# Turkish Kangal Puppies



## MonsterMalak

Hello Everyone!

I currently have 3 male *Turkish Kangal puppies* born 02/23/11. Parents working with cows, poultry, and assorted farm animals. East Texas farm, Monster Malak.
Capable of extreme predator control. Far more proactive than most other breeds. Work with the go get them attitude. Only breed currently accepted by the Cheetah foundation to protect livestock from African Predators, giving the shepherds an alternative to killing the big cats. 

Possible transport to MT in next few weeks. 
Price $1,000. Will discount to $800 for potential testing placement in heavy pressure or large predator areas. Especially with range operations.

Will have all age appropriate vaccinations, and are wormed every 2 weeks.







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Please visit *www.monstermalak.com* Brian; 903-373-1289


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## Goatress

Hey MM welcome here, this is Goatress from the other forum where we belong too, this forum is wonderful, there are some really nice people over here...its much more comfortable a place to hang out...lots of helpful advice. Your dogs are beautiful. That pic didn't come through on the post though, try again! Enjoy the forum!


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## ONG2

Brian, email sent.


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## MonsterMalak

ONG2

Sorry, but I have not received a email. Can you resend please. [email protected]


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## NorCalChicks

Checked out your website - man those kids are HUGE! Nice looking dogs though - first time I've heard of them.


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## Goatress

NorCalChicks where is Cold Creek? I'm 12 miles out of Winnemucca. Greetings fellow Silver State'r! ;~)


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## NorCalChicks

Goatress said:


> NorCalChicks where is Cold Creek? I'm 12 miles out of Winnemucca. Greetings fellow Silver State'r! ;~)


We have a small ranch up in the Spring Mountains - it's about 15 miles up the mountain from Indian Springs (just off the 95). I noticed you were in NV the other day, but hadn't gotten around to sayin' hi.....HI!
Cold Creek is nice, it's a small off-the-grid community. Love living out here where we can have all the critters we want (which is apparently a lot!) and enjoy the company of the wild horse herds and elk!

Oops....sorry to hijack your thread Brian....back to our previously scheduled LGD thread!


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## bluetick

Checked out your website - wow - you have some big bruisers! The Malakli have an interesting ear shape. Nice looking dogs!


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## earthkitty

"Something about a MONSTER MALAK's BOZ/GUREGH dog on guard has the ability to stop stupid people"


HA!! Love that line. I want an LGD so badly, but we don't have the property fenced yet and everything I read is that if you have no fence, an LGD will be gone. 

We have coyotes everywhere, and more recently have big cats roaming around this area. I'll bookmark your site in case I ever get hubby to spring for a fence!


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## earthkitty

What are the advantages/disadvantages/differences between the breeds that you have? They all seem to be great breeds.

I have always assumed that I would have to have one or two dogs in with the sheep, one trained to protect the chickens, and one to protect the entire farm, and would perhaps even choose three different breeds geared for each task. Sounds like the breeds you have could do all of it.


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## MonsterMalak

No problem on the Hijack,,,haha. I like to learn from people.

The ears in Turkey are cut off,;( To prevent injury, and a wolf from getting a good hold.

Far as I know, these are the first Guregh on this side of the world. The Guregh are a sub breed of Malakli and Kangal. Impressive to me 

I do not have a fence, and live 100 yards from a highway. Let me clarify,,,, fence around livestock with Kangals inside to guard. Other Kangals and Guregh outside free to guard outside exotic fowl. With close neighbors. They are a completely different dog that the Pyrenees. They stay at home. Always on guard, and cant guard if off wandering.

*Goatress*, I have heard you have some of the best Spanish Mastiff imported out of Spain. Would you like to trade some blood. I like the big boys. And any dog at 38 inches like the Guregh, have to be impressive.


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## Goatress

MM my SM's have come over from not only Spain but CZ and Poland as well. My Spanish big males' brother is almost 38" in Spain, one of the tallest Spanish Mastiffs over there, I have heard. Patron is a 'mere midget' at 34" right now, they grow really funny, in spurts, different parts of their body...for awhile his hips were like 3 inches taller than his shoulder. 

Yes down the road we should trade some blood. I have to get a litter on the ground first. If nothing happens this year next year for sure. I have five females of various ages and two males.

MM I am a bit confused which dogs do you have who are the Guregh, are they the big mastiffy ones or are those Malakli, how does one tell the difference? They are a sub breed you say of Malakli.... You sure know more about Kangals than I do... Up until hearing about these kind you have I was under impression there was only one kind of kangal from Sivas. It is fascinating to learn there are so many types. I also like how your Kangals 'do it all', ie, guard family, home, ranch, livestock. You show it can be done. Bravo....


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## Wolf Flower

MonsterMalak said:


> They are a completely different dog that the Pyrenees. They stay at home. Always on guard, and cant guard if off wandering.


I like that.

Are these dogs also protective against two-legged predators? How are they with people coming and going on the property? And other dogs in the household?


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## MonsterMalak

AAUUUGGGHHHHH!!!! My wife accidently deleted a long response(

EarthKitty, I am sorry, but I missed a part of your question.

