# A long story about my feeding mistakes and how to fix them



## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

My question is deceptively simple and Iâm resistant to the obvious answer, so I think to really ask my question I need to tell a story and start at the beginning, or even before my beginning.

In 1944 my mother was born with a genetic hip defect. An older cousin of mine also inherited it, and my mother was on the lookout for symptoms in my sister and I. My gait was a little funny, but the pediatrician only thought it bared watching, and weâd address it âif it became an issue.â

In 1991, the neighbor boy kicked me in the knee, dislocating my patella. I never recovered. The docs called it Fibromyalgia, which is manageable but incurable. That âFibromyalgiaâ label followed my medical history and contributed to a bunch of poor doctoring later in my life. 

In 2006 I adopted a dog from a rescue that required his feed be of a specific protein count, so I started reading pet food labels.

In 2007 I adopted a different dog with major dental issues. In the course of my research I ended up learning about raw, and have ever since formulated all my own dog foods from scratch. I did a lot of intense research when starting on this, and got to the point where I was helping other people with the math of comparing nutritional quality of various prepared and homemade feeds. I still today run a yahoo group to help local raw feeders find the supplies to make the food.

In 2008 I had yet a third dog, this time a pup, with major digestive issues. Iâd been planning to feed her the kibble the breeder had been giving until she was well settled in, but in my desperation to treat her immediate issues I switched her to raw within the week. She improved but was not all better, and the vet refused to treat her unless I switched her back to the food she was doing more poorly on. I found another vet who didnât ask me to switch, but didnât take my concerns seriously. She died two years later. The vet finally took me seriously when she started hemorrhaging, but it was too late by then to treat. She was put down within days of diagnosis. (Her puppy-hood concerns may not have had the same cause, but the symptoms were similar.)

In 200x? the doctors recommended that my worsening Fibromyalgia be treated with a drug with severe side effects and I refused treatment. I had major wrist trouble and got poor treatment because of the Fibromyalgia label, and ended up doing my own research on physical therapy and braces and fixed my wrists myself.

In 2010 I had a breakthrough with treatment of my Fibromyalgia, and started listening to crazy people on the internet for my health advice. They fixed me. I went from considering going on disability to wanting to ditch the desk job for a more physically demanding career. Part of the program Iâm following involves grass finished meat. The grass finished meat contains very little Omega-6 which seems to be very problematic for me in the levels found in the average American diet. You can read more about that journey at http://my-health-experiment.blogspot.com/

Iâm always researching something, so as we were working towards finally moving from the city and getting our land, I did a lot of research on grass finishing systems. Iâm not an expert, but I am fairly well read. I definitely have not put together a comprehensive whole from all the ideas yet.

In 2013 we bought our farm. I unwisely allowed the former owner to ârentâ the barn for a time after closing, and told the hay man to talk to my tenant about hay as I had no use for it while the barn was occupied. The weather last year was very damp, the hay man had trouble finding three days in a row dry enough to harvest hay, so hay harvest was very late. First harvest actually occurred a few days after my tenant moved out, but as he still held the lease on the property next door that was half the hay field. The tenant totally ripped off myself and the hay man. Five carts of hay came off the land, the hay man got one wet load that had to be fed out immediately. The tenant took three loads for himself, and I was left with only one cart of overly mature hay. Second harvest was no better. The hay man didnât realize my loft was half empty and didnât realize the tenant was no longer a part of things, and when he had equipment failure didnât consult me or explain why I wasnât getting a share of the hay. I did manage to salvage a couple round bales out of his buddy that was collecting the âwasteâ hay before the equipment problems caused it to be a total loss. (We worked out a contract on paper this spring, Iâll give him another chance given his reputation for making quality hay and him being a good neighbor other than that misunderstanding.)

I raised three weaned wethers to butchering age on mostly pasture with alfalfa pellets as training treats. I ended up having to break into the hay when I couldnât get a butchering appointment soon enough. After butchering we bought in our first Cotswold breeding stock (three ewe lambs, two bred ewes, and a free ram of dubious quality).

The bred ewes and the ram came from a farm that was shutting down due to health problems of the owner. The sheep had not been sheared the previous year, so it was hard to get hands through the wool and really feel them. The barn door on their stall managed to get frozen open, so I couldnât trap them for regular checkups anyway. Iâd noted the ram was pushing the girls off the feed and was concerned, but not sure what to do. I was looking forward to separating him from the girls when we got wethers this summer.

Ok, if all the background put you to sleep, time to wake up again, Iâm getting to the point.

I did manage to catch a sheep and get my hands down through the wool part way through winter. I didnât like how thin the hips felt, but the body condition score chart didnât include hips, and I scored them high according to what I could feel of the transverse process. My scoring was incorrect, my resulting alteration to the amount of feed was incorrect. The hay was overly mature, all that waste I was seeing was them rejecting it, not them being full. I was gravely mistaken.

April, we finally get the bred ewes shorn and get a wellness checkup. The vet gets a grave look on his face when declaring body condition scores of 2-5. I know 2 is skinny, but I didnât think it was that bad as the lowest score of a bunch using a 1-5 scale. Then he tells me he uses the horse scale of 1-9. I have one sheep at ideal weight, the rest are underweight, some severely so. He proscribes that I forget about the whole grass fed nonsense and convert them over to a commercial complete sheep feed. This scares me a bit because Iâve been educated by websites that say things like âThe Cotswold is today considered a fairly slow growing sheep, because too much grain often kills it through Polioencephalomalacia (PEM), Pulpy Kidney, and Gravel or Urolithiasis (in rams)â and âthe Cotswold remained more popular as a rangeland sire breed in those days, due to Cotswold-sired lambs' ability to thrive on grazing alone (no costly grain).â I specifically chose Cotswolds for their ability to do well on forage alone. The vet professes to know nothing about the breed specific needs and holds his line about switching them to a generic sheep prepared feed. The vet is incredulous of the idea of grass finished meat. The girls could be due any day now if their fall breeding took, but their condition does not bode well for lambs.

