# This goes too far



## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

*Kansas middle schooler charged with felony after pointing finger gun at classmates: report*
BY JESSICA CAMPISI - 10/11/19 02:30 PM EDT 473
57

Kids can be jerks but this needs to be handled by the school and the parents. Not cops and courts.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I can’t read the article. Was this a credible threat and intimidation?


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

It has to do with her friends asking who she would shoot if she could.
She pointed her finger like a gun at 4 or 5 kids.
Not cool but


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## ticndig (Sep 7, 2014)

just more snow flakes melting . the world in which we grew up will never be the same again.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It doesn’t sound like a serious threat


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Anne Arundel County 7-year-old suspended from school for nibbling a breakfast pastry into the shape of a pistol


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Anne Arundel County 7-year-old suspended from school for nibbling a breakfast pastry into the shape of a pistol


I thought you were joking.....

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/student-suspended-for-pop-tart-gun_n_2903500


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> I thought you were joking.....
> 
> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/student-suspended-for-pop-tart-gun_n_2903500


The scariest part about that story... it was six years ago. 




There comes a point when a lemming realizes that it’s traveling faster than it ever has before.

Unfortunately, that realization approaches at precisely 32.18 f/s/s.


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## ticndig (Sep 7, 2014)

The ingredients of a pop tart are pretty deadly after all.


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## dmm1976 (Oct 29, 2013)

bout 16 years ago my then 8 year old wanted to goto school as Pocahontas. So i put together the cutest costume for her from hand me downs ans thrift finds. Went to dollar tree and bought a spear that we attached feathers to. It was basically a wooden stick with a floppy rubber "spearhead" it wasnt even a rigid plastic one. 

The principal confiscated it as a "weapon" zero tolerance.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> I thought you were joking.....
> 
> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/student-suspended-for-pop-tart-gun_n_2903500


That picture can't be the real thing.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

SRSLADE said:


> That picture can't be the real thing.


From what I remember when it was first reported, it looked more like an L.


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## D-BOONE (Feb 9, 2016)

This needs to go to trial so the people can render a not guilty verdict and a vote of no confidence in the prosecuting attorney


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Send your children to government schools, you get government education/rules. The federalization of education has led to a loss of local control/accountability. There is probably some rule 8j in their federal funding that requires a zero tolerance policy on pretend gun violence.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Top two important things most parents want from their local elementary and high schools-

A. Quality Teachers.
That includes staff and administration and their ability to use common sense.

B. Curriculum.
Parents, as a rule, want their kids to be exposed to the basic fundamentals of language, math, etc with the availability of advanced programs as they move thru school.
Social reengineering does not fill a hole, it creates one and steals precious time away from youth who are better served with a strong emphasis on traditional learning.

They are entrusted with our kids for about 8 hours 5 days a week to prepare them academically, nothing more, and to keep them safe until they return home.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

dmm1976 said:


> bout 16 years ago my then 8 year old wanted to goto school as Pocahontas. So i put together the cutest costume for her from hand me downs ans thrift finds. Went to dollar tree and bought a spear that we attached feathers to. It was basically a wooden stick with a floppy rubber "spearhead" it wasnt even a rigid plastic one.
> 
> The principal confiscated it as a "weapon" zero tolerance.


 Probably couldn't even get by without the spear these days. Can't be "mocking" the Early Americans ya know.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SRSLADE said:


> That picture can't be the real thing.


Yeah, Huff tends to be dramatic at times.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> That picture can't be the real thing.


It isn't. The real one looked nothing like that. The kid got in trouble because he called it a gun. The kid had a defect.

The suspension was upheld in court.

By Jessica Chasmar - The Washington Times - Friday, June 17, 2016
A Maryland judge has upheld the suspension of a second-grader who chewed his breakfast pastry into the shape of a gun and pretended to shoot classmates.

Anne Arundel County Circuit Court Judge Ronald A. Silkworth ruled this week that the school system could reasonably consider that the boy’s actions in March 2013 were disruptive and that a suspension was appropriate, due to the boy’s past behavioral issues, The Washington Post reported Thursday.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> It isn't. The real one looked nothing like that. The kid got in trouble because he called it a gun. The kid had a defect.
> 
> The suspension was upheld in court.
> 
> ...


Oh well that changes everything then. Apparently he is a repeat criminal offender and should just be locked forever.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> Oh well that changes everything then. Apparently he is a repeat criminal offender and should just be locked forever.


It was blown way out of proportion without question. I was surprised the court upheld the suspension.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Red flag laws should be amended to include pop tart guns and require licensing.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

SRSLADE said:


> It has to do with her friends asking who she would shoot if she could.
> She pointed her finger like a gun at 4 or 5 kids.
> Not cool but


If the school felt the need to get involved, they would have been far more useful to concern themselves with why kids felt the need to discuss who they would shoot someone.


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## dmm1976 (Oct 29, 2013)

wr said:


> If the school felt the need to get involved, they would have been far more useful to concern themselves with why kids felt the need to discuss who they would shoot someone.


I mean, kids play Marry, F×%\, kill 

Idk. I think about the things I said or.did as a kid. Not always an underlying issue. Just kids exploring their minds.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

wr said:


> If the school felt the need to get involved, they would have been far more useful to concern themselves with why kids felt the need to discuss who they would shoot someone.


Yes, that would be them getting involved.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

dmm1976 said:


> I mean, kids play Marry, F×%\, kill
> 
> Idk. I think about the things I said or.did as a kid. Not always an underlying issue. Just kids exploring their minds.



Maybe I'm reading too much into a minor incident but my own community has seen 3 young people bullied to death in the last couple years so when I hear of a kid indicating specific people they'd like to see eliminated, I have to wonder if there is a greater problem that's not being addressed.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

wr said:


> Maybe I'm reading too much into a minor incident but my own community has seen 3 young people bullied to death in the last couple years so when I hear of a kid indicating specific people they'd like to see eliminated, I have to wonder if there is a greater problem that's not being addressed.


I think there is a greater problem and it starts at home.
What were you thinking?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

wr said:


> Maybe I'm reading too much into a minor incident but my own community has seen 3 young people bullied to death in the last couple years so when I hear of a kid indicating specific people they'd like to see eliminated, I have to wonder if there is a greater problem that's not being addressed.


How exactly do you bully someone to death?


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

easy - bully until the kid no longer thinks it's worth living and he/she commits suicide.

Therapy would have been a much better alternative than suspension.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> How exactly do you bully someone to death?


It does happen. I have been to too many teen suicide calls in my life. Many from bullying some from bad home life.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

wr said:


> Maybe I'm reading too much into a minor incident but my own community has seen 3 young people bullied to death in the last couple years so when I hear of a kid indicating specific people they'd like to see eliminated, I have to wonder if there is a greater problem that's not being addressed.


I was bullied for a matter of months in sixth grade (new kid) till my dad went into the school.
I still remember how awful it was. And I had a loving family behind me.
I can’t imagine what it’s like for kids with a poor family life and with social media. 
Neither of my daughters were ever bullied but they did stick up for kids who were. 
Not much else they could do to make me prouder of them.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

muleskinner2 said:


> How exactly do you bully someone to death?


Bullying is a real thing.
I don’t think it can be fatal in a vacuum; meaning that, when it results in suicide, the target has to already be predisposed to emotional instability- but, then again, we are generally talking about adolescents, so how many aren’t?

The crazy thing is that it seems to be getting worse, even as we “progress” toward a kinder/gentler society. The well-kept kids of upper-middle class suburbia appear to be extra vicious about it... and extraordinarily thin-skinned; a recipe for disaster.

...................

There was a local story here last week that kind of shocked me.

A young girl snuck into a private (Facebook? Snapchat?) group where her fellow students were allegedly assembled in racist solidarity against the brown kids in their school.

If this is real, I find it disturbing. I’ve been living the last couple decades thinking that racism (the real, ugly kind, not the political-weapon kind) was mostly reserved to old people, and that it would be all but dead in a generation or two. If school kids are as racist as they were a generation or two ago, and now can Facetweet it at each other, it’s probably not going anywhere any time soon.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Eventually we'll get to survival of the fittest.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

gilberte said:


> Eventually we'll get to survival of the fittest.


