# Preparations We Hadn't Thought About



## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

The past couple years my wife and I began looking seriously at where we want to live and what we want to do going into our retirement years. We are both 58 so it isn't that far off. For years we tried to "live the dream" and she wanted to get a place in a prestigious development where her family would drop the "it's nice but..." routine. She really didn't like the idea of living out in the boondocks.

That was 25 years ago. During that time, we have come to realize that the vacations and outings we enjoy the most are the ones out in the woods. We prefer places that aren't "touristy", but are isolated and quiet. Rather than hearing personal watercraft and people kicking up a ruckus, we prefer to watch and listen to wildlife. It is where we feel at peace and at home.

We were watching "The Last Alaskans" about 6 months ago and she looked at me and told me she had been thinking a lot over the past few months about our future home and thinks we need to homestead on our own piece of land in the woods. And she thinks we should look into living off the grid. I heard a choir of angels in the background!

So, we have begun preparations to purchase a piece of land to start clearing a space for a driveway, house, and garden. In the meantime, our discussions led us to decide on some ways to prepare.

1. We rent a place on the edge of town. Our landlord had already told us he didn't mind if we planted a garden. A few weeks ago I tilled an area and we are doing a small fall garden. We don't have space for a large garden, but we can use a small garden to learn how to compost and how to successfully grow an organic garden.

2. Downsizing the technology bundles to reduce cost and get us used to doing something besides sit and watch TV or play games when we get home.

3. Finally get the old neglected project truck on the road so we can sell one of our cars and use that money toward our land purchase.

4. Pull things out of boxes in the basement to sell on eBay and Craigslist. I must have $5K of model railroad stuff in boxes that hasn't seen the light of day in 3 moves.

5. For years I have known that I need to lose about 50 lbs. It will help with my blood pressure, cholesterol, and lower back. Time to get serious about it. Best to be as fit and healthy as possible. This has finally given us motivation.

6. We will be canning and otherwise preserving a lot of the food we raise. While we only have a small garden now, no reason not to hit the u-pick places and local orchards and start honing the skills now on a small basis.

7. Clear out the overgrown corner of the lot. It will be good practice, and it will give me a place to put a small chicken coop. Again, no reason not to develop skills now on a small basis.

8. Pay off debt at an aggressive pace and don't acquire any more debt.

9. All purchases must be agreed on in advance.

10. My wife still gets her bags of Starbucks coffee to brew at home, and she still gets her dark chocolate a couple times a month. And when we make a trip to Cape, I still get my White Castle. I know, that may conflict with 5, but you've got to leave me with something!

11. A chart with milestones so we can see how we are doing. Sorry folks, we have both been in corporate America too long and haven't yet figured out how to live without our charts and graphs!

12. Cut down alcohol consumption. I've found that it is easy to do when I come home and stay active instead of having a beer or bourbon and coke while vegging in front of the TV or computer. And it helps with number 5.

13. Learn all we can to help us reduce, reuse, recycle. We want to have a positive impact on the land we live on, not a trash heap.

Any other suggestions?


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Sounds like you have a firm handle on it and headed in the right direction. Conserving the resources you have is the best thing to do and cheapest as well... Less you put out, the more you keep for more important things. That applies across the board... consuming more than you need only puts money in someone else's pocket and lightens yours.

I am not a fan of renting... simply put, why pay someone else's mortgage that you get no return on. One years rent makes for a down payment on a property. Dumping any debts that you don't "need" to have and focussing on what you need then what you would like to have... wants come after the important things.

Have you figured out what you would like to accomplish... do you want to be off-grid and completely homesteading or subsistence farming or a mix. Have you considered buying Land (mortgage is one a reasonable debt if manageable) and what you could leverage from the land purchased ?


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Suggestion ...... Seems the popular trend is to start with bare land and clear it out and shape to meet your needs. There are a whole lot of old neglected farms and homesteads out there that would have some real advantages over starting from scratch.

The house and buildings are typically already built in the best locations on the site; high ground to shed water, good breeze, etc.
Much of the land clearing is already done.
The driveway and road access is already there.
Some of the utilities, well, septic., etc. may already be there and functional.
Barns, fence, gardens and other such infrastructure may already be in place.

Even if you have to tear down the house you are often money ahead.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

How close are you to the New Madras fault? If I was looking for property that would be on the must avoid list.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Awesome oldtruckbbq! Glad to hear both of you are onboard...
Little steps and soon you'll have that dream. 
Have you bought the land yet? Where about?

Need a good working truck for sure...

