# New dogs - GP/LGD question



## JohnP (Sep 1, 2010)

Picked up a couple of LGDs from CL a few months back. The ad and person we got them from said they were both GPs but obviously one is not. He looks to be at least part Old English Sheep dog which of course they haven't been used for in decades. (curse you Border Collies) 








They were with sheep but hopefully will be ok with goats and maybe at some point, kunekune pigs. I have my doubts as to whether the Old English Sheep dog will be any good as an LGD considering it was not their original purpose and they've been used as pets for many generations. Names; The GP is Captain and the other is Jack. I suppose I should get a female GP and name her Sparrow?

Their personalities;
Well I don't think they've had much socialization with people and what little they had I don't think was a good experience. If I walk across the yard with a 2x4. stick, piece of pipe, they act scared.

Jack is skittish and won't go near his food until I step away from it so I think he was probably caught with food used as bait. 

Captain was supposed to be good with people but has nipped at my daughter once when she was brushing his back. She might have found a tender spot. He growls at my wife when she comes home. He's bit me but I'm sure I hurt him. He was trying to escape under a camper trailer and I grabbed him by the fur on his back and pulled him out. I had a heavy jacket on so I didn't get hurt. He promptly put his feet up on a bucket so his face was at the same level as me. I put my other arm up and he was ready to bite it so I put it back down and leaned away from him. I was kind of cornered and didn't want to turn my back on him but it was the only way for me to get away. I'm a little guy and he might actually outweigh me so it was a little scary. I turned my body away and watched him over my shoulder as I stepped away. Then I just used a deep voice, called him an ahole and pointed at the pen and sort of corralled him in that direction. We've been ok since but the next few times going into the pen, I was cautious. Still am. I pet him but not much because if he is really a LGD, I don't want to become his flock. My wife and neighbor think I should put him down but I'm torn and would really like to wait and see how he does with goats. I'll never be able to do much of anything in the way of treatment if it requires hands on. I can give them dewormer by putting it in food. I can treat their sleeping area for fleas and ticks and could probably get away with putting drops on their back.

Jack is a bit of a basket case but a sweetheart. Captain kicks his butt on occasion but neither of them are fixed so that's kind of expected. I have to feed them separate or Jack won't get to eat or if he does, it will be whatever Captain decides to let him have and he'll dump the dish with his paw first. 

I'm half thinking of separating them for good and let Captain be the LGD on his own. Maybe pick up a female GP sometime. Jack can be a pet. Our Pit mix is old so we'll need something up by the house and he is a cute one. 

Captain really wants to show dominance. When I feed him, he'll get in front of me and I either have to walk around or walk through him, nudging him out of the way with my legs. I've had Chow Chows and we have a Pit Bull mix and I've always made sure they know I'm the boss. I can't do that with this dog and that concerns me but, if he was out in the field 24/7/365 with hardly any human interaction, with what little interaction there was being bad, I can sort of understand. 

*So do LGDs and specifically GPs act different than other types of dogs as far as dominance and attitude towards humans?* 

When reading up on GPs, I found that some people prefer them to not want anything to do with humans and will even make sure the food just appears and that they don't see that the human was the one to feed them.

I'm thinking if he's at home with the goats that he might think of me as a threat at that point but we'll see. 

I kind of put the cart before the horse as we won't have goats until fall when everyone's trying to sell them before they start costing $$ in feed. When he meets the goats for the first time, it will be through a fence. He was protecting sheep which are slightly different. Not near as physically active as goats. I'm in the process of clearing for a perimeter fence. It will be electrified high tensile, 4' tall, 6 wire so once the corner posts are in, it goes pretty fast. Clearing is the biggest chore and I'll have that done in 2-3 weeks and then work on corner posts. When we get our tax money, I'll get the wire, electric components and hardware.

I will say, these dogs are good with fence. They're in a pen made with 39" tall field fence and could easily get out but don't seem to want to that badly. I think I'm going with myotonic, specifically bred for meat. They'll be easy to fence in and maybe a little less active than other breeds, so hopefully, close enough to sheep to be accepted by Captain. Myotonic was my plan to begin with.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

You got a couple of mutts, one of whom bites.
I'd get rid of them both.

If you want a real "LGD", buy one from a reputable breeder with a proven bloodline, and raise it from a pup.

