# I got a problem



## sbanks (Dec 19, 2010)

I sold some raw fiber with pics that show vm. The lady got it and now wants a refund after trying to clean.
I offered to take it back and clean it for her if she would pay shipping. Today was day number 8. I usually say no after 7 days.
So a day late she sends me a msg saying she filed with my local BBB and PP to get a refund. Well I explained to her that I spent the money on cancer meds and can't refund.
She got mad because I did not reply immediately, well I have a cancer patient living with me that I take care of 24 7.
I have no money in pp account and no money in checking acct. I offered to clean. What to do?

Sorry if some of you are in other place. Not meaning to PO anyone. I just don't know how to settle this. I offered and she said no. That's all I can do.:shrug:


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

From this side of the story, I'd say you were in the right. Were you up-front about the vegetable matter in the beginning, so she should have known that's what she was getting?

You offered to clean it for her, which is more than I would have done. If you wanted to clean it out and sell it for more, you would have in the first place!

The only person it sounds like this woman should be mad at is herself. I can't believe someone would have the audacity to file a claim about you through the BBB without ever bothering to return your email! I would call them just to follow up on the claim to see if there is anything you can do about it, since it doesn't sound to me like she was fair at all.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

I agree with Silver (Welcome Silver!). Is she had pictures to look at and took the fleece and washed it, etc. Nope I wouldn't take it back or refund her money. Ther is no terlling how she has handled the fleece. You are right, you offered and declined it's her baby and her problem, don't make it yours.

How have you left it with her so far? If you are needing to write her a reply then simply tell her that she saw the photos if she thought there was too much VM she should have returned it before cleaning it. It is too late at this point. Tell her you offered to make it right by cleaning the fleece for her but she declined. There is no more you can do. Then done't engage her any more, leave it at that.

That's my opinion. You don't need to give her the details of your life either, it is none of her business.


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## Ana Bluebird (Dec 8, 2002)

someone correct if I'm wrong, but I believe you can submit a reply to any complaints made about you to the BBB. So her complaint is answered by your reply if anyone checks, but who checks with BBB when buying fleece? Not me. Some fleeces are better than others, we all know that, or should. Perhaps she felted it when she washed it.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

Thanks, March!


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

she had a picture before and still bought it. did the picture show the true amount of VM? what kind of VM? 
if she bought the fleece fully informed, i guess this is what she has to deal with. i would not have offered to take it back in the first place after she already handled it.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

sbanks said:


> I sold some raw fiber with pics that show vm.


Was the pic she saw a good representation of the vm in the fleece?



> The lady got it and now wants a refund after trying to clean.


No refund if she has altered the fleece in any way, including trying to clean it.
If she had opened the box and decided she didn't want it, closed it back up and sent it back to you, I'd be inclined to say give her a refund. As it is, no way!

I've been on the receiving end of something like this from Apple Rose Farm (Elizabeth Ferraro in NJ). She raises Cormo & CA Red sheep. She showed sample locks of each of her fleeces, giving a good description of each. On the Cormo page, she noted which of the fleeces were not covered.

I was interested in a CA Red hogget fleece that had deep color in it. I was excited!! A covered CA Red hogget fleece that was skirted for $19/lb (which is the most I've paid for any raw fleece.)

What I got was an uncovered, lightly skirted fleece. When it arrived, I spread it out and took a pic (both sides) so I could compare the end product with it. I finished skirting it (plenty of huge burrs in the fleece as well as dirty britchen wool). I separated it, lock by lock to remove excess VM and then scoured it. It took 6 washes to get it clean. All the color was in the dirt in the fleece.

A long the way, I took pictures after every wash, and of the pile of burrs and dingle-berry covered britchen wool.

I sent an email to Elizabeth, complete with pictures, to let her know of my dissatisfaction of the way she portrayed the fleece. Her reply was that it was skirted, that she never said it was covered, that I must have screwed up the scouring, that her pastures didn't contain burrs but she would buy it back from me and half the raw fleece price. :umno: I didn't want her to buy it back, I wanted her to get honest with her advertising and asked her to remove me from her email list. 

