# Help a dumb ******* out please!!!



## CrawDaddy (Jul 30, 2014)

Ok here is my thing I checked out solar panels for my house and I thought my house was pretty efficient because my electric bill runs about the same as most people's houses I know and I have a 2 story home bigger than theirs. Well come after looking into solar I found out real quick my family is are power pigs. 

My monthly average is 3,500 kWh I see people talking about their yearly usage being 5,000. I don't know how this is possible unless my AC unit is using that much power. I used a solar calculator to figure out what kind of set up I needed and it said I needed 200 100 watt panels I am not sure I'm doing this right. 

Unless someone tells me that can't be right and Helps me figure out what I'm doing wrong I am now thinking about setting up the camper for off grid emergency situations.

I have no clue what the monthly usage is on it but it runs 1 med size ice box, 1 5 gal water heater, and 1 110 5000 btu ac plus a few lights a radio and a ceiling fan. I would also like to be able to run a box fan along with it. I live in Louisiana I have a spot with no shade I can put the panels in. I want to be over powered to be able to run some power tools occasionally a water pump from time to time and whatever else may come up. 

What would I need to achieve this? What are some good affordable companies to look at?


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

It took us a few years, but we got our useage significantly down. We're only now getting to the point where we're feeling like we can get solar.

If we'd never cut our useage so much, we could not have reasonably afforded solar power.

The lower bills are great too!

We bought a kilowatt meter. Plugs into outlet. Power cords plug into it. Measures power useage.

That was a great tool to adjust our useage and help guide what we changed. Good place to start for us.


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## CrawDaddy (Jul 30, 2014)

Yeah I'm pretty sure I know what's eating up most of my power. A 20 year old 5 ton central unit. 2 kids that never turn a light off and 2 50 gal water haters.


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## CrawDaddy (Jul 30, 2014)

100 deg summers with 80% humidity makes AC pretty much a necessity unless you like the smell of BO


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Whether you go solar or not, I'd send that 20 year old 5 ton unit to the scrap yard. Don't know if you can find the SEER rating on it, but it's probably in the 10 range, and maybe less.

What I would replace it with are 'mini-split' type units. You can get them with SEER ratings in the mid 20 range. Also, the whole concept of heating or cooling an entire house is a uniquely, and silly, American idea, dating from the era of dirt cheap energy.

With mini-splits, you heat/cool the rooms are actually IN versus the entire house. Say, for example, those 2 kids are off at school.....mama is home, using the living room, kitchen, and maybe your bedroom. One or two MS units take care of them.....but with a central unit, you HAVE to cool everything to cool ANYTHING. Sorta dumb, huh ?

Using a M-S system, you set a timer on the thermostat, the units click on at, say, 2pm, start cooling the kids rooms, so when they get off the school bus, their rooms are at 72 (or whatever).

Then start looking at your appliances. How old are they ? My previous fridge, a side-by-side Whirlpoop, 22cuft, from the mid-90's, used 1200kwhrs/yr. My current fridge, a GE 25cuft, French door model, (both with ice/water in door) uses 600kwhrs/yr.....that's how much better they've done the insulation (foam vs fiberglass) and how much better they've improved the compressors, and so on.

2 water 50gal water heaters ? Electric I assume ? *Right there is your BEST bang for the solar buck.* Look at solar hot water WAY before you look at solar electric (PV). Where you live, you ought to be able to cut out most all of your electric use of them by going solar hot water.

Lighting: If a hand applied to the back of your kid's head doesn't train them to turn off a light, put in motion detector switches. Person leaves the room, lights go off. (though personally, option 1 is the way to go IMHO....  ) Take out every incandescent bulb you have (thanks, Mr. Edison....it was a great 20th century....but it's over), and replace with LEDs.

When you get your use down to 1500kwhrs/month, come back...we'll talk PV solar.


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## Oldshep (Mar 28, 2015)

I don't know how 3,500 kwh per month is possible. We average 600 per month. We live up north and dont have ac going all the time but we have it in the summer, we have a big screen tv and a non-energy star fridge too. Our useage has never gone over 900kwh in a month.

I think something is wrong. Look into what is sucking so much power up.


