# So what changed?



## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

In the 1950's and 1960's (adjusted for population growth) there were just as many people with guns as there are today, yet there were no mass shootings like there are today.

*So what changed?*

There are more gun laws now than there were then - so more gun laws did NOT make us safer.

With the approval of a judge, people could be held for 3 days for mental health exam, and if determined to be a danger to themselves or others, could be involuntarily committed.

News organizations were not "profit centers". News organizations actually reported the news and not opinion and they did not sensationalize events to draw readers/viewers.

Very few children were put on mind altering drugs.

Gun safety was taught in some high schools and also in every summer camp I went to as a teen.

There was no "social media"

Kids had chores to do.

There were no shoot'em up kill'em all video games.

Most mothers were stay at home mothers, many grandparents lived in the same home or nearby.

Going to Church/belief in God was normal

Parents and grandparents and even neighbors taught kids what was acceptable behavior and what was not.


----------



## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Yep


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

None of those trends are reversing. If anything they are speeding up, and being compounded by new changes, changes not yet imagined.

Less belief in God
Number one money maker on the web, porn.
Most exciting use of robots, sex.
More unwed mothers.
Growing income disparity.
Work ethic displaced by government support
Kim Kardashian
Hollywood and celebrity influence
Deconstruction of marriage
Normalization of deviant sex
Blurring national boundaries
Longer life
Boundless abortion
Extraordinary high cost of health care
Extraordinary incarceration
Multiculturalism
Exaggerated divisiveness
Devaluing education
Rapid technological changes
Workplace displacement
Skill devaluation

What did I miss?


----------



## TroyT (Jun 24, 2008)

When I was in high school I would go deer hunting before and after school, and bring my rifle to school with me. Sure I would leave it in the car, but it was at school. I would walk the halls with a gutting knife on my belt. No one died, and no cared, it was just the way things were then.

The overwhelming number of mass killings involve men. Generally young men. Why? There has been a change in societal norms over the past few decades. Personally I think the break down of the American family is the leading cause. Men are no longer required in families. Men are looked at by society as incompetent disposable accessories. Look at the TV commercials, men are almost always portrayed as incompetent, weak willed morons. Young men are being raised by single women more and more often. Bus drivers don't train airline pilots for a reason. It's the same thing with women raising boys into men. So it's no wonder that substantial number of young men don't know how to function in the world. Of that number, a few are so messed up that the only thing they have left in their lives is to go out in a blaze of glory...


----------



## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)




----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mnn2501 said:


> In the 1950's and 1960's (adjusted for population growth) there were just as many people with guns as there are today, yet there were no mass shootings like there are today.
> 
> *So what changed?*
> 
> ...


 If it wasn't taught to you, you aren't going to teach it to your children. But to generalize? No, the majority of children are taught right from wrong.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> If it wasn't taught to you, you aren't going to teach it to your children. But to generalize? No, the majority of children are taught right from wrong.


Maybe the majority were, maybe.

That leaves too many that were not.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Maybe the majority were, maybe.
> 
> That leaves too many that were not.


There have always been bad people in the world, nothing is going to change that. Bad people can't be forced not to have children.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

mnn2501 said:


> In the 1950's and 1960's (adjusted for population growth) there were just as many people with guns as there are today, yet there were no mass shootings like there are today.
> 
> *So what changed?*
> 
> ...


Plus if you acted up at the neighbors or your friends house their parents could crack you a good one.
Call child abuse?
Worse beating.
At school?
Nope, they already called home an the old man was there waiting for you.
Worse?
He didn't get home till about 5 or 6 and you knew what was coming and had to wait for the punishment.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I don't know what the gun laws in the 50s and 60s were.


You don't what they are now either.



> Irish Pixie said: ↑
> If it wasn't taught to you, you aren't going to teach it to your children. But to generalize? No, the majority of children are taught right from wrong.


And yet some still misbehave.

But we shouldn't punish everyone due to the acts of a minute minority.
That would just be stupid.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

The question is why the big cultural shift?

Is it just a matter of modernization or is a group of people trying (and succeeding) to engineer the collapse of the ideals of western democracies?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> There have always been bad people in the world, nothing is going to change that. Bad people can't be forced not to have children.


Can they be forced to not shoot people?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> The question is why the big cultural shift?
> 
> Is it just a matter of modernization or is a group of people trying (and succeeding) to engineer the collapse of the ideals of western democracies?


Atrophy


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

HDRider said:


> Atrophy


Of what?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> Of what?


America


----------



## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> There have always been bad people in the world, nothing is going to change that. Bad people can't be forced not to have children.


So you are saying nothing can be done to prevent mass shootings?


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

There has been a huge shift in how we treat children. Everything is more politically correct and you can't do or say anything that might hurt someone's feelings no matter how terrible they act. Teachers aren't allowed to physically separate fighting children, God forbid that they give one a hug of sympathy or support. You can't kick them out of school or suspend them for violent or harassing behavior yet kids get kicked out for having the name "Hunter" or biting a piece of pizza or a poptart into someone's twisted imagination of a gun.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Bad people can't be forced not to have children.


They can be if they are locked up somewhere.
Punishing those who have done nothing wrong helps no one at all.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> There have always been bad people in the world, nothing is going to change that. Bad people can't be forced not to have children.


Many of those bad people wouldn't have been allowed to procreate in days gone by. They had a habit of being taken out of the gene pool. Either by our justice system or by kinfolk of their victims.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

This is the outstanding liberal way.
And I quote Tiffany Lomosi a regional supervisor for Missouri probation and parole.
"What we hope to achieve in this is that people are successful".
That's great except how they want to achieve this.
If you behave...you get free gift cards and gas cards.
No I'm not kidding.
Screw up all you want, don't report, do dope, and they won't put you in jail.
It's the new model she says.
We're talking about those that don't feel they have any value...nobody cares if they do something positive she goes on to say...
Plain crazy wacko coddling liberal talk.


----------



## jen32245 (Jun 29, 2019)

mnn2501 said:


> In the 1950's and 1960's (adjusted for population growth) there were just as many people with guns as there are today, yet there were no mass shootings like there are today.
> 
> *So what changed?*
> 
> ...


It's just a matter of time that they will try to remove all of our law abiding rights to own gun's. They can't control us if we have them. I agree 100% about mental health and all these drugs the dr's push on everyone. Seems theirs a drug for everything little thing now. It's pretty disturbing. Nature provides this for us already.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

What has changed? More and more people are refusing to be responsible for themselves.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Danaus29 said:


> There has been a huge shift in how we treat children. Everything is more politically correct and you can't do or say anything that might hurt someone's feelings no matter how terrible they act. Teachers aren't allowed to physically separate fighting children, God forbid that they give one a hug of sympathy or support. You can't kick them out of school or suspend them for violent or harassing behavior yet kids get kicked out for having the name "Hunter" or biting a piece of pizza or a poptart into someone's twisted imagination of a gun.


But why the change? Cultural changes of this magnitude typically take tens if not hundreds of years.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> What has changed? More and more people are refusing to be responsible for themselves.


But why is it happening and why are they now allowed to get away with it?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mnn2501 said:


> So you are saying nothing can be done to prevent mass shootings?


This is what I said, "There have always been bad people in the world, nothing is going to change that. Bad people can't be forced not to have children."


----------



## happy hermits (Jan 2, 2018)

My grandfather always said stupid people make stupid little people. It seems that when I was growing up we were taught more respect.


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

My take is more single parent homes in suburbs and less area for the masses to hunt so gun saftey is not taught to young people, by a mother nor a week end dad who doesn't hunt.

Then there is the both parents working one or more jobs who don't have time for the kids they wanted. Dump then at some sporting venue.

Young people not accepted to a clic who want to make a name for them selvers for how ever long and get that for some days after they commit a mass shooting. Doesn't matter if they are around aftwards but the world will know there name.

Web sites/forums where the young skin heads keep each other pumped up and full of hate.

Judges who let the young get away with other lesser crimes so think they could possiabley get away with a mass shooting.

 Al


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> There have always been bad people in the world, nothing is going to change that. Bad people can't be forced not to have children.


So what changed?


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Kids aren't taught to deal with life's little disappointments anymore.
Everybody gets a trophy, everybody passes 2nd grade, everybody is special.
Losing is as important as winning, it teaches us to deal with failure and disappointment.
Kids today are being denied that part of growing up, so when they get older and things don't go their way, they lash out.
The media spends days talking about mass shootings, who to blame, politicizing them, using them for political agendas, so the kid who doesn't quite fit in and has never learned how thinks "I can be somebody if I just kill a few people"
It's not just one thing that changed, it's a combination, and we are raising new generations of killers.
But by all means, let's blame the gun makers, Trunmp and the NRA


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

Change is inevitable. Difficult to watch in some cases, but certain to occur.

Have you ever heard the analogy of how a seed has to completely fall apart to become something new?

humanity is still in a growth stage, so to speak.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> Change is inevitable. Difficult to watch in some cases, but certain to occur.
> 
> Have you ever heard the analogy of how a seed has to completely fall apart to become something new?
> 
> humanity is still in a growth stage, so to speak.


Humanity or human nature today is basically the same as it was 1,000 years ago. There were ~300 million people in the world then. There are almost 8 billion people now.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

HDRider said:


> None of those trends are reversing. If anything they are speeding up, and being compounded by new changes, changes not yet imagined.
> 
> Less belief in God
> Number one money maker on the web, porn.
> ...


Hours in front of TV/computer screen daily
Day care (even good daycare results in conflicting values/rules from early on)
Processed food with little nutritional value
Biological changes from endocrine disrupters that among other things have been steadily reducing the # of sperm in males. Wonder what other effects they have...

But you were accurate on your list.


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

HDRider said:


> Humanity or human nature today is basically the same as it was 1,000 years ago. There were ~300 million people in the world then. There are almost 8 billion people now.



right, things are the same as 1000 years ago. okay.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> What has changed? More and more people are refusing to be responsible for themselves.



And the government and our culture have been encouraging this attitude...


----------



## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

I am scared to see what my childrens generation grows up to be. I am horrified and worried about how I see many of my "peers" raising their children. PARENTS are afraid of upsetting their children or "stunting their mental development". I personally call it lazy parenting. I have a friend who refuses to make her kids clean after themselves, eat anything other then junk, and sometimes they will wear same clothes for a week and she says she's letting them make their own choices. Screw that! The problem with these newer generations is they have been raised to think they are running the show!


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

light rain said:


> And the government and our culture have been encouraging this attitude...


Yeppers. I lay it at fdr's doorstep. He is the fool that started the mess.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> right, *things* are the same as 1000 years ago. okay.


Mentally and physically, *people* haven't changed much in the last 10,000 years.
That's not the same as saying "things" are the same.

The environment is what is different.
Too many rats crammed in the cage


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

So the husband and I went to the outlet malls near San Diego yesterday because he wanted to buy some new shoes. I love my Skechers for comfort, so talked him into trying some and in we go to the largish Skechers store.

It was crowded, back to school shopping. Kids everywhere. I love kids. I especially love me a kid in the early/late toddler stage on up to second grade-ish. However, by the time we left (about an hour), I was ready to start kneecapping kids and parents.

There was one little guy, maybe 5, who was running full speed around the store, he ran into me - full body contact - 3 times. The third time I looked around for his mother (the men were all huddled in the back in the kid free safe zone, couldn't tell which man, if any, he belonged to), who was sitting on a bench, not trying on shoes, just staring at him careening into people with a look of joy and wonder on her face. That continued the entire time we were in the store.

Another little boy, probably on the older end of 3, was walking around the store pulling boxes out of the box stacks, opening them, and then dumping the contents on the floor. For at least half an hour. I have no idea who his parents were, never saw an adult with him. I told him to stop dumping boxes a couple of times, but he just looked at me unconcerned and continued (there were a lot of non-English speakers in the store so I'm not even sure he understood me, benefit of the doubt, but still).

There were a group of 3 girls (10, 8, 6ish was my guess) where were randomly grabbing boxes of shoes and making a fort out of them on at least half of the available seating for trying on shoes, shrieking and screaming at each other the way kids do on a playground. Mom and dad would wander back every so often with another set of shoes for one of them to try on, then add the box to their fort if it didn't fit and wander away looking for more.

Other various kids just screaming and running into people sporadically.

The noise level of the place was that of an elementary school gym class on free-for-all day.

Afterwards, we hit an antique store that was going out of business. During our half hour browse, we had musical stylings of a four year old on a plastic ukulele shrieking the same four notes (singing, I guess?) as she followed her oblivious shopping mother around the store. 

Had to stop at Walmart on the way home, I don't think I need to go into any details, there.

Parenting has definitely changed.


----------



## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

Mish said:


> So the husband and I went to the outlet malls near San Diego yesterday because he wanted to buy some new shoes. I love my Skechers for comfort, so talked him into trying some and in we go to the largish Skechers store.
> 
> It was crowded, back to school shopping. Kids everywhere. I love kids. I especially love me a kid in the early/late toddler stage on up to second grade-ish. However, by the time we left (about an hour), I was ready to start kneecapping kids and parents.
> 
> ...


parents should be ashamed of themselves for letting their kids behave in such manner


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Oregon1986 said:


> parents should be ashamed of themselves for letting their kids behave in such manner


That was running through my head the entire time. The husband wanted to start snatching kids up and whacking them, but I was arguing we should snatch the parents up and whack _them_.

I always made it perfectly clear that my kids were allowed to act more...well, freely...at home, but when we are in public you better keep it ship shape or we're leaving immediately and there are going to be consequences. It was easy and it worked. I don't get what's going on now.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Mish said:


> So the husband and I went to the outlet malls near San Diego yesterday because he wanted to buy some new shoes. I love my Skechers for comfort, so talked him into trying some and in we go to the largish Skechers store.
> 
> It was crowded, back to school shopping. Kids everywhere. I love kids. I especially love me a kid in the early/late toddler stage on up to second grade-ish. However, by the time we left (about an hour), I was ready to start kneecapping kids and parents.
> 
> ...



Nah......those kids were being taught how to behave, that's not the problem in society today.

It's so obvious to some and for others, complete denial.


----------



## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

Mish said:


> That was running through my head the entire time. The husband wanted to start snatching kids up and whacking them, but I was arguing we should snatch the parents up and whack _them_.
> 
> I always made it perfectly clear that my kids were allowed to act more...well, freely...at home, but when we are in public you better keep it ship shape or we're leaving immediately and there are going to be consequences. It was easy and it worked. I don't get what's going on now.


What's going on now is that parents are lazy and don't care anymore. We went to a park recently and some 6 or 7 year old kept pushing my 4 year old down, the parent did nothing. Even after i said something, she just kept playing on her phone.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Mish said:


> That was running through my head the entire time. The husband wanted to start snatching kids up and whacking them, but I was arguing we should snatch the parents up and whack _them_.


