# sheep worming question



## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

I belong on the goat side of the forum:teehee: but I have been asked to worm two sheep when I go into copper bolus goats this afternoon. Though I find it extremely interesting on the new research coming out on the copper bolus for the sheep, I am not inclined to try this.
I have on hand both quest (cydectin) and ivomectrin horse wormer along with oxibendazole of those three which is more effective against barber pole worms with sheep? I find with goats its one or the other depending on herd worming history but I have no idea how to dose sheep with these and not finding anything in the forum search.

Thank you

FYI, Im thinking of getting a few experimental sheep to do the copper bolus on. Im assuming worse case I get some mutton out of it


----------



## LibertyWool (Oct 23, 2008)

My Cydectin drench is 1cc per 11lbs. orally. It contains 0.1% moxidectin. The recommend dose level of 0.2 mg moxidectin/2.2 lb (0.2 mg/kg) body weight (per the label).

I don't have the other two dewormers, but this has worked well this summer for barber pole worms for me....


----------



## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Sounds like I need another cup of coffee, I knew that the sheep drench was different than the other for cows and horses just didnt know how much so at least I can do the math. thank you


----------



## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

My personal preference would be to use the Cydectin because that's what I'm familiar with and it's formulated for sheep. It really depends on what has been used on the sheep in the past. If they have been on ivermectin repeatedly, their worms may have developed some resistance to it. I'm not familiar with the particular brand you have, Quest, but they should have dosing instructions on the label. Cydectin is pretty safe and I usually give somewhere between 1x and 2x the dosage to make sure I don't underdose (which can cause resistance to build up quicker).

1ml per 11lbs body weight is the usual dose if the formulation is 1mg/ml moxidectin. If you don't know the weights, you can take a tape measure and figure (heart girth x heart girth x body length) divided by 300 to get an approximation in lbs. 

Copper bolus is an interesting option. I raise Icelandics which seem to need more copper than other breeds, and some shepherds have used copper boluses in their sheep without ill effects.


----------



## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

quest is moxidectin aka cydectin and is 4xs stronger than the cydectin made for cattle which is why for small herds most goat folks use it instead of coming up with 70 dollars for a herd of 5 or so goats when a $10 tube works just as well, granted in the long run its not cheaper but most people with livestock are living in the short run.

So, in saying the above with sheep with copper bolus I would need to do a couple different breeds in the trial as some are more sensitive than others? Which are the more sensitive? Sheep are high here and since its kinda an experiment and death can occur I will need to do the most with the few sheep I could afford.
I have already established that the recommended dose for the goats online is highly effective, what I am working on now is if you can go lower, and then start there with sheep, as its the worm we are killing with the copper so the lowest dose that I can use with goats should be the starting point with sheep. We use a high dose with goats because they also need extra copper so I have to separate those two things.


----------



## LibertyWool (Oct 23, 2008)

Toxic levels of copper in the sheep's diet may not be apparent. The sheep's liver accumulates copper and then releases it during a stress event, causing death. This is a good article that explains it....

http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/coppertox.html


----------



## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

Cannon_Farms said:


> So, in saying the above with sheep with copper bolus I would need to do a couple different breeds in the trial as some are more sensitive than others? Which are the more sensitive? Sheep are high here and since its kinda an experiment and death can occur I will need to do the most with the few sheep I could afford.


There have been some studies done that might help. You may have seen these references and information already, but I'll put them here for other people who may be reading this thread. These were found by Googling "sheep copper bolus". There are no doubt more references out there.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w221766j18400324/
http://mdsheepgoat.blogspot.com/2008/02/copper-oxide-for-worm-control.html
www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1751-0147-45-149.pdf
http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/PDF/copper_wire.pdf

I know that some sheep folks absolutely do not recommend using copper for sheep in this manner. I think it was a Pipestone newsletter (I may be wrong) that recommended not trying this as they felt it was dangerous and that more than one person had sheep die of copper toxicity because of giving too much. I think their concern is that people not just blindly give copper oxide boluses (or copper sulfate which is more easily absorbed) thinking it's going to solve all their parasite problems, and end up overdosing their sheep. Thing is, you can overdose and it won't kill the sheep right away. Then some stressor comes along and the liver dumps its copper and bang! down goes your sheep.

One way to check would be to give a group of sheep boluses, and then at some future timepoint butcher one or two and send some of the liver for trace analysis. That would tell you what the levels are actually in the liver.

A lot also depends on your soil, water, and feeds and what they contain in terms of minerals and trace elements. Is there already sufficient copper? Are there things there that will bind copper and make it unavailable? Etc.


----------



## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Im only one semi educated person and all I hope to achieve enough base information to help the people in my area or of my soil water types which is actually low in copper and high in iron. My plan of action will include butchering the lambs/sheep and having the liver tested at different stages. Without several years of college and a vets degree I don't expect to be held to any high creditability, but maybe could become a good foot stool for some further research. Besides im getting bored with chicken in the freezer camp and my goats have not hit a kidding streak enough to have any goat in the freezer. 
Thank you for the links, i will start looking into them when I can devote my full attention to them, just got home from work and gotta go milk.


----------



## LibertyWool (Oct 23, 2008)

In looking at the water, you need to also be looking at sulphur and molybdenum content.


----------



## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

each ml of quest contains 20mg of moxidectin


----------



## Ebenezer (Jun 5, 2010)

> Im only one semi educated person and all I hope to achieve enough base information to help the people in my area or of my soil water types which is actually low in copper and high in iron. My plan of action will include butchering the lambs/sheep and having the liver tested at different stages. Without several years of college and a vets degree I don't expect to be held to any high creditability, but maybe could become a good foot stool for some further research. Besides im getting bored with chicken in the freezer camp and my goats have not hit a kidding streak enough to have any goat in the freezer.


Sounds like some good old red clay farming over there in GA. A vet can do a liver biopsy without killing the sheep. Some of the vet students at UGA might be cheaper. Might be able to save a little on replacements and track the same individual sheep for several tests. There was some research on copper filings in sheep feed a year or so ago rather than using a bolus. Easiest thing to do in the SE is raise sheep that don't need worming.


----------



## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Cannon, after having read your posts several times, I'm at a loss as to why you would want to be "experimenting" by giving sheep copper boluses. Have you reason to suspect that you are living on land that is copper deficient? and if you do, have you had bloods or liver biopsy taken? Do you know if the land is molybdenum poor and copper rich? Have you had soil tests done.

Sorry, but nobody with half a brain chucks copper at sheep without first establishing that there is a need for it - and death, and health leading up to death, from copper poisoning is not nice for the sheep. And be aware that there is no treatment for it.

Cheers,
Ronnie


----------



## Olivia67 (Mar 6, 2008)

I seem to remember an article about Aussies trying the copper bolus in sheep and they lost a lot of sheep from the experiement. We have Old English and one Icelandic ram so maybe our sheep don't need or can't handle much but from what I've read sheep only need about 5ppm of copper and any more than that can be deadly. I think what you are trying is to make your sheep more parasite resistant by giving them copper rods/bolus but from what I've read it hasn't worked.


----------

