# Do the vaccines Really Reduce Hospitalization and Death?



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

This is a serious question. In terms of protecting me from getting infected with the Sars-Cov2 virus, I don't see any benefit. The question really is do vaccines result in a less serious case of Covid-19?

If there actually is a significant reduction in hospitalization and death, it would probably be the right option for people at high risk.

I haven't seen any data on this that I trust, although there very well could be studies I don't know about. And when they use relative risk, it is even harder to determine what protection, if any, the vaccines provide.


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

I doubt this vaccine. If anything it seems to spread things rather than behaving like a traditional vaccine should.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

MoonRiver said:


> This is a serious question. In terms of protecting me from getting infected with the Sars-Cov2 virus, I don't see any benefit. The question really is do vaccines result in a less serious case of Covid-19?
> 
> If there actually is a significant reduction in hospitalization and death, it would probably be the right option for people at high risk.
> 
> I haven't seen any data on this that I trust, although there very well could be studies I don't know about. And when they use relative risk, it is even harder to determine what protection, if any, the vaccines provide.


All of the sources promoting it have proven themselves to be untrustworthy IMHO.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

The ”vaccine” is useless. Worse than useless, it causes the virus to spread due to ppl assume ing they are untouchable. And the number of ppl with terrible reactions and deaths is a bit too high for my liking.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> This is a serious question. In terms of protecting me from getting infected with the Sars-Cov2 virus, I don't see any benefit. The question really is do vaccines result in a less serious case of Covid-19?
> 
> If there actually is a significant reduction in hospitalization and death, it would probably be the right option for people at high risk.
> 
> I haven't seen any data on this that I trust, although there very well could be studies I don't know about. And when they use relative risk, it is even harder to determine what protection, if any, the vaccines provide.


Moon you are as good a Ducker as anyone.







I have to think you looked.

I doubt the answer to that question exists.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

We will know in a few decades. It’s MUCH too early to hope for data and reliable analysis.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> We will know in a few decades. It’s MUCH too early to hope for data and reliable analysis.


We'll know the history the victors of the battle want us to know in a few decades.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

You all better watch your typing. The vaccine nazis will be along to tell us how we are making this political and being hysterical about spreading our self-serving propaganda.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Danaus29 said:


> You all better watch your typing. The vaccine nazis will be along to tell us how we are making this political and being hysterical about spreading our self-serving propaganda.


With all of the fervor of someone named Karen that is involved with an essential oil mid-level-marketing scheme.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

HDRider said:


> Moon you are as good a Ducker as anyone. I have to think you looked.
> 
> I doubt the answer to that question exists.


I was leaning towards it being propaganda like much of the covid information is, but I have recently heard several doctors who treat Covid patients say that the unvaccinated patients tend to have more severe cases than the vaccinated.

I have been disappointed we are not seeing more studies that compare the vaccines. Now that people can mix vaccines it makes it that much harder to determine if one is more effective (or dangerous) than another.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I admit there are no propaganda stories about how vaccinated people spent weeks in the hospital, sick with covid. I see the stories about unvaccinated people in the hospital or dieing from covid every day.

It still does not help us get past the pandemic when vaccinated people still get sick with covid and spread covid.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> say that the unvaccinated patients tend to have more severe cases than the vaccinated.


That is the popular narrative. But I have not seen data.

The headline is typically saying the unvaccinated are overwhelming hospitals


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Consider that there are two castes of people. One is comprised of movers and shakers that are in public circulation quite a bit. Some of them probably caught one of the wuflu family of diseases before it much more than grabbed the first headline. The other group has spent this time hiding, wearing a mask, wringing hands slathered in hand sanitizer, ordering from grub hub. The second group might include those who are older, more prone to heart disease, diabetes, maybe ever so slightly more prone to being overweight. The disease family is new. Nobody has so much as an antiquated copy of an antibody. The first group, if they survive the disease, have antibodies that are highly effective against the strain that they contracted. The second group, if they got vaccinated, can make antibodies based on a part of a copy of the original model that the vaccines were based on. Every strain that comes through, of strains that are multiplying exponentially, can be recognized more rapidly by someone with antibodies for the original

In some cases, the virus proliferates enough to do severe damage to things like lung tissue, before the body can mount an immune response and produce antibodies in sufficient quantities to stop the infection. If the damage is too severe, the virus particles that are tagged by antibodies can't be picked up by white blood cells that clean them up, because the white blood cells can't get there because of damage and inflammation. this is where you end up in the hospital on a ventilator. 

If you are part of the second group of people, and you decided to forgo the vaccine, it's going to be a brand new experience and it's going to be a crap shoot, if you have any underlying conditions, it could be bad. Unless you already had it and thought it was just a cold, as can be the case. If you get a variant, it's still a brand new experience for your body, which will have to start from scratch. Your slow lumbering giant white blood cells are going to have to stumble into a virus particle, trap it, study it, and begin manufacturing antibodies that are shaped perfectly to fit the virus shape like puzzle piece. Once there are enough antibodies produced, they will latch onto any virus that they come across, preveting it from attaching to a living cell and causing that cell to replicate the virus until it is spent. The white blood cells scoop up viruses that have been trapped by an antibody. The white blood cells also make additional antibodies. All these things take time, and time might be precious to you if you are at risk of serious complications for infection. 

When new variants come along, the puzzle piece might not fit quite right, and you spend that precious time again, making the correct interlocking shape for an antibody. If it's still similar enough, it might do a good enough job to get the ball rolling The antibodies that are formed as a result of the vaccine are based on a part of the whole virus. If the variant is different enough in that part, it could be almost totally ineffective. But it could give you enough time to start making antibodies for the variant you are exposed to before serious damage is done. It's not great, but it's the best we can do at this time. 

If you haven't had the virus, or the vaccine, and you are at risk of serious complications, if it were me, I would go get the shot. I fell like I personally have had the original and a couple of variants, based on symptoms, and other people in the same circles getting tests. Not worried personally, as I'm not at huge risk of serious complications, to my current knowledge. But if you get it, it's going to be a brand new experience and you don't know how you will react. Some shot in the dark miniscule antibody response is better than starting from nothing. You could wait until there is a really mild variant going around and go lick all the doorknobs, but the quack doctor vaccine that we won't be able to see the test results from for 50 years is the best thing that we have short of infection. Maybe pick a time that your local hospital has extra room and go visit someone who has tested positive and is sick, get the jab, or hide out in a cave the rest of your life, those are your three options at this time.


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## Wellbuilt (Dec 25, 2020)

Funny thing is I’m not talking to any one that can say they know of a lot of people dying vaxed or not vaxed ? 
I know lots of people that have had it , a few where hospitalized for a fewdays and where released . Very strange
I know lots of doctors and nurses but they don’t really know what’s happening , no one is talking


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

People that live in isolated areas, that typically have little trust for governments and doctors, have little reason to extend their trust at this time. They may not be in the best of health, and it might not be incredibly hard to overwhelm the hospitals they have access to. Now that vaccinated tourists are traveling into these areas once again, many of them are probably being infected for the first time, and being mostly unvaccinated, and having not been previously infected, the ones that are having serious side effects from infection probably are overwhelming their hospitals.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Fill in your favorite speculation below:






Thank you.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

Daughter is a doctor doing internal med residency. It’s hard to tell the patient and family where this goes once admitted. Vast majority coming in are unvaccinated.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

barnbilder said:


> Consider that there are two castes of people. One is comprised of movers and shakers that are in public circulation quite a bit. Some of them probably caught one of the wuflu family of diseases before it much more than grabbed the first headline. The other group has spent this time hiding, wearing a mask, wringing hands slathered in hand sanitizer, ordering from grub hub. The second group might include those who are older, more prone to heart disease, diabetes, maybe ever so slightly more prone to being overweight. The disease family is new. Nobody has so much as an antiquated copy of an antibody. The first group, if they survive the disease, have antibodies that are highly effective against the strain that they contracted. The second group, if they got vaccinated, can make antibodies based on a part of a copy of the original model that the vaccines were based on. Every strain that comes through, of strains that are multiplying exponentially, can be recognized more rapidly by someone with antibodies for the original
> 
> In some cases, the virus proliferates enough to do severe damage to things like lung tissue, before the body can mount an immune response and produce antibodies in sufficient quantities to stop the infection. If the damage is too severe, the virus particles that are tagged by antibodies can't be picked up by white blood cells that clean them up, because the white blood cells can't get there because of damage and inflammation. this is where you end up in the hospital on a ventilator.
> 
> ...


I felt sure I had it about 3 weeks ago, so I had an antibodies test and I didn't. My antibodies are about 105 (don't remember the measurement scale) which was from my J&J vaccine almost 6 months ago. As far as I know, there hasn't been any data published as to how high antibodies should be to indicate protection from serious disease. I know 105 is low, but I don't know if it is still protective.

I also take Ivermectin, zinc and quercetin, vitamin D level is high, use a povidone-based nasal spray, and a mouthwash that kills viruses. I also have black seed oil and honey ready if I get any symptoms.

After 2 years with this virus, it's criminal that more data is not available.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

No idea on my end . One nephew and I did the injectable ivermectin and orally. Left over from the cows. I did the J&J too. He tested positive and I never went to get tested...


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## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

We just buried my fully vaccinated FIL this afternoon....The Dr seems to think it ws a vaccine reaction.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

My nieces lost their step grandfather, before the vaccine was available. One of my neighbors, elderly and in bad shape, died from the virus but I don't know his vax status. Last month hubby lost 2 family members. One a nursing home resident so most likely vaccinated. The other was one of her children, most likely vaccinated so he could visit the nursing home.

I will say this about the Ohio breakthrough case dashboard. Cases are counted, both vaxxed and unvaxxed, from Jan 1. It would be more informative if it ran from the time the vaccines were widely available instead. Including the time when most people could not get the shot is very misleading as a comparison.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

CKelly78z said:


> We just buried my fully vaccinated FIL this afternoon....The Dr seems to think it ws a vaccine reaction.


I am very sorry for your loss.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

I just came off shift from the ED.

About half my patients this week have been covid. One death, older, multiple comorbidities, and unvaccinated.

Today I admitted 2 unvaccinated. One to the ICU and will likely require a tube and a vent.