In our house, there were always enough whacks for _everybody.
_


> I always made it perfectly clear that my kids were allowed to act more...well, freely...at home, but when we are in public you better keep it ship shape or we're leaving immediately and there are going to be consequences. It was easy and it worked. I don't get what's going on now.


yep.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Oregon1986 said:


> What's going on now is that parents are lazy and don't care anymore. We went to a park recently and some 6 or 7 year old kept pushing my 4 year old down, the parent did nothing. Even after i said something, she just kept playing on her phone.


I'm afraid you're right. We're going to keep getting more of the same self-indulgent entitled, narcissistic behaviors we've been seeing lately, including the violent ones.

I have no idea how you fix that when people don't see what they're doing even when you point it out to them as you did.

I think we're screwed as a society/culture.


----------



## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Years ago, in Wal Mart, lost my boy. He was probably in the 6 - 7 yo range at the time. I went looking and found him in the toy section. There were a number of boys in the aisle playing, seemed like a dozen or more, toys scattered all over the floor. I yelled "Clint" stop that. All but 2 or 3 stopped. Guess there were a lot of boys with the same name. I was the only adult on the aisle at the time. Mine was the only one that received any discipline that I know of, but some of the others ran off.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> In our house, there were always enough whacks for _everybody.
> _
> 
> yep.


And see, I'm even one of the "liberal" parents that doesn't really believe in spanking or whacking. I think I spanked my daughter once, one of those panic spanks you do because she ran out into a busy street when she got out of the car - me: "Oh, I'm so glad you're not dead, let me hit you." I don't think I ever laid hands on either of them after that, I felt like it was the wrong thing to do, for me and them. Not judging others, do what works for you, just the way I felt was right for me to parent.

My kids were just fine without whacks. Because they knew I was drop dead serious when I warned them about consequences, I always followed through. My daughter told me later, when she was an adult, that the reason I didn't have to spank them was because I'm so scary when I'm mad, just looking at them with my mad/disappointed mom gaze made their rear ends tighten up, literally lol


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Somebody said this (I think it was IP) in response to the fact that violent video games didn't exist in the 50's and 60's

"No, you're right. The violence was in cartoons back then. And the acceptability of violence to settle disagreements." 

It got me thinking about another shift in culture. When I was a lad and there was a school yard brawl, the PE coach would often have you strap on boxing gloves and fight it out. Now, any physical altercation from a small tussle on the play ground to a knife fight in the cafeteria are handled the same way, with law enforcement. Perhaps that actually has a little to do with it. We are not given an outlet to release these violent tendencies in a controlled manner. Do they build up until some just snap?


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I think one difference is they are targeting groups instead of dealing with the individuals they feel caused them pain, embarrassment or loss of power. It is true that the internet distances us from personal interactions in many ways. It celebrates things in a group way from friends, likes, reactions to pictures that are not real ( airbrushed and edited) These young people are less grounded in a physical community.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> Somebody said this (I think it was IP) in response to the fact that violent video games didn't exist in the 50's and 60's
> 
> "No, you're right. The violence was in cartoons back then. And the acceptability of violence to settle disagreements."
> 
> It got me thinking about another shift in culture. When I was a lad and there was a school yard brawl, the PE coach would often have you strap on boxing gloves and fight it out. Now, any physical altercation from a small tussle on the play ground to a knife fight in the cafeteria are handled the same way, with law enforcement. Perhaps that actually has a little to do with it. We are not given an outlet to release these violent tendencies in a controlled manner. Do they build up until some just snap?


I don't know. When I was in school any fights would be punished with being taken off the playground (so you lose your fun time) and a call to the parents (who were either going to whop you or punish you in some other way). We didn't get to duke it out in any sort of controlled way, but we learned through the various punishments that that was unacceptable social behavior. If it was real bad or repeated behavior, you got whacked by the principal with his scary paddle board, and the humiliation of everyone knowing you got whacked because it wasn't cool back then, you were bad. (not that I know from first hand experience, I'm an angel  )

I think it's more that there aren't any expectations for behavior. Maybe there are at school, but if it's not an across the board expectation, I think they look at it like the school is being unreasonable because their parents don't expect them to act a certain way, so the expectations must be wrong.

We're just not teaching kids how to function behaviorally in normal society anymore. So we're getting a bunch of maladapted abnormal behaviors and people who just plain have no idea how you're supposed to act around other human beings.


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Try to discipline a kid in the store with a good swift whack on the butt.
You will get a visit from a cop about child abuse. 
When you kid is acting out in a store you sure don't want to claim thre brat as yours either. Would prove youy let the kid run the show at home.

Me I would whack my kids in public, any one say any thing I would tell them they could have them if they wanted them to be brats. I'd tell any cop the same thing. My kids behaved and knew if they didn't they would get a butt warming in the stores parking lot and again at home PLUS.

My daughter attributes her running marathons to me punishing her by making her do laps on our 400 foot drive way.


 Al


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Mish said:


> And see, I'm even one of the "liberal" parents that doesn't really believe in spanking or whacking. I think I spanked my daughter once, one of those panic spanks you do because she ran out into a busy street when she got out of the car - me: "Oh, I'm so glad you're not dead, let me hit you." I don't think I ever laid hands on either of them after that, I felt like it was the wrong thing to do, for me and them. Not judging others, do what works for you, just the way I felt was right for me to parent.
> 
> My kids were just fine without whacks. Because they knew I was drop dead serious when I warned them about consequences, I always followed through. My daughter told me later, when she was an adult, that the reason I didn't have to spank them was because I'm so scary when I'm mad, just looking at them with my mad/disappointed mom gaze made their rear ends tighten up, literally lol


LOl, yeah I only got a few and remembered every one.
All dad had to do is give that look and we straightened right up immediately.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Mish said:


> I don't know. When I was in school any fights would be punished with being taken off the playground (so you lose your fun time) and a call to the parents (who were either going to whop you or punish you in some other way). We didn't get to duke it out in any sort of controlled way, but we learned through the various punishments that that was unacceptable social behavior. If it was real bad or repeated behavior, you got whacked by the principal with his scary paddle board, and the humiliation of everyone knowing you got whacked because it wasn't cool back then, you were bad. (not that I know from first hand experience, I'm an angel  )
> 
> I think it's more that there aren't any expectations for behavior. Maybe there are at school, but if it's not an across the board expectation, I think they look at it like the school is being unreasonable because their parents don't expect them to act a certain way, so the expectations must be wrong.
> 
> We're just not teaching kids how to function behaviorally in normal society anymore. So we're getting a bunch of maladapted abnormal behaviors and people who just plain have no idea how you're supposed to act around other human beings.


Both my and your experiences rarely exist in today's world.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

alleyyooper said:


> Try to discipline a kid in the store with a good swift whack on the butt.
> You will get a visit from a cop about child abuse.
> When you kid is acting out in a store you sure don't want to claim thre brat as yours either. Would prove youy let the kid run the show at home.
> 
> ...


When my youngest son was little, maybe 4 years old, he threw a screeching fit in the grocery store because I wouldn't buy him a certain cereal he wouldn't eat but wanted the prize.
While he had his eyes squeezed shut, I stepped around the corner where he couldn't see me.
He stopped screaming after a bit and I heard: "Daddy?" then "Daddy where are you?".
He started to panic so I walked up to him and he said "Daddy, where'd you go?"
I told him if he did that again, I was going home and leaving him there.
He never did that again.


----------



## TroyT (Jun 24, 2008)

My grandson is a bit of a messed up kid. He is young 6 yo but the hand writing it on the wall and I'm afraid that if the doesn't get straitened out, I will be reading about him in the news when he gets older. Not to long ago we were out in the back pasture and I told him not touch the electric fence.... He looked at me and started to reach for the fence. His mother rushed to stop him. I stopped her before she could reach him. It was a learning experience for him. He hasn't touched the fence since. Now if I tell him that something will hurt him, he believes me. Pain is a wonderful teacher, it's not nice, but it's remembered.

If someone tells you that people are generally good, they are diluted. If you want to see human nature, look at a very young child. They are selfish, aggressive, will take what they want and not care what the other child wants. That's human nature... Parents and society is what makes people "generally good". Far too many parents have checked out, and society has determined that everyone is a victim and it's always someone else's fault.

Want to fix kids....

The adults make the rules at home and in public, enforce them, black and white. Be consistent.

Use as little force/pressure as possible but as much is necessary to get the point across. 

Make the right things easy and the wrong things hard.
Don't confuse "I don't understand" with "I'm not going to..." If they are trying, they are learning!
Keep anger out of discipline. Be the adult in the room.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Oregon1986 said:


> I am scared to see what my childrens generation grows up to be. I am horrified and worried about how I see many of my "peers" raising their children. PARENTS are afraid of upsetting their children or "stunting their mental development". I personally call it lazy parenting. I have a friend who refuses to make her kids clean after themselves, eat anything other then junk, and sometimes they will wear same clothes for a week and she says she's letting them make their own choices. Screw that! The problem with these newer generations is they have been raised to think they are running the show!


Well hope she is ready to sleep in the bed that SHE made.

She will probaby be washing their clothes when they are in their 30's and putting a roof over their heads...


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

TroyT said:


> My grandson is a bit of a messed up kid. He is young 6 yo but the hand writing it on the wall and I'm afraid that if the doesn't get straitened out, I will be reading about him in the news when he gets older. Not to long ago we were out in the back pasture and I told him not touch the electric fence.... He looked at me and started to reach for the fence. His mother rushed to stop him. I stopped her before she could reach him. It was a learning experience for him. He hasn't touched the fence since. Now if I tell him that something will hurt him, he believes me. Pain is a wonderful teacher, it's not nice, but it's remembered.
> 
> If someone tells you that people are generally good, they are diluted. If you want to see human nature, look at a very young child. They are selfish, aggressive, will take what they want and not care what the other child wants. That's human nature... Parents and society is what makes people "generally good". Far too many parents have checked out, and society has determined that everyone is a victim and it's always someone else's fault.
> 
> ...


Wise advice.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> right, things are the same as 1000 years ago. okay.


PEOPLE are the same. People


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Cornhusker said:


> When my youngest son was little, maybe 4 years old, he threw a screeching fit in the grocery store because I wouldn't buy him a certain cereal he wouldn't eat but wanted the prize.
> While he had his eyes squeezed shut, I stepped around the corner where he couldn't see me.
> He stopped screaming after a bit and I heard: "Daddy?" then "Daddy where are you?".
> He started to panic so I walked up to him and he said "Daddy, where'd you go?"
> ...


About 64 - 65 years ago I was taken to Safeway Grocery with my Mom. I, like your son, wanted something, candy I think, and was told no.

I had just seen an older child ask for something, throw a fit, and he got what he wanted. So with a sort of a scientific method, I proceeded to do the same. After screaming and yelling my mother said "come over here" sweetly and I thought "oh boy, this is gonna work". It didn't. Once near her I got my pants pulled down, a spanking right there in safeway, and not whatever I threw the fit for.

I then apparently I went over to the boy and said..."don't ever let me see you do that again". 

If one of our kids had done the same the same results would have occurred.
BUT, they heard this story from about 3 yrs. old on. They never tried...


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yeppers. I lay it at fdr's doorstep. He is the fool that started the mess.



My paternal grandmother loved FDR andd Eleanor.

My father was diametrically opposed.

Towards the end of his career in the Navy he had to take their young adults out fishing. I don't know what the dialogue was but he was bitter. Retired shortly thereafter.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

whiterock said:


> Years ago, in Wal Mart, lost my boy. He was probably in the 6 - 7 yo range at the time. I went looking and found him in the toy section. There were a number of boys in the aisle playing, seemed like a dozen or more, toys scattered all over the floor. I yelled "Clint" stop that. All but 2 or 3 stopped. Guess there were a lot of boys with the same name. I was the only adult on the aisle at the time. Mine was the only one that received any discipline that I know of, but some of the others ran off.


When my son was 4 or so, he would wander off and I would chase him down. One day, in a big store, I let him wander off. I stayed out of sight, but kept him in sight. I wanted to see what he would do. After a few minutes I saw the light bulb go on. He knew he was lost, and I was not around. I let him keep walking around. In a few minutes fright took hold of him. I let him just about tear up and then showed up.

He never wandered off again.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

light rain said:


> About 64 - 65 years ago I was taken to Safeway Grocery with my Mom. I, like your son, wanted something, candy I think, and was told no.
> 
> I had just seen an older child ask for something, throw a fit, and he got what he wanted. So with a sort of a scientific method, I proceeded to do the same. After screaming and yelling my mother said "come over here" sweetly and I thought "oh boy, this is gonna work". It didn't. Once near her I got my pants pulled down, a spanking right there in safeway, and not whatever I threw the fit for.
> 
> ...


That is great 

So, there is this legendarily devious child in my family who was at the grocery store with her mother one day. The child was whining, moaning, and being completely obnoxious, so the mother calmly walked over and grabbed the child by the upper arm to steer her gently, but forcibly, out of the store.

The child becomes limp like a sack of potatoes, so is only being held off the floor by her mother's iron grip on her upper arm. Seeing no other way out of this situation but noticing the concerned looks from the surrounding customers, the child commences to scream at the top of her lungs, tears flowing down her face, "Oh, no mommy, please don't break my arm again! Please mommy, I'll do anything you want, just don't break my arm again! I love you so much mommy!"

My mother...I mean the child's mother...let go of the child's arm and marched right out of that store without her.

The end.

I feel bad for my parents, looking back.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Mish said:


> That is great
> 
> So, there is this legendarily devious child in my family who was at the grocery store with her mother one day. The child was whining, moaning, and being completely obnoxious, so the mother calmly walked over and grabbed the child by the upper arm to steer her gently, but forcibly, out of the store.
> 
> ...


 Thanks! Brightened my day!


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HDRider said:


> When my son was 4 or so, he would wander off and I would chase him down. One day, in a big store, I let him wander off. I stayed out of sight, but kept him in sight. I wanted to see what he would do. After a few minutes I saw the light bulb go on. He knew he was lost, and I was not around. I let him keep walking around. In a few minutes fright took hold of him. I let him just about tear up and then showed up.
> 
> He never wandered off again.


When kids learn there are consequences, they learn pretty fast


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Cornhusker said:


> When kids learn there are consequences, they learn pretty fast


Yeppers, my daddy had a way with consequences, short and to the point but I never made the same mistake twice!


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

It's not the guns. It has nothing to do with guns. It has everything to do with people wanting to do whatever they want and screw the other guy and the consequences. It's all ME ME ME! now instead of people looking to help other people. 

You can blame the car, electricity, television, daycare, indoor plumbing, and on and on ad nauseam. We no longer spend all day every day simply struggling to survive. We no longer have the need to work together for the benefit of the group (tribe, family, village). We no longer see other people as allies, now they are competitors. The past 100 years have changed cultures and people significantly. Now it's everyone for themselves. We no longer live closely connected to our neighbors or family.



