# Living in our camper through the winter



## HappyYooper

My husband and I have been struggling financially over the past few years..hardship not only hit us financially but emotionally. I'm not ready to go into details and I don't think this would be the place to talk about it..long story short, we lost our home. Since February of this year my husband has a new employer and we are doing well. We bought the acre right next to our house (NOT attached to the mortgage in anyway) & recently bought a 1991 30' Dutchman Camper. We are hoping to live in it this winter. I know they're supposed to be used for the summer months but we felt this would be the best for us to save up money. We have horses and really don't want to rent...We do have electric hookup and water is available from the camp across the road from us. They said we could use as much as we need. I'm not sure what we need to do to help keep the camper warmer? ANY tips would be appreciated!! Or is this even possible? We own property about 10 miles from here that we plan to put up a small house on come spring. We need to get a driveway put in first and then move the camper over there & live in it while we build.
The camper has pretty much everything we need..stove, fridge, oven, a/c, heater, toilet & shower....I guess the a/c is more of a luxury..not a necessity  but it came with it! Thanks for listening


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## HappyYooper




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## Bret

I hope we can follow your adventure this winter in the U.P.


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## Harry Chickpea

Your problem is that it is in Upper Michigan. If I had to do that on the cheap, I would be making a free standing frame tight to the camper, then a shell of a couple inches of blue foamboard covered with roofing tin, holes for door and windows, with those covered with clear plastic, and safe *so that they can't get covered by snow or ice* vent holes. Some safe provision for keeping the water lines and tanks above freezing will be needed as well. Heat tape maybe?

If you do straw bales as insulation, you will have rodents and other pests.

You'll either spend on insulation or on heat and repairs. Unless you have a wizard in your back pocket, the winter is going to cost you a couple thousand at least, one way or another.


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## belladulcinea

I agree with Harry, build a covering for it and insulate the underneath as much as possible. Enclosing it as much as possible will keep it warmer and cooler for you.


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## Ernie

Even just a little bit of heat usage in there can probably keep it above freezing, so long as you haven't parked it right out in the north wind.

If you want to keep it "room temperature" in there and a cozy 75 degrees all winter long, prepare to spend a fortune on propane or electricity.

If you want to just keep it above freezing then that probably won't be very hard to do. Invest in sweaters and long johns.


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## Bellyman

That rv is not made to camp in below zero weather. You can do some heroic stuff like mentioned above with insulation board. But even if you do, it's not gonna be cheap to heat. 

As much as you hate the idea, would renting a room somewhere not be cheaper, at least for a few months over the worst of winter? You can always winterize the trailer so you don't have to worry about water lines freezing.

I live in an rv fulltime. And even in central Mississippi in the winter where we stayed for a couple of winters, it was not uncommon to use several hundred dollars worth of propane over the course of a month in winter. And the lowest temperature I ever saw was 17 above zero.

Not saying it can't be done. Just saying that it's not gonna be easy, comfortable or cheap.


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## Cabin Fever

Along with the insulation the others have suggested, I would also recommend building a 3-wall "mud room" outside of the camper's front door (the fourth wall is the camper). Put a wood burning stove inside the mudroom and keep the camper's door open. With a fan or two, circulate the heat into the camper. 

I would drain all the water and sewer lines and keep them empty during the winter. Use a porti-pottie or composting toilet. Heat water on the woodstove.

We have friends who spent two years in a teepee in northern Minnesota so they could save enough money for a house. So, it can be done with a camper, too.


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## Terri in WV

I'm sorry for your troubles. If you can't insulate around the whole thing, at least get some kind of underpinning to keep air from going under. Also, blankets, quilts or insulated curtains for the windows and extra quilts for the bed. You might also consider an "Eden Pure type" heater. I've had to use them in the past and they do put out a surprising amount of heat and didn't raise the electric noticeably. One can be picked up for about $120 and might help to really cut down on the propane usage.

Best of luck!


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## tinknal

First, park it so that the side with the most windows has a sunny southern exposure. Bank with straw or bags of leaves. When the snow flies pile it up along the walls as far as you can.

Believe it or not, as long as you are not very old, very young, or ill heat is not a necessity. We have survived a Minnesota winter with no heat, and without terrible discomfort.


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## Calico Katie

Where will you keep your horses? Do you have a barn you could move the trailer into? Don't know if you'd have any exhaust issues with that idea but anything you could surround yourself with to cut the worst of the cold would help.


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## Molly Mckee

We had friends that lived in a camper on their farm after a house fire. They did put bales around the bottom, and let snow pile up on the bales. They were comfortable, this was about 40 miles west of Milwaukee, WI so cold and windy.


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## Jim-mi

If you know or can find somebody near by with a barn that is reasonably air tight, just parking the trailer in the barn out of the weather would make a big difference ....

If outside bite the bullet now and get 2 inch blueboard --foam-- insulation and put it totally around the trailer like a skirt.
Pay for the insulation or for MORE propane...................


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## bajiay

I know some people that live off the grid in a camper and built the "mudroom" addition with a wood stove in it. Put straw bales around the bottom. I went there in the dead of winter and helped deliver their baby, and it was actually very toasty in there.


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## majiksummer

We lived in our camper a couple winters in eastern Montana, with -50 degree winters, there are still lots of people in campers up here (oil field work). It's really not that bad. Take foam insulation and cut it to fit from the ground to just above the bottom edge of your trailer, then use plywood screwed around it to make the skirting. Put a heat lamp under there on your water lines and then heat tape all of the water/sewer lines that aren't under the skirting and cover the heat tape with pipe insulation wrap. It's very doable and if you can find a cheap source of wood/insulation it's not terribly expensive. We used the foam from crates that cheese is shipped to the factories in for most of the insulation.


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## HappyYooper

Thank you all for your help! Positive & negative! We need to be as informed as possible. It's a great idea about the mudroom & wood stove too. We do have a good supply of firewood. We have 3 good windbreaks with Balsam trees so that's a bit of a plus. Believe it or not our horses never had a barn for cover. There are a lot of Balsams in this area and they used them as cover. When we move to our other property they will have at least a lean-to.
I had to run for a round of hay yesterday and was talking to my suppliers. They know about our situation. We were discussing the insulating of under the camper. Seems back in the day horse manure was used to insulate. Boards would be put around the bottom and manure pile up along it. We have more than enough manure but not sure about using that idea. But it was interesting listening to them...they are 82 & 79. My concern about the straw bales is attracting mice also..have any of you tried this and had a problem with mice?
I'm scared as heck yet at the same time excited? Make any sense? We are moving the camper next door tomorrow...I will post updates on our Winter Adventure. Again, thank you all!


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## HappyYooper

Cabin Fever said:


> Along with the insulation the others have suggested, I would also recommend building a 3-wall "mud room" outside of the camper's front door (the fourth wall is the camper). Put a wood burning stove inside the mudroom and keep the camper's door open. With a fan or two, circulate the heat into the camper.
> 
> I would drain all the water and sewer lines and keep them empty during the winter. Use a porti-pottie or composting toilet. Heat water on the woodstove.
> 
> We have friends who spent two years in a teepee in northern Minnesota so they could save enough money for a house. So, it can be done with a camper, too.


Cabin Fever, the camper came with a composting toilet but we are also going to put in a "privy". 2 years in a teepee? Now that would be an interesting story! Thank you!


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## HappyYooper

Jim-mi said:


> If you know or can find somebody near by with a barn that is reasonably air tight, just parking the trailer in the barn out of the weather would make a big difference ....
> 
> If outside bite the bullet now and get 2 inch blueboard --foam-- insulation and put it totally around the trailer like a skirt.
> Pay for the insulation or for MORE propane...................


I think I'd rather pay for the insulation!


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## HappyYooper

tinknal said:


> First, park it so that the side with the most windows has a sunny southern exposure. Bank with straw or bags of leaves. When the snow flies pile it up along the walls as far as you can.
> 
> Believe it or not, as long as you are not very old, very young, or ill heat is not a necessity. We have survived a Minnesota winter with no heat, and without terrible discomfort.


Never thought of bagged leaves...we have many maple trees  Thank you!


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## HappyYooper

Bellyman said:


> That rv is not made to camp in below zero weather. You can do some heroic stuff like mentioned above with insulation board. But even if you do, it's not gonna be cheap to heat.
> 
> As much as you hate the idea, would renting a room somewhere not be cheaper, at least for a few months over the worst of winter? You can always winterize the trailer so you don't have to worry about water lines freezing.
> 
> I live in an rv fulltime. And even in central Mississippi in the winter where we stayed for a couple of winters, it was not uncommon to use several hundred dollars worth of propane over the course of a month in winter. And the lowest temperature I ever saw was 17 above zero.
> 
> Not saying it can't be done. Just saying that it's not gonna be easy, comfortable or cheap.


I have looked @ renting but the cost around here runs an easy $400.00 plus. We also have 2 dogs and a cat. Most places do not allow pets.


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## HappyYooper

Terri in WV said:


> I'm sorry for your troubles. If you can't insulate around the whole thing, at least get some kind of underpinning to keep air from going under. Also, blankets, quilts or insulated curtains for the windows and extra quilts for the bed. You might also consider an "Eden Pure type" heater. I've had to use them in the past and they do put out a surprising amount of heat and didn't raise the electric noticeably. One can be picked up for about $120 and might help to really cut down on the propane usage.
> 
> Best of luck!


Thank you Terri! I would like to make my own curtains for the camper..there isn't any in it now. Have you made insulated or quilt curtains?


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## Dixie Bee Acres

Years ago when we lived in a moble home, the skirting wasn't very tight, and not insulated at all. I used bagged leaves as insulation. I also bought a bunch of mouse poison, would put a little poison in the bag, fill with leaves, then more poison before tying the bag shut.
After the first heavy snow, I would shovel a lot of snow up against the bags and on top of them.


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## Jim-mi

Don't ask for details about drawing Every mouse in the county to the straw bales around the place...........
Never Ever Again...............

Bagged leaves sound good but they will get wet and compress......and the critters will chew holes in the bags and soon you will have a warm home for an exploding colony of Mice and more Mice.........


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## HappyYooper

Jim-mi said:


> Don't ask for details about drawing Every mouse in the county to the straw bales around the place...........
> Never Ever Again...............
> 
> Bagged leaves sound good but they will get wet and compress......and the critters will chew holes in the bags and soon you will have a warm home for an exploding colony of Mice and more Mice.........


Questioned answered :hysterical: "I" should know better!


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## amylou62

DH and I sold our home in Kansas, paid cash for a few acres and are going to live in our rv for a while and save money to build. Thank goodness we are in Texas though. Not nearly as cold here. Good luck.


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## 7thswan

I put foam board around our 5th wheel, and then straw bales bound with plastic twine,no problems. We had a propaine tank brought in-no charge if we filled it up from the company.


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## smallbore

I had an uncle who lived in a camper-trailer for two years. He was in the Lacrosse, WI area. He put a skirt around it. I'm not sure what he used, but I know it wasn't anything organic. He had access to campground bathroom facilities for showering and all so he only had his water hooked up in the warmer months. The problem he ran into was with the refrigerator. He had to rig up a heat source (light bulb) or it wouldn't work. A lot of the time he was out working and spent quite a bit of time away from home. When he was home he basically watched a little tv and went to bed. Oh, yeah, - he cut pieces of that blue insulation and duct taped them to the ceiling over the skylights. That cut down on condensation and icing.


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## tinknal

You could wrap the bales in 6 mil plastic and put poison inside. If you wait until late fall to put the bales down and pull them away first thing in the spring mice shouldn't be that bad a problem.


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## Molly Mckee

If you can find straw bales where the combine did a really good job, they will help a lot without attracting mice. The combine leaving oats or wheat in the straw will attract mice. People with old farm houses in WI used to use manure around the foundation, it does work.


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## Ernie

What do you care if it attracts mice? The straw bales aren't permanent. They could be RIDDLED with mice and so long as you've got a cat in your camper then the mice should stay out. The bales will go up when the first frost hits and come down when the clover blooms. 

I'll make a throwaway comment here which may not apply to you (or anyone else) so don't take offense at it ... but it's something I've learned so I want to share.

You can spend a lot of money trying to maintain your "comfort", or you can adjust your point of view and relearn what comfort is.


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## ovsfarm

Seems like you are facing two battles, keeping the cold out and keeping the heat in. The mudroom/vestibule area with a woodstove is a great idea, as long as you can get proper clearances or protection for the wooden walls to keep them from catching fire. You might even want to consider a blanket or other flexible barrier at the door of your mudroom to keep your heat from being sucked out when someone comes in.