The next year, she sent me a notification of fleeces. I replied to all, again asking to be removed from her list because of the dissatisfaction of the fleece and included the pictures.

I got back a scathing email from her ... and quite a number of other emails from folks that had previously bought her fleeces and were equally displeased. 

For 3-4 years, I continued to receive fleece notifications from her and each year, I replied to all, asking to be removed from her list because of the dissatisfaction of the fleece and included the pictures. Again, I got a nasty email from her and supportive emails from other people that were dissatisfied with her fleeces.

She finally got the hint and quit sending me fleece notifications.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

*lol* @ Cyndi's post. I fully believe in truth in advertising. The little Truth Monster inside me is delighted that she actually sent out a blanket email letting you know all of her other recipients' email addies (DUH?) and that you replied to All instead of Sender thumb. It's what she deserves for her lack of truthfulness, and her inability to admit her wrongs and apologize.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Yay! Cyndi!!!! I bought a fleece off ebay once, usually I have excellent luck there. In the pictures it looked beautiful, I think it was a Romney fleece. It looked like a very pale rosy oatmeal color, I especially love the rosy quality. Well, like Cyndi all the color was in the dirt. That had to be the dirtiest fleece I have ever gotten. It was a sparkling white when I finished (I don't particularly like white fleeces). I let the sell know I was disappointed by how I rated them. She wasn't happy but I felt she wasn't honest about what she was selling and told her so in another email.

Do you have a copy of the picture/s she saw? Can you post them here?


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Let me see if I can find them ... it's been a while.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

The only ones I can find are on my website. The best of the locks after skirting & separating but 'before' washing and then after 6 scours


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

I remember that well Cyndi. You posted the pictures on here. Try doing a forum search and post the link


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

LOL, hey Cyndi, you could have saved yourself a LOT of time and money if you just bought a white fleece to begin with! LOL :hysterical:


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I know someone who could have saved a lot of time and money if they hadn't bought a compost tumbler.:hysterical:


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

Well, I know someone who has two days to get me a jacket knit!!!:rotfl:


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

:yawn:


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

*rofl* Oh, you guys are hilarious.


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## lathermaker (May 7, 2010)

Hey Cyndi, what you have there is "magic fleece"....you wash it and the color magically disappears! LOL WHOA, that's one filthy fleece.

I'm getting to where I don't want to buy any more fleece unless I can see the whole thing in person. What part of a staple longer than 3" don't some people get??? I don't want to spin like an inch worm....


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

Man, I wish I still had my sheep. I could hook all you unhappy people up! *lol*


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

SilverFlame819 said:


> *rofl* Oh, you guys are hilarious.


You should see them IRL ... this is nuttin'


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## weever (Oct 1, 2006)

sbanks, I have thought long and hard about this situation, and I don't know what I would do in your shoes. 

But I did want to say that I'm sorry for what you're living with. Cancer stinks, and the pressure from living with that and dealing with tight finances as well must be unbearable.


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## sbanks (Dec 19, 2010)

This is a picture of one of the many fleeces that I have. I am selling these for a friend.
I posted on a Fleeceforsale message group that only lets you post raw fleece. I am always up front and said VM is included.

She finally got back with me and said she gave out 3 of the 10 lbs to other people and wants the 7 replaced with clean.
So I am going to do this this one time. Be a good fellow about it. Just tell hubs I am trading and I get more from the raw.

I finally saw a pic of her wool cleaning abilities and there in lies the troubles. She doesn't know how.
Thanks for the help folks. I originally told her no but caved to save a lot of trouble.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

sbanks said:


> This is a picture of one of the many fleeces that I have. I am selling these for a friend.
> I posted on a Fleeceforsale message group that only lets you post raw fleece. I am always up front and said VM is included.
> 
> She finally got back with me and said she gave out 3 of the 10 lbs to other people and wants the 7 replaced with clean.
> ...


i would not have offered that . i think you are a very generous person.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

VERY generous


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

... more generous than any of us, apparently. *lol*


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Agreed!!!


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

> She finally got back with me and said she gave out 3 of the 10 lbs to other people and wants the 7 replaced with clean.


This has bothered me all night.

