# Hay making equipment-compact tractor



## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Have been looking around for a small haybine, rake, bailer suitable to pull behind a 30 Hp compact tractor.
Any ideas?

I would think that with the continuing widespread use of the Ford 2n-9n, 8n, small Farmall etc @ approx. the same hp, that the older equipment would work?

It seem to me that there is now a market to cut, rake and bale hay from small parcels, too small for the larger equipment.

Names, models, sources, experiences would be appreciated.


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## RedneckPete (Aug 23, 2004)

I am also interested. I'd love to know the minimum requirements for making 100 - 200 small square bales a year in a reasonable efficient manner.

Pete


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## Beeman (Dec 29, 2002)

Not much hay was baled with old N series tractors, you can rake with one. My Ford 2600 diesel will process square bales but it's as small as I would use. I'm sure they're making small equip but I'm sure the price isn't small. Most older square balers are extremely well worn and can be expensive to fix.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Beeman said:


> Not much hay was baled with old N series tractors, you can rake with one. My Ford 2600 diesel will process square bales but it's as small as I would use. I'm sure they're making small equip but I'm sure the price isn't small. Most older square balers are extremely well worn and can be expensive to fix.


This is the general drift I have been hearing.

Talking to some of the older farmers in my area, they are telling me that "back in the old days", the equipment wasn't too good and the hp was low, so as the tractors got bigger, they traded in or just parked the older, smaller stuff.

Now the same guys are trying to cut around all the country homes, cabins, and Mac Mansions on 5 acre lots and the newer equipment is to big to maneuver.

Lot of acres out there, just not in large tracts anymore.
A lot of people imported hay from down south last winter, as the flooding and bad winter really cut into the crop last fall.

Talking to some of the horse people, they were telling me that they were paying over a $100 bucks for big round bales and over 5 bucks for small square bales.
They normally get about 7 round bales on the first cutting on my small fields, 5 or less on same fields in the 2nd and 3-rd cutting.

Both neighbors fences the property line, just to mark it and the hay guy is having a heck of a time cutting raking and baling as he can't just go in a straight line any more.

Just seems like an opportunity to me, as it isn't just my fields.


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## m39fan (Apr 11, 2005)

As was said, the N series was used mainly to rake. I wouldn't think that many of the older balers used with other tractors of yesteryear would work well with a modern compact tractor because of mass. That is to say a 30hp tractor of yesterday had much more size and weight than a modern compact. Weight/mass is especially important with older balers as the ram will tear a new tractor up quickly (as my neighbor found out).

Your best bet, if you really want to bale, is to make an investment in one of the new import balers such as those found here: http://www.wolagriusa.com/ Just get ready for sticker shock!!!!

A smaller rake should be easier to find than the baler. Any converted horse drawn or 2nd generation tractor pulled rake would work and save you a little $ you could put towards a baler.

Truthfully, unless you're doing A LOT of acreage, you'll probably be better off hiring it done even with the high fuel/hay prices. What we found to be most cost effective is to cut and rake ourselves and hire someone to bale. Just something to consider.

HTH,
Mike


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

there are no small, older, self-powered balers out there? i am curious too as there are many small areas left around here, but not many big fields. those new compacts are just way too expensive.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

I would never buy new equipment. Too many people have perfectly usable stuff that's sitting out in their bone yards waiting for someone to come along who needs it enough to fiddle with it and make it run. 

For us, we'd get at least an M (I _think_ that's the step larger than an N). A wheel rake if we can find one, otherwise an old dump rake. A sickle bar mower and a little square baler that's been revitalized after a decade or three out in the tree rows, and away we go.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

ErinP said:


> I would never buy new equipment. Too many people have perfectly usable stuff that's sitting out in their bone yards waiting for someone to come along who needs it enough to fiddle with it and make it run.
> 
> For us, we'd get at least an M (I _think_ that's the step larger than an N). A wheel rake if we can find one, otherwise an old dump rake. A sickle bar mower and a little square baler that's been revitalized after a decade or three out in the tree rows, and away we go.


With a 30 hp tractor you can do anything except bale with it. All of the tractors today have a sickle bar mower that is made for them or a 3 pt hitch and a side delivery rake is the best. I have pulled a side delivery rake with a 20 hp tractor or a pickup and it did fine. If you find a self powered baler you can bale a lot of hay before you begin to notice any wear on your tractor.


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## Scrounger (Jan 6, 2007)

Actually - you CAN bale with an 8n or 30 hp tractor. Dad baled thousands of small squares with his IHC "H", which had a rated drawbar HP of LESS then and 8N. Where the Ford was lacking was in weight. If you had flat land, the 8N would bale just fine with a PTO baler. A man near here farmed his land COMPLETELY with an 8N up until he retired (at 83) a couple years ago. He plowed, disced, planted, harvested, mowed, cut, and baled with it. There were also balers made into the 90's that had aux engines to run the baler. Most any of the older balers can also be converted (by adding a horizontal shaft lawn mower motor....). 
There are lots of the old balers that were "retired" only because they were to small, or slow, or they were replaced by round balers. If you look around, there are - depending on your location - good used hay equipment for cheap. There are still good dependable balers out there for under $400. Rakes, for under $100, and sickle mowers for $200. It can be done for a lot less then people think. 

If you want small round bales, you can also look into the old Allis-Chalmers Rotobaler. They made good small bales and a small HP tractor can run them with ease. If you go that route, you can come buy the two I have in SE Nebraska!

The point is, YES YOU CAN do a lot of work with smaller HP tractors (30 and under), as long as you don't start believing people who tell you that you can't.


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## Scrounger (Jan 6, 2007)

hunter63 said:


> Have been looking around for a small haybine, rake, bailer suitable to pull behind a 30 Hp compact tractor.
> Any ideas?
> 
> I would think that with the continuing widespread use of the Ford 2n-9n, 8n, small Farmall etc @ approx. the same hp, that the older equipment would work?
> ...


