# Boston Shooting: Suspect Plotted to Behead Pamela Geller



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Pamela knew this was a possibility, but held the Freedom of Speech Draw Mohamed contest anyway. A brave American hero.



> (CNN)Usaamah Rahim, who was fatally shot after waving a military knife at law enforcement officers in Boston, was *originally plotting to behead Pamela Geller*, an activist and conservative blogger, law enforcement sources told CNN on Wednesday. But Rahim, a 26-year-old security guard who officials believe was radicalized by ISIS and other extremists, decided instead to target the "boys in blue," a reference to police, according to court documents.
> "I can't wait that long," he said of the original beheading plan, according to an FBI affidavit filed in federal court in Boston on Wednesday. more


From Pamela's site



> Itâs been confirmed. The Boston jihadi targeted me for beheading before they decided to take out police officers.
> They targeted me for violating sharia blasphemy laws. They mean to kill everyone who doesnât do their bidding and abide by then voluntarily. This is a showdown for American freedom. Will we stand against this savagery, or bow down to them and silence ourselves?
> *It wonât end with me or the copsâ¦. Itâs just beginning. The one thing thatâs being ignored that came out of Garland, is that ISIS is here. Islamic terrorism is here. *more


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

A brave American hero my foot! Yet another attention you know what doing nothing but creating hate and dissension so she can have her 15 minutes of fame. Being taken to task for her anti-Muslim hate views by the ADL of all people is a pretty good barometer of where she is on the crazy meter.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Patchouli said:


> A brave American hero my foot! Yet another attention you know what doing nothing but creating hate and dissension so she can have her 15 minutes of fame. Being taken to task for her anti-Muslim hate views by the ADL of all people is a pretty good barometer of where she is on the crazy meter.


You do know that ADL is a far left group and Pamela is a conservative?


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> A brave American hero my foot! Yet another attention you know what doing nothing but creating hate and dissension so she can have her 15 minutes of fame. Being taken to task for her anti-Muslim hate views by the ADL of all people is a pretty good barometer of where she is on the crazy meter.


So she's creating the hatred that makes 2 muslim terrorists drive from Pheonix to do a mass killing? I suppose she inspired the cutthroats in Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Nigeria, Lybia, etc, etc, etc. 

Give it a break, the hatred is in the muslim's hearts, and Pamela Geller is just shining a light on it.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> You do know that ADL is a far left group and Pamela is a conservative?


I know that the Anti-Defamation League is a Jewish group that was founded to stop antisemitism and to end bigotry for everyone and protect civil rights. Your Ms. Geller got on their radar for taking her hatred of Muslims too far. 

Always interesting to see someone who comes from a group that has been treated badly due to their race or religion turn right around and do the same thing to someone else. You would think if anyone would understand and do the right thing it would be those who has suffered it themselves.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> A brave American hero my foot! Yet another attention you know what doing nothing but creating hate and dissension so she can have her 15 minutes of fame. Being taken to task for her anti-Muslim hate views by the ADL of all people is a pretty good barometer of where she is on the crazy meter.


I'm glad she did it and I hope others do too. As long as people think like you and allow others to dictate our rights, we need people to push back. What good is the right to free speech if you can't or are afraid to use it?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Ozarks Tom said:


> So she's creating the hatred that makes 2 muslim terrorists drive from Pheonix to do a mass killing? I suppose she inspired the cutthroats in Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Nigeria, Lybia, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> Give it a break, the hatred is in the muslim's hearts, and Pamela Geller is just shining a light on it.


Post of the day award.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

The media offends the Muslims daily with stories about Kaitlin Jenner, same Sex Marriage, Transgender, Bisexual and Lesbians.

Maybe there is hope that they will all start leaving to go to some Muslim paradise and we won't have to worry about them anymore.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Why do we keep kicking a hornets nest and continue to think we won't get stung?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Patchouli said:


> I know that the Anti-Defamation League is a Jewish group that was founded to stop antisemitism and to end bigotry for everyone and protect civil rights. Your Ms. Geller got on their radar for taking her hatred of Muslims too far.
> 
> Always interesting to see someone who comes from a group that has been treated badly due to their race or religion turn right around and do the same thing to someone else. You would think if anyone would understand and do the right thing it would be those who has suffered it themselves.


Pamela has personally helped more Muslims than you, I bet. You seem to think you know what is in her heart. Say what you want about ADL, they are far left.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Why do we keep kicking a hornets nest and continue to think we won't get stung?


Why not destroy the hornet's nest and remove the threat of being stung?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Some keep on saying Geller hates muslims. Yet I've never seen anything to back this up. 
If anyone draws a perfectly wonderful image of muhammad, muslims are OBLIGATED to kill 'em. Hmmmm...who's the hateful ones?

If you migrate to our country, you are obligated to live by our laws. If your culture, your bigoted hateful theocratic political group is here to kill us & our rights..we'll take ya out first.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Notice that the bad guys , radical Muslims, are getting braver and braver just like what is happening in Boston this week. It looks like this is going to be a long hard summer in more ways than one. We need our police departments to stay strong and not be undermined by any one or any group. Boston has many brave policemen and they should be recognized for their courage!


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

gapeach said:


> Notice that the bad guys , radical Muslims, are getting braver and braver just like what is happening in Boston this week. It looks like this is going to be a long hard summer in more ways than one. We need our police departments to stay strong and not be undermined by any one or any group. Boston has many brave policemen and they should be recognized for their courage!


So true. 
And it could be noted that more cops were killed by people than people killed by cops, so far this yr.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Tricky Grama said:


> Some keep on saying Geller hates muslims. Yet I've never seen anything to back this up.
> If anyone draws a perfectly wonderful image of muhammad, muslims are OBLIGATED to kill 'em. Hmmmm...who's the hateful ones?


And this was only recently started by the taliban.


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## Shoden (Dec 19, 2012)

Tricky Grama said:


> So true.
> And it could be noted that more cops were killed by people than people killed by cops, so far this yr.


Where did you get this information? Based on a really quick Google search, it's not even close to true.

https://www.odmp.org/search/year According to the Officer Down Memorial Page, there have been 54 police officers killed in the line of duty in 2015. Of those 54, only 17 were killed by intentional shooting or assault.

http://killedbypolice.net/ "Corporate news reports of people killed by nonmilitary law enforcement officers, whether in the line of duty or not, and regardless of reason or method. 
Inclusion implies neither wrongdoing nor justification on the part of the person killed or the officer involved. The post merely documents the occurrence of a death. " According to this source, there have been 485 people killed by police in 2015.

The numbers aren't even close. 485 people vs 17 cops.

Different sources might have slightly different numbers, but I seriously doubt you've got a source that shows more cops killed by people than people killed by cops.


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## Shoden (Dec 19, 2012)

Tricky Grama said:


> If anyone draws a perfectly wonderful image of muhammad, muslims are OBLIGATED to kill 'em. Hmmmm...who's the hateful ones?


No, they're not. While the Qur'an prohibits worshiping images (idolatry) and the Hadith prohibits believers creating images of Muhammad or any person or animal as part of preventing idolatry, they contain no command or obligation to punish or kill those who do so. While punishment is mentioned in the Hadith, that punishment is left to God.

The current violence carried out by some Muslims against artists is based on fanaticism and ignorance, not on anything that is in their scriptures. Unfortunately, it's a fairly widespread false belief that results in violence (primarily from the believers), fear, and hate on both sides of the issue.

Here are a couple of good articles explaining or discussing the issue:

http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/beliefs/depicting-muhammad

http://www.meforum.org/5222/islam-drawing-mohammed - "At the root of Muslim protestations is the false belief that Islam prohibits the depiction of Prophet Mohammed. There is no prohibition on creating images of Prophet Mohammed in the Qur'an. Up until the 14th century; such depictions were common in the non-Arab Muslim world. On my website, www.tarekfatah.com, I have posted many depictions of Prophet Mohammed, drawn mostly by Muslim artists. Even if it were true that such depictions were prohibited, the prohibition would not be applicable to non-Muslims."


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Is it too personal to ask you if you are Muslim?


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## Shoden (Dec 19, 2012)

gapeach said:


> Is it too personal to ask you if you are Muslim?


Nope, not too personal, and I'm not. Would it matter if I was?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I just wondered because you seem to know so much about the Muslim faith. Would it matter? As far as I know anyone can post here as long as they adhere to the rules.


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Shoden said:


> No, they're not. While the Qur'an prohibits worshiping images (idolatry) and the Hadith prohibits believers creating images of Muhammad or any person or animal as part of preventing idolatry, they contain no command or obligation to punish or kill those who do so. While punishment is mentioned in the Hadith, that punishment is left to God.
> 
> Evidently there are differing interpretations.
> The evidence of that is kinda out there for all to see.
> ...


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Shoden said:


> Where did you get this information? Based on a really quick Google search, it's not even close to true.
> 
> https://www.odmp.org/search/year According to the Officer Down Memorial Page, there have been 54 police officers killed in the line of duty in 2015. Of those 54, only 17 were killed by intentional shooting or assault.
> 
> ...


DMN, yesterday, I've already given the paper away. I'll try to google it.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Does it matter how many think its ok to kill those who draw muhammed? It is to me. If the one of the millions who believe this comes to a place near me, my safety is in question. 
We live in a country of free speech. Polls show that the majority of muslims BELIEVE that jihad, that certain terrorist acts are warranted. That is very disturbing. Those who believe that way should be deported b/c too many 'lone wolves' get their jihad on.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

poppy said:


> I'm glad she did it and I hope others do too. As long as people think like you and allow others to dictate our rights, we need people to push back. What good is the right to free speech if you can't or are afraid to use it?


What kind of person are you if you only use your right to free speech for hate, bigotry and rudeness? Because that is the real question here. Nobody questions any Americans right to be ugly. We just question what kind of person wants to be all the time.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> The media offends the Muslims daily with stories about Kaitlin Jenner, same Sex Marriage, Transgender, Bisexual and Lesbians.
> 
> Maybe there is hope that they will all start leaving to go to some Muslim paradise and we won't have to worry about them anymore.


So long as they take all of the offended Christians with them I think that is a lovely idea.  (You may be unaware of this but there are Christians screaming bloody murder right now about all of those things and even trying to pass laws to take their rights away...)


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> So long as they take all of the offended Christians with them I think that is a lovely idea.  (You may be unaware of this but there are Christians screaming bloody murder right now about all of those things and even trying to pass laws to take their rights away...)


Sort of an irony, isn't it? Those people screaming to take rights away are protected by the very rights they're protesting. That works for me!

That's the beauty of our system. Popular speech doesn't need protecting, but it's been proven time and time again popular opinion can be wrong.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> So long as they take all of the offended Christians with them I think that is a lovely idea.  (You may be unaware of this but there are Christians screaming bloody murder right now about all of those things and even trying to pass laws to take their rights away...)


While some Christians are not happy about same sex marriage, they realize that some people are homosexual. They don't stone anybody, do genital mutilation, throw them off buildings, bury them alive, burn them or behead anybody for being gay. Screaming never hurt anyone.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Tried to google yesterdays article about police shootings & police shot. So, I apologize, not only can I not find the piece, I only can find the figure I remember: 385 shot by police. The article I read said 4?? cops shot. I'm thinking it was shot but not killed? I sure cannot find it now. 
But 51 have died...way up from last year.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

gapeach said:


> While some Christians are not happy about same sex marriage, they realize that some people are homosexual. They don't stone anybody, do genital mutilation, throw them off buildings, bury them alive, burn them or behead anybody for being gay. Screaming never hurt anyone.


Although I am no expert I don't recall anyone in U.S. or Canada doing any of those things. As the start of the string was having Muslims leave here, I assume you are only talking North America.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

In the United States:
Aasiya Zubair (2009) &#8211; decapitated in New York state by murderer/husband Muzzammil Hassan
Hanny Tawadros and Amgad Konds (2013) &#8211; decapitated posthumously, allegedly by murderer Yusef Ibrahim [26]Jersey City, N.J.

Colleen Hufford (2014)- decapitated in Oklahoma by Alton Alexander Nolen.
Quite a large number of beheadings in Mexico - too many to count.


I was really speaking of the Sharia Law in Muslim countries. It does not mean that they won't do it in the US too.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> While some Christians are not happy about same sex marriage, they realize that some people are homosexual. They don't stone anybody, do genital mutilation, throw them off buildings, bury them alive, burn them or behead anybody for being gay. Screaming never hurt anyone.


Neither do any American Muslims. Christians in other countries are a whole 'nother ballgame though. 

Screaming may not hurt them but discrimination sure does. So does passing laws to make what they do illegal, arresting them, forced sterilization and castration, etc. all of which happened here in good old Christian America. They have also been attacked, beaten to death, lost their jobs and their homes. All by people using the Bible to justify the abuse.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> Neither do any American Muslims. Christians in other countries are a whole 'nother ballgame though.
> 
> Screaming may not hurt them but discrimination sure does. So does passing laws to make what they do illegal, arresting them, forced sterilization and castration, etc. all of which happened here in good old Christian America. They have also been attacked, beaten to death, lost their jobs and their homes. All by people using the Bible to justify the abuse.


