# Alfalfa causes bloat?



## littlequail (Aug 5, 2011)

oh yes, it happened i met a nice girl she seemed to talk alot about her goats and what to do and not to do... but when we talked about her goats, and then i talked about my goats...how she feeds her "round bales" and asked what kind of hay is that? she just said "its hay" i said..ok. "well i feed mine alfalfa" square bales and pellets and they get a Mix of grain mix, she then told me "oh?no...you know you feed to much alfalfa and they will have bloat and die. you can then take a knife and stab her side to let out the gas if that happens if your lucky..so you shouldn't feed them that. just hay" :huh: was my face, and still is...i have had these goats since November they get a flake every other day or every 3rd day (because of the price) And/but they get Pellets EVERY afternoon. as much as they like. i Never had any problems. they look very healthy..seem to Love the Alfalfa there was a few other things she told me about goats that am unsure about.. but she said she has had goats for a very Long time...let me know what you think


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

It's an old wives tale....most of us have heard it before, and it is completely untrue. Your new friend has been the victim of old-timer stories.

Dang, used to have some links to studies about the positive effects of an alfalfa diet on goats, but I don't know where they are now.


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## Kits&Kids (Feb 10, 2012)

i have raised goats for 7 years and have feed alfalfa only and have never had a goat bloat.maby some people have other contributing factors.have never had u/c either.maby i should cross my fingers.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Nope, Kits&Kids, no finger crossing needed. Alfalfa has been shown thousands of times to have ONLY positive effects on goats.

But even I still get old-timers, or those who have been educated by old-timers, telling me, "You feed your goats alfalfa? They will DIE!"

I have no idea where this came from, unless they are confusing goats with horses. In southern states, many haying practices cause the alfalfa to have bits of shredded blister beetles in them. Even ONE ingested blister beetle can kill a horse. Goats don't seem to have a problem with them.


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

I have sort of the same story but not about bloat. I was told by a assistant manager where I get mine from how bad it was for goats. Someone who raises for 4H and was in the ffa as a kid. I was so upset I posted the story on here and talked to their regional manager about it. 

I have learned each person you talk to will have different good and bad things dealing with goats. This is when you have to research for yourself and make up your own mind. Lucky for us who have found this place we have people to help show us the right way. We (my mom and me) know someone that has raised goats for a VERY long time, works the auction pricing the goats, and he came up to my mom and asked how she got her goats to look so healthy. Mom listed off some stuff and one being mineral. He looked at her shocked and said mineral... never heard of that. Mom just said Yes and make sure its loose and walked away :huh:


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

LOL, oh yes, lots of wives tales surrounding goats. Never give them alfalfa, it will cause them to get milk fever. Never give them alfalfa, it will make them bloat. Corid will kill them. They can eat anything (except alfalfa I guess). Copper is toxic and will kill your goat, etc.

There are so many tales and so many long time breeders who have done no research and keep perpetuating the misinformation that so often leads to death of goats for people new to them.


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## Kits&Kids (Feb 10, 2012)

thats the problem.take two people who have raised goats for 20 yrs one might know it all and one might know nothing but think they know it all.


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## lazysheep (Dec 2, 2011)

As hay growers and goat and cattle producers, we can say with certainty that alfalfa will indeed cause bloat in goats and cows and sheep. The key is in storing the hay until the enzyme action is done with the curing process. This can take up to 90 days with some alfalfa. If you turn your cows or sheep or goats out on less than very mature alfalfa, or feed freshly cut or freshly baled hay, they will bloat. It has happened to us with the goats. We never feed fresh cut alfalfa to the sheep, nor do we graze the cows on the alfalfa pastures without first filling them with grass hay. This is not a myth or old wives tale. Check with your local extension agent and they can confirm this.


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## lazysheep (Dec 2, 2011)

I should also mention that I fed my goats 100% alfalfa for 10 years- even the bucks (which is not always recommended), and did not have any problems when the hay was properly cured. Alfalfa kept our does and bucks fertile and healthy with multiple births, and minimal need for constant grain and mineral dosing. I supplemented of course, but it was mostly with the pregnant/milking does and the bucks in the dead of winter and during breeding season. Everyone's situation will be a bit different. That's the part where we are to be good shepherds by observing our flocks and herds.


