# Raw land vs partially developed land



## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

We had primarily been looking at raw forested land that we would have to clear and develop ourselves. One of the main reasons is the location, the other is the price compared to land that has been at least partially cleared. The are we are looking at has electric and county water available, it is just a matter of clearing the land.

Due to my work background, I'm used to having to do cost justifications and project budgets so I'm a spreadsheet fiend. When I factor in how much it would cost to rent machinery or purchased a used mini excavator, then consider operating costs and consumables, the cost of raw land starts really going up. I only get 2 weeks vacation a year and work way too many weekends and 12 hour days instead of the 8 I'm supposed to work, so that becomes an issue.

Now we have expanded our search to include land that has or had a mobile home with services, cleared or partially cleared land, and even a piece of property that had a house burn to the ground. We really like the idea of clearing and shaping our property the way we want. Most of the developed acreage we have seen has all the trees cleared from the front of the property and the build site is totally exposed. My DW likes the idea of leaving a band of woods along the road access so the house and buildings are shielded from the road. As she pointed out, part of the reason for doing this is for privacy and being right up by the road isn't very private.

Lots of things to consider while we get the rest of our funding squared away. At least we aren't in a big rush and we can take the time to find the right place for us.

How did others on the board decide what kind of property to buy?


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Our basic story & experience... May help guide you on your decisions / planning.

Well, a few years back I started looking at various types of land within my budget... All Rural and no closer that 150 miles to major city was an ABSOLUTE MUST ! and my budget was pretty tight... First started looking at developed properties with a small house / cabin or old farm, that quickly came to an end because I did not want to be spending time fixing up a mess of a place filled with bodged repairs over a 1/2 century or more. Then started looking at lands that had Buildings, such as old barns or other farm buildings but without houses... Found a few which fit but then building dept's and regional codes kyboshed that... Change in direction was the key.... So looking into other previously unconsidered areas presented new options and possibilities... Converting an Old LOG Barn would have been acceptable (there are plenty around our area.... old logging country so..)

Well we crunched up a lot of numbers and spent many many hours driving through the country side looking at the various offerings - We found a few that fit with the basic plans for space, solar exposure and privacy, sop a little more digging into town/region codes and minimums (square footage etc) and that toasted all but 2.... We were getting Exasperated and highly stressed... The I thought I would just drive around and furtle down back roads ... FISBO'S (For Sale by Owner) properties appeared left & right... and they were interesting and I talked to one fellow who's property did not fit what we wanted BUT he mentioned he knew of a spot... I checked for it and could not find it... called him back and he gave more directions... and FOUND.... Signs had fallen but after finding the sign on the ground called... 30K asking but had been for sale for 7 years.... Got it for 12K CASH on the barrel and closed in 7 days !

*What we wanted (MUST)
*- Semi-wooded with mixed wood.
- Some open cleared area suitable for gardening & solar system... so good south exp.
- High Ground not subject to flooding or other
- PRIVACY ! No "next door neighbour" (closest is 10 minutes fast walk from driveway)
and we own 500' of bush land between !

The land itself is on a Granite Ridge with a lot of glacial deposit. That's an excellent source for building stone so good to have on hand... Never farmed or worked but grazed with cattle and forested about 100 years ago last time. The ridge is cut into natural tiers by the glaciers when they retreated... We cleared the brush out and all the junipers which were in the way.... The top tier (50x80) was designated for the cabin, that is separated from the next lower tier by scotch pines, the 2nd tier down (30x100 roughly) is clear of trees and is for the Gazebo and the apple trees that are on it (apples thanks to deer deposits). The last tier which is just above the road cut is just mixed bush with mostly Eastern White Cedar. All the soil is at least 12" of loam to dark loam over another foot of mixed sandy loam over clay... 6' down you start hitting granite. That varies where you are standing... there are 30-100 ton boulders in there too.

*Build Prep.... *
We were a bit afraid on this one.... BUT it all turned out great !
No Well or anything on the land.... Knew the closest neighbours had wells at 90 & 140 feet but we are much higher. 1st things first.... After all the brush hogging and determining how the land lay, we chose to work WITH IT as opposed to trying to force it into something else... SMART CHOICE ! Brought in a CAT DL-390 Excavator and proceeded to excavate the organics' from the "Cabin Building Pad" parking area where the 20' Sea Can was going and the driveway (500')... Averaged between 4-6' depth (partly due to the stones / rocks). Back filled with Pit Run and compacted with that huge excavator... heck they even laser level graded it ! All the organics were dumped onto the 2nd tier & garden area on the side and level out (not compacted) [boy I gotta tell ya that the soil / land IS healthy ! From newts to toads and all host & manner of good bugs - NOTHING like the farmland I grew up on !]

_The SHOCK - rather lack of.... All *the excavation*_, filling and compacting cost us less then 4K and that was 30 Full loads of Pit Run, 3 loads of fine gravel (build pad topping) and all the equipment. NB: No Basement as we built a Frost Protected Slab Foundation. They even trenched in a 3'wide by 70' long, 6' deep slot for me to run 2, 4" Insulated conduits from the Cabin Side to the Pump-Power house.. 1 for water piped & 1 for electrical. There would have been no way to do this by hand or small backhoe due to the glacial deposits. BONUS, All the big stones were set alongside the driveway creating a nice separation between the open areas and the closed off areas...

*Next was the Well.... *
After a LOT of research we decided that a Cable Pounder / Fracturing rig would suit us best as opposed to a Bore Drilling rig.... Fracturing the rock results in better & faster water flows at shallower depths as compared to bore drilling. Bracing for Price Shock we forged ahead... We hit 280 feet in 2-1/2 weeks of daily drilling. Did I mention we are on Banded Granite (Red, White & Green) which leads to sailor talk and burnt drill bits. LUCK AGAIN ! We hit good flow at 200 and it came out as a Sweet water well ! Tiny hardness and sweet - clean water.... 