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## thestartupman (Jul 25, 2010)

TnAndy, I am currently down to about 440Kwh per month except for three months of the year that the central air is on. Even then, 1500 per month is the highest it gets. I am still running a newer electric water heater, and 2 small freezers, and a fridge that uses about 820 Kwh per year. The freezers use about 320 Khw hours per year each if I leave them both plugged in. I try to get them emptied down to just one freezer, and shut the other off when I can. The other big user of electricity is a 1 Hp Well Pump. We still use the electric clothes dryer. I know, we should be using a clothes line already. Any thoughts or ideas on what I should do next to try to get off grid?


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## CrawDaddy (Jul 30, 2014)

That's what I don't understand really, power usage isn't uncommon for this area it's pretty average my bill runs about $200 a month that is about what everyone I have asked says they are paying. I don't see how it is possible to get your usage down past 1500 KWH per month. Now my wife stays at home. The icebox which is a new double door I assume similar to yours and looking at my bill comparing summer months to fall months we didn't use the AC unit much there was only about 800kwh per month difference. That's with no heat or air being used.


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## thestartupman (Jul 25, 2010)

CrawDaddy, here is where I am at. I have switched every bulb in the house over to LED's except the Appliance lights. It is only the two of us in the house, so this helps a lot also. I have a gas Cook Stove, and gas heat. I use the gas heat pretty much only when we have company. I use wood heat the rest of the time. We have all the other modern conveniences Big Screen TV, DVD player ect. My lowest bills come during the fall and spring. The lowest I have had is about 310 Kwh in a month. I average about 440 Kwh over the 8 months that I don't use AC. Then it goes up to about 1200-1500 Kwh per month. Any thing you are using electricity to heat with is using a ton of electricity.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Crawdaddy, don't be discouraged. There really is a lot you can do to chip away at useage. Some changes make huge differences and some are smaller but really add up over time.

We used to be north of 4000 kwh a month years ago. It just wasn't something I was raised with an awareness of.

Now we're regularly south of 1500 kwh a month.

Insulation, lights, heat pump water heater, mini split heat and ac, changing useage habits, appliances, home electronics, wood and pellet heat options, are all changes we have made. We've been at it for a few years. 

In that time we've moved three times. Each time out useage should have skyrocketed because we were adding things to our load in terms of our house size etc.

Currently, we have the biggest house yet, and very old and are living where there are definitely summer and winter seasons to contend with.

Plus I now have six buildings be sides the house with power running to all, plus my dad fully hooked up many months a year living in his fifth wheel. There's eight of us in the family and we Homeschool so really a lot if people home a lot to use stuff. Plus I run three big freezers darned near year-round.

I'm telling you the $30 killawatt meter has paid for itself many times over. We've tracked stuff with it repeatedly and found easy adjustments, and been motivated to save and spend for big ones because we calculated nearly exactly what it would save.

Calculating useage and changing useage is really the best place to start IMO. And, the gradual changes have not made anyone feel like we're living without, cause we really are not.

I'm still actually working on lowering before we put the solar in, because before we moved last year I have us down into the 500-600 kwh a month range regularly.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

I only hit 400 kw per months when I am watering the garden two months out of the year. 350 is normal range... I hate it when I go under 250 kWh as then I have to pay a fee which makes it more expensive than if I did use 300kWh.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

CrawDaddy said:


> I don't see how it is possible to get your usage down past 1500 KWH per month. Now my wife stays at home.


Well, there are two of us at home all the time (both retired).

This past month (August)bill was for 795kwhrs. We generated 815 (PV solar). Last month, (July), we used 752kwhrs.

It's not only possible, it's entirely doable. The average US home uses about 900kwhrs/month. That, of course, figures in all areas...many of which don't use AC much (Like Old Shep), and use gas/oil/coal as a heating source....and often have their domestic hot water tied into their heating source. THOSE 3....AC, heat, water heating.....are your big 3 power hogs. You have to start there to get serious about electric reduction. The rest can help, but if you don't put a dent in the Big 3, you ain't going too far.

