# When Muslims betray non-Muslim friends and neighbors



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Something to think about for those who say they have Muslim friends or neighbors or think Muslims are nice people.

When Muslims Betray Non-Muslim Friends and Neighbors
Raymond Ibrahim 
July 8, 2015 


Let believers not take for friends and allies infidels rather than believers: and whoever does this shall have no relationship left with Allahâunless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions â Koran 3:28


Days ago, after the Islamic State [IS] entered the Syrian city of HassakÃ¨, prompting a mass exodus of Christians, a familiar, though often overlooked scene, took place: many otherwise ânormalâ Muslims joined ranks with IS, instantly turning on their longtime Christian neighbors.

This is the third category of Muslims that lurks between âmoderatesâ and âradicalsâ: âsleepers,â Muslims who appear âmoderateâ but who are merely waiting for circumstances to turn to Islamâs advantage before they join the jihad; Muslims who are waiting for the rewards of jihad to become greater than the risks.

There is no lack of examples of these types of Muslims. The following are testimonials from non-Muslims, mostly Christian refuges from those regions of Iraq and Syria now under Islamic State (or other jihadi) control. Consider what they say about their longtime Sunni neighbors who appeared âmoderateââor at least nonviolentâbut who, once the jihad came to town, exposed their true colors:

Georgios, a man from the ancient Christian town of Maâloulaâone of the few areas in the world where the language of Christ was still spokenâtold of how Muslim neighbors he knew all his life turned on the Christians after al-Nusra, another jihadi outfit, invaded in 2013:

We knew our Muslim neighbours all our lives. Yes, we knew the Diab family were quite radical, but we thought they would never betray us. We ate with them. We are one people.

A few of the Diab family had left months ago and we guessed they were with the Nusra [al-Qaeda front]. But their wives and children were still here. We looked after them. Then, two days before the Nusra attacked, the families suddenly left the town. We didnât know why. And then our neighbours led our enemies in among us.

The Christian man explained with disbelief how he saw a young member of the Diab family whom he knew from youth holding a sword and leading foreign jihadis to Christian homes. Continues Georgios:

We had excellent relations. It never occurred to us that Muslim neighbours would betray us. We all said âplease let this town live in peace â we donât have to kill each other.â But now there is bad blood. They brought in the Nusra to throw out the Christians and get rid of us forever. Some of the Muslims who lived with us are good people but I will never trust 90 per cent of them again.

A teenage Christian girl from Homs, Syriaâwhich once had a Christian population of approximately 80,000, but which is now reportedly zeroârelates her story:

We left because they were trying to kill us. . . . They wanted to kill us because we were Christians. They were calling us ------s [infidels], even little children saying these things. Those who were our neighbors turned against us. At the end, when we ran away, we went through balconies. We did not even dare go out on the street in front of our house. Iâve kept in touch with the few Christian friends left back home, but I cannot speak to my Muslim friends any more. I feel very sorry about that. (Crucified Again, p. 207)

When asked who exactly threatened and drove Christians out of Mosul, which fell to the Islamic State a year ago, another anonymous Christian refugee responded:

We left Mosul because ISIS came to the city. The [Sunni Muslim] people of Mosul embraced ISIS and drove the Christians out of the city. When ISIS entered Mosul, the people hailed them and drove out the Christiansâ¦.

The people who embraced ISIS, the people who lived there with usâ¦ Yes, my neighbors. Our neighbors and other people threatened us. They said: âLeave before ISIS get you.â What does that mean? Where would we go?â¦ Christians have no support in Iraq. Whoever claims to be protecting the Christians is a liar. A liar!

Nor is such Muslim treachery limited to Christians. Other âinfidels,â Yazidis for example, have experienced the same betrayal. Discussing IS invasion of his village, a 68-year-old Yazidi man who managed to flee the bloody offensiveâwhich included the slaughter of many Yazidi men and enslavement of women and childrenâsaid:

The (non-Iraqi) jihadists were Afghans, Bosnians, Arabs and even Americans and British fightersâ¦. But the worst killings came from the people living among us, our (Sunni) Muslim neighboursâ¦. The Metwet, Khawata and Kejala tribesâthey were all our neighbours. But they joined the IS, took heavy weapons from them, and informed on who was Yazidi and who was not. Our neighbours made the IS takeover possible.

Likewise, watch this 60 Minute interview with a Yazidi woman. When asked why people she knew her whole life would suddenly join IS and savagely turn on her people, she replied:

I canât tell you exactly, but it has to be religion. It has to be religion. They constantly asked us to convert, but we refused. Before this, they never mentioned it. Prior, we thought of each other as family. But I say, it has to be religion.


http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/...and-neighbors/


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Maybe you can ask your Polish friends what their families did during WWII. http://www.timesofisrael.com/new-book-examines-poles-who-killed-jews-during-wwii/


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> Maybe you can ask your Polish friends what their families did during WWII. http://www.timesofisrael.com/new-book-examines-poles-who-killed-jews-during-wwii/


So ISIS are Nazis? The Iraqis of Mosul are Poles of WWII? 
According to my research, the people of Poland did not greet the Nazis as heros/liberators.

You are comparing apples to goat turds.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Riverdale said:


> So ISIS are Nazis? The Iraqis of Mosul are Poles of WWII?
> According to my research, the people of Poland did not greet the Nazis as heros/liberators.
> 
> You are comparing apples to goat turds.


What I'm comparing is the reaction of two groups of people in different times in history. Many Poles seemingly took the opportunity of Nazi invasion to strengthen their ties to the new rulers or to redress whatever long, deep seated grievances they had to their neighbors. It wasn't a new or isolated phenomena then nor is it one now. It shouldn't have been excused and hidden then nor should it now. It should be fought against and loudly denounced by all. But it won't stop it from happening somewhere, to some group who thought themselves safe, sometime in the future.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

The bible can be cherry picked by christians to say pretty much the same thing. Muslims bad, christians good. Blah blah blah 

It's all in the interpretation, thankfully (for some) the bible and quran were deliberately written to be so vague that it could mean many many things, especially if the reader _wants_ it to mean something. Both are similar to bad poetry in that respect.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Riverdale said:


> So ISIS are Nazis? The Iraqis of Mosul are Poles of WWII?
> According to my research, the people of Poland did not greet the Nazis as heros/liberators.
> 
> You are comparing apples to goat turds.


Do not expect much else from the liberal islamic apologists. I started a thread once questioning this practice but it was instantly shot down and put under perpetual moderator review, i.e. politically censored.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

JJ Grandits said:


> Do not expect much else from the liberal islamic apologists. I started a thread once questioning this practice but it was instantly shot down and put under perpetual moderator review, i.e. politically censored.


Where is anyone apologizing for muslims? Can you point it out please? Thank you.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> Where is anyone apologizing for muslims? Can you point it out please? Thank you.


Uh, you're kidding right? Come on. Your a pretty intelligent person. Lets not play that game.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> The bible can be cherry picked by christians to say pretty much the same thing. Muslims bad, christians good. Blah blah blah
> 
> It's all in the interpretation, thankfully (for some) the bible and quran were deliberately written to be so vague that it could mean many many things, especially if the reader _wants_ it to mean something. Both are similar to bad poetry in that respect.


It only took 5 posts to change the topic to how bad the Bible is. Can you show us where Christian communities and targeting and killing those of other faiths? If not, your post is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. I really think it should be declared "not required" by TPTB but I ain't going to report it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

poppy said:


> It only took 5 posts to change the topic to how bad the Bible is. Can you show us where Christian communities and targeting and killing those of other faiths? If not, your post is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. I really think it should be declared "not required" by TPTB but I ain't going to report it.


I'm sorry that is how you decided to interpret my post.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

JJ Grandits said:


> Uh, you're kidding right? Come on. Your a pretty intelligent person. Lets not play that game.


Not a game. Please point out where anyone has apologized for muslims. 

I don't believe in god or religion, I'm certainly not going to apologize for either one.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> Where is anyone apologizing for muslims? Can you point it out please? Thank you.


Yes, you are apologizing for the Muslims mentioned in the article by making excuses for them. It's the old moral relativism red herring used by the left over and over. Your goal is to say the Bible is bad too and thereby make people thing the Muslims really aren't worse.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

poppy said:


> Yes, you are apologizing for the Muslims mentioned in the article by making excuses for them. It's the old moral relativism red herring used by the left over and over. Your goal is to say the Bible is bad too and thereby make people thing the Muslims really aren't worse.


Again, where did I apologize for muslims? I compared the bible and quran, both are fictional works that can be interpreted to mean anything that the reader wants, especially if they want it to mean something specific that supports their agenda or life view. 

I don't believe in the christian god/bible or the muslim god/quran and I'm certainly not apologizing for either one.


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## trulytricia (Oct 11, 2002)

I cannot remember if we ever discussed this article before but I will put the link here My Grandmothers Secret

http://www.wnd.com/2015/04/the-armenian-genocide-and-my-grandmothers-secret/


I really believe everyone should read this fascinating account. Mind control, the destructive force of conditioning. It's chilling and we need to be aware of it.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

poppy said:


> It only took 5 posts to change the topic to how bad the Bible is. Can you show us where Christian communities and targeting and killing those of other faiths? If not, your post is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. I really think it should be declared "not required" by TPTB but I ain't going to report it.


If you believe Catholics are Christians then I've shown where it's happened in the not too distant past. The Catholic Church apologized a few years ago for their complicity in these actions and priests at the time speaking to their congregations fomenting such actions. Hopefully it won't take the Muslim sects involved quite so long to admit their errors.


But my point wasn't to point a finger at other religions or excuse any. It was to point out that people are people and have acted the same in the past and posit that they will in the future. Demonizing ones enemies by publishing stories like this serve a purpose. Sometimes it's best to step back and ask who's.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

trulytricia said:


> I cannot remember if we ever discussed this article before but I will put the link here My Grandmothers Secret
> 
> http://www.wnd.com/2015/04/the-armenian-genocide-and-my-grandmothers-secret/
> 
> ...


This is what happens when you don't have guns.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

trulytricia said:


> I cannot remember if we ever discussed this article before but I will put the link here My Grandmothers Secret
> 
> http://www.wnd.com/2015/04/the-armenian-genocide-and-my-grandmothers-secret/
> 
> ...


This pretty much sums up my opinion on religion. All religion.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Catholics have no control over what the heads of the Catholic Church apologize for. Catholics are some of the most sincere Christians that I know and they never try to convert anyone. The examples of the way they live their lives and the good that they do for other people less fortunate says it all.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

mmoetc said:


> If you believe Catholics are Christians then I've shown where it's happened in the not too distant past. The Catholic Church apologized a few years ago for their complicity in these actions and priests at the time speaking to their congregations fomenting such actions. Hopefully it won't take the Muslim sects involved quite so long to admit their errors. *The christians had their time too. They finally realized the evil in going to war and committing atrocities in the name of their god and religion, what, about 500 years ago, give or take? Yet the undercurrent of their feeling of superiority over others of different or no faiths still exists. How long will it take the muslims? Since their by-laws actually requires it, I'm thinking not any time soon.*
> 
> 
> But my point wasn't to point a finger at other religions or excuse any. It was to point out that people are people and have acted the same in the past and posit that they will in the future. Demonizing ones enemies by publishing stories like this serve a purpose. Sometimes it's best to step back and ask who's.


IMO the Poles, French and others who sided with the Nazis after invasion did so more out of self preservation than any hatred toward the Jews. Surely there were those who actively joined the persecution, but many just kept their mouth shut and didn't oppose it, out of fear for their lives. There were also many who secretly resisted and tried to help Jews, at their own risk. Surely there are some muslims who go along out of fear, but how many actualy risk secretly helping christians? The Nazis were girl scouts compared to what the muslims will do to anyone caught helping their chosen enemies.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

poppy said:


> It only took 5 posts to change the topic to how bad the Bible is. Can you show us where Christian communities and targeting and killing those of other faiths? If not, your post is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. I really think it should be declared "not required" by TPTB but I ain't going to report it.


Might as well just ignore the non-conservative posters. All will say that christians are just as bad then say they're not defending the islamists. Same ol', same ol'.

We show links, they whine. WBC will be brought up. B/c a dozen kooks who've not killed anyone will be compared to a couple billion Islamists, most of who have turned out to be radical or nearly so.

My disclaimer: NOT ALL MUSLIMS.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

gapeach said:


> Catholics have no control over what the heads of the Catholic Church apologize for. Catholics are some of the most sincere Christians that I know and they never try to convert anyone. The examples of the way they live their lives and the good that they do for other people less fortunate says it all.


I wish that I were confident enough to make such absolute statements. I know many catholics who are good people, and some do indeed try to convert others. Sure, they are nowhere near as rabid as some other sects, like in the South for example, but the most evil person that I've ever met claimed to be a devout catholic. Then we've also had a few catholics in recent years who weren't exactly living their lives the way you say. What do we call them? Oh yeah, priests.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Agriculture said:


> I wish that I were confident enough to make such absolute statements. I know many catholics who are good people, and some do indeed try to convert others. Sure, they are nowhere near as rabid as some other sects, like in the South for example, but the most evil person that I've ever met claimed to be a devout catholic. Then we've also had a few catholics in recent years who weren't exactly living their lives the way you say. What do we call them? Oh yeah, priests.


You cannot condemn all Catholics for the behavior of the priests. I'm sorry that happened to you by a supposed devout Catholics.
I feel that mine and my husband's life has been made better by our friendships with Catholics. Next door neighbors and many of the Catholics we know on these islands had grandparents who settled here from Ireland. They are great people and very devout about their daily communion and their faith.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> You cannot condemn all Catholics for the behavior of the priests. I'm sorry that happened to you by a supposed devout Catholics.
> I feel that mine and my husband's life has been made better by our friendships with Catholics. Next door neighbors and many of the Catholics we know on these islands had grandparents who settled here from Ireland. They are great people and very devout about their daily communion and their faith.


Fantastic! Now substitute muslims for catholics, and priests for extremests in your first sentence.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Muslims don't like Atheists either.

A MOB attacked Alexander Aan even before an Indonesian court in June jailed him for two and a half years for âinciting religious hatredâ. His crime was to write âGod does not existâ on a Facebook group he had founded for atheists in Minang, a province of the worldâs most populous Muslim nation. Like most non-believers in Islamic regions, he was brought up as a Muslim. And like many who profess godlessness openly, he has been punished.
In a handful of majority-Muslim countries atheists can live safely, if quietly; Turkey is one example, Lebanon another. None makes atheism a specific crime. But none gives atheists legal protection or recognition. Indonesia, for example, demands that people declare themselves as one of six religions; atheism and agnosticism do not count. Egyptâs draft constitution makes room for only three faiths: Christianity, Judaism and Islam.


