# Howdy y'all, caliber talk



## RenoHuskerDu (May 26, 2011)

New to the forum, I'm not. But back after a long absence, I am. We last used the forum whilst living in France, now we're in TX. Every gun I owned in France was registered. So they can just come and take it when they want. All the Demon grabbers in Washington would love to impose that here.

Anyway, thought I'd post and share my thoughts on calibers. In general, my idea is to restrict the calibers we have to commonly available ones. That way costs are low and they can be bartered like currency after the grid goes down. Every homesteader should have at least 5 types of weapons: air, 22lr, handgun, shotgun and scoped centerfire rifle.

We've settled on the following calibers.
Gamo and Diana pellet in 17 and 22
22lr in short and long guns, scoped or open
223 with and without optics
9mm handguns
308 scoped rifles

All of these are very common, ammo is reasonably priced, and the ammo will be as good as money once TEOTWAWKI comes. Don't get me wrong, I'm very fond of other calibers. But if I were to own them, I'd probably trade them away to get back into our core caliber holdings. A big caliber might be an exception, something that can disable a vehicle at 1000 yds might someday be useful. Barrett or 338 Lapua, that kind of thing. But they are very expensive so I'm not rushing to purchase one now.

What do you think?


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

It sounds like your ideas should work for your anticipated needs. All said and done, we could chase this rabbit all over the place and never reach a consensus on the subject. It works for you so that is the way to go.


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## RenoHuskerDu (May 26, 2011)

Yep, I bet many have alternates they prefer. I really love the entire extended 308 family, for example (https://www.chuckhawks.com/08_family_cartridges.htm ). Even the 6.5 Creedmore is a 308 derivative. But the main idea is to avoid having a proliferation of calibers, such that finding ammo is expensive and difficult once things get worse.

223 and 308 can also be Ackley'd if you're that kind of guy.

We should have a thread about how much ammo to stock too, lol, nobody would agree!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

12g/22lr/45/556/270
All I'll need and all I want.

If people need more guns or ammo during TEOTWAWKI, it is likely they'll just listen for the sound of the nearest gunfire.


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## crehberg (Mar 16, 2008)

GTX63 said:


> 12g/22lr/45/556/270
> All I'll need and all I want.
> 
> If people need more guns or ammo during TEOTWAWKI, it is likely they'll just listen for the sound of the nearest gunfire.


I truly believe in the end using a firearm in a SHTF scenario is not a good situation. You only draw attention to yourself. Yes, firearms are important...but only as the last line of defense.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I guess I am thinking a little less TEOTWAWKOI

still good choices to keep stocking simple and will handle all but very specialized tasks 

not to far from what I stock. I have others but those are certainly the most common.

will everyone in your house be 12ga or will you have some 20ga I don't see any point in going smaller than 20ga unless you have very small people I don't even see the need for 20ga. too often the 20 is lighter weight and a 12 in a heavier gun really isn't much more recoil.

try CCI quite rounds for your 22lr from a longer barrel bolt action they make less noise than a car door closing but take small game with good shot placement at 25 yards.

game will more than likely be caught with traps and dispatched with a hammer or knife should there be a need to catch game quietly.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

crehberg said:


> I truly believe in the end using a firearm in a SHTF scenario is not a good situation.


If you need to use a firearm, it's already "not a good situation".
Guess whose store *wasn't* destroyed during the 1992 Rodney King riots:


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## oceantoad (May 21, 2009)

RenoHuskerDu said:


> New to the forum, I'm not. But back after a long absence, I am. We last used the forum whilst living in France, now we're in TX. Every gun I owned in France was registered. So they can just come and take it when they want. All the Demon grabbers in Washington would love to impose that here.
> 
> Anyway, thought I'd post and share my thoughts on calibers. In general, my idea is to restrict the calibers we have to commonly available ones. That way costs are low and they can be bartered like currency after the grid goes down. Every homesteader should have at least 5 types of weapons: air, 22lr, handgun, shotgun and scoped centerfire rifle.
> 
> ...


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## oceantoad (May 21, 2009)

RenoHuskerDu,
Good choices, but can't break away from revolvers, I am an old guy.
In the same area, Lampasas county.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> try CCI quite rounds for your 22lr from a longer barrel bolt action they make less noise than a car door closing but take small game with good shot placement at 25 yards.
> game will more than likely be caught with traps and dispatched with a hammer or knife should there be a need to catch game quietly.


