# This forum



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Okay, this started out as Freedom and Self Reliance and it was so rough most of the current members would have been afraid to enter as what we have now at the strongest is so watered down they'd not recognize it.

But, it seems some want to come to make fun, and challenge why we do some thing and such. That is just baiting and trolling to cause problems in this forum.

This forum is for a specific purpose. Most of the time the Freedom and Self Reliance portions apply to most here. But some want to trade our freedoms for convenience and not self reliant at all. So, one must assume when they start tearing down our talk here, it must be trolling and baiting.

I would greatly appreciate everyone that posts here to remember while we do a lot about weather, and land slides, and losing jobs or even having a fine if we don't buy government healthcare that the tax is. This is also about Freedom. And SELF reliance not dependence on the government or the state or someone else.

Most of us will not be able to be that self reliance, but some are strong enough to do so; some are working on it.

Just thought since there was a blurring of what goes on here, I'd define it today.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2014)

Freedom ain't freedom if it don't apply to everybody equally. Those with opposing philosophies should be free to opine, the same as anybody else, without being ridiculed and ridden hard. I support everybody's right to have an opinion, equally protected by the law, and it should be protected by the powers that be at HT. And I am self reliant. Still, I believe that people who are liberal, people who are conservative, people who are devoutly religious, people that are equally devoutly atheistic, especially people who are skeptically agnostic, looney toons, city slickers, and everybody else have the same rights that I do. I insist on it in my life, and would like to think that any forum dedicated to freedom should be dedicated to freedom for all. Not just the ones who agree with me.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I'm glad you feel that way.

That's why there are approximately 30+ forums, so there is one that fits most people.

This forum has a special purpose, and it's going to stay that purpose.

It's always been for this purpose. And not all forums fit everyone, that's why HT has so many. You can talk and discuss and limited fuss about any topic we bring up here, in GC or Political or even anything goes in Families. You don't down chickens in the chicken forum, as it's a specific forum, or put down pigs in the pig forum.

So, this is a specific forum, I've outlined what it is for now, and several times before over the years.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2014)

Please remove this subforum from my ability to view it, same as you did with politics and GC, and once again, at my request. I really don't care to participate in a subforum in which the official line is that those with differing opinions are somehow second class citizens. Whole lot of people I disagree with. Yet, in clear consciousness, I cannot participate in a subforum that proclaims freedom, but yet condones those with differing views. That ain't what freedom is about. I gotta have some standards, I'm getting on in years, and don't want to be part of anything like that. I survived and prepped fine for a very long time, politics and partialness was never, and never will be a part of survival. You'll make it or not on your own. In the final moment, nobody will care about anything except surviving another day. Won't be any discussing Obamacare or anything. The people you can rely on will be those who are ready and stable, not those who toe the line.

ETA: I've not turned into a liberal or anything, but I do think everybody should have equal rights. Regardless of whether or not they think like me.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

When it comes to personal freedom, we're all pretty much on our own journey. I've come to realize that you're really as free as you make yourself (at least in this country anyway).


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

zong said:


> Freedom ain't freedom if it don't apply to everybody equally. Those with opposing philosophies should be free to opine, the same as anybody else, without being ridiculed and ridden hard. I support everybody's right to have an opinion, equally protected by the law, and it should be protected by the powers that be at HT. And I am self reliant. Still, I believe that people who are liberal, people who are conservative, people who are devoutly religious, people that are equally devoutly atheistic, especially people who are skeptically agnostic, looney toons, city slickers, and everybody else have the same rights that I do. I insist on it in my life, and would like to think that any forum dedicated to freedom should be dedicated to freedom for all. Not just the ones who agree with me.


But can liberalism breed freedom?


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Freedom and Government are at opposits of the spectrum.
It's not real hard. Put the big government lovers on the left and those that want none on the right. It's all about control. For some reason the ones that like control because they get pampered by the government are the biggest excuse makers at why the ones on the right should conform. There is nothing to argue about when one sees it clearly. Left will run your life, left will control business, left will tell you have to stick a dead viris in your child.....Left will hate those that want freedom such as a business-they will take Human nature called Envy and plot it against Freedom. Freedom has made life better for many, far more than the left has done. Yet it goes round and round and it has never worked the way the left wants it too. Ever. The left way, is always failure, a Lie.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

"You don't down chickens in the chicken forum, as it's a specific forum, or put down pigs in the pig forum." I've seen plenty of chickens with down, but no pigs with down. Is there a new breed?


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

zong said:


> Please remove this subforum from my ability to view it, same as you did with politics and GC, and once again, at my request. I really don't care to participate in a subforum in which the official line is that those with differing opinions are somehow second class citizens. Whole lot of people I disagree with. Yet, in clear consciousness, I cannot participate in a subforum that proclaims freedom, but yet condones those with differing views. That ain't what freedom is about. I gotta have some standards, I'm getting on in years, and don't want to be part of anything like that. I survived and prepped fine for a very long time, politics and partialness was never, and never will be a part of survival. You'll make it or not on your own. In the final moment, nobody will care about anything except surviving another day. Won't be any discussing Obamacare or anything. The people you can rely on will be those who are ready and stable, not those who toe the line.
> 
> ETA: I've not turned into a liberal or anything, but I do think everybody should have equal rights. Regardless of whether or not they think like me.


Zong, we do not have equal rights when the government makes laws that favor some over others. In this country a woman has the right to her body-(abortion); but I do not have a right to mine(HC insurance)


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## PATRICE IN IL (Mar 25, 2003)

Yeah Harry the kind your momma told you "when pigs fly" then you could do whatever it was you wanted to do. LOL


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Zong and I have talked via pm, he will not be answering here for the time being. Any time he wants to come back all he has to do is to let me know.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

I would put myself up against anyone here for self reliance, preparedness and the ability to survive. I own my own farm outright, I am debt free, I can live 100% off my land and have done so. I need less than $500 a year to cover my taxes and beyond that I can feed myself and care for myself strictly with what I raise and sell here. I am stocked for most emergencies and I could survive here if the world fell apart. 

I find it very sad that just because I don't hate the President or because I don't want to see others go without when I can pitch in to help that somehow makes me unable to be a good member here. I have no interest in taking pokes at what any of you do but I like to be able to share my opinion right along with everyone else. 

If this is really about survival and emergency preparedness then it should not matter what my particular political feelings are nor should it matter if I have a different way of going about things. If you really do believe in freedom and you really believe in what you say then you should not be so afraid of a differing opinion that you have to ban it from your board.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

What a shame. I predict zong will not be back. And his departure, as one of the few who truly walked the walk and didn&#8217;t just talk the talk, is a true loss to this forum. zong understands survival on a level few here or anywhere else will ever achieve. He shared generously of his knowledge and practical experience, and he knows a lot. His valuable posts have been made and appreciated in many places on HT. And why is he now gone? Because he dared to defend the rights of others to offer a differing point of view. I hope it was worth it.

It&#8217;s funny to me how people with a differing world view to most here are not considered true &#8220;survivalists.&#8221; I guess that&#8217;s a mistake that folks can make at their peril.

