# I was just wondeing if anyone here thinks about



## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

the reason they are trying to prepare for the worst scenario and if so, did 9/11/2001 make them see what we face? 
I also wonder if how many believe the governments story about what happened on 9/11?

Godspeed

Ranger


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

9/11 doesn't have much to do with my reasons for prepping. I prep because history tells me that bad things happen and I think living unprepared is dumb.
My first preps are for natural disasters. 2nd for economical collapse. Finally for government collapse and/ or long term lawlessness and chaos.
9/11 however does help give me ideas on how to prep. For example, on that day 95 shut down and people working in DC (like I am now) couldn't get home / out of DC by plane, train, or automobile; so my get home bag includes everything I need to walk the 80+ miles home.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

gweny, I haven't been to N. Y. probably 30 years now, and I was never in New York City. You are the first person that I have heard from that lives in or does work in New York, and I'd give nearly anything to know what the people that were in the city on 9/11 thinks about the governments stories about what happened. 
I hadn't forgot it but I had pretty much buried it because I don't see the truth ever coming out but this computer has been acting but the last few days and last night I was looking at some u-tube videos of Alaskan saw mills when out of no where a video of an engineering professor started running and that was what he was talking about and it was about like ripping stitches open in a bad cut. 
It was weird because I didn't start it, and I couldn't stop it either. I just punched out of everything I had on the screen and when I got down to the blank screen it still kept talking. 
It wouldn't even let me turn the computer off so I finally just unplugged it. I set here thinking about the computer to start with and then I went back to the morning of 9/11and that's when I made the OP. 
As I have said on many post here, I finished welding school before I turned 17 and that was 42 years ago, and I remember shortly after 9/11 seeing some old original picture of the towers as they were being built. 
A couple of the picture showed the size of the columns and beams with men standing beside them and it had one picture of a man actually walking on the bottom web of an I-beam and it was three feet taller than the man was. 
One picture showed a man working right by an I-beam and the thickness of the web was thicker than the mans forearm was and he was a little man. 
I have worked on that size iron before and in the winters, you have to preheat the beams that large until the steel will melt a 165 degree heat stick, which is something like a large crayon that melts at a certain temperature.
It takes 8 men with what is called a rosebud torches about 8 hours to get a uniform 165 degrees all around that size beam. 
No one on God's Green Earth can make me believe that a jet fuel fire ever heated those size columns and beams enough to drop any of the three building period. Must less in a few minutes. 
Those building were demoed period. There isn't any two ways about it. 
Well I am going to move on. 

Godspeed

Ranger


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

BadFordRanger said:


> gweny, I haven't been to N. Y. probably 30 years now, and I was never in New York City. You are the first person that I have heard from that lives in or does work in New York, and I'd give nearly anything to know what the people that were in the city on 9/11 thinks about the governments stories about what happened.
> I hadn't forgot it but I had pretty much buried it because I don't see the truth ever coming out but this computer has been acting but the last few days and last night I was looking at some u-tube videos of Alaskan saw mills when out of no where a video of an engineering professor started running and that was what he was talking about and it was about like ripping stitches open in a bad cut.
> It was weird because I didn't start it, and I couldn't stop it either. I just punched out of everything I had on the screen and when I got down to the blank screen it still kept talking.
> It wouldn't even let me turn the computer off so I finally just unplugged it. I set here thinking about the computer to start with and then I went back to the morning of 9/11and that's when I made the OP.
> ...


I'll get into more detail later if needed but. . .

You may know some about metal but you clearly don't know much about building demo and explosives. Let's just say it ain't like they show in the movies where the hero, or bad guy, runs up and sticks a charge about the size of your hand and blows a hole the size of a pickup in a reenforced concrete wall.

The towers failed due to 1) the damage from the aircraft strike, 2) the weakening of the steel supports from the fire from the jet fuel and the flammable materials in the offices and 3) the building's design.

If you take the time to crunch the numbers you will see just the impact from the airliner on the building was HUGE. You can find the speed at impact, (calculated using the distance traveled from frame to frame in the video) and the approximate weight then put them into the standard E(k)=1/2mv^2. The aircraft took out sections of supports plus opened a hole which provided air for the fire to burn.

If you take the time to research you will find that burning gets plenty hot to make steel become elastic.

And if you research how the WTC was built you will see it used an 'exoskeleton' of steel to hang the ends of the floor supports on. The fire below caused the floor supports became elastic the started to sag which caused them to pull loose from the exoskeleton. Once enough had pulled loose the floor fell onto the already damaged floor below it. That would have been enough to cause that floor to fail and fall to the one below it. Now you have two floors worth of weight falling 8-12 feet onto the third floor. Even if that third floor had not been damaged, and it was, there is very little chance it could have withstood that kind of force, it didn't; it failed. At that point you have THREE floors worth of weight falling 8-12 feet onto the next floor. At that point it was like a falling chain.

Now why did if fall straight down? Again due to the building's design. You have the central column of supports inside and the exoskeleton on the outside guiding the floors as they fall. And as enough floors failed there were no longer anything to support them and they would fail.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Some things you can prepare for, others you can't. 

I was in England when the Twin Towers were hit. It took me almost a week to get home. I will never forget flying into LAX (couldn't get a flight to Phoenix) and listening to my footsteps echo in the hallway. No way to prepare for that!

Living in an area that has been evacuated for forest fires, I can prepare for that, but overall, I'm prepared to hunker down right here. I don't think everyone can prepare for every event, just do the best they can.

As far as the opinion on the Twin towers being demoed - I won't even go there.


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## hurryiml8 (Apr 15, 2009)

I got the feeling I needed to prep about 6 or 7 years ago. The twin towers had nothing to do with it. I don't stock up huge supplies of stuff, but I do garden more than I ever thought I would. I also never thought I could butcher chickens, much less fuzzy little rabbits, but when I felt the push to do it I did. We buy very little from grocery stores anymore. I don't know why I live this way, I just do it. 
We may never know the truth about 9-11, but nothing surprises me anymore.


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

9/11 has nothing to do with my prepping. It didn't "teach" me anything I didn't already know. I feel no more or less safe then I did on 9/1/01.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Who knows what is going to fall apart at the seems . . . . . . . .But since I am not ready to willingly check out, It seems like a pretty good idea to have stuff in the pantry to put into my belly.

And I am happy to say I will not be standing in my door way waiting for FEMA to come save the day..
Actually I will dread ever hearing that the FEMA num-nuts are any where close by.


I too believe that 911 was a monster scam..........


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

Also.. the heat caused the concrete to explode.
All of the wee air bubbles expanded at a tremendous rate and just blew it apart.
Buildings are a team.. the concrete helps support the steel and steel supports the concrete.
When both weaken you have structure failure.

And as far as prepping.. it is not for an event, it is a way of life.
To not be prepared is folly of the highest order.

To have 3 days of food in your house is bone stupid.

To not have an idea of where and how to get clean drinking water is just begging to poop yourself to death.

For millennia, ages, epochs, for ALL of human history preceding this particular era, people were able to survive.
If not, we would not be here now.

This weakness, this folly, is a new construct.
It's weird.


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## calliemoonbeam (Aug 7, 2007)

I've always prepped, it's just a way of life. Living in Oklahoma, you learn to be prepared for pretty much anything weather-wise with severe thunderstorms, tornados, baseball sized hail, prairie fires, droughts, floods, and now we have earthquakes on top of it, lol. I'm sure I'm forgetting something!

Prepping has also helped me get through several rough periods in my life caused by divorce, job loss, illness, etc. The best example was about 8 years ago. I had some severe health problems and wasn't able to work for almost a year. I was able to live on my preps during that time, with only occasionally spending $20 or so on fresh fruits, dairy, etc. I could have even done without that, but just wanted a taste of fresh now and then. And that was when I was still living in the city.

After I got well and was able to work again, I bought my place in the country and have increased my preps and self-sufficiency quotient even more. It was a way of life for my grandparents, and with the world situation the way it is I believe it is even more important nowadays to try to prepare for rough times ahead and to be able to function without all the technology that has taken over in the last 20-30 years. It's nice while we have it, but I don't depend on it (and especially not the government) saving my life in a SHTF situation. That's just common sense to me. :shrug: But then, that's one commodity that seems to be sadly lacking these days.


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## TerriLynn (Oct 10, 2009)

I try to be prepared for personal financial crisis, should we ever have one.

The first year we were married FIL had a stroke and died, (22 years ago) had medical bills, and a funeral to pay for, not to mention that but my husband was an only child and quit an apprenticeship at a tool and die shop to stay home and care for his dad so he wouldn't have to put him in a nursing home.

We lived on what I made (not much) at my job, husband was trying to take over the farm on a limited basis and care for his dad. 6 mo's later his dad died, so we had a large amount of debt to deal with and not much income. 

That first winter we lived on 120lbs of chicken leg/thighs I had gotten on sale and froze, I also bought and froze a bushel of broccoli, and a bushel of cauliflower. I had put in a small garden and tried my hand at canning tomatoes. There were also some fruit trees here and I canned pears and applesauce. That's it, that's all we ate for almost a whole year.

I never want to be put in that position again!! I keep a very well stocked pantry and since then there have been 3 times through the years where money has been so tight that we have eaten the pantry down to almost nothing. I have always been so thankful that no matter what else was going on we can eat well, and even in the toughest times have a variety of things to choose from.

A full belly makes most any crisis seem more manageable.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

My urge to prep goes way back before 9/11 to Y2K. None of us knew what would happen when all the computers in the world didn't have another year to turn over. It made me think about how our life would be impacted: ATMs wouldn't work; credit card machines wouldn't work; public utilities might not be able to provide electricity for lights and heat and water; our home phone might not work (we didn't have cell phones); computers used in transportation might stop working - which would mean no truck deliveries to grocery stores, cars, trains, buses, or airplanes.

Nothing ended up happening when the century turned, but it made me realize that I needed to do better to provide for our family in the event that any unpleasant event occured. In the fall of '99 I stocked up on water and bought a Berkey, bought a ton of food, diapers (my kids were small), feminine products, some OTC meds (long before I got serious enough to buy Rx meds online), rigged out an extensive first aid kit, gassed up our cars and had some extra gas cans filled, made sure we had plenty of flashlights/batteries and candles, and had some extra wood delivered for our wood stove (this was long before we lived on the farm with our own trees). I went to bed on New Year's Eve with a peaceful mind, knowing that when I woke up the next morning I was ready for whatever had happened.

And that was the start of a complete change of our way of life. Until then I had always just skipped along, knowing I could stop by the store or flip on the light switch. Our prepping came in very handy when my husband lost his job in 2003 - we used our savings to pay the mortgage, and lived off of the extensive food we had stored. If we'd been living the way we did before Y2K we would have lost our house.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I never thought of this style of living as "prepping" until I found this board a few years ago. It's a lifestyle that I grew up with. My parents lived the way their parents taught them, and my grandparents lived the way they grew up. I guess you could say I was raised very old fashion. We grew our own food and stored enough to last until the next harvest. We always had 2 years worth of food put up in case of a bad year when the harvest was ruined. We raised our own meat, had a milk cow, even had horses. My first "car" was a shetland pony. lol 

I got away from that lifestyle for a while when I first left home. It didn't take me long to start feeling "lost" when I opened the panty and only had a month or two of food in there. 

