# Would #6 shot 12 gauge shells be adequate enough



## mldollins (Jun 21, 2008)

for self-defense in a shotgun? I know they recommend 00 or 0. But it would seem that any shot would do some severe damage and 6 or 8 shot could potentially leave a very nasty wound.

thanks


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## OkieDavid (Jan 15, 2007)

mldollins said:


> for self-defense in a shotgun? I know they recommend 00 or 0. But it would seem that any shot would do some severe damage and 6 or 8 shot could potentially leave a very nasty wound.
> 
> thanks


 #6 copper plated is what I use. At distances of less than 20 feet, that round will practically cut a person in half. At distances of 20-30 feet the blast radius of the round will only be a little over 1 foot in diameter while still packing enough punch to disable an attacker. It will also provide much greater protection to family members inside the house as the pellets will stop after traveling through only two or three layers of sheetrock. Buckshot will travel on through several more layers thus endangering family members who may be sleeping/hiding in a bedroom. I know several police officers who use 7 1/2 shot in their home defense weapon to provide adequate close in knockdown/kill while ensuring the wall catches any stray pellets. Keep in mind, police officers have to be prepared for VERY different scenerios than simple home self defense which is why they carry Buckshot and slugs (longer range). Inside your home you are talking about shots of 5-10-20 feet.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Bird shot is USELESS for self defense.
The fact that lots of people "use" it doesnt mean it's a good idea.
STUDIES show smaller shot will NOT penetrate enough even at inside -the-home distances



> Birdshot as a Defense Load
> I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?
> 
> We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. *The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round*. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.
> ...


http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm


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## BRYAN (Jul 5, 2008)

Ditto what OkieDavid said. In my mispent youth I killed a couple deer with #6 shot at a about 10 and 20 feet, they joined their ancesters with commendable rapidity. The damage was considerable.


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## denaliguide (Aug 30, 2008)

#4 to #8 shot will severely wound anyone not wearing Kevlar pants. Ask my buddy who got shot turkey hunting with #4 shot @ 20 yds. HE Was wounded, and required surgery.

Regardless of any other info, I suggest you perhaps test #6 shot on an animal cadaver of some sort if you need proof.. I have killed any number of ***** with #4 & #6 shot, out of trees, and **** leather is lots tougher than human skin. You'd be in fine shape, assuming no body armor on the thug. Other people in your dwelling would be safer.

Were it BEARS I'd tell ya to use SLUGS. USE SLUGS AGAINST those Wearing Body armor, it will crush their chest cavity.

Good Luck

DG




BRYAN said:


> Ditto what OkieDavid said. In my mispent youth I killed a couple deer with #6 shot at a about 10 and 20 feet, they joined their ancesters with commendable rapidity. The damage was considerable.


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## Iddee (Sep 25, 2005)

Practically all your fatal accidents with shotguns are with #4 or #6 shot. unless it happens while deer hunting.

I personally know of 3 or 4 who were killed by that size shot.
BTW, birdshot is #71/2 or #8 here. I have never heard of 4 or 6 being called birdshot.


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## cfabe (Feb 27, 2005)

Use larger shot, #1 or larger. Light shot will cause a nasty wound but it may not penetrate deeply enough to hit vital organs or central nervous system. Even with a "nasty wound" an attacker may not stop immediately. If you want to stop an attacker instantly you need a round that will penetrate deeper than bird shot will.


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## OkieDavid (Jan 15, 2007)

I should also qualify my above statement by admiting I wear a badge for a living. In service with a prior agency I had the opportunity to work a couple of shotgun fatalities (self inflicted, inflicted against an intruder, inflicted by a robber) and ANYONE who tells you #6 shot is not an effective close in "man killer" is fortunate they don't share my recurring dreams.....I've also had the misfortune of seeing what #0 buckshot did to the homeowners 6 year old daughter in her bedroom after traveling through three interior walls of sheetrock. Having seen the result of both buckshot and #6.....I use #6...

P.S. I've also never heard anything except 7 1/2 and 8 being called bird shot.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Iddee said:


> I personally know of 3 or 4 who were killed by that size shot.
> BTW, birdshot is #71/2 or #8 here. I have never heard of 4 or 6 being called birdshot.


Not to be funny, but what do y'all call it?

When the switch was made to steel shot, for waterfowl, the normal #4 and #2 lead are now #1, BBB and "T" steel shot.

#4's, #5's and #6's still lead, but steel required in some places, pheasants, rabbits, squirrels, varmints of the smaller type.

#7-1/2's and #8's are referred to as "trap loads" or for doves.

At 6ft #6's with most chokes would like getting hit with a slug, past that, the the pattern falls off (mass).

00 buck is still my choice for "Home protection", of course if all I had were # most anything, I would use what I had.


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## Tegerian (Mar 27, 2009)

At close range #6 will kill you as dead as 00 but at longer distances say 75 ft and beyond it's fairly harmless. I can verify this from person experience as we used 12ga. #6 in the detainees camps for riot control and the worst injuries they received were a "few" imbedded pellets.

For home protection I keep a mix of 00 and slugs in my 12ga, I believe this is a pretty good load-out for defense.


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## Wis Bang (Feb 20, 2009)

Beyond 20 feet you need the mass of a buckshot. Close range # 4 - 6 lead will do massive damage. Average home defense is 6 - 10 feet and over an ounce of shot going 1200 feet per second is going to get someone's attention.

I'd stick w/ #4 lead. 

Best thing to do is take an old section of plywood out behind the barn and try your choice @ 10 feet. It should blow a 5 -10 inch hole thru it. Walk back to 50 feet and see if any go thru. Bet 'ya they don't. 

Perrsonally I'll stick w/ my .38...


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## primroselane (May 10, 2002)

Would #6 shot 12 gauge shells be adequate enough?

Charlie Jones thinks so.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

hunter63 said:


> Not to be funny, but what do y'all call it?
> 
> When the switch was made to steel shot, for waterfowl, the normal #4 and #2 lead are now #1, BBB and "T" steel shot.
> 
> ...



Bird shot is 7&1/2 or 8. The larger size 6,5 and 4 is called game loads up to buckshot. The steel loads are used for any water foul. 