Bare land vs old homestead in need of fixing....hard for me to really judge which is better. Old homestead has the services hooked up and a place (hopefully habitable) to stay (save rent). But one is faced with figuring out what PO did. How healthy is septic field, where lines are buried, and were they done properly. If the well is in good shape and mechanicals. 
Bare land probably gives one the cheapest option, but putting in services can get expensive...I probably (ok, I went way overboard) went overboard on my services, but discounting two posh sheds (electrical and well shed), I paid around 50-60k for services and that is doing all the work myself (except the actual drilling of well, and paying off Hydro for transformer and electricians for 200amp meter/main panel install). All the bits added up. That being said, I am set as far as services go, until end of days. I enjoyed the learning experience and if anything goes wrong, I'll know exactly what the issue is....
An existing old homestead house...if it is a teardown, all you save is rent. If fixable, you save a lot of paperwork and money on permitting/engineer etc. The permitting process where I live is silly...and getting sillier. Some folks have had to pay for aboriginal 'archeologists' to watch you dig a hole for foundation...


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## homebody (Jan 24, 2005)

Hello there, I was reading your post and when I got to the word "Cape", I looked at your location. We are West of Cape, go to it for most everything. Good luck on your adventure, we plan to move out of state and hope to be gone by next spring.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

Fishindude said:


> Suggestion ...... Seems the popular trend is to start with bare land and clear it out and shape to meet your needs. There are a whole lot of old neglected farms and homesteads out there that would have some real advantages over starting from scratch.
> 
> The house and buildings are typically already built in the best locations on the site; high ground to shed water, good breeze, etc.
> Much of the land clearing is already done.
> ...


We have looked at 2 properties that have electric and county water running right in front of them. One we are hoping to work out a way to purchase has water and a 200 amp service run to it already. The previous owners used it to escape with an RV, so it has a gravel circular drive and a gravel pad to park a trailer. It doesn't have a septic system yet. We looked at another property that had a house on it that burned down. It has a slab, water, electric, and septic. Problem is, the septic system is 25 years old. The slab has cracks and flaking in it, no doubt caused by the heat from the fire, so it isn't really serviceable.

Everything has its ups and downs, you just have to list the positives and negatives, then decide how that lines up with what you hope to accomplish. The idea of clearing land certainly has its romantic attraction, but I'm 58 with an unreliable back. Getting a piece of land that already has a lot of the grunt work done has a real appeal to me because I can use my energy to make improvements that will add real value.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

Steve_S said:


> Sounds like you have a firm handle on it and headed in the right direction. Conserving the resources you have is the best thing to do and cheapest as well... Less you put out, the more you keep for more important things. That applies across the board... consuming more than you need only puts money in someone else's pocket and lightens yours.
> 
> I am not a fan of renting... simply put, why pay someone else's mortgage that you get no return on. One years rent makes for a down payment on a property. Dumping any debts that you don't "need" to have and focussing on what you need then what you would like to have... wants come after the important things.
> 
> Have you figured out what you would like to accomplish... do you want to be off-grid and completely homesteading or subsistence farming or a mix. Have you considered buying Land (mortgage is one a reasonable debt if manageable) and what you could leverage from the land purchased ?


I'm not a fan of renting either, but we moved from one state to another and decided to rent while my wife looked for a job and we decided where we were going to end up.

Right now we are still studying and deciding what we want to do. We are really leaning toward being off grid and are determining exactly what that will involve and what adjustments we are prepared to make in order to be off grid. We will start out with subsistence farming with the goal of expanding so that we can use surplus from the homestead to either sell or barter. My wife loves the idea of keeping bees, but I am allergic so we may have to work out a compromise there.

As for land, we are planning on purchasing some land in the next 6 months to start making improvements in preparation for building a home on it and ditching town life. We are looking for 5 - 10 acres. It will give us enough for gardens, chickens, rabbits, and a couple sheep (love me some lamb chops!) without being unmanageable. By the same token, we are also open to a larger piece of land with marketable timber that we could sustainably manage.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

Darren said:


> How close are you to the New Madras fault? If I was looking for property that would be on the must avoid list.


Right now we are on the East side of Crowley's Ridge just a few miles from the New Madrid Fault. We are looking at property in the Ozarks in the Greenville or Williamsville areas. Seems like no matter where you go there is some kind of natural disaster waiting to happen, you just have to be aware of them and build accordingly.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

Your plans sound like you've done a lot of brainstorming and they are ambitious! It's exciting, isn't it? 

I have no wish to discourage you or underestimate your resolve or personal stamina, but... have either of you ever lived this way in your pasts? 

I mention it because both my late husband and I did to some extent, so we had some idea of what we were getting into. We purchased a very sound property with everything already pretty much complete and in great shape. We took on merely a major kitchen remodel and extensive home redecorating but not rebuilding. 

We added fencing, a horse (1), cattle (only 2 at a time), llamas (2), goats (3), chickens (a dozen); dogs (4), cats (4), rehabilitated a 50 x 75 foot garden area; and brought the orchard back into production. We started with a fine barn, shop, good well, good septic, electric and all other necessary services already installed.

