# How do you combat the ignorance?



## happycat47111 (Nov 23, 2013)

We're in the middle of a snowstorm here in Kentucky that's possibly going to dump upwards of a foot of snow on my particular region. A lot of my friends out there in the world of the Internet are affected, as it's a wide-reaching storm. Had a chat a few minutes ago with one who just lost power. I asked how much water they had put back, and the answer was not surprising - only a couple of gallons. I know they went to the store yesterday and got âthe staplesâ (which are nothing like MY list of âthe staplesâ) so they feel secure. 

So I advised them to fill up a bathtub with water in case the substations lose power and canât pump. âDonât have one right now I can use.â

Okay. How about some tubs or something? Have any of those you can use? 

âNo. Besides, the substations have back-up generators.â 

I just canâtâ¦ I didnât even go into asking how they were going to stay warm tonight. I think my head would have exploded. 

I know I canât expect everyone I know to be as prepared as we are. And I know weâre miles away from being as well prepared as we should be. But it is disturbing on several levels to know that people who are really smart otherwise are so, wellâ¦ stupid when it comes to surviving. And God forbid anything majorly catastrophic happen. Half my friends would end up dead in the first few weeks. Thatâs a daunting thought. Weâd have a better chance than they would but it would still be a crapshoot. 

So how do you all deal with the ignorance and complacence? How do you get to that point mentally where you say âIâve tried, I can do no more, and I have to accept that.â ? Failing that, how do you lead the horses to the water, so to speak?


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

Well, for me it's just like I have had to do with my kids. They are all different.The oldest and youngest were hard heads and it took a lot of "punishment" to keep them in line. The middle one,just a stern look and problem solved.
They are all out on their own now and we worried and advised and it didn't do any good. The youngest will listen to your advice and consider it before making a decision but all in all we were weary of all of this. We just stopped advising ! Now it's "blah,blah,blah" and my response is "what are you going to do about it?" 
If they come and ask for advise it's there but it is no longer volunteered! It's just so much easier to say "you're a big boy,figure it out!" They ask,I tell,then they are on their own! You got to get to the point of letting them make their own mistakes! We certainly did!Now we know better.

Wade


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

I used to be offended when someone wouldn't let me help them grow some simple foods in a small garden, or acted like they wanted to learn to can food (until the day came to come stand for hours chopping and filling jars), or when someone would laugh about needing to go to the store for "bread and milk" before a big ice storm/hurricane. I'd rage to my DH when someone would say "I'll just come to your house" after not being interested in learning how to set up a decent pantry.

But I eventually realized I can't change people. If they're too stupid or lazy to even try, it's not my business. I still try to encourage people to keep some food in the house or at least have flashlights and some bottled water, but I don't waste any emotion on it anymore. 

I've worked hard to learn and spent a lot of money and time setting up our family's food storage, emergency plans and equipment, and taking care of my own family is my only responsibility. I'd give some food to a neighbor who didn't have any, and take over some medicine if someone was sick. But I'll be too focused on my own family's survival to spare much thought for anyone else if some tragedy strikes.

And those people who plan to "come to my house" when things get tough will find I'm not nearly as friendly and welcoming when my hard work is all we have between hunger and eating well.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

"So how do you all deal with the ignorance and complacence? How do you get to that point mentally where you say &#8220;I&#8217;ve tried, I can do no more, and I have to accept that.&#8221; ?"

The classic way is "Let go and Let G*d." Everyone has their own path. Put space between yourself and the time and emotion wasters, and use that energy for better things.


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

It does get frustrating, but after years of bringing up the topic, I'm seeing a bit of positive movement from some of my family members. I don't let them know how prepared we are though, so they don't threaten to come and bunk with us.


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## Skandi (Oct 21, 2014)

You hope they have a small problem before a big one hits. so say a couple of days with no elec or a day with no water, teaches you what you need to deal with it. 
Power I am used to going off, though with all underground lines it doesn't here. Water we never worried about, every house had by law to have a water tank. if we were told that the water would be off for a few days (not uncommon where we lived) we just put some extra buckets by for the toilet.
Basicaly some people will not act untill it happens, they may listen though, and may remember what you have said then. So hopefully they would be more prepared next time.


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

Harry Chickpea said:


> "So how do you all deal with the ignorance and complacence? How do you get to that point mentally where you say &#8220;I&#8217;ve tried, I can do no more, and I have to accept that.&#8221; ?"
> 
> The classic way is "Let go and Let G*d." Everyone has their own path. Put space between yourself and the time and emotion wasters, and use that energy for better things.


Just today my friend and I were talking about this issue ( lamenting our children's lack of awareness despite being raised by us ). We had to be honest, her father and my grandmother tried to tell us...we were both hard headed and thought they were slightly daft. We just knew the land of milk and honey was there for us and always would be.

Now, we are single mothers with adult children. We have seen unemployment, divorces, fighting for child support, etc. We have fed our children mac and cheese until we thought they would turn yellow. We have been without utilities. Our children, do not remember those times and honestly think it will never happen to them.

So, we just lead by example. That is all we can do....that and store extras. We were young, idealistic, head in the clouds once, and we know our children are going to come around in their own time. We did...it is just sad our loved ones were either demented or passed before we got our heads out of the clouds. They would be so proud of us now.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Well the wife made her run for the bread and milk before the snow started .I just had to kid her about it :sing: I think she just wanted to see what was going on in town . I sometimes fire up the 4x4 pickup and ride around looking over the country but haven't yet . We know we can make it till spring if need be even longer . If power starts going I will start the generator ,stir the beans on the wood burning stove and count my ammo :runforhills:

There is a fine line between ignorance and stupidity I should know I have crossed it a time or two .


