# Gas at $7 a gallon?



## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

I was down at our local conveniance store today and overheard two men talking about gas will be up to $7 a gallon by the end of July. Has anyone here heard about this? I've searched around on the net but have not found anything mentioned about this. 

If this is true there will be many people that just simply will not be able to drive to work anymore. My wife was working in a town approximately 25 miles away for a mere $9.25 an hour and it was taking a big part of her paycheck just to drive to work. She got canned last Friday, but even if she still had the job and had to drive on $7. a gallon she would not be able to afford to go to work. 

It's just gonna turn Ka-otic if we have to continue to live on these gas prices. The small public school I drive a school bus for is getting cut back another $50,000 on top of what they got cut back from last year. Any support personel that quits, gets fired, or retires will not be replaced and they might be planning on cutting down on the number of buses they run. Will crowd more students onto fewer buses. This will not be good as the bus drivers will have to drive longer time and miles with more students and no extra pay. But it's a job, if your hurtin for money.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

I've heard $5 by July, which is a bit more believeable. It's $4.15 here for the reg. unleaded.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

I've "heard" a lot of things.

If anyone has faith that it will reach these prices, get a few 55 gallon barrels, fill them up NOW (below 4) and you can sell it for 6 when everyone else is buying it for 7... or you can use it yourself, either way.

My guess is though, that not many people believe it will be at 7 bucks by July, so I don't imagine a bunch of folks will go out and buy large quantities now.

Edited to add: That reads harder than I intended and it isn't for the two posters above, just an "in general" statement.

Main point: If you believe it, do something about it now, cause you won't be able to then.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

I have read you can store gas with some added chemical, but what about diesel. Can you also store that for any length of time?


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

Pri-D, works for both. This was a sunject a few weeks back about storing petroleum.

At this point, I am gearing for gas to go higher, how mch higher, cannot say.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

It is my honest opinion that gas will continue to rise until there is major protest or people stop buying gas. If they stop buying gas then the price will stabilize at that point, major protests - there will be gas shortages. 

[not really that my opinion matters, jest sayin']


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Explorer said:


> I have read you can store gas with some added chemical, but what about diesel. Can you also store that for any length of time?


I believe they have an additive for diesel. But you can store it quite a while anyway. The issue is moisture.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Shine said:


> It is my honest opinion that gas will continue to rise until there is major protest or people stop buying gas. If they stop buying gas then the price will stabilize at that point, major protests - there will be gas shortages.
> 
> [not really that my opinion matters, jest sayin']


I really don't know what protests will do. Do you really think people in the middle east care?

I mean this sincerely.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

I can see $7 for the boaters on the lake and don't have a hard time seeing $5.50 or so for highway usage by july...Pretty sure it won't be dropping anytime soon 'tho.
Matt


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## Rootdigger (Jan 26, 2011)

Yes, they have PRI-D for diesel and PRI-G for gas, they also have an algicide for diesel for long term storage. I have used the conditioners for years and swear by them, I get snowed in for 6 months of the year and have to store 10 55 gallon drums, just triple wrap them, first garbage bag, then plastic sheet, then tin roofing is what I use. You don't want so much as a drop of water near the bung or it will get in. I love PRI but I have had a sneaky suspicion recently, a few years back my generator started running rough with wild power fluctuations I was worried would ruin sensitive electronics. It turned out that the spark arrestor was fouled with this weird oxidized stuff the mechanic had never seen before and the machine could not push the exhaust out. I just had the same problem, cleaned the spark arrestor and I am all good. I have a broken down yamaha Rhino about 3 miles away I got sick of snowshoeing back and forth to fix and the symptoms indicate it is either a fuel filter or fuel pump and I have replaced both and it is still sputtering with no power. It just dawned on me yesterday to check the spark arrestor on that too. Just FYI, if you run PRI keep this in the back of your mind.


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## Reddirt (Apr 9, 2008)

My wife was told by the owner of a local gas station that gas will be at least $5.00 by this summer.I think if the owner's are thinking this it's probably true.


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

It was predicted back last Jan/Feb that gas would reach $5. by Oct. 2011. It's almost $4. now where I live, so I can easily believe it would reach $5 by this summer. Everytime I pull up to the pumps it's 6 - 7 cents higher then the last time.


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

They cut bus routes here too this year and there have been talks about not running busses at all next year.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

You can cut the carp real fast. Look at the stock prices of the companies that would benefit. If you see the stock skyrocket, things will happen. COG and the retail gas companies are indicators.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2011)

IF gas were to reach $7 by July, it would throw our economy into a tailspin.

Well, I mean a faster tailspin than it's at now.


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## mypatriotsupply (Jan 21, 2009)

ladycat said:


> IF gas were to reach $7 by July, it would throw our economy into a tailspin.
> 
> Well, I mean a faster tailspin than it's at now.


Good clarification. No I do not believe it will hit $7 by July. Incrementalism has always been the technique of choice with these things, for the most part anyhow. $5 wouldn't surprise me at all, maybe even a bit higher.


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## prairiecomforts (May 28, 2006)

I am sure that if it reaches even $5 it will simply change the way a lot of people live. We live 60 miles from the nearest shopping area and typically are in town on average at least once a week and sometimes twice. (More if the kids' sports are in season.) If gas goes up much more - I know right now that we will be cutting down those trip dramactically! Maybe just once every 3 weeks - maybe less.


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## TooManyHobbies! (Mar 27, 2011)

At $7 a gallon, I'd be REALLY glad that I located myself so close to work and also bought a car that gets 38 mpg! 

For the summer months, at least, I'll only need about a gallon of gas a week in my car. Come fall, it'll go back up to 2-3 gallons. Even at 7 gallons, I can manage that. 

I also have the option of getting my bike out, but honestly, I'm not enthralled with that option. Maybe if gas hit $10...

Of course, this doesn't account for what would happen to my grocery prices and everything else...


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

Unless your in california where you need "custom blended" CARB gas, I dont see it hitting $7.


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## wishbone (Mar 5, 2011)

5 dollars by summer, it'll probably be 5 dollars by the end of may, Americans should step right out and buy themselves another gas guzzeling,4X4, crew cab PU or another SUV to ride the rds alone in. Our greed has depleted the supplies and now we live with it. The only petro that will store long term today is kerocene


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

wishbone said:


> 5 dollars by summer, it'll probably be 5 dollars by the end of may, Americans should step right out and buy themselves another gas guzzeling,4X4, crew cab PU or another SUV to ride the rds alone in. Our greed has depleted the supplies and now we live with it.


Your greedy? I'm not. :teehee:


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

wishbone said:


> 5 dollars by summer, it'll probably be 5 dollars by the end of may, Americans should step right out and buy themselves another gas guzzeling,4X4, crew cab PU or another SUV to ride the rds alone in. Our greed has depleted the supplies and now we live with it. The only petro that will store long term today is kerocene


Our greed stopped us from drilling our own oil? WOW, makes sense to me. :umno:


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Low supplies are not the issue, there is plenty of oil and the price per barrel was not high up till recently....it is all 'speculation', and inflation that is driving the prices.

We all know that the higher gas goes the worse our economy will get, I would hope at $7 per gallon that we would open up the reserves to bring the price down...hopefully BEFORE it gets that high.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Here's a good idea......
Let's give BILLIONS of dollars to Brazil, and THEY can drill for oil off THEIR coast, and we can buy it from them.

Let's give them billions.
Then pay them for the oil, we paid them to drill for?

huh?

Ok, I am going to open my own lemonaide stand.
YOU give me the money to build it, open it and operate it.
Then when you are thirsty, I am going to CHARGE YOU whatever I feel like charging you, for the lemonaid.

THAT is a brilliant business plan.......IF YOU'RE ME!!!

Or is it that Obama doesn't see Brazillians as 'important' as Americans? I mean, if the oil rig blows up.....it's not like any Americans are gonna die, it's just Brazillians. No biggy.
Is that it? The president thinks of them as 'disposable'????

Greed. HA. Whatever on the greed.
Last time I flew in Airforce One, or cruised around in the presidential limo.....oh, that's right, I drive a mini van.....


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Well....picture what happened in the gulf...around the entire US seaboard....No thanks.

There are viable SUSTAINABLE options.....open your mind;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11832559



http://www.motherearthnews.com/Nature-Community/Great-Places-Rock-Port-Missouri.aspx


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1


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## Ryan NC (Jan 29, 2009)

what you are seeing a cross effect of the oil drilling ban and corporate greed, have a friend that manages a good part of the drilling along our coast line and he estimated $5/gal this summer the day they signed the "temporary" ban. 

What really gets me is the "will not be able to drive to work anymore" part that people keep talking about... assuming it does hit $7 a gallon and 50 miles round trip to work that's about 3.5 gallons using an older pickup to get there (14 miles/gallon) or about $25. Even a minimum wage job pays $60/day so you are going to be up money by keeping the job. 

YES it is a huge hit to the bottom line but do you have to drive a 14 MPG (insert what ever low MPG vehicle you want) to work? NOPE. If you get a tax refund (anyone at near minimum wage is) You can raise your deductions on your W9 thus adding more money to your pay check in the form of reduced tax reductions cutting your refund and putting it to usable form now. Suck it up and use $500 to buy a small 4 popper beater to get back and forth to work...

Assuming you go from 14 MPG to 25 MPG (very easy to do) you are going to save $55/week in gas at $7/gal add that to around another $50/week by changing your W9 and it would take you 5 weeks to pay for the beater putting you back to where you are right now driving the 14 MPG vehicle with $3.50/gallon gas. Remember the uproar when gas topped $1? That wasn't long ago and I honestly think we'll see gas touch $10/gallon before 5 years pass. 

Sorry if this all comes off as harsh but it's really burns my butt lately to hear folks whining about gas cost when they are driving gas guzzlers. You can pick up used vehicles for $500-2000 without much effort that get anywhere from 25-45 MPG. It's not a God given right to drive a huge SUV even tho you "need" it because (insert excuse here)... 

Gas prices are going to go up, I'm not happy about it but there is nothing I can do about it. Corporate greed has figured out that the American public will pay what ever they want for the liquid gold as it's ingrained in our everyday lives nowadays. If it's really going to break you financially look in to a moped, nope they ain't sexy but but at near 100 MPG I bet you can make ends meet. I'll get off my :soap: now. ;-)


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

kirkmcquest said:


> Low supplies are not the issue, there is plenty of oil and the price per barrel was not high up till recently....it is all 'speculation', and inflation that is driving the prices.
> 
> We all know that the higher gas goes the worse our economy will get, I would hope at $7 per gallon that we would open up the reserves to bring the price down...hopefully BEFORE it gets that high.


The falling dollar is the cause of commodity price increases more than inflation.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Explorer said:


> The falling dollar is the cause of commodity price increases more than inflation.


The falling dollar IS inflation. The dollar is falling because they are inflating the money supply. The terms 'inflation' and 'falling dollar' are synonymous.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

wishbone said:


> 5 dollars by summer, it'll probably be 5 dollars by the end of may, Americans should step right out and buy themselves another gas guzzeling,4X4, crew cab PU or another SUV to ride the rds alone in. Our greed has depleted the supplies and now we live with it. The only petro that will store long term today is kerocene


.

What we're seeing is speculation driven prices. There's plenty of supply. There's places in WV they're having problems getting the oil from natural gas wells hauled off. Congress made the changes that allowed speculators that don't take delivery of oil to inflate the market. We've got the foxes, the lobbyists, in charge of the hen house. And now Congress is going to investigate to show the stupid voters they're concerned about prices. What a joke. Companies like Goldman and Sachs are making billions off the speculation. All because of Congress.

Diesel will store as long as kerosene. They are both oils. If you live in the Southeast add a biocide to handle contamination from algae, fungus, bacteria or yeast in that climate. If you get water from condensation in the diesel use a water separator on your equipment. That means if you store diesel in a tank vented to the atmosphere, you need to use water separators. Most vehicles have them anyway.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

it seems that we have a lot of threads about the price of gas lately. First it was $5 by summer....we're almost there. So now we have to up it to $7 to get the same shock factor? Maybe they can make it a lotto game? How much will gas be on ___________(write in date and time)?


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

kirkmcquest said:


> The falling dollar IS inflation. The dollar is falling because they are inflating the money supply. The terms 'inflation' and 'falling dollar' are synonymous.


Not true. The value of the dollar is falling faster than inflation is increasing (%). The dollar is valued in comparison to world wide currencies while inflation is a just the US (for us).