What tractor do you have?
Check around at farm sales for Cat 1 equipment. Most of them go cheap because everyone wants the bigger stuff. If you are handy, you can do any modifications it MIGHT need. Most of the Dearborn or Ford equipment will work on newer tractors. Just make sure it is Cat 1. I have a small 3 point John Deere Lister (planter) for corn, milo, etc that I bought at a sale for $7. A LOT of corn has gone through it. My dearborn rake was $35. I use a neighbors New Holland 273 Hayliner to bale. One of the best balers made. Any New Holland rake will cost you, but they are nice. My rake is "ground driven" - and they will be cheaper then PTO rakes.


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## ericjeeper (Feb 25, 2006)

Our super 69 will work the stuffings out of our 45 horse diesel tractors.. Make the governors chug at every stroke.. Not to mention how hard it pushes and pulls on the tractor.
As for an 8N They have went way down in price lately.. Used to be 3500 a few years ago. Now you see them for 1800-2000.
I would rather have any diesel tractor over an 8n.


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## stonefly71 (Apr 14, 2003)

if you have a small area what about the walk behind baler you see in some of the mags. I'd like to know if anyone has one of these and how do they do?


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

I use an old Allis WD (35 HP) and it pulls my John Deere 24T baler OK. I don't use a wagon behind since I bale some small areas so that lets the tractor put more horses to the PTO.
A lot of these new compacts look nice but I would be afraid to put my baler or even my old 2 bottom plow on some of them. Course they might take it OK. 

I picked up an old New Idea trailer mower for 350, a crimper for 125, and bought the baler for 700. It has taken a bit more to get the mower and crimper in decent shape but they worked pretty good this morning till I tried to mow a piece of rebar when I got too close to a rock pile. Most parts for mowers like guards and sickle sections and even pitman arms are still available at most farm stores.
I like a mower since some of the gates I go through are narrow and even a 7 foot haybine would have problems getting through plus I can do the side of the road without dropping a wheel in the ditch and banging up the cutterbar.
If you're looking at stuff you can't go wrong with New Holland, some of the best haying equipment ever made and their old balers hold up well.
Other makes I would recommend are Gehl, New Idea, Hesston, and most John Deere stuff.
Old International balers were a joke. We could never stuff those like a New Holland.
Massey balers were pretty reliable. I happen to have a smaller one for sale.......
I see you're from WI. If you're close to Mosinee there is a place just east of the airport that deals in older stuff. I've bought a few things there and they're easy to deal with.
There's a guy in Milan (near Athens) that deals mostly in parts but he may be able to get equipment if you ask him to keep an eye open.
Kinda late for auctions but there are deals to be found at those if you're in the right place at the right time.


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## Beeman (Dec 29, 2002)

8Ns have dropped a lot because of the supply of small tractors, mostly imports. there was a time not long ago that N's were holding value as working tractors because there were no small hobby tractors available. Now that's the biggest seller at some dealers unless you're in large farm areas. 
When low power gas tractors were all there were some balers were self powered with their own motor. There are plenty of old balers out there and there's a reason for it. Now if you're a baler mechanic or have a friend/relative that can fix it when it breaks, they only break when there's hay down and rain coming, you might get some work out of it until you get fed up and park it for the next guy.
Hay is expensive for a lot of reasons and the price of equipment is part of it.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

I know what you mean about the 8n's, everybody got on an old tractor trip, and prices went shy high, but on the advice of an old tractor collector, "If you want to play with your tractor, buy an old one, if you want to do some work, buy a new one."

I have a Mahindra 30hst, 30 hp diesel, 4 wheel-hydro static drive.
Had if for three years now and and very pleased with it.

Got it at a John Deere dealer, most JD dealers around here sell them, as a lot of the parts interchange, and I have very good dearler support.

Here is my BIL cutting grass, kinda sucked him in, alla Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn










I guess I'm gonna have to visit some farm shows and auctions, names and models are still appreciated.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

One says use a dump rake to make windrows with, and that wont work worth a d as the hay has to be turned and twisted as by a side rake so that it hangs together like a loose rope for the bailer to pull in, and another says to mount a garden tractor engine on a bailer to make it work. Thatll only work if your craweling and bailing the lawn.


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## Scrounger (Jan 6, 2007)

FarmBoyBill said:


> One says use a dump rake to make windrows with, and that wont work worth a d as the hay has to be turned and twisted as by a side rake so that it hangs together like a loose rope for the bailer to pull in, and another says to mount a garden tractor engine on a bailer to make it work. Thatll only work if your craweling and bailing the lawn.


The lawn mower engine would be a 17 HP+. Works like a charm in even heavy hay. Thats all the old "self powered" balers were. They used a small engine to turn the baler PTO. 
As far as the dump rake. They will do fine for baling. They take longer to dry and should be rolled over, but they will work. 
Like I said - the only thing stopping people is their ability to let others convince them it CAN'T be done.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

I think an old square baler would eat that tractor alive.

However if you want specifics New Holland 67s and 68s and 270s are very good balers.
John Deere 14T and 24Ts are very good balers.
IH 45 balers are to be shunned.
Massy Fergusen 3, 12, and 124s are OK balers.
Ford 532s were popular but I have never liked any farm machinery with the Ford name on it myself.