I currently just have the breeds *Kanga*l and *Boz Guregh*.
Sadly, our Malakli import died from the stressors of the trip. All three breeds are easily stressed breeds, and become susceptable to illness.
My experience began with my first Kangals 7 years ago, following 15 years or running Great Pyrenees. Truthfully, we have not had one predator related loss since. Where as before, usually in the fall or winter, the coyotes would overpower the Pyrenees. At times, the losses were extreme.
The Kangals are supreme predator control dogs. Being the go out and get rid of them type of dog. Literally keeping them out past 1-2 miles. Although I do not know what happens in the woods at night, something has the coyotes to scared to howl anywhere near our house. We have not heard them in 7 years. As far as guarding from 2 legged ones, they are a little more friendly to people. Barking until introduced, then will always remember them and be friendly. But toward night, or if my wife or kids are home alone, they are more defensive. Occasionally with a stranger that looks rough, they will politely refuse to let them inside. I feel they read our comfort level.
The Boz Guregh (Boz means Cream color) come from the North Urfa Mountains in Southern Turkey. (Youruk from southern Urfa Mountains) Probably an ancient blend of Malakli and Kangal and Youruk. The Guregh have been isolated long enough to develope distinct traits and abilities. The climate is harsh, predators many and large, and job is demanding. The people needing a dog that could fill all the needs bred a dog that could function as a Livestock Guardian to protect against extreme predators, Family Guardian and Village Guardian. This resulted in a dog with a low prey drive of a LGD, ability to take on any predator, being good with children, and able to get along as a pack while loose in the village. The tradition to cull ruthlessly, test constantly, and breed only to the dogs that have proven themselves for 8-10 years has resulted in a huge dog that has great health and lives 12-15 years.
Our observation is they tend to be more defensive of both the livestock and my family. Strangers get put back in their cars,,, until introduced. Afterwards, they are announced, but greeted. In town, they are friendly to everyone. With children in public, they are frindly, calm, tollerant and behave perfect. Our male at 5 months old was taken to a birthday party with 40+ young kids. Taken to a wall and told to lay down. For 2.5 hours, he stayed, unrestrained, as kids came over to love and play on him. Perfect babysitter, giving dog rides and all. Our male Guregh in the pasture with livestock, functions right along with the Kangals. Only difference, is he demands respect from them. 
Unfortunatly, I have learned that many of the Malakli in Turkey have been blended with other wastern breeds. Someday I would like to locate and import an old pure bloodline. But the unrest in the Middle East will have to subside before I risk it again.
With the Kangals and Boz Guregh, any pets of the family are not only carefully interacted with, they are cared for. My sweet wife thinks any homeless kitten or stray needs to come home with her  Four week old kittens are brought home, and will not be hurt by the dogs. Once introduced to show them they belong, they are family. A four pound Min Pin would be groomed by a 120 pound Female Kangal. A 4 month old male Guregh mothered a 5 week old Boxer pup, grooming, licking to make eliminate, guarding when outside to pee, and allowing to attempt to nurse. This is the Low Prey drive, and strong Maternal Bonding. LOVE and PROTECT!!!!!!!

*GOATRESS,*please let me know of any breeding with your Spanish Mastiff. I want to get in line. 
Not that I need any other MONSTERS at my house.

I currently just have 2 male Kangals left, as one found a home in Ohio to one day guard a family and 40 acres with goats. 
Have a good day!!!


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## horsepoor21

Hey , you mean Montana !!!  :happy0035:


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## Goatress

MonsterMalak I have to agree with the maternal instinct. Elmas my Kangal female has her coming 9 week old pups all here yet she sneaks in and tries to lick the Pyr/Tatra 2 week old puppies too. I must add pappa Pak (Anatolian/Maremma) also seems to be getting into the 'daddy thing' and he sneaks in a few licks too... ;~) . It is really quite touching.

My Elmas is very intense. I was the only person who could touch her for the longest time after I bought her from Ed Bernell. It took ages for her to accept my best friend who pops over often. Anyone not known, she circles and watches and will bark at them. She kept my UPS man up on the porch for a spell. She never acts like she'll really bite but makes a show that puts most people on guard and extremely nervous. Even people who have been around big dogs, Dobermans, Rotts, etc., they are taken aback by her and are made quite nervous if not downright frightened, and she can tell of course. 

It is hard to explain, there is an intensity in this breed I don't see in others. Only dog comes close is probably one of my male Spanish Mastiffs, Xanto, who does not accept strangers and visitors too well, he does not attack but approaches barking (and his bark can rattle windows), tail up, hair up. He does not like to be touched. I don't discourage this; I have enough friendly LGDs here, that having a few who keep it balanced is what I want. 

MM I am thrilled to hear you sold another pup!

I have also had my first heartbreak with the Boz as the male pup I imported over from Turkey a few months ago died of distemper. He apparently was carrying it, got it, and died. He was a partnership pup with my partner in Montana. He slaved over him to save him to no avail. He was out of a huge Boz Guregh (am I correct in naming Sefir that, MM?). Photo of his sire is below, his mother was a lovely solid ***** out of same breeder. 








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Right now he has pups on the ground out of this huge white male. Note battle scars on face.....he is working Boz with shepherd, run with sheep.




















I'm bringing over a replacement pup later this year, and also hope to get a female. That will give me a Kangal and two Boz dogs.

None of my dogs will tangle with Elmas however she defers to my smallest Pyr female who is the Alpha ***** in the pack beleive it or not...she was also my first LGD and they all seem to sense it. Also Elmas has a 'crush' on Xanto my brindle male SM, she is constantly flirting with him, grin..... 










Interesting note today my teenaged red brindle SM female walked too close to two of Elmas' pups by the haystack and Elmas jumped her. I was right there and grabbed Ellie's collar but to my suprise Zaca came back up snarling and biting. She is 7 mos old already larger than Elmas. 










Although they lack the intensity of the Kangal or Boz, the SM's if pushed will reach the breaking point and fight back, and when and if they do they can be a very formidable foe. I was suprised at Zaca's reaction. Her darker and larger litter sister Zzeleste also has an edge to her. 