MoonRiver said:


> But why the change? Cultural changes of this magnitude typically take tens if not hundreds of years.


Look at the world history over the past 100 or so years. Look at all the changes that have happened. People have greatly expanded their knowledge of the world and discovered instant gratification. All you need to have anything you want is the internet and a credit card. 

Our world has grown faster than our capacity to learn to adjust to the change. Only when we relearn that we are all small parts of a grand whole will we ever be able to adjust to how we deal with other people. Society as a whole must relearn to be friends and supporters of each other. 

Of course back in those times there were struggles with other peoples, clans, tribes, etc. I'm sure that those with violent tendencies were prized for their unique talents in eliminating competition.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Humanity or human nature today is basically the same as it was 1,000 years ago. There were ~300 million people in the world then. There are almost 8 billion people now.


The SCIENCE if the situation...
(Science & History deniers need go no further, this is simply going to upset you)

Second point first, Overpopulation.
The first Billion people on the planet about the USA 'Civil War', around 1865.
Around Two Billion in 1900, there are an estimated 8 Billion now competing for resources.

Before anti-biotics/modern medicine (vaccines in particular) and things like pasteurization the infant/child/adolescent death rate was around 50%.
NATURE culled half the humans before they reached reproduction age, which also eliminated their offspring.

------------

The first point, part A, "Human Nature"
Add in the human Ego that 'Wants'...
No ration or reasoning, the ego just 'Wants' so humans cheat, steal, lie, murder...
The scary point is, we all have an Ego that lies to us daily, and if ration & reason don't override the Ego, we will cheat, steal, lie, murder. That's everyone, everywhere.

'Bad', or absent parents are nothing new, and while the 'Bad' parents *Can* produce a child that makes the 'Right' choices, it's rare & uncommon.
Absent parents produce children raised on any idiot/foolish thought they come across and make bad decisions, and don't become particularly productive in society.
'Useless' humans to a society mostly consume more than they contribute, and produce more humans useless to society.

Keep in mind there will be a defective few that are 'Wet Wired' to do horrendous things (simply because they 'Want' to.
Psychopaths have no concept of the greater good of society, they simply 'Want' and are willing to do anything to anyone to get what they 'Want'.
If they decide they 'Want' to kill people, we have a serial killer.
If they decide they 'Want' money, we have crooked bankers and crooked Wall St. brokers.

Then there are Sociopaths, shaped by society, their up bringing and surroundings.
Include 'Thugs', drug dealers, gang members in this group.
They know the difference between 'Right' & 'Wrong' ('Right' & 'Wrong' are society constructs) but simply have been trained by their situation to do anything to get what they 'Want'.

It's very difficult to separate a sociopath from a psychopath, but somewhere around 3% of the population score very high on the psychopathy scale.
That means 3 of every 10 people you run into every day are high on the psychopathy scale, from the person that insults others to boost their own ego, to the person that always points out flaws in others (an Ego boost to them), to the person that's always telling you what *You Should Do* (in their opinion).

---------------

Human Nature, part B, time frame.
(For the 'Religious' or science deniers, this is what will set them off...)

My only dispute is with the "1,000 year" comment since modern humans go back MUCH further than 1,000 years, but I get the point...

In the 2 million or so years of 'Modern' humanoids, there isn't much evidence of 'Wars' or violent death at the hands of other humanoids, right up through Neanderthals.
Neanderthals seemed to spread out when any particular spot got over crowded, and Neanderthals seem to have a drive to explore.
Neanderthals could make simple tools, had art/creative skills (cave paintings, decoration on clothing/trinkets).

The first evidence of weapons being used to kill comes from almost the first Homosapiens on though to the present day.
Somewhere around the time the modern human brain developed the imagination that allowed for complicated, compound tools & weapons, building for shelter etc, it also allowed religion and murder to creep into the human brain.

When Europeans landed in North America they labeled the Natives as 'Savages', mostly because for the most part they didn't have a written language, didn't have refined metals/tools, and the most famous, didn't have a word for 'Wheel'.

Those same Europeans marveled at how easy it was to 'Trick' the natives out of land and production simply because the 'Natives' didn't have a concept of DECEPTION.
No lies, no stealing, widows & orphans were taken care of instead of taken advantage of.
Instead of a 'Government' telling what you can & can't do, they had elders that gave advise from experience instead of some inexperienced idiot telling people what they can & can't do.
(And we all know how well that worked out with 'Royalty' running the show in Europe and why we had a 'Revloution' in the US)

------------

Now, think about the PEOPLE that got on a boat and took on a dangerous ocean trip to get to 'America' in the first place...
While it had plenty of 'Religious' types, these were also people willing to work from the ground up to build something, produce goods, work for a living.
These were able bodies with strong immune systems, willing to work hard, and smart enough to understand there was opportunity available.

They produced hard working, healthy children that learned hard work & to produce something.
They also had lazy-layabouts, which collected in cities over time, mostly because they could beg, borrow or steal a survival from others... And they reproduce raising children they taught to beg, borrow or steal a survival. (And the cycle continues)

The ONLY cure to break the cycle is EDUCATION.
Educate on how a healthy, functioning society works and teach EVERYONE must contribute.
The earlier the better, Head Start & 'Pre School' (an oxymoron since it is a school) programs.
A diciplined school setting with rules that mirror society instead of the "Lord Of The Flies" system we have now where the 'Students' (bullies) run the show.
This education MUST stress manual education, shop & home economics classes, math & science, .... without foundation, the later education and life in general can't stand on no foundation.
Diciplined people learn consequences, and WAY too many can't connect those dots these days...
This is NOT the "Hands Off" approach taken by parents & educators today, and requires a consensus & time investment BY EVERYONE.
(Consensus being if your child got diciplined, they did something to deserve it, and the punishment fits the violation)

This is too long, so I'm done...


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Mish said:


> there are going to be consequences.


*That* is what has changed.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

OK @JeepHammer that was long. In 10 words or less, what are you trying to tell us?


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

HDRider said:


> OK @JeepHammer that was long. In 10 words or less, what are you trying to tell us?


"In 10 words or less" is the problem...
You want "Instant Gratification".

I wasn't trying to 'Tell' you anything, simply defining some of the issues causing problems today.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

The lovely 60s/70s when a kid could actually be beaten and society would just look away.

I was beaten with braided leather riding quirt, but only on the legs and butt, unless they were really drunk. A gym teacher actually asked about the welts once, and I told her how they occurred. Crickets. Mr. Pixie had it worse. The good old days...


----------



## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

Brazil has only 60% of our population, less guns are more religious and have WAY more violent crime. They have a rate of something like 29 per 100,000 vs our 5.3 or so for homicides... something crazy. So the variables you're referencing do not seem exactly to be the problem. So to continue with your question, what's changed in the US?


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> The lovely 60s/70s when a kid could actually be beaten and society would just look away.
> 
> I was beaten with braided leather riding quirt, but only on the legs and butt, unless they were really drunk. A gym teacher actually asked about the welts once, and I told her how they occurred. Crickets. The good old days...


That is terrible and should never happen. That's not parenting, that's abuse, and I'm sorry that it happened to you and that no one with any authority stood up for you. There's no excuse for that.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

This guy knows what has changed, but many won't like what he has to say:
https://www.bitchute.com/video/kY4BpFHpDBY/?list=notifications&randomize=false



> On April 3rd, 2018, resident Mark Robinson gave an impassioned speech at the Greensboro, NC, city council meeting in support of the Second Amendment.
> 
> *This speech is the best four minutes you'll ever watch about how important gun rights are*


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> The lovely 60s/70s when a kid could actually be beaten and society would just look away.
> 
> I was beaten with braided leather riding quirt, but only on the legs and butt, unless they were really drunk. A gym teacher actually asked about the welts once, and I told her how they occurred. Crickets. Mr. Pixie had it worse. The good old days...


...


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> The lovely 60s/70s when a kid could actually be beaten and society would just look away.
> 
> I was beaten with braided leather riding quirt, but only on the legs and butt, unless they were really drunk. A gym teacher actually asked about the welts once, and I told her how they occurred. Crickets. Mr. Pixie had it worse. The good old days...


It seems you confuse discipline with abuse


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> You need to do some fact checking about the NRA and stop repeating far left lies.
> Seriously, you sound like a cartoon MSNBC


Sit down and take a little break. You need your rest.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> It seems you confuse discipline with abuse


I didn't confuse anything.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

JeepHammer said:


> "In 10 words or less" is the problem...
> You want "Instant Gratification".
> 
> I want trying to 'Tell' you anything, simply defining some of the issues causing problems today.


...


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

JeepHammer said:


> "In 10 words or less" is the problem...
> You want "Instant Gratification".
> 
> I want trying to 'Tell' you anything, simply defining some of the issues causing problems today.


OK, 20


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> I didn't confuse anything.


So, you simply don't know the difference?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> This guy knows what has changed, but many won't like what he has to say:
> https://www.bitchute.com/video/kY4BpFHpDBY/?list=notifications&randomize=false


I liked it


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HDRider said:


> So, you simply don't know the difference?


A lot of parents don't either, unfortunately.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> A lot of parents don't either, unfortunately.


Sadly that is true. I think children learn one of two things from abusive parents, one, to carry on the tradition, or vow to do right.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> The lovely 60s/70s when a kid could actually be beaten and society would just look away.
> 
> I was beaten with braided leather riding quirt, but only on the legs and butt, unless they were really drunk. A gym teacher actually asked about the welts once, and I told her how they occurred. Crickets. Mr. Pixie had it worse. The good old days...


Call it abuse if you wish, but have you ever seriously considered building a bomb and setting it of during a parade?


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Call it abuse if you wish, but have you ever seriously considered building a bomb and setting it of during a parade?


I'm not sure that has anything to do with anything. What she described was absolutely abuse.

First off, she's a female so statistically she wouldn't seriously consider building a bomb and setting it off during a parade whether she was abused or not. That tends to fall into the domain of males.

Secondly, I hope you're not seriously trying to say that abusing children keeps them from building bombs and trying to kill people, because abusing children does nothing other than hurt children. It actually tends to cause more violence (again, especially with the male children) as they carry on the abuse cycle. 

Child abuse doesn't prevent anything other than children growing up to be the person they were meant to be. All abuse does is create damaged human beings, some of whom turn around and damage others, some who damage themselves over and over.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

It was just a thought. When kids were spanked we didn't seem to have this problem.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> It was just a thought. When kids were spanked we didn't seem to have this problem.


Yeah we did. Mass shootings/bombings/killings have been going on forever. We are just lucky that we live in the age of 24 hour news and internet so we get it rubbed into our eyes, ears and noses all day, every day.

And there's a difference between spanking and beating. I'm not a fan of either, honestly, but there is a huge difference.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Mish said:


> Yeah we did. Mass shootings/bombings/killings have been going on forever. We are just lucky that we live in the age of 24 hour news and internet so we get it rubbed into our eyes, ears and noses all day, every day.
> 
> And there's a difference between spanking and beating. I'm not a fan of either, honestly, but there is a huge difference.


I don't think we had the % mass shootings here in the USA even 10 years ago at the rate that we have them now. Let me be specific. A stranger going with a firearm and shooting multiple other strangers.

There is a big difference between spanking and beating. I slapped my kids' hands a couple of times and maybe spanked them on their butts 1 or 2 times during their childhoods. My husband maybe one spanking ever for each child. Without going back and rereading IP's post I wonder why this was brought into the thread...

Yes the media does what suits THEM best.

Both autism and mass shootings (my definition) here in the USA have dramatically increased in the last 30 years and there is no denying it. The most pertinent ? is why.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

light rain said:


> I don't think we had the % mass shootings here in the USA even 10 years ago at the rate that we have them now. Let me be specific. A stranger going with a firearm and shooting multiple other strangers.


I'm terrible at remembering details but I've read enough of the statistics that other people have dug up on the same discussions here and in the Dark Rooms that I don't think we actually do have more than we used to 10 years ago. They've just changed the way they classify things as mass shootings. We're also not considering all of the daily gang violence that goes on where numerous people are shot - that hasn't changed and in some places it's actually gotten less common (I think the murder and gang violence rate has gone down in my part of the world compared to 10 years ago). 

By the way, I include gang violence because most of these guys don't know each other from Adam - they just kill each other because they've classified them as someone who needs killing because they belong to a certain group. Just like the media wants us to believe most of the high profile killers target people because they're part of a certain group. No different, people killing people they don't know for stupid and arbitrary reasons. Especially when they mistakenly kill "civilians."



light rain said:


> There is a big difference between spanking and beating. I slapped my kids' hands a couple of times and maybe spanked them on their butts 1 or 2 times during their childhoods. My husband maybe one spanking ever for each child. Without going back and rereading IP's post I wonder why this was brought into the thread...


I understand why she brought it up. There was a lot of talk (some of it by me) about whoopings, whackings, smackings, paddlings, spankings, etc. She had people who don't know where the line is and went over it, and (totally my assumption) she felt it was important to point out that what happened to her was not good parenting. 

A lot of people don't know where that line is, and there are a lot of people that believe the line is right before you raise your hand to another person. Some people believe any violence is abuse. 

I was paddled exactly once in my life - by my Principal, "professionally" and without anger or intent to harm, and it didn't injure me physically in any way - and still I felt humiliated, violated, and it didn't teach me anything other than that someone bigger and stronger than you can do whatever they want to you and you can't stop them. I'm sure that wasn't the intention, but that's what I got out of it. As an adult, I am sure the situation could have been handled in a much better way that actually taught me the lesson the paddling was trying to convey.

I get why she brought it up.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

light rain said:


> Both *autism* and mass shootings (my definition) here in the USA have dramatically increased in the last 30 years and there is no denying it. The most pertinent ? is why.


More are *diagnosed* with autism, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's been an actual increase in cases.
Crime in general and murders in particular are a historically low levels.


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Somehow, I get the feeling that this overall tendency of humanity to glorify themselves will be righted within a generation or so. Funny enough will be the fact that many will receive Darwin Awards... Most probably Post-Humous.


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

mnn2501 said:


> In the 1950's and 1960's (adjusted for population growth) there were just as many people with guns as there are today, yet there were no mass shootings like there are today.
> 
> *So what changed?*
> 
> ...


The threshold according to an article in the New Yorker magazine. I think they're on to something. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Mish said:


> Yeah we did. Mass shootings/bombings/killings have been going on forever. We are just lucky that we live in the age of 24 hour news and internet so we get it rubbed into our eyes, ears and noses all day, every day.
> 
> And there's a difference between spanking and beating. I'm not a fan of either, honestly, but there is a huge difference.