New Idea 30As were good mowers.
New Holland 450 and 451s are good mowers.
New Holland made a mower conditioner called the 460 that could be equipped with a 6 bat reel instead of 4 and you could really put hay through with that.
469s and 499s are quite good machines if you want to have a sickle bar machine.
Hesston PT 7s and PT10s were decent haybines.
New Idea made something called a cutditioner that used flails instead of a sickle bar and threw the hay against a flat surface to condition it. Quite a machine and you could go through stuff that would make a sickle bar machine cry.
Nowadays they have disc bines but I don't have any experience with them. I have heard they are the cats meow when new but as they age maintenance is an issue..
2 rubber rollers vs 1 steel and 1 rubber arguments have been going on since the mower conditioner was invented so I won't say much about that. If you are buying used and the roll(s) are rubber make sure that they are in good repair and not missing big chunks. New rollers are pricey and getting them rerubbered isn't too cheap anymore either if you can find a place to do it.
The same goes for a crimper if you decide to go with the mower crimper combo instead of a haybine. Although a lot of older crimpers are double steel rolls.

Rakes can be cheap or they can be pricey.
A new Holland 256 will run you upwards of 2000.
A good 5 bar New Idea can be about half that.
John Deere has a 350 that's 3pt mounted and pto driven that rolls hay pretty good.
An old long 4 bar with big steel wheels maybe a couple hundred if it's in good shape and you aren't good at bargaining.
Newer ones with smaller rubber tires will do a good job of rolling hay and you can take them down the road faster than ones on steel wheels.
If you find an old 3 bar that can be reversed to run as a tedder it might be something to look at but in over 30 years of farming I've never used a tedder myself.
Never used a wheel rake but I hear the old ones were next to useless.
Most teeth for rakes can be found at farm stores yet.

A good sense of humor and a mechanical aptitude is required to work with the older stuff but it can and is being done by a lot of people.

If you would like to price new cool stuff check out this page..
http://www.tractorconnection.com/HayHayHay.html


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

You want to think about the kinds of fields you're going to be baling. Never been to Wisconsin but I get the impression it can be kind of like here... some flat places, some steep places, and in between. Unless your BIL just leans for fun it looks like you already found a bit of a slope.

An old 30 hp tractor here will run most old square balers on flat ground. Get them on hills and they aren't heavy enough to hold the baler back, end up sliding down hill sideways or jacknifed or worse. Not fun. I REALLY wouldn't want to have an even lighter 30 hp compact trying to hold a baler on anything steeper than.... well much steeper than a basketball court actually. 

I wouldn't risk my life hooking a square baler onto that tractor on any kind of slope.


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## Stephen in SOKY (Jun 6, 2006)

I wonder if his hydro units will stand pulling/holding back a baler? Rake or mower yes, but balers on any slope at all get pretty hard to handle.


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## vallyfarm (Oct 24, 2006)

Hydro's generally don't hold up well to repeatd shocks like plowing with rocks around, or the plunger slamming on a bailer. I've haybined and bailed with a kicker on hilly ground for years with a Farmall Super H. The big thing, other than weight in a tractor is torque. While an 8N may spec out to more HP than my Farmall, I have gobs and gobs more torque. Also, it depends on how old a tractor you are using. Those older tractors, be it a Farmall, Ford, JD, etc. are built WAY more stoute. The PTO on a newish compact would have twisted out with what I put my Farmall through on a daily basis. There ARE some old bailers that have their own pony motors and that is a viable option. Then all you would need is power to pull, not run the bailer. It seems the old JD bailers with pony motors seem to be most prevailent around my area. I would sugest starting with a good old tractor if you want to try this idea out. My lawnmower has 26 HP, but can't hold a candle to what a 30 yr old mower with 10 HP can doo. Same goes for tractors. A new 30 HP tractor is designed to pull a mower, carry a few bales in the loader, and look pretty in the heated garage. Mike


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## Scrounger (Jan 6, 2007)

On that note - My BIL has a Kioti CK-30 (couldn't pay me to own one). He was told by the dealer not to try farming with it and not to try baling. He ended up using a Rotobaler and it does ok for the little he uses it. Most of the newer tractors today thaqt are made in Korea, China, and other places are glorified lawnmowers. Mahindra is an exception, as is Kubota. Both of these are good machines. Manhindras are built really stout. 
As far as the 8N goes - they can surprise you. I've seen mine do things my bigger tractors won't do. 

Another thing that you might consider is live PTO. While to me, it doesn't make much difference (I grew up without it), some people swear you MUST have it to do ANYTHING.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

I think your super H will spec better than an 8N all around.
the 8N ran about 25-26 HP
and the Super H was about 33.

Pony motors on balers are usually a lot bigger than a lawnmower engine. Maybe not in HP but in size and "umph" A big old Wisconsin v-4 is nothing like a 2 cyl Briggs.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

The minimum that I would want for haying would be
1) 40 HP tractor with live pto
2) 7 ft sickle mower
3) 2 basket tedder
4) 256 New Holland rake
5) 273 New Holland baler
I would expect to invest
1) $5000
2) 375
3) 600
4) 1600
5) 1200 
for a total of $8775......With this I feel that I could go to the field and expect to bale rather than to the shop to mechanic while the hay goes bad or gets rained on.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

I didn't read all the replies.....

An older baler (JD 14T, 24T, or a New Holland 69 through 271) are good older balers _if_ they were maintained & stored in a shed.

For a tractor you need 25 hp, you would like 35hp or more. Much, much more important, is you want a live pto on the tractor!!!!! This allows you to push in the clutch to stop forward motion, but the baler still gets power to keep baling. This allows you to work through heavy bumps in the windrow. Without live pto, you push in the clutch to stop over-feeding the baler, and the baler stops too, instantly plugging up the baler. Not fun.

A problem with compact tractors - they might have 30 hp, but they are built light. Their drive train can only take 30 hp..... A baler uses about 15 hp to keep running - but it stores about 50 hp in that flywheel on it. So, your tractor needs to be able to handle the back-feed & shock a baler puts on it. Many compacts are not built heavy enough to take a baler. You get the tail wagging the dog, and it is not a good thing.


You might hear about older balers with their own engine on them, your tractor just pulls it around the field. Yup, that will work - but they are miserable things to keep running. And the baler is much heavier now. Yuk.

