# Hydroponic Fodder Production



## just_sawing (Jan 15, 2006)

Does anyone here do this currently? I have looked at the numbers and it is the way to have a homestead on small acerage. 
Graze Green - CropKing's Fodder production system
THe unit is pricey but it would put a person in business imediately.
I am currently working up the small acerage hog operation and this keeps coming up on top for maximum use and profit on a small acerage
What I have looked at is stone wall pens that are on a slight drainage and the lower side has a gate that can be removed. 
Sawdust from my Mill operation would cover about a foot deep of the ground. I would buy feeders to start with and top them out. How many is to be determined. (3 for the family)
THe Sow operation would be free range in a ceder thicket. Farrowing barn for when it is time. 
When the hogs are top out I would remove the gate and scape the pens down. The Sawdust would be very mixed and have enough organic matter it would break down in a couple of months. (I burn slabs and the ashes go on the organic sawdust and sweeten the acidity) This gives me raised bed material and a sellable comodity.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

Looks very interesting - and very expensive. There are tons of hydroponic retail stores all over the country these days - I might wander into one, with a print out of what you are trying to do, and see if someone might be able to help you think through creating your own system on the cheap. 

If you are only trying to grow out 3 pigs you might be able to do it, self made. If you are trying to raise a ton of pigs then buying a system might be preferable.

thanks for posting the link! Going to talk with dh and see if we can convert our plant growing area to a fodder growing area for the winter.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Honestly I don't see any thing practical about the system.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I actually looked at hydroponic systems many years ago when I first moved to Las Vegas, just to supplement hay for the horses. There simply was no pasture available ... you fed hay all the time. 

It wasn't practical then from a cost standpoint but for small acreage/ backyard rabbit production ... one milk goat ... might be very practical with some kind of home-built system.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Whenever I think about intensifying production with the by the purchase of expensive buildings and equipment I ask myself how that compares with buying more land with that money.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Allen W said:


> Honestly I don't see any thing practical about the system.


I looked at the Crop King system several years ago because I thought that it might work for the area that we were thinking about relocating to. There are alot of horse breeders in Ocala Florida and I thought that it might be a nice niche item to sell to folks that spend a fortune breeding and training such expensive animals.

However, my eventual conclusion was that the Crop King System was rather expensive for me to purchase but inexpensive for folks with deep pockets. To me that indicated that the folks that were willing to spend a fortune raising world class animals could just as easily set up their own Crop King hydroponic fodder system and have a regular farm minion to tend to it.

In our case, I would have been the farm minion... I think I still have a dvd about the system that was sent to me by Crop King.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I seem to remember that Crop King was running around OH trying to sell aquaculture systems.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

fishhead said:


> I seem to remember that Crop King was running around OH trying to sell aquaculture systems.


They claimed that it operated on less power than it took to operate a lightbulb. I never understood how that could work...


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I do this on a very small scale for our rabbits, but for pigs or cattle I don't see that it would work out. For one the cost of so many seeds.

I do grow some of my rabbits feed,but in the ground during the summer. I can use maybe 1000 seeds per 100 square foot and cut it all summer. 1 pound of millet and 1 pound of austrailian peas or rye berries. less than $1 for the whole project.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Farmtek has a system like this as well.

If I had a room that I could heat during the winter for this I would go for it.
Three horses and chickens and I could forgo hay all winter. I spend 1000.00 on hay each winter. So I think this would pay for itself in five or 6 years. The Farmtek one is about 4000.00 or so.

My horses would also eat better.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

I too, looked at the Farmtec, which is expensive also.

Seems to me, a similar system, could be made for much, much less, with PVC guttering, pumps and pvc pipes.


Testing a hydroponic setup, is on my to-do list - about a mile down now.


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## bigredfeather (Apr 22, 2011)

I will be picking up my Crop King fodder system on Friday. I actually talked them into creating a smaller "Homestead" version. It still has (24) trays, but it is only 6' long instead of 13'. It will produce 3 trays per day @ about 35 pounds per tray or 105 pounds per day. It is not on the market yet, so they are asking me to try it out and give them some feedback. I am very anxious to get it up and running. If all goes as planned, I am going to expand my herd of goats, add a cow and rabbits, and hope to feed out my broilers on fodder. I am also wanting to start raising hogs to sell. We'll see how it goes. We built a homemade one that does work on a very small scale, but we've had some problems with it.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

You should read this thread before you commit to buying a system. Also there are many DIY examples on youtube. 

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/cattle/475628-can-done-cheaply.html


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Please, bigredfeather, as Johnny said, read the thread he posted. Fodder is WAY over-rated. You already have to pay good money for the grain. Why would one add more cost, only to have it lose weight, and gain you nothing in terms of animal performance. It is simply not practical, and a hyped up system, IMO.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

I spent $3700.00 on this winter's hay; just the hay. There's nothing more frustrating than buying hay at an inflated price and having the animals refuse to eat it.

You don't have to spend a fortune building a fodder system. At least you have control over the quality of the fodder.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

This fodder is not a substitute for roughage. The plants start producing photosynthesis on day 6 and fiber on day 8 which is the day protein starts to drop.

Many are saying they are saving money feeding this fodder .... I would need to know more specifically how they are saving. Maybe they are saving because they were buying high priced bagged manufactured feeds and now just buying local grains and sprouting.

There may be some health benefits .... something university trials did not test for.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> They claimed that it operated on less power than it took to operate a lightbulb. I never understood* how that could work...*


*GOVERNMENT* math


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

I was all hyped up to do a fodder system. Had toyed with numerous ideas for a DIY set up, perhaps using el cheapo used watermelon harvesting equipment where a tray of seed would go in one end and come out 6 days later on the far end, right into a wagon for easy distribution. But then i read the studies that show no real gain for the cost of labor and fixed assets. So it ends up better just to feed bovine and equine the seed. That was a very disappointing conclusion, but it makes no sense to me to fight the science until someone can show proof otherwise.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Just a suggestion....I fed ~100 brood cows plus the calves from roughly 1/2 of the cows (I calve year round) all Winter following the drought on NO hay. I do rotational grazing described on the cattle forum here in the sticky area) If you want cheap feed change your methods and forget the fad.
Area recently grazed near end of Feb


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## sandc (Apr 26, 2010)

I decided to play with the whole fodder thing as more of an experiment than anything else. I started by contacting a local guy that does seamless gutters and had him drop me 12 4ft sections of gutter with endcaps. I built a wooden rack that was open from the front and would hold three gutters per level. I put a drain with a tube on one end of each and clipped a tube on the other for water to feed into. I used a tote with a pump and timer I had as spares for my hydroponics system to finish it out as a closed loop system.

I found a source locally that ran me around $13 for a 100lb bag of barley and alfalfa seeds and gave it a try. My first batch netted me between 265-295lbs of fodder to feed per 50lbs of seed. I tried feeding it to our rabbits, chickens, ducks and goats. Everyone except for the ducks completely devoured what they wre given. I mean not a single piece was left.

I would count the whole process as very successful. I have a few samples sent off to the labs at CSU so that I can get a better nutritional analysis of the final product so that I have an idea of where it would truly fit into a feeding schedule around here, but I do see it as something that could be very beneficial and can be tailored to however small or large of a system that you need. I looked at the systems available and saw no reason that someone creative couldn't build a system for around 10% or less of their costs. I have probably 6 hours and $400 into my system, and that is with a pricey pump and timer that I only used because I had them on hand. If I had gone out to buy a pump and timer just for this system I would have probably only had $250 into the system.

If you have the space to set up a system, I can definitely see its place in offsetting feed costs with a nutritional alternative. I don't see it as a complete replacement, but it can definitely lower the costs in smaller operations.

I will set mine back up after I get all of the seed flats I have planted out and into the hoop houses.


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## sunflower-n-ks (Aug 7, 2006)

sandc said:


> I decided to play with the whole fodder thing as more of an experiment than anything else. I started by contacting a local guy that does seamless gutters and had him drop me 12 4ft sections of gutter with endcaps. I built a wooden rack that was open from the front and would hold three gutters per level. I put a drain with a tube on one end of each and clipped a tube on the other for water to feed into. I used a tote with a pump and timer I had as spares for my hydroponics system to finish it out as a closed loop system.
> 
> I found a source locally that ran me around $13 for a 100lb bag of barley and alfalfa seeds and gave it a try. My first batch netted me between 265-295lbs of fodder to feed per 50lbs of seed. I tried feeding it to our rabbits, chickens, ducks and goats. Everyone except for the ducks completely devoured what they wre given. I mean not a single piece was left.
> 
> ...


For me, this is the bottom line - another form of food. It is not about the "weight" of the grain versus the "weight" of the dried fodder. That is totally irrelevent. It is about turning a food source into something that is "better" for the animal it is being fed to. Cattle and some other animals are grass eating animals and grain should be a small portion of their diet. Fodder turns that grain into grass, which is what the animal should be eating. Yes, hay and other things do complete their requirements. For the people living in the drought areas and places where there is NO pasture during the winter, fodder can help a farmer KEEP their herd and keep them healthy. It is beyond sad to see a farmer sell their herd because there is no hay to feed, or the price has gone through the ceiling.

And to compare the cost of producing fodder based on the price of the big company systems, is again, not logical. It is not rocket sience, it is easy to set up a system with many tyes of materials. I read about a lady that is feeding some milk cows with some kitchen plastic containers holding the seeds, etc. Ya don't have to spend thousands to grow it, unless you want to or are going big time with it. 

It is not a "new fad" per sey. I read a book about a turn of the last century egg farm. Using no modern methods, learning as they went, keeping meticulous records, etc. they created a first of its kind egg farm. One of the things they incorperated into their feed program was oat fodder. Everything they did had to show value or they did not continue with it. Oat fodder showed value to them.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

No it is not a new fad. The nutritional value was tested way back in 1938-39 (in the link I previously referred to)

The claims of the companies selling the equipment are quite exaggerated also (read the link)


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

sandc said:


> I decided to play with the whole fodder thing as more of an experiment than anything else. I started by contacting a local guy that does seamless gutters and had him drop me 12 4ft sections of gutter with endcaps. I built a wooden rack that was open from the front and would hold three gutters per level. I put a drain with a tube on one end of each and clipped a tube on the other for water to feed into. I used a tote with a pump and timer I had as spares for my hydroponics system to finish it out as a closed loop system.
> 
> I found a source locally that ran me around $13 for a 100lb bag of barley and alfalfa seeds and gave it a try. My first batch netted me between 265-295lbs of fodder to feed per 50lbs of seed. I tried feeding it to our rabbits, chickens, ducks and goats. Everyone except for the ducks completely devoured what they wre given. I mean
> not a single piece was left.
> ...


How long did you run this "experiment" and did you keep some animals on their normal ration to compare to the ones eating fodder ?


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## bigredfeather (Apr 22, 2011)

First off, as I stated above, I did build a small system to try it out before buying a more professional model. I built a 6 tray system that produces about 20 lbs per day (which is for sale now). I had one fresh goat that got the fodder right away. In just 2 weeks, her milk production increased. I've been bottle feeding her kids with her milk, and they are getting a small amount of fodder eat day, and they are the biggest, healthiest looking kids I have ever had on the farm, and they have not gotten any grain or pellets. In the past, I've given my fresh goats about 2 pounds of grain per milking. With feeding the fodder, I've cut that down to less than 1 pound per milking, and this doe is producing more, yet maintaining her condition. I also switched my grain ration from one that was 18% protein, to one that is all whole grains and is only 14% protein. As far as hay, I had been buying quality 3rd or 4th cutting that was running $220/ton. I am now feeding grass hay that I can get for $60/ton. I am getting my barley for $0.30/pound, and it is very high quality that sprouts very well. I have kept very good records in the past. When I compare my costs now to pre fodder, I am saving $0.61/day per goat, and getting higher production and healthier animals. $0.61 per day saving is over $200 a year saving times 5 goats, which is a $1,000 per year saving on just the goats.
agmantoo - I only have 1 acre of pasture, and I use it for my broilers, so there is no way I could graze unless I start buying $11,000/acre land.

I think it's a great system and very benificial otherwise I wouldn't be forking out the amount of money I am. IMO, feeding fodder is going to have a tremendous effect on my bottom line, and actually allow me to make more money on the things I sell. I raise and sell about 700 broilers per year, and I'm currently feeding 100 chicks in the brooder half as much feed as I typically would, and replacing it with fodder. They love it. An hour after feeding 3 pounds of fodder, (100) 2 week old chicks have it completely gone. My Buckeyes eat it up as well. I feed (40) of them 10 pounds per day.

I don't see this as a fad at all. Sprouting grains to increase digestion has been going on for thousands of years. It's a fact that digestion of grains is very low (about 40%, even less in non ruminets). The introduction of these systems has just made it a bit easier. I could be proven wrong, but I think it's a great way to make quality feed, at a reasonable price, and in a small area.


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## MJFarms (Sep 20, 2008)

Bigredfeather do you live close to crop king? Stay in touch I'd like to see how it work outs. I've been playing around with wheat in basement with fair results. I,m not sure why I have slow growth and limited germination. Temp in basement is only 56 to 58.


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## bigredfeather (Apr 22, 2011)

MJFarms - I don't live as close to CK as you do, I have about a 2 1/2 hour drive (each way).

Idea temp range for fodder is 60-75 degrees, with 65 being optimal.


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## solidwoods (Dec 23, 2005)

If you have a south facing wall, I'd build a greenhouse on it.
Do aquaponics.
Get large diameter pvc , make a jig to hold it on the mill and mill it in half
Consider the run lengths you will need in the gh, if you will need to join pieces to make longer lengths maybe glue a coupling on the pvc stick and saw them both in half (easier than sawing just a coupling)
Aquaponics is easy. You get fish vegs and all the sprouted seeds you want.
You can also set up the sprout trays multi level to maximize the gh floor space
Then dry the pig manure/sawdust and run it through a gasifier to run an engine/generator. That heats the gh and runs supplimental lights or use the hot water to heat an area.
jim


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Does anyone have a nutritional comparison table showing the difference between sprouted and unsprouted grains? 