You bought someone else's problems.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Return them to the people you got them from if that fails a shelter. Let them determine if they are safe to rehome. No point in taking a chance with your families safety.


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## JohnP (Sep 1, 2010)

They moved and there's no such thing as shelters in rural Midwest. Most people cull. People from nearby small cities drop off their unwanted dogs out here. We see 4-5 every year. 

Just "get rid of them" out here means putting them down, dropping them off on some other gravel road or doing like the previous owners did and put them on the internet and lie your ass off. (On a Sunday just after Mass no less)

The young one's harmless and the older one will be separated from him and us soon. We'll see how he does out there in the field. If he's not worth a damn, he'll be put down. 

Guess I should have simply posted my question and left the story out. I put it in bold but ...

Either of you have Great Pyrenees?


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

LGD should be fine with their family but it's not usual for them to be more stand-off-ish. (the one who won't eat until you move back). If they were raised with sheep, they most likely bonded with them and if the folks who had them before didn't do anything to socialize them to people, I'm not sure you can do it now. I raised Anatolian Shepherds for years. My female would have the pups in the pasture with our goats. I didn't treat them like I would your average family dog, but they were socialized to people and being touched. My goal was to ensure that I gave them the independence they needed to do their job BUT not bite, snip, or growl at humans. There is a reason the folks were selling those dogs. A good LDG is worth their weight. And yes, any dog will attempt to be the alpha over you if they think they can. Your fence might contain them now, but if they can find a way under or over it, they will be able to get out. If you decide to keep them, when you introduce the goats, do it with a fence between them. They need to know that the goats belong before you just put them all together. Good luck


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Pyrs are notorious roamers. I have several friends who have them. More trouble than they are worth.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Pyrs are notorious roamers. I have several friends who have them. More trouble than they are worth.


I have Pyrs they are the best stock dogs i have had. No need for electric fence. They keep the Hogs away from the fences. Good for the Cattle, Pigs, Chickens. They live with the stock and protect the stock. Nothing will come near my stock. They run anything off that comes close to the fence. Best stock dogs i have ever had. I got them as pups and they just took to the stock right away. The little pigs will lay on them while at rest. They are very friendly with me and anyone that comes on the farm. I have had all breeds of stock dogs and these are the best.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

101pigs said:


> I got them as pups


There's the main difference.
You're just lucky about the chickens though.

Breed makes no real difference in how LGD's will react to other animals, especially if they aren't exposed to them at an early age.


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## JohnP (Sep 1, 2010)

hiddensprings said:


> LGD should be fine with their family but it's not usual for them to be more stand-off-ish. (the one who won't eat until you move back). If they were raised with sheep, they most likely bonded with them and if the folks who had them before didn't do anything to socialize them to people, I'm not sure you can do it now. I raised Anatolian Shepherds for years. My female would have the pups in the pasture with our goats. I didn't treat them like I would your average family dog, but they were socialized to people and being touched. My goal was to ensure that I gave them the independence they needed to do their job BUT not bite, snip, or growl at humans. There is a reason the folks were selling those dogs. A good LDG is worth their weight. And yes, any dog will attempt to be the alpha over you if they think they can. Your fence might contain them now, but if they can find a way under or over it, they will be able to get out. If you decide to keep them, when you introduce the goats, do it with a fence between them. They need to know that the goats belong before you just put them all together. Good luck


I have actually petted him while he was eating but he got majorly stressed, started whining a little while he ate as fast as caninely possible. Not sure if he thought I was going to take away the food or what so I won't do that any more. 
That is my plan, to introduce them through a fence. I'm not concerned about them being friendly with the family and never thought they would be pets. We spent that first day or two with them to attempt to let them know that we weren't out to harm them. 
They could step right over that fence and if they ever catch a whiff of a female dog in heat, I'm quite sure they would try. The 7-8000 volts on the future perimeter fence might deter them, might not. I'll have to ask around and see if there's any vets that will neuter on site. There might be out here in cattle country. 



Alice In TX/MO said:


> Pyrs are notorious roamers. I have several friends who have them. More trouble than they are worth.


Yeah, we have a pair of them a few miles away that are always out roaming. Of course the owner doesn't have a real fence. Just some old broken down, three strand, rusty, barbed wire field fence. We'll see what happens. 