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

Generally the circumstances that take individuals out of their comfort zone do not last long enough to make a lasting impression. The transformer is fixed within hours, the roads are cleared or the snow melts within a few days, the power lines are usually all repaired within several days (sometimes it takes a week or two), etc. 

Those individuals that do not really prepare in any way, shape or form are usually the first to whine, if not also the loudest, that their world has âfallen apartâ and they are going to die. I usually just grimace at their hyperbole and inwardly (and sometimes outwardly) laugh at them. No matter how many times these events occur to them they will usually never change and learn nothing from their experiences. After time has passed they will reminisce about âthat stormâ, the few days inconvenience that they suffered and feel like they can conquer the world. They may even feel that they are prepared for anything.

Sadly, that is the âhuman conditionâ in most first-world countries. Many second and third-world countries would be better off than most in the U.S. after a catastrophic event. I am quite happy that I have spent a great deal of time in those places. I learned how to live without a lot of what is generally considered to be the necessities for a ânormalâ life and have a greater appreciation for the âlittleâ things.

Short of sending your family and friends away to live for a year or two in one of the âhell-holesâ the best that you can do is to continue with what you do and then answer their questions as they ask them. If they are serious about learning they will continue to ask questions and you will continue to answer them. Or maybe buy them a subscription to the National Geographic. They do a lot of stories on people and places where modern amenities are not the norm. Perhaps it will be inspirational.

Otherwise, yes, if there is some majorly catastrophic event, many of your friends and relatives may die as well as mine. In some circles that would be considered population control.

TRellis


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

If someone asks a question, I answer to the best of my ability. I'm not responsible for what they do with the info.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

As log as it's snowing they have access to water. Just hope they have some way to convert it from frozen to liquid form. And hope they know not to eat the yellow stuff.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

I don't bother. I hate the feeling of frustration that goes with it. For some folks pain is the best teacher.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Some people are interested-those I find when buying something,say bulk,unknown item at a garage sale,and person asks what is it ,what you going to do with it ect. One can tell if they are really interested, those you can teach. Then there are those that Know you know the awnsers, but they are too embarassed to ask when they need to-I meen everyone knows THAT stuff (sarc). Most are just too used to doing things their way. Lazy? Sure. It seems to be natural for some to think it is easier to work at gardening/canning tending animals ect. than it is to "go" to work. That might have something to do with feeling forced to work rather than enjoying what one does.


My DBIL had no elec. yesterday, so he stayed home and his wife went to work. He kept a fire going, so they had some heat. Last night,elec. comes back on, he tells DH. I guess he spent the whole day melting snow so he could flush the toilets. No kids, no one home except himself, and he is remote enough to go outside to go to the bathroom-but he wasted all that time melting snow. I bet he filled up the back of the comode to flush too. I kinda feel sorry.


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## brosil (Dec 15, 2003)

I gave up trying to convert people. So many would starve to death in front of a parsnip because the wouldn't even know it was food.
Don't ask your friends how much water they stored. Ask them how much beer they have.


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## happycat47111 (Nov 23, 2013)

Sawmill Jim, we did a Walmart run before the snow started. Dear God, there's a reason I avoid that place at the first of the month and Black Friday, and that was it! We had to check out in the jewelry department and it still took 30 minutes of standing in line. 

I don't know how the milk and bread were faring, but the pop and chips were flying off the shelves. And it was Sunday else there would have been liquor sales (none in KY on Sunday.) 

I appreciate all the responses. I guess I'm doing what I can - educate where I can and leave the rest up to God. Can't save the world. 

TRellis, population control - yep. That had occurred to me. Sad butâ¦. yeah. 

We ended up with about a foot or better of snow. I know it's a lot, and honestly don't have any inclination to step foot outside to measure it to see exactly what it is. As long as we don't have to go out, no need to tempt Fate. And we could get up to four more inches here overnight. Yay. *cries* I hate winter. 

What scares me, though, is that last night on the news, the weather guy said the computer models are showing -26 overnight for two nights. That is unheard of in Kentucky. With those temps, no WAY the power grid will stay up. Water? HA! (And it won't be off for a few hours, either, but days.) Engines won't start without heaters in those temps unless I'm wrong, so no first responders people rely on so heavily. That's not the windchill, either. That's actual temp. If that comes to fruition, there are a lot of people out there who literally could freeze to death in their homes. I'm hoping it was a glitch. Because if it isn't? This is going to be awful. 

If the forecast doesn't change and it does appear that's what's going to happen, is there anything we can do to keep the water pipes from freezing? We have a slab (won't make that mistake again and we're renting right now so no help for it), and I was thinking turn the water off at the meter and drain everything. It'd be inconvenient for a few days but better than having to contact our less-than-stellar landlord with major plumbing repairs. But then again, I don't know if it would work or not. Advice?


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Sometimes you have to be kicked in the teeth before you pay attention. If you spend all day melting snow so you can flush the toilet, maybe at some point you will think about keeping a five gallon bucket of water so you can flush the toilet next time. Maybe you will reuse those 2 liter pop bottles as back up water. If you don&#8217;t fill them too high, you can keep them outside and let them freeze. Necessity is the mother of invention, not nagging. As for your children, it will all come back to them when they need it. Could be owning a big freezer and buying half a cow, could be a little garden in the sunny spot, could be storing water. 

