# Less qualified teachers are better teachers



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

California’s newly approved state budget allows teacher candidates to skip two of the tests that had been required to earn a teaching credential if they take approved coursework.

Teacher candidates no longer have to take the California Basic Skills Test, or CBEST, or the California Subject Matter Exams for Teachers, referred to as CSET to earn a credential.

The CBEST tests reading, math and writing skills and is usually taken before a student is accepted into a teacher preparation program.









California cuts the number of tests teachers must take to earn credential


California teacher candidates no longer have to take two of the four tests usually required to earn a teaching credential.




edsource.org


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

“This is a game changer for those who have dreamt of becoming a teacher only to find their paths blocked when they couldn’t pass the Basic Skills or Subject Matter entrance exams,” said Mary Vixie Sandy, executive director of the California Commission on Teacher Credentialing.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

A couple of CBEST questions









More questions at


https://www.ctcexams.nesinc.com/content/docs/CSET_Prep/CS_211items.pdf



Even more at




__





Prepare






www.ctcexams.nesinc.com


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I think people with a learning disability might make the best teachers.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Contrary to the misleading title of this thread, the legislation is not about reducing qualifications. It authorizes the substitution of coursework for 2 tests that have been previously required to enter the teacher certification program. Candidates still have to be qualified to enter the program. Candidates still have to pass the coursework within the teacher education program and they still have to take the other required standardized tests. I wonder if the OP even read the linked article before starting yet another teacher bashing thread.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

No one is bashing teachers.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Today is Bitter Sunday.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> No one is bashing teachers.


Give the thread time. It's only a matter of time.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Defensive much?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Defensive much?


Observant based on past behavior of certain posters.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> ... yet another _incompetent _teacher bashing thread.


Fixed it for you. I thought red ink would be applicable given the subject matter.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Fixed it for you. I thought red ink would be applicable given the subject matter.


First of all, don't change my words.

Second, it's obvious you didn't read the linked article. Why don't you try it?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You must still be on your first cup.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

MoonRiver said:


> I think people with a learning disability might make the best teachers.


I’m pretty sure some teachers meet that criteria.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

...


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> You must still be on your first cup.


Still didn't read the article?

This whole thing is a non-issue. The legislation merely allows substitution of coursework for two standardized tests needed to enter the teacher prep program. Big deal. Teacher candidates could already substitute other tests for those tests.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

RJ2019 said:


> Omg, you guys.....
> Stop baiting our teacher activist. One wonders where the thread may have gone without their input, but try to play nice


You don't have a teacher activist on this thread. You have a teacher who posts facts and truth which some posters can't handle.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Now I’ve gotta clean my screen.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

RJ2019 said:


> Omg, you guys.....
> Stop baiting our teacher activist. One wonders where the thread may have gone without their input, but try to play nice


There are several members who are teachers that may wish to opine later with a trusted history and experience.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

SLFarmMI said:


> You don't have a teacher activist on this thread. You have a teacher who posts facts and truth which some posters can't handle.


Alrighty, I will withdraw my post.
Have a good one.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Evons hubby said:


> I’m pretty sure some teachers meet that criteria.


I meant it as a positive, not a negative. A person with a learning disability has to work harder to learn. They end up learning tricks for how to memorize facts or how to use colors to show differences. They bring an extra set of tools into the classroom. They probably have more empathy for students who are having trouble understanding the material.

I am assuming they are qualified to teach the subject.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> There are several members who are teachers that may wish to opine later with a trusted history and experience.


Which means anything that lines up with what you believe regardless of whether it is factual.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> I think people with a learning disability might make the best teachers.


I would also agree. The prototypical structures in place for what we have currently haven't worked nationwide in a long time.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

MoonRiver said:


> I meant it as a positive, not a negative. A person with a learning disability has to work harder to learn. They end up learning tricks for how to memorize facts or how to use colors to show differences. They bring an extra set of tools into the classroom. They probably have more empathy for students who are having trouble understanding the material.
> 
> I am assuming they are qualified to teach the subject.


Oh, I agree completely.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Which means anything that lines up with what you believe regardless of whether it is factual.


I took it to mean what it said..., other teachers with their own opinions.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> You must still be on your first cup.


Should maybe make it Irish.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

HDRider said:


> “This is a game changer for those who have dreamt of becoming a teacher only to find their paths blocked when they couldn’t pass the Basic Skills or Subject Matter entrance exams,” said Mary Vixie Sandy, executive director of the California Commission on Teacher Credentialing.


I didn't read the original article, but this quote is priceless.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)




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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Keep making the testing easier so less qualified people are allowed to teach.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Keep making the testing easier so less qualified people are allowed to teach.


Or just cut right to the chase and start letting them submit selfies from BLM demonstrations in lieu of certifications or test results.

That will get them what they really want, and waste fewer taxpayer dollars in the process.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> Keep making the testing easier so less qualified people are allowed to teach.


This is a job post for a district about a half day's drive from us. 

_"XXXXX middle school is in desperate need of a science teacher. I worked the summer school there this June. They were very accommodating for materials needed. They are a VERY laid back community where everybody knows everybody. There are behavior issues, and the students are on the lower end of the education level. If anyone is interested, please pm me your contact info so I can get it to their principal. It's about an hour north of here on XXX. You do not have to have a (State) license (at first) to do it, and the only different I've come across is an additional Praxis on theories of education I had to take. If you do not have a teaching license, but have a BS, they will take you on a job-embedded program where you earn your masters while you work in order to get your license. All their students are 1-on-1 device. They've recently updated all the rooms with ViewSonic boards. They are a Google school (it's still brick and mortar, but you use Google for a lot of it, even in-class.)"_


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> Keep making the testing easier so less qualified people are allowed to teach.


From what I’ve seen the tests can’t be much as it is.
I have been told by a supposedly qualified teacher that even though our country was not established until 1776, and slavery ended in 1865 that we practiced slavery for over two centuries!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Again, this plan has nothing to do with reducing the qualifications. It allows substitution of coursework for the test.

Since you don't like California's plan for reducing their teacher shortage, what's yours?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Again, this plan has nothing to do with reducing the qualifications. It allows substitution of coursework for the test.
> 
> Since you don't like California's plan for reducing their teacher shortage, what's yours?


Why would they be able to pass the new test, but not pass the old test?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"In my opinion, these exams just don’t correlate at all to actually being in the classroom and teaching these kids. Maybe it is little different for Single-Subject, but I haven’t taught any of the information from the CSETs in the classroom except maybe some of the English and History. They just seem like an unnecessary money grab for the most part. Even without the CBEST and CSETs, you still have to earn a B.A. degree, go through a teaching program (usually 1-2 years of additional classes relating to your teaching subject), student teaching, and pass the RICA (usually the exam I hear is the most difficult for teachers to get through). That should be enough to qualify someone to be a teacher.

For individuals saying this is bad news for the students and will make a teacher incompetent to teach, give me a break. I have already met a few teachers who are credentialed that leave me wondering why they are even in the career. Some people are just good test takers, and some aren’t. Get as much experience in the field as you can before student teaching. To me, that is more beneficial than a few exams you forget about once you’re done with them. Just my two cents."

From the original link.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> I have already met a few teachers who are credentialed that leave me wondering why they are even in the career. ."
> From the original link.


Makes perfect sense.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> "In my opinion, these exams just don’t correlate at all to actually being in the classroom and teaching these kids. Maybe it is little different for Single-Subject, but I haven’t taught any of the information from the CSETs in the classroom except maybe some of the English and History. They just seem like an unnecessary money grab for the most part. Even without the CBEST and CSETs, you still have to earn a B.A. degree, go through a teaching program (usually 1-2 years of additional classes relating to your teaching subject), student teaching, and pass the RICA (usually the exam I hear is the most difficult for teachers to get through). That should be enough to qualify someone to be a teacher.
> 
> For individuals saying this is bad news for the students and will make a teacher incompetent to teach, give me a break. I have already met a few teachers who are credentialed that leave me wondering why they are even in the career. Some people are just good test takers, and some aren’t. Get as much experience in the field as you can before student teaching. To me, that is more beneficial than a few exams you forget about once you’re done with them. Just my two cents."
> 
> From the original link.


Makes sense. A well educated idiot with degrees shouldn’t be in a classroom teaching kids.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> For individuals saying this is bad news for the students and will make a teacher incompetent to teach, give me a break.


How long has this old standard existed?

What new standard should we have and increase our confidence that we have better teachers? Do we just keep trying new tests until we get enough teachers?

This all plays out back to Ibram X. Kendi and his army of social justice warriors. He preaches that if blacks can't hack it change it until they can.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Seriously, did some of you even read the article? They aren't changing the test. They aren't eliminating any qualifications. They are allowing people to substitute the coursework they have taken for the test in order to enter the teacher prep program if, during the course of getting their undergraduate degree, they have taken certain approved classes which are referenced in the article. Candidates still have to have their undergraduate degree before they can apply to the teacher prep program. Candidates still have to pass all of the required courses within the teacher prep program, they still have to have a successful student teaching experience, they still have to pass the other tests that you take after the teacher prep program.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Seriously, did some of you even read the article? They aren't changing the test. They aren't eliminating any qualifications. They are allowing people to substitute the coursework they have taken for the test in order to enter the teacher prep program if, during the course of *getting their undergraduate degree*, they have taken certain approved classes which are referenced in the article. Candidates still have to have their undergraduate degree before they can apply to the teacher prep program. Candidates still have to pass all of the required courses within the teacher prep program, they still have to have a successful student teaching experience, they still have to pass the other tests that you take after the teacher prep program.


The fact remains they cannot pass the test that has been around since 1983. Dumber teacher graduates need a lower entrance hurdle.

Then we fall a few more rungs down the ladder of educating students. We continue to freefall.

Support school vouchers. 
Make public education competitive, not a politically charged monopoly.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Seriously, did some of you even read the article? They aren't changing the test. They aren't eliminating any qualifications. They are allowing people to substitute the coursework they have taken for the test in order to enter the teacher prep program if, during the course of getting their undergraduate degree, they have taken certain approved classes which are referenced in the article. Candidates still have to have their undergraduate degree before they can apply to the teacher prep program. Candidates still have to pass all of the required courses within the teacher prep program, they still have to have a successful student teaching experience, they still have to pass the other tests that you take after the teacher prep program.


Tis a pity they don’t have a common sense test.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I suppose we could also apply a new standard to kids who wouldn't otherwise graduate.
Finals, tests, attendance, literacy just work to choke the system.
Don't let a passing grade be an obstacle to your success.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> The fact remains they cannot pass the test that has been around since 1983. Dumber teacher graduates need a lower entrance hurdle.
> 
> Then we fall a few more rungs down the ladder of educating students. We continue to freefall.
> 
> ...


So, once again, you've got nothing other than your anti-public education ranting.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Support school vouchers.
> Make public education competitive, not a politically charged monopoly.


Yes. Create competition and improvement of services will come naturally.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> So, once again, you've got nothing other than your anti-public education ranting.


Public education serves a purpose and it should have its place, just as you should. Neither will be what you might want though.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> So, once again, you've got nothing other than your anti-public education ranting.


I’ve nothing against public education. It’s the seeming lack of education in our public schools that concerns me.
according to this Determining Where the U.S. Ranks in Education we are 24th in education!


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Evons hubby said:


> I’ve nothing against public education. It’s the seeming lack of education in our public schools that concerns me.
> according to this Determining Where the U.S. Ranks in Education we are 24th in education!


Some prefer the status quo and oppose trying anything the might upset it.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

All we're really asking is that the schools (k-12) be used for education rather than indoctrination.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

gilberte said:


> All we're really asking is that the schools (k-12) be used for education rather than indoctrination.


And all the teachers are asking is that the comments based on nonsense like "the schools are indoctrinating your children" stop and you stop making teachers your scapegoats.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Is there a mouse in your pocket or have you been nominated their spokesperson?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Is there a mouse in your pocket or have you been nominated their spokesperson?


Right, I forgot that only those who disparage teachers and education should have a voice here.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You have a good voice. You just waste it on bad songs.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> You have a good voice. You just waste it on bad songs.


How sad, but not unexpected, that you declare facts and the truth to be "bad songs".


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

No one I know is mourning.
The status quo with public reeducation is ending.
Fewer and fewer parents are falling into line with what keeps failing.
Now, if you pull your head up and look around HT you will notice you are the only person spewing the company line. Well, other than Stokers Renfield, who has had approximately zero kids of their own inside a public school, you are a Brownie Troop of 1. I have progressive leaning friends who are educators that even believe you mix your union coffee too strong.
I'll whisper this out of respect. Homesteading families here have run their kids thru the system. They know the difference between crap and crap with sugar.
Why aren't they handing out your pamphlets and flowers at the airports?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> No one I know is mourning.
> The status quo with public reeducation is ending.
> Fewer and fewer parents are falling into line with what keeps failing.
> Now, if you pull your head up and look around HT you will notice you are the only person spewing the company line. Well, other than Stokers Renfield, who has had approximately zero kids of their own inside a public school, you are a Brownie Troop of 1. I have progressive leaning friends who are educators that even believe you mix your union coffee too strong.
> ...


