# Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not to protect you.



## cornbread (Jul 4, 2005)

Shooting Advice:

If you own a gun, you will appreciate this. If not, you should get one and learn how to use it. 

Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not to protect you. 

Never let someone or thing that threatens you get inside armâs length and never say "Iâve got a gun". If you feel you need to use deadly force for heavenâs sake let the "first sound they hear be the safety clicking off", and they shouldn't have time to hear anything after that if you are doing your job. 

'The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutesâ¦ the response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.' 

Clint Smith, Director of Thunder Ranch, is a drill instructor (Thunder Ranch is a firearms training facility in Arizona ). Here are a few of his observations on tactics, firearms, self-defense and life as we know it in the civilized world. 

"The most important rule in a gunfight is: Always win and cheat if necessary." 

"Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way.." 

"Make your attacker advance through a wall of bullets. You may get killed with your own gun, but he'll have to beat you to death with it, cause it's going to be empty." 

"If you're not shooting', you should be loading'. If you're not loading', you should be moving', if you're not moving', someone's going to cut your head off and put it on a stick." 

"When you reload in low light encounters, don't put your flashlight in your back pocket.. If you light yourself up, you'll look like an angel or the tooth fairy... and you're going to be one of 'em pretty soon." 

"Do something. It may be wrong, but do something." 

"Shoot what's available, as long as it's available, until something else becomes available." 

"If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If you have a gun, what in the heck do you have to be paranoid for?" 

"Don't shoot fast, unless you also shoot good." 

"You can say 'stop' or 'alto' or use any other word you think will work, but I've found that a large bore muzzle pointed at someone's head is pretty much the universal language." 

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problems.. How long you live depends on how well you do it." 

"You cannot save the planet, but you may be able to save yourself and your family." 

"Thunder Ranch will be here as long as you'll have us or until someone makes us go away, and either way, it will be exciting." 


More Excellent Gun Wisdomâ¦ 

The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental. 

1. Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. 

2. If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck. 

3. I carry a gun cause a cop is too heavy. 

4. When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away. 

5. A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him 'Why do you carry a 45?' The Ranger responded, 'Because they don't make a 46.' 

6. An armed man will kill an unarmed man with monotonous regularity. 

7. The old sheriff was attending an awards dinner when a lady commented on his wearing his sidearm. 'Sheriff, I see you have your pistol. Are you expecting trouble?' 'No ma'am. If I were expecting trouble, I would have brought my rifle.' 

8. Beware of the woman who only has one gun, because she probably knows how to use it very well. 

'The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.' G. K. Chesterton 

A people that values its privileges above its principles will soon lose both. 

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..." - Thomas Jefferson.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Words of wisdom.


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## Yldrosie (Jan 28, 2006)

to quote an unknow someone- " I carry a gun because a cop is too heavey."


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

cornbread said:


> Shooting Advice:
> 
> 
> 
> Never let someone or thing that threatens you get inside arm&#8217;s length and never say "I&#8217;ve got a gun". If you feel you need to use deadly force for heaven&#8217;s sake let the "first sound they hear be the safety clicking off", and they shouldn't have time to hear anything after that if you are doing your job.


I have to disagree with this, if I am unarmed.

If you are well trained in the martial arts this is exactly where you want an adversary. Except for maybe an explosive vest, there is no weapon in the world that you can hurt me with if I get ahold of you.


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## mommathea (May 27, 2009)

here's one

"Fight back! Whenever you are offered violence, fight back! The aggressor does not fear the law, so he must be taught to fear you. Whatever the risk, and at whatever the cost, fight back!" - Col. Jeff Cooper


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

tinknal said:


> I have to disagree with this, if I am unarmed.
> 
> If you are well trained in the martial arts this is exactly where you want an adversary. Except for maybe an explosive vest, there is no weapon in the world that you can hurt me with if I get ahold of you.


Never bring kung-fu to a gun fight.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

tinknal said:


> I have to disagree with this, if I am unarmed.
> 
> If you are well trained in the martial arts this is exactly where you want an adversary. Except for maybe an explosive vest, there is no weapon in the world that you can hurt me with if I get ahold of you.


 Except a knife,I spent 6hrs on a table after putting 3 .45's into a dead man.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Thought I'd add one. It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.


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## cast iron (Oct 4, 2004)

One correction in case anyone wants to pursue further info. Thunder Ranch moved from AZ to Lakeview Oregon some time ago, with a very limited schedule at the Original Thunder Ranch location in Mt. Home Texas.

That said, I highly recommend Clint Smith and Thunder Ranch should you desire some professional training. You need to plan ahead though as 2011 is full and it looks like only two classes left available in 2012. Mr. Smith is one the absolute best instructors in the business. His focus is on practical skills and mindset, unlike some other 'high speed operator' instructors who focus on the latest and greatest tactical training fads.