Really?! Mass shootings on a regular basis have been going on forever?!
Prior to 1970 school shootings in this country were extremely rare, mas shootings even moreso. Yep there is a difference between a spanking and a beating. Leaving a palm print or a welt from a switch is one thing, blood streaming from the cuts inflicted by belts, or chains is quite another.


----------



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

When I am asked what I think has changed in society since my youth, the first thing that comes to my mind is this episode of TAGS 



 and the memory of how in the 1970s many of our area LEOs chose to turn us kids over to our parents for minor discretion because they knew our parents would give us groundings and home hard time to impress how obeying society law was the better path and all the officer had to do was have dispatch make a call to our folks to come pick us up as the officer gave us a lecture as we waited.

Of course in addition to ensuring we were safe and disciplined , the officers not only gave us a chance to learn, they avoided paperwork and black marking us until we were 21.

One summer my friends and I were caught violating youth curfew and turned over to our parents and during my month on grounded status , my parents worked me in the garden like a prison farm convict (or so I thought ) and three days a week my father drove me and fresh produce to the meals for the home bound kitchen where the wife of one of the officers who pinched me volunteered so I could clean produce and ride with her to deliver hot meals to shut ins as she visited with them.

Will , the officer who turned me over to my parents well , noticed that I kept volunteering at the kitchen his wife worked at after my ground time was over until school started and asked me why.

All I could tell him was the third guy on her route was a good chess player to learn from and all the old folks were fun to visit if he wasn't up for a game.

If we did play a game as he ate , when she finished her meal route , she doubled back to pick me up after my chess game with the man and dropped me off at my house.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> It was just a thought. When kids were spanked we didn't seem to have this problem.


"Spanking" is a LONG way from what many suffered.
No one should EVER hit a kid in the head, it's WAY too easy to damage a devloping brain, particularly the parts that control ration & reason.
Ration & reason is what we are lacking most of the time when someone does something stupid.

Nicotine, caffeine, refined sugars, alcohol & drugs all have a direct affect on the devloping brain.
Keep in mind BPA is used as a liner in almost all metal cans, and BPA is a hormone in a human.
BPA started as a potential birth control hormone, but wasn't reliable and caused birth defects. Then was tested for chemical warfare properties, but it was so simple to make it wound up used as a sealer/liner for metal cans.
Growth hormones fed to livestock to make them fill out faster doesn't break down during cooking, it goes right into the consumer of that meat.

As for outright physical abuse, no shortage of it.
Plenty of drunk/stoned parents that smack kids around, and no shortage of 'Religion' types thinking it's "OK" to beat children.
Mix drugs/alcohol with the self-righteousness of religion in parents, and the kids have about zero chance of escaping physical abuse.

We aren't talking a swat on the butt here when other dicipline measures have failed...


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Really?! Mass shootings on a regular basis have been going on forever?!
> Prior to 1970 school shootings in this country were extremely rare, mas shootings even moreso.


People killing other people has been going on forever. Why specify shootings? Weapons people use to massacre others change with the times. Why not add in all the other ways you can kill people.

Since you mention it, school shootings:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

Perhaps some terrorism is more your style:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States

Massacres sound fun:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_United_States

You can find all sorts of lists of the ways in which we love to take each other out. Get as weird as you want with your criteria and I'm sure there's a list for it. We've been coming up with inventive ways of killing each other literally _forever_.


----------



## D-BOONE (Feb 9, 2016)

It is all a conspiracy brought on by the 4 horseman


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Mish said:


> I'm terrible at remembering details but I've read enough of the statistics that other people have dug up on the same discussions here and in the Dark Rooms that I don't think we actually do have more than we used to 10 years ago. They've just changed the way they classify things as mass shootings. We're also not considering all of the daily gang violence that goes on where numerous people are shot - that hasn't changed and in some places it's actually gotten less common (I think the murder and gang violence rate has gone down in my part of the world compared to 10 years ago).
> 
> By the way, I include gang violence because most of these guys don't know each other from Adam - they just kill each other because they've classified them as someone who needs killing because they belong to a certain group. Just like the media wants us to believe most of the high profile killers target people because they're part of a certain group. No different, people killing people they don't know for stupid and arbitrary reasons. Especially when they mistakenly kill "civilians."
> 
> ...


That lesson “someone bigger and stronger than you can do whatever they want to you and you cant’t stop them. “ 
Right or wrong you learned a lot right there. Quite a few in our society learn that lesson and associated lessons much later in life. With severe consequences.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Mish said:


> I'm terrible at remembering details but I've read enough of the statistics that other people have dug up on the same discussions here and in the Dark Rooms that I don't think we actually do have more than we used to 10 years ago. They've just changed the way they classify things as mass shootings. We're also not considering all of the daily gang violence that goes on where numerous people are shot - that hasn't changed and in some places it's actually gotten less common (I think the murder and gang violence rate has gone down in my part of the world compared to 10 years ago).
> 
> By the way, I include gang violence because most of these guys don't know each other from Adam - they just kill each other because they've classified them as someone who needs killing because they belong to a certain group. Just like the media wants us to believe most of the high profile killers target people because they're part of a certain group. No different, people killing people they don't know for stupid and arbitrary reasons. Especially when they mistakenly kill "civilians."
> 
> ...


That lesson “someone bigger and stronger than you can do whatever they want to you and you cant’t stop them. “ 
Right or wrong you learned a lot right there. Quite a few in our society learn that lesson and associated lessons much later in life. With severe consequences.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> More are *diagnosed* with autism, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's been an actual increase in cases.
> Crime in general and murders in particular are a historically low levels.


The medical associations have been declaring increases fairly high for the last 30 years. Our family medical person agrees with your viewpoint. From personal observation I think you're both wrong...

Mass shootings by young white males have, without a doubt, have increased.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

JeepHammer said:


> "Spanking" is a LONG way from what many suffered.
> No one should EVER hit a kid in the head, it's WAY too easy to damage a devloping brain, particularly the parts that control ration & reason.
> Ration & reason is what we are lacking most of the time when someone does something stupid.
> 
> ...


A lot of what you say is true. Some of it I don't agree with.

In the '80's we lived in Va. A neighbor up the street, she was from West Va. They had 4 children. Their daughter was the same age as our daughter. The little girl came down to play at our house. Our daughter came in while I was working in the kitchen and said "Tina's Daddy hurt her". I wasn't really paying attention but our daughter was persistent. I stopped and asked our daughter what she meant.
They both came in and our daughter pulled up Tina's shirt. On her back were clear imprints of a cord. I was upset & angry and wondering what I should do. Thought about, probably prayed about it and called the local police. They came, took pictures and left. When her Mom dropped by and found out what happened she was not happy. Oh well.

He was not arrested. He was from Cambodia and we tried to get our church to help him but he was resistant to change. Eventually ended up cutting all the the ligaments, muscles in his partner's hand as she covered her face which was his target. She wanted to leave him.

Spanking is one thing. Abuse is a crime. I believe some spanking is warranted. Abuse never is.

*We use few canned goods unless in glass.
Less meat consumption for many reasons.
No gylphosate.
A whole lot less plastic in our house.


----------



## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

In my day, high school students drove the buses for all students. When I was bused to a middle school across town for grades 4-8, I learned several lessons. The greatest was because if the riders acted up, the driver was to drive the bus to the high school where the assistant principal was waiting. Every rider was unloaded and ordered to place your hands flat on the side of the bus. Every rider got 3 licks from the paddle the assistant principal had waiting whether your were involved or not. I learned to walk my happy butt home and not have to police the bus.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

light rain said:


> Mass shootings by young white males have, without a doubt, have increased.


Much of that is due to media hype creating copycats.
They haven't increased in direct proportion to the number of guns available, so guns can't be the cause.

Punishing those who did nothing won't help.
It would be like the #metoo movement demanding *all* men cut off their penises to prevent rape.

If Democrats truly want guns banned, why don't they turn theirs in first, including those of their armed bodyguards? 

If that makes a difference, maybe others will follow their lead.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

light rain said:


> The medical associations have been declaring increases fairly high for the last 30 years. Our family medical person agrees with your viewpoint. From personal observation I think you're both wrong...
> 
> Mass shootings by young white males have, without a doubt, have increased.


Only young white males ?

For a interesting hour to two you could try googling for a picture of each and every mass shooter here in the USA so far this year. No idea on the ratio of types that has increased. You will see that the list of pictures you compile pretty will covers a broad spectrum of males. Few females.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Light Rain, you do t have to agree with me.
If I see ANYONE smack a kid in the head, it won't go well for the one abusing a child, and while I'm fully aware of what the 'Law' is, I'm willing to go to jail while whatever is left of the abuser goes to the hospital. I simply won't stand for it.

Spanking is a LAST resort, hand on bottom... Maybe...
There is exactly zero tolerance for wires, cords, fists, billy clubs, alcohol bottles or whatever is handy.

What you describe is a serial abuser.
I had a serial abuser as a parent, and I won't allow it around me.
Serial abusers escalate, the more they get away with, the more they will do.
Serial abusers are also cowards, they never abuse someone that will knock the snot out of them, they always 'Punch Down', someone smaller or less able to defend themselves.
(See senior abuse)

Put someone in the picture that can & will knock them into last month and the abuse stops...
I know this to be first hand fact since I've been the 'Someone' a few times.
While your neighbor would abuse the wife & child, let's see how he does with a full grown man and former U.S. Marine... 

Do you want to bet it would be more effective than 'Praying' was? Or calling, in your case, do nothing police?
Cowards avoid poking the bear... Only idiots stick their heads in a wood chipper...

----------

A trip to the hospital *Should* have produced better results since hospitals are mandated reporters to child services, while police are not.
That's hind sight now, most people don't know it, and it would have depended on how many years ago it happened.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

light rain said:


> Mass shootings by young white males have, without a doubt, have increased.


'Mass Shooting' or 'Spree Shooting' definition hasn't changed since the FBI defined it in 1966 after Charles Whitman stabbed his wife & mother to death,
Shot 3 unrelated people to death inside University Tower, Austin, TX. Then proceeded to the open public space on top the tower where he killed 11 more and wounded 31 others.
The last to die was 35 years after the attack from injuries sustained in the attack, 35 years in a coma state until infections finally finished that victim off.

In the aftermath, the FBI described any 3 or more unrelated people being victims in the same attack is a 'Mass' shooting, while different attack locations involving 3 or more unrelated victims is a 'Spree' shooter.

The first 'Mass' shooting I leaned about was Camp Salina, Utah, 8-July-1945.
The Germans had surrendered, and by all accounts a useless private named Clarence Bertucci dumped 250 rounds (full can) of .30-06 from a mounted Browning 1917 machine gun into the POW camp he was supposed to be guarding.
He murdered 9 and wounded 19 POWs while they slept, (the attack was after midnight).

And if you want to compare 'Statistics'...
You are 7,600 times more likely to be murdered by a US Citizen/White Supremacist than an immigrant or radical Islam terrorist.

While black on black crime is an serious issue, over 98% of blacks kill other blacks.
White Supremacists kill EVERYBODY, Hispanics, blacks, whites, Asians, and let's not forget the religions they like to target, etc.

The school shootings, while horrendous, are just a blip on the statistics, white supremacists have been murdering since the U.S. formed, and that's a lot of years and a mountain of bodies.

Now that the white supremacists are armed with military grade weapons capable of dumping 100 rounds or more in less than a minute, and that's in everyday civilian semi-auto trim,
The body counts are going to increase because of the number of rounds that can be fired in a very short time, and the lethality of the cartridge, and the sheer number/ease of which these military grade weapons can be aquired.
And, by definition, 'White Supremacists' are white males since they also look at women as 'Inferior'.

Over population means more people.
More people means more DEFECTIVE people, just a head full of worms & acid.
Availability of military grade firearms and 100 round magazines means more mass shootings with higher body counts...
Add in the internet where these defective people can find others to support their mental illness,/idiot ideas and you have more potential mass shooters being supported/trained...

Add the tweet Nazi in the white house directing hate speech at anyone with 'Brown' skin, a confirmed white supremacists owning Fox News (faux 'News') and the defectives *Think* they are 'Justified'.
This couldn't be more Un-American since we live under the Constitution & rule of law.
The hate mongers and paid pundts have turned what being an American is up-side-down, and it's now time to reap what they sowed...
The bad part is no one is shooting at THEM, we as rank & file Americans are the ones bleeding & dying.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> 'Mass Shooting' or 'Spree Shooting' definition hasn't changed since the FBI defined it in 1966 after Charles Whitman stabbed his wife & mother to death


He's the one who was stopped with the help of armed citizens using their own rifles.

https://timeline.com/during-the-nat...ooting-armed-students-fired-back-43bc18a3ddc3



> During the first mass school shooting, armed students fired back
> Now Texas is letting students carry guns on college campuses again in order to defend themselves


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I was going to say the Internet, but I think communications might be a more inclusive answer. The cell phone, cable TV and especially cable news, social media, email, blogs, chat, message boards, videos, video games, etc have almost completely changed how we communicate.

Businesses were forced to adapt or perish. Those that didn't adapt fast enough couldn't compete with those that did. Money was the motivator and also determined which businesses survived. They developed procedures on how these new technologies were to be used. On the other hand, government has been very slow in adapting to these new technologies and is still extremely inefficient and ineffective. They can't quickly provide meaningful guidance to the public because they themselves don't know what they are doing.

And then we get to families and individuals. Where's the guidebook on how to deal with these new technologies? What are parents supposed to do when their kids are more knowledgeable about the new technologies than they are? How are parents supposed to protect and teach their children when they have lost the ability to limit these new outside influences?

So we see our historical community institutions being replaced by online businesses who don't have our families or our communities best interests at heart. I don't think this can be resolved for a long time. The government will come up with ineffective solutions and the people are not organized to pressure these companies into making the necessary changes. Every family and every individual is going to just have to do the best they can.

I personally deleted my twitter and facebook ids, rarely use google search, but won't give up youtube. I've cut way back on the time spent watching cable news. But millions would have to do this before we got anyone's attention.

ETA: In reading back over this, I thought I should summarize.

Businesses were forced to adapt to new communication technologies to survive. They established rules and procedures.
Government is slow to adapt to change and is totally incapable of passing legislation that will effectively address the problem.
Families are given no guidance and are at the mercy of big business when it comes to protecting their children from dangerous/destructive communications.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

light rain said:


> There is a big difference between spanking and beating. I slapped my kids' hands a couple of times and maybe spanked them on their butts 1 or 2 times during their childhoods. My husband maybe one spanking ever for each child. Without going back and rereading IP's post I wonder why this was brought into the thread...
> 
> Yes the media does what suits THEM best.
> 
> Both autism and mass shootings (my definition) here in the USA have dramatically increased in the last 30 years and there is no denying it. The most pertinent ? is why.