Round balers typically take 50-100 hp. There are some round baler imports that are pretty new that are tiny, would work with a 20 hp compact - but they cost 10 grand or so......

Back over 50 years ago Allis Chalmers made a roto baler - it made small round bales the size of a square baler. Could work with a compact.... The bales were a little odd, the baling was a little slow, and well - how many are left out there in good working shape?

So, making hay with a compact: You want a real big compact tractor, you want to check with the manufaturer if it can take the shock load of a square baler, and you want to have a live (or independent...) pto.

We can get by with less; a lot of hay has been baled with Ford 8N tractors with 28 hp and no live pto. But it is not fun........ It is not something you will be happy doing after your regular job.... Ick.

--->Paul


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## Dirtslinger (Feb 10, 2007)

From my own research on this, I decided to not waste money on haying equipment that depreciates, but rather save all that money, time and labour, and buy bales as required for our 6 month winter.


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## michiganfarmer (Oct 15, 2005)

MELOC said:


> those new compacts are just way too expensive.


look at that. Someone understands. 

Id buy almost anything other than a modern compact.

A farmall super M is 45 horse,costs around $5000, and is very nimble. An Alice Chalmers WD45 is 45 horse and less than $5000, and also is extremely easy to get in small gardens, and in such places. john deere 720 diesel is 60 horse, and around $4000. Im sure ford has some good tractors with plenty of inexpensive horse power. 

Compact tractors are way way way over priced, under powered, and require expensive custom equipment. 

THere are lots of good old tractors out there and good smaller equipment


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## Mr.Hoppes (Sep 30, 2006)

Ok folks you all seem to have a lot of information. Hows about one of you do a tutorial or Guide for Newby (Dummies) on the Haying process. I am new to the farming life and have little to NO CLUE. Problem being I have animals eat / bed in hay/ straw. To furster complicte the matter I have a generous neighboor was has land and has said I can have the hay that grows at no cost. Thisis a mixed feild and well suited to my needs. The costs of hay/ straw is not going to go down and I also would like to pine bale as well. Unfortunately the knowledge is what I am lacking in. I know how to and have used many many tractors and large equipment ( Think Military ) This neighbor would also allow me to use his tractor to do the baling. Good neighbors are hard to find and I was blessed with a great neighbor. I currently am planning on hand baling as much as I can but this will be very labor intensive. Last season after the hay was cut I simply raked it up by hand and fed directly to the animals. But much was wasted, which I HATE waste.

So anyone care to do a Haying 101 ? from it's a feild of hay to it's in the barn ready for winter ?:soap:


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## diehard47 (Apr 24, 2005)

This site might be helpful www.smallfarminnovations.com


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## michiganfarmer (Oct 15, 2005)

diehard47 said:


> This site might be helpful www.smallfarminnovations.com


That is pretty neat!


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## Scrounger (Jan 6, 2007)

I just remember back to how Dad and Grandpa did it, and snicker when people say it can't be done.


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

I've seen a tractor of 28hp run a small baler. my favorite tractor on the farm is my 444 international. its about 45 horse. I love it. its small, nimble, easy to get off n on. power steering is better than my truck. I run a 273 nh kicker baler. people said, "oh it wont run the kicker, take that off". Like I'd listened to that. I can pull the baler with 2 wagons and the kicker would make the hay to the second wagon. Altho I dont do that we just tried it for fun...lol 

theres a book I purchased called "small scale haymaking", through country workshop by spencer yost. its a good book, get it before you buy anything. its just the info you are looking for. the book states look for a tractor that generates at least 30- 45 hp on the pto shaft. its all about how to run this older equipmment. and dont forget the older equipment has less safety features. its extremely dangerous. be safe. always shut everything down befor you mess with things. 

check out this page, http://www.cdc.gov/NIOSH/pto.html 

this is the baler type I have and the guy I bought it from said this is just how his dad died. he bent down by this shaft and it caught the back of his shirt and shedded him. 

also go on ebay and buy the manuals for all your equipment it comes in handy. good luck, hay isnt fun to make a living with and very dangerous.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

Mr.Hoppes said:


> So anyone care to do a Haying 101 ? from it's a feild of hay to it's in the barn ready for winter ?:soap:



Already been done.

http://www.sheepscreek.com/rural/haying.html

He also has one on pastures.

--->Paul


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

Scrounger said:


> I just remember back to how Dad and Grandpa did it, and snicker when people say it can't be done.


Back in your grandad's day, that was about the best available.... You made do with what you had, and you made your living at it, so you made things work.

Today folks want to make hay outside of their regular 40 hour work week...... They want to do it as a hobby (fun!) and so forth.

As you say, it _can_ be done with a 28 hp non-live pto tractor. Millions of bales have been made that way. It's what the farmer had on his farm, so he made do.

If you are starting out hobby farming, buy something better - that will get the job done for you, be safer to operate, and more fun to do.

Should we be advising people on what is barely possible, or on what is useful & practical & safer?

I have a tractor & baler that have been paired together over 40 years. Live pto, 10 speed tractor, only 35 hp but it works _very_ well with the independent pto & hi/lo gear. On a good day this tractor would barely bring $2000. Why buy an N for more money with less capibilities for making hay????

--->Paul


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Thanks, guys!
I don't think that I have seen as much good information in one thread for a long time.

Yes, I have a lot of slopes,(hence the 4 wheel drive), the hydro drive allows you to drive at any speed allowing the PTO to stay at what ever speed you set the throttle at.

Comments about weight of the unit were very helpful, as grade and weight does matter a LOT (found out mowing on side hills).

As I don't have any animals of my own just yet, it will allow me to take all this info, get out in the field and do some more lookin' and askin'.

I am seeing a market for custom mowing and baling in small plots as more and more houses end up plopped into the middle of former fields.
The quest continues...........


