# Best Draft Breeds?



## monsterchic (Jan 25, 2013)

Hey,

I'm wondering which light draft or full draft breeds you all would recommend for work around a homestead. The horse I choose will be pulling trees/logs/stumps, plowing, and other general labor. I'm thinking Gypsy Vanner or Friesan, because they're not AS big as some of the other breeds and could be used for more than just farm work.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!!

Rachel


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Friesians in general have not been bred/used for draft work for quite some time. Most of them have been bred for dressage under saddle or for carriage driving and are leggier and lighter in the body than would be preferable for a working draft horse and tend to be somewhat 'hotter' as well.

Gypsy Vanners come in a wide range of sizes and types ... it is a relatively *new* breed that really hasn't had time to settle into a firm type yet and most of the ones in the U.S. have been bred for the 'exotic' market ... exhibition, show, etc., so again you're looking at a breed that has been produced mostly for show. They have also been bred for the extreme feathering and luxurious mane and tail, which can be a problem with on-farm working stock.

For smaller draft types, I'd look at Haflingers or Fjords, both of which would be in the 14 hand range. For something somewhat bigger, but still not huge, the draft type Belgians and Percherons should be available in the 16 hand range.

When looking at draft horses, be sure you're looking at horses from breeders that are breeding 'working draft' horses rather than 'hitch horses' as hitch horses, bred for the show teams and wagons, will tend to be taller, rangier and have more leg under them as well.

Depending on how much personal experience you have with working draft horses, one of the best sources may be an Amish community, if there is one in your area. I got my Haflinger mare from someone who had gotten her already trained from an Amish farmer and she has been everything I could ask for. No problems, no issues, trained to do everything I wanted her to do.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

SFM in KY said:


> When looking at draft horses, be sure you're looking at horses from breeders that are breeding 'working draft' horses rather than 'hitch horses' as hitch horses, bred for the show teams and wagons, will tend to be taller, rangier and have more leg under them as well.


This a LOT. There is also a temperament difference.
If you can find the "Old World" style Belgians, they are about 15 hands, but THICK and can pull nice and slow all day.

Hitch style Belgians - I knew a pair that stood 18.2 and 18.3 and could dance all day. They were bred for showy motion and were far more active horses. The hitch types are also more prone to weak hooves.


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## littlebitfarm (Mar 21, 2005)

Find a short fat Haflinger and it will do everything you want. The tall thin ones are too hot to be fun living with on a farm.

Kathie


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

You will pay a premium for those two breeds and I doubt that either could do the farm work.

I'd get a hafflinger in a heartbeat. Smart as whips, easy keepers, strong and sturdy - no question about it. You can get them pretty inexpensively around here as well - just a few hundred tops.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Draft/stock type crosses are a nice size for a small farm.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Get what the Amish around here call a "General Purpose" which is a cross of a Draft (Belgian or Percheron) and a standardbred. The other option is to get a full draft from a working farm. There are more Belgians bred for work than any other breed in the US. As another said the two breeds you mentioned are boutique breeds, stick with one bred for work, stay away from the coach/show bred types they are too tall and narrow.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Gypsy Vanner or Friesan are costly. I doubt you'll have much luck pulling stumps with a horse of any kind. Plowing will be hard for a single.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

You can get yourself a nice tractor and some equipment for the prices I've seen on Friesan or Gypsy Varners.
Why do you want a draft horse instead of a tractor? Is there a reason other than horses are more fun?


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## westend (Jul 11, 2012)

I have spent the last year or so on this question...I am aiming for Norwegian Fjords...heavier bone than most Haflingers I've seen (but I like them too). Their tempermant is fantastic, they work but are easy keepers. And they are appropriate for the terrain I've got out here (hilly, cold) --need to "work small" and often in the forest. I don't need and can't easily handle an animal 17+hands high nor do I have huge flat acreage that needs plowing. Haying, market garden work, log skidding, light hauling. The other plus is Fjords are great for driving and ride nice too.


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## littlebitfarm (Mar 21, 2005)

Wide Haflingers have great temperaments!

I used another one to slid logs off my hill and neither one of us had done it before.

Kathie


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## westend (Jul 11, 2012)

littlebit ...that's a great classic hafflinger draft! Big thick neck, wide chest.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Every year at camp, we get at least one haffie for the girls to ride. The guy who gets the horses for us doesn't buy great horseflesh but I have to say, I've been so impressed with these ponies!! Here are a few of them:

Lady Daintree:










Teddy:










Psalm (who came to camp to go on a diet - she got her grazing muzzle shortly after this picture and she was able to lose 150 lbs. that summer!)


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## littlebitfarm (Mar 21, 2005)

westend said:


> littlebit ...that's a great classic hafflinger draft! Big thick neck, wide chest.


Thanks! I would call her tall for classic. She is every bit of 15 hands and probably more. Back in the day she would have been a high dollar mare ($20,000+). I picked her up last year (14 yo, broke to ride and drive single and double, with papers) for half of what I sold unregistered weanling colts for, back in the day. Sad statement on the state of the horse market here.

She is a delight to have on the farm!

Kathie


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

littlebitfarm said:


> Back in the day she would have been a high dollar mare ($20,000+). I picked her up last year (14 yo, broke to ride and drive single and double, with papers) for half of what I sold unregistered weanling colts for, back in the day. Sad statement on the state of the horse market here.


Yep - Of the horses posted above, Alex (and his partner Teddy who was GORGEOUS) were bought for $300 a piece a few years ago. 4 year olds, broke to ride and drive with the best manners! Teddy was a little skiddish but so quickly learned that by the end of the summer, he was fetching things and teaching those young girls to jump - even when he had never jumped! LOVED those two! I was pleased when they were bought by a farm that we had connections to so that they didn't end up going back to auction.


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## monsterchic (Jan 25, 2013)

Molly Mckee said:


> You can get yourself a nice tractor and some equipment for the prices I've seen on Friesan or Gypsy Varners.
> Why do you want a draft horse instead of a tractor? Is there a reason other than horses are more fun?


I'm going to try to go off the grid and have a personal problem with pollution from tractors. They are also fun


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## littlebitfarm (Mar 21, 2005)

Here is the short wide Haflinger that I skidded logs with, she also gave her share of pony rides. And a picture of my pasture "back in the day"

Kathie


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

I have raised Belgians for 30+ years, and I just think they are the greatest. I have also judged a good many draft horse shows, and am not color blind to any good horse. I would also suggest a small breed such as the Fjords or haflingers, but shop around and find a good one. > Thanks Marc


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Visit Horse Progress Days


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## westend (Jul 11, 2012)

Kathie is that mare in the last pic on left pregnant or really just that wide? Great pictures. Psalm is gorgeous but oh yeah, tubby!

