# Why are so many reliant on the government for their survability?



## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

I read it here and see it all around me everyday. People on foodstamps, people on WIC, people on heating fuel assistance, people on medicaid, people with housing assistance, free school breakfast and lunch programs, and more I can't think of right now.

Please someone tell me when this country turned away from "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." And even further to paraphrase JFK, "Ask not what this country can hand out for free, but what you can do to bring self sufficiency." More and more it seems people expect the government to be their safety net and even more their daily means of survival.

I will admit to being on foodstamps early in my marriage for TWO WEEKS, but for ME the enbarassment of going to the local grocery store and being scene using them was enough incentive for me to want to get off them as soon as possible. To me the multi-generational families that live off welfare are what is killing this country from within. 

I expect to be soundly blasted for this topic and half expect it to be banned but I am giving it a shot anyways.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Short answer? 

The government desires it that way.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Because they are just learning to be self reliant.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Too many variables to give a good answer. You can't look at everyone the same. Some are there because of bad luck and instead of starving they take what they can get. Others are lazy. Some use it as a means to an end, like getting foodstamps even though they COULD get by without in order to pay off a mortgage or something.

So it all depends really.


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## Vickie44 (Jul 27, 2010)

I think there is a victim mentality that is prevalent in our society today . Mom or Dads fault , societal or peer pressure. However there are many like you who have used the systems that are available to help themselves out of a hard time . You took two weeks , others might take more or less time. Its never the fault of the children and they should not go hungry.~ Vickie


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Everyone has a different story and there are many reasons why people receive government aide.
Some use it as a helping hand during hard times, while others are generational welfare recipients.
Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel? Don't be shy.....


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Ok, I can't just give a short answer ...

The government has a vested interest on making EACH of us dependent upon them. If they don't get you on food stamps after they help drive your jobs to some third-world country where peasant work for a dollar a day, then they'll get you at the end of your life with social security after their schools have helped destroy the bonds of family and your children won't take care of you.

Each and every one of us is at all times in danger of having the slave collar placed around our own necks. In fact, most of us have one degree of slave collar or not. How is having a job and being dependent on that paycheck every two weeks that much more different than being on welfare? 

"But I WORK for a living!" the salary man claims. Oh really? How many of our jobs are actually real work? Most of the remaining jobs here in America are either shuffling Chinese-made goods around or deal in some part with the bureaucracy created by our government surrounding FRN's. How can those people feel that much more superior to someone on welfare? Particularly someone who may have once held a REAL job making a product before we decided that it was better to buy that product from China and save us a buck, even if it meant driving our neighbor to the government's slave collar?

It's time we start freeing the slaves. If you're on unemployment, welfare, or any other form of government assistance then I am sympathetic to your cause. Let me help you slip that slave collar off your neck and we'll get you out under the fence while the guards aren't looking. 

And just maybe in the process we'll manage to get the slave collar off my OWN neck, though it may be a different fit than the poor souls who eke out a meager existence on Uncle Sam's plantation.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Ok, I can't just give a short answer ...
> 
> The government has a vested interest on making EACH of us dependent upon them. If they don't get you on food stamps after they help drive your jobs to some third-world country where peasant work for a dollar a day, then they'll get you at the end of your life with social security after their schools have helped destroy the bonds of family and your children won't take care of you.
> 
> ...


âYouâre either a big leaguer or youâre a slave clawing your way onto the C train"


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

Because it is there.


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## AR Cattails (Dec 22, 2005)

Please don't look down your nose at everyone on government assistance in the same vein as you might those who have used it generation after generation.

I am not on government assistance right now but trying to make it month after month is getting harder and harder and I don't know how much longer I can go on.

I didn't ask for the situation I am in now. My now ex-husband threw me away after 25 years of marriage. I thought it was going to be forever. So I'm in my 50's, haven't worked in over 25 years but I have been looking and looking and no one wants to hire me, my health is bad and I am getting a small alimony check that after paying rent and utilites, medical bills and prescriptions, gas, car insurance, I may have $20 to use for food for the month. So I go to the food bank(you are allowed one visit a month) to get about 6 cans of vegetables, a can of chili with beans, a can of tuna, a pkg. of either bologna or hotdogs and sometimes a pkg. of sticks of margarine. About what you could fit into 1 plastic Wal Mart bag. Not much and I am very thankful for it but it doesn't help much over a month. I do live in low-cost housing so my rent is cheap and I thank God so very much for that because I had been looking and looking for the longest time before I found this apartment.

