# American slavery-it's current place in society



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

This is my view only- 

I'm not sure at what point slavery became a white-excluded proposition in the US- I suppose that there must have been a point somewhere that it ceased to exist. I'm sure that every person in the world has a slave ancestor in their pedigree as it was so common as to be virtually unnoticed except by the slaves. Every conqueror took the losers as slaves if they were at all useful.

Having said that, slavery very gradually ceased, outside of Africa and Asia, except for slavery based on race in the colonized countries. It's like people started being seen as beings with rights- first extended to conquerors, then property owners, then co-religionists, then males, then other races then women. 

Personally I see the American Civil War as the point at which slavery ceased to be legal. But then the Jim Crowe laws still made most of the conditions of slavery continue for non-whites. A sort of back door slavery. I believe that this is one of the defects of American policy- that if you create the opportunity, people will exercise democracy. No- people have to want it and take in in their own two hands. It can not be given- it must be taken.
It wasn't until the Civil Rights activism in the 1960's that black people forced the rest of the nation to take note that the old casual butalilty was not going to continue. Women then rode on their coattails to achieve more freedom for themselves as did many Indian peoples. We have a very turbulent period of adjustment- in which we still live.

Bascially we are still so close to that history that we can't be sure what is really going on- we have not yet found a secure place where things are defined.

I know if I were black, I would be angry at all the lost opportunities of the past along with wariness about whether the last (I hope last) dregs of racism against me can finally be drained. Many black people can not feel safe yet. It's not been very long since lynching a black person did not result in any justice at all. Less than 50 years.
If once in a hundred interactions, I still would suffer from violent threats just because of my race, I would still be keeping an eye out regularly because I know the history. I would believe that white people did not know the history as they treated my situation so dismissively.
I would also have that nagging doubt about my own race's ability to cope with a white society that was so recently violent. Pushed into the back of my mind but there. I would want reassurance that these times will not return. Too soon for trust automatically by far.

On the other hand, racism and slavery based on racism is not on the minds of white people continuously because it does not generally mean a threat to their own lives. 
If I am white, it is just not much on my horizon. It is not often I am in the position of being abused due to race. Although that is more frequent recently.
But I can see what might happen- I might have my race fall into that catagory if I don't watch it. So I am not as secure as I appear either. Not if those fears are raised. There would be a fear that others might do unto me as I have done unto them. Nothing like having wronged people to make you distrust them.

So still there is very little place to meet comfortably. But that is to be expected- there are many people who are alive today who experienced this. We are still adjusting. There are many unresolved problems. 

It is not comfortable and will not be comfortable for some time. After all, slavery still exists. It seems to be a human tendency to want an easier life on someone else's sweat. 

And you can't just waive a magic wand to make it all better. There is certainly a difference of opinion as to what would heal this difference. 

I don't think there are ways to make it alright- neither breast beating by whites or demands of reperations by blacks. Those are simply outside tokens to be demanded to show true inside change. And neither are true change themselves. 

Time will show the way I hope. All that can be done is to act well personally- if you can figure what this is.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

where I want to said:


> This is my view only-
> 
> I'm not sure at what point slavery became a white-excluded proposition in the US- I suppose that there must have been a point somewhere that it ceased to exist. I'm sure that every person in the world has a slave ancestor in their pedigree as it was so common as to be virtually unnoticed except by the slaves. Every conqueror took the losers as slaves if they were at all useful.
> 
> ...



Wow...intelligence on racism...are you on the right forum??? I will explain the reason for reparations however. Native Americans receive 'reparations' for the harm that has been done to them, and no one blinks an eye. When we ask for reparations, the first thing they shout is no one alive was a slave, well, no one alive was personally hurt at Wounded Knee but your tax dollars are paying for it time and time again. 

Yes, there are gov't programs for poor people, but it is just that, for poor people. There is nothing available just for blacks, to use to get on their feet as a people, not just one or two. Reparations would change that, and probably end the need for welfare by poorer blacks. Some folks on this very board have told me to go back to Africa...who knows, give us our reparations and maybe we will, so we can make a difference there. Reparations is not a hand out, as most people on this board seem to think, it is more like unpaid wages finally being paid. The money need not come from tax dollars, but from the companies who benefited from our labor, and unless your ancestors were large plantation owners, you have nothing to fear. Many companies still in business are quite capable of paying reparations, and should. 

But poor whites have always been against reparations even though it would not come out of their pockets, because it is now as it was in slavery, there HAS to be someone lower than themselves so they can feel better about their position.


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## Jenn (Nov 9, 2004)

Interesting. I felt myself bristle where you mentioned "Women then rode on their coattails" and also feel as many do 'I personally never discriminated against anyone based on race so my fears of being discriminated against [as a white] are NOT based on any fear of "fear that others might do unto me as I have done unto them" '

Anyway thanks for your thoughts, and as I thought of lynchings and women's rights and that now lynching blacks is an unacceptable abomination, I wonder when raping women might truly be an unacceptable abomination- so unacceptable that it almost never happens instead of happens all too often. Not to mention abuse of children which is also way more common than you would think given how little anyone condones it.

I am unclear what reparations will do if it is from government funds. Most of my people (probably all, I am not certain) never owned slaves in America and I expect the slaves my people HAVE captured are just as much a part of my genetic heritage if they have any descendants at all. (Vikings)

I feel anyone marked as different and lessor, by their skin color or anything, has a mark against them. So I like the idea of affirmative action until the time someday when skin color does NOT give anyone a lower starting point. However I feel economic disadvantage is bigger than simple race and see no value in affirmative action benefiting blacks with many other advantages already but doing nothing to raise people from a lower than average position. As in my college where Wall Street firms handed out summer jobs to minorities who were prep school graduates and whose dads might already have wall street jobs but not to actually disadvantaged kids (though maybe none such were willing to work at wall street...)


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

vickiesmom said:


> Wow...intelligence on racism...are you on the right forum??? I will explain the reason for reparations however. Native Americans receive 'reparations' for the harm that has been done to them, and no one blinks an eye. When we ask for reparations, the first thing they shout is no one alive was a slave, well, no one alive was personally hurt at Wounded Knee but your tax dollars are paying for it time and time again.
> 
> Yes, there are gov't programs for poor people, but it is just that, for poor people. There is nothing available just for blacks, to use to get on their feet as a people, not just one or two. Reparations would change that, and probably end the need for welfare by poorer blacks. Some folks on this very board have told me to go back to Africa...who knows, give us our reparations and maybe we will, so we can make a difference there. Reparations is not a hand out, as most people on this board seem to think, it is more like unpaid wages finally being paid. *The money need not come from tax dollars, but from the companies who benefited from our labor, and unless your ancestors were large plantation owners, you have nothing to fear. Many companies still in business are quite capable of paying reparations, and should.*
> 
> But poor whites have always been against reparations even though it would not come out of their pockets, because it is now as it was in slavery, there HAS to be someone lower than themselves so they can feel better about their position.


Right. 

Those companies that were made to pay reparations wouldn't pass on that expense to consumers (taxpayers)?

BTW, I'd be interested in seeing a list of large plantation owners who are still in business from whom reparations could be collected from. I was unaware that any large plantations still existed. :stars:


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Sorry, but Reparations is another word for handout. 
Can someone explain what good it would do, how it would help finally 'get people on their feet'? Its been 150 years since slavery has ended and 50 years since the civil rights movement, if Blacks are not "on their feet" by now, just how will another handout will get them there? Be specific please.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Another thought, how can Blacks claim they've had no opportunity to 'get on their feet' when there is a Black man in the White House, another on the Supreme Court, a number of them in Congress? 
Perhaps people who want to improve their circumstances already can, no matter what their color and without another handout.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

As a white woman, I can honestly say that one of the most eye-opening experiences in my life was to work in an environment in which whites were the minority and almost universally disliked. 

It is very tiresome to continually encounter people who pre-judge your beliefs and motives. It's very easy to become weary of trying to overcome other people's automatic negative assumptions about you! 

I can't pretend to fully understand how blacks and other minorities feel, but I think I gained some understanding as to how hard it would be to spend an entire lifetime in that position.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

The OP made the comment about "wanting an easier life on someone else's sweat"...I call that welfare and government entitlement programs!!!! How easy is it to sit home and collect free money while people like myself work and pay taxes to support you?


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

The day I'm made to pay reparations to blacks, knowing I'm a descendant of several whites who came here as indentured children, a smidge of native american, smidge of sub saharan african and part chinese (according to the DNA) which is common in Northern Europeans, no matter how blond, is the day I'd be paying myself. 

Exactly how much black is enough? And if you're not a slave owner? And if you're one of the MAJORITY of whites who came here indentured and never got free because it was nothing if not corrupt? And if you're european and MORE THAN LIKELY descended from slaves of Romans, or slaves of Vikings, or slaves of Celts, or slaves of Saxons, or slaves of the spanish, or slaves of the visigoths.......

Seriously, people need to get over themselves. Everyone is descended of a slave. Period dot. This constant self hatred and pity party doesn't cut it anymore. African descent people (as long as they don't look white) get more college money, more freebies and even more free lawyers to defend them in criminal court and don't forget ACORN than anyone else. If that isn't enough of a hand up...then let us give you one more thing. A one way ticket somewhere else. America is for those who were disadvantaged and hated and discriminated against where they were and here they can make it on their own merits. If you have no merits to work with, then look to your parents, not to my wallet.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

vickiesmom said:


> But *poor whites* have always been against reparations even though it would not come out of their pockets, because it is now as it was in slavery, there HAS to be someone lower than themselves so they can feel better about their position.


Another question.......why should reparations come only from white slave-owners? Why would you ignore the black Africans who CAPTURED and SOLD their fellow Africans into slavery?? Why would you ignore the BLACK slave owners that existed in the US?????

Are you conveniently ignoring the facts?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

If reparations are ever made, and an amount is agreed upon - can we please credit all the welfare payments made to each person "qualified" and the payments made to their ancestors - then see if it's an amount still owed, or a credit to pay back to the government?


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

AngieM2 said:


> If reparations are ever made, and an amount is agreed upon - can we please credit all the welfare payments made to each person "qualified" and the payments made to their ancestors - then see if it's an amount still owed, or a credit to pay back to the government?


:bow::bow::bow:


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

this is interesting.

I think you have confirmed what a red herring reparations are. Despite the OP premise that reparations are merely a token recognition of a more complex interaction, most of the post zero right in on the hot button issue - its impracticality, perceived injustice, etc. 

I think they are an imperfect response on two levels - money is only money, it is a fallacy that injustices can be made right through cash payments, and secondly, it distracts us from discussing and understanding how we interact and form policy related to our mutual relationships.

By the by, one poster suggested American Indians received reparations, but I think this probably confuses treaty entitlements with the notion of reparations. Although money may change hands in both cases, they are a fundamentally different transaction.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

My white German ancestors came here after the civil war. 

Do we get to pay reparations too?


