# If the grid fails, will you die?



## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

An interesting article. Some things to think about.

_It seems too many people are flippant or dismissive of the potential hardships. &#8220;An electromagnetic pulse is a joke and would be minor at best,&#8221; notes one person. &#8220;I say that because most people know how to survive without all the modern conveniences.&#8221;
Or, &#8220;We&#8217;d go back to the 1800s. Big deal. People lived just fine in the 1800s.&#8221;
I&#8217;m not here to argue about the odds of an EMP taking out the grid. I&#8217;m not going to discuss the technicalities of Faraday cages or the hardening of electronics. I&#8217;m here to state that if you think life in America without electricity will merely revert us to pioneer days, you are dead wrong (no pun intended, I hope). We wouldn&#8217;t regress to the 1800s; we would regress to the 1100s or earlier. Life would become a bitter, brutal struggle for survival._

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2014/05/if-the-grid-fails-will-you-die/#XHT66lTHzwrh3uTQ.99​http://www.wnd.com/2014/05/if-the-grid-fails-will-you-die/


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

put this chart in reverse order is my opinion...its going to be ugly IMHO.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

tom ...just adding in this chart for us to muse over in our minds.


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## hurryiml8 (Apr 15, 2009)

elkhound said:


> tom ...just adding in this chart for us to muse over in our minds.


In many of those areas there wouldn't be as great an impact as here.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

Just talking our family, we'd probably do ok. We live fairly primitive anyway. In the context of our family survival when you add in society, that's a toss up. We have quite a few skills, but are not _completely_ independent and we are not in a defensible situation. Our personal skills alone will not be even close enough to assure our survival when you throw in all the variables that come with other people.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

And what are our tax dollars doing to ensure the grid is hardened? Hearings.


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

Tom, I'm one of the ones who's staking my hopes on being able to rebuild. Maybe it's naive - but what else is there to do?

SO: I think a lot about the technology of the 1800s and how the "industrial revolution" was made possible by certain technologies that came out of the middle ages. The key, I believe, was being able to increase the production of one person, by an exponential number, using basic machinery and simple technology. 

Water powered mills; animal powered too
Looms/spinning technology
Evolution of metal working from a single hammer/anvil/blacksmith to ??
Steam power and it's applications in transportation: boats, trains & cars... rudimentary machinery, for instance sawmills, etc

Think about this: the great cathedrals of Europe were engineered and built in an age before slide rules -- much less calculators. Since that time, some information has been lost - but much remains and has been pieced together again. Do we know what made this achievement possible? Some historians think they had access to Roman & Greek texts that detailed their building techniques.

The one boon of modern information technology is being able to collect an Alexandria Library's worth of knowledge in a private collection. And an important part of my collection is the how-to history of how the things we currently rely on, came to be. 

In the future, it's not so much that we will want to completely recreate the mess we have now (and because of resource issues that may not be possible anyway). But we could use the same the knowledge to build something ELSE that serves the same purposes. Think in terms of another Renaissance - with the scientific advances, the technological ones that were the application of those previous advances... and where we might have gone wrong in the "industrial age".

To me, the possibilities that future generations will flourish again - after a time reminscent of a "dark ages" - are really quite good. But preservation of knowledge and skills and knowledge transfer to succeeding generations is absolutely essential.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

Would we die in the sense of lack of food or water or shelter....no. But since their is only one true sense of death, it is a toss up.

I like to think that I have hardened up my area enough to survive my toughest threat... other people.

We have a good source of water and a good source of food. Plenty of hand tools to take the place of others (i.e. chainsaw, pumps, etc). Some fuel stored up for specific issues.

And I have enough personal protection items and supplies to last a while (at least my personal thoughts) but trying to hold an area with limitied personnel against a larger group is almost impossible in long term situations.

My primary goal is to appear as hard off and out of luck as the people around. Forest gardens and hidden items help that.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Without my meds, probably.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Well... on the bright side, at least the NSA wouldn't be able to spy on us any more...


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Interesting thoughts so far. We're a mix of joseph, thermpkt and sand flea. It would be an adjustment, but not anything insurmountable. Biggest problem/threat are the folks that are extremely dependent on such things.
Yeah, driving would be out, but no big deal. Cable gone (haven't had for about 10 years), freezers would hold out long enough to can contents with the genny and fuel supply, and the growing solar array would provide small amount of electricity for comforts during the adjustment period.
Sadly, the way things are going, I don't fear it, but rather find myself looking forward to it. And to me, that's the spooky part.

Matt


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Ozarks Tom said:


> And what are our tax dollars doing to ensure the grid is hardened? Hearings.


They must have something in place that isn't common knowledge, some kind of backup system. Why do I think so? Because the govt now gets most of its money via the internet. All the withholding and SS and Mcare taxes have to be remitted online now. There used to be certain banks who were depositories for them, you could go to the bank with a special deposit slip - but not any more. You MUST remit online. So if the bulk of their revenue can only be received via the internet, there must be some kind of backup plan to power it. Or at least the part of it that they need.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

people with medical issues that require life savings medications will die shortly after the meds run out. Before then (starting about day 3-4 would be my bet) many will kill or be killed trying to loot food first from the stores and then from their neighbors. This will last for 6 months or so. Gangs will form by then and raid (pillage and rape). Smart farmers will band together, perhaps even hiring guards (payment being food/shelter) to defend against the gangs. Things would equalize in a couple years with small kingdoms as in the middle ages with the 'Lord of the Manor' supplying the guards (thugs?) and the serfs being taxed food and supplies.
Eventually we'd start this whole mess up again.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

I agree, the first ones to perish will be those with conditions that require medication, dialysis, etc. And I expect the cities to implode pretty quickly, since people will be trapped in all-electric, city-water, city-sewage homes without anywhere to go.

Collapse of the grid is one of the things our family has prepared for, as much as anyone can. We've focused on old-timey skills and we try to live simply. We have medication to survive for years unless there's a pandemic, and multiple ways to get clean water. We can grow enough to keep us alive, although we'd miss some things like coffee and bananas. We're also prepared to defend ourselves against invaders, although we'd need to band with neighbors to really be safe.

I've wanted solar panels for years, but those would be fried in an EMP strike or solar flare, so they wouldn't be much use anyway. We'd make do with flashlights/lanterns until the batteries/kerosene/lamp oil ran out, then go to candles.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

joseph97297 said:


> Would we die in the sense of lack of food or water or shelter....no. But since their is only one true sense of death, it is a toss up.
> 
> I like to think that I have hardened up my area enough to survive my toughest threat... other people.
> 
> ...


Then you have a well or spring and some way of pumping it to the surface. The people on city water will have a hard time. That is what the government has in mind.