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## Scrounger (Jan 6, 2007)

I didn't say to buy an 8N for baling hay, I aid it CAN bale hay. What I am meaning is that you don't need fancy, high dollar equipment to bale or most anything else. The smaller tractors (like the 8N and the IHC "H") are capable of doing jobs that we are told they can't do. 
Sure, the world has changed, but that doesn't mean things done in the past automatically become "un-doable".
My point is - it HAS been done and CONTINUES to be done.


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

Lots of interesting stuff here.

My uncle bales with a NH baler and a Farmall M on mostly flat ground. He says that sometimes it is easier to make your passes that are the safest for the operator.

Whatever you buy, get the manual that goes along with it. Ebay is loaded with manuals at great prices.

There are some great deals to be had on used balers, and since you are mechanically inclined, you should have no problems working on it yourself, or repairing the knotters.
Just buy the manual, it is worth its weight in gold, and will save you untold hours of work. Most of the manuals show how to retime the knotters, set the drive chains, etc.

I will say this: If you can't get into tight corners with your baler/rake, you could always hand cut it using a sythe or weedeater. I have raked plenty of corners and tight spots when I was a young man bucking bales. That would always be one of the first jobs before baling. The farmer would hand me a large leaf rake, and I would rake the corners and fence rows into the wind rows. I wasn't there for mowing, so I am assuming that he could cut the corners with a sickle bar. 

Clove


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

I have an 8n and I wouldn't even think about trying to bale with it. I have a 7 foot ford sickle bar that is to big for it (might handle a 6 foot, don't know). It works ok with a 5 foot brush hog on it but is a little weak going up hills with it running.

For those who want to know , here is the HP rating for 8n:

Power: 
Drawbar (rated): 23.16 hp [17.3 kW] 
Drawbar (max): 20.8 hp [15.5 kW] 
PTO (max): 25.5 hp [19.0 kW] 

As you can see, it is a bit less than some folks have posted here. Personally I would look at 35hp as about the minimum to run a baler. And that would be the bare minimum on flat ground if you were using a kicker and hauling a wagon.

One of the problems with the older equipment that people are suggesting is that it is prone to breaking down just when you need them the most. Many farmers I know have two balers, rakes, haybines or mowers (and even tractors) because they can't afford to be spending time on fixing when they get that stretch of non-rain days to get the hay in.

This is why we are fencing our hay pastures to run highland cattle. I'll buy just enough rounds to get through the worst of winter (and risk having to buy a few more if there is a longer/late stretch of bad weather). 

Mike


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## unioncreek (Jun 18, 2002)

I use a 49 Farmall M, John Deere #5 mower, Farmhand wheel rake and a IH #27 baler. The tractor is the only item that is really worth anything , but it's all paid for. I have baled up to 1000 bales a year and I haul it all with a 16 foot car trailer. 

I have heard of compact tractors having rearend problems due to pulling a baler, they evidently work the rearend too hard and they fail. I don't know wheter all of them are like that. If you look around you can find some good old equipment. 

Bob


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## Scrounger (Jan 6, 2007)

Mike in Ohio said:


> I have an 8n and I wouldn't even think about trying to bale with it. I have a 7 foot ford sickle bar that is to big for it (might handle a 6 foot, don't know). It works ok with a 5 foot brush hog on it but is a little weak going up hills with it running.


Hmmmm. Mine handles a 7' bar just fine. My Brush hog is a 5', but I have used a 6' with no problems. Even the Dearborn and Ford mowers designed for 8N's had 7' bars. I HAVE baled with an 8N before (NH 273 baler, PTO version). It was on fairly flat land and no rack. It can be done. It all depends on the lay of the land and what you're baling (this was grass).

On the other note:
We've all been conditioned to believe that we NEED new, fancy, equipment. Take live PTO, for instance. Is it nice to have - YOU BETCHA. Is is a "must have"? NO! 

One of the principals of (so called) "homesteading", is to be self reliant, FRUGAL, and productive. IMHO, buying expensive equipment just because you THINK you NEED to have it for something that can be done without it, is counter productive. Just my opinion, not attacking anyone. 

A few posts ago someone asked if there are many of the old AC Rotobalers still running. It depends on what part of the country you are in. Here in SE Nebraska, there are several - I have two myself. One just needs 3-4 belts and it is ready to roll. The other needs belts and a pickup chain. While fairly complicated looking, they really aren't that bad. I don't like the little round bales, but the machines do work. My BIL also has two - one working, one for parts. He uses it behind his Kioti glorified lawn mower. I will probaly end up scrapping these two unless I can find someone who wants them.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Scrounger,

Our place has hills. Going downhill or on a level isn't bad but going uphill it just doesn't have the oomph. Don't get me wrong, 8n's are nice little utility tractors but they have their limits.

What's ironic to me is that a lot of people say you need to get the overriding clutch. I haven't, just means I need to plan ahead a little bit <G>

Mike


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

I live in rolling hill country. With a sizable baler behind a 8n and no over running clutch and you happen to get started down hill disaster is only seconds away. I concern myself more with stopping the light tractors as compared to pulling with them. It is unnerving when you are in a downhill direction and both rear tires are locked and not turning and the rig is speeding up rather than slowing.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Scrounger, Do you have any Pic's?

P.S. I found these pic's, is this the one's your talking about?

http://alltractorsusa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?=&p=11651

Guy kinda sounds like you?


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## Scrounger (Jan 6, 2007)

Those are my balers!
I don't think I've posted on that site for over a year!

While I agree with you that an 8N is not the most "practical" choice for a baling tractor, the point I am trying to make isn't about an 8N.
It's about not having to have high dollar, new, or fancy equipment to accomplish things around the farm. 

