# Chivalry is dead it seems! RANT



## ejagno (Jan 2, 2008)

I've always prided myself in the fact that I was born and reared in the most hospitable area of the world, Cajun country. An area where manners were always paramount, women were ladies and men were absolutely gentlemen. I grew up where men always protected and looked out for the females. Yet, today I'm saddened because the younger generations haven't a clue and the others that are old enough to know better just don't care about anyone but themselves.

We own a restaurant. Most nights we don't get out of there until 10pm at the earliest. DH always makes sure that there are men scheduled to work until closing so the females aren't closing alone. I've already had the pleasure of walking in on a robbery in progress once and another incident involving a street bum the second time. We've decided that from now on there is strength in numbers and most trouble makers step back when there is a man present instead of just small females that they can intimidate.

Tonight I walked up on a conversation with the 3 male employees scheduled until closing, arguing over who was going to stay with the females since they'd all finished their work early. They resented the fact that they had to assume the role of "body guard" at closing. In all honesty it would probably be us women protecting their scrawny rears (I'm armed! They are not.) but nevertheless............

I told all three to clock out and go home and reminded them that I didn't need them for security but simply a deterrent in numbers, also known as team work by looking out for one another. 

They hauled it out of there like the place was on fire leaving me and another little tiny waitress alone with 5 intoxicated men sitting at a table. There is not a single minute that these employees have stayed that they were not compensated for, but I guess in today's world even that doesn't matter. They didn't think twice about leaving two women alone. 

DH was livid when I got home and told him about how they resented having to play "body guard" for the closing females. He used words such as spineless, lacking intestinal fortitude and a few other choice words. DH gets there before 6am every morning so he leaves around 8-9pm to get home and get some rest. He trusted that we females were in good hands with these guys. These younger and lazy guys only relate to chivalry as something from the medieval days consisting of horses and knights.

They really should have considered how this will impact them in the near future. I make the schedules and I write their checks. You can be assured those three will no longer be working the closing shift. The closing shift is when the largest tips are made. Evening tips are generally double and triple what the day shift makes. Gosh, I hope they didn't have big Christmas shopping plans. That paid 15 minutes of their time to help co-workers get to their cars safely will cost them dearly.


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## housewife (Mar 16, 2006)

If my boys ever pulled a stunt like that I would box there ears!! I have stayed late unpaid to make sure a co-worker got the place emptied and locked. Even the co-worker that was horible could count on that. 

I would be ticked too!! Rant away!!


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

"I told all three to clock out and go home and reminded them that I didn't need them for security but simply a deterrent in numbers, also known as team work by looking out for one another."

...

Speaking manager to manager, what am I missing here?

I've had plenty of times when I've told male employees to go home because their shifts were over and they were just standing around mooning the females and slowing the close-out.


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## ejagno (Jan 2, 2008)

Harry Chickpea said:


> "I told all three to clock out and go home and reminded them that I didn't need them for security but simply a deterrent in numbers, also known as team work by looking out for one another."
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Apparently the whole point has escaped your understanding. I told them to go home because they were arguing over who was going to have to stay to play "body guard". It takes about 15 minutes to get the cash drawers counted and locked in the safe and this was just too much of their time I guess. We still had 5 customers in there who had consumed quite a bit of alcohol. Their shift ends when they clock out. Just because the restaurant closes at 10pm that doesn't mean everything is done. We've tried to encourage all of our employees to help one another so that we can all get out in a timely manner. Instead of helping they were sitting in the dining room arguing over their inflated ego's and who would have to be the "body guard" for us helpless little females. I don't need a body guard but I do strive to achieve a safe working environment for all of my employees and this requires safety in numbers when you are located next to an interstate in a somewhat secluded location set back from the main road. I want them to look out for one another from the time they clock in until we are all safely in our vehicles.


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## Dolly (Dec 13, 2003)

If they were arguing over who had to be a bodyguard, obviously none of them felt up to the task and were using clocking out as an excuse. Maybe these young 'men' aren't fit to be 'men' yet, and are still boys? 

Or if their egos are inflated to the point that one or all of them think they are in fact suited to be a bodyguard, they should be informed that it is not so, for the above mentioned reasons?


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## jacqueg (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm with Harry, I don't get it either. You're the manager, right? Why not tell them to quit bellyaching, unless they wanted to forget about working the more lucrative evening shift? If they're not chivalrous in their private lives, it's not your job to fix that. It is your job to take reasonable steps to provide safety, and if that includes requiring male presence at closing, that's your call as manager, and part of their job as employees.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

It's their parents fault for raising inconsiderate bums !Personally i'd fire them and hire real men with families to support who would be grateful for the time on the clock ! and understand it is the "right " thing to do to stay and wait for everyone to leave safely and at the same time . In my opinion these self entitled / self absorbed brats of today need a good swift kick in the keister !


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## SeanInVa (Oct 3, 2013)

While I do sympathize with ejagno on this - my late step father raised me to open doors, pull the chair, thank yous etc. In the modern world, with the big equality push, this is only a natural progression. We are being taught that women aren't the weaker sex. I think you and I both know that while women can certainly be very strong, men are typically bigger and stronger - on average.

I know in my 34 years, I have dated only a few women who were not offended by my always trying to get in front to open doors for them. My wife "thinks it's cute" when I do it, but insists I really don't need to. My ex wife actually got mad at me for doing it.

Maybe there are still areas that hold to the more chivalrous ways - it does seem to be dying out - and I blame that mostly on the "everybody is 100% equal" ideology. It's the same ideology that says nobody can lose at a game, everybody is a winner!

On the other hand, you are talking about young guys growing up in the always-connected era, where it seems to be all about me me me!

When I worked fast food I always stuck around when closing until *everyone* was done - usually helping them finish up their stuff, unless they explicitly told me they were ok and didn't need me to stay. Like you said, it's just a team thing. Some people have it, some people don't.
As others have said - say something to them. It could just be they have horrible parents


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## Batt (Sep 8, 2006)

When I worked the late shift (till 1:30) it was always the custom that 1 or more of the men would hang around (off the clock) until the women were in the car and the engine started (headlights on) before leaving. No questions, no discussions, just the way it was done back then.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

I think it's a result of how those young men(?) were brought up.

We live in a rursl community where the emphasis is helping one another. I see young people helping and protecting their neighbors without a second thought. 

On the other hand,I've seen young men slam a door on an older woman in a wheelchair. It's how they're raised!

And, to the OP, IMHO those young men might benefit from a talk with your DH who could explain what a true gentleman is.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

There work was finished? What, couldn't you find something else for them to do until closing? Count the napkins? Wipe down the walls?

When I worked, if we got done we had to ASK if we could leave, and the answer was not always yes. I do know that I hated being tired and bored at the same time as it made the minutes crawl by. 

I understand about leaving in groups: my employer was large enough to station guards at the parking lot at shift change but there is no way a small employer can do that. Keeping the employees busy until they can leave as a group is something under your control. Find those whiners some more work to keep them busy until close! At McDonalds the staff used to wash the same counter several times during slow times, which was pointless but that McDonald's SHONE!


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

I am afraid if I had heard employees gripping about the extra time, I would have 3 positions to fill this morning.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

SeanInVa said:


> While I do sympathize with ejagno on this - my late step father raised me to open doors, pull the chair, thank yous etc. In the modern world, with the big equality push, this is only a natural progression. We are being taught that women aren't the weaker sex. I think you and I both know that while women can certainly be very strong, men are typically bigger and stronger - on average.
> 
> I know in my 34 years, I have dated only a few women who were not offended by my always trying to get in front to open doors for them. My wife "thinks it's cute" when I do it, but insists I really don't need to. My ex wife actually got mad at me for doing it.
> 
> ...


 
I would like to add that there have been many enough years since men were --"Male chauvanisit PIGS" --That was the term SCREAMED at them for Opening doors by a generation of females that spawned and raised boys.---Boys that needed to "explore their femine side" --

Now, how many of those females who sprewed HATED SPEACH to men turned and woman up and raised thier boys with out a man in the house (look I know husbands die and marriages break up this is not focased at that type of mother).

My mom being older did not buy into a man holding a door or walking a woman to her car in the dark impact her getting a job that she wanted. She grew up where the few women (she was one) who drove and worked would have a man come around near the close of the business day and grather the few sets of keys of the LADIES and in the winter some men would shovel and some clear off ALL of the cars and other men started the cars. ---she called it class. I remember her words that one day these female with their noses out of joint for paying for a date, or asking the head of the house for permission to date a lady in the house, or being offered to carry heavy packages for a LADY Mom thought that the women who screamed such hatefull acid towards men should have be faced with a comment from the male "victims" of hate but she never could or did come up with anything.

She did raise by brother to reply "sorry, but I am a gentalman in training and I am honoring my mothers wishes --I hope your day goes better for you"

Look to the root of the problem.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

ejagno said:


> ...leaving me and another little tiny waitress alone with 5 intoxicated men sitting at a table.


This is the part I'm having troubles with... You don't seem to be a responsible tavern owner if you are over serving people... 

You put your employees in a bad position with over serving if you don't trust these men to be drunk and around your employees.. 

As far as the guys... guys will be guys... People don't raise their kids with the kind of morals we used to raise kids with... Now they just want their own time.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Please remember that many persons who have been cut off from drinking at a bar do wind up at little cafes. 

I was once with my mother at about 1am on a school night while in high school--I preformed in theatre so this was quite the norm to hit a cafe and to wait out the snow so the plows would have a chance at the roads

Three drunks in coffee shop came in one got up and kissed me and with out thinking I hauled off and slapped him hard ---it really shocked even me. So, remember drunks do not stay in the bar till sober--.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

kasilofhome said:


> Please remember that many persons who have been cut off from drinking at a bar do wind up at little cafes.
> 
> I was once with my mother at about 1am on a school night while in high school--I preformed in theatre so this was quite the norm to hit a cafe and to wait out the snow so the plows would have a chance at the roads
> 
> Three drunks in coffee shop came in one got up and kissed me and with out thinking I hauled off and slapped him hard ---it really shocked even me. So, remember drunks do not stay in the bar till sober--.


True.. I didn't think about them coming in drunk.. because if I owned my own place, I wouldn't seat a table full of drunk guys... You do have the right to refuse service...


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

simi-steading said:


> True.. I didn't think about them coming in drunk.. because if I owned my own place, I wouldn't seat a table full of drunk guys... You do have the right to refuse service...


What do you suggest they do? Go outside in publick? that would be illegal!