The loss of zong is, to the forum, far more than the other way around, of that I am certain. I will miss him and what he has always had to share here very much.


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

Sigh.

Here's the thing, to my way of thinking. Conservatives and liberals - the way these used to be defined - have gotten along, compromised, and even come up with some good ideas (maybe implementation wasn't so great - _but that was Bureaucracy at work_) over the years.

I hold what some would call liberal ideas, values. At the same time, I also strongly believe in what a lot of people would consider far-right ideas, too. I'm just a misfit, I guess, because I don't conveniently fit into any of the pigeon-hole labels - and I have to say, I like it that way.

The problem here, is recognizing that the Democratic party has already split into two factions; much like we hear about RINOs and the Tea Party. There were no big conventions or press releases or announcements though, about the new Democratic faction. I call them PRoPPressives, because the effect of their policies is to oppress the exercise of Freedom. And PR - symbolizes the propaganda machine that puts them and keeps them in office - making promises that can't be fulfilled -- without giving up Freedom.

One more observation: and that is that people are self-validating in their choice of sources. That choice of sources of news, information, etc is being controlled by the factions. If you read across the spectrum, more than one type of thing; more than one outlook - it strengthens your mind's ability to recognize the truth in the midst of so much compost. And the compost is coming from ALL the factions, ALL the sources... none of them are lily-white, blameless.

It's human nature to want to identify oneself with a set of values, principles, etc. And it's also human nature to take the easiest path presented to one. It's a lot of work to try to "connect the dots" and sort the compost from the truth. I don't claim to have succeeded and really, I don't think anyone does. But it's absolutely important to TRY -- and that is one of the main reasons I'm active on several different forums. I want to hear/read what other people think. Because I might be overlooking something; blind to something; or just plain, it never occurred to me.

We are ALL Americans. What I see happening - people withdrawing into their own communities of like-minded principles and completely dismissing a person as trustworthy or important simply because you disagree over a few things...

well... that so-called "American" society would be completely unrecognizable to Alexis de Tocqueville.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Frankly, all you socialists can do all the swan songs you want and I won't be sad to see the back of you.

If you think it's right and proper to use the government to steal from an individual, how can we even feel comfortable with you here discussing what we have in our pantry? You'll be the first ones to sell us out when food becomes scarce and the government offers a bounty on "hoarders".

There is no compromise in this. There cannot be. I can't allow a wolf to eat "just a little bit of my leg".

And frankly, I don't see how some of you will be any big loss. I don't recall many informative threads by y'all, but I sure notice you come out of the woodwork to bash someone when you don't like what they're saying.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

It may have started out as Freedom and self-reliance, but now it is Survival and Emergency Preparedness.

And I do agree that folks that just come to poke fun shouldn't be allowed to denigrate, but I guess I just don't really see that much of it.


But... the ones that come down to poke fun are at least coming down and they are reading.
They may poke fun, but perhaps they are also learning something and the poking will die down as they start to think. A lot of people in this country are starting to think.
We may be thinking about the issues from different sides, but we ALL see the trouble ahead.

I see it differently than some posters here. Just the opposite, in fact.
But I agree that the S is HTF.

And if we are to survive, we are going to need to be tolerant with each other and learn to get along.

for instance... myself and the venerable Ernie. (Hi Ernie!)
Now, several years ago Ernie was making my head come off.
He was driving me wild and not in that good way.

But, through S&EP and further discussion etc..
Ernie and I get along famously.
We like each other.
Heck.. the man offered to pull my bacon out of the fire if my rear started smoking too bad.
Now THAT is survival.

That's what it is all about.
If the chunks come through the blades then the liberal neighbors down the block and the conservative NRA members are going to have to get along.
Those crazy hippies may know a lot about surgery and medicine and building great water systems from being in the Peace Corp, but may need the NRA members to protect that 1/4 mile of water piping they keep in their garage etc...

Gotta to learn to get along and learning on line is a great starter course.

I hope we can keep some of the diversity here because the homogeneity won't be an option in the real world.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

That's because, chickenista, though you and I have different political beliefs ... I trust you. You are not a threat to me or my family. You would be an asset.

Many of these others have already proven themselves to be a threat. 

I can get along with just about anyone and any particular ideology. But when they start justifying their claim on my property and labor, they reveal themselves to be a thief and they cannot be trusted.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

Would someone point me to a thread where all of this became an issue?
I can't find and it sounds like it would make very interesting reading indeed.

I feel as if I am missing a huge chunk of, if not all of, a point.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

zong said:


> Please remove this subforum from my ability to view it, same as you did with politics and GC, and once again, at my request.


Heres an idea, just don't enter it.


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## Rocktown Gal (Feb 19, 2008)

chickenista said:


> Would someone point me to a thread where all of this became an issue?
> I can't find and it sounds like it would make very interesting reading indeed.
> 
> I feel as if I am missing a huge chunk of, if not all of, a point.


I believe it was this one  

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sp...ent-events/511770-insurance-quotes-crazy.html


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

'Nista, the problem I see is that people who offer a differing opinion are denigrated and accused of poking fun even if they simply and politely raise a viewpoint that differs. 

There are more conservative members who have no problem poking fun at, or downright denigrating the more liberal minded, but they seem to have free passes to do so.

I can't think of a liberal minded person here who wouldn't give the shirt off their backs to help someone in need, but they are demonized constantly.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Win07_351 said:


> But can liberalism breed freedom?


By the true definition of liberalism: Maybe.
By what passes for liberalism in the Democratic party today: No way.

But then I also don't think today's Republican Party fits the definition of true conservative either.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

mnn2501 said:


> Heres an idea, just don't enter it.


Wow! LOL! I never thought of that! Seriously,it is as simply as skipping it. I do that all the time. Nothing, and I mean nothing is THAT important! Life is too sort to get one's knickers in a twist over the written word of a anonynous person. And, if that person is annoying, put them on Ignore!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

So I can get this straight. Correct me if I am wrong.

Having a different viewpoint or opinion on a situation in this forum is bashing if you are what others call liberal and is not allowed. However if you are conservative, you can bash away and even threaten to kill those that have a different view.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

mnn2501 said:


> By the true definition of liberalism: Maybe.
> By what passes for liberalism in the Democratic party today: No way.
> 
> But then I also don't think today's Republican Party fits the definition of true conservative either.


I'm of the same mindset. I used to draw lines where this political mindset was ok and this one wasn't, but ultimately that revealed itself to me to be sort of arbitrary and false.

In my head, it's now simply "free men and everybody else".


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

LOL....
The RNC called the house the other night....my husband answered...and was quick to point out to the guy asking for a donation that " I will not give my money to a party that is more like yesterday's democrats, and be sure to know that I abhor the socialist (bleep) that is POTUS".....poor guy, but sometimes the truth hurts.

I dont want to give a fish....I want to teach to fish.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

mpillow said:


> I dont want to give a fish....I want to teach to fish.


How do you feel about the guy who shows up at the end of the day and lays claim to half your fish?


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

Rocktown Gal said:


> I believe it was this one
> 
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sp...ent-events/511770-insurance-quotes-crazy.html


Oh good grief.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Ask me if you can use something of mine, allow me to say "yes" or "no",and return it in good condition, and you are a good neighbor that I'm happy to help.