Mish said:


> I understand why she brought it up. There was a lot of talk (some of it by me) about whoopings, whackings, smackings, paddlings, spankings, etc. She had people who don't know where the line is and went over it, and (totally my assumption) she felt it was important to point out that what happened to her was not good parenting.
> 
> A lot of people don't know where that line is, and there are a lot of people that believe the line is right before you raise your hand to another person. Some people believe any violence is abuse.
> 
> ...





Redlands Okie said:


> That lesson “someone bigger and stronger than you can do whatever they want to you and you cant’t stop them. “
> Right or wrong you learned a lot right there. Quite a few in our society learn that lesson and associated lessons much later in life. With severe consequences.



Yes, a few things are taught with cop oral punishment and not always the right things, as mentioned.
But the most *important* thing wasn't mentioned above, and IMO is the main answer to the thread's question.
It's also the most important reason for the parent's use of it and doing it properly.

*Did you learn the difference between right and wrong?
*
If you did, then the rest of your life will go much easier.


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Mentally and physically, *people* haven't changed much in the last 10,000 years.
> That's not the same as saying "things" are the same.
> 
> The environment is what is different.
> Too many rats crammed in the cage





HDRider said:


> PEOPLE are the same. People


I guess we might agree to disagree HDRider. I think people have changed, and continue to change, because our environment has changed, like BFF said, and the crammed rats is only a part of it.

Sure we all still eat and poop the same as our ancestors, but emotionally and mentally people have changed. 

Things change. For better or worse. Unfortunately I don't think there is an exact answer of what changed. Many things changed because change is constant. Change has sped up in the last 100 years, communications especially, like MoonRiver said.

Does anyone think we can really find the "what it is that changed" and switch it back and make everything "right" again? 
Who is to say it was ever "right"? People talk about the past like it was better but yet children were getting beaten and that was acceptable. 
It is unfortunate, and difficult to watch, the events that are occurring, at this time, but how do you stop the passage of time?


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> Yes, a few things are taught with cop oral punishment and not always the right things, as mentioned.
> But the most *important* thing wasn't mentioned above, and IMO is the main answer to the thread's question.
> It's also the most important reason for the parent's use of it and doing it properly.
> 
> ...


How does _being hit_ teach right and wrong?
please explain


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Much of that is due to media hype creating copycats.
> They haven't increased in direct proportion to the number of guns available, so guns can't be the cause.
> 
> Punishing those who did nothing won't help.
> ...


Democrats don't want to give up their guns and protection, they just want to take away our right to protect ourselves.
Soon, we'll be like England where you can do hard time for defending yourself in your own home.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Children are beaten and abused today, way too often and in our own backyards, figuratively.
That doesn't change anything about *proper* discipline and parenting.
That can include a wide spectrum and as long as the results are good, I'm fine with the methods. In this case one size DOESN'T fit all.
But you can't argue with the results.
Either kids are acting worse now or they aren't, some people will have a hard time even being convinced of THAT.
For those that do see the problem, the only thing left is to figure out the solution, and there are still some that know the answer to that too.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> How does _being hit_ teach right and wrong?
> please explain


Doing wrong results in pain.
Pain is an aversion to most species.

Wrong = pain.

Don't want pain? Don't do wrong, pretty simple stuff even a child can understand.


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> Doing wrong results in pain.
> Pain is an aversion to most species.
> 
> Wrong = pain.
> ...


 an extrinsic consequence doesn't teach right from wrong

it teaches : if you do something the adult doesn't like, they will hit you because they have no self control over themselves and don't know how to properly teach anything.

I was spanked and all it did was make me resent the adult. Taught me that they had no control over their emotions and unfortunately because of that model have had to relearn how to control my own emotions.

people hitting people, adults or children is not ever appropriate IMO


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> How does _being hit_ teach right and wrong?
> please explain


It doesn't. Period. End of discussion. It just makes a little person realize that bigger people can control, make them afraid, or that that their love is conditional.

That said, I did spank (and I definitely know the difference between a spanking and a beating) our oldest a few times, I don't ever remember spanking our youngest. The older daughter was terribly impulsive, and it was the only way to get through to her that something was dangerous. The youngest was disciplined by a time out. As they grew older, discipline was being grounded, no electronics (no TV, stereo, phone (landline) etc.) and it worked. Both girls knew there were consequences to their actions. Both girls grew into responsible, caring women.

If I had a do over with the oldest, I would never have spanked her. There are other ways to divert attention.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> an extrinsic consequence doesn't teach right from wrong
> 
> it teaches : if you do something the adult doesn't like, they will hit you because they have no self control over themselves and don't know how to properly teach anything.
> 
> ...





Irish Pixie said:


> It doesn't. Period. End of discussion. It just makes a little person realize that bigger people can control, make them afraid, or that that their love is conditional.
> 
> That said, I did spank (and I definitely know the difference between a spanking and a beating) our oldest a few times, I don't ever remember spanking our youngest. The older daughter was terribly impulsive, and it was the only way to get through to her that something was dangerous. The youngest was disciplined by a time out. As they grew older, discipline was being grounded, no electronics (no TV, stereo, phone (landline) etc.) and it worked. Both girls knew there were consequences to their actions. Both girls grew into responsible, caring women.
> 
> If I had a do over with the oldest, I would never have spanked her. There are other ways to divert attention.



All I know is, it works for most members of most species.
Of course there are always exceptions, some never learn.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Do you need to get hit to learn something? I sure don't and never did. Taking away a toy or just knowing how I upset my parents was far worse. 

A thinking person does not need to hit. It is an emotional response and is not conducive to learning. We don't hit children to help them get better grades.

It is not having repercussions or following through on repercussions that is the problem.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Apparently the "One size DOESN'T fit all" comment wasn't heeded.
However, I won't be handing out beatings because of it. 
IOW, good parenting doesn't equal beating your kids everyday, for every reason.
Extrinsic punishment works when used sparingly, otherwise it makes things worse.

The idea that most young children are going to engage in a philosophical discussion as a "thinking person" during a tantrum at the grocery store is a funny thought though.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

JeepHammer said:


> "Spanking" is a LONG way from what many suffered.
> No one should EVER hit a kid in the head, it's WAY too easy to damage a devloping brain, particularly the parts that control ration & reason.
> Ration & reason is what we are lacking most of the time when someone does something stupid.
> 
> ...


A lot of what you say is true. Some of it I don't agree with.

In the '80's we lived in Va. A neighbor up the street, she was from West Va. They had 4 children. Their daughter was the same age as our daughter. The little girl came down to play at our house. Our daughter came in while I was working in the kitchen and said "Tina's Daddy hurt her". I wasn't really paying attention but our daughter was persistent. I stopped and asked our daughter what she meant.
They both came in and our daughter pulled up Tina's shirt. On her back were clear imprints of a cord. I was upset & angry and wondering what I should do. Thought about, probably prayed about it and called the local police. They came, took pictures and left. When her Mom dropped by and found out what happened she was not happy. Oh well.

He was not arrested. He was from Cambodia and we tried to get our church to help him but he was resistant to change. Eventually ended up cutting all the the ligaments, muscles in his partner's hand as she covered her face which was his target. She wanted to leave him.

Spanking is one thing. Abuse is a crime. I believe some spanking is warranted. Abuse never is.

*We use few canned goods unless in glass.
Less meat consumption for many reasons.
No gylphosate.
A whole lot less plastic in our house.


Darren said:


> The threshold according to an article in the New Yorker magazine. I think they're on to something. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence


While this offers a plausable theory why the school shootings are happening it generates more questions for me.

How did a teenager that age afford all the items he had amassed? Did he have a job?

If that was a rental facility who signed the papers and paid for it?

It said his Dad was a factory worker that worked a lot of overtime but what was his mother's influence on David LaDue?

Did he attend church regularly?

Is autism a factor in the shedding of empathy for others? Are more young men exhibiting autism now since the 1950's?

Did his family ever seek help for him for his antisocial activities? Who were his friends?

Whitman, the Texas shooter from the 60's did seek help for his increasing rage and headaches. He was given drugs and the only ones I could find out were amphetamines, but there were others, but not stated. He also had a brain tumor the size of a pecan and was the victim of outright child abuse by his father...


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

JeepHammer said:


> "Spanking" is a LONG way from what many suffered.
> No one should EVER hit a kid in the head, it's WAY too easy to damage a devloping brain, particularly the parts that control ration & reason.
> Ration & reason is what we are lacking most of the time when someone does something stupid.
> 
> ...


A lot of what you say is true. Some of it I don't agree with.

In the '80's we lived in Va. A neighbor up the street, she was from West Va. They had 4 children. Their daughter was the same age as our daughter. The little girl came down to play at our house. Our daughter came in while I was working in the kitchen and said "Tina's Daddy hurt her". I wasn't really paying attention but our daughter was persistent. I stopped and asked our daughter what she meant.
They both came in and our daughter pulled up Tina's shirt. On her back were clear imprints of a cord. I was upset & angry and wondering what I should do. Thought about, probably prayed about it and called the local police. They came, took pictures and left. When her Mom dropped by and found out what happened she was not happy. Oh well.

He was not arrested. He was from Cambodia and we tried to get our church to help him but he was resistant to change. Eventually ended up cutting all the the ligaments, muscles in his partner's hand as she covered her face which was his target. She wanted to leave him.

Spanking is one thing. Abuse is a crime. I believe some spanking is warranted. Abuse never is.

*We use few canned goods unless in glass.
Less meat consumption for many reasons.
No gylphosate.
A whole lot less plastic in our house.


Darren said:


> The threshold according to an article in the New Yorker magazine. I think they're on to something. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence


While this offers a plausable theory why the school shootings are happening it generates more questions for me.

How did a teenager that age afford all the items he had amassed? Did he have a job?

If that was a rental facility who signed the papers and paid for it?

It said his Dad was a factory worker that worked a lot of overtime but what was his mother's influence on David LaDue?

Did he attend church regularly?

Is autism a factor in the shedding of empathy for others? Are more young men exhibiting autism now since the 1950's?

Did his family ever seek help for him for his antisocial activities? Who were his friends?

Whitman, the Texas shooter from the 60's did seek help for his increasing rage and headaches. He was given drugs and the only ones I could find out were amphetamines, but there were others, but not stated. He also had a brain tumor the size of a pecan and was the victim of outright child abuse by his father...


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

JeepHammer said:


> Light Rain, you do t have to agree with me.
> If I see ANYONE smack a kid in the head, it won't go well for the one abusing a child, and while I'm fully aware of what the 'Law' is, I'm willing to go to jail while whatever is left of the abuser goes to the hospital. I simply won't stand for it.
> 
> Spanking is a LAST resort, hand on bottom... Maybe...
> ...


Over 30 years ago. How do you legally take someone else's child to the hospital? In the back of my mind I was also worried this would generate more abuse but called the police anyway. 

We got a big rock through our picture window during the night shortly after this incident.
Motivation to move to the country...


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

JeepHammer said:


> Light Rain, you do t have to agree with me.
> If I see ANYONE smack a kid in the head, it won't go well for the one abusing a child, and while I'm fully aware of what the 'Law' is, I'm willing to go to jail while whatever is left of the abuser goes to the hospital. I simply won't stand for it.
> 
> Spanking is a LAST resort, hand on bottom... Maybe...
> ...


Over 30 years ago. How do you legally take someone else's child to the hospital? In the back of my mind I was also worried this would generate more abuse but called the police anyway. 

We got a big rock through our picture window during the night shortly after this incident.
Motivation to move to the country...


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> Apparently the "One size DOESN'T fit all" comment wasn't heeded.
> However, I won't be handing out beatings because of it.
> IOW, good parenting doesn't equal beating your kids everyday, for every reason.
> Extrinsic punishment works when used sparingly, otherwise it makes things worse.
> ...


I am glad there won't be any beatings handed out... 
And for the record I would never try to have a philosophical discussion with a child, that's not the alternative to hitting. Nor would I recommend it.

In fact - the irony with the suggestion is that it is a method some parents use and it is part of the problem of why children grow up with out knowing who is in charge. I can't tell you how many time's I've heard a 2 year old asked if they want to put their coat on because it is time to go. From kind, educated, well meaning people. Don't know why this is the new instinct for some. Creates confusion about who is in charge. 
But I still don't think you have to hit someone to let them know you're in charge, I agree it apparently works for some.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> I am glad there won't be any beatings handed out...
> And for the record I would never try to have a philosophical discussion with a child, that's not the alternative to hitting. Nor would I recommend it.
> 
> In fact - the irony with the suggestion is that it is a method some parents use and it is part of the problem of why children grow up with out knowing who is in charge. I can't tell you how many time's I've heard a 2 year old asked if they want to put their coat on because it is time to go. From kind, educated, well meaning people. Don't know why this is the new instinct for some. Creates confusion about who is in charge.
> But I still don't think you have to hit someone to let them know you're in charge, I agree it apparently works for some.


I think it works for some because they have not learned a better way.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> Yes, a few things are taught with cop oral punishment and not always the right things, as mentioned.
> But the most *important* thing wasn't mentioned above, and IMO is the main answer to the thread's question.
> It's also the most important reason for the parent's use of it and doing it properly.
> 
> ...


From the paddling? No.

The paddling situation stemmed from me being tortured by a certain boy for several years. Pulling my hair in school, pinching me from his desk behind me, following me home from school and throwing rocks at me, sometimes grabbing me and punching me in the stomach, you know, the kind of thing you complain about as a girl and everyone says the abuse is just because he likes me, I should enjoy being tortured. Nobody would stop him, including teachers. It escalated over time, until one day, he was sitting at his desk behind mine, poking me with a pencil in the back, over and over (I got in trouble for audibly telling him to stop, for disrupting class). I finally snapped, turned around, and stabbed him in the forearm as hard as I could with my pencil and broke the tip of the pencil off in his arm (I've told that story before, just not the lead up to it).

So, _I_ get taken to the principal's office. Not him, even though I've been telling everyone that will listen what he's been doing to me for years. I'm completely honest about what happened, that I knew I shouldn't have stabbed him with the pencil, but I felt I had to go into "crazy beats mean" mode to make him stop, because no one else would. I did it in class, in full view of an adult so that he couldn't literally kill me because there were witnesses. I was a woman on the edge. I got paddled for defending myself.

The lessons I learned:

1. That boys can do whatever they want to girls, and that abuse is how boys show they like you.

2. Defending yourself when all other avenues have failed you is inappropriate and will result in punishment. Just sit there and look pretty, and take it. He really likes you, that's why you have a black eye today.

3. That adults (and especially men?) can hit you for any reason and there's nothing you can do about it and it's your fault. It doesn't even have to make sense - I'm being punished for committing a "violent act" while defending myself by someone else committing a violent act on me where I'm also not allowed to defend myself. Hm.

Do _you_ think I learned the difference between right and wrong? Or did I just learn a lesson on how I _should_ act to become a better victim? Might makes right.