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

If a owner of a place felt unsafe for their employees by a table full of drunk guys, then they need to take responsibility of putting their employees in that situation.

What if those drunk guys got out of hand... you really expect three young guys to become bouncers?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

In real life --in many small cafes --esp the 24 hour ones I grew up with the hostess were ran the countre and when the door openned drunks for the most part were asked if they wanted a cab called (cells were not invented yet). The cops often stopped in and I think that is how the donut and cops melded. Hostess would call and cops would come if needed quickly---for that it was free coffee and a donut.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

In my eyes, real world says that if I feel I have to keep three young guys around because my drunk customers were a threat to my waitresses, then I'd have to rethink my business model.

I'm sorry, but in this case I feel the owner needs to take responsibility for putting their employees in what they feel is an unsafe environment.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

And my knowledge is dated back to the seventys---so things have change--these days there is more of a criminal mind it seems and violence is ramped. Back then it was simply drunks (dwi's needed a much higher score and the fines where a ticket and scolding).

I know that owners of business do need to change with the times and know what there risks are.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

kasilofhome said:


> I know that owners of business do need to change with the times and know what there risks are.


Its pretty simple really... anytime a business owner opens the doors to the public, they are inviting everyone to enter... this includes drunks (mostly harmless), crackheads, armed robbers, and murderers and all the other dregs of humanity, along with those they hope are law abiding citizens who just want to have a meal (or conduct whatever their business is) in peace. The risks are increasing daily because our society refuses to keep the jerks off the streets.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Sorry to disagree with some..But!

Chivalry hasn't died, it just went to the same place that Ladies went.

Chivalry is a code of conduct as is being a Lady

I hear women, from teen to 80's with the foulest mouths, same for the men.

So please don't expect a gentleman to open the door for foul mouthed (you finish it).

I've been cussed at for doing such things, won't happen again.. 

For my wife always, for others, possibly not. 

Chivalry is like common sense, most haven't a clue where to find it....


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## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

Keep yourself well armed.


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

Was the OP concerned about five drunks only or was she talking policy? The drunks are incidental me thinks. 
I remember the story of the lady who had to close the office, by herself. The parking lot was sort of secluded, with some trees hiding the view to the apt. buildings beyond. She always carried a gun in her purse and one evening, it was after dusk, she was indeed approached by an assaulter with a knife, who told her if she was nice to him he would not cut her much. She managed to be on the other side of her car, with her gun in her hand. She said she has no idea how it popped into her head, but she said, you should not bring a knife to a gun fight. The wanna be assaulter ran like the dickens. 

Today's young males,for a lot of them I really do not feel the term "men" is merited, 
have mostly been reared by females, with sometimes obvious bad results. They did not raise themselves. What kind of positive male influence do so many of the boys nowadays have? How do they view women? Let them kill their own snakes, change their own tire, make their own money and raise their own child. Human relations are messed up and this lack of concern for the safety of all is just a bit of evidence, imho
If you want to do them a favor, have your husband give them a talking to, maybe the penny will drop.


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## Suzyq2u (May 17, 2010)

If they were on the clock - they sure as heck should have been asking what else they could be doing if they were expected to stay to closing like everyone else.
I agree, might be time to look for other evening help.
Even if it is a few more women, like you said - safety in #'s. 
Our little local grocery offers a bagger even if you only have one sac in the evenings.


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> . The risks are increasing daily because our society refuses to keep the jerks off the streets.


How come we have so many jerks? Where should society put them? We already have more of our citizenry locked up in jails than any other country on earth. We are 5% of world population and furnish 25% of all prisoners. 
754 per 100 1000 in the US compared to 120 in China. How come America has so many jerks? 

Maybe jerks should receive a tattoo on their forehead for everyone to recognize , then businesses could put up signs: "No jerks allowed". 
Excuse me, I am getting to be crotchety in my old age. 
It still happens that a young man holds the door for me, I always make it a point to thank and compliment the young man. Sometimes I ask if he is home schooled, usually yes.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

I dont think chivalry is dead, even if it is with those young men.
I agree with Grumpy Old Man, hire someone that would appreciate the job!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Tabitha said:


> How come we have so many jerks? Where should society put them? We already have more of our citizenry locked up in jails than any other country on earth. We are 5% of world population and furnish 25% of all prisoners.
> 754 per 100 1000 in the US compared to 120 in China. How come America has so many jerks?
> 
> Maybe jerks should receive a tattoo on their forehead for everyone to recognize , then businesses could put up signs: "No jerks allowed".
> ...


Well now that you asked.... A lot of our "jerks" already have tattoos all over them... and piercings just in case you miss the tattoos. Another tell tail sign would be the pants lowered to mid thigh.

As to why we have so many jerks? Because there is no reason for them not to be jerks. Most never see the inside of a jail until their 20th conviction, and most who are eventually locked up are released years before serving their full sentence. 

Now as to why we have so many of them in our jails given the above. The above explains a lot... as to the sheer numbers of jerks available for lock up. Another major factor is the nature of the "crime" we lock our citizens up for. We have a tremendous amount of non violent offenders locked up. Folks whose only crime was being too friendly with various forms of plant life.
heres a quick look at the makeup of our federal prison inmates broken down by crimes. 
http://www.bop.gov/news/quick.jsp 

Drug Offenses:	100,026	(50.1 %)
Weapons, Explosives, Arson:	30,617	(15.3 %)
Immigration:	21,933	(11.0 %)
Robbery:	7,651	(3.8 %)
Burglary, Larceny, Property Offenses:	7,646	(3.8 %)
Extortion, Fraud, Bribery:	10,793	(5.4 %)
Homicide, Aggravated Assault, and Kidnapping Offenses:	5,581	(2.8 %)
Miscellaneous:	1,571	(0.8 %)
Sex Offenses:	11,728	(5.9 %)
Banking and Insurance, Counterfeit, Embezzlement:	809	(0.4 %)
Courts or Corrections:	642	(0.3 %)
Continuing Criminal Enterprise:	482	(0.2 %)
National Security:	80	(0.0 %)

As you can see, over half of those prisoners should probably be released simply because they committed crimes with no victims. Another nearly 3 percent convicted of homicide, kidnapping and aggravated assault should be executed. Same for that almost 6 percent who committed sex crimes. These are all vile evil people who do not need to be sucking up good oxygen. Then there is another 11 percent who obviously need to be deported rather than sitting in our prisons sucking up valuable resources. That comes to 70 percent of our federal prison population that simply do NOT need to be there.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

It's simple what is really wrong.. 

Erosion of morals.. 

People can't be polite to each other, they can't take responsibility for their own actions, and they don't bother to raise their kids with manners...


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

ejagno said:


> They really should have considered how this will impact them in the near future. I make the schedules and I write their checks. *You can be assured those three will no longer be working the closing shift.* The closing shift is when the largest tips are made. Evening tips are generally double and triple what the day shift makes. Gosh, I hope they didn't have big Christmas shopping plans. That paid 15 minutes of their time to help co-workers get to their cars safely will cost them dearly.


Do you schedule all of your staffs shifts on a rotational basis? If those three men will no longer be working closing shift do you already have other men presently employed there who will take the place of those three men? How will it impact or disrupt all of your other staff schedules (and their pay) if those three men no longer work closing shifts?

I've worked in restaurants from time to time. I know from experience that it only takes one disruptive and inconsiderate employee to breed bad feelings with all other staff and create chaos in the work environment and the next thing you know you have good staff quitting. Bad staff are not worth the trouble of keeping employed.

Speaking for myself I wouldn't change the schedules to avoid having those three uncooperative guys on that shift, just because I'm envisioning that by inconveniencing those three men it will also cause inconveniences and disruptions for yourself and all the other staff too. That's too much hassle, and why should the employers and the considerate staff be inconvenienced for the sake of paid employees who are being inconsiderate whiners who don't understand teamwork?

I'd give them notice, let them go and I'd hire new male employees to take their place. It may not be worthwhile trying to keep them on because if they are uncooperative about staying til the restaurant locks the doors and everyone's in their car, then they are probably complainers about other things too, including working day shifts with less tips. I'd replace them with new imployees who take the job with the full understanding and agreement about your employment rules, teamwork requirements, co-operativeness, awareness of safety for all employees, etc.


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## ejagno (Jan 2, 2008)

The men consuming alcohol were not the problem, they were customers. It's what's outside of these walls that I can't control. Thanks for the advice and support all. We have made some considerable changes.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

ejagno said:


> Apparently the whole point has escaped your understanding. I told them to go home because they were arguing over who was going to have to stay to play "body guard". It takes about 15 minutes to get the cash drawers counted and locked in the safe and this was just too much of their time I guess. We still had 5 customers in there who had consumed quite a bit of alcohol. Their shift ends when they clock out. Just because the restaurant closes at 10pm that doesn't mean everything is done. We've tried to encourage all of our employees to help one another so that we can all get out in a timely manner. Instead of helping they were sitting in the dining room arguing over their inflated ego's and who would have to be the "body guard" for us helpless little females. I don't need a body guard but I do strive to achieve a safe working environment for all of my employees and this requires safety in numbers when you are located next to an interstate in a somewhat secluded location set back from the main road. I want them to look out for one another from the time they clock in until we are all safely in our vehicles.


You are correct that your point was completely off my radar. I managed theatres - singles, multiplexes, drive-ins, you name it - for a number of years. Routine closing times started at around midnight, and on Friday and Saturday, 2:30 AM to 3 AM was common. Wage-an-hour laws meant that any employee on the premises was clocked in and working. (It would be illegal to work them without pay, and they were an insurance liability and distraction if they remained after working, so they were instructed to leave immediately after signing out, or risk being terminated.) As the pressures of payroll reductions increased in the 1970s, those rules got even tighter. The idea of an employee designated as a "bodyguard" (working or not) was never even a possibility. If the place needed extra security, we hired an armed security firm or rented a cop. We also made sure the place was a regular drive-by for any officer on duty.

Security is not a matter of "manners" in a professional establishment, but a real and dangerous job. The idea of some untrained young male wanting or not wanting to play the part of bodyguard is simply not something I would ever have tolerated. I have a hard time even getting my head around the idea of using a person like this.

Be warned. There is a Krystal's in Decatur that had a horrendous closing massacre a year or so ago. There were three employees on at closing, _all_ were killed. Security through having a number of employees at closing is no longer as safe as it used to be, and I would strongly urge a rethinking of your closing routines, with a cop in on the conversation.


