# Shipping container basement, what's the problem??



## Muleman

So,I am planning a cabin 12' x 24' and I have been putting it off, because I really want a basement under it. But the cost of cement and mainly the cost of forming it and the time involved has had me putting it off. I was looking through the local CL adds and there they are 20' shipping containers in the $1500.00 range, and that got me to thinking. What would be the problem with just coating the outside of the container in tar and setting it in the ground for the basement portion?? I do not want to live in the basement, it will be a storm shelter/cellar for food storage etc. I just can not think of a reason why it would not work yet, but maybe I am just overlooking something?? Any opinions on this idea? 

I know I would still need to provide drainage, etc. around the base, same as with a normal concrete basement, but it sure would save a lot of time forming and tying re-bar and all. I could even do it this winter, as I would not have to worry about concrete freezing. I have a Cat 312 track hoe, so digging the hole and setting it would not be a problem. Building codes are also a non issue, as there are none here outside city limits.


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## mike554

Don't know about the container part but check out Superior Walls. I would think for a cabin that small the walls wouldn't be that much. You still need to pour the pad for the basement floor though.

www.mktimberworks.com


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## Solar Geek

Looked for you and here is what I found. Hope it helps.

http://www.custom1contracting.com/shippingcontainerfoundation.html

http://www.hometuneup.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-shipping-container-homes/

Old but helpful thread on it here; note midway down the issue of moisture build-up inside. http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/co...n/437061-considering-shipping-containers.html

Not a Pinterest fan but this page shows a ton of containers used underground
http://www.pinterest.com/darrollr/shipping-container-conex-underground/


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## Muleman

Mike,
Thanks for the info. I looked at the superior site. Looks really really nice, but no way that is getting shipped to me in my budget. The trucking alone will probably come close to the price of the container delivered. 

Geek,
Thanks for the links. That prompted me to do a search and it seems this is a much debated topic, that I was unaware of. Seems there are claims from' it is the best thing since sliced bread, to, It is unsafe and you will die if you even think about the idea. There are people who have successfully done this, so I will continue to research it an look into it a bit more. Under the cabin I would not plan to cover the top with dirt, as it would be under the cabin. I am thinking bury all but a about 2 feet. leave that sticking up and berm or concrete around it. Then frame your floor for your cabin over it, maybe connect to it even and create an access point. Tornado shelter is important where we live, this is my main concern, but dry storage for canned goods etc, would be a good use of the space, while waiting for the tornado to come (or not come??). One suggestion I seen said to stand RR ties all up along the edge then back fill to the RR ties. We have good red clay here, so once back filled it will set up and not continually keep shifting and pushing in on the sidewalls. Seems a viable idea at this point?


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## simi-steading

I wouldn't even think about it... They are meant to support weight on their corner posts, Not on their flat sides and roof.. It might work for 5-10-20 years, but eventually they will rust out and fail... 

You are building an investment.. Do it right the first time and it won't become a headache later in life... Cutting corners usually ends up costing more in the long run than doing it right the first time.


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## Muleman

Simi, Thanks for the input.

Like I said, throwing around ideas and this one popped up. I have found several people who have done such things and been successful. I am not sure in following their builds that they actually saved money or had a better setup, although maybe in some cases just as good maybe? The best I have seen have used several different methods to brace the weak spots. RR ties stood up around the side for example. However, this would prove to add substantial cost as the last ones I bought for corner post in my fencing last year were $12.00 each, and it would take a lot to go all the way around the container. 

So, I ran a few numbers. basically a 8'x20' container would cost about $1800.00 where I live, if I pick it up in Memphis, which is 3 hours away. Not a problem as I have the means to do so, but it would be a full day gone, which would have to be added to the construction time. Concrete building supplies are available locally. Then I would need Tar or another sealer for the outside (same as with concrete) and insulation (same as with concrete) So I could set it on the gravel, put insulation and RR ties around it and push the dirt back around it. Since I have no intention of covering the roof with dirt it would be a non-issue, I am done. The downside is it is smaller than the cabin (12'x24') so I will still need to block up for the foundation of the house to set on. In the end I do not think it would save much, probably cost the same or more as concrete, just might go in a tad quicker, but probably not over a day or two in all honesty.

