# Energy independence - can it be done?



## csils (Oct 10, 2008)

Hi All - So our goal is to become independent of the variables in cost and supply that we have little control of. Our first purchase was an OWB. This eliminated our need for propane($4/gal) Next target is electricity - - So we are getting a 10kw sunpower solar system. But we are grid tied and when the grid goes downs so will our well and OWB etc. etc. The cost of adding batteries is not an option today. So I am wondering what we should be thinking about for this install - in order to prepare for eventually adding batteries and anything else we will need to operate independent of the grid - should the grid go down. Solar panels will be installed at the barn - about 200 feet from the house and electric panel. We have 2 200amp panels at the house/business plus 100 amp subpanel and a 60 amp subpanel at one barn and a 100 amp sub panel at another barn. Thanks in advance for any input!


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## Drew Cutter (Dec 30, 2008)

Need to to know where you live (State , part of state) . Why Solar ? How much sunlight do you get ? You can geothermal with some added hardware to generate electricity . My guess wind is out ? Solar is one of the more expensive ways to go . have you figure out how soon this will pay you back .


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## swampyoaks (Jan 6, 2008)

The first thing I'd do is get some books on the subject and get a good understanding of off grid systems. You can find them all over the internet.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

what is a OWB . .??

Kind of wondering about your statements. You are affording a 10k grid tied system, but say batterys are not an option now. . .???
You know of course that the grid tie inverter they are probably going to install will not work with batterys.............
Why would you go that route...?...if your thinking about adding bats later..?``

It could be made to work with the purchase of a second inverter plus the bat bank.

Me thinks you need a good sit down talk with the installer.


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

OWB may be lingo for Outdoor Wood Burner - they mention that it replaced propane and that it requires electricity, so that is what I'd assume it is...



Jim-mi said:


> what is a OWB . .??
> 
> Kind of wondering about your statements. You are affording a 10k grid tied system, but say batterys are not an option now. . .???
> You know of course that the grid tie inverter they are probably going to install will not work with batterys.............
> ...


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi,
Outback (maybe others?) make a grid-tie inverter that also allows battery backup for utility power outages:
http://www.outbackpower.com/applications/residential/grid_interactive/

10KW seems like a lot. Most people find it better to work on lowering their power requirements through conservation/efficiency, and then getting a smaller PV array.

Gary


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## csils (Oct 10, 2008)

Thanks for the Outback link -We were looking at SMA inverters - We are in NJ and have great incentives plus a partial rebate program. We were on the waiting list for two years and the system is now somewhat affordable. But we could not add another $10,000 to the price tag for batteries and additional inverters. No one has ever asked our installer for an off grid system so prepping for the future to be able to go off grid or handle power outages is new to them also. I also have been told that the panels are actually wired differently if you are off grid - will that apply with the inverters that can work grid tied and switch to battery back up when the grid goes down?


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## Drew Cutter (Dec 30, 2008)

An off the grid system is much more expensive than on the grid. For the battery i don't believe you will need as many batteries if you are worried about power outages. Just enough batteries to get you by for a couple of days. But the question is how many times have you been without power and for how long .
Why not just have an outlet that dedicated for generator for backup , for times when you need power at night and solar take care of your needs during the day.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Yes the SMA is a very good piece of equipment.
And yes I can make that SMA work in an"off grid" system . . .with another $2500 inverter and additional 'hardware'.

From what you have posted about that *installer* I would walk rapidly away from him.....!!!


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Oh ya . . if in fact OWB means an outdoor wood furnace then a small tidbit on that.
A friend\customer of mine insisted on going that route . . .fine . . .except he for got to figure how much power all those 5 (five) pumps were going to need for the system to run right.

He had to fire up his gas generator a whole bunch to feed those electric ly hungry pumps.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

My betters have already weighed in...
I'd never consider spending tens of thousands of dollars for a worthless 'feel good' system. If you're on grid, the economics aren't there. And, if you're still grid reliant, what's the point.

You don't have to go whole hog and get the bestest inverter and battery bank. A small bank and a small inverter can be had for a couple thousand, and if the grid goes down, you can at least run lights, radio, tv, and possibly the icebox/freezer for a few hours.

If the system were free, I wouldn't take it, or install it, unless I could have a grid independent option, for when the grid goes down. The grid is not your friend.... when you need it the most, it'll leave you in the dark.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

About grid tie...It ISNT just about 'feel good'

Its also about subsidies and tax benefits. That makes grid tie much more affordable for Joe Sixpack and Jane Zinfandel than a stand alone system.

THEN I would modify my stand alone batteries......

Its a good option cost wise.You get professional installation,financing,subsidies and dont need any knowledge to get on board.

So i think its more than just feel good,very many folks going this route are solar savvy taking the cost benefits,not just greenies singing Kum Bi Yah!

And every watt produced is one less watt of fossil fuel poison.Thats a GOOD thing.


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## csils (Oct 10, 2008)

texican said:


> You don't have to go whole hog and get the bestest inverter and battery bank. A small bank and a small inverter can be had for a couple thousand, and if the grid goes down, you can at least run lights, radio, tv, and possibly the icebox/freezer for a few hours.
> 
> I think that is a good suggestion. We will try to get the system designed to work that way.
> 
> ...


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

Grid tie may be a good option cost wise compared to off grid - but they both may be a fools game depending on the specifics. I'm no solar expert, but I'm guessing that NJ is not the sunniest state in the USA. I also see that there are 2 x 200amp electric panels in the house - makes me wonder why so much power and if solar electricity would even make a tiny dent in use. 

