# Bit responsiveness



## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Does anyone know any good websites that have good exercises for making a horse more responsive to the bit? My Appy, when on the ground is soft and supple and does excellent at lateral flexion, but as soon as you get on, he is stiff in his neck and unresponsive to the bit to the point of where if he is interested in something or is bound and determined to go a different direction, I have to REALLY pull to bring his head around. So, exercises for helping with bit responsiveness?


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Are you sure he's comfortable with his tack? If he's uncomfortable he might feel more irritated or nervous and not listen as well. 

Have you done the lateral flexion under saddle? Just to overview, pick up one rein, with the opposite rein completely loose. Pick up as light as you can, and increase if no response (I will start bumping if they are really heavy, bumps dont' give something to lean on). Release when the horse brings their nose all the way around, even to touch the stirrup or your boot. IMMEDIATELY release fully. Repeat. Eventually ask more, so that the horse gives a loose rein longer. Also, when you do release, the horse should not snap it's head back like "darn it, I did it this time, but I might not do it again!". If so, just pick up the slack as his head is returning straight so he catches himself on the bit. 

Also, try one rein stops are great to help them take the bit seriously.

Do lots of circles and figure eights, those always seem to get them listening and softening up. Lots of trotting. Changing direction and trying to stay on a circle hones your communication and gets the horse listening because he doesn't have time to think about other things, he's too busy. When I'm doing circles, I like to gently bump the bit if the horse falls out of the circle, rather than keep a constant pressure. I act like the bit is made out of a razor blade-- unless the horse ignores it! But I always start soft as I can. 

Once the horse is great with lateral flexion, teach verticle on the same principle. Just pick up the reins evenly, I place my hands on my legs so they don't move at all. Then when they give, throw away the reins. Once the horse gets the idea, you can just release when the headset is what you want the horse to have. Eventually ask for longer times. This should of course, be started at the stand still. Once you're good there, start all over again at the walk. Once that's good start at the beginning at the trot etc. 

Also, really pay attention to your hands when you are riding, you may be giving bit pressure at times you aren't realizing it. Unnecessary bit pressure dulls the horses response. Might helpt to have someone watch you. Keeping a loose rein at all times you are able to will help increase sensitivity.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

He's actually very good at vertical flexion. I have the most trouble when I need him to turn and he doesn't want to and it's a battle of the wills and he has a very strong neck and me with all my strength to pull his head around. He's in pretty much the same bit he was in when I got him. A Tom thumb bit. I keep my hand all the way down in front of the horn and the reins totally loose when we're just going along, but I have a terrible time with him following a straight line. He wanders from side to side.

On the lateral flexion on the ground, he will pull his head around and just leave it there. LOL You actually have to push his head back to center. I don't know how long he would hold his head there, but probably indefinitely. LOL But once you're in the saddle he is all go and HATES changing direction and I hate having to pull on his mouth. Even bumping or steady pressure with the outside leg only helps a little with his turning. But his lateral flexion is actually quite good. He'll tuck his head into his chest if asked, the only thing I don't like is when asking him to whoa, he'll also do that.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I've never used a tom thumb, but I've not heard great stuff about them. Have you tried just a regular snaffle? A full cheek? I like those. They help push on the side of the face for lateral direction. 

I bet the circles and figure eights would be good for him. 

Oh, also, turning them into the fence is great to get them moving that front end for you. Try trotting along a fence, stop, back up a tad, then turn into the fence and immediately off in the other direction. You want one smooth motion, push him through it if he tries to plod through the turn. You want him to pick up that front end and roll over his hocks. 

You can also do circles by the fence, so as you come along side the fence in your circle, turn him back into the fence, in the oposite direction and circle around to the fence again and repeat in the opposite direction. Use your reins or something to smack him on the shoulder if he ignores your leg in the rollbacks and tries to plod through it. Let him know you're serious.

If you get lost in what you are doing, where you are going and what the next move is, that seems to be when they are forgetting about what they want to do and start listening.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I generally use a tom thumb and like anything else, it has its place and should be used properly. 

It sounds like you have a multi faceted problem because the horse is not responding to your leg or the bit. Is your bit fitting properly and is it sitting correctly in his mouth? You need to make sure your chin strap also fits properly and have you had his teeth checked?


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Yes, I have tried a full cheek snaffle.  He responds less to it than the tom thumb. He's not out of control, just stubborn on giving. The big is sitting up in his mouth nicely and according to the man I got him from, had his teeth done. The curb strap is loose and makes contact when I bring the shank about 1/4 to 1/3 of the way back (and that's a guesstimate). (I'm not good at degrees) 

I may try the fence thing. Right now is SO muddy that it's impossible to do almost anything with slipping and sinking. Can you work on one rein stops with a tom thumb? Or does it have to be a regular snaffle? I hate changing bits back and forth as I have to adjust the whole bridle every time I change bits. The man that had him before had him in a french link snaffle curb bit. Hmm...not sure what you call it. It might have been just slightly smaller in diameter than the tom thumb. I'm not sure where he got the bit as I've never seen one like it. He says he preferred that over anything else. I considered getting a transition bit that is the same diameter as the tom thumb but has a place for reins at the mouth. Reason being is he is only slightly good at neck reining, but generally you have to reach down and reinforce the neck rein with a direct pull. Reaching out with your pinky finger on that side and lightly bumping his mouth doesn't work well when he doesn't want to go that way. 

My husband is supposed to be building a round pen when the ground finally allows for it. We have everything for it and I will be very happy as it'll have a bunch of sand brought in and I'll have a place to work with sure footing. He's a joy to ride and very calm and sweet, but he's young and has a few things that he just doesn't know well that we need to work on.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Oh, and if I have trouble with the roll backs by the fence, I'll come back and ask!! LOL


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Yea, rollbacks and such aren't a great idea in bad footing. You can't be worrying about falling. 

Don't let him ignore your leg, if he does, bump him harder or whack his shoulder with the reins until he really moves off of it good. When he learns he can't get away with being heavy, he won't be any more.


