# Humane society rescues and others



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Humane society rescues and others are In my option on the crazy side.
My wife thinks I need another puppy to raise, I totally disagree and told her the dog has to be at least a year old as I am tired of those darn needle teeth. 
But the real subject of this post is the unreasonable things Humane society rescues and others want. *Most require a fenced in yard*, I live in the country and do not want to fence my yard just to rescue a pound pup. *Some require a home inspection*, That is not going to happen either as I have guns and other hunting pariphnaily handy for when nasty critters show up.
*They also want the dog to be a house dog. *I have a rescued cat that is afraid of sudden movements living in the house that would have a hear attack with a puppy/dog around.

What are these people going to do when all the city slickers with fenced yards and allow home inspections are all puppied out and can not take any more.

I have to admit my pups have always had it ruff. I make them walk with me twice a day except during heavy down pours every dang day. Once boundary training is finished they don't even have to drag my fat butt around.



















Of course if your a hard headed male and want to roam all over you stay on the check cord when out of the pen.










When it is summer hot they have their own kiddy wading pool to cool their paws in. Of course the lab was always laying down in there and pushing her self around on the sides.



















They all have a 10'x10' inside pen with wood floor, a heated insulated house and a out side pen of a minim of 10'x10' too. Old age allows them to take their time on walks and other things. they are not shut in a little cage when I have to leave home for a while to shop or other things.










They get one on one time and special toys to play with too.










Even get to walk the log instead of wading the creek.










Allowed to hunt in snow drifts for mice.










So what is so wrong with being a country pound pup?


Also the last two I was allowed to adopt we paid a fee of over $100.00 One was at the vets two days later and had to stay for 3 days because she was sick racking up a goodly vet bill. 
The last one we paid the adoption fee and 2 weeks later she was also sick and racked up a good vet fee too.

 Al


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

"Ruff"? Fun. They want a sled.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Our local HS does not require a fence. The rescue I work for does not require a fence. Each HS shelter is run independently, so if you looked you may find one that allows outside dogs. I&#8217;ve also noticed that county dog pounds are pretty lenient and do not require home visits.

You might want to let people you meet that you are looking for a young outside dog, especially if you like Labs. It is surprising how many people don&#8217;t understand how big they get and you can often find a nice dog for free through the grapevine.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

As I said!!!!! *They all have a 10'x10' inside pen with wood floor, a heated insulated house, heated water dishes and a out side pen of a minim of 10'x10' too. Old age allows them to take their time on walks and other things too.*

My dogs are not outside dogs they are pampered pooches who I force :doh: to take walks twice a day with me.

Kare has been on pet finder for almost a month now and to find a dog with out all the requirements in Michigan we would have to drive close to 3 hours, spend almost $200 and over $200 for a spayed neutered dog with no health warranty.
Kare just showed me a Male wimlab in Ohio with a 30 month health warranty with micro chip for $350.00.



















I have had Labs, Visula, Springer Spaniels, Shi pei and cockers.


 Al


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Breeders often place older dogs for one reason or another - I had one I rehomed last year, he was just under 12 months of age, but he wasn't growing out the way I'd hoped, and I rehome my retired breeding females at 4-6 years of age to be pampered pets. You can get health-tested dogs that way, without spending big $$ for an 8-week old puppy. Look for show breeders in the breeds you're interested in and let them know you're wanting to take on a washout or a retired breeding dog and you might just luck out.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I have noticed that every shelter has different rules. I got the dog I now own from a reasonable shelter: I would not use a shelter that requires home inspections. That really IS too much!

My cat got used to dogs soon enough, and I keep my new dogs on a leash for 3 days until I am sure there will be no bloodshed. 

My dog goes in and out as he chooses. During good weather he is mostly outside, but he sleeps inside. I approve of this: I figure he can watch the house better if he is inside.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

This what my big mouth asked a puppy rescue in my area. 

Gammy Ellen Where do you get the puppies from? And why do they cost so much?
Like Â· Reply Â· 3 hrs
Katie Schuler
Katie Schuler They come from Kentucky and because our puppies are vaccinated every 14 days, given as many vaccines as possible including Bordatella and monthly flea and HW prevention, vet checks, dewormings, microchip, antibiotics when needed, quarantined, and maintain a rescue ISNT free.
Like Â· Reply Â· 2 hrs
Gammy Ellen
Gammy Ellen Just sound like a bit over the top. Considering they still need to be spayed and neutered. That alone is another $250. Still think its a scam. But that just my opinion.
Like Â· Reply Â· 2 hrs
Katie Schuler
Katie Schuler Then you're welcome to adopt elsewhere. $50 gets refunded after spay/neuter which can be done for $75.
Like Â· Reply Â· 2 hrs
Katie Schuler
Katie Schuler If you would personally like to donate to our vetting and vaccines, dewormer, and dog food, I'm sure that we could lower our costs.
Like Â· Reply Â· 2 hrs


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Katie Schuler
February 26 at 10:48am
PAWS Rescue in Forest Hill has the following puppies available for immediate adoption. Please read under the pictures for their information.
Our adoption fee is $350, $50 is refunded after spay/neuter which is REQUIRED before the pup turns 7 months old. All pups have at least their first vaccine, bordatella vaccine, flea and hw preventative, microchip, dewormings, vet check, and adoption folder with specials. 
Please email [email protected] for an application, do not PM me


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Assuming that heartworm gives you about a six month treatment window, and that dogs can't even be infected by mosquitoes that have not had a 45 day period at 57 degrees or above, I would question the value they are adding by providing heartworm prevention on pups. Heartworm is a whole other scam, perpetrated using "scary hearts in jars" from dogs trapped in mexico. If a vet checks a puppy for heartworm, you should really consider switching vets.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Dogs in the US get heartworm.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

In some parts of the US, yes, but no dog has heartworms at three months old.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I disagree on a month old pup getting heart worms, it depends on it's living conditions and the season of the year it was born. It only has to be bitten by an infected mosquito after being born.

"The bite of an infected mosquito. Thereâs no other way dogs get heartworms. And thereâs no way to tell if a mosquito is infected. Thatâs why prevention is so important."

The Wimlab I mentioned is 9 months old. Kare has shown me those dogs the breeder no longer wants but I will not pay that kind of money for a 5 TO 7 year old dog I can only expect maybe 10 years to have.



Puppy strangles, can you tell? You soon will be spending a good amount of money at a vets.






 Al


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Heartworm treatment is to prevent heartworm. Waiting until the dog has heartworms is a different, more difficult problem.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Animal Shelters are an interesting business.

It takes a lot of work to maintain an Animal Shelter. The good ones are expensive to build. They often require volunteers and donations. Often strings are attached to volunteers and donations.

Those that work for free cleaning cages, hauling feed, mopping floors and walking dogs are vital to the care of shelter animals. It is often a somewhat thankless job. But it also attracts folks with political agendas, crazy cat people and hoarders.
In Michigan there are three basic categories

Animal Control Shelters. Run by the city or county. Limited space, limited funds. Must take in all strays and if no homes can be found, are euthanized. Licensed and inspected by the State. If it costs more to render vet care than the pet will be worth at adoption, they are generally euthanized.