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Callieslamb said:


> it seems that we have a lot of threads about the price of gas lately. First it was $5 by summer....we're almost there. So now we have to up it to $7 to get the same shock factor? Maybe they can make it a lotto game? How much will gas be on ___________(write in date and time)?


Seven dollar gasoline will kill this country. I don't expect $7. I think $5 or slightly above will happen and is going to create so much economic disincentive you'll see losses in any industry that depends on people traveling. If people are staying home now, they'll be staying home more. Gasoline demand over the summer should drop.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Was just reading an article on Mich. roads and spring time "pot holes"

Boy . . . talk about a round and round . . ."Can't fix pot holes without gas tax monies" . . "But travel is WAY down" . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Gonna be a long rough road............


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## mamakatinmd (Aug 21, 2005)

Gas where I am is 1.37 a liter. That makes it about $5.18 a gallon here. I haven't noticed a great change in anyone's patterns.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

perhaps rather then store a lot of volatile/temperamental fuel perhaps some may be in the market for some of these cheap horses that have been flooding the market.

common the Amish do it and many keep them just for lawn ornaments or an occasional ride it seems.

a donkey or mule would be more economical but less desirable for travel. 

I know its not the most practical but here we have miles of trail and back lanes,much better option then walking a long distance I think. 

I see high gas prices creating local markets like it use to be, only the most necessary and least available things will be shipped. people will work closer to home rather then drive multiple miles, bus service and even trains (where available) will be a common mode of transit for those long trips. more ride shareing for those that do not have those available. even shipping will be forced to conform more train and barge/ship freight less
air and truck. how soon this comes to light not sure but it only makes sense.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2011)

||Downhome|| said:


> perhaps rather then store a lot of volatile/temperamental fuel perhaps some may be in the market for some of these cheap horses that have been flooding the market.


That would be practical for SOME people in CERTAIN situations, but at this point in time, it's not practical for MOST people.


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## TooManyHobbies! (Mar 27, 2011)

ladycat said:


> That would be practical for SOME people in CERTAIN situations, but at this point in time, it's not practical for MOST people.


Nor legal for all of us...

Perhaps a bicycle and a cart to pull behind it would be more realistic for most people who do not have massive distances to travel.

People in developing countries use bikes quite effectively. It would be possible in the US, at least for people who don't have great distances to travel.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Ryan NC said:


> what you are seeing a cross effect of the oil drilling ban and corporate greed, have a friend that manages a good part of the drilling along our coast line and he estimated $5/gal this summer the day they signed the "temporary" ban.
> 
> What really gets me is the "will not be able to drive to work anymore" part that people keep talking about... assuming it does hit $7 a gallon and 50 miles round trip to work that's about 3.5 gallons using an older pickup to get there (14 miles/gallon) or about $25. Even a minimum wage job pays $60/day so you are going to be up money by keeping the job.
> 
> ...


I agree on an individual basis we could deal with 7 even 10 dollar a gallon gas the trouble is that fuel isn't just used for folks driving to work. I drive a full-sized pickup now, if I had to I could ride a moped. 

I help haul can milk (from the Amish) one day a week. The average load is about 16,000 pounds a day year round. There is no hauling milk in a smaller truck. It takes what it takes. Also once you start getting into vehicles over a certain size fuel economy doesn't go down with the larger trucks. I drove a little Isuzu NPR four cylinder diesel cab over hauling milk. It got 8 mpg. I drove a big Ford F-800 with a 20 foot box, it got 10 mpg. A farmer can't car pool in a combine and there is no such thing as a compact semi. With fuel prices it isn't so much how much it'll cost me to fill the tank as much as how much I am going to have to pay extra for everything else.



||Downhome|| said:


> perhaps rather then store a lot of volatile/temperamental fuel perhaps some may be in the market for some of these cheap horses that have been flooding the market.
> 
> common the Amish do it and many keep them just for lawn ornaments or an occasional ride it seems.
> 
> ...


An enclosed bike would be much better than a horse if you are going to walk somewhere. If I had to use a horse it would only be because there was absolutely no fuel available and I needed to haul something heavier than what a bike could carry. The Amish do use horses but they rely heavily on the English to get them anywhere that is over 5 miles away. I've come to the conclusion that the Amish are no more immune to higher fuel prices than we are. If you have something that has an electric motor chances are the Amish have the same thing with a gas motor (well pumps, farm equipment, wringer washer, ect). Not to mention that Amish need kerosene to light their homes. I know last time fuel went up over 4 a gallon I heard a lot of complaining amongst the Amish about it.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

mamakatinmd said:


> Gas where I am is 1.37 a liter. That makes it about $5.18 a gallon here. *I haven't noticed a great change in anyone's patterns*.


It's the same here and there hasn't been any changes in patterns even though Canadians generally drive longer distances than they do in America. 

The thing that needs to be taken into account though is that Canada isn't like America. Canada has always had much higher gas prices than America - (and higher taxes and higher expenses for everything compared to USA) - so we are accustomed to it and we've learned how to accomodate ourselves to increasing costs. We have already compensated for it years ago, we have different spending habits and different ways of budgeting for our costs. What is already a normal part of Canadian lifestyle and therefore more easily taken in stride by Canadians is a hardship for the folks down south who now have to develop new spending habits and less common-place daily dependency on oil and gasoline.

Another thing too is that although Canada's gas prices are presently rising just like everywhere else in the world, by comparison on an incremental basis the gas prices are now rising much faster in America than they are in Canada. Their economy has crashed but ours hasn't. Their unemployment rate is higher than ours is now. America is more dependent on and operates on oil and gasoline in a much bigger way than Canada. Increasing gas prices is going to effect Americans in a much more devestating way than it would be for Canada because it's just not something they're accustomed to.

.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

you must live a lot closer to town then I phil.

as far as illegal care to cite specific laws, TMH? please I am only aware of motor vehicle laws and of course interstate restrictions on motor size.

I agree it would not be practical for all but the higher gas goes the more practical it becomes for all. 

there would still be uses for a car or truck but less actual use.

seems every one keeps asking for a solar power/ green energy vehicle cant think of a better one myself?


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

||Downhome|| said:


> you must live a lot closer to town then I phil.


Maybe. I live 12 miles from town. I've biked to town a few times but quit because the only good way into town is the highway which is heavily traveled. After a few close calls and getting hit by a van I quit. 



||Downhome|| said:


> I agree it would not be practical for all but the higher gas goes the more practical it becomes for all.


An Amish told me once that they usually get about 6000 miles on a buggy horse before they are shot. He quit ridding his buggy to work because he thought he was putting too many miles on his horse. I gave him rides home everyday in my truck because of this. 

It takes a bit of work to keep a horse in a northern climate. For myself it would be easier not to harvest hay (which would be difficult by hand) and brew my own alcohol fuel for when I need to transport something larger than myself. Gas would have to be either outrageous in price (15 dollars plus a gallon) or flat out not available for me not to run a gas powered vehicle (small car/moped whatever).


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

naturelover said:


> It's the same here and there hasn't been any changes in patterns even though Canadians generally drive longer distances than they do in America.
> 
> The thing that needs to be taken into account though is that Canada isn't like America. Canada has always had much higher gas prices than America - (and higher taxes and higher expenses for everything compared to USA) - so we are accustomed to it and we've learned how to accomodate ourselves to increasing costs. We have already compensated for it years ago, we have different spending habits and different ways of budgeting for our costs. What is already a normal part of Canadian lifestyle and therefore more easily taken in stride by Canadians is a hardship for the folks down south who now have to develop new spending habits and less common-place daily dependency on oil and gasoline.
> 
> ...


I wonder what our gas prices would be if our dollar was in the sixty some cent price range as oposed to over par which it is at now?


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2011)

||Downhome|| said:


> as far as illegal care to cite specific laws, TMH? please I am only aware of motor vehicle laws and of course interstate restrictions on motor size.


Many cities have ordinances against horses.



PhilJohnson said:


> It takes a bit of work to keep a horse in a northern climate. For myself it would be easier not to harvest hay (which would be difficult by hand


Would be nice to live where you can grow the feed.

We've had too many consecutive years of drouth here. Right now we're in a Class 4 drouth. Normally you see cattle every where. But none this year because there is no grazing. It's so bad that our pasture is not able to support the ONE goat I have (and she's even dry). A horse would not be practical as a cheap mode of transportation around here. Even if it wasn't so far to town.

Edited to add this link, showing the drouth (drought) scale:

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/climate-monitoring/dyk/drought-legend

Definitions: http://www.drought.gov/portal/serve...23_0_43/http;/drought.unl.edu/dm/classify.htm


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## D Lynn (May 26, 2008)

$6.03 a gallon here. People just keep on keepin' on.

I truly believe most people won't really freak out until it's not available anymore. Like when Katrina hit and the media said that there "won't be any gas left at the stations tomorrow!" People freaked out and lined up at the pumps like it was the end of times (way up here int he North!) - as if.... whatever. What will be, will be... and we will probably all be better for it. Just my 2 cents.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

postroad said:


> I wonder what our gas prices would be if our dollar was in the sixty some cent price range as oposed to over par which it is at now?


Do you mean if our dollar was _still_ in the sixty some cent range like it used to be?  LOL, I dread to even think about it. :shocked:

Do you remember, on January 21, 2002 the Canadian dollar was at 61.79Â¢ to the USD, and the cost of a litre of regular gas here in BC was around 55Â¢. Ahh, the good old days, eh? 

Anyway, at a guess, maybe $3.00 - $3.50 a litre here. Maybe a lot more.

From: http://cmte.parl.gc.ca/Content/HOC/committee/372/inst/reports/rp1172416/instrp05/09-ch1-e.htm










.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

I paid $5 a gallon for gas back in 2008; it was in the Chicago area and I was there for an R.E.M. concert. :rock: :bouncy: :dance:

I got my driver's license in January 1981, and at that time, gas was around $1.50 a gallon, equivalent to around $4 now, and there was talk about it being $5 a gallon by 1985, like it was in Europe. :shocked: I'm sure glad that didn't happen. My first car got 12 mpg. :stars:


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

if it came push to shove, I doubt those ordinances would be enforced. more so when a out of town individual was bringing commerce or trade. those in town would not necessarily need to keep a horse,common there in town,phils bike could suffice in that scenario? but they very well could benefit from visitors that did,more so in a scenario where travel was restricted and those folks where traveling between towns.

as far as town ordinance its normally keeping them, here horses are considered a pedestrian thing. there are numerous equestrian/bike/pedestrian trails available.
in the local there are a set of trails that run across private land that are open to use by the locals that run across official trails. though even a non local could use them (the private) as long as they where considerate.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

wishbone said:


> Americans should step right out and buy themselves another gas guzzeling,4X4, crew cab PU or another SUV to ride the rds alone in. Our greed has depleted the supplies and now we live with it. The only petro that will store long term today is kerocene


I'll gladly go out and buy a new hybrid, or all electric vehicle, when they make one that'll haul a ton of feed in the back, pull a trailer with a tractor on it, a gooseneck trailer loaded down with 10 tons of logs or cattle... hybrids are for city folks...

I'll take greed any day over sloth...

I imagine that you, like I, and 99% of the world's population, exists, right now, because of the discovery of cheap oil.



stanb999 said:


> Your greedy? I'm not. :teehee:


I am... I like cheap energy... wish the technology was available for me to burn natural gas in my vehicles... I have free natural gas.



kirkmcquest said:


> Low supplies are not the issue, there is plenty of oil and the price per barrel was not high up till recently....it is all 'speculation', and inflation that is driving the prices.
> 
> We all know that the higher gas goes the worse our economy will get, I would hope at $7 per gallon that we would open up the reserves to bring the price down...hopefully BEFORE it gets that high.


There 'is' plenty... read an article linked on Drudge... saying that 1.31 of the price rise is due to speculation.

Nothing 'will' get done though... the Prez campaigned on $5/gal gas being a good thing.... to push us into alternatives. Something about hope and change...


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

texican said:


> I am... I like cheap energy... wish the technology was available for me to burn natural gas in my vehicles... I have free natural gas.


I can't believe that someone like yourself who strikes me as a tinkerer wouldn't have built your own NG setup :grin: If it was me I would look for NG carb off an old generator and start from there. The biggest problem is range but I don't think it would be any worse than an electric vehicle.