16hands is ok, ride that, just going with the short guys for work.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Doesn't really matter what breed. Get whatever makes you smile (after all, YOU'RE the one paying the feed bill and looking at the beast every day), but make sure you get something that is healthy and well-built with conformation appropriate to what you want to do. A friesian with good conformation is going to be spendy. Same thing with a vanner. You can get a cheap, low-tier specimen of either of those breeds but that's never a good idea. Don't get a crappy friesian just because you want "a friesian".

Scale your labor appropriate for whatever you end up getting. Kind of hard to find a plow sized for a single small equine but I do occasionally run across a 6" or 7" plow. They are usually pretty spendy, though, because of their uncommon-ness. Easier to find a 9" or a 10" which will work for a single draft in the 1500-2000lb range. Horses aren't for pulling stumps out. Not without a winch or some kind of lifting device. There are horse-powered winches but they are hard to find.

I have a couple Percheron mares that are in the 1600-1700lb range that have conformation suitable to either ride or drive. They are shorter than the "hitch" horses and lighter with longer pasterns than the brick house "old style" horses. These girls work all day at a good pace or take you to town at a smart trot. They are also nice to ride and make good trail horses with their size 5 feet. Mine take a saddle with full quarter horse bars - no special "draft" tree required. 

Draft crosses are quite viable. Draft crossed with another working breed makes a stout and sane partner. Percheron/quarter horse, percheron/arab, belgian/haffie, belgian/quarter horse, or even a morgan cross all make nice farming/riding horses. I would caution against the draft/TB crosses as a general rule. Not the best for farm work.

Pure bred haflinger or fjord or stout morgan or even QH would be fine - a little harder to find farm equipment in that size but not impossible.


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## littlebitfarm (Mar 21, 2005)

westend said:


> Kathie is that mare in the last pic on left pregnant or really just that wide? Great pictures. Psalm is gorgeous but oh yeah, tubby!
> 
> 16hands is ok, ride that, just going with the short guys for work.


The short mare with the bundled up little bitty kids? She was bred. The big mare by the van is open and just a big girl.

Kathie


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

westend said:


> Psalm is gorgeous but oh yeah, tubby!


She actually had a butt crack on top of her butt and jiggled when she walked. I had never seen a horse that fat before! At her home, she was only on pasture - no grain! So she came to the fat farm where she was ridden a few times a day (many beginner lessons so definitely not overworked) and put on a dry lot with limited hay and a ration balancer. She was such a doll though. LOL


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Oops!! I was just informed by my daughter who is on the horse that Alex is actually his partner Teddy. I'm going to have to fix that! LOL


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## Farmfresh (Jan 11, 2009)

I am another in the Haflinger camp. They work hard and eat relatively little. The log skidding is the heaviest job you have mentioned and that can be lightened with a bit more sawing before skidding. 

Really look at the work you want, before deciding on the right animal though. Even the average old Quarter Horse can pull a pretty heavy load if you have things rigged and balanced correctly. We pulled a whole orchard of old fruit tree stumps with one hard working Shetland pony. We simply took our time and used our heads doing it. Plus that little gal really understood what to do! She would rock and rock the stump loose before breaking it out. We even plowed our garden with a Hackney/Welsh cross and a single bottom walking plow back in the day, so don't under estimate a work pony either. The pic below is of me as a kid heading our 50 inch pony Dan while my dad is taking a break from plowing. 










Ponies can do an awful lot of work on very little feed. Most coal mines back in the day were worked by little ponies like the Shetland and the Welch. 

Something VERY VERY important to consider is the build and health of a prospective work horse. One crooked leg can cause a heap of trouble in a horse expected to pull their load on a farm. I would highly recommend a through vet check and even leg x-rays before spending your good money on a horse.


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## CIW (Oct 2, 2007)

Have you thought about the Suffolk Punch. They are "Bred for the furrow." Originating in the British Isles, these horses have only been bred to be the small farmers work horse.
They are a quiet, steady horse. Probably as a breed they have the best feet of any.
There is one other thing about these animals that many don't see. If you were to get a team of quality registered mares the foals a in great demand as there are less then 2000 registered mares in the U.S. right now. Very marketable. They can pay their own way and replace themselves.
Mares will be about 15.1 to 15.3hh and weigh between 15 and 1800 lbs.


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## Farmfresh (Jan 11, 2009)

At least in this part of the world finding a registered draft horse is very difficult. Most are purebred, but no one seems interested in the paper work. 

If I had to buy a draft in my area a Belgium would be the cheapest and easiest to find. We have a lot of Amish in the Midwest an that is their preferred breed. We also have Shires, Clydesdales, Percherons, the Vanners (which are WAY overpriced) and even lots of the Halflingers. I saw a Halfilinger mule on Craigslist just the other day for $2,500 for a jenny that was 6 years old and broke to ride, drive and work. I have never seen a Punchy in real life and I have been horsing around in these parts for almost 50 years. ??


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I've seen a few teams of Suffolks and I have to say that they wouldn't be my first choice of horse to throw a saddle over. They are bred for the furrow. Not the saddle.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

Suffolks are a great smaller draft breed (not as small as haflingers or fjords) but can be hard to find. If you are looking for a large pony, I would go for a haflinger or fjord before going to a gypsy vanner (about the same height but bred more for show than heavy pulling). Breed doesn't matter so much as build and training. I have seen some AWESOME mutt draft horses and ponies. 

If you want a larger horse, in the 15-17 hand range, then you have lots of options, the most common you will find will probably be belgians and percherons. Some percherons can be very leggy and not my first choice for a practical draft horse. But some of the best drafts I have worked with have been percherons, there is a lot of variation in any breed. Friesians are not bred for draft work. As someone else mentioned, today they are mostly bred for dressage and lighter carriage pulling. They will not hold up to the demands of draft animals on a working farm. 

If you don't have a ton of driving experience, I will tell you the same thing that I tell most people looking to buy their first horse. Find a draft horse that has been there, done that. Since the demands of a working draft horse are much higher than the demands of most riding horses, comformation should play a big role in your selection, and I agree with the suggestion to have a vet check done before you put any money down on a horse ($100 now could save you a lot more later). Look for a horse with a good solid build, big neck, wide chest, short back, straight legs, solid round feet are some of the many qualities you want to look for in an ideal draft horse. But personality and experience are just as important. If I were in your shoes (as I hopefully will be within the next year as we prepare to add a draft horse to the farm to do some logging on our property) I would be looking for a horse over 10 years old that has done all kinds of farm work and doesn't need any fine tuning. In other words, a horse that can teach YOU. These kinds of horses are hard to come by, but if you can find one you won't regret it.