Animal Protection Shelters. Run by animal lovers. They &#8220;adopt&#8221; from Animal Control Shelters and accept owner surrendered pets. They depend on donations to operate. Licensed and inspected by the State. Those that are &#8220;no kill&#8221; soon fill up and cannot accept more pets and result in long &#8220;prison&#8221; terms for the unwanted/unadoptable pets. Those operated by hoarders become overcrowded and subject to waves of disease due to an overworked HVAC system and limited sanitation.

Pet Rescue. Some are run by animal lovers. Some are unlicensed in-home pet stores, receiving owner surrendered pets, stolen pets, pets imported illegally from other states or bought directly from puppy mills. All operate as a non-profit, 501c3. All are unlicensed, uninspected by anyone. They often set up &#8220;adoptions&#8221; in Pet Stores, or operate from Craigslist and Petfinder.com. Some house pets in garages, barns or on chains in back yards.

Generally the public cannot tell the difference. 

Those people that see lots of dogs see the death and injuries caused by vehicles and dog fights when pets are not kept in a fenced area. In Michigan it isn&#8217;t widely acceptable to leave your dog outside in a dog house or on a chain in the winter. It was common when I was growing up.
People working in Animal Shelters love animals and want the animal to be safe and comfortable. Often the rules for proper care of a pocket dog are different from how a farm dog might be kept. So, it becomes as hard to meet the requirements to adopt a dog as it does a child.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Heartworm prevention should be started prior to a dog turning 6 months of age. Heartworm preventatives themselves do not stop a dog from getting heartworm, they only kill the immature larvae before they set up shop in the heart as adult worms. 

If a dog gets an adult heartworm infestation, one of the accepted methods to treat them is called the slow kill method, which entails giving them a specific heartworm preventative medication to kill baby larvae in the bloodstream while waiting for the adult heartworms already in the heart to die. Very effective for a dog with a low load of adult heartworms and less risky than the more $$ fast-kill method.

I give my dogs heartworm prevention meds (ivermectin) every other month, but of course I'd never advise anyone to go against their vet's orders.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

bluemoonluck said:


> Heartworm prevention should be started prior to a dog turning 6 months of age. Heartworm preventatives themselves do not stop a dog from getting heartworm, they only kill the immature larvae before they set up shop in the heart as adult worms.
> 
> If a dog gets an adult heartworm infestation, one of the accepted methods to treat them is called the slow kill method, which entails giving them a specific heartworm preventative medication to kill baby larvae in the bloodstream while waiting for the adult heartworms already in the heart to die. Very effective for a dog with a low load of adult heartworms and less risky than the more $$ fast-kill method.
> 
> I give my dogs heartworm prevention meds (ivermectin) every other month, but of course I'd never advise anyone to go against their vet's orders.


Do what suits you. Not trying to create a debate. 

"The American *Heartworm* Society *does* not recommend the use of monthly *ivermectin* products to *treat* dogs infected with *heartworm* disease. There are several reasons that using melarsomine to *kill* the adult *heartworms* is safer and more effective for your dog than using *ivermectin* monthly."

http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/diseasesandconditions/a/CW-HeartwormSlowKillversusImmiticide.htm


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

alleyyooper said:


> told her the dog has to be at least a year old as I am tired of those darn needle teeth.


When we got our Catahoula pup, we took her for professional training. One comment the trainer made was she had Shark teeth. Our hands and arms were proof.

Luckily her adult teeth are much better and she has stopping biting everything.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Capitalizing on what Blue Moon Luck wrote, I got a beautiful standard poodle for my DD. She has allergies, so I had to get a non shedder. Not a dog typically found in a shelter. Had to be standard because I knew I needed a guard dog

Anyhow, I paid $150 for a one year old male. So, today that would be about $200 or so? A puppy would have been $800 on up at the time. He had been kept as a show possibility. His line was all champions, including world champion. Up to date on shots, groomed, well cared for, basic training. He lived in a house with other dogs and family, not a kennel. Almost perfect conformation, great personality. Wonderful family dog.

My sister got an 18 month old Rottweiler for very cheap by getting a puppy that had been returned. Again, fine pedigree, no health problems, lived with people, and cheap.

So yea, make inquiries to breeders. People bring back dogs for various reasons, or a hunting or show prospect doesn&#8217;t work out, and a 12 month old is much cheaper than a puppy.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I have two purebred (very well bred actually) dogs today that we got because 1) she had her leg broken as a pup and her breeder felt she would not be showable (its a bit shorter than the other back leg). We got her on a contract for a significantly reduced fee. 2) she was a show dog that didn't pass OFA, a wonderful sweet well socialized dog that seems perfectly functionally sound at age 6. She was 3 when we got her. She was given to us because the owner has known us for years. My daughter has a lovely sweet *****, smooth collie, that was given to her at age 1 year because her bite doesn't line up right. She's 12 now and has been a great pet. 

I used to be a breeder and rehomed a lot of my dogs that either weren't going to make it in the show ring for one reason or another, usually things that are no problem for a pet owner, or that I had finished, bred a time or two and wanted to retire to a loving pet home. I would definitely look in that direction. 

To be honest, when looking for a pup, I was also keeping my eye open for the kids in a parking lot with a fat litter of much loved pups. If one had caught my fancy, I would have taken it home. I almost did before I was quite ready for another pup, but felt she was going to be huge, just too big for us. You could tell this one was at least 8 weeks, in good health and flesh and had been messed with by the kids to the point of mellowness. I doubt she had had shots, but I can do that and I trust my eye for a healthy pup and my ability to nurse a sick one. I take it home that way and its my responsibility, I can handle that. 

Personally, there are rescues and pounds I might deal with, but they have to be reasonable for what they provide. I'm not necessarily set on a purebred dog, but frankly its easier to find one at a reasonable price and reasonable conditions than a mutt!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Adopt from a Animal Shelter or support puppy mills, those, sadly, are the only real choices.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

haypoint said:


> Adopt from a Animal Shelter or support puppy mills, those, sadly, are the only real choices.


That is absolutely untrue and very insulting to the good breeders I know (and was when I bred) and work with today. :flame: 

I know plenty of good breeders that work very hard and spend plenty of time and money to produce quality dogs because they love their breeds. Both of the two dogs I have today came from those sorts of breeders and I am proud to have gotten good dogs from them. I know I have more contacts than the average person in the dog breeding community, but there are tons of good reputable breeders that breed for soundness, temperament, working ability, and conformation. Their dogs are well kept and loved. Many of them subscribe to this forum and post here, giving good advice to help others out of their experience.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Yep, those are far from the only choices or the best choices.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

GrannyCarol said:


> That is absolutely untrue and very insulting to the good breeders I know (and was when I bred) and work with today. :flame:
> 
> I know plenty of good breeders that work very hard and spend plenty of time and money to produce quality dogs because they love their breeds. Both of the two dogs I have today came from those sorts of breeders and I am proud to have gotten good dogs from them. I know I have more contacts than the average person in the dog breeding community, but there are tons of good reputable breeders that breed for soundness, temperament, working ability, and conformation. Their dogs are well kept and loved. Many of them subscribe to this forum and post here, giving good advice to help others out of their experience.