If you keep the water running, you shouldn&#8217;t have to turn it off. Let a faucet leak. In fact, as it leaks, fill up your larger pots and set them on the stove. If you have a gas stove and you loose electricity, you can heat those pots of water on the stove.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

I'm north of you here is southern Indiana. We got down to -10 last night and have 2-3 more sub zero nights in the forecast. Our report is for windchill at -25 to -35 on those nights.
I don't get much truth from the TV weather forecasts so I use "intellicast.com . You can put in your zip code and get more reliable information. I certainly hope you misunderstood that forecast or at least i hope they were wrong,way wrong.

Wade


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## happycat47111 (Nov 23, 2013)

1shotwade said:


> I'm north of you here is southern Indiana. We got down to -10 last night and have 2-3 more sub zero nights in the forecast. Our report is for windchill at -25 to -35 on those nights.
> I don't get much truth from the TV weather forecasts so I use "intellicast.com . You can put in your zip code and get more reliable information. I certainly hope you misunderstood that forecast or at least i hope they were wrong,way wrong.
> 
> Wade


Wade, we were in SI from 1999-2013. Then we came homeâ¦. and Florida is looking better and better!!! 

I think (please, God) it had to be a fluke. The forecaster was stunned, though. He said he'd checked it three or four times, thinking it had to be the windchills, but it wasn't. According to Intellicast, -18 on Thursday night. Weather Underground has us at -19 that night. That is about ten degrees colder than we've had in my lifetime that I'm aware of. And it still could be easily life-threatening. 

I hope the computer is wrong. Been known to happen (more than it's right, as a matter of fact.) Shoot, they didn't know we'd get this snow until 24 hours before it hit. Maybe we'll have a magic warm up. :runforhills:


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Simple answer is; you can't. For some kids you can explain that the stove is hot and how it will hurt if they touch it all you want but until they touch it and get hurt they won't learn.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

The snow will help insulate to a degree. We hit negative thirty something air temp. two time the last few days. I am much farther north than you so it happens here. 
The suggestion about leaving your water taps on works. I would add that it might help to get up in the night and run the water full force and flush toilets. If your crawl space is not heated, hanging an incandescent light bulb, 60 watts or so, next to the pump helps. Checking for air leaks and sealing any close to the plumbing is crucial.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

happycat47111 said:


> Sawmill Jim, we did a Walmart run before the snow started. Dear God, there's a reason I avoid that place at the first of the month and Black Friday, and that was it! We had to check out in the jewelry department and it still took 30 minutes of standing in line.
> 
> I don't know how the milk and bread were faring, but the pop and chips were flying off the shelves. And it was Sunday else there would have been liquor sales (none in KY on Sunday.)
> 
> ...


Newer cars will start at -26 without being plugged in but you have to have light weight oil in them and big batteries. You probably don't put 5-30 in your car for the winter in KY. You may have to start your car every few hours to keep the engine warm. I don't recommend the following but I have seen it done, light a tray of charcoal and slide it under your oil pan to warm up the engine before you start it. At -26 your battery puts out about 15% of the power that it does at 90 degrees. We buy the biggest battery we can find up here on the frozen tundra, smaller ones are the norm in KY. If you have electricity you can put a trickle charger on the battery. It will keep it topped off and it will warm it up somewhat too. Keeping a car/truck in a garage helps too. It stays a bit warmer in an unheated garage than it does outdoors. If you don't have to start your vehicle first thing in the morning then wait for the warmest part of the day.

Do drain the pipes. Even better yet, blow them out with compressed air to get rid of any water that collects in low spots. It can burst the pipe right in the low spot. The plumbing in KY can be in places, like outside walls, that don't freeze under normal circumstances but will during what you are facing. If you can not heat the place where the meter is, then pack insulation around it. Crumpled newspaper is good insulation in a pinch. The city side of the meter still has water in it and will burst if it freezes. When the cold spell passes, and you turn the water on, you want to check the little dials on the meter. If all the faucets are turned off, the dials shouldn't move. If they do you should go looking for a leak. 

You have to keep the traps from freezing and bursting. If the house still has heat you can leave the cabinet doors under the bathroom and kitchen sinks open and they should be alright. Pick up some RV antifreeze and put some in unheated traps and the one for the bathtub even if it is heated. Put some in toilet bowl and tank too. 

Good Luck.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

If you lose your heat but still have hot water, try filling your tub with hot water. The heat will be radiated out into the home.

It is more effective than running your fireplace: I know because I have been there done that and I monitored the temperature over a 3 day period.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I hve a question for folks who live where the temps are colder than Kansas.

*IF* a person shuts the water off where it enters the house and then run the pipes dry, will the plumbing freeze or are they freeze-proof?


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Terri said:


> I hve a question for folks who live where the temps are colder than Kansas.
> 
> *IF* a person shuts the water off where it enters the house and then run the pipes dry, will the plumbing freeze or are they freeze-proof?


It will probably freeze where it enters the house in that case. Better to let the faucets drip. Also remember there's water in the traps in your drains that can freeze, letting the faucets drip will keep that open too


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Thanks!

ANOTHER question about winterizing pipes? 

How, then, do folks with summer cabins prevent the cabin pipes from freezing? I had heard that people turn off the water and drain the pipes: how is that done?