I have used a 4 shot in mine and if it is a high brass it will kill a person at 17 feet. I know this because it did for me. Any distance larger than 20 feet I would use buckshot or a high power rifle. Most rooms are not more than 20 feet unless you live in a auditorium.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

I use 4 & 5 turkey load for home defense. We call 7 and 8 birdshot around here too.


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## stranger (Feb 24, 2008)

I figure that one shot with #4 three inch turkey shot will make 2 people out of one and 2 shots at the same person with the same load will make a crowd out of him.

just getting hit with the wad will scare the $hL# out of most people and a few pellets in a person will usually stop them if they're still rational, if they're doped up, use 00 buck or a slug.


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## Beeman (Dec 29, 2002)

If it made you feel better in a pump use #6 in the first 2 or so and then your 00. I'd say the sound of pumping a shotgun will be effective for most.
My #6 is labeled rabbit and squirrel.


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## stranger (Feb 24, 2008)

Iddee said:


> Practically all your fatal accidents with shotguns are with #4 or #6 shot. unless it happens while deer hunting.
> 
> I personally know of 3 or 4 who were killed by that size shot.
> BTW, birdshot is #71/2 or #8 here.* I have never heard of 4 or 6 being called birdshot.*



around here, #4 and #6 are used for geese and turkeys which are birds. actually anything less than 00,#1 #2 buck is called bird shot here.


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

If I saw someone with a shotgun and they fired it into the air, I wouldn't know or care if it was birdshot; hearing it would be enough to scare me away.


.


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## Cotton Picker (Oct 10, 2008)

mldollins said:


> for self-defense in a shotgun? I know they recommend 00 or 0. But it would seem that any shot would do some severe damage and 6 or 8 shot could potentially leave a very nasty wound.
> 
> thanks


I would recommend #8 bird shot for indoor home defense.... Preferably chambered in a 12gauge, 870 Remington pump..... 

*Firstly*... Chambering a round into a 12 gauge pump is a universal language for..... Get the heck out of Dodge....

*Secondly*... #8 will mess up someone pretty badly at close range... Especially if it is fired at the throat....

*Thirdly*... Less chance of stray pellets puncturing a wall and killing, or wounding your kid who is asleep in the next room..... 

*Fourthly*... Stock 870's carry three rounds.... You could load two #8 and one #00 or slug... Stun or drop them with the first two and still have a backup coup de grÃ¢ce if necessary.....

*Fifthly*.... One could accessorize an 870....



> Remington recently introduced a new take on an old shotgun, the venerable Remington 870 pump-action shotgun. The new incarnation is called the 870 MCS, which stands for "Modular Shotgun System". The key word in that phrase is "modular". The Remington 870 MCS pump-action shotgun can be configured for an operator's specific mission requirements. Military and law enforcement operators have relied on the Remington 870 for a long time, now, because it's reliable and tough as nails. The 870 is still in use in hotspots around the world in both urban warfare and jungle warfare environments.
> 
> 
> The Modular Combat Shotgun (MCS) weapons package simply updates the Remington 870 shotgun with features and configurations that today's military Special Operations (SPECOPS) personnel and law enforcement (LE) SWAT/SRT operators now look for in their tactical long guns for a variety of operational uses. First, the MCS features an M1913 top rail for attaching optical sights like the EOTech 551/552 Holographic Weapons Sight (HWS)/HOLOgraphic Diffraction Sight (HDS) and Aimpoint CompM2/ML2 Red Dot sight, for CQB (Close Quarters Battle) applications. And, second, it can be mission-specific configured. The Remington 870 MCS can be configured as a...<Snip>
> ...


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

.So what it basically boils down to is if your shootin in your home and don't want to take a chance of hittin your own family member on the other side of the wall, then you should have your shotgun loaded with approximately #6's. If your gonna be shootin at someone outside or in any direction that you don't have a family member in line of your shot, then load the shotgun up with #2's or 1/0 buckshot. 

Seems there was a article all about this in a magazine somewhere that I remember reading just a few months ago.


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

There are all sorts of Tests on penetration with different Shotgun loads at the Box O'Truth.Lots of reading on pistol rounds too. Even one on the Taurus 45Colt/.410 ga.
It's good reading if you have the time.
You can find it at..............

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

They recommend using Buck shot instead of game loads or birdshot.
I live out in the country, rural location.
I'll stick with Buckshot, out here.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

FYI
A Remington 870, stock, with out mag extensions, holds 5 rounds, 4 in the mag (tube), 1 in the chamber, WITH out duck plug.

Both of mine came with the duck plug, in the mag from the factory.
"Duck plug" limits the mag to hold only 2 rounds, + one in the chamber for a total of 3 rounds.
Waterfowl reg limit of 3 rounds.

With a mag extension you can add up to 10 total depending on barrel length.
A two round extension works with an 18-1/2" barrel, bringing the total to 7 rounds.

Now if you are one that likes to hear the sound of the "pump jack" prior to engaging, all the above number are reduced by one round.


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## BuckBall (Dec 26, 2005)

I have an old black powder shotgun in 12 ga. Now I've held off trespassers with this shotgun loaded birdshot while hunting a few times and though this particular weapon isn't a defense weapon of sorts, I always felt at ease with this type of shot. I certainly would dread being on the receiving end of any 12 ga loaded with whatever shot possible...rocksalt included.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

FYI;
http://shop.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=377126


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## BuckBall (Dec 26, 2005)

hunter63 said:


> FYI;
> http://shop.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=377126


Used something similar to that in Sierra Leone on patrols...devastating round.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Thought of them when I saw your screen name BuckBall.


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## BuckBall (Dec 26, 2005)

hunter63 said:


> Thought of them when I saw your screen name BuckBall.


LOL That is where I got my nickname from. I was point man when I had the chance, thus always carried a shotgun when I could and loaded up with buck and ball...hence my nickname came to be  The British military was a bit more flexible when it came to shotgun ammunition than the Americans who only could carry buckshot. Have no idea if the Americans can choose their rounds yet.