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## BlueRose (Mar 7, 2013)

Semi steading I agree with you. Alot of people don't seem to have morals anymore.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Regardless of chivalry or society, the simple fact is that these boys (they are not men) don't want to do their job. I would fire all three of them. They are being paid for their time but appear to think that they're still too important for their job?? Guess what, lots of other guys need jobs these days. 

We always walked one another to our cars after closing up the grocery store at night, and made sure that everyone was safe, in their car, etc, before leaving. 

I am a feminist. My BF is a feminist, and he is sensitive, but he is also strong and protective of anyone who is weaker, whether due to size, gender, disability, temporary impairment due to inebriation, etc. Neither one of us would do what these kids do. When there are people who do not feel safe for whatever reason, you protect them and help them feel safe. It's what you do. Doesn't matter if it's a woman protecting children or a man protecting women, or a woman protecting disabled clients. When there is someone vulnerable, you stand up for them. 

I think these guys lack character and cannot be counted upon at all, even if they were present during some altercation. It's clear that they only think about themselves.


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

A couple of years ago, I was walking through the door at Walmart on a rainy day and slipped/fell. Before I could get my feet under me, I counted SIX men (and a couple of women) who actually stepped OVER me...one was very young (I'd say 18/19), two were soldiers, and the other two were probably my age or older (meaning 50+). SIX! Not one of them even looked back.

Yes, I truly believe that chivalry is, for the most part, dead...and plain old good manners and decency seem to be headed in the same direction.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I will have to say that the men in rural and suburban TX are much more helpful and polite than up here. Every time I visit my DD I am impressed. When we lived in TX I got used to it and took it for granted.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Seems the more rural the community the better the morals and politeness are . Act rude or disrespectful around here and you can bet a call will be made to the kids parents or worse their grand parents ! Families are sill involved in teaching respect and appreciation of their elders .


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## ejagno (Jan 2, 2008)

All 3 of these men in question are in their mid 30's/early 40's. I don't think I could call their Mom's. LOL 

I have only a couple of younger college males and I keep them on weekends during the day so they can spend their week focusing on their studies. DH and I are very strict on the school kids because if their grades drop below a 2.5 then they are off of the schedule until the grades are brought back up.

We employ 40+ people in our restaurant. We are in an area where work is very plentiful and finding employees who want to earn their living instead of simply getting a paycheck is a challenge on the best day. I do keep my disabled veterans and those with special needs during the day shifts.


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

I agree with everything the OP has said. I was raised in a different time and chivalry is a good thing that all men should practice. Sadly, young men these days don't seem to care nearly as much.

BTW - any restaurant in SW Louisiana has GOT to be good. I'd love to hear more about it in case we're ever down that way.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

My wife is always coming home and complaining about the men that will rush past her and push her and other women out of the way so they can get on the elevator at her office building first.. 

It's just common any more that so many people are more entitled than me and you., and there really is no economic class side to it... It's just how people have been raised any more.. "You're the best there is little Johnny..."

It's all about ME...


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

Well, it's the way those guys were raised and (not) taught. What can we expect. Women should not complain, I lived through the whole thing, from the first women's libbers to now. 
They are ruining the boys, most of the teachers and principals are females.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Having been a manager over these "types" of employees. The manager has a huge influence in inspiring a bonded team vibe. Also, these are your employees, work em till their hours are done.

You complain they did not want to bounce, yet you sent them home in a huff and left yourself and another "tiny" female employee alone to handle what may come? if I was that tiny female employee and witnessed this management I would look for other employment. 

Provide wise, competent, kind leadership and people will follow. Good employees are golden and they dont' just magically appear. or start out that way.


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## just_sawing (Jan 15, 2006)

This is a Fine place to make the Place better. If all were in it the same Fire all of them. If there is a Ring Leader fire him. If he has a Second fire him also. 
Do this with a firm no nonsense meeting with them getting red envelopes with a cautionary note that you would not be a reference.
This will stop a lot and remember you are not there to be there friend, you are the boss. When some one goes out of their way do the same for them in the opposite. If you reward the good stomp the bad you will have less problems.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

so let me get this straight?

You have 3 MALE employees you expect to stick around solely to provide "protection in numbers" based on their gender for the benefit of the female employees?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

That is the way I see it --the males for what every reason did not step up to the plate to explore their manhood.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

sorry, I have worked in a bar. Spent more than a couple nights getting "pressured" into sticking around for "security".


As I told the owner. you want security, hire a cop or an armed guard. My butt ain't there to protect your property.

As to the other employees, that's the owners issues not mine. You, the owner, are shirking your responsibilities. They were hired as what, bartender? server? cook? Where is "security guard" part of those duties? Either as a "male" gender deterrent or as a "mob" deterrent. Either way, you are putting them at a risk they didn't sign up for. And if it's a gender reason? You can bet really quick I would be on that for an EEO issue in a heartbeat.

If their work was done, cut them loose. I would have had the same resentment they did.


If you are concerned about a deposit? either put in a safe and deal with it in the morning or do as one other boss did. Instead of leaving AFTER closing hours, make the deposit BEFORE the place closes at night. She'd walk out of the place 1-2 hours ahead of time, take 5-10 minutes to dump it into the night depository and be back before anyone missed her. Hidden in plain sight.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

farmerj, not sure how much your post fits with the individual situation, but the overall thrust of it is spot on. Maybe if I could call on the boss to come over and take care of kids for free for a couple of hours, there would be a trade-off. 

Saudi Arabia has "chivalry" for those interested. No bars, no women driving.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

hippygirl said:


> A couple of years ago, I was walking through the door at Walmart on a rainy day and slipped/fell. Before I could get my feet under me, I counted SIX men (and a couple of women) who actually stepped OVER me...one was very young (I'd say 18/19), two were soldiers, and the other two were probably my age or older (meaning 50+). SIX! Not one of them even looked back.
> 
> Yes, I truly believe that chivalry is, for the most part, dead...and plain old good manners and decency seem to be headed in the same direction.


Sad, but be glad it was not the so called "black friday". If it had been, you may not be posting or breathing today.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

Harry Chickpea said:


> farmerj, not sure how much your post fits with the individual situation, but the overall thrust of it is spot on. Maybe if I could call on the boss to come over and take care of kids for free for a couple of hours, there would be a trade-off.
> 
> Saudi Arabia has "chivalry" for those interested. No bars, no women driving.



I'd say if fits quite nicely with the original post.

specifically where in the last paragraph she states that she will be taking it financially out of their paycheck by punishing them on a shift known for not having as good of tips available to them.


Why? because they are male and they didn't do what SHE expected them to do in a chivalrous manner which is not allowed by law?

OP screams gender discrimination to me. "_They resented the fact that they had to assume the role of "body guard" at closing_." That's discrimination based on gender right there.

I had a female soldier come to me one day and ask me to have a couple of my guys shovel the sidewalk for snow. Second day she asked me, I asked if it was because my guys (mechanics) are supposed to do it or what gives? She said it was because they were guys and she was female. Yeah, her boss (also female) was livid when I took her back up to it.


To add to it, the OP admits that she was ARMED and still had to have the guys stick around....Come on.....



farmerj said:


> sorry, I have worked in a bar. Spent more than a couple nights getting "pressured" into sticking around for "security".
> 
> 
> As I told the owner. you want security, hire a cop or an armed guard. My butt ain't there to protect your property.
> ...





ejagno said:


> I've always prided myself in the fact that I was born and reared in the most hospitable area of the world, Cajun country. An area where manners were always paramount, women were ladies and men were absolutely gentlemen. I grew up where men always protected and looked out for the females. Yet, today I'm saddened because the younger generations haven't a clue and the others that are old enough to know better just don't care about anyone but themselves.
> 
> We own a restaurant. Most nights we don't get out of there until 10pm at the earliest. *DH always makes sure that there are men scheduled to work until closing so the females aren't closing alone.* I've already had the pleasure of walking in on a robbery in progress once and another incident involving a street bum the second time. We've decided that from now on there is strength in numbers and most trouble makers step back when there is a man present instead of just small females that they can intimidate.
> 
> ...


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

I agree with the OP. It was well known by those 'men' that they were to stick around and well known for what reason. That reason isn't just some flippant 'men need to protect women' thing.

When I was a teen, a bartender I knew well at a local bar I frequented (the bar had under 21 dance nights on Sunday b/c the could not sell alcohol on Sundays) was murdered. She was closing the bar on her own. 25 years later and I still think about her and the last time I talked to her. If there had just been one person with her, if just one guy had shown some sort of concern about a woman being alone in such a situation, she would be alive today. 

Bless the OP for thinking so much about the safety of her employees.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Bottom line you have a job. You have a boss. 
Do what the boss says or they will find someone who will. 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Homesteading Today mobile app


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

FeralFemale said:


> I agree with the OP. It was well known by those 'men' that they were to stick around and well known for what reason. That reason isn't just some flippant 'men need to protect women' thing.
> 
> When I was a teen, a bartender I knew well at a local bar I frequented (the bar had under 21 dance nights on Sunday b/c the could not sell alcohol on Sundays) was murdered. She was closing the bar on her own. 25 years later and I still think about her and the last time I talked to her. If there had just been one person with her, if just one guy had shown some sort of concern about a woman being alone in such a situation, she would be alive today.
> 
> Bless the OP for thinking so much about the safety of her employees.



I am sorry for that persons loss. Any restaurant/convenience store I have worked for or my wife/ex-wife has worked for ALWAYS had a second person on-duty anytime after 8 PM. It's just how it is. Irregardless of gender.

to claim that chivalry is dead because of it is BS.


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

farmerj said:


> I am sorry for that persons loss. *Any restaurant/convenience store I have worked for or my wife/ex-wife has worked for ALWAYS had a second person on-duty anytime after 8 PM. It's just how it is. Irregardless of gender.*
> 
> to claim that chivalry is dead because of it is BS.


This just proves the OP's point. 

Maybe she went a little to far to bring chivalry into it, but she was totally correct in saying that those boys were not men, they did not care about others, they did not care about their duty, they did not care about their job, etc.


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

dup post


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

FeralFemale said:


> This just proves the OP's point.
> 
> Maybe she went a little to far to bring chivalry into it, but she was totally correct in saying that those boys were not men, they did not care about others, they did not care about their duty, they did not care about their job, etc.


She was there with a second employee. It is not in their job description to be bodyguards, security guards or anything like that. When their job as a waiter/server/bartender is done, they should be allowed to leave.

the three men were not needed for anything. Her own admission. So why is she retaliating against them by putting them on a different shift with a loss of wages?