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## arnie (Apr 26, 2012)

I' had 2 halflingers both were great .I now have a halflinger percnon cross that is just to fast for me .though he can move a bigger load easyer .I want another blocky halflinger


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## monsterchic (Jan 25, 2013)

This is great information, guys!!

Thanks so much


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## Barn Yarns (Oct 7, 2012)

My draft club has a great variety of horses.... from ponys and qh up to big Perchies and belgians. 

Perchies have a tendancy to be a little bit 'hotter' when compared to the belgians and clydes. Percherons were favored greatly for Fire Department use due to their extra 'getup and go' that came from the Arabian in their bloodlines. 

Belgians come in all sizes. the ones ive spent most time with are more on the 15-16 hand size. 

The Suffolk Punch is actually a 'kissing cousin' (if you will) to the Belgian. They are a line that was kept as a working horse and not a hitch horse.

There are 2 styles of halfies too. the more refined has become on the lines of a hitch horse. there have been several in our draft club but I always keep in mind that they are ponies and have a 'pony' mind set. 

Fjords fall in the same catagory as the halfies.... there are working ones and hitch ones. in my area, I see them very high priced, tho. Most people that I know that have them seem to do just as much riding of their fjords as they do driving. 

All that being said.... I have a Percheron who was bred to be a hitch horse but I use him here to pull logs and occationally a hay rake. as of late, been riding more than working. I also have a half Percheron/half andalusian who i just sent off to learn what its like to work rather than being a pita! 

friesans are not considered a draft horse. I cant say that the gypsy is either, but thats not saying that there isnt anyone out there that is using them for such. 

Ive always liked the Percheron/Morgan cross. We have had several in our club. they all seemed to range about 15 hands and were great workers. One guy had 4 and used them for logging, ice harvest, sleigh and wagon rides, as well as parades and county shows. 

For the comment about registered animals.... well.... I think the Draft folks have got it figgured out. Non registered animals can be shown in the same classes as the ones that are. They have records of who is mom and dad, but when it comes to a gelding... is there really a need to register? i can tell you that when you goto big shows like the World Percheron Congress or the World Clydesdale show, there are excellent unregistered geldings that deserve to be in the right along with those that are registered. You dont ride papers. 

Speaking of clydes... they are nice laid back horses too. Ive messed with several and have been pleased with their temperments. 

Something else you need to think of too is regular upkeep. There are farriers out there that refuse to trim drafts. they come up with wonderful excuses, but it comes down to the fact that the farrier has to work a little harder to do the actual trimming. My Percheron stands a heck of a lot better than some of the qh's ive had. 

Clydes, Gypsys, Shires, friesans and other feathered breeds have a higher risk of picking up scratches. Its manageable, but prevention is the best. once its there, there is no cure. If you live in an area that is very wet and muddy, I would stay away from the feathered breeds. Not saying that other horses cannot pick it up, but with the constant wet of the hair, its that much greater to pick it up. 

Something else to keep in mind is that the Drafters dont have the same feed requirements as the light horses. i had 2 full percherons here as well as a qh. they both at less than the qh did. on a nice warm -10 winter day, i usually only saw my qh butt sticking out of a hay bale, while the Perchies would be standing out enjoying the sun. 

There are easy keepers and hard keepers in every breed. take your time in making your choice. visit your local county fair to chat with the draft owners, find your local draft and/or driving club attend meetings to see what they do... some do plow days or harvest days. Contact someone for lessons on driving if you havent done much yourself. I find the draft people to be happy to have a new person to teach 

good luck!


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## zwarte (Apr 12, 2011)

I was going to chime in with Hafflinger, too. But I see that it has already been done. 

I just bought a driving Morgan horse and will use her for long drives on the gravel roads here in the Ozarks. 

Morgans are versatile and might suit your purposes.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8444838841/


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

You could buy an older Percheron or Belgian for under a grand. Maybe under $500. at a horse auction. 
You may benifit from a slower, but experienced horse to start out on. There are big draft auctions in March and October. If I knew what state you aare in I might be able to direct you.


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## monsterchic (Jan 25, 2013)

haypoint said:


> You could buy an older Percheron or Belgian for under a grand. Maybe under $500. at a horse auction.
> You may benifit from a slower, but experienced horse to start out on. There are big draft auctions in March and October. If I knew what state you aare in I might be able to direct you.


Just below you in Northern Wisconsin


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## Barn Yarns (Oct 7, 2012)

Where in WI? I know several of which you can contact. Neilsville sale is usually mid april. if you are near Superior, the North Star Draft Club is not far way in ne MN. I know of a good perch team for sale up in International Falls. 

Have you ever gone to the Ashland Sleigh Rally? That would be a great place to talk to others about their breeds. Blackberry, MN Rally/Event is the end of Feb.


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## monsterchic (Jan 25, 2013)

Yeah, those are all about 1-3 hours away from me. I'll check them out!


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

I am all about Fjords. Always wanted one, but couldnt afford one. Found one with some facial paresis issues from when she was a foal. She wont ever be a dressage horse but will suit us well as a pasture pal/broodmare/leadline pony.

This is what a our 2 1/2 year old Fjord did the very first time someone hopped on her back.
She just looked back at him like he was an idiot, then started nibbling his foot.












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## Barn Yarns (Oct 7, 2012)

I realized that I misspoke in my post above. I commented that the Suffolk was of similar breeding to the belgian. my head cold has gotten the best of me.... 

the Barbarant is what some might call an old school belgian. Not the suffolk. suffolk is its own breed. the Barbarants are a very drafty horse. Ive only seen them in pictures as they are rare here in the states, but they seem to be about the widest of drafters out there. 

I might attend the Blackberry event. I dont think i have anything planned. Let me know if you will attend. I can introduce you to some neat drafters. In the past there have been some draft mules in attendance as well.


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## littlebitfarm (Mar 21, 2005)

I actually saw a pair of the Barbarants with a foal at Horse Progress Days in Arcola, IL a couple years ago. Very impressive looking!!!

kathie


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Brabants. 

I thought that was what you intended - to say that the Belgians and the Brabants are cousins - and I was going to correct you on it, but actually you were correct in some regards, so I let it stand.

The Suffolk is from a far eastern portion of England. The Brabant is from the Netherlands. The one can see the other, but they are separated by a stretch of sea water. It is likely that some few animals were exchanged between these two countries. Brabants and Suffolks do share genetic parentage, as they also do with the Clydes, Shires, Haflingers and some of the cobs.

However, the real link between today's Suffolks and today's Belgians occurred more recently. After the Suffolk came to the US the available gene pool dwindled even further. In the '80s, the Suffolk registery allowed some crossbreeding to the American Belgians for a short while to help keep the Suffolk from disappearing entirely. So today's American Suffolk DOES have some American Belgian in there.