So here I am, with almost no trust in the medical communityâs opinion on diet, and malnourished sheep, and diet advice from a vet that I donât like one bit. I also seem to not be able to do a proper body condition score, possibly from being used to very skinny breeds of dog. (I donât underfeed them, we usually have to put half the greyhoundâs food back in the fridge because he likes to stay right at his slender race weight.) Given the experience with the dog that didnât get proper treatment when I wouldnât follow the vetâs orders, I did go to Tractor Supply and look at the sheep feed. Not only was it grain, it was full of very vague ingredient names and additives I recognize and donât want to feed. I thought about formulating my own feed, but even the bag labeled âWhole Cornâ in big letters had additives in it. The Country Max is nearby as well, but has similar cheap bagged feeds. There is an independent feed store that has a mill, but I canât get there when they are open until Saturday.

I do have the alfalfa pellets Iâve been using as treats, and I bought another bag of that and increased from just treats to a regular twice a day ration for the two skinniest girls. The product info indicates you could feed up to half their ration of just pellets, and Iâm quite willing to work up to that. Tractor Supply also had a Timothy pellet available that I could add to the ration.

The ram has been penned up alone so he canât push the girls off the feed, but the skinniest girl is not eating well. Iâd noticed some green slime after a feeding, and figured it was mashed up damp pellets. Last night I watched them eat more carefully, and the one girl only ate a little before she started acting like it was sticking in her throat and spat quite a bit of it back out. She recovered and was able to eat a second very small serving with no trouble. This morning I soaked the pellets before feeding and watched them carefully while eating. She didnât act like she had trouble swallowing, but she lost interest and spent a while chewing cud before returning to the feed trough while the other sheep was eating pretty much continuously. When the feed got low in the trough the other sheep pushed her away from the food.

Iâm afraid to call the vet about her eating difficulty because Iâve not yet implemented his recommendation. I donât think he is interested in any alternative method of resolving the problem.

How do I fix this?

The obvious and fastest solution is to stop on the way home from work and buy the feed I donât like and start converting them over and see if they do better. If they donât do better, call the vet. If they do do better then re-evaluate if I should be doing forage analysis and buying in better hay as needed, or if I need to give up on the whole grass fed lamb enterprise. The issues I have with the feed are long term health issues, if a little junk food gets enough calories into them that might be better for them in the short term than avoiding all the additives. I am concerned about over-graining Cotswolds in general.

Secondary option is to limp along as we have been doing until Saturday and see if I can get a better grain ration, then follow the same decision tree as above.

I trust my book learning enough to know that it is possible to fix this without grain. I donât trust it enough to be certain that I personally can fix this without grain. Is it a viable option to just use soaked alfalfa and timothy pellets in an increasing ration? If I need to drown her in raw calories I could use molasses and coconut oil without elevating her omega 6 levels (the primary concern with grass feeding is the omega-3/omega-6 ratio), but I donât want to make things worse souring her rumen with experimental feed. Katie might just be really under nourished and take time to come back up to speed. She is much less proportionally wide than Janice, if it is not a difference in breeding status she has a much smaller rumen. Perhaps she should be isolated and given peace to take as much time as she needs to eat her ration, but there are social implications to doing that.

I also donât want to tick off the new vet who probably has perfectly fine surgical and medical skill despite my lack of trust in his nutrition training.


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## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

As I was reading through this, I was struck by several things. I don't want to cause offense so I hope you will take this only in the spirit in which it is intended, which is to try to helpâ¦.

The first thing is that there seem to be a lot of misperceptions, misunderstandings etc, that could/should have been avoided. The hay man "didn't understand" or "didn't know" certain details he should have known. Whose responsibility was it to inform him of these things? If the tenant had moved by then and it was your hay and your loft, shouldn't you have been a little more proactive about making sure you and the hay man were on the same page?

Second, vets study very little about nutrition in their training. I never consult a vet about nutrition, to be honest, because even when they are willing to talk about it, their opinion is invariably colored by which feed company is offering them kickbacks. Many vets sell Science Diet products in their clinic so guess which brand they recommend? So when it comes to medical advice, I consult the vet but when it comes to nutrition, I seek better sources. So if I were you, I'd quit even trying to talk to the vet about nutrition and disregard the advice he does give you, unless it coincides with what you already know to be true.

Third, you don't mention a) how much pasture is available to them and b) what kinds of grasses it contains. That is really important information.

My experience with sheep is limited to the past 12 months and I too, am still learning so do NOT profess to be an expert. What I can tell you is that my pasture is 7 acres and seeded with what we call in these parts "prairie grasses". It is a mix of different grasses that do well in an area that does not always get a lot of rain. Last May I put 6 40-lb lambs on the 7-acres and in November I took two wethers to the processor and their live weight was 110-lb. That was just pasture grasses, other than a very small can of grain they get in the morning just to keep them coming in. And, in February, the ewes delivered large, healthy lambs that they had grown, again, on just those pasture grasses. 

Last fall we had a guy come in to cut our hay and we stored our portion under cover. I had figured it to be enough to get us through the winter. What I didn't figure on is that the sheep would prefer to graze the old grass still in the field, vs. eating hay. So here it is spring and I still have a bunch of last year's hay that will now become mulch for the veggie garden. The only time the sheep got serious about eating hay was when snow covered the pasture - the rest of the time they were out grazing. 

In your post I heard a lot of excuses as to how the sheep got so skinny without your noticing. As you likely know by now, you *should* have been assessing them on a regular basis. Mine aren't easily handled either - that is why we keep them coming in with grain. We created a corner using cattle panels, feed them in that corner, put another panel across the entrance to "trap" them while they eat, and then wrangle each of them, one by one, to check them on a regular basis. At this time we trim their feet, check their wool, feel their body condition, check ears, check gums for color. Etc.

As for grain. We don't feed it for nutrition so I can't help you much there. I initially bought one bag of the TSC sheep grain you mentioned. Since then I get an "All Stock" which is labeled for sheep and cattle. It is junk - I know that. But my purpose for giving it is only to have some measure of influence over them - they get no more than a taste per day (&#8531; coffee can between 8 sheep) so I am not that concerned about its nutritional value.

As I said, the graze available to them is a very important detail. If they have graze available and are losing condition, it could be there are medical reasons that will need to be investigated. If they have no graze, I don't really know what to suggest. I can tell you that grass fed meat is not a pipe dream though so I hope you can get some answers. 

