# Farriers/Trimmers: Please Analyze These Hooves



## Phantomfyre (Jul 1, 2004)

Hi all, I was PMing back and forth with Jill and sent her some pictures of my coming 4-year-old (in June) filly, and she suggested I get some feedback on her hoof angles from the knowledgeable folks here. So I took some more pics of her feet this afternoon and am posting them below. What do you think?

Left Fore:

























Left Hind:

























And lastly, here's one of her standing. (I took this and several others yesterday when I was asking Jill about saddle fit - sorry she's not standing square. This is the most square of the bunch.)









Thanks in advance!


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## chewie (Jun 9, 2008)

jmo, but it seems she has NO heels left. we like some heel on our horses.


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## Witterbound (Sep 4, 2007)

It looks to me like they are too flat. Typically I think you want the front foot hoof angle to be around 50 degrees. It looks like these are more like 45 degrees. I'd say you need to leave more at the heel. But I'm only had 3 shoeing classes, so I'll be glad to hear what others say. They've taught us that you should be able to draw a straight line down the middle of the leg, and it should hit just behind the hoof on the ground. For your horse, it would hit about an inch or two behind that. That's another reason it looks like you need more heel, to make it more upright. Other than the angle, it looks like a good trim.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

She's not terrible, but not great either. She seems to naturally have low angles and I think if you leave excess heel, it would quickly become crushed and underrun. 

I'll write more when I'm at home on my computer.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

IMHO, it's a mistake to let angles dictate your trim. The right angles simply happen when you get the right amount of sole thickness all over, and trim the wall to that sole thickness (basically). But if you only try to make a certain angle by leaving this or cutting this (especially cutting sole away at the toe when it's already too thin as is often the case!).

She might need a touch more heel. By the shots it's hard for me to tell exactly how long they are compared to the frog and such. Usually you want them just slightly longer than your frog. Watch her trot, is she landing heel first? if she is landing toe first, leave a little more heel next time, she needs it. If she is landing heel first, then she's probably ok. 

Her feet are pretty good for what I normally see.

I prefer a bevel in the wall, instead of a perpendicular cut.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

Editing because I reread the OP and see the filly's age. I almost had a heart attack opening this though. She looks SO MUCH like a mare I sold -- and regret selling a bit. I was literally shaking. 

And now that I can think straight... the hooves. I agree with Malinda above and Tiempo below, but would ideally like to see some better side shots. They should be taken straight from the side, perpendicular to the side of the hoof rather than from an angle a little in front of and beside the hoof like these are. Improper photo angles can make for a lot of distortion on what the hooves are actually looking like IRL. I don't think it's the case here, but better safe than sorry. 

I definitely second the heel issue though. I wouldn't want any more heel on her, just pull them back a smidge -- back and down are two different things with heels though they are commonly confused for being the same thing. Barefoot her heels will crush faster than you can say "Crush!" BTDT. 

I'd also be interested, if you have them, of what her hooves were immediately before the trim. I'm assuming she wasn't trimmed too awful long before these pictures?


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

malinda said:


> She's not terrible, but not great either. She seems to naturally have low angles and I think if you leave excess heel, it would quickly become crushed and underrun.


 This.

And over enthusiastic beveling. The bevel should not be so severe that it reduces the ground bearing hoof wall to almost nothing as I see here, this is dubbing, not bevelling IMO.


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

Y'all, what I had mentioned to Phantomfyre was that I thought her filly's topline needed a bit more muscling before trying to find "the saddle" to fit her properly. I pointed out her prominent croup and what I believe I am seeing as lack of muscling along the spine (either side of her withers could fill in more with proper "use" of herself; i.e. self carriage to strengthen her back).

I also wondered if her hoof angles were contributing to her inverted way of going...again, an assumtion I made based on the total picture.... slightly weak back, prominent croup, etc.

I mentioned that lunging with properly adjusted side reins for a short amount of time (4x per week for six weeks then re-evaluate the topline) could strengthen and lift her back, as well as adding a bit more protein to her ration to help with the muscle development.

From what Phantomfyre has told me, this filly has come A LONG way; from very poor care to coming back to health.

Anyone else see anything to address?


