# Breeding cats



## gabbyraja (Feb 27, 2012)

I had kind of always assumed with so many cats needing homes nobody would really pay for one. But I read on another thread a little while back that someone was making ok money breeding Siamese, I think. I LOOOOOVE cats and it's one thing we're not allergic to. I would absolutely love to breed cats if there was any money in it. Can anyone weigh in on this? I think Persian-types are popular, people may pay money for them. And I love Himalayans... I see them for sale on Hoobly, but can't figure out where else you could gain a customer base... And I'm not positive I would want to get into showing, so I'm not sure that you could really gain a name without doing so...

What do you think?


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

No. No no no no no.
I bred bengals for a time. It was not profitable. I kept careful records. , once, made exactly $10 on a litter. LOL. I lost a couple hundred each litter, but seeing those spotted, glittery little babies grow up and go off to wonderful homes made it worth it. I got to visit some, and was thrilled to see they were loved and as I had hoped, more beautiful than their parents.

You don't breed to make a buck, you breed because you love them and they are a credit to their breed.


Please do not try to breed a pet animal for money. It attracts the wrong crowd and it is unkind to sell an animal bred to be a companion to the highest bidder.

I had people who were wildly unsuitable cat owners (yes, they exist... people are insane) and I turned them down. They would often come back with "Well, I'll pay you another hundred for her!" or whatever. Yeah, no. That is immoral IMNSHO.

Let me tell you, a well socialized kitten or cat is a delight. They are wonderful companions. You will be RESPONSIBLE for those lives. If you can love a kitten, raise her, find a complimentary tom and buy his services/raise him, let them have a litter, spend hours a day working with said litter, and then sell them like a product, you do not need to be breeding. Look at the Lolli Bros. Auction. My breed often has members for sale there and that just breaks my heart. 

There are easier ways to back a buck than off a handful of cats. I kept a PT job to help support the cattery. 


I'm sorry, but I have seen folks who do this for money, and it is a terrible thing. It is so SAD, and pointless! Often, it makes me angry, because they cut corners I find unacceptable. You cannot feed your pregnant girls crap food, stick your stud outside in a chicken coop, sell kittens at six weeks old to the first comer, spray the lot down with flea spray and call it good when they are being eaten alive, and then try to chat with me like we're coworkers. No. 


Don't do it. Really. Don't.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

My friend bred Siamese and was one of the top breeders in the U.S. for the breed while she was showing. She certainly wasn't making money breeding them and selling them to pet homes. The only time she would make money on a litter is selling them to other show homes and that was after she spent thousands making a name for her cattery. There is a reason you don't see a lot of people selling cats in the newspaper, not too many who want a "pet cat" will pay for them. If it was a money making venture everyone would be doing it. Most people will go to a shelter and get one for next to free. If you still think its a good idea start researching all the infections and diseases you will be dealing with, housing toms and queens, vet costs and all the other expenses you will incur.


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## gabbyraja (Feb 27, 2012)

Yes, this is what I was thinking. If you're not showing, then a shelter is good enough, plus makes people feel good about themselves. I was doing it TO make money, but if I could do it AND make money, well that would be something I would love far more than goats or pigs... I tried to breed poodle mixes once. The male I got was unable to finish the job, after 2 heats, and then the economy hit us... I doubt I could really even breed poodles in this economy (and due to dog allergies every other breed but shih tzu, which has too many genetic and birthing problems for me to mess around with, has caused me a lot of trouble).

I'm a raw feeder, so I would not be feeding anything junk food, and I would raise any animal holistically (I 100% set to be a holistic dog breeder, and would have with cats, too), but it's sounding like it's not worth it...


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Please don't try to breed pets for profit. It's absolutely the WRONG way to go about things. Read Jen's post again, and again and again, if you ever get this idea into your head again. I am relieved to hear that your "designer-dog" breeding operation failed. I'm sorry, but I have no encouraging words for backyard breeders. Not in this climate of pet overpopulation, bad breeding, and a weak economy. 

I have Ocicats. The breeders I have worked with have top-winning show cats and campaign them all over the US. To quote one of them: "If I'm really lucky, I only lose about $50 per kitten". This is after selling kittens for upwards of $1000 each.

In order to be successful breeding show cats, you must SHOW. And that takes money, and lots of it. Breeding show cats is something people do to spend money, not make it. You have to love the breed, but more importantly, you must KNOW the breed, or have a mentor to direct you. You must understand the bloodlines and how they may (or may not) combine, who carries hidden recessives, and who will bring what traits to the table. It is so much more complicated to do it the right way, and even commanding top dollar for kittens, this is more an expensive hobby than anything.

If you want to make money breeding animals, try the meat market. Your chances of turning a profit are much better if you do it right.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

The people that i know who breed cats are not making a profit, even though they get high prices. In order to get those prices, they win at shows and do genetic testing and things like hip X-rays, all of which are costly.

Nobody with a couple of pet cats in the bedroom is going to make any money. Cats are free all over the place. The only people willing to spend big money want the looks and the health testing, plus the early proper socialization that they get from a successful show breeder.

Plus, in order to breed registered cats, you need a breeding tom, and they are foul. Spraying all over the place, screaming and moaning. Not many people can stand to be around them.


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## gabbyraja (Feb 27, 2012)

I did not attempt to breed "designer dogs." I attempted to breed a dog that many people who like dogs but are allergic to them are able to tolerate. While not truly "hypoallergenic", poodles and crosses are the easiest to handle for those allergic. When I am near an average dog my eyes itch so badly I want to tear them out. If I'm in a room with them for more than an hour I'm phlegmy, my nose is itchy and runny, and my eyes are not just itchy but red and burning. And so on. I lived with my poodle and shih tzu without more than a little throat clearing... I understand the unhappiness my children experienced not being able to have a dog because I am allergic, and people are only becoming more allergic to their environments every year. Poodles are not a fad to those like us.

Cats was just a "Do you mean I could have the cats I love AND make money on them?" I was surprised, but skeptical. With reason, it seems.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

People who have fine dogs, health tested, temperament tested, etc., do not mix such dog with a different breed. They find another fine dog to breed it with. Mixing breeds simply puts into the "back yard breeder" of breeder who is creating a designer "breed" category of people who care more about money than they do about the dogs they own. If you want to breed a hyperallergenic dog, than stick with purebreds.

If you want a cat, get a cat. But, since you sound like some one who would take good care of the cat, you probably won't make money breeding them. Which is fine if you don't mind not making money from them. I'm like you, I thought how nice it would be to breed dogs I loved and make money from them. After doing research into it I realized I'd never make money being a breeder. But I love dogs, so I foster rescue dogs.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

I dunno. I have absolutely no interest in show animals and in fact would find show bloodlines almost a turn off. On the other hand I'd be glad to find a healthy beautiful animal at a reasonable price. All purebreds do not need to cost a fortune! To find one from someone who really cared about them would mean a lot to me.

On the other hand, I usually get all the cats I need via strays and or dumped animals so can't say that I have ever bought a pure bred. I tried once and got so freaked out by it I stuck to shelter kitties till strays and ferals entered my life. I did adopt a purebred persian from a purebred rescue for my elderly mother - she insisted she needed only a persian. Very grateful to have been able to make mom happy and adopt a rescue cat.

Not saying you should breed cats. But am saying this whole show animal only breeding thing is kinda offensive, at least to me.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

cathleenc said:


> I dunno. I have absolutely no interest in show animals and in fact would find show bloodlines almost a turn off. On the other hand I'd be glad to find a healthy beautiful animal at a reasonable price. All purebreds do not need to cost a fortune! To find one from someone who really cared about them would mean a lot to me.
> 
> On the other hand, I usually get all the cats I need via strays and or dumped animals so can't say that I have ever bought a pure bred. I tried once and got so freaked out by it I stuck to shelter kitties till strays and ferals entered my life. I did adopt a purebred persian from a purebred rescue for my elderly mother - she insisted she needed only a persian. Very grateful to have been able to make mom happy and adopt a rescue cat.
> 
> Not saying you should breed cats. But am saying this whole show animal only breeding thing is kinda offensive, at least to me.