Good luck!


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## Dfreddie (Mar 24, 2014)

If it were me, they obviously need groceries. Give a probiotic and start feeding a good mixed feed. You aren't going to butcher these guys and if you don't do something you won't have the offspring to butcher. Is there someplace you can buy grain? I feed a pellet along with creep we make which is oats corn sometimes peas and sunflowers which we grow. Good luck but the main thing is to get them nutrients so you don't have aborted lambs


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I realize this situation is entirely my own fault. I laid out all the mistakes I am aware of in my long story. I agree the vet knows little about nutrition, but I don't want to lose his help on other matters. I can probably get better grain on Saturday, but not on a work day. Nearby feed stores only have the junk food. Today it is either pellets or cheap bagged mix. 

Our pasture is nice mid summer, but it is early spring now. The sheep are just starting to prefer pasture to hay. I'm giving the most under weight girls all day pasture access, I have called fence contractors about expanding the pasture. Husband is against temporary pasture fence because he does not trust it.


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## Dfreddie (Mar 24, 2014)

Understand and learning from mistakes is sometimes necessary. 

I don't know what you all have access to is why I was wondering what you can get for grain. I know how ours is grown and no additives are added to ours so I'm lucky I guess. 

Do make sure to give minerals though. I learned that the hard way last year and had one with a ureteral stone that cost me $100 vet bill.


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## Dfreddie (Mar 24, 2014)

And most vets don't know much about nutrition period. Especially sheep and goats and horses from my experience.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm not buying wethers this year if I don't get this well on the mend before that time. I have a couple months to see progress before decision time. I may lose a year to this mistake.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

They have access to minerals. I'm using the nearby store's stuff. They may even be overdosing on minerals as that mix contains molasses.

The further feed store recommends a generic stock product with some copper. They own sheep themselves, they believe our soil is deficient in copper and using a trace will help with parasite issues. I've been reluctant to do that without medical supervision. Our vet is very cautious on that front and recommends sampling livers of butchered lambs born to our own sheep to assess copper deficiency. If we have no lambs, then we have no test.


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## Dfreddie (Mar 24, 2014)

I'd be hesitant on the copper myself too. Is it a mineral tub that they have the molasses or loose mineral??


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I've done the block before and just converted to the loose mineral. I don't like the loose mineral so far, I need a better feeder for it that is not constantly getting dirty bedding and water in it. The block I could just brush off and put on a clean patch of straw. I've thrown a couple panfuls of the loose that got wet/dirty out on the grass. (I spelled out "M" last time, if that letter turns green I should consider trace minerals in my pasture fertilization...)

On the subject of copper, someone made a sensible suggestion I should try when the grass is taller: send in a forage sample and compare that to the ideal copper trace for sheep. If the forage is low, we should be able to calculate a safe dosage.

The Cornell co-operative extension here does recommend very low copper supplementation, but lower than many other places recommend.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Don&#8217;t worry about pissing off the vet. You are a client and I&#8217;m sure he has worse.

The best way to start pasture is by letting them have a little while still on hay and they should naturally eat more and more pasture as it is available. You don&#8217;t want to go with hay all winter then suddenly put them on pasture or they will bloat. So, you are doing right by letting them gradually move from hay to pasture. I really think this is the best way to put weight on them. Thrifty sheep will get fat from grain. In fact, mine got fat on just pasture and hay. I would use oats as a bribe. As I&#8217;ve explained before, if you whistle for them and offer a bit of oats, you&#8217;ll be able to have them always come to you when you whistle, much like bringing out a fresh bale of hay. Oats, as a grain, is better than corn. Corn is candy. Oats have the highest level of protein of the grains, if they each get a 1/4 cup of oats in their morning training to the whistle, this will give them the extra calories without giving them too much. If there is someone local who grows oats, get a bag from them. This ensures you are getting the freshest oats and keeps your money local. Might also make a friend!

If the ewes do not have a big belly, they may not be pregnant. If they were malnourished at the other place the mating may not have taken, or they could have miscarried. A pregnant sheep is going to look skinny along the back and hips, but she should put on weight after the lambing.

I&#8217;m going to suggest temporary fencing and assume you mean electric net. In the early spring they will need more pasture per day. Coming into midsummer they will need less. How much pasture you need also varies by how many sheep are on it. Right now, as they are switching from hay, you want them to eat hay so you give them less pasture. Once they are completely switched to pasture, they will need more. Until you know your herd, use el net so you can adjust the rotation to what you need. With a large pasture, let&#8217;s say 4 acres (probably more than you need), you start at one end and work them toward the other so that they basically have a bigger and bigger pasture with the new stuff along the fence. Move the fence every day, and later you can move it every two or three days. Once they get to the end, you start over. You&#8217;ll find you probably really only need an acre or two if you rotate them. Any excess can be cut for hay.

In years past we had really wet springs, ponds all over the pasture. However, the land around the house is higher and with the portable el netting I was able to put them on my lawn, rotating them around the house.

I&#8217;ve had the same problem with vets not knowing as much about dog nutrition as I do. I do my own research. Have they been wormed. Since you&#8217;ve had the vet out I&#8217;m sure he took a fecal sample and prescribed what was necessary. If not, bring in a fecal sample and give them Ivermectin. Not sure about Ivermectin and pregnancy, that is something your vet would know about.

You have chickens, right? They will help keep down the flea and fly population. I wish you and your sheep well.


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## Dfreddie (Mar 24, 2014)

I've read they can damage their teeth on blocks so loose is better. But again that's what I read. 

I know my brother doesn't do a lot of grain. Mostly hay and pasture and minerals and prob not bagged feeds. He has 249 head and all are healthy so it can be done. Just need to figure out the right combination.


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## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

I'd be real hesitant on copper. I keep goats as well and that has been a challenge since goats need copper in order not to miscarry while my understanding is that too much copper can cause sheep to abort. It took me a long time to figure a way to feed the goats separate from the sheep in order to get them the nutrition they need, while keeping the sheep out of the goat minerals and feed, and yet still let all of them graze the pasture together.