Drawbacks: the SM take a long time to grow up. Too long for most "I want it now" mentalities. MM do the Boz grow relatively quickly ie mindset not just physically? Just curious.


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## MonsterMalak

Sorry AMY, I thought I heard OHIO!!!! But things have been crazy, talking with many people about the dogs.

Goatress, I had heard about the Boz import that died. Did not realize you were the partner of Ed. Sadly I know the hurt and disapointment of this. Although mine went much quicker to coccidiosis, following a fight to save the other pup in same import. 
I touched on the subject about the Kangal and related dogs sensitivity to change. Any other breed handles new things in stride. But these dogs get terrified when brought into the house, taken in a car, any new things. Extra caution needs to be taken with helping them adapt. Slow changes are best.
Also sensitive to correction. These dogs get heartbroken to just be fussed at. Yelling at them is as effective as spanking an American Bulldog 100 times. I feel this sensitivity is part of the bred in behavior of Bonding. That is why they are homebodies, and do not run off. 
Truely a different dog. 
Goatress, Good luck with your replacement import. I would be cautious to try it with the tensions in the Middle East. Border inspections will be heightened. My last pups got stopped and had to be driven 8 hours to another crossing,,,$$$. Risky at this point.


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## MonsterMalak

Below is a letter by Dogan Kartay, one of the most respected Kangal experts. 

BASIC PRINCIPALS OF KANGAL DOG TRAINING
BASIC PRINCIPALS OF KANGAL TRAINING

My thesis, which was approved by the science committee, my views and observations that I have been doing for the last 50 years may seem quite radical. Some of my colleagues claim that Kangals are hard to train and I counterclaim this stating that if pupil cannot learn, that may be most likely the trainerâs inadequacy. If the training plan does not consider the dogâs ability, talents, way of life, temperament, behavior and characteristic features, it is destined to fail. My views, by no means, meant to interfere or guide the professional dog trainers but instead are intended to serve as a reminder to those who are Kangal owners and/or trainers. The owner or the trainer should be aware of the fact that Kangals have different characteristics than most of the other breeds; by becoming aware of this fact, the limitations of the training sessions can be broadened and improved tremendously. (Both basic and advance training details are not included in this article.)

Kangalâs close relative the gray wolfâs evolution and its adaptation to plains have a considerable affect on this breed. This fact has always been kept in mind in the Kangal area and people of this region preserved this breed accordingly to date. Before mentioning of the Kangal and the Turkish Shepard dog training tips, the difference of these breeds to others should be determined. Prior to training a Kangal or a Turkish Shepard dog, some certain points should be taken in to consideration such as the gender differences, instinctive behavior towards humans, intense emotions and devotions to their owners and their excessive fondness for their ~ freedom. Although freedom and dependency are contradictory for people, this happens to be Kangals outstanding peculiarity. Kangals dependency is harmonious with his freedom.

Rewarding with food, harsh treatment and strict commands are essential parts of the training sessions and are used most of the time, for most of the breeds. But not for Kangals! For a Kangal food is not a reward! They do not like to be treated harshly, if so, they react in a similar manner. A friendly pat, a little praise or showing true emotions are the real meanings of reward for a Kangal. Most dogs trained by professionals, but a Kangal, by his nature, does not like to obey someone else other than his master or caretaker. Climate is an important issue for our devoted friends. If a Kangal brought from Sivas region or from some other plains to a hot or humid location, for sure summers will make him inactive and reluctant, Having inherited a culture from Asian and Anatolian plains, Kangals have been protecting flocks for thousands of years, thus Kangals are most effective during the night. A Kangals performance is not at its highest point during daytime. For those who are not familiar with Kangals this fact can create some undesirable outcomes during the daytime training sessions.

Based on these facts, one can question whether or not Kangals are hard to train? Absolutely NOT! They can be trained easily in many different fields only if the trainer is knowledgeable about his Kangalâs individual temperament, behavioral features and most importantly the breedâs general characteristics.

Main Training fields:
* Herd Shepard
* Field Protection
* Individual Protection
* Military and Police Duties
* Companion

1. Herd Shepard: Kangals, naturally, are fully harmonious with sheepâ s, goats and herds. Kangals protect the herd throughout the whole day and especially during the night. They escort the herd while they are on the move; at night they stand guard around herd barn. The female Kangals generally stay in the barn while the males are outside guarding it. The Shepard dogs are usually fed by the end of the duty, which is in the morning. By doing this a Kangal can always be vigilant while the herd graze at night. Kangal is a natural born Shepard. His instincts always lead him and they do not need extra training for guarding the herd. Three months after birth, Kangal puppies are sent to protect the herd with their parents. By the time they are one year old, they learn most of the things that a Sheppard dog is supposed to know. After this point, they are ready for their own duties. By the time they become the age of two, their physical developments are complete and they are ready to deter or fight against wild animals like wolfs and bears. At this stage, they are the ultimate protectors of the herd.

2. Field Protection: Protection is Kangals main duty. They protect everything that they think it belongs to his master or his territory. By nature they protect their masters and his belongings or family, therefore Kangals are very good Sheppardâs. His strong muscles are powerful enough to fight against wolves or even bears. His large body, powerful jaws, big teeth, loud and raucous bark are enough to deter wild animals and those people with bad intentions.