Can you check with any contractors in your area to see if you can "recycle" their left over bits of pink insulation. At the very least, you could pack a bunch of little scraps of that into trash bags with a bit of mouse poison. Perhaps talk with any local hardware stores about damaged fiber or foam insulation for free or very cheap. The contractors might also be willing to call you if they are having to tear out any decent condition insulation for remodeling projects.

Heat rises, so be sure to insulate the top of your camper well also. Regarding the window quilts, check local thrift shops for heavy quilts. You can also sew several layers together to make up a good thickness. When we did them, many years ago, I bought a bunch of cheap wooden picture frames at yard sales and then used the staple gun to attach the quilting to them and hung them over the windows. If you are getting much air in through the window, you might also want to drill a small hole and use a screw to attach the frame at the bottom corners to keep the air from leaking out into your room. If you do this, be cautious about buildup of any fumes from cooking, crafts or other activities. You can accidentally make the place extremely air tight!

Good luck!


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## mpillow

a yurt with a woodstove?
http://www.mlive.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2009/06/mongolian_yurts_catching_on_in.html


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## Lisa in WA

Cabin Fever said:


> Along with the insulation the others have suggested, I would also recommend building a 3-wall "mud room" outside of the camper's front door (the fourth wall is the camper). Put a wood burning stove inside the mudroom and keep the camper's door open. With a fan or two, circulate the heat into the camper.
> 
> I would drain all the water and sewer lines and keep them empty during the winter. Use a porti-pottie or composting toilet. Heat water on the woodstove.
> 
> We have friends who spent two years in a teepee in northern Minnesota so they could save enough money for a house. So, it can be done with a camper, too.



we did exactly as CF suggested here when we did our first homesteading attempt in the mountains outside of Flagstaff. It did work perfectly.


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## terri9630

Ernie said:


> What do you care if it attracts mice? The straw bales aren't permanent. They could be RIDDLED with mice and so long as you've got a cat in your camper then the mice should stay out. The bales will go up when the first frost hits and come down when the clover blooms.
> 
> I'll make a throwaway comment here which may not apply to you (or anyone else) so don't take offense at it ... but it's something I've learned so I want to share.
> 
> You can spend a lot of money trying to maintain your "comfort", or you can adjust your point of view and relearn what comfort is.



Mice can get in where cats can't. We've had them chew up wiring in our camper and build nests.


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## Bellyman

One thing that might be of interest... 

These things are used by the rv crowd fairly widely. They do need some ventilation but are quite efficient when compared to a standard rv furnace. Might be worth checking out.

http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-furnaces/olympian-catalytic-heaters.htm

Sounds like Reflectix will be your friend this winter. You'll definitely want to make sure you have something helping you with the heat loss in the ceiling vents. Some people use that on at least some of the windows, too. Or, if you need to see out of them, there are those sheets of plastic you can get at most any Walmart or Lowes / Home Depot or Ace Hardware that you attach around the window frame and get the hair dryer out to shrink fit the plastic nice and neat. Or, I've even heard of people using bubble wrap to create some dead air space. Reflectix will block light. The plastic won't, though it might get frosted up, it'll still let light through. 

Best of luck! Sincerely hope you can get prepared before the cold weather sets in. You do have a little time to work on it, and that's a good thing.

Let us know how it's going. Heck, a few pictures along the way would be awesome as well! Who knows, might help out a fellow traveler one day.


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## Molly Mckee

You might see if you can find some RV magazines for ideas as well. We have friends that live in their motor home in Iowa all year. They don't have trouble staying warm and I know Tom reads several of the specialty magazines.


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## machinist

We are setting up an RV trailer in southern Indiana to use as a bugout/old age "assisted living" place. We just had a concrete slab poured and a septic system put in. The trailer is 8' x 28', the slab is 20' x 36'. Over the slab will be a pole building style "shelter house". This gets an insulated metal roof and framed walls up to 1/3 height. The upper 2/3 of the walls will be screened and covered with clear plastic in winter. One long wall has Southern exposure. 

We plan to put plastic inside and outside the shelter walls (for a dead air space) and use a wood stove to keep this "shelter house" above freezing. LP furnace in the trailer should do the job. The last owner had it in an unheated shop building and had no problem heating it in winter while he built a house.


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## Jim-mi

Lol . . Let me reinterpret what Ernie said in his above post re; comfort........
In other words; "Suck it up kiddo........and put on -another- sweat shirt and heavier long johns"...................lol 

And I'm guessing Ernie has not had the pleasure of a proliferation of mice . . .nasty.

Also to add to all those who suggest poison.........Just remember; when it warms up enough all those dead mice will start to putrefy-decay and then the BIG STINK sets in.......

6 mil plastic bags will slow down mice about three seconds while they chew through it. 
One year I put a fifty pound bag of bird feed sunflower seeds in a very large "Rubber Maid" container ----the squirrels / mice found a way into that little shed and chewed a large hole into the bottom corner of that rubber maid bucket................
When I discovered what happened-- that ALL the sunflower seeds were gone--eat'en you might imagine that my foul verbage would have made a sailor cringe.

Ever since I have been in a code RED alert----at war with mice and squirrels...Tree Rats......


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## fireweed farm

I lived in one for 5 full years after purchasing property, for saving up and then building a home.
I had electricity and water at the property line (buckets, etc) and was able to get showers at times elsewhere.
I HIGHLY recommend finding a cheap but SAFE woodstove. Something you can also cook/boil water on. A glass door will keep positive vibes up too, but you pay way more for that.
I used an electric oil filled heater which was alright but expensive as heck to run, as is a propane furnace.
And sawdust toilet all the way!


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## terri9630

Mice..... I hate 'em! We had them so bad one year I resorted to putting EVERYTHING in mason jars. EVERYTHING! Right now we can't use our dishwasher because one of the little buggars chewed through the drain hose.


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## SLFarmMI

I applaud your bravery in wanting to winter camp in the UP. I did it once (just once) with my parents in the LP and declared, "He** no, never again!". My dad was a heating and cooling guy so he had all kinds of things set up to keep us warm but we went through a lot of propane. It was years ago so the only thing he set up that I remember was heavy plastic on all the windows. He also built a little "foyer" outside the door with, I believe, two by fours and heavy plastic to keep the snow, wind and rain from blowing in the door when anyone went in and out. I would suggest getting some steel wool (Brillo pads work well and are fairly cheap) and stuffing it in any place where you think the mice will get in (and some places where you are sure they can't; the little buggers are evil geniuses at getting in places). They don't like chewing through metal. Good luck.


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## Fire-Man

HappyYooper said:


> I'm not sure what we need to do to help keep the camper warmer? The camper has pretty much everything we need..stove, fridge, oven, a/c, heater, toilet & shower.


Having lived in a camper for 6 years in our mild winter's----I can assure you that without alot of work/insulating----you are in for a COLD winter in your location. It can be done, but most campers have around 2" walls and thin floors---not much help in below freezing weather.
I underpinned my camper, put plastic on the inside over all windows. I bought several thick quilts, comforters from yardsales and hung these on the inside of all outside wall even over the 2 outside doors(had them overlapping/split at the door so I could get in'out) I cut pieces of rolled insulation and placed them on the floor inside all the cabinets, under the bed--Any where there was floor. I then added a good carpet/padding anywhere there was floor that I walked on. In my area, if it was going to be below freezing I would drain all the water lines. With your area you would have to blow all the water lines out or keep everything above Freezing which is hard to do.
You can heat water/ice to take a pan bath, or heat enough to partially fill your tub if you prefer. 
This Can Get into alot of Debate and I will not get into a debate over it----but by using a small "air tight" wood heater you can put it in most campers if done """""""""safely"""""""" with shields and insulated pipe. I had one in mine during the coldest part of winter. If not properly put in, you will loose the camper the first fire you build in the heater---IF you get out in time!!
Having lived in a camper---if I had to live in your area for a winter---I would winterize the camper and use it to store my things----Build me a Real good tight insulated storage building(that could be moved later)---atleast 2x6 walls, good insulation/insulation board and a good door----put a bed in it and a few things---a decent heater and sleep comfortable! You can use the stove in the camper during the day if you want. A porta-john in the storage building can save you during the nights! You can switch back to the camper during the warmer months and store your things in the storage building! Good Luck!


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## used2bcool13

Even in Southern California it gets cold in the rv during the winter. I will tell you what we did/do for the skylights/ceiling vents. DH took thick cushion foam and cut out squares and put them in the skylights. The foam squares fit very snuggly and are easy to remove. 

Where there is a will there is a way, Good luck


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## Win07_351

terri9630 said:


> Mice can get in where cats can't. We've had them chew up wiring in our camper and build nests.


Very true. Through the years, I've seen quite a bit of damage in houses, power equipment, and vehicles. Keep them away the best you can.


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## Ernie

Win07_351 said:


> Very true. Through the years, I've seen quite a bit of damage in houses, power equipment, and vehicles. Keep them away the best you can.


I guess that's one advantage of living in a non-standard structure. There's no place that a mouse can go that a cat can't.


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## HappyYooper

WOW! I really appreciate all of your input with this! It looks like we'll be staying int he camper until December 1st. The person we bought the acre from who also has a camp across the road offered to rent us the camp for the winter :nanner: We will still need to prepare the camper because I'm sure it'll get darn cold ...but then again, it's the U.P....I remember a ways back deer hunting in mid-November wearing only a t-shirt and jeans...so who knows but better to be prepared.
In a way I'm a bit disappointed we'll be staying at the camp..I wanted to see how we would make out...
We pulled the camper over and have it set up now...but come to find out the pump for the water has a crack in it. I think we can manage a couple months hauling water. 
The kids slept in the camper last night and it got pretty chilly..I think the temp here got down into the 50's & windy! So I can only imagine what it could be like through the winter!


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## Bellyman

HappyYooper said:


> ...We pulled the camper over and have it set up now...but come to find out the pump for the water has a crack in it. I think we can manage a couple months hauling water.
> ...


If you're talking about the rv's onboard water pump, they're not that expensive. $100 ought to buy you a new one and in most cases, give you some change back. The last one I bought was a leftover at an rv parts dealer that I gave him $40 for. I have it for a spare. 

It might also be possible to fix the old one if you can find the correct parts. That's a lot more hit and miss depending upon what you have and how old it is. I repaired my current pump years ago with parts that I had to modify to do the job. It worked. And it's still running years later. 

Good luck!


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## Ernie

HappyYooper said:


> WOW! I really appreciate all of your input with this! It looks like we'll be staying int he camper until December 1st. The person we bought the acre from who also has a camp across the road offered to rent us the camp for the winter :nanner: We will still need to prepare the camper because I'm sure it'll get darn cold ...but then again, it's the U.P....I remember a ways back deer hunting in mid-November wearing only a t-shirt and jeans...so who knows but better to be prepared.
> In a way I'm a bit disappointed we'll be staying at the camp..I wanted to see how we would make out...
> We pulled the camper over and have it set up now...but come to find out the pump for the water has a crack in it. I think we can manage a couple months hauling water.
> The kids slept in the camper last night and it got pretty chilly..I think the temp here got down into the 50's & windy! So I can only imagine what it could be like through the winter!


The pump on the camper? A Shurflo 12 volt pump for an RV runs about $75 off of Amazon. I've been on the verge of buying one myself for some stuff around here. It's pretty easily accessible to pull the old one and hook in a new one.


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## ronron

I searched living in a camper in the winter here are a few links there are lots of them

http://www.heartlandowners.org/show...amp-Dont-s-For-Living-In-Camper-During-Winter

http://www.city-data.com/forum/north-dakota/1043488-rv-camping-dickinson-during-winter.html

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yewsD-EkQr8[/ame]


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## Vosey

You need one more dog for a 3 dog night! Knew an old man in Maine who lived in his travel trailer with his 3 big dogs, kept him from freezing many a night. 

Ernie's right about adjusting expectations. Good longjohns (capilene or wool) and a wool hat indoors go a long ways. So do gloves with the finger tips cut off.


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## Harry Chickpea

You'll be much happier in the camp. Just think of it as a camping vacation!


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## HappyYooper

Vosey said:


> You need one more dog for a 3 dog night! Knew an old man in Maine who lived in his travel trailer with his 3 big dogs, kept him from freezing many a night.
> 
> Ernie's right about adjusting expectations. Good longjohns (capilene or wool) and a wool hat indoors go a long ways. So do gloves with the finger tips cut off.


OMG :sing:


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## HappyYooper

Harry Chickpea said:


> You'll be much happier in the camp. Just think of it as a camping vacation!


I know for my husband it will be much better...he drives log truck and even in the winter he gets pretty grungy.