His dvd's are quite good as well, and well worth the cost, especially the 'Defensive Thinking' dvd, and the 'Concealed Carry for Ladies' dvd which he does along with his wife.

There are trailers for some of the dvd's on youtube. This one from his defensive shotgun dvd. You won't find many instructors using an old school side-by-side shotgun with a flashlight attached to the barrel using rubber bands or duct-tape in their training curriculum. Point being you don't necessarily need the latest and greatest go-fast equipment to effectively protect yourself and your family.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw[/ame]


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

"Never let someone or thing that threatens you get inside arm&#8217;s length"

WAY too close. An attacker can cover twenty feet in less than two seconds. Have your gun out, up and aimed when he(?) is at least that close, presuming you know its an attacker. 
The problem, of course, is we don't know we are under or about to be attacked until that last, possible, moment. We tend to blissfully glide through life unaware of our surroundings.

Therefore the first rule is to *PAY ATTENTION* to everyone and everything around you as best you can. Look around. Avoid dangerous venues... 'bad' neighborhoods, (large) crowds. Be ALERT! Stay alive.


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## mypatriotsupply (Jan 21, 2009)

And the most important thing: "I was in fear for my life. I was aiming for center mass. I'll talk to my attorney now."


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## Pelenaka (Jul 27, 2007)

Wayne02 said:


> His dvd's are quite good as well, and well worth the cost, especially the 'Defensive Thinking' dvd, and the 'Concealed Carry for Ladies' dvd which he does along with his wife.
> 
> There are trailers for some of the dvd's on youtube. This one from his defensive shotgun dvd. You won't find many instructors using an old school side-by-side shotgun with a flashlight attached to the barrel using rubber bands or duct-tape in their training curriculum. Point being you don't necessarily need the latest and greatest go-fast equipment to effectively protect yourself and your family.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw


Thanks for the heads up I'll add them to my amazon wish list. 
We looked into attending a school in Rochester but scheduling was an issue for us then the cost. I understand nothing beats in person training
this DVD should help fill the void.


~~ pelenaka ~~
http://thirtyfivebyninety.blogspot.com/


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

> "If you're not shooting', you should be loading'. If you're not loading', you should be moving', if you're not moving', someone's going to cut your head off and put it on a stick."


I like this one. MOVE! Get off the X for Heaven's sake!

This is why I chuckle to myself when I hear of the countless hours - and 1000s of rounds - that some people I know spend shooting holes in paper with thier self defense firearm while standing absolutely still and taking forever to aim.


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## mldollins (Jun 21, 2008)

It took cops 20 minutes to get to my house. What stopped them was jacking a shell into the chamber of my shotgun. All of my guns are loaded and ready to shoot except my shotgun.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

mypatriotsupply said:


> And the most important thing: "I was in fear for my life. I was aiming for center mass. I'll talk to my attorney now."


Not quite.

IMO, "I'll speak to you only when I have a lawyer present." should be the first out of your mouth.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Words to live by (pun intended): Shoot, move and communicate.


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## mypatriotsupply (Jan 21, 2009)

Here is a very good video with Massad Ayoob explaining what you should and should not tell police after a self defense shooting. Indicating that you were aiming for center mass is something my instructors taught me, but is not mentioned in the video.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2011/05/26/video-after-a-real-shooting/


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## michiganfarmer (Oct 15, 2005)

tinknal said:


> I have to disagree with this, if I am unarmed.
> 
> If you are well trained in the martial arts this is exactly where you want an adversary. Except for maybe an explosive vest, there is no weapon in the world that you can hurt me with if I get ahold of you.


I like it


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

tinknal said:


> I have to disagree with this, if I am unarmed.
> 
> If you are well trained in the martial arts this is exactly where you want an adversary. Except for maybe an explosive vest, there is no weapon in the world that you can hurt me with if I get ahold of you.


Unless they happen to be as good as you...or lucky.

Never, ever forget the first rule of a fight. Someone WILL lose; it might be you.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Excellent video.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Massad Ayoob: The Basics of Personal Protection, In the Gravest Extreme


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

For those of you who do not subscribe to "Backwoods Home Magazine" you have missed some great articles by Massad Ayoob. Ayoob is a regular writer for BWH. 