And the sad part is that you really seem to believe the crap you spew about teachers and education. 

I post facts and the truth about education based on studies and my more than 2 decades of being in the classroom every day. Unfortunately, you'd rather believe whatever idiotic thing those who get their information from YouTube and Breitbart feed you.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

gilberte said:


> All we're really asking is that the schools (k-12) be used for education rather than indoctrination.


All I'm asking is that funding follows the students to whatever school their parents choose. And, end zip code segregation. The free market will fix the rest. Either there's a demand for public education in its current state or there's not. Impossible to tell in the absence of competition.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Unfortunately, you'd rather believe whatever idiotic thing those who get their information from YouTube and Breitbart feed you.


Now pay attention please -
No one on this forum is buying your product.
We do not live in a vacuum. Our experiences are first hand and sometimes thru the same system that pays you to trumpet for them.
Telling people that their experiences are lies and myths is well, sort of why you aren't trustworthy.
Your a pet rock salesman talking to people who breaks rocks for a living.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> All I'm asking is that funding follows the students to whatever school their parents choose. And, end zip code segregation. The free market will fix the rest. Either there's a demand for public education in its current state or there's not. Impossible to tell in the absence of competition.


"Competition" where public schools are required to accept everyone and private schools can cherry pick is not competition.
"Competition" where public schools are required to provide all necessary services and private schools are not is not competition.
"Competition" where private schools can operate under special rules while public schools can't is not competition.

And, yet, the private school advocates demand public funding while also demanding that they should have to change nothing. That's not competition.

Why are the private school advocates so afraid of competition?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> And the sad part is that you really seem to believe the crap you spew about teachers and education.
> 
> I post facts and the truth about education based on studies and my more than 2 decades of being in the classroom every day. Unfortunately, you'd rather believe whatever idiotic thing those who get their information from YouTube and Breitbart feed you.


Coming in twenty forth world wide doesn’t sound like we’re doing all that great. Ya, we’re still ahead of Zimbabwe but 24th?? Really!?!


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> "Competition" where public schools are required to accept everyone and private schools can cherry pick is not competition.
> "Competition" where public schools are required to provide all necessary services and private schools are not is not competition.
> "Competition" where private schools can operate under special rules while public schools can't is not competition.
> 
> ...


Perhaps if there were a voucher system, there would be more private/charter schools and some (if not most) would end up supplying the services you are concerned they do not "have" to provide right now.

Perhaps competition would be good for the public school as well, as the public school system would have to compete for customers and hopefully become a better place for students in the process. 

It feels as though we are looking out for the interest of the public school system above the interest of the students in these arguments.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Mish said:


> Perhaps if there were a voucher system, there would be more private/charter schools and some (if not most) would end up supplying the services you are concerned they do not "have" to provide right now.
> 
> Perhaps competition would be good for the public school as well, as the public school system would have to compete for customers and hopefully become a better place for students in the process.
> 
> It feels as though we are looking out for the interest of the public school system above the interest of the students in these arguments.


Perhaps we should put some requirements on the private schools before we even think about providing them with public money. Crossing your fingers and hoping they do the right thing is not much of a plan.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> "Competition" where public schools are required to accept everyone and private schools can cherry pick is not competition.
> "Competition" where public schools are required to provide all necessary services and private schools are not is not competition.
> "Competition" where private schools can operate under special rules while public schools can't is not competition.
> 
> ...


They're not afraid of anything. Just not heavily funded with the wasteful spending habits of the government. 

Why are public schools afraid of losing their monopoly?

How about we just see what the tax payers want.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Perhaps we should put some requirements on the private schools before we even think about providing them with public money. *Crossing your fingers and hoping they do the right thing is not much of a plan*.


I agree. It doesn't work with public schools.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Now pay attention please -
> No one on this forum is buying your product.
> We do not live in a vacuum. Our experiences are first hand and sometimes thru the same system that pays you to trumpet for them.
> Telling people that their experiences are lies and myths is well, sort of why you aren't trustworthy.
> Your a pet rock salesman talking to people who breaks rocks for a living.


I present research and the law. Which are immediately discounted from your crowd because it doesn't fit with your beliefs.
I present the facts behind the YouTube clips posted. Which are immediately discounted from your crowd because it doesn't fit with your beliefs.
I present first hand knowledge and experience. Which are immediately discounted from your crowd because it doesn't fit with your beliefs.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

At the same time, the shouldn't be required to do everything the way public schools do. That would defeat the purpose.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> They're not afraid of anything.


If that is true, which I doubt, then you should be in support of requiring private schools to give up their special rules in order to obtain public funding.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> I present research and the law. Which are immediately discounted from your crowd because it doesn't fit with your beliefs.
> I present the facts behind the YouTube clips posted. Which are immediately discounted from your crowd because it doesn't fit with your beliefs.
> I present first hand knowledge and experience. Which are immediately discounted from your crowd because it doesn't fit with your beliefs.


You, like everyone else, present a bias opinion. Your point of view is that of a union public school teacher. Mine is that of a parent who only cares about the best interests of their children.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> At the same time, the shouldn't be required to do everything the way public schools do. That would defeat the purpose.


I didn't say "do everything the way public schools do". They are welcome to have their own teaching methods, their own materials, their own curriculum, etc.

I said they should be required to accept all students & not cherry pick. Why should they receive public funding if they are not open to the children of ALL the public? 

I said they should have to provide all the services that students require. That includes special education, ELL, academic and behavioral interventions, etc. Why should they receive public funding and still be able to use the resources of the public schools or refuse to provide services at all?

I said they should have to provide students with due process rights. Why should they receive public funding if they refuse to do so?


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Perhaps we should put some requirements on the private schools before we even think about providing them with public money. Crossing your fingers and hoping they do the right thing is not much of a plan.


Some states already do. And yet the teachers unions fight them tooth and nail as the pop up.

Years ago, there was a charter school in my area that catered to special needs children. I was hoping to get my special needs child into that charter as the public school system was failing her miserably, and the parents I knew with students in the charter were absolutely thrilled with the outcomes they were seeing. The charter ended up closing down the year she would have qualified to go there, and we were told it was because the local school district (read, teachers union) had finally been successful in petitioning the state to close it. The reasons for that I do not know and can only guess, but it seems continuing their monopoly on the local SPED money might have had something to do with it based on what a SPED teacher in the public system told me when I asked (BTW, said SPED teacher was spectacular, but her hands were tied by the system that keeps being defended here).

That was the year I pulled her to homeschool completely. I had no other options at that point.

That's what a lot of parents are facing, and why I (from my many decades as a student and as a parent of multiple students, also throwing in there that I come from a family with a LOT of teachers in it) feel that the public school system either needs to change drastically or there needs to be more options for people who need those options. On all ends of the spectrum.

There are a lot of students that are being failed by this system, so the system either needs to change or allow for other systems to evolve that actually help the students more than they help the bureaucrats in the system.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Perhaps we should put some requirements on the private schools before we even think about providing them with public money. Crossing your fingers and hoping they do the right thing is not much of a plan.


Why cant we use public funds to compensate them for the services they do provide? I’m also fairly sure there are already quite a few requirements in place.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> If that is true, which I doubt, then you should be in support of requiring private schools to give up their special rules in order to obtain public funding.


These schools will do fine without public funding. Just like grocery stores would get by without food stamps. But... it's not the schools or stores that need the help.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> These schools will do fine without public funding. Just like grocery stores would get by without food stamps. But... it's not the schools or stores that need the help.


As expected, a dodge around the questions.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> I present Teacher's Union dogma. Which are immediately discounted from your crowd because it doesn't fit with your experiences.
> I present the facts behind the YouTube clips posted. Which are immediately discounted from your crowd because it doesn't fit with your experiences.
> I present first hand talking points. Which are immediately discounted from your crowd because it doesn't fit with your experiences.


Oopsy, but I had to get that red pen out again.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> If that is true, which I doubt, then you should be in support of requiring private schools to give up their special rules in order to obtain public funding.


Maybe I missed something....



SLFarmMI said:


> As expected, a dodge around the questions.


... exactly what question did I dodge?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

kinderfeld said:


> Maybe I missed something....
> 
> 
> ... exactly what question did I dodge?


Something about “special rules” I think. Different isn’t special though. No reason private schools can’t and shouldn’t get some compensation from public funds for the services they provide.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> Maybe I missed something....
> 
> 
> ... exactly what question did I dodge?


You dodged, as you always do, the questions posed in post #68.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Something about “special rules” I think. Different isn’t special though. No reason private schools can’t and shouldn’t get some compensation from public funds for the services they provide.


If they cherry pick students, they shouldn't get public funding. 
If they do not provide all required services, they shouldn't get public funding. 
If they deny due process rights to students, they shouldn't get public funding.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Oopsy, but I had to get that red pen out again.


 You mean "oopsy" you had to continue making crap up.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> If they cherry pick students, they shouldn't get public funding.
> If they do not provide all required services, they shouldn't get public funding.
> If they deny due process rights to students, they shouldn't get public funding.


Says who.... and more importantly why not?


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Evons hubby said:


> Says who.... and more importantly why not?


Who? Those who create the demand for an alternative.

Why? They don't want the competition.

In the end, it's not their money and it's none of their business.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why should they receive public funding if they refuse to do so?


Because they're not receiving funding for services that they don't provide.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> Who? Those who create the demand for an alternative.
> 
> Why? They don't want the competition.
> 
> In the end, it's not their money and it's none of their business.


You know, you keep harping on "competition" yet you promote not requiring private schools to compete.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

kinderfeld said:


> Who? Those who create the demand for an alternative.
> 
> Why? They don't want the competition.
> 
> In the end, it's not their money and it's none of their business.


But some here seem to think it’s their money and theirs alone! To me it’s the peoples money for the purpose of educating our kids. Let’s give it to those who provide education, be it public, private, or homeschool.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> Because they're not receiving funding for services that they don't provide.


Why should they not have to provide special education services, for example, if they are receiving public funding? Why should the public school district have to provide special education services to students enrolled in private schools if those private schools are receiving public funding?


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> You know, you keep harping on "competition" yet you promote not requiring private schools to compete.


I promote giving parents the choice of where _their _child's education funding is spent.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> But some here seem to think it’s their money and theirs alone! To me it’s the peoples money for the purpose of educating our kids. Let’s give it to those who provide education, be it public, private, or homeschool.


Then let those private schools be required to open their doors to all students. Remember, it's "the peoples (sic) money for the purpose of educating our kids". Not just the kids that the private schools declares to be "worthy".

Let those private schools be required to provide special education services in accordance with the student's IEP. Remember, it's "the peoples (sic) money for the purpose of educating our kids". Not just the neurotypical kids. 

If you really it's "the peoples (sic) money for the purpose of educating our kids" then you shouldn't be in favor of providing private schools with public money unless those schools give up their special rules.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why should they not have to provide special education services, for example, if they are receiving public funding? Why should the public school district have to provide special education services to students enrolled in private schools if those private schools are receiving public funding?


Because public schools get paid for providing those services, and nobody is asking for payment to private schools for such service. Just for services that are provided.... like giving those students a quality education.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> I promote giving parents the choice of where _their _child's education funding is spent.


As long as the school determines their child to be "worthy". If not, tough luck. 

BTW, your education tax dollars are not set aside for your exclusive use any more than your military tax dollars are set aside to purchase yourself a personal soldier. Your argument does not hold water.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Because public schools get paid for providing those services, and nobody is asking for payment to private schools for such service. Just for services that are provided.... like giving those students a quality education.


And I am saying that, if private schools get public dollars, they should have to provide their own services. Just like the public schools do. If they are getting public dollars, there is no good reason why they shouldn't be required to provide all the services that the student needs.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why should they not have to provide special education services, for example, if they are receiving public funding?


Because they're not. A school voucher provides funding for the specific child it was issued to. Therefore, if they don't accept special needs children, they're not going to receive funding for them.




SLFarmMI said:


> Why should the public school district have to provide special education services to students enrolled in private schools if those private schools are receiving public funding?


Because they're services that public schools offer and receive funds for.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> As long as the school determines their child to be "worthy". If not, tough luck.


It's not for everyone.



SLFarmMI said:


> BTW, your education tax dollars are not set aside for your exclusive use any more than your military tax dollars are set aside to purchase yourself a personal soldier. Your argument does not hold water.


My argument is sound but your analogy is ridiculous.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> Because they're not. A school voucher provides funding for the specific child it was issued to. Therefore, if they don't accept special needs children, they're not going to receive funding for them.
> 
> 
> 
> Because they're services that public schools offer and receive funds for.


They should have no option to not accept special needs children if they are receiving any public funding. If the public schools don't have that option then the private schools should not either if they are going to receive public funding. Where's that "competition" you keep harping on? 