101pigs said:


> I have Pyrs they are the best stock dogs i have had. No need for electric fence. They keep the Hogs away from the fences. Good for the Cattle, Pigs, Chickens. They live with the stock and protect the stock. Nothing will come near my stock. They run anything off that comes close to the fence. Best stock dogs i have ever had. I got them as pups and they just took to the stock right away. The little pigs will lay on them while at rest. They are very friendly with me and anyone that comes on the farm. I have had all breeds of stock dogs and these are the best.


Too bad these dogs had a bad start. The GP will probably never be that friendly with people but I'm ok with that. We're not going to live in the pasture, they are or he is. My concern now is that he'll try to protect the flock from me. Fencing them separately but next to each other for a while should help that. All depends, observe and adjust accordingly.
-----------------------------------------
Hindsight, I should have driven away as soon as I saw that younger dog out of the cage and he obviously wasn't GP while the guy stood there and said he was. By that time, I had said yes but I should have turned around and said hell no. At that point, maybe in the back of my mind, I just wanted to get the poor dog out of there so I think it did turn into a bit of a rescue. 

Oh well, it is what it is and my options are limited. Put him/them down, dump them somewhere, lie my ass off and tell someone how awesome they are or give them a chance. 
I think the young one needs some tlc so he'll probably stay up by the house and I'll put the older one with the goats if he seems alright through the fence. If he ends up going after a goat, he's of no use for anything and his time will be done real quick. 

I'm able to push on past him again when he gets in front of me so I'm not too worried any more. I'm just not going to pull him out from under a trailer by the fur on his back any more. We're learning each others limits I guess. 
He growls at the wife but she talks to him with hate in her voice. He probably associates that voice with his fear of sticks, 2x4s, pipe etc. I'll have to work on their relationship. 

I never mentioned anything about paying for them but some people have assumed that and probably some other things.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

If you can't handle the dogs how do you get their rabies and other shots done?


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## oceantoad (May 21, 2009)

I paid 90 or 95 bucks to sedate my Anatolian and 5/8 Anatolian 3/8 GP to get them to a vet when they got hold of a porcupine. Kind of worked, one was good and one was not. Was able to get them to the vet, but had a wrist broken in two places. Vet says to trailer goats and dogs together to his office, but no way with mine. I can handle them. But getting them through the gate is impossible. If they were great dogs could maybe see knocking them out every year, but not cost effective. My GPs have all been friendly with people, my Anatolians all head for the fence line or trees. Think you might have your work cut out for you, if it works at all.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Ok it sounds as though you're going to make the best out of a bad situation. Here are my suggestions:

Regarding the one you will be using as an LGD: Take a walk around the animals that dog will be guarding as often as possible so that dog will know you belong around them. Sit down at times maybe with a piece of meat in hand as an enticement; just do not offer it to the dog or even attempt to get him to come to you. Just let the dog smell you have the meat. When you leave the area simply leave the meat where you had been sitting so the dog can still smell your presence when he goes later to check out the smell of that left meat. (The idea behind all this is to let the dog learn you are different from the humans he knew before, i.e. that you are not trying to trap him and actually want nothing from him. Just let the dog learn who you are BEFORE you ask him to do anything.)

If you actually do have to put that dog down and want an LGD for your place, save your money and do your research so you get a puppy that has had actual experience from its own parents. Also, even LGDs need to see a vet on occasions; and they need some socializing with humans for this reason.


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## JohnP (Sep 1, 2010)

I tend to try and fix things as opposed to throwing them away, even with inanimate objects.

And I misspoke. I think Jack is at least part Komondor, not Old English Sheep dog, though they look similar at 1 yo. He seems really eager to guard like Captain and I don't know if an OES would be like that. Who knows. I'll know if he's Komondor if he gets older and develops dredlocks/cords. Supposedly they're not related but Jack could still be part GP. Big white dogs is all I can really be sure of.

Captain and I are making amends and are not nervous around each other now. I've been more friendly to him. After having done some reading about how some people don't want a GP bonding with any human, thinking that they a protect the livestock better, I was trying to remain distant so to speak. I'm petting him more and he's giving me those "let's be friends" stretches more. He's also not trying to block my path like he was. I think it will work out. I'm just not used to such a proud unsocialized dog and he's not used to good human interaction.