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## Wis Bang (Feb 20, 2009)

While the sound of a pump being chambered is unique, reasonable home defense would be to have one up the spout ready to go LONG b/4 U need it. Even if you are storing it MT, it should be locked & loaded b/4 you need it.

Dad carried a Browing auto-5. With the bolt locked back, pushing a round into the mag caused the bolt to shove it home w/ a sound as menacing as a pump 'cept it was ready to go immediately. And it could deliver all 5 as fast as you could pull the trigger...no wasted motion working the slide...

I still prefer my 38. all lead wad cutters = no mercy. If you need to use the gun you don't need ANY compassion...


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## Wis Bang (Feb 20, 2009)

BuckBall said:


> LOL That is where I got my nickname from. I was point man when I had the chance, thus always carried a shotgun when I could and loaded up with buck and ball...hence my nickname came to be  The British military was a bit more flexible when it came to shotgun ammunition than the Americans who only could carry buckshot. Have no idea if the Americans can choose their rounds yet.


Check out the 'shooters forum' sponsored by Beartooth Bullets. There is a guy from Fla. on there [James Gates] who markets 'buck 'N ball' as well as a 'Tri-ball' shotshell rounds. Has some interesting reports on there.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

I load #1 Buck in the magazine of my Benelli M1S90 and Hornady TAP in my shell holder. My longest shot in my house is a little over 35â so I use something that will be effective at the greatest distance in which I may have to take a shot. My chosen gun/load will keep all of its pellets on a silhouette target out to 21 meters reliably. The following provides some good information

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Hereâs a decent article on shotgun wound ballistics from the Western Journal of Medicine of special note is page 155 which deals with mortality rates based on distance: 

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1238294&pageindex=3#page

In two tactical shotgun classes I've taken, the birdshot question arose and was not recommended. This is due to the lack of penetration. The FBI penetration tests call for 12â with handgun ammo, this takes into account outer clothing and shots at âbad anglesâ IE through limbs etc. The reason for the desired 12" is because the only reliable way to stop a human attacker instantly is by hitting 3 locations, brain, brain-stem, or central nervous system above the waist. Anything else and they can still pull a trigger until they bleed out. #1 buck has 16 .30" pellets that will make 12 inches of penetration.

Everybody worries about over-penetration of his or her weapon, but the potential is for two (or more) people with guns. I know the fields of fire within my house, IE whose bedroom is where, the other guy doesnât care. I want to use the best tool to neutralize a threat as quickly as possible.

There's no free lunch here, anything that will reliably stop an attacker is going to penetrate. 

Chuck


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Some place a while back I remember the argument of the 71/2-8 as not good thru any amount of clothing--jackets etc.
My thought is a winter time "problem" when bad guy has winter clothing on.........

Comments...........


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Jim-mi said:


> Some place a while back I remember the argument of the 71/2-8 as not good thru any amount of clothing--jackets etc.
> My thought is a winter time "problem" when bad guy has winter clothing on.........
> 
> Comments...........


I've heard the same thing.

But, there is also all sorts of "soft" and "hard" cover in the average house.

Sometimes the ability to shoot through cover can be a "good thing". 

Chuck


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## tamsam (May 12, 2006)

44 mag here. Leave the shot guns in the rack as if someone is in your house you might be in close quarters with them. Sam


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

If you are in the house I don't care if you have double whatever or birdshot whatever you are going to kill what you point at. Unless you live in some kind of McMansion and the smallest room is 100 feet long. All firearms have a purpose and having the right firearm with the right bullet/shot and a profiency with that firearm is the most important thing next to the will to take a persons life.

God hope that none of us are ever in the position.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Kevingr said:


> If you are in the house I don't care if you have double whatever or birdshot whatever you are going to kill what you point at. Unless you live in some kind of McMansion and the smallest room is 100 feet long. All firearms have a purpose and having the right firearm with the right bullet/shot and a profiency with that firearm is the most important thing next to the will to take a persons life.
> 
> God hope that none of us are ever in the position.


You are quite right. It only takes a air gun or BB gun to take a life if you are good enough. I always carry a 9mm with me and am fully capable of using it to defend myself. I have before so one more won't make any difference. Being able to and having the will to do it are two things. You need to make a decision when to use it and have the willpower to do it when you cross that line. Most gun battles are from less than 10 feet in any home. More times than not it will be 5 feet or less even in a large office building. I have been in the a gun battle that the mussel of the other party was past me and it only took a half a second to fire. It was his life or mine. The cop in the room with me saw the whole thing and didn't even have time to react to the problem. It took the police investigator about 3 minuets to decide it was a good shooting.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

Keep in mind the macho sound of a round moving into the chamber of a pump shotgun also alerts the enemy to your location and gives them ample time to fire the first round (you lose). All of my firearms are loaded and ready to go, safety on. No children in the house, wife knows how to load,fire,clear jams from all weapons .


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

The only problem I would have with shooting someone who broke into my house would be finding a place to aim at thats not covered by dog.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Kevingr said:


> If you are in the house I don't care if you have double whatever or birdshot whatever you are going to kill what you point at.


Not necessarily true, or at least according to one study about 80% false. 

IAW the Western Journal of Medicine article on shotgun wound ballistics the following fatality rates apply for birdshot:

Type I Wound Greater than 7 yards (21 feet+) 0-5% Mortality Rate.

Type II Wound 3-7 Yards (9-21 feet) 5-10% Mortality Rate.

Type III Wound Contact-3 yards (0-9 feet) 15-20 % Mortality Rate.

Note, no types of shotgun wounds even approached a 50% fatality rate when using birdshot. 80-95% of shotgun fatalities (again bird shot) were Type III wounds and hemorrhaging (bleeding out) was the cause of death. The average time for death was 2.3 hours. 

Keep in mind, this was written back in 1978, so with some improvements in trauma care the mortality rates have probably decreased some. 

Chuck


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Chuck R. said:


> Not necessarily true, or at least according to one study about 80% false.
> 
> IAW the Western Journal of Medicine article on shotgun wound ballistics the following fatality rates apply for birdshot:
> 
> ...


Did they use low brass or high brass? Did it even take onto accidental shooting or only self defense? Most studies are made with an agenda. Who did the study and what was their agenda.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Old Vet said:


> Did they use low brass or high brass? Did it even take onto accidental shooting or only self defense? Most studies are made with an agenda. Who did the study and what was their agenda.