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## HappyYooper

Ernie said:


> The pump on the camper? A Shurflo 12 volt pump for an RV runs about $75 off of Amazon. I've been on the verge of buying one myself for some stuff around here. It's pretty easily accessible to pull the old one and hook in a new one.


I'll be taking the pump out today. Hubby said to call Tractor Supply to see if they carry them too...I was wondering about Amazon. Seems they carry just about everything. Thanks!


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## 7thswan

I was just comeing here to post about another suggestion. Glad to hear You will be staying in camp,tho. I was going to suggest a Hoophouse from Farmteck. Park the camper inside. And you will have a hoophouse for a longer growning season(needed in Mich.esp. UPnorth. Also ,we put bales of straw around the foundation of this 100+ yr old house each Fall. Mice don't live in them because they get wet(then freeze), not a welcome home for mice. But they still insulate and block wind.Ya, you will still need to insulate -we stayed in our old Airstream during hunting season in November-bout froze because we simply had no idea how cold it could be(yes even our Rottie was cold in the bed with us).


----------



## Ernie

HappyYooper said:


> I'll be taking the pump out today. Hubby said to call Tractor Supply to see if they carry them too...I was wondering about Amazon. Seems they carry just about everything. Thanks!


Amazon is sort of my go-to source now for everything. With their Prime I don't pay shipping and the goods are delivered cheaper than big-box prices and come right to my door. Sanding belts, grinder wheels, glue ... whatever the heck I need. 

I called Shurflo and got the model number of the pump I need and then searched it on Amazon and found it for the right price. Couldn't be simpler.


----------



## BigM

We lived in a camper for about a year. I LOVED it! I will say the hardest part for me was keeping my feet warm. (I have all kinds of metal in there so once they get cold... ) I kept heating pads in the spots I stood most and it really helped. I can also tell you that if you are running a hose for water that freezing will be an issue. I'm sorry it's been hard for you and yours but I really hope you enjoy your new adventure as much as I did!


----------



## HappyYooper

7thswan said:


> I was just comeing here to post about another suggestion. Glad to hear You will be staying in camp,tho. I was going to suggest a Hoophouse from Farmteck. Park the camper inside. And you will have a hoophouse for a longer growning season(needed in Mich.esp. UPnorth. Also ,we put bales of straw around the foundation of this 100+ yr old house each Fall. Mice don't live in them because they get wet(then freeze), not a welcome home for mice. But they still insulate and block wind.Ya, you will still need to insulate -we stayed in our old Airstream during hunting season in November-bout froze because we simply had no idea how cold it could be(yes even our Rottie was cold in the bed with us).


7thswan, the hoop house idea is a good one! Next spring after we get the driveway put in where we plan to build we'll be pulling the camper there to stay in. We're not sure how far we will get & we may end up having to stay in the camper the whole winter. But hopefully we'll at least have the shell up and insulated. I would love a hoop house for the garden too! I will be able to have a LARGE garden over there eventually :bouncy:


----------



## HappyYooper

BigM said:


> We lived in a camper for about a year. I LOVED it! I will say the hardest part for me was keeping my feet warm. (I have all kinds of metal in there so once they get cold... ) I kept heating pads in the spots I stood most and it really helped. I can also tell you that if you are running a hose for water that freezing will be an issue. I'm sorry it's been hard for you and yours but I really hope you enjoy your new adventure as much as I did!


BigM, I can only imagine how cold your feet get! If you don't mind me asking what happened?? We'll be running a hose from camp to the camper..that is IF we get a new pump. I have 3 sections of hose that I can disconnect and hang over tree branches to drain. 
I'm always up for a new adventure and this one is going to be a doozy! But, hubby and I are strong, have been down before always landing back on our feet... most important love, support & respect one another! Thank you..


----------



## HappyYooper

Ernie said:


> Amazon is sort of my go-to source now for everything. With their Prime I don't pay shipping and the goods are delivered cheaper than big-box prices and come right to my door. Sanding belts, grinder wheels, glue ... whatever the heck I need.
> 
> I called Shurflo and got the model number of the pump I need and then searched it on Amazon and found it for the right price. Couldn't be simpler.


Ernie, when I get the pump out today, I'll WILL check Amazon! Thank you!


----------



## Allen W

HappyYooper said:


> I had to run for a round of hay yesterday and was talking to my suppliers. They know about our situation. We were discussing the insulating of under the camper. Seems back in the day horse manure was used to insulate. Boards would be put around the bottom and manure pile up along it. We have more than enough manure but not sure about using that idea. But it was interesting listening to them...they are 82 & 79.


The horse manure wasn't for insulation it was for heat. Horse manure will heat or begin composting by itself. Have you ever seen a pile of horse manure steaming in the winter time?


----------



## BKB HOMESTEAD

We are living in our "all season" 5th wheel now in central IN while we remodel our old house. Our plan is to get the house "livable" by the end of November so we can move back in, so we don't have to deal with the heat and water freezing issues all winter. There are many websites out there with valuable information about living in an rv full time if you just google "full time rv living" or something similar. Something I haven't seen mentioned is condensation and fresh air flow. Even in the summer months we have had condensation in the windows, which will turn to mold eventually if it doesn't dry each day I would think. Everyone is giving really good advice- good luck with your adventure! Much money to be saved by just doing with what you have, and it seems answers come somehow! (I credit it to answered prayers!) We are doing all our work ourselves and no borrowed money so some days it feels desperate but you will be ok, just keep the faith and stand together!


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## HappyYooper

Allen W said:


> The horse manure wasn't for insulation it was for heat. Horse manure will heat or begin composting by itself. Have you ever seen a pile of horse manure steaming in the winter time?


We have 2 horses so I sure have


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## Jerngen

Cabin Fever said:


> Along with the insulation the others have suggested, I would also recommend building a 3-wall "mud room" outside of the camper's front door (the fourth wall is the camper). Put a wood burning stove inside the mudroom and keep the camper's door open. With a fan or two, circulate the heat into the camper.
> 
> I would drain all the water and sewer lines and keep them empty during the winter. Use a porti-pottie or composting toilet. Heat water on the woodstove.
> 
> We have friends who spent two years in a teepee in northern Minnesota so they could save enough money for a house. So, it can be done with a camper, too.


I had to double check what state he said to make sure we weren't talking about the same folks!  
My wife's Aunt and Uncle stayed in a teepee in northern Montana (near Glacier National Park) for a couple years while they saved money and then built their house. 

Somewhere on the internet is a homesteading article about a couple who started off in a camper their first winter. 
They built a finished 3 sided room to go up against their camper as CF said. Installed a woodstove and used the room as their primary living room that winter with all the windows on that side of the camper open to the add-on. 

Then when they built their house, they had the 3 sided room jacked up, loaded onto a trailer, drove it over to the house, and permanently attached it to the house they built.


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## ronron

I would think putting the trailer up on ramps and insulating and insulating some more would help also what about digging down into he ground and dropping the trailer down to ground level then using the dirt to berm around the trailer. Also look around for another cheep or free travel trailer gut it add a wood stove and use it for a living room. somehow connect them for a free extra room. Just trying to be cheap lumber costs money or a shipping container you can always repurpose it later...If your going to put a hoop house over your trailer think about using bubble wrap I had a friend use this for a green house it insulated much better than regular plastic... You can probably get big rolls from amazon.


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## poorboy

Strawbale...schmabale...leafs..smeefs patooey Pilgrim!

Put ya some skirting around the trailer and hit fer the nearest sawmill and git acoupla..three big loads ah green sawdust and use this to bank up around yer trailer.cheap tin'll work.Then go with the woodstove idea, but be careful 'cause you'll end up runnin' 'round in yer undies in zero weather..Rake the sawdust away next summer..works great down zero and below.. did this to an old house trailer that almost broke me the previous winter a heating it..:goodjob:


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## terri9630

They make heated water hoses. We used one last winter. It has a plug on the 'female' end of the hose and we wrapped it with pipe insulation. They are kind of expensive but it didn't freeze. We paid $110 for a 75ft hose.


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## backwoods

Never lived in a camper, but some people who bought a house we had for sale moved one onto the property here in TN in February when it was 17 degrees. They had propane in it and still complained they were freezing to death in it. They showed up on our doorstep shivering and practically begged to come in so they could thaw out. They were miserable! I would really strongly consider the suggestions above about building on a 3 sided mud room with a wood stove. The cost of that would probably be less than what you'll spend trying to heat it with propane, and still be cold and miserable. You could "scrounge" most of the materials since it's only temporary and doesn't have to be anything fancy. 
As for the window coverings, I knew a woman who bought up every cheap vinyl table cloth w/flannel backing, that she could find in semi coordinating colors, and sandwiched them with a layer of quilt batting in the middle and hung over windows and doors of the old drafty house they rented. It looked quite cheerful and kept them much warmer. 

Well, just got to the part about you staying in the camp. Sounds like a much better idea, especially with kiddos. Around here, people insulate and finish "yard barns" and live in them year round while building their houses. The ones that have a loft are great for the kids to sleep in. One friend actually bought 3 yard barns used, and attached them together and lived there for years with 5 children very comfortably. Whatever you do, I wish your family much luck!


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## HappyYooper

Thanks everyone for your input! You've all be so helpful:happy: Even though we will be moving into camp the 1st of December, I will be preparing for the worst cold because it's "US", LOL. What will happen when I do this is the weather will be warm until we move :smack That's usually the way things work for us!
We're not going to add on a 3 sided room with the wood stove this year...might be something we'll do next year if we need to stay in it over the whole winter.
What do you think about using plastic film insulation on the inside & outside of the windows or would this create condensation? If this isn't a good idea which do you think would be the better place to put the film...inside or outside of the window?
I'll probably go with straw bales to put around the outside...I can always use the straw next year for mulch or plants.
I'm heading into town Friday so I will hit our Goodwill & St. Vincent De Paul stores for blankets/quilts for curtains and extra rugs.
The door needs insulation around it and it probably would be a good idea to make a covering for that also.
We have 3 skylights that need to be filled with insulation...we have some left over so that's covered. Should I put plastic over this also as you would when one insulates walls?
We'll probably haul water for the couple months we'll be in there and buy a new pump next year or as soon as when we can afford it without hitting us too hard. The make of the pump is a Flojet...prices run from $90.00-$175.00 from what I could find on the internet. Would I have to use the same brand that came with the camper?


----------



## Cabin Fever

The plastic on the windows will help create a dead air space which will provide some insulation. Be prepared for condensation on the windows during real cold days as well as condensation of the interior camper walls and ceiling.

With only 2" walls, I'm betting your furnance will be running constantly from Dec. thru March and the inside temp will still be somewhat uncomfortable. I would have a spare furnace fan on-hand and rent a large propane tank. 

And, as I suggested before, I would drain all the plumbing prior to winter. Consequently, whether your water pump works or not is not a big deal.

What is the BTU rating of the campers furnace?


----------



## HappyYooper

Cabin Fever said:


> The plastic on the windows will help create a dead air space which will provide some insulation. Be prepared for condensation on the windows during real cold days as well as condensation of the interior camper walls and ceiling.
> 
> With only 2" walls, I'm betting your furnance will be running constantly from Dec. thru March and the inside temp will still be somewhat uncomfortable. I would have a spare furnace fan on-hand and rent a large propane tank.
> 
> And, as I suggested before, I would drain all the plumbing prior to winter. Consequently, whether your water pump works or not is not a big deal.
> 
> What is the BTU rating of the campers furnace?


Thank you Cabin Fever for the answer to my question about the windows 
We'll be moving out of the camper on Dec. 1st and moving into the camp across the road from us until we get our driveway build @ the property so we can pull the camper over there as stay while we build. The water lines and tank are drained now and will not be used.
I'll get back to you in a bit with the btu rating. I need to read through the manuals.


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## Cabin Fever

Okay, I missed the part where you told us that you'll be moving out of the camper on Dec. 1. - that is much more dooable!.


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## HappyYooper

Cabin Fever said:


> Okay, I missed the part where you told us that you'll be moving out of the camper on Dec. 1. - that is much more dooable!.


Yup! We are so thankful to have such caring neighbors.. they only come up once a year during deer season.


----------



## cast iron

Ahh yes, I remember the days...

Having so much condensation that it's running down the windows in small rivers. 

The air being filled with so much moisture that everything felt wet, the sleeping bag, pillow, seat cushions, everything.

Having to turn the fan on in the bathroom not because of my own stink but because of the two mice who after eating the poison crawled behind the shower enclosure and died. That stink does eventually go away but it takes several months.

Laying in the damp sleeping bag with long-johns, gloves and hat on listening to the mice scurrying around under the bed and in some cases up inside the wall cavity. You can have problems with ant infestations in RV's as well, and oddly, an army of ants are much louder when traveling inside a wall cavity then the mice.