Need to get them some collars which they've probably never had and then take Captain for walks around the property line and hope he doesn't chase something and pull my arm off. I've looped a leash on him and walked him to the end of the driveway before but the leash won't relax if/after he pulls and is like a choker that doesn't unchoke so I only went a few hundred feet and turned around. He was really good on the leash though. I put one on Jack to bring him into the pen when they first got here and he finally got out of the truck after 4 hrs, and he didn't like being restrained and yelped like I was killing him. That was actually a stiff rope with a loop in one end so it wouldn't have cinched up and stayed. In fact it fell off pretty quickly when I let him go. I couldn't stand him yelping any more and wasn't going to reach down to his neck as distressed as he was so I just let go. I didn't want to leave the lead on him but he shook it right off in less than 30 seconds. I didn't realize it at the time but I think it was the fact that he couldn't get away from this human that really bothered him. Once the perimeter fence is up, I'll put Captain out there and then I can work on Jack's confidence/trust issues and see if I can get a collar and then a leash on him after he's more relaxed about being close to a human. I haven't done any one on one time with them. He's eager to be like Captain it seems so he'll probably be out in the field at some point. Once they're good on a leash, I'll see about getting them into the back of a truck, tethered of course and one at a time and go visiting. Then I'll be able to take them to a vet. 

I'll have to try and remember to come back with an update in 6 months or a year or so. With some work and maybe some luck, I'll come back and post pics of goat kids crawling all over/standing on the dogs.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You have a big heart. The dogs are blessed to have been rescued by you.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

JohnP said:


> Picked up a couple of LGDs from CL a few months back. The ad and person we got them from said they were both GPs but obviously one is not.
> They were with sheep but hopefully will be ok with goats andppose I should get a female GP and name her Sparrow?
> 
> Their personalities;
> ...


Did you get them from someone on here? I got a female from a lady here several years back. It was an Anatolian/GP mix. She was a really good dog, but really "hard" compared to GPs. She was wonderful with kids, even "stranger" kids, but did not like stranger adults so much. I was afraid she would kill somebody if she didn't feel they were "safe" so to speak. She did kill "strange" cats and every sort of animal like possums, skunks, raccoons, etc. We no longer have her. We were afraid she would hurt a stranger who came into her territory, so we gave her to an amish couple south of here. She was a good dog though. Anatolians are really easy dogs to keep in the house unlike GP. They housebreak themselves. So being a housepet is an option for them unless you have alot of people in and out.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

I read only the first post.
first of all, the off breed might have some 
New Foundland blood..
second, the people who do not have any contact with their dogs usually are far off the beaten track and the dogs are left to their own care. often those dogs will eat the sheeps' dung if the food is not available.
if you have close neighbors, you should socialize the dogs. you do not need a lawsuit if someone gets bit.
My Maremma LGD are allowed to come into my house. they are perfect guests. 
I can touch and pull on them anywhere on their body..
If you do not establish who is boss, you are in for a long hard ride..
If one of my dogs would ever growl at any child, it would not live to see the sun go down..
(sorry to any of you bleeding hearts) 
but that is my policy.
I was offered a 3 year old female. the guy who owned it said that she would bite him if he tried to even load her into his car.
I turned her down. A month later a man I know called me wanting to buy a puppy to keep his new dog company. He had owned her for 8 days and she had bitten him 7 times. I asked, is her name Angel?
yup , same dog. I did not sell him a puppy. I told him when he put that dog down I would sell him a pup. never heard from him again. the dog probably ate him, IDK ..
........jiminwisc...........


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## JohnP (Sep 1, 2010)

Got them from one of the least reliable places, craigslist. We've got a tiny house and there's no room for them to even walk around in here without knocking things over. Our half Pit Bull, Mollie lives in the house when it's below 45 degrees. The dogs have been fine with Mollie though they pay too much attention to her sometimes since they're intact. We've got two male cats, also intact and yesterday I saw one in the pen(I call him a dog because he acts like one) and Jack was walking behind him sniffing, possibly trying to figure out what it was. No chase though. I just now brought Mollie out to do her morning thing and went ahead and stayed in there and let the boys sniff me over and let Mollie take a dump in peace. Captain was going to follow Mollie so I just sad his name and said leave her alone, com here and he came over. Talked to them and petted them. When Mollie was done, I let her back in, turned around to latch the gate and the boys were up in the corner of the pen seeming a little too excited about one of our cats trotting out of the woods so I told them no, just a stern voice, not yelling and they turned right away from the cat and walked back to me. The other cat was right near me, a few feet from the gate, so I picked him up and petted him til he purred which took about one second and told the dogs nicely that the cats are our pets. They paid attention, maybe listened and then went about their business. 

