# Muslims shoot up office in France, kill 12



## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30710883

This sort of thing will happen here, it's a matter of time. Will you be ready if it happens in your office, or grocery store, etc? 

It's a prime example of why I encourage people to carry the largest gun that they can. Yeah, I know it's not as convenient as that pocket clip variety. But really, who buys insurance for the best possible outcome?


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## ninny (Dec 12, 2005)

Gabriel said:


> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30710883
> 
> This sort of thing will happen here, it's a matter of time. Will you be ready if it happens in your office, or grocery store, etc?
> 
> It's a prime example of why I encourage people to carry the largest gun that they can. Yeah, I know it's not as convenient as that pocket clip variety. But really, who buys insurance for the best possible outcome?


If someone in that office had been armed the outcome could have been very different as would the outcome in most of the mass shootings anywhere in the world. The shooters always pick places that they know the occupants won't be armed.


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## JohnnyRebel (Dec 23, 2014)

Hopefully our fearless leader (who hates guns) can convince the muslims (who are his people) to not shoot up some press comapnies (which he is against the Constitution). What is anyone worried about, we'll be ok.....right?


:hijacked: <----They're already here


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

http://knowledgeskillgear.com/why-you-should-carry-a-bigger-gun.html


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

From what I've heard there were several attackers, well armed including an RPG launcher. In that instance a .44 mag isn't going to stop much. Apparently the newspaper had printed some cartoons insulting the "prophet".


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I read through that article , that office had received death threats and was under police protection , the 2 police were listed among the dead , they were overwhelmed by an i.s.i.s attack with multiple attackers and rifles 


if we get to this point here , we will need an AR , body armor in every office and barriers to entry 
they were there to kill people to avenge the disrespect to their profit , the attackers stopped to shoot the wounded cop in the head before leaving.
if a lot of people in the office had been armed it might have bought them time or stopped some of the attackers but those attackers were most likely willing to die to kill the people in the office 

it will likely be more than 1 one person with a handgun to stop a planned attack of this nature , beyond carrying a gun it would be wise but unlikely to happen that a plan of action formed and persons who carry to train for such an event , the military would , security contractors would , but it is unlikely persons in an office would 

so far in this country we have generally seen a loan gunman who gave up as soon as challenged , that is not i.s.i.s they will not turn tail and run or surrender at the first sign of police force , and frankly they can't from what we are told by the few that deserted i.s.i.s they can complete their mission or Die "honorably" trying if they surrender in "disgrace" they can likely expect everyone in their family to be killed for their "disgrace"

this is not to say that carrying could not make a difference , and does make a huge difference in anything but a multi gunman pointed military attack.
one difference that it could make is to get one of the attackers and have some way to get an Id on him and maybe his known associates when they don't have a mask covering their face


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Here's an analysis of two shootings where the good guys produced pistols to fight bad guys (singular in both cases) with a rifle. http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/ccw/tacoma_tyler.htm



> How do our ethics and religious principles affect our tactical decisions? *snip* McKown is the progeny of a deeply committed Christian family. His parents are involved in a prison outreach ministry, and he shares their convictions. By his own report, when he looked at the boyish Maldonado, he could not bring himself to take the shot.


Could you take the shot? If you have to stop and think about it while it's going down, more people will die... make up your mind now one way or the other. 

From Gabe Suarez:_ "In the era of the Jihadist...when anyone could be a Jihadist, and where any man or woman may be the target, we must also ring in the era of the Private Counter Terrorist, where everyman who may find himself at the moment of truth, is in fact his own Counter Terrorist. So that events such as these, should fate place you there, will find you with a weapon in your hand (either taken from the terrorist you just killed with a knife, or illegally carried in the first place) and smiling at the prospect of a good battle - rather than hiding under a desk hoping to go undiscovered." _


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Ozarks Tom said:


> From what I've heard there were several attackers, well armed including an RPG launcher. In that instance a .44 mag isn't going to stop much.


I don't get your point. It wouldn't matter if they were pulling a Radio Flyer wagon with a Dillon Mini mounted on it, if you throw a bullet at them, and it goes through them, you just made progress. Having an RPG doesn't shield them, or make them more difficult to kill.

Even if they're wearing body armor, hitting them in the chest with a .44 would at least be like hitting them with a sledge, stun them, and give you a moment to get away or close distance. 