If you are in need of heat for the winter and want to use some trees that I select for firewood and you cut with no liability to me, and I'm happy to help.

TELL me you are going to need my tools, and you'll get my hackles up.

Get my tools by force and you are a thief and will be seen and treated as one.


However... I don't have a competitive drive to amass huge amounts of money to the detriment of others. I've walked away from sketchy situations that could have made me lots of money. Many of the ultra-rich have no such compulsions and have wealth that is ALREADY stolen. They also have influence and power.

Example: Alexander G. Bell did NOT "invent" the telephone, but saw a patent application by an Italian inventor and stole the idea. Example: Bill Gates did not "invent" DOS, but bought what was a variation of a FREE and open operating system, made minor changes and slapped a proprietary label on it. (He DID code a spectacularly good version of the BASIC language) Goodyear, the inventor, was never part of or paid by the tire company that bears his name and died poor. Edison was a patent troll. American history is not just peppered with important thieves and psychopaths, it if rife with them and their glories and exploits. Even more so, any person who has fought for reasonable treatment of employees has alternately been called Communist, Socialist, "Liberal" in the pejorative sense, and worse - by fellow employees. The average sheep will defend their butchers until the point they are led down that last hall and have a last stunning moment of understanding.

In my mind, if you identify with either Democrat or Republican without reservation you aren't thinking or you are part of the problem.

There are partial solutions. Force corporations (ersatz "people") to die ten years earlier than the lifespan of the average citizen. That alone would do more to encourage decent healthcare than Ocare or any ten plans like it. Force corporations to give employees stock to be no less than 30% of stock outstanding AND a seat on the board. Make majority stockholders legally responsible for laws broken by a corporation - including being subject to jail time. Bring back tariffs to level the playing field with imported goods.

There is a snowball's chance of any of that happening, so eventually the cycle of our version of civilization will play out. Fortunately, I know how to make good popcorn to eat as I watch.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Frankly, all you socialists can do all the swan songs you want and I won't be sad to see the back of you.
> 
> If you think it's right and proper to use the government to steal from an individual, how can we even feel comfortable with you here discussing what we have in our pantry? You'll be the first ones to sell us out when food becomes scarce and the government offers a bounty on "hoarders".
> 
> ...


That is a nice selection of strawmen you have set up here.

So let's take a look at those fallacies shall we? First why would I feel any need to take anything from you? I have everything I need and more in abundance. I picked the perfect spot to settle, I have worked long years to make this place functional and prepared for anything I can reasonably come up with. I have gardens, I have livestock, I have a home I can go completely off-grid with, I have wells, I have everything literally that I need. This is my fallback place, my bolthole where I can live on practically nothing and that is the most important thing in the world for me. I have no need for what anyone else has. 

I think it is right and proper to pay taxes. As I have posted before the bible supports my opinion. Taxes are not theft. To equate my agreement with reasonable taxes to theft makes no sense. 

Last I don't have a lot of time to sit on the internet and post away all day. When I come here I try to find a few threads and throw out some advice where I can. If you read through my posts that is exactly what you will see. I don't understand how some people homestead fulltime or work jobs and farm and yet can sit here all day making 30 or 40 posts a day. Right now I am swamped with planting and tilling and milking and trying to get all the excess eggs and milk turned into something storable. If someone asks about those things I will try to throw in my 2 cents.

I find everyone's posts interesting even when I disagree with them. I also feel no fear of opposing views because I am comfortable with my own and others opinions do not worry me. I don't need to be surrounded by only people who agree with me to feel like I made the right decisions.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Well, patchouli, you might just reckon (if you were a smart individual) that since none of that message applies to you ... that it WASN'T REFERRING TO YOU.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Harry Chickpea said:


> Ask me if you can use something of mine, allow me to say "yes" or "no",and return it in good condition, and you are a good neighbor that I'm happy to help.
> 
> If you are in need of heat for the winter and want to use some trees that I select for firewood and you cut with no liability to me, and I'm happy to help.
> 
> ...


 Exactly!


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Well, patchouli, you might just reckon (if you were a smart individual) that since none of that message applies to you ... that it WASN'T REFERRING TO YOU.


Good to know you and I are all good then.


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## Scott SW Ohio (Sep 20, 2003)

I respect the will of the moderator in defining this forum. Based on previous statements of the same general policy contained in the OP I refrain from posting here. I hope you all don't mind that I continue to lurk and read - even a liberal can learn a thing or two from you all.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Ernie said:


> Frankly, all you socialists can do all the swan songs you want and I won't be sad to see the back of you.
> 
> If you think it's right and proper to use the government to steal from an individual, how can we even feel comfortable with you here discussing what we have in our pantry? You'll be the first ones to sell us out when food becomes scarce and the government offers a bounty on "hoarders".


FYI.

This is an open forum that anyone can read signed in or not. What you have or don't have in your pantry is already full knowledge to anyone who reads even once a week. I know from what I have read that your pantry would not be worth the trek. I also could think of far better places to hunker down even taking your pantry out of the situation.

You and your internet footprint is an open book. You could not hide it now if you tried.


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

I my opinion, its not how much you have in your pantry, its whether you stocked that pantry by the fruits of your labor and not with a handout from someone.

if you had nothing to eat and someone 10 miles away had only beans and some rice, I'm sure you would make that trek.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

lindamarie said:


> I my opinion, its not how much you have in your pantry, its whether you stocked that pantry by the fruits of your labor and not with a handout from someone.
> 
> if you had nothing to eat and someone 10 miles away had only beans and some rice, I'm sure you would make that trek.


I have been reading this forum for many years. I can't think of very few that I can bring to mind that has posted that is not stocking their pantry by working their butts off. Even those that don't have a stocked pantry are working towards a homestead that will enable them to provide for themselves or their homestead is in a location where the game is abundant.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

lindamarie said:


> I my opinion, its not how much you have in your pantry, its whether you stocked that pantry by the fruits of your labor and not with a handout from someone.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I disagree.
> ...


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

yes, we work our butts off to stick the pantry. Guess what really irked me was the fact that an implication was made that Ernie had so little that a person wouldn't bother with a trek.

a hungry person will go as far as possible for something to eat.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

lindamarie said:


> yes, we work our butts off to stick the pantry. Guess what really irked me was the fact that an implication was made that Ernie had so little that a person wouldn't bother with a trek.
> 
> a hungry person will go as far as possible for something to eat.


A smart person would go where the trek was worth it. Being hungry does not make you stupid. Ernie has been very upfront that he has no garden right now and no real food storage. He is working towards be self sufficient but I don't think he would say he is there yet.

Ps, I would be eating the trees and roots before I walked 10 miles for some beans and rice.


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

seems to me, no matter how hard someone tries to do something, how they live, what they have in their pantry...someone somewhere will find something to belittle them about.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

lindamarie said:


> yes, we work our butts off to stick the pantry. Guess what really irked me was the fact that an implication was made that Ernie had so little that a person wouldn't bother with a trek.


It's not incorrect. 