SO now I have another question. Block walls or poured walls for a basement?? I have run the numbers and materials for the poured basement look to be around $2000.00 NOT INCLUDING THE COST OF FORMS!! That would be extra.

Pouring a floor then block walls and a concrete roof would be around the same in material and the only forms I would need would be for the roof. 

Anybody got opinions on poured basements as opposed to block basements?

I am planning 2 of these, one for the house and one for a canning shed the same size, so the forms for the walls could be reused.


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## sustainabilly

Have you estimated ICF walls? From what I've read, unless someone's trying to gouge you, $ for poured vs. ICF's is close enough to warrant a look see. Then, you have to figure in the insulation you get that's part of ICF's. That would cost you more on top of a poured or block basement. If moisture is a concern, the thermal breaks on the ext. and int. inherent in ICF's will go a long way towards fixing that. There's a product called fast foot that will isolate the footings from the ground if you want even more moisture proofing/thermal break. Regulating any temp/moisture fluctuations via passive means results in less energy usage for fans or dehumidifiers.


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## Muleman

I actually did consider ICF's and need to look into them more, but so far all of the ones I have found had very thick center concrete sections of 6" to 9". I was not planning walls that thick (If I were to pour them). So the concrete alone would be more, due to the extra volume needed to fill them. But I will check some more at different sizes. I am really leaning more towards blocks. This will not be a finished basement. I will probably just plan on painting the inside of the blocks white and paint the concrete ceiling and floor and call it good, then put in some shelving for can goods etc. Maybe store some things in plastic totes or possibly a small freezer?


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## fireweed farm

When researching ICF 5-6 years ago, I got the feeling that while it IS a great idea, the person who saves money is the contractor alone.


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## Muleman

I actually know a few people who have used the styrofoam blocks and build a few building and basements n the area. They all told me it was more expensive in the end that the block jobs they had done. For a house I may consider it. I want a basement. I do not want to have to panel the inside or otherwise finish it. A few coats of white paint on a concrete or block wall and I am done, if I go that route. They are probably good in some situations though?


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## Solar Geek

We have an ICF home and basement. Yes it is more expensive.

However, we have owned 7 homes and lived in 13. EVERY HOME WITH STACKED CONCRETE BLOCKS leaked. No kidding. And the ones with simple poured walls did not. 

The problem with the concrete block basement is there is a ready path for water, not just down through the center (see article below), unless you use that very expensive waterproofingsystem similar to this

https://www.everdry.com/system/system.php

We had to have them come and do the system on an existing home in Milwaukee and it was costly. Then used them when building 5 years later - much cheaper when building and not retrofitting.


Here is the best explanation I can find. Pardon the long quote.

"DEAR TIM: What is the difference between concrete block and poured concrete foundation walls? Which one is better? The lot I am going to build upon has a seasonably high water table. Which of the wall systems would insure a dry basement? Diane J., Redwood Falls, MN

DEAR DIANE: I think it might have been easier to answer a question such as: Is a glorious sunrise more beautiful than a magnificent sunset? The truth of the matter is that both building materials - concrete block and poured concrete - can yield superior foundation walls so long as they are installed correctly. All too often builders and sub-contractors fail to realize the limitations of certain masonry materials. When this happens, foundation failures are a common occurrence.

The first thing to realize is that concrete block is made from poured concrete. The primary ingredients in concrete block happen to be: Portland cement, gravel aggregate and sand. These are the same ingredients you would find in a poured concrete foundation. The only difference being the size of the gravel used in each application. Typically you will see gravel stones as large as three-quarter inch diameter in a poured concrete foundation. A concrete block may have gravel no larger than the size of a pea.