The original poster specifically asked about making money. Have any idea on how to breed cats and make money with out showing them? You are not going to make money just raising healthy happy cats. Nearly ever farm has healthy kittens they can't give away, breeding healthy kittens is already being done. I am not sure whats so offensive and where it was said only show animals should be bred.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

cathleenc said:


> Not saying you should breed cats. But am saying this whole show animal only breeding thing is kinda offensive, at least to me.


Show breeding has its own ethical issues, but what reputable breeders are doing is breeding cats that are healthy, with good temperament, AND are beautiful to look at, hopefully enough to win in the show ring. They make outstanding pets when well-bred. There is a difference between a purebred cat and your average farm or alley cat--I love them all, but my Ocicats are very different from my regular cats, and more predictable in terms of temperament and behavior. 

Now, when you're talking about Persians, I do agree that the way they are bred is offensive... flat faces, tiny slits for nostrils, eye problems, breathing problems, etc... just like English Bulldogs. When show breeding becomes *harmful* to the animals, that is when I get upset.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

gabbyraja said:


> I did not attempt to breed "designer dogs." I attempted to breed a dog that many people who like dogs but are allergic to them are able to tolerate.


I'm sorry, but that is exactly what "designer dog" breeders say.

If Poodles and Shih-tzus don't bother your allergies, that's great. Why would you need to breed them to each other? There are thousands and thousands of backyard breeders doing that already.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

My thought is, that if cat herding was such a profitable business, then you'd see cat ranches all over the US.. 

I knew a lady that bred Himalayans.. WOW.. what a mess, and what a chore, and she was usually money behind.. I think for her it was more about the love of the breed than anything, and it gave her a chance to write off losses to fund her cat habit.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

I breed Persians and Himis. I spare no expense for them. I am extremely picky on who buys my kittens and I have a buy back clause if for some reason they can't keep it. All my pet kittens are spayed before leaving. That said I do make a profit. I charge $900 a kitten for pet quality. I share stud services with a fellow breeder, we each have a stud and we both use them depending on what colors we want. I advertise a lot by both word of mouth and the Internet. You can do it but it takes work to be responsible. The best thing is to get a good working relationship with a vet. They will often give you discounts if you refer people. Pick your breed because it's a breed you love. They are all different. 

I also work with other breeders who live out in the sticks. They breed sell the kittens to me inexpensively I socialize them and resell them. The other breeders can't get people to drive 3 hours to go look at kittens. First and foremost I am always picky on who buys my kittens. I am always prepared to keep a kitten for life if I can't find the right home or them. I also do not over breed my Queens. There are breeders out there who breed each queen 2-3 times a year. That is wrong! My cats live in my house and are part of my family.

Here our humane society charges $200 for cat adoption. They also rarely have purebreds and those the do get in are usually elderly animals. Many people refuse to pay that when they can get a mixed breed off Craigslist for free or nearly free. 

Do your homework, don't get yourself over whelmed, write up a business plan, buy the best you can afford and start slow.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

BTW not all Persians are extreme faced. I breed doll face Persians that can breathe and do not have eye problems. Doll faces are the original Persian cats. The extreme faces really came into play in the 70's and 80's. I think it's wrong.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

KrisD said:


> BTW not all Persians are extreme faced. I breed doll face Persians that can breathe and do not have eye problems. Doll faces are the original Persian cats. The extreme faces really came into play in the 70's and 80's. I think it's wrong.


Yes, I have seen the "doll face" Persians too, and it's WORLDS different, much better for the cat, and more attractive IMO. Unfortunately, from what I am told, they cannot compete with the flat-faced Persians in shows. 

I think there need to be big changes to this, and it needs to come from the top down. Judges need to stop rewarding the extreme flat face and allow normal-faced cats to compete. The national breed club needs to put the pressure on, too. Show breeders need to stop breeding cats that cannot breathe. Doll face Persian breeders need to get out and SHOW their cats, even though they will not win at first. But they need to be seen, so that judges will have something other than extreme faces to choose from.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

KrisD said:


> buy the best you can afford


What if you can't afford the best?


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

If you can't afford the best then save your money until you can. My cats are PKD negative and I would never breed a cat that carried the gene. 

The only way at this point to get them to stop breeding the extreme faces is if the general public demands it. It is a lot of money to show cats and is very difficult if you are showing traditional doll faced and will never win. The public needs to start screaming to the breed club that they don't want this. There is no reason for them to breed this way except that people buy it. Several of us are talking about have a doll faced class in the show ring. If we can pull it off it will be wonderful.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I had a half Persian when I was a kid. Golly, was he beautiful. His face was more flat than my other cat, but he looked like a real cat. Yes, get those doll faced breeds out there. Such a nice cat, but I'd never have a cat or dog with a sever flat face. It is also in the show Bostons and I think it is a travesty to reward health problems in the ring.


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## gabbyraja (Feb 27, 2012)

Let me ask you Kris, what your expenses are? Why is it "expensive" to breed cats, so much that one would not make a profit? I know people spay or neuter, but not always. Also vaccinations, which you do not need a vet for... What else? Unless people refer to the upkeep of the breeding pair, etc, in which case I would do that anyway, as I ALWAYS have cats, until I'm dead, so I'll always have those expenses...


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

I agree - what are the expenses? 

I can imagine all the kittens are going to need vet checks and vaccinations. 

What if these purebreds were not registered with any breed registry? And then sold for a bit above rescue prices - like $150 - $200? 

The market, as I see it, isn't only one price point. There has got to be a demand for nice purebred cats towards the lower end of the price point. Trading away show backgrounds and breed registrations for a healthy purebred you can afford - why not?


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

cathleenc said:


> What if these purebreds were not registered with any breed registry? And then sold for a bit above rescue prices - like $150 - $200?
> 
> The market, as I see it, isn't only one price point. There has got to be a demand for nice purebred cats towards the lower end of the price point. Trading away show backgrounds and breed registrations for a healthy purebred you can afford - why not?


Why not? Because thousands and thousands of backyard breeders are doing that already. It's not needed. You can look in your local newspaper ads any day of the week and find cheap "purebred" cats.

My opinion is... you really need to SHOW your cats if you are going to breed and sell purebreds.

Why? Because there is really nothing else that can prove the quality of a cat, besides the health checks. We have no cat obedience trials, we do have agility trials now, but there is no temperament test, no "working" trials like we have for dogs.

When people buy a purebred cat, they are doing so because there is going to be something special about them besides just the way they look. Showing is like a temperament test. The show hall is not in any way "natural" to a cat, and many are prone to stress out and become nervous, upset, and sometimes aggressive. You might not ever know this about a cat that doesn't show, until you have to take her to a vet, or groomer, or any situation outside their comfort zone.

Top breeders travel all over the US with their cats, flying, driving, staying in different hotel rooms, going to different show halls. The cat that can take all of it in stride and be comfortable (and even ham it up at the show), are the cats that have the temperament we want as a pet.

In a way, they become more dog-like--more adaptable, more outgoing, less fearful, less prone to becoming stressed out in new situations. Essentially, the perfect housepet.

Along with this, however, comes a caveat: you really can't let these cats go outside to roam at will. Having a reduced fight-or-flight response, they cannot be expected to know that roads, stray dogs, and bad people can be dangerous. They do not have the same survival skills as your average random-bred barn cat. Most people who pay $1000 or more for a purebred cat understand this, and do not let their purebreds roam. 

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with "regular" cats--just that we don't need to be deliberately breeding them. They do just fine breeding on their own, without any human intervention, and I doubt there will be a shortage of them anytime soon. There will always be barn cats, our rodent control, and they make great pets too.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

KrisD said:


> I also work with other breeders who live out in the sticks. They breed sell the kittens to me inexpensively I socialize them and resell them.


 I hope you understand that by buying and reselling that puts you in the class of a Broker. a broker MUST be licensed and inspected by USDA to be lawful. and the breeders who sell to you MUST also be USDA licensed and inspected.
if either of you are not then please be very careful.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

krisd said:


> btw not all persians are extreme faced. I breed doll face persians that can breathe and do not have eye problems. Doll faces are the original persian cats. The extreme faces really came into play in the 70's and 80's. I think it's wrong.


love doll face.