How far back in history are we going to go?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Shoden said:


> No, they're not. While the Qur'an prohibits worshiping images (idolatry) andthere
> 
> Hadith prohibits believers creating i5mages of Muhammad or any person or animal as part of preventing idolatry,
> 
> ...



So, since Pam does not believe in Islam is killing her worth any virgins in Islam?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> Neither do any American Muslims. Christians in other countries are a whole 'nother ballgame though.
> 
> Screaming may not hurt them but discrimination sure does. So does passing laws to make what they do illegal, arresting them, forced sterilization and castration, etc. all of which happened here in good old Christian America. They have also been attacked, beaten to death, lost their jobs and their homes. All by people using the Bible to justify the abuse.


America is a Christian Nation.

Is America A Christian Nation?
First let's ask, WAS America a Christian nation? It may not be any longer.

Obviously an important place to determine the answer to this question is the U.S. Supreme Court.

In 1892 the United States Supreme Court emphatically declared that America was "a Christian nation." If you read the Court's opinion, you will gain a nearly-complete education in the Christian history of America. You will agree that America was once a Christian Theocracy, and if you hear the heart of Justice David Brewer (who wrote the opinion for a unanimous Supreme Court), you'll know that if he and America's Founding Fathers could see America in 2007, they would begin immediately working to make America a Theocracy again. Here's where to get started:

The Supreme Court's Christian History of America (1892)

Step by step, the Court shows why America was founded as a Christian nation -- officially, legally, constitutionally. Let the highest court in the land be your guide. Follow the Court's history and review the documents cited by the Court.

It is a sad fact that the U.S. Supreme Court more recently has denied its earlier ruling, and has denied what every signer of the Constitution believed was the most fundamental obligation of every nation under heaven: to acknowledge God and His Providence. Many Christians are recognizing that battle lines are being drawn. The federal government now confiscates ten times more in taxes than George III did, and Britain would never have dreamed of using colonial tax revenue to remove God from schools, fund Planned Parenthood, or send foreign aid to Saddam Hussein. If there had been no "taxation without representation," the American Revolution would have started anyway if colonial schools were told they couldn't permit students to say the words "under God" or see the Ten Commandments posted in the school hall.

When you finish reading the Court's History of America, come back to this page for more evidence that America is a Christian nation.
http://isamericaachristiannation.org/

Those who don't like living in a Christian Nation should move somewhere else.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

America had some Biblical principals in the foundation of the nation......
We may be a "Christian Nation" but last time I checked? Jesus was down on 'religion'.
Pretty sure He said He did not approve of religion.....
And IF America is a "Christian Nation' today? How the Lord does NOT step out of the sky and squash us like the cockroaches we are, amazes me.
As a Nation, we couldn't be further from a "christian nation' if we tried.

Last time I checked, Jesus would NOT approve of the below "building blocks of this 'chrisitan nation'

Slaughtering Native Americans, enslaving the Chinese to build our railroads, enslaving African's and on their backs created the "Industrial Revloution"; THOSE were not part of the Biblical Principals our nation was founded upon.

We, who are called by His Name, have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior.
NO WHERE does it say that we humans must subject other humans to 'believe or even adhere' to our personal relationship w/ Christ. 
That's His responsibility. He's already taken care of that.
Phillipians 2 (10+11 especially)

Humans are a mess.
We, who are called by His Name are Commanded, to Love.
Commanded to Forgive.
And WE are to follow Him, His Words, His Ways.

That involves A LOT of "minding one's own business and working with one's own hands"
1 Thess. 4:11-12
and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life: You should mind your own business and work with your hands, just as we told you, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

We the people of the United States are a people under God, not a people under Allah.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

gapeach said:


> We the people of the United States are a people under God, not a people under Allah.


Yes. We are.
And God, the Father of Abraham and Isaac, gave us, His Believers, free will.
AND it is our calling to share, more through DEED not words, who He is.

IF God Himself, does not 'force' us to Believe than who are we, mere mortals, to do that to others? 

Yes, our founding Fathers, had The Lord God in mind when they penned many things this amazing Nation was founded upon.......
This is true and evident in our historic documents.

But God's Word trumps any man inspired document.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I agree with you, Laura except for being a people under Allah. Thank you. We all need to work together to spread the word of God.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

We, who are called by His Name, know who our God is.
No matter what anyone else says.
Shadrack, Meshack, and Abendego (totally spelled those wrong) would not bow to a false god. 
Thrown in a furnace, 3 x hotter than ever before.
Walked in the Fire w Jesus.
Walked out unscathed.
Never shook their fist, demanded their rights, claimed the 'nation' under force.....
And Jesus was there in the Fire and they walked out unscathed.

His People, who are called by His Name may be underfire.....but He's there.


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> America had some Biblical principals in the foundation of the nation......
> *We may be a "Christian Nation" but last time I checked? Jesus was down on 'religion'.*
> *Pretty sure He said He did not approve of religion.....*
> And IF America is a "Christian Nation' today? How the Lord does NOT step out of the sky and squash us like the cockroaches we are, amazes me.
> ...


 Couldn't have said it better myself.
We've also been sitting on our hands and not speaking up. So, here we are just about to have our world tipping on its axis.
I don't think God would approve of us watching as our beliefs and way of life is being pounded into the ground and being told to crawl back under our rock either. But that is exactly what is being asked of us, including those right here on HT.
G.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> We the people of the United States are a people under God, not a people under Allah.


Do you know what the word Allah means? God. Same God as Yahweh, the one Jews and Christians worship.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Only if you are Arabic. I am not stupid.

Allah (English pronunciation: /&#712;Ã¦l&#601;/ or /&#712;&#593;&#720;l&#601;/;[1] Arabic: &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607;&#8206; All&#257;h, IPA: [&#660;al&#740;&#712;l&#740;&#593;&#720;h] ( listen)) is the Arabic word for God (al il&#257;h, literally "the God").[2][3][4] The word has cognates in other Semitic languages, including Elah in Aramaic, &#702;&#274;l in Canaanite and Elohim in Hebrew.[5][6]


I've been going to a Christian church for 74 years and never head the word Allah spoken even once.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

So you have a problem with people that call God. "Allah" because they speak a different language then you do?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

You sure have a way with words. :stars:


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> Do you know what the word Allah means? God. Same God as Yahweh, the one Jews and Christians worship.


That is utter nonsense. You need to do some research. Muslims understand the difference even if you don't. When converting to Islam, you must say "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger". For Allah to be just another name for God, it should be okay to say "There is no God but God". Try that and get back to us. Their god Allah is the exact opposite of the Christian Jehovah God. Muhammad took the Jewish/Christian Bible and twisted it 180 degrees to create a perverted religion.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> What kind of person are you if you only use your right to free speech for hate, bigotry and rudeness? Because that is the real question here. Nobody questions any Americans right to be ugly. We just question what kind of person wants to be all the time.


I see the rudeness, I guess, but bigotry & hate? How do you get that? From a drawing? Cartoon? Cartoons are drawn of Christ all the time. They're used to teach children the bible, sometimes.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> *Only if you are Arabic.* I am not stupid.
> 
> Allah (English pronunciation: /&#712;Ã¦l&#601;/ or /&#712;&#593;&#720;l&#601;/;[1] Arabic: &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607;&#8206; All&#257;h, IPA: [&#660;al&#740;&#712;l&#740;&#593;&#720;h] ( listen)) is the Arabic word for God (al il&#257;h, literally "the God").[2][3][4] The word has cognates in other Semitic languages, including Elah in Aramaic, &#702;&#274;l in Canaanite and Elohim in Hebrew.[5][6]
> 
> ...


It's always nice to see a post that shoots down it's own argument so soundly.  

No I don't suppose you have heard Allah in your non-Arabic American Church. But if you went to a church that was full of Arabs you would. Tell you what find yourself a nice Coptic Church and see what they call God. 

http://st-takla.org/Links/Coptic-Links-02-Churches-b-USA.html


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> It's always nice to see a post that shoots down it's own argument so soundly.
> 
> No I don't suppose you have heard Allah in your non-Arabic American Church. But if you went to a church that was full of Arabs you would. Tell you what find yourself a nice Coptic Church and see what they call God.
> 
> http://st-takla.org/Links/Coptic-Links-02-Churches-b-USA.html


That right there is some of the most twisted logic I've ever seen! Amazing!!

Please explain exactly how the "argument" is shot down? It really is a perfectly clear statement. :facepalm:


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

poppy said:


> That is utter nonsense. You need to do some research. Muslims understand the difference even if you don't. When converting to Islam, you must say "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger". For Allah to be just another name for God, it should be okay to say "There is no God but God". Try that and get back to us. Their god Allah is the exact opposite of the Christian Jehovah God. Muhammad took the Jewish/Christian Bible and twisted it 180 degrees to create a perverted religion.


Tell you what you do your research because you are wrong. Yes Muslims call Allah God, it is the generic name for God in Arabic as Gapeach pointed out. 

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/allah.html



> Some Christians unthinkingly say âAllah is not God.â This is the ultimate blasphemy to Muslims, and furthermore, it is difficult to understand. Allah is the primary Arabic word for God. It means âThe God.â There are some minor exceptions. For example, the Bible in some Muslim lands uses a word for God other than Allah (Farsi and Urdu are examples). But for more than five hundred years before Muhammad, the vast majority of Jews and Christians in Arabia called God by the name Allah. How, then, can we say that Allah is an invalid name for God? If it is, to whom have these Jews and Christians been praying?
> And what about the 10 to 12 million Arab Christians today? They have been calling God âAllahâ in their Bibles, hymns, poems, writings,  and worship for over nineteen centuries. What an insult to them when we tell them not to use this word âAllahâ! Instead of bridging the distance between Muslims and Christians, we widen the gulf of separation between them and us when we promote such a doctrine. Those who still insist that it is blasphemy to refer to God as Allah should also consider that Muhammadâs father was named Abd Allah, âGodâs servant,â many years before his son was born or Islam was founded!â


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khuda



> *Khuda*
> 
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> Tell you what you do your research because you are wrong. Yes Muslims call Allah God, it is the generic name for God in Arabic as Gapeach pointed out.
> 
> http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/allah.html
> 
> ...


Well, most everyone already knows that "Allah" means God in Arabic, the point your intentional missing is that the term "Allah", is not used much in Christian church's here in America. And it is THE term used by muslims, not God.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Marshloft said:


> Couldn't have said it better myself.
> We've also been sitting on our hands and not speaking up. So, here we are just about to have our world tipping on its axis.
> I don't think God would approve of us watching as our beliefs and way of life is being pounded into the ground and being told to crawl back under our rock either. But that is exactly what is being asked of us, including those right here on HT.
> G.


I see where you are coming from......
I just can't find it anywhere in Scripture where God needs me to 'stick up' for Him? I can't find a passage that requires me to "Justify Him, or Defend Him".

He absolutely does NOT approve of or expects us to 'bow to false gods' (be that the false god of Money, Fame, Power, or another god).
That is the #1 Commandment in the 10 Commandments.
You shall have NO other gods before OR beside Me.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

It is virtually impossible for a good Muslim to be a good American!!
Even Muslims who profess to want peace, march to the orders of the
Quran and the imam of their chosen mosque... Not that many years ago
Turkey was 90 percent Christian, now Turkey is 99 percent Muslim!!!
Do not be fooled. Muslims are all called to be Jihadists! Their duty is to 
Convert or KILL the infidel, and in case you wonder, WE are the Infidels...

I don't know where some of you are coming from but you are on the wrong track and I won't sit back and listen to any of it.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Patchouli said:


> I know that the Anti-Defamation League is a Jewish group that was founded to stop antisemitism and to end bigotry for everyone and protect civil rights. Your Ms. Geller got on their radar for taking her hatred of Muslims too far.
> 
> Always interesting to see someone who comes from a group that has been treated badly due to their race or religion turn right around and do the same thing to someone else. You would think if anyone would understand and do the right thing it would be those who has suffered it themselves.


It wasn't about bigotry, it's about not letting muslims take over, it's about exposing sharia lunatics.
It's about freedom, America and undoing the damage the democrats have done.
Liberty is the word, not bowing down to terrorists because our leaders are little sissies and muslim sympathizers.
Remember, Soros, the guy who bought and paid for Obama is a Nazi sympathizer, so it's no stretch his puppet and other henchmen are bowing to the muslims.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> Tell you what you do your research because you are wrong. Yes Muslims call Allah God, it is the generic name for God in Arabic as Gapeach pointed out.
> 
> http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/allah.html
> 
> ...