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

They have it set up so they can drain everything right back to the well or intake so there's no water in the system anywhere that isn't below the frost line. Then they blow out the lines and/or put rv antifreeze in them to protect what they've missed. Houses aren't usually setup to do that


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

DaleK said:


> They have it set up so they can drain everything right back to the well or intake so there's no water in the system anywhere that isn't below the frost line. Then they blow out the lines and/or put rv antifreeze in them to protect what they've missed. Houses aren't usually setup to do that


My house certainly is not set up for that!


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

In our case the pump is in a hole in the ground, the pipe goes to the cabin. The pump is taken off and the line to the cabin drains,the tap inside is left open, gravity does the work. We do not have hot water, but that would have to be drained too.


It has been many years sinse anyone even bothered with the water, we are used to useing jugs for washing and have an outhouse.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

It was -28 here,night before last(without the wind). We usally have problems with the water going to the toilet freezing. This time we put a small elec. heater right next to the water line to the toilet in the bathroom. No problems. That part of the house cannot be reached by dh underneath to insulate or put elec. tape on. This old farmhouse is over 100 yrs old, and had some "remodels" done. Probably would not have had problems if we used the furnace, but we only heat with wood,upstairs.


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## happycat47111 (Nov 23, 2013)

Terri said:


> If you lose your heat but still have hot water, try filling your tub with hot water. The heat will be radiated out into the home.
> 
> It is more effective than running your fireplace: I know because I have been there done that and I monitored the temperature over a 3 day period.


I'm craughing (cry-laughing) at that. It's a good idea butâ¦ This water heater apparently hasn't been drained since it was installed in the late 1980s. Matter of fact, I'm surprised it still works at all. So for a 40 gallon tank, we probably have about twenty or so available. I can't even run a tub of hot water for a bath, much less to heat the house. 

First thing on my list once Snowmaggedon passes? Drain the flipping water heater! 

I think for now we'll have to run the water. We have heat tape in the vulnerable areas that's rated to -40. If the power goes out, we're hosed. There's just no way to flush the pipes since it's a slab, and it's the Winchester house of plumbing and wiring around here. Eh, we'll survive it. Thanks, everyone for the advice.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Recently I had the opportunity to visit a supermarket in DC. Something struck me as strange. It came to me after I returned home. Based on size, there's a good chance the supermarket in a rural location like a Walmart will have deeper shelves and thus much more in stock.

City folks have a much shorter time than they know if TSHTF.

On the other hand it's given me a different view point of last minute buying/stocking if necessary.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

I just make sure my gate is locked and keep up my reputation of being the local recluse and ignore the zombies.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Ok, as an alaskan who has to face - 40 most years for a spell of up to 2 weeks.

Most home in anchorage are slab.

No your water line might not be as deep as ours are put in at but. 

Open sink cabinets

Got any of the old bulbs...(I did grab some just for thesre times) desk lamp
And a 75 watt bulb really helps.

Reminder...empty the cabinet.....sometimes there are flammable in them.


Run every sink a tiny steady stream about as think a lead in a pencil.

Store water now. Get paper plates and such..wash clothes now Get your candles and matches out 

Got mirrors ...they spread the light of a candle..heck tin foil works too
Get rock salt to have on hand.

Winter gear,flashlights,batteries.
No one here has even mentioned concerns about slab.

You will make it.


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## Mutti (Sep 7, 2002)

The hillbilly way to insulate is straw bales. In this 100+ yr. old farm house the plumbing is an iffy thing. If the wind is straight out of the west our water will freeze so 2-3 bales of straw on the outside wall works every year. In the spring we recycle it to the garden. Our crawl space is so tight skinny Pa can barely get in there but we have a light bulb burning in the winter in there and in the pump house. Also washing machine line will freeze so no laundry unless it's abot 40. Joys of the country


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

We usally do the bales, then I use them on the garden. We did not do it this year so dh had to shovel snow up against, that'll teach him.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

I don't think my septic system would like it if I ran a thin stream of water all night.

I do use light bulbs in the well box to keep the well pump from freezing. The problem is that light bulbs are not going to last a full winter. I have a small electric heater in the well box too. If the light bulb burns out or it gets really cold out, the heater takes over.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Frankly, I've stopped trying. Grasshoppers seldom transform into ants. I also say nothing about my storage as I don't want anyone knocking on my door begging/demanding what I worked hard for while they did nothing.
About the only thing I'll do anymore is if people show an interest in my garden, I let them know I am willing to help them get started on one of their own.


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

mnn2501 said:


> About the only thing I'll do anymore is if people show an interest in my garden, I let them know I am willing to help them get started on one of their own.


Yeah, that is what I did with someone, but it appears to have morphed into something else. It seems that the only attention that my friend's garden gets is when I stop by. He goes away on vacation for two weeks, I tend his garden and it seems to do really well for those two weeks. He returns and it goes downhill again.

It also seems that he has become dependent on me to start his seedlings. I always start more seedlings than what I will actually plant in the garden and give away the extras. That should not mean that he should count on my possible extras when considering how many he should start.

It may be an expensive growing season for certain people to maintain their garden. Tough love can be the "B" word.

TRellis


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## happycat47111 (Nov 23, 2013)

The latest weather forecast has us at -6 tonight, a high of 9 whopping degrees tomorrow, and then -20 tomorrow night. That's from intellicast, by the way. IF we can make it through tomorrow night, we hit a high of 26 or so on Friday, low of 19, and then the weekend highs are in the 40s. So my mantra now is "two more days" and I can relax. 

