# 9mm side arm



## am1too

I know virtually nothing about gun value or makes these days. I went shopping the other day. WOW!

I'm looking for good reliable value. Name means nothing to me at least yet.

I'm looking to protect myself and critters from small animals up to say 150 max. I have bob cats and panthers (have seen the kitties while walking the dogs) in my area with the usual *****, skunks, opossums and drop off pets.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

am1too said:


> I know virtually nothing about gun value or makes these days. I went shopping the other day. WOW!
> 
> I'm looking for good reliable value. Name means nothing to me at least yet.
> 
> I'm looking to protect myself and critters from small animals up to say 150 max. I have bob cats and panthers (have seen the kitties while walking the dogs) in my area with the usual *****, skunks, opossums and drop off pets.


150 max what , pounds weight , yards , meters , feet

you say you have no experience , what have you shot for guns , anything , I teach kids to shoot so no experience isn't an issue but it means you will need some training and practice


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## Malamute

Handguns are the easiest thing to carry and have on you when you need them. They are also the most difficult firearm to use well.

9mm is a fair light defensive caliber. A 357 revolver may be easier to learn to use well, and easier to shoot well with less experience.

One issue many have, they choose the lightest and most compact gun because they are easy to carry, but they are the hardest to shoot well, even for someone with experience. Everything in life is a tradeoff in some way. Something in the "duty size" (what police would carry unconcealed, either auto or revolver) is more likely to be the best balance between ease of carry and ease of shooting. See if you can get some practice with different guns at a range or with friends. It used to be common to tell new shooters to start with a 22, but they seem out of fashion. 22 ammo isnt as easy to get as it once was either.

If stuck on the 9mm, its hard to beat the quality, reliabilty and general ease of use of a Glock 19. Buying a cheaper gun just because its cheaper may end up with you not being happy with it, or being able to use it as well.

If you are NOT willing to actually learn to use a handgun well and accurately, and regularly practice, I would strongly suggest NOT getting or carrying one. When you are talking about shooting animals, the chances of wounding one and leaving it to die a slow agonizing death is cruel. Despite TV and Hollywoods portrayal of them handguns are very hard to hit well and consistantly with for most people, unless at extremely close range. Guns are not a magic talisman that protect you just by having them. They take serious learning and practice to be moderately proficient with them in the sort of use you describe.

If its a "have handy around the place" gun, a shotgun or light caliber rifle may be more practical. A 22 mag up to a 223 bolt action may do you more good.

Cats bothering people is pretty rare. Protecting your animals, I'd use a rifle, even if I had a pistol on my belt.

The older Savage 22 magnum/20 gauge combination guns were great for varmint control. If your budget can handle it, a Rossi model 92 type carbine in 357 cal may be a good alternative. Very easy to use, theres a variety of light to relatively powerful loads availlable, and easy to operate. If you can get one with the 16" barrel, they are pretty handy to have around and get in and out of vehicles.


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## am1too

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> 150 max what , pounds weight , yards , meters , feet
> 
> you say you have no experience , what have you shot for guns , anything , I teach kids to shoot so no experience isn't an issue but it means you will need some training and practice


You really mean people can hit anything with a hand gun at 150 yards or meters? Dang they must be good. I think of hand guns a close range instruments. A small panther kitty at 150 yards would be hard to hit even with a rifle and scope. Sorry I didn't put pounds after the 150.


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## am1too

Malamute said:


> Handguns are the easiest thing to carry and have on you when you need them. They are also the most difficult firearm to use well.
> 
> 9mm is a fair light defensive caliber. A 357 revolver may be easier to learn to use well, and easier to shoot well with less experience.
> 
> One issue many have, they choose the lightest and most compact gun because they are easy to carry, but they are the hardest to shoot well, even for someone with experience. Everything in life is a tradeoff in some way. Something in the "duty size" (what police would carry unconcealed, either auto or revolver) is more likely to be the best balance between ease of carry and ease of shooting. See if you can get some practice with different guns at a range or with friends. It used to be common to tell new shooters to start with a 22, but they seem out of fashion. 22 ammo isnt as easy to get as it once was either.
> 
> If stuck on the 9mm, its hard to beat the quality, reliabilty and general ease of use of a Glock 19. Buying a cheaper gun just because its cheaper may end up with you not being happy with it, or being able to use it as well.
> 
> If you are NOT willing to actually learn to use a handgun well and accurately, and regularly practice, I would strongly suggest NOT getting or carrying one. When you are talking about shooting animals, the chances of wounding one and leaving it to die a slow agonizing death is cruel. Despite TV and Hollywoods portrayal of them handguns are very hard to hit well and consistantly with for most people, unless at extremely close range. Guns are not a magic talisman that protect you just by having them. They take serious learning and practice to be moderately proficient with them in the sort of use you describe.
> 
> If its a "have handy around the place" gun, a shotgun or light caliber rifle may be more practical. A 22 mag up to a 223 bolt action may do you more good.
> 
> Cats bothering people is pretty rare. Protecting your animals, I'd use a rifle, even if I had a pistol on my belt.
> 
> The older Savage 22 magnum/20 gauge combination guns were great for varmint control. If your budget can handle it, a Rossi model 92 type carbine in 357 cal may be a good alternative. Very easy to use, theres a variety of light to relatively powerful loads availlable, and easy to operate. If you can get one with the 16" barrel, they are pretty handy to have around and get in and out of vehicles.


First let me say thank you for your very reasonable post.

The reason for 9 mm is because that is what has been suggested to me by another person. I just need more than one persons input. I certainly hold a sales clerk's input with great suspicion. They'll say anything to make a sale.

One of the local gun dealers has an indoor range and will let you try a gun with 5 rounds for a buck a shot.

With 2-3 dogs on a leash I'm not about to carry a rifle. I don't have the inclination to sit around with a rifle unless I have a persistent problem.

When it comes to wild life visiting my place and being possible threats to my animals, I'm not about to go chasing after a possible shot animal especially with a dog or two on a leash. I think if I at least scare them they'll make a habit of avoiding my place unless food gets real scarce. 

What do you mean by regular shooting or practice?

I'm not looking for a panacea of sorts. I've just noticed some undesirable changes in wild life in my neck of the woods such as a disappearance of deer and the appearance of panthers. Wild life isn't a real problem at this point, but I see it going in that direction.

My interest is say a 100 ft range. If I were to observe and think something beyond that had more than a passing interest I'd close in on it. If it had no real interest it would probably move along.


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## DEKE01

After trying many handguns, I opted for Springfield XDM 9mm. It is light enough for me to carry every day, every where, has a grip safety to prevent a moment of mindlessness from becoming a serious problem but the safety doesn't slow you down when you need to fire in a hurry. It has a long enough barrel to be fairly accurate. I was a novice and after 4 long days of training and 800 rounds of practice, I could routinely hit a man sized target in the face, sometimes in the eyes I was targeting, from 50 yards. 

The Glock is a great gun, but no safety scares me. With the grip safety of the XDM, I can pick up the gun out of my night stand in the dark and not worry about an accidental trigger pull.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

so your looking for something to potentially shoot a medium size dog or large cat out to a 100 feet in a defensive or semi defensive situation with 2 dogs on a leash in your weak hand 

150 yards would be fairly far I teach pistol to kids and we do shoot targets to 100 meters at 100 meters the body of the Ram is about the size of a 2 liter bottle laying on it's side , but if they hit it 30% of the time they are doing very well

so lets just say milk jug sized target , this is about where most people are able to get to with a decent trigger and service size pistol 
service size pistol is 4-5 inch barrel generally with 4 1/2 being very common

while often we might suggest a 38/357 revolver mainly for their great versatility and extreme simplicity of use you have another problem dogs in your other hand so reloading is going to be compromised 

9mm isn't exactly a powerhouse of a round but in your situation it isn't so bad your going to need to operate the pistol one handed , 9mm will be easier to handle 1 handed and your not going to be able to reload easily so the more rounds will be a benefit

the larger the pistol the less it recoils the faster you get back on target but the harder it is to carry a compromise to this is a polymer gun that gives you more size with less weight there are also a lot of really good polymer guns out there , when we say polymer people the image of an all plastic gun this is not the case , basically the grip is very durable plastic with a set of aluminium rails secured into it an then a steel slide that rides on the rails 

so a service size 9mm would probaly work well for you , trigger will need to be reasonable but they have come a long ways , 
some modles to consider 

ruger SR9 or the no frill version ruger just released the E9 basically the same gun btu with some of the features people didn't really like any way removed and only one magazine you will want an additional magazine or 3 but the 75 dollars the E9 version saves will let you buy 3 more mags and be at about the same cost as the SR9 with it's factory 2 magazines 

the S&W M&P 9mm is another good choice this gun is gaining great popularity in action pistol sports like IDPA and USPSA and parts are becoming very available as well as accessories , this is the first gun in a long time to to give glock a run for it's money in this sport and with police departments 


both of these guns are also available with a thumb safety for those not ready to trust a gun with out one 

parts and accessories availability is huge , you can buy a less expensive gun and then spend double or tipple trying to find a holster for it than you would a more commonly carried gun 

practice initially you will probably want to take a class , a NRA basic pistol class would be a good start , a few hundred rounds to get used to your new pistol and then 50-100 rounds a month would be good till you feel very comfortable with your hand gun. try targets of different sizes and at different distances , make a cut out of a cat post it at 10 yards ,then 20 , 30 , 40 , 50 learn where to hold to make hits learning your limits is just as important , practice one handed as that is how you say you will be when your carrying.

guns stored bed side should be in a holster , mount it to the bed frame , head board or side of night stand , but the trigger should be covered 

glocks aren't dangerous if you learn that the holster is a part of the safety you keep it in a holster all the time not just loose 

finding the gun that fits in your and is very important , trigger is next you need to be able to hold the gun steady on target and squeeze the trigger without the trigger pull pulling the gun off the target , less movement and less weight make keeping on target easier but you need some amount of weight to keep from accidentally discharging around 5 pounds is common , even in competition most guns are required to hold up a 3 pound weight with the trigger without releasing

finding a range to rent guns at is a very good way of finding what fits and works for you


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## Roadking

I personally carry a Ruger P-85 in 9mm, and have since I bought it at 18. I am proficient with it, but to take a shot at 100 feet... not a good idea. It's not a threat and chances are you will simply wound it. Could I hit it? Yup. Could I be certain of a kill shot? Not necessarily, and that would bother me. Granted it has a high cap mag and I have plenty of follow up shots, but I'd prefer a one and done shot.
Bring it in to 50 feet and I'd say 9mm.
Only for the purpose of humanely taking care of business.
Just my $0.03 (adjusted for inflation).

