# just a discussion



## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

On a flu shot thread someone mentioned that people who choose not to do the vaccine probably study more and spend more time thinking about pros and cons than the general public.

I have been curious about similar medical questions. I am a "less is more" believer personally. I don't do paps, mammograms, vaccines, don't run for CTs just due to a lump or bump, never have biopsys on something that "feels" like a fatty cyst, etc. I am just a "less is more" person. Always have been. Squatted and dropped the kids, never had or even considered c-sections, hubby doesn't have hernias repaired, etc. Less is more.

And, actually, I am like that because I fear the treatment more than the disease. Don't get me wrong, I take meds for my heart, always have, but have never had repair surgery, EP studies, valves replaced, etc. And I won't. I will live as long as Jesus lets me live with the body He gave me. I am a LOT more fearful of the medical procedures than I am of arrythmias. I don't like pain, don't want MRSA or AIDs (from a transfusion), and can live in an irregular beat a lot better than I can live with death, you know?

I hear so many people going in for this or that, and it makes me curious. Is the fear of the disease or issue more than the fear of the treatment for all of you? Are people just not fearful of medical procedures like I am? I'm not so afraid of a breast lump because I know it has a 99.9+% chance of being nothing. I have had lumps and bumps since I was 20-somehting...no problem. Yet other people I know go for every biopsy on every bump and always have. 
So, I am just curious about the way people think? Do people fear diseases more than medical procedures, even if they know statistically there are more problems from the procedures than chance of the disease? What thought process does everyone go through when you have a sore knee that you decide to get surgery on, or a lump somewhere you decide to get biopsied, or chest pains that you decide to have tested and stented or whatever? My thoughts would turn to fear of a medial mistake causing death, electronic medical equipment messing up my electrical system, doctors with germs on their hands..... But others don't seem to even consider those things? Do they ever enter your minds?


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

I think it is just conditioning. People go to the doc for every teeny little thing, because everyone else does, the commercials tell them to do so, the government tells them to do so, etc. People take their kids for "well-visits" because everyone else does. People go to the doctor and the dentist, heck even the VET, when there is nothing wrong, because they are "supposed" to. The behavior of most people is dictated by what their peers do.

People are maleable, and really do follow the crowd for the most part. Also, I truly believe that many Americans have stopped THINKING, and simply do what they are told. Doc tells you to bring yourself, your kid, your teeth, your dog, back in six months for a well check, and you do it. Why? Because someone in a perceived posistion of authority told you to do so.

My studies of all things herbal, and using food as medicine, came about because I was ill (still am), and had been to about a hundred docs, they had put me on SO many pills, and depending on the treatment I was no better or decidely worse. They wre just guessing and throwing as much synthetic crap at me as they could, hoping something would stick.

It was then that I lost faith in our medical system.

Surgery is big business, and when everyone you know has had surgery on their knee, or their nose, or had a hysterectomy, or chemo, etc., then it ceases to become a big deal and the risks are shoved aside.


Personally, I avoid all medical pllaces if I can help it. That's where the sick people are!!!


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## sss3 (Jul 15, 2007)

I've pretty much stopped self diagnosing. I had several health situations earlier this year. For a long time, I'd been self diagnosing. I think I would go to Dr's for an opinion; then select treatment that I was comfortable with.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

earthkitty said:


> they had put me on SO many pills, and depending on the treatment I was no better or decidely worse. They wre just guessing and throwing as much synthetic crap at me as they could, hoping something would stick.
> 
> It was then that I lost faith in our medical system.


Doctors really cannot heal. Meds just control until until your body corrects itself or eventually dies. Maybe because some people were born ill, and learned this early in life they are more prone to not expect medicine to fix things?
Like you, I have been on meds since I was a child. I have always had a medical issue that they cannot fix, just control. Maybe that gives us a different perspective than most?


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

Maybe. I spent so many years trying to be whatever "normal" is, that I lost valuable time just _living_.