If we keep power, we'll be okay in the house. The water could freeze at the meter, though. It's below the frost line but in those temps???

Mnn2501, I'm very cautious about who I tell about what we have put back. What worries me is that there are a couple of people who know what we have who do not have the same distrust of the world that we do, and they might casually mention in passing that we have XYZ put back. I guess that's what the guns are for, though, in SHTF. Right?


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

Mutti said:


> The hillbilly way to insulate is straw bales. In this 100+ yr. old farm house the plumbing is an iffy thing. If the wind is straight out of the west our water will freeze so 2-3 bales of straw on the outside wall works every year.


Here we shovel snow up around the house, that keeps it quite warm in the basement. Our problem is an east wind, I found out where the cold was coming in and tucked insulation in the area and that stopped the pipes from freezing.

As far as the main topic about ignorance, we don't combat it, we try and isolate ourselves from it by keeping quiet and playing dumb. Either people know or don't and we have found in the past you can't tell them any different. They have to become educated by themselves. For example, we mentioned the 4 blood moons and told my sister in law that we thought they might mark an important change in the country, that they were flags that meant something historically important is happening or about to happen. That was almost 2 years ago, This summer she suddenly got excited about the idea and was asking us if we had heard about them... It doesn't do any good to try and tell people anything if they aren't willing to listen at the time.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

BlackFeather said:


> Here we shovel snow up around the house, that keeps it quite warm in the basement. Our problem is an east wind, I found out where the cold was coming in and tucked insulation in the area and that stopped the pipes from freezing.
> 
> As far as the main topic about ignorance, we don't combat it, we try and isolate ourselves from it by keeping quiet and playing dumb. Either people know or don't and we have found in the past you can't tell them any different. They have to become educated by themselves. For example, we mentioned the 4 blood moons and told my sister in law that we thought they might mark an important change in the country, that they were flags that meant something historically important is happening or about to happen. That was almost 2 years ago, This summer she suddenly got excited about the idea and was asking us if we had heard about them... It doesn't do any good to try and tell people anything if they aren't willing to listen at the time.


John Hagee has a video out right now. I'll try to find it for you. Talks about what might happen here.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwX3oMY1qVY[/ame]


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

happycat47111 said:


> I just canâtâ¦ I didnât even go into asking how they were going to stay warm tonight. I think my head would have exploded.


You pray God's deliverance over them then go on with your own life. They don't have a concept of how bad things can get in the right circumstances. And pray they never have to learn from personal experience.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

DaleK said:


> They have it set up so they can drain everything right back to the well or intake so there's no water in the system anywhere that isn't below the frost line. Then they blow out the lines and/or put rv antifreeze in them to protect what they've missed. Houses aren't usually setup to do that



Someone emptied the mobile home for sale. They did the clear and blowing out of the pipes. I think they put anti freeze in the pipes and called it "winterized".


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

For those with bales of straw, straw will insulate your crawl space. Around here, people with mobile homes set up straw around the perimeter of the trailer.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

You just can't get most people to believe that the gooberment may not be able to supply their basic needs forevermore. I still try to make my siblings somewhat prepared. They live in the Twin Cities.

I have a small generator. One brother lost power for over a week during summer so he borrowed the genny to keep the fridge going. I think he also ran a small window AC some too. Then my sister lost power for several weeks. She and hubby are dual income, no kids so she may be the best off financially of all of us. She didn't call me to borrow the genny. She let the food in the refrigerator spoil and collected the insurance to replace it.

Recent Christmas presents to the siblings have been kerosene lanterns and Lifestraw water filters. I have to think of something else to give them next Christmas so they are more prepared.

If everything does go in the pooper I expect them to try to make it the 200 miles to my place. They know that I can be independent if I have to and that it's OK for them to show up. I need the help too. The thing I worry about is they will probably wait until it's too late to try to leave the Cities.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

> So how do you all deal with the ignorance and complacence? How do you get to that point mentally where you say âIâve tried, I can do no more, and I have to accept that.â ? Failing that, how do you lead the horses to the water, so to speak?


I am jumping in late, and have not read any response.

How do I deal with it?
Some days, better than others. I am surrounded at work by laziness and entitlement. Most days, I can hack it. Some days, I get snippy. But at the end of the day, I am only going to give an account for me. I would like to be able to give a good report.

How did I get to the point of no return and accept it?
Being a supreme control freak, this was one of the hardest things I have ever done, and I still battle with it some days.
Control is an illusion. If someone wants to be foolish, let them.
At the end of the day, the only control I have is how I react to the things life throws at me. 

Lead a horse?
Yep, you can lead 'em but you can't make 'em drink.
Once I took my focus off 'someone else' and put that focus back on myself, I realized *I* am enough on my own plate to deal with; I have no business trying to 'lead, teach, control' anyone else.

I am still learning, but so far, as scary as it has been to STOP trying to control every thing.......it's been freeing to know, I DON"T have control, so stop trying!!!


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Maura said:


> For those with bales of straw, straw will insulate your crawl space. Around here, people with mobile homes set up straw around the perimeter of the trailer.


And then pile as much snow against it as you can.


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

From years of arguing with people about things like this I finally came to the big conclusion; 

*You cannot convince somebody not to be a moron


*Just be happy that you are not one.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Terri said:


> I hve a question for folks who live where the temps are colder than Kansas.
> 
> *IF* a person shuts the water off where it enters the house and then run the pipes dry, will the plumbing freeze or are they freeze-proof?