The fleece was good enough that other folks wanted at least 3 lb of it. Makes me wonder if she _gave_ it away or _sold _it. Not for me to decide.

*BUT*

I'm willing to bet she'll want 7 lb of clean fleece returned to her and will next complain that it isn't 7 lb when it is returned.

I would give her links on how to properly scour a fleece or tell her to ask her friends to show her how.

You are now going to be out time, money, water, detergent to clean this fleece for her & I'll bet she'll she still won't be satisfied.

It's one thing to be a good fellow about it and quite another to be taken advantage of. IMHO, she's taking advantage of you.

Hopefully she hasn't sent it back to you and you can give her links. If she has sent it, I would not open it and refuse delivery on it and have it sent back.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

I also hope you don't replace her fleece with OTHER clean fibers. 7lbs. of fleece is a lot of wool. If I were to do what you are doing I would just deal only with what she returns to you. DO NOT give her any fleece other than what she paid for. Don't substitute!!!


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

can't agree more.
hurts me to see that somebody (here sbanks) is getting pulled over the table.
makes me almost mad.


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## FMO3 (Nov 22, 2009)

Ok...I was not going to reply to this post, as I do sell massive amounts of wool both wholesale and to handspinners. The more I read about what is going on, the ----ed off I am getting that someone is trying to play Wal-Mart with you.

Plain and simple, you owe her not a d**n thing!!! As she can NOT return the item in a sellable manner. Because she "gave" away some, well she thought it was good enough to give her friends, then its good enough for her. She went past a "normal" time frame on returns, or getting back with you about the item being no what you said it was. So, sorry for being this way, but, she got what she paid for, and now its up to her to like it...if not, put in the bin, as most of the wool in the US goes into the bin anyway.

Let me give you a little background on wool selling. This past year, I sold right about 150 fleeces to hand spinners, and over 12 tons of baled wool to woolen mills. All the baled wool, was on contract...I will state on what the wool grade will be, and a yield number for them. Like 48 grade (mostly what I deal with) and 68% yield. Now, I have to make sure it will grade at a 48 and yield 68%. Most of the time the yield I give will be UNDER the true yield. That way they can not come and say that I sent them something else. Same with grade...about 75% of the wool will be 48's but, 25% will be a higher grade say a 52's.

Now, with hand spinners its a different story. They want everything to be clean of anything and just the perfect fleece. Well most of the time I charge in the $5 pound price range, and flat out tell them that these are farm flock fleeces. Not, raised for spinners per-say, but are clean, they are going to have dirt, maybe mud, some VM, and god for bid...second cuts. But, you are getting a fleece at half the price, so you can put some elbow grease to it. Most of the Romney fleeces I sell are whites, I tell them if there is marking color on them, if there is a stain and all that. 

This year, I had a lady that said, I did not represent the fleece well. That I did not disclosed that there was some VM in it. I told her, fine, box it up and send it back to me, and when I receive it in the order that it was shipped I would give her money, postage AND $15 for handling fee. But, it was to shipped within 3 days with a tracking number. She wrote back and said, that she washed some of it and was spinning on it. That she would send me back, the rest that was not any good. That is when the war was on...I sent her back a reply, that basically said that I would not do a refund at all. Since, she thought it was good enough to use some of it, that if it was that major of a concern, then she would not want it in her house, barn or anywhere. She would want rid of it, at that point. Not, to wash some up and start to use it. I got back a nice little *ranting* e-mail on how she was going to make sure I never sold a fleece again to hand spinners, and I would loose all my wool market. But, when infact all she caused was a land slide of orders for me...as WHO gives a return $15 for handling? Heck, you can make money off of it, if you really thought about it. But, as most say, what I say the wool is, its really better when they get it. 

The fact is, you did not give a few lock pictures....that I TOTALLY HATE, when people do. You gave a shot of the fleece, in it you can see there is VM...infact you gave a good enough picture, that I can see there is a piece of straw in the upper left corner...and an alfalfa leaf in the upper right hand corner. Plus, there is some matting down at the lower left corner on the locks. Heck, what more would you want to know about the wool? The last time the animal took a pee?