Specs on our place:

1. AC: two mini-split systems, but they don't get huge amount of use. We live in the mountains, have a whole house fan, and run it at night (windows open). I built a super insulated house (9" exterior walls, for example), and have a huge amount of mass inside (concrete subfloor, massive brick fireplace), basically the Spanish Southwest style of construction (not the look) that keeps the inside 10-15 degrees cooler than the outside. We get up in the morning, turn off the whole house fan, shut the windows and doors for the most part, and the house "coasts". When we do use the AC, the living/dining/kitchen is one 1.5ton unit. We only turn the 1 ton bedroom unit on in the evening, or at night when it looks like the outside temps are going to stay in the mid 70s and the dew point is close to that (high humidity).

2. Heat: Wood....and more wood....  Finishing up splitting wood today for the winter of 2017-18. Have 14 cords cut, split, in sheds, and this will make 4 more. We use 4-5 cords in the house (stove on main level, one in the basement IF the temps dip into single digits, and a wood cook stove in the auxilary kitchen, used occasionally) Also heat shop (35x75, but fairly well insulated) and sometimes one green house. (another cord/2) Total of 5 stoves on the place. The two mini-split systems are heat pumps, and sometimes if it's just slightly cool in the spring/fall, we use them in lieu of building a fire.
One propane wall heater on a sun porch off the living room....almost never use it. Wife keeps her 'weeds' in there over the winter, and if it's going below zero, we'll turn it on low.

3. Water heater: single, gas, propane. 40gal. Previously had a 52gal electric. Went to gas after a winter power outage of two weeks about 20 years ago, and LOVE the gas.....zero electric, AND you virtually can't run them out of hot water. Use about 350gal propane/yr, most of it for heating water. Plan to go solar electric on my list of "round to it" projects.

4. Main Kitchen: Propane cook top, electric wall oven. Engery star dishwasher, fridge, washing machine. Dryer is electric, wife does use clothes line a fair amount. Electric dryer is probably 4th after the Big3 if you wash a lot of clothes.....you're running a 3kw heating element for hours on end....and then often having to AC the inside you just heated ! :hysterical:

5. Auxiliary kitchen: Have a home made walk-in cooler, uses a 10,000BTU window AC for cooling, but I only use it about 3-4 weeks/yr (kill hogs, beef, deer). Do have a 20gal electric water heater out there just for that room, but again, just occasional use to clean up after a canning or meat cutting session. Older dishwasher (previous one from the main kitchen), use couple times/yr to run jars. Two chest freezers, about 7 cubic ft each, both energy star.

6. Garage: 4 more freezers....2 older uprights (14cf and 17cf), 2 newer chest models (both ES) 7 and 9cf. As we empty out a freezer, we shut them down. Running 5 today, keeping the 6th (17cf UR) in reserve for hog killing coming up in a month or so. Will be replacing the uprights as we go along. I REALLY like the Danby brand (Canadian) Energy Star units. They sip power compared to many.

7. Shop:35x75. Wood heat, no AC. Lot of woodworking machines, but only use them occasionally. Dry kiln that uses window AC (big ole dog....like 23,000BTU) for dehumidification drying. 1 gal hot water heater in shop bath, only turn it on when I'm gonna be working in there.

8. Greenhouse 1. Small ventilation fan.

9. Greenhouse 2. Large ventilation fan (1/2hp motor), runs most daylight hours.

10. Misc: Gate opener (two 1/2hp motors), various motion lights, cow trough water heater about 3 months/yr, chicken water heater/same. 1/2hp deep well we use some to irrigate garden (gravity fed spring water for house)....not a huge amount.

That's pretty much it.....and we average around 900kwhrs/yr.....and ain't Amish....ahahahaaa



CrawDaddy said:


> The icebox which is a new double door I assume similar to yours...


I wouldn't assume anything. Look up the list of appliances on Dept of Energy's website, and you'd be AMAZED at the differences in power uses between brands and models.

Of course, if you have kids who open the door and stand there trying to decide what it is they want to eat, the 'hand to the back of the head' method of training may help your power use a lot too.....


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

gibbsgirl said:


> I'm telling you the $30 killawatt meter has paid for itself many times over. We've tracked stuff with it repeatedly and found easy adjustments, and been motivated to save and spend for big ones because we calculated nearly exactly what it would save.