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## Jay27 (Jan 11, 2010)

There is a muscle running parallel to the ground across a horse's lower rib cage. (Part of the muscle system that holds their front shoulder to their body). This muscle can get very tight and then when you cinch the saddle down, the girth pushes right on it. If that is sore, a horse won't do a whole lot of things - can be cinchy, nervous, jiggy when you mount or not want to flex or collect. Put your fingers together, press hard and run your fingers down the ribcage starting right behind the elbow. If you fell any muscle clumps or if the horse reacts, you need to stretch those muscles. To stretch, just lift the front leg forward and up (the horses knee can be bent... I essentially lock knee to elbow with the horse so I can really lift the leg up and use my back to do it). Most horses have some tightness in this area, some are just more tolerant of it. I don't think people stretch their horses enough. I stretch when I workout - even before I ride - so why wouldn't I stretch my horse? Tight and knotted muscles hurt whether you are a person or animal.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

A french link and tom thumb are not even remotely similar. Is there some reason you chose to use something different that the owner?


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

It sounds like maybe he hasn't been taught to turn, especially if he doesn't neck rein. I would try driving him, in a small area, and see how he responds to the concept of following his nose, then go from there. If he works fine without a saddle or rider, then the issue may just be a lack of under saddle training.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Refresh us, is the horse trained to neck rein?  Mine doesn't like me up in his mouth and responds much better to the lightest hand motions and leg while neck reining. Is this the same fella that refused to walk off?

TT are good if used properly, but remember the slightest pull is magnified in his mouth, such as a "whoa" or "slow up, stupid" nudge. And you must consciously keep a loose rein or there will be pressure in his mouth even when you don't want it with a TT.  I changed my one horse to a Robart bit, costs a bit more money but I saw an INSTANT change in my head tossing bit eating appy. The Robart has rolling joints in each section so as not to pinch, ever. http://www.pinchlessbits.com/IW99.html He also has a "what mouth type is my horse" type of guide, albeit slated to sell his own product, could still be helpful.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

The owner said he would work find in a tom thumb, that his personal preference for all horses was a french link curb bit. Tom thumbs are way easier to find around here, in fact, I have never seen a french link bit for sale in this part of the state. 

He was "neck reining in training". LOL He said that the way he was training was to lay the rein over the neck then use your pinky to reach out and bump the rein as in a direct rein bump. Works great in an arena.......sometimes. Does not work on the trail where he is far more interested in going where he wants to go and gets stubborn about not going where you want him to go.

I don't believe it's a tack issue or anything like that just by the way he acts. It would be a more not being soft to the bit. I did find more exercises for softening a horse. Some from John Lyons and one from a woman that teaches barrel horses. He's not a barrel horse, but the lesson she was teaching would work for this too as he likes to stiffen up going into a turn if he doesn't happen to want to go that way. He does need to learn to neck rein better. He really doesn't have this concept down well at all. I was thinking about taking him back and getting him more responsive to legs and less reliant on reins. He's young, and although he's been trail riding a lot and is darn near bomb proof, he just has some resistance there in his neck and doesn't like to give laterally, but like I said, gives beautifully vertically. He will give beautifully laterally on the ground though. With a bit or with a halter. Just when you're actually on him and going somewhere is another story. 

John Lyons had a 3 step, stop, back up. Supposed to make them more responsive to the stop, which he hates to stop for more than a couple of seconds at a time. We're working on that though. And also a constant change speed and direction exercise and a one where you're supposed to stop and then keep driving forward just a bit until his back legs are more under him and stops more collected instead of the little half halts he does. I thought those were a few things we could do at a walk and work on even though it's muddy. We're supposed to get even more rain this weekend, so doesn't look like it's going to be drying out any time soon. I'm also going to pay close attention to where my feet and my seat are when stopping and turning. I know my hands are loose and his reins are loose. Lots of years in showing in Western Pleasure at least taught me that and I know I'm not leaning forward, but I do need to work on planting my seat when I want him to stop and I know I need to use my feet more and hands less.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

This is the kind I would like to get and use on him so that I have the advantage of working on our neck reining while being able to direct rein when I need to.

http://www.pinchlessbits.com/IW105.html

We have a regular snaffle with that same mouth piece. I haven't tried it on him, but I prefer to stick with shanks so we can work on our neck reining too and he responds better to a curb bit than he does a regular snaffle. 

He's not a bad horse at all. He's fun to ride and he's safe and not spooky at all. Just not as soft and supple and responsive as I'd like him to be.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

beccachow said:


> Refresh us, is the horse trained to neck rein? Mine doesn't like me up in his mouth and responds much better to the lightest hand motions and leg while neck reining. Is this the same fella that refused to walk off?
> 
> TT are good if used properly, but remember the slightest pull is magnified in his mouth, such as a "whoa" or "slow up, stupid" nudge. And you must consciously keep a loose rein or there will be pressure in his mouth even when you don't want it with a TT.  I changed my one horse to a Robart bit, costs a bit more money but I saw an INSTANT change in my head tossing bit eating appy. The Robart has rolling joints in each section so as not to pinch, ever. http://www.pinchlessbits.com/IW99.html He also has a "what mouth type is my horse" type of guide, albeit slated to sell his own product, could still be helpful.


Thank you for the link.  I've been reading and will have to go out and get a close up look of his mouth. I know he has a big muzzle, but don't know how long his lips are. I think I'll probably get him a shank bit that can twist like that so as to not pinch his tongue. See if he does any better in that.  Which I suppose would also be the different between a tom thumb bit and a french link, no pinch. I'll try it and see how he does.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

You know, over looking over some bits, I would almost say that the bit he was using was a Dr. Bristol bit? If I remember right, his had a longer center joint. Not sure I'm remembering right. He called it a french link bit. But that may explain his leaning on the bit like he does. 

If I could find a french link with shanks...........................


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

beccachow said:


> I changed my one horse to a Robart bit, costs a bit more money but I saw an INSTANT change in my head tossing bit eating appy. The Robart has rolling joints in each section so as not to pinch, ever.


I posted to someone about how much more responsive my mare was to her Robart bit on a thread on this forum, and posted pics of it. Was that you I was talking to about it, Becky? If so, glad to hear it worked well for you! I love mine.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

FYI - a snaffle bit does not have shanks. Ever. 