We had a cabin in northern Minnesota when I was younger, every fall we would turn off the pump, open all the faucets (and leave hem open) and pour anti freeze in the toilet tank and bowl and in the drain traps under the sinks (just pour a cup or so down each drain). Never had a problem with the pipes. Don't forget to drain the water heater also.

If you have city water there should be a turn off out near the street (underground) turn that off and drain everything like above.


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

I'm working on that control thing. When I feel the need to be controlling, I pick up the fiddle and go to work. It cannot be forced to do anything. It reflects what is going on in me. Controlling me is hard. I have thought about putting a rear view mirror on my violin where I can see myself, that says objects in mirror are smaller then they think.

Everyone is entitled to their say and we don't even have to be right all of the time.


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

mnn2501 said:


> We had a cabin in northern Minnesota when I was younger, every fall we would turn off the pump, open all the faucets (and leave hem open) and pour anti freeze in the toilet tank and bowl and in the drain traps under the sinks (just pour a cup or so down each drain). Never had a problem with the pipes. Don't forget to drain the water heater also.
> 
> If you have city water there should be a turn off out near the street (underground) turn that off and drain everything like above.


Problem with that is that most city water farther south isn't buried deep enough, particularly as it branches off to the house. Turn it off outside the house and a few days of unusual cold will freeze the lines underground and then they're frozen until spring or you dig them up and thaw them.


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## Mutti (Sep 7, 2002)

Still remember my Dad fishing the dead mice and/or chipmunks who got into the cabin out of the toilet! But we did have frozen pipes and our cabin was in northern MI


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

There is a free book by FEMA called "Are You Ready". It isn't really a prepper book but it does cover the shorter emergency situation well. You could order one of these books sent to each person you think needs the information. I think an organization like a church or social club can order in bulk. 

My mother is 93 and lives in an all electric house. When dad died dh and I bought her flash lights, extra batteries and lamp oil. She had a kerosene heater but she gave it away. She has no way to heat water or food or her home if the power is off. When I expressed my concern she said it wasn't a problem because someone one would come and take her to the community center. 

Leaving the water running to keep pipes from freezing is a good idea as long as drains don't freeze. In our old house the kitchen drain would freeze so leaving water running wasn't a good option. In the half bath the water line to the toilet would freeze so I'd wash dishes in dish pans and then pour the water in the toilet to flush it.

If you have city water, city mains breaking from frost heave is quite common with extreme temperature fluxations. You can be without water from a couple hours to a couple of days followed by a boil order. We had that happen 2 or 3 times last winter. 

I'll share a dumb people comment. One year had an ice storm in late October followed by a week of zero temps. Five miles of power poles snapped so we were without power for that week. Several people complained about losing the food in their refrigerators and freezers. None were smart enough to realize it was ZERO outside and to move their food.


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## DryHeat (Nov 11, 2010)

If your cold is much more severe than what you've gone through before, be aware of plumbing components not showing that they're cracked until those following days when the highs finally get back to 40-50F for a while. If you're gone from your residence, or business, during most of a day, you can come back to a totally flooded-out mess if you haven't kept the water turned off at its meter. Ask me about my front yard ice skating rink in East Tennessee at some point in the 1980s....


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## happycat47111 (Nov 23, 2013)

I'm a control freak, too. I think that's why it's so hard for me to let things like that go. 

Ann - wow. Really? Shoot, these days I use the garage to stick pots of food out there after we've had supper to cool it down enough to put it in the fridge. It's unheated and not insulated, so basically it's a windbreak for the cars. Works great at cooling a pot of chili down fast.  

Our water froze last night - feel so stupid about this. It was only down to 0 night before last, and I didn't even think about it. Then it got down to -12 last night (thank God not the -23 they were initially giving), and dumb-dumb didn't run the water. Got ready for bed and flushed the toilet and nothing happened. So after dragging hubby out of bed at 1:30 to send him out to the door where you get to the water pipes with a space heater, starting a fire in the woodstove to warm it up downstairs (which was frigid, versus upstairs which was "strip off and sweat" warm), and generally making a hot mess of things, it thawed pretty fast. Maybe 30 minutes? We got lucky. Talk about feeling stupid&#8230;

I'll probably send him out there to shovel snow up around the door in a bit. It's 26 and not supposed to get "that" cold tonight, only in the teens. But there are a few days coming up where they're giving 0's again. Now, the good news? My inlaws across the street? Their well water froze. Don't know if they didn't let it run or what, but apparently the cap came off the wellhead. And the better news? We're supposed to get what could be a significant amount of ice - up to three inches of the stuff - tonight and into tomorrow. We're going to get something, we just don't know what yet. Could be wet, heavy snow. Could be ice and sleet. Could be rain. Probably will be a mix of all three. 

We did manage to make it out today, picked up some fresh produce and just got out of the house. We work at home, so at least we don't have to worry about that. But I'm concerned about the next few days. Best case we would just get rain, but even then, mudslides and trees would probably fall all over the place, and if that happens? Out goes the power and it'll stay out for a few days. They're talking about roof collapses, etc. with the weight of the ice and snow. I *think* we're okay - steeper pitch and good, strong trusses - but I don't know. 