THIS RIGHT HERE ^^^^^^^.

I used to leave out desk top computer on all the time. Hey....guess what....a dadgum desktop computer uses ALMOST as much power as my dang fridge !

Now that sucker is off unless I'm actually using it....and the modem too. Put your hand on your modem....feel the heat....guess what ? Heat is electrical use !

Get the one with the battery so it holds your info.....the cheaper version loses it all as soon as you unplug it.

Kill-a-watt


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

kasilofhome said:


> I hate it when I go under 250 kWh as then I have to pay a fee which makes it more expensive than if I did use 300kWh.


Wow....THAT sucks !


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

thestartupman said:


> TnAndy, I am currently down to about 440Kwh per month except for three months of the year that the central air is on. Even then, 1500 per month is the highest it gets. I am still running a newer electric water heater, and 2 small freezers, and a fridge that uses about 820 Kwh per year. The freezers use about 320 Khw hours per year each if I leave them both plugged in. I try to get them emptied down to just one freezer, and shut the other off when I can. The other big user of electricity is a 1 Hp Well Pump. We still use the electric clothes dryer. I know, we should be using a clothes line already. Any thoughts or ideas on what I should do next to try to get off grid?


Well, considering you're heating water and clothes electrically, I think you're doing pretty dang good. You know the obvious answers: gas or solar hot water heating, and yes, use a clothes line when possible (heck, I ain't saying freeze your backside off hanging wet clothes in January....but there are a lot of nice months where you live)

Probably solar hot water would give you the best payback right now....keep the electric tank, and solar would cut probably 3/4 of your electric use....meaning it would be cheaper than going with a gas setup.

You didn't say if the AC is central, but if it is, again....same thing I said above.....consider mini-splits when it comes time to replace the AC....and if it's really old (20 years is ancient in terms of efficiency now), replace it anyway.

Personally, I think you're well inside the range where some PV solar would make a difference. 

Consider some grid tied (yeah, everybody wants to be 'off grid', but let me testify: IT'S EXPENSIVE....if you have grid, use them as your 'battery') PV.....use micro inverters so you can add on easily and expand down the road.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Oldshep said:


> I don't know how 3,500 kwh per month is possible. We average 600 per month. We live up north and dont have ac going all the time but we have it in the summer, we have a big screen tv and a non-energy star fridge too. Our useage has never gone over 900kwh in a month.
> 
> I think something is wrong. Look into what is sucking so much power up.


Oh yeah...it's possible, and likely.

The national average is around 900/mo

Here in the TVA service area (Tennessee, Northern Alabama/Mississippi), the average use is 2300/mo. The "all electric home" was a selling feature for many years.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

TnAndy said:


> Wow....THAT sucks !




First time I got hit with it I was mad... I worked so hard to live with in our means and it was very tough. I turned the breakers to prevent forgetful people from leaving a light on out side it was winter so in Alaska I could turn off the fridge an let nature provide. I need every cent.

Once I got that it has never happened again even when had to leave a light on cause I checked the meter daily at the same time.. the second time was laziness on me.

Know we have it down and we did kills watt had a friend Lee worker come out... tested the incubator... and hospital bed just for his business learning because that was an oddities that estimates were not on his list.


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## thestartupman (Jul 25, 2010)

TnAndy, what is your highest, and lowest KWH per month?


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Ours varies between about 600 in spring/fall months, to around 1200 in the highest winter month. We average around 900 on a year round basis.


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## CrawDaddy (Jul 30, 2014)

Ok Guys you have offered some great advice on energy conservation. Now this is what I want to know say my ultimate goal is a solar unit that will provide a min of 1500 kWh per month but I want to start with about 800 kWh per month system. I want it to be easily expandable. Here is why I want to set up something like an emergency unit on the side of my house that I can switch to I the power goes down. I also would like to be able to expand it to be able to power a camper too maybe for my parents then later another camper for my sister and her kids. So what I need is a charging unit that I can easily add panels and batteries to over time. I also would like to start with a large enough converter to handle all this. Panels and batteries I want to start with just enough for 800kwh per month.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

OK. An easy to expand, grid tie only system (no batteries, no use if the grid is down) would use panels and micro inverters (one on the back of each panel). To do 800kwhrs in your area, assuming YOU installed it (no labor), you'd need about a 6-7kw system. That will run you about $2/watt or $12-15,000. You can add one panel/one inverter to this type of system for around $500bucks for a 250-300w panel. Easy to expand, with a little planning.