And why do people think they need a curb bit to neck rein?? You can neck rein with any bit, bosal, hackamore, halter, or even just a rope around the neck. It does not have to do with the type of bit.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

I happened to have a Robart bit here at the house. It's just a regular snaffle. I did switch that out on his bridle and we just in general worked in the pasture for awhile on stopping, lateral flexion, figure 8's, backing and so forth. He did really well. So, we went out on the road and down the road for awhile. He did really well. More stiff than in the pasture, but all in all did ok. I think I'll stick with a Robart bit, but one with shanks as he does respond a little better to that, but now, this one will work. I'll keep him on it next time we go as a group and see how he does. He often goes out better by himself than he does in a group. 

All in all though, he did really well and I was pleased with him and we ended on a very good note.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

2horses said:


> I posted to someone about how much more responsive my mare was to her Robart bit on a thread on this forum, and posted pics of it. Was that you I was talking to about it, Becky? If so, glad to hear it worked well for you! I love mine.


Could be! I met the guy at an expo and he put the bit in my hand, and worked it. It just rolled along my hand. Then he put a TT in my hand and worked it, and I could feel the pointy joint and the possibility of a pinch. Never thought much about it before, really! They are a lot more money, but well worth it to have a horse respond so well. And he has a bit for every use! The expo is this week, I plan to get two more-one for my arab, and one for the palomino. Been saving a bit here and there (oh, lol, no pun intended!!).


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

6e, that is awesome!!! Could be he was anticipating pain? What are the odds you just happened to have one of those laying around, lol.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

malinda said:


> FYI - a snaffle bit does not have shanks. Ever.
> 
> And why do people think they need a curb bit to neck rein?? You can neck rein with any bit, bosal, hackamore, halter, or even just a rope around the neck. It does not have to do with the type of bit.


OK, we'll call them a "cowboy snaffle". The funny thing is, in almost all catalogs, if it has a jointed mouth piece whether they have shanks or don't have shanks are called "snaffle" bits. But I do realize that whether it's jointed or not, if it's direct rein, they're considered a snaffle.

And true, a lot of horses can indeed neck rein with out the curb, but my Appy isn't that good yet. If you take a regular snaffle and lay the reins over his neck he'll turn into it as that's the way it's pulling his mouth just like direct reining. He's a work in progress.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

beccachow said:


> 6e, that is awesome!!! Could be he was anticipating pain? What are the odds you just happened to have one of those laying around, lol.


I don't know. Maybe. As I said, when I got him he was working on a french link shank bit which is even milder. I've been looking on the web for one, but haven't found one yet that doesn't have rubber on the bit part. LOL At any rate, I'll stick with this and see how it goes. 

The bit I had actually came with my son's horse, but he doesn't use it, so I took it over. LOL I still had a little bit of trouble with the lateral flexion in that he spins around in circles, but eventually, he did get the idea. I'm just glad there was some dry spots in the pasture.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

What is the reason that he can't be ridden in a plain snaffle? Any horse that is green-ish should be worked in a plain snaffle, IMO.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

farmergirl said:


> What is the reason that he can't be ridden in a plain snaffle? Any horse that is green-ish should be worked in a plain snaffle, IMO.


He's not green per se, just needs work on softening and giving to pressure. He came working in a shank bit working on neck reining, but at this point in time I have him in one of those Robart snaffles.

I did read up on shank bits and snaffles and I would hazard to guess that the reason why people use two hands with snaffles and one hand neck reining with shank bits is that shank bits, if the shanks are fixed and don't rotate, when the reins are lifted both sides of the bit are engaged at the same time and it is felt on both sides of the mouth. So hence, that's usually why shank bits are only ridden with one hand as two hands becomes rather pointless, but the snaffles allow for two handed communication and each hand can communicate separately on each sides of the mouth. I had to stop and think about it as people that ride western are generally in shank bits using only one hand, primarily their left while english riders generally ride in a snaffle with both hands and usually have light contact most of the time. 

extension.usu.edu/.../publication/AG_Equine_2007-03.pdf


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

farmergirl said:


> What is the reason that he can't be ridden in a plain snaffle? Any horse that is green-ish should be worked in a plain snaffle, IMO.


What I would ideally like to get him is that bit I gave the link too. Then I have the best of both worlds and I can work on whichever needs it. For now, we are working on lateral flexion in a snaffle and softening when I take up the reins. He did very well today, but when you get out on the trail and he sees something interesting or he decides to get stubborn or whatever, he leans on the bit and stiffens his neck and you really have to get after him to turn. So, we're doing a lot of one rein stops right now. So far all we're accomplishing is a lot of circles, but he's getting the idea. He's a sweet quiet horse and today he did very well just moving off leg pressure without me lifting the reins at all.

My ultimate goal someday? To be able to ride in a bosal!!!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I'm curious why you're putting great emphasis on his mouth and little on leg cues. If I'm not mistaken you said this horse was only 5, in my world that means 2 years training which pretty much makes him 5 years away from being a finished horse. I guess what I'm trying to say is perhaps your expectations are a bit high.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

wr said:


> I'm curious why you're putting great emphasis on his mouth and little on leg cues. If I'm not mistaken you said this horse was only 5, in my world that means 2 years training which pretty much makes him 5 years away from being a finished horse. I guess what I'm trying to say is perhaps your expectations are a bit high.


I'm working with him on both, but when we go to stop or turn, I generally need him to turn his head to turn or not bull through the bit to stop. LOL I don't like when I go to turn him, he pulls his head against me and go where he wants to. So, he needs to respond to the bit AND feet as far as I'm concerned and should he ever decide to bolt and take off, he needs to be soft enough to bring his head around and come to a stop.

Honestly, if a horse is stiff in his face and neck he will be stiff through out his whole body making leg cues ineffective too. If he's soft in his face and poll and neck, then he tends to be soft throughout.


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## Jay27 (Jan 11, 2010)

How is your saddle fit? Some horses go better in certain bits, but very rarely is the bit the problem when it comes to training issues (unless the bit is used really inappropriately or is causing the horse pain).


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Jay27 said:


> How is your saddle fit? Some horses go better in certain bits, but very rarely is the bit the problem when it comes to training issues (unless the bit is used really inappropriately or is causing the horse pain).


It seems to fit him and follow his rib cage pretty good. There doesn't seem to be any pressure points when I run my hands along underneath the bars. It seems a tad wider in the swell than I'd like, but our other saddle is a tad too tight, so I would almost prefer to go with a touch wide. Not bad, just ever so slightly flares away from his rib cage, but I have a felt saddle pad, so it seems fine and I do get an even pattern on his back after it comes off.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Saddel Pommel and Cantle sit level on the horse? No dry spots on your pad after your ride?


