# Trust and Wills



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

When My mother in law was in a nursing home for a while last summer she had a appointment with a lawyer to go over her will. The lawyer was rather upset to find out she was in a nursing home and said her will was all wrong and didn't protect her property from the home if they wanted to go after it.
So We worked on getting mom out of the home and it took some doing really but after about a month she was back home.

The lawyer set up a trust for mom with all her assets protected from places like a nursing home.
Today we started the ground work of setting up our own trust, once that is finished

I realize after listening to the agent it should be done and should have been done at age 55 when we had out first will drawn up.

I suggest that as a man and a wife you go together to see a lawyer to get your assets into a trust, and have a will drawn up. Keeps your assets out of probate court where your estate will be robbed blind and also protects your assets from a nursing home in that event too.

 Al


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## Micheal (Jan 28, 2009)

Not sure bout Michigan but in NY I believe there is a claw-back rule of either 3 or 5 years pertaining to the transfer of assets. Basically a creditor (usually Medicaid) can go after assets if there is a belief that the assets were transferred to avoid payment that Medicaid covered. 
Don't take this as gospel as I don't really the law word by word but one should really do some checking before thinking they are protected from ____.
As for putting assets into a trust? From what I've ever read about the types of trusts if not done right it could prove to be a very costly mistake. 
Me? The wife and I both have simple wills - just updated to include the GGkids....


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

In Virginia it is 5 years but there is an important caveat. In order to exempt the property from medicaid in a trust, you have to completely give up all control of it to a trustee who cannot be you and if the property gets sold, the money goes to the trust not you (and trusts pay taxes on income at the highest tax rate which is above most people's normal tax rates). You can avoid both if you put the house in the name of a child and the child lives with you for two years before you go into the nursing home if you are still in that 5 year window. 

Also know that medicare will provide nursing home assistance if the patient is admitted for rehab after being hospitalized for 3 days and there has been a recent fall. They cover 100% of the first 20 days and for days 21-90 they cover everything but a copay (and that daily copay is over $150/day now). If you haven't done anything else, at least try to get them admitted as a rehab patient if at all possible even if it is with a wink and a nod.


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## Micheal (Jan 28, 2009)

Declan said:


> You can avoid both if you put the house in the name of a child and the child lives with you for two years before you go into the nursing home if you are still in that 5 year window.
> .


First I've heard of the child (other person) has to live with you for 2 years..... hummm.
But the transferring of the house can lead to a whole number of different problems if that child (other person) screws up and the house being in their name becomes collateral to settle a debt or such, or for some reason he/she attempts to or does sell the house because of ____.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

Micheal said:


> First I've heard of the child (other person) has to live with you for 2 years..... hummm.
> But the transferring of the house can lead to a whole number of different problems if that child (other person) screws up and the house being in their name becomes collateral to settle a debt or such, or for some reason he/she attempts to or does sell the house because of ____.


Life is full of risks. Putting it in a trusts carries different kinds of risk, including the inability to borrow money against it.
As for the rest:


Some gifts or transfers within the five-year period before an application for Medicaid nursing home coverage are considered valid and don't cause any coverage delay.

*Unmarried person*
An unmarried person who applies for Medicaid coverage of nursing home costs can transfer the following assets without any penalty:


*Home to a child.* An unmarried Medicaid applicant can transfer title of his or her home to an adult child who's lived in the home for two years prior to the applicant entering a nursing home, during which time the adult child provided care that permitted the applicant/parent to live at home instead of entering a nursing home.


*Home to a sibling.* An unmarried Medicaid applicant can transfer full title of his or her home to a brother or sister who already has an ownership interest in the home and has lived there for at least the year prior to the Medicaid application.


*Other exempt assets.* An unmarried Medicaid applicant can transfer any other exempt asset -- such as a car or personal and household belongings -- to anyone.


*Any asset to a blind, disabled, or minor child.* An unmarried Medicaid applicant can transfer any asset, including a home, to a blind, disabled, or minor child.

*Married person*
A married person who applies for Medicaid coverage of nursing home costs can transfer the following assets without any penalty:


*Home.* A married Medicaid applicant can transfer home title to his or her spouse who remains living in the home (the "community spouse"). The community spouse can then, if he or she wants to, transfer title to an adult child or someone else. This double transfer takes the house out of the nursing home resident's estate and therefore is beyond the reach of Medicaid reimbursement when the community spouse dies.


*Other exempt assets.* A married Medicaid applicant can transfer any other exempt asset -- such as a car or personal and household belongings -- to anyone.