_Sharia _law, which covers only Muslims unless incorporated into national law, assumes people are born into their parentsâ religion. Thus ex-Muslim atheists are guilty of apostasyâa _hudud _crime against God, like adultery and drinking alcohol. Potential sanctions can be severe: eight states, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, Mauritania and Sudan have the death penalty on their statute books for such offences
http://www.economist.com/news/inter...ore-outspoken-tolerance-still-rare-no-god-not

The penalty for apostasy in Islam makes the Westboro Baptist Church look like children of the Enlightenment.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

gapeach said:


> Muslims don't like Atheists either.
> 
> A MOB attacked Alexander Aan even before an Indonesian court in June jailed him for two and a half years for &#8220;inciting religious hatred&#8221;. His crime was to write &#8220;God does not exist&#8221; on a Facebook group he had founded for atheists in Minang, a province of the world&#8217;s most populous Muslim nation. Like most non-believers in Islamic regions, he was brought up as a Muslim. And like many who profess godlessness openly, he has been punished.
> In a handful of majority-Muslim countries atheists can live safely, if quietly; Turkey is one example, Lebanon another. None makes atheism a specific crime. But none gives atheists legal protection or recognition. Indonesia, for example, demands that people declare themselves as one of six religions; atheism and agnosticism do not  count. Egypt&#8217;s draft constitution makes room for only three faiths: Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
> ...


Lots of Christians don't like Atheists. It has been made abundantly clear right on the forum.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> If you believe Catholics are Christians then I've shown where it's happened in the not too distant past. The Catholic Church apologized a few years ago for their complicity in these actions and priests at the time speaking to their congregations fomenting such actions. Hopefully it won't take the Muslim sects involved quite so long to admit their errors.
> 
> 
> But my point wasn't to point a finger at other religions or excuse any. It was to point out that people are people and have acted the same in the past and posit that they will in the future. Demonizing ones enemies by publishing stories like this serve a purpose. Sometimes it's best to step back and ask who's.


Better to ask how to keep it from happening than simply say everyone is guilty at on time or another so get over it. And you can't ask how to keep it from happening if you refuse to have it spoken.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Agriculture said:


> IMO the Poles, French and others who sided with the Nazis after invasion did so more out of self preservation than any hatred toward the Jews. Surely there were those who actively joined the persecution, but many just kept their mouth shut and didn't oppose it, out of fear for their lives. There were also many who secretly resisted and tried to help Jews, at their own risk. Surely there are some muslims who go along out of fear, but how many actualy risk secretly helping christians? The Nazis were girl scouts compared to what the muslims will do to anyone caught helping their chosen enemies.


Maybe you can explain who these people feared in 1946. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom

The French government operated its own camps during WWII. Some acted out of fear for what might happen to them, some because of deep seated hatred. The same festering hatred of other groups, religous, ethnic, nationalist, et al, that never totally disappear and just need the right spark to ignite. Most didn't act at all allowing others to do evil things.

I don't know who or if the the Ann franks and Oskar Schindlers might be in this conflict. We didn't find out about them until after the fact either.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

painterswife said:


> Lots of Christians don't like Atheists. It has been made abundantly clear right on the forum.


It isn't atheists we dislike. It's their habit of ridiculing Christians by snide remarks such as "people who believe in fairy tales". We also do not dislike Muslims. It's their constant rants about Christians and others being infidels and watching them kill innocent people who disagree with them that we find problems with. If our reasons for disliking them were due to them having different beliefs than us, we would also dislike Hindus and many other religions.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> Maybe you can explain who these people feared in 1946. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom
> 
> The French government operated its own camps during WWII. Some acted out of fear for what might happen to them, some because of deep seated hatred. The same festering hatred of other groups, religous, ethnic, nationalist, et al, that never totally disappear and just need the right spark to ignite. Most didn't act at all allowing others to do evil things.
> 
> I don't know who or if the the Ann franks and Oskar Schindlers might be in this conflict. We didn't find out about them until after the fact either.


So again, the point would be not about spreading the blame but how to keep it from happening again this time with Islam in the US.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

where I want to said:


> So again, the point would be not about spreading the blame but how to keep it from happening again this time with Islam in the US.


I suppose in that case their argument would switch to fear mongering.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2015.htm
I'm not dumb enough to think every Muslim in the USA is a terrorist at this time but with more and more immigration of Muslims, they will not be such a small minority. Muslims are the ones who are guilty of enforcing their law against non-Muslims in counties all over the world. 
It is no wonder that Americans do not want our country to become a Muslim country.



*List of Islamic Terror Attacks
from the first part of 2015*​ This is part of the list of Islamic attacks that have taken place since September 11th. The entries on this list are from the first part of 2015 only.​ You may need to *scroll down* to view the attacks for this period.​ To view religiously-motivated Islamic terrorist attacks for other years, go to the main page and follow the links.


(http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/) 

CNN- *Islam* is *Fastest* *Growing* *Religion in the...*



*www.cnn.com/2015/04/02/living/pew-study-religion *

*Apr 02, 2015 Â· Looking even farther into the future, Islam's population could surpass Christianity by 2100, Pew says, despite Christians' six-century head start. *










​


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

where I want to said:


> So again, the point would be not about spreading the blame but how to keep it from happening again this time with Islam in the US.


Since Muslims comprise a very small percentage of the population here and demographic trends don't predict any great change in that dynamic they likely have more to fear from a right wing, religous nationalistic movement taking control and suppressing them and their rights than do Christians of a Muslim caliphate taking hold here. Your concern for Muslims is duly noted and appreciated.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

poppy said:


> It isn't atheists we dislike. It's their habit of ridiculing Christians by snide remarks such as "people who believe in fairy tales". We also do not dislike Muslims. It's their constant rants about Christians and others being infidels and watching them kill innocent people who disagree with them that we find problems with. If our reasons for disliking them were due to them having different beliefs than us, we would also dislike Hindus and many other religions.


Ding ding ding...we have a winner.

Sorta like I can deal with some one having a few drinks ....but drunk drivers well that is the problem.

If one can practice their faith with out threats to kill...let alone locking people in cages and roasting the live....filming the event 

I would not have a problem.

I am far from being a homosexuals promoter but come on tossing them off building and filming it should be a clue....there's problems.

Yet, my view is dream would be for personal privacy when sex is not a business activity for profit. My views are hateful. ....but Muslim views need understanding and the freedom to practice their faith..

Too, many find logic in that.... it's a scary time.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> Since Muslims comprise a very small percentage of the population here and demographic trends don't predict any great change in that dynamic they likely have more to fear from a right wing, religous nationalistic movement taking control and suppressing them and their rights than do Christians of a Muslim caliphate taking hold here. Your concern for Muslims is duly noted and appreciated.


So mutual activism might actually help the Muslims too? Then what is the objection to that being discussed?

BTW I'm sure that Nazis were always a sizable minority. And it is not a caliphate that makes me afraid but capability of the violent minority to abridge all rights by their violence.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Just some information to consider:

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-a...ks-extreme-christians-and-far-right-white-men

http://www.commdiginews.com/world-n...an-terror-groups-attack-african-muslims-9691/

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/12/04/3599271/austin-shooter-christian-extremism/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s-not-even-close.html

Before someone accuses me of being a muslim sympathizer, or whatever, I'm just pointing out that not all terrorists are muslim. However, most terrorists are either christian or muslim.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Christianity is being attacked in the USA but never has the USA been attacked by Christianity.




*1. Acts of hostility toward people of Biblical faith:
http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=106938
*
*2. Acts of hostility from the Obama-led military toward people of Biblical faith:*


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> Christianity is being attacked in the USA but never has the USA been attacked by Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nothing to see here, just the routine Obama bashing.

FYI, the first link in my prior post is about christian terrorists in the US.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Riverdale said:


> So ISIS are Nazis? The Iraqis of Mosul are Poles of WWII?
> According to my research, the people of Poland did not greet the Nazis as heros/liberators.
> 
> You are comparing apples to goat turds.


They may not have been fans of the Nazi invasion but they got really busy taking out their Jewish population. The Nazis were actually awed by how enthusiastic the Poles were. I guess it's because they were all Catholic. 

And no I do not believe that. Anymore than I believe most of these Muslims are doing what they are doing because of their religion. Again I would refer you to HONY to see the real stories of what is happening there. It's easy to say I would never turn in my neighbors even if they threatened me and my family with death but we know from history and genocide after genocide that that is exactly what the vast majority of people do. They roll over to say their own lives and their children's lives. 

These people who are doing these things are like people of every religion and race throughout human history: survival is deeply encoded in our genes and survive at any cost is what the majority of us will do.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> Catholics have no control over what the heads of the Catholic Church apologize for. Catholics are some of the most sincere Christians that I know and they never try to convert anyone. The examples of the way they live their lives and the good that they do for other people less fortunate says it all.


Cause you know that whole Crusade thing never happened. Or the Inquisitions. Or the Jews rounded up and forced to convert or die. Or the witches and pagans burnt at the stake. Yup the Catholic Church definitely does not have a 2,000 year history of converting at sword point. 

Maybe what happened is after all that death and destruction they finally grew up and decided to let people make their own choices.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Nothing to see here, just the routine Obama bashing.
> 
> FYI, the first link in my prior post is about christian terrorists in the US.


By the hateful leftist Johnathan Alter. Who is shocked from a biased Tea Party hater.

He has been spouting off like that going back to defending Bill Clinton.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Nothing to see here, just the routine Obama bashing.


And it is all true.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

where I want to said:


> So again, the point would be not about spreading the blame but how to keep it from happening again this time with Islam in the US.


The point should be about how do we prevent any genocide period. How do we keep leaders from arising who agitate their people into killing their neighbors as scapegoats. How do we change that deep inherent human nature to survive at all costs?


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> Christianity is being attacked in the USA but never has the USA been attacked by Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That list was so awesome I had to share!



> *1. Acts of hostility toward people of Biblical faith:*
> 
> December 2009-Present - The annual White House Christmas cards, rather than focusing on Christmas or faith, instead highlight things such as the family dogs. And the White House Christmas tree ornaments include figures such as Mao Tse-Tung and a drag queen. [1]


Oh the humanity! ound:


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

We found out that Christmas 2009 that everything this Obama Whitehouse does is political. 
A tyrannical communist leader's visage on the American president's Christmas tree? On the other hand, an ornament that shellacks Obama's face onto Mount Rushmore along with Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson and Roosevelt's faces?

Drag Queen Hedda Lettuce chimed in that she is proud to have her portrait hanging in the White House, even if it's just temporary

Very bizarre then. Now we wish these things were his most outlandish.


----------



## trulytricia (Oct 11, 2002)

poppy said:


> It only took 5 posts to change the topic to how bad the Bible is. .




http://www.infowars.com/yes-there-a...ls-on-social-media-blogs-forums-and-websites/


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> We found out that Christmas 2009 that everything this Obama Whitehouse does is political.
> A tyrannical communist leader's visage on the American president's Christmas tree? On the other hand, an ornament that shellacks Obama's face onto Mount Rushmore along with Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson and Roosevelt's faces?
> 
> Drag Queen Hedda Lettuce chimed in that she is proud to have her portrait hanging in the White House, even if it's just temporary
> ...


What does christmas tree decorations have to do with presidential duties? I'm flummoxed on the correlation.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

trulytricia said:


> http://www.infowars.com/yes-there-a...ls-on-social-media-blogs-forums-and-websites/


Are you implying I'm a paid government troll? Seriously? :hysterical:


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> What does christmas tree decorations have to do with presidential duties? I'm flummoxed on the correlation.


I'm sure you are.....:bowtie:


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> I'm sure you are.....:bowtie:


Seriously. How do christmas ornaments have anything to do with presidential duties? I think your hatred of the man has sent you over the edge on this one...


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)




----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

trulytricia said:


> http://www.infowars.com/yes-there-a...ls-on-social-media-blogs-forums-and-websites/


LOL
Alex Jones?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> View attachment 50570


I see you are as flummoxed to explain the correlation as I am.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> LOL
> Alex Jones?


I know! Which website is more credible, Alex Jones or weaselzippers?


----------



## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

gapeach said:


> Christianity is being attacked in the USA but never has the USA been attacked by Christianity


Tell that to a few dozen people in Salem in 1692, or black people in the South up until the 80s. I'm pretty sure that a lot of those people would argue that they have been attacked by those professing to be acting on behalf of christianity. It started when they set foot on this land, and right up until the present day do people in the US get attacked by christians.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I can't remember if the decorations on the tree were before or after him getting the Nobel Peace Prize and too lazy to look it up but we all saw what narcissistic behavior was when we heard about an ornament that shellacks Obama's face onto Mount Rushmore along with Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson and Roosevelt's faces put on his tree right in the main living room.

Somehow I don't think he has a chance at Mt Rushmore. He's just :whistlin: Dixie. :teehee:


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Agriculture said:


> Tell that to a few dozen people in Salem in 1692, or black people in the South up until the 80s. I'm pretty sure that a lot of those people would argue that they have been attacked by those professing to be acting on behalf of christianity. It started when they set foot on this land, and right up until the present day do people in the US get attacked by christians.


Hmmmmmmmmmmm. sorry. not going to bite on that. You are wrong though.


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

1692...under the rule of the crown.. the United States of America was not founded as such... complain to the crown


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> The bible can be cherry picked by christians to say pretty much the same thing. Muslims bad, christians good. Blah blah blah
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Tabitha said:


> Irish Pixie said:
> 
> 
> > The bible can be cherry picked by christians to say pretty much the same thing. Muslims bad, christians good. Blah blah blah
> ...


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

You (collective christians and muslims) say that you're nothing alike, that the other religion is evil, but change some wording and the basic premise is the same.

No, it is not and never the twain shall meet! I like to see someone like Tabitha discuss because she knows what she is talking about. She has lived it.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> You (collective christians and muslims) say that you're nothing alike, that the other religion is evil, but change some wording and the basic premise is the same.
> 
> No, it is not and never the twain shall meet! I like to see someone like Tabitha discuss because she knows what she is talking about. She has lived it.


Lived with the hypocrisy of religion? All of us have. 

Muslims and christians are basically the same. You might not like the comparison but that doesn't make it wrong.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Lived with the hypocrisy of religion? All of us have.
> 
> Muslims and christians are basically the same. You might not like the comparison but that doesn't make it wrong.


Somehow my quote got messed up. That is not what I was saying at all.



No, it is not and never the twain shall meet! I like to see someone like Tabitha discuss because she knows what she is talking about. She has lived it. This is what I was saying.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> Somehow my quote got messed up. That is not what I was saying at all.


Bottom line, isn't the basis of both religions one god and a book? Everything else is just details.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

No, it isn't. Nothing compares with Sharia Law.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> The point should be about how do we prevent any genocide period. How do we keep leaders from arising who agitate their people into killing their neighbors as scapegoats. How do we change that deep inherent human nature to survive at all costs?