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

I have found that a loose ring snaffle works quite well for suppling a horse that likes to lean against your hand. He should turn and stop from your seat with only mild direction from the rein. If you are having to turn him like you are steering a car, then you really ought to be working more on his responsiveness to your seat and legs. That part comes first, not last.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

southerngurl said:


> Saddel Pommel and Cantle sit level on the horse? No dry spots on your pad after your ride?


Yep!


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

I ride Becca in a snaffle, one handed and she neck reins like a dream. It can be done, and the two are not mutually exclusive.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

We ride only with snaffles. I think that a horse that doesn't respond well in a snaffle usually needs more ground work. Do you round pen before you ride. If our horses are continually fighting something like backing then during that ride, we do an awful lot of backing.

I guess my attitude is that it's usually more about the training than it is about the bit.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Nope because we don't have a round pen at the moment. LOL But yes, we do do ground work.  

On the neck reining, I do realize that people can neck rein with a snaffle, but for sake of argument here since that seems to be the way it's going as I'm not arguing whether people CAN neck rein in a snaffle is that most snaffles are used two handed and curbs are used one handed as pulling the head around on a curb bit really puts a lot of pressure there and since the bit magnifies the pressure, then you don't want to have to reach down and pull his head around. And honestly I didn't get into this or ask the question to argue over whether a person can neck rein in a snaffle or what exactly a snaffle is or what a curb bit is or isn't or all that. I was just looking for exercises to make him softer when on him. I've gotten a few of those from here and beyond and they've worked pretty good. 

For the second argument, I realize legs and seat are important.  BUT, when out riding on the trail, if you're putting on leg pressure and he's not responding, then the bit comes into play. Generally speaking if a horse never needed a bit and all of them were so awesome at riding by seat and leg alone then all of us would be riding around bridleless. LOL But as it stands, he's not a perfect horse, he's not finished, he's not polished and he's learning. 

He is doing better. Thank you for the tips I could use and I did find them helpful. He did fine. Doesn't mean he'll do as well every day, but it's a start. And he's doing fairly well on his one rein stops and lateral flexion. Not as well as I'd like, but he's a work in progress. 

Thanks again for the help and advice and a few tricks. I appreciate it.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

6e said:


> For the second argument, I realize legs and seat are important.  BUT, when out riding on the trail, if you're putting on leg pressure and he's not responding, then the bit comes into play


I'm not trying to be snarky at all, but I honestly don't understand the connection you're making above. I have a horse in my barn now that is not reliable about responding to my leg aids. I will not take him out on the trail until he is. Just too dangerous, in my opinion. When a horse is not responding to leg and seat, he must be compelled by his rider to do so. Yes, the bit serves a function, but the energy and drive comes from the back end to the front end, into your receiving and soft hands. If you focus too much on what the horse is doing with the bit, you will literally shut down his hind end, which is the opposite of what you want.
Find a dressage or reined cow horse trainer and take a few lessons. They will be able to show you all sorts of exercises for suppling your horse.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

farmergirl said:


> I'm not trying to be snarky at all, but I honestly don't understand the connection you're making above. I have a horse in my barn now that is not reliable about responding to my leg aids. I will not take him out on the trail until he is. Just too dangerous, in my opinion. When a horse is not responding to leg and seat, he must be compelled by his rider to do so. Yes, the bit serves a function, but the energy and drive comes from the back end to the front end, into your receiving and soft hands. If you focus too much on what the horse is doing with the bit, you will literally shut down his hind end, which is the opposite of what you want.
> Find a dressage or reined cow horse trainer and take a few lessons. They will be able to show you all sorts of exercises for suppling your horse.


He's doing much better, but thank you.  And no I didn't take what you said as being snarky at all.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

farmergirl said:


> I'm not trying to be snarky at all, but I honestly don't understand the connection you're making above. I have a horse in my barn now that is not reliable about responding to my leg aids. I will not take him out on the trail until he is. Just too dangerous, in my opinion. When a horse is not responding to leg and seat, he must be compelled by his rider to do so. Yes, the bit serves a function, but the energy and drive comes from the back end to the front end, into your receiving and soft hands. If you focus too much on what the horse is doing with the bit, you will literally shut down his hind end, which is the opposite of what you want.
> Find a dressage or reined cow horse trainer and take a few lessons. They will be able to show you all sorts of exercises for suppling your horse.


Farmer girl is correct. If a horse is not responding to your leg you give them MORE LEG, not more BIT.

And precisely the reason you do not train a horse to neckrein with a curb (shanked) bit, is because you will need to use mostly legs, but also some direct rein to help him learn what you mean by neckreining.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

malinda and farmergirl, thanks for making my point a little more clear.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Yep and he is in a snaffle bit right now and is doing fine. Thanks.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Glad he's doing well for you


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

southerngurl said:


> Glad he's doing well for you


Yes he is. Your exercises of turning him into the fence and then suppling him before I get on and then after I get on with the one rein stops has helped a lot. Now he anticipates it and turns his head the other way before I ask him. He's doing really well. Thanks.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

6e said:


> Yes he is. Your exercises of turning him into the fence and then suppling him before I get on and then after I get on with the one rein stops has helped a lot. Now he anticipates it and turns his head the other way before I ask him. He's doing really well. Thanks.


That's great! Isn't it a wonderful feeling when you have those equine break through moments?


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

farmergirl said:


> That's great! Isn't it a wonderful feeling when you have those equine break through moments?


