# Black Unemployment Rate



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

If, according to BLS, the unemployment rate for blacks is running roughly double (~14%) the national average (~7.7%), why isn't there a greater outcry among blacks, especially w/ a black President in office?

Just curious.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Black unemployment has always been proportionally higher than other groups.

http://www.deptofnumbers.com/unemployment/demographics/


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

If a person is limitied by their education they can't expect to have a job. Even with the laws demanding they be hired ahead of others, if they cannot fill out a job application they usually will not be hired.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Same goes for crime stats...


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

Education isn't all of it. Urban blacks often live in a generational social environment of defeatism, where any spark of ambition or intelligence or greatness is stomped out, post-haste. Many urban kids have never seen anyone they know to have a job, for example. Is hard to teach the value of work when nobody works.

Saw this a lot also when I lived in Northern WI with the American Indian population (this was pre-res-casinos). Nobody works, so kids aren't raised to value work, and any ambition or intelligence (beyond wilyness or being able to drive a hard bargain) is routinely stomped out as being "uppity." 

You see this a lot too in critically poor white areas also - area of Appalachia, deep-country Maine, etc.

Anywhere populations are critically poor and isolated (or self-segregated/xenophobic) this happens. There are just enough varied populations in the "white" demographic that it doesn't spark interest like the black demographic does.

Unemployment is VERY high, historically high in the entire 16-25 age group. That is because older adults are competing for typical kid wage jobs. Any company would prefer to bet on a 40 year old who needs to feed his/her family working for them than a teenager/young adult who may at any time decide they don't want to work that day. (Some of that is a stereotype, not all adults are responsible, and there are lots of responsible teens).

Also hurting youth unemployment are the state labor laws. For example, my son is a HS senior (17). He could not get any job at 16 years old, because in IL, 16 year olds cannot work past 8pm. They can go play in sports events and band events and choir events that last well into the wee hours, but not work. I know these laws are designed to protect youth labor, but what it effectively does is make it impossible for them to get a job before they turn 17. I was shocked when my kid turned 16 and wanted a job, because I started working on a work permit at 14 and routinely closed the store (DQ and McDs) at that age. 10-11pm. And I still got my homework done and pulled good grades. How the world has changed..


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

One would think that the stimulus funds, that were claimed to be needed for minority jobs, would have made _some_ sort of impact. Add to that the clauses in the healthcare bill that required minorities be given hiring preference, and it seems odd......after 4 years.......that the numbers aren't getting any better.

And then there's the deafening silence from the black community.


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

Well he's black, so they believe he's 'their' guy. Anything negative about him is just hate and racism.


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## bridget (May 10, 2002)

That statement's a bit racist don't ya think?


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> And then there's the deafening silence from the black community.


Just curious; how many friends do you have within the "black community"? How many black commentators do you routinely listen to? Is it possible you're not hearing the message because you're not listening?

I googled the first two commentators who came to mind and found they have indeed spoken out about the issue at length. For instance: 
http://theboxhouston.com/8433151/ta...nt-obama-to-address-black-unemployment-video/


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I agree with willow girl.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Txsteader said:


> One would think that the stimulus funds, that were claimed to be needed for minority jobs, would have made _some_ sort of impact. Add to that the clauses in the healthcare bill that required minorities be given hiring preference, and it seems odd......after 4 years.......that the numbers aren't getting any better.
> 
> And then there's the deafening silence from the black community.


They have to want a job first.
Why work when they can get everything they need without working.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Txsteader said:


> One would think that the stimulus funds, that were claimed to be needed for minority jobs, would have made _some_ sort of impact. Add to that the clauses in the healthcare bill that required minorities be given hiring preference, and it seems odd......after 4 years.......that the numbers aren't getting any better.
> 
> And then there's the deafening silence from the black community.


Care to link to the clause that outlines hiring preferences. I can find info that grants for training programs will give preference to those that show a commitment to serving minorities and other under served populations but nothing about hiring preferences.


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

willow_girl said:


> Just curious; how many friends do you have within the "black community"? How many black commentators do you routinely listen to? Is it possible you're not hearing the message because you're not listening?
> 
> I googled the first two commentators who came to mind and found they have indeed spoken out about the issue at length. For instance:
> http://theboxhouston.com/8433151/ta...nt-obama-to-address-black-unemployment-video/


You beat me to it!

I was going to say good lord don't you know who Cornel West is!

Also plenty of black republicans bashing Obama but they hate the poor nearly as much as Obama so maybe that's not comparable.


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

The reason for black unemployment is similar to rural unemployment.

Lower educational levels, transportation problems.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Hollowdweller said:


> The reason for black unemployment is similar to rural unemployment.
> 
> Lower educational levels, transportation problems.


No- the word is excuses, not reasons. This is a country of free education. Many people have come here from other countries, having little education themselves, and have had a good life and raised children to have a superior life. 

Belittling successful people while glorifing unsuccessful people as victims insures that success will continue to elude them.

This was a thread about black people, who have had institutional barriers to success for centuries that has left a residue that is difficcult to shed. It is now being overcome gradually but that is not the excuse for others to latch onto.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> Care to link to the clause that outlines hiring preferences. I can find info that grants for training programs will give preference to those that show a commitment to serving minorities and other under served populations but nothing about hiring preferences.


You're right, 'hiring' wasn't the proper term. I haven't looked at the bill since '09 but the term 'contracts' was stuck in my memory. 

Still, that's bound to translate to an advantage in terms of jobs at some point. I'm simply surprised that there's been such little improvement in the black unemployment rate.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

I'm referring to the _people_ more so than commentators and talking heads.

I did manage to find this story, which BTW is about a media blackout:

http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/1...ck-chicago-protesters-marching-against-obama/



> The protest, which took place Thursday evening, addressed these community members&#8217; growing desperation as their wartorn neighborhoods are redeveloped by political cronies, evicting residents and shutting out local investors, and use union labor from outside the community to do the work. It&#8217;s a corrupt cycle of government &#8220;work&#8221; that takes advantage of the poor, evicting them, and then redeveloping the properties to benefit anyone but the community.
> 
> 
> In the video below, community members who say they are desperate for jobs and investment, focus their protest against liberal leadership, including Obama and Emanuel, so-called community organizations like ACORN, and unions:


I wonder how many voted for Obama and Emanuel. It would be a great thing if these folks could finally understand that liberals don't necessarily have their best interest at heart.......regardless of what they say.


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

where I want to said:


> No- the word is excuses, not reasons. This is a country of free education. Many people have come here from other countries, having little education themselves, and have had a good life and raised children to have a superior life.
> 
> Belittling successful people while glorifing unsuccessful people as victims insures that success will continue to elude them.
> 
> This was a thread about black people, who have had institutional barriers to success for centuries that has left a residue that is difficcult to shed. It is now being overcome gradually but that is not the excuse for others to latch onto.


Read what I wrote again I think you are projecting your prejudice onto what I said.

I said that black and rural people had lower eductional levels.

I live around all ********. They make fun of higher education and have their own style and guns just like the urban hip hop gang culture.

I don't know of a single kid on my road that has a college education and only 1 person on my road besides my wife and I do.

Their parents are poor, worked labor type jobs, and suffer from low expectations and examples.

In my state schools are funded by property taxes, so in the poor areas the schools are not so good and in the rich areas they are near like college. But it doesn't matter because most of the poor white ******* families do not place a value on education.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

pancho said:


> If a person is limitied by their education they can't expect to have a job. Even with the laws demanding they be hired ahead of others, if they cannot fill out a job application they usually will not be hired.


Is it really that simple, to consider blacks _too dumb_, to get a job?



> More than 60 percent of blacks live in cities. The typical black city resident lives in a neighborhood that is 75.5 percent minority, in which three out of five residents are black, the analysis showed.


Not a lot of available, jobs in the inner cities, any more.

http://www.racematters.org/censussegregationdiversit.htm


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

willow_girl said:


> Just curious; how many friends do you have within the "black community"? How many black commentators do you routinely listen to? Is it possible you're not hearing the message because you're not listening?
> 
> I googled the first two commentators who came to mind and found they have indeed spoken out about the issue at length. For instance:
> http://theboxhouston.com/8433151/ta...nt-obama-to-address-black-unemployment-video/


Every commentator, black, white or whatever could be commenting all day and everyday. What would that change?

I question why Black Americans as a whole do not enjoy greater success?

For as long as I can remember I have noted the representation of Blacks in my vocational midst. My vocation has always been open to most everyone, it just takes some level of dedication and most often something more than high school, not always, but more so now.

In a room of 100 people I will see maybe 3 or four black men. Maybe twice that many black women. Usually...

In that same room I will see it being almost half and half between men and women. Maybe a few more men, but not many more

Most in the room are white. That said, a healthy percentage will be Indian and Chinese, way out numbering blacks.

In a room of executives I see mostly white men. There will be one or two women in a room of 10. Sometimes more, but more often not. When the room has women, it is not too unusual to see a black woman. Black women are almost as well represented as white women, almost. I almost never see a black man. When I do see a black man he is almost never from America, sometimes he may be from Africa, or England, mostly Africa.

So I will ask again, *why are blacks suffering lower employment levels, not just in my vocation, but in all situations???*


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

HDRider said:


> So I will ask again, *why are blacks suffering lower employment levels, not just in my vocation, but in all situations???*


My guess would be a culture of government dependency. We have a well crafted system designed to support and create a permanently dependent class. People of all races and cultures fall victim to it as well.


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## bjba (Feb 18, 2003)

Hollowdweller said:


> Read what I wrote again I think you are projecting your prejudice onto what I said.
> 
> I said that black and rural people had lower eductional levels.
> 
> ...


I am offended by your frequent and liberal use of the term *******. As defined by Websters New World College dictionary *******:


> noun
> Slang a poor, white, rural Southerner, often, specif., one regarded as ignorant, bigoted, violent, etc.: often a derogatory term
> Origin: from the characteristic sunburned neck acquired in the fields by farm laborers
> 
> ...


I suspect you would view my whole family as ********. My dad spent 37 years dodging bullets and being stuck in some hellhole or another so people like you could look down on him. I did my time from the jungle to the desert so you could disparage me and my children. 
Your oh so precious inclusiveness excludes me and my family. ******* is a stereotypical disparagement of group of people and I find it insulting. You sir/madam have lost any credibility or admiration I might have had for you.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

All my life, I have been witness to Affirmative Action policies that place Blacks ahead of me, regardless of test scores or interview reports. That&#8217;s the way it is. It is an attempt to right the wrong of 100 years of oppression. In my experiences, it hasn&#8217;t worked out so good. At first many Blacks were hired into entry level jobs, it was easy to sort out those that couldn&#8217;t make it to work every day or had drug troubles. But as this place pushed to have more Blacks in supervisor positions, Blacks with little experience were carried into the interview process, well ahead of their experience. Other staff, with more experience and better supervisory skills were brushed away. 
Over all, I think we know that Blacks haven&#8217;t had the same opportunities as Whites. But when you miss a promotion, to someone that obviously has less ability, it starts to feel unfair. I was told that that person meets the minimum requirements for that position. Then when that relatively new employee becomes your boss, how willing would you be to help him do his job? 
Not to worry, this new Black supervisor will soon be promoted to the next level, before they have learned the basics of their last promotion.
So you have made disgruntled employees out of your best, experienced staff and you have promoted a Black person to the point no one could be successful. 
I was in an audience of many people that listened to a Parole Board Officer explain his duties. One thing that influenced when an inmate might be paroled was what they had done to get a better education.
He took questions after his talk. A Black lady asked if it was fair to require education to be a requirement for Blacks the same as Whites, since Blacks do not value education the same way as Whites. Sort of ramming White values onto the uninterested Black Community. He said that it was fair. Since that experience, I have seen it play out. 75% drop out rates proves it. 
I worked with thousands of Black inmates. Nearly all were from single parent homes, in inner city environments.
When asked why they were in prison, most would answer, &#8220; I got caught stealing a car, I got caught robbing a store, I got caught in a drive by shooting.&#8221; It took me a while before I heard what they were saying. They were in prison because of what the police did, not that their criminal activities did it. If they hadn&#8217;t been caught, life would still be smooth.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

haypoint said:


> A Black lady asked if it was fair to require education to be a requirement for Blacks the same as Whites, since *Blacks do not value education the same way as Whites*. Sort of ramming White values onto the uninterested Black Community.


Now there's an interesting topic. 

I've heard similar comments made recently, about black vs white culture and how many blacks reject anything considered as white culture. 

This is puzzling to me, so I'd like to ask any of our black members: is it true that, culturally, blacks do not value education? Is this possibly the root of the problem for why blacks do so poorly.....they simply don't see any value in education? Or is it simply a hatred for anything they see a 'white culture'?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

bjba said:


> I am offended by your frequent and liberal use of the term *******. As defined by Websters New World College dictionary *******:
> 
> I suspect you would view my whole family as ********. My dad spent 37 years dodging bullets and being stuck in some hellhole or another so people like you could look down on him. I did my time from the jungle to the desert so you could disparage me and my children.
> Your oh so precious inclusiveness excludes me and my family. ******* is a stereotypical disparagement of group of people and I find it insulting. You sir/madam have lost any credibility or admiration I might have had for you.


First, thank you for your service, and my thanks and appreciation for the service of your Father. You fill me with pride.

Some do use the term in a derogatory manner, most now seem to use it to project some misplaced pride onto themselves for being "country". I try not to be offended. Now ******* is more an antonym to sophisticated.

Stand tall.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

IMO its their culture. In their culture trying to get an education and advance yourself from your own hard work is called "trying to be white". This keeps them uneducated and ignorant which means they will never be able to succeed.

Then you have the fact are taught they are not equal a white. They are told over and over and over again w/o a "helping hand" they can't do this or that. They reason they didn't pass the promotion/entry test isn't because they didn't study hard enough or HEAVEN FORBID they are not actually qualified. The reason is because the test is _racist!!_ 

Add to that the fact the dems have spent billions of dollars to rip the black family structure apart and replace mom and dad with government support which keeps them step'n and fetch'n for the government money. This means they will be step'n and fetch'n to the polls to vote for the dems to get the money. Ever wonder why the dems are supported by blacks when the VAST majority of truly racist government officials were dems?


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

Hey, I say you are free to value, or not value whatever you want. So, as an employer I may value an education. When hiring someone to perform a job that requires basic math skills, I will hire someone with those qualifications. You don't value that? More power to you, hope it works out.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Txsteader said:


> Now there's an interesting topic.
> 
> I've heard similar comments made recently, about black vs white culture and how many blacks reject anything considered as white culture.
> 
> This is puzzling to me, so I'd like to ask any of our black members: is it true that, culturally, blacks do not value education? Is this possibly the root of the problem for why blacks do so poorly.....they simply don't see any value in education? Or is it simply a hatred for anything they see a 'white culture'?


A little background on me. I grew up in an area which was about 50-50 white-black in a time when a black MAN would step aside for a white child out of fear not the goodness of his heart. My dad was one step away from having a funny hat made from a white sheet in his closet. Yet for all of my life I have lived King's dream and didn't judge a man by his skin color (made for some rowdie dinner table talks in my house). 

When I was a young man, yeah I can remember that long ago, I had many very close friends who were black. Because of that I was accepted by most others in the black community. Been many of times I was in places where I felt like the only white stripe on a Zebra . I can tell you blacks do NOT put the same value on education as whites (from college and forward I can tell you whites do not put the same value on it as Asians!). 

The majority of the older ones rebelled against anything white in the 60s and 70s. If you are old enough you remember 'soul food' and 'throwing off the white man's name'. This included, to their harm, "white man's" education. The children of these older rebels heard their stories of real racism and have been fed a steady diet of "American is racist" by people who want nothing more than to use the blacks to get and keep power. The kids have been told over and over by their 'leaders' that they are not as good as a white and/or they can never reach the same level as whites because of racism. To them anything which conforms to the "American culture" is racist. This includes education. If you get a good education and try to get a good job you are just trying to be like the racist white America. Dropping out and talking "black" goes to show you are a good black not some want-a-be white.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

When I was getting my master's degree in counseling, we read the Culture of Poverty (Framework for Understanding Poverty) by Ruby Payne. It was very eye-opening. 

I know lots of people were insulted by what the book has to say, but it helped me immensely when I was working with lower class populations. 



> Payne's principal message is that poverty is not simply a monetary condition. She describes it to her audiences as a culture with particular rules, values, and knowledge transmitted from one generation to the next that inform people how to live their lives successfully â how to build and keep relationships, how to get one's needs met, how to entertain and be entertained, and more. Payne asserts that children growing up in a culture of poverty do not succeed because they have been taught the "hidden rules of poverty," but not the hidden rules of being middle class.
> 
> 
> Likewise, Payne claims, public school teachers/others who work with the poor who are predominately from the middle class do not understand or relate to their students from poverty because they don't appreciate the hidden and essential rules for survival in poverty. Payne sees her mission as opening channels of communication, making explicit the hidden rules of class at all levels, and encouraging teachers and others who work with the poor to teach children of poverty the rules of middle class.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Hollowdweller said:


> Read what I wrote again I think you are projecting your prejudice onto what I said.
> 
> .


And just what prejudice are you perceiving in my remarks?


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## bjba (Feb 18, 2003)

I read threads like this and am just befuddled by the discussion of "culture", "class", education and the lack thereof and the judgement inherent in the high sounding words of academe. I thought we had spent the last 60 years becoming more tolerant and less judgmental. The conversation in this thread is really reminiscent of the conversations from the 50s about "allowing" some people civil rights. Everyone has the absolute right to choose what they will do in life. We as a society enable people to live in poverty and then condemn them for choosing to do so. We as a society encourage people to live in poverty and them condemn them for doing so. We make excuses for those who choose to live as we enable and encourage them to and decry that those excuses are taken to heart and used as justification for the choices made.
There is an old song that lays out the truth for all to see.



> When I was in school I ran with kid down the street
> But I watched him burn himself up on bourbon and speed
> But I was smarter than most and I could choose
> Learned to talk like the man on the six o'clock news
> ...


Don Williams "Good Ole Boys like me"


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## WV Farm girl (Nov 26, 2011)

I'm an HR Director for a skilled nursing center. I hire not only nurses but cooks, housekeeping, laundry, nurse aides, etc. I have very few blacks that apply. The few that do I often hire. Honestly, other than 1 aide who is amongst the hardest workers I have, their work ethic is horrible. I have a lot of absenteeism amongst low income and educated workers, but sadly the black workers are worst. Attitude? Oh my, don't even get me started. I had 1 young black girl start mouthing off to a nurse when the nurse asked her to perform a job duty. 
America's work ethic has greatly decreased. The lower income ppl use to work but anymore the more government "benefits" they can get the less they will work. Anytime I have to fill out a paper for welfare for a new hire I can pretty well figure they will work less than 90 days before quitting.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

bluemoonluck said:


> When I was getting my master's degree in counseling, we read the Culture of Poverty (Framework for Understanding Poverty) by Ruby Payne. It was very eye-opening.
> 
> I know lots of people were insulted by what the book has to say, but it helped me immensely when I was working with lower class populations.