The study, which I posted on the first page was done by medical trauma surgeons. I guess they don't care about accident VS SD because they're dealing with the actual effects. One of the Dr's was at one time a researcher for the Navy and studied wound ballistics. 

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1238294&pageindex=4#page

I guess their "agenda" would be they were studying how to treat shotgun wounds effectively. Again, SD VS accident, the "why" doesn't really matter at this point. 

Page 152 states: Unlike pistol and rifle cartridges the âmagnum" shotgun shell does not necessarily produce higher velocitiesâ¦â¦.........therefor very little is actually gained in missile velocity or energy at various ranges by using magnum shells. 

So yes, they did look at high brass VS low brass. 

The big take aways are the relative low percentage of fatalities when people are shot with birdshot. Which runs a little counter to:



Kevingr said:


> If you are in the house I don't care if you have double whatever or birdshot whatever you are going to kill what you point at.


There's really about 5 or 6 relevant pages, why not take a few minutes and read it? 

Or if you don't agree, you can always do some research to support a differing opinion. 

Chuck


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

My Remington 870 is shown below. 18" barrel, 7 round capacity. All that it's missing..IMHO...is an attached SureFire flashlight. I could not make up my mind what to load it with. We potentially have two-legged intruders (meth heads and the like) and four-legged intruders (bear) . Because I could not make up my mind, I alternate 00 and 0000 rounds. 00 buckshot is slightly larger than .30 caliber, a round has 9 pellets. The 0000 buckshot is .24 calber and a round has 27 pellets.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Under no circumstances whatsoever do I want to let someone who wishes me harm, to get close enough for me to "silence" them, with birdshot. Buckshot will take down a deer at 50yds (back when we had to hunt with shotguns, I took my fair share each season, with double ought buckshot)... if it'll go through a deer, I'd think it'd go through a human. Shooting birdshot, 6 or 8 shot (call it what you will, it's called birdshot because that's all it's good for, oh, and for squirrels) at 50 yds, you might get lucky and have a bb get stuck in an eye, and make someone cry a bit.

If you want something to kill zombies, get something that will kill zombies way out there, up close, and in between. Waiting to see the dead black of their eyes up close and personal is just plain suicidal. Get buckshot not birdshot.

Imagine a duel... We pace off 100' turn around and shoot... you have your choice of 12 gauge cartridges... do you want tiny little bb's or buckshot?

Yes, 'birdshot' will kill. And Inuits (they don't like to be called Eskimo's) kill Polar bears with .22lr bullets. [find a swimming polar bear, motor their boat up next to it, press barrel next to bears head, and pull trigger]

I have no desire to wound any intruder... LE officials have told me, off the record of course, that one story trumps two stories... Dead Zombies tell no tales.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

I have no worries about a load of #6's stopping anyone who is withing 'room distance' (10' or less).

I've posted the numbers before but I don't have them handy. If you check you will find getting shot with a full load of #6's at close range is like getting hit bowling ball moving at 60 miles per hour.


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## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

Another consideration is what state you live in and how the subject of self defense is viewed by law enforcement agencies and your local District Attorney/Judges.

A "RED" state may allow you to use buckshot, slugs, buck & ball and give you a medal for taking another scumbag out of the gene pool.

A "BLUE" state may (and especially "metro" areas, read that, Liberal Bleeding-heart Socialist Democrat metro areas) look at your ammo choice as revealing your intent to kill the "poor, under-privileged, victim of society" rather than just shooing him away like a stray dog raiding your garbage cans. The birdshot can be justified by saying, "That was what I had at hand, Officer Smith, from my recent visit to the trap range, game farm, (insert "legitimate sporting use" here). I feared for my life and grabbed what I could to defend myself from this cold-blooded killer."

I guess the bottom line is to make a choice that will both work and that you can defend to the cops and a judge. *There are a lot of FELONS that didn't. * Good luck on making a wise choice that you can both live with and live free with.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

watcher said:


> I have no worries about a load of #6's stopping anyone who is withing 'room distance' (10' or less).
> 
> I've posted the numbers before but I don't have them handy. If you check you will find getting shot with a full load of #6's at close range is like getting hit bowling ball moving at 60 miles per hour.


If that were true, then firing a load of 6 shot would also be like getting hit with a bowling ball at 60 MPH.

It's physics (equal and opposite reaction) and it doesn't quite work that way, "knock down power" is a myth. 

IAW the FBI laboratory:



> A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been known for hundreds of years. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball. Tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within the desired time frame, i.e., instantaneously. (2)


http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...sive-The-truth-about-handgun-knockdown-power/


Chuck


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

diamondtim said:


> Another consideration is what state you live in and how the subject of self defense is viewed by law enforcement agencies and your local District Attorney/Judges.
> 
> A "RED" state may allow you to use buckshot, slugs, buck & ball and give you a medal for taking another scumbag out of the gene pool.
> 
> ...


You have a point, but I don't know if choosing defensive ammo by what may be politically correct is the prudent way to go based on what may happen in court.

IF that was a concern, a simple solution would be to use the same weapon and ammo as is used by your local law enforcement.

IF the "why did you use lethal ammo?" question arises, just have your lawyer subpoena a local law enforcement officer and ask him "why they want to kill people?"

The same argument could possibly be used for what type of gun was used. Below is a picture of my HD gun a Benelli M1S90 "Tactical" with an Insight M3X weapon light attached as it sits in a V-Line vault under my bed. 

Pretty sinister looking, and also used by a whole bunch of police departments across the country. 










Chuck


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

This has all been covered in the Great Outdoors section. We can debate it to death. At home defense range (less then 20 ft) the size of the shot in the load really does not matter. It is still held together with the cup of the wad. A 1 1/8 oz. load traveling at 1300 ft/sec has monster kinetic energy. Thats physics too. Take two half inch pieces of plywood stacked together. Back up 10 ft. and blast it with a light trap load. Then look at the size of the hole you made.


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## Cotton Picker (Oct 10, 2008)

Hi Mildollins....