Sent home about ten. A mix of vaccinated and young/healthy unvaccinated.

Did the same thing last week. Will do the same thing next week.

The vaccine is good. It's not great. It's nowhere NEAR as good as TPTB promised us it would be. Reduces likelihood of getting covid at least a bit, maybe more. Probably reduces viral load by at least a bit, maybe more (therefore reduces chance of spreading). 

I think it absolutely improves the odds of the recipient avoiding severe disease. Even those I don't admit, the ones with the vaccine are the ones who (generally) come in looking better, with better vitals, who frequently just haven't taken Tylenol or ibuprofen, or just "not getting better yet". The unvaccinated are frequently sicker.

The vaccine also has risks, specifically cardiomyositis, but it seems that is more risky for the young, especially boys. Exquisitely rarely we see Guillaune Barre, etc.

I deteste the mandates, and Fauci should be in jail for lying. And I think the older/more co-morbid you are the more you should get the vaccine.

That being said, my young son won't be getting it. Fortunately every single one of our older kids have already had the disease and survived. Somehow my wife and I, who swim in covid every shift (and are vaccinated) haven't gotten it yet.

That's my experience, and it is congruent with what I read in the rapidly changing literature.

I encourage you to get vaccinated, but respect your decision if you don't.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

@boatswain2PA , thank you for an honest viewpoint.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Barnbuilder, that's about the most reasonable and logical take I've seen, to date, regarding this whole snafu. Thank you.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

it's hard to tell from the data if the vax really improves morbidiity & mortality because it arrived on the scene just about the same time as the milder Delta Var did.-- In its favor, the vaxxed people seem to make up a smaller percentage of the hospitalizations and deaths.

Once again, let's compare the CoV vax to the whooping cough vax (pertussis) available since the 1940s-- prior to the vax ~40,000 kids got whooping cough every year and 20%+ of them died...Now, 50,000 still get it (although pop has more than doubled) but almost nobody dies.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

doc- said:


> it's hard to tell from the data if the vax really improves morbidiity & mortality because it arrived on the scene just about the same time as the milder Delta Var did.-- In its favor, the vaxxed people seem to make up a smaller percentage of the hospitalizations and deaths.
> 
> Once again, let's compare the CoV vax to the whooping cough vax (pertussis) available since the 1940s-- prior to the vax ~40,000 kids got whooping cough every year and 20%+ of them died...Now, 50,000 still get it (although pop has more than doubled) but almost nobody dies.


I don't know the data on pertussis, but isn't most of the infections today older folks (with waning immunity from their pertussis vaccine decades ago) who just get the nasty cough, but it's the very little ones who get the more fatal whooping cough?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Thanks, everyone for taking my question seriously. I am a little bit better educated now.

If I wasn't taking preventative and early treatment supplements, I think I would get a second shot. But since I am, I think I will wait until we see more information on Omicron. If it proves to be a more mild form of the virus with lower hospitalization and death, I probably won't get a 2nd shot. If it is about the same as Delta I will.

At the first sign of Covid-19, I will increase Ivermectin and add in black seed oil, get tested, and if positive get treated with monoclonal antibodies. Hopefully, that is enough to tip things in my favor.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

boatswain2PA said:


> I don't know the data on pertussis, but isn't most of the infections today older folks (with waning immunity from their pertussis vaccine decades ago) who just get the nasty cough, but it's the very little ones who get the more fatal whooping cough?


That was pretty much what my doctor told me when I was diagnosed with whooping cough some years back. He said older people just get sick, it's the very young who can't catch their breath and die from it. For the rest of the population the disease is pretty mild. Your immunity to it fades to nothing in around 10 years, natural or vaccine related. That is why the vaccine is given with the tetanus vaccine. The immunity to both fade at around the same time.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

boatswain2PA said:


> I don't know the data on pertussis, but isn't most of the infections today older folks (with waning immunity from their pertussis vaccine decades ago) who just get the nasty cough, but it's the very little ones who get the more fatal whooping cough?


Immunization works well for viruses, which are neutralized so well by antibodies--"humoral immunity." Bacteria are less susceptable to just the Abs. The Abs help the killer cells recognize and do the final mop-up--"cellular immuity." Bacteria are much more complex with many more proteins involved in their cell walls-- more "types." For example, you might get a strep throat and get good, lasting immunity to that strain, but then you;re still susceptible to get it repeatedly, each time with a different strain. Same for pertussis.

Essentially nobody dies anymore from pertussis. That's the one that gives you a typical "cold" for a week or so, then you keep that dry, annoyng cough for the next three months.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Approx 20 to 25 people a year die from pertussis, which isn't very many.









Deaths due to whooping cough U.S. 1990-2019 | Statista


In 2019, it was estimated that there were around 10 deaths due to whooping cough (pertussis) in the United States.




www.statista.com


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## DKJ (Jan 17, 2021)

MoonRiver said:


> I felt sure I had it about 3 weeks ago, so I had an antibodies test and I didn't. My antibodies are about 105 (don't remember the measurement scale) which was from my J&J vaccine almost 6 months ago. As far as I know, there hasn't been any data published as to how high antibodies should be to indicate protection from serious disease. I know 105 is low, but I don't know if it is still protective.
> 
> I also take Ivermectin, zinc and quercetin, vitamin D level is high, use a povidone-based nasal spray, and a mouthwash that kills viruses. I also have black seed oil and honey ready if I get any symptoms.
> 
> After 2 years with this virus, it's criminal that more data is not available.


What is sad is that the data is out there, the U.S. media is just not telling the truth. The U.S., which spends 3 times as much as any other country on health care, is the most unhealthy of the industrialized countries. We also has one of, if not the highest Covid death rate per million citizens. Other countries have stopped using the vaccines, turned to other older, time tested drugs, and supplements like you mentioned, to stop the "pandemic" in their country. 

I have never taken a flu shot and have not had the flu for over 25 years. I've also had very few colds during that time. I read Dr. Mercola's newsletters, and like you, take those same supplements, plus a few more. I'm not saying don't take the vaccines, I don't know your situation. The problem is the suppression of data from clinical testing around the world, studies that show effective suppression of the virus for a mere matter of months, and that reveal horrifying (IMHO) long term effects on this generation and possibly to offspring

My cousin explained how there are two types of antibodies, the kind that show in a blood test and that may last months AND the kind that exist at the cellular level and do not show on the blood test. These second are the antibodies that can last a lifetime. Another bit of information they never share on the news. She also explained that when you look at statistics, the folks that die from seasonal influenza, are also the folks that have taken the highest number of flu vaccines over the decades. The shot may help you survive that season's flu, but every time you do, the vaccine alters your immune system and it is not always in a good way. Nowdays, by the time kids reach 18 they have had upwards of 70+ vaccines and boosters. Not 70 times in the sense of 70 shots. Multiple vaccines are combined in one shot, a practice that saves trips and overwhelms the children's immune systems. This generation of young adults have also become the unhealthiest generation in U.S. history, with a steadily declining life expectancy and IQs. 

This link is to a video of the Robert F Kennedy interview with Tucker Carlson. It paints a damning and terrifying picture of what our so-called government regulators have allowed big pharma to get away with over the past 50 years; and the health consequences our generation and our children now endure. A vast amount of the data mentioned in this video comes straight from the information released piece meal from the FDA, CDC and other NIH agencies, and the drug companies themselves and never mentioned in the media.









Tucker Carlson Today - Robert F. Kennedy Jr. - 11_15_21


Robert F. Kennedy Jr. on Tucker Carlson




www.bitchute.com


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## DKJ (Jan 17, 2021)

Danaus29 said:


> My nieces lost their step grandfather, before the vaccine was available. One of my neighbors, elderly and in bad shape, died from the virus but I don't know his vax status. Last month hubby lost 2 family members. One a nursing home resident so most likely vaccinated. The other was one of her children, most likely vaccinated so he could visit the nursing home.
> 
> I will say this about the Ohio breakthrough case dashboard. Cases are counted, both vaxxed and unvaxxed, from Jan 1. It would be more informative if it ran from the time the vaccines were widely available instead. Including the time when most people could not get the shot is very misleading as a comparison.


Your are so right. Few people realize when CDC was saying the rise was caused by the unvaccinated, they deliberately used a time frame when the vaccines were just becoming available (Jan. 2020) so for 2/3 of the time period used, only a few non-medical and high risk individuals were being vaccinated.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

DKJ said:


> What is sad is that the data is out there, the U.S. media is just not telling the truth. The U.S., which spends 3 times as much as any other country on health care, is the most unhealthy of the industrialized countries. We also has one of, if not the highest Covid death rate per million citizens. Other countries have stopped using the vaccines, turned to other older, time tested drugs, and supplements like you mentioned, to stop the "pandemic" in their country.
> 
> I have never taken a flu shot and have not had the flu for over 25 years. I've also had very few colds during that time. I read Dr. Mercola's newsletters, and like you, take those same supplements, plus a few more. I'm not saying don't take the vaccines, I don't know your situation. The problem is the suppression of data from clinical testing around the world, studies that show effective suppression of the virus for a mere matter of months, and that reveal horrifying (IMHO) long term effects on this generation and possibly to offspring
> 
> ...


Phwew!...Practically every sentence in that post is not ture. Careful what you read on the internet.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

doc- said:


> Phwew!...Practically every sentence in that post is not ture. Careful what you read on the internet.


It depends on whose stats you read.


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## DKJ (Jan 17, 2021)

doc- said:


> Phwew!...Practically every sentence in that post is not ture. Careful what you read on the internet.


Sorry, but I have heard too many doctors speaking live to doubt their truth. Doctors who have lost jobs, reputations and relationships because they spoke out about what is going on. Unlike those making billions (maybe trillions) from this tragedy, they are not getting rich - they have had their entire lives turned upside down. I have also looked up the stats on the US federal government and WHO web sites. Their own stats don't support the story they are telling. I have spent over 2,000 hours finding and reading published studies from around the world. Studies that in many cases were done years before Covid 19 when there was no motive to twist the data one way or the other. 

While censorship is alive and well in more countries than just the U.S., others have not started censoring to the degree it is here. Thankfully, most published articles are in English although some I have had to run through a translation program. I also have a cousin who worked for 40 years as a molecular immunologist. She knows many in the medical and research fields. We talk almost daily about this subject. 