I attended a workshop last fall on raising goats and the thing the speaker tried to impress the most is that each person has to learn what works the best on THEIR property. She learned the hard way, after losing a lot of goat kids to miscarriage, that too much sulphur can cause miscarriage in goats and their well water was high in sulphur. Once she stopped using well water and started hauling water to them, the rate of miscarriage dropped significantly. But she stressed that we can't take that experience and apply it to our situation because even the property just down the road from her might have very different conditions.

I agree with your husband about temp fencing. For goats I would do it but hot fence doesn't always work that well with sheep as their wool prevents them even noticing it half the time. However if you can do a temp pasture out of cattle panels, that would be easy, doable and would keep them contained well. Is that a possibility? All you need is some t-posts and panels. We even put up one pen with no t-posts - just secured the panels at the corners and they hold each other up. The sheep stayed there for several weeks without escaping, while our main pasture fencing was being completed.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I was going to do a sheep panel pen for temporary, like the old fashioned hurdle folds. I don't trust the electric net enough to go to work while they are in there. Hubby is afraid I'm going to have the flock run off while we're moving them to the pen or moving the pen around. We can barely pick up the panels, I'm sure the sheep could move the fold a short distance, but they're not going to flip it over or wander off with it. it's the same height as the field fence, so jumping shouldn't be any different.

Vet asked for fecal samples, didn't collect any himself. I need to do that.

We have about 15 acres to work with here. Currently 1 acre is fenced into three paddocks, four more acres need immediate fencing as the land is too steep for our hay man's equipment. I eventually want to subdivide that with temporary fencing and do managed grazing as you also do. The sheep are currently on the largest paddock, they had access to one of the smaller ones during winter and it is in need of rest. The third small pasture has stockpiled forage because the fence is in need of repair. I have a helper coming this weekend that can help me get that done. 

As far as training, the alfalfa seems to be sufficient reward. My sheep do usually come when called. The whistle is a good idea though, as they can't hear me from over the hill in the big pasture.

I can feed oats if it is the best solution to the weight issues.

What protein % should they be getting for weight gain supplementation? Fats and simple sugars useful or stick to fiber and protein?


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Dfreddie said:


> I've read they can damage their teeth on blocks so loose is better. But again that's what I read.


My mentor was concerned that they eat less of it in block form.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

dlskidmore said:


> My mentor was concerned that they eat less of it in block form.


My mentor is innocent of all my mistakes. She does not do grass finishing herself, I took no diet advice from her, she's also a busy person I can't pester with every little thing. She's taught me a lot about medical stuff and regulatory stuff. We've already been reviewing my mistakes and I've used up a lot of her time on this.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Oh, another mistake I forgot.

Because of the frozen open barn door, the night before the vet visit I moved the sheep to a more secure stall. I didn't think the vet would appreciate it if the sheep spooked and spent the whole visit out on pasture. I didn't completely clean out this temporary stall, there was a horse mineral block on the wall that they could have licked that one night. The vet was not at all impressed with those conditions. When grilled about proper minerals I told him about the other stall where the regular sheep specific mineral block was, but he didn't even look at the regular stall.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I add alfalfa pellets to my ewes' feed as their pregnancies advance. They do not especially like them. Sheep eating too fast can cause them to choke and when they do, green foam will come out of their mouths and they can die if they can't breathe. I never feed a pellet ration by itself any more. I add just a bit of whole corn to it to slow them down.

There are other things you can add to their feed to help them put on weight- beet pulp - it comes in bags dehydrated. You can also get dehydrated molasses. While timothy hay is good, it doesn't have the protein that they need. Can you find wheat - it's a better than oats, timothy hay, or corn as far as protein is concerned. Can you find barley to feed them? 

I don't know if you are planning on doing anything with the wool, but to grow sheep (weight), wool and lambs takes a lot of energy for one ewe. All the articles you read about Cotswold being able to feed on range, did it include concern about the fleece? Maybe you aren't interested in the fleeces so that won't matter too much to you. It's really hard for a pregnant sheep to grow well and have lambs and grow wool without the protein. Can you find alfalfa hay for them? They might like it a lot better than the pellets. You can also add powdered soy to their feed ration to up the protein. THey won't like it much either but it's relatively cheap and you don't need much of it to get that protein where they need it. My finnsheep need about 22% protein the last few weeks of their pregnancies. Generally, sheep pellets are 12-16%.

Did your vet do a fecal test on them to see if they have a heavy load of parasites? It's really hard to put on weight if they are overloaded with parasites. I'm not asking if you've wormed them- I'm asking if you have had a test done to see if that's part of the problem? It's hard to worm properly if you just put some wormer down them. You might kill off one or two kinds and allow 3-4 more to spread. My vet charges me $6 for one. You can take a sample to him and he won't have to come out for a farm call. Poke your gloved finger in their rectum and pull some pellets out. Nasty, I know...but you need fresh pellets. Do it to all of them and put them in a plastic bag and take them to him.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

The soaking solved the choking issue, but she just didn't seem capable of eating a whole ration in one attempt anyway. 

Wheat and soy... I'm particularly resistant to that idea, yes they are high in protien, but some of those protiens are problematic. I don't have all the dots to connect the differences between ruminant and human digestion of those protiens, but I know the fats in those foods make it into the body of the ruminant, so I suspect the protiens do as well. Oats and corn are less problematic.

This problem comes up a lot in dog food. The amount of protien is less important than the type. This issue gets very confusing there because many people don't compare wet and dry foods on a dry matter basis and come out with poor analysis. 

Alfalfa is 16% protien, you say I need 22%? Do others concur? 

I am not particularly interested in fiber, but I don't get to pick where on the body the sheep sends her nutrients. I need to feed her well enough to keep condition and produce healthy lambs.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Corn and Oats are around 8% protien. (This is the locally available brand with additives. ) Beet pulp is listed as low protien, low sugar, high calorie diet supplement. No numbers given on the Web site. They had no single ingredient wheat or soy products. If protien content is of primary concern, alfalfa is winning so far.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

How rapidly can they adjust to a change in protein content in the feed? I hear high protein spring grass can cause loose stools, but I've not heard much concern over it.

Will beet pulp act in the rumen more like forage than grain? It's mostly a fiber that has to be fermented just like forages?