Government mandated gym memberships?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

gilberte said:


> Eventually we'll get to survival of the fittest.
> 
> 
> mreynolds said:
> ...


Literally.

Your treadmill will produce the power to process the soylent green. If you don’t run, no green for you.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Not even close. There will be little or no goobermint and certainly no gyms and little need for them


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

gilberte said:


> Eventually we'll get to survival of the fittest.


Maybe, or maybe not. We are already fighting against thriving of the fittest. That is what all this PC social justice crap is about.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

The way these fools are going they will plateau and rather than eat the animals they will allow the animals to eat them.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

gilberte said:


> Not even close. There will be little or no goobermint and certainly no gyms and little need for them


There will always be "government", when more than 3 people gather. It might not have big fancy buildings, and it might be much more decentralized, but someone will be in charge of every little pocket of people, and they will battle all the other "pockets" of people, and they will form bigger, and bigger alliances, until we get right back to the here and now. Not sure how long all that will take.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

You're probably right. I remember seeing or hearing something about a "circle" thing.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

HDRider said:


> It was blown way out of proportion without question. I was surprised the court upheld the suspension.


The government will almost always support its own folks.

Imagine how the founding fathers would react to such governmental actions.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

NRA_guy said:


> The government will almost always support its own folks.
> 
> Imagine how the founding fathers would react to such governmental actions.


I think anyone from our past, be it 250 years, or just 50 years, would be shocked by our conduct and culture. 

You don't get where we are today by leaps, you get here by steps so small you can't see our feet move.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

It's the same old frog in the pan of water on the stove story, no wonder it is so relevant


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> I think anyone from our past, be it 250 years, or just 50 years, would be shocked by our conduct and culture.
> 
> You don't get where we are today by leaps, you get here by steps so small you can't see our feet move.


Have you ever been in the ocean, about waist high, as a kid, just jumping and dunking, milling about? You look to shore and there are your parents, on their beach blanket, right in front of you. Then you spin around, go under for a second, come up, looking at the wave about to crash down on you.
It may have only been 20 seconds, but as you turn back around you can't see your mom and dad. You look and they aren't there. Then you realize they are 30' to your right; still on their blanket. They haven't moved, you have. How?
Simple, everytime you picked up your feet the undercurrent carried you.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Q


Lisa in WA said:


> I was bullied for a matter of months in sixth grade (new kid) till my dad went into the school.
> I still remember how awful it was. And I had a loving family behind me.
> I can’t imagine what it’s like for kids with a poor family life and with social media.
> Neither of my daughters were ever bullied but they did stick up for kids who were.
> Not much else they could do to make me prouder of them.


you can’t imagine ?
Let me explain.
It’s a nightmare you’re constantly being punished for something that’s not your fault. In my case I was always the new kid in school dad was in the army. I hated going to civilian schools because there was always some kid that felt like he had to make your life a nightmare.
And of course when your dad is in some foreign country he can’t come in the school and defend you.
lol Like that Would ever happened anyway.
In my case it was the fifth grade that made the difference. One particular Anus Made it his duty to beat me up at every recess and lunch.
Now some would say it’s all my fault for not beating him up myself but believe me I tried. he was twice my size and apparently trained in martial arts.
So the next year I was in a different school and of course on the first day of school somebody wanted to Beat me up.
I totally went off on this kid I put everything I had into beating him up and once I got him on the ground I found a baseball bat went after him again and when the teachers tried to break it up I went after them too. 
I was suspended for a week totally worth it when I came back everybody thought I was insane but they left me alone.
Next year and every year after that I used the same method.
I got in a few fights after that but I always made it a point to be judged insane the first day of school.
It sure made my life a lot more pleasant.
Before you judge those kids that committed suicide ask yourself would you have seen any point in living when you had no friends and somebody was literally beating you bloody Three times a day? It doesn’t seem like life is going to get any better there’s no indication in your life that things will ever be more pleasant so why put up with it?


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

I'm sorry you had to go through that, AmericanStand. That's awful.

Maybe the problem isn't with kids. Anyone who has been one or raised some knows that they can be horrible little tyrants.

Maybe the problem is putting potential horrible little tyrants and potential victims in an institution too large for responsible adults to oversee them properly, which results in out takes from Lord of the Flies.

One of the many, many reasons I chose to home school my kids after their elementary school experiences showed me the light. There's something really unnatural and unhealthy about what public school has been evolving into. You can't put a few thousand kids into a building complex with less than a couple hundred adults and expect good things to happen. JMHO.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I’d really like to agree with you on this one because I do not like big schools but this was actually one of the smaller schools I was ever in there were about a dozen kids in each grade. 
On the other hand the two largest schools that I was ever in where among the safest for me. 
Both Of them were about 5000 kids and one of them was inner-city Baltimore


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> I’d really like to agree with you on this one because I do not like big schools but this was actually one of the smaller schools I was ever in there were about a dozen kids in each grade.
> On the other hand the two largest schools that I was ever in where among the safest for me.
> Both Of them were about 5000 kids and one of them was inner-city Baltimore


My kids started out in small schools that were OK - not great, but OK - and ended up in really large schools that were just awful in a lot of ways.

After thinking about it a lot when deciding to home school, I just started thinking school is unnatural for the way that we've always evolved to learn and grow as humans. It isn't natural to put even a dozen 5 or 13 year olds into a group and let them learn from each other with only an adult here or there to straighten them out occasionally. What is natural for humans is to learn by doing, and to learn from a group of various adults - often being the only child of their age in the "learning group" so that they get a lot of direct teachable moments from mom and dad, aunt and uncle, grandma and grandpa, adult neighbors, etc. It's not natural to lump them in with other kids who don't know anything anyway and tend to love teaching each other horrific things instead of actual life lessons (and no, being jumped in the locker room by a gang of disaffected children is not a life lesson).

The whole socialization stigma about home schooled children is so ridiculous. I'd prefer my children to be socialized to be able to easily interact with adults, as most of children are not going to go on to live life in an insulated group of people their own age.

Institutions rarely do a good job of molding humans, and we've institutionalized education. It's not ending well.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol I have to agree with your conclusions but I don’t agree with the way you got there.
Think of a small tribe there would be interactions between kids and various ages but they would naturally tend to sort themselves out into older and younger groups and they would learn quite a bit from each other due to competition.

And I think one of the things about society that I don’t like now is that yes children are going to go on and live with people that are about their age and agree with them.

ever wonder how people can come to the same conclusion with much different assumptions? We just did it.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol I have to agree with your conclusions but I don’t agree with the way you got there.
> Think of a small tribe there would be interactions between kids and various ages but they would naturally tend to sort themselves out into older and younger groups and they would learn quite a bit from each other due to competition.
> 
> And I think one of the things about society that I don’t like now is that yes children are going to go on and live with people that are about their age and agree with them.
> ...


You're not even remotely going to be interacting with only people your own age once you're out of college - which is another artificial institutionalized society. Out in the real world you'll be working with people older, much older, and eventually younger and much younger. You'll never again be in a situation where you're doing things 8 hours a day with a large group of people exactly your age, because that's an artificial construct they've grown up in that doesn't reflect real world conditions.

I think we came to the same conclusion through different paths because I've watched little people struggling through this school thing, and that made me really start thinking about the weird system we've built to "educate" kids. I started seeing all of the failure points one at a time, thought long and hard about whether it could be done better and whether it would be less harmful to them to do it another way, and realized that this isn't the particular institutional meat grinder that I wanted to send my kids through. 

It was just a personal waking up for me, why do I have to do what everyone else in society just does without thinking about it, even when it's obviously harmful to some of their children? I did it without thinking about it until I started to think. Conditioning is wonderful.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

AmericanStand said:


> Q
> 
> you can’t imagine ?
> Let me explain.
> ...


Looking back, is there anything you could have done different. When I was a kid we argued, fought, played king of the mountain, threw each other off snowbanks, barn roofs, and tractors. Nobody ever died from it, and nobody committed suicide. But, we didn't have social media, and the internet where you could be bombarded 24x7 either.

