# Foundationless?



## happydog (May 7, 2008)

I just read about using frames without foundations. I'd like to give it a try. I found the instructions a bit vague. "Just snap out the top strip of wood and nail it in at a 90 degree angle." I think I need a visual image. Do you put it on the side, and if so, what's the purpose of having it at all? Or is it supposed to bisect the frame? My supers are shallow so wouldn't I need to cut the wood strips?

Does anyone have a photo they can share, or could you describe how you make a foundationless frame? Or any experience in how well it works (or doesn't) for you?

Thanks!


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## goodatit (May 1, 2013)

http://www.beverlybees.com/foundationless-frames-willow-hive-check-42612/

here is a link that might help you.


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## happydog (May 7, 2008)

HA! Yes, now I get it. You attach it at the TOP, I was thinking he meant on the side. That helped a lot, thanks!

According to that link they're alternating foundationless frames with foundations. I guess I'll start with that. Thanks!


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## snettrecker (Jan 27, 2006)

I agree with the alternating big. I started out foundationless and I had a big mess where the bees would build sometimes 3-4 layers wide and never attach but to one frame. It was a pain to get out. Now that I use some foundation, it's less severe, but still get it sometimes 2 wide. But I think that it's worth it to let the bees do it naturally sometimes. And they definitely do prefer to build their own. They usually build all foundationless frames out, then come back and do the foundation. Just my experience


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## happydog (May 7, 2008)

Do you need to use wire if you have shallow supers? Or could I just use the popsicle sticks?


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## goodatit (May 1, 2013)

if you are going to use an extractor to remove the honey from the frame, you will need support for the foundation. i don't know what the bees would think of popsicle sticks. try and see. you don't need any support if you are just after cut comb.


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## Forest (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm a new beek myself, but I tried this exact same thing. When I did the breaking out of the strip and nailing/gluing it in at a 90 degree angle, it turned out that it wasn't enough guidance for my package bees. They would build comb that was mostly in the right direction, but would often center more on the side of the frame than on the center of the frame, and occasionally would cross frames or have two parallel combs attached to the same frame. Obviously it's hard to get at your bees without destroying everything if the comb sticks out to the side of the frame or even crosses between frames.

I would then cut out the comb that they built and re-center it in the frames so that it was straight, and fix it in there with rubber bands until the bees reattached it. I would also alternate the comb that they had drawn straight with empty frames. It's possible to do, but it's a pain in the neck to cut out and reinsert and rubber-band in new comb that is extremely soft and breakable. stresses the bees, too. I kept having to do it. Once I got to my third box, it got really old, and I started doing something else instead.

I got sheets of wax foundation with wire. I cut strips of foundation 6 cells wide and installed them into the frame (there are a lot of youtube videos out there about how to install foundation- the only difference was I was installing a strip instead of a whole sheet). I initially cut the foundation strips at 8 cells wide, because you need some extra wire to install the foundation strip. I then removed two cell widths worth of wax from one side (only the wax- I left the wire sticking out). I then bent the 2 cell widths long sticking out wire at 90 degrees at the point where it exits the remaining wax, and voila- custom made starter strips.

This has worked really fantastic. I have not had a single cutout or even any burr comb at all in the boxes, the comb is perfectly straight, they still build whatever size cell comes naturally, and it is almost exclusively their own wax if that's important to you.

Can't give any input on the wire/extracting- I only have one hive at this point, and I plan to crush and strain. So I do not use any wire (with the exception of the wire that remains in the starter strips- but that is just 6 cells wide and doesn't cross the frame, so it doesn't really add stability).


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

In order to get bees to draw straight foundationless comb you need to place the foundationless frame between two drawn frames. Don't bother with re-attaching the wedge. Pop the wedge out and put the frame in that way. The edge that is created is enough of a guide for the bees.

When I transfer from a nuc to a full sized hive body I place 2 empty frames against one edge. Then a drawn frame from the nuc. Then an empty....drawn....empty....etc. The bees will rapidly draw out the frames that are between combs of brood. It upsets their little ocd hearts to have that gap in their brood nest so they get right on that.....as long as there is a honey flow or they are being fed.

The key is to hem in your foundationless frames so that they are forced to draw the comb correctly.


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