I think things will work out. I had read about the hands off approach to LGDs and knew they came from that sort of setting so I thought it would be best to continue but they're responding real well to a more positive/interactive approach, being petted and called good boys etc. I carried my splitting axe into the pen a while ago to bust through the ice in their water tank and they didn't freak out that I was carrying something. I had already talked to them and petted them earlier. 

I've had Captain tethered a couple of times and he did real well with it. Didn't try to pull or walk his way out of it, thereby getting tangled. Just laid down under the back of the truck for shade as it was hot at the time. I think I'll start taking him for a walk, then tethering him while I spend an hour with Jack, just hanging out at first and then try putting a rope around his neck, just doubled, not looped so if he freaks, I can let go of one end and it will be off. Might just lay it across his neck first while I pet him and talk to him. Baby steps. I'm not a real big believer in training by treats but I'll probably give them a little something now and then.


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## JohnP (Sep 1, 2010)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> You have a big heart. The dogs are blessed to have been rescued by you.


Thanks but on the other hand, I have no problem with offing one and have done so before with a couple of drop offs that I took in that didn't work out. Didn't really bother me. One was a failed **** dog from what I later learned and he was skinny and it was snowing when he showed up. Had him for about a year and tried every wormer but he never did put much of any weight on and Mollie started losing weight and I couldn't have that. I'm not one to spend big money with a vet, especially for a stray, so he had to go. Mollie gained her weight right back so I don't know what it was. That year was probably the best year of his life though. He was the first dog Mollie ever put up with. She'd never been socialized with other animals at all. This morning she had a cat sniffing her butt while she was eating. I might just shed some tears when her time's up. We've had her for close to ten years and she was four when we got her. Been with us through thick and thin and with that Pit Bull snarl, growl and baring of teeth, we've felt safer having her around. Gonna need a replacement for her but I don't want a full pit. Whatever it is, it will have to be a puppy so I can raise it to my liking.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

You said there are no Animal Shelters in your area. You are wrong. It is you. Accepting a couple unusable dogs is the general duty of an Animal Shelter. Congratulations.

Managing a single trained LGD takes a good degree of knowledge and commitment. You have neither. Petting a new, unsocial dog while he's eating is a dangerous thing to attempt and you should have known better.

Accepting a pair of intact mutts and entertaining thoughts of adding an intact female should frost your cake of poor judgment.

You don't need a LGD now. When you get goats, I doubt you'll need one then either. You might want to wait for the grim reaper to silence your aged Pitt Bull, before you take on the steep learning curve of raising goats. But, I guess, if you use the same judgment selecting goats as LGD, it won't much matter. A shotgun makes a better guard dog than any Pitt, IMHO.


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## JohnP (Sep 1, 2010)




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## Pamology (Jan 4, 2019)

JohnP said:


> Picked up a couple of LGDs from CL a few months back. The ad and person we got them from said they were both GPs but obviously one is not. He looks to be at least part Old English Sheep dog which of course they haven't been used for in decades. (curse you Border Collies)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These dogs don't belong to a home with kids and livestock. Good LGD's are socialized to people and livestock. Don''t be patient at the risk of your family. Remove the dogs.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

Best of Luck to you @JohnP .
Early days yet(I think)....a few months will tell more.
Let us know how it goes along, good or bad.


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## JohnP (Sep 1, 2010)

aart said:


> Best of Luck to you @JohnP .
> Early days yet(I think)....a few months will tell more.
> Let us know how it goes along, good or bad.


