel sharp knife, it generally works out well. But done by someone who isn't that good at it, or on a large adult, or with poor restraint (like is a problem with the cat) or with the same scalpel that is now dull from the 3 or 4 animals before - now it's traumatic.
Again, from my experience with it, any pigs born on my farm from now to forever, will be done by someone who knows what they're doing (which means, not me unless I get myself taught) with a new scalpel and before they are 24 hours old, to minimize pain and stress to the animal.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Otter said:


> A cat is a predator with different nerve reflex and skin response then a prey animal.
> They are also much more flexible and it is far harder to restrain them without causing additional trauma (both stress and bruising) without anasthesia.
> Furthermore, unlike a calf or a hog, they can easily reach the area to lick at it, which can aggravate it, especially if the cut is either too big or ragged, as a home job is likely to be.
> 
> ...


It's easy to restrain a cat, if you know how. You really didn't answer my question. I'll tell you what, from now on I'll give you the choice. In the future, when tomcats decide to take up residence here should I cut them, or shoot them?


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Otter said:


> A cat is a predator with different nerve reflex and skin response then a prey animal.


Cite please.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

jen74145 said:


> I am appalled and disgusted at the idea of neutering a cat at home. Really, you should not have a pet if you will not provide humane care for it.
> 
> I don't alter any living thing for "fashion". Never will. I have met people considering dock/crop for their newly purchased entire puppy, and I do not even understand it a little bit. Rather hope they never can find a vet who will do it... seriously, your four month old pittie is just fine with his ears. I don't understand anyone who can look at any living thing and remove parts for "looks". It churns my stomach. I look at my dog, and I cannot imagine trimming up his ears or shortening his tail. He is perfect the way he was made.


Oh really? Who said it was for fashion? Have you ever smelled tom cat spray all over your belongings? FOUL! 

I live on a farm. We already had 6 cats. All rescues, BTW. Under most circumstances, any tom cat who shows up stray here is shot on site. We cant have the ball spray around a place with children and customers, let alone our lives. We can't risk the fighting they would do with our own cats, that are all fixed, nor can I afford to feed hoards of tom cats that show up because the stupid neighbor won't fix their cats. Most of the toms that show up here are sick and aggressive.

This particular one happened to be friendly, just thin. In an act of unusual mercy, we caught him and I castrated him in the driveway right there. We let go of him and he sat down, licked his paw and never left. At this point, best cat we've EVER had, ever. Wouldn't claw a child if you yanked his toenails out one at a time. 

We have another tom now who showed up 8 weeks old, rail thin, deaf and dumb. AGAIN, in an act of mercy, we decided to feed him. Now he's 8 months old, still deaf, but friendly, happy and growing. In another month or so, I will castrate him, yes, at home, with a razor blade. He will recover, the discomfort will be very very short, and he will live a pampered life.
No different than the dozens of farm animals I do every year.

With out the two castrations, both of these cats would be dead a long time ago. Instead, I DID provide 'humane care' as you call it, and they are both happy and loved. Small price to pay I think. Don't judge.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

jen74145 said:


> If I took a litter of tiny pups to a vet for an "appointment" for someone, thinking they were getting a few shots and a once-over, and instead had to stand there while the vet removed functioning body parts from those tiny things? Yeah, I wouldn't want to remember exact details either!


 
People questioned it because the story did not add up.

1. Yorkies do not have their ears cropped anymore than a Bloodhound would have it's ears cropped.(_Someone will come on here now and say they have seen it done to Bloodhounds or Yorkies. There is always someone out there that has somehow seen it all, no matter how out of the ordinary_.)

2. Tails are normally removed on newborns. No vet would start chopping off puppy tails at that age during an office visit. (_yes. someone will come out of the woodwork now and say they have seen it_)

3. No vet would stand there in front of a client and "dock tails" then proceed to "crop ears" on a litter of Yorkie puppies like it was some outpatient procedure at an office call. Ears cropped by vets are done on the operating table under sedation. (_Yes we know breeders and old school vets have done home style ear crops on very young dogs. Anything is possible _ I am sure once again, someone has seen it_.)