Yes it is, because if they're not getting it you feel like a complete failure for not being able to communicate what you want. We were working with my daughter's Thoroughbred on the lunge line. First time he had ever been on one I think, at least he hasn't been on one for a very long time and just could not get him to understand stopping and turning and going the other way. If you stepped out in front of him to stop him he would bolt past you. It took a long time. Went out today to see if he remembered anything from yesterday. Only did a couple of circles as it's all muddy again, but he did really well. I was so depressed and defeated feeling when I went in last night as I just could not get him to understand and he was wanting to bolt around the circle and my hands were killing me just holding him in and you couldn't get him to slow down or stop. I finally ran a chain under his chin and that helped with slowing him a bit so he wasn't running full tilt and then it was all you could do to get him to turn and go right. He would NOT face you and no matter how much you tapped on the lead to turn his head to the right to go right, as soon as you'd step out to drive him to the right he would spin and race to the left. Sigh But today..........he stayed at a walk and a slow trot and actually turned both ways. Still hesitant on the right, but he went. What a mess. I was about to give up on the lunging thing. He knows how to yield the hindquarters, but it didn't translate when on the lunge line. He got lots of rubs and pats and a treat today though he did so well and what a relief. I was a half heart beat away from giving up. I felt like a total failure yesterday with him.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

6e said:


> Yes it is, because if they're not getting it you feel like a complete failure for not being able to communicate what you want. We were working with my daughter's Thoroughbred on the lunge line. First time he had ever been on one I think, at least he hasn't been on one for a very long time and just could not get him to understand stopping and turning and going the other way. If you stepped out in front of him to stop him he would bolt past you. It took a long time. Went out today to see if he remembered anything from yesterday. Only did a couple of circles as it's all muddy again, but he did really well. I was so depressed and defeated feeling when I went in last night as I just could not get him to understand and he was wanting to bolt around the circle and my hands were killing me just holding him in and you couldn't get him to slow down or stop. I finally ran a chain under his chin and that helped with slowing him a bit so he wasn't running full tilt and then it was all you could do to get him to turn and go right. He would NOT face you and no matter how much you tapped on the lead to turn his head to the right to go right, as soon as you'd step out to drive him to the right he would spin and race to the left. Sigh But today..........he stayed at a walk and a slow trot and actually turned both ways. Still hesitant on the right, but he went. What a mess. I was about to give up on the lunging thing. He knows how to yield the hindquarters, but it didn't translate when on the lunge line. He got lots of rubs and pats and a treat today though he did so well and what a relief. I was a half heart beat away from giving up. I felt like a total failure yesterday with him.


Are you longeing in a bridle and bit or a longe cavesson?


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Are you longeing in a bridle and bit or a longe cavesson?


He had a saddle on, but not the bridle. Just his nylon halter at which I was cussing myself for not having a rope halter for him as he can really lean on that nylon one. How this all started was my daughter wanted to try to trot, but was too scared to trot him without being on a lunge line. So, we put her on the lunge line and had her tell him to trot. He's kind of a snotty horse sometimes and so when she'd try to urge him up into a trot he'd pin his ears and cow kick. Since that wasn't working, I told her to just get off and let us work on just getting him to understand lunging first. I told her to take the bridle off since I wasn't sure how he would react. At first when I tried to get him to trot he would rear up and kick and pin his ears. It took quite awhile for him not to act like a snot, but he never really got to the place where he was keeping his head tipped into the circle. His head was generally high and tipped towards the outside and that's generally the direction he would yank you as well. We finally quit where he was at least stopping and would turn to go left, but were still having trouble going right. 

But yesterday I went out just to see what he remembered and he did really well both directions. He did better to the left than the right, but he did pretty good and he kept it at a nice controlled walk or slow trot if I kissed at him and not like it was a mini race track. We only did about 3 circles in either direction as we're back to a whole bunch of mud again. But I guess he needed over night to chew it over. He did much better and didn't pin his ears or wring his tail at me when asked. He's head of the pecking order out here and sometimes he likes to act dominate over the people too and show his displeasure. 

This is the horse that we asked about being cinchy. It's interesting, we were just watching a Pat Parelli show the other night that was talking about horses that have large withers like his and muscles that have atrophied from an ill fitting saddle and of course they had the answer with a saddle pad filled with air that lifts the front of the saddle off the shoulders, but we looked that saddle pad up and it was $400! Eeeks. A little much for a saddle pad. She took on my husbands saddle that is a tad narrower and then we got her wither pads that are basically doing the same thing by lifting the front of the saddle up off his withers and then feeling under the saddle it's not pinching on his shoulders or else where, but I don't know what kind of saddle he's been wearing all these years either, but even with all that he was still a tad cinchy and would pin his ears and wring his tail. Well, in searching for something to help my daughter with his attitude, I ran across something from John Lyons on it and his suggestion was every time they start to act cinchy, to take their muzzle between your two hands and rub it as though over doing it on loving on them. Then go back to what you were doing. I told her to try this and honestly, after a couple of days of this, it really did work. He was far more reluctant to act snotty when getting the saddle on. I was surprised. Someone suggested that we smack him when he acts that way, but I figured if he was dreading being saddled anyway, smacking him would only confirm it. John Lyons suggestion does nothing to hurt him, is a tad annoying, and it works. I am still concerned that he carried his back sort of dipped, but I can't see paying $400 for a saddle pad and shims. Pretty soon we've spent WAY more in gear than we ever paid for the horse, especially since we bought him from a rancher out here for $150. LOL


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Oh, to add, my daughter, when she asks him to trot loves to throw his head in the air, and I did consider, when he's actually got the idea of lunging in both directions, putting side reins on him to help teach him. I don't know though.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Honestly, my recommendation is that you get a professional trainer to help you. Longeing in USPC is not even permitted till a member is a C2.
You should be longeing in a bridle and snaffle or a longeing cavesson. Using a chain is asking for trouble. I've never longed in a chain and I never would. I did however see a horse totally flip out being longed with one.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Honestly, my recommendation is that you get a professional trainer to help you. Longeing in USPC is not even permitted till a member is a C2.
> You should be longeing in a bridle and snaffle or a longeing cavesson. Using a chain is asking for trouble. I've never longed in a chain and I never would. I did however see a horse totally flip out being longed with one.


Oh, I didn't put one on him till he was pretty settled.  I didn't use it while he was acting stupid. He just wasn't responding to the "whoa". If he had decided to totally flip out, I would have just let him go and not faught him.  Next though is a rope halter. That way it makes it a little more uncomfortable for him to lean on the halter.  We would never put it on while he was flipping out. Trust me.  Only after he was tired, but was still refusing to stop. That helped with the stop and I would quicker use a chain under his chin than I would a bit in his mouth.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Honestly, my recommendation is that you get a professional trainer to help you. Longeing in USPC is not even permitted till a member is a C2.
> You should be longeing in a bridle and snaffle or a longeing cavesson. Using a chain is asking for trouble. I've never longed in a chain and I never would. I did however see a horse totally flip out being longed with one.


