# Pigs are "unclean" and their meat is unhealthy?



## happydog (May 7, 2008)

Anybody on here have experience answering this argument or have any good info I could use to refute it?

My son (whose college education I helped pay for :hysterical is convinced that the Jewish religion is correct about pork and it really *is* unclean and unhealthy to eat.

I asked him to cite some empirical evidence or peer reviewed research and he offered up this:
www.kyrieology.com/drupal/wwje/adverseinfluenceofpork

I'm having a hard time finding anything credible to support my position that he's full of it. :hammer: His main argument is that the meat itself is chemically unhealthful for humans to consume.

Can anyone point me to any research that "proves" that eating pork is just as healthy, safe, and nontoxic as beef or chicken?


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

Why argue with him? Eat his pork chop and pass him the green beans.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

It is pointless to argue with religious beliefs.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

More bacon for me.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I see 2 pages of claims with absolutely nothing to back them up: how can you possibly debate that???????? The only quotes are from the Bible and the Koran. There is no basis for the claims given, and instead of research they used case studies For instance, his leg ulcer cleared up after he stopped eating pork, There is no mention of the antibiotics the military WOULD have given the soldiers or any OTHER treatments that might have affected the presense of leg ulcers).

Does his college teach them to evaluate papers? To look for studies, for objectivity, for proven facts instead of opinions?????????


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## lawman0252 (Sep 26, 2010)

http://ireland-guide.com/article/index.php?cat_id=&item_id=7324&str_highlight=outsi


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## RedneckPete (Aug 23, 2004)

Pigs are unclean and eat all kinds of disgusting things. I find it amazing that they can eat all that and still taste delicious.

Pete


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

RedneckPete said:


> Pigs are unclean and eat all kinds of disgusting things. I find it amazing that they can eat all that and still taste delicious.


Chickens eat things just as nasty or worse than hogs, and they're "clean" in the Old Testament. 

Oh, and they taste great, too! ound:


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## happydog (May 7, 2008)

My best argument so far was to question the logic of why pork is "unclean" but it's "clean" to eat a breakfast food that fell out of a chicken's butt. 

My religious argument is that if God didn't want us to eat pigs He wouldn't have made them out of meat. 

Actually he's not so much basing it on religious beliefs. His contention is that pigs don't sweat out toxins, they're absorbed into the meat/fat of the animal and then we consume the concentrated toxins. And/or that there's something "different" about the chemical composition of the flesh of pigs that makes it inherently unhealthy.

Thanks for the help!


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Crab are nasty but taste sooooo good, clams, same thing, most people eat the shrimp poop.
Pigs are not nasty by nature but nasty by human nature being confined to small areas being fed what ever they will eat which is just about anything, however not something in the "natural" diet. 
I personally am not a fan of pigs for the simple fact as I would have to pen them up and then they smell bad, but pasture pigs are very unlikely to smell or be nasty


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

last time I heard, sweat was saline. If he is sweating out toxins, id be using purell after shaking his hand


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## Prickle (May 9, 2009)

Lard from grass fed pigs has many of the same health benefits as olive oil.

Here's PDF about good vs bad pork products from a nutrionist.

http://lindaprout.com/

www.lindaprout.com/assets/pdfs/Pork.pdf


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## MissyMoo (Jan 29, 2009)

I agree with Lasergrl. yeah, IF pigs sweated, why would they sweat out anything different than anyone else? 

and...to believe what he is saying, you'd have to be jewish, then you'd have to believe that particular pork belief. 
I dont happen to believe either one. :hand:

You can write down just about anything and put into a book, and get "someone" to believe it. 

Even if it were true and based on proven facts, I would probably still eat pork and since I DO NOT smoke or drink or do drugs......
I would then finally have a vice and have to consider myself a "pork addict" LOL 
(or better yet a sausage addict...yummmm HAHAHA) 
:hysterical:


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## whodunit (Mar 29, 2004)

Supposedly pork contains cadaverine and putrescine which are enzymes that help break down tissue.


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## Native87 (Jan 21, 2010)

DeaconJim said it all. lol


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

happydog said:


> His contention is that pigs don't sweat out toxins, they're absorbed into the meat/fat of the animal and then we consume the concentrated toxins.