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Otter said:


> Bill Tarrant, who had more dog experience then you and me combined, said 2 things about picking a pup that stick out to me; "The most important part of picking a pup is picking the parents."
> and
> "Once you've found a good litter you may as well spend as much time praying as picking."
> I agree with Bill Tarrant. Pick your breeder very, very carefully, and you'll end up with a good pup, barring the rare and drastic exception to the rule - which may happen no matter how much time you spend picking anyway.


Actually, I don't think the exceptions are altogether rare or drastic, but it all depends on what you want from the dog. If you are looking for the next multi-BIS winner, $30K bobcat dog, or national SchH champion, it's not just a matter of eeny-meeny-miney-moe--you really have to pick the *right* one.

If we're just talking about a pet, where the family does not require anything in particular from the dog besides health and nice temperament, then it's not so critical. All you have to do is pick the right breeder and avoid extremes--the extremely shy pup or the extremely busy pup--and you'll be fine.

As for me, I'm a bit of a dog-snob, and though I don't show or trial, I am very particular about what I want. Unfortunately, what I want is not what is currently fashionable in my breed (GSD), so I really have to pick my breeder AND my pup carefully. The number of people I would trust to pick a pup for me, based both on pedigree and the temperament of the particular pup, I can count on one hand.



lonelyfarmgirl said:


> In an act of unusual mercy, we caught him and I castrated him in the driveway right there.


I'm going to put that, in quotes, as my facebook status and see what kind of response I get.  

Because, you know... castration without anesthesia is not everyone's idea of "merciful".

I find it hard to believe that a cat would just sit there while you plucked him, cut open his scrotum, popped out his testicles, tied the cord and put it back in the inguinal canal.

Just curious, what happens if you get a bleeder? Do you simply shoot the cat, let him bleed to death, cage him up and hope he stops bleeding, or do you actually seek veterinary attention at this point?


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Wolf Flower said:


> Just curious, what happens if you get a bleeder? Do you simply shoot the cat, let him bleed to death, cage him up and hope he stops bleeding, or do you actually seek veterinary attention at this point?


What do you do when this happens to a $40 pig? Will you call a vet for a $200 call for a 40 dollar feeder pig? Why would I call a vet for a feral barn cat that has literally no value?


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

tinknal said:


> Why? Do you think a home castration is any more traumatic for a cat than it is for a calf or a hog? I've seen cats go to the vet for this procedure and the car ride was way more traumatic than a home castration would have been. Please try to answer this question without anthropomorphizing.


Perhaps. I cannot say.

But when people *choose* to take on a *pet*, rather than a food animal, that is a luxury. No one must have a cat or dog. If you cannot provide appropriate care, why would you ever get one?

When you need to feed your family, you do what you must. When you choose to get a pet, you are making a commitment that in our society, comes with some expectations.

You, however, need not condescend to me. It is rude and unbecoming.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> Oh really? Who said it was for fashion? Have you ever smelled tom cat spray all over your belongings? FOUL!


Yes. I bred for a time and thus had my own tom, as well as a neighbor's feral colony to cope with. I took male kittens to our vet to be neutered. 

I did not ever say neutering was for fashion. Ear crops and tail docks, with exceptions for working dogs, are.

Further, I am not disgusted by shooting an animal who shows up and is unwanted. But if you choose to care for it, then.... care for it.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Wolf Flower said:


> Spay/neuter also has health benefits, so that kind of balances out the negatives. Despite that, a lot of people DO get emotional about spay/neuter. But spay/neuter saves lives through preventing unwanted litters, lessening the urge to roam, fight, etc. And while working in the veterinary field, I saw so many older intact bitches with life-threatening pyometra, that I cannot imagine why anyone would leave a non-breeding ***** intact.


Neuter only directly protects from testicular cancer. Spay from ovarian/uterine cancer. Both of which have relatively low incidence of occurrence in intact dogs anyway. However pediatric spay & neuter have correlations with higher rates of other cancers. The prophylactic effect of S&N is achieved no matter the age, yet everyone is selling pediatric S&N as the only way to go. I personally won't do either until I have determined the dog's quality as a worker & whether it's worth trying to reproduce, which usually means age 3 or 4.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

jen74145 said:


> If I took a litter of tiny pups to a vet for an "appointment" for someone, thinking they were getting a few shots and a once-over, and instead had to stand there while the vet removed functioning body parts from those tiny things? Yeah, I wouldn't want to remember exact details either!
> 
> I am against cropping, docking (save working dogs who are endangered by having those long tails or whatnot) and circumcising, since it's been brought up as "no different". All three are repugnant to me.
> 
> ...