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## bigjon (Oct 2, 2013)

will I die?probly not.only one med-grow most of our food.lots of deer/turkeys.nieghbor raises chickens and beef.2 clean wells(bailable)15 ACRES OF WOODS.LOTS OF SHELLS.nope won't die right away.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Assuming the grid is down long term, 90% of the US population would die in the first year. Most people don't have a week's worth of food in their homes. The entire supply chain is set up to replace that and it will be gone in a week or two, tops.....thus, food will be gone.

Heck, 5% of them will die from lack of cell phones and Facebook ( OK, that's a stretch...ahahahaa)

People who think we could revert to 1800's living overnight are kidding themselves. That technology and the skills it took are gone, for the most part. I would take years to reintroduce it, years most won't have. 

Gonna go back to horse power ? GOT work horses ? Got the tack to put on them ? Got the farm machinery they pulled ? Yes...there will be a tiny few who can say they do, probably less than a fraction of a percent.....YEARS for the rest of us, assuming we're still alive.


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

I honestly believe even the Amish would suffer greatly. They may outwardly appear primative, but lp refrigeration, electric milking machines, gas chainsaws, etc.
I know my family would be much better off than most, but life would still be a constant struggle, at least for a while.
Unfortunately, as mean, nasty, and horrible as this sounds, something like that is the only way to ensure the future survival and sustainability of mankind is some form of a mass genocide reducing the population.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

If the grid fails, you WILL die.
If the grid doesn't fail, you WILL die.
No matter what you do you WILL die.
It's more a matter of WHEN not IF.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

Not at first I dont think..but if it was long term..I believe so..in fact I believe most will if the grid is down more than 3 months...not necessarily just from loss of power but from the ramifications...famine..war...thugs...disease...all those other factors


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## anahatalotus (Oct 25, 2012)

I read this whole thread just to see you posted what I'm thinking....
But yeah if the grid went down I'm not going to make it long, something that truly frightens me. 


Danaus29 said:


> If the grid fails, you WILL die.
> If the grid doesn't fail, you WILL die.
> No matter what you do you WILL die.
> It's more a matter of WHEN not IF.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Sooner or later . . . yes I will.
With the . "Just in time" . .attitude in this country, I can't even begin to imagine the absolute chaos there will be when those "supply" trucks are long gone.
Protecting one's self from the urban zombie insanity will be top priority for some while.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Well, I've been dying for 68 years, but I'm not done with the process yet. Don't get me wrong, I'm not fatalistic (we've got the B,B,B). But, as the article points out, many who think an EMP would be just a bump in the road on the way to a "simpler" life are underestimating the hardships.

One big difference between our modern society and previous times is the huge amount of information gleaned over the centuries. We won't "unlearn" how to generate power, or make steel, but the time lapse between collapse and regeneration will surely be catastrophic.


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## RebelDigger (Aug 5, 2010)

No way will we go back to 1800s lifestyle. We don't have the infrastructure to do it nor do people have in their homes the material culture to do it. How are you going to plow a garden when you don't have a plow, tiller, cultivator and harrow that are horse drawn? Or a horse? What about when the horses need to be shod? How many blacksmiths are there around to make shoes? If the shoes can be made, how many farriers are around? Not enough. How are you going to replace those candles when there is not a candlemaker in the village? If you have molds and enough bees maybe you could make your own at home but even then can you produce enough? Even in the 19th Century there were transportation routes for goods to come in to even the most rural settings. They had sailing ships and steam engine trains, heck they even had stage coaches and the Pony Express! None of those things exist anymore in any great quantity and the ones that do are in museums mostly.

Dh and I reenact mid 19th Century life (he used to do Civil War soldier but now we are both civilians). Many times I have run into a situation where I needed a certain period item to do a task with for our reenacting and could not find it. Heck, this spring finally, after searching for 5 years, I finally was able to track down and purchase a pinking iron! Needed it to recover my antique parasols, it is what makes the scalloped edges in the silk. When I found it I paid dearly for it too! Of course, in a grid down situation I would not be worrying about pinking irons and parasols but, I used that as an example of needing something that you would otherwise take for granted that is not available. You would not believe the items that were readily available back then that you just cannot find today. So, even if a person had the money and the time to collect things needed, good luck finding them!

The only way I can see us living a 19th Century lifestyle if the grid goes down would be one that would resemble the blockaded South during the war. Read "Erzatz in the Confederacy" for an eye opener, or Mary Chestnut's diary. People were cold, dressed in rags and starving. And that was people who WERE 19th Cenutry people and used to living without electricity.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

Some people died here during an 8+ day power outage following an October snowstorm in 2011.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Ozarks Tom said:


> We won't "unlearn" how to generate power, or make steel, but the time lapse between collapse and regeneration will surely be catastrophic.


I don't know Tom....the Romans came up with Portland Cement and concrete, and that knowledge was lost with the fall of the empire/dark ages, and not re-discovered until the late 18th century.


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## dogbone62 (Jan 1, 2014)

Well, truth be told we all will. But this thread has got me to thinking. The one thing I'd never considered was this. We will still have some smart people. IE- engineers, etc... They understand how things work. They have an understanding of mechanical things that 100-200 years ago we're not even thought possible. With all the Macgivers out there some things will quickly be reborn.
Hmmm. The possibilities. Drawbridges for a toll. Let's get thinking about this. It's our future so let's be ahead of the game.


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## Lilith (Dec 29, 2012)

Interesting thoughts here. I'm not surprised by the number of people in this forum that believe they would survive, for a good while at least. The nature of the membership indicates that we are the few who are not afraid to do things for ourselves. I find more information and knowledge here than anywhere else on the lost skills and self sustainability. 

My biggest hurdle to overcome in the event of grid failure is fat. Not just the fat I am packing around the middle of my body, but also the fat we cut off our steaks this past weekend. The last few years I have gotten pretty good at making most things we need in the home except for fat. I just can't raise/grow enough of it. I have learned the basics of making ethanol fuel and bio diesel, but the trouble is getting enough fats and vegetable oils. I suppose this is the trade off I am making - I'm a decent mechanic, and a not so decent cowboy. This means as long as I can get enough fat and oil for fuel, I will have an old tractor (1940's 8n ford) that I can keep running for years. I will also have fuel for the genny till I can get a wind turbine setup (in the works now) and fuel for water pumps. All in all, I'm pretty well set to survive going off grid. A sudden outage will step up my timeline significantly, but I eventually plan to anyway. 
One thing I have not considered about going off grid is in the event that everyone is suddenly off grid. This poses a huge problem.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

No dought about it, there will be a bunch who survive because they are capable of using there brain.

But the monster that I see is mostly the urban areas that will get pretty darn nasty when they are hungry.
I have seen some pretty interesting figures about the "time frame" of the huge die off expected. Not pretty.

I for one sure do not want to get involved with the mobs .. . .defending my two jars of peanut butter.......


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

People will die regardless if the grid is up or down just as they always have.

