# In a global pandemic, which countries are safest havens?



## remmettn (Dec 26, 2005)

*In a global pandemic, which countries are safest havens?*
https://www.foxnews.com/science/in-a-global-pandemic-which-countries-are-safest-havens

"New Zealand, Australia and Iceland could act as islands of refuge for humankind in the event of a catastrophe, according to a new paper from researchers published in the international journal Risk Analysis." “Discoveries in biotechnology could see a genetically engineered pandemic threaten the survival of our species. Though carriers of disease can easily circumvent land borders, a closed, self-sufficient island could harbor an isolated, technologically adept population that could repopulate the Earth following a disaster," Nick Wilson, co-author of the study and a professor at the University of Otago in New Zealand, said in a statement.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Not a fan of having the government decide who gets on the boat and who gets left behind, not that I would even consider it.
These researchers might do well to limit their viewing of AMC while on the clock.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

In recent months, two 150-ton survival bunkers journeyed by land and sea from a Texas warehouse to the shores of New Zealand, where they’re buried 11 feet underground.

Seven Silicon Valley entrepreneurs have purchased bunkers from Rising S Co. and planted them in New Zealand in the past two years, said Gary Lynch, the manufacturer’s general manager. At the first sign of an apocalypse — nuclear war, a killer germ, a French Revolution-style uprising targeting the 1 percent — the Californians plan to hop on a private jet and hunker down, he said.

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-rich-new-zealand-doomsday-preppers/


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Everyone is always saying these days that it’s easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism. Everyone is always saying it, in my view, because it’s obviously true. The perception, paranoid or otherwise, that billionaires are preparing for a coming civilisational collapse seems a literal manifestation of this axiom. Those who are saved, in the end, will be those who can afford the premium of salvation. And New Zealand, the furthest place from anywhere, is in this narrative a kind of new Ararat: a place of shelter from the coming flood.

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-rich-new-zealand-doomsday-preppers/


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## remmettn (Dec 26, 2005)

HDRider said:


> Everyone is always saying these days that it’s easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism. Everyone is always saying it, "
> Never heard that before sounds dumb.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

65-70 miles up the road one of the Uber rich folks (global information exchange systems) decided he wanted a race track for the ever growing collection of cars he couldn't drive well.
Wouldn't go to driving g school and learn to drive, just kept banging up cars and trying to add 'Safety Features' to the track...

As he aged, he caught that Y2K, 12/21/12 bug and built a $1.3 million 'Survival' bunker at the racetrack site.
Under ground/earth sheltered living quarters built like ranch houses (bad design), big half million dollar Cat generator, lots of fuel in tanks, a circular layout in a fairly flat field, one small drain in the middle of the soup bowl.
The budget went over $3 million before the first flood...
And the 6 to 8 inch racetrack above ground level made a dam that funneled everything into the soup bowl.

The fuel went bad from bacteria, someone stole the generator outright, several semi-trailer loads of 'Survival' food made opossums and racoons so fat they couldn't get out out the way they got in, and MICE/RATS by the 10s of thousands...

And let's not forget the water supply was from the grid, no water wells, no power other than the diesel generator, gasoline vehicles with a diesel fuel supply, no renewables, a sewage storage tank that would need to be pumped out for plumbing to continue to work...
This is what happens when you trust local home building contractors to participate, and let's not forget when you use locals, EVERYONE knows exactly what you built and exactly where it's at (hence the theft of the half million Cat generator).

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While it was a 'Fad' for the uber rich and poor man alike to run out and build 'Bunkers', it's not going to do a bit of good.
First off, zombies are a figment of the imagination, never were real, never will be real.

Second, the 'Mass Migrating Hoards' the fear mongers talk about endlessly will simply dig you up if they want you bad enough. An economic collapse isn't going to mean as society collapse.
Even if it did, the heavy equipment, weapons, explosives are all still going to work just fine, and the ancient technology of levers and wedges are still going to work, just like they did to split solid rock for the pyramids.

