# Lister diesel gensets?



## cbcansurvive

Anyone running a Lister diesel genset? Listers are very simple and easy to maintain diesel engines originally produced in England-copies of the design are now manufactured in India. These engines were meant for providing power in the far flung areas of the British Empire for water pumps, generators, mills, etc...areas where the fuel is usually of poor quality, proper tools are scarce, and adequate knowledge of mechanics is even more scarce. As a result the engines will run on almost any kind of petroleum or plant oil and can be rebuilt by a four year old with a crescent wrench. 

This is a great webpage with an example of a homebuilt genset. 

http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/lister.html

This gentleman uses his for emergency purposes (he lives in hurricane territory) but I would be looking to supplement much (if not all) of our power usage. I am hoping to be able run the generator on a mixture of #2 fuel oil, waste vegetable oils from restaurant fryers, and drain oils from our vehicles. Does anyone here run something similar?


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## Jim-mi

NO

But I am intrigued with Listers.

It would take very little arm twisting to get me to get one.


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## artificer

Take a look at http://www.utterpower.com/

The good: if you do your homework, know that they need work, they can last a long time, provide lots of useable power from whatever fuel you have. WVO, WMO, SVO, ATF, ... Good specific fuel consumption, cogen, DIY...

The bad: you have to consider these things a kit engine. Partial/total teardown/inspection, manufacturing defect repair...

We have one, and I'm working to put it into service. This will be the main power source, untill we get lots of solar. 

Other options are the changfa diesel engines, redstones, or something similar.

Michael


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## ace admirer

yeah, i have a 14 hp single cylinder india built unit pulling an 1800 rpm head, custom turned gen flywheel that uses the same type "K" belt used on my f250 diesel truck. i'm using a david brown tractor radiator (i've got a bunch of david brown tractors.) in a thermosophioning cooling system (did not use the supplied pump). 

in use, the unit held 60 cyc frequency within about +/- 1.5 hz all day,,,which happen to be thanksgiving day during which my wife cooked dinner for the inlaws. so i was very pleased with the units operation. my only problem is that one lifter does not rotate reliably, i need to take it out and do a little tuning to fix that. 

i purchased the 14 hp unit for about $900 five or so years ago....i wished i had purchased a small 7.5 hp or so unit also.. to pull a smaller generator rigg

with the units relatively slow speed, i am sure it will burn just about anything you can get to flow into the injector.

the single cyliinder engine hits pretty hard, so it needs a heavy/secure engine frame/base


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## artificer

Why are you thinking of doing this?

Off-grid? Save money? The warm fuzzy feeling of burning renewable fuel? Telling the power company to go take a leap? Sounds like a really cool project?

I would argue that you can't save money if you have grid power already. If you have extra costs, like the $12k that the power company wants to charge us, just so they can charge us, thats a different story. Since the $12 will cover all of the equipment costs, as well as a buch of fuel, we will be better off financially with generating our own power. Then when we get solar...

If its just a fun project... ---- the costs, and full speed ahead. You'll have backup power at least. 

If you plan on running the engine for a long time (10,000 - 20,000 hours or more) I would suggest getting one of the faster higher hp singles. You can slow it down and run it a lower power, but if you need the higher power, you can max out the speed/hp. The listeroid twins have had camshaft problems when you put lots of hours on them. (10,000+?)

Michael


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## davel745

Being new here I donât want to ruffle any feathers but Artificer last paragraph, isnât accurate. 

(If you plan on running the engine for a long time (10,000 - 20,000 hours or more) I would suggest getting one of the faster higher hp singles. You can slow it down and run it a lower power, but if you need the higher power, you can max out the speed/hp. The listeroid twins have had camshaft problems when you put lots of hours on them. (10,000+?)) 
My understanding is that engine output rpm is critical to frequency and voltage. While most things electric can run at a increased or decreased voltage +- 5%. The frequency is critical and a +- of 2% Is about the max deviation most electrical products can stand without problems. 

I think that a properly sized unit that is putting out the correct frequency and voltage in the tolerance range is the only way to go and it shouldnât be changed. 

As far as the twins cam shafts failing lets see 10000 / 24 = 416 days at 7 by 24. If it was used 5 hours a day that would increase to 2000 days / 365 = 5 years the cam shaft costs around 100 dollars. I guess it is worth doing. IMO

Dave


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## Wisconsin Ann

You may want to take a look through the posts on http://www.listerengine.com/. Great bunch of very knowledgeable people there. Lots of "don't do as I did" posts 

Seems the lister is a great choice for burning waste oil products...whether veggie or petroleum based. The slower speeds allow for LOTS of options.

eta: oh yes, forgot to add, they have so few moving parts that there's less to break down  I like that in an engine. heck...in anything.


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## davel745

I have bought from these people before and they are ok.

Here is what I am going to get soon (I hope LOL)

http://01856bc.netsolhost.com/order/Vegetable-Oil-Lister-Generator-6600-Watt.asp?page=L09989

Note the fuel usage at full power .478 Gal per hr at full load. Less than a Â½ gal an hour.

Also Note Parts list are here: http://www.centralmainediesel.com/order/lister_parts.asp

Another thing to consider is that they will run typically with a little maintenance for 100,000 hours / 24 = 4116 days or 11 years not to bad.

