# Cleaning Habits...



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I saw a post (on a different thread) where someone posted something like,
"More firearms have been ruined by over-cleaning than by shooting".
Some agreed with the statement.

I'm not as diciplined as I used to be, but I clean after about every use.
If it's just handled and not fired (didn't see a rabbit or squirrel) I still wipe it down and run a oil swab through the barrel since dust & condensation, fingerprints, etc aren't good for the finish, inside or our.

The other part of that is, I don't have any idea when it will be used the next time, it might be years before it gets out of the safe again.

What had me scratching my head was how you 'Ruin' a firearm by cleaning?
What is someone using to 'Clean' that can run the firearm?
Why would you use something that would/could ruin your firearm?

I'm aware there are the guys that simply won't give up the old sectioned steel (military) cleaning rods, and no one can do anything about 'Stubborn', but it's 'Stubborn' rather than the actual cleaning that causes damage, so you have to exclude that...

But hasn't most everything made in the last 30 years or so been pretty well non-destructive or did I miss something?
I haven't seen a steel patch jag in probably 30 years (or didn't notice it), and bore brushes on the civilian market are pretty much all bronze or nylon, where is the 'Ruining' coming from?

I switched from bronze brushes to nylon, mostly because I use ammonia based bore cleaner, and the bronze brushes corrode in ammonia, I'm pretty sure nylon brushes have never harmed a bore no matter how many times they get pushed through.
All I ever saw a bronze brush do was burnish the bore with bronze smearing, doesn't effect accuracy or damage the bore...

The damage I see is inflicted by the owner.
Old steel section rods taking bites out of muzzle crowns, old steel brushes used on external finish, screwdrivers that don't fit gun screws chewing up screw heads, etc.
It's not cleaning, it's abuse since military steel section rods were designed to use the flash hider as a bore guide, using them on something without a bore guide is abuse...
Same with a common screw driver on gun screws.

So what am I missing, how does cleaning 'Ruin' the firearm?


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

some call it cleaning you call it abuse but you have outlined it decently. steel rods , bad brushes , caustic cleaners , junk drawer screw driver that doesn't fit anything.

I still see a fair amount of un-coated Aluminum rods , not as bad as steel but still abrasive to the crown and often they don't have a long enough rod to clean from the breech.

some of the cleaners used , are caustic and I think many don't neutralize the cleaning agent . then run some lube patches when they have rust in the bore later they repeat the same cleaning 

I find myself most often wipe down and pull through bore snake type unless I am at a round count where I think I need to remove copper with the pull through I make sure to pull in short pulls and keep the pull cord centered in the bore.
when I clean copper I use the nylon brushes on a tipton coated rod from the breech or use a bore guide.

unfortunately firearms myths and habits die hard rooted in what someones father told them was gospel 50 years ago and he got it 20 years before that.
things have changed in 70 years but many peoples procedures have not.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

JeepHammer said:


> I saw a post (on a different thread) where someone posted something like,
> "More firearms have been ruined by over-cleaning than by shooting".
> Some agreed with the statement.
> 
> ...


I think the specific quote you’re referring to was from @Chuck R., and I do think that, like @GREENCOUNTYPETE said, you’ve outlined many of the potential pitfalls of poorly executed cleaning, but there are a lot of other ways that, to Chuck’s point, guns are commonly “ruined” by excessive/improper cleaning.
Some examples:

When I was gunsmithing full time, I had at least a couple dozen clients over the years bring me rifles that “wouldn’t hold a zero”.
Why?
After zeroing, or after shooting their first deer of the season, they’d clean it. (_That one specifically gets to the point Chuck and I were discussing_).

Some “know-just-enough-to-be-dangerous” folks will do full-detail strips on guns after a single trip to the range that lasted less than a box of ammo. It’s not necessarily bad, but that level of attention does put undue wear on pins, springs, detents and such.

Some folks will do an aggressive carbon scrape on gas-system parts of autoloaders when, in many cases, the initial carbon-fouling seal is actually beneficial to the reliability of the firearm. I’ve seen a bunch of AR bolt carriers and gas rings prematurely hit the trash can for this. Many new user-serviceable silencer owners are bad about this one, too.

Some designs don’t lend themselves to bore-cleaning from the breach, and each time the bore gets cleaned presents another opportunity to damage a crown, when a once-or-twice -per-decade bore cleaning would have suited that particular rifle just fine.


There’s tons of other ways in which over-cleaning presents the risk of damaging and/or reducing the performance of a firearm, when it wasn’t even necessary to begin with.

You like to give your guns a wipe down, inside and out, when they’ve been handled (fired or not), and that’s fine. That apparently works for you, and the external wipe down is advisable on some materials/finishes, regardless, but that same process can be detrimental to some materials, finishes, and uses.