You,re missing the point. The Allah they worship under Islam today bears no resemblance to the Allah before Islam or the God of Jews and Christians. You can call anything God, but that does not mean it is God. Islam is the newest face of ancient religions that worshipped false gods. I guess you,ve noticed the crescent and star are common Muslim symbols. Those symbols have been used by false religions going back at least as far as Gideon. When God destroyed the Tower of Babel and divided up the languages, the different groups carried those same idols with them. Look it up yourself. Ancient artifacts show the various false gods with the crescent and star on their heads. Muslims today worship the same way Nebucanezzar made people worship. He sat up an idol and when anyone the call to prayer, they had to bow down in the direction of the idol or chance being put to death. Ever hear of Mecca? The black stone worshipped at Mecca is a Meteorite. Moses warned the people not to worship such things and Christ specifically warned against it. The people of Ephasus were worshipping a meteorite too as a symbol of their god Dianna. The Bible calls it an image. The God of the Bible has been perverted by Islam.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I see where you are coming from......
> I just can't find it anywhere in Scripture where God needs me to 'stick up' for Him? I can't find a passage that requires me to "Justify Him, or Defend Him".
> 
> He absolutely does NOT approve of or expects us to 'bow to false gods' (be that the false god of Money, Fame, Power, or another god).
> ...



I commend you for your wisdom and still refuse to ignore the social impact being neutral has allowed. There is a passage that stuck me years ago.
About NOT to be neutral but to stand firmly with one's beliefs. ... be hot or cold but lukewarm is a folly of nothingness.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

The last thing that we all say in my church is to Go in Peace and Serve the Lord. 

A *gospel* is an account describing the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. 

And he said unto them, Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

This is what I was taught. Each one has his own journey through life and it is a free country to practice what you want to as long as you don't hurt other people.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

And then there's this: Majority of muslims want sharia law.

http://joemiller.us/2015/06/shockin...il&utm_term=0_065b6c381c-81ee6be26b-230980529


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Tricky Grama said:


> And then there's this: Majority of muslims want sharia law.
> 
> http://joemiller.us/2015/06/shockin...il&utm_term=0_065b6c381c-81ee6be26b-230980529


Will somebody please start a [ go fund me page ] to send these people where they want to go !!!!


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Any woman who is in favor of Sharia Law should have her head examined and if there is nothing detected mentally, then I would gladly donate to a fund to send her and others of the same beliefs to a country where she could practice it.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> It is virtually impossible for a good Muslim to be a good American!!
> Even Muslims who profess to want peace, march to the orders of the
> Quran and the imam of their chosen mosque... Not that many years ago
> Turkey was 90 percent Christian, now Turkey is 99 percent Muslim!!!
> ...


You know what is terribly ironic about this? They said the same thing about JFK because he was Catholic. It was impossible for him to be a good American and a good President because he was Catholic and had to answer to the Pope. Is that true? Can you actually be a good Christian and a good American since you have to answer to God first and your country second? There are plenty of authoritative Christian sects out there.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> You know what is terribly ironic about this? They said the same thing about JFK because he was Catholic. It was impossible for him to be a good American and a good President because he was Catholic and had to answer to the Pope. Is that true? Can you actually be a good Christian and a good American since you have to answer to God first and your country second? There are plenty of authoritative Christian sects out there.


Sure a Christian can be a great president, we've had them before, and will again. Muslim values are not compatible with our historically Christian nation.

Due you accept and agree with Muslim values?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Catholics are Christians. There is no comparison in JFK being a Catholic president and having a Muslim as president.
He really had no trouble winning the election either. My Irish Protestant grandfather was one of those who thought that the Pope would be controlling our country.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

JeffreyD said:


> Sure a Christian can be a great president, we've had them before, and will again. Muslim values are not compatible with our historically Christian nation.
> 
> Due you accept and agree with Muslim values?


I would like to see this question answered too.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

gapeach said:


> I would like to see this question answered too.


Just what do you think Muslim values are? We need to know what you think they are before we can say we accept them or not.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Patchouli said:


> You know what is terribly ironic about this? They said the same thing about JFK because he was Catholic. It was impossible for him to be a good American and a good President because he was Catholic and had to answer to the Pope. Is that true? Can you actually be a good Christian and a good American since you have to answer to God first and your country second? There are plenty of authoritative Christian sects out there.


No one ever asked if he was a good American.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> Sure a Christian can be a great president, we've had them before, and will again. Muslim values are not compatible with our historically Christian nation.
> 
> Due you accept and agree with Muslim values?





painterswife said:


> Just what do you think Muslim values are? We need to know what you think they are before we can say we accept them or not.


Asking JeffreyD as well.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Just what do you think Muslim values are? We need to know what you think they are before we can say we accept them or not.



You were not asked the question. Who is "we"?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

gapeach said:


> You were not asked the question. Who is "we"?


I don't think anyone can answer the question without knowing what the asker believes Muslim values are.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> You were not asked the question. Who is "we"?


If he asked me I can't see him anymore.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> You know what is terribly ironic about this? They said the same thing about JFK because he was Catholic. It was impossible for him to be a good American and a good President because he was Catholic and had to answer to the Pope. Is that true? Can you actually be a good Christian and a good American since you have to answer to God first and your country second? There are plenty of authoritative Christian sects out there.


Really? All I remember is some rumblings that pretty much got quieted quickly. It was not an issue during his presidency, only some raised it when he was running. 1st Catholic, & all. Wasn't impossible.
Not much of a comparison. I don't recall radical catholics taking down our soldiers in Beruit, the Cole, attack the world trade centers, then finally bringing them down. Don't recall anything like that.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Tricky Grama said:


> Really? All I remember is some rumblings that pretty much got quieted quickly. It was not an issue during his presidency, only some raised it when he was running. 1st Catholic, & all. Wasn't impossible.
> Not much of a comparison. I don't recall radical catholics taking down our soldiers in Beruit, the Cole, attack the world trade centers, then finally bringing them down. Don't recall anything like that.



Catholics are Christians just like Protestants. We all believe pretty much the same things. The main difference is that protestants speak directly to God and Catholics go through an intermediary like Mary but our intent is the same, to talk to God, the father, the almighty!

TG, Catholics are no comparison at all..........with Muslims.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> Catholics are Christians just like Protestants. We all believe pretty much the same things. The main difference is that protestants speak directly to God and Catholics go through an intermediary like Mary but our intent is the same, to talk to God, the father, the almighty!
> 
> TG, Catholics are no comparison at all..........with Muslims.


Northern Ireland...... Maybe you missed all of those bombings, killings, etc? That was Catholics and Protestants, still is as a matter of fact although today they mostly just beat each other to death. 

Oh and you do know there are plenty of members right here on HT who would vehemently deny that Catholics are Christians right? 

And then of course there is the long history of the Catholic Church killing all sorts of people, lots of Jews, lots of Pagans, lots of Muslims. But hey that is ancient history right? Rwanda anyone? 

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rch-apologise-failure-rwanda-genocide-vatican


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I know all about Ireland, north and south. I have been there before and talked to the people on both sides.

I do not have a dog in that fight, plus the fact that they are peaceful now.

Catholics are indeed, Christians! Catholics are followers of Christ!

I really don't care what other people believe!

Are you a Muslim if you don't mind saying so?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> Northern Ireland...... Maybe you missed all of those bombings, killings, etc? That was Catholics and Protestants, still is as a matter of fact although today they mostly just beat each other to death.
> 
> Oh and you do know there are plenty of members right here on HT who would vehemently deny that Catholics are Christians right?
> 
> ...


One crazy guy, not the church, he didn't even have many followers. This was a tribal thing and mostly looked the other way when the militia came to kill their enemies. He should still be hung. The back story is interesting. The Guardian article led me to believe that he was involved in 800,000 murders, it was several hundred and he kinda wasn't around for most of them, but he knew and should have done the right thing and called for help, but who would he call?

I'm Irish, my wife is as Irish as they come. I know all about the conflict there, I'm not sure you understand it though.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

gapeach said:


> I know all about Ireland, north and south. I have been there before and talked to the people on both sides.
> 
> I do not have a dog in that fight, plus the fact that they are peaceful now.
> 
> ...


*
*
http://levantreport.com/2015/05/19/...-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/

One might wonder. I suspect she is just anti Christian more than anything else. Likely a lifestyle issue IMO.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

poppy said:


> [/B]
> http://levantreport.com/2015/05/19/...-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/
> 
> One might wonder. I suspect she is just anti Christian more than anything else. Likely a lifestyle issue IMO.


Very interesting read to say the least!


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

gapeach said:


> Catholics are Christians just like Protestants. We all believe pretty much the same things. The main difference is that protestants speak directly to God and Catholics go through an intermediary like Mary but our intent is the same, to talk to God, the father, the almighty!
> 
> TG, Catholics are no comparison at all..........with Muslims.


Well, just to clarify, Catholics SOMETIMES use saints as go-betweens but mostly DO pray to God.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> Northern Ireland...... Maybe you missed all of those bombings, killings, etc? That was Catholics and Protestants, still is as a matter of fact although today they mostly just beat each other to death.
> 
> Oh and you do know there are plenty of members right here on HT who would vehemently deny that Catholics are Christians right?
> 
> ...


Yeah, & the Irish thing went world-wide, huh, into ME, most of Africa, over here, France, etc,...sometimes its too easy to shoot down a poor argument.
You...well perhaps you don't..know exactly why these civil wars are not good examples.

Same goes for the crusades, don't know much about those, huh?
They were in response to Islamists murdering & taking land. Fighting back to reclaim land. Or like some non-conserves would say-'he hit me 1st'. LOL.
Everyone has pretty much dissed the heretic type trials-no where in history is a group or groups perfect. Lots of wrongdoings. 

However, no where in history have we had a theocratic political group-Islam-murder as many for as long. 
We should be like Jefferson-and our "Leathernecks"-keep 'em at bay, at the very least.
(know who the Marines got that name?)


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> I know all about Ireland, north and south. I have been there before and talked to the people on both sides.
> 
> I do not have a dog in that fight, plus the fact that they are peaceful now.
> 
> ...


I am an Apatheist. I was raised Christin, my father was a minister. I was Wiccan for 7 years and then went back to Christianity. I was a staunch conservative, bible believing, 7 day creationist Christian until very recently. It finally hit me I just don't believe there is a God out there at all. 

You might want to take a wander through Belfast because that war is most assuredly not over. They just aren't lobbing bombs anymore. Oh no wait they are still lobbing the occasional bomb: http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/sep/02/sectarian-violence-belfast


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Even if a person despised Christians as hypocrites, having done evil against their own religion, there is still no reason to constantly advocate for Islam as one whit better. Especially in light of the hugely suppressive governments formed in that religion's theocracies, suppressing with violence all the dearly loved groups also defended in various threads by the same posters defending Islam's current excesses.
There is something else going one that has nothing to do with rational thought. It clearly must have to do with emotional reactions based on personal judgements. It seems to come in package of where a person feels called on to support whatever the offending group has opposed or oppose whatever the offending group has supported, not just a religion.
There must be some internal vision of a wonderful world in which all people are happy if only the evil ones who try to judge others harshly are reformed according to some mystical set of rules that exist in the head of the philosopher. 
Of course, those who do not subscribe to the world view that it world be one big happy world if people just stopped acting like people must be judged very harshly, their concerns dismissed and poked with sarcasm relentlessly to force them into agreement with not forcing people into anything.
If this sounds like an oxymoron of a philosophy, it is. It advocates out hating haters, out belittling belittlers and irrationalization in response to what is not understood according to internal stimulants.
And why no possible rational ideas can be discussed without it devolving into personal attacks. The slightest quibble requires a pile on as everything is a philisophical absolute.

So to put it on a simple level, without all the shading it has in the real world, so that it's emotional context is understandable to those who operate solely on that level, Islam is dangerous because it has a strong component of people committed to enforcing its values with violence while Christanity, in its current state of development, (along with every other religion I know) is mostly either satisfied with lecturing and/or politicking or ignoring others. 
I have learned to operate inside the current environment, created over millennia, without excessive friction. Now Islam would change that environment to one that they feel is comfortable for them but one which, looking at what it has created elsewhere, is an anathema to me. I do not want to live in a theocracy after centuries of effort in the west have pretty much eliminated that. It would be going backwards.
So unless Islam show flexibility in adapting to secular freedoms, or at least clearly makes effort to restrain the calls to violence against secular freedoms in their religion, they should be isolated.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

where I want to said:


> Even if a person despised Christians as hypocrites, having done evil against their own religion, there is still no reason to constantly advocate for Islam as one whit better.


No one is doing that. However many are saying absolutely horrible things that really are not true. They are demonizing an entire religion and millions of people because of a small portion of people of the same religion.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

where I want to said:


> Even if a person despised Christians as hypocrites, having done evil against their own religion, there is still no reason to constantly advocate for Islam as one whit better. Especially in light of the hugely suppressive governments formed in that religion's theocracies, suppressing with violence all the dearly loved groups also defended in various threads by the same posters defending Islam's current excesses.


No one here is actually doing that. All I have seen here is people saying Muslims are no better or worse than Christians when they live in a first world country. In third world countries your Christians are just as bad as the Muslims. All we want you to see here is you are the same. 

If you stop making it us against them you can step back and rationally look at why groups like ISIS are so violent and then come up with intelligent ways to combat it. The only way that will happen is if you join forces with Muslims here in America. Encourage those who are advocating for peace. Who are teaching their children that radical Islam is not the way. 