In the human body, the toxins are filtered out by the kidneys, stored in the bladder, and excreted in the urine. I bet dollars to doughnuts that pigs do this as well.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Terri said:


> In the human body, the toxins are filtered out by the kidneys, stored in the bladder, and excreted in the urine. I bet dollars to doughnuts that pigs do this as well.


Just one of the many sensible answers given.

Happydog, if this is the best the education that you have given your son can come up with, you've wasted your money. Perhaps he needs to hope that he never becomes a full blown diabetic on insulin.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

*

Romans 14:19-21 (New International Version)*
*
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 

20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. *

*21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.*


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## happydog (May 7, 2008)

uh oh, he's stepping up his game. Here's what he came up with after I went to bed.

RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PORK CONSUMPTION AND CIRRHOSIS:
www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(85)91338-8/abstract

Detection of mutagenic activity in human urine following fried pork or bacon meals:
www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...6f97ae0b8688ce8c9bb0d375a9b86050&searchtype=a

Epidemiology of breast cancer with special reference to the role of diet:
www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...dc9104eeee5e99029aaf7df0bd227114&searchtype=a

LIFE-STYLE RISK FACTORS FOR PANCREATIC CANCER IN LOUISIANA: A CASE-CONTROL STUDY:
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/128/2/324.abstract

I used Terri's first argument to refute the Jewish article and he admitted I won that round. Thank you Terri. 

"Supposedly pork contains cadaverine and putrescine which are enzymes that help break down tissue." If I'm not mistaken, don't all meats contain those? Isn't that what makes meat rot? When I first read about "cadaverine" and "putrescine" in a health book the very words made me feel a little ill. In fact I tried to go vegetarian after that book. With poor results, lol. 

Ronney, I've often felt that college educations are a waste of money anymore. Especially the ones I have to pay for. 

It seems the only thing he's learned is how to argue with me more effectively. Which is why I get such a kick out of the irony, I guess. He says he's enjoying the role reversal, usually he's the one proving that scientific evidence doesn't support my nutty internet theories.

We had a two year debate going on the dangers of microwave ovens. I fry my bacon in cast iron, thank you.


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## rmrc (Aug 20, 2009)

"Pork products and rice were conspicuous as dietary risk factors, each showing a positive dose-response effect, whereas fruit consumption exerted a protective influence."
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/128/2/324.abstract

That was a case study from Lousiana of respondants with Cajun ancestry. I'd like to see the same study done on folks of Asian ancestry. Results can be manipulated to support almost any theory.


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## MissyMoo (Jan 29, 2009)

I found this online on this site = http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/901556

Question
Pigs eat anything..including garbage..and they dont sweat to release all the toxic stuff from thier bodies..so why do you eat pork?

Answers
1) Pigs don't eat anything just organic material, when you see a pig eating garbage it's eating stuff like fruit peels, and the remnants of cans and cartons. Prior to the advent of factory farming, pigs were often used to eat fallen fruit in orchards, this kept insects like fruit flies and apple maggots from ruining the crop.

2) Many animals can't sweat, and just like humans pigs get rid of their toxins using their liver and kidneys. The toxins come out in their urine.

3) Commercially raised pork is fed on a diet of mostly corn and soy, not garbage.

4) The steroids, growth hormone and antibiotics that are given to pigs are a lot worse than any garbage thy could eat.

5) Pork meat tastes good, it has much more flavor than chicken or turkey IMHO

6) Pork is safer to eat: Cattle can get mad cow disease, poultry can get avian flu, on the other hand pigs are quite hardy against diseases that can be transmitted to humans a.k.a. zoonotic diseases. The most common disease you can get from eating undercooked pork is trichinosis, but there has not been a case of said disease reported in the US for the past 15 years.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2010)

RedneckPete said:


> Pigs are unclean and eat all kinds of disgusting things. I find it amazing that they can eat all that and still taste delicious.


So do chickens.

Both pigs and chickens will eat the manure of other animals, and all sorts of other nasty stuff.

Pork and chicken are both delicious.