*Any asset to a blind, disabled, or minor child.* An unmarried Medicaid applicant can transfer any asset, including a home, to a blind, disabled, or minor child.


https://www.caring.com/articles/medicaid-nursing-home


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## Micheal (Jan 28, 2009)

Interesting......
Sorta confusing though, reading the 5 year claw back section then reading what can be transferred...... hummm
After having worked in a nursing home I've seen a few that "beat" the system, went with the system, and also a few that were destroyed financially by it. 
I guess that those with assets it could be best to deal with a local lawyer that knows the provisions and restrictions..


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

That is just what we did hire a Michigan Lawyer that specializes in trust and protections of assets from nursing homes.

Decided we would not rely on internet lawyers, just bite the bullet and spend the bucks to get it done right.
We really I guess you could say have two trust one is for a annuity with several thousand in it that strictly goes to the grand kids before we die they can get a bit to pay for college even.

 Al


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

Micheal said:


> Interesting......
> Sorta confusing though, reading the 5 year claw back section then reading what can be transferred...... hummm
> After having worked in a nursing home I've seen a few that "beat" the system, went with the system, and also a few that were destroyed financially by it.
> I guess that those with assets it could be best to deal with a local lawyer that knows the provisions and restrictions..


But you need to go see an actual local lawyer and avoid those "free" workshop deals that try to sell you these complicated estate planning packages. They are there to convince you to hire them to draft as many documents as possible to make money. They don't have your best interest at heart or else you may end up paying someone else as much or more than you paid the seminar people to undo stuff you really shouldn't have ever done to begin with.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

Ummmmmm. . . . . . . . so WHO do you think pays the nursing home bill if your loved one doesn't "have" any assets? 

The state. So the taxpayers who live in that state are paying for your loved one's care because all of their assets are hidden so the heirs can get it.

I've seen the effects of people's accounts when they enter a nursing home. My Grandmother, my Father, my Father-in-Law and my Mother-in-Law. They were all self pay - meaning they paid for their care.

I've also seen the other side - my Uncle - who spent his money and ended up with nothing. Living in a nursing home for over a year - with the people of Pennsylvania paying for his care because he spent his money.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Have you ever spent time in a nursing home with a loved one? My mom was badly scalded because they had a coffee urn set up for self serve and temp set to hot. Mom went in for rehab for a broken hip
My mother in law went in for the same thing. Put in a bed and strapped down and alarms hook up so she could not get up and wonder off. Thankfully my wife arrived to raise hell over that crap. Also put in a room with a total nut case who my wife discovered combing mother inlaws hair as she slept when Kare took a bit of time to go to the rest room. Place was such a crappy place the 3 girls did shifts and stayed with the mother in law 24/7 while we worked to get her released.

I told my wife DO NOT PUT ME IN A HOME. Help me out to the barn and give me a strong rope. I can do the rest.

 Al


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

Michael W. Smith said:


> Ummmmmm. . . . . . . . so WHO do you think pays the nursing home bill if your loved one doesn't "have" any assets?
> 
> The state. So the taxpayers who live in that state are paying for your loved one's care because all of their assets are hidden so the heirs can get it.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree as often I am bothered by the shielding of assets. I do like the the exemption for people who stayed there and took care of the relatives to keep them out as long as possible though. In our case it sort of worked out because my dad's mom had bought him multiple life insurance policies when he was a baby we didn't know about that my mom got when he died which were almost enough to pay for her out of pockets to the nursing home before she died. I would have bought their house to keep it had it been otherwise which I wish I had done anyway because now I have some very sketchy co-owning children of a dead sibling to deal with. I mow the grass and pay the taxes, but otherwise leave it sitting there empty due to them because I am not going to pay a pound of flesh to people who couldn't have given a rat's butt about my parents for their combined 1/6th interest that they think is worth 50%


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

States laws vary on this and "trusts" are not always the answer.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

I quickly scooted through this post and noticed something not mentioned that is just as important as a Will... *A Living Will !* Something that should be in place in the event you become incapacitated and unable to make decisions. I realize the legal system in the USA is somewhat different and to confuse things even more, each state has it's own extra little ditty too so I don't know if there is a universal answer... but a Living Will can save a great deal of grief & trouble for not only yourself but the family as well as who you appoint as Trustee / Executor.