To this day I'm not very enlightened on many modern things. I have no idea what a ipod is, and a lot of other things. Heck, I've never seen a "smart phone" let alone know how to use one.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Just for the record... Regarding 9-11 - you cannot get a symmetrical result from asymmetrical causes. Especially 3 times on one day. The lock for me - ? - NIST admitted that with WTC-7, during collapse, the roof line progressed downwards at free fall speeds for 2.5 seconds - explain where those 8 floors worth of resistance went. 8 floors worth of distance - 0 resistance.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

Jim-mi, we are a lot alike in our way of thinking.
I dread the day I see FEMI troops walking up the road to "HELP US" but I do see that day coming, and may God help me, but I pray it happens while I can still fight! 
I have five children and, good Lord, I have 16 grand children and none of them realizes what lies ahead except for my youngest DD and she is still at home. She is my right hand around here too, and she does see what coming at us, but even at 23, she still has a lot to learn. 
Where we differ is that I don't "Believe 9/11 was a monster scam", I know it was. 


Godspeed. 

Ranger


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

watcher said:


> I'll get into more detail later if needed but. . .
> 
> You may know some about metal but you clearly don't know much about building demo and explosives. Let's just say it ain't like they show in the movies where the hero, or bad guy, runs up and sticks a charge about the size of your hand and blows a hole the size of a pickup in a reenforced concrete wall.
> 
> .


Mr. Watcher, as I have said on this forum many times, I was in the 82nd Airborne among things I can't speak about. You would be surprised at what "I do know much about demos and explosives!"

{ took out some information that is not real good to have out in open forums these days}


Well, let's just say that I was in for a surprise. 

Don't give me that engineering BS about anything about the twin towers after I saw with my own tow eyes, molten steel and/or iron pouring out of a corner of one of the buildings on one of the news channels just hours after they both fell. 

You can talk for the gubbernuts all you care to. You'll never know what I do. 
Or do you, and just want to shut me up? 
Have a good day Mr. Watcher

Z-Ranger


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## moldy (Mar 5, 2004)

My mom was raised in an orphanage during the great depression. I learned 'prepping' as a way of life. and I wouldn't be any other way.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

All in all, I'll have to say the reason that I started stocking up was a couple of times when my personal life went towards TSHTF! That was my own fault. 
It has been many years ago but there was a couple times that things just went wrong and I saw my family get hungry. 
That is a bad feeling for a man. 
Thank God that neither time took long for me to correct, but it was a horrible feeling. 
I pray that will never happen again. 
I think we have maybe enough to survive on here and make it a year if we didn't get anything else, but I want to get some goats for the milk and learn how to make cheese. and I wish I had the money now to by the sow and 6 piglets that are in the barter section here at HT's, but I couldn't afford the fencing materials right now. 
We have three springs that years ago was all routed into a block pump house which I still need to finish cleaning out, but it isn't that much more to go and a good scrub with bleach should make it drinkable again. So we are ok on water year round if we have to bring buckets of ice in to melt. :buds: 
As soon as I get a couple of projects finished, that will free up $200 to as much as $500 during the winter that I don't have to pay the city for heat and electricity. I figure about 4k per year that I have been spending which will be left in the house. That will get my saw mill I started building about ten years ago going, which will cut any lumber I need for building, fencing etc., to include cedar shakes for the roofs. :sing:

That's the best outcome I can see and pray for right now, but if I can somehow manage to make that much happen, I will be well on my way to self sufficiency. 
Should be, it has only taken me 60 years to get there. 

Godspeed to all. 

Ranger


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

Why do I prep -- simply common sense. I too was raised to keep a pantry. The second winter dh and I were married we had a new baby and only he was working. Food was scarce. When a friend came across a cache of commodity dried beans in an apartment she was cleaning, she shared with us. Beans, beans, beans all that winter and thankful to have them. Common sense told me that as our finances improved, I should build my pantry. It contains a lot of beans, but also a lot of other good foods. If nothing else, a lot of flavorings to make the beans more tasty would have been good that one miserable winter!

I take a lot of flack from dd about my "hoard" of food. However, I'm sure that she'll be here looking for a handout if the SHTF. My grandson has a prep cupboard full of canned soups. Better than nothing!


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

moldy said:


> My mom was raised in an orphanage during the great depression. I learned 'prepping' as a way of life. and I wouldn't be any other way.


My mom too was in an orphanage during the depression. Prepping as it called now was the norm in or house. Mom set up a large variety of stuff and only bought lost leaders. She saved money,always had short term saving plans, emergency fund, next months fund to pay the bills, church tith, charity fund, retirement fund, repair fund, and pin money.

She never wanted to have to leave the house because she needed to buy something..... that was a failure to plan, a waste of time and gas and a miss of time with us. We had bad snow storms in western New York, windstorm that took our roof off, floods, and hot summer so she would always say "how nice it is that we have what we need and are safely not out driving in this". 

Made sense to me.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

Ann, I was about to go to the shop and get back at it but you posted almost before I did and I had to answer you back on this one, so I'll make this fast.
That is if I can. :hammer:
We have been there with the beans for weeks too, and if you run out of salt and pepper and at least a piece or two of fat back, they are dead as can be, but if you can get them down, they will fill a belly! 
If you are that hungry, as you know, you will eat them and you will be thankful for them.
If I am not wrong, we have 11 gallon jars of dried beans now. That includes different kinds of beans, peas, and all, and I know your feelings about the seasoning. 
We also have, I had to go count and that is odd, but we also have eleven 26 oz., uh, what do you call them round boxes of salt. 
Of course they are mostly all hard as a rock, BUT! It is still salt.
I finally got my wife to start buying the largest container of black pepper she could find at Big Lots, or Family Dollar, Etc. and the drawer looked like maybe 20 boxes of that. 
If God is willing to let me plant a garden next year, (I just didn't have time or energy without bad pain to do it this year) I have a really good friend that lives just around the corner that had planted a garden since I was his paper boy nearly a half century ago. Dad blame it. That hurt to say that and then stop to look at what I had just typed. OUCH, but it's true. 
Anyway Kyle had a heart attack last spring and is finally back up and moving but he will never be able to plant that garden again. He said he didn't because the deer ate it but that isn't why. 
Anyway, God willing I am going to plant it for him next year. His two sons called themselves planting and tending it this year but all they did was fertilize the weeds. 
But if I can plant it next year, I figure on planting about half of it in spices that we can dry and hoard.


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## Traderdell (Nov 22, 2005)

I browse here of ton and post hardly ever but will jump in here. 

I have "prepped" all my life. I'm 62 so both of my parents grew up during the depression. We lived rural and had livestock for meet, eggs, milk and gardened and heated with wood. 

I never stopped living like that, it's just a way of life I'm most comfortable with. 

So no 9/11 had nothing to do with my being prepared. As for if I believe the official accounts of what happened that day. Yes.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I was born into a prepping family. For me it is just a way of life. Dh finally came around when 0bama got re-elected. 9/11 didn't have any influence on our prepping.

Do I believe the stories about that day? Some. It just depends on which story you mean.


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## Jerngen (May 22, 2006)

December 31st, 1999 I made sure to buy a gallon of water, some crackers, bread and lunch meat. Filled up the gas tank. That was the extent of my prepping (early 20's). 

Sept. 11th, 2001 was a dark day indeed but didn't change my way of living at the time. 

Becoming a father for the first time in late 2004, discovering this thing online called "homesteading", and watching the news coverage of Hurricane Katrina and the aftermath in 2005 is what finally spurred me to learn to be more self reliant and put some goods aside for emergencies.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

For me it was the economic tsunami I saw and still see coming for this country..


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

Aintlifegrand said:


> For me it was the economic tsunami I saw and still see coming for this country..


That is a large part of me doing so today. I have gotten caught with my pants down too many times already.

Godspeed

Ranger


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

I was taught to prepare for Y2K. Nothing happened and over the course of the next year or so, my supplies dwindled down and I never restocked.
Fast forward to 2008, sales were very low and my husk.ess was struggling, ended up closing down in 2009. Money was tight, jobs weren't to be found. I decided to put a garden in.
Then thought back to my childhood and helping my Grandad with his chickens.
So I bought some chickens, then some rabbits.
Then learned to bake bread, make jams and jellies, can veggies, etc.
Now it is all second nature to me.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

I was just talking to a friend about this last night. I don't know why I have the urge to prep; we were not raised to prep, we owned a grocery store so we just went and got what we wanted after the trucks stocked the shelves. My mom canned a very little when we were kids but I wasn't taught that stewed tomatoes or pickles would keep us fed WTSHTF. My mom and dad were poor when they grew up and daddy used to tell us that he would get slapped from the table if he reached for a 2nd pork chop, but growing up we never missed a meal. But for some reason I feel a sense of peace when I open a freezer and see it stocked, or fill the barn with bags of barley or bales of hay for the goats. But it has nothing to do with 9/11-I do know that. It wasn't until very recently I even realized the real reason behind 9/11 and the rest of "what's up" with the gov't. 

The #1 reason I prep is because I have children for which I am responsible. And unlike others who say "my god will provide" - my god says "get off your duff and stock some food-they will look to you and you had better done the best you could." Or maybe that's my intuition- who knows?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

PrettyPaisley said:


> The #1 reason I prep is because I have children for which I am responsible. And unlike others who say "my god will provide" - my god says "get off your duff and stock some food-they will look to you and you had better done the best you could." Or maybe that's my intuition- who knows?


That's your intuition, not God.

God told you otherwise. God told you not to worry about your food or shelter and told you that He would provide it for you.

Your self-deception tells you that YOU are the one who will do the providing by working and stockpiling.

It's important to get this straight. Really important if you want to avoid the lessons that I have had to learn in this matter.

When I thought that it was MY hands which did the providing, everything was taken from me. Until such time as I learned that ALL things come from God. I can make knives all day long, but it will be God who inspires someone to click "buy". And it was God which put the money in their pocket to do so. I can plant seeds in the garden all day long, but it will be God who makes them grow.

In all of biblical history, God told only ONE person to prepare, and that was the pharaoh. God did this in order to bring a remnant of His people into Egypt and to preserve them _as slaves_. It was both a punishment and a blessing at the same time.

So be very careful if you think that God is telling you to prepare. Most likely He is not. That belief comes from your own sense of human frailty and worry. God is undoubtedly telling you to do things, if you are His, and those things may lead you to be MORE prepared, but that is a completely different matter than God telling you to prepare.

When you prep and say, "I am going to store this because it may not be available in the future" then you are deliberately saying, "I don't trust you, God, to take care of me in the future."

And many people were blessed with so much extra right now and they foolishly said, "Clearly God wants me to save for the future" but that is their own greed and foolishness. It is more likely that God blessed you so much that you might in turn bless others _right now_. I find it a great shame to have excess on my shelf when I know others within my reach are going hungry.

I, personally, do not prep. We live. Something is provided each and every day. My labor, such as it is, serves as a form of education to me much more than it serves to provide a living. No longer do the things I do "provide" for us, but rather they serve as a vehicle for God to instruct me and bless me.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Imagine that you are given a small packet of seeds. In this packet are the last 10 seeds of a very rare heirloom tomato. It produces extremely well and will take over your garden, it is so prolific. The fruits last a long time and taste great with everything. It is resistant to every disease and parasite known to man.

So you would naturally consider "How best to preserve this heirloom tomato?"

The foolish man would construct a deep vault, climate-controlled, with dehumidifiers and airlocks and store the seed deep inside that vault where it can remain for all of eternity untouched by mold or mice (or the hands of other men).

The wise man would take that seed and give it to the ten best gardeners he knows, and instruct them to take as much of the seed from that planting and give it to the ten best gardeners that THEY know, until every gardener who wants some can find it. 