In the prison system, I saw examples of this different culture. If one guy was down to his last two smokes, if asked he'd give up one to someone that had none, generall he would. Seems sort of the Christian way to be. But it wasn't about religion. That is the way a poor society survives. You get a good job, when that first pay check arrives, the neighborhood is happy. 
When I was growing up I sought out employment. If it looked like a lay off was coming, I was job hunting again. Being without a job was scary to me. But my talks with thousands of Black prisoners, there generally isn't that fear. "If I got laid off, Id just ride out the unemployment checks, then go on welfare." was a common theme. 
To commit a crime and go to prison was awful in my mostly white community. For a young Black man is is viewed about the same as joining the Army.

I don't think the whites in this country have a right to force our mostly Europian society rules on a people that embrace their African culture.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

bjba said:


> I read threads like this and am just befuddled by the discussion of "culture", "class", education and the lack thereof and the judgement inherent in the high sounding words of academe. I thought we had spent the last 60 years becoming more tolerant and less judgmental. The conversation in this thread is really reminiscent of the conversations from the 50s about "allowing" some people civil rights. Everyone has the absolute right to choose what they will do in life. We as a society enable people to live in poverty and then condemn them for choosing to do so. We as a society encourage people to live in poverty and them condemn them for doing so. We make excuses for those who choose to live as we enable and encourage them to and decry that those excuses are taken to heart and used as justification for the choices made.
> There is an old song that lays out the truth for all to see.
> 
> Don Williams "Good Ole Boys like me"


 I'm confused. Do people have the absolute right to choose what they do in life or are we some how the cause of their failure when we insure care to those most in need? 

We provide a safety net and they use it as a hammock, and it is our fault. 

Our attempts at undoing unfair hiring practices with Afirmative Action, has gone on for thirty years, with little success. Are you saying we should knock them out of the welfare addiction so they will have the motivation we expect them to have?

Rent the DVD "Boys in the Hood" and learn where the problem really is. Hint: it ain't in the 'berbs.


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## bjba (Feb 18, 2003)

When a safety net becomes a hammock it is no longer a safety net and the society is enabling poverty. Affirmative action is nothing more or less than unfair hiring practice. It is not possible to cure one evil by practicing another. As you said Affirmative Action has had little success, Einsteins axiom, " doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is the definition of insanity" applies. I have lived in the "hood" why would I rent a movie when I have lived it?
I have lived in places where the people are truly poor and would view the poverty in the US as unimaginable wealth. Something the poor people I have known around the world have had in common is self reliance and a profound aversion to sloth.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

haypoint said:


> To commit a crime and go to prison was awful in my mostly white community. For a young Black man is is viewed about the same as joining the Army.


I worked with a number of teenagers throughout my career who actually looked forward to their future incarceration  To them, having 3 hot meals a day, a roof over their heads, free cable tv, free internet, and no pressure to work a job was their "ideal life".

I could talk till I was blue in the face about prison violence/etc, but they always had brothers/cousins/uncles who told them how great of a deal prison was. And who were they going to listen to - me, or a handful of their close relations? :awh:

And the middle-class statisticians scratch their heads because they can't figure out why so many young black males are incarcerated.


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## solidwoods (Dec 23, 2005)

Will people ever accept the fact that the president is half black and half white?
jim


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## bridget (May 10, 2002)

That's one thing I have never figured out. Why isn't our prez referrred to as half white?

It is so strange.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

bridget said:


> That's one thing I have never figured out. Why isn't our prez referrred to as half white?
> 
> It is so strange.


and people think of Tiger Woods as Black?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

bjba said:


> When a safety net becomes a hammock it is no longer a safety net and the society is enabling poverty. Affirmative action is nothing more or less than unfair hiring practice. It is not possible to cure one evil by practicing another. As you said Affirmative Action has had little success, Einsteins axiom, " doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is the definition of insanity" applies. I have lived in the "hood" why would I rent a movie when I have lived it?
> I have lived in places where the people are truly poor and would view the poverty in the US as unimaginable wealth. Something the poor people I have known around the world have had in common is self reliance and a profound aversion to sloth.


So you agree that the solution is to make the safety net to small to provide a lifestyle?
Few people understand that most of the crime committed by intercity Black youth ( by far the greatest percentile) is inflicted against other intercity Black youth and their bystanders.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

bridget said:


> That's one thing I have never figured out. Why isn't our prez referrred to as half white?
> 
> It is so strange.


He chose to declare himself as black rather than bi-racial.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

A year and a half ago, an unidentified, skinny pit bull was picked up by an intercity Animal Control Officer. Turns out the dog, Ace, belonged to someone that was fighting over some other property settlement. The Judge agreed that the city would hold the dog until it was settled. The Judge&#8217;s order didn&#8217;t get sent to the pound. In four days the dog was put to sleep. It was a big deal.
A few weeks later, two young women, set to testify in a spouse abuse case, were in their front yard when a car pulled up, two men jumped out, and both women were stuffed into the trunk. Their bodies were found a month later in a shallow grave, gunshot wounds to the head. It wasn&#8217;t such a big deal.
For the next 6 months, I asked many people if they knew who &#8220;Ace&#8221; was. Nearly everyone responded, &#8220;Sure, he&#8217;s that pit bull the police killed.&#8221; But when I asked about the two young women, no one could remember a name, first, last anything. Most had a vague memory of the event. I doubt any news media outside of Detroit even bothered to report on it. 
After 500,000 people have fled Detroit since the rescession, attempt have been made to revitalize areas. But the current population wants no outside involvement. They want the dollars, but not any strings. Detroit had a beautiful island, Boblo. Nice place to swim, hike and picnic. Fallen into ruin. Zoo closes, light poles stripped of wires. The State offered to rend the property, invest millions in repairs and you&#8217;d either pay a $5 a day use fee or get a $15 annual sticker. They were unable to reach a deal because they had always had the free use of it and this deal might be enjoyed by outsiders. So it sits in ruins. One intercity school system has shrunk to under a thousand students, funded by property taxes and State income taxes. They have a $14 million dollar budget and are currently $11 million in the red. They are demanding more State funds, but reject the thought of a Governor appointed emergency manager to bring their costs back into line.
I like the bumper sticker, " Come Back to Detroit. We Weren't Shooting at You."


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Txsteader said:


> Now there's an interesting topic.
> 
> I've heard similar comments made recently, about black vs white culture and how many blacks reject anything considered as white culture.
> 
> This is puzzling to me, so I'd like to ask any of our black members: is it true that, culturally, blacks do not value education? Is this possibly the root of the problem for why blacks do so poorly.....they simply don't see any value in education? Or is it simply a hatred for anything they see a 'white culture'?


Culturally, black people DO value education. However, there are many issues that can result in a lack of success in education. One big one that I see is a lack of first hand knowledge about the education process.

If no one in your family has ever gotten a good education, then it is difficult to aspire to one. If you do aspire to attain a college education, there are certain paths that must be followed and kids have to be put on that path. Black students are often not told what is required to get into college. We all tell our children to get good grades, but many parents don't understand the SAT process (as one example) and don't know that resources are available to assist with studying for the exam. Many inner-city schools don't offer SAT classes to their students due to budget issues. They also don't do a very good job of noticing the students that show potential.

Once a poor black student gets accepted to college, they often don't have the resources to get the things that they need and often drop out because they feel that they are inadequate. Locally, we have a nonprofit that helps to arrange for rides to and from college campuses for students that come from financially challenged homes. They also help to find the basic things that kids need to furnish a college dorm. This program has been incredibly successful because no one ever really studied the issue before.

Another issue is that life in the inner-city black community can often be fragile. There are a lot of single parent families and it only takes one event to throw a monkey wrench into things and cause a student to feel the need to drop out of high school or college. Those events can be financial, emotional, or physical.

While lots of young black women attend college nowadays, young black men are the ones that are not as likely to attend. Though our community tells boys to do well in school, society tells them that the path to success is through athletics, not academics. A high school boy is heavily encouraged to excel in sports and there are those that will facilitate them out the door without every giving them an education. 

Also, if you have been convicted of a felony, then you are not eligible for financial aid. While the solution to that issue would be to not commit a crime, there is also the issue of heavy-handed prosecution of black males versus that of their white peers that commit similar crimes. Black males are often charged with felonies while white teens that commit the same crime often receive a misdemeanor and or get their records expunged or sealed. If you come from a financially challenged home, going to college requires financial aid. once you've been charged with a felony, no amount of education will allow you to get a good job.

Are there some black people that don't value education? Of course...just as there are people of every ethnic group that don't value education. In the black community, I mostly see that attitude among those that got lost in the educational system. For kids that struggle in school, there is little hope for higher education and few resources to support them. If reading is difficult for you, then you are less likely to crack open a book and then the rest of the educational experience falls by the wayside. 

There are also some black people that seek to undermine the efforts of others, by demeaning them. Nothing new there either...Those folks exist in every culture. In 2013, most black families have someone within their extended family that finished college. 

For my mom, she finished college in 1980. When she finished high school, the local university didn't allow black students to live in the dorms, yet mandated that all freshman had to live in a dorm or at home with their parents. Coming from a large family, she knew that it would be difficult to live in her parents' home and study. She attended business school and received a certificate, not a degree. She never used the degree that she earned in 1980, but it was incredibly important that she acquire it. 

I live in a urban neighborhood where the majority of of the inhabitants are either black or Latino. While I don't know the educational status of everybody in the entire neighborhood, I do know that my block has at least 4 Master's degrees, 4 Bachelors degrees and 6 Associate's degrees spread out among 14 houses. I only know of 4 people that don't have at least a high school diploma in our block. Of course, we also live in an area with quite a few colleges and two universities.

Recently, our area has made education a priority by guaranteeing every city school district graduate a free college education. It is the way in which we are investing in the next generation.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Txsteader said:


> He chose to declare himself as black rather than bi-racial.


Society tends to define someone with darker skin as being black. Society has probably always treated Barack Obama as a black man, rather than a biracial one.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

haypoint said:


> and people think of Tiger Woods as Black?


 But Tiger Woods prefers the term multi-racial.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

haypoint said:


> Rent the DVD "Boys in the Hood" and learn where the problem really is. Hint: it ain't in the 'berbs.


Boyz n the Hood?!?! Really!?!? That movie was made in 1991 and was only marginally relevant to the black experience in South Central LA at that time. It was one of the few times that a black story was told by a black director. It really didn't have much relevance to the black experience in other communities.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

TheMartianChick said:


> Boyz n the Hood?!?! Really!?!? That movie was made in 1991 and was only marginally relevant to the black experience in South Central LA at that time. It was one of the few times that a black story was told by a black director. It really didn't have much relevance to the black experience in other communities.


I disagree. It mirrors what I saw and learned from thousands of young Black felons I delt with that lived in Detroit. There is no limit to the outragious, senceless violence and you better not try to escape it. Still going on in different ways.
Many people on this forum have no idea of the "Black Experience", I figured this would be an easy way to get a general idea.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

TheMartianChick said:


> Society tends to define someone with darker skin as being black. Society has probably always treated Barack Obama as a black man, rather than a biracial one.


Easier to get into Universities, too. Only way better would be to claim to be a Black International student, but we are getting off topic.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

TheMartianChick said:


> Culturally, black people DO value education. However, there are many issues that can result in a lack of success in education. One big one that I see is a lack of first hand knowledge about the education process.
> 
> If no one in your family has ever gotten a good education, then it is difficult to aspire to one. If you do aspire to attain a college education, there are certain paths that must be followed and kids have to be put on that path. Black students are often not told what is required to get into college. We all tell our children to get good grades, but many parents don't understand the SAT process (as one example) and don't know that resources are available to assist with studying for the exam. Many inner-city schools don't offer SAT classes to their students due to budget issues. They also don't do a very good job of noticing the students that show potential.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the insight.

I know that over the past 3-4 decades, we've spent a lot of money trying to help inner-city black kids get an education. If money isn't the issue, what do you see as the greatest obstacle? Is it lack of family support or corruption within the education system (I presume it must be one of the two)?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

TheMartianChick said:


> Culturally, black people DO value education. However, there are many issues that can result in a lack of success in education. One big one that I see is a lack of first hand knowledge about the education process.
> 
> If no one in your family has ever gotten a good education, then it is difficult to aspire to one. If you do aspire to attain a college education, there are certain paths that must be followed and kids have to be put on that path. Black students are often not told what is required to get into college. We all tell our children to get good grades, but many parents don't understand the SAT process (as one example) and don't know that resources are available to assist with studying for the exam. Many inner-city schools don't offer SAT classes to their students due to budget issues. They also don't do a very good job of noticing the students that show potential.
> 
> ...


Your first four paragraphs could be said for many poor and lower middlle class families across America in most Blue collar communities. Students from those communities get bused to Vocational Schools to learn auto mechanics and welding and carpentry. Students from richer communities get bused to Universities for College Prep classes. 

But I've tired from stepping back to give Blacks the opportunity someone I don't know took from someone else I don't know while being told that it has been so much easier for me, because they didn't have any help getting their education, they had no one to guide them to this job, they had no one inside to help them get hired, once hired they weren't given enough instruction and had to figure it out, alone.
It happens to everyone. In my small graduating class, I know of two women that were told by the School Guidance Councilor to forget college, learn to cook. One is a Dean at a University the other a Doctor. One girl didn't graduate with us. she was home nursing a new baby, alone. She holds a Masters Degree in Psycology. Lack of school support, lack of family guidance, bad situations, you rise above it or spend your life wallowing in it. It isn't a unique Black Experience.
Is it poverty that makes people commit crimes? No, there are lots of poor people and few felonies. Is it poverty that makes people abandon education? No, across the world, poor people strive to get as much education they can. Is Black joblessness high because the live in the intercity where there are no jobs? Maybe, sort of, no. Business refuses to locate in high crime areas. No investment, no jobs.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Txsteader said:


> Thanks for the insight.
> 
> I know that over the past 3-4 decades, we've spent a lot of money trying to help inner-city black kids get an education. If money isn't the issue, what do you see as the greatest obstacle? Is it lack of family support or corruption within the education system (I presume it must be one of the two)?


From what I've seen, both. In Detroit, Highland Park School System gets $14,000,000, and are $11,000,000 in the red. They have shrunk to about 800 students. The drop out rate is fierce. 
20 miles to the north, is Cranbrook. That's the exclusive, private school Mitt Romney attended. There tuition is about the same as what the taxpayer spends on Highland Park. Shameful difference in outcome. 

They are a people of a vastly different culture and values. They deserve an equal place in our society, but often resist our values standards. Some give up their culture and adapt to the White man's ways. But that's difficult, too.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

watcher said:


> 'throwing off the white man's name'


If you have a name like TyQuavion or XuQuanzaa, you're NOT going to get hired anywhere no matter how much education you have. You just won't. I got locked out of a message board for nurses for making a statement like that, even though the moderator told me via PM that she worked with this population and I was correct. A fellow pharmacist said that people who have names like this might as well hang a billboard around their necks that say, "I'm a lifelong welfare recipient and don't know who my biological father is."

Well, it's true. Middle-class blacks agree.

And like I said earlier, if Sandy Hook was an inner-city school and the kids all had names like that, it would have vanished from the news the instant this was discovered.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

bluemoonluck said:


> I worked with a number of teenagers throughout my career who actually looked forward to their future incarceration  To them, having 3 hot meals a day, a roof over their heads, free cable tv, free internet, and no pressure to work a job was their "ideal life".
> 
> I could talk till I was blue in the face about prison violence/etc, but they always had brothers/cousins/uncles who told them how great of a deal prison was. And who were they going to listen to - me, or a handful of their close relations? :awh:
> 
> And the middle-class statisticians scratch their heads because they can't figure out why so many young black males are incarcerated.


How horrible must their lives be if the constant threat of being raped, beaten, or worse is better than where they are now?

My SIL, who has two kids, has joked about how she'd like to go to jail because then she wouldn't have to do laundry. This is a person who wouldn't last 5 minutes in a place like that.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

haypoint said:


> So you agree that the solution is to make the safety net to small to provide a lifestyle?
> Few people understand that most of the crime committed by intercity Black youth ( by far the greatest percentile) is inflicted against other intercity Black youth and their bystanders.


And the whole "let the scum kill each other off" mentality is why nothing much is done about it. I've also heard that Salt Lake City has a big problem with Fijian and Samoan gangs (Mormonism is the most common religion on those islands) and nobody really cared until a (presumably) innocent Caucasian teenager died after being caught in the crossfire.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

TheMartianChick, where did your mother live that she couldn't live in a dorm in 1980? I couldn't even imagine that in 1970! 1960, maybe. That's absolutely horrible!

BTW, I graduated from high school in 1981. The black kids I grew up with include a dentist, a schoolteacher who left education to be a flight attendant, a reporter for the New York Times, an attorney, and other people who lead stable, middle-class lives.

ETA: The flight attendant's parents? Her dad was a physician and her mother, a schoolteacher. And they got their degrees in the 1950s.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

If being black means not accepting "white man's" culture, and your own is not producing good results, I guess that there is no answer except living isolated in poverty. 
No a very useful philosophy.


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## brewswain (Dec 31, 2006)

TheMartianChick said:


> Society tends to define someone with darker skin as being black. Society has probably always treated Barack Obama as a black man, rather than a biracial one.


Isnt it racist to call Obama 'black'?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

thesedays said:


> And the whole "let the scum kill each other off" mentality is why nothing much is done about it. I've also heard that Salt Lake City has a big problem with Fijian and Samoan gangs (Mormonism is the most common religion on those islands) and nobody really cared until a (presumably) innocent Caucasian teenager died after being caught in the crossfire.


 Nope, I don't believe that, not exactly. The people that live in those communities ignore the crime, refuse to help police, never snitch and it becomes accepted. Last year, someone in Detroit was killed every day. At some point it stops being news. They refuse outside help. 

Let's switch the table on your example. Few in Detroit care what happened in Sandy Hook, Doesn't involve them. But if a Black man shot up a classroom in Detroit, there would be only a minor reaction, a bunch of Grandma's crying, then it would be over. 
But if a White kid from Westland went to a Detriot school and shot students, the burning of buildings, looting of stores and smashing of cars would be going on from one end of Woodward to the other. Huge reaction, rage and anger. If you don't believe me, let me tell you about this guy named Zimmerman....


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

where I want to said:


> If being black means not accepting "white man's" culture, and your own is not producing good results, I guess that there is no answer except living isolated in poverty.
> No a very useful philosophy.