*Poured concrete foundations are solid through and through.* This happens by default as the plastic concrete flows from the ready mix trucks into the foundation forms. *The typical concrete block foundation is not solid. The concrete blocks that are used to build block foundations, by their very nature, are hollow.*

_When concrete blocks are stacked on top of one another, you can look down through the center of the foundation. After the concrete blocks are laid, the voids can be filled with a cement-based mortar or poured concrete that contains small pea gravel. If the builder does this, then the filled concrete block walls are nearly identical to poured concrete walls._

But simply doing this is not enough to satisfy myself, code officials and structural engineers. Concrete and things made from concrete or cement tend to have fantastic compressive strength. Often it is measured in the thousands of pounds per square inch range. But the same material typically has only one-tenth the strength when you apply a tension or stretching force to it. Bending a poured concrete or concrete block wall creates tension. Backfilled soil against a wall produces tension as the soil pushes against the wall. Poor quality soil creates tension on a foundation as more and more weight is added to the foundation as the house is built.

You can strengthen poured concrete and concrete block walls by including reinforcing steel. Often you will see horizontal steel bars placed in the lower and upper sections of poured foundation walls. This steel often has a tensile strength of 40,000 pounds per square inch. This horizontal steel helps prevent vertical cracks should the foundation drop or heave. Horizontal wire fabric can also be placed in the mortar joints between layers of concrete block to achieve the same result in a concrete block wall.

Vertical reinforcing steel is also very important. This steel can be put in both a poured concrete foundation and a concrete block wall that will have the hollow voids filled with cement grout or pea gravel concrete. The reinforcing steel should be one-half inch in diameter and these rods should be connected to the poured concrete footer that the foundation rests upon. This steel should be placed every two feet on center.

Neither wall system will be waterproof. If you want a dry basement or crawlspace you must apply a foundation waterproofing system to the exterior of the foundation walls after they are built. 

In addition, a drain piping system needs to be at the base of the wall adjacent to the footer. This pipe is covered with two or three feet of washed gravel. The gravel is then covered with six inches of straw or a sheet of tar paper before dirt is placed over it. The straw and tar paper prevent silt from the fluffed up backfill dirt from clogging the gravel. The water that flows through the soil and makes it to the pipe is then drained to daylight if the house is built on a sloping lot. If the house is built on a level lot, the drain pipe often empties into a sump pit."
http://www.askthebuilder.com/poured-concrete-vs-block-walls/

Hope this helps. SG


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## Muleman

SG, thanks for taking the time to post the info. you found, I really appreciate it. I have not made my decision yet as to what I will do, both have advantages and disadvantages. Honestly the biggest disadvantage to poured concrete in my mind is that it requires forms and a concrete truck, the driver along with everyone else he talks to will know exactly what you have built underground. 

BTW, Where I live was considered as a place to build a lake some years back. They took core samples and had geological reports done and determined the soils and subsoils would not hold water and would leak, so drainage is not a big issue here.


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## texican

Shipping containers aren't designed for any pressure on the side walls or roof.... can withstand anything, on the four corners, but nowhere else. Try it, under your home, and be prepared for disaster, unless you build a reinforced cement 'room' for it to sit in, without anything touching except the floor, and "I" would have it off the floor elevated. And if your going to go through that much trouble, avoid the container altogether.

Imagine having a home, with the basement caved in, sacrificing the structural integrity of the home above it....


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## Muleman

Well, as I said considering the cost being equivalent and some other considerations, I have decided against the idea, however, if the cost was much less I would still consider it.

Texican, I think you misunderstood my intention, or maybe I did not explain it well. The container has no top load. The house is not sitting on the container, at all. The house would simply be setting "over" the container, thus allowing a hole to be cut in the top to allow access to the container below. The House would be supported by a footing totally separate from the container. The container was 8'x20', dig a 6' hole set the container in. add RR ties around perimeter, back fill to 6' deep, thus leaving 2' above the surface. Now go out around the container and build a 12' x 24' footer and build your house with the floor above the container. Cut a hole in the floor of the house and the top of the container to allow an access point. Add ventilation as needed, the same as you would with any basement. This can be done and has been done. What is the life expectancy of the container? IDK, nobody really knows, it is all a guess, and all depends on many factors such as water table and what product is used to coat the outside of the container. 

However, like I said before, when you compare the cost once you add the RR ties to support the back fill pressure, there really is no money savings, over a traditional block wall, only maybe, and I do mean "Maybe" a slight time advantage in completion time?