You might find this info helpful....



> Tactical Briefs #10, October 1998
> 
> *Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition*
> 
> ...


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

JJ Grandits said:


> This has all been covered in the Great Outdoors section. We can debate it to death. At home defense range (less then 20 ft) the size of the shot in the load really does not matter. It is still held together with the cup of the wad. A 1 1/8 oz. load traveling at 1300 ft/sec has monster kinetic energy. Thats physics too. Take two half inch pieces of plywood stacked together. Back up 10 ft. and blast it with a light trap load. Then look at the size of the hole you made.


Then there really shouldn't be any problem finding some ballistic testing, wound trauma data, or articles to support this, should it?

Something maybe a little more technical than a 2 half-inch plywood test maybe?

Here's a few that suggest birdshot is not the way to go:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm



> Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. *Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. *If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.
> 
> Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. *Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.*


http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#SHOTGUN AMMUNITION



> The single biggest mistake people make is to assume that the power of the shotgun is such that it negates having to select proper ammo. *Through no experience or research they might come to the conclusion that birdshot is a perfectly acceptable choice for self defense? Why? Because the "feel" it's adequate for the most part.*
> 
> Nothing is further from the truth. *Once again, the shotgun ammunition needs to perform the same function as rifle and pistol ammo, which is to penetrate about 12" into ballistic gelatin.* Fragmentation/expansion are usually not an issue in shotgun ammo, so that factor can be ignored for the most part.


http://carteach0.blogspot.com/2009/02/home-defense-shotgun-ammunition-basics.html



> Buck shot or bird shotâ¦ and here there really is no choice. Bird shot is just that; small shot made for taking small game birds on the wing. *Bird shot will not penetrate well enough to reliably stop an attacking opponent*. Sure, it can leave a nasty surface wound and may eventually drop the bad guy from blood loss, but thatâs not the goal. *Shots fired are meant to stop the bad guy from attacking, and that means stop, not hurt.*



Chuck


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

JJ Grandits said:


> This has all been covered in the Great Outdoors section. We can debate it to death. At home defense range (less then 20 ft) the size of the shot in the load really does not matter. It is still held together with the cup of the wad. A 1 1/8 oz. load traveling at 1300 ft/sec has monster kinetic energy. Thats physics too. Take two half inch pieces of plywood stacked together. Back up 10 ft. and blast it with a light trap load. Then look at the size of the hole you made.


Be careful of bounce back!!!!!
I don't know if you tried this or not, but I won't be shooting the .410 derringer, close range, at plywood any more.
My glasses are saftey glasses, could have been a possible Darwin award.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

hunter63 said:


> Be careful of bounce back!!!!!
> I don't know if you tried this or not, but I won't be shooting the .410 derringer, close range, at plywood any more.
> My glasses are saftey glasses, could have been a possible Darwin award.


I had a new 10 ga once and got some steel F shot. I shot at a lava outcropping 100 yards away and smiled when rock chips flew. Then I frowned when pellets came screaming back all around me. 

If all I had was 6 shot, and someone needed shooting, I would shoot. I once was hunting squirrels and got close to a deer and completely opened the brain cavity with a load of high brass 5 shot. Range was maybe 12 feet.


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## Va. goatman (May 12, 2006)

I was a cop for 9yrs trust me #6 shot will do the job at room distance


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Last one, I promise:


http://www.shadonet.com/2008/01/cho...t-buckshot-or-slugs-for-shotgun-home-defense/



> Conclusion:
> Bird shot is for birds, not people people!
> 
> *Even the #4 heavy bird shot load at 3 yards did not penetrate sufficiently to reliably stop an attacker, remember the FBI defines minimum acceptable penetration as 12 inches with 18 inches preferred. *
> ...



Range: 3 yards
Shotgun: 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnum
Round: 12 gauge Remington Heavy Dove 1-1/8 oz #4 Birdshot
Gelatin: 9&#8242;x9&#8242;x19&#8242; 10% ordinance gelatin block
Measured Average Permanent Cavity: 6.5 inches (16.5 cm)
Temporary Stretch Cavity: 0.0 to 6.0 inches (0.0 to 15.2 cm)











Range: 3 yards
Shotgun: 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnumn
Round: 12 gauge 2? Federal Classic 00 Buckshot (9 pellets)
Gelatin: 9&#8242;x9&#8242;x19&#8242; 10% ordinance gelatin block
Measured Average Permanent Cavity Penetration: 22.3 inches (56.6cm) (3.4X further than #4 birdshot)










Chuck


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Bird shot is USELESS for self defense.
> The fact that lots of people "use" it doesnt mean it's a good idea.
> STUDIES show smaller shot will NOT penetrate enough even at inside


It doesn't need to be fatal to be effective. I think the term "useless" is a little bit strong. Bird shot or not, a 12 gauge blast in the general direction of an intruder will certainly make an impression. After a few shots I suspect that you'll find that your intruder has gone looking for a softer target.


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## VOR. (Feb 3, 2009)

If the attacker is unarmed, 6 shot would probably be sufficient. The key words in that sentence are unarmed and probably. I wouldn't leave my safety up to chance and would go with a bigger shot size.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Nevada said:


> *It doesn't need to be fatal to be effective*. I think the term "useless" is a little bit strong. Bird shot or not, a 12 gauge blast *in the general direction *of an intruder will certainly make an impression. After a few shots I suspect that you'll find that your intruder has gone looking for a softer target.


Youre correct about that, since DEFENSE is NOT about killing, but about STOPPING.

A shot "in the general direction" is more properly called a "miss". It has NO EFFECT at all.

This has been a long thread with lots of OPINIONS and HEARSAY.

ALL the *EMPIRICAL* evidence presented has shown "bird shot" is NOT a good defensive load.

But it's YOUR life, so load whatever you want. 

Dont let scientific studies stand in the way of Joe Blow and what "his friend ,the Cop, told him he saw".

Half seem to think noisily working the action is all you need to do anyway, so why load the gun at all? 

Like I said, it's YOUR life, not mine.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> A shot "in the general direction" is more properly called a "miss". It has NO EFFECT at all.