In particular, this is something that should be seriously considered by anyone with failing health, health issues which could create issues or for anyone who is terminal. I know it's unpleasant but sometimes a terminal patient can lapse into coma for an extended period prior to passing away and so a Living Will can provide provisions for such instances... 

Another important point a few have touched on somewhat... Loose ends and complications not addressed will only result in loss of assets / inheritances etc to lawyer's & revenuer's who are always out trying to grab every penny possible from anyone... Dunno about you but I have NO LOVE for Lawyers & Revenuer's...


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

My sister and her husband went to one of those "free" seminars and thought that the presenter was so intelligent that they hired him do their wills...at $10,000 each! Somebody thinks they have money! (hint: they have a law degree) Five will get you ten that in three years the lawyer will be telling them they need to re-do their wills because "things change".

$20,000 for a total of two wills and a trust is more than a little extreme.

Then again....

This is the sister who had a young dog that was biting people. I told her she needed to get the dog to a pet behaviourist or psychologist to correct the problem. What she did was call a pet psychic because she liked their web page.......psychic, who did the "reading" over the phone said that the dog (imported from Spain) was upset because it didn't understand the language.

I will know I deserve to be in a nursing home when this sister starts making sense.

Mon


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## Micheal (Jan 28, 2009)

frogmammy said:


> $20,000 for a total of two wills and a trust is more than a little extreme.


And I thought I was over charged by paying $300 for the up-dating of 2 wills......... WOW


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

If a person has assets, then those assets should be used to pay for long term care first. Whatever is left over goes to the heirs. All this "hiding" from Medicaid or nursing homes doesn't seem right to me. A friend's mother developed Alzheimer's and ended up in a nursing home. In Texas the person's primary residence is exempt when counting assets. Since she had other assets than the home, the lawyer told the kids to sell their mother's home and buy another in her name that the price equaled the amount of assets she had. Since the new place (actually a ranch) became her primary residence, the funds were sheltered from Medicaid. I really didn't think that was right. Yes, maybe legal, but certainly not ethical.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

I am going to use every legal means at my disposal to shield any assets I have from the government. I worked for that money and property. Very hard. Multiple jobs. I worked when the grasshoppers around me had a wonderful time - hunting on leases I couldn't afford, buying boats and atvs I didn't have, living in homes you could put mine inside of. Grasshoppers can also be poor, living off of the government teat as they suck off of welfare and Medicaid most of their lives, yet refusing to work for any length of time or train for the jobs that are out there. Yet, when my wife or I have to be put in a nursing home, the government will suck up every dime I've ever made and put a lien against my property (if I live long enough), while the grasshopper in the next bed has his care paid for by the government.

Know what? By the time I get to that age, I'm going to be a grasshopper. I'm going to work the government for every dime I can wring out of it. And my children will get the fruits of my labor, not some young grasshopper who will not work or who thinks making a living constitutes spitting out babies at a regular interval with questionable parentage, or some old grasshopper who lived a life I never did.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

It's not about "grasshoppers" benefiting from your paying or not paying nursing home costs out of pocket, but the fact that the fees are dumped on hard working tax payers. It used to be this country had a sense of responsibility in caring for oneself and helping others. Now it seems to just be about grabbing all a person can regardless of how it hurts others. People used to save so they could be taken care of in their old age. Now it seems to be all about hoarding funds and letting the government (ie. the taxpayers) take care of them.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

It's a two edged sword. I can certainly see Jolly's side of the picture.

When my Dad ended up in a nursing home with brain and lung cancer, luckily he wasn't in there all that long. I think about 5 or 6 month's.

My wife's Dad was first in assisted living while his wife moved in with us. They were not able to care for themselves anymore and there is no way we could take care of both of them. As he got worse, he was moved to full nursing home care until he died. (About 7 months.)

We took care of my Mother-In-Law for 5 years until her dementia got too bad. She first went into assisted living and was there for about 8 months before being put into full nursing home care. Those checks were painful to write - over $6000.00 / month - but there was no way we could provide the care needed - and she had the money.

I guess we were lucky. Our loved one's weren't in nursing home care for year upon year. It certainly wouldn't take long to eat up an estate after several years.

My F-I-L and M-I-L saved and scrimped to get what they had. It seems ridiculous to "give it" to the State for nursing home care. But they are being cared for and they have the money.