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

AngieM2 said:


> If reparations are ever made, and an amount is agreed upon - can we please credit all the welfare payments made to each person "qualified" and the payments made to their ancestors - then see if it's an amount still owed, or a credit to pay back to the government?


you think a measly 200 a month in foodstamps and 300 in rent is enough for a price of a child? OH really? how much is your children worth?


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

Txsteader said:


> Another question.......why should reparations come only from white slave-owners? Why would you ignore the black Africans who CAPTURED and SOLD their fellow Africans into slavery?? Why would you ignore the BLACK slave owners that existed in the US?????
> 
> Are you conveniently ignoring the facts?


ha...ellison was one black slave magnet..interesting he went on own slaves

http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

vickiesmom said:


> Wow...intelligence on racism...are you on the right forum??? I will explain the reason for reparations however. Native Americans receive 'reparations' for the harm that has been done to them, and no one blinks an eye. When we ask for reparations, the first thing they shout is no one alive was a slave, well, no one alive was personally hurt at Wounded Knee but your tax dollars are paying for it time and time again.
> 
> Yes, there are gov't programs for poor people, but it is just that, for poor people. There is nothing available just for blacks, to use to get on their feet as a people, not just one or two. Reparations would change that, and probably end the need for welfare by poorer blacks. Some folks on this very board have told me to go back to Africa...who knows, give us our reparations and maybe we will, so we can make a difference there. Reparations is not a hand out, as most people on this board seem to think, it is more like unpaid wages finally being paid. The money need not come from tax dollars, but from the companies who benefited from our labor, and unless your ancestors were large plantation owners, you have nothing to fear. Many companies still in business are quite capable of paying reparations, and should.
> 
> But poor whites have always been against reparations even though it would not come out of their pockets, because it is now as it was in slavery, there HAS to be someone lower than themselves so they can feel better about their position.


liberia was established by free black former slaves. very interesting history, BTW. I work with a man from there..his great grandparents were former american slaves. 

no, he doesnt think twice about coming back to the land where his family was enslaved...He LOVES america. I found it rather odd..but apparently some are very forgiving..lololol

as far as reparations...there isnt enough money to undue the harm that has been done for hundreds of years. how do you put a price on the pain of having your family sold? your children advertised for 20 bucks in the paper? Of being buried in mass graves..unmarked so that even TODAY we are still finding mass graves of slaves buried when digging for wells...fixing roads?


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

lilmizlayla said:


> you think a measly 200 a month in foodstamps and 300 in rent is enough for a price of a child? OH really? how much is your children worth?


My child is worth me getting off my butt and going to work to provide for.

My child is worth me limiting my breeding so I can provide for his/her needs sufficiently without relying on the government.

My child is worth me waiting to have him/her until after I was married and financially stable enough to live in a safe neighborhood.

My child is worth having his/her father's name and having daily contact/interaction with him.

My child is worth me modeling the importance of providing for our needs and not relying on the system even when things get tough.


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## TJN66 (Aug 29, 2004)

lilmizlayla said:


> you think a measly 200 a month in foodstamps and 300 in rent is enough for a price of a child? OH really? how much is your children worth?


Oh I dont know. When you collect your whole life thats a lot of money. Also...in NY...you get a whole lot more than that. I know...I see the paperwork. And since those children and parents are not alive now. Consider it payment rendered.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

willow_girl said:


> As a white woman, I can honestly say that one of the most eye-opening experiences in my life was to work in an environment in which whites were the minority and almost universally disliked.
> 
> It is very tiresome to continually encounter people who pre-judge your beliefs and motives. It's very easy to become weary of trying to overcome other people's automatic negative assumptions about you!
> 
> I can't pretend to fully understand how blacks and other minorities feel, but I think I gained some understanding as to how hard it would be to spend an entire lifetime in that position.


OMG!!! There is hope for this board! I love you! It is hard, and thank you for experiencing it. You always have to defend every black person's actions...every decision every black politician makes...but I am called racist. What if I judged every white person by every dumb thing that came out of one of your politicians mouths, or every dumbexcuse for raising taxes...or even something as judging all white kids by the children at Columbine...


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

lilmizlayla said:


> liberia was established by free black former slaves. very interesting history, BTW. I work with a man from there..his great grandparents were former american slaves.
> 
> no, he doesnt think twice about coming back to the land where his family was enslaved...He LOVES america. I found it rather odd..but apparently some are very forgiving..lololol
> 
> as far as reparations...there isnt enough money to undue the harm that has been done for hundreds of years. how do you put a price on the pain of having your family sold? your children advertised for 20 bucks in the paper? Of being buried in mass graves..unmarked so that even TODAY we are still finding mass graves of slaves buried when digging for wells...fixing roads?


So what you are saying it is better to just drop it and forget it since you feel you can never atone for a sin? Should the families of those who died in the Holocaust just forget about it, because no money can bring their families back from the ovens? So do you just hurt people and walk away feeling nothing you do will make up for it? That is a pretty pathetic way of looking at it. But, we have a history of America doing pretty pathetic things.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

The Cherokee Indians owned Black slaves. Maybe the gooberment could redirect funds destined for them to reparations...................


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## Gregg Alexander (Feb 18, 2007)

This is a picture of Whites and Blacks picking cotton on my family's farm dated 1935









The blacks were sharecroppers on this farm until 1939 when most went to work for the WPA as well as 4 of my uncles. With following cotton prices things looked very bleak for both Whites and Black in the South.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

seedspreader said:


> My white German ancestors came here after the civil war.
> 
> Do we get to pay reparations too?


I am really assuming you can read. I said large companies who profited from our ancestors. Families who owned large plantation, which for those of you who like to point at the same number of blacks and the same number of poor whites who had one or two would be exempt. Most people who fuss about it, don't even qualify. Which is when I read this board, I laugh. Most of your ancestors who were in the South, the same white ones you think are being thrown in to have to pay for reparations, were already helped by the freedmen's bureau which is why it ran out of money to help blacks.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

Gregg Alexander said:


> This is a picture of Whites and Blacks picking cotton on my family's farm dated 1935
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Difference between sharecropping and slavery...choice.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

tinknal said:


> The Cherokee Indians owned Black slaves. Maybe the gooberment could redirect funds destined for them to reparations...................


They should pay as well. Which is being looked into.


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## Gregg Alexander (Feb 18, 2007)

True, before the War of Northern Aggression my family owned all those sharecroppers ancestors. I was born on this farm birthed by a Black Midwife called her Aunt Minie all my life


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

vickiesmom said:


> So what you are saying it is better to just drop it and forget it since you feel you can never atone for a sin? Should the families of those who died in the Holocaust just forget about it, because no money can bring their families back from the ovens? So do you just hurt people and walk away feeling nothing you do will make up for it? That is a pretty pathetic way of looking at it. But, we have a history of America doing pretty pathetic things.


What's wrong with forgiving wrongs done against us?

Face it.....we're all victims of some wrong or another. ALL of us!! Should we all demand justice and reparations? 

The past is past. Let it go. That pound of flesh you're demanding, I guarantee you, will not erase the bitterness.....obviously, since those who were wronged and did wrong are mostly dead and rotting in the ground now. That bitterness is a sickness of the soul that no amount of money is going to make right.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

AngieM2 said:


> If reparations are ever made, and an amount is agreed upon - can we please credit all the welfare payments made to each person "qualified" and the payments made to their ancestors - then see if it's an amount still owed, or a credit to pay back to the government?


No, because then that would mean they would have to do the same equally to whites, as that is government. I am talking about private companies...we don't want it to look like the depression with a lot of poor white folks in breadlines, etc.:bored:


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

On many plantations, it was a black overseer holding the whip. They may have been a slave too, but they earned their status by their willingness to oppress other slaves. 

How much in reparations do we owe them for providing that valuable service?

Also, white Europeans did NOT like to go into the African jungle and round up slaves. Aside from malaria and wild animals, you could get a spear in the eye that way. So they relied heavily upon OTHER Africans, including Arabs, to round up weaker tribes for them and hustle them down to the coast where they waited for the slave ships.

Do the Zulu and other African tribes owe reparations for their part in slavery? How about the Arab world? How will we enforce their payment?

This argument is as impractical as it is stupid. Welfare has been far more destructive to the black race than ever slavery was. How can we imagine that reparations would be anything less than destructive?


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

So , would reparations be a one time thing for descendants of slaves, or would it be paid again each generation ad infinitum?


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

lilmizlayla said:


> ha...ellison was one black slave magnet..interesting he went on own slaves
> 
> http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm


From your link:


> The statistics show that, when free, blacks disproportionately became slave masters.


So, again.....are blacks going to be asked to pay reparations, too?


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## Gregg Alexander (Feb 18, 2007)

Aunt Minie's husband is on the left of the picture his name was Uncle Zek , little boy next to him is Tom , Bob, Big John, Abe, last is unnamed. I don't owe no one any thing for what my family did, it was the times they lived in. Several of my family came over here as white slaves form Ireland and Scotland in the 1700's


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

My family were Scottish, a breed so cheap that they would never have owned slaves when they could have had children instead.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

Ernie said:


> On many plantations, it was a black overseer holding the whip. They may have been a slave too, but they earned their status by their willingness to oppress other slaves.
> 
> How much in reparations do we owe them for providing that valuable service?
> 
> ...



The argument will only be stupid until whites figure out a way to profit from it. If you knew anything about my race which by your post I can tell you do not, you would know that many black politicians ARE bargaining reparations from African countries which profited from selling their own. One country is proposing giving American blacks passports as citizens...but at the same time, we must demand from the recipients as well, which again, probably does not include you.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

I'd be happy to pay reparations to anyone who can prove *THEY *were a slave.
Otherwise, they aren't owed anything at all


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

tinknal said:


> The Cherokee Indians owned Black slaves. Maybe the gooberment could redirect funds destined for them to reparations...................





vickiesmom said:


> The argument will only be stupid until whites figure out a way to profit from it. If you knew anything about my race which by your post I can tell you do not, you would know that many black politicians ARE bargaining reparations from African countries which profited from selling their own. One country is proposing giving American blacks passports as citizens...but at the same time, we must demand from the recipients as well, which again, probably does not include you.


Again, what's wrong with forgiveness? Giving mercy in order to receive mercy?

Do you truly believe that 'a pound of flesh' will appease the bitterness?

Somehow, I doubt it.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

Might not appease it, but it sure might help it slide down a bit better.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

tinknal said:


> So , would reparations be a one time thing for descendants of slaves, or would it be paid again each generation ad infinitum?


One time thing. It would be put into a trust fund for each family group a certain amount payable per capita twice a year. There could be stipulations on how the money is used, housing, business...anything that helps that family unit. It could not be used for luxury items or luxury expenses. The motivation is to become totally self reliant.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Txsteader said:


> Again, what's wrong with forgiveness? Giving mercy in order to receive mercy?
> 
> Do you truly believe that 'a pound of flesh' will appease the bitterness?
> 
> Somehow, I doubt it.


Tex, you should know that my tongue was deeply buried in my cheek when I made that post............... We need a sarcasm smilie........