Third is pandemics, The 1918 'Spanish' flu, and keep in mind there wasn't commerical air travel in 1918, killed from the artic circle to Australia, all the way around the globe.
One of the current fears is a virus or bacteria from ancient times up to victims of the Spanish flu will come out of the permafrost with global warming/climate change and an order of disease humans simply have no defense against will rise again.

The people with actual educations and actual knowledge of these subjects are warning people on the permafrost lines to watch for, but don't come into contact with anything glaciers are spitting out and erosion of permafrost is puking up.
I'm glad the actual educated, trained professionals are on the job and watching closely in these areas.
Just like I was glad those actual educated, trained professionals were dealing with ebola bodies so that disease didn't wind up all over or used as a biological weapon.

And a sobering though,
It took the military 776 tries to get the FIRST air tight seal/no contamination entry into specifically designed bunkers/shelters during simulations of chemical/biological attack.
Humans could NOT make & make & maintain environmental seals, contaminated filters were exposed to the clean environment, people simply forgot to clear vents, people wouldn't use decontamination equipment properly, etc.

Anyone that trained as an NBC officer in charge (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical) was trained to expect 2/3 contamination at MINIMUM, with a 1/3 mortality rate MINIMUM.
And that's with the best specifically designed equipment and experts money can buy...

I choose to spend time & money on what has happened before and can happen again at any time, termites/carpenter ants, fire, floods, tornados, hurricanes on the coastal regions, earthquakes if you are in those areas, economic depressions every 20-30 years, etc.

I choose not to be socially engineered into the impossible or improbable by fear mongers...


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

LOL; Where on earth did the idea come from? Who thinks that a world-wide disease disaster would skip Australia and NZ? Or even Iceland? The moment that it appears to be serious people from all over will be traveling to those places and taking the pandemic with them. Why do you think that we, the US, are working so hard to find a cure or vaccine for Ebola? If unchecked we will one day have it here.

Today some of the old killers are relatively harmless---typhus, the flu, cholera, bubonic plague--- We'll find another one we don't yet know about, but some of us will survive.

On the Y2K thing; on a smaller scale,two of our acquaintances did the same. One lost his retirement. The other stored much, much food under his house---a high hillside left him a big space on one side of the house, but he put the hinges to the door where anyone with a screwdriver or a chisel could take them off. And of course it all went begging because it was not something the family wanted when they could get to a store for fresh food.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

On a pandemic event, it is useless to sit in a bunker in a size of a house...
If it is not self sustaining with food water and filtered air plus energy, it will kill you as well...
So either you sit in Cayenne mountain or Mount Weather and close the door pretty early or you participate in the Charles Darwin lottery...only the fittest survive the disease...and after that only the strongest survive the chaotic new world with war lords and slavery


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

There are some high end bunker builders.
https://securitystructures.com/saferoom-bunker-shelter/texas-bunkers-tx.html

*2800 SQFT Steel Bunker*
*https://risingsbunkers.com/photo-gallery/*









https://www.atlassurvivalshelters.com/military/

You got the cash, they build the stash.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I recommend this book...


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Second_After


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

From that book - 
Matherson is forced to lead several battalions of college kids into battle against the cannibalistic Posse. In the process the college’s resource officer is killed and the students’ numbers are reduced to two thirds of what they were before. After the battle the Posse leader is hanged on the interstate and John releases the several remaining Posse members, claiming that they weren’t going to do any more harm.

One year later, the U.S. military arrives to rebuild and aid the town. It is revealed that the EMP that devastated the contiguous United States was generated by three nuclear missiles launched from offshore container ships. One was launched from the Gulf of Mexico and detonated in the upper atmosphere over Utah, Kansas, and Ohio.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Might want to post a spoiler alert for those who haven’t read the book.
I have.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

"One Second After" was a fear mongers science fiction book.

For those that don't understand how the electro-magnetic link works won't understand this in the slightest, so please refrain from repeating the fear monger 'BoobTube education' conspiracy theories...

The first EMP (Electro-Magnetic 'Pulse') affect was observed when the US detonated the first atomic bomb, generators within the local blast radius shut down.
The generators started right back up, the pulse was a momentary event that caused ignition coils to not produce spark energy at the correct time, the small engines heavily loaded by scientific equipment STALLED.
They were NOT damaged by the EMP effect.