Oh, the reason why we don't have a trainer is there isn't a professional trainer around here that will work "with the person" for over 50 miles and now, we don't have a trailer. Most of them will train the horse, not the person. That doesn't help with maintaining them.  Out where we are is all ranches and the way these guys break their horses is they rope them, throw a saddle on and buck it out. Most people haven't a clue what "natural horsemanship" is and even the girl that went through the Pony Club here, she gave up lunging her horse because he wouldn't do it and the horse is one of the most stubborn horses I've seen and he was a level 1 dressage horse. So, that's the kind of people that are here. We had a man come pick up a mare we had for sale that my son couldn't catch, much less ride and he put her in a slant load and didn't bother to tie her in and I asked him if he wanted me to tie her as she kept trying to get out from under the divider and he said, "Nahh. She bumps her head and puts some knots on her head a few times, she'll quit it" That's the basic horse mentality where we're at. So help? Not within an hours drive and that's just not economically feasible for us especially with our stock trailer down now. (the tie the attaches to the leaf springs between the axles broke and now one of the leaf springs is up against the floor). So, no way to haul horses right now anyway. And NO ONE will drive out here. A few of the good trainers that are around are so snotty that you can't talk to them and expect to get any help. I guess they see everyone as cowboys and unless you drive a Cadillac Escalade, they're not going to give you the time of day. Trust me. We've been around most of the horse people in both the show circuits and on the ranches. The girl that we bought this horse for from our son, we paid quite a bit of money for him and we STILL haven't gotten the papers for him and she was SUPPOSED to come out and help him with the horse and she never showed up and when we called she said she forgot and then we said we'd meet her and she agreed so that we could at least get his papers and she was a no-show and said she had to work, but never bothered to tell us. Sigh So, now you know what we're working with. The ONLY farrier we could get to come out to where we are isn't even a certified farrier, he's just a guy that started out learning on one of the feed lots in western KS. So, if we ever run into some major hoof problems we're up a creek as no one will come to where we're at. Most of these ranchers don't trim feet. There's 8 horses down the road from us and honestly, I've never seen a halter on any of them. I doubt they're even halter broke much less have any shots or hooves trimmed and that's how people view them. Natural horsemanship? LOL Not out here. They have at the rodeos out here a game where they bring in one of the ranch horses and several cowboys manage to saddle and bridle it and the team that does it the fastest and can get on it wins. Fun to watch, but that's how they break horses out here and it shows in these two we got. The Thoroughbred, he has his own way of doing things and he's far more reactive than thinking, but what makes him ok is that he's so darn lazy it's all you can do to get him up into a trot. And the mare was a barrel horse that the gal had been racing, but she is barn sour/buddy sour, rigid in her body and just difficult to deal with. The guy said he had a cinch break on her and she blew up and him and saddle went one way and she went the other and he laughed about it and said he just got another cinch. (she's my husband's horse) and he handles her quite well. She has a lot of potential but I don't know how they ever got her in the ring. The girl is the one that raced her and said she couldn't stand her as she was always tossing her head. She does do that when she wants to go one direction and you're making her go the other. She's going through lots of ground work at the moment. 
So, this is what we have. And so many times, when I was looking for a horse and I went to see a few, what they were advertised as is NOT what they were. I finally had to go to a riding stable that I knew of to get one and that's where I found my Appy. But if you ask people about that riding stable they'll tell you to stay away from him. That he's a horse trader, and he is. He buys horses, has his sons break them, then uses them for paid trail rides. So this Appy has A LOT of miles on him. But you know, I knew what I was looking for and I prayed about it before I went and I rode him and I've been in love with him ever since and has done wonderful at at least trying to do what I ask. That's why someone mentioned that they wouldn't ride unless they had seat control. This horse has been for 3 hour trail rides with people that didn't know squat about horses. Old people, little kids and everything in between. So no, he doesn't know all that stuff. All they needed him to do was go and stop. And he does. He doesn't spook, he's quiet, he'll go with a group or by himself. People told me that man drugs his horses and to stay away, but he was not drugged and is my baby. But that was the only place that had horses for sale that I knew somewhat of what they did because we used to go trail ride there on occassion. 

So, now you can see why we're sort of doing this alone and why I ask a lot of question. I don't come for chastisement...........just advice. I can only learn so much from Clinton Anderson and when I run into a snag, then I have a problem. They don't always show you "what to do if.....". 

Are there really good trainers out here? Probably. But they don't work with the people and they charge a fortune. Money we don't have. I'd rather put the money into vet care, farrier bills and feed and work with them the best we know. Southurngirl had some exercises for suppling the Appy that has worked very well and gotten him to turn around my foot instead of staying stiff. I trust him, he's a sweet, quiet, willing horse, he just doesn't know as much as I'd like. But he tries hard. So, we get ideas and we try them. I'm not totally horse stupid, but don't remember a lot of what I knew when I was young and we were showing. You tend to forget a lot and back then there really wasn't such a thing as "natural horsemanship" or I should say, the saying wasn't coined back then and no one used those techniques.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

6e said:


> Yes it is, because if they're not getting it you feel like a complete failure for not being able to communicate what you want.


Ha, reminds me of an ordeal I had with that palamino I started last summer. One day I went and caught him up, did our usual groundwork, tacking up and got started with riding work. I got out in the field and started to do some circles with him. He was ignoring my leg and pulling towards a certain direction and so I was trying to work through it. I started trying different exersizes to get him paying attention and freed up. He was staying stiff and off. I would stop and think for a second, everything seemed on the up and up, what is his problem? Guess I just need to get after him and work him hard until we get past this. I pulled out every trick I had, everything I could think of and just was so shocked at how he wasn't responding well. He improved a little but was still difficult. 

Finally I just decided to let him go wherever it was he was wanting to go. Maybe I'd let him get his way and then work him over there. I was at a loss, because I knew he was better than this. So he starts heading down the hill, towards the pond. It's a drop off from that angle, I just guided him around it and then back to letting him go where he wants. He goes up the next hill, turns down the path in the woods. Ok. Next thing he turns to the second pond, walks up and starts sucking down water. Poor guy was thirsty! He was just standing in the field when I caught him. I guess he'd been thinking, "I better get me a drink here pretty quick!". Then I came along, snatched him up and put him to work. Poor little guy. I never thought about it, I mean he had 24/7 access to water. I guess he was just at the point of getting real thirsty Next time I checked to see if he wanted water before we got started.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

6e said:


> That helped with the stop and I would quicker use a chain under his chin than I would a bit in his mouth.