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## rxkeith (Apr 13, 2009)

from g edward griffin who wrote jekyll island, and has studied the bilderberg group for years, gas won't hit 7.00/gal until the end of 2012 when the dollar is just about dead.


keith


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

naturelover said:


> Do you mean if our dollar was _still_ in the sixty some cent range like it used to be?  LOL, I dread to even think about it. :shocked:
> 
> Do you remember, on January 21, 2002 the Canadian dollar was at 61.79Â¢ to the USD, and the cost of a litre of regular gas here in BC was around 55Â¢. Ahh, the good old days, eh?
> 
> Anyway, at a guess, maybe $3.00 - $3.50 a litre here. Maybe a lot more.





My Dad had farm fuel delevered in bulk for 25 cents per gallon in the sixties.

I think I filled up for something in the upper twenty cent per litre range as a teenager. 

We are at the bargain rat of 124.9 and I am still seeing the guys driving their f250 to town for coffee.


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

Ryan NC said:


> what you are seeing a cross effect of the oil drilling ban and corporate greed, have a friend that manages a good part of the drilling along our coast line and he estimated $5/gal this summer the day they signed the "temporary" ban.
> 
> What really gets me is the "will not be able to drive to work anymore" part that people keep talking about... assuming it does hit $7 a gallon and 50 miles round trip to work that's about 3.5 gallons using an older pickup to get there (14 miles/gallon) or about $25. Even a minimum wage job pays $60/day so you are going to be up money by keeping the job.
> 
> ...


Last I heard, mopeds aren't legal on state highways. Maybe why I don't see anyone riding one down the turnpikes and fourlaners. And those little four bangers usually don't have room for a family of 5 along with bringing groceries home from town in. Those little $500 dollar vehicles aren't usually too dependable either. You might get about 1 mile per dollar value before they brake down. 

I'll just keep my passenger van just to keep you on your soapbox! :teehee:


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## VT Chicklit (Mar 22, 2009)

You can thank "Uncle Ben" at the FED for much of the rise in all the prices in recient times. The cost of food, commodities and gas are up, for the most part, because the FED is "printing" money to inflate the dollar. QE1, QE2, and how ever many more Qantitative Easing events they do, will make the costs rise even more because each FRN will be worth less with each additional one that is add to the system. Oil is directly pegged to the US dollar. OPEC knows that Uncle Ben is digitizing billions more FRNs and so OPEC raises the cost of a barrel of oil to compensate for the reduced value of the dollar. Some of the rise is because of speculation, but most of it is because of poor monitary policies at the FED. They want to inflate the money to pay off the US debt with worthless FRNs and they dont care if it hurts the "little people". This is why the big monitary players are moving their money into gold.


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## Ryan NC (Jan 29, 2009)

Oldcountryboy said:


> Last I heard, mopeds aren't legal on state highways. Maybe why I don't see anyone riding one down the turnpikes and fourlaners. And those little four bangers usually don't have room for a family of 5 along with bringing groceries home from town in. Those little $500 dollar vehicles aren't usually too dependable either. You might get about 1 mile per dollar value before they brake down.
> 
> I'll just keep my passenger van just to keep you on your soapbox! :teehee:


I hit a nerve with a couple folks here I think... Visit most any part of Asia and you'll understand my statement... There will be reasons to have larger vehicles to haul product as one of the other posters pointed out. For the common consuming population life will change drastically, those are the people that'll be driving mopeds / or more likely some form of motor cycle here in the states if gas prices become outa reach. 

Having a good back yard mechanic is a benefit you won't soon forget in a time of need be it a $500 beater or a nice newer model truck. Gas prices don't worry me that much, it's the ability of the commercial farmers to deliver food to the sheeple. 

As one other poster mentioned, gas will be bought regardless of price here in the states, people can't do without food which is where I see gas prices really becoming a problem. every uptick in gas creates an up tick in food cost which will not go down, it's a vicious cycle that is playing out right now that I see no positive end to...

Then again the government could just print us all some more moola, raise minimum wage a few more times, and extend us all a personal credit line so we can spend more than we make thus making everything all hunky dory in the land of the free... er is that the land of the government slaves? ahh Heck who cares, let's drink a few beers, get in our gas guzzling truck, and go fishing when we get off on friday night...


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## TooManyHobbies! (Mar 27, 2011)

||Downhome|| said:


> you must live a lot closer to town then I phil.
> 
> as far as illegal care to cite specific laws, TMH? please I am only aware of motor vehicle laws and of course interstate restrictions on motor size.



Look at the town or city ordinances just about anywhere in the U.S. Most require large plots of land far in excess of a normal city lot (or even the average LARGE city lot) before they allow a horse or other "large" livestock (this often includes even small goats...). Even then, people may be limited to one or two such animals, regardless of the size of their property, unless it is zoned agricultural. 

It's important to remember that the bulk of the U.S. population does have strict restrictions on what they can do with their property. Not everyone can live out in the countryside, either. First, there isn't enough space. Second, some of us would have a difficult time working in our careers (and may love our careers) if we located far from work. I lived in the country for 33 years. I'm in a major metro now. It has its benefits, including the availability of a public busline for the possible day when I may not be able to drive. I can't currently physically manage a large property on my own. Preparation isn't just for the day the SHTF or TEOTWAWKI. A horse isn't an option for me or for any of my neighbors.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Half a farm used to be devoted just to produce the feed to power the horses.

Somewhere that has got to figured into the equation.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

postroad said:


> Half a farm used to be devoted just to produce the feed to power the horses.
> 
> Somewhere that has got to figured into the equation.


That is something most people don't figure in. Horses need to eat and be cared for 365 days a year. I can leave my tractor sit for the entire winter without firing it up once. If I am not using it the tractor cost me nothing in time or money. If we went back to draft animals there would be a lot of land being used for nothing but feeding them. When diesel got over 5 bucks a gallon there were a few local farmers talking about buying some sort of bio-diesel machine and growing soybeans. I have a feeling baring some sort of disaster causing fuel shortages that is probably closer to what farmers in the future will be doing.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

postroad said:


> Half a farm used to be devoted just to produce the feed to power the horses.
> 
> Somewhere that has got to figured into the equation.


I remember reading that years ago. Here is an article about that subject.

http://books.google.com/books?id=lf...0>acres devoted to draft animals feed&f=false


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

PhilJohnson said:


> That is something most people don't figure in. Horses need to eat and be cared for 365 days a year. I can leave my tractor sit for the entire winter without firing it up once. If I am not using it the tractor cost me nothing in time or money. If we went back to draft animals there would be a lot of land being used for nothing but feeding them. When diesel got over 5 bucks a gallon there were a few local farmers talking about buying some sort of bio-diesel machine and growing soybeans. I have a feeling baring some sort of disaster causing fuel shortages that is probably closer to what farmers in the future will be doing.


That's true... I have always believed this in general, BUT I also didn't understand the soil much then.

Horses (and other livestock) are vital to fertile soil.


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## Pouncer (Oct 28, 2006)

Over half my state has a pickup in the driveway....seriously. We have two, and neither get mileage to brag about. They'll be parked except for specific hauls that my car can't handle. My little SUV....well, I have always managed to get better MPG than they are advertised for, I average about 24 mpg and never drive highway miles at al;. On the highways at speeds to 65, the blasted thing gets about 29. (Five speed, Saturn VUE) Other than that, we have a couple "quads" as most folks call them-not sure on exact MPG but it's substantial. 

Gas is over $4 a gallon here, and I can tell you that traffic is about 15% less on the main arterial that runs in front of my office, than it was at around $3. 

When we're complaining about spending $120 to fill a pickup, those with larger rigs are paying around $1200 per fuel up. If diesel goes over $5 a gallon, we will be forced to find some other means for hot water, and buy a LOT more firewood. I use about 60 gallons every month for hot water (super crappy heating system) year round. We do have gas piped to the house, and I am going to talk to my hub about finding a gas hot water heater that we can still hook up to the (crappy) forced air heating system. 

Honestly, I don't know why a person can't hook up a fast recovery hot water heater to those??


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## happycat (Dec 22, 2003)

"If this is true there will be many people that just simply will not be able to drive to work anymore. My wife was working in a town approximately 25 miles away for a mere $9.25 an hour and it was taking a big part of her paycheck just to drive to work. She got canned last Friday, but even if she still had the job and had to drive on $7. a gallon she would not be able to afford to go to work"

I don't really understand this logic; I don't know your state tax situation, but if she works 8 hours a day, and take-home is 80% of gross, that's $59 a day. Say the car she's driving gets 20MPG, she would be spending $17.50 a day on gas, which still leaves $41.50 a day, $207.50 per week. 

With gas at $3.50 per gallon, take home is $50.25 a day; $251.25 per week. Really - for $43.75 a week makes it unaffordable? 

Am I missing something? Yes, costs are up dramatically, but are you saying you would rather miss out on $207 a week, than on $44 a week?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

texican said:


> The conversion kits are on eBay.


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

I am not pleased with gas prices either, but folks will not quit buying no matter the price. Fuels are a bargain considering what they do.$7 a gallon, will you walk or ride your bicycle 15 miles for $7? Come spade my 5 acre field for $10? It totally tickles me to see complaining about gas price as they plunk down a dollar for a pint of water.


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## hooked (Mar 18, 2010)

According to this CNN article, gas prices may have already peaked.......in April? Are they that short sighted.:hysterical:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/04/24/ga...us+(RSS:+U.S.)&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

Gas prices rise slower, may have peaked
By Alan Duke, CNNApril 24, 2011 1:11 p.m. EDT

Los Angeles (CNN) -- Gas prices jumped more than 11 cents over the past two weeks, but the pace of higher pump prices has slowed and they may have peaked, according to a survey published Sunday.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

"higher pump prices has slowed and they may have peaked, according to a survey published Sunday. "

Gee, I wonder if we could repeal the law of gravity if we all took a survey and said we thought it was weakening? There are idiots, then there are flaming idiots, then there are news reporters.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Three days ago the price of gas here was $1.38 a litre, today the price is $1.34, so it has gone down 4 cents sometime in the past 3 days.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

I personally HOPE it peaked. I don't get any benefit of higher gas prices. It's not worth it to say "See I told you" to me.

Sign me "Too many kids and baseball games to go to..."


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## TooManyHobbies! (Mar 27, 2011)

Pouncer,

There is always the option if prices go too high of turning off the hot water system entirely. It goes against what most Americans are used to, but it is doable. 

Been there, done that. I've lived without hot water in the U.S. I've also lived with an odd sort of hot water heater in Central America, where some sort of electrical gizmo heated water for a shower as you showered. In the kitchen (for dishes and cooking) we heated water on the stove with a tea kettle. While it was a gas stove, this used far less fuel than keeping a tank of water hot all of the time. My neighbors heated water once a week for laundry over a wood fire, using scraps of wood the kids gathered along the tree lines...


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## gwhilikerz (Aug 7, 2006)

If gas reaches $7 there will be many more people demanding to see that birth certificate!


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

happycat said:


> "If this is true there will be many people that just simply will not be able to drive to work anymore. My wife was working in a town approximately 25 miles away for a mere $9.25 an hour and it was taking a big part of her paycheck just to drive to work. She got canned last Friday, but even if she still had the job and had to drive on $7. a gallon she would not be able to afford to go to work"
> 
> I don't really understand this logic; I don't know your state tax situation, but if she works 8 hours a day, and take-home is 80% of gross, that's $59 a day. Say the car she's driving gets 20MPG, she would be spending $17.50 a day on gas, which still leaves $41.50 a day, $207.50 per week.
> 
> ...


Well you all can do the math on some of quotes I'm gonna post but lets say gas is $7 a gallon. Now we live in the foot hills of the Ozarks where theres a lot of up/down hills and sharp curves. You don't turn the cruise control on unless your taking the turnpike to Tulsa. Other then that your going to be foot feeding the gas and brake pedal a lot. So I'm gonna say we probably get 14(?) miles per gallon and here work was 25 miles away or so. So that's purty much 3 1/2 - 4 gallons per day X 5 days a week. Then take away about $12 - 14 dollars a day for insurance, car payment, parts repair, oil changes and tire replacement. May end up being more then $12 - 14 per day? Add all of this up and it takes a lot of your paycheck just to go to work. It would be more out of a persons paycheck if they are only making minimum wage - $7.50 hr. 

Not much money left to live on if you ask me!