If you can understand this parable, then you understand what I am saying about blessings and love.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

BadFordRanger said:


> gweny, I haven't been to N. Y. probably 30 years now, and I was never in New York City. You are the first person that I have heard from that lives in or does work in New York, and I'd give nearly anything to know what the people that were in the city on 9/11 thinks about the governments stories about what happened.
> I hadn't forgot it but I had pretty much buried it because I don't see the truth ever coming out but this computer has been acting but the last few days and last night I was looking at some u-tube videos of Alaskan saw mills when out of no where a video of an engineering professor started running and that was what he was talking about and it was about like ripping stitches open in a bad cut.
> It was weird because I didn't start it, and I couldn't stop it either. I just punched out of everything I had on the screen and when I got down to the blank screen it still kept talking.
> It wouldn't even let me turn the computer off so I finally just unplugged it. I set here thinking about the computer to start with and then I went back to the morning of 9/11and that's when I made the OP.
> ...


That conspiracy theory is pure bunk.

The weakness in the design was the connections and the lack of proper fire proofing applied to the steel. No engineer would have designed a structure to withstand a fire fed by thousands of pounds of fuel. No sprinkler system is designed for that either even if it withstood the impact. The water flowing from the broken lines helped spread the flaming fuel.

Nor was the building designed to resist the collapse of a floor. After the effort to blow up a tower failed, I suspect the planners of the attack must have been as amazed as anyone at the results. We've had bridges collapse in this country due to design issues that weren't recognized until it was too late. We've had bridges that were compromised by truck fires.

Normally in a high rise building fire you're not dealing with massive amounts of flammable fluid. The 9/11 disaster was a perfect storm of sorts.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

Darren, AngieM2 has taught me a lesson and I'll keep most of my thoughts to myself, but I will ask you a few questions if you don't mind. 

Do you think that I am a total idiot? 
I'll admit. I have made some of the most idiotic moves any man could make. 
I also call myself the smartest stupid person, or the stupidest smart person that I have ever known. 
I do, do stupid things sometimes. 
But when I do stupid things, it is always without thinking about the outcome first. 
I am not an idiot, and I am not stupid, and I have used the very smartest parts of my brain to pick 9/11 apart as well as I knew how.

Did you know that over 2,000 engineers got together and tried to force the gubbernuts to have a true and honest investigation?????????????????????? 

Over 2,000 men and maybe even a few women that all knew the truth about the collapses of the building and even that was shut down by the gubbernuts????????????????

Let me ask you this question, Darren! Do you think that you are smarter than a combination of over 2,000, college taught, engineers who know the truth???????????????????????

And one last question, Mr. Darren, are you part of the cover up crew??????

Godspeed Mr. Darren

RANGER


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

9/11 didn't have much to do with my lifestyle. The government's RESPONSE to 9/11 certainly might have. Essentially cancelling our constitutional rights and up-jumping it's legal, constitutional limits was more scary to me than anything the supposed 'terrorists' have done.

As far as whether or not I believe the government's story? Not at all. I don't know what happened but I'm sure there is much more than we will ever know. Sometimes I like to think of the government as an individual...forget about the idea that it is an institution...if the government were an individual who had done everything that government has done...would you believe a word that person told you?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Darren said:


> Normally in a high rise building fire you're not dealing with massive amounts of flammable fluid. The 9/11 disaster was a perfect storm of sorts.


Ok, I might buy that theory if I wasn't a blacksmith by trade.

Structural steel begins to anneal at 1510 C. 

Jet fuel burns at 825 C (per Professor Google ... I had to look that up.)

Plus, jet fuel is liquid in form. Even when it's on fire, it should have been pouring out of windows, down stairwells, through holes in the walls and floor, etc. There is no way that it would pool up enough around the structural supports to burn long and hot enough to seriously weaken the steel in the building. We would have seen video of flaming rivers of fire pouring out of the windows, which I do not recall seeing anywhere.

I'm not a subscriber to conspiracy theory in general, but when the official explanations are so bad ... well ... that's what makes me a believer.

The Russians had an expression under the communists ... "Never believe any rumor until you hear the official denial."


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

Thank you both so much, Ernie & Twobottom for debunking Darren's debunk! 
And I applaud you both for standing up for what you know to be true! 
As I said, I have been in a team of welders and helpers that had to preheat beams that weren't even as large as the ones that I saw in pictures on the towers going up and with 8 rosebuds going full time it took at least 8 hours to just get them thick webbed suckers up to 165 degree. 
God Himself would have to tell me that kerosene, or jet fuel weaken those columns to the point of giving way, if the fire had burned for two days. 
There is no way on Gods Green Earth that it happened in less than an hour. 


Godspeed

Ranger


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Ah, 9/11 I really remember that day.

And it did impact work as the company I worked for was the ones that helped design the transit system there, and had to send engineers and various others to help for the clean up and getting things like the transit working.


I don't know that I believe either way totally. 

I have seen the documentaries on how the designer of the twin towers and the exoskeleton of the building was only built to anticipate a private airplane hit as a possibility (which is what I thought when I heard the first reports of a plane hitting a tower.)

But 9/11 had nothing to do with why I work on being prepared for what life throws at me.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

BadFordRanger said:


> Thank you both so much, Ernie & Twobottom for debunking Darren's debunk!
> And I applaud you both for standing up for what you know to be true!


Um, I don't particularly know what IS true. I just know that the official story is not believable. 

A Boeing 767-200ER can hold (full) 24,139 gallons of jet fuel. 

24,139 gallons of fuel (burning or otherwise) would not stay put on one floor of the World Trade Center if deposited there.

Liquid seeks the lowest point. 

A river of burning fuel would have poured down every stairwell and elevator shaft in the building. It would have poured out the sides of the building. There would have been no escape from the emergency stairwells (as we heard from survivors) because the stairwells would have become engulfed in flame as a torrent of burning jet fuel poured down them to ground level.

24,139 gallons would occupy 3226.9 cubic feet. 

The dimensions of the WTC were 208' X 208'. 

So that's roughly like having 1.5 olympic-sized swimming pools occupying a single floor of the WTC. 

Do you see all the physics problems with the official story? It doesn't make sense.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Ernie that explanation of yours, and that mention of liquid fuel flowing down is not something that I'd thought of before. That does make sense via science laws.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

Well Ernie, one thing that I do know, and that is you either use more numerals after the decimal point, or one of us is off by a whole two gallons of fuel, LOL. 
I only go as far as 7.48 gallons per C.F. in my calculation as I am still a small timer, LOL, but yes Sir, I do see exactly what you are saying and only pray that more would realize it before we are all slapped against the wall. 

Godspeed

Ranger


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

BadFordRanger said:


> Well Ernie, one thing that I do know, and that is you either use more numerals after the decimal point, or one of us is off by a whole two gallons of fuel, LOL.
> I only go as far as 7.48 gallons per C.F. in my calculation as I am still a small timer, LOL, but yes Sir, I do see exactly what you are saying and only pray that more would realize it before we are all slapped against the wall.
> 
> Godspeed
> ...


Professor Google is known for returning multiple different answers to the same question.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

Ernie said:


> Imagine that you are given a small packet of seeds. In this packet are the last 10 seeds of a very rare heirloom tomato. It produces extremely well and will take over your garden, it is so prolific. The fruits last a long time and taste great with everything. It is resistant to every disease and parasite known to man.
> 
> So you would naturally consider "How best to preserve this heirloom tomato?"
> 
> ...



Well maybe god can give me some more courage and less Type - A personality.  We are all designed differently and while some might store the precious seed, I'd be planting it year after year. But I won't be passing out sauce to those who have sat back in their butts and soaked up every episode of American Idol. I won't hand them food from the mouth of my children. 

We aren't that far apart in some ways, but I'm not "give it up to god" kinda girl. I realize it's not all in my control but I will do what I can with my abilities to make sure my family has food.


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

BadFordRanger said:


> gweny, I haven't been to N. Y. probably 30 years now, and I was never in New York City. You are the first person that I have heard from that lives in or does work in New York, and I'd give nearly anything to know what the people that were in the city on 9/11 thinks about the governments stories about what happened.
> I hadn't forgot it but I had pretty much buried it because I don't see the truth ever coming out but this computer has been acting but the last few days and last night I was looking at some u-tube videos of Alaskan saw mills when out of no where a video of an engineering professor started running and that was what he was talking about and it was about like ripping stitches open in a bad cut.
> It was weird because I didn't start it, and I couldn't stop it either. I just punched out of everything I had on the screen and when I got down to the blank screen it still kept talking.
> It wouldn't even let me turn the computer off so I finally just unplugged it. I set here thinking about the computer to start with and then I went back to the morning of 9/11and that's when I made the OP.
> ...


I was not in NY or DC on 9-11. I was in training in the Navy. That was the same day I graduated from training and was eligible for the fleet. My fiancÃ© at the time was born and raised in Brooklyn. He lost many child hood friends that day. He got to take emergency leave and I was able to join him for 2 weeks before I shipped out. We drove to NY from Norfolk, VA, through DC. Passing the pentagon on 395N is something I will never forget. I went to see the towers as well. I drank and ate free every where i went the entire time I was in NY... They just wanted me to go kill whoever did that to them. I heard no discussions even hinting that anything or anyone other than Muslim extremists could have caused it. Living just outside of DC for many years now, I still have not heard anyone here suggest anything else.

I don't personally ponder what the government is up to; what they have or haven't done. I just assume its horrific... That is its nature. That is the inevitable outcome as long as people are greedy and selfish. Greedy and selfish are survival instincts. We can't stop everyone from being greedy and selfish any more than we can stop every dog from licking its butt.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Shine said:


> Just for the record... Regarding 9-11 - you cannot get a symmetrical result from asymmetrical causes. Especially 3 times on one day. The lock for me - ? - NIST admitted that with WTC-7, during collapse, the roof line progressed downwards at free fall speeds for 2.5 seconds - explain where those 8 floors worth of resistance went. 8 floors worth of distance - 0 resistance.


You can show it yourself with just a little research, work (and a bit of money). All you need is a high speed camera and the time and supplies to make a structure built like the WTC, i.e. where the support comes from hanging the 'floors' on the outside, in miniature. Set up your high speed camera. Put a sack of concrete on each floor of your building. Then start the cam and drop two sacks onto the top floor. If you watch the recording you will see that the first floor resist the impact for a very small amount of time. You'll then note the second floor when hit with the three sacks of concrete resist the impact but for a smaller period of time. The third floor taking the impact of four falling sacks probably will have a measurable amount of time between impact and failure. Now unless you have some really good recording equipment the odds are by the time you get to the fifth floor taking the impact of six bags of concrete you are going to see "free fall" speeds.

Think about it this way. Grab a piece of newspaper between your hands and snap them apart. How much are your hands slowed down by the newspaper?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

BadFordRanger said:


> Mr. Watcher, as I have said on this forum many times, I was in the 82nd Airborne among things I can't speak about. You would be surprised at what "I do know much about demos and explosives!"


Then you should know how much explosives and time it would have taken to rig a building the size of the WTC. You are looking at having to cut 47 interior steel columns and 240 (60/side) exterior steel columns and/or cut through 4" thick concrete which were laying a metal decking which was on top of trusses in several places on each floor. Since you imply you know something about explosives you should realize how large of charges you'd need to do this. Now do you really see someone lugging that volume of high explosives around in a public building w/o being seen?