Laying in the damp sleeping bag listening to the furnance cycle on and off, mostly ON, and wondering if the second tank of propane will last till the morning because I had not had a chance to take the 1st tank (empty) to town to get it filled yet.

Anyway, I have read all the replies and there is lots of good info here. A couple of additional thoughts.

- Frequently the most common entry point for mice is via the power cord where it passes into the compartment of the RV. Typically there is a plastic door on the compartment that the cord passes through and the mice just squeeze in through there. I put some steel wool in there around the cord where it passes through the door.

- In many RV's there are small slots in the window frames at the bottom of the window. These are put there to drain condensation coming off the window to the exterior of the RV but they become clogged over time. Make sure those slots are clean so there is some chance of evacuating the water off the window to the outside. And it's not unusual for the windows to be poorly installed such that the bottom part of the frame is actually sloping toward the inside of the RV, which of course means those slots don't have a chance to work and the water ends up running down the interior wall.

- The most effective method I've seen in dealing with the condensation is using one of the small dehumidifiers to remove moisture from the air. These dehumidifiers of course need to have a drain if you want them to run unattended. Most people put them in the bathtub and let it drain out that way. I've seen a couple people who have put the machine in the corner on the counter by the kitchen sink and have it drain into the sink.

- Speaking of drains. If you choose to use the plumbing in the RV then you may have to insulate or heat the gray water drain hose to get it to drain properly. You can buy an adapter cap that goes on your black water drain outlet and allows you to hook a garden hose to it. This allows you to leave your gray water valve open for continuous drainage of the shower and sinks. If that hose does not have a continuous slope (and often even if it does) the pockets of water will freeze up in the hose and block drainage.

- The first thing I would do if you have not already is to check the quality and load carrying capacity of the electrical service to the site. Just having electrical service to the site doesn't mean it will have enough capacity to run the various things in the trailer. Just testing it by turning on a light or two may not be sufficient. There can be a surprising electrical load on an RV when a family is living in it. The furnace blower, additional heaters, electrical gadgets like laptop and cellphone chargers, radios, computers, tv's etc.

- Make sure the stove top vent fan works properly. This is an older RV so it should have the type of fan that actually vents the smoke to the outside which is good, unlike many newer RV's that route the smoke through a simplistic filter and then returns the smoky air to the interior of the RV. Without a good working stove top fan you will quickly find yourself in a disgusting maze of damp smokey air, but of course you don't want to open the windows or door because it lets the heat out. Check the exterior flap on this vent fan to make sure it closes when the fan is not on as that hole in the wall is of course a cold air leak point.

While you can make your own insulation solution for the roof vents, I never found a home-made solution that would hold up over time. Either it would fall out or the tape would come loose and be hanging down etc. The only thing I found that sort of worked was a piece of thick dense foam but it to would end up falling out or I had to cut it so large to get it stuffed up in the hole that it was bowed down in the middle and I ended up hitting my head on it. I finally gave up and purchased these for the roof vents. They stay in place and are flush with the ceiling. Picked them up when I happened by a camping world while on a long road trip. Amazon may have them as well.

http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/vent-cushion/26552


----------



## Bellyman

HappyYooper said:


> ...We'll probably haul water for the couple months we'll be in there and buy a new pump next year or as soon as when we can afford it without hitting us too hard. The make of the pump is a Flojet...prices run from $90.00-$175.00 from what I could find on the internet. Would I have to use the same brand that came with the camper?


No, you don't have to replace with exactly the same or that kind of water pump that came out. Flojet is generally a pretty good pump.

You'll find that some have higher flow than others with a range of somewhere between about 1.9 gal/min to maybe 6 gal/min. You'll also find a range of somewhere between around 25psi and about 60psi. And to top that off, you'll find some that are variable speed pumps and others that are a single speed (on or off).

The high flow, high pressure variable speed pumps do the best at simulating a nice flow like you'd have in someone's home, sometimes better than a lot of homes I've been in. But there's a trade-off with that, they usually blow through a lot more water, which might be important if you're trying to conserve water out of a 50 gal fresh water tank. 

(A small pressure tank from Lowes or Home Depot placed in the water line after the water pump output will replace a need for a variable speed pump. They're like $30 or so.)

If you want, you could post the model number of the pump you have and it would give us an idea of what you had to begin with. But really, it's no big deal putting any of the typical rv pumps back in there. 

Have you ever used the one that's there? If so, did you like the way it worked? Enough pressure? Not enough pressure? Decent flow? If not, no big deal. Just wondering if we might be able to make suggestions just a tad more intelligently. No rocket science involved. 

Glad things are working out for a cabin. Might be for the best.


----------



## HappyYooper

Wayne02 said:


> Ahh yes, I remember the days...
> 
> Having so much condensation that it's running down the windows in small rivers.
> 
> The air being filled with so much moisture that everything felt wet, the sleeping bag, pillow, seat cushions, everything.
> 
> Having to turn the fan on in the bathroom not because of my own stink but because of the two mice who after eating the poison crawled behind the shower enclosure and died. That stink does eventually go away but it takes several months.
> 
> Laying in the damp sleeping bag with long-johns, gloves and hat on listening to the mice scurrying around under the bed and in some cases up inside the wall cavity. You can have problems with ant infestations in RV's as well, and oddly, an army of ants are much louder when traveling inside a wall cavity then the mice.
> 
> Laying in the damp sleeping bag listening to the furnance cycle on and off, mostly ON, and wondering if the second tank of propane will last till the morning because I had not had a chance to take the 1st tank (empty) to town to get it filled yet.
> 
> Anyway, I have read all the replies and there is lots of good info here. A couple of additional thoughts.
> 
> - Frequently the most common entry point for mice is via the power cord where it passes into the compartment of the RV. Typically there is a plastic door on the compartment that the cord passes through and the mice just squeeze in through there. I put some steel wool in there around the cord where it passes through the door.
> 
> - In many RV's there are small slots in the window frames at the bottom of the window. These are put there to drain condensation coming off the window to the exterior of the RV but they become clogged over time. Make sure those slots are clean so there is some chance of evacuating the water off the window to the outside. And it's not unusual for the windows to be poorly installed such that the bottom part of the frame is actually sloping toward the inside of the RV, which of course means those slots don't have a chance to work and the water ends up running down the interior wall.
> 
> - The most effective method I've seen in dealing with the condensation is using one of the small dehumidifiers to remove moisture from the air. These dehumidifiers of course need to have a drain if you want them to run unattended. Most people put them in the bathtub and let it drain out that way. I've seen a couple people who have put the machine in the corner on the counter by the kitchen sink and have it drain into the sink.
> 
> - Speaking of drains. If you choose to use the plumbing in the RV then you may have to insulate or heat the gray water drain hose to get it to drain properly. You can buy an adapter cap that goes on your black water drain outlet and allows you to hook a garden hose to it. This allows you to leave your gray water valve open for continuous drainage of the shower and sinks. If that hose does not have a continuous slope (and often even if it does) the pockets of water will freeze up in the hose and block drainage.
> 
> - The first thing I would do if you have not already is to check the quality and load carrying capacity of the electrical service to the site. Just having electrical service to the site doesn't mean it will have enough capacity to run the various things in the trailer. Just testing it by turning on a light or two may not be sufficient. There can be a surprising electrical load on an RV when a family is living in it. The furnace blower, additional heaters, electrical gadgets like laptop and cellphone chargers, radios, computers, tv's etc.
> 
> - Make sure the stove top vent fan works properly. This is an older RV so it should have the type of fan that actually vents the smoke to the outside which is good, unlike many newer RV's that route the smoke through a simplistic filter and then returns the smoky air to the interior of the RV. Without a good working stove top fan you will quickly find yourself in a disgusting maze of damp smokey air, but of course you don't want to open the windows or door because it lets the heat out. Check the exterior flap on this vent fan to make sure it closes when the fan is not on as that hole in the wall is of course a cold air leak point.
> 
> While you can make your own insulation solution for the roof vents, I never found a home-made solution that would hold up over time. Either it would fall out or the tape would come loose and be hanging down etc. The only thing I found that sort of worked was a piece of thick dense foam but it to would end up falling out or I had to cut it so large to get it stuffed up in the hole that it was bowed down in the middle and I ended up hitting my head on it. I finally gave up and purchased these for the roof vents. They stay in place and are flush with the ceiling. Picked them up when I happened by a camping world while on a long road trip. Amazon may have them as well.
> 
> http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/vent-cushion/26552


Oh Lordy you paint a very bleak picture of what we have in store for us! And I do appreciate it! Especially about the dampness! I will look for a small dehumidifier. As far as everything else you mentioned, it's all good. I will be giving up the internet & t.v. for who knows how long because we want to save as much money as we can over the winter.
I have to admit, I did let out a chuckle when you spoke of hitting your head on the foam...I can the exact same thing happening to my hubby! Thank you for the vent cushion link
I am REALLY happy we will only be in the camper until the 1st of December:happy2:


----------



## HappyYooper

Bellyman said:


> No, you don't have to replace with exactly the same or that kind of water pump that came out. Flojet is generally a pretty good pump.
> 
> You'll find that some have higher flow than others with a range of somewhere between about 1.9 gal/min to maybe 6 gal/min. You'll also find a range of somewhere between around 25psi and about 60psi. And to top that off, you'll find some that are variable speed pumps and others that are a single speed (on or off).
> 
> The high flow, high pressure variable speed pumps do the best at simulating a nice flow like you'd have in someone's home, sometimes better than a lot of homes I've been in. But there's a trade-off with that, they usually blow through a lot more water, which might be important if you're trying to conserve water out of a 50 gal fresh water tank.
> 
> (A small pressure tank from Lowes or Home Depot placed in the water line after the water pump output will replace a need for a variable speed pump. They're like $30 or so.)
> 
> If you want, you could post the model number of the pump you have and it would give us an idea of what you had to begin with. But really, it's no big deal putting any of the typical rv pumps back in there.
> 
> Have you ever used the one that's there? If so, did you like the way it worked? Enough pressure? Not enough pressure? Decent flow? If not, no big deal. Just wondering if we might be able to make suggestions just a tad more intelligently. No rocket science involved.
> 
> Glad things are working out for a cabin. Might be for the best.


The pump isn't working at all. The model number is 4306-500...but we're not too concerned about replacing it this year...
We just bought the camper a couple of weeks ago from a friend of mine. It sat for 3 years...
I too am glad about the cabin, thank you!


----------



## fordy

..................They make electric blankets for holding tanks but your electric bill would be quite high I'm afraid ! The only way to keep water hose from freezing is to simply let it 'Trickle' , slowly all winter long ! This method works in Tx , but maybe TOO Cold in Mich. My guess IS , most of your plumbing in that trailer is exposed . It will work very well next summer , but NOT during winter in Much. You need to find another way to survive the winter , I hope your burdens lighten and things get better for your family ! , fordy


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## Bellyman

Something like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flojet-Quie...Parts_Accessories&hash=item5d42ea5fb2&vxp=mtr

... is what I'm guessing you have in your rv. Pretty similar stats from what I can tell if not the identical pump.

One that I might consider if I had to buy one today might be:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RV-Marine12...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a24c602fd&vxp=mtr

... one of these. It's rated a little lower at 2.9gpm instead of 3.2gpm like your current one but also has a pressure around 50psi as opposed to around 35psi like your current one. 

I've also heard a few decent reports from people who bought one of these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-SHURflo...Parts_Accessories&hash=item43bedb14a2&vxp=mtr

Or if you want the cream of the crop, check out the Aquajet ES here:

http://www.rvwaterfilterstore.com/Pumps.htm

(Oh, and if you get to lusting after the Aquajet RV, which will pump quite a lot of water, be aware that the cutoff switch on that thing can be up close to 80psi, at least it is on one of those I happen to have. It was too much pressure for me to feel comfortable with it in my rv so I now have it in storage with it in mind if I should happen to need a good 12 volt water pump on a homestead someday. It's a good pump, just not a good application for most rvs.)

For what it's worth, that last company can get you some really good quality rv water hoses if you want them, way, way, way better than anything you're gonna find at Wallyworld or Camping World. 

So, you do have options, the above mentioning just a few.