The American Belgian was bred taller and leggier from its original foundation animals - the Brabants imported from the Netherlands (Belgium). 

Here in the US we are much more spread-out than they are in Europe. Many more miles to travel. So the original imported plow horse breeds like the Brabants were modified - bred taller, leggier, lighter to travel more miles. Percherons were already of two types when they arrive in America - the stout plowing type and the lighter freight hauling type. After arriving in America, the plowing type started to dwindle and the lighter type took off like wildfire. Clydesdales and Shires were already lighter in body type than the Suffolk and Brabant and saw less change.

Technology improved our horse-drawn agricultural equipment and also improved harness design. We began to apply horse power more efficiently, which allowed an animal to be more multi-purpose in body type and still perform adequately for either road travel or tillage. 

As an extension of this optimization, American farmers eventually settled on a "farm chunk" as being the most efficient multi-purpose horse. Farm chunks were a mixture of draft and saddle horse in the 1400/1500-lb range. They were used in cities and on farms and far outnumbered the purebred draft horses. Most of the old harness you find in barns will not fit a purebred draft horse, which usually falls in the 1700-2000lb range. He was too big to be most efficient on a farm.

There's your bit of draft horse history for the day.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Littlebitfarm, that was probably Tommy Flowers. He is one of the very few people in the US that is breeding and working Brabants.


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## chewie (Jun 9, 2008)

I can't add more than the best advice you've already gotten, but wow, loving the photos!! and the info! fun thread!


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## littlebitfarm (Mar 21, 2005)

jennigrey said:


> Littlebitfarm, that was probably Tommy Flowers. He is one of the very few people in the US that is breeding and working Brabants.


It was! It was the last time that he had the team out before the stallion died. They tracked down my friend because she had posted some great pictures of him and they wanted any other shots she had.

Here they are. 2007 I think.

Kathie


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## NCGarden (Jan 21, 2013)

I have Fjords (three currently) - and think they make perfect small farm horses. I like the draftier builds. Got them for riding (tired of falling off big horses), and ended up doing draft work with them. Mine range from 13 hands to just shy of 15, and are extremely easy keepers. I remain amazed at how little they need to eat. Affectionate, friendly, curious, hard hard workers, strong. Good in singles, good in pairs, good on the trail, good in the field. 8 years ago they were pricey, and if you are looking for a sportier dressage build, they are still expensive. But it's not unusual to find them in the $2,500 range. I also like that in general, they live looong productive lives.

Joe and Della get down to business









Della learns how to drive









It's not all hard work


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

monsterchic said:


> Hey,
> 
> I'm wondering which light draft or full draft breeds you all would recommend for work around a homestead. The horse I choose will be pulling trees/logs/stumps, plowing, and other general labor. I'm thinking Gypsy Vanner or Friesan, because they're not AS big as some of the other breeds and could be used for more than just farm work.
> 
> ...


Would be easier to more precisely answer if we knew how much acreage you were farming .

As far as breeds ... you have general characteristics for a breed but really you have to look at the individual. Big hitch breeding is eliminating flat bone and making rangey horses hard to keep. Also tends to disregard temperment or at least prefers other qualities ahead of temperment. A black or marbled hoof generally is tougher than white. When I had horses I was a Belgian man .... more often they have white hooves. Suffock and Percheron are black.

Any stocky horse in the 1400 lb range can do a lot of work. Light teams will out perform large teams at many chores such as raking or cutting hay. Big teams can get more done in a day plowing .... there are exceptions though. Sometimes the lightweights pull as much as the heavyweights at a pulling contest. 

A little team of pony mules can pull a full size 12 inch walking plow ..... but only for a short distance until they need to get their wind .... then go a short distance again.

Old style Morgans are hard to find and will fetch some $. But you can find modern Morgans stockier and with more bone.

Belgian x Morgan makes a nice size usually bay team.... I always wanted to make a team .... was gonna find a good drafty mare and bread twice to the same stud.

Suffocks I have been around tend to have more snap .... like a Percheron

I have logged with teams but stump pulling used very special equipment and back in the early days of land clearing was probably done by oxen.

Amish are always the good, the bad, and the ugly. Some are the very best of horsemen..... and some only have 21 inch collars because a 14 inch collar will fit on any horse !!!! (I am not joking)

You can just go get a tractor and use it. Horses standing around all winter can not just be hitched up and expected to work all day because the ground is ready and needs worked. There is a lot of skill involved in keeping a team sound so that you can depend on them everyday.

Years ago I injured my back .... eventually decided to sell the horses. The man who bought them said I was always welcome to drop by and work them or even borrow them.... so that worked out. Nothing like working the land with a good team ....



A single horse needs to be a good horse. With a team ... put the good horse in the lead.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

jennigrey said:


> Brabants.
> 
> I thought that was what you intended - to say that the Belgians and the Brabants are cousins - and I was going to correct you on it, but actually you were correct in some regards, so I let it stand.
> 
> ...


The Suffolk program required a Belgian mare having Suffolk character.... like a star and black feet and chunk build. It required numerous generations of back-crossing before a colt or filly could be registered.

I think ?????? Same method was used with Shires and selected Percheron mares.

Anyone ever hear of American Cream Draft Horses ?


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## Farmfresh (Jan 11, 2009)

I have heard of them but never actually seen a team.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

There are a series of videos on youtube by Eric and Anne Nordell. They have been horse farming vegetables since the early '80's . They are very innovative in developing cropping techniques and in adapting the horse equipment to those techniques. He is farming here with a chunk Belgian and a Belgian/Standard Bred Cross. When I first knew of him he had a team of that cross.

I will continue to look for a video he made of equipment he adapted to single horse farming. Maybe it is not on youtube. I will post if I find it.

If you have dial-up and can not see this you should visit a friend who will let you borrow his computer..... because this is good stuff here. These two are amazing .... and well known in natural farming circles. They have made many contributions to the Small Farmers Journal

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3dEnbKNaUY[/ame]


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

My wife got back into horses on a leased Halflinger x Belgian. Has the Palomino look, just over 15 hands, good well mannered rider but with a relatively rough trot and a wide back that might wear on you if you spent a lot of time in the saddle. Very strong, well muscled horse, wonderful disposition. For me a horse has to be very hugable. I like to be around them and care for them, and will ride with my wife to make her happy, but riding isn't really my thing. If this one experience was a valid indicator, the Half/Bel or Belinger or whatever you want to call it is a pleasing mix. No matter where my wife took that horse, he was the hit of the party. 