Dave


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## artificer

davel745 said:


> Being new here I donât want to ruffle any feathers but Artificer last paragraph, isnât accurate.
> 
> (If you plan on running the engine for a long time (10,000 - 20,000 hours or more) I would suggest getting one of the faster higher hp singles. You can slow it down and run it a lower power, but if you need the higher power, you can max out the speed/hp. The listeroid twins have had camshaft problems when you put lots of hours on them. (10,000+?))
> My understanding is that engine output rpm is critical to frequency and voltage. While most things electric can run at a increased or decreased voltage +- 5%. The frequency is critical and a +- of 2% Is about the max deviation most electrical products can stand without problems.
> 
> I think that a properly sized unit that is putting out the correct frequency and voltage in the tolerance range is the only way to go and it shouldnât be changed.
> 
> As far as the twins cam shafts failing lets see 10000 / 24 = 416 days at 7 by 24. If it was used 5 hours a day that would increase to 2000 days / 365 = 5 years the cam shaft costs around 100 dollars. I guess it is worth doing. IMO
> 
> Dave


No feathers ruffled, but yes, it is accurate, but I didn't do my normal long, rambling post explaining why it is.

Yes, you have to have the correct frequency from the generator. If you're talking about Listeroids, you're probably talking about one of the chinese ST heads. That means 1800 rpm to the generator head. Whatever listeroid you use, you will be gearing it up to provide the 1800rpm the generator head needs. Typically you would use an automotive multi-rib belt. You can use two pulleys on the gen head, and two springs on the governor. That way you can run it at 650rpm (450rpm?) for low power needs, but still be able to switch over to 1000 rpm for high power needs. It takes a manual switch over, but you can nearly double the power available.

The question that comes in is: what is a properly sized unit? Do you get one that can power all of your electrical loads at once? Do you get the minimum needed, and then invest in batteries/inverter to handle the peak loads? How variable is your load?

A 6-1 listeroid run at idle uses something like .125gallon/hr. It takes twice that for the 12-2. Not surprising when you double the number of cylinders.

Diesel engines like to be run hard, or at least not idling. If you have a 12-1, you can run it like a 6-1 just by running it at a lower rpm. For the same load, you now are running closer to the max hp, so more efficiency, less carbon buildup, and better running. When you need the power, just switch pulleys/belt, and get the extra you need.

The higher rpm engines tend to be internally counterbalanced. That makes for a smoother running engine.

The argument for a something like a 12-2 is that it might be cheaper or available. (just found this link,  and the 12-1 is actually cheaper than the 12-2)

The argument for a 12-1, redstone, changfa are the internal counterbalance, higher rpm range, so variable power options, single cylinder, so less parts. Why plan on replacing a camshaft when you have a choice of an engine that doesn't need it?

According to the OP, they want to be "looking to supplement much (if not all) of our power usage." To me, that means running 8, 12, 24 hours a day, since batteries/inverters haven't been mentioned. If you run that many hours a day, your engine is going to be close to idling for long periods. If so, you want as good of specific fuel consumption as possible. That means as small an engine as possible. If you can have one that doubles the hp, just by increasing the speed...

davel745: the 100,000 with little maintenance is a fallacy. It may be that long before you need a new crank, rods, pistons, liner, but there is maintenance to be done. Several people have run 10k and 20k on their engines. 500-2000 hr decarbon of head intervals. Replace camshaft on the twins. Replace the idler on some of the engines. Replace head(s). None of this is major on the engine, but its not toaster technology. (put in toast, push a button, and its done, or in this case: give it gas/oil, start it up, and get power) 

The original Lister CS may have been able to do it, but even they had maintenance intervals for several items. Head decarbonizing was the main one.

Michael


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## Jim-mi

At the MREA Energy Fair a guy had one running . . .
There was so many folks standing around yap yaping it was hard to get a question to the owner . . . .
And it was unloaded . . .

So my question here is; How easy is it to run the RPM up or down . . ?
So as to change the freq of a big generator . . ??
And if you were running it 24/7 . . how long an interval between oil changes . .?


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## davel745

You donât want to change the rpm it is factory set but if you need to you can adjust the Governor. The different loads placed on the system are handled by the governor. Which keeps the rpmâs constant and therefore the frequency is kept at a stable 60 cycles and a voltage of 110 to about 120 volts. What changes due to electric load is the fuel consumption. And how hard the engine hits on the power stroke. Note you can only use up to the max electricity the generator can supply. In my case 6500 watts. I am going to set up a sub panel which will supply power to the circuits I want to use.

Not sure how frequently the oil needs to be changed. It will be in the operatorâs manual.

I plan not to use the generator 24/7 but to run it enough to keep the refrigerator and the freezer going properly and an adequate supply of water. If we lose power. I believe and I could be wrong but I think we are going to be experiencing a lot more brown outs and long power outages.

I also plan to use a rack of 55 gallon tanks to supply fuel or vegetable oil to the unit. 

