# There may be a miracle in the making!



## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

I just got a call from a fellow two hundred miles away who believes the pit bull I found is his dog! He said two years ago she was just a four month old puppy and the neighbor let her escape from their back yard while his wife was in the hospital having a baby. 

He told me his wife started crying when she saw the picture (I could hear her in the background). They feel certain this is their missing dog.

I have goosebumps! I'm sending him more photos tonight and hopefully, this dog will finally be going home!

Keep your fingers crossed!!!


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Wow! Wouldn't that be cool? Both for you and for them!


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## nightfire (Feb 3, 2012)

That would be wonderful if it is their dog! I hope for you both it is, and I hope their naughty neighbors have since moved!


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Even if it isn't their dog, I'm sure they will want to take her home.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

How great! Where did they see the pictures?


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## wanda1950 (Jan 18, 2009)

Hope this works out!!


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

I've posted a picture on a couple animal rescue sites, one of them being one here in Mississippi and one was a nationwide site. I've also posted it on Craigslist and a few Facebook pages. Not sure where his wife found the photo.

Wolf Flower, I told him if it wasn't their dog they were welcome to take her if they like her. I get the feeling they will.

LOL...the day after I posted a photo on the nationwide pit bull rescue site I got a call from a guy in Tulsa, OK wanting to know how to get his pit bull female puppy to eat! I hope I gave him good advice (his male puppy was hogging the food, I told him to feed them separately).

This is a photo of her today. It's amazing what a week of regular feeding will do!


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Okay, now I see the pit completely.

I so hope this is that guy's doggie!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ravenlost said:


> I've posted a picture on a couple animal rescue sites, one of them being one here in Mississippi and one was a nationwide site. I've also posted it on Craigslist and a few Facebook pages. Not sure where his wife found the photo.
> 
> Wolf Flower, I told him if it wasn't their dog they were welcome to take her if they like her. I get the feeling they will.
> 
> ...


Nice looking pit bull. That is what a pit bull should look like.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Hmmm...what to do! Got an email in response to the Craigslist ad I posted last week. Local guy says it's his dog, she was stolen and answers to Memphis. Well, she doesn't even respond to Memphis at all so we have our doubts. Hubby is calling the guy tomorrow and grilling him about her.


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## SageLady (Jun 10, 2008)

Be careful - there are many out there that want a free pitbull to use in dogfights. Both of these people that contacted you may be lying about it being their dog....

And bless you for taking her in - she sure is looking good.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Sorry to say I don't have a lot of faith in either reply you got. Could be Memphis only responds to the owner's voice but that's tough to test without meeting the person. A good thing to arrange with the local shelter so you have neutral ground and back up.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

ask for proof - photographs, purchase papers, vet records.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

and she looks amazing for a one week recovery!


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Certainly dehydration and missing a few meals can make a dog look worse than it is.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Sadly many people lie about a dog being theirs when it isn't. When I was involved with our shelter a lady lost her yorkie. Someone found it and put it on craigslist. She called the shelter to ask what to do because more then ten people responded and said the dog was theirs. Luckily the lady who lost the yorkie had been calling and coming to the shelter a few times a day looking for it so it went back to its right owner.

I learned a lesson from the Yorkie incident to not post a picture anymore. This spring when I found the bulldog puppy I put of a very non descriptive ad " Found female bulldog, call to describe." Because of the price tag on a bulldog, I know a lot of people would like to own one for free and would claim its theirs. No one responded to the ads so I found it a home. 

I would ask for pictures or something to prove this dog is theirs. Or just be upfront and honest and tell them you have two people with similar stories claiming the dog is theirs so how can they prove it and feel them out.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Be very, very careful. There are a lot of folks out there who want pit bulls for the wrong reasons. She's an intact female....good potential breeder. Tell the "owners" that you had her spayed and see what their reaction is.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

The dog is not 2 and a half years old so while their story may be true the dog is not the one they think it is. They may make a good owner anyways.
Since the other guy is local let him see the dog and watch her reaction. If she is his you will be able to tell.
Ask to look at the registeration papers. She looks to be a registered dog and the owners should have the papers. Be sure she matches the color and approximate age on the papers. She looks like she is just over a year old.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

That's what we think too pancho. She's just not old enough to be the missing dog. But I have a gut feeling they would be good candidates for her.

I can assure you all that we are going to be extremely careful about placing this dog. Dog fighting is a big problem in Memphis, which is only 30 miles away. I'm positive it goes on around here too. If the local guy is really the owner he should have a record at our vet. There's no way we will give this sweet dog to anyone that will misuse/abuse her.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ravenlost said:


> That's what we think too pancho. She's just not old enough to be the missing dog. But I have a gut feeling they would be good candidates for her.
> 
> I can assure you all that we are going to be extremely careful about placing this dog. Dog fighting is a big problem in Memphis, which is only 30 miles away. I'm positive it goes on around here too. If the local guy is really the owner he should have a record at our vet. There's no way we will give this sweet dog to anyone that will misuse/abuse her.


I live in Ms. also. Just south of Jackson.
There are quite a few of the back yard dog fighters around.
Most of them don't know what a pit really looks like. She would be too small and skinny for most of them. There are quite a few that think a red nose is a different breed of pit bull, just like the blue dogs. You will probably have a few that would get her for breeding purposes only. When that failed she would be right back in the same shape.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Well, the local person who emailed last night sent hubby photos of the dog when she was a puppy. Hubby then called the guy and thinks that he would give her a good home. The timing is right and location makes more sense. Guy lives about seven, eight miles from us. Said they'd just moved outside of city limits and someone took all three of his dogs. Said she was about six months old at the time, which makes this dog the right age...one and a half. It also makes sense that she wouldn't remember the name Memphis too.

Hubby is getting a good vibe from this guy, but told the fellow he would have to come over to check out where (and how) they plan to keep her and meet face to face. I'm very tempted to have her spayed before we let her go!

P.S. The guy who called (the one 200 miles away) has not called or emailed since I emailed him more photos.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

she looks chocolate brindle to me.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Red, red nose. If I could see her pedigree I probably know quite a few of the dogs on it.
Might even have owned some. The color changes a little according to the time of the year and the sun. She is a fine example of old family red nose breeding.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Yep, she's red as she can be. If we didn't have dogs we'd keep her. She's terrific. This is the best photo I've been able to get of her:


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## nancy237 (May 29, 2008)

SageLady said:


> Be careful - there are many out there that want a free pitbull to use in dogfights. Both of these people that contacted you may be lying about it being their dog....
> 
> And bless you for taking her in - she sure is looking good.