Uniformly, the folks I know who have used working horses prefer Belgians. I have no first hand knowledge, but I think this cross would make for a good balance of a rider and worker.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> Anyone ever hear of American Cream Draft Horses ?


 

I have, and I have seen a good many in my day, use to be a couple old timers had them around these parts when I was younger. But they passed on and the horses were all sold. I pulled my team of Belgian mares against a team many years ago, we ran out of weights for the sled, so I just called the pull and settled for second place. An old timer came up to me after and said that my team could have beat them easy, but I was happy. That was pretty much a color breed and had several blood lines in it. > Thanks Marc


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## Barn Yarns (Oct 7, 2012)

Creams are around, but i think they are still pretty rare yet.

ya know... I just happen to think, (yeah.... my head is clearing a bit) I forgot to mention something that i would always mention....

since we have this wonderful thing called technology, one should look up the registrys. very often they will list members right on their website and you can see if there is anyone in your area (that you are willing to travel) so you can visit. granted not everyone is a member of their breed club, but its a start.

Also, look up the yahoo group DraftnDrive. We have a LOT of WI members in your neck of the woods. Several down in central eastern MN as well. Im drawing a huge brain fart, but there is a gal down in Cashton/Viroqua area that has Perchies. Her dad is a World Champion teamster. I think once in a while tho, they do end up with other drafts, too. but she knows A LOT of people in all the breeds. 

Have you checked out the Rural Heritage site yet? lots of great info there too. If you have satalite tv, you can watch a short half hour show that is (well... used to be) on during the weekends. they change it up as to what they are showing each week. can be farming one week, to showing the next, then ice harvest or maple syrup racing. all the episodes are available for purchase. I dont think you can watch them online... but I could be wrong there.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

It would be helpful if the original poster could let us know if they have any kind of experiences with horses. Back in 1980 I could ride a horse but never owned one ... I was attending college at PSU and the Pennsylvania Draft Horse Association was having a seminar there. The second day was hands-on out in fields a ways from the campus. That hooked me and there was a young couple who were local and they had a young team there. They invited me to their place.... I stopped by on a Saturday .... they were hitched to the spreader with a fore cart. I grabbed a pitch fork and began pitching as we visited. Went back the next Saturday to help pitch ... and the man handed me the lines. The man who taught him to drive was the man who was the farrier for PSU way back when the college still used horses on the research farm. That man was still alive at the time. Eventually I bought a long yearling in the Fall and had him in this man's barn... then after he was green broke I moved away and within a few years I had progressed to the point that a young couple came to me wanting help to break their Belgian.

If you want to work horses and you don't have a clue better find a friend to get you started.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Here are a few photos from Horse Progress Days.


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## littlebitfarm (Mar 21, 2005)

Fun hitch from Horse Progress Days!

Kathie


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## zwarte (Apr 12, 2011)

http://www.facebook.com/EquineRescueNetwork/posts/464408100281768


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> I think ?????? Same method was used with Shires and selected Percheron mares.


Shires and Clydes are basically two buckets of water out of the same trough, but I had never heard of Percherons being bred in. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I never heard of it.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

jennigrey said:


> Shires and Clydes are basically two buckets of water out of the same trough, but I had never heard of Percherons being bred in. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I never heard of it.


You are probably right .... someone confused probably misinformed me???????????
Percheron might have been selected due to color though ..... But there is a big hitch man in central Pa. who has black Clydes.

.... but compared to Clydes ... wouldn't Shires be .... how do I say this .... have a more drafty build .... rangey but more drafty.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

littlebitfarm i never seen Roman style done with 6 up ..... who is the cowboy?


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## littlebitfarm (Mar 21, 2005)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> littlebitfarm i never seen Roman style done with 6 up ..... who is the cowboy?


No idea. But he should be doing blue jean commercials! :sing: I assume he works for the folks with the big trailer in the background.

Kathie


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

Wonder how many times the show-off has bitten the dust ?:hysterical:


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

Anyone ever seen a 6 up driven with a jerk line ?


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

That's Priefert's "Texas Thunder" hitch. They do a lot of cantering about, something you don't see in draft horse shows. And the one guy doing the Roman riding. They are a traveling exhibition hitch like the Budweiser Clydesdales. I think they might have disbanded, though. There was talk of it a couple years back but I don't remember what came of it.

I've seen an eight and a twelve of mules driven with a jerk line.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

When I looked at the first picture it looked like he was holding them back so that there was little distance between the pairs so that if the lead and swing team decided to slow down suddenly he would not be holding handfuls of loose lines. But in the side view looks like normal spacing for a 6 up. I'd guess he has them tied across at the bridles... so the individual pairs could not spread if the lead and swing team would unexpectedly slow down... he would have more control if cross tied. Of course those horses should be trained to stay up and keep that even tension on the lines.... but if that lead team would see something and decide on their own to slow down I can't see how he can gather in lines and also keep his balance.

But then what do I know ... I never drove six and it's all I can do to balance myself while standing on the evener !!! ound:

Obviously he has worked those horses together for a long time before trying that.

I wouldn't be wearing gloves.


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## littlebitfarm (Mar 21, 2005)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> When I looked at the first picture it looked like he was holding them back so that there was little distance between the pairs so that if the lead and swing team decided to slow down suddenly he would not be holding handfuls of loose lines. But in the side view looks like normal spacing for a 6 up. I'd guess he has them tied across at the bridles... so the individual pairs could not spread if the lead and swing team would unexpectedly slow down... he would have more control if cross tied..


You mean like this?

Kathie


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

I've got a Belgian/halflinger cross. He is about 15 2 and weighs about 1400. Sorta short and stocky with big draft feet. Horse seems perfect size for me and doesn't eat too much. Problem is he hates the bit and after a while starts fighting it. I'm trying to break him in by slowly increasing the time he wears the bit and putting it on him while he's in the stall....seems to be getting better in increments.


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## Farmfresh (Jan 11, 2009)

Darntootin said:


> I've got a Belgian/halflinger cross. He is about 15 2 and weighs about 1400. Sorta short and stocky with big draft feet. Horse seems perfect size for me and doesn't eat too much. Problem is he hates the bit and after a while starts fighting it. I'm trying to break him in by slowly increasing the time he wears the bit and putting it on him while he's in the stall....seems to be getting better in increments.


Two things to double check. First have the horse's teeth checked. A horse with a nervy wolf tooth will have nothing but trouble with a bit. Second be certain that the bit you are using fits properly. If you are certain that the bit is mild enough (like a simple ring snaffle) and also fits well without pinching and such, then I have an old trick for you to try. 

Take a slender leather lace, a boot lace perhaps, and wrap the entire mouth of the bit smoothly with that. Another thing to try is a long strip of cotton sheeting and some black licorice sticks. You lay the licorice on the bit and secure it by wrapping with the cotton strips. 