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I'd be happy to pay reparations to anyone who can prove *THEY *were a slave.
> Otherwise, they aren't owed anything at all[/QUOTE
> 
> So glad we aren't asking you for any then.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

vickiesmom said:


> Bearfootfarm said:
> 
> 
> > I'd be happy to pay reparations to anyone who can prove *THEY *were a slave.
> ...


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

vickiesmom said:


> I am really assuming you can read. I said large companies who profited from our ancestors. Families who owned large plantation, which for those of you who like to point at the same number of blacks and the same number of poor whites who had one or two would be exempt. Most people who fuss about it, don't even qualify. Which is when I read this board, I laugh. Most of your ancestors who were in the South, the same white ones you think are being thrown in to have to pay for reparations, were already helped by the freedmen's bureau which is why it ran out of money to help blacks.


I was assuming you could reason. 

Perhaps you could bone up on personal responsibilities, laws dealing with corporations and laws concerning inheritance.

How in the world would a "family" that owned a large plantation, that was OWNED by an individual, be able to pay you. Especially some ******* living on his 1.5 acres and a mobile home because his great, great great uncle was wealthy.

Likewise, since it was tribes in Africa that sold each other, (which when taken back far enough, are related), wouldn't that mean that YOU are responsible for your own reparation?

You're trying to reason out the unreasonable. On one hand, you realize that there is a VAST swath of people in the US (including many Irish, German and Polish immigrants) that had nothing to do with slavery, so you can make your unreasonable request to them... and then on the other you try to make it the responsibility of "corporations who profited from slavery". 

When challenged for a list of the corporations that are around today that have "profited from slavery", you realize THAT position is untenable, and then jump to families of plantation owners.

I am hoping you will eventually realize THAT position is untenable also and grow beyond your hatred.

Call me the eternal optimist.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

shanzone2001 said:


> My child is worth me getting off my butt and going to work to provide for.
> 
> My child is worth me limiting my breeding so I can provide for his/her needs sufficiently without relying on the government.
> 
> ...


Amen Sister!:bow:


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Vickiesmom, you are the crab at the bottom of the bucket.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

vickiesmom said:


> The argument will only be stupid until whites figure out a way to profit from it. If you knew anything about my race which by your post I can tell you do not, you would know that many black politicians ARE bargaining reparations from African countries which profited from selling their own. One country is proposing giving American blacks passports as citizens...but at the same time, we must demand from the recipients as well, which again, probably does not include you.


I know more about your race than I care to, mostly because you broadcast it in every thread.

Show me one news article please where a legitimate politician, black or white, is actively bargaining reparations from any African country. Not just calling for it, but engaged in discussions with that country's leadership.

My take on this is that most people calling for reparations have failed somehow in life, probably monetarily, and are grasping at this straw in order to try and get a little more out of the system. They certainly can't be calling for reparations out of some sense of justice or fair play.

Slavery is four or five generations dead and many, MANY white people DIED in order to free the slaves. Are you saying that only Southern slave states should have to pay reparations? What about those families who through Reconstruction were forced to flee the South in order to sustain themselves, or who had their farms and land taken at gunpoint by the Northern troops? They may have lived for two generations in Boston or Wisconsin, but will you find some way to track them down and make them pay?

What about the Northern factories that made benefit of cheap cotton? 

Where exactly do you propose to draw this ridiculous line?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

tinknal said:


> Vickiesmom, you are the crab at the bottom of the bucket.


I can't make out whether that's a compliment or an insult.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

tinknal said:


> Tex, you should know that my tongue was deeply buried in my cheek when I made that post............... We need a sarcasm smilie........


I did. I was just using your quote in reference to her reply.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Ernie said:


> I can't make out whether that's a compliment or an insult.


Google "crab bucket syndrome".


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I was robbed by two black men when I was a kid. I figure Oprah owes me something.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Txsteader said:


> From your link:
> 
> *The statistics show that, when free, blacks disproportionately became slave masters. *
> 
> So, again.....are blacks going to be asked to pay reparations, too?


Many blacks purchased their own family members in order to have "legal" rights to them to ensure that the families were not separated. A freed slave might not be able to remain free if someone confiscated their papers and they non-slaves HAD to carry their papers to prove that they were free. If you were owned by a relative, then that relative could always produce the papers or hire a lawyer to present the paperwork. It was a form of protection.

The story of Solomon Northrup comes to mind... He was born a free man, yet he had to carry papers proving that he was. 

Solomon Northrup


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

seedspreader said:


> Likewise, since it was tribes in Africa that sold each other, (which when taken back far enough, are related), wouldn't that mean that YOU are responsible for your own reparation?


Ouch! That's gonna leave a mark.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

tinknal said:


> So , would reparations be a one time thing for descendants of slaves, or would it be paid again each generation ad infinitum?


That's a great point. Will each baby born get his birth certificate and a check for X amount of dollars, forever?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Crab bucket syndrome ... heh ... I get it now.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

tinknal said:


> Google "crab bucket syndrome".


http://www.greggriffin.com/Editorials/CrabBucket.htm


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

seedspreader said:


> http://www.greggriffin.com/Editorials/CrabBucket.htm


That sounds similar to what Bill Cosby was trying to tell young Black people and was not appreciated.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I wrote a long post and decided to delete it. No one's opinion would have been changed by what I had to say, but some would have looked for a reason to be offended by it. So it's gone.

But I will say this. Obstacles are stepping stones to success. Go around them or over them, or even blow them up, but never let them stop you. The greatest limitations are those we place on ourselves. Having a great, great, great, great grandfather that was a slave is interesting history, but not much more.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

How very true, MoonRiver. How very true.


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## TJN66 (Aug 29, 2004)

Huh...never knew about the crab syndrome. I know lots of people like that sorry to say. I avoid em like the plague unless I absolutely have to deal with them. Then its quick and to the point. Let them wallow in thier own misery. No thank you..Im not wanting any part of that party.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Will Obama be paying or receiving?
My family never owned any slaves, but I'm forced to pay merely because I''m white?
Talk about racist.


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## vickiesmom (Feb 25, 2005)

Obama would not qualify. Boy I see why your ancestors needed my ancestors.


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## deb (Jul 27, 2002)

vickiesmom said:


> Wow...intelligence on racism...are you on the right forum??? I will explain the reason for reparations however. Native Americans receive 'reparations' for the harm that has been done to them, and no one blinks an eye. When we ask for reparations, the first thing they shout is no one alive was a slave, well, no one alive was personally hurt at Wounded Knee but your tax dollars are paying for it time and time again.


I think your argument would be stronger if you did not compare the situation between the Native Americans because the 2 situations are vastly different.

However since you are stuck on "reparations", I think I will add this:
Most of the treaties that were made by the US Government with the Native Americans were not followed through by the US Govt. Millions of acres of land were taken, large populations were physically moved to other areas and millions of dollars of payments were not made. Many of the smaller Native American tribes or tribal remnants were never recognized by the US Government and never received any compensation or aid. 

If the US Govt. had followed through with their treaties, you may have had a strong argument to compare the situations, but that isn't possible..

(No, I am not Native American)

Deb
in WI


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Jenn said:


> Interesting. I felt myself bristle where you mentioned "Women then rode on their coattails" and also feel as many do 'I personally never discriminated against anyone based on race so my fears of being discriminated against [as a white] are NOT based on any fear of "fear that others might do unto me as I have done unto them" '


For me, I can always conceive of myself being in anothers place. In otherwords, if girls in Afgahnastan can be killed for going to school, or widows have to starve in their house because they are not allowed out without a man, then I feel a chill going up my back. 
The same with military service where the strain of constant threat of death in a horrible way saps the joy of life right out of you- even if I have never been in that position and would never be likely to be. Still causes a shudder. I can also feel the echos of the deep friendships formed of this understanding. 

The OP was not an advocation of a solution for the tension- just an idea of the feelings involved on both sides.

I feel that both sides are the natural result of being human and in a situation. I also do not believe in racial guilt or innocence. IMO all groups are as evil as they can get away with being and good must struggle mightily against it.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Txsteader said:


> What's wrong with forgiving wrongs done against us?


Nothing at all, if you're the one doing the forgiving for wrongs done to you. 



> Face it.....we're all victims of some wrong or another. ALL of us!! Should we all demand justice and reparations?
> 
> The past is past. Let it go. That pound of flesh you're demanding, I guarantee you, will not erase the bitterness.....obviously, since those who were wronged and did wrong are mostly dead and rotting in the ground now. That bitterness is a sickness of the soul that no amount of money is going to make right.


You can't demand that other people forgive heinous wrongs done to them, particularly if you hold a point of view that glosses over those wrongs. This is like the stereotypical child molester or abuser who demands that the now grown child forgive them, because after all, "it was only once", or "I could have done more" or "aw come on, you know you wanted it". 

It is the exact same mentality. :flame:


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I better post fast before this entire thread gets the old lockdown of goes off to banned thread heaven.

I think Blacks, African Americans, Descendants of North American Slaves [went to the Facebook page referenced, and there's nothing there...13 followers, six listed, three white] should really do a little thinking, before they dig up the all the angry bones that are buried. It's been 145 years since slavery ended, and 40 since the Civil Rights Laws were passed. That's 7 generations of freedom, two of which have been under the Civil Rights era, with full welfare priveleges. It's been a long time since Blacks were Denied Anything, because of their pigmentation. I don't know about all the citified folks, but whites, blacks, mexicans, and even a good smattering of Asians (recently) live side by side without any problems.

Bring up reparations, and be prepared to set race relations back to the fifties... set it back even more than the first dark pigmented man to be elected to the White House. When 95% of a race votes for a candidate, there's where the racism is.

Please, someone, anyone, please name a single company, corporation, or business, based in the South, before the War of Northern Agression, that survived the War. If it did survive the war, did it survive the reparations act, uh, er, Reconstruction? Pretty much everyone that had anything, lost it during the War. If they survived the war, the Carpetbagging Reconstructionists took what was left. There ARE companies that existed at that time, but they were located in the North... and they gave up slave labor the slave owners in the South. Why? Because free people were cheaper than slaves. You could work them to death, for pennies, and not worry about losing the expensive to own slaves. Free people are free... pay them for their services... if they die, no big deal... nothing lost. Slaves were different... they cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars... to work them to death wasn't wise financially. And, you had to feed them, clothe them, shelter them, and take care of their general welfare. The Yankee capitalist system (with the invention of the cotton gin and other labor saving devices) would soon have taken over the South. What wealthy planter would want to buy a slave for what he could hire hundreds of free people for.

I've never seen 'ads' for $20 slaves. I have seen them for 500 to a thousand. Prevailing wages were less than a dollar a day (and that would have been a good wage).

Reparations is a pipe dream. I represented a class of royalty/land owners last year... I thought (erroneously it seems) that they were rational people. I knew the group was made up of poor rural Black folks. The 'leader' borrowed money and had all the 'shareholders' flown in from all over the country, in February of last year, and put them up in a luxury hotel. I was to present the facts of the case on their royalty dilemma. I hadn't talked but five minutes out of my scheduled hour, when I was shouted down... All the facts in the world mattered not, Obama, a dark skinned man, was president and he was going to make things right. As a light skinned man, I bit my tongue, sat down, and wondered if I was going to be paid for my services. Turns out I wasn't. $1500 of my time, down the drain.