Dave


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## ace admirer

the rpm is set through a governor which is adjusted by a simple thumb screw that puts more tension on the governor spring(higher rpm) or loosens the spring (less rpm). its no problem to adjust. some have noted roughness in the goverrnor works that needed some handwork. mine worked very well with no tinkering.

as i pointed our above, the flywheel i made for the generator was very heavy, not the spoked pulley they can sell you at ottherpower or the listerrods site. it was cheaper and quicker for me to just turn one out from a three inch thick slab of steel. anyway i think this flywheel effect on the generator helps keep the frequency more accurate. i designed the flywheel to allow a generator rpm of 1800 with an engine run of 900 rpm. my engine has a 1000 rpm max. so i just felt good about the 900 rpm.

my unit has no filter for the lubrication oil, but uses a combination of pumped oil and splash lubricant. there are a couple of plans to both add a lubrication filter system to the pumped circuit and also add an alarm system if the pump circuit should loose pressure, with a solenoid system from surplus center it would be easy to add an auto off for the engine if pressure failed. seems that one of the gem magizines has a story of a failed listeroid.generator unit from lack of oil.

anyway....everyone warns owners that there is a lot of loose sand from the poor sandcastings of the engines (the paint on the inside of the engines is an attempt to seal in the loose sand) and should be precleaned before start up and oil should be changed every few hours until the loose sand is flushed from the castings,,,,,to be honest,,i don.t remember the hour change. but would guess it would be around every 100 hours or so depending on load, carry over of combustion products. i would probably just do a finger to thumb lubracity test and change it when it felt like it needed it.

for some of the prices you fellows have noted above,,,,i think i would look into purchasing a real lister or other antique engine and not have to worry about the poor castings and machining of the reproductions.


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## davel745

I was aware of the sand issue have heard of it from another forum. Some folks recommend tearing the unit down and rebuilding it before using it. Are there side plates or a way to look into the bottom end and clean it? Also does yours have ball bearing main bearings?

Out our way there are a lot of old hit or miss engines. Mostly converted to run on natural gas. They are noisy, but run forever. A little maintenance is required. I am considering this route also. 20 to 30 hp engines for around $1200.00 - $1500.00 in good condition. 

One of my dreams is to get a lathe and a Bridgeport mill. But it may never happen. Just a dream. Come on power ball LOL.

Dave


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## ace admirer

I have full pictures of the engine somewhere (i was knocking around the idea of writting a manual for it since in those days none were available and the orginals were very expensive). 

yes at both sides of the crank area are fairly large cover plates that allow full inspection of the crank and oil sump. you can reach up through the covers and have access to the valve lifter area. mine has either ball or roller bearings, but i have heard that bushings are not so bad (if the pressure lub system does not fail. 

i have a couple of photos at photobucket but i will have to look up the location.

yeah, WV,,you guys are around oil field engines....i have a couple from WV. but like you said,,,,not so good for liquid compression fuels... witte made a few diesel oil field engines,,from the 40's if i remember correctly. i'll try to find pictures.


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## davel745

We have about 10 wells around us. Unfortunately we werenât able to get free gas due to a not to reputable real estate agent. (Told us no problem and when we signed the papers he said he made a mistake). It was our fault just as much; we should have checked it out better. But we were so excited about our purchase it just didnât get done. We are going to get gas installed in a year or so, itâs on the list. 

They have a lot of antique engine flea markets around. Old oilfield engines that are diesel are getting hard to find. They exist but parts are hard to find. Lots of hit or miss stuff. 
The jacks used on the old 5000 foot wells use a fairly small natural gas motor. But the new 14000 foot wells use a substantially larger engine as the jack rods and the weight of the oil in the column is quite heavy. However they are the new type motors. 

I may get a 20 to 30 hp hit or miss that runs on natural gas and get a Marathon generator head and make my own. 

I would like to see your pictures. 

How can I post a picture of our little homestead? Maybe you could point me in the right direction.

Best Regards

Dave


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## greg273

davel745 said:


> We have about 10 wells around us. Unfortunately we werenât able to get free gas due to a not to reputable real estate agent. (Told us no problem and when we signed the papers he said he made a mistake). It was our fault just as much; we should have checked it out better. But we were so excited about our purchase it just didnât get done. We are going to get gas installed in a year or so, itâs on the list.
> 
> They have a lot of antique engine flea markets around. Old oilfield engines that are diesel are getting hard to find. They exist but parts are hard to find. Lots of hit or miss stuff.
> The jacks used on the old 5000 foot wells use a fairly small natural gas motor. But the new 14000 foot wells use a substantially larger engine as the jack rods and the weight of the oil in the column is quite heavy. However they are the new type motors.
> 
> I may get a 20 to 30 hp hit or miss that runs on natural gas and get a Marathon generator head and make my own.
> 
> I would like to see your pictures.
> 
> *How can I post a picture of our little homestead?* Maybe you could point me in the right direction.
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Dave


I asked a similar question a few weeks ago.... for the replies, see the 'just finished hot water from woodstove' thread.


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## HermitJohn

Timely topic for me. I've been out of electric for week (still out) staying online with a car alternator hooked to a smokey old lawn mower engine (only one with big enough pulley and wont fit other engines) keeping battery from my pickup charged. Anyway as things go I did stay online enough to find the f1rocketboy and utterpower articles. Looked other sites but again too hard to stay online for hours reading. 

One thing nobody is talking lot about short of privately importing an engine or paying a very generous middleman bonus to that place in Maine is where do you buy the 6/1 in pieces or in crate to be disassembled, cleaned, reassembled without the excess middleman profits? Matter of fact the people in Maine are only ones listing anything with a price. Others just vaguely mention some of the necessary parts might be availbable here or there but no prices, and seems to be very limited quantity. I realize EPA is busy as beavers out there trying to stomp out any small engine (diesels especially) that isnt latest high tech computerized whiz bang for mucho deniro. Still nice to be able to put together an economical package if I am willing to do the grunt work.