Both of these tricky techniques encourage a horse to suck on the bit, which promotes more moisture in their mouth and usually results in a horse that actually enjoys the bit even long after the treat is removed. The horses that I have trained using this method would actually follow you around and gape open their mouth to get the bit inserted. One would even go put the bit in her mouth if you left the bridle hanging were she could get to it.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

Gee thanks Kathie for that photo .... I will study it and get back with remarks. That ought to give that ole cowboy an adrenalin rush !

I am thinking of a 6 up hitch compared to a 6 up jerk line driven compared to this (whatever you call it) circus act!

Horses being in harness are tied together by the neck yoke and evener and the individuals of each pair are balancing with another on that evener. Also wheelers are positioned and spaced by the tongue and swing team by the swing pole. If a horse steps sideways he feels the pressure of the tug against his leg.

.......... all of the above works together to create various forces on the horse and the experienced horse learns to find the path of least resistance ... which will be the most comfortable position for him... and he will be where you want him when you have correctly made all of your adjustments as you harness and hitch. 

.... so even with out lines the hitched horses should have a sense of being in the right place (when they are indeed in the right place)

As for the lead team ..... not so much so because no pole between them.

Now think about driving a team .... you harness in the barn but you hitch outside somewhere so you drive them as they are without an evener or neck yoke.

Now think about driving three teams in this manner while standing on the backs of the rear team .... that I imagine to be nearly impossible.

These horses are held in position by doing their part to maintain that constant pressure .... by staying up on the bit ... because if they don't they won't know where they are since they really are not hitched.

____________

I mostly drove a team or 3 abreast. The friends who bought my horses bought another team and we did have a great working 4 horse version of Tarkington hitch pulling 2 way sulky plow. (I need to find my Draft Horse Primer because I know I misspelled the name of that hitch !!!!!


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

Who was the owner and where was the location of Milkwoods Farm Belgians (Brabants)?


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

Pictures of me raking hay and plowing. The man standing beside the team in the picture where the horses are chewing on the neck yoke is the man I sold the team to. The picture of the little girl is my niece ..... she is 31 now. Pics taken 1988


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Darntootin said:


> I've got a Belgian/halflinger cross. He is about 15 2 and weighs about 1400. Sorta short and stocky with big draft feet. Horse seems perfect size for me and doesn't eat too much. Problem is he hates the bit and after a while starts fighting it. I'm trying to break him in by slowly increasing the time he wears the bit and putting it on him while he's in the stall....seems to be getting better in increments.


How old is he and what size and type of bit are you using?


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> How old is he and what size and type of bit are you using?


He is 8. I just got him about 2-3 months ago. Previous owner had him in a tie stall ( could not turn around or lay down ). Said he hadn't worked him in 6 months due to being busy with other horses ( he had a full belgian and a percheron that he preferred to work with because they were a size match ). Before that he belonged to the Amish. Thats all I know.

I was using a 5 inch d ring snaffle, he absolutely freaked out after driving him for 5 minutes ( kicking, bucking, putting his tongue over it then pulling his head down ). I took it off him when I saw how much discomfort it gave him. I ordered a 5.75 inch rubber mullen mouth bit ( happy mouth brand ) and have been using that with somewhat better results. He still hates the bit, but I can drive him longer with this one and no dramatics like the first time.

I got him so he could help me around the farm with skidding logs and had hoped to one day hook him up to a cart...right now its looking like thats a long way off:grump:


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Darntootin said:


> He is 8. I just got him about 2-3 months ago. Previous owner had him in a tie stall ( could not turn around or lay down ). Said he hadn't worked him in 6 months due to being busy with other horses ( he had a full belgian and a percheron that he preferred to work with because they were a size match ). Before that he belonged to the Amish. Thats all I know.
> 
> I was using a 5 inch d ring snaffle, he absolutely freaked out after driving him for 5 minutes ( kicking, bucking, putting his tongue over it then pulling his head down ). I took it off him when I saw how much discomfort it gave him. I ordered a 5.75 inch rubber mullen mouth bit ( happy mouth brand ) and have been using that with somewhat better results. He still hates the bit, but I can drive him longer with this one and no dramatics like the first time.
> 
> I got him so he could help me around the farm with skidding logs and had hoped to one day hook him up to a cart...right now its looking like thats a long way off:grump:


Like a prior poster indicated it could be a tooth/teeth problem- have you had him floated lately?

Also, many horses have a low palate and the joint in a regular snaffle will jab them painfully since he worked better in a mullen mouth that could be at least part of the problem. A low palate makes a small mouth so the rubber on the mullen mouth may have made the bit too big for his mouth to be comfortable. I really like french link snaffles as there isn't a joint to jab the roof of the mouth and they come in varying diameters.

I hope it's a relatively easy problem to fix.


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## Farmfresh (Jan 11, 2009)

As a person posted before his problem my be Amish related. They are definitely the best and the worst horseman out there ... depending on the horse trainer involved. I have seen horses tied with their head to one side until their mouth was bleeding, because they were a "bit stiff in one direction".:grumble: 

Have the poor boys mouth vetted. It is sounding more and more like a possible pain issue.

Also remember that it really doesn't matter what is used to guide a horse as long as it works. If he needs to work in a side pull or even his halter that is fine and dandy as long as he is able to do what you need him to do.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

Yes, check that the bridle and bit fits properly and the bit isn't coming into contact with his teeth. I would stick to either a double jointed (french link) snaffle or an unjointed rubber snaffle. Like Irish Pixie said sometimes single jointed snaffles can cause discomfort and pain in some horses. 

If the bit isn't coming into contact with his teeth, have them checked by the vet. (Even if it is, it's still a good idea to have his teeth checked if you haven't already)

It might be worth it to try him in a sidepull or a mild hackamore, too. 

I had a pony when I was younger whose previous owners cranked on his mouth until he was all but completely unresponsive to even the harshest bit. I tried flash nosebands, curb bits, every type of mouthpiece you can imagine, and he would just throw his head up and pull against the slightest pressure. Nothing wrong with his teeth. I put him in a mild, padded hackamore with small shanks and once he got used to it (it only took a few rides) he was like a different horse.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

Darntootin .... just curious did the seller indicate the horse had this problem ?

Troutriver never heard of working a drafter with a hackamore .... but I was wondering about that possibility as I was thinking about this problem this morning. Interesting !