And maybe a table showing the rise and decline of nutrients and enzymes in the sprouted grains?


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

fishhead said:


> Does anyone have a nutritional comparison table showing the difference between sprouted and unsprouted grains?
> 
> And maybe a table showing the rise and decline of nutrients and enzymes in the sprouted grains?


http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewco...ontext=ans_air

http://www.qcl.farmonline.com.au/fil...onicfodder.pdf


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## bigredfeather (Apr 22, 2011)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewco...ontext=ans_air
> 
> http://www.qcl.farmonline.com.au/fil...onicfodder.pdf


Johnny - That second link is very informative. I've read it 3x and I'm starting to understand it a bit more.


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

I do it everyday cheaply and easily I wouldnt ever switch back now. I grow it in a spare room. Theres a Fodder Forum at http://fodderfeed.proboards.com/


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Johnny Dolittle said:


> http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewco...ontext=ans_air
> 
> http://www.qcl.farmonline.com.au/fil...onicfodder.pdf



I read even more of that second link this time, looking for a reason to argue with their conclusion. As much as i want to like the fodder systems based on the advertized benefits, it just doesn't add up to a economically justified use of my time and money. 

The best thing I can come up with is that there MIGHT be a small advantage for horses. I do things that might not be economically justifiable for a commercial stable but I do them because both I and the horses enjoy it. This includes growing and feeding melons, apples, turnips, carrots, and a few other odds and ends. For the chix, they get even more stuff and that I can justify as purchased feed offsets. 

So I might try a small scale DIY fodder project to create treats for the critters, IF I can find free or mostly free materials since it won't be saving me cash.


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## bigredfeather (Apr 22, 2011)

My conclusion is that it isn't economical for large scale operations due to the high cost of the systems. They reference a system that costs $70,000. In that case, I can see how they are coming to this conclusion.


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## MJFarms (Sep 20, 2008)

For me economical is second. Have any of u read what's in a bag of processed grain? Even with it being a lateral switch if I have a healthier herd and can market my animals as naturally fed its worth it. Seems it would be easier to buy a ton of barley at harvest time and store it than purchase 6 or 7 tons of grain and store that.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

bigredfeather said:


> My conclusion is that it isn't economical for large scale operations due to the high cost of the systems. They reference a system that costs $70,000. In that case, I can see how they are coming to this conclusion.


Actually, if you read that study, the feed value isn't improved to any meaningful degree. So even if the fodder system is free, it still doesn't add up to economically justifiable based on your labor being worth something.


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

I guess if you wanted a more accurate idea you would talk or read up on farmers who actually use fodder as apposed to a study that doesnt live it day to day. The major operations using fodder are those stricken by drought and extremely high hay prices firstly Australia, India some in Texas etc. 

I live it and use it because it does save me money on my feed costs and I can say I spend less than ten minutes a day in my labor into making it so.....it works well for me! 

People have been sprouting for generations for either animal use or human consumption the nutritional analysis are abundant.


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

Heres an interesting link:

http://www.globalfodder.com/products/nutritional-data/


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## sandc (Apr 26, 2010)

dolittle-

I thought I had posted back into this, but I couldn't see it. I only ran my system for around 6 weeks total looking at my notes. I primarily wanted to see how well the feed was received by my various livestock so that I could see if it would be something I wanted to pursue at a later date. I had to tear it down and store it because it was in the space that I use for propagation and it is now propagation season. I will be building a smaller hoophouse here in the backyard soon so that I have space for a couple of different projects that I am wanting to play with and will be setting the system back up in there over the next two months.

Reading through the thread I see a few people that talk about it not being worth their time and that it does not seem cost effective on a large scale. This is not true hydroponics where you have to play with a lot of different things to make it work. It is large scale sprouting. You could even go so low tech as to build wooden boxes and line them with plastic, and use a $20 sprinkler timer to run your watering. 

There is a definite cost savings here. $11 of seeds with a water input that probably cost me $2-$3 netted me close to 280# of feed that fed goats, chickens and rabbits.

That is the equivalent of 14 bags of feed averaging around $18 per bag, so it replaced $252 worth of feed if you do not take into account the labor and time involved in running to the feed store and transferring feed from your truck to where you store it as well as your fuel and time. For the time I had to invest in the actual system after I had it set up and running, I can tell you my labor was more than saved in the value as well. Am I planning on replacing my feed with fodder? Not at the moment, but you can be assured that I do plan on getting my fodder system back online and then using it to offset my feed costs. During the time I used it, my bag of rabbit feed ($20) went from lasting 4-6 days to lasting almost 3 weeks. I just keep feed in my rabbit feeders and don't measure it, just keep up with how long it lasts. My goats also consumed much less hay and less feed during the same time. I did not measure the change as close as I should have, but I do know that instead of having to add more hay every morning and night, it was down to every other morning.

I look at the bottom line of everything I do. I want to know whether each thing I do produces enough in either profit or savings for me to keep on doing it. I believe that fodder is one of those things that once you get it going can add to your bottom line by cutting your expenses.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Thing is, you still have to buy the dang seed!!! I don't get how it is cheaper. You buy a bushel (60lbs) of wheat, add water to sprout and grow it, and end up with maybe a few hundred lbs of feed, of which 250 lbs is (drumrollllllllll), WATER!!!!

It is not like 200 lbs of dry matter suddenly appears. On a dry matter basis, the seeds actually LOSE weight. That is why there is a protein gain, because when tested on a dry matter basis, the dry seed loses weight, and therefore the protein concentration is greater slightly. 

In a drought, grain prices go up and there is less of it. No different than hay. 

Animals love fodder, no doubt, we all know that, but to state it is cheaper is simply bizarre. I will admit, water is cheap. 

As I mentioned in another thread, when you sprout grain, the first thing that happens, is it uses some of its energy to grow a root, then a shoot, and in this process, it loses weight. Grain farmers know this all too well.

My point is, it is a greatly over-embelished system. People talk of this magical 7 to one ratio. Of total weight sure, but most of that weight is water. Animals have been fed hay and grain for eons. They thrive already. This magical food, is over hyped. Palatable? Yes. Better for the stock? Than what? Debatable. Cheaper? Impossible.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Sandc - Help me understand, because as I say, I like this idea so much I want it to work if it can produce the financial benefit you state.

Let's say you need to feed 1 cup of grain and that equals X% of the daily caloric and nutritional needs of your animal. But instead of dry grain you sprout it. That grain, mixed with water and 6 days wait becomes sprouts? It has definitely increased in volume. Volume is important for some people and horses to keep from eating too many calories, but for livestock fattening for freezer, it is probably counter productive. 

The sprouts are more digestible which may make the nutrition more available to the animals, but unless the sprouts have absorbed something from the air or water, it is still pretty much the same X calories and nutrition. The starches and sugars have changed. 

The fiber is insufficient to offset much in the way of hay because it is still basically the same amount of fiber as the seed, just spread out over a larger area. 

Until photosynthesis starts on day 5 - 8, depending on who you believe and how much sun you can bring to the sprouts, there is no carbon increase from the air. And the scientific study said even that the most generous carbon increase was virtually nil.

I'm no botanist, biologist, or scientist of any sort. So there is no doubt I have something wrong in all the above. Can you tell me what I'm missing?


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

Fodder For Thought:

Sprouts are said to be rich in digestible energy, bioavailable vitamins, minerals, amino acids, proteins, and phytochemicals, as these are necessary for a germinating plant to grow.[3] These nutrients are essential for human health. To clarify, the nutritional changes upon germination & sprouting have been summarized below. Chavan and Kadam (1989)[citation needed] concluded that - &#8220;The desirable nutritional changes that occur during sprouting are mainly due to the breakdown of complex compounds into a more simple form, transformation into essential constituents and breakdown of nutritionally undesirable constituents.&#8221;

&#8220;The metabolic activity of resting seeds increases as soon as they are hydrated during soaking. Complex biochemical changes occur during hydration and subsequent sprouting. The reserve chemical constituents, such as protein, starch and lipids, are broken down by enzymes into simple compounds that are used to make new compounds.&#8221;

&#8220;Sprouting grains causes increased activities of hydrolytic enzymes, improvements in the contents of total proteins, fat, certain essential amino acids, total sugars, B-group vitamins, and a decrease in dry matter, starch and anti-nutrients. The increased contents of protein, fat, fibre and total ash are only apparent and attributable to the disappearance of starch. However, improvements in amino acid composition, B-group vitamins, sugars, protein and starch digestibilities, and decrease in phytates and protease inhibitors[disambiguation needed] are the metabolic effects of the sprouting process.&#8221;

Increases in Protein Quality Chavan and Kadam (1989)[citation needed] stated - &#8220;Very complex qualitative changes are reported to occur during soaking and sprouting of seeds. The conversion of storage proteins of cereal grains into albumins and globulins during sprouting may improve the quality of cereal proteins. Many studies have shown an increase in the content of the amino acid Lysine with sprouting.&#8221;

&#8220;An increase in proteolytic activity during sprouting is desirable for nutritional improvement of cereals because it leads to hydrolysis of prolamins and the liberated amino acids such as glutamic and proline are converted to limiting amino acids such as lysine.&#8221;

Increases in Crude Fibre content Cuddeford (1989)[citation needed], based on data obtained by Peer and Leeson (1985)[citation needed], stated - &#8220;In sprouted barley, crude fibre, a major constituent of cell walls, increases both in percentage and real terms, with the synthesis of structural carbohydrates, such as cellulose and hemicellulose&#8221;. Chung et al. (1989)[citation needed] found that the fibre content increased from 3.75% in unsprouted barley seed to 6% in 5-day sprouts.&#8221;

Crude Protein and Crude Fibre changes in Barley Sprouted over a 7-day period




Crude Protein (% of DM)

Crude Fibre (% of DM)



Original seed

12.7%

5.4%



Day 1

12.7%

5.6%



Day 2

13.0%

5.9%



Day 3

13.6%

5.8%



Day 4

13.4%

7.4%



Day 5

13.9%

9.7%



Day 6

14.0%

10.8%



Day 7

15.5%

14.1%


Source: Cuddeford (1989), based on data obtained by Peer and Leeson (1985).

Increase of protein is not due to new protein being manufactured by the germination process but by the washing out of starch and conversion to fiber -- increasing the relative proportion of protein.

Increases in Essential Fatty Acids

An increase in lipase activity has been reported in barley by MacLeod and White (1962)[citation needed], as cited by Chavan and Kadam (1989)[citation needed] . Increased lipolytic activity during germination and sprouting causes hydrolysis of triacylglycerols to glycerol and constituent fatty acids.

Increases in Vitamin content According to Chavan and Kadam (1989)[citation needed], most reports agree that sprouting treatment of cereal grains generally improves their vitamin value, especially the B-group vitamins. Certain vitamins such as &#945;-tocopherol (Vitamin-E) and &#946;-carotene (Vitamin-A precursor) are produced during the growth process (Cuddeford, 1989)[citation needed] .

According to Shipard (2005)[citation needed] - &#8220;Sprouts provide a good supply of Vitamins A, E & C plus B complex. Like enzymes, vitamins serve as bioactive catalysts to assist in the digestion and metabolism of feeds and the release of energy. They are also essential for the healing and repair of cells. However, vitamins are very perishable, and in general, the fresher the feeds eaten, the higher the vitamin content. The vitamin content of some seeds can increase by up to 20 times their original value within several days of sprouting. Mung Bean sprouts have B vitamin increases, compared to the dry seeds, of - B1 up 285%, B2 up 515%, B3 up 256%. Even soaking seeds overnight in water yields greatly increased amounts of B vitamins, as well as Vitamin C. Compared with mature plants, sprouts can yield vitamin contents 30 times higher.&#8221;

Chelation of Minerals Shipard (2005)[citation needed] claims that - &#8220;When seeds are sprouted, minerals chelate or merge with protein, in a way that increases their function.&#8221;

It is important to note that while these changes may sound impressive, the comparisons are between dormant non-sprouted seed to sprouted seed rather than comparisons of sprouts to mature vegetables. Compared to dry seeds there are very large increases in nutrients whereas compared with mature vegetables the increase is less. However, a sprout, just starting out in life, is likely to need and thus have more nutrients (percentage wise) than a mature vegetable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprouting


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

"I found a source locally that ran me around $13 for a 100lb bag of barley and alfalfa seeds and gave it a try."

While I think a good 100 pound bag of barley can be bought for that amount, world price is right at $10.50. But, you kind of threw me with that last part about alfalfa seeds. Alfalfa seed is well past a buck a pound, anywhere. I know of no situation where you could clean weed seeds out of barley and yet save alfalfa seed, mixed together. Please explain.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Fodderfeed said:


> I guess if you wanted a more accurate idea you would talk or read up on farmers who actually use fodder as apposed to a study that doesnt live it day to day. The major operations using fodder are those stricken by drought and extremely high hay prices firstly Australia, India some in Texas etc.
> 
> I live it and use it because it does save me money on my feed costs and I can say I spend less than ten minutes a day in my labor into making it so.....it works well for me!
> 
> People have been sprouting for generations for either animal use or human consumption the nutritional analysis are abundant.


It sounds as if you want me to prefer anecdotal evidence over scientific evidence. If this works, a bunch of people in a university who are smarter than me ought to be able to reproduce the results. If the only folks who can show a benefit are the ones selling the systems or those who are invested in the systems, I have to wonder if their results aren't biased.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Fodderfeed said:


> Fodder For Thought:
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprouting


Thanks for that info. It is interesting, and shows a significant benefit. Why do you think the study linked by JDolittle showed such unfavorable results in comparison? I honestly don't have enough knowledge of plant science to be able to see the shortcomings by either the pro or con sides.