By starting now, even in elementary school, with the idea that protecting the rights of all, especially the ones you don't particularly like, ensures that your rights are also protected. If the point government is seen to make is not that select people are to be protected but that all, including the select, are equally to be protected, the everyone has a stake in seeing that system continues. 
If, on the other hand, it is seen that only certain people are the beneficiaries of government protection or injustice, then only those certain people are invested in continuing that system.
If this is so ingrained in the public's mind that their own rights are attached directly to everyone else's that the words "that's not fair" immediately arise on hearing some demagogue, they will stop think that they can not afford to lose protections of their rights to remove the protections of those they don't like.
Of course it is not a simple thing to live a principle . You might actually find yourself defending those who you don't like, even find distasteful. However, that is a course of action that will work.


----------



## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

gapeach said:


> No, it isn't. Nothing compares with Sharia Law.


Yes it is. The only difference is in the details of how they put their by-laws into action. The muslims practice the parts about being evil to those who don't subscribe to the magazine. The christians insist that the book is irrefutable, um except the parts that they don't like. Those they just ignore and wish they weren't there. Oh, but the REST of it is what god wants. Yeah, sure it is.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> No, it isn't. Nothing compares with Sharia Law.



Sure it does. All christian churches have canon law. The stricter christian sects have rules as rigid as sharia law.

Mainstream christians are continuously trying to bring religion into our government. This is an opinion piece but it lays out how christians have already brought religion into government law with recently enacted legislature. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...rvative-crusade-for-christian-sharia-law.html

If you (collective extreme christians) had your way we'd have religious govenment law in the US that would at least rival muslim sharia law, if not surpass it.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Sure it does. All christian churches have canon law. The stricter christian sects have rules as rigid as sharia law.
> 
> Mainstream christians are continuously trying to bring religion into our government. This is an opinion piece but it lays out how christians have already brought religion into government law with recently enacted legislature. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...rvative-crusade-for-christian-sharia-law.html
> 
> If you (collective extreme christians) had your way we'd have religious govenment law in the US that would at least rival muslim sharia law, if not surpass it.


I have been a Christian all of my life, I was baptized when I was young and was confirmed as a Christian at age 12. You are talking about Catholics, not regular Christians. I am a Lutheran, We are not under canon law and in fact, the church has got a little too liberal for me but I do believe in everything that the Lutheran Church that I attend believes no I will never leave it as long as I live but you are confused about all Christians and canon law.

I know many fundamentalist Christians, along with Southern Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and many more Christian denominations and none of them are under canon law.

All of them have become more liberal in recent years than we have ever known them to be. They have changed somewhat with the times. When I was a young girl, we had to cover our heads in church. Now we don't and the dress is much more informal now than it used to be.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> I have been a Christian all of my life, I was baptized when I was young and was confirmed as a Christian at age 12. You are talking about Catholics, not regular Christians. I am a Lutheran, We are not under canon law and in fact, the church has got a little too liberal for me but I do believe in everything that the Lutheran Church that I attend believes no I will never leave it as long as I live but you are confused about all Christians and canon law.
> 
> I know many fundamentalist Christians, along with Southern Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and many more Christian denominations and none of them are under canon law.
> 
> All of them have become more liberal in recent years than we have ever known them to be. They have changed somewhat with the times. When I was a young girl, we had to cover our heads in church. Now we don't and the dress is much more informal now than it used to be.


Read the link. Most christian religions have a form of canon law. Canon law is just rules for that religion. 

"Lutheranism
The Book of Concord is the historic doctrinal statement of the Lutheran Church, consisting of ten credal documents recognized as authoritative in Lutheranism since the 16th century. However, the Book of Concord is a confessional document (stating orthodox belief) rather than a book of ecclesiastical rules or discipline, like canon law. Each Lutheran national church establishes its own system of church order and discipline, though these are referred to as "canons."

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_law#Lutheranism


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Read the link. Most christian religions have a form of canon law. Canon law is just rules for that religion.
> 
> "Lutheranism
> The Book of Concord is the historic doctrinal statement of the Lutheran Church, consisting of ten credal documents recognized as authoritative in Lutheranism since the 16th century. However, the Book of Concord is a confessional document (stating orthodox belief) rather than a book of ecclesiastical rules or discipline, like canon law. Each Lutheran national church establishes its own system of church order and discipline, though these are referred to as "canons."
> ...


One reason I have always liked being a Lutheran is that each church has its own by laws and if we do not as a congregation want to go along with the rest of the church, we don't have to.

If people choose to go to stricter Demoninational churches that is up to them.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> One reason I have always liked being a Lutheran is that each church has its own by laws and if we do not as a congregation want to go along with the rest of the church, we don't have to.
> 
> If people choose to go to stricter Demoninational churches that is up to them.


So most christian religions do have canon law (rules) right? To continue where we left off, where you said that only the catholic church had canon law, you never commented on my link. Did you read it? http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...haria-law.html


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

It says page has no link and does not exist. I really don't believe liberal rags anyway.

I'm just telling you that I have gone to church all of my life and have heard of canon law but never have discussed it church or even thought about it except for Catholic churches. Lutherans are different. We have different synods and those synods are entirely different from one another. All Lutheran churches do belong to a synod but each church stands alone as far as what we vote to do.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> It says page has no link and does not exist. I really don't believe liberal rags anyway.
> 
> I'm just telling you that I have gone to church all of my life and have heard of canon law but never have discussed it church or even thought about it except for Catholic churches. Lutherans are different. We have different synods and those synods are entirely different from one another. All Lutheran churches do belong to a synod but each church stands alone as far as what we vote to do.


Here's the correct link (it was correct in the first post) http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...rvative-crusade-for-christian-sharia-law.html

All religions have rules, correct? They are referred to as canon law. It doesn't matter if you've never heard of it. Just like muslims have sharia law. The difference is that in the US won't base it's governmental law on religion. My link indicates all the ways christians try to get their religion into governmental law. 

That's the difference between you and I. I actually read the conservative crap that is posted. You know, open mind and all that?


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

_That's the difference between you and I. I actually read the conservative crap that is posted. You know, open mind and all that?
_
You may read it but I don't believe for one minute that you have an open mind and all that.


This article is so biased it is actually funny. Maybe it is supposed to be satire.
Dean Obeidallah author
Obeidallah is part of a small but growing number of Arab-American comedians who have increasingly received media attention in the past few years, as they use comedy to both entertain and dispel negative stereotypes of Arab-Americans and Muslims.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> _That's the difference between you and I. I actually read the conservative crap that is posted. You know, open mind and all that?
> _
> You may read it but I don't believe for one minute that you have an open mind and all that.
> 
> ...


Sigh. I said up front it was an opinion piece, remember? I didn't try to pass it off as fact like some do. 

Thanks for reading it, even if you didn't recognize the relevance.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> _That's the difference between you and I. I actually read the conservative crap that is posted. You know, open mind and all that?
> _
> *You may read it but I don't believe for one minute that you have an open mind and all that.*
> 
> ...


It simply amazes me that people can tell via computer what another person thinks... I do have an open mind. I read everything with an open mind too. You really should try it sometime. Just sayin'.


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> It simply amazes me that people can tell via computer what another person thinks... I do have an open mind. I read everything with an open mind too. You really should try it sometime. Just sayin'.


Then be amazed.

I think one can tell on the internet if somebody has an open mind, or not. People with an open mind tend to ask questions. When receiving answers, you see people with an open mind, sometimes change their initial position.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

poppy said:


> It isn't atheists we dislike. It's their habit of ridiculing Christians by snide remarks such as "people who believe in fairy tales". We also do not dislike Muslims. It's their constant rants about Christians and others being infidels and watching them kill innocent people who disagree with them that we find problems with. If our reasons for disliking them were due to them having different beliefs than us, we would also dislike Hindus and many other religions.


It isn't christians we dislike either. It's their habit of proselytizing to non believers about their religion when they know it's neither wanted nor appreciated. 

I'm also calling BS on the "do not dislike muslims" statement. There are members here there are at least honest in their dislike (intense dislike or hate would be better wording) of all muslims.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jolly said:


> Then be amazed.
> 
> I think one can tell on the internet if somebody has an open mind, or not. People with an open mind tend to ask questions. When receiving answers, you see people with an open mind, sometimes change their initial position.


I never knew that your amazing gifts included mind reading. Truly, is there nothing you can't do?  

Don't tell me what I think. In my opinion, it's rude, and rather boorish.


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> I never knew that your amazing gifts included mind reading. Truly, is there nothing you can't do?
> 
> Don't tell me what I think. In my opinion, it's rude, and rather boorish.


Yes, that opinion and $1 will buy you a cup of coffee at McDonald's. I've had better, but it's not bad.


----------



## trulytricia (Oct 11, 2002)

*Tabitha said*


http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...raffic.outbrain&utm_campaign=traffic.outbrain


Talk is cheap. 
There are horrendous stories of Christian and Yazidies experiences. 
You have a right to dislike or hate Christians all you want. 
It's a bit obvious. 
Christians have been harassed and raped even in Asylum camps in Germany.
The police have come out to say they need to be separately housed. 

I would like to see some of the cherry picked, vague verses that say the same thing.. Show me one single verse from the New Testament. 
You won't even try because you know you can't. 

Jihad vs. Crusades in response to Patchouli

.[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK7MYvliSnk[/ame]

the whole history in a nutshell. the lecture starts at 3.00. 
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y[/ame]

I doubt you will look at it, but everybody ought to watch this video.[/QUOTE]


interesting


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

gapeach said:


> Somehow my quote got messed up. That is not what I was saying at all.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it is not and never the twain shall meet! I like to see someone like Tabitha discuss because she knows what she is talking about. She has lived it. This is what I was saying.


Never the twain shall meet? They both share Abraham as a patriarch.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

trulytricia said:


> *Tabitha said*
> 
> 
> http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...raffic.outbrain&utm_campaign=traffic.outbrain
> ...



interesting[/QUOTE]

The truth is easily available and history does not change. Islam has been brutal and murderous since its inception and has not mellowed a bit over the years. It is nothing more than the latest incarnation of the brutal empires that ruled the region for thousands of years and still even uses the same symbols of the crescent and star used in all the other empires in their worship of their false gods.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

basketti said:


> Never the twain shall meet? They both share Abraham as a patriarch.


Abraham was indeed the beginning of Arabs but Islam is based on nothing more than a perversion of much earlier Hebrew Scriptures. They simply replaced Isaac with Ishmael as the chosen seed line to try to give themselves some legitimacy. The Hebrew Scriptures are clear and undeniable. God had nothing against Ishmael and even promised him he would become the father of many nations. That has happened but Islam has turned those nations into a permanent disaster and threat to the world.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

basketti said:


> Never the twain shall meet? They both share Abraham as a patriarch.


None so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see. Matthew Henry


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> None so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see. Matthew Henry


I really don't know what your role is here. You say that you are not religious at all but do you take sides?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

poppy said:


> interesting


The truth is easily available and history does not change. Islam has been brutal and murderous since its inception and has not mellowed a bit over the years. It is nothing more than the latest incarnation of the brutal empires that ruled the region for thousands of years and still even uses the same symbols of the crescent and star used in all the other empires in their worship of their false gods.[/QUOTE]

The same can be said of christianity. You can't say one is "brutal and murderous" when both have done the same thing.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

gapeach said:


> I really don't know what your role is here. You say that you are not religious at all but do you take sides?


Are you supposed to have a role here? Do we have to take sides?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> I really don't know what your role is here. You say that you are not religious at all but do you take sides?


I'm not taking sides. I don't like any religion. I'm simply pointing out the bias.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

poppy said:


> Abraham was indeed the beginning of Arabs but Islam is based on nothing more than a perversion of much earlier Hebrew Scriptures. They simply replaced Isaac with Ishmael as the chosen seed line to try to give themselves some legitimacy. The Hebrew Scriptures are clear and undeniable. God had nothing against Ishmael and even promised him he would become the father of many nations. That has happened but Islam has turned those nations into a permanent disaster and threat to the world.


So they met, no? 

I think the rest of your statement is biased according to your religion.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

> poppy said:
> 
> 
> > interesting
> ...


Brutality was a common denominator of both the Roman Empires and Byzantine Empire, as well as the many Islamic states. There were moments of compassionate and generousity on both the Christian and Islamic sides, Saladine of Kurdish origins being a famous one. There were lots of Christian mercenaries working for Islamic rulers and Islamic mercinaries working for Christians. Slaughters of opposing religious populations were common. Slaughters of opposing populations of similar religions were common.

The Crusades were push back against Islamic conquest, both religious and politically motivated, and although you will hear about the slaughtering of civilians by Crusaders constantly from Islam apologists, you will rarely hear of the earlier and later mass slaughters by Islamic forces, every bit as bad as those done by Christians only more frequent due to proximity.

One of the differences as far as I can tell though, it that Christians have always had an element favoring guilt so the bad done by Christians always manages to get some press in the Christian world while that never seems to be an issue for Islam. In fact, suppressing negatives done in the name of Islam by force seems to be required.

This is not a new battle but one that has been going on without real pause for the more than 1500 years. Why people seem to feel that it should be different now is puzzling. Only the mobility of the conflict has changed. And the fact that the West has stopped thinking of itself as needing to defend itself in the last 50 years. Which is what happens when people are safe more than one generation. And why 'evolved' states always fall to the less evolved.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

where I want to said:


> Brutality was a common denominator of both the Roman Empires and Byzantine Empire, as well as the many Islamic states. There were moments of compassionate and generousity on both the Christian and Islamic sides, Saladine of Kurdish origins being a famous one. There were lots of Christian mercenaries working for Islamic rulers and Islamic mercinaries working for Christians. Slaughters of opposing religious populations were common. Slaughters of opposing populations of similar religions were common.
> 
> The Crusades were push back against Islamic conquest, both religious and politically motivated, and although you will hear about the slaughtering of civilians by Crusaders constantly from Islam apologists, you will rarely hear of the earlier and later mass slaughters by Islamic forces, every bit as bad as those done by Christians only more frequent due to proximity.
> 
> ...


So killing and destruction was done in the name of god in both religions?


----------



## trulytricia (Oct 11, 2002)

Anyone can name God in what they are doing. It doesn't mean He is there.


Muslims and Atheist are basically the same.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

trulytricia said:


> Anyone can name God in what they are doing. It doesn't mean He is there.
> 
> 
> Muslims and Atheist are basically the same.


How so? Muslims believe in god, don't they? Atheists don't. 

Please don't dump rubbish and run away.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

trulytricia said:


> Anyone can name God in what they are doing. It doesn't mean He is there.
> 
> 
> Muslims and Atheist are basically the same.