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## The_rpp (Oct 19, 2013)

farmerj said:


> I am sorry for that persons loss. Any restaurant/convenience store I have worked for or my wife/ex-wife has worked for ALWAYS had a second person on-duty anytime after 8 PM. It's just how it is. Irregardless of gender.
> 
> to claim that chivalry is dead because of it is BS.


Proof that the OP is correct.

Men and women are equal, but not the same.

That this obvious fact is lost to many is the source of the the modern moral decline.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Three words.

Sowing, and Reaping.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

The_rpp said:


> Proof that the OP is correct.
> 
> Men and women are equal, but not the same.
> 
> That this obvious fact is lost to many is the source of the the modern moral decline.



I am not seeing where the OP is correct to be able to retaliate against the employees by cutting their wages.

She was there with another employee. They were complete in their job tasks and being expected to remain there past the completion of those duties. Why? Because they were men?

we have no clue how those employees treat women or other people for that matter outside of her described work situation.

So why the discord between the 3 of them who felt imposed of for gender reasons to do something they weren't comfortable in on a job task outside of their normal job duties.

She hasn't even said what specifically they are employed to do. Just that they were all complete with those tasks and this was unrelated to it.


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## Snowfan (Nov 6, 2011)

I'll admit I'm a bit on the slow side so bear with me, please.
Is this an issue of employment law? Expectations of a _female_ manager or a manager? Is this an an attempt to define the word "man"? The first two, I'll admit to being illiterate. But consider this. We have a serious lack of involved, concerned fathers. There is no shortage of males who think it's cool to get a girl/woman pregnant and then move on to the next girl/woman and let mom raise their children with the help of welfare, food stamps, housing, medical care and food shelves. There is no training for boys to become men. There is no training for girls to become women. This task, has, unfortunately, become the job of movies, TV and video games. We ALL learn by example. Today, my son and my son-in-law open doors for not just women of any age, but also for anyone near the door. They remove their hats in the presence of a lady. Everyone is "sir" or "ma'am" They do this because they learned by seeing me do it. This doesn't make me a great dad or even a good dad. My dad was good. My Heavenly Father is great. How good a dad I am now or was will be determined by my grand-sons and their sons.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

> She was there with another employee. They were complete in their job tasks and being expected to remain there past the completion of those duties. Why? Because they were men?


No.
Because it is in the best interest of all involved to CARE about their fellow employees.

Because they were being paid to sit and chat instead of finding something to do.

Because it would be the decent thing to do to make sure your coworker got to their car safely.

It is called simple human decency, or perhaps common courtesy, which like common sense is no longer so common.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Any "REAL" man would wait for everyone to leave and be safe going home .PERIOD ! I'm sorry if you "didn't sign up for that job" ,You should be ashamed of anyone who thinks different .How would you feel if you as the last man there left early and they were robbed or worse ? Grow up act like men!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Grumpy old man said:


> Any "REAL" man would wait for everyone to leave and be safe going home .PERIOD ! I'm sorry if you "didn't sign up for that job" ,You should be ashamed of anyone who thinks different .How would you feel if you as the last man there left early and they were robbed or worse ? Grow up act like men!


I tend to agree with this... why wouldnt any man want to stick around until their coworkers were safely on their way home at closing time? Its not like they were being asked to do anything... or put themselves at any additional risk... the idea of having several people in the place is to deter a robbery. Their very presence will most often prevent some thug from attempting to rob the place. Put yourself in the thugs place for a moment.... there is one guy closing the bar across the street... and 6 people in this restaurant..... who you gonna rob?


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## The_rpp (Oct 19, 2013)

farmerj said:


> I am not seeing where the OP is correct to be able to retaliate against the employees by cutting their wages.
> 
> She was there with another employee. They were complete in their job tasks and being expected to remain there past the completion of those duties. Why? Because they were men?
> 
> ...


And thank you for proving my point as well.

Yes, this generation has truly lost its way.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

> She hasn't even said what specifically they are employed to do. Just that they were all complete with those tasks and this was unrelated to it.


They are employed to do what the boss tells them to until the boss tells them to go home. 

One of the biggest problems in society today is the prevailing attitude of I will do only this much and nothing else and I will only do this much as long as i reap a benefit from it. 

A simple response as to why they need to stay behind? Because I sign your check and I said so. They should not expect nor are they (or we) entitled to a more in-depth response.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Why did she leave it up to the 3 to decide who stays? To me this is a failure to manage.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

I have managed a LOT of places. I've spent time at corporate offices and most of my time as a district manager - the person who gets to hire and fire managers, as well as guide them enough to keep their employees, themselves and myself out of trouble.

farmerj has it totally correct. This isn't about "chivalry" in any way, shape, or form. The bottom line is that an EMPLOYER wants to USE employees *OFF THE CLOCK* and wants to punish them for not doing her bidding. That changes the entire color of the situation.

If the employer was General Electric and it pulled the same stunt, a union would be pounding on management's door by the next day. The _disrespect_ here is one of management looking for a freebee.

There is a reason that labor laws are what they are. It IS possible for an employer to work an employee at whatever hours for a fixed rate. That is the position of a salaried manager. There is a certain amount of security in a fixed paycheck and the trade off is reasonable in most cases. An hourly employee works at the good will of management. Employees who perform better generally get either more hours or preferred hours. HOWEVER... once the time clock has the time card punched out, that is the end of control over that employee until the next sign-in. PERIOD.

I've been watching the Sloppy Joe's live webcams off and on the past couple of weeks, and watched the closing-up routine a couple times. The waitstaff is gone in a flash, the bartenders do some preliminary cleaning, a night manager then is doing the major cleaning/inventory and at least two bouncers remain on shift while this is going on. You can watch it yourself if you want. The only "hanging around" I saw was the final night of one band, where they were chilling with their promoter and being lackadaisical about packing up instruments. 

From a pragmatic point of view - say that one of the off-shift "bodyguards" gets shot and killed. I can flat out guarantee that the relatives of that bodyguard would OWN the bar within a year. There are culpable negligence, violation of labor laws, coercion, and a few other "minor" legal transgressions that would make any jury livid.

You cannot force a "voluntary" work without pay. In the OP, that has been admitted to as a policy of the place of employment. The employees already have a valid cause for a suit claiming back pay. Whining about them not wanting to do it is just over-the-top.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

See this is what comes from not reading. 
The 3 guys were not off the clock. She clocked them out then sent them hone because they were whinung about wanting to leave. 

What bothers her is their lack of concern for the others while being paid to stay until closed.
Work until close means you stay until the place is closed and locked with no employees or customers left inside. 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Homesteading Today mobile app


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

I re-read. It does appear that they were on the clock at the time of the bickering. I stand corrected on that. It still has nothing to do with chivalry, and the idea of safety in numbers is still one of questionable value.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

I find the OP amusing because the last thing on earth I need is male protection. If I was in my own place with a gun I would have sent those boys home with no worries whatsoever. Now I have no problem with chivalry and my sons were raised to open doors and look out for women and they walk girls they work with to their cars at night and such. But hopefully those girls were raised not to need a man to take care of them. Because there won't always be one around.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Ejagno, it is illegal to expect your employees to stay if they are off the clock. A hospital that I worked for in Iowa got in trouble with the feds for doing that.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Who cares if their on the clock or not it's just whats right and nothing else ,Raise your son's to be men not clock watchers ! I'm so sick of weak young men I could puke !


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

And I am sick of a country where employers don't pay employees for their work or hold any respect for them.


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## unregistered65598 (Oct 4, 2010)

Grumpy old man said:


> Who cares if their on the clock or not it's just whats right and nothing else ,Raise your son's to be men not clock watchers ! I'm so sick of weak young men I could puke !


This should be post of the day!


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Harry Chickpea said:


> And I am sick of a country where employers don't pay employees for their work or hold any respect for them.


Just for 'informational' purpose.

Her "servers" make 2.13 an hour.
They never see A PENNY of that 2.13 an hour on a pay check because when they claim their charge / cash tips, that 2.13 an hour is COMPLETELY eliminated by taxes.

Servers make ALL of their money in tips.
AND if servers encounter those type of people who 'believe their employers should pay them bla bla bla (IE total cheap butts).......then they make chump change for a wage.

SO the employer pays what the LAW says to pay.
If the cheapskate at the table is getting service, but refuses to tip....
Then it is the CHEAPSKATE that is 'taking advantage of the server' NOT the employers........

JLYK


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Harry Chickpea said:


> And I am sick of a country where employers don't pay employees for their work or hold any respect for them.


You should be in good shape right here in the USA then. Most employers do pay their help, and do give their employees all the respect they deserve. Respect, for what its worth, is not a freebie, it needs to be earned. These boys mentioned in the op? I am sorry, but they havent earned much respect in my opinion.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Harry Chickpea said:


> HOWEVER... once the time clock has the time card punched out, that is the end of control over that employee until the next sign-in. PERIOD.


Cool! No more drug tests! :rock:


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

If an hourly employee is expected to go for a drug test on their own time, they CAN file a claim for the time. In at at-will state, the employer will just get rid of the employee (no "cause" is required), but it doesn't make it any less the law.

I'm amused and bemused at the whole tone of the thread. You might not like what I am reporting, but arguing against it is like it would be if I started arguing with some college math prof. about the definition of pi. If you don't care for the guys mentioned, based on the report, fine. However, gender doesn't change the laws.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Harry Chickpea said:


> If an hourly employee is expected to go for a drug test on their own time, they CAN file a claim for the time.


I think you missed my point... if ANY employee is asked to have a drug test, on their own time, company time or any other time... the company is obviously exercising "control" over that employee during their time "off the clock". If the employer wants their employees to not show up stoned for work... fine... but what they do after punching off the clock on saturday night should be their own business.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

It's kinda true, chivalry is less these days. Last summer on my way from the beach, a tire blew out. There I was, struggling to losses the nuts in just shorts and a bikini top and the guys in the construction zone just say there watching, none offered to help. Sheesh. 


Sent from my iPhone using Homesteading Today


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Just for 'informational' purpose.
> 
> Her "servers" make 2.13 an hour.
> They never see A PENNY of that 2.13 an hour on a pay check because when they claim their charge / cash tips, that 2.13 an hour is COMPLETELY eliminated by taxes.
> ...


I am sorry but she can choose to pay her servers whatever she likes! The government sets a minimum wage not a maximum. I always tip 20% because I know the whole system is rigged for servers but it is not my responsibility to see that her employees make a decent wage it is hers!