----------



## HappyYooper

HappyYooper said:


> My husband and I have been struggling financially over the past few years..hardship not only hit us financially but emotionally. I'm not ready to go into details and I don't think this would be the place to talk about it..long story short, we lost our home. Since February of this year my husband has a new employer and we are doing well. We bought the acre right next to our house (NOT attached to the mortgage in anyway) & recently bought a 1991 30' Dutchman Camper. We are hoping to live in it this winter. I know they're supposed to be used for the summer months but we felt this would be the best for us to save up money. We have horses and really don't want to rent...We do have electric hookup and water is available from the camp across the road from us. They said we could use as much as we need. I'm not sure what we need to do to help keep the camper warmer? ANY tips would be appreciated!! Or is this even possible? We own property about 10 miles from here that we plan to put up a small house on come spring. We need to get a driveway put in first and then move the camper over there & live in it while we build.
> The camper has pretty much everything we need..stove, fridge, oven, a/c, heater, toilet & shower....I guess the a/c is more of a luxury..not a necessity  but it came with it! Thanks for listening


I'm not sure if I did change the header but we have been able to secure a cabin to rent right across the road from us! Our move in date is the 1st of December~! I'm sure we can tough it out for a couple of months in the camper!


----------



## DarleneJ

Make sure you have a heater on your water line. We had to put a lightbulb or two under our 5er to keep the lines warm enough to flow. Insulate under the floor with sheets of insulation or you will lose tons of heat out the floor and always be cold. Box in the area under your trailer to keep the wind from blowing through. You will go through tons of propane and huge amounts of electricity if you use electric heaters. Make sure you have some large propane tanks (or a really big one and a place that delivers). It will be a huge expense.

Forget what it looks like and insulate all around and above your trailer. It will pay for itself the first winter in fuel savings. Believe it or not, it won't be cheaper than living in an apartment through the winter.

I wish you all the best.

Edited to add: Also, if you use electric heaters and they run a lot, DO NOT put them directly on the floor. I had an experience where the heater was causing the formaldehyde in the floor to vaporize. I had nasty flu-like symptoms, headaches, muscle aches, cramps, etc. until we figured out what was going on. We moved the heater and raised it up on some bricks so it wasn't pushing out heat right onto the floor. That seemed to work.


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## hammer37

I'm a home builder in GA. I haven't lived in an rv but a friend of mine has. Our winters are nowhere near as long or cold but the wood heater is a good idea. I see a small deck for a floor. Three walls and the fourth is the camper. Insulate it well and the stove will probably put out enough heat to negate the lack of insulation in the rv. Plan the addition well enough and you can move it in one piece to your other property fairly easy with a truck and trailer. You can get wood stoves that only get hot at the front, the back and sides can be placed closer to walls. Make sure to pay attention to dimensions for distances away from walls and furniture.


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## HappyYooper

If by next winter we aren't able to move into our new home (right now we're looking at garage packages) we will be putting up this type of room for the wood stove..
I picked up insulation yesterday for the door but I ran short on time so I didn't make it to Home Depot for the window insulation...WW didn't have anything :grumble: as usual. I filled up the 2-30# propane tanks and got a price for 100# tanks...$70.00. I'm sure we'll use the 100#'ers 
Today we'll be hooking up the tanks and get the furnace going..probably start hauling some stuff from here into the camper...electric is all hooked up too.
Sure do appreciate everyone's input here!


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## DarleneJ

Oh, I forgot. I put up full length heavy weight curtains in front of the doors. Mostly, they were open, except when it was very cold. They really helped hold the heat in and keep a lot of it from escaping when we used the doors. They were wonderful to help darken things up for sleeping in the mornings we didn't have to be up so early.


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## tom_the_chemist

Where are you in the UP? How much snow do you expect? Have you considered the weight from the snow on the roof of the camper?


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## HappyYooper

We're having trouble lighting the pilot for the heater....but hubby had a long day hauling we didn't spend much time working on it. He said it can take a long time for the air to get out of the line so Wednesday we'll give it another go. We need prayers that the furnace will work!! We bought the camper from a friend of mine and we were told that everything worked....not a good feeling to have when the pump didn't work...
Anyway..
The door curtain will be made for sure! This week I will hit the thrift stores for blankets/quilts/material...something good and warm & get them started. I'm looking forward to doing this.
We live between Iron Mountain & Marquette Michigan so we get a fair amount of snow so...
As far as keeping the snow off of the roof, I'll be in charge of that with my muscles. Every snow I will sweep it off...invest in a push broom.
We would like to built a roof over the camper but our funds are getting low..we need to keep what we have for the storage shed when it gets delivered. Any "cheap" idea's with the snow/roof problem?
DH saw my list of to do's and he said we was not in favor of prepping the camper..seeing we'll only be in it 2 months...but I told him I was asking you all for info on this and told him what you all said...he told me to do what needed to be done..whew....:thumb:


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## Jim-mi

. . ."Looking at garage packages" . . .
Think about getting a garage door big enough that you could back that camper into the garage......
The way things are in this world, you can count on "next year" not being very friendly (to any of us).
But the point is getting that camper in out of the weather will make a huge difference and allow you to live in it (more comfortably) for a couple years.....


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## Bellyman

There are a few things you need to take into consideration, though, if you decide to park the rv in an enclosed space.

First, the rv furnace running on gas will be spewing out gasses to the outside of the rv that will need to be exhausted from the building. CO isn't something you want to build up and be breathing in. 

Second, if you are going to use the rv's waste water or black water systems, they also have vents that need to be accounted for. There are some nasty gasses that come forth from those. In open air, it's not an issue. Enclosed, it's not a good thing. 

Third, if you use the water heater on gas, you'll have the same need for ventilation that you have with the furnace.

Fourth, the refrigerator can run on gas, too, and will have need for ventilation as well. It's not as dramatic as the furnace or water heater but is still there.

Fifth, if you use the stove, you'll need a way to ventilate for that, too. Not only are you burning gas, but you'll have all kinds of smells that will accumulate in a not so good way.

Not saying you can't do an inside thing with an rv. You just have to think about what you're doing and make sure you're not putting yourself or your property in jeopardy.

If you really are thinking of putting up some kind of garage, you could also consider the idea of building living quarters into it, temporarily or permanently. My parents build a garage first, and lived in that while they built their house. Not a bad idea at all. Doesn't have to be overly complicated, either.


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## Jim-mi

Unless you spend a lot extra, most "garage" packages will Not be that air tight.......

CO detectors are your friend here.


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## oneraddad

I did 3 winters in the Sierra in a trailer while building a house.

Skirt the bottom, cut foam insulation to fit in the windows and don't use to propane heater the trailer came with. Get yourself a radiant oil heater since you have electricity.


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## HappyYooper

oneraddad, what size is your camper and what type of heater are you using? I'm really trying my best to find out how to keep warm in the camper and have been getting a lot of good advise...why do you suggest not to use the heater that came with the camper?


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## oneraddad

HappyYooper said:


> oneraddad, what size is your camper and what type of heater are you using? I'm really trying my best to find out how to keep warm in the camper and have been getting a lot of good advise...why do you suggest not to use the heater that came with the camper?


Mine was 27' and I lived alone. Electric heat is expensive but is was much cheaper than propane and it's a constant heat. It just kept me warmer. Besides if it was really cold I could close the bathroom door and only heat half the place.


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## HappyYooper

oneraddad said:


> Mine was 27' and I lived alone. Electric heat is expensive but is was much cheaper than propane and it's a constant heat. It just kept me warmer. Besides if it was really cold I could close the bathroom door and only heat half the place.


Did you have any problems with condensation build up in your camper? We won't be spending the whole winter in the camper this year (we were offered to rent the camp across the road from us starting December 2st) but next winter is still up in the air. It all depends on how far we get on our building.
Thank you for your input on this! How many watts was your heater?


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## Jim-mi

I really would question electric "heat" is cheaper than propane............
I see Edan-Pure electric heaters often on Craigs list.
Many folks have bought those 1500 watt units and really like them.......

.........Until they get their electric bill...............

I use a 750 watt E-P as part of a 'dump load' for a wind turbine.......
works great------but Ma Nature is supplying the energy to run it....


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## oneraddad

HappyYooper said:


> Did you have any problems with condensation build up in your camper? We won't be spending the whole winter in the camper this year (we were offered to rent the camp across the road from us starting December 2st) but next winter is still up in the air. It all depends on how far we get on our building.
> Thank you for your input on this! How many watts was your heater?



Condensation ? Yep, it was like a lake


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## HappyYooper

I think we have been blessed to have such wonderful "weekenders" to offer their camp to us to rent! I don't think I would like to be swimming in condensation:shocked:.....thank you!


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## HappyYooper

The furnace, stove & oven work in the camper!!


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## Jim-mi

Happy days . .that they work . . . 
Think about picking up a couple spare 20 ot 30 pound LP tanks.....
....they always run out at the darndest times.......

Beware that the **Blue Rhino** idiots do not give a full tank.........
Find another supplier / tank filler in your area.......


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## oneraddad

Check your window's, theres drain's in the bottom. Just squeegee the windows a couple times in the morning. I got snowed in without seeing people for a couple weeks and months before I could drive out. I wouldn't go back and change a thing, wait I already did, I bought a snowmobile.


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## HappyYooper

Jim-mi said:


> Happy days . .that they work . . .
> Think about picking up a couple spare 20 ot 30 pound LP tanks.....
> ....they always run out at the darndest times.......
> 
> Beware that the **Blue Rhino** idiots do not give a full tank.........
> Find another supplier / tank filler in your area.......


We're planning on 2-100lb tanks


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## HappyYooper

oneraddad said:


> Check your window's, theres drain's in the bottom. Just squeegee the windows a couple times in the morning. I got snowed in without seeing people for a couple weeks and months before I could drive out. I wouldn't go back and change a thing, wait I already did, I bought a snowmobile.


I didn't know that! Thanks!


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## just_sawing

Northern Tool has a heater that might be a good thing. 
I was thinking that since you are going to cover the bottom of the trailer with bales insulation of what ever a $2600 investment in a Hot Air outside heater (US Stove Outdoor Warm Air Furnace &#8212; 180,000 BTU, 1800 CFM, Model# 1600EF) may really make a difference. I would bet that Hot Air under the camper would make the camper very easy to live in. This would not be the main source but just lighting it up a little wood and getting the floor warm would help with the bills enough to pay for the stove and when you go you take the stove with you for the permanent house.


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## simplegirl

We lived in ours in mid Missouri last winter and let me just say.... be glad you will be living in the camp. We have ours set up permanently inside a building that is heated with a pellet stove and while it was comfortable, it was NOT cheap to heat. We also used an oil filled heater inside. It would have been cheaper to rent.

It can be done but for the money we spent getting it ready to live in we could have rented and had plenty of money left over. It is a nice set up for when we stay there on the weekends now or vacation time but never again.


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## biggkidd

A 33 ft terry makes up a good part of our house. Has for five years now here in central VA. Its not warm and comfy but it is dry. We use it for the kitchen and bathroom. Its built on to a 20x24 1.5 story that we built. We are also off grid which makes it a bit tougher. You've gotten good advice here. One thing I will add is a more effecent heating system. Get a barrel stove kit and two good thick barrels cut and attach the second barrel to the top of the first using it for a heat exchange unit. Bring a heat duct from the camper into and another out of this. You can run these temporary ducts through the storage spaces with in and out side access so you dont have to cut holes in your camper. The stove needs to be below the camper if at all possible. No fan needed heat rises. Make sure to insulate the ducts as they get HOT. If you have or can get some cinder block dry stack it tight around your stove/furnace. Place some insulation and metal roofing on top. We have a plastic 275 gal water tote on ours. Long as it has water in it it will NOT melt. (5 years on ours) It does sometimes boil though. Hope this helps. GOOD LUCK. Dec is still a ways off. 

BTW the barrel stove kit and two good used barrels is less than $100. A load of good wood lasts all night.

Larry
A World Away


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## HappyYooper

Hindsight....why can't there be "beforesight"? Maybe there is but we didn't see it...we came to realize that with the money we spent on the camper & storage shed we could have had a 16'x40' building delivered & set on our acre here where we already have electric. Water is available right across the road. We could have set up our wood stove and most of our belongings in it. I guess that's what can happen to people when faced with stress, panic and decisions...
I found out yesterday we must be out of here by October 4th...I thought we had until November 1st...my mind is in a mushed up mess..trying to figure out where to start :shocked: Our son-in-law has a double axle car hauler with sides so he is going to haul big stuff (fisher wood stove (they're going to us that this winter), my wood cook stove, pot bellied stove, tables, china hutches & beds to their house. I suppose I'll start sorting rummage sale items to ship up there too..donations to Goodwill & St. Vincent's and items


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## HappyYooper

Well, that was strange...my cursor all of a sudden had a life of it's own? Anyway, the items we'll keep will be stored in the shed.
We will be shutting off the internet & Dish which is no big deal to me...hubby is a little bummed b/c he won't be able to watch his Lions play...but it will save us a lot of money each month. We have been putting away what we would be paying if we still had our mortgage plus and extra 10% so by spring (hopefully no emergencies arise) we should be set up for getting the driveway put in at our other property & put in a well. I've been trying to talk hubby into driving a point (most home in that area have done this and have plenty of water pressure) but I'm not succeeding....
I will be so glad to have this transition period over...
I found some nice blankets at St. Vincent's last Friday to use for window & door coverings. I am thinking about using velcro to help keep them tight against the walls and when I want to lift them to let the sun in it should be easy enough...what are your thoughts on doing this?
I would like to thank each one of you for all your helpful advice & support! 
I have learned so much and now I am more prepared for this adventure! BUT, I am really, really glad we'll only be staying in the camper until December 1st :dance:


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## Cindy in NY

The velcro should work for the sides and bottom. You will probably need something else for the top because it will be holding the weight.