Exactly what I was thinking...
They both sound fishy, but I have become more of a sceptic than I used to be.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

I love old family reds, we have a friend who has and old one, built like a barrel and oh so fun to wrestle with. Very nice temrement for a dog. I hope you find her a good home, but I am skeptical too. so much dog fighting in this area also.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Ravenlost said:


> Hubby is getting a good vibe from this guy, but told the fellow he would have to come over to check out where (and how) they plan to keep her and meet face to face. I'm very tempted to have her spayed before we let her go!


I wonder if this guy would agree to have her spayed?


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

gapeach said:


> I wonder if this guy would agree to have her spayed?


what can he do about it? He can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt it was his dog....she is not microchipped or tattooed. She is simply a rescue dog who needs a home. If he gets mad about her spay, it tells me he intended to breed her, which means he wants her back only for breeding. Spaying her is a great idea.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

prob is, IF the pic he sent can show it IS his dog. and it was shown to be his BEFORE the date that give the ownership to raven, if they spay her he maybe about to sue.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

You can't show a spayed dog. The dog may have been bought especially for the bloodline. I would never agree to spay a dog. I would never ask a person to spay their own dog either.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

pancho said:


> You can't show a spayed dog. The dog may have been bought especially for the bloodline. I would never agree to spay a dog. I would never ask a person to spay their own dog either.


very true, but if it's such a valuable show dog, wouldn't you think the owner should be able to identify it with show photos, microchip, tattoo or something other than a couple of puppy photos? This is not a case of returning a positively identified owner. It's a case of a rescue dog being given to someone who claims it was their pet. If it's a pet, why would they care if it is spayed?


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

"sent hubby photos of the dog"
look at the white markings. white toe, chest ..... if she is their's then you have no right to alter her.

if the pup was stolen at 6 months she may never been shown. not everyone tattoos or microchips but does not make them less likely to be the owner.

Just be careful about what you do.
if it wasn't that long ago maybe there is a report still out their about the 3 dogs being stolen.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> very true, but if it's such a valuable show dog, wouldn't you think the owner should be able to identify it with show photos, microchip, tattoo or something other than a couple of puppy photos? This is not a case of returning a positively identified owner. It's a case of a rescue dog being given to someone who claims it was their pet. If it's a pet, why would they care if it is spayed?


Not lot of people microchip or tatoo a dog. I have only had one dog with a tattoo in my life and none with a chip. Most pit bull people don't go for those.
When she disappeared she was too young to show. Shouldn't be any show pictures of the dog.

My Gr. Ch. dog did not have a single picture of him.
I did have another Ch. that was well known all over the world, no chip or tattoo.

I don't see where the man has stated why he had the dog. It could be a pet, show dog, breeding *****, companion dog, catch dog, or other.

If it was my dog and someone spayed her they would be in a world of hurt.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Really pancho? The person who found your dog in nasty shape on the side of the road, a year after you lost it, who took it in, cared for it and made an effort to find the owner - would be in a world of hurt if they also got her spayed??

He didn't say why he had the dog, but the man didn't _have_ the dog. The dog was god-knows-where until it ended up on the side of the road. It's a common breed, my sister's pit has almost exactly the same markings - they're not particularly unique.

Nope, he wouldn't be able to breed or show if she was spayed. But, seems to me, the fellow lost breeding and showing _along with the whole dog_ a year ago.
Very unlucky, but that's life sometimes.
She will still be a perfectly good pet or working dog. And Ravenlost can be perfectly honest and tell him that it looked like she was recently pulled off pups when she was found, that more then one person had the exact same story and that she wanted to make sure the dog didn't end up in a bad situation - _again._

Was it me, I'd be thrilled to just have my dog back, and grateful to the folks who cared enough about her to do the best they could.

And if I find/catch a dog - that girl is getting spayed! If she's in my yard, the owner can be glad I don't do what some people do and just shoot her! The percentage of show dogs versus the percentage of pets, strays and dumps is so low that it would never even cross my mind to worry about it.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I agree with you Otter. NO way would I EVER release a rescued pit bull to a new home without spaying it first, unless the rightful owner has some concrete PROOF it was their dog, not just a few puppy photos. Being spayed is going to keep the thugs who might want her for breeding from having any interest in her at all. It will go a long way in protecting her from the wrong people and also prevent yet another litter of pit bull mixes from coming into the world.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Otter said:


> Really pancho? The person who found your dog in nasty shape on the side of the road, a year after you lost it, who took it in, cared for it and made an effort to find the owner - would be in a world of hurt if they also got her spayed??
> 
> He didn't say why he had the dog, but the man didn't _have_ the dog. The dog was god-knows-where until it ended up on the side of the road. It's a common breed, my sister's pit has almost exactly the same markings - they're not particularly unique.
> 
> ...


Many times the owner of a dog has the dog for a certain reason. Well, really everyone who has a dog has it for a reason. Not all dogs are pets. If it was me and someone did rescue my dog I would thank them and offer a reward. If I knew they decided to spay the dog before returning it the least of their worrys would be a court battle.

There are many red dogs. Most people on this forum even stated they did not even think it was a pit. That just shows how much the normal person really knows about the breed.

I was a pit bull judge. Maybe I can see a difference in the dog in question than the normal people who can't describe a true pit bull will notice.

What makes you think a dog ends up in a bad situation if they are not spayed? What is so bad about breeding a dog?

If you paid a lot of money for a certain bloodline that you were going to use for breeding you might not be as pleased if someone spayed the dog. But if your dog was only a mixed stray that will just set at home eating and crapping it might not matter.

There are people who have dogs for other reasons.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

If this was indeed a valuable breeding animal, then perhaps the alleged owner should have told her up front and offered her a reward for rescuing and rehabilitating his dog.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> If this was indeed a valuable breeding animal, then perhaps the alleged owner should have told her up front and offered her a reward for rescuing and rehabilitating his dog.


I don't know what purpose the original owner had in mind for the dog. He didn't say. I am just trying to explain that some people do not want to spay their dogs. It shouldn't be up to anyone else to make that decision for them.

I don't think you would want me to make decisions about your animals. Everyone deserves the same thing.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

the difference is I can PROVE my animals are my property. they are microchipped. The person who claims this is their dog cannot prove a thing. How is she to know if this really is the owner and it's a valuable dog (which I highly doubt) or if this is just some thug looking for a free brood *****? The shelters are full of them already and most of the people who are breeding them should not be. They are the popular dog of choice for all the low lifes and thugs.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Many don't micro for fear of cancer. I chip everything on my place except rabbits and chickens but it is a free country (well, it is suppose to be) to some an Anatolian looks like a Dane/GSD mix.
and even if it is just a pet the owner may feel that it is their right to choose and some get a bit upset when they don't get to... 

all I am saying is go into this with eyes wide open. 
most people don't want to risk a law suit.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> the difference is I can PROVE my animals are my property. they are microchipped. The person who claims this is their dog cannot prove a thing. How is she to know if this really is the owner and it's a valuable dog (which I highly doubt) or if this is just some thug looking for a free brood *****? The shelters are full of them already and most of the people who are breeding them should not be. They are the popular dog of choice for all the low lifes and thugs.