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Bet pulp apparently comes with "concentrated seperator byproduct", which took a bit of research. It looks like it is just another part of the beet


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

CSB in studies does increase intake of other feeds.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

We are up to a full ration of alfalfa pellets. The girls have no interest in hay now. The bale I put out this morning has not even been kicked. Katie seems to do ok with the soaked feed, she didn't even take a long pause in the middle of eating this evening like she did this morning. They still go nuts to the end of the bowl, so I'm tempted to increase the amount, but I don't want to over-do it.

I still owe the vet stool samples. I still owe the sheep new fences so they can get to the fresher grasses.

If I feel just the spine, not the ribs, my body condition score matches the vets more closely. I still am not feeling the ribs right.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Here's are my thoughts. I hope these ewes are not bred. If the vet is scoring them on a 2 on the 1-9 scale, they'll have a *very* hard time lambing and being able to raise the lambs. Lactation is a huge draw on them, and if they're going into it with negative reserves, it'll drag them so far down. 

Don't be so quick to toss aside the vet's recommendation. His priority is helping the sheep, and he sees how poorly they are doing on your hay. 

*IF* you have access to really good quality hay, and I mean tested and you know exactly what protein the hay is, then I would feed them grain. You absolutely cannot tell the quality of hay by looking at it. You can make guesses, but guesses can be wrong. I once saw a drab looking bale of bermuda grass hay that I would have passed on, and then I saw the analysis...it was 18% protein (if I remember correctly...as high or higher than most alfalfa). 

If your alfalfa hay is very good quality, then feed it free choice. You *may* be able to get them to gain on hay alone. But, if you do not have superior quality hay, then they need something else. I realize you don't like the idea of feeding grain, but at this point you may have to do that for the health of your sheep. 

And 1/4 cup oats is really much too small of an amount to do much good at this point. I'd go with a bagged ration, because after being on poor quality hay and starving like this, the sheep will need a ration that is balanced and it'll do more good than trying to mix your own ration of stuff. You may not like the idea of it, but there's a reason people study nutrition to formulate these rations. 

I would start out at 1/4 lb per head per day, then slowly work up from there. They may need to go up to 1 lb/day at least. I'd get a 16% protein feed. And it's worth it to run fecals to see if you're dealing with parasites. If you are, and it goes untreated, your sheep are just fighting an uphill battle. 

You may need to feed grain until they gain weight, then maintain with forage only. Keep in mind growing lambs need more protein that most forages can offer, so you'll always need to feed superior quality hay and pasture. Lactating ewes will also need the same thing..superior quality hay, fed ad lib.

Here's some good info on sheep nutrition.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

And beet pulp isn't really a high calorie food, it's a high fiber food. It's low in carbs and protein. Alfalfa pellets can be misleading too...keep in mind it's just more hay, although it can have an effect in the rumen similar to grain because it's digested much quicker since the fibers are so short...it doesn't require much rumination like hay, and rumination is what gets the saliva production increased, which helps buffer the rumen and keeps it from getting too acidic.

What amount of alfalfa pellets are you feeding?


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

MDKatie said:


> I would start out at 1/4 lb per head per day, then slowly work up from there. They may need to go up to 1 lb/day at least. I'd get a 16% protein feed.


The pellets have a guaranteed analysis on them of 16% protein. We are up to 1.5 lbs per head per day of that, unlimited hay access, and daytime pasture access. The hay is mostly timothy, but it was too mature when harvested and I'm glad they are feeling full enough to not be interested in it. The pasture is just starting to come in, at this point I'm risking overgrazing the pasture in favor of getting more food into the girls.

Small-Scale Livestock Farming by Carol Ekarius recommends 8-8.4% protein for gestation and lactating sheep. If that is all that is needed, most of the excess over that is going to calories not tissue repair, and those calories could come from anything easily digested. She does recommend a higher total volume of feed, so 1.5 lbs of high powered stuff mixed with some lower quality stuff could work out with her formula. I need to do measurements and get an approximate weight to fully utilize her tables.

I am willing to feed grain if I become convinced it is the right thing for these girls. I'm not yet convinced.

One person suggested protein levels should be at 22%, I think that's pretty much only possible with beans/peas or spent brewers grain? No-one else has chimed in on the 22% number. Unprocessed grain will not help with protein levels.

Some of the grains have high powered calories per pound numbers in Carol's chart, which for weight gain is more critical than protein content. The beet pulp comes very close to the level of grain and definitely outdoes the alfalfa, and I can definitely get beet pulp. Molasses might also be an option for raw calories if someone can make useful suggestions for dosage. I know it's sometimes given to ketotic cows? I also see it advertised for use in balancing out overly high protein/fiber feeds, which is definitely the problem we started with.

I also am hoping they are not bred at this point. They don't need any additional strain while recovering. I'm also considering not breeding them in the fall, make sure they can keep the weight on next winter with an improved feed program.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

MDKatie said:


> And beet pulp isn't really a high calorie food, it's a high fiber food.


Do you have a data source to contradict my data source? 

From Carol's book, Digestible Energy, Mcal/lb
timothy hay: 0.76-1.34
early bloom alfalfa hay: 1.01-1.22
Oats 1.29-1.54
Beet pulp 2.99-3.07
Corn 3.45-3.48

That puts beet pulp in the middle of the grain range as a fairly high calorie food. Isn't the point of the rumen to digest fiber into proteins and fats? You and I would not get much out of beet pulp, but they could.


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## Dfreddie (Mar 24, 2014)

I agree with MDKatie. These lambs need more than what they're getting. My point earlier was you may not want to feed it but at this point these are not butcher animals so therefore what they eat won't affect your health just theirs and it's not working. 

I feed my senior horse soaked beet pulp for fiber and forage. You won't get much more benefit than that.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

They have been on this new ration one week, why do you say it is not working? I agree the previous diet of overly mature hay was not working.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

dlskidmore said:


> They have been on this new ration one week, why do you say it is not working? I agree the previous diet of overly mature hay was not working.


In fact, I consider the new lack of appetite for the low quality feed a milestone of success that they are no longer so hungry that they feel forced to eat it.


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## Dfreddie (Mar 24, 2014)

dlskidmore said:


> They have been on this new ration one week, why do you say it is not working? I agree the previous diet of overly mature hay was not working.