We spent at least a third more than we expected we would.

We worked our tuchas off.

So, based on our experiences, here are my suggestions to you:

Be sure to budget not just for building costs, but equipment you will need to maintain all your hard work. This will likely include a tractor, chainsaws, rototiller, sprayers, weed whippers, trailers, carts and all other manner of paraphernalia attendant to keeping up your land.

And fencing. Lots and lots of fencing. Net fencing, electric fencing, gates and the whole shebang.

Every garden you plant will have gratuitous hangers-on who want to enjoy all your hard work. You'll do battle with moles, gophers, rabbits, deer, raccoons, maybe also fox, coyotes, bobcats and who knows what else? I personally also battle ravens, cougar and the occasional bear. Don't even get me started on the insects!

Your livestock will need regular veterinary care performed either by you or a good vet who comes to you. They will likely need hay and/or other feed to keep them sound through the winter. Sheep need shearing. Things tend to go wrong with livestock at the worst possible times, so you need to be ready for that. It can be both costly and heartbreaking.

I applaud your efforts to start learning on a very small scale -- that's great practice! But it won't prepare you for managing a larger property, not really. It's one thing to can up a few pints of applesauce... something else entirely to deal with 3-4 bushels of apples when they all ripen at once. Right along with the 200 pounds of tomatoes, zucchini, peppers, corn... you get the idea. And remember, you still have to make time to muck out stalls, trim hooves, control weeds, mow pastures, fix fencing -- and keep up with all the other projects you're trying to accomplish at the same time.

In short, it's a buttload of work. The very best advice I can give you is, _take it slow_. Start small. Figure out your budget and then double it. Figure out your time scale and then increase it by a factor of at least twice as long.

Again, not trying to discourage you in any way! It's a wonderful dream and an even better reality. But as they say... wise men learn from their mistakes. _Really_ wise men learn from the mistakes of others. 

Best to you and your wife, and welcome to the forum!


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

melli said:


> Awesome oldtruckbbq! Glad to hear both of you are onboard...
> Little steps and soon you'll have that dream.
> Have you bought the land yet? Where about?
> 
> ...


We have looked at several bare land properties, a couple with electric and water already run to the property, and a couple with older single wide trailers that are actually being lived in right now, they just need some tlc. When you can get a property with a habitable building for only $10K more than bare land, it is definitely attractive because we could move there immediately and ditch the rent payment. That money would go a long way toward improvements on the property.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

oldtruckbbq said:


> We have looked at several bare land properties, a couple with electric and water already run to the property, and a couple with older single wide trailers that are actually being lived in right now, they just need some tlc. When you can get a property with a habitable building for only $10K more than bare land, it is definitely attractive because we could move there immediately and ditch the rent payment. That money would go a long way toward improvements on the property.


For sure, go for the one's with habitable homes if only 10k more! Wasn't in the cards for me...bare land was 150k min...one with habitable house was double, if not more. 

Now that I am past the major clearing and services are installed, and I live on it, I am glad I did it...a solid foundation as it were. 

I'm a bit younger than you guys, so I was able to tackle homesteading twice as it were...first time, I had the house and services built by a contractor, so shelter was taken care of...just the land needed the work. That was a job in itself. This time around, everything is from scratch...whole different ball game. But the first time helped me avoid some pitfalls...and I had connections, which are really important. 

Raeven - you nailed it with "_Really_ wise men learn from the mistakes of others". To often I see the same mistakes of weekend warriors coming up here thinking they got it, and they don't. They end paying through the nose, until the light turns on...Doesn't matter what I say...lol
They wise up, but not many 'really wise men' around. 
BTW - I am fencing the whole friggin lot with chain link 7' ft tall! Cost a fortune, but will be worth every penny...I did game fence around garden and select areas of old place, but the deer destroyed half of it...electric is too much maintenance for me, and I'm not comfortable relying on it to keep all the critters out.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

@OldTruckBBQ You have a plan and headed in a direction and open minded / flexible. BEST NEWS ! Some folks get stuck on minutia and never get to the destination. If you can find a property with a "shack" to live in while improving / building that is certainly a big bonus. "Shack" meaning something temporary that you are gonna chuck or repurpose later.

It is nice to have access to "Services" such as power, gas etc but having access or being dependent is two very different things. Uncertainty is one thing we can all count on in the world and therefore I would make such suggestions that would *enable* you to be independent / free from such dependencies.

Solar / Wind (if the area is suitable for wind) can certainly work if excessive use is reined in and that sort of independence is awesome (no feeling like having power and being OK when you see the region in a blackout and people freakin). That's something no one get's till they are experiencing it.