I know it is disturbing to even begin to consider this is could be true. It is so much easier to stick with the mainstream mindset and believe all this is being done for our benefit, but ask yourself, what if you are wrong and it is true? What are we allowing to happen to our children and grandchildren. Will we look back 5-10 years from now and realize in horror that we stood by while the health and civil liberties of the next generation were stolen from them by people only interested in money and power. 

If nothing else, consider when you listen to a government official giving a press conference, are they citing the specific science behind their information? Are they directing you to where you can go to read it for yourself? If not, why not? Why is it always "we follow the science" but no science is ever discussed in detail or cited. When I find a study that seems to support what they are saying, a closer look usually reveals the funding is either directly or indirectly from big pharma or from individuals who depend on them. 

I wish you and your family well. It saddens me that so many are so angry. We are becoming a country divided, which is, I'm afraid, the ultimate plan. I think we will all need each others' support in the upcoming years.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Spoke to an older friend today. He was not going to accept the jab, but became worried after repeatedly hearing about the possibility of spreading the virus to others. 

He took the jabs, and became ill after the first jab. The nurse said that the second jab would not make him sick, because the first one did.

He became even sicker with the second jab, hitting a temp of 105*, and out of commission for over a week.

With the new reports that those who are jabbed are both contracting and spreading the virus, my friend became very angry. He is not mad at the people who shared the news with him. Nope, he is angry at those who lied and continue to lie to us. He also informed that his group of "old farts drinkin' coffee and cussin' down at the filling station" is also angry at the lies now coming to light. 

These are reasonably intelligent people who are not ashamed to admit that they acted out of fear and concern, and they are also not ashamed to state that they are angry as H-E-double-hockey-sticks about being lied to by people they trusted. 

For the record, my friend told me that his doctor admonished him NOT to get the jab. Friend got sick in the first wave, and was sick as a dog for 2 long months. Doc told him he had immunity, and friend said doc read him the riot act for getting the jab. 

I love my older friends who hide nothing, and teach me so much by their responses to life's travails.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

The fact that they are testing an updated jab for effectiveness against omnicron should tell you all you need to know about the effectiveness of the previous jab against omnicron. By the time it gets out of testing, of course, there will be a new variant that the then current jab will have limited effectiveness against, as has been the case all along.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

And they want you to have had the 3 original shots before getting the omicron shot.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I remember being but a wee lad, getting my shots, and hearing the doctor explain how vaccines were so important, and asking him why they don't make a vaccine for the cold. He said something about, a lot of the cold viruses mutate so fast, the vaccine wouldn't work for it anymore. Which caused me to go home and see if he was lying by consulting the internet at that time, which was the encyclopedia brittanica. His answer seemed plausible, from a practicality standpoint, based on the science of the late seventies. I always remembered that discussion, and confirmed it in various periodicals, right on up through the internet. Looking into various livestock vaccines, the lack of a cold vaccine was a common reference in discussions about vaccine availability, "it mutates too fast, like the cold". When you consider testing requirements, time to market, it makes anything approaching a mandate seem really silly.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Danaus29 said:


> And they want you to have had the 3 original shots before getting the omicron shot.


Can I just have the three previous strains and then catch omnicron instead?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

barnbilder said:


> Can I just have the three previous strains and then catch omnicron instead?


Since they aren't telling us if catching one of the early strains gives you immunity to the more recent strains, your guess is as good as mine. But since the early reporting of omicron seems to be that it is like a bad cold I would say if you're gonna get it, get that one.

But many people had antibodies from the early strains and didn't even get sick. Most people who get delta don't get sick enough to stay in the hospital. It all gives me a headache.


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## Wellbuilt (Dec 25, 2020)

I think at some point this will be like the regular flue some people will get sick some people will die as allways .
I’m not planing on getting the shot none of them . But we will see


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

DKJ said:


> What is sad is that the data is out there, the U.S. media is just not telling the truth. The U.S., which spends 3 times as much as any other country on health care, is the most unhealthy of the industrialized countries. *We spend 43% more than the average per capita* Healthcare costs by country: How does the US rank? | finder.com * We rank 43 rd among 176 nations in LE. The genetic & trauma factors keep us this loiw, not the health factors per se*. Life Expectancy by Country and in the World (2021) - Worldometer We also has one of, if not the highest Covid death rate per million citizens. Other countries have stopped using the vaccines, *Pure BS. No reference needed*. *Portugal, for insance has a 90% vax rate*..turned to other older, time tested drugs, and supplements like you mentioned, to stop the "pandemic" in their country. *More BS. I've referenced here before-- rates of infection & death are statistically equivalent in all countries- regardless of how they're handling things.*
> 
> I have never taken a flu shot and have not had the flu for over 25 years. I've also had very few colds during that time. *The older you get, the fewer colds & flu you get-- You've had them before and are now immune.* I read Dr. Mercola's newsletters, and like you, take those same supplements, plus a few more. I'm not saying don't take the vaccines, I don't know your situation. The problem is the suppression of data from clinical testing around the world, studies that show effective suppression of the virus for a mere matter of months, and that reveal horrifying (IMHO) long term effects on this generation and possibly to offspring *No evidence to support those contentions.*
> 
> ...


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

From @doc- link 
The US is often the butt of the joke internationally for its seemingly outrageous hospital costs. For example, the US spent $3.8 trillion on healthcare goods and services

Source: Healthcare costs by country: How does the US rank? | finder.com
Analysis conducted by finder.com 

My question is: are these costs based on what's billed or what's paid? Payment is often about 33% of what is billed.
Are research and development costs included?


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

The question goes deeper than that. Does this cost add in supplements? Naturopathy? Chiropractology? There are lot of incredibly healthy people who spend a LOT of money on this unnecessary stuff. 

Now add in the 30 yo methheads who come to the ED every week because they have chest pain after doing meth/cocaine...and get admitted because they are having a drug-induced heart attack costing taxpayers mid-five figures (they are on disability, of course, due to their meth-induced schizophrenia). Or the 690 lb woman who comes in several times a year with shortness of breath and requires an ambulance ride 200 miles away to get on the CT scanner to prove she doesn't have a PE....because she "is very concerned for her health". Or the 85 yo cachectic demented nursing home pt in the ICU for the 10th time this year with urosepsis due to their indwelling catheter because the family "wants everything done". Now add in the cardiologist who puts in a pacemaker in that last patient due to her new onset complete heart block...without a discussion with the family about "she is at the end of her life and needs to be made comfortable until she dies."

Now add in the $22 BILLION in PROFIT that United Healthcare made last year. $22 B in PROFIT. One can assume the other major carriers also had similar profit. Oh, and the massive waste and fraud of medicare/medicaid. Little Johnny has a runny nose, so mom brings in all 6 kids to the ED for evaluation to make sure they dont have....I dunno, meningitis or something. After all, it doesn't cost her anything because, you know, medicaid. And this, of course, creates a perverse incentive for the hospitals to welcome this mom because that's 6 ED visits they get to bill Medicaid for low risk visits.

And good question about whether this data adds in R&D which predominately comes from the US still. Most statistics like this come from academia which is pretty unfriendly to the US.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

boatswain2PA said:


> The question goes deeper than that. Does this cost add in supplements? Naturopathy? Chiropractology? There are lot of incredibly healthy people who spend a LOT of money on this unnecessary stuff.


Supplements for some deficiencies work extremely well. I could spend 12 hours a day in the summer naked in a field and my vitamin d levels might get up to 30. I have to take at least 10,000 IU a day to keep vitamin d high enough to be protective.

I don't make enough stomach acid (which is true for most seniors) as well as enzymes to break down saturated fat. I choose to eat a minimum of saturated fat but take betaine hcl and Ox bile when I do.

I eat a mostly vegetarian diet so I supplement my B12.

I also take niacin to raise my hdl.

Vitamin C, D, zinc, and quercetin are helpful in treating covid-19.

Chiropractors have kept me out of surgery on 2 occasions - once for my back and once for a pinched nerve in my shoulder. Specialists and physical therapists said nothing they could do but surgery.

People have used plants for medicine for thousands of years. They still work!


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

boatswain2PA said:


> Now add in the $22 BILLION in PROFIT that United Healthcare made last year. $22 B in PROFIT. One can assume the other major carriers also had similar profit.


You just made the argument for single payer.

I wish I trusted our government, and maybe then I could get behind the idea of single payer and socialized medicine.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Danaus29 said:


> Since they aren't telling us if catching one of the early strains gives you immunity to the more recent strains, your guess is as good as mine. But since the early reporting of omicron seems to be that it is like a bad cold I would say if you're gonna get it, get that one.
> 
> But many people had antibodies from the early strains and didn't even get sick. Most people who get delta don't get sick enough to stay in the hospital. It all gives me a headache.


I have yet to see one reliable source demonstrate that they have isolated the bioweapon, let alone each new "variant" that they roll out to spook people.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

MoonRiver said:


> Supplements for some deficiencies work extremely well. I could spend 12 hours a day in the summer naked in a field and my vitamin d levels might get up to 30. I have to take at least 10,000 IU a day to keep vitamin d high enough to be protective.
> 
> I don't make enough stomach acid (which is true for most seniors) as well as enzymes to break down saturated fat. I choose to eat a minimum of saturated fat but take betaine hcl and Ox bile when I do.
> 
> ...


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Pony said:


> View attachment 103194


Id love to know who thinks fruits and vegetable and yoga is quackery. Or that a diet of fast food is normal or healthy I’ve never heard anyone claim that. 
So are you a full fledged anti-vaxxer now?


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

HDRider said:


> You just made the argument for single payer.
> 
> I wish I trusted our government, and maybe then I could get behind the idea of single payer and socialized medicine.


The argument for single payor vs multi-insurance vs individual payment misses the singular foundational issue involving the "Healthcare argument"....which is rationing.

It is a dirty little word because HOW we ration it is a political football that we fight over without even realizing what it is.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

boatswain2PA said:


> It is a dirty little word because HOW we ration it is a political football that we fight over without even realizing what it is.