Used original Listers also not that common in US I think. I've been to lot auctions in my life, seen lot old hit and miss and other stationary engines, but never a Lister that I remember, though things easy enough to miss if one isnt terribly interested at the time or more interested in something else at the auction.

Also until I could find decent Lister/clone, been looking at ST 1800rpm generator heads. Price is sure decent and looks as heavy duty as I've ever seen. What size small gas engine like Honda would it take to run say 5000watt version. Somewhere around 11hp to 13hp???? With a gas engine you lose thrifty aspect, but for emergency be nice to have lights and able to run freezer once in a while to keep contents in usable condition. I really hate the little consumer buzz box generators designed to last only few hundred hours at best and the noise drives me nuts. One neighbor been running one 24/7 and he is half mile away and still not pleasant to hear.


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## davel745

Again I am not trying to say anything about anybody but the guy at otherpower or utterpower or whatever he calls that site, talks about lister engines, wonât respond to questions and from what I guess as I understand it he picks whom he sells to. At least that is my impression. After reading his site I feel that his stuff is junk anyways. Or badly engineered. I am sure I will hear from someone about this but it is just my feelings.

The guy in Maine is an ok guy, he stands behind his stuff and there is a one year warranty on the equipment he sells. 

I donât know were to get a lister or a clone except from this guy (maybe that is why his price is high). 

Ace Admirer seems to know his stuff and he could be a valuable source of information if not help. (Sorry Ace maybe I presume too much.).

Get an engine and a Marathon electric generator with dual bearings the generator head costs around $2400.00 for a 20000 watt single phase unit. The motor is whatever you can get it for, you need at least a 25 hp engine to run a 20kw generator head. Get a welding shop to fabricate a frame to mount all the stuff to. Pulleys and a fuel system. It still costs $7000.00

The guy in Maine isnât too bad all things considered. High yes but in todayâs market??

Best Regards

Dave


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## artificer

The site in question is http://utterpower.com/. George is a great person to deal with, in my opinion, IF you meet his criteria. He is not in this to make lots of money, and he doesn't want to deal with fools. People that have no mechanical ability and expect to just add fluids to the engine and run one of the listeroids are warned not to buy the engine. He is forward and up front about this. He answers question readily if you've purchased an engine or CD from him. He is retired, however, and he travels a lot. He isn't around 7 days a week, every week. This is his hobby. If you want a store front, and someone sitting at the phone all day, go somewhere else.

The difference between the "guy in Maine" and George is that George wants you to know everything that they've found wrong with the engines. Is the other guy's stuff any better? How do you know? George doesn't sell the engines any more, anyway. He does have custom made parts to improve the engine, as well as the highly useful Listeroid Longevity CD. 

The Lister type (listeroid) engines are not fantastic engines. They are the solution that some people have found for a very long running, very efficient diesel engine that is somewhat affordable. Not many years ago you could get a 6-1 for under $1,000. Now the prices are higher.

If you want an engine that is plug and play, has parts available, will run for a somewhat long time (5000+ hrs?) is rebuildable, take a look at this engine from Surplus Center. 13hp diesel for $600. 

If someone wants an engine for a backup generator, I would say the listeroids are overkill. People are investing in the pre-maintenance/repair in order to get a very long life engine. For a backup unit I would get either the above linked engine, something like it, or a changfa engine.

If you want a really cool project, like the sound of the slow speed engine, have the mechanical ability/desire to work on this engine, then its a good choice.

The newest engine under development over at Utterpower is the Redstone. A Chinese knockoff of the Blackstone. Its a massive engine for the power, should last a lone time, is as easy (easier?) to work on than the listeroids, and doesn't have the QC problems of the Indian engines. My only problem with them, other than I already have the listeroid, is that they are too high in power. If I'm going to run an engine 3-8hrs a day to charge batteries, I want it to be more closely matched to the load.

As for oil change interval, take a look at this page of the rocketboy site. Click on page 11, and you can see the original Lister CS had a 250hr oil change interval.

Michael


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## HermitJohn

artificer said:


> If you want an engine that is plug and play, has parts available, will run for a somewhat long time (5000+ hrs?) is rebuildable, take a look at this engine from Surplus Center. 13hp diesel for $600.


I would hope that engine would last longer than 5000 hour. Richard Perez of Home Power wrote an article sometime back on running a 5hp engine with car alternator to charge batteries. He got 13000+ hours out of a Honda 4.5hp GAS engine. If a diesel cant at least match a small gasoline engine then I sure dont need it. The problem with a lot of diesels is that they are very expensive to rebuild and I'll bet anything the parts to rebuild the one at Surplus Center would cost more than the entire engine and its going to need a machine shop to do quite a bit of work in process, not something average user is going to do at home. So like most modern machines, its a throw away.