To do the same thing in a grid tie, with battery backup, would near double the cost, depending on how many days of battery backup you want. (days the sun doesn't shine).....AND they are not 'easy' to expand. Charge controllers (say you buy 80amp ones) take 1600w @24v or [email protected] to max them out. You'd add 6-12 panels (give or take) at a time +charge controller+other stuff. Plus you don't just add more batteries to an existing battery bank....they should all be about the same age, so there is that issue as well.

I know this because I've set up grid tie only systems, completely off grid systems, and my own, which is a combination of grid tie with battery backup, and grid tie only using micro inverters.

I added to the 6000w battery backup system twice (additional charge controller, changed out battery bank), and added to my grid tie only system (panels with micro inverters ) once....doubling it from 2500w to 5000w. So when I tell you what I tell you, it's with dented wallet and sore thumbs to go with the tale.....


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Yes, I believe the microinverter type is the system my husband and dad are looking at. They are also planning to diy install.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

gibbsgirl said:


> Yes, I believe the microinverter type is the system my husband and dad are looking at. They are also planning to diy install.



Couple things you have to watch for, number of them on a circuit, proper grounding, that sort of thing....all in the install instructions of the manufacturer....but it's as close to 'plug and play' as you get in the solar biz.

Battery systems get a LOT more complicated real quick.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Yes, I agree. And, I'm definitely not as well versed in the solar power system s and the guys are in the family. 

We have generators for temporary power back up needs.

And, as far as long term needs for power, my goal has been to attempt to find ways to work towards us being comfortable meeting our daily life survival needs be able to be met with little or no power.

For me that has net working on improving our abilities to store, prepare, cook food without grid tied power. Same with laundry, heating, lightning, cooling, water sources and filtration, travel, care of children adults and animals, also for our needs for homeschooling materials and homesteading knowledge books.

Besides the benefits of learning how much we can manage without power, I have enjoyed working towards that.

As far as the benefits of solar, I don't think we are at least currently prepared to attempt to go off grid. And, really, I think the main benefit to going solar, for us, is that we simply do not want to continue trying to keep up with the ever increasing rates for service, while we are able to have access to electricity. It's clearly IMO a losing game.

Hope I worded this, OK, lol. I'm trying to listen to the Republican debates on CNN.


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## Deeplines (Dec 7, 2013)

Crawdaddy - 1st I would have to agree with the other folks. Find where you can save now. I know $6 is a lot to pay for a light bulb but it will pay off over time so slowly start switching over to LED's. It REALLY cuts down on the drain. 

2nd - TnAndy is correct on the size of system. I have the exact type he described and I produce on a avg of 778KW per month. Mine is 6K system with the micro converters. I live in Pensacola so sunlight time should be about the same. Cost for install was 21K for someone to do it. Install was 45% of price. 

3rd - Kill a watt meter is a must. 

4th - You are lucky. La. has a 50% rebate up to $10K for each install per year (Given back in form of State Income taxes). Plus when you get the credit back from the IRS your system will cost you practically nothing. You can add to the system every year and get that rebate off your state income taxes also.

5th - Usage may be high but normal for down here in the south but TnAndy nailed everything pretty much on the head.

6th - You by chance wouldn't be the crawdaddy that works for ECO would you?


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Deeplines said:


> 4th - You are lucky. La. has a 50% rebate up to $10K for each install per year (Given back in form of State Income taxes). Plus when you get the credit back from the IRS your system will cost you practically nothing. You can add to the system every year and get that rebate off your state income taxes also.


GREAT rebate ! 