Just for the sake of discussion-during the event of even a partial breakdown of society, hunting seasons will go by the wayside.
You'll likely see a spiral down in the numbers of deer and other game as the hungry will just shoot everything on site day and night. Then it becomes a numbers game, the attrition of man and beast, as to what will outlast whom.

22LR with a homemade suppressor, a good crossbow, and yes, traps, would be all I would really want for hunting.
The other calibers would only be dispensed for social work.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

I have a variety of firearms and calibers in my gun safe and find each appropriate for specific situations. A friend laughed at the fact that I still have the Benjamin .22 pellet and .177 Crosmam BB and pellet air rifles and Crosman .177 spring loaded 1911 style BB gun I got as a kid in my collection and continue to maintain the seals and normal smith maintenance and store BBs and pellets in my ammunition supply.

I explained to him that the Benjamin and Crosmam rifles often are adequate for single shot small game use and the spring powered .177 pistol is good for a 15 yard slap on the butt with no lethality drive away of stray dogs some in the area choose to let run loose.

Some consider air rifles only toys but I had to have a Crosman 760 pump rifle fired BB removed from my shoulder when I was 10 and got in a friends line of fire when we were rabbit hunting in a thicket in the suburbs we lived in at the time.

He was surprised when I told him the history books often tell of the Lewis and Clark westward survey expedition having an air rifle of that single shot era in their gear.

While I and many others have spent 50 years or more saving and adding to our collections as we could afford or they were gifted, just as those starting their collections now, we often had to evaluate use and ammunition versatility rather than impulse preference in our purchase choices.

For example when I chose a 4 inch .357 revolver as my carry weapon of choice, I did so because I could use either the more expensive .357 rounds or the less expensive .38 rounds.

The following year when I had saved the money to purchase a lever action rifle , I bought my 1894 pistol caliber rifle based on my attention to ammunition versatility and ammunition costs were much more reasonable then.

Add to your collection as you can save to add to it, considering use and ammunition versatility as factors in addition to impulse desires and as it grows, your collection will give you satisfaction and maximum use reliability and acceptable cost factor.


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## crehberg (Mar 16, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> If you need to use a firearm, it's already "not a good situation".
> Guess whose store *wasn't* destroyed during the 1992 Rodney King riots:


I'm not gonna disagree with ya BFF. I think you make a good point. I will say, though, there is a difference (at least in my opinion) of rioting vs. a true SHTF scenario. And of course it also depends on location, neighbors, resources,...the list goes on.

Heck, maybe I'll pick up a couple more cases of .22 just in case.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

I try not to buy anything that Walmart does not sell ammo for. (Not that I actually buy much ammo at Walmart, but I figure those calibers won't get hard to find like 32-20 ammo or .17 PMC.)

By the way, OP I would add .38 Special.

I expect the gun grabbers to start passing laws or regulations that ban ammo since the Second Amendment does not mention ammunition.

They will most likely first ban .223 and other rifle ammo as "armour piercing". The regs already allow the banning of any ammo deemed "armor piercing". 

As we have learned, the ATF can change it's interpretations overnight.

Remember the demand for ATF to ban Teflon-coated "cop killer" ammo? (It didn't happen but some states banned it.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teflon-coated_bullet#United_States

Armor piercing legal definition:
------------------------

_18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(17)(B)

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a *handgun* and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; *or*

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot *required* by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.
_​------------------------
(Emphasis is mine.)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Definitely need a 12ga in the mix. Much more versatile weapon than any rifle / pistol round and a whole lot of different types and lengths of loads can be used in one.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> Just for the sake of discussion-during the event of even a partial breakdown of society, hunting seasons will go by the wayside.
> You'll likely see a spiral down in the numbers of deer and other game as the hungry will just shoot everything on site day and night. Then it becomes a numbers game, the attrition of man and beast, as to what will outlast whom.
> 
> 22LR with a homemade suppressor, a good crossbow, and yes, traps, would be all I would really want for hunting.
> The other calibers would only be dispensed for social work.


part of why you want to be prepared to eat things others hadn't thought of yet like raccoon , possum , coyote, muskrat ,beaver , cat , dog


there are lots of reasons for a gun other than total TEOTWAWKI

personal defense , hunting , varmint , dispatching live stock.

as well as many games you can play to improve your proficiency.

while you could say everyone needs a 9mm handgun , 223 AR platform rifle , 308 bolt action rifle with optic , 12ga shotgun with short and long barrel, and a 22lr rifle 

not everyone will use all of those.