I guess, I'll never understand it.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Bullying is a real thing.
> I don’t think it can be fatal in a vacuum; meaning that, when it results in suicide, the target has to already be predisposed to emotional instability- but, then again, we are generally talking about adolescents, so how many aren’t?
> 
> The crazy thing is that it seems to be getting worse, even as we “progress” toward a kinder/gentler society. The well-kept kids of upper-middle class suburbia appear to be extra vicious about it... and extraordinarily thin-skinned; a recipe for disaster.
> ...


It is hard wired into humans, regardless of race, creed or education. It won't go away, because it can't. When I worked in Africa, I saw it first hand. And when it comes to racism, white people are babes in the woods. In Africa, if someone is from a different tribe, they aren't even considered human. In our society we don't really have tribes, so we react to the first thing that makes us different. And that is usually skin color. In modern society, where we all live shoulder to shoulder, it will only get worse.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

muleskinner2 said:


> Looking back, is there anything you could have done different. When I was a kid we argued, fought, played king of the mountain, threw each other off snowbanks, barn roofs, and tractors. Nobody ever died from it, and nobody committed suicide. But, we didn't have social media, and the internet where you could be bombarded 24x7 either.
> 
> I guess, I'll never understand it.


 Being a part of the group is different.
Being a social out cast alone is more than a child alone can deal with. 
They simply don’t have the skills
My Parents will die within 4 miles of where they were born with the same people they were raised with. 
When dad joined the Army he had an automatic peer group and when we moved to base essentially my mother had the same. 
It was when we moved back to the small towns that my parents were comfortable with that my nightmares were the worst.
I moved every year my parents would tell you that they didn’t
Dad would spend three years at the same job on army base. But the second year we would move off base I would of course have a new school the next year I would again change schools because of my age. 
Neither of my parents have ever been the new kid in school so they never had any concept of what I dealt with 
As you no doubt have noticed I don’t think the same as other people either. When you are a fourth grader that reads college textbooks for fun it doesn’t endear you to the other kids in class.

So I believe you when you say you’ll never understand it I don’t expect you to


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

AmericanStand said:


> Being a part of the group is different.
> Being a social out cast alone is more than a child alone can deal with.
> They simply don’t have the skills
> My Parents will die within 4 miles of where they were born with the same people they were raised with.
> ...



Ok, I think I understand that.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> Q
> 
> you can’t imagine ?
> Let me explain.
> ...


You must have completely misread my post that you responded to. 
I said that I can’t imagine how awful it is for kids now with poor home lives and the additional bullying tool of social media. Not that I can’t imagine how terrible it is.
Nowhere did I judge anyone who committed suicide.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I tended to undergo physical abuse ,I felt even worse for the kids that underwent psychological abuse fat girls, ugly kids, those with physical deformities. For the most part I had to hope that in a year I would be gone and perhaps things will get better at least for a little while. Those kids were stuck with this crap forever when no sense of hope in sight.
I totally understand when they desire to take out a few of their school mates


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lisa in WA said:


> You must have completely misread my post that you responded to.
> I said that I can’t imagine how awful it is for kids now with poor home lives and the additional bullying tool of social media. Not that I can’t imagine how terrible it is.
> Nowhere did I judge anyone who committed suicide.


 I honestly don’t think the social media makes that much difference. The whole nightmare is so intense that it’s like handing a spoonful of Sand to a guy drowning in quicksand. 
It’s a different way of inflicting pain and humiliation I’m not sure it’s additional just a different way


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> I honestly don’t think the social media makes that much difference. The whole nightmare is so intense that it’s like having a spoonful of Sand to a guy drowning in quicksand.
> It’s a different way of inflicting pain and humiliation I’m not sure it’s additional just a different way


I understand that.
It took me a while to realize that mine only went on for maybe five months, but the bad part was, a couple of teachers were complicit. Though I was a girl, there was still physical bullying till my dad taught me to fight and I did. I might not have won, but I found out that many bullies don’t expect that and will back off when the victim fights back. My dad finally went into the school and when the male teacher who was complicit in the lunchroom bullying grinned at him, my dad in his three piece suit threatened to throw him over the desk. At that point the principal got involved and it all stopped dead.
In time I actually became somewhat friendly with a couple of the bullies. 
Kids can be brutal and the combination of curly red hair and being new wasn’t pleasant. Anything that sets you apart from the pack is a vulnerability 
Bullying impacts the victim for a long, long time. If not the rest of their lives.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol Charlie Brown and I agree curly Red haired girls are the best!


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Being a part of the group is different.
> Being a social out cast alone is more than a child alone can deal with.
> They simply don’t have the skills
> My Parents will die within 4 miles of where they were born with the same people they were raised with.
> ...


It's really difficult for military brats. That was another reason I started homeschooling mine, the constant moves to new schools were getting to be too much for them. They were 3 years apart, too, so they couldn't really stick together in the big schools as easily since they stagger lunch times for different grades. It was slightly better in the smaller schools because they could at least eat lunch together and sometimes have recess at the same time. Still it was too much for them, and me. Both of them wanted to home school by 5th grade (and the umpteenth move). Hadn't even occurred to me until the oldest asked if she could. I feel stupid for not thinking of it sooner when they were struggling so much.

It broke my heart for my kids, and my heart breaks for little kid you. I do understand, and I'm so sorry you had to go through that.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Wolf mom said:


> easy - bully until the kid no longer thinks it's worth living and he/she commits suicide.
> 
> Therapy would have been a much better alternative than suspension.


What sort of therapy do you give a kid for playing with his food?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Mish said:


> It's really difficult for military brats. That was another reason I started homeschooling mine, the constant moves to new schools were getting to be too much for them. They were 3 years apart, too, so they couldn't really stick together in the big schools as easily since they stagger lunch times for different grades. It was slightly better in the smaller schools because they could at least eat lunch together and sometimes have recess at the same time. Still it was too much for them, and me. Both of them wanted to home school by 5th grade (and the umpteenth move). Hadn't even occurred to me until the oldest asked if she could. I feel stupid for not thinking of it sooner when they were struggling so much.
> 
> It broke my heart for my kids, and my heart breaks for little kid you. I do understand, and I'm so sorry you had to go through that.


 One of the best things about homeschooling your own kids is they won’t have as much wasted downtime


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Mish said:


> It's really difficult for military brats. That was another reason I started homeschooling mine, the constant moves to new schools were getting to be too much for them. They were 3 years apart, too, so they couldn't really stick together in the big schools as easily since they stagger lunch times for different grades. It was slightly better in the smaller schools because they could at least eat lunch together and sometimes have recess at the same time. Still it was too much for them, and me. Both of them wanted to home school by 5th grade (and the umpteenth move). Hadn't even occurred to me until the oldest asked if she could. I feel stupid for not thinking of it sooner when they were struggling so much.
> 
> It broke my heart for my kids, and my heart breaks for little kid you. I do understand, and I'm so sorry you had to go through that.


 My youngest was a classic ADHD kid. I’d had enough after fourth grade and pulled her to home school for 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th grades. She opted to go to the local high school but had to take most classes online anyway to get AP classes. Thank goodness for the Calvert School. 
She’s in her last year of law school now so I guess my PITA mother in law was wrong about me “intellectually neglecting” her.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Anne Arundel County 7-year-old suspended from school for nibbling a breakfast pastry into the shape of a pistol


Not exactly. The kid was suspended for yet another in a very long line of disruptive behavior incidents. This kid was no stranger to the principal’s office.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol Charlie Brown and I agree curly *Red haired girls* are the best!


The real ones are ok.
The pretend ones, not so much.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> The kid was suspended for yet another in a very long line of *disruptive behavior* incidents.


What's "disruptive" about eating a poptart?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What's "disruptive" about eating a poptart?


The part where he was shouting out “Look, I made a gun!” and pointing it at other students. You will find that information in accounts from when the incident first occurred.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> The part where he was shouting out “Look, I made a gun!” and pointing it at other students. You will find that information in accounts from when the incident first occurred.