That is how you feel. Other people feel differently. It should be okay, but unfortunately many people who share your feelings are ignorant jerks. So they get all rude & confrontational to people w/curs, Australian sheperds & corgis because they are too ignorant to take he time to learn some breeds are NATURAL BOBTAILS. I have even heard people verbally attacking the owners of natural prick eared breeds like German sheperds for "cropping" the dog's ears. 
So instead of being judgemental get the dogs you want in the condition you want & let others do the same.
Why should someone that has cut dozens to hundreds to thousands of livestock waste time, energy & cause the cat additional stress, when he can do the procedure at home. Way back when there weren't a gazillion of them in TX, my uncles taught me how to barr a hog in the woods w/a nice sharp stockman's knife. We'd turn them loose & catch them again in the fall to slaughter. It really isn't that big a deal. Your views seem based on an insulated lifestyle. For most people here even a cat is a working animal not a pet.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Otter said:


> Ok, try this - next time you're talking to someone who works a PD or Customs drug dog, tell them that ANY pound puppy who barks can do that job. Have fun with that.
> 
> No one is saying that you can just grab some random dog, the quote I was responding to said that NO rescue dog could do a job.
> My Thunder was an awesome working dog. He moved everything from cattle to herding loose rabbits back to the shed. He was such a good working dog, I was offered huge chunk of change for him from someone who needed a working dog.
> Rescues *can* work. They sniff drugs, find lost kids, run races, hunt game, you name it. Are you going to grab any random rescue and pull a job out of a hat and have it work out well? That's as silly as saying NO rescue dog ever, anywhere worked stock.


Unless a dog has a defect or brain injury that affects it's ability to smell, pretty much any dog can be taught to detect. Heck w/my sense of smell, I can almost do the job. The only thing that will vary is their work ethic & their drive not their inherent ability. No one said rescues couldn't work just that there are certain jobs where the chance of success w/a rescue is lower. In fact the post you replied to HE said the HE had never SEEN a rescue that could herd or was a useful LGD. While he MAY have meant rescues were utterly worthless (we don't know), that isn't what HE SAID?
Like you, I believe finding the right pups from the right parents dramatically increases the chances of success. But some jobs are simply easier than others. maybe one in fifty purpose bred cat hounds is worth more than $5000 and maybe one in a thousand is a $30,000 cat hound. OTH I can go to the pound/shelter of your choice and put together a pack for bear or hogs. A pound puppy that would make a good cat dog is a one in a million at best.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Otter said:


> A cat is a predator with different nerve reflex and skin response then a prey animal.
> They are also much more flexible and it is far harder to restrain them without causing additional trauma (both stress and bruising) without anasthesia.
> Furthermore, unlike a calf or a hog, they can easily reach the area to lick at it, which can aggravate it, especially if the cut is either too big or ragged, as a home job is likely to be.
> 
> ...


I don't know, we used to barr wild hogs when I was a kid, being caught w/the dogs was more distressing than the barring.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

jen74145 said:


> Perhaps. I cannot say.
> 
> But when people *choose* to take on a *pet*, rather than a food animal, that is a luxury. No one must have a cat or dog. If you cannot provide appropriate care, why would you ever get one?
> 
> ...


Why not? You've been rude & judgemental even to the point of insulting people simply because they have a different opinion.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

jen74145 said:


> Yes. I bred for a time and thus had my own tom, as well as a neighbor's feral colony to cope with. I took male kittens to our vet to be neutered.
> 
> I did not ever say neutering was for fashion. Ear crops and tail docks, with exceptions for working dogs, are.
> 
> Further, I am not disgusted by shooting an animal who shows up and is unwanted. But if you choose to care for it, then.... care for it.


So, as a feral barn cat would you rather I shoot you, or castrate you?


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## Threeinhub (Dec 27, 2012)

It's already been mentioned that Australian Shepherds can be born without tails,
and I think Boxers too?

