# Rabbits Suddenly Dying One by One



## bbkaren (Oct 28, 2008)

Maybe you folks can helpâin the past several days weâve had four of our juveniles die (born middle of march, so theyâre around 10 weeks old.) 

Theyâre all the same color (black) but I doubt that matters since all the litters had some black ones and theyâre in grow-out cages all together now, so I donât know whoâs from which litter.

Theyâre all nice and plump and active, donât seem thin--

Before we moved them out to the open cages, they were in hutches, about six apiece. Thursday we found one dead and thought it was just a fluke. Then Friday we found another that was still alive but obviously dazed. Lying upright with ears erect, but when we laid him on the ground he flopped about trying to right himself, then just flopped back down and laid there.

So we moved everyone out into large dog crates that weâve fashioned into grow-out cages/sort-of rabbit tractors, thinking they were over-crowded or that there was ammonia causing a problem (a section of those hutches is closed off as a separate âroomâ with a wood floor).

Yesterday out in the cages I noticed one that was sluggish and feared the worst.

Sure enough, this morning the sluggish one was just like the other; alive, awake and upright, but as soon as I picked him up and put him on the ground, he tried to right himself but couldnât.

Looked into the other cage and thereâs another, this one lying on his sideâdead, I thought. But no, heâs alive although barely.

I put them both down and come to you for advice. What could be causing this?

Everyoneâs very active at feeding time, and this seems to happen very suddenlyâwithin a day or so.

Any advice? Thanks!


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## IzzyD (Apr 13, 2009)

Do you have any weasels? 
I had a whole batch taken out and they acted a lot like that, search the body over for puncture marks, under the fur, they are quite small.
I lost 11 that way.
Could be something else, but it was just a thought.


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## bbkaren (Oct 28, 2008)

I don't know of weasels; but we're in NJ and we have foxes, skunks, etc. which I guess could grab them through the grid on the cages (it's about 1" wide)

However, this was also happening in the hutch which is completely closed with 1/2" mesh, and there's no sign of tampering...


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## jhuebner (Mar 29, 2009)

do they have diarrhea? this is the age some babies get a bacterial infection... give them yogurt! ... about 1tsp 2-3 times a day..


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## bbkaren (Oct 28, 2008)

I'll see if there's any sign of the runs--

In the meantime, is it contagious? (Jeez, I hope not...I don't have enough space to put each one in isolation.)

It almost seems like they're being poisoned but I'd think the others would be ailing as well, all at once, kwim? Seems like they'd be at least a little sick...


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

A weasel is so small that it could bite them even through half-inch mesh, if they were laying close to it, I think. So do check any victims thoroughly for bite marks.

The only other possibility that comes to mind is weaning enteritis... and I have never heard that that causes precisely the symptoms you mention. What do you feed them?


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## arachyd (Feb 1, 2009)

Have they been out in the sun? Black fur soaks up heat a lot faster than lighter colors and black rabbits would be more prone to heat stroke.


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## bbkaren (Oct 28, 2008)

They're always in the shade so I don't think it'd be heatstroke--it's not been that hot here so unless they were in the sun I can't imagine they'd be affected...

I'll check to see if there are any bite marks. Though I'm not certain I've ever seen a weasel they might exist...or some other predator maybe?

Does it sound like it'd be something like pasturella? I was reading about that today and it seems like it kills suddenly--and after stress (i.e. moving from one cage to another, new roommates?).

I think I gathered that moms carry it and pass it to their offspring and they might not show symptoms until they experience stress of some sort.

I kind of hope that's not it since I read it's so very contagious, I'd hate to cull the whole gang.

I'm glad the babes are out away from the grownups now at least--God forbid we lose these, at least the parents are still intact. I think...

p.s. what about the meat? If it's pasturella, is it okay? Are there any types of diseases where it'd not be okay?

Thank you all so much...I'm dreading going out there now for fear there'll be another casualty.

Thank God we have snakes that can take any size rabbit and at least the casualties aren't going to waste--

Just sad, not being able to figure it out...


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## Jesse L (Nov 6, 2008)

It dosnt sound like it would be pasterella. That is a germ that causes snuffles, which is the actual 'disease'. Rabbits with this will be sneezing, wheezing, and have matted paws. They will also have alot of white nasal discharge. I have never heard of them dying with those symtoms. 

Im not really sure what it could be. Wouldnt hurt treating everyone for worms and that sort of stuff.