----------



## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

Darren said:


> The threshold according to an article in the New Yorker magazine. I think they're on to something. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence



Great article. The idea of not only thresholds for violence, but the way of conceptualizing this as a riot that is not compressed in time and location, but spread over time and distance, is really interesting. That links to the teenager's eternal need to rebel, need to belong to a peer group, and you can see how modern media coverage and the internet facilitate this. 

I think it is a mistake to focus too directly on link to autism though. The main focus of the story is a kid who happened to be on the spectrum, but if you look at the total article, its clear that its when subculture, weapon (not just gun) availability, and some sort of mental/emotional defect intersect is the toxic cocktail. Some of the other shooters were not autistic, but sociopathic, psychotic, pyschopathic, etc. 

It should also be noted that school shootings are a particular subset of mass killings. The typical perpetrator can differ significantly from a shooter motivated by terrorism, white supremacy or warped ideology.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Mish said:


> From the paddling? No.
> 
> The paddling situation stemmed from me being tortured by a certain boy for several years. Pulling my hair in school, pinching me from his desk behind me, following me home from school and throwing rocks at me, sometimes grabbing me and punching me in the stomach, you know, the kind of thing you complain about as a girl and everyone says the abuse is just because he likes me, I should enjoy being tortured. Nobody would stop him, including teachers. It escalated over time, until one day, he was sitting at his desk behind mine, poking me with a pencil in the back, over and over (I got in trouble for audibly telling him to stop, for disrupting class). I finally snapped, turned around, and stabbed him in the forearm as hard as I could with my pencil and broke the tip of the pencil off in his arm (I've told that story before, just not the lead up to it).
> 
> ...


That's the problem with only getting some of the facts.

Should that have been allowed to cont.? No.
Did you have a right to defend yourself? Yes.
Should the school have addressed his actions LONG BEFORE you fought back? Yes.
What did your parents do to try to stop the physical abuse by the boy? 

We had a situation when our kids rode the school bus. One boy from a nearby family would often hit our kids over the head on the way home. I told our kids that tell him to stop and if he didn't, punch him square in the nose as hard as you can. We did not raise our kids to be victims, if at all possible. I believe I complained to the school. Our kids did not want to defend themselves because of the reason you stated. They didn't want to get in trouble.

Ran into the Mom of the boy at the laundromat and told her how angry I was. She said she would take care of it. Didn't happen again. The boy's older brother was a good kid. This boy committed a terrible crime years ago and went to jail.

Go back to the 1920's. My Mom and many of her friends were beaten by a really big older girl, I believe mentally unstable. The girl would wait until the smaller children were by themselves. A smart tactic. My Mom got the kids together and they ganged up on the girl and hit her. She was not permanently hurt as far as I know, but she never bullied another kid around there again.

In the 50's our across-the-street neighbors had a son about my age. Occasionally my Mom would take me over and she would visit the Mom and I would play with the son. We'd be playing and he would bite me enough to leave marks on my arm. The other mother would say "now Billy that wasn't nice". My Mom looked at me and said "if he bites you again, bite him back harder". The other mother said, huffily, "you're going to give that girl inhibitions". My Mom said "at least she won't have bite marks"...

It is important to get the whole story to really understand why things happen.
Also important to pray for wisdom and understanding because it should help the truth become a little easier to see.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Do you need to get hit to learn something? I sure don't and never did. Taking away a toy or just knowing how I upset my parents was far worse.
> 
> A thinking person does not need to hit. It is an emotional response and is not conducive to learning. We don't hit children to help them get better grades.
> 
> It is not having repercussions or following through on repercussions that is the problem.


My parents never beat me and I never beat my kids.
My dad would set us to a task for bad behavior One of his favorites was a pile of bricks.
That one started when my brother threw a toy truck through a window.
Dad took us to the pile of bricks and made us throw them as far as we could, then when all 300 were thrown, we'd go throw them back. This process was repeated until we were too wore out to throw anything through a window.
It also worked when my brother threw a homemade spear at me and missed. The spear went through the front door.
Back to the brick pile.
Not sure why I always suffered the punishment for his crimes.
A couple times he sent us out with a big dishwasher box and had us fill it with Mexican Sand-burrs...that takes a while and you cover a lot of ground.
There was always a consequence. I think Dad may have learned his parenting when he was in The Marines 
One time when we were older, my brother got in trouble for something but I can't quite remember what, may have been staying out all night.
Dad took the keys to the GTO and told us we weren't going anywhere for a while (Again, I was an innocent bystander found guilty by being a twin).
Dad hopped in his pickup and went to work, and as soon as he was out of sight, my brother jumped in Dad's car and went to town, parked in front of the Gambles store, and while he was inside, Dad's car caught fire.
Must have been something with the carburetor, because it needed a new carb after that.
When my brother got home, he expected the worst, but Dad tossed him the keys to the GTO and told him "Do whatever you want" then walked away without a word.
My brother realized that Dad was very hurt and disappointed, and Dad giving up on him really got through.
He never did anything like that again. He could take punishment, but he couldn't take Dad being so disappointed.
Looking back, I'm surprised nobody beat us.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> From the paddling? No.
> 
> The paddling situation stemmed from me being tortured by a certain boy for several years. Pulling my hair in school, pinching me from his desk behind me, following me home from school and throwing rocks at me, sometimes grabbing me and punching me in the stomach, you know, the kind of thing you complain about as a girl and everyone says the abuse is just because he likes me, I should enjoy being tortured. Nobody would stop him, including teachers. It escalated over time, until one day, he was sitting at his desk behind mine, poking me with a pencil in the back, over and over (I got in trouble for audibly telling him to stop, for disrupting class). I finally snapped, turned around, and stabbed him in the forearm as hard as I could with my pencil and broke the tip of the pencil off in his arm (I've told that story before, just not the lead up to it).
> 
> ...


I hate that story on so many levels. Boys should be held accountable for that kind of abuse, and parents should be trained on how to end it as soon as it revels itself. 

On behalf of all boys that liked girls, and used the classic note method: Do you like me: Yes or No - Check one, I am so sorry


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

light rain said:


> That's the problem with only getting some of the facts.
> 
> Should that have been allowed to cont.? No.
> Did you have a right to defend yourself? Yes.
> ...


My parents were of the school of thought that kids should handle kid stuff - at least that's what they said. I think they didn't want to have to bother to deal with it. Which would be fine if the other kid didn't outweigh me by about 40 lbs, and I wasn't a girl raised by pacifist hippies (meaning I don't know how to fight) trying to fight a boy in a higher weight class. 

I had some girlfriends who would go out of their way to walk home with me most days, since he couldn't beat all of us. But there were always days where they couldn't or weren't at school or whatever, so that's what he waited for.



light rain said:


> We had a situation when our kids rode the school bus. One boy from a nearby family would often hit our kids over the head on the way home. I told our kids that tell him to stop and if he didn't, punch him square in the nose as hard as you can. We did not raise our kids to be victims, if at all possible. I believe I complained to the school. Our kids did not want to defend themselves because of the reason you stated. They didn't want to get in trouble.
> 
> Ran into the Mom of the boy at the laundromat and told her how angry I was. She said she would take care of it. Didn't happen again. The boy's older brother was a good kid. This boy committed a terrible crime years ago and went to jail.
> 
> ...


Growing up hasn't changed, has it? I did learn that the use of overwhelming force is sometimes worth the consequences. He never bothered again me after having to have a piece of my pencil removed from his arm. He never changed his ways though, he just found other people to beat up.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Cornhusker said:


> My parents never beat me and I never beat my kids.
> My dad would set us to a task for bad behavior One of his favorites was a pile of bricks.
> That one started when my brother threw a toy truck through a window.
> Dad took us to the pile of bricks and made us throw them as far as we could, then when all 300 were thrown, we'd go throw them back. This process was repeated until we were too wore out to throw anything through a window.
> ...


Haha, reading through your post, as you came to the part where you said, "Not sure why I always suffered the punishment for his crimes." I immediately thought, "sounds like what they do to us in USMC bootcamp."

Then I came to, "I think Dad may have learned his parenting when he was in The Marines " and burst out laughing.

*edit * your dad was just building unit cohesion


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HDRider said:


> I hate that story on so many levels. Boys should be held accountable for that kind of abuse, and parents should be trained on how to end it as soon as it revels itself.
> 
> On behalf of all boys that liked girls, and used the classic note method: Do you like me: Yes or No - Check one, I am so sorry


Aw, you were one of the sweet boys. I always checked "no" though, cause, you know, cooties.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> Aw, you were one of the sweet boys. I always checked "no" though, cause, you know, cooties.


I was quite charming.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HDRider said:


> I was quite charming.


I bet you were


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Cornhusker said:


> My parents never beat me and I never beat my kids.
> My dad would set us to a task for bad behavior One of his favorites was a pile of bricks.
> That one started when my brother threw a toy truck through a window.
> Dad took us to the pile of bricks and made us throw them as far as we could, then when all 300 were thrown, we'd go throw them back. This process was repeated until we were too wore out to throw anything through a window.
> ...


But of course you were there good one.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

mreynolds said:


> But of course you were there good one.


I was the good one and the pretty one


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Actually, I don't want to leave you with a bad impression of my brother.
He raised 4 daughters by himself, no help from anybody, financially or otherwise.
He and his wife take care of old people around the community, take them to Dr. appointments, make sure their house is clean, take them grocery shopping, etc.
If anybody needs help with anything he's always there to lend a hand.
I tease him about being a politician, but his thought was, if you can complain about how things are run in your county, you can run for office and fix what needs fixed.
He takes care of his 6 grandkids when their parents have to work, and they just think he's the greatest.
He can build or fix anything.
He's also one of the smartest people I've ever known.
Just thought I'd let you know that he turned out OK


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

*How Hardwired Is Human Behavior?*

Nigel Nicholson

"The success of _**** sapiens_ was no fluke. The greatly enlarged brain of the species made survival in the unpredictable environment of Africa’s vast Savannah Plain possible. Much of that brain’s programming was already in place, an inheritance from prehuman ancestors. But eventually, thanks to natural selection, other “circuits” developed, specifically those that helped human beings survive and reproduce as clan-living hunter-foragers.

For most of our history, this is how people lived, until *their world radically changed with the invention of agriculture approximately 10,000 years ago*. This suddenly allowed people to accumulate wealth and live in larger numbers and in greater concentrations, and freed many from hand-to-mouth subsistence. From this agricultural period, fast and short steps have brought us to modern civilization, with its enormous social changes wrought by advanced technology and communications.

But evolutionary psychologists assert there are three reasons that these changes have not stimulated further human evolution. First, as far back as 50,000 years ago, humans had become so scattered across the planet that beneficial new genetic mental mutations could not possibly spread. Second, there has been no consistent new environmental pressure on people that requires further evolution. 

In other words, no eruptions of volcanoes or glaciers plowing south have so changed the weather or the food supply that people’s brain circuitry has been forced to evolve. Third, 10,000 years is insufficient time for significant genetic modifications to become established across the population. 

*Thus, evolutionary psychologists argue that although the world has changed, human beings have not."

https://hbr.org/1998/07/how-hardwired-is-human-behavior*


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mish said:


> From the paddling? No.
> 
> The paddling situation stemmed from me being tortured by a certain boy for several years. Pulling my hair in school, pinching me from his desk behind me, following me home from school and throwing rocks at me, sometimes grabbing me and punching me in the stomach, you know, the kind of thing you complain about as a girl and everyone says the abuse is just because he likes me, I should enjoy being tortured. Nobody would stop him, including teachers. It escalated over time, until one day, he was sitting at his desk behind mine, poking me with a pencil in the back, over and over (I got in trouble for audibly telling him to stop, for disrupting class). I finally snapped, turned around, and stabbed him in the forearm as hard as I could with my pencil and broke the tip of the pencil off in his arm (I've told that story before, just not the lead up to it).
> 
> ...


Fast forward twenty (or so) years (2002), our oldest was a junior in high school, a senior kept harassing her, snapping her bra, calling her a ****. She put up with it for a month, all the while reporting him to school admin. He continued to harass her, but he was a football player and it was the beginning of school. He grabbed her breast. She hauled off and popped him in the face (he outweighed her by at least 60 lbs), as he was clutching his face, she kicked him in the genitals. He went down like a ton a bricks. Both of them were sent to the principal, both were given in school suspension at an inner city school for a week. My daughter was legitimately scared to go to that school, a friend had been badly beaten the year before. I called the principal and told her that my daughter wasn't going to the school, she could have her suspension at her own school or she can stay home with me. She had a hissy fit and said she was the principal and that's what was going to happen. I said, I have an attorney all lined up for the sexual harassment lawsuit you and the school forced my daughter to endure for the last month. It's your call. She stayed home with me and worked on the farm. 

I like to think that a sexual assault would be handled differently now.

And don't mess with farm girls.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> *How Hardwired Is Human Behavior?*
> 
> Nigel Nicholson
> 
> ...



With the invention of agriculture it caused all those hunter/gathers to lose their jobs. The first unemployment numbers.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> And don't mess with farm girls.


A dude hit my daughter. It wasn't pretty either. 

For him I mean.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Fast forward twenty (or so) years (2002), our oldest was a junior in high school, a senior kept harassing her, snapping her bra, calling her a ****. She put up with it for a month, all the while reporting him to school admin. He continued to harass her, but he was a football player and it was the beginning of school. He grabbed her breast. She hauled off and popped him in the face (he outweighed her by at least 60 lbs), as he was clutching his face, she kicked him in the genitals. He went down like a ton a bricks. Both of them were sent to the principal, both were given in school suspension at an inner city school for a week. My daughter was legitimately scared to go to that school, a friend had been badly beaten the year before. I called the principal and told her that my daughter wasn't going to the school, she could have her suspension at her own school or she can stay home with me. She had a hissy fit and said she was the principal and that's what was going to happen. I said, I have an attorney all lined up for the sexual harassment lawsuit you and the school forced my daughter to endure for the last month. It's your call. She stayed home with me and worked on the farm.
> 
> I like to think that a sexual assault would be handled differently now.


Good for you! Sad that it has to get to the point of threatening lawsuits for anything to be done. The zero tolerance without looking at circumstances in schools drives me nuts, too, especially when they help escalate the situation by ignoring it.



Irish Pixie said:


> And don't mess with farm girls.


Especially ones from genetic backgrounds known to have short tempers and quick hands (and feet!).


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I like to think that a sexual assault would be handled differently now.
> 
> And don't mess with farm girls.


Many rapes are prevented by women armed with firearms.

http://extranosalley.com/how-many-rapes-are-stopped-each-year-by-a-gun/



> In the early 1990’s a study concluded that 650 rapes a day were stopped because the victim was – or may have been – armed. But the number of women who carry, and the number of homes with guns, is much higher now.
> 
> The latest prisoners surveys estimate that *3,600 rapes a day* *are never attempted because the victim either showed a gun, said she had a gun, or the rapist thought the victim had a gun for some other reason.*
> 
> So one way or the other, guns prevent 3,600 rapes a day, or more than 1.3 million rapes a year.