I guess I misunderstood that were on a new one. I was thinking you just upped what they had been getting slightly.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Dfreddie said:


> I guess I misunderstood that were on a new one. I was thinking you just upped what they had been getting slightly.


I doubled the hay ration, all-you-can-eat, and moved the alfalfa from occasional handfuls when I need them to do something to 1.5 lbs a day. Also the pasture is starting to come in and they're getting more nutrition off of that than they could in winter.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

dlskidmore said:


> Small-Scale Livestock Farming by Carol Ekarius recommends 8-8.4% protein for gestation and lactating sheep.
> 
> One person suggested protein levels should be at 22%, I think that's pretty much only possible with beans/peas or spent brewers grain? No-one else has chimed in on the 22% number. Unprocessed grain will not help with protein levels.


8% protein is no where near high enough for lactating animals. IMO, 22% is too high, and you'd be wasting protein. I think 16% would be good, like I mentioned before. 

I mean really, the only way to see if your way is good is to see if they gain weight on it. It'd be really great if you had a scale, but if not you'll have to keep putting your hands on them and monitoring it, and perhaps take pictures so you can compare to something. 

Beet pulp is good, but I'm not sure beet pulp alone would do it. I feed it to my sheep currently, because I originally got it as a fiber source for my goats and they turned their noses up to it. I'm mixing it in the sheep feed until I run out. When I run out, I won't buy any more. It's expensive and I am feeding a high quality alfalfa so I don't really need it.

And it would be a good idea to do a preg test on each ewe so you know for sure if they are bred. You don't want to be feeding the right balance if they're bred, so you don't end up with huge lambs.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm looking into actually growing fodder beets for next winter. The beet pulp has all the simple sugars extracted from it, the actual root should have better nutrition. It is a traditional winter supplement to forage diets.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

MDKatie said:


> 8% protein is no where near high enough for lactating animals. IMO, 22% is too high, and you'd be wasting protein. I think 16% would be good, like I mentioned before.


It is the total ration percentage, not the supplement percentage. If feeding beside a low protein hay, you'd want a supplement significantly higher than the target percentage value.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

dlskidmore said:


> It is the total ration percentage, not the supplement percentage. If feeding beside a low protein hay, you'd want a supplement significantly higher than the target percentage value.


Did you read all of the info on Sheep201 about balancing rations and nutritional requirements? Lots of good info there.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

MDKatie said:


> Did you read all of the info on Sheep201 about balancing rations and nutritional requirements? Lots of good info there.


I did, but it has been awhile. I should review it. I should also review the information on forage analysis from the Cornell seminar. There were a lot of acronyms and technical items there, I know I didn't absorb it all, and I definitely did not send a sample of my hay to the lab as I should have. If I'd done forage analysis instead of looking up tables I'd have known the digestible energy of my hay was too low. I lack the experience to judge hay by feel/sight and should not have done so.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

dlskidmore said:


> I lack the experience to judge hay by feel/sight and should not have done so.


It's not just experience...even the most experienced person can't tell protein % or other numbers by sight/smell/feel. I mentioned before the bermuda grass that wasn't very green at all, looked pretty drab, but was very high quality by the analysis. It shocked even the forage experts.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I really appreciate all the effort you are going to for your sheep...but I think you are way over analyzing this for your situation. If I get this right, you have a ewe that you think might be bred and is very thin- perhaps a 5 out of 10? or was it 5 out of 5? I'd think about anything you could get down her would be good for her. Worry about all the %'s and ins and outs later. Soy is only a digestion problem if it isn't cooked, right? (Unless like me you have GMO issues). I don't feed soy, in general, but if I had a starving ewe, I would. 

%'s are just something to guide you. Not all oats are 6% and not all soy is 40%....it's a guideline to use. Feed that poor thing something and adjust her ration more when she's in better shape.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Callieslamb said:


> %'s are just something to guide you. Not all oats are 6% and not all soy is 40%....it's a guideline to use. Feed that poor thing something and adjust her ration more when she's in better shape.


Hence me drastically upping the alfalfa and then coming for more detailed advice.

Do I need to worry at all about overdoing it, or could I work up to free choice feeding until she's a good weight? 

I'm going to pick up the beet pulp and provide it in a separate container from the alfalfa, let them choose if they want it, maybe mix some alfalfa at first until I know they've gotten a good taste of the new stuff. I'm also looking at further increasing the alfalfa. Every few days I'm going out to inspect the grass, there are plenty of new grass blades they've not nipped the tops off of yet, so there is hope for better production later. I've got to find another fence contractor since the first two have not given me quotes yet.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Callieslamb said:


> I think you are way over analyzing this


A habit. It can be a good habit because I usually walk into situations well informed about what I'm doing, but it can also be a bad habit because it can cause action paralysis and sometimes any action is better than no action. Also can be bad when I think I know more than I really know, or have incorrectly combined the accumulated facts into conclusions.

And there I go, over-analyzing my over-analyzing.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

I'd feed the alfalfa pellets and hay free choice.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

dlskidmore said:


> Hence me drastically upping the alfalfa and then coming for more detailed advice.
> 
> Do I need to worry at all about overdoing it, or could I work up to free choice feeding until she's a good weight?
> 
> I'm going to pick up the beet pulp and provide it in a separate container from the alfalfa, let them choose if they want it, maybe mix some alfalfa at first until I know they've gotten a good taste of the new stuff. I'm also looking at further increasing the alfalfa. Every few days I'm going out to inspect the grass, there are plenty of new grass blades they've not nipped the tops off of yet, so there is hope for better production later. I've got to find another fence contractor since the first two have not given me quotes yet.


Am sure you already know... but just in case... do not feed Beet pulp dry.
Make sure you soak it for no more than an hour or two.
Depending on who the maker is.. the volume will double or triple.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

bergere said:


> Am sure you already know... but just in case... do not feed Beet pulp dry.


I appreciate the reminder. Especially important while the girls are wolfing their food...