Matt


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## willbuck1

If you actually might have to shoot a mountain lion I would recommend a .357 Sig or 10 mm in autos and .357 or .41 in revolvers.


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## FireMaker

In back country I carry my Ruger with 170 grn hard lead, 357. It is not what you go hunting with but is strictly defensive. It has great penetration and expansion with critters.


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## am1too

willbuck1 said:


> If you actually might have to shoot a mountain lion I would recommend a .357 Sig or 10 mm in autos and .357 or .41 in revolvers.


Are you suggesting a 9 mm would only make a 100/150 cat angry at 50/100 feet? If it got much closer I'd be putting it in their mouth. Surely I couldn't miss at that range. But remember I might have 2 dogs for it to consider as well.


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## am1too

DEKE01 said:


> After trying many handguns, I opted for Springfield XDM 9mm. It is light enough for me to carry every day, every where, has a grip safety to prevent a moment of mindlessness from becoming a serious problem but the safety doesn't slow you down when you need to fire in a hurry. It has a long enough barrel to be fairly accurate. I was a novice and after 4 long days of training and 800 rounds of practice, I could routinely hit a man sized target in the face, sometimes in the eyes I was targeting, from 50 yards.
> 
> The Glock is a great gun, but no safety scares me. With the grip safety of the XDM, I can pick up the gun out of my night stand in the dark and not worry about an accidental trigger pull.


Ah yes a safety is a must have. Nice of you to way in. How's the farm coming along?


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## am1too

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> so your looking for something to potentially shoot a medium size dog or large cat out to a 100 feet in a defensive or semi defensive situation with 2 dogs on a leash in your weak hand
> 
> 150 yards would be fairly far I teach pistol to kids and we do shoot targets to 100 meters at 100 meters the body of the Ram is about the size of a 2 liter bottle laying on it's side , but if they hit it 30% of the time they are doing very well
> 
> so lets just say milk jug sized target , this is about where most people are able to get to with a decent trigger and service size pistol
> service size pistol is 4-5 inch barrel generally with 4 1/2 being very common
> 
> while often we might suggest a 38/357 revolver mainly for their great versatility and extreme simplicity of use you have another problem dogs in your other hand so reloading is going to be compromised
> 
> 9mm isn't exactly a powerhouse of a round but in your situation it isn't so bad your going to need to operate the pistol one handed , 9mm will be easier to handle 1 handed and your not going to be able to reload easily so the more rounds will be a benefit
> 
> the larger the pistol the less it recoils the faster you get back on target but the harder it is to carry a compromise to this is a polymer gun that gives you more size with less weight there are also a lot of really good polymer guns out there , when we say polymer people the image of an all plastic gun this is not the case , basically the grip is very durable plastic with a set of aluminium rails secured into it an then a steel slide that rides on the rails
> 
> so a service size 9mm would probaly work well for you , trigger will need to be reasonable but they have come a long ways ,
> some modles to consider
> 
> ruger SR9 or the no frill version ruger just released the E9 basically the same gun btu with some of the features people didn't really like any way removed and only one magazine you will want an additional magazine or 3 but the 75 dollars the E9 version saves will let you buy 3 more mags and be at about the same cost as the SR9 with it's factory 2 magazines
> 
> the S&W M&P 9mm is another good choice this gun is gaining great popularity in action pistol sports like IDPA and USPSA and parts are becoming very available as well as accessories , this is the first gun in a long time to to give glock a run for it's money in this sport and with police departments
> 
> 
> both of these guns are also available with a thumb safety for those not ready to trust a gun with out one
> 
> parts and accessories availability is huge , you can buy a less expensive gun and then spend double or tipple trying to find a holster for it than you would a more commonly carried gun
> 
> practice initially you will probably want to take a class , a NRA basic pistol class would be a good start , a few hundred rounds to get used to your new pistol and then 50-100 rounds a month would be good till you feel very comfortable with your hand gun. try targets of different sizes and at different distances , make a cut out of a cat post it at 10 yards ,then 20 , 30 , 40 , 50 learn where to hold to make hits learning your limits is just as important , practice one handed as that is how you say you will be when your carrying.
> 
> guns stored bed side should be in a holster , mount it to the bed frame , head board or side of night stand , but the trigger should be covered
> 
> glocks aren't dangerous if you learn that the holster is a part of the safety you keep it in a holster all the time not just loose
> 
> finding the gun that fits in your and is very important , trigger is next you need to be able to hold the gun steady on target and squeeze the trigger without the trigger pull pulling the gun off the target , less movement and less weight make keeping on target easier but you need some amount of weight to keep from accidentally discharging around 5 pounds is common , even in competition most guns are required to hold up a 3 pound weight with the trigger without releasing
> 
> finding a range to rent guns at is a very good way of finding what fits and works for you


 If I can restrain 2/3 dogs weighing in at round 110 total is my weak hand, how much strength is needed to fire even a 45? I didn't remember my military officer's side arm being the tough.

I thought most pistol mags were 7 rounds. Even if they were only 5 rounds, I really couldn't imagine needing more unless there were a pack of animals. NTL a second mag wouldn't hurt anything. Just not to the level of fear, just yet.

You do make some good points though. Thanks


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## am1too

Roadking said:


> I personally carry a Ruger P-85 in 9mm, and have since I bought it at 18. I am proficient with it, but to take a shot at 100 feet... not a good idea. It's not a threat and chances are you will simply wound it. Could I hit it? Yup. Could I be certain of a kill shot? Not necessarily, and that would bother me. Granted it has a high cap mag and I have plenty of follow up shots, but I'd prefer a one and done shot.
> Bring it in to 50 feet and I'd say 9mm.
> Only for the purpose of humanely taking care of business.
> Just my $0.03 (adjusted for inflation).
> 
> Matt


Certainly I would shoot fully intending to stop dead in its tracks. If I only wounded it and slowed it down, I'd get another chance at closer range. Are animals like humans high on narcotics? Fear would strike me at 10 feet for sure. Dogs are on 6 ft leashes. And yes I can hold 2 60 pound dogs in one hand. Have done so with a 120 pound dog in the other hand. Glad I was wearing boots instead of tennis shoes. Woulda got drug down feet first. I've unloaded 40,000 pounds of freight in 45 minutes without power by my self. Yes the warehouse personnel were surprised.


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## am1too

willbuck1 said:


> If you actually might have to shoot a mountain lion I would recommend a .357 Sig or 10 mm in autos and .357 or .41 in revolvers.


How big are they? I'd say a panther is somewhere round 75/100 pounds max. Slightly bigger than a 'yote. That would be between my knee high 50 pound dogs and my mid thigh high GP.


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## DEKE01

am1too said:


> Ah yes a safety is a must have. Nice of you to way in. How's the farm coming along?


we closed on the deal Jan 15th. Still getting unpacked. Got a great deal on a place where the former owner acquired a bunch of stuff to get rich in Alpaca wool, lost several $100K, and then decided to sell out at a huge loss. So I got a virtually new tractor, gator, ATV, zero turn mower, 3 miles of 4 board/no climb wire fence, a big barn, paved drives, 2 irrigation reels, and a bunch of other items that I would never have spent money on. 

Built a greenhouse, a freak windstorm destroyed it a week later along with a days labor of potting plants and seed. Got a chicken coop built with 55 chicks creating material for my compost piles. Had last year's planted peach, nectarine, and plum trees assaulted by the recent cold snap and will most likely lose what little fruit I would have gotten this year. I've lost about 40% of the 60 apple trees planted last year but all the 8 pears have survived. All my experiments trying to get willows to grow have failed. 4 out of 5 mulberries are doing well. 9 out of 10 figs doing great. 0 for 5 with chestnuts. I have 50 - 60 American Persimmons coming along nicely. All 15 of the various citrus are doing well. 

And I have a project list as long as my arm. So it is a mixed bag, but I'm loving it. 

DW is very happy with her two horses by the house and the 6000 acre park across the street to ride in. Sometime in the next two weeks we have two more "free" horses that I'm taking from a friend who doesn't want them anymore.


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## am1too

DEKE01 said:


> we closed on the deal Jan 15th. Still getting unpacked. Got a great deal on a place where the former owner acquired a bunch of stuff to get rich in Alpaca wool, lost several $100K, and then decided to sell out at a huge loss. So I got a virtually new tractor, gator, ATV, zero turn mower, 3 miles of 4 board/no climb wire fence, a big barn, paved drives, 2 irrigation reels, and a bunch of other items that I would never have spent money on.
> 
> Built a greenhouse, a freak windstorm destroyed it a week later along with a days labor of potting plants and seed. Got a chicken coop built with 55 chicks creating material for my compost piles. Had last year's planted peach, nectarine, and plum trees assaulted by the recent cold snap and will most likely lose what little fruit I would have gotten this year. I've lost about 40% of the 60 apple trees planted last year but all the 8 pears have survived. All my experiments trying to get willows to grow have failed. 4 out of 5 mulberries are doing well. 9 out of 10 figs doing great. 0 for 5 with chestnuts. I have 50 - 60 American Persimmons coming along nicely. All 15 of the various citrus are doing well.
> 
> And I have a project list as long as my arm. So it is a mixed bag, but I'm loving it.
> 
> DW is very happy with her two horses by the house and the 6000 acre park across the street to ride in. Sometime in the next two weeks we have two more "free" horses that I'm taking from a friend who doesn't want them anymore.


Sounds great. Read bout your green house. Wind is a very real force here.