*Well Costs:* Drilling cost was $35 per foot. 6" Casing cost $10 per foot, and required 2' above grade level and 6' into the bedrock with seals, 9' between the bedrock & grade... so 17' total for the casing. Seals, Certification & Environmental tags cost $1200. Not Bad as we would have had t go another 50' at least IF we had chosen Bore Drilling and at $40 a foot for that type.... We did good ! *NB* We are using a Grundfos SQ-5 Deep Well, 120v, soft-start pump which is low stress on solar system and provides LOT's of water pressure. It feeds a 40 Gallon Pressure Tank housed in the Pump House which in turn feeds to the cabin. Pump House & Power House (14'x7') are one building and heated in winter by a small propane heater and the solar batteries. It is Hyper Insulated and also has Radiant in the floor for future solar radiant heater. It also has a FPSF Slab with 8" perimeter & 4" core of reinforced fibred concrete.

Foundations: 
Well, many options but only one really good answer.... We decided on an FPSF Foundation with Radiant Heating installed into it, after laying down 4" of HD-XPS Foam (double over code) which I got from a commercial roofer and laying everything out with the PEX I got from http://www.radiantcompany.com/ and manifold, a local company came in and poured the fibre enforced slab for the cabin & powerhouse side... Slab is 24x20, with a perimeter of 8" thickness x 10" width (heel) and the centre is 4" thick across. All in with my foam, radiant pex was $4K - Note I have just under 400' of 7/8 pex in the floor in one control zone (due to size of house) complete with in-concrete sensor as I also have a wood stove for backup heat and do not want an air thermostat to control the radiant slab... an In-Slab Sensor is the proper way to determine accurate temps for this type of heating... Air Based thermostats will read hot air and allow the slab to differ greatly from real temps making it ineffective & inefficient. *This is the biggest design flaw that persists in poor radiant heating installations !*

Privacy:
Got it in Spades ! The cabin lurks behind large Spruce & Pine, then blocked by Cedars & Mixed down the next tier and then just mixed bush. With a Green Steel Roof and Cedar Siding (natural, no stain) you cannot see it.... The shade from the trees keep it cool in summer and sheltered from wind year round... which saves heating costs too... There is plenty of breeze from the open east side to keep air moving "politely" through the cleared tiers.... BTW: The Texas Cool Roof Design I decided on was SO WORTH IT you can't imagine ! On a +35C (95F) day it's 27C (80) inside and without a blink of power used ! Winter Heat Retention is also astounding... REF: http://www.houstoncoolmetalroofs.com/cool-roof-information/cool-roof-design-texas/ (simplest & best explained article, there are many others and more techy if you want to search them)

Bottom Lines:

 Don't be afraid to develop fresh virgin lands... It is not as scary as it could seem BUT do know what kind of land (surface & below) you are working with and plan accordingly. 
 Use local resources & knowledge but apply grains of salt. 
 Decide on IF you really "need" a basement... are you just gonna store junk in it and house a central heater & water tank ? Remember those are the most INEFFICENT & COSTLY to operate. Basements are expensive to build & site prep is exponentially more on account of drainage, water shielding etc....
 Larger Surface Footprint costs more per foot to build, heat & light... A 2nd floor = less footprint for foundation and infrastructure, easier to heat (density) and manage air... Also reduces building expense on materials and labour in most cases.
 Select your target areas that appeal to you and remember NOT to cast that into stone.... Would driving an extra 10/15 minutes beyond your envisioned threshold really be a show stopper IF it was the right property ?
 KEEP AN OPEN MIND ALWAYS ! Something that may seem unlikely at first might actually be the best solution in the end. You know, unexpected good surprises and karma has a funny way of dropping those on you. *LIKE HOW I FOUND MY PLACE - a Friend of a seller I talked to, as a By The Way ...  would have never been found at all otherwise !*
 ZONING & USE The Gotcha depending on locality... Always check to see what the land is registered as and what is permissible... I'm on Agri-Recreational, so I built a "Recreational Hunt Camp" which is pretty loose in terms of codes and minimum requirements on square footage... two counties south of here and that would not happen.... 

Lastly and most importantly for you...

 Decide on the MUST haves, Need to have, Like to Haves and last the "want" to haves.
 How much room do you need... bedrooms, etc... Total sq footage (be realistic)
 Do you want to repair other peoples Bodges & Boondoggles ? We all have nightmare stories of doing that !
 Are you interested in spending time restoring an old place (thinking log cabin or similar) or possibly converting an old Log Barn / Outbuilding into a residential space ? There are many amazing conversions to look at, people do it all the time.
 ARE YOU PATIENT ENOUGH to spend 4-5 years setting everything up to what & how you want ? THIS IS BIG & NOONE CONSIDERS IT REALISTICALLY ! We all have particular needs, wants and how we want things to be.... what works for me "might" work for you or not, would you take it and change it or try to understand why I did what I did and how it works for me and my use... YES it does take that long & sometimes more + always double the cost too!
 Will you work with the Land / Nature or try to force it to your will.... It is cheaper & better to work "with" as that will last, forcing land to conform requires ongoing interventions which means time & costs... 

FYI: As I said, my land was never worked or farmed... Cattle Grazing and light logging only in the past. Because of that wildlife has roamed freely all over it... deer, moose, bear, wild turkey and everything else.... There are so many varieties of apple trees, plums, pears and other fruit bearing bushes & trees producing all over... All thanks to the critter's dropping seed over decades and that is completely irreplaceable as well as being a valuable source of food, not only for us but for the critters too ! I am further enriching that by adding more fruit bearing trees to select areas and other vegetation to support it... While still keeping a Garden & small greenhouse for the things that I want on my plate when I want it. I should also note that I never planted "commercial grass" ICK ! While I do cut the open area a bit, it is what has always grown there including ancient grasses & grains that pop up which I let grow long.... The birds, bees and even the deer are attracted to that and love it which keeps them away from "my food"... yet the good benefits are lot's of bee's, butterflies, dragon flies and little birds all working together doing pest control, pollination & more... Is it picture perfect urbanium ? ABSOLUTELY NOT but it is gorgeous, colourful, varied and constantly full of surprises.