No, they are services that the public schools are required to provide to private schools. Let the private schools step up if they want public funding.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> It's not for everyone.
> 
> 
> My argument is sound but your analogy is ridiculous.


So your comment, "I promote giving parents the choice of where _their _child's education funding is spent" is false. If the private school deems your kid to be "unworthy" then it doesn't matter where you want the funding to be spent.

My analogy is sound. The taxes you pay for education are no more for your exclusive use than the taxes you pay for the military are for your exclusive use.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> They should have no option to not accept special needs children if they are receiving any public funding. If the public schools don't have that option then the private schools should not either if they are going to receive public funding. Where's that "competition" you keep harping on?


Public schools receive funds for the services you mentioned. Private schools don't. If all you pay for is an oil change don't expect a complete tune up.



SLFarmMI said:


> No, they are services that the public schools are required to provide to private schools. Let the private schools step up if they want public funding.


Again, they're not being paid for it. It's tuition assistance not free public education.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Why are you so eager for private schools to make public schools look bad in all these other areas as well?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Then let those private schools be required to open their doors to all students. Remember, it's "the peoples (sic) money for the purpose of educating our kids". Not just the kids that the private schools declares to be "worthy".
> 
> Let those private schools be required to provide special education services in accordance with the student's IEP. Remember, it's "the peoples (sic) money for the purpose of educating our kids". Not just the neurotypical kids.
> 
> If you really it's "the peoples (sic) money for the purpose of educating our kids" then you shouldn't be in favor of providing private schools with public money unless those schools give up their special rules.





SLFarmMI said:


> As long as the school determines their child to be "worthy". If not, tough luck.
> 
> BTW, your education tax dollars are not set aside for your exclusive use any more than your military tax dollars are set aside to purchase yourself a personal soldier. Your argument does not hold water.


nope, our tax dollars are set aside to educate kids... all kids! Not just the ones in public schools. Not just special needs kids. Not just ell kids. All kids, kids in public schools, private schools, even kids being taught at home. How about sharing?


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

SLFarmMI said:


> Contrary to the misleading title of this thread, the legislation is not about reducing qualifications. It authorizes the substitution of coursework for 2 tests that have been previously required to enter the teacher certification program. Candidates still have to be qualified to enter the program. Candidates still have to pass the coursework within the teacher education program and they still have to take the other required standardized tests. I wonder if the OP even read the linked article before starting yet another teacher bashing thread.


When went to school the person could teach one year right out of H.S. and then teach college for one year and back to college until they got there teaching degree.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

101pigs said:


> When went to school the person could teach one year right out of H.S. and then teach college for one year and back to college until they got there teaching degree.


My dear old dad taught school for a couple years... not overly qualified as he didn’t finish eighth grade. Students loved him, administration loved him. He taught shop class and knew his berries. All was well until one of the other teachers found out and whined to the teachers union. Kinda like one of our posters here might do.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> nope, our tax dollars are set aside to educate kids... all kids! Not just the ones in public schools. Not just special needs kids. Not just ell kids. All kids, kids in public schools, private schools, even kids being taught at home. How about sharing?


How about giving up the special rules? How about making the private schools open up to all kids, not just the ones they declare "worthy"?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> How about giving up the special rules? How about making the private schools open up to all kids, not just the ones they declare "worthy"?


Different isn’t “special”. Private schools teach taxpayers kids. They should get taxpayers dollars.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> Why are you so eager for private schools to make public schools look bad in all these other areas as well?


That's the claim you want to make but it appears you are terrified that the private schools that you think are so great are really not. Why are you so afraid to make the private schools open up to all students? Are you that afraid that your illusion about the private schools will evaporate if they have to take on any and all students?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Different isn’t “special”. Private schools teach taxpayers kids. They should get taxpayers dollars.


When you can say to a parent that their kid is unworthy of attendance, that is a special rule. When you can say to a parent that, even though their kid needs an extra service, that's too darn bad, that is a special rule. When you can deny basic due process rights to students, that is a special rule. They should not get one cent of taxpayer money if they can't give up those special rules.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

T


SLFarmMI said:


> That's the claim you want to make but it appears you are terrified that the private schools that you think are so great are really not. Why are you so afraid to make the private schools open up to all students? Are you that afraid that your illusion about the private schools will evaporate if they have to take on any and all students?


they’d most likely be overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of students if every concerned parent moved their kids.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> When you can say to a parent that their kid is unworthy of attendance, that is a special rule. When you can say to a parent that, even though their kid needs an extra service, that's too darn bad, that is a special rule. When you can deny basic due process rights to students, that is a special rule. They should not get one cent of taxpayer money if they can't give up those special rules.


Again, different is NOT special.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> T
> they’d most likely be overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of students if every concerned parent moved their kids.


Not true but so what? You don't seem to care when the public schools are overcrowded.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Do you even know what this means


SLFarmMI said:


> they shouldn't get public funding


You have no special claim on our money


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not true but so what? You don't seem to care when the public schools are overcrowded.


Of course I care. And pay more taxes to build larger schools!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Again, different is NOT special.


Again, your declaration that these are not special rules is incorrect. You made the statement that public education funds are for the education of all the public's children yet you want to allow private schools to receive public funds while excluding any child they don't want. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> Do you know what this even means


All day man! Must be time and a half.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Do you even know what this means
> 
> 
> You have no special claim on our money


I know precisely what it means. Do you? Highly unlikely since you know so little about education. 

It isn't your money for your exclusive use once it leaves your checkbook and goes into the general fund. Tell me, which books in the public library are for your exclusive use since your taxes go to support the library? How about the Air Force? Which part of which plane is for your exclusive use since it's your tax money? Your argument doesn't hold water.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Again, your declaration that these are not special rules is incorrect. You made the statement that public education funds are for the education of all the public's children yet you want to allow private schools to receive public funds while excluding any child they don't want. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


I only want them to be fairly compensated for the services they actually provide to the students they teach.... is that too much to ask?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I only want them to be fairly compensated for the services they actually provide to the students they teach.... is that too much to ask?


And I want them to be required to accept all students, provide all services and provide due process rights to students if they are being compensated with taxpayer funds.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> I know precisely what it means. Do you? Highly unlikely since you know so little about education.
> 
> It isn't your money for your exclusive use once it leaves your checkbook and goes into the general fund. Tell me, which books in the public library are for your exclusive use since your taxes go to support the library? How about the Air Force? Which part of which plane is for your exclusive use since it's your tax money? Your argument doesn't hold water.


If my kids are in school I should have full rights as to how it is spent. That is what wrong with your premise. It sure is not your money, it is not the teachers union's money, or even the state's money. You have an entitlement mentality and not a customer service attitude. You personify everything wrong with public education.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> And I want them to be required to accept all students, provide all services and provide due process rights to students if they are being compensated with taxpayer funds.


You just made up the premise that they would refuse students. The open market responds to needs, unlike the public education system which is solely focused on self perpetuation.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> If my kids are in school I should have full rights as to how it is spent. That is what wrong with your premise. It sure is not your money, it is not the teachers union's money, or even the state's money. You have an entitlement mentality and not a customer service attitude. You personify everything wrong with public education.


The entitlement mentality is coming from you. No requirements for the private school, but gimme, gimme, gimme.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> You just made up the premise that they would refuse students. The open market responds to needs, unlike the public education system which is solely focused on self perpetuation.


BS. Private schools can, and do, refuse students. Yet another thing about education that you don't know.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Again, your declaration that these are not special rules is incorrect. You made the statement that public education funds are for the education of all the public's children yet you want to allow private schools to receive public funds while excluding any child they don't want. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


I only want them to be fairly compensated for the services they actually provide to the students they teach.... is that too much to ask?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> The entitlement mentality is coming from you. No requirements for the private school, but gimme, gimme, gimme.


There is a requirement for school. You think that means public school. That, hopefully will change. You guys can't keep doing a crappy job and expect to stay in control.. People are fed up with your crap.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> BS. Private schools can, and do, refuse students. Yet another thing about education that you don't know.


Assuming they can refuse them (I don't trust anything you say), but if the market is there they will be happy to take them.

And too, we could just let all those refused students be serviced by public schools. You give us no choice, we give you no choice. You have to take all comers. Fine with me. Then you can quite complaining about overcrowding when your service audience drops by 80%


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> That, hopefully will change. You guys can't keep doing a crappy job and expect to stay in control.. People are fed up with your crap.


Someone that stays online all day trying to convince folks that know better is about all you need to see.
The system is changing. Slowly but it is changing. There would be no need for the schills to so desperately sling the misinformation if it were not.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> And too, we could just let all those refused students be serviced by public schools. You give us no choice, we give you no choice. You have to take all comers. Fine with me. Then you can quite complaining about overcrowding when your service audience drops by 80%


There are a lot of great stories to be shared from disadvantaged kids who got a second chance in non public schools. They are happening more and more and when you take a shower from listening to the stew she is slinging you should look a few up. I know numerous examples personally.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Assuming they can refuse them (I don't trust anything you say), but if the market is there they will be happy to take them.


BS. Private schools can and do deny entry to whomever they wish. They will continue to do so until there is legislation banning them from the practice. And there should be not one nickel of public funding going their way unless and until they are required to take all comers. 



HDRider said:


> And too, we could just let all those refused students be serviced by public schools. You give us no choice, we give you no choice. You have to take all comers. Fine with me. Then you can quite complaining about overcrowding when your service audience drops by 80%


When are you going to stop pushing the lie that parents have no choices about where their kids go to school? 



GTX63 said:


> Someone that stays online all day trying to convince folks that know better is about all you need to see.
> The system is changing. Slowly but it is changing. There would be no need for the schills to so desperately sling the misinformation if it were not.


The only shill slinging misinformation is the one who posted the OP.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I only want them to be fairly compensated for the services they actually provide to the students they teach.... is that too much to ask?


And, again, I want them to have to take all students, provide all services and provide due process to students before receiving one cent of public money. I don't think that is too much to ask.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> BS. Private schools can and do deny entry to whomever they wish. They will continue to do so until there is legislation banning them from the practice. And there should be not one nickel of public funding going their way unless and until they are required to take all comers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have wasted too much time with your lies and misinformation.

Carry on. 

You are a lost cause, and it appears public education is becoming one, at least in many places. Our standing in the world suffers because of your poor performance and allegiance to a failed system.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> And, again, I want them to have to take all students, provide all services and provide due process to students before receiving one cent of public money. I don't think that is too much to ask.


You ask a lot of someone you refuse to pay “one cent”. They already provide a very valuable service, let’s pay them for that before we make further demands.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> You ask a lot of someone you refuse to pay “one thin dime”. They already provide a very valuable service, let’s pay them for that before we make further demands.


I am not asking one thing of them that the public schools are not already doing and have been doing for decades. The private schools can step up and do the same if they want public funding.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> I am not asking one thing of them that the public schools are not already doing and have been doing for decades. The private schools can step up and do the same if they want public funding.


You are so greedy, won’t pay a plumber till you can make him fix your roof too!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> I have wasted too much time with your lies and misinformation.
> 
> Carry on.
> 
> You are a lost cause, and it appears public education is becoming one, at least in many places. Our standing in the world suffers because of your poor performance and allegiance to a failed system.


The lies and misinformation are coming from you. I will continue to call you on it every time that you post lies and misinformation. I don't care if you don't like being called on your lies.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> You are so greedy, won’t pay a plumber till you can make him fix your roof too!


The ones being greedy are the ones demanding public funds while refusing to grant entry to all the public's children. The ones being greedy are the ones demanding public funds while refusing to provide services. Why do you support greed? Why are you so afraid of requiring the private schools to grant entry to all students, to provide all the services that those students require and to provide due process rights to students?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> The lies and misinformation are coming from you. I will continue to call you on it every time that you post lies and misinformation. I don't care if you don't like being called on your lies.


Wanna call me on my truth while your at it? 24th In world wide rankings, teachers insisting 87 years is over 2 centuries? Get real... our public education system is a mess no matter how much the unions scream different!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> The ones being greedy are the ones demanding public funds while refusing to grant entry to all the public's children. The ones being greedy are the ones demanding public funds while refusing to provide services. Why do you support greed? Why are you so afraid of requiring the private schools to grant entry to all students, to provide all the services that those students require and to provide due process rights to students?


Because not all students require those services.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Because not all students require those services.


So what? You require that public schools provide them so, if they want public money, private schools can too.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> So what? You require that public schools provide them so, if they want public money, private schools can too.


Nope, I don’t require public schools to do anything but teach our kids to read, write, do simple arithmetic and some honest history.... just exactly like the private schools do.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

HDRider said:


> Keep making the testing easier so less qualified people are allowed to teach.


Quite a variety of jobs have practiced making the test easier and is a old and well established process when equity is the goal.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> The lies and misinformation are coming from you. I will continue to call you on it every time that you post lies and misinformation. I don't care if you don't like being called on your lies.


I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "lies".