Saying you are Christian automatically means God is there? You have no proof of that or your statement. You get to believe what you want and I get to believe what I want.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> How so? Muslims believe in god, don't they? Atheists don't.
> 
> Please don't dump rubbish and run away.


She has to run away. She has no cogent argument to back up that bit of garbage. No one could.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Thy shall not have any other Gods before me.Exodus 20:3



Allah is not the Heavenly Father.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

A vital difference between the Islamic and Christian views of God is the biblical concept of the Trinity. In the Bible, God has revealed Himself as one God in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. While each Person of the Trinity is fully God, God is not three gods but three in one.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> Thy shall not have any other Gods before me.
> 
> Allah is not the Heavenly Father.


Muslims think the same thing... One god, one book.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Christianity came before Islam.

*:Historical Answer*
If we look at it historically, *Judaism* would be the earliest, considering Moses and his revelation occurred long before Jesus Christ (approximately 1200 years). Christianity would follow suit, during the advent of Jesus Christ. Islam is last, since prophet Muhammad appeared later after the Crucifixion (approximately 600 years). Furthermore, the other religions can be tracked back to Judaism through Abraham. 

Judaism is the oldest, at about three thousand years old. Christianity, at about two thousand years old and Islam, at about one thousand four hundred years old. 

It is worth noting that archaeologists typically see Judaism as a younger religion than the date given by the Moses revelation. Some date it to around 800 B.C.E. when Josiah proclaimed Jewish Monotheism and other date it to Priestly Biblical source in 550 B.C.E. Regardless, Judaism would still be over 500 years older than Christianity and 1100 years older than Islam. 

*http://www.answers.com/Q/Which_of_t...s_is_the_oldest_Judaism_Christianity_or_Islam*


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> Christianity came before Islam.
> 
> *:Historical Answer*
> If we look at it historically, *Judaism* would be the earliest, considering Moses and his revelation occurred long before Jesus Christ (approximately 1200 years). Christianity would follow suit, during the advent of Jesus Christ. Islam is last, since prophet Muhammad appeared later after the Crucifixion (approximately 600 years). Furthermore, the other religions can be tracked back to Judaism through Abraham.
> ...


How does that make them fundamentally different?


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

It means to me that Christianity is the way, the light, and the truth.
It means to me that Christianity is the way to Heaven even though I think that Jews will be there too.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

trulytricia said:


> http://www.infowars.com/yes-there-a...ls-on-social-media-blogs-forums-and-websites/



:smackound::yawn:

This is always my favorite accusation. Honey I wish I was getting paid to post on the internet. I need to figure out how to sign up for that program.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> I know! Which website is more credible, Alex Jones or weaselzippers?


Alex Jones is definitely more entertaining.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

where I want to said:


> By starting now, even in elementary school, with the idea that protecting the rights of all, especially the ones you don't particularly like, ensures that your rights are also protected. If the point government is seen to make is not that select people are to be protected but that all, including the select, are equally to be protected, the everyone has a stake in seeing that system continues.
> If, on the other hand, it is seen that only certain people are the beneficiaries of government protection or injustice, then only those certain people are invested in continuing that system.
> If this is so ingrained in the public's mind that their own rights are attached directly to everyone else's that the words "that's not fair" immediately arise on hearing some demagogue, they will stop think that they can not afford to lose protections of their rights to remove the protections of those they don't like.
> Of course it is not a simple thing to live a principle . *You might actually find yourself defending those who you don't like, even find distasteful. However, that is a course of action that will work*.


This may be the most ironic post you have ever made. I spend my time here almost every day defending a minority religious group that I do not agree with and a lot of their beliefs I do find distasteful. And yet you routinely bash me for it. :nono:


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> It means to me that Christianity is the way, the light, and the truth.
> It means to me that Christianity is the way to Heaven even though I think that Jews will be there too.


Where will *all* the muslims go? What makes them less worthy? Their way means the truth to them as well. 

You will never admit it but christianity and islam are fundamentally the same. Their members have killed, raped, and destroyed in the name of their god. One is no better than the other. 

I'm glad that I don't believe in either one.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

gapeach said:


> Christianity came before Islam.
> 
> *:Historical Answer*
> If we look at it historically, *Judaism* would be the earliest, considering Moses and his revelation occurred long before Jesus Christ (approximately 1200 years). Christianity would follow suit, during the advent of Jesus Christ. Islam is last, since prophet Muhammad appeared later after the Crucifixion (approximately 600 years). Furthermore, the other religions can be tracked back to Judaism through Abraham.
> ...


Hinduism is far older than Judaism or Christianity. Since that appears to be your benchmark of authenticity, I suggest you convert immediately.


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

> You will never admit it but christianity and islam are fundamentally the same. Their members have killed, raped, and destroyed in the name of their god. One is no better than the other.


If you mean on an epic level comparable to what Muslims are doing in many parts of the world *TODAY*, right *NOW*...no, Christians are not doing that. 

I'm always bemused at how the left mixes events today, recent history, history and ancient history all together as convenient for them and their agenda. Leftists love to use history as buffet, picking out certain little morsels and disregarding that which isn't quite as palatable. 

Sort of like when the left gushes _"The Great Ancient Greek Civilization in all of its magnificence accepted if not outright embraced homosexuality!"_

Yeah well, "The Great Ancient Greek Civilization" also embraced warfare, conquest by arms, slavery and generally did not allow women suffrage...but the left conveniently forget to mention those facts when they're gushing over how "Ancient Greeks embraced homosexuality!"


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Targe said:


> If you mean on an epic level comparable to what Muslims are doing in many parts of the world *TODAY*, right *NOW*...no, Christians are not doing that.
> 
> I'm always bemused at how the left mixes events today, recent history, history and ancient history all together as convenient for them and their agenda. Leftists love to use history as buffet, picking out certain little morsels and disregarding that which isn't quite as palatable.
> 
> ...


Nope, not what I said. Nice spin tho. 

I'm not "the left" if you're going to quote _me_ please don't lump me with a group.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

basketti said:


> Hinduism is far older than Judaism or Christianity. Since that appears to be your benchmark of authenticity, I suggest you convert immediately.



I thought the oldest were the aborigines in various tribes. They dated back to 40,000 yrs ago in Australia.


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

basketti said:


> Hinduism is far older than Judaism or Christianity. Since that appears to be your benchmark of authenticity, I suggest you convert immediately.


Depends on how it's interpreted. "Modern" Hinduism or the form(s) that began to appear after/during the so-called "Hindu Synthesis" did not gel until sometime in the 300's or so. It was/is basically an amalgamation of several Indian cultures and spiritual practices. 

For that matter, modern Hinduism is often distinguished by scholars as actually three or even more different religions. 

So...which "Hinduism" are you claiming is "far older than Judaism or Christianity"?


----------



## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

gapeach said:


> I thought the oldest were the aborigines in various tribes. They dated back to 40,000 yrs ago in Australia.


Good observation. Although, in the case of cultures that lack a written language, it can be hard to adjudicate the antiquity of religious or other cultural traditions, the A.A. very possibly have the longest, extant unbroken spiritual tradition.


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope, not what I said. Nice spin tho.


Yeah, I know: you made an ambiguous statement insofar as you didn't specific a timeline/time period to add context when you made your accusations and now you hide behind semantics. 

Figured as much.




Irish Pixie said:


> I'm not "the left" if you're going to quote _me_ please don't lump me with a group.


Well of course you are. You espouse a decidedly leftist world view on pretty much if not every issue I've seen you post about here. I'm to the right side of the issues; I don't deny that. 

I'm always bemused at how leftists rail at being identified as what they are: people on the left side of the issues.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Targe said:


> Yeah, I know: you made an ambiguous statement insofar as you didn't specific a timeline/time period to add context when you made your accusations and now you hide behind semantics.
> 
> Figured as much.
> 
> ...


If you can't stop spinning what I've said to suit your agenda and lumping me into a group based on your opinion alone, I will stop responding. Your choice.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Patchouli said:


> This may be the most ironic post you have ever made. I spend my time here almost every day defending a minority religious group that I do not agree with and a lot of their beliefs I do find distasteful. And yet you routinely bash me for it. :nono:


Which minority religious group would that be?
You do that by bashing one other religion?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

gapeach said:


> I thought the oldest were the aborigines in various tribes. They dated back to 40,000 yrs ago in Australia.


I didn't say Hindus were the oldest. But now that you've found what you think is the oldest, why not start practicing that religion? Since like I said, that appear to be your benchmark of authenticity.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

basketti said:


> I didn't say Hindus were the oldest. But now that you've found what you think is the oldest, why not start practicing that religion? Since like I said, that appear to be your benchmark of authenticity.


That is really a silly post.



You are the lovely lady who made the remark about old people.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> This may be the most ironic post you have ever made. I spend my time here almost every day defending a minority religious group that I do not agree with and a lot of their beliefs I do find distasteful. And yet you routinely bash me for it. :nono:


The point is to defend the principle, then there is no need to pick and chose who gets defended. If there is chosing who gets defended based on "minority" status, the principle itself is diminished and the whole idea becomes a battle over who only. 
The whole idea of picking and chosing who gets the benefit of attention only creates ever more classes of people to be divided by basically miniscule differences. For ever noisy, pushy minority clamoring for attention, a hundred thousand quieter go unnoticed. 
So when you can actually defend the majority as well as a minority based on applying the same principles, then need to sort, classify and divide disappears. It is only the principle that matters. Applied universally.

And I don't bash you at all. I actually have been pretty careful of the nature of what I say. Disagreement is not bashing. And should not be as easily confused on this forum as it is. Sometimes it's hard not getting drag down into it.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

gapeach said:


> That is really a silly post.
> 
> 
> 
> You are the lovely lady who made the remark about old people.


I have no idea what you are talking about. You were the one who said that Christianity was older than Islam, thus conferring some kind of superiority to it because of age.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

gapeach said:


> Christianity came before Islam.




Rmember this?


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

If it was Patchouli who make the remark (not today) I apologize to you for getting you two mixed up.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

trulytricia said:


> Anyone can name God in what they are doing. It doesn't mean He is there.
> 
> 
> Muslims and Atheist are basically the same.


What? How can a religious group that believes very strongly in the Judeo Christian God be the same as a group that doesn't believe in any god at all?


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> If it was Patchouli who make the remark (not today) I apologize to you for getting you two mixed up.



I don't think it was me.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> I don't think it was me.


I went back and looked at your posts but I think it was in Sept and I didn't go that far. Cornhusker may remember since it was referenced.


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

One poster wrote:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by gapeach View Post
> Christianity came before Islam.


And another pointed back to it:



> Rmember this?


Actually, it did. God is alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. Christians believe in a Trinity - God the Son, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Since God is always, and Christ is part of the trinity, then Christ has been with us since before time began.

Don't think you can find that in Islam.

Also, AFAIK, Christianity is the only religion that embraces a belief in a resurrected Savior. Christ was dead for three days before he arose. He then walked among the people, where many recognized him, even to the point of showing His Disciple Thomas the nail prints in his hands.

Don't think you can find that in Islam.

Lastly, a line denied by Ashcroft, but it's good enough I'll stand behind it...One of the fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity?

_*Islam is a religion in which God requires you to send your son to die for Him. Christianity is a faith in which God sends his son to die for you.*_


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Jolly said:


> One poster wrote:
> And another pointed back to it:
> Actually, it did. God is alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. Christians believe in a Trinity - God the Son, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Since God is always, and Christ is part of the trinity, then Christ has been with us since before time began.
> Don't think you can find that in Islam.
> ...


That is so true, Jolly. Thank you for posting this. Sometimes we need to just stop and think a bit, on what we really have as Christians.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jolly said:


> One poster wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Both religions aren't based on the tenet of one god, one book? Huh. God/bible, allah/quran. 

The details are that both religions have killed, raped, and destroyed in their gods name. One is no better than the other. Islam is no better than christianity. 

Can you say with all honesty that no christian has ever sent his or her son to die because their religion? If you're honest you can't because it's happened for centuries.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> I went back and looked at your posts but I think it was in Sept and I didn't go that far. Cornhusker may remember since it was referenced.


I am lost.  What specifically are you looking for that I said?


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> I am lost.  What specifically are you looking for that I said?


I cannot recall the exact words but it was referencing old people in a detrimental way.


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> Both religions aren't based on the tenet of one god, one book? Huh. God/bible, allah/quran.
> 
> The details are that both religions have killed, raped, and destroyed in their gods name. One is no better than the other. Islam is no better than christianity.
> 
> Can you say with all honesty that no christian has ever sent his or her son to die because their religion? If you're honest you can't because it's happened for centuries.


Do religions kill people? Do people following their religion kill people? Or do people twist their religion so that they may kill people?

Show me where in the New Testament Christ commands me to lie to people not of the Faith and then to convert them to the Faith by sword? And slaying those who will not convert?

Show me.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> I cannot recall the exact words but it was referencing old people in a detrimental way.


Ah I thought it was something about the age of Christianity. No wonder I was lost. I bet it was in the Black lives don't matter thread. I said something to the effect of I got frustrated with old white people getting wound up over stuff that isn't even true. It probably got deleted.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I think that might have been it. Talking about old people does not hurt my feelings a bit unless it is insinuative of something like being senile or something similar. I am a happy old person at almost 75. I have been happily married for 55 yrs, in good health, am able to take care of my husband who is disabled now, have 3 great kids, 4 super grandkids, live in a great place in this wonderful country. I don't like a lot of things about the direction of the country and next year I hope we all make our very best decisions about who we vote for. The important thing is to get out there and vote because if you don't, you should not complain. I also enjoy being a Christian because at my age, we have a lot to look forward to.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jolly said:


> Do religions kill people? Do people following their religion kill people? Or do people twist their religion so that they may kill people?
> 
> Show me where in the New Testament Christ commands me to lie to people not of the Faith and then to convert them to the Faith by sword? And slaying those who will not convert?
> 
> Show me.


I don't cherry pick the bible, that's a christian thang. You (collective christians) use leviticus to say god hates gays and the commandments are in the ot but I'm told I can only use the nt? That dog don't hunt. 

People use the _teachings_ of their religion to kill, rape, and destroy. All in the name of their god.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> I think that might have been it. Talking about old people does not hurt my feelings a bit unless it is insinuative of something like being senile or something similar. I am a happy old person at almost 75. I have been happily married for 55 yrs, in good health, am able to take care of my husband who is disabled now, have 3 great kids, 4 super grandkids, live in a great place in this wonderful country. I don't like a lot of things about the direction of the country and next year I hope we all make our very best decisions about who we vote for. The important thing is to get out there and vote because if you don't, you should not complain. I also enjoy being a Christian because at my age, we have a lot to look forward to.