Some would like to take that right away.
Don't mess with *armed* girls.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Many rapes are prevented by women armed with firearms.
> 
> http://extranosalley.com/how-many-rapes-are-stopped-each-year-by-a-gun/
> 
> ...


Where was rape mentioned? Can you point it out please?

She didn't need a gun, her fist and leg worked very, very well. Plus it was on school grounds (in 2002) and it was illegal to carry, and she was a minor.

You used my post to drag guns into yet another post. Do you know another tune?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> With the invention of agriculture it caused all those hunter/gathers to lose their jobs. The first unemployment numbers.


Actually the hunters still hunt, more for sport now, the gathers formed a union and protest regularly for $15 per hour.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Where was rape mentioned? Can you point it out please?
> 
> She didn't need a gun, her fist and leg worked very, very well. Plus it was on school grounds (in 2002) and it was illegal to carry, and she was a minor.
> 
> You used my post to drag guns into yet another post. Do you know another tune?


I can whistle Dixie.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> I can whistle Dixie.


Now that's just racist! LOL!


----------



## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

light rain said:


> Mass shootings by young white males have, without a doubt, have increased.


Black on Black Shootings have without a doubt increased - mainly done by young black males.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Mish said:


> From the paddling? No.
> 
> The paddling situation stemmed from me being tortured by a certain boy for several years. Pulling my hair in school, pinching me from his desk behind me, following me home from school and throwing rocks at me, sometimes grabbing me and punching me in the stomach, you know, the kind of thing you complain about as a girl and everyone says the abuse is just because he likes me, I should enjoy being tortured. Nobody would stop him, including teachers. It escalated over time, until one day, he was sitting at his desk behind mine, poking me with a pencil in the back, over and over (I got in trouble for audibly telling him to stop, for disrupting class). I finally snapped, turned around, and stabbed him in the forearm as hard as I could with my pencil and broke the tip of the pencil off in his arm (I've told that story before, just not the lead up to it).
> 
> ...


Well now that I know *why* you were at the principal's office, it makes a heckuva lot more sense.
You wouldn't be from the hills of NC would ya?
Leaving out the most important detail is one of the most common things people do around here, lol.

But I think you may have missed a detail in one of those lessons.
I'll go ahead and ask first though.
Did the boy you defending yourself from ever try anything again?
If not, the HE was taught the lesson about quick physical correction and you were the teacher,


I took a similar punishment for defending my little brother on the school bus one time. Got hit by the principal and hit again by the eldest sister behind the gym.
She was quite a bit bigger and rang my ears so hard I could't hear for 15 minutes.
Took it like as man, so they say, and refused to lay a hand on her.
Know why?
That lesson came about 5 years earlier, one of the handful I learned the hard way but never forgot.
I'm 55 now and never laid a hand on a woman in anger, no matter how mad I get.

You can chastise the method, but it's hard to argue with the results.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> Well now that I know *why* you were at the principal's office, it makes a heckuva lot more sense.
> You wouldn't be from the hills of NC would ya?


Nope, the corn fields of Ohio 



farmrbrown said:


> Leaving out the most important detail is one of the most common things people do around here, lol.
> 
> But I think you may have missed a detail in one of those lessons.
> I'll go ahead and ask first though.
> ...


He didn't try anything with me again, but he did move on to other victims.



farmrbrown said:


> I took a similar punishment for defending my little brother on the school bus one time. Got hit by the principal and hit again by the eldest sister behind the gym.
> She was quite a bit bigger and rang my ears so hard I could't hear for 15 minutes.
> Took it like as man, so they say, and refused to lay a hand on her.
> Know why?
> ...


Maybe you learned something from being hit by an adult (although it sounds like you already knew that lesson before she hit you as you said you didn't hit her back - and it sounds like overkill on her part to me), but I only had negative results.

Absolutely got a positive result from stabbing a pencil into my tormentor's arm, he finally left me alone. The paddling had only negative effects on me, and I learned nothing from it except that adults can't be trusted to listen or understand and that I'd have to handle things myself in the future. Next time I decided to launch the nukes, there wouldn't be an adult around to hit me for it.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Where was rape mentioned? Can you point it out please?


Rape is "sexual assault". 



Irish Pixie said:


> She didn't need a gun, her fist and leg worked very, very well. Plus it was on school grounds (in 2002) and it was illegal to carry, and she was a minor.


Not everything is about you and yours.



Irish Pixie said:


> You used my post to drag guns into yet another post. Do you know another tune?


The OP is about guns.
The thread is about guns.

This is the first sentence in the thread:



mnn2501 said:


> In the 1950's and 1960's (adjusted for population growth) there were just as many people with *guns* as there are today, yet there were no mass *shootings* like there are today.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Actually the hunters still hunt, more for sport now, the gathers formed a union and protest regularly for $15 per hour.


Yes, but meat was for 1%ers only back then.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Mish said:


> Nope, the corn fields of Ohio


It's funny. The daughter I mentioned was a stepdaughter. She was from Dallas like my wife. First day of school in the country (she was 13 and had been running with gangs) she said "I will show these corn fed girls how the cow ate the cabbage."

After a few black eyes, by the time she was 18, she was riding the back roads and partying at the river. A few yeehaws came out of her mouth. She hates the city now.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Mish, I'm sorry that happened to you. Even when my kids were in school the situation wasn't better. Report a bully and the abuse gets worse. Defend yourself and you get in trouble. 

We took our kids for karate lessons when they were young. Both hubby and I had dealt with bully problems when we were in school. We wanted our kids to be capable of defending themselves if necessary. On the occasion where self defense was necessary, one of us was available to defend our child.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Something to think about:


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Mish said:


> Nope, the corn fields of Ohio
> 
> 
> 
> He didn't try anything with me again, but he did move on to other victims.


Well, then he did learn the lesson you taught him and probably needed to have it a 2nd or 3rd time to make it permanent.
This goes to the core of what some of us "old schoolers" have said about this supposedly "new" phenomenon of bullying.
We didn't shoot up the whole school, we punched that bully right in the nose and stopped that foolishness with the quickness.




> Maybe you learned something from being hit by an adult (although it sounds like you already knew that lesson before she hit you as you said you didn't hit her back - and it sounds like overkill on her part to me), but I only had negative results.


Yes I did, but maybe I should explain it better.
I got my tail tanned by my dad one day when I whacked a girl in elementary school. She was bigger and chasing me ( heck, I'm still smaller than a lot of women now, lol) but I was "taught" that was no excuse - ever.
I DID learn that lesson the way your 1st sentence reads.
It worked wonderfully.
And the bolded sentence below is one more example of what works even as people deny the obvious........




> *Absolutely got a positive result from stabbing a pencil into my tormentor's arm, he finally left me alone. * The paddling had only negative effects on me, and I learned nothing from it except that adults can't be trusted to listen or understand and that I'd have to handle things myself in the future. Next time I decided to launch the nukes, there wouldn't be an adult around to hit me for it.



Yep, some people are stupid as adults, that can't be helped. But I learned the same thing too.
Do what you gotta do to make things right and keep it quiet.
That works too.


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

The article points out the shooters have emulated the killers at Columbine. When you look at the killers you can see issues with their childhood. 

The Parkland killer was raised by his mother and placed in a foster home after his death. He had issues at school. Both local law enforcement and the FBI had reports about him. Neither acted. At the very least a judge should have issued a search warrant. That would have led to the gun that the foster family knew nothing about. Wray promised an investigation of the FBI failure.

The Dayton killer was suspended from school on two occasions for bringing a rape list to school and a hit list.

The El Paso killer was reported by his own mother.

Based on the incidents we need a legal requirement for school officials to report incidents to police for investigation. Same with medical personnel with changes to HIPPA. We also need a policy enacted in law that requires law enforcement to get search warrants and investigate. The policy needs to enumerate situations that require reports to the FBI so that the person of interest in placed into the database as a person prohibited for buying a firearm.

Later if the person wants his second amendment rights restored they submit to testing by qualified medical personnel with the results sent to the judge handling the case. The judge can then either issue an order or not based on the testing for the FBI to remove the individual's name from the database.

The federal government needs to provide grants to police departments to pay for the personnel to handle the additional burden where needed.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Rape is "sexual assault".
> 
> 
> Not everything is about you and yours.
> ...


My post, which you responded to, did not mention rape, the sex assault in this post was the grabbing of a breast without consent, it was very plainly stated. And my post never mentioned guns. Why did you single out my post to respond to? Can you explain?

Also, the original post mentioned guns, it was not the only topic. Can you explain why you didn't know it was illegal to carry on school grounds (in 2002), and she was a minor? Thanks. 

Or is it just same old, same old?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> I can whistle Dixie.


I'll bet that impressed the girls back in the day.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

When I went to high school, I came from a country school.
Nobody knew us, so they picked on us quite a bit.
We had never had to deal with bullies up to that time, and it took a while to figure it out.
One of them punched me so hard I had a hole clear through my lip, I pushed him down the stairs.
Yup, I was in trouble.
Another guy tried to hit me just as we went into study hall. He missed, and I beat him to the floor and kept on beating him until the teacher showed up.
In trouble again.
I didn't always get the upper hand, but I always fought back, and with one exception, I'm friends with all of my antagonists.
Never felt the need to shoot any of them.


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

HDRider said:


> I was quite charming.


What do you mean "was". what happened to ya!?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'll bet that impressed the girls back in the day.


Especially when some cute northern girl moved in...


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> What do you mean "was". what happened to ya!?


I had to curb my appeal, throttle back a little


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Darren said:


> The El Paso killer was reported by his own mother.


That's not quite the whole truth.

She called police "weeks before the shooting" because she was "concerned" that her 21 year old son had bought an AK type rifle but had little to no experience with them. 

She was told he was old enough to buy the gun legally and there was nothing they could do. 

She didn't give his or her name, and she was not saying he was going to commit any crimes.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/patric...lled-allen-texas-police-about-son-2019-08-08/

"The mother of El Paso shooting suspect 21-year-old Patrick Crusius called police in Allen, Texas, weeks before the deadly shooting, because her son owned an AK 47-style assault rifle, CBS News has confirmed.

The family's attorney, Chris Ayres, said the phone call was "purely informational," and that *there was "absolutely no fear of violence nor any belief of an intent to do harm" that led Crusius' mother to call police*.

The lawyer added that Crusius did not identify herself or her son to police when she made the call, and that the department did not file the call or follow up on it."


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'll bet that impressed the girls back in the day.


It still does impress the best ones.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It still does impress the best ones.


Who do you mean by "the best ones"?


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

HDRider said:


> I had to curb my appeal, throttle back a little


Got married?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> Got married?


You got me.


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

HDRider said:


> You got me.


Well, marriage has its pros and cons! 
Don't forget to share your charm with your spouse!


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> Well, marriage has its pros and cons!
> Don't forget to share your charm with your spouse!


She has been enthralled for over 40 years now


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> *Who do you mean* by "the best ones"?


The best ones.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The best ones.


An echo?


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> An echo?


An answer.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> An answer.


If you say so...


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> If you say so...


You have to define "best" for yourself.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> You have to define "best" for yourself.


I'll agree with that.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

A problem that seems to defy solution may not be a problem at all, but rather a fact. Not to be solved, but to be dealt with over time.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> *If *you say so...


It's an answer regardless of what anyone says.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> an extrinsic consequence doesn't teach right from wrong
> 
> it teaches : if you do something the adult doesn't like, they will hit you because they have no self control over themselves and don't know how to properly teach anything.
> 
> ...



Even in self defense?


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Mish said:


> My parents were of the school of thought that kids should handle kid stuff - at least that's what they said. I think they didn't want to have to bother to deal with it. Which would be fine if the other kid didn't outweigh me by about 40 lbs, and I wasn't a girl raised by pacifist hippies (meaning I don't know how to fight) trying to fight a boy in a higher weight class.
> 
> I had some girlfriends who would go out of their way to walk home with me most days, since he couldn't beat all of us. But there were always days where they couldn't or weren't at school or whatever, so that's what he waited for.
> 
> ...


Do you wonder how his adult life turned out?


----------



## Tammy1 (Aug 31, 2011)

I believe there are over 320M people in the US. If 99.99% were great people that would leave us with about 1/2 Million that are bad. ( yes, you can pick this apart about how many people are in prison but they are not all murders, at least I hope not!) 

I am very happy to live in a society that has 99.99% of its people as great people. Unfortunately, the media want to exalt the very bad ones for profit. Profit will always care about profit and not what is best for a society. Where you place your focus is what will always grow.

Do we really not ask enough of children? Maybe we ask two much. We ask a two year, which outfit do you want to ware, what do you want to eat, where do you want to play, what do you want to play with? And they've only been up for 30 min. Why.....why does a two year old have to weight the pro's and con's of everyday life. Why can't they let the adults do that...we have stripped the child out of kids and expect them to make adult decisions with a brain that can't. Kids play violent games but they are suppose to understand that's not real world, they see sex on T.V. but they are suppose to understand that't not a real relationship. I agree with the post above. It's adults that have changed and the change in kids is a direct reflection of the change in adults. I remember hard lines in the sand when I was growing up. If you crossed them you were spanked. That was the only decision I needed to make each day. Did I want to cross that line.

I was reading an advertisement for a sewing book that was being reprinted from 1929. This was an adult sewing book and it said "Great book for kids to learn to sew" What! Kids have the brains and talent that an adult had in 1929. Historically society has expected our kids to be great at everything. But I believe they are now talking back as adults, we are seeing the backlash of "expected perfection" now we have a generation that is more tolerant of weakness and individuals being different for what ever reason. Unfortunately, we also have some imploding due to the "perfection" pressure. 

I'm kind of excited to see where this goes. When done right we are seeing parents respect and talk to their kids, to take time to explain things. It a way of raising kids that takes so much disciplined and time from the adult that many of us are not perfect at it but with each generation it will get better.


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

light rain said:


> Even in self defense? [/QUOTE
> 
> I guess thats the exception. Hadn't thought of it till you mentioned it. Was more thinking the punishment hitting.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

light rain said:


> Do you wonder how his adult life turned out?


He passed away in a car accident not long after high school, I don't remember the circumstances now. I moved out of state the day I graduated, I think one of those girlfriends who used to walk home with me was the one to let me know about it when it happened.

*Edit - Some time during high school I found out how truly horrendous his home life was, and kind of forgave him the past, at least where I was concerned. Not that we became friends or anything, but I could understand the lashing out. It made me sad to hear that he had died before he had a chance to make himself a life that was different than where he came from.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

> The mother of El Paso shooting suspect 21-year-old Patrick Crusius called police in Allen, Texas, weeks before the deadly shooting, because her son owned an AK 47-style assault rifle, CBS News has confirmed. *The family's attorney, Chris Ayres, said the phone call was "purely informational," and that there was "absolutely no fear of violence nor any belief of an intent to do harm" that led Crusius' mother to call police. *



I wonder how many people actually believe that statement?