My guess is that a good percentage of intruders will take off running in the opposite direction after hearing a 12 gauge blast, and not stop untill they're in the next county. That would certainly accomplish the desired effect.

Again, bird shot or not, with a 12 gauge shotgun and not afraid to use it you're better armed than most. No intruder would consider a home with a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with bird shot a soft target.


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## mldollins (Jun 21, 2008)

How can one justify shooting someone at a distance of 20 yards or more. When they are retreating, the law is NOT on your side. Shooting at someone at long distances could open up some major legal battles. However, thanks for all your replies, they have been helpful......

continue on, I am enjoying everyones posts here......


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## VOR. (Feb 3, 2009)

^^^That might be the case in your state, but in TX we have much more leeway to defend our property. You can shoot a fleeing burglar in the back if you think it is necessary to recover your property.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

mldollins said:


> How can one justify shooting someone at a distance of 20 yards or more. When they are retreating, the law is NOT on your side. Shooting at someone at long distances could open up some major legal battles. However, thanks for all your replies, they have been helpful......
> 
> continue on, I am enjoying everyones posts here......


20 yards is too close... I'd much prefer tapping someone at 200 yds... at 20 yds, 
they've got a good chance of hurting me, and I don't like that...

in the great State of Texas, we have a Castle Law... we don't have to wait for some pc point before we can shoot... if we feel our lives are threatened, deadly force is justified... Most criminals know all about this law.

Major legal battles would more likely ensue using wuss force (birdshot, which would only wound an intruder)... as the intruder could then sue the intrudee, and in a girlie man state, they might even put the homeowner in jail. If the intruder is a deceasedee, there'll only be one story for the authorities. 

Also, remember, very few wounds (unless you double tap head shots) kill immediately. They might die, but it might take a few minutes for them to bleed out...... and in the meantime, if they're armed, they may return the favor. A grizzly bear can be dying, but still kill you, before it's dead...

My point of view is this... if someone violates my castle, and it's a choice between them or me, then they'll have to be "IT". And my story will be the only story told. When you're life is on the line, are you going to skimp? I've put my myself in some wild and hairy wilderness situations... I didn't take gear that would just barely work... I took the absolutely best gear on the planet... If I had taken the cheap way out, I probably wouldn't be typing right now... instead I'd be fertilizing some patch of tundra... making an occasional caribou happy with some lusher foliage...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Nevada said:


> *My guess *is that a good percentage of intruders will take off running in the opposite direction after hearing a 12 gauge blast, and not stop untill they're in the next county. That would certainly accomplish the desired effect.
> 
> Again, bird shot or not, with a 12 gauge shotgun and not afraid to use it you're better armed than most. *No intruder would consider a home with a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with bird shot a soft target*.


LOL And how will he KNOW what's in YOUR gun?

When logic fails, just babble aimlessy


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## Cotton Picker (Oct 10, 2008)

Nevada said:


> My guess is that a good percentage of intruders will take off running in the opposite direction after hearing a 12 gauge blast, and not stop untill they're in the next county. That would certainly accomplish the desired effect.
> 
> Again, bird shot or not, with a 12 gauge shotgun and not afraid to use it you're better armed than most. No intruder would consider a home with a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with bird shot a soft target.


Nevada...I most heartily concur.... :cowboy:

No offense.. But IMHO... If this thread is pumped full of any more testosterone... It's gonna sprout whiskers.....

I don't mean to challenge the masculinity of any of the posters here.... But let's forward a few alternate notions... How many here have killed another human being in war or self defense?....How many have been in an actual life or death firefight?... OK.... How many have looked down the barrel of a loaded weapon in the grasp of a hostile adversary?..... How many have had a home invasion?... While you were asleep in your bed?.....

Chances are good that not too many here have experienced any of the above... An hopefully never will...

My belief is that most would verbalize their presence to an intruder prior to busting a cap in their butt. If verbalization didn't work they would then escalate to firepower..... I tend to agree with Nevada.... Unless you are dealing with a Methed up (And I'm not lisping here ) desperado.... you will probably scare the living excrement out of them just by making your presence known.... IMHO.... They would probably wet themselves if you then jacked a round into a 12 gauge......

Any road..... The most dangerous aspect of a shotgun... IMHO... Is that it is in the hands of someone who knows how to use it and has the will to pull the trigger.... With Ice water in their veins.... Not butterflies in their stomach.....

Maybe it might just be safer and more advisable to save up some coins and invest in a first response of a different variety.... Rather than arguing the relative merits and maiming/killing power of a tool that could just fall into the wrong hands in a tight.....

http://www.internationalk9imports.com/dogsforsale/dogsforsale.html

Ne vous fÃ¢chez pas, s'il vous plait... Just my $.02


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

If your worried about "evil ammo" and what someone might say about it, find out what the police are using and use the same thing. That way the :"killer" ammo argument cant be brought up.


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## NorthCountryWd (Oct 17, 2008)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> Keep in mind the macho sound of a round moving into the chamber of a pump shotgun also alerts the enemy to your location and gives them ample time to fire the first round (you lose).


x2. If you've got intruders in the house, there's no need to warn anybody. 

Testosterone or not, you have a choice to make in a split second, defend your home or don't. Regardless the "masculinity", I don't think anybody wants to go thru horror the taking of another human life, the impact such an event would have on you, your home and your family or the possible outcomes rehashed thereafter.

The sound of a pump or warning shot is not a smart defense without knowing what's going thru the head of the intruder. The intentions of a person bold enough to enter an occupied home cannot be logically anticipated. There could be any number of mitigating factors controlling a perpetrators mind (drugs, mental instability, desperation, etc) and all could be completely irrational. Thinking YOUR logic can be applied to an intruders mind is a recipe for disaster. 

The only parts of the scenario you have control over are your own actions. A person that chooses to bring out a firearm for self defense should be ready to use lethal force and be prepared for the consequences. Hesitation and indecision will only exacerbate the intrusion and endanger you and your family more. If the latter is the case, keep the guns locked in a safe and come up with another plan (safe room, 911, dog, etc). 