You hating on them creates the atmosphere that leads to radicalization. Oppression, mistreatment and hate on your parts creates what you so fear.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> No one is doing that. However many are saying absolutely horrible things that really are not true. They are demonizing an entire religion and millions of people because of a small portion of people of the same religion.


I think if you look at polls done in predominantly Islamic countries, or even of Muslims in European countries, you will find the majority agree with radical Islam. In fact, radical Islam is Islam, Islam is radical Islam. Maybe only a small proportion act, but the majority believe.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> No one here is actually doing that. All I have seen here is people saying Muslims are no better or worse than Christians when they live in a first world country. In third world countries your Christians are just as bad as the Muslims. All we want you to see here is you are the same.
> 
> If you stop making it us against them you can step back and rationally look at why groups like ISIS are so violent and then come up with intelligent ways to combat it. The only way that will happen is if you join forces with Muslims here in America. Encourage those who are advocating for peace. Who are teaching their children that radical Islam is not the way.
> 
> You hating on them creates the atmosphere that leads to radicalization. Oppression, mistreatment and hate on your parts creates what you so fear.


I think opposing them creates what you call radical Islam. And that joining forces with Islam in the US is only possible if they act in concert, not stand by as if they get a pass because Muslims target non-Muslims. 
And as for reality, parsing out all the acts of Muslims by calling the acts you don't like radical and the acts that you haven't noticed moderate flys in the face if reality. Especially since you can't seem to do that for Christianity. They are not parsed out but are part of the Islamic theology as it is commonly interpreted.
In fact, I think you and others who insist on such parsing prevents any uniting in the west by constantly bashing the non-islamic partner for being responsible for its own victimization and excusing the islamic partner from any responsibility in victimizing.
You find me the Islamic advocates to align with for action. What you keep bring up is the people bound and determined not to be blamed only, only in blaming,.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

painterswife said:


> No one is doing that. However many are saying absolutely horrible things that really are not true. They are demonizing an entire religion and millions of people because of a small portion of people of the same religion.


Wow- just like those remarks about Christianity........


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

where I want to said:


> Wow- just like those remarks about Christianity........


I agree. It goes both ways. I would prefer not to have anyone have to defend or denigrate any religion. I don't want to have to defend my stance on my belief in a god or no god. However you can see that Christians can not even agree on what the tenets of their religion is or who is actually Christian.

Buddhists very seldom have to defend themselves because they don't often start wars using their religion. Can't be said for Christians or Islam of any generation.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

painterswife said:


> I agree. It goes both ways. I would prefer not to have anyone have to defend or denigrate any religion. I don't want to have to defend my stance on my belief in a god or no god. However you can see that Christians can not even agree on what the tenets of their religion is or who is actually Christian.
> 
> Buddhists very seldom have to defend themselves because they don't often start wars using their religion. Can't be said for Christians or Islam of any generation.


So pass by in silence. Works like magic. Confine arguments to issues and not personal emotions. 

And I think you need to look closer at Buddhists and violence. Buddhist monks have been a notorious source of war and violence during various periods where they were powerful. I think you may be confusing the American version of feel good, uncommitted religion, which infects all religions, with what happens where religion is taken seriously.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

where I want to said:


> So pass by in silence. Works like magic. Confine arguments to issues and not personal emotions.
> 
> And I think you need to look closer at Buddhists and violence. Buddhist monks have been a notorious source of war and violence during various periods where they were powerful. I think you may be confusing the American version of feel good, uncommitted religion, which infects all religions, with what happens where religion is taken seriously.


Actually no confusion. Several hundred years of Buddhists in my family tree. My grandparents included.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

MoonRiver said:


> I think if you look at polls done in predominantly Islamic countries, or even of Muslims in European countries, you will find the majority agree with radical Islam. In fact, radical Islam is Islam, Islam is radical Islam. Maybe only a small proportion act, but the majority believe.




I don't really know if that is true or not, but the validity of that statement is very relevant to the discussion here and I'll explain in a minute......



painterswife said:


> No one is doing that. However many are saying absolutely horrible things that really are not true. They are demonizing an entire religion and millions of people because of a small portion of people of the same religion.



Yes, and I would think you disagree with the post above.
Have you asked the question, _"Why?"_
Why, do people believe this way and fear that it is a widespread approval of this violence by Muslims?

You will find the answer in another of your questions, "What does Islam teach?"



painterswife said:


> Just what do you think Muslim values are? We need to know what you think they are before we can say we accept them or not.


Google this.


Taqiyya and Kitman


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

where I want to said:


> So pass by in silence. Works like magic. Confine arguments to issues and not personal emotions.
> 
> And I think you need to look closer at Buddhists and violence. Buddhist monks have been a notorious source of war and violence during various periods where they were powerful. I think you may be confusing the American version of feel good, uncommitted religion, which infects all religions, with what happens where religion is taken seriously.


False. Buddhist monks are fighting and killing Muslims... it's world wide news... comments like even the peaceful non violent Buddhist monks are left with little choice to fight or be killed.


Is there any group that they get along with

Jews....no
Christians.....no
Hindus..... no
Women.... no
Gays..... no
Atheist.... no
Buddhist..... no
Muslims....no they even kill their own.


Common thread Islamist


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> False. Buddhist monks are fighting and killing Muslims... it's world wide news... comments like even the peaceful non violent Buddhist monks are left with little choice to fight or be killed.
> 
> 
> Is there any group that they get along with
> ...


The bleeding hearts will still ignore the obvious because Obama tells them we are not at war with Islam. He's half right. They are at war with us and we refuse to fight back. Nothing wrong with Arabs. It is the religion of Islam that is the scourge of our time.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

It's all about Obama. Once he goes, depending who replaces him, it will change. Nobody will be as much of a Muslim sympathist, no matter what the party.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> It's all about Obama. Once he goes, depending who replaces him, it will change. Nobody will be as much of a Muslim sympathist, no matter what the party.


You sure are in for a reality check once we get our next President.....


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Seems to me, in the Old Testament, history shows how each king was more terrible than the king preceding; until the Kingdom crumbled, or was ransacked and taken over.

R, D, I or L-M-N-O-P...........they are ALL criminals.
Every last one of them.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

painterswife said:


> No one is doing that. However many are saying absolutely horrible things that really are not true. They are demonizing an entire religion and millions of people because of a small portion of people of the same religion.


Horrible things that ARE NOT TRUE?
Here is is again, we're being called liars.
Please supply the links to the HORRIBLE untrue things we're saying. 
Is it the videos of beheadings? Is it the burning alive of prisoners? Is it the polls showing 3/4th of muslims believe sharia law is the way to go? Is it the polls that show most muslims support terrorist acts as being justified?
What are the LIES we tell?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> Horrible things that ARE NOT TRUE?
> Here is is again, we're being called liars.
> Please supply the links to the HORRIBLE untrue things we're saying.
> Is it the videos of beheadings? Is it the burning alive of prisoners? Is it the polls showing 3/4th of muslims believe sharia law is the way t go? Is it the polls that show most muslims support terrorist acts as being justified?
> What are the LIES we tell?


Sure, first you prove Obama is not American and he is a Muslim.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

*PROOF Obama Is A Member Of The Muslim Brotherhood*

_Updated on 06/8/2015 at 01:06:32_  Barack Obama has gorged his administration with Muslim Brotherhood members. Obama openly backed the Muslim Brotherhood regime in Egypt. And Obamaâs minions are plotting their return to power. The Muslim Brotherhood front group, Council on American 
read more at *WesternJournalism* ..

If it walks like a duck and looks like one, it is usually a duck.


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## Shoden (Dec 19, 2012)

Tricky Grama said:


> Horrible things that ARE NOT TRUE?
> Here is is again, we're being called liars.
> Please supply the links to the HORRIBLE untrue things we're saying.
> Is it the videos of beheadings? Is it the burning alive of prisoners? Is it the polls showing 3/4th of muslims believe sharia law is the way t go? Is it the polls that show most muslims support terrorist acts as being justified?
> What are the LIES we tell?


I already quoted two of YOUR false statements on the very first page of this thread. And no one called you a liar. I think it's safe to assume that most of the untrue things being said in this thread are based on ignorance and not outright dishonesty, which is why I really tried to be reasonable and provide unbiased links in my responses. My goal is to fight ignorance and debunk false information.

And to be clear, I don't support Islam. It's extremely dangerous, not because of its actual teachings, but because of the large number of ignorant and fanatical followers that twist its teachings towards violence. While you can find examples of violence from followers of any faith (or non-faith, I'm not giving atheists a pass either), Muslims are FAR more likely to engage in violence to advance their beliefs than Christians, Buddhists, or any other religion.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Where do you find unbiased links? Media Matters or New York Times?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

gapeach said:


> Where do you find unbiased links? Media Matters or New York Times?


Even biased sources can provide accurate numbers of things like police officers killed by civilians as opposed to civilians killed by police officers(one of the examples Shoden refers to). Biased sources can offer differing interpretations of what those numbers mean but the numbers themselves stand alone. Continually posting wrong numbers or blatantly false information doesn't help anyone's arguments.


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Sure, first you prove Obama is not American and he is a Muslim.


 Its pretty amusing, although a bit sad, you ask for 'proof', and you get some screenshot of some yellow-journalism blogger giving his opinion. I guess thats all the 'proof' some people need. They don't want proof, they want something that tells them what they already believe. 
I find especially among the older conservatives, they think everything they read on the internet is true. They grew up in an era of trustworthy journalists, people who generally had reputations to uphold. Now that the interent allows every anonymous hack with a keyboard the ability to spout opinions and pass off opinion as fact, they get suckered in to believing everything. Seen it time and time again on this forum.


----------



## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

greg273 said:


> Its pretty amusing, although a bit sad, you ask for 'proof', and you get some screenshot of some yellow-journalism blogger giving his opinion. I guess thats all the 'proof' some people need. They don't want proof, they want something that tells them what they already believe.
> I find especially among the older conservatives, they think everything they read on the internet is true. They grew up in an era of trustworthy journalists, people who generally had reputations to uphold. Now that the interent allows every anonymous hack with a keyboard the ability to spout opinions and pass off opinion as fact, they get suckered in to believing everything. Seen it time and time again on this forum.


Yes and no, they will believe anything that tells them what they want to believe no matter how dubious the source, but if it is contrary to their beliefs it's the 'liberal media' and not to be trusted.

Bias is ok as long as it's confirmatory.

ETA Not just ok, but desirable and actively sought.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

gapeach said:


> *PROOF Obama Is A Member Of The Muslim Brotherhood*
> 
> _Updated on 06/8/2015 at 01:06:32_  Barack Obama has gorged his administration with Muslim Brotherhood members. Obama openly backed the Muslim Brotherhood regime in Egypt. And Obamaâs minions are plotting their return to power. The Muslim Brotherhood front group, Council on American
> read more at *WesternJournalism* ..
> ...


What:knitting: is a lie here?

Older people. If you can't find anything else to criticize, you go personal. Actually I could be in my 20's and you would not know any better. There are plenty of younger people who don't believe in the liberal garbage.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=108&v=tCAffMSWSzY*



Obama on Islam


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Tiempo said:


> Yes and no, they will believe anything that tells them what they want to believe no matter how dubious the source, but if it is contrary to their beliefs it's the 'liberal media' and not to be trusted.
> 
> Bias is ok as long as it's confirmatory.
> 
> ETA Not just ok, but desirable and actively sought.


You aren't saying that applies to just people with whom you disagree? Surely selective blindness or at least selective acknowledgement is pretty universal. 
Dismissing inconvenient facts actually seems to be a more liberal tendency, while over excitement at congenial stories seems to be favored by the conservative. But that may only be an appearance caused by there being fewer liberal congenial stories but many more liberal inconvenient facts.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> *PROOF Obama Is A Member Of The Muslim Brotherhood*
> 
> _Updated on 06/8/2015 at 01:06:32_  Barack Obama has gorged his administration with Muslim Brotherhood members. Obama openly backed the Muslim Brotherhood regime in Egypt. And Obamaâs minions are plotting their return to power. The Muslim Brotherhood front group, Council on American
> read more at *WesternJournalism* ..
> ...


Where do you find these websites? ound:


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Actually from Yahoo. 

is obama trying to get the muslim brotherhood back in eqypt


You can laugh all you want to but Western Journalism has been around a long time. 

it's no more yellow journalism than some of the leftist rags.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> Actually from Yahoo.
> 
> is obama trying to get the muslim brotherhood back in eqypt
> 
> ...


I hate to tell you this but um just because Yahoo can dredge it up doesn't make it a legitimate News source. Just look at the names of the websites there. Every one of them is an Alex Jones type rightwing conspiracy site.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

That is only your opinion. What you consider legitimate news sources I probably would not even want to read them just like I would never watch MSNBC or listen to a Barack Obama speech.