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> So what? You require that public schools provide them so, if they want public money, private schools can too.


Even if you are becoming a bit cringy, if you could put the same energy into making kids better students that you do propping up your reality and expecting others to sing along, it might be a good thing.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Even if you are becoming a bit cringy, if you could put the same energy into making kids better students that you do propping up your reality and expecting others to sing along, it might be a good thing.


It might be a good thing if you'd put the same energy into finding out facts instead of pushing the anti-education agenda.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> They should have no option to not accept special needs children if they are receiving any public funding. If the public schools don't have that option then the private schools should not either if they are going to receive public funding. Where's that "competition" you keep harping on?
> 
> No, they are services that the public schools are required to provide to private schools. Let the private schools step up if they want public funding.


Generally speaking private business has never operated under the same conditions or requirements as government business. No reason for schools to be any different and receive special treatment. Keep in mind its also why the government subcontracts out most of what they need done to private business.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> Wanna call me on my truth while your at it? 24th In world wide rankings, teachers insisting 87 years is over 2 centuries? Get real... our public education system is a mess no matter how much the unions scream different!


Sigh, this has all been rehashed before. Public schools in the United States generally suck. 
There are good ones; certainly not enough to hold and maintain the current level of suck. 
The system sucks when ranked. The inner city schools suck more. The graduation rates suck. The literacy of students passed thru the system suck. The level of some teachers who are allowed to be protected in the system suck. The unions and boards that suck the futures from our children suck.
There are individual schools, teachers, and programs that rise above the suck, which reveals again, that the collective is a failure and also is part of the suck.
Stooges that stand on their crate and scream foolishness for bennies are fools and should not be allowed to have any care or control over other people's kids.
Regarding the pro public education sycophant, there has been so little said about the number 1 priority, children, that it is sickenly obvious that alternatives are needed so they are no longer given exposure to young minds. No parent wants to listen to an educator drone endlessly about everything but the children.
The alternatives will come and these folks will pass from the majority, to just functioning as the safety net for those who don't care what happens to education as long as someone else does it for them. 
They will be the basement mop and bottle washers for a system that has no where to go but up.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Redlands Okie said:


> Quite a variety of jobs have practiced making the test easier and is a old and well established process when equity is the goal.


And I'll bet you know what is sacrificed as a result.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Generally speaking private business has never operated under the same conditions or requirements as government business. No reason for schools to be any different and receive special treatment. Keep in mind its also why the government subcontracts out most of what they need done to private business.


There's no good reason to provide private schools with public money and allow them to reject students, to not provide special education services or to deny basic due process rights to students.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> Nope, I don’t require public schools to do anything but teach our kids to read, write, do simple arithmetic and some honest history.... just exactly like the private schools do.


Too many schools have failed to do a single thing that you mentioned.
They are allowed to continue and kids just get pushed thru.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Sigh, this has all been rehashed before. Public schools in the United States generally suck.
> There are good ones; certainly not enough to hold and maintain the current level of suck.
> The system sucks when ranked. The inner city schools suck more. The graduation rates suck. The literacy of students passed thru the system suck. The level of some teachers who are allowed to be protected in the system suck. The unions and boards that suck the futures from our children suck.
> There are individual schools, teachers, and programs that rise above the suck, which reveals again, that the collective is a failure and also is part of the suck.
> ...


Ah, the old lie that only the voucher pushers care about the children. I was wondering when that old chestnut would come up.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> You are so greedy, won’t pay a plumber till you can make him fix your roof too!


It is spelled f e a r.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> There's no good reason to provide private schools with public money and allow them to reject students, to not provide special education services or to deny basic due process rights to students.


It’s doubtful that there is one single special education service that is not available at a private school. There would be even more private schools that handle special needs if the funding was available. It’s just plain basic business.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> It is spelled f e a r.


Yep, the voucher pushers are terrified that the illusion of their supposedly superior private schools will vanish like a fart in the wind if they had to stop accepting all students and provide all services. It's just so much easier to maintain the illusion if their schools are allowed to cherry pick students and deny services.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> It’s doubtful that there is one single special education service that is not available at a private school. There would be even more private schools that handle special needs if the funding was available. It’s just plain basic business.


There is not one single private school that is mandated to provide any special education service. And your belief that, if they are provided public funding, that private schools will be lining up to provide those services is naive at best. They will continue to use the services from the public schools unless they are mandated to do otherwise. That's plain basic business.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

De


SLFarmMI said:


> Yep, the voucher pushers are terrified that the illusion of their supposedly superior private schools will vanish like a fart in the wind if they had to stop accepting all students and provide all services. It's just so much easier to maintain the illusion if their schools are allowed to cherry pick students and deny services.


Dear dear woman. 
It is only about the children.
Not students or numbers.
Focus.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nope, money talks.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Best advertisement for alternatives to public school.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> De
> 
> 
> Dear dear woman.
> ...


Shove your condescension.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Nope, money talks.


Yep, and if the private schools can continue to get special education services from the public schools and receive public funding that is exactly what they are going to do.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You would have found more common ground early on if you would have pointed to those little ones as the primary reason for teaching rather than everything but.
Too bad for you, but it helps to see what matters.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> You would have found more common ground early on if you would have pointed to those little ones as the primary reason for teaching rather than everything but.
> Too bad for you, but it helps to see what matters.


No, I would have found "common ground" if I had mindlessly agreed to whatever drivel your crowd was spouting about education regardless of what the truth is.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

All day rage isn't healthy for anyone.
Netflix or a Snickers might be a good thing for you right now.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The truth is that the kids matter first.
You either are so angry you can't admit it or you never believed.
Too bad.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> All day rage isn't healthy for anyone.
> Netflix or a Snickers might be a good thing for you right now.


Again, shove your condescension. 



GTX63 said:


> The truth is that the kids matter first.
> You either are so angry you can't admit it or you never believed.
> Too bad.


The truth is that it is certainly not your anti-education crowd that believes "kids matter first".


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Your truth doesn't seem to focus much on the point of education does it?
Anger isn't a good tool for making rational posts.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Your truth doesn't seem to focus much on the point of education does it?
> Anger isn't a good tool for making rational posts.


BS.

I'm still waiting for a good reason why private schools should be provided with public funds while still being allowed to reject students, not provide all required services and deny students basic due process rights. "Because we feel like it" is not a good reason.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Don't stay up too late for that answer.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Kids like this deserve better. You seem to be struggling with remembering that. Ah well, as long as there is a 1st and 15th of the month and direct deposit after 65.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Don't stay up too late for that answer.


As expected, you've got nothing. Maybe it's time for you to realize that your position of providing private schools with public funding while allowing them to reject students, deny services and deny rights is wrong.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I wonder if this young man is struggling to learn or just his expression while reading your posts, lol.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Kids like this deserve better. You seem to be struggling with remembering that. Ah well, as long as there is a 1st and 15th of the month and direct deposit after 65.
> View attachment 98711


You seem to be struggling with remembering that providing private schools with public funds while allowing those schools to cherry pick students and deny services will do nothing for students.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> I wonder if this young man is struggling to learn or just his expression while reading your posts, lol.
> View attachment 98712


If he is struggling to learn, odds are he won't be one of the cherry picked students by those private schools you want to provide public funds to.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Remember, it is about their future, not yours, or the unions or your boards.
Wasn't that one of the first things you were taught?
Surely your education didn't fail you.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Remember, it is about their future, not yours, or the unions or your boards.
> Wasn't that one of the first things you were taught?
> Surely your education didn't fail you.
> View attachment 98713


And, yet, you continue to prove that you don't give a crap about any of them. You can post as many pictures as you like with as many snarky, condescending comments as you like but it doesn't change the truth that it is just plain wrong to provide public funds to private schools while allowing those schools to reject students, deny services and deny rights.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Ouch, that isn't pretty.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Ouch, that isn't pretty.
> View attachment 98714


Another swing and a miss on your part.


https://cepa.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/chicago%20public%20school%20test%20scores%202009-2014.pdf



Interesting how you are doing everything you can to deflect from the reality that you can't defend the idea of giving public funding to private schools while allowing those schools to reject students, deny services and deny rights.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

The algorithm has trouble with photos.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

A loved one is needed for an intervention.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> BS.
> 
> I'm still waiting for a good reason why private schools should be provided with public funds while still being allowed to reject students, not provide all required services and deny students basic due process rights. "Because we feel like it" is not a good reason.


Because the parents need the pubic funds so as to be able to afford to send their children to a school that they think is better suited for their child.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> BS.
> 
> I'm still waiting for a good reason why private schools should be provided with public funds while still being allowed to reject students, not provide all required services and deny students basic due process rights. "Because we feel like it" is not a good reason.


Because they do provide a much needed service to many children.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Because the parents need the pubic funds so as to be able to afford to send their children to a school that they think is better suited for their child.


"Because we need and want the money" is not a good reason to provide public money to private schools while continuing to allow those schools to reject students and deny services. Your argument that it allows parents to send their children to a school that is better suited doesn't hold water while that same school is allowed to say to another parent that their kid can't attend. 



Evons hubby said:


> Because they do provide a much needed service to many children.


"We only reject SOME students and we provide a few services" is not a good reason to provide public money to private schools while continuing to allow those schools to reject students and deny services.

Either the schools accept all and provide all required services or they don't need public funds.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> A loved one is needed for an intervention.


Still unable to defend your position and hiding behind snarky, condescending comments I see.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

HDRider said:


> If my kids are in school I should have full rights as to how it is spent. That is what wrong with your premise. It sure is not your money, it is not the teachers union's money, or even the state's money. You have an entitlement mentality and not a customer service attitude. You personify everything wrong with public education.


I think that about sums it up.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> "We only reject SOME students and we provide a few services" is not a good reason to provide public money to private schools while continuing to allow those schools to reject students and deny services.


But...it IS a good reason to compensate them for services that ARE provided. Again, it's not for everyone. Neither is public school.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Still unable to defend your position and hiding behind snarky, condescending comments I see.


Hiro may be on to something.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> But...it IS a good reason to compensate them for services that ARE provided. Again, it's not for everyone. Neither is public school.


No, it is not. It is completely wrong to provide public funds to a private school while allowing that school to say to a parent, "Your kid is unworthy of attendance". 

You keep saying "it's not for everyone" but you miss the relevant point that public schools are open to all who wish to attend. If private schools want public money then they should be required to do the same.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Hiro may be on to something.
> View attachment 98727


Oh, look, another idiotic post from you. It's just amazing the lengths you will go to to avoid admitting that you can't defend your position.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Being angry morning and night is not a healthy way to live.
Fresh plums and maybe a teaspoon of Miralax would do wonders for a disposition.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> Oh, look, another idiotic post from you. It's just amazing the lengths you will go to to avoid admitting that you can't defend your position.


Thank goodness for the brave young white hats.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Being angry morning and night is not a healthy way to live.
> Fresh plums and maybe a teaspoon of Miralax would do wonders for a disposition.


I've lost count of how many idiotic posts you've made in an effort to hide the fact that you can't defend your position. What is it now, 10 or 12? But, hey, if you want to continue to make yourself look like a fool, knock yourself out.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Breathe. It is just a forum dear. Try one of the other threads for a bit or do the plum thingy.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Breathe. It is just a forum dear. Try one of the other threads for a bit or do the plum thingy.


I am not your "dear". Once again, you can take your condescension and shove it some place dark and smelly.

It is evident to everyone that you can't defend your position so you resort to rude, condescending remarks.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

For those who claim private schools don’t work with or teach kids with special needs. Try google!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> "Because we need and want the money" is not a good reason to provide public money to private schools while continuing to allow those schools to reject students and deny services. Your argument that it allows parents to send their children to a school that is better suited doesn't hold water while that same school is allowed to say to another parent that their kid can't attend.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which students are these that you claim private schools reject? The private school our son attended did not seem to reject anyone.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, it is not. It is completely wrong to provide public funds to a private school while allowing that school to say to a parent, "Your kid is unworthy of attendance".


In which case they would receive nothing.




SLFarmMI said:


> You keep saying "it's not for everyone" but you miss the relevant point that public schools are open to all who wish to attend.


And private schools are not open to everyone.
It's a defining characteristic.



SLFarmMI said:


> If private schools want public money then they should be required to do the same.


It's the parents of the students who want the funds for their kids education. Which is the intended purpose. Private schools shouldn't have to accept it with red tape and requirements based upon how public schools are run. They should just be compensated for what they do. No more, no less. Keep in mind, for every student they take off your hands they free up resources for someone else.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Evons hubby said:


> Which students are these that you claim private schools reject? The private school our son attended did not seem to reject anyone.


There's this bizarre practice of private schools turning away students with special needs that the school is not equipped or qualified to accommodate. Although, there are private institutions that are.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

kinderfeld said:


> There's this bizarre practice of private schools turning away students with special needs that the school is not equipped or qualified to accommodate. Although, there are private institutions that are.