We don't stockpile much for various reasons. We used to set some aside "for a rainy day" but it's been raining for a long time and it don't show much signs of letting up. I ain't complaining ... we are given enough to get by on and it's largely by choice that we're here at all. Last summer we were much worse off, and then in the fall it all improved. Now it's in another downturn and it probably will be for a little while. But bean sprouts are poking up through the soil now so I'm encouraged.

But I think that person sort of revealed their character when they pointed out that they wouldn't bother here coming to steal because there's nothing worth stealing. It's implied, in that sentence, that they might if there WAS something to steal. 

We have always had so much in our lives that we never really leaned on God. It was always me and MY work, or my employer and I look back now and see that I was very haughty about that. Now that we have so little, we must lean on God _every single day_. And that's a big change in the mindset around here. 

Who are we taught to lean on today? Our employer? Our government? Our selves in our hunting and gardening skills? All of those _can fail_. I am being taught now to rely upon one who is constant and whose love for us cannot fail.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

lindamarie said:


> seems to me, no matter how hard someone tries to do something, how they live, what they have in their pantry...someone somewhere will find something to belittle them about.


Yes, I agree, belittling people because they have a different opinion seems to be at the top of the list.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Ernie said:


> It's not incorrect.
> 
> We don't stockpile much for various reasons. We used to set some aside "for a rainy day" but it's been raining for a long time and it don't show much signs of letting up. I ain't complaining ... we are given enough to get by on and it's largely by choice that we're here at all. Last summer we were much worse off, and then in the fall it all improved. Now it's in another downturn and it probably will be for a little while. But bean sprouts are poking up through the soil now so I'm encouraged.
> 
> ...


Ernie, you implied that people here were reading so that they could find who to steal supplies from. I just pointed out that if anyone would want to steal it would not be from you. I don't have that opinion of people.


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

but he obviously has more than the hungry person who has trek for food. And from his posts....im pretty sure he would be able to add some meat along with those roots.

sorry, I dragged you into this Ernie, I should have just sat back and smiled and waved.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

lindamarie said:


> but he obviously has more than the hungry person who has trek for food. And from his posts....im pretty sure he would be able to add some meat along with those roots.
> 
> sorry, I dragged you into this Ernie, I should have just sat back and smiled and waved.


I respect that you believe it and want to have his back. I just don't agree. I have been reading Ernie's posts, blogs and Facebook page for years. I have a different opinion.

PS Ernie believes that his money should go to things other than food in his pantry. These are his own words.

"I've never before seen Maslow's heirarchy of needs employed in purchasing decisions. 

Katie, we can't TELL you what to buy with your $300. I have no idea what's in your pantry, what the makeup of your household is, what your physical health level is, where you live, or what you know how to do. Those are all factors that weight the discussion heavily. 

For example, buying food is low on the list of priorities for me because I can meet my family need of 12,000 calories per day easily between my farm and the wilderness around me. Buying medicines is low because we're all in good health and ought to stay that way as a byproduct of gathering up those 12,000 calories. Buying expensive survival-related gadgetry is non-existent because I don't believe in such things. An uncommitted $300 in my pocket would quickly go to paying off any existing debt or buying a couple of books on something I don't know how to do."


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

painterswife said:


> I respect that you believe it and want to have his back. I just don't agree. I have been reading Ernie's posts, blogs and Facebook page for years. I have a different opinion.


The rest of what I snipped out of your comment is good and I'm impressed that I said it.  Clearly whatever version of Ernie who said that was a brilliant fellow.

But here's what I want to ask ...

You clearly despise me. You don't like anything I stand for or what I have to say.

So why have you been reading my posts, blog posts, and following me on Facebook for years?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Ernie said:


> The rest of what I snipped out of your comment is good and I'm impressed that I said it.  Clearly whatever version of Ernie who said that was a brilliant fellow.
> 
> But here's what I want to ask ...
> 
> ...


I don't despise you at all. I just don't agree with some of your ideas. I do however learn even from people who I disagree with. I do believe that I have the right to post an opposing opinion if it is what I believe.

PS, I like reading about your pond and its transformation. That is one thing I like.


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

I think I'm going to go and do something a little more constructive than continue beating my head against a brick wall at the moment. I will say this though....

being a former Democratic bleeding heart liberal I'm all too familiar with how they are able to take any argument, debate and/or discussion and turn it into nothing better than a bunch of toddlers out of control having a temper tantrum because the other kids won't do things their way.

I'll stop by later and see if recess is over.

Ernie, once again...sorry I dragged you into this.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

I come to this forum for how-to information, survival/safety oriented news, encouragement and a sense of not being alone in my philosophy and lifestyle. I try to share when I have something to say that would add to a discussion.

I get frustrated with negative stereotyping and name calling. Kindergarten behavior that is just not necessary and does not benefit any of us. Spare me the rhetoric and stick to the facts. I like hearing well reasoned discussions, even if I don't agree with them at all but I despise when ridiculous, inflammatory statements are made by people who have not stopped to verify whether what they are touting is true or to consider whether their arguments are valid as stated.

It upsets me when new members or visitors are told that they are too late, that doom is already upon us all. IMO, every newbie we encourage could be one or more fewer zombies we have to worry about later. Because although costs are going up and bad things are happening, a concerned person can STILL get started. To tell them they can't is an outright lie. They can buy up some food, learn about self defense, learn about long term sustainability. Every single step they take is one better than where they were before. 

I guess I may be considered to be one of the ones who don't fit in here. I have been called many things and told that I am blind to the fact that my demise is imminent. I have disagreed with some of the more venerable members when they have made statements I consider inaccurate or uncalled for. 

All that aside, it is obvious that some people come here because they love to fight and argue, often times caring more for that than the topic at hand. I have no problem with seeing them banished. I would prefer to see this be a realistic place rather than a conservative or liberal one. Spew all the politics in some other forum that welcomes that kind of exchange. Come here to talk about survival and emergency preparedness. If a law threatens that, discuss the law and ways to cope with it instead of wasting time blathering about the politics behind it.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

painterswife said:


> I don't despise you at all. I just don't agree with some of your ideas. I do however learn even from people who I disagree with. I do believe that I have the right to post an opposing opinion if it is what I believe.
> 
> PS, I like reading about your pond and its transformation. That is one thing I like.


Oh, I get it. If I talk about harmless things like flowers and the environment, it's all good, but if I talk about my basic core beliefs than it's a problem?

I have noticed that anytime I post anything religious on my Facebook page, the number of people who "like" my page instantly drops by about 3. 

People don't understand that this stuff is deadly serious. Laugh and joke about not paying your taxes and say pithy things like "we agree to disagree", but at the end of the day, if I disagree with YOU on the government's right to my property and labor, it is the people YOU support who will send their thugs to kill me. 

All the outrage because I said that sooner or later Americans will have to kill the thieves and run them out of the country, when the truth is that it's what has been happening to the non-thieves for quite a long number of years.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Ernie said:


> Oh, I get it. If I talk about harmless things like flowers and the environment, it's all good, but if I talk about my basic core beliefs than it's a problem?
> 
> I have noticed that anytime I post anything religious on my Facebook page, the number of people who "like" my page instantly drops by about 3.
> 
> ...