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## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

Nothing should be bred at all other than real working animals and meat animals! No show animals, no pet animals, no money animals!! NO.
Unless you have a market for WORKING animals and have WORKING LINES, do not breed a darn thing! Meat animals will always have a market, but you need to be breeding for meat and not pet. 
Meat and Working animals will always be needed, but pets and show are not. Show is for money, for a hobby. If you want to better a working/meat animal, you need to breed for work ability and meat quality. Showing does nothing but get random people wanting to own it and breed it for $. Do not freak out on me that I "hate" show breeders, I don't hate them and I do know that some do have real working animals or meat animals. But without that direct connection, it's stupid and pointless. 
Cats were bred for companions, nothing more. I would choose a free shelter cat over any paid cat, period. 
Money needs to be used on FOOD, SHELTER, BILLS, MEDICAL CARE, EDUCATION. Not on hobbies or greed.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

I think there is a legitimate need for responsible backyard breeders, both cat and dog. 

I don't think that any animal should be irresponsibly breed, ever.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I have to disagree that you should show to breed cats. Like many dog breeds, many cat breeds are bred to be way extreme for the shows, they are NOT better pets than a less extreme, attractive purebred. I am quite sure I can pick out a cat that I like out of a non-show litter as easily as a show litter if I'm looking for a nice pet. 

Since cats bred for show have no other uses, why would they make a better pet than an animal bred to be a good pet? 

As for not breeding any pets, non working animals, that's just crazy. For all of the unwanted pets in the shelters, there are many MILLIONS that have good homes that want and care for them. Many of those homes, such as mine, want a nice purebred and aren't that concerned about show records. I want health testing for the major breed problems and I want to meet the mother and the puppy. I am not an idiot and I suspect most people that want a nice pet aren't idiots either.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

cathleenc said:


> I think there is a legitimate need for responsible backyard breeders, both cat and dog.


I'm sorry but "responsible backyard breeder" is an oxymoron.

There is absolutely NO need for backyard breeders--dogs and cats breed well enough on their own to create an enormous glut of pet animals. Why do you think the shelters and rescues are brimming with unwanted pets? And killing them every day to make room for the ones that will come in tomorrow?

I'm not against breeding, but it has to be responsible, ethical breeding. There is no such thing as an ethical backyard breeder, because those people are doing it for one reason: to make money. They don't love the breed, they don't do any kind of health or temperament testing, they don't care about breed quality, or where their puppies or kittens end up, and they won't take animals back if their buyers can't keep them.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Wolf Flower said:


> I'm sorry but "responsible backyard breeder" is an oxymoron.
> 
> There is absolutely NO need for backyard breeders--dogs and cats breed well enough on their own to create an enormous glut of pet animals. Why do you think the shelters and rescues are brimming with unwanted pets? And killing them every day to make room for the ones that will come in tomorrow?
> 
> I'm not against breeding, but it has to be responsible, ethical breeding. There is no such thing as an ethical backyard breeder, because those people are doing it for one reason: to make money. They don't love the breed, they don't do any kind of health or temperament testing, they don't care about breed quality, or where their puppies or kittens end up, and they won't take animals back if their buyers can't keep them.


I totally disagree. I know people that love their breeds and don't care about showing that could breed perfectly nice dogs for pets. Also, there is a huge segment of the population that doesn't want show bred dogs for their pets. Personally, I no longer care if my dog is show bred, but I do prefer a purebred. You make generalizations about a mythical group of "backyard breeders" which we have been propagandized to believe in. 

Yes, there are dogs in the pounds. Yes, some of those dogs are purebreds. Some of them were bred by "responsible" breeders with a contract stating that dog MUST come back to the breeder if they don't keep it. It doesn't always happen, nor will the shelter let the breeder, even with contract in hand, come and rescue their dogs to rehome them appropriately. 

The extreme prejudice against breeding purebred dogs as pets is one reason there are so many designer breeds and mutts out there. You cannot judge "backyard breeders" as a class to be the source of the unwanted pets, most of the dogs in the pound were abandoned by owners that didn't train, etc., not the breeders.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

GrannyCarol said:


> I have to disagree that you should show to breed cats. Like many dog breeds, many cat breeds are bred to be way extreme for the shows, they are NOT better pets than a less extreme, attractive purebred.


Like I was talking about with the Persians--things need to change, and if folks are finding that they can't compete in CFA or TICA with their doll face Persians, they should create their own organization so these cats can be shown and compete against each other on a level playing field.



> Since cats bred for show have no other uses, why would they make a better pet than an animal bred to be a good pet?


I already explained this. Showing is a temperament test. Most people don't want skittish, fearful, nervous, or aggressive cats in their household. Most people like laid-back, tolerant, playful yet non-aggressive housepets. I'm not saying those type of cats don't appear in random-bred generations, but showing a cat goes the extra mile to test temperament. A cat that can handle the travel, the show hall, the hustle and bustle and remain calm and not stress out, that is the temperament you want, and temperament is much more predictable from breeders that show their cats. 

Even in these show-bred generations, you will find individual cats that don't like to be shown, but it's in a show breeders' best interest to breed cats that are easy to work with and enjoy showing. You cannot win with a cat that is hissing and spitting and lashing out at the judge, and no one wants to see a cat stressed out and frightened.

Just for curiosity's sake, go to a cat show sometime and just observe. You'll see some cats that actually enjoy showing and really ham it up for the judge and the audience. You'll also see cats that don't enjoy it, and look stressed out. There is a huge range in temperaments, but when you see a cat that's totally relaxed, friendly, and playful on the judge's table, it's a wonderful sight. This is what all good breeders strive for, and it makes the cats better housepets.

And it's not that show/pet cats have NO uses. Purebreds will still catch mice, rats, and what have you (although flat-faced Persians aren't usually as good at it). It's been proven that petting a cat lowers blood pressure, and pets provide companionship and entertainment. This can be very positive, and especially useful for elderly people, shut-ins, and others who may not have much else in their lives.

I have purebred cats, I have barn cats, I have "regular" cats. I love them all, and I wish none of them ever had to be warehoused in shelters or euthanized because there aren't enough homes for them.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Wolf Flower said:


> I'm sorry but "responsible backyard breeder" is an oxymoron.
> 
> There is absolutely NO need for backyard breeders--dogs and cats breed well enough on their own to create an enormous glut of pet animals. Why do you think the shelters and rescues are brimming with unwanted pets? And killing them every day to make room for the ones that will come in tomorrow?
> 
> I'm not against breeding, but it has to be responsible, ethical breeding. There is no such thing as an ethical backyard breeder, because those people are doing it for one reason: to make money. They don't love the breed, they don't do any kind of health or temperament testing, they don't care about breed quality, or where their puppies or kittens end up, and they won't take animals back if their buyers can't keep them.


ITA with this. 

People who breed any animal that has not passed appropriate health testing for it's breed/species are NOT responsible.

People who breed any animal without aiming to improve upon the breed are NOT responsible.

People who breed any animal hoping to make a lot of money doing it are NOT responsible, because they're going to be willing to cut corners to make that profit.

It's not uncommon for me to lose thousands of dollars a year on my dogs... and I charge $2,800 per puppy. 

*Feeding quality food is expensive.
*Providing quality vet care is expensive.
*Performing health testing is expensive.
*Showing them is expensive.
*Importing semen from across the USA/Europe/Australia is expensive (the stud you have is NOT necessarily the best stud to use on your *****!).
*Paying vets to inseminate your dogs with the semen from the right dog is expensive.
*Even if you do natural breedings, paying to ship the stud to and from his home to yours and caring for him while he's in your house is expensive.

One of my pet peeves as a breeder is people who buy a stud and then ONLY use him for ALL their bitches, because he's handy and there's no stud fee to be paid :nono:. I have a male that I've only bred once, because only once was he a GOOD MATCH for a *****. I'm getting ready to breed him again after much thought and consideration because he's an excellent match for one of my bitches. 