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## TooManyHobbies! (Mar 27, 2011)

Oldcountryboy said:


> Well you all can do the math on some of quotes I'm gonna post but lets say gas is $7 a gallon. Now we live in the foot hills of the Ozarks where theres a lot of up/down hills and sharp curves. You don't turn the cruise control on unless your taking the turnpike to Tulsa. Other then that your going to be foot feeding the gas and brake pedal a lot. So I'm gonna say we probably get 14(?) miles per gallon and here work was 25 miles away or so. So that's purty much 3 1/2 - 4 gallons per day X 5 days a week. Then take away about $12 - 14 dollars a day for insurance, car payment, parts repair, oil changes and tire replacement. May end up being more then $12 - 14 per day? Add all of this up and it takes a lot of your paycheck just to go to work. It would be more out of a persons paycheck if they are only making minimum wage - $7.50 hr.
> 
> Not much money left to live on if you ask me!



Options:
1. Get a small car that gets better gas mileage. 
2) Move closer to town or move to town (GASP!)
3) Figure out alternate arrangements during the work week, such as bunking at a friend's place some nights, in exchange for providing household help. Go to the homestead on weekends. Or, get a camper shell or pickup with camper and find a place (legally or stealth) to park it in town or near town during the work week to save on costs.
4) Figure out a way to carpool. Perhaps this isn't easy in the country, but I've managed it in the past. 
5) Figure out an alternate way to make a living from home, or a way to do without money. (Good luck with that last one...)


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## Ryan NC (Jan 29, 2009)

Oldcountryboy said:


> Then take away about $12 - 14 dollars a day for insurance, car payment, parts repair, oil changes and tire replacement.
> 
> Not much money left to live on if you ask me!


Not trying to pick on ya countryboy but you just nailed the real problem right here... 

car payment = higher insurance + less money to cover other things like repairs and gas.

Figuring a LOW car payment of $200/month I get roughly an extra 700 miles a month (@ $7 gallon) just from the lack of a car payment by driving an older paid for S10 that gets about 25 miles to the gallon mostly due to driving it like a grandpa. If I need to haul stuff I hook up the 6x12 utility trailer (cost me $30 /yr in taxes & tags plus about $20 /yr for tires) and get about 14-16 MPG loaded but can haul everything I've needed to to date. 

Until folks start living with in their means they will remain slaves to their creditors and to the government as a whole.


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## machinist (Aug 3, 2010)

If/when transportation gets a lot more expensive (a matter of time, IMHO), a lot of things will change. Fossil energy is a finite resource and that is being used up. Eventually, the supply will get to be less, and the price will rise inexorably. 

In general, our standard of living will go down,, when it costs more to feed that oil-eating slave we call a vehicle. Adjust however it suits you, but adjustment will be necessary. 

It will no longer be practical to live a very long ways from where we work and play. Some areas will revert to their original land uses--farming, ranching, forestry--instead of rural retreat homes for city workers. Businesses will be located according to their sources of supply and their markets in many cases, where that will save them money. 

The size of our homes and our home energy consumption patterns will be reduced to what we can afford. Homes will get even more efficient in terms of energy usage, and occupancy numbers may well increase to save money. Unheated bedrooms may come back into fashion, and using vast quantities of hot water will stop. 

There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth about all this, but people will do it anyway because they will either live within their means, or go broke. The math is simple. Spending cannot exceed income forever. Our govt. will also learn this lesson in 3rd grade arithmetic.

The sooner the better, IMHO.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

Pouncer said:


> If diesel goes over $5 a gallon, we will be forced to find some other means for hot water, and buy a LOT more firewood. I use about 60 gallons every month for hot water (super crappy heating system) year round. We do have gas piped to the house, and I am going to talk to my hub about finding a gas hot water heater that we can still hook up to the (crappy) forced air heating system.
> 
> Honestly, I don't know why a person can't hook up a fast recovery hot water heater to those??


I recently shut my oil furnace off (which heated my water) and now use an electric hot water heater (40 gal.tank). The new electric units are very efficient and only average about $508/year for a 40 gal. unit. YMMV


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

We will adjust to inflation driven gas prices just as we did when it was 1 dollar,2,3 and 4 dollars a gallon

The world will not end because of inflation.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

I was taught that for every dollar's worth of gas you burn, you have a dollar's worth of expense. It's pretty much been true for the way I drive!


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## gwhilikerz (Aug 7, 2006)

mightybooboo said:


> We will adjust to inflation driven gas prices just as we did when it was 1 dollar,2,3 and 4 dollars a gallon
> 
> The world will not end because of inflation.


LOL, Don't worry, be happy. "Under my plan energy prices will necessarily skyrocket".


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## TooManyHobbies! (Mar 27, 2011)

never mind...


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

I drive 10's thousands of miles a year for work. It is what it is. I'll tell you how to get better milage.


Stay the heck out of cities. Slowing down in traffic then speeding up again then slow, then fast. This can waste a ton. go around it. even if it's "more" miles you will likely save gas and time.

Use a small car. A small beater can be had for less than a thousand. Anything less than 35MPG stinks.

Use cruise control if you can if it's flat. uphill, feather the pedal. you will slow a bit but save fuel.

Buy gas at the little mom and pops. The gas generally has less alcohol. Alcohol = less MPG. But look to be sure.

Over inflate your tires. 42 PSI is good when it says 35... Don't go to 50 tho.

Start slow and accelerate slow. This will make the biggest difference.

Leave early if possible. it's better to drive at 5 am than 6, 6 than 7 and so on.
Adjust your schedule if possible. Be the early guy. Leaving early in the afternoon helps as well.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

seedspreader said:


> That's true... I have always believed this in general, BUT I also didn't understand the soil much then.
> 
> Horses (and other livestock) are vital to fertile soil.


In absence of commercial fertilizer livestock would be vital I agree. I live in the middle of dairy country, you get fertilizer 365 days a year whether you want it or not. A team of horses on a 30 acre farm won't do that much to fertilize the soil, not to mention about half of that 30 acres will need to be fertilized and used just to feed the team. I've been around a lot of farms that use horse teams (picked up milk from 40 of them today), my own grandmother grew up on a farm that used horses, and my great aunt still has a couple of horses. Unless we have an event that makes all our technology go poof in an instant I just don't see a big push to go back to horse power. They are just too inefficient especially in a northern climate where one must have enough feed for the team all winter.

If fuel gets way high (like 7 bucks a gallon plus) I could see small farms making a comeback growing produce using small rotor tillers (gas or diesel powered) to work the land and composting to replenish the soil. Countries like Cuba did go back to animal power when they had a fuel shortage. However Cuba is a tropical country, grass grows all year round so the only thing the farmer has to concentrate his/her efforts on are plants and animals that make money. Not to mention in Cuba tractors are not as easily obtained as they are in the US. There is a huge surplus of unused machinery that is outdated for the modern farmer. A lot of parts can be mixed and matched if need be. 

I do think that the day of folks living in the country and commuting 30-40 miles to work will come to an end (sooner than later). Most people I know have an average commute of at least half an hour. Older folks have told me stories about how things used to be. People who lived in town worked in town. There was no such thing as a house on 5 acres and then commuting to work. If you lived out in the country you farmed. It was like this until the mid 70s and then things started to change with the advent of more durable cars and better road maintenance. 

I live in the country and I have absolutely no desire to live in a town no matter what the size. The trouble with moving close to a job in a rural area is that a lot of places keep shutting down and those that are left have a habit of continually firing people to keep pay raises to a minimum. That only leaves a couple of options, work out a few months of the year and live in a van/tent/car or farm.


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## Pouncer (Oct 28, 2006)

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/25/energy-america-oil-drilling-denial/


Don't know that I can add anything except the link, unless you live here, you can't understand what it means  High gas prices will end up being the least of our worries.


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## Sweetsong (Dec 4, 2010)

Haven't heard about the $7/gallon price, but if it goes to $5+ and stays there, I'll probably have to quit work, too. I currently drive 22 miles and make $9/hr, only two days a week. Not worth the trip. Will put a vehicle in storage for awhile. Car insurance in our state is HIGH.


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## julieq (Oct 12, 2008)

wishbone said:


> 5 dollars by summer, it'll probably be 5 dollars by the end of may, Americans should step right out and buy themselves another gas guzzeling,4X4, crew cab PU or another SUV to ride the rds alone in. Our greed has depleted the supplies and now we live with it. The only petro that will store long term today is kerocene


We have a 2001 Chevy Diesel dually, 4x4 with 150,000 miles on it and we get 19 mpg. So call us greedy for owning such a gas guzzler, but it's sort of tough to haul goats, hundreds of pounds of feed, or pull a horse trailer with a Honda Prius. Oh, and it does have a crew cab so I guess that's another strike against us...


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

PhilJohnson said:


> Unless we have an event that makes all our technology go poof in an instant I just don't see a big push to go back to horse power. They are just too inefficient especially in a northern climate where one must have enough feed for the team all winter.


I believe you grossly underestimate the use of the horse.

History is full of civilization advancements due to the horse. To keep the topic short I'll just stick to the most recent. Look into the history of the American Indian.

Distance traveled. While you seem to have the opinion horses are not good for considerable distance, your quite wrong. I had a friend that recently passed that just 30 years ago would ride her horse 70 miles one way just about anywhere she wanted to go. My current neibor used to ride into town daily untill he lost his horses. Just a few years ago.

Upkeep. Today, if your horse is not fat and happy with shelter and regular doctor(vet) visits most people feel sorry for it. Horses can live (and be healthier in some cases) with far less than most people give them nowadays. Wild horses still live through winter in northern regions. If they are being worked, they need more feed of course, but not nearly to what todays standards are. Horses were cared for and worked in many regions before motorized vehicles harvested their feed, and like us, can go back to that.

Laws. Some very large cities may have ordinances that may initially prevent the unobsructed use of horses, most do not. Locally, I can ride my horse through town, down the middle of the road, in a city of about 70k population. I can tie it and "park" in any public location. It's not uncommon for people to ride across the country for a 'cause'. There are many properties in most cities that have livestock on them within city limits. My cousin, living in a densly populated city/neiborhood in California, had horses on his rented property in the middle of apartment complexes. Yes, zoning had changed but as in most cities, livestock rights were grandfathered in to the original owner. If he sold, the new owner did not have the right. Irregardless, many of those ordinences would be changed, unenforced in difficult times. What are they gonna do, give me a horse pooping ticket? The highest number of horses, per capita, in the U.S. is in Orange County, California.

While it would take quite an extreme shift in our avalability of energy to return to that on a large scale, I'm inclined to beleive the shift will be much smaller than you anticipate.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Time, I'm well aware of the capabilities of a horse. I'm around them nearly every day. Don't get me wrong, they are quite capable animals but being capable and being practical are two different things. I am around people who use animal transport on a daily basis and use draft animals. I've ridden horses, rode in buggies behind horses, had my truck pulled out by horses. Riding a horse on the back country on mostly dirt trails is a lot different than having a horse pounding all day on pavement. I've seen plenty of worn out lame buggy horses at auction that are 8-9 years old. 

I had a Geo Metro that got 50 mpg hauling myself and two hefty friends. We split our gas on a random 180 mile round trip. Even at 7 dollars a gallon it would still only be $8.40 per person. For me that is about an hour's worth of work or about 94 pounds of low grade scrap steel depending on how you look at it. I can leave the Geo sit all week with out having to watch it or feed it. Heck I can leave it sit for a month. Can't do that with a horse. I have to put my time into a horse every single day. That is why for most folks a vehicle (car/moped/atv) is more practical.

Some folks are more comfortable with horses so I guess what ever flips their lid. I'm more comfortable with vehicles and so are most other people. It would have to be an all out TEOTWAWKI where no fuel was available for me to even consider using animal power. And if that happened I would seriously be trying to convert something to alcohol fuel or woodgas before giving up on the internal combustion engine.


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## TooManyHobbies! (Mar 27, 2011)

Plus if that happened (TEOTWAWKI type situation) you'd then have the added problem of protecting said animal power from others who would either 1) steal it to use for transportation or 2) steal it to eat it. 

Hope folks like having a horse live in the bunker with you...and I hope you have an ample hay supply stored in that bunker for said horse...


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

TooManyHobbies! said:


> Plus if that happened (TEOTWAWKI type situation) you'd then have the added problem of protecting said animal power from others who would either 1) steal it to use for transportation or 2) steal it to eat it.
> 
> Hope folks like having a horse live in the bunker with you...and I hope you have an ample hay supply stored in that bunker for said horse...


:smack I hadn't thought of that. Maybe I should get rid of chickens and the pig too. Dig up the garden. 

:lock1: I think I can protect the horses just as well as I can protect everything else. But thanks.

Phil,

While I concede many of your points are valid, horses are not easy, I highly disagree they are not viable.