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## mooman (May 19, 2008)

Ok I read over the study on mutagenic activity following fried pork meals. FRIED being the operative word. Its long been known that the browned or burnt part of meat is a carcinogen. The end of the article states the results were not seen in microwaved pork (boiling would probably be ok too....but yuck). I'm certain these same results would hold true for FRIED chicken, or FRIED beef, or FRIED lamb. Absolutly nothing specific to pigs. In fact here is an article from the same site dealing with this issue. He simply found an article that used only one type of meat and that meat happened to be pork
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6P-475T9MB-62&_user=4420034&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F1989&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1475642040&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000063005&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=4420034&md5=bd0a96feb85942d871aba79632e41538&searchtype=a


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## mooman (May 19, 2008)

Ok article on Pork consumption and cirrohsis. 

First lets remember that there is a world of difference between CAUSE and CORRELATION. Perhaps people who eat a lot of pork also eat a lot of cole slaw, maybe its actually cabbage, or the uncooked eggs in mayo CAUSING the CORRELATION. Perhaps people who eat alot of pork also eat alot of BBQ sauce.....etc etc.

Second. The article found a much more statistically significant correlation between *alcohol consuption* and cirrohsis. (pork was a 5% probability that the results were due to chance, with alcohol it was less than 1% probability that results were due to chance). So your son by using this argument to obstain from pork should also be obstaining from ALL ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES as well.

The fact is we all know high fat foods are not good for you. If your son wants to argue that baked chicken is healthier than pork......well he's right it is. I have seen nothing in these articles however that indicates that pork is any less healthy than other high fat meats. Lastly, if your son eats less meat because of his convictions I suppose thats a good thing. As a society far too much of our diet is meat.


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## happydog (May 7, 2008)

Thanks mooman. That one on mutagenic activity I had no difficulty with. As a semi-recovered foodie I recognized that article was talking about the Maillard reaction. It occurs not only in meats but any charred or browned foods, especially grilled or barbecued foods. I can blow him out of the water on that one.

The cirrohsis one, I'm going to quote you on, thanks. He abstains from alcohol already. 

ladycat, my dog was licking fresh cow pies this morning. He's still sweet too!

Missymoo and rmrc, thanks, I'm going to use those.

Laura, thanks a bunch for your contribution, I'm going to use that for my closing argument.

Thanks everybody, you're helping my case a lot. If this works I may start giving talks at synagogues all over the country. It may be the start of whole new market for selling pork! Kosher Porktm


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## farmerpat (Jan 1, 2008)

If your son doesn't want to eat pork, then let him do what he wants. He's an adult, and there is no sense in arguing with him - nobody will win. Someday he will come to his senses and realize that he probably breathes in more toxins everyday than he eats in a month. I remember when I lived back in Denver the news station doing a multi-part story on the invisible bits of rubber tires that wore off when people drove that everyone was breathing in when they lived/worked/played anyplace near a paved road. Cleanliness is in the eye (and mouth) of the beholder, and if he doesn't want to eat pork, let it lay. Eat his share, serve him some tofu, and don't make a mountain out of it.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

I wouldn't argue. Eat his share. Sell his share. Religious fanatics can't be reasoned with. They are fundamentally beyond reason because they are faith based.

The point is moot. There are 1,000 people waiting to buy what he doesn't want. Let him eat green beans.


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

Age is a carcinogen. Is he ready to give that up? Of course, I still hold to the idea that he's a big boy and can make his own decisions. Like I said before, pass him the green beans.


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## RedneckPete (Aug 23, 2004)

Cannon_Farms said:


> Pigs are not nasty by nature but nasty by human nature being confined to small areas being fed what ever they will eat which is just about anything, however not something in the "natural" diet.
> I personally am not a fan of pigs for the simple fact as I would have to pen them up and then they smell bad, but pasture pigs are very unlikely to smell or be nasty


Not true. My pigs have almost an acre to run on, but are often seen urinating in their wallow, or even into their own water bowl. I call that nasty.

Pete


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Pigs are nasty. So are chickens. And cows. Vegetables grow best in manure. Fish swim in their own pee. So do ducks.

What to eat...everything is so nasty!


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## copperhead46 (Jan 25, 2008)

Anybody that eats a chicken can't say a word about pigs. There ain't nothin' nastier than a chicken. If you want a clean animal, eat a horse  
As for the sweating thing, cows don't sweat either, but as has already been mentioned, we don't sweat out toxins. It sounds to me like he should be a vegan, but make sure it's organic.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

happydog said:


> Thanks mooman. That one on mutagenic activity I had no difficulty with. As a semi-recovered foodie I recognized that article was talking about the Maillard reaction. It occurs not only in meats but any charred or browned foods, especially grilled or barbecued foods. I can blow him out of the water on that one.
> 
> The cirrohsis one, I'm going to quote you on, thanks. He abstains from alcohol already.
> 
> ...