I will agree with what you say.
They are a popular dog with thugs and low lifes.
Do you think Raven might be a good judge of a person?
Just my opinion but if I thought the person was not the original owner and did not have the best interest of the dog I wouldn't give it to him anyway.
Spayed or not should not be the choice of a person who wants the dog returned to its owner.
If the person is asked and they do not have a problem with the dog being spayed that is different. If the dog is spayed just because of being afraid the dog will go to the wrong person they should not give the dog to that person.

Like you say, the shelters are full of them. Why would a person go to a lot of trouble for the dog when they can load a pickup full of them any day of the week for free?
Mostly the people breeding pit bulls nowdays are those with bullies. The dog in question would be of no value to them. Even they are having to give the blue hogs away now.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> Many don't micro for fear of cancer. I chip everything on my place except rabbits and chickens but it is a free country (well, it is suppose to be)
> even if it is just a pet the owner may feel that it is their right to choose and some get a bit upset when they don't get to...
> 
> all I am saying is go into this with eyes wide open.
> most people don't want to risk a law suit.


Makes sense. People usually like to make their own decisions about their dogs.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

the shelters don't give dogs away. They charge a rehoming fee and also don't usually let them go unspayed. So the average thug can't walk into a shelter and get a free pit bull, they rely on the "free to good home" listings on craigslist.

Years ago I had a friend who bred long coated Dachunds. One day she had a sweet little old lady come over to buy a pup. The woman ended up buying two, so they could be playmates. My friend thought she had found the pefect home for those two pups. A month later, a woman called her to get more information on the pup she bought from a pet store. Seems this "sweet little old lady" was actually a puppy broker, supplying local pet stores with pups for sale. The price paid was triple what my friend charged for the pup orginally. All I am saying is you can't judge a book by it's cover. People can put on a heck of a good show when they want one of your dogs. I stand by what I said....I would not let that dog leave unspayed.

And around here (and in most other areas in the south), people breeding pit bulls don't give a thought to bloodlines or quality. If it looks like a pit bull, it gets bred and the pups sold to anyone who will buy them.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> the shelters don't give dogs away. They charge a rehoming fee and also don't usually let them go unspayed. So the average thug can't walk into a shelter and get a free pit bull, they rely on the "free to good home" listings on craigslist.
> 
> Years ago I had a friend who bred long coated Dachunds. One day she had a sweet little old lady come over to buy a pup. The woman ended up buying two, so they could be playmates. My friend thought she had found the pefect home for those two pups. A month later, a woman called her to get more information on the pup she bought from a pet store. Seems this "sweet little old lady" was actually a puppy broker, supplying local pet stores with pups for sale. The price paid was triple what my friend charged for the pup orginally. All I am saying is you can't judge a book by it's cover. People can put on a heck of a good show when they want one of your dogs. I stand by what I said....I would not let that dog leave unspayed.
> 
> And around here (and in most other areas in the south), people breeding pit bulls don't give a thought to bloodlines or quality. If it looks like a pit bull, it gets bred and the pups sold to anyone who will buy them.


Your choice. I just hope that someday a person does not decide to make decisions about your dogs without asking you.

What if a person found your dog and decided they didn't like the chips and had them removed?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

pancho said:


> Many times the owner of a dog has the dog for a certain reason. Well, really everyone who has a dog has it for a reason. Not all dogs are pets. If it was me and someone did rescue my dog I would thank them and offer a reward. If I knew they decided to spay the dog before returning it the least of their worrys would be a court battle.
> 
> There are many red dogs. Most people on this forum even stated they did not even think it was a pit. That just shows how much the normal person really knows about the breed.
> 
> ...


Well, that's the thing - he doesn't _have_ a dog. He hasn't had a dog for a year. Have fun in court, if you can't prove beyond a doubt that the dog is not only yours, but also that you have been harmed by the person who found it in the street and returned it to you.
I hear judges love it when people waste their time.

If I was going to pay lots of money for a certain bloodline for breeding, I would not be pleased if I* lost* the dog. 
A YEAR later, I'd be pleased to get it back in _any_ condition. If a dog worth breeding isn't a dog worth having - what exactly makes it worth anything?

Congrats! You know a lot about pits! No one is denying that you know more then the rest of us about this breed. How would _you_ go about proving in court that this is your dog and you are damaged by no longer having breeding rights to it a year after it was lost?

People have dogs for lots of reasons, but this fellow doesn't _have_ this dog, does he? Ravenlost has it, and is under no legal obligation to give it back in any condition unless the owner can prove beyond doubt - to a judge that is probably as uneducated about the breed as all of us common folk here - that it is his.
But Ravenlost is a good, kind person and willing to give him reasonable doubt.

Not enough doubt to risk sending this dog into a situation where she may end up pumping out puppies, most of whom will end up being put down by poor, pit-ignorant slobs like me and others on this board, when they end up in shelters with LOTS and LOTS of other poorly bred pits and mixes. 

But at this point, it isn't his dog - and it certainly isn't your dog. It is _Ravenlost's_ dog and she can spay it as she pleases. If she chooses to give it to someone who has a picture of a pup with similar (common) color and markings - she can do that too.
Or not.


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## pumpkin (May 8, 2012)

I agree. Be very careful and suspicious. Hard to believe by people are devious and will lie. My neighbour sold 3 pups to a woman who said she wanted each of her kids to have a dog of their own. She later found out the pups were always intended as food for a pet python. I honestly am not over that shock yet.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

It is Ravens decision. I am just thinking what would be best for the dog and the original owner if it is the real owner. She will make a good decision.

I would ask before deciding to spay a dog if I had any idea it might belong to this individual.

Many people want to preserve a certain bloodline. Some people want to breed an exceptional dog to produce exceptional pups.

There are not many real pit bull owners nowdays. There are a lot of people who own a dog that they think is a pit bull.

If a real pit bull breeder was keeping a dog to preserve the bloodline and raise pups they would have absolutely no use for a dog that was spayed. If the dog was spayed and then returned to the owner it would be put down. But that is what many people think should be done with the bred anyway.

Speaking as a used to be pit bull breeder. If a person did find one of my dogs I would appreciate it greatly. If they decided to spay the dog then return it to me, there would not be any court proceedings. I would do whatever I thought was fitting for a person who destroyed my property.