Different folks = different strokes.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> ...I still see a fair amount of un-coated Aluminum rods , not as bad as steel but still abrasive to the crown and often they don't have a long enough rod to clean from the breech...


Actually, that might even be worse. Aluminum-oxide is generally harder than steel alloys (reference: most sand paper), and definitely harder than most iron oxides.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

another example of gun damaged during an excessive cleaning most commonly seen in shotguns and lever guns .
excessive oil then stand the gun up in the corner all that excess oil creeps down and out the back of the action to saturate , discolor and weaken the wood fiber of the stock at the wrist , the wood shrinks over time and the stock to action connection gets loose , hard recoil and the wood cracks , or splits off pieces.

excessive torque is another issue , it isn't that hard to over torque stock screws , you need tight but if you go too far you crush wood fiber around 30-35 inch pounds.

not many people own a inch pound torque wrench and torque the same each time.

back to excessive oil , if some is good more must be better! until the gun is noticeably wet inside , this captures the grit that finds it's way in to the gun. run dry there would be some friction , run very wet with some added blowing dust and dirt , grit , your trapping abrasives in the oil holding the abrasive in the action.

excessive oil in the chamber is bad also.

how about WD40 , it turns to varnish and gums up the action meaning a gun cleaned at the end of last season needs to be cleaned again before this season because when pulled from the safe the action is sticking.


----------



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

GCP,
I agree about the non coated rods and when I use rods, I do what my father showed me and put a couple cleaning rag strips wrapped around the rod and tuck locked in place to bumper the rod.

Some friends think I am odd for using wooden dowel rods and a bore snake when possible until I explain that both are bore and rifling friendly.

Another tactic my father taught me for long time not cleaned weapons to clear lead fouling was to plug the end of a long gun barrel, fill the barrel with Marvel Mystery Oil to soak overnight before normal cleaning.

My neighbor brought his rifle over because he noticed surface rust at the end of the barrel and when I looked down the barrel, the fouling was so bad it looked almost smooth bored.

I told him I could clean the barrel and the end rust wasn't too bad and I could probably clean and cold blue it but a gunsmith could do better with a hot blue vat. He cheaped out and had me do it instead of taking it to a gunsmith

Took a few days but I was able to clean it up and reassemble it and take it to a friend's field berm range who in the 1980s worked in a Remington plant and he said it looked good before we test fired and accuracy checked it.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I'm pretty tame, nothing exotic in normal cleaning.
One piece rod, something softer than than the barrel, nothing that can gouge...
From the chamber if I can get to it, action/chamber guides if they will fit, careful around crowns...

When I switched to ammonia based cleaners, I learned the lesson about bronze brushes.
I'm pretty well all nylon now, and other than raw lead, I think they might work a little better.
They certainly don't mat down like bronze does.

The first bore snake I saw was in the military about 1980, the guys were using the fat para-cord from cargo parachutes, taking the core out of the leader. 

I see them in the shop, or rescue some old rifle, and have to get aggressive, I like the old Stevens Favorites & Crack Shots, some of those are 'Smoothbore' when I find them.
Electrolysis gets the bulk of lead/crud out, then I get solvent & brush happy.
That's a 'Worst Case' thing.

The biggest damage I see is gouges in the crown and lost parts, followed by finish scratches/removal and gouged screws.
Not a lot of screws anymore since so many makers have switched to tool-less takedown.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> I saw a post (on a different thread) where someone posted something like,
> "More firearms have been ruined by over-cleaning than by shooting".
> Some agreed with the statement.


It's just the facts.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I cleaned up my cousins 243 a few years ago he said it started loosing accuracy. meaning groups opened up.

the barrel hadn't been cleaned since 1975 which would have been OK since he probably only had 200 rounds through it but he also had a bad habit of letting it ride around in the cab of the truck for a few months after deer season.

the barrel was green inside.

things may not need a full cleaning very often but they do benefit from a touch of good lube / corrosion protection and being dry and put away at the end of season.

that is where I like the pull through , I have mostly switched over to the hornady one shot cleaner and dry lube a shot of that down the barrel and a pull through , they might take a few rounds to be perfect for next season but that isn't a big deal we were going to do some practice any way.

I had been using CLP or ATF but was finding both seemed to get a little sticky on the pump shotgun bolts after months or a year of sitting

I care for our county youth shooting sports program guns and as long as the 22s keep making nice groups a pull through with some one shot and wipe down of bolt and metal parts of the gun and I can put it away in the safe and it will be good in the spring again.
when the 22s stop grouping I go scrubbing but the only ones I have had to do that to were in service for 10+ years and I don't even thing they were getting a pull through before I took over.

I have bought 22s that were like you said almost a smooth bore with the grey in the barrel , got one for a very reasonable price outside of the gun was great it would shoot patterns at 25 yards compared to the ragged hole it would shoot after.

the first pull through I saw was Dacron fishing line and strips of old t-shirt to pull through a shotgun to dry it out when hunting in the rain.

we try and sight in on a nice day in oct or early nov for deer season and I don't touch the bore till season is over typically.