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I think you missed my point... if ANY employee is asked to have a drug test, on their own time, company time or any other time... the company is obviously exercising "control" over that employee during their time "off the clock". If the employer wants their employees to not show up stoned for work... fine... but what they do after punching off the clock on saturday night should be their own business.


No, I got your point. I'm just sayin' an employee could fight that drug test being "off the clock" and win if the time brought their wages to sub-minimum wage. Pyrrhic victory and all that.

Drug tests are a bit of a sore point, even though I recognize their importance. I've seen business owners walking around conventions stoned, these same owners who require drug tests of their employees. Kinda like the polygraph tests I used to have to take when I knew the owner was clipping.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

I know the whole system is rigged for servers but it is not my responsibility to see that her employees make a decent wage it is hers! 



I know the whole system is rigged for but it is not my responsibility to see that everyone has FREE MEDICAL CARE< HOUSING< it is Responcable -taxpayers and the Wealthy . 

Switch a few words and what does it show.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Harry Chickpea said:


> No, I got your point. I'm just sayin' an employee could fight that drug test being "off the clock" and win if the time brought their wages to sub-minimum wage. Pyrrhic victory and all that.
> 
> Drug tests are a bit of a sore point, *even though I recognize their importance.* I've seen business owners walking around conventions stoned, these same owners who require drug tests of their employees. Kinda like the polygraph tests I used to have to take when I knew the owner was clipping.


Ok, enlighten me.... what importance can drug testing possibly have? An employee is either capable of doing their job or they arent, and that can only be determined by thier performance while on the job. What they did over the weekend has nothing to do with his/her competency level when he/she clocks in monday morning.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

kasilofhome said:


> I know the whole system is rigged for servers but it is not my responsibility to see that her employees make a decent wage it is hers!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You left out something there: I do still pay a 20% tip to all of her servers because I know they don't make enough. Restaurant owners should and could do the right thing but they don't so I pick up the slack. I don't punish the workers for something they have no control over. Kind of like I am fine kicking in a bit extra to cover those who can't afford health insurance. The system stinks but I am not going to punish the people in need.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, enlighten me.... what importance can drug testing possibly have? An employee is either capable of doing their job or they arent, and that can only be determined by thier performance while on the job. What they did over the weekend has nothing to do with his/her competency level when he/she clocks in monday morning.


Fair question. In a way, you are correct, but it is the collateral damage that affects employers. I remember one manager that was well on her way to becoming a superstar manager - working her way through the ranks and then through bigger and more important locations. She developed a habit for cocaine and money quickly started coming up missing from receipts. I had to let go at least a half-dozen assistant managers and supervisors where, again, the tills were coming up short due to the cost of their habits. Staged robberies (I know for a fact of at least four that happened in one of the companies I worked for) orchestrated by employees or low-level managers do happen.

The other collateral damage is that word gets around, and soon the sober staff leave to avoid getting sullied and are replaced by the friends and cronies of the problem employee. Cleaning out the trash and bringing back the good employees in such a situation can be almost impossible once that starts to take hold. It can actually make more sense to shutter a location like that and start fresh - that is the amount of money involved in the loss of good staff and public trust.

I did have a couple of alcoholic managers. Oddly, they were scrupulous, almost immaculate in their dealings and demeanor and were not a problem.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

workers always have a choice. Buying into the helplessness of the individual allows for governmental growth. Now, I know waitstaff that make killer bucks--once they learned and applied themself and like any field moved on and to better establishment with sound backing from the entry level business. 

20 percent tip-- well-- that is you choice (unless going in a large group) no one forces you or anyone to have a meal cooked and severed and clean up and shopped and prepped for you. Choices.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Harry Chickpea said:


> Fair question. In a way, you are correct, but it is the collateral damage that affects employers. I remember one manager that was well on her way to becoming a superstar manager - working her way through the ranks and then through bigger and more important locations. She developed a habit for cocaine and *money quickly started coming up missing from receipts.* I had to let go at least a half-dozen assistant managers and supervisors where, again, the tills were coming up short due to the cost of their habits. Staged robberies (I know for a fact of at least four that happened in one of the companies I worked for) orchestrated by employees or low-level managers do happen.
> 
> The other collateral damage is that word gets around, and soon the sober staff leave to avoid getting sullied and are replaced by the friends and cronies of the problem employee. Cleaning out the trash and bringing back the good employees in such a situation can be almost impossible once that starts to take hold. It can actually make more sense to shutter a location like that and start fresh - that is the amount of money involved in the loss of good staff and public trust.
> 
> I did have a couple of alcoholic managers. Oddly, they were scrupulous, almost immaculate in their dealings and demeanor and were not a problem.


I would think that when the money started coming up missing would be the appropriate time (and reason) for firing an employee. Theft is a criminal offense, we have courts and jails for such nonsense. I would think theft should really constitute grounds for automatic dismissal... as in heres yer hat, get out of my store.... but thanks to labor unions and labor laws, such is not necessarily the case. That however is irrelevant to what we were discussing. What an employee does on their own time.... really is NO business of the boss. If they steal from the boss during working hours... of course thats his or her business.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I would think that when the money started coming up missing would be the appropriate time (and reason) for firing an employee. Theft is a criminal offense, we have courts and jails for such nonsense. I would think theft should really constitute grounds for automatic dismissal... as in heres yer hat, get out of my store.... but thanks to labor unions and labor laws, such is not necessarily the case. That however is irrelevant to what we were discussing. What an employee does on their own time.... really is NO business of the boss. If they steal from the boss during working hours... of course thats his or her business.


Personally, I agree with you. However, there are a LOT of employers that attempt to control an employee's life. The old one used to be "You WILL donate to the United Way." It wasn't an option. Where there is a high degree of public visibility, many jobs have codes (written or unwritten) as to what the employee can do in off time. People usually just do their thing out of town.

A joke around here is that a local sex video store has two locations - one in Huntsville to serve the people from Decatur, and one in Decatur to serve the people from Huntsville.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Harry Chickpea said:


> Personally, I agree with you. However, there are a LOT of employers that attempt to control an employee's life. The old one used to be "You WILL donate to the United Way." It wasn't an option. Where there is a high degree of public visibility, *many jobs have codes (written or unwritten) as to what the employee can do in off time.* People usually just do their thing out of town.
> 
> A joke around here is that a local sex video store has two locations - one in Huntsville to serve the people from Decatur, and one in Decatur to serve the people from Huntsville.


Such as having a couple guys hang around until the ladies have closed up shop and gotten in their own cars... safely heading home?


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

kasilofhome said:


> workers always have a choice. Buying into the helplessness of the individual allows for governmental growth. Now, I know waitstaff that make killer bucks--once they learned and applied themself and like any field moved on and to better establishment with sound backing from the entry level business.
> 
> 20 percent tip-- well-- that is you choice (unless going in a large group) no one forces you or anyone to have a meal cooked and severed and clean up and shopped and prepped for you. Choices.


I haven't the faintest idea what you mean by this. Yes I do choose to go out to eat sometimes and when I do I go expecting to leave a nice tip. Not sure what the problem is with that?

As for jobs if there were top level service industry jobs for everyone then everyone would be in one. There are not.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Lol it's true. They try to do that here where I work... But that's ok. It's motivated me to go back and further some education so I can say good bye to this place... Heck no I'd never work for a catholic run organization again. I take issue with them holding mandatory meetings to tell us how to vote.


Harry Chickpea said:


> Personally, I agree with you. However, there are a LOT of employers that attempt to control an employee's life. The old one used to be "You WILL donate to the United Way." It wasn't an option. Where there is a high degree of public visibility, many jobs have codes (written or unwritten) as to what the employee can do in off time. People usually just do their thing out of town.
> 
> A joke around here is that a local sex video store has two locations - one in Huntsville to serve the people from Decatur, and one in Decatur to serve the people from Huntsville.






Sent from my iPhone using Homesteading Today


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

There is a limited number of top paying jobs---and there is a limited number of persons willing to gain the skills to hold those jobs and work ethic to maintain those jobs.

I guess when I write about freedom to choose it is not in everyones voc. Sorry if you did not understand that waitstaff ---is not a forced occupation. It is a choice. I hope that the educational system and interaction with society would have provided persons with the knowledge of the pros and cons of selecting to work in the waitstaff field.

If a person accepted the job with out a clue as to the pay structure---it is a darn shame that they were clueless. It is also lucky for the rest of us that the damage was not life threatening.

I guess I learned that I had to start life at square one and if I wanted to advance I would have to apply effort.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

kasilofhome said:


> There is a limited number of top paying jobs---and there is a limited number of persons willing to gain the skills to hold those jobs and work ethic to maintain those jobs.
> 
> I guess when I write about freedom to choose it is not in everyones voc. Sorry if you did not understand that waitstaff ---is not a forced occupation. It is a choice. I hope that the educational system and interaction with society would have provided persons with the knowledge of the pros and cons of selecting to work in the waitstaff field.
> 
> ...


Obviously it is not a forced occupation but it may very well be the only one available. People who need to put food on the table and a roof over their heads and clothes on their children's backs will take whatever job they can. They can work as hard as they like but again as you said yourself there are only a limited amount of high end food service jobs and so not matter how hard a person works they may still be stuck in a low end one.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Then MOVE--many people move to improve thier lot in life--Lord knows the founders did and the wagon train what what that about--or the gold rush --the migration from the farms to the city--It has been going on as a norm for person wanting more.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

kasilofhome said:


> Then MOVE--many people move to improve thier lot in life--Lord knows the founders did and the wagon train what what that about--or the gold rush --the migration from the farms to the city--It has been going on as a norm for person wanting more.


I've found that I have "more" by moving from a beachfront house to the country and living on this farm .:nana:


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Well now that you asked.... A lot of our "jerks" already have tattoos all over them... and piercings just in case you miss the tattoos. Another tell tail sign would be the pants lowered to mid thigh.


I don't usually take exception to any of your postings, but this statement is, I believe, a first.
I happen to have three sons, all in their early 20's, and all three are pierced and tattooed. My 22 yo has full sleeves, and his entire back done.
I will tell you now, that every single one of them knows how to properly behave, none have ever seen the inside of a jail, and they also hold doors for strangers, men and women. Say yes sir, or ma'am, and would never allow a female of any age to be alone at night in a possibly shady situation.
It is not how they look, it is how they are raised. Btw, they don't do the saggy pants thing, but that's only because dh and I never allowed it.
My boys may look like someone you would cross the street to avoid, but I promise if you do, you would be missing out on meeting some pretty neat kids.
Good kids do exsist, I promise. Just sometimes, I suppose, you have to be willing to actually take the time to look for them. Regardless of how they look, on the outside


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

hercsmama said:


> I don't usually take exception to any of your postings, but this statement is, I believe, a first.
> I happen to have three sons, all in their early 20's, and all three are pierced and tattooed. My 22 yo has full sleeves, and his entire back done.
> I will tell you now, that every single one of them knows how to properly behave, none have ever seen the inside of a jail, and they also hold doors for strangers, men and women. Say yes sir, or ma'am, and would never allow a female of any age to be alone at night in a possibly shady situation.
> It is not how they look, it is how they are raised. Btw, they don't do the saggy pants thing, but that's only because dh and I never allowed it.
> ...