There is no way for humans to produce a large scale EMP event other than a nuclear fission detonation.
That means anyone that intends to use an EMP weapon has to aquire large amounts of nuclear fissionable materials, which isn't easy.

That nuclear material has to be made into a functional bomb, and that bomb has to reach high altitude to be effective as an EMP,
So that means the bad actor would need a rocket to get it to high enough altitude...

That means a medium range, heavy lift rocket program, with guidence & targeting, Alon with a nuclear warhead. That limits the field pretty much...

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The electro-magnetic link FACTS,
You can't create a useable, sustained electrical current without that current movement creating a magnetic field. (How electro-magnetic heating of conductive materials work).

Electrical currents are CREATED when a magnetic field intersects an electrical conductor.
Either the magnetic field has to be moving through the conductor (alternating current generation)
OR,
The magnetic field is fixed and the conductor is moving through the magnetic field (self rectifying DC Generators).

Movement is a REQUIRMENT, magnetic field or conductor will NOT produce current when neither a moving.

What a high altitude nuke does is create a disruption in the fairly stable magentic field of the earth, and as the magnetic lay lines are pushed around, it's a MOVING magnetic force against FIXED conductors, the grid power lines.
Keep in mind power lines are up off the earth surface, the iron content of the earth isn't protecting them.
They also run for hundreds or thosuands of mines, plenty of surface exposure for the magnetic fields snapping out, then back to act upon.

A strong EMP event can generate higher than tolerable voltages, and that will burn through insulation in transformers, etc.
In lower concentrations, the 60 cycle (60 hZ) our power grid is based on can be disrupted and cause failures, circut protecting to trip, etc.

----------------

Where the science fiction comes in...
"All 'Computer' cars will be cooked".
False.
A car operates on direct current, not alternating current, and EMPs have little effect on DC systems.
There isn't enough wiring in a vehicle for the magentic pulse to act upon.
The wiring harness in a vehicle is shielded by sheet metal, and metal absorbes magnetic fields.
You car alternator, starter motor and heater motor makes more stray magnetic fields and power surges than an EMP produced magnetic field can produce from altitude.

The conspiracy theory says anything with an electronic ignition will fail, which is anything from 70 to 74, the last breaker point ignitions for passenger vehicles switched to electronic in '75.
Military testing show most late model vehicles will survive everything but direct high energy exposure from the nuclear blast itself, and if you are exposed to that much nuclear radiation, you will be dead, not driving...

"All hand held devices will be cooked"
False.
Hand held are DC powered, and have virtually no long runs of wiring for a magnetic pulse to act upon.

"EMP will 'Cook' all batteries"
False.
Batteries are DC, and chemical storage, completely uneffected by magnetic fields.

"Society will collapse if an EMP event occurs"
False.
An EMP event won't change the social interactions between humans.
It will stop most manufacturing, but how people react to it will determine how the social interactions happen.
Unless the entire world was hit, I suspect supplies would come rolling in from all directions like they do in any large scale disaster.
(A good argument for the US to resume humanitarian aid and disaster aid, be nice to our neighbors that would have to take refugees in)

"The country will be defenseless"
False.
Military systems are hardened against EMP since that was the 'Boogie Man' for 40 years.
'Strategic Stockpiles' will keep the military up & running for up to 10 years.

There is a reason the DOD (Department Of Defense) recommends a decentralized power grid featuring renewable energy production for civilian population...
And why the DOD/militaries are moving toward renewables and local grids.

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Also keep in mind that most power generators are still Nicola Tesla designs, early 1900s,
While the distribution networks (power lines themselves won't suffer much, but transformers, protections systems and switching systems will need a lot of work).

Privately owned power (home grids) won't have an issue, might not even know it happened.
Not enough miles of exposed conductors for the magnetic pulse to act on.
Local production grids, particularly solar PV, no generator windings involved, and being DC, will see little to no damage.
Some unshielded ultra low sensors might get damaged, but the system will survive.