If Barack Obama could do it, he would shut all the news sources down and go directly to state run news.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> That is only your opinion. What you consider legitimate news sources I probably would not even want to read them just like I would never watch MSNBC or listen to a Barack Obama speech.
> 
> If Barack Obama could do it, he would shut all the news sources down and go directly to state run news.


 That is absolutely absurd and no he would not go to state run news. 

So you freely admit you won't look at the actual source one of your "news" stories is based on you will only look at it after it is filtered and warped by them? That explains a lot. Personally I watch the whole speech and then read the commentary.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Where is the lie in what I posted from Western Journalism?

No other President in the history of the United States has ever been such a Muslim Sympathizer. He would even say the word "terrorist" for a very long time after he was elected. Even now he is very careful when he speaks of Muslims. They get the white gloves on treatment.

He would not even call Fort Hood Terrorist Acttack a terrorist attack.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> That is absolutely absurd and no he would not go to state run news.
> 
> So you freely admit you won't look at the actual source one of your "news" stories is based on you will only look at it after it is filtered and warped by them? That explains a lot. Personally I watch the whole speech and then read the commentary.


I have never listened to him speak and don't intend to. I have heard little excerpts of his speeches when I couldn't get to the tv quickly enough to turn him off.


----------



## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> I hate to tell you this but um just because Yahoo can dredge it up doesn't make it a legitimate News source. Just look at the names of the websites there. Every one of them is an Alex Jones type rightwing conspiracy site.


Name a legit News source.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

7thswan said:


> Name a legit News source.


Well it would be someone who actually reports news not their personal opinions on the news. Every source will have some bias we are all human and our biases leak in, editors choose spin, etc. Unfortunately a lot of websites these days are more concerned with page hits than they are with true journalism and so we have seen the rise of outlandish titles and crazy op-eds guaranteed to upset people. 

I try to read a story from several sources. A very large percentage of stories originate from the AP and then are tweaked a bit by everyone else. So you might as well start with their website and work your way out. The next thing I check is a local news source. They tend to flesh out the basic story that hits the national wire. I like reading opposing views on some things like politics just to get the spin from both sides. 

I do not have any one particular source for news. I see a headline that catches my eye somewhere and then Google it and read 6 or 8 stories from a variety of sources. 

The real question here is do you go to sources that confirm your bias? Or do you look for the truth spread across a variety of sources even if it flies in the face of your bias?

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/fronts/HOME?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME


----------



## Shoden (Dec 19, 2012)

gapeach said:


> He would even say the word "terrorist" for a very long time after he was elected. Even now he is very careful when he speaks of Muslims. They get the white gloves on treatment.


I assume you meant "woudn't" instead of would. And based on your self-admitted bias, I'm willing to chalk this up as ignorance instead of lying.

2008: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/15/us/politics/15text-obama.html?pagewanted=all - "Todayâs dangers are different, though no less grave. The power to destroy life on a catastrophic scale now risks falling into the hands of *terrorists*.
...
We could have deployed the full force of American power to hunt down and destroy Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda, the Taliban, and all of the *terrorists* responsible for 9/11, while supporting real security in Afghanistan."

2009, Jan 20 (Inaugural speech): "And for those who seek to advance their aims by inducing *terror* and slaughtering innocents, we say to you now that, "Our spirit is stronger and cannot be broken. You cannot outlast us, and we will defeat you."" - _Although I guess that doesn't count, since even though he said "terror" and was talking about terrorists, he didn't stick the "ist" on the end._

2009, March 27: http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2009/03/27/president-obamas-speech-on-afghanistan-and-pakistan - "So let me be clear: al Qaeda and its allies - the *terrorists* who planned and supported the 9/11 attacks - are in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Multiple intelligence estimates have warned that al Qaeda is actively planning attacks on the U.S. homeland from its safe-haven in Pakistan. And if the Afghan government falls to the Taliban - or allows al Qaeda to go unchallenged - that country will again be a base for *terrorists* who want to kill as many of our people as they possibly can."

2009, May 21st: https://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-On-National-Security-5-21-09/ - Terrorist is mentioned 18 times in this one speech, so I'm not going to quote all of them.

And finally, since I don't have time to keep finding all the times he said "terrorist", I'm happy to have found this resource that has already done that research: http://blog.lib.umn.edu/cspg/smartpolitics/2013/04/obama_has_mentioned_terrorism.php - "Obama Has Mentioned Terrorism Nearly 1,500 Times as President" (and that was as of early 2013).


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Shoden,

He called the Fort Hood attack "workplace violence" and wouldn't say terrorism in the Benghazi terrorist attack. 


 *Obama's claim he called Benghazi an 'act of terrorism' - The ...*

www.washingtonpost.com/.../2013/05/13/7b65b83e-bc14-11e2-97d4-a479289a31f9_blog.html - Similar pages
May 13, 2013 *...* President *Obama* asserts he called the *Benghazi attack* an &#8220;act of ... Indeed, the initial unedited talking points *did* not *call* it an act of terrorism.
 *CNN Fact Check: A day after Libya attack, Obama described it as ...*

www.cnn.com/2012/10/17/politics/fact-check-terror/ - 349k - Cached - Similar pages
Oct 17, 2012 *...* President Barack *Obama* said he identified the September 11 *attack* in ... "It took the president 14 days" to describe *Benghazi attack* as a terror act, .
*Pentagon will not label Fort Hood shootings as terrorist attack ...*

www.washingtontimes.com/.../?page=all - 177k - Cached - Similar pages
Oct 22, 2012 *...* Labeling the shootings *workplace violence* instead of terrorism, ... ago *called* on the administration to reclassify the *attack* as terrorism,
I do not like Barack Obama and I make no bones about it.
I have never called one of the posters here a name or said anything derogatory about one of them and *never* would I ever call another poster ignorant.*
*


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

gapeach said:


> Where is the lie in what I posted from Western Journalism?


 The screen grab has 3 sentences...mostly opinion with a little bit of fact thrown in,with some innuendo. Is telling a half-truth a lie? 


> Barack Obama has gorged his administration with Muslim Brotherhood members


 Sounds like opinion mixed with hyperbole. 'Gorged'?? Are there Muslims in the Obama admin? Yep, just as there are Muslims in America. 

.


> Obama openly backed the Muslim Brotherhood regime in Egypt.


 A half-truth. The Muslim Brotherhood was the victorious political party in Egypts first democratic election and Obama recognized them as such. Was Obama supposed to ignore the results of the election? 



> And Obamaâs minions are plotting their return to power.


 More half-truths and innuendo. Not really sure who they are talking about, if Egyptians, then yes, the Muslim Brotherhood party is surely plotting to return to power, just as ther GOP is plotting to return to power in the US. That part of the statement is true. Calling them 'Obamas Minions' falls into the realm of opinion and conjecture, with a good dash of hyperbole thrown in as red-meat for the core demographic the website is trying to reach.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> Shoden,
> 
> He called the Fort Hood attack "workplace violence" and wouldn't say terrorism in the Benghazi terrorist attack.
> 
> ...


He didn't call you ignorant which is frequently mistaken for a pejorative. He said you based your opinion on ignorance of the subject which he then proved. 

You said:


> He would[n't] even say the word "terrorist" for a very long time after he was elected.


He disproved that with his final link. Obviously you were unaware (ignorant) of the fact that Obama has used the term terrorist 1,500 times as President.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

image: http://theblacksphere.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/muslimsWH.jpeg
muslimsWH
Read more at http://theblacksphere.net/2013/04/devout-muslims-in-key-positions-in-the-white-house/

Not just Musims but Muslim Activists.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

More detail about the Muslims in the White House.

*Arif Alikhan* &#8211; Devout Muslim, Assistant Secretary for Policy Development for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security
*Mohammed Elibiary* &#8211; Homeland Security Adviser Elibiary appeared at a conference honoring Ayatollah Khomeini, has made attacks on prosecution of terrorist fundraisers, has actively promoted jihadist ideology godfather Say--- Qutb, and threatened a Dallas Morning News journalist who repeatedly exposed his extremist views.
*Rashad Hussain* &#8211; Special Envoy to the (OIC) Organization of the Islamic Conference. Hussain is &#8220;a hafiz of the Qur&#8217;an&#8221;&#8211;An individual earns this designation by committing to memory the Qur&#8217;an in its entirety and enjoys high status among Sharia-adherent Muslims who regard this feat as proof of a deep devotion to Allah.
The OIC is headquartered in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. It is dedicated in its documents to spreading Islamic law, or sharia.
*Salam al-Marayati* &#8211; Obama Adviser &#8211;founder Muslim Public Affairs Council and its current executive director, and a Muslim leader who said that Israel should have been added to the&#8221;suspect list&#8221; for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
*Imam Mohamed Magid* &#8211; Obama&#8217;s Sharia Czar &#8211; President of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA). Magid was born and raised in Sudan and immigrated to the United States in 1987. Imam Magid studied with his father, Al-Haj Majd Haj Mosa, described by one watchdog website as &#8220;a Cairo-trained Muslim Brotherhood scholar&#8221; who has served as the top cleric in the Republic of the Sudan, one of the most Sharia-adherent nations in the world.
In 2012, ISNA hosted Dawud Walid who said, &#8220;One of the greatest social ills facing American today is Islamophobia, and anti-Muslim bigotry. And if you trace the organizations and the main advocates and activists in Islamophobia in America, you will see that all those organizations are pro-Israeli occupation organizations and activists.&#8221;
*Eboo Patel* &#8211; Advisory Council on Faith-Based Neighborhood Partnerships &#8211; Patel is the founder and executive director of the Interfaith Youth Core, a Chicago-based international nonprofit that promotes interfaith cooperation.​*A good source for more on the Muslim and Muslim Brotherhood infiltration into the White House can be found in Frank Gaffney&#8217;s The Muslim Brotherhood in the Obama Administration.*


Read more at http://theblacksphere.net/2013/04/devout-muslims-in-key-positions-in-the-white-house/

It is easy to see why some of you pro Sharia people would like these guys! They have such deep devotion to Allah. 

​


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

gapeach said:


> More detail about the Muslims in the White House.
> 
> *Arif Alikhan* â Devout Muslim, Assistant Secretary for Policy Development for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security
> *Mohammed Elibiary* â Homeland Security Adviser Elibiary appeared at a conference honoring Ayatollah Khomeini, has made attacks on prosecution of terrorist fundraisers, has actively promoted jihadist ideology godfather Say--- Qutb, and threatened a Dallas Morning News journalist who repeatedly exposed his extremist views.
> ...


What is your point? You have a problem with Muslims in government?


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> He didn't call you ignorant which is frequently mistaken for a pejorative. He said you based your opinion on ignorance of the subject which he then proved.
> 
> You said: He disproved that with his final link. Obviously you were unaware (ignorant) of the fact that Obama has used the term terrorist 1,500 times as President.


He did not prove anything to me but his .


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

painterswife said:


> What is your point? You have a problem with Muslims in government?


IMO, yes my opinion.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

gapeach said:


> IMO, yes my opinion.


Well then no point in me discussing because I think that is a crazy idea.


----------



## Shoden (Dec 19, 2012)

gapeach said:


> Shoden,
> 
> He called the Fort Hood attack "workplace violence" and wouldn't say terrorism in the Benghazi terrorist attack.
> 
> ...


And I didn't question your claim about the Fort Hood attack, because that was accurate and I agree with you on that. I questioned your false claim about him not using the work "terrorist" for a very long time after he was elected.

Your claim was either based on ignorance, or you were lying. There's nothing wrong with being ignorant. Everyone has stuff that they're ignorant about, including me. Ignorance only becomes a problem when you try to do something that you're ignorant about, or when you keep opening your mouth on a subject that you're ignorant about. 

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt" - Commonly attributed to Abraham Lincoln or Mark Twain, likely never said by either, but a good saying to keep in mind. It would really cut down on the posts in general chat though...


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> He did not prove anything to me but his .


Okay then since facts are not proof to you I guess we will have to leave you to your rightwing spin blogs. Willful ignorance can not be cured.


----------



## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

painterswife said:


> Well then no point in me discussing because I think that is a crazy idea.


They don't belive in freedom, we don't need them.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

7thswan said:


> They don't belive in freedom, we don't need them.


Wow. And if I painted with such a broad brush about Christians you would be having the screaming meemies.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

7thswan said:


> They don't belive in freedom, we don't need them.


You don't know what they believe in.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Shoden said:


> And I didn't question your claim about the Fort Hood attack, because that was accurate and I agree with you on that. I questioned your false claim about him not using the work "terrorist" for a very long time after he was elected.
> 
> Your claim was either based on ignorance, or you were lying. There's nothing wrong with being ignorant. Everyone has stuff that they're ignorant about, including me. Ignorance only becomes a problem when you try to do something that you're ignorant about, or when you keep opening your mouth on a subject that you're ignorant about.
> 
> "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt" - Commonly attributed to Abraham Lincoln or Mark Twain, likely never said by either, but a good saying to keep in mind. It would really cut down on the posts in general chat though...