I absolutely do not think you are senile and I sincerely apologise if I implied that. :bow:

What frustrates me is that I see too many older people in my life being suckered by the fear mongering shoveled out to them by the rightwing media. And you know I have said before and I will say again I don't like the outrage and fear mongering from leftwing sources either. 

I also have no problem with Christians either. I am glad you have a faith that makes you happy and gives you something to look forward to in the next life.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> I absolutely do not think you are senile and I sincerely apologise if I implied that. :bow:
> 
> What frustrates me is that I see too many older people in my life being suckered by the fear mongering shoveled out to them by the rightwing media. And you know I have said before and I will say again I don't like the outrage and fear mongering from leftwing sources either.
> 
> I also have no problem with Christians either. I am glad you have a faith that makes you happy and gives you something to look forward to in the next life.


You don't need to bow though.
I was always a rebel and was the first in my immediate family to vote Republican. My mother always swore that we named our first baby. Barry, after Barry Goldwater and almost disowned me. We really didn't. He was named after my DH best friend's first child.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Jolly said:


> Do religions kill people? Do people following their religion kill people? Or do people twist their religion so that they may kill people?
> 
> Show me where in the New Testament Christ commands me to lie to people not of the Faith and then to convert them to the Faith by sword? And slaying those who will not convert?
> 
> Show me.


I recall Christians killing each other in Northern Ireland and lots of erhnic cleansing in Serbia.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

In Northern Ireland that is Protestants against Catholics. Not Christian vs Catholic.

Really more like Presbyterians and Anglicans against Catholic.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

gapeach said:


> In Northern Ireland that is Protestants against Catholics. Not Christian vs Catholic.
> 
> Really more like Presbyterians and Anglicans against Catholic.


But also there has been at least one post here suggesting Catholics aren't Christians. I have a coworker who is a fundamentalist Christian who believes the Pope is the ruler of Catholics on earth and in hell as he is the anti Christ. 

But my main point is that some believe that Christians don't kill in the name of their religion and I was just pointing out they do occasionally.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Jolly said:


> One poster wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That was me and I never said Christianity didn't come before Islam.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

keenataz said:


> But also there has been at least one post here suggesting Catholics aren't Christians. I have a coworker who is a fundamentalist Christian who believes the Pope is the ruler of Catholics on earth and in hell as he is the anti Christ.
> 
> But my main point is that some believe that Christians don't kill in the name of their religion and I was just pointing out they do occasionally.[/QUOTE}
> *Not in 2015
> ...


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

poppy said:


> It isn't atheists we dislike. It's their habit of ridiculing Christians by snide remarks such as "people who believe in fairy tales". We also do not dislike Muslims. It's their constant rants about Christians and others being infidels and watching them kill innocent people who disagree with them that we find problems with. If our reasons for disliking them were due to them having different beliefs than us, we would also dislike Hindus and many other religions.


Post of the century award.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> Since Muslims comprise a very small percentage of the population here and demographic trends don't predict any great change in that dynamic they likely have more to fear from a right wing, religous nationalistic movement taking control and suppressing them and their rights than do Christians of a Muslim caliphate taking hold here. Your concern for Muslims is duly noted and appreciated.


Hmmm...since this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles looks like your wait will be a long one...however ask Dearborn & some other communities how they're faring...


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Agriculture said:


> Tell that to a few dozen people in Salem in 1692, or black people in the South up until the 80s. I'm pretty sure that a lot of those people would argue that they have been attacked by those professing to be acting on behalf of christianity. It started when they set foot on this land, and right up until the present day do people in the US get attacked by christians.


Ah,, yes. Compare a 'few dozen" which is prolly a streatch, to the shear numbers of those killed by Islam extremeists. 
Wow, Some have no sense of comparison. And the FACT that horrific acts against folks centuries ago by so-called Christians were STOPPED. See any mass witch burnings lately?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Tricky Grama said:


> Ah,, yes. Compare a 'few dozen" which is prolly a streatch, to the shear numbers of those killed by Islam extremeists.
> Wow, Some have no sense of comparison. And the FACT that horrific acts against folks centuries ago by so-called Christians were STOPPED. See any mass witch burnings lately?


Are you saying that christians have never killed, raped, or destroyed in the name of their god? All anyone has said on his thread is that both christians and muslims have done the same thing in the name of their religion.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Both religions aren't based on the tenet of one god, one book? Huh. God/bible, allah/quran.
> 
> The details are that both religions have killed, raped, and destroyed in their gods name. One is no better than the other. Islam is no better than christianity.
> 
> Can you say with all honesty that no christian has ever sent his or her son to die because their religion? If you're honest you can't because it's happened for centuries.




I can. 

Before you start trying to find examples remember just because someone is called a Christian does not make them one.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> I can.
> 
> Before you start trying to find examples remember just because someone is called a Christian does not make them one.


True, but _they_ consider themselves christian, and they do what they do in the name of their religion and their god. The same thing can be said of muslims, or any religion.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Are you saying that christians have never killed, raped, or destroyed in the name of their god? .



Yes that's what I'm saying.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Are you saying that christians have never killed, raped, or destroyed in the name of their god? All anyone has said on his thread is that both christians and muslims have done the same thing in the name of their religion.


No one said that. We've said "HUNDREDS" of times, that Islam has been far, FAR above & beyond the massive murderers than what Christians have done. The Crusades were started b/c Islam was murdering/pillaging/overtaking other's lands, pretty much all over. The was other wars were started.
And they continue in about the same numbers today.

So, post about an abortion clinic, a piece about the WBC & all will be met w/same arguments: nothing Christians have ever done or are doing now will come close to the murderous destruction of Islam, past or present.

Yes, not ALL muslims.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Are you saying that christians have never killed, raped, or destroyed in the name of their god? .



Yes that's what I'm saying.


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

> We also do not dislike Muslims. It's their constant rants about Christians and others being infidels and watching them kill innocent people who disagree with them that we find problems with.



Yes poppy, and who disagrees with you over those who kill innocent people?? Its when you try and lump ALL Muslims together, even the 1.5 BILLION folks who did NOT , and WILL NOT, kill anyone, with those radicals. That is where your argument goes off the rails, and that is where you go from being a concerned, situationally-aware citizen to being a prejudiced bigot. See the line??


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Tricky Grama said:


> Hmmm...since this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles looks like your wait will be a long one...however ask Dearborn & some other communities how they're faring...


 You keep saying that, but what 'Judeo-Christian principles' would that be? Specifically?? 

And by the way, 'GOD' is not a Christian. GOD has no religion, he is above all religions.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Of what possible purpose is it to insist that the have been people who killed in the name of Christianity? It certainly would not establish the virtue of doing so. 
There is only one purpose for this repeated diversion from Muslim violence by bringing up Christian violence. And that is to silence protests of people who believe violence is intrinsic to the practice of Islam by insisting that they are just as bad. 
Which, beside the ridiculous stretch to try to find Christians who can match the violence and aggressiveness al qaeda or ISIS at this moment in history, derails any conversation about how to stop such violence. 
Which is the apparent goal because the very people who spit acid at Christian have nothing. No ideas or even vague thoughts on how to do it. Nada. Just a vague Obamaesque belief that minorities (here in the US because looking farther afield destroys that delusion) are noble and must be allowed free rein because they are facing outsized opponents. They demand that everyone must believe for their easy beliefs to work. And to believe, a lot of inconvenient facts have to be ignored. Those that raise them have to be silenced lest those inconvenient facts cease being ignored. 
You can't pretend bombs, beheadings, radicalization, wholesale mass murder, terrorism, destroying archeological treasures, immigrant disaffection, assaults against other religions, etc out of existence. You can't bully everyone into pretending with you.
You can offer alternatives beside shut up. But you have to stop yelling at those disagreeable opponents long enough for thought to penetrate.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Tricky Grama said:


> No one said that. We've said "HUNDREDS" of times, that Islam has been far, FAR above & beyond the massive murderers than what Christians have done. The Crusades were started b/c Islam was murdering/pillaging/overtaking other's lands, pretty much all over. The was other wars were started.
> And they continue in about the same numbers today.
> 
> So, post about an abortion clinic, a piece about the WBC & all will be met w/same arguments: nothing Christians have ever done or are doing now will come close to the murderous destruction of Islam, past or present.
> ...


Not all christians are murdering, raping, destroyers... but there are/have been christians that do one or all three. You can try to justify that what christians have done isn't as bad, or they were misunderstood, or someone else started it, all you want but the bottom line is christians have done the exact same thing muslims have for centuries.


----------



## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> None so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see. Matthew Henry


some folks need to put that on their own needles and knit it.


----------



## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

The point is:

Islam conquers, pillages, etc., etc. 
It follows directions from their holy books. It is by the directives of their prophet. 

Christians do something like that, it is against the regulations of their founder.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Tabitha said:


> some folks need to put that on their own needles and knit it.


Why? Can you explain what I won't see or hear? Please?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Tabitha said:


> The point is:
> 
> Islam conquers, pillages, etc., etc.
> It follows directions from their holy books. It is by the directives of their prophet.
> ...


You do realize that christians used the same playbook during the multiple crusades and both inquisitions, right? 

A holy war is a holy war, it's still fought in god's name.


----------



## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

Another thing, people fight wars and the like for various reasons, geopolitical, economic, In the past about ascendency to the throne. etc. the fact they are part of a religion has nothing to do with it, as in the case of Ireland. 
the Irish have been fighting along time to free their Island from British rule. What does that have to do with religion. And the British did not conquer them for religious reasons either.


----------



## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

keenataz said:


> I recall Christians killing each other in Northern Ireland and lots of erhnic cleansing in Serbia.


before you mention Serbia, you really need to look into the history of SE Europe. This has it's roots way back when the Ottoman empire was attempting to overrun Europe. How did you think European countries like Albania and Kosova, Bosnia, became Muslim? BY the muslims sending nice missionaries who established schools, orphanages and hospitals? 
I told the story of all the young girls in a town committing suicide by jumping off a bridge when the muslims were taking over their town. They knew what for. That bridge was destroyed during the breakup of Yugoslavia btw. 
Mozart even wrote an opera about a sex slave being freed from a harem. A Christian order was established to collect money and buy Christian slaves from the muslims. The order exists to this day and is called the Redemptorists. 

The Serbs knew/know what they were up against. 

The difference between the children of Abraham Ishmael and Isaac. 
Ishmael was born because of the unbelief of Sarah. He was not the heir.

Islam did not start until the 7th century AD, not 3000 BC.. 

As for similarities. 
The OT deals with the Nation of Israel, which was to become a model Nation. (So the heathen will see...)
Israel was promised a certain land, they were told to go in and take over this land. Not the whole world like Islam. 
The people occupying that land were considered evil by God and God told Israel to commit genocide, in todays parlance. Leave nothing in that land, then settle it. They did this partially. They had lots of problems later on. 

This model was designed to prevent abject poverty and decadent riches. It was a materialistic agreement. Laws that deal with the here and now. 
It was slightly democratic, no real govt. 10 people elected a representative, and of those, ten again elected one. they had a kind of parlament and judges. 
They did not want that anymore, they wanted to be like the people around them and have a king. God told Samual that it was not against Samuel but against him. He told them they could go their own way and become a kingdom, but a king takes the best for himself, he will conscript your sons to fight his wars, a king wants to become great and mighty and conquer. 
the kingdom was not God's idea. 

Basically, the model Nation was a big flop. Evtl. God canceled the contract. Bluntly stated in the OT. 


The Israelites were not told to 'convert or die' the unbelievers in other lands or to take over their countries. To this day, the Jews are not a proselytizing religion.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> keenataz said:
> 
> 
> > But also there has been at least one post here suggesting Catholics aren't Christians. I have a coworker who is a fundamentalist Christian who believes the Pope is the ruler of Catholics on earth and in hell as he is the anti Christ.
> ...



That is some spectacular revisionist history right there. So every time the Catholic Church killed someone for not being a true believer it had nothing to do with their religion? Seriously? And I hate to say this but Hindus and Buddhists also kill people in holy wars and fights over religion.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Tricky Grama said:


> Ah,, yes. Compare a 'few dozen" which is prolly a streatch, to the shear numbers of those killed by Islam extremeists.
> Wow, Some have no sense of comparison. And the FACT that horrific acts against folks centuries ago by so-called Christians were STOPPED. See any mass witch burnings lately?


Yes actually. Witches get burned every day even today. Some of them sadly by Christians:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/18/african-children-denounce_n_324943.html



> EKET, Nigeria â The nine-year-old boy lay on a bloodstained hospital sheet crawling with ants, staring blindly at the wall.
> His family pastor had accused him of being a witch, and his father then tried to force acid down his throat as an exorcism. It spilled as he struggled, burning away his face and eyes. The emaciated boy barely had strength left to whisper the name of the church that had denounced him â Mount Zion Lighthouse.
> A month later, he died.
> 
> ...


What you guys can't seem to get is that any religion in the hands of the superstitious and ignorant can lead to violence. The bible is full of passages telling it's followers to kill people. Some people take them seriously and kill homosexuals or witches or those of other religions.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> I can.
> 
> Before you start trying to find examples remember just because someone is called a Christian does not make them one.


Oh please. God sent people to die in his name in the Bible. Read your own book. He sent them to kill men, women and children.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Tabitha said:


> The point is:
> 
> Islam conquers, pillages, etc., etc.
> It follows directions from their holy books. It is by the directives of their prophet.
> ...


Do you guys read your own holy book? Did you miss most of the Old Testament? The parts where God sent his people to annihilate every living thing in countries that didn't worship him? From humans including the babies dashed on rocks and the pregnant women gutted with swords right down to all of the freaking livestock. The only thing that got a pass was the trees!


----------



## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

Sometimes I think that the only ones who believe it are those who haven't read it. How can anyone swallow such nonsense, and then be able to say with a straight face that the parts which don't make sense are simply a story which we aren't capable of understanding. Oh, but the other parts are all true. Sure they are.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

where I want to said:


> Of what possible purpose is it to insist that the have been people who killed in the name of Christianity? It certainly would not establish the virtue of doing so.
> There is only one purpose for this repeated diversion from Muslim violence by bringing up Christian violence. And that is to silence protests of people who believe violence is intrinsic to the practice of Islam by insisting that they are just as bad.
> Which, beside the ridiculous stretch to try to find Christians who can match the violence and aggressiveness al qaeda or ISIS at this moment in history, derails any conversation about how to stop such violence.
> Which is the apparent goal because the very people who spit acid at Christian have nothing. No ideas or even vague thoughts on how to do it. Nada. Just a vague Obamaesque belief that minorities (here in the US because looking farther afield destroys that delusion) are noble and must be allowed free rein because they are facing outsized opponents. They demand that everyone must believe for their easy beliefs to work. And to believe, a lot of inconvenient facts have to be ignored. Those that raise them have to be silenced lest those inconvenient facts cease being ignored.
> ...