I never intended to mean that ALL kids with tats and piercings are thugs thieves and bandits. There are always those exceptions. (our own boy has managed to cover himself with such "warnings", much against my advice) But I think its a pretty fair statement that a lot of our thugs thieves and bandits do leave us some pretty fair signs as to their basic nature. And yes, I might miss out on a few good kids by not hiring them because of their appearance, but thats a chance I am willing to take when I have the choice between them and another applicant who understands that appearances do count to a great many people.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Well....... I have to disagree on that one . You see I'm 6'4" and 270 lbs with a full beard and more than a few tats . I have never been arrested and the business I started and ran for 30 + years dealt with the 1% earners in America's Major corporations /judges /congressmen /senators/governors and never had anyone consider not to hire my company to service their needs . We had a stellar reputation even tho many of my employees looked like a who's who of death row ! To pass judgement on others based solely on their looks is profiling and you may be surprised just who they are or what they do without having the chance to meet them ! Besides the fact that tattoos done by some artists are extremely expensive ! P.S. Every politician I ever met was a crook and Judges Always asked for the "cash" no tax discount .And lawyers were always the last to pay their bills .


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

kasilofhome said:


> Then MOVE--many people move to improve thier lot in life--Lord knows the founders did and the wagon train what what that about--or the gold rush --the migration from the farms to the city--It has been going on as a norm for person wanting more.


Move where? You are aware of the current unemployment situation in this country?


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> Move where? You are aware of the current unemployment situation in this country?


There are available jobs in just about every city and suburb ,it may not be your "forever" job but there are jobs if you really want to work . I'd be willing to bet I could even find a job in Detroit in less than 2 days having never been there .


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

What job do you want AND can do BETTER than anyone else or What Job are you skill and willing to work hard. Note having a good attude towards work and your employor will aid in long term employment but not everyone has that skill.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

in this area some people drive 40 miles one way to work at home depot , Their just to proud to not work .


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

My mom drove two hours to a job in western new york. She was in her 80's and worked because she could and there were jobs open and unfilled in a college community as such for 18 months she covered those shifts in a nursing home --due to weather she was allow to use a bed put in the basement should there be a question if the roads would be open or driveable ---to insure that the elderly (many younger than mom) would be cared for. This worked well as staff could not leave prior to a replacemnt so the one shift stayed down stairs if the roads were bad or about to and one shift worked. 

Some look for work ---Some look for reason not to work. Some create some complain.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Remember emplorer want what they pay for--want to watch a clock --do it at home.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

There are a lot of jobs here. We need welders, the oil fields are hiring, many places like our schools are hiring to replace teachers and others who head to the oil fields for higher pay. 

There are a lot of jobs in this area going begging. Of course this is a right to work state. Mostly non union too which means you don't do your job, you don't have one.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Grumpy old man said:


> There are available jobs in just about every city and suburb ,it may not be your "forever" job but there are jobs if you really want to work . I'd be willing to bet I could even find a job in Detroit in less than 2 days having never been there .


So explain to me how someone who is out of work pays for a move across the country to a new city where they may or may not be able to find a low end job? How do they come up with the money to move, put down payments on a place to live, deposits on utilities etc.? And all of this to go to a new place where they have no friends or family to fall back on if need be?


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

MJsLady said:


> There are a lot of jobs here. We need welders, the oil fields are hiring, many places like our schools are hiring to replace teachers and others who head to the oil fields for higher pay.
> 
> There are a lot of jobs in this area going begging. Of course this is a right to work state. Mostly non union too which means you don't do your job, you don't have one.


Personally I would rather starve than live in Texas. But you are talking about jobs that either require skills or degrees. How we got here from a thread about food service I do not know.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

Patchouli said:


> Personally I would rather starve than live in Texas. But you are talking about jobs that either require skills or degrees. How we got here from a thread about food service I do not know.


I think that you should follow your instincts when it comes to moving to Texas.:hysterical:


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

No I said there are a lot of jobs going begging. Including food service, retail and simple office jobs. 
I don't feel for a person who woukd rather starve than go where the jobs are.

We did it and would again if needed. Neither of us have degrees either. 


Sent from my GT-I9300 using Homesteading Today mobile app


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> Personally I would rather starve than live in Texas. But you are talking about jobs that either require skills or degrees. How we got here from a thread about food service I do not know.


 
That is a personal choice and you are free to make it.

How to move with little or no money.

one. find a location for which has severals job that you are able to work at. Have you resume and reference together with any other papers which would show that you are a hard worker and send them out to those job sites.

two. Contact family (if you have any willing and able to LEND --as in you will pay them back)
Try. Friends --they should know if they trust you and you should know if they can afford to LOAN you money

Even churches have aided in travel to seek a job ( our little church did this when a person Needed to relocate to avoid a beating and the lady could and would have a job)


Now, houseing--contact a newpaper and place and ad to rent ---or even cheaper craiglist--

contact a church in advance and explain that you need a hand BUT ARE WILLING TO DO WORK --even if a church says no to the work being will and offering shows what you are made of.

Look I aid and help 17 and 18 year olds and they seem to have a better grasps of helping themself==I learn new Ideas as we bounce of each other on how to move out and on their own.

Look at life as a challenge-- Dumpter diving was not fun but it met a need and did not take from someone something they wanted or needed.

Giving up and complaining that life is not easy is the first step to failing.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> Move where? You are aware of the current unemployment situation in this country?


So move to where the jobs went... China.. Mexico


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> So explain to me how someone who is out of work pays for a move across the country to a new city where they may or may not be able to find a low end job? How do they come up with the money to move, put down payments on a place to live, deposits on utilities etc.? And all of this to go to a new place where they have no friends or family to fall back on if need be?


I have done this several times over the years... its pretty simple. Sell off all your junk... and trust me, thats all your "stuff" really is, just ask anyone who is looking to buy it.  Take the money, convert to large bills at the bank, stuff them in your socks, boots or other places your average bandit doesnt look, keep out a few small bills in your wallet to eat on during your trip. (most bandits will settle for whatever cash is in your wallet too) Then hang a thumb in the air in the general direction you want to go. (putting one foot in front of the other also helps) Continue in that direction until you arrive at your destination. When you get there look for work, dont waste your time looking for a job, look for work... there is plenty around for those willing and able to do it. Once you have established yourself as a reputable (whatever it is that you do) you will soon be able to set your own rates and make far more than you ever would had you gotten a job... making the boss money. To my knowledge there is no deposits or other fees required to sleep under public bridges.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Grumpy old man said:


> Well....... I have to disagree on that one . You see I'm 6'4" and 270 lbs with a full beard and more than a few tats . I have never been arrested and the business I started and ran for 30 + years dealt with the 1% earners in America's Major corporations /judges /congressmen /senators/governors and never had anyone consider not to hire my company to service their needs . We had a stellar reputation even tho many of my employees looked like a who's who of death row ! To pass judgement on others based solely on their looks is profiling and you may be surprised just who they are or what they do without having the chance to meet them ! Besides the fact that tattoos done by some artists are extremely expensive ! P.S. Every politician I ever met was a crook and Judges Always asked for the "cash" no tax discount .And lawyers were always the last to pay their bills .


Lemme ask you this... are you under 30, with no marketable skills looking for a job? It sounds to me like you are a bit older, self employed, and able to find your way out of a phone booth even if it only had one door.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Patchouli said:


> So explain to me how someone who is out of work pays for a move across the country to a new city where they may or may not be able to find a low end job? How do they come up with the money to move, put down payments on a place to live, deposits on utilities etc.? And all of this to go to a new place where they have no friends or family to fall back on if need be?


Let me tell you a story, I was barely 18, had a two year old daughter, and lived in So Cal. I decided that I would be better off anywhere else than with her father, so I sold off everything of mine I could, packed her and her stuff into my old Camaro, took the whopping 1500.00 I had, and drove away. I ended up in Denver, and managed to find an apartment the day we got there. By stopping at every one I saw that looked semi decent. Had my utilities turned on by the next day, and found a job within the week. Actually, I found two.
I worked both jobs for the entire three years we lived there. My parents were both appalled and proud of me.
If a stupid high school drop out, single parent, 18yo kid can do it, why can't you?
BTW, I also managed to get my GED, and my nursing degree (LVN) during that time.
I knew no one there, have no idea why I picked Denver. Just sounded good at the time.:cowboy:


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Lemme ask you this... are you under 30, with no marketable skills looking for a job? It sounds to me like you are a bit older, self employed, and able to find your way out of a phone booth even if it only had one door.


Over 50 something , advanced degree ,I was self employed for 30 years and sold my self started /funded business in 2005 when money was still good and retired at 48, I was always a little claustrophobic in those phone booths but at least you could have a personal conversation . My point is to anyone actually looking for work that it is out there you just have t go find it and not drop off a resume at the door .

The way to move to another town for work 

Sell anything you have of value down to a small back pack .Take your cash and get a bus ticket to said town , find a small local diner and offer to clean or wash dishes for food/low pay find local shelter and now you have a job food and a temp place to stay after a few weeks find a room for rent all the while looking for a better job . if you really want to make it better you can


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I have done this several times over the years... its pretty simple. Sell off all your junk... and trust me, thats all your "stuff" really is, just ask anyone who is looking to buy it.  Take the money, convert to large bills at the bank, stuff them in your socks, boots or other places your average bandit doesnt look, keep out a few small bills in your wallet to eat on during your trip. (most bandits will settle for whatever cash is in your wallet too) Then hang a thumb in the air in the general direction you want to go. (putting one foot in front of the other also helps) Continue in that direction until you arrive at your destination. When you get there look for work, dont waste your time looking for a job, look for work... there is plenty around for those willing and able to do it. Once you have established yourself as a reputable (whatever it is that you do) you will soon be able to set your own rates and make far more than you ever would had you gotten a job... making the boss money. To my knowledge there is no deposits or other fees required to sleep under public bridges.