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## HappyYooper

Cindy in NY said:


> The velcro should work for the sides and bottom. You will probably need something else for the top because it will be holding the weight.


I will be using those round curtain rods...I have a lot of them and the camper came with some too. Thanks!


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## 7thswan

I found a blog ,the people put a hoop house over their airstream for the winter.
http://foxbrookairstream.tumblr.com/tagged/Greenhouse


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## HappyYooper

7thswan said:


> I found a blog ,the people put a hoop house over their airstream for the winter.
> http://foxbrookairstream.tumblr.com/tagged/Greenhouse



Thank you for this link! It's very informative and I will keep it in the event we're living in the camper the whole winter next year!! I also like the fact that I can reuse it!


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## HappyYooper

I am so disappointed with Menard's....more so with the "boys" they hire to assist customers...
Our storage shed materials (paid for in full) were delivered Saturday afternoon.
We waited 4 weeks for this delivery. The gable ends had to be special ordered.
Well, when the materials were put onto skids something didn't look right. When we were handed the instruction book we KNEW it wasn't right gre: They sent us the wrong shed..not only that but the manual is wrong too. We don't have much of a choice but to keep it and put it up as it would take 4 more weeks (which we don't have) to get the right one sent.
When I went to the store to order it (hubby & I were there the week before to pick one out) the pictures of all the storage building were posted on a wall...trying to get someone to help me wasn't the easiest to do but when I found an associate I grabbed him! I pointed out which building I wanted to order... He made me feel like I was wasting his time through the whole process...no eye contact...no smiles..just a ho hum attitude. Took my order slip, went through check out and paid for it.
I went back last Friday to order optional shingles and to set up shipping. Once again...another lack luster experience with the associate..a different one this time. Do these kids not realize that when one is treated so poorly chances are they will NOT be going back to the store?? 
I was relieved when an experienced associate came to help out with the shipping at least!
After the load was delivered I was handed a form to fill out on my experience with Menards...:indif: YES, I will be honest, yes I am contacting corp. and yes I will be going BACK to the store we bought it from...
And to top it off when we went out later to bear hunt...nothing.
That was Saturday.
Sunday started off better..had a nice breakfast (Mexican omlets, sausage, toast, juice and coffee). After eating, John started hauling our firewood over to the camp across the road..the one we're renting starting December 1st. I helped him unload then the other neighbors stopped by...ended up talking with them for over an hour :smack don't get me wrong..we love to visit but it was bad timing! Said our good byes and got another load of wood for next door...unloaded and headed out to bait..just a couple miles from here. Got home just in time for the OTHER neighbor(Jerry) to swing in for a visit :smack:smack! He's a great guy and we did need to talk to him about a few things so that was alright until a big ol' Dodge came driving by..passed the house, backed up and pulled into our yard?? 2 guys from down state pulled in ...friends of Jerry's :smack:smack:smack Needless to say, we had a wonderful day of visiting but didn't get a darn thing done next door! Guess who'll all be helping out this weekend with setting up the building and hauling boxes over to store? Yup, it's sure nice having great neighbors!!
What's on today's agenda? Bringing over and setting up what I can in the camper & packing...however, it's early and what I plan to do and end up doing is usually different! Wish me luck!!


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## 7thswan

Best of Luck, Hang in there!


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## TNHermit

OK I dont want to be a downer but Menards is jerking you around. Unless you are building something weird you can build any shed out of what they have in stock in about three or four days with a couple of people. See my Tiny house thread on SEP and see.

If i was not going dark in 5 days I would be your instructor but somebody can show you how to frame up a building and filling the gables. on here and Google.


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## credee

I think that I'd try lining at least one room with "heavy duty" Space Blankets and see if that didn't allow the use of much less heat, or much less in the way of warm clothing. If so, then consider spending the money to do the entire rig.

But what I'd really rather do is have a much smaller trailer and move it about 800 miles south for the winter. That job would have to pay at least $50 an hour to keep me in the North for a winter, and it would definitely be for only ONE winter.


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## HappyYooper

TNHermit said:


> OK I dont want to be a downer but Menards is jerking you around. Unless you are building something weird you can build any shed out of what they have in stock in about three or four days with a couple of people. See my Tiny house thread on SEP and see.
> 
> If i was not going dark in 5 days I would be your instructor but somebody can show you how to frame up a building and filling the gables. on here and Google.


We will be w/o internet & tv October 4th..the gable roof had to be special ordered otherwise the rest of the materials were available...I will get this taken care of. We have a group of friends coming this weekend to put it up so it shouldn't take long. It's only 10'x14'.


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## TNHermit

HappyYooper said:


> We will be w/o internet & tv October 4th..the gable roof had to be special ordered otherwise the rest of the materials were available...I will get this taken care of. We have a group of friends coming this weekend to put it up so it shouldn't take long. It's only 10'x14'.


Hope you make it. Any good carpenter can put up a roof of any kind. notice you don't see the roofs like the Victorians put up but very rarely. But I have had carpenters and homeowners come to me and want to know how i did a roof without trusses. If nothing else lay it out on the deck of the shed. cut some plywood gussets and put it together.

We use to start cutting rafters for roof soon as the bottom plate was laid down for the walls


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## HappyYooper

Your Tiny Home is great! I don't know how I missed it?? I've been looking at different tiny home sites for idea's on storage and there's some pretty interesting places you can find storage!
Oh, I'm sure we'll make it alright. The guy we're renting the camp from is a carpenter and will be one of the men helping assemble the building :dance:
I'll get pictures posted )


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## nostawmama

I have been following this thread pretty closely! My husband, 2 children, and 3 dogs will be living in a similar style camper this winter. The mudroom idea was VERY appreciated and we will be incorporating that in our setup. We will likely be in WV so much less cold but definitely not the tropics!


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## Allen W

If there is any way you could I would get a 250 gallon or bigger propane tank and skip the 100lb bottles. Your paying a lot more for lp in the little bottles then you will for a bulk tank.


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## HappyYooper

Allen W said:


> If there is any way you could I would get a 250 gallon or bigger propane tank and skip the 100lb bottles. Your paying a lot more for lp in the little bottles then you will for a bulk tank.


Hmmm...thank you for the food for thought!!!! I will contact the company today to see what they charge. We'll only be in the camper until Dec. 1st but you never know when unexpected company arrives! When we move the camper to our property we'll be leaving the storage shed here and turn it into a bunk house so getting a larger tank makes sense. Thanks!


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## oneraddad

It's much cheaper to take your tanks to be filled than it is the have propane delivered


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## HappyYooper

nostawmama said:


> I have been following this thread pretty closely! My husband, 2 children, and 3 dogs will be living in a similar style camper this winter. The mudroom idea was VERY appreciated and we will be incorporating that in our setup. We will likely be in WV so much less cold but definitely not the tropics!


I am so glad I posted here with all of my questions, the folks here have been so helpful!
I wish I would be able to continue following your adventure but my internet will be off Oct. 4th....I will look for you next spring!


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## HappyYooper

oneraddad said:


> It's much cheaper to take your tanks to be filled than it is the have propane delivered


You have a point there...delivery charges are high....


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## HappyYooper

I've been having some pretty bad dreams the past few nights....involving the sheriff coming to evict us...we have until the 4th of October but it's starting to weigh heavy on my mind...John's a pretty quite guy but he asked me to bring in the big ladder so he could start taking our mounts down from the walls....he then commented that it feels real now...


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## Allen W

I've never paid a delivery charge to have a bulk tank filled.


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## Jim-mi

Yes I fully believe someone's math is flawed . . . . . . much cheaper to fill a bulk tank.
. . .Unless the mobile pig has to travel an awful lot of miles........

Youper . . .The supplier should have a 250--350--500 gallon tanks available.
There will be a fee ---maybe $65 to hook up and pressure test any of those larger tanks
Advantage; . . . . one fill to last all winter...


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## HappyYooper

I'll check with the gas companies today on prices. It would make sense to have the one tank seeing we'll be using the storage building as a bunkhouse next year.
I called Menard's yesterday and spoke with customer service & the assistant manager in building supplies. I should have received a call back from the manager but never did. Hopefully I will hear from him today. We'll begin construction Saturday morning & then I can start filling it up with stuff :dance:


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## Cindy in NY

HappyYooper said:


> I am so glad I posted here with all of my questions, the folks here have been so helpful!
> I wish I would be able to continue following your adventure but my internet will be off Oct. 4th....I will look for you next spring!


If your library has internet, try to give us updates this winter! Good luck!!


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## HappyYooper

Cindy in NY said:


> If your library has internet, try to give us updates this winter! Good luck!!


It does have internet..I can also post when we go to visit our daughter & her family


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## oneraddad

Allen W said:


> I've never paid a delivery charge to have a bulk tank filled.


It's not a delivery charge, it's price per gallon.

How much you think it costs to insure a rolling bomb driving across town ?


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## Allen W

oneraddad said:


> It's not a delivery charge, it's price per gallon.
> 
> How much you think it costs to insure a rolling bomb driving across town ?


Sorry but your off track


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## HappyYooper

HappyYooper said:


> You have a point there...delivery charges are high....


I was the one that was wrong...they don't charge for delivery...I just added a new wrinkle to my brain....the price is per gallon. Right now the price here is $1.99 per gallon so a fill up at 80% would cost $415.79 including 4% tax. This is what she quoted me )


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## HappyYooper

UPDATE on MENARDS building:
I finally got fed up enough...I never did hear back from the manager so I called on Saturday. I asked to have them come and pick up the building materials and wanted a FULL CASH refund. They had a driver came on Sunday and pick it all up, I followed him to the store and received my FULL refund!
We ordered a pre-built barn style building on Saturday, it was delivered yesterday afternoon and today I will be hauling our items! And I LOVE it!! Privy is going up this week too


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## CurtisWilliams

When I first bought my house, just north of Omaha, due to circumstanced that I allowed, I lived in my 14' camper. I lived in it until at the end of December, when the nights were hitting -10F. I used a heated mattress cover, an electric blanket, and slept in long john pajamas, thermal socks and a hat. I was quite cozy when under the covers, but when nature called during my slumber, I peed icicles. My dog, who was not as bright as I was, despite repeated invitations to sleep with me in my doubly heated bed, insisted on shivering on the floor.

A camper in winter is livable. Just not comfortable.


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## soulsurvivor

I lived in a mobile home, 12' x 50', for 10 years before we got this house. The trailer was a cheap home and not well built, even for a mobile home. This was back in the 70s and we got to ride out the record breaking winter of 1978 in that little tin can. The indoor frost line was halfway up the wall and that was with the natural gas furnace running full time along with a large kerosene heater at one end of the trailer and an electric heater on the other end. 

Mouse proof anyway you can. You can use heavy duty aluminum foil and cable ties to wrap and seal around all lines and pipes coming up into the rv. I'd also stuff any openings with steel wool and use spray foam everywhere under there. 

I never did put a permanent skirt on the trailer because we had to be under there so often to thaw out the water lines, and we had electrical heat tape wrap on them, and were connected to city water/sewage. We had to use a blow torch to thaw out the lines because when it got zero and below the lines froze before getting to the heat tape. 

Check any produce, especially sacks of potatoes, before bringing them into your rv. You don't want to end up with a roach infestation. That was a nightmare. After 2 roach bombs there were dead and near dead roaches falling off the light fixtures. Never again.

I used heavy plastic stapled on the windows. Then I put up thermal backed heavy duty curtains. Those vinyl tablecloths work great too. Just know that anything you hang over the windows is probably going to get wet from the condensation. That also translates into wet carpeting and floor under the windows too. The window drains freeze up too..

Hot summers weren't any easier. The window air conditioners couldn't cool the trailer when the outdoor temps went into the 90s and above. We used every chance we got to take our tent and camp out at the river. 