In home computers plugged into the power grid and network cables might see damage.
The 'Micro Chip' all the conspiracy theorist rant on about won't be damaged, it will be power supplies that are damaged, most likey fuses from power surges.
Network cables are a point of exposure, so you modem type devices might be damaged.
This is where a good, ultra fast surge protector comes in...

The internet, cell phones & computer networks go down, it's 1978.
The power grid goes down it's 1878 that doesn't have an efficient renewable electrical production capability.

If you don't think there will be refugees, you don't have any idea how the food, water, sewage systems work.
In population centers, there is a 3 day supply of food, water, fuel.
When the power stops, the sewage systems will fill up and stop working in about 3 days.

Those people will need to head SOMEWHERE... Grab a shovel and start planting.
That includes grave yards, golf courses, parks, and private property yards, anywhere they can grow food and they will need to do that at the earliest possible opportunity to plant.
And they will need to plant anything edible, not just what they 'Like'.

It will be a GIANT workforce, since most people don't work on a farm or garden, it will be an instant education with On The Job training,
And not everyone is going to be on board with it, but that's what will have to happen as soon as it's possible to plant to feed 97% of the population that have no idea where food comes from.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Might want to post a spoiler alert for those who haven’t read the book.
> I have.


That was in the link she posted.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

I have to admit my ignorance on the 1918 flu.
I knew it was bad but I had no idea it killed a third of the worlds population.
Taking care of that many bodies would be a very gruesome undertaking.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Yup, the pasts in the past had some good punch...
But hygiene was also not so much common as it is today...
But i assume, it would kill more theses days due to the great delivery systems like planes and delivery drivers stopping everywhere and spreading it like candy.
Good to life somewhat isolated, so that contact can be limited when the news tell about it before they stop broadcasting


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

SRSLADE said:


> I have to admit my ignorance on the 1918 flu.
> I knew it was bad but I had no idea it killed a third of the worlds population.
> Taking care of that many bodies would be a very gruesome undertaking.





Meinecke said:


> Yup, the pasts in the past had some good punch...
> But hygiene was also not so much common as it is today...
> But i assume, it would kill more theses days due to the great delivery systems like planes and delivery drivers stopping everywhere and spreading it like candy.
> Good to life somewhat isolated, so that contact can be limited when the news tell about it before they stop broadcasting


Spanish flu was described as headache at breakfast, you feel to bad to eat lunch, dead at dinner.
With a slightly slower incubation time, the victims would be contagious passing the virus faster, so it would have been even worse.

A pandemic would spread at the speed of jumbo jets, say around 600 miles an hour.
If it originates in a closed country (like China or Russia) it won't get caught early like it would in the US, Canada, UK etc. where all illnesses & diseases are tracked for frequancy.
(SARS for instance)

The common colds & flu tear through about HALF the US population every year, despite 'Hygiene' improvements in the past 100 years.
Soap & water doesn't do the job you think with hardy airborne viruses.

The thing about the 'Spanish' flu, sooner or later the tumblers in the virus will click back into place... It's not a question of 'IF', it's a question of 'When'.
Modern medicine, IVs for fluids, antivirals, drugs to control fevers and keep lungs clear will save some in the front end of the epidemic, but there simply isn't enough for mass casualties when you talk half the population...
Some will be immune, some will survive the illness, a bunch won't.

We are talking something that will burn itself out, the faster the kill the sooner it burns out.
It could be something with a longer incubation period, and by the time it triggers half the population could be infected,
Despite being stable (not mutating) Hep C wasn't specifically identified until the 90s and there wasn't a treatment until about 5 years ago.
If that been like ebola with a long incubation period while contagious, and more like HIV, a mutating virus, you could pass it for years before it finally shows and kills you.
That's a ticking time bomb in everyone you came into contact with...

Keep in mind there are about 10 million viruses in a cup of common sea water...
There is about 5 pounds of viruses in the adult human body at any given time, that's an estimate since viruses hide in cells and are hard to identify/count the viral load...
Bacteria outnumber your cells by a ratio of 1.3:1 to 10:1 depending on where you live and what your exposure was.
The vast majority are harmless to humans, and many humans can't survive without, but that's a lot of potential mutators out there, and evolution never stops...