Of course, it used to be older people lived with family when they got older and needed help. Many people are "too busy" to care for their loved ones. Of course, with people living longer - and more advancement with medical procedures - we end up with elderly who can't do much for themselves (if anything at all). Most families aren't set up to care for a loved one with such needs.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Belfrybat said:


> It's not about "grasshoppers" benefiting from your paying or not paying nursing home costs out of pocket, but the fact that the fees are dumped on hard working tax payers. It used to be this country had a sense of responsibility in caring for oneself and helping others. Now it seems to just be about grabbing all a person can regardless of how it hurts others. People used to save so they could be taken care of in their old age. Now it seems to be all about hoarding funds and letting the government (ie. the taxpayers) take care of them.


The day when everybody pays and no one is sucking the government teat, I will be more than happy to pay my fair share. My wife, my children and my family come before the government, at least as I see my responsibilities.


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

I agree if you have the funds you should pay not expect taxpayers to do it. My mother-in-law was in the nursing home for six years and went through all her funds in a little over a year and then was on Medicaid. However, every cent of her own funds were used first. She was upset her sons would not get anything, but they weren't.

When my dh had to go to the nursing home, I went to DHS and did an asset allocation to separate 50% of our assets to me so I wouldn't end up with nothing. Unfortunately, dh passed before it was needed.

Medicare will pay for 100 days in nursing home when you go from hospital to nursing home if you have had three midnights as "acute" in the hospital. My dh was hospitalized three times and the hospital made darn sure he did not get three acute midnights. The hospital was focused on getting him out not fixing him in order to comply with Medicare regulations. The social worker was in my face about getting him out of the hospital and into a nursing home BEFORE the nurses had him settled into his room on admittance. I was naïve and asked why she was asking me that before it was determined he wouldn't go home. (By the third admission that little social worker learned to stay out of my face!) An admission starts as "observation", moves to "acute" and then out before you get the third midnight. On one admission, I objected to his being released because they hadn't figured out what was wrong -- they kept him another night, but it was listed as "family request" not acute. I wasn't requesting because of Medicare paying 100 days (although it would have been nice!), I wanted them to figure out what was wrong.

I'm not sure, but think the Medicaid look back has changed from 5 to 7 years.

I don't know what kind of nursing home would tie someone down, but I can tell you that is illegal. I'm pretty sure they aren't allowed to use the alarms that go off when patients get out of bed or their wheelchair. I'm also not convinced all the rules to protect the clients' rights are really in their best interest. Some dementia patients are a danger to themselves and others when they get up and wander or get up and fall. The pressure sensitive warnings are not restrictive to the client and provide a warning to staff, but, of course, .gov says they violate patient's rights so can't be used even though they protect the patient. I hated seeing a patient restrained (years ago), but I also know unrestrained patients often fall and injure themselves. Elderly often forget they can't stand and walk and will try and fall. The nursing homes are not allowed to restrain and then are fined if someone falls. Its a lose/lose situation for everyone.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Just an fyi. Cost down here for a revocable trust for the wife and I was $4400.

As others have said, avoid the seminars and deal with a good elder care attorney. One size does not fit all!


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

alleyyooper said:


> Have you ever spent time in a nursing home with a loved one? My mom was badly scalded because they had a coffee urn set up for self serve and temp set to hot. Mom went in for rehab for a broken hip
> My mother in law went in for the same thing. Put in a bed and strapped down and alarms hook up so she could not get up and wonder off. Thankfully my wife arrived to raise hell over that crap. Also put in a room with a total nut case who my wife discovered combing mother inlaws hair as she slept when Kare took a bit of time to go to the rest room. Place was such a crappy place the 3 girls did shifts and stayed with the mother in law 24/7 while we worked to get her released.
> 
> I told my wife DO NOT PUT ME IN A HOME. Help me out to the barn and give me a strong rope. I can do the rest.
> ...


oh I like that idea Al. and I'm headed back to where I got a barn next year. I've seen some stuff go on in those nursing homes. that's why I took care of 2 husbands myself . there were times when I wondered if I'd see it to the end. no matter how hard I was determined. they were staying home. I just hope I got all my faculities about me and don't take a stroke or something.

my GGrandfather had the right idea when he knew the end was coming walked off into the woods. none of the sons looked for him as I mentioned before. they were told it would happen. that was back in the day when you could do it. ~Georgia


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Just spent time yesterday signing all the papers, will, power of attorney general and power of attorney medical and the trust papers themselves.

I did throw a fit and put my foot down when they wanted me to sign the papers that would put my deer camp property in the trust. No way in hell I'm doing that and if I want to sell it have to ask the executor of the trust for permission to do so.
Not totally happy with the executor appointed either, think she is a lying *****.

 Al


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