It is rationed today by one's ability to pay


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

HDRider said:


> It is rationed today by one's ability to pay


For some, yes. For others it is rationed by what CMS or their insurer will pay for (for those on Medicaid the rationing certainly isn't their ability to pay). For others t is rationed by location, quality, or availability.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

boatswain2PA said:


> For some, yes. For others it is rationed by what CMS or their insurer will pay for (for those on Medicaid the rationing certainly isn't their ability to pay). For others t is rationed by location, quality, or availability.


I am not disagreeing with you, but the basis of all those things you list is the "ability to pay"


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

HDRider said:


> I am not disagreeing with you, but the basis of all those things you list is the "ability to pay"


I disagree. Insurance company with $22 BILLION in profits have the ability to pay, they just set the rules (and create enormous levels of bureaucracy) so they pay for as little as they can get away with. Oh, and they have great friends in one poliitical party who passed a law requiring everyone to have insurance, which pushed their profits even higher!

Those on Medicaid are not rationed by THEIR ability to pay (unless you are counting their inability to pay for "better" care, like the Minister of Newfoundland who could afford to escape Canada's rationing system to come to the US for his heart surgery 'Danny Millions' Williams heads south for heart surgery). For those on Medicaid (and Medicare, and other government led systems). Therefore they get the "death panels", poorer quality of care, less access to care, etc. All alternative ways to ration care.

It is, however, frequently the inability to pay for those between Medicaid and wealthy that rations their care.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

boatswain2PA said:


> I disagree. Insurance company with $22 BILLION in profits have the ability to pay


When I say ability, I am speaking about an individual, the person needing or wanting the service.

Don't confuse what I am saying with "willingness to pay".


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

HDRider said:


> When I say ability, I am speaking about an individual, the person needing or wanting the service.
> 
> Don't confuse what I am saying with "willingness to pay".


The vast majority of individuals in the US who lack the ability to pay for healthcare are covered by Medicaid, so their healthcare is free.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

boatswain2PA said:


> The vast majority of individuals in the US who lack the ability to pay for healthcare are covered by Medicaid, so their healthcare is free.


So they fall prey to an unwillingness to pay, on top of their inability to pay. Poor suckers


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

HDRider said:


> So they fall prey to an unwillingness to pay, on top of their inability to pay. Poor suckers


Not following ya


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

boatswain2PA said:


> Not following ya


They can't pay so they get Medicaid that won't pay


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

If insurance would pay for long visits with integrative doctors, the overall cost of healthcare would plummet. Preventing and curing disease is a lot cheaper than treating disease.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Medicaid rations, but like all things governmental they do it poorly, and they have to hide it because it is political.

Medicaid pays poorly so many docs don't take it, or they only take a few Medicaid patients (rationing). This frequently leaves Medicaid patients waiting/driving longer to see docs who take Medicaid. 

But since it is free, there is a perverse incentive for Medicaid patients to skip all that nonsense and just come to the ED. Little Jonny has a runny nose, so lets bring in his 4 siblings to the ED to get checked out as well. Free for them, expensive for taxpayers, crushing for the ED staff who has to fight the EMR system documenting nothing wrong with 5 kids (meanwhile the ED is full of other sick/potentially sick people who need our time).

And when a Medicaid user does get sick and come through the ED, I frequently see specialists do the bare minimum and the discontinue care for nonpayment (cause they don't take Medicare). Example - badly broken hand, reduced and splinted in the ED but clearly needs surgical repair. Ortho sees them as outpatient (since they were on call ortho at time of presentation to ED they have to see the patient to ensure no emergent orthopedic issue), says the emergency is over, and since they don't take Medicaid they don't do surgery to restore function of hand.

There's your guv'ment run rationing.

But let's talk about Medicare as well. 95 yo Grandma who live at home alone is vaccinated but gets covid, she's not hypoxic or in distress, she is just too weak to get out of bed. Can't admit to hospital because it doesn't meet Medicare criteria, so gotta send her home where she gets dehydrated, renal failure, and then comes back in for admission and transfer to nursing home.

There's your rationing by bureaucratic bullexcrement.

Our healthcare system is a mess because we don't openly and explicitly talk about how we SHOULD ration care. So instead we have a bunch of ways we do it, but it's opaque, insidious and usually turns out to be even more expensive.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

MoonRiver said:


> If insurance would pay for long visits with integrative doctors, the overall cost of healthcare would plummet. Preventing and curing disease is a lot cheaper than treating disease.


Not sure what you mean integrative doctors, but yes, what insurance (who always generally follow CMS guides) pays for primary care visits is laughably low.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

boatswain2PA said:


> Or the 85 yo cachectic demented nursing home pt in the ICU for the 10th time this year with urosepsis due to their indwelling catheter because the family "wants everything done". Now add in the cardiologist who puts in a pacemaker in that last patient due to her new onset complete heart block...without a discussion with the family about "she is at the end of her life and needs to be made comfortable until she dies."


End-of-Life Medicare Spending and the Cost of Care Insights » Remington Report 25% of all Medicare expenditures are accrued during the last year of life-- almost all of that for the last WEEK, when we all know they ain't gunna make it anyways. Thanks to lawyers. I can guarantee that most medical tests are done to please the lawyers & potential jurors, not to provide needed info.

I don;t know what yousay about ins profitss are true now, but the Big Lie the Dems used to help get BOCare passed was that ins co's made too much profit.-- IN FACT-- prior to BoCare, ins premiums only provide 98% of the carriers' cost of doing business. They made profits because with that huge cash flow, they invested it and earned interest. That's why they like to delay payments-- interest was accruing for every day they were late.







Lisa in WA said:


> Id love to know who thinks fruits and vegetable and yoga is quackery. Or that a diet of fast food is normal or healthy I’ve never heard anyone claim that.
> So are you a full fledged anti-vaxxer now?


Use your favorite nutrition site (they all use the USDA info) to comparre any of your favorite rabbit food to a diet consisting of 6oz of beef, a potato, a serving of beans, one of peas, a couple glasses of milk and a couple of slices of bread made with fortified flour. Nobody needs all that other "healthy"stuff. Your mother and all the health food nuts were lying to you....I evaluate foods by how many servings it takes to provide 100% of any given nutrient. Most of those fruits & veggies need 10-20 servings each for any given nutrient and all are incomplete in how many they provide....and the ratio of cal to nutrients is terrible.[/QUOTE]


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

doc- said:


> Use your favorite nutrition site (they all use the USDA info) to comparre any of your favorite rabbit food to a diet consisting of 6oz of beef, a potato, a serving of beans, one of peas, a couple glasses of milk and a couple of slices of bread made with fortified flour. Nobody needs all that other "healthy"stuff. Your mother and all the health food nuts were lying to you....I evaluate foods by how many servings it takes to provide 100% of any given nutrient. Most of those fruits & veggies need 10-20 servings each for any given nutrient and all are incomplete in how many they provide....and the ratio of cal to nutrients is terrible.


[/QUOTE]
I don’t have the time to refute everything here, but one cup of carrots provides over the recommended daily amount of Vit A. Two oranges provides all the vitamin c needed for the day.
There are plenty of others but I’m off to downtown.
all I said was that eating fresh fruits and veggies and practicing yoga is not quackery and have their benefits. Are you saying it is?


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Nobody has said eating healthy or yoga is quackery.

Naturopathy is new age witchcraft. Chiropractology isn't far behind that (although can give some relief for musculoskeletal pain).






An interview of a naturopath who went to ND school because she wanted to help people, THEN found out it was witchcraft so she went to Medical School.

Naturopaths are dangerous.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Yet other doctors say just the opposite.




Robotron said:


> Daughter is a doctor doing internal med residency. It’s hard to tell the patient and family where this goes once admitted. Vast majority coming in are unvaccinated.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

One problem with your statement is, for example, someone who smoke depletes much of the C they take in.

If I were well and ate a couple grams of ascorbic acid, I'd come to understand the story of Montezuma's revenge. On the other hand, when I'm feeling puny, that same amount of C doesn't phase me.

In short, one of the problems we encounter is, even experts often try to make things into a "one size fits all" thing.

Add to the foregoing the fact modern farming practices deplete soils of needed nutriments. Fertilizers, often, only replace the better known things. For example, we dump fifteen hundred pounds of nitrogen on our 100 acres of corn and the corn is beautiful, even if nutritionally hollow.


I don’t have the time to refute everything here, but one cup of carrots provides over the recommended daily amount of Vit A. Two oranges provides all the vitamin c needed for the day.
There are plenty of others but I’m off to downtown.
all I said was that eating fresh fruits and veggies and practicing yoga is not quackery and have their benefits. Are you saying it is?
[/QUOTE]


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

A blanket statement naturopathy witchcraft is pathetic at best.

On one hand, many are the doctors who mock those who promote healthy eating, herbs and soon. Then, on the other, they say "don't drink that grapefruit juice, it'll affect your meds."

It was only a few decades ago I saw ignorant doctors mocking those who push vitamin D3, only to, later, climb on board, when they figured out it was actually something we needed to supplement. Even then, many of those part time idiots pushed any old D (e.g., DL, the synthetic version) instead of D3.

Even now, doctors who are little more than parrots of big pharma push their calcium shots, only to learn they caused problems with too much calcium in the blood. Only a few understood sucking on an oyster shell or drinking cows milk does not get calcium to your bones like broccoli, which as already broken down the calcium to something our bodies can assimilate does. 

Ironically, many a doctor acts like an idiot and rambles about this drug or that indiscriminately, only to watch some of them kill or injure their patients. 

Then there is the fact many an herb your doctor would mock is synthesized for its medicinal value, and profits. 


In short, stay away from this quack. The best she could do is parrot big pharma.





boatswain2PA said:


> Nobody has said eating healthy or yoga is quackery.
> 
> Naturopathy is new age witchcraft. Chiropractology isn't far behind that (although can give some relief for musculoskeletal pain).
> 
> ...


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Kelly Craig said:


> blanket statement naturopathy witchcraft is pathetic at best.


The sun will come up tomorrow. And Naturopaths are dangerous quacks. Both are equally true statements.



Kelly Craig said:


> On one hand, many are the doctors who mock those who promote healthy eating, herbs and soon. Then, on the other, they say "don't drink that grapefruit juice, it'll affect your meds."