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

You know, you have grass-fed, and you have feedlot-fed, and then you've got an awful lot of gray area in the middle. I usually find that, unless you have 30 acres of grass/clover/alfalfa pasture to graze 100 sheep on, you're going to be safer by staying somewhere in that gray area. From May 1st to lambing (usually mid Nov. lambing starts for us), our sheep get nothing but pasture (grass and clover), fresh water and free choice loose sheep mineral. As they lamb, they get a sheep feed mix of rolled corn, soybean meal, and 32% protein lamb starter pellets with a little molasses sprayed on and mixed together. Our local feed mill makes this up for us. This grain mix has all the copper and other nutrients our sheep needs, and combine that with the sheep mineral, we never have health issues. They get about 1 lb of this grain mix twice a day while lactating. (About 3 months). When the lambs are weaned and the sheep are back out to pasture in the spring, the grain feeding stops. The rams get no grain at all until before they are put with the ewes. We do have a creep feeder for our lambs and they get the same mix as the ewes get. In the winter and early spring, along with their grain mix, they get all the mixed grass/clover/alfalfa hay they'll eat. Sheep don't like stemmy hay. They like leafy, weedy hay. They love clover and other wildflowers in their hay. They love blackberry brambles too. Our ewes always come out of winter slightly leaner than when they came off the grass in the fall, but not a lot, and some of that is because they have lambed and been nursing twins or triplets. Our ewes are rarely ribby and never hippy. I do think you have to find a gray area that works for you unless you're blessed with bountiful pastures year after year that just happens to have the ideal minerals or you're willing to put a lot of time, effort, and money into soil/forage testing and remedial treatments. My sheep may not be strictly grass fed, but my sheep are not feed lot sheep, and my sheep are healthy. To me, that's the most important thing.
Are your sheep wormy perhaps? I know even a moderate parasite load can bring down the weight in a hurry.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

thequeensblessing said:


> Are your sheep wormy perhaps? I know even a moderate parasite load can bring down the weight in a hurry.


I owe the vet samples to determine that. Their eyelids look good and their stool was a good texture before the sudden increase in protein. (It's a bit clumpy now rather than forming pellets.)


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

thequeensblessing said:


> unless you're blessed with bountiful pastures year after year that just happens to have the ideal minerals


As far as minerals goes, I am supplementing minerals, I'm only worried about the copper content. If my pastures have very little copper, and the mineral is copper free, a low level supplement may be in order. I need to send in forage samples when it grows a little taller.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I&#8217;d still like you to consider that a pregnant ewe, who is due pretty soon, is going to have boney hips. If you aren&#8217;t weighing them and they have a good coat on, you can&#8217;t tell by looking or by their hip areas. Do you have any way of actually weighing them?

Your elevator should have sheep salt/minerals for sheep. This should have a level of copper that relates to your area. Talk to someone in the office about it. If there is someone local to you with sheep, contact that person and ask what they do. When I started with sheep a local woman wrote the formula for the elevator and that is what I bought.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I don't think there is such a place around here, both my local mentors mix their own as a blend of two branded minerals. There is a feed mill, they might be able to do a custom job, but I'd have to make a significant minimum order.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I've never heard that weight is a good way to monitor sheep condition, most say to use body condition score. I could use a scale to make sure individuals are gaining weight, but we don't know how much of that is wool, baby, or condition.

I'm starting to suspect one of the two thin ones is pregnant. She is wider in the mid section and has a bigger appetite.

At three pounds pet head per day the girls don't eat all the feed.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Pre soaking has majorly affected my morning core schedule. The alfalfa pellet bag says not to let it soak more than 30 minutes, the beet pulp does not soften in that time, can I soak the beet hours ahead or will it spoil?


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

bergere said:


> Am sure you already know... but just in case... do not feed Beet pulp dry.
> Make sure you soak it for no more than an hour or two.
> Depending on who the maker is.. the volume will double or triple.


Thank you for adding that. I was hoping someone would say it by the end of reading all the replies or I was going to have to mention it. You are definately correct. I don't have to use it right now but in the past when I have used it I would soak it overnight and feed in the am. For me that meant to put it in and soak from about midnight till 6 am.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/dumorreg;-sheep-mineral-50-lb


Do you have a TSC nearby?


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

I don't soak the beet pellets when I feed them, but I also mix them in with other feed and don't feed them just alone. It's important to soak them with horses, but many feed to their sheep and goats w/o soaking.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

thequeensblessing said:


> http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/dumorreg;-sheep-mineral-50-lb


That is what I'm using. It is copper free, not specifically formulated for our local soils that nearby sheep farmers say is copper deficient.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

MDKatie said:


> I don't soak the beet pellets when I feed them, but I also mix them in with other feed and don't feed them just alone. It's important to soak them with horses, but many feed to their sheep and goats w/o soaking.


Katie was not doing well with dry alfalfa pellets, and the beet pellet are harder, so I definitely have to soak.


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## lexierowsell (Dec 10, 2013)

Wasn't going to chime in on this re:sheep because I'm a newbie, however with 20+ years horse feeding experience, it's not necessary to feed beet pulp soaked to horses. I usually do all the same (I soak all my horse feed), but it does not "expand in their stomach and soak up all the fluids causing colic". The biggest concern (IME) with dry beet pulp is choke, and it applies to any and all concentrated foodstuffs. 

The last big show barn I ran BP soaked anywhere from 24 hours to 10 minutes.

Eta: my sheep will not touch wet feeds. They are choosy and don't get much supplementation (1 qt divided over 17 head), just enough to get them penned and get their mineral supplement into them. I feed custom blend sprouted whole grains, 18% protein- along with 5 acres of pasture that's been horse hay for a few years.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

At this point they aren&#8217;t growing much wool. If you had a starting weight and a weight today it would give you some idea of what is going on. If they are gaining weight and still have boney hips, the weight is probably going to a lamb.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

lexierowsell said:


> Wasn't going to chime in on this re:sheep because I'm a newbie, however with 20+ years horse feeding experience, it's not necessary to feed beet pulp soaked to horses. I usually do all the same (I soak all my horse feed), but it does not "expand in their stomach and soak up all the fluids causing colic". The biggest concern (IME) with dry beet pulp is choke, and it applies to any and all concentrated foodstuffs.
> 
> The last big show barn I ran BP soaked anywhere from 24 hours to 10 minutes.
> 
> Eta: my sheep will not touch wet feeds. They are choosy and don't get much supplementation (1 qt divided over 17 head), just enough to get them penned and get their mineral supplement into them. I feed custom blend sprouted whole grains, 18% protein- along with 5 acres of pasture that's been horse hay for a few years.