If I listened to all the "you can't do that" or "it can't be done" or "It won't work", comments I have recieved over the years, I'd be broke, in the poor house and probably nuts (of course, I might be nuts anyway.....).


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## brosil (Dec 15, 2003)

I bale with my Farmal H and a Oliver 520 baler.


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## mduncn52 (Sep 8, 2007)

Mr Hoppes: Your tutorial might be found in this book I have read twice now. Small-Scale Haymaking by Spencere Yost. Published by Voyageur Press. (voyageurpress.com) I bought it a TSC. Fun read and if I ever get to haymaking I think this book will be a good reference


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## RebootMyself (Jan 11, 2008)

Just for reference, I've run a square baler (producing normal size bales -- 50-70lb) behind a 4wd Ford 1700 compact (approx 24 PTO HP). Never had any problem operating it. I have relatively flat ground and only produced about 100 bales, but no reason I couldn't have done more. My BIL ran it on a JD B (hand start, no less). He had more trouble than I did on hills (from a power perspective, but not mass). I used a dump rake that was rigged with a hitch for the tractor to put the hay in rows and a 7' sickle bar mower to lay it down. Also handled that without any problem. It is worth noting that the 1700 had 12 forward gears--I certainly wasn't in the lowest, but not in the highest (comfortable) gear for the field, either. I do know that starting the flywheel on the baler made the tractor take notice.

BTW, you have to be careful when talking about torque comparisons for PTO power. PTO horsepower is rated at 540rpm (for most tractors discussed in this thread)--this means that 20 PTO HP is 20 PTO HP (the torque is constant). For driving the wheels, it may look a little different, but from a PTO horsepower perspective the torque is the same regardless of the machine if you're talking about 540 RPM (torque * rpm = HP). That isn't to say the torque curves are all the same, but I'm not sure there's enough difference to talk about here. Usually, torque is fairly similar when driving the wheels when running PTO driven equipment, too, since you are often running at the peak point for the engine to get the PTO RPM/max HP and, if you have equivalent gearing (including wheel/tire size), you get the same effective torque to move the machine, even if the engine torque looks higher on the lower RPM engines.


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## mamahen (May 11, 2002)

We have a Massey 50 tractor. We cut hay with a sickle mower, rake with an ancient rake (big & heavy), and bale with a IH 65. Our fields are all on a slope, no flat at all. We also plow & disc the garden with it. And plow snow.

Never have had a problem yet. BUT we are getting a new tractor tonight:bouncy: Keeping the Massey & getting a IH. Can never have too many tractors


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## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

About those Wisconsin pony motors on balers. We have an old skidsteer, and when DH was rebuilding the engine, he found a old one just like it for parts - it had come off a baler.

We can lift and carry 1800 lb round bales with the skidsteer, so I think the motor has a bit more power than some might expect.

Oh, and just to keep a bit more on topic, we have an Oliver 1800, but hire the neighbor to bale our hay. We get 20 - 30 large round bales a year. We came close to buying a small square baler when we lived in WI, they are very hard to find here in SD. Wish we had one, we could make money selling square bales off our alflafa field to the horse folks, and buying grass hay for our needs.

Cathy


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## FreeRanger (Jul 20, 2005)

I have 1955 Ford 600 model 640 (no live PTO) NOT BIG ENOUGH for Wisconsin hills...REALLY gotta have live PTO to use my NH 66 baler ($100 plus parts) (which just broken AGAIN!) or it will plug often.

Love my NH 256 rake (best purchase at $750)
My New Idea Model 251 sickle mower ($100) just broke down too...
Can't use my NH 479 ($650) haybine with the Ford 600 right now, no hydraulics.

So I pay to have my 16 acres cut and baled by farmer with thrower. I try to rake if I have the time, to save money.

The biggest problem is I am at the mercy of the neighbor on when to bale. Haven't cut the first crop yet. Maybe Saturday???

I'm ready to sell the old Ford and trade up to something with hydraulics and live PTO. Clutch just went out on Monday while I was driving down the hill.....man I did not need that to happen.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

You have given me a ray of hope! 



Scrounger said:


> Actually - you CAN bale with an 8n or 30 hp tractor. Dad baled thousands of small squares with his IHC "H", which had a rated drawbar HP of LESS then and 8N. Where the Ford was lacking was in weight. If you had flat land, the 8N would bale just fine with a PTO baler. A man near here farmed his land COMPLETELY with an 8N up until he retired (at 83) a couple years ago. He plowed, disced, planted, harvested, mowed, cut, and baled with it. There were also balers made into the 90's that had aux engines to run the baler. Most any of the older balers can also be converted (by adding a horizontal shaft lawn mower motor....).
> There are lots of the old balers that were "retired" only because they were to small, or slow, or they were replaced by round balers. If you look around, there are - depending on your location - good used hay equipment for cheap. There are still good dependable balers out there for under $400. Rakes, for under $100, and sickle mowers for $200. It can be done for a lot less then people think.
> 
> If you want small round bales, you can also look into the old Allis-Chalmers Rotobaler. They made good small bales and a small HP tractor can run them with ease. If you go that route, you can come buy the two I have in SE Nebraska!
> ...


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## Scrounger (Jan 6, 2007)

Macybaby said:


> About those Wisconsin pony motors on balers. We have an old skidsteer, and when DH was rebuilding the engine, he found a old one just like it for parts - it had come off a baler.
> 
> We can lift and carry 1800 lb round bales with the skidsteer, so I think the motor has a bit more power than some might expect.
> 
> ...


Another thing that needs realized is that the lifting power of a skidsteer is not necessarily due to the motor - there are hydraulics involved. There are several good backhoes, skidsteers and other equipment built around 18-20 HP Kohler motor......