I don't have insurance. I have found a clinic that will charge you based on a sliding scale policy so I am so thankful for that. My doctor has prescribed lower cost versions of my medicines (except for one) and I am very thankful for that. I don't know what to do about the one I can't afford. It's about $169.00 a month. No way. When I run out that will be it and what happens will happen. I need two surgeries I can't afford. I have teeth issues but can't afford a dentist. 

So after much consideration I've decided that sometime this summer I will apply for food stamps and medicaid. Who knows if I will even be approved. I've always heard you have to know the system and I sure don't. Maybe disability too because I truly don't believe I can hold down a job at this point for health issues. Having to do this leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I know I will be looked down upon by "certain" people. But I can't help it. I never thought I would be in this situation. And I don't want to be here.

I am going to apply for a pell grant to go back to school this fall to try to update my office skills of 25 years ago and learn computer skills. Never had to use a computer in office work back then so I need to know it now. I hope this will lead to employment.

I would rather have a job. *I* don't like having to live this way no more than *you* like me living this way.

Sorry to ramble on and on like this but I want you to understand how maybe some of us find ourselves in this situation and how we truly don't want to be here.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know it's not helping to beat them over the head for it.
I think since the economy crashed, more and more people are getting that it cann't stay this way.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

So many reasons. 

I do believe it will come to a head soon. 1) Because it's going on an well above sustainable levels and 2) because with the economy the way it is more and more people are paying attention. When the middle class starts getting crunched they start paying attention to where those pennies are going. People are getting tired of carrying the weight of others on their back when the weight of their own family is all they can bear.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Funny, I don't feel enslaved. :nana:

Indentured maybe but not enslaved. There is still some free will and privilige. That is a topic for different thread I imagine.


As for entitlement programs and people who accept them, I'll share a few categories I know, though I am not covering them all.

1. Some people truly are ignorant. Not in an insulting way, just not very educated or street wise, actually ignorant by the true definition. Some people really truly have a hard time connecting all the dots in life and the government safety net saves them from themselves. I don't consider these people good or bad, maybe pitiable. Some were never taught how to survive the real world and some are just below average in intelligence. My reference: I was briefly homeless aka: living in a domestic violence shelter. Among my peers I was the first to do everything when it came to restarting my life. It came natural, I wanted a new life and knew what it took to get there. One of the "hand out officials" confided in me that she was surprised because so many of the other young mothers were lost. (not minors) They literally did not know how to pay bills or cook or even care for their children and she had to teach them these basic skills. How on earth is that kind of person going to get by on their own?...they don't.

2. Some people are lazy or part of the FTW mindset or a combination of the two. Some people really do mooch off of the system because they don't give a care about anyone but themselves. They are only a portion of the people who get help. These are the types that get everyone in a fuss over assistance programs, the multigenerational families.

3. SOME products of the multigenerational family don't know any better because they are raised in communities that do not celebrate success by traditional standards. Some people believe that a subsidized apartment is truly all they can achieve in life, no one ever modeled otherwise. No one ever told them to do homework or to think about college. No one ever enlightened them to the best handout, pell grants. They in all reality cannot fathom how on earth they can rise up to be more than a product of poor parenting. The world the rest of us lives in does not compute for them, it does not exist, they never even drive through it.

4. Some people are cheesed off at the .gov for a host of real or imagined reasons. Maybe something as simple as an anger at high taxes leads them to think that they deserve a piece back. They pay in so perhaps they see accepting something such as wic as being justified. Maybe getting a little help eases restrictions on their budget. It's like a coupon for a free soda or meal or something. Many people see the .gov as big and faceless as a corporation. They don't see the .gov as for them or even reachable by them so why should they care much about it?

5. In the case of social security, some people pay in all their lives at the promise that they will be cared for so they expect the .gov to honor it's promise. Maybe a bit naive but a pretty basic expectation. It's called trust.

edited to add 6. Some people are down on their luck and want a hand up not a hand out.

Since it appears that our economy cannot sustain itself without artificial assistance measures (because we are now in the age of a 3 income households when many can't even find 1) we could always cut off assistance and start funneling the money into the clean up of disease outbreaks when health departments no longer give out free shots as well as body retrieval when many people starve.

