# There must be a better way...



## GoddessKristie (Jun 18, 2007)

I have been trying to calculate our solar needs and according to findsolar.com it will take me 49 years to break even. That is not acceptable. Isn't there a better way? (btw that was assuming $9 watt purchase price for the system) 
I used the Bergey calculator to estimate the cost for wind and the payback period was about the same. 
What has your experience been? What is the best way to really know?


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Its because there are 2 components.One is the production.The other is usage.

Using the power you produce,efficiently, has to be factored in.That means efficient appliances,etc.Not the power wasters you currently use.And it means lifestyle changes.Dont use it,turn it off.Turn off all the parasitic users,like instant on TV,radio,anything with a digital clock always plugged in.All those wall warts sucking power when the device isnt in use.That waste has to stop and when you are making your own power it will!

Until you work on the second part of the equation then producing your own power just isnt for you,far too expensive.


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## GoddessKristie (Jun 18, 2007)

That's true, but the less energy I need the less money I'm saving every month overy buying it from the utility company. Even using half the energy and buying half the system still leaves me with the same result.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

You will most likely never save money over grid power.If your goal is to put in a system to save money over grid costs,yes,I bet it *would *take 50 years.Grid power is just too cheap right now.

Your return is in freedom and protection from outages and increasing costs/availability in the future.Not in savings over grid costs at this time.

The way I look at it is one new car equals power for life.And if you can do it yourself,and it isnt that hard in many cases with renewables,costs are lower still.

You have to cut your usage drastically.The money savings on the system return is in making your system far less in upfront costs by using MUCH less and what you do use,using far more efficiently.Not to decrease system size and usage in a 1:1 manner,but 1:4,1:8,something like that.

Sorry,I dont know about the program and numbers (admittedly Im confused) you are using but the renewable energy experts here (and thats not me) will,and can figure out usage and costs for you,and size a system.

*But if your only goal is to produce power at home,cheaper than the grid,that isnt going to happen.*

What is your power usage now and how do you use this power,and what size system do you want? Thats the info they need to make sense of this for you.

They will be along shortly,they live for this stuff,which is pretty cool too!


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## Andy Nonymous (Aug 20, 2005)

Booboo, I happened to recently meet an engineer who is collaborating on prototyping a new type of solar panel that could conceivably bring the cost down to about a dollar a watt when mass produced. Obviously he didn't go into details as the project could put the AE market on it's ear, and they are dealing with some patent pending technology that needs to be kept under wraps. 

As things *currently* stand, alternative energy is still not "cheap" compared to most grid electric, but that is subject to change, on both sides of the equation.


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

Producing your own power will be far more expensive than purchasing it from the utility company. Grid power is the most affordable electricity option out there - why would you want to replace it with something far less capable and far more expensive?

If you're looking to save money, look towards reducing your current energy consumption. Look to things like your vehicle, insulation, doors, windows, heating & cooling, appliances, etc. - even solar heat can be a much more practical option compared to solar electricity.

The best place to start is to determine exactly how much energy you use, exactly how much each "device" uses, etc. - this will allow you to make more informed decisions with regard to what effects future changes may have. What you're looking for, obviously, is a reasonable "return on investment". As you mentioned, a 50 year break-even point is just wasting your money. Some small/simple projects/investments may have a break-even point of only a few years.

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GoddessKristie said:


> That's true, but the less energy I need the less money I'm saving every month overy buying it from the utility company. Even using half the energy and buying half the system still leaves me with the same result.


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

GoddessKristie said:


> I have been trying to calculate our solar needs and according to findsolar.com it will take me 49 years to break even. That is not acceptable. Isn't there a better way? (btw that was assuming $9 watt purchase price for the system)
> I used the Bergey calculator to estimate the cost for wind and the payback period was about the same.
> What has your experience been? What is the best way to really know?


Hi,
Are you looking to save only electrical energy, or is any energy saving of interest?