Wish I had a nickel for every person I knew that thought they were dog breeders. Rilley Jo, a former member of HT, had a deaf and a blind Border Collies she rescued from a breeder intent on line breeding. Produced some great dogs, but each litter had a few defective ones. Sometimes you have to expect some defects in the search for perfection.

When people buy what they are told is top quality dogs, isn't it natural to expect they will recoup their investment by breeding as many as they can?

When I first saw a Boxer puppy in a Pet Store, priced at $1995.00, I knew why puppy mills existed. There are puppy mills turning out quality dogs, just as there are puppy mills turning out low quality dogs. Just as there are top quality backyard breeders and those simply throwing two dogs together. How to you separate a legitimate breeder of quality and someone just making a buck?

The show class or purebred working dog market is so small, that it really doesn't count. That you have received some of their cast offs supports my belief. You encourage their breeding by providing an income for their excesses.

I know a woman that works at an animal shelter during the day and breeds Boston Bull dogs as a hobby. For every purebred Boston whelped at her house, another shelter dog gets the forever needle. 

There is a limited number of homes. How many people really need a purebred dog? The vast majority would do just fine with a carefully selected shelter pet.

Don't get me started on the designer breeds, Labradoodle, Yorkipoo and the Whootle and a few dozen more. Create a demand for more and turn your backs on the shelter dogs. 

You may have more contacts with the Dog Breeders, but I see the end results in the hundreds of shelters and thousands of sad faces in those shelters just here in Michigan.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

haypoint said:


> Adopt from a Animal Shelter or support puppy mills, those, sadly, are the only real choices.


There are multiple choices, not just those two.

One of them is to buy a puppy from a breeder who health tests their breeding dogs, breeds for temperament & health & correct structure, and offers a lifetime genetic guarantee. These breeders often expose their puppies to early neurological experiences (like the Puppy Culture protocols) that have been proven to make the puppies more resilient and eager to learn as adults. I'm one of those breeders, and I'm far from the only one out there! 

There are also small rescues (not animal shelters) who have dogs that are raised/socialized in their foster homes, after springing the pregnant mommas from a shelter somewhere. You get all the benefits of a pup raised in a known environment with people who care about them. Many of them also do the early neurological experiences, and their pups are often well socialized and loved before they're sent home to their families.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

85% of all dogs and cats in the USA are already neutered.

The ASPCA blogged about the puppy shortage in our country. http://www.aspcapro.org/where-will-the-puppies-come-from

Multiple rescues are importing dogs from other countries (meat trade dogs from China, Chihuahuas from Mexico, Golden Retrievers from Turkey) to meet the rising demand for dogs.

Many of the dogs in shelters are there due to behavior or health problems, or they are breeds that are not everyone's cup of tea.

And no, my purebred dogs didn't kill any shelter dogs...and saying they did is like telling parents that every time they choose to birth a biological child they are depriving a deserving orphan a home. http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/270386-neither-my-dogs-killed.html


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Again with the pet overpopulation myths and the shelter dogs getting the needle because of breeders. My suggestion to the shelters, quit shipping in dogs from Korea and Mexico and you won't have as much needle work to do.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

You separate breeders breeding legitimate quality by doing some research into the problems found in their breed, checking records and proof their dogs are tested for those problems, meeting the breeder, meeting the parents of your puppy, checking to see that they DO use the dogs for what you are looking for, researching pedigrees and getting a dog that has the proper health clearances behind it. I recommend going to a breeder that also does temperament testing on their puppies. 

It is a very good idea to go look at puppies with an expert along too. I know that its easy to fall in love with a pup without involving the brain, but if you bring someone that knows dogs and trust their advice, you can avoid a lot of pitfalls. For instance, I would be happy to go with someone to look at puppies... I love looking at puppies. I can give a general idea of their overall structure, temperament, do some basic tests for many soundness issues, I know what to look for in how they are raised and what the red flags are in either environment or the mother or the pups. 

Don't buy over the internet would be a great starting place too.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

As for the labradoodle, yorkiepoo and others, there is a reason for their success. It is because of people's ignorance, but not in the way that you think. The ignorance is in following the mantra of the animal rights movement that has brainwashed everyone into thinking that you have to be someone special to breed dogs. It is widely believed that dogs must belong to a registry, that registry must be closed to outside blood, and only certain individuals within that breed can be left intact. This has created a lot of breeds that have a short life expectancy, severe temperament issues, as a result of many known and unknown genetic defects. When people buy designer hybrids, they last longer with fewer problems and are nicer to be around, on average, because of hybrid vigor. So they tell their friends. It is no different than the reason that cattle farmers breed black baldies, or broiler producers use a Cornish Rock hybrid. Most popular purebred dog breeds around today could use a carefully selected outcross, but registries and public perception do not allow it. 

Shelter pets could be argued to have these same desirable qualities, but there are too many unknowns. They could be highly inbred purebreds from a rescue for retail puppy mill, completely unknown ancestry, and in the case of most true "from the pound" "on death row" dogs, statistically carry a high percentage of pit in them, the line of which could contribute to a good or poor outcome.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

My wife is searching the internet now to find some thing I will agree to. 

I have my list of wants.
(1. Female, do not seem to me as hard headed as males when it comes to boundary training.

(2. old enough to not have needle teeth.

(3. I want a breed like Lab (any color), loved my Visula, several of the setters and wimrunners. 

Not going to send any deposit on a puppy sight un seen and if I can not visit the place and pick my pup I can do with out.

I think there are a lot of good breeders out there, who have gotten a bad name from puppy mills. There is a difference.

I do not mind paying for a pup/dog with a health warranty and micro chipped. I see a lot of puppies from breeders that are at or close to the cost of a pound pup That are not roll of the dice health wise pups.

Funny the same breed of dog can be as much as $500.00 cheaper from a kennel in Ohio than Michigan.

I might just drive to Nebraska for a Llewellin Setter, those breeders don't see the need to chop off that beautiful feathered tail and the dog over all is beautiful I think.