I mean, who would call the police about their own son for "purely informational" reasons after they bought a gun?
Maybe a few out of a million, but what are the others _*really*_ thinking?


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Mish said:


> He passed away in a car accident not long after high school, I don't remember the circumstances now. I moved out of state the day I graduated, I think one of those girlfriends who used to walk home with me was the one to let me know about it when it happened.
> 
> *Edit - Some time during high school I found out how truly horrendous his home life was, and kind of forgave him the past, at least where I was concerned. Not that we became friends or anything, but I could understand the lashing out. It made me sad to hear that he had died before he had a chance to make himself a life that was different than where he came from.


It is a shame also that no one intervened in his childhood... Not family , state or neighbors...


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

farmrbrown said:


> I wonder how many people actually believe that statement?
> 
> I mean, who would call the police about their own son for "purely informational" reasons after they bought a gun?
> Maybe a few out of a million, but what are the others _*really*_ thinking?


Answer: Release the recorded phone calll. Let America make their own conclusions...


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> I wonder how many people actually believe that statement?


The police confirmed it.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

light rain said:


> Answer: Release *the recorded phone call*l.


Not all calls to police are recorded.
It's not hard to find the facts. 

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2019/08/08/el-paso-suspect-mother-called-police-son-owning-ak-type-gun/


> Allen Police Sergeant John Felty said Crusius’ mother called the department’s main line on June 27, 2019 at approximately 11:15 a.m. An internal security camera recorded one side of the conversation since *main line phone calls are not recorded.*
> 
> During the call, the mother was transferred to a public safety officer who told her that — based on her description of the situation — her son was legally allowed to purchase the weapon, the attorneys said. *The mother did not provide her name or her son’s name, and police did not seek any additional information from her before the call concluded*, they added.
> 
> However, Felty said the public safety officer answered informational questions about firearms possession and ownership and additionally inquired about the emotional state and intentions of the person who had ordered the weapon.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The police confirmed it.


And the police are always 100% truthful.  They would have had the American public and Mexican government crying for blood if they said anything more.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Danaus29 said:


> And the police are always 100% truthful.  They would have had the American public and Mexican government crying for blood if they said anything more.





Bearfootfarm said:


> Not all calls to police are recorded.
> It's not hard to find the facts.
> 
> https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2019/08/08/el-paso-suspect-mother-called-police-son-owning-ak-type-gun/


It was ambiguous whether or not it was recorded. If it wasn't recorded (because it not being on the 911 exchange) then was the police statement compiled from notes or memory?

Can the phone co. provide a copy of the call?

Still looking for the facts...


----------



## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

said on the news the call itself wasn't recorded but video of the officer lets you know what his answers were to her, so you can kind of piece it together.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The police confirmed it.


They confirmed she called.
They confirmed what she _said.
They cannot confirm what she was really thinking.




(CBSDFW.COM/CNN) – The Allen Police Department confirmed at a press conference Thursday evening that the El Paso shooter’s mother told police weeks ago that* she was concerned about her son owning an “AK” type gun.*
Saturday’s shooting at an El Paso shopping area left 22 dead and dozens injured. Patrick Crusius, 21, of Allen is suspected in the deadly rampage after police said he drove from North Texas to El Paso and went on the shooting spree at a Walmart.
According to the family’s attorneys Chris Ayres and R. Jack Ayres, the mother had contacted Allen police because *she was worried about her son owning the weapon due to his age, maturity level and lack of experience handling such a firearm.*

Click to expand...

_


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Mish said:


> He passed away in a car accident not long after high school, I don't remember the circumstances now. I moved out of state the day I graduated, I think one of those girlfriends who used to walk home with me was the one to let me know about it when it happened.
> 
> *Edit - Some time during high school I found out how truly horrendous his home life was, and kind of forgave him the past, at least where I was concerned. Not that we became friends or anything, but I could understand the lashing out. It made me sad to hear that he had died before he had a chance to make himself a life that was different than where he came from.


I knew a guy that missed the bus once. He was a loner of sorts and didn't get into trouble. I took him home in my truck and he literally lived in a tar paper shack like you would see in the slums of Jamaica or Haiti. His parents spent all their money on drugs. 

It was a real eye opener for me as a teen. I befriended him but he died of an overdose at 25. I couldn't help him out like I wanted to.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> I knew a guy that missed the bus once. He was a loner of sorts and didn't get into trouble. I took him home in my truck and he literally lived in a tar paper shack like you would see in the slums of Jamaica or Haiti. His parents spent all their money on drugs.
> 
> It was a real eye opener for me as a teen. I befriended him but he died of an overdose at 25. I couldn't help him out like I wanted to.


God, that is really sad. It's heartbreaking that people have to go through things like that.

You gave him something he probably desperately needed, I hope you don't feel like you didn't help him.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Mish said:


> God, that is really sad. It's heartbreaking that people have to go through things like that.
> 
> You gave him something he probably desperately needed, I hope you don't feel like you didn't help him.


That's what my wife says too. I cant believe parents that give their kids drugs before they are even a teenager. Another reason I am not a cop.


----------



## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

We have some messed up adults. Here where we live, it’s pretty common for at least one person in the family to be a drug addict, even in what might be considered a “good family”. I know several grandparents raising their grandkids because the parents are too stoned to care. I also know there is a stash house down our country lane that supplies all the dope heads around here. I know it, all my neighbor’s know it because they warned me last year when we moved in, yet no one does anything. I wave at the supplier as he passes my house to make his twice a week delivery and then I wave at the many cars who come by only to go back the other way 10 minutes later. Locals go on FB talking about being proud they are clean for X number of days while the local paper posts their photo when they get picked up again. It’s like boot legging in the old days. It’s the culture so no one wants to make waves including myself. I hear the mom’s screaming at the kids in Walmart and the food pantry begging for Christmas gifts for the kids and I wonder, what kind of life will this next generation have! They are raised in abuse and neglect and expect no more out of life. Even if they don’t shoot up something, they have little motivation to do better than the worthless parents who raised them. We and all the other kids in the community grew up poor but we didn’t come from the pit of hell like I see these little kids being raised in and I don’t think it is just my community.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Interesting that the Allen police department serving in excess of 80,000 people can remember the contents of a unimportant non recorded police call.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> They confirmed she called.
> They confirmed what she _said.
> They cannot confirm what she was really thinking._


She didn't call to report any fears he was going to shoot someone.



Danaus29 said:


> And the police are always 100% truthful.


They are as "truthful" as any other humans.

I know they are more truthful than some here.
I've seen the evidence of that.

Had she reported a possible threat, it would have been investigated.
Multiple people have said she only called for information.

I have no reason to believe the internet speculation over the documented facts.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Redlands Okie said:


> Interesting that the Allen police department serving in excess of 80,000 people can remember the contents of a unimportant non recorded police call.


One side of the call was "recorded" on a security camera.

The fact the conversation wasn't "recorded" in audio form doesn't mean they didn't have notes on the call and the subject matter.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'll agree with that.


I'm pretty sure he meant Nebraska girls.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

light rain said:


> Can the phone co. provide a copy of the call?


The phone company doesn't record conversations.
They save metadata.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> She didn't call to report any fears he was going to shoot someone.
> 
> 
> They are as "truthful" as any other humans.
> ...


Yep, that's the story and I guarantee she's sticking to it as well as the police.
Considering what happened, why wouldn't they?
But that wasn't what I asked.
I know what the official version of the story is, I asked how many believe it?
So far, I see one person who does.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> I know what the official version of the story is, I asked how many believe it?


You've shown no logical reason not to believe it.
I have no reason to doubt their credibility.
I have many reasons to doubt yours.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You've shown no logical reason not to believe it.


I only offered one reason, logic is the eye of the beholder. 


farmrbrown said:


> I wonder how many people actually believe that statement?
> 
> I mean, who would call the police about their own son for "purely informational" reasons after they bought a gun?
> Maybe a few out of a million, but what are the others _*really*_ thinking?





> I have no reason to doubt their credibility.
> I have many reasons to doubt yours.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> I only offered one reason, logic is the eye of the beholder.


You offered speculation.



> I mean, who would call the police about their own son for "purely informational" reasons after they bought a gun?


I'll stick with the documented evidence.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You offered speculation.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll stick with the documented evidence.



That's true, I speculated based on what I already knew about police departments.
And I looked for documentation to confirm it or not.
Maybe you can find something that I couldn't, such as "Reasons for non emergency police calls".
https://www.elpasotexas.gov/police-department/telephone-reporting-unit



> *TO FILE A NON-EMERGENCY REPORT ON THE TELEPHONE:*
> 
> This is not an Emergency?
> No one has been injured?
> ...


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Interesting that the Allen police department serving in excess of 80,000 people can remember the contents of a unimportant non recorded police call.


Yep. Makes you wonder...


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The phone company doesn't record conversations.
> They save metadata.


What is metadata?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

light rain said:


> What is metadata?


Data about data

Metadata is "data [information] that provides information about other data".


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Data about data
> 
> Metadata is "data [information] that provides information about other data".


Like what kind? I still don't understand the specifics.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

light rain said:


> What is metadata?


It's stuff like who called whom, how long the call lasted etc. not the conversations.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

light rain said:


> Like what kind? I still don't understand the specifics.


I have heard the term for years. It is hard for me to understand, so even harder to explain. I always satisfied myself with "data about data". 

So, I turn to our friend Google - A simple *example of metadata* for a document might include a collection of information like the author, file size, date the document was created, and keywords to describe the document.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

light rain said:


> What is metadata?


The type of information that includes the number that placed the call, the number that received the call, the time it was placed and it's duration. 
It does not include the content of the call.


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The type of information that includes the number that placed the call, the number that received the call, the time it was placed and it's duration.


OK. Thanks. Not a who lotta info except that there was a call and who it was from...


----------



## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

HDRider said:


> I have heard the term for years. It is hard for me to understand, so even harder to explain. I always satisfied myself with "data about data".
> 
> So, I turn to our friend Google - A simple *example of metadata* for a document might include a collection of information like the author, file size, date the document was created, and keywords to describe the document.


Thanks! Would it be that difficult to record all phone calls with our current technology or is the information not feasibly storable?


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> That's true, I speculated based on what I already knew about police departments.
> And I looked for documentation to confirm it or not.
> *Maybe you can find something that I couldn't*, such as "Reasons for non emergency police calls".


We already know the reason she called.
She wanted to ask questions.

You're link is irrelevant trivia about "filing reports".


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

light rain said:


> Would it be that difficult to record all phone calls with our current technology or is the information not feasibly storable?


It's "possible" calls are recorded and stored but it would pretty much be pointless since most of them would be boring, mindless, useless chatter. It would also be a huge invasion of privacy.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

light rain said:


> Thanks! Would it be that difficult to record all phone calls with our current technology or is the information not feasibly storable?


We could do anything, with enough time and money.

It would be huuuuuuuuge to record all calls. Huge.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's "possible" calls are recorded and stored but it would pretty much be pointless since most of them would be boring, mindless, useless chatter. It would also be a huge invasion of privacy.


Remember Carnivore?
THE FBI HAS used Internet eavesdropping tools to track fugitives, drug dealers, extortionists, computer hackers and suspected foreign intelligence agents, documents show.

The documents, obtained by The Associated Press under the Freedom of Information Act, also detail how the FBI scurried last year to prove it wasn't "randomly looking at everyone's e-mail" once its Web surveillance practices came under attack.

The FBI records show the agency used its controversial Carnivore system 13 times between October 1999 and August 2000 to monitor Internet communications​Every day collection systems at the National Security Agency intercept and store 1.7 billion e-mails, phone calls and other types of communications.
https://www.techhive.com/article/20...ds-and-stores-every-phone-call-and-email.html


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> We already know the reason she called.
> She wanted to ask questions.
> 
> You're link is irrelevant trivia about "filing reports".


Actually it was the El Paso police department's website about non emergency calls, I found it relevant. 
And we DO know the reason she called. Turns out she was right to be concerned.

_(CBSDFW.COM/CNN) – The Allen Police Department confirmed at a press conference Thursday evening that the El Paso shooter’s mother told police weeks ago that* she was concerned about her son owning an “AK” type gun.*
Saturday’s shooting at an El Paso shopping area left 22 dead and dozens injured. Patrick Crusius, 21, of Allen is suspected in the deadly rampage after police said he drove from North Texas to El Paso and went on the shooting spree at a Walmart.
According to the family’s attorneys Chris Ayres and R. Jack Ayres, the mother had contacted Allen police because *she was worried about her son owning the weapon due to his age, maturity level and lack of experience handling such a firearm.*_


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Remember Carnivore?


Yes, and there was another one too called Echelon.

There are many more listed here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government_mass_surveillance_projects


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> Actually it was the El Paso police department's website about non emergency calls, I found it relevant.


It wasn't relevant regarding *her* reason for calling.
She only wanted to ask questions, not report any crimes or threats to others.
You're simply repeating what I posted earlier, thinking the end result will be different.



farmrbrown said:


> I found it relevant.


It would be had it listed *every *possible reason to use that number, but it didn't.
It's just a general guideline, not related to the context of her call in any way, which is why it's irrelevant.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It wasn't relevant regarding *her* reason for calling.
> She only wanted to ask questions, not report any crimes or threats to others.


Yeah, that's what made the story so unusual - or incredible.
I guess you noticed that's not what people usually used that phone number for, huh?



> You're simply repeating what I posted earlier, thinking the end result will be different.


THAT I can believe, lol.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> Yeah, that's what made the story so unusual - or incredible.
> I guess you noticed that's *not what people usually used that phone number for*, huh?


Again, that is totally irrelevant.

You can't say what people "usually" use the number for based on a few examples they gave on their site about how it should be used. 

You also can't say her call had to be one of those reasons.

It's simply used for anything that's not an emergency.

You just keep repeating yourself and thinking the outcome will change.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You just keep repeating yourself and thinking the outcome will change.



That cuts both ways.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> That cuts both ways.


I don't expect the outcome to change.
Patterns never change.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> Actually it was the El Paso police department's website about non emergency calls, I found it relevant.
> And we DO know the reason she called. Turns out she was right to be concerned.
> 
> _(CBSDFW.COM/CNN) – The Allen Police Department confirmed at a press conference Thursday evening that the El Paso shooter’s mother told police weeks ago that* she was concerned about her son owning an “AK” type gun.*
> ...


Apparently even without much experience he figured out how to use it.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Apparently even without much experience he figured out how to use it.


Yeah.
Good thing mom called just to make sure.


----------