Gas: There's a bit of gotcha there... Propane Appliances (on demand heater, stove, fridge etc) offer potentially more freedom than Natural Gas appliances. Although Propane (LPG) is a by-product of petro-refining, it is low pressure and therefore easily adapted to Biogas which can be self generated using your waste as a fuel source. Being done all around the world and tried, true, well tested & works. Natural Gas is High Pressure with different regulators, jets and orifices for the fuel and can get costly to convert. BTW, Natural Gas is Biogas as it is 98% Methane with sulfur added for smell.

Goats are great except they can eat you out of house & home in no time... new gardens are a favourite....


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

Raeven said:


> Your plans sound like you've done a lot of brainstorming and they are ambitious! It's exciting, isn't it?
> 
> I have no wish to discourage you or underestimate your resolve or personal stamina, but... have either of you ever lived this way in your pasts?
> 
> ...


I appreciate your thoughts. Spending hard earned money wisely is a virtue, indeed a necessity. Being prepared gives better chances for success.

Currently I get up at 4:30 PM to get ready to go to work at 6 PM. I get off work shortly after 6 AM and get home around 6:45 AM. By the time I do a couple things around the house, I have to get some sleep so I can get up in a few hours and do it again. And I do this 7 days a week, including most holidays, with a couple days off every 3 weeks or so. To think, when I took this job it was supposed to be 8-9 hours a day on 1st shift, some Saturdays, and the occasional Sunday when we had a big project going. I'm looking for something different to earn money while we continue to get to where we want. Now way I could do what we want the way the job situation is right now. Basically after all these years working ourselves into the ground and seeing managers get promotions, raises, and bonuses that we don't get, we are ready to put our time and energy into taking care of ourselves. 

This is something we will be doing basically to provide for ourselves as we move toward retirement. I'm under no illusions that I'm prepared to take on large livestock. We are wanting to take on chickens as a starter, maybe rabbits and raise a lamb or big for slaughter. Everything takes care, feeding, and money, and I agree that if you go into it with barely enough money, you are setting yourself up for some real struggles and disappointment.

A few years ago I was partnering with a friend in a custom slaughter business. Worked fine until he started pulling money out of the business to cover his wife's overdrafts and suppliers cut us off for non-payment. We did bbq catering and sold at weekend festivals and events. Most festivals and events we cleared $1000 plus in profits. When I'm in a position where I'm not working nearly every holiday and weekend, my wife and I are going to bring our equipment out of storage and start doing that again. Can't do that if you have a bunch of livestock to tend.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

Steve_S said:


> @OldTruckBBQ You have a plan and headed in a direction and open minded / flexible. BEST NEWS ! Some folks get stuck on minutia and never get to the destination. If you can find a property with a "shack" to live in while improving / building that is certainly a big bonus. "Shack" meaning something temporary that you are gonna chuck or repurpose later.
> 
> It is nice to have access to "Services" such as power, gas etc but having access or being dependent is two very different things. Uncertainty is one thing we can all count on in the world and therefore I would make such suggestions that would *enable* you to be independent / free from such dependencies.
> 
> ...


We are definitely wanting to reduce our dependence on the grid and reduce our impact on the environment. We will definitely need a backup source of some type because we have a deep freezer stuffed full. Research I've done doesn't show most of the Ozarks to be good for wind, but solar with a battery pack is definitely an option. I would love to find a place with a good year round stream or spring to use for hydroelectric, but the regulations for doing something like that on your own land can get you caught up pretty quickly. At least, for now, we don't live in a state where it is illegal to capture rain water off your roof for use later.

I had to fence off the garden we put up in our fenced in back yard because our Lab/Boxer mix thought digging in freshly turned soil was just the most exciting thing in the world. The dogs keep the rabbits chased out of the yard when they are out there, but they enjoy the yard when the dogs are in so I put up fence that is supposed to keep the rabbits out. And I'm used to fence maintenance because our Chocolate Lab is an escape artist and likes to probe for weaknesses.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

"state where it is illegal to capture rain water off your roof for use later." GEEZ ! In the Ozarks ?? 

Looking at http://www.ncsl.org/research/environment-and-natural-resources/rainwater-harvesting.aspx Missouri is not listed... Believe NOTHING Always double check everything!

Same people who drained the wetlands, swamps & bogs that fed into the aquifers... and converted those lands to housing or farms. Lack of planning on their part in regards to maintaining aquifer's and potable water sources leads to crisis on your part... 

Argue that God sent the water to you and that you'll use it and it shall return to the land in the fullness of time.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

What I have learned the hard way is if you dont have money to pay people to do jobs you no longer can do your self for- get- it. Homesteading is not for the poor of pocket or back


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## rockpile1 (Aug 24, 2016)

If you go just West of you into the Hills there is many places very reasonable price. Very Isolated, rocks yes but can be Gardened, Raised Beds might be best.