For all my other litters I've imported semen from overseas or from across the country....because they were not a good match for my male. Breeding two dogs together just because they are the same breed doesn't make you a breeder IMO.

ETA: I know a few people who breed good quality health tested dogs who do NOT show. My Rottweiler comes from a breeder who does NOT do any conformation showing, but she uses CH studs from other kennels. His breeder gets CGC's on her dogs and does service work with them, but that's it. But she fully health tests all her dogs and they have awesome temperaments.... and she charges just a few hundred less than the big show breeders do.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

GrannyCarol said:


> I totally disagree. I know people that love their breeds and don't care about showing that could breed perfectly nice dogs for pets. Also, there is a huge segment of the population that doesn't want show bred dogs for their pets. Personally, I no longer care if my dog is show bred, but I do prefer a purebred.


If you're talking about dogs, that's a different matter--I don't think DOGS need to be shown in conformation, especially when the conformation that wins is counter to the dog's health and working ability. I do think that if you're breeding dogs, you need to do health testing before breeding, and if it's a working breed, it should participate in trials or real-life work to prove its ability (herding, hunting, obedience, etc), otherwise the breed traits disappear. This is why backyard breeders are ruining breeds--they do nothing to preserve the traits that the breed is supposed to have.



> The extreme prejudice against breeding purebred dogs as pets is one reason there are so many designer breeds and mutts out there.


I don't follow. There are "pet" dogs in every show or working bred litter... not every pup is destined to be a champion show or working dog, there are only a select few that go on to pass their genes to the next generation. We don't need backyard breeders breeding pets, ethical breeders will always have pet puppies available. It's a side product of breeding the best to the best.

But this thread is about cats, not dogs.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

Wolf Flower said:


> There is absolutely NO need for backyard breeders--dogs and cats breed well enough on their own to create an enormous glut of pet animals. Why do you think the shelters and rescues are brimming with unwanted pets? And killing them every day to make room for the ones that will come in tomorrow?


Not everywhere is this true. In Wisconsin a large portion of shelter and rescue dogs are transported from southern states as there is not enough dogs to go around. Almost impossible to find a puppy from a shelter or rescue. 

Cats, very true. Over abundance of shelter and rescue cats even in Wisconsin.

And I still believe that common pet owners are completely entitled to purchase reasonably priced healthy purebred animals. If the only place to get them is from responsible backyard breeders then by all means that is a good choice.

No one should be forced to decide between a pricey show dog and a rescue with unknown history with no other options. There has to be a middle and upper middle and lower middle option.

I certainly don't believe that it is the perogative of show breeders to tell the rest of the world what they need to buy. I also don't dispute their costs - but it's their decision to engage in a pet world with those costs. No is making them tread on the edge of losing money.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Going back to cats then... What fills the shelters with cats are innumerable feral cats irresponsibly reproducing themselves in my experience. They don't have breeders, they are hard to catch, my friend has to live trap them to get them out from under her house and send the kittens to the shelter, where they have a poor chance of being adopted out. The adults are too smart to trap and continue to reproduce in her neighborhood. Some she is able to catch, the most wary continue to breed. 

This is not a breeder problem, this is a pet owner problem, in that they have not (at some point) managed the reproduction of their pets and allowed them to stray. I contend that most shelter problems are animals that have been allowed to reproduce without any real control at all, usually through ignorance or a lack of funds to spay/neuter the original cats (or dogs). 

If a person has the money to buy a nice purebred pet, they have some incentive to control its reproduction and the means to do so. This obviously doesn't always happen, but seems more likely to happen than the one that gets a free kitten or puppy from where ever. 

Cats particularly are able to breed themselves quite fine and have feral populations that create real problems. More than "backyard breeders" of purebred kittens, putting resources towards capture, spay and neuter, as well as education for the people that get free kittens without knowing how to deal with spay/neuter and avoid unwanted kittens of their own, would be ideal. 

Certainly all of my cats, purebred, crosses and just random (from stray to CL finds) are spayed, neutered, spoiled, etc. I'm not interested in breeding anything for money personally, though I used to breed and show dogs (I know that whole thing very well). I agree that having a mid range source of purebred cats would be nice, it is entirely likely I'd buy one for a fun pet that was a little unusual. I really don't think that a pet breeder of purebred cats would have any particular reason to breed one with a poor temperament. I'm very aware that show breeders for dogs would forgive health and temperament problems to get the perfect breed type and I'm sure that cat breeders do too. I'm also aware that EVERY animal has genes for severe health problems, even if they are not expressed, and no one can breed a perfectly healthy, sound animal all the time. Not possible.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

I am NOT a broker. I have 2 friends that I occasionally help out by selling their cats. Sometimes certain colors either sell very well or don't sell at all. My expenses are as follows
Raw food for all the cats. Keeps the coats looking great and gives them a prey model diet which is healthier.

Vet expenses- all pet quality cats and kittens are spayed before they leave here. All kittens get a check up. 

I do my own vaccinations except rabies which isn't legal. Deworming 3 times a year if bring in my friend's cats. Twice a year if not. 

Frontline every month because we do have dogs that go out as well as a street cat. 

Cat litter- I only use either Worlds Best or Sweat Scoop. I prefer something that is better for the cats (less dusty and non scented), doesn't rape the land we live on, and is scoop able so all waste comes out of the box. I scoop 3 times a day so they never have to dig through waste to go to the bathroom. Do you have any idea how much litter you go through with 5 cats?

Gas- to the vet, the store for food and litter and to the airport for shipping.

Disease testing- I pull the samples myself but I still have to pay the lab. Say I buy a kitten for a new stud and that kitten is a PKD carrier. I now have to either pay the vet to euthanize it (has PKD) or neuter him and find find him a pet home (carrier). I also do yearly Feline Leukemia testing and vaccinations.
Also every once in a while somebody has a rough birth or looses a kitten and gets mastitis or what ever and then you have emergency vet costs. 

That said here are the ways I cut corners. 
My regular vet is 20 minutes from my house but they're pretty expensive. The vet I use for spays and rabies shots is 40 minutes away but she's less then half of the cat clinic prices. 
I pull all my own blood, pull all my own genetic tests and do my own fecals. Doing things yourself saves money. However I am a phlebotomist so pulling blood is nothing to me and it beats paying the vet a $15 per cat blood draw fee. 

I use coupons for cat litter when ever I can find them. I do all my own grooming. If they need a new cat tree or shelf I try and make it myself rather then paying Petco's prices. 

I do NOT agree with the statement that you have to show to improve the breed. The show people are the ones who decided to breed Persians to have extreme faces. That did not improve the breed! Yet I can't show because Traditional Faces are not part of the breed standard anymore. The show circuit has ruined the Persian breed. The Silvers and the Himis still have normal faces but the show breeders are trying to breed that out out to get more extreme looks. I do not think show people always breed to improve the breed they do it to win.


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

Please don't even get me started on Siamese, what was done to the breed by show breeders nauseates me, and you can't even find a decent old style apple head Siamese anymore, you know the ones that had brains and personality? I've considered breeding the old style Siamese, because I love them so much and there is a demand for them but have not for the following reasons- kittens have a high mortality rate, even the best breeders have URI problems from time to time, its unavoidable, I have no desire to show cats, couldn't anyway with the appleheads, and I can't stand the smell of cat urine, which is unavoidable with a Tom. I've done cat rescue in the past, so I've seen all the feline diseases that are out there, its not pretty, and some are nearly impossible to avoid. That said I bought our last few cats from breeders. My sons cat is a long leg Munchkin, from a FIV tested cattery, was spayed and had all her shots including rabies for $150. Short leg Munchkins are $900. She's well bred, beautiful and healthy, little wacky but thats luck of the draw. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another kitten like that, because a cat from the shelter, spayed vacc'd and not from a tested cattery would have cost me that much or more. I don't really think you could make much breeding cats and selling them for only $200 or $300, there's just too much overhead. That does not mean that there isn't a niche market for some breeds, like the Doll face Persians, and the Applehead Siamese.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

KrisD said:


> I do NOT agree with the statement that you have to show to improve the breed.