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## Shrek

am1too said:


> I know virtually nothing about gun value or makes these days. I went shopping the other day. WOW!
> 
> I'm looking for good reliable value. Name means nothing to me at least yet.
> 
> I'm looking to protect myself and critters from small animals up to say 150 max. I have bob cats and panthers (have seen the kitties while walking the dogs) in my area with the usual *****, skunks, opossums and drop off pets.


In a situation where you have dogs on a lead transferred to your non-dominant hand , you would have to take them into consideration as a detraction factor regardless if using a side arm ,rifle, shotgun or slingshot.

In attempting to dispatch coyotes on my place with either sidearm, carbine or shotgun I always had to safely get shed of the dogs on the leads before attempting to kill members of the hunting pack.

The few times I was successful in killing one of the coyote pack threatening us between the house and dog kennel I first got my dogs inside the house or kennel then went back out with my rifle from the house and took a shot from about 40 yards or stayed inside the outer kennel with my dogs in the inner kennel and shot with my sidearm when the coyotes came within 15 yards of the fence.

Of course after the first shot the pack scattered.

For every opportunity I had to safely take a shot at a predator coyote there were 10 times or more that I simply quickly got myself and my dogs to the safety of the main house or the kennel pen and attached tool shed / dog house to wait out the passing of the coyote pack.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

if you have the strength 40 S&w is the place to go it can deliver more energy than the typical 230gr 45 and is a bit more economical to shoot 

single stack magazines are typically 7-10 rounds the 1911 was typically 7 with the GI mags and double stack are 12-19 depending on the round and size of the gun 

most of the 40s are 13-15 rounds 

pistols are not death rays,you may want to have more rounds


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## Cornhusker

I'd vote 40 or 45 myself.
I think 9mm is a fine round, but to me, it's kind of the minimum.
I do think 9mm would kill just fine, but don't depend on ball ammo, use some good hollow points.
I've seen FMJ go right through something as small as a goose and not knock it down.
I like the idea of renting different hand guns to see what feels best and also what shoots best for you.
If one gun did it for all of us, there would just be one gun


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## am1too

Shrek said:


> Of course after the first shot the pack scattered.


This more less describes my goal. The real goal isn't to injure or kill. No they won't get a warning shot. Predatory wild life is good and necessary. I love seeing them.


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## am1too

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> if you have the strength 40 S&w is the place to go it can deliver more energy than the typical 230gr 45 and is a bit more economical to shoot
> 
> single stack magazines are typically 7-10 rounds the 1911 was typically 7 with the GI mags and double stack are 12-19 depending on the round and size of the gun
> 
> most of the 40s are 13-15 rounds
> 
> pistols are not death rays,you may want to have more rounds


Would you please provide a scenario why one would need more rounds? Thanks


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## DEKE01

am1too said:


> Would you please provide a scenario why one would need more rounds? Thanks


when the predators are firing back. 

My XDM has a 19 round mag. SO I don't carry reloads on my person. If I ever have to shoot 19 rounds, it is a bad day indeed. But it is not at all uncommon to find that in gun fights, people empty their guns...cops especially.


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## tamarackreg

I feel that the 9MM is an excellent choice for a farm gun and the potential uses you describe! A .22 is generally good enough, but the 9mm is like the .22 on steroids.

I had a Taurus M99, similar to the Beretta M92 except with adjustable sights and a much more user friendly safety. It was very accurate, reliable and held 19 rounds. The adjustable sights allow you to aim dead on for smaller targets with any type or price point ammo you choose. Farm use is different than SD in that you need to be able to place bullets on a smaller target at longer distances than most semi auto pistols are intended for as purchased.

I recommend RNFP or TCFP for farm use for 2 reasons. 

A: It is cheaper. Impromptu range sessions or targets of opportunity wont cost an arm and a leg. These are the best way available to become skilled with your pistol.

B: Should the need arise to shoot a larger animal (mountain lion, large dog, hog, etc), the non expanding bullet will more likely penetrate to a vital area of the animal. I have shot many large animals with hand guns and found that HP ammo is not everything it is cracked up to be under those conditions.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

am1too said:


> Would you please provide a scenario why one would need more rounds? Thanks



farm use , sure true story my grandpa pulls back into the farm drive way to see 5 dogs in the pigs they have one down and are literally eating it alive 

SD , with as fast as magazines empty , not sure you could have to many , if they are high on something they may take a lot of rounds before they know they are hit 

pistols are just not the death rays people think they are , expect follow up shots will be necessary

80% of gun shot victims live most of them walk to the ambulance , there are several videos mostly security footage where you see the gun come out shots fired then you see the guy who was shot walking around minutes later , this isn't TV

my concealed carry gun is small so that I carry it but still 9mm , I caught 3 **** by the chicken coop at a friends farm I hit every one first shot with that little 9mm and had to go back and finish 2 one of them took a 3rd shot before it balled up 6 rounds that gun holds 7+1 7 in the magazine 1 in the chamber , like I said I compromised on size because I wanted it very easily carried 

common modern SD training is to fire 2-3 rounds at each threat/target then assess 


also it didn't sound like you would be able to easily reload with dogs in the off hand so why not more rounds if it doesn't add to much weight


I started shooting action pistol recently , this is where targets are set up in stages a mix of steel and cardboard the cardboard has scoring rings but you can't see them until you are very close they are a very thin line , you have shoot each cardboard 2x and to hit all the steel targets to finish , some of them have swingers some are small the first time I shot one of these stages I went into it thinking I was good to go with 22 rounds 8+7+7 after all I am a good shot ,these are timed runs the timer also keeps track of time between shots so when you can see a big delay after 8 then 7 rounds you can tell why, you have to move and shoot , and bad angles ,barriers obstructions and half covered targets reaching at odd angles are all part of the game misses happen and with 7 round mags you spend as much time reloading as shooting that doesn't help time sure your likely never going to have to engage 7 targets , but if you want a gun that will have the sight radius to get you to a hundred or more feet and a comfortable grip you likely to have the room for the rounds any ways 

so why handicap yourself ?


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## Jolly

I recently threw an old box of bullets out of the morgue. They were no longer needed by law enforcement.

Not surprisingly, most of those bullets were .22's, a few bigger bullets such as .38/9mm size stuff and very few .45's.

So, pretty much anything can kill, but not everything kills quickly. As has been said, pistols are not a death ray. Shoot the largest caliber you can shoot well. IMO, for most non-gunny folks, that's going to be in the 9x19/.38 spl +P realm. 

Those calibers, coupled with good bullets, are nothing to sneeze at, IMO.


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## am1too

DEKE01 said:


> when the predators are firing back.
> 
> My XDM has a 19 round mag. SO I don't carry reloads on my person. If I ever have to shoot 19 rounds, it is a bad day indeed. But it is not at all uncommon to find that in gun fights, people empty their guns...cops especially.


 Sure hoping I don't have to deal with that kind of wild life. That's certainly a possibility if stuff does hit the fan. I'm kinda headed in that kind of prepper mentality though because of what I see and hear is looming on the horizon. My prayer is I'll be dead and gone by that time. I saw the film 1984 and think everyone should see it and think about what's going on these days. The technology is now readily available. The push is to go electronic governing all aspects of life. Buck Rogers isn't all that unbelievable. Going to the moon was Sci-Fi when I was a grade scholar. 

That's really not the reason for the OP though.


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## am1too

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> farm use , sure true story my grandpa pulls back into the farm drive way to see 5 dogs in the pigs they have one down and are literally eating it alive
> 
> SD , with as fast as magazines empty , not sure you could have to many , if they are high on something they may take a lot of rounds before they know they are hit
> 
> pistols are just not the death rays people think they are , expect follow up shots will be necessary
> 
> 80% of gun shot victims live most of them walk to the ambulance , there are several videos mostly security footage where you see the gun come out shots fired then you see the guy who was shot walking around minutes later , this isn't TV
> 
> my concealed carry gun is small so that I carry it but still 9mm , I caught 3 **** by the chicken coop at a friends farm I hit every one first shot with that little 9mm and had to go back and finish 2 one of them took a 3rd shot before it balled up 6 rounds that gun holds 7+1 7 in the magazine 1 in the chamber , like I said I compromised on size because I wanted it very easily carried
> 
> common modern SD training is to fire 2-3 rounds at each threat/target then assess
> 
> 
> also it didn't sound like you would be able to easily reload with dogs in the off hand so why not more rounds if it doesn't add to much weight
> 
> 
> I started shooting action pistol recently , this is where targets are set up in stages a mix of steel and cardboard the cardboard has scoring rings but you can't see them until you are very close they are a very thin line , you have shoot each cardboard 2x and to hit all the steel targets to finish , some of them have swingers some are small the first time I shot one of these stages I went into it thinking I was good to go with 22 rounds 8+7+7 after all I am a good shot ,these are timed runs the timer also keeps track of time between shots so when you can see a big delay after 8 then 7 rounds you can tell why, you have to move and shoot , and bad angles ,barriers obstructions and half covered targets reaching at odd angles are all part of the game misses happen and with 7 round mags you spend as much time reloading as shooting that doesn't help time sure your likely never going to have to engage 7 targets , but if you want a gun that will have the sight radius to get you to a hundred or more feet and a comfortable grip you likely to have the room for the rounds any ways
> 
> so why handicap yourself ?


Interesting post. At this time I don't envision myself as that desirable a target. That time may come though. 
Were those ***** disabled and no longer a threat with the first shot? That would be my primary goal. Yes I too would finish the job. So I do understand finishing the job. 