Like above, could be weaning enteritis. 

Any other symtoms of the dying rabbits?


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

Could a poisonous snake or something similar be biting them?

Kayleigh


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## Dian (May 11, 2003)

Look all around the area and see if you can find any wasp nests. It sounds just like what I had happen a few years ago. I would either find rabbits already dead of trying to stand and couldn't. They were healthy as far as I could tell. One day when I was out feeding, I heard one scream, turned around just in time to see a wasp on it. It died in just a few minutes. When I checked really good the wasps had a nest in the very back corner of the enclosed part of the rabbit cage.
Hope you figure out what is going on. I hate losing them when they are about butcher size. Like you I always wonder about the meat.


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## bbkaren (Oct 28, 2008)

Wasps. THOSE we have a lot of...

I'll check around--I mean, bees and wasps are always milling about but particularly over by the deck (where we lost the first two--the hutch was under the deck). They're taking a day or so from beginning of symptoms to death, it seems.

Maybe I'll put some screening on their hutches & crates regardless.


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## bbkaren (Oct 28, 2008)

Okay, we have another today; he&#8217;s in better shape than the others but he&#8217;s on his way out. I took a video of him with my phone and will post it...but it's not that informative. He's not bad enough yet to thrash about or fall over. Just sitting there.

I can tell when I come by with food. They all go nuts&#8212;except for &#8220;the sick one&#8221; who huddles in the corner.

This one still has some pep to him but is very weak. When I pick him up he kicks a couple times then relaxes&#8212;then about 10 seconds later I see his eyes start closing.

I looked him over really well and can&#8217;t find any sort of injury.

My husband is wondering if it&#8217;s a &#8220;weakest link&#8221; sort of thing, where the weakest rabbit is picked on by the others, to the point of exhaustion? And when he&#8217;s gone they move on to the next weakest? 

To see if things improve, I've put him by himself with food and water and will see if he's still with us when I get home. Heck, maybe it IS overcrowding?

There are 9 in a covered dog crate&#8212;it&#8217;s 3x4 and in it are two inverted nest boxes as cubbies. I move the crate daily so they get to nibble fresh grass & clover. They&#8217;re at the edge of the woods and almost completely sheltered from direct sun. 

Haven&#8217;t been able to find any wasps nearby and for the life of me can&#8217;t figure why it&#8217;s striking only the black ones. They're all mixed now but wondering if the sick ones might be all from one litter. But then, why only one a day?

Trying to find a connection&#8230;

I just can&#8217;t figure it out.


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## bbkaren (Oct 28, 2008)

MaggieJ said:


> ...What do you feed them?


They're getting second cut grass hay plus straw (which they seem to enjoy eating as much as the hay) twice a day. Fresh greens each day (grass & clover), a little. And a mix of the following:

By volume:

1 part sunflower seed
1 part pellets
3 parts oats
3 parts barley

Could it be a malnutrition thing? Alfalfa is really hard to get in our area, and expensive; and the person we got the rabbits from claims they don't need it as long as there's a source of protein of some sort. Maybe I'm not giving them enough...?

The adults are thriving on this diet but maybe the babies need something different?

Thanks!

(and yet, again, if it's malnutrition, why just one a day dying and everyone else is fine? Why just the black ones? arrgh!)


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## Bamboorabbit (Jan 22, 2009)

It happens......as a rule I have it happen more often with the larger litters. Have you done a necropsy on any of the unfortunates? Look at the lungs especially as when I have this happen the lungs tend to be where it manifests itself. When I opened them up all looked normal except the lungs which were spotted and a bit bloody.


I have no idea what it is. In my case and it must not be contagious or very anyway. I have had 4 die out of the last 6 litters so 4 lost out of 45 kits and it is almost always after they are weaned.


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## bbkaren (Oct 28, 2008)

So...it might just be a mystery? Oh man, that's gonna drive me crazy 

Identify guts, huh? lol That'll be an adventure for me. I'll have to find a photo of where the lungs are lol--I've never butchered any yet.

Do you eat the meat when this happens? I imagine it's probably okay, right?

We've been bonking them and sticking them in the freezer for snakey poo so at least they're not going to waste, but if it were feasible I'd rather dispatch them with the pellet gun and butcher for our use...or at least for practice.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

If you possibly can, I would divide them into two cages, perhaps putting all the black ones together in one cage. It could be some inherited weakness if you think they might be all from one litter.