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Tiempo said:


> This.
> 
> And over enthusiastic beveling. The bevel should not be so severe that it reduces the ground bearing hoof wall to almost nothing as I see here, this is dubbing, not bevelling IMO.


I also completely agree with this. Dubbing, gah. The bevel should be done from the ground side/bottom of the hoof, not "chopping" foot off with the rasp while the hoof is on a stand.

If she were my horse, I wouldn't change much with the heels - I would shoe her with a healthy breakover and some support behind (especially on her hind feet). You won't be able to achieve this with just trimming. She may only need to be shod for a few shoeing cycles to get her foot to grow more "under her leg". But, as I stated before, she looks to have naturally low angles, so you will never get an upright foot as you would with a more naturally upright horse.

I also agree with Jill, the filly doesn't have a topline, and it is something that must be developed with proper training before you start riding too much. When you do start riding, stay off of her back until she gets some strength - and when I say that I mean don't sit the trot - you should post the trot or even go into 2-point, and definitely 2-point for the canter. If her back is just a bit sore (and weak), she will hollow it even more if the rider is sitting the trot and canter.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

malinda said:


> I also completely agree with this. Dubbing, gah. The bevel should be done from the ground side/bottom of the hoof, not "chopping" foot off with the rasp while the hoof is on a stand.
> 
> If she were my horse, I wouldn't change much with the heels - I would shoe her with a healthy breakover and some support behind (especially on her hind feet). You won't be able to achieve this with just trimming. She may only need to be shod for a few shoeing cycles to get her foot to grow more "under her leg". But, as I stated before, she looks to have naturally low angles, so you will never get an upright foot as you would with a more naturally upright horse.
> 
> I also agree with Jill, the filly doesn't have a topline, and it is something that must be developed with proper training before you start riding too much. When you do start riding, stay off of her back until she gets some strength - and when I say that I mean don't sit the trot - you should post the trot or even go into 2-point, and definitely 2-point for the canter. If her back is just a bit sore (and weak), she will hollow it even more if the rider is sitting the trot and canter.


I started to post about the possibility of shoeing but don't follow the equine boards here so wasn't sure if it was a dirty word here. I'm glad you said it first. 

I had a horse that resembles this one uncannily (to the point I'm not convinced it's not the same horse... LOL!). Right down to the hooves and shoeing her made a world of difference. I probably still have the pictures of her before/after around here somewhere...


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## Phantomfyre (Jul 1, 2004)

She was just trimmed on Monday. Unfortunately, I do not have "before" pics.

I knew I way overdid the bevel this time :doh: and almost didn't post these pics because of that, but didn't want to delay the filly's progress because of my pride.  I screwed that up, but thankfully, that's easy to fix - I was "cheating" on Monday using the hoof stand and overdid one foot, so felt I needed to balance things out. And then she got wiggly when I was doing her hind feet and I managed to do the same thing. :bash: No more hoof stand filing!

I'm pretty sure the side shots are about dead-on from the side, even though they might look like they're a little from the front. I can try to take a few more pics tomorrow being SURE I'm straight on with the camera, and take some of the underside to show the soles better - they aren't actually flat like they appear - and to show heel height relative to frog and sole better - her feet have good sole concavity and her heels are actually a little longer than the rest of the foot. I had to trim her frog because it was way longer than anything else on her foot - with all this snow, she hasn't been wearing her frogs down at all, and they just grow and grow and were laying over.

As for pulling her heels back - Olivehill, can you help me understand that? I don't know how I'd do that - there's no where to go that wouldn't involve taking off more heel? Another pic might be helpful here...

She does land heel-first.

It sounds like shoeing her is a temporary, partial fix? And I wonder if it's truly a "fix" to change her natural angles, even if they are low - they're not "textbook," but they are natural. If she's never going to have more upright angles when barefoot, is the little bit of gain I can maybe get with shoes worth it? 