Long Yap and Too Much info I suppose BUT hopefully some nuggets & ideas to ponder on while considering your options. At least I enjoyed writing all this out while waiting for the sunshine to warm up the outside.

Have a Terrific Day !
Steve


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I wanted raw land. Much of the raw land was raw due to factors that made it less desirable, but often not obvious.

Clearing land is incredibly costly, time and money. In my area, anything that remains wooded or allowed to reforest was due to its unsuitability to grow crops profitably. 

You can plant pine trees near the road to gain privacy. Orient your house to the back yard, ignore the traffic.

Building new will often be more costly than repairing a solid existing home.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

When I am looking for property I have an idea of what I think is perfect but I go into it looking at everything in my price range. I am cheap, no worse, very, very cheap. I look and if interested I spend a lot of time on the land, getting a feel for it. Most times it wasn't what I thought was ideal but everything came together. I change the layout, house plan, orientation, everything, to fit the land. From town lots to farms to off grid properties to recreational properties. I have bought 50+ parcels and very few would have been what I thought was perfect but with an open mind they became favorites at the time. I too like a buffer from the road but also want a lane of sight when I hear something going on out front. I have removed trees and have planted trees to make that happen. I don't like a mono forest, I want a mix so I interplant what I want, oaks, conifers, fruit and nut trees, very little undergrowth except near the property lines. I don't want people seeing my buildings from the road, so no straight perfect rows or driveway even though I always fence off the driveway seperate. Takes a lot more posts and wire, more work, it is the way I want it. Land has to have water, I never buy without water, well, spring, city, county, pond. Around here there are so many places where there is sulfur, salt, very little or no water. I will not take a chance. My uncle bought a place, beautiful, near perfect, drilled 12 wells never got enough water to build on it, barely enough to water the livestock. He was a great well witcher, only place water was never found. He was so positive when he bought it he hand dug a well, 32' hit dirt that held water about every 5'....James


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Really comes down to money and your time. Steve S really hit a lot of key points. 

First, find out where you want your dream homestead. Forget price, and focus on that. I first bought a 1/2 lot with new home in an area I liked. I then lived there while I scoped out acreage lots. I wanted to be close to lakes, ocean, trails (outback) and privacy. Living in an area I liked gave me plenty of time to find the dream lot. Since I like to work the land, I was keen to find an undisturbed lot with no easements, covenants etc...very important!

For bare land lot, buying your own excavator is a must, especially a forested lot. So far, I've spent about $4/hr on maintenance costs, less gas. 
As I've mentioned in my thread, I'll be able to sell it for close to what I paid for it. I've put a thousand hours on it. If I hired someone to put a thousand hours (or even half that if they had a larger machine), I'd be bankrupt. 

I would have considered a lot with a rundown. But our area isn't old enough to have many rundowns. The plus there, is less infrastructure costs. The house I'd eventually raze, but having a roof over one's head from the get-go saves one money renting or living in a RV. 

Location location location is everything...if you have time, eventually a steal comes up.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I was all set to buy 80 acres advertised as open fields and maple forest, on a blacktop road.
When I got there, taking many miles of awful gravel roads, to get to the blacktop, it was 80 acres of brush. Water wasn&#8217;t a problem, there was plenty. Water existed from 2 feet to 2 inches from the ground surface. The soil type was light sand. The trees were small tamarack.
My dream was to own the land outright, built a cabin, barn and a huge garden.
I drove around and checked out a dozen properties. All had major drawbacks. I don&#8217;t mean they just didn&#8217;t suit me, things like swampy, rocky or blow sand.
With an open mind, I found a farm house, barn, two year around streams, 160 acres of mostly open fields. Far from what I had imagined. 
So, instead of clearing garden space, I was plowing fields. Instead of hewing logs for a cabin, I was hanging drywall, restoring a 5 bedroom brick home.
The climate and soil type was not conducive to gardening, but the hard red clay soil, cool nights and abundant rain made it great for hay and pastures. 
For a while, I longed for a warmer climate and longer summer. But real estate prices reminded that I could trade my 160 acre farm for a 10 acre parcel of fertile soil and a nice house trailer in the Ozarks, even up


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

haypoint said:


> I was all set to buy 80 acres advertised as open fields and maple forest, on a blacktop road.
> When I got there, taking many miles of awful gravel roads, to get to the blacktop, it was 80 acres of brush. Water wasn&#8217;t a problem, there was plenty. Water existed from 2 feet to 2 inches from the ground surface. The soil type was light sand. The trees were small tamarack.
> My dream was to own the land outright, built a cabin, barn and a huge garden.
> I drove around and checked out a dozen properties. All had major drawbacks. I don&#8217;t mean they just didn&#8217;t suit me, things like swampy, rocky or blow sand.
> ...


I agree Haypoint...have an open mind. 
Plus, be aware half the lots or more are crap...likely sitting on market for years. I'd say 90% of the lots/homes for sale in my hood are crap, maybe more. There was a run in the market, and all the good stuff gets taken first, leaving behind garbage. So, now we have overpriced lots near hwy (noisy and no privacy), or mega mansions cheek to jowl with no property. 
Couldn't believe one 1/2acre lot sold for near a 100k that is across from the primary septic system of a neighborhood...the smell in summer is palpable. It sat for years....
Another cottage sold that has a spring under it....and it is at an intersection.