As far as the grid being up or being down, as time goes on the grid status becomes less defined anyway.

Sometimes after a natural disaster folks are ecstatic that their cell phone still work and the "grid" is up although their neighborhood looks like Benghazi. At the same time cities lose power and or water for 8 hours and folks act as if the world is ending.

The day before our last major 16 day grid failure we grilled out, took a shower and curled up in bed with my pistol under my pillow as we watched a movie.

The next day after the sun set we grilled out, enjoyed looking at the more easily viewed stars, took a shower, went to bed with my pistol under my pillow and watched a movie.

Did the same for the rest of the grid down time and when it was over I restocked my supplies while realizing a $150 savings from not driving as much or leaving my home place for entertainment during the previous two weeks.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Most people are accustomed to being comfortable, well fed and entertained. They are soft. Will they survive? NO.

FOOD, Shelter, and Water will soon require a hardened body, experience, tools and a stiff backbone to obtain.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Shrek said:


> The day before our last major *16 day grid failure* we grilled out, took a shower and curled up in bed with my pistol under my pillow as we watched a movie.
> 
> The next day after the sun set we grilled out, enjoyed looking at the more easily viewed stars, took a shower, went to bed with my pistol under my pillow and watched a movie.
> 
> Did the same for the rest of the grid down time and *when it was over I restocked my supplies *while realizing a $150 savings from not driving as much or leaving my home place for entertainment during the previous two weeks.


That in bold is the issue. We've all likely had short outages like this ( though a couple weeks seems like forever ), and then RESTOCKED.

The problem is with an EMP or CME hit, there won't be any restocking for a heck of a long time, if ever....so loosing the grid for a short time and a LONG time is an apples to oranges comparison.

THEN add in that the grid would be down virtually everywhere.....not just your local region.....and that compounds the problem enormously....because even though there might a million cans of soup at the Campbell's Soup factory, you probably aren't getting any of them unless it's right down the road from you.

When one really sits and thinks of the scale of a disaster the total lack of electrical power would be, it's almost unimaginable....it really IS enough to want to make you stick your head in the sand and hope for the best.

Unfortunately, hope isn't much of a plan.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

When the civilization (i.e. the grid) goes down first thing is the thieving and shooting begins and some try to reestablish the grid. Those who survive the shooting enjoy the new civilization grid. Those who die during the shooting don't. Or the grid goes down without a shot and those who lived within it simply just start living within the reestablished grid as most of us do now since the grid of 30 years ago collapsed to be replaced by the current smart grid reestablishment.

Where just 10 years ago a meter reader came to read the power and water meter and then carried the sheets in for the utility company to generate the bill, power and water are now telecomm read from the utility offices and can be turned on or off from the main office and in many areas the majority of customers pay their utilities online to save money.

At the same time that utilities went smart grid, linemen stopped training in use of pole spurs and hot sticks to reset tripped relays and the number of service crews have been reduced by about 30%

Nobody will ever live forever and those who live to see a new civilization grow will just accept what the new civilization requires of them and provides them.

Of course a few will provide their own primarily short term back up systems that might suffice as small scale primary systems if the current smart grids collapse for an adequate time but likely those few will not have adequate defenses to protect what they have until they can actually enjoy the new grid environment.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

We have power outages here pretty often. It's amazing how unprepared people are. Within hours the stores are sold out of candles, lamp oil, convenience foods, and people are throwing fits and fighting at gas stations wanting to fuel up. 

If it gets that crazy for a few days outage, I can only imagine how it will be if there is a long term outage. 

On the other hand, we have friends who live in the mountains with no power or running water. They don't even know when the power goes out. They are the ones people call crazy and weird. But they are the ones who know how to survive an EMP and the failing economy. They grow most of what they use and can get along for a very long time without any contact with the modern world. 

I've had a lot of power outages that lasted a few hours or a few days, and a few that lasted 2 or 3 weeks. It's hard to make the adjustment, but once we got used to no power, it was almost culture shock when the power came back on. We did have access to areas with power so could still drive to the store, buy gas for the truck, and almost live the same as with power. 

The last outage we had I used it as a test. We were close to failure. It was really hard to resist running to the store for a pizza instead of cooking beans in a solar oven. I learned that 500 lbs of salt is overkill, and depending on a freezer to store meat is not sustainable. All my meat is now either canned, dried, or on the hoof. No more depending on undependable systems for me. It hurts to much to try to make the instant conversion when power is not available. Best to be ready for it BEFORE it happens.

I know my family will do better than average, but I also know it will be hard and there will be dangers we didn't think of in advance. People who can think on their feet will have a better chance, but if the plan is to steal from those who have prepared, they will not last long. 

I think a EMP would send us back to the early 1800's, not hundreds of years back. We will lose the modern items, but retain the knowledge gained over the past couple hundred years. We know that cleanliness is necessary. Sure there might be some who toss the slop out the front door and end up killing themselves, but many know the need to dig a pit for an outhouse, wash before handling food, etc. 

We know that tomatoes are not poison, and we are smart enough to know how to grow them. They didn't know these things in the middle ages so we are ahead of the curve in many ways. 

Overall, many will perish, but some will thrive. I believe the chance to be one of the survivors depends on having a continuation plan in place and knowing how to do what needs to be done to keep on surviving. 

You can almost stake your life on the fact that the gov (or what's left of it depending on the disaster) will find a way to come for what they consider you owe to them. Be ready for someone to collect taxes, demand your labor, or take you to a relocation camp. They have a continuation plan and it includes using you in whatever capacity they want.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

Nuclear plants without power would help in the die off. It has been explained well in other threads. Prison populations freed. Have meat on the hoof? Can you provide feed year round without fossil fuels? Have fossil fuels? Can you use them without attracting attention? Can you get your animals bred? What if your one roo or bull dies or is stolen? Can you read the weather well enough to make hay? What about water? What if your well dries up, even for two weeks? How do you heat/cool yourself? 

Even if we did go back to the 1800's, it would be sudden and most of us would have problems, some emotional, that we might find surprising. Not having knowledge at the press of some keys would be tough for me! Going without power in a small area is one issue, in a whole hemisphere is a whole different ballgame.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Try going without electricity, your vehicle, the internet, any phone service, the tv, radio, running water (both clean water and easy disposal of waste water), video games, the refrigerator or freezer, heat other than wood or coal, a/c, convenience foods including preground flour and see if your family can last a week without imploding.


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## Cookie2 (Feb 21, 2014)

I've stock piled most of my meds in hope that would give me time to try to wean off them or find natural substitutes. However, there are a couple I probably will never be able to stop entirely. Once those run out, I'll probably die.


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## Bret F (May 4, 2004)

Yep, I'm a goner. Unfortunately I depend on the modern world (better -and continued - living through chemicals.