And here we go with the you hate Christians diatribe again. :bdh:

Obviously you keep missing the solutions we offer and the points we keep making. So let me try again. ANY religion in the hands of the poor, the superstitious and the ignorant can and most usually is turned to violence. It's that simple. Third world Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Animists, whatever are violent people who kill those they fear. Those their holy books tell them are evil. It's consistent across the board.

So what's the solution? Solve the problem of poverty and ignorance. That will end 99.9% of the violence we see attributed to religion.

We will never solve the problem though if we keep saying oh it's just THOSE people and their holy book. There is not anything inherent in Islam or the people's who follow it that makes them more violent than anyone else.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Tabitha said:


> Another thing, people fight wars and the like for various reasons, geopolitical, economic, In the past about ascendency to the throne. etc. the fact they are part of a religion has nothing to do with it, as in the case of Ireland.
> the Irish have been fighting along time to free their Island from British rule. What does that have to do with religion. And the British did not conquer them for religious reasons either.


Really? Cromwell. Seriously look him up and check out his motivations. It was most assuredly about religion and whose religion was right Catholic or Protestant. Catholics killed Protestants and Protestants killed Catholics and it was over theology and Church doctrine.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Yes, I did and do....so is your understand the same as mine no. My daddy was not a pastor, I don't blame religion for my life. I attend bible class we don't all agree.. but for the most part we all express personal responsibility to improve.

The majority of Christians are not standing up and holding marches in support of Christians ...mere mortals .... who are supporting evil.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

What is the difference between a believer and a non-believer?

Non-believers don't care that you believe. As long as you keep it to yourself, we rarely bring it up. It is the believers who insist on wearing it on their sleeves.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Agriculture said:


> What is the difference between a believer and a non-believer?
> 
> Non-believers don't care that you believe. As long as you keep it to yourself, we rarely bring it up. It is the believers who insist on wearing it on their sleeves.


Ok, seems that if true explain why non believers self proclaimed as say here on ht sure seem to be more vocal than silent.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Ok, seems that if true explain why non believers self proclaimed as say here on ht sure seem to be more vocal than silent.


Maybe because so much posted is about religion. What religion is good, what religion is bad. God says this so we want laws that reflect that. You getting it now?


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

What makes a person a non-believer? How did we get here? Who made us? Who made the world? Did the Earth just evolve?


----------



## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

Agriculture said:


> What is the difference between a believer and a non-believer?
> 
> Non-believers don't care that you believe. As long as you keep it to yourself, we rarely bring it up. It is the believers who insist on wearing it on their sleeves.



HA , for someone to not care that we believe you sure are Preaching against it. If you didn't care you wouldn't comment. If I commented every time a atheist tried to get Christians to convert (atheism is a religion) I would have no time at all. Atheist preach more than tent revival pastor.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

M5farm said:


> HA , for someone to not care that we believe you sure are Preaching against it. If you didn't care you wouldn't comment. If I commented every time a atheist tried to get Christians to convert (atheism is a religion) I would have no time at all. Atheist preach more than tent revival pastor.


Why is that tired old "atheism is a religion" pulled out by those who believe in a god. Is it the first step in trying to convince people there is a god?


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Agriculture said:


> Sometimes I think that the only ones who believe it are those who haven't read it. How can anyone swallow such nonsense, and then be able to say with a straight face that the parts which don't make sense are simply a story which we aren't capable of understanding. Oh, but the other parts are all true. Sure they are.


The Bible is much like a "software license agreement" in that most don't read the whole thing

They just scroll to the end and click "I agree"


----------



## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

kasilofhome said:


> Ok, seems that if true explain *why non believers self proclaimed as say here on ht sure seem to be more vocal than silent.*


How would you know about the silent ones?


----------



## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

Agriculture said:


> What is the difference between a believer and a non-believer?
> 
> Non-believers don't care that you believe. As long as you keep it to yourself, we rarely bring it up. It is the believers who insist on wearing it on their sleeves.





painterswife said:


> Why is that tired old "atheism is a religion" pulled out by those who believe in a god. Is it the first step in trying to convince people there is a god?


Im not trying to convince you of anything. 
Its a belief system, You don't have to believe me and you can deny it. but the next time you tell someone that there is no God you are trying to convert them to the non-believers side so therefore you are preaching your religion of non belief. That's the standard you hold Christians too. 

re-li-gion 


[ri-lij-uh n] 

Spell Syllables 

Examples 
Word Origin 




noun 


1. 

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 


2. 

a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: 



3. 

the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: 
a world council of religions.


----------



## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)




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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

M5farm said:


> Im not trying to convince you of anything.
> Its a belief system, You don't have to believe me and you can deny it. but the next time you tell someone that there is no God you are trying to convert them to the non-believers side so therefore you are preaching your religion of non belief. That's the standard you hold Christians too.
> 
> re-li-gion
> ...


That does not describe what an atheist at all. It is a good explanation about religion though.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

M5farm said:


>


Atheist
noun
1.
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Do you get the difference now?


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

painterswife said:


> Atheist
> noun
> 1.
> a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
> ...


disÂ·beÂ·lieve


/&#716;disb&#601;&#712;l&#275;v/


verb

3rd person present: disbelieves




be unable to believe (someone or something).
"he seemed to disbelieve her"


synonyms: not believe, give no credence to, discredit, discount, doubt, distrust, mistrust, be incredulous, be unconvinced; More
reject, repudiate, question, challenge; 

informaltake with a pinch of salt 


"we've learned to disbelieve most of Hubert's explanations"


â¢incredulous, doubtful, dubious, unconvinced; 
distrustful, mistrustful, suspicious, cynical, skeptical 


"he regretted having been so disbelieving" 




â¢have no faith in God, spiritual beings, or a religious system.
"to disbelieve is as much an act of faith as belief"

yet your still preaching your religion.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Sounds like Atheists would not live long in a Muslim Country.

Atheists in 13 countries face execution under the law if they openly express their beliefs or reject the official state religion -- Islam in all of these cases. While this ultimate punishment may be rare, there are a number of other outrageously harsh restrictions on the basic rights of nonbelievers around the world, from revoking citizenship to denying marriage.
For more on the most severe oppression of atheists around the world, read the 2013 edition of the Freedom of Thought report, published by the International Humanist and Ethical Union.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/16/atheists-discrimination_n_4413593.html


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Raeven said:


> How would you know about the silent ones?


Should it matter. Sorta like non voters...they exist.. and so be it.
BUT TO CLAIM THEY ARE WHO ARE CURRENTLY POSTING AS SILENT IF OUT AND OUT A LAUGHING LIE.

right up there with motherless children and fatherless children.... they have parents ...DNA confirms it.. they might not have living parents,might not know there parents but no one spontaneously appears.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

*M5farm* conveniently leaves out the most important distinction between a non-believer and a believer: The difference between *evidence-based* belief and *faith-based* belief. The difference is, as I have recently heard it put, like a rooster (faith-based) telling an elephant (evidence-based), "Look, let's just agree to stop stepping on each other's toes, ok?"

As a non-believer, I won't believe in anything that can't be backed up with evidence. Do I believe the sun will rise tomorrow? Yes, because we have evidence that it likely will. We understand planetary rotation around the sun, the fact that sunrise has happened millions of times before and there is nothing known that says it won't happen tomorrow. But notice I still said 'likely,' because I also admit that there is some remote probability it won't happen. Maybe we'll endure a gamma ray burst -- I don't know. (Those words are also important to a non-believer. "I don't know." It's really ok to use them.)

Faith-based belief allows you believe in anything you want. You can use the same arguments to "prove" your god as you can use them to "prove" unicorns, woodland fairy creatures and Santa Claus.

Now do you understand the difference, *M5farm*? If you've got actual evidence for your god, I'll believe in him/her. Until then, it's just Stuff People Hope Is True.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

gapeach said:


> Sounds like Atheists would not live long in a Muslim Country.
> 
> Atheists in 13 countries face execution under the law if they openly express their beliefs or reject the official state religion -- Islam in all of these cases. While this ultimate punishment may be rare, there are a number of other outrageously harsh restrictions on the basic rights of nonbelievers around the world, from revoking citizenship to denying marriage.
> For more on the most severe oppression of atheists around the world, read the 2013 edition of the Freedom of Thought report, published by the International Humanist and Ethical Union.
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/16/atheists-discrimination_n_4413593.html


We happen to live here. So what happens there has no bearing.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Well raven you join the cast of vocal non believers ..... if the silent speak they are not silent.

Maybe the truly silent one don't care. And do care what others believe.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Should it matter. Sorta like non voters...they exist.. and so be it.
> BUT TO CLAIM THEY ARE WHO ARE CURRENTLY POSTING AS SILENT IF OUT AND OUT A LAUGHING LIE.
> 
> right up there with motherless children and fatherless children.... they have parents ...DNA confirms it.. they might not have living parents,might not know there parents but no one spontaneously appears.


She was responding to a post. That is why it matters.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

kasilofhome said:


> Should it matter. Sorta like non voters...they exist.. and so be it.
> BUT TO CLAIM THEY ARE WHO ARE CURRENTLY POSTING AS SILENT IF OUT AND OUT A LAUGHING LIE.
> 
> right up there with motherless children and fatherless children.... they have parents ...DNA confirms it.. they might not have living parents,might not know there parents but no one spontaneously appears.


<shrug> You're the one who brought it up. I merely pointed out there may be quite a number of silent atheists on the site. And the vocal ones certainly don't outnumber the number of vocal believers on this site, so what's the relevance to anything?


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

kasilofhome said:


> Well raven you join the cast of vocal non believers ..... if the silent speak they are not silent.
> 
> Maybe the truly silent one don't care. And do care what others believe.


Relevance to anything? Or are you implying that only one point of view is to be tolerated on this site?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Raeven said:


> <shrug> You're the one who brought it up. I merely pointed out there may be quite a number of silent atheists on the site. And the vocal ones certainly don't outnumber the number of vocal believers on this site, so what's the relevance to anything?


Wrong....someone eles.....did...start on the non vocals.... I just laughed and pointed out the illogical point.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Raeven said:


> Relevance to anything? Or are you implying that only one point of view is to be tolerated on this site?


Like art... interpret as you wish.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

painterswife said:


> We happen to live here. So what happens there has no bearing.


Could be something to remember in case of traveling and just goes to show what can happen if they become politically active in this country.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

gapeach said:


> Could be something to remember in case of traveling and just goes to show what can happen if they become politically active in this country.


I guess if you need a way to justify bringing onto this conversation in some way.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

Raeven said:


> *M5farm* conveniently leaves out the most important distinction between a non-believer and a believer: The difference between *evidence-based* belief and *faith-based* belief. The difference is, as I have recently heard it put, like a rooster (faith-based) telling an elephant (evidence-based), "Look, let's just agree to stop stepping on each other's toes, ok?"
> 
> As a non-believer, I won't believe in anything that can't be backed up with evidence. Do I believe the sun will rise tomorrow? Yes, because we have evidence that it likely will. We understand planetary rotation around the sun, the fact that sunrise has happened millions of times before and there is nothing known that says it won't happen tomorrow. But notice I still said 'likely,' because I also admit that there is some remote probability it won't happen. Maybe we'll endure a gamma ray burst -- I don't know. (Those words are also important to a non-believer. "I don't know." It's really ok to use them.)
> 
> ...


Raeven, I do understand the difference. and I can tell from your writing we can have a conversation even though we disagree on some things. It also takes FAITH to believe this life is all we get... If you and the other atheist really don't believe then WHY do yall try so hard to refute those of us that do. . I only replied when other Christian members were being ridiculed. Its Ironic that every nationality and religious sect get defended except Christians. But I guess I should have expected it because The word of GOD said It would be like this. If I am wrong I lived a good moral life, If I am right I'll live a good after life. Its a WIN WIN situation


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

M5farm said:


> Raeven, I do understand the difference. and I can tell from your writing we can have a conversation even though we disagree on some things. It also takes FAITH to believe this life is all we get... If you and the other atheist really don't believe then WHY do yall try so hard to refute those of us that do. . I only replied when other Christian members were being ridiculed. Its Ironic that every nationality and religious sect get defended except Christians. But I guess I should have expected it because The word of GOD said It would be like this. If I am wrong I lived a good moral life, If I am right I'll live a good after life. Its a WIN WIN situation


I'll defend your right to believe as you choose, same as anyone else. But I won't defend the practice of some Christians to impose their beliefs on others by pretending they're oppressed because they're not being allowed to impose their beliefs on others (abortion, school prayer, gay marriage, etc.). Big difference. As I have seen it succinctly put, religious persecution is when you're prevented from *exercising* your beliefs -- not when you're prevented from *imposing* your beliefs.

Christianity is still the largest religion in the world, so I don't think you need worry too much about being persecuted. It's also the religion that is dominant in the USA, so it's the one constantly trying to insinuate itself into our nation's laws. I will fight against that tooth and nail from *any* religion trying to do that.

You asserted that it takes faith to believe this life is all we get. I don't even know what that means. I don't need faith to believe that. It's the only life we are assured of having -- because we're *actually living it*. It's that after-life thing that takes faith, and I've no reason to have any faith in that whatsoever.

I didn't step into this conversation until I saw you define non-belief as a religion. It isn't. As for your beliefs being ridiculed, I'm sorry, but it's a factual statement that there is no more *evidence* for a belief in a god than there is for belief in any other mythical creature. That's just the truth, and I can't help it that you view it as ridicule. It isn't meant that way. It's just where the evidence leads.


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Well, there are still blacks alive.... so is complaining about a few example real as the are where blacks get shot and killed... since logically more are living than killed...... is that the same point of view you ... raven hold as you do about Christians complaining about hostilities towards Christians that also end in death?


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

kasilofhome said:


> Well, there are still blacks alive.... so is complaining about a few example real as the are where blacks get shot and killed... since logically more are living than killed...... is that the same point of view you ... raven hold as you do about Christians complaining about hostilities towards Christians that also end in death?


Sorry, not following your logic. I see you trying to conflate two entirely different issues because they somehow make sense in your head. They don't, to me.


----------



## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

Raeven said:


> *M5farm* conveniently leaves out the most important distinction between a non-believer and a believer: The difference between *evidence-based* belief and *faith-based* belief. The difference is, as I have recently heard it put, like a rooster (faith-based) telling an elephant (evidence-based), "Look, let's just agree to stop stepping on each other's toes, ok?"
> 
> As a non-believer, I won't believe in anything that can't be backed up with evidence. Do I believe the sun will rise tomorrow? Yes, because we have evidence that it likely will. We understand planetary rotation around the sun, the fact that sunrise has happened millions of times before and there is nothing known that says it won't happen tomorrow. But notice I still said 'likely,' because I also admit that there is some remote probability it won't happen. Maybe we'll endure a gamma ray burst -- I don't know. (Those words are also important to a non-believer. "I don't know." It's really ok to use them.)
> 
> ...