Spending $10,000, even if you get a system worth $15,000 with rebates/incentives, makes no sense if you produce a whopping $10 worth of grid electricity per month - it would also make no sense if doors - windows - insulation - ect. needed upgrading - since money spent there would have a far greater impact on overall energy use.

Every watt produced is not one less watt of fossil fuel poison - every watt conserved is one less.

My point is that if you're doing this to save money, or even to try to "save the planet" - do your homework because your money may have a larger impact elsewhere. Ironically, it may be that investing $3500 in a small diesel standby generator and $6500 in something else, results in more costs savings and less environmental impact than a $15,000 solar electric system.


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## Drew Cutter (Dec 30, 2008)

Solar for electricity doesn't make sense if you don't have enough year around sunshine.
Solar collector with a boiler and indirect tank that uses your force air furnace pipes make more sense (more efficient , cost less , doesn't require much sun to work right) . Pay back is allot quicker than solar for electricity . 
Take a look at geothermal and using the excess heat to generate electricity. I have not look in the price of electratherm . Maybe to costly ,until it catches on more.
http://electratherm.com/


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

With subsidsies and tax breaks, the payback time is still going to be a long time (depending on the subsidies).

If I spent any amount of money, I'd want to have the 'option' for energy independence, not completely grid dependence.

I lived off grid 13 years here. I went on grid 8 years ago. The cost of intertie equipment to make my meter spin backwards was going to cost several thousand dollars, the payback would be centuries, for the amount of power I was producing.... And, the electric co-op wouldn't allow any interties.

I want to add more power to my existing solar panels, but not with the idea of feeding the grid. Currently there's only a 30% federal tax break. Prices are falling... when the price drops below a buck a watt, I'll get a lot more.... but even then, I wouldn't hook it up to the grid, but instead, have a hybrid system.

To each his own... I'd rather invest the intertie equipment in a standalone system, switching the power into certain circuits (knowing I needed to shut down all phantom loads when using power from the battery bank). Then I'd "feel good", knowing I wasn't at the mercy of the grid....


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## Drew Cutter (Dec 30, 2008)

Texican ,

"To each his own... I'd rather invest the intertie equipment in a standalone system, switching the power into certain circuits (knowing I needed to shut down all phantom loads when using power from the battery bank). Then I'd "feel good", knowing I wasn't at the mercy of the grid.. "

Could you elaborate on how to Intertie your system for power , etc so that your aren
't at the mercy of the grid . Thanks. 

Side note solar panel have finally hit the dollar mark . But , not enough material to produce these dollar a watt panel yet .


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

A system I'm working at getting installed is one that is shown online here. I've saved the page on my computer and I've been working at getting the parts together so I can install it. It's been slow going, but once it's done, no more cooling bills.  It will also help with heating in the winter as it will bring up 68 degree temps year round. I figure it won't be to hard to raise that 68 degrees up to a comfortable number even in the coldest temps. 

There's a map on the site that gives subsoil temps for the country. I happen to be in an area where the subsoil temp is 68 so it should work very well for me. Even in the far northern part of the country, the subsoil temps are in the mid to high 40's and 50's. Even if for some reason you had no heat at all, those temps would help warm the house from sub freezing temps. 

In southern states where the air temp is often 100 and higher, the subsoil temps are mostly in the low 70's. This system would go a long ways towards making a home comfortable without air conditioning. Think what it could save in electricity in a single summer! 

There are some other good ideas on that site, but this is the main one I intend to work on until I get it accomplished. Then I'll move on to other things.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Drew Cutter said:


> Texican ,
> 
> "To each his own... I'd rather invest the intertie equipment in a standalone system, switching the power into certain circuits (knowing I needed to shut down all phantom loads when using power from the battery bank). Then I'd "feel good", knowing I wasn't at the mercy of the grid.. "
> 
> ...


I've found whole house switches in local hardware stores... they sell them so a person can hardwire their generator into their homes electrical panel... when the grid goes down, they pull the lever to switch to generator. 

I can't see why a person couldn't have two switches, one cutting off the solar power to the grid, and then feeding it into a transfer switch (which would feed the house, and not let any power get back into the community electric grid).

It would be necessary to have a battery bank, to store the power from daylight hours to nighttime hours... otherwise, you'd only have power during the day.

My solar bank is small, so I still have lots of dc only circuits, so I can bypass the inverter (Which takes some precious power to run).

If I spent five figures on a system, I'd invest another thousand in hardware switches so, when the grid is down, I'd still have power. Trust me, working on systems when you have no power is no fun. Fix things when there is no stress.....


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

texican said:


> My solar bank is small, so I still have lots of dc only circuits, so I can bypass the inverter (Which takes some precious power to run).
> 
> If I spent five figures on a system, I'd invest another thousand in hardware switches so, when the grid is down, I'd still have power. Trust me, working on systems when you have no power is no fun. Fix things when there is no stress.....


:bow:


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## frankcassiesmom (Sep 28, 2004)

If you truly want to be off grid why not go no electricity instead of spending an insane amount of money trying to replicate the grid at home?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

It is quite possible to go completely *off grid* for a reasonable ($$$) electrical system . . and still have some modern conveniences. 

BUT

It will require many BIG changes if your a typical indoctrinated grid user now.

Refridgeration is quite affordable.
But there is quite a laundry list of electrical no-no's . . . .all depending on "the size of your system"

This might better be a seperate thread by itself.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)




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