Running wire or detcord to all the charges would require a huge number of man hours. And how do you prevent the aircraft from setting off some of your charges or cutting the wire/detcord to them? After all you can't be sure where each aircraft would be going to hit.




BadFordRanger said:


> Don't give me that engineering BS about anything about the twin towers after I saw with my own tow eyes, molten steel and/or iron pouring out of a corner of one of the buildings on one of the news channels just hours after they both fell.


I'll bite were did this molten steel you saw come from? What would have been in there which could have burned so hot to still be melting steel "hours after" the failure? I don't think there would be any thermite still burning "hours after" it was set off to bring the building down, do you?




BadFordRanger said:


> You can talk for the gubbernuts all you care to.


I talk for myself and myself alone. When someone says something I don't think is correct the odds are I'm going to say something, its in my nature. This is a clear case where Occam's razor should be applied. When you look at it you'll see there is more than enough data to support the simple engineering based conclusion I gave. OTOH, for it to have been a planned event you must take on faith that:

1) In all the years since the event not one single person involved has slipped up and 'let the cat out of the bag'.
2) All the necessary work to rig the buildings were done w/o anyone seeing or reporting it.
3) There was no evidence found in all the debris which was handled by thousands of people or if it was it was suppressed. 
4) The cover up is so air tight that after all these years no one has managed to uncover any hard evidence.




BadFordRanger said:


> You'll never know what I do. Or do you, and just want to shut me up?


You can talk all you wish. I have found the best way to show people a logical point is to allow them to talk and ask them to support their conclusions. 




BadFordRanger said:


> Have a good day Mr. Watcher
> 
> Z-Ranger


Thanks I usually do.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Ok, I might buy that theory if I wasn't a blacksmith by trade.
> 
> Structural steel begins to anneal at 1510 C.
> 
> ...


I guess national geographic is part of the conspiracy.

[YOUTUBE]CGsOkT__M7Y[/YOUTUBE]


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Um, I don't particularly know what IS true. I just know that the official story is not believable.
> 
> A Boeing 767-200ER can hold (full) 24,139 gallons of jet fuel.
> 
> ...


Remember there was a lot more than just jet fuel burning. Most of modern office equipment is plastic which is not much more than solid oil. Using your logic shouldn't the fires had burned themselves out quickly?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

watcher said:


> Remember there was a lot more than just jet fuel burning. Most of modern office equipment is plastic which is not much more than solid oil. Using your logic shouldn't the fires had burned themselves out quickly?


I don't know that they didn't. 

This image is of the second strike. Note the large fireball. That would be exploding fuel. Notice the smoke plumes from the right where the earlier strike had already hit. No giant fireball, but a lot of smoke.

Would not the lion's share of the fuel have burned up in the giant fireball?

And everyone with a woodstove knows that when you see dense, thick smoke like that it's because your fire isn't hot enough to consume the particulate residue.

So I have difficulty coming to the conclusion that burning office supplies let to the structural collapse of the steel. There would have to be an enormous amount of office supplies stacked in heaps around those structural supports, not just scattered through the office. 

Unless, of course, as a government building the WTC did NOT have the quality and amount of structural steel it was supposed to have. If some architect cut corners and paid off a building inspector then that would throw off our calculations. And you could see the government covering that up because it would make them obviously culpable in the deaths.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Also consider building 7.

It was a 47 story part of the WTC complex. It completely collapsed because of the same "fire" that they claim brought down the other two towers, HOWEVER it was not struck by any aircraft. It was damaged by debris and set ablaze (allegedly from the flaming part of the plane which were scattered around) and then collapsed into its own footprint much later in the day. 

It was hit by far less debris than buildings 3, 4, 5, and 6 but yet out of all of those, it's the only one which collapsed. 

If it was fire which caused its collapse, it is the only steel frame construction skyscraper in all of history to have done so, both before 9/11 and in the almost 20 years since. 

So building 7 remains the fly in the ointment to the government's theory.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Here's my summation of the whole 9/11 thing ...

If your husband comes home late with lipstick on his shirt and smelling like cheap perfume and tells you he had a flat tire, you know he's lying. You may never get him to confess, but giving you such an obvious lie has now permanently tainted the relationship.

I don't know what happened on 9/11, but the lie that was given was worse than giving no explanation at all. It strains believability. The fact that they would go to the effort of concocting such a fabrication (and expecting everyone to believe it) shows that something else did happen and that they think you are all idiots.

When people say they prep because of 9/11, my immediate assumption is that they prep because they now know their government has turned into a lying, tyrannical 
police-state and not because they are afraid particularly of Middle-Eastern terrorists.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

I know exactly what you mean Ernie. I think that everyone in the US has gotten to where they at the very least, suspect the gubbernuts are up to no good for the United States of America.
But for the most part, people are not people in the true sense any longer. They have become sheeple, and not only do we have to worry about the gubbernuts, but the sheeple will actually back them by doing nothing and keeping their traps shut. 
I have no doubt in my mind, what so ever, that Bush, Chaney & Company, cold bloodedly murdered thousands and thousand of people on 9/11/2001!

We now know a little bit about Black Water. What about those mercenaries that was being paid by our own government?? 

Bushes brother, I forget his name now but the one that was the Gubbiner of Fla., owned the security company that secured the trade centers. 

I have spent all day looking for some of the things that were on the internet about 10 years ago, and it's all gone. 
It has all been replaced. Where did it go? 
As I said earlier in the thread, there were pictures that were taken by the men that built the trade center that showed how huge the beams were, but they are all gone. It is nearly six O'clock PM now, and I started looking for those pictures this morning before the sun came up and they frigging aren't there any longer. 
Why did they simply say poof, we're gone? 

The US declared War on people that didn't have a danged thing to do with 9/11 just so Bush, Chaney, & Company could go in and do as they pleased. 

When is the U. S. Citizens going to wake up to what the tyrannical gubbernuts are doing to us? 

I can't and don't blame other countries for hating us. We can't even control the MAFIA that rules this country. And that Ladies & Gentlemen, is who runs out government today! 

Godspeed

Ranger

P.S., Jeb Bush


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I remember seeing video of the Pentagon "attack". That also was gone within hours after it was shown. I don't believe the story that was released about that one, not one tiny bit.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

Danaus29 said:


> I remember seeing video of the Pentagon "attack". That also was gone within hours after it was shown. I don't believe the story that was released about that one, not one tiny bit.


Danaus, there is a lot of things that are posted once and never seen again.
I had a recording of the news coverage of the Oklahoma Federal Building Bombing, (actually we used 5 tapes on slow record to save it all but they all got drown in a basement flood) and there was one news reporter who was making a broadcast and I think it was one of her crew members ran up in the middle of it and told her that they had found a bomb that hadn't exploded in the basement and pointed to where a car was setting by the curb. 
OK, I had already gotten the news paper before I saw that and that same car was setting exactly where the man had pointed at.
Now anyone, that has more energy then I do can go to the local newspaper and find that picture. 
I don't still have that tape, but anyone can find a copy of those pictures. 

Again, I bring our Almighty Lord into this, because God knows better than I, that there is no way on "GODS GREEN EARTH" that that car was still setting there, less than 50 yards away with only a few debris on it, if Timothy McVeigh had detonated a truck bomb that blew part all the way across the street and into other buildings. 

Timothy was set up to become the all famous pig and they murdered him. 

That broadcast was gold and I let it get ruined in a basement flood trying to save it for later. 

Go to the news paper in your home town and look up the front page on the day after the bombing and look at it. 

A truck bomb was supposed to do what it did, setting 20 or more feet from the building and did that damage and just left the car setting there? 
Look at the Stop lights at both ends of the block! 

One bottom left corner of one light was broken off! 

And how did they nab McVeigh so fast and blame it on him?

A cop pulled him for speeding and he had a .45 caliber semiautomatic pistol in the seat beside him. 

Now I don't know about anyone else, but if I had been pulled, with that pistol setting beside me after I just blew a building up I think, I just think that I very well might have simply blew that cop away and driven away. 

Godspeed to most of you. 

Ranger

PS, that run on the news was showed live the one time live, never to return. And neither did the lady that was making the broadcast. She was cute as could be, but I have never seen her again! 
I wonder where she went and the guy that came running to tell her they found an un-exploded bomb on a column?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Ernie said:


> Ok, I might buy that theory if I wasn't a blacksmith by trade.
> 
> Structural steel begins to anneal at 1510 C.
> 
> ...


It wasn't just the kerosene burning. Those offices were loaded with lots of class A material that added immensely to the fuel load. During the impact sequence you can see lots of stuff blowing out the side of the building. Some of that was kerosene. 

What wasn't recognized at the time of 911, was the issues with modern materials meaning plastics. I attended a fire fighting seminar that focused on why structure fires burn faster and hotter. I'll link to a youtube video later that demonstrates the problem. We consider plastics to be solidified gasoline. Modern carpets, furnishings, etc. burn much faster and hotter than you think.

Fifty years ago I saw the twisted steel that remained from a fire that consumed a large grocery store. Steel doesn't have to melt to lose it's strength. You also have issues with the heat caused expansion that the connections were never designed to withstand.

Structures are designed considering both dead and live loads. The Towers were never designed for a live load resulting from an entire floor dropping. Impacts like that are way beyond design parameters.

[YOUTUBE]aDNPhq5ggoE[/YOUTUBE]


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

BadFordRanger said:


> Darren, AngieM2 has taught me a lesson and I'll keep most of my thoughts to myself, but I will ask you a few questions if you don't mind.
> 
> Do you think that I am a total idiot?
> I'll admit. I have made some of the most idiotic moves any man could make.
> ...


I do not believe there was a coverup. FWIW, I am a degreed civil engineer and a firefighter. I've seen one presentation of the steel design which detailed the connections and discussed the lack of proper fireproofing on the steel. To me it's an open and shut case especially with the recent warnings to firefighters. 

Once the aircraft hit those buildings and the fire started there was no other possible outcome.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

Yea Darren, and if pigs could fly.

Ranger


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

BadFordRanger said:


> Yea Darren, and if pigs could fly.
> 
> Ranger


Did you watch the video? The 30 to 40 firefighters at the presentation had a collective OSM when that video was shown. That was performed by UL in their labs. It explains exactly why the Twin Towers had much more fuel load than many would expect. Who worries about that when you're in a sprinklered building?

The problem was brought home when we heard the last radio transmission of a firefighter that got trapped and died in a burning house built with modern materials. Not far from here two fire fighters died inside a house trailer when the conditions changed before they could react. They literally died in their tracks with virtually no warning again due to the same materials that were in the Twin Towers.

You can scoff all you want. The video proves the nature of structure fires have changed greatly for the worse. That is a matter of widely recognized fact now in the fire service. The video and the test had nothing to do with 9/11 and everything to do with it. It's an independent test that explains exactly why the fires in the Towers were beyond what anyone would have expected.

In this case seeing should be believing. The firefighters that watched got the message loud and clear. This country has enough problems without making them up.


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## sss3 (Jul 15, 2007)

Don't know about the rest of you, I realized; when they first started broadcasting, that I would never forget that day. Meaning time it happened, and exactly where I was. A little like Kennedy Assination.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Ernie said:


> I don't know that they didn't.
> 
> This image is of the second strike. Note the large fireball. That would be exploding fuel. Notice the smoke plumes from the right where the earlier strike had already hit. No giant fireball, but a lot of smoke.
> 
> Would not the lion's share of the fuel have burned up in the giant fireball?