But the real winner is a development...nice paved roads, decent view lots, but is along a section of hwy we call Misery Mile. 
Absolute tomb in winter as the development is on north side of small mountain. I have to drive it to get to store, and in winter it is almost permanently frosty, and no sun at all! If I recall, they call it Sunview! LOL
Dark side of hills should be banned from human consumption unless you have a rare skin disease where being in the dark is a blessing.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

We initially wanted to buy property near the lake I grew up visiting. Sounded very romantic, several properties available, electric and city water available. Problem is, most of the available land is in use and there is some real crap out there due to the lack of restrictions. You might have a $300,000 home sandwiched between and across the road from run down single wides with 30 years of junk cars and mowers in the yard. 

Steve S made a good point about checking the land. I found a website that lets you mark out a property on the map and provides you the soil type and profile for that property. Most of the land in the area we initially looked is not suitable for growing anything but trees, brush, and native grass. We plan on a sustainable garden, and it would take years to build up the soil enough to make a good garden. The soil is so rocky and gravelly that you would probably go through a set of tiller tines in a year.

Flexibility is indeed key. We switched our focus area a few miles away and the property in the area looks much more promising.

Steve S, thanks for what you shared. Sometimes the best way to find something is word of mouth from locals. We did some driving on some back roads and saw some promising properties and got a couple phone numbers. Our current car is a Ford Focus, and it is a little low to the ground for the back roads. In the course of our excursion the ABS warning light came on. The car is under warranty so my wife took it to the dealership the next day. Warranties don't cover something getting kicked up and pulling the wire from an ABS sensor. It was only $125. Guess I'll do some more work on my old truck and take it next time we are driving around looking for property.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

melli said:


> I agree Haypoint...have an open mind.
> Plus, be aware half the lots or more are crap...likely sitting on market for years. I'd say 90% of the lots/homes for sale in my hood are crap, maybe more. There was a run in the market, and all the good stuff gets taken first, leaving behind garbage. So, now we have overpriced lots near hwy (noisy and no privacy), or mega mansions cheek to jowl with no property.
> Couldn't believe one 1/2acre lot sold for near a 100k that is across from the primary septic system of a neighborhood...the smell in summer is palpable. It sat for years....
> Another cottage sold that has a spring under it....and it is at an intersection.
> ...


Keeping an open mind is hugely important. Not being rushed into a decision is hugely important. The more we talk, the more we refine what size place we want to build. My wife is becoming more and more convinced that we should look hard at building off grid and cutting down the footprint of our home from 40x60 with 3 bedrooms - 1 of which would be storage, the other which might get used a couple days every few years, to a 30x30 with 1 bedroom and a nice sized storage room. Cheaper to build and maintain.

I really like the idea of starting with raw land and doing what we want with it. Lots of work, but nothing satisfies me more than taking a step back and knowing that I did that. We are looking at 10 forested acres so an excavator will be a must. I'm figuring that there would probably be a use for an excavator as long as I can manage to climb up on it, so most likely it will be my kids selling it after they scatter my ashes on the lake.

The beauty of it is, we get to do what we want, the way we want. It doesn't get much better than that. Thanks for sharing your thread Melli. What you have done with your property is inspirational and educational.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Look at the areas your interested in in ALL Seasons... Notably in spring during the big thaws... Might think WHY - but lemme tell ya, what hides under snow and appears in spring is an indicator of what the land will do when it is wet, deluged (think flood) and how quickly it will drain / recover.

Rural property hunting is better in a truck... preferable a well used one... Shiny New truck = target - Trying to picture a Focus on Logging Roads.... ok major chuckle ! 

On the land and gardening... If the soil base is good, loamy with clay under it - you can create your own Terra Preta REF: http://www.biochar.info/biochar.terra-preta.cfml and while you say the lands are mostly good for "trees" if trees grow other things will too, don't discount that too quickly... You are thinking inside a narrow line of thought.... No Offence intended ! Food Forests / Permaculture / Wild Gardening all work and your area will likely support such quite well but it is a slightly different method that what people are used to seeing daily... Everyone pictures mom's nicely laid out garden rows, all neat & tidy as a pin... HUMBUG METHOD ! Raised Gardens are what succeeds in the wild's of the country... Potato Barrels, Raised Beds, Composting + AND means less bending / kneeling to tend the gardens if they are raised... (both my knee's are shot as is one ankle & hip, so with limited capabilities I adapted - bending / kneeling are NOT good for me so I do it only when I have to... Made it really hard to build my place but did it !


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

oldtruckbbq said:


> Keeping an open mind is hugely important. Not being rushed into a decision is hugely important. The more we talk, the more we refine what size place we want to build. My wife is becoming more and more convinced that we should look hard at building off grid and cutting down the footprint of our home from 40x60 with 3 bedrooms - 1 of which would be storage, the other which might get used a couple days every few years, to a 30x30 with 1 bedroom and a nice sized storage room. Cheaper to build and maintain.
> 
> I really like the idea of starting with raw land and doing what we want with it. Lots of work, but nothing satisfies me more than taking a step back and knowing that I did that. We are looking at 10 forested acres so an excavator will be a must. I'm figuring that there would probably be a use for an excavator as long as I can manage to climb up on it, so most likely it will be my kids selling it after they scatter my ashes on the lake.
> 
> The beauty of it is, we get to do what we want, the way we want. It doesn't get much better than that. Thanks for sharing your thread Melli. What you have done with your property is inspirational and educational.


Wow, thanks Oldtruckbbq! 
Absolutely appreciate that you find it useful and inspirational. A blabbing blogger always wonders if they are just writing a diary or if it actually helps others pursue their dreams. 