No doctor mocks those who promote healthy eating. And we generally like herbs.

Grapefruit juice affects the Cyp4C enzyme that is a major metabolic driver in your liver, thus it does affect lots of drugs.

To the rest of your rant - yes, things change in medicine. I think time will show that we went too far with the D3 craze, but perhaps I'm wrong.

None of that, though, is about naturopathy, which is witchcraft.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

doc- said:


> Use your favorite nutrition site (they all use the USDA info) to comparre any of your favorite rabbit food to a diet consisting of 6oz of beef, a potato, a serving of beans, one of peas, a couple glasses of milk and a couple of slices of bread made with fortified flour. Nobody needs all that other "healthy"stuff. Your mother and all the health food nuts were lying to you....I evaluate foods by how many servings it takes to provide 100% of any given nutrient. Most of those fruits & veggies need 10-20 servings each for any given nutrient and all are incomplete in how many they provide....and the ratio of cal to nutrients is terrible.


[/QUOTE]
Add a couple eggs and a protein bar and you've got a pretty good daily ration there. I might would do an either or with the bread and potato, and maybe add some leafy greens and maybe some cole vegetables so I could have more than just the one meal and one snack, for the day. That is kind of the point of vegetables, they are not calorically dense, but add fiber and vitamins, and they fill you up.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

RCW 9A.72.080, from the codification of Washington law, says it well: If a statement is not known to be true, it's false." And here we are, first you claim to know every utterance and stance of the thousands and thousands of doctors across our land, then you claim to be an expert on natural medicine. Reasonable, informed minds know both are false.

All you have to do is go to an average hospital and see the kind of things nutritionist pass as healthy to know healthy eating is far from all but a few doctors' area of expertise. Perhaps a more obvious example would be, the promotion of margarine over butter, for good health. Those quacks knew, long before the average lame doctor did, hydrogenated oils and excess omega six fatty acids were problematic.

Many a doctor claims there is no real gain from chemical free or organic food over whatever shows up in the local store, as if they are farming experts and know the soil condition where a given item was grown.

Obviously, doctors are not all knowing experts on all things life. Our law books make clear the fact they are no less prone to criminal activities and neglect than those who are part of any other profession. I witnessed, first hand, behavior that would qualify as quackery, doctors ignoring the patient because they were the expert, only to later learn the patient knew more about his/her body than did the doctor, who, by ignoring the patient, cause irreparable injury.

Quackery is relying on lobby heavy big pharma for all your answers. In fact, most doctors are at or near being wholly ignorant of things like hypnosis. Ironically, this even as they prescribe things that must compete with power of belief.

Yes, there is rambling on this thread, and you've just managed to be one of the contributors.






boatswain2PA said:


> The sun will come up tomorrow. And Naturopaths are dangerous quacks. Both are equally true statements.
> 
> 
> No doctor mocks those who promote healthy eating. And we generally like herbs.
> ...


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Kelly Craig said:


> And here we are, first you claim to know every utterance and stance of the thousands and thousands of doctors across our land


No, I didn't. Might want to lay off the herb.



Kelly Craig said:


> then you claim to be an expert on natural medicine.


No I didn't, you really might want to lay off the herb.



Kelly Craig said:


> All you have to do is go to an average hospital and see the kind of things nutritionist pass as healthy to know healthy eating is far from all but a few doctors' area of expertise.


An orthopedist isn't going to be an expert on healthy eating....but

In undergrad college they took bio I, bio II, chemistry I, chemistry II, organic chemistry I, organic chemistry II, biochemistry (sometimes I and II), and...wait for it....nutrition!! Now add in anatomy and physiology I and II, and often classes in things like pharmacology, etc. Add in statistics, calculus, and physics.

A qualified applicant for medical school understands more about nutrition, science, and human physiology than any naturopath ever will. THEN they go to medical school to learn how to actually apply it.



Kelly Craig said:


> Many a doctor claims there is no real gain from chemical free or organic food over whatever shows up in the local store


Most doctors claim there is no REAL gain from chemical free or organic food over whatever shows up in the local store.

There might be some marginal gain. There are certainly some well studied effects of how people in some areas became deficient in a specific mineral because that mineral was rare in their soil. The history of Niacin deficiency is fascinating, but that problem has been fixed by adding it to almost all grains (and bread) sold in the US (and elsewhere). Is there a REAL gain in eating organic chemical free strawberries over one that is genetically enhanced to be resistant to round-up and is coated with it every 2 weeks? Maybe....but we haven't really found it yet (the evidence for glyphosate induced lymphoma is very scant, but certainly possible).



Kelly Craig said:


> Obviously, doctors are not all knowing experts on all things life.


We can add this to the other two truths
1: The sun will come up tomorrow
2. Naturopaths are quacks
3. Obviously, doctors are not all knowing experts on all things life.



Kelly Craig said:


> Quackery is relying on lobby heavy big pharma for all your answers.


This is a hoot. Have you BEEN to a naturoquack lately? How much crap did he try to sell you every month? I recently read somewhere that the AVERAGE naturopath patient is "prescribed" $400 worth of "supplements" the patient has to take every month to ward off whatever magical disease the naturopath "diagnosed".

Where do those "supplements" come from? The same place that you are accusing doctors of sucking up to.

But, but to be fair, if you go to your primary PHYSICIAN (a real doctor), you may get a prescription for $400 worth of medicine as well.

But now look at this deeper.

The naturoquack who "prescribed" the supplements (almost always water soluble vitamins/minerals that is near impossible to overdose on if your kidneys are working) IS ALLOWED TO SELL YOU THOSE SAME VITAMINS/MINERALS. So that $400 goes right in his pocket. Yes, that high dose vitamin C, B3, B6, and B12 that he prescribes to you for to cure the liver flukes that he has diagnosed you with (that is causing you fatigue, but curiously not any jaundice....cause he doesn't know what that is) will cost you $400 a month ("and you really should buy that from here, cause you never know what is in that stuff you get off the shelf at Wal-Mart")....and you are going to pee it all away because they are water-soluble. Meanwhile that costs him about $12. Kaching!!

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE: Who actually PRODUCES all of those water-soluble vitamins that naturoquack "prescribed" for the non-existent "liver fluke"? Wait for it......

.....

BIG FREAKING PHARMA!!!!! Yup. In Naturoquackery, the quack gets $388 of your money, and big pharma gets $12. In fairness, big pharma does get this every time any naturoquack rips some idjit off, so it probably does add up.

Meanwhile if you ACTUALLY have a liver fluke from eating raw water cress, I'm going to find it because you come into the ED with jaundice, maybe a hepatic encephalopathy with an ammonia of 45, or vomiting blood from your portal vein hypertension, notice your marked eosinophilia on your CBC, and then do a CT scan to see the little worms rolling around in your liver. I will prescribe you something that ends in -azole (I actually don't know which drug, because this is so rare that I've never seen it....outside of a bunch of idjits who come to my ED saying they are taking $400/month of water-soluble vitamins prescribed by their naturopath for their liver flukes they developed because they drink from a well....and of course don't have liver flukes).

Now let's say that -azole drug (Triclabendazole maybe?) costs $400 a month.

I don't see any of that $400. None.

But, wait. Drug companies can always get around rules...right? So maybe they just give me a bunch of "gifts" to get me to write a bunch of unnecessary prescriptions for their $400 in Tricabendazole. 

Nope. Illegal.. I can't even accept a freaking PEN from a drug company. It's illegal.

In full disclosure, there are a VERY few doctors who are paid by drug companies to give speeches about how successful their drugs are, and these doctors are required to disclose those payments during speeches, lectures, broadcasts, etc. 

So, for those idjits who think that us evil/ignorant/stupid doctors do what we do because we "rely on big pharma for all of our answers", if you ever do get a liver fluke from eating your organic water cress....please go see a naturopath first. 
But please tell him that you are "just a little tired" and that you drink from a well, because otherwise he will miss it.

When you really get sick, you will come to a "real" doctor and we will do our best to prevent you from become a Darwin Award Winner.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

I don’t have the time to refute everything here, but one cup of carrots provides over the recommended daily amount of Vit A. Two oranges provides all the vitamin c needed for the day.
There are plenty of others but I’m off to downtown.
all I said was that eating fresh fruits and veggies and practicing yoga is not quackery and have their benefits. Are you saying it is?
[/QUOTE]

Two potatoes gives you all the C you need plus way more vits & mins, and considerabliy more protein than the carrots or oranges. Potato, baked, flesh and skin, without salt Nutrition Facts & Calories

Let's just say the fruits/veggies/ yoga (not an exercise, but a relaxation technique) are not what they're quacked up to be.

I'm not saying you shouldn't eat those things, just that for survivalist considerations, they should be given very low priority when planning for provisions.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Oh but you did: "No doctor mocks those who promote healthy eating. . . ." 

And your herb statement is nothing more than more of the same erroneous, presumptuous ignorance or stupidity which presumes doctors of natural medicine don't hold medical degrees. I know four of the many thousands who hold medical degrees.

And I don't do "herb."



boatswain2PA said:


> No, I didn't. Might want to lay off the herb.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

The sad truth is, the few things you mention are not told to patients. Neither is the fact they smoke, so need more C. It's so sad all the parrots of pharma Co push statins, but rarely push COq10, which is depleted by the statins, but which it critical to heart function.


Little, if anything, is talked about magnesium and what is does for our blood pumping system. Instead of recommending the antioxident quercetin for congestion, most doctors push for Sudafed or an equivalent.

Natural medicine practitioners do focus on these things and got the word out, in spite of the kind of flack seen here when they tried.

This list of such things is significant too. In the end, it appears a competent doctor would seek out the information natural medicine doctors look to, rather than looking the fool and running all of it down.




doc- said:


> I don’t have the time to refute everything here, but one cup of carrots provides over the recommended daily amount of Vit A. Two oranges provides all the vitamin c needed for the day.
> There are plenty of others but I’m off to downtown.
> all I said was that eating fresh fruits and veggies and practicing yoga is not quackery and have their benefits. Are you saying it is?


Two potatoes gives you all the C you need plus way more vits & mins, and considerabliy more protein than the carrots or oranges. Potato, baked, flesh and skin, without salt Nutrition Facts & Calories

Let's just say the fruits/veggies/ yoga (not an exercise, but a relaxation technique) are not what they're quacked up to be.