Well after just a couple of days of going in there when I let Mollie in to do her business, petting the big white dogs, calling them by their name, talking to them in general, especially Captain, he's gone through a major change. This morning I pet them, talked to them, stopped and Captain bounced around in a circle like a puppy, came back and sat right next to me, so while petting him, I said; You know how to sit? Good boy. He ran around again, came back and sat again and pawed my leg for more attention. He likes his chin scratched. Started scratching his chest but that put my face kinda close to his mouth and made me nervous so I stopped because I didn't want him to sense that. Looked out there a little while ago and he was standing with his head held high, ears perky yet flopped over half way up. He actually looked kinda cute and definitely happy for the first time. He's always had that head kinda low, ears down. I stuck my head out the door and said hi and he he did the stretch thing and wagged his tail more than I'd ever seen. Quite a transformation.

I just thought his personality it was a him being a serious LGD kind of thing. That's how he acted when we went to pick them up. He didn't pay any attention to the previous owner really. Acts like a different dog now.

I think they were both just scared and waiting for their next beating. I'd put a dog down before beating it but when I can walk across the yard with a length of pipe and the both cower, turn around and slink away, I know they've been beat. Apart from that, I think they were treated like livestock. Catch them, do what you have to do, like worming, let go and get out of the way.

Jack is still pretty much the same, skittish, but I'm going to have to work with him one on one. He might come around a little bit by observing Captain, who knows.


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## oceantoad (May 21, 2009)

JohnP,
Hope things continue to go well for you. Good to see that you are taking the time to work with the two.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

I believe it takes a couple-few months for them to get comfortable in their new surroundings,
and _then_ their true natures emerge.
Had a foster dog that I really wanted to adopt, but he got worse and worse the more comfortable he got....2 month mark convinced me he wasn't a good fit here.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

aart said:


> I believe it takes a couple-few months for them to get comfortable in their new surroundings,
> and _then_ their true natures emerge.
> Had a foster dog that I really wanted to adopt, but he got worse and worse the more comfortable he got....2 month mark convinced me he wasn't a good fit here.


I call that the "Honeymoon Effect". Not just dogs.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

haypoint said:


> I call that the "Honeymoon Effect". Not just dogs.


That's what I called it too...and yes any animal including humans, haha!
The rescue/shelter people were pushing me _hard_ to commit within a week or two and got real mad when I refused,
insisted that I field other adopters ad responses and arrange meet appointments....luckily the first one took him.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

aart said:


> That's what I called it too...and yes any animal including humans, haha!
> The rescue/shelter people were pushing me _hard_ to commit within a week or two and got real mad when I refused,
> insisted that I field other adopters ad responses and arrange meet appointments....luckily the first one took him.


For a number of years, I inspected Animal Shelters for the State, mostly in and around Detroit. I think some dogs go sort of shelter crazy. Most times the shelter is a noisy collection of bouncing dogs. No way would most people adopt a yapping pooch. But after a few days, some return to "normal". Some of the better shelters offer a quiet room to evaluate a dog.

When I worked in a prison, I observed the same thing. Upon arrival from another prison, inmates generally behaved well the first week. But then the honeymoon was over and they returned to their PITA norm.

There are many different breeds selected over hundreds of generations for some very specific purposes. It often requires the owner understand those deep seated instincts and the ability to capitalize on those instinctual abilities.

I loved my Border Collie. But I think most people should never own one. Just asking for trouble and an unhappy dog. Same for the unique instincts of a LGD.

There are strains of dog fighting Pit Bulls and the various fighting breeds that are unsuitable as pets. They make poor guard dogs and, while safe around adults, can attack other dogs or children, without provocation.

It makes no sense to me for a homestead to own a mismatched collection of dog breeds.

Then the problems of odd ball poorly thought out cross breeds. I know of a dog at an animal shelter that was unadoptable. He was a cross between a Jack Russell and a Aust. Healer. Chased and bit everything. Cross breeds are not a selection of the best characteristics of both breeds.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

I bred and raised Maremma LGD for many years.
the idea of not socializing them or petting them is pure BS.. I had two pairs of breeders. they were very happy to be petted, but they never neglected their duties of guarding whatever we were raising..
One of my males never was petted by any body but me, my wife and whomever was living in this house.
He was shy with strangers, but he never made any attempt to attack or bite. I could take him to the vet and he just sat and minded his own business.
then I would hand the leash to the vet's assistant and he followed her with no problem.
Once at the vets, a cocky guy with a pit bull was across the room from me. his dog was having a real problem behaving. my dog just ignored the pit bull.
the guy made some remark that it was a good thing his dog was on a leash. I just said, yes it is, I would hate to see him get hurt..