Ernie, you can talk about anything you want, just respect that if you can, I should be able to as well.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I really am flabbergasted by the uproar here.

I have ONE political belief. JUST ONE.

That belief is: _leave me and my family alone.

_What does it say about our society that holding THAT belief brings you in so much conflict with your fellow man?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

AngieM2 said:


> Okay, this started out as Freedom and Self Reliance and it was so rough most of the current members would have been afraid to enter as what we have now at the strongest is so watered down they'd not recognize it.
> 
> But, it seems some want to come to make fun, and challenge why we do some thing and such. That is just baiting and trolling to cause problems in this forum.
> 
> ...


I still mean this, regardless of the discussion after this first post.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

I'm guessing much of the "argumentative" posts come from the Current Events sub forum? When you hit "New Posts", all someone can see for the forum is "Current Events", which many people may not realize it's actually part of the S&EP forum. Maybe a new title for Current Events (like Current Events-S&EP) might clear up some confusion. That got me when I was new here, and I got some very nasty responses when I offered a differing opinion. That is exactly why I rarely post here...rude attitudes toward those who think differently.




Tiempo said:


> 'Nista, the problem I see is that people who offer a differing opinion are denigrated and accused of poking fun even if they simply and politely raise a viewpoint that differs.
> 
> There are more conservative members who have no problem poking fun at, or downright denigrating the more liberal minded, but they seem to have free passes to do so.
> 
> I can't think of a liberal minded person here who wouldn't give the shirt off their backs to help someone in need, but they are demonized constantly.


Exactly!


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

Hmm, I haven't been on here regularly for a year or so...good to see Ernie is still getting people's attention 

oh and Hi


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Ernie said:


> Oh, I get it. If I talk about harmless things like flowers and the environment, it's all good, but if I talk about my basic core beliefs than it's a problem?
> 
> I have noticed that anytime I post anything religious on my Facebook page, the number of people who "like" my page instantly drops by about 3.
> 
> ...


I'm confused also. If you kill them first, how do you then run them out.:shrug:


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Sorry folks but I'm suffering PTSD.....this sounds like Thanksgiving Dinner at my mothers house....now I *know* why she prays silently for the triptophan to kick in.

Knowledge is what I want, and I try to share my crazy ways too... But I've also been insulted here...."typical low socio-economic view towards muslims" when my boy got into it with an exchange student from Jordan...that called him an ignorant sheep farmer...
I'm still here and of an even lower economic view these days....my view hasnt changed.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Ernie said:


> I really am flabbergasted by the uproar here.
> 
> I have ONE political belief. JUST ONE.
> 
> ...


I agree with you BUT you don't leave it at that. You push your beliefs just as much as the left do. So both you and them have to stand and yell about it. Going after someone with wild accusations and disrespect gets no one anywhere. Just turns the other person into you. Such IS why this country is in the predicament it is in. Use to be all people could come together, put in their 2 cents worth and leave still respecting the other. What/where did civility go. 


....James


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

Harry Chickpea said:


> Ask me if you can use something of mine, allow me to say "yes" or "no",and return it in good condition, and you are a good neighbor that I'm happy to help.
> 
> If you are in need of heat for the winter and want to use some trees that I select for firewood and you cut with no liability to me, and I'm happy to help.
> 
> ...


Tax my tools each year for the greater good and you will be hailed a hero by many.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

mpillow said:


> I'm still here and of an even lower economic view these days....my view hasnt changed.


God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith. (James 2:5)


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

whiskeylivewire said:


> Hmm, I haven't been on here regularly for a year or so...good to see Ernie is still getting people's attention
> 
> oh and Hi


Welcome back. :goodjob:


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

mpillow said:


> Sorry folks but I'm suffering PTSD.....this sounds like Thanksgiving Dinner at my mothers house....now I *know* why she prays silently for the triptophan to kick in.
> 
> Knowledge is what I want, and I try to share my crazy ways too... But I've also been insulted here...."typical low socio-economic view towards muslims" when my boy got into it with an exchange student from Jordan...that called him an ignorant sheep farmer...
> I'm still here and of an even lower economic view these days....my view hasnt changed.


maybe we need a forum for the lower economic, out spoken members. In which case, id be a member.


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

hmmmm.

I'm late again, trying to read all of these posts. I'm just gonna throw this out there and see what you think:

When's the last time you were part of a group that developed your own forms of self-governance? Your rules for working with others and playing by the same set of rules - no matter who you were dealing with in the group?

I wonder if this might be what we're trying to figure out. Not that someone will TELL US what the rules are... and say that the price of membership is adhering to the rules... we're trying to decide what rules are comfortable for ALL of us. Regardless of "interpretation". (We already agreed to abide by the board's rules.)

Because it just isn't going to work, for us to split up into tiny tribes with "different" rules in isolated echo-chamber forums -- even if 90% of the rules _between_ groups are the same. I think we all feel this - but putting it into the right words is kinda hard. I think the reason we find ourselves here - doing this -

is because we're already experiencing in real life, that there are at least two sets of "rules" (laws) and that the laws only apply to some people - and some people are above the law. This is frightening; terribly so. And so, here we find ourselves, trying to work out the difficulties on a micro-scale that we wish would happen on the national scale.

I don't know if I believe this is what is going on, btw. But it's an idea I'm pondering and looking at.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

I've been a member here for 6 years, and I've learned so much from everyone. I have hardly ever made a political statement or even had a harsh word with anyone. To me, this forum is valuable as a way to connect with people like me who want to learn how to be more self sufficient. I don't care what race (one lady quit because she said people were unfriendly to her because she is black), religion (I'm secure in my beliefs and leave you to follow yours), economic level (we've been both poor and well off), or education level (I'm only a high school graduate) you are. If you can tell me the best way to grow, harvest and store food, how to build things or fix things, I'm your friend!

Why is it that people today are so polarized and angry? I see it on Facebook, on message boards, and in real life. I just wish everyone on this forum would think of it as a family of fellow preppers and get along. Nothing anyone says here is going to change another person's philosophy one bit, and it distracts from the important subjects like building can rotators and storing water safely.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

It is everywhere!
It is the scariest thing about all of this to me.

It's anger and actual rage.
Fuses are short and people are starting to act stupid and do things like shooting people for absolutely no reason.
Or for something that they see as a good reason in their semi-delusional, hate filled state of mind.
And folks are going off on forums and facebook etc..when it really is an over the top reaction.


It is this kind of thing that has gone so badly before in the history of the world.
So.. we hunker down a bit more, teach caution a bit more and pay even more attention to our surroundings when out.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

chickenista said:


> It is everywhere!
> It is the scariest thing about all of this to me.
> 
> It's anger and actual rage.
> ...


I have been seeing the same thing, not just on the internet but in the real world. Situational awareness is high on my list right now.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

lindamarie said:


> maybe we need a forum for the lower economic, out spoken members. In which case, id be a member.


:goodjob:


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

chickenista said:


> Fuses are short and people are starting to act stupid and do things like shooting people for absolutely no reason.


Who is?