You might check...some States will allow self installed equipment to qualify, and some require pro installs to qualify. (which can pretty much eat up the rebate IF you're able to install yourself)

Something to remember, the federal rebates are over (unless Congress extends) *at the end of 2016.* Right now, that is a 30% tax credit for solar PV and hot water. (Like the State rebate, you can continue to add stuff....which is why almost every year here at my house, SOMETHING solar goes in.....  )

I'd JUMP on that deal though THIS YEAR (assuming the details work out)....between the two, you're looking at only having 20% or so in a basic system....now THAT makes solar very competitive with grid power. Then double your system next year (another 10k worth). If you pay much in the way of taxes, you could end that for two years and keep the money in your backyard. Beats the heck out of sending it to a politician to waste.


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

Battery chargers left plugged in are power vampires.
Turning the cable box off when the tv was off $20/month


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## CrawDaddy (Jul 30, 2014)

Nope Im not the same guy. Thanks for all the info. What is a reputable dealer for solar equipment best bang for the buck.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I'm sure the guys are going to help you out a ton,
I do things a little differently since I'm completely off grid...

Solar Production Rules,
1. Conservation, Reduce Consumption.
2. Conservation, Reduce Consumption.
3. Conservation, Reduce Consumption.

When in doubt,
Consider this...
Heating/Cooling a poorly insulated, Drafty/Leaking home is a budget buster.

Sealing up drafts, around windows/doors, air that leaks down inside walls is all lost money.
Don't think 'BTU' or 'Watts' or what ever,
Think MONEY!
If you had a constant stream of dollar bills leaking out of your house, you WOULD plug that leak,
And yet, people let heat/AC leak out without thinking a thing about it.

CAULK window & door frames from the outside,
Cheap, fairly easy, saves a ton of MONEY.

Pull window and door frame trim, shoot some expanding foam insulation between door/window casings,
Trim the excess, put the trim back on.
Again, saves a ton of money.

Attic/basement, fill in around wires/pipes that go into the walls!
Believe this or not, the average 1,200 sq.ft. home might as well have a hole in the wall the size of THREE common bricks just from losses through interior and exterior walls.
Most electrical outlets will draft like crazy!
Yes, there are VERY cheap gaskets for outlets/face plates to help stop that draft.

Plugging up those wire/plumbing holes and outlet gaskets will also save you money directly.

Never miss a chance to add insulation!
If you have a wall open, insulate it,
If you have the ceiling open, insulate it.
If you have siding off, insulate under it with roll fiberglass or styrofoam.

------

Maximize natural light!
Nothing like having a bunch of windows/big windows,
Then having blinds or drapes over them,
And burning the lights to see in the room!

If you don't want people looking in, use an opaque stick on coating on the window to 'Frost' the window where people can look in,
You don't have to do the entire window most times.

Windows are free heat in the daytime/winter when they aren't covered up...

-------

Lights will often be 40% of the consumption of the 'Average' home!

CF & LED bulbs will QUICKLY pay for the swap to them!
It also takes electrical 'Load' off wiring in the house, which also improves efficiency on your side of the electric meter.

Got a kid that simply REFUSES to turn off a light?
Timers or motion sensors stops that issue point blank.

Ceiling fans are a REAL good idea, fanning DOWN for cooling in the summer to cool without running the AC,
Fanning UP to get your expensive heat off the ceiling in the winter.

There are differences between high speed 'Cooling' fans,
And low speed 'Circulation' fans, which uses a lot less power.

Once you get the CONSUMPTION under control,
Then consider Solar Power...
Once you get consumption under control, you will know how to size your system...
The more you can reduce consumption, the less you need to shell out in cash for your solar system.

Solar costs about a dollar a watt...
250 Watt panels will run about $250,
When you buy in large bulk, the price goes down a little,
Which helps pay for inverters.
The more you can do yourself (sweat equity), the lower the total cost of your system.

Racking/Mounting will cost you money,
The more south facing roof space you have will reduce mounts, but it will still take rails/racking.

Ground mounts take post holes, cement, poles, racks/rails,
Then finally the panels,
Then longer runs of wire to get that power into the inverter/house.

Now, if you go to ground mounts, consider solar tracking...
A swivel that tracks the sun throughout the day, producing more power from a limited amount of panels.
When I switched to tracking, production went up almost 40%!
A simple tracking rack kept me from having to buy the most expensive part of the system,
Panels and ground mounts.