While raising a Kangal puppy, he should not be in contact with many people if he is going to be a guard dog. He should only be fed and patted by his owner or his caretaker. Strangers should not offer food and pat the puppy, other wise he may most likely become unctuous. In this case, he may not be the right kind of a guard dog. During his off-duty hours, Kangals should be kept in at least a 100m2-fenced area and not be chained. Even if Kangals property is trespassed by an intruder, a Kangal will not aim to kill the intruder. If a club or some sort of a firearm injures the Kangal, he will harm the intruder but in the end he will capture the person(s) until his master or caretaker arrives. Mean while he may pee on the intruder to denigrate. During nights, Kangals are excellent protectors and in some cases they may be even more affective than a lethal weapon.

An alert Kangalâs appearance with his large body, powerful jaws, big teeth, loud and raucous bark is enough to deter any intruder. Kangals are not likely to be deceived by food easily and this makes them unique protectors. If a Kangal is protecting a place of employment, he will recognize the employees and vehicles within a short period of time and will not threaten by barking or attacking them, but instead will watch them carefully until they leave his territory.

A Kangal on a night duty should be fed in the morning just like a Shepard Kangal. This is an Anatolian plain tradition. Scientist agree to divide the guard Kangals portions, and feed the dog 1/3 of its portions 3 hours before the duty and 2/3 of the remaining portion one hour after the end of the duty.

3. Individual Protection: Kangal is a natural born protector for his master. A Kangal protects his master with everything he has and does not mind sacrificing his own life during the process. Kangals are the only breed that would die for their masters without any training. If someone talks to the Kangalâs owner in a threatening tone of voice, then the dog listens and watches very carefully. If the owner physically gets attacked then the Kangal intervenes without a command. Additional specific training sessions are necessary if it is desired that the Kangal should attack or be stopped with specific commands.

The rest will be on the next post!!!!!!


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## MonsterMalak

A Kangal needs extra training if he is expected to protect someone other than his master or his family. On the contrary, the content of this special training is having many differences than regular guarding principles that are thought to many other breeds. Professional trainers, unless they are the owner of the dog, usually do not have influences since food is not a reward for Kangals. For a Kangal true rewards only come from his master or his caretaker, therefore, the trainer should educate the owner and cooperate.

4. Military and Police Duties: So far, this has been the most challenging and difficult off all. Usually soldiers serve 1.5 years and police personals change their service location frequently in Turkey. Kangals only obey their masters; if the owner changes frequently this confuse the dog&#8217;s behavior. This is the reason most military trainings do not result in the desired outcomes.

One should question whether or not Kangals could be good military and police dogs? Can they be easily trained for such missions? The answer is yes and great results can be maintained. Such soldier or police trainer must be a Kangal lover and must be the owner of the dogs that he is training. Puppies must be chosen from distinguished parents when they are three months old. These puppies should be physically healthy, smart and have a well appetite. If the trainer (and the owner) raised puppies to train most of problems would have already been solved. This means that they will be partners for the next 8 to 10 years together. A house with a sensible back yard must be given the trainer where he can keep his Kangal without chaining him down. During nights the dog should wander around feely. Under such circumstances, the soldier or the police trainer (and the owner) is ready to train his partner. Kangal will easily learn the basic trainings. The training sessions must take place at night or early in the morning. (Remember, chaining a Kangal down is not good for his mental health.)

Most Kangal trainings fail due to an outsider trainer&#8217;s inability or lack of communication with the dog, or unproductiveness of the daytime training sessions. By his nature, Kangal is a creature of the night and his performance peaks at nighttimes. It is quite normal to get bad results if the training sessions take place during the daytime. People who fail to train Kangals do blame this breed and give them low IQ marks. This is not only false and misleading information but also a total injustice to this breed. If the training fails, this most probably means that the trainer is not skilled enough.

5. Companion: Despite his large body, a Kangal can easily be trained and raised as a companion dog for a house with a back yard. They are fit to be life long companions to families, elderly and single individuals. If kept in the house, Kangals can learn how to use an Alaturka toilet. Part of the house can be given the dog with an easy exit to the back yard but the entrance into the house should be based on a command. This command will come handy during the shading season. Basic and advance trainings must be provided by the owner alone or with a trainer assistant together. Once Kangal takes these trainings, he will be even more bonded emotionally to his master. Female Kangals are considered to be more devoted, committed and easily trained.

Let&#8217;s not forget that for almost every European and American originated breed have been scientifically researched and their temperaments and characteristics have been determined. These dogs have been trained by taking their breed&#8217;s specific features in to consideration. Education and social heritage facilitate the learning process for us Humans. Scientists agree on the same validity for dogs as well. Puppies start their lives by imitating their parents. Just like humans, if the puppy has well-trained parents, he will have a better chance to get a more advanced training.

The essential facts about training Kangals should always be kept in mind; A Kangal is a creature of the night. His performance during the daytime is low but peaks at night. Kangals love cold weather and their movement abilities are in the minimum level during hot daytimes. They become more active towards the evening and they are the most active at nighttimes. If training sessions take place during the warm midday times, it is quite normal for a Kangal to behave unwillingly. This unwillingness has nothing to do with his IQ.

My views about &#8220;Kangal Training&#8221; are quite radical. I would like to use this opportunity to correct a few common mistakes.

A short summary: Kangals can be trained for varieties of specific duties as long as the breed&#8217;s general and individuals characteristics are taken into consideration. Some of them are:
* When choosing puppies, make sure to choose the ones who are not spoiled, frightened or chained/locked in a small place.
* Kangal is an animal of plains and must be trained in plains or similar locations.
* Kangal is a creature of the night and must be trained at night.
* Kangal must be trained by his master, live with his master and work with his master.

All the material listed and linked at this World Wide Web domain are strictly private property and copyrighted. Copyright -&#8734;-&#8734; Levent Ozturk. All rights reserved. Reproduction or use of any material, documents and related graphics and any other material from this World Wide Web server is strictly prohibited.