Besh wishes for your new adventure and I hope it all goes well for you and your family.


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## farmgal

Allen W said:


> Sorry but your off track


No he's not. first of all, around here they wouldnt even think of setting up a tank to a camper. Only a small one, if your lucky to get that. It takes years for them to recoup the money for the big tank and set up. My friend owns a huge propane business. Second. they charge delivery service for anything under I believe 150 cf., They also charge more per gallon the less you buy.


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## soulsurvivor

HappyYooper said:


> I was the one that was wrong...they don't charge for delivery...I just added a new wrinkle to my brain....the price is per gallon. Right now the price here is $1.99 per gallon so a fill up at 80% would cost $415.79 including 4% tax. This is what she quoted me )


Because we had a 500 gallon tank installed we got the first 80% fill for $1.39 a gallon. This was last week. You could maybe call back and see if they offer this new customer promotion.


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## HappyYooper

I have the insulation for the door, plastic for the windows & heavy material to make our curtains. However, we have another issue....we had some rain here and the inside walls are getting wavy and my daughter (they came up last weekend to help pack and get the heavy stuff moved) noticed that the kitchen window is leaking. We were told that the roof was coated with roof coating every year but we are thinking that seeing the camper sat for over 3 years before we bought it the move may have unsealed the coating? I bought a 4.75 gallon of Fibered Aluminum roof coating for mobile homes & RV's & will apply that this week. There isn't any rain in the forecast.. I'm sick about the interior but dh said we can remove the walls next spring, insulate and put up new walls. At least we'll only be in the camper 2 months this year. We've decided to go with 2 of the 70lb. gas tanks. We have 2-20 pounders hooked up right now and everything is working fine...except of course the water pump which we will replace next year. We'll probably end up going through the whole thing when the new place is livable. 
If we can keep to our budget we should have enough to pay cash for the new place...that is the shell. We will be going with a pre built shed for our cabin. Not having a mortgage payment now is a big part of our saving. We are also putting away off the top 10% of his earnings, collecting metal, I picked up a cleaning job for a retired football player from the Cleveland Browns last year! They hunt up here and my neighbor is the caretaker of his property. He was looking for someone to clean the camp (yea, some camp....!) and my neighbor mentioned my name! So, all the extra income goes to our cabin fund. Dh's boss has his own logging business so come time for us to put in our driveway he said he'll do the work and also clear out the stumps/level where we plan to build/garden, keep my horses and dig for the septic. That will help save a lot too....
Our last day here will be Friday. I contacted all of our utilities so they will be off...I spoke with my computer guy and I'm considering a trade off..my desk top for a lap top. I have no room in the camper and my computer is getting up in age so a lap top would be perfect...he's been my guy for many years and has a few he wants me too look at...I can keep a blog of our adventure. I'm also looking for any good books to read...I would like to get as much information on raising chickens,a few goats & solar to start with. Any suggestions would be appreciated!
When it does come time to find a new gas company I will keep in mind what you said Soulsurvivor! I would rather have the extra in our pocket than theirs! Thank you all for sharing your experiences and information!


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## cast iron

HappyYooper said:


> noticed that the kitchen window is leaking. We were told that the roof was coated with roof coating every year but we are thinking that seeing the camper sat for over 3 years before we bought it the move may have unsealed the coating? I bought a 4.75 gallon of Fibered Aluminum roof coating for mobile homes & RV's & will apply that this week.


Troubleshooting and fixing leaks in these older RV's is often a crap shoot. That's in part why you see so many units running around with multiple accumulations of the roof sealant instead of finding and fixing the leaks properly. At this point the best you can do is try putting another coat on it and hope it works. I would pay particular attention to the two sides (edges) of the trailer where the roof meets the wall. This area often develops leaks in and around the gutter that runs down the length of the trailer. Also check the seam between the front and rear caps and the roof.

To reseal the window properly it should be removed but I don't think you time for that (there are videos on how to do it though). Best you can probably do is clean the old sealer from the top horizontal part of the window trim and put some new caulking in there and hope that it works. What happens frequently is the old caulking shrinks and cracks over time, allowing the water that runs down the side of the trailer to enter at the top of the window trim and make its way inside from there.



> If we can keep to our budget we should have enough to pay cash for the new place...that is the shell. We will be going with a pre built shed for our cabin. Not having a mortgage payment now is a big part of our saving...
> 
> Dh's boss has his own logging business so come time for us to put in our driveway he said he'll do the work and also clear out the stumps/level where we plan to build/garden, keep my horses and dig for the septic. That will help save a lot too....


These two things are huge positives and should be remembered on those days when the trailer is pulling at your last ounce of patience.



> Our last day here will be Friday. I contacted all of our utilities so they will be off...I spoke with my computer guy and I'm considering a trade off..my desk top for a lap top. I have no room in the camper and my computer is getting up in age so a lap top would be perfect...he's been my guy for many years and has a few he wants me too look at...I can keep a blog of our adventure.


A laptop would be much more useful given your situation. I think documenting your journey is good therapy and will make for excellent documentation of memories. And good, bad, or indifferent, the trailer living is an integral part of the adventure. 

I would encourage you to look at this journey as a Marathon and not a Sprint. I know I struggled with this as I always wanted to get to the end point and have the perfect homestead completed and 'done'. What I learned is the homestead will never be perfect and it will never be 'done'. The important part is the journey, not so much the ultimate destination. The journey is where the memories will be made. With a laptop you could go to the library or starbucks or other entity with wifi and download books and information to be read offline at a later time. Or even upload your latest blog entries if desired.

Best of luck on your adventure.


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## Bellyman

HappyYooper said:


> ...I spoke with my computer guy and I'm considering a trade off..my desk top for a lap top. I have no room in the camper and my computer is getting up in age so a lap top would be perfect...he's been my guy for many years and has a few he wants me too look at...I can keep a blog of our adventure. ...


I just updated my computer a couple of months ago. Went with a new cheap 17" laptop and have been happier with it than I thought. 

I don't know if there's anything special you "need" in a laptop but a couple of things kinda surprised me. 1) $400 will buy a pretty nice basic laptop. 2) Even the cheaper AMD processors are light years faster than my old 7 year old Dell, even though it was top of the line 7 years ago. 3) It's much lighter in weight. 4) It's way cooler. It can sit on my lap and it's barely even warm where my old one was uncomfortably hot. 5) Windows 8 isn't my favorite but so far I am able to what I need to do. 

Mine came from Best Buy but there was another very similar one from Office Depot for almost the same price, both just under the $400 mark. There are even cheaper options out there but I like my higher screen resolution and 17" size. 

Best of luck!


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## DarleneJ

Hang in there. Wet walls/leaky windows, etc. The leak could be something besides the roof. Just beware that the wetness in the walls and heat on the interior is a breeding ground for mold/mildew. Hopefully you won't be in the trailer very long.

One thing to watch is how and where does the water drain off the roof. There are little gutter spouts that help direct the water away from the trailer so there isn't as much water running down the sides. There is also covering with a tarp.

You're keeping a great outlook on the situation considering all you are dealing with. Don't let the details grate on you. I'm proud of your resourcefulness. ...And what we all wish we knew in the hindsite of our lives... Blessings to you.


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## Jim-mi

That is another option I haven't seen mentioned on this thread . . . . . A well tied down tarp. will buy you some time, and give a temporary fix to a hard to find leak. It could give a "awning" over a stubborn leaky window.
Well tied down so the wind doesn't distroy it....

Lol . .starbucks where you are at . . .or where I am . . . . . . .lol . . . .
Thank goodness we don't have "them" any where around. . . . . . . . .


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## farmerpat

HappyYooper said:


> I am so glad I posted here with all of my questions, the folks here have been so helpful!
> I wish I would be able to continue following your adventure but my internet will be off Oct. 4th....I will look for you next spring!


If you find a way to have web access, even for just a few minutes, please keep us informed on how things are going with you.


*GOOD LUCK, AND STAY WARM!!!!!!!!!!*


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## HappyYooper

CurtisWilliams said:


> When I first bought my house, just north of Omaha, due to circumstanced that I allowed, I lived in my 14' camper. I lived in it until at the end of December, when the nights were hitting -10F. I used a heated mattress cover, an electric blanket, and slept in long john pajamas, thermal socks and a hat. I was quite cozy when under the covers, but when nature called during my slumber, I peed icicles. My dog, who was not as bright as I was, despite repeated invitations to sleep with me in my doubly heated bed, insisted on shivering on the floor.
> 
> A camper in winter is livable. Just not comfortable.



Come to think of it...we DO have an electric blanket we got from DH's mom!! Glad you mentioned that!


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## HappyYooper

Jim-mi said:


> That is another option I haven't seen mentioned on this thread . . . . . A well tied down tarp. will buy you some time, and give a temporary fix to a hard to find leak. It could give a "awning" over a stubborn leaky window.
> Well tied down so the wind doesn't distroy it....
> 
> Lol . .starbucks where you are at . . .or where I am . . . . . . .lol . . . .
> Thank goodness we don't have "them" any where around. . . . . . . . .


lol, starbucks ...even if there was a Starbucks here I'd never go there...WAY too expensive for me...but I have had it every time we are at Saint Joseph's Children's hospital in Marshfield and it is soooooo good!! The library would be the place for me 
When the kids spent the weekend over at the camper my sil was able to get that wi-fi? I don't know much about it but he's the one that mentioned if I had a laptop it would work for me. So I'm talking to my computer guy today.
We do have a HUGE tarp that would more than cover the camper so I will bring that up to bubby tonight. We have a outdoor vented stove not saying that I burn a lot of food  and if needed I can always crack open a window....


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## HappyYooper

farmerpat said:


> If you find a way to have web access, even for just a few minutes, please keep us informed on how things are going with you.
> 
> 
> *GOOD LUCK, AND STAY WARM!!!!!!!!!!*


Thank you! And...
I may have found a way to keep on the internet!


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## HappyYooper

Bellyman said:


> I just updated my computer a couple of months ago. Went with a new cheap 17" laptop and have been happier with it than I thought.
> 
> I don't know if there's anything special you "need" in a laptop but a couple of things kinda surprised me. 1) $400 will buy a pretty nice basic laptop. 2) Even the cheaper AMD processors are light years faster than my old 7 year old Dell, even though it was top of the line 7 years ago. 3) It's much lighter in weight. 4) It's way cooler. It can sit on my lap and it's barely even warm where my old one was uncomfortably hot. 5) Windows 8 isn't my favorite but so far I am able to what I need to do.
> 
> Mine came from Best Buy but there was another very similar one from Office Depot for almost the same price, both just under the $400 mark. There are even cheaper options out there but I like my higher screen resolution and 17" size.
> 
> Best of luck!


There really isn't anything I need special on the laptop...just as long as I can still conduct business off of it...and connect a printer to it. I don't know anything about laptops. Tim, my computer guy, told me he had some starting at $200.00 so today I have to run to town so I'll stop in to chat with him...hopefully we can strike a deal!


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## HappyYooper

DarleneJ said:


> Hang in there. Wet walls/leaky windows, etc. The leak could be something besides the roof. Just beware that the wetness in the walls and heat on the interior is a breeding ground for mold/mildew. Hopefully you won't be in the trailer very long.
> 
> One thing to watch is how and where does the water drain off the roof. There are little gutter spouts that help direct the water away from the trailer so there isn't as much water running down the sides. There is also covering with a tarp.
> 
> You're keeping a great outlook on the situation considering all you are dealing with. Don't let the details grate on you. I'm proud of your resourcefulness. ...And what we all wish we knew in the hindsite of our lives... Blessings to you.


We'll only be in the camper until Dec. 1st..then renting a camp across the road from our camper :goodjob: So, when I'm bored I can go over to the storage building, go through my boxes and sort what I want to keep and what to rid of! Right now all I'm doing is hauling everything over (except what I know I don't need) 
I guess hindsight is what makes us grow and hopefully NOT make the same mistakes, right?...all I know is I can't WAIT until this week is over :hrm:


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## HappyYooper

Wayne02 said:


> Troubleshooting and fixing leaks in these older RV's is often a crap shoot. That's in part why you see so many units running around with multiple accumulations of the roof sealant instead of finding and fixing the leaks properly. At this point the best you can do is try putting another coat on it and hope it works. I would pay particular attention to the two sides (edges) of the trailer where the roof meets the wall. This area often develops leaks in and around the gutter that runs down the length of the trailer. Also check the seam between the front and rear caps and the roof.
> 
> To reseal the window properly it should be removed but I don't think you time for that (there are videos on how to do it though). Best you can probably do is clean the old sealer from the top horizontal part of the window trim and put some new caulking in there and hope that it works. What happens frequently is the old caulking shrinks and cracks over time, allowing the water that runs down the side of the trailer to enter at the top of the window trim and make its way inside from there.
> 
> These two things are huge positives and should be remembered on those days when the trailer is pulling at your last ounce of patience.
> 
> A laptop would be much more useful given your situation. I think documenting your journey is good therapy and will make for excellent documentation of memories. And good, bad, or indifferent, the trailer living is an integral part of the adventure.
> 
> I would encourage you to look at this journey as a Marathon and not a Sprint. I know I struggled with this as I always wanted to get to the end point and have the perfect homestead completed and 'done'. What I learned is the homestead will never be perfect and it will never be 'done'. The important part is the journey, not so much the ultimate destination. The journey is where the memories will be made. With a laptop you could go to the library or starbucks or other entity with wifi and download books and information to be read offline at a later time. Or even upload your latest blog entries if desired.
> 
> Best of luck on your adventure.