***** are a real possibility here because the neighbor doesn't secure food trash. So far I don't have a **** problem. Dogs took care of a possum though.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

the ***** probably would have wandered off and died they were still moving but slower after the first shot 

***** will take a lot , their heart and lungs are a tiny portion of their body and right between the front shoulders almost in the neck , they are about 75% gut by volume ,skin and clean one you will see what I mean they loose more than half their body weight when you get the hide fat and entrails out of them the will go from 15 pounds to 5 pounds

anything that can drop 20 feet out of a tree and get up and start running even with a 22 bullet thole in it you got to have some respect for.

as for the dogs Grandpa got every one of them , but he use a 12 ga pump and they were in a pen he stopped the truck reached in the glove box and pulled out the box of shells dumped the box in his coat pocket and filled his shotgun he tagged 4 of 5 then finished them, lets just say they recognized #5 and it's owner insisted that they finish it also , so they did


----------



## am1too

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> the ***** probably would have wandered off and died they were still moving but slower after the first shot
> 
> ***** will take a lot , their heart and lungs are a tiny portion of their body and right between the front shoulders almost in the neck , they are about 75% gut by volume ,skin and clean one you will see what I mean they loose more than half their body weight when you get the hide fat and entrails out of them the will go from 15 pounds to 5 pounds
> 
> anything that can drop 20 feet out of a tree and get up and start running even with a 22 bullet thole in it you got to have some respect for.
> 
> as for the dogs Grandpa got every one of them , but he use a 12 ga pump and they were in a pen he stopped the truck reached in the glove box and pulled out the box of shells dumped the box in his coat pocket and filled his shotgun he tagged 4 of 5 then finished them, lets just say they recognized #5 and it's owner insisted that they finish it also , so they did


My hope is to solve such a problem with proper containment. My coop is predator proof with sufficient quality fencing and building structure.


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## Cornhusker

Personally, I'd prefer to have a few rounds left over in the gun as opposed to coming up 1 round short :happy2:


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## mnn2501

am1too said:


> What do you mean by regular shooting or practice?


I've noticed if DW and I don't practice at least every 3-4 weeks our skills (aim) deteriorates.
Having said that; we have a Glock 19 - 9MM, and 2 S&W 38 Special revolvers.

100' is doable but not without a lot of practice.


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## tamarackreg

Jolly said:


> So, pretty much anything can kill, but not everything kills quickly. As has been said, pistols are not a death ray. Shoot the largest caliber you can shoot well. IMO, for most non-gunny folks, that's going to be in the 9x19/.38 spl +P realm.


Even for most gunny folk, though few will admit it, those calibers are the most we can truly shoot well.

They will also do most anything that needs doing with a handgun around the farm.


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## am1too

Cornhusker said:


> Personally, I'd prefer to have a few rounds left over in the gun as opposed to coming up 1 round short :happy2:


Wouldn't everyone.


----------



## am1too

Double post


----------



## am1too

mnn2501 said:


> I've noticed if DW and I don't practice at least every 3-4 weeks our skills (aim) deteriorates.
> Having said that; we have a Glock 19 - 9MM, and 2 S&W 38 Special revolvers.
> 
> 100' is doable but not without a lot of practice.


Thanks. guess that's why I had so many rounds in basic training.


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## mnn2501

am1too said:


> Thanks. guess that's why I had so many rounds in basic training.


Yes, also why law enforcement needs to re-qualify every year.

The saying "If you don't use it, you lose it" applies to shooting also.


----------



## DEKE01

mnn2501 said:


> Yes, also why law enforcement needs to re-qualify every year.
> 
> The saying "If you don't use it, you lose it" applies to shooting also.


My retired SF bud works at a range where cops do their annual qualification. The ones that come to him for help have not fired a single round since the last time they qualified and according to him demonstrate almost no knowledge of how to fully operate their gun. He tells the story of a lady cop using the closed eyes/head turned away strategy of point and shoot. And this was a multi-year veteran of the force. I hope she had an office job somewhere and wasn't on the street. 

He has other stories, but none as bad as that. It makes my eyes roll when a lib tells me I am supposed to trust cops with my life and safety.


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## willbuck1

Am1too, A cat is something you would want to stop right now. With a pistol you had better practice a lot if you expect to hit it in the vitals at 100 feet.


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## willbuck1

Extremely excited scared dogs pulling on you, one handed shooting, and your dose of adrenaline, you aren't likely to hit any vitals at more than a few feet. You will want to hit it with everything you can. I carry a 9mm but I wouldn't if cougar or boar were something I needed to worry about.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

9mm luger vs 40 S&W vs 45ACP or in metric 9 vs 10 vs 11 in inches .355 vs .402 vs .451

bullet weight varies guns vary , and recoil varies 

trying different guns is going to be your best bet , see what you can and can't shoot well 

in FPE foot pounds of energy 383 vs 484 vs 391 at 50 feet 326 vs 396 vs 354

this data is from here http://billstclair.com/energy.html using their Remington golden saber loads change in bullet weight and velocity change the FPE but they stay in similar range as all are limited by pressure 

each person should find what they shoot well then carry it


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## Dutch 106

Hi Guys,
For your situation I would recommend a 38/357 revolver that translates to a 357 magnum Smith and Wesson Mdl 19,28 and the stainless guns (or a Colt or Taurus If you don't want to do more than a monthly practice session (ie 100 rounds of rimfire as in 22lr and 50 rounds of center fire as in 38special and or 357 magnum ) Semiautomatics take roughly 3-4 times the work to use well, What the Military taught you is pretty minimal. I always qualified expert with my issue 1911a1. I was out of the service for a year till a 100 pound gal taught me to actually shoot a pistol! 9mm are cheap and very popular even with modern hollow points it is a minimal self defense cartridge (a 9mm is much better than no gun) that's the $25(and up) a box of 25 rounds type stuff. 357 sig 10mm and 41, 44 mag are all cartridges I shoot and really like, but that little gal teaching me to shoot a pistol was 40 years ago. They will all require imnsho (as in in my not so humble opinion) much more practice! There are a lot of people who own 44 magnum revolvers out there, most have never had a full box of magnum ammo fired thru them. and even I only shoot 500-600 rounds a year and I use it or 41 magnum for hunting I carry a 41 magnum snubby 5 shot 2 1/2 inch barrel because I can easily carry it bare in a jeans pocket (I'm a big guy) if I need to grab something quick, when I've not the time to put on a holster. And being stainless when I go ass over tea kettle in a creek its less work to fully clean and dewater! I used to be a range officer for a small Sheriffs department and if you can teach cops to shoot a revolver you can teach anyone, do the current cops carrying auto's have enough training, NO! 
I used to have serious cops (not the screw up's or lazy) claim I cheated because I practiced weekly. 
Out west I used to bounce a 45acp round off of boulders or gravel beds at the feet of Coyotes and wolves who were trying to convince my Golden to come play so they could eat him! I would try to hit the yotes and just spatter the Wolves (the local DNR claimed there were no Wolves in those mountains. SO I always considered teaching them was better! and I never worried if it was a 100 yards because it was pest control (and I really love my dogs, as I'm sure you do). wither I hit them or not they got the idea I was not only unfriendly but might hurt them if they got stupid!
if you just really had to have a semiauto I would look around for a used or refurbished Sig-Sauer they can be found for $5-600 bucks or even less occasionally but they really are Mercedes Benze quality guns. I cannot recommend it for a restart though. but there are a lot of them about!
Oh and with dogs on the leash I'd recommend standing on the ends of the leashes and use both hands, because you can bet your buddies are not going to like the loud crack of a pistol
SO good luck,
Have fun and stay safe!
Dutch


----------



## am1too

willbuck1 said:


> Extremely excited scared dogs pulling on you, one handed shooting, and your dose of adrenaline, you aren't likely to hit any vitals at more than a few feet. You will want to hit it with everything you can. I carry a 9mm but I wouldn't if cougar or boar were something I needed to worry about.


Not much seems to apply to my local needs guys. Nothing personal willbuck. This is a general response to several posts.

But I do have a question

Unless an animal is very hungry or sick won't the crack of a gun tend to shy them away? The click of a safety release is enough to shy a deer.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

am1too said:


> I know virtually nothing about gun value or makes these days. I went shopping the other day. WOW!
> 
> I'm looking for good reliable value. Name means nothing to me at least yet.
> 
> I'm looking to protect myself and critters from small animals up to say 150 max. I have bob cats and panthers (have seen the kitties while walking the dogs) in my area with the usual *****, skunks, opossums and drop off pets.



but your initial post lead us in the direction we have gone personal Protection and live stock or pet protection from animals up to 150 pounds including bobcat and panthers


yes generally just shooting in their direction will scare them off but betting on that is not a sure thing nor will you seeing them before they are on you or your dogs

so you got advice on how to protect yourself from what you asked about and possibly more , better to error on the side of caution


I have been thinking for a while from reading your posts that you asked a question you didn't want the answer to or that you wrote one question while you had another in your head 

what did you really want to ask giving your situation over again in details not given in your initial post 



you asked about side arms in 9mm so I told you about quality side arms in 9mm and some other calibers 

some suggested rifles not a bad suggestion it is the ideal thing to dispatch targets at most any distance but you then told us you would not be able carry a rifle as you had dogs on a leash in your one hand 

revolvers where suggested because of their relative ease of use , and that is a valid point

I suggested a high capacity side arm in 9mm as they were easier to handle one handed than most major calibers and left you with more ammo between reloads , you seemed to want to hear about bigger because you shot 45 in the army , and wondered why you might need so many rounds 

I made good cases for why and I have another , because this week I watched a former deputy sheriff at the range fire approximately 20 rounds at a 6 inch steel plate at 15 yards and never hit it , when people are excited they miss he wa on the clock for the first time in many years

I shoot regularly I can shoot targets at considerable distance for a pistol , but put me on a timer for the first time and my shooting while not bad was definitely not anywhere near where it normally is by my 3-4 competition on the clock I was settled down considerably and could be smooth and deliberate and shooting the way I normally do hitting what I normally do considerably lowering my time and increasing my good hits to a nearly perfect score.


start over asking what you really wanted answered and we can better advise the answer.