By Dogan Kartay,
International Symposium of Kangal dogs


I hope this might help with some of the questions about the breed. The only thing for which I might add exception, is that Daytime Training has been effective under my situation.


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## earthkitty

Well, this is all very interesting information. How often do you have litters?

I think your dogs have just moved into the #1 position in LGD desirability in my book.

Do you have anyone interested in the two boys you have left? I would think a team would be better than one.


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## MonsterMalak

EarthKitty,
I have a breeder coming down from MT to pick up 2 pups for his breeding program, and is going to take a pup to Amy in MT. Just today, another person from Oaklahoma requested one. I can transport at the same time. I do have another man in Ohio (this was the guy Amy,,haha) that I am waiting to hear back from on the last pup. 
Where do you live Earthkitty? 
It has worked out convienant that the breeder from MT is able to take the pups at one time, and saves everyone shipping cost.

But back to the other question, I have some possible breedings, but to earle to know if the females took. Trouble with summer litters is that the airlines will not ship if above 85degrees. The summer pups will have to be picked up, driven, or kept by myself and started on livestock. Then sold as started in the fall and winter. But shipping is prohibative with their size.

I personally feel the Kangal is a unique dog, capable of protecting a family, home, farm, and all that lives on it. My neighbor across the road with 40 acres of goats stopped loosing goats when i got my Kangals. He jokes about the protection payment. Says that my dogs are doing a better job from outside of his pasture than when he ran Pyrenees/Anatolians with his goats. He dos'nt even bother with dogs anymore.


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## horsepoor21

Wow ,look at the collar on that dog ! 

GOATRESS > I spoke with Ed on the phone for quite some time , what a neat man ! I am excited to meet him and it's so good know I have someone so knowledgable about the breed close by , just in case ! He also knows so much about Maremmas which is great because we have one of them too .LOL


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## Goatress

Yes Ed rescued Maremmas for a long time. He has quite the menagerie up there of dogs too! I talked to him on the phone last night too. I'm glad you are close too he'll be able to help you with questions about your Kangal pup. MM and Ed have had them longer than me and are more experienced with Kangals. Really glad you got one of MM's pups!


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## Haven

Wow, beautiful dogs you have there. That is a serious collar in the picture.

In the past I have seen a lot of the native Kangal videos that people from their homeland have posted on You Tube, and I have to admit that the way they are presented in most of the videos scared me. Seems many are shown lunging and trying to attack like viscious mankilling monsters. 

As an expert on the breed, how do you feel about those vids? Are there people breeding them for their macho ego, like in the USA with what has happened to the Pitbull?


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## earthkitty

MonsterMalak said:


> EarthKitty,
> I have a breeder coming down from MT to pick up 2 pups for his breeding program, and is going to take a pup to Amy in MT. Just today, another person from Oaklahoma requested one. I can transport at the same time. I do have another man in Ohio (this was the guy Amy,,haha) that I am waiting to hear back from on the last pup.
> Where do you live Earthkitty?
> It has worked out convienant that the breeder from MT is able to take the pups at one time, and saves everyone shipping cost.
> 
> But back to the other question, I have some possible breedings, but to earle to know if the females took. Trouble with summer litters is that the airlines will not ship if above 85degrees. The summer pups will have to be picked up, driven, or kept by myself and started on livestock. Then sold as started in the fall and winter. But shipping is prohibative with their size.
> 
> I personally feel the Kangal is a unique dog, capable of protecting a family, home, farm, and all that lives on it. My neighbor across the road with 40 acres of goats stopped loosing goats when i got my Kangals. He jokes about the protection payment. Says that my dogs are doing a better job from outside of his pasture than when he ran Pyrenees/Anatolians with his goats. He dos'nt even bother with dogs anymore.


I'm in Kansas, about 20 minutes north of the OK border. Picking up or meeting halfway or catching you on your way to somewhere else will always be a possibility.

Please let me know if you are expecting another litter. I would expect to purchase two, so theat they can work as a team. I will need time, however, to convince my husband that LGD are not just another pet. To me, they are essential to a homestead for protection of all investments. My guns only work if we are around.


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## Wolf Flower

Haven said:


> In the past I have seen a lot of the native Kangal videos that people from their homeland have posted on You Tube, and I have to admit that the way they are presented in most of the videos scared me. Seems many are shown lunging and trying to attack like viscious mankilling monsters.
> 
> As an expert on the breed, how do you feel about those vids? Are there people breeding them for their macho ego, like in the USA with what has happened to the Pitbull?


In their native land, they are used for dogfighting, so, yeah.


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## MonsterMalak

*EarthKitty*, I will be through this coming Sat. But if not ready, I will let you know when the next are born. Please send me an Email with contact info. I am making a list. My next litters will be Half Boz Guregh, Half Kangal. Possibly have one bred now. Or she could just be getting fat,,,,haha.
I would recommend not getting two pups at one time. Much better to train one by itself, or with an older LGD. Two pups are like two teenage boys, asking for trouble.

*Wolf Flower*, As far as the Videos, I would have to agree with you to a point. One MAIN point though,,,,, NOT MANKILLING MONSTERS. They get those shots by facing them off to other dogs. The Kangal and Gureg Boz are LGD's. So have a low Prey Drive or agression. All their action is based on defense. In Turkey, during the fights, almost anything is accepted, except bringing a child of the family to the fight. Considered illegal. They say a Kangal will only fight to defend itself if the owner is not standing by them. They fight to defend.
Also, the culture of fighting the dogs in Turkey is thousands of years old. Used as a tool to select LGD qualities. Part of their existence or survival. Not that western culture hasnt bled into their practices. But typically, the dogs are just fought until submission is shown. Injuries are avoided if possible. They are broken up if one is dominated. I do not condone fighting, but understand the historical development of their culture.