I think we all have the dream to homestead from scratch (in our DNA), but when one sees another person accomplish it (or in my case, get close), it helps one in 'taking the leap'. As I mentioned on my thread, a homestead neighbor down the road did that for me. And he has no real building experience...actually, he still doesn't...lol. Also, I had never done a well hookup, installed a septic field, nor done such an extensive electrical install before now. I had to go online and research the crap out of each phase til I was confident (mostly) of what i was doing...lol

Looking back, it took a garbage pail full of optimism and being naive as to how much work it takes. Although, if one has plenty of cash, it is easy. I didn't and still don't...lol
Yet, I've managed to turn this forest into a home. It didn't feel that way a year ago when I would drive up driveway. Now, it does. 
When I would reach a milestone (like getting power installed), the joy of accomplishing it would carry over to the next milestone...sort of like painting a picture by numbers. Once you finish a few colors, you begin to see the whole picture. 
All the best...looking forward to seeing your pics one day.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Steve_S said:


> Look at the areas your interested in in ALL Seasons... Notably in spring during the big thaws... Might think WHY - but lemme tell ya, what hides under snow and appears in spring is an indicator of what the land will do when it is wet, deluged (think flood) and how quickly it will drain / recover.
> 
> Rural property hunting is better in a truck... preferable a well used one... Shiny New truck = target - Trying to picture a Focus on Logging Roads.... ok major chuckle !
> 
> On the land and gardening... If the soil base is good, loamy with clay under it - you can create your own Terra Preta REF: http://www.biochar.info/biochar.terra-preta.cfml and while you say the lands are mostly good for "trees" if trees grow other things will too, don't discount that too quickly... You are thinking inside a narrow line of thought.... No Offence intended ! Food Forests / Permaculture / Wild Gardening all work and your area will likely support such quite well but it is a slightly different method that what people are used to seeing daily... Everyone pictures mom's nicely laid out garden rows, all neat & tidy as a pin... HUMBUG METHOD ! Raised Gardens are what succeeds in the wild's of the country... Potato Barrels, Raised Beds, Composting + AND means less bending / kneeling to tend the gardens if they are raised... (both my knee's are shot as is one ankle & hip, so with limited capabilities I adapted - bending / kneeling are NOT good for me so I do it only when I have to... Made it really hard to build my place but did it !


Hey Steve...did you make a thread of your homestead? Would love to see pics of that!


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Melli I did not start or run a thread of my build process over the years in THIS forum... I did start in another, complete with photo's etc but very quickly got tired of being picked on, snickered at and even bullied in PM's so I stopped. I share limited info when convenient and potentially helpful to someone. Funny how some folks are so brave behind a puter... 

Re Food Trees in my forest... Thankfully the wildlife planted the seed over many years and hence why the forest around my cabin is filled with assorted goodies, birds, deer, moose and even the herds of chipmunks have all planted seed everywhere... 

BTW: It (my homestead) will be up for sale come springtime 99% Likely as my health has turned worse and as of last night, the worst of the worst news was dropped on my lap - so now I have other concerns for the next 6-8 months... had been hoping for longer but ces't la vie, mon amis.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Steve_S said:


> Melli I did not start or run a thread of my build process over the years in THIS forum... I did start in another, complete with photo's etc but very quickly got tired of being picked on, snickered at and even bullied in PM's so I stopped. I share limited info when convenient and potentially helpful to someone. Funny how some folks are so brave behind a puter...
> 
> Re Food Trees in my forest... Thankfully the wildlife planted the seed over many years and hence why the forest around my cabin is filled with assorted goodies, birds, deer, moose and even the herds of chipmunks have all planted seed everywhere...
> 
> BTW: It (my homestead) will be up for sale come springtime 99% Likely as my health has turned worse and as of last night, the worst of the worst news was dropped on my lap - so now I have other concerns for the next 6-8 months... had been hoping for longer but ces't la vie, mon amis.


Oh man, so sorry to hear about your health issues! Whatever it may be, I hope you can overcome them. Anything is possible! 

As for trolls, screw em...I wouldn't say I have thick skin, but I am getting on in age, and I realize that time is fleeting, and consequently, I have no time or care for negative people. Usually, I commiserate with them, as they likely had some life experience that has made them bitter. Not a pleasant way to enjoy life.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

Steve_S said:


> Look at the areas your interested in in ALL Seasons... Notably in spring during the big thaws... Might think WHY - but lemme tell ya, what hides under snow and appears in spring is an indicator of what the land will do when it is wet, deluged (think flood) and how quickly it will drain / recover.
> 
> Rural property hunting is better in a truck... preferable a well used one... Shiny New truck = target - Trying to picture a Focus on Logging Roads.... ok major chuckle !
> 
> On the land and gardening... If the soil base is good, loamy with clay under it - you can create your own Terra Preta REF: http://www.biochar.info/biochar.terra-preta.cfml and while you say the lands are mostly good for "trees" if trees grow other things will too, don't discount that too quickly... You are thinking inside a narrow line of thought.... No Offence intended ! Food Forests / Permaculture / Wild Gardening all work and your area will likely support such quite well but it is a slightly different method that what people are used to seeing daily... Everyone pictures mom's nicely laid out garden rows, all neat & tidy as a pin... HUMBUG METHOD ! Raised Gardens are what succeeds in the wild's of the country... Potato Barrels, Raised Beds, Composting + AND means less bending / kneeling to tend the gardens if they are raised... (both my knee's are shot as is one ankle & hip, so with limited capabilities I adapted - bending / kneeling are NOT good for me so I do it only when I have to... Made it really hard to build my place but did it !


No logging roads for the Focus! We were on gravel county roads and got on one that has a wet weather crossing. It had rained pretty hard a few days before and the road was pretty rough in spots and had a lot of debris on it.

I have a 79 Chevy C10 that will be hitting the road soon. I replaced the leaky Quadrajet carb and cast iron intake with shiney new Edelbrock parts. Next is getting rid of the exhaust manifolds and installing headers and a new exhaust. I love the old trucks because they are cheap and easy to fix up. With a little knuckle busting and some basic hand tools you can keep one running forever. At least this hobby serves a practical purpose! It has a faded gray and white paint job that was "freshened up" by a PO in his driveway from the looks of it. And an shell that is probably original to the truck.