Some of us have an education and choose to limit potential exposure.
Your immune system is more important than limiting common everyday exposure, but it sure doesn't hurt to wash up and stay home when you are sick, tell others to go home when they are sick, and don't do something stupid like drink raw 'Spring' water you have no idea where it came from, wash food, etc.

I'd MUCH rather have water from a micron filtered source than raw 'Spring' water...
Some people don't think about just ONE sick worker doing something disgusting in the 'Spring Tank' before it's bottled, while common water comes from chemical treated public water source, and gets treated/filtered several times before automation bottles it.

My water comes from a deep hard rock well, deep water table instead of surface water, and our consumption water goes through a 5 stage filter including RO.


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## D-BOONE (Feb 9, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> First off, zombies are a figment of the imagination, never were real, never will be real.


Zombies are real. If you want to see one go to a bernie sanders rally.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Yes and they vote.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Not that anyone will do anything about it, but politics are supposed to be kept off the open forums, and you aren't supposed to bash political supporter segments.
See everyone with deleted posts and warnings about Donald Trump.

--------------

Actually, I believe the 'Zombie' hoards are the ones looking down at cell phones instead of driving, crossing streets, trying to navigate sidewalks & stairs...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> JeepHammer said: ↑
> First off, zombies are *a figment of the imagination, never were real, never will be real*.


That sounds like a lot of people who post on the internet.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

SRSLADE said:


> I have to admit my ignorance on the 1918 flu.
> I knew it was bad but I had no idea it killed a third of the worlds population.
> Taking care of that many bodies would be a very gruesome undertaking.


The Spanish Flu did not kill 1/3 of the world's population. It is estimated that infected that high of a percentage. It was pernicious not because of a long incubation time; rather, it had mild effects on the populations that normally are susceptible to flu, the very young and old. Those people could still work, go to school and interact with the general population while still infectious. It killed the more vigorous because of its unique effect of causing the immune system to go into overdrive and they died because of secondary effects.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

This is a great book about the Spanish flu and a fast read. Hard to put down.



https://www.amazon.com/Great-Influe...?keywords=The+great+flu&qid=1570150378&sr=8-1


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

History Channel said:


> The Spanish flu pandemic of 1918, the deadliest in history, infected an estimated 500 million people worldwide—about one-third of the planet's population—and killed an estimated 20 million to 50 million victims, including some 675,000 Americans.


Earth's population is estimated at 1.7 billion in 1917.
An estimated 500 million infected and it jumped the Atlantic ocean like it wasn't there in 1916-1917.
With air travel at 600 MPH it can literally be in the US inside of 24 hours, before it's even identified, and if it's not a mutator, a vaccine is two years away...

With WWI happening, people were moving globally like never before.
Average speed on trains & improved highways was about 45 MPH, on water about 25 MPH, and from 1916 to 1918 the pandemic reached the artic circle (miners, fishermen, timber workers) down to Australia, no country was exempt.

The only place that didn't report deaths from the 'Spanish' flu was Antarctica. Not that no one didn't die of 'Spanish' flu in Antarctica, it just wasn't recorded...

Most historians beleve around 50 million dead, virologist believe it to be closer to 100 million dead since they know what they are looking for when researching epidemics in historical records.
Since there wasn't any way to detect a virus in 1918, no one will ever be able to put an actual number on it.

Currently, no living samples of the 'Spanish' flu exist (that the CDC/WHO is aware of), but dead virus from preserved cadavers buried in permafrost have provided the basic genome for the virus.

Since humans were kept at room temp or cooled before they were buried, decomposition killing the virus, the virus died before it went into permafrost, but someone that was quick frozen could very well have dormant, but living virus in them, and that's what the WHO, CDC, ect is worried about with glaciers receding and permafrost eroding, spitting out things that have been contained for centuries, including 'Spanish' flu.

This has precedence,
Ancient yeast strains came out of the tombs of Egypt, along with spores that caused blood infections & organ failure.
A wooly mammoth passed a disease to finders & researchers in 2014 causing liver & kidney damage.
These respond to modern anti-biotics, but if they had been released in largely in the population it wouldn't take long for them to become anti-biotic resistant.
Containment teams mean we dodged a bullet, but there are lots more bullets in the magazine...