Just an interesting note to an earlier post from someone who said they adopted some Aussie mixes that had docked tails. The rescue group I am with has had a litter of Aussie mix puppies with some that were born with nub tails. Mom was a long haired labish looking dog, dad must have been an Aussie, pups were a mix a black & red tri, half of them had bobbed tails.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

tinknal said:


> What do you do when this happens to a $40 pig? Will you call a vet for a $200 call for a 40 dollar feeder pig? Why would I call a vet for a feral barn cat that has literally no value?


Oh, I don't know... you talk about how "merciful" you are... 

If I had a bleeder on a $40 pig that I was going to raise for food, I wouldn't call a vet, no. Should the pig bleed to death, we have roast suckling pig. 

But, since you can't eat cats, it's a bit different. Sure, barn cats have no monetary value other than that of rodent control. Human children don't have monetary value either. Should your children get sick or injured, what kind of "mercy" do you show them? Do you strap them down and suture them up without anesthesia?

I know, cats aren't humans. But compassion is compassion; preventing suffering wherever you can. You clearly have a different idea of it than I do.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Pops2 said:


> Neuter only directly protects from testicular cancer. Spay from ovarian/uterine cancer. Both of which have relatively low incidence of occurrence in intact dogs anyway. However pediatric spay & neuter have correlations with higher rates of other cancers. The prophylactic effect of S&N is achieved no matter the age, yet everyone is selling pediatric S&N as the only way to go. I personally won't do either until I have determined the dog's quality as a worker & whether it's worth trying to reproduce, which usually means age 3 or 4.


I'm not talking about pediatric spay/neuter. I don't think that is really good for dogs, when you can wait until they are physically mature, or close enough to it that the growth benefits from the hormones has been acheived. I have always done spay/neuter at 12-18 months of age for dogs, and I make dang sure there are no accidental litters within that time.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

The problem with hoping people just start breeding dogs with natural bob tails is thatthis trait could be considered an in-bred defect. Once you start breeding these things into dogs, you open them up to medial line defects and other congenital issues linked to the bob tail or screw tail type mutations. That is not a road most people would like to walk.


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

Haven said:


> People questioned it because the story did not add up.
> 
> 1. Yorkies do not have their ears cropped anymore than a Bloodhound would have it's ears cropped.(_Someone will come on here now and say they have seen it done to Bloodhounds or Yorkies. There is always someone out there that has somehow seen it all, no matter how out of the ordinary_.)
> 
> ...


So you're suggesting I made it up???????????????

WRONG!

The puppies were only a couple of days old and this vet did, IN FACT, do exactly what I said IN THE EXAM ROOM.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

jen74145 said:


> Yes. I bred for a time and thus had my own tom, as well as a neighbor's feral colony to cope with. I took male kittens to our vet to be neutered.
> 
> Further, I am not disgusted by shooting an animal who shows up and is unwanted. But if you choose to care for it, then.... care for it.


We cant afford to pay a vet to neuter our male cats anymore than we can afford for him to come do all the pigs calves and goats. 

We HATE HATE HATE shooting the feral toms that show up here sick and aggressive. This one wasn't. He was friendly and not sick. Clearly he had been someone's pet. We didn't want to shoot him. I would not have been able to live with myself after shooting a cat that obviously had been well cared for at one time. 

We did care for him and have cared for him and will until he dies. He is not a pet. Farm cats are rodent control, period, but the other option would have been death. Which would you have preferred? 

We wrapped him in a towel and did the job, using sterile technique of course. It took 10 minutes, and there wasn't more than a few drops of blood. When we let go of him he didn't even run away. He sat down and licked his paw as if nothing ever happened. There was a tiny spot of blood where he sat down and when I caught him to take a look a few days later, he wasn't even swollen. I am certain he doesn't remember a thing. No harm done. I saved his life instead.

To the poster with the bleeder question, very early on, as in years ago, I killed one calf from hitting a bleeder, and one piglet from cutting in the wrong place. I was devastated and felt horrible. Shouldn't have happened. BUT, BUT, the reason I began castrating our own, was because I paid the vet to come castrate our first male potbelly born here. Guess what? It was a slice and yank procedure, no different than I do, and THE PIGLET DIED.