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

Cesumpec I'm sorry you feel people in a University are smarter than you book smarts doesnt always make you smarter. Biased no I'm not I dont care if you buy a system just glad I have one and if someone else wants to benefit from my experience then its my job to pass it along to the little guy which big money making corporations don't care about. To that I'm done with this topic do your own research as I have it's just easier to judge when you have been on both sides of the fence.


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

As with every topic in life science will give you two sided result studies as they always have. Then you decide.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Fodderfeed,

Thanks for all of the information that you shared. Hopefully, some people here will try fodder, which I think has a lot of potential, especially for the homesteaders.:goodjob:


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

What do you use for substrate under the seeds? Anything?


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

Nothing is used just the 1020 tray.







CesumPec said:


> Thanks for that info. It is interesting, and shows a significant benefit. Why do you think the study linked by JDolittle showed such unfavorable results in comparison? I honestly don't have enough knowledge of plant science to be able to see the shortcomings by either the pro or con sides.





fishhead said:


> What do you use for substrate under the seeds? Anything?


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

Well, I've been feeding fodder to my rabbits and dairy cow as their primary "concentrate" for 2 years now. I hope to NEVER go back to regular bagged feed. 
I buy my barley and wheat from a local grower and I feel I get a good price for it. I built my own fodder system and paid less than $150 to get it up and running. I currently run 3 trays (2 cups dry grain in each) for 8 days each. The cow gets 2 and the rabbits get 1. Works great. I'm currently trying to figure out how to produce more to finish our steer on fodder too.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

Trisha in WA said:


> Well, I've been feeding fodder to my rabbits and dairy cow as their primary "concentrate" for 2 years now. I hope to NEVER go back to regular bagged feed.
> I buy my barley and wheat from a local grower and I feel I get a good price for it. I built my own fodder system and paid less than $150 to get it up and running. I currently run 3 trays (2 cups dry grain in each) for 8 days each. The cow gets 2 and the rabbits get 1. Works great. I'm currently trying to figure out how to produce more to finish our steer on fodder too.



What other inputs does the cow get besides the 2 trays of sprouted barley&wheat?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Trisha in WA said:


> Well, I've been feeding fodder to my rabbits and dairy cow as their primary "concentrate" for 2 years now. I hope to NEVER go back to regular bagged feed.
> I buy my barley and wheat from a local grower and I feel I get a good price for it. I built my own fodder system and paid less than $150 to get it up and running. I currently run 3 trays (2 cups dry grain in each) for 8 days each. The cow gets 2 and the rabbits get 1. Works great. I'm currently trying to figure out how to produce more to finish our steer on fodder too.


What a nice treat for your cow and rabbits. Fresh grass and roots must taste better than that dry alfalfa most cows and rabbits get. 
You have 24 trays and add about a pound of grain to three trays each day. After a week it has grown to about how many pounds? So, the cow is getting 2 trays, the sprouted results of 2 pounds of barley or wheat, daily. Correct?
What a nice treat for your cow and rabbits.


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

Wanda said:


> What other inputs does the cow get besides the 2 trays of sprouted barley&wheat?


She gets a pint of alfalfa pellets and a pint of beet pulp morning and night and lots of grass hay. In the summer she won't get the beet pulp. I will keep her on the alfalfa pellets for the calcium and phosphorous that I can't really get from elsewhere. If I could get good alfalfa hay, I would just give her that in place of the pellets.


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

haypoint said:


> What a nice treat for your cow and rabbits. Fresh grass and roots must taste better than that dry alfalfa most cows and rabbits get.
> You have 24 trays and add about a pound of grain to three trays each day. After a week it has grown to about how many pounds? So, the cow is getting 2 trays, the sprouted results of 2 pounds of barley or wheat, daily. Correct?
> What a nice treat for your cow and rabbits.


I haven't weighed the finished sprouts in a long time and I really don't remember what it was when I did weigh it. If I remember in the morning, I'll weigh and post back. It would be an inaccurate weight if I weighed now, as they were watered this morning and still have a fair bit of moisture from that. By morning it will have been 12 hours since their last watering, so a more accurate measure.
Yes the cow is getting the sprouted results of just under 2 lbs of mixed barley and wheat.
They LOVE their sprouts and will run you down to get them...which is pretty funny with a "herd" of rabbits LOL


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

fodderfeed said:


> nothing is used just the 1020 tray.


1020?


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

1020 trays are black gardening trays


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Thanks. 

So you just soak the seeds and spread them out and let them sprout? 

No cover to keep them moist?


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Fishhead, 

You soak the seeds, anywhere from 4 hours to overnight. Then, you spread the seed about 1/2" deep in the trays, or a little deeper. You can rinse them by hand about every four hours, or you can set up an irrigation timer and hoses to do it for you. That's it. You'll need someplace where the temps are in the 60 degree range. You'll need drainage, or tubs to catch the water. In four days, you can feed the sprouts to your geese and chickens. In seven days, cattle, sheep, goats, and horses like it.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Thanks. I did something similar for my scovies and geese one winter using jars. I would rinse the seeds 2x a day until they sprouted an inch or so.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> 11 of seeds with a water input that probably cost me $2-$3 netted me close to *280# of feed* that fed goats, chickens and rabbits.


Isn't most of that weight just* water*?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> As with every topic in life science will give you two sided result studies as they always have. Then you decide


*Honest* science gives ONE result, which anyone can* duplicate*
Sales hype and spin gives the other result


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

DIFFERENT studies give DIFFERENT results they are not always EXACT. And yes you can quote me on that! :nana:





Bearfootfarm said:


> *Honest* science gives ONE result, which anyone can* duplicate*
> Sales hype and spin gives the other result


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

The human body is what 75% water does that make us unsubstantial




Bearfootfarm said:


> Isn't most of that weight just* water*?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> The human body is what 75% water does that make us unsubstantial


As fodder, yes
Water adds nothing nutritionally, so using the weight as a "benefit" really means little



> DIFFERENT studies give DIFFERENT results they are not always EXACT


The studies that promote this idea all seem to have financial interests in that promotion

Most of the "success" storys are anecdotal

These studies paint a different picture:
http://www.grazeonline.com/fodderinterest


> hereâs the opening line of the executive summary from âReview of Hydroponic Fodder Production for Beef Cattle,â a 2003 publication from Meat & Livestock Australia:
> 
> * âProfitable use of sprouting grain as a feed source for commercial cattle production appears unlikely.â*
> 
> This report, which was the most comprehensive Graze looked at in researching the subject, stated that decades of research and farmer experience indicate that the *costs associated with fodder production are two to five times those of the original grain, and that any potential benefits provided by the green feed are not likely to overcome those costs.*





> The Meat & Livestock Australia report noted that while sprouting has been shown to change the nutritional profile of grain, it is difficult to make a statement that the changes produce better livestock performance. For instance,
> 
> *âThere is conflicting evidence that sprouting improves or reduces DM digestibility,â the report notes.*
> 
> ...


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

People have been eating it for generations its called Sprouts!


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Fodderfeed said:


> People have been eating it for generations its called Sprouts!


but have they been putting profit making weight on in the process?


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

Heres some real life people who arent selling or doing studies/trials.



http://grannysbest.blogspot.com/search/l....0(part 1) 

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.....water-resources 


http://pacapride.wordpress.com/2012/04/0....routing-trials/

http://aspenridgealpacas.com/december-9-to-december-25-from-barley-seed-to-feed/ 

http://www.zinio.com/pages/PracticalHydroponicsGreenhouses/September-Oct...

http://www.zinio.com/pages/PracticalHydroponicsGreenhouses/September-Oct...

http://plants.usda.gov/plantguide/pdf/pg_agcr.pdf 

http://www.foddersolutionsafrica.com/Data/Trials/UK Dairy Trial.pdf


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

What will happen is this: The open-minded people who are curious about fodder will try it for themselves. The "Do-nothings" will continue to bash anyone trying to share information. 

Saving money on feed, higher fertility in dairy cows, better health--none of that seems to make an impact on the close-minded. 

Fodderfeed, I appreciate the info and the link. Don't let the armchair warriors get to you.


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

The Whole Story
http://www.grazeonline.com/fodderinterest

Fodder interest sprouting all over

January 1, 2013 DAIRY, ORGANIC


But sprouting carries plenty of costs, complications and labor

Whitesville, NY&#8212;For centuries farmers around the world have been sprouting grains and feeding the green material to their stock, usually with spotty success. The 1959 edition of Frank B. Morrison&#8217;s venerable publication Feeds and Feeding referred to &#8220;clever promoters&#8221; making &#8220;extravagant claims&#8221; about the benefits of various hydroponic systems for growing green fodder from seeds. U.S. livestock nutrition experts are generally skeptical about the potential benefits of sprouted fodder, although most withhold official judgment because almost no studies have been done here due to its rarity.


Photos: A. Fay Benson. A mat of sprouted barley, ready to be tossed in a mixer or torn up for feeding.

Or at least until now it was rare. The onset of high grain and forage prices and growing interest in no-grain feeding programs has produced at least a mini-boom of interest in producing green fodder from the seeds of small grains. Articles about farmers employing fodder systems to produce greenery for everything from chickens and geese to beef steers and dairy cows are showing up in alternative agricultural outlets &#8212; often with accompanying advertising from companies selling such systems. Some farmers have reported spending a few hundred bucks to provide greens to their poultry, while others have paid six figures for commercial fodder production systems capable of producing much bigger volumes for larger dairy herds.

John Stoltzfus says he spent $5,000 on the materials to construct a sprouting room in his barn mow. Stoltzfus, who has an 80-cow, organic-certified dairy herd near Whitesville in western New York, says that daily feeding of the equivalent of 1-2 lbs. dry matter per cow of sprouted barley produced noticeable improvements in herd health and butterfat tests on both winter rations and summer pasture while leading to reduced hay consumption. He no longer feeds grain: Stoltzfus thinks the barley sprouts can help him achieve more than 40 lbs. of milk/day from his primarily Holstein herd from forages alone.

&#8220;We&#8217;re very excited about everything,&#8221; Stoltzfus told an online audience during a recent &#8220;webinar&#8221; sponsored by Cooperative Extension&#8217;s eOrganic program. &#8220;I think it&#8217;s here to stay.&#8221;

Report: costs two to five times higher

Others beg to disagree. For instance, here&#8217;s the opening line of the executive summary from &#8220;Review of Hydroponic Fodder Production for Beef Cattle,&#8221; a 2003 publication from Meat & Livestock Australia: &#8220;Profitable use of sprouting grain as a feed source for commercial cattle production appears unlikely.&#8221;

This report, which was the most comprehensive Graze looked at in researching the subject, stated that decades of research and farmer experience indicate that the costs associated with fodder production are two to five times those of the original grain, and that any potential benefits provided by the green feed are not likely to overcome those costs.

Australia is the epicenter of modern sprouted fodder production. Grain prices have traditionally been higher than in the U.S., and farmer interest in artificially producing green feed has periodically waxed and waned, with sprouting tending to be more popular during the severe, multi-year droughts common to Australia. Several Australian companies sell everything from individual pieces of equipment to complete fodder production systems.

Fodder production involves soaking grain until it is fully saturated, and then placing the seeds in trays or troughs for the sprouting and a few days of growth. Any seed can be sprouted, although small grains are by far the most popular, and barley is viewed as the very best of the small grains in terms of yield. Stoltzfus said he has also realized high yields from sprouted triticale.

The seeds are kept moist &#8212; by flooding the trays or spraying the sprouts &#8212; for a growing period that commonly lasts six or seven days. The end result is a mat of greenery that can go into a feed mixer or be torn up and hand-fed.

Feed quality, health benefits cited

Proponents say that such fodder carries nutritional benefits not available in unsprouted grains, harvested hay and even, in some cases, fresh pasture. Jerry Brunetti of Agri-Dynamics has been one of those proponents, noting that sprouting removes much of the grain starch that can lead to overly acidic conditions in the rumen. Brunetti also points to research indicating that sprouted barley has higher levels of many vitamins, minerals and sugars, and that these are in highly digestible forms within the sprouted feed.

Stoltzfus said that he&#8217;s seen the benefits, as &#8220;foot problems went away&#8221; and cell counts declined in his herd after he started feeding the sprouted barley fodder. He said butterfat tests have risen with the sprouts and declined when he stopped feeding them for a while. The benefits are noticeable both in winter and summer. He said milk urea nitrogen (MUN) levels often averaged 18-20 on pasture, but never got above 15 last summer with the fodder supplement. Stoltzfus thinks he can keep MUN at about 12 if he feeds more fodder, which he intends to do with a planned expansion of his sprouting room.

&#8220;Even though the grass is digestible, they&#8217;re utilizing it better&#8221; with the addition of a pound or two of barley fodder dry matter, Stoltzfus added. &#8220;They get more energy from fodder than from pasture.&#8221; Stoltzfus said he also sees positive health results from feeding the fodder to his calves.

Stoltzfus provided feed tests of his fodder and the barley that produced it, and fodder indeed showed reduced starch levels and increases in protein percentage and a variety of minerals compared to the grain. However, energy levels did not increase to any real degree, with NEL of the sprouted fodder shown at 0.88 and the grain at 0.87.

The Meat & Livestock Australia report noted that while sprouting has been shown to change the nutritional profile of grain, it is difficult to make a statement that the changes produce better livestock performance. For instance, &#8220;There is conflicting evidence that sprouting improves or reduces DM digestibility,&#8221; the report notes. The Australian paper reported that while some research has indicated improvement in livestock performance with the feeding of sprouted fodder, &#8220;The majority of &#8230; trials have found no advantage to feeding sprouts compared to other conventional livestock feeds.&#8221;

The Australian summary pointed to a study of sprouted oats in the 1960s, which said that while sprouting &#8220;will not increase milk production in cows that are already receiving sufficient energy &#8230; it may increase milk production in cows that are not receiving a high level of nutrients. This could explain some of the (positive) results observed on farms.&#8221; Perhaps this, too, is why some no- and low-grain livestock producers in the U.S. are reporting good results.