I'm sure he's the only kid that ever shouted in school during lunch or recess.
His biggest mistake was using the "G" word in a PC world.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I'm sure he's the only kid that ever shouted in school during lunch or recess.
> His biggest mistake was using the "G" word in a PC world.


In the classroom actually based on all the reports. Did you miss the part where he had a long history of disruptive classroom behavior?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> In the classroom actually based on all the reports. Did you miss the part where he had a long history of disruptive classroom behavior?


No, I didn't miss any of it.
He pointed a *poptart* at someone.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> No, I didn't miss any of it.
> He pointed a *poptart* at someone.


You’re getting hung up on the pop tart part. You’re missing the point that he caused a classroom disruption. And not for the first time.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> You’re getting hung up on the pop tart part. You’re missing the point that he caused a classroom disruption. And not for the first time.


You've said that three times now.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You've said that three times now.


And, yet, you still don’t seem to get it. 

How many times should a child be allowed to disrupt the classroom before receiving consequences? When, after making necessary accommodations, does his teacher get to say enough?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> And, yet, you still don’t seem to get it.


That's your misconception.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

If the issue had been handled the first time he disrupted the class, he would of known not to disrupt the class again. If a teacher can't make little kids mind without kicking them out of school, then they shouldn't be a teacher. Now, if the school won't let them make the children behave there are bigger problems.

And if the parents, the teacher, and the school administration don't make the children behave, you have modern America.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

muleskinner2 said:


> If the issue had been handled the first time he disrupted the class, he would of known not to disrupt the class again. If a teacher can't make little kids mind without kicking them out of school, then they shouldn't be a teacher. Now, if the school won't let them make the children behave there are bigger problems.
> 
> And if the parents, the teacher, and the school administration don't make the children behave, you have modern America.


I’m curious— exactly what do you think the school should have done to “handle” it the first time?

I am not a big fan of suspension but if the parents aren’t supportive, which from the article about this child I get the impression they aren’t, what consequences do you think would have solved the problem? Sometimes, when you have exhausted all other options, you have to bring out the big guns (no pun intended) to get the parents’ attention.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> What sort of therapy do you give a kid for playing with his food?


Catnip.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Lisa in WA said:


> My youngest was a classic ADHD kid. I’d had enough after fourth grade and pulled her to home school for 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th grades. She opted to go to the local high school but had to take most classes online anyway to get AP classes. Thank goodness for the Calvert School.
> She’s in her last year of law school now so I guess my PITA mother in law was wrong about me “intellectually neglecting” her.


My sister homeschooled her kids too. I was of the same mindset as your PITA MIL. I was wrong too. Those kids (adults now) are some of the best people I know. Very smart too. She made up a song with the order of the presidents from first to last and taught them early on the song. They can name every single president in order from Washington to today. I don't know anyone else who can do that. They also played sports through the church and local area leagues. It ate crow pretty good and wish I had done mine the same way.


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## siberian (Aug 23, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> Catnip.


Now this is funny!!!!!


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Lisa in WA said:


> My youngest was a classic ADHD kid. I’d had enough after fourth grade and pulled her to home school for 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th grades. She opted to go to the local high school but had to take most classes online anyway to get AP classes. Thank goodness for the Calvert School.
> She’s in her last year of law school now so I guess my PITA mother in law was wrong about me “intellectually neglecting” her.


We fought a lot of that attitude, too. I got it the hardest from my sister, who still thinks I made my kids "weird" (I argue it's genetics, not the homeschooling).

My youngest did the same thing your daughter did, started home school in 4th grade and then went back for high school (mostly because he was advancing way beyond my talents, got interested in advanced math and fell hard for computer programming - I know when to admit defeat). My oldest had had enough of school when we took her out in elementary, but luckily the high school she would have gone to had a home-study program so she was able to take the same curriculum as the school kids, just did it at home with weekly check-ins with a teacher. Saved a whole lot of headache all around.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

In second grade I discovered all but about 20 minutes at school where wasted time .
Good Lord what I would’ve gave to have been homeschooled.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

Man it is almost not worth sending our kids to school anymore. I am worried about the phone calls or back lash I will get when my youngest goes to school. He is 100% a mans man and lives for hunting,fishing,riding his quad,ect. I have a feeling somehow it will back fire


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

SLFarmMI said:


> I’m curious— exactly what do you think the school should have done to “handle” it the first time?
> 
> I am not a big fan of suspension but if the parents aren’t supportive, which from the article about this child I get the impression they aren’t, what consequences do you think would have solved the problem? Sometimes, when you have exhausted all other options, you have to bring out the big guns (no pun intended) to get the parents’ attention.


Back in the dark ages when I was in school, it would have been handled the first time with a spanking.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Oregon1986 said:


> Man it is almost not worth sending our kids to school anymore. I am worried about the phone calls or back lash I will get when my youngest goes to school. He is 100% a mans man and lives for hunting,fishing,riding his quad,ect. I have a feeling somehow it will back fire



You will have to teach him to not talk about what he does at home.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

muleskinner2 said:


> Back in the dark ages when I was in school, it would have been handled the first time with a spanking.


You can’t beat the ADHD out of a kid. Nor is it my job to spank your kid. You know what would have worked for the kid in question? The right combination of medication, therapy, behavior modification strategies and/or classroom accommodations.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Oregon1986 said:


> Man it is almost not worth sending our kids to school anymore. I am worried about the phone calls or back lash I will get when my youngest goes to school. He is 100% a mans man and lives for hunting,fishing,riding his quad,ect. I have a feeling somehow it will back fire


Why would you think any of that will backfire? There are plenty of kids in school who love the things he loves, talk about the same at appropriate times and have no issues.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

SLFarmMI said:


> You can’t beat the ADHD out of a kid. Nor is it my job to spank your kid. You know what would have worked for the kid in question? The right combination of medication, therapy, behavior modification strategies and/or classroom accommodations.


I never suggested beating a kid. When I was a kid, it was part of a teachers job to spank kids when they needed it. But it is easer to just give enough dope so they don't disturb the other kids. Then someday when they get out of school, turn eighteen and can't be forced to take their dope anymore they end up in prison. Because some teacher didn't think it was their job to give them a spanking when they were six or seven. The parents aren't there in the classroom when they act up.


Medication, therapy, and behavior modification is the reason we have classrooms full of little monsters who can't be controlled.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

muleskinner2 said:


> I never suggested beating a kid. When I was a kid, it was part of a teachers job to spank kids when they needed it. But it is easer to just give enough dope so they don't disturb the other kids. Then someday when they get out of school, turn eighteen and can't be forced to take their dope anymore they end up in prison. Because some teacher didn't think it was their job to give them a spanking when they were six or seven. The parents aren't there in the classroom when they act up.
> 
> 
> Medication, therapy, and behavior modification is the reason we have classrooms full of little monsters who can't be controlled.


You do realize that ADHD is a condition involving brain chemistry, right? And all the spankings in the world aren’t going to alter your brain chemistry.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Do you have to change the brain chemistry or just get the child to learn what he has to do to get along in the world ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

SLFarmMI said:


> You do realize that ADHD is a condition involving brain chemistry, right? And all the spankings in the world aren’t going to alter your brain chemistry.


 You don’t need to change the brain chemistry just a behavior


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Do you have to change the brain chemistry or just get the child to learn what he has to do to get along in the world ?


Would you advocate punishing the child with poor vision for being unable to see well enough to do the work? Or would you provide him or her with the necessary tools, strategies and accommodations to be able to function in the classroom and in the world?

That’s what medication, therapy, classroom accommodations and behavior modification do for the child with ADHD. They provide him or her with the necessary tools to function. A spanking does not.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I have found the threat of great bodily harm to be enough to motivate proper behavior.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> I have found the threat of great bodily harm to be enough to motivate proper behavior.


Are you a child with untreated ADHD and poor executive function skills? I’m going to go out on a limb and guess no.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Ok I probably am but what’s your point ?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> Ok I probably am but what’s your point ?


The point, as outlined in post 90, is that spankings or threats of “great bodily harm” don’t work to change the behavior of a child with untreated ADHD. 