Living Off Grid sounds nice. But we lived for years without any Electric or Phone, even Generated. Knew many that generated their own and considered it. But being about your age and price of Buying Electric in Missouri just not real feasible, can spend more time doing other work around your place and enjoying it than messing with Electric.

rockpile


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## rockpile1 (Aug 24, 2016)

Forcast said:


> What I have learned the hard way is if you dont have money to pay people to do jobs you no longer can do your self for- get- it. Homesteading is not for the poor of pocket or back


Very true. We moved into bare Land at 40, always plenty of work, did all the work ourselves, including working on Vehicles.

Now in 60's yes can still do most but some things are much harder.

rockpile


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## macmad (Dec 22, 2012)

Excited for you. We did the bare land option about six-years ago about 25 minutes outside of Cape. It was a part-time place for the first five-years, but we got a massive amount of work accomplished. Have fun!


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

Steve_S said:


> "state where it is illegal to capture rain water off your roof for use later." GEEZ ! In the Ozarks ??
> 
> Looking at http://www.ncsl.org/research/environment-and-natural-resources/rainwater-harvesting.aspx Missouri is not listed... Believe NOTHING Always double check everything!
> 
> ...


I was referring to Colorado about capturing rain water. "At least, for now, we don't live in a state where it is illegal to capture rain water off your roof for use later." There was also a guy in Montana a few years back who built a pond filled by a stream running through his property. Even though he had permits from the county, the Feds came after him threatening him with thousands a day in fines. After spending a lot of money fighting it, he finally won out. This past year in the Ozarks they probably wish people would have captured more water so it didn't end up flooding so bad downstream.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

oldtruckbbq said:


> I was referring to Colorado about capturing rain water. "At least, for now, we don't live in a state where it is illegal to capture rain water off your roof for use later." There was also a guy in Montana a few years back who built a pond filled by a stream running through his property. Even though he had permits from the county, the Feds came after him threatening him with thousands a day in fines. After spending a lot of money fighting it, he finally won out. This past year in the Ozarks they probably wish people would have captured more water so it didn't end up flooding so bad downstream.


Never understood the logic behind some of the arcane rules about water retention...Like Steve S said, it will be sent on it's merry way soon enough. 
Kind of like asking a person not in inhale air too deeply.....

An old neighbor had a pond, made by blasting a pit for the rocks. Well, it filled with water and he actually had the Fisheries and Oceans guy over telling him he couldn't build his house X feet away from it...---
My neighbor could have easily filled it in, made a parking lot and no problem. 
If anything, he was doing us all a favor, as the pond attracted an amphib biologist who said the blasted hole in earth was a blessing as it harbored some endangered species. I managed to get his book on the subject. 
Never knew we had Alligator Lizards up here! They are micro versions of the real deal down south. Hopefully, they will stay that way (very small, like Geckos). 
But the spring racket of frogs mating is unreal...that alone would have me building the house a mile away. The noise is so loud, the house hums inside. 
Another neighbor has the same deal but bigger pond...the wife sleeps in the basement (concrete).


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Melli, I am afraid that logical, rational, critical thinking is now well beyond any Government Institution. It is simply unprofitable in a short term, long term thinking / planning has been banned beyond the limitation of election periods. In other words, long term planning is limited to the length an elected official can remain in power, beyond that is subject to change and will likely be changed by the new opposing power. Happens at every election when powers change hands...

A few progressive regions suffering drought issues are implemented Aquifer Recovery plans by restoring & re-wilding wetlands as well as building catchment ponds with feed bores allowing water to be absorbed into the soil faster. This is working in some nations and have replenished the water retention... You know what the Irony is about this method ? The Babylonians did this 3500 years ago ! and it was a group of poor rural east Indian farmers that convinced the first community to invest & try this ... the people all volunteered to do all they could with the state picking up a small portion of the expense (they felt it could not work while all modern methods had already failed) for the well bores to be drilled. Three years later the aquifer recovered, the farmers can farm and have water is retained but rationed.

Would Cali, Colo or any other state take on such an enterprise ? Would the Farmers & Workers "Volunteer" to do this to help themselves & their neighbours ? Would the Government accept a solution that is ancient and comes from a region they don't "like" and have an aversion to ? (remember there were no Muslims or Christians 3500 years ago)

What is really ironic, is that many civilisations over thousands of years had to solve problems or fail... many failed yet some survived and moved forward. Why there is such a refusal to look at ancient solutions and how they worked for the people then ? Because they did not use "modern resources & tech" ? Can we not take an old solution, apply modern knowledge & understanding and use it ? Is the common thinking that our ancestors were incapable of finding creative & workable solutions, or that they were not smart, the problem ? Modern Techno Man sure thinks he is smarter than all those who trod the path before him. The Arrogance that limits learning from the past and moving beyond problems already solved.