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

A healthy person does not need electricity or gasoline to survive, they just need it to survive comfortably.

If you stay in the cities you will probably die. If you live, it will be a fairly miserable existence.

For those of us in the population dense northeast and and similar areas competition for resources will be a stone cold .

No one within a day or two of the ocean should ever starve.

Dogs and horses are plentiful.

Etc, etc, blah, blah blah...surviving is not thriving. Don't ever confuse the two.

But I do not buy the 90% dead argument.


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## soulsurvivor (Jul 4, 2004)

I think a significant portion of the world population will survive any type of global disaster. We're still here aren't we? I think humans as a species has been on earth as long as there has been an earth. Anything as mundane as an EMP or CME will only be a puff of problems for the general populations. 

The earth moving disasters are what's worrying for the effected locals and none can easily escape that complication of being in the wrong place at the wrong time scenario. We've all sat and watched news coverage of massive tsunamis, aftermath of major earthquakes, Fukushima events, storm damage. Significant populations get wiped almost daily and yet life continues. 

Here in the US we're more likely to die on the highway in a major traffic jam trying to escape to a safer locale. And don't say not me. Yes you and yes me and anyone that wants to escape a pending life ending disaster such as a chemical leak/explosion, a nuclear event, an earthquake, a volcano eruption, an incoming asteroid, whatever hurricane/tornado happens to be coming at you. If we're told to move out of the way or die, most likely we're going to try to move out of the way. And that's when life gets testy and uncertain and you're depending on your human brothers and sisters to coordinate a safe passage for you and yours. You can't sit in place if the atmosphere isn't breathable. 

So, if the grid fails, will I die? ha, not because of any grid failure but most likely because there is no longer a grid in place to fail because it's been ripped out of the ground by a huge Yellowstone eruption. And just because we might survive the initial disaster, that's no promise we'll survive what follows. But somewhere others will survive and life will continue.

For those who think they're going to sit on their toadstool and protect all their earthly stockpiles, get real and open your eyes and start burrowing underground. Surface life ain't going to work too well for your attitude.


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

If it is midwinter and the grid goes down, we are in tough shape. We could survive for a while though. Actually, we can keep our food from spoiling in winter and even keep frozen food frozen. But the house will be 45F on a cold day with only our small wood fireplace.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Cascade Failure said:


> A healthy person does not need electricity or gasoline to survive, they just need it to survive comfortably.


No, they don't need either.....*they just need the STUFF* that both provide to survive IN THIS COUNTRY.

Yes.....if you go to outer Mongolia, where they live in yurts and off yak milk/meat, and have done so for thousands of years, they won't be the least bit affected by lack of electric power.....they don't have it now.

But you take the AVERAGE person in THIS country, a country that does not have those primitive skills, nor do they HAVE a yak, THEY will flat be in a hurt. I'm telling you, there will be a HUGE die off, whether you believe it or not.

Food: It takes 1,500-2,000 calories a day for the average person to keep living long term. How many people in this country raise enough food to do that ? Dogs and horses ? ahahahahaaaa.....ok.....what happens when those are eaten in the first few months ?? How many people in this country actually know how to raise food, without being able to get seed provided by the electric and gasoline, without fuel for their tractor/tiller, and so on. The problems of the lack of food could take books alone.

Water: My guess is about 90% of the US population depends on electric power to get a drink of CLEAN, BIO-HAZARD FREE water, either via central water systems, or by their own well. Can they go suck it out of a mud puddle ? Sure.....and the diseases that follow will decimate them. Can they boil water ? Sure.....if they can gather enough fuel between finding things to eat. Can they live without bathing/handwashing/etc ? Sure...folks did so in ages past.....of course, a whole bunch of 'em died from poor sanitation too. 

Heating: You live in the northeast. How cold does it get there in the winter ? How do you plan to heat your house ? Remember, there is no fuel for a chainsaw if you do own one, and have a way to burn wood. Got axes ? Got crosscut saw ? Most EVERYBODY north of the Mason Dixon line is gonna freeze to death ( and a fair number of us below it. Record low for my area of TN was -25. )

And let's just assume you get past all of the above (and more), what's the plan for the DOZENS of 'Fukishimas' that ARE gonna happen ( unless something changes in the near future ) when the spent fuel rod cooling pools run out of cooling water because the backup pumps ran out of diesel fuel ( they only plan on a couple of weeks backup ) and the rods melt down and start spewing radioactive crap all over the area around the dozens of nuclear plants around the country that are set up that way ?


You may not believe 90%.......but if the electric power ever stops in this country for an extended to indefinite period, you'll see it.


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## Vosey (Dec 8, 2012)

I've been reading this thread for a few days, thinking. What is our biggest issue for survival? We're pretty remote, the zombies from the city have a lot of farmland and a lot of trudging uphill before they get to us. But our town is about 650, a lot of hard up, heavy drinking, drug abusing (depending on the age group) people. Everyone with guns, lots with gardens though. Lots of others living out in the woods in the summer in trailer/tent "cities". 

I think our biggest threat is defense. I wouldn't have said that 2 months ago, but one of our neighbors moved. There are 3 of us over about 16 acres, the one who moved was a 'live off the land" old outlaw with a heart of gold. No question we'd all take care of each other. He finally got some land and now the rental house is empty. And our land isn't set up to be defensible without more people as it's only the 2 of us. The other neighbor's a possibility. We get along OK, we share a water system, but he gets drunk and beats his girlfriend. He's fine when sober. 

But I have medical skills to barter with and hope that will be protective. 

After the short term fallout I suspect people/towns will band together, create some sort of trade/barter system, have a semblance of order.


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## Vosey (Dec 8, 2012)

I'd also say it raises gardening to a new level. Seed saving, germination rates, water, weather, bugs all take on a new meaning.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Bugs!! I've got something eating my garden right now. Haven't been able to stop it cause I can't figure out what it is.:hair


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## cfuhrer (Jun 11, 2013)

simi-steading said:


> Well... on the bright side, at least the NSA wouldn't be able to spy on us any more...


Those of us carrying debt would breathe a little easier, too.

Our downfall is that right now we are a family of farm kids (with the knowledge of how to survive) stranded in suburgatory (we moved to where the work was) in an area not conducive to unassisted agriculture (lots of public land in easy walking distance but it is all arid, high desert).

As soon as the debt is gone we will probably be moving back closer to our families in an area more hospitable to living off grid, or go to work making off grid living in the desert more possible.


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

TnAndy said:


> No, they don't need either.....*they just need the STUFF* that both provide to survive IN THIS COUNTRY.
> 
> Yes.....if you go to outer Mongolia, where they live in yurts and off yak milk/meat, and have done so for thousands of years, they won't be the least bit affected by lack of electric power.....they don't have it now.
> 
> ...


Food is easy to grow or find, especially if you team up with some of those city folks who don't know how...labor, security, etc...