It wouldn’t surprise me if public schools didn’t reject some students for the same reasons.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Which students are these that you claim private schools reject? The private school our son attended did not seem to reject anyone.


I don't even have to go beyond your own state to find examples of private schools that reject students. 
Highlands Latin School Acceptance rate 48%
The Lexington School Acceptance rate 65%
Oakdale Christian Academy Acceptance rate 75%

The national average acceptance rate for private school is 85%. So let's lay to rest the myth that private schools do not reject students because they most assuredly do.




Evons hubby said:


> It wouldn’t surprise me if public schools didn’t reject some students for the same reasons.


It should surprise you because that would be illegal.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> I don't even have to go beyond your own state to find examples of private schools that reject students.
> Highlands Latin School Acceptance rate 48%
> The Lexington School Acceptance rate 65%
> Oakdale Christian Academy Acceptance rate 75%
> ...


Maybe, but how many coneheads are in your school?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> In which case they would receive nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Private schools should not be able to receive public funds if they reject students. If you want to maintain your elitist club, then you shouldn't get public funding to do so. 




kinderfeld said:


> There's this bizarre practice of private schools turning away students with special needs that the school is not equipped or qualified to accommodate. Although, there are private institutions that are.


And yet, you require public schools to take everyone regardless of needs or whether the school is equipped to accommodate those needs.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> For those who claim private schools don’t work with or teach kids with special needs. Try google!


No one claimed that there are private schools that do not CHOOSE to work with students with special needs. They are not REQUIRED to do so under the law and most use the resources of the PUBLIC schools if they even allow students with special needs to enroll. Try reading comprehension.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> No one claimed that there are private schools that do not CHOOSE to work with students with special needs. They are not REQUIRED to do so under the law and most use the resources of the PUBLIC schools if they even allow students with special needs to enroll. Try reading comprehension.


Try getting off your pedestal and recognize that private schools should be getting tax dollars for any student they teach. We the taxpayers pay taxes to educate everyone’s kids, not just those in public school.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

That would be outside of her TOS.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> That would be outside of her TOS.


TOS? Totally obstinate stance?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I love quoting our old friend.
_"SSDD.
Patterns never change."_


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> I love quoting our old friend.
> _"SSDD.
> Patterns never change."_


Yup!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Try getting off your pedestal and recognize that private schools should be getting tax dollars for any student they teach. We the taxpayers pay taxes to educate everyone’s kids, not just those in public school.


If private schools are not open to the children of all the public, then they shouldn't be able to dip into those public funds. Open to all or fund your elitist club on your own.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> If private schools are not open to the children of all the public, then they shouldn't be able to dip into those public funds. Open to all or fund your elitist club on your own.


Where would that leave public schools when they have students they won’t accept? You know, those poor kids with special needs beyond the normal scope of public schools.








Most states fail education obligations to special needs students: So, what else is new?


For children with disabilities, a public school education should not be this difficult to have access to.



www.usatoday.com


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Evons hubby said:


> Where would that leave public schools when they have students they won’t accept? You know, those poor kids with special needs beyond the normal scope of public schools.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well... they should have there public funding taken away.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

kinderfeld said:


> Well... they should have there public funding taken away.


Seems that way.... if you subscribe to one teachers theory.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Where would that leave public schools when they have students they won’t accept? You know, those poor kids with special needs beyond the normal scope of public schools.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First of all, public schools do not refuse to accept students with special needs. Even your linked opinion piece does not make that claim.

Second, the facts do not support your opinion piece. Contrary to the claim made in your article, according to data from the Department of Education, only NY and VT were assessed as being in need of intervention to meet the requirements under IDEA. Those are pretty good results for implementation of legislation that is not and has never been funded as promised when the legislation was passed. 14% funding is much different than the 40% that was promised. It seems your opinion piece left that little tidbit out. I wonder why. And loss of funding is a consequence that the Department of Ed can implement.

So, yet again, you don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> First of all, public schools do not refuse to accept students with special needs. Even your linked opinion piece does not make that claim.
> 
> Second, the facts do not support your opinion piece. Contrary to the claim made in your article, according to data from the Department of Education, only NY and VT were assessed as being in need of intervention to meet the requirements under IDEA. Those are pretty good results for implementation of legislation that is not and has never been funded as promised when the legislation was passed. 14% funding is much different than the 40% that was promised. It seems your opinion piece left that little tidbit out. I wonder why. And loss of funding is a consequence that the Department of Ed can implement.
> 
> So, yet again, you don't know what you are talking about.


But your claim that no students are ever turned away appears to be blown out of the water. And needing intervention not only tells us two states are failing badly, many others still aren’t meeting the standard minimums and “need assistance”. So again, you are either ill informed or simply blowing smoke.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I have a simple solution. Give every parent x amount of dollars to spend each year. (Don't actually give them money but control of it) Then have each class cost a certain amount for the year. Keep all the basic classes for graduation and let them choose the electives. Money comes out until it's done. If you want more then pay for more out of pocket. 

That way teachers get paid. Classes are suited for each child and parent. Special needs kids have their curriculum. Everyone gets a say.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> But your claim that no students are ever turned away appears to be blown out of the water. And needing intervention not only tells us two states are failing badly, many others still aren’t meeting the standard minimums and “need assistance”. So again, you are either ill informed or simply blowing smoke.


Not even close. Public schools don't turn away students despite your desire for it to be true so you can justify your support of providing public money to private schools while allowing them to continue to reject students.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Many public schools would be doing kids a favor by turning them away.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> I have a simple solution. Give every parent x amount of dollars to spend each year. (Don't actually give them money but control of it) Then have each class cost a certain amount for the year. Keep all the basic classes for graduation and let them choose the electives. Money comes out until it's done. If you want more then pay for more out of pocket.
> 
> That way teachers get paid. Classes are suited for each child and parent. Special needs kids have their curriculum. Everyone gets a say.


Your idea won't ever happen at once because It is a plan based on the welfare of children and benefits parents and the forces that be loathe it. You may as well throw water on a demon before you expect the government and education parasites to surrender an ounce of control. They will both react the same.
You are speaking for the good of others, while they care primarily for themselves. That is why threads like this won't go anywhere. 
As long as you reason on the premise that the education unions share a similar ideal as you, you will continue to accept their double speak and lies that they are putting kids first.
The grassroots change that is occurring is from parents and localities rather than one sweeping reform.
It is sad that kids are being sacrificed to scumbags who play as concerned, but in spite of the woke curriculum and indoctrination that is happening, it won't be as widespread in a few years.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> "Because we need and want the money" is not a good reason to provide public money to private schools while continuing to allow those schools to reject students and deny services. Your argument that it allows parents to send their children to a school that is better suited doesn't hold water while that same school is allowed to say to another parent that their kid can't attend.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What one parent wants for their children does matter. If another parent child does not meet the requirements then thats just life. Get used to it. I highly suspect that the 2nd parent child, the unwanted one, would be accepted with glee, if the money to handle the student needs was available. Just as it is in government public schools.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, it is not. It is completely wrong to provide public funds to a private school while allowing that school to say to a parent, "Your kid is unworthy of attendance".
> 
> You keep saying "it's not for everyone" but you miss the relevant point that public schools are open to all who wish to attend. If private schools want public money then they should be required to do the same.


The most likely reason they are not wanted is that the school does not have the financial resources to provide for those needs. Give them the financial resources to handle the needs. Problem solved. 

Public schools are NOT open to all that wish to attend. The are open because its the law that they are open, its the law that they provide the service, which by the way the are paid to take care of. (Often times quite poorly.) It’s not because they want to, it’s not because it is the right thing to do. It’s because they HAVE to. So now that we know that all students education is covered, no matter what, why punish those that want a option and are willing to make the sacrifice in the family budget to cover the difference between the tax money and the private school cost.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> What one parent wants for their children does matter. If another parent child does not meet the requirements then thats just life. Get used to it. I highly suspect that the 2nd parent child, the unwanted one, would be accepted with glee, if the money to handle the student needs was available. Just as it is in government public schools.


I disagree. I don't believe we should be providing public funding to private schools if they are allowed to reject students. I highly suspect that, if they were provided public funds, the private schools will continue to cherry pick students.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Of course you do.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> The most likely reason they are not wanted is that the school does not have the financial resources to provide for those needs. Give them the financial resources to handle the needs. Problem solved.
> 
> Public schools are NOT open to all that wish to attend. The are open because its the law that they are open, its the law that they provide the service, which by the way the are paid to take care of. (Often times quite poorly.) It’s not because they want to, it’s not because it is the right thing to do. It’s because they HAVE to. So now that we know that all students education is covered, no matter what, why punish those that want a option and are willing to make the sacrifice in the family budget to cover the difference between the tax money and the private school cost.


The most likely reason is that they are not wanted is because the private schools want the easy students. Require them to take all. Problem solved.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Evons hubby said:


> It wouldn’t surprise me if public schools didn’t reject some students for the same reasons.


They cannot reject them officially I think. They can and do warehouse them and collect the fees they can, while moving them through the system. It’s well documented. Often times positive well defined results do not seem to be required.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> Private schools should not be able to receive public funds if they reject students. If you want to maintain your elitist club, then you shouldn't get public funding to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Public schools will take all, and the schools are required to accommodate those needs. If there is a problem then it seems the school administration and the teachers union should be made aware of the problem so they can make sure its fixed. Surely they are not being allowed to provide substandard service and results.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Public schools will take all, and the schools are required to accommodate those needs. If there is a problem then it seems the school administration and the teachers union should be made aware of the problem so they can make sure its fixed. Surely they are not being allowed to provide substandard service and results.


And, if they want public funding, the private schools should be required to take all and to accommodate those needs. It is just plain wrong to provide public funding to private schools while allowing them to continue to reject students and deny services.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> The most likely reason is that they are not wanted is because the private schools want the easy students. Require them to take all. Problem solved.


Provide the financial needs to do so. Problem solved.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Provide the financial needs to do so. Problem solved.


Not one nickel unless and until private schools are required to take everyone and provide all services. They aren't going to do so unless they are required to do so and we both know it.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Provide the money and lets see.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

What could go wrong, low scores and bad results ? Oops we already have that often times.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Provide the money and lets see.


Put the requirements in place first.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Press 1 for gas lighting
Press 2 for celebration parallax
Press 3 for opinion facts
Press 4 for childrens welfare and hold or leave a message


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Redlands Okie said:


> What could go wrong, low scores and bad results ? Oops we already have that often times.


It is called the public education suck.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not even close. Public schools don't turn away students despite your desire for it to be true so you can justify your support of providing public money to private schools while allowing them to continue to reject students.


Would you not agree that public schools do not allow some students to attend? Thinking those with disabilities that the school simply is not capable of dealing with.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not one nickel unless and until private schools are required to take everyone and provide all services. They aren't going to do so unless they are required to do so and we both know it.


You do realize that once they take public money they do no longer be a private school right?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> And, if they want public funding, the private schools should be required to take all and to accommodate those needs. It is just plain wrong to provide public funding to private schools while allowing them to continue to reject students and deny services.


How is it wrong for private schools to get public funds when public schools do? Remember, public schools also fail to provide proper services too. At least two states have required interventions, and many others fail to meet minimum standards on a regular basis.


----------



## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> You do realize that once they take public money they do no longer be a private school right?


They're the ones with their hands out for public funding. As long as, of course, they can cherry pick students and deny services.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> They're the ones with their hands out for public funding. As long as, of course, they can cherry pick students and deny services.


And public schools are the ones with their hands already in the cookie jar.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> And public schools are the ones with their hands already in the cookie jar.


And public schools are the ones enrolling all students, no cherry picking. Public schools are the ones providing services, including, for that matter, special education services to students enrolled in private schools. Why are you so afraid of making private schools step up, enroll all students who want to attend and provide all of their own services if they want public funding?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I’m not afraid. I’d just like to see our students get the education they rightfully deserve and is being paid for by myself and other taxpayers.and no, public schools do not enroll all students.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I’m not afraid. I’d just like to see our students get the education they rightfully deserve and is being paid for by myself and other taxpayers.and no, public schools do not enroll all students.


Baloney. This has not one thing to do with anything other than allowing the private schools to continue to cherry pick students and deny services all on the taxpayer's dime.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Baloney. This has not one thing to do with anything other than allowing the private schools to continue to cherry pick students and deny services all on the taxpayer's dime.


It’s our dime!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> It’s our dime!


It's my dime too and I don't want a single taxpayer dime going to any private school that is allowed to operate under special rules.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> Put the requirements in place first.


Why? Buy a burger and you pay first, if the product is bad then you go somewhere else the next time. It’s how business works. Business people know this, which I suspect is part of the problem with the administration of many government schools.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> It's my dime too and I don't want a single taxpayer dime going to any private school that is allowed to operate under special rules.


Different rules aren’t special rules.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Evons hubby said:


> Different rules aren’t special rules.