Yes, the vet killed him. I could have done that for free. Now I do all my own. After those two that died early one, haven't lost a one, and I've done over a hundred.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

simi-steading said:


> Oh yeah. .. I forgot, we got that huge chance of a tail getting stuck in a cart wheel still...
> 
> I do get the damage... had a friend that kept his Saint Bernard in the house... broke everything.. Never seen one of those docked.. .Seen lots of little dogs done though...... .but many dogs are done for looks... thank dog shows and breeders for a lot of them.
> 
> Now days there isn't as much need... Unless you want to fight your pit.. a tail less dog is better to have in the fight..


A little judgmental, are we? You can catch more flies with honey......




Pops2 said:


> That's all about training not natural abilities. I can take any pound puppy & walk him up to a caged bobcat. Just because he gets excited doesn't make him a $30,000 cat hound. Breeds & types exist for a reason, some jobs can't be trained. You're arguing from a position of ignorance on this one.


Breeding is vital for many working dogs. We have two service dogs. One is a purebred Golden and the other a Golden/Lab mix. Both were bred from the agency's stock. Service dog agencies using pound dogs or litters from regular breeders have a ton of drop outs. The agency we used has had one or two in the last ten or 15 years. While one cannot minimize the importance of training, without the proper breeding the training just isn't going to get the job done in some types of specialized working dogs.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

Wolf Flower said:


> Spay/neuter also has health benefits, so that kind of balances out the negatives. Despite that, a lot of people DO get emotional about spay/neuter. But spay/neuter saves lives through preventing unwanted litters, lessening the urge to roam, fight, etc. And while working in the veterinary field, I saw so many older intact bitches with life-threatening pyometra, that I cannot imagine why anyone would leave a non-breeding ***** intact.


I'm not saying I think I'd want an intact male but the research I've done since DD's dog tore his cruciate ligament suggests that neutering contributes mightily to this type of injury, especially if done early. Many people concerned about ACLs suggest leaving a male intact.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Docking tails on two day old Yorkies would be a normal procedure. Probably the vet felt that, as you brought them in, you knew what to expect. What is weird is the statement that they had their ears cropped, because they don't crop Yorkie ears and they don't crop dog ears as tiny babies, they do it under anesthesia on 12 week or older pups. Not that it couldn't happen, but very weird to do that. They also do dew claws on two day old pups. 

I raised Silkys to show, I had my vet crop tails and remove dew claws at 2 days old. The pups would give a yelp and go back to nursing (I brought their mother too). It was never a big deal and they didn't show any ill effect from it. 

I don't know about the experience you had, seems very unusual to me (regarding the ears). As far as doing tails and dew claws in the exam room, sure, that is normal for me. However my vet wanted me to tell him exactly where each tail should be done so they turned out right when they grew up. I don't see the big deal about it actually. 

There's a lot of more serious things going on in this world to worry about and to deal with than docking tails. What about child abuse? hunger? helping with flood damage? Dealing with seriously abused or neglected animals?


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## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

^Well, that is a little judgmental. 

I have had both dogs with tails and dogs without. If I have an aussie and am really working him, he would probably be docked. There are lots of ways dogs on farms can get their tail banged up. No tail, no problem. Outside working dogs also tend to get into stuff and eat it that they shouldn't - like manure. Cleaning up a long-haired dog with the runs is a mess. I'd rather have less to clean up.


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## JPiantedosi (Apr 23, 2012)

Some of ya'll make me laugh.... Growing up around working dogs (hunting and farm dogs both) I have seen several tail injuries. 

I own and field trial German Shorthair Pointers and English Pointers. All of my GSPs are docked to roughly 40% and the EP are obviously left full length. I have yet to have a GSP that has ripped its tail open on a fence or working thick cover. I can pretty much figure that by the end of hunting and trial season I will have at least one long tailed dog that is more or less has a permanently bloody tail. It is a mess in the kennel and it is a mess in the dog box. If I could get away with it Id have my EPs docked too. ( I would never say that to another EP fancier :hysterical

When I was a kid we had a neighbor who had border collies for chasing his pigs around. it was not uncommon for one of those dogs to get a tail slammed in a door in the furrowing barn or get some other version of tail injury.

I have seen labs with "happy tail(?)" and they wag them so much and beat the ends of them up to the point where they wont stop bleeding....