Not likely. Remember TWA 800? It blew up because of a spark in the INTERNAL tanks. If you check you will discover those aircraft carried a huge amount of fuel in those internal tanks. The fire ball you see is most likely from the vaporized fuel in the wing tanks which would have ruptured on impact with the steel exoskeleton of the building. The internal tanks would not have ruptured in such a way to vaporize the fuel.

If you look at video and pictures of airliner crashes you will note that there is usually a fireball on impact from the wing tanks then a long burning fire from the internal tanks. Assuming its not quickly extinguished.




Ernie said:


> And everyone with a woodstove knows that when you see dense, thick smoke like that it's because your fire isn't hot enough to consume the particulate residue.


True but have you ever burn a tire? We used to hook them to the back of a truck, put some gasoline in, light them up and pull them through just harvested wheat fields to burn off the stubble. (The EPA would go nuts if you tired that today) Even with all the air around you still get large amounts of black smoke AND a very hot fire.

If you watch the video I posted you will see smoke producing burning jet fuel will heat steel to the point of elasticity. In the WTC once the floor supports started sagging the building was doomed because the floor supports was what connected the interior and external support columns.




Ernie said:


> So I have difficulty coming to the conclusion that burning office supplies let to the structural collapse of the steel. There would have to be an enormous amount of office supplies stacked in heaps around those structural supports, not just scattered through the office.


I think you may not understand what exactly happened. The vertical/wall supports were not the ones which were heated and failed, it was the horizontal/floor supports. 

Think about having a lot of stuff in the attic of a two story house and someone started cutting through the ceiling joist. Even if they didn't cut all of them in the same area at some point there would not be enough intact to hold up all that stuff. Then the ceiling would fail and all that weight would hit the floor. If that floor had already been damaged the impact of that stuff falling 8 feet could very easily cause that floor to fail. Then you have all the stuff from the attic AND the second floor falling onto the first story floor. I don't think many household floors are built to withstand that kind of force hitting it.

Then when the floors were gone the walls would then collapse because they depend on the floors and ceilings to hold them up.




Ernie said:


> Unless, of course, as a government building the WTC did NOT have the quality and amount of structural steel it was supposed to have. If some architect cut corners and paid off a building inspector then that would throw off our calculations. And you could see the government covering that up because it would make them obviously culpable in the deaths.


Again it was a very strong design but it depended on ALL of the structural components to be there doing their job (much like the modern suspension bridge). Once the floor supports on one floor were gone there was NOTHING to prevent the exoskeleton from bowing out which put even more strain on the floor supports above and below the failed floor.


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Also consider building 7.
> 
> It was a 47 story part of the WTC complex. It completely collapsed because of the same "fire" that they claim brought down the other two towers, HOWEVER it was not struck by any aircraft. It was damaged by debris and set ablaze (allegedly from the flaming part of the plane which were scattered around) and then collapsed into its own footprint much later in the day.
> 
> It was hit by far less debris than buildings 3, 4, 5, and 6 but yet out of all of those, it's the only one which collapsed.


I'd have to study if it was constructed with the same exoskeleton system and how much fire there was on how many floors. But your saying it "collaspsed into its own footprint" makes me think it probably was. The reason the towers fell the way they did was because of the design. But remember the towers didn't fail due to the impact, which is fairly amazing when you look at the energy numbers. They failed because the fire. 




Ernie said:


> If it was fire which caused its collapse, it is the only steel frame construction skyscraper in all of history to have done so, both before 9/11 and in the almost 20 years since.


I don't think there's been a fire in a steel framed skyscraper where the fire suppression system was knocked out and was hit with fuel loaded airliners AND had the exoskeleton design of the WTC before nor after 9/11. I have stated several times what doomed the towers was their design.

If the WTC had been build with traditional steel frame work the lower parts might not have failed or at least not failed the way it did. The area above the fire would have, most likely, have listed to one side then fell free or maybe even pulled the towers down in a more horizontal fashion like a falling tree. Its a very interesting engineering question. If I had a few tens of thousands of dollars laying around I'd hire someone to crunch the numbers and make a computer model of it.




Ernie said:


> So building 7 remains the fly in the ointment to the government's theory.


Again, I haven't studied your building 7 failure but from the sound of it, it sounds like it failed for the same reasons as the towers.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Fyi, I just crunched some numbers. Using speed data from an MIT paper http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/PDFfiles/Chapter%20III%20Aircraft%20speed.pdf 

and Boeing http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/767family/pf/pf_200prod.page 

in kinetic energy calculating and conversion websites I was able to find out the impact energy of the aircraft on the WTC towers.

For the north tower it works out to be equal to around 1,500 pounds of TNT and for the south tower it was 2,000 pounds. To put that in a little prospective that's like getting hit all at once by 4,700 pickups moving at 60 mph. Or one moving at 4,100 mph.

http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/PDFfiles/Chapter III Aircraft speed.pdf


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Here's my summation of the whole 9/11 thing ...
> 
> If your husband comes home late with lipstick on his shirt and smelling like cheap perfume and tells you he had a flat tire, you know he's lying. You may never get him to confess, but giving you such an obvious lie has now permanently tainted the relationship.
> 
> ...


Where is your lipstick stain and odor of cheap perfume in this case? What hard, tangible evidence can anyone offer to contradict the simple and straight forward and engineeringly sound reasons for the catastrophic failure? What if in your case you go out and discover the car has the 'donut' spare on it and in the trunk there's the road tire with a gash in the sidewall? Are you still going to say he didn't have a flat or you going to assume he found that tire laying on the side of the road, put the spare on the car and threw the perfectly good tire away?

As I have said there is much more evidence to show the towers collapsed because of the impact and fire than because someone blew them up. As I have also stated to believe that the towers were taken down by explosives you must almost, as they say in the movies, suspend disbelief. Do you think something this big could be kept quite for this long? There would have to be dozens if not hundreds (thousands if you count all the emergency and construction people) of people involved.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

Sandra Spiess said:


> Don't know about the rest of you, I realized; when they first started broadcasting, that I would never forget that day. Meaning time it happened, and exactly where I was. A little like Kennedy Assination.


I know how you feel Sandra. I was working for a man and was in the middle of building him a basement shop and an ground level garage on top of it. 
I had dug and poured the footings, laid the blocks and brick and poured the floor in the shop, and then I had hung all the steel, sheeted it and poured the Garage floor, and laid a double brick wall and was ready for the roof structure, and he came out with the architects blue print for the roof. 
It didn't take me five minutes if that long and I told Chester "this isn't going to work being stick built."
He wanted a hip roof and a cathedral ceiling with no columns in it. 
I tried to tell him that it wouldn't carry it's own weight and he finally called the building inspector that told him the same thing. 
I have never seen a 60 + year old man as broken hearted as he was. He told me that day he planned on setting his office to one side and being able to allow people to drive right into his office. Why I don't know but he said he had his heart set on a cathedral ceiling and hip roof and I told him that he could order truss but they would be high priced and that was out of the question for that dumb A?? Millionaire. 
I like the old man and went home thinking about what he'd said and bang, "I can build it out of steel! "
I spent all night drawing the blue prints for that and didn't even tell him what they were the next morning until he had run the off as real blueprints for me, and that is a process almost like developing photo graphs.
I designed it with, let's just say it was all box tubing. 1" x 1", 1" x 2", and 2" x 4", and I had the most of it framed when Chester came out and told me "Come in, a plane just crashed into the twin towers. 
At that time they were showing it live, with the first crash behind us, but we set there and wham, the second plane hit and I couldn't believe what I was seeing unfold right before my eyes. 
My first thoughts were exactly what the gubbernuts wanted everyone to think, but the split second the first tower started falling, before it god half way down I told Chester, that is BS, that building was rigged. I had worked on building smaller than they were and you can pass people on the beams as if it were a danged side walk. 
I have welded them things and by God, even a dozen rosebud torches could heat one of those things up enough to give way in a whole danged day. 

And another thing that keeps getting said is that the plane knocked the beam insulation off, leaving the steel to the fire. 

Has any of you every had to remove insulation so you could weld another piece of steel to it?? 
I didn't think so. 

I have a 4" wide masonry chisel that had an eight inch handle on it that I welded a second shaft to make it 16" long, just for that purpose. 
It takes an hour or more to clean out a hole just to weld a 6" I-Beam to one that has already been sprayed??
And yes, before you ask, the Goodyear Plant here was also built around the time the twin towers were, during the mid to late 60's. and it was about 1998 or 99 that I worked on that job. And one would think that this would be the same type of insulation they used in the towers and the age would haven't changed it that soon.
That type of insulation will repel a solid blow from a very sharp coal chisel when struck hard with a 5 LB. beater. 
Every time I had to remove the insulation I would sharpen that chisel before I started and I don't think that I ever finished cleaning one off without sharping it again. 
And just try to burn that stuff off with a cutting torch. It just glows and laughs at you. 

Ranger


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

Watcher, my wife doesn't even know of some of the things I did when I was in the Army. 
There some things that you just simply know will never leave your lips. Because doing so, is a sure fire way of going to sleep at night and never waking up again. 
But I feel like you already know that to be a fact.

Ranger


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Darren said:


> Did you watch the video? The 30 to 40 firefighters at the presentation had a collective OSM when that video was shown. That was performed by UL in their labs. It explains exactly why the Twin Towers had much more fuel load than many would expect. Who worries about that when you're in a sprinklered building?
> 
> The problem was brought home when we heard the last radio transmission of a firefighter that got trapped and died in a burning house built with modern materials. Not far from here two fire fighters died inside a house trailer when the conditions changed before they could react. They literally died in their tracks with virtually no warning again due to the same materials that were in the Twin Towers.
> 
> ...


Keep trying but I've been making these points for years and you can provide them will all the facts, figures, videos and calculations you want and they'll just call you part of the great cover up, a fool, stupid or a liar. They KNOW burning jet fuel can't heat steel to the point of elasticity. When presented with video footage and numbers they will deny it because all those videos and numbers are produced by other conspirators to fool the dumb people but they are too smart to buy into the conspiracy.

Forget the fact that w/o a google search they can't tell you the what tensile, compressive and shear forces are nor what the difference between stress and strain. Forget the fact they have never calculated the amount of C4 or TNT needed in a charge to cut an I beam or punch a hole of a specific size in a reenforce concrete wall of a specific thickness, much less set and detonated such charges. Forget that because all that matters is they saw a video, or several videos, on the internet showing them the _truth!_


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

BadFordRanger said:


> Watcher, my wife doesn't even know of some of the things I did when I was in the Army.
> There some things that you just simply know will never leave your lips. Because doing so, is a sure fire way of going to sleep at night and never waking up again.
> But I feel like you already know that to be a fact.
> 
> Ranger


You can keep small unit things under the radar but you are not going to keep a company size raid into a foreign land under wraps for long. You_ might_ be able to hide under "plausible deniability" for a while and no one may ever be able to prove 100% you were involved but there will be plenty of 'circumstantial evidence' point toward you. Do you really think what Air America was doing in Asia wasn't known by almost every foreign government and a lot of reporters?