Look at all the sucessful cultures, over history, that have embrased that form of African Culture and measure their sucess through our standards. Not much. But by accepting shch a low standard (by our measure) others have provided for their needs. Who is the fool in this? Perhaps we are.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

thesedays said:


> How horrible must their lives be if the constant threat of being raped, beaten, or worse is better than where they are now?
> 
> My SIL, who has two kids, has joked about how she'd like to go to jail because then she wouldn't have to do laundry. This is a person who wouldn't last 5 minutes in a place like that.


Few people get raped or beaten up in Prisons. Violent felons get moved around like caged animals. Even so, you are likely to survive a beating or rape, not a drive-by shooting like they worrierd about back home. Besides, their cousins and classmates and neighbors are all there. Hanging out, doing time. Building my Reputation.


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## bjba (Feb 18, 2003)

:hijacked:There certainly has been a lot of discussion although not a lot about the unemployment rate among the black community. I will admit to getting sucked into the extraneous conversation as well. Why is the unemployment rate so high in the black community?
Prejudice, racism, choice, apathy, living on the dole, defeat? I wonder what is to blame.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> If you have a name like TyQuavion or XuQuanzaa, you're NOT going to get hired anywhere no matter how much education you have.


What a shame. After all, it's not like the kid named him/herself!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

willow_girl said:


> What a shame. After all, it's not like the kid name him/herself!


People change their names all the time. They could too! It is a shame that someone wouldn't hire someone because of their name. Ok, not just a shame, it's stupid! Use their initials then! Good grief!! :smack


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

I'm kind of just reading the back and forth between everyone here. Some of the stuff people are saying, probably not intentionally, comes across as highly pre-judging, and some of the themes paint some really broad strokes against the African Americans in the US. This is one topic I'm just going to watch from the sidelines.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Warwalk said:


> I'm kind of just reading the back and forth between everyone here. Some of the stuff people are saying, probably not intentionally, comes across as highly pre-judging, and some of the themes paint some really broad strokes against the African Americans in the US. This is one topic I'm just going to watch from the sidelines.


And there's part of the problem right there...

Just what is an African American? Are they from Africa? By calling someone an African American you single them out and make them different/special from all other "Americans" we don't call Chinese people who live in America Chinese Americans...and white people with German and English heritage like myself are not called German/English Americans. How many "African Americans" have ever been to Africa or even know where it is?

Calling them African American is like calling them welfare Americans or special Americans.

If you live in America you are an American. Stop calling them Africans. This goes for all the black community.

I think I'll start referring to myself as White North American so that people know my color right from the start...lets get my color out of the way before anything else.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

thesedays said:


> And the whole "let the scum kill each other off" mentality is why nothing much is done about it. I've also heard that Salt Lake City has a big problem with Fijian and Samoan gangs (Mormonism is the most common religion on those islands) and nobody really cared until a (presumably) innocent Caucasian teenager died after being caught in the crossfire.


I can't speak about all parts of the U.S. but where I live a black can kill another black and there be 20 witnesses and not a single one will even give a description of the killer even though it is their neighbor.
I can remember one robbery by 4 black men where they killed 2 other black men. A TV station was interviewing people who were witness to it.
No one knew the robbers. One woman got rather excited telling her story and said the name of one of the killers she saw running from the building.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Warwalk said:


> I'm kind of just reading the back and forth between everyone here. Some of the stuff people are saying, probably not intentionally, comes across as highly pre-judging, and some of the themes paint some really broad strokes against the African Americans in the US. This is one topic I'm just going to watch from the sidelines.


Are white folks born in Africa, called African Americans too?


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

JeffreyD said:


> Are white folks born in Africa, called African Americans too?


Several years ago, I heard about a school that decided to have an "African American Student of the Year" thing, and a recent emigre from Zimbabwe tossed his hat into the ring. He was blond, blue-eyed, and of European descent.

The contest was cancelled.

The blacks I know call THEMSELVES black, not African-American. I think it's yet another media-contrived term that's as meaningful as "soccer mom".

Here in the Midwest, if a white woman has a child and the father isn't in the picture, it's almost always with a black guy even if they live in an area with no other black people. I have a relative who used to teach 9th and 10th grade math in a small Iowa town with no black people, except for the babies that the girls in his learning-disabilities class popped with astonishing frequency. :shocked: ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of them were biracial, with black fathers. I also noticed this when I worked at a low-income health clinic in Waterloo, Iowa. I NEVER saw a white woman with a white child, unless they were Bosnian. Some white women on another board who had dated black men said that they would get dirty looks whenever they went out in public, and I refrained from saying, "Because you might as well hang a sign around your neck saying 'Future mother of fatherless biracial child.'"

Well, it's true.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

willow_girl said:


> What a shame. After all, it's not like the kid named him/herself!


And you don't get to pick your parents either.

So, what do y'all suggest is the solution for the black underclass? Genocide? Involuntary sterilization? Anything else? BTW, I have always believed that the delay in getting aid to New Orleans after Katrina was a deliberate effort to kill off a maximum number of poor black people, and the middle-class blacks and white people of any socioeconomic level would just be collateral damage.

I first heard of the "Stop Snitching" trend a few years ago on "60 Minutes".


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

BTW, I just came from another board where there's some discussion about school vouchers, and one of the posters teaches in a district with a large Native American population. In this community, most of them don't work or take care of their children, either; they just hang around on the sidewalk outside the local headshop and smoke K2, which is still legal in this area, and bring the children with them.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

My opinion is, the "ghetto rat" sub-culture is holding down black Americans. The absolute lowest and worst of black sub-culture has now been glorified and made popular. When "gangsta" rap music first became popular, I thought it was a slap in the face to all the blacks who worked hard to rise above the "hood" and take their rightful place in society. But lo and behold, everyone just seemed to embrace it. Go figure.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Warwalk said:


> I'm kind of just reading the back and forth between everyone here. Some of the stuff people are saying, probably not intentionally, comes across as highly pre-judging, and some of the themes paint some really broad strokes against the African Americans in the US. This is one topic I'm just going to watch from the sidelines.


It must be hard living in a world where everyone else is so wrong. And even worse, they won't listen to you. Oh the horror............

Lobbing judgements and pretending to be not involved isn't working.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I have always believed that* the delay* in getting aid to New Orleans after Katrina was a deliberate effort to kill off a maximum number of poor black people, and the middle-class blacks and white people of any socioeconomic level would just be collateral damage.


There was no delay, but your statement tells me a lot about you


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There was no delay, but your statement tells me a lot about you


Really? What about all the truckloads of supplies brought in by the National Guard, who were ordered to stop at the city limits and not give them out? What about the private citizens who were able to drive right up to the Superdome and give out food and water? How about all the news photos of white people "collecting supplies" and black people "looting"?

There's also considerable evidence that the forced relocation was done to reverse-gerrymander an entrenched voting block and change the political demographics of Louisiana.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I remember going to a local pow wow and seeing a native young man wearing a tee shirt showing a snarling white guy and the title "The Fighting Whities" underneath. He saw me staring at it and returned my look directly. I burst out laughing- to me it was so funny because I thought through so many levels so fast and ended up thinking "he thinks that this will mean something bad for whites and it won't." At which he glared at me and turned his back.
This made it clear to me that I could find it funny because it was harmless to me. This young man was not going to hurt me, it did not threaten me to have him trying to get some of his own back and I was not worried about it.
It would not have been so funny to me if I had a history of arbitary violence to me based on race or had been constantly exposed to people dumping their contempt on me.
What made it ok for me, and allowed me to savor the humor in his statement, was that I was safe.
If your parents told you stories of lynching for just being black or you grew up with the chance that some white person could be safely rude to you at any turn, you might be very leery of getting into a position where you were subject to such abuse- you might simply stay with people of the same color, no matter how bad, simply because you felt the rules were not stacked against you.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

thesedays said:


> Really? What about all the truckloads of supplies brought in by the National Guard, who were ordered to stop at the city limits and not give them out? What about the private citizens who were able to drive right up to the Superdome and give out food and water? How about all the news photos of white people "collecting supplies" and black people "looting"?
> 
> There's also considerable evidence that the forced relocation was done to reverse-gerrymander an entrenched voting block and change the political demographics of Louisiana.


That's a load of convenient, self-aggrandizing opinion. If something was not perfect in the middle of that chaos, it was "racially motivated murder." Might have been racial, might not have been- could have been fear caused by all the yelling of "racist."


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

where I want to said:


> I remember going to a local pow wow and seeing a native young man wearing a tee shirt showing a snarling white guy and the title "The Fighting Whities" underneath. He saw me staring at it and returned my look directly. I burst out laughing- to me it was so funny because I thought through so many levels so fast and ended up thinking "he thinks that this will mean something bad for whites and it won't." At which he glared at me and turned his back.
> This made it clear to me that I could find it funny because it was harmless to me. This young man was not going to hurt me, it did not threaten me to have him trying to get some of his own back and I was not worried about it.
> It would not have been so funny to me if I had a history of arbitary violence to me based on race or had been constantly exposed to people dumping their contempt on me.
> What made it ok for me, and allowed me to savor the humor in his statement, was that I was safe.
> If your parents told you stories of lynching for just being black or you grew up with the chance that some white person could be safely rude to you at any turn, you might be very leery of getting into a position where you were subject to such abuse- you might simply stay with people of the same color, no matter how bad, simply because you felt the rules were not stacked against you.


I'd like to get some of those T shirts.


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

pancho said:


> I can't speak about all parts of the U.S. but where I live a black can kill another black and there be 20 witnesses and not a single one will even give a description of the killer even though it is their neighbor.
> I can remember one robbery by 4 black men where they killed 2 other black men. A TV station was interviewing people who were witness to it.
> No one knew the robbers. One woman got rather excited telling her story and said the name of one of the killers she saw running from the building.



We get that a lot here, too (Chicago). Everyone knows who did it, nobody will say.

How do you educate out of that?

:shrug:


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

katheh said:


> We get that a lot here, too (Chicago). Everyone knows who did it, nobody will say.
> 
> How do you educate out of that?
> 
> :shrug:


You can't educate a person who does not want to learn.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

pancho said:


> You can't educate a person who does not want to learn.


It has another side too. Say someone screws up their courage and "rats" on a evil guy. The police say thank you, you end up in court for all the world to see. Then the police leave you to the mercies of criminal's fellow gang members for the rest of your probably short life. It would take a lot of courage. 

So maybe having very local police who live and work in the area might help?


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

where I want to said:


> It has another side too. Say someone screws up their courage and "rats" on a evil guy. The police say thank you, you end up in court for all the world to see. Then the police leave you to the mercies of criminal's fellow gang members for the rest of your probably short life. It would take a lot of courage.
> 
> So maybe having very local police who live and work in the area might help?



It takes a lot of courage to finger your rapist in court too, but we've come a long way, baby. It's not putting a scarlet letter on your chest like it used to be. It wasn't EASY for those first victims to demand justice in court, but it is easier for the all the victims who came AFTER THEM to get justice. And no one can argue that blazing those kinds of trails isn't worth it.

People, including cops, who have the resources to leave those types of dangerous closed societies would not choose to live and raise their families there. Why should they? But instead of holding up people who aspire to a better life as an example, those people are vilified for abandoning their people and are cut off from the society they came from. Some, like pro athletes, try to keep a foot in both worlds, which is how you end up with a Michael Vick.

There is a very direct correlation between these populations (urban black, reservation Native American, back-country hill people, drug cartels, etc) and the welfare they receive. Being provided a subsistence level of survival that requires no work hasn't had the effect the government might have wanted.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

haypoint said:


> They are a people of a vastly different culture and values. They deserve an equal place in our society, but often resist our values standards. *Some give up their culture and adapt to the White man's ways*. But that's difficult, too.


That's the part that just blows my mind. What, exactly, are 'white man's ways'? Is that referring to having enough food to eat, a decent place to live/raise your kids, striving to provide for yourself? I don't understand what that phrase means.

Again, what part of their culture would they have to give up in order to survive? Is that referring to the 'male abandonment' issue?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

thesedays said:


> Really? What about all the truckloads of supplies brought in by the National Guard, who were ordered to stop at the city limits and not give them out? What about the private citizens who were able to drive right up to the Superdome and give out food and water? How about all the news photos of white people "collecting supplies" and black people "looting"?
> 
> There's also considerable evidence that the forced relocation was done to reverse-gerrymander an entrenched voting block and change the political demographics of Louisiana.


I recall it was the Mayor that refused supplies to come in. The school busses that they refused to use, too. If the Mayor stops Federal supplies, of course, individuals will still be able to bring their own. Katrina is a topic in it self and a bit off the " why is the unemployment rate so high among Black people?"

20 years ago, my community suffered a 60 inch snowfall. Roads all closed. All roof tops required shoveling or face collapse, people needed supplies, temperatures were in the teens. I did not see anyone sitting on their roof waiting for someone to help. I did not hear anyone yelling " Hep me". I didn't hear about anyone taking a crap in the High School Gym that was a location for folks that couldn't get to their homes or had lost power. I saw every one that was able out shoveling snow, tending to those that were house bound, there was no hording of food supplies or stealing costly shoes or flat screen TVs. There was no national news coverage. There was no FEMA pay checks.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

where I want to said:


> It has another side too. Say someone screws up their courage and "rats" on a evil guy. The police say thank you, you end up in court for all the world to see. Then the police leave you to the mercies of criminal's fellow gang members for the rest of your probably short life. It would take a lot of courage.
> 
> So maybe having very local police who live and work in the area might help?


Or worse yet come after your family.


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

bowdonkey said:


> Or worse yet come after your family.


The crux of it is not that they come AFTER your family.

They ARE your family.

Societal norms like that only exist because everyone involved is in cooperation to keep it that way.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

where I want to said:


> It has another side too. Say someone screws up their courage and "rats" on a evil guy. The police say thank you, you end up in court for all the world to see. Then the police leave you to the mercies of criminal's fellow gang members for the rest of your probably short life. It would take a lot of courage.
> 
> So maybe having very local police who live and work in the area might help?


Like the two young women set to testify that were kidnapped in their own front yard, stuffed into a trunk, gunfire was exchanged between the girl's parent and the kidnappers. The stolen car was found the next day, burned. The girl's bodies in shallow graves a month later. Police are required to live in the communities where they work. 
The killers were caught, sent to prison, but the message is clear to everyone else.
So the solution is to go along with the violence? How does it ever end?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Txsteader said:


> That's the part that just blows my mind. What, exactly, are 'white man's ways'? Is that referring to having enough food to eat, a decent place to live/raise your kids, striving to provide for yourself? I don't understand what that phrase means.
> 
> Again, what part of their culture would they have to give up in order to survive? Is that referring to the 'male abandonment' issue?


For thinking you don't know, you seem to have it down. Pride in family, community, job. Strive to stay off welfare. Don't have babies you don't intend on caring for. All that stupid cracker stuff.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

where I want to said:


> It has another side too. Say someone screws up their courage and "rats" on a evil guy. The police say thank you, you end up in court for all the world to see. Then the police leave you to the mercies of criminal's fellow gang members for the rest of your probably short life. It would take a lot of courage.
> 
> So maybe having very local police who live and work in the area might help?


One thing they can count on for sure. If they ever have anything the crooks wants they will become the victim. Put some in jail and others may think more about doing crime than they do when they know the community will protect them.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Really? What about all the *truckloads* of supplies brought in by the National Guard, who were ordered to stop at the city limits and not give them out?
> 
> What about the private citizens who were able to drive right up to the Superdome and give out food and water? How about all the news photos of white people "collecting supplies" and black people "looting"?


Those TRUCKS couldn't get through a lot of places as quickly as the "citizens" CARS, but there was still* NO "delay*", since supplies were dropped from helicopters, and brought in by boats



> There's also considerable evidence that the forced relocation was done to reverse-gerrymander an entrenched voting block and change the political demographics of Louisiana.


LOL

No there isn't
Nothing has changed there at all


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

willow_girl said:


> What a shame. After all, it's not like the kid named him/herself!


I know of many young Black men that had quite average names, but changed them when they got to prison. Many considered their last name to be their Slave Name and therefore changed it.( it was often differend from their siblings and had no real significance) Some just added X to the end of their name, others chose Bey or El, as part of their alignment with the Black Muslum movement or Morrish Science Temple of America or the Nation of Islam. Seems minor revisions of the Blue eyed devil hating Islam religions resinated with angry young Black men.
I think there was a boxer that changed his name, too.....

Then there was the story about the parent that was angry with the school for mispronouncing her daughter's name, Na-sha, "It's pronounced Na Dash Sha, that dash ain't silent!"


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

haypoint said:


> For thinking you don't know, you seem to have it down. Pride in family, community, job. Strive to stay off welfare. Don't have babies you don't intend on caring for. All that stupid cracker stuff.


If that's true, then I'd expect the black race to go extinct shortly because those aren't 'white man's ways', they're human values, regardless of color or ethnicity. :shocked:


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

bjba said:


> :hijacked:There certainly has been a lot of discussion although not a lot about the unemployment rate among the black community. I will admit to getting sucked into the extraneous conversation as well. Why is the unemployment rate so high in the black community?
> Prejudice, racism, choice, apathy, living on the dole, defeat? I wonder what is to blame.


I think you have a pretty good handle on the problem. Except, by order of importance your list is backwards. Wasn't always that way, but is now.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

haypoint said:


> The killers were caught, sent to prison, but the message is clear to everyone else.
> So the solution is to go along with the violence? How does it ever end?


The only solution I have thought might work is immediate ridicule toward such people. In the media, by officials, by the neighbors- a universal outcry that only cowardly trash ever even thinks of doing something like this. 
In fact, start the ridicule before anything actually happens- start with self-aggrandizing, hateful, bullying lyrics, t-shirts, movies, drug pushers, gang membership, aggressive behavior, etc. 
No lawyer-speak about a deprived childhood, mental illness, lack of education, violent environment, drugs or anything else that might be even remotely considered an excuse.
Then continue with praises for good parents, schools that create a sense of self-discipline in their students. Let the hero be the successful man, not the criminal hero. Reward the ones we want in our world, not the ones who ruin our world.


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

Ridicule and poop-talk from outsiders about a closed societies "ways" only alienates them more. I guess you forgot about the Civil War? In any case, we live in politically correct America where any lifestyle choice is just as valid as any other, so anyone speaking out against anyone's way of living will be vilified and probably sued, and in short order.

Jesse Jackson has been community organizing in Chi since before I was born, and has had lots to say about how the black father is failing his family and how the 'hood shouldn't protect the criminals among them, and even though I am by now 42 years of age, JJ is AT BEST has done nothing for his community (which he does maintain a home at the fringes of) beyond establishing himself as the face of Chicago failure. At worst, he raised a son who married a woman who gleefully abetted him in robbing their constituents and the good people of this country of millions of diverted dollars and unpaid taxes.

Nobody cares about the Chicago poor. Least of all their own leaders.

I have come to conclude in my middle age that despite the odd success story that gets out of that mess, those who live in closed societies prefer it to the alternative.