I'm sorry, but get out of the U.S. and see the world. Animal power is alive and well throughout the world TODAY. Go to the third world countries. Or even watch some TV. Look at a magazine. Poor people have poor ways. Animal power is one of them. Maybe you should teach them the alternative fuel ways. Nobody has seemed to do that. Or is it more likely that animals are the cheaper, easier alternative?

I have horses and a bicycle. If I do not need to carry anything, I might take the bike but likely I'll take the horse any distance I might travel if I cannot afford fuel. If I have to carry anything substantial, I'll take the horse. Maybe two with a cart. With $7 a gallon fuel, this is a real possibility.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

time said:


> I'm sorry, but get out of the U.S. and see the world. Animal power is alive and well throughout the world TODAY. Go to the third world countries. Or even watch some TV. Look at a magazine. Poor people have poor ways. Animal power is one of them. Maybe you should teach them the alternative fuel ways. Nobody has seemed to do that. Or is it more likely that animals are the cheaper, easier alternative?


Most third world nations never modernized. They don't have the advantage of us here in the US having 50-60 years worth of mechanized farm equipment to choose from because 50-60 years ago those folks were doing things the exact same way they are now. 

Cars in the US are very cheap. I've gotten free cars that I've driven home. Now compare that to other countries like Venezuela where even a worn out clunker ready for the junk yard will go for 1200-2000 bucks. Third world countries never had much of a market for cars/tractors so there are very few used ones available. In that sort of environment I'd say animal power is more viable simply because of the scarcity of mechanized equipment. We in the US don't suffer from that because the US has always been a wealthy nation. Because we have access to cheap motorized transportation in the US it just doesn't make sense for most folks to go to animal power unless we are in the most dire of circumstances (ie no fuel).


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

I think we're moving toward that. I think Cash for Clunkers helped make it that way.

JUNK costs over 1K here.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

http://www.draftanimalpower.com/

I recomend you go with a mule.

You, me and a mule are equals when it comes to stubborness.ound:

Al the cars in the world don't matter if you can't put fuel in them. I have a free car sitting out doing nothing. It's not worth the cost to fix(it runs) to drive it.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

time said:


> http://www.draftanimalpower.com/
> 
> I recomend you go with a mule.
> 
> You, me and a mule are equals when it comes to stubborness.ound:


:hammer: You have me there. A mule would be my first choice for a draft animal.



time said:


> All the cars in the world don't matter if you can't put fuel in them. I have a free car sitting out doing nothing. It's not worth the cost to fix(it runs) to drive it.


I guess it all boils down to what you are comfortable with and what you can work with. I have a few clunkers laying around. Even if a car is blown up I still can use parts off it. Bolts, switches, wiring get used for other projects. I'll strip off all the brake lines off an old car and re-use the ends. Old tires get chopped up into bushings. Sometimes non-car parts can be re-used into cars. Galvanized pipe can be cut into piston rings. I have an old jumpstart device that was used for jump starting semi-trucks. The switches have been re-used in other cars and the heavy duty solenoids have found their way as replacements for the originals. My tractor's ignition switch used to be one of those inline lamp-shade switches. I imagine most of my vehicles I've sold have had more than one person scratching their head. 

Regarding fuel I think a closer comparison to what would happen here in the US one would have to look at post WWII Europe, Australia and New Zealand. There were a lot of small homebuilt micro-cars along with larger gasified powered vehicles. Diesels can be ran on any oily substance that burns. I've burned waste oil, transmission fluid, hydraulic oil, in my diesel truck. If fuel does become relatively unaffordable I would bet we would see people using a car/tractor only if absolutely necessary.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

PhilJohnson said:


> :hammer: You have me there. A mule would be my first choice for a draft animal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Phil, you figger out how to run a vehicle on drip gas, and I'll give you a lifetime supply. Course it'd help if you weren't a long days drive away!

John Wesley, Rawles supposedly is going to include drip gas 'technology' in his sequel to "Patriots". Waiting patiently....:yawn:

Akin to Mad Max, the Road Warrior, I have a well on the place that makes a fair of amount of natural gas (for a sixty year old well) and a couple barrels of 'drip' each day. I'd be setting pretty if I could get the "Samurai" to run off of it, post shtf.

there use to be a lot of vehicles that'd run off of drip, straight, without octane boosters... finding an old flat head six is hard...


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

Well this is a interesting subject if gas goe to $7 a gallon. I still haven't heard anything on the news about gas going that high. But on one of those news talk show yesterday morning they did mention $6 a gallon with everything that's going on in the world today. 

I guess what we've learned here is that if gas gets that high many of us will not be able to go to work unless we all drive a s10 pickup. Loading a five member family up to go to town, doctor, etc. will be out of the question. Unless the state troopers will forgive you for throwing the kids in the back of the pickup.(I doubt that) But if gas gets that high, insurance, price of food, and everything will go up even more and we will not be able to afford them as we are using half or more of our paycheck just driving to work. 

Yes, we will have to park the gas guzzler and learn to be self sufficient off of however much land we own. In my case.....2 acres! I know I can grow quite a bit of corn and taters on this peice of land, but the wild game is scarce. I'll have to crack some corn up and use it to attract songbirds for my meat. 

Well I guess I better go to bed, gotta get up early.


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## TooManyHobbies! (Mar 27, 2011)

Oldcountryboy said:


> I guess what we've learned here is that if gas gets that high many of us will not be able to go to work unless we all drive a s10 pickup. Loading a five member family up to go to town, doctor, etc. will be out of the question. Unless the state troopers will forgive you for throwing the kids in the back of the pickup.(I doubt that) But if gas gets that high, insurance, price of food, and everything will go up even more and we will not be able to afford them as we are using half or more of our paycheck just driving to work.



??? My subcompact car carries five people. It has seatbelts for five people. It's also fairly comfortable for five, especially if the person in the middle of the back isn't overly large (as in BIG). It gets 38 mpg if fully loaded near its 850 pound manufacturer specified weight limit. 

Edited to add:
I use this subcompact like a mini-pickup truck, too. I haul everything in it from lumber to 400+ pounds of feed at a time, bales of hay, and fencing. Obviously, some things won't fit. For example, I can't haul a full sheet of plywood. I can, however, haul partial sheets (and recently stopped after a 3x8 sheet that was along the road and managed to bring it home). I do need about 8 cubic yards of mulch brought in. I'm not attempting that in my car. I could do it, but it would take a lot of trips. I'll either rent a truck or pay to have that one delivered. It's cheaper than a higher payment and worse mpg. 

Heck, most any car has seatbelts for five people, unless you are talking about a sports car like my husband's Mustang. 

Why would you need an s10 pickup to go to work? I must be missing something here.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Darren said:


> The conversion kits are on eBay.


I don't doubt it... I know 35 years ago, our Ag shop instructor's truck had been converted to run off of propane. Sure there'd be kits to convert to ng.

What I need is a ng compressor station... getting the ng straight out of the ground, into a compressor, and then the compressed gas into the vehicle.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

texican said:


> Phil, you figger out how to run a vehicle on drip gas, and I'll give you a lifetime supply. Course it'd help if you weren't a long days drive away!


I have a feeling if I had a NG well on my place my cars would already be running the stuff  Too bad you're so far away, I'd love to experiment with the stuff. 



texican said:


> There use to be a lot of vehicles that'd run off of drip, straight, without octane boosters... finding an old flat head six is hard...


I'm surprised that down in Texas you don't have your pick of nice rust free old trucks/cars running flathead motors  I have two flathead powered cars at my place now (both run) plus a 40s era tractor and two early 50s low compression OHV powered vehicles. The last flathead powered car I picked up ran me 500 bucks. Ran and drove nice, wound up flipping it for a profit. Every old car I have now I picked up for less than 500 bucks.



TooManyHobbies! said:


> ??? My subcompact car carries five people. It has seatbelts for five people. It's also fairly comfortable for five, especially if the person in the middle of the back isn't overly large (as in BIG). It gets 38 mpg if fully loaded near its 850 pound manufacturer specified weight limit.
> 
> Edited to add:
> I use this subcompact like a mini-pickup truck, too. I haul everything in it from lumber to 400+ pounds of feed at a time, bales of hay, and fencing. Obviously, some things won't fit. For example, I can't haul a full sheet of plywood. I can, however, haul partial sheets (and recently stopped after a 3x8 sheet that was along the road and managed to bring it home). I do need about 8 cubic yards of mulch brought in. I'm not attempting that in my car. I could do it, but it would take a lot of trips. I'll either rent a truck or pay to have that one delivered. It's cheaper than a higher payment and worse mpg.
> ...


I take it you live in town. Trouble with small cars is that most of them make lousy back road cruisers. I live where there are a lot of gravel roads. I've seen people stuck in the middle of the road during spring thaw, heck I've almost have gotten stuck in the middle of the road. Huge potholes, washouts, deep snow in the winter, all of which will become more frequent as townships receive less and less money from the state to fix their roads. My neighbor's road is so bad that the mail man delivers mail half a mile away from her house instead of driving down her road. I've seen A-arms ripped clean off a car around here. During spring thaw I can go down back roads and find random car parts :hammer: If it wasn't for the rough roads most of my vehicles wouldn't have exhaust systems on them. I pick them up and re-use them. 

A typical small car has small low profile tires and is low to the ground. Low profile tires in snow stink not to mention you hit a wash out you're going to bend a rim and probably pop a tire (I know because it's happened to me). The best back road small car I had was Suzuki Swift (Geo Metro clone). The 95+ models had taller tires and a good bit of ground clearance. The skinny tall tires worked great in the snow and the light weight enabled me to go down sandy roads without worry. I wish car manufactures would build a small diesel car that was high off the ground and had tall skinny tires with plenty of sidewall and that was rear wheel drive (or 4x4). Since they don't the best I and others can do is drive small SUVs and trucks.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Come-on, now it's 7 dollars?? There was just a tread about $6 gas. 7 dollars seems too high for this year.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2011)

PhilJohnson said:


> Trouble with small cars is that most of them make lousy back road cruisers. I live where there are a lot of gravel roads. I've seen people stuck in the middle of the road during spring thaw, heck I've almost have gotten stuck in the middle of the road. Huge potholes, washouts, deep snow in the winter, all of which will become more frequent as townships receive less and less money from the state to fix their roads. My neighbor's road is so bad that the mail man delivers mail half a mile away from her house instead of driving down her road. I've seen A-arms ripped clean off a car around here. During spring thaw I can go down back roads and find random car parts :hammer: If it wasn't for the rough roads most of my vehicles wouldn't have exhaust systems on them. I pick them up and re-use them.


We get less snow than you, but it's much as you describe it here if you don't live in town. Small cars are useless off the highway. Even the mailman drives a SUV to deliver the mail, because a smaller vehicle is too prone to getting stuck on the back roads.


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## TooManyHobbies! (Mar 27, 2011)

PhilJohnson said:


> I take it you live in town. Trouble with small cars is that most of them make lousy back road cruisers. I live where there are a lot of gravel roads. I've seen people stuck in the middle of the road during spring thaw, heck I've almost have gotten stuck in the middle of the road. Huge potholes, washouts, deep snow in the winter, all of which will become more frequent as townships receive less and less money from the state to fix their roads. My neighbor's road is so bad that the mail man delivers mail half a mile away from her house instead of driving down her road. I've seen A-arms ripped clean off a car around here. During spring thaw I can go down back roads and find random car parts :hammer: If it wasn't for the rough roads most of my vehicles wouldn't have exhaust systems on them. I pick them up and re-use them.
> 
> A typical small car has small low profile tires and is low to the ground. Low profile tires in snow stink not to mention you hit a wash out you're going to bend a rim and probably pop a tire (I know because it's happened to me). The best back road small car I had was Suzuki Swift (Geo Metro clone). The 95+ models had taller tires and a good bit of ground clearance. The skinny tall tires worked great in the snow and the light weight enabled me to go down sandy roads without worry. I wish car manufactures would build a small diesel car that was high off the ground and had tall skinny tires with plenty of sidewall and that was rear wheel drive (or 4x4). Since they don't the best I and others can do is drive small SUVs and trucks.