Large scale ops like this would have been do NOT stay hidden this long with this many people looking into them. There's too many things to keep under wraps. You'd have to make sure NO ONE found any detcord, blasting cap or demowire fragments. You'd have to have kept your demo teams from being seen in the weeks they'd need to place the charges. You'd have to make sure some low level bozo didn't want to impress his girl or boy friend or want to get even with the government or has some other ax to grind. Ever heard of Edward Snowden or Jonathan Pollard? Then there's cash incentive. Can you image how much money a major news org would pay to someone for info showing there WAS a conspiracy? How about the book deals and speaking fees? History is full of people who sold out their nation and even fellows for a few (or a lot) bits of silver.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

BadFordRanger said:


> I know how you feel Sandra. I was working for a man and was in the middle of building him a basement shop and an ground level garage on top of it.
> I had dug and poured the footings, laid the blocks and brick and poured the floor in the shop, and then I had hung all the steel, sheeted it and poured the Garage floor, and laid a double brick wall and was ready for the roof structure, and he came out with the architects blue print for the roof.
> It didn't take me five minutes if that long and I told Chester "this isn't going to work being stick built."
> He wanted a hip roof and a cathedral ceiling with no columns in it.
> ...


I think if you check you will find that the fire proofing in the WTC at the level where the fire was was not that good (they were forced to stop using asbestos). A quick google search found this: http://www.fireengineering.com/arti...e-rebirth/fireproofing-at-the-wtc-towers.html


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

watcher said:


> Keep trying but I've been making these points for years and you can provide them will all the facts, figures, videos and calculations you want and they'll just call you part of the great cover up, a fool, stupid or a liar. They KNOW burning jet fuel can't heat steel to the point of elasticity. When presented with video footage and numbers they will deny it because all those videos and numbers are produced by other conspirators to fool the dumb people but they are too smart to buy into the conspiracy.
> 
> Forget the fact that w/o a google search they can't tell you the what tensile, compressive and shear forces are nor what the difference between stress and strain. Forget the fact they have never calculated the amount of C4 or TNT needed in a charge to cut an I beam or punch a hole of a specific size in a reenforce concrete wall of a specific thickness, much less set and detonated such charges. Forget that because all that matters is they saw a video, or several videos, on the internet showing them the _truth!_


I'm not surprised there was no comment on the Underwriting Laboratories' test. I'm not sure when the test was conducted, but the results explained why we're seeing house fires that are much worse than those encountered by the older members of the fire service. The test has nothing to do with 9/11. The instructor never mentioned 9/11. The seminar addressed the new methods of home construction which ensure that collapse will happen much faster.

In the past if the floor felt shakey, you had time to get out. Now it's too late. If it moves, it's going and you're going down. The video was shown as an example of changes that have worsened incidents. After seeing the video, it should be obvious to anyone why the Twin Towers were doomed.


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## sdnapier (Aug 13, 2010)

Ernie said:


> I, personally, do not prep. We live. Something is provided each and every day. My labor, such as it is, serves as a form of education to me much more than it serves to provide a living. No longer do the things I do "provide" for us, but rather they serve as a vehicle for God to instruct me and bless me.


Pretty Paisley, God does speak to us today and you are listening.

Ernie, you are who we will need to defend ourselves from when you come knocking because you are now desperately needing food and will take it by any means possible. I too have a parable: the ant and the grasshopper


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

sdnapier said:


> Ernie, you are who we will need to defend ourselves from when you come knocking because you are now desperately needing food and will take it by any means possible. I too have a parable: the ant and the grasshopper


Um, what? 

Are you implying that I'm likely to turn into some sort of bandit when the apocalypse hits and go killing people like you for food? 

That sort of came out of left field. Heh. I'm not even offended by it.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Ernie - your comment about not prepping, well, I think you are wrong.

You are prepping and adapting to the lifestyle that may come, even to a somewhat extreme manner. 

In that you are learning to live it now, when if comes it will be a bump in the road. Just as it was to my GreatGrandparents that lived miles from town, on a dirt road, farmed with mule and washed clothes beside the large stream/small river that ran on their property. They were not prepping, but nothing much that happened in town phased them. I put you in that category now, or approaching it. 

You have stepped mostly out of the 21st century and practicing back in the 19th century or so.

{and your posts these days astonish me at times. When I remember the Ernie before the hiatus from the forum}


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

AngieM2 said:


> Ernie - your comment about not prepping, well, I think you are wrong.


Well, I'd expect that the moderator of a prepping forum would think so.  I'd be shocked if if were otherwise.

To a large degree, I'm aware that my viewpoint on this is sort of as popular as a warthog at a cat show, or a pig in a mosque at Ramadan. 

HOWEVER, since a few years ago I believe exactly as the rest of you do and was very vocal about it ... I like to present my new viewpoint here as either an alternative to mainstream though, or perhaps as an indication of what a prepper's mindset might eventually transform into.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

AngieM2 said:


> {and your posts these days astonish me at times. When I remember the Ernie before the hiatus from the forum}


Heh. I'm not very fond of that guy.

Here's kind of the deal.

I lived through SHTF over the past year or so. Multiple times. Almost every week it was TEOTWAWKI.

You know all those things y'all fear? No job? Running out of food? Running out of money? Running out of gasoline? Sitting in the dark? Not having water to drink?

Been there. Multiple times now. It doesn't scare me anymore. Last time it happened the wife and I just laughed it off. We were actually kind of surprised that neither of us were stressed out about it. We had $8 and no idea when more money would come in. Wife said, "Time to pray!" And thirty minutes later someone bought an expensive kitchen set of knives and we had $200. 

The gift of faith. Once you get it, you will be _fearless_.


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## sdnapier (Aug 13, 2010)

Ernie said:


> Um, what?
> 
> Are you implying that I'm likely to turn into some sort of bandit when the apocalypse hits and go killing people like you for food?
> 
> That sort of came out of left field. Heh. I'm not even offended by it.


I was not trying to be offensive. You said you don't prep so yes, you probably would turn into a bandit. What is the alternative when you are starving&#8230;? 
I would too if I had nothing and I was hungry enough. And just because I prep doesn't mean I'm not busy living. 
My days are full and satisfying and my (prep) garden time is the best time of the day.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

sdnapier said:


> I was not trying to be offensive. You said you don't prep so yes, you probably would turn into a bandit. What is the alternative when you are starvingâ¦? I would too if I had nothing and I was hungry enough.


That must be why you think I would become a bandit. Because you would. 

So is that the basic assumption? That everyone without food would turn into a bandit? So the people who don't prep now would turn into a bandit right away, and the people who have 6 months of food would turn bandit in 6 months? The people who have a year of food saved up will turn bandit after a year is up?

I don't think it particularly works that way. It didn't work that way the several times we ran out of money and food over the past year. Why would it work that way in some future point?

Great quote by George Mueller ...

"If God fails me this time then it will be the first time."


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Heh. What a great example of the fear-based mindset.

The belief that everyone without food will just suddenly turn into cannibal zombie looter bandits. That no moral code could possibly withstand hunger. 

It's not even remotely accurate. Even if you ignore the (perhaps unintended) aspersions cast upon MY character, we can look at hundreds and hundreds of historical examples where it simply did not happen. Where people of all cultures, all civilizations, all belief systems, and all religions demonstrated a very high degree of discipline and moral character under duress.

"So they stood an' was still to the Birken'ead drill, soldier an' sailor too."

I don't know what happened in your life to give you such a low regard of your fellow man, but it is to be deeply pitied.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Ah, Ernie, I expect you to hang around. You're part of the group here, even as you change.

(P.S. It's much easier to be a mod with this Ernie :dance


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

AngieM2 said:


> (P.S. It's much easier to be a mod with this Ernie :dance


I wouldn't have thought so. It seems the threads I participate in still seem to have a higher degree of ending up with the trashcan symbol out beside them.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Ernie said:


> That must be why you think I would become a bandit. Because you would.
> 
> So is that the basic assumption? That everyone without food would turn into a bandit? So the people who don't prep now would turn into a bandit right away, and the people who have 6 months of food would turn bandit in 6 months? The people who have a year of food saved up will turn bandit after a year is up?
> 
> ...


Hunger will drive people to do things they never thought they would. What would you do if your children were starving and you knew there was someone with food who refused to help you?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Heh. What a great example of the fear-based mindset.
> 
> The belief that everyone without food will just suddenly turn into cannibal zombie looter bandits. That no moral code could possibly withstand hunger.
> 
> ...



You don't need "everyone" to do it, it only takes one starving man with a weapon to destroy everything you have spent a life time building. Thinking that if things fall apart everyone will pull together so they can either all make it or starve as a group is just as off the wall as thinking everyone will go rouge after a week w/o food.





Ernie said:


> I don't know what happened in your life to give you such a low regard of your fellow man, but it is to be deeply pitied.


I have seen my fellow man and below the surface he's not much better than an animal. Do a little research on how your fellow man reacts when the thin veneer of civilization is breached. Do an internet video of "rioting" and watch your fellow man. Read about what your fellow man did Cambodia, the former Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Uganda. Read about how your fellow man acted in the 1930s and 1940s Japan and Germany; in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s in the USSR.

Need something closer to home? Go to your local and state police and ask to see their case records and see how your fellow man treats his fellow man.

Want something more profound? Study your Bible. Study about how even the kings of God's chosen fell and did horrible things.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

If you look for the bad in mankind, that's what you will find. 

Do you think I'm some naive fellow who has never seen evil? Never had to face it at the door? Never had to face it in my own heart and head?

I'm saying it's a choice, and plenty of men and women have stood the test. Some on this forum will fail the test, and some will not.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

The man who looks for proof of evil will never be disappointed.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

As I have said before, I am not very good on the computer so you have to actually type in the second line below and click search to get this site, but can any of you nay sayers explain any of the questions on this site about the collapse of WTC 7???


Hidden Facts of 9/11 - WTC7.net

www.wtc7.net/articles/kimball/thirdskyscraper.html - Similar

Ranger

PS. Well, I was wrong again. That is getting to be a habit with this computer. All you need to do is click and read.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

watcher said:


> I think if you check you will find that the fire proofing in the WTC at the level where the fire was was not that good (they were forced to stop using asbestos). A quick google search found this: http://www.fireengineering.com/arti...e-rebirth/fireproofing-at-the-wtc-towers.html


That isn't what I ask watcher! I ask if you have ever had to remove the insulation off of a beam in order to weld another beam to it? 
That is a simple yes or no question. 
And as I said before, I didn't think so, because had you ever had to do so, that any of the beams, girders, truss, etc. that wasn't taken out by the aircraft strike, still had the insulation on them. 
And no, Watcher. They did not stop using the asbestos insulation through out the entire building process of the WTC's. And even if they had, what took it's place is just a hard to get off a beam as the asbestos was. 

I have a friend that is about like you Watcher. We known each other for about ten years now and he is a machinist and a welder/fabricator so he knows a lot, but he is forever telling me "You can't do that! "
And he is also forever telling me and I quote him saying this a dozen time so far "----, I didn't think that would work!" 
He is about ten years younger than I am and he didn't go to work until he finished high school, and he was a year behind because he was in a bad automobile accident when he was 12 that laid him up in the hospital for months and he didn't make that grade. 
I on the other had began learning the construction trade at a tender age of seven and had completed welding school before my 17th birthday. 
Si in all actuality I have over 20 years more working experience than he does, plus there is something else that he fails to understand! 
It never took me long to master any of the trades which I have worked in, and after I did so, I simply got bored of doing the same thing day in and day out and not having anything else to learn in the trade sent me looking for something else that I could learn. I would start as a helper on a new trade and become a foreman in that trade in less than a year. It never took me more than a year to learn a new trade. 
I answered an ad in the paper once that wanted a pipe fitters helper. 
But he wasn't looking for a welder that could fit pipe though. He needed a helper for a sprinkler system company using screw in black pipe.
But he hired me and went to Richmond, Va., to work on the sprinkler systems in a new college building that was being built. 
All the pipe was laid out in the lay down yard, and at first he started looking at the blueprints and telling to get so & so number pipe. 
Well as soon as he got to where he didn't need help I went to the blue print and had the next pipe already laid there before he finished with that one. By lunch time, I already had laid the pipe out for the rest of the room he was doing and the next one in line and when we got back from lunch, he said "Heck, since you know so much about what's going on, you start on the next line right there," showing me on the blue print, which was a duplicate of what he was doing on the other side of a couple hundred wall. No door or anything so we didn't see what each other was doing. 
He never checked on me until the end of that day, and when he walked into the room I was tightening a piece of pipe up in, he said "Da?? boy, you're already ahead of me!" 
That was back in the early 70's and he had hired me on @ $3.50 an hour, but my very first paycheck was for $6.75 per hour. 
That Mr. Watcher, is how fast I learn new things. And I have been studying the gubbernuts screw ups since the Waco Massacre.