Medication, therapy, behavior modification and classroom accommodations do because they provide the child with the tools to function.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> That’s what medication, therapy, classroom accommodations and behavior modification do for the child with ADHD. They provide him or her with the necessary tools to function. A spanking does not.


Tell us again about the one at your school that trashed an entire classroom because no one could control them.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> The point, as outlined in post 90, is that spankings or threats of “great bodily harm” don’t work to change the behavior of a child with untreated ADHD.
> 
> Medication, therapy, behavior modification and classroom accommodations do because they provide the child with the tools to function.


I defer to your expertise but when I was young I was diagnosed with hyper-active syndrome. I couldn't concentrate and instead had laser focus on what* I* wanted to focus on. Remember that word? Drs say it was the same thing. I don't know as I am not a Dr or a teacher. 

Today my mom calls it AWDD. Ass Whooping Deficiency Disease. Anyway, it worked for me. Not sure if the two are the same but I was once headed down a wrong path and may have been typing this from prison instead of my house. IMO, there is no set way to treat everyone. Everyone will respond to different stimuli. So for people to say _THIS_ is the only way is just narrow minded. The trick is to find the right solution for the right person.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

mreynolds said:


> I defer to your expertise but when I was young I was diagnosed with hyper-active syndrome. I couldn't concentrate and instead had laser focus on what* I* wanted to focus on. Remember that word? Drs say it was the same thing. I don't know as I am not a Dr or a teacher.
> 
> Today my mom calls it AWDD. Ass Whooping Deficiency Disease. Anyway, it worked for me. Not sure if the two are the same but I was once headed down a wrong path and may have been typing this from prison instead of my house. IMO, there is no set way to treat everyone. Everyone will respond to different stimuli. So for people to say _THIS_ is the only way is just narrow minded. The trick is to find the right solution for the right person.


Two of mine were in your realm but I found that chanelling their energy worked well but I would suggest that there are varying degrees of ADHD and it does require a diagnosis. 

There is a big difference between the parents who excuse any and all bad behaviour, simply because they won't discipline or set boundaries or the parents who can't grasp why their high energy kid acts out when he sits in class all day and comes home to sit in from of the television. 

Teachers seem to get stuck with policies generated by indulgent parents. When we were kids, we were expected to come to school dresssed for the weather because we would go outside at lunch and recess. I drive past 3 schools in town to pick up my mail and if it happens to be -25C or colder, the little darlings are inside, conserving energy. They go home and conserve a bit more energy because mom feels it's too cold out. 

The kid I mentioned that is extremely violent, lives on sugar, junk food, take out and in between, he sits in front of violent games. He'd still be a problem and he still needs medication, contrary to grammy's opinion it needs to be taken daily and not just on school days. I would suggest that properly managed, he would not have been kicked out of public school for beating a teacher and 2 students with a hockey stick in Grade 4.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> The point, as outlined in post 90, is that spankings or threats of “great bodily harm” don’t work to change the behavior of a child with untreated ADHD.
> 
> Medication, therapy, behavior modification and classroom accommodations do because they provide the child with the tools to function.


I defer to your expertise but when I was young I was diagnosed with hyper-active syndrome. I couldn't concentrate and instead had laser focus on what* I* wanted to focus on. Remember that word? Drs say it was the same thing. I don't know as I am not a Dr or a teacher.

Today my mom calls it AWDD. Ass Whooping Deficiency Disease. Anyway, it worked for me. Not sure if the two are the same but I was once headed down a wrong path and may have been typing this from prison instead of my house. IMO, there is no set way to treat everyone. Everyone will respond to different stimuli. So for people to say _THIS_ is the only way is just narrow minded. The trick is to find the right solution for the right person.


wr said:


> Two of mine were in your realm but I found that chanelling their energy worked well but I would suggest that there are varying degrees of ADHD and it does require a diagnosis.
> 
> There is a big difference between the parents who excuse any and all bad behaviour, simply because they won't discipline or set boundaries or the parents who can't grasp why their high energy kid acts out when he sits in class all day and comes home to sit in from of the television.
> 
> ...



And that sounds plausible in many cases. 

Disclaimer: I have been burned by a "teacher" with a vendetta with my step son. When he was in 3rd grade he was acting up in class. 

first...they didn't tell me about it until it was a major problem.

Second... Immediately the *teacher* diagnosed him with ADD and kicked him out of her class. Claimed she wouldn't let him back in until he had pills in him (her words). 

So like a good step father I took him to an MD for testing. He was diagnosed as *NOT* ADD. She refused to let him back into class (she had tenure and the principal was scared of her) until he had pills in him. I took him to a phycologist and three months later I was told he was depressed because he never grieved when his father died. He was only 3 when his father died suddenly from a massive heart attack. Never cried or grieved at all. The Dr. helped him through that without meds. Such a great Dr IMO. I still praise that man to this day. 

So, after the diagnosis and the re-entry into school she wouldn't take him because he didn't have pills in him. She wanted him on Clondine or Adderall or she wouldn't let him back into the classroom. She specifically said *these* meds which is *NOT* in her wheelhouse. I transferred him to another school because of this one witch of a teacher. I really didn't want to do that because it was a smaller school he was excelling in. _SHE_ shaped my sons life by her and the admins lack of authority by their bias. 

He is good though and actually getting married this Saturday. I guess what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. 

Rant over now.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I am reminded by my EMT training. When on a scene, I can not defer to a nurse or even a Dr who for sure has more training than me. Thing is, they are not trained in emergency care like in the side of the road. Legally I can not turn over care of my patient. I can go to jail or be sued. 

Why does a teacher think they can diagnose ADD without the proper education?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Would you advocate *punishing the child with poor vision* for being unable to see well enough to do the work? Or would you provide him or her with the necessary tools, strategies and accommodations to be able to function in the classroom and in the world?
> 
> That’s what *medication*, therapy, classroom accommodations and behavior modification do for the child with ADHD. They provide him or her with the necessary tools to function. A spanking does not.


Leap to the absurd to justify another absurdity.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Back when there was corporal punishment in schools, kids would take guns to school and *not* shoot anyone.

Then they decided it's better to drug them and use therapy and "behavior modification".

How's that working out so far?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

mreynolds said:


> I defer to your expertise but when I was young I was diagnosed with hyper-active syndrome. I couldn't concentrate and instead had laser focus on what* I* wanted to focus on. Remember that word? Drs say it was the same thing. I don't know as I am not a Dr or a teacher.
> 
> Today my mom calls it AWDD. Ass Whooping Deficiency Disease. Anyway, it worked for me. Not sure if the two are the same but I was once headed down a wrong path and may have been typing this from prison instead of my house. IMO, there is no set way to treat everyone. Everyone will respond to different stimuli. So for people to say _THIS_ is the only way is just narrow minded. The trick is to find the right solution for the right person.
> 
> ...


I do understand because I went through similar with my youngest. He had a young, enthusiastic teacher who felt that almost evry kid would beneifit from being medicated and to make matters worse, she had most of his being kept in their desks recess, lunch and phys ed on most days, until all their parents understood her point. 

Thankfully, we lived in a small town and all used the same doctor, who was a gruff old guy that believed that there is a time and place for medication but every kid in one class required it. After seeing every kid in her class for the same reason, he called her and explained the implications of diagnosing without a medical degree and strongly suggested that all but one of his patients would benefit from being taken off classroom suspensions and being allowed to get a bit of exercise and fresh air. 

I still believe there are kids that benefit from medication but that's a decision made between parents and their doctor.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

SLFarmMI said:


> You do realize that ADHD is a condition involving brain chemistry, right? And all the spankings in the world aren’t going to alter your brain chemistry.


Did this particular child have ADHD, or does every kid who acts up in class have ADHD. He was playing with his food. Should he be put on drugs for that?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Tell us again about the one at your school that trashed an entire classroom because no one could control them.


Different condition, different situation. Plus you can not physically restrain a student who is not causing bodily harm to him or herself or other students. Trashing a classroom does not fit those requirements. Really, I am shocked that you, as the self-proclaimed expert on all things everywhere, didn’t know that.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

muleskinner2 said:


> Did this particular child have ADHD, or does every kid who acts up in class have ADHD. He was playing with his food. Should he be put on drugs for that?