You are correct. I do live in town -- NOW. I did, however, spend 35+ years living in rural areas, with about 17 years of that at a lengthy distance from any town. I lived on a gravel road for over 15 years, and have seen it flood and be washed out multiple times. Through all of that, I only had a pickup truck for a short period--maybe a couple of years. I've also driven my share of rural roads all over the continental 48. *Edited to add: Transportation issues are a MAJOR reason why I have chosen to live in a city at this time in my life. I can get to and from work for very little money. I also can get to and from work without a car, if the need arose. It wouldn't be fun or pleasant but it is doable. Transportation and economics overrode my preference/desire for a more rural home. It was a "choice" based on considerations such as $4.50 gasoline that we had when I moved into the city.*

I will clarify that I've driven this little car over some pretty bad roads, including having to get out of the car and hike ahead to scout out the road, then come back, drive a stretch, and repeat. However, it was NOT muddy or wintertime. I can understand that if you live in an area where roads are muddy or car sized potholes are a problem then you'd need something taller and heavier. Likewise, this particular car might not be preferable in an area with large amounts of winter snow. Others would do better in that, though. 

I have to think that for the vast majority of people, roads aren't too bad for the use of a car instead of a truck. I'll grant that for those who live in some isolated areas where roads are not paved or maintained a larger vehicle would be needed. Let's look at some possible options that might fit this type of situation:

1) Own two vehicles, and drive the bigger one during muddy or deep snow seasons. Some states do not require insurance to be carried on a "parked" vehicle, so long as it is paid off. The majority of households we are talking about probably own two vehicles anyway. It would make sense for one of these to be efficient.

2) Use two vehicles, or one efficient vehicle + a 4 wheeler or other alternative transportation, each for part of the drive. I doubt most people, even in rural areas, are driving lousy roads all the way to town/work. In most cases that I know, those lousy roads are just for the isolated portion of the drive, from the highway (or paved road) on to the home. That may be a mile or five miles, but there may well be 20 or 40 miles beyond that on better maintained roads. If this is the case, figure out a way to park the vehicle at or near the better maintained road. Work something out with a neighbor or with someone who lives in that area. Get creative. Drive the rough roads vehicle (or 4 wheeler) the first stretch then drive the car the rest of the way. Reverse upon return home. I've known folks who did this. They had about a mile trip off paved roads through what wasn't much more than a lane. They took everything in behind or on the 4 wheeler. Saved them cutting an awfully long driveway in and maintaining it. Plus, it gave more privacy. 


3) If the costs get too high to live in the isolated area, then it might be time to live elsewhere. Perhaps one family member will have to "move to town" to work, returning home only on weekends. 

3) Accept the fact that a trade off of living in an isolated area far from most other people is going to mean poor roads and high transportation costs, just as those of us who now live in cities accept that this brings other costs such as higher property taxes and higher car insurance. Recognize that the price of gas will continue to increase and we probably can't change it. Make changes to cope with this, even if you don't like the changes. 

4) Think outside the box, like I've said previously. That might mean putting a camper box on that pickup truck and not coming home every night. Or, it might mean any number of other things. Each person's situation is different so it's hard to say what it could stretch to include.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

TooManyHobbies, You did ask the question of why someone would need an S-10 to get to work. Sounds like you knew the answer to that question already. I don't disagree that people will need to change but that doesn't change that most small cars are lousy on back roads or regular roads if there is more than a couple of inches of snow on them. 

My out of the box idea: small diesel engine in an old rwd car with jacked up suspension and large tires. All my cars usually are jacked upped anyway with as large of tires as I can fit on them. Unfortunately my source for small diesel engines has dried up so it is on to plan B, wood gas.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

TooManyHobbies! said:


> You are correct. I do live in town -- NOW. I did, however, spend 35+ years living in rural areas, with about 17 years of that at a lengthy distance from any town. I lived on a gravel road for over 15 years, and have seen it flood and be washed out multiple times. Through all of that, I only had a pickup truck for a short period--maybe a couple of years. I've also driven my share of rural roads all over the continental 48. *Edited to add: Transportation issues are a MAJOR reason why I have chosen to live in a city at this time in my life. I can get to and from work for very little money. I also can get to and from work without a car, if the need arose. It wouldn't be fun or pleasant but it is doable. Transportation and economics overrode my preference/desire for a more rural home. It was a "choice" based on considerations such as $4.50 gasoline that we had when I moved into the city.*
> 
> I will clarify that I've driven this little car over some pretty bad roads, including having to get out of the car and hike ahead to scout out the road, then come back, drive a stretch, and repeat. However, it was NOT muddy or wintertime. I can understand that if you live in an area where roads are muddy or car sized potholes are a problem then you'd need something taller and heavier. Likewise, this particular car might not be preferable in an area with large amounts of winter snow. Others would do better in that, though.
> 
> ...


1&2 are not viable. If a person is having difficulting affording fuel, buying and maintaining another vehicle is definatly not the answer. The cost to do so will rarely save you money in fuel. The vehicle has to be registered every year, insured, maintained, you have to buy it, ect. Sitting vehicles need maintanance also. Tires and seals/gaskets rot. If you havn't noticed, the price of motor oil is going up a bunch. Part's are expensive. Batteries go south in a hurry in vehicles that don't get used much. The fuel sitting in the tank and fuel pump and carb or injection system varnishes/goes bad and evaporates/collects water.

If a person has a need for a large vehicle, it is more financially viable to own one and drive it. Most people on a budget do not own multiple vehicles for multiple purposes.

#3&4 is shortsighted. While living in the city if you work in the city is a sound practice, it doesn't work out well for multiple household workers. If the wife works in town and the price of gas gets too high for her to make money and commute, I'll not have a seperate place in town, nor will I have her living in the back of the truck during the week. Just ridiculous. We will simply lose the income. DUE TO HIGH GAS PRICES.

Your insistance that high fuel prices is not a major deal and some simple conservation techniques solves the problem is shortsighted. $7 fuel is lifechanging for many and I don't think you include the higher price of everthing such as food costs that is effected by higher fuel costs, wich is everything. When you have to spend more for everyday needs that $7 is much harder to come up with.

@ $7 it will cost $35 just to fill my motorcycle or a gas can.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Its easy to say...Live in Town

I think living in town is the LAST place i want to be living if things go sour.Seems a HORRIBLE choice IMO.

Little cars,get real,my little car cannot move,literally,in 2 inches of snow,the computer locks the brakes as soon as a wheel spins.So THATS useless if you have weather where you live.

The answer is what its always been,we have inflation and we have an eroding standard of living,both will continue and we will continue on.

Stop 'joy riding'? Sure,its 110 dollars to drive to work a week.I could move to town,cant sell my paid for house,pay 800-1000 month to live in a sewer....thats helpful. My joy driving,not 10 dollars a week,cut that out,makes no difference to my budget.

No thanks,I'll stay in the small town,in MY house,and bite the commute costs as a price of doing business.And have a heck of a lot better chance surviving the crime that a collapse brings here than in the city.

And no thank you,Im not living in my truck to save 20 bucks a day in gas costs and giving up my home.And animals,and wife,and security and privacy ad nauseum.

Park my 4x4 half way down the mtn and take other vehicle...yup,they would both be vandalized or stolen in the first 24 hours.No thanks again.


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

I'll inject some humor here - this thread reminded me of the old "5 minute abs" commercials; then somebody came out with "4 minute abs", then "3 minute abs". Too bad the trend here is going in the opposite direction: $5 gas, $6 gas, no, $7 gas ....


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

timfromohio said:


> I'll inject some humor here - this thread reminded me of the old "5 minute abs" commercials; then somebody came out with "4 minute abs", then "3 minute abs". Too bad the trend here is going in the opposite direction: $5 gas, $6 gas, no, $7 gas ....


I have 20 minute abs. Thats how long it takes to get way from the dinner table.


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## ldc (Oct 11, 2006)

TooManyHobbies, I've done the "no hot water" thing here in the states for 15 years, and heat the hot h2o I really need on the stove. My family (in rural NY State) has also done the 2 vehichle strategy in rough winters; take the tractor thru snow/gravel roads to the turn out on the county road. Park tractor, pick up road worthy car/truck, and go to work. Reverse for the way home. Parked vehichles/tractor were never vandalized. ldc


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## Ryan NC (Jan 29, 2009)

TooManyHobbies! said:


> Why would you need an s10 pickup to go to work? I must be missing something here.


This was a jab at me ;-) My choice of vehicle is simple, it's dual purpose and fits my lifestyle... I get relatively decent gas mileage for a truck without a car payment and yet have enough power (V6) to haul stuff when needed. 

I'll back up that anyone living a rural lifestyle needs a method to haul stuff from time to time, my disagreement with the haul stuff mentality is that you don't need or are entitled to a dully to drive full time. There are cases where it's the only type vehicle that makes sense BUT this is the exception not the rule IMHO.


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## TooManyHobbies! (Mar 27, 2011)

Time -- 
I wasn't suggesting that those options were useful for EVERYONE. However, I've known folks who use some of them, and I've used 3 of them myself. So, I know some of them work.

I know quite a few people who have what might appear to some people as unusual work arrangements. Several have two residences -- a low priced apartment in town and a farm or other place in the country. In most of these instances, one spouse stays at the country place full time and the other works "in the city" during the week and returns to the country place for the weekend. It may seem odd to some people, but I know it can work. In fact, we have something akin to this in our own household, though I don't care to delve into further details publicly. (It's not a marital separation or divorce issue, by any stretch of the imagination.)

I "know" that having two vehicles for different purposes can work. We've done it. We always had this when I was growing up, too. It was just part of operating a farm. Most people I know have two vehicles -- or even three. It isn't much of a stretch to have the two vehicles serve different purposes. 

I also KNOW that parking at the main road can work. We've done that, as well. Our lane was a half mile long and utterly impassable in the winter. This was in a cold winter climate where temps regularly stayed below zero for extended periods and snowfall was heavy. We parked at the road and walked in when snow was heavy or the lane could not be maintained. It was just how life was. Groceries were placed on a sled and the sled was pulled up the drive. Was it fun? No. Was it possible? Certainly. This type of arrangement could allow some people to bypass large gas bills by letting them drive more efficient vehicles.

Typically I speak from experience or personal knowledge on a topic. If I'm speculating, I'll say so. I'm not some young whippersnapper at his first rodeo. I offered suggestions or possible options, and did not suggest that these ideas would work for everyone.


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## TooManyHobbies! (Mar 27, 2011)

mightybooboo said:


> Its easy to say...Live in Town
> 
> I think living in town is the LAST place i want to be living if things go sour.Seems a HORRIBLE choice IMO.
> 
> ...


If your car would be vandalized or stolen in the first 24 hours, it sounds like you might be living in an area far more dangerous that most of the major metro where I live. By the way, that $800-900 will buy or rent you an awfully nice place with a 2-3 acre lot in some major cities. I recognize this isn't the case in all cities. 

I swore for most of my life that I'd never live in a big city. Various factors caused this to change about 3 years ago. I absolutely love it now. To each his/her own.

Looks like our prep attitudes are probably a bit different. That's okay, though. Diversity is a good thing. I prep first for economic hard times, weather related problems, supply problems, job loss or income disruptions, etc. Others choose to focus heavily on TEOTWAWKI. Both are valid for preppers.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

ok I raised this question before but what about the oil? 

you know lubrication ???

no on has of yet provided a good source and a reliable one as of yet.

I'm more then aware of fuel alternatives but even then I would conserve.

my suggestion of animal power was not the only option but more a alternative, the original solar vehicle.
you could still use a ICE for transport but more as a luxury.

really if your in town a bike or your feet should suffice, where I'm at screw that!

I'll take a horse. good luck on a reasonable one should you wait till they are semi practical.

but even in a city I'm sure (not new york city) there's plenty of lawn to graze a horse.
I'm sure neighbors could agree to a share schedule on the beast. at least in dire situation.


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## TooManyHobbies! (Mar 27, 2011)

Quote: really if your in town a bike or your feet should suffice, where I'm at screw that!

Depends on your physical status and also on what you need to haul.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

I don't know if $7.00 is out of the question. Some places in Indy today were $4.17 already.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

My "truck". :hysterical: Well, not really this one pictured, mine is lime green and it has a big Canada sticker on it - 1986, 8 cyl. Buick, runs great, gets 23 mpg, and cruises on the highway like floating on a cloud. Just got rid of the old 2 seater '89 Nissan 4 cyl. pu. that got 18 mpg and that I drove for 15 years. Living in the city now but still working in the country 35 miles away doing landscaping, the SW carries about the same load and equipment as the pickup did, and I can put extra stuff on the roof-rack plus it has seating and seatbelts for the driver and 5 passengers. With the back seats down it holds 10 bales of hay.