It is like the jarheads used to tell me, because I was in the 82nd Airborne, only two things falls from the sky and that is Bird Shi$ & fools. 
When it comes to the Gubbernuts massacres, as I call them, there are four types of people that will tell you what they think. 

#1: This would be the sheeple that says heck, it didn't hurt me, so why should I care? 

#2: Would be the sheeple that believes anything the Gubbernuts tells them as gospel without ever looking to see what truly happened!

#3: And then you have the people like Tracey, my friend that doesn't believe some one can do things, such as use spring water to cool a home with, which are the type of people that "THINKS" they know everything, and then come back after you prove it and say "Danged, I didn't think that would work!"
#4: And then you have the people that will go out of their way to avoid *ONE HUGE PART OF A COVER UP * and say things like, well I haven't looked at the way Building 7 was built yet, but I know it should have fallen just like the other two did and why do you say that?

Is it that you truly believe the crap that the Gubbernuts put out about the collapses, or is there an anterior motive behind it. :hrm:

Give me an explanation why WTC building 7 fell, if you can?

Ranger


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

I personally think it is a good idea to store extra food, fuel, water, and have a backup heat source (especially up north). But if you're trusting mainly on your preps and ignore God, they will run out eventually and you'll have nothing more to sustain you.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

I really wouldn't say I was preparing for the worst case scenario and 9/11 has nothing to do with my prepping.

I had to use my preps over a decade ago when I was unemployed for over a year. Had we not had our preps, life would have gotten very rough, as it was it was more like an extended 'stay at home and get things done' vacation.

I pray that nothing bad ever happens for me or anyone else to need our preps, but I am ready if it does.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Ernie said:


> A river of burning fuel would have poured down every stairwell and elevator shaft in the building. It would have poured out the sides of the building.


Except like any bomb, it all ignited within a split second.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

BadFordRanger said:


> As I have said before, I am not very good on the computer so you have to actually type in the second line below and click search to get this site, but can any of you nay sayers explain any of the questions on this site about the collapse of WTC 7???
> 
> 
> Hidden Facts of 9/11 - WTC7.net
> ...


In just a quick scan I found a problem. In 'Fact 5' it states " five days after the collapse of Building 7, the surface temperature of a section of its rubble was 1,341Âº F.http://www.wtc7.net/articles/kimball/thirdskyscraper.html#sdendnote8sym This high a temperature is indicative of the use of explosives." How is high temps linked to explosives? Considering the building had been on fire might that not have had something to do with the temps?

'Fact 8' shows that #7 failed in the same way as the towers. Fire weakened the floor supports causing them sag and pull away from the exoskeleton which lead to the floor failing. Once one failed it fell onto the one below it. The central columns and exoskeleton would funnel the debris.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

BadFordRanger said:


> That isn't what I ask watcher! I ask if you have ever had to remove the insulation off of a beam in order to weld another beam to it?
> That is a simple yes or no question.


No. 



BadFordRanger said:


> And as I said before, I didn't think so, because had you ever had to do so, that any of the beams, girders, truss, etc. that wasn't taken out by the aircraft strike, still had the insulation on them.
> And no, Watcher. They did not stop using the asbestos insulation through out the entire building process of the WTC's. And even if they had, what took it's place is just a hard to get off a beam as the asbestos was.


Having asbestos fireproofing on the floors below where the aircraft hit would not have done a thing to prevent the failure of the beams where the aircraft hit.




BadFordRanger said:


> That Mr. Watcher, is how fast I learn new things. And I have been studying the gubbernuts screw ups since the Waco Massacre.


You have your mind made up and no matter how many facts are put before you, you won't change it. You are always telling me how much experience you have with welding and such. How much do you have with explosives and demo? Have you ever used a cratering charge? A ribbon charge? Ever calculated the amount of TNT needed to cut a tree? Ever cut an I beam with C4? Ever linked charges with detcord?




BadFordRanger said:


> Give me an explanation why WTC building 7 fell, if you can?
> 
> Ranger


From what I've read it fell for the same reason the towers fell. Fire in the upper floors caused the floor supports to weaken and pull away from the outer wall and collapse onto the floors below which caused a cascade failure.

The idea of a vast government conspiracy and the it having the ability to cover up something this big for this long boarders on the ridiculous. Its like the people who say the moon landings were just a vast government conspiracy and they have the "facts" to prove it.


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

I have read most of the posts in this thread, and have chosen to stay out of the debate over government conspiracy or not. I will say, with all due respect to everyone on either side of the discussion, I can see and understand some points made by both sides.
Is it plausable that 911 was an inside job, well, I suppose it could possibly be.
Is it possible that it was just as it appeared, a terrorist attack against the Usa, yes, that is possible too.

My reason for posting now is to nring up a point that I haven't seen mentioned. On debating how a fire could or could not have weakened the structure to the point of catastophic failure, fire alone, probably not, but noone has looked into the effects of sonic shock.

In my opinion, jet impact into the structure weakened it, sonic shock waves could have had just as devestating effect from the explosion, and the weakened structure from those two events, coupled with fire and the collapse of the now unsupported weight above the point of impact, all combined could easily be, in my opinion, what brought the towers down.

Look at videos of some early a bomb testing, structures built in the testground area were decimated even though not touched by the bomb or burned by fire, sonic waves from the blast itself took them down.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Issues with the fire insulation before 9/11 were known and never corrected. The towers were built during the time of transition from asbestos to non-asbestos insulation. Turns out the insulation was missing in some areas. Fell off in sheets from others due to rust and had been applied before any tests were developed to determine if the new formulations would work.

http://www.fireengineering.com/arti...e-rebirth/fireproofing-at-the-wtc-towers.html


"BY ROGER G. MORSE
I investigated the fireproofing in both World Trade Center towers over approximately a 10-year period between the early 1990s and early June 2000, the last time I was in the towers. 
There were problems with the fireproofing in the World Trade Towers that may have rendered them vulnerable to fire. These problems are not unique to the WTC; I have observed similar problems with the fireproofing in many high-rise buildings in the United States and Europe. 
*FIREPROOFING TYPES*

(_Editor's note_: "Fireproofing" is the name commonly given to fire-resistive coatings applied to structural steel components of high-rise buildings to protect them from the heat of a fire. Fireproofing is a critical fire safety feature of steel high-rise structures because steel begins to elongate between approximately 800Â°F and 1,000Â°F, temperatures easily reached by normal residential and commercial contents fires. Building codes require its utilization as well as its proper application. Fire codes require its constant maintenance. 
Four different fireproofing materials were used during the construction of the World Trade Towers. 
The initial material used for most of the fireproofing (later withdrawn because it contained asbestos) was a mineral fiber formulation consisting of about 20 percent chrysotile asbestos, 60 to 65 percent mineral wool, and the remainder made of gypsum and Portland cement binder. This was sprayed on structural steel up to the 36th floor and parts of the 37th and 38th floors of the North Tower. 
Above this point in the North Tower, and for the entire structure of the South Tower, the spray was an asbestos-free successor to the original product consisting of mineral wool and binder. These formulations were applied to core columns, the outside face of the exterior walls and columns, the long-span steel joists (trusses) that supported the concrete floors, and trench headers for the underfloor raceway system. 







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The third type of spray, a lightweight gypsum plaster with vermiculite aggregate, was used on the inside face of the exterior walls and columns and on the seats supporting the long-span joists. This material contained no asbestos. 
The fourth formulation was a "hard coat" consisting of 80-percent chrysotile asbestos set in a matrix of Portland cement. This was sprayed over the mineral fiber fireproofing in locations where it was thought that the more friable fireproofing material could suffer from vibration or air erosion. As such, this "hard coat" was used in the high-speed elevator shafts between the concourse level and the 44th- and 78th-floor sky lobbies in both towers, where it was thought that air currents from the "piston effect" of the elevators could damage the fireproofing. This material was also applied to the ceilings of the four mechanical equipment floors (in both towers) and on the ceilings immediately below these floors. 







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The WTC towers were built at the time of transition from asbestos-containing fireproofing to nonasbestos formulations. The nonasbestos fireproofing protecting some of the floors, including the floors impacted by the airplanes, was in some ways inferior to asbestos-containing fireproofing. The nonasbestos materials are less dense, less uniform, and less cohesive to the surface. Nonasbestos fireproofing materials were rushed into use, in some instances without the benefit of full-scale fire tests. To make matters worse, there were no field tests to determine if fireproofing materials were properly installed until 1977, when the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) published tests for adhesion, cohesion, thickness, and density of applied fireproofing. If these tests had existed in the early 1970s, when the towers were built, then the deficiencies outlined below could have been discovered and corrected. 
*APPLICATION DEFICIENCIES*

Fireproofing was applied directly to the long joists that supported each of the floors. Inspections of the floors with asbestos-containing fireproofing (up to the 38th floor in the North Tower) found that there were numerous areas where the fireproofing had never been applied. Top and bottom chords and truss web members were exposed, and the red lead on the trusses was clearly visible in many locations. Photo 1 shows a truss with fireproofing missing from its end where it meets the outside wall. Also, the fireproofing was frequently thinner than the 3/4 inch described in the Federal Emergency Management Agency-funded ASCE BPAT report on the collapse of the towers. Many of the problems observed were clearly the result of poor workmanship. 
However, the nature of the structures that were fireproofed and application methods used could also contribute to the problem. Applying fireproofing to a long-span or any type of joist construction is difficult. The round rods and small angles making up a truss are difficult targets for the installer. Spray fireproofing materials are typically applied from the floor with an extended spray nozzle. The installer may be unable to reach or see certain areas of the trusses that must be covered. This frequently results in thin or absent fireproofing on surfaces hidden from the floor by the bottom of steel members (photo 2). In the WTC, this resulted in sections of the top surface of the bottom chord of the trusses receiving an inadequate coat of fireproofing. These are deficiencies that would have been easily discovered by the ASTM field quality assurance tests for adhesion, cohesion, thickness, and density had these test methods existed at the time of construction. 







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I inspected core columns up to the 78th floor but was unable to access them above that point. These inspections revealed that the bond of fireproofing on core columns had failed in many locations and the fireproofing was falling off the columns in floor-high sheets. Photo 3, taken in 1994, shows a core column from which the fireproofing had fallen off in a sheet that is several stories high. The red circle and date was the Port Authority's response to the missing fireproofing. This resulted because the steel had not been properly prepared at the time of the initial spray application. Rust scale had not been removed prior to applying the fireproofing. The fireproofing had adhered well to the rust scale, but the rust was coming loose from the steel (photo 4).