That's not exactly what I said. I said that showing is the only real way we have to temperament test cats. We don't have working or obedience or hunting trials like dog breeds do. We do have cat agility now and that's a start. 

I agree with what you said about the Persians, the show fancy has ruined that breed--however, that is not the fault of cat shows per se, but of the breeders and judges who strive for, and reward extremes.

But don't doll face Persian breeders have their own club, or organization? Why not hold shows of your own, so that you can compete against each other and preserve the original breed type? For every breed that cannot compete in CFA or TICA because they are not "extreme" enough, they should be holding their own shows, and lobbying to become their own breed or variety within the larger registries. I remember hearing somewhere that the Applehead Siamese people are doing that now.

Don't get me started on Munchkin cats, or any of the other breeds that have deformities deliberately bred into them. We already see a myriad of health problems with Persians who cannot see or breathe, do we really need to start shortening cats' legs so they have the same problems as Dachshunds and Basset Hounds?

See, I told you not to get me started!


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

So, since we're talking about a whole bunch of touchy subjects, why is okay for show dogs to routinely give birth via c-section? What is natural and healthy about that? I've always thought the ability to birth your offspring was a powerful method of natural selection.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

GrannyCarol said:


> Going back to cats then... What fills the shelters with cats are innumerable feral cats irresponsibly reproducing themselves in my experience.


That's exactly what I am saying. We DON'T need more backyard breeders breeding cats; cats do a fine job of breeding all by themselves.

But to preserve purebred cats: it should be done responsibly, ethically, and very very carefully. Not by backyard breeders, but by people who are really passionate about the breed, their health, temperament, and appearance. That includes showing, IMO, because it both tests the temperament of the cat and gives an outside opinion about the cat's breed quality. Both should be top-notch.

However, even the best breeders will always have "pet" quality kittens available, usually at a lower price, for pet buyers. Two of my Ocicats are only pet quality and cannot be shown, simply because their coats are not spotted. I got them all from top show breeders, and paid less for them than most backyard breeders would charge. In fact even my show quality cat was sold to me as a pet price because he could not be bred (retained testicles). The neat thing about CFA is that you can show spayed and neutered cats, and we did show Austin, even earning a few ribbons.

And having gone to a few cat shows, I can definitely say that anyone who shows and campaigns their cats must be an absolutely dedicated person, because it takes a lot of time, money, travel, and, well... if you're exhibiting a cat it can be very boring, because you can't really leave your cat unattended, and so you can't move around too much until your cat is called. So I have respect and admiration for the people who really go the extra mile, because it isn't easy.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

cathleenc said:


> So, since we're talking about a whole bunch of touchy subjects, why is okay for show dogs to routinely give birth via c-section? What is natural and healthy about that? I've always thought the ability to birth your offspring was a powerful method of natural selection.


You probably ought to start another thread for that, but it's been discussed before.


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## dbarjacres (Feb 2, 2004)

I'll throw myself into the mayhem here. I fully believe there is that middle market out there for well taken care of, healthy cats and dogs. First of all know all you can about your breed, be informed!!! Second, buy the best you can afford and really look at your new cat or dogs parents or siblings to pick out any issues and if you see anything, find a new breeder to work with.

If the breed is known for a certain disease or issue, test your breeding stock. Then only use clear ones. Keep up on your regular health care to keep your breeding stock healthy. Pay attention to them so you notice anything odd ASAP. 

Socialize the babies as much as possible and of course feed top quality. Not puppy chow but actual food made of meat with no common allergy ingredients!!!!! Or raw if thats your desired route. Don't breed your females every time in season.

Ive bought dogs from show kennels before. My cavalier Tanner came from a show kennel at 9 mos where he was crated 20+ hrs a day, never felt grass under his feet, never went up or down stairs or in a car but once. He immediately flopped on his back submissevly when I met him. Is that better than a person who may have a pet ***** or queen they breed once a year and love as a pet and socialize their babies? My 4 yo mini aussie female I got last year as a spayed breeder placement has some real issues due to lack of socialization too. And she was a retired show dog!

I bought my mini aussie pup from a show breeder and found out he missed getting parvo by a month when his breeder brought it home from a show and lost a bunch of pups. 

We raised German shepherds for about 7 years. One stud and 2-3 bitches. We took care of them like I mentioned above. We sold our pups for $400 and always had all reserved or sold by 10 weeks. Our first pups would be about 13 this year. We've had a lot of calls the last few years from buyers looking for pups to fill the footsteps of their aging loved GSDs. We've never had a complaint on a pup or someone fill their two yr health guarantee. 

If you do it right and price modestly for most families to afford there isn't any reason you can't make a bit of money. All our pups were also vet checked and came with written guarantee and healthy tips sheet and a puppy pack.

If you want to know why we stopped raising GSDs, I honestly got tired of dealing with buyers and as I'm a male dog person the necessary breeding bitches really got tiring.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

KrisD said:


> I am NOT a broker. .


I am not saying that you do this often. but EVEN ONCE will put you in the class of a *broker by law*. 
you can sell your *own* directly to the buyer and not have to be USDA but to sell any other's kittens can get you into a world of trouble if you are not.

so be careful if you sell anyone's kittens.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

dbarjacres said:


> I fully believe there is that middle market out there for well taken care of, healthy cats and dogs.


Yes, and it can be fulfilled by responsible, ethical breeders, who show, work, and test their stock. Not all their offspring are going to be show winners, and those are the ones that go to "pet" homes. Pets should come from good breeders, not the backyard variety. Both will have pet-quality animals, but one will have tested the health, temperament, and ability of its breeding stock, gone the extra mile to show, trial, work, etc., and is knowledgable and experienced in the breed. The other will have done nothing but put a pet-quality male and female together in the backyard.

I'm not saying winning conformation shows is the be-all, end-all of breeding. It shouldn't be. Conformation is just one piece of the puzzle, and not the most important one IMO. But the animals should be tested before being bred, and I mean that in all senses of the word.


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## dbarjacres (Feb 2, 2004)

I do not believe all show breeders are ethical. Some are in it for the glory and the money. You can't deny nobody makes money.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I know an awful lot of dog show breeders, they aren't any different from pet breeders - some are good, some are really rotten apples. I thought I was a good one, but perspective shows me that my puppies suffered from less socialization than was ideal (even though my adults handled the show stress, traveling, etc) and I did not always have the temperament I thought I did. Showing didn't give me better puppies. If I had better puppies for pets than someone else, it was because I cared, not because I showed. Many many breeds of both cats and dogs have breeders that are passionate that do not show and I suspect the breeds are better for it. 

I've been involved in all aspects - hobby breeder that showed and finished dogs, dog breeder that exhibited heavily and won top honors and pet owner. I don't show and would not show even if I wanted to breed. I learned a lot about dogs showing, but can't say that I was a better breeder when I was winning than any other time.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

in dogs there are 3 types of show people. I am sure cat show breeder types are very similar 

type 1. that does it to say "mine is better then yours" this kind rarely breeds. and is proud to tell you how few times that they do. like it is a badge of honor. they do all the tests know to man. have an alphabet before and after the dog (like that makes the dogs genes better)and will bash anyone who doesn't do it the way they think it should be (unless it is themselves doing it) many times they are active in breed rescue so they can pat themselves on the back. but when it comes right down to it they know far less then the regular average breeder when it comes to true breeding.

type 2 they breed and want to charge more for their pups cuz it is ch sired.
may times you get a better dog from these then breeder type 1 because breeder type 2 has knowledge about whelping and far less kennel blind.

type 3 is first a breeder and wants to improve their knowledge and eye for the breed.they test what is NEEDED and reliable. not any and all tests available to say "lookie lookie what my dog passed".
many don't really like showing but does so, so that they don't become kennel blind. to them showing is a tool to learn. their most likely aren't out every weekend, maybe only once or twice a year or less. you rarely see them with top ranking dogs because they are not type 1. though many times you can get a better pup then from the type 1 because type 3 actively breeds. and at a better price then type 2 because it isn't all the about the money. these are the ones that truly help the breed. the true breeders.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

dbarjacres said:


> I do not believe all show breeders are ethical. Some are in it for the glory and the money. You can't deny nobody makes money.