Yes, he has ADHD, as stated in the articles about the situation. He was doing more than playing with his food. He was disrupting the classroom. 

I do find it interesting that, of all the things I listed, you only mention medication. 

As I have said previously, I am not a fan of suspension but sometimes you need to use them to wake parents up. No one is saying you must use medication, but do something to equip your kid with the tools he or she needs to get through life as a person with ADHD.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

I always wonder what those noting corporal punishment or spanking a disruptive child would suggest when the spankings don't seem to be working...


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

doozie said:


> I always wonder what those noting corporal punishment or spanking a disruptive child would suggest when the spankings don't seem to be working...


It worked when I was a kid. Every time. Maybe kids are different now.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

SLFarmMI said:


> The point, as outlined in post 90, is that spankings or threats of “great bodily harm” don’t work to change the behavior of a child with untreated ADHD.
> 
> Medication, therapy, behavior modification and classroom accommodations do because they provide the child with the tools to function.


lol that’s not true.
Three times I have greatly change the behavior of a child diagnosed ADHD with just a tiny bit of motivation. 
I suspect the way I am managed to change his behavior was to get his full and undivided attention.
No I would not want to teach this child everything all day long in a classroom setting but I could teach him one thing in just a few moments of his undivided attention. 
I suspect this method is not available to school teachers but I think it should be on important things. Safety matters would be the type of thing I have in mind.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

doozie said:


> I always wonder what those noting corporal punishment or spanking a disruptive child would suggest when the spankings don't seem to be working...


Lol Spanking seldom works when your heart isn’t in it.
Or perhaps a spanking is insufficient motivation


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Different condition, different situation.


Still a total lack of control.



SLFarmMI said:


> He was doing more than playing with his food. He was disrupting the classroom.


So was the one in the example I used.



doozie said:


> I always wonder what those noting corporal punishment or spanking a disruptive child would suggest when the spankings don't seem to be working...


We don't know they "don't seem to be working" since it's not being done.
We only know these problems didn't used to be so common.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> Different condition, different situation. Plus you can not physically restrain a student who is not causing bodily harm to him or herself or other students. Trashing a classroom does not fit those requirements. Really, I am shocked that you, as the self-proclaimed expert on all things everywhere, didn’t know that.


Why in the world would a child be allowed to trash a school room or much of anything else ? Seems expensive when budgets are all ways being cried about. 

How does being allowed to do such things as trashing a school room fit into the therapy of teaching of a child to NOT do such things. 

How does allowing the child to trash a school room teach the rest of the kids proper behavior ? Just act a bit “abnormal” and life is all ok ?

Minor suspensions at home is just a play day. Parents are probably at work. Perhaps their not doing their duty at home to start with. Why can’t the caregivers and the child be held accountable and in a place that neither enjoys or can afford with ease ?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I just have to shake my head about the aggression shown to a teacher that deals with this issue every.single.day. She knows more about how things work now, in the 21st century. The "back in the day" stories just can't cut it in the real world now. 

It's insane to think that someone that reads an article knows more than an educated, educator. Absolutely Crazy. Carry on...


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Why in the world would a child be allowed to trash a school room or much of anything else ? Seems expensive when budgets are all ways being cried about.
> 
> How does being allowed to do such things as trashing a school room fit into the therapy of teaching of a child to NOT do such things.
> 
> ...


#1. What would you suggest school personnel do during theses times when an enraged student is trashing the room? Please note: you may not physically restrain a student unless that student is causing bodily harm to self or other students. You also may not restrain unless you have gone through the proper training. 

#2. Schools do not provide therapy. Not our role and there’s no funding for it anyway. It is the parents’ job to secure therapy and, if they choose not to, then what?

#3. See #1

#4. As I have said, I am no fan of suspension but sometimes you have to in order to get the parents’ attention. We use it sparingly because we face sanctions if we do too many.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> I just have to shake my head about the aggression shown to a teacher that deals with this issue every.single.day. She knows more about how things work now, in the 21st century. The "back in the day" stories just can't cut it in the real world now.
> 
> It's insane to think that someone that reads an article knows more than an educated, educator. Absolutely Crazy. Carry on...


Thanks IP. 

It’s unfortunately all too common for people to think they know more about the way school and education work than those who are actually there every day. We are, after all, the enemy.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Just seems to me that she is locked into a one size fits all for any child that acts up. Why take away a child's ability to be a child when they are learning how to be themselves? What happened to being "unique" instead of just popping a pill when you feel sad/angry/happy/mischievous/prankish? And all this coming from a person that tells us that we should children to decide what gender they are, that advice I cannot trust.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

I was reading a story to the 5th grade and all my classmates loved it and were laughing.
The teacher a big 6 foot 4 guy suddenly became enraged. I don't know why.
He dragged me to the teachers room and beat me with a chair back until my A was black. Literally.
I wouldn't let him see how much it hurt.
Another teacher witnessed the entire thing.
My mother had no idea what to do so nothing was done. Poor thing.
In my case you could beat me to death and it would have no meaningful effect on my behavior.
Other children that grow up hard would be the same.
Beating is not a reliable behavior modifier.
Logic and the time to offer it would work wonders in helping a child grow as a person.
But who really takes the time?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> It’s unfortunately all too common for people to *think they know more* about the way school and education work than those who are actually there every day. We are, after all, the enemy.


We see the results of the failed policies, and hear the same old excuses.



SLFarmMI said:


> Not our role and there’s no funding for it anyway.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> I just have to shake my head about the aggression shown to a teacher that deals with this issue every.single.day. She knows more about how things work now, in the 21st century. The "back in the day" stories just can't cut it in the real world now.
> 
> It's insane to think that someone that reads an article knows more than an educated, educator. Absolutely Crazy. Carry on...


 Why? Why would you think that? Just because somebody’s been educated on something doesn’t mean that somebody that hasn’t gone to the approved schools and accredited courses doesn’t know something.
Not to mention that other forms of teaching would apply. 
What I don’t understand is why everybody seems to think that attention deficit disorder means unaccountable.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

HDRider said:


> It worked when I was a kid. Every time. Maybe kids are different now.


Funny you mention "every time"...think about it.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Shine said:


> Just seems to me that she is locked into a one size fits all for any child that acts up. Why take away a child's ability to be a child when they are learning how to be themselves? What happened to being "unique" instead of just popping a pill when you feel sad/angry/happy/mischievous/prankish? And all this coming from a person that tells us that we should children to decide what gender they are, that advice I cannot trust.


Then you’re missing the point because absolutely nowhere did I advocate not letting children be themselves. Absolutely nowhere did I advocate a “one size fits all” approach to anything. If you read back, I mentioned several things that could have been used for the child in the pop tart incident.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Still a total lack of control.
> 
> 
> So was the one in the example I used.
> ...


That wasn't my point...what would you suggest be done if a child is constantly being spanked with no change in behavior?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SRSLADE said:


> I was reading a story to the 5th grade and all my classmates loved it and were laughing.
> The teacher a big 6 foot 4 guy suddenly became enraged. I don't know why.
> He dragged me to the teachers room and beat me with a chair back until my A was black. Literally.
> I wouldn't let him see how much it hurt.
> ...


Except many people just think corporal punishment is just a willy nilly random beating. When I got one I got a lecture before and after and the why I got it. Also understood how not to get another one for that same thing because it was outlined out to me in detail.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

doozie said:


> That wasn't my point...what would you suggest be done if a child is constantly being spanked with no change in behavior?


 Better spanking


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Better spanking


Really, hit em harder?!?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

SRSLADE said:


> I was reading a story to the 5th grade and all my classmates loved it and were laughing.
> The teacher a big 6 foot 4 guy suddenly became enraged. I don't know why.
> He dragged me to the teachers room and beat me with a chair back until my A was black. Literally.
> I wouldn't let him see how much it hurt.
> ...


I’m sorry that happened to you. It never should have.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

doozie said:


> *That wasn't my point*...what would you suggest be done if a child is constantly being spanked with no change in behavior?