I have seen this happening on a micro scale in my own backyard since the housing bust in 2006. My husband was in the trades, and I have watched dozens of our friends slide down the easy road into letting the government support them. It's not pretty to watch that happening before your eyes, especially when our family did what we had to, what anyone could have done. It is too easy to get the government to support you anymore. "Middle Class" violence is already increasing and might have increased more except all the parents are drugging their kids into submission. I suspect it won't be too many years before the "ghetto" problems are pretty much everywhere. When people don't have to work to survive, they won't. When they don't have to work, they have plenty of time to commit crimes. Know plenty of guys committing unemployment fraud, disability fraud, to supplement their government "income." They see nothing wrong with it. Get enough people committing small crimes, the big crimes will come along soon. It's a desensitization process.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

katheh said:


> Jesse Jackson has been community organizing in Chi since before I was born, and has had lots to say about how the black father is failing his family and how the 'hood shouldn't protect the criminals among them, and even though I am by now 42 years of age, JJ is AT BEST has done nothing for his community (which he does maintain a home at the fringes of) beyond establishing himself as the face of Chicago failure. At worst, he raised a son who married a woman who gleefully abetted him in robbing their constituents and the good people of this country of millions of diverted dollars and unpaid taxes.
> 
> Nobody cares about the Chicago poor. Least of all their own leaders.


That's been my argument for awhile. I've got almost 2 decades on you age-wise, so I've seen it going on even longer. And don't get me started about JJ, who has managed to become a millionaire community organizer. :grumble:Seriously, those folks have to be ignorant to believe his bullpoop after all these years.

So, I'm wondering........how does this problem get solved? Do taxpayers just pay perpetually for a culture that refuses to help better themselves while demanding financial aid?


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

Txsteader said:


> So, I'm wondering........how does this problem get solved? Do taxpayers just pay perpetually for a culture that refuses to help better themselves while demanding financial aid?



Well, I am with the tough love approach - allow less, and cut off much sooner.

But I can see which way the wind is blowing. There are times it puts me in despair


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

MO_cows said:


> My opinion is, the "ghetto rat" sub-culture is holding down black Americans. The absolute lowest and worst of black sub-culture has now been glorified and made popular. When "gangsta" rap music first became popular, I thought it was a slap in the face to all the blacks who worked hard to rise above the "hood" and take their rightful place in society. But lo and behold, everyone just seemed to embrace it. Go figure.


The most surprising thing about this "music" is that most of the people who buy it are white and middle-class.

That wasn't always the case. In the late 1980s, Public Enemy performed in our area, and my brother went with several friends. He was one of maybe 20 white people in the audience. That wouldn't be the case now.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

katheh said:


> Ridicule and poop-talk from outsiders about a closed societies "ways" only alienates them more. I guess you forgot about the Civil War? In any case, we live in politically correct America where any lifestyle choice is just as valid as any other, so anyone speaking out against anyone's way of living will be vilified and probably sued, and in short order.
> .


I'm not talking about ridiculing black people - I'm talking about riduculing behavior from anyone that contributes to the disintegration of society. That means white, brown or black people who steal or commit fraud. That means sleazy politicians of any stripe. That means kids that don't go to schhool. 
And yes, that means making sure that people who don't support themselves at least don't feel it's ok. None of that going Galt nonsense.
Of course, if you are going do this, you need to have a place where reasonably good behavior is rewarded. That a person who gets up each morning to go to work is respected. That a student who studies and gets good grades is up in front of the school assembly with awards. No "everyone ggets a trophy for participating." This has been tried for decades and it just keeps getting worse. 
A person who works for minimum wage should do markedly better than a welfare recipient. Making people feel good for bad choices only makes more bad choices. If they can't figure out what works, then they need to be told.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

TheMartianChick said:


> Recently, our area has made education a priority by guaranteeing every city school district graduate a free college education. It is the way in which we are investing in the next generation.


So if my children and I moved into your city/neighborhood and they graduated HS they would get a free college education?


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> And you don't get to pick your parents either.


Maybe, at the end of the day, that's the key. I'd venture to guess that most of us have done pretty much as our parents did. (I know I have.)

Occasionally someone from a nondescript background becomes wildly successful, or a golden boy flames out, but those are the exceptions, not the rule.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

willow_girl said:


> Maybe, at the end of the day, that's the key. I'd venture to guess that most of us have done pretty much as our parents did. (I know I have.)
> 
> Occasionally someone from a nondescript background becomes wildly successful, or a golden boy flames out, but those are the exceptions, not the rule.


And if yor mom has never held a job and her mom never held a job and the only men you know sell crack.....


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

haypoint said:


> And if yor mom has never held a job and her mom never held a job and the only men you know sell crack.....


I guess all is lost..... Hopeless.. Sad....


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

haypoint said:


> And if yor mom has never held a job and her mom never held a job and the only men you know sell crack.....


And the government is their enabler........


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

Yet another example from local Chi news:

A 6-month old baby has now died after being shot 5 times yesterday in a drive-by (run-by) shooting. Her father was changing her diaper in the street in their minivan. This happened at 1 in the afternoon yesterday.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...in-woodlawn-shooting-20130311,0,3502423.story

The baby underwent hours (and probably a million $ of) of surgery last night and this morning, then died. She was shot in the leg, the neck, the liver, etc. 

The first "update" I saw this morning (prior to the announcement that she died) was that this was "not the baby's first brush with gun violence." The mother was shot in the leg when she was 8 months pregnant. It does seem the mom was trying to improve her lot, she was working at McDonald's at the time (McD's is a good wage job especially for urban people, they pay reasonably well, offer benefits, and plenty of opportunity for advancement, as well as the ability to transfer to another store if you move, plus there is one on about every corner).

Of course, nobody saw anything. Even with a $5000 reward put up by a local church.

Your tax and health care dollars at work.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted by *TheMartianChick*
> _
> Recently, our area has made education a priority by guaranteeing *every city school district graduate a free college education*. It is the way in which we are investing in the next generation._


I just heard a report on the radio today that close to 80% of NY City high school grads have to be taught remedial math, science and reading before they can qualify for college courses


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

where I want to said:


> No- the word is excuses, not reasons. This is a country of free education. Many people have come here from other countries, having little education themselves, and have had a good life and raised children to have a superior life.
> 
> Belittling successful people while glorifing unsuccessful people as victims insures that success will continue to elude them.
> 
> This was a thread about black people, who have had institutional barriers to success for centuries that has left a residue that is difficcult to shed. It is now being overcome gradually but that is not the excuse for others to latch onto.


Those coming from other countries are usually provided with more opportunities than those born within the US. It's an excuse for some, but not all glorify in being victims. Talk to the black youth and kids. They have the same dreams of succeeding as the whites do but society has made it harder for them to succeed. Those that do succeed have done so with much more effort than their white counterparts.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

bjba said:


> I am offended by your frequent and liberal use of the term *******. As defined by Websters New World College dictionary *******:
> 
> I suspect you would view my whole family as ********. My dad spent 37 years dodging bullets and being stuck in some hellhole or another so people like you could look down on him. I did my time from the jungle to the desert so you could disparage me and my children.
> Your oh so precious inclusiveness excludes me and my family. ******* is a stereotypical disparagement of group of people and I find it insulting. You sir/madam have lost any credibility or admiration I might have had for you.


I don't find the term "*******" as deragatory. My Dad is a *******. He's a hard worker that raised 5 kids, all with strong work ethics and good morals. Yes, he was poor, but he gave his family something money can't buy. So, IMO, being a ******* isn't a bad things. Wish we had more of them.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Txsteader said:


> Now there's an interesting topic.
> 
> I've heard similar comments made recently, about black vs white culture and how many blacks reject anything considered as white culture.
> 
> This is puzzling to me, so I'd like to ask any of our black members: is it true that, culturally, blacks do not value education? Is this possibly the root of the problem for why blacks do so poorly.....they simply don't see any value in education? Or is it simply a hatred for anything they see a 'white culture'?


I'm not black, but I can answer your question, no. They have the same values as their white counterparts. Some value education and others don't, same as whites. My closest friend is a single mother, black woman. She is raising her two kids, plus took in her brother's two kids when he went to prison for drugs. She works two jobs trying to provide a good life for those kids. She is strict with them, especially when it comes to school and church. I have never known these kids to miss a single day of school and if an issue ever came up she is there immediately taking care of it. The biggest problems I see within the black community is that it hasn't been that long ago that the black students were not afforded the same education as the white students. I remember when they did the integrations. The black parents took their children to the schools under armed guards. Does that sound like people who don't value education?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

watcher said:


> A little background on me. I grew up in an area which was about 50-50 white-black in a time when a black MAN would step aside for a white child out of fear not the goodness of his heart. My dad was one step away from having a funny hat made from a white sheet in his closet. Yet for all of my life I have lived King's dream and didn't judge a man by his skin color (made for some rowdie dinner table talks in my house).
> 
> When I was a young man, yeah I can remember that long ago, I had many very close friends who were black. Because of that I was accepted by most others in the black community. Been many of times I was in places where I felt like the only white stripe on a Zebra . I can tell you blacks do NOT put the same value on education as whites (from college and forward I can tell you whites do not put the same value on it as Asians!).
> 
> The majority of the older ones rebelled against anything white in the 60s and 70s. If you are old enough you remember 'soul food' and 'throwing off the white man's name'. This included, to their harm, "white man's" education. The children of these older rebels heard their stories of real racism and have been fed a steady diet of "American is racist" by people who want nothing more than to use the blacks to get and keep power. The kids have been told over and over by their 'leaders' that they are not as good as a white and/or they can never reach the same level as whites because of racism. To them anything which conforms to the "American culture" is racist. This includes education. If you get a good education and try to get a good job you are just trying to be like the racist white America. Dropping out and talking "black" goes to show you are a good black not some want-a-be white.


 
I disagree with you. If you remember those days, you should remember when they were first trying to desegregate the schools. These black parents sent their children to the white schools under armed guards. If that doesn't show how much they wanted their children to have a chance at a decent education, I don't know what does.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

bridget said:


> That's one thing I have never figured out. Why isn't our prez referrred to as half white?
> 
> It is so strange.


It goes back to the days of slavery. If a person had just a little black blood in their body they were to be listed as black. My DS is biracial, but on his birth certificate they only put that he is black.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

JeffreyD said:


> People change their names all the time. They could too! It is a shame that someone wouldn't hire someone because of their name. Ok, not just a shame, it's stupid! Use their initials then! Good grief!! :smack


It takes money to change your name. Besides, why should they have to change their names? Besdies, they probably were not told it was because of their name.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Warwalk said:


> I'm kind of just reading the back and forth between everyone here. Some of the stuff people are saying, probably not intentionally, comes across as highly pre-judging, and some of the themes paint some really broad strokes against the African Americans in the US. This is one topic I'm just going to watch from the sidelines.


It's always that way when the topic of race or racism comes up around here. It's been quite an eye opener for me regardeing some of the members.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

wannabechef said:


> And there's part of the problem right there...
> 
> Just what is an African American? Are they from Africa? By calling someone an African American you single them out and make them different/special from all other "Americans" we don't call Chinese people who live in America Chinese Americans...and white people with German and English heritage like myself are not called German/English Americans. How many "African Americans" have ever been to Africa or even know where it is?
> 
> ...


You have Asian American, Native Americans, Latin Americans, ect. I agree, it should just be Americans.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

where I want to said:


> It must be hard living in a world where everyone else is so wrong. And even worse, they won't listen to you. Oh the horror............
> 
> Lobbing judgements and pretending to be not involved isn't working.


From this post, looks like many are lobbing judgements.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

katheh said:


> We get that a lot here, too (Chicago). Everyone knows who did it, nobody will say.
> 
> How do you educate out of that?
> 
> :shrug:


Fear is a powerful thing. If they speak up, who in their family will be the next to be murdered?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

katheh said:


> The crux of it is not that they come AFTER your family.
> 
> They ARE your family.
> 
> Societal norms like that only exist because everyone involved is in cooperation to keep it that way.


Do you have statistics on that? Usually it's the fear that if they speak up their brother or sister, or child will be the next victim.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

haypoint said:


> For thinking you don't know, you seem to have it down. Pride in family, community, job. Strive to stay off welfare. Don't have babies you don't intend on caring for. All that stupid cracker stuff.


I've seen as many whites that don't strive for those characteristics as I do blacks.


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

Sonshine said:


> Fear is a powerful thing. If they speak up, who in their family will be the next to be murdered?



So it's appropriate to keep that going?

I spent my entire childhood as an urban white kid in the DEEP minority of the schools & neighborhood I lived in. Closed societies stay closed because they want to deal with their issues (for lack of a better term) rather than have anyone from the outside tell them what to do or impose any type of different social order. It isn't always (or even mostly) fear. It is an unwillingness to change. Yes, the ruling class back in the day did create the conditions to breed that closed society, but throwing money at it now isn't solving it. Neither is going on the news crying woe is me while people you know, your family and your neighbors are shooting up the street on a daily basis. Staying somewhere babies get shot every day rather than hitting the road isn't a choice I would make, and it is a choice. I did taxes for a while, the typical urban single mom gets a couple thou back every year on her taxes, plenty of money to move her family somewhere safer. The same subsidized daycare, etc is available everywhere here in IL, they stay there because they want to.

I saw this with two clearly different racially closed societies (black and Native American). Closed societies operate differently than society at large. They want it to stay that way. The issue the rest of the country has is we are paying for those closed societies to be able to stay that way.


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

Sonshine said:


> Do you have statistics on that? *Usually it's the fear that if they speak up their brother or sister, or child will be the next victim.*


Do you have statistics regarding your claim?

Why is it people who want statistics always follow up that demand with an unsupported claim of their own?

I'm posting about my life experience, not writing a research paper. You will need read someone else if you are looking for citations.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

katheh said:


> Do you have statistics regarding your claim?
> 
> Why is it people who want statistics always follow up that demand with an unsupported claim of their own?
> 
> I'm posting about my life experience, not writing a research paper. You will need read someone else if you are looking for citations.


I'm also posting from my life experiences. I grew up in black neighborhoods in Rockford, IL. I have lived all over the US and have seen the same things. I am raising a biracial child and see the way he is treated and to some extent, I am treated because of the color of his skin.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

katheh said:


> So it's appropriate to keep that going?
> 
> I spent my entire childhood as an urban white kid in the DEEP minority of the schools & neighborhood I lived in. Closed societies stay closed because they want to deal with their issues (for lack of a better term) rather than have anyone from the outside tell them what to do or impose any type of different social order. It isn't always (or even mostly) fear. It is an unwillingness to change. Yes, the ruling class back in the day did create the conditions to breed that closed society, but throwing money at it now isn't solving it. Neither is going on the news crying woe is me while people you know, your family and your neighbors are shooting up the street on a daily basis. Staying somewhere babies get shot every day rather than hitting the road isn't a choice I would make, and it is a choice. I did taxes for a while, the typical urban single mom gets a couple thou back every year on her taxes, plenty of money to move her family somewhere safer. The same subsidized daycare, etc is available everywhere here in IL, they stay there because they want to.
> 
> I saw this with two clearly different racially closed societies (black and Native American). Closed societies operate differently than society at large. They want it to stay that way. The issue the rest of the country has is we are paying for those closed societies to be able to stay that way.


Where did I say it was appropriate? I'm saying that there are reasons that may be beyond your understanding. I take it you are white. I'm white/native american. I grew up in black neighborhoods and am raising a biracial child. I don't see what you seem to. I see people that want to better themselves, but it's not as easy as some seem to try to make it sound. Yes, there's a problem. Yes, there needs to be solutions to the problem, but I don't think it's right to make generalized statements about all people of color. The old saying, untill you walk a mile in their shoes seems to apply here.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Maybe if the blacks would act different the other people would treat them different.
Look at Jackson, Ms. Used to be a nice city. Now all of the whites have left the city. Blocks and blocks of empty houses where the owners just moved out and left them. Impossible to sell them and the crime rate is so high no one wants to live there. Even the police are crooks. Just a couple of weeks ago they found 4 policeman guilty of crimes. One murdered his own 1 year old daughter. 3 were caught in a sting as they provided police escorts to shipments of drugs.
I know of 1 white man who chose to stay in Jackson. He built a 10 foot chain link fence with concertina wire around the top to protect his property.
Even the churches have fences much like that with armed guards.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Sonshine said:


> I'm not black, but I can answer your question, no. They have the same values as their white counterparts. Some value education and others don't, same as whites. My closest friend is a single mother, black woman. She is raising her two kids, plus took in her brother's two kids when he went to prison for drugs. She works two jobs trying to provide a good life for those kids. She is strict with them, especially when it comes to school and church. I have never known these kids to miss a single day of school and if an issue ever came up she is there immediately taking care of it. The biggest problems I see within the black community is that it hasn't been that long ago that the black students were not afforded the same education as the white students. I remember when they did the integrations. The black parents took their children to the schools under armed guards. Does that sound like people who don't value education?


I know there are exceptions. That rejection of white values isn't evident in my part of the country (perhaps why I don't understand it very well). Blacks have worked alongside whites in the refineries and medical center for decades, put their kids through college, etc. 

As to the desegregation issue, it's been 40 years. While you may (rightly) state that it hasn't been long enough to ensure equal quality of education, what I'm seeing is a backward trend......and that is disturbing; those blacks that literally reject the opportunity and refuse to better themselves-------much less see education as the key to improving their lot in life. Instead, they've been 'convinced' that they deserve the same as everyone else w/o putting forth the effort.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Another observation/question: why is the phenomenon only evident in the black community? How come Asians and Hispanics don't reject the 'white' value of education? How come Asians rarely complain about anything in spite of having been used for slave labor as well?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Txsteader said:


> I know there are exceptions. That rejection of white values isn't evident in my part of the country (perhaps why I don't understand it very well). Blacks have worked alongside whites in the refineries and medical center for decades, put their kids through college, etc.
> 
> As to the desegregation issue, it's been 40 years. While you may (rightly) state that it hasn't been long enough to ensure equal quality of education, what I'm seeing is a backward trend......and that is disturbing; those blacks that literally reject the opportunity and refuse to better themselves-------much less see education as the key to improving their lot in life. Instead, they've been 'convinced' that they deserve the same as everyone else w/o putting forth the effort.


As you have known me for quite some time, you are aware of the fact that I have lived all over the US as well as overseas. It's not just in your area that the rejection of white values isn't evident. Sure, there's always going to be some that will game the system, but that's true regardless of their race.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Txsteader said:


> Another observation/question: why is the phenomenon only evident in the black community? How come Asians and Hispanics don't reject the 'white' value of education? How come Asians rarely complain about anything in spite of having been used for slave labor as well?


It's not as prominent in the Asian communities, although they do tend to self segregate. However, I see it as much in the hispanic communities as I do the black communities.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I once counseled a very nice 14/15 year old black girl who was from Africa. Her parents were affluent and had sent her to a private school, but when she reached high school age they decided they wanted her to get an American high school and college education, so they seized on a job opportunity that her father had and moved to America.