I'd rather pay for that.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

hintonlady said:


> 1. Some people truly are ignorant. Not in an insulting way, just not very educated or street wise, actually ignorant by the true definition. Some people really truly have a hard time connecting all the dots in life and the government safety net saves them from themselves. I don't consider these people good or bad, maybe pitiable. Some were never taught how to survive the real world and some are just below average in intelligence. My reference: I was briefly homeless aka: living in a domestic violence shelter. Among my peers I was the first to do everything when it came to restarting my life. It came natural, I wanted a new life and knew what it took to get there. One of the "hand out officials" confided in me that she was surprised because so many of the other young mothers were lost. (not minors) They literally did not know how to pay bills or cook or even care for their children and she had to teach them these basic skills. How on earth is that kind of person going to get by on their own?...they don't.


You've been awfully serious lately so I'd like to inject some humor. Hopefully it doesn't get me in too much trouble.


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

I don't have a problem with giving a hand up, but I get very, very upset with those whose irresponsible behaviour has put them in a position where they can't possibly EVER support their own families expecting to collect "benefits" long-term.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

"Why are so many reliant on the government for their survability?"

I'm sure most will tell you that it is not their fault. This or that happened, and then you were on the hook for their housing, their children and their food. 

With the exception of SEVERE disability, it is always the individual's responsibility. 

No matter what, you better have a back up plan. Savings, investments, family, a network of friends, church, something you can count on, other than counting on the thievery of our government.

I freely donate to charities I feel worthy, as well as individuals. What I DO NOT agree with is the government taking my money at the point of a loaded gun so that other people can "fall back on it".

The reality is people are taught not to worry, they can always count on their Uncle Sam if things get hinky.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Some have overcome their early training, but some wallow in it. Here's how I see the countries fall from "self sufficient mentality" to "entitlement mentality".

When I was a child, we either paid for our lunch or carried it from home, there was no such thing as a free lunch. 

When my children were young, the schools started sending home free lunch forms so children of low income parents could get free lunches. People filled out the forms, their children was put on the free lunch program, then the kids received a "free lunch ticket" that made it obvious to all their friends that they were "welfare cases". It could, and often did, cause a lot of embarrassment for the child, making him or her an outcast among their peers.

Parents would do just about anything to avoid having their children on the free lunch program. It was like standing up publicly to say that you were incapable of taking care of your children and needed the state to step in and be the responsible provider for your family. 

Then suddenly the schools started putting almost all the students on free lunches. It became the norm. The kids who paid were then the outcasts who were made to feel ashamed that they paid instead of being one of the "normal" kids who got free lunch.

This entitlement mentality was taught to our children by the public school system. That mentality was firmly embedded in the children as they grew to adulthood. It was an easy step for them to go from free lunches at school to the food stamp program. 

The program was originally designed to give people a temporary hand up when they fell on hard times, but some learned they can add other entitlements and turn it into a lifestyle. Some have taught their children to follow in their footsteps so we now have 3rd and 4th generation welfare families.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I think it started whe they made abortion legal. The father didn't have to stick around. So the goverment stepped in.


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## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Ok, I can't just give a short answer ...
> 
> The government has a vested interest on making EACH of us dependent upon them. If they don't get you on food stamps after they help drive your jobs to some third-world country where peasant work for a dollar a day, then they'll get you at the end of your life with social security after their schools have helped destroy the bonds of family and your children won't take care of you.
> 
> ...


I am sure this posting by me will get deleted because it isn't all happy happy joy joy, but it is what I see as the truth.


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## Dr. Mom (Jan 13, 2008)

Like Ernie, I believe it is the intention of the government to make as many people dependent on entitlement programs as possible. It's been this way for a long time and will continue unless we can turn it around.

But since this is a Survival forum, what if we took personal responsibility to care for our friends and neighbors, to encourage them with a hand up, and use our knowledge and skills to mentor others to improve their lives. 

Instead of pointing fingers and implying irresponsibility accusations, what if we go through our own pantries and take a bag or two of groceries to a local church pantry or homeless shelter or food bank? Or offer to teach a survival class or some other skill that you are familiar with at your local library? 

We need to teach our children and grandchildren the importance of individual responsibility and the gift of individual charity. They will become what they see. If they only see government handouts as the answer then nothing will change. 

"We should make the poor uncomfortable and kick them out of poverty." Ben Franklin


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## beaglebiz (Aug 5, 2008)

Spinner said:


> When I was a child, we either paid for our lunch or carried it from home, there was no such thing as a free lunch.