 Al


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

barnbilder said:


> As for the labradoodle, yorkiepoo and others, there is a reason for their success. It is because of people's ignorance, but not in the way that you think. The ignorance is in following the mantra of the animal rights movement that has brainwashed everyone into thinking that you have to be someone special to breed dogs. It is widely believed that dogs must belong to a registry, that registry must be closed to outside blood, and only certain individuals within that breed can be left intact. This has created a lot of breeds that have a short life expectancy, severe temperament issues, as a result of many known and unknown genetic defects. When people buy designer hybrids, they last longer with fewer problems and are nicer to be around, on average, because of hybrid vigor. So they tell their friends. It is no different than the reason that cattle farmers breed black baldies, or broiler producers use a Cornish Rock hybrid. Most popular purebred dog breeds around today could use a carefully selected outcross, but registries and public perception do not allow it.
> 
> Shelter pets could be argued to have these same desirable qualities, but there are too many unknowns. They could be highly inbred purebreds from a rescue for retail puppy mill, completely unknown ancestry, and in the case of most true "from the pound" "on death row" dogs, statistically carry a high percentage of pit in them, the line of which could contribute to a good or poor outcome.


You are right on most points, but there are signs that things may be starting to change: http://www.dalmatianheritage.com/about/index.htm

Since there is no registration in poultry the inbreeding dilemma does not exist, at least not to the extent as in dogs, and at least not in certain breeds and for those breeders who really know how to use an outcross appropriately. It is a refreshing option when being faced with a problem in your breeding program, and based on sound science that many dog breeders and most pet owners sadly refuse to recognize. 

What you don't understand or at least don't make clear is that heterosis if not managed properly only occurs in the first generation, so most of your labrapoodles and pound mongrels are no more genetically healthy than any inbred puppy miller. That is why all three examples you cite are terminal crosses. Their offspring are not meant to reproduce, since they don't carry the same benefits past that generation. Of course the infinite ignorance of the public extends the tiny bit of knowledge of heterosis, expanding it further to cover everything that they want to believe, that the simple, easy answer is best, resulting in their mistaken belief about all mongrels being healthier.

If I understand you, you seem to dislike purebreds because of the inherent problems. I like them despite it, and I think that the benefits still outweigh the risks. Keep in mind that your examples of the superior terminal crosses would not exist if the pure parent breeds or strains were not available to create them.

Another thing to consider is despite any perceived or actual genetic weakness, purebred dogs are great for people who like a certain trait or a certain look, and there is nothing wrong with that. Do some have problems caused by a genetic bottleneck? Yes. Do many live to be 13, 14 or 15 years old? Yes. How much older do mongrels live to be?


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

One thing that I think many people don't understand about heterosis is that both parents need to be highly inbred (and this is done by someone that knows how to breed out genetic weakness as best as can be), then the cross, whether two breeds or two lines, will have the heterosis that gives the puppies unusual vigor and health. This doesn't necessarily happen with crossing two breeds when the parents aren't carefully selected through years of thoughtful breeding. If you just cross two breeds without the parents being selected and inbred, you just get ordinary mutss, as prone to health problems as any other careless breeding. I've seen that end up in crossbreds with the weakness of both parents as likely as the health of both parents, it becomes just the genetic crapshoot, not the creation of a healthy dog. 

I get tired of people promoting these poor puppies as "healthier" than average, no they are just average. 

As for your puppy, Allyoop, I think what you are looking for is great. I love a good English setter, Lavarak or Llewellin, though the Laravak will probably need too much grooming to be a great farm dog, otherwise, their temperament is great!


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

My dogs are not just farm dogs. They are my best friends keep me walking in my older age. And even thought there is no tweed coat pipe stuck in the mouth nor side by side nestled in the crook of my arm. I do enjoy a beautiful fall day with a couple of cheese sandwich's in my pocket an apple a bottle of water and good dog or two with a tinkling bell hanging off the collar as they search for a partridge.
Find a sunny hill side to set down against a tree with a dog at my side or both sides to share a sandwich with.

Ya I can handle that. Then add in setting in a bag chair in the back yard playing fetch also relaxing.


 Al


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

One thing I've always enjoyed about a good English Setter is that they love to run and hunt in the field and also to sleep calmly in the house. Lovely combination! My dear Jet, pictured above, is a bit heavy on the sleeping side, but she guards our backyard from any and every bird, be it small or large! We live in a small rural town, we have wild turkeys and quail around (and in our yard!), its so much fun to watch her point them. She was three when I got her and had not been around children or cats, but she adores the grandkids and is very polite to the kitties. Perfect for us. 

I sure hope you find your companion soon!


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

I will disagree to the part about puppy mills or animal shelter. There are lots of back yard breeders who breed their dog once or twice because THEY want a pup from the *****. I have two rescues, one from PAWS who was 8 and blind that I paid 250 and drove 200 miles for. She had been a breeder ***** for all 8 years though why anyone reputable breeder would breed a congenitally blind dog is beyond me. She is a sweet wonderful pet. I also have another of the same breed, Maltese, that I got from county animal care center. She was about 75 bucks and had just been spade. Also a sweet dog who was very sick with tick fever though she passed her medical check up prior to surgery????? and the vet bill was a grand!~. And lastly I have Gracie my Bichon whom I purchased from a breeder in Montana for 500 bucks who is a disgraceful example of the breed but I love her muchly. It is not a matter of getting what you pay for it is a matter of paying what you want to get the dog you want. Free dogs are also sometimes very expensive...one really never knows.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Agriculture said:


> You are right on most points, but there are signs that things may be starting to change: http://www.dalmatianheritage.com/about/index.htm
> 
> What you don't understand or at least don't make clear is that heterosis if not managed properly only occurs in the first generation, so most of your labrapoodles and pound mongrels are no more genetically healthy than any inbred puppy miller. That is why all three examples you cite are terminal crosses. Their offspring are not meant to reproduce, since they don't carry the same benefits past that generation. Of course the infinite ignorance of the public extends the tiny bit of knowledge of heterosis, expanding it further to cover everything that they want to believe, that the simple, easy answer is best, resulting in their mistaken belief about all mongrels being healthier.
> 
> ...


Building on this.....

If you take two poorly bred purebred dogs with genetic defects and breed them together, you're going to get a poorly bred purebred puppy. 

If you take a poorly bred purebred with genetic defects of breed A and cross it with a poorly bred purebred with genetic defects of breed B, you're going to get a poorly bred mutt :shrug:

I cannot wrap my head around the people who think that you can take a Poodle that is unhealthy and has a bad temperament, and cross it with a Lab that is unhealthy and has a bad temperament, and magically in the womb the puppies get special "hybrid vigor" dust sprinkled on them and they pop out healthy & hardy. That's just now how breeding works! And MOST designer dog breeders are doing just that, because breeders of quality Poodles aren't going to sell one of their structurally sound, fully health tested, awesome temperamented Poodles to someone who plans to breed mutts with it.

All breeds of dogs are a part of the same species, and many of them share genetic defects. Labs & Poodles are both afflicted with some of the same genetic eye disorders, as well as hip and elbow dysplasia. The gene for hypoallergenic coat, for example, is recessive in dogs....meaning a first generation Lab x Poodle cross cannot have a fully hypoallergenic coat (puppies have a puppy coat, but many are surrendered to rescues once their regular coat starts growing in, aggravating the allergies of the owner who thought they had gotten a hypoallergenic dog). 

