# LGDs roaming.



## Avodah (Jun 20, 2016)

Hello, I am looking for some advice. We were extremely hesitant to purchase LGDs because we have heard running off/eating livestock/ etc stories. After our donkey killed a lamb last year, we decided we should probably start looking for a well trained LGD as we were nervous to try and train out ourselves. We found a pair, about 18 months old,(Great Pyrenees) who were being sold. The owner is a dog trainer and they were LGDs for their flock, but they had to sell their sheep. So we went ahead and brought them home. The boys are very gentle and kind and are good with he sheep, but they get our every so often and come up to the house. Which isn't great but we assumed we would just need to keep working with them. Well yesterday they got out and ran all the way to my neighbors house about a mile away. 

So I am wondering if you all could give my some advice. We raise sheep, 20 ewes at the moment, and rotational graze about 50 acres. We have 5 strand electric fence that I'm guessing they are jumping over or pushing under? We cannot alter our fencing, there is just too much of it. I know of so many people with our same setup using LGDs and I'm just thinking that maybe our dogs are not properly bonded and weren't trained to our same system at the start so this will be an ongoing problem? I just don't know how I can border train them to 50 acres. I am more than happy to work with them. I think I can carve out 30min a day for it. I just don't know where to start. 

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

How long have you had the dogs?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

If they are 18 months old, then they are just pups. And pups are going to roam, nothing short of a chain link fence will hold them. If they were my dogs, I would figure out which one is the leader and tie that one in the pasture with the sheep. The other one will probably stay with his partner. Now someone is going to go off on me for suggesting that anyone should tie up a dog. And my reply hasn't changed in forty years. Tying up a dog, is better then burying a dog. Roaming dogs get shot, or hit with a car.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

We have had guardians for many years now. This is a perennial problem. With our roaming dogs we set up what we call zip lines. Thousand plus feet of cable running the length of the pasture on the ground, attached to posts at each end. Then they have a four foot chain that is attached to the cable, giving them a lot of movement, but restricted movement. Make sure they have good swivels, and you need to change the clip you have that runs against the cable from time to time as they wear through. This works really well. It is too bad that they won’t stay in.

In future we intend to get gps collars but they are pricy.


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## Avodah (Jun 20, 2016)

altair said:


> How long have you had the dogs?


About 3 months


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## Avodah (Jun 20, 2016)

muleskinner2 said:


> If they are 18 months old, then they are just pups. And pups are going to roam, nothing short of a chain link fence will hold them. If they were my dogs, I would figure out which one is the leader and tie that one in the pasture with the sheep. The other one will probably stay with his partner. Now someone is going to go off on me for suggesting that anyone should tie up a dog. And my reply hasn't changed in forty years. Tying up a dog, is better then burying a dog. Roaming dogs get shot, or hit with a car.


 So are you saying that roaming is just a “young dog” thing and they will just grow out of it? What age will they grow out of it? Thanks!


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## Avodah (Jun 20, 2016)

farmerDale said:


> We have had guardians for many years now. This is a perennial problem. With our roaming dogs we set up what we call zip lines. Thousand plus feet of cable running the length of the pasture on the ground, attached to posts at each end. Then they have a four foot chain that is attached to the cable, giving them a lot of movement, but restricted movement. Make sure they have good swivels, and you need to change the clip you have that runs against the cable from time to time as they wear through. This works really well. It is too bad that they won’t stay in.
> 
> In future we intend to get gps collars but they are pricy.


 I would give that a try but in 2 months we will be moving the sheep every other day so I don’t think I could swing that 😂


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Avodah said:


> What age will they grow out of it? Thanks!


My Anatolian was still roaming at twelve. I still have his mate, she is 14 now. She lives in my yard on a chain, and barks all night to keep the coyotes away.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

farmerDale said:


> get gps collars


A gps collar might tell you where they are, but it won't keep them home.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

muleskinner2 said:


> A gps collar might tell you where they are, but it won't keep them home.


I mean the wireless gps collars that give them a shock when they get close to the perimeter. You walk the perimeter and it marks it, and when the collar gets close it gives off a warning beep. If they keep going towards the boundary, they get zapped. As I said they are pricey.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Avodah said:


> So are you saying that roaming is just a “young dog” thing and they will just grow out of it? What age will they grow out of it? Thanks!


Nope, not just a young dog thing, at least in our experience. Ive never seen them roam while young as much as they do once older. And if you end up with one roamer, and you have multiple dogs, good luck, because you will have multiple roamers. LGDs have such a big need for space. It’s a tough thing. They do always come home if they get off, but still I don’t like it.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Mom's part time dog lives a few miles from her house. Everyone on the dog's route knows her. This particular dog would probably stay home if she was fed and treated well. 

Your dogs might not know they are supposed to stay with you. They were older when you got them and used to another home. Have you tried walking the perimeter with them? How long did you take to acclimate them to their new herd?


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

farmerDale said:


> I mean the wireless gps collars that give them a shock when they get close to the perimeter. You walk the perimeter and it marks it, and when the collar gets close it gives off a warning beep. If they keep going towards the boundary, they get zapped. As I said they are pricey.


The "invisible fence" does not work for all dogs...I had a part Aussie who would focus so intently while chasing a rabbit he'd run right through the fence - then, after not catching the rabbit, sit on the outside of the fence whining to get back in....Shaved neck, longer prongs....noting worked.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Wolf mom said:


> The "invisible fence" does not work for all dogs...I had a part Aussie who would focus so intently while chasing a rabbit he'd run right through the fence - then, after not catching the rabbit, sit on the outside of the fence whining to get back in....Shaved neck, longer prongs....noting worked.