I can't say the man is the owner of the dog. I can't say what the dog was intended for.
I can't say what will happen to the dog. All I can say is that I would not like it if a person spayed my dog. If a person is keeping the dog they have the say if the dog is spayed or not. If they think the person might be the owner they do not have that right.
If they think the person will not take care of the dog they should not give them the dog.
If they decide to give the dog to the person it should be not be damaged before then.

Again, it is Raven's decision. I am sure she will do what is best for the dog.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

pancho said:


> If the dog was spayed and then returned to the owner it would be put down.
> Speaking as a used to be pit bull breeder. I would do whatever I thought was fitting for a person who destroyed my property.



NICE!! 
So you're saying that if someone found a dog a YEAR after you lost it, spayed it and returned it to you, you would put the dog down and then take revenge on the rescuer :goodjob:

Wow, and with breed ambassadors like that, I simply can *not* believe there are so many people out there who won't back up pit bulls as a breed or their breeders.
Crazy old world, huh?


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## Zilli (Apr 1, 2012)

Otter said:


> But at this point, it isn't his dog - and it certainly isn't your dog.* It is Ravenlost's dog and she can spay it as she pleases.* If she chooses to give it to someone who has a picture of a pup with similar (common) color and markings - she can do that too.
> Or not.


This. ^^^^

Edited to add: I can't believe that someone would say they would put a dog down because she had been _spayed_!

Seriously, what kind of a person would do something so heartless?


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

pancho said:


> Speaking as a used to be pit bull breeder. If a person did find one of my dogs I would appreciate it greatly. If they decided to spay the dog then return it to me, there would not be any court proceedings. I would do whatever I thought was fitting for a person who destroyed my property.


wow....so if you lost your dog a year ago and someone found it and spayed it, youd not only kill the dog but you'd take revenge on the owner??? Nice.....real nice.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Otter said:


> NICE!!
> So you're saying that if someone found a dog a YEAR after you lost it, spayed it and returned it to you, you would put the dog down and then take revenge on the rescuer :goodjob:
> 
> Wow, and with breed ambassadors like that, I simply can *not* believe there are so many people out there who won't back up pit bulls as a breed or their breeders.
> Crazy old world, huh?


I am saying my dogs were worth a large amount of money because of their worth as breeding animals. Me personally, my dogs would not last 12 hours loose. I would never have to worry about them being returned.
I would never own a spayed or neutered dog. You couldn't run fast enough to give me one, no matter how good the dog was.

I do not blame people for their feelings about pit bulls. My feelings are that they should be banned from the city limits in every city. No pit bulls allowed in the city limits of any city.
I believe there are way too many people who own a pit bull. Even if most of them are cross breeds and poor quality.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> wow....so if you lost your dog a year ago and someone found it and spayed it, youd not only kill the dog but you'd take revenge on the owner??? Nice.....real nice.


You haven't been reading my posts. It would be impossible for me to loose one of my dogs for very long. People would never attempt to catch and hold one is they saw it. I would never own a spayed or neutered dog.

If A person did have a dog of mine, advertised the found dog, and I notified them it might be my dog, yes I would be greatly bothered if they decided to spay the dog. I definately would not take the dog. If I found out later the dog had been spayed she would be culled immediately.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

pancho said:


> Me personally, my dogs would not last 12 hours loose.


Are their collars set to self-destruct?
_Man_, I wish I could get some collars like that. My beagle would be in trouble though.

Since you feel so strongly about breeding dogs, I wonder if you ever retired any? If a b*tch got to old to have a big, healthy litter I guess you'd put her down. She'd be as good as spayed.

I guess you're right, what good is a fixed dog? I mean, it's not like you can hunt with them, herd with them, do search and rescue, do scentwork like drug detection, pull sleds, guide the blind, participate in dog sports, help the handicapped ....
Oh, wait, you can. 
You just can't have puppies.
No, you're right, that definitely makes a dog useless. Better to put them down.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

The judge might see this way.

6 month pup stolen. year later dog found. the finder puts up adds (before the dog is legally theirs), this is proof the dog is NOT theirs (the finders) some one comes forth with pic. finder then spays.

which could be taken as holding and damaging property that they knew was stolen.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

enough!

Let's get back to helping Ravenslost. We all know both she and her dh are going to be super careful with any placement - and to do everything in their power to keep the dog out of fighting or breeding as best they can. 

Let's trust them! and let's not bicker. 

Please.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

did the pic show the white marks?

I think giving both side to what could happen is "helping"


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Otter said:


> Are their collars set to self-destruct?
> _Man_, I wish I could get some collars like that. My beagle would be in trouble though.
> 
> Since you feel so strongly about breeding dogs, I wonder if you ever retired any? If a b*tch got to old to have a big, healthy litter I guess you'd put her down. She'd be as good as spayed.
> ...


The collars are your story, I don't know anything about them.

Yes, I retired several dogs. After a productive life.

I am sorry you have never owned a dog worthy of breeding. Not much I have in common with such a person. I always liked to have quality animals.

You will have to find another person to talk to that has more in common than I have.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I'm not as adamant as pancho, but I'm no fan of "spay everything that moves" either. I was a breeder for almost 40 years, I've bred some nice dogs, including Best in Show winners and stud dogs that sired pups that went on to have records for the most Best In Shows in their breed at that time. If I sold a puppy and it came back spayed, I wouldn't put it down, but I was breeding breeds known to be social and friendly with other dogs too, not real pit bulls. I could place them in a good home and be comfortable with my responsibility there. I wouldn't be likely to keep such a dog as my own pet (when I was breeding) because I'd already have the breeding stock I needed for my plans for my bloodlines. I do and have kept my own bitches that I retired from breeding as my pets. I can see that, with a pit bull, you'd want to know that dog well to keep it for just a pet, there is an added level of responsibility involved. What Pancho says makes sense to me. 

It is not cruel to put a dog down. There isn't anything wrong with that. I really don't enjoy it at all, but I have put down dogs for health problems and for bad temperaments (for the breed). For instance, I won't keep a really timid dog or place it out. They are miserable. Nor would I keep a dog that had a bad or iffy temperament and bit a kid, even if I thought it would finish its show Championship or be useful as a hunting dog (thinking of the English Setters I used to have). I would (and did) put such a dog down. Hard, yes, but necessary. If I couldn't deal safely with the dog, who would be able to? I couldn't have the responsibility of placing him and having him hurt someone's kid. Not worth it to keep him alive. 

When I read Pancho's posts, I see he knows his breed and accepts the responsibility of dealing properly with them. What use would he have for an adult spayed ***** in a breeding kennel? How could he place her in a home and have a responsibility for her behavior with other dogs (or people), if he didn't know her very well and have raised her from a puppy? Even so, he's breeding fighting dogs... you can't just spay them and turn them loose as a family pet. That'd be crazy. The liability would be out of hand.

I'm not a proponent of fighting dogs, but I do understand what he's talking about and have some idea what he was doing as a breeder and judge. 