depending on your interests start with 1 or 2 guns 

personal defense is likely a place where everyone could use a gun. a glock 19 might be a really great place for you to start. pick one up shoot it some then try a shooting sport with it like a local action pistol league or IDPA.
the bonus on a G19 is if you find you like something else they hold their value very well unless you do a bunch of modifications to them you can sell it if you don't like it and recover much of your money.
build the skills and see where that takes you.
you will find that many are seeking the best time only resist that urge to lower the time with equipment instead ask yourself constantly is this a setup I could carry daily , run real world belts, holsters , cover garments stuff you can carry everyday.
even in IDPA where there is a focus on it being more real world equipment often people will find what they run at the range is not what they carry. try and run as you carry.
if you aren't moving and shooting from off balance , bent over , crouching , kneeling , working around cover you should be. 
standing and shooting a single stationary target is a great place to start it builds sight picture ,sight alignment ,trigger control work on making good groups , then work on the timing function of controlled pairs . later work in draw and present , run on a par timer in dry fire practice. 
put it all together on drills and run on a timer.

if you can take a carbine class or attend a rifle clinic , you learn by doing , equipment that sounds good in theory often is found un-needed .
you learn a lot shooting , walking multiple miles in the heat carrying your gear back and forth on the line teaches you what you really need to be carrying as well as testing your skill and equipment in heat or cold , your body and skills with fatigue.
you also end up doing a bunch of learning about YOU in the process you might find a banana is the difference in shooting well and poorly because of the sweat in your eyes.

at a rifle clinic were we shot AQT targets at 100 , 200 , 300 , 400 yards you walked a half mile down and back on every target carrying your gear then another half mile to change targets by middle of day 1 I learned I needed to figure out some sort of sweat band I ended up with a cotton rag rolled up and string tied to the ends to fit it over my head , then my wide brimmed hat over that , day 2 I had a microfiber small towel folded up and strung in similar fashion it worked even better to wick the sweat away from my eyebrows. after that clinic and before the next I found a head band that is very thing and wicks the sweat very well and keeps cool as well.
a light weight oversize long sleeve shirt also proved very useful at that rifle clinic many of the other shooters were suffering sunburn day 2 

dehydration was also an issue. 
there are many more concerns than just the gun and ammo to think about in making yourself an effective shooter.


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## RenoHuskerDu (May 26, 2011)

OP does own 38 LCR, and 380s for ankle guns. I was just trying to emphasize my "core" calibers. I do have a soft spot for revolvers too. But we had to sell all our firearms when we left yurrup. Strict gun regs mean that only licensed arms transporters may ship them. Nobody was interested in one guy and his handful of arms. They didn't even return our mover's calls. So I'm starting over here in TX. Hence my interest in the core calibers first. Funny story, Homeland apparently was triggered by a gun safe with air rifles, in our shipping container. They charged us $800 extra for a supplemental inspection. They must have done it with imaging tech, however. The container had not been disturbed nor the safe opened when we finally got it. Scary tech.

On the ammo reserve front, that's always contentious. But I think that if you have laid in a "correct" reserve, LOL, then you're insulated from government weasels deciding that your faves may no longer be purchased.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

crehberg said:


> I will say, though, there is a difference (at least in my opinion) of rioting vs. *a true SHTF scenario*.


Yeah, the problem with discussing "SHTF" scenarios is that everyone has their own idea about what that means, so they create one to fit their theories.

For a "SHTF" geared more towards survival, I'd not want to try to get by without guns, although there may be times when it's best to not give away your location. 

For those occasions an air rifle or a suppressed 22 LR can feed you quietly, and can be used for self defense by almost anyone. 

That sound won't travel far in the woods or even in urban areas.


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## RenoHuskerDu (May 26, 2011)

Even with a small cheap suppressor, this reports like an air rifle.
https://www.midwayusa.com/Product/2...nition-22-long-rifle-60-grain-lead-round-nose
But the wallop on the target is substantial. Even at the firing line, the impact on metal backstop is louder than the report.