Ayoob's blog at BWH ==> http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/

BWH also carries the fuil line of books by Ayoob ==> http://www.backwoodshome.com/store/files/books.html#fh


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Been reading Ayoob since the mid-eighties. Great advice. Easy reading. Stuff to read and read again.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Had to shoot a snake thru a crack in the deck without hitting the hen he was strangling last night. Had gun in one hand and flashlight in the other. Glad I didn't have to 'splain to the law! LOL


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## KMA1 (Dec 9, 2006)

Always in these type of discussions, I see statements made from both sides of the fence about the distance from which you can protect yourself with a firearm and the old joke about bringing a knife or kung fu to a gunfight. On the other side, some people claim they can take on anything with their martial arts training within their effective fighting range. Based on my 38 years of training in the martial arts under some of the top masters in the country in both empty had fighting, and weapons fighting, including considerable experience with firearms, both sides are dead wrong.

Someone above said never let a person get inside your arms reach and you can defend yourself with a handgun. Well, I am here to tell you that there are a very significant number of martial artists that can take out a person a lot further away than within your reach. This is especially true if the person is armed and trained with a knife or other "Karate" weapons. 

Someone above talked about their experience of being cut badly even though he shot his opponent 3 times with a .45. A guy by the name of Dan Inosanto did a training film with LA Sherrifs Dept. close to 30 years ago. He demonstratedthat he could have killed all the deputies in the training scenario from I believe 21 feet away, even though the deputies were armed with their holstered sidearms and expecting trouble. Most were not even able to complete their draw before he had covered the distance and simulated cutting them with multiple deadly cuts. I believe the training film was titled the blade culture or something like that. It is something to think about if you carry a firearm as your only choice for protection. 

I know another martial artist, who was attacked by an assailant with a 2x4 with nails from a behind a blind corner. Even though he was carrying a handgun and was certainly better trained in using it that most, and perhaps most here, he had to respond to a deadly attack that was so fast he didn't even have time to try to draw. In that case it was his "kung fu" or in his case ----o ryu training that saved his life and killed one attacker and put the other 2 in the hospital, one in critical condition for several weeks. 

On the other hand, there is no such thing as a sure thing, no matter how good your training is. I also feel pretty confident as long as I am starting from my chosen range that I can defend against "most" people with a gun. First thing, I am not waiting on someone to draw a gun and stick it in my face if I can help it. Most of us train to begin our counter when the other person begins a move to draw, regardless of what they are drawing. This is whether we are armed or not. However, the closer to the edge you push, the greater the chances for failure, in anything. By the way, I am a full supporter of carrying a firearm for self defense, and do so when I can.

There was a great sage thsat taught that strategy is abosolute. That means that it is the same for 1 or a hundred, and regardless of the weapon. 

My point is, there are no guarentees, even when you have a gun. I know a lot of people who depend on a firearm, but haven't shot it in a year or more, much less carrying it all the time, and 2 to 3 sessions a week practicing drawing it as well as shooting, not just at a stationary target while standing still, but while the target and you are moving. It takes constant practice to improve, hone and maintain skills with a gun, knife or any other weapon, even your body.

I'll step off my soap box now.


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

KMA1 said:


> There was a great sage thsat taught that strategy is abosolute. That means that it is the same for 1 or a hundred, and regardless of the weapon.
> 
> My point is, there are no guarentees, even when you have a gun. I know a lot of people who depend on a firearm, but haven't shot it in a year or more, much less carrying it all the time, and 2 to 3 sessions a week practicing drawing it as well as shooting, not just at a stationary target while standing still, but while the target and you are moving. It takes constant practice to improve, hone and maintain skills with a gun, knife or any other weapon, even your body.
> 
> I'll step off my soap box now.


I'll agree with "there are no absolutes." I currently earn a living dealing with psychiatric patients, some of which are extremely violent. Let me tell ya right now, the first time I fought a 300 pound naked woman covered head to toe with vaseline was a true learning experience. No..no smilies. That hurt. 

Regardless of training and experience the day will come that you learn something new. 

Please explain "strategy is absolute". A knife and a pistol a require different strategies at 2 and twenty feet.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

tinknal said:


> I have to disagree with this, if I am unarmed.
> 
> If you are well trained in the martial arts this is exactly where you want an adversary. Except for maybe an explosive vest, there is no weapon in the world that you can hurt me with *if* I get ahold of you.


Biggest little word in the English language.


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

tyusclan said:


> Biggest little word in the English language.


So true.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

We all know it is obvious that you can't always protect yourself in all (or any given) situation(s). 
What we can do is harden ourselves as targets by being alert, being armed (to a greater or lesser degree) & trained and being in the best health we can manage.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

BE AWARE OF EVERYTHING GOING ON AROUND YOU...remember Col.Coopers color code??I was working at 3:00am when my gut/instinct told me to TURN AROUND...I hesitated for 10sec to finish what I was doing....it cost me 3mnths of healing-luckily because I was working at time all hospital/workers comp was covered...Never before and never again have I failed to listen to instinct....once was enough..