I think in the same way, just because one person can do something does not mean anyone can do the same thing. Just because one person fails at something does not mean it can not be done. I have spent some time researching this subject since first posting the question and I can tell you, many have succeeded and many have failed. This neither proves nor disproves the viability of the container, but proves or disproves the abilities of the person doing the building. 

My main objective in considering a container for a basement was basically 2 things. Money savings, and Time savings. My research and calculations shows that there is no cost savings and the time saving, when considering travel time to get a container, and the time spent setting all the RR ties, is minimal at best. Therefore, for my needs it offers no benefit, for someone else with different considerations there may be a benefit.


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## texican

If you do get one, try and check it out before purchase/delivery... to make sure it doesn't have some toxic smell...

Have a cousin, planning on doing something very similar.... unfortunately for him, he made a mistake in his personal life, and is now in federal lockup, awaiting trial.... He has a full 40' container, hidden deep inside his house (above ground).... you'd never know it was there, from the outside of the house....

he was going to get half a dozen from his business dealings... and I was to get one, in exchange for sawing lumber... oh well....


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## Locoster

As I see it, the shipping container is a bad solution. Have you considered building a treated wood basement? I know they have a bad reputation in many areas, but they are in excellent reputation in other areas. If you are in heavy clay, forget treated wood, but if you are in a sandy soil area, it might be the best choice. I was considerng a treated wood foundation primarily for the relative cost of concrete. A concrete foudation in my area, for a 1,600 square foot house, cost around $65,000 (that is in Canadian dollars) and a treated wood foundation at around 1/3 of that, including a wooden floor, and insulation would be extra. One advantage you probably have never heard of is that a treated wood foundation can be moved, should you, or nature, decides you should move to a different location or you can sell the house for removal complete with foundation.


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## Muleman

locoster, I am not sure where you are located, as you have not filled in your location information, but a treated wood foundation would be a very temporary solution here where I am. Any wood that is in contact with the ground here will have a lifespan of probably 2 to 3 years at the most. I am guessing you are out west somewhere.

I always envied you guys out west with those 100 year old split rail fences still standing. I built an round pen with red cedar post and oak rails and every other year I had to replace the rails as they would be rotted away. Wood of any kind here in contact with the ground is a bad idea, if the rot does not get it, the termites will make their way up the wood right into the rest of the house.


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## ||Downhome||

If your main intention is a storm shelter, why not a large culvert.

They have the strength to be buried.

You can sometimes find it used.

I found a ad for someone selling 90' x 10' at half price, is old ad though.
They say they purchased at $220 a linear foot.

Here is the Ad may still be available,

http://www.diggerslist.com/sale/building-materials/10-diameter-corrugated-metal-culvert-pipe/99747/

The only other option I can come up with is Start collecting Stones and Boulders.

Lot of Basements in older homes are a poured floor and Stone walls.

I can get stone delivered here for 75 a ton and 75 delivery they can drop I think 5 ton at a time.


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## haypoint

Clay soil does not shift around like sand does, but it expands and contracts far more. Therefore, over time, like a few years, clay puts a lot of pressure on basement walls.
Generally cost and durability go hand in hand. The most solid and longest lasting is more costly. A tar covered steel box buried in the ground may be cheap, but you don't want your home built on top of a rusted out collapsing giant can.
Blocks are a buck and a half a piece.Anyone can lay blocks. Pour footings, lay blocks, build your cabin. Do drain tile and washed gravel around the footings. Either run the drain off to a lower spot or put in a sump pump. No need to pour a floor.


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## Lilith

Curious, but if you built it right, you could easily use a container under your house. Take measures for drainage, and rust prevention, and don't count on the container for structural support. I've seen plenty of homes built on stilts. Just make the supporting structures tall enough that you could place the container under and between them. In the 10 - 20 years it takes to rust out and collapse, you can easily be saving the money to replace it with concrete or cinder block. I would plan to leave an area clear of trees and other obstacles to remove and/or replace the container when it does collapse.


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## SimplerTimez

I'm considering options for an underground shelter/root cellar in the future too, and also on a shoestring budget and with no building skills.

I know zilch about concrete. Could something like this work? (couldn't find pricing)

http://americanconcrete.com/commercial/box_culverts/box-culverts.htm

~ST


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## Danaus29

Just a couple thoughts I wanted to add. And yes, I am aware you decided against the container basement.