Rules ? Student shows up, money is collected. Check the boxes that services have been provided. Positive results not required and often times not provided. Rules were followed and all is well……………………


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Why? Buy a burger and you pay first, if the product is bad then you go somewhere else the next time. It’s how business works. Business people know this, which I suspect is part of the problem with the administration of many government schools.


You know as well as I do that if private schools are provided with public funds without first putting requirements in place making them accept all students, provide all services and provide due process that they won't.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> You know as well as I do that if private schools are provided with public funds without first putting requirements in place making them accept all students, provide all services and provide due process that they won't.


You mean the same way many states let the public schools do? I’d be ok with placing those rules on private schools, as long as they aren’t enforced.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> You mean the same way many states let the public schools do? I’d be ok with placing those rules on private schools, as long as they aren’t enforced.


As usual, you don't know what you are talking about.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> You know as well as I do that if private schools are provided with public funds without first putting requirements in place making them accept all students, provide all services and provide due process that they won't.


I do not know that for sure. Money provides a lot of incentive. Positive results are often times a result of money, since more money is desired. Being required to do something, often times does not provide good results. Especially when the money just keeps on coming.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> As usual, you don't know what you are talking about.


Did you not read the information I brought forward? About half the states not meeting the requirements of the law passed in 1975? Two states recently having to have intervention to attempt to get them in compliance? I thought you read it as you responded like you had.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> They're the ones with their hands out for public funding. As long as, of course, they can cherry pick students and deny services.


You can keep saying that but it wont make it true. Once again:

Once they take public money, they become a public school. This means they cant pick and choose anymore because they are not private anymore. 

There will still be private schools. There will also be former private (now public) schools. 

You are starting to sound like a parrot with that line. 

I havent heard you say anything about if this were to happen would they teach better than now public mega schools.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Did you not read the information I brought forward? About half the states not meeting the requirements of the law passed in 1975? Two states recently having to have intervention to attempt to get them in compliance? I thought you read it as you responded like you had.


I did read it. Plus, unlike you, I understood it. I also know some things about that report that you apparently don't. Almost 30% of a state's score is based on a rank ordering of all the states. Did you know that? So no matter how well certain states do there will always be 1/3 that have no way to get all the possible points in that section because it is a rank ordering. I also know that states are penalized if students get an alternate diploma instead of a standard one. An alternate diploma is appropriate for some students but states are penalized in this rating system if students obtain one. They also don't include students taking alternate assessments in their calculations of performance. Did you know that? There was no consideration for growth. Did you know that?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> You can keep saying that but it wont make it true. Once again:
> 
> Once they take public money, they become a public school. This means they cant pick and choose anymore because they are not private anymore.
> 
> ...


Private schools don't teach better now. What makes you think they will teach better if they are provided with taxpayer money? 

"Once they take public money, they become a public school. This means they cant pick and choose anymore because they are not private anymore." 
I think you are missing the point of the discussion. The people pushing for vouchers want the private schools to be able to receive taxpayer funds while at the same time being allowed to continue to operate under their special rules which allow them to, among other things, to pick and choose students. In short, they want to have their cake and eat it too.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> I did read it. Plus, unlike you, I understood it. I also know some things about that report that you apparently don't. Almost 30% of a state's score is based on a rank ordering of all the states. Did you know that? So no matter how well certain states do there will always be 1/3 that have no way to get all the possible points in that section because it is a rank ordering. I also know that states are penalized if students get an alternate diploma instead of a standard one. An alternate diploma is appropriate for some students but states are penalized in this rating system if students obtain one. They also don't include students taking alternate assessments in their calculations of performance. Did you know that? There was no consideration for growth. Did you know that?


I know what I read..... a lot of states failed to comply with minimum standards, but somehow still get our tax dollars! I also know the U.S. now ranks 24th world wide in education, a bit ahead of Zimbabwe and South Africa. But you go ahead and brag about our wonderful public schools if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. Me? I think 24th is a dismal report card in any language!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I know what I read..... a lot of states failed to comply with minimum standards, but somehow still get our tax dollars! I also know the U.S. now ranks 24th world wide in education, a bit ahead of Zimbabwe and South Africa. But you go ahead and brag about our wonderful public schools if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. Me? I think 24th is a dismal report card in any language!


No, you know what you read in an opinion piece. Did you read the actual report? Did you read the critique of the report? Did you read about how the scores were determined? Did you read what the scores meant?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, you know what you read in an opinion piece. Did you read the actual report? Did you read the critique of the report? Did you read about how the scores were determined? Did you read what the scores meant?


I read what the link to the dept of education said. It seemed to agree with the “opinion piece”. They said many states “failed to comply with minimum standards set”. Showed a table naming the various states.

I got failure to comply with the law with no penalty, more money sent equals no real enforcement.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I read what the link to the dept of education said. It seemed to agree with the “opinion piece”. They said many states “failed to comply with minimum standards set”. Showed a table naming the various states.


So no, you didn't read any of what I posted. Not surprising.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> So no, you didn't read any of what I posted. Not surprising.


Shoulda posted the links or at least make mention.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Private schools don't teach better now. What makes you think they will teach better if they are provided with taxpayer money?
> 
> "Once they take public money, they become a public school. This means they cant pick and choose anymore because they are not private anymore."
> I think you are missing the point of the discussion. The people pushing for vouchers want the private schools to be able to receive taxpayer funds while at the same time being allowed to continue to operate under their special rules which allow them to, among other things, to pick and choose students. In short, they want to have their cake and eat it too.


No, most of us dont. Those that spend money to "ivy" league private schools will still be able to do their thing. Those that want other options will be able to do their thing too. 

The mass majority cares less about cake or even eating it. That is your own construct. Sure, there are some I am sure. But if they think that they will be voted down real quick. 

Not related but similar. Have family in medicine. They were so against social medicine back in the day. Their argument was "Our wages will go down and so will the care." Now they are wanting it since they are retired and asking why they didn't vote for it when they had the chance. 

Not saying I am right about education. Not saying you are right either. Or my family about socialized medicine either. Just saying you should step out of the octagon just a bit and consider other options. It's ok to come to the conclusion that you are right or that you might even have been wrong. Just consider it is all. What could go right? What could go wrong? 

We need educated and unbiased solutions because we have been falling behind the rest of the world for a while now.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> No, most of us dont. Those that spend money to "ivy" league private schools will still be able to do their thing. Those that want other options will be able to do their thing too.


Parents who want "other options" can already "do their thing". 



mreynolds said:


> The mass majority cares less about cake or even eating it. That is your own construct. Sure, there are some I am sure. But if they think that they will be voted down real quick.


Not so. You merely have to look at the slate of voucher legislation in a variety of states to see that they do indeed want to have their cake and eat it too. Public money going to private schools while those schools are allowed to operate under their same old rules.



mreynolds said:


> Not related but similar. Have family in medicine. They were so against social medicine back in the day. Their argument was "Our wages will go down and so will the care." Now they are wanting it since they are retired and asking why they didn't vote for it when they had the chance.
> 
> Not saying I am right about education. Not saying you are right either. Or my family about socialized medicine either. Just saying you should step out of the octagon just a bit and consider other options. It's ok to come to the conclusion that you are right or that you might even have been wrong. Just consider it is all. What could go right? What could go wrong?
> 
> We need educated and unbiased solutions because we have been falling behind the rest of the world for a while now.


The problem is that any solution or discussion that does not involve bashing teachers or public schools holds no interest for the vast majority of posters at HT.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Parents who want "other options" can already "do their thing".
> 
> *If they "do their thang" it costs them money. Therefore, poor people cant do it. *
> 
> ...


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> The problem is that any solution or discussion that does not involve bashing teachers or public schools holds no interest for the vast majority of posters at HT.


Not true, I think most posters here are all in favor of getting our kids properly educated.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Not true, I think most posters here are all in favor of getting our kids properly educated.


Absolutely true. Look at the education threads that are posted here. It's teacher and education bashing left and right.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Absolutely true. Look at the education threads that are posted here. It's teacher and education bashing left and right.


Only the bad teachers and bad policies currently in place. We are all looking for ways to improve our failing system.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Only the bad teachers and bad policies currently in place. We are all looking for ways to improve our failing system.


Bull. Every thread about education in recent months has been nothing but teacher bashing and education bashing. It's an endless parade of hysterics about what posters believe is happening in education regardless of facts. And when facts are presented that show the posts to be false, posters stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to believe anything that challenges their preconceived notions.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Bull. Every thread about education in recent months has been nothing but teacher bashing and education bashing. It's an endless parade of hysterics about what posters believe is happening in education regardless of facts. And when facts are presented that show the posts to be false, posters stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to believe anything that challenges their preconceived notions.


So you say. The fact is that the U.S. was once the worlds leader in education.... today it’s in 24th place. We aren’t bashing, we are concerned about our children and the future.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> So you say. The fact is that the U.S. was once the worlds leader in education.... today it’s in 24th place. We aren’t bashing, we are concerned about our children and the future.


Look back at the threads on this site. You are absolutely bashing. You won't admit it though.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Look back at the threads on this site. You are absolutely bashing. You won't admit it though.


Not bashing at all. Are people not allowed to question our current educational system/policies? Or bring forth the data that shows there are serious problems? At least I consider them serious. Offering possible solutions is not bashing, it’s called productive discussion.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

SLFarmMI, would you not agree that the standard for basic education (k-12) has been and is on the decline in our public schools?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

gilberte said:


> SLFarmMI, would you not agree that the standard for basic education (k-12) has been and is on the decline in our public schools?


No, I don't. There is a trend for people to look back on their school career and say, "When I was in school, it was so much better." That's nostalgia, not fact.

Let's take a look at this "decline". 
I can just about predict that, in response to this post, that someone will post an image of the 8th grade test from 1912 that makes the rounds of the internet from time to time. They will point to that test as some sort of proof that education is on the decline. They will point to that test and declare how very difficult it is. What they won't do is analyze the questions on that test. I don't know if you are familiar with Bloom's Taxonomy but basically it is a way to categorize the depth & complexity of knowledge. It is arranged in a triangle with the more complex things at the top and the less complex things at the bottom. If you analyze that test that makes the rounds, you will see that those questions are almost exclusively from the two sections near the bottom of the triangle. So this test that people purport as being so challenging really isn't all that complex. The students involved in the curriculum that test covered were really being educated at a very shallow level. The bottom of the triangle is a nice place to visit but you don't want to live there. Now, we try to gear our questions/activities more toward the top of the triangle so kids have a deeper knowledge of the content. I wouldn't call that a decline.




__





Redirect Notice






www.google.com






Let's look at high school graduation next. If you look at the data on graduation from 1960 to present, you will see a rise. Over 90% of the US population has graduated from high school. Those percentages have never been that high before. I wouldn't call that a decline. 








Percentage of U.S. population who have completed high school 1960-2020 | Statista


In 2020, around 91.3 percent of women had graduated high school or had obtained a higher educational degree in the United States.




www.statista.com





Let's look at special education next. Prior to 1975, 1.75 million children with disabilities were excluded from public school entirely. They had no right to a public education at all. We still have some work to do in this area (a good start would be for Congress to fund IDEA as promised) as the graduation rate for students with disabilities lags behind their typically developing peers but I wouldn't call our services to students with disabilities a decline. 

Now let's look at long term trends in reading and math scores because, for some people, test scores appear to be the end all and be all of education. If you look at trends on the NAEP(National Assessment of Educational Progress), you will see that scores are improving. I wouldn't call that a decline. 




__





Average National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) reading scale score and percentage of students attaining NAEP reading achievement levels, by selected school and student characteristics and grade: Selected years, 1992 through 2019


The primary purpose of the Digest of Education Statistics is to provide a compilation of statistical information covering the broad field of American education from prekindergarten through graduate school. The Digest includes a selection of data from many sources, both government and private...



nces.ed.gov








__





Average National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) mathematics scale score and percentage of students attaining NAEP mathematics achievement levels, by selected school and student characteristics and grade: Selected years, 1990 through 2019


The primary purpose of the Digest of Education Statistics is to provide a compilation of statistical information covering the broad field of American education from prekindergarten through graduate school. The Digest includes a selection of data from many sources, both government and private...



nces.ed.gov


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, I don't. There is a trend for people to look back on their school career and say, "When I was in school, it was so much better." That's nostalgia, not fact.
> 
> Let's take a look at this "decline".
> I can just about predict that, in response to this post, that someone will post an image of the 8th grade test from 1912 that makes the rounds of the internet from time to time. They will point to that test as some sort of proof that education is on the decline. They will point to that test and declare how very difficult it is. What they won't do is analyze the questions on that test. I don't know if you are familiar with Bloom's Taxonomy but basically it is a way to categorize the depth & complexity of knowledge. It is arranged in a triangle with the more complex things at the top and the less complex things at the bottom. If you analyze that test that makes the rounds, you will see that those questions are almost exclusively from the two sections near the bottom of the triangle. So this test that people purport as being so challenging really isn't all that complex. The students involved in the curriculum that test covered were really being educated at a very shallow level. The bottom of the triangle is a nice place to visit but you don't want to live there. Now, we try to gear our questions/activities more toward the top of the triangle so kids have a deeper knowledge of the content. I wouldn't call that a decline.
> ...