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## HOTW

Wow lovely dogs! OUldtht I couldmaybe one day !!


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## Haven

MonsterMalak said:


> *EarthKitty*, Also, the culture of fighting the dogs in Turkey is thousands of years old. Used as a tool to select LGD qualities. Part of their existence or survival. Not that western culture hasnt bled into their practices. But typically, the dogs are just fought until submission is shown. Injuries are avoided if possible. They are broken up if one is dominated. I do not condone fighting, but understand the historical development of their culture.


Ahh thank you. Always fascinating to learn the history of breeds.


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## MonsterMalak

I am back up to 2 male pups. The economic slowdown has contributed to a buyers need to delay a purchase. Sad to say, but the slowdown is affecting people in all segments of life. Killing me with 4 kids when I go to the grocery store!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Goatress

Brian, I think the delisting of wolves in ID and MT is going to open up a whole new opportunity to market these Kangals because they can in the right numbers, effectively stop a wolf. Hunts have already been scheduled in ID and MT. Now a rancher won't go to prison if he sees a wolf kill his LGD, he can shoot it - before I know from a rancher in ID, he told me it was instant jail time if you shot a wolf even in self defence, or if you caught it killing stock or an LGD...just ridiculous....this change has been long overdue. :bouncy:

It is now time for ranchers to think out of the box. They have to run the right number of dogs. Combine breeds and run together if necessary. I am talking these huge sheep outfits running open range, 1,000's of head.

I've got two of my half Kangal pups going to one out of Elko. It is going to be fun to see how they fare against lion and coyotes. It is huge outfit, open range, these dogs will live with herders and sheep on the wagon, out there, full time. Running with Maremmas and I think now she has an Akbash or two as well. I am anxious to see how they fare.


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## earthkitty

Goatress and MM, let me ask you a question. Everything I am doing here is to preserve various seeds and breeds. Why is it a good thing to cross a Kangal with something else, rather than keep the breed pure?


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## Goatress

This last litter, and the first litter, were crosses that produced superb working dogs with hybrid vigor. I also didn't have a Kangal stud. That has changed. Next time breeding will be with another Kangal.

I see the pros of crosses because some purebred breeds in this country have been AKC'd to death to where they don't work right anymore. They have health and conformation issues. A crossbred LGD can perform as well, sometimes even better, than a purebred that has had the instinct bred out of him because of too close of inbreeding, linebreeding, etc. 

In this country some Kangal gene pools are even getting too close. 

If this cross had produced duds would have never repeated it. The pups have been exceptional. They are after all, 3/4 turkish breeds with a 1/4 maremma. 

Preserving heritage breeds is great, I have no issue with it. Where I do see benefits of new blood is in lines that have again, been so close bred for generations that they are lacking size, vigor, have health issues, etc. Just like in cattle, back in the 1980's there was a big move to crossing your traditional breeds like herefords with beefmasters, brahmas, etc. Wow, did we get some incredible calves off those first crosses. New blood, vigor, size......it was a great thing. I think the Angus craze now is prime example of too much of one thing: cows with major calving issues, bad mothering instinct.....lots of guys are going back to crosses again because of this.


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## lockhart76

MM and goatress, how will your dogs fare in really cold weather? like northern saskatchewan, canada-winter for five months-temp at minus 40 with additional windchill? will they bed down with my cows and sheep by a bale and make it?
I am familiar with large dogs-we own irish wolfhounds, anatolian shepherds and great pyrs- what about joint problems? longevity? how is their metabolism/food consumption?

Fascinated by the kangals and your dogs mm (didnt want to spell them) interested to learn more and explore the possibility of adding some as wolves seem to be ranging further and further south (from the forest which covers most of northern saskatchewan) to come closer to our farm. love to hear from both of you as getting any kangal type dog or anatolian here was almost impossible.


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## Goatress

lockhart76 said:


> MM and goatress, how will your dogs fare in really cold weather? like northern saskatchewan, canada-winter for five months-temp at minus 40 with additional windchill? will they bed down with my cows and sheep by a bale and make it?
> I am familiar with large dogs-we own irish wolfhounds, anatolian shepherds and great pyrs- what about joint problems? longevity? how is their metabolism/food consumption?
> 
> Fascinated by the kangals and your dogs mm (didnt want to spell them) interested to learn more and explore the possibility of adding some as wolves seem to be ranging further and further south (from the forest which covers most of northern saskatchewan) to come closer to our farm. love to hear from both of you as getting any kangal type dog or anatolian here was almost impossible.


Hi lockhart76,

How would Kangals handle the cold winters in NV? That was my initial concern too, until my first Kangal Elmas arrived from MT, where she had been raised in -40 + wind chill on a ranch. She had a thick wool 'blanket' for a coat. The Kangal is actually one of the most cold-hardy breeds out there - Turkey has bitterly cold winters - and they develop a very thick undercoat that keeps them warm. I know a cattle rancher in MT who says his Kangals are also adapted well to his winters. Like the Kangal, the Boz has an incredibly high pain tolerance, and develops a thick winter coat. 

I can imagine getting one up there is difficult if not impossible. Getting a Kangal here in the states has been very difficult for many years due to the stranglehold the KDCA has had on the breed but that is breaking down very quickly now as breeders are importing their own dogs over and making good pups available to working homes that aren't overpriced as in the past. They were so high priced before, most working ranchers would not even try to get one. But that is changing fast.

