# Where Tactical Collides Headlong with Practical



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

This is my current deer rig.

Normally, zero-check for this rifle is literally one round, about this time of year, just to reassure myself that nothing went wrong and I can still make a humane kill with it. At that usage, it normally gets cleaned about once every 4-5 years.

This year, I added a different can to it, did some S&G sub-sonic full-auto shooting (different lower) with the neighbor, and <gasp> finally cleaned it. That came with the requisite re-foul, and getting some POI-shift notes on it. For me, zeroing a hunting rifle can take several hours, as I like to make sure that I know exactly how it acts. That means getting a couple normal groups, as well as a 5-10 round cold-bore group, with shots placed on a separate target, one at a time throughout the shooting session.


It’s now back to leaning in the corner, with my confidence that it’ll quickly kill what I point it at.



I know there are a few regulars here who will be clutching their pearls at the sight of an AR being used for hunting, but taken on its specs alone, it’s perfect for the task.

This one is zeroed for 110gr Barnes TAC-TX polymer-tipped copper solids doing 2420 FPS though my chronograph. That’s extremely close to .30-30 ballistics, with a bullet that has better terminal ballistics than anything commonly loaded for a .30-30... so the cartridge is stout enough. And, shooting with 1/2-3/4 MOA consistency, it’s probably more accurate than most .30-30s.

The silencer makes it so that I don’t need to wear ear-pro, and an early morning shot won’t wake up the wife and dogs, even within 100 or so yards of the house. The 16” barrel and added length of the silencer puts it around the length of a 24” hunting rifle.

I could obviously use 30/40/60/100 round magazines in it, but generally carry it with 5 rounds in a 10rd magazine, with a spare in my pocket. I’ve never actually used 10rds in a day of deer hunting, but can’t convince myself to not carry a spare mag. Even when I hunted with a ‘94 Winchester as a kid, I always had a full mag and a few spares in a pocket. The shorter magazine makes a good monopod in the window of the tobacco barn I hunt out of, and doesn’t get in the way of the sticks I use in my blind.

The sling is even set up for single-point style carry, with the rifle slung across my chest, instead of Elmer Fudd-style, over my shoulder. I started installing sling studs on the heel and at 11 o’clock on the forend tip, on a bolt action, years ago. I’ve found that I can more safely carry a rifle through the woods, retaining use of both hands, and bring the rifle up more quickly when needed, with it slung across my chest rather than across my back.

It doesn’t look at all like the rifles I grew up hunting with, but I have no intention of going back. It seems odd at first blush, but it’s no puzzle that the things that make for a good battle rifle are easily applied to the deer woods as well.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

You never said what caliber it is.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

muleskinner2 said:


> You never said what caliber it is.


Sorry. I usually think in bullet weight/velocity. It's a .300 AAC Blackout.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

The sling, a Viking Tacital Mod2, tacticool as it may look, has a defined purpose as well. Carried this way (I'm right-handed), the butt ends up just off the right side of my chin, and the muzzle down off of my left hip. 

I leave the sling open so I can throw it over my head and left arm quickly, even when wearing a heavy coat. If I need to mount the rifle quickly, I pull it out with my support hand, and wrap my left elbow into it. As I'm planting the butt on my right shoulder, my right hand grabs the loose end by the funky looking buckle on the right side, and tugs outward before heading for the grip and trigger. That cinches the sling down and locks the rifle to your shoulder like a traditional rifleman's sling. You can literally go from carry-sling to match-sling all while shouldering the rifle, without adding any time to your mount.

The sling was designed by Kyle Lamb, a former Delta SGM. That alone might make some dismiss its relevance in meat hunting, but that's kinda the point I was trying to make. 

Distilled down to colorless specs and requirements, a sling that quickly goes from secure, hands-free carry to rock-solid supported rifle is useful, regardless whether you're hunting enemies or sausage ingredients.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

built a 300bo a few years ago , my dad started shooting deer again after building his I think he had been avoiding shooting deer with his old 870 with multiple fusions in he low back , neck , shoulder surgery he was very recoil sensitive.

virtually no recoil he has taken deer both years he has had his and it had been years before that.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

I own several AR's but this sure wouldn't be my cup of tea for hunting.
I'm sure you are competent and safe, I'm sure the gun does the job, etc. but I would have misgivings about hunting with anyone that carried one of those, and the same about giving permission to hunt on my place. 

I probably come off as just a crabby, close minded old guy for voicing those opinions, but I'm sure that I'm not alone.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

What if it were a mini 30?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Fishindude said:


> I own several AR's but this sure wouldn't be my cup of tea for hunting.
> I'm sure you are competent and safe, I'm sure the gun does the job, etc. but I would have misgivings about hunting with anyone that carried one of those, and the same about giving permission to hunt on my place.
> 
> I probably come off as just a crabby, close minded old guy for voicing those opinions, but I'm sure that I'm not alone.


I wouldn’t say “crabby” or “close-minded”, but that was part of the point I was trying to make when I posted my deer hunting rig- pointing out its coincidental “tactical” orientation.

At the end of the day, it is a scoped semi-auto .30 cal with 5 rounds in the magazine.