Knowing this for decades, I sleep fine since I also know the odds of any given biological mutating into a global pandemic.
Much better chances of a pandemic than winning the lottery, but not high enough I loose sleep, and I don't own any NBC equipment.
You are WAY more likely to contract E-coli 0157-H7 from the (beef) food supply when 10, 20, 30 million pounds get contaminated and shipped, most consumed before the notice or recall starts.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> There are some high end bunker builders.
> https://securitystructures.com/saferoom-bunker-shelter/texas-bunkers-tx.html
> 
> *2800 SQFT Steel Bunker*
> ...


Looks like a giant muffler


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Lisa in WA said:


> This is a great book about the Spanish flu and a fast read. Hard to put down.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Great-Influe...?keywords=The+great+flu&qid=1570150378&sr=8-1


That looks like my ultimate halloween story.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> "One Second After" was a fear mongers science fiction book.
> 
> For those that don't understand how the electro-magnetic link works won't understand this in the slightest, so please refrain from repeating the fear monger 'BoobTube education' conspiracy theories...
> 
> ...


Good take on the difficulties of acquiring the materials and using the technology to produce an EMP large enough to affect the whole US...But more importantly, anyone dumb enough to use nuclear weapons that way, given the uncertainty of its effectiveness , risks full scale nuclear retaliation..Smarter (?) to just launch a regular nuclear attack.

It only takes one stray electron to disable a whole computer chip. Any machines relying on them would most likely be fried by an EMP. Nobody knows if an EMP will fry the generator in a '57 Chevy or the alternator on your '72 Ferrari. Anything with an armature would be susceptible, if the flux is great enough. ...Even a Faraday cage may not work-- the metal frame of a car keeps you safe from a bolt of lightening, but you can still use your cell phone from in there. The cage doesn't keep EM waves or charges out, it only renders the net integrated sum inside the space to be zero.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

If I said it once, I've said it a million times.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

For everyone curious, there is a great Pandemic "game/simulator" for phone and PC: Plague Inc. 
Already wiped out human civilization several times...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

doc- said:


> Good take on the difficulties of acquiring the materials and using the technology to produce an EMP large enough to affect the whole US...But more importantly, anyone dumb enough to use nuclear weapons that way, given the uncertainty of its effectiveness , risks full scale nuclear retaliation..Smarter (?) to just launch a regular nuclear attack.


This was the 'Boogie Man' when I was in the military, and they spent BILLIONS researching what an EMP will & won't do... ('79-'95)
And yes, a surface or near surface detonation (depending on if you want to kill people or contaminate/deny area) is more effective.

An EMP weapon, used for maximum effect, needs to be a specific altitude, and in one of the earths naturally occurring magnetic field clusters.
They are most effective at the equator, and become less effective the closer you get to the magnetic poles.
Magnetic lay lines are more compact and stronger at poles, harder to disrupt.
The Soviets used a HUGE bomb at northern lattitudes and only managed to cook low voltage telephone lines, while the US used much smaller bombs in equatorial regions and disrupted the power grid 1,500 miles away.



> It only takes one stray electron to disable a whole computer chip. Any machines relying on them would most likely be fried by an EMP. Nobody knows if an EMP will fry the generator in a '57 Chevy or the alternator on your '72 Ferrari. Anything with an armature would be susceptible, if the flux is great enough. ...Even a Faraday cage may not work-- the metal frame of a car keeps you safe from a bolt of lightening, but you can still use your cell phone from in there. The cage doesn't keep EM waves or charges out, it only renders the net integrated sum inside the space to be zero.


Computer chips process BILLIONS of electrons a second, and are built both to handle electron movement, and shielded from outside electrons.

What kills computer chips in an EMP event is over voltage, simply too much voltage getting past the power supply (surge) which cooks the semi-conductor material, or a high energy particles like Gamma Rays striking the semi-conductor material.
It's either heat that cooks the semi-conductor material, or over voltage that beats the insulation protecting the semi-conductor material.