Or you skipped lunch, or your friends shared theirs...BTDT


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I think giving to the food bank is great, but some people I know even play that system.
One guy I knows goes to every one in the 2 towns here. Must one place every day that he goes to now. But he spend his welfare cash on beer and pot. He is disabled but still seems wrong.
We give to the food bank when we have extra.


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## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

Dr. Mom said:


> Like Ernie, I believe it is the intention of the government to make as many people dependent on entitlement programs as possible. It's been this way for a long time and will continue unless we can turn it around.
> 
> But since this is a Survival forum, what if we took personal responsibility to care for our friends and neighbors, to encourage them with a hand up, and use our knowledge and skills to mentor others to improve their lives.
> 
> ...


I have taken personal responsibility for my actions in regards to this. I have donated food and personal hygiene items to the local food pantry, I have bought meals for people on the street, I have given money to people obviously down on their luck, I have stopped and helped people alongside the road with car problems using my own parts to get them on their way. All expecting nothing, but pleasantly surprised when a thank you is given.

We are taking my married son and his wife and daughter back into our home because he has fallen on hard times. WE as a family will help see him back at work and them back on their feet again.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Yes, and when you do the right thing it is hard to see so many take advantage. Or worse demand even more.


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## elizaloo (Jul 5, 2010)

I fully expect a complete and utter failure of the welfare system. Nothing else will ensure the survivability of the country. We have gone so far down the road of EVERYONE using the government handouts as a way of life more so than the safety net it was designed to be.

A hand up when you lose your job and are searching for another? Sure.

What happened to self sufficiency? Taking care of your own. Paying your own way. Utilizing the food banks and the churches. 

What happens when a woman in a third world country has a baby? No one steps up and offers WIC or Medicaid or any other social program. If she doesn't have the reserves to provide for the baby, it dies. Wow, that's harsh right? Um, IT'S REALITY people. We are fortunate here in the United States to have that WIC or Medicaid program....but eventually it's going to end because it's not self-sustaining. These programs rely on those of us who work full time. 

It's only a slave collar to the government because I have to support EVERYONE else who makes poor lifestyle choices. I work in a hospital in a moderately affluent area, and guess what, it's RARE that I see paperwork for a patient who has private insurance. That HORRIFIES me. An alcoholic detoxing in ICU for 3 weeks....um, guess I'm gonna have to work for another year or more to pay for his stay. And then, he's back 6 months later to detox AGAIN. Another year before I can retire, just so he can get his Ativan drip and his sitter because he's out of his mind while he detoxes. 

It's just infuriating that those of us who work get up every day, believing in the system while the sloths laugh their butts off sitting at home, waiting for their checks.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

You do realize all these arguments are over resourses. They are getting thin and mighty hard to come by.
hard to tell your kids No when you know part of your check went to buy some one else a big screen tv.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

SocialAnarchist said:


> I read it here and see it all around me everyday. People on foodstamps, people on WIC, people on heating fuel assistance, people on medicaid, people with housing assistance, free school breakfast and lunch programs, and more I can't think of right now.
> 
> Please someone tell me when this country turned away from "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." And even further to paraphrase JFK, "Ask not what this country can hand out for free, but what you can do to bring self sufficiency." More and more it seems people expect the government to be their safety net and even more their daily means of survival.
> 
> ...


It's an insidious process. Read _When Night Came to the Cumberlands_ for how it started. There are other factors that have come along since the Great Depression like deindustrialization. The Great Depression caused by an ignorant Federal Reserve started the process of generational welfare and entitlements. Once the process started it's almost impossible to go back especially with the jobs situation and economics in general. As previous generations pass away a new normal develops in which ever increasing entitlements develop. Now we're up to health care as an entitlement.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

You know by blaming this on the goverment your making a victum out of the welfare recipient. That is the last thing that they need to help get them back on their feet.
In fact that is the very concept the goverment is using to make them think they deserve to be taken care of. The last thing we all want to do is help the goverment.