My point has nothing to do with yours.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

doozie said:


> Really, hit em harder?!?


Is that what you would do ?


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> Except many people just think corporal punishment is just a willy nilly random beating. When I got one I got a lecture before and after and the why I got it. Also understood how not to get another one for that same thing because it was outlined out to me in detail.


Did you beat your kids? I didn't, but they knew when I was serious and all I did was talk.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

SRSLADE said:


> I was reading a story to the 5th grade and all my classmates loved it and were laughing.
> The teacher a big 6 foot 4 guy suddenly became enraged. I don't know why.
> He dragged me to the teachers room and beat me with a chair back until my A was black. Literally.
> I wouldn't let him see how much it hurt.
> ...


 And people wonder why we don’t trust teachers. 
How long did it take to get your revenge?


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> My point has nothing to do with yours.


And still no suggestions offered up...


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Is that what you would do ?


No, if spanking isn't effective, then it isn't effective.
What is better spanking? Do go on...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

doozie said:


> And still *no suggestions* offered up...


That's not true.
I just didn't answer your particular questions.
They never end.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

doozie said:


> And still no suggestions offered up...


Don't know... My children only got one spanking of three swats each on the bare backside [two different situations] and a promise that it would happen again if anything similar happened again. They grew up to be well adjusted, respectful and loving young men.

ETA: Loving as in caring and compassionate towards others so I do not have to reply to inappropriate comments.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Like many things you need to belive in it. I can’t explain to you Why a given round of spanking wasn’t effective without you explaining to me what you did. It’s like asking me why a recipe failed without even telling me what you tried to make.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> And people wonder why we don’t trust teachers.
> How long did it take to get your revenge?


I see him now and then.
He's now an old man and eternal justice is not far off.
I spend no part of my life thinking of him.
May he rot in hell.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Like many things you need to belive in it. I can’t explain to you Why a given round of spanking wasn’t effective without you explaining to me what you did. It’s like asking me why a recipe failed without even telling me what you tried to make.


so....what is better spanking exactly?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

SLFarmMI said:


> #1. What would you suggest school personnel do during theses times when an enraged student is trashing the room? Please note: you may not physically restrain a student unless that student is causing bodily harm to self or other students. You also may not restrain unless you have gone through the proper training.
> 
> #2. Schools do not provide therapy. Not our role and there’s no funding for it anyway. It is the parents’ job to secure therapy and, if they choose not to, then what?
> 
> ...


Waiting until a student has hurt themselves while trashing a room is irresponsible at best. Also a waste of taxpayers money, school teaching time, poor example for the other student’s and well the list could go on. 

Why are the teachers not properly trained to handle the situations and students in the school ?

I realize some of this is being handled behind the cover of rules of the school, or legal issues. All of which can be resolved if its desired. Apparently its not. 

Since the schools do not and probably should not provide therapy then it seems that the school should not be allowed to be involved with students that they can not handle. Keep them OUT of the school and away from teachers and other students for everyone’s safety and benefit once they show a reason. What to do with them? Clearly not the schools problem.

Seems anyone that has a child in a school where there is a concern of a likely chance of harm to them in such situations and they allow it to continue is irresponsible at best. Yes I understand that many parents are irresponsible in a variety of ways. Still does not make it right. 

I do realize that the teachers are limited in what they are allowed to do, so as to retain their jobs. The teachers do have the ability to change things. Seems that strikes and unions have no problem with wage issues, and being successful at it. Perhaps some other issues actually regarding students need to be of a concern also. No wonder private schools are of such interest. 

Please keep in mind that all of these comments are toward schools and teachers in general, not anyone in particular.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SRSLADE said:


> Did you beat your kids? I didn't, but they knew when I was serious and all I did was talk.


I never beat my kids. I did do corporal punishment twice with the daughter, once with the one son and never with the other. Talking works with the oldest and always has. Talking never worked with the daughter but she was only that bad twice. Like potential headed to jail bad. My youngest son once is all it took. Like I said earlier, once size never fits all. None are in jail and they do just fine. I also *never* yell or scream. That is worse to me than anything. So many times I see parents in public that yell and threaten but never do anything. I always stayed calm and they understood I mean business. Slow and calm wins out every time.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

muleskinner2 said:


> Did this particular child have ADHD, or does every kid who acts up in class have ADHD. He was playing with his food. Should he be put on drugs for that?


I believe that it's been stated that there were numerous incidents of the child acting out but it does sound much more dramatic if a kid is kicked out of class for something seems trivial put parents have a habit of minimizing incidents as well.

If you talked to the Grandma who's little monster that beat a teacher and a couple kids with a hockey stick, she'd gladly tell you that he had a rough start, is misunderstood and if that teacher hadn't tried to take the hockey stick away from him for beating a couple students, she wouldn't have ended up with a black eye and stitches. She figues the students that ended up in ER were obviously picking on him or he would have taken his rage out on something else. 

I've dealt with her sweet little guy as well and after I restrained him when he kicking, biting and scratching, he tried to stab me with a steak knife. She felt that I made him feel cornered/trapped when I stopped him from physically assaulting me. 

His most recent events involve breaking another child's arm at recess, injuring another child by smashing his iPad across his face and kicking a male teacher in the groin and when I her why this was happening, she explained that 'he's a sweet kid but people just don't treat him right.'

Grandma understands he needs medication but instead of using it as prescribed, she feels he only needs it the mornings she remembers and only on school days, none on weekends, Christmas and Easter breaks or summer vacation. Just to round things out, she feeds him sugary cereal for breakfast, packaged food at lunch, takeout for supper and an endless supply of candy in between. 

Because he was born with crack in his system, Grandma makes sure he has child advocate, children's services, a team of child psychologists and if you think he's an isolated example, she's raising four more exactly the same way. 

The problem, as I see it, is that teachers are stuck cleaning up behind parents that should not have kids.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

wr said:


> The problem, as I see it, is that teachers are stuck cleaning up behind parents that should not have kids.


The only thing that I would change in your reply is that I would add the word "some" before the word "parents" as evidenced from what others have provided in this thread. Otherwise, I cannot understand why teachers have our most treasured resource to shape, guide and form and are held to such lofty expectations with meager amounts of authority and tons of suspicion.

ETA: No... I am not a perfect parent and I am sure that some of my bad habits rubbed off of me onto them. When there were reports of misbehavior at school delivered to me, I went to school to talk about what actually happened and if there was something that seemed to be even slightly amiss, I would let the school know that I would talk to my kids to move forward properly. Twice resulted in punishment which seemed to solve the problem immediately and that solution was evident when there was no obvious continuation of that type of behavior.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

doozie said:


> Really, hit em harder?!?


Good grief it’s scary that is where your mind went .


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

wr said:


> I believe that it's been stated that there were numerous incidents of the child acting out but it does sound much more dramatic if a kid is kicked out of class for something seems trivial put parents have a habit of minimizing incidents as well.
> 
> If you talked to the Grandma who's little monster that beat a teacher and a couple kids with a hockey stick, she'd gladly tell you that he had a rough start, is misunderstood and if that teacher hadn't tried to take the hockey stick away from him for beating a couple students, she wouldn't have ended up with a black eye and stitches. She figues the students that ended up in ER were obviously picking on him or he would have taken his rage out on something else.
> 
> ...


 What a great example of why parents of adults that can’t raise children shouldn’t raise the grandchildren!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

SRSLADE said:


> I see him now and then.
> He's now an old man and eternal justice is not far off.
> I spend no part of my life thinking of him.
> May he rot in hell.


Eternal justice may be waiting on you to visit him and beat the snot out of him.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

doozie said:


> so....what is better spanking exactly?


Lol You quote me saying that you need to tell me what you’re doing so I can tell you what’s wrong with it and then Repeat same question?
You still haven’t told me what’s wrong with the spanking. I still can’t answer.
For some insight into proper spanking procedure you might want to read MReynolds post on the subject .


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> I just have to shake my head about the aggression shown to a teacher that deals with this issue every.single.day. She knows more about how things work now, in the 21st century. The "back in the day" stories just can't cut it in the real world now.
> 
> It's insane to think that someone that reads an article knows more than an educated, educator. Absolutely Crazy. Carry on...