I can't name one case that wasn't some medicated kid going off the deep end and shooting up a school or a movie theatre. 

I can name a LOT of cases where the cops shot some unarmed citizen or homeless person. 

So again ... who is shooting whom?

Violence is only allowed to flow in ONE DIRECTION, and that is down the hierarchy. From government TO its citizens. Even the slightest mention of violence flowing upwards and everybody loses their ever-loving minds.

Incidentally, THAT is how you recognize that you are living in a police state.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Ardie/WI said:


> Wow! LOL! I never thought of that! Seriously,it is as simply as skipping it. I do that all the time. Nothing, and I mean nothing is THAT important! Life is too sort to get one's knickers in a twist over the written word of a anonynous person. And, if that person is annoying, put them on Ignore!


Ardie - I have always liked your posts. They make a ridiculous amount of sense.

there are areas of this board (HT) that I have NEVER posted in. I might read, but I don't post and I don't care too. It is sort of like having a channel changer..if you don't like what's on your channel, just change it by moving to another forum.


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Ernie said:


> Who is?
> 
> I can't name one case that wasn't some medicated kid going off the deep end and shooting up a school or a movie theatre.
> 
> ...



Google road rage shootings and you'll see a whole lot of violence perpetrated by citizens.

I do agree with Chickenista--there's a whole lot of angry people out there in real life. Deal with them everyday working in retail.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

The idiot in the movie theater that shot that guy over texting (after having just texted himself)
The guy that blew away his neighbor who had Alzheimer's.
The idiot that shot the 2 older gentlemen who were brothers that were looking at the shed on their own property.
The idiot that opened fire on a car that was on his street and killed th kid because some other people had been picking on his daughter.
The crazed guy that chased a fellow motorist over the state lines and blew him away while he was on the phone to 911.
The guy who shot into a car full of teens because he didn't like their music..

oh.. I could go on and on and on....

Oh and about 10 shootings from folks getting fired or breaking up with a loved one.


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

the two brothers that were killed were friends of my DD mother in law. They went to the same church.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

chickenista said:


> The idiot in the movie theater that shot that guy over texting (after having just texted himself)
> The guy that blew away his neighbor who had Alzheimer's.
> The idiot that shot the 2 older gentlemen who were brothers that were looking at the shed on their own property.
> The idiot that opened fire on a car that was on his street and killed th kid because some other people had been picking on his daughter.
> ...


I guess I thought you were talking about POLITICAL shootings.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Ernie said:


> I guess I thought you were talking about POLITICAL shootings.


You reminded me of Perchik in Fiddler on the Roof there for a second. Everything is political!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Patchouli said:


> You reminded me of Perchik in Fiddler on the Roof there for a second. Everything is political!


If I'm not careful, I do get drawn into the political and EVERYTHING becomes political. Which is sad because I've separated myself from the world in everything EXCEPT parts of my mind, it seems. The world is living rent free in my head and taking up space and processing power that could be better spent. For all the happiness and joy I have gathered today, I would have been better served to have gone and sat under an oak tree and slept for the past 10 hours.

There is a gathering storm. Seek the Lord. That is all that matters. _All else is dust._


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## raybait1 (Sep 30, 2006)

> Everything is political


And follows self interest...


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Ernie said:


> If I'm not careful, I do get drawn into the political and EVERYTHING becomes political. Which is sad because I've separated myself from the world in everything EXCEPT parts of my mind, it seems. The world is living rent free in my head and taking up space and processing power that could be better spent. *For all the happiness and joy I have gathered today, I would have been better served to have gone and sat under an oak tree and slept for the past 10 hours.
> *
> There is a gathering storm. Seek the Lord. That is all that matters. _All else is dust._


You and me both!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Weird dup


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Ernie said:


> If I'm not careful, I do get drawn into the political and EVERYTHING becomes political. Which is sad because I've separated myself from the world in everything EXCEPT parts of my mind, it seems. The world is living rent free in my head and taking up space and processing power that could be better spent. For all the happiness and joy I have gathered today, I would have been better served to have gone and sat under an oak tree and slept for the past 10 hours.
> 
> There is a gathering storm. Seek the Lord. That is all that matters. _All else is dust._





Patchouli said:


> You and me both!


Not even mentioning what it's done to me.


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## DryHeat (Nov 11, 2010)

I'll add another example and (part of) its outcome from my paper this morning. A year or so ago, not far from where I live, a driver, apparently in a moment of inattention, cut another driver off with a sudden lane change. The cars didn't collide but it was evidently close and stressful. The guy cut off accelerated and pulled up beside the driver at fault and started yelling at him out his window with them both stopped. The one being yelled at pulled his handgun and opened up on the other driver (who had a gf with him in the car), killing him. Then he drove away onto side streets, never called 911, and removed a mirror on the car that had a couple of bullet holes in it. He was put on trial for murder, ag assault, drive-by shooting. A jury just acquitted him of ALL CHARGES. I suppose relatives of the guy killed could now sue the shooter, but still.


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

AngieM2 said:


> Not even mentioning what it's done to me.


its all because of the time change, studies have shown it makes people nuts. Plus the price of coffee is going up and for a lot of us spring hasn't even thought about showing up.

look, its after midnight. Another day, we can all get up on the right side of the bed and start again. Basically we're all good people. 

have a good night Angie.


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## raybait1 (Sep 30, 2006)

> Basically we're all good people.


I think thats a common misconception. We are not good people. We are not bad people. We are people carrying out our own self interest. Some of us are good at growing crops. Some of us are good a raiding those crops. Everything follows self interest.


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

well I'm good at growing crops and if someone tries to raid my crops I would hope to be good at protecting them.

I don't wear rose colored glasses, and believe me I know first hand what people are capable of. Self righteousness and self interest are capable of destruction.

hope that made sense, its late and coffee wearing off.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> I would put myself up against anyone here for self reliance, preparedness and the ability to survive. I own my own farm outright, I am debt free, I can live 100% off my land and have done so. I need less than $500 a year to cover my taxes and beyond that I can feed myself and care for myself strictly with what I raise and sell here. I am stocked for most emergencies and I could survive here if the world fell apart.


I would agree with you that, presented your facts, you are well beyond most of us. Kudos to you. I dare to say I will never achieve what you have. My property taxes are 6 times that alone. And to beat _someone_ to the punch, I am super happy with where I am. In this game of life, I'm not so set on being first but rather dead set against being last.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Ever wonder what its like when a country or civilization really starts to come apart


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## Calico Katie (Sep 12, 2003)

I just read this whole thread and I'm plum wore out. It seems like everybody's talking but nobody's listening. I think I'll go back to bed now.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Calico Kate - I know some are not listening to me., and going back to bed sounds good. Rain on a tin roof, excellent.


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## K.B. (Sep 7, 2012)

These kinds of threads are certainly good at showing the character of some of the people posting.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

The problem is that it is getting harder and harder to be self reliant in this over taxed, government mandated climate. All I hear about on the TV suddenly are these concepts of "shared responsibility' and 'mutual obligations'. This was rightly recognized as hard core marxist rhetoric not too long ago.