I have to wonder if they are eating something along with the clover and grass that is not good for them... or if there is some residual fertilizer/pesticide on the grass. 

Now for my pet peeve... Adding your location to your profile would help us to help you... so often rabbit problems are influenced by climate. :soap: It gets frustrating to try to guess what might be a factor when we don't have a clue whether you are in Florida or Alaska. It's no use just telling us... no one can remember all the locations for all the members.


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## bbkaren (Oct 28, 2008)

No problem, I'll do that right now! Never thought of it, frankly...

And the first two who died...weren't getting greens (except maybe once or twice) because they were still in the hutch, not on the grass.

But good idea! I'll isolate the black ones and see what happens.

Jeez, I just hope they quit dying on me...


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## Bamboorabbit (Jan 22, 2009)

bbkaren said:


> So...it might just be a mystery? Oh man, that's gonna drive me crazy
> 
> Identify guts, huh? lol That'll be an adventure for me. I'll have to find a photo of where the lungs are lol--I've never butchered any yet.
> 
> ...


LOl....sorry 

I assumed and should not have. I would dispatch a rabbit that is near death and do the necropsy right away. Hang by each back legs so the legs are spread apart like you are going to butcher. Make a slit from pelvis to ribs. Cut the sternum with a knife or scissors to spread the ribs. Most things will be vary easy to tell what they are. The lungs and heart will be inside the ribs. The lungs are pinkish tanish cream colored ish. You will know them when you see them. They should be pretty uniform in color..the rabbits I had that died the lungs would be blotchy and inflamed. It will be harder for you to tell "normal" though as you have not butchered yet.

Would I eat them....some people are probably going to tell you not to. The idea of eating a sick animal is I'm sure to some off putting. Growing up on the farm we did eat cattle that broke a leg or were down. I doubt there is any risk in eating them but I am no expert on the subject. Until recently sick cows were allowed to enter the human food chain. The mad cow thing ended that practice.


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## bbkaren (Oct 28, 2008)

Thanks--I'll give that a shot. The little guy will probably still be hanging in there when I get home, if the pattern is consistent with the others.

Somehow it seems a little easier to imagine cutting this one open since it died of natural causes so maybe it'd be a good way for me to "ease into" the whole butchering thing too.

Appreciate the help!


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## bbkaren (Oct 28, 2008)

Update on Casualty #4: He's in the cat carrier with hay and water. Weak but still alive, in fact, hubby says he was up drinking when he got home. Hoping for the best...


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

fingers crossed he rallies ....


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## bbkaren (Oct 28, 2008)

Update #2:

I got home and fed the family, then looked out in the "community" crate and there's another almost-dead one. Meh. We dispatched him but didn't have the time to open him up (family visiting from out of town) I guess that one is a waste since he's got lead in him and can't go to the snake.

On the bright-and-baffling side, cat carrier guy has rebounded and seems fine. Standing up on his hind legs when I came around with grain, etc.

My guilt-ridden conclusion: They have to have been overcrowded. At one point there were eight in the large 3x4 crate and they are like lunatics when it's feeding time so maybe they were hurting the weaker ones...?

I dispersed them some more so that there's 3 and 4 in the crates, plus a couple went back with their moms. Cat carrier guy can stay there for now until I see if this worked. He can be my control group.

I feel awful. Were they really trampling each other?


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## bbkaren (Oct 28, 2008)

My first morning with no apparent casualties. I hope that's over. Duly learned.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

I hope it's over too, Karen. Maybe it was overcrowding... although it did not seem an extreme situation to me. Possibly a combination of mixing litters with the overcrowding... someone has to be at the bottom of the pecking order.


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## Tracy (May 2, 2002)

Sound like coccidiosis to me. What did the livers look like?


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

I lost all but one of my first litter of 9 meat rabbits. First 4 were my fault- I didn;t expect mom to quit feeding them so young and water bottles were not dropped down yet. Then at about 4-5 weeks, I noticed some loose stools, bathed thier butts, switched them to alfalfa hay and water only and one by one they did what yours did within a couple days time. I have one left from that litter and she seems to be growing slowly as she is smaller than my 2 week younger french lops. It was not due to greens as I had not started incorporating greens back in to everyone diet at that time. The frenchies did and are doing fine, as are the other meat rabbits so far. My thought is that bunch got enteritis or coccidia somehow. I never did a PM, as I thought like you, the first was a fluke and when the others passed, it was work days so hubby found and buried them.