PS: History & Archeology are passions of mine and what they are discovering now about our ancient forefathers is astounding and even remarkable.

@OldTruckBBQ
If you ever worry about getting labelled a "prepper" in a negative way... You can always tell whoever that you are not sitting on 20 Kilo's Pure Lead Bricks and that you do not have a stash of saltpeter, charcoal and sulfur either. 4 Essential Survival Items for a real prepper type. Can't depend on brass being handy over the long term.

Micro-Hydro which does not divert water flows is usually OK but that's usually shallow so could freeze (depending on your location). Divert water & yep, you can find yourself in a heap of Govern-Mental krud. Build a pond that feed to - from a water way (creek / river) might be ok... depends on region. Well they can't say you can't use the Sun or Wind (yet anyways, they wish they could) although some power co's charge you if you connect to their grid which is a really disturbing (profiteering) new trend. Wind is tricky and really depends on the land and patterns... not a simple thing but there are options.


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## Marinea (Apr 15, 2011)

My hubby and I are about your age, retired and living our dream. I have two recommendations based on our experience. Wait, I have three.

First, based on what you described as what you want, you don't need a big place. We raise chickens and rabbits, grow our gardens, lots of fruit trees and are planning for a couple of goats on an acre and a half. We downsized from over 20 acres to a much more manageable situation. We don't want to spend all of our time on maintenance. Don't be afraid to stay small.

Second, consider raised bed gardening. Your back will thank you.

Third, once you buy some land, plan your space and plant fruit trees as soon as you can. They take time to become productive.

Good luck and blessings on your journey.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

Marinea said:


> My hubby and I are about your age, retired and living our dream. I have two recommendations based on our experience. Wait, I have three.
> 
> First, based on what you described as what you want, you don't need a big place. We raise chickens and rabbits, grow our gardens, lots of fruit trees and are planning for a couple of goats on an acre and a half. We downsized from over 20 acres to a much more manageable situation. We don't want to spend all of our time on maintenance. Don't be afraid to stay small.
> 
> ...


Thanks, we are going to need it. I think the biggest thing will to stay focused, flexible, and determined. As I've said about big projects at work, success isn't determined by not making mistakes, success is determined by how you handle the mistakes.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Marinea said:


> My hubby and I are about your age, retired and living our dream. I have two recommendations based on our experience. Wait, I have three.
> 
> First, based on what you described as what you want, you don't need a big place. We raise chickens and rabbits, grow our gardens, lots of fruit trees and are planning for a couple of goats on an acre and a half. We downsized from over 20 acres to a much more manageable situation. We don't want to spend all of our time on maintenance. Don't be afraid to stay small.
> 
> ...


I agree Marinea...too large of place and it becomes work...a lot of it. 
I am trying real hard to landscape my place so that it is easy to mow on a lawn tractor mower (no labor intensive rock gardens, steep slopes). I find mowing so much easier than bush hogging. Plus, once I calm down, I can let grass grow real high between cuts...still will be easy to mow. 

Although I only have 5 acres, only about 2 acres will be tended (rest left as forest). Enough room to have a garden, fruit trees, and chickens etc....
Plus, the forested part will keep me in firewood...


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Melli's words are very wise. I am no spring chicken either and have health issues as a lovely bonus for my declining years. We have a 4 acre mixed bush property, 2 of that is solid bush, 1/2 acre is partial clear (cabin tucked in snug) and the rest is natural open wild grass. The property was never used for anything than some logging years ago. The clear area is where the Garden (raised beds) and greenhouse live... Small just enough to produce for two of us, easy peasy ! Thanks to the deer & turkey's, apple trees and other goodies have been "naturally located" all over the property and still surprising us when we find something we hadn't noticed before. Just discovered a couple of plum trees in the back side... Good Find !

Apply K.I.S.S. to everything... start small and work up to your comfort level. If in doubt kiss the Mrs and think it over then kiss her again and proceed if she kisses back.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

Much to the chagrin of the local cable company, I dropped phone (that we don't use) out of our bundle, dropped down to basic cable from the premium with family pack, and dropped the DVR and HDTV. Cut my cable bill by $75 per month. I immediately went online and increased the monthly autopay on my lowest balance credit card by $75. That will get it paid off in 4 months, then I can increase the autopay amount on the other card by the amount I was paying on the first card. I ran it through a spreadsheet and that is the quickest way to pay them down.

I listed my first 3 HO model railroad engines on eBay. These are engines that I purchased and never took out of the box. Shameful, I know. Many more to follow. Then on to a passenger car set that only came out of the box for a shelf display and many, many freight cars. Although it will be hard because of all the time I put into them, I'm also going to sell buildings with hand built and painted interiors. I thoroughly enjoyed the hobby when my kids and grandkids were young and enjoyed it with me, but I have now moved from Texas to OK, back to Texas, now to Missouri without taking any of the stuff out of boxes. Time to move on without them.