So by dumbing down the test questions the students appear to be excelling? I’d say going from first place in education to 24th world wide (ahead of Somalia and Zimbabwe) tells a more accurate story. Graduating high school not able to read at a sixth grade level plays havoc with those rates as well.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> So by dumbing down the test questions the students appear to be excelling? I’d say going from first place in education to 24th world wide (ahead of Somalia and Zimbabwe) tells a better story.


On what planet did you get that making questions more complex is "dumbing down the test questions?"


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> On what planet did you get that making questions more complex is "dumbing down the test questions?"


Here on this planet. Does not sliding from 1st to 24th place planet wide mean anything to you?

pop quiz.... how many years are there between 1776 and 1865?

select one

a. Less than a century
b. between one and two centuries
c. More than two centuries


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Here on this planet. Does not sliding from 1st to 24th place planet wide mean anything to you?
> 
> pop quiz.... how many years are there between 1776 and 1865?
> 
> ...


In your land of delusion, perhaps.

And let's take the time to clear up your repeated attempts to misrepresent the conversation that you are referencing with your idiotic "pop quiz". The Colonial period is part of American history despite your attempts to declare that it is not. That period started in 1607. The first slaves were brought here in 1619. 1865 marked the end of slavery with the 13th amendment. I realize that you want to ignore all that history to bolster your erroneous claim that slavery was just a "footnote" in American history but you are wrong.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> In your land of delusion, perhaps.
> 
> And let's take the time to clear up your repeated attempts to misrepresent the conversation that you are referencing with your idiotic "pop quiz". The Colonial period is part of American history despite your attempts to declare that it is not. That period started in 1607. The first slaves were brought here in 1619. 1865 marked the end of slavery with the 13th amendment. I realize that you want to ignore all that history to bolster your erroneous claim that slavery was just a "footnote" in American history but you are wrong.


Why not start with 1492? Or 2000 bc? America was here long before the constitution was adopted in 1887, thus creating our nation. Different leaders, different rules and like that. Slavery existed in “America” for many centuries prior to the landing of the mayflower as well, along with cannibalism and other practices considered unsavory today.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, I don't. There is a trend for people to look back on their school career and say, "When I was in school, it was so much better." That's nostalgia, not fact.
> 
> Let's take a look at this "decline".
> I can just about predict that, in response to this post, that someone will post an image of the 8th grade test from 1912 that makes the rounds of the internet from time to time. They will point to that test as some sort of proof that education is on the decline. They will point to that test and declare how very difficult it is. What they won't do is analyze the questions on that test. I don't know if you are familiar with Bloom's Taxonomy but basically it is a way to categorize the depth & complexity of knowledge. It is arranged in a triangle with the more complex things at the top and the less complex things at the bottom. If you analyze that test that makes the rounds, you will see that those questions are almost exclusively from the two sections near the bottom of the triangle. So this test that people purport as being so challenging really isn't all that complex. The students involved in the curriculum that test covered were really being educated at a very shallow level. The bottom of the triangle is a nice place to visit but you don't want to live there. Now, we try to gear our questions/activities more toward the top of the triangle so kids have a deeper knowledge of the content. I wouldn't call that a decline.
> ...


So according to this the USA has improved. If we are now 24th then it seems that even though we have improved, 23 other countries have improved more than we have. Perhaps someday we can improve enough to move up the chart, instead of falling down it.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> So according to this the USA has improved. If we are now 24th then it seems that even though we have improved, 23 other countries have improved more than we have. Perhaps someday we can improve enough to move up the chart, instead of falling down it.


Perhaps you should not be depending on one test given every 3 years to one age group for your information. Especially a flawed test. Do you even know anything about the test you're citing?



http://www.confero.ep.liu.se/issues/2019/v7/i1/a02/confero19v7i1a02.pdf










Does the PISA exam define education quality? - Study International


Reactions to the 2018 PISA exam results reveal that many are broadly accepting it as a definitive ranking of educational quality.




www.studyinternational.com








__





SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals


Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.




journals.sagepub.com








__





Two decades of havoc: A synthesis of criticism against PISA







link.springer.com


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Yeppers, Pisa only concerns itself with reading, math, and science.... skips right passed the stuff of real importance like gender identity, bullying, and racial prejudices. Very poor way to rate education!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Yeppers, Pisa only concerns itself with reading, math, and science.... skips right passed the stuff of real importance like gender identity, bullying, and racial prejudices. Very poor way to rate education!


Why don't you try reading the information in the links? Oh, that's right, because you can't be bothered with the facts. The PISA test is a poor way to rate education and, if you had bothered to read and comprehend the information in the links I posted you'd know that and you'd know why.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why don't you try reading the information in the links? Oh, that's right, because you can't be bothered with the facts. The PISA test is a poor way to rate education and, if you had bothered to read and comprehend the information in the links I posted you'd know that and you'd know why.


I read them, and came to my conclusion which (Gasp) seems to be in agreement with yours!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I read them, and came to my conclusion which (Gasp) seems to be in agreement with yours!


Well, then maybe you'll stop citing the test every other post as if it had anything to do with determining quality of education. Maybe then you'll admit that you were (gasp) wrong in post #263. Hey, maybe that revelation will get you to admit that you really don't know as much as you think you do about education. One can hope.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Well, then maybe you'll stop citing the test every other post as if it had anything to do with determining quality of education. Maybe then you'll admit that you were (gasp) wrong in post #263. Hey, maybe that revelation will get you to admit that you really don't know as much as you think you do about education. One can hope.


Or maybe the universally recognized test was right as far as reading, math, and science was concerned. It could be that many regard those as areas of importance.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Or maybe the universally recognized test was right as far as reading, math, and science was concerned. It could be that many regard those as areas of importance.


Or maybe you could actually read the information in the links and recognize that attempting to use this test that has been flawed since its beginning to determine anything worthwhile about education is futile.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Or maybe you could actually read the information in the links and recognize that attempting to use this test that has been flawed since its beginning to determine anything worthwhile about education is futile.


Like I said, I read, comprehended and understand the information in the links. I’d say the test is fine, as far as the subjects covered goes. I’d also hazard a guess that a lot of the worlds good citizens place a lot of value on those subjects. It’s not all about just you and me and our opinion.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Like I said, I read, comprehended and understand the information in the links. I’d say the test is fine, as far as the subjects covered goes. I’d also hazard a guess that a lot of the works good citizens place a lot of value on those subjects. It’s not all about just you and me and our opinion.


I'd say that if you think the "test is fine" then you obviously did not comprehend the linked information.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> I'd say that if you think the "test is fine" then you obviously did not comprehend the linked information.


I said I think the test is fine in the subjects it covers. There is a difference. For those that think gender identity, racial hatred, and bullying etc are of greater importance, prolly not a good test.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I said I think the test is fine in the subjects it covers. There is a difference. For those that think gender identity, racial hatred, and bullying etc are of greater importance, prolly not a good test.


And, again, if you think the test is "fine in the subjects it covers", then you obviously did not comprehend the linked information. All of the linked information explains exactly how the test is not "fine in the subjects it covers".


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> And, again, if you think the test is "fine in the subjects it covers", then you obviously did not comprehend the linked information. All of the linked information explains exactly how the test is not "fine in the subjects it covers".


I know you think you are the supreme judge of all things educational. But I try to put credit where it’s due. Is the test perfect in every way? Prolly not, but it’s the best we have to work with.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I know you think you are the supreme judge of all things educational. But I try to put credit where it’s due. Is the test perfect in every way? Prolly not, but it’s the best we have to work with.


I know you'll do anything to dodge around the reality that the facts from actual educational researchers from several countries don't support your opinion.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Several countries, lol.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I know you think you are the supreme judge of all things educational. But I try to put credit where it’s due. Is the test perfect in every way? Prolly not, but it’s the best we have to work with.


The test isn't anywhere close to perfect which is what researchers are telling you. Nor is it "the best we have to work with" which is also in the posted links. 



GTX63 said:


> Several countries, lol.


Norway, Finland, Ireland, Australia and the US, plus the other countries that are referenced in the posted links. Yeah, that's several countries.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> The test isn't anywhere close to perfect which is what researchers are telling you. Nor is it "the best we have to work with" which is also in the posted links.
> 
> 
> 
> Norway, Finland, Ireland, Australia and the US, plus the other countries that are referenced in the posted links. Yeah, that's several countries.


Odd how it’s the countries that didn’t come in first that claim it’s a bogus test.


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## Grafton County Couple (Sep 20, 2018)

Educational equity. Math is now offensive towards students & teachers.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Odd how it’s the countries that didn’t come in first that claim it’s a bogus test.


Odd how researchers, regardless of where they are from or where their country ranked, have been raising concerns about this test since its inception.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Odd how researchers, regardless of where they are from or where their country ranked, have been raising concerns about this test since its inception.


What us a better way to determine educational achievement?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Odd how researchers, regardless of where they are from or where their country ranked, have been raising concerns about this test since its inception.


Of course. They wont like anything they don’t get to design or might reflect poorly on them. I’ve noticed the same attitude displayed by some teachers about standardized testing of students.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Of course. They wont like anything they don’t get to design or might reflect poorly on them. I’ve noticed the same attitude displayed by some teachers about standardized testing of students.


How unsurprising that you are ignoring all the data that was presented in the links I provided. Sad that you'd prefer to wallow in willful ignorance rather than find out the facts. Wouldn't want the facts to challenge your preconceived notions.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> How unsurprising that you are ignoring all the data that was presented in the links I provided. Sad that you'd prefer to wallow in willful ignorance rather than find out the facts. Wouldn't want the facts to challenge your preconceived notions.


I haven’t ignored anything. It’s just that I don’t swallow anything without making sure it kosher first.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I haven’t ignored anything. It’s just that I don’t swallow anything without making sure it kosher first.


Now that's funny. You swallow anything that fits what you want to believe regardless of what the facts are. 

Multiple researchers in multiple countries over multiple years say this test is no good but you believe it's "just fine".


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Now that's funny. You swallow anything that fits what you want to believe regardless of what the facts are.
> 
> Multiple researchers in multiple countries over multiple years say this test is no good but you believe it's "just fine".


I said it’s fine.... as far as reading, math, and science are concerned. Do you know of another study of its kind that you prefer?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Evons hubby said:


> I said it’s fine.... as far as reading, math, and science are concerned. Do you know of another study of its kind that you prefer?


I asked, but.....silence. It appears that there may not be a better test!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I said it’s fine.... as far as reading, math, and science are concerned. Do you know of another study of its kind that you prefer?


And the folks who have researched it say it is NOT fine. Researchers all over the world have been saying this for over 2 decades. Nor is the PISA test a study.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

JeffreyD said:


> I asked, but.....silence. It appears that there may not be a better test!


Hint -- read the linked material. 

Second hint -- read the data upthread that I have already provided.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

It appears to be the only one we have.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> It appears to be the only one we have.


Read the linked data.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Hint -- read the linked material.
> 
> Second hint -- read the data upthread that I have already provided.


You could be civil and just say what it is. I know its tough, but....
It must be tough being so angry all day every day. Oh well, it your life. Don't worry, be happy!!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Read the linked data.


I read it, your links have not provided another world wide test for comparison. Only whining that this one is unfair, inadequate, or biased.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I read it, your links have not provided another world wide test for comparison. Only whining that this one is unfair, inadequate, or biased.


Want to bet? If you really read the material, you'll find it.

And decades of research that prove the test you apparently love is inadequate isn't "whining".


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

JeffreyD said:


> You could be civil and just say what it is. I know its tough, but....
> It must be tough being so angry all day every day. Oh well, it your life. Don't worry, be happy!!


You could actually do the work and read the material that was provided to you. All you have to do is click and read. Simple. 

You accusing anyone of being uncivil or angry is laughable.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Want to bet? If you really read the material, you'll find it.
> 
> And decades of research that prove the test you apparently love is inadequate isn't "whining".


How about posting a link to this test you claim I overlooked while reading through the haystack you provided?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> How about posting a link to this test you claim I overlooked while reading through the haystack you provided?


How about actually reading the links for real this time? I've provided the links with the information. Read them. You'll find the other assessments mentioned in 3 out of the 4 links I've already provided.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> How about actually reading the links for real this time? I've provided the links with the information. Read them. You'll find the other assessments mentioned in 3 out of the 4 links I've already provided.


Right. Wonder how I missed them before?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Right. Wonder how I missed them before?


More than likely, once you realized the data didn't support your preconceived notions, you stopped reading.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> You could actually do the work and read the material that was provided to you. All you have to do is click and read. Simple.
> 
> You accusing anyone of being uncivil or angry is laughable.