So... I have a small business. Most every line of my ancestors owned slaves of one sort or another. Only one slave wasn't freed... he didn't want to be, as he knew he'd die without my GGGrandfathers care (he was crippled and couldn't walk)... So, if my company (of me, myself, and I) is asked to make reparations for my ancestors, I'll gladly show them the receipts for work done, and not paid, by a group of former slaves.

Reparations goes through.... get ready for a lot of animosity... I'd recommend getting that unnamed African Country's passport ahead of time. ...and the 'negotiations' with unnamed African Country for reparations... good luck with that. Be very careful if they ask for your 'bank account' information... Nigerians don't care if they rip off whites, blacks, or whatevers...

I can't imagine ANY African country being better than the worst American State.

what am I doing on this soapbox?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Will Obama be paying or receiving?


He'd write himself a big check and call it good


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> He'd write himself a big check and call it good


Obama would have to pay... as his Arab ancestors were directly involved in the slave trade. He wouldn't be able to collect, because he's not an American citizen :angel:... couldn't resist. However, since his only American ancestors are white, he'd have no claim. His Arab African father was not a citizen, and never felt the 'pains' of slavery.

I'm wondering if reparations were to pass, how it would work. Simply having dark skin wouldn't work. A genealogical assessment would have to be done. DNA tests also. But what about the lighter skinned Black Americans who only have 1/4, 1/8, 1/16th, etc. African blood in their veins. IF they could prove a slave master forced themselves on them (how would one prove if it was 'consensual' 150 years later)... would a persons payment be pegged to the melanin content... the darker the more money, lighter less?

Earlier, I believe it was Vickiesmom who suggested reparations would be used for the betterment of the reparationee... no luxury goods, but money to make them independent. Sorry, why not wish for free pie or free beer everyday forever, delivered by silver skinned unicorns. IF reparations were paid, the individual would be able to buy anything they wanted with it, whether it be a business that would provide them with income forever, or blow it all on a set of wheels. Such is freedom. Telling anyone what they can or cannot do is a tenet of slavery.

Back when I was getting into genealogy I was contacted by some Black 'cousins' from back in Georgia... back when one of my GGGrandpas left Georgia, he had a very large white and black family... we traded what information we had.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

vickiesmom said:


> Obama would not qualify. Boy I see why your ancestors needed my ancestors.


Wow....


I actually had to come back and edit my comment because it would have most likely warrented a demerit.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

vickiesmom said:


> always have to defend every black person's actions...every decision every black politician makes...but I am called racist.


ummmmm.......if you would defend every person's actions, every decision every politician makes regardless of color than no you would not be a racist.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

vickiesmom said:


> you would know that many black politicians ARE bargaining reparations from African countries which profited from selling their own. One country is proposing giving American blacks passports as citizens


Do you wanna go back to Africa? If so I'll pay for your boat ride and we can call it even....lol



tinknal said:


> Vickiesmom, you are the crab at the bottom of the bucket.


DO NOT INSULT CRABS LIKE THAT!!

The MD Blue Crab is very tasty :sing:


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Helianthus said:


> You can't demand that other people forgive heinous wrongs done to them, :flame:


I don't demand it, God does.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Helianthus said:


> You can't demand that other people forgive heinous wrongs done to them, particularly if you hold a point of view that glosses over those wrongs. This is like the stereotypical child molester or abuser who demands that the now grown child forgive them, because after all, "it was only once", or "I could have done more" or "aw come on, you know you wanted it".
> 
> It is the exact same mentality. :flame:


Except we're talking about events from 100+ years ago. Even Vickiesmom admitted that _reparations wouldn't appease the bitterness_, but only make it 'easier to swallow'.

That says a lot.


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## Immaculate Sublimity (Apr 30, 2003)

*THREAD DRIFT* (before it gets locked down) I just gotta know... The people squawling for these reparitions... were they in line in NOLA as well, ----ing and moaning about the new house and wardrobe and toys we OWED them? I mean...Seriously.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

willow_girl said:


> As a white woman, I can honestly say that one of the most eye-opening experiences in my life was to work in an environment in which whites were the minority and almost universally disliked.
> 
> It is very tiresome to continually encounter people who pre-judge your beliefs and motives. It's very easy to become weary of trying to overcome other people's automatic negative assumptions about you!
> 
> I can't pretend to fully understand how blacks and other minorities feel, but I think I gained some understanding as to how hard it would be to spend an entire lifetime in that position.


Obviously, "Where I want to" gets a POTA. But also, this, WG.

I too, have worked in a predominately black workplace & felt I was well liked...but notsomuch my race.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

How much $$ per person that 'qualifies" are we talking about?


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

vickiesmom said:


> Wow...intelligence on racism...are you on the right forum??? I will explain the reason for reparations however. Native Americans receive 'reparations' for the harm that has been done to them, and no one blinks an eye. When we ask for reparations, the first thing they shout is no one alive was a slave, well, no one alive was personally hurt at Wounded Knee but your tax dollars are paying for it time and time again.
> 
> Yes, there are gov't programs for poor people, but it is just that, for poor people. There is nothing available just for blacks, to use to get on their feet as a people, not just one or two. Reparations would change that, and probably end the need for welfare by poorer blacks. Some folks on this very board have told me to go back to Africa...who knows, give us our reparations and maybe we will, so we can make a difference there. Reparations is not a hand out, as most people on this board seem to think, it is more like unpaid wages finally being paid. The money need not come from tax dollars, but from the companies who benefited from our labor, and unless your ancestors were large plantation owners, you have nothing to fear. Many companies still in business are quite capable of paying reparations, and should.
> 
> But poor whites have always been against reparations even though it would not come out of their pockets, because it is now as it was in slavery, there HAS to be someone lower than themselves so they can feel better about their position.


I'm all for reparations as long as the starting point is in the form of one way tickets back to Africa with no right to reentry.


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

texican said:


> Obama would have to pay... as his Arab ancestors were directly involved in the slave trade. He wouldn't be able to collect, because he's not an American citizen :angel:... couldn't resist. However, since his only American ancestors are white, he'd have no claim. His Arab African father was not a citizen, and never felt the 'pains' of slavery.
> 
> I'm wondering if reparations were to pass, how it would work. Simply having dark skin wouldn't work. A genealogical assessment would have to be done. DNA tests also. But what about the lighter skinned Black Americans who only have 1/4, 1/8, 1/16th, etc. African blood in their veins. IF they could prove a slave master forced themselves on them (how would one prove if it was 'consensual' 150 years later)... would a persons payment be pegged to the melanin content... the darker the more money, lighter less?
> 
> ...


I'd have to say Obama is still in the slave trading business.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

MoonRiver said:


> *I wrote a long post and decided to delete it. No one's opinion would have been changed by what I had to say, but some would have looked for a reason to be offended by it. So it's gone.*
> 
> But I will say this. Obstacles are stepping stones to success. Go around them or over them, or even blow them up, but never let them stop you. The greatest limitations are those we place on ourselves. Having a great, great, great, great grandfather that was a slave is interesting history, but not much more.


:bdh:


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Wanderer0101 said:


> I'd have to say Obama is still in the slave trading business.


Obama is the single largest (and black too) slave owner today.
He owns every single person on welfare, and he owns every single person who sits on their butts and doesn't look for work, but waits at the mail box for the unemployment check.
Make no mistake. He owns you. When you take the hand out, you are owned.

He now owns everyone who takes federally funded student loans.

Oh yeah baby......bama is the LARGEST slave owner (black too) that is out there.

*slave*
&#8211;noun1.a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant. 

2.a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person.


*masÂ·ter*
&#8211;noun1.a person with the ability or power to use, control, or dispose of something: a master of six languages; to be master of one's fate. 

2.an owner of a slave, animal, etc. 

3.an employer of workers or servants.

*adjective*24.being master; exercising mastery; dominant. 
25.chief or principal: a master list. 
26.directing or controlling
28.dominating or predominant: a master play. 

verb (used with object)32.to make oneself master of; become an adept in
33.to conquer or overcome
34.to rule or direct as master: to master a crew. 


*&#8212;Synonyms *
1. adept, expert. 26. main, leading, primary, prime, cardinal. 31. adept, expert, skillful. 33. *subdue, control. *34. *govern, manage*.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Txsteader said:


> Another question.......why should reparations come only from white slave-owners? Why would you ignore the black Africans who CAPTURED and SOLD their fellow Africans into slavery?? Why would you ignore the BLACK slave owners that existed in the US?????
> 
> Are you conveniently ignoring the facts?


Not to mention the Cherokee and other Native American tribes who owned back slaves.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

Slavery is a blight on all that were involved, in all nations of the world, (my disclaimer)..

IMHO reparations are more excuses for not standing up and taking care of problems that exist now. Constantly making excuses for failure dooms a person to more failure. Put all that wasted energy into making a good life for you and your family.

Take your lessons from Dr King and not from the Al Sharptons of the world. Just a suggestion.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Still waiting for a list of companies that would be made to pay reparations - and - that list of black Congresspeople who are working to get reparations from Africa. :bored:


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

And the best is yet to come!


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## Jenn (Nov 9, 2004)

In 1992-3 I met a (white, local) lawyer in NC who told us of interviewing secretaries and that they 'of course' couldn't hire one despite her qualifications because she was black. I was too flabbergasted to respond at the time.

In 1992 in NC a (black) woman told me of the upset over her daughter's fiance being white. Funny how she can confide in me her troubles but wouldn't want her son to marry me.

In 2006 various AL neighbors demonstrated their concerns about race- 'that company is mostly black workers' then after my shocked silence 'well I guess they have to earn money also', and a child telling DD6 then that white Barbie can't marry black Ken (they got a lecture from ME!)

I hope though the child is evidence I'm wrong that this will improve as the old die off, and I think only the first is illegal. My teen has apparently no concern over black or white or gay or straight, dunno if this is so for all at her schools or only some.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Jenn said:


> In 1992-3 I met a (white, local) lawyer in NC who told us of interviewing secretaries and that they 'of course' couldn't hire one despite her qualifications because she was black. I was too flabbergasted to respond at the time.


In 1976, I interviewed with the Navy for a position as a Management Analyst. (I had received a 100% on the federal exam.) At the end of the interview, one of the interviewers asked me how I knew so much about organizational management. The other gentleman walked me out and told me I was the most qualified candidate by far. But they couldn't hire me. First were veterans, then minorities, women, and last white males.



> In 1992 in NC a (black) woman told me of the upset over her daughter's fiance being white. Funny how she can confide in me her troubles but wouldn't want her son to marry me.


In 1976, I interviewed with the Army for a position as a Computer Analyst. (I had received a 100% on the federal exam.) After the interview, I asked the personnel rep what my chances were. She said even though I had a maximum score and a good interview, they're hiring priorities were veterans, then minorities, women, and last white males.