It's always better to be armed than not.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Absolutely. The first one with just a pistol may not kill both, but if even one is wounded, it slows them way down. Get multiple people in the office with pistols and make the price higher than they want to pay.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

every person needs to decide when they are legally justified , and feel personally justified if the the two don't line up . in either direction. when that times comes no words are needed , the first thing they should see is muzzle flash 

Gabreil, you presented some very odd cases , one where the guy left his home to engage the gunman , this would have been the perfect time to grab a rifle to engage if one is going to leave the safety of their home to do so it was also a case where the gunman was wearing a bullet resistant vest over a flack vest so he was hardly phased by the 45acp rounds , assessing these situations before just walking into them is going to be important 


gunmonkeyint - no an rpg does not shield them , but it makes cover real hard to find 

yes better to be armed than not , and when given the choice of certain death or engaging one should always engage , but quick assessment as to when it is time to run , cover , go for better tools or support is something that should be considered ahead of time what are your limitations. 


many practice center mass it may be a good idea to practice some Mozambique drills also

this isn't the movies one hero may not save the day , support , people teaming up , multiple people who carry and some level of communication between them can be a huge force multiplier


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## FireMaker (Apr 3, 2014)

Pete, well said. If you are in this type of situation, accept death, don't choose to. Take as many with you as possible. Each one will buy time for authorities to prepare. Hopefully, they will not come in blind. Each one that is taken also increases evidence for identification of the others..


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

I stand corrected. When I posted earlier I'd just heard a report that several terrorists arrived in 2 cars, carrying AKs and RPGs. With only 2 terrorists, yes, a handgun could conceivably stop the attack.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...h-anjem-choudary-editorials-debates/21417461/

Well, there you have it. It's the fault of the victims...


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## Le Petit Norman (Apr 28, 2008)

3 men arrived in a car one stayed behind in the car, the two gun man went in the building and opened fire, there was a policeman in the room where the shooting happened, as far as i can read no information have been given on the fact that he was able to open fire or not. The gunman were heavily armed and wearing bullet proof equipment, When leaving the building they engaged the policemen that were the first on site killing one of them who was wounded with a bullet in the head.

Edit reason :

Not one second did I wanted to start a controversy here, I believe like many thousand people I am angered today, I removed any data that might have been seen as malicious, I did screen shot my two posts before hand if a moderator want to see them and inflict me any sanction they are welcome. I left the above part as there was some different info on what happened in the previous comments.

GREENCOUNTYPETE, Gabriel, you were the only one to respond to me and I am sorry if my comment struck the wrong cord, I certainly have nothing against any of you as we have never meet and certainly almost never debate together. I was a military man and fight for my country to protect his constitution and his citizen's right, this is certainly not to do the opposite somewhere else.

Gentleman stay warm, winter is upon us 

Le Petit Normand (whose d do not fit when he tried to registered and had to cut his name 1 letter short)


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Le Petit Norman , where does the number 12000 come from?


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## Le Petit Norman (Apr 28, 2008)

stay warm up there, Wisconsin was the first state I lived in after I came to join my wife in the USA

Edit reason see above


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Making laws against guns has worked so well in France, maybe we should try it here, eh? 

You have every personal right to avoid guns yourself. You have none whatsoever telling me that I can't protect my family.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Le Petit Normand , it is ok to spark some controversy, I am the moderator for the Guns and HD forum I have no issue with a little controversy as long as we can present our opinions and what lead us to them like gentlemen without calling names or slander .

Thank you for your service

I Realize that this USA has an issue with gun violence , actually it has an issue with violence is a better way to put it. Many many countries have an Issue with violence , far to many cultures regard the fist as a way to solve an argument. the gun just being a more effective tool as an extension of the fist.

and sadly accidents do happen , but because of the function of guns and some education and more education is needed but these accidents number among the fewest of any equipment capable of serious injury or death

I asked about the number that you presented but edited out to avoid controversy not because I wanted to start any argument but because i wanted to understand what that number was and where it came from , so that we might take a closer look at it. numbers are tossed around in this debate all the time and all to often these numbers are exaggerated by including things that do not belong in the statistic. one such thing that is often done is to include adults in child numbers or to include deaths of persons in the commission of a crime. when 2 18 year olds participate in illegal drug traffic and shoot each other it does not make either one of them a child , innocent or an accident no matter how much their mothers cry that they were good kids.