I guess what Im saying is If I had dogs that were porch/yard ornaments or spent the roughest years of their life on my couch, I probly wouldnt alter them, But I wont own a dog that doesnt earn its keep, and if it meands docking their tail (at 3days old) or removing dew claws, to save them from a worse injury later than thats what Im going to do.

Jim


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## arnie (Apr 26, 2012)

most of my pups are born with a stubby tail and some with, I don't dock em .{they are Mt. Curs} but as far a performance I can see no difference but when people pick out a pup they want the stubby ones . then there is the old wives tail that a tailless hound can't cross a log :] .iv noticed the dogs tails are used to help balance .


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Wolf Flower said:


> Actually, I don't think the exceptions are altogether rare or drastic, but it all depends on what you want from the dog. If you are looking for the next multi-BIS winner, $30K bobcat dog, or national SchH champion, it's not just a matter of eeny-meeny-miney-moe--you really have to pick the *right* one.


We may just have to agree to disagree.
Once I've picked a good breeder, and they have arranged a breeding I like, I can't imagine said breeder pulling an 8 week old pup out of the litter and saying;
"THIS ONE will totally rock the Schutzhund world. The rest of them I'll have to bring down to the old folks home and see if I can't give them away there."
"THIS ONE will make the best cat-hound you've ever seen. These others you'll be lucky if they tree a squirrel."
"THIS ONE will take BIB at Westminster in 3 years. The rest look kinda like mutts, don't they?"

Perhaps you're thinking that I am saying a puppy is a puppy is a puppy? Because I'm not and never was. I'm saying that in a good breeding by a knowledgeable breeder, there should not be a huge, massive gap in potential between littermates. The exception there would be the breeder doing an outcross to bring in new traits, and if you know what the mating is, then you known that the breeder is crossing 2 dissimilar lines and be ready for a pup that resembles both or either.
Because pups don't do all their growing, developing, changing from birth to 8 weeks, and if your GSD breeder is crossing a Sch champ with a show line, then you'll run a chance of the kind of toss-up you're worried about - but picking the pup at 8 weeks does _not_ totally eliminate that risk. The live-wire in the safety of the company of his mother and litter may get pretty meek once that's gone. It happens.

If you want a Sch dog, and you pick a breeder of Sch dogs, and a mating of Sch dogs, who's own parents and grands were Sch dogs - well, I'd be pretty comfortable picking a day old pup.

If you MUST have a $30,000 cat hound ( multi-BIS winner, national SchH champion) - well you'd best be prepared to spend $30,000 on an adult, or about as much as that going through pups. You're not picking that exceptional individual any more at 8 weeks then you are at one day. You're probably not picking it looking at a line up of 6 month old pups even. There are too many factors that go in.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Otter said:


> I'm saying that in a good breeding by a knowledgeable breeder, there should not be a huge, massive gap in potential between littermates.


I never said the gap was "huge" or "massive", but there is a difference between pups in a litter. It may be a small or subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless.

Even a small difference in conformation, temperament, or working ability can make a big difference when it comes to a competitive edge. Ask anyone who works or trials their dogs. True, you cannot always tell at 8 weeks which dogs are going to be the stars and which are going to be the pet dogs, but to say you can close your eyes and pick ANY pup out of a well-bred litter and expect it to be everything you want and expect, well... that would be lucky.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Otter said:


> We may just have to agree to disagree.
> Once I've picked a good breeder, and they have arranged a breeding I like, I can't imagine said breeder pulling an 8 week old pup out of the litter and saying;
> "THIS ONE will totally rock the Schutzhund world. The rest of them I'll have to bring down to the old folks home and see if I can't give them away there."
> "THIS ONE will make the best cat-hound you've ever seen. These others you'll be lucky if they tree a squirrel."
> ...


Actually with enough experience a breeder can definitely pick out the best show prospect even before eight weeks. Although less definite good breeders can ID the best prospects for Sch or hunting that young as well. Likewise your uncle or whoever didn't go into the pound and ask them for whatever random mutt they wanted to get rid of. He had a criteria he looked for that improved his chances of success. The funny thing is you've essentially argued this point for us, likewise no one here has really said all pound puppies are utterly worthless as working dogs. Depending on the person, we're just saying some jobs the chances of success are so low as to be a waste of time or others have said they have never personally witnessed a pound puppy do well at certain jobs.