Sprouting reduces total dry matter

But any improvements in nutritional quality come at a price: virtually all studies of sprouting indicate a loss of dry matter compared to the original grain, the result of the respiration that takes place in the sprouting process. Morrison&#8217;s Feeds and Feeding pegged the decline at 25%. The Meat & Livestock Australia survey of the literature said the losses varied from 7% to 47%, and that the very few reports of dry matter gains could not be substantiated.

While the sprouting literature indicates a wide variety of production performance based on the efficiency of the systems studied, Stoltzfus&#8217;s 6-7 lbs. of sprouts produced per pound of barley seed appears to fall within the rough average of the research cited in the Australian report. His feed test showed the sprouts at 12.1% dry matter, compared to 87.6% DM for his barley grain. Thus, the dry matter loss in his situation may be near 10%. At the $550/ton Stoltzfus says he&#8217;s spending for organic barley these days, the losses are not minor.

Mold the biggest production issue

Meanwhile, even its advocates acknowledge that the sprouting process itself is not foolproof. &#8220;We had a lot of failures,&#8221; Stoltzfus noted. &#8220;Mold seems to be our biggest issue.&#8221;

The sprouting literature agrees that mold is a major potential problem, as it commonly reduces yields and occasionally sickens stock. Mold spores are common in most seed, and the damp environments of sprouting rooms are certainly capable of promoting their growth. Sprouting requires very clean seed that is virtually free of chaff and weed seeds. Sprouting rooms must be kept at nearly constant temperatures (around 70 degrees F.), and humidity must be kept constant, but not too high. Stoltzfus said he&#8217;s found that a small amount of air movement helps the situation.

Research has indicated that washing seeds in a chlorine solution reduces mold growth, and Stoltzfus said his problems have greatly diminished since he started employing water that is chlorinated at levels similar to those found in city water supplies.

Sprouting also requires constant labor for soaking, handling, cleaning and feeding. The Australian report stated that daily labor requirements range from two to four hours, while Stoltzfus said his system requires closer to an hour-and-a-half of daily attention. He said he uses 300 gallons of water a day, with all of it diverted to his calves.

The reported costs of sprouting vary tremendously based on the source doing the reporting and the system being employed. Stoltzfus said he has fed as much as 14 lbs. of fodder/cow a day to his milking herd, or 2 lbs. of barley at the 7 lbs. of fodder yield he cited. At $550/ton, that comes to 55 cents/cow in daily costs for the seed alone. The New York dairyman said his additional utility costs are minimal, and that he has the available labor for running the system.

Costs for setting up a system range from very little to very large. Australian companies offer packages that cost tens of thousands of dollars, and the need to build or renovate facilities to accommodate sprouting adds to the overall expense. Stoltzfus chose the do-it-yourself route, with homemade irrigation trays made from aluminum gutter material housed on painted wooden racks. Seeds are soaked in five-gallon pails. He acknowledged needing to make a lot of adjustments along the way to create a satisfactory system capable of providing a 95% germination rate.

And he isn&#8217;t done yet. Stoltzfus says he will expand the sprouting room, raise the ceilings and perhaps add a commercial dehumidifier in an effort to increase production and minimize the environmental problems that can hamper that production. He figures that one pound of dry barley seed requires one square foot of production space. Stoltzfus also intends to buy a TMR mixer, as tearing up and feeding the mats by hand once a day is not very efficient.

&#8220;It&#8217;s a lot of hand labor,&#8221; he said, adding that the cows will &#8220;sling it everywhere if you leave it in big chunks.&#8221; Stoltzfus said he&#8217;s down to feeding just 5 lbs. of fodder/cow per day because he&#8217;s added cows and started feeding some to the calves. While his stated goal is to feed 10-15 lbs. and have the herd milk at 45-50 lbs./day with a 4.2% butterfat test without feeding grain, Stoltzfus added that &#8220;we&#8217;re still trying to figure the optimum level&#8221; for fodder feeding.

What&#8217;s the bottom line?

The bottom line appears to be that the bottom line on fodder sprouts has yet to be determined. &#8220;I am skeptical of the value of sprouting for most producers because of the labor, although there may be a place for it if there is a grass-fed milk market,&#8221; offered A. Fay Benson, a Cornell University Small Dairy Support specialist who has closely followed the Stoltzfus project. Others feel that sprouting may be best suited to those in drier climates facing chronic problems with pasture production and finding reasonably priced hay. Producer testimony indicates that the humidity control problems suffered by sprouting operators in the East are far less of a problem in places with less moisture.

Kathy Soder, a pasture specialist with USDA&#8217;s Agricultural Research Service in Pennsylvania, will be working with Roman Stoltzfoos in the coming months to study the production capabilities, feed quality and economics of the system Stoltzfoos recently installed on his Lancaster County, PA, dairy. (See Organic forum, October 2012.) &#8220;We should have something by mid-year,&#8221; Soder said.




&#8592; A story about the real meaning of real food

As weather changes, so must we &#8594;




Sample issue of Graze


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

Thanks Judy, I'm not easily intimidated I'm the mother of 9!





Judy in IN said:


> What will happen is this: The open-minded people who are curious about fodder will try it for themselves. The "Do-nothings" will continue to bash anyone trying to share information.
> 
> Saving money on feed, higher fertility in dairy cows, better health--none of that seems to make an impact on the close-minded.
> 
> Fodderfeed, I appreciate the info and the link. Don't let the armchair warriors get to you.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> The "Do-nothings" will continue to bash anyone *trying to share information*.
> 
> Saving money on feed, higher fertility in dairy cows, better health--none of that seems to make an impact on the* close-minded. *


So what I posted isn't "information" because it doesn't agree with someone else?
All the things you named were the things the studies I showed found were *not true*



> Sample issue of Graze
> 
> *Judy in IN** likes this.*


LOL 
You* LIKE* it now?

It's the same link* I* posted


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Sorry, I tend to skim over your posts. Want me to go back and find it and like YOUR post?

On the bright side, I haven't put you on ignore.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Judy in IN said:


> What will happen is this: The open-minded people who are curious about fodder will try it for themselves. The "Do-nothings" will continue to bash anyone trying to share information.
> 
> Saving money on feed, higher fertility in dairy cows, better health--none of that seems to make an impact on the close-minded.
> 
> Fodderfeed, I appreciate the info and the link. Don't let the armchair warriors get to you.


So a grain farmer who knows what happens to his grain when it sprouts, is close minded, and a do nothing? lol 

When you buy barley, soak it and sprout it, and it loses weight in real terms, how are you saving money? 

One more time. All together now: When grain sprouts, it loses weight. When grain sprouts, it loses weight. When grain sprouts it loses weight. When grain sprouts it....

Seriously, it does.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Sorry, I tend to skim over your posts. Want me to go back and find it and like YOUR post?
> 
> On the bright side, I haven't put you on ignore.


No, but it would be nice if you'd not be as "close minded" as you accused others of being, when you didn't even bother to* read the information.*

As to putting me on ignore, I really don't care one way or the other.
It won't change the truth of what I posted
In fact, much of it is right there in the post you did "like" :shrug:


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## PistolPackinMom (Oct 20, 2012)

farmerDale said:


> So a grain farmer who knows what happens to his grain when it sprouts, is close minded, and a do nothing? lol
> 
> When you buy barley, soak it and sprout it, and it loses weight in real terms, how are you saving money?
> 
> ...


Okay, I have an honest question. It loses weight, but doesn't it increase in volume? (Even though it's mostly water, I don't see that being non-beneficial to the animal.)

Help me understand.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

When any grain sprouts, the food value increases. The digestibility increases, and the enzyme level goes up. From what I recall, a pig only digests about 40% of dry feed. 

It would be a good way to get away from GMO corn, if you are concerned about that. 

In cattle, feeding fodder results in the rumen being less acidic. 
I don't care if the seed loses weight, as long as it is nutritious and better absorbed. 

At any good salad bar at the restaurant you'll find Alfalfa sprouts. They promote them as being really good for us. This is no different, IMO.

Too many people are trying this with great results for me to believe it won't work.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> No, but it would be nice if you'd not be as "close minded" as you accused others of being, when you didn't even bother to* read the information.*
> 
> As to putting me on ignore, I really don't care one way or the other.
> It won't change the truth of what I posted
> In fact, much of it is right there in the post you did "like" :shrug:


I have been reading this same information on the cow forum. I even said on the cow forum that taking fodder and drying it down to compare it to dry grain is like pounding a square peg into a round hole. You are destroying the very things that give fodder it's advantage. 

One thing that I notice is the pro fodder people are the ones who have actually tried it. None of the nay-Sayers here have tried it.


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## solidwoods (Dec 23, 2005)

Here are a couple of considerations

#1. If you feed nutrients to a seed to make a sprout- does the sprout then contain some of the nutrients? 

#2 Look at your grain fed animals poop.
Does it contain undigested grains?
If it does then wouldn't sprouted grains digest more consistently and allow the animal to absorb more of what was in the grain ?
jim

Ever wonder why Zymurgists sprout grains, dry them , then make beer?


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

solidwoods said:


> Here are a couple of considerations
> 
> #1. If you feed nutrients to a seed to make a sprout- does the sprout then contain some of the nutrients?
> 
> ...


I'm with you on the #2 and believe on a common sense basis that the digestibility and availability of nutrients ought to be better when sprouted. I don't understand why the scientists can't document it, but it might be because my common sense is wrong. 

For #1, all the systems I've seen do not involve feeding any sorts of fertilizers, major or micro nutrients, or anything else but water to the seed/sprouts. The sprouts MIGHT get something of value from the minerals in the water, but once again, I would like to see that documented with science. 

Ag universities have been doing feed value studies for decades, calculating digestibility, availability, weight gain, milk production, and all sorts of other stuff probably including the number of curls in a piggies tail. This isn't so difficult as proving man caused climate change; it is fairly basic. If the studies don't show an advantage, even when I want to find the advantage, then there probably isn't an advantage.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Honest science and universities....hmmm, I'm *married *to a professor. He will be the first to tell you that his job is to raise money for the university and publish papers. Now, to publish papers, you need grant money. WHERE do you get grant money? It would *not* be from someone without a vested interest. Sounds very political, doesn't it? It sure is....

I know several Phds that are first-rate when it comes to writing grant applications or schmoozing business leaders, but they are a long way from being omnipotent. In fact, if they get out of their area of expertise, (or rut, as my husband would say) they seem to be best at asking questions. 

I used to revere Phds, but they put their pants on one leg at a time, and sometimes they need help doing that!


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

PistolPackinMom said:


> Okay, I have an honest question. It loses weight, but doesn't it increase in volume? (Even though it's mostly water, I don't see that being non-beneficial to the animal.)
> 
> Help me understand.


It decreases in dry weight. That is, in the absence of inputs, IE nutrients to feed the sprouts, energy is used in the germination process. Energy that can not be regained. I am not disputing the fact tat the animals gobble it up! I am disputing the fact that you take a bushel of barley, (48 pounds), and make 300 pounds of fodder, as though it in 6 or 7 days of soaking in water, the seeds magically multiply in weight. The added weight is water. Yes, it increases in volume. But to say it is more economical to feed sprouted seeds, vs. whole or rolled seeds, is simply really really strange math.

If you take a barley kernel, weigh it at 14% moisture content, and then sprout it, dry it back to 14% moisture, it would have less weight than before germination. I have had barley sit through rains in the field, and end up weighing as little as 40 pounds per bushel of volume, vs. the 48 lb. standard. In that case, almost 20% of the weight was lost, and I lost a lot of money due to weight loss, and the fact feed buyers did not want it.

Again, sure the animals love the sprouted grains. But you are not making economical feed: you are reducing its weight, adding water, and still need hay and other feed anyway. You can not just feed wet sprouts alone. You still need to feed them other things. 

Fodder is ADDING a process, a process that could be skipped by just feeding
The un-sprouted grain along with hay. In the thread in the cow forum, a Canadian "farmer" was showing how he fed his animals, and heated a green house. All fine and good. Until you search further, and read between the lines, and check the math...

It is fine if folks want to try this, it is just grossly over-rated, and is not near as efficient as many seem to think. Sorry about the long response, but it is kind of hard to explain, if you have no experience sprouting grains...:run:

Cheers

Dale


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Judy in IN said:


> Honest science and universities....hmmm, I'm *married *to a professor. He will be the first to tell you that his job is to raise money for the university and publish papers. Now, to publish papers, you need grant money. WHERE do you get grant money? It would *not* be from someone without a vested interest. Sounds very political, doesn't it? It sure is....
> 
> I know several Phds that are first-rate when it comes to writing grant applications or schmoozing business leaders, but they are a long way from being omnipotent. In fact, if they get out of their area of expertise, (or rut, as my husband would say) they seem to be best at asking questions.
> 
> I used to revere Phds, but they put their pants on one leg at a time, and sometimes they need help doing that!


I agree completely, Judy. if the ag university studies showed success with fodder systems and the studies were all paid for by the fodder system industry, I would be VERY cautious. however, in this case, i don't see an obvious follow-the-money bias against fodder. I just don't believe that the hay growing industry is trying to torpedo fodder.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> You are destroying the very things that give* fodder* it's advantage.
> 
> One thing that I notice is the *pro fodder people are the ones who have actually tried it.* None of the nay-Sayers here have tried it.


"Fodder" is simply *any food* you bring to an animal.
It's not some magical substance:



> fodÂ·der
> /&#712;fÃ¤d&#601;r/
> 
> Noun
> Food, esp. dried hay or feed, for cattle and other livestock.


The main "pro fodder" people here *sell* the equipment.
Most of those links go to what amounts to a sales pitch
The "Fodder Forum" only has 16 members, counting the two who run it

The same study you "liked" so well before was the one that said it's *no better* than just feeding them the grain.

Commercial farmers aren't stupid, and if it were *truly *that much better, the majority would be doing it now


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

I don't sell any equipment or seed or anything for that matter. I have been feeding sprouted wheat and barley for over a year and I really like it. I also didn't buy a commercial set up. We have a cheep home built thing that works great for us.