----------



## rockyriver

i think am1 is more than he's acting and better trained too!! 
congrats am1 and thanks for your service... 

many rounds used in training 
officer's side arm (I'm not ex or current military) doesn't that mean am1 trained with a 45 or a 9mm?? 
can hit predator in the mouth while holding dogs at 50' (I forgot the correct distance?) while predator is running at him. 
etc... 

am1 you are sure well ahead of me in side arm proficiency... 
and in prep of your home place. 
congrats again and thanks for initiating a good thread


----------



## am1too

rockyriver said:


> i think am1 is more than he's acting and better trained too!!
> congrats am1 and thanks for your service...
> 
> many rounds used in training
> officer's side arm (I'm not ex or current military) doesn't that mean am1 trained with a 45 or a 9mm??
> can hit predator in the mouth while holding dogs at 50' (I forgot the correct distance?) while predator is running at him.
> etc...
> 
> am1 you are sure well ahead of me in side arm proficiency...
> and in prep of your home place.
> congrats again and thanks for initiating a good thread


Yes I have been on the range with a 45 military issue. That has been a few years ago - say more than 30 years. Dang it but getting old is better than the alternative.

I'm pretty sure I don't want a 45. 

But maybe I'd better make a trip to the zoo.

Thanks for the kind words.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

I was thinking this over some more , if some one who I cared about but had taking little interest in pistols before said , I am walking the dog and concerned about the wild life, yotes, wolves, big cats or loose/wild dogs it would be a trip to the range and we would be going to the indoor range with rental 

in my mind I would be thinking striker fired semi auto but I would hold my tong till we were at the range I would have them pull down every thing they had that fit roughly what I was looking for and it would start with a hand shaking exercise index finger extended along the frame what just feels good in the hand anything that just feels all wrong can get set aside , finding the 3-4 best feeling it's time to buy some ammo and grab a stack of paper and head for the range to find what shoots the best 

starting with eye dominance to determine what hand they need to learn to shoot with.


on shot guns and rifles we talk about the all important measurent of " length of pull " this is simply the distance from the trigger face to the butt of the stock if this measurement is to short we can generally work better with that than to long , to long leaves you off balance , reaching and trying to hole a gun that is just to far weight forward , pistols have the same measurement but it is from the web of the hand to the pad of the comfortably bent index finger and it is also effected by the width of the grip 

First dry firing each a few times to feel the trigger how it feels how it breaks , wear it breaks and keeping a sight picture 

ear plugs and muffs , and safety glasses 

now we are shooting taking a few rounds to familiarize with each gun then firing each again , what feels good , what doesn't does one have more felt recoil , shat do groups look like ?

what you shoot the best in the first few magazines is likely what your going to shoot the easiest any time.

if 9mm is easy to control I might grab the same gun in 40 as many guns are offered in both just to see if that is something the person wants to explore 

if 9mm is just to much I may look at a 22lr 

no 22lr isn't ideal but as you pointed out yes just firing a gun at them most things will decide it is a good time to leave and something that will be carried and shot with confidence is better than something bigger that gets left at home in the safe 

once a decision is reached , then over to the wall of holsters looking for something that can be worn on a pistol belt over whatever they might wear , when walking often it is shorts and a t-shirt that will not have a belt or maybe even belt loops a wide belt helps witht he weigh , and the weight helps with recoil 
avoid nylon unstructured holsters they just flop around , hosters should cover the trigger and have adequate structure whether they are leather or another material as to stay open for easy re-holstering
dome type of retention is desired , when secured in a holster the holster should be able to be turned upside down with out the firearm falling out some use friction others use straps , snaps or latches , what every you find works for you but it has to be easy smooth and very repeatable 

now for practice , draw present , fire one round , make safe , holster, draw , present fire one round , make safe , draw , present , fire one round repeat , over and over it is not about fast it is about safe and smooth the finger stays along the frame till you have presented on the target and have initial sight picture the finger doesn't move til the trigger till your over the paper ready to fire 

now draw 2 rounds , repeat 

when this is smooth and a natural feeling , then the person whom ever they are is ready 


Ideally the person has taken or wll then take some basic firearms safety training before they carry and continue training on their own without supervision


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

a neighbor a few doors down was walking her **** hound , she was just a few blocks over from her own house when a larger dog came out running from behind the house she was passing 

this is a very quite rural midwest farm town 

but this dog with no warning at a house they had walked past every week for years came bolting out and agressively sunk it's teeth into the dog walked on a leash , she tried to intervene and got bit in the process , she just could not get the dog off her dogs throat , she was yelling for help pounding on the dog help did eventually come , but her dog died , she had to get her bites treated and has scars maybe some tendon damage in her hands and wrist.

anything would have been better than nothing , a hatchet , hammer, a knife , but a pistol sure would have changed that situation fast especially given the lack of physical strength


----------



## am1too

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I was thinking this over some more , if some one who I cared about but had taking little interest in pistols before said , I am walking the dog and concerned about the wild life, yotes, wolves, big cats or loose/wild dogs it would be a trip to the range and we would be going to the indoor range with rental
> 
> in my mind I would be thinking striker fired semi auto but I would hold my tong till we were at the range I would have them pull down every thing they had that fit roughly what I was looking for and it would start with a hand shaking exercise index finger extended along the frame what just feels good in the hand anything that just feels all wrong can get set aside , finding the 3-4 best feeling it's time to buy some ammo and grab a stack of paper and head for the range to find what shoots the best
> 
> starting with eye dominance to determine what hand they need to learn to shoot with.
> 
> 
> on shot guns and rifles we talk about the all important measurent of " length of pull " this is simply the distance from the trigger face to the butt of the stock if this measurement is to short we can generally work better with that than to long , to long leaves you off balance , reaching and trying to hole a gun that is just to far weight forward , pistols have the same measurement but it is from the web of the hand to the pad of the comfortably bent index finger and it is also effected by the width of the grip
> 
> First dry firing each a few times to feel the trigger how it feels how it breaks , wear it breaks and keeping a sight picture
> 
> ear plugs and muffs , and safety glasses
> 
> now we are shooting taking a few rounds to familiarize with each gun then firing each again , what feels good , what doesn't does one have more felt recoil , shat do groups look like ?
> 
> what you shoot the best in the first few magazines is likely what your going to shoot the easiest any time.
> 
> if 9mm is easy to control I might grab the same gun in 40 as many guns are offered in both just to see if that is something the person wants to explore
> 
> if 9mm is just to much I may look at a 22lr
> 
> no 22lr isn't ideal but as you pointed out yes just firing a gun at them most things will decide it is a good time to leave and something that will be carried and shot with confidence is better than something bigger that gets left at home in the safe
> 
> once a decision is reached , then over to the wall of holsters looking for something that can be worn on a pistol belt over whatever they might wear , when walking often it is shorts and a t-shirt that will not have a belt or maybe even belt loops a wide belt helps witht he weigh , and the weight helps with recoil
> avoid nylon unstructured holsters they just flop around , hosters should cover the trigger and have adequate structure whether they are leather or another material as to stay open for easy re-holstering
> dome type of retention is desired , when secured in a holster the holster should be able to be turned upside down with out the firearm falling out some use friction others use straps , snaps or latches , what every you find works for you but it has to be easy smooth and very repeatable
> 
> now for practice , draw present , fire one round , make safe , holster, draw , present fire one round , make safe , draw , present , fire one round repeat , over and over it is not about fast it is about safe and smooth the finger stays along the frame till you have presented on the target and have initial sight picture the finger doesn't move til the trigger till your over the paper ready to fire
> 
> now draw 2 rounds , repeat
> 
> when this is smooth and a natural feeling , then the person whom ever they are is ready
> 
> 
> Ideally the person has taken or wll then take some basic firearms safety training before they carry and continue training on their own without supervision


Thanks, This is much more appreciated.


----------



## am1too

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> a neighbor a few doors down was walking her **** hound , she was just a few blocks over from her own house when a larger dog came out running from behind the house she was passing
> 
> this is a very quite rural midwest farm town
> 
> but this dog with no warning at a house they had walked past every week for years came bolting out and agressively sunk it's teeth into the dog walked on a leash , she tried to intervene and got bit in the process , she just could not get the dog off her dogs throat , she was yelling for help pounding on the dog help did eventually come , but her dog died , she had to get her bites treated and has scars maybe some tendon damage in her hands and wrist.
> 
> anything would have been better than nothing , a hatchet , hammer, a knife , but a pistol sure would have changed that situation fast especially given the lack of physical strength


Yes and at that range bet you I would have made a very decisive contact with the target.


----------



## am1too

Rain today and had to go to town anyway.

Went by a gun store and shootin range.

Wow! Every thing from 3 bills and up. A 6 bill price difference in the same caliber from the same maker. OK they looked pretty much alike. The main difference was an all metal gun vs a polymer base one. Grips were all different lengths.

The guy said the main difference was a small amount of twist in actual performance.

There are 3 main calibers - 45, 40 and 9mm. Yes there are more.

He said there was a difference in the recoil depending on gun weight. I do guess there would be some difference because of caliber as well.

A sheriff I talked to was carrying a small 40 cal with a 9 bullet clip. He said it was both small and accurate. When I ask the gun clerk he claim these days they're all bout the same in that department. 

Basically they carried 4 makers - S&W, Springfield, Gluck. The other one I can't remember at the moment.

Put my paw on a couple and noticed different fits. Some were due to length and other were due to width. Personally I didn't feel that much difference in weight. Did note the Navy issue was a 9 mm.

Could I get some discussion about various issues such as these? 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## DEKE01

Springfield XDM, at least when I got mine several years ago, came with 3 different grips that screw on easily. SO no matter your hand size, the gun should fit. I have no idea if other manufacturers do that sort of thing but there are lots of after market stuff you can buy if you are in to that sort of thing. I have a friend who loves guns and is always buying something to customize his gun. I've never bought anything aftermarket except a holster. 

Larger caliber always equals more recoil...at least everyone tells you that and it is almost always true. I had fired a couple of different 45 cal guns and found them impossible to use because of arthritic fingers, hands, and wrists. Each shot was very painful. Then my bid forced me to try his Glock (don't know the model #) and I was flat out amazed. It was no worse than my 9mm for recoil. 

The moral of the story, keep trying things till you find what feels good and works for you. But also remember economics. 9mm ammo is relatively cheap. I had a young friend buy a 40 cal because the clerk wanted to make a sale and convinced the kid it was close enough to the 9mm I had let him use. But I save about $75 / 1000 rounds vs the 40 cal. 