:soap:


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## jross (Sep 3, 2006)

If you shoot em, you'd better make sure you kill em, or you may find yourself being charged with endangering a criminal and being sued ala Bernie Geitz.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Cotton Picker said:


> Nevada...I most heartily concur.... :cowboy:
> 
> No offense.. But IMHO... If this thread is pumped full of any more testosterone... It's gonna sprout whiskers.....
> 
> ...


Well despite your posturing, people use firearms very frequently to defend themselves without the benefit of:

Having killed another human being in war or self defense.
Having been in an actual life or death firefight.
Having looked down the barrel of a loaded weapon in the grasp of a hostile adversary.
Having had a home invasion.

I guess there's just a first time for everything. 

Lets say for the sake of discussion the OP has the fortitude to use his shotgun despite lacking the above experience or any formal training. Lets say the verbal warning didn't work, racking the slide didn't work, no one defecated and ran from his house. 

It has come down to him or a determined opponent.

Do you feel #6 shot is adequate, and why? 

Cause that's what the question is. 

The "it doesn't matter" because you'll never use it argumant is really pretty weak. Why not just take it a step further and not keep a gun at all?

Chuck


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Chuck R. said:


> If that were true, then firing a load of 6 shot would also be like getting hit with a bowling ball at 60 MPH.
> 
> It's physics (equal and opposite reaction) and it doesn't quite work that way, "knock down power" is a myth.
> 
> ...



You can't "knock a man down" with a baseball bat either but hitting him in the chest will stop him.

Know anyone who has been shot while wearing a soft bullet "proof"


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

watcher said:


> You can't "knock a man down" with a baseball bat either but hitting him in the chest will stop him.
> 
> Know anyone who has been shot while wearing a soft bullet "proof"


www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Page 8, US DEPT of Justice, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness.

The often referred to âknockdown powerâ implies the ability of a bullet to move its target. This is nothing more than momentum of the bullet. It is the transfer of momentum that will cause a target to move in response to the blow received. â¦â¦â¦ â¦â¦.A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics and has been known for hundreds of years. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.

This article really is a good read and well worth the time.

Hereâs another:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Yk...X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA174,M1

Check out page 174

Depending on your stance, balance, movement etc you can be âknocked downâ by being hit by a baseball too. 

Chuck


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## unioncreek (Jun 18, 2002)

The recommendation from self defense people and law enforcement is to use #8 shot. The reason being it is less likely to penetrate a wall into the next room an injure another family member.

Bob


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## farmerjon (Jan 7, 2009)

you did say home defense right. So you are talkiing about very close shooting. I use turkey loads also. I have a 20 ga with a 18 inch barrel. My grandpa always told me aim for the legs. you probally wont kill em and hes not going to ever go into anyone eles place ever agian. Makes the police job ezier too. Word has it a lot of guys in my area have people tring to take livestock at night so I keep the .204 ruger handy for blasing windows out. Pray to God i would never have to do it, but with times getting tight its time to watch your neighbors.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

farmerjon said:


> you did say home defense right. So you are talkiing about very close shooting. I use turkey loads also. I have a 20 ga with a 18 inch barrel. My grandpa always told me aim for the legs. you probally wont kill em and hes not going to ever go into anyone eles place ever agian. Makes the police job ezier too.


Now here is a statement I can argue against. You shoot his legs out, you buy his crutches for the rest of his life. Plus, the attorney gets you on the stand when the cripple sues you. He asks why you shot his legs. To wound him. Oh, so you didn't want to kill him, just put him in indescribable pain for the rest of his life? 

When you shoot someone, you shoot to kill, or else you didn't need to shoot. Then when the police finally arrive, when they ask, you say you wanted to stop the threat. Don't say you wanted to kill him or wound him. Just you wanted to stop him. Anything else and they make you out as bloodthirsty.

And always use factory loads. They will also tear you apart as a maniac if you reload for home defense, sitting in his basement, brewing up special man killer loads. I reload everything I shoot, except all my self defense weapons have an expensive box of factory ammo.


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## Cotton Picker (Oct 10, 2008)

jross said:


> If you shoot em, you'd better make sure you kill em, or you may find yourself being charged with endangering a criminal and being sued ala Bernie Geitz.


Yeah Jross.... 

But I tend to look at it this way.... In the aftermath of a dead or alive intruder.....



> *"I'd rather be tried by twelve".... "Than carried by six".....*


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## Cotton Picker (Oct 10, 2008)

Chuck R. said:


> Well despite your posturing, people use firearms very frequently to defend themselves without the benefit of:
> 
> Having killed another human being in war or self defense.
> Having been in an actual life or death firefight.
> ...


Excuse me Chuck......If I indulge myself jus a skosh while responding to your opening statement......

*Well Duhhh!......*



> There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually. However these surveys each had their flaws which prompted Dr. Kleck to conduct his own study specifically tailored to estimate the number of DGU's annually.
> 
> http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html


I hope that ya'll got a chance ta see my good side while I was posturing, whilst delivering the...... Well Duhhh!...... Response to your opening statement....




Chuck R. said:


> Lets say for the sake of discussion the OP has the fortitude to use his shotgun despite lacking the above experience or any formal training. Lets say the verbal warning didn't work, racking the slide didn't work, no one defecated and ran from his house.
> 
> It has come down to him or a determined opponent.
> 
> ...


I do believe that I have already offered my views in regards to the question of the usage of #6 shot for home defense......



Cotton Picker said:


> mldollins said:
> 
> 
> > for self-defense in a shotgun? I know they recommend 00 or 0. But it would seem that any shot would do some severe damage and 6 or 8 shot could potentially leave a very nasty wound.
> ...





> Cotton Picker said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Mildollins....
> ...





Chuck R. said:


> The "it doesn't matter" because you'll never use it argumant is really pretty weak. Why not just take it a step further and not keep a gun at all?
> 
> Chuck


Chuck.... Old boy...... Sounds to me like you have a chip on your shoulder the size of Texas..... IMHO.... Having an itchy trigger finger is a matter of personal choice... I was merely attempting to put forth a few alternate ideas as a form of food for thought.....