The only sprint we're running right now is this week....otherwise I'm looking forward to the journey..I may not be saying this in a month but right now I am! The camper is set up in a nice spot, I have all my bird feeders set out so I can look out every window and see them..and I will have our horses close enough to see them. All the books I've been wanting to read are in place and I have Back to Basic's ordered from Amazon...looking forward to doing some ready again!
Thank you!


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## Jim-mi

If you were to "tarp" be careful not to cover any furnace venting.....
A smaller tarp just over where that pesky leak is..........


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## Jim-mi

I was contemplating crossing the Big Mac and visiting you folks . . 
. .but since you live in such an uncivilized area that you don't have a starbucks "on-the-next-block-over" . . I guess I'll just stay home and pout . . . . . . . .LOL


Would I pay their prices for a cup of coffee . . . .NO . . .


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## cast iron

Jim-mi said:


> I was contemplating crossing the Big Mac and visiting you folks . .
> . .but since you live in such an uncivilized area that you don't have a starbucks "on-the-next-block-over" . . I guess I'll just stay home and pout . . . . . . . .LOL
> Would I pay their prices for a cup of coffee . . . .NO . . .


It's not about the coffee, its about finding a wifi connection if needed when you travel to the nearest town for supplies every month or so. Nobody said you even have to go in the building, just park outside. And it doesn't have to be starbucks, could be a local cafe or restaurant. Mcdonalds is another possibility and their large drip coffee is only a $1 and it's quite good. Mcdonalds will disconnect you after an hour though if I remember correctly. 

Library is good, but the county library's around here are often very crowded. You need to go early to stake out one of chairs otherwise you will sit on the floor or in your car in the parking lot. 

You might try one of the wifi finder programs on your laptop. You may be surprised to find wifi signals emanating from unlikely places. And of course make sure your laptop battery is fully charged before leaving for town. There was a period of time where the feed store folks would let me use their wifi signal when I went into town to get supplies from them.

http://www.techsupportalert.com/best-free-wi-fi-network-finder-utility.htm


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## HappyYooper

We sealed the roof when dh got home tonight...we talked it over and decided not to tarp it....it's supposed to rain tomorrow so we'll see if that helped.


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## soulsurvivor

Wayne02 said:


> It's not about the coffee, its about finding a wifi connection if needed when you travel to the nearest town for supplies every month or so. Nobody said you even have to go in the building, just park outside. And it doesn't have to be starbucks, could be a local cafe or restaurant. Mcdonalds is another possibility and their large drip coffee is only a $1 and it's quite good. Mcdonalds will disconnect you after an hour though if I remember correctly.
> 
> Library is good, but the county library's around here are often very crowded. You need to go early to stake out one of chairs otherwise you will sit on the floor or in your car in the parking lot.
> 
> You might try one of the wifi finder programs on your laptop. You may be surprised to find wifi signals emanating from unlikely places. And of course make sure your laptop battery is fully charged before leaving for town. There was a period of time where the feed store folks would let me use their wifi signal when I went into town to get supplies from them.
> 
> http://www.techsupportalert.com/best-free-wi-fi-network-finder-utility.htm


Would/could hotels and motels be on this list of possible connections outdoors? I've had connections in a room but needed a code to enter for connecting.


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## cast iron

soulsurvivor said:


> Would/could hotels and motels be on this list of possible connections outdoors? I've had connections in a room but needed a code to enter for connecting.


Could be though I've never checked from outside. About half the hotels I've stayed in required the code as you mentioned. Seems like the large corporate businesses have their wireless signals well policed, but many of the small town independent business not so much.

If you go into the small town cafe during off-peak hours and sit at one of the out-the-way tables they often don't care if you order a half sandwich and then sit there for another hour or more using their connection while sipping on water refills. 

The library is the best bet if you can find one in a less populated area of the county where it is not crowded. I've been paying big bucks out of my property taxes for the last 30 years, I might as well use it.


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## used2bcool13

Hi Happyooper,
How did the roof hold up with the rain? Sealing is a great thing to do, can be expensive. Are you getting water in around the windows? just tap lightly around the windows on the wood, sometimes you need to caulk around the windows also. That's where we had leaking and water damage to the walls. DH did just remove the walls inside and repair them, he had to repair some flooring also. This damage was done before we bought and wasn't relayed to us, we didn't know as this is our first camper. We have a portable hotspot from Verizon, I think they start at 20/mo., don't use youtube or you will use all of your data quick and in a hurry like, lol ask me how I know that. Other wise most places to eat/sleep or socialize have wifi and will give you the code to log on with. I don't know how far the signal extends though. Let us know if you find something like that that works, I will check also.


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## manygoatsnmore

I stayed at Comfort Inns on my recent road trip, no code required to connect with their wi-fi. If you have one anywhere around, it may be another option for you. Looking forward to hearing updates as you're able. Good luck!


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## texican

Our local library has a one hour limit on wifi, if you use their computers...if someone else is wanting to use them. Otherwise, you can stay there all day. Carry a notebook or tablet, and your golden... they leave it on 24/7, although I've yet had a reason to go there in the middle of the night.


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## HappyYooper

/giid,,,/good morning!! I picked up jmy laptop (need toget usd to it) yesterday...an even swap:goodjob: I am picking up wifi from someone on our backroad that has it! Just thought I'd pop in quick to say hello && things are going pretty good so far. Today should be the last day moving...I need to go through the attic as when my daughter helped out she pretty much threw w/o asking first and dh found the backrestt to our outdoor bench and some personal info...we spent the whole day Sunday putting up fencing for the hroses and moved them. They are pretty busy investigating. So far we haven't seen any nore indications of leaking! Mother Nature has been kind during the week but when weekends come she's totally against us! RAIN RAIN RAIN! But we had to work through it. I haven't had time to insulate the windows yet but I will NEED to get it done this week...looks like our warm fall is over with soon. The S word has been metioned...we're still on our first 20lb tank of gas but we'll be changing over to the next one soon. My brother has exta's and also a 100lb tank @ his house..we also have one so those will be filled. Other than the fact the it's a bit cramped at the moment (every time I get our stuff put away there's beenanother lload coming over :grumble:. But there are only a couple more boxes to transport and then DONE! Our dogs are confused....when I take them out for their potty breaks they go over to the "other" house so I need to keep Loosey on a leash for the time being. The retired couple across the road from us who used to be friendly have now snubbed us....they haven't spoken to us since the beginning of the month...won't even wave ....oh well. I found my BEST friends during this adventure have been: paper plates, paper towels, plastic utensils, disinfectant wipes, germ x, and those big frozen dinners. When you actually break down the cost they aren't that expensive...I bought a mexican lasagna for $10.99 and we got 6 meals from it! I included fresh tomoatoes that I'm getting from the garden finally and it was pretty good...they also helped time/energy wise. The move have been pretty exhausting. Glad part 1 is almost over with. The family we are renting the cabin from in December is up and they invited us for a bonfire and a couple beers last Saturday evening. It sure felt good to relax & put our feet up for a couple hours!
There has been condensation on the windows some mornings but with the insulation hopefully that will lessen it...I also need to get those heavy duty curtains made! As soon as I have the time!'
////well, better get moving otherwise nothing will get accomplished ....I also have to run into town to pick up break pads and rotors for my pickup....:sob: dh works with a guy that will put them on for us and only charges $15.00 an hour...he does maintenance on the log truck so it shiouldn't take long1
Have a great day everyone!!!!!


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## HappyYooper

Good morning folks  Today marks our one month anniversary living in the camper. October's weather was down right miserable. Average temp's 10 degrees lower than average and rain/snow I would say 98% of the month. On the 29th we had our lowest temperature since 2002...18 degrees.
We went through 2-20 lb. tanks of gas and hooked up a 100 pound tank on the 22nd...still on that tank. Condensation? Oh yea! Our cat has a constant supply of water in the bottom of the sills. I need wipe down the windows daily to keep them clear & dry....I can see where a dehumidifier would be needed. If we keep the camper, next year we need to take down the interior walls as the warped bad when we tried the water pump out. Water spewed everywhere..we'll probably add a closed in porch to it & put in a small wood stove. I didn't put insulating plastic over the windows either which would be done next winter if the camper is used by our hunter friends.
The month hasn't been bad..we have actually enjoyed it but November is another month so maybe our feeling will change by the end?? We're thankful that we will be staying in the cabin Dec. 1 for the rest of the winter though! 
I still haven't found my jeans....


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## Spinner

HappyYooper said:


> ... We are hoping to live in it this winter... I'm not sure what we need to do to help keep the camper warmer? ANY tips would be appreciated!! Or is this even possible? ...


DH lived in campers for years on job sites. Several times he was up north and used different methods, but the one he liked best was this.

He used straw bales for insulation under the camper. He tossed a package of "bar bait" under the camper before closing it off to the wind. The bar bait kills mice with one bite. It must have worked cause he never had a mouse in the camper.

He built a temporary "lean to" to keep snow off the roof and block the north wind. It was made from pvc pipe and a tarp large enough to cover the roof and one side. The tarp he had was long enough he ran it a few feet away from the camper before turning down to the ground. That gave him some storage space between the camper and the tarp. I think his was 50' x 100' white UV resistant and it lasted him several years. It cost him around $100 a few years ago, probably a bit more now.

The factory heater kept breaking down. He fixed it a couple times, but decided to use an alternative method of heat to save money. Over the years he used several different types of heaters, but eventually settled on one called a Seasonaire. It's electric, but uses very little power. I think he said around $65 a month in freezing weather (of course different companies will have different rates and he is comfortable around 68Â° while I like it closer to 78Â°.) The heater cost him about $400 but he's been using it for several years with no problems. It also works as a humidifier and air cleaner (which is almost a necessity living in a camper that's closed up all winter.) 

The final thing he did was to buy some insulating paint for the roof (it's some kind of "puff paint"). His camper is 33' long and he used 3 or 4 gallons of paint and put it on real thick. He said it really made a difference in keeping the camper warm. He paints it every time he moves it very far. He claims that the movement when bouncing along roads will cause leaks so he does this as a leak preventative in addition to the insulation quality. 

Hope this helps you. Good luck and stay warm.



ETA: I didn't look at the date of the original post. I was surprised to see that my post showed up on page 6! lol You've probably gone way past needing any advice, but I'll leave it here anyway, maybe it'll help someone else who reads this thread some day.


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## Bret

Everything OK?


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## myheaven

Happy youper, you have been on my mind a lot. We have had super nasty weather. I pray you are ok and if your camper isn't enough you got a better shelter.


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## Bellyman

We're still living in our rv. Then again, we have lived in an rv for over 8 years now. In central Kentucky where we are right now, it was -5 last night. We're doing just fine. I did dump the fresh water on Sunday and put antifreeze in the lines just to protect things. We've been living off of bottled water during this cold snap. I'll de-winterize probably tomorrow when the temps are back up above freezing again. 

I might have been just fine with the heat on. But I don't know. It's one of those things like, "How much weight can you put on a cinder block before it breaks?" Once you know, it's broken. So I spent $10 on antifreeze and will go for a couple of days without water so that when it warms up tomorrow and I turn it all back on, everything will be pretty much as I left it, no broken water lines, no broken fixtures, and really, no frustration because it was a "planned event" for us. 

Dipping down into the single digits for a few hours wouldn't have bothered me a bit. But with them being sustained for 2 or 3 days near zero, I wussed out. LOL!! If we'd been in a place where I could have put up some skirting, I might have been more inclined to keep it all on, maybe adding a little heat to the area just below the water tanks.

Hey, it's doable. And it's not bad, really. At least from my perspective. I, too, have wondered how the OP may be doing.


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## jwal10

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/country-homemaking/cooking/504130-powdered-yeast-question.html


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