Once you get out of the solar electric area, paybacks on other energy saving schemes get much shorter.

Gary


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## GoddessKristie (Jun 18, 2007)

We are working on cutting all of our energy costs. We're currently on gas heat, and are exploring other options. Not having a woodlot wood is not a reasonable alternative for us. We are working to cut back our electricity usage, so we are certainly not at our rock bottom and are using quite a bit right now. 
We're curious about these. Anyone have a cost per watt on them?
http://www.uni-solar.com/interior.asp?id=102


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I sure do like my rack of Unisolar 64's . . .they really do put out.

If your thinking of the roof "shingles" . . . . . . .for the warranty to be ineffect they MUST be installed be a factory trained installer. . . . . .and not at a Kmart price . . . . . . . . .
.


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## GoddessKristie (Jun 18, 2007)

mightybooboo said:


> *But if your only goal is to produce power at home,cheaper than the grid,that isnt going to happen.*



I should have commented on this earlier, I guess. My goal is security. DH and I are working toward the ultimate goal that if something tragic happened or if DH lost his job we would be able to continue living here in normalcy. We are willing to put some money into solar or wind power toward that end, but it just seems absurdly expensive!
Do installers charge a fee to do an estimate?


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

A lot of solar site assessors do a site visit and an estimate of energy available, based on your needs and your past usage, and will spend perhaps as much as a couple of hours at your site and then spend most of a day doing calculations and writing up a report. They might charge a couple of hundred dollars for this, depending on the time it takes, how extensive it needs to be, and how far they have to drive to the site. 

If you want security and not cheap energy, the first step is still to reduce your energy usage. As a rule of thumb, every dollar spent reducing energy use will save $3 on the renewable energy system, maybe more.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

. . ."Fee for an estimate" . .usually yes . . .but that can get absorbed if you commit to a system.

Kind of expensive to be running around the countryside giving 'free' estimates.
I get a lot of what I call 'tire kicker' phone calls. . . ."I wanna put up one of dem solar panels so that my electric bill will be nutthin" "Oh ya can ya do it for $39.95"

But sitting down with a designer\installer is The way to go.
You lay out your wants, and the designer will put together a system that will work for you.


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

GoddessKristie said:


> We are working on cutting all of our energy costs. We're currently on gas heat, and are exploring other options. Not having a woodlot wood is not a reasonable alternative for us. We are working to cut back our electricity usage, so we are certainly not at our rock bottom and are using quite a bit right now.
> We're curious about these. Anyone have a cost per watt on them?
> http://www.uni-solar.com/interior.asp?id=102


Hi,
This may or may not be an appealing way for you to go, but what we did was to layout all the potential energy saving projects we could do -- this ranged from insulation, and sealing to a more efficient car to solar heating and to solar electricity, .... We estimated the cost and savings for each project, and did the ones that had the best payback first. At this point we have cut our energy use by a bit over 60%, and this is saving us about $4800 a year in energy costs. We have spent a total of $11,000 so far. The only remaining large project is the solar electricity which we put off til last because the payback was so long, but I figure we can do a PV system this summer, and it will effectively be paid for by the savings from the projects we have done already.
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Half/Half.htm

The best 8 projects cost $378, and save $097 per year!
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Half/DirtCheap.htm

Gary

All


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

If you are already grid-connected, consider yourself fortunate and just minimize waste. In my case, my house is off the power grid, and it would have cost many thousands of dollars to get a power line brought in. That was part of my reasoning for 'going solar', although I have to admit I really find the whole concept facinating. Its a good feeling to know that the sun is doing the 'heavy lifting' for me, and giving me 'free' electricity with no pollution and minimal maintenence on the system. Of course the upfront costs are substantial, but I consider it a long-term investment. If, however, I had a powerline run to an existing house, it would be very hard, if not impossible, to financially justify the expense of an alternative energy system.
Keep in mind there are certain state and federal tax credits and rebates that can substantially reduce your out-of-pocket expenses for a renewable energy system. Here is a link to some of that info...

http://www.dsireusa.org/


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

And as others here have mentioned, photovoltaics DO NOT have a very favorable payback period, but solar thermal systems do. Heating water and or air with the sun is a much more efficient way to do things, and you will recoup your expenses much faster, something like 7 to 10 years on a solar hot water system.