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## Farmfresh (Jan 11, 2009)

We had a mare that had been a run away in her past home. It was again a bitting problem. They had put her in a harsher and harsher bit trying to stop her and as the pain increased she would just run blindly trying to escape it. A few years in a side pull hackamore and her trust in us was restored. We were able to have her back working in a standard bit once again. I wouldn't have even bothered with a regular bit but as a show horse they required certain gear.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

My neighbor has a hard luck case that she brought home. The thing has terrible scar tissue in the corners of the her mouth. If you bit her up, she starts getting anxious and combative immediately. With a hackamore, she drops her head and neck reins. 

If my neighbor worked with her, I'm sure the horse could eventually take a bit again. But she's probably just a pasture decoration at this point.

When I'm working to bit up a new horse, I will try four different mouthpieces in this order: a straight bar bit (snaffle or curb), a mullen mouth bit (snaffle or curb), a broken mouth snaffle, a three piece (French link) snaffle. At the risk of offending anyone, if a horse doesn't accept one of these four bits and his mouth has been checked and ok'd by a vet, the hands might be the problem and not the bit. I don't approve of nosebands either. eep:


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> Troutriver never heard of working a drafter with a hackamore .... but I was wondering about that possibility as I was thinking about this problem this morning. Interesting !


Disclaimer: I have never actually tried driving a horse in a hackamore (I am not the most experienced driver) but don't see why it couldn't be done...


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## Farmfresh (Jan 11, 2009)

jennigrey said:


> At the risk of offending anyone, if a horse doesn't accept one of these four bits and his mouth has been checked and ok'd by a vet, the hands might be the problem and not the bit. I don't approve of nosebands either. eep:


Back in the day there was a family in our riding club that had a horse that would constantly rear up. People had lots of things for them to try, but nothing seemed to work, so they sold the horse and bought another. Within a month the new horse had the exact same problem, even though it had never had it before. I watched that family buy and ruin a dozen good horses, but they would never admit it was their own crappy handling and rough hands that was the cause of the troubles. Very aggravating.


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## Farmfresh (Jan 11, 2009)

TroutRiver said:


> Disclaimer: I have never actually tried driving a horse in a hackamore (I am not the most experienced driver) but don't see why it couldn't be done...


We had a pony that we drove in her halter around the house. It can work well, depending of course on the horse in question. Those long driving lines give a person LOTS and LOTS of leverage that short reins just don't. When in doubt start in an enclosed space the first few drives.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

I always rode my draft horses a little .... If in an emergency or for other practical reasons that would require you to have a horse to ride it is nice to know you could depend on the drafter.

I could take two lead ropes and attach to the ring on each side of the halter and ride. The problem is if the horse spooks you have little control.

..... sometimes you have little control even when using one of those bits homemade from a chain saw chain eep:


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## Farmfresh (Jan 11, 2009)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> I always rode my draft horses a little .... If in an emergency or for other practical reasons that would require you to have a horse to ride it is nice to know you could depend on the drafter.
> 
> I could take two lead ropes and attach to the ring on each side of the halter and ride. The problem is if the horse spooks you have little control.
> 
> ..... sometimes you have little control even when using one of those bits homemade from a chain saw chain eep:


Ain't that the truth!


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

Just jump on .... you have Gip, Gee, Haw, Whoa ............. who needs a bridle


My experience breaking to ride was exactly same as Lasergrl's . 
My first gelding was Fritz the horse with the wider blaze. He was broke to harness when he was 2. A year later I put a bridle on him and jumped on his back. He reached around and tried to nip each of my heels ... I said "cut that out" .... and voila .... he was broke to ride.


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## CIW (Oct 2, 2007)

There is a nice, experienced team of Punch mares for sale. in SE Michigan. Its a 4 for 2 deal. Probably recover your purchase price when the foals are weaned in the fall.
They are listed on ruralheritage.com


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

I helped some people break a 2 year old. They did not have anything to pull nor was the harness in too good of shape along with being too little. They had been riding this gelding so knowing that I agreed to help them if they agreed to buy some new driving lines. 

There is no better way to break a colt to harness than to hitch it with a mature well broke one. 

The worst case is when someone who has no driving experience buys one young horse that is not broke ..... which was the situation here. I have a good story to tell about how this all went down..... 

stay tuned


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

OK all you teamsters .... time for some fun !!!

Look at the second picture ... the one with the view from the rear of the gelding showing the tractor tire.

There is something here that is not right.... not correct but we made it work....

Hint.........You will laugh if you are able to figure it out !!!!! :happy2:

Also look on the first picture .... look close


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

jennigrey said:


> My neighbor has a hard luck case that she brought home. The thing has terrible scar tissue in the corners of the her mouth. If you bit her up, she starts getting anxious and combative immediately. With a hackamore, she drops her head and neck reins.
> 
> If my neighbor worked with her, I'm sure the horse could eventually take a bit again. But she's probably just a pasture decoration at this point.
> 
> When I'm working to bit up a new horse, I will try four different mouthpieces in this order: a straight bar bit (snaffle or curb), a mullen mouth bit (snaffle or curb), a broken mouth snaffle, a three piece (French link) snaffle. At the risk of offending anyone, if a horse doesn't accept one of these four bits and his mouth has been checked and ok'd by a vet, the hands might be the problem and not the bit. I don't approve of nosebands either. eep:


I agree, although I do use nosebands from time to time, I prefer not to now except as a last resort. The story I told was my first pony when I was 13 years old, I was not nearly as good of a rider as I thought I was :hobbyhors nonetheless, I was not able to make him happy and comfortable working in a bit (for the record I was able to ride other horses with no mouth related problems), and the hackamore gave me much better results at the time with this particular pony. If I were to work with a horse like this today, I would have a different approach and expect somewhat different results


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> Darntootin .... just curious did the seller indicate the horse had this problem ?
> 
> Troutriver never heard of working a drafter with a hackamore .... but I was wondering about that possibility as I was thinking about this problem this morning. Interesting !


Nope the previous owner only said that he hadn't driven him or worked him at all since june....that was around december time.

When I first got him I could not even walk him on the halter, he would fight me and try to run through me and take off. I worked with him for a couple weeks steady and got him halter broke. I tried to lunge him a couple of times but it was always a major struggle, first he would be OK then start bucking and kicking after a few minutes ( thats only in his halter ). I really don't like getting into those types of situations with a horse his size. Now I've been trying to drive him with basically the same reaction....thats why I think its more of an 'attitude' issue. But I definitely will have his teeth checked anyway just in case there are any problems.

Also, after reading some of the posts, I'm going to try a hackamore. That will at least confirm whether or not he is having mouth pain issues. If he still fights me in the hackamore then I think I can finally conclude that the problem is attitude ( my suspicion ).