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## Kits&Kids (Feb 10, 2012)

well unfortunately my extencion agent has no first hand experiance with this but only what he read in some documents.the pay doesent always equal the smarts.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Ahhhh, so it is true of FRESH alfalfa, which doesn't apply to cured hay or pellets.


Although kind of curious. When I lived in Colorado (Aurora), alfalfa grew wild everywhere, even in the medians of parking lots, and on the gun range next door. My goats devoured it along with the wild geranium and wild morning glories that were abundant everywhere, and no one ever bloated. That might be because they were picking and choosing what parts of the fresh, growing alfalfa to eat.

Thaiblue, do you have alfalfa growing on your place up there? What's your experience?


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Here is a link about bloat caused in cattle by alfalfa and why: http://www.midwestforage.org/pdf/62.pdf.pdf


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Here is one discussing bloat in goats: http://kinne.net/bloat.htm

"Frothy bloat" the kind caused by damp legumes (ALL legumes, not just alfalfa) or being turned out on new, lush pasture seems to be where this comes from.


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## Kits&Kids (Feb 10, 2012)

go slow on legume pastures and you should have no problems.if the gate stays open from day one i wish you luck.go slow for best results


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## lazysheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Kits&Kids said:


> well unfortunately my extencion agent has no first hand experiance with this but only what he read in some documents.the pay doesent always equal the smarts.


Agree totally. Applies to some vets too.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Heck, lazysheep, when it comes to small ruminants, it applies to MOST vets.

Kit&Kids, my goats had access to their pastures 24/7, 365. My lack of problems with fresh growing legumes probably had to do to the fact that, since they always had access, there was never a run to the pasture to stuff themselves silly on everything they could get their mouths upon.

Since the drought down here, I have been dry-lotting my goats and only allowing them to pasture with supervision. I have one buck that, if I don't watch him, will stuff himself silly and bloat even on our barely recovering, not-lush-at-all winter pasture and woods brush.


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## Lada (Jun 7, 2008)

I have friends who live in CO and pasture their goats and you are right...out there there is no getting away from the stuff. Here is what I think is key. If they are on the pasture all the time, in the spring when the stuff first starts sprouting, they start eating on it. So, the process is naturally gradual. And throughout the growing season, they will eat on it, but won't gorge on it because it's always available. There's a big difference between that method and keeping them out of the alfalfa feed most of the time, but then allowing them on it to go crazy once (or what will happen if one gets out of the pen and ends up in the alfalfa field).

Oh, and this is true for ALL fresh pasture, not just alfalfa. Nothing worse than a goat that's been on hay all winter and early spring suddenly getting loose and stuffing themselves on new, fresh, grass that's still wet with dew.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Yep, suddenly stuffing themselves on new pasture will cause problems. Actually, suddenly stuffing themselves on anything they aren't used to (except maybe grass hay) will cause problems. That is why diet changes should always be made slowly.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Heck, *I* get "bloat" if I stuff myself on food. 

Srsly, though, it seems to me that it's not the alfalfa causing bloat, but the organism in poorly cured hay.

My goats eat fresh when it's available, and we've not had a problem. They also love to eat the cowpeas right off the vine. Oh, and they eat the pea vines, too. 

Just a matter of balance.


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## JBarGFarmKeeper (Nov 1, 2011)

littlequail said:


> ...how she feeds her "round bales" and asked what kind of hay is that? she just said "its hay" i said..ok.


This is the part that caught my attention....

I would NEVER set a round bale out for my goats...EVER.

I had read about this practice (not to do it) for years. Last spring we were leaving for a show and took all the milkers so that all the kids could go. My husband set out a "round bale" in the back so that they would have plenty to eat while we were gone. When we returned...all was well and I asked him to move what was left back over to the cows...but he didn't. The next day my daughter came to the house and said the the bale had fallen and there was "someone" under it...I knew what she meant. And sure enough, there was. Her head was turned back and it, obviously, broke her neck as it came over. I was FURIOUS...:flame:

Needless to say, my husband would NEVER suggest that again AND we buy all our hay in squares now BIG or small.

Round bales KILL goats. That said...I have been to 2 boer goat farms in the last month...both had round bales sitting out (without a ring) for their goats.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

We are using round bales, but we have it in the hay thingy so that it doesn't fall or hurt anyone.


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## heavyrebel (Oct 6, 2010)

Wow, we are fighting this right now...like tonight. 