If you are close enough to a nuclear detonation you take a high saturation of Gamma particles, your worries about driving are over.
If the computer takes a high enough dose of Gamma particles to fry chips, the computer is too contaminated to use.
Either way, it was a surface blast and not an EMP.
Gamma burst & Neutron weapons function best well below the EMP altitudes, more in the range of conventional nukes since the higher the altitude, the more diffused the effects of Gamma & neutron damage.

Vehicles from '70-'75, depending on manufacturer, were switching from breaker points to electronic ignition, no 'Computers' involved! That's what makes the very idea of cooking an ignition system so silly... NO COMPUTERS.
It was simple TRANSISTORS in the ignition switching modules until the mid 80s when fuel injectors replaced carbs, and some carb vehicles were produced into the 90s.

As for 'Frying' things...
The starter motor isn't going anywhere, too enclosed in a metal case, blocking and absorbing magnetic fields.
Alternators have vents for cooling, but again, there simply isn't enough length exposure there.

Power lines are straight, so the magnetic 'Wave' (front) can induce current and build current as the 'Wave' front runs along at nearly the speed of light.
Generators are wound, bundled wiring, for every electron induced (induction) to move one way, there is an oppsite force created to cancel it out.
No net gain, and it all happens in millions of a second...

*IF* the generator were running at the time, it *Might* damage sensors or something like a voltage regulator. If it's stopped and turned off, there aren't any connections made to conduct the over voltage pulse.

And if you want to protect your stuff just like the guys in the EMP labs, simply get a metal box and stick refrigerator magnets (sheet magnets) to the metal.
The magnetic ferrous material in the sheet magnets stops incoming magnetic fields cold.
It's a STATIC magnetic field several thousand times stronger than the localized effects of the earths magnetic field (notice I said localized effects) and will absorb the natural magnetic field that's snapping around from an EMP.
Their common laptops survived being in the test chamber with the vehicles with a simple metal cover and vinyl sheet magnets.

Now granted this was late 80s/early 90s passenger cars when I saw the testing, but some of them didn't even quit running even when the EMP generator fired, others stalled but started right up.
With energy discharges that spot welded door & hood hinges, and it triggered a bunch of trouble codes, but the vehicles ran after, and sometime through the EMP event.

As for a refrigerator magnets being several thousand times more powerful than the natural magnetic field...
It was demonstrated to me this way, and with a gauss meter (measures magnetic fields).
You take a common pair of pliers and rub them in dirt or metal filings, even though those pliers and the iron filings have been exposed to the earths magnetic field for years, they they won't pick up many filings.

Magnetize those pliers or filings, and every one will jump together.

With a gauss meter, they waved a magnet around, the meter swung around as the magnet got closer and farther away.
Put a sheet of vinyl refrigerator magnets in front of the gauss meter, and wave the MUCH stronger magnet around, and mostly no change in the gauss meter.
The FIXED magnetic field (sheet magnet) immediately distributed the moving field along it's surface, loosing most of the energy in the attraction/repelling between the two. It barely showed up on the other side of the sheet magnet since the energy was expended in attraction/repulsion on the other side.

Like I posted at first, once you understand the electro-magnetic link, it's not the boogy man everyone thinks it is. Just wrapping the vehicle ECM's case with sheet magnet kept EVERY vehicle running during the EMP discharges, every single one ran with nothing more than refrigerator magnets, which I thought was the coolest 'Science Trick' I'd ever seen at the time!
Trouble codes galore, but still running...

Also, make no mistake, the "One Second After" books 'Cannibal Hoards' would be met with serious firepower from the US military, there is a reason the DOD has 'Think Tanks' and senior NCOs have training in EMPs, nuclear attacks, chemical attacks, biological attacks that go beyond 'Duck & Cover' or donning a gas mask.
The oath is to protect the US and it's citizens from enemies, foreign or domestic...

In the FICTIONAL book people think is accurate, everything electronic died except for an old computer in a collage basement,
And the Government/military watched the 'Cannibal Hoards' attack the town without supporting the town. I can tell you that wouldn't happen, there wouldn't be any command structure that would keep troops out of a fight like that, orders or not.