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## backwoods (Sep 12, 2004)

I often wonder if doctors are really doing us a favor by telling us in advance that we're about to die? I'm talking about telling you that you have stage IV cancer and there is nothing they can do for you so you are going to die soon. Is that really helpful? Do you really really want to know??? You'll probably have a good idea soon enough, but it seems worse to have someone tell you that and remove all hope. Same thing if they treat your disease, and the treatment keeps you miserably sick, even though they slightly extend your life, is it worth another 3 months to have lived the rest of that time in misery?


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## Ruralnurse (Jun 23, 2011)

backwoods said:


> I often wonder if doctors are really doing us a favor by telling us in advance that we're about to die? I'm talking about telling you that you have stage IV cancer and there is nothing they can do for you so you are going to die soon. Is that really helpful? Do you really really want to know??? You'll probably have a good idea soon enough, but it seems worse to have someone tell you that and remove all hope. Same thing if they treat your disease, and the treatment keeps you miserably sick, even though they slightly extend your life, is it worth another 3 months to have lived the rest of that time in misery?


I have a female patient that came to see me after being treated for breast cancer. She had a masectomy and was having a hard time getting off the pain pills since her surgery was over and she was healed. We worked together for a couple of months and she beat it. She is a nurse (34 years old) and went back to work. She was having headaches and blamed it on stress. After all she and her husband were having problems and she has a 5 year old son. One of the doctors she works with (her co-worker not _her_ doctor) really encouraged her to go get it checked, get a CT scan.

Long story short, she had cancer metastisized to her brain and had been given 1-2 months to live. She is close to the end now, but if she had not gone in when she did she may have wasted much of that time fighting with her husband or whatever. She quit work and kept her son from school and is trying to make memories for her boy.

If she had not had it checked and been told she had this condition she may have waited until she was so sick she could not make good memories with her son.

I guess each siuation is different.

If you think of it send a prayer out for her and her family.

Ruralnurse


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Personally I dont believe that most allopathic treatments fit into a whole-istic way of staying healthy. I believe that most drugs are simply band aids that drive an illness deeper, while causing other imbalances and issues in the body. I also do not trust Big-Pharma...at all.

I know many people that have been saved by medicine, and just as many who have been damaged or almost killed by it by it.

In my case, I am afraid of both the disease and the doctor. When I was about 20 I began having panic attacks. I was able to self-cure the issue, but unfortunately the anxiety has resurfaced in recent years as hypochondria and fear of doctors.

I know this fear is irrational. I also do know that hospitals are swimming in MRSA, etc. My grandmother is almost 90 and just recovered from a systematic MRSA infection that she contracted in the doctor's office. My bil just had an immune collapse that almost killed him after a routine free flu shot...etc, etc...There is nothing irrational about being aware of the risks/vs/benefits...


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## sparkysarah (Dec 4, 2007)

I really don't have anything to add, but I am enjoying this discussion!


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Haven said:


> I know this fear is irrational. I also do know that hospitals are swimming in MRSA, etc. My grandmother is almost 90 and just recovered from a systematic MRSA infection that she contracted in the doctor's office. My bil just had an immune collapse that almost killed him after a routine free flu shot...etc, etc...There is nothing irrational about being aware of the risks/vs/benefits...


I don't know if some of the fear is irrational or not. How many people do we see that end up with more problems after procedures than they had before they chose to go it?
A 78yo man we know has been in and out of the hospital since Oct from MRSA after having his gallbladder removed. I just have to wonder if he wouldn't have been better off just keeping it at that age? A 55yo lady on the fire dept died from complications from a stent. I wonder if she hadn't been better off just living with the slight blockage. Bad things seem to happen during routine procedures often. Sometimes it seems like it would be better to just leave things alone.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

mekasmom said:


> I hear so many people going in for this or that, and it makes me curious. Is the fear of the disease or issue more than the fear of the treatment for all of you? Are people just not fearful of medical procedures like I am? I'm not so afraid of a breast lump because I know it has a 99.9+% chance of being nothing. I have had lumps and bumps since I was 20-somehting...no problem. Yet other people I know go for every biopsy on every bump and always have.
> So, I am just curious about the way people think? Do people fear diseases more than medical procedures, even if they know statistically there are more problems from the procedures than chance of the disease? What thought process does everyone go through when you have a sore knee that you decide to get surgery on, or a lump somewhere you decide to get biopsied, or chest pains that you decide to have tested and stented or whatever? My thoughts would turn to fear of a medial mistake causing death, electronic medical equipment messing up my electrical system, doctors with germs on their hands..... But others don't seem to even consider those things? Do they ever enter your minds?


Here's a verse I've used a lot.


> Philippians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.


I've had fibro-cystic breast condition since I was young too. Years ago, during a routine checkup, a nurse practitioner was concerned with a breast lump I had. She sent me for a mammogram and referred me to a surgeon . It turned out to be a big cyst which was aspirated by the surgeon during an office visit. For awhile I had to be examined by the surgeon every three months and get extra mammograms because of multiple abnormalities that showed up on the mammogram. The Dr said I was a high risk for breast cancer. Later I developed solid hard lumps that worried the doctor so he decided to do biopsies. I had young children at the time so was fearful for their sake too. He did surgery using local anesthesia in his office and removed the three places he was concerned about. The report showed it was fibro-adenosis which can get hard like cancer, but is benign. I've also had multiple cysts aspirated over the years. Before those surgeries I worried every day that I had or would get cancer.

Things got better so eventually I went back to having yearly screenings. Now I don't worry about every lump I have but I still get mammograms and checkups regularly. The nurse practitioners are very thorough with their breast exams. I haven't been to a surgeon for many years and now my surgeon has retired. I've had no more cysts for many years and all my checkups and mammograms have not shown up any problem areas. The mammograms I get are computer aided so they can detect cancer more easily. 

I try to be a good steward of my body. I pray for God's protection and for wisdom in making decisions. I also do research so that I can make informed health decisions. I give God the glory whenever I am healed. When I am not, I remember Paul asking the Lord to remove his "thorn in the flesh" which is some unidentified infirmity. 


> 2 Corinthians 12: 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, &#8220;My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.&#8221; Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

I'm certainly not saying there is no place in this world for medications, hospitals and doctors. I do think though that Americans are over-treated, over-syndromed, and over-medicated. Of course you can always find examples on both ends of the spectrum.

Now, if they ever find the fountain of youth, count me in.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

Haven said:


> I believe that most drugs are simply band aids that drive an illness deeper, while causing other imbalances and issues in the body.


ABSOLUTELY.

People want to ban guns, look at the numbers for patient deaths due to negligence, overdosing, wrong meds given, "complications", staph infections, etc. That doesn't include suicides from psych meds, other diseases brought on by prescribed drugs (take this estrogen, no, don't!!!), the classic "must have been an allergic reaction", or Hey, this medicine to relieve your arthritis pain might give you cancer.

Geez. Louise. Out of control.

From CBS news_..."About *103,000* deaths were linked to hospital infections, 13,000 more than the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention calculated last year, according to a report in Sunday editions of the Chicago Tribune."_

"*Hospital infections are now the fourth leading cause of death* in the United States, behind heart disease, cancer and strokes, according to the CDC."

Keep in mind that the 103,000 deaths quoted above is only infections, not error, or incorrect dosages for meds, or anything else.



http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-515755.html


And from the guardian UK_..."In 2011 - the latest year for which detailed statistics are available - there were 12,664 murders in the US. Of those, *8,583* were caused by firearms."_

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state

Clearly, if you have had a stroke, or have cancer, or are having a heart attack, you really have nothing to lose and everything to gain by being admitted. The rest of us? 

Looks like the criminals aren't as good at knocking people off as the hospitals. Not by a long shot.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

My mother is one of 6 kids and the only one not taking meds for diabetes, heart, bp etc. She is also the 2nd oldest. She has always been one of those people that didn't take the time to take any pills or drugs. She will barely bother taking an aspirin. She is the only one with normal health check ups, normal BP, sugar, etc.