In 1988, I was charged with discriminatory hiring. Personnel (an African American) scolded me for not taking the charge seriously. He explained how damaging it could be to my career. It took him all of 2 days to find out the person making the complaint lied about his qualifications, lied about what was said in the interview, and lied about who I had hired and why I had hired them. The personnel guy was in my office apologizing for not believing me and said that I had handled the entire process in an honest and professional manner. My point is that the African American making the complaint was automatically believed and the white male manager was automatically doubted.

White males born in the 1940's and 1950's have paid a fairly high price in the workplace. Federal and state governments and many large companies had hiring policies that severely discriminated against white males. All discrimination is bad, not just discrimination against politically correct groups. Decide the rules and then let's all play by them.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

Yeah and I couldn't be a flight attendant in the 70's because I was to tall.. I was discriminated against!!!


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

texican said:


> Back when I was getting into genealogy I was contacted by some Black 'cousins' from back in Georgia... back when one of my GGGrandpas left Georgia, he had a very large white and black family... we traded what information we had.


It is always nice when people can get together and share this type of information. Descendants of slaves often run into so many roadblocks when trying to trace family history. There are very few photographs and precious few letters because slaves weren't allowed to be educated. As a result, there isn't much of a paper trail except slave sale records and the US Census.


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## Jenn (Nov 9, 2004)

I still think diversity and affirmative action are needed, not reparations. Because even blacks who have never been slaves or descended from slaves suffer from current discrimination. So fund more early education head start so black and poor kids can do as well in elementary school as middle class white kids. And when you put together a college class or a police force keep it from being boring, and unrepresentative of the people it polices/ will graduate to serve by mandating it NOT be all Asians all men all white whatever- if a state has 11% blacks and 15% hispanics 5% asian why not expect 5% black and 10% hispanic and no more than 15% asian in college classes or on police force? 

Yes the worst white man applying will not make it, but we are better served by helping the top black woman even if her scores are worse than his to get in and get through. (and I know it won't be as easy to get her through!) And I fear that without any scrutiny or rules the white men accepted will be worse than the minorities and women rejected.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Jenn said:


> In 1992-3 I met a (white, local) lawyer in NC who told us of interviewing secretaries and that they 'of course' couldn't hire one despite her qualifications because she was black. I was too flabbergasted to respond at the time.
> 
> In 1992 in NC a (black) woman told me of the upset over her daughter's fiance being white. Funny how she can confide in me her troubles but wouldn't want her son to marry me.
> 
> ...


I have seen with my own children that they are kinder and gentler than my generation. They attended a very diverse school and just seem to accept everybody who isn't mean. They don't have to like everyone...and they don't! But they do accept everyone and have a live and let live attitude. In fact they really seem to enjoy learning about other cultures and one daughter is really good with foreign languages. I think that the desire of most parents is that their children be better people than they themselves are.


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

Jenn said:


> Yes the worst white man applying will not make it, *but we are better served by helping the top black woman even if her scores are worse than his to get in and get through.* (and I know it won't be as easy to get her through!) And I fear that without any scrutiny or rules the white men accepted will be worse than the minorities and women rejected.


Why? Why are we better served by that? As a female with a math/science background I am constantly assumed to be less capable than a male because of the more recent trend of accepting females with lower scores to create "diversity". Using gender or race as a deciding factor over skill and competence only makes people assume that the individual received their position due to their gender or race.

Yes, people other than white males should be just as likely to be accepted if they have the same qualifications. No, they should not be more likely to be accepted if they are less competent or qualified.

Kayleigh


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

When it comes to police I want the most qualified for the position I don't care if they are green with purple polka dots.. 

Being color blind also means accepting that qualifications for jobs are not guided by race, gender or ethnicity.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

All jobs should be by qualification no mater who you are . Race should not be on an application . Anyone that would hire me as an airplane copilot would be an idiot no matter what race i am :hysterical: To make anything a success you need the best people you can find .A example is a black truck driver i helped fold his tarps the other day been with the same Co 18 years nice guy to talk to . If i had a large trucking Co and he came job hunting and i had some bad employees never mind their race i would boot one an put that man in that truck .He said his boss let him pick out the next new truck he would drive .

Right now i need someone to stack lumber i an't picky needs a way to get here almost on time can be from mars for all i care


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

******* said:


> Yes, people other than white males should be just as likely to be accepted if they have the same qualifications. No, they should not be more likely to be accepted if they are less competent or qualified.
> Kayleigh


As a white male, I could accept that if my scores, experience, and interview received the exact same score as a woman or a minority, they would get a preference. What I thought was unfair that someone less qualified was elevated over me just because of race or sex.

When I was up against veterans for a government position, they received 5 or 10 bonus points on the federal exam. I had no problem with that. If I got a 95 and they got a 90 plus 10 bonus points they should have been hired ahead of me. But that's not how it worked. Any veteran that simply passed the test (with or without the bonus points) automatically went to the top of the hiring list. 

What many people seem to ignore is that to discriminate in favor of a certain person, another person(s) must be discriminated against.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Jenn said:


> So fund more early education head start so black and poor kids can do as well in elementary school as middle class white kids.


The problem goes way deeper than some education program can solve. The root of the problem lies with the family structure among blacks. If there's no support @ home, if there's no structure @ home, if there's no involvement @ home, the chances of success drop to almost nil.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Some folks an't going to do no different no matter their color . Could round you up a bunch around here interview them give them a hundred grand in five years interview them again bet 99% of them are is the same fix or worse . 

Know a man has 20 rental houses said he gives everyone the same treatment money must be green an not trash his house , He worked three jobs and his wife worked to get these houses .


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

Jenn said:


> I still think diversity and affirmative action are needed, not reparations. Because even blacks who have never been slaves or descended from slaves suffer from current discrimination. So fund more early education head start so black and poor kids can do as well in elementary school as middle class white kids.


The greatest predictor of succes in life is to have two married parents. As long as the black community thinks it's acceptable that 70% of their babies have one unmarried parent then that community will suffer. Pumping more tax payer money into trying to solve that problem with head start, free meals and affirmative action is just throwing good money after bad. Until the black community gives up 'victimhood' as a way of life it will continue to struggle.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Wanderer0101 said:


> The greatest predictor of succes in life is to have two married parents. As long as the black community thinks it's acceptable that 70% of their babies have one unmarried parent then that community will suffer. Pumping more tax payer money into trying to solve that problem with head start, free meals and affirmative action is just throwing good money after bad. Until the black community gives up 'victimhood' as a way of life it will continue to struggle.


There is a whole flock of other 's that fit this bill too :bow:


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Wanderer0101 said:


> The greatest predictor of succes in life is to have two married parents. As long as the black community thinks it's acceptable that 70% of their babies have one unmarried parent then that community will suffer. Pumping more tax payer money into trying to solve that problem with head start, free meals and affirmative action is just throwing good money after bad. Until the black community gives up 'victimhood' as a way of life it will continue to struggle.


Wanderer, if the 2 married parents are the same sex, is that cool too?:teehee:


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Wanderer, if the 2 married parents are the same sex, is that cool too?

Let me take a poke at this . As long as it it their child they created together with a D NA sample as proof :hobbyhors


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

texican said:


> I better post fast before this entire thread gets the old lockdown of goes off to banned thread heaven.
> 
> I think Blacks, African Americans, Descendants of North American Slaves [went to the Facebook page referenced, and there's nothing there...13 followers, six listed, three white] should really do a little thinking, before they dig up the all the angry bones that are buried. It's been 145 years since slavery ended, and 40 since the Civil Rights Laws were passed. That's 7 generations of freedom, two of which have been under the Civil Rights era, with full welfare priveleges. It's been a long time since Blacks were Denied Anything, because of their pigmentation. I don't know about all the citified folks, but whites, blacks, mexicans, and even a good smattering of Asians (recently) live side by side without any problems.
> 
> ...


Post of the day award.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

mnn2501 said:


> Sorry, but Reparations is another word for handout.
> Can someone explain what good it would do, how it would help finally 'get people on their feet'? Its been 150 years since slavery has ended and 50 years since the civil rights movement, if Blacks are not "on their feet" by now, just how will another handout will get them there? Be specific please.


Still waiting for a reply


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

mnn2501 said:


> Still waiting for a reply


I'd be interested in a reply to this also.
In my opinion the more handouts people get the more they expect and the less likely they are to stand on their own.


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## Stephen in SOKY (Jun 6, 2006)

Please don't seriously consider the suggestion for more public education. It hasn't changed anything yet. And, we property owners simply have no more money to throw down the bottomless pit that public education has become.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Stephen in SOKY said:


> Please don't seriously consider the suggestion for more public education. It hasn't changed anything yet. And, we property owners simply have no more money to throw down the bottomless pit that public education has become.


No matter how experienced the teacher or incredible the curriculum, there is very little impact made on children who come from high-risk families.
I have my students 6 hours a day, 183 days a year. The rest of their time is spent living in a culture of poverty where entitlement is a way of living. Once a child enters school, his/her norms for behavior have been well established.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

mnn2501 said:


> Still waiting for a reply


We fed the troll her fill and she crawled back into her bucket.....


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

I thought troll's stayed under bridges O had built


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

TheMartianChick said:


> It is always nice when people can get together and share this type of information. Descendants of slaves often run into so many roadblocks when trying to trace family history. There are very few photographs and precious few letters because slaves weren't allowed to be educated. As a result, there isn't much of a paper trail except slave sale records and the US Census.


That, and the fact photography wasn't common at all. Amongst whites or blacks.

Through a strange course of events, I came into temporary possession of some family treasures a few years back. A shoebox full of tintypes. The earliest date I could see was in the 1880's. There was only one photograph for each individual... unfortunately a few of the ones I really wanted to view were worn down and un-scannable.

In my genealogical research, I've found quite a few of my 1850 to 1920 relatives that signed with an X, their mark. So, education was just as rare as photographs.

The census are the best tools for research.

If your relatives aren't on the census and didn't own land, you're SOL. I've come across a few dozen slave deeds in the local courthouses. After the War of Northern Aggression, free Blacks locally were given land in the numerous 'quarters'... they were deeded land (whether they got a mule or not isn't in most of the records, unless willed or deeded when land was sold or bought). All of the slaves were first name only. Quite a few, once empowered, took on their former masters last name.


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

Wanderer0101 said:


> The greatest predictor of succes in life is to have two married parents. As long as the black community thinks it's acceptable that 70% of their babies have one unmarried parent then that community will suffer. Pumping more tax payer money into trying to solve that problem with head start, free meals and affirmative action is just throwing good money after bad. Until the black community gives up 'victimhood' as a way of life it will continue to struggle.


I disagree....the greatest predictor of success is to have a positive male and female ROLE MODEL. 

since most males fall short nowadays (black & white and brown)..I would say "tough luck kids"


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

bowdonkey said:


> Wanderer, if the 2 married parents are the same sex, is that cool too?:teehee:


Why not? American women have been filling the role of american men for decades...