Cause it ain't working.
Cause they defend what ain't working.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

doozie said:


> Funny you mention "every time"...think about it.


I did.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Thanks IP.
> 
> It’s unfortunately all too common for people to think they know more about the way school and education work than those who are actually there every day. We are, after all, the enemy.


No, it is not because "we" know better. But, we see a forest where you see a tree.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Shine said:


> Just seems to me that she is locked into a one size fits all for any child that acts up. Why take away a child's ability to be a child when they are learning how to be themselves? What happened to being "unique" instead of just popping a pill when you feel sad/angry/happy/mischievous/prankish? And all this coming from a person that tells us that we should children to decide what gender they are, that advice I cannot trust.


Medicating the miscreant is today's whooping. Simple discipline seemed to work better. We had fewer school shootings before we started medicating undesirable behavior.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Cause it ain't working.
> Cause they defend what ain't working.


How exactly, given today's rules and regulations, would you do it? Detail please. The educated educator has detailed how she currently runs her classroom using today's standards, not those of 30-40-50 years ago. Thanks.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> I was reading a story to the 5th grade and all my classmates loved it and were laughing.
> The teacher a big 6 foot 4 guy suddenly became enraged. I don't know why.
> He dragged me to the teachers room and beat me with a chair back until my A was black. Literally.
> I wouldn't let him see how much it hurt.
> ...


Too few take the time.

The only nail that needs the hammer is the one not driven down already.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> No, it is not because "we" know better. But, we see a forest where you see a tree.


So amusing. A current, and I believe long term, teacher doesn't know her job as well as a layman with no education background. Carry on.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It’s a lot like a prison and I certainly felt that way when I was a kid.
But you don’t leave the inmates in charge of the prison and Jailers Report to their supervisors too.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> How exactly, given today's rules and regulations, would you do it? Detail please. The educated educator has detailed how she currently runs her classroom using today's standards, not those of 30-40-50 years ago. Thanks.


Sounds like the "rules and regulations" are part of the problem. Why put bad regs in place? Pull them up by the roots, and put something in place that works.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> So amusing. A current, and I believe long term, teacher doesn't know her job as well as a layman with no education background. Carry on.


She is just following your beloved rules.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> So amusing. A current, and I believe long term, teacher doesn't know her job as well as a layman with no education background. Carry on.


 You seem surprised.
Teachers by nature are of a certain mindset and Have been trained to do things a certain way there’s no reason others can’t have insights in fact with different viewpoints it is to be expected.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Sounds like the "rules and regulations" are part of the problem. Why put bad regs in place? Pull them up by the roots, and put something in place that works.


What are you doing to change said rules and regulations? Do you know the rules and regs that are in place now? That should be your start point, correct? Details. Please.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> She is just following your beloved rules.


And there it is. Thank you.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> What are you doing to change said rules and regulations? Do you know the rules and regs that are in place now? That should be your start point, correct? Details. Please.


My kids were my doings. I control me. I don't control you.

You do what works for you. I do what works for me. 

Fix what does not work.

Between bad parenting, poor schooling and out of control policemen, we are screwed.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> My kids were my doings. I control me. I don't control you.
> 
> You do what works for you. I do what works for me.
> 
> ...


So you say. You have no problem complaining vehemently and advising a current educator what she is doing is "wrong", but are doing nothing to change the situation. Carry on, I understand completely now.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> So you say. You have no problem complaining vehemently and advising a current educator what she is doing is "wrong", but are doing nothing to change the situation. Carry on, I understand completely now.


I "complain" about lots of things, and my opinion is the only "fix" I have on most of them. I deal directly with my life, and no else.

The first step to correcting anything is to see a problem.

You and her have not even taken the first step.

For you:
_God grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
As it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
If I surrender to His Will;
So that I may be reasonably happy in this life
And supremely happy with Him
Forever and ever in the next.

Amen_


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> So amusing. A current, and I believe long term, teacher doesn't know her job as well as a layman with no education background. Carry on.


What makes you think someone has no education background ?
I’ve never met anyone without any education. Most of the people I’ve met in this country have gone through this countrys formal educational experience. The students know far more about the educational experience than the teachers is the same logic you are using.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol You quote me saying that you need to tell me what you’re doing so I can tell you what’s wrong with it and then Repeat same question?
> You still haven’t told me what’s wrong with the spanking. I still can’t answer.
> For some insight into proper spanking procedure you might want to read MReynolds post on the subject .


Nice, you come up with the concept of "better spanking" without describing what that would be exactly.
What was I to think?

The original question was what is to be done if it's clear that spanking is having no effect on changing the behavior if you'll recall.
What then?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

doozie said:


> Nice, you come up with the concept of "better spanking" without describing what that would be exactly.
> What was I to think?
> 
> The original question was what is to be done if it's clear that spanking is having no effect on changing the behavior if you'll recall.
> What then?


It’s not a concept it was an instruction. 
How Do you expect me to instruct you on how to improve your spanking if you wont tell me how you’re doing it?


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> What a great example of why parents of adults that can’t raise children shouldn’t raise the grandchildren!


That's not what the government thinks. It's federally mandated that Child Protective Services tries to find a relative, usually ends up being a grandparent, to give the child to before placing them in long-term foster homes. 
BTW: having worked for CPS, I agree with you. Behaviors are passed down like genes.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

So the official government solution to a problem Is just give the kids to the people that created the problem in the first place ? Ya really got a wonder about that.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

doozie said:


> Nice, you come up with the concept of "better spanking" without describing what that would be exactly.
> What was I to think?
> 
> The original question was what is to be done if it's clear that spanking is having no effect on changing the behavior if you'll recall.
> What then?


So it’s very simple tell me how you go about spanking a child and I will tell you how to improve the results. 

Perhaps Since you keep repeating yourself I’m just not understanding what you’re saying but I am trying to be very clear.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> It’s not a concept it was an instruction.
> How Do you expect me to instruct you on how to improve your spanking if you wont tell me how you’re doing it?


I thought of better ways to guide my children without resorting to humiliating my children with a spanking. What a concept!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> The educated educator has detailed how she currently runs her classroom using today's standards, not those of 30-40-50 years ago. Thanks.


It's not working nearly as well as it did 50 years ago.
I'm not sure why you want to pretend that hasn't been explained more than once.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

doozie said:


> I thought of better ways to guide my children without resorting to humiliating my children with a spanking. What a concept!


 What were they?


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> What were they?


Just for starters, Lead by example, one example, if your child hits another, don't respond by hitting your child. 
You'll probably look foolish trying to make a point about not hitting others....


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

doozie said:


> Just for starters, Lead by example, one example, if your child hits another, don't respond by hitting your child.
> You'll probably look foolish trying to make a point about not hitting others....


 That really doesn’t make any sense.
Were you hitting your child before he hit the other child?
What kind of an example is that to set anyway?


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> That really doesn’t make any sense.
> Were you hitting your child before he hit the other child?
> What kind of an example is that to set anyway?


It makes perfect sense as stated...and what kind of example does your "better spanking" set?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Medicating the miscreant is today's whooping. Simple discipline seemed to work better. We had fewer school shootings before we started medicating undesirable behavior.



When a wolf cub or bear cub gets out of line they get nipped or swatted. They learn what not to do. They don't give them a pill. Millions of years of biology and we think we know better now. At the same time they give them love and care.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> What a great example of why parents of adults that can’t raise children shouldn’t raise the grandchildren!


She's a step parent of the first generation failure and came into her life when the first generation was an adult.

When she told me she was going to take on the first crack baby, I suggested that insisting their mother got her tubes tied before before leaving hospital and the rehab, failed rehab, return to hooking, reproducing cycle happened again. 

She's a great lady with a kind heart who didn't want to see the kids separated in foster care and none would ever be adopted. Each one comes with unique problems that she feels a loving home can conquer. 

I would suggest she's doing just as well as the system would but I can also offer up countless examples of parents who feel their kids are above the rules or deny theirs would ever do anything wrong and will fight any discipline beyond the school board.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

This has now exceeded GC limits.


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