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## airotciv (Mar 6, 2005)

As my Vet says there is no reason to go here anymore (docking or cropping), most dogs are pets and not show dogs or working dogs. There may have been reasons in the past to go here, but in the real world of today, Why pay the money to go here, if they are just a pet? Now he did say, people dock and crop because of what the breed should look like, in the owners mind, influenced by dog shows and books.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Well, Wolf Flower, do you want to compete in Schutzhund with an un-docked Schnauzer pup or don't you? You can be pretty certain to be able to do that if you pick the breeder and breeding right. But if you absolutely MUST feel that you have The Most Competitive pup in the litter then you might just be stuck buying an entire litter before birth, leaving them un-docked, and then reselling the rest. But somehow I don't see a top of the line breeder letting you do that, so I guess it's back to square one and no Schnauzer at all, or a docked one.

It's not _my_ dog and I've said what I would do and why, but you have to live with the dog, so whichever of those two things is more important to you is the most important, it doesn't have to be the same as what's most important to me 



Pops2 said:


> Actually with enough experience a breeder can definitely pick out the best show prospect even before eight weeks. Although less definite good breeders can ID the best prospects for Sch or hunting that young as well.


Pops, I referenced the quote I was referring to, and I was answering him, not trying to pick a fight with you. He said rescues can't work, and named farmwork specifically, I said yes they can in general, and named a great farmdog specifically. You may want to make that mean a lot of other things. OK

But about this part I quoted above... I've heard this rumor before. More then once on this very forum even.
Could you name me this person? Or any one, because it seems there is more then one person who can _without fail_ choose the best pup out of any litter, _never _makes a mistake, _never _sells a 6 month old prospect that isn't turning out_, never_ raises a second-best - much less a dud, _never_ kicks themselves for selling a pup that turned out to be spectacular, because they _always_ know which pup that is.
And yet, somehow, I've never met anyone like that. 
You'd think that if a person could pick the best pup from every litter without fail, they'd be pretty famous. Their kennel wold be world renowned and they'd be able to make millions teaching people their special method for picking the exact right pup by 8 weeks or less, every time.

People have heard of Bill Tarrant. Gun dog editor of Field and Stream for over 20 years, Couldn't even count the number of dogs he raised and trialed and championed, the venues he judged, the breeders and competitors he mentored - and _he_ didn't claim to be able to, or even mention in all his wealth of writing even having met, a person could inevitably pick the best pup for whatever you were looking for, by 8 weeks or earlier.

I'm sure that folks so modest don't want to be outed, or maybe there's a secret society, but I'd _really_ like to meet one.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Otter said:


> Well, Wolf Flower, do you want to compete in Schutzhund with an un-docked Schnauzer pup or don't you? You can be pretty certain to be able to do that if you pick the breeder and breeding right. But if you absolutely MUST feel that you have The Most Competitive pup in the litter then you might just be stuck buying an entire litter before birth, leaving them un-docked, and then reselling the rest. But somehow I don't see a top of the line breeder letting you do that, so I guess it's back to square one and no Schnauzer at all, or a docked one.
> 
> It's not _my_ dog and I've said what I would do and why, but you have to live with the dog, so whichever of those two things is more important to you is the most important, it doesn't have to be the same as what's most important to me
> 
> ...


I can pick the best show prospect in the litter at 8 weeks. now that doesn't mean that it won't fall apart (show talk for not turning out competitive)
but still the best over all in that litter.
another may come out with a better head shape when grown (which some judges count highly enough to over look soundness) but still as a whole the better show prospect can be picked out at 8 weeks. before and after 8 weeks the pup is either too much at the toddling or teenage ugly stage to tell much.

you can tell some at birth. like how the head and neck come together how high the tail set will be, how wide the back skull is compared to the rest and hints of the stop and muzzle shape, chest width......


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

I've met houndsmen that have been dogging longer than I've been alive who would disagree, and I've been dogging for almost 35 years now.
And as I pointed out before, the guy you referenced didn't say that all pound puppies were worthless just that he had never SEEN one that could herd or guard stock. Both activities that are heavily dependent on instinct over training. Then there is also the aspect of one man's treasure is another man's cull.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

What is true for one person or one breed does not hold true in other breeds.


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