*



Romans 14:19-21 (New International Version)

Click to expand...

*


> *19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
> 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. *
> *21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.*


When I posted Scripture, I assumed that both of you are Believers and Followers of Christ......
This Scripture shows him that the Lord said that we may eat whatever, but it also says, if someone chooses not too......for us not to "destroy the work of God, over food".
My intention was not to give fodder to an arguement, but to show that we should be more concerned with each others Walk with the Lord, not who's 'right and wrong'.

If you are not both Believers, forgive me...

I am pretty shocked at some of the replies here.....:shrug:


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

RedneckPete said:


> Not true. My pigs have almost an acre to run on, but are often seen urinating in their wallow, or even into their own water bowl. I call that nasty.


Oh, just like people. I get it.


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## happydog (May 7, 2008)

I should have said in the beginning this is not really an argument. It's more of a debate. :duel:

My son is an adult not living at home. In fact he's in training to become an Army chaplain. After 6 years of college he is somewhere between rigid know-it-all and tolerant, open minded maturity. I suspect he thinks the same of me, lol.

I enjoy watching his critical thinking skills develop. Hopefully he's learning to refine and defend what he perceives as truth, while still accepting that other people have different life experiences and viewpoints. 

Personally, I don't care if he or anyone else doesn't want to eat pork. And if there really WAS any credible evidence that it's not healthy I'd be willing to look at it. Thankfully, there apparently isn't any. :bouncy: 

One thing I've learned in this debate - he's not the right person to ask for help in building my new smokehouse.

Anyhow, thanks for all the help. I sincerely hope nobody was offended.


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

The dietary laws that were decided back in biblical times were based on _what they knew then._

They had no refrigeration, and they observed that people eating old pig flesh had more instances of sickness and death than those that ate old flesh from other animals, so they created a dietary law to prohibit it. Like an olden-days health department.

I am a Jew, and this is what my Rabbi explained to me. Modern day Jews still follow the law, however, out of respect for the tradition.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

I am agnostic. And I love pork. But I won't eat seafood like lobsters and shrimp. I figure that if there was a god who wanted us to eat things that crawl around the bottom of the sea it would have given us gills 

Sorry if I've offended any of the Believers, but religion is just such a funny thing. I think Jill is mostly right. Just because some people who lived a very long time ago tell you to not eat something doesn't mean you shouldn't reevaluate your options in light of the world we live in now.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Critters are nasty? Compared to what - your ideals?

I've heard forever that chickens are the dirtiest critters in the barnyard and pigs are the cleanest. This probably refers to the pig's bathroom being as far from its food as possible. Confined pigs don't have as much of a choice.

I've often had neighbors ask me why they can smell the manure of some neighbor's critters but not mine from my free roaming stock. For one, I feed DE daily. And two, the free roaming poultry scratch the manure down to dust and it blows away.

Clean isn't the only reason some religions don't eat pork and other critters. Their meat has cloven hooves and it chews its cud. Their fish have fins and scales. 

Well, I'm a big meat eater and will eat just about any type of meat, but I don't like fish. I only like shrimp.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Lobster! Send me yours! I'm willing to grow gills if that is what it takes to make Lobster okay!


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Out here they have "crawfish". What I used to call "bait".


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## RedneckPete (Aug 23, 2004)

highlands said:


> Oh, just like people. I get it.


I don't get it. Do you seriously know people (beyond the age of reason) that pee in their own drinking or bath water?

Pete


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== I don't get it. Do you seriously know people (beyond the age of reason) that pee in their own drinking or bath water? ===


Care to discuss swimming pools? -LOL-


My pigs don't have a mud hole, they have a pool. It's emptied, rinsed, and refilled daily. Don't know if they pee in their drinking water container, but it's also emptied, rinsed and refilled daily.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

I pee in the sink. Hey, if it wasn't made to pee in, why is it at just the right height?