When I was taking lots of classes, I would burn thru 7000+ rounds a year, so ammo got expensive. Most people shoot way less but I was VERY concerned I would hit what I was aiming at and VERY+++ concerned about making appropriate fire/don't fire decisions. And the classes were WAY fun so I spent lots of time and money in schools, ranges, shooting houses, and other scenario based training environments.


----------



## am1too

DEKE01 said:


> Springfield XDM, at least when I got mine several years ago, came with 3 different grips that screw on easily. SO no matter your hand size, the gun should fit. I have no idea if other manufacturers do that sort of thing but there are lots of after market stuff you can buy if you are in to that sort of thing. I have a friend who loves guns and is always buying something to customize his gun. I've never bought anything aftermarket except a holster.
> 
> Larger caliber always equals more recoil...at least everyone tells you that and it is almost always true. I had fired a couple of different 45 cal guns and found them impossible to use because of arthritic fingers, hands, and wrists. Each shot was very painful. Then my bid forced me to try his Glock (don't know the model #) and I was flat out amazed. It was no worse than my 9mm for recoil.
> 
> The moral of the story, keep trying things till you find what feels good and works for you. But also remember economics. 9mm ammo is relatively cheap. I had a young friend buy a 40 cal because the clerk wanted to make a sale and convinced the kid it was close enough to the 9mm I had let him use. But I save about $75 / 1000 rounds vs the 40 cal.
> 
> When I was taking lots of classes, I would burn thru 7000+ rounds a year, so ammo got expensive. Most people shoot way less but I was VERY concerned I would hit what I was aiming at and VERY+++ concerned about making appropriate fire/don't fire decisions. And the classes were WAY fun so I spent lots of time and money in schools, ranges, shooting houses, and other scenario based training environments.


Yes I've been involved in sales and hope to not get trapped by them.

By grips I assume you mean something that goes on the side of the magazine. Some of the guns I pawed today seemed to be fatter than others.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

brands the big ones are smith & wesson , springfeild , Glock and Ruger 

there is also Beretta , CZ , Kahr , Taurus , and several others 

they are some what correct in all are about the same accuracy wise if you lock them in a machine rest die to machining tolerances and very similar design they will turn about 3 inches at 25 yards , few people can shoot most of them that well and that has a lot to do with the trigger , they just can't hold still and pull a hard trigger well at the same time , so trigger feel is very important , right after fit in your hand 

the good news is most manufacturers are realizing this and factory triggers have gotten much better in the last 20 years they were at their all time low when the "safe action" pistols IE striker fired guns first started coming out 

in the Navy if you had a 9mm it was probably an M9 the navy did also have some Sigp229

the Beretta M9 http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_52/products_id/23504/Beretta+J92M9A0M+M9+Commerical+15%2B1+9mm+4.9%22

good gun sort of big and heavier weight about 30oz , it operates in double / single action mode the first trigger pull has to cock the hammer and is therefore longer and harder , but you can pull the hammer back and shoot it just in SA single action mode 

Sig P229 http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...14960/Sig+Sauer+E29R-9-BSS+P229+13+1+9mm+3.9"

now for the guns that give you a lot for the cost the deals of the market are 

Ruger SR9E also called just 9E at times , this is a no frills version of the ruger SR9 most everything they did to drop the price point by 75 dollars from the sr9 really had littel affect on the shooter it is machine time mostly they make wider serrations in the slide and fewer of them they cut smaller sight dove tails removed the chamber loaded indicator and the internal lock that no one wanted any way. but it only comes with 1 magazine a second will cost about 35 dollars http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...oducts_id/93676/Ruger+3340+SR9E+17+1+9MM+4.1"

the SR9 with 2 mags http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...oducts_id/52387/Ruger+3301+SR9+17+1+9mm+4.14"

I can tell you from first hand experience that Ruger customer service is top notch so your getting a economically priced pistol and a reputable company behind the product 

the S&W M&P also comes with 2 magazines http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_39_1807/products_id/38991

the M&P series of pistols and Glock series of pistols are the 2 most common guns being used in action shooting these days price point isn't to bad 450-550 dollars and a lot of holsters , parts accessries , your not likely to want to modify your new gun but options when your looking for holsters is sure nice 
l
but everything I am telling you about their are easy to order holsters for , the holster is not just a case for your gun that hangs from your belt , the holster is now a part of your safety equipment , it must cover the trigger , and a good holster makes a gun easy to carry a bad holster makes it a dangling sliding weight on your belt that just gets in the way 

M&P http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_39_1807/products_id/38991

glock http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_43/products_id/13704

one more worth mentioning is the CZ P-09 or P-07 thse are based on the fammouse CZ-75 a pistol that severed the Czech army they mate the frame and slide together opposite most others and the slide rides in the frame rather than the frame riding inside the slide they are known for out of the box accuracy and while not as popular they have a devoted following of happy gun owners in the US and aroudn the world.

P-09 http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/..._id/84797/CZ-USA+91620+CZ+P-09+19+1+9mm+4.53"

P-07 http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...d/58053/CZ-USA+91186+CZ+75+P-07+16+1+9mm+3.8"

why polymer , well it brings the cost of production down the weight down and has proven it's self to work very well

some people just can't bring themselves to it but that is why manufacturers still make metal guns also , the just cost more in most cases 


some classifications by barrel length 
3.5 to 3.9 inches is usually considered compact 
4 to 4.5 service size or full size sometimes these go up to 4.9 or even 5 inches 
5 and above are generally considered extended or long slide and are mostly seen as competition guns 

so what felt good in your hand ?

expect the store price to be 30-50 dollars more than the ones on this web site I posted the links to , as that is about what a transfer will cost you any way should you order online and have it shipped to the fedral firearms licenses holder "dealer" if it is more than that you have to ask why , are they givving you a card with the purchase for hours of range time or are they just trying to make more money.


----------



## DEKE01

am1too said:


> Yes I've been involved in sales and hope to not get trapped by them.
> 
> By grips I assume you mean something that goes on the side of the magazine. Some of the guns I pawed today seemed to be fatter than others.


correct assumption. The interchangeable grips make the gun fit your hand. That is important because there is a magical place on your trigger finger, about half way between the end and the crease on the inside of the first knuckle, that makes contact with the trigger. proper, natural, instintive placement on that point is a huge part of what makes you consistently accurate. 

Someone who is into guns can probably describe it better than me. But if you are too far to the end of your finger, when you squeeze you push the gun left (assuming you are right handed), too far into that knuckle and you pull the gun right. Most people who pick up a gun without practice or a proper mindset will miss low and left, which is why if you are facing someone trying to kill you, absent any other factor like a good defensive position, you want to be moving to your left, their right. 

Getting that proper placement on the trigger means the grip has to fit the size of your palm and length of your fingers. There are all sorts of neato gee whiz grips out there. In my limited experience, all the different textures, grooves, and what ever else don't make enough difference to matter, fit matters. 

I know some here have recommended double action revolvers over semi-auto. But the DA revolver requires a stronger trigger pull because the trigger pull is cocking the gun. The auto in auto or semi auto means that the gun is cocked for you. At least in my hands, that extra force needed to cock the gun results in far less accuracy and speed.


----------



## am1too

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> brands the big ones are smith & wesson , springfeild , Glock and Ruger
> 
> there is also Beretta , CZ , Kahr , Taurus , and several others
> 
> they are some what correct in all are about the same accuracy wise if you lock them in a machine rest die to machining tolerances and very similar design they will turn about 3 inches at 25 yards , few people can shoot most of them that well and that has a lot to do with the trigger , they just can't hold still and pull a hard trigger well at the same time , so trigger feel is very important , right after fit in your hand
> 
> the good news is most manufacturers are realizing this and factory triggers have gotten much better in the last 20 years they were at their all time low when the "safe action" pistols IE striker fired guns first started coming out
> 
> in the Navy if you had a 9mm it was probably an M9 the navy did also have some Sigp229
> 
> the Beretta M9 http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/.../Beretta+J92M9A0M+M9+Commerical+15+1+9mm+4.9"
> 
> good gun sort of big and heavier weight about 30oz , it operates in double / single action mode the first trigger pull has to cock the hammer and is therefore longer and harder , but you can pull the hammer back and shoot it just in SA single action mode
> 
> Sig P229 http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...14960/Sig+Sauer+E29R-9-BSS+P229+13+1+9mm+3.9"
> 
> now for the guns that give you a lot for the cost the deals of the market are
> 
> Ruger SR9E also called just 9E at times , this is a no frills version of the ruger SR9 most everything they did to drop the price point by 75 dollars from the sr9 really had littel affect on the shooter it is machine time mostly they make wider serrations in the slide and fewer of them they cut smaller sight dove tails removed the chamber loaded indicator and the internal lock that no one wanted any way. but it only comes with 1 magazine a second will cost about 35 dollars http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...oducts_id/93676/Ruger+3340+SR9E+17+1+9MM+4.1"
> 
> the SR9 with 2 mags http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...oducts_id/52387/Ruger+3301+SR9+17+1+9mm+4.14"
> 
> I can tell you from first hand experience that Ruger customer service is top notch so your getting a economically priced pistol and a reputable company behind the product
> 
> the S&W M&P also comes with 2 magazines http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_39_1807/products_id/38991
> 
> the M&P series of pistols and Glock series of pistols are the 2 most common guns being used in action shooting these days price point isn't to bad 450-550 dollars and a lot of holsters , parts accessries , your not likely to want to modify your new gun but options when your looking for holsters is sure nice
> l
> but everything I am telling you about their are easy to order holsters for , the holster is not just a case for your gun that hangs from your belt , the holster is now a part of your safety equipment , it must cover the trigger , and a good holster makes a gun easy to carry a bad holster makes it a dangling sliding weight on your belt that just gets in the way
> 
> M&P http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_39_1807/products_id/38991
> 
> glock http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_43/products_id/13704
> 
> one more worth mentioning is the CZ P-09 or P-07 thse are based on the fammouse CZ-75 a pistol that severed the Czech army they mate the frame and slide together opposite most others and the slide rides in the frame rather than the frame riding inside the slide they are known for out of the box accuracy and while not as popular they have a devoted following of happy gun owners in the US and aroudn the world.
> 
> P-09 http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/..._id/84797/CZ-USA+91620+CZ+P-09+19+1+9mm+4.53"
> 
> P-07 http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...d/58053/CZ-USA+91186+CZ+75+P-07+16+1+9mm+3.8"
> 
> why polymer , well it brings the cost of production down the weight down and has proven it's self to work very well
> 
> some people just can't bring themselves to it but that is why manufacturers still make metal guns also , the just cost more in most cases
> 
> 
> some classifications by barrel length
> 3.5 to 3.9 inches is usually considered compact
> 4 to 4.5 service size or full size sometimes these go up to 4.9 or even 5 inches
> 5 and above are generally considered extended or long slide and are mostly seen as competition guns
> 
> so what felt good in your hand ?
> 
> expect the store price to be 30-50 dollars more than the ones on this web site I posted the links to , as that is about what a transfer will cost you any way should you order online and have it shipped to the fedral firearms licenses holder "dealer" if it is more than that you have to ask why , are they givving you a card with the purchase for hours of range time or are they just trying to make more money.