Farmer Dale, you have nothing to lose by letting people go about their business sprouting and feeding sprouted grains to their livestock. Why are you so worked up about it?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Farmer Dale, you have nothing to lose by letting people go about their business sprouting and feeding sprouted grains to their livestock. Why are you so worked up about it?


Everyone is free to do anything they like.
But to make false, misleading claims about it, and to ignore anything that states otherwise is merely foolish.

If it's all that great it will stand on it's own merits, and people should welcome questions, and be able to answer them with data rather than anecdotes


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Everyone is free to do anything they like.
> But to make false, misleading claims about it, and to ignore anything that states otherwise is merely foolish.
> 
> If it's all that great it will stand on it's own merits, and people should welcome questions, and be able to answer them with data rather than anecdotes


Well said. My purpose in this and the couple of other fodder system threads was to get good info. I had seen the sales lit and vids and thought it was a great idea. I admit to being a novice and being easily fooled at times. 

Anecdotal farmer data is fine when something is really new and different. But spouted fodder is as old as dirt. I hoped I could find something magical and wonderful in sprout fodder but I haven't other than it being a tasty treat the critters generally love. 

Had I not seen the negative data, at a minimum I would have wasted valuable time setting up a DIY system (which I may still do very small scale for treats). I would hate to see someone setting up a farm scale system, or paying for a fancy commercial system, when they are getting little value for their efforts. 

IMO, this is HT at its highest value - a respectful discussion of different ideas to help those of us who need and want to learn from others with more knowledge and experience.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Trisha in WA said:


> Farmer Dale, you have nothing to lose by letting people go about their business sprouting and feeding sprouted grains to their livestock. Why are you so worked up about it?


Worked up? Not at all. I specifically said it is fine to do, the animals like it etc., but I grow grain for a living. I know what happens to grain when subjected to moisture. I am simply sharing my experiences. People can do whatever they want. I just feel facts are important in making decisions. Someone in another thread was ready to run out and spend 3 of 4 grand on a system to then buy grain, add water, and think they are gaining something, because someone on the internet said it multiplies in weight by seven times. I am simply trying to get people to look at the available information, and make a decision not soley based on a fodder system builders idea of magical feed gains.

I am not worked up. I really do just want to help. Fodder should be looked at as the tasty treat it is, not as a supposed magical and all encompassing, money saving feed. It just is not what some praise it as.


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

The only nutrients my seeds get is water.




solidwoods said:


> Here are a couple of considerations
> 
> #1. If you feed nutrients to a seed to make a sprout- does the sprout then contain some of the nutrients?
> 
> ...


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

Apparently no one is actually reading the provided links. Dry/wet isnt the point how much water isnt the point the point is I would rather given my cow proven and scientifically nutritious 6 day grown wheat grass to eat than corn for example. And no thats not all its feed before someone starts that one! I imagine if you sell hay you wouldnt be for fodder.


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

Sorry but the only thing lacking in your responses is personal experience with fodder. Yes it is the same link you posted with one exception the whole story was posted not just the sentences quoting the negatives.




Bearfootfarm said:


> So what I posted isn't "information" because it doesn't agree with someone else?
> All the things you named were the things the studies I showed found were *not true*
> 
> 
> ...


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

I hear no one saying no no no stop dont let them cows out to pasture in the fresh spring fields with all the fresh greens sprouting............


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I am interested in fodder because it would provide fresh greens for my horses. I have to feed dry alfalfa 6 months of the year sometimes more depending on how much rain we get. I am going to try and understand what the different arguments are.

Against.

Feeding barley seed is more cost effective because you don't spend the extra time and money to sprout it.

For.

The extra time and money provides a more digestible food therefore the animals get better nutrition from the same seed.


For me I need to compare it to the cost of the alfalfa I am feeding. I spend 160.00 a ton for alfalfa. Cheaper that what many are paying because I always buy from the same farm.


So if I feed 10 pounds per day of alfalfa to my horse it would cost me 1.60 per horse for alfalfa.

If I feed barley sprouted, I would use 2 pounds of seed to get that 10 pounds (Please advise if others have a better number) So if I use the price of 35.00 per 50 pounds it costs me 70 cents a pound or 1.40 for the costs of seed that replaces the alfalfa. Add in water and heat and the cost is about the same. I am not counting my labor because i did not count the labor that it cost me to get and stack my alfalfa or the gas to trailer it.

If I look at it that way I am breaking even on cost of feed. I however think that I am providing my horses with a food that takes them longer to eat, very important because horses are healthier and less bored when they spread their feeding over time. I don't know the price of barley from a local mill so that price could be way low or high but that i could order online a get shipped for that price. So how does my thinking on the subject go wrong. What am I not considering? This is not a commercial operation. I am feeding 3 horses( a quarter horse and 2 draft crosses) that are outside 12 months of the year and know what 20 below feels like.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

painterswife said:


> I am interested in fodder because it would provide fresh greens for my horses. I have to feed dry alfalfa 6 months of the year sometimes more depending on how much rain we get. I am going to try and understand what the different arguments are.
> 
> Against.
> 
> ...


 You have to compare on a dry matter basis. It takes a lot more pounds of sprouted material to equal the alfalfa. Your comparison is like counting calories with a scale.


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

Nutrition wise when you compare dry to sprouted you get way more nutrition in sprouted. You can also compare dry wheat to sprouted nutrionally, dry barley to sprouted barley nutritionally, etc etc etc


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Fodderfeed said:


> Nutrition wise when you compare dry to sprouted you get way more nutrition in sprouted. You can also compare dry wheat to sprouted nutrionally, dry barley to sprouted barley nutritionally, etc etc etc


What about the reduced Net Energy content due to the loss of starches?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

http://www.foddersolutions.net/roi-calculator

FOUND THIS CALCULATOR


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

Fodderfeed said:


> Nutrition wise when you compare dry to sprouted you get way more nutrition in sprouted. You can also compare dry wheat to sprouted nutrionally, dry barley to sprouted barley nutritionally, etc etc etc



Just because you say there is more nutrition does not make it a fact. You can not show me any data that shows the value an animal receives from unsprouted grain as apposed to sprouted. If it makes you and your animals feel better sprout to your hearts content. If you want to come hear and promote something you are selling that is another kettle of fish.If you push the economic part to boost sales be prepared to have the proof. If it is economically superior it will not take a lot of effort to sell your system. Perceived value is a weak sales point as far as I am concerned.


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

I didnt start this thread or promote it. But I will give my opinon whether you like it or not and the nutrional analysis of both grain and sprouted is available all over for years now should you wish to look it up yourself.




Wanda said:


> Just because you say there is more nutrition does not make it a fact. You can not show me any data that shows the value an animal receives from unsprouted grain as apposed to sprouted. If it makes you and your animals feel better sprout to your hearts content. If you want to come hear and promote something you are selling that is another kettle of fish.If you push the economic part to boost sales be prepared to have the proof. If it is economically superior it will not take a lot of effort to sell your system. Perceived value is a weak sales point as far as I am concerned.


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

Look it up then come back and post it Im not doing everyones research for them! 





Lazy J said:


> What about the reduced Net Energy content due to the loss of starches?


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## solidwoods (Dec 23, 2005)

There is also a difference in sprouting a seed and growing a seed.
Sprout it in water only v.s. grow it with nutrient filled water.
Myself I would grow the seed in nutrient filled water. 
That's what silage is. Seeds grown in nutrient filled soil then fed to the animal. With silage we get more plant and more nutrients.
jim


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Sorry but the only thing lacking in your responses is personal experience with fodder. *Yes it is the same link* you posted with one exception *the whole story* was posted not just the sentences quoting *the negatives*.


If I hadn't pointed out those negatives, they wouldn't have been brought up at all.
Is there anything false or misleading about it?

If you're TRULY interested in "the *whole* story", you'd present the* raw data only*


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I would use 2 pounds of seed to get *that 10 pounds*


8 lbs of that is *water*


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

Then my animals need to be put in the Guiness Book of World Records for thriving for two years on water!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Then my animals need to be put in the Guiness Book of World Records for *thriving for two years on water!*


No one said they couldn't live on it.
Reality is it's just not BETTER nor CHEAPER than any other ways.

And you already said it's not all they eat, so even that claim is misleading


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

Its all my rabbits, chickens, pigs eat but for obvious reasons the goats and cow still have to have hay so dont twist my words.





Bearfootfarm said:


> No one said they couldn't live on it.
> Reality is it's just not BETTER nor CHEAPER than any other ways.
> 
> And you already said it's not all they eat, so even that claim is misleading


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> 8 lbs of that is *water*


I have just found that for every pound of alfalfa I feed I could replace it with .57 pounds of barley seed.


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

Personally I use my sprouted grain as a grain replacement, not a hay replacement. The large animals especially need that dry roughage in order to keep their digestion system working properly. Think of what your horses manure looks like when they go out all day on spring grass. Gets pretty squirty. That's not good. They need that roughage. Cows need the long stem fiber.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Trisha in WA said:


> Personally I use my sprouted grain as a grain replacement, not a hay replacement. The large animals especially need that dry roughage in order to keep their digestion system working properly. Think of what your horses manure looks like when they go out all day on spring grass. Gets pretty squirty. That's not good. They need that roughage. Cows need the long stem fiber.


I would only be replacing part of my hay with fodder. My horses get at least 20 pounds of hay per day. I don't feed any grain right now unless it is a treat or it is 30 below for several days.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Trisha in WA said:


> Personally I use my sprouted grain as a grain replacement, not a hay replacement. The large animals especially need that dry roughage in order to keep their digestion system working properly. Think of what your horses manure looks like when they go out all day on spring grass. Gets pretty squirty. That's not good. They need that roughage. Cows need the long stem fiber.


as a grain replacement, it makes a lot of sense to me, especially for horses which don't need grain. These days few horses need grain to keep their weight and energy up. Long gone are the days when most horses worked all day and needed grain energy to keep them strong. 

For those that are claiming it is a hay or good pasture replacement, that doesn't appear to be a smart, healthy alternative.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

solidwoods said:


> There is also a difference in sprouting a seed and growing a seed.
> Sprout it in water only v.s. grow it with nutrient filled water.
> Myself I would grow the seed in nutrient filled water.
> That's what silage is. Seeds grown in nutrient filled soil then fed to the animal. With silage we get more plant and more nutrients.
> jim


Jim, I'm not positive about this so maybe one of the plant science folks will chime in and verify. The sprouts are not old enough to photosynthesize to any appreciable amount, often don't have sun in a fodder system even if they were old enough, so they aren't really synthesizing any appreciable amount of nutrients in the first 7 days. So the costs of fertilizing the sprouts is probably just another cost making the fodder system even more economically disadvantaged. 

the sprouts MIGHT soak up some nutrients as they soak up the water, but you could put out a free choice mineral mix as a more efficient, cost effective way of feeding nutrients to your livestock.


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## bigredfeather (Apr 22, 2011)

farmerDale said:


> It decreases in dry weight. That is, in the absence of inputs, IE nutrients to feed the sprouts, energy is used in the germination process. Energy that can not be regained. I am not disputing the fact tat the animals gobble it up! I am disputing the fact that you take a bushel of barley, (48 pounds), and make 300 pounds of fodder, as though it in 6 or 7 days of soaking in water, the seeds magically multiply in weight. The added weight is water. Yes, it increases in volume. But to say it is more economical to feed sprouted seeds, vs. whole or rolled seeds, is simply really really strange math.


One of the systems I looked at did use nutrients in the water. The seed will lose DM through the soaking and germination stage, but on day 5, the roots begin to pick-up some of the nutrients and the plant begins to produce some new weight on it's own (as long as there is enough light for photosynthesis). The particular system was an 8 eight day cycle, so the fodder was regaining weight on days 5-8.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> The particular system was an 8 eight day cycle, so the fodder was *regaining weight* on days 5-8.


Wouldnt about one third of that weight be Cellulose?

It's high in roughage, but very low in energy, and is only digested by ruminants


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Just thinking out loud here....The dairy farmer cited in the thread used the used water from his fodder growing to give to his calves. Wouldn't they get the washed-away starches in the water, then?

Just got the mail, and my fodder book from CA is in there. I'll see you guys later, eh?


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

cesumpec said:


> jim, i'm not positive about this so maybe one of the plant science folks will chime in and verify. The sprouts are not old enough to photosynthesize to any appreciable amount, often don't have sun in a fodder system even if they were old enough, so they aren't really synthesizing any appreciable amount of nutrients in the first 7 days. So the costs of fertilizing the sprouts is probably just another cost making the fodder system even more economically disadvantaged.
> 
> The sprouts might soak up some nutrients as they soak up the water, but you could put out a free choice mineral mix as a more efficient, cost effective way of feeding nutrients to your livestock.



bang on!!!


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

CesumPec said:


> For those that are claiming it is a hay or good pasture replacement, that doesn't appear to be a smart, healthy alternative.


I totally agree.
It can be used to supplement poor pasture along with good quality hay, but of course that's not idea. Ideal is good quality pasture.

I also agree that horses don't need grain unless they are working horses. I do happen to live in an area where horses are used to work cattle, but otherwise, good pasture and good hay are enough to maintain a healthy horse. My horses don't even care for the sprouts actually. Silly girls.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Wouldn't they get the washed-away starches in the water, then?


They aren't washed away
They are converted Chemically to sugars:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_bean_sprouts_contain_starch



> During sprouting much of the starch is broken down into simple sugars such as glucose and sucrose by the action of the enzyme amylase


More nutrition data:
http://nutritiondiva.quickanddirtytips.com/sprouted-grains.aspx



> *Scientists Chavan and Kadam analyzed a lot of nutritional data on sprouts in a review article that was published in that old page-turner, Critical Review of Food Science and Nutrition. While they acknowledged that sprouting did increase B-vitamins and certain amino acids and increased digestibility, they ultimately conclude that &#8220;*
> 
> *the magnitude of the nutritional improvement&#8230;is not large enough to account for in feeding experiments with higher animals.&#8221;*
> 
> ...