On the other hand, that family tree has a strong genetic risk factor for colon cancer. This is something that must be screened for in that family, or you may as well plan on dying from it. I think this is where prevention is a must.

It seems that once people begin down the path of medications, they end up taking more and more. A lot of her friends started out taking one, then another to counteract the side-effects of the 1st, then more to fix the new condition the first 2 created. It seems to be an endless cycle.

My new years resolution is to be more proactive through diet and exercise.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

VA Susan said:


> Now I don't worry about every lump I have but I still get mammograms and checkups regularly. The nurse practitioners are very thorough with their breast exams.


I wasn't putting anyone down for having exams and procedures. I hope it didn't come across that way. I have had 4 echocardiograms in my life.....2 in childhood and 2 since my 30s, and probably 6-7 EKGs when I was in an irregular beat at one time or another. I just don't go for things on a regular basis, and do everything I can to avoid any invasive procedures. At one point I was hemorrhaging after giving birth to my daughter, and had to have a D&C, but I put it off as long as possible because I hoped to not have it. Sometimes you just have to have something invasive and trust God that it will turn out ok.

I'm just curious to as the way people think. I worry more about problems from too much human interference a lot more than I get concerned about problems from too little. There is so much more risk in most medical care than there is benefit in my way of thinking. I'm curious as to why others don't see things that way? And how do they think?


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Haven said:


> It seems that once people begin down the path of medications, they end up taking more and more.


That is so true. I wonder if big pharma doesn't plan it that way? Maybe not, but it sure seems like it to me.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

mekasmom said:


> That is so true. I wonder if big pharma doesn't plan it that way? Maybe not, but it sure seems like it to me.


I don't agree with Haven's statement! 

In my case, I am taking less meds than I did 5 years ago. I have multiple medical issues and an excellent general practice doctor and cardio doctor. We consult and I make the decision as to how we proceed.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

Ardie/WI said:


> I don't agree with Haven's statement!
> 
> In my case, I am taking less meds than I did 5 years ago. I have multiple medical issues and an excellent general practice doctor and cardio doctor. We consult and I make the decision as to how we proceed.


 
Ardie, it sounds like you are your own best patient advocate, and are informed and involved. Most people aren't.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

earthkitty said:


> Ardie, it sounds like you are your own best patient advocate, and are informed and involved. Most people aren't.


Yes, I guess I am! You see, I've seen doctors who aren't worth a pinch of horse dung, who don't want to listen to a patient, who act higher than God. They don't last long with me as I've suffered the consequences of their stupidity.

I research and question a lot and a good doctor will listen!

As for a flu shot, I get one every year! A little poke in the arm is well worth not ending up in the hospital!


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## DarleneJ (Jan 29, 2012)

mekasmom said:


> So, I am just curious about the way people think? Do people fear diseases more than medical procedures, even if they know statistically there are more problems from the procedures than chance of the disease?


No, I don't fear the medical procedures. I am simply not ignorant. The odds of going in for a hangnail and coming out with a toe tag are very, very high. Being thoughtful about any issue in our lives is called, "calculated risk", not necessarily âfear.â

I've sourced two quotes and corresponding articles below. The first is from the NY Times for those who refuse to give credence to anything "alternative". There are tons of articles out there on both sides supporting the same conclusion. Some numbers are more conservative than others. CNN actually gave a much larger statistic.

"According to a 1999 report by the Institute of Medicine, as many as 98,000 Americans were dying every year because of medical mistakes. Today, exact figures are hard to come by because states donât abide by the same reporting guidelines, and few cases gain as much attention as that of Rory Staunton, the 12-year-old boy who died of septic shock this spring after being sent home from a New York hospital. But a reasonable estimate is that medical mistakes now kill around 200,000 Americans every year. That would make them one of the leading causes of death in the United States."
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/01/opinion/more-treatment-more-mistakes.html?_r=0

"HealthGrades has been studying the quality of care in the nation's hospitals since 1988. This year they analyzed approximately 40 million Medicare patients' records from 2007 through 2009, and found that 1 in 9 patients developed a hospital-acquired infection"
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/02/04/death-by-medicine-an-update.aspx

Thought provoking topic, Mekasmom.