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Cascade Failure said:


> Unless they happen to be as good as you...or lucky.
> 
> Never, ever forget the first rule of a fight. Someone WILL lose; it might be you.


Ahh, but the same applies if you are both armed. I was speaking of the situation where the adversary is armed, and I am unarmed. Someone is pointing a gun at me 10 feet away there is really no offensive options (other than to close). If I am in arms reach I have an abundance of options.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

KMA1 said:


> A guy by the name of Dan Inosanto did a training film with LA Sherrifs Dept. close to 30 years ago. He demonstrated that he could have killed all the deputies in the training scenario from I believe 21 feet away, even though the deputies were armed with their holstered sidearms and expecting trouble. Most were not even able to complete their draw before he had covered the distance and simulated cutting them with multiple deadly cuts. I believe the training film was titled the blade culture or something like that. It is something to think about if you carry a firearm as your only choice for protection.


I remember that film - definitely an eye opener about how fast a situation can go south.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

Guns are great and in most situations, my weapon of choice. However, they are not always practical (metal detector screened building, in a dense crowd of people, etc.). We do shoot frequently here at home, if not weekly, but I still wouldn't consider us battle ready.

However, my 12yo daughter and I also study kajukenpo, a combat/street fighting form of martial arts that does include a good deal of weapons defense work and also knife and stick fighting (which our instructor often improvises to make us use things likely to by lying around, like rolled up magazines, hammers, short length of board, etc.). I would have to say that the martial arts training has done more to make me aware of the situation and my surroundings than any of the gun training I have done.

Back to the op, I disagree. In my area, there have been several instances where LE have used lethal force (shot) against someone who was trying to kill someone else. For example, a few years ago, an officer not too far from here used a head shot to take out a nut job who was holding a knife on his 6yo child and was about to start cutting her. The officer was in no way protecting himself, he was absolutely protecting the child.

I know there are plenty of bad cops and am all in favor of calling it like it is. But I resent anyone who tars all LE with the same brush. I know a number of cops who are the salt of the earth, people who I would trust with my and my family's lives. They deserve better than to be dissed by blanket accusations like the one in the op.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

ovsfarm: I'm not so sure that the title to this thread IS a dis on cops in general. The first use of a gun, or any other weapon should be to protect oneself. SWAT teams have snipers, and nobody can tell me how shooting someone 400 yards away is _self_-defense.
And certainly we all know that the ubiquitous sidearm isn't meant for longer range shooting, it is primarily a self-defense weapon. I would suggest that that is what this thread is about. Don't expect a cop to necessarily either be there, or if he is to use his gun to protect you. We all know how long a hostage situation can drag out while fifty policemen negotiate with the guy holding a knife to someone's throat.
Far better to avoid getting that knife to _your_ throat in the first place. That's what we're talking about. (Isn't it quaint how I use "talking" rather than "posting?")


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## therunbunch (Oct 5, 2009)

I can't believe I didn't read this sooner. Awesome, thanks for sharing.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

tinknal said:


> I have to disagree with this, if I am unarmed.
> 
> If you are well trained in the martial arts this is exactly where you want an adversary. Except for maybe an explosive vest, there is no weapon in the world that you can hurt me with if I get ahold of you.



I hear what you're saying, but.......Lesner said pretty much the same thing. Then he got his butt kicked twice.

There will always be someone that is a little more skilled, a little quicker, a little stronger than you (or me). Hopefully that person is not a thug...and he _probably_ isn't.


I agree that distance (unless it is a bunch!) is your enemy in the exact case you describe.


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

tinknal said:


> Ahh, but the same applies if you are both armed. I was speaking of the situation where the adversary is armed, and I am unarmed. Someone is pointing a gun at me 10 feet away there is really no offensive options (other than to close). If I am in arms reach I have an abundance of options.


The failed assumption here is that the armed person is not skilled in unarmed warfare.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Tinknal/Cascade, for some reason your dicussion reminds me of this video clip:

[YOUTUBE]4DzcOCyHDqc[/YOUTUBE]


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

Funny!


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## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

The classes I took all taught that a man with a knife 7 yards or closer is going to kill you...

Nearing 7 yards you had better already be out of the holster and aiming...

In TSHTF situations don't be a whisperer... If you're a stranger or a perceived threat, do your talking from outside of my 7 yard perimeter...


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## Jack Burton (Aug 11, 2013)

Any one who owns a gun should read and memorize the "Law of Self Defense." 

The book is by Andrew Blanca and is considered a masterpiece of solid info that just may save your family and you from the aftermath of a bad situation.

http://lawofselfdefense.com/preorder-now/


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