I'd like to see somebody post a thread about some other countries and how they might be worth consideration from those of us who want a shot at being self reliant. The way things are going, if something doesn't change radically here soon I don't see self reliance being possible in America. The second you have one penny more than you need to stay alive they say your not paying your fair share


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Twobottom said:


> The problem is that it is getting harder and harder to be self reliant in this over taxed, government mandated climate. All I hear about on the TV suddenly are these concepts of "shared responsibility' and 'mutual obligations'. This was rightly recognized as hard core marxist rhetoric not too long ago.
> 
> I'd like to see somebody post a thread about some other countries and how they might be worth consideration from those of us who want a shot at being self reliant. The way things are going, if something doesn't change radically here soon I don't see self reliance being possible in America. The second you have one penny more than you need to stay alive they say your not paying your fair share


Absolutely correct....and this is why some are angry and frustrated. For example....the town wants me to get a demo permit for a chicken coop...:hammer: but if the snow collapses it...no prob.:facepalm:


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

I'm still new here, but what I see is a lot of passion about beliefs. Passion is good, just don't let it turn into rage and hate. 

I've noticed that the same people will usually post on certain threads/forums, and things go along pretty good. Then someone pops in, who I don't usually see there and stirs things up. Yes, sometimes its good to give it a stir. But, we don't need a full rolling boil. 

I've learned a lot in the short time I've been here. At times I get overly passionate, but I try pretty quick to pull it in. I'm not perfect. I've always apologized if what I said was out of line. 

this forum reminds me of my kids, they were always trying to one up the other, place blame on a sibling, or have the last word. I raised 5. They were all good kids, but boy there was times that I just wanted to stay in the barn and let them go at it.

passion about your beliefs, whether they be homesteading, survival, environmental, cooking, raising kids, politics or religion are great. We should not let them turn to rage or destruction. 

and yes, like I said, I know I'm still new.....linda


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## Mutti (Sep 7, 2002)

Don't see how you can separate the self reliant lifestyle from what is happening in the world. It would be nice to retreat to the countryside and everyone would leave you alone but we all know that isn't gonna happen anymore. I generally only write about stocking up, chickens and cows, gardening but my lifestyle is tied to many other sectors. How can I ignore world politics when my son and DIL are in the military and could easily be sent off to fight to satisfy the stupid people up in Washington lust for power,money,oil? When drought hits parts of the country it affects us all. Can't see how I can afford to raise a beef this year with the soaring cattle prices. Watching Free speech TV or Al Jazera could make a person want to retreat under the bed. I don't go to many of the forums. The folks here seem to speak to my mindset... and I like a bit of bickering


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

mpillow said:


> Absolutely correct....and this is why some are angry and frustrated. For example....the town wants me to get a demo permit for a chicken coop...:hammer: but if the snow collapses it...no prob.:facepalm:


 That sounds like the time I wanted to burn an old abandoned house at the farm. I called the county and told them what I wanted to do.

Nope cant do that or We will be out there to fine you $10,000. They said I could push it into a pile with a dozer and no problems. I dont own a dozer.

Two months later a storm came up a lightening hit the house. It burned to the ground in about 45 min.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

*Freedom by relying on yourself, being prepared to survive without the need of agencies, etc.



*That is what has been added under the title of Survival & Emergency Prep on the forum index.

We know some have to use some of the agencies for now, but do not promote the use of them if one can get by without them.

The advocates of nanny state may not fit here, the ones that have to use some of it, and want to be freer, and the ones getting more free belong here.

Some have not believed me, but this forum has a purpose.
To help those that want to not use Agencies, or kill others to take what bits and pieces we have put up for ourselves, family and chosen others.

Yes we talk of killing those that chose to be thieves. We over the past several years have talked of the hordes of zombies being other than what it is now. It appears that there is a good chance the hordes of zombies may be part of the what was US, but is becoming them and us.

This has never ever been meant to be a forum for everyone, but it has always been meant to be a place where real or wild conspiracies can be discussed with out the stalkers coming to tear down and ridicule.

There are so many other places to face the ridicule, but I am trying to make sure this is not one of those places.

We will share our knowledge, and help those that want to help themselves, as much as they can with what they have to work with.

Some that may only be a few pots of dirt and tomato plants on a patio, with bandages and lots of rice and beans and seasonings; for others it's back to the hoe and 3 acres and building a minimum home with kids running around barefooted in the dirt. Or anything in between.

But the nay Sayers to this are flat not welcome. As I have said in the Current events "What is Current Events", enough of the nay saying and this forum will not be on your index any longer.

And for those yelling "Free Speech" no one is keeping you from saying anything, but on HT in general there is censorship and always has been; and this forum is for a specific reason and group. 

There it is.

I hope we help more and don't run off the group of members this forum is for, due to worrying about being lambasted by the stalkers.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

TNHermit said:


> Ever wonder what its like when a country or civilization really starts to come apart


I think it's happening TN. There is so much Lawlessness in our government and it is trickeling down. People want more and more of what belongs to others and the government is saying it's OK to expect it. It's deliberate.


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## sdnapier (Aug 13, 2010)

zong said:


> Please remove this subforum from my ability to view it, same as you did with politics and GC, and once again, at my request. I really don't care to participate in a subforum in which the official line is that those with differing opinions are somehow second class citizens. Whole lot of people I disagree with. Yet, in clear consciousness, I cannot participate in a subforum that proclaims freedom, but yet condones


 Condones...I think you meant to say condemns??


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

TNHermit said:


> Ever wonder what its like when a country or civilization really starts to come apart


I hear ya, Hermit. Seeing the same thing out in the "wide world". My little corner of it - while it's still kinda out of the way and small and peaceful (most of the time) - has been having more issues, too.

Pay attention to what happens in Ukraine; it's a lesson in what the IMF expects from a country that it "helps". If the US ever asks for that kind of help - it really will time to :runforhills:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/regime-change-in-ukraine-and-the-imfs-bitter-economic-medicine/5374877

ETA: most of this anger/unrest/uncivility is the slow realization that despite the media spin: prices are going up for everything, but wages aren't... and the economic uncertainty is being made worse by the big bureaucracy and horrible (self-interested) policies of this administration/congress.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

AngieM2 said:


> *Freedom by relying on yourself, being prepared to survive without the need of agencies, etc.*
> 
> Well I guess I don't fit here anymore since the rules have changed. Sounds like it is....getting back for when the lefties called righties "terrorists". Only, now, lets call them "stalkers". Paranoid, scared, lambasted or....WE can.
> 
> ...


Sounds like it is....getting back for when the lefties called righties "terrorists". Only, now, lets call them "stalkers". Paranoid, scared, lambasted or....WE can. 

Glass houses and all that.


I am really disappointed it has come to this.

I would like to be deleted from this forum also....James


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## alabamared (May 23, 2005)

I haven't visited here in a while. Is this politics forum or survival forum?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Survival.


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## alabamared (May 23, 2005)

Well there sure is a bunch of democrat/republican, liberal/conservative, right/left stuff being spouted. And I only read part of the first page. Which party do I need to be a member of to survive the next natural disaster?


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Perhaps we should focus on S&EP, and leave the political side trackings to other forums.