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## bigfoot2you (Oct 3, 2007)

When I graduated from High School in 1973 I went directly to work in a Sled Factory.........making furniture and sleds and toboggans.........I was making decent $$ and could afford a decent apartment with a friend. I had no vehicle, I walked where I needed to go or got a ride. My grandparents worked in the shoe shops............and the wood products factory............Father worked in another factory making furniture.........none of my family went to college........most of them never finished high school.........BUT THERE WERE FACTORIES AND JOBS AVAILABLE for them. Where are the factories now for folks just getting out of HS? What is there for work for the ones graduating now that have a way below 4.0 average? Where is there affordable housing for the average Joe? (housing not filled with holes and rats?) It used to be when you worked for a company for 25 or 30 years you felt secure in your job..........you lived on the good wage you made...........but you developed, say, heart problems.........all of a sudden your job is being eliminated........or your yearly appraisals are way below what they need to be..........your "numbers" don't compare with the young pups and you are pushed out............let go.............now you're in your 50's with heart problems looking for another job...........who's gonna hire you? THOSE are the people that need the help, food stamps etc. More and more and more of them every year!


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

I will play.

11 years ago my husband was injured on the job. Medically things were very unclear. the company he worked for for 10years each winter season wanted it to be dropped. We struggled to find an answer medically. He kept getting worse. It was like not only a back pain deal for something that could not be pin pointed but his brain got worse. Well it had to be the pain meds. It did not help that he is bipolar for years since 16. He wanted to work which meant driving but I rode with him and one day I had to have him pull over and take the keys and get his lic removed. 

I owned land in a rural area. I had money and I owned a house DH owned nothing --I had a life before him and I worked for years and saved as if it was the depression. DH had earned far more than I but had nothing to show for it but good times. There was a 9 year old dh bio son and my adopted special needs sweet heart. Socially living in a city was not good for dh it was safer to move away from people in crowds. I hired a man to build us a handycapped home and paid 1/3 down for the work ---the man was a con man he ended up in jail years after he stole the money and left of homeless but not landless with an offer on my house which would have cost bucks to back out of the sale. Took the equ out of the home and had a build built for animal on the land and moved in. I communted 200 mile each way to work staying in my car till a friend offered me a room. Applied for SSDI for dh. 7 years later when the brain anerisue was found he got it. the Back injury was pin pointed out medically and proven on march 31 of this year we won. What did we win. We only asked that the TAYPAYERS got paid back , the docters got paid back, that the state got paid back that the insurance co got paid back. And finally that all future medical care would get paid. The person decieding the case on hearing this put some money on our plate. 

So for 7 years a family of 3 paid 600 amonth on the land 105 for ele to the land plus a use ele billand that came out of 927. We made it because of HERE. No I can give back. I know it is odd but with out a lawyer just sticking for what I knew was right and from somegreat people here in Alaska we made it. I NEVER thought that with 3 college degrees comming from a wealthy family I would be in NEED but I was. It was a great learning chance for me. We took good care of what little we had and Now we are blessed again but I am a better person for what I went thur. I thank God Now but I questioned him then.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Anyone working a job, or two or three... could find themselves in the soup line.

MANY people did during the great depression. I daresay they were harder workers (physical labor) than the vast majority of us on this board.

Anyone can lose their job.

I've got a good job, pays decent, etc. But my job is in peril right now because our plant may shut down. Why might it shut down? A multitude of reasons but none of them make a difference when it closes the door.

Can I get another job? I sure hope so. But it's all in God's hands.

Anyone crowing about all that "they've done and would do" who still work for someone else, really just don't understand their position in life.

Those who OWN their own businesses know how quickly it can dry up.

There used to be carpet baggers during the GD. Look up that term a bit and learn about them.

I don't believe our country has the moral fiber to weather another GD (and we've not seen one by a long shot, despite what the pundits say... but we could).

Can you imagine your husband, or hey, since we're all modern and liberated from those silly old traditions, your wife, traveling doing odd jobs and living on the streets?

Before anyone pats themselves on the back and "how self-sufficient they are", get down on your knees and thank God for his blessing.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

I didn't want to speak my mind on this but I've seen alot in my rental business. My family has been in it for over 30 years. When babies are trying to raise babies that don't have the income or family support they fall into the government give me world. When you see 30 year old grand mothers, people on disability moving appliances and your on tennants trying to sell you a kerosene voucher for 1/2 off when they have a new heat pump. You get numb to the system !!!!


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

SocialAnarchist said:


> I am sure this posting by me will get deleted because it isn't all happy happy joy joy, but it is what I see as the truth.