It's discouraging because I was really, really, really looking forward to having temps in the above-freezing range the next few days. I've done well this winter with pain (I have fibromyalgia) but man alive, the last ten or so days? Nothing has been able to touch it. And it's not been excruciating, only a 6 or so out of 10, but after several days of that, it's wearing on this old girl. Told hubby we might have to seriously consider going someplace where temps below 30 are a rarity. 

Anyhow, thanks for the advice, and thanks for letting me vent.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

If you get 3 inches of freezing rain you *WILL* lose power! 

It is an amazing sight, but very uncomfortable!


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## happycat47111 (Nov 23, 2013)

Terri said:


> If you get 3 inches of freezing rain you *WILL* lose power!
> 
> It is an amazing sight, but very uncomfortable!


If that were to happenâ¦. man. It'd be off for a while. I'd probably wait until it thawed, pack up hubby and the cats, and hit the road for warmer land. That might just be the straw that would break this camel's back. 

Hopefully it comes in the form of rain. Plain, wet, non-freezing rain.


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## happycat47111 (Nov 23, 2013)

It's raining! We got some sleet, some ice, some really fat, wet snowflakes, but most of it has been rain. The creek's a'rising, but that shouldn't be too huge a problem, hopefully. Whew. I can relax for a little bit.


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

Terri said:


> Thanks!
> 
> ANOTHER question about winterizing pipes?
> 
> How, then, do folks with summer cabins prevent the cabin pipes from freezing? I had heard that people turn off the water and drain the pipes: how is that done?





DaleK said:


> They have it set up so they can drain everything right back to the well or intake so there's no water in the system anywhere that isn't below the frost line. Then they blow out the lines and/or put rv antifreeze in them to protect what they've missed. Houses aren't usually setup to do that


There are a lot of vacation cabins around here, and as others have noted, they generally blow the lines out and drain the cabin. One neighbor had a low spot and he didn't get all the water out and, when he came back for a visit a couple weeks ago and turned on the water, he had quite a spectacular leak. We gave him a length of pex and some fittings (it was a copper pipe in his crawlspace that broke) and he replaced it with the pex and all was well.

I'm willing to bet there's not a vacation cabin up here that hasn't had major plumbing work. Aside from the cold, there are also rodents that will chew leaks in plumbing, and the cabins, until recently, did not need to be built to any code. Most vacation cabin owners are fairly handy, at least in this area -- I think ALL our neighbors are either from a rural background, worked in construction and/or are ex-military. 

Newer cabins, however, are also required by code to have a type pliable plastic plumbing that is freeze resistant -- Pex is the most common brand around here. It will take a freeze without bursting, though you don't want to test this too often. (It can burst, particularly at the fittings, but it usually doesn't.)

Most houses can be drained. You use the lowest outside faucet as the drain (with hose attached so it siphons to an even lower level) for the cold water and the hot water heater -- assuming it's on the lowest floor, which it usually is -- as the drain point for the hot water. Be sure to turn the hot water heater OFF. After you turn the water off, you also flush the toilets, and then pour antifreeze into the bowls. You use compressed air to blow the lines out to make sure there's no water in low points. You turn the water off at the well, and drain the well pump, if there is a well. 

If the house has a basement with plumbing in it, adjust accordingly. 

And then you plan on plumbing repairs in spring, because odds are, you'll miss something. I know someone who turned the water back on and discovered the water line for the icemaker for their fridge had frozen and burst. There's always something. You just fix it. 



Nimrod said:


> I don't think my septic system would like it if I ran a thin stream of water all night.
> 
> I do use light bulbs in the well box to keep the well pump from freezing. The problem is that light bulbs are not going to last a full winter. I have a small electric heater in the well box too. If the light bulb burns out or it gets really cold out, the heater takes over.


Aside from the septic tank being unhappy about that much water being run into it, the septic tank itself can also freeze. A slow trickle of water into the septic tank can actually CAUSE freezing by creating an ice dam. This is ... not desirable. :yuck::yuck::yuck: 

There is not much you can do to avoid a frozen septic tank, particularly if it's engineered or uphill of the house and the power goes out, except to pile insulation -- extra dirt or bales of straw -- on top of the relevant parts of the yard. I would assume a septic tank puts off some heat, but under extreme conditions they do freeze. This is not good. I have no idea how you stop a septic _field _with a hill or field made of volcanic cinders from freezing. If the freeze line gets deep enough, the field can freeze too. Pile more cinders on top???

(As a side note, while the rest of the world deals with the Snowpocalypse, we're all running around in shorts and the grass has turned green. The garlic is a foot tall already, and the trees are blooming. You guys are getting our missing winter. We actually need it to prevent a bad fire season, so if you're tired of our snow, just send it back, thanks. :facepalm


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Cygnet said:


> (As a side note, while the rest of the world deals with the Snowpocalypse, we're all running around in shorts and the grass has turned green. The garlic is a foot tall already, and the trees are blooming. You guys are getting our missing winter. We actually need it to prevent a bad fire season, so if you're tired of our snow, just send it back, thanks. :facepalm



We're not in shorts(well some are, I'm not) but it's been nice and warm here. Mesquite is getting leaf buds, alfalfa fields are greening up, allergies acting up.... it's beautiful outside.


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## KMA1 (Dec 9, 2006)

Willful ignorance is stupidity. Let natural selection takes its course, or it reproduces, as is now plainly obvious in our society.