I'm not saying you shouldn't eat those things, just that for survivalist considerations, they should be given very low priority when planning for provisions.
[/QUOTE]


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Kelly Craig said:


> Oh but you did: "No doctor mocks those who promote healthy eating. . . ."


I'll repeat that again, because it's true. No doctor mocks those who promote healthy eating.....unless they also promote STUPID stuff like quercetin, vitamin C for liver flukes, etc. 

Naturoquacks and witches use enough truth to sucker their victims into falling for their BS. The really stupid naturoquacks even think their witchcraft is real, but most of them realize they are just charlatans who can fleece their patients (ie: $400 in prescriptions every month to cure their magical ailments).



Kelly Craig said:


> presumes doctors of natural medicine don't hold medical degrees.


Naturoquack doctors hold "Doctorates of Naturopathy", not "Doctorates of Medicine"...which is a medical degree. 



Kelly Craig said:


> The sad truth is, the few things you mention are not told to patients. Neither is the fact they smoke, so need more C.


More ignorance. The government pays an additional $15 for every patient I see who smokes if I take >5 minutes discussing and documenting risks and smoking cessation with them. 

You are absolutely clueless about medicine.....almost as bad as a naturoquack.




Kelly Craig said:


> Little, if anything, is talked about magnesium and what is does for our blood pumping system.


When was the last time you pushed two grams of magnesium sulfate into a central line you just put into a peri-arrest asthmatic or CHFer with a BP of 250/120? I did about 2 days ago. 

If your daughter was 32 weeks pregnant with pre-eclampsia and her BP was 180/70 with a headache and vision change...would you want your naturopath to figure out what kind of magnesium she needs, how much she needs, and how quickly she needs it?

If your grandma went into A-fib with RVR with a heart rate of 150 and became short of breath....would you want your naturopath to give her the magnesium?

If you do....well please prepare to receive the Darwin Award.




Kelly Craig said:


> Instead of recommending the antioxident quercetin for congestion, most doctors push for Sudafed or an equivalent.


Because Sudafed WORKS. We know exactly HOW it works, we have given billions of doses of it and it has worked EVERY SINGLE TIME. Nobody takes Sudafed and doesn't get at least some relief from their sinus congestion (they might get side effects, but their sinus congestion WILL get better. (for the nerds who want to get deeper into pharmacology than any naturoquack does - sudafed (pseudoephedrine) is an "adrenergic" medicine, specifically an "alpha adrenergic" that works mostly on the peripheral blood vessel. Being an adrenergic medicine, closely related to adrenaline (epinephrine) given off by your adrenal glands during periods of stress (fight or flight), this molecule triggers your peripheral blood vessels, including in your sinuses, to constrict. Less blood flow to your nose = less fluid going to your nose = less congestion in your nose = more air flowing through your nose = you can breathe better to run away or fight).

As for quercetin - yeah, most (real) doctors don't recommend it because there is no evidence that it works for sinus congestion, cancer, or any other claim that's out there about it. Naturoquacks will recommend you buy the bottle from them for $80/month.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

MoonRiver said:


> This is a serious question. In terms of protecting me from getting infected with the Sars-Cov2 virus, I don't see any benefit. The question really is do vaccines result in a less serious case of Covid-19?
> 
> If there actually is a significant reduction in hospitalization and death, it would probably be the right option for people at high risk.
> 
> I haven't seen any data on this that I trust, although there very well could be studies I don't know about. And when they use relative risk, it is even harder to determine what protection, if any, the vaccines provide.



Honestly, protecting yourself from covid is much like other cold/flues.

If you have bad health you should remedy that ASAP if possible. DON'T SMOKE, or VAPE

TAKE VItamin D, every day. It is difficult to take too much and most Americans are VERY deficient in vitamin D

Zinc and Magnesium regularly helps

Vitamin C, daily

Exercize! Just walking to get you heart going is a big help, EVERYDAY

Stay away from the sugars, bad for you

Covid attacks your circulatory system (that is in the lungs too). This is why being FAT and/or having diabeties are major co-morbidities for covid

Breat Weinstein and Heather Heying on the "*Darkhorse"* Podcast. Best watched on *Spotify*. Good science. Both of them are PHDs in Evolutionary Biology, you may recall them from the Evergreen College racism. They post on YouTube, but that is squelched quite often. They are real nerds, complete with nerd jokes 

Good luck, be healthy 
.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

MoonRiver said:


> ...but I have recently heard several doctors who treat Covid patients say that the unvaccinated patients tend to have more severe cases than the vaccinated.


Unfortunately that is true, and I do not believe in the jab, but most of those people have major underlying conditions, so...


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

MoonRiver said:


> Thanks, everyone for taking my question seriously. I am a little bit better educated now.
> 
> If I wasn't taking preventative and early treatment supplements, I think I would get a second shot. But since I am, I think I will wait until we see more information on Omicron. If it proves to be a more mild form of the virus with lower hospitalization and death, I probably won't get a 2nd shot. If it is about the same as Delta I will.
> 
> At the first sign of Covid-19, I will increase Ivermectin and add in black seed oil, get tested, and if positive get treated with monoclonal antibodies. Hopefully, that is enough to tip things in my favor.



There are some scientists who speculate that omecron may be the way out of this.

It is very transmissible, yet the symptoms appear to be mild.

This is how we got rid of the measles, we were infected with a mild version of the disease and became protected.

Not much money for big pharma and the health system conglomerates, but "Let's go Brandon!"


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Danaus29 said:


> Since they aren't telling us if catching one of the early strains gives you immunity to the more recent strains, your guess is as good as mine. But since the early reporting of omicron seems to be that it is like a bad cold I would say if you're gonna get it, get that one.
> 
> But many people had antibodies from the early strains and didn't even get sick. Most people who get delta don't get sick enough to stay in the hospital. It all gives me a headache.


Hi everyone again.

I have the flu and am a day from being better so am sitting in front of the computer being a pain in the, well, you know.

First. Yes, I know tit is said that the flu is gone again this year, but i assert that it is here, and was last year.

Second,* I had Covid in December 2019. It was bad. Do not wish it on anyone, but I have not gotten it since*. (and I was,and am, healthy)
and no, I do not wear a mask any more than I use a chainlink fence to keep mosquitoes out of the house, too awkward and looks silly.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Spewing your bent and broken opinion over and over again does not make it true. That you choose to be biased and ignorant suggests you may suffer from worse than mere ignorance.

Similarly, misrepresenting fact by way of claiming no naturopath has a medical degree equal to a general practitioner suggests everything else you say is suspect. Many a doctor practicing natural medicine has multiple degrees. Again, I know a few.

No less sad than your other rants is, you fail to see the obvious conflicts in your own statements. You act like any doctor who looks to natural remedies practices witchcraft. This, of course, necessitates one ignore the means by which rickets, scurvy and so on were solved. It ignores, as you did in earlier posts, that many drugs are merely synthetic versions of natural drugs, but which cannot be patented. You ignore that doctors prescribe prenatal vitamins every day.

As you ramble about naturopathic doctors selling vitamins and things, you, all too conveniently, say not a word about the doctors driving high end cars, living in very nice homes, enjoying expensive vacations and hobbies and how they came by them. Apparently, you labor under the delusion only those doctors who do not practice natural medicine should be able to eek out a living. Meanwhile, many a doctor and hospital charges absurd prices for Q-Tips, BandAids and so on. Yet you want to whine about a naturopathic MD charging for vitamins.

You, disingenuously, call what naturopathic doctors do witchcraft. You are either wholly ignorant or are willfully and knowingly, ignore many of them have medical degrees no less impressive than your idols.

Your ramblings and attempts to paint every naturopath as evil, stupid or anything else negative that comes to your obviously biased mind indicate you need to educate yourself, to avoid further looking the part of a fool. Consider starting with pharmaceuticals, since you like the word witchcraft so much.

A simple search of the Net using the word pharmacy yields a good many results. All lead to that witchcraft you spew about. Below are a few examples of results.:

"[P]ertaining to pharmacy or the art of preparing drugs," 1640s (pharmaceutic in the same sense is from 1540s), from Late Latin pharmaceuticus "of drugs," from Greek pharmakeutikos, from pharmakeus "preparer of drugs, poisoner" (see pharmacy).”

“What does the word pharmaceutical mean in Greek?
Pharmacy is a combination of the Greek term * pharama form IE * bher- (to charm, enchant) and -(a)-ko- resulting in * pharmako- (magic, charm, cure, potion, medicine) and in Latin pharmacie.”


“What is the root word for sorcery? Where does sorcery come from? The first records of the word sorcery come from the 1200s. It ultimately comes from the Latin sortiārius, meaning “person who casts lots” (referring to a person who tells fortunes). Fictionally speaking, sorcery is a magic (the kind with supernatural power, not the kind with card tricks).

“Pharmakeia” appears in Galatians 5:19-21: “The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

You went from doctors are tools for big pharma, then ignore the fact that doctors can't make money from big pharma like naturoquacks can, then whine because someone who worked hard enough to get ten times the education of a naturopath drives nice cars and lives in a nice house.

Good on you Kelly Craig. You know how to apply for the Darwin Awards. Make sure you consult your naturopath when you actually get sick so you can win that award.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

In other words, with regard to cardiology, you're an idiot. Do you prescribe Sudafed for all your patients suffering from congestive heart failure and other types of heart or vessel problems?

How could anyone become so stupid they believe only the for profit pharmaceutical companies have solutions? 

If you are in the medical profession, you are part of a group responsible for deaths that the likes of Stalin might be proud of. That is not to say doctors do not do good. Many do, but many do evil and others are incompetent too. Many, and it appears you may be one, graduated at the bottom of their class.

You know nothing about the so called covid shots, but, probably, think they are the greatest thing since the wheel. After all, they came from that trusted group that paid their billions in fines and turned their lives around.

I worked a case in which one of your favored cardiologists ignore the patient when he warned the doctor his symptom were opposite of what he was used to. The record showed the doctor ignored him, until the tests came back [showing the patient was right]. By then, permanent damage was done. But, he was an expert, apparently, like you, so. . . .