As an aside, I am against microchipping pets. I believe the day is coming when there will be a huge push for microchipping people and it will seem like a good idea and part of what will be brought out is, "It's been shown to be safe in pets for decades!". Not in my pets, not supported by me.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

tailwagging said:


> did the pic show the white marks?
> 
> I think giving both side to what could happen is "helping"


The pup in the picture sent to hubby had white front paws. This dog does not. It is not his missing puppy, but he wants to believe that she is and said he would take her regardless.

Hubby is going to the guy's house tomorrow to check him and his place out. Hubby asked the guy if he had records at the vet's for the puppy and he said he'd never taken a dog to the vet. This worries us, but we know there are a lot of folks in the country who don't take their dogs to the vets...my parents rarely did. Of course, I do NOT agree with this type of thinking!

I never heard from the guy 200 miles away yesterday and then today I get an email saying he and his wife wanted to drive up today and get the dog!!! I emailed him back and told him I do NOT believe the dog is the one he had stolen (sure are a lot of stolen dogs in MS) as she is younger than the age he claims his dog would be...at least I (and pancho) think she's about one and a half.

At this point I don't know what we're going to do. Guess we still have a lot more checking into these folks before we make a decision. 

BTW...considering the serious and widespread problem of pet overpopulation and dog dumping in my county, my state and my country, any stray dog I pick up is going to get spayed/neutered.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Actually pancho, I'm just wondering in what way you can know with such certainty that your dogs would not "last" 12 hours loose and why you would never have to worry about them being returned.

And as for the rest, you have been so vocal about how a non-breeding dog has so little value to you, that you would cull it, put it down, etc, that I was curious just how far that went.
My dogs have value in and of themselves, and not just for the $puppies$ they can produce - but maybe that's just me. You are right in that we have nothing in common

I am also curious why you and tailwagging are trying to intimidate Ravenlost out of spaying a stray dog? Both of you with totally nonsensical talk of court, and you with "do whatever I saw fitting to the person who destroyed my property"



tailwagging said:


> The judge might see this way.
> 
> 6 month pup stolen. year later dog found. the finder puts up adds (before the dog is legally theirs), this is proof the dog is NOT theirs (the finders) some one comes forth with pic. finder then spays.
> 
> which could be taken as holding and damaging property that they knew was stolen.


Let's stop trying to intimidate Ravenlost and use a teeny bit of logic. 
Let's start with A) pictures do not prove ownership of a dog. Yeah, I saw the white markings - and I've seen nearly identical ones on any number of dogs. They're not particularly distinct or unique. She's had two people both swear it was their dog. Can they prove it beyond doubt? 
No.

Then let's move on to B) I like this; _ 6 month pup stolen. year later dog found. the finder puts up adds (before the dog is legally theirs), this is proof the dog is NOT theirs (the finders) some one comes forth with pic. finder then spays._ - you mean standard operating procedure for almost every shelter in America?
Someone ought to tell them that's not legal  I don't see a lot of lawsuits shutting them down - but you should try it! Let someone drop of one of your dogs in the county run clink, then go in the very next morning with lots of pictures and try to get the dog back unspayed.
Tell me how it goes.

Now for C) _before the dog is legally theirs_ Please, look up the laws and tell me just how long that takes. You'll probably have to have your local legislator write them first. Dogs are one of those "possession is 9/10ths of the law" type deals.
Don't believe me? Try this. Feed a stray in your yard for two days, watch it go over to the neighbors and damage something and if it comes back into your yard, explain to the cops how it's not your dog. Then explain to the judge why you shouldn't be fined for the damage the dog did.
Good luck with that. :hysterical:
Legally it is YOUR dog unless you or someone else can prove beyond a doubt ownership by another party.

So let's stop trying to intimidate Ravenlost with all this garbage, ok? She doesn't deserve this.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

if it is not the same pup then he has no rights and you can spay at will.


What I think must be remembered is that not every dog out on the street is a stray. some do have homes that are missing them and looking for them in which case the pet is still owned.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Otter said:


> Actually pancho, I'm just wondering in what way you can know with such certainty that your dogs would not "last" 12 hours loose and why you would never have to worry about them being returned.
> 
> And as for the rest, you have been so vocal about how a non-breeding dog has so little value to you, that you would cull it, put it down, etc, that I was curious just how far that went.
> My dogs have value in and of themselves, and not just for the $puppies$ they can produce - but maybe that's just me. You are right in that we have nothing in common
> ...


*sigh*
I was not trying to intimidate her. there are LAWS out there. even the AC has to go by those laws. many dogs have markings true and some maybe close BUT if those marking fit and they spay a dog knowing it belong to some else then that is against the law.
ever wonder why AC holds dogs/cats before altering them? or fine owners if they come get their pet before the 5 days? because they have to wait until they are the owners before they CAN lawfully altering or adopt out.

and yes if my dog got stolen I could prove it was mine and you bet I better get it dog back unaltered or there will be a court case and they will loose. be it AC or anyone. I don't play games.

here (and most places) before it can be legally yours (to alter or adopt out), you must put up ads or show that you have actively looked for owner (calling AC and such) and if the owner doesn't respond in 5 days THEN the dog or cat is yours. 

Soo now how do you think I know all this???

I use to help with a animal recuse center. we had to deal with owner time constraints all the time. hell,you couldn't even de-worm a "stray" because you would be practicing veterinary medicine w/o a license
I know what I am talking about. 

I told her to be careful and to do what she wants with eyes wide open


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

I realize that not every dog out on the street is a stray. Sadly, 99 percent of the dogs out on our rural road IS a stray. In the 8 years and dozens of dogs we've rescued here, ONE...that's right...ONE was claimed by its owner! She was a beagle...a hunting dog and her owner talked to my husband a day before I found her. He was walking the road looking for her. Next day she turns up in our driveway and I took her home.

Of the rest, we always post "found dog" notices at our community store and at the vet's office. NONE of them have ever been claimed! NONE...and I'm talking a couple dozen or so dogs. Before we got a shelter here (a couple years ago) the first place you called if you lost your dog was the vet's office. The dogs wandering the roads here are DUMPED, not lost. 

Honestly, most of you naysayers have no idea what type folks and what type area I live in. We are one of the poorest States in the country. We're very rural. People here aren't getting pit bulls to show...they get them to bet on in back yard dog fights, for backyard breeding, or they have them as pets...status symbols. 

If I want to spay this dog (and I do) I'll do so because I've been feeding her, caring for her (tick removal, treatment for worms, etc.) for over a week and NO ONE has proven to me that she is their dog.

I think it's pretty funny that some of the same folks who said the "owners" who contacted me sounded fishy, but now that I want to spay the dog those "owners" have all the rights and I'm a criminal!