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## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

Canada has lots of space if you get away from the cities where most of the 36 million people live. This country is 4000 miles across so that population is small . If you have survival skills and know how to cope with seasonal extremes it would be as safe as about anywhere. Years ago we met people who packed up and moved into Canada from their home country. They came in as visitors but never left! They had sold their first home in their own country and bought one here. The man said no one bothered them as long as they didn't access the health care system or get in trouble. He worked for cash only. Unfortunately for him he was a drunk and got in trouble with the law and as you can imagine he was eventually deported! However his family applied and were excepted as permanent residents eventually. I don't advocate being an illegal immigrant but if you can come in legally Canada is a pretty good place to live and not too crowded except in the main cities. In case of epidemics it is possible to isolate oneself away from the masses.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

lmrose said:


> `* Years ago we met people who packed up and moved into Canada from their home country*.
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


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## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

There are at least two still here I am aware of who came to avoid the Vietnam conflict. People generally don't advertise why they defected to Canada. Not so easy to do now days.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Not so easy to do theses days?
Why not? There is no real border?!
And with passport you can even just drive over with all your belongings...


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I recommend this book...
> 
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Second_After
> Read this book and was kinda unnerved at how simple they made this happen.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

JeepHammer said:


> Currently, no living samples of the 'Spanish' flu exist (that the CDC/WHO is aware of),


Except for the resurrected one: *www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/09/AR2005100900932.html*


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## markt1 (Dec 15, 2013)

Chile advertises itself as "The end of the world" because in the southern half you can literally go to where you are hundreds of miles from any other person. Cars now have silicon in their ignition modules which are vulnerable to EMP. Likewise modern generators. There are lots of Scud missiles on the open market internationally that can get above 100 miles high, which is enough to reach out quite a ways with an EMP optimized fissile nuke. Wouldn't have to even reach the shore or be all that accurate. Five small container ships could really hurt the USA. Iran or North Korea come to mind. And a single sub-launched fusion bomb 300 miles over Kansas could zap all of the silicon gadgets in the entire USA in one high altitude bang. A recent poll of retired US generals indicated a belief that China would be our next big war opponent. The curent status of EMP optimized nuclear weapons is top secret in virtually every nuclear nation, so no reliable data actually exists to settle the threat argument one way or another. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse#History


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Ok, so now I just have to go back for the milk....


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

Quick hint...pandemic is now even more likely...PREDICT got stopped...by...of course...our never failing beloved leader in yellow...


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

GTX63 said:


> Ok, so now I just have to go back for the milk....


and some miralax because you are going to be plugged up,lol


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Most of the urb and suburbanites won't realize that once the grid shuts down, they won't have power to keep their 96 gallons of homogenized Prairie Farms milk cool. A little bad milk will clear a path and leave it clean as a whistle.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Well, to each their own...
I'm aware of the potential issues that *Might* happen,
And someone that *Tries* to prepare ('Preppers') for EVERYTHING prepares for nothing.

I was worried about my retirement/old age (assuming I live that long).
Deep wells for water, power to get that water up where it's useable,
(All things being possible with enough power)
Preserved produce & seed for more produce,
A shelter that is self temp regulating.

Earth sheltered home, super insulated, 'Normal' ground temp range that's livable all year around.
Passive solar and active solar thermal, and a little wood it's VERY comfortable.
I built in doorways wide enough for wheel chairs and a flat floor plan.
More food/equipment storage than house living space.

Enough hand cranked/drill powered processing equipment to get the harvest in,
Enough canning/preserving equipment to keep that harvest at least a year.
Several years worth of cans/jars in reserve.

I'm far enough out in the weeds I can stay away from other people if I need to, 
And I grew up a farm/river kid, I'll eat about anything.

I'm more concerned with flood, fire, storms/tornados, food shortages, etc than some *Possible* epidemic or EMP attack.
Since my 'Spares' and backups are in a metal, earth sheltered housing, I'm not much worried about EMP. 
Between shielding, spares and everything being built modular for easy maintenance, I'd be back in operation in a couple days *IF* solar panels were effected, which all research indicates it wouldn't be...

It's up to everyone else what they want to do,
I want clean food, clean water, energy efficient shelter & my own power.


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