Therefore, I've just started three flats of seeds for the garden. Even tho there is still frost in the ground and snow in place of the grass. Three more tomorrow.

Matt


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Lucky you Matt. . . .
I can't wade through the three feet of snow to get to my potting soil . . . . .
dang nation........


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I had a HT member visit me Thursday night and showed her the floating water candles. The wicks that float on the oil on water. I had a new package I sent with her. That's equivalent to 100 candles in a small package.

They are wonderful. During the tornadoes and 6 days of no power, a bowl with water and cooking oil and a floating candle, set in a sink made a great night light or how to just be able to move around. Saves on batteries.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Roadking said:


> Perhaps we should focus on S&EP, and leave the political side trackings to other forums.
> 
> Therefore, I've just started three flats of seeds for the garden. Even tho there is still frost in the ground and snow in place of the grass. Three more tomorrow.
> 
> Matt


That's gardening. We have a forum for that.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

I dont see how one can ignore politics in a survival forum..now I dont think debating of politics helps..but one must remain aware of politics..political happenings and events as a form of preparing. What " side" each proports to be on is less important than the entire political, national and international events matters very much to emergency prepardness and survival.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Well, yeah, gardening and preparedness...our mud room is full southern exposure and that's where our seed flat racks are. Our yard and garden are, however, still buried in snow and ice.

Little green sprouts make it feel like spring here.

Matt


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Aintlifegrand said:


> I dont see how one can ignore politics in a survival forum..now I dont think debating of politics helps..but one must remain aware of politics..political happenings and events as a form of preparing. What " side" each proports to be on is less important than the entire political, national and international events matters very much to emergency prepardness and survival.


Yes, be aware of the politics, and then go to that forum to discuss that part of the topic.
How to deal with the costs and such is for here. 
If you want my opinion on the bill, see my posts in the other forums...they are not in this forum. If I can do it, anyone else can as well...you all have seen me for awhile, yet, I do all I can to keep it else where, where it belongs.

Matt


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

While we are defining ourselves, I would like to bring up a pet peeve: The use of the term "Zombies". When the SHTF there are going to be masses of people that have no clue. These people as a group are going to be of a stratified demographic, they will be a mix of everyone. We, [I like to include myself but I am a city dweller] commonly use that term and it would appear that we are glossing over with a broad brush. In this venue, we might not be able to take in many strays but some on here might, to commonly denigrate those without a clue as zombies is somewhat not fair.

To me, Zombies falls into the same category as nips, ----s, krauts, redskins, etc... a term used to denigrate others.

My .02


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## cast iron (Oct 4, 2004)

mpillow said:


> Absolutely correct....and this is why some are angry and frustrated. For example....the town wants me to get a demo permit for a chicken coop...:hammer: but if the snow collapses it...no prob.:facepalm:


It would be a real shame if while you were splitting some firewood the axe missed and knocked one of the coops support posts out and the coop collapsed under the weight of all that snow. A real shame.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

"Zombies" has been a term for quite some time...more recently as a mindless person. The ammo manufacturers are making a good deal of money using "zombie ammo" in their marketing, as well as the video gaming industry.
"Zombie" is no longer the "Night of the living Dead" 8mm film we watched growing up; it is more of a mindset for some, an obsession for others, and the rest are somewhere in between.
There are plenty of other terms that could be used, however, current marketing and news stories have fueled the use of the term "zombie", and some of the alternatives can be a lot worse.
Just some food for thought...pun intended.

Matt


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Yep, Zombie has replaced Sheeple in most cases.

There is also Grasshoppers.

All have been used here years.


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## Becka03 (Mar 29, 2009)

Ain't nobody gonna tell me I can't use the term Zombie - Walker or Sheeple...


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Well, I got a package form a seed company- it has my new Snow Peas in it. 1 has yellow peas and 1 has purple peas when ripe for picking. I thought that was really important because it will be so much easer for me to pick them. I have to up and down the row like 4 times to see all the peas when I have green snow peas. Will save me a lot of time. Now I need to work on getting a better vacume packer-I've had 3 and none work properly, so I gave up. But we are eating a lot of "wraps" for Dinners and I really need to stop dealing with frost bitten veggies in zip locks.
My next issue, I guess I'll go to the garden forum,,, is how long will it take for my peas to become Heirloom and they will breed back to what I just bought. So I won't have to buy seeds each year.


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## bloogrssgrl (Jan 20, 2008)

I rarely, rarely post in this forum - or much at all on HT lately - but I do still read here quite a bit and I feel somewhat compelled to chime in on this. If it is determined that I am a stalker and my opinion is unworthy, then so be it. 

As good and amazing as the Internet is, the destruction it has caused to common courtesy and civility is, without a doubt, one of the worst things to come along (in my opinion). The anonymity it provides has turned people into a despicable lot. Everything from message boards to comments on news sites are opportunities to spew hatred and insult without consequence. We would never think of talking to a stranger face-to-face the way some of us do online - and if one is the type of person to do that, my condolences to anyone who has to deal with him/her on a regular basis. 

Having said that, I think what might drive some of the folks that poke at others stems from a disconnect in communication and understanding. For example, take the topic of "agencies". 

The opinion that agencies are inherently bad does not hold much water when it is being professed by people who have, at one point or another, taken advantage of the benefits. (By "taken advantage" I do not mean "abused".) If You needed the benefits of that agency at some point, it stands to reason that you are not alone and many others might fall into the same situation at some point in their lifetimes. If it is/was ok for you to accept help when you need it, the same opinion should hold for others. So when some people who have used the benefits of agencies now present them as a bad thing, it tends to make some people say "Hey...wait a minute."

The sad thing is, I think _most_ people complaining about the agencies are thinking of the tales we all hear or instances we all know of someone abusing the system. And it's true, they do exist. I think _most_ of the people defending the agencies are thinking of the folks who truly do need a helping hand at some point. And again, they do exist as well.

So you have two groups of people trying to argue a topic from extremes when in reality they likely stand of pretty common ground. The anti-agency people seem to think it is a given that the other side understands, "Yes, some people DO need assistance but those are not the people I'm talking about!" The pro-agency people seem to think it is a given that the other side understands, "Yes, some people DO abuse the system but those are not the people I'm talking about!" But, sadly, both sides seem more content to argue.

Sigh...

The worst part of it is, a discussion is supposed to be "an exchange of ideas". Someone should be able to get feedback on why an idea may not be correct, plausible or sensible, as long as it can be done in a civilized way. Criticism needs to be constructive but, just as importantly, people have to be open to receiving it. The fact that there are people who refuse to leave the camp of negative criticism and the camp overly sensitive feelings is disheartening. The fact that people are being compelled to leave or driven out of this forum because of that, even more so.

The end.


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

We are looking to buy 7 1/2 acres for cash hopefully within the next month or so. That way we will be able to get this place fixed up and hopefully sold before the economy goes kablooey! Just the thought of doing this makes my heart pound a bit harder!


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

okay...this forum in a song....
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsQzw_Ax8Cw[/ame]


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## Vickie44 (Jul 27, 2010)

Maybe this is an April Fools joke?

You don't get Freedom through Censorship!


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