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

If you have Facebook, I highly recommend Farei Kennels LGD Training & Education. Group link is here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1828786214072789/


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## Ridgetop (Feb 11, 2019)

30 years ago people believed that you should take the livestock guardian dog and toss him in the field and never pay any attention to him except to feed him. This is what we were told when we got our first LGD. Luckily our children ignored that and the dog was gentle with people. We had a number of Pyrenees. They were nice dog and we had no losses, but they would not stay in the fences with the livestock. Pyrs have a reputation for roaming but I believe that they actually decide where they want their protection boundaries to be and guard that much area accordingly. In our case it was the 100 acres of open land all around us. During kidding season one would stay in the barn while the other would patrol the field. We have Anatolians now. They are completely different. They stay with the sheep.

Back to the old "toss the dog out in the field attitude", everyone knows now that you have to spend time with your LGD and socialize it. That doesn't mean to make it a house dog. It means to love it, pet it, train it, and let it be affectionate with you. You need to be able to handle your LGD in an emergency. During the brush fires last year, we had to evacuate. Without training we would not have been able to get the dogs loaded up and out before the fire came in. The firefighters would not have been able to come onto our property and save our house and barns since the dogs would have attacked them. It is incredibly necessary that you work with and train these dogs if you decide to keep them. That said, if your dog continues to bite you or go after your wife or kids, you need to put it down. A bullet to the dog is better than a torn up or dead wife or child.

If the dogs were actually living with sheep and guarding them when you got them, they will learn to get along with the goats. Are you sure the dogs were in with the sheep or did the guy just put them in there so you would think they were LGDs? These dog are not purebred Great Pyrs. I don't think the hairy one is a Komondorok either. That breed is not very common. These dogs might be part GP, but neither one really looks like a GP. You will have to wait and see if they work with the livestock. I don't like cross breeds since you never know which parent they will take after. In the mean and came in during the daytime, if you can socialize them to be good all around ranch dogs, you have done well. From the behavior you have described it sounds like they were mistreated as well as ignored. 

Good livestock guardians are worth their weight in gold. The one year we were without an LGD we lost $3500.00 in daylight sheep kills - we locked the sheep in the barn at night but the coyotes figured out we were without an lgd and came in during the day. Do not worry about the dogs bonding to you, they will guard just as well or better. On a small homestead the dogs will bond to the livestock, the kids, and you. We put our small flock of sheep in the barn at night and let our 3 Anatolians come into the house. They are quiet and well behaved in the house and after an hour or so, ask to go back out to patrol. If predators are close they refuse to come in, but remain on patrol.


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## JohnP (Sep 1, 2010)

Ridgetop said:


> 30 years ago people believed that you should take the livestock guardian dog and toss him in the field and never pay any attention to him except to feed him. That doesn't mean to make it a house dog. It means to love it, pet it, train it, and let it be affectionate with you. You need to be able to handle your LGD in an emergency.
> 
> If the dogs were actually living with sheep and guarding them when you got them, they will learn to get along with the goats. Are you sure the dogs were in with the sheep or did the guy just put them in there so you would think they were LGDs? These dog are not purebred Great Pyrs. I don't think the hairy one is a Komondorok either. That breed is not very common. These dogs might be part GP, but neither one really looks like a GP. You will have to wait and see if they work with the livestock.


After looking at more pics and reading about breeds, I think the young one might be part Old English Sheepdog. Of course they haven't been used for that purpose for many generations. Mostly pets now.

They were in the barn when we got them. The guy we got them from, got them from someone else. Got them from two different places. After spending more time with them, especially the older one as he has a longer history, I believe he once had a good life and then the guy we got them from did the, toss em in the field and forget them' thing. One day I was feeling brave and went up, squatted down and gave them both a big ole hug. After that they went into major happy play mode. They play together a lot now as opposed to the older one beating the younger one up constantly. I think he realizes he's got the good life again. Still seems a little bit wary but I think that'll wear off in time. Picked up a collar for him and will start walking him around the perimeter once the weather gets better.

As far as how they'll act with goats, we'll see. Got a few more trees to cut down for the perimeter fence and I'll be ready to start putting in posts and string high tensile wire. Then we can get goats. Our tax refund(socialist gift money) is pretty good this year so this stuff will happen soon.