When you are off grid, or shooting for a zero dollar electric bill with grid inter-tie system,
You can use as much power as you need to,
But you will have to expand the system to cover your consumption.

Reducing consumption keeps the cost of the system low...

Now, when solar makes sense is long term.
Putting a solar system on a house you are going to sell in 5 years makes no sense,
Its NOT going to pay you back before you sell the house.

Figure out your consumption,
Size the system to net you a zero bill,
Then devide that into the warrenty on the panels/inverters.

My equipment has 20 to 25 year warrenty,
It cost $28,000 in total (completely off grid, with battery backup, grid inter-tie is cheaper)

$28,000 devided by 22.5 year average warranty = $1,200 a year electric bill.
If you are paying less than $1,200 a year, then it doesn't make sense,
This has paid off my system in about 9 years figuring in rate increases on rural electric out here in the sticks...

So after 9 years, my system has been saving me $1,200 a year for the last 6 years...
And I didn't have to pay the electric company $108,000 to install poles & wires to get power back here,
And I didn't have to shell out $15,000 up front for the transformer.

Since I did my system myself, I didn't get most of the tax credits/rebates offered today when you use a certified installer,
And its still paid itself off in 9 years,
Plus I haven't had a power outage in 15 years!
We are 'Rural' and we have had several power outages that lasted several days to two weeks!


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Now, this is a little more specific, but I will try to explain it...

First, All Solar Photo Voltaic (PV) panels produce in Direct Current (DC).
Your house runs on Alternating Current (AC),
So an INVERTER is needed to convert the DC to AC.

There are two basic types of solar systems,
The first, earliest, was 'Series' systems, 
Where power produced in the first panel is transfered to the second panel in string of panels,
The second adds to the total power,
And transfers that to the third panel in the string,
Which adds its production to the total, 
And so on, and so on....

The good point of these SERIES strings of panels is they are VERY easy to wire, as charge batteries from. 

He bad points are two fold,
*IF* you have a 'Weak' panel in the string, the ENTIRE STRING is crippled,
Limited by what that one crippled panel can pass/produce.

*IF* you have a 'Dead' panel, the entire string goes down.

I find a third issue with wiring in Series,
You can wind up with amperages that are dangerous, 
High amperage is MUCH harder on terminals, connectors, switches/breakers/disconnects, anything with contact points inside,
And the very fine wires in the panels will eventually be overcome by high amperage and cook between cells in the panels.

You have to pay particular attention to the power you build by connection g pannels in series to avoid longer term problems.

The second type of panels are the same type of panel,
But each panel has a 'Micro Inverter', usually mounted directly under the panel.

These micro inverters produce synchronized AC current,
And they wire in Parrillel instead of Series.
(They synchronize with each other and the grid in grid inter-tie systems)

This means any single inverter or panel can fail, and it doesn't cripple production from the rest of the panels or inverters...

This drives initial cost up a little because you are using a mess of small inverters instead of one or two big inverters,
And all the little inverters are a little less efficient than a larger inverter.
With inverters, there is an economy in scale,
The larger, the more efficient...

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Now, LOCATION!

There are on line databases that will tell you how much 'Sun' you get at any point in the world... 
This will tell you how many 'Sun Hours' you get,
Usually breaking that down into 'Peak Sun', and side angle sun,
And again, you can wind up with more 'Peak Sun' with sun tacking panels.

Then there are considerations of shade.
A shaded panel WILL NOT produce,
And in series that shaded panel will drag the entire string down.
With Parallel panels/micro inverters, only The shaded panels drop in production and won't drag the production down with the shaded unit(s).

Since Parallel Panels/micro inverter units produce useable AC directly,
Its easier to push that AC through longer runs of wiring,
So it makes them more suitable for remote/ground mount strings away from the house.

I had to start with Series Strings producing DC,
Then keep the inverters as close to the panels as possible,
That means a Power House or outdoor cabinets at the panel site,
Then pushing AC to the house.

If I had to do it over again, it would be micro inverter all the way around,
Its 'Plug & Play' and it removes a LOT of wiring/mounting issues.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

The thing I held out on the longest was Solar THERMAL,
Sun directly heats air, water (open loop), or anti-freeze (closed loop)
Instead of making electricity.