The reason I was seeing her was that she was having a horrible time fitting in at her high school, and she was depressed. The school she was going to was a fairly good one, but it's district pulled students from a mix between Section 8 housing and middle class housing. The girl told me that she had tried to fit in with the blacks at her school, but she couldn't - because "their attitude towards education and life is just terrible".

This is a girl who knew when she was in Africa that you either did well in your private school (there were no public schools) or your parents would stop paying the hefty tuition fees and you'd be out working the fields from sun-up to sun-down 7 days a week/365 days a year. If you took a math test and got 2 problems wrong, the teacher called you up in front of the class and smacked you two times with a thin reed. Gaining an education was a privilege, not a right, and if you didn't put the effort into it than you knew that in order to survive you'd be doing very hard manual labor for the rest of your life. The choice was crystal clear.... and everyone who's parents had the means to send them to school worked their butts off at it.

This young lady went on to tell me that she had studied the American Civil Rights movement, and it made her absolutely sick to know that her fellow black students' ancestors had fought for the RIGHT to a free public education, and now that they had it they didn't seem to value it at all. The black girls at her school were always talking about skipping class, didn't care one lick about getting good grades, went on and on about how they were going to have babies to get child support and welfare so they wouldn't have to work a job and they could drop out of school, etc. 

The girl I was counseling couldn't come to terms with the attitudes of her peers. She said that she lost it when one of the other girls was complaining about how boring detention was, sitting there staring at the wall for an hour after school and how horrible it was...and she told that girl that if she had mouthed off to a teacher back at her school in Africa, not only would the teacher have smacked her with a reed for the disrespect, the headmaster would have then taken a turn, then her parents would have been summoned and they would have taken a turn as well. Then the girl would have been expelled and the next morning at sunrise she'd have been out in a field with a shovel digging all day long. So given that, she didn't think that this girl whining about sitting still for an hour was that big of a deal. That was the last straw, and she refused to associate with any of the other black students at her school from that point on.

Interestingly enough, this young lady ended up befriending several of the Asian students at her school, and found that she fit in well with them. I only saw her for about 6 months, but I'll never forget her... she was such a great kid and I know she has gone far with her life. I always hated that I never get updates from the teens I used to counsel


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

bluemoonluck said:


> This young lady went on to tell me that she had studied the American Civil Rights movement, and it made her absolutely sick to know that *her fellow black students' ancestors had fought for the RIGHT to a free public education, and now that they had it they didn't seem to value it at all.* The black girls at her school were always talking about skipping class, didn't care one lick about getting good grades, went on and on about how they were going to have babies to get child support and welfare so they wouldn't have to work a job and they could drop out of school, etc.


That is the greatest shame/outrage of the entire issue. 

Sad and shameful.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

bluemoonluck said:


> I once counseled a very nice 14/15 year old black girl who was from Africa.
> 
> The girl told me that she had tried to fit in with the blacks at her school, but she couldn't - because "their attitude towards education and life is just terrible".


I am tired throwing money at the problem and hearing the excuses, the apologist and all the reasons why Blacks or anyone does so poorly. They make choices and life plays out based on the choices. This country offers more opportunity than maybe anywhere.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Warwalk said:


> Some of the stuff people are saying, probably not intentionally, comes across as highly pre-judging, and some of the themes paint some really broad strokes against the African Americans in the US.


Some people make themselves look really bad by showing such racism and prejudice against a whole group of people.

I think the reason unemployment in the black community is so his is because it has been that way for so long. The longer people are oppressed the less they work against it. They become defeated in spirit, and almost expect it to continue. And, in America, racism is still alive in many places. The board comments themselves from some people show this. We are past the 1950s, but some of the bad attitudes of history live on even today.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Some people on the forum would rather tell the truth than be PC.
Some others don't believe the same way. Being PC is more important than the truth.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Some people on the forum would rather tell the truth than be PC.
> Some others don't believe the same way. Being PC is more important than the truth.


 And some believe the truth is different than others may percieve it.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Txsteader said:


> If, according to BLS, the unemployment rate for blacks is running roughly double (~14%) the national average (~7.7%), why isn't there a greater outcry among blacks, especially w/ a black President in office?
> 
> Just curious.


It would be cultural suicide for a "True Believer" to say anything derogatory against their own Messiah, Lord, and Savior.

Obama could slaughter and roast members of his 'flock' on the WH lawn, and there'd be an endless line of willing supplicants. 

For those who aren't aware of "True Believers".... to them, facts matter not, nothing can change their minds once fixed...


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I have also been told, and read, that in the Black community, if one tries to excel in school in order to succeed, that there is a degree of social ostracization... trying to be too white. I believe Mr. Bill Cosby has mentioned this before. I would imagine this phenomena is greater in the inner cities (where large clusters of welfare slaves live) vs. those living in the suburbs or countryside. 1/4 of my graduating class was black, and to my knowledge, they've all succeeded in life. They made good grades, some went to college, some to the trades.... just like everyone else in class.

Born into welfare, with the sense of entitlements, has to be a drain on one's gumption... in a family where there are three generations living, and no one's ever had a job, what's the incentive? when Uncle Sammy will take care of all one's needs? Btw... "this" is race neutral. I know several multigenerational white welfare families... inbred (literally) and always poor, and drunk.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Txsteader said:


> That's the part that just blows my mind. What, exactly, are 'white man's ways'? Is that referring to having enough food to eat, a decent place to live/raise your kids, striving to provide for yourself? I don't understand what that phrase means.
> 
> Again, what part of their culture would they have to give up in order to survive? Is that referring to the 'male abandonment' issue?


The 'white man's way' was you educate yourself and work hard to get what you want.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> I disagree with you. If you remember those days, you should remember when they were first trying to desegregate the schools. These black parents sent their children to the white schools under armed guards. If that doesn't show how much they wanted their children to have a chance at a decent education, I don't know what does.


Different generation. The generation who grew up under REAL racism knew the only way to improve things was education. The following generations lost that. Don't believe me check the drop out rate almost any school in the US today. Then compare it to the rate for whites and Asians.


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

haypoint said:


> I don't think the whites in this country have a right to force our mostly Europian society rules on a people that embrace their African culture.


I'm sitting in poxy Africa right now putting up with their 'culture.' If blacks want to embrace the African culture then let them do it in Africa rather that laying around here while being supported by the rules of European society. I would love to see some of these people embracing what I'm smelling outside the not very good hotel I'm staying in.

My European societ rules say I don't need to be supporting some not very bright, not very reliable personn who has a problem with substance abuse and who has a whole lot of 'attitude.' What about my right to embrace my culture? Why does this door only ever swing one way, I have to respect the bum but the bum has no obligation to respect me?


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

It's so easy (and fun), for us to sit, in judgement of others, without walking in their shoes.

Most of us, descended, from _many generations_, of relatively solid, maternal/paternal, tight-knit families, with close siblings and extended family members. Most of us, learned solid work ethic, faith in religion and sense of community, from Parents, Grand-parent, Aunts and Uncles, who taught us by example, since they, just like their ancestors, lived that life.

Blacks were snatched - in chains, from their ancestral tribal villages and taken literally, a world away, for the forced servitude of others. One of the jobs of the slave women (and girls), was for forced sex and give birth to more slaves. The largest male slaves, were sold as "breeder bucks". Slave children separated and sold as seen fit. Not the ideal family life.

Once "freed", many wandered off in search of a better life that did not exist, mostly to the North, where they were not particularly welcomed and faced a life of extreme poverty. The Government - in it's infinite wisdom, "helped" them by rewarding a life of welfare, in turn, promoting no work ethic, promiscuity and unwed child birth.. White Americans treated them like second class citizens until the 1960's

Things have only gotten worse, where now the best job in the inner city, is a drug dealer, which has a very short career life, ending, either by incarceration or death. As in slavery, many are almost completely reliant on others, for their livelihood.

This is certainly not true of all blacks, very many of which were able - for whatever methods, to break out of that mold and live a decent, even wonderful life and pass that life, on to their children.

It just seems ironic, that we - with our heritage, can't seem to understand why blacks (with their heritage) have such a difficult time adapting to _our_ "social norms" and cannot simply "snap out it", to leave the only life, they have ever known.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Wanderer0101 said:


> I'm sitting in poxy Africa right now putting up with their 'culture.' If blacks want to embrace the African culture then let them do it in Africa rather that laying around here while being supported by the rules of European society. I would love to see some of these people embracing what I'm smelling outside the not very good hotel.
> 
> My European societ rules say I don't need to be supporting some not very bright, not very reliable personn who has a problem with substance abuse and who has a whole lot of 'attitude.' What about my right to embrace my culture? Why does this door only ever swing one way, I have to respect the bum but the bum has no obligation to respect me?


Are you saying that the African culture is what holds Blacks in America back?

Oops quoted the wrong person

You know who I meant.


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

HDRider said:


> Are you saying that the African culture is what holds Blacks in America back?
> 
> Oops quoted the wrong person
> 
> You know who I meant.


Yeah, I know who you mean. Though I would have to say that there's a whole lot of African culture that is not conducive to a productive, pleasant society. Corruption, deliberate pig ignorance, obstuctionism, tribalism, massive indiscipline, indifference and a whole lot of other lovely characteristics are rife on the dark continent. There are exceptions; they live in houses with high walls, guards, and their own generators.


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

plowjockey said:


> It's so easy (and fun), for us to sit, in judgement of others, without walking in their shoes.
> 
> Most of us, descended, from _many generations_, of relatively solid, maternal/paternal, tight-knit families, with close siblings and extended family members. Most of us, learned solid work ethic, faith in religion and sense of community, from Parents, Grand-parent, Aunts and Uncles, who taught us by example, since they, just like their ancestors, lived that life.
> 
> ...


The more people make excuses for them the less incentive they have to actually do something about their situation. An unfortunately large segment of our society have become enablers of unproductive, destructive behaviour. All the while hiding behind the unhinged concept that all cultures and societies are or equal worth.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Wanderer0101 said:


> The more people make excuses for them the less incentive they have to actually do something about their situation. An unfortunately large segment of our society have become enablers of unproductive, destructive behaviour. All the while hiding behind the unhinged concept that all cultures and societies are or equal worth.


It's not excuses, it's fact. The "destructive behavior" has always been there.

I have a huge work ethic, because I learned it from two hardworking, caring parents and other family members.

If I was born, not knowing who my father was and everyone around me, on government aid, would I have the same work ethic? How could I? 

Could I learn the work ethic? Maybe, but exactly what would be the vehicle, to "transform" me, into a productive member of society, as a young adult, or adult, verses learning it since birth?

You make it sound so simple. Please share.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

thesedays said:


> TheMartianChick, where did your mother live that she couldn't live in a dorm in 1980? I couldn't even imagine that in 1970! 1960, maybe. That's absolutely horrible!
> 
> BTW, I graduated from high school in 1981. The black kids I grew up with include a dentist, a schoolteacher who left education to be a flight attendant, a reporter for the New York Times, an attorney, and other people who lead stable, middle-class lives.
> 
> ETA: The flight attendant's parents? Her dad was a physician and her mother, a schoolteacher. And they got their degrees in the 1950s.


I'm sorry if I wasn't more clear in the way that I phrased that... My mother wasn't able to stay in the dorms back when she graduated from high school. She's 80 years old now, so it was quite a while ago.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

There have been a lot of posts here and I don't have time to answer all of them, but I did want to share a few more items.

Like most, I don't like the idea of throwing money at a problem without a clear expectation that the problem will be solved. There are nonprofit agencies and models that do a good job of addressing many of the issues that have been brought up. However, there are a lot of programs and policies that don't work. The programs that work should be replicated and those that don't should be eliminated. However, the programs cannot be effectively administered from the top down. 

Imagine if someone with no experience with your situation were to examine your life and start making judgements and creating programs to address what you need, without actually talking to you first... This is what happens every day in minority communities and impoverished communities. The intentions might be good, but the result is usually a fiasco and people point to the recipients of the services as being the problem. Sometimes they are, but not always.

The program that I mentioned that helps to provide support to college students works well because they actually talk to college dropouts to determine what went wrong. The students were able to tell them and the program was created to address the issues. Rather than paint all minorities with a broad brush as needing their assistance, they identify students (of any color) that are first generation college students.

They have social work students from the local university assist them with all of the college entry paperwork and assist with the cost of testing fees. Students are given lists of supplies that they should take to college that are far more detailed than the information provided by any campus. For students that don't have the ability to provide bedding and other college supplies, the program will provide them. Freshman students are taught about "college-etiquette" and (when possible) are linked with another older student from the program in either the 2nd or 3rd year at the same school. In this way, the students go from being at-risk of failure to being able to advocate for the next wave of students. This builds future leaders and agents of change.

One issue that the program identified was homelessness among children that had aged out of social services. When a foster kid graduates from high school, he or she is cut off. So, while they may get into college, they have no address to call home during school breaks when the campus is closed. (I was particularly shocked to learn this... It had never occurred to me!) The nonprofit asked several apartment complexes and arranged to house those students, dormitory style, during the breaks.

Often times, there are many good and successful programs that no one has heard of and there is usually no central "clearinghouse" to steer people to. The grant money that allows nonprofit programs to exist often doesn't include funding for much in the way of advertising dollars to get the word out. 

I learned about the college support program through my board affiliation with a non-profit housing agency (that is now helping to house the ex-foster kids) and was able to carry the information back to the board of my youth music program that seeks to get kids into college music majors. Why was the college support information so important to a music program? One of the students from the music program was about to fail a music course (orchestra) because he missed a mandatory performance. He would have been kicked out of the music program entirely. Why did he miss the performance? In many colleges, music majors must own appropriate concert attire. For an orchestra, that means a tuxedo. He didn't own one and couldn't afford to buy or rent one. The college support program talked to a tuxedo rental place and was able to convince them to donate one that they were going to retire, to address the issue. Who would have thought that the fix could be so simple? 

By the way, this young man will be graduating with a degree in Music Education next year. Depending on the school district, he will likely earn $50k in his first year. Having listened to him play his instruments, we don't expect him to teach school for very long. You'll be hearing his music on the radio. He's that good!


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

plowjockey said:


> White Americans treated them like second class citizens until the 1960's
> 
> Things have only gotten worse, where now the best job in the inner city, is a drug dealer, which has a very short career life, ending, either by incarceration or death. As in slavery, many are almost completely reliant on others, for their livelihood.


So the civil rights era/laws accomplished nothing? The point is, if it has gotten worse, it is of their own choosing, because others sacrificed much so others could at least have the same opportunities as everyone else.

They have chosen to throw those opportunities (and the prior sacrifices that made them possible) away w/ both hands. 

I'm just wondering if those who willfully reject a free education deserve getting any type of financial assistance when they're unable to get job.

And the screwed up thing about the education system is that the educators don't care. All that matters is that warm bodies fill the seats so that federal funds keep flowing in.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

watcher said:


> Different generation. The generation who grew up under REAL racism knew the only way to improve things was education. The following generations lost that. Don't believe me check the drop out rate almost any school in the US today. Then compare it to the rate for whites and Asians.


Sorry to say, but REAL racism is still alive and well. I see it every day in the way some people choose to treat my DS and his friends.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Sorry to say, but REAL racism is still alive and well. I see it every day in the way some people choose to treat my DS and his friends.


All my life, I've met people that were mean, cut in front of me, snatched opportunities from me, passed me by without helping, ignored me, called me names. People were promoted instead of me, I wasn't hired, I wasn't accepted and I was unjustly treated.



But I wasn't a minority, so I just figured that is the way the world is and I got over it.



At the far, far other end of the scale are the people that wear their shoes unlaced, baggy pants, poor posture, holes in their nose, eye brow and tongue or tattoos on their neck or face that don't understand how unemployable that makes them.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> our[/I] "social norms" and cannot simply "snap out it", to leave the only life, they have ever known.


I don't care if they "snap out of it" or not.
I am just tired of supporting them and having to pay extra for the problems they seem to have.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

plowjockey said:


> It's so easy (and fun), for us to sit, in judgement of others, without walking in their shoes.
> 
> Most of us, descended, from _many generations_, of relatively solid, maternal/paternal, tight-knit families, with close siblings and extended family members. Most of us, learned solid work ethic, faith in religion and sense of community, from Parents, Grand-parent, Aunts and Uncles, who taught us by example, since they, just like their ancestors, lived that life.
> 
> ...


Not fun at all. 

Sad but not fun.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Txsteader said:


> So the civil rights era/laws accomplished nothing? The point is, if it has gotten worse, it is of their own choosing, because others sacrificed much so others could at least have the same opportunities as everyone else.
> 
> They have chosen to throw those opportunities (and the prior sacrifices that made them possible) away w/ both hands.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with the first part of your statement. If someone flips the bird to FREE public education, drops out, then can't get a job, why should they be eligible for public assistance? How do people look at themselves in the mirror in the mornings, knowing that their ancestors in the not-so-distant past fought and died for the RIGHT to have that free education that they so quickly abandoned?

I fact, I'd say that if the Blacks in this country had the guts and ability to gather themselves and FIGHT for what they did during the Civil Rights Movement, what has changed between then and now? Why did those self-starting people who knew that they wanted equal rights and were willing to die for the cause turn into the stereotypical ghetto-dwelling drug dealers of today? I really wonder about this.....

However your last paragraph is all wrong. Most of the teachers I know worried about whether a kid's warm body was in their seat because chronic absences equal less learning time, and they *want *the kids to learn. 

My Mom was a teacher for over 20 years and she cared a great deal about the kids in her classroom - I remember her worrying about certain kids at night because they were going thru a rough time at home, and working hard after-hours to get them the help they needed. My sister has been a teacher now for almost 15 years and she, too, cares about the kids she teaches and worries about the "problem children" long after the school day has ended. 

Heck, my best friend has been a teacher for over 5 years now, and he still stays after school until 5 or 6pm 5 days a week to help the kids with ANY subject they need help in, not just the ones he teaches.... then he goes home, grades papers, writes lesson plans, answers emails from parents/students, researches his subject so he can stay up-to-date on it, etc. Rare is the night he's in bed before midnight :shrug: Mind you, he has a PhD in Engineering and worked as an engineer for most of his adult life... He turns down engineering jobs regularly, so he could be making a whole lot more $$ than he does teaching inner city kids :shrug:. He CHOOSES to teach, because he genuinely loves helping kids learn. 