This is the second time in the week that our two Alpines have gotten bloat. This time I KNOW it is the alfalfa. Last time we thought it might have been a change in food or the wet paddock grass that morning. 

So, we have used massage, backing soda and oil and more massage every hour or so. Both girls are much better, but I will worry until tomorrow.

So, for all of you who so quickly say ..oh, another wives tale...", make sure you are correct and are knowledgeable. Seems this time, it can be true...We too have fed our goats alfalfa flakes in the past and with no problems.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Properly cured alfalfa and alfalfa pellets, don't cause bloat. Saying that goats should _never_ be given alfalfa because it will make them bloat, is erroneous information and a wives tale. *Improperly cured* alfalfa, will make them bloat.


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## heavyrebel (Oct 6, 2010)

That is a big difference from implying that anyone who says alfalfa causes bloat is an idiot. In fact, your own words "There are so many tales and so many long time breeders who have done no research and keep perpetuating the misinformation that so often leads to death of goats for people new to them" could have very easily lead to the death of goats, since you imply that NO alfalfa could possibly hurt a goat. 

Thanks for clarification for us rubes...


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

heavyrebel said:


> That is a big difference from implying that anyone who says alfalfa causes bloat is an idiot. In fact, your own words "There are so many tales and so many long time breeders who have done no research and keep perpetuating the misinformation that so often leads to death of goats for people new to them" could have very easily lead to the death of goats, since you imply that NO alfalfa could possibly hurt a goat.
> 
> Thanks for clarification for us rubes...


Rebel, I am sure that Oat Bucket was not classifying you as a rube. 

She was pointing out that PROPERLY CURED alfalfa does not cause problems.

I came on here to suggest to you that, if you were feeding baled hay, you might want to check it thoroughly. 

It is not the alfalfa causing the goats harm. It is what is in the alfalfa. That is not putting too fine a point on it. 

Folks here are not the sort looking to call names. We try to give people the benefit of the doubt, and put the best construction on everything.

Sorry you're having trouble with your goats, and hope that you can get to the bottom of what's going on with them. Are they better today?


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Rebel, I definitely did not mean you are rube. The post you quoted was in reference to this in the original post, " she then told me "oh?no...you know you feed to much alfalfa and they will have bloat and die."

Many, many dairy goats (mine included), have free access to either alfalfa hay or pellets or both. It's not the amount you feed or the alfalfa itself (provided its been introduced properly), that is causing the problem. Like Pony said, it's what is in the alfalfa if it isn't cured properly or they are suddenly let out on fresh when they aren't used to it. 

I hope your goats are feeling better. If you have trouble finding good alfalfa hay (something a lot of us are having trouble with right now), try the pellets.


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

I grow alfalfa, and have goats. My goats have gotten into the alfalfa fields many times over the years, and never had a bloat. They have done it at all phases of its growth, both bucks and does. Never an issue. i think bloat is more about sudden or drastic change in diet, not about one particular ingredient. Correct me if I am wrong. We did over the years have one goat die of bloat, but she got into the chicken feed, not the alfalfa. My son knew she had done it, but thought he would get in trouble for leaving the door open, and didn't tell me until it was too late.


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## PossumRidgeFarm (Feb 12, 2012)

My expierence is that it can be regional experiences. Here in the south people swear by bermuda annd thet alfalfa will cause any animals to bloat and die. Up north they say bermuda doesn't have any nutrition. It seems to be what in the normal supply. We purchased some mixed hay that the goats loved then got some "good " bermuda that the goats also loved ....for a few days then off feed for most. we went back to mostly the mixed and everyone is fine. Feed what works best for you.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

JBarGFarmKeeper said:


> This is the part that caught my attention....
> 
> I would NEVER set a round bale out for my goats...EVER.
> 
> ...


I feed with round bales out in the pasture. How do you mean they 'fall' on goats? Do you mean they collapse or they literally tip over? 

I've never seen a situation where the bale might collapse on them and kill them. The way they eat it makes it seem like this isn't a possibility. Maybe if they were all eating on one particular spot, but ours is wrapped in a cattle panel and not condusive to collapse in any particular direction because it's eaten from 360* and further supported from collapse in a dangerous manner from being wrapped in a cattle panel. 