Agreed, the reason I soaked my beet pulp was choking.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

Great discussion thread! I've no livestock, but have been reading here a lot for a long time and am an highly analytical person by nature.

I would think that you_ really_ need to get the fecals done, isn't that a huge variable in the nutrition train? Pregnancy testing too?

You can formulate the best nutrition plan on earth but if they have parasites it will hugely skew the condition of the animal that you are evaluating the physical condition of to adjust what you are feeding. Same goes with whether they are preggers or not.

Best of luck to you, look forward to following the discussion.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

aart said:


> You can formulate the best nutrition plan on earth but if they have parasites it will hugely skew the condition of the animal that you are evaluating the physical condition of to adjust what you are feeding. Same goes with whether they are preggers or not.


Agreed on the parasites, but not on the preggers. If they're getting all they can eat of a high protein ration, that is good for growing lambs or regaining condition. I can be patient on the lamb front.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

If it were solely that they were going to lamb, I would say you should see other symptoms. By the time any of our pregnant ewes start to drop enough to look bony in the hips, they are sporting some sort of a growing udder and are starting to some small degree at least to swell in the nether regions.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I checked last week and the udders were almost flat, just a wee bit of fatty tissue there.

I think until I have a lamb on the ground and need to decide about supplementing a bottle as well as all you can eat feed for the ewe it doesn't matter. I mean, it matters in that there are effects, but nothing I can do about it unless I want to force an abortion, which I don't.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I am starting to plan for next winter so we don't get a repeat of this fiasco. Obviously my hay is insufficient in bad harvest years, so I need to diversify my feed. In order to diversify my feed without doing grain/beans, I'm working on adding root vegetables to the winter rations. This is a traditional winter feed and it's the source of the modern beet pulp feed additive.

http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/2912

You have to feed a lot more by weight because it is not a dried product, it is mostly water. Some recommendations were 2-5 lbs per head per day. There were warnings not to overfeed them to rams, but some people find them useful for flushing as well as winter feed.

Some folks on the vegetable forum are helping me plan the logistics of growing them: http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/co...propagation/513644-fodder-beets-radishes.html

I even picked up an antique root grinder. It's like a giant cheese grater, with a little hopper sending the roots down into the spinning grater wheel, and 1-2" pieces come out the other side. I think it's worth more as an antique than I paid for it, but the former owner liked the idea that I was going to actually use it.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I now have a scale of sorts. Needs adjustment and assembly. Maybe this weekend. Won't provide "is this enough" info, but will confirm direction of progress.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Oh, and although my vet would not comment, the fencing contractor thinks Janice is pregnant. Trying to give her and the other skinny one more than they can eat twice a day, then let the others clean up the leftovers. They love the beet pellets more than alfalfa, but they need more soaking and they had to get used to it.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

dlskidmore said:


> That is what I'm using. It is copper free, not specifically formulated for our local soils that nearby sheep farmers say is copper deficient.



And not only copper free, but the manufacturer adds an unspecified amount of molybdenum to bind any other copper it can find. 

I don't feed any grains. I have a half-used bag of formulated sheep pellets that I only use for bribes. I used to have to feed a mix of any of the following: alfalfa pellets, sheep pellets, beet pulp, soybean meal and/or black-oil sunflower seeds to keep weight on, especially ewes in lactation. That was when I was feeding first cutting native grass/weeds, before I found better hay suppliers.

Now I feed second cutting mixed grass hay through the winter, and the ewes verge stay in great condition on that alone. After lambing I have a third cutting alfalfa/clover/grass mix that they love.

I would in your situation stick with the alfalfa pellets and the all you can eat hay, and ease them onto pasture. I might add black-oil sunflower for the good protein, fat, and vit/min content.


ETA: Also, go here: http://www.msusheepration.montana.edu/default.aspx
and get an account (it's free). Then you can create rations for your sheep, including inputting your own feedstuffs once you get them analyzed. 

To get analyses done, go here:
http://dairyone.com/analytical-services/feed-and-forage/about-forage/

They are very helpful, and getting hay analysed is not expensive.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

How often do I need to replace soaked pellets they don't eat? They are eating less and less of it. There will be some in the trough 10 hours later and they call for me to feed them. I cut back some, but I don't want to cut back too much. Ideally the trough would be almost empty at the next feeding.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I think Katie and Janice are in heat today.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Feeds and feeding was my WORST class, so keep the source in mind! I almost flunked!

I do remember that alfalfa plus grass is a wonderful ration, as the 2 feeds give a balanced protein and the minerals are also better balanced. Are your sheep on full pasture? You mentioned that you intended them to be.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

After reading all the above I see 2 things, mistakes from lack of knowledge. #1, the need to get back to basics. Sheep eat grass, cheap, easy and GOOD. Hay is grass, dried for when the green grass is not available or good enough, but always available. 2nd is, way to many changes, too quickly. Add protein supplements slowly as needed, before lambing and after, for milk production. 

I had a commercial flock and used byproducts of my farming operation to feed them. Grass seed straw always available, screening pellets (with and without molasses) and protein blocks as energy needs changed before and after lambing. Minerals always available. I raised cheap lamb this way, using otherwise wasted feeds....James


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

The grass is not good enough to support them yet. We are getting more fence in a couple weeks, and the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. The grass is better than the hay, they have no interest in the hay any more, but I am keeping up with as much alfalfa and beet pulp as they want.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

They need good grass hay, forage first, then the supplements added as needed....James


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Well, I must have done something right. Katie safely delivered her lamb today. I'm cutting fresh grass to bring her in the lambing jug since I don't trust my hay.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Everybody's getting sizable piles of fresh clippings. Hubby decided it had to be mowed, but I've no confidence in my ability to cure hay, so I figure I can store some of it on the sheep's backs. We are getting a sizable streak of good weather coming, so I might be able to get a little put up correctly.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Janice safely delivered her lamb yesterday. Today the fence installers are getting started, should have a pasture full of nice tall grass by the weekend.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Congratulations on your new babies.

As for pasture, sheep prefer weeds to grass, so if you have broadleaf weeds they will happily munch on that.


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