I really hope this is a joke. Why don't you just advise people to take up prostitution because that's about all the "work" someone showing up in a new city will find if they got there by hitching and are living under a bridge.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

hercsmama said:


> Let me tell you a story, I was barely 18, had a two year old daughter, and lived in So Cal. I decided that I would be better off anywhere else than with her father, so I sold off everything of mine I could, packed her and her stuff into my old Camaro, took the whopping 1500.00 I had, and drove away. I ended up in Denver, and managed to find an apartment the day we got there. By stopping at every one I saw that looked semi decent. Had my utilities turned on by the next day, and found a job within the week. Actually, I found two.
> I worked both jobs for the entire three years we lived there. My parents were both appalled and proud of me.
> If a stupid high school drop out, single parent, 18yo kid can do it, why can't you?
> BTW, I also managed to get my GED, and my nursing degree (LVN) during that time.
> I knew no one there, have no idea why I picked Denver. Just sounded good at the time.:cowboy:


Again at the time you did that prices were probably better and jobs were probably more easily available. I am impressed that you were able to find a reliable babysitter in a new town in a week not knowing anyone.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> I really hope this is a joke. Why don't you just advise people to take up prostitution because that's about all the "work" someone showing up in a new city will find if they got there by hitching and are living under a bridge.


Not a joke. Have done it myself several times. So far In my 62 years I have never asked any woman to pay me for the services you suggest! :hysterical:

I am just naturally generous that way


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Well--- for those feeling that a woman can do everything that a man can and that a man can do everything that a woman can --why is hitch hiking an issue for transportation. As such it should not be inflamitory or insulting to suggest hitch hiking. It is an option that is for free travel.

Now, sleeping under a bridge is limit to areas where there are bridges. 

I have known a few really brave soles--Vince---released from a mental hospital (never learned the long story) but he made his way to Juneau from Fairbanks--He got SSI and he used his money got a membership at gym.----having showers was important for his plan thus the gym and a place to spend time--he had a tent and camping gear that he aquired better stuff over time--I do know he got there in late summer.

He got a job at a coffee shop. My friend was the owner--he looked a little rough but he was a good worker and each payday he came to work in better shape.  Long shaggy hair was cut and groomed, clothing soon became more than two outfits than did not fit. Winter time came and he asked to work the late shift- Fred Meyers was a24 hour store he sometimes got a ride there from people as he got to know them. I never thought much about that. Till a year later when he moved into my condo building one floor down from me. 

We talked more as we kept running in to each other as he brought his stuff in. He was just so giddy about getting the condo --yes, it was just a rental but he was OVER the top --or so I thought. 

I invited him for dinner it was his first night--people knew him but he did not really have close friends--he always had this mystery about him. He ask for another of his request to to Fred meyers--It was on my way no biggy--but I say him on my back home after running som errands. In the parking lot with more of his stuff--

I picked him up--and learn that for a year plus a bit he had put up a tent and camped out of sight in the woods. The store was his bathroom, and each night he would get some propane bottles and half price deli items as it shut down--he just carried them into the woods and saved his money till he had the first, last, and deposit.and a nest egg.

I learned his goal was to stand on his own two feet--both parents --I was told were college proff. in the state--but he screwed up wasted part of his live with drugs and booze and spent a bit of time in API --details I never pressed for but I knew he said he burned his bridges and was disowned and his hair had grown 9 inches at least so it had to be a spell


Vinny was so please each week he got something new--dishes or towels --I was close so got to be his show and tell each Friday ---Plus as for real cooking pans ect he did stop up and borrow from me -returned it with left overs for me---I can't say he was the brightest --SSI stopped and things got a little less Friday show and tell--more of a monthly deal. 

He did borrow money from me and he did pay me back ---got a TV. Made me a birthday cake the next year--He never wanted a hand out --an ear and a hand up.

NOW if walking out of a mental Hospital with on ssi check can get a guy from Fairbank to Juneau and in one week he is working a goal and a plan ---that included really roughing it but staying the course he got it done. 

Can it be done yes--I am greatfull I have never had it as rough as he had it--But ya know--seeing him in the coffee shop at work--He worked hard not to have a sole learn how he was living.

He lost his victim card and replaced it was a responcablity card.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Patchouli said:


> Again at the time you did that prices were probably better and jobs were probably more easily available. I am impressed that you were able to find a reliable babysitter in a new town in a week not knowing anyone.


Actually, I did. I went to the local Lutheran church, as that is how I was raised. They had a daycare there. They were wonderful.:thumb:
As to prices, my rent for a studio basement apartment, was right around 395.00 as I recall. That did not include electric, or phone. 
Gas was crazy affordable back then of course. Groceries...... oh maybe 50.00 a week.
I waited tables at an IHOP and at a Denny's, to the best of my knowledge, both places are still in business, and hiring.
The year was 1983, btw, and my wage was a whopping 1.85 an hour, plus tips.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

This is a simple matter, really.

It's a case of living by the Golden Rule..._He who has the gold, rules._

In this case, the employer wants the guys to close. End of story, end of argument. Therefore, the guys close. So, find guys who don't mind making the extra money, to do the closing.

As an old manager, one thing I've learned: It's the people you don't fire, who cause the most trouble.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Work is not fun ,that's why it is called work and you get paid for your time away from fun !


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Grumpy old man said:


> Work is not fun ,that's why it is called work and you get paid for your time away from fun !


Thats pretty much how I looked at work most of my life... my last "job" (real estate agent) however was a lot of fun. There wasnt much work to it, we all had a blast and made more money than I ever did working. I can honestly say it was the best decade of my life.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Thats pretty much how I looked at work most of my life... my last "job" (real estate agent) however was a lot of fun. There wasnt much work to it, we all had a blast and made more money than I ever did working. I can honestly say it was the best decade of my life.


Real estate has become my new "job" I've been buying wooded properties with no access or services and adding those items clearing a building lot (which I enjoy working my equipment ) and many times they are sold before I'm even done for 3+x the money fast turn and burn on small cash investments usually less than $25,000.00 sell for $60-85,000.00 in as little as a month .But with access and services maybe a constuction shed /building the banks will be easier to loan on land that they otherwise wouldn't .:teehee:


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

hercsmama said:


> Actually, I did. I went to the local Lutheran church, as that is how I was raised. They had a daycare there. They were wonderful.:thumb:
> As to prices, my rent for a studio basement apartment, was right around 395.00 as I recall. That did not include electric, or phone.
> Gas was crazy affordable back then of course. Groceries...... oh maybe 50.00 a week.
> I waited tables at an IHOP and at a Denny's, to the best of my knowledge, both places are still in business, and hiring.
> *The year was 1983, btw, and my wage was a whopping 1.85 an hour, plus tips*.


The year is 2013......THIRTY YEARS LATER, servers make a whopping 2.13.

A .28 raise in 30 years.....heck, that's almost a penny a year!!!
And some people whine when they only get a 4% raise!!


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## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

I didn't read the thread in its entirety, as once page 2 rolls around things start to get derailed usually.

But chivalry isn't dead, at least in my house as I'm raising my son with manners, morals and good character. He's a great kid, truly, and it gives me hope for the future.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Less-is-more said:


> I didn't read the thread in its entirety, as once page 2 rolls around things start to get derailed usually.
> 
> But chivalry isn't dead, at least in my house as I'm raising my son with manners, morals and good character. He's a great kid, truly, and it gives me hope for the future.


Yeppers, that's how its done, one child at a time.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Less-is-more said:


> I didn't read the thread in its entirety, as once page 2 rolls around things start to get derailed usually.
> 
> But chivalry isn't dead, at least in my house as I'm raising my son with manners, morals and good character. He's a great kid, truly, and it gives me hope for the future.


Make that two!!
It's not easy to raising boys to men these days, but it can be done!!


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

like males are the only ones with bad/poor manner....


Sorry, but both genders have had manners go south to the toilet. Don't blame it all on men/boys.


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## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

farmerj said:


> like males are the only ones with bad/poor manner....
> 
> 
> Sorry, but both genders have had manners go south to the toilet. Don't blame it all on men/boys.


I agree, it goes both ways No worries here..I'm an equal opp. mom. Daughter has been taught to hold the door open for everyone as well as give her seat up and all those other polite mannerly things. 

But the thread in the beginning was about men and chivalrous actions?


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

Less-is-more said:


> I agree, it goes both ways No worries here..I'm an equal opp. mom. Daughter has been taught to hold the door open for everyone as well as give her seat up and all those other polite mannerly things.
> 
> But the thread in the beginning was about men and chivalrous actions?


the thread was originally about men at work and whether or not they should be "chivalrous" as part of a job requirement.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

No the thread was originally about 3 guys whining about staying until the end of their shift.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Homesteading Today mobile app


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Would a real man just stand up and slap these self entitled brats !


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

MJsLady said:


> No the thread was originally about 3 guys whining about staying until the end of their shift.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Homesteading Today mobile app


The were complaining about WHO was going to "provide protection" for the owner and other female and felt it was wrong.

All depends on ones perspective of how you are looking at it.

I saw them as taking offense to being told WHY they were being held later.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

I guess the thought that and EMPLOYOR asigns the tasks is over stepping the role of the EMPLOYOR?

Sorry---but people at work who complain about doing the job assigned--and people defend that behavior is odd.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

there's a difference between assigning a task, IE, you need to fill the ice bins before you leave, that are RELATED to your job position....

And directing a person to do something based on gender and then punishing them for taking offense to that requirement.


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## housewife (Mar 16, 2006)

Oh come on guys I'm sure there are a million and a half things that need to be done in a resturant at closing. And if not there is always prep for the next day. Just cause the OP felt that there was safty in numbers and wanted one of the number to be male so what. He would be on the clock and doing other things to help with close up I'm sure. She is conserned about her workers safty and the is way more than can be said ablut my last job... corp was conserned with the bottom line and if one of us had died they would have found some "cute" rep to cry for the newspapers. They would have projected "caring" better than hollywood!

My children were all raised to respect people and be polite. Open doors, give up their seat and give back to the comunity. This was really hard to teach when we moved here and were rejected by the comunity but it was done. 

I am so very tired of people whining about jobs and money... there are jobs out there. Yea some of them require you move and? Some of them are horid and have bad hours and? The job is beneath them, really? It means you have to feed a family on 25 bucks a week and? I have moved, worked some really crappy hours and jobs and fed a family of 5 plus 2 cats and a dog on that. We ate meat on sale... I didn't like some of it but it was meat and on sale. Cook it in enough sauce you can't tell... We servived and got better jobs. No one handed us stuff we worked hard we scrimped we made due. We still do. But I look around and feel sick at the number of crybabies who "have to throw it away and buy a new one", and they have to buy it at a rent to own at four times the price cause the need a TV/whatever. Even kids are throw away to some. Then they have the nerve to wonder why the world seems to be going somewhere warm in a hand bag!?! Gee I wonder. 