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## CJ (May 10, 2002)

I'm not afraid, I simply disagree with most medical practices. I don't do annual mammograms or physicals either, but I do a yearly pap... but didn't start doing so until I hit menopause.

I believe food is the source of most illnesses and the cure.


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## Sparkie (Aug 16, 2012)

It depends. Modern medicine does have it's place. I'm a nurse but lean strongly towards more natural healing methods and preventing illness in the first place through nutrition. I worked in hospitals for many years, now I'm a dialysis nurse. I saw many people die from hospital acquired infections or complications of medical treatment over the years.

My husband had a 90% blockage of his LAD several years ago. The MI that comes from that blockage is what is commonly referred to as the "Widow Maker" because so few men survive it. He had 2 stents and continued taking the awful statins. When he started having symptoms again a couple of years later he decided he'd had enough. He went on the vegan/no oil/no sugar/no processed anything diet that's supposed to make you heart attack proof. After 2 weeks his symptoms went away completely. Today he takes no medicine and is more active than he's been in years and says he feels great. He still eats that way and says he's not tempted to eat other stuff because he values living.

I had gall bladder surgery last year. It was an infected mess and I was pretty sick. It was beyond any natural treatment by the time it started hurting. If I'd known years ago about eating better it probably could've been prevented. 

I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that both my dh and I would be dead without our medical interventions. But hopefully since we've learned to be healthier we won't need more of that kind of treatment.

I really dreaded surgery, so many nurses are colonized with mrsa and get surgical infections. I did get an infection in one of the scope sites but treated it naturally till it went away. I refused to take antibiotics unless it was absolutely necessary. I hate them but they also have their place.

Mekasmom if I were you I'd definitely get an ep study done. You're at much more risk from the irregular hr than from an ablation imo. Especially if it gets worse as you age. Jmho.


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## Sherrynboo (Mar 19, 2005)

I try to stay away from doctors myself. I am 58 years old and so far it has served me well. My sister, on the other hand, is 60, is on 19 different medications, has diabetes, coronary heart disease, pulmonary hypertension, regular hypertension and every other thing you can imagine. The difference between us besides the age difference is she refuses to change her diet and goes to the doctor religiously. I try to eat a good diet, restricting sugar and processed or refined foods and get a lot of exercise. I am on no meds at all although I do have MVP which was inherited. If I watch my caffeine intake the arrhythmia ls kept to a minimum. The more I see of what is going on in the medical establishment the less I want to be a part of it. As for Obamacare, I WILL NOT COMPLY. I will pay the fine but there is no way I will comply with this program. 

Sherry in Ga


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Sherrynboo said:


> I do have MVP which was inherited. If I watch my caffeine intake the arrhythmia ls kept to a minimum.


If the arrhythmia increases due to the prolapse you might look up CoQ10 and L Carnitine. Both can be helpful. Magnesium is also helpful in SVT which is what the prolapse usually causes. You are doing well if you can control it with diet at 58. Good Job.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Sparkie said:


> Mekasmom if I were you I'd definitely get an ep study done. You're at much more risk from the irregular hr than from an ablation imo. Especially if it gets worse as you age. Jmho.


Thank you so much for your concern. They have suggested EP since way back when I was a child. Back then they would stop the heart and then shock it in different places to try to cause the irregularity. And back then to treat the issue they would actually make small cuts in the heart itself to try to stop the short circuit. My dad didn't like the sound of that, so it was never done. I'm not going to do it now either. My heart is pretty enlarged now, so there really is no reason anyway. And digitalis has actually controlled the rhythm well for the last 50yrs, so I can't complain.
But I do really thank you for your concern.


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