*King: Use word 'terrorism' more*

New York Rep. Peter King, a leading Republican critic of the White House on terror policy, offered a piece of advice on "Good Morning America" today: Obama should speak the word "terrorism" more.

"You are saying someone should be held accountable. Name one other specific recommendation the president could implement right now to fix this," host George Stephanopoulos said to King.
*
"I think one main thing would be to &#8212; just himself to use the word terrorism more often," said King, the ranking Republican on the Homeland Security Committee.
*
King continued with more practical-minded suggestions, from expanding secondary screening to sending the Christmas bomber "into a military tribunal rather than the criminal justice system."
But King's first instinct highlights an underlying fact about Obama's counterterrorism policy, one explored by Peter Baker in the Times Magazine:* It's defined by substantive continuity with the later Bush years &#8212; including the move to close Guantanamo &#8212; and the most dramatic change has been the deliberate decision to lower the rhetorical temperature. And critics sometimes seem to want a rhetorical shift as much as a practical one.*
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0110/King_Use_word_terrorism_more.html


I don't agree about the word ignorant so please do not post to me at all if you cannot do so respectfully. Maybe it is a difference in our ages and our cultures. I try not to be disrespectful even though I don't agree with people.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> Okay then since facts are not proof to you I guess we will have to leave you to your rightwing spin blogs. Willful ignorance can not be cured.


There are words that I could use to describe your views too but it is really not that important to me.
Being leftwing is far worse than being to the right.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

painterswife said:


> What is your point? You have a problem with Muslims in government?



Yes, I certainly do. I really don't want any Sharia loving Muslims in our government.


----------



## Shoden (Dec 19, 2012)

gapeach said:


> He did not prove anything to me but his .


What could you possibly be saying about me that needs to be censored? That I value truth and knowledge over deceit and ignorance?

At least when I corrected Tricky Grama's false claim about the number of police killed, she had the moral fortitude to admit that she was incorrect on the matter.

You just keep deflecting, changing the subject, or resort to having to use the censored icon.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

gapeach said:


> Yes, I certainly do. I really don't want any Sharia loving Muslims in our government.


How about Atheists? Or Agnostics? Buddhists? Hindu? Sikhs?


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-obama-islam-terrorism-20150112-story.html

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/sus...gives-two-reasons-avoiding-term-radical-islam

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-avoids-calling-terrorism-islamic/





Shoden said:


> And I didn't question your claim about the Fort Hood attack, because that was accurate and I agree with you on that. I questioned your false claim about him not using the work "terrorist" for a very long time after he was elected.
> 
> Your claim was either based on ignorance, or you were lying. There's nothing wrong with being ignorant. Everyone has stuff that they're ignorant about, including me. Ignorance only becomes a problem when you try to do something that you're ignorant about, or when you keep opening your mouth on a subject that you're ignorant about.
> 
> "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt" - Commonly attributed to Abraham Lincoln or Mark Twain, likely never said by either, but a good saying to keep in mind. It would really cut down on the posts in general chat though...



I just posted the first three articles that came up in a google search that cover the Administration's own explanation for why they avoid using Islam and terrorism in the same sentence.
As to your last paragraph in the quoted post- yes......


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

painterswife said:


> How about Atheists? Or Agnostics? Buddhists? Hindu? Sikhs?



None of that group has announced Death to Americans or Allah Akbar but the Muslims!


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

gapeach said:


> None of that group has announced Death to Americans or Allah Akbar!


Not every Muslim has either but yet you are judging an entire religion by some of them. That is the definition of bigotry.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

painterswife said:


> How about Atheists? Or Agnostics? Buddhists? Hindu? Sikhs?


Pretty much non-terrorists bombing religions are welcome on my part. I don't need someone enforcing their religious view by death threats. Intellectual stimulation is enough.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

where I want to said:


> Pretty much non-terrorists bombing religions are welcome on my part. I don't need someone enforcing their religious view by death threats. Intellectual stimulation is enough.


I guess Catholics are not welcome then.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Not every Muslim has either but yet you are judging an entire religion by some of them. That is the definition of bigotry.


Obama: "We are not at war with Islam, we are at war with those who have perverted Islam."
So should call them the Perverted Islamic terrorists?


You can think what you want...It is still a free country.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Sure, first you prove Obama is not American and he is a Muslim.


I beg your pardon? Would that be the horrible lies about muslims we tell?

Do you not know Barack Hussein Obama Sr. was muslim? Did you not know his mother converted? Do you think his step father, Soetro, was Christian? He was/is muslim. 
No one denies Barack Hussein Obama in American, but many believe he is UN-American.
We were always told "what difference does it make" but you seem to think its horrible to be born muslim.


----------



## Shoden (Dec 19, 2012)

where I want to said:


> I just posted the first three articles that came up in a google search that cover the Administration's own explanation for why they avoid using Islam and terrorism in the same sentence.
> As to your last paragraph in the guoted post- yes......


And that wasn't what gapeach claimed. If she had said that, then I wouldn't have had a problem with it. She doesn't need you moving the goalposts for her.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Shoden said:


> I already quoted two of YOUR false statements on the very first page of this thread. And no one called you a liar. I think it's safe to assume that most of the untrue things being said in this thread are based on ignorance and not outright dishonesty, which is why I really tried to be reasonable and provide unbiased links in my responses. My goal is to fight ignorance and debunk false information.
> 
> And to be clear, I don't support Islam. It's extremely dangerous, not because of its actual teachings, but because of the large number of ignorant and fanatical followers that twist its teachings towards violence. While you can find examples of violence from followers of any faith (or non-faith, I'm not giving atheists a pass either), Muslims are FAR more likely to engage in violence to advance their beliefs than Christians, Buddhists, or any other religion.


How about we see your version of Sharia Law, then. How 'bout we see your version of how many muslims want it to be the law of the land. 
How 'bout we see your version of how AMERICAN muslims celebrate Memorial Day.
How 'bout we see your version of muslims interviewed after the French "Charlie" attack?


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

"I questioned your false claim about him not using the work "terrorist" for a very long time after he was elected." From your own post. Those very fluid goal posts of your own, I guess.






Shoden said:


> And that wasn't what gapeach claimed. If she had said that, then I wouldn't have had a problem with it. She doesn't need you moving the goalposts for her.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

painterswife said:


> How about Atheists? Or Agnostics? Buddhists? Hindu? Sikhs?


Possibly, you could start own thread on those beliefs. B/c anyone would be hard pressed to find the millions of souls murdered in the last 2K yrs by ANY of those groups. Not one person here is concerned w/any of those groups. What could be your point? 
Do you know the words to "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"?


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

painterswife said:


> I guess Catholics are not welcome then.


What does being Catholic have to do with Muslims and why would Catholics not be welcome. We have millions of them living in the USA and I don't remember any Catholics ever bringing threats.
Catholics are Christians anyway.

The *Catholic Church in the United States* is part of the worldwide Catholic Church.
With 78.2 million baptized members, it is the largest religious denomination in the United States, comprising 24% of the population. The United States has the fourth largest Catholic population in the world, after Brazil, Mexico and the Philippines,[1] the largest Catholic minority population, and the largest English-speaking Catholic population.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Not every Muslim has either but yet you are judging an entire religion by some of them. That is the definition of bigotry.


Again, PLEASE! For the love of pete, stop this LIE! WHY do you think we've provided links telling the % of muslim believin in sharia? % condoning terrorist acts? IS it 100%?


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

painterswife said:


> I guess Catholics are not welcome then.


Your post offends me.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> I beg your pardon? Would that be the horrible lies about muslims we tell?
> 
> Do you not know Barack Hussein Obama Sr. was muslim? Did you not know his mother converted? Do you think his step father, Soetro, was Christian? He was/is muslim.
> No one denies Barack Hussein Obama in American, but many believe he is UN-American.
> We were always told "what difference does it make" but you seem to think its horrible to be born muslim.


You might want to take things in context. You might pickup on what the writer was saying then.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

where I want to said:


> Pretty much non-terrorists bombing religions are welcome on my part. I don't need someone enforcing their religious view by death threats. Intellectual stimulation is enough.


So no Christians then eh?


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> Your post offends me.


How? Please explain.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/05/video*-minneapolis-muslims-prefer-sharia-want-blasphemy-laws-in-us
*
Why does our government insist on importing people that think like this?
Should we offer to pay for a "one way" ticket back "home" for these kinds of people?
It seems they would be more happy in Somalia or Saudi Arabia and like Sharia Law.

I agree 100% If that makes me a bigot, then so be it!


----------



## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

painterswife said:


> You don't know what they believe in.


Sure I do, look at all the messes they cause worldwide. They have their sharia law,which is their religion , sure dosen't mesh with freedom.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

where I want to said:


> Pretty much non-terrorists bombing religions are welcome on my part. I don't need someone enforcing their religious view by death threats. Intellectual stimulation is enough.


Prots: 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/15/petrol-bombs-catholic-church-belfast

Catholics: 

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/05/30/uk-northernireland-blast-idUKKBN0EA0P720140530


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

http://asianhistory.about.com/od/warsinasia/p/ShaolinMonksPro.htm
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tibetan-monk-protests-turn-deadly/
http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/22/world/asia/buddhism-violence/
http://www.samurai-archives.com/bdij.html
http://en.qantara.de/content/anti-m...lanka-surge-of-radical-buddhism-in-south-asia
http://time.com/3090990/how-an-extremist-buddhist-network-is-sowing-hatred-across-asia/






painterswife said:


> Actually no confusion. Several hundred years of Buddhists in my family tree. My grandparents included.


Just a few links. On Buddhist violence.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

So basically what we have proved here is every religion can be violent and only Atheists should be in Congress right?


----------



## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> Well it would be someone who actually reports news not their personal opinions on the news. Every source will have some bias we are all human and our biases leak in, editors choose spin, etc. Unfortunately a lot of websites these days are more concerned with page hits than they are with true journalism and so we have seen the rise of outlandish titles and crazy op-eds guaranteed to upset people.
> 
> I try to read a story from several sources. A very large percentage of stories originate from the AP and then are tweaked a bit by everyone else. So you might as well start with their website and work your way out. The next thing I check is a local news source. They tend to flesh out the basic story that hits the national wire. I like reading opposing views on some things like politics just to get the spin from both sides.
> 
> ...


I'm not a lib. I don't have to be biased because I don't need to overlook what a fraud Obama is because I want something. Even hillary has to overlook her own "husband" being a cheater, because there is something in it for her. That's why she is just as bad, politics, especially disgusting people voted for obama because he was black, and he is only a tiny smigion black,same fools will vote for hill because she is a woman. Everyone is just playing along with the politics game when they aren't calling out what a joke on us obama is. Such a disgrace.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

where I want to said:


> http://asianhistory.about.com/od/warsinasia/p/ShaolinMonksPro.htm
> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tibetan-monk-protests-turn-deadly/
> http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/22/world/asia/buddhism-violence/
> http://www.samurai-archives.com/bdij.html
> ...



Have you read those links? I will have to assume not.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

7thswan said:


> I'm not a lib. I don't have to be biased because I don't need to overlook what a fraud Obama is because I want something. Even hillary has to overlook her own "husband" being a cheater, because there is something in it for her. That's why she is just as bad, politics, especially disgusting people voted for obama because he was black, and he is only a tiny smigion black,same fools will vote for hill because she is a woman. Everyone is just playing along with the politics game when they aren't calling out what a joke on us obama is. Such a disgrace.


Oh I definitely see no bias there. ound:


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Patchouli said:


> So basically what we have proved here is every religion can be violent and only Atheists should be in Congress right?


They do keep putting their feet right into their mouths over and over again.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> Prots:
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/15/petrol-bombs-catholic-church-belfast
> 
> ...


I never approved of IRA violence being funded from the US. But then again my interest was lessened by the fact they conducted their violence against each other. They did not, for example, bomb a mall in Africa or the US just because some one said that they objected to either Catholics or Protestants or Irish independence from the UK or that tge UK had the right of the matter. 
Why you think that violence conducted by any one, Christian or otherwise, should act as an excuse for widespread Muslim violence is strange. That is like saying a drunk driver who is Catholic means the drunk driver who Presbyterian is just fine. It is possible, that if the Pope declared was on all non-Catholics, I would distrust Catholics, but that is not on the horizon.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

where I want to said:


> I never approved of IRA violence being funded from the US. But then again my interest was lessened by the fact they conducted their violence against each other. They did not, for example, bomb a mall in Africa or the US just because some one said that they objected to either Catholics or Protestants or Irish independence from the UK or that tge UK had the right of the matter.
> Why you think that violence conducted by any one, Christian or otherwise, should act as an excuse for widespread Muslim violence is strange. That is like saying a drunk driver who is Catholic means the drunk driver who Presbyterian is just fine. It is possible, that if the Pope declared was on all non-Catholics, I would distrust Catholics, but that is not on the horizon.


It does not count if it is in their country.:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

painterswife said:


> Have you read those links? I will have to assume not.


Assuming is a vice rampant in this thead. If you have a point other than sniping, make it.