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## Willowdale (Mar 19, 2007)

Off-grid electrical systems pay for themselves immediately where the cost of connection to the grid is very high. My original quote for connecting to the grid was $30k, enough to buy a pretty decent system for a conserving household.

However the evil power company was replaced by an electrical coop in our area. They're coming out this week to give me a new quote for the grid connection. If it's under $10k, I'm going with the grid. I would *prefer* to be off grid, but if the capital outlay has to be recouped then that energy independence becomes a lower priority for me.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

OntarioMan said:


> As you mentioned, a 50 year break-even point is just wasting your money.


Which is exactly where OPEC, Big Oil and Coal, and the electric companies want you. Its the reason I am so happy that gas is close to $4.00 and I hope it goes to $6 or even more. Why you ask? am I crazy? no, it'll spur development of alternative energy sources - the higher gas goes the sooner we'll have hydrogen and other sources of energy.
Peace of mind of not being dependant on 'the grid' is enough for some people, and not for others. The question is not whether its going to pay for itself in a reasonable amount of time - as many have pointed out its not really cost effective currently, the question is - is it worth it to you?

America MUST be energy independant or we'll turn into just another third world nation. Is it going to hurt? yes. Will it be worth it? yes


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## dunewalker (Mar 4, 2007)

mnn2501 said:

"America MUST be energy independant or we'll turn into just another third world nation. Is it going to hurt? yes. Will it be worth it? yes"

America (actually, the United States) has not been an energy-independent nation since the 1970s, when it was the world's largest oil exporter. The United States is rapidly "turning into just another third world nation" as the cheap-energy-dependent culture collapses amidst astronomically-rising energy prices. Ironically, one attribute that most "3rd-world nations have had in common is "energy independence". The goal of international corporations in developing 3rd world economies has always been to make them dependent on the global economic system. That includes using large amounts of imported energy.


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

Grid tie systems are many times about half of the cost of off grid systems,
as you do not need a battery system,

also in the aspect of solar I would think with a little planing one could "grow" the system as one goes, along, adding more panels as one can afford them,

If your goal is to disconnect from the grid, I would think that after you get to the point where you have enough panels, then look at the battery bank, and the inverter system for normal use. (at least with solar I think one could build a system as one goes along much easier than some other systems, battery banks are not usually compatible for additional batteries added at later times, wind is fairly one time with out totally replacement,).

also check into any state and other possible incentives that may help pay for the system to cut its cost.


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

another thing, IN 1999 and 2000 I want to put up a wind-turbine, and was looking at a brand (going through old information and papers) it was $13,000 then, and the pay back was about 30 years, (grid tie),
the local power company did nearly everything to stop the project, and succeeded,

I rechecked this year, after the GOV, told them they would be interested in renewable energies, I looked up the turbine again and it is right at $30,000 now for the same unit,
again with a 30 year pay back, yes 8 years have passed, (this is with no incentives by any agency), but that $13,000 now would have nearly been pay off, at the increase of costs, (8 years ago I could have afforded "stretched some" the $13,000 now I can't afford, the $30,000 as my income has not gone up), I know my power bills have increased some over the years, but I do not think 3 X in the last 8 years, but it seems like they have doubled, I had records (money spent not kWh) back to 2003 and my average bill has increased 50% dollar wise, I think my usage is about the same.

I personally think that the only way energy cost will go is up, and up and up some more here in the near future,

(one other thing with solar tho, they keep promising new price and manufacturing breakthroughs jsut around the corner, Evey year).


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