# Lgd problems with herding dog



## edwardsonfarm (Feb 3, 2015)

Hello all I need some advice. 
We are looking at expanding our hog operation and have the potential for them to run into wolves and coyotes. We want to know if having a lgd in with them would be problematic with our herding dogs. The herding dogs are for when we move the clan from one pasture to the other. We just don't want to confuse the lgd or get our herding dogs into a fight with the lgds. Any thoughts would be appreciated. 
Thank you for your time.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Hey. Just a heads up, it takes a few days for the knowledgeable people to come around, but someone will get to you. I wouldn't be comfortable getting into detail, but I know people do use both herding and LGDs. If you already have herding dogs working, that should help because there's a good chance your LGD pups will grow up understanding their herding dogs' role, especially if you establish yourself as the boss. 

Mind if I ask where in WI you're at? Have you had active predation in your area?


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## edwardsonfarm (Feb 3, 2015)

We live in northern Wisconsin (oneida county). We haven't had anything come after our animals yet but they ate definitely around. Just want to be ready before it's a problem. 

Where is Wisconsin are you located?


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

You need to bond your LGD to the pigs. Scroll down, I think Muleman has pigs and an LGD. The dog will be able to climb from one pen to another. During this time, he has to have no interaction with the collies. He then needs to meet them and accept them as belonging on the farm. They aren't likely to play much because their instincts are so very different, but they should get along. When you are ready to move the pigs, tie the LGD where you want the pigs to go. The LGD will not allow the collies to herd the pigs. The collies move the pigs, the pigs see their friend and will go toward him (to safety).


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

edwardsonfarm said:


> We live in northern Wisconsin (oneida county). We haven't had anything come after our animals yet but they ate definitely around. Just want to be ready before it's a problem.
> 
> Where is Wisconsin are you located?


Winnebago County. No wolf packs established down here that I've heard of, just coyotes. 

There are some pretty informative discussions in a lot of these threads. The two sticky threads have a lot of links to dig through. Motdagurnds taught me quite a bit with her thread. She more or less documented her dog's whole life up to this point, and a lot of people chimed in with advice. http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/li...3238-made-my-choice-bulgarian-karakachan.html

Not sure how much you know about LGDs, you might know a lot more than me already, but I felt like these two articles on Great Pyrenees really taught me a lot about how they work and how they think. Only thing I would say about the guy who wrote both articles is that his situation is pretty different from what you and me will probably have to deal with, so he seems to have strange herds/dogs meeting and interacting as a big group a bit more frequently. Even then, he only talks about one serious dog fight. 

http://www.great-pyrenees-club-of-southern-ontario.com/livestock-guardian-dogs.html
http://www.great-pyrenees-club-of-southern-ontario.com/livestock-guardian-dogs-2.html


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## edwardsonfarm (Feb 3, 2015)

Thanks everyone, you've been very helpful. Would there be a lgd breed that would be accept this situation better then others?


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

We have had Pyrenees for many years and in different locations with different predators and they have always done a great job protecting sheep, goats and now pigs. We raise them at a young age with the animals on the farm.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

If the lgd are used to the herding dogs they would likely be fine. I have never heard of wolves preying on domestic pigs but I'm sure its possible. One dog is not going to deter wolves, it will probably become lunch to them. You would need a pack of them. I would skip the lgd and invest in fencing and shelters it will be cheaper in the long run.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

If you're wanting an LGD to "guard" your pigs, you need to consider the "type" of predator(s) as well as the "number" (Do they run in "packs?) of those predators. 

Since you already have "herding" dogs, you would need to get LGD(s) at a very young age (at least 10-12 weeks old) so you can "socialize" them with your herding dogs WHILE THEY BOND WITH YOUR PIGS. This is not as complicated as it sounds; however, it does require your time/attention. (I personally had a grown lab with a heavy prey drive when I first got my Karakachan..an LGD; and I "demanded" the two of them get along ALL the time. When "demanding" compliance with an LGD, it is quite different from working with a regular dog because these LGDs NEED TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES while out amongst their charges.)

Good fencing is always a good idea; however, I do know some predators go right thru fencing; so if your property is rather large, a "few" LGDs would be good.