In ANY breeding program you want to look at the sire and look at the dam and know why you're putting them together. His strengths need to compliment her weaknesses and vice versa. You want both animals to be as healthy as possible, with the best temperament for the breed that you can find. Garbage in, garbage out.

If you adopt a dog of unknown parentage from the pound, and it starts to exhibit odd health symptoms, your vet has to start from the ground up to figure out what's going on. If he knows that your dog is a purebred Basenji, however, he may immediately realize that the dog has developed Fanconi syndrome. One of the benefits to having a purebred is that you know by and large what genetic defects are common to them, and you can either screen for them or keep a watch for symptoms.


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## Jlynnp (Sep 9, 2014)

alleyyooper said:


> Funny the same breed of dog can be as much as $500.00 cheaper from a kennel in Ohio than Michigan.
> 
> Al


There is quite often a reason there is a difference. Many so called breeders in Ohio are Amish and sorry they are horrible excuses for breeders. There is also often a difference in the care and health testing done on the parents. When I bred and showed Min Pins I owned the first 2 Min Pins ever OFA'd for hips, no one thought it necessary. My GSD's were OFA'd Hips and Elbows AND tested for DM which is life ending in a GSD. You cannot base your decision on price but you have to look at the whle picture.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

If you take a well bred purebred and breed it to a well bred purebred of the same family, there is more potential for genetic defects. Not all genetic defects can be tested for, not all are even known. Genetic defects could in fact extend to behavior issues and deficiencies, the genetics work exactly the same way. Even similar breeds could have enough of the same genes through parent stock to compound this problem. There is a fairly good chance that if you cross a well bred lab to a well bred poodle, that you can be fairly certain of your outcome, and that you can be beyond certain that you are not going to produce any homozygous offspring, which is the contributing factor for most genetic defects to manifest themselves. This only works for the first filial generation, or the second filial at most, when used in a three way cross. Beyond these generations, many generations must pass in linebreeding to again set type, before the benefits of hybrid vigor can be seen again. Mutts don't have any degree of hybrid vigor, but a first generation outcross most certainly does.

Breeding junk to junk is a sure way to get junk, but the problem with most dog breeds, no one spends enough time in the duck blind, coursing wolves, rounding up cattle in the outback to ever establish that what they consider their very best dogs are not, in fact, junk. Registration status, show wins and genetic testing of the tiny segment of known genetic defects is no benchmark for an animal that was domesticated specifically for it's performance. Breed a good cow dog to a good cow dog, or a good bear dog to a good bear dog, or a good water dog to a good water dog, and don't worry about silly things like coat color and tail carriage. This is the breeding scheme that advanced canines and their usable forms steadily for many centuries, unlike the scheme of the last couple hundred years in the hands of registries that have caused the extinction of many types of dog, at least in their usable form.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

I would love to know more about your boundary training methods. This is a term that i have heard before but not really given much merit to.
I have 3 females and acreage I am not able to afford to immediately fence...and a wandering type LGD. Currently I am bringing up a replacement pup and feel kind of bad keeping her penned up so often. I just can't have my LGD teaching her to run away though..that's no good. 
Even if you could just kind of point me in the right direction as far as a good reference website or whatnot I would be really grateful. 




alleyyooper said:


> My wife is searching the internet now to find some thing I will agree to.
> 
> I have my list of wants.
> (1. Female, do not seem to me as hard headed as males when it comes to boundary training.
> ...


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

My boundary training method is simple. A harness for the pup and size increases of same, 50 foot of 3/8" Nylon or similar rope, and a few good pairs of thick leather gloves.

I walk the property twice a day every day allowing the pup who grows to explore pretty much as they want but not allowing them to cross a boundary. You set the boundary I use my fence line north east west and the fence line of the vacant property next door. I also use the cord to stop them from chasing deer along with deer break scent.
I use the national brand because it has worked for me for close to 50 years now.
http://www.nationalscentcompany.com/products.html

The leather gloves are for my hands when they take off after a squirrel or other small critter and that 50 foot of check cord is zinging thru my hands.
The check cord also teaches them to work close to me.







All of the females were pretty much trained and allowed to run loose by 6 months rarely over a year. I did have a hard headed male springer with 11 years and still would go off where ever and return when ever so it was rare for him to get off the cord.









And he had good examples to follow at the time too.

 Al


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I meant to ask but forgot, an elder mind is a awful thing.
Just what is wrong with an Amish dog breeder other than having prices as much as 300.00 less than a breeder from Michigan with the same bread of dog?

 Al


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Amish are known to be big puppy mill breeders. Not saying all Amish do this, but Pennsylvania Amish are well known for it. Cages stacked on top of one another. The worst kind.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Would that be anything like judging a whole group of people based on religious or ethnic differences? Most of the Amish people that I have seen had a lot better grasp of animal husbandry than most of the so called experts. Maybe I will send brother Jebediah a letter and give him a heads up that his brothers in the dog breeding business need to change their business model. If they switch to being an Amish rescue, they can keep their animals in even more horrible conditions and possibly even extort money from unwitting people to help with their upkeep, meanwhile avoiding all laws pertaining to inspection or transport of said dogs.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Any one else.
I don't the Amish that way myself. All I have known treat their animals like cows better than some big dairy farmers I know.

 Al


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

You asked about Amish puppy mills, not dairies or horses. I answered about Amish puppy mills.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

What exactly is the criteria to be a "puppy mill"? Is it a square footage thing? Is raising an animal specifically for sale the issue?


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

As much as I respect the Amish way of life, I do have to say that I too have seen a fair percentage who are raising dogs under what many would consider to be puppy mill conditions. The problem is that many of our English brethren are too emotionally retarded to realize that breeding dogs with a serious, detached mentality as though they were any other livestock is not in and of itself necessarily bad or wrong. They just can't get it through their heads that the practical Amish (or anyone else) do not have to be outwardly obvious puppy huggers in order to still be good animal stewards. Like any other group, some of these Amish puppy mills that I have seen were not as clean as I would like, or had animals with horrible temperaments which should never have been bred. Others were as clean and well run as any kennel I've seen.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Dogs are not JUST any livestock, they are expected to work closely with people. That also includes their owners children and toddlers, who sometimes will offend the dog simply because they are kids. Kids are sometimes foolish: it is what kids do.Dogs with poor temperaments simply should never be bred.

That being said there is no magic to being Amish: some people are good and some are not. 