I dont care if its used or new as long as I know ahead of time that it is going to have to be rebuilt and is priced accordingly and that parts are available and reasonable which they apparently are. I noticed that Maine guy sells a kit on ebay of all parts to rebuild 6/1 he sells for $500 minus crankcase, crankshaft, and flywheels. So in my notion you should still be able to assemble one of these for $1000 or hopefully less. And there should be some used rebuildable ones out there and some that people bought but decided it wasnt for them for cheaper than $1000, just matter of finding them within reasonable distance. These buggers weigh like 800 pounds for just the 6/1 so shipping is a real concern

And this brings me back to my question of what size gasoline engine would one need to run a 5kw ST powerhead or even a 2kw ST which is smallest I found. ST is 1800rpm 4pole so going to need a bigger engine than one of the cheapie buzz bombs that scream at 3600rpm all the time. This recent ice storm I would have been happy with just enough power to run a fluorescent light, my little freezer, and my laptop. Still no electric at my place but all neighbors surrounding me have power back. And yes electric company knows line is down, its been pointed out to them by me and by the local fire dept and by the state forestry people who had to bring in a bulldozer to make a fire break cause they just willy nilly turn power on without checking for downed lines. I just have a feeling I am going to be the absolute last customer to get power back this time around.


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## Jim-mi

My ES or EM (forget which) 5000 has a 13 hp engine(Honda) . . 

Thats a good point Hermit, for just plain charging batterys the good Honda engines are easy to get and will run a long time turning easy to get alternators . . like Richard P. did.

But those darn Lister's and their multi fuel requirements, long life, slow speed, are still intriguing to me.
Sounds like the listers are a pain to aquire.

Has anybody ever added an outboard oil sump so as filter and greatly increase the interval between shut down/oil changes . . .???


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## davel745

Hermit John.

If you need standby power to keep things sort of going maybe consider a Honda EU unit. They are super quiet the 2000 watt units can be hooked together to produce around 3600 watts. I have no experience with them but from what I read they are highly regarded. They are a bit pricy. But they will be there when you need them. The biggest issue with standby generators is to treat the gas so deposits wonât develop. And to run them periodically.

It takes 13 HP to run my 7500 Watt generator and it is very noisy. A 3600 rpm buzz box. I hate the thing. A big lister isnât too quite either.

So maybe around 6 or 7 hp for a smaller ST generator head depends on the pulley diameters needed to get the required 1800 rpm. Remember starting a electric motor takes something like 2 too 3 times the wattage to get things turning. Extra hp is needed for pull out.
A heavy flywheel will help considerably.

Another consideration is the Central Maine Diesel gives a 1 year warranty and a coolant system option. Beefy mounting rails, And vibration isolation. The basic engine doesnât come with any coolant system. The Central Maine Diesel is very close to a turnkey system for a lister unit. All things considered not a bad deal. 

Shipping on the other hand will be around $200.00. Just a guess more with tail gate service. I believe there are receptacles on the heads. If not the whip end could be wired to a 4 way plug very quickly

A note to Jim-Mi

I believe there is an oil filter kit available. Some come with a filter. As far as a sump to increase oil capacity I donât know anything about that. I am sure it can be done without to much work. 
A Lister can run WVO but needs a kit to do so. Clean fuel no matter what type is super important.

A lister isnât for everyone you do need to have a fair understanding of turning wrenches.

Best Regards

Dave


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## HermitJohn

Yes speed kills and it applies to engines too. Perez ran that Honda at 2200rpm!!! not the 3600 full governed rpm many small engines are run at. the Lister big claim to fame is they do what they do at 650rpm thats only way a crude third world manufactured engine could last the incredible amounts of time these do. And they are old school technology that was designed to be tinkered with and rebuilt at economical cost. Very little of that left today. Even best high end Japanese engine would be challenged to last that kind of time though most likely would require much less maintenence if it did. Now if say Honda were to modernize and build a Lister still running same speed, etc, it would most likely be most amazing and last a hundred years before rebuild. EPA would not be happy.....


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## HermitJohn

davel745 said:


> Hermit John.
> 
> If you need standby power to keep things sort of going maybe consider a Honda EU unit. They are super quiet the 2000 watt units can be hooked together to produce around 3600 watts. I have no experience with them but from what I read they are highly regarded. They are a bit pricy. But they will be there when you need them. The biggest issue with standby generators is to treat the gas so deposits won&#8217;t develop. And to run them periodically.
> 
> It takes 13 HP to run my 7500 Watt generator and it is very noisy. A 3600 rpm buzz box. I hate the thing. A big lister isn&#8217;t too quite either.
> 
> So maybe around 6 or 7 hp for a smaller ST generator head depends on the pulley diameters needed to get the required 1800 rpm. Remember starting a electric motor takes something like 2 too 3 times the wattage to get things turning. Extra hp is needed for pull out.
> A heavy flywheel will help considerably.
> 
> Another consideration is the Central Maine Diesel gives a 1 year warranty and a coolant system option. Beefy mounting rails, And vibration isolation. The basic engine doesn&#8217;t come with any coolant system. The Central Maine Diesel is very close to a turnkey system for a lister unit. All things considered not a bad deal.
> 
> Shipping on the other hand will be around $200.00. Just a guess more with tail gate service. I believe there are receptacles on the heads. If not the whip end could be wired to a 4 way plug very quickly
> 
> A note to Jim-Mi
> 
> I believe there is an oil filter kit available. Some come with a filter. As far as a sump to increase oil capacity I don&#8217;t know anything about that. I am sure it can be done without to much work.
> A Lister can run WVO but needs a kit to do so. Clean fuel no matter what type is super important.
> 
> A lister isn&#8217;t for everyone you do need to have a fair understanding of turning wrenches.
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Dave