Raeven said:


> I'll defend your right to believe as you choose, same as anyone else. *But I won't defend the practice of some Christians to impose their beliefs on others by pretending they're oppressed because they're not being allowed to impose their beliefs on others (abortion, school prayer, gay marriage, etc.). *Big difference. As I have seen it succinctly put, religious persecution is when you're prevented from *exercising* your beliefs -- not when you're prevented from *imposing* your beliefs.
> 
> Christianity is still the largest religion in the world, so I don't think you need worry too much about being persecuted. It's also the religion that is dominant in the USA, so it's the one constantly trying to insinuate itself into our nation's laws. I will fight against that tooth and nail from *any* religion trying to do that.
> 
> ...


Until This country is no longer free You and I can continue to impose our beliefs on anyone we choose. I have faith GOD exist you have Faith it doesn't I tell people I believe In God you tell people you don't . we both are preaching a message and If I preach I'm religious, If you preach your.....well....uh..uh..._____________(fill in the blank) Just another case of Double standards.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

M5farm said:


> Until This country is no longer free You and I can continue to impose our beliefs on anyone we choose. I have faith GOD exist you have Faith it doesn't I tell people I believe In God you tell people you don't . we both are preaching a message and If I preach I'm religious, If you preach your.....well....uh..uh..._____________(fill in the blank) Just another case of Double standards.


Oh, yes, we are both free to say what we believe. But I can't force you to have an abortion, or marry another man (I'm assuming your male, apologies if I've got that wrong), or renounce your god. And likewise, you can't force me to not have an abortion, not marry a woman (not that I'm inclined) or renounce my non-belief in a god. No double standard whatsoever.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I don't believe in the tooth fairy. I guess that is a religion.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Well, you state that Christians complain about oppression...but they are numerous.

Well blacks sure do complain too.. heck they riot and loot...now it's shoot the blues.

Well since as you stated



Christianity is still the largest religion in the world, so I don't think you need worry too much about being persecuted. 

Thus I took that as numbers of surviving members that claim persecution makes a difference to you... which got me wondering if you held that same view for blacks.

Now,just as Christian on Christian killing could not be counted as oppression...nor could black on black killings. When the stats for blacks killing negate black on black killings.. the numbers are much lower for death by murder.

So, are they--- black out of line to complain of oppression.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

M5farm said:


> HA , for someone to not care that we believe you sure are Preaching against it. If you didn't care you wouldn't comment. If I commented every time a atheist tried to get Christians to convert (atheism is a religion) I would have no time at all. Atheist preach more than tent revival pastor.


There is a vast difference between pointing out when a poster here says something about Christians or their history that is blatantly false and we step in to provide the facts of the matter and people proselytizing. 

You will find posters like myself and others here who just can't stand to see a falsehood promoted and passed around without refuting it. We do the same thing in threads about any possible topic under the sun. 

I don't care what your faith or non-faith is so long as it makes you happy and you don't try to use it against me.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

M5farm said:


>



^^That^^ is absolutely false and insulting but I am sure you felt very clever and amusing posting it.


----------



## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

kasilofhome said:


> Well, you state that Christians complain about oppression...but they are numerous.
> 
> Well blacks sure do complain too.. heck they riot and loot...now it's shoot the blues.
> 
> ...


It's probably worth noting, there are more blacks in Africa than anywhere else -- yet you rarely hear about them rioting and looting there except in circumstances where they are similarly oppressed. Perhaps there's something else at work than just their race? Is that possible? 

Just because you see some weird similarity between one thing and the other by making a whole lot of bigoted unfounded assumptions ("blacks riot and loot") doesn't mean that I do. Prove first that blacks are any more prone to rioting and looting than any other oppressed community. And yes, let's not forget that blacks are a minority, only 13.2% of Americans -- unlike Christians (70.6%). So you might also want to spend some time familiarizing yourself with another concept: Proportionality.


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

painterswife said:


> Why is that tired old "atheism is a religion" pulled out by those who believe in a god. Is it the first step in trying to convince people there is a god?


Because atheism is a belief system, just like any other.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Jolly said:


> Because atheism is a belief system, just like any other.


No it is not or not believing in the tooth fairy would be a religion. The operative words are "don't believe". No belief, no belief system.


----------



## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> What I'm comparing is the reaction of two groups of people in different times in history. Many Poles seemingly took the opportunity of Nazi invasion to strengthen their ties to the new rulers or to redress whatever long, deep seated grievances they had to their neighbors. It wasn't a new or isolated phenomena then nor is it one now. It shouldn't have been excused and hidden then nor should it now. It should be fought against and loudly denounced by all. But it won't stop it from happening somewhere, to some group who thought themselves safe, sometime in the future.


Road apples.

So by this simple statement, I beg to ask

Do you support George Soros?


Being a Pole of German descent (WAYYYYYY back in the 15th century) do you feel the same over Northern Ireland, the Brits, the IRA?

How about the Huegonots? Arborites? Jan Zizka?

Same situation.
Those who do not know or study history are doomed to repeat it


----------



## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> The bible can be cherry picked by christians to say pretty much the same thing. Muslims bad, christians good. Blah blah blah
> 
> It's all in the interpretation, thankfully (for some) the bible and quran were deliberately written to be so vague that it could mean many many things, especially if the reader _wants_ it to mean something. Both are similar to bad poetry in that respect.


History is written by the winners.

One version is repent or spend enterity in hell

The other is convert or die

As for me, I stand with my forefathers that came to this country to *escape* religious persecution, to live and be able to eat bacon and walk my dog down the road, with my wife by my side.

Not having sex with a prepubesent boy, getting stoned to death for having a dog, or having my wife *required* to be covered except for her eyes, walking 4 steps behind me.


----------



## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> ^^That^^ is absolutely false and insulting but I am sure you felt very clever and amusing posting it.


If science was absolute, bumblebees (being aerodynamically unsound) *COULD NOT FLY* 

Just sayin'


----------



## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

Jolly said:


> Because atheism is a belief system, just like any other.


LOL, I love learning I'm on someone's 'ignore' list, because hilarious posts like this always ensue.


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14217148
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/...urg-anti-immigrant-riots-150419065622979.html
http://guardianlv.com/2014/05/riots-erupt-in-south-africa-township-after-final-election-results/
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=africa+riots&qpvt=africa+riots+&FORM=IGRE
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durban_Riot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_xenophobic_riots_(2015)
http://www.technologyreview.com/view/517396/south-africa-riots-and-the-price-of-food/

licts in Africa
This is a list of conflicts in Africa arranged by country, both on the continent and associated islands, including wars between African nations, civil wars, and wars involving non-African nations that took place within Africa. It encompasses colonial wars, wars of independence, secessionist and separatist conflicts, major episodes of national violence (riots, massacres, etc.), and global conflicts in which Africa was a theatre of war.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Africa


----------



## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

And before anyone gets all hurt and accuses me of being a "religious righty" I will state this as I have before, many times.....




I am a lapsed Lutheran, who believes that no good deed will go unpunished.
I both hope and fear there is an afterlife
(see comment 1)
I believe that if you do something wrong, someone's karma will run over you dogma
I try to be the owner my dog aspires to be
I try to be the father that my kids hope to be

If you don't like MY rights, but want to respect YOURS, you should look in a mirror.

And remember, when you point a finger, there are 3 more pointing back at you


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Raeven said:


> It's probably worth noting, there are more blacks in Africa than anywhere else -- yet you rarely hear about them rioting and looting there except in circumstances where they are similarly oppressed. Perhaps there's something else at work than just their race? Is that possible?
> 
> Just because you see some weird similarity between one thing and the other by making a whole lot of bigoted unfounded assumptions ("blacks riot and loot") doesn't mean that I do. Prove first that blacks are any more prone to rioting and looting than any other oppressed community. And yes, let's not forget that blacks are a minority, only 13.2% of Americans -- unlike Christians (70.6%). So you might also want to spend some time familiarizing yourself with another concept: Proportionality.


Nobody here thinks all black people loot and riot. You must have read some of the threads about Black Lives Matter. Those people do riot and loot and protest anytime anybody will put up with them. There as many whites in the Black Lives Matter movement as blacks. They love that money from George Soros.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

kasilofhome said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14217148
> http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/...urg-anti-immigrant-riots-150419065622979.html
> http://guardianlv.com/2014/05/riots-erupt-in-south-africa-township-after-final-election-results/
> http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=africa+riots&qpvt=africa+riots+&FORM=IGRE
> ...


You need to re-read what I posted. You often overlook parts of a post you don't like. My speech is very precise, and I mean *every* part of what I say.

I never said Africans never riot or loot. I said there is no evidence they riot or loot *more than any other race when they are oppressed*. Oppression is the very definition of wars of every kind. None of your links shows otherwise.


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Ok, can you do more than state such a claim?..can you provide facts.
Or are we going on FAITH?


----------



## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

kasilofhome said:


> Ok, can you do more than state such a claim?..can you provide facts.
> Or are we going on FAITH?


It was you who made the claim that blacks "riot and loot" more than Christians. He (she) who asserts must bring proof of his (her) assertion. Not my job to prove or disprove your claim.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Raeven said:


> It was you who made the claim that blacks "riot and loot" more than Christians. He (she) who asserts must bring proof of his (her) assertion. Not my job to prove or disprove your claim.


She did not mean that no blacks are Christians. Just the opposite.
All the black or brown people I know are very committed Christians and they don't riot or loot either.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> And here we go with the you hate Christians diatribe again. :bdh:
> 
> Obviously you keep missing the solutions we offer and the points we keep making. So let me try again. ANY religion in the hands of the poor, the superstitious and the ignorant can and most usually is turned to violence. It's that simple. Third world Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Animists, whatever are violent people who kill those they fear. Those their holy books tell them are evil. It's consistent across the board.
> 
> ...


But that is exactly what you do- constantly saying it's THOSE people and their holy book. Although til this minute it was only Christianity and their holy book, this is much more truthful. Picking Christianity was only because there were Christians posting it here to pick on. In truth, I think some people think out hating is the way to change the world.

Revolutionary without manifesto. 

Communists, although they simply changed from a theological Bible to a sectarian Bible, actually achieved a much higher level of violence than any even semi theocracy. They did so with attempts to end poverty and ignorance by fiat. What they did achieve was making the masses equally miserable, poor and powerless. They managed to attack their own citizens with equal or usually superior vigor to any external enemy. But they were pretty free of religion. Wonder why they never succeeded.....

Oh, well. Any who believes that religion is only acceptable for those too ignorant to do otherwise is never going to do better than the Communists anyway. Simply saying "end poverty and ignorance" does not qualify as an idea at all. It"s the 'shining city" only there is no road to it.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Raeven said:


> It was you who made the claim that blacks "riot and loot" more than Christians. He (she) who asserts must bring proof of his (her) assertion. Not my job to prove or disprove your claim.


So you assert........


----------



## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

where I want to said:


> So you assert........


No, I simply chose to not believe what she said until she shows proof of its truthfulness.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Agriculture said:


> What is the difference between a believer and a non-believer?
> 
> Non-believers don't care that you believe. As long as you keep it to yourself, we rarely bring it up. It is the believers who insist on wearing it on their sleeves.


Real Life Award


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> Real Life Award


One of the loudest silent voice award.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

kasilofhome said:


> One of the loudest silent voice award.


Don't be hatin' :nono:


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Patchouli said:


> Oh please. God sent people to die in his name in the Bible. Read your own book. He sent them to kill men, women and children.



That would be in the instructions to the Jews. 
While there is a lot of good advise there it isn't Christianity.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> That would be in the instructions to the Jews.
> While there is a lot of good advise there it isn't Christianity.


Yet christians use the old testament for the commandments and to cherry pick parts to condemn gays all the time...


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

And non believers want to educate those of faith how they are to live and believe?...


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> And non believers want to educate those of faith how they are to live and believe?...


Why not. Believers like to tell other believers the same thing.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Riverdale said:


> And before anyone gets all hurt and accuses me of being a "religious righty" I will state this as I have before, many times.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So basically you are a walking cliche generator?


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

where I want to said:


> But that is exactly what you do- constantly saying it's THOSE people and their holy book. Although til this minute it was only Christianity and their holy book, this is much more truthful. Picking Christianity was only because there were Christians posting it here to pick on. In truth, I think some people think out hating is the way to change the world.
> 
> Revolutionary without manifesto.
> 
> ...


In order to have a conversation you have to actually listen to what the other person is saying. Not just look for what suits your argument and then build a strawman on it. 

I never said "religion is only acceptable for those too ignorant to do otherwise". I said: ANY religion in the hands of the poor, the superstitious and the ignorant can and most usually is turned to violence.

Work on your reading comprehension or make some effort to address what I actually say and then we can have a discussion. In future I will not respond to any of your posts that don't make that effort.


----------



## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> You do realize that christians used the same playbook during the multiple crusades and both inquisitions, right?
> 
> A holy war is a holy war, it's still fought in god's name.


You would have a leg to stand on if the crusaders had invaded Arabia and sacked Mecca. 

For hundreds of years,(notice that Mohammed did not live until the seventh) the whole ME, Northafrica, parts of Central Asia were Christian. The seven churches of Revelation were located in Turkey. Then Islam arose and by violence took it all over. Where are all the Christians in those areas? In Syria up to recently there were a few, emphasis few, almost 2000 year old Christian communities left. 

(Have you ever heard of the Hagia Sofia?)

We can agree that Jesus was born in the holy land, he was killed there, rose from the dead there, it was the homeland of all the apostles and the cradle of Christianity. Maybe someone can understand that it was extremely important and holy to christians. 

The crusaders attempted to take back the holy land from the Muslims. That was very evil of them according to modern western thinking.

Look at the battle map I posted. 

The inquisiton based on the bible? 
Who came up with that one? 

Lets call it TPTB of the time, shall we? They like to stay that way. Catholics were not even allowed to read the Bible. But from the foundation of the Rom. Cath. church (basically an amalgam of the three major religions of the Roman empire at the time) there had been resistance to it by followers of the early Christians, who were called heretics, and who were killed, persecuted, etc., etc.. They were a threat to the emerging power structure because they said the church was wrong. The church was striving for a universal church with power centered in Rome. (totally unscriptural) 

The inquisition was the attempt to keep people in line, keep a lid on, stay in power. The ultimate PC, or rather RC. To shut up those who presented a danger. I am sure you are familiar with people like Wycliff and Jan Hus. 
You realize the first thing that happened after the invention of the printing press, bibles became available. 
The reformation was inevitable. The moment people had access to the Bible they turned away from the church. 

I would like to know how you can base the inquisition on the bible. It was a political program wrapped in a religious cloak. 