A dog is a 15 year investment. Some people socialize their puppies and some do not. And some people, Amish or not, take good care of their dogs and some do not.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

If dogs with poor temperaments were never bred many breeds would be extinct. Back when people could breed dogs with the freedom of being able to cull entire litters and parents with no silly emotional stigmas attached it was possible for a breeder to make positive contributions to a breed. Now the only people with enough genetic material at their disposal to make such contributions have to operate under the radar for fear of being labeled a "puppy mill", a term with obviously no clear definition. Show me a guy that is successful in the business of raising dogs or any other livestock for any length of time, and I will show you animals that have some attempt at care given to them. Unlike the rescues, it probably won't involve sole reliance on a gofundme campaign, either.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

Terri said:


> Dogs are not JUST any livestock, *Says you. I do happen to agree. My dogs are held in a completely different class from all of my other animals, which still does not approach the lunacy which many pet owners treat theirs, but who are you, or I to say that everyone has to have the same outlook? Many people today treat their chickens, goats and even cows like cherished pets and dress up dolls. Just try to tell me that I have to have the same outlook just because they do.* they are expected to work closely with people. *Well yeah, so are all livestock to a degree or at some point or other.* That also includes their owners children and toddlers, who sometimes will offend the dog simply because they are kids. Kids are sometimes foolish: it is what kids do. *Agreed, but then by your standard we must now hold all livestock breeders liable for every animal which they bred and sold to anyone else, instead of expecting the parents of the little darlings to actually be responsible and teach them how to relate to animals.* Dogs with poor temperaments simply should never be bred.
> 
> That being said there is no magic to being Amish: some people are good and some are not. *That is kind of what I said*.
> 
> A dog is a 15 year investment. Some people socialize their puppies and some do not. And some people, Amish or not, take good care of their dogs and some do not.


We agree for the most part, but the point that I was trying to make is that there is nothing inherently wrong with thinking of a dog as another animal, keeping it in a shed, breeding it with the intent to sell the puppies for money, etc. I'm not saying that none of the protocols which are commonly followed by responsible breeders should be followed, just that there are various outlooks and there is room for more than one. How ironic that keeping a duck in the house with a diaper is not seen as being cruel, when it is, simply because the owner says she "loves" her widdle Quackers. Meanwhile a gruff Amish man who doesn't fall on the ground and frolic with his dogs in a high squeaky voice is seen as cruel because he keeps 20 bitches in a barn and has the nerve to make money off of them is viewed as someone who needs to be "shut down", when he is doing nothing wrong.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

Go to the municipal animal shelter in a city, they are overstocked with dogs and happy to find them homes. I visited 6 and went up me with a great young dog to train.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

My wife pointed out to me yesterday that what she is seeing as a difference between a breed of dogs in Michigan to those sold in Ohio is not the Amish thing.
The amish do not use the internet because they do not use electric in this area any way. so what she is seeing is not amish puppy mills.


*That is what this thread started out as animal control and shelters and there silly restrictions and what they charge and no health warranty *


 Al


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

There is a nasty puppy mill in Ohio, we sometimes get the rescues here in Michigan, the breeders. I fostered a stud, five years old. 

He had demodectic mange so bad he virtually had 80% or more of his fur gone from over his entire body. He walked as though he was sitting because of his weak hindquarters- this is from confinement. He had a grade 3 heart murmur, which he was passing on to his offspring. The dog pound he was released to stated on paper that he had the worst case of fleas they had ever seen. His skin was covered head to toe in them. He had two kinds of infection in each ear. His skin had bacterial and fungal infections. Of course, he had no clue as to being housebroken.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Highly unlikely, to sell any volume of puppies as pets strict guidelines must be followed, USDA inspections are made to the premises, people that break animal cruelty laws in such cases are prosecuted, and dogs in that kind of shape would normally be destroyed, as they should be to give them any semblance of humane treatment. It is more likely that it came from a pet hoarding rescue operation, or was shipped in from a third world country to drum up business for the rescue trade. Possibly a back yard breeding operation gone horribly wrong. Maybe it WAS a puppy mill, seeing as there is no definition for what constitutes a puppy mill, but makes for a heart tugging story at any rate.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

In my looking around I see alot of dogs being moved around to different states. (Some from no kill shelters ) Then the shelter that went to a different state to get the puppies or dogs then post urgent need posts to save the life of the said dogs. Yep charge $200 +. But hurry hurry because they are set to be put down. And man do you ever catch dickens when you question them about it. They turn it all on me, I'm the bad person for questioning them about why do they do that. I dropped the scam word and that was it I'm black listed. Oh dear guess I cant give them my money.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Ya.....don't fall for the humane society/rescue guilt trip. These people in my opinion are as bad as those who actually do treat their animals horribly. Using the 'poor puppy' scam to extract things like guilt and money from folks while at the same time somehow feeling good about all of their emotional abuse towards fellow mankind.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Kare and I drove 40+ miles to look at what they said was a Black Lab female around 8 months old. High energy pup but I figured to be expected they were having a open house so there were lots of people and kids there. I liked her (the dog not the lady we talked to.) and started discussing adopting her. They insisted she be a in the house dog and I explained we have a house cat. The said that should be OK so I told them to put the dog in a big 6x6 cage where they had 3 cats and if the cats lived we would take the dog. They refused so they still have the dog and we are done with shelters and their crazy restrictions.

 Al


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

alleyyooper said:


> My wife pointed out to me yesterday that what she is seeing as a difference between a breed of dogs in Michigan to those sold in Ohio is not the Amish thing.
> The amish do not use the internet because they do not use electric in this area any way. so what she is seeing is not amish puppy mills.
> 
> 
> ...



The majority of puppy mills are located in the Midwest, but several hundred are also found in PA's Lancaster County, where Amish & Mennonite breeders flourish in "the puppy mill capital of the East." Thousands of Amish and Mennonite-owned puppy mills are found in Ohio and Wisconsin and New York's Finger Lakes Region. Holmes County, Ohio, population 40,000, now leads the pack with more than 500 kennels, with most being Amish-owned. Millersburg is particularly saturated with Amish-owned mills. In a typical puppy mill, hundreds - even thousands - of adult dogs (the "breeding stock") are bred continuously. These dogs live miserable lives in crude, tiny, mostly outdoor structures. The "breeding stock" never gets out of their wire cages; they never touch the ground or run in the grass; they are never free, safe, loved or treated like companion animals.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

Really, the amish cant broker the dogs through a buyer and websites because they are amish? Really??

http://bailingoutbenji.com/2012/10/23/hiding-behind-faith-the-secrets-of-the-amish/


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

I dont even need to do indepth research to come up with damming evidence against the Ohio Amish dog mills. If you cant see the parents on the ground and in the house, and it is not a shelter then you should not be buying the dog. The AKC knowingly condones and registers the puppy mill dogs and give them kennel inspections and passes them. I have personally met people who were on hand for such inspections because I did not want to believe what I read myself. 

http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2008/02/akc-loves-puppy-mills-and-naive.html

http://bailingoutbenji.com/2012/04/22/my-auction-adventures/

http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2009/03/akcs-long-love-affair-with-puppy-mills.html


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## CountryMom22 (Nov 27, 2014)

A dog having AKC papers just means that the AKC has a paper trail that shows the dogs lineage. Supposedly, since they are going by the information that has been supplied by the breeder. There is no guaranty of quality connected to AKC registered dogs, unless the breeder has had the parents have been screened for diseases that the breed may be predisposed to ie: hips, elbows, eye problems, thyroid, Von Wildibrands, etc. 