Aw shoot... if I'm reading it, then it's still here. Just for this post, I was hopin you were right.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

anybody that knows me knows I been kicked off GC about this stuff. But you can blame the govt all you want and you will be part right. But the simple fact is the blame lies with each and everyone of us. 
What are you doing locally to help someone help themselves. What are the churches doing but whining for more congregation ,bigger buildings and more money. Truth is each individual has given away the responsibility for helping one another. Lots easier to let the govt handle it. Local, Sate and Federal. That way we don't have to put out the time,effort and what ever else to help someone. I'm not talking about those that won't do anything to help themselves. They can rot. But as the world goes back to a more normal time of mass killing and poor living (Read some books on medial history. We have been on a vacation the last two hundred years or so) It will become more and more important to do things at the local level. Everyone is going to have to use their personal attributes to keep the families and local societies together. Somebody once said at the start of a great country. "We must hang together or we will all hang separately". Were about to find out how true that is.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

I was awefully confused today when I was standing in line at the gas station behind a middle aged feller--- I was in there to buy gas, would never buy any of the expensive junk food in there with my own money let alone if I had food stamps. Well this feller ahead of me had bought two cans of sweet ice tea, and a bunch of those cancer beef sticks too on his food stamps. I got to thinkin' wouldn't he be better of going to the market instead and buying a box of tea bags and a bag of sugar...woulda saved him (and the taxpayers, i.e. me) a bit of money and would of made his food stamps card last a bit longer. 
I dislike the fact that I have to be supper thrifty to afford any kind of food while those who are using the tax money I put into the system can buy treats and junk like it's going out of style. I understand people need to eat, and I'm glad we don't let folks just starve to death but I wish we could have more of a say of what's allowed to be bought with tax payer money. Good healthy food, not junk for instance. If I were desperate enough for food stamps I would be doing my best to get the most bang for the buck, so to speak and not be buying over priced junk food.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

NickieL said:


> I was awefully confused today when I was standing in line at the gas station behind a middle aged feller--- I was in there to buy gas, would never buy any of the expensive junk food in there with my own money let alone if I had food stamps. Well this feller ahead of me had bought two cans of sweet ice tea, and a bunch of those cancer beef sticks too on his food stamps. I got to thinkin' wouldn't he be better of going to the market instead and buying a box of tea bags and a bag of sugar...woulda saved him (and the taxpayers, i.e. me) a bit of money and would of made his food stamps card last a bit longer.
> I dislike the fact that I have to be supper thrifty to afford any kind of food while those who are using the tax money I put into the system can buy treats and junk like it's going out of style. I understand people need to eat, and I'm glad we don't let folks just starve to death but I wish we could have more of a say of what's allowed to be bought with tax payer money. Good healthy food, not junk for instance. If I were desperate enough for food stamps I would be doing my best to get the most bang for the buck, so to speak and not be buying over priced junk food.


That's part of the issue, the welfare is welfare for corporations and farmers JUST as much as it's welfare for people.


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## momof2 (Mar 28, 2003)

I find myself wondering if what I do is wrong. I have 7 adopted children, 2 sibling groups thus both special needs adoptions. Those kids all keep medicaid even after they are adopted. The "plan" was to put them on our insurance after they were adopted though. However, my husband of 15 years walked out one day never to return and left me with our 2 bio children and those 7 that weren't legally adopted yet. I have adopted them but CAN NOT pay for insurance. I, nor my 2 bio kids, had insurance. I kept the other 7 on Medicaid and even got my 2 on so that if we ever had an emergency we would have something to help. I don't use it except for the dentist or a real medical need! I am still uninsured eventhough I could qualify for Medicaid. I don't do WIC eventhough the little adopted kids qualify. Somehow it just feels wrong. I don't apologize for the Medicaid though, even if I don't like it, because my kids didn't ask for this situation and they shouldn't have to deal with medical issues or lack of dentistry because I can't afford it. When I had them or took them in I was in a totally different situation and NEVER in a million years saw this coming.

I homeschool but put 5 of them in school for a while last year. They were still foster children at that time and got a free lunch and breakfast. I still sent their lunch and I fed them before they went to school but the school let them eat breakfast again... they loved it! One lady in the office got snippy with me about lunch. Honestly, I sent it for the quality of the food but I didn't feel right using free lunch when we didn't NEED to. If I forgot their lunch one day then no big deal they ate but I didn't USE it. The schools, at least here, PUSH the free lunch on people and think you are insane if you don't use it... "it's there to use".