*Nutrition Improvement of Cereals by Sprouting (journal article)

Cereal Sprouts: Composition, nutritive value, food applications (journal article)
*


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

farmerDale said:


> But to say it is more economical to feed sprouted seeds, vs. whole or rolled seeds, is simply really really strange math.
> 
> 
> Fodder is ADDING a process, a process that could be skipped by just feeding
> ...



What good is it if half the unsprouted grain, goes through the animal whole without being digested or taken up as nutrients? Maybe you need to factor that into the economics of it too? 

The animal uses 100 percent of the sprouted grain, vs 50 percent of the unsprouted grain?


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Shygal said:


> What good is it if half the unsprouted grain, goes through the animal whole without being digested or taken up as nutrients? Maybe you need to factor that into the economics of it too?
> 
> The animal uses 100 percent of the sprouted grain, vs 50 percent of the unsprouted grain?


Well, different animals utilize the grain differently, so the grain I feed is processed accordingly. Chickens and sheep are two examples of animals who do extremely well on whole grains, and have little problems digesting them. Some other critters, cows, pigs, horses, do better with a light rolling to aid in more full digestion. So because of this, I never see undigested grain pass through our animals. If grain is passing through, that is a hint to roll it, or mill it in some way, IMO. 

Livestock thrive regardless, when their dietary needs are being met. Feed testing is a matter of course for us. We then know how much to feed, it is not a guess, it is scientific. So many factors to consider. Farming is great, isn't it?


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

Shygal said:


> What good is it if half the unsprouted grain, goes through the animal whole without being digested or taken up as nutrients? Maybe you need to factor that into the economics of it too?
> 
> The animal uses 100 percent of the sprouted grain, vs 50 percent of the unsprouted grain?



I would think 100% usage is next to imposable. If you can prove this in practice you will become very wealthy!


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Fodderfeed said:


> I hear no one saying no no no stop dont let them cows out to pasture in the fresh spring fields with all the fresh greens sprouting............


Fodder feed,

I can feed all of my animals on fodder except the dogs. Are you feeding rabbits to yours? This would be a great way to feed raw, I believe. I'm thinking 1 rabbit per dog per day? (100 lb dog)


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

I've been offering fodder to my poultry for about 2 weeks now. My geese and chickens really go for it! My feed consumpton has dropped to less than 1/2 of the former amount. 

I put some out in the heifer's feeder today. It was gone tonight.


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

I have to watch it the cats, dogs, and kids like it to! hahha


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## joebill (Mar 2, 2013)

I'd be interested, now that the battle seems to be waning, if anyone has experience or suggestions about sprouting grains in hot weather and low humidity. 

I understand that the major enemy here is mold, and that mold loves heat. It's just that I have a problem visualizing mold in this location, at least other than during monsoon season. We are in the desert Southwest, and about the only mold I have ever seen growing around here was in a dead freezer that didn't get cleaned out.

I'm reluctant to provide an air conditioned space for sprouting, since it would involve a lot of expense and time. Are there some other options than barley that would do better in the heat? Any info would be helpfull.....Thanks......Joe


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

joebill said:


> I'd be interested, now that the battle seems to be waning, if anyone has experience or suggestions about sprouting grains in hot weather and low humidity.


They are using fodder systems in the Aussie outback, so it can be done in hot, dry areas.


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## joebill (Mar 2, 2013)

Good point. I'd be interested in hearing any other comments.....Thanks............Joe


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> if anyone has experience or suggestions about sprouting grains in hot weather


Most grains are grown in hot weather anyway.
Keeping them at the *right *moisture level is going to keep them cool enough, through evaporation


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

I agree. It's about humidity more so than heat. Keep the area well ventilated and you should be fine. If you need to, you can put a small fan on the sprouts for added air flow, but they don't need to be in a cool place. Do make sure to water/rinse them at least twice a day though.
I know that sounds contrary, but it's a matter of doing a little of this and a little of that until you get it just right for you particular set up and location.


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## joebill (Mar 2, 2013)

Thanks, folks! I'm encouraged. I did too much reading while waiting until my regular monthly trip to Tucson, when I will pick up the seeds. I didn't read any mold stories from hot DRY country, but was getting a bit worried that I was wasting my time.....Joe


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

A capfull of bleach added to your presoak will help eliminate mold and also not letting them grow past 6/7 days I mark my trays with post it as I forget! lol I like sprouting wheat and corn its the easiest and most readily available. No ac is needed a fan helps out.

Good luck 
Happy Sprouting!







joebill said:


> I'd be interested, now that the battle seems to be waning, if anyone has experience or suggestions about sprouting grains in hot weather and low humidity.
> 
> I understand that the major enemy here is mold, and that mold loves heat. It's just that I have a problem visualizing mold in this location, at least other than during monsoon season. We are in the desert Southwest, and about the only mold I have ever seen growing around here was in a dead freezer that didn't get cleaned out.
> 
> I'm reluctant to provide an air conditioned space for sprouting, since it would involve a lot of expense and time. Are there some other options than barley that would do better in the heat? Any info would be helpfull.....Thanks......Joe


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I have been reading through all this information. Thank you to those that have posted the links - pro and con. I have learned a lot. Mostly - to read all the links.

There are two points expressed that I found to be most interesting-
1. That most people come from the assumption that cattle need to be fed a certain amount (weight) of feed per day. Which is why they keep touting that "it weighs less, it weighs less, it weighs less" - mantra. If you believe that a cow, sheep, horse, chicken needs 5 lbs of feed a day, then that's the question you will have about feeding sprouted grains. I think if the nutrients are more easily absorbed and used by an animal then perhaps they can get by with less concentrates. Concentrates are about getting an amount of nutrients into an animal. If the nutrients are more available a different way, it might follow that you would need less weight into the animal.

2. The cost. If you have a source for cheap hay and cheap grain in unlimited supplies, and the equipment to easily produce/haul/store either as well as the body health to physically do it, then perhaps it isn't cost effective for you. But if you had a summer's drought and there was/is no hay to be produced/purchased and land is expensive and you don't have a place to store a large amount of feed - the perhaps the cost of sprouting grain isn't so limiting for you.

The people that are for fodder systems here seem to be those with smaller acreages and less animals. Those opposing seem to be those with bigger parcels of land, and more equipment. I think we're aguring about oranges and apples. 

Personally, we are looking for something more reliable than hay production. We will still produce hay, but what about those years when the hay isn't as good- the amounts are much less than we need? It seems provident/self-reliant to look into other ways to produce feed. Seed can be stored fairly easily. I don't need to produce sprouts in the summer- we have grass then. I only need something to offset the years when hay doesn't go well. And perhaps, one day, these old bodies can take a break from the manual labor of all that hay.


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## Fire-Man (Apr 30, 2005)

I been growing fodder on a small scale mainly since the latter part of last summer and the animals love it. To simplify my set-up I bought this rack some weeks back and have been using it for my fodder set-up. It is setup in a unheated camper that I am not using, its off-grid but is automatic watering through solar. Its working and has more room to expand. Since this picture was taken I started adding more seed per tray to get a thicker mat.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Fire-man - what are you using for trays? You don't provide any light? How about liquid fertilizer. I just can't wrap my head around how to get the sprouts to grow that big without something to feed them with. Do you recirculate the water? Are you watering the top and it drains down to the bottom tray, or do you spray water on all the trays and it drips down? I know- it's a lot of questions, but DH has to thoroughly understand something before he'll take a step.


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## Fire-Man (Apr 30, 2005)

Callieslamb said:


> Fire-man - what are you using for trays? You don't provide any light? How about liquid fertilizer. I just can't wrap my head around how to get the sprouts to grow that big without something to feed them with. Do you recirculate the water? Are you watering the top and it drains down to the bottom tray, or do you spray water on all the trays and it drips down? I know- it's a lot of questions, but DH has to thoroughly understand something before he'll take a step.


The trays are what you see, aluminum trays that are used in this rack-----which is used in a commercial kitchen. I bought this rack and trays at a Auction which was selling used commercial cooking equipment. I have about 10 more trays than you see. I had to modify the trays with drain holes and a piece to keep the seeds out the drain. I was almost ashamed to show this picture because This is the worse looking fodder I have grown. I did not put enough seeds in the tray so it is thin. Normanally in my other Manual set-up I was using it is real thick, but it did get about 2" taller than in the picture before I started feeding it to the animals. Its alot thicker looking now. 

Only Water, the water is pumped to the top tray only. The trays are at a angle and the water drains into the tray below it until it gets to the bottom tray, then it drains into the tote below and recirculates. It is a slow flow so the pump runs about 30 minutes. I change the water every 2 days. The only light is what comes through the windows during the day.

I started out with the black seed trays that have the clear dome top sitting on a metal table under my open shed. I soaked my seeds for 2 days washing them usually 3 times during that time. I spread the seeds into the trays---the trays had little drain holes. I would put the clear top on and a little weight to keep the wind from blowing the top away. I would remove the tops and lightly spray the seeds about 3 times a day, once they sprouted decent I left the clear top off. When the fodder got big enough to feed I would take it to the animals and wash the tray and reseed. You need to decide how many trays you want to feed to your animals per day, then seed that many trays each day then in a week or so you will have it going where you(example) feed 2 trays and reseed 2 trays per day. To me its best to either weigh the dry seeds or measure them ((if your trays are the same size)) so you can adjust and get the same amount in each tray. If I am going to reseed 2 trays per day I have seeds soaking in 2 different containers so I can pour all its contents into each tray. That way all my trays have the exact amount in them. These trays I have the picture of only had 2lb of seed which was not enough. I am putting 3lb in them now and the fodder looks better and fuller. The plastic trays I started out with I used 1 1/2 lb of seed(dry weight) in eash tray and it worked out good for me. If you got questions just ask. There are alot of people on here that use/grow fodder and can help in answering your questions. I will not get into a debate over if its better than seed or not, I grow it because My animals Love It and I like keeping them happy--LOL.


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

Good job Fire-Man! :rock:


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Fire-man
Thanks for that explanation. No matter how many videos watched or articles read..some of those basic things weren't covered. So you pump the water only to the top tray. That's easy. We're going to try this for a while. Not during the summer since they have plenty of grass that we paid a lot of money to get growing for them. But for winter...and especially early spring. I hope that feeding sprouts with hay will 

1. reduce hay
2. get them ready to go to pasture without having to graduate them to the grass
3. grow some great fleeces!


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## ErikaMay (Feb 28, 2013)

My pig loves this stuff, but I'm not convinced its worth it time. I don't have a space set up where I can just turn on a water timer, so I am constantly washing trays in my kitchen...and now that the window is too warm they are hogging the counter!

Correct me if im wrong: the white fuzzies on the roots is white mold, not the roots themselves? If so, why do I keep getting that stuff when I bleach my seeds, rinse twice a day with fresh water and then keep the seeds between 55-65?


Interesting experiment: the neighbors chickens were thought to be laid out. 10 chickens making 2 eggs a day. They get the egg layer, scratch, oyster shells, ect. Two eggs from 10 chickens. I started feeding them fodder and the eggs jumped up to 4-6 eggs a day! Then I ran out of fodder (had a mold problem develop) and the egg making dropped back down to 2 or 0 a day. gave then the fodder again and their production came back up. 

I AM thinking of trying it few a few weeks again before breeding the pig. Sort of like flushing sheep i would be curious to see if her litter #'s goes up.


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## Fire-Man (Apr 30, 2005)

Callieslamb

This is a updated picture showing a little more seed in the trays. The last picture is sprouted sunflower seeds just getting started . Also if you look at the sunflower seed tray to the left you will be able to see the pvc pipe that the water comes out of----this is the top tray.


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## solidwoods (Dec 23, 2005)

Nice rig Fireman
I'm considering sprouting for my fish/chickens/horse.
I'm going to split a 10' long 6" pvc pipe (freebie) in half set it on a small incline and use a fountain pump on a timer to pump the water back to the top.. Harvest from the lower end and slide it down the pipe like carpet. Re-seed at the high end.
jim


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## Fire-Man (Apr 30, 2005)

solidwoods said:


> Nice rig Fireman
> I'm considering sprouting for my fish/chickens/horse.
> I'm going to split a 10' long 6" pvc pipe (freebie) in half set it on a small incline and use a fountain pump on a timer to pump the water back to the top.. Harvest from the lower end and slide it down the pipe like carpet. Re-seed at the high end.
> jim


Thanks.

Have you already tried the 6" split pipe? I was thinking that only the seeds right in the bottom of the pipe will be getting wet being the pipe is round unless you are going to set it up to flood and drain. If you do this let us know how it works out.


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## solidwoods (Dec 23, 2005)

Fire-Man said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Have you already tried the 6" split pipe? I was thinking that only the seeds right in the bottom of the pipe will be getting wet being the pipe is round unless you are going to set it up to flood and drain. If you do this let us know how it works out.


Howdy
No I haven't tried 6" pipe yet. But you may have a good point about only what is in the bottom of the tube will be wet and germinate. So maybe I'll try 4" pipe first. I can always make more rows of pipe. Plus 4" drain pipe is real cheap and I get 2 rows per pipe so it doesn't take much for the average farm.
jim


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## Fire-Man (Apr 30, 2005)

solidwoods said:


> Howdy
> No I haven't tried 6" pipe yet. But you may have a good point about only what is in the bottom of the tube will be wet and germinate. So maybe I'll try 4" pipe first. I can always make more rows of pipe. Plus 4" drain pipe is real cheap and I get 2 rows per pipe so it doesn't take much for the average farm.
> jim


Jim why don't you just use gutters, they are not a lot more than the pipe, and the bottom will be flat so more seed will germinate?