Here's clue, since you seem to be playing the role of having the mythical memory of a gold fish - You know very little about, for example, quercetin (you, likely, hate the name because it has shown up again in the past year). That is obvious. Part of that reason is, big pharma cannot patent it, so there is not reason to dump millions into studying it. Oh, and don't forget you beloved pharma companies are for profit corporations and pay out obscene amounts to influence laws.




boatswain2PA said:


> Because Sudafed WORKS. We know exactly HOW it works, we have given billions of doses of it and it has worked EVERY SINGLE TIME. Nobody takes Sudafed and doesn't get at least some relief from their sinus congestion (they might get side effects, but their sinus congestion WILL get better. (for the nerds who want to get deeper into pharmacology than any naturoquack does - sudafed (pseudoephedrine) is an "adrenergic" medicine, specifically an "alpha adrenergic" that works mostly on the peripheral blood vessel. Being an adrenergic medicine, closely related to adrenaline (epinephrine) given off by your adrenal glands during periods of stress (fight or flight), this molecule triggers your peripheral blood vessels, including in your sinuses, to constrict. Less blood flow to your nose = less fluid going to your nose = less congestion in your nose = more air flowing through your nose = you can breathe better to run away or fight).
> 
> As for quercetin - yeah, most (real) doctors don't recommend it because there is no evidence that it works for sinus congestion, cancer, or any other claim that's out there about it. Naturoquacks will recommend you buy the bottle from them for $80/month.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Great five minute snappy come back.




boatswain2PA said:


> You went from doctors are tools for big pharma, then ignore the fact that doctors can't make money from big pharma like naturoquacks can, then whine because someone who worked hard enough to get ten times the education of a naturopath drives nice cars and lives in a nice house.
> 
> Good on you Kelly Craig. You know how to apply for the Darwin Awards. Make sure you consult your naturopath when you actually get sick so you can win that award.


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Kelly Craig said:


> Do you prescribe Sudafed for all your patients suffering from congestive heart failure


Nope, wouldn't be prudent.



Kelly Craig said:


> How could anyone become so stupid they believe only the for profit pharmaceutical companies have solutions?


How can someone be so dumb to think anyone would believe that?



Kelly Craig said:


> you are part of a group responsible for deaths that the likes of Stalin might be proud of. That is not to say doctors do not do good. Many do


Doctors = Stalin. Got it.


Kelly Craig said:


> You know nothing about the so called covid shots, but, probably, think they are the greatest thing since the wheel.


If you would peruse my posts here about the covid vaccinations you would find otherwise.



Kelly Craig said:


> Part of that reason is, big pharma cannot patent it, so there is not reason to dump millions into studying it.


Congratulations. This is the second factually accurate statement you have typed during this conversation. We will add it to the list of truths.

1. The sun will come up tomorrow.
2. Naturopaths are quacks.
3. Doctors don't know everything about everything.
4. Big pharma won't spend millions on studies of cheap supplements.

Of course, #4 is true because they don't NEED to do studies to get gullible people to buy them. After all, the gullible are already paying $400 a month to get them from their local naturoquacks office.





Kelly Craig said:


> Great five minute snappy come back.


Thanks, I thought so.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Kelly Craig said:


> other words, with regard to cardiology, you're an idiot.


So lets talk about this.

Tonight I will read probably 15 EKGs looking for STEMI or ischemia, looking for dangerous rates or rhythms, looking for things like Brugada, or HOCM, or wolf Parkinson white syndrome, or perhaps a S1Q3T3 pattern that would be suspicious of right heart strain indicating s pulmonary embolism. There are entire books written on EKGs that I will have to apply about 15 times tonight.

I might have to use some electricity to try to defebrillate or cardiovert someone out of a dangerous rhythm. I have to know how to identify which rhythms can be shocked, and how much electricity to use, and how many times.

I will likely treat someone in heart failure, determine if it is left or right sided, and carefully start correcting this.

The list goes on and on with what I do every shift with people's hearts.

.....yet you think I'm an idiot when it comes to cardiology.

Your application for the Darwin Awards is complete.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Really pretty easy, anything advertised on tv, dont eat it. Anything displayed at eye level in super market, dont eat that. Anything in the store with more than two or three ingredients, dont eat that either. And people may not like to eat their veggies, but probably nothing healthier. Eat a boatload of veggies and a little bit of everything else. Want to avoid something, avoid sugar and excess carbohydrates. Recommended MAXIMUM daily allowance of carbs in 2000 calorie diet is 275 grams. Most Americans eat far in excess of that.

As to the vaccines, each to their own. But I am not seeing vast numbers people that get the jab dropping dead like flies soon after. Is it as effective as they say, who knows. They obviously still dont know everything about covid. Nobody gets annointed from upon high with all knowledge immediately in any situation, it comes incrementally through trial and error and observation. But since it was unlikely I would drop dead from it, getting covid risk is high for old diabetic, and it didnt cost me more than gas money to get to the appointment, I got it. Even if you know nothing of science, its a worthwhile bet to get it IMHO, little risk, lot potential benefit. Had a bee sting size lump on neck for couple days after first shot, guessing lymph node reaction. Nothing from second shot. 

Hey anybody reading this maybe the exception and have bad reaction?? I think there have been some, but its rare. ALL vaccines have risk, its just usually much much smaller risk than suffering the disease. Now if I was somebody with problems with vaccines in past then yea I would have avoided it. Never had problem with vaccine in past, didnt with the covid vaccine. Those of us that grew up in different time, unless you were some fringe religious zealot that thought all disease was a punishment from God and shouldnt be avoided, then you didnt put up much of a fuss. Frankly as school kid or draftee in military, you didnt have any say. It was just done to you and that was that. Reason rarely had lot to do with bureaucracy and you wasted your breath trying and probably suffered punishment if you did try. Back then you learned to pick your fights.


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## DKJ (Jan 17, 2021)

CDC Recommended Vaccines for children - notice some require 4 "doses. Didn't have time to count but it is a heck of a lot of shots.









Immunization Schedules for 18 & Younger


View and print CDC recommended immunization schedules.




www.cdc.gov


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

DKJ said:


> CDC Recommended Vaccines for children - notice some require 4 "doses. Didn't have time to count but it is a heck of a lot of shots.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This just occurred to me 

The jab mandates, and the numbers of jabs are so American (me being one of those people, so I speak with experience with this).
If once is good, twice is better and the corolerry: If hitting it is good, than hitting it really hard is better. (Reality: sometimes it is better to loosen the bolt and than just tap, tappy, tap, tap!)


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## DKJ (Jan 17, 2021)

Kelly Craig said:


> One problem with your statement is, for example, someone who smoke depletes much of the C they take in.
> 
> If I were well and ate a couple grams of ascorbic acid, I'd come to understand the story of Montezuma's revenge. On the other hand, when I'm feeling puny, that same amount of C doesn't phase me.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> Honestly, protecting yourself from covid is much like other cold/flues.
> 
> If you have bad health you should remedy that ASAP if possible. DON'T SMOKE, or VAPE
> 
> ...


I live in Washington state and I supplement all year long. This far north, I cannot get what I need from the sun, especially as the cells on your face aren't great at converting sun to D3. 

To those supplementing with D3, consider adding K2. K2 is a like a traffic cop. If you take D3, you absorb more calcium, but without the D3, the your body may send the calcium to body parts like your joints which is not a good thing. The K2 facilitates the calcium going to the bones and teeth. I take a D3/K2 combo once a day with a meal that includes fat, then take a K2 away from the D3 and calcium as it has other benefits. I have yet to encounter a single doctor who prescribed D3 in conjunction with K2. Over the past 20 years of having my D3 checked 2x a year, only one primary doctor, later told me she had looked up K2 and agreed it was important. She worked for an HMO and it was not part of their protocol so I doubt she was able to recommend/prescribe it. Makes me wonder how many folks will end up with calcification of arteries and joints.


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## DKJ (Jan 17, 2021)

This is an interesting article on the subject of flu vaccine effectiveness. Note this is dated 2015 prior to the latest controversy. I love that even though the research community had tweaked to the fact that those that get fewer vaccines are better able to avoid getting sick, their first thought is how important it is to figure out why because they still want to push annual vaccines. Heaven forbid they entertain altering the vaccination schedule to one every 2 to 3 years. 









Getting a flu shot every year? More may not be better


Research increasingly suggests that getting flu shots repeatedly can gradually reduce the effectiveness of the vaccines under some circumstances.




www.statnews.com


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Current stats for my hospital:

Admitted Covid patients: 14 unvaccinated, 3 vaccinated
ICU Covid patient: 3 unvaccinated, 0 vaccinated
Covid patients on respiratory support: 13 unvaccinated, 1 vaccinated.

General population is about 30% fully vaccinated, 40% partially vaccinated (using old school method off 2 moderna/pfizer shots, or 1 J&J shot).

And these stats are probably before my partner admitted another unvaccinated young man to the ICU, will likely go on a vent as well.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

DKJ said:


> This is an interesting article on the subject of flu vaccine effectiveness. Note this is dated 2015 prior to the latest controversy. I love that even though the research community had tweaked to the fact that those that get fewer vaccines are better able to avoid getting sick, their first thought is how important it is to figure out why because they still want to push annual vaccines. Heaven forbid they entertain altering the vaccination schedule to one every 2 to 3 years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What a wishy washy article. 

“The policy of vaccinating every year has been generally successful,” Belongia said. “We wouldn’t want to change that unless we know for sure that we’re changing it to something that’s going to be better. And right now I don’t think we have any good idea what that would be.’’


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

doozie said:


> What a wishy washy article.
> 
> “The policy of vaccinating every year has been generally successful,” Belongia said. “We wouldn’t want to change that unless we know for sure that we’re changing it to something that’s going to be better. And right now I don’t think we have any good idea what that would be.’’


Wish they had an eye-rolling emoji with the "like" ones


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

doozie said:


> What a wishy washy article.
> 
> “The policy of vaccinating every year has been generally successful,” Belongia said. “We wouldn’t want to change that unless we know for sure that we’re changing it to something that’s going to be better. And right now I don’t think we have any good idea what that would be.’’