Most kennels are never inspected, by anyone, unless you are registered as a dealer. The reputable breeders that are raising a few litters per year, looking to improve their own lines and develop their next show dog, are never inspected. Some kennels get by that shouldn't, absolutely. But then again, some farms shouldn't be allowed to house any animals, IMO, either. The dogs are looked at as livestock, not pets. What constitutes proper can be very subjective, and it takes a long time to shut down a kennel that consistently fails inspections. All the people have to do is show that they are trying to comply, and they will be given more time to straighten things out.

I will either buy a dog from a reputable breeder, or adopt from a rescue, shelter etc., based solely on which meets MY needs, at the time. For most, finding a pet is no different than shopping for anything else. You go to which "store" has what you are looking for at the right price!


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Jreed said:


> If you cant see the parents on the ground and in the house, and it is not a shelter then you should not be buying the dog.


Unfortunately a LOT of very reputable breeders no longer allow potential puppy buyers into their homes for security reasons. Animal rights activists will pose as puppy buyers to gain access to the home, and then even if they find the premises spotless they will call their cronies in animal control/PETA/HSUS and tell them the place is a dump and the next thing you know your dogs are seized and you're pending trumped-up charges. 

Retail Rescues LOVE to get their hands on the more rare and expensive puppies, they can make a ton of $$$. Two years ago a small hobby breeder in Illinois had an entire litter of Bulldog puppies seized when the puppies were 6 weeks of age - taking them away from their mother during a critical socialization period. The "rescue" that they went to then also separated the puppies from each other (at 6 weeks!!!). 

http://tyrannyandliberty.blogspot.com/2014/12/a-loss-of-justice-in-waukegan-illinois.html

A good number of people are also robbed by potential puppy buyers, who either steal the puppies or case the house to come and rob it that night.

Beyond that, I know a number of people who have lost entire litters to people who unknowingly bring nasty diseases with them when they come see puppies. Good friend of mine made it clear that they had to come in clean clothing, not go anywhere else with dogs that day, etc....people showed up, played with her Boxer puppies, and as they were leaving the pre-teen aged girl said "Mommy I like these puppies way better than all the others we've seen today!" :flame: Mom confessed that they had been to a handful of other places that day to look at puppies....and lo and behold her puppies came down with coccidia. Once coccidia gets in your soil it never goes away, and she struggled with it for years (losing vulnerable puppies along the way) until she literally moved to get away from it.

Another friend had someone come to place a deposit on a puppy, pups were 5-6 weeks of age, family passed her normal screening. Mom signed paperwork and then asked several times if the puppy would have her parvo shots all done before they picked the pup up. Upon further questioning found out that they had been fostering a pup for a local rescue that had died of parvo a week before in their home. Parvo can live up to 6 months in soil/carpet/etc. Breeder was livid that this had not been disclosed, these people had been playing with her younger puppies as well as many of her older dogs. Sure enough she lost the entire litter to parvo, timing of the symptoms appearing confirmed that these people had infected her puppies  They also moved, temporarily staying in a rental home while every dog they owned was revaccinated and tested until they were sure the parvo wasn't lingering, then they moved into a brand new house.

So if you contact a breeder and they have excellent references, health testing results on file with OFA, and they will send you detailed pictures of where the puppies are raised, but they won't let you come play with puppies, don't let that turn you away. These days reputable breeders are less likely to let just anyone come into their homes.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Sometimes "running through the grass" is not healthy or humane. If you were breeding any amount of dogs you would certainly want them confined to areas with non porous surfaces that could be effectively sanitized.

This whole discussion would be a moot point, if not for following the animal rights laced mantras that have taught everyone how evil it is for commoners to breed their own dogs. By preaching spay and neuter, the values of registration papers (which are usually only good for bedding), by preaching the mythology and mystique of fancy dog breeds, and by implying that magical knowledge is required to mate dogs an atmosphere has been created in which unscrupulous, profit driven individuals as well as misguided animal hoarders are about the only people crazy enough to maintain breeding stock.

You can't blame the Amish. They can raise sheep that have two lambs a year worth 150 each, but city people are stupid enough to shell out 400 bucks for a pedigreed golden retriever that's only ever going to poop in their flower bed. They have 12 at a time, how many can we fit in this old sheep barn? All because people think that mixed breeds aren't capable of pooping in their flower bed just as effectively, thanks to the teachings of the registries for years, and that their neighbors don't have any extra puppies, thanks to miscellaneous propaganda. For years, shelters and rescues have drilled into people's heads that breed is important, for health and temperament, as well as predictability, in an effort to get everyone to spay their pets. Registries jumped right on that bandwagon, more money for them. Breeders liked it too. The unintended consequence is that now people are convinced that they need some specific breed. Most people with dogs don't even need a dog in the first place let alone a specific breed. 

If you are a guide that needs dogs to trail mountain lions in high desert conditions, if you are a rancher that needs dogs to bunch cattle out of mesquite thickets all day in hundred degree weather, or if you need a dog to protect property, or any of countless other highly specific canine applications, breed is not important. Overall type is a consideration, but number one is ability. Over enough years if dogs are bred based on ability, they might start to look like a breed. but hand them to a different breeder and they might fall apart. Breed stands for absolutely nothing. Most people are not going to use a dog for anything, so it means even less. Big hyper dog might not be a great house pet. Little shivery dog probably won't be good for retrieving geese in icy water, it's always been pretty simple until the breed registries, animal rights groups, and ill-informed consumers got involved. Almost common sense. 

So that is why people have to drive two hours to adopt a dog at a rescue for five hundred dollars that was raised in an Amish or possibly even Harry Krishna puppy mill instead of just getting a pup from their neighbor.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

> I will either buy a dog from a reputable breeder, or adopt from a rescue, shelter etc., based solely on which meets MY needs, at the time. For most, finding a pet is no different than shopping for anything else. You go to which "store" has what you are looking for at the right price


...and that is just it. Humane societies and others are devolving into this "store" you speak of. Rescuing shouldn't have a price tag attached. Goodness of the heart does NOT involve money and this is sick, sick, sick. How many animals have been euthanized because a "suitable" home was never found for the animal with a huge price tag attached? I see these shelters having "specials", $5 cat adoption days and all that stuff. The animals seem to get new homes a heck of a lot faster if they don't cost hundreds of dollars to " rescue".
Sometimes I wonder if the humane society idea was EVER about helping these animals so much as helping the people who run them.

Sorry for the rant.


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## CountryMom22 (Nov 27, 2014)

I was not saying that rescues are a store, I was just saying that when you shop for anything else, you go to the store that has what you need at a price you are willing to pay.