I don;t think you're understanding me...You are supposed to longe with a bit in his mouth. That's how it's properly done.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I don;t think you're understanding me...You are supposed to longe with a bit in his mouth. That's how it's properly done.


I can't say Clinton Anderson says that. LOL His whole idea behind lunging is for respect and he uses only a rope halter on them. shrug

We might next time. We'll see.  

And I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it, at least not the very first time.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I don;t think you're understanding me...You are supposed to longe with a bit in his mouth. That's how it's properly done.


I lunge in a halter all the time. What's wrong with it?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

6e said:


> I can't say Clinton Anderson says that. LOL His whole idea behind lunging is for respect and he uses only a rope halter on them. shrug
> 
> We might next time. We'll see.
> 
> And I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it, at least not the very first time.


If this horse is a first level dressage horse, it should have been longed in a bridle and bit. Many times.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

southerngurl said:


> I lunge in a halter all the time. What's wrong with it?


With a chain? On a trained dressage horse?


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

This is not the dressage horse. This is just a Thoroughbred that's been in a pasture for years and used to bring in cattle a few times. That's it. My son's horse is the one that's the dressage horse and he won't lunge either according to the girl. She said she gave up trying and didn't lunge him after that. 

The one we were lunging with the chain is a Thoroughbred and just an old pasture horse at that.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> If this horse is a first level dressage horse, it should have been longed in a bridle and bit. Many times.


She didn't lunge it in a bit and bridle either. She said the few times she did lunge him was with a halter and two lead ropes as he wouldn't turn either. She'd have one lead rope on one side of his halter and the other running around behind his butt and to the other side of the halter and so when she wanted to turn him, she just pulled on the line around behind his behind and turn him manually, which is the exact opposite of what Clinton Anderson says where you want them to turn on the hindquarters and toward you, not away.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

6e said:


> She didn't lunge it in a bit and bridle either. She said the few times she did lunge him was with a halter and two lead ropes as he wouldn't turn either. She'd have one lead rope on one side of his halter and the other running around behind his butt and to the other side of the halter and so when she wanted to turn him, she just pulled on the line around behind his behind and turn him manually, which is the exact opposite of what Clinton Anderson says where you want them to turn on the hindquarters and toward you, not away.


She's the one who came through USPC?


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> She's the one who came through USPC?


Yeah. Go figure. This is also the horse that you can't get to go unless you pop him in the behind with the lead rope or a dressage whip. She went through the local pony club with him and competed in hunter jumper with him and said he had gone through level 1 dressage, but I can't imagine how as you can't hardly get him to move. How she ever got him to go over jumps is beyond me. LOL And when we told her about him planting all four feet and not moving she said, "Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you about that. Just use that little whip I gave you". But when you use it, he bucks just a bit. Not bad, but enough to tell you he's not happy. She was supposed to come out and work with the horse and our son, but she's been a no show twice now. :grump:


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

She had him in a very nice, very expensive, training stable here that is run by a man that has competed many times in the olympics and had trained under him also. And she said that he would do the same thing with the trainer. 

I do know he's very pushy and uses his head a lot to move you out of his way which is extremely annoying. We thought about taking him all the way back to the basics on like respecting space and such, but he's 16, almost 17 years old and it seems kind of late in the game now.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

6e said:


> Yeah. Go figure. This is also the horse that you can't get to go unless you pop him in the behind with the lead rope or a dressage whip. She went through the local pony club with him and competed in hunter jumper with him and said he had gone through level 1 dressage, but I can't imagine how as you can't hardly get him to move. How she ever got him to go over jumps is beyond me. LOL And when we told her about him planting all four feet and not moving she said, "Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you about that. Just use that little whip I gave you". But when you use it, he bucks just a bit. Not bad, but enough to tell you he's not happy. She was supposed to come out and work with the horse and our son, but she's been a no show twice now. :grump:


She must not have gone very far in USPC if that's how she longes. She doesn't even use the terminology correctly. It's first level...not Level One. Maybe she was making all this up?


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I find it really interesting to explore "natural horsemanship", it's very different from the way I learned to ground work horses waaaaay back in Pony Club and dressage training days as a kid. The whole focus on longeing is for a different purpose and is done very differently. When I was a kid, I longed my horses with the intent of getting rhythm, teaching them to maintain an even gait, setting the head with a cavesson, bridle and bit, helping the horse to learn to take a steady contact with the snaffle at a trot. 

Now I see the natural horsemen teaching longeing for respect - teaching the horse to read their body cues, watch the trainer, react to small motions and really pay attention. This is NOT for teaching the horse's body rhythm or contact with a bit or carriage. I notice that Clinton Anderson is NOT going for a classical contact or carriage as a dressage horse would have. What he does works very well and is particularly good for problem or green horses. I see it can be used to limber up and soften a dressage horse too, or get a jumper to pay better attention to its rider. It's awesome for ground manners. 

However, I do see two very different methods of longeing for two very different reasons. I don't like the idea of the chain though, I agree that can be dangerous. If you are going for the natural horsemanship method of ground work, get a good rope halter, they're cheap and work well, the nylon halter is pretty useless and will teach him bad habits.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> She must not have gone very far in USPC if that's how she longes. She doesn't even use the terminology correctly. It's first level...not Level One. Maybe she was making all this up?


She might have said level one. I know she's not making up the hunter/jumper part because I saw a lot of pictures. So, we're good there. I honestly don't know on the dressage. I do know where she was keeping him and the man's reputation and the cost. Both stables for that sort of thing around here are very well known and pretty much everyone stays away from the second one as the guy is a real jerk. If you really want to get to the top, ok, but expect some verbal abuse in the process. LOL


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

GrannyCarol said:


> I find it really interesting to explore "natural horsemanship", it's very different from the way I learned to ground work horses waaaaay back in Pony Club and dressage training days as a kid. The whole focus on longeing is for a different purpose and is done very differently. When I was a kid, I longed my horses with the intent of getting rhythm, teaching them to maintain an even gait, setting the head with a cavesson, bridle and bit, helping the horse to learn to take a steady contact with the snaffle at a trot.
> 
> Now I see the natural horsemen teaching longeing for respect - teaching the horse to read their body cues, watch the trainer, react to small motions and really pay attention. This is NOT for teaching the horse's body rhythm or contact with a bit or carriage. I notice that Clinton Anderson is NOT going for a classical contact or carriage as a dressage horse would have. What he does works very well and is particularly good for problem or green horses. I see it can be used to limber up and soften a dressage horse too, or get a jumper to pay better attention to its rider. It's awesome for ground manners.
> 
> However, I do see two very different methods of longeing for two very different reasons. I don't like the idea of the chain though, I agree that can be dangerous. If you are going for the natural horsemanship method of ground work, get a good rope halter, they're cheap and work well, the nylon halter is pretty useless and will teach him bad habits.