I will be swapping bloodlines with a big breeder in Mexico with some incredible Kangals next year when my female is bred to a Turkish import back east (AI). The Mexican breeder is taking a pup or two and in return I'll either take a pup from him or AI service... I know MM is doing the same (with the Mexican Kangal kennel). Plus MonsterMalak is bringing over Kangals and Boz regularly now. There are 7 Boz Shepherds here now, two more just came in about a week ago from Germany.

We work through a contact here who has several contacts in Turkey, and he is Turkish himself. Getting them out of Turkey is not impossible but it is costly and very complicated, which is why we work through someone who has done it for years, and he literally knows every Kangal in this country, if it came from Turkey, he knows who it is, who owns it and it's bloodline. I was fortunate in that a Turkish breeder contacted me first otherwise I would have never gotten the opportunities I have now, to get these great dogs over here.

My personal 'dream team' of LGD's would be running Kangals backed up by some Boz and/or Spanish Mastiffs. I don't think any predator around could get through a defense line up like that. Especially wolf packs. It is not just the breed you run, but the numbers; so many people don't 'get' that. A single dog or even a pair, or three, is no match for a pack of Canadian gray crossbreds. You have to fight numbers with numbers. So many people underdog their operation. And suffer losses and wonder 'why?' - well so many times - it has nothing to do with the breed of LGD but the lack of enough of them. I think if you ran enough of anything, you'd always have a better chance at protecting not just your stock, but your dogs would have a fighting chance against wolves instead of being slaughtered.

I am also a proponent of running LGD's outside with spiked collars. My friend makes them. She is launching a trial of sorts, testing them on young pups (mine, grin...) and we are going to see and document how dogs learn to play fight with them, how they adapt to them, etc.

I E-mailed MM today and told him to read this thread and I hope he will answer too and give you some more background and info. He has had Kangals longer than I and can give you good insights. Please keep in touch with us. MM has litters coming this year and I have one planned for spring, you will have ample opportunities to get Kangal or Boz/Kangals I think. Best wishes. PS: Somewhere on this forum already I think, MM launched into a long discussion about the superior vigor and vitality of Kangal and Boz dogs, how they lack so many of the problems associated with giant breeds; how because of Turkish breeders' theory that 'only the strong survive' and litters are not pampered, that the ones that do make it are very tough with no health issues. Now, from what I have seen/read/heard/researched, there are some Kangals here in the states that have been 'bred down' so to speak and some lines that have lost some of the vigor and aggressive guarding instinct. This is precisely what MM and I are fighting, we are trying to keep the breed to its original Turkish standard of toughness, courage, stamina...etc. The KDCA is blindly against any fighting bloodlines in Kangals well the entire breed has a background in fighting, so you can't get away from that, but they'd like to....but in trying to keep that out, they are not doing the breed any favors. I do not mean, by not allowing fighting here, I mean, by being prejudiced against Kangals from known fighting bloodlines. BTW those are the Kangals needless to say most capable of killing a wolf, same with the Boz dogs. Their courage is legendary. As for metabolism, I see no particular extremes in either breed, what they eat is comparable to my other LGD's (Except Pyrenean Mastiff now there is a breed that can eat!). As for life span - very good, there are working Boz in Turkey 12 and older I have seen photos of them. Still guarding sheep. I am sure MM can add even more to this.


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## lockhart76

Wow goatress, so great that someone replied. I was waiting eagerly to hear from you. As I read your response I was just nodding in agreement the whole time, be it regarding running dog numbers, the need to preserve a roughn-ready guardian type etc. etc. I have already read MMs thread you referred to and agree wholeheartedly. 
My wife and I are also exploring spiked thick collars and will likely outfit several of our more roaming/aggressive dogs with them. One of our Anatolian Shepherds, Abbey, was caught alone on patrol the other night and was severely chewed on the upper and lower neck/throat. Many lacerations, several deep punctures, and a lot of that dead skin scarring that occurs when something grabs a mouthful of a dogs neck skin and rips it away. We took her to our vet, shaved her/cleaned her up and she is now on antibiotics and painkillers. She will likely heal completely and right now is soaking up the extra food and affection as she recuperates. We are thinking a pack of coyotes, a bear, a badger, or perhaps a wolf but do not know for certain. Whatever it was it was vicious and quite large or Abbey would not have been so chewed. She has regularly killed coyotes solo so she is experienced. Despite the mixed reviews people on this site have, I know for certain that they would have assisted Abbey greatly, esp. as there were no other marks on her. My only concern is will the collars catch on brush or wire fences? We wear thick nylon ones that are bright orange and reflective (as we are near a road and in prime hunting country) but they are quite loose and can come off if they need to. I would be devastated if a dog choked to death. your thoughts? What of the collars from that turkish collar site? have you tried them? they look like they could be worn loose and would still be very brutal if an attacker bit them? The ones your friend is making are definitely the caddilac of collars and I think we will have to try some. I will do much to assist our dogs in any way we can.
ALso, are you or MM interested in/have the capability to ship straws of semen? If getting a dog or two up here are to expensive, my wife and I would like to breed our anatolians with your bloodlines? what do you think? also, here in saskatchewan predators, esp. coyotes are the number one limiting factor to sheep ranching profitability and have put many smaller operations out of business. We would like to address this by becoming breeders of Kangals. We have a great deal of experience with large breeds and guardians and I have always been fascinated by the kangals and now the Boz which is new to me but similar. Would you or MM be interested in partnering with us to accomplish this goal? You both seem to have the same overall idea as we do as to what a true guardian should be like and your dogs exemplify this. To many producers up here pick up a great pyr cross from a neighbours litter with no working lineage and then wonder why the coyotes are having a field day! this is a problem we would like to stay on top of (and also bears and wolves as I know they will be a problem in the near future) and help others with. Again, waiting eagerly to hear from both of you. TTFN