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

shanzone2001 said:


> No matter how experienced the teacher or incredible the curriculum, there is very little impact made on children who come from high-risk families.
> I have my students 6 hours a day, 183 days a year. The rest of their time is spent living in a culture of poverty where entitlement is a way of living. Once a child enters school, his/her norms for behavior have been well established.


Not true...a teacher who CARES makes for a wonderful learning environment. To most teachers..it just a job. If the teacher doesnt show an interest..the kids dont learn. 

doesnt matter what color the students are..or what background. An effective teacher finds a way to reach their students...that is supposed to be their job. anybody can stand up in front of the classroom and lecture about a lesson. 

Ask any kid what class they enjoyed and learned the most about...and ten to one its the class with a teacher that cared and showed an interest.


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

bowdonkey said:


> Wanderer, if the 2 married parents are the same sex, is that cool too?:teehee:


Insufficient data on married parents of the same sex, we're talking a rare situation demographically. But I suspect that the results would be superior to one unmarried parent but inferior to a married heterosexual couple, that's give a stable same sex marriage which from what I'm seeing seem to be scarce.

I realize you're trailing your coat here and I'm not taking a position on approval or disapproval, just assessing demographics.


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

lilmizlayla said:


> I disagree....the greatest predictor of success is to have a positive male and female ROLE MODEL.
> 
> since most males fall short nowadays (black & white and brown)..I would say "tough luck kids"


You can disagree all you want, every study shows the same thing. I suspect that it's pretty difficult to quantify "positive" role models which is completely subjective while it's quite easy to quantify married couples.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Wanderer0101 said:


> Insufficient data on married parents of the same sex, we're talking a rare situation demographically. But I suspect that the results would be superior to one unmarried parent but inferior to a married heterosexual couple, that's give a stable same sex marriage which from what I'm seeing seem to be scarce.
> 
> I realize you're trailing your coat here and I'm not taking a position on approval or disapproval, just assessing demographics.


Trailing my coat? What's that mean?:gaptooth:


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

lilmizlayla said:


> Why not? American women have been filling the role of american men for decades...


Perhaps where YOU are.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

lilmizlayla said:


> Why not? American women have been filling the role of american men for decades...


I'm not even sure what that means?


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

lilmizlayla said:


> Not true...a teacher who CARES makes for a wonderful learning environment. To most teachers..it just a job. If the teacher doesnt show an interest..the kids dont learn.
> 
> doesnt matter what color the students are..or what background. An effective teacher finds a way to reach their students...that is supposed to be their job. anybody can stand up in front of the classroom and lecture about a lesson.
> 
> Ask any kid what class they enjoyed and learned the most about...and ten to one its the class with a teacher that cared and showed an interest.


I have to wonder if you are a teacher, because your opinion is that of someone who has not been down in the trenches working with angry, hostile, uncooperative students like I have for the last 13 years!

Yes, teachers DO make a difference and I experience that every day. However, you live in "LaLa Land" if you think my influence is greater than the one they are raised in!

For the record, I have many parent requests each year because I am a caring, nurturing teacher. It is easy for you to tell me what my job is...have you EVER tried it?????

*Why do you always have to bring up color?* What does color have to do with how I treat my students? That is the difference between you and me- I see a child, not a race.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

lilmizlayla said:


> I disagree....the greatest predictor of success is to have a positive male and female ROLE MODEL.
> 
> since most males fall short nowadays (black & white and brown)..I would say "tough luck kids"


well if thats true then Id have to say the women fall very short as well after all they allowed themselves to get knocked up by loser men .

are there males that dont deserve to be referred to as Men you bet. lazy such and witches that dont give a flip about their kids their wives or anything else .
Yet if your honest there are just as many women who are the same way .
Women who will ignore that their new "Man" is molesting their kids. 
You dont have to have a penis to be a bad parent , any more than having a vagina makes you a good parent .
Dont worry we get that your an office holder in the shemale man haters club


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

vickiesmom 
as long as you and so many others continue to make skin color an issue racism will be alive and well . 
Your attitude is just as racist as a klan members , the difference is yours is more readily accepted . 
Im a hienz 57 moms side of the family has been here since the founding of james town and even further when you figure the natives that were added in .
Then you have the french trappers that came in through NO and the germans and quakers . when the civil war came along we had family on both sides one or two may have owned slaves , of course some were slaves when they came to this country in the 1600s.
your good at claiming how terrible slavery was yet slaves had a much better chance of surviving than endentured servants, a slave was an inestment a servant was a liability check some of the laws in the 1600s seems there was a rash of starving servants to death to avoid providing them the land and freedom they were promised . 
Of course if your such a historian you'd know that the first 300 blacks came to this country as ES's and when their seven years were up , they were given the 160 acres and freedom. in the hay day of slavery some 3000+ free blacks owned more than 17,000 slaves many of which they contracted to plantations , others traded slaves like some trade horses even selling their own children. 
But that doesnt have a thing to do with skin color does it . No it doesnt.
because even today evil people will sell their children.
Get off the poor repressed oppresed children of former slaves BS.
Get off the purposely setting yourself apart BS the only reason people do that is to either claim superiority or martyrdom . 
When people start being American instead of African/american,mexican american, european/american then racist might really be a thing of the past .
Until then there will be racism. 
I was raised with a number of foster brothers all different sizes shapes and colors . They are simply my brothers . My daughters uncle Henry can trace his family tree back to the Zulu tribe, But see that doesnt matter all my girls know is that its uncle Henry and they love him and hes a good man .
guess what they will tell you slaveries bad too but they wont place a skin color qualifier on it , they are being taught that many came to this country as slaves and won their freedom in many different ways, others were already here and were made slaves , and guess what that those who brought us the word of God were slaves as well. 
They are also being taught that in this great nation they can be anything they are willing to work to become. No one owes them anything they will have to earn it they cant expect to have anything given to them because somewhere a hundred years ago some ancestor was mistreated .
I have great respect for those who worked or fought their way out of slavery, I respect the sacrifices that were forced on them. They earned every bit of respect . 
You their decendents did not and have no right to claim martyrdom or claim a hand out on their part. They wouldnt have degraded themselves , see they earned their freedom, they suffered bled and died for it, through all that they kept their self respect, they knew their self worth and had earned their honor, not because any one gave it to them.
Why would you dishonor them by selling their sacrifices and honor.
Even attempting to do so is doing their memories a great dis-service


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## legacy (Oct 16, 2005)

ChristyACB said it and so have others on this thread: Most, if not all of us are desended from slaves. 

_In addition to slaves (who were mostly from Africa), Europeans, including Irish,[3] Scottish,[4] English, and Germans,[5] immigrated to North America in substantial numbers as indentured servants,[6] particularly to the British Thirteen Colonies.[7] In the seventeenth century, however, nearly two-thirds of English settlers came as indentured servants. For most of the seventeenth century, however, indentured servitude was not a guaranteed route to economic autonomy. Given the high death rate, many servants did not live to the end of their terms.[8] In the 18th and early 19th century numerous Europeans traveled to the colonies as redemptioners, a form of indenture.[9]

It has been estimated that the redemptioners comprised almost 80% of the total British and continental emigration to America prior to the Revolution._

It's true that "Usually the status of indentured servant was entered into voluntarily by the servant." But nevertheless, these "servants," also called "debt slaves," died before their contracts expired. They were committed to a lifetime of servitude.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant

_The organization Anti-Slavery International defines slavery as "forced labour." By this definition there are approximately 27 million slaves in the world today, more than at any point in history and more than twice as many as all African slaves who survived being taken to the Americas in the Atlantic slave trade._ (Wikipedia)

_Up to one-half of all the arrivals in the American colonies were Whites slaves and they were America's first slaves. These Whites were slaves for life, long before Blacks ever were. This slavery was even hereditary. White children born to White slaves were enslaved too.

Whites were auctioned on the block with children sold and separated from their parents and wives sold and separated from their husbands. Free Black property owners strutted the streets of northern and southern American cities while White slaves were worked to death in the sugar mills of Barbados and Jamaica and the plantations of Virginia.

The Establishment has created the misnomer of "indentured servitude" to explain away and minimize the fact of White slavery. But bound Whites in early America called themselves slaves. Nine-tenths of the White slavery in America was conducted without indentures of any kind but according to the so-called "custom of the country," as it was known, which was lifetime slavery administered by the White slave merchants themselves._ (Michael A. Hoffman II's, "They Were White and They Were Slaves,")

Islam was very heavy (as has been pointed out) into the slave trade.
http://africanhistory.about.com/od/slavery/a/IslamRoleSlavery01.htm

I provide the above information only to point out that slavery, in various forms, does persist and has for countless generations. Even a little research reveals how practically all of us have desended from slaves.

From the research I've done into my ancestry, I can't find any information that indicates that any member of my family was a slave owner, but even if they were, I wouldn't care. I had nothing to do with it.

The idea that I -- any American taxpayer, for that matter --should somehow be responsible for a black person's -- any person's -- slavery in this country generations ago is absurd. As far as I'm concerned, anyone of any race who would suggest such a thing is a) looking to get elected, b) looking for a handout, or c) a naive, uneducated fool.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmizlayla 
Why not? American women have been filling the role of american men for decades... 



Cornhusker said:


> I'm not even sure what that means?


It means that she's not able to recognize a decent human being. Not able to PLAN or figure out what guy has character vs one who blows smoke.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

pyrodon said:


> well if thats true then id have to say the women fall very short as well after all they allowed themselves to get knocked up by loser men .
> 
> Are there males that dont deserve to be referred to as men you bet. Lazy such and witches that dont give a flip about their kids their wives or anything else .
> Yet if your honest there are just as many women who are the same way .
> ...


potda


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

PyroDon said:


> vickiesmom
> as long as you and so many others continue to make skin color an issue racism will be alive and well .
> Your attitude is just as racist as a klan members , the difference is yours is more readily accepted .
> Im a hienz 57 moms side of the family has been here since the founding of james town and even further when you figure the natives that were added in .
> ...


Post of the year award.
(maybe the century)


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

Tricky Grama said:


> Post of the year award.
> (maybe the century)


:goodjob:


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## Gercarson (Nov 2, 2003)

Tricky Grama said:


> Post of the year award.
> (maybe the century)


Maybe ... ? It'll take some doing to top this.


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

PyroDon said:


> well if thats true then Id have to say the women fall very short as well after all they allowed themselves to get knocked up by loser men .
> 
> are there males that dont deserve to be referred to as Men you bet. lazy such and witches that dont give a flip about their kids their wives or anything else .
> Yet if your honest there are just as many women who are the same way .
> ...


Its a well known fact that women who fall for LOSERS typically come from a home with an absent/neglectful father. 

*make sure my office has a picture window so I can get a good view of the annual 10K man stomp*


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

Cornhusker said:


> I'm not even sure what that means?


means single mothers have been filling the role of both mother/father.


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> Perhaps where YOU are.


So where you live there arent any single parent households where the mother is the ONLY parent? 

Hmm..that is interesting..


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

PyroDon said:


> vickiesmom
> as long as you and so many others continue to make skin color an issue racism will be alive and well .
> Your attitude is just as racist as a klan members , the difference is yours is more readily accepted .
> Im a hienz 57 moms side of the family has been here since the founding of james town and even further when you figure the natives that were added in .
> ...