Clinton Anderson's whole thing is gaining control of the feet. He lunges purely for respect issues and not about carriage. That's why he does A LOT of changing directions. He works really good for those of us that are more into western than english.

I agree about the rope halter, but the chain worked for slowing him down. It doesn't surprise me that he's used to that as almost all the Thoroughbreds on the track near us, almost all of them either have a chain over their nose or under their chin. I suspect he did too as he was ran as a 2 year old.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Yeah, Clinton is a whole 'nother thing for this old dog!  I went to one of his clinics and it was fascinating. He's pretty funny, but I didn't want to be "worked" as the audience like he works the horses, you almost think that is the fun he gets from the whole thing.. hehe I learned a lot about working a horse, it was worth the money and the trip.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I feel Clint Anderson offers some great insight, I just can't remember him advocating the use of a stud chain.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

GrannyCarol said:


> Yeah, Clinton is a whole 'nother thing for this old dog!  I went to one of his clinics and it was fascinating. He's pretty funny, but I didn't want to be "worked" as the audience like he works the horses, you almost think that is the fun he gets from the whole thing.. hehe I learned a lot about working a horse, it was worth the money and the trip.


He holds clinics at his ranch in TX that I would LOVE to go to if we had a way to haul the horses and the money to do it. I really like him. He is easy to understand and easy to follow. I like him a lot.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

wr said:


> I feel Clint Anderson offers some great insight, I just can't remember him advocating the use of a stud chain.


He uses rope halters and you use what you have available and he did fine and it turned out fine. So, all is good.  But I have seen Clinton Anderson advocate the use of a shock collar on horses. LOL


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

wr said:


> I feel Clint Anderson offers some great insight, I just can't remember him advocating the use of a stud chain.


But I will say, using the chain was much kinder to him than letting him run himself into the dirt which is exactly what he was doing.  He will go to a rope halter as soon as I have one. And he did not have enough pressure put on him to cause any harm to him at all. He is not an explosive horse.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I thought of you yesterday. I was at the MD Horse Expo and got a new Robart for my Palomino and was checking out the snaffles for you! Shame they are so costly.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

beccachow said:


> I thought of you yesterday. I was at the MD Horse Expo and got a new Robart for my Palomino and was checking out the snaffles for you! Shame they are so costly.


Yeah they are. I am so glad I had this one here already!! I don't think my husband would ever agree to me paying almost $60 for a bit, but that Robart one worked really well on my Appy and he quit gaping when I ask him to give at his poll a little. He's a sweet horse and I adore him.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> With a chain? On a trained dressage horse?


No, a rope halter. But you had said only to use a bit. I just hadn't heard that before. A bit does give better control if the horse is difficult, and I've done it to get them giving to a bit, but I've not had trouble in a halter.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

6e said:


> She didn't lunge it in a bit and bridle either. She said the few times she did lunge him was with a halter and two lead ropes as he wouldn't turn either. She'd have one lead rope on one side of his halter and the other running around behind his butt and to the other side of the halter and so when she wanted to turn him, she just pulled on the line around behind his behind and turn him manually, which is the exact opposite of what Clinton Anderson says where you want them to turn on the hindquarters and toward you, not away.


Yes, that's double lunging, ground driving. It has it's use as well. I train them to turn into me first. What you're talking about, to me, is just to get them getting the idea of it, so you can then have them ahead of you, being driven. Some people do that before riding. It's not something I normally do.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

southerngurl said:


> Yes, that's double lunging, ground driving. It has it's use as well. I train them to turn into me first. What you're talking about, to me, is just to get them getting the idea of it, so you can then have them ahead of you, being driven. Some people do that before riding. It's not something I normally do.


OK.  She said that was the only way she could longe him as he would turn and come into her every time. She said she finally just gave up and didn't do it any more.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Well it's good for him to turn towards her! lol


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

southerngurl said:


> Well it's good for him to turn towards her! lol


Yeah. I guess he has the opposite problem our Thoroughbred does. He turns in and then freezes and won't move. The Thoroughbred won't turn in and won't stop. LOL Two horses, two different problems. But the dressage horse is the one that is pretty much bomb proof, so I can put up with the reluctance to move.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

WHen he turns in, up the pressure on him to keep moving because it needs to be YOUR idea for him to stop. I warned you about the appys, lol.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

beccachow said:


> WHen he turns in, up the pressure on him to keep moving because it needs to be YOUR idea for him to stop. I warned you about the appys, lol.


This is the paint horse of my sons. I actually have not tried longing the Appy yet. I ride him more than anything. I thought about riding today, but Eeeks that wind bites. I changed my mind. LOL

We have 5 horses total.

A 5 year old Arab that is not broke and is a pasture ornament mostly.

A 10 year old Thoroughbred that was raced at Eureka Downs as a 2 year old till he cracked his knee and was retired to a rancher near us that rode him to gather cattle sometimes and then was sold to us for $150.

Then we have a 10 year old QH mare that was a barrel horse and as far as I can tell, that's all she knows and is a REAL handful under saddle. She's my husband's horse. 

Then we have the 16 year old paint horse that belonged to the Pony Club gal and was used as a hunter/jumper, and then sold to us. He's a sweet horse and is pretty much bomb proof, but is stubborn as the day is long and would rather sleep as opposed to move. He's the one that will keep stopping when longing and the girl used two ropes on him.

Then we have my 5 year old Appy that I was asking for suppling exercises for. He's my baby.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

This is my son and the hunter/jumper paint horse of his.










This is my daughter's Thoroughbred being cinchy










And this is her and her horse.


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