Thanks for all the links talking about the different features/differences in makes.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

metal frame guns have side grips 
it is a relatively new thing in polymer frames to put a reversible or set of interchangeable back panels with a gun so that people can find their own fit 


back in the day you would get a 1911 and change out the side grops to get the best fit them if the trigger was to short ot to long you would take your gun to a smith and he would replace the trigger with a longer or shorter one to get you a proper fit 

of course there have also always been the one sixe fits all aproch to pistols 


but since unlike a 1911 or many of the metal framed hammer fired guns the new polymer gun do not have a main spring housing at the back of the grip it was essentially wasted space that sat empty , until one of the manufactureres figgured out how to use it to make the gun more user adjustable for fit.

this is not far off the concept of selling a youth shotgun with stock spacers so that as they grow you back out 2 screws place a spacer between the stock and recoil pad and put the screws back in and have a gun with proper fit again 


texture does matter but if you have a good fit the texture is a little less important I have one of the early polymer guns , it had good fit but slid around , when I got it out and put some gun tape on it last year , it is like a hole different gun , it used to be that it slid around in the hand by the 2nd or 3rd shot everyone who shot it was adjusting their grip , with about 2 dollars in rubberized texture tape made for adding grip to guns where you want it , evenyone that has picked it up since making the addition of tape comments how well it fits , including my dad the original owner who gave it to me 

semi auto action types , Single action - the 1911 is a perfect example of this , the hammer must be cocked back in order to fire but the trigger does not cock the hammer back it only releases the hammer , so you place the magazine in the gun release the slide forward when the slide is back the hammer is back the hammer stays back you put on the safety and place in holster the is condition 1 cocked and locked 

by the way condition 0 is round in the chamber safety off 

a little history when John Moses Browning desinged the 1911 the original did not have a thumb safety it had only the grip safety when you gripped the gun there is a pannel at the back of the gun that moves when it is gripped and moves it allows the trigger to be pulled and hammer to be released 
the Calvary requested the change to add a manual safety to lock the gun from being fired till it was disengaged 

single action revolvers, you must thumb back the hammer to the cocked position on a SA revolver these are the guns you see in westerns the colt peace maker and such this was the norm for a long time 

DA revolvers , some where around the latter half of the 19th century some one came up with the idea that the trigger could move the hammer from it's resting position back to cock and release all in one motion the idea may have been earlier but this is when we start seeing DA revolvers in production the S&W model 10 is perhaps the most well known of these as police as security guards everywhere carried them from the 1890s to 1980s 
most you could fire by thumbing back the hammer for a short release only trigger pull for shooting targets or as the police used them a longer pull to move the hammer back and release all in one motion as the hammer is going back the hand of the lock work mechanism is rotating and locking the cylinder that holds the cartridges to aline it with just a few thousandths of an inch before the hammer drops firing the round these were fast to fire , records where set with these fast but a bit slower to reload , thinsg where done to make them faster to reload , and Jerry McLintoch (?SP) still set records with his S&W revolvers firing 6 rounds reloading and firing 6 more hitting all his targets throught he use of moon clips these were spring steel clips that held the rounds and all 6 could be loaded and unloaded as one unit.

DA/SA semi auto a good example of this is the Beretta M9 the current US service pistol 
like a DA revolver the trigger moves the hammer to firing position then releases the hammer to fire but after that first round is fired the ejecting case under gas pressure from the combustion of the gun powder drives the slide back ejecting the emty case and cocking back the hammer when it's rearward motion ends the recoil spring pushes the slide forward again stripping the next round from the magazine and placing it into the chamber ready to fire but this time with a much shorter SA trigger pull this continues till you run out of ammunition in the magazine 

most casual shooters of DA/SA autos never fire them in DA mode because they rarely release the hammer forward after loading they go to the range place a magazine in the pistol pull back the slide cocking the hammer and placing the first round into battery then take aim and press the trigger each round is fired in single action 

most of the DA/SA guns have a lever that is the de-cocker often like the M9 they are also a trigger disconnect safety if you look at the M9 you will see a lever on teh slide in the down position the hammer is releases and will not stay back , also the trigger can be moved but is disconnected from the lock work that would move the hammer

while some carry the DA/SA pistol with the safety on many others have only a de-cocker and are inteded tp be ready to fire in DA mode as carried because the trigger is not disconnected from the lock work so they are carried like DA/SA revolvers a pull of the trigger is all that is needed to make them fire but it is a longer harder pull needed to move the hammer to full-cock then release 

DAO double action only these are often smaller compact guns that use this but all different sizes have used it , tis can be most simply explained in revolver terms as the spur you would pull back on the hammer is cut off and polished smooth as to not snag on anything , small detective special pistols and backup guns often implemented this Bobbing of the hammer to render them DA only 
some autos use this also the some simply let the hammer fall forward not having a cocked position while others use internal hammers it varries the exact lockwork that makes it happen but each pull is a longer pull of the trigger moving the hammer back then release , the trigger pull is the same every time but generally longer


Striker fired , Glock calls this "safe action" 
in the slide there is a channel usually round in which a striker rides the slide when pulled back doesn't cock this so much as return it to it's home position , in it's home position it is blocked by a plunger from forward movement so that it can't get to the cartridge primer even if the gun is dropped , the trigger mechanism pulls this stiker basiicaly a firing pin with a spring around it and a peice that hangs down below the slide this part of the stiker that hangs down mates with the a small camming block when the trigger is pulled it pulls the block back pullingt he sear back , just before the full rear position part of the trigger bar pushes the striker block plunger out of the way then ar full rear the camming block cams down to release the striker to travel forward under the spring pressure of the spring it rides with in it's channel in the slide wit the trigger bar holding the striker block plunger out of the way the striker moves forward to strike the primer and set off the round of ammunition , as the pressure of the gasses pushing back wards on the case it pushes the slide back returningt he striker to teh home position , ejecting the spent case and then the recoil spring returns the slide forward again stripping a round from the magazine and placing it into battery

here is where I ruin tv cop shows for you , you know when the tv cops pulls their glock or the bad guy gets a hold of it and the trigger is pulled click click click darn its empty that is all hollywood sound effects that gun only goes click once because the striker requires about 1/4 inch of slide movement to reset to home position

this leads me into the next thought , another term you will hear is double strike capability this is mostly a marketing ploy a term manufaturers of DA/SA or DAO pistols came up with to market why they were still relevant against the glut of striker fired pistols taking the market 

that is long enough for this post I will put the whys in the next one


----------



## am1too

Yes I need much smaller posts.

Are you involved in the gun trade?

How do gun shows work?


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

now that you know the basic types of modern available revolvers and semi auto pistols 

WHY one of design over the other 

Single action revolvers still have their place mainly as large powerful caliber hunting hand guns the short crisp single action trigger gives maximum accuracy and is unable to fire again after the hammer drops till the operator manually manipulates it back again when ready , slow but accurate and it works well when your the hunter and not the hunted 

DA revolver these started and are largely still self defense type guns they are fast to press into service 

but any revolver gives very limited ammo availability for weight and reloads slow 

so in the progression of history , John Mosses Browning invents the 1911 this is really the semi auto handgun that everything had been judged by from 1911 on to present much of it's design is copped over and over in many ways even still , it gave greater ammunition capacity 7 rounds + one int he chamber , later 8+1 with different magazines , there are even 10 round extended magazines now , it offered single action trigger pull with double action revolver speed , but to say that it makes many uneasy to see a hammer cocked back while the psitol is carried in a holster well it makes a bunch of people very very uneasy to see this to them it is kinetic energy ready to fall and set off the round , even with a more than 100 year history of not being and issue 

also some SA auto and SA, DA/SA revolvers would fire if you dropped them on their barrels forom a distance fo greater than 3 feet , the firing pin was not captive and the inertia of the firing pin could cause it to moe forward into the primer when the gun that was in free fall abruptly stopped when it hit a hard surface 
some of the revolves if dropped on their hammers where also an issue 

however even before the turn of the century to 1900 there were designs that used a bar to transfer the energy to the firing pin from the hammer the bare was only in place to transfer the energy when the trigger was fully rearward 

some felt this was unnecessary and slowed down the lock work or added something they felt didn't need to be there it did generally affect trigger feel as there was some even if very light movement and resistance added to the lenght of the trigger pull 


so why all this talk about triggers triggers triggers all the time 

but first an exercise hold your hand out naturally let it relax for most people this relaxed position is approximately what it would be if you were holding a can of pop or beer , now move only your index finger in then out do that several times make sure none of the rest of the fingers move at all , for many who have not trained this muscle memory this will take some concentration not to squeeze the hand and to move that index finger totally independent of the rest of the hand 

do you notice the further you move the index finger the hard it is to keep all the rest completely still

now apply some resistance to that index finger with the index finger from your other hand , as you add resistance you will find it harder yet to keep the other fingers form moving 

now in all of shooting , be it billiards , archery , darts, horse shoes , rifles or pistols it is all about repeatability , you train a muscle moment to repeat it the same each time then you dial in you aim to hit where you want 

so the longer the movement or more the resistance the harder it is to keep that trigger pull highly repeatable

on a rifle you have 3 points of contact when firing and substantially more weight to move , that helps hold the gun in place while you move the trigger , still no one likes a bad trigger even in a rifle it does effect repeatability 

this is where I want to diferentiate , between accuracy and repeatability , if you lock a gun into a machine rest and pull the trigger with a piston or lever that makes no effect on the guns position you can find it's true accuracy potential this is all the tolerances and ammunition factors added up to give a final end result , you have made it 100% repeatable movements every time through use of a fixture to take all non mechanical variations out in this machine fixture it would not matter if the trigger pull were 3 inches long and 20 pounds 
but when you put a human behind the gun and they must manipulate the trigger for greatest repeatability the least movement with the least resistance will allow them to move the least making it the most repeatable , obviously some distance and some resistance is necessary for safety 

as someone who set of a hair trigger on a competition target gun with about a 4 oz trigger I can tell you it is a surprise you don't want , I was at the range already over my target an went to feel for the trigger on this unfamiliar gun owned by a friend who's gun had been to national competition it had a set trigger this is a pree triger to get the gun set so that the second trigger can be pulled an extremely short distance with very very little pressure these types of guns are never loaded until pointed down range , they are loaded one shot at a time and it makes them highly repeatable but not for use off a target range.