This is my vision of what America will be going back to if gas prices keep on going up. The multi-purpose city/country ***** family station wagon "beater". :hysterical:

Works for me. :thumb:


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

||Downhome|| said:


> ok I raised this question before but what about the oil?
> 
> you know lubrication ???
> 
> no on has of yet provided a good source and a reliable one as of yet.


Waste oil can be filtered, letting it sit for a long period of time will knock out impurities as well. Centrifuge is another option. Places in the 50s and early 60s used to sell reclaimed motor oil. Also as long as fuel is still available motor oil will be too. The higher the price of fuel goes up the less I'll be driving anyway so the less I'll have to change oil. If I can't get motor oil changing oil in my car will be the least of my problems.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Oldcountryboy said:


> ....If this is true there will be many people that just simply will not be able to drive to work anymore.....


My wife and I car pool to work everyday. The round trip drive is 70 miles. We use 4 gallons of gasoline to drive this round-trip distance. Consequently, if gasoline was $7/gal, our daily gasoline expenditure would be $28. 

Gasoline would have to be over $25/gallon before we'd consider quitting our jobs. On the other hand, we could purchase a more fuel efficient vehicle and probably hold out to $50/gallon gasoline.

Our annual trips to Texas would be out of the question!


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

So you can't drive a small car in the snow.... I drive thousands of miles every winter in heavy snow. I drive a little car. It goes great in 8" of powder. I will say I lose about 10% fuel economy to my studded snows. But 35 MPG still beats the heck out of My f150 and 20 MPG.


IMHO the little car drives better in the snow than any truck. Trucks are too light on the back end. No way around that unless you add weight. Adding weight makes it take longer to stop. Ask your self this question. Is it better to slide threw the intersection sideways without weight. Or strait ahead with it.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

My Dodge 4X4 doesnt 'slip in the snow' its the most capable foul weather vehicle Ive EVER owned,hands down.I can drive up an ice chute without chains that chained up little cars slide on.

That small car isnt going through 2 feet of snow thats pouring down,my truck and Cummins just rumbles right on thru.Very handy for KEEPING my job as they sorta EXPECT me to show up.

Seen King of the Hill? That was my driveway on Easter,LOL. Guys were commenting on how much they liked my old jeep,also commenting about when the snow gets thick leave the Jeep in the driveway and take the truck.

Small cars,total joke for here.Though that Subaru sure is capable,until it high centers.

Older small cars? That works great to snow 4 inches deep with chains,if you are a mechanic,which MOST folks arent,they NEED newer cars that run,and the newer small cars,with electronics,dont run in snow.I live it,I know.Our roads are constantly blocked every snowfall with flatlanders who watch too many stupid commercials who think their small cars handle winter conditions,they dont.

As for leaving car parked on road? Watch Bait car for a reality check.World is filled with scuzbags and PillBillies just waiting for the chance to snag your vehicle.Unattended.Ask the man who has had 2 vehicles stolen,one at work,one right in front of the house,in a ONE WEEK period,hows that for fun?.Guess who takes vehicle security far more seriously now than in the past

Move out of state to where? Give up my high paying job thats ONLY valid in Ca,no thanks.

I see some rather simplistic answers that are hardly usable depending on your circumstances.

My answer,get an education,and get a career that pays more than minimum wage and you CAN afford to buy gas,and a house,and all that goes with it.

The answer here seems 7 buck/hr is a given,it isnt,get paid a decent wage with a career,not minimum wage seems like a far better answer to me.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

stanb999 said:


> So you can't drive a small car in the snow.... I drive thousands of miles every winter in heavy snow. I drive a little car. It goes great in 8" of powder. I will say I lose about 10% fuel economy to my studded snows. But 35 MPG still beats the heck out of My f150 and 20 MPG.
> 
> 
> IMHO the little car drives better in the snow than any truck. Trucks are too light on the back end. No way around that unless you add weight. Adding weight makes it take longer to stop. Ask your self this question. Is it better to slide threw the intersection sideways without weight. Or strait ahead with it.


Since I plow our 800 ft driveway, and the county&State are pretty good at keeping our roads clear, we could get by with a 2WD vehicle for most of the winter.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

machinist said:


> If/when transportation gets a lot more expensive (a matter of time, IMHO), a lot of things will change. Fossil energy is a finite resource and that is being used up. Eventually, the supply will get to be less, and the price will rise inexorably.
> 
> In general, our standard of living will go down,, when it costs more to feed that oil-eating slave we call a vehicle. Adjust however it suits you, but adjustment will be necessary.
> 
> ...


Yup. we'll adapt and simply start living the way most of the rest of the world does...


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Paumon said:


> My "truck". :hysterical: Well, not really this one pictured, mine is lime green and it has a big Canada sticker on it - 1986, 8 cyl. Buick, runs great, gets 23 mpg, and cruises on the highway like floating on a cloud. Just got rid of the old 2 seater '89 Nissan 4 cyl. pu. that got 18 mpg and that I drove for 15 years. Living in the city now but still working in the country 35 miles away doing landscaping, the SW carries about the same load and equipment as the pickup did, and I can put extra stuff on the roof-rack plus it has seating and seatbelts for the driver and 5 passengers. With the back seats down it holds 10 bales of hay.
> 
> This is my vision of what America will be going back to if gas prices keep on going up. The multi-purpose city/country ***** family station wagon "beater". :hysterical:
> 
> Works for me. :thumb:


We already have sortof... All SUV's and minivans are is the modern version of a station wagon really.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

mightybooboo said:


> My Dodge 4X4 doesnt 'slip in the snow' its the most capable foul weather vehicle Ive EVER owned,hands down.I can drive up an ice chute without chains that chained up little cars slide on.
> 
> That small car isnt going through 2 feet of snow thats pouring down,my truck and Cummins just rumbles right on thru.Very handy for KEEPING my job as they sorta EXPECT me to show up.
> 
> ...


Your average commute is going thru 2 feet of powder? really. 2 feet.
Not too likely. on average getting thru 6 -10 is the most any of us have to deal with. If it's the case that even once a week you have 2 feet of snow to deal with than I agree a truck would be a necessity. Here we get snow darn near every day all winter this winter in particular was bad. I had several inches 5 being average on unplowed roads 3 to 4 times a week every week for months. My car is a 2007. So I don't know what you mean by newer cars...

P.S. I agree with you about getting a better job. I get to expense most of my miles. So even if it was 15 a gallon... Well it would matter because auto fuel price is the least of the issue. Shipping is gonna really hurt.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Cabin Fever said:


> Since I plow our 800 ft driveway, and the county&State are pretty good at keeping our roads clear, we could get by with a 2WD vehicle for most of the winter.


Before about mid december the state always did a banner job at clearing the roads. After that this year they stopped it seamed. Really crappy. They would plow once and that was it. Even relatively large highways were left go. For instance the one morning I was on rt. 81 (A major highway) They didn't plow and just lowered the speed limit to 45. :bash: There was 6" of powder on it going thru Scranton. It's not like this is a remote area. I was really suprised. Seems they limited the OT for the plow drivers. Hope they do better next year.


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## TooManyHobbies! (Mar 27, 2011)

mightybooboo said:


> *I see some rather simplistic answers that are hardly usable depending on your circumstances.*
> 
> My answer,get an education,and get a career that pays more than minimum wage and you CAN afford to buy gas,and a house,and all that goes with it.
> 
> The answer here seems 7 buck/hr is a given,it isnt,get paid a decent wage with a career,not minimum wage seems like a far better answer to me.



I don't think anyone has said that there is a single answer for everyone. I know that in my case, I gave several possibilities and CLEARLY stated that they wouldn't work for everyone. It seemed to be that others were doing so, as well.

You might also wish to avoid making assumptions about what education people have. There are many here who probably don't have a college education. There are others among us with multiple graduate degrees. It's easy to tell people to "get an education." In real life, though, a person who must work and care for children faces many challenges in doing so. It is possible for many people, but not for everyone.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

stanb999 said:


> Your average commute is going thru 2 feet of powder? really. 2 feet.
> Not too likely.


It is for a week at a time,several times a season,and packed ice after.For several MILES getting off the STEEP hill roads.

Ive posted pics here before.

Really.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

TooManyHobbies! said:


> You might also wish to avoid making assumptions about what education people have. There are many here who probably don't have a college education. There are others among us with multiple graduate degrees. It's easy to tell people to "get an education." In real life, though, a person who must work and care for children faces many challenges in doing so. It is possible for many people, but not for everyone.


Im saying if you are content to live on 7 bucks an hour,and there ARE choices beyond that,then you will have trouble making ends meet.

Or you can do better than that,you do have choices.

High paid unskilled jobs are GONE,time now more than ever to adapt to the changing job market or dont drive?

I go with increase your income,not fade away into the poorhouse.And yes,I did the starving student mode for years before I had a family,so I COULD support one later,good advice for the younger crowd now more than ever.

Agreed not easy for some for sure,but the starving single Mom? So many educational options for them to go to school on govs dime its ridiculous.

And WHO said getting ahead is easy???? It isnt.

Currently we pay over 110/week to drive work,its a drop in the bucket vrs our income,so yup,I see solutions beside laying down and getting clobbered.Expecting the World owes you something or woe is me.Step up,or get stepped on,too many in that boat,bad answer IMO.

BTW,those who got a career degree in our family are doing fine,those that didnt have found life far more challenging.I know which route I think is better for survival.And it isnt taking the easy way out.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

mightybooboo said:


> It is for a week at a time,several times a season,and packed ice after.For several MILES getting off the STEEP hill roads.
> 
> Really.


How is it better or less crappy for me to have to drive 90 miles one way in the powder. Then back. Going 65 MPH the whole way. Hills, yeah, we got them. Our mountains aren't as high but they are still steep. Glaciers... they flattened them a bit.

Just "Several" miles that would be a blessing. :bouncy:
You could almost push the car that little bit. :grin:


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

mightybooboo said:


> Im saying if you are content to live on 7 bucks an hour,and there ARE choices beyond that,then you will have trouble making ends meet.
> 
> Or you can do better than that,you do have choices.
> 
> ...


That's not true. I have one... Just ask my clients. ound:


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Small cars are great in the snow until they get hung up. Low-pro rims are lousy on ice. Every small car I've driven that was good in the snow had two things going for them, tall narrow tires with lots of sidewall and generous ground clearance. Unfortunately there hasn't been a small car built like that since the Metro/Swift ceased being sold in this country ten years ago. My old two wheel drive pickup with a bunch of weight in the back will blow through more snow than a VW Jetta. 

Touching on the education issue, some places just don't have very many professional level jobs (like where I live). I realized a while ago if I wanted to live rural a college education wouldn't do much for me. I've worked with plenty of people that have a college degree that are doing the same 9-10 dollar an hour job I'm doing. It boils down to three things where I'm at, get lucky and find a professional level job, move, or accept the way things are and realize that most likely I'll never make much money. Every single person that I graduated with that went off to college either moved near or in a major metro area with the exception of one. I dropped out of a local community college myself and those I went to college with (no one I went to high school with) I see working at fast food joints, grocery stores, and gas stations. 

I'll adapt, I've lived a bit rougher than most folks on this forum on much less money than even someone working a full time minimum wage job would earn. Money has never meant that much to me because in my opinion it won't matter much. This country as deep financial problems that are much larger issues than 7 dollar a gallon gas. Enjoy your good paying jobs while you can and use the money to prep with. But don't be fooled into thinking that money will mean much once our currency goes bust and a functioning government is nothing more than a warm fuzzy memory.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

stanb999 said:


> How is it better or less crappy for me to have to drive 90 miles one way in the powder. Then back. Going 65 MPH the whole way. Hills, yeah, we got them. Our mountains aren't as high but they are still steep. Glaciers... they flattened them a bit.
> 
> Just "Several" miles that would be a blessing. :bouncy:
> You could almost push the car that little bit. :grin:


Lets see you go through more than 6 inches or so,then get back to me that it will do a foot or two,aint happening.And its not even moving on our steep ice,thats a fact,since nobody else can move one in it.

BTW,up here driving 25 mph in our weather and roads,we call those folks 'Organ Donors' :yawn:


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

mightybooboo said:


> Lets see you go through more than 6 inches or so,then get back to me that it will do a foot or two,aint happening.And its not even moving on our steep ice,thats a fact,since nobody else can move one in it.
> 
> BTW,up here driving 25 mph in our weather and roads,we call those folks 'Organ Donors' :yawn:


I think your snow is pretty wet and heavy if it is anything like the snow I've been around in other western states. It isn't quite like blowing through soft powdery snow that I can sweep up with a broom. Nasty stuff, not something one will be driving though with a Toyota Camry. A few nasty conditions I've dealt with in the last year:










Had to walk home about a mile and get the dump truck out to unstuck me. Hit a few drifts that were over the bumper, about 8-10 inches worth of snow on average. 