If there isn't too much snow, we roll the bale out to the garden and move the pallet each time. We tip the bale so it sits on it's flat end on the pallet. We unwrap it most of the way till there's just one wrap of netting on it. We then surround it with a cattle panel and then unwrap it the rest of the way. The only 'dangerous' time is when we're tipping it onto it's flat end, and you have to keep the goats out of the way during that part. 

If they are fed, bales should be fed on their FLAT side. This way, the layers collapse slowly as they're penetrated. One layer falling off onto a goat isn't going to kill it or even slow it down. However, if they eat halfway through a bale while it sits on it's round side, it could easily collapse on a goat at once and kill it.


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

lazysheep said:


> As hay growers and goat and cattle producers, we can say with certainty that alfalfa will indeed cause bloat in goats and cows and sheep. The key is in storing the hay until the enzyme action is done with the curing process. This can take up to 90 days with some alfalfa. If you turn your cows or sheep or goats out on less than very mature alfalfa, or feed freshly cut or freshly baled hay, they will bloat. It has happened to us with the goats. We never feed fresh cut alfalfa to the sheep, nor do we graze the cows on the alfalfa pastures without first filling them with grass hay. This is not a myth or old wives tale. Check with your local extension agent and they can confirm this.


what he said

Also I think if you get a half starved goat it's not good to put it on unlimited alf right away.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I know people who graze their herd of alpine dairy goats on fresh alfalfa. I think the MAIN issue here is transition. Goats that are used to it will likely not have a problem. Yes, alfalfa can cause bloat for many reasons - ALL food sources can cause bloat for many reasons. If you switch hay buyers, or cuttings, or even just between bales (different areas of hay field can be VERY different) you can see problems. And yes, spoiled hay or uncured hay can also cause further issues. The trick is knowing what a balenced diet is and feeding what works, and understanding how a rumen does it's thing. Frothy bloat can also occur if you take goats on dry lot or spent pasture and dump them out on fresh pasture of any sort. This is one case where it's USER ERROR, not the foodstuff. Most foodstuffs can be useful depending on quantity and be problematic with sudden changes or too much... Heck, even water has an LD50. 

I remember learning in my nutrition class about feed addetives used for legume diets in cows that reduces/eliminates frothy bloat... can't remember what it was, though.


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## littlequail (Aug 5, 2011)

thank you for all the Info, i have not had any problems with Bloat yet, needless to say this issue here, was i was told "Alfalfa can kill a goat." not that it should or should be aged, or it being Damp from due, or grown improperly..ect. but that Alfalfa alone is dangerous. 

this is Clearly not true. i may not have had goats for very long, and am always learning, but i have kept them on Alfalfa since November and not only do they Love it, but they look to be in Great heath. i was just making sure i wasn't doing something wrong. She seemed to be a very nice girl, but then the more i asked Questions..and then saw her goats....it didn't seem correct...now i know i must be doing something right!.... her goats had been malnourished,weak, and sick. one had even been so sick she had told me it was going to die soon. and it Looked down right Awful. skin and bones, and its poor face was Super swollen like a balloon...when i asked about it. she told me it was Worms...i soon left. and washed, making sure my goats couldn't get anything. i will not be going back for fear i could give something to my goats.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

Out here in Utah, people's goats and sheep run 24/7 in the alfalfa fields with no problems at all. I think the key is slowly introducing them to the fresh alfalfa. Nobody just tosses the animals out into the field. They are either in the field when it starts to sprout, so they slowly introduce it to THEMSELVES, or they are fed some a little at a time until they're on it full time, and then let loose into the field with the others. 

If you take a goat that is on dry alfalfa and throw it out into an alfalfa field, then yes, you will have issues. But that's the only time I know of when goats have issues with alfalfa. I would say in that case, alfalfa doesn't cause the deaths - owners who don't know what they're doing cause the deaths.


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

Alfalfa, particularly fresh alfalfa has a lot of easily digestible protein. The rumen bacteria process this protein very quickly producing gas. This is what causes bloat. Goats given a choice will eat a variety of different things, and unless they are gorging on something are not likely to eat enough for it to cause bloat. Cows are much more prone to bloat on alfalfa/clover because they tend to be less particular. 

Condensed tannins found in various plants can bind protein and help prevent bloat.


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## mrs whodunit (Feb 3, 2012)

mygoat said:


> I remember learning in my nutrition class about feed addetives used for legume diets in cows that reduces/eliminates frothy bloat... can't remember what it was, though.


Tide powdered. As in the stuff you wash clothes with.


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