If I can, I'd rather develop her self-carriage through exercise and conditioning than by manipulating her hoof angles. That'll mean more time and work on my part, but I'm okay with that! I just need to know what to do. Jill recommended lunging with *properly adjusted* side reins. What follows is my response to Jill this afternoon:


> I've been leery of lunging her because of all the talk that it's hard on joints. (That and I sort of developed an aversion to side-reins because of their frequent improper use. But probably, that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater...) Since I haven't lunged her at all to speak of, I'm going to have to take some time lunging her without side reins first.
> 
> She's a TWH, but she has a lovely trot (LOL) and I don't mind her doing that as a means of developing her topline, but I do need to keep in mind that when I start asking her to gait, it will require a different frame...
> 
> Until she's ready for side reins, would you suggest anything else to start working her topline? I've started doing some lateral work with her from the ground - sidepassing and turning on the fore and hind. I just started riding her a little, too, asking her to bend, disengage her hind quarters, etc. She gets tired quickly (understandably!) so only a few minutes at a time, and then I get off and do more in-hand work with her. I literally take her for walks - like a dog - to build her confidence and develop emotional maturity. We're to the point where we can jog along together - will doing more of that help? (It'll help MY physical condition, for sure, LOL!) What if I introduce side reins on our walks/jogs?


(OK, back to not copying my PM.)

Feed-wise, she's currently on Purina Enrich 32 (32% protein balanced mineral supplement) at 1 lb./day. (1/2 lb. AM & PM) Should I bump that up? This is in addition to her hay, of course, which is orchardgrass/timothy/red clover, which she gets *almost* free-choice - I feed in small-mesh haynets and give them enough so they have hay most of the time. They do run out before the next feeding, though. For 3 horses (one of which doesn't eat as much hay because of his worn-out teeth - he's 34, and is on Senior for pretty much all his calories because the equine dentist just can't do anything with "worn out") I'm feeding 50-60 lbs./day. The filly's body score (fat-wise) is good - pretty much right at 5.

So now I've totally taken this thread from "please look at her feet" to "how do I develop this little girl into a horse?" At least it's my own thread I hijacked...


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I'm guessing this little horse went a long time without a trim... probably started getting trimmed maybe two months ago? I see a change in the angle of the hoof wall, up near where I would guess the "two months ago" mark would be, at least at the rate that hooves grow here at my place. I think that if you keep these toes pulled back to where they are supposed to bee, her hoof angle will improve and it will help her pastern angle as well. Another benefit will be that she will be putting her weight over the heels more and you will be able to leave more heel without it getting crushed.

It'll just take a little time, that's all.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

No, in this case shoeing is not meant to "fix" her "angles". Like I said, she is naturally low and that's just the way she is.

Shoeing with a better breakover will take the stress off her limbs. She has ALOT of toe (especially on her hinds) and you can't trim it back without getting her soles too thin. By using a square toe shoe or something similar, you can move the breakover back without needing to radically trim the toe. A few shoeing cycles, and her foot can start to come back under her leg on it's own.

Last summer, I picked up a new client who had a 4 or 5yo gelding who has feet very similar to your filly. He was just a QH who the owner wanted to trail ride. He was only green broke, but the owner noticed he was quite sore in his back and over his croup. I personally thought shoes would only help him marginally, but the owner insisted. Six weeks later, when I came back to reset him, the owner was raving about how great he was doing. She was able to ride him more often and for longer periods without him being cranky and sore, like he previously was. He had shoes on for two shoeing cycles before we pulled them for the winter, and his feet had made remarkable changes for the better.

And a bit of lunging isn't going to hurt a coming 4yo filly. Of course, she should walk/trot/canter (or gait) quietly, not run around in circles like a madwoman! Maybe you're confusing side reins with draw reins? Side reins are very helpful in teaching a horse to accept contact with the bit and help them be round and strengthen their backs. Draw reins are reins attached usually to the girth, going through the bit rings, then to the rider's hands. Draw reins are like a pulley that just pulls the horse's face in towards their chest and teaches them to back off of bit pressure.

Another thing you can do is belly lifts and back stretches. While she is standing, scratch/tickle/poke with your fingernails her belly until she tightens her abs and lifts her back (this is what you want her to do under saddle too). Also have her stretch for treats - hold a treat between her knees, and have her stretch for it. Hold one near her elbow, and have her stretch for it. I'm not a huge fan of feeding treats by hand, but have found these exercises very useful. Of course, you know your filly and if she is very mouthy maybe the treat thing isn't going to be an option for you, but usually fillies aren't as mouthy as colts and the treat thing works ok.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I don't think the bit of dubbing here is a real negative thing in this case. Myself, I do dub toes when the hooves are very pulled-forward (from being ignored for a long time). I don't touch the toe callous or the sole at all when I dub a toe and when the hoof wall is dubbed back, all the unnecessary sole gets worn away pretty quickly (well, unless they are only on very soft pasture) when the hoof wall isn't down there to protect it. After the sole wears down the appropriate amount, the dubbing is pretty much gone.