So, with this out of the way, Christians this minute are being persecuted, tortured, have their heads cut off, some crucified, and surprisingly, maybe not, nobody cares. It is only Christians. I sense an undercurrent of glee at their plight in some circles. 

They are even harassed and persecuted in refugee centers in Germany. Nothing has been done to protect them, only the police pointed out they should be housed separately. Maybe they have in the meantime.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Tabitha said:


> You would have a leg to stand on if the crusaders had invaded Arabia and sacked Mecca.
> 
> For hundreds of years,(notice that Mohammed did not live until the seventh) the whole ME, Northafrica, parts of Central Asia were Christian. The seven churches of Revelation were located in Turkey. Then Islam arose and by violence took it all over. Where are all the Christians in those areas? In Syria up to recently there were a few, emphasis few, almost 2000 year old Christian communities left.
> (Have you ever heard of the Hagia Sofia)
> ...


You missed my point.  Christians and muslims have both killed, raped, and destroyed in the name of their god. One religion is no better than the other. 

I have no idea what you're talking about in most of your post. Perhaps you should go back and reread mine?


----------



## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Why not. Believers like to tell other believers the same thing.


Believers preach their faith based on a holy book. 
What are your holy sources, what do you base your believes on?


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Tabitha said:


> Believers preach their faith based on a holy book.
> What are your holy sources, what do you base your believes on?


I don't have beliefs as you quantify them. I have reality as I know it.


----------



## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> You missed my point.  Christians and muslims have both killed, raped, and destroyed in the name of their god. One religion is no better than the other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Say, do you read and comprehend what others post? 
I addressed this already. 

One of the differences of the two religions is:

Muslims commit violence, it is by order of their prophet.
Christians commit violence, it is contrary to their founder. 


As to the topic of crusades and the inquistion. 
Maybe I did not express myself clearly enough? My daughter always tells me that people don't know what I am talking about and I assume they do. 

Will somebody give me some feed back and tell me if they were able to follow my post dealing with the crusades and the inquisition?
I realize history is not everybody's cup of tea, but I had to address it as it was brought up, and in the usual way like, 'see what the Christians did, so there'. 
Unfortunately a lot of Christians are very ignorant of their own history.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Tabitha said:


> Maybe I did not express myself clearly enough? My daughter always tells me that people don't know what I am talking about and I assume they do.
> 
> Will somebody give me some feed back and tell me if they were able to follow my post?


Nope. Christians that kill, rape, and destroy are still doing it for their god and from the teachings of their religion. Just like muslims.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Tabitha said:


> Say, do you read and comprehend what others post?
> I addressed this already.
> 
> One of the differences of the two religions is:
> ...


Which founder would that be? If you are talking Yahweh he was pretty violent and sent his people to kill a whole lot of other people. If you are talking about Jesus he went back and forth on the violence issue. Sometimes he said turn the other cheek and other times he said go buy a sword. And then there is the version in Revelation who is pretty warlike.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Tabitha said:


> Say, do you read and comprehend what others post?
> I addressed this already.
> 
> One of the differences of the two religions is:
> ...


The period following basic end of the Roman Empire to just prior to the Renaissance was almost ignored in every school I ever went. There might be a casual mention of Charlemagne or Constantine but mostly nothing as if nothing was going on.
But in truth it was one of the most active periods for change of western history and is immediately recognizable as the source for much of the modern world. Reading a few books on it was a constant "oh that's how this came about." And "so that's why they are like this." 

What is called history in public schools is almost like Disneyland version of reality. People get an awfully distorted view from it yet they are convinced they have been taught correctly.

But you are right in thinking that there is no use in discussing it. It simply doesn't fit the belief system so at best you will get a few minutes of silence before the same old comments get trotted out. There's a sort of Wile E Coyote vib to it- no matter how many times the bomb goes off in his face, he simply proceeds to open the next Acme package and does the same thing.


----------



## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> So basically you are a walking cliche generator?


Seems like the only way some Liberals know how to communicate


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Riverdale said:


> Seems like the only way some Liberals know how to communicate


You don't appear to be liberal...


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Yet christians use the old testament for the commandments and to cherry pick parts to condemn gays all the time...



Like I said there is a lot of good advice there!


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> You missed my point.  Christians and muslims have both killed, raped, and destroyed in the name of their god. One religion is no better than the other.
> 
> I have no idea what you're talking about in most of your post. Perhaps you should go back and reread mine?



But your point is wrong Christians have never done that. 
By definition if they did that they were not Christ like so they were not Christians.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> But your point is wrong Christians have never done that.
> By definition if they did that they were not Christ like so they were not Christians.


So if someone says they're christian, worships every Sunday in a christian church, they aren't really christian? 

Ok, if you say so...


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> So if someone says they're christian, worships every Sunday in a christian church, they aren't really christian?
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, if you say so...



Lol Yes that's correct. 

I saw a poodle once with his hair cut to look like Elvis. 
That didn't make him Elvis. 
Or even a. Hounddawg !


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol Yes that's correct.
> 
> I saw a poodle once with his hair cut to look like Elvis.
> That didn't make him Elvis.
> Or even a. Hounddawg !




Did the poodle think he was Elvis? Did the poodle live like Elvis? Did the poodle follow the teachings of Elvis?


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> So if someone says they're christian, worships every Sunday in a christian church, they aren't really christian?
> 
> Ok, if you say so...


You are confusing Christian w/religious denomination, like say, Lutheran, Methodist. 
When folks here talk about folks not being "Christain" they mean they are in name only, not following the teachings of Christ very well. 
Anyone correct me if that's not correct...


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Tricky Grama said:


> You are confusing Christian w/religious denomination, like say, Lutheran, Methodist.
> When folks here talk about folks not being "Christain" they mean they are in name only, not following the teachings of Christ very well.
> Anyone correct me if that's not correct...


And again, my point is that they consider themselves christian, following their god, and the teaching of their religion. Just like muslims. Members of both religions have killed, raped, and destroyed for their "faith". Neither one is better than the other.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Stop trying to compare Christians to Muslims. It just does not wash. 
Christians have not put any car bombs in NYC. They have not got on airplanes with a bomb in their shoes. They have not flown any airplanes into buildings. They have not beheaded people in the United States. They have not shot up a Military Base.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Again, take a look at the numbers...
Maybe we could compare the evil murderous Hindu monks to Islam, Christainity. B/c at least a couple have gone berserk & killed...
Looking at the numbers & the events of the last few decades tells us that Islam is a threat to everyone. Even other muslims.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> You are confusing Christian w/religious denomination, like say, Lutheran, Methodist.
> When folks here talk about folks not being "Christain" they mean they are in name only, not following the teachings of Christ very well.
> Anyone correct me if that's not correct...


If there is advantage in the appearance of being a member in a group yet when tested a person goes against the tenets of the group, they are simply taking advantage. When they do that in the Christian faith, you thus say they are not christian. 
This idea is routinely condemned by the anti Christian posters.
So by that thinking, the people who claim to be Muslims yet have many members who tolerate even create violence apparently in contradiction to Islamic tenets should be also condemned as sham. Yet that does not happen. 
Just trying to think this argument through where every Christian who fails any standard of their religion is used to condemn the whole religion as a sham deserving no respect while it does not seem to have the same effect if Muslim.
Does lead to the idea that the basis for anti Christian posting and the absence of defense of the Christian religion in the same way that Islam is defended on the boards has another agenda going on. I wonder what it is.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

where I want to said:


> If there is advantage in the appearance of being a member in a group yet when tested a person goes against the tenets of the group, they are simply taking advantage. When they do that in the Christian faith, you thus say they are not christian.
> This idea is routinely condemned by the anti Christian posters.
> So by that thinking, the people who claim to be Muslims yet have many members who tolerate even create violence apparently in contradiction to Islamic tenets should be also condemned as sham. Yet that does not happen.
> Just trying to think this argument through where every Christian who fails any standard of their religion is used to condemn the whole religion as a sham deserving no respect while it does not seem to have the same effect if Muslim.
> Does lead to the idea that the basis for anti Christian posting and the absence of defense of the Christian religion in the same way that Islam is defended on the boards has another agenda going on. I wonder what it is.


You might notice that we call them radical Muslims when we have those discussions. That difference does not seem to be accepted by many here. Funny it is that same group that wants to decide who is Christian and who is not. Not us we still call them Muslims and Christians. We just agree that all religions have groups that do horrible things in the name of their religion.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Tricky Grama said:


> Again, take a look at the numbers...
> Maybe we could compare the evil murderous Hindu monks to Islam, Christainity. B/c at least a couple have gone berserk & killed...
> Looking at the numbers & the events of the last few decades tells us that Islam is a threat to everyone. Even other muslims.



I see. What's the number of acceptable christian killings, rapes, and destruction? Is it the same for muslims? Can't use decades, it's been going on for centuries...


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

In many cases of Christians attacking Muslims, at least in Africa, it is revenge or tit for tat. 
What happened thousands of yrs ago does not matter a whit today. It is what is now that we should worry about!
*Christians, other religious minorities fight to survive in age of Islamic State*

By Hannah Allam
[email protected]October 14, 2015 

WASHINGTON â The proliferation of violent extremists in the years since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq has left Christians and other ancient communities in the Middle East fighting for survival as they are forced to âconvert, pay a ruinous tax, or die,â according to a State Department report released Wednesday.
Non-state actors such as the Islamic State are now the worldâs worst persecutors, a change from a century ago, when governments were the chief violators of religious freedom, Secretary of State John Kerry told reporters as he introduced the departmentâs annual report on the state of religious freedom across the globe. The report compiles and analyzes events for 2014; attacks have continued unabated, so the numbers of dead and displaced are even higher now.
Though jihadists have killed exponentially more Muslims than non-Muslims, thereâs a special focus on the targeting of Christians and minority sects because of fears theyâll be wiped out in their ancestral lands, an age-old presence erased as the Islamic State redraws the map of the region. The report emphasizes that in 2014 âmembers of religious minorities were disproportionately affectedâ by the violence from non-state actors who have âset their sights on destroying religious diversity.â
In Iraq, according to the State Department report, church leaders estimate that only about half a million Christians remain from a population that once numbered as many as 1.4 million. The report says that up to 200,000 Christians, some 300,000 Yazidis and thousands of Kakais are among nearly a million Iraqis whoâve been internally displaced. 
read more...........
http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/10/14/4035374/christians-other-religious-minorities.html


âThe flow of immigrants is a very direct result of the politics taken by Westerners,â Younan said, according to news reports. âThese nations must accept refugees. Surely, refuges are not the best way to solve the crisis. But if the world believes in freedom of  movement and the right of immigration, then these countries must welcome the refugees from policies they helped create.â

And we should be very wary and concerned about these refugees settling in the United States.


Read more here: http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/...other-religious-minorities.html#storylink=cpy
Read more here: http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/...other-religious-minorities.html#storylink=cpy
read




Read more here: http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/...other-religious-minorities.html#storylink=cpy​


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> In many cases of Christians attacking Muslims, at least in Africa, it is revenge or tit for tat.
> What happened thousands of yrs ago does not matter a whit today. It is what is now that we should worry about!
> *Christians, other religious minorities fight to survive in age of Islamic State*
> 
> ...


I'm glad you can find things like this that you can use to justify to yourself the hate you feel for a religion that is basically the same as your own. Both have killed, raped, and destroyed in the name of their god and the teachings of their religion. One is no better than that other, but if non stories like this one make you feel better, it's all good.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> Stop trying to compare Christians to Muslims. It just does not wash.
> Christians have not put any car bombs in NYC. They have not got on airplanes with a bomb in their shoes. They have not flown any airplanes into buildings. They have not beheaded people in the United States. They have not shot up a Military Base.


Christians have planted plenty of bombs over the last couple of decades.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Wow- could it be a rational conclusion that it is to be expected that members of a faith actually follow the tenets of that religion yet that it is grossly unfair that they be attacked for doing so (especially with selectivity) and simultaneously attacked for not doing so by people who feel free from those tenets?
Could there actually be a bigotry issue with people who insist that all posters respect the members of one religion of which they are not a member while never themselves showing any respect for religious members? 
Could it actually be a tantrum over being disagreed with and not having the power to silence it?


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm glad you can find things like this that you can use to justify to yourself the hate you feel for a religion that is basically the same as your own. Both have killed, raped, and destroyed in the name of their god and the teachings of their religion. One is no better than that other, but if non stories like this one make you feel better, it's all good.


This is a non-story? Sorry it is not convenient for you but facts matter.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I see. What's the number of acceptable christian killings, rapes, and destruction? Is it the same for muslims? Can't use decades, it's been going on for centuries...


I was trying to keep it fairly simple. Whatever time measurement you use, Islam has been more murderous, more disruptive in the entire world than Christianity.
If we go back thousands of years, same same. Last few decades, same same.
Islam is a world-wide threat & it pretty much always has been.
Tripoli, our Marines, NYC, Boston, on & on.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Tricky Grama said:


> I was trying to keep it fairly simple. Whatever time measurement you use, Islam has been more murderous, more disruptive in the entire world than Christianity.
> If we go back thousands of years, same same. Last few decades, same same.
> Islam is a world-wide threat & it pretty much always has been.
> Tripoli, our Marines, NYC, Boston, on & on.


Of course they have, even if there's not a shred of truth to it...


----------



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Of course they have, even if there's not a shred of truth to it...


Please refute the evidence, since you say it's not true. History is not your friend here.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

JeffreyD said:


> Please refute the evidence, since you say it's not true. History is not your friend here.



Nah. It's not evidence, it's opinion that was put forth as fact. 


Oh, my. Are you trying to bait me into posting? :hysterical:


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Anybody who reads this and still defends more Muslims immigrating into the United States needs their heads examined. Also anyone who is defending Islam should take some deep breaths before reading it.

https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy...uslims-shows-thousands-support-shariah-jihad/

Center for Security Policy*Poll of U.S. Muslims Reveals Ominous Levels Of Support For Islamic Supremacists&#8217; Doctrine of Shariah, Jihad*

Press Releases | June 23, 2015 | The Muslim Brotherhood in America, Understanding the Shariah Threat Doctrine
https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy...uslims-shows-thousands-support-shariah-jihad/


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Who has defended muslim extremists? Can you point out just one example, please? Pretty please?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Nah. It's not evidence, it's opinion that was put forth as fact.
> 
> 
> Oh, my. Are you trying to bait me into posting? :hysterical:


Bait you? No. I asked a very simple question about a post of YOURS and even quoted it for you. :shrug::umno:

You posted:

"Of course they have, even if there's *not a shred of truth to it...*"

I asked you to:

"Please refute the evidence, since you say it's not true."

So, is it your opinion that its not true, or do you have evidence to back up YOUR claim as bolded above?


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