You need at least 9:1 twist to stabilize these past 30 yds. With 9:1 I was getting keyholes every 5th shot. Still on target, still hit hard, but past 30 with a tumble it's going to be increasingly inaccurate.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

spot on everyone has their own SHTF scenario I try and concentrate on the ones that are more likely to happen.

also while in a complete break down your home made suppressor wouldn't be an issue ,but it raises questions like how much will it change POI from POA , there is no legal way to test it out ahead of time.

however 22lr CCI quite from a long barrel gives suppressor like noise levels legally and you can know exactly where they hit 

you could also pay for the tax stamp and buy good suppressors now

more commonly occurring SHTF scenarios just because it isn't SHTF for the whole state or country doesn't mean your not solidly in the middle of SHTF.
you can absolutely be having a SHTF situation with the power up phones working and police on their way you have to survive the time till they reach you in many places that may be 40 minutes.
others big storm , big snow storm , days or weeks without power , riots , we have seen the effectiveness of people protecting themselves and property after hurricanes from looting and looters with a firearm as well as during riots , who's homes and businesses burned and who's didn't.
you would also be surprised how little is heard outside when you shoot a handgun in the house. 

this is why I would start with personal arms or side arms a gun you can carry with you just about everywhere you go get proficient with that everyone needs that.

then work in the carbines ,hunting rifles and shotguns as your demand


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

RenoHuskerDu said:


> Even with a small cheap suppressor, this reports like an air rifle.
> https://www.midwayusa.com/Product/2...nition-22-long-rifle-60-grain-lead-round-nose
> But the wallop on the target is substantial. Even at the firing line, the impact on metal backstop is louder than the report.
> 
> You need at least 9:1 twist to stabilize these past 30 yds. With 7:1 I was getting keyholes every 5th shot. Still on target, still hit hard, but past 30 with a tumble it's going to be increasingly inaccurate.


1:7 is a faster twist than 1:9 if it works well in 1:9 but not 1:7 it isn't because your not spinning it fast enough it may be because you stripped the bullet in the rifling with a long jump that happens when using a 22lr adapter in an AR as 1:7 would be a common AR twist but extremely unusual for a 22lr


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## RenoHuskerDu (May 26, 2011)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> 1:7 is a faster twist than 1:9 if it works well in 1:9 but not 1:7 it isn't because your not spinning it fast enough it may be because you stripped the bullet in the rifling with a long jump that happens when using a 22lr adapter in an AR as 1:7 would be a common AR twist but extremely unusual for a 22lr


I fixed that typo. My Sako Quad was 9:1 and that was barely enough to stabilize the SSS
Edit: I shoulda said 1:9, and it wasn't even that, it was 1:16.5


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

RenoHuskerDu said:


> I fixed that typo. My Sako Quad was 9:1 and that was barely enough to stabilize the SSS


I think you still have that mixed up. 

9:1 would be nine turns in an inch. For perspective, a 1/4-20 bolt is roughly the same diameter, and just over twice as many turns per inch- if that helps you visualize what the inside of the bore would look like. 

Still, I don’t think your Sako rimfire would have been 1:9. @GREENCOUNTYPETE brought that up because he was assuming you were talking about an AR conversion kit. 1:7 and 1:9 are common twists for a .223. A .22 rimfire is usually around 1:16. 

Dedicated .22LR AR uppers and purpos-build .22 rimfires would still be twisted for the sectional density of a common rimfire bullet.


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## RenoHuskerDu (May 26, 2011)

Ya know, I did bobble that, now I don't recall its exact twist, and I sold it. I suppose it was as you say. Sako web site says it's 1 twist in 16.5" which is 1:16.5 using the correct nomenclature like you did. I waited 4 months with a 17 HMR barrel on order, finally gave up. Sako says its twist is 1:9, maybe I mixed that up. https://www.sako.fi/rifles/sako-quad/quad-heavy-barrel

Getting back to the SSS ammo, it sounds like you'd need to rebarrel most 22lrs to shoot it well at longer distances. But from our use on targets at 25 meters, it was just starting to keyhole and still accurate enough for small game. We actually had four 22lr rifles, and they all shot the SSS about the same, with the Sako on top.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the CCI quite 40gr will stabilize fine out of most 1:16 twist barrels but they are a fairly short range round they really start dropping fast past 25 yards 
but that is where most rabbit removal around the garden I have done takes place and it works well with good shot placement

the SSS ammo probably would need a faster twist barrel 

I went a different direction not quite as quiet but 2.7gr of tightwad in a 30-30 case with a cast lead 90gr swc you can do similar with the 308 if you get into reloading it can be a fun how slow can you go trip. you can also use 00 buck pellets in the place of the 90 gr swc the .330 buck shot will get sized down a bit in the loading process and have small flats on the sides but it works fine.
these are nick named cat sneeze or mouse fart loads.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

RenoHuskerDu said:


> ..Getting back to the SSS ammo, it sounds like you'd need to rebarrel most 22lrs to shoot it well at longer distances. But from our use on targets at 25 meters, it was just starting to keyhole...





GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> ...the SSS ammo probably would need a faster twist barrel...


I’ve never shot them, but I’d be willing to bet that those SSS rounds were made specifically for shooting through .22-AR conversions using a .223 barrel. That skirted 60gr round-nose bullet is going to have a length in the same neighborhood as a 55 or 62gr jacketed spitzer.


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## RenoHuskerDu (May 26, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> ... That skirted 60gr round-nose bullet is going to have a length in the same neighborhood as a 55 or 62gr jacketed spitzer.


I lined them up side by side, took a pic, and it looks like the SSS might just be a skotch taller. A few thousandths. How do we upload images? Every time I try, android or Windows, I get a generic errmsg from this site.

I might start a new thread just on the SSS when I have some time. I'm going to ask my gun shop what he can get in 22lr rifles with fast twist and threaded muzzles. I'm such a potato head to have never considered twist before for this amazing subsonic round. It's reasonably priced too. Downside is its dirty powder.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

you could get a lot of money tied up in a gun to shoot one specialty round.

especially if your looking to add a suppressor also money woudl be better spent on another gun than a 22lr fast twist with suppressor. 

something like a 9, 45 or 300 black out suppressed gun


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## RenoHuskerDu (May 26, 2011)

I'm always on a budget.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

am also on a budget always.

with pistol braces we can get around SBR tax stamps 300 blackout runs suppressed or super and shoots well
a gas block with a selector you can choose normal , suppressed or off
if off you just turned that AR into a strait pull bolt suppressed 300blackout if you run it with a pistol brace you can run a short barrel.
it uses the same mags same BCG as you 5.56

so for 300 dollars you can build a suppressor ready 10 inch barrel upper for another 200 add a pistol lower 

the select-able gas block will add some additional cost.

you start seeing the possibilities 

we have some 300 blackout ARs pistols we use for deer hunting , they are not suppressed but cost is about 500 before optics and with decent shot placement deer fall right there.
we run 110gr v-max bullets over CFE-BLK great 200 yard accuracy I have taken them on steel to 420yards 
but don't plan to shoot deer over 150 yards dad took one 2 years ago right at 100 yards in the neck it just fell.

this fall my dad and I were both down in the swamp about 200 yards apart I could tell he had shot but I doubt theyheard it out at the road a half mile away in the wind add a suppressor and I am not sure on a windy day anyone is zeroing in on where you shot from

I built mine first , the township we hunt has a no rifles rule after the state went rifle statewide. the township stayed shotgun and pistol only by local ordinance. so I built a an AR pistol.
dad liked it so much especially that with all the back surgeries he has had , the almost lack of recoil didn't bother his back at all.
which meant he practiced more.
dad drove truck for many years and has a bunch of metal in his back as well as a shoulder rebuild a few years ago that didn't go so well. he shoots them then calls me up and I go gut them and drag them out. apparently retirement is grand. between him and my son I have a freezer of venison and I have't even shot a deer in 2 years.
he used to hurt from shooting his 12ga and I think he developed a bad flinch from shooting the 12ga but with the 300 he has taken 2 deer in 2 years both opening day after many years with no deer and some misses.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> am also on a budget always.
> 
> with pistol braces we can get around SBR tax stamps 300 blackout runs suppressed or super and shoots well
> a gas block with a selector you can choose normal , suppressed or off
> if off you just turned that AR into a strait pull bolt suppressed 300blackout if you run it with a pistol brace you can run a short barrel...


On that note, if the goal is being able to use sub-sonic .22LR through a suppressor, why not just use a pistol? Most (not all, but most) common .22 LR is going to be subsonic through a short-barreled pistol. That way, you don’t have to bother with special/expensive loads, or uncommon twist barrels to get the ballistic result you’re looking for.



I’m with you on the pistol braces, with one significant caveat. My “truck gun” is a braced 10” blackout tucked into my fold-up rear seat. My CCW lets me keep it loaded and hidden in my truck, and I don’t have to send in a stack of 5320.20s every year to cross state lines with it.