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## Phantomfyre (Jul 1, 2004)

jennigrey said:


> I'm guessing this little horse went a long time without a trim... probably started getting trimmed maybe two months ago?


No, actually, she's been trimmed regularly - double-checked my calendar to be sure: 
Feb. 7 (3 weeks)
Jan. 17 (5 weeks) 
Dec. 12 (3.5 weeks) 
Nov. 17 (7 weeks)
Sept. 30 (9 weeks) 
July 30...

BUT! It was almost exactly 2 months ago that I switched her from Omolene 200 to the Enrich 32!

I also added the small-mesh haynets at about that time...


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Sorry, guess I'm seeing ghosts. Looked to me like the tubules change angle just a bit below the hairline.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

I agree with Malinda. I think she needs to have shoes set back to offer more support over the center of her limbs. Wedges might be something to consider.


Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## Witterbound (Sep 4, 2007)

In the first pic, of the left fore. Isn't it flaring out? If I draw a straight line from the top of the hoof wall down, the line would cut through the hoof below, or are my eyes deceiving me? The back foot does not appear to have any flare out to me. Also, since she has been trimmed regularly, isn't it more likely that the trims have caused her to low angles, rather than this occurring naturally? It also looks like the frogs should be trimmed on the sides to let the dirt and mud escape. What do you more expierenced folks think about this? I'm here to learn, not come across as the expert.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Is the horse comfortable? Landing heel first? Then I wouldn't go trying to make this or that shape or angle. Often that causes more problems that anything. Just IMHO

I would clean up the side and cleft of the frogs too.

Looking at her coat color though, I would consider she may need mineral improvements. A lot of horses don't get enough copper/zinc, and too much iron.
Look at the difference in these feet after putting the horse on a super low iron, high copper, high zinc mineral. Of course, minerals are about balance and we all have different needs with our hays/pastures, but this seems to be a common one. It's why I really dislike red mineral, especially red blocks (iron oxide). 

This horse also had very thin soles from a laminitic episode last spring. All summer his soles would not get thicker. One month after the change in mineral he was finally building some. They are really nice now. Better than they ever have been.










Different horse, same story. This horse was horribly lame from founder to start, 3 months and he was running around the pasture. Mineral deficiencies affect sugar metabolism, plus they are needed to build quality hoof material. I told the owner I felt the minerals played a bigger part than my hoof care for this horse's improvement.


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## Phantomfyre (Jul 1, 2004)

*First and foremost, I want to say THANK YOU to everyone who's taken time to offer their insights and information! And for your continued help! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!*

Okay, I now return to my regularly scheduled rambling.



malinda said:


> Shoeing with a better breakover will take the stress off her limbs. She has ALOT of toe (especially on her hinds) and you can't trim it back without getting her soles too thin. By using a square toe shoe or something similar, you can move the breakover back without needing to radically trim the toe. A few shoeing cycles, and her foot can start to come back under her leg on it's own.


Ahh, okay, I see. Move the breakover point, not change the angle. Has your client's horse stayed good barefoot as his hooves have grown since having shoes pulled? If I shoe her and she improves, when I take the shoes off, would her low angles start pulling that toe forward again...?



> Maybe you're confusing side reins with draw reins?


I think my issues with side reins stem from growing up watching the TWH "industry." This is also where my aversion to changing angles comes from. And my aversion to shanked bits. And partly, admittedly, to shoes. Yeah, I know that's going overboard, but, well, you've seen those poor horses. Even a lot of the "flat shod" horses have horrifying amounts of hoof wall, often dished and obviously flaring. So, um, yeah, I have issues. I need to work on those...



southerngurl said:


> Is the horse comfortable? Landing heel first?


Yes, I believe so, and yes. I started to second guess, so I went out and made videos of her today and then frame advanced them to make sure. She IS landing heel first.



> Looking at her coat color though, I would consider she may need mineral improvements. A lot of horses don't get enough copper/zinc, and too much iron.