Speaking of food for thought... Perhaps your first line of home defense should be to crank up the volume...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO43p2Wqc08&feature=PlayList&p=EE5D089F47162132&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3[/ame]


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## rickd203 (Sep 11, 2005)

My view is that although #6 shot MIGHT be effective, I know that buckshot or slugs WILL get the job done. When my life is at risk I don't want something that MIGHT save my life.

:cowboy:


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Cotton Picker,

Iâve got to admit, your last post left me speechless for a minute, thereâs not even a large enough shred of logic for me to attempt to pick apart.

Again, what does your post # 62 have do with choosing #6 shot for SD?

What actual research have you dug up to support your argument?

If youâre going to post Tactical Briefs #10, October 1998 again, at least post the main theme of the article which is not to choose birdshot. 

What does choosing a REM 870 have to do with choosing #6 shot?

You are the one that brought the âprerequisitesâ into play with your post number 62. Now youâre saying: Well Duhhh! So which is it? Important like post #62 or now it doesnât matter? 

No chip here, just trying to inject a few facts and some research to support my opinions. 

Chuck


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

#6 is the only thing needed....

This is for home defense, If they are farther than 20 feet they aren't a threat to your life. If the are doing anything but coming at you and attacking you, they aren't being a threat to your life. 

You will spend lots of jail time if you aren't truly threatened.


Before you say it... If they are outside your home with a long gun firing at your house from a distance..... Leave the lights off and get the deer rifle.:cowboy:


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

A load of #6 beats the heck out of an empty shotgun. If that is what you have, use it, if you can , use bigger shot. As a kid, I once shot a cottontail with a 20ga and 7 1/2 shot, about 20 feet away, couldn't find much of it but a few tufts of fur and some blood. Up close and personal, the shot won't have time to spread out to a pattern, and will basically be one big chunk of lead.


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## farmerjon (Jan 7, 2009)

Ed Norman said:


> Now here is a statement I can argue against. You shoot his legs out, you buy his crutches for the rest of his life. Plus, the attorney gets you on the stand when the cripple sues you. He asks why you shot his legs. To wound him. Oh, so you didn't want to kill him, just put him in indescribable pain for the rest of his life?
> 
> When you shoot someone, you shoot to kill, or else you didn't need to shoot. Then when the police finally arrive, when they ask, you say you wanted to stop the threat. Don't say you wanted to kill him or wound him. Just you wanted to stop him. Anything else and they make you out as bloodthirsty.
> 
> And always use factory loads. They will also tear you apart as a maniac if you reload for home defense, sitting in his basement, brewing up special man killer loads. I reload everything I shoot, except all my self defense weapons have an expensive box of factory ammo.


ED,
to be forward if you are living in a world where you think you can take another mans life and not have repercusions you should look around. I hope to never have to use force, but I do have a college degree in CJ and I could show you many cases where unless that man has shot at or shot you and you shoot that man dead there is no threat in the eyes of the law and you are not justifded to take that life. You can never take a life over property and if you shoot an unarmed man you might as well have shot him in the street. Im not saying wounding is the answer, but he can still see the sunrise.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

farmerjon said:


> ED,
> to be forward if you are living in a world where you think you can take another mans life and not have repercusions you should look around. I hope to never have to use force, but I do have a college degree in CJ and I could show you many cases where unless that man has shot at or shot you and you shoot that man dead there is no threat in the eyes of the law and you are not justifded to take that life. You can never take a life over property and if you shoot an unarmed man you might as well have shot him in the street. Im not saying wounding is the answer, but he can still see the sunrise.


Know your state's law but in most cases if you feel in danger of grievous bodily harm or death you have the right to use deadly force. Some New England states did (still do) have "must retreat" laws where you must be cornered with no chance to run away before you can use any force at all.


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## Cotton Picker (Oct 10, 2008)

Chuck R. said:


> You are the one that brought the &#8220;prerequisites&#8221; into play with your post number 62. Now you&#8217;re saying: Well Duhhh! So which is it? Important like post #62 or now it doesn&#8217;t matter?


Prerequisites... Eh?

I cannot help but be amused by the allegation that I am establishing the rules of engagement for another as it pertains to personal defense against threats to their life, limb, property and/or loved ones....

It is still a relatively free country.... One can still purchase, up to and including, a .50 cal rifle and ammo.... And each one still possess an individual free moral agency....

You have every right to express your opinions in regards to the potential rules of engagement.... As do I... And then leave up it to the reader to express and/or practice, their own :cowboy:

I neither know, nor do I care to learn, of your background... It's just that IMHO... Trigger-happy rhetoric as it pertains to the proper shot size for the expressed purpose of the taking of another human life.... Justifiably or not.... With no more forethought than the casual shooting of a tweety bird..... Amounts to an adolescent, chest thumping, machismo... That fails to fully take into account the full ramifications of said actions....

Ne vous fÃ¢chez pas, s'il vous plait... Just my $.02


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Cotton Picker,

Again, I have no idea what youâre trying to say. 

Did you or did you not post this:



Cotton Picker said:


> I don't mean to challenge the masculinity of any of the posters here.... But let's forward a few alternate notions... How many here have killed another human being in war or self defense?....How many have been in an actual life or death firefight?... OK.... How many have looked down the barrel of a loaded weapon in the grasp of a hostile adversary?..... How many have had a home invasion?... While you were asleep in your bed?.....
> Chances are good that not too many here have experienced any of the above... An hopefully never will...


That is where I dug up the reference to YOUR prerequisites, if you bother to read any of my posts I wrote no such thing. I simply quoted you and wrote that many people have managed to defend themselves with firearms without the benefit of experiencing the above. 



Chuck R. said:


> Well despite your posturing, people use firearms very frequently to defend themselves without the benefit of:
> 
> Having killed another human being in war or self defense.
> Having been in an actual life or death firefight.
> ...


Also if you can find any âtrigger happy rhetoricâ in any of my posts please go ahead and quote it for me. 

Nowhere in any of my posts have I even alluded to any type of rules of engagement, again if you can find any examples please quote them.

I believe I've pretty much managed to stick to the issue of using birdshot for SD, and done my best to substantiate my opinions using articles, test reports, and ballistic data. 

Chuck


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

I think enough has been said about this topic.

Does someone want to start a new thread on the best caliber for defensive pistols?


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