Water, if you're too stupid to put a bucket out in a rain storm when you're thirsty you should die. Yeah, that's an over simplification.

Heat, your thermostat doesn't have to read 72. Ever. Humans need shelter more than heat. Heat again is easy. Many if not most wood burners keep a year's worth or three on hand. But I do have hand tools.

Nukes plants...I don't know. We'll see.

Hygiene is easy, now that we understand it.

90%...no.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Cascade Failure said:


> Food is easy to grow or find, especially if you team up with some of those city folks who don't know how...labor, security, etc...
> 
> Water, if you're too stupid to put a bucket out in a rain storm when you're thirsty you should die. Yeah, that's an over simplification.
> 
> ...



With that attitude, you'd die here. A bucket in a rain storm.... what happens when that buckets dry and it hasn't rained in a month? Unless you like tumble weeds and mesquite the food is very fast and hard to catch. Can't grow it, no water.


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

> Heck, 5% of them will die from lack of cell phones and Facebook ( OK, that's a stretch...ahahahaa)



I know you were joking, but seriously - some people do not know what to do with themselves without some sort of electronic sensory input. They either completely shut down & sleep... or start bouncing off the walls with excess energy (and no productive focus). It's become the great numbing drug of civilization. No thinking required; yet your brain is tricked into thinking you're doing something.

Passivity will kill a lot of people. As will despair - when the realization hits, that they have spent all day doing nothing except keeping a fire going, cooking, and cleaning up with primitive methods. Go primitive camping for a taste of what this is like; often. Then, think about the technology of the late 1800s and early 1900s. That simplified a lot of those basic need tasks. NOW, take what we know about technology -- sans power -- and try to improve on that century old technology.

If we start thinking & imagining now, at least we'll have some ideas about what's needed to scavenge to build this kind of thing, post-whatever.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Hygiene with out your store bought goodies and running water . . . .
There's a big percent of sheeples gonna have a problem with that . . . .
Heat . . . . .Even at 50f in a home . . .
.After the brutal winter we just went through .. . 
There's gonna be a whole lot of peoples gonna have a problem with that......

You flippantly make it sound simple . . . .IT IS NOT


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Yep.....it's so simple Jim......we'll all just work together, grow food and sit around the campfire in the evening singing folks songs over cups of hot chocolate.

OK....Say this event hits Thanksgiving Day, for example. 

MOST places in the US ( Florida/Southern California might be an exception), the growing season is over for 3-5 months. The weather alone is going to prevent you from growing anything, even assuming you have seed, tools, space prepared, and so on.....and most definitely do not. 

You do know MOST people, even preppers, order their seed in late winter for that spring, right ?

Can they save open pollinated seed ? Sure. How many do ?

How many people have, *right NOW in their home*, enough food to last them 3-5 months ? 

That doesn't include most folks reading this forum.....I assume that folks that participate here DO practice prepping.....I mean the 99% of folks in this country whose food storage *is a store that they visit at least weekly.* A store that is NOT getting re-supplied anymore and whose shelves will be empty inside a day or two.

And that would have to be dried or canned food for the most part. Frozen stuff will have to be eaten in the first week, or most of it lost.

If you think this would be no big deal, then odds are very good you are going to be among the 90%.

Detroit today, the rest of America after electric power stops:


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Well after reading all the post and what I have been seeing too , I'm on the side of the 90% dead or close to dying. People around here dont even fish anymore. They would just curl up in a little ball and wait for help thats not comming......


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

Washing clothes in the winter brings on a whole set of issues. Minor compared with eating. Not minor to staying healthy.


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## Mutti (Sep 7, 2002)

I still can't get over the idea that the state I was born/raised in would just let Detroit die.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Mutti said:


> I still can't get over the idea that the state I was born/raised in would just let Detroit die.


It was an assisted suicide. Everybody who could have saved it turned their heads to avoid being call racist.


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

Assuming a heat/water source:

you can use a rubbermaid or commerical mop bucket, which has a wringer on it to wash clothes. Big tub with water, soap, and a plunger, to agitate... then rinse in the mop bucket wring and hang out.

Also: keep a set of clothes just for working outdoors. These will get washed when they stand up by themselves - LOL! Other clothes will be carefully kept clean and worn a few times, at least - before washing.

It hasn't been that long ago that running water wasn't taken for granted and conserved. Along with the designated "bath day" and "wash day".


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

sand flea said:


> Assuming a heat/water source:
> 
> you can use a rubbermaid or commerical mop bucket, which has a wringer on it to wash clothes. Big tub with water, soap, and a plunger, to agitate... then rinse in the mop bucket wring and hang out.
> 
> ...


This a basically what we do now - we wear our farm clothes until they are really filthy, and we wear our "going to town" clothes several times unless we sweat a lot in them. I know people who wash their bath towels after every use but we only wash socks and underwear (and sports uniforms) after one wearing.

We've also got a washtub, plunger and manual wringer in case I can't use the washing machine one day.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Come on now face it . . .Way to many people grossly abuse "running water".
And how many of them would be in deep doo-doo if they only had at most one gallon per day .??
Yup . . .not having 40 gallons of hot water for a shower . . . . .per day . . . 
They would not know what to do but panic.......
EEEuuu .. . . . . Not washing a pair of jeans after half a days use . . . .
and of course the toilet.......

The lack of running water will effect a very very BIG bunch of sheeple......


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

How many who have livestock would be able to provide all the needs for those animals without the local farm store? I've been giving this a lot of thought because even if I were home every day and able to cut and dry the grass for hay for a few rabbits I also need to consider their bedding and water needs. And mine are terribly spoiled with an air conditioner. With no way to cool their shed they wouldn't last long. In the winter I would need to come up with a way to thaw their water dishes at least once a day, maybe more. I could set them up in the crawl space under the house but then they would have no light and no air circulation. And really, they are not set up for any system of waste disposal other than some sort of absorbent substance in their litter pans. Sure they would be okay for a month or so but what about after that??? 

As for the garden, I have a couple small gardens I can work with hand tools only but today I dug some planting holes in the big garden and wore myself out. This one is not in good enough shape to be worked by hand.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

As crazy as it may seem, my main concern is my pain medication and my wife's medication for epilepsy and high blood pressure! 
Of course she has a doctor that prescribes her meds to her, but I am her real doctor! 
I have had to talk to her doctors several times to get her regulated to the correct amount of her meds, and still yet, she is taking less than 2/3 of her prescriptions an day so that has allowed me to stock pile close to a years supply so far and were still adding to that every month! 
I can see it in her eyes when Stephanie isn't Stephanie, and that goes with too much as well as it does with too little meds! 
Her blood pressure had been about on the mark since I began that approach and she hasn't had seizer for over six years now, taking lees than prescribed! 
The thought about doing it came to me a good while back when I started looking into survival and I came to wonder, "What If!" 
I decided then, that instead of arguing with her doctors about them giving her too many meds, take the reins and take them off myself! 
Plus she has lost 45 lbs. 
Don't ask me why but she has! 
As for me, I only need all my pain meds if I am going to work hard! If it is a day working in the house, or even the shop, I can make it on half or even less if it's a rainy day with nothing to do but watch TV!