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## Goatress

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Above is Duman, a Boz Shepherd, who just sold to a man in S. Korea for $48,000 I think it was, he will be used at stud there. You cannot see his collar that well in this shot, but I have seen it in other photos, and it is quite formidable a collar, and worn very snug on his neck; they wear those collars snug, over there, not loose. I have read in an academic paper where the author was a proponent of loose collars however I do not agree with her; I think they should be worn snug, not so tight as to choke, but snug so they don't come off. Because, if you kept them loose enough to where the dog's head could come out of it, I think it would defeat the purpose...and if in a fight with a wolf/bear/predator, the collar would not do it's job if it was flopping around so much and so loose that the predator could get in there and get a hold of some neck. I am most anxious to begin our testing of collars on young pups and we plan to document what our findings are, how they learn to use the collar, etc. 

I think it can be done. You think about search and rescue dogs, when the handler puts the collar/brace on the dog, he knows it is time to go to work and search. Likewise I have a theory that one can train an LGD to 'know' when his collar goes on, it is time to guard, and, he will learn how to use it like a tool, and use it to protect himself. A lot of trial and error I am sure down the road but I'm anxious to see what we learn about how the dogs act with and without them on.

I am so glad your dog survived a tough encounter. No telling what got to it...

I have not bought spiked collars from the turkish collar dealer here, but have bought some of the thick leather ones with bells. They honestly did not last that long, too many other dogs playing and chewing on them, and the sinew type thread they used to keep bells on did not last long. Which was not good considering as much as they cost per collar....

I was excited to discover a vet here in town who is most willing to do AI services for me, including drawing straws from males, AI'ing my females, and for very reasonable prices. I know MM has capacity for this as well. I think that will definitely be available from both of us as things get rolling here. I know Brian (MM) is definitely going to be doing it, and collecting straws from his prize males. 

As predator issues grow, there must be a means by which ranchers and farmers can still survive in the business. But wholesale slaughter of all predators is not the answer. I think using the right number of LGD's and breed combinations is part of the solution; also, trying fladry and of course, checking on the herd regularly, and keeping a presence there, is more effective ways to discourage predators. There are so many great LGD breeds out there, even ones no one has discussed on this board. I think each breed has strengths (and weak spots). 

Personal preference plays such a big role too. I know lots of people are down on Pyrs, but they were my first LGD's and I will always have a spot for them in my breeding program and heart; a good Pyr is a great dog...and there are still out there, plenty of good working lines that have not been ruined yet. Not everyone has major large predator issues where they need a pack of giant LGD's to keep things safe. Likewise, many people on this board run crossbred dogs of two or more breeds, and they excel and do a magnificent job, and the hybrid vigor one obtains from crossing cannot be discounted or discredited. No one's needs will ever be the same as the next guy's, and I really endeavor to keep an open mind about LGD breeds, and what is best for each particular situation. I think as long as folks keep open minds about that, and are willing to try something different, if what they are doing now isn't working, that is a victory right there.


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## MonsterMalak

LockHart, Please excuse the short reply, but I am at work. Internet out in the country is very slow. Plus, Brenda has answered everything very well.

I would like to touch on the KDCA Kangal Monopoly thing. I feel their JUSTIFICATION for not allowing anyone from the outside to register Turkish imports is strictly the monopoly issue. Every Kangal Breeder in Turkey has ties to the Dog fighting culture in Turkey. This is part of a culture developed over eons. Many of the dogs THEY brought over, to incorporate into their stock came DIRECT from some of the BIGGEST DOGFIGHTERS in Turkey. And AI came from Sires from some of the Largest Turkish Dogfighters in Europe. So to claim they do not want to allow any Dangerous Fighting Blood into the Kangal Genepool is JUST an excuse to maintain their MONOPOLY.
Enough Said!!!!!!
The Breeder we have chosen to Import Stock from is an advocate to preserving several of the endangered breeds in Turkey, including the Tazi (sighthound hunting dog). He collects the best stock in his travels, breeds and test them for all the abilities needed. He places hundreds of dogs out with the Shepherds, either to breed with their dogs, or to provide them with dogs. In this situation, the dogs get tested in many different situations. When puppies are born, he is able to choose future breeding stock for his program. He has over 200 dogs (Mostly Boz) placed with Shepherds in Livestock Guardian Testing arrangements. In these places, they are raised with the tough selection (some fighting), extreme environment, hard work, and facing heavy predator pressure.
Imagine the ability to test and select from that many dogs as a tool for improvement of a breed. A far cry from our breeding almost every pup out of a litter. This is one reason we chose to get dogs from this breeder, and will continue to import stock to keep the quality up. Many of the USA bloodlines have become soft, and not able to truely fight wolves or have the drive to try.
The Boz are a Kangal on Steroids, stronger temperment, increased physical ability and size. All without compromising their Low Prey drive and intelligence. 
The legend in Turkey is that their Large Fierce Dogs of the region came from a cross of a LION bred to a WOLF. If you see a BOZ in Defense Mode, you would understand the legend. Shocks even myself!!! 
My 10 month old pup was defending my son from a donkey that was running up on them. Monster stood up with his paws reached above his head (he is 6 foot tall) and let out a loud deep long bark. The donkey dug in to stop quickly, then ran. Monster then pressed up against my son to get him out of the neighbors pasture.

Please send me an Email, and we can discuss future breeding in Canada.


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