Rocketboy article he used an automotive muffler and got his 12/2 fairly quiet. You see its not worth it to me to pay high dollar for standby. I lost far less from stuff in freezer spoiling than it would cost to just run a gasoline generator, let alone buy high doller gen. I am sure the super quiet Honda generators are nice but they are not cheap and they are easy for somebody to walk away with. Sort of like owning a high dollar chainsaw. Try walking away with an 800 pound Lister parked inside a concrete generator house assuming you even wanted it, not something a pawn shop is going to be interested in and you arent going to hawk them in some slum like a pimped Caddilac or Rolex. You could bust it up with a sledge if you had a mind to, but you arent going to easily pick it up and cart it off.

Nope, think for emergency only use probably gas honda powering an ST at 1800rpm would make most sense, preferably with a better designed muffler system. I'd have to experiment getting noise down before going that route. However for longer term a diesel is way to go, either a Lister which I think is close to ideal for me or find a offbrand/older little Japanese diesel tractor for bargain price. It has other uses than just running a generator head and in good shape would hold its value. Parts can be hassle on older/offbrand Japanese stuff though. Read about some guy going around in circles trying to find a starter for an old rare Kubota from 70s. Not greymarket or anything like that, just old.

As to shipping doubt you could ship Lister half way cross country for $200. Or if you meant the ST, then look on ebay, think the 5kw ships little over hundred and the 2kw for flat $90. I wonder if 2kw could be powered by a 6.5 Honda??? I found no info on ST driven by gas engine, just various diesels. For emergency usem the only motor would be little freezer compressor, would think a 2kw could handle that.


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## ace admirer

(Sorry Ace maybe I presume too much.)

yeah, i'm more of a hack at most things i do..but would be glad to help in anyway i could.

i purchased my lister (gm 90) from a Mike Montieth. in ruderforton, north carolina, nice fellow, so i drove 5 hours down to meet him and pick up the engine. his site used to be wwwlisteroids,com or something like that,,,no longer on line. he was a fellow that just ordered a container full of engines from india at a time. and resold them. I guess that anyone of "us" that knew how to deal with overseas shipping could do the same. so it would take container of engines from india, a container of st generators from china.

now the engines have starter ringgears and starters, built in radiators. mine takes a pretty good arm to get it started.


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## mightybooboo

artificer said:


> If you want an engine that is plug and play, has parts available, will run for a somewhat long time (5000+ hrs?) is rebuildable, take a look at this engine from Surplus Center. 13hp diesel for $600.


If that Perkins is the same quality of their older motors that is a STEAL!!!

Thanks for the link Artificer.


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## davel745

It gets max torque at 2400 rpm. It should run for quite awhile. 

This looks like a sweetheart little diesel. It should run a 6000 watt head. 

You could buy a radiator and a small electric pump, a fuel pump, a few 55 gallon barrels for fuel, a generator head with pulleys and be up and running in no time. It is a way to get low cost and good backup power. 

If it could be run at 2400 rpm it will give lots of service life. Thanks for the link

Dave


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## HermitJohn

If you look that "perkins" is rated 13hp at 3600rpm. It may develope max torque at 2400, but may or may not power what you want at that rpm. Also look at the weight. It very light weight for a diesel. There are lot Chinese lightweight clone diesels out there. Could be whoever owns the Perkins name slapped it on. Also dont the Mahindra tractors from India claim to use Perkins engines. It might be an Indian clone of whatever with Perkins name slapped on it. $600 may be petty cash to many, but not looking to throw it away on short lived potentially failed experiment. Only light wieght diesel I'd go for would have to be genuine Japanese quality control. The listeroids are not light weight and super slow rpm and people have had good experiences after spending some time setting them up.

The old Perkins diesels I have no argument with. I have a MF65 and though engine is old and bit more smokey than I care for, it has been super reliable and very good feel about it. Heavy old engine. In general I am not super enthused on diesels, but that one impresses me. Its one I might one day put money into rebuilding. I just like it.

I am looking around locally and may have handle on little Japanese 20hp tractor for very reasonable price with diesel engine in good condition. Close to 40year old, one of first imported, but most parts still available. Set it up to run generator with pto and half throttle and it could work, plus maybe useful as tractor thought dont know exactly what basically a heavy duty garden tractor would do for me other than to power generator. Those mini diesel tractors never seemed lot bang for the buck as tractors but then they usually are crazy priced.


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## davel745

I read some place that running a PTO driven generator wastes a lot of fuel and uses up a tractor. If the PTO speed required is 540 rpm the tractor has to run at near max throttle to get that rpm. And it ties up the tractor. One sort of solution I heard of was to use a tractor with a 2 speed PTO and then use the 1000 rpm PTO output and throttle the tractor back until the shaft turns at 540 rpm. If there is enough hp the tractor would run at a low rpm and use very little fuel. 