You want a pay cheque suck it up and do your job... You don't want to follow a legal comand quit and starve... Problem solved!!


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

It's a management issue. If you want an employee to stay until the end of the day that's how you write the schedule. You put that duty in the job description or add the catch all phrase- "Other duties as assigned". It sounds like the OP walked in on the conversation the 3 guys were having about who stayed. A few minutes later and they likely would have resolved it among themselves as they had probably always done or else this issue would have arisen before. In betting all three had hustled through their closing duties because they had other things they would rather do than hang around later. Maybe a date with a special friend. Maybe the babysitter doesn't like to stay later and charges more. Maybe they need to get up early to go to their other job. Lots of possible factors. A simple schedule solves the problem for everyone and changing hours and schedules in a punitive manner without addressing each of these employees in a duly recorded disciplinary meeting opens up a whole new area if problems. Labor lawyers love constructive discharge cases.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

One of those 3 young boys were being paid to stay.. Whether they were sitting and waiting for the other employees to finish or whether they were cleaning out the trash containers..

The young lads(all 3 of them) whining is sad and shows that the "me" society is alive and well...

Even if they were just sitting there they were being paid to sit there.. Yet they want to complain about it.. 

Some day they may grow up to become men, but not likely.. 

If I was the owner I would have sent them home also. The difference if I sent them home, they wouldn't be coming back.. There is always someone else that wants and needs a job.. 
Their whining also shows they have no regard for the other employees, be it their safety or helping them get finished (since the OP said the 3 young boys were sitting around).

When I ran a flour mill (3rd shift miller) back in the mid 80's. We had to always have 2 people on duty/present at all times.. No we weren't worried about being robbed, but about the safety of the other person.. Just in case one of us would have ever gotten caught in a piece of machinery.. We both had different tasks and assigned duties, but if one was finished, the other would be their helping till we both were done with those tasks.. 

Yea I know imagine that! others helping each other.. I know it's such a new concept, that some younger folks just can't grasp or understand it...

On a side note: that is one job that I miss.. I really did enjoy making flour from wheat and it was a hands on job.. Had it just paid better in those days.. Now I understand that the computer takes care of the Rollers and such that it really is just a matter of pushing buttons.. This was an "old school" mill that still used flat belts and such. The miller had to do all the adjustments by hand, just from the feel and touch of the flour..


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

beowoulf90 said:


> One of those 3 young boys were being paid to stay.. Whether they were sitting and waiting for the other employees to finish or whether they were cleaning out the trash containers..
> 
> The young lads(all 3 of them) whining is sad and shows that the "me" society is alive and well...
> 
> ...


The issue is that the decision was left to the three employees involved. Had management assigned the duty of staying to one of the employees there would have been no issue. Had management walked away and let them continue to resolve it among themselves they likely would have. Management didn't do their job in scheduling a specific employee for this duty and the employees shouldn't be punished for that lack of foresight.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

*DH always makes sure that there are men scheduled to work until closing* so the females aren't closing alone.



per the op----the boys were scheduled and on the clock and all the men were on the clock as in --the use of the plural of man is men.




The bolded is directly copied and pasted from the very first post--That was the business plan per the owners---it was the selfish plan of the boys to limit it to ONE 




Tonight I walked up on a conversation with the 3 male employees scheduled until closing, arguing over who was going to stay with the females since they'd all finished their work early. They resented the fact that they had to assume the role of "body guard" at closing.


Facts provided by the OP


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

Two Broke Girls. Three Men Whining. Just testing for a new sitcom title.

I like to have grandsons see me make a game out of picking stuff up when it is time. Also pulling out chairs, hanging coats, opening doors. They here me say "yes Ma'am" and yes Sir lots. I keep listening for when they start doing it on their own. They are little. It will happen.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

The owner admits she was armed with a pistol. There was another female bartender on-duty already.

Why was she keeping three employees who had completed all there jobs still? Because they were male and they were supposed to provide protection?

Since she made this a habit and they were now taking offense to it, they are lacking chivalry and deserve to have their pay reduced....


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Because they were scheduled by their employor --that is a clue---that is the fact. Complaining and justifing does not negate that plain and simple fact that it was their job to be at work during business hours. Come on---would it be acceptidable for a cook to leave if during a slow time between say lunch and dinner to complain about having no one to cook for? 

When I worked in the office and was all caught up and had to wait for a call to come in to answer it should I have left when the phone did not ring.

While on the job--task change due to the nature of job and the flow of work--deal with it or accept that fewer employers will be intrested in hireing those who can't grasp the need to be able to preform the job the employor assigns--if you do not iike the task --quit--(best to find another first but be honest --complain that you are looking for a new job cause your current one demands that you work the assigned task while on the clock).


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

The point is that the OP only wanted one of the three to stay or they wouldn't have been having the discussion as to who it would be. This left the decision process in the employees hands. The OP didn't allow this process to come to its conclusion before stepping in and sending them all home. The simple solution is to schedule one male employee each night to be the designated closer/bodyguard. This puts the decision back in managements hands, where it belongs. Either you manage your employees or they manage you.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Tonight I walked up on a conversation with the 3 male employees scheduled until closing, arguing over who was going to stay with the females since they'd all finished their work early. They resented the fact that they had to assume the role of "body guard" at closing.


Facts provided by the OP 


_It's a management issue. If you want an employee to stay until the end of the day that's how you write the schedule. per mpete_

SEE ABOVE AS THE OWNER DID Just what you said that they should do to solve the issue.. ALL were on the schedule none wish to work the schedule as written.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

If all three were expected to stay then there should have been no discussion among them as to who stayed, they all would have expected to stay. Closing can mean several things on a schedule. If the kitchen closes prior to the bar it is customary that working until close means that when the kitchen is no longer producing and serving food and all clean up is done it is closed and kitchen staff is dismissed. I have worked nowhere where closing the kitchen required me to wait until bar staff was done. It sometimes happened if we kept the kitchen open late for some reason, but generally when a kitchen staff member had completed his cleaning duties he was free to go. We could ask the OP what working until close has customarily meant in her establishment and how it was customarily decided who stayed until the servers left or we can continue to debate facts we don't really know.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> The issue is that the decision was left to the three employees involved. Had management assigned the duty of staying to one of the employees there would have been no issue. Had management walked away and let them continue to resolve it among themselves they likely would have. Management didn't do their job in scheduling a specific employee for this duty and the employees shouldn't be punished for that lack of foresight.


This is true that management didn't schedule someone. 
This is an issue that should be resolved.

But for the 3 boys, to bicker about who is staying and who isn't is just as wrong. I understand not getting paid for the time, but they were being paid.

Who couldn't use a few more dollars for a minimal investment of time. 

Were they going to be there longer than an extra hour? 
I don't know, but doubt it.

This also shows no loyalty to the employer. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect the employees to eat only at the restaurant when they eat out or to defend the restaurant's Honor etc. But I do expect them to do their job to the best of their ability and help the company to do business and do it well.. If they don't like working for that business, then find another business/company.. 

If you don't like your job, find one that you do like.. 

It really is that simple!


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Per the very first post it was clear that the three boys were ALL schedued to be on the clock getting paid till CLOSING but the boys were talking about not following who should stay as if the fact that ALL were scheduled by the employor did not matter but they they the boys felt that some should be able to leave--Please READ the first post --I have copied it --bolded it and changed the color---




The boys were plotting to disreguard the bosses schedule.



Tonight I walked up on a conversation with the *3 male employees scheduled until closing,* arguing over who was going to stay with the females since they'd all finished their work early. They resented the fact that they had to assume the role of "body guard" at closing. In all honesty it would probably be us women protecting their scrawny rears (I'm armed! They are not.) but nevertheless............

I told all three to clock out and go home and reminded them that* I didn't need them for security but simply a deterrent in numbers, also known as team work by looking out for one another.*


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

beowoulf90 said:


> This is true that management didn't schedule someone.
> This is an issue that should be resolved.
> 
> But for the 3 boys, to bicker about who is staying and who isn't is just as wrong. I understand not getting paid for the time, but they were being paid.
> ...


Since I don't know the three in question personally I can only speculate on why they would be anxious to leave when their primary duties were done. There are many valid reasons why another $5 or $6 dollars after tax might not be worth staying. If the babysitter charged an extra $10 for being late, for example. Had the OP walked in a few minutes later the issue probably would have been resolved without her knowledge. Loyalty to an employer is a wonderful thing where it exists, but it generally only happens when that loyalty is reciprocated. Rather than threatening schedule changes and other economic repercussions a good manager would schedule individual meetings with these employees to discuss the situation and put in place policies, clearly delineated, to avoid such incidents in the future.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Three were on the schedule to work TILL closing period---NOT just one person but 3

next=- What in the world is this ....... anxious to leave when their *primary* duties were done -----guess what primary or secondary ---it is a job and you have to do all of the duties as asigned not pick and choose--you can pick you employment ------------but as to and employee to set the quality of work acceptable NO--that job is that of the OWNER---EmployOR.

Want to set the schedule=--Start your own business.

So what are we now to give out particapation awards for getting hired? When you are at work ---WORK.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Until we know the defintion of close as it pertains to this establishment we are engaging in speculation and conjecture , so I will continue. The fact that these employees were having a discussion as to who stays implies , to me, that it is customary that only one is required to stay. If not, the simple answer for the OP would have been to remind them that they were all scheduled to be there and not get upset that they were deciding amongst themselves who did stay. I saw nothing in the OP that any of them refused a direct order to stay, therefor I can see no workplace rule they broke. I'll also speculate that this wasn't the first discussion amongst kitchen staff as to who would stay, but it might be the first the OP has witnessed. Once again, had the OP walked in five minutes later she likely would have found the situation resolved and had employee there. Clear, concise workplace rules that everyone understands would preempt this type of problem. They didn't seem to exist in this case.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

I stand corrected. 

The three boys were scheduled.. as pointed out to us..

So what is the problem with them staying? They were being paid for their time...

It seems that if it was my business I would have told them to go home and don't bother coming back.. If you are scheduled to be there, are being paid for the time/work, then be there and quit complaining about it..

If you don't want to be there, fine by me. Find another job..

There is always someone else that will do the job that needs done..


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