I think I agree with most of what you said. :thumb:


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## Immaculate Sublimity (Apr 30, 2003)

And she's the only parent because she made such grand choices in sperm donors, eh? Sure some people make good choices and things go sour... but the reality of it is MOST single moms are in that position because THEY chose to bed someone they A) Didnt know for more than a few months at best... or B) they did know them for a while and were too blind to see that they were screwin losers.... or C) they think life is a carnival midway and they consistantly wander around trying to trade in and trade up. 

Face it every little girl wants that fairytale life...Its when you grow up and realise that not every guy is prince charming that it sucks.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

lilmizlayla said:


> So where you live there arent any single parent households where the mother is the ONLY parent?
> 
> Hmm..that is interesting..


My brother raised 4 daughters by himself because "mom" had better things to do.
She popped in and out when she needed money or sympathy, rarely worked and never put her kids first, never contributed a dime to their upbringing.
My brother put his life on hold, didn't go out, didn't date, he worked, cooked, cleaned and built a home for his girls.
One more year, and at the age of 52 he'll be able to start on his life.
Your man hating BS doesn't hold water.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

Immaculate Sublimity said:


> And she's the only parent because she made such grand choices in sperm donors, eh? Sure some people make good choices and things go sour... but the reality of it is MOST single moms are in that position because THEY chose to bed someone they A) Didnt know for more than a few months at best... or B) they did know them for a while and were too blind to see that they were screwin losers.... or C) they think life is a carnival midway and they consistantly wander around trying to trade in and trade up.
> 
> Face it every little girl wants that fairytale life...Its when you grow up and realise that not every guy is prince charming that it sucks.


I think for all the women out there that finally divorced for whatever reason after enduring a bad marriage, this is pretty harsh.

My mom raised 4 of us (though admittedly not me after age 12) when she finally divorced my father. He apparently followed a "traditional" path of do as I say and not as I do. Meaning he catted around like he was the last tomcat on earth. Yet he was from an old and distinguished family, college, smart, prominent in the area and the church..all that jazz. He was the perfect catch. Not so much.

So many men go astray in so many ways. Until recently a woman just had to put up with it. I don't see how making yourself into a non-person to endure abuse, infidelity or simply terminal disinterest is any better than just going it alone and divorcing them.

Granted, my mom never remarried because she felt no new husband could ever truly love the children of a previous one they way that they should be loved and therefore, never dated. But that was a hard choice for her and one that left her alone now in her old age, without a husband to share it with. I don't think most people will purposefully put themselves in that position. 

It is competely unfair to lump every divorced woman in with women who make poor choices in who they go home with on a Friday night after barhopping. Two different things in every respect.

And for all those who say...well, then she didn't know him. Baloney. People change, decide they don't have to follow the same rules as others or simply have a double standard all over this country. She did not understand the southern tradition of getting a wife and then getting a life that many upper class men follow, but fidelity was her expectation and part of their vows.


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

lilmizlayla said:


> Its a well known fact that women who fall for LOSERS typically come from a home with an absent/neglectful father.



Doesn't that very statement imply that not all women can fill the role of both a mother and father on their own? Maybe some can and do a good job of it. The fact that you can make this generalization implies that most cannot.

I'm not making a judgment on what happened to create that single mother. I'm just stating that if being raised without a father makes a woman more likely to have to raise her own children without a father then maybe most mothers can't fill that role.

Kayleigh


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

Cornhusker said:


> My brother raised 4 daughters by himself because "mom" had better things to do.
> She popped in and out when she needed money or sympathy, rarely worked and never put her kids first, never contributed a dime to their upbringing.
> My brother put his life on hold, didn't go out, didn't date, he worked, cooked, cleaned and built a home for his girls.
> One more year, and at the age of 52 he'll be able to start on his life.
> Your man hating BS doesn't hold water.


Then I am sure he understands that sometimes that is what happens. He didnt set out to breed with a loser...didnt float around sleeping with everybody. I am sure when he got with her..he never imagined he would be doing it alone. and it is very hard to raise children AND work 40+ hours and still maintain a home. 


Millions of women are doing the same thing as your brother.....


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

******* said:


> Doesn't that very statement imply that not all women can fill the role of both a mother and father on their own? Maybe some can and do a good job of it. The fact that you can make this generalization implies that most cannot.
> 
> I'm not making a judgment on what happened to create that single mother. I'm just stating that if being raised without a father makes a woman more likely to have to raise her own children without a father then maybe most mothers can't fill that role.
> 
> Kayleigh


Mothers most times do not have a choice in the matter. 
They have to play both roles. 
In a perfect world..in an ideal world..Both parents would take equal responsibility. 
Children want/need a positive male role model. 

there was a study of elephants years ago...Their social structure is very like humans. Both parents raise the young. They took out the males and allowed the females to raise the juvenile males. It was a disaster. The juvenile males became aggressive and ran amuck...they had to shoot these male juveniles because they posed such a danger.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

lilmizlayla said:


> there was a study of elephants years ago...Their social structure is very like humans. Both parents raise the young. They took out the males and allowed the females to raise the juvenile males. It was a disaster. The juvenile males became aggressive and ran amuck...they had to shoot these male juveniles because they posed such a danger.


That's odd because I've seen documentaries done by National Geographic showing that the females ARE the ones who raise the young. Aunts play a big role in the care of babies as do other mothers, when necessary.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

lilmizlayla said:


> Mothers most times do not have a choice in the matter.
> They have to play both roles.
> In a perfect world..in an ideal world..Both parents would take equal responsibility.
> Children want/need a positive male role model.
> ...


That's one option to consider........


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

lilmizlayla said:


> I disagree....the greatest predictor of success is to have a positive male and female ROLE MODEL.
> 
> since most males fall short nowadays (black & white and brown)..I would say "tough luck kids"


Totally wrong, if parents don't care about their kids education its all over.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

IMHO raising kids is the most important job there is and from what I see a lot of them are not being parented, by that I mean there are to many supposed parents out there that feel there little angels are perfect and than there are those that just don't want the responsibility of the work involved. I don't think any one gender is any more to blame than the other. There is a commitment made when a person becomes a parent, part of that is teaching right from wrong and making sure that there are consequences for actions both positive and negative.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

lilmizlayla said:


> So where you live there arent any single parent households where the mother is the ONLY parent?
> 
> Hmm..that is interesting..


As usual, ignorance of the posts abounds.
I was answering your slam on men.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

******* said:


> Doesn't that very statement imply that not all women can fill the role of both a mother and father on their own? Maybe some can and do a good job of it. The fact that you can make this generalization implies that most cannot.
> 
> I'm not making a judgment on what happened to create that single mother. I'm just stating that if being raised without a father makes a woman more likely to have to raise her own children without a father then maybe most mothers can't fill that role.
> 
> Kayleigh


Bingo!
Another POTDA.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

lilmizlayla said:


> Its a well known fact that women who fall for LOSERS typically come from a home with an absent/neglectful father.
> 
> *make sure my office has a picture window so I can get a good view of the annual 10K man stomp*


lol, of course somehow it's a man's fault, do women never make any of their own decisions so they can never make a wrong decision. We have vickiesmom being racist and you being sexist. What a mix....lol


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

lilmizlayla said:


> Its a well known fact that women who fall for LOSERS typically come from a home with an absent/neglectful father.
> 
> *make sure my office has a picture window so I can get a good view of the annual 10K man stomp*


then your saying women arent smart enough to learn from their mothers mistake and I dont buy that .
My father was an abusive loser, instead of taking after him I swore that Id never be like him in those respects .
You choose your own path , excuses are just excuses .


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

lilmizlayla said:


> Mothers most times do not have a choice in the matter.
> They have to play both roles.
> In a perfect world..in an ideal world..Both parents would take equal responsibility.
> Children want/need a positive male role model.
> ...


Heres a thought .
why not avoid having kids until you have found a Man , instead of getting knocked up by a loser. See if women would wait until they have a stable tried and true realationship there wouldnt be so many having to raise kids on their own . Choosing a baby daddy because he looks good in jeans isnt the smartest move. of course guy have this problem as well your not real likely to find a good stable mate picking up the drunk bimbo at the bar .
Your wanting to lay the blame on the men . well thats not always the case . I know a few guys that would love to have their kids but their Xs who has been through a dozen BFs in the last couple years wont even let them see the kids . 
see the fact is it takes two to make a marriage, it takes two to make a baby.
your gonna blame the guy even when its not always the guys fault


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## Guest (May 26, 2010)

This thread has me really upset & I'm crying foul . My parents deceived me by teaching me that to succeed I needed to be an honest , hard working person . I've always believed that was the way to get the things I needed & wanted . I was never made aware that if I traced my ancestors & found a worthless one or a mistreated one somewhere along the line that I'd automatically have the right to whine & complain & be worthless myself & expect handouts . All these years I've looked after myself & didn't even know that someone , somewhere owed me . It just ain't fair !!! Waaaaa


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Immaculate Sublimity said:


> And she's the only parent because she made such grand choices in sperm donors, eh? Sure some people make good choices and things go sour... but the reality of it is MOST single moms are in that position because THEY chose to bed someone they A) Didnt know for more than a few months at best... or B) they did know them for a while and were too blind to see that they were screwin losers.... or C) they think life is a carnival midway and they consistantly wander around trying to trade in and trade up.


 This is the post of the year


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

PyroDon said:


> then your saying women arent smart enough to learn from their mothers mistake and I dont buy that .
> My father was an abusive loser, instead of taking after him I swore that Id never be like him in those respects .
> You choose your own path , excuses are just excuses .


Probably because you identified with your mother..and saw how much pain he put her through,


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

PyroDon said:


> Heres a thought .
> 
> Your wanting to lay the blame on the men . well thats not always the case . I know a few guys that would love to have their kids but their Xs who has been through a dozen BFs in the last couple years wont even let them see the kids .
> see the fact is it takes two to make a marriage, it takes two to make a baby.
> your gonna blame the guy even when its not always the guys fault


So these women are defying a court order? 

I doubt that..if a parent WANTS to be involved..they can be. 

WTH does her personal life have to do with the children? i dont care if she has a new one every week...that has NOTHING to do with the kids.


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

mnn2501 said:


> Totally wrong, if parents don't care about their kids education its all over.


wrong. When a teacher doesnt care..its all over


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

PyroDon, layoff the drunk bimbo's. They play a vital part in the night life around here. Unsung hero's these "ladies of the night". :gaptooth:


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

lilmizlayla said:


> So these women are defying a court order?
> 
> I doubt that..if a parent WANTS to be involved..they can be.
> 
> WTH does her personal life have to do with the children? i dont care if she has a new one every week...that has NOTHING to do with the kids.


Your last paragraph shows complete misunderstanding of life. And role-modeling. And morals.