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

tailwagging said:


> ...here (and most places) before it can be legally yours (to alter or adopt out), you must put up ads or show that you have actively looked for owner (calling AC and such) and if the owner doesn't respond in 5 days THEN the dog or cat is yours....


I've done all that so I'm good to go!


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

yes you are. 
the only thing i was pointing out is IF those pic did match then you could face trouble if you had spayed her.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

RL, you are a good person with a solid head on your shoulders. Follow your gut and do what it tells you. Also, there is no way to prove when the dog was spayed, is there? So taking her in immediately and having the guy wait a few days...who says she wasn't spayed just before he called?


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

vet records


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Oh, duh. (slinks away in embarrassment)...

Still, I stand behind RL's ability to make good decisions.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

lol we all have a duh moments.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

HA HA...I have duh days, even duh weeks!

Here's why I spay/neuter the strays we find. This was posted by our shelter (small town, rural county) on their Facebook page:

_Senatobia-Tate County Animal Shelter
*26 May*
Taken in approximately 205 animals since *May 1*. That is the reason we make sure ALL animals are spayed and neutered before being adopted._

That's 205 animals in 26 days! If those animals were adopted out unspayed/unneutered, can you imagine how big the stray problem would become just in our county in a very short amount of time???


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Ravenlost, you guys are good people, animal lovers, and your own judgment will bring you through this. You chose to save this dog and you will do the right thing by her. May God bless both of you. She is a lucky girl!


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Thanks gapeach.


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## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

Ravenlost I have been following this thread and I want to say a huge THANK YOU for picking up this lost girl and taking her in. I know you and your hubby will find the best home for her possible. I love reading all your posts and seeing all the good you and your hubby do. Ditto what Gapeach said and God bless you both for all you do .

Justine


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Otter said:


> Actually pancho, I'm just wondering in what way you can know with such certainty that your dogs would not "last" 12 hours loose and why you would never have to worry about them being returned.
> 
> 
> So let's stop trying to intimidate Ravenlost with all this garbage, ok? She doesn't deserve this.


It is very simple. If a dog of mine was released it would immediately kill the first animal it came across. Some would also immediately kill the first person they came across. I just don't see them running loose for 12 hours without seeing a person or an animal.
Such a dog would have to be killed. It would continue its killing streak until I caught it or it was killed. Everyone I knew was always advised if they saw one of my dogs running loose to kill it immediately.

I have great respect for Raven and know she will do what she thinks is in the best interest of the dog. For some reason I do not think she can be intimidated by a person on the computer.


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## Zilli (Apr 1, 2012)

pancho said:


> It is very simple. If a dog of mine was released it would immediately kill the first animal it came across. Some would also immediately kill the first person they came across. I just don't see them running loose for 12 hours without seeing a person or an animal.
> Such a dog would have to be killed. It would continue its killing streak until I caught it or it was killed. Everyone I knew was always advised if they saw one of my dogs running loose to kill it immediately.


So, how does a dog become that vicious?

Genetics only?


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Gee...thanks everyone! I'm sitting here blushing!

I do take in everyone's advice...both sides! and then I make my own decision.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Zilli said:


> So, how does a dog become that vicious?
> 
> Genetics only?


The dogs are not that vicious. They were selective bred for hundreds of years to be a killing machine. Just like the greyhound was bred to be the fastest dog, and just like the bloodhound was selective bred for a great sence of smell.

That is what made my dogs the way they were. They were a result of selective breeding. They were some of the top pit bulls in the U.S. and the U.S. has the top dogs in the world.

That is also what made them valuable. The fact that I personally tested each dog I bred and only bred the very best was a reason they were valuable.

Today there are not any dogs like them left. Their breed has been so watered down they are a shell of what they once were. They are more dangerous to people now days though. Every once in a while the pit bulls of today will have a puppy that is a throwback to what they once were. The majority of pit bull owners do not know how to handle such a dog. It is just about impossible to explain to a person who has not seen such a dog just what they are capable of doing.


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## Zilli (Apr 1, 2012)

How did you test them?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Zilli said:


> How did you test them?


Game test. The only way to tell if a pit bull is worthy of breeding. If they are not game they should not be used for breeding purposes. There wasn't a lot of game dogs back them and now there are even less.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Ya know, the way the world is today, there is even less room for a game dog than there was too. People have no idea, I know I wouldn't know how to handle such a dog, and people get hurt. Some purposes for some of the old breeds have to go and, either a new purpose can be bred into them, or the breed will have to go too. I can respect the idea of gameness, I had terriers, but even in a small terrier that becomes a lot of trouble and a liability. When I groom a terrier, I am aware that you don't continue a fight, you just back off if the dog becomes upset, let them cool down and they are as good as they can be for you. With some of them, if you escalate, they can't back down, its not in them. They don't have to be mean, they just aren't wired to back down from a fight.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Pancho, people like you is why this breed is in trouble. You have created the genetics to make these dogs into monsters, capable of killing humans. It's the genetics that you and your kind have put out there that are the ones we read about in the papers, the ones who attack and kill children. You brag about how your line was so carefully nurtured to create these fighting machines and if a dog does not make the cut (in other words, if it is not vicious enough) it is killed. That is sad and pathetic. These dogs are quite capable of being beloved members of some one's family. Oh, not the bloodlines you helped create but the regular ones who still know how to love. My pit bull is a wonderful, gorgeous animal who is kind to everyone. she loves strangers and loves her canine house mates, even sharing her food bowl with them. I am sure if she were in your hands, you would have slaughtered her because she is too nice. I am sure that you are an "expert" in your own way, but I really doubt any of us here on this board enjoy reading about your breeding and fighting practices. I know it sickens me to hear about it. You helped create the bloodlines that make many of these dogs vicious, unstable and dangerous....what you call "game". And you seem quite proud of that.

Ravenslost, sorry for the drift this thread has taken but I just had to get this off my chest. It is a very sad time for pit bulls and I am so glad you have taken this girl in and are finding her a good home. Thank you for that.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

I think dog fighting gets discussed on this board more then some of the game pit boards I am on.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

JasoninMN said:


> I think dog fighting gets discussed on this board more then some of the game pit boards I am on.


No idea how true that is but I wouldn't be surprised.eep:


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

GrannyCarol said:


> Ya know, the way the world is today, there is even less room for a game dog than there was too. People have no idea, I know I wouldn't know how to handle such a dog, and people get hurt. Some purposes for some of the old breeds have to go and, either a new purpose can be bred into them, or the breed will have to go too. I can respect the idea of gameness, I had terriers, but even in a small terrier that becomes a lot of trouble and a liability. When I groom a terrier, I am aware that you don't continue a fight, you just back off if the dog becomes upset, let them cool down and they are as good as they can be for you. With some of them, if you escalate, they can't back down, its not in them. They don't have to be mean, they just aren't wired to back down from a fight.