That said, I do think anyone that keeps uppers for their braced pistols needs to have at least one SBR lower in the safe. We could get lucky and this “_shouldering a pistol does not redesign a pistol into a rifle_” thing could last forever, but I seriously doubt it.

Don’t forget that from 2015 to 2017, shouldering a pistol brace was a felony, just because the ATF decided it was so, and they can just as quickly re-reverse themselves. If a future administration instructs the ATF to “re-examine” pistol braces, or pistol ARs altogether (just like Trump did with the bump stock), you’ll get 90 days or less to dispose of them, and, if you don’t have an SBR lower on-hand, any short uppers you have around would constitute “constructive intent”.

If you don’t already have an SBR lower or four, there is no better time than the present. Form 1s can be electronically filed right now, with a turnaround of a couple weeks, and there’s no transfer fee for a Form 1- you file it yourself. Professional engraving will set you back about $35, so for a grand total of $235, and a couple weeks’ wait, you can protect your pistol upper collection.


You can also register it in Trust, with a single responsible-person, adding the wife, kids, or whoever else makes sense after you receive the stamp. That protects your family, yourself, and your lower.

We’re in a golden-age of stamp collections right now. Don’t count on it always being this easy.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

a pistol lower sans brace would also fit the requirement to keep your short AR uppers.

I actually do not have short sub 16 inch uppers , we use a 16 inch barrel 300 upper because we want max velocity for hunting.
we also fit in a some what unique place the state does not care they went rifle state wide so the warden can not fine us for rifles even if we used them , the feds do not care and the township ordinace is met with a 16 inch barrel pistol.

technically we are a pistol in the eyes of the state if the state did suddenly considered it a rifle my liability would be that I could get a ticket for a loaded rifle in a vehicle. but no federal crime would be committed. 

all my lowers started as other so they can go which either way they are built. rifle or pistol.

my dad actually does not put the brace up to his shoulder at all his neck doesn't really bend well it is fused in 3 places. I also ran this way for 2 years till the current policy of as long as it is a pistol merely placing it to your shoulder does not make it a rifle.

I probably should collect some stamps but a form 1 suppressor is higher on my list than an SBR at this time.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Strictly personal preference,
I stick mostly to US military calibers.
I'm not a 'Tacti-Cool' guy, or an exotic caliber snob, and I do a lot of shooting to keep my skills, so price of ammo, then price of equipment (firearm, barrels, optics, etc.) Is the second biggest consideration.

I got an education in military calibers (from the military),
The ballistics data is everywhere and accurate on military calibers since they are researched to death...
Everyplace you can buy ammo has military caliber cartridges,
Every firearms manufacturer has cranked out firearms in military calibers,
There is sometimes military surplus ammo/firearms available for attractive prices,
Reloading is less expensive since military cases are cheaper due to availability, every component manufacturer is going to make military calibers in greater quantity so that stuff is often less expensive.

As a reloader, I like .22 LR simply because I get to shoot them twice, once as rim fine, the second time as a bullet jacket.
(Although I'm having great fun with .17HMR the last few years!)

12 gauge is everywhere and inexpensive, and simply gets the job done in several formats, from powdered lock/hinge busters, to small game shot, to slugs.

9mm/45ACP gets the job done in handguns.
I'm not much of a handgun guy, but common calibers do the same job as exotic calibers...

.223 Rem/5.56 NATO gets the job done with varmints with extreme accuracy.
Since no one on a civilian forum is a military 'Sniper', and if you forget all the 'Tacti-Cool' stuff, an off the shelf 'Varmint' rifle in .223 Rem (or 5.56 NATO) will shoot sub MOA and allow for surgical removal of varmints in pastures, no sense in getting all carried away with some caliber that costs $3 a round to shoot... 

.30 caliber, doesn't matter if it's .30-06, .308 Win/7.62 NATO, will drop about anything with an aimed shot...
The only issue I have is commercial .30-06 and surplus .30 US will beat a Garand to death over time, not that I shoot a Garand a lot anymore.

If you reload or buy ammo with the weight of bullet & muzzle velocity in the correct range, there are loads of commonly available optics with range compensating reticules that work for faster shipping, so that's an 'Upside' to military calibers/surplus ammo...

My second choice would be foreign military calibers because of surplus & foreign made ammo prices.
It takes practice to hit much of anything, so ammo price/availability is a consideration for me.
When I realized I pumped a lot more $$$ through the barrel than I paid for the barrel, there was a big shift in priorities...


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