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## oceantoad (May 21, 2009)

JohnP,
Keep working them and the best of luck to you and the furballs.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

Glad to hear an update John..and that you are still working it out.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 11, 2019)

They are getting used to you which is good. How are they around your children and wife? are they still unfriendly to them? If the dogs bond only to you but not other family members, they could still pose a threat to your wife and kids. You will need bond them to other family members. Watch their behavior and keep us informed.


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## JohnP (Sep 1, 2010)

Being winter, we're pretty well cooped up in the house so there's not a whole lot going on. The house and yard is not going to be inside the perimeter fence and I'll be the one dealing with the goats and dogs.

Once I've bonded with the older one, Captain, a little better, I'll bring the family into the fold. Probably bring him into the house to check out our 'den' as they tend to be respectful and cautious under those circumstances. He'll be able to smell that the four of us live here and sense that I'm the head dog in here. He'll be on the leash when I do so. 

My son is autistic and doesn't understand the whole social order thing or aggression with people or dogs and dislikes dogs so there's never going to be any bonding there. 

We had a few dairy goats several years ago and the kids got to see the kids being born and I'm pretty sure my son could care less for that experience again. Nothing bad, just disinterest. My wife and daughter of course will want to see one minute old goats but that's not going to happen the first time around. I need to see how Captain is going to handle me being around that situation. I know they can be protective of the newborns. 

Proceed with caution is all I can do but right now, any time I spend outdoors is shuffling firewood around or out there working on the fence line. Once Spring comes, the kids and I will be out there working in the yard and if the dogs bark at the kids, I'll introduce them and treats will probably be involved. I've got the dog pen cross fenced but need to put another gate in one half and put keep them separate by day and put them together at night. I've had them separated at night before and they bark twice as much. LOL That way I can separate the dogs by day and bring a family member in with me to feed one dog. I'm not going to try and deal with two dogs that weigh as much as me AND have a kid or my wife in there. Regardless, not much is going to happen until winter's over, aside from me and the dogs interacting.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

be careful how you do the treats.
If the dog barks at your family, and you give it a treat to shut it up, or whatever, you just taught it to bark at the family.
from what you just typed, I detect some fear of your dogs. you are not Alpha if you are fearful.
I think you are over thinking this dog thing.
it is OK to be cautious. but don't forget who should be in charge.
designate a time for treats. we call it happy hour.
the dogs are fed small pieces of beggin strips by hand.
limit of 3 strips each. our dogs sit for their treats.
and each one waits it's turn for the hand out..
let members of the household hand out the treats.
then no more treats until next day at happy hour.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 11, 2019)

We have happy hour after the sheep are shut in the barn at night. The dogs are allowed to come into the family room, get a treat or large bone and spend several hours with us before telling us they want to go back out to patrol. We all enjoy it and it is surprising how quiet the large (125 & 140 lbs.) are in the house. Even the puppy (50 lbs.) settles down on the run and chews her bone. It is a good time to teach them to be relaxed and calm with family.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

we are down to just our old female Maremma.
It always amazed me how docile and quiet the dogs were while in the house. No special training needed.
they would hit the door at a dead run and immediately come to a calm walk inside the house. 
none of them ever attempted to take any food off of the table. Once one did and I scolded her severely . she never did that again.. You never have to even slap one of these dogs. a stern scolding voice is enough to make them feel ashamed..
we used to sell puppies for a few years. but now our female is "geriatric" according to the vet. so we sold our young male to a sheep farmer in Minn..
......jiminwisc......


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## Ridgetop (Feb 11, 2019)

I used to have other large house dogs and they were completely obedience trained. In spite of that, they were less quiet in the house than my Anatolians that I have never even house trained! Amazing dogs. They seem to know that they need to be quiet inside just like when they are around the sheep.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 11, 2019)

[email protected] said:


> You never have to even slap one of these dogs. a stern scolding voice is enough to make them feel ashamed..



And you are so right, even our very dominant male Anatolian hates a scolding more than anything. Never raise a hand to him, when he needs severe discipline which is rare, I take his head between my hands, stare at him, and growl at him while scolding. Of course, I have done other guardian training with him to teach him "back off", etc. but never had to do any in house training. Our female Anatolian, dominant in her own right, is very sensitive to any harsh words. Really never need to scold her though.


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