As far as the small Perkins diesel it is an alternative choice. Still 3600 RPM will use it up rather quickly, but âifâ it could be run at 2400 rpm it might last longer and still have the torque for pull out for changes in electrical load. Pulley diameters can be matched for a 2400 rpm out put shaft and a 1800 rpm input shaft. I havenât calculated the HP required but a 13 hp gas motor turns a 7500 watt generator with direct coupling. A pulley which has a reduction properly calculated will power 6000 watts. As far as quality I donât know just going by the ad. It might be junk I donât really know anything about the unit just replying to the posts. I personally wouldnât buy on myself but it might be an alternative choice for someone. It is like anything you get what you pay for.


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## HermitJohn

davel745 said:


> I read some place that running a PTO driven generator wastes a lot of fuel and uses up a tractor. If the PTO speed required is 540 rpm the tractor has to run at near max throttle to get that rpm. And it ties up the tractor. One sort of solution I heard of was to use a tractor with a 2 speed PTO and then use the 1000 rpm PTO output and throttle the tractor back until the shaft turns at 540 rpm. If there is enough hp the tractor would run at a low rpm and use very little fuel.
> 
> As far as the small Perkins diesel it is an alternative choice. Still 3600 RPM will use it up rather quickly, but &#8220;if&#8221; it could be run at 2400 rpm it might last longer and still have the torque for pull out for changes in electrical load. Pulley diameters can be matched for a 2400 rpm out put shaft and a 1800 rpm input shaft. I haven&#8217;t calculated the HP required but a 13 hp gas motor turns a 7500 watt generator with direct coupling. A pulley which has a reduction properly calculated will power 6000 watts. As far as quality I don&#8217;t know just going by the ad. It might be junk I don&#8217;t really know anything about the unit just replying to the posts. I personally wouldn&#8217;t buy on myself but it might be an alternative choice for someone. It is like anything you get what you pay for.


This little Kubota I am looking at has two speed pto.... But doesnt really matter, wouldnt use one of those expensive commercial pto generators anyway. Use an ST 1800rpm head. Not that hard to run a jack shaft off a pto and gear it anyway I want with pulleys and belts.


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## artificer

Been gone for the last few days.

Hermit John: The 5000hrs for the diesel is an almost guaranteed number of hours. I would not be surprised to see 3-4 times that when used as a generator, properly preheated before loading, and maintained properly. I checked out the Home Power site and the Honda powered alternators. They said:
"We found that the Honda
small engines will run more than 5,000 hours without
major work, Tecumseh engines about 800 hours, and
Briggs & Stratton engines about 600 hours. The
particular Honda G40 (170 cc, Ã4.5 hp) engine pictured
here has run for over 13,000 hours with the same
rings, bearings and valves."

Still, 5000 hours on a not very expensive engine is great. 13,000 hours is unbelievable.

HP requirements for power: 750watts/hp, and about 80% efficiency with the ST heads, so about 600watts/hp or 1.7hp/kw as a minimum. Max of 80% of rated power as a max gives 2 1/8hp/kw. Dave's 13hp and 7500watts is 1.73hp/kw, which I would read as peak power.

So... an ST5 would take 2.125hp * 5kw or 10 5/8hp. The ST2 would take 4 1/4hp to run it at max power. You could get a Honda 13hp engine, and run it slower, or even direct coupled to the ST5 head. Slower speed should increase life, decrease the annoying screaming sound, and be a decent engine.

6.5hp Honda would power an ST3 head.

Perkins engine: A rough calculation give around 8 3/4hp at 1800rpm for direct couple with a ST5 head. You can only get 4kw out of it, but it makes for a simple setup. If you need more power, use the pulleys, and get up to the 6kwatt using a ST7.5

Jim-mi: I know I've been swayed by the tickita, tickita, tickita sound of the lifters on the Listeroids. If you have good muffler(s), add an intake muffler, balance the machine, and don't mechanically tie it into a building structure, they are VERY quite. Any engine that lets you hear the mechanical noise (NOT the ignition knock) is ok in my book.

I believe that some people have added external oil pumps/filters. Some people with twins have pumped the oil through filters as well. Some people have added diaper filters inside of the case. Many/most add rare earth magnets to the bottom of the sump as well. The 250 hrs for oil changes was for the original Lister CS. Better modern oil may allow greater intervals.

EU2000i generator: I've been running one of these as I build the off grid shed. SWEET generator. Starts even when its -10degF. (Granted, you have to start it several times since the low oil light/safety kicks in.) The actual power output is actually around 1600watts rated, but thats still one fully loaded 110v circuit. Unless you need to run A/C or similar high loads, I would fully suggest it as a reliable backup power source, as long as you have properly stored its gas supply. I would say that these generators are the gold standard when it comes to quite. I run ours inside of the shed I'm building, and I can still watch TV while its charging the batteries, or just waiting for me to make another saw cut.

Quality of Listeroids: I keep thinking that these engines are made by someone that is schizophrenic. Some of the parts are just fantastic: cylinder liners, injector pumps, injectors, bearings... Then you see the sand someone left in the case, and just painted over. This is the reason I tell people that are interested in the Listeroids that they are kit engines. With a little elbow grease, you can have an engine that lasts forever. Other than the gib keys that are sledge hammered into place, everything is very easy to work on, as long as you can handle the weight of the parts. Yes, the engines are based on an old design, but its and old, proven, been running for years design. If India could only find out what QC means...

Shipping of Listeroids: It depends on the seller. I have seen people that can ship anywhere in the lower 48 at $200/pallet. The pallet is standard 42" x 48", and up to 2000lbs. I've also seen quotes for 1200lbs of shipping at over $500 for a single item... I won't mention the amount we spent on our vacation to go from WI to NC for a gen head, then NH for the 12-2, and back. 