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## solidwoods (Dec 23, 2005)

I happened to get a bunch of many sizes of round for free from a friend that scraps.
He cleans out a place and has to pay to dump items like plastics because they have no scrap yard value.
And yes I do a bunch of my wood works and sawmilling to help back.
I do any thing to help friends (same as him)
jim


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Looks great, Fireman!!!


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

Farmtek sells the white channels if you want to go that route.


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## bigredfeather (Apr 22, 2011)

bigredfeather said:


> I will be picking up my Crop King fodder system on Friday. I actually talked them into creating a smaller "Homestead" version. It still has (24) trays, but it is only 6' long instead of 13'. It will produce 3 trays per day @ about 35 pounds per tray or 105 pounds per day. It is not on the market yet, so they are asking me to try it out and give them some feedback. I am very anxious to get it up and running. If all goes as planned, I am going to expand my herd of goats, add a cow and rabbits, and hope to feed out my broilers on fodder. I am also wanting to start raising hogs to sell. We'll see how it goes. We built a homemade one that does work on a very small scale, but we've had some problems with it.


I've had this system for about 5 weeks and I'm loving it. My goats are looking great and so are their kids which I've been giving fodder for the past few weeks. Chickens are eating like crazy and I'm getting a ton of eggs. I just introduced it to the hogs and they are eating it up. It took them about 10 seconds after I put it in their feeder before they started eating it.
So far I'd say purchasing the system was worth it.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

a post to bring to more current viewing timeframe, so it can help with the forum.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

only thing I think I could add is I would avoid the bleach and use 30% hydrogen peroxide.
lot more organism friendly at least the higher ones.

heres a good link on spouting and I did a copy paste on the peroxide method,

http://www.alive.com/articles/view/22642/you_know_you_make_me_wanna_sprout

"To alleviate concerns about contamination, soak your seeds in a hydrogen peroxide solution. Use 2 Tbsp (30 mL) of 35 percent food-grade hydrogen peroxide to roughly 1 1/2 cups (350 mL) of water. Mist your sprouts lightly after each rinse with a fresh hydrogen peroxide and water solution (using the same ratio). "

seems to me a mix of seed may provide better nutrition over all.

can't vouch for this company so please do your research but seems legit and price is within reason... 

http://www.pureh2o2forhealth.com/

you may be able to source some from a pool supply,chemical supply or cleaning supply near you.

Not doing the fodder thing but I do use peroxide when spouting hard to sprout seeds.


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## Raymond James (Apr 15, 2013)

I visited a dairy farmer that built a sprouting building. Concrete floor sloped to drain, 10 ft. tall ceiling, maybe 15 by 15. There were three shelves on each side of a central aisle. Shelf was built out of metal siding sloped to drain. The water was fed by a timer thru hoses to spray in the back/top of shelf. The water flowed down thru the seeds and out the floor drain. Fans running on 12 volt battery to make sure there is air movement. 

They used a rake to pull the sprouts down and into a heel barrel to take to feed. I think 30 cows . I think he said his sprouting time- time from putting seeds on shelf till it was fed was 5 days. I do not recall what type of seed he was sprouting I do recall he said by weight he only fed 1/2 the weight of what he used to feeding straight grain. 

He got a lot of info from a researcher at an Arkansas University do not remember which one. He did not buy anything expensive he did buy some timing devices and pumps from Morgan County Seeds in Morgan County Missouri.


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## colemangirly (Sep 30, 2010)

If you just want a small system try this www.half-pinthomestead.com. I have one in my basement and it only takes up 2x3 foot of space. I feed 10 mid sized dairy goats with it. I have dropped all other grain that they eat (less chance of bloat) and not only has my milk not dropped but gone up. My kids reach weight faster. I love it and it only takes me 10-15 minutes a day and 30 minutes once a week to clean it all. Glad farm tek is trying a homestead size can you tell me more about it?


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Green and growing food has got to be more nutritious and better for the animal(for us too). Also, by using fodder instead of whole grains, homesteaders could capitalize on the paleo craze. If an animal is fed this, pasture and hay....they would definitely be grass fed. Have y'all priced grass fed meats?!!! 

Anyone have suggestions for a more southern friendly grain? I'd have to use A/C and blocks of ice to maintain temps below 70 degrees for most of the year!

Being able to just rip out a chunk of fodder from a tray is really convenient, but what about growing something like alfalfa and snipping it off to put on drying racks for high quality rabbit hay? 

I'm looking for food for tilapia and chickens and I think this just might be a good fit.


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## joebill (Mar 2, 2013)

Just a bit of an update.

My two pigs are about half grown, now, mostly fed on sprouted re-cleaned barley seed. We have had a lot going on this summer, and so our sprouting efforts have been rather shoddy, but this stuff REALLY likes to grow, and so the operation has not suffered much.

The trays get hand-watered a few times a day when we are home because the timers I found were not really suitable for the task or we were not smart enough to program them, probably the latter. They ( the trays) are outdoors in the shade, with screenwire to protect the seeds from birds, etc. We have them lined up on a table under a tin roof, each plastic tray with holes drilled in the bottom for drainage. A truly sloppy operation, but productive.

If I were going to do it again, I'd consider a small shed with AC for temperature control, good timers on sprinklers, etc, but don't think for a minute that you can't just string something together and make it work profitably. This has been operating through our traditional 100 days in a row over 100 degrees F. summer, and produced very well. In fact, much better than our treatment of the project deserved, because of our forced absenses due to surgeries, etc.

Just saying................Joe


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## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

It's interesting how this forum has a discussion on fodder as well. Very nice how all the facets of it's effectiveness have been covered. Still, I've been growing fodder for a number of years and will continue to do so. My main experience is with chickens, so this post will be mostly based on them, although this probably goes for other animals as well. It's interesting how feed evolves... first free-ranging... then entirely corn... now that grain harvesting technicality has improved, store-bought rations... and back to something like the greens found in free-ranging - fodder. 

It seems like the main point of most of these arguments is comparing fodder to a dry materials diet. Whereas the point of growing fodder is not to feed your animals a dry mass diet and one that more closely resembles a forage diet. The studies do not make any comparisons to fodder vs pasture/free-ranging/tractors/compost-forage. Feeding in terms of weight which seems like a misstep in a turn analysis of value. I agree that it may not be the most long term economical way to grow animal feed but if you do not own pasture land then growing pasture isn't an option either.

There are numerous scientific journals* that break down exactly how the nutritional value changes in grains as they are soaked, germinated and sprouted. Based on these articles, it seems that the digestible proteins increase in sprouted grains. Aside from those trials, I also agree that sprouting increases the bio-availability of the other nutrients in grain, is preferred by livestock, is cost-effective, and healthier.


* Please note that I do NOT put much credit in 'scientific' studies, but use what works. Thinking out of the box is preferable, and even if there is only anecdotal evidence that something works, it's worth trying. People generally don't have reason to lie about feed, of all things. 

I have never tried the 1020 trays before though. Will have to try that this spring when I get a few more birds. They seem cheaper than the other trays I have been getting.


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## anahatalotus (Oct 25, 2012)

Just bumping to make this topic easier to find...


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## foxwoodrunfarm (Jun 19, 2014)

I am utterly amazed at some of the vitriol expressed on this thread... I'm new to using fodder, but thought it sounded like it might be something that could help my animals and possibly reduce external inputs. I'm a hardcore DIY'er, so making a system in the basement was an enjoyable afternoon for me. My animals really seem to enjoy the fodder, eat a noticeably lesser amount of 'normal' feed, and haven't displayed any aversion to it at all. Sounds like a win for me. Which I feel is the most important part in all this... It works FOR US. Your mileage may vary. 

Be well all.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Just a fun way to hydrate your livestock.


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## FodderWorks (Apr 15, 2016)

Just jumping on this thread to see if I can be of any assistance. I skimmed the thread and saw the usual articles and comments. Full Disclosure - I am the GM of FodderWorks.net. What does that mean? It means I spend my full time job researching, understanding, and learning all about fodder - all the time. If you want to know how we got into fodder, I'm happy to share. If you want to know what research exists, happy to share it. If you want to know who in you area uses fodder and you want to ask them questions, just ask.

This is a tough industry change, but we're working hard on it all the time. That means we help people even if they have a DIY or competitor's fodder system. A perfect example is the Farmtek Conversion Kit I developed. It was made not to make money - but to take people who are having poor experiences with fodder, and turn them into positive ones. We know how to grow it efficiently and how to properly feed it. That comes from years of experience and hard work.

The last comment was, "Just a fun way to hydrate your livestock." - To put it short, people still try to rationalize dry matter - at least in the US. I was just at the Canadian Dairy XPO and the thought process was very different. As they feed a lot of silage and other wet feeds, the dry matter was a non issue. The majority understand how to formulate this type of feed into their ration. Get on the west coast of the US, and it's more difficult for nutritionists to understand.

I coined our new slogan, "Animal Nutrition is No Longer Cut and Dried" to help people understand this is a change in how we feed. It requires new research and understanding.

I'm not here to sell you a fodder system - I'm only here to help you understand fodder. :thumb:


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

FodderWorks said:


> Just jumping on this thread to see if I can be of any assistance. I skimmed the thread and saw the usual articles and comments. Full Disclosure - I am the GM of FodderWorks.net. What does that mean? It means I spend my full time job researching, understanding, and learning all about fodder - all the time. If you want to know how we got into fodder, I'm happy to share. If you want to know what research exists, happy to share it. If you want to know who in you area uses fodder and you want to ask them questions, just ask.
> 
> This is a tough industry change, but we're working hard on it all the time. That means we help people even if they have a DIY or competitor's fodder system. A perfect example is the Farmtek Conversion Kit I developed. It was made not to make money - but to take people who are having poor experiences with fodder, and turn them into positive ones. We know how to grow it efficiently and how to properly feed it. That comes from years of experience and hard work.
> 
> ...


Dry matter matters. It is a way to measure nutrients in an animal's diet. If I wanted to formulate a ration for my rabbits, I'd need to know their nutritional requirements. Fresh cut grass might be 35% moisture and cured hay might be 8% moisture. Let's assume the grass and hay were the same nutritional quality. On a pound for pound basis, I'd need to feed more wet grass. The rabbit's water intake would be expected to be lower with the higher moisture feed.

If I soaked 5 pounds of rolled oats in 5 gallons of boiling water. I'd end up with 45 pounds of oatmeal. The nutritional value of that 45 pounds of oatmeal would be equal to 5 pounds of rolled oats.

Just as when I soaked 5 pounds of wheat berries in 5 gallons of water. The nutrition remains the same for the 45 pounds of swollen wheat.

As I add to this 45 pound mass of wet wheat, nutrients and expose it to sunlight, chemical changes start. chlorophyll goes up, protein is expended growing the root and stem system. But for all intents and purposes, the nutrient amount remains close to what the 5 pounds of wheat originally had. You have hydrated a feed source. 

Dry it, compare its dry matter protein amount and it will be close to plain wheat.

Just as Russian prison camps added water to barley soup, you can make more food, but the actual nutrient level remains the same. 

This idea isn't new. There were on farm sprouting racks over a hundred years ago. 

Go ahead, grow sprouts. If you can keep the ecoli out of it, it makes an interesting addition to your salad.

Does your being "fully invested" in selling fodder production products, in any way skew your "research"? Do you have some university studies to support your work?


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## FodderWorks (Apr 15, 2016)

I didn't say dry matter doesn't matter - it does. But it doesn't tell the whole story. I can feed sawdust in a ration but that's not going to serve any benefit.

The main challenge is people thinking we're only adding water, so the result must be the original product plus water. If this were true, why would anyone juice wheat grass for health benefits? The juicing process would mean they are just drinking water. Obviously that's absurd. The same goes for fresh fruit or dry fruit - which is healthier? You know the answer, so why does it not apply to animals?

Yes, there is research. You can start with this from CSU: http://www.chicostateorganicdairy.com/research.html


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

FodderWorks said:


> I didn't say dry matter doesn't matter - it does. But it doesn't tell the whole story. I can feed sawdust in a ration but that's not going to serve any benefit.
> 
> The main challenge is people thinking we're only adding water, so the result must be the original product plus water. If this were true, why would anyone juice wheat grass for health benefits? The juicing process would mean they are just drinking water. Obviously that's absurd. The same goes for fresh fruit or dry fruit - which is healthier? You know the answer, so why does it not apply to animals?
> 
> Yes, there is research. You can start with this from CSU: http://www.chicostateorganicdairy.com/research.html


But if you add sawdust (your example) to water, the digestible protein remains the same. When you add water to a grain, you have only water and grain. As the grain sprouts, it expends energy to grow the sprout. What is lost in the wheat berry is found, slightly modified, in the root threads. There are no added vitamins or minerals. 

As I mentioned earlier, there can be some added chlorophyll, if the sprouting has had enough exposure to the sun. Juicing sprouted wheat blends the vitamins and minerals already in the wheat berry, with the chlorophyll rich blades of the wheat plant, giving you that distinct color and flavor. For those that subscribe to the notion that, " If it tastes bad, it must be good for me", wheatgrass juice is the Fountain of Youth. Turn your body's attempts at expelling this product to the latest craze of "toxin cleansing" and you have created a following. 

Running anything through a juicer and expecting water is absurd. But adding nothing but sunlight to sprouted wheat and expecting some magical transformation is equally absurd.

A product that contains all the nutrients of whole wheat bread, add squeezed grass juice, suggest that the bad taste is proof of health, explain that diarrhea is proof of cleansing your liver of toxins, suggest Jesus drank it and you have yourself a winner. 

I contend that a half pound of jerky has the same grams of protein and the same minerals as the pound of beef that it came from.

Generally speaking, fruits and vegetables will contain the same vitamins and minerals fresh or dried, based on their dry matter measurement. A pound of Navy Beans will have the same dietary fiber, digestible protein, etc., as a pound of Navy Beans soaking in a kettle of water.

IMHO, sprouting grains to feed your livestock makes a tasty snack and at best causes no harm. At worst, you provide a medium conducive to the growth of molds, often existing in grains, hurting your animals.