Yes, there are crappy teachers out there. Yes, there are crappy schools out there. But from what I've seen, most teachers wouldn't put up with the crappy pay and unrealistic expectations of administrators unless they cared about the kids :shrug:.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

TheMartianChick said:


> Imagine if someone with no experience with your situation were to examine your life and start making judgements and creating programs to address what you need, without actually talking to you first... This is what happens every day in minority communities and impoverished communities. The intentions might be good, but the result is usually a fiasco and people point to the recipients of the services as being the problem. Sometimes they are, but not always.
> 
> 
> They have social work students from the local university assist them with all of the college entry paperwork and assist with the cost of testing fees. Students are given lists of supplies that they should take to college that are far more detailed than the information provided by any campus. For students that don't have the ability to provide bedding and other college supplies, the program will provide them. Freshman students are taught about "college-etiquette" and (when possible) are linked with another older student from the program in either the 2nd or 3rd year at the same school. In this way, the students go from being at-risk of failure to being able to advocate for the next wave of students. This builds future leaders and agents of change.
> ...


This is the sort of thing that I find so frustrating. Do you think that many people are good at "college culture" before they get there? Do you think that I was provided with a list of what was needed or what was expected when I went to college? 
I learned by taking the blame for my mistakes and correcting them ( or sometimes just living with the results of my errors without blaming others.) I looked at what others did and copied that if I thought it was good. 
Do you think that someone handed me the slide rule (I know, I'm old) that was needed for physics class? I got it with wages for being a lab assistant plus some gift money from my grandmother. I wasn't born knowing I'd need it. I saw the benefit of good quality instruments and that it what I spent money to get. No eating out, no movies, no anything else til I got it. 
The difference between then and now it not having whatever I needed, it was knowing that I had to figure out the way to get it myself. What was expected was that I figure this all out mostly by myself and do something about it. 
It never occurred to me that it was not possible for me to do what others were doing, so I did it. Frequestly not too gracefully, not with ease but it was done.
What I got from my parent's is total ignorance that I could rely on anyone but myself. So I never looked for it and I thank my parents for this always. 

So you can have a huge benefits package where lots of money is spent on shoehorning people to fit it or you can have a million individuals all looking for their own way to succeed.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Sorry to say, but REAL racism is still alive and well. I see it every day in the way some people choose to treat my DS and his friends.


They have been beaten and had no legal recourse because no law enforcement agency would help because of their color? They have been told they will not be served or they have to take their order to go because their color isn't allowed to buy or be in the store? The know if they dare to not step aside and allow a white to go before them in the line they stand a good chance of at the very least being beaten and maybe castrated? They are routinely addressed as "boy" or worse? Do you teach them to NEVER look a white in the eyes because doing such could lead to them being lynched?

You might see bigotry but I really don't think you see what the old generation of blacks would call real racism. 

I have lived by King's dream just about all my life but I'll tell you right now I first judge people based on their looks then its up to them to use their character to prove me right or wrong. Why? Because people tend to act the way they look and if you ignore that you can very easily wind up dead.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

haypoint said:


> At the far, far other end of the scale are the people that wear their shoes unlaced, baggy pants, poor posture, holes in their nose, eye brow and tongue or tattoos on their neck or face that don't understand how unemployable that makes them.


The people around here who do that are almost always white.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

watcher said:


> You might see bigotry but I really don't think you see what the old generation of blacks would call real racism.


ok, I have tried to stay out of this thread (haven't even read all the posts) but as a white employer in a 70%+ black community I guess I should speak up.

I work at a commisioned retail store with lots of social interactions. Racism IS live and well (and seems like its getting worse the past 4 years). It's happening with whites vs black and blacks vs whites. 

Although it seems like only the white vs black racism gets attention. In my opinion that is usually more subtle and is more hidden but it happens, maybe more sub concsiously more than anything. They just usually will say thanks we'll think about it and leave.

The black vs white racism does have many subtle instances but there are some that don't mind not hiding it. They will get the information from the white salesperson and go over to a black salesperson and say i want this and i dont want that white guy getting the commission for it. We usually will split the commission between the 2 if its that blatent but once a customer once found out and called up and ripped my head off (the conversation wasn't appropriate for posting here) then realized I was white so they called to the corporate office complaining that the white guy got credit for the sale, and the whole time the reason for him not earning the commission was because he's white.(didn't even make up another excuse)

I once took this customer, could tell she was a trouble maker as soon as she walked in. (didn't realize she was racist at first). She asked about a few little things then walked over to the appliances and started ranting quite loudly,"Why are all the appliances white?" I want a black washer and dryer!! I showed her some colored ones and she decided on the red one because it was the color of the liberation flag. She then walks over to my black cashier and tells her she doesnt want me ringing her up and getting credit for the sale. The cashier said,"Then who do you think should get credit for the sale?" She said, "The darkest skinned black guy that works here". One of the other black managers walks over and asks her if there is a problem. She said, yea, I dont want this white guy getting credit for this sale.(in not such nice words) He pulled me aside and was gonna kick her out of the store because she was getting loud and beligerant but we sold it to her anyways.

Still don't know why I'm so tolerant with people but I just hope that if some KKK member would do something similar it wouldn't be held against them. Everyone has their own beliefs and have the right to think and say
whatever they want. I'm not saying either side is right but its there. 


Yes, black unemployment is high. Do I end up hiring mainly blacks, yep. Are the majority of them the most worthless employees i have ever had? yep. Yes I have had worthless whites and hispanics working for me but I do have to say the blacks take the cake. Although some of my best workers are also black, so of course its not all of them. In my opinion the biggest obstacle for blacks is common sense and motivation. I sure get alot of applications, biggest reason for wanting to work for our company, Because this or that welfare requires me to apply to so many jobs per week. As soon as I get that answer My response is, Thanks for coming in, We'll call you if your picked....lol


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

watcher said:


> They have been beaten and had no legal recourse because no law enforcement agency would help because of their color? They have been told they will not be served or they have to take their order to go because their color isn't allowed to buy or be in the store? The know if they dare to not step aside and allow a white to go before them in the line they stand a good chance of at the very least being beaten and maybe castrated? They are routinely addressed as "boy" or worse? Do you teach them to NEVER look a white in the eyes because doing such could lead to them being lynched?
> 
> You might see bigotry but I really don't think you see what the old generation of blacks would call real racism.
> 
> I have lived by King's dream just about all my life but I'll tell you right now I first judge people based on their looks then its up to them to use their character to prove me right or wrong. Why? Because people tend to act the way they look and if you ignore that you can very easily wind up dead.


I have sat in a diner with my DS and his closest friends and watched everyone get served except for us. After everyone was served the staff went around cleaning up and ignoring us. When other customers came in they were served immediately. So yeah, I'd call that racism.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Sonshine said:


> I have sat in a diner with my DS and his closest friends and watched everyone get served except for us. After everyone was served the staff went around cleaning up and ignoring us. When other customers came in they were served immediately. So yeah, I'd call that racism.


I've had the same exact thing happen to my family and we're all blue-eyed blondes.

Now I'm not arguing that racism wasn't behind the way you were treated (this wasn't @ Fuddruckers, was it?), I'm merely pointing out that there _are_ other possible explanations for the way you were treated. In our case, my GS was having a bad day and refused to give his order to the waitress.....and apparently she took offense. Either that, or she just didn't like our looks. We eventually got up and walked out. :shrug:


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

Txsteader said:


> I've had the same exact thing happen to my family and we're all blue-eyed blondes.
> 
> Now I'm not arguing that racism wasn't behind the way you were treated (this wasn't @ Fuddruckers, was it?), I'm merely pointing out that there _are_ other possible explanations for the way you were treated. In our case, my GS was having a bad day and refused to give his order to the waitress.....and apparently she took offense. Either that, or she just didn't like our looks. We eventually got up and walked out. :shrug:


Been there done that. Eating out as a family can be entertaining, since it can look like a meeting at the UN. So when we left we decided to flip a coin as to which race amongst us should be insulted. :banana:


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I was talking about this thread to a friend of mine last night. She's a white woman who married a black man, and they have several children together. Her DH grew up in a very black inner-city area... but he joined the Navy at 18 and then went to college and got his degree, and now works as a civilian on an Air Force Base. He was the only one in his family to choose to not go on SSI/Welfare and live in the ghetto where he was raised. And I'll mention that he's in his late 50's now, so this was a good long while ago that he was able to do all this.

She told me about the first time her DH took her home to meet his family. They stopped to get gas, my friend ran in to grab a soda, and the black cashier refused to even look at her - she couldn't get it rung up. Her DH came in to see what was taking her so long, and the cashier happily rang the soda up for him.

Then they went to the grocery store to pick up some things to bring with them to his family's house.... her DH met someone he grew up with in the parking lot and got to chatting, so my friend decided to go ahead inside and start shopping. Except a guy was standing outside the store smoking, and he physically got in her way and blocked her ability to enter the store. She was polite, said "excuse me" and all that, and was completely 100% ignored.... until her DH caught up with her, jerked his finger in her direction and said "she's mine", then the man stepped aside so she could enter.

She and her DH took his family out to dinner at a local place, waitress wouldn't take her order. Her DH had to order for her, and direct all requests to the waitress for her because the waitress wouldn't even look at her. And it wasn't a male/female thing either, because all the other (black) females at the table were laughing and joking and ordering just fine with the waitress - it was clearly because my friend was white.

She told me a bunch of other stories about the trips she has taken to that city since they got married to visit her DH's family, and they all had the same basic outline: she was refused service/ignored because of the color of her skin. 

If a black guy goes into Dennys and doesn't get served by the white wait staff, it's national news. But I guess if a white woman goes into a black neighborhood and is repeatedly denied service, it's just another day in the 'hood 

I've also personally worked with too many people to count who did a crappy job, blatently disrespected our superiors, did a fraction of the work they were supposed to do, etc who were "fire-proof" because as soon as a superior (EVEN a black one) pulled them aside to call them to task they threatened to call the media and an attorney and sue for racial discrimination. My employers were afraid to fire them because - even though they had documentation that the black employee's work was sub-par, they didn't want the negative press that comes with a black former employee screaming "they're racist!". 

And (getting back on topic) you wonder why employers who have gone thru that enough times are reluctant to hire more black employees? Right or wrong, if a number of employees of ANY skin color get the job and then refuse to do the work they're being paid to do, and then constantly threaten media/legal action if they get called out on their laziness, what motive would hiring managers have to hire more of them? It destroys the morale of the employees who ARE working and who have to pick up the slack of their non-working counterparts, often for the same rate of pay or less (because if you don't give the black employee a raise for not doing any work, that's racist too )

So does racism exist? Yes, I believe it does. But it also happens on both ends of the color spectrum.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> I have sat in a diner with my DS and his closest friends and watched everyone get served except for us. After everyone was served the staff went around cleaning up and ignoring us. When other customers came in they were served immediately. So yeah, I'd call that racism.


That's bigotry. I've seen the same thing happen to a group of WHITE guys. Would you call that racism? What was the reason in this case? They all were and looked like bikers and the restaurant didn't want "their kind" to think it was a good place to eat. It was a shock when the 'gang' informed them they were members of a Christian outreach group.

I had a deacon from my old church tell me he was stopped at the door of a business and told "his kind" was not welcome there. FYI, he's 6' 2" heavy set wears his long beard in two braids, his hair in a ponytail and wears what most people would call 'biker clothes'. Racism or bigotry?


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

And I have to say at this point in time, in the economy, the biggest competition to urban black workers for jobs are Hispanics (at least here in Chi), not white people.

Hispanic workers as a whole come to work on time, are not too good for any hard work, will work for a pittance wage, and will cheerfully take any racist/bigoted treatment from coworkers or bosses. There are reasons Hispanics put up with poor workplace treatment, with citizenship issues high on the list, but the fact remains that they are the black workers stiffest competition in most urban workplaces.

Not saying it is right or OK, just saying at least in my urban area, that is a huge factor.

The urban black population is marginalized by history, and have become comfortable living on the menu of government benefits available to them. Many Hispanic families (here, I mean here where I live) also avail themselves of government benefits, but not in place of work. In addition to.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

Unemployment is unemployment. Black or White makes no difference. Eliminate the "compensation" and the unemployment will go away right now.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

edcopp said:


> Unemployment is unemployment. Black or White makes no difference. Eliminate the "compensation" and the unemployment will go away right now.


Because people are unemployed because they are lazy?


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

I can tell you that from my experience, people on unemployment do not look for a job until their checks run out. Then all of a sudden whatever they can find is suitable.

My husband was in union construction for 20+ years. I have heard my fill of "I'm not gonna work for THAT wage, or in THAT industry, or I won't MOVE for work, etc etc." When people can stay on unemployment for upwards of 3+ years with no real requirement to find work, why should they? What they get from UC is the same as if they took that lower paying job, and if they are unemployed they have all the time they need to do cash jobs on the side.

People need to stop pretending that even unemployment compensation doesn't become a lifestyle, just like welfare does.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

katheh said:


> I can tell you that from my experience, people on unemployment do not look for a job until their checks run out. Then all of a sudden whatever they can find is suitable.
> 
> My husband was in union construction for 20+ years. I have heard my fill of "I'm not gonna work for THAT wage, or in THAT industry, or I won't MOVE for work, etc etc." When people can stay on unemployment for upwards of 3+ years with no real requirement to find work, why should they? What they get from UC is the same as if they took that lower paying job, and if they are unemployed they have all the time they need to do cash jobs on the side.
> 
> People need to stop pretending that even unemployment compensation doesn't become a lifestyle, just like welfare does.


I hear a lot of "my unemployment benefits pay more than that job would, so I'm not going to apply for it... I'll stay on unemployment until it runs out or I find a job that pays more than UE pays." I hear it from people of all races. And really, why would you "quit" a paycheck that you get to sit on your butt and do nothing for to take a job that requires you to actually work for lower wages? 

IMHO unemployment should be available for VERY short term use only.


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## katheh (Jul 21, 2012)

I wanted to clarify that I didn't hear that unemployment blunderbuss from my husband (we started a business when it was clear his trade wasn't going to bounce back), it was from dozens (probably closer to 100) of his fellow co-workers. It's why he stopped going to union meetings pretty early on in the process.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Racism is an easy path for all people. It's so much easier to say to yourself "This person treats me badly because I am (fill-in here)" than it is to say to yourself "Boy I can't keep my blasted mouth shut." It's easier to not deal with another's racism by refusing to associate with other races. It's easier to blame another race about everything rather than even sort out responsibilities or personalities or ,heaven forbid, self-examination.
I too have been subject to black racism- it is as natural for black people as it is for white people. In fact my early delusions of about "equality" have changed to the firm conviction that that most people define "equality" as the right to screw over other races to the exact extent you feel you have been screwed over. To wring every bit of pain out of another as you can as a matter of right.
There is one difference between black racism and white racism- until less that 40 years ago, in many places, a white racist could murder black people with impunity. The white dominated institutions would not lift a finger to protect blacks and would often be used as method to inflict additional harm. That is a difficult history to overcome. 
But without it being overcome by those who were the victims of it, not one lick of peace can be had. And how can they overcome their hates until white people can keep from blaming bad behavior on race? 
So to say to a black person "You are a racist of the worse kind" seem reasonable to me. It would help if another black person would speak up about it when it happens.
But as a white person having heard white racism, it took me awhile to even be able to look that person straight on and say "I do not want to hear that from anyone." 
Darn we could use some examples of how to deal with racism in a useful manner- not the liberal la la land, kumbaya lectures that are useless.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Racism does exist on both sides of the fence. If you were to sift through my prior posts on race relations over the past couple of years, you'd find that I've said it repeatedly. I do call out racism when I see it in real life and I don't always assume that every adverse action is the result of racism. As a matter of fact, I tend to look at racism as the last possible reason. I'd much rather think that someone is treating me badly because they don't like ME as a person, rather than that they just don't like the color of my skin.

This forum is one place where I don't always call out racism. There are some topics that are generally so one-sided, that I opt to take the high road and turn them into teachable moments instead. There are a lot of people here that seem to be incapable of stepping into another person's shoes or feeling empathy for their life experiences. Some will even minimize those experiences.

My life has been a breeze compared to many people in minority or impoverished communities. That doesn't give me a pass to say that "I got mine, so they need to get theirs." Not everyone has had the same advantages and telling them to just figure it out doesn't work. Most religions preach that we should help others. 

In the case of the 18 year old that is part of the youth music program... His parents died in a car crash a few years ago, so he has no family support and didn't want to ask his aunt to help because he knew that she didn't have any money. Our music program became aware of the situation and lent him a decent instrument to use. He was already doing everything that he was supposed to do: His high school grades were high enough to get accepted into the college. He auditioned and was accepted into the music school. (Music majors have to get accepted into college TWICE!) He was earning good grades in college and attending all of his classes. He was already doing work study to cover expenses and practicing his instruments for 4 hours each day (because that is what is required for a music major). He just didn't have a way of affording a tuxedo. Regardless of his skill on his instruments, he would have been kicked out of the music program. Is that really the way that it should have gone? I don't think so.

Our program is sponsored by private foundations, individuals and lots of music companies that provide us with money, instruments, supplies, music scores and a myriad of other things to build successful musicians. The thought process is that a professionally trained musician is armed with a pathway out of poverty. Most music teachers start out earning around $50k and have the summers and weekends off. They can also earn money from doing gigs like weddings, etc...

It is extremely difficult for a poor child to become a college music major because the school music programs are not really designed to turn out musicians. In order to gain entrance to a college music program, a student will need private lessons, not school district ones, and they are often expensive. The majority of the kids that we work with are not poor. Most are lower middle class and many of them need the support of private lessons and the experience of working with top musical students to raise the bar on their own performance ability. Their parents cannot afford the full cost of the lessons, so they pay a sliding fee. I've been involved in the program since 2001 or so and in that time, we've graduated a lot of music teachers, performers and technicians. One program graduate is actually a world-famous saxophonist in his own right and his songs have hit the #1 slot on the Billboard Jazz Chart. Though his participation in the program predates my involvement, he always acknowledges our organization and came back to perform a few free concerts in our city a couple of years ago.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Martianchick, I gotta agree with you on one thing - you do take the high road when some of the stuff you see here, it would have to be be very easy to just react. You always make a reasoned and well articulated case for your position. Even if I don't always agree with you, I am glad to have your participation and perspective.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

My life has been a breeze compared to many people in minority or impoverished communities. That doesn't give me a pass to say that "I got mine said:


> My remarks about self-sufficiency being the key to success should not have been interpreted as "I got mine, so they need to get theirs." That was a lot of negative assumption far beyond what I actually said, beside assuming it came from a place of advantage.
> 
> What I said was that the practice of thinking through the way to success will lead to the confidence to do it again and again and again. And that will carry a person farther than anything else throughout their own life. They will know they can overcome when faced with a new obstacle because they will have done it many times, starting small and getting getting better at it with each success.
> 
> ...


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Because people are unemployed because they are lazy?


Not always of course, but alot of the time, yes.
Not as much lazy as not willing to do whatever it will take to get a job.

If anyone needs a job they could pack up their bags and come to Baltimore. I'm hiring along with just about every other business in my neighborhood. I came here from Ohio for employment because there were no jobs available out there when i left, why can't others?