I did not plumb my house for solar thermal, so I resisted.
I had played with home built solar thermal, just heating water with the sun in piping or barrels, with mixed results.

I finally laid hands on 'Evacuated Tube' (Vacuum Tubes) that run liquid through them,
And two sets of tubes do 90% of the home heating!

I use radiant floor heat in my house, and the tubes work for 90% of the heat we need,
And they pre-heat water headed for the water heater reducing water heater (propane) costs.

The evacuated tubes are SO MUCH MORE EFFICIENT than anything I can build its not funny!
Can't recommend evacuated tubes enough for hot water needs,
Open or closed loop.

Like any solar, you only reap the benifits when the sun shines,
But add a 'Mass' tank to the mix and its super efficient.
I can build/fix plumbing, build insulated tanks,
I CAN'T produce propane, natural gas, ect on my own...


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

This has been an eye-opening thread. I am reading because we will be building a new house soon and are still deciding on how it's going to be built. 

I will admit, it made me pull out the electric bills and examine how much kwh we actually used during different times of year. The most interesting find was that we use about 400 kwh when the house sat empty. We unplugged everything that we could but we still had fridge and a deep freezer running as well as some lights on timers. It was also encouraging because we 800-900 kwh without a/c and 1100-1200 kwh with a/c (central air). So I know that when we build an energy efficient house half the size of our current house, we will use a lot less.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Nothing like the spray in foam insulation!
There is 'Open Cell' & 'Closed Cell' spray in,
The more expensive is Closed Cell, but it does so many things for you its well worth the money.

This stuff will work as a moisture barrier, wind/draft barrier,
Seals up ALL cracks,
There are versions that are fire retardant,
There are versions that are rodent/insect deterrents,
There are versions that retard mold growth/rot.

This stuff pays you back every single day you want the house interior to be a different temperature than outside air...

Remember, the old time builders had some pretty good ideas...
High ceilings let heat pool up and away from people,
If you want the heat back down where you are, a nice cheap to run circulation fan takes care of that...

Tall windows allow you to open the top a little, the bottom a little,
And air circulates through the room on its own.
Heat rises, exits, drawing in cooler ground air at the bottom.

A south facing 'Sun Room' is a solar heating machine.
Simply vent the heat into the house in the winter,
Again, vents down low for cool air to enter the sun room,
Vents up high for the warm air to enter the house.

In the summer, you simply vent heat outside the sun room.
If it draws from the house, vents outside, something like long buried pipes will provide cooler air on the draw side, letting the heat provide the vent/draw costing you NOTHING to cool/vent the home.

As for those buried lines, I used plastic field drainage pipe.
Spent time digging trenches, but it provides earth cooled air in the summer,
Earth warmed air in the winter for ventilation.

I use the same thing to keep my solar battery bank a reasonable temp without heaters or cooling... I let the earth do the job.

I use radiant floor heating (concrete slab floor) which is the most efficient way to heat the home I could find.
I use solar thermal panels to heat antifreeze, pump it directly to the floor tubes.
Very little losses, and keeps the boiler from running almost 90% of the time it used to!
A little electric pump is all the system needs to heat the house when combined with the solar sun room making heat.

My family moved houses for a living for about 50 years,
Something we found in the old Victorian houses was bricks stacked in the south and west facing walls...
Thermal Mass.
When insulation wasn't used, the bricks absorbed the heat in the day time,
Radiated heat all night...
I couldn't figure it out when I was a kid, but now it makes real sense!

I use thermal mass, the concrete floor is my thermal mass,
Floors are always warm in winter (Little Woman REALLY likes that part!).
Heavily insulated roof/walls, thermal mass floor, the house maintains temperature easily.

Consider an 'Air Lock' door you use the most. (Mud room with two doors, automatic closures)
The sun room works as an air lock for us before you enter the house and disrupt the inside temp.

6" or 8" walls for insulation are becoming common,
So are poured concrete are also becoming common.
One is heavily insulated, the other is thermal mass.

There are a ton of ideas out there, see what you can plan into your home when you are considering building...


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