I agree that some of the "adoption fees" may seem high at some rescues. I don't claim to have dealt with a lot of them, but if they didn't charge a fee that was high enough to give these dogs a value, many of them would be adopted out and then dumped again. Many Americans only assign value to something that they have had to pay a lot of money for. Just like people in my area who pay between $600 and $800 for a mix... whether it is a Goldendoodle or Labradoodle or Maltipoo, makes no difference, they are mutts! But they paid a lot of money for that mutt. They feel that that makes their dogs more valuable then a dog acquired from a shelter for less money. But these owners will say it's not a mix, God forbid you call it a mutt to their face!

Most of the shelters that I have dealt with only run these specials when they are severely over run with animals, like in the spring during kitten season. Or they run them for older, less adoptable animals, who have waited a long time to find a home. Many people don't want to adopt a black cat, so they drop the fees to try to get them into a home.

Sometimes, buying from a reputable breeder is difficult. Many of them insist on a fenced yard, which yes, would be great. But some of the best cared for dogs that I have ever seen ( and I have been a dog groomer for 23 years) belong to people who do not have a fenced yard, but they walk their dogs constantly throughout the day, which means Fido doesn't spend his day at home alone, waiting for his people to come home. Years ago I was involved with showing Shelties and I was the puppy referral person for my club. I can't tell you how many good homes were denied a puppy by a breeder for lack of a fence, or because both adults in the house worked full time or because their kids were too young. Without even meeting these families!

So, the bottom line is different people will get their animals from different places. Unfortunately, we can't always make sure that the animals we obtain didn't originally come from a puppy mill situation. Are we supposed to be supporting puppy mills when we adopt an animal from a shelter, just because no one knows what the animals background is? Every animal deserves a good home, whether as a family pet or a working farm dog/cat or a therapy animal. Each organization, be they breeder, shelter or rescue is trying to find homes for animals that need them, in their own way. While I don't agree with importing animals from another country with the express purpose of offering them for adoption through rescue, there are many animals that end up in rescue from other, legit avenues.

To each his own.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Many Rescues are as much Pet Store as a Pet Store. Unlicensed, unregulated, pulling at heart strings, writing off every expense, real and imagined. Traveling to various states , often blurring the trail of where they really came from.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

The Humane society Is now running a TV ad for people to donate just 19.00 a month to save a animal. Jerks would not even allow me to adopt a *older dog* which most people pass up for a puppy. Why in the world would I give them more than * ell. I do not agree with their policy at all, allow adopting a pet to some one with a fenced yard but while they are at work the dog is in a tiny cage or even chained to a line out side in that fenced yard. 

 Al


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

ShannonR said:


> Sometimes I wonder if the humane society idea was EVER about helping these animals so much as helping the people who run them.
> 
> Sorry for the rant.


At one time it was. At least the local humane societies were. (The national groups are a whole different animal and always were; political, terrorist organizations.) At about the time that local groups started using the misleading term rescue to describe their activities is when the humane societies changed from being all about the animals into being all about the unchecked emotional needs of the people who run them.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I'm thinking the national organisations are at least in part about the money. Kind of a cynical view maybe.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

ASPCA runs tv ads with sad dogs but do not operate any animal shelters. Just spend your donations on lobbying to stop the use of animals for food.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

The big national organizations actually kill most of the pets that they come across. They don't believe in people owning animals. They believe in hurting people to further their goals, demonstrated regularly through arson and terrorist acts. They confiscate some puppies, take some pictures for drumming up donations, gas them and throw them in a hole. People who want to "help the cute little puppies" still send them money. If you want to "help the cute little puppies", don't support ASPCA HSUS or PETA, because their end goal is to kill the cute little puppies, better dead than fed. Law enforcement agencies are even stooping to using their training now, so don't be surprised if you get shot by a SWAT team for letting your husky out to play in the snow.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I would never give to the national HS. Support your local animal shelter. If you don&#8217;t like the local shelter, support a group that you can appreciate.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

haypoint said:


> Dogs in the US get heartworm.


One of my co-workers had to put her dog down because she didn't give it heartworm prevention medication.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

My last 3 dogs came with a $300 adoption fee plus I paid for neutering my male just so the rescue wouldn't have to cover the cost. They normally spend at least that much on every dog they rescue. Usually I spend at least $1,000 for each dog in the first year between adoption fee, vet bills and food.

I would never buy a puppy mill dog because I don't support that kind of person or operation. Hopefully we will put an end to that kind of suffering.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

If you are getting your dogs from a rescue, chances are you are supporting a "puppy mill". The kind of person or operation that used to run puppy mills have simply wised up and changed their name to "rescue" to take advantage of all the idiots out there. Vet cost is no gauge of animal care, you can do most of what needs to be done to a dog very economically without a vet. Rabies shots and fixing injuries is about the only thing you need them for. Neutering is highly over rated, and done as early as rescues and humane societies recommend, or often mandate, it causes health problems for dogs, most vets will never admit to this because it is a major source of revenue. If you really care about your dogs, you will get them from someplace that will allow you hold off on neutering long enough to avoid subjecting your animal to a potential short life of torture.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

My recused Visula was spayed at 7 weeks we got her at 8 weeks, two days later was sick and had to spend 3 days at the vet with a virus and our vet was madder than a wet hen and said if there really is a hell those people should go there for spaying a pup so young. first week of owner ship cost $800.00. Vet stays are not cheap

My present pup was also spayed at 8 weeks and still had the stiches when we picker her up once again she got sick with in days of being in our home with puppy strangles and once again our vet railed at the stupidly of spaying or neutering (although not as bad) a dog so early of age. first two weeks of owner ship $550.00

I just refuse to pay the rescues for a dog with no health guarantee with in a hundred or so of what you pay a reputable breeder.

Bought a pup Saturday has a 1 year health guarantee and is chipped, and we get to decided if we want her spayed. We also know her breed for sure and her birthdate. Just penny's more than one from the HS.

No more rescue dogs for me with all their restrictions and stupid rules and high prices and no health warranty that you supposedly should get if they *really did indeed have then vet checked* and not just spayed or neutered.

 Al


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

In Michigan, Rescues are anything someone wants them to be, uninspected, unregulated, whatever. Animal Shelters are regulated. It is a bit confusing sorting out between them. Some licensed shelters have Rescue in their name and often the unregulated rescues brag that they are a 501C3, as if that proves they are legitimate. 

So, when you "rescue" a pet in Michigan it might be a puppy mill, might be someone importing pets from other states, might be stolen dogs.

Michigan has such strong spay neuter regulations, adopting an intact pet from a shelter involves a contract that you agree to get the dog fixed when it is old enough and a $25. "bond". Then the Shelter must follow up on it. So, there is a bit of pressure to simply spay/neuter everything before it leaves. 

Puppies are more desired than dogs, so Shelters, Rescues and Pet Stores try to get puppies sold sooner the better. Once they become dogs, demand slows.

Puppies get sick much easier than dogs. Shelters, Rescues and Pet Stores are a collection of dogs from all over and disease control is difficult.

www.michigan.gov/animalshelters has a list of the inspected shelters. If you don't see the place listed where you bought your puppy, hard to tell what it was.


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