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## Shoden (Dec 19, 2012)

Tricky Grama said:


> How about we see your version of Sharia Law, then. How 'bout we see your version of how many muslims want it to be the law of the land.
> How 'bout we see your version of how AMERICAN muslims celebrate Memorial Day.
> How 'bout we see your version of muslims interviewed after the French "Charlie" attack?


What does ANY of that have to do with what I said? The "move the goalposts" game seems to be very popular with some people.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

where I want to said:


> Assuming is a vice rampant in this thead. If you have a point other than sniping, make it.


I made it. Did you read those links.

Half are history and the other half the Buddhists are being attacked and defending themselves.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

I still fail to see anywhere that any other group-religion is not the correct term for Islam, it is a theocratic political philosophy-has wrecked havoc like this one. Snippets of civil wars, other skirmishes here & there are in no way even CLOSE to 2K years of hatred & murder by radical Islamists. 
I think someone should start a math thread. Explain % and explain small #s vs millions.


----------



## Shoden (Dec 19, 2012)

where I want to said:


> "I questioned your false claim about him not using the work "terrorist" for a very long time after he was elected." From your own post. Those very fluid goal posts of your own, I guess.


Seriously? From my own quote "I questioned your false claim about him not using the work "terrorist" for a very long time after he was elected."

Your counter: "why they avoid using Islam and terrorism in the same sentence".

Do you really not see the difference in those statements? I agree with the second one, and wouldn't have had a problem with her saying that. She didn't say that.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

painterswife said:


> They do keep putting their feet right into their mouths over and over again.


No, as it has been repeatedly mentioned that the non-religious have a horrendous record of violence in their relatively short history of control. In fact that is one of the reasons I believe in the value of some religions- it seems to occasionally act as a check on those most progressive ideas of government enforcing social values by killing, imprisoning and war. A few who say that is immoral because they have faith and see their duty to oppose control rather than those who have none and clearly see the futility of risking their already brief life in opposition.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Shoden said:


> Seriously? From my own quote "I questioned your false claim about him not using the work "terrorist" for a very long time after he was elected."
> 
> Your counter: "why they avoid using Islam and terrorism in the same sentence".
> 
> Do you really not see the difference in those statements? I agree with the second one, and wouldn't have had a problem with her saying that. She didn't say that.


No frankly I don't where the difference lies. The links are their explanation as to why he did not use the word terrorist for a long time. The issue was linking terrorism and Islam. And, if that meant he hardly ever used the word at all, then that was his choice.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

where I want to said:


> I never approved of IRA violence being funded from the US. But then again my interest was lessened by the fact they conducted their violence against each other. They did not, for example, bomb a mall in Africa or the US just because some one said that they objected to either Catholics or Protestants or Irish independence from the UK or that tge UK had the right of the matter.
> Why you think that violence conducted by any one, Christian or otherwise, should act as an excuse for widespread Muslim violence is strange. That is like saying a drunk driver who is Catholic means the drunk driver who Presbyterian is just fine. It is possible, that if the Pope declared was on all non-Catholics, I would distrust Catholics, but that is not on the horizon.


Speaking of moving goal posts. You said: 


where I want to said:


> Pretty much non-terrorists bombing religions are welcome on my part. I don't need someone enforcing their religious view by death threats. Intellectual stimulation is enough.


You didn't add any excuses for said terrorist religious bombers. Like it's okay so long as they do it in their own country. Or how many bombs they have to toss. I have already linked to Christian terrorists who bombed abortion clinics here in the good old US of A. So tell us why they don't count....


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

7thswan said:


> Sure I do, look at all the messes they cause worldwide. They have their sharia law,which is their religion , sure dosen't mesh with freedom.


or females.... It's hard for me to think about how brow beaten those women must be to say that they want Sharia Law or that they want it for their girl babies.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> or females.... It's hard for me to think about how brow beaten those women must be to say that they want Sharia Law or that they want it for their girl babies.


Just ask a Duggar.


----------



## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> Your post offends me.


This offends me. My home town.


http://huddled.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Blast-damage-2.jpg


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Tiempo said:


> This offends me. That hole under what's left of the elevated walkway used to be my place of employment.
> 
> 
> http://huddled.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Blast-damage-2.jpg


This was from?


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

JeffreyD said:


> This was from?



Duplicate


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

JeffreyD said:


> This was from?


Manchester.

ETA I was mistaken though, looking at the pic again, the place I worked was directly across the street and not in the pic. It too was destroyed though.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/02/15/article-0-0053DDFB00000258-65_468x317.jpg


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Tiempo said:


> Manchester.
> 
> ETA I was mistaken though, looking at the pic again, the place I worked was directly across the street and not in the pic. It too was destroyed though.


Not this guy?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-31692375

Six years ago, the Pakistani national had been living in the north-west English city where he plotted to kill hundreds in a bombing attack at the city centre's Arndale shopping complex during Easter weekend.
Naseer, who was extradited from the UK to the United States in 2013, was convicted of providing and conspiring to provide material support to al-Qaeda and conspiring to use a destructive device.

This is it:

1996: Huge explosion rocks central Manchester. Wow, not good at all!


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

JeffreyD said:


> Not this guy?
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-31692375
> 
> ...


Sucks no matter who is blowing up, or planning to blow up you town. Violent extremists are scum, period.

The 1996 IRA bomb in Manchester was the biggest truck bomb the IRA ever detonated. My mother's friend was badly injured by flying glass.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> Just ask a Duggar.


The Duggars don't practice genital mutilation and under Sharia law the penalty for resisting rape is torture and death for women.
In 2008, in Somalia, 13-year old Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was accused of adultery (âzinaââin her case, sex outside of marriage). She had reported being gang-raped to the controlling jihadist group there, al-Shabab. The very act of accusing her rapists condemned herâ but not her rapistsâ to a brutal death-by-stoning at the hands of fifty men. She begged for mercy, crying out up until the moment of her death.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> The Duggars don't practice genital mutilation and under Sharia law the penalty for resisting rape is torture and death for women.
> In 2008, in Somalia, 13-year old Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was accused of adultery (âzinaââin her case, sex outside of marriage). She had reported being gang-raped to the controlling jihadist group there, al-Shabab. The very act of accusing her rapists condemned herâ but not her rapistsâ to a brutal death-by-stoning at the hands of fifty men. She begged for mercy, crying out up until the moment of her death.


Not everyone follows their own rules. The Duggars have some odd ideas on rape themselves you know like there is no such thing in marriage. The wife submits whether she likes it or not....

Oh and genital mutilation is not specifically Muslim, it is a cultural thing in certain African countries. Even Christians in Africa do it.

http://www.stopfgmmideast.org/background/islam-or-culture/



> Female Genital Mutilation occurs in non-Muslim societies in Africa and is practiced by Christians, Muslims and Animists alike. In Egypt, where perhaps 97 percent of girls suffer genital mutilation, both Christian Copts and Muslims are complicit. Thus, it has long been concluded to be a cultural practice, not connected to religion.
> 
> 
> 
> However, on the village level, those who commit the practice offer a mix of cultural and religious reasons for the practice. Christians and Muslims alike believe that circumcision of girls prevents them from vice and makes them more attractive for future husbands; mothers fear that their daughters canât get married if they have not been cut.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Tiempo said:


> Sucks no matter who is blowing up, or planning to blow up you town. Violent extremists are scum, period.
> 
> The 1996 IRA bomb in Manchester was the biggest truck bomb the IRA ever detonated. My mother's friend was badly injured by flying glass.


I apologise if my links dredged up any painful memories for you. I agree that violent extremists are scum.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

gapeach said:


> The Duggars don't practice genital mutilation and under Sharia law the penalty for resisting rape is torture and death for women.
> In 2008, in Somalia, 13-year old Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was accused of adultery (âzinaââin her case, sex outside of marriage). She had reported being gang-raped to the controlling jihadist group there, al-Shabab. The very act of accusing her rapists condemned herâ but not her rapistsâ to a brutal death-by-stoning at the hands of fifty men. She begged for mercy, crying out up until the moment of her death.


Wounder if Commiecare will provide mutilation services.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> Speaking of moving goal posts. You said:
> 
> 
> You didn't add any excuses for said terrorist religious bombers. Like it's okay so long as they do it in their own country. Or how many bombs they have to toss. I have already linked to Christian terrorists who bombed abortion clinics here in the good old US of A. So tell us why they don't count....


Who said terrorists are ok in their own countries? 
Calling something a civil was doesn't condone it. Maybe some supporters of this admin think so b/c that seemed to be one excuse for not helping Syria in the beginning of the conflict there...that & stating the 'rebels' could'nt be helped b/c they were doctors, lawyers, pharmacists...then drawing a red line that could not be crossed...oh, wait...

And as far as the terrorists who bombed abortion clinics...do the math. PLEASE do the math.
When Christians' murderous acts come close to the millions that Islamists commit, we'll talk. Christians & abortion clinics hardly = Bill Ayers murderous bombings.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> Just ask a Duggar.


Are you saying those girls were forced to be mutilated? Or that they were killed for rape? Or even that they were raped? Are they going to be stoned? What on earth do you think you'll gain by posting such an evil comment?

I DID see them interviewed. They have been wronged by their brother, an atrocity. The parents went to the police. They received counciling. 
Then the press put out the info, which is against the LAW! But, since it happend to a christian family the liberals, I see like you just did, are revelling in this.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> Not everyone follows their own rules. The Duggars have some odd ideas on rape themselves you know like there is no such thing in marriage. The wife submits whether she likes it or not....
> 
> Oh and genital mutilation is not specifically Muslim, it is a cultural thing in certain African countries. Even Christians in Africa do it.
> 
> http://www.stopfgmmideast.org/background/islam-or-culture/


These things are not being done in civilized countries like the United States of American unless it happens in places like Dearborn, Michigan or where the Somalians have been situated in places like St Louis or Minnesota. 

It certainly is not part of our culture in the USA as Christians.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> Speaking of moving goal posts. You said:
> 
> 
> You didn't add any excuses for said terrorist religious bombers. Like it's okay so long as they do it in their own country. Or how many bombs they have to toss. I have already linked to Christian terrorists who bombed abortion clinics here in the good old US of A. So tell us why they don't count....


You just make up this stuff and, since there is no limit to what you can make up, endless time and words can be wasted rebutting that. I never said Christian terrorists don't count nor that it is fine to bomb just in your own country. I pointed out there is a difference in those who target what they perceive to be an enemy to try and stop them and those who are willing to kill any and everyone and call it revenge. 

But apparently you think that a group, who in the name of their religion, blows up children indiscriminantly and rapes women and beheads prisoners continually world wide without hesitation is just as much a danger as a group who, in the name of their religion, mostly does minor damage in closed buildings.

I doubt that if the IRA had conducted ramdom bombing in the US, they would have found many supporters among Americans, of Irish descent or not, to say "well, it's only extreme Irish" so ignore it. I suspect that there would have been anti-IRA demonstrations everywhere and it would have included many actual Irish not to say Irish decendents. Because defending Americans is what matters.


----------



## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> These things are not being done in civilized countries like the United States of American unless it happens in places like Dearborn, Michigan or where the Somalians have been situated in places like St Louis or Minnesota.
> 
> It certainly is not part of our culture in the USA as Christians.


You are so close here to getting the point I have been making all over the place on this forum. Just take your statement one step further: It certainly is not part of their culture in the USA as Muslims either.

All the things you are currently so upset about with Muslims comes from the culture and the third world countries they are in. As I have said repeatedly you will find everything you so hate about Muslims being done by Christians in those same countries. Yes you will find some recent immigrants who hold onto those cultural wrongs but once they have settled into a first world country and their children and grandchildren are raised in one that violence, oppression of women, etc. fall away. 

You will find a sad small minority in America who take their religion to it's fundamentalist extreme whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim or whatever religion they happen to be and who do continue in their Patriarchal misogyny and oppression and even sometimes violence, some people are just misguided and some are just evil. But for the most part living in prosperity and freedom causes them to look to the best parts of their religion and not the worst anymore.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> You are so close here to getting the point I have been making all over the place on this forum. Just take your statement one step further: It certainly is not part of their culture in the USA as Muslims either.
> 
> All the things you are currently so upset about with Muslims comes from the culture and the third world countries they are in. As I have said repeatedly you will find everything you so hate about Muslims being done by Christians in those same countries. Yes you will find some recent immigrants who hold onto those cultural wrongs but once they have settled into a first world country and their children and grandchildren are raised in one that violence, oppression of women, etc. fall away.
> 
> You will find a sad small minority in America who take their religion to it's fundamentalist extreme whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim or whatever religion they happen to be and who do continue in their Patriarchal misogyny and oppression and even sometimes violence, some people are just misguided and some are just evil. But for the most part living in prosperity and freedom causes them to look to the best parts of their religion and not the worst anymore.


Again, shall we post the % of AMERICAN Muslims, meaning here in our country-AMERICA-who believe we-AS IN HERE IN AMERICA-should follow sharia law? 
It is the MAJORITY of them. NOT a tiny %. The MAJORITY of muslims living in the USA believe we should be under sharia law.
And the majority believe some terrorist acts are justified. The Majority.