In many parts of the world, where silencers are not so heavily regulated, that muffler on the end would have this rifle viewed as more civilized, and even “cultured” than a bolt-action without one.

So, what part is it that triggers people?
The shape of the receiver?
The silencer?
Lack of a wooden stock?

I’m not trying to argue with you. Just trying to engage a discussion I think is worth having.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Fishindude said:


> I own several AR's but this sure wouldn't be my cup of tea for hunting.
> I'm sure you are competent and safe, I'm sure the gun does the job, etc. but I would have misgivings about hunting with anyone that carried one of those, and the same about giving permission to hunt on my place.
> 
> I probably come off as just a crabby, close minded old guy for voicing those opinions, but I'm sure that I'm not alone.


Are you fearful of stray shots? Explain why you say that.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

It is currently reported as the most popular rifle platform in America.

I sort of take issue with guys who go out with your basic 55gr. .223 for deer.

I know it will take a deer, but I question the proficiency of some who jump on the bandwagon.

I do the same with some of the "long range" hunting.

All of a sudden everyone wants to drop a deer at 750 yards.

A skilled hunter, knowing his firearm and it's limitations and his own limitations will never be an issue.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

I have an AR pistol with an arm brace and suppressor, in 300 black out. I use it to cull unwanted pests, rabbits, coyotes, feral dogs. Nothing I have ever shot can tell the difference between this and a wooden stocked bolt gun.

For larger game, deer, elk, moose I use a Ruger Scout .308 with suppressor.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

JJ Grandits said:


> It is currently reported as the most popular rifle platform in America.
> 
> I sort of take issue with guys who go out with your basic 55gr. .223 for deer.
> 
> ...


I agree about the 55gr Ball for deer sized game- or Ball of just about any caliber, really. A velocity-matched terminal-performance .223 round would give me no pause, however. 

To your point about long-range hunting. I get the attraction, but, then again, I don’t hunt for sport. I hunt for meat, and actually find the killing part to be somewhat distasteful. 

Given that a humane kill requires (1) shot-placement, (2) energy, and (3) terminal performance, long-range shots potentially compromise all three. A small miscalculation in your ballistic solution can equate to a large change in POI, and distance slows the velocity, which changes the expansion characteristics of your projectile. Practice and proper load design can mitigate those risks, but I generally prefer to prove that out on steel, and keep my kills close and sure.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

muleskinner2 said:


> I have an AR pistol with an arm brace and suppressor, in 300 black out.


That’s one area where the .300 BO really shines. It doesn’t lose much, if any, of its 16” performance in a 8-9” barrel. 

I keep a braced .300 BO pistol in my truck. Being a pistol, it is legal to keep loaded and concealed in my car, but it’s basically like having a 30rd .30-30 or 7.62x39 at the ready. 

what silencer do you have on yours?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> That’s one area where the .300 BO really shines. It doesn’t lose much, if any, of its 16” performance in a 8-9” barrel.
> 
> I keep a braced .300 BO pistol in my truck. Being a pistol, it is legal to keep loaded and concealed in my car, but it’s basically like having a 30rd .30-30 or 7.62x39 at the ready.
> 
> what silencer do you have on yours?


Agreed, it is a handy package. I use a YHM Phantom .308 silencer. It's a little heavy, but I couldn't wear it out in my lifetime. It is all stainless steel, designed for belt fed full auto use.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

muleskinner2 said:


> Agreed, it is a handy package. I use a YHM Phantom .308 silencer. It's a little heavy, but I couldn't wear it out in my lifetime. It is all stainless steel, designed for belt fed full auto use.


Nice.
The Phantom is a classic - which is funny to say because it isn’t that old, but that’s the way with silencers; new becomes “vintage” very quickly.

I had an integral .22 here for a while that was only 15 years old, but it was completely not user-serviceable, which is unfathomable for a “modern” rimfire can.

Yankee Hill is like the Russian tractors of the silencer industry. Hard to beat on price, and impossible to beat on durability.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

one of the other things that is very practical about the tactical is when you just finished hunting in the sleet , snow ,rain mix all day , in about a minute you are all broken down to let it dry on an old towel on the dining room table , wipe it down with an oil rag lube a few parts at re-assembly another minute or two and done and ready to hunt again it the morning .

no tools required.

vs you just spent the day in the slurry of rain snow sleet with your classic lever gun , go find the screw driver set.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> So, what part is it that triggers people?
> The shape of the receiver?
> The silencer?
> Lack of a wooden stock?
> ...





HDRider said:


> Are you fearful of stray shots? Explain why you say that.


Will explain best I can.
In my mind the AR is a "battle rifle". I'm not at war with the deer, it's a sport.

For every well informed, gun savvy individual that owns an AR there are at least 15 others that are relatively uninformed knuckleheads that bought an AR because "they can" and the majority of their experience is rapidly burning up the cheapest ammo they can find at beer cans behind the house. They don't know how to sight them in, they know little or nothing about ammo, and if they do put optics or accessories on the gun it will be junk stuff they know little about. I live in a pretty rural, gun friendly, pro second amendment area. I know these guys and see them in the gun shops and at the ranges. Most are not dedicated hunters, they are a guy that wants to go out and shoot something with his AR because he can. 