Oh great…


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Seems to me that two dogs will always roam. Seems to me that a breed that barks all night would soon need a new home. Seems to me that the solution to a donkey killing a lamb isn't buying a pair of LGD. A solution could be a variety of things, depending on your situation. Seems to me that a LGD for a homestead flock isn't a good solution.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Sometimes having a dog that barks all night is a good thing. Mom and Pop are far enough from neighbors that the neighbors never heard their dog barking at night. They have had deer and raccoons raiding the garden since they had to have their dog put down.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Build a fence that a LGD will stay in and it also serves as a fence to keep coyotes out. That way you can just forgo the whole LGD pyramid puppy mill scheme. I prefer coyotes personally, they pencil out much more economically, and if I don't like one's behavior, I can shoot it, and nobody will care.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

muleskinner2 said:


> If they are 18 months old, then they are just pups. And pups are going to roam, nothing short of a chain link fence will hold them. If they were my dogs, I would figure out which one is the leader and tie that one in the pasture with the sheep. The other one will probably stay with his partner. Now someone is going to go off on me for suggesting that anyone should tie up a dog. And my reply hasn't changed in forty years. Tying up a dog, is better then burying a dog. Roaming dogs get shot, or hit with a car.


There are ups and downs to tethering one of the two for training. I don't doubt that the free dog will stay with the other and this is the positive. But when unteathered you could be teaching both dogs a down side: I'm loose. Lets go play and have some fun! I have no idea how to get around this as the dogs somehow need to be untrained of leaving the critters they are supposed to protect. You can't put just one out there as the other will probably come back home looking for his buddy.

We have a similar but different problem with 3 Catahoulas. Our house, outbuildings and pens are inside a perimeter fence (900' of 5' non-climb). If two or all three get outside of the perimeter fence they say to each other "We're free! Let's go hunting!. If just one they say right with us or within eyesight. Inside of the pens they do great with the pigs and will head an escapee back and into the pens. If two or three are out they could kill it. We have given up trying to undo this - Catahoulas are just too darned head strong. So if a pig is out only one Cat is out.


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

Have you done any boundary training with them? Fences are a human construct; they don't exist in an animal's world without help to tell them what you expect.

Here's a link to a great LGD training page: Farei Kennels Shepherd Training


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

JRHill02 said:


> You can't put just one out there as the other will probably come back home looking for his buddy.


I don't tie the leader at home, I tie them in the center of the pasture with the goats. If the loose dog insists on running away, I shoot them and go get another one. My guard dogs are not pets, they are working dogs. Those that don't work don't last long.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

altair said:


> Have you done any boundary training with them? Fences are a human construct; they don't exist in an animal's world without help to tell them what you expect.
> 
> Here's a link to a great LGD training page: Farei Kennels Shepherd Training


I'm not the OP but in our case: kind'a or as best we can. We live in dense, remote forest. The boundary fence I put in was to keep predators and varmints out, not necessarily to keep the dogs in. We've had turkeys, geese, ducks, chickens and piglets stolen by bobcats. We've have feed cans toppled and emptied by bear. Then Coyotes, badgers, ravens and on and on. So that was the reason for the fence and it solved 99% of the problems except for the ravens and wire/harness/hose chewing wood rats. The raven issue was mostly solved by putting chicken wire roofs over bird pens. We still may get a piglet stolen by a raven but its pretty rare although they still shop from tree tops. (Besides, I kind of admire ravens as smart and cunning as they are.)

So as far as the Catahoulas, as smart and stubborn as _they_ are, the roaming/hunting issue was solved by only letting one out at a time and not on their own because the one dog is out to watch our back which it does. We don't need LGDs in a pasture to guard livestock as in the OP. But I sure understand the problem. And a Pyrenees is a whole different temperament than a Catahoula and hence the training is as well. A Catahoula in the woods is like an adolescent in a toy or candy shop - there's just too much temptation.

As for the OP, wouldn't it be cool if there was a perimeter wireless shock collar that would work with the electric fence? I've had good success with the systems for dogs when I lived in the city many years ago. With a smart dog (like a G.Shep) it didn't take very long at all.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

muleskinner2 said:


> I don't tie the leader at home, I tie them in the center of the pasture with the goats. If the loose dog insists on running away, I shoot them and go get another one. My guard dogs are not pets, they are working dogs. Those that don't work don't last long.


I certainly understand that view. The dog(s) serve me, not the other way around. But in our household they are also pets and that makes ending their tenure difficult.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

JRHill02 said:


> I certainly understand that view. The dog(s) serve me, not the other way around. But in our household they are also pets and that makes ending their tenure difficult.


I didn't say it was easy. I usually cry like a baby, but that is better than giving the dog away, and passing the problem on to someone else.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

My dogs tend to stay with the herd. Sure, they may try to expand their boundaries from time to time, but neighbors know them, and a couple neighbors actually welcome the dogs on their land, because it keeps the coyotes away.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

I made a mistake with my Pyrenees. I was told to put him out with what I wanted him to guard and let him live there. He was just six weeks old and I couldn't throw him out with the animals. I raised him as a pet and he decided he was supposed to guard me. He is doing a great job and takes his job very seriously;


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Our dogs are highly disciplined.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

One of your dogs looks just like a pig.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Danaus29 said:


> One of your dogs looks just like a pig.


I keep thinking I should make an appointment with the Vet for that one.


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