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## Farmfresh (Jan 11, 2009)

In my experience "attitude" is very seldom the problem with horses. Usually past experiences, pain or mis-communication is the reason that they behave how they behave. I have worked horses that were smarter than their last trainer. They learned that certain behaviors got them out of work. Have a fit and be scary and they will put you away. 

First I eliminate any physical issue. Then we go into the round pen.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2pMt10RrtY[/ame]


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

:umno:13 month old Percheron ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

Farmfresh said:


> ......I have worked horses that were smarter than their last trainer. They learned that certain behaviors got them out of work. Have a fit and be scary and they will put you away.
> .



I think that would be considered "attitude".


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## CIW (Oct 2, 2007)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> OK all you teamsters .... time for some fun !!!
> 
> Look at the second picture ... the one with the view from the rear of the gelding showing the tractor tire.
> 
> ...


 
JOHNNY,
Why would you use a neck yolk as a single tree?


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

CIW said:


> JOHNNY,
> Why would you use a neck yolk as a single tree?


LOLOL The people owning the gelding told me they had a good single tree so when I got there they showed it to me .....

Also the hames were way too small but the tire was very light draft so I used them.

OK you win the Prize

I have a real good story to post later today about how this all went down .... I had 3 very successful sessions with this horse .... then handed the lines to the owner and 10 minutes later had a run away. The owners had riding horses and lots of experience with horses and training.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> :umno:13 month old Percheron ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


absolutely! he is a giant. Tallest yearling I've ever owned. Born in early April. Sent to an Amish farm for some light breaking at 11 months while his mom was having her second colt and getting rebred.. He isn't 2 years old yet, but I've had him up and down the road a few times with a pioneer forecart. 
Here he is with a riding horse, when he was 16 months old.


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## monsterchic (Jan 25, 2013)

Interesting discussion!

Gorgeous pics, everyone. 

Thanks!


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

monsterchic said:


> Interesting discussion!
> 
> Gorgeous pics, everyone.
> 
> Thanks!


Well its not over yet .... I got side tracked by a GMO discussion

..... this thread is soo much fun. I hope that we are giving you a dose of reality ..... I have met many people who were going to farm some with horses ..... So they get them along with harness and equipment .......... and then months later they buy a tractor and equipment ..... making the horses a very expensive hobby.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

Back to the OP. When I started with horses I tried skidding pole wood with a makeshift harness on a green broke little Arab gelding. Things went fine for a while and then he rolled a load of wood over me when he spooked. Despite the fact I'd always thought I had nerves of steel and manly demeanor, I found myself terrified and screaming like a 3 year old girl. I only exaggerate a bit. So then I decided the makeshift/green broke idea wasn't such a great one and found myself a a 14 year old Percheron chunk that came with loads and loads of experience and a harness and collar that fit right. I learned an awful lot from old Jack. We skidded an awful lot of wood too.

I think everyone needs a "Jack" to start with. An older experienced horse that will tolerate the 10 million mistakes you make and not let you get too badly bunged up. Every now and again Jack would turn and look at me when I was attempting something he obviously thought was stupid and just sort of give me "the look" and shake his head a little. After I'd come to the conclusion that whatever it was was a waste of energy and time Jack would perk up a little and get back to work. I miss Jack, a lot.

Consider starting with a single horse. In the woods a single is 3x easier to use than a team. Less than half as wide, easier to maneuver, easier to back. Yes, only half the pull too but in fire wood or normal logs a single will be fine. Get some time under your belt. Then move up to a team.


For specific breeds I'd suggest Haflingers, Percherons, Belgians. Or, any cross with those breeds and something like a Quarter horse or Standardbred that has a good wide chest, good muscling and good feet and legs. Pretty isn't as important as BROKE and sensible. Hot, green horses, stud horses, fancy hitch horses and most ex-pulling horses are not what you want. Don;t worry about Shires and Clydes and Varners and other rare or show breeds. Start with something simple and not high dollar and see if you even like horses. Some people just aren't horse folks. And if at all possible if you're looking at a mare get her out with some other horses. Mares generally have more heart than geldings, but some mares can be a real handful as far as being "in charge" around other horses. Geldings tend to be far more tractable and laid back.

This video will give you a pretty good idea what to look for- [ame]http://vimeo.com/48325757[/ame]


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

There is no doubt in my mind what you are looking for. While the breeds you suggest are known both for their pulling power and their beauty, the Suffolk (sometimes referred to as the "punch" because of its muscled, "punched" up body) is unmatched. Suffolks have the best feet, comparable only to a Mustang and can work all day. They are good tempered and if you can get your hands on one you'll never get rid of them. These attractive ches(no t) horses cannot be beat regardless of what you try to match them with. When I can afford to buy another pair there is no doubt I'll go straight for Suffolks.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

Bret 4207

Yes that is the best of advice you gave.

In the summer of 1984 I had a this four year old "Fritz" who was broke for over 2 years and had worked fairly steadily for a few months the year before with another man's mature horse. My other horse was two and too young to work in the woods. A friend of mine had a log skidding contract on a piece of timber and his son was unemployed and doing the skidding. They knew i was wishing I could skid. One day this man said he bought an old Amish horse at a sale because he felt sorry for the horse which was in very poor condition. Rumor was that the old horse would get stiff when lying down in the tie stall and could not get up easily .... so the Amish man put cement blocks under him so he would not lay down.

So I agreed to borrow the horse. I thought he looked too poor to work much but the man said he would keep his eye on things .... and he assured me the horse would gain as I used him (probably because he knew me and my horse were too green to get much done)

The old bay horses name was Jake .... and Jake taught me to skid !!!! I will share just one example. We were using log boats .... wood runners with some cross members and the runners were made from 4 x 12 inch plank 10 feet long sitting on edge with ends cut at a slant.We used the horses to load the logs onto the boat. Sometimes I was not watching ahead because I was trying not to be run over by a moving log. So there were times when the team was heading straight for a sapling. Jake knew that a sapling could not pass between Himself and Fritz ..... so Jake would crowd over or else pull Fritz sideways so that the team would clear the tree. I could go on more here but the point to get across was that Jake taught me to log. Fritz didn't have a clue and If I had had two like Fritz I would not have gotten much done.

FYI a horse can be a decent worker in the field and not make it logging .... Logging take a very good horse.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Think he'll get tall? Week old Percheron colt, out of a workhorse style mare, sired by a national Champ hitch style stallion. 
Good thing colts are so darn cute, because they are a lot of trouble.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

and here he is at 21 months. Camera was messing up, so that's all I got.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Farmer2B said:


> There is no doubt in my mind what you are looking for. While the breeds you suggest are known both for their *pulling power* and their beauty


(Bold face is mine) Not Friesians. Friesians are carriage horses. They are bred to be fancy and elegant. Not for pulling power.


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