So I guess the best I can answer is that if you get out of the truck with an AR at my hunting area, there are 15 to 1 odds that you are going to be one of the "because I can" crowd, not a seasoned experienced hunter. It's also not the image of a hunter that I want my grand kids or people uniformed or new to the sport to see, as many look at the black guns as being "scary", which won't help opening up the sport, gaining access to lands, etc.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

FishinDude I think you might be giving the guys who show up with a bolt action off the shelf scope rifle combo who has fired less than 2 boxes of 20 in the guns life way to much credit.

but I suppose at least they don't look threatening.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Fishindude said:


> Will explain best I can.
> In my mind the AR is a "battle rifle". I'm not at war with the deer, it's a sport.


That is a fair point Fishindude.

I think there are also quite a few women that dress in a certain manner, just because "they can" who have caused quite a few accidents while walking along the sidewalk during heavy traffic. They are dangerous.
An off the shelf box store AR to me, is not a battle rifle. It isn't my choice if I were to be dropped into the middle of an armed conflict nor do I believe most military view it as one. But it is sexy.

My neighbor's nephew traded in his faded green jon boat for a glittery purple hi horse mercury fishing boat. Will it catch the fish faster? No. Then again, he prefers to jug fish...
All are because they can.

I hunt primarily with an 870. Love using my Mini 14. My son prefers an AR.
Yes, knuckle heads are drawn to the sexy. But my personal experience is that I have seen more idiots in the woods and around a truck with a shotgun and bolt actions. I have seen or heard about dogs, cats and livestock shot by morons with a side by side or an old Marlin.
There is a guy down the road that lives on 1 acre. He doesn't touch a gun until November. Doesn't site it, target practice or even clean it that I am aware of. Every fall his brother and his two sons stop by his house. They drink, strap on their single shots and stumble behind his house. Once they have sufficiently scared and run off anything breathing from his ground, they wander onto their neighbor's properties. No one keeps track of where anyone is. Shots go off with no idea of what is behind their targets and if they are lucky they will wound no animals, because they have no clue how to track one and I doubt they have the skills to make a kill shot.
No, I would not want these guys with ARs. I wouldn't want to hear perpetual mag dumps nor see a hog with three wounds fleeing thru my timber. But the fact that they had one wouldn't influence my decision to allow them to hunt. They were already idiots.
My point is, just like with mass shootings, it isn't the gun. It is never the gun.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> FishinDuce I think you might be giving the guys who show up with a bolt action off the shelf scope rifle combo who has fired less than 2 boxes of 20 in the guns life way to much credit.
> 
> but I suppose at least they don't look threatening.


This. 

The first part of my career was spent in retail, and my experience behind the gun counter has kept me out of public hunting lands for the rest of my life.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> FishinDude I think you might be giving the guys who show up with a bolt action off the shelf scope rifle combo who has fired less than 2 boxes of 20 in the guns life way to much credit.


True dat !


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I hunt with a Soviet SVT-40
Because it’s comfortable 
For some it’s the ultimate scary gun for others it’s cute. 
I just wish suppressors were legal here. 
I’d just as soon not bother my neighbors or that they know what I’m doing.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I agree about the 55gr Ball for deer sized game- or Ball of just about any caliber, really. A velocity-matched terminal-performance .223 round would give me no pause, however.
> 
> To your point about long-range hunting. I get the attraction, but, then again, I don’t hunt for sport. I hunt for meat, and actually find the killing part to be somewhat distasteful.
> 
> Given that a humane kill requires (1) shot-placement, (2) energy, and (3) terminal performance, long-range shots potentially compromise all three. A small miscalculation in your ballistic solution can equate to a large change in POI, and distance slows the velocity, which changes the expansion characteristics of your projectile. Practice and proper load design can mitigate those risks, but I generally prefer to prove that out on steel, and keep my kills close and sure.


I'm not a huge fan of the "long range hunting" thing either.

I've got swingers off my back deck at 407 and 547 yards, so I shoot frequently, often just to see what happens due the conditions. With a 12lb precision rifle equipped with 20X MIL Reticle scope:

Launching a 105 grn Berger hybrid at 3150 FPS with a load with an SD of 7FPS
Using a Kestrel for conditions/wind
Ballistic app with multiple MVs at different temps
Prone off bipod with rear rest on a level concrete slab.

Basically about as perfect shooting conditions as you can get. I still can't achieve 100% 1st round hits within an 8" circle at 547. Which is pretty much my self imposed accuracy standard on a game animal. IF the wind is "twitchy" I might even be off an 11.5" plate at that distance. 

A while back my organization did a handbook targeted towards commanders in coordination with the Army sniper school concerning employment in mountainous terrain. Part of the book dealt with hit probabilities at distance and not to get into detail (cause I can't), but once you broke the 600 yard mark the 1st round hit probabilities started dropping on a man sized target. 

So, nope not a fan and I've got my own self-imposed limits depending on conditions, position, rest etc.


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