Bacteria and mold are common concerns for those providing sprouts for the public. Recalls are not rare.

Please excuse my skepticism of this UC Chico place you list. Being from the Right side of the country, I view their web page with much skepticism.


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## FodderWorks (Apr 15, 2016)

haypoint said:


> But if you add sawdust (your example) to water, the digestible protein remains the same. When you add water to a grain, you have only water and grain. As the grain sprouts, it expends energy to grow the sprout. What is lost in the wheat berry is found, slightly modified, in the root threads. There are no added vitamins or minerals.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, there can be some added chlorophyll, if the sprouting has had enough exposure to the sun. Juicing sprouted wheat blends the vitamins and minerals already in the wheat berry, with the chlorophyll rich blades of the wheat plant, giving you that distinct color and flavor. For those that subscribe to the notion that, " If it tastes bad, it must be good for me", wheatgrass juice is the Fountain of Youth. Turn your body's attempts at expelling this product to the latest craze of "toxin cleansing" and you have created a following.
> 
> ...


With some research you'll find that Cindy Daley who was in charge of the research is well respected across the country for her experience in pasture management. If you saw some of the conclusions you would see that their research stated 2lbs of wet sprouts was able to replace 1lb of dry grain in their ration. That means you're replacing 1lb of dry grain with only .3lbs of dry matter.

I think it would be wise to read this: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0482/1017/files/Feeding_Germinated_Grain.pdf?15224726324091326303 It's geared towards poultry, but is very detailed on the changes that happen when you sprout grain. It's not from the west coast (or even the US) so maybe that perspective will help. If not, reach out to Sylvia Abel-Caines, the nutritionist for Organic Valley out that way.

Golden Valley Sheep has quite a few milking ewes on fodder. Their ration consists of the following:

Oat Hay: 13%
Fodder: 36% (Wet weight)
Canola Meal: 6%
Rolled Corn: 6%
Almond Hulls: 39%

They are feeding 130lb ewes just under 4lbs per day. They have 1,200 head and the total ration is 4,500lbs. They are gaining 1lb/day currently. They have another location with more sheep where they do not have fodder. There they feed 2,000 ewes almond hulls, oat hay, and grape pumice. Their ration is slightly higher in weight at 4.25lbs/hd. Mario is the owner and is a nutritionist, as well as his brother who works on the farm. This is another practical example that your total ration matters more than the total lbs of dry matter.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

5 oz of grain will make 2 pound of fodder? You said that 2 pounds of fodder, from about 5 oz of wheat, replaces 2 pounds of grain. In what way? Are you saying that 2 pounds of fodder, is a nutritional equivalent to a pound of grain? Protein? 

.3 pounds of grain will absorb over one and a half pints of water (1.7pints) to become 2 pounds of fodder?

I can replace a pound of grain with 2 pounds of packing peanuts, but that, in itself, proves nothing.

If the 5 oz of grain had 14% protein, adding 27 oz of water changes the mixture to about 2% protein. Feeding 2 pounds of fodder is not close to feeding a pound of 14% grain.

If you are going to grow livestock, you need digestible protein. I have no idea the protein amounts in grape pumice or almond hulls. Oat hay can vary a great deal depending on the stage it was harvested.

We agree that rations are not formulated based solely on dry matter. But adding water to grain, letting it sprout isn't going to replace a portion of the protein requirements.

To be fair, I did read the 42 page manuscript you provided, from not feeding fox lung to hens to delicious recipes.


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## FodderWorks (Apr 15, 2016)

haypoint said:


> 5 oz of grain will make 2 pound of fodder? You said that 2 pounds of fodder, from about 5 oz of wheat, replaces 2 pounds of grain. In what way? Are you saying that 2 pounds of fodder, is a nutritional equivalent to a pound of grain? Protein?
> 
> .3 pounds of grain will absorb over one and a half pints of water (1.7pints) to become 2 pounds of fodder?
> 
> ...


The example was with barley, but yes the numbers are right. (wheat would be similar) I'm just reiterating the research at CSU. They found that the replacement rate when switching to fodder from grain was 2:1. In other words, on nutrition, energy, etc. If you're feeding 5lbs of grain in a dairy ration, you can replace the 5lbs of grain with 10lbs of wet fodder. The production, milk components, etc will not change. (Most actually see a slight increase in milk fats and protein.) You're still assuming that sprouts are equivalent in nutrition to grain + water. That isn't true. That would be extremely simple to test, just send off some grain plus water to a lab, as well as an equivalent amount of sprouts. They are not the same, even on a dry matter basis the sprouts are clearly more valuable than the grain. Digestibility alone increases to over 70%.

Since your name is haypoint I'll assume you know some things about hay... sprouts work equally well in that situation. Most people who feed fodder cut their hay consumption in half. The replacement rates vary on the hay they were using, but anywhere from 1-2lbs of sprouts are replacing 1lb of hay. Let's assume we have a 1,000lb horse that eats 2% of its body weight in hay each day.

1,000lbs x 2% = 20lbs hay
There is a limit to how much fodder you can feed, I generally don't recommend much more than half a diet - this is from experience. Forget the fact that I work with a fodder company - I know more people using fodder than just about anyone and talk with them on a regular basis. (You're welcome to ask, I can put in touch with people if you're willing to talk to them.)

So we remove half of the hay, 1% or 10lbs. How much weight in sprouts would you say is required for the horse to maintain their condition and energy? Correct me if I'm wrong, but your math would say we still need to replace the amount of dry matter with something else with equivalent nutritional value. That means we need 10lbs of sprouts on a dry matter basis. At 85% moisture, that is roughly 66lbs of wet sprouts. So our new ration is now 10lbs hay and 66lbs (wet) in sprouts. This will not work! It's far too much feed. The horses can eat it all (because they like the sprouts they will if you let them) but it will not go well. The feed will pass through too quickly and they'll shrink up. 

Based on both experience and university research, the replacement rate is actually 2:1 as I mentioned above. That means a 1,000lb horse should really have 10lbs hay + 20lbs in wet fodder. This works! Not only will they maintain their condition, it will improve. People see improvements in hoof quality, coat condition, gums, etc.

The real question I have is what animals do you feed? Why WOULDN'T you want a better and possibly cheaper source of feed for them?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

You contend that 5 ounces of barley will absorb 1 2/3 pints of water and make 2 pounds of fodder that is nutritionally equal to, or better than, 2 pounds of barley?
You contend that my view that sprouted barley in water is equal to barley in water is wrong and that nutrition, energy, etc. is multiplied in the process of sprouting. The extremely simple test you suggest must have been completed and documented dozens of times and numerous Agricultural Universities. Can you help me locate such data, if it exists?
You state digestibility alone increases to over 70%. What is the digestibility of water soaked, un-sprouted grain? Digestibility in what species? In humans, digestibility of oatmeal is believed to be much higher. http://journals.cambridge.org/downl...07a.pdf&code=ef100fd7a48504211339879b90c07d0c


While I&#8217;m no expert, your assumption that I know hay is correct. I also have a broad knowledge of feeding livestock, including horses. 
As this relates to horses, in years that hay is plentiful, I can increase the amount of hay and limit the grain ration. Conversely, in years that hay is scarce, I can reduce the amount of hay and increase the grain ration. Care must be taken to insure that this is not taken to extreme, due to the horse&#8217;s fiber requirements. 
If I were feeding 100 pounds of hay each day, per horse, and wanted to reduce the hay consumption, I would not exchange 50 pounds of hay with 50 pounds of grain. Grain is a far higher energy feed. I might feed 50 pounds of hay and 10 pounds of grain. Using your figures, 3 pounds, 2 ounces of barley and 2 gallons of water, creating 20 pounds of fodder will equal the nutrition of 10 pounds of grain. No way can 3 pounds of barley, soaked in water, sprouted, set in the sun to turn the tips green, going to equal 10 pounds of grain.


Walk into any place that sells horse stuff. It&#8217;s a billion dollar industry. Dozens of feed additives and each with their own testimonials. Most don&#8217;t work. But the believers continue to believe.
I do want better feed for my animals. I&#8217;m very fussy about what they are fed. The sun is a wonderful thing, the source of all our power. But I do not believe that the sun can transform barley and water into a mostly water product that is nutritionally equivalent to 3 times as much grain. 
Plant 5 ounces of barley in fertile soil, add water and expose to sunlight for 6 months and there will be an increase in the weight and food value, equal to the loss of soil nutrients. But simply growing fodder in trays with only water added, then expecting great increases in nutrients defies science.
I&#8217;d love to be able to create something out of nothing, but never seen that happen.

But, as stated earlier, it is a fun way to feed your critters and give them a treat. But for me, I&#8217;d rather give my horses a ginger snap once in a while than to tend a year around fodder battery in the corner of the kitchen.
My horse feed is 100 pounds cracked corn, 100 pounds oats, 100 pounds Spelt, 2 gallons corn oil, 25 pounds freshly ground flax, 10 pounds vitamin/mineral mix. They eat timothy/clover hay free choice, about 65-80 pounds a day, and 5 pounds of horse feed. When being worked, that changes to up to 15 pounds of horse feed.


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## FodderWorks (Apr 15, 2016)

haypoint said:


> You contend that 5 ounces of barley will absorb 1 2/3 pints of water and make 2 pounds of fodder that is nutritionally equal to, or better than, 2 pounds of barley?




Yes, assuming it is sprouting and not just absorbing water. Grain with water is not the same as the sprout. The change as it sprouts is a key part of the process. I've attached a series of lab tests on sprouts.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Thanks for the Lab results from fodder/sprouts. But since we don't know what the protein level was prior to sprouting, no benefit can be assigned to the fodder. We know what it increased to, but not what it increased from.

If you are going to demonstrate the power of sprouts, a simple study can easily be done. I'll call this an apples to apples study.

Take two random 8 ounce samples of barley. Sprout one sample. Make fodder. Send in both samples. The half pound of barley will be tested on a dry matter basis. The three pound fodder sample will be tested on a dry matter basis.

Based on your earlier statements, protein, vitamins and minerals will be double or triple of the plain unsprouted barley. Right?


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## FodderWorks (Apr 15, 2016)

I'll dig around and see if I can find one, I know we've done it. Since it's not something you end up feeding we don't tend to look at it much! But yes, the process you've mentioned for testing is correct. It still doesn't account for the benefits of anything that is moisture, but it does test very well even on a dry basis.

Let's face it, you can't find any other feed with RFV values in the high 200 or even over 300 range.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

The new mysterious ingredient in the fodder comes from growth. Why is this so difficult to accept? Plant fibers are made of cellulose which ingredients literally come out of the air. (Hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon) The animals rumen digest the cellulose by growing bacteria. This bacteria feed the critter proteins and fats. It's obvious you never grew things with hydroponics. A simply back of the envelope calculation for lettuce... on a dry basis you start withe 13 grams of salts and end up with 80 grams of dry material. A near 8 times increase just adding sun and water.


As far as protien... the protien in the feed is used in the rumen to produce the bacteria. Bacterial proteins and fats injested by the critter. Or differently a cow eats meat not vegetables.


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## Fodderfeed (Feb 19, 2013)

Good lord people have been eating sprout forever and why?......nutrition...

Heres a link to some good nutritional value.... they dont lose their value just because their grown for animals as opposed to people.....

http://www.sproutnet.com/Resources-Data-on-the-Nutritional-Value-of-Sprouts


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Fodderfeed said:


> Good lord people have been eating sprout forever and why?......nutrition...
> 
> Heres a link to some good nutritional value.... they dont lose their value just because their grown for animals as opposed to people.....
> 
> http://www.sproutnet.com/Resources-Data-on-the-Nutritional-Value-of-Sprouts



And the other side of the argument... 

People can get added nutrient from the sprouts grains because we can't digest all the starches in the seeds. A rumen can digest those tightly bound complex nutrients found in raw seeds. 

P.S. Cooking the seeds has the same effect on the starches.


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## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

FodderWorks said:


> I'll dig around and see if I can find one, I know we've done it. Since it's not something you end up feeding we don't tend to look at it much! But yes, the process you've mentioned for testing is correct. It still doesn't account for the benefits of anything that is moisture, but it does test very well even on a dry basis.
> 
> Let's face it, you can't find any other feed with RFV values in the high 200 or even over 300 range.


Well, I for one am glad to have an expert like you around.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

I've only read the last 10 posts or so, but Haypoint has a good point about the nutritional analysis posted: we have no comparison to the dry grain itself. 

The mineral analysis itself is suspect: if fodder is made of seeds, water and whatever it soaks from the air (co2), it can contain no minerals not contained in the original seed. The values posted seem unreasonably high.

Grasses in general are very poor sources of protein. Their seeds are the only concentrated collection of protein in the plant, and they are generally only 1-2% protein and make lousy food for humans, having a very low protein/calorie ratio.

I've dabbled with fodder as nutrition for horses. The horses usually have to be "taught" that the fodder is good (Why? if it's so great) and it's hard to keep the fodder from molding- very dangerous for horses. I found the process not worth it.

Fodder is just grass harvested while short and served wet. Big deal.


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## FodderWorks (Apr 15, 2016)

doc- said:


> I've only read the last 10 posts or so, but Haypoint has a good point about the nutritional analysis posted: we have no comparison to the dry grain itself.
> 
> The mineral analysis itself is suspect: if fodder is made of seeds, water and whatever it soaks from the air (co2), it can contain no minerals not contained in the original seed. The values posted seem unreasonably high.
> 
> ...


I think the key thing you're missing is that this _isn't_ a grass. Cereal grains that are sprouted may look like grass, but are nutritionally very different.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

FodderWorks said:


> I think the key thing you're missing is that this _isn't_ a grass. Cereal grains that are sprouted may look like grass, but are nutritionally very different.


Technically, you are correct.
But nutritionally, the green blades of grass and the green blades from the sprouted barley, are similar.
The protein in the barley supplies nutrition to the sprout. Sugars and starches convert. Chlorophyll is produced by the son. 

Increases in palatability occur.


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