This USA also has serious drug issues a huge ammount of crime in this country is drug use or traffic related.

the bad people of this world will find a way to give themselves a power advantage over those whom just wish to live their life in peace , be it a club , a knive , a shiv , or numbers.

therefor it is in the best interest of those who wish to live our lives in peace , to study , own and carry our own force equalizers , understanding that one day our lives may cross with evil and the outcome can be persuaded by how we react to it and the tools we have available.

I have never taken a human life , and hope that it is never necessary

but I feel I have mentally prepared myself the best that I can , I have no false expectations of the process of death , I have taken many species of mammal with many different tools , some food , some vermin , some livestock , and some loved pets. 

In my mind when a person acts in an animal like manner making themselves vermin that crosses my path and forces me to act , they will be just that Vermin in need of dispatch and it will be them that has made the decision that forced my hand.

I may be sad about the reasons or circumstances that lead them to that animal behavior just as I am about the injury or illness that caused the need to take pet or live stock ,I expect I will be very angry about being force into that corner, but that I would rather live with that anger and sadness than the loss of a loved one or my loved ones loss of me.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)




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## lonepine (May 29, 2005)

Thought I would throw in my two cents worth. The people who perpetrated this atrocity do not represent the vast majority of Muslims. One the officers murdered by these demented perps was a Muslim. Many mass shootings are committed by Christians. It might be useful to stop identifying criminal acts by ethnicity or religious affiliation.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

lonepine said:


> Thought I would throw in my two cents worth. The people who perpetrated this atrocity do not represent the vast majority of Muslims. One the officers murdered by these demented perps was a Muslim. Many mass shootings are committed by Christians. It might be useful to stop identifying criminal acts by ethnicity or religious affiliation.



good point , or add Muslim extremist or christian extremist , or (religion)extremist , if the extreem religios views play into the context of the shooting as they did in this case 

A friend of mine is a Muslim but believes very strongly in the use of arms only for self defense , he is armed and carries regularly but his "point of justification" is definitely on the safe side of the states legal definition of point of justification.

we must not alienate the good Muslims while discussing the bad


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

lonepine said:


> Thought I would throw in my two cents worth. The people who perpetrated this atrocity do not represent the vast majority of Muslims. One the officers murdered by these demented perps was a Muslim. Many mass shootings are committed by Christians. *It might be useful to stop identifying criminal acts by ethnicity or religious affiliation*.


 I understand your point as I believe you meant it, though in many cases, this included, its appropriate to call them what they are, Islamic extremists, or Islamic Jihadists. They call themselves Islamic Jihadists, it certainly isnt a perjorative to do so in describing them, and is their declared mission (make war on anyone that doesnt believe as they do, including other Muslims) and reason for being.


And no, not all Muslims are extremists, just as all Christians arent like Timothy McVeigh, or the KKK or Nazis. Those Muslims that choose to identify themselves with IS, Al qaeda or other Muslim/Islamist extremist causes, or applaud their actions, should be condemned for what they are.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I admit I made a bit of an assumption earlier that the police who were on protective duty at the charlie magazine were armed 

I have heard now that sadly they were not armed , and yes armed police that were already present could have made a huge difference , sadly they were just uniformed targets 

why on earth would you have unarmed police


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I admit I made a bit of an assumption earlier that the police who were on protective duty at the charlie magazine were armed
> 
> I have heard now that sadly they were not armed , and yes armed police that were already present could have made a huge difference , sadly they were just uniformed targets
> 
> *why on earth would you have unarmed police*


Its a matter partly of politics, and risk assesment. Someone thats from France (and is an LEO in the States) wrote that they had a relative in France that was LEO. its a tremendous amount of extra paperwork to carry a weapon there, even as an LEO. Many simply dont care to deal with it, since its a rare thing that they get shot at. I'm guessing that many more are going to be willing to do the paperwork after this event.

I have no disagreement about if an officer there (or anybody) were armed, it would have changed the situation greatly. Before somebody comes up with "They had AK's, you wouldnt have a chance!!!" Balony. Anything you can do to change their plan, and hopefully put one or more of them out of commision, can completely change the situation. They expected no resistance, and found none. Turning it into a shootout would totally change the situation and outcome, especially if somebody in the room pulled a pistol and popped one or both of them in the head before they figured out what was happening.


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