No, not all show breeders are ethical. 

I think people get wrapped up in their own egos more than anything; some show breeders want to WIN and will attempt to do so at all costs, even if it's not good for the dogs. There are people like that everywhere you go. Just because you show dogs doesn't automatically mean you're ethical. There are politics and corruption in the show dog world just like there are politics and corruption everywhere.

Having said that, there are a lot of breeders who show simply because it's part of what you do to maintain breed quality, and they are passionate about their chosen breed. And there are many who simply love showing dogs.

I personally don't show in AKC conformation because my breed, the German Shepherd, is one of those breeds that AKC show breeders and judges have ruined, and the modern AKC show line no longer resembles what the breed is supposed to be. If I were a breeder, I'd be showing my GSDs under the German style show, which fortunately has gained a foothold in the USA.

Actually I did show a puppy in AKC conformation once. I just wanted to do it because I'd never done it; I didn't expect to win or anything. I am glad I did it, but wouldn't do it again with a GSD. 

As for money, don't think anybody makes a profit showing dogs. Unless they have a very large breeding operation or are cutting a lot of corners, the profit margin in pet breeding is extremely narrow once you factor in all the costs involved. Even puppy mills, which are engineered to make a profit, walk a razor-thin profit margin. So I don't think money is the motivating factor with show breeders, even the corrupt ones just want to WIN and get their ego stroked.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

secuono said:


> Nothing should be bred at all other than real working animals and meat animals! No show animals, no pet animals, no money animals!! NO.
> Unless you have a market for WORKING animals and have WORKING LINES, do not breed a darn thing! Meat animals will always have a market, but you need to be breeding for meat and not pet.
> Meat and Working animals will always be needed, but pets and show are not. Show is for money, for a hobby. If you want to better a working/meat animal, you need to breed for work ability and meat quality. Showing does nothing but get random people wanting to own it and breed it for $. Do not freak out on me that I "hate" show breeders, I don't hate them and I do know that some do have real working animals or meat animals. But without that direct connection, it's stupid and pointless.
> Cats were bred for companions, nothing more. I would choose a free shelter cat over any paid cat, period.
> Money needs to be used on FOOD, SHELTER, BILLS, MEDICAL CARE, EDUCATION. Not on hobbies or greed.


Yeah, okay. Sure. LOL

Gabby asked what the expenses are with breeding over just owning.

Well, let's break it down.

Let's say you want a bengal. You can spend $250 (what an occasional mismarked kitten will go for... a typical pet will be $400, or it was five years ago... I think I've been seeing $600 now but don't quote me there)). That kitten should come to you with one set of vaccines, but likely will come with two. He/she will come with an alteration agreement, let's say that costs you $200. So you've got a minimum of $450 in it apart from the "stuff" you'd need either way (carrier, food, etc).

Or, buy a queen kitten. A middle of the road girl will run about $1500. Top of the line... double that or more.

Now, you have an intact cat living in your house,w ill all the behaviors. They scratch on inapprpriate items more. They yowl when in heat. Conversely, the pet kitten is pretty docile and doesn't scream for days on end. 

Pet kitten is toodling along, doing fine. Queen kitten has her uterus and it gets infected, ie pyometra. Oops, spay her. Start over!

So you spend another $1500 on a new queen. Get this one to maturity. Assume you don't show. Go back to her breeder for a stud service, which will run you $1000. Few breeders, and none I have seen with a good stud, will go for pick of the litter from your average queen, so let's not even entertain that.

She gets pregnant. 63 days pass, she goes into labor, and after 24 hours she's straining and still, nothing. Take her in for an xray to find out she has a alrge dead kitten holding up the works. C-section, $800. 

You have three surviving kittens. Let us be generous and say one is a relatively nice baby with potential. You may keep her to have a second queen, or sell her. You, mind, have no "name" made for yourself, so she won't sell for as much as you bougth her mama. 1K if you are lucky.

Oh yeah, you're rolling in the dough.

Let's say mama births just fine and raises her litter of four exceedingly well. You will spend hours vetting potential homes, turn down a few, and a few yopu love just won't find their kitten in your litter this time. General kitten care, figure on someone geting a nasty cold.... you're out $500 there, easily.

Seriously, how on EARTH do you think people make money with this? *If* you have top of the line cats, and *if* you have sources that will help get your name out/you've been doing this for a decade, and *if* you don't have a queen up and die on you and leave you with a basket of prhans... cripes. Come on.

I haven't even touched on vet bills from an intact cat fight, the costs if you have someone get really sick, the cost of purchasing and maintaining your own stud, the cost of premium food and supplies for a litter, the gas you use to and fromt he vet all the time, the advertising costs, your precious time spent talking to utter fools, the dmage a stud/intact queen can and will do to your home...

Get a job.


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## gabbyraja (Feb 27, 2012)

Well, I agree you'd spend a lot of time talking to fools, but I do that a lot already.

I guess let's ask that question again. I buy a pair of Himalayan kittens for $400/ea (going rate in my area) to be my beloved pets, but with an eye for the possibility of breeding them someday, in case I decide to do so. We don't count the cost of purchase, because they were going to be my pets anyway. So, so far breeding has cost me nothing. 

I feed them raw (not expensive), groom them myself, care for them holistically, do my own testing and blood draws, have no spay/neuter costs, of course. Train them not to scratch my furniture (I've never declawed a cat, and never lost a piece of furniture over it. You know you can train them not to scratch your furniture, right?). So, so far I have nothing into my cats for breeding that I wouldn't have into them for being pets, and barring some weird mystery illness or injury (which I've NEVER had in 30 years of pet cats), no real vet fees.

Now I decide to breed them. Because I'm a Holistic Breeder I've chosen a breed or a line that births easily. I am unlikely to need vet assistance, but I have a few hundred dollars in the emergency fund, jic. Litter of 3-5 kittens is born. Because I don't know the death/deformity rate of pure breeds, though assume it's likely to be higher simply because they are pure-breeds, I'll assume 3 live. I'll do any vaccinating and testing I deem necessary myself. So I'll have, what, $100 into vax and testing, max? If I were to spay/neuter before they left, rather than send them with a contract, I can see that I'd have about $100/kitten invested in just that.

This is where I'm having trouble figuring out what the costs are. Obviously if you are showing I see there being costs. Otherwise... I see about $40/each and send them with a spay/neuter contract. This is a profit of $360/ea, or $1080. And breeding maybe 3 times in 2 years, that's over $1500/yr. And as I said before, if you have unforeseen medical issues, or are showing, obviously there are higher costs.

So, what am I missing? Honest question, not snarky question.


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## J.T.M. (Mar 2, 2008)

I might start breeding cats ... With the economy heading the way its heading how can you afford not to :shrug:


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

gabbyraja said:


> I guess let's ask that question again. I buy a pair of Himalayan kittens for $400/ea (going rate in my area) to be my beloved pets, but with an eye for the possibility of breeding them someday, in case I decide to do so. We don't count the cost of purchase, because they were going to be my pets anyway. So, so far breeding has cost me nothing.


Show-quality Himalayans will cost you more than $400, and it makes no sense to buy lesser quality than that. Himalayans, thankfully, are not suffering from the flat face to the degree that Persians are, so you should be able to find show-quality cats that have a moderate face and can breathe normally. 

If you don't show and only have the intent to breed your cats, you may have a hard time getting a reputable breeder to sell to you. And believe me, you don't want to work with another backyard breeder.



> Now I decide to breed them. Because I'm a Holistic Breeder I've chosen a breed or a line that births easily. I am unlikely to need vet assistance,


If only we all had a crystal ball and would know we will never need vet assistance! You're assuming everything goes off without a hitch, perfectly according to plan. Sure, if you never have any problems, your costs won't be as high. But the fact is, you will be facing veterinary costs at some point. Cats get sick and injured, kittens get sick, etc. 

You also need to do all the health testing which gets expensive, even doing your own blood draws. And if you are ethical, you will spay and neuter your kittens before selling. That gets really expensive.