As for food, we have been stock piling dried food such as beans, (And we have a gross verity) instant potato's, rice, flour, corn meal, and the list goes on for a few years when it is "REALLY" on sale! 
And if I have the time this year, I am going to build a solar dehydrator and go to the mountains when the peaches and apples come in for a few bushels at a time! 
Plus my cousins wife got a recipe for deer jerky a few years ago and sells it for $8.00 a lb. it is so good! And I can move my daughters bed and hunt deer from her window! 
Actually I can from our bedroom window in the front, but there are more that comes to the back yard just about every morning so that's where I hunt from, with a cup of coffee, the radio on, setting in my chair! 
I'll have to build a platform at the boiler to get to it, but, well I haven't designed it yet, but I have given some thought to designing a smoker that will use the smoke from the boiler to slow smoke the meat! And we have a vacuum sealer I bought at a yard sell for two bucks that works fine! 

That is the biggest reason that billions of people will die when TSHTF! 
The Vacuum Sealer cost $79.99 in 2001, and the woman said she only used it one time! Still had the original receipt with it, but it took a magnifying glass to read the faded numbers! 
The woman bought it new, but was too lazy to even spend the time to learn to use it and sold it to me for nearly a 98% mark down on the cost! 
How can anyone think they can continue to live that way? 

As far as heating and cooling goes, if the wtshtf scenario doesn't hit by next fall, I think that I can build a pretty good sized army to build a fort here to survive until the biggest part is over and the most have died off!
All I care really about, is my wife and children's survival! My wife is 9 year younger than I am, and my children are from 23 up to, oh God, my oldest daughter is looking at 40 in a couple of years. 
Ten years ago I would have embraced death and nearly met it at my own hands more than once because of the pain I suffered, but now I have a sense of survival instinct in me because of the wife, five kids, 17 grand kids and I know I have more on the way sooner or later! My youngest daughter still lives with us and is being extremely picky about who she gives her virginity too and I am happy about that!

Now as far as protection goes, unless I can indeed build an small army, there are only three of us to protect the four sides, so that is iffy to say the least! But I have taught my wife and daughter both to fire every weapon we have! I have several rifles and three pistols in .22 caliber! I did that because WTSHTF, bricks of bullets go a long ways compared, dollar for dollar, to my 30.06 bullets and the weapon and ammo are much easier to carry than the larger calibers.

Time will tell if I am, or am not prepared for TSHTF scenarios that may or may not play out! 

One other thing that I hadn't thought of, is there are three Mexican families that live just around the corner to us, and when we got the bad snow this past winter, three of them had their cars off the road and one kept driving back and fourth and I couldn't figure out why! 
A younger friend came up and I asked him what was going on, and he told me! 
As far as the Mexican's were concerned, Superman had came to the rescue!
It wasn't hard to deal with> I told Bradley to go tell them not to do anything else and I'd be out in a minute and was after dressing for the 13* cold out there! 
There wasn't but one that spoke English fair, and that was hard! I still had to show him what to do mostly with hand signals, but they all do learn that really fast!
I had them get together and they nearly picked the front and then the rear of the first car off the ground but they got it in the road. And when I told the driver what to do, he motioned for me to drive so I did! I backed her up the hill as far as she'd go and then forward and back and fourth until I made it to the end of the street and just spun it around ready for the trip home! 
"WE" all got the rest of them home and the next day I was bombarded with visits and food from them all! 
Now don't get me wrong here, because I'll be the first to tell anyone, even the legal Mexican immigrants that we need tighter border control. 
But 30 years ago, before this become an issue, when I was contracting, I worked a few and as bad as I hate to say it, they'll work an American into the ground, and I am speaking of myself 30 years ago and as small as I am, I made large American feel shame many times! Paying for it now but it was fun back then!
But I am pretty certain that WTSHTF, if it should happen sooner than later, counting all of them, and the few old timers left and their kids, who are all grown now with kids, and would surely get back to Ma's or Pop's place if on foot, that live within a half square mile of me, and the rest of the neighbors, most of who I knew from before we ever moved back onto this street, who all know me well, I'll have my small army! 

I am glad that this post was started because it has made me do some serious thinking about when TSHTF, and I see it on the horizon, but am hoping it will be later than sooner, but still before I am departed from the face of the earth! 
The reason I say that is because I don't know a single person, other than my close family, that has clue as to what lays ahead of us! 
I beg you Jesus, give me another 18 months and we'll be prepared! Amen

Godspeed

Ranger



I have a set of book shelves that has many trades in then that has been lost over the years,


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I could live for a while until the food I've stored runs out if the grid collapses but I can't sleep without electricity and without sleep it's hard to keep going for long.

I think it's time to build a solar food dryer and learn how to use it this summer.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

This thread reminds me of an episode of Anthony Bourdain's "parts unknown". I just watched the one where he goes to the Congo. Here's a place where they had a thriving infrastructure in the early part of last century...roads, electricity, hotels, etc. All this happened under Dutch rule. But when the Congo people took back their independence the Dutch left and the infrastructure crumbled.

They have trains that dont go anywhere. The roads have turned back to jungle. The only electricity is from small personal generators. There is one outpost, a research center in the middle of the jungle that once housed thousands of dutch scientists researching agriculture. Now it is down to a dozen laborers who just maintain the main building and library. Only one or two receive a stipend from the government ( for now as the government is constantly changing ).There is no research at all going on there, but they cut the grass, clean the inside of the building and try to keep the books from rotting. Very strange to see these people, cut off from all other society, simply maintaining an abandoned facility with no real purpose other than that is simply what they have been doing for 60 years. They have no idea what the books say, or how to use the equipment.

When asked, some of the older Congo folk say that under dutch rule it was the best time to live....even though the brutality and segregation that the dutch employed were shocking.

Anyway, anyone who would like to see how a civilization crumbles might want to check out that episode. Of course, here in America the average person does not have the survival skills that the average African congo jungle person has. They quickly reverted to a primitive state beneath the rotting bones of the old civilization.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Water would be an issue. We as a family need 75 gallons a day. I know this because I used to have to haul it from the well head run on ele but the line to the house was frozen. It was so hard on me. Now the boy is a man and can now share the work but getting the water up 80 feet ......I am not prepared. That is being honest. 

Now add in that my Dhaka is disabled and is very negative when it comes to their boy and I working .....claims that every job is impossible to do by hand. 