My wife is a purger, not a hoarder. She has pulled little used kitchen appliances out of boxes in the basement and decided to sell them and free up some floor space. We bought a food processor because everyone says you just have to have one because they save so much time. I've got pretty good knife skills, so unless I'm trying to puree something I can do the job pretty efficiently with a knife and cutting board. They take a lot less time and effort to clean than a food processor too. The only appliances she wants to keep are the crockpot, griddle, Scooby Doo waffle maker (??), and coffee maker. She's a champ so I'm ok with the waffle maker.:runforhills:


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Until I decided to "Right Size" my life, I had been carting stuff around for decades... after I bought the property I'm on and decided to relocate closer (to the local town) while building, I decided to give myself a "Life Enema". How's that for a mental picture BUT HANG ON... I emptied 3,000 square feet of "stuff" out of my life and downsized such that everything left all fit into a 14' cube van, with room to spare !

Rule 1) If I haven't used it / needed it in 6 months it went (seasonal exceptions applied)
Rule 2) If it was not something that could be used in the homestead being built. chuck it.
Rule 3) If item had value to a charity or service org... that's where it went. 
Rule 4) If it was recyclable in one way or another, that's where it went.
Rule 5) If junk or just old personal crud (those family photo's of folks from 90 years ago who I don't know anything about and stuff inherited that no one wants) out the door it went. 

I did however keep my 1920's - 1941 Marxs & Lionel O-Gauge trainsets, my old coins & paper currencies etc BUT that isn't significant in space used.

I HAVE TO SAY ! It was hard being ruthless and I got through it with Magz support but got'er done... Afterwards I had such a relief like a massive burden holding me back had just been tossed and I felt free of the "baggage". Many may not understand that but some will.... There is a certain freedom you feel when your not bogged down with "stuff", some of which can carry unpleasant attachments that you may not even realize.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

I HAVE TO SAY ! It was hard being ruthless and I got through it with Magz support but got'er done... Afterwards I had such a relief like a massive burden holding me back had just been tossed and I felt free of the "baggage". Many may not understand that but some will.... There is a certain freedom you feel when your not bogged down with "stuff", some of which can carry unpleasant attachments that you may not even realize.[/QUOTE]


Some of the stuff I have run across makes me feel embarrassed that we actually spent money on it. Definitely caught up in the whole consumerism to look prosperous movement. I do have a penchant for antique books, and those will be with me until the grave. I can read a classic book by fire light when everything else is not working.

I'm also thinking about selling my vinyl albums from the 70's and 80's, along with my Yamaha turntable. A few years back I bought a box that plugs into the USB port on my computer. You can select turntable or tape deck on it. Launch the app on the computer and it records the album in digital format. Filtering takes out a lot of the hisses and snaps on the vinyl. I only have a couple dozen albums that aren't on my laptop, thumb drive, and iPhone. No sense keeping something I haven't used in over 20 years and that my kids will most likely throw in the trash when the grim reaper comes my way.gre:


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## KatsFarm (Sep 13, 2016)

Fishindude said:


> Suggestion ...... Seems the popular trend is to start with bare land and clear it out and shape to meet your needs. There are a whole lot of old neglected farms and homesteads out there that would have some real advantages over starting from scratch.
> 
> The house and buildings are typically already built in the best locations on the site; high ground to shed water, good breeze, etc.
> Much of the land clearing is already done.
> ...


We bought an abandoned farm, complete with mature hardwoods, and pastures, about half/half. Also had a 100 year old farmhouse and an old barn and small pond. It is secluded as some of the life-long residents of the town never knew it even existed. The house had been completely gutted by the former owner, about 2 years ago, and the framing had been repaired or replaced by him. He also put in new replacement windows, vinyl siding and metal roof, and plumbing (sort of). 

Perfect, we thought. It will save us all the prep work and cost of building.

And it was cheap. Those are the good things.

Now for the not so good.

1. Since the place had been "off grid" for at least two years we needed to apply for a permit from the Environmental Health Dept before we could do anything, including getting electricity connected.

2. We want to be green and off-grid, as much as possible, but we do need the electricity for a while in order to use building tools, and keep our food cold.

3. After about 4 months, the EHD agent finally found time to come out to the farm to see what we had. In order to get a building permit the first requirement is to either have a septic system in place or get the land perked.

4. Being in this part of VA, all the land is clay and even thinking there may be a chance for it perk is a wishful. There was an existing "system", basically a hole in the ground, that is unacceptable to EHD and to us. So, we need a new permit, however, the land doesn't perk. Without the system we cannot get a building permit.

5. State regulations changed a few years ago and all "new" construction must pass the septic system challenge in order to do anything. Although we have neighbors at each side of our property who we are pretty certain are not up to code but were grandfathered in.