PTO generators: One of the old time mantra's of farmers is "Gear up, Speed down." You want to run the engine as slow as possible to do the work you need. A tractor screaming at full RPM to get the rated 540 pto rpm is not a good idea for long term. As a backup its fine, but I would do something different. Unless you're going to be driving a 20kw or more gen head, gear down the gen head, so the tractor can run slower. Either that, or get a grey market Mitsubishi tractor like our D2050FD which has 4 pto gears. Lowest is 540rpm. Even so, the tractor has a 24hp (20hp as the Japaneese rate them) engine. Powering a gen head to get 1-2kw for long periods of time doesn't make sense.

I was running a JD tractor this summer. 110hp I believe, brand new. Fuel useage was somewhere around .2gph on idle, and went up to almost 1gph to get to PTO speeds. Thats without a load. Compare that to the 6-1 getting .125gph, and you can see what an engine properly sized to the load is important if you want to run for long hours. If its only for backup, thats another story.

Michael


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## Jim-mi

The Cat Chalanger 45 that I run grooming the snowmobile trails gets are you ready . . 1 mile to the gallon.
Nothing much to brag about.
Yes the Honda "i" series are top notch. . .
I all so have a Kawasaki 2800i gen. Very nice, and quiet.
Too bad people get all hung up on cheap prices . . . . .thinking that they have really gotten a deal when they plop down $200 for that piece of junk **generator**.


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## mightybooboo

Jim-mi said:


> I all so have a Kawasaki 2800i gen. Very nice, and quiet.
> *Too bad people get all hung up on cheap prices *. . . . .thinking that they have really gotten a deal when they plop down $200 for that piece of junk **generator**.





artificer said:


> EU2000i generator: I've been running one of these as I build the off grid shed. SWEET generator. Starts even when its -10degF. (Granted, you have to start it several times since the low oil light/safety kicks in.) The actual power output is actually around 1600watts rated, but thats still one fully loaded 110v circuit. Unless you need to run A/C or similar high loads, *I would fully suggest it as a reliable backup power source*, as long as you have properly stored its gas supply. I would say that these generators are the gold standard when it comes to quite. I run ours inside of the shed I'm building, and I can still watch TV while its charging the batteries, or just waiting for me to make another saw cut.


Yup,the Kawasaki is just as nice as the Honda.In fact I used one years ago(Late 1980's?),I think it was 800 watts or something? Little Blue suitcase and it was NICE! 

Now have the EU2001-I and it does have one problem,it can have a little rough running on eco mode with low load.Using it more often helps keep it running nice without having to choke it a bit.This is a common problem,and most noticed by folks who rarely run em.

I RELIGIOUSLY run mine a half hour to hour a month and it seems happy. 1st of every month,easy to remember that way.Starts by 3rd pull in snow,if it doesnt you have a problem you need to address.And its an easy pull at that!

As for quiet,I can barely hear it on front porch with door closed at low speed,aware its there at load.On the back service porch I cant hear it in the house in front.

SWEET SWEET SWEET SWEET SWEET! World Class,period.

Use synthetic oil,it cools the engine and thats where synthetics shine,in heat performance.CHEAP insurance to increase longevity.Even if you doubt that STILL do it.You will NOT regret it.


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## ThreeRivers

Has anyone considered using an older model diesel VW Rabbit? You are looking at 1.6 Diesel. 52 horsepower and 71.5 lb.ft torque. I have known of many many of these that with good maintenance have lasted well over 300,000 miles. Mount it in a beam frame and run gen head right off the flywheel maybe? 

I have three in the pasture at my grandfathers. One with blown head gasket because of lack of coolant on sons part. One with almost 375,000 on it and still road worthy. One that we bought with less than 50,000 on it for parts that had been hit in the rear hard. 

Parts kits to rebuild are about 200 bucks for a re-ring kit.


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## artificer

mightybooboo said:


> ...
> Now have the EU2001-I and it does have one problem,it can have a little rough running on eco mode with low load.Using it more often helps keep it running nice without having to choke it a bit.This is a common problem,and most noticed by folks who rarely run em.


I would say that they have bad/old gas. If you run your generator each month, you are replacing the gas every so often. I use a tank of gas each day, or every couple of days. NO! problems with econo mode on the EU2000I. I had one of my co-workers that had one of these generators. Low hours, light loads, and the valves stuck. Bad gas that turned to varnish in the tank. $150 to the dealer later... The solution is to either use all the gas before storage, and then store gas in an air tight container, or use enough gas so its always fresh. I've probably got over 1000 hrs on the Honda, and its still running strong.

ThreeRivers: 52hp is enough for 25kw. If you need that much power, then go for it. If you want max efficiency, you need a smaller engine run at higher loads. Its not a bad option, especially if you can get the engine cheap. If you have to pay more than the $600 for the Perkins, it doesn't make a lot of sense. (at least to me) It would make a nice system if the price was right.

300,000 miles at an average of 50mph gives 6,000 hours. Not bad for a variable speed drive engine. You can get more with the constant speed use as a generator.

Hmmm... direct connect it to the gen head, run it at 1800rpm. AC pump for the shed. Hmmm.... 

Michael


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