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## soulsurvivor (Jul 4, 2004)

Talked with my brother last night. I knew he was using old equipment to cut and bale, he has 1600 small square bales in one barn, another 1400 in another barn and 800 still on the ground. He's using a 20/20 1968 John Deere tractor with a 1972 John Deere square baler. His haybine is the newest. It's a 1992. He uses his 1957 Farmall 230 to pull the rake and wagons. The rake is the same one our dad used when we were on the farm. My brother still has dad's 1952 Farmall tractor. He just recently bought a hay elevator and said he bought the hay baler off a guy that had had it sitting in his garage for several years. He paid $3000 for it. He said it was like new and hardly used. He claims that a new small square baler would cost around $17000.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Ive baled with an IH "H" and a case and a case 1270 ...the 1270 is better that said I just yesterday used a Kabota with hydrostat WOW what a pleasurethat is inthe hayfeild!
Id just guess that a good size hydro might be the way to go.


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## Scrounger (Jan 6, 2007)

fantasymaker said:


> Ive baled with an IH "H" and a case and a case 1270 ...the 1270 is better that said I just yesterday used a Kabota with hydrostat WOW what a pleasurethat is inthe hayfeild!
> Id just guess that a good size hydro might be the way to go.


Yeah a "good sized" hydro, but not a smaller one. IMHO Hydros are good for mowers and loaders, but just don't have the feel and power of a geared machine.


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## travlnusa (Dec 12, 2004)

Cut and rake your own hay if you would enjoy doing so, but hire out the baling. Guy around here makes large squares, and charges $1/ft of bale made.


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## Scrounger (Jan 6, 2007)

I dunno. I can bale it WAY cheaper then I can hire someone to else to do it. Most people I know don't have the time to bale for someone else, and the "for hire" guys charge a mint. Also, if you have a small field, they are less likely to want to do it.


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## vallyfarm (Oct 24, 2006)

ReootMyself, torque is torque is NOT true! If I hook a chain up to my Super H (30hp) and my truck (150 hp) the truck in 4wd, both weighing the same, that truck will only se foward movement in the rearview mirror. That is a promise. Hook up an 8n (25 hp) and see what it can do, now pull that engine and put in the one out of my lawnmower (25 hp) now see what it can do. Compare a smallblock vs. a bigblock engine with the same hp and tell me torque is the same. Those old long stroke engines have soooooo much more torque and lugging ability than the new short stroke engines they don't even fit in the same arena. As for reliable, my Super H is on it's first engine (1953). I got it 20 years ago, and the only money it has cost me is new brake disks ($50) I rewired it this spring ($30), gas and oil. I highly doubt any new machine can compare to that cost of ownership. Good equipment, when built well in the first place, costs little to maintain. Our bailer was bought new in the mid 60's. Had to replace two kicker belts and the knotter timing chain. It has seen hundereds of thousands of bales go through it. I doubt ANY new piece of equipment can compare to the quality of older equipment. A used $500 machine can be rebuilt to new for much less than the $20-50,000 a new piece will cost. I, and many other can run their whole operation for more than a decade on what a new sub-compact tractor that is only good to mow a lawn costs. Mike


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## RebootMyself (Jan 11, 2008)

vallyfarm said:


> ReootMyself, torque is torque is NOT true! If I hook a chain up to my Super H (30hp) and my truck (150 hp) the truck in 4wd, both weighing the same, that truck will only se foward movement in the rearview mirror. That is a promise. Hook up an 8n (25 hp) and see what it can do, now pull that engine and put in the one out of my lawnmower (25 hp) now see what it can do. Compare a smallblock vs. a bigblock engine with the same hp and tell me torque is the same. Those old long stroke engines have soooooo much more torque and lugging ability than the new short stroke engines they don't even fit in the same arena. As for reliable, my Super H is on it's first engine (1953). I got it 20 years ago, and the only money it has cost me is new brake disks ($50) I rewired it this spring ($30), gas and oil. I highly doubt any new machine can compare to that cost of ownership. Good equipment, when built well in the first place, costs little to maintain. Our bailer was bought new in the mid 60's. Had to replace two kicker belts and the knotter timing chain. It has seen hundereds of thousands of bales go through it. I doubt ANY new piece of equipment can compare to the quality of older equipment. A used $500 machine can be rebuilt to new for much less than the $20-50,000 a new piece will cost. I, and many other can run their whole operation for more than a decade on what a new sub-compact tractor that is only good to mow a lawn costs. Mike



This would be true if we didn't use gearing (transmissions) between the engine and the load (wheels or PTO). There is a formula that shows the relationship between torque and HP at a fixed RPM (whether 540 for your PTO or 10 RPM for your rear axle driving the tractor forward):

Torque = Horsepower * 5252 / RPM

at 30 HP and 540 RPM, you get 291 lb ft

at 150HP (for the heck of it) and 540 RPM, you get 1458 lb ft

Thus, 30 HP at 540 RPM always is the same torque.

Assuming you can run your machine at peak HP output and have the gearing to produce the desired RPM, you get more torque to the PTO or wheels for a greater engine HP. Torque and HP curves and lugging properties differ across engines and affect performance, but these differences are much more important in cars and trucks where the RPM varies widely as part of acceleration, etc. In a tractor, where you typically are setting the throttle at a point to get 540 RPM (which, for most tractors, puts you at or close to the maximum HP rating for the engine, rather than necessarily at the torque peak), as long as you aren't exceeding the engine's ability to supply, torque is torque. Torque curves (lugging) starts to matter for PTO implements when you exceed the HP rating, then the question is whether you stall (poor torque curve, typical of newer higher rev engines, or gas engines compared with diesel) or do you just slow down some (older engines, diesel). You have to be careful here, though too, because the gearing and the engine torque curve still interrelate to determine ultimate performance, and it might not be as bad as you think for a tractor.