WARNING: It's not cheap or easy living here.

P.S.: And no I'm not looking for everyones personal excuses, I've heard em all before.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Racism does exist on both sides of the fence.


I didn't have a clue until I went to work in a Native American community, where whites were a (largely despised) minority and prejudice against them was rampant.

It made for a pretty long day, sometimes. 

Thing was, at the end of the day, I could escape back into the larger world, where I was a member of the majority and entitled to the resulting privileges and benefits. 

Black people (and other racial minorities) can't really do that.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

willow_girl said:


> I didn't have a clue until I went to work in a Native American community, where whites were a (largely despised) minority and prejudice against them was rampant.
> 
> It made for a pretty long day, sometimes.
> 
> ...


IMHO yes we can, I am of Mexican descent and have faced racism from other minorities including my own. I escape by being happy in who I am, not allowing someone else's insecurities affect me. Racism is the problem of the person who espouses it.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> Thing was, at the end of the day, I could escape back into the larger world, where I was a member of the majority and entitled to the resulting privileges and benefits.
> 
> Black people (and other racial minorities) can't really do that.


People do make a good effort at doing just that- racially divided neighborhoods happen no matter what laws or efforts exist in promoting "diversity."

It is easier to deal with your neighbors if you can safely assume they won't treat you badly because of race. And the easiest way of insuring that is to form unified front in keeping out "the others."

So is there a solution?


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Marian Chick- This thread has had my head spinning. But I wanted to say that I do not minimize the value of helping people along, especially young people. It is a generous and useful thing.
I am a believer in the deepest way of the value of work and effort in achieving a good life. It seems to me that people who develop confidence in their own abilities are happier in a huge way- they find the balance between their own efforts and their own wants. If the effort to satisfy the want gets burdensome, the want is let go.
People who learn to demand others provide for them are never satisfied because someone else will always have more. If no effort is spent to get a want fulfilled, then they never feel effort as a limit on want. They simply feel deprived.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Txsteader said:


> I've had the same exact thing happen to my family and we're all blue-eyed blondes.
> 
> Now I'm not arguing that racism wasn't behind the way you were treated (this wasn't @ Fuddruckers, was it?), I'm merely pointing out that there _are_ other possible explanations for the way you were treated. In our case, my GS was having a bad day and refused to give his order to the waitress.....and apparently she took offense. Either that, or she just didn't like our looks. We eventually got up and walked out. :shrug:


It was a Waffle House, and the boys were behaving like perfect little gentlemen. We ended up going to another Waffle House not far from our house and I told them what happened. Come to find out that we weren't the only family of color that had been treated that way there. I've had other experiences similar. I don't think people realize how prevalent it really is unless they are either black, or are raising a child that is.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

bluemoonluck said:


> I was talking about this thread to a friend of mine last night. She's a white woman who married a black man, and they have several children together. Her DH grew up in a very black inner-city area... but he joined the Navy at 18 and then went to college and got his degree, and now works as a civilian on an Air Force Base. He was the only one in his family to choose to not go on SSI/Welfare and live in the ghetto where he was raised. And I'll mention that he's in his late 50's now, so this was a good long while ago that he was able to do all this.
> 
> She told me about the first time her DH took her home to meet his family. They stopped to get gas, my friend ran in to grab a soda, and the black cashier refused to even look at her - she couldn't get it rung up. Her DH came in to see what was taking her so long, and the cashier happily rang the soda up for him.
> 
> ...


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

watcher said:


> That's bigotry. I've seen the same thing happen to a group of WHITE guys. Would you call that racism? What was the reason in this case? They all were and looked like bikers and the restaurant didn't want "their kind" to think it was a good place to eat. It was a shock when the 'gang' informed them they were members of a Christian outreach group.
> 
> I had a deacon from my old church tell me he was stopped at the door of a business and told "his kind" was not welcome there. FYI, he's 6' 2" heavy set wears his long beard in two braids, his hair in a ponytail and wears what most people would call 'biker clothes'. Racism or bigotry?


When a person is being denied due to race, I call that racism.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

where I want to said:


> Marian Chick- This thread has had my head spinning. But I wanted to say that I do not minimize the value of helping people along, especially young people. It is a generous and useful thing.
> I am a believer in the deepest way of the value of work and effort in achieving a good life. It seems to me that people who develop confidence in their own abilities are happier in a huge way- they find the balance between their own efforts and their own wants. If the effort to satisfy the want gets burdensome, the want is let go.
> People who learn to demand others provide for them are never satisfied because someone else will always have more. If no effort is spent to get a want fulfilled, then they never feel effort as a limit on want. They simply feel deprived.


One of the things about the programs that I am affiliated with is that they all share a common theme: They seek not only to give a helping hand but to instill the value of helping others. The kids that are enrolled in the music program perform for the community at various venues like nursing homes, community events and the VA Medical Center. We charge a nominal fee if someone wants one of our combos to play for a private event and give the kids a few moments to advocate for the program in their own words. This gives them experience with public speaking and they all have a 30 second elevator speech that is ready at a moment's notice!

We want them to know that they have an obligation to provide something in return for the things that the program provides to them. While still in college, many of the students come back to volunteer and play with the younger kids. We try to provide them with opportunities to earn money as camp counselors and instrumental teachers at the summer music camp that we host at one of the local college campuses. We've found that it helps them to prepare for their turn as school music teachers.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

where I want to said:


> Racism is an easy path for all people. It's so much easier to say to yourself "This person treats me badly because I am (fill-in here)" than it is to say to yourself "Boy I can't keep my blasted mouth shut." It's easier to not deal with another's racism by refusing to associate with other races. It's easier to blame another race about everything rather than even sort out responsibilities or personalities or ,heaven forbid, self-examination.
> I too have been subject to black racism- it is as natural for black people as it is for white people. In fact my early delusions of about "equality" have changed to the firm conviction that that most people define "equality" as the right to screw over other races to the exact extent you feel you have been screwed over. To wring every bit of pain out of another as you can as a matter of right.
> There is one difference between black racism and white racism- until less that 40 years ago, in many places, a white racist could murder black people with impunity. The white dominated institutions would not lift a finger to protect blacks and would often be used as method to inflict additional harm. That is a difficult history to overcome.
> But without it being overcome by those who were the victims of it, not one lick of peace can be had. And how can they overcome their hates until white people can keep from blaming bad behavior on race?
> ...


 
Number one, I didn't open my mouth, just sat there waiting to be served. When it became obvious we weren't going to be served, I got up and left. Number two, I'm not black, but my DS is biracial and his friends were black. There is no other reason that I can think of that would explain why we were denied service.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Sonshine said:


> I realize it happens on both ends of the spectrum, but sure seems to me it's more prevalent on one side.


 It stands to reason that if you live in a primarily white neighborhood with a black/biracial child, you will primarily see see white racism aimed at blacks. But now how often have you - without your children, just yourself - gone into a primarily black neighborhood where nobody knew you and tried to get service? It appears one-sided to you because you're only approaching it from one side. And I'm not saying that makes it less wrong - any racism is IMO wrong, no matter what side it comes from.

I have an adopted DD who is from India but she is often mistaken for Black/biracial. IME here in Virginia, it's not such a big deal anymore to see biracial kids or mixed race couples. But even when we lived in Utah - which is very white - we encountered very little racism. The worst was that some kids on the playground at her school were making fun of her for being black, but the playground monitors put a quick stop to that and made the bullies apologize, and it never happened again. 

It was rather funny, however, when I had to borrow my friend's DH and his truck to haul some things from the store to my house, and the staff at Lowes thought he was DD's bio father because he's black. But they didn't give us any hassle over it :shrug:. They asked my other DD (who is my bio child and, like me, very white) to help her "Stepfather" - referring to my friend's DH.... and then they told my adopted DD "here, go give this to your Daddy" and handed her the invoice. The girls were confused, but certainly not insulted in any way.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> Number one, I didn't open my mouth, just sat there waiting to be served. When it became obvious we weren't going to be served, I got up and left. Number two, I'm not black, but my DS is biracial and his friends were black. There is no other reason that I can think of that would explain why we were denied service.


Well the first problem I see is, you went to Waffle House, their service is horrible!!!

I still wouldn't be 100% sure you weren't served because of racism. It seems you weren't served because of confusion/laziness. Maybe the waitress assigned to your table was out back smoking, on the toilet, or they just didnt see you. Now if they woulda come up to your table and said, "We don't serve your kind" or something like that, then yes it would be racism.

I love when people always jump to conclusions that its race, we joke about it at work but when it's blatent (like examples i've given previously) then you can call racism.

As to the racism is one sided comment. You may think it happens more with one side or the other but more than likely its you jumping to conclusions. In general the racism I see against blacks is more subtle and nonchalant. Where the racism against whites is very blatent.


Sonshine said:


> I realize it happens on both ends of the spectrum, but sure seems to me it's more prevalent on one side.


Wanna talk about racism being blatent? Why is the NAACP embraced while the KKK is hated? 
Sure I don't agree with KKK's values but I don't agree with NAACP's values either, they both promote racism.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Sonshine said:


> Number one, I didn't open my mouth, just sat there waiting to be served. When it became obvious we weren't going to be served, I got up and left. Number two, I'm not black, but my DS is biracial and his friends were black. There is no other reason that I can think of that would explain why we were denied service.


Anything I said wasn't directed at your post- I had not even read it when I posted what you quoted.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

blooba said:


> Wanna talk about racism being blatent? Why is the NAACP embraced while the KKK is hated?
> 
> Sure I don't agree with KKK's values but I don't agree with NAACP's values either, they both promote racism.


Don't forget: 

Black Entertainment Television (BET)
Ms. Black America
Ms. Black USA
Essence Magazine (the Black Woman's guide to what's hot now!)
Ebonly Magazine
Black Men Magazine
Black Enterprise Magazine
JET Magazine
Sister to Sister Magazine
Today's Black Woman Magazine

Not to mention numerous "Blacks Only" fraternities/sororities, scholarships and grants for "Blacks Only", plus many colleges have a "Blacks Only" group of some kind or another that is openly advertized :shrug:. 

This kind of stuff does just as much damage as "whites only" water fountains IMHO. It certainly encourages people to be judged by the color of their skin and NOT the content of their character


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

bluemoonluck said:


> Don't forget:
> 
> Black Entertainment Television (BET)
> Ms. Black America
> ...


Racism thrives today in America....


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

bluemoonluck said:


> Don't forget:
> 
> Black Entertainment Television (BET)
> Ms. Black America
> ...


Many of these things sprang into existance because blacks were excluded, sometimes de facto, frequently by rule. Many of these were the only place a black person could see a black face. They will continue until challenged by changing circumstances.

The problem I really have are the cries of racism if an ad campaign or movie or magazine, etc is not "diverse" enough, ie hasn't enough black people. All white is assumed racist.

It's hard to reconcile such conflicting ideas.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

where I want to said:


> Many of these things sprang into existance because blacks were excluded, sometimes de facto, frequently by rule. Many of these were the only place a black person could see a black face. They will continue until challenged by changing circumstances.
> 
> The problem I really have are the cries of racism if an ad campaign or movie or magazine, etc is not "diverse" enough, ie hasn't enough black people. All white is assumed racist.
> 
> It's hard to reconcile such conflicting ideas.


I agree 100% with the reasons why these organizations and companies were formed. However, most of them are no longer black only or black owned. 

BET is owned by Viacom. Black sororities and fraternities admit students of any nationality. Black colleges accept students of any nationality and the United ***** College Fund grants scholarships to students regardless of ethnicity.

The African-American themed magazines that were mentioned can be subscribed to by any person, of any ethnicity. The topics covered by the magazines are geared toward topics relating to black health, culture, style, beauty, etc... that are often not covered by other mainstream publications. As an example, most mainstream publications don't address diseases like Sickle Cell Anemia, which can lead to death. A similar Jewish magazine might cover Tay Sachs disease because it is a health issue that mainly affects Jewish people. 

Black people also have very different hair and skin types that are often not even mentioned by mainstream magazines. We use relaxers and rely more on things like braids, weaves, locks and a myriad of things that are not covered in Women's World magazine. Our skin often tends to be dry, so we go through a lot of lotion and (generally) not the brands that are utilized by white people. The same is true of the shampoos and conditioners that we use.

As for the pageants mentioned... They were started because there were no opportunities for black women to compete in the Miss America Pageant for a long time. While the white pageants are often enterprises owned by folks like Donald Trump, their black counterparts are usually nonprofit organizations that sponsor community service opportunities, youth programming and scholarships. They are also open to anyone, regardless of color! 

http://www.missblackusa.org/eligibility.html


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

TheMartianChick said:


> I agree 100% with the reasons why these organizations and companies were formed. However, most of them are no longer black only or black owned.
> 
> BET is owned by Viacom. Black sororities and fraternities admit students of any nationality. Black colleges accept students of any nationality and the United ***** College Fund grants scholarships to students regardless of ethnicity.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree entirely, but maybe more than a little. There is intentional separation by all and these create an image in the mind of some as bias.

It appears to me that the races are not coming closer together, but creating more separation, and its basis seems to be economic, exactly along the lines of the OP.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

The problem is there are such organization with that name.
The question is what would happen if there were organizations where the word black was changed to white.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

pancho said:


> The problem is there are such organization with that name.
> The question is what would happen if there were organizations where the word black was changed to white.


Organizations managed to discriminate without actually referencing the color. Black organizations had to reference the color to ensure that we knew that we were actually included!


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

TheMartianChick said:


> Black colleges accept students of any nationality and the United ***** College Fund grants scholarships to students regardless of ethnicity.


Might wanna do some research. 


> Q. Does UNCF help only African Americans?
> A. Not at all. UNCFâs member colleges and universities admit students without
> reference to race or ethnicity. UNCFâs largest scholarship program, the Gates
> Millennium Scholars Program, supports Hispanic American, Asian/Pacific American
> and Native American students as well as African Americans.


http://www.uncf.org/sites/aeos/documents/uncf/UNCFFAQs112112.pdf

^Umm, did I miss caucasian? 

From The (Bill) Gates Millennium Scholars Program application.


> Race/Ethnicity - *REQUIRED* (YOU MAY CHECK ONLY ONE, EVEN IF YOU IDENTIFY WITH MORE THAN ONE OF THESE GROUPS. IF CHECKING AMERICAN INDIAN/ALASKA NATIVE,ASIAN PACIFIC ISLANDER AMERICAN, OR HISPANIC AMERICAN, ALSO IDENTIFY A TRIBE OR ETHNIC SUBGROUP IN THE BOXES PROVIDED.)


Looks like a checkmark in the "White" box will disqualify you and is required.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

TheMartianChick said:


> Organizations managed to discriminate without actually referencing the color. Black organizations had to reference the color to ensure that we knew that we were actually included!


ok, well since you are "included" in BET.
You'd better not change the channel.....lol ......see how ridiculous this claim is these days?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> When a person is being denied due to race, I call that racism.


When someone is denied due to looking like a "biker" is that bikism?

Racism is the view/feeling that one race is "better" than another. A racist usually sees one or more races as sub-human. Because of this he feels there's nothing wrong with treating them as animals. 

Not wanting to deal with someone because of how they look is bigotry. 

Now I'm really going to start something. IMO, a business has the full right to serve or not serve anyone they wish for any reason they wish. Its called FREEDOM. Its a different story when it comes to the government, it should be completely color blind. But we all know it isn't.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

blooba said:


> Might wanna do some research.
> 
> http://www.uncf.org/sites/aeos/documents/uncf/UNCFFAQs112112.pdf
> 
> ...


 Believe me, I helped a white teen apply last year to Spelman and she also applied to UNCF. A checkmark in the "white" box does not disqualify anyone. UNCF manages many different college funds/scholarships:

http://www.uncf.org/sections/ForStudents/SS_Scholarships/scholarships.asp


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

bluemoonluck said:


> Don't forget:
> 
> Black Entertainment Television (BET)
> Ms. Black America
> ...


You didn't mention:

The Congresional Black cacaus.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

blooba said:


> ok, well since you are "included" in BET.
> You'd better not change the channel.....lol ......see how ridiculous this claim is these days?


Black Entertainment refers to the programming that is included on the channel. Although NBC, CBS and ABC don't call themselves White Entertainment Television, they really doesn't offer much in the way of programming that is of interest to the majority of minorities. Most tv shows on major networks feature white casts with one or two token minority characters. Those characters are usually devoid of all culture or they are stereotypes and caricatures.

People of any ethnicity are free to watch any of these channels, but the title of the channel often gives a clue as to the type of programming that will be found there. In addition to BET, there is also TV1 and Centric. Those are also channels that cater to black programming. In fact the name Centric refers to the terms ethnocentric and afrocentric.

For the record, I stopped watching BET long ago. I felt that it was degenerating into buffoonery long before it was purchased by Viacom. Since that time, it has only gotten worse.

My fondest memories of the old BET were of watching "black" news every evening to learn about the stories that the mainstream media neglected to report on. I also enjoyed the show Teen Summit where they discussed the issues of the day with high school kids. Since I am also an old movie buff, I enjoyed staying up late at night to see movies that I'd only heard my parents mention. Many of the black actors that played buffoons or servants on the big screen (like Stepn Fetchit) were serious actors in independent films with all black casts. It was amazing to see Edward G. Robinson-type films and romantic comedies with an all black cast. It was something that the mainstream media had no interest in televising.

It would have been nice if the regular networks showed an interest in televising some of these things, but since they didn't... I had to go to where I could find that type of programming.

Edited to add: In many ways, the internet serves that purpose for me now because I can research a number of topics about black history, black films, gain specific information about ethnic health issues, etc... However, this information should be available in multiple media formats and not just on the internet. Many of the movies are not available on dvd or blu-ray.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

blooba said:


> Well the first problem I see is, you went to Waffle House, their service is horrible!!!
> 
> I still wouldn't be 100% sure you weren't served because of racism. It seems you weren't served because of confusion/laziness. Maybe the waitress assigned to your table was out back smoking, on the toilet, or they just didnt see you. Now if they woulda come up to your table and said, "We don't serve your kind" or something like that, then yes it would be racism.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I've never seen the NAACP burning crosses in someone's yard. As for the first part of your post, since people who came in after us, and sat pretty close to us were served I don't think it's a case of them just not seeing us.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

bluemoonluck said:


> It stands to reason that if you live in a primarily white neighborhood with a black/biracial child, you will primarily see see white racism aimed at blacks. But now how often have you - without your children, just yourself - gone into a primarily black neighborhood where nobody knew you and tried to get service? It appears one-sided to you because you're only approaching it from one side. And I'm not saying that makes it less wrong - any racism is IMO wrong, no matter what side it comes from.
> 
> I have an adopted DD who is from India but she is often mistaken for Black/biracial. IME here in Virginia, it's not such a big deal anymore to see biracial kids or mixed race couples. But even when we lived in Utah - which is very white - we encountered very little racism. The worst was that some kids on the playground at her school were making fun of her for being black, but the playground monitors put a quick stop to that and made the bullies apologize, and it never happened again.
> 
> It was rather funny, however, when I had to borrow my friend's DH and his truck to haul some things from the store to my house, and the staff at Lowes thought he was DD's bio father because he's black. But they didn't give us any hassle over it :shrug:. They asked my other DD (who is my bio child and, like me, very white) to help her "Stepfather" - referring to my friend's DH.... and then they told my adopted DD "here, go give this to your Daddy" and handed her the invoice. The girls were confused, but certainly not insulted in any way.