KMA1


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

On a different post I had let people know about our own shtf. I live in a remote native village in Alaska and about a month ago the pipes in the entire village froze. We only got water back last night. We ended having to use water from the river. We did try snow, but you don't realize how dirty it is until you melt it. Even freshly fallen snow is dirty. We would have everything from black gunk that would sink to the bottom to hair, dust and weird floaty things that were suspended in the meltwater. We couldn't even strain most of the stuff off. The river water was at least not as contaminated. We did boil and bleach it for use and used a Berkey for all of our drinking water. So, in the future we will store much more water for emergency use. Thank God we had about two dozen gallons of water stored and several Rubbermaid bins filled with water "just in case". We were very grateful for that foresight. When that ran out we implemented our river runs and boiling/bleaching regimen.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

Astrid said:


> On a different post I had let people know about our own shtf. I live in a remote native village in Alaska and about a month ago the pipes in the entire village froze. We only got water back last night. We ended having to use water from the river. We did try snow, but you don't realize how dirty it is until you melt it. Even freshly fallen snow is dirty. We would have everything from black gunk that would sink to the bottom to hair, dust and weird floaty things that were suspended in the meltwater. We couldn't even strain most of the stuff off. The river water was at least not as contaminated. We did boil and bleach it for use and used a Berkey for all of our drinking water. So, in the future we will store much more water for emergency use. Thank God we had about two dozen gallons of water stored and several Rubbermaid bins filled with water "just in case". We were very grateful for that foresight. When that ran out we implemented our river runs and boiling/bleaching regimen.


A few years back my brothers and half dozen other guys went out west elk hunting in the mountains. Got their water from a fresh running mountain stream for 2 whole weeks. The day before they left one of my brothers went a couple hundred yards up stream and found a dead mountain goat in the water that had been there for a while. He couldn't bring himself to tell the others.


Wade


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## Calico Katie (Sep 12, 2003)

Thought this story might be appropriate for this thread. It's titled, "We'll Just Come to Your Boat, Noah".

http://canninggranny.blogspot.com/2012/12/well-just-come-to-your-boat-noah.html


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

1shotwade said:


> A few years back my brothers and half dozen other guys went out west elk hunting in the mountains. Got their water from a fresh running mountain stream for 2 whole weeks. The day before they left one of my brothers went a couple hundred yards up stream and found a dead mountain goat in the water that had been there for a while. He couldn't bring himself to tell the others.
> 
> 
> Wade


Even without the goat, running water often carries giardia or other parasites. It's just not safe to drink "wild" water without boiling or filtering it.


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

Ann-NWIowa said:


> There is a free book by FEMA called "Are You Ready". It isn't really a prepper book but it does cover the shorter emergency situation well. You could order one of these books sent to each person you think needs the information. I think an organization like a church or social club can order in bulk.
> 
> My mother is 93 and lives in an all electric house. When dad died dh and I bought her flash lights, extra batteries and lamp oil. She had a kerosene heater but she gave it away. She has no way to heat water or food or her home if the power is off. When I expressed my concern she said it wasn't a problem because someone one would come and take her to the community center.
> 
> ...



Do you think it would be helpful if you reminded your mother even Meals on Wheels cancels on bad days? If something bad were to really happen staff and volunteers may be home with their own families? Or any other myriad of circumstances? When my grandmother entered her 90's she stopped caring about being prepared or anything else. I think after all those years of being a control freak she was ready and willing to trust anyone and anything to take over. Sad.


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

Mom_of_Four said:


> Even without the goat, running water often carries giardia or other parasites. It's just not safe to drink "wild" water without boiling or filtering it.


We use a Berkey for our water here - even the water that comes from the community well is cloudy. The Berkey cleans everything out. The river water was discolored, but between the bleach and the boiling we figured any bacteria in there would be destroyed. It was fine for washing. 

I would not trust any water out there. Giardia is a nasty thing and is hard to get rid of.


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## happycat47111 (Nov 23, 2013)

Katie, thanks for the link. That's a cool blog post (and looks like a pretty cool blog). 

Ky Dreamer, I imagine at that age, your grandmother was tired. I can understand that.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Yes, melted snow is dirty. So is rainwater. Still can be used for washing or flushing.


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

When dealing with really dirty water, first I treat it with the appropriate amount of bleach or iodine. (I'd have to look the current recommendations up, it's been a few years, and I always wrote them on the bottle if they weren't already there.) This will actually cause the gunk in the water to settle out. Then I carefully pour off the clear water, trying to leave as much yech behind as possible. If there are still large contaminants in the water after being sanitized with bleach or iodine (never both, use one or the other), I'd pour it through a folded piece of clean fabric, a coffee filter, or a couple paper towels.

:happy2: I'm from Arizona. When backpacking in remote areas, sometimes the only source of water is a stock tank, muddy seep, or ankle deep creek with visible animal feces in it. You drink it or you die, quite literally, and if you don't _treat _it, you _will _regret it. 

If you're scooping water up in a bottle from a water source, be sure to sanitize the cap and threads of the bottle too. Seriously. You do NOT want to know how I learned, the hard way, that this was very necessary. (It wasn't even that yucky of a creek, either, in that case.)

If there are a lot of tannins in the water (the brown color), the the chemicals will probably not get all the color out, though they'll improve it. I usually added gatorade to the water to improve the taste at that point. (Gatorade or another form of electrolytes-- a handful of salty potato chips or banana chips worked -- was also necessary, when carrying a heavy load for miles and working up a sweat, to prevent water intoxication. You can't just drink straight water, you HAVE to add electrolytes in one form or another.)


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