As for what "breed" may accept your situation better than another....I'm firmly of the belief it is not the breed but is the training owner's give their LGDs that creates "acceptance" of the diverse situations they are expected to deal with. (In my particular situation, I already had a grown dog that did NOT use its prey drive on any of my animals...goats and assortment of fowl as well as a house cat that enjoyed the outdoors from time to time. This meant the LGD I brought home did NOT need to curtail this dog's behavior in order to protect the animals I expected her to guard.) Since you have "herding" dogs, I suspect any LGD worth its salt would stop those dogs from "herding" its charges....Maura above has an excellent idea as to how to get the two types of dogs to work together for your situation.


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

We raise LGD's, and wouldn't use anything else to protect our stock--which includes almost everything: horses, cattle, goats, hogs, chickens, turkeys, ducks, meat rabbits, broilers, and even barn cats! They are awesome protectors. Here's the basics you need to know:

I would recommend starting with a pup, so the pup can be raised watching the herding dogs work. He will learn it is very normal behavior that you condone, before his stronger guarding instinct kicks in. 

It is your job to protect the pup while it is young--both from predators and big stock. There are many ways to do this. Ideally, since you want it to bond with hogs, I would raise it in a pen of young, recently weaned pigs. They won't be as dangerous or risky to a younger pup, and will bond very quickly. He will have a devotion toward hogs after that. 

Ensure you bring your herding dogs around frequently during those early months--maybe do some herding every week or two, just so the pup learns. They learn an amazing amount just by watching. 

If by chance you decide you want an older dog, they can/will learn to guard your hogs, BUT a mature LGD will always have a tendency to prefer being with the stock it was raised with. They won't create that tight bond for a long time with a totally new species. In addition, they may never grow to accept your herding dogs working the hogs (which can be seen as a threat). Some ranchers have been known to simply put the LGD in the barn on herding days, let the herding dogs work, and then put the LGD back out when the job is finished. It works too. 

Hope that gives a few things to think about!


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

What kind of herding dog do you use on pigs? I hunt my catahoula on feral hogs. Basically the catahoula antagonizes the hog long enough to get the hog mad enough to chase him and he's able to get an sounder to stay together long enough to have me arrive with a catch dog. In the old days, they were used to move hogs into pens by themselves. An old article here explains it more:https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzE7SLxcO11TZDB2UnNKV0pkX3c/view?usp=sharing

Just find it hard to believe there are herding dogs that can herd pigs. Pigs are super aggressive and more than perfectly capable of eating the dogs if they can catch them.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

TedH71, feral hogs and domestic pigs act differently, and a border collie can easily herd domestics - who have grown up seeing dogs and people and nasty, defensive pigs quickly become pork.

Also, doubtless you've seen in hunting wild pigs that the pigs first instinct is to run, and then as the dog keeps coming, they turn to fight. Hunting pigs, the safest way is to get them to turn and stand their ground as fast as possible.
Herding is all about finding the "balance point"; the distance where an animal is just agitated enough to move away, but not upset enough to run and nowhere near feeling so threatened they want to turn and fight.

And domestic pigs, being reasonably smart and not too mean or flighty, are easily trained to move away from the dog.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6i9ZiKVBRE[/ame]


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## edwardsonfarm (Feb 3, 2015)

Otter,
Thank you for that clip. Yes domestic pigs act differently but have the potential to be dangerous. But if ous go that direction they do become pork faster :thumb: Our dog is used more to encourage the pigs to move forward and to make sure the pasture change over happens quickly without incident. And most of all that human and hogs remain safe. All the pigs on our property have either been around dogs since birth or broke on dogs and are very social. it's a great asset to have.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

We have both a herding dog and a LGD. They were both pups at about the same time, though, so that made a difference probably. 

We kept the LGD with the livestock and the herder stayed at the house when he wasn't in training. Every day we'd let the two interact and play and bond as dog buddies but when it was time to work, either the BC was taken away from the livestock or the LGD was tethered when the BC was herding. 

The biggest challenge was teaching the LGD to remain calm while the herding dog did his thing. She was easy to train not to try to herd them herself, but she wanted to stop the herder from doing the same. 

Eventually that was overcome by just being there where she was tethered and correcting her for having a fit or praising her for staying calm and just watching. They're a pretty good team now.


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