Wash out last fall.










Another flooded road. You should have seen how bad it was this spring. It is still nearly impassible. I used to have to take this road to get to work last fall. When it flooded over and washed out I had to go 15 miles out of my way to the next bridge over the river. 

I wish I would have taken a bunch of pictures of my parents road a couple of weeks ago. There were ruts a foot deep on the road with water bubbling out of them. It was still passable with a small car provided you didn't either high center it or get into the ruts. There is a paved road I take to a larger town that is also quite rough. While it doesn't get washed out there are a lot of pot holes and the road has been patched 50 kazillion times. When I worked down there people where always complaining about how fast their suspensions were wearing out.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

mightybooboo said:


> Lets see you go through more than 6 inches or so,then get back to me that it will do a foot or two,aint happening.And its not even moving on our steep ice,thats a fact,since nobody else can move one in it.
> 
> BTW,up here driving 25 mph in our weather and roads,we call those folks 'Organ Donors' :yawn:


Yeah, I guess. You need to loose your job when the big O rations gas. 

All I know is a 4x4 or a car on ice makes little difference. Carbide studs do. With much more than a foot. You aren't going up hill. car or not.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

I have to chuckle on how a "price of gas" thread got turned into a "who has the baddest snow" thread!

BTW, it's snowing here today - on 4/27!


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

stanb999 said:


> Yeah, I guess. You need to loose your job when the big O rations gas.
> 
> All I know is a 4x4 or a car on ice makes little difference. Carbide studs do. With much more than a foot. You aren't going up hill. car or not.


Studs and chains are not an option in Wisconsin since they are illegal to use. Traction on ice depends on the temperature. Once there is a little water over the ice I agree nothing can get traction on that. Once you start getting below 20 degrees the traction isn't too bad. At twenty below the traction on ice is really decent.

Gas rationing is not going to happen. There is no shortage of fuel.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

PhilJohnson said:


> .


Yeah, thats how the roads were all winter. Only the sky is gray with light snow. Also instead of it being strait and flat. It's on steep grades with blind curves every 1000 ft. 


I too wish I had gotten a few photos. I even though of making a youtube video over the winter. It was really much worse than regular.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Cabin Fever said:


> I have to chuckle on how a "price of gas" thread got turned into a "who has the baddest snow" thread!
> 
> BTW, it's snowing here today - on 4/27!


:frypan: LOL

I'm glad the snow is likely over for us. Last was probably Saturday night.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

This was a medium storm. The day I took this picture it took me 3 hour to get to my Dad's house, 2 miles away. I did not get stuck. It took that long to pull all the cars out of the drifts so those of us in trucks could get by. Had to put one car bumper in the back of my truck to get it out of the middle of the road. No exageration.

My driveway drifts less than the roads. That's a full size Cadillac.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

mightybooboo said:


> The answer here seems 7 buck/hr is a given,it isnt,get paid a decent wage with a career,not minimum wage seems like a far better answer to me.


Its the old Indian Chief conundrum. Not everybody can be an Indian Chief, most live their life as mere braves, so only a few can get the top dollar jobs and live the life of Riley. (Well until the Employer finds a supply of foreigners with same education but who work cheaper.) But most have to figure how to get by on average Joe salary. There are lot very well educated people driving taxis and flipping burgers and washing dishes. So a good education doesnt guarantee anything. But not having the sheepskin will guarantee you dont get hired into a top dollar job if thats your lifes goal.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

time said:


> My driveway drifts less than the roads. That's a full size Cadillac.


Nice little snow. 

Here is one from my photo gallery. What's nice is we have a big spruce that hangs over the driveway. You can almost tell the back of the car has less than the top. So it's never an issue even with the snow measured in feet. One curious thing is years ago they built the house right on the road almost. Today even I would want the house back a few hundred yards. Course I don't know if the house or the road came first. The earliest county map shows both. :shrug: 

Hosted on Fotki


P.S. this is the little car that doesn't go in the snow.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Paumon said:


> My "truck". :hysterical: Well, not really this one pictured, mine is lime green and it has a big Canada sticker on it - 1986, *8 cyl*. Buick, runs great, gets 23 mpg, .......... This is my vision of what America will be going back to if gas prices keep on going up. The multi-purpose city/country ***** family station wagon "beater". :hysterical:


Correction, yours isn't an 8 cyl., it's a 6.



Txrider said:


> We already have sortof... All SUV's and minivans are is the modern version of a station wagon really.


I think the modern versions tend to break down more easily and are more expensive to fix. That's just been my own experience compared with the older station wagons though - I've had trucks, vans, newer SUV's, sedans, etc. and in my opinion the older style SW's are more versatile and more comfortable than all other vehicles and they're cheaper to keep running. Maybe no good for hauling horses but still reliable as a run-of-the-mill farm and family vehicle. YMMV.

.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Well all I can say is you have a lot to learn about tires and which move on ice and which dont,there is a difference,and yes I can drive up an ice chute in 4x4 with BFG AT's that a car chained,cant.Or surprisingly what gives my neighbor in his FORD 4x4 trouble with chains on front.So lets hear it for HEAVY 6000 lb truck with posi rear and 4x4 and aggressive tires,getting 16 mpg going a mile high ride each work day.When the SHTF weather-wise here,Im moving,very little else is.

BIG difference going up STEEP twisting hills in ice and 2 foot powders while snow pours down..... and running flat powders.

So whatever.

I'll pay the price until TEOTWAWKI.Then I'll stay home.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

mightybooboo - when it snows up here, the very steep 10 mph curves on the county road - stops all vehicles but those huge fuel guzzling 4X4s with tire chains..

I call it a snow day/ week and stay home, if we get more than a couple of inches of snow. The road here is steep twisting, and dodges around redwood trees. So many folks wait until it melts off in a few days, since the county snow plows seldom ever come up this way.

Plus if gas gets to $7.00 per gallon - I am not giving up my 1/2 ton pickup trucks, 1 ton camper van, or my 4X4 SUV. It's kind of hard to haul much firewood, in one of those small economy cars.

Nor will I move off of the hill to live in town. Maybe that really expensive gas will keep the city riff-raff down in town!!!


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

I hear ya all the way fellow Mtn dweller Radiofish,flatlanders dont know what we face at times.I dont need the big truck all the time,but when you do.....

HJ,as for jobs I agree,we all cant be chiefs.But for example we CAN be...Cops,Nurses,Teachers,Electrical Engineers,Environmental Engineers (Electricity and water treatment are booming fields and always growing,they are modern essentials),IT specialists,Dental Hygienists,Computer guy at Nuke plant (6 figures).....just to name a few offhand in my family.

All of them are doing just fine through this depression. The non degree folks are store managers,construction,truckers and mechanics and yes,even the diesel mechanic has seen his hours cut drastically as truckers have had to pull in their spending (after losing his VERY good job at Caterpillar).They have struggled in the downturn.

No Chiefs in the crew,those with an education are doing much better.

So yup,get a career degree and its a good answer. For us older folks,a little late for it to matter much at this point to make new training pay off before retirement age.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

naturelover said:


> Correction, yours isn't an 8 cyl., it's a 6.
> 
> 
> I think the modern versions tend to break down more easily and are more expensive to fix. That's just been my own experience compared with the older station wagons though - I've had trucks, vans, newer SUV's, sedans, etc. and in my opinion the older style SW's are more versatile and more comfortable than all other vehicles and they're cheaper to keep running. Maybe no good for hauling horses but still reliable as a run-of-the-mill farm and family vehicle. YMMV.
> ...


For the non mechanic a modern vehicle will give a good 100K before they get pretty bad on repairs for the most part,so these folks are kind of stuck when they need reliable transportation. New cars dont need tuneups,carb adjusts,start in really bad weather without question,etc,old cars dont.Points get damp,carbs leak,drum brakes always needing adjusting and dont stop wet,etc.

Im down to a 1997 truck and a 1967 Jeep,both I can work on (truck not as much but hugely reliable with that diesel Cummins),simple machines.But older machines.... they are not as reliable as new cars and expensive to repair at a shop if you cant maintain them yourself,like any other vehicle.IMO FWIW,I understand why folks buy new vehicles.....Constantly unfortunately.Me myself doesnt like supporting cars.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

mightybooboo said:


> HJ,as for jobs I agree,we all cant be chiefs.But for example we CAN be...Cops,Nurses,Teachers,Electrical Engineers,Environmental Engineers (Electricity and water treatment are booming fields and always growing,they are modern essentials),IT specialists,Dental Hygienists,Computer guy at Nuke plant (6 figures).....just to name a few offhand in my family.


Police jobs don't pay well around here (a Deputy starts at 10/hr). With all the budget issues a lot of teachers been getting lay-offs. Not everyone can go to school, some folks aren't school people and barely made it through high school. Others just aren't smart enough. I think it is unrealistic to think that all we need is everyone to get an education and somehow our problems would be solved. What we have are dysfunctional immigration and trade policies and that is the real problem. With the cuts to educational grants and the shrinking availability of credit higher education is becoming a luxury that working class folks just can't afford.


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

Hermit John and Mightybooboo speak with wise wisdom! That's why I said many people may have to quit there jobs is cause they lack education or the right education, or are too old (there is still today age discrimination) that they can't find a good high paying job and only work for minumum wage. Which is $7.25 per hour here in Oklahoma. 

Cabin Fever wrote: My wife and I wouldn't quit our jobs for spending $28. per day on gas. But what CF didn't mention was how much he makes, how much she makes, which wouldn't surprize me if either of their pay rate wasn't double the minumum wage law. So if 2 people are sharing a ride and both get a good paycheck, then they would be foolish to quit their jobs cause of a mere $28 daily fuel consumption. 

When I was the "Environmental Services Director" at a local hospital, most of my Housekeepers and Laundry personel only got paid minimum wage or a dime above and some of them drove as far as 30 miles away just to have that job. Now if gas got too expensive, I wouldn't doubt some of those personels would probably quit thier jobs and live on welfare. When fuel goes up, so does groceries, clothing, insurance, and everything else. Plus you pay more taxes on anything you purchase. Once you pay your fuel bill your lucky to have enough left over to pay for much anything else.


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## Ryan NC (Jan 29, 2009)

Oldcountryboy said:


> Now if gas got too expensive, I wouldn't doubt some of those personels would probably quit thier jobs and live on welfare.


And that Sir is exactly a big part of our problem today... You are 100% correct and i think it will be the down fall of the country as a whole. 

Now I present you with the scenario of a collapse of the dollar where welfare no longer exist, what then?


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2011)

Ryan NC said:


> Now I present you with the scenario of a collapse of the dollar where welfare no longer exist, what then?


That's what I fear: that the collapse of the dollar will eliminate welfare. And then we will have riots like this country has never seen riots.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

ladycat said:


> That's what I fear: that the collapse of the dollar will eliminate welfare. And then we will have riots like this country has never seen riots.


No problem, that is why Homeland Security recently bought 200 million rounds of ammo. http://www.gunreports.com/news/ammo/Winchester-ICE-Homeland-Security-ICE_1460-1.html


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Well, since this is a "whose is deeper" thread now... I'll throw in our first snow storm of the year (not first 12 inch snow, first 36+ inch snowstorm of the year) the first week of December.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Big Gas Guzzling 4x4 necessary here...


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

Seedspreader, that's what our last snow storm looked like. Area's around here got anywhere from 24 to 30 inches of snow on top of 12 inches that was still on the ground from the storm before. 

I think ladycat has it right, there will be riots and luding going on everywhere. Store owners are gonna have to stay up all night guarding there business with shotguns and handgrenads.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

seedspreader said:


> Well, since this is a "whose is deeper" thread now... I'll throw in our first snow storm of the year (not first 12 inch snow, first 36+ inch snowstorm of the year) the first week of December.





Yeah, but you live in snow hell.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

stanb999 said:


> Yeah, but you live in snow hell.


That ought to at least entitle me to some cheap gas. Even if the people in the south have to subsidize it for me. Otherwise I might have to move down there...


They can think of it as an ANTI-YANKEE tax.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Seedspreader, I do believe you have me beat. We got a few nasty 20 inch snow falls but that pales in comparison to your 36 inches.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Seedspeader, what you are a couple of snow machines. I have a Polaris and and an Arctic Cat sled for sale.


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