Lilmiz said-"wrong. When a teacher doesnt care..its all over"

As well as this statement...betcha many of us have had at least one teacher who didn't give a hoot. But having good parents made a dif.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

PyroDon said:


> Heres a thought .
> why not avoid having kids until you have found a Man , instead of getting knocked up by a loser. See if women would wait until they have a stable tried and true realationship there wouldnt be so many having to raise kids on their own . Choosing a baby daddy because he looks good in jeans isnt the smartest move. of course guy have this problem as well your not real likely to find a good stable mate picking up the drunk bimbo at the bar .
> Your wanting to lay the blame on the men . well thats not always the case . I know a few guys that would love to have their kids but their Xs who has been through a dozen BFs in the last couple years wont even let them see the kids .
> see the fact is it takes two to make a marriage, it takes two to make a baby.
> your gonna blame the guy even when its not always the guys fault


:goodjob:


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## mountainlaurel (Mar 5, 2010)

lilmizlayla said:


> Why not? American women have been filling the role of american men for decades...


And look how low this country has sunk in the last few decades. Women aren't men, they don't have what men have just the same as men aren't women and they can't offer what women have.

I was mostly raised by my mother, my father being an alcoholic. She did her best but my children have both their father and mother and I can see how much more he does for them that I can't give them. Sorry, but the ideal is both mother and father and if woman's lib hadn't lied and said you can have sex without any consequences, we wouldn't be were we are today.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

lilmizlayla said:


> So these women are defying a court order?
> 
> I doubt that..if a parent WANTS to be involved..they can be.
> 
> WTH does her personal life have to do with the children? i dont care if she has a new one every week...that has NOTHING to do with the kids.


yes women often violate court orders like it or not .they refuse to allow visitation, they keep moving around to avoid the court orders 
and her personal life indeed effects the children , women bringing home a new BF every week shows they are far from stable or capable of choosing wisely.
Ive known a number of women who also tend to put the new BF ahead of their children . How many of those nightly bfs are a danger to the kids . 

Unlike yourself Im not claiming all women are bad or that all men are good .
they are simply people and people have faults 

No I cant speak for all men only for myself .
I can tell you exactly how many nightnight hugs Ive given each of my kids because I know Ive only missed 6 nights since either was born , can you do the same ?


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

mountainlaurel said:


> And look how low this country has sunk in the last few decades. Women aren't men, they don't have what men have just the same as men aren't women and they can't offer what women have.
> 
> I was mostly raised by my mother, my father being an alcoholic. She did her best but my children have both their father and mother and I can see how much more he does for them that I can't give them. Sorry, but the ideal is both mother and father and if woman's lib hadn't lied and said you can have sex without any consequences, we wouldn't be were we are today.


Womens lib didnt say to have sex without consequences..
women have been having sex without the benefit of marriage since the beginning of time.
womens rights gave your mother the right to get a job and support you and get paid the same as any man doing the same job.
womens rights gave her the right to own her own property whereas before..she would have had to give it all to your father.
womens rights made it so a job cannot discriminate on the basis of sex
womens rights gave us the choice as to whether we want to carry a pregnancy.
womens rights gave us a vote in this nation
Womens rights made us free from domestic abuse
womens rights gave us a choice and a voice

Perhaps you want your daughters life to only entail housekeeping and babysitting..but my beautiful daughters have much more to offer this world. I want them to have a family..but I also want them to go to college..be able to support themselves....and to experience the world. Something that was closed to them before womens rights. 
I do NOT want my daughters to depend solely on some guy.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

lilmizlayla said:


> Perhaps you want your daughters life to only entail housekeeping and babysitting..but my beautiful daughters have much more to offer this world.* I want them to have a family*..but I also want them to go to college..be able to support themselves....and to experience the world. Something that was closed to them before womens rights.
> I do NOT want my daughters to depend solely on some guy.


but how are they going to have a family without some dirty nasty guy:shocked::shocked: Well I guess you could go with test tube babies :teehee:


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

Txsteader said:


> That's odd because I've seen documentaries done by National Geographic showing that the females ARE the ones who raise the young. Aunts play a big role in the care of babies as do other mothers, when necessary.


This was on the discovery channel. Fathers do play a role with the males...This was about rhinos that were discovered dead..and they figured out it was juvenile male elephants that were moved to lessen the herd. Taking the Fathers out of the picture made them aggressive

http://www.pocatelloshops.com/new_blogs/community/?p=4195


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

blooba said:


> but how are they going to have a family without some dirty nasty guy:shocked::shocked: Well I guess you could go with test tube babies :teehee:


Umm...so basically you're saying women have a choice. She can either be chattel and NOT have those rights listed...like the right to own property, vote, earn her living and file charges if she is abused OR she can choose to have those rights and NO marriage and children?

So...if she has the right to not let a man beat her silly or boing the cows or thinks it funny to burn kids with cigarettes then she is somehow immediately and forever unable to have a relationship with any man?

Hmm...tough choice.


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## DebbieJ (Oct 9, 2016)

PyroDon said:


> then your saying women arent smart enough to learn from their mothers mistake and I dont buy that .
> My father was an abusive loser, instead of taking after him I swore that Id never be like him in those respects .
> You choose your own path , excuses are just excuses .


Amen PyroDon. I was abused sexually as a child. BUT I AM NOT an abuser of any kind. I’ve lived a life of Hell, but I survived. We are what we want to become.


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## DebbieJ (Oct 9, 2016)

lilmizlayla said:


> So these women are defying a court order?
> 
> I doubt that..if a parent WANTS to be involved..they can be.
> 
> WTH does her personal life have to do with the children? i dont care if she has a new one every week...that has NOTHING to do with the kids.


Men defy court orders by not paying child support all the time. I know because I raised my three children without their biological other parent‘s help. And on a minimal wage job. Was it easy, no it wasn’t. I did have help from my family though. Now with money, but with food and clothing for my children. I never stopped him from seeing them, but then if they didn’t ant to go, I did t make them either. Wish I had kept them home though. It turns out he molested all three of them. Even my son. How sick is that?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

where I want to said:


> as I have done unto them. Nothing like having wronged people to make you distrust them.


More feel good propaganda. I haven't done anything to anyone, and I haven't wronged anyone. If I distrust someone, it is because of what they do or have done recently. Not for things done fifty or one hundred years ago.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

lilmizlayla said:


> liberia was established by free black former slaves. very interesting history, BTW. I work with a man from there..his great grandparents were former american slaves.
> 
> no, he doesnt think twice about coming back to the land where his family was enslaved...He LOVES america. I found it rather odd..but apparently some are very forgiving..lololol
> 
> as far as reparations...there isnt enough money to undue the harm that has been done for hundreds of years. how do you put a price on the pain of having your family sold? your children advertised for 20 bucks in the paper? Of being buried in mass graves..unmarked so that even TODAY we are still finding mass graves of slaves buried when digging for wells...fixing roads?


I worked in Liberia in the 80's, and knew many people who were descended from slaves. Liberia wasn't established by former slaves, it was already a country. When the former slaves landed in Liberia, they were provided with muskets, powder and lead, by the US Government. The first thing they did was to round up and enslave every local native they could find. They built plantation style homes and began to grow tobacco, and sugar cane. They knew a good thing when they saw it.


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## stars at night (Mar 12, 2021)

seedspreader said:


> My white German ancestors came here after the civil war.
> 
> Do we get to pay reparations too?


You get to pay me and my fellow Jews who were rounded up, enslaved and systematically murdered during Hitler's reign.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

stars at night said:


> You get to pay me and my fellow Jews who were rounded up, enslaved and systematically murdered during Hitler's reign.


His family wasn’t in Germany when that happened.


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## stars at night (Mar 12, 2021)

Lisa in WA said:


> His family wasn’t in Germany when that happened.


after the Civil War would be before Hitler...


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

stars at night said:


> after the Civil War would be before Hitler...


Yes, but his family came right after the Civil war. Not part of the Nazi rise.


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## stars at night (Mar 12, 2021)

stars at night said:


> after the Civil War would be before Hitler...


sorry, I screwed up. He gets to pay me anyway cause he's German. Someone body has to pay me---I have slaves on a planation in SC, Jewish European heritage, and I am mostly Caucausian. When's it gonna be my turn??


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

stars at night said:


> sorry, I screwed up. He gets to pay me anyway cause he's German. Someone body has to pay me---I have slaves on a planation in SC, Jewish European heritage, and I am mostly Caucausian. When's it gonna be my turn??


Lol…I get it it. I know him though so I had to defend him. He’s an old friend.
I’m pretty mad because the English stole land from my Irish family. And they oppressed my Welsh forebears too..
But I’m English too, so now I have to figure out how we victimized ourselves.
it was those damned Vikings. 
Oh no, they are part of my ancestry too!


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## stars at night (Mar 12, 2021)

Lisa in WA said:


> Lol…I get it it. I know him though so I had to defend him. He’s an old friend.
> I’m pretty mad because the English stole land from my Irish family. And they oppressed my Welsh forebears too..
> But I’m English too, so now I have to figure out how we victimized ourselves.
> it was those damned Vikings.
> Oh no, they are part of my ancestry too!


Or the Templars...my g(many) gf was Robert the Bruce and it turns out he was a bad guy when it came to the money end of things...I am also Irish and English.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Lisa in WA said:


> Lol…I get it it. I know him though so I had to defend him. He’s an old friend.
> I’m pretty mad because the English stole land from my Irish family. And they oppressed my Welsh forebears too..
> But I’m English too, so now I have to figure out how we victimized ourselves.
> it was those damned Vikings.
> Oh no, they are part of my ancestry too!


So I had family in the Alamo taking land from family outside the Alamo. Do I just pay myself?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> So I had family in the Alamo taking land from family outside the Alamo. Do I just pay myself?


I think you’re gonna have to, if you want to be a properly woke person. A hair shirt and scourge would be good too. Nothing short of sackcloth and ashes and the whole medieval monk routine will beat that offensive whiteness out of you.
Sounds like a good business opportunity for someone to cater to all of the self loathing white people.
Buy two cilices and get a free hair shirt!
Scourges sold separately.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Lot of pain and anger in the 2010 part of this thread. Seeing as how the 2021 part seems(so far)much lighter, I thought I'd relay this true story.
My maternal grandfather killed a man about a dog in the 1920's. As he told the judge, "Well, Cousin Malachai, The dog breeded with one of my bluetick hounds, but he was just being a dog. However, I'd already told the man to keep his mongrels up for a couple weeks, so he more or less did it on purpose" And the judge asked "Well then, cousin Pink, what did you do to the dog?" Grandpa said "Nothing. He was just being a dog." The judge thought about it a bit and said, "Justifiable homicide...case dismissed"
So, the dog that owns me, the much loved chupacabra found out about that and demanded reparations. I tried to explain that wasn't how it worked, but it's hard to communicate with her since her talking sounds like Marge Simpson and mine sounds like a bucketful of jarflies. Anyway, through a complete failure to communicate, I got her a dog as a settlement.
A couple years goes by, she tells her dog the story about my grandpa, and teaches him how to talk like Marge Simpson, now he's demanding reparations!! Apparently for being the dog of another dog, but maybe for the Marge Simpson thing, it's even harder to understand him.


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