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## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

I just want to say I applaud your attitude. It's SO depressing losing buns, especially when they're our first and we've not yet experienced success. I think everyone that's ever raised rabbits has gone through some sort of catastrophe like you're going through. It WILL pass and there ARE brighter days ahead.

I wouldn't eat the meat unless I knew what the problem was.


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## bbkaren (Oct 28, 2008)

Just wanted to check in on this.

Casualty #4 is back in with his siblings/cousins and everyone's doing fine.

One thing I did was weigh them all and put them in with others of similar weights.

The only thing I can figure is the big ones were tromping on the smaller ones...

There are a couple litters that were born 1 or 2 weeks later than the main batch so maybe they were getting the short end of the stick, per se.
___________

On that note, I wanted to know if ~2.5 lbs is a normal weight for rabbits born 3/17 (3 months ago). The younger buns weighed in at 1.5 and 2 lbs.

I weighed them ~10 days ago and I really thought they'd weigh more by now. They seem healthy, not thin at all, and very peppy.

[sigh] maybe my hay-and-grain diet isn't putting the weight on like it should.

I appreciate all your advice and help!


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Karen, it's hard to say anything about those weights without knowing the weights of the parents. It sounds rather light for twelve weeks, but I have found on the hay/weeds/grains that the rabbits are not ready until about 16 weeks. If you're feeling brave enough after all your losses, you could try supplementing their grain. I found adding blackstrap molasses and salt helpful. 

I'd just take a mug and put in a couple tablespoonsful of molasses, a couple ounces of water and a spoonful of salt, nuke it for 20 - 30 seconds to warm it, stir and mix it into half a bucket of grain. It seemed to help put weight on them. Instead of kitchen salt, you may want to try a mineral block from the feed store. 

I phased the enriched mix into their regular grain so as not to cause digestive problems and had no trouble... but I can understand if you don't feel like attempting it with this group. Maybe best just to accept the slower growth under the circumstances.

Are you feeding alfalfa hay or grass hay?


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## bbkaren (Oct 28, 2008)

Thanks for the info!

They have salt blocks in their hutches and i'll try some molasses in the grain.

They've been getting grass hay & straw (which they seem to enjoy) twice a day. For the past month or so, we've added a good fistful of alfalfa/timothy "chops" (chopped hay) that they seem to enjoy.

We were feeding alfalfa & grass hay 50/50 until a few months ago when the breeder (if you can call him that...from the livestock auction) said he never feeds alfalfa hay at all; that his rabbits only get grass hay and some pellets. So we figured with the grain, we had the protein issue covered.

Perhaps some alfalfa hay would help them bulk up?

Issue is, it's really hard to get a lot of this stuff around here--the feed stores have alfalfa in cutesy little bags for a ton of money. The timothy/alfalfa chops were about 20 bucks for, I think, a 25 lb bag.

The livestock auction (about an hour away, on Tuesday mornings) is our nearest source for hay, straw, and alfalfa and we could go there and stock up if you think it'd help. I don't mind investing a day off if it'll fatten these little buggers up...


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

The breeder is feeding alfalfa in the pellets. Since your rabbits do not get pellets, their diet may need a bit more alfalfa or other protein-rich feed. Willow is quite high in protein, as is clover. It's always a bit of guesswork when you are feeding rabbits without pellets, but I'd think it may help to feed a bit more protein. 50/50 grass/alfalfa hay is good.


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## bbkaren (Oct 28, 2008)

Thanks, Maggie. I'll hit the auction maybe next week. I could use a day off with the little guy anyway. He loves the livestock auction!


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## vikav (Mar 30, 2009)

You may want to check local farms. I'm in upstate NY, and there are at least 5 farms around here I can buy hay from, 2 of them are even certified organic. Regular grass hay is $2.50 per small bale here. I buy certified organic 45-50 lb small bales of first cut, mostly timothy, with some other grasses mixed in for $8 a bale. I think the price is high, but then I do want organic, since the rabbits are for meat. You could also possibly get some alfalfa hay at one of the local dairy farms. If you have one around, I bet the price would be no more expensive than the ones I pay. You may find local farms by checking on http://www.localharvest.org/ .


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## ctomosky (Jul 14, 2008)

What happened to bbkaren sounds almost EXACTLY what happened to our popples, only they were around 8 days old when it started...


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