You make a good point about the garden. My mind automatically goes back to the big rectangular gardens my grandparents had on their fairly flat land. I used google to find websites and blogs on terraced vegetable gardens and found a world of resources and blogs out there. Makes sense. My bender isn't the best in the world and my DW already has 1 hip replacement. I saw a couple amazing gardens with retaining walls made from the stones dug out of the ground. Pathways between terraces so bending and stooping is almost eliminated. It made the garden fit into the space and it was really beautiful compared to the "traditional" garden. One garden I saw on Pinterest had a wrought iron table and chairs set up between a couple of the terraces. Looked like a nice place to enjoy a cold brew at the end of a long day.

I don't get easily offended, especially when I am looking for information and someone takes the time to provide it. As long as they aren't sneering at me and telling me I'm stupid, I'm good.

One of the things I've learned about people on this site is that they tend to be good at adapting and figuring out how to make the most of what they are dealt. Probably one of the most valuable traits for a homesteader.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Geez wiz, I just had my 86 K1500 retire itself with it's final load of Cedar Lumber... Old Blue moved her last 2500 lbs of wood and finally broke in half on the old logger road. I have an 81 C10 that I was about to rebuild (has about 70,000 mi / 108,000 Km) which suffered a brief engine fire... Oiled yearly it has no rust at all... likely what caused the engine fire as it happened 15 minutes after it's last oil treatment in the fall of 2015. The cab floor is still shiny inside (under the vinyl) and under the cab, once you wipe the annual oil goo away (thick and works !).

*Terraced Gardens, Raised Garden Beds*, can do a lot in saving your back and making "zones" with mixed plants which bring the good bugs in to deal with bad bugs and you even want to attract the right birds as they also manage the bugs for you, which is far better than using Mr Chemical. Using Raised Boxes built out of Cedar (you can use slab wood from a mill which is extremely cheap) you get something that will last a good while, can be removed, replaced or repaired easily and very low impact on the environment. 

There is another method / variation you may consider called *Hugekultur* which has several advantages in poor soil conditions or conditions subject to extended dry periods... One REF: https://richsoil.com/hugelkultur/ There are many sites that discuss this method. The method of enriching the soil and using "waste" underneath that retains water & provides habitat for good bugs & worms is a natural means to accomplish a lot with little long term effort. You can go with Big Berms if you want but laying in decomposing wood stock etc 2' below your "working food garden" be it boxed or terraced or... I think you get the drift. BTW: If you have to clear land at some point, you'll get big branches, small trees and partly rotting logs = all base food for HugeKultur Berms... stuff that is beyond firewood or other use BUT great for this application.. best part is the cost, it's free waste ! that pays back positively for years, if used right.

Again there are many ways "we can adapt" to the land versus beating it into submission which is only temporary... It all depends on being open to ideas & options which may apply to your particular corner.

Retaining walls made of stone are great but I have to warn you that it is a LOT of work... and how you go about it all depends on what kind of rocks you have on the land... My property is filled with Glacial Deposits that got dumped on the ridge as the glacier's pulled back and cut the valley here... It's all mixed types but rounded and bounced around so nice field stones from fist size to 30/40+ ton boulders (luckily not that many huge ones). If you have slates or sediment formed rock with flat sides it would be easier to dry stack or build with. With rounded field stones that's tougher and I discovered that using *Gabion Baskets *works a treat with these... You can make your own with the right materials or buy premade ones... Alternatively, Slip form Masonry could be used with rounded field stones as well but this is more permanent.
REF:
https://www.gabionsupply.com/ <--- A Gabion Basket vendor US
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slipformstonemasonry <--- about slipform masonry (many articles on this topic in google)

BTW: Somethings to Ponder ! 
When I started my adventure, I did not know what the costs had gone up to - ouch, things got expensive over the years I wasn't building / doing. FACTOR IT & DOUBLE IT !

No One ever mentioned what their costs for drilling a well or installing a septic system... The costs being unknown made much hesitation... THAT is why I said what my well cost.... Sure it's likely diff where you are but it's a general idea anyways. As I went with a Grey Water & Compost toilet, not only because of the cost (would have been 8K+) but the environmental idiocy of creating toxic black water never appealed to me or my senses... again work WITH and not against Nature....

< BRAINSTORM >
The most critical in planning... Put "all" ideas on the table, be prepared to question yourself, your notions & experiences and look at other notions & experiences. There is NO PROBLEM THAT HAS NOT BEEN SOLVED PREVIOUSLY BY SOMEONE ELSE OR AT ANOTHER TIME IN HISTORY ! Remember Romans had plumbing & toilets & Central Heating as well, then was forgotten for nearly 1100 years till the 1800's + in Europe ! The Babylonians in 2500BC had passive Air Conditioning using earth tubes that took in air from inlets above water pools, using not only the evaporation but the temp differential to drive the air movement in the pipes... 

An idea which may sound ridiculous or even crazily out of place for one person/group may be a solution for another in another area... It all depends on what is at hand and what you can make use of, so never dismiss an idea outrights. Sometimes it's a combo of two "outlandish" ideas that provide a good solution when used together. That is evolution & adaptation to suit a need. - I was taught years ago by a very good professor who believed in Brain Storming with the rules, that no idea, regardless of how it may seem or that it may be ridiculous is put on the blackboard and after all ideas are listed, review them all, as often some of the crazier ones will stand out as the most appropriate solution and to never discount them.... (BTW that happened a lot in projects like the Manhattan Project, Space Program and even with the development of ENIAC) so why not in everyday life.