All that really matters between your truck and your tractor is traction and gearing (and whether the driveline in your truck can take the torque of the lowest gear output of your transmission and transfer case). If you have a manual transmission with a granny gear, a transfer case you can put in 4 low, and can eliminate traction as a variable (pull on pavement, maybe) you might be surprised when your tractor stalls (movement really wouldn't matter as it reflects traction, you'd be looking to see which machine stalled, as that would be the indicator of which had more torque). 

None of this is to argue against the value or quality of older equipment.


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## vallyfarm (Oct 24, 2006)

I agree with your formula in theory, but HP is what is derived from torque, not the other way around. A modern engine gets it's HP by increasing RPM. So an old 2 cyl JD, for example gets it's max HP at around 900-1000 RPM, while a newer tractor gets it's peak HP at 3000 RPM or more. Using that formula shows that a slower turning engine will create much more torque than a faster one. Since torque is what actually turns that PTO, a 30 HP older,slower engine will have much more torque to power equipment than a faster engine geared back down to the PTO. I'm in no way saying that newer tractors can't do the job, just that newer tractors, in general, need more HP to do the same job. Also, in general, older tractors, and other equipment, cost less for parts, and will need fewer repairs due to their more robust and simpler construction. Either way, proper sizing of the bailer is what is key here.:goodjob: Mike


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## RebootMyself (Jan 11, 2008)

vallyfarm said:


> I agree with your formula in theory, but HP is what is derived from torque, not the other way around. A modern engine gets it's HP by increasing RPM. So an old 2 cyl JD, for example gets it's max HP at around 900-1000 RPM, while a newer tractor gets it's peak HP at 3000 RPM or more. Using that formula shows that a slower turning engine will create much more torque than a faster one. Since torque is what actually turns that PTO, a 30 HP older,slower engine will have much more torque to power equipment than a faster engine geared back down to the PTO. I'm in no way saying that newer tractors can't do the job, just that newer tractors, in general, need more HP to do the same job. Also, in general, older tractors, and other equipment, cost less for parts, and will need fewer repairs due to their more robust and simpler construction. Either way, proper sizing of the bailer is what is key here.:goodjob: Mike


Just remember that you can trade RPM for torque (gearing, think about how a winch works for an extreme case of torque). So even if I generate less torque at 3000RPM than you do at 1000, if I gear down by 1/3 to get a 1000 RPM equivalent at the shaft, I get 3x the torque I had at 3000RPM. Since, for PTO loads, we always gear down to the same RPM, more HP=more torque. For the JD @ 1000RPM, it gets a roughly 2:1 gain going to 540RPM, for something spinning 2500RPM, it gets roughly 5:1 gain in torque.

Back to the topic, I have a friend who used a hand start 2cyl JD to do his hay for years. Not many hills in his fields, but he put up a few hundred bales every year. :goodjob:. He's moved on to something made in the 50s or 60s now, he always seems to like the stuff that's about 50 years old...


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## KCM (Sep 26, 2005)

QUESTION:

What did people do before fuel-powered machinery? Didn't they just cut it with a hand-held blade of some sort and then load it all up into a horse drawn trailer unbundled?

Just curious, as sheep and goat farmers weren't always dependent upon modern equipment.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

KCM said:


> QUESTION:
> 
> What did people do before fuel-powered machinery? Didn't they just cut it with a hand-held blade of some sort and then load it all up into a horse drawn trailer unbundled?
> Just curious, as sheep and goat farmers weren't always dependent upon modern equipment.




Do you have any Amish farmers near you?
If you do, take a trip into the area when the cutting is going on.

We have quite a few and they still do mostly cutting , stacking and hauling the old horse drawn way.
Kinda cool seeing the wheat stacked in the fields and the hay stacks.
Looks like a lot of work to me....................


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## RebootMyself (Jan 11, 2008)

KCM said:


> QUESTION:
> 
> What did people do before fuel-powered machinery? Didn't they just cut it with a hand-held blade of some sort and then load it all up into a horse drawn trailer unbundled?
> 
> Just curious, as sheep and goat farmers weren't always dependent upon modern equipment.


When I was a kid (and I'm not that old), my dad cut our hay by hand with a scythe and we raked it by hand. When we did oats, he had a scythe with 'fingers' (sorry, can't remember the right name for this rig anymore, but still have it in the barn) so when you took a cut, you could drop the oats into a neat pile to tie off into a bundle. We did about an acre a year in oats and maybe 2 in hay. We piled the hay loose on the back of a pickup (bed had 4' sides and we stacked it all the way over the cab) and then hand loaded into the hayloft. If you thought handling bales was 'itchy' work, try throwing it up loose! We also threshed the oats by hand and then winnowed them, too.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

RebootMyself said:


> he had a scythe with 'fingers' (sorry, can't remember the right name for this rig anymore, but still have it in the barn) .


Cradle.

--->Paul


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## Scrounger (Jan 6, 2007)

I dunno.
I KNOW I don't have the HP OR the torque anymore to run a scythe for very long......

I have two of them (my grandpa's and my wife's grandpa's.....), but I doubt my back and knees would let me get very far....


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## Sammy (Dec 10, 2005)

Nebraska Tractor Test #443 rates the 8-N Ford at: 
CHP drawbar 23.16 h.p., belt 27.32 h.p.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

hunter63 said:


> Have been looking around for a small haybine, rake, bailer suitable to pull behind a 30 Hp compact tractor.
> Any ideas?
> 
> I would think that with the continuing widespread use of the Ford 2n-9n, 8n, small Farmall etc @ approx. the same hp, that the older equipment would work?
> ...


What 30hp tractor is going to be the issue, Most modern 30hp compacts are to lightweight to pull a standard bailer. There are some smaller light weight bailers that work great behind compacts a low as 15hp, but they cost $15K and seldom are found used.

Your 30hp will mow,rake fine, but you need some torque and weight to move a bailer properly.


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## Sammy (Dec 10, 2005)

I always liked New Holland *balers*.


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