Have you ever owned an intact tomcat? That right there should dissuade you. You have no idea how badly it smells when an intact tom is spraying all over the place--and once it starts, it's almost impossible to stop, even after neutering. Many breeders have "Stud enclosures" outside where they keep their toms, for this very reason.


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## gabbyraja (Feb 27, 2012)

Yes, unfortunately I had a male that was apparently neutered too late. It was horrible, and I don't think I would have him indoors. But, for the sake of the conversation, my scenario was simplistic, with him being my pet. Not even sure I would choose Himalayan, though they are my current favorites. I've not had experience with a ton of pure breeds, though. I would have to do a LOT more research if I were to ever seriously consider anything. Right now, I'm just talking and thinking out loud.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

[[[[......So, what am I missing? Honest question, not snarky question......]]]]

This is not a snarky answer. This is the truth, and you did ask.

I think you will be amazed at how difficult it is to find buyers who will pay $400 for a kitten from a breeder with absolutely no reputation and very little knowledge of the breed.

Just because you see ads for $400 kittens and just because you paid $400 yourself does not mean that you have a dozen buyers all eager t pay $400 for a cat living close to you, needing a kitten just as you have them for sale. The newspaper is chock full of free cats. What motivation does anyone have to give you $400 for a kitten?

If you insist upon only selling to good homes where the cat will get proper care, then you have cut your buyer pool down substantially. Even fewer good buyers out there.

Once your kittens are past that adorable baby stage, they become even more difficult to sell. Most people buying a costly cat want a bitty kitten to raise just like they want. They don't want a juvenile. They can go down to the pound and get a purebred cat for whatever the pound charges, which in my area is about $30, which includes all the spay and shots.

Purebred adult cats are free on Craigslist. So what is the cat buyer's motivation to give you $400 for a kitten? I know why some will pay big money to a devoted fancier who has quality cats, but you? What are you offering that is worth money?

Incidentally, I didn't notice any $ for health screening and genetic testing of your breeders. That adds up to quite a bit of money.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

What you seem to be missing WRT to the scratching is that intact cats are *different* from neutered ones, at least when they are in heat. They are not petlike when their hormones are going. My own gentle babysitter of a tomcat turned into an animal I could not touch when a stray tom came up on my front porch and sprayed the front door. I had to push his screaming, raging self into the bathroom with a broom. 

I will say that I chose a gentle tom whose father never sprayed once in his life, so he wasn't an issue (my young stud, mind...). The queens are what drives people up a wall. Have you ever heard a cat in heat? Days and days of yowling and calling. You often cannot hear anything else over it. And no, she won't stop just becuse it's time for the family to go to bed. 

You also will not be able to buy a kitten from a reputable breeder without a spay/neueter contract, which is why the price difference. I do not understand why you would not buy the best you can afford if you are breeding. You will also be turning down buyers if you screen at all, which means you will have the occasional baby hanging around until four months instead of three, or perhaps longer. The expenses of feeding him/her are not to be dismissed, lol.


Within my registry, the acceptable death rate for kittens (including stillborns) is 30%. That's sort of the line for "More than this is not normal, and you need to figure out what's going wrong". It held true for me, and yes, there was a freak accident involving a handsome little male and a fall out a bathroom cabinet. He waas playing with his sister up there and fell. Stillbirths, unthrifty babies, accidents.... waving some burning sage over them doesn't prevent that. I did as much as I could naturally and holistically, but when our queen is screaming and contracting, unable to pass a large dead kitten, what are you going to do? When she abandons her newborns, the costs of formula and your time...

If you are hungering for babies, I suggest fostering a pregnant cat from your shelter. If you love X breed and want to work with it, go find a reputable breeder and buy the best you can. If you are just looking for money.... pets aren't the way to do it. It makes neither financial nor ethical sense. 

I quit breeding when I had my son and knew I could no longer risk having a litter that needed bottlefed, or a slow/difficult labor that qould require constant monitoring. The time commitment is large.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

oregon woodsmok said:


> Purebred adult cats are free on Craigslist. So what is the cat buyer's motivation to give you $400 for a kitten? I know why some will pay big money to a devoted fancier who has quality cats, but you? What are you offering that is worth money?


Exactly.

Some say I am crazy, and they might be right, but I will pay a devoted and reputable breeder big bucks for a purebred kitten. 

Just for the sake of argument, let's say you discover that Ocicats are your breed. You somehow get your hands on a couple of kittens without a spay/neuter agreement. You probably had to buy them from a less-than-reputable breeder, since most reputable breeders will not sell intact kittens to people they don't know. So they may not be top quality, but you figure you'll start with less than the best, and "breed up".

Now, since Ocicats are my breed, let's say I'm looking to buy a nice spotted kitten, and I start asking around to see who has litters. A spotted kitten will run upwards of $1000. Sounds like a lot of money, and it is, especially for someone like me who has to save up for such things. Let's say breeder A, a reputable show breeder, has a nice spotted kitten that isn't quite show quality, so she is willing to part with him for $1000. You also have a spotted kitten that isn't quite show quality, and you are asking $800.

Now, who am I going to give my hard-earned money to? Certainly not you, even with a discount. Not trying to be snarky, I'm being honest here--if I'm spending that much money, I want a healthy, quality animal that has a nice temperament as well as being beautiful to look at, has a health guarantee, and both parents have been shown and handled the travel and the show hall well.

And ethically, I want to support the people that have made it their life's ambition to breed healthy, quality cats, do not take shortcuts, and genuinely care about the breed... rather than some random person who bought two pet quality cats because they wanted to line their pockets with kitten money twice a year.

If you honestly want to get into breeding cats, why NOT do it the best way possible? Rather than settling for the mediocre in an attempt to make a quick buck, why not go all the way and do it right?

First, you have to research your butt off for your chosen breed. Go to cat shows, meet and talk to people. Join breed forums or groups on the internet. While you're doing this, don't say ANYTHING about wanting to breed, or you'll be met with the cold shoulder by pretty much everyone. Just listen, learn, ask questions, listen, take note of the conversations that take place. Ask for recommendations on books and other reading material. Listen, study, research. This may take years.

If you are lucky, you may find that you get along well with certain breeders, and they may be willing to mentor you, and trust you enough to sell you a top show quality kitten, with the stipulation that you actually SHOW the cat. They may want to co-own the cat with you, which is a reasonable thing to ask, and they may want to make all the breeding decisions. This is actually the ideal way to get into breeding cats, IMO. 

In fact, if you develop a close working relationship with a top breeder, they may "farm out" breeding queens to you. Breeders can only keep so many cats, but when that special one comes along that they cannot bear to part with, it can be extremely helpful for them to have a trusted protege to raise, show, and keep the cat, and raise her kittens. Heck, you may not even have to show--perhaps the breeder will campaign all her cats, then when a queen's championship is finished, she can go to you to raise her litters.

Bear in mind that, even doing things the right way with the support of a top breeder, it still won't be profitable in a monetary sense. Unless you are selling kittens for three times as much as everyone else.


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## TNnative (May 23, 2004)

jen74145 said:


> I bred bengals for a time.


Slight sidetrack here - 

I remember when you posted pictures of some of your cats, they were beautiful. Do you ever hear from any of their current owners?


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Jessica when our ready come talk to me. I'll work with you and teach you the ropes and how to do things the right way. You need PKD free cats but once the parents are tested the babies don't have to be so only buy from PKD negative breeders. It's a cheek swab to test for it and you send it your self to UC Davis. 
Yes I've had to go in and pull a large kitten here or there but I have to do that with my goats too. Both TICA and CFA have a mentor program but it's not too active. Pm me when you've given this some serious thought.


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## gabbyraja (Feb 27, 2012)

Thanks Kris! I very much appreciate the offer of help.

I'm not really sure I want to do it at all. Dh would be very resistant to ever having a tom again, for instance, or to having the inevitable "I just need to keep one kitten from this litter", lol. 

In my original post I really was just thinking, "hmmm, you can make money at something I would love to do anyway?" Not, "How can I make easy money in something I don't really give a crap about?" Loving to do something, then looking for a way to make money doing it is the way that people who are truly happy in their work do it. 