so some compromise is given to pull length and pressure when your carrying a loaded gun on your hip for safety margin 

but the police found that training for only one type of pull was easier for them or so I have been told , this is why some deprtments when they transitioned off revolvers went to DAO autos , others liked striker fired glocks , many tried a DA/SA also because ti was at the decision of the commander in charge chief or sheriff and their preference or what they want in their budget for both guns and training.

obviously there are political factors at play also , NYPD requires a heavier politician approved trigger spring, it makes the gun harder to shoot but they can then go into court looking better for having added safety triggers or something 

and guns are cheap compared to training of paid personnel

most police in the US were using revolvers and only ever shot them double action so training a little bit longer but always the same DA like trigger pull looked good and has been good for most agencies 

add to that the ease of manufacturing of the polymer pistols , the deep discounts companies use to get them in police use and build a name for themselves 

the ease of manufacturing of the polymer pistols , the largest component the frame is basically just a plastic handle to hold onto. the molds to make them are expensive but when you divide that cost by millions of units it is not so much, even better evidence of this is found on 
Sig polymer pistol where the fire control group that drops into the plastic grip is the actuall registered "firearm" and not the plastic grip Sig sells gripps from sub compact to service size that all use the same fire control unit you buy one set of innards and have multiple slides barrels and frames to swap around to fit the needs of the day 

these Sigs also fit the niche market of gun owners who live in states or countries where they may only have a limited number of guns on a license , one example Californians must list their carry gun make model and serial number on their concealed carry license I think Canadians may only have a certain number of handguns on their handgun license before needing a higher class more costly license.


in Juniors target shooting 2.5 pounds is a commonly accepted safe lowest trigger pull allowed for many target competitions

3# is a common minimum for competition action pistol shooting most trigger improvement kits will include the springs to make a 3.5# trigger pull as the lightest offered for this reason 

over travel , this is the distance the trigger continues traveling rearward after the sear breaks this also effects repeatability , you just went form pulling against a weight to click and free movement till an abrupt stop this is movement at the most crucial time the sights were lined up the trigger broke and this movement might force the sights off before the bullet can exit the muzzle on a trajectory for the target 

with a moderate trigger pull and good fit most people will shot an auto as well as a revolver shot in double action , but it depends what your used to 250 or more rounds is not a lot to familiarize yourself with a sidearm 
and regular practice keeps your very important muscle memory


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

am1too said:


> Yes I need much smaller posts.
> 
> Are you involved in the gun trade?
> 
> How do gun shows work?


not a part of the gun trade 

I am a volunteer juniors shooting coach and participate in some action pistol league 

gun shows work a lot like a flee market , where you ask to touch , but if the person selling is a dealer all the usual paperwork still applies , if the person is just a citizen selling a gun then your local state law applies the majority of states allow private parties to sell guns in a non commercial manner. 
often times people will be walking around holding a gun case in hand with a sign selling a gun

like a flee market you really need to know what your looking for and at and what signs to look for on a used gun , there are deals if you know what your looking for but most people know what there stuff is worth and are looking to get full value that have a table , cash is king


----------



## am1too

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> not a part of the gun trade
> 
> I am a volunteer juniors shooting coach and participate in some action pistol league
> 
> gun shows work a lot like a flee market , where you ask to touch , but if the person selling is a dealer all the usual paperwork still applies , if the person is just a citizen selling a gun then your local state law applies the majority of states allow private parties to sell guns in a non commercial manner.
> often times people will be walking around holding a gun case in hand with a sign selling a gun
> 
> like a flee market you really need to know what your looking for and at and what signs to look for on a used gun , there are deals if you know what your looking for but most people know what there stuff is worth and are looking to get full value that have a table , cash is king


So is every table/booth representing a dealer?

I don't think I know enough to do business at a show.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

am1too said:


> So is every table/booth representing a dealer?
> 
> I don't think I know enough to do business at a show.



no but most tables are dealers 

if he has 50 brand new guns out he is a dealer , If he has 5 or so used guns out he may well not be 

often times people who sell other things besides just guns will have a few guns at their table for sale that they are cleaning out of their personal collection 

if you don't know what your looking to purchase , what problems to look for and what signs to walk away from and what the going price is , your better off to deal with a reputable shop you likely won't pay much if any more and you will have a shop to take the gun back to for help if there were any problems some have an onsite gun smith but even if they don't the simple things they can usually help you with if it does need to go back to the manufacturer for repair they can ship and receive it back in for you , some state laws do not allow you to ship your own gun to a manufacturer and receive it back you have to ship through a dealer

of late to many people at gun shows seem to think their stuff is all worth a premium , people have succumb to panic buying and that drives up the price of used guns 


it is a fairly large purchase not car or house large but often 500 dollars and you want to make a good decision on a gun that fits you , the good news is aside from springs and a firing pin replacement after many thousands of rounds there is no reason the gun shouldn't last you the rest of your life most people never even put that many rounds into a gun to wear out the firing pin in a life time


----------



## am1too

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> no but most tables are dealers
> 
> if he has 50 brand new guns out he is a dealer , If he has 5 or so used guns out he may well not be
> 
> often times people who sell other things besides just guns will have a few guns at their table for sale that they are cleaning out of their personal collection
> 
> if you don't know what your looking to purchase , what problems to look for and what signs to walk away from and what the going price is , your better off to deal with a reputable shop you likely won't pay much if any more and you will have a shop to take the gun back to for help if there were any problems some have an onsite gun smith but even if they don't the simple things they can usually help you with if it does need to go back to the manufacturer for repair they can ship and receive it back in for you , some state laws do not allow you to ship your own gun to a manufacturer and receive it back you have to ship through a dealer
> 
> of late to many people at gun shows seem to think their stuff is all worth a premium , people have succumb to panic buying and that drives up the price of used guns
> 
> 
> it is a fairly large purchase not car or house large but often 500 dollars and you want to make a good decision on a gun that fits you , the good news is aside from springs and a firing pin replacement after many thousands of rounds there is no reason the gun shouldn't last you the rest of your life most people never even put that many rounds into a gun to wear out the firing pin in a life time


Thanks.

Unless I get extremely bored I'll continue to shy away from them. It gets into an ethics problem for me I don't want to deal with.

It also does make me feel very trapped and manipulated, though.


----------



## Mike in Ohio

One thing I haven't seen anyone comment on is matching your handgun and rifle calibers. I prefer rifles and carbines but my wife prefers handguns. Being able to share ammo can be useful. You do have to be careful about things like 9mm +P ammo in a semi-automatic handgun though.

I was at the (Berea Ohio) gun show recently and noticed more 7.62x39 AK variants in a pistol style configuration. Kind of interesting.

The other thing I haven't seen commented on is that preferences for particular brands/models seem to go in cycles. Shoot with friends and and try each others weapons. I was pleasantly surprised when I tried a friends HiPoint 9mm Carbine when he brought it out to shoot one time. I ended up buying one for myself.

Mike


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

AK and AR pistols generally take 2 hands to shoot , and don't really holster , you just put a sling on them

if you want to carry something that large , with a red dot optic they can be shot very decently at 100 yards but generally when using a 2 hand hold and resting your elbows on your chest almost like you holding a rifle but without a stock against your shoulder.

ammo commonality is nice but a 223 rem cartridge with a 55gr bullet weighs less than a 9mm cartridge with 147 gr bullet , yet when a 9mm is fired from a 16 inch barrel carbine your talking around 100 inches of elevation needed for 9mm to reach a target at 300 yards and 223 is almost flat to 300 yards , this is why the pistol cartridge carbines haven't taken off the way that the AR platform has 

pistol cartridge carbines have their purposes but don't compete well again the AR platform

the OP did tell us they are uninteresting in rifles as they would have dogs in the other hand


----------



## am1too

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> AK and AR pistols generally take 2 hands to shoot , and don't really holster , you just put a sling on them
> 
> if you want to carry something that large , with a red dot optic they can be shot very decently at 100 yards but generally when using a 2 hand hold and resting your elbows on your chest almost like you holding a rifle but without a stock against your shoulder.
> 
> ammo commonality is nice but a 223 rem cartridge with a 55gr bullet weighs less than a 9mm cartridge with 147 gr bullet , yet when a 9mm is fired from a 16 inch barrel carbine your talking around 100 inches of elevation needed for 9mm to reach a target at 300 yards and 223 is almost flat to 300 yards , this is why the pistol cartridge carbines haven't taken off the way that the AR platform has
> 
> pistol cartridge carbines have their purposes but don't compete well again the AR platform
> 
> the OP did tell us they are uninteresting in rifles as they would have dogs in the other hand


Rifles aren't very handy if one is engaging in other work activities. If I were hunting I'd be very interested in rifles or maybe 2 handed pistols.


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