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Examining the rust, I discovered that cement paste from the fireproofing had run behind flakes of the rust, indicating that the rust existed at the time the fireproofing was applied. The result was that the fireproofing adhered loosely to the columns and would fall off in large sheets. This defect was never corrected and still existed in June 2000 and probably at the time of the plane crashes. It is possible the fireproofing was missing from sections of columns on the impact floors or that some or all of the loosely adhered fireproofing fell off with the force of the impacts. This is a defect that would have been easily discovered by the ASTM adhesion and cohesion quality assurance test, had this standard existed at the time of construction. 







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In addition, there were a number of areas in the elevator shafts where fireproofing on core beams had been knocked off by elevator cables or had been damaged by foot traffic during installation of the elevator equipment (photo 5).
Fireproofing on joist-to-wall connections was also deficient. The long-span joists were supported by an angle seat welded to the face of the exterior columns. The fireproofing applied in some places was so thin that the angle seat, the shape of the bolts connecting the joist to the seat, and the bolts holding together the spandrel panels could be readily discerned. According to building drawings, these areas should have had a fire rating of four hours. For such a rating, properly applied fireproofing should be at least one to 11/2 inches thick. At this thickness, the bolts and even the angle seat itself would not be discernable (photo 6).







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There were a number of locations in the WTC towers where the work of other trades obstructed the installation of the fireproofing. This is a common problem in high-rise construction in which ductwork, conduits, and piping are installed before the fireproofing. Building codes should be strengthened, requiring that fireproofing be installed prior to the work of other trades. This is the only way that a continuous and uniform layer of fireproofing can be applied. 
*LACK OF QUALITY ASSURANCE TESTING*

The WTC was built before there were accepted standards for determining if the fireproofing as applied in the field would perform properly. Would the material remain on the steel (adhesion), resist physical damage (cohesion), insulate properly (thickness and density), and behave as a fire retardant? Architects relied on the "testing" undertaken by Underwriters Laboratories. However, without field quality assurance tests, there was no way of knowing if the properties of the applied fireproofing matched those of the material subjected to the UL test. The previously discussed tests would not become available until years after the completion of the WTC. For example, the ASTM test for adhesion would have detected the bonding defects of the fireproofing on core columns. This test and the ASTM test for thickness and density would have determined the adequacy of the spray fireproofing on the floor joists.
The WTC should not be considered unique in this regard. The fireproofing in any building constructed before the ASTM standards became available in 1977 should be considered suspect. 
*ACCUMULATED DAMAGE TO FIREPROOFING*

There is another important aspect to this issue. There is no existing requirement in any building or occupancy code to inspect the fireproofing in a building periodically to determine if it has degraded through gradual physical damage. This is even true for new construction where the fireproofing is installed and tested early in the construction process. Successive work by many trades often damages and removes whole sections of fireproofing. In the WTC, the fireproofing coatings had been damaged by later construction and renovation in many locations.
*LESSONS LEARNED*

In considering the possible causes of the collapse of the WTC towers, the possibility that the initial application of fire-resistive coatings was deficient must be considered. The implications of this are far ranging. The fire safety of buildings depends on the fire-resistance ratings' successfully resulting in buildings that stay standing despite fire damage. Prior to the collapse of the WTC towers, it was thought that adherence to the fire-resistance ratings in the building codes would result in buildings that were safe for occupants and for those who fight fires. However, the entire scheme currently used to make these determinations must be called into question. If the WTC towers were properly protected but fell anyway, then this would indicate that the fire-resistance ratings and structural reliability of buildings as they are now built are insufficiently protective. However, if the buildings failed because the fireproofing was improperly applied, then the standards for fireproofing application and maintenance need to be strengthened. Peoples' lives depend on properly analyzing these issues and then taking appropriate corrective action. 
*Deficient firestopping*

Deficient firestopping provides an avenue for fire spread. Columns, girders and beams are commonly protected with spray asbestos insulation or a composition material. Spray insulation has been tested to offer four-hour test ratings on columns, three hours on beams and girders. 
Test conditions, however, do not match actual conditions in the field. Insulation adhesion may be ineffective because of rust. Frequently, insulation is applied to rusted metal that has not been properly treated before application; the insulation's consistency may vary; its application may be inconsistent; or it may be dislodged during original and new construction and maintenance. 
_Source: HighRise/Fire & Life Safety, by John T. O'Hagan, Fire Engineering, 1977, pp. 23-28 _
Photos by author. 
*ROGER G. MORSE* is a member of the American Institute of Architects and director of Morse Associates, which focuses on forensic building investigation."













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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

I'm going to stay out of the 9/11 conspiracy theories, but I did want to weigh in about Ernie. While we don't always agree on things, I think that it is unlikely that he would ever become part of the zombie horde trying to take food and supplies for others. While he no longer preps, he does have skills that could be bartered (like knife making & sharpening) and he has all of the basic prepping skills. I'm sure that he knows how to build things,dig an outhouse and raise animals and grow crops. These are skills that would be highly sought after in a SHTF situation. 

Every time we leave our homes and supplies, we are at risk of being caught by a disaster and being far from our stockpiles. Ernie chooses to live this type of lifestyle now by opting NOT to prep. There will be little adjustment for his family if the SHTF. His strong faith causes him to feel that all of his needs will be provided for. He won't be part of the horde...He'll be waiting faithfully for divine provision. He can't be a lazy man to live the lifestyle that he chooses. No lazy man would choose to live as a homesteader. I'm sure that he'll be praying, planting beans and chasing his chickens and sheep down in order to feed his family.


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

I don't want to get too drawn into the 9/ 11 discussion, I will mention Steve Pieczenik, he was deputy assistant secretary of state from I think it was 1976 till the last Bush left office, I heard him on a radio interview stating that army intelligence had discovered the planned attacks on the world trade center. A general called the white house to inform them and he was told to stand down. Later the general received a call back from the white house stating that he was not to say anything to anyone including the news media or he would be removed from the military without his pension. After 9/11 the general told Mr. Pieczenik about the calls. So the white house knew in advance and at least did nothing, some think the government was actually involved. We will probably never know the whole truth of the matter. Same can be said for the Aurora Colorado shooting lots of stuff wrong there. Same with Sandy Hook shooting lots of stuff wrong with that, for what it's worth I read an article recently that said an official in the department of education came forward to a news outlet and claimed that Sandy Hook was a drill and no children were actually killed, problem is he refused to be publicly identified for fear of reprisal from the Obama administration. So their is no way of verifying this. Others have done in depth investigations and have come up with very troubling findings. The U.S. government isn't above false flag events in Kennedy's time as president the military wanted to kill U.S. civilians and blame it on Cuba, Kennedy said NO.


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## Calico Katie (Sep 12, 2003)

I don't believe in Big Foot, the chupacabra, or that the US government conspired to blow up the WTC on 9/11. Because I believe in God and His goodness, I also believe in the existence of an evil being who delights in creating chaos and dissension. I prep for economic purposes because there are any number of manmade or natural events that can make life difficult for me if I don't have a bag of rice and some beans put back. I believe that God gave me the ability and the intelligence to make preparations to provide for myself. 

If anyone doesn't agree with me, that's their business. Frankly, when people start saying that anyone who doesn't agree with them is an idiot, I have to wonder why it's so important for them to convince everyone else that they're right and everybody else is wrong. There's been a mighty judgmental tone to a lot of these posts. Let's all tend to our knitting 'cause winter will be here again before you know it.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

Katie, may I ask you this question? 
Now, a half century later, do you believe that there was a government conspiracy to murder President Kennedy?
The real truth still isn't known about that, nor who all was involved, but what does it matter. they are all dead now anyway, Right? 
After Bush and Chaney are dead and gone, it will filter out about the lies involved here. 
And can I ask you why some people will stay on a single thread such as this one, and do there very best to make everyone believe their BS? 
I mean if they are so sure that there was no wrong done, why waste their time trying to put down any stupid conspiracy theory idiots such as myself? 
I mean, why would some people waste their time on such an idiot other than alterative reasons? 
Does that make you wonder about anything? 

Godspeed

Ranger


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

If you are looking for a bogey man, I suggest you consider Saudi Arabia. They have manipulated us since the first oil embargo and the formation of OPEC. From which country did the 9/11 conspirators originate? Who wanted us to attack Syria? Who did Saddam Hussein really threaten? It wasn't us.

There was a book written by a reformed terrorist who detailed the honorific, the word is correct, process by which he applied for and got funding from a Saudi. He described being coached on how to approach a sheik, what gift to present and what demeanor to adopt during the audience when granted. IIRC he walked away with $100,000.

For those who stoke an animus towards a particular president, I believe you're off base. All of the presidents since the first oil embargo have acted in the belief that the stoppage of Middle East oil would be devastating to our economy. 

Like it or not, we've been slaves to oil for forty years. With the Saudis on record as hostile to fracking, it should be obvious they have never had our best interests at heart. If I was going to chase a rumor, I'd look into those implicating the Saudis for 9/11. Our government was caught flat footed as usual. 

Here's another person who was coached on how to meet and greet the Saudi monarch. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words. You always want to be on good terms with your ruler.


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

You stepped on your on tongue that time Darren.
Take a guess where I went during the gas shortage in the 70's when we had lines at the gas stations almost all over the United States? 
I was drilling wells in Va. when it started and it was nearly impossible to get enough gas to get t a job 60 miles away from home, put 10 to 15 gallons in the machine and then get back home every day. 
I got on the phone and ran up a long distance bill, but I found me a job welding in Morgan City, Louisiana and being scared to get caught with out enough gas to get there, I caught a bus down there.
Guess what was going on down there? 
It wasn't any gas shortage. 
I went to work welding up caps to put on the oil wells that were being used to cap the oil wells off as soon as they were drilled in the Gulf of Mexico. 
Don't try to tell me about the oil shortages, because I worked through them on 42 cents a gallon of gas. 
Ten bucks would top the tank off in my 1969 Pontiac Firebird with a 400 engine that really drink a lot of it when I kept the pedal to the metal as I did back then. 
Mean time, my fathers well machine set still because of the gas shortage. 
Now you tell me, Darren, who was over the gas shortage? 
Was it someone from the Middle East that capped the wells in the Gulf and caused the oil shortage???

I don't think so!

Ranger


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

The oil cartel had more beneficiaries than countries in the Middle East. The uranium cartel took notes and did the same thing. It came down to supply and the origin of that supply. Same thing in the Great Depression. Some families were never inconvenienced in the least.

Thinking something is universal denies the interesting exceptions. The exceptions are worth studying for the clarification they provide. In any case it doesn't mean we weren't enslaved.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

BadFordRanger said:


> the reason they are trying to prepare for the worst scenario and if so, did 9/11/2001 make them see what we face?
> I also wonder if how many believe the governments story about what happened on 9/11?
> 
> Godspeed
> ...


I do not believe the government story about 9/11. I guess that is the simple answer. 


I honestly the "worst case scenario" that most people will ever face will be something relatively small like job loss, illness, bad economy. And having a nice pantry with a "paid-for" home, and firm financial footing will help anyone deal with whatever health or economic issues they would face.


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## sdnapier (Aug 13, 2010)

Calico Katie said:


> I don't believe in Big Foot, the chupacabra...



What?!?!? No Big Foot? No Chupacabra? I bet there aren't any Unicorns either.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Or Nessy


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## Calico Katie (Sep 12, 2003)

Well, unicorns are nice but, sadly, I think they're mostly in little girls coloring books. :angel: Nessy is the real deal, though. We all know that!


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