That is the theory of 'Let's do something, even if it is wrong'.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

boatswain2PA said:


> Current stats for my hospital:
> 
> Admitted Covid patients: 14 unvaccinated, 3 vaccinated
> ICU Covid patient: 3 unvaccinated, 0 vaccinated
> ...


What's the death rate in the two groups after hospitialization.?Early data showed the vaxed were 19x more likely to die ONCE ADMITTED compared to unvaxed. Your sample size is small and may be overly influenced by clustering.

The advantage that the vaxed seems to have had based on early data is waning as tiime goes by Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States - European Journal of Epidemiology

We've been lied to. Threats have been made against anyone who rtries to discuss the matter in an honest, data driven way. Data contradicting the politically driven Narrative has been suppressed. Forcing People Into COVID Vaccines Ignores Important Scientific Data


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)




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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Then there is this from the CDC. Yes, it only represents 43 patients who were among the first to have Omicron in the US but it is the only current data they have published. read it and see how well the vaccines prevent this variant. It also says only one of the 54 was hospitalized and that person was vaccinated.

*Characteristics of the First Investigated U.S. COVID-19 Cases Attributed to the Omicron Variant*
Details are available for 43 cases of COVID-19 attributed to the Omicron variant; 25 (58%) were in persons aged 18–39 years (Table). The earliest date of symptom onset was November 15 in a person with a history of international travel. Fourteen (33%) persons reported international travel during the 14 days preceding symptom onset or receipt of a positive test result. Among these cases of COVID-19 attributed to the Omicron variant, 34 (79%) occurred in persons who completed the primary series of an FDA-authorized or approved COVID-19 vaccine ≥14 days before symptom onset or receipt of a positive SARS-CoV-2 test result, including 14 who had received an additional or booster dose; five of the 14 persons had received the additional dose <14 days before symptom onset. Six (14%) persons had a documented previous SARS-CoV-2 infection. The most commonly reported symptoms were cough, fatigue, and congestion or runny nose. One vaccinated patient was hospitalized for 2 days, and no deaths have been reported to date. Case investigations have identified exposures associated with international and domestic travel, large public events, and household transmission.

SARS-CoV-2 B.1.1.529 (Omicron) Variant — United States, December 1–8, 2021 | MMWR (cdc.gov)


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

boatswain2PA said:


> Current stats for my hospital:
> 
> Admitted Covid patients: 14 unvaccinated, 3 vaccinated
> ICU Covid patient: 3 unvaccinated, 0 vaccinated
> ...


Thank you for those totally scientific statistics. Most statisticians believe that a sample group should represent ten percent of the available pool, or 100 individuals in a random grab, the larger the better, but we know that your status as a trained circus animal that reads EKGs and your complete neutrality enables you to extrapolate data accurately and objectively.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

doc- said:


> What's the death rate in the two groups after hospitialization.?Early data showed the vaxed were 19x more likely to die ONCE ADMITTED compared to unvaxed. Your sample size is small and may be overly influenced by clustering.
> 
> The advantage that the vaxed seems to have had based on early data is waning as tiime goes by Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States - European Journal of Epidemiology
> 
> We've been lied to. Threats have been made against anyone who rtries to discuss the matter in an honest, data driven way. Data contradicting the politically driven Narrative has been suppressed. Forcing People Into COVID Vaccines Ignores Important Scientific Data


I haven't seen anything saying vaxxed have higher death rates with hospitalization, please share. Early data will be heavily skewed toward those with more comorbidities, and expected higher death rates.

Got a sniffle? Tummyache? Diarrhea x1? We test you for covid now. IT COULD be we have widened the testing base is responsible for the results you posted in the EJE. One thing for sure, the vaccine doesn't prevent one from contracting and spreading CV, but it does likely reduce the chance of that. Another thing that is clear is that those who are vaccinated and contract covid are generally not as sick as those who are unvaccinated and contract covid.

Agree we've been lied to. But that doesn't mean that the vaccines are useless. 

The vaccines are good. Not great, and certainly not as good as TPTB promised us they would be ("no more masks, go back to normal!"). And there is a small risk to them, especially in young athletic men and peri/myocarditis (which is USUALLY easily treated). 

So, as in everything in medicine, we should apply risk/benefit decision making. If you are a young healthy male, the risk of the vaccine may be equal to the risk of covid. On the other end of the spectrum if you are a 60 yo obese diabetic with COPD, HTN, and five stents, the risk of covid is pretty extreme and much greater than the risk of the vaccine.

It should be up to each of us to determine, with the assistance of our doctor, where we fall on that spectrum.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Given you expertise, how can I easily get a test for antibodies that would be accurate?

I had the covid December 2019, I lived in Everette, Wa working for that big aircraft company. 
My doctor had no clue about what it was, but treated me for pain and that was a big help.
We did do an antibody test in May or so, but it was not good and came up with nothing.

Move forward two years and here I am with the flu! Bad, but not covid, although how can you be sure.

*Antibody tests seem only good for a year, is there something out there that I can use to check my antibodies and my restance to the covid?*
I don't want to make a big stink and draw attention to myself. I will not take the jab.
I live in the Great State of Maine now, and Thanks!, for listening.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Here's a new study from Hong Kong University where they tested the variants. The original strain was more infectious to the lungs than Delta and Omicron is 10X less than Delta. Omicron is 70% more infectious in the Bronchial tubes. OIW, since the Wuhan strain, the variants are becoming more and more an upper respiratory disease which is a good thing.

Omicron - 70 Times More Infectious Than Delta and Significantly Less Severe (Study from HKUMed) - YouTube


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Here's some fodder to chew on: New COVID-19 Cases and Hospitalizations Among...
Check out Figure 2-- graphs of hosptializations per 100,000 for CoV, vaxed vs un-vaxed.
The vaxed get hsopitalized at a rate of ~0.5/100,000.....The unvaxed at ~1.5/100,000.

The Needed To Treat number (NTT) calculates out to be 100,000. (!!!)

Would a new antibioitc that improved the outcome in only one case in every 100,000 uses ever get licensure? They'd laugh them right out of the room after reviewing the application.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

doc- said:


> Here's some fodder to chew on: New COVID-19 Cases and Hospitalizations Among...
> Check out Figure 2-- graphs of hosptializations per 100,000 for CoV, vaxed vs un-vaxed.
> The vaxed get hsopitalized at a rate of ~0.5/100,000.....The unvaxed at ~1.5/100,000.
> 
> ...


Looking at same figure 2, but the 3rd graph. The NNT for age >65 went from about 6000 up to about 20,000, then back down to about 14k, depending on the wave.

Covid clearly not terribly dangerous to young and healthy, and NYC is full of young healthy (rural America has much older population), so this isn't too surprising.

Yet the first wave of covid crushed their healthcare system (which is always pretty crushed anyway).


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

boatswain2PA said:


> Looking at same figure 2, but the 3rd graph. The NNT for age >65 went from about 6000 up to about 20,000, then back down to about 14k, depending on the wave.
> 
> Covid clearly not terribly dangerous to young and healthy, and NYC is full of young healthy (rural America has much older population), so this isn't too surprising.
> 
> Yet the first wave of covid crushed their healthcare system (which is always pretty crushed anyway).


??? I don't see where you got those numbers....Use the left hand abscissa--The max at the right hand end of the graph for 65+ demo was 7/100,000, so, I'll revise the NNT number for that demo to 7/100,000 = 14,285, still absurdly inefficient.

So much of our emotional understanding here is due to the "crisis mode" presentation to us by the media...For instance, so many American parents are led to believe that if they don't keep their kids on a leash, they will surely be kidnapped every time they appear in public. In fact, almost no kids are ever "kIdnapped." Virtually very event labeled as an abduction is really just a frustrated parent running away with their own kid in violation of divorce/custody settlement provisions.....Same with CoViD-- after almost two full years, only 1 in 6 Americans have come down with it, and the survival rate is 99%.-- many of whom are about to die from other causes anyway.


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## Wellbuilt (Dec 25, 2020)

We have managed to avoid the virus so far but one of my daughter pop positive yesterday .
My wife and one sun are not In good health , I’m 60 withe hi BP and diabetes ☹ 
Every one is vaxed here but me , so I’m going to get a first hand look at how real this all is.
There are 9 people quarantine it’s going to be a covid Christmas 🎄


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

doc- said:


> ??? I don't see where you got those numbers....Use the left hand abscissa--The max at the right hand end of the graph for 65+ demo was 7/100,000, so, I'll revise the NNT number for that demo to 7/100,000 = 14,285, still absurdly inefficient.
> 
> So much of our emotional understanding here is due to the "crisis mode" presentation to us by the media...For instance, so many American parents are led to believe that if they don't keep their kids on a leash, they will surely be kidnapped every time they appear in public. In fact, almost no kids are ever "kIdnapped." Virtually very event labeled as an abduction is really just a frustrated parent running away with their own kid in violation of divorce/custody settlement provisions.....Same with CoViD-- after almost two full years, only 1 in 6 Americans have come down with it, and the survival rate is 99%.-- many of whom are about to die from other causes anyway.


Follow that line across the timeframe of the between the 2 waves. While the vaccinated remains >1/100k, the unvaccinated go from 17/100k (nnt 6240 using 17-1/100k) at the end of first wave on May 3rd, to about 4/100k (nnt of 33000 using 4-1/100k) at end of June between the waves. And then creep back up to 7/100k (nnt of 16660 using 7-1/100k) by July 19th when the Delta variant starts hitting.

Reading a little deeper, and clearly shown in the graph, is the timing of this study was the summer lull between the waves. While the NNT was 6250 in May, I think it is reasonable to assume that line of hospitalizations/100k had been coming down for a while as I think NYC had peak first wave sometime in March.

Agree with the hysteria. 

However what many of us see every day is not hysteria, it is real. While this shouldn't be a "lock down, don't go near others or YOURE GONNA DIE!!!!!" disease the media and other TPTB make it out to be....this is a nasty bug that is NOT the common cold for many people (especially the old, fat, diabetic, etc).

And we clearly, and I mean CLEARLY see the benefits of vaccination. Lots of old people vaccinated, diagnosed with covid incidentally or with relatively mild sx and going home. Meanwhile unvaccinated are almost always sicker.


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