Yes, I don't think there is room for a game dog anymore.
There will always be a few people who keep them alive but I think the name will change so people can tell the difference in a game dog and a regular dog.
I do know the general public has no need to own a game dog.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> Pancho, people like you is why this breed is in trouble. You have created the genetics to make these dogs into monsters, capable of killing humans. It's the genetics that you and your kind have put out there that are the ones we read about in the papers, the ones who attack and kill children. You brag about how your line was so carefully nurtured to create these fighting machines and if a dog does not make the cut (in other words, if it is not vicious enough) it is killed. That is sad and pathetic. These dogs are quite capable of being beloved members of some one's family. Oh, not the bloodlines you helped create but the regular ones who still know how to love. My pit bull is a wonderful, gorgeous animal who is kind to everyone. she loves strangers and loves her canine house mates, even sharing her food bowl with them. I am sure if she were in your hands, you would have slaughtered her because she is too nice. I am sure that you are an "expert" in your own way, but I really doubt any of us here on this board enjoy reading about your breeding and fighting practices. I know it sickens me to hear about it. You helped create the bloodlines that make many of these dogs vicious, unstable and dangerous....what you call "game". And you seem quite proud of that.
> 
> Ravenslost, sorry for the drift this thread has taken but I just had to get this off my chest. It is a very sad time for pit bulls and I am so glad you have taken this girl in and are finding her a good home. Thank you for that.


I chose a breed of dogs and bred to the standard. I didn't choose a breed and immediately start trying to change it.
Much like people who breed and raise greyhounds. They usually do not get them then start breeding for the slowest dog around. Like people who get a bloodhound and immediately start breeding for a dog with no ability to trail.

What about some of the other breeds. Do you know people who have poodles who breed for a short haired one?
What about the small lap breeds. Do you see people get them and try to breed them to be larger?

What about the LGD. Do you agree with people getting them and breeding for less ability to guard stock?

There are many breeds of dogs. A person can choose one that fulfills just about everything they want in a dog. What is the reason to choose a breed developed for a special task and trying to breed that out of the dog? Why not just get a breed that does not have the trait you don't like?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JasoninMN said:


> I think dog fighting gets discussed on this board more then some of the game pit boards I am on.


All of the boards that deal with game dogs are by invitation only. If you don't know a member personally you can't become a member.
There are other boards about the pit bull but they discuss mostly the bullys and other waterered down breeds. Even the ones considered game dog boards usually have a membership consisting of kids and women.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ross said:


> No idea how true that is but I wouldn't be surprised.eep:


It might be that the subject of the pit bulls comes up very often.
How is it possible to discuss a bred of dogs and not mention why they were bred and developed.


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## Caitedid (Jun 2, 2004)

Can I just say that if one of my (admittedly pet quality) dogs got lost I'd be dang glad that it got taken in by someone like Ravenlost. My dog isn't chipped, but I have 50+ pics from before his eyes opened to yesterday, vet records, and a couple bones. If I was using him to breed, I might be upset if he got neutered, but I'd still be glad to get him back alive and well. It's MY responsibility to keep him safe and in breeding condition, not anyone else's.


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## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

If I had a pit bull (or any dog) at my place long enough for me to have become the owner under the abandoned property statutes (3 months where I am), I would have it spayed before I released it to anyone. It would increase the likelihood of finding her a home that has the right intentions and the reality is that there are enough breeding dogs floating around that we don't need to add any more to the mix. That is just my opinion.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Here if you feed animal for 24 hours it is yours. I would point out the if someone had the papers but lost a similar dog, they could claim the dog, say the papers belonged to the that dog and use it for breeding "purebred dogs". I think spaying is a good idea if RL is willing to pay for it--or get her vet to donate the spay.


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## Ruby (May 10, 2002)

Pancho, I don't know how you sleep at night KNOWING one of your dogs would kill a human (could even be a child) if one were to accidently get out. I've thought for a long time you raised fighting dogs, this just proves my thoughts.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Well, she is headed home at this very moment and has not been spayed! The other so-called owner 200 miles away could not produce a photo of her so hubby decided to take her to the local guy so he'd stop texting him every five minutes! However, hubby is going to check out the guy's place, how he will provide for the dog and how the dog reacts to him. If anything looks or feels "off" she will be coming back to our house and we'll give the out of town guy a chance.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

fingers crossed for a clear decision!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ruby said:


> Pancho, I don't know how you sleep at night KNOWING one of your dogs would kill a human (could even be a child) if one were to accidently get out. I've thought for a long time you raised fighting dogs, this just proves my thoughts.


I don't raise dogs now. I did for many years.
I raised show dogs, several conformation champions. I raised catch dogs. I raised guard dogs. I raised hunting dogs. I raised obedience dogs. I raised agiity dogs. I raised personal protection dogs. I raised fighting dogs.

I took care of my dogs. I build a containment system for them. I didn't let them run free. I took the time and effort to learn the history of the breed.

Any person who has owned a pit bull has raised a fighting dog. That is what they are.
If you raise a greyhound does that make it something different than a race dog?
If you raise a blood hound does that make it something different than a trailing dog?
If you raise a LGD does it make that make it something different?

People can try to fool themselves but if a dog is selective bred for hundreds of years for a special task just because you don't like that task does not mean the dog you raise wil be different.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ravenlost said:


> Well, she is headed home at this very moment and has not been spayed! The other so-called owner 200 miles away could not produce a photo of her so hubby decided to take her to the local guy so he'd stop texting him every five minutes! However, hubby is going to check out the guy's place, how he will provide for the dog and how the dog reacts to him. If anything looks or feels "off" she will be coming back to our house and we'll give the out of town guy a chance.


I think you are doing the right thing.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Pancho, no matter how you try to sugar coat it, raising dogs so they can rip each other apart in a ring for your amusement and profit is barbaric. My pit bull lives a perfectly happy and satisfying life without me indulging her desire to fight. LGD's are pefectly happy guarding a human family. Grayhounds are perfectly happy lounging on a sofa all day. And here's a big one; if I do breed a litter some day and some of the pups do not have LGD ability, guess what? I won't kill them! I will find them a good pet home. Big difference between you and most every other human I know.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> Pancho, no matter how you try to sugar coat it, raising dogs so they can rip each other apart in a ring for your amusement and profit is barbaric. My pit bull lives a perfectly happy and satisfying life without me indulging her desire to fight. LGD's are pefectly happy guarding a human family. Grayhounds are perfectly happy lounging on a sofa all day. And here's a big one; if I do breed a litter some day and some of the pups do not have LGD ability, guess what? I won't kill them! I will find them a good pet home. Big difference between you and most every other human I know.