In Essence your Brain Storming ideas now and flushing out the bits that you can use and apply in your planning & consideration stage AND refer back to when you get to the point of buying the land and ready to put shovels in the ground.

Goodness Gracious... did it again... type, type, type & share more info to overload... Dang me and my info dumping. Ohh well, hopefully it will be useful to folks as they tread through the forums looking for info.

BTW: Find posts by TnAndy in regards to his builds, greenhouses etc... amazing stuff, great info & detail. He has gone large scale (for me anyways) but has done so many good things and experimented with what works, a good source of solutions.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

No problem on the long post Steve S. Lots of good info in there. I have introduced myself before by telling people that I am not known for my brevity. Get me on a topic that is a passion and I can make myself hoarse talking about it. 

The area we are looking for land is in the Ozarks of Southeast Missouri. It is basically a limestone karst geography. The glaciers didn't affect the area, but there has been a lot of erosion of the limestone resulting in everything from gravel to good size boulders. There is a lot of gravel in the soil, and in some areas the bedrock is close enough to the surface that it may not be deep enough for a septic tank and ladder lines. Most of the available land is on the ridge tops and has electric and city water available. We even saw a cable tv truck parked next to a pole and a tech up on the pole working on wires. Maybe we need to look further out in the boonies, although having electric and water running right in front of the property does have its benefits.

I checked the website for the county health department and they don't require a test and certificate on a septic system if the property is more than 3 acres. I guess they figure that if it is more than 3 acres the land should be able to handle it. We are open to the idea of a composting toilet and grey water discharge. Just have to make sure that the soaps and detergents we use for bathing and washing clothes and dishes isn't going to cause issues with garden plants and the environment. The area is in the watershed of a Corps of Engineers lake and we don't want to pollute.

As the saying goes, there is nothing new under the sun. We are very interested in alternative energy sources and alternative heating and cooling sources. Finding out of the box solutions to everyday issues makes things more fun and more personalized. Nothing like stepping back and being able to say "I did that".


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Ahhh getting hoarse over a passionate topic... indeed ! <raises hand> LOL

On community water... It is a nice to have but I have come to a realization that depending on an external source / infrastructure, especially in difficult times or during disaster's can lead to personal disaster's. Continued dependence on the whims of other's should be a consideration. Quite a few folks here have been & seen what happen's when SHTF and as the old Boy Scout saying goes "Be Prepared". NO I am not talking about Survivalist / Prepper mode which is a tad extreme IMO. It has never been more true than now & in the future, that one can & must depend on themselves as much as possible without reliance on essentials from the outside.... 

Grey Water is not a Big Scary or Complicated thing to do properly. Sure you have to be careful on soaps, detergents and NOT using the sink as a waste disposal system... No more flushing / dumping garbage down the pipe... A BAD Habit people get into in Urbanium etc... Careful planning and proper thinking applied, you should not have issues. 

Composting Toilet's... Many options abound, some pretty pricey... some use electric heaters to cook the waste down (expensive to run $power$) and some use proprietary compounds / chemicals (trapped on sole source) and other's use saw dust or other... That could be a topic on it's own... along with Grey Water systems... 

Now a Damper - of sorts...
Consider that the closer you are to "Services" the closer you are to a larger population. More population = more potential for problems both Short & Long term. The higher the tax rates etc etc etc... This comes back to your Long Term Planning into the "needs & must haves" for not only today but tomorrow, next week, month and following years. Where do you expect your career, life to be in say 5 - 10 years ? Don't just consider things for today and the immediate future... Kids, Grandkids, Great Grandkids ?? 

Having a property that can allow you to subsist off the land if necessary is the best long term solution. From your discussion that is what your after over a period of time. The reality is that you need to be able to have your own water supply which can water your gardens and you too... Fuel for heating & cooking (wood, biogas or whatever). 

Basically my life experience has taught me many lessons and taking from my training of many years, I always have a backup & a backup to that. The RULE OF THREE is always applied to all aspects. Example, I have NO Grid Power, Solar Powered, with a 3Kw Inverter Genny for that + a 9kw Genny as 3rd backup... Both Gennies are about to be converted to multi-fuel. Heating: Woodstove, Radiant Heat (LPG), Portable LPG Heater + Portable Kerosene Heater. (OK I am in Canada and it get's dang cold, so...) Lighting, I have Solar (independent), Electric (from my solar system) and even a collection of oil lamps +... Even have 3 running Vehicles - 2 trucks and one PT Cruiser for daily furtler !! I even have an extra AGM Battery for the Vehicles in the power house on a separate solar panel maintainer "Just in Case". Overkill ? NO, I am in the bush and away from many things and so backups.... 

LESSON LEARNED: My training & resulting use of Rule of Three has saved not only my keister but other's as well... A friend once laughed at me for my Preparedness, then during an Ice Strom and loss of power, I saved his home from flooding, freezing and kept all 5 of them warm, powered & fed for three weeks just on "some" of my reserves & backups. THEY NEVER EVER LAUGHED AGAIN ! Especially when they saw neighbours scrambling through a loosing battle of no supplies, gouged prices and no access to most resources and without ANY municipal services like water, power or even sewage (all failed). How long can you hold out till an APC arrives with relief supplies ? Are you willing to risk waiting for a "maybe, sometime" ? 

Lose a freezer of food and your out a grand or two pretty easily... A 2kw Inverter Generator that can run that + a few lights can be had for $500 and it's there if/when you need it + handy for other things. I built my place 90% at least using DeWalt 20V Tools mostly but table saw, compound mitre saw, compressor (3hp/20gal), chargers, Mig Welder ran / run off my Gennies, as needed.... Consider the cost of Deductible on a freezer claim and likely that would have paid for the Genny.... Penny Wise & Dollar Wise over the longer term giving you more real value overall + peace of mind which is invaluable.

More to chomp on and consider ... Head Spinning yet ? LOL.... Brainstorming Discussions are the best IMO. 