In his mind carrying wood by hand is impossible that unless we have a atv why cut doe the dead trees in our woods. That we should ask the church members to at least loan us one.

Even when the boy and I work with out him and do.it he complains that ......ok so you did it big deal look at how you wasted the time doing it your way .

With every task being hard to do his negativity would grind Down on me.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I've been thinking about this again the past few days. If tshtf even though I have a pressure canner, I will eventually run out of lids. My electric dehydrator won't work. I won't be able to get storage bags. And a person can live only so long on violet leaves, daylily roots, and boiled raccoons.

A crosscut saw looks like a great investment. 

I think my biggest concern will be my mom. Not knowing how she is faring will get to me really quick.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Danaus29 said:


> I've been thinking about this again the past few days. If tshtf even though I have a pressure canner, I will eventually run out of lids. My electric dehydrator won't work. I won't be able to get storage bags.


All true, of course. Some things we've done along that line.

1. We store a LOT of 'one time' canning lids....on the order of 5-6,000. I got an order in from Goodmans.net just the other day with 2 packs of 36 boxes of wide mouth lids for replacing what we will use this year plus about 30%.....building our stockpile year by year. (72 boxes of 12 were $192.98......$2.68/box ) We also store couple hundred Tattler lids. I figure we could go 10 years just on lids, and that's assuming we used them only once. If I thought we'd never get replacements, I'd be taking them off real careful, washing and reusing any I could.

2. The sun is the best dehydrator going. You could simply build a black box with some racks and ventilation and, with some careful monitoring, do as good as any electric model. You could even put a small solar powered fan on it, since most of the power use in a regular dehydrator is used as the heating element.

3. Yep, plastic storage bags are going to be missed, for sure. But people lived without them before their were such things. Store a bunch, and when they're gone, they are gone.

The thing about having a LOT of stuff put away is it gives you the TIME to relearn, if you're not already doing so, the skills of things like food preservation from more simple times. 

*People with little or nothing put away have no time to learn.* It's do or die time RIGHT NOW. That's 90% of America. You see where this is going ?

Always assume that Mr. Murphy, and his laws, are going to work hand in hand with any disaster like EMP or CME. People think that they can just throw a few seeds in the ground ( assuming they can PREPARE the ground ), and have food coming out their ears. 

The odds are, they won't get much of anything their first shot at it, it won't be in time to save them from starving to death, and if you combine Murphy's Laws into it, heat, drought, bugs and raiding, starving neighbors will get it all anyway......so you really need one growing season of food stuck away, and maybe another. How many folks you know that do that ? 

Back to that 90% figure. Heck, 10% survival might even be optimistic.

I hope to goodness it never happens, because it will truly be hell on earth.....but I'm not stupid enough to think it CAN'T happen simply because life has been great up until this point. The only universal constant is that things change.


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## poorboy (Apr 15, 2006)

having had my parents divorce at an early age and being taken in by my paternal grandmother, I have lived (for a year or two)life without electricity except for lights..
Granma still had an Ice-box,water was hand pumped or drawn from a dug well,yard was mowed with an engine less mower..I learned to help at an earlie age, carrying wood,yard mowing, drawing water...the only differance at this time from the way we had been living was mom'n'dad had a refrigerator..:awh:


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## poorboy (Apr 15, 2006)

kasilofhome said:


> Water would be an issue. We as a family need 75 gallons a day. I know this because I used to have to haul it from the well head run on ele but the line to the house was frozen. It was so hard on me. Now the boy is a man and can now share the work but getting the water up 80 feet ......I am not prepared. That is being honest.
> 
> Now add in that my Dhaka is disabled and is very negative when it comes to their boy and I working .....claims that every job is impossible to do by hand.
> 
> ...


I once turned a small garden with a spade and made it with a hoe...had tomatoes, lettuce, onions etc. got absolutely no help from my wife...the 31 yrs we were married she showed a great disdain for manual labor..second wife is willing to attempt anything under my leadership OR Hers..:clap:


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Danaus29 said:


> How many who have livestock would be able to provide all the needs for those animals without the local farm store? I've been giving this a lot of thought because even if I were home every day and able to cut and dry the grass for hay for a few rabbits I also need to consider their bedding and water needs. And mine are terribly spoiled with an air conditioner. With no way to cool their shed they wouldn't last long. In the winter I would need to come up with a way to thaw their water dishes at least once a day, maybe more. I could set them up in the crawl space under the house but then they would have no light and no air circulation. And really, they are not set up for any system of waste disposal other than some sort of absorbent substance in their litter pans. Sure they would be okay for a month or so but what about after that???
> 
> As for the garden, I have a couple small gardens I can work with hand tools only but today I dug some planting holes in the big garden and wore myself out. This one is not in good enough shape to be worked by hand.




Do your cages have solid bottoms? Our cages are all wire with a wooden resting board that they never sit on but love to chew on. Our goats would have to have a very well armed supervised forage during the day and the chickens would have to forage as well. I think we could collect enough for the rabbits. Keeping them cool enough without the fans and misters would be difficult but I don't think impossible. Under our house is downright cold sometimes so I'm sure we could slide the cages under there during the day and bring them out at night for fresh air and a good looking over. The horses, well, they would likely go for dog food. Not enough surface water for them.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Some have solid bottoms, some don't. I know we could set up a catch and drain system for the wire bottom cages. Pretty nasty but it could be done. When we first got rabbits we originally ad the cages setting outside and we cleaned underneath as needed. But outside would mean being exposed to predators, 2 and 4 legged. And if they are in the crawl space things would get nasty real quick. It's something that needs some thought and revision.


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## cfuhrer (Jun 11, 2013)

Danaus29 said:


> Some have solid bottoms, some don't. I know we could set up a catch and drain system for the wire bottom cages. Pretty nasty but it could be done. When we first got rabbits we originally ad the cages setting outside and we cleaned underneath as needed. But outside would mean being exposed to predators, 2 and 4 legged. And if they are in the crawl space things would get nasty real quick. It's something that needs some thought and revision.


Might consider converting to a colony system in a SHTF situation.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I have considered that. The pen is practically ready now. I guess I could eat rabbit if that was what I had right outside the door. Not my first choice by a long shot though.

I'll just have to keep enough bedding on hand to outlast the raccoon assault I'd have to face before leaving them in their outdoor pen at night.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I know I've posted on this thread before. I did not go back and read my older post b/c I don't want it to influence this post. 

I live so far back in the middle of nowhere that I'm unaware of a lot of the modern things that people depend on today. I have the standards like; icebox, oven, A/C, freezer, TV, computer, etc. But there are a lot of things I don't depend on. I have a excalibur and use it a lot, but before I had it I had learned to build a solar dehydrator. It would not be hard to go back to the solar unit. 

The point is that if we never start using a lot of the modern things, we won't miss them when they are gone (smart phone? ipod? what are they?) I miss power when it goes out, but after the first couple of days, I do just fine without it. 