 
I grew up in a black neighborhood and was never denied service. I now live in a mixed neighborhood, primarily military families.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

bluemoonluck said:


> It stands to reason that if you live in a primarily white neighborhood with a black/biracial child, you will primarily see see white racism aimed at blacks. But now how often have you - without your children, just yourself - gone into a primarily black neighborhood where nobody knew you and tried to get service? It appears one-sided to you because you're only approaching it from one side. And I'm not saying that makes it less wrong - any racism is IMO wrong, no matter what side it comes from.
> 
> I have an adopted DD who is from India but she is often mistaken for Black/biracial. IME here in Virginia, it's not such a big deal anymore to see biracial kids or mixed race couples. But even when we lived in Utah - which is very white - we encountered very little racism. The worst was that some kids on the playground at her school were making fun of her for being black, but the playground monitors put a quick stop to that and made the bullies apologize, and it never happened again.
> 
> It was rather funny, however, when I had to borrow my friend's DH and his truck to haul some things from the store to my house, and the staff at Lowes thought he was DD's bio father because he's black. But they didn't give us any hassle over it :shrug:. They asked my other DD (who is my bio child and, like me, very white) to help her "Stepfather" - referring to my friend's DH.... and then they told my adopted DD "here, go give this to your Daddy" and handed her the invoice. The girls were confused, but certainly not insulted in any way.


I grew up in a black neighborhood and was never denied service. We now live in a mixed neighborhood, primarily military families.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

where I want to said:


> Many of these things sprang into existance because blacks were excluded, sometimes de facto, frequently by rule. Many of these were the only place a black person could see a black face. They will continue until challenged by changing circumstances.
> 
> The problem I really have are the cries of racism if an ad campaign or movie or magazine, etc is not "diverse" enough, ie hasn't enough black people. All white is assumed racist.
> 
> It's hard to reconcile such conflicting ideas.


I agree 100%!


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

watcher said:


> When someone is denied due to looking like a "biker" is that bikism?
> 
> Racism is the view/feeling that one race is "better" than another. A racist usually sees one or more races as sub-human. Because of this he feels there's nothing wrong with treating them as animals.
> 
> ...


 
Bikers come in all different races. So the biker analogy doesn't fit with my understanding of racism, rather it fits with bigotry.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Bikers come in all different races. So the biker analogy doesn't fit with my understanding of racism, rather it fits with bigotry.


It fits because both are based on appearances. Every one is bias. We all like or are more comfortable with some people than others. And everyone of us make snap judgments based on how people look. The difference is how you deal with it. If you use common sense its a good thing, but when you go stupid it isn't.

I've told my history and anyone who knows me knows I'm a firm follower of King's dream (which IMO is dead today) but if I see a young black man dressed 'gansta' I'm going to assume he's a threat. If I see that same man dressed in a suit and tie the odds are I'm not going to see him that way. Well no more than any one else. Want to stay alive? Be professional, be polite but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Promoting racism is very profitable. Ask any politician, ask Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton, ask anyone in the media. Racism is big $$$$$$$$$


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

I am an American.

First and foremost.

If *ANYONE* thinks their 'situation' is more impotant than mine (we are all equal, correct?), nuke'em from orbit

I am an American of German, Norwegian, Polish and Scot/Irish descent.

But I am an *American* first


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

TheMartianChick said:


> Black Entertainment refers to the programming that is included on the channel. Although NBC, CBS and ABC don't call themselves White Entertainment Television, they really doesn't offer much in the way of programming that is of interest to the majority of minorities. Most tv shows on major networks feature white casts with one or two token minority characters. Those characters are usually devoid of all culture or they are stereotypes and caricatures.
> 
> People of any ethnicity are free to watch any of these channels, but the title of the channel often gives a clue as to the type of programming that will be found there. In addition to BET, there is also TV1 and Centric. Those are also channels that cater to black programming. In fact the name Centric refers to the terms ethnocentric and afrocentric.
> 
> ...


Turner Classic Movies often shows these old movies with all-black casts too. Just like with old all-white cast movies, they are of variable quality. Lately, they've been showing a lot of old Japanese silent films too. There's also a channel called "Starz In Black", but the qualification to get on there is a single black person in the cast.

VH-1 has, in recent months, transformed into almost all "reality" programming with young, beautiful black women behaving badly for the cameras.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

watcher said:


> When someone is denied due to looking like a "biker" is that bikism?
> 
> Racism is the view/feeling that one race is "better" than another. A racist usually sees one or more races as sub-human. Because of this he feels there's nothing wrong with treating them as animals.
> 
> ...


About the refusing buisness for any reason. You may feel that way and you may be right. Just remember actions have consequences. If I went into a place of buisness and was 
refused service for the way I looked, or my relegion or political affiliation or NRA stickers on my pickup cap, believe me you would pay for wasteing my time.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

bowdonkey said:


> About the refusing buisness for any reason. You may feel that way and you may be right. Just remember actions have consequences. If I went into a place of buisness and was
> refused service for the way I looked, or my relegion or political affiliation or NRA stickers on my pickup cap, believe me you would pay for wasteing my time.


A business owner has the right to serve or not serve whoever he wishes and a customer has the right o deal with whatever business he wants. That's called freedom.

Should I have the right to force you to sell your private property to me rather than someone else?


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

watcher said:


> A business owner has the right to serve or not serve whoever he wishes and a customer has the right o deal with whatever business he wants. That's called freedom.
> 
> Should I have the right to force you to sell your private property to me rather than someone else?


This is correct...I refuse business all the time for different reasons. Normally I price myself out of business but I've been known to not call back, hang up or plain ole refuse to do business with someone.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

bowdonkey said:


> About the refusing buisness for any reason. You may feel that way and you may be right. Just remember actions have consequences. If I went into a place of buisness and was
> refused service for the way I looked, or my relegion or political affiliation or NRA stickers on my pickup cap, believe me you would pay for wasteing my time.


I can refuse business for any reason or no reason, thats one reason to even own your own business.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

wannabechef said:


> This is correct...I refuse business all the time for different reasons. Normally I price myself out of business but I've been known to not call back, hang up or plain ole refuse to do business with someone.


And I have companies I will not deal with. But I don't expect the government to come in and force them to change to fit the way I think they should be because I believe in freedom.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

coolrunnin said:


> I can refuse business for any reason or no reason, thats one reason to even own your own business.


You can NOT. Hang a sign in your window announcing you will not serve any member of a federally protected race and see how long it is before you are standing before a judge.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

watcher said:


> You can NOT. Hang a sign in your window announcing you will not serve any member of a federally protected race and see how long it is before you are standing before a judge.


Hang a sign saying we will not serve blacks and you will be locked away for life. 

But hang a sign saying we will not serve whites(NAACP) and you get Federal Tax Dollars!!!


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

watcher said:


> A business owner has the right to serve or not serve whoever he wishes and a customer has the right o deal with whatever business he wants. That's called freedom.
> 
> Should I have the right to force you to sell your private property to me rather than someone else?


There's a difference if you're a registered buisness selling a good or service and advertising it as such vs me just selling private property. You better have good reason to deny service. Just because someone wears blue jeans into a chainsaw shop, as I did yesterday, is no reason to deny service. Expect repercussions in some form.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Why take the time trying to explain why a person is not wanted inside of your business? You don't really need a reason. Trying to explain will only cause problems. Simply tell them to remove themselves.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

bowdonkey said:


> There's a difference if you're a registered buisness selling a good or service and advertising it as such vs me just selling private property. You better have good reason to deny service. Just because someone wears blue jeans into a chainsaw shop, as I did yesterday, is no reason to deny service. Expect repercussions in some form.


Try selling your private property, your house, yourself but with a advertised limit of only married white people need to apply and see how well that goes over.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

pancho said:


> Why take the time trying to explain why a person is not wanted inside of your business? You don't really need a reason. Trying to explain will only cause problems. Simply tell them to remove themselves.


But once you 'from a pattern' you can bet you'll be in court.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

watcher said:


> Try selling your private property, your house, yourself but with a advertised limit of only married white people need to apply and see how well that goes over.


That's one reason you must be careful exercising your prejudices. Many years ago I had a employer whom was vehemently opposed to unions, to the point of being stupid. I could never understand why he would sell and install a home for someone who obviously worked for a union. Fully half of the homes we installed were for union employees from the twin cities. I guess the money's green. I always hoped he would have the guts to tell them to get lost and tell them why.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

thesedays said:


> Turner Classic Movies often shows these old movies with all-black casts too. Just like with old all-white cast movies, they are of variable quality. Lately, they've been showing a lot of old Japanese silent films too. There's also a channel called "Starz In Black", but the qualification to get on there is a single black person in the cast.
> 
> VH-1 has, in recent months, transformed into almost all "reality" programming with young, beautiful black women behaving badly for the cameras.


I am a big fan of TCM, but BET used to show black classic movies almost every night after hours. I used to set my vcr because I never could seem to stay awake past 11pm. TCM is a bit more sporadic with showing them. In fact, the show a lot of them during the month of February, but not as many during the rest of the year.

VH-1 is another channel that I haven't watched in recent years. UNreality tv makes me sick...especially when it pimps the extreme as the norm.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

bowdonkey said:


> That's one reason you must be careful exercising your prejudices. Many years ago I had a employer whom was vehemently opposed to unions, to the point of being stupid. I could never understand why he would sell and install a home for someone who obviously worked for a union. Fully half of the homes we installed were for union employees from the twin cities. I guess the money's green. I always hoped he would have the guts to tell them to get lost and tell them why.


He weighed his convictions against the money and the scales tipped in favor of the cash.


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

When my DH was a store Manager over a 1 year period he had 6 openings. Of the 5 he hired 3 Black applicants. After several days of work they each failed in their prospective times to call in or show up for work on 3 consecutive shifts which in the company policy was an indication of quitting. Each said the work was just too hard(this was simple point and shoot photography!) and that it was easier to do something else. When the district reshifted Managers the new Black one accused my DH of being racist because he had no black employees it gave him a nice feeling to show her his records, she wasn't happy. I found she had a real issue with 2 Managers in the district both were the typical WASP looking- one was my DH.She eventually got DH fired on a bogus charge, which is another story and why I never will ever donate money to any box store for charity


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Everyone has a story about one type of employee causing problems or another type not being hard workers. The truth of the matter is that the employee quality has nothing to do with ethnicity. It has to do with the work ethic or personality of the individual employee. I've had all sorts of employees of various ethnic backgrounds etc... The truth is that some employees just suck. 

Over the years, my very best employees were black or Hispanic. Their ethnicity isn't what made them good employees. They were just good! I'd like to believe that I'm a good hiring manager and a good team coach. Of course, it could just be that I was darn lucky that great folks accepted the job offers that were extended!

Don't get me wrong, I've had lousy employees. My two worst employees were both white women. One issued refunds in the names of people that we went to high school with as a way of stealing money from the register. (I didn't hire her!)

The other was hanging up on customers in a call center in an effort to improve her call stats. She wasn't someone that I hired, but I was charged with evaluating her job performance. It was a fluke that I caught on to what she was doing and spotted 3 consecutive calls that were less than 5 seconds each on a printout.

I've also been the token black employee that was brought into situations to ensure that there was no appearance of racial discrimination. I prefer working for more diverse organizations that have no need to resort to those tactics.

The call center was one of the most effective and productive workplaces that I've ever seen. We had over 300 employees and management consisted of 23 people. 3/4's of upper management was African American (Facility Manager, Senior Manager and HR Manager), about a third of middle management was African American and the rest were either white or Native American. About 70% of the management team consisted of female employees. The high percentage of female managers had a lot to do with the fact that (at that time) mostly women applied for call center positions.

When the facility first opened, there was only one black person in upper management. The regular employees were diverse, but not management. In two year's time, that changed to the demographics that I cited previously. 

There was some grumbling among some of the regular employees who felt that upper management was becoming some sort of Affirmative Action type of thing, but the truth was that these were the people that had the best qualifications for the jobs. We grew tired of everyone thinking that the jobs were an ethnic or sex-based freebie, so we worked harder to prove that we earned our jobs.

There are people of all shades that will work hard for a paycheck.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Just read an interesting story about the head of the Black Entertainment Television and black unemployment.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/bet...-tolerate-white-unemployment-14-or-15-percent


Here's some interesting quotes.

_Johnson said the challenge was to figure out why the unemployment rate for blacks has been so high, âand if that doesnât change, somebodyâs going to have to pay"_

_According to the poll Johnson commissioned, which was conducted by Zogby, 50 percent of African-Americans blame the âfailure of the education system for minorities/African-Americansâ for high unemployment among blacks, _
_
while 48 percent say the âlack of corporate commitment to hiring minorities/African-Americansâ is to blame for unemployment in the black community._
_
Twenty-five percent of respondents blame the lack of government policies for the high rate of black unemployment_

Notice anything? Its not *THEIR* fault. Its the schools, its the corporations *ITS THE GOVERNMENT!!!* If only _someone else_ would do something the problem would magically go away. Why oh why doesn't someone do something to make the problem go away?


If you want to see the poll here's the link

http://www.rljcompanies.com/phpages...s-Black-Opinions-in-the-Age-of-Obama_2013.pdf


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

watcher said:


> Just read an interesting story about the head of the Black Entertainment Television and black unemployment.
> 
> http://cnsnews.com/news/article/bet...-tolerate-white-unemployment-14-or-15-percent
> 
> ...


I just can't understand why employers do not want an uneducated person who can't pass a drug test and only comes to work occasionally and does nothing when they do come to work.


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

The black family that lives a couple doors down from my parents I occasionally see when I'm at my parents place. I know she has been unemployed for 3 or 4 years now, I had the opportunity to ask why she isn't working now that the economy is picking up. 

_Her reply was "Why should I" ....." If I went to work I'd get a couple hunderd a week befoe taxes"...... "Now I get $3000 a month, free healthcare and my kids go to schoo for free, why would I want to go back to work ???"_ 

I didn't reply to her answer and just walked away .......
Ohio Rusty ><>


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

watcher said:


> Just read an interesting story about the head of the Black Entertainment Television and black unemployment.
> 
> http://cnsnews.com/news/article/bet...-tolerate-white-unemployment-14-or-15-percent
> 
> ...


Not sure if this thought fits with the discussion on black unemployment, but through my extensive experience with Black felons, I discovered that few, if any, blame their actions on their imprisonment. When I asked a prisoner, "Why are you in prison?" I got an answer that started off with, " Because I got caught steeling a car, I got caught robing a store. I got caught burning a school" At first I didn't hear what they were saying. Eventually I heard that their incarceration was do to the actions of others, the police. They were all in prison for the actions of others. " They arrested me" "They caught me" " My lawyer did a crappy job", " The neighbors turned me in." Always the reason they were in prison was the actions of others. No one said, " I'm in prison because I was robbing stores." 
So, if you take that attitude and put it on employment, you soon see that the rest of society hasn't given them enough jobs, yet.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Ohio Rusty said:


> The black family that lives a couple doors down from my parents I occasionally see when I'm at my parents place. I know she has been unemployed for 3 or 4 years now, I had the opportunity to ask why she isn't working now that the economy is picking up.
> 
> _Her reply was "Why should I" ....." If I went to work I'd get a couple hunderd a week befoe taxes"...... "Now I get $3000 a month, free healthcare and my kids go to schoo for free, why would I want to go back to work ???"_
> 
> ...


To her credit, she did pay attention during math class!


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## siberian (Aug 23, 2011)

Geez, Shame that there are only black folks that wont work when they can make more with the system........let's not full are selves with this one.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

siberian said:


> Geez, Shame that there are only black folks that wont work when they can make more with the system........let's not full are selves with this one.


Right, but blacks are over represented in being unemployed as the overall population.

From:
http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2012/ted_20121010_data.htm

Overall unemployment in Sept 2012 was 7.8 for America. Black unemployment was 13.4.

And for all you minimum wager raising advocates, unemployment was almost 30% for the 6 to 19 age groups. That number is so high because employers can't justify higher wages for youngsters when they can get people with families and dependents to stand in long lines to work for them.


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## siberian (Aug 23, 2011)

Really think we need to look at economics rather than race.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

siberian said:


> Really think we need to look at economics rather than race.


Okay, lets. What do you see as the problem?

I see that since President Johnson declared the War on Poverty 50 years ago, we've spent countless billions (if not trillions) on education and health care in the poorer areas of the country, with very little return on those 'investments'. 

I also see that the greater portion of those federal monies have gone to pay for more agencies, bureaus, commissions and employees while only a small fraction has actually made it to the community level.......which has enough corruption to siphon off the majority of what's left.

Personally, I don't think money as the solution. Attitude is the problem, change of attitude is the solution.


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## siberian (Aug 23, 2011)

Yes sir, we have spent way too much money on creating a dysfunctional system. Money has been handed out for generations for those that don't need it, or at least could have bee asked to be productive to receive it. I think that most of the stories and situations dealing with folks from the inner city, and mor than likely , areas with a larger black population. I have and do know many folks that are black and are very hard workers. Ironically comments such as "You don't sound black", or "I wasn't talking about your family". Ghetto is Ghetto, a Thug is a Thug, the dress, the talk, the actions are the same for white and black in that environment.

p.s.,,,Txsteader, I agree with the attitude being a huge part of it. 

One 12th grade, black student that I know has been excepted at Ohio State, Case Western Reserve, and is being interviewed at Harvard ( in Physics). How ironic that a white adult would suggest to the aunt that he my be more comfortable at Tuskegee University.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Txsteader said:


> Okay, lets. What do you see as the problem?
> 
> I see that since President Johnson declared the War on Poverty 50 years ago, we've spent countless billions (if not trillions) on education and health care in the poorer areas of the country, with very little return on those 'investments'.
> 
> ...


Maybe it was a way for Johnson to funnel money to his and his cronies home states?


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

bowdonkey said:


> Maybe it was a way for Johnson to funnel money to his and his cronies home states?


Maybe. One thing is certain, it didn't make it to the ones it was intended to help. 

It's the perfect scam, if you think about it. Think of a heart-wrenching cause, pass legislation to fund it, make sure it fails by syphoning off the money, convince Congress and the public that the solution is more money. 

The problem is when, 50 years and billions of taxpayer dollars later, the situation is exactly the same as it was before. And Congress is still trying to convince the public that they just need more money.


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