Not everyone breeds to meet the standards of their chosen breeds. That is the reason we see so many dogs in the shelters and strays running the streets. There are not very many serious breeders today. The majority are back yard breeders who do not breed according to the standards of the breed. That is the difference in me and most other humans you know. I was not a back yard breeder putting out puppies that could never live up to the breed standard.

Usually when a person buys a dog of a certain breed they are expecting that dog to be a fairly good example of the breed. If they are buying a pet quality dog there is no need to pay the extra for a well bred quality dog. Any mutt will do. Selling a dog and calling it a certain breed when that dog is not able to do the purpose the breed was developed for is being dishonest. I try my best to be honest in my dealing with people. I would never sell an animal by calling it something it wasn't.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

It's true that there is little use for a game dog in this society. However, there are still catch dogs used to hunt hogs, and those dogs need to have some gameness in order to do that job. But even there, hunters are not going to want a dog that wants to kill the other dogs in the hunt.

The plight of the Pit Bull is a sad one. The can of worms has been opened once the breed got out of the hands of the few who knew how to handle them, and into the hands of the general public. Nowadays, the breed must either change or die, but one never knows how much the breed has truly changed (or not). A game dog could pop up in any litter, and it's going to be a very dangerous animal in the wrong hands.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolf Flower said:


> It's true that there is little use for a game dog in this society. However, there are still catch dogs used to hunt hogs, and those dogs need to have some gameness in order to do that job. But even there, hunters are not going to want a dog that wants to kill the other dogs in the hunt.
> 
> The plight of the Pit Bull is a sad one. The can of worms has been opened once the breed got out of the hands of the few who knew how to handle them, and into the hands of the general public. Nowadays, the breed must either change or die, but one never knows how much the breed has truly changed (or not). A game dog could pop up in any litter, and it's going to be a very dangerous animal in the wrong hands.


Yes, the breed has already changed enough that some of the few that still raise correct pit bulls are wanting a different name for their dogs or to the new type of dogs. They already do not considered the modern day pit bull a real pit bull. The majority of the real breeders do not sell to the public anymore.

The breed will soon be banned from just about every state. In my opinion that would be the best thing for the breed. That would put a halt to the attacks on people and animals. The breed would be back to what it was years ago before they were destroyed by the public.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Well, she's home. Hubby said she was very happy to see the man, his son was hugging her and she was happy to see his other dog...they kept licking one another. Hopefully we made the right decision and she will live a long and happy life.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

pancho said:


> Yes, the breed has already changed enough that some of the few that still raise correct pit bulls are wanting a different name for their dogs or to the new type of dogs. They already do not considered the modern day pit bull a real pit bull. The majority of the real breeders do not sell to the public anymore.
> 
> The breed will soon be banned from just about every state. In my opinion that would be the best thing for the breed. That would put a halt to the attacks on people and animals. The breed would be back to what it was years ago before they were destroyed by the public.


destroyed by the public? I am confused. Seems to me that YOU are the one breeding dogs that are monsters. You are saying you'd rather see them ALL become the savage vicious beasts that would attack and kill a child on sight, rather than the soft sweet loving family dogs that SOME have managed to become? Yeah lets leave this breed in the hands of the REAL breeders, the ones who profit in watching them kill other dogs by selective breeding for vicious temperaments. Good job there, breeders. 


Raven, it sounds like she is where she belonged. Happy ending!!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> destroyed by the public? I am confused. Seems to me that YOU are the one breeding dogs that are monsters. You are saying you'd rather see them ALL become the savage vicious beasts that would attack and kill a child on sight, rather than the soft sweet loving family dogs that SOME have managed to become? Yeah lets leave this breed in the hands of the REAL breeders, the ones who profit in watching them kill other dogs by selective breeding for vicious temperaments. Good job there, breeders.
> 
> 
> Raven, it sounds like she is where she belonged. Happy ending!!


Do you even know what a standard is?
Do you know what a pit bull is supposed to be?
Some breeds of animals were bred for a purpose, not just to be something some people play with. There are breeds specially bred just for that purpose.

What would a person want to breed a great dane that matured at 5lbs?
Why would someone want to breed a hairless cocker?

I said I would much rather the dogs remain in the hands of people who know the breed, its purpose, and how to handle them.
Right now they are in the hands of people who think just because they want a gentle kind hearted pit bull their dog will be one.
That has been the cause of so many dog attacks on people and animals.

Can you name a single attack by a pit bull owned by a person who breeds to the standard? Now can you name the attacks by dogs owned by people who think just because they don't want their dog to do something it won't.

Just look at the time attacks by pit bulls started. They had already been in the U.S. for hundreds of years and there wasn't a single attack on a person. As soon as people decided it was the way the dog was raised and not the breeding that caused them to be a certain way the attacks started.
One thing in common just about all pit bull attacks have in common. When the owner is questioned they will all say, "My dog would never hurt anything, it just suddenly went crazy. It is the fault of the other person.

The majority of pit bulls bred would not attack a person. Some will. It takes a person with the knowledge to know one from the other. The people with that knowledge know how to handle such a dog and prevent accidents. The people who own most pit bulls today do not know anything about the breed and have absolutely no idea what they are capable of doing or what to do when it happens. 
I think that is a dangerous combination. People who do not know about the breed of dog they have. A dog capable of killing other animals, and people who cannot control their dogs.
I would say they are the ones who are breeding dangerous dogs.
Can you show me a single attack by a pit bull on a person before 1980?
Can you show any since then? That was just a little over 30 years ago. Pit bulls had been in the U.S. for hundreds of years without a single attack. Look at the number since 1980. Why do you think that happened?


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Hey mods, y'all can lock this thread now. It wasn't meant to be a pitbull pro/con argument. 

Thanks!


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Temperament is 50% genetic and 50% environmental.

both are very important and must be considered.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

You guys have completely highjacked Ravenlost's wonderful thread. 

Start your own thread please!


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Wait before this gets locked...

So Raven, you think the dog did belong to these people originally? That is AWESOME!


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

No, their picture didn't match. However, they were still interested in having her so Raven's DH took the dog over to meet them, see how they interacted with the dog and where she would live. He felt comfortable that it was a good home.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

Glad it looked like a good match, glad you didn't have to hold her endlessly to find a decent placement.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

I think it was a very good thread all the way though.
A happy ending and informative too.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

What society is today and what it was before are very different. People have done far worse things in the past than raising fighting dogs, some places in the world they still do. I try to let these threads run so that people can learn from the information offered up. You don't have to agree but you do have to keep it nice. Ravenlost would prefer the thread locked so I'll lock it. Feel free to start another thread on the topic, just know that if it becomes toxic (not just distasteful) it will be moderated.


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