Ok, now, again: I did NOT say ALL muslims want sharia law. I did NOT say all musliims are evil. I did NOT say ALL muslims are ANYTHING.
However there are a small minority of muslims here who do try to practice sharia law. Sometimes it goes unnoticed...but there are a small minority who DO practice it.


----------



## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Real happy I stayed out of this one...


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Shine said:


> Real happy I stayed out of this one...


Yet, here you are!


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

A few days ago I posted two words on this thread and another one, for those who wish to learn _why_ there is such great mistrust of Islam and muslims. 
As far as I can tell, the discussion immediately shifted to Bush bashing and finger pointing about what every other group on the planet is doing.
To my surprise, there are still the same defensive claims that the majority of 
muslims think or believe this way or that......the radicals are an unsupported minority.

I can only conclude that either the words weren't researched or they were dismissed as irrelevant and not commented on to keep it out of the discussion.

The words were "taqiyya" and "kitman". They Arabic terms from the Hadditha condone and explain lying and deception in order to further the religion and its goals.

I DID find that the Koran prohibits lying "even if it's a relative" (not too reassuring) but many of the teachings of Mohammed that contradict the Koran are seen as superior to the earlier text, much like some Christians ignore the Old Testament and think it was replaced by the NT.

My point is, if your sacred teachings say it's OK for you to lie to non muslims, then what sane person is going to believe a poll, survey or anything else that says they mean us no harm?
If this is life and death, I sure won't take that chance.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

farmrbrown said:


> I can only conclude that either the words weren't researched or they were dismissed as irrelevant and not commented on to keep it out of the discussion.
> 
> The words were "taqiyya" and "kitman". They Arabic terms from the Hadditha condone and explain lying and deception in order to further the religion and its goals.
> .


 I didnt comment on them because i have heard them before, and don't find them relevant because ANYONE can be a liar. Doesn't have to be a religious thing. Either a person is trustworthy or not. If someone wants to lie to me, thats on them. I won't have further dealings with them, its not a big deal. 
Like I said, you don't like Muslim culture, then don't be one. I don't lump all people into one catagory, I know there are good and bad people who claim all sorts of different faiths. 
And by the way, lest YOU lump all people who preach tolerance of other religion into the 'kumbaya' catagory, I assure you that is not the case. A roving band of jihadis wouldn't last too long up in this neck of the woods, I can only assume its the same where you live.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

They are truly inline with their faith when the deny believing in wanting sharia, jihad, or that they would never harm a homosexual fly. 

So, there is a trust issue.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

kasilofhome said:


> They are truly inline with their faith when the deny believing in wanting sharia, jihad, or that they would never harm a homosexual fly.
> 
> So, there is a trust issue.


What mosque did you attend?


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> A few days ago I posted two words on this thread and another one, for those who wish to learn _why_ there is such great mistrust of Islam and muslims.
> As far as I can tell, the discussion immediately shifted to Bush bashing and finger pointing about what every other group on the planet is doing.
> To my surprise, there are still the same defensive claims that the majority of
> muslims think or believe this way or that......the radicals are an unsupported minority.
> ...


We know that it is ok for Muslims to lie if they are furthering their religion and that can be pretty broad. I won't take that chance either.

I have had 2 close friends in my life who married Middle Eastern men.

One was doing clinicals to get her nursing degree in Charleston and started dating a young Iranian who was at the Citadel in pre-med. They got serious and he told her a long story about his family being rich but he needed her to marry him so that he could stay in the USA. They would have plenty of money from his family. She married him, husband became a citizen, parents were not rich and she never met them. He ran around on her constantly and he was abusive, mentally and physically. They divorced, luckily, with no children.
Another friend married an Arabic man. His family were immigrants from Syria. He was horrible to her. She had 2 children and he treated her like a slave. He would not help at all with the children, That was a wife's work. He would not allow her to go out alone and she was too afraid of him to divorce. She was my age and died a few years ago from cancer still married to him. She hated him and called him God behind his back.

I feel very lucky that we never have to come in contact with any Muslims. There are not very many in this area but that could change anytime with the Govt relocating them from Syria or another Muslim country.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

gapeach said:


> We know that it is ok for Muslims to lie if they are furthering their religion and that can be pretty broad. I won't take that chance either.
> 
> I have had 2 close friends in my life who married Middle Eastern men.
> 
> ...


Lots of American men do the same crappy things.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

greg273 said:


> What mosque did you attend?


My former boss was an Imam, does that count? I worked for him for 5 years, I had to sue him to get my unpaid wages. $23,000 over that time frame(i was a manager, but he would dock my pay for time missed, even though i made it up). He said non muslims were put here to serve them. I have a good understanding about Islam.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> We know that it is ok for Muslims to lie if they are furthering their religion and that can be pretty broad. I won't take that chance either.
> 
> I have had 2 close friends in my life who married Middle Eastern men.
> 
> ...



Because that second paragraph of yours doesn't describe a whole ton of men who are Americans, some of them Christians or Jews who were trained to treat their wives as slaves? Or men who probably aren't anything at all but treat their wives like dirt and run around on them? Can you not see your own bias here? 

I have known Muslims who were wonderful people and Christians who were evil. There is good and bad everywhere.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Can't tell you


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> I have known Muslims who were wonderful people and Christians who were evil. There is good and bad everywhere.


My bias run to being opposing those who use violence or acquiesce to violence against me , who does not subscribe to their religion. Actually because I do not subscribe to their religion.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

JeffreyD said:


> My former boss was an Imam, does that count? I worked for him for 5 years, I had to sue him to get my unpaid wages. $23,000 over that time frame(i was a manager, but he would dock my pay for time missed, even though i made it up). He said non muslims were put here to serve them. I have a good understanding about Islam.


 Because you met ONE guy who was a jerk?? ANd who happened to be a Muslim. Wow, you're almost qualified to teach Muslim studies with that extensive background!


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

painterswife said:


> Lots of American men do the same crappy things.


That's the ticket. American men and Christians are just as bad as Muslims in your mind. God help ya.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

greg273 said:


> Because you met ONE guy who was a jerk?? ANd who happened to be a Muslim. Wow, you're almost qualified to teach Muslim studies with that extensive background!


Seems to be commonly held to be an accurate method of judgement of Christians by some here.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

poppy said:


> That's the ticket. American men and Christians are just as bad as Muslims in your mind. God help ya.


Not what I said. THOUGH i am sure I could find one bad Christian or American for every bad Muslim you could find.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

greg273 said:


> Because you met ONE guy who was a jerk?? ANd who happened to be a Muslim. Wow, you're almost qualified to teach Muslim studies with that extensive background!


While you, on the other hand, live near a few Muslims and none have tried to behead you yet, which proves they are all peaceful.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

greg273 said:


> I didnt comment on them because i have heard them before, and don't find them relevant because ANYONE can be a liar. Doesn't have to be a religious thing. Either a person is trustworthy or not. If someone wants to lie to me, thats on them. I won't have further dealings with them, its not a big deal.
> Like I said, you don't like Muslim culture, then don't be one. I don't lump all people into one catagory, I know there are good and bad people who claim all sorts of different faiths.
> And by the way, lest YOU lump all people who preach tolerance of other religion into the 'kumbaya' catagory, I assure you that is not the case. A roving band of jihadis wouldn't last too long up in this neck of the woods, I can only assume its the same where you live.


That's good to know, but the reason I say it is relevant is because it isn't a personal variation I'm talking about here.
I realize there is good and bad everywhere, but this is a foundational principle in Islam.
The founder of that religion was well known for his deception, double crossing and deal breaking, and because of his success is respected for it or in spite of it, if you believe that.
To have an allowance for telling lies as a basic teaching shouldn't be overlooked, ESPECIALLY when combined with the culture.
What I'm saying is it's far easier to believe that the "good muslims" are outnumbered by the "bad" ones, rather than vice versa and I'm explaining exactly *why.*
While all of us Christians have committed the sin of lying....(those of you who just objected, please join the rest of us, LOL) our Savior Jesus, was in a word, the Truth.
This goes on even today. 
Listen to the next news broadcast from the Middle East when they use the term "ceasefire" and see if you can find an Arabic transcript.
Find that term in Arabic and research the definition.........it dates back to Mohammed himself.

That word is "hudna".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudna


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

painterswife said:


> Not what I said. THOUGH i am sure I could find one bad Christian or American for every bad Muslim you could find.


So you DID say it, or at least mean it. Nuff said.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

greg273 said:


> Because you met ONE guy who was a jerk?? ANd who happened to be a Muslim. Wow, you're almost qualified to teach Muslim studies with that extensive background!


No, you assumed it was just one man and let me correct you, i worked for him. Maybe your forgetting the part where i said he was an Imam. We had LOTS of muslims as customers. Just saying.

Apparently more qualified than you are!


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

where I want to said:


> Seems to be commonly held to be an accurate method of judgement of Christians by some here.


 Aw, there is that victim card again. Believe me, any judgement i make about people on this forum doesn't come from what religion they claim, it comes from the words they type.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

painterswife said:


> Not what I said. THOUGH i am sure I could find one bad Christian or American for every bad Muslim you could find.


Never bet on anything that eats.......


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> That's good to know, but the reason I say it is relevant is because it isn't a personal variation I'm talking about here.
> I realize there is good and bad everywhere, but this is a foundational principle in Islam.
> The founder of that religion was well known for his deception, double crossing and deal breaking, and because of his success is respected for it or in spite of it, if you believe that.
> To have an allowance for telling lies as a basic teaching shouldn't be overlooked, ESPECIALLY when combined with the culture.
> ...




I got terminate, finish
Another source 10 year truce
Another source 10 year truce.... but not for slaves or women


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

kasilofhome said:


> I got terminate, finish
> Another source 10 year truce
> Another source 10 year truce.... but not for slaves or women






Nope.......keep lookin'.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Immigration to divide and conquer ten year period to do so.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Hudna, what is commonly mistranslated by Westerners as a ceasefire, is a ruse.
It means to stop fighting long enough to regroup, let your enemy put his guard down, and then attack again.
It was used by Mohammed to conquer strongholds in the Middle East.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

I read some thing that there peace and for really shorten than the ten years promised. That people from warring sides interact and Muslim bid their time to react. But they calm people in to feeling things are fine....


On story had something about starting saying that women and slaves were not protected and thus women could be taken by muslims


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

greg273 said:


> What mosque did you attend?


Are YOU monitoring any? B/c there ARE a few being monitored, thank our Lord. 
B/c there have been more than a couple that incite, that preach death to AMERICA, that foster/support 'lone wolves' that the terrorists living in our country have attended. That command -"go & kill Americans".


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

poppy said:


> While you, on the other hand, live near a few Muslims and none have tried to behead you yet, which proves they are all peaceful.


 Never said they were 'all peaceful', YOU, on the other hand, have explicitly said 'there are NO peaceful Muslims'.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

JeffreyD said:


> We had LOTS of muslims as customers. Just saying.


 Wow! How did you survive all the attempted beheadings and suicide bombings??


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

greg273 said:


> Wow! How did you survive all the attempted beheadings and suicide bombings??


Well, they knew i would kill them if they tried! Unlike yourself, i'm not the type that turns and runs away from a fight. I DO have the scars to prove it. The single reason we tolerated each other was our mutual disdain for this inept government that we have imposed upon ourselves. Yes, our mutual hatred(though for different reasons) brought our two opposing sides together!

We had to sue them because they were not adhering to our western laws, they put sharia laws before ours, And they paid for it in the end.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

JeffreyD said:


> Well, they knew i would kill them if they tried!.


 Somehow I doubt the subject came up. But that wouldn't stop anyone from trying, if they really wanted to. Of course the more likely probability is that they didn't want to murder you at all.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

greg273 said:


> Somehow I doubt the subject came up. But that wouldn't stop anyone from trying, if they really wanted to. Of course the more likely probability is that they didn't want to murder you at all.


Sure the subject came up, a lot! You see, when their told in no uncertain terms, they cower and back down. There is no doubt in my mind that if they could, they would absolutely invoke sharia law here. They also treated their women folks horribly!


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

JeffreyD said:


> Sure the subject came up, a lot! You see, when their told in no uncertain terms, they cower and back down. There is no doubt in my mind that if they could, they would absolutely invoke sharia law here. They also treated their women folks horribly!


 So they didn't even try to behead you?? Wow.
And they could invoke sharia law and it wouldn't affect you one bit, because you're not a muslim, and they'd still be subject to US federal , state and local laws. Just like you could make up your own religious rules and they wouldn't hsve to follow them. Amazing how that works.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

greg273 said:


> So they didn't even try to behead you?? Wow.
> And they could invoke sharia law and it wouldn't affect you one bit, because you're not a muslim, and they'd still be subject to US federal , state and local laws. Just like you could make up your own religious rules and they wouldn't hsve to follow them. Amazing how that works.


Well, they did try, but lost in court! Yup, it IS amazing how things work sometimes!


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