All of that to say... don't judge when you see someone using WIC, foodstamps or Medicaid. You never really know the situation. When my kids were foster kids they all used the local clinic (all foster kids do)... the only Medicaid around. I loved it there!!! They were the coolest people but honestly, it took me a while to not feel "funny" pulling up into the parking lot and getting out... it's right by the major road through town. I didn't want people to see ME using the "clinic". Now I don't care and I would be happy to have it. I am VERY blessed that a dr. friend of my late dad's sees me and all of the kids anytime that we need him. I only have to go to the clinic if he is too busy at the time. If you met me out you would never think I would have my kids on Medicaid. It has humbled me A LOT and taught me not to judge others. You never know when your life can fall apart and you can be in their place.


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## momof2 (Mar 28, 2003)

Forgot to mention this most insane thing..... Did you know that you are not ALLOWED to PAY for AllKids if your income level is too low??? Who knew that they won't LET you PAY THEM??? I begged for AllKids and was denied... thus my 2 bio kids being on Medicaid. That is crazy!!!!!!!

Instead of me paying for this low cost insurance and paying a co-pay for my dr. visits I just go for free. That makes tons of sense!


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

I think there are a lot of different reasons for the level of government dependence we have today. First, there is no longer any shame in it for most people. It used to be considered the ultimate failure, to not be able to provide for yourself or your family and have to accept welfare, or go on the dole as the Brits say. That stigma seems to be dying off with the older generation. Secondly, the private sector just flat didn't do a good enough job of helping. As a society too many of us were selfish or blind to the problems of others, and left enough visible need that the government thought it had to do something about it. And, right now, it's the economy. There are people on food stamps and other assistance that have college degrees. A whole lot of good paying jobs have been lost and it takes time for people to learn and adjust to a cheaper standard of living. People can't sell their house to get out from under the big mortgage they acquired when they had a good income, because the house isn't worth what they owe on it anymore. Yes, there are plenty of people milking the benefits just because they can, but there is plenty of real need out there, too.


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

There are several people who have jobs and are still on welfare for various reasons. Just because they get food stamps does not mean they are sitting on their butts watching TV and eating bon bons. 

I am trying to avoid getting too upset about these threads because it will do no good and I have enough stress in my life right now. There is no simple answer to the OP. I agree the most with Ernie and Hinton Lady. It's a combination of ignorance and the gov't wants us there. John Wayne said, "if you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow". Once the gov't had us where they wanted us, they then started indoctrinating as quick as they could.

I'm so thankful for this site and the kind and knowledgable people on it. Without this site I would still be hopelessly ignorant about so many things.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

elizaloo said:


> It's just infuriating that those of us who work get up every day, believing in the system while the sloths laugh their butts off sitting at home, waiting for their checks.


Not everyone receiving aide is a sloth. It is the majority that ruin the system. I do not like supporting those who make NO effort to support themselves, but there are some good folks out there that have fallen on hard times and need help. Most of those have paid into the system and are benefitting from it- it is not their plan to make it a permanent lifestyle.

If the government was to enforce strict time limits for receiving aide, those who need a hand-up would get temporary help and move on, while those who live off the system would be in trouble. Sadly, I am OK with that.


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## machinist (Aug 3, 2010)

Dr, Mom said:
"...what if we took personal responsibility to care for our friends and neighbors, to encourage them with a hand up, and use our knowledge and skills to mentor others to improve their lives."

I think that is where we will end up. Getting there will be a painful process. 

I've tried to do some of this, in the sense that I tried to warn people that they needed to provide for their own future emergencies. Nobody paid me any attention until they were on the skids. Experience is a rough teacher, but it is effective. 

I could give several examples of the above, but most of us have seen them. People who won't listen to good advice no matter what. My Dad told me: "Do your best to learn from the mistakes of other people--because you ain't gonna live long enough to make them all yourself". I try hard, but not always successful at that. Most people aren't trying to avoid the mistakes.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

olivehill said:


> You've been awfully serious lately so I'd like to inject some humor. Hopefully it doesn't get me in too much trouble.


lol

Not too serious because I didn't get chapped and think you meant me. Gosh, I hope you didn't. :nana:

I've actually been pretty calm and meditative IRL lately, more so than usual. I adjusted my internal attitude problem, or some such nonsense. I know people must be worried since I'm not wise cracking.:shocked:


I personally like food stamps, their value holds longer than