----------



## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I think the specific quote you’re referring to was from @Chuck R., and I do think that, like @GREENCOUNTYPETE said, you’ve outlined many of the potential pitfalls of poorly executed cleaning, but there are a lot of other ways that, to Chuck’s point, guns are commonly “ruined” by excessive/improper cleaning.
> Some examples:
> 
> When I was gunsmithing full time, I had at least a couple dozen clients over the years bring me rifles that “wouldn’t hold a zero”.
> ...


and that sums it up pretty well!


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I was taught to shoot/clean by depression era grandpa, so buy good tools & take care of them.
Didn't matter if it was a shovel, axe or firearm, it got cleaned and put away for next use.
The very old teaches the very young, while stronger folks did the bulk of the hard work.

It served me well in the Marines. 

I 'Clean' everything, everytime, but the amount of effort depends entirely on usage.
Wipe down, oil, barrel swab takes about no time, while full tear down and DI inspection clean takes longer... Not hard, just a little time consuming.

I'm also supporting the local shooting sports,
But I use bribes, when the youngers stay to help, I buy pizza.
Since there is an off season here the last cleaning is top to bottom for winter storage.

A couple ideas I picked up,
A big pill bottle with a shaving (oiling) brush screwed into the lid.
Doesn't dry out, and is stupid fast for finger print removal.
It also doesn't cost a fortune or take a degree to figure out or operate.
I leave a couple on top the gun safe to remind myself...

Instead of chamber flags, I've switched to anti-corrosion paper bore tubes, I just paint one end (red, orange, whatever is laying around) and leave the painted end sticking out of the chamber.
Since I have more than I need, some firearms don't see the light of day for a year or more, and I'm *Hoping* the tubes will keep the bores in good shape even when I forget about them.

I've been trying this for a few years now and it seems to work pretty well.
We have brutal humidity here, so things rust in a heartbeat.
I've been using pans of dried rice in the job boxes instead of plug in dehumidifiers.
If there is a seal on the door, the rice sucks up the moisture fairly effectively, and the tray can be a low profile 'Cookie Sheet'.
I would assume an open top jar in a gun safe would work, but haven't tried it long term yet.
The rice is 100% re-useable, stupid cheap, non-toxic etc. etc.
I dry it out once in awhile in the oven, ready to go again.

Probably not the best for raw steel, but it works quite well for anything with a coating or finish.
Right now, raw steel will rust in the milling machine while you are working it, and it takes Casey Burchwood 'Baracade' to keep it from rusting, and that stuff isn't cheap.
It's not an oxygen absorber, but it does well with humidity.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Jeep, luckily we have county storage that is climate controlled. we received a case of Hoppes gun wipes in a donation I keep a container of the wipes on each safe for use as needed.

I am liking the Hornady 1 shot product it has a very light odor and longer term corrosion protection than oil , ATF or CLP and being a dry lube it doesn't collect the dust and range grit the same way the ATF , CLP and oils do.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I've seen guys at the club approach every problem they have with a firearm by oiling the crap out of it.
They'd set it on a table and it would leave a puddle like an old Ford truck. They always have problems, Jamming, sticking, not cycling and all they do is add more oil.
In hunter training I teach that firearms require an absolute minimum of oil. They should almost be fired dry.
It's been working for me for years.


----------



## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

JJ Grandits said:


> I've seen guys at the club approach every problem they have with a firearm by oiling the crap out of it.
> They'd set it on a table and it would leave a puddle like an old Ford truck. They always have problems, Jamming, sticking, not cycling and all they do is add more oil.
> In hunter training I teach that firearms require an absolute minimum of oil. They should almost be fired dry.
> It's been working for me for years.


Depends on the gun and the usage. 

Yesterday's 3Gun match for example I saw multiple guns had issues that were cured by adding oil. In all the issues I saw they were ARs and semi shotguns, but not used they way they would be normally due to round count and elapsed time. The average guy doesn't fire a shotgun 18 times in under 40 seconds, nor does he shoot an AR 30 rounds in the same time (or less), but it's common in a stage and there are 5 or 6 stages in a match. 

Those guns, in high volume situations I run "wet" and don't have any issues. 

I went through 132 rds of .223, 76 rds of shotgun, 98 rds of pistol yesterday in a total of 390.6 seconds (total including movement & reloads). Kind of depressing when you realize that I was at the match for a 8hrs for a little over 6 minutes of actually pulling a trigger but that's the nature of the game. If I was better I'd be shooting for even less time....


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

certainly the nature of the game , my round count isn't quite that high but I am generally only there 3.5 hours to get if I am running right less than 90 seconds on the clock.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I can see you're point. Outside of practice deer hunting only takes one or two rounds.
For trap 50 does it.


----------