6. We have one other alternative and we are working on that path, but it's going to cost up to $1k just to have a "site designer" come out and tell us which, if any, grey water filtering system we can use. Once we get his blessing, he will contact EHD who will finally issue our permit and we will be able to begin restoring our farm.

7. There is a well, and the VHD doesn't care if it has clean water or not. 

8. Our old homestead sits on pylons; which has also become "unapproved" so we must have a foundation poured.

9. There's no heating system (remember it's 100 yrs old), but there are two chimneys and two fireplaces. One needs to be completely replaced and the other removed. We plan to heat with wood.

This farm, by the way, is 35 acres and 10 miles from the nearest town. There is also no cell service, no telephone lines, and virtually no internet (unless you don't mind paying an arm and a leg for a few minutes of satellite daily)

Here's our advice. Before you buy, be certain of what is available and what you want, as in creature comfort such as electricity or internet.

If you plan to live in the old home someday, do you want it updated with running water and septic system or will you be okay "roughing it" like when the place was first built?

Are there building codes? How much do permits cost? At least our permits are cheap, only a couple hundred dollars to re-build the house.

The price is low. but the amount of red-tape is ridiculous. We began in March of this year and don't expect to see a light at the end of the tunnel before spring.

Fortunately, we own a big motor-home that we can live in comfortably until that time. We also didn't sell our home right away, and won't for a while. This way we can leave all our stuff stored in the first home while we get the farm settled. We have a family member house-sitting in the mean-time.

I have read that the Dakotas have mostly "no codes", but I don't really want to live where the thermometer freezes during the long winter.

We will be moving to the farm in a few days and roughing it. But, at least we have water, and plenty of space for our goats and chickens, and can begin building the farm itself. And most importantly, it is ours, bought and paid for.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

Every situation has its ups and downs, you just have to balance them out and see if the situation works for you. A realtor friend of ours told us that it is tough to get loans on bare land and property with run down outbuildings and uninhabitable homes or mobile homes. She recommended Farm Credit or a local bank because the bigger banks and mortgage companies don't like dealing with things they can't move quickly if you default.

I've been involved with bringing an old place up to date. I think it would be easier to build from scratch, because then you are only doing the work once. Tearing something out and putting something back in doubles the work and you have to figure out what to do with the old materials. But, to some people there is a great deal of satisfaction in rehabbing, so I'm not going to knock it.

The area where we are looking to buy property has virtually nothing as far as codes other than for the septic system. It shows in some of the things people have put up too. It also shows in the junkyards many of the properties have on them. I don't know about Missouri yet, but in Texas I had a truck I bought for parts and a car that was beyond help. I called a towing company and signed the titles over to them. They hauled them off for free because they were going straight to the salvage yard with them to collect the money for scrap. No reason to have a junked out property if you can get it towed away for free.

Not having codes frees you up to do what you want on your property. On the bad side, it frees up your neighbors too and you might not like what they put up in your field of vision. That's why I've always wanted to get 10 acres or more and put a place up smack in the middle!


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Katsfarm - sounds like you got a handful....
I'm just missing a house...lol
I went the bare land route, and it was the only option for me. 
If they were selling run-downs with the same acreage as I got for say 50k more, I'd be all over that. At least one has a roof over their heads, and probably outbuildings and whatnot. 
Now, you got a real old timer place. Without a real septic field. 
And yep, nobody cares about my water quality, but septic is number 1 up here. Cannot do anything without septic. I put a link in my thread about Eljen System...good for non perc areas. Small footprint too. 
Heck, I even think the company that designed them is near you...
Has worked for me...quite honestly, I don't care...lol
As long as i smell nothing, it is all good. The septic tank takes care of most of it...just smelly water exits into the Eljen system. 
I did it myself for about 14k (including engineer sign off)...I suspect one can do it for less, but I was on rock. I needed loads of fill to make a base. 
Best, Melli


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

Well, looks like we are about to be rid of a car payment, unless we get screwed by the guy's insurance company. My wife went to Texas to visit our daughter and grandkids. A 19 year old kid sped up to try to cut her off and hit the driver rear corner of our car. It is only 3 years old, but I'm sure it will be totaled due to the damage done to the C pillar, roofline, and looks from the pics I've seen like it probably got into the rear sub frame. Between his insurance and gap insurance the car will be paid off. If our insurance has to pay for it will be paid in full. Since we moved and went from 60 mile commutes to work down to <10 mile commutes to work, my wife doesn't want to get into another new car loan, she wants something used for less than $5K. We were going to have to trade the Focus in a couple years for a truck or SUV because it is too low to the ground for the gravel roads in the area we plan on buying land. 

More proof that you just have to stay flexible and make the most of every situation. And be thankful that nobody was hurt.


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