I hope other reader's / Lurker's are benefitting from this exchange of information and considering their own situation & options for "Self-Hardening" against external things than can so easily cause havoc... and NO I don't mean run off in Prepper / Survivalist mode (unless that is your thing) out of fear. *This is just about maintaining things for yourself at a level that works for you and self insuring your own well being as much as possible, don't count on anyone else being there to bail you out in dire situations.*

Have a Terrific Day everyone.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

I would try to find an old farmstead that needs work rather than starting from scratch. It will be much cheaper to clean up and rebuild or replace the house and buildings than starting from scratch. The driveway will be in place, much of the clearing already done, electric, water & septic will already be in place, some fence, barns, waterways or ponds may be serviceable, etc.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

oldtruckbbq said:


> No problem on the long post Steve S. Lots of good info in there. I have introduced myself before by telling people that I am not known for my brevity. Get me on a topic that is a passion and I can make myself hoarse talking about it.
> 
> The area we are looking for land is in the Ozarks of Southeast Missouri. It is basically a limestone karst geography. The glaciers didn't affect the area, but there has been a lot of erosion of the limestone resulting in everything from gravel to good size boulders. There is a lot of gravel in the soil, and in some areas the bedrock is close enough to the surface that it may not be deep enough for a septic tank and ladder lines. Most of the available land is on the ridge tops and has electric and city water available. We even saw a cable tv truck parked next to a pole and a tech up on the pole working on wires. Maybe we need to look further out in the boonies, although having electric and water running right in front of the property does have its benefits.
> 
> ...


No certificate on septic system! Wow...
It wasn't that it cost me a fortune to get the engineer to sign off on my system, but still, in my mind, it is another cash grab (he spent all of 20min on site - he never came back after installed it...lol). I have a link on my thread about the Eljen system I installed. About as easy as it can get for a property without suitable soil for a conventional system. The manual was as clear as day. Nothing terribly complicated about it at all. You definitely want a gravity system, whichever direction you go...requiring power to operate your septic system is anathema to me. 
Which ties into what Steve was saying...being self sufficient. I haven't got the solar yet...be some time, but I do have genny for outages. By the time I get there, I will have a serious solar system with lithium batteries (hopefully prices on those suckers will come down some more). 
Nonetheless, I am self sufficient on all my services (don't require muni septic nor water). While I am tied the electric grid, I have a genny if that goes down, plus the RV is self sufficient (batteries, propane heating, cooking and fridge). Last windstorm, I was going to bug out, and use a cottage (can't sleep if I can hear trees thrashing each other). But, then I would be in a cold cottage with no power...not appealing. 

Given my background, Karst topography would concern me. I'd make sure there are no sinkholes in hood, or evidence of such. It becomes a bit of gamble. The upside, is there should be plenty of water underneath. Really depends on depth of limestone layer...overall subsurface profile. 
The one thing that I sort of knew going in, was my place was going to be deficient in soil. I knew I would have bring in truckloads of fill. That being said, I loved the location and privacy. Not perfect, but the great thing about the 150 loads I've gotten so far, is I won't have to repeat it down the road...and my build locations are on bedrock, about as solid as one can get for my seismically active area.


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## oldtruckbbq (Aug 8, 2016)

We have talked at length about power and water. Once while stationed at Fort Campbell and another time while living in Broken Arrow, OK we endured several days without power due to an ice storm. It is miserable, and good luck finding a generator once the power goes out.

As soon as we purchase land we will be purchasing a generator to power tools and some lighting. I've been doing a lot of research on solar and wind power and see some real potential with a smaller house and efficient use of appliances. Public water is available in most of the areas we have looked, but a guy I work with has a side business with his dad drilling wells in the area. He claims that 60 to 140 feet gets dependable sweet water. I personally like that idea. Add in an RO filter and UV sterilizer and you don't have any worries.

While living in TX and OK I saw quite a few aerobic septic systems in areas where there was a lot of clay in the soil and it just would not perk. In the early morning hour sprinkler heads would pop up and spray the treated effluent over an area. Surprising it doesn't stink. If you live in an area prone to outages you would definitely need backup power because they use power to run an aerater, agitator, and effluent discharge pump. Still better than having a lagoon or trying a septic with a leech field that plugs or saturates during heavy rain.

I was surprised about not needing a certificate if you are on more than 3 acres myself. So much so that I called the county health department for that area and verified what I read. Of course, she did point out that it makes it much easier to sell a place if you have a certified system because a lot of places won't do a mortgage without that certification.

Bottom line is that I want a reliable system that is going to have a minimal environmental impact.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

oldtruckbbq said:


> ...... He claims that 60 to 140 feet gets dependable sweet water.........


I wouldn't doubt that. I would consider Karst topography as sitting on one giant reservoir....huge voids for water to collect. Plus, the limestone would keep the water ph in the sweet zone. Makes me curious to know what Ozark water tastes like....lol

I would look into a raised bed septic system...gravity fed, if possible. Might have to bring in some sand, but not worrying about whether your septic system is 'powered' up is one less headache. 

best
melli


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

@OldTruck....

LOL.... U sick of all the posts yet ? hehehehe

An avenue worthy of exploring for Solar Power is to look at Boating & RV solutions for a complete standalone system at reasonable prices. There are some advantages to using "Marine" classed equipment. For example, my Inverter/Charger (one unit) is a Marine Unit that has features which are not included in other applications... Auto-switching to "shore power" when batteries hit triggered threshold... and having bypass capabilities... Something for consideration (and separate thread) when you get closer to that level. 

Having your own water access is essential... Water IS LIFE - without it your doomed... Humans cannot go without it.... That which controls Water & Food controls the masses - look elsewhere in the world to see how that is working out today.... Always remember the Boy Scout Motto "Be Prepared".


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