When I was a kid we had 2 intact tabbys; my original cat and one daughter that we kept. Just plain old outside "barn"-type cats, and we had 2 litters/year for probably 4 years, that we gave away to anyone that would take them. Finally we had enough money to get them fixed. But I was a kid. I didn't care about all that. I LOVED my cats and was THRILLED every time they were having babies. Every bit about it was wonderful! Never had a problem with a kitty (except losing most of one litter to opossums), and it was the happiest part of my childhood. So, I never said I was going to breed cats, just trying to get my head around what all is involved and how to do it right, in case it might be something I want to mull over for the future. 

I DO hate the term "back yard breeder." It's condescending and offensive, as though you are only of any worth if you go commercial with it. Plus, anyone that knows even the basics about genetics knows that mixing breeds/races is how the individuals become stronger, not by nearly or literally inbreeding and line breeding for endless generations because the gene pool is too small to do anything else. Hemophilia, sickle cell anemia, and even lactose intolerance are proof of this in humans, never mind the myriad of dysplasias and optical problems, etc, among "obviously superior _pure breed_ dogs." Superiority is in the eye of the beholder.

Now, since I said I will not be breeding any pet in any foreseeable future, hopefully no one else will come to tell me that what I'm doing is wrong and stupid...being that I'm actually NOT doing it. I've gotten what I needed from this thread. Thank you all for your opinions! :goodjob:


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I understand doing something you love and where you are coming from. 

One point though that you might want to think about is that it is not entirely true that crossbreds or mutts are necessarily healthier than purebreds. I found in dogs that most mutt owners don't have a clue if their dog was healthy or not and didn't test to find out unless there was a severe problem. As a breeder I would keep dogs out of the gene pool for things that a pet owner would never even notice. 

For example, hip dysplasia. When I started showing and breeding English Setters, we didn't know if any of them even had hip dysplasia, unless they were overtly quite lame. Many hunting dogs would hunt and be a bit sore the next day and no one knew if they were or were not dysplastic. When it became commonplace to x-ray for hips, we found our breed had a lot of dysplastic individuals that were never lame or only rarely a bit sore. Through testing, OFA, and careful breeding the incident of hip dysplasia is greatly reduced, it is uncommon to get dysplastic puppies in well bred English Setters. Most of the dogs that were not bred on the basis of hip x-rays were fine healthy pets and would not have been x-rayed as a pet and no one would have known they had a problem. 

I've groomed dogs for 40 years and seen a lot of dogs come through my hands. The large majority of them, either pure or mixed, had obvious genetic faults and unsoundnesses. I noticed tons of bad stifles, weak hocks, heart murmurs, trachea problems - and I was not giving any sort of vet exam, it was just obvious when I was handling them. Their owners had no idea, because it wasn't a big issue for a small pet. 

Also, if you are breeding purebred dog A to purebred dog B and they are different breeds... what happens to the genes from dog A and dog B that are objectionable? Do they go away when you outcross? No. I have outcrossed within a breed before, I got widely variable type and widely variable health - everything from OFA excellent hips to so dysplastic that the poor puppy had to be put down. BTW, both parents were OFA. I did an outcross between two individuals that were excellant specimens of their breed and 10 out of the 11 puppies were undershot! Neither of the parents came from lines with bite problems, nor did they have a problem themselves, but the lines didn't cross well. 

The value of linebreeding is that you get predictable type and you learn how to avoid the health problems that will crop up in ANY breeding. If you totally outcross, you could add hip dysplasia from one breed to weepy eyes in the other breed and have BOTH instead of one. 

It's just not as simple as people say it is and it takes decades of experience to learn that. That said, I have no objection to someone learning to breed that loves their animals and is willing to put in the work and time to learn.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

gabbyraja said:


> I DO hate the term "back yard breeder." It's condescending and offensive, as though you are only of any worth if you go commercial with it.


Whoa whoa whoa! How in the world did you come up with the word "commercial"? The last thing anyone wants to see is a cat breeder going "commerical", that's like a kitten mill. It concerns me that with all the time we've spent talking about ethical and responsible breeding, the word you come up with is "commercial" to describe the opposite of backyard breeding.

Please read the thread again, tell us where you found the word "commercial", and explain how you got the idea that "commercial" breeding is something good?

If you find the term "backyard breeder" offensive, don't be one.



> Plus, anyone that knows even the basics about genetics knows that mixing breeds/races is how the individuals become stronger, not by nearly or literally inbreeding and line breeding for endless generations because the gene pool is too small to do anything else.


It may comfort you to know that, in some breeds, outcrossing is allowed. Ocicats, Sphynx, and other breeds have certain other breeds they can cross to in order to improve the line.

But in order to breed healthy cats, it's more about health testing to eliminate bad genes than it is about outcrossing. Well-bred purebreds can be as healthy as random-bred cats for this very reason, excluding breeds that are bred for unhealthy extremes like Persians. 

You have a lot of study ahead of you. Not only in researching your breed, but the study of basic genetics as well. I pray that if you decide to go ahead with this, you realize why it's important to do things the right way, without cutting corners, and breed the best cats you possibly can. There is no benefit to do anything less--there are already thousands and thousands of backyard breeders doing that, you want to set yourself apart from them.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Gabbyraja, I too, adore kittens, and raising them. I manage to raise at least one litter every year.
LOL, one year, I raised 17 kittens with every female cat I own spayed!

I either foster for the pound, or some pregnant stray finds me. I get my kitten fix, and good karma to boot. 

I also usually get my costs back, which are low. Shots and worming. They go already spayed when I live where there is a low-cost clinic, but sadly, I can't manage that here.

We've had some heartbreaks. The cat that miscarried snuggled up in my lap. The foolish mother who wouldn't stop moving her single kitten, and finally put it somewhere disaster struck. The litter we lost to insane, crazy fleas, in spite of Frontline and baths and endless flea-combing and bedding changes and borax and you name it.

But overall, things usually go easily and well, and I am satisfied that kittens who would have had short, brutal lives - assuming they were born at all, if their mothers hadn't been PTS for being pregnant - had the best start I could give them and the best homes I could find them. And the mother cats also get the best care I can, spayed and found a good home.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

[[[[........Loving to do something, then looking for a way to make money doing it is the way that people who are truly happy in their work do it. .....]]]]]

If you love cats and want to make money with them, make useful items for cats like kitty beds or scratching posts, or decorated items with cats on them. Sell them to other cat lovers.

Or, as suggested, foster kittens for the humane society to get your kitten fix.

Or, even better, if you want lots of baby animals, raise something that people eat like cute baby chicks or sheep. Something that will end up as a roast and not end up clogging the animal shelter with unwanted animals that will end up put to sleep because there aren't enough available homes for them.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

while i agree that there isn't real that much money to be made and none if you count your time and tears.
I must say that i believe that there is enough good homes for adoptable healthy cats. the clogging is due to counting ferals and the price shelter are now charging. BUT i don't feel that many will pay the high price on a kitten for the breeder to even break even.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

Plus, anyone that knows even the basics about genetics knows that mixing breeds/races is how the individuals become stronger, not by nearly or literally inbreeding and line breeding for endless generations because the gene pool is too small to do anything else. 


Ack. This holds true somewhat. But you still cannot breed crap to crap and expect solid gold. 

SOme breeds have plenty of genetic diversity that outcrossing is just irresponsible. I raised bengals, so you can start from scratch at any time. Get an ALC, breed her, breed her daughters and granddaughters.... oh look, new line of bengals. But I also love sheltie dogs... which means I love shelties and want to see more nice, solid shelties. I do not want to see sheltie-poos, or shiweenies, or any of that haphazard grab bag. I hope, someday, to be able to raise a few litters. I want nice, strong, sound little dogs who can shine wheerever they are. I've owned a great one, a headcase, and a little dude who I adored but just up and died at a year old, likely from an undiagnosed heart condition. I never, ever want that to happen to anyone.

Do shelties have issues/looks I despise? Yes. But the answer is not to cross in a corgi, it's to be a bit harder with your choices. For most breeds, the quality is there, you just have to take time to learn different lines and learn who complements who, and which animals should be altered and allowed to just be someone's pet.


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