Here's a pic of her a few months after I got her. She's supposed to be black! I don't know how we caught shine in her coat - there wasn't much! I had *finally* gotten her to let go of the last of her winter coat (this was taken in August, IIRC) and she had already put on some weight at this point:









I did switch her from Omolene 200 (14% protein) to Enrich 32 (32% protein) in early December - so I won't see a difference in her coat from that until spring. She has been getting 1 lb./day, but I'm wondering if I should increase that...? The Enrich 32 analysis is:
Copper 185ppm
Zinc 500 ppm
Iron 600 ppm

I took a few more pics of her feet and legs today, too. Didn't change or clean up anything, just took the pics:
Left Fore

































It was tricky getting a side shot that looks like it's from the side! She toes out some:









And the Left Hind:

















I'm hoping some of the snow melts this week so I can find a place to work her that isn't ice and/or covered in 18" of snow!


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

> I'm wondering if I should increase that...? The Enrich 32 analysis is:
> Copper 185ppm
> Zinc 500 ppm
> Iron 600 ppm


That's too much iron IMHO. My horses don't get any grain, just forage/hay and minerals so this isn't a direct comparison. But their mineral contains

2000 ppm Copper
7100 ppm Zinc
300 ppm iron

Of course they likely aren't getting as much of this mineral as your horse gets the Enrich, but they do eat a lot of it. But look at the ratios of copper to iron and zinc to iron. That much iron is basically doing away with the zinc and copper.


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## Phantomfyre (Jul 1, 2004)

I have to make a run to the feed store tomorrow. I know they carry Purina's Free Balance 12:12 blocks, which have:
Copper 1740 ppm
Zinc 6800 ppm
Here's a link to the rest of the analysis.

I could pick one of those up. I also have to pick up a salt block - I use the plain white salt.

The Enrich 32 is more of a pelleted supplement than a grain ration. No one here needs to gain weight, but I want to make sure their protein and mineral needs are covered, so I've been feeding that in addition to their hay.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Phantomfyre said:


> Ahh, okay, I see. Move the breakover point, not change the angle. Has your client's horse stayed good barefoot as his hooves have grown since having shoes pulled? If I shoe her and she improves, when I take the shoes off, would her low angles start pulling that toe forward again...?
> 
> 
> 
> I think my issues with side reins stem from growing up watching the TWH "industry." This is also where my aversion to changing angles comes from. And my aversion to shanked bits. And partly, admittedly, to shoes. Yeah, I know that's going overboard, but, well, you've seen those poor horses. Even a lot of the "flat shod" horses have horrifying amounts of hoof wall, often dished and obviously flaring. So, um, yeah, I have issues. I need to work on those...


I totally agree with you about the horrendous shoeing seen in the big lick TWHs! (and some of the flat shod, too) That said, there is nothing wrong with using a plain, average weight shoe, on an average length hoof of a horse that may need it.

My client's horse has been barefoot since November, I believe. His feet have shown improvement, but we plan to shoe him again in spring and I think that will help him improve even more. If you have your filly shod correctly, I believe that her hoof would retain good form after going barefoot again if you keep on top of her long toe issue, which it seems you will do. She seems to have really good hoof quality, which helps a lot!

I would be interested to see pics of her feet 3-4 weeks from now, because that will show what her foot is trying to do naturally, and I might have a few suggestions as far as trimming at that point.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Can I ask why you bevel the heels like that PF?

I prefer to only bevel from toe quarter to toe quarter to keep plenty hoof wall weight bearing.

I will aggressively chase flares, but I like to keep a flat, ground contacting heel as much as possible.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

A horse will naturally wear a bevel all the way around if he moves enough to keep up with his growth, though the bevel gets to be less as it nears the heels. So many copy this in their trim, as do I. But the bevel is fairly slight in the back of the foot.


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## Phantomfyre (Jul 1, 2004)

malinda said:


> I would be interested to see pics of her feet 3-4 weeks from now, because that will show what her foot is trying to do naturally, and I might have a few suggestions as far as trimming at that point.


Thanks, Malinda! I'll report back with pics next month. 



Tiempo said:


> Can I ask why you bevel the heels like that PF?


I round off everything, like SG said. But this trim, with things overdone, what is normally rounded off is beveled.


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