Railroad ties for reinforcement, here termites love railroad ties. The previous owners had used them around flower beds in the back. I don't know how long they had been here but the ties were full of termites and mostly hollow. 

Block walls, yes, they leak. Not near as strong as poured. Okay for above ground use but not my ideal basement. 

I see the ICF walls have already been discussed. IMO, what you spend in the additional concrete will be returned with the savings in heating that basement. Oh right, checked your location. Heating won't be an issue like it is for those of us in the "about to be frozen" north.


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## idigbeets

cranbrook said:


> Clay soil does not shift around like sand does, but it expands and contracts far more. Therefore, over time, like a few years, clay puts a lot of pressure on basement walls.
> Generally cost and durability go hand in hand. The most solid and longest lasting is more costly. A tar covered steel box buried in the ground may be cheap, but you don't want your home built on top of a rusted out collapsing giant can.
> Blocks are a buck and a half a piece.Anyone can lay blocks. Pour footings, lay blocks, build your cabin. Do drain tile and washed gravel around the footings. Either run the drain off to a lower spot or put in a sump pump. No need to pour a floor.



If I was using basement as cold storage, I'd want a floor.


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## solar

I've owned several shipping containers and I agree that a poured wall basement is the way to go if you must have a basement. As others have pointed out, shipping containers just ain't made for side loads or roof loads. 

Here is an interesting thread on another forum about building a (single wide) shipping container cabin:

http://www.goldismoney2.com/showthread.php?70531-CANtainer-Camp

enjoy!


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## LittleRedHen

Why not just add the shipping containers into your cabin?? I have two 20 footers with a root overtop and lean to. I could certainly insulate and finish it out into living areas if i needed


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## Muleman

LRH, I could add a container above ground, but that kinda defeats the purpose of having a basement, as far as cool storage and mainly as a place to provide protection from a tornado. We have had several tornado's come close in the last few years and many homes destroyed and several people killed. A basement in my opinion where I live is a must for such things.


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## wy_white_wolf

When the tornado destoys the cabin and leaves a debris pile on top of the container, how do you plan on getting out?

Better to have it away from the house. Watch any old movie about tornados. The celar/shelter is away from the house so they don't get trapped.

WWW


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## Muleman

The problem with it being away from the house, is that you have to make it into it, for it to do you any good. I am not going to go and sit in a storm shelter for 1/2 hour, but at the same time I want it readily assessable. Getting out is a simple task, you make more than one entry and exit. That is what I did with the one at our current house. I poured it in concrete, after I dug a hole with the trackhoe for it, then added onto the house over the top of it. You can access it from above by going down into it from the room on the house. You can also get out of it through a side access, which opens up under a concrete ledge that is built to keep debris from directly on top of the exit. However, after seeing several homes about a mile away down at the river after one for the last tornado's went through, there looks to be no need to worry about debris. There was none. All that was left was a slick cement slab and everything else was gone!!! 

Just as a side note. There were an older couple who had just retired and moved to their home a year before. They had a storm shelter separate from the house. Neither one of them had time to make it out to the shelter and died when the house was blown away. Would they have had time to make it to a basement had it been under the house with direct access from the house?? I can not say for sure. I can say it stands to reason they would have had a better chance to have had the time to get in it.


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## mainehomesteader

Muleman said:


> I just can not think of a reason why it would not work yet, but maybe I am just overlooking something?? Any opinions on this idea?


Big difference between 8" thick concrete wall and a 1/8" thick steel wall supporting a house. I think it would collapse on you, but that's just my instinctive thought, I'm not a structural engineer. 

Often times the best way to do something is the hard way.


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## Gray Wolf

It sounds like you will only have a foot or so between the container and the house foundation so I'm guessing you are planning on an extended foundation to get down to undisturbed/bearing soil around your container. If that is the case, why backfill the container at all? 

If you are planning on mechanically compacting the container backfill to 90-95% to get a more shallow house foundation - you will probably cave in the sides before you get compaction.

Is all this going to be on flat ground or do you have enough fall to let a perimiter drain drain somewhere?


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