Its the people that are angry like you, that are laughable. Can you ever be civil, or is it just the way you are? Facts and truth eluded you.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

JeffreyD said:


> Its the people that are angry like you, that are laughable. Can you ever be civil, or is it just the way you are? Facts and truth eluded you.


So says the supposedly grown man who, when presented with facts and research from historians that disputed his beliefs, had a hissy fit and started name calling. You are nothing if not amusing.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> More than likely, once you realized the data didn't support your preconceived notions, you stopped reading.


Nope, I read through all of it. We’re these other tests and testing entities just mentioned? Linked perhaps? I seldom chase links down endless rabbit holes. That’s why I’m asking for a specific link to a specific entity/test.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Nope, I read through all of it. We’re these other tests and testing entities just mentioned? Linked perhaps? I seldom chase links down endless rabbit holes. That’s why I’m asking for a specific link to a specific entity/test.


Not linked. Mentioned in the discussion within the articles/research.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not linked. Mentioned in the discussion within the articles/research.


So, how about a link?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> So, how about a link?


I've provided you with 4 already. 

I've found the research for you. I've posted it for you. I'm not going to read and comprehend it for you.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> So, how about a link?


Ms. Information.com


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

GTX63 said:


> Ms. Information.com


You forgot to include a photo to confuse it.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)




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## tripletmom (Feb 4, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> And, yet, you continue to prove that you don't give a crap about any of them. You can post as many pictures as you like with as many snarky, condescending comments as you like but it doesn't change the truth that it is just plain wrong to provide public funds to private schools while allowing those schools to reject students, deny services and deny rights.


IN YOUR OPINION


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

tripletmom said:


> IN YOUR OPINION


And I get to express my opinion as I see fit even if a certain gang of posters here don't like it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> And I get to express my opinion as I see fit even if a certain gang of posters here don't like it.


By all means, post your erroneous opinions here. in the meantime I will post mine. There is nothing wrong with compensating anyone who provides a service to our government using public funds. There is also nothing wrong with having a group of intelligent folks test students world wide and reporting those test scores to the world.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> By all means, post your erroneous opinions here. in the meantime I will post mine. There is nothing wrong with compensating anyone who provides a service to our government using public funds. There is also nothing wrong with having a group of intelligent folks test students world wide and reporting those test scores to the world.


There is absolutely something wrong with providing taxpayer money to a private school while allowing that school to reject students, deny services and deny rights.

There is absolutely something wrong with the test you are citing and many intelligent folks world wide have pointed out the many failings of that test.

But you go right on ahead and post your faulty opinions which are supported by nothing other than your feelings. I will continue to post mine which are supported by research, data and facts.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> There is absolutely something wrong with providing taxpayer money to a private school while allowing that school to reject students, deny services and deny rights.
> 
> There is absolutely something wrong with the test you are citing and many intelligent folks world wide have pointed out the many failings of that test.
> 
> But you go right on ahead and post your faulty opinions which are supported by nothing other than your feelings. I will continue to post mine which are supported by research, data and facts.


Have you found some other test used that provides different results than the one I cited?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> Have you found some other test used that provides different results than the one I cited?


Read the links I posted.

Maybe you could also try admitting that the test you keep citing is flawed.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I read your links, found no mention of other tests being used. Also searched google, zip, nada, nothing. i admitted the test being used doesn’t cover many subjects being taught, but the Subjects they do cover, math, reading and science are pretty important all by themselves.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> I read your links, found no mention of other tests being used. Also searched google, zip, nada, nothing. i admitted the test being used doesn’t cover many subjects being taught, but the Subjects they do cover, math, reading and science are pretty important all by themselves.


They absolutely do mention other tests. They also go into some detail about the flaws in this test that you seem to think is so great. 

Here's one of their conclusions:
"The product of most public value, the national league tables, are based on so many weak links that they should be abandoned right away. If only a few of the methodological issues raised in this volume are on target, the league tables depend on assumptions about the validity and reliability which are unattainable."


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Evons hubby said:


> There is nothing wrong with compensating anyone who provides a service to our government using public funds. There is also nothing wrong with having a group of intelligent folks test students world wide and reporting those test scores to the world.


You are correct.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

tripletmom said:


> IN YOUR OPINION


Talking Points for Public Reeducation really needs a new issue.
Badly.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> They absolutely do mention other tests. They also go into some detail about the flaws in this test that you seem to think is so great.
> 
> Here's one of their conclusions:
> "The product of most public value, the national league tables, are based on so many weak links that they should be abandoned right away. If only a few of the methodological issues raised in this volume are on target, the league tables depend on assumptions about the validity and reliability which are unattainable."


So their opinion would be similar to yours.

since you’re so familiar with these other tests, how about a name? Something google might pick up.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Evons hubby said:


> So their opinion would be similar to yours.
> 
> since you’re so familiar with these other tests, how about a name? Something google might pick up.


Their "opinion" is based on research and data. That's the little tidbit you keep ignoring. The data shows that the PISA test is fatally flawed.

The information on other tests is in the links I posted. I've told you that several times. A quick skim of the links will provide you with the information you seek. I'm not going to do your thinking for you.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, I don't. There is a trend for people to look back on their school career and say, "When I was in school, it was so much better." That's nostalgia, not fact.
> 
> Let's take a look at this "decline".
> I can just about predict that, in response to this post, that someone will post an image of the 8th grade test from 1912 that makes the rounds of the internet from time to time. They will point to that test as some sort of proof that education is on the decline. They will point to that test and declare how very difficult it is. What they won't do is analyze the questions on that test. I don't know if you are familiar with Bloom's Taxonomy but basically it is a way to categorize the depth & complexity of knowledge. It is arranged in a triangle with the more complex things at the top and the less complex things at the bottom. If you analyze that test that makes the rounds, you will see that those questions are almost exclusively from the two sections near the bottom of the triangle. So this test that people purport as being so challenging really isn't all that complex. The students involved in the curriculum that test covered were really being educated at a very shallow level. The bottom of the triangle is a nice place to visit but you don't want to live there. Now, we try to gear our questions/activities more toward the top of the triangle so kids have a deeper knowledge of the content. I wouldn't call that a decline.
> ...


From the first link that takes a person to down the rabbit hole. Bloom's Taxonomy comes from Benjamin Samuel Bloom. He was instrumental in helping in the creation of the International Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement, the IEA. 

The IEA TIMSS 2019 International Results in Mathematics and Science has a study about a variety of rankings of different countries around the world. In this study their trends in achievement study list a variety of countries rankings. 



https://timss2019.org/reports/wp-content/themes/timssandpirls/download-center/TIMSS-2019-Highlights.pdf



This study ranks the USA at…..

4th grade mathematics 15th
8th grade mathematics 12th

4th grade science 9th
8th grade science 11th


Students can apply basic mathematical knowledge 
Somewhere around 60 percent of USA 4th graders
It drops to around 40 percent for the 8th graders




https://timss2019.org/reports/wp-content/themes/timssandpirls/download-center/TIMSS-2019-Highlights.pdf




Not exactly impressive, especially since it seems the USA spends more money per student on education than almost everyone.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> From the first link that takes a person to down the rabbit hole. Bloom's Taxonomy comes from Benjamin Samuel Bloom. He was instrumental in helping in the creation of the International Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement, the IEA.
> 
> The IEA TIMSS 2019 International Results in Mathematics and Science has a study about a variety of rankings of different countries around the world. In this study their trends in achievement study list a variety of countries rankings.
> 
> ...


You might want to look at those rankings again as the very reports you linked declare there is no significant difference in scores between the US and most of the countries that supposedly "beat" us. For example, on one of those tests, Norway received exactly the same average score as the US and is "ranked" higher. So take that ranking with a very large grain of salt. Your percentages are off as well.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Redlands Okie said:


> From the first link that takes a person to down the rabbit hole. Bloom's Taxonomy comes from Benjamin Samuel Bloom. He was instrumental in helping in the creation of the International Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement, the IEA.
> 
> The IEA TIMSS 2019 International Results in Mathematics and Science has a study about a variety of rankings of different countries around the world. In this study their trends in achievement study list a variety of countries rankings.
> 
> ...


Thank you!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> You might want to look at those rankings again as the very reports you linked declare there is no significant difference in scores between the US and most of the countries that supposedly "beat" us. For example, on one of those tests, Norway received exactly the same average score as the US and is "ranked" higher. So take that ranking with a very large grain of salt. Your percentages are off as well.


How far off are his percentages? for whatever reason his link won’t open for me.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> You might want to look at those rankings again as the very reports you linked declare there is no significant difference in scores between the US and most of the countries that supposedly "beat" us. For example, on one of those tests, Norway received exactly the same average score as the US and is "ranked" higher. So take that ranking with a very large grain of salt. Your percentages are off as well.


I listed the percentages in a manner to allow some allowance. Feel free to show where they are off. Kind of old school, but please show your work. Primarily a government school education here and so I am working with what I have been provided. 

Testing and methods used in those ranking are unknown by me. Salt influenced rankings are provided by following your links down the rabbit hole.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Someone help that drowning lady please...


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Its ok to throw them the ring, but never attempt a pull them in while they are still flailing.
It is in the lifeguard handbook, public version.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> I listed the percentages in a manner to allow some allowance. Feel free to show where they are off. Kind of old school, but please show your work. Primarily a government school education here and so I am working with what I have been provided.
> 
> Testing and methods used in those ranking are unknown by me. Salt influenced rankings are provided by following your links down the rabbit hole.


From the report:
"In the United States, 14 percent of 4th-graders in 2019 were at or above the Advanced international benchmark (i.e., demonstrated proficiency with the specific mathematics knowledge and skills at the Advanced level); 46 percent were at or above the High international benchmark, and 77 percent were at or above the Intermediate international benchmark. These three percentages were each higher than the international median for these levels (7 percent, 34 percent, and 71 percent, respectively). The percentage of U.S. 4th-graders at or above the Low international benchmark (93 percent) was not significantly different from the international median (92 percent)."

The "can apply basic mathematical knowledge" in your comment is the intermediate level in the report. You claim "somewhere around 60 percent of USA 4th graders". 77% of US 4th graders were at or above the Intermediate level. A 17% difference in your calculations is some "allowance". You also ignore the phrase "at or above" in your comments. 

Also from the report:
"In the United States, 14 percent of 8th-graders were at or above the Advanced international benchmark (i.e., demonstrated proficiency with the specific mathematics knowledge and skills at the Advanced level), 38 percent were at or above the High international benchmark, and 66 percent were at or above the Intermediate international benchmark in 2019. These three percentages were each higher than the international median for these levels (5 percent, 25 percent, and 56 percent, respectively). The percentage at or above the Low international benchmark was not significantly different from the international median (both 87 percent)."

Your math is even worse here. You claim "It drops to around 40 percent for the 8th graders". You really need to work on your estimation skills if you think 66% is around 40%. 

I notice that you also ignore the fact that our percentages of students in the advanced, high and intermediate ranges were higher than the international median. 





mreynolds said:


> Someone help that drowning lady please...


The only ones drowning are the anti-education folks as they seek to use data that they don't understand from tests they don't understand to continue their propaganda war against education.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> From the report:
> "In the United States, 14 percent of 4th-graders in 2019 were at or above the Advanced international benchmark (i.e., demonstrated proficiency with the specific mathematics knowledge and skills at the Advanced level); 46 percent were at or above the High international benchmark, and 77 percent were at or above the Intermediate international benchmark. These three percentages were each higher than the international median for these levels (7 percent, 34 percent, and 71 percent, respectively). The percentage of U.S. 4th-graders at or above the Low international benchmark (93 percent) was not significantly different from the international median (92 percent)."


So, if I understand correctly nearly a fourth (23%) of our fourth graders fell below the intermediate level in math.
by the time they reached eight grade a full one third (34%) had dropped into the lower level.
It’s nice to know our kids are at least still one point ahead of the average countries, but I remember when we were number one!
it might be just me, but I see these numbers as being a very poor reflection on our educational system. Glad I never took home a report card like that.... my daddy would have whooped me good!


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> Many public schools would be doing kids a favor by turning them away.


True.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Oh, look, another idiotic post from you. It's just amazing the lengths you will go to to avoid admitting that you can't defend your position.





SLFarmMI said:


> Still unable to defend your position and hiding behind snarky, condescending comments I see.


When you're right, you're right.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> So says the supposedly grown man who, when presented with facts and research from historians that disputed his beliefs, had a hissy fit and started name calling. You are nothing if not amusing.


Typical response. Just insults. Can't think for your self. Your very boring. Yawn.....again.
Ill never give you credit for being smart, i will however, give you credit for being the most angry, intolerant, less than useless tool in the drawer.
Have the day you deserve.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

JeffreyD said:


> Typical response. Just insults. Can't think for your self. Your very boring. Yawn.....again.
> Ill never give you credit for being smart, i will however, give you credit for being the most angry, intolerant, less than useless tool in the drawer.
> Have the day you deserve.


Now be nice... I find her to be quite entertaining, not boring.


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