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## Jcran (Jan 4, 2006)

Ok...BIG pork lover here. I just attended a really great math workshop. We were talking about how separate pieces of data are useless when not used in the correct context. In one example we looked at the decrease of pirates worldwide since the 1700s and the increase in world temperatures. So we came to the conclusion that pirates slow global warming (thank goodness Somalia is trying to save the world by promoting piracy!) I felt that some of the arguments about the dangers of pork followed that kind of logic: when in doubt, manipulate the data. That being said, I think the Old Testament was/is a great storehouse of knowledge.
1.Don't eat pork -trichinosis was not understood or controlled back in "the day'
2. The synthesis of the kosher kill- don't eat any animal that is dead...think of all the folks who died from eating roadkill before THAT law took hold. Carrion wan't no luggage back then.

3. AND.... I REALLY appreciate the societal philosophy that "the sins of the father" implies...look at what cycles of addiction, neglect, abuse, etc. do to our kids. Hatred and bigotry are learned.

Ok, enough off task behavior. Off to take a pork roast out of the freezer to thaw...


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

HeritagePigs said:


> I pee in the sink. Hey, if it wasn't made to pee in, why is it at just the right height?


:shocked:
HOW TALL ARE YOU???????:shocked:


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## happydog (May 7, 2008)

:rotfl:


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

HeritagePigs said:


> I pee in the sink. Hey, if it wasn't made to pee in, why is it at just the right height?


*grin*




RedneckPete said:


> I don't get it. Do you seriously know people (beyond the age of reason) that pee in their own drinking or bath water? Pete


Seriously? City folk have been dying off by the millions for millennia from the diseases they spread by urinating and defecating in their streets, water supply, etc. It was standard operating procedure until very recently, still is in many places. Humans have a long history of dirtying their nests. At least piglets walk a little ways from the nest and pee or poop.


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## kyweaver (Nov 30, 2009)

I imagine that parasites originally played a role in religious proscriptions against pork. With a metabolism so similar to humans, many diseases can be transmitted between humans and pigs (trichinosis, anyone?) With proper sanitary practices, that is no longer a concern. 
However, I don't try to reason people out of their food taboos, be they logical or not. Eating is a very personal activity. It is rude to try to force someone to eat or not eat what they are not comfortable with. This applies to the son as well.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Pete, if you do a little searching on the net, you'll find that drinking urine has been commonly used (even by royalty) as a method of building the immune system. Fortunately, my immune system is already too active, so I'll pass...


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== if you do a little searching on the net, you'll find that drinking urine has been commonly used (even by royalty) as a method of building the immune system. ===


My uncle, a surgeon, was in a Mash unit during WWII. He said they used urine to sterilize the instruments 'cause that's all they had.


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## Jcran (Jan 4, 2006)

Peein' on one's feet is supposed to prevent athlete's foot. So maybe peeing in one's sink is a kind of drain cleaner:cowboy: No pork proselytizing here but I'm off to eat one (or two) yummy pork chops that my hubbie is grilling over applewood...yukon gold mashed potatoes...homemade applesauce. Ahh, life is good


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

You folks understand that I don't actually pee in my sink, right? Just a joke...

...I pee in the potted plants and blame it on the cat


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## MissyMoo (Jan 29, 2009)

HAHAHA!!! 
You all are SO funny 

I saw this special on TV once that was filmed in Africa and some of the local tribal people would stand behind one of their big cows while it peed (LOL) and aim their head in the stream....so it would bleach their hair a reddish color - which was a stylish trend. HAHA. 
Apparently urine is quite useful, LOL!


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2010)

Did you know warm fresh urine is supposed to cure an earache? I've never had the guts to try it, but some people swear it really works.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Oh yeah, almost forgot. I think it was the Spanish who used it as a tooth brightener.

One of the more creative uses I've seen was when working in a locked ward at a hospital. One of the pts. singled out a couple of the window bars as his urinal. One day, he was able to push out the rotted steel and concrete. Talk about Chinese water torture...


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2010)

Harry Chickpea said:


> One of the more creative uses I've seen was when working in a locked ward at a hospital. One of the pts. singled out a couple of the window bars as his urinal. One day, he was able to push out the rotted steel and concrete. Talk about Chinese water torture...


That could be a good survival trick to keep in mind.

Just in case one is ever imprisoned behind bars by kidnappers or something....


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## Jcran (Jan 4, 2006)

My daughter's Jersey heifer must be an herbal/homeopathic healer, then. She is ALWAYS managing to pee on me! Maybe she's telling me I need some healing!


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