I've learned a couple new ways to garden this year. One of them allows me to grow many foods inside year round, even if it's below freezing outside. Another type (Back to Eden garden) taught me how to grow a garden and orchard with no watering. I'm currently building a eden garden so if I can get it completed, it will go a long way towards making me more independent. I'm working on getting the greenhouses built. I've learned about rocket mass heaters using an old fashion method that we've almost lost today. A few sticks can keep a building warm for days (small sticks, not logs.) If I can figure out how to put one in my house I can cut my firewood usage to less than a tenth of what it is now. 

I'm currently learning how to ferment foods. I had no idea that almost all fruits and veggies can be stored by fermentation instead of freezing, drying, or canning. That will be a really good transformation from power to shelf storage for a lot of foods. 

We have so much knowledge out there that any of us can learn how to survive without power IF we do the learning while it's just a few clicks away. Once we lose the internet, how will we learn these things? Will we ever have access to them again? 

I feel a increased need to learn everything I can as fast as possible. INK INK INK... hard copies of it all so I can share with others and pass it down the generations.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Spinner said:


> A few sticks can keep a building warm for days (small sticks, not logs.) If I can figure out how to put one in my house I can cut my firewood usage to less than a tenth of what it is now.


Spinner,

I agree with a lot of what you say, and don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're being way optimistic on those heaters. 

A pound of wood ( any species ) has around 8600 BTU in it, and assuming you can burn it at 100% efficiency (pretty hard to get close to that short of lab conditions), that isn't very much heat.

For a 10 ft by 10 ft room (100sqft) with an 8 ft ceiling, with all surfaces insulated to R19 as recommended by the U.S. Department of Energy, with inside temperature 68Â°F and outside temperature 28Â°F, the heat loss would be 16,128 BTU per 24hrs. 

Assuming you can get 80% of the BTU out of the wood (EXTREMELY dry wood and very little heat up the chimney ) as heat into that 10x10 room, you'd need 2 1/2 to 3 lbs of wood for JUST that room. 

1000sqft house with same specs ? 15-25lbs of wood per day. (whole house does better than a single room since the interior walls don't have the temperature difference of inside/outside)

There is just no getting around the science, no matter how you burn it.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

A good Russian stove/heater with all that huge mass of stone --Will-- take more that "a few sticks" just to "warm" it up. 
With out all the thermal mass of a Russian, any 'rocket' gizmo will take many many sticks to keep out the cold.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

The rocket mass heater has enough mass to absorb the heat. If done 'right' it will approach 100% efficiency. As the room cools down you can sit on the heater and still be comfortable. I want one in my new home too.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

Let me fix this post the op asks 
*If the grid fails, will you die?* 

I think maybe he meant when the grid fails will you die. with all the open borders there may be 10,000 or more terrorists the country now.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I think some of you are thinking in terms of BTU output rather than MASS heat. A rocket mass heater contains a lot of mass that holds heat. It has pipes that run thru the mass to distribute the heat to the mass. The mass holds the heat for a long time, unlike heated air that floats up and away, cooling quickly.

A mass heater doesn't have a chimney. It has an exhaust pipe that exhausts almost nothing. No smoke. The sticks burn sideways so only the bottoms burn off while the tops remain unburned until the bottoms are gone, then they drop and the next part of the stick burns. A small bundle of sticks can heat the mass because of the way they burn. The heat from the fire goes into the mass, not up a chimney. 

I'm always open to learning new things and this one is well worth learning about. There are little rocket cooking stoves, but this is very different. It will keep the heat for at least 1/2 a day after the fire is out. Maybe longer depending on the size and materials. 

There's a lot of info online where people have shared their successes and failures. What materials worked well and what materials didn't. What size was best, too big or too little. Lots of research needed before building, but I think it would be worth it to have one in a greenhouse and in a home. I wish I had a 2 or 3 of them in my house. They can even be used to heat water. 

Here's a video by some people who build them professionally that explains it slightly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwEvj-JqUoQ


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Here's another one. I don't really like this one, but that's personal choice: [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wqJQmD-eVo[/ame]


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

and Geoff Lawton's mass water heater. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oDpmmsqHwQ[/ame]


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Wish I could get Erica and Ernie to come build me one at my new place!


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

> With every task being hard to do his negativity would grind Down on me.


The "can't do" attitude will do in quite a few people, but you don't have to be one. Shut your ears, and if he persists: tell him he's only allowed to talk about how something should be done -- when HE DOES IT.

In some ways, this is a form of denial, too. I don't know how many times I've flipped a light switch just to be "sure" the power was out - LOL.


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## happ (Jun 2, 2014)

I don't know for sure if I would survive. Right now electricity is a needful thing. I could survive without it, but it would be very difficult. I do have a garden, and bees,rabbits and chickens. I catch fish from the river, and I'm going hunting when the season comes. I could do a solar dehydrator, I have made soap and could do a smokehouse. My current sewing machine is electric, although I am looking for a treadle one. I'm learning how to tan furs and skins, and hope to learn to spin fibers. Finding enough lids for canning might be hard. It would take trial and error to learn to cook on a wood cookstove. I collect rainwater now, but sometimes the buckets do run dry. I also use grey water for the garden. The ones I feel for are the younger ones, who don't know, and don't care to learn. They will be the ones to suffer. I even have old traps if needed. Of course, they are illegal to trap animals, but they might be helpful to keep marauders out of my stockpile!


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

Rocket stoves are the way to go I built one last year to heat water for our off grid home. The build is over in alt energy maybe a few pages back by now. I have found that a full load in the fire box gives enough hot water for dishes and three showers. That's 20" split oak it works better for getting hot water in one go than twigs and stuff. We try to split it small 3/4" to 1 1/2". With split oak it heats 50 gallons from ambient to 150* in roughly an hour. If you really need it hot hickory works even better. Have to be careful though our system uses a 50 gal electric hot water tank for storage. If you burn it to hard the tank could blow. We of course use an over temp over pressure relief valve.

If anyone hunts up the build there are things I would change but overall it works real well. The main change I would make is to make it big enough to line with fire brick. I doubt the 3/16ths steel I used will last long as it turns anywhere from cherry red (+-1200*) to brilliant yellow orange (+-1800*). It is warping some now. 

Larry


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Spinner said:


> I think some of you are thinking in terms of BTU output rather than MASS heat. A rocket mass heater contains a lot of mass that holds heat.


It can't hold more heat than the wood burning produces. 

That is measured by the BTU content of the wood. Again, you can't do and end run around physics, though a lot of people on YouTube think otherwise.

One of the BEST forms of mass is water. Water will hold several times more heat than any brick or mortar. The definition of a BTU is the amount of heat required to raise one pound of water one degree Fahrenheit.


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