Also, let her file with BBB...I have had files against me. The part most don't look at, is if you represent the item in a true format, of what it is...like you have done with the pics. You get the ok...they get a nice $150 bill for filing a false claim. That is why I tell people when they want to start selling to hand spinners, to make sure you don't give grades, micron counts, or ANYTHING you can not back up. I am a wool grader, so I feel fine with grading out wool and have the paper to prove it. But, I have bought fleeces before, that said, they was "fine" wool and they graded out at about a 54 grade, that is middle of the road for medium wool. So I write back and ask who was the grader on the wool? As I want to make sure, they know once you are putting a grade on it, it can be held against you for not being that grade.

Hope this helps.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Very well said FM03, thank you for giving a professional point of view


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

There isn't really anything the BBB can do, especially if you are not a member. It is not the kiss of death. Besides, you have proof that you presented the wool fairly, and that she waited beyond the return date. She's yanking your chain.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Great response, FM


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## sbanks (Dec 19, 2010)

FMO3 said:


> Ok...I was not going to reply to this post, as I do sell massive amounts of wool both wholesale and to handspinners. The more I read about what is going on, the ----ed off I am getting that someone is trying to play Wal-Mart with you.
> 
> Plain and simple, you owe her not a d**n thing!!! As she can NOT return the item in a sellable manner. Because she "gave" away some, well she thought it was good enough to give her friends, then its good enough for her. She went past a "normal" time frame on returns, or getting back with you about the item being no what you said it was. So, sorry for being this way, but, she got what she paid for, and now its up to her to like it...if not, put in the bin, as most of the wool in the US goes into the bin anyway.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for this. It has helped me a lot. She still has not returned the 7 lbs so I think I will tell her to use it or not.

All that washing for someone else could be used washing fleece for me to make into art batts and yarn to sell.

I will just have to deal with the flack from the facebook group we are both members of. I stated the product and produced pictures of the product as is with VM and I am not the one in the wrong.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

EXACTLY!!!! If she hasn't returned it by not just tell her, you snooze, you lose (well not really) but she is just making it all worse and worse.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

Curious how this is working out.


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## FMO3 (Nov 22, 2009)

Trust me...there will be LITTLE flack from people. As most people I have dealt with, are good people. I just did up my mailing list tonight, and I have about 800 people on there...that is not counting the people that want a certain breed, when I come across them. This are people that are looking for good sound wool, at a good price. I was just at the Rhinebeck show, took some 6 month clips with me. They was kinda of clean, but had straw and stuff in them. Nothing real fancy by any means. Put up a sign saying I had about 50 of these fleeces in the trailer, name a FAIR price and you can pick out the ones you want. I sold every last one of them the first day, out of the trailer. The highest price was the first lady that got to pick, and she paid $20 for a black romney fleece...the last lady of the day...right at feeding/trimming time. Ask how many I had left, told her about 10. That they was short...2 to 2.5 inches long, and had more VM in them. As they had been picked over. She looked at me and said...whats a fair price? I told her, $100 and you can have them all, if she could take them right then. Well needless to say...when she came around the corner, I think her little Honda car was on two wheels!!! She packed them up and was happy, as she said, for that price she could throw out half of them and still be ahead.

That started a landslide, as all day Sunday, I had to tell people right and left. That I had NO more wool for sale...but I did have business cards!!! Got home at 1am on monday morning, and had about 10 e-mails of people wanting wool. Yes, I sold them cheap, reason being, I did not want to mess with them at all!!! You got a full fleece with the belly and butt removed that was all. Most weighed in the 6 to 10 pound range, heck if I really know. As it was per bag, no splits or things like that...it was all or nothing. But, this goes back to what you have dealt with...you was honest, and people see that. People like dealing with honest people. As they said in marketing class in college...word of mouth is told to 1000 people. 999 about the bad, and 1 about the good. But, over 900 will go and look at what was so bad, and most of the time try it for themselves. I find that true, and also, it gets more people looking at your product. Heck, Paris Hilton, proved to the whole country, that even BAD publicity is still publicity!!!!


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

She "tryed" to clean? Heck, I know someone that Bleached a fleece. There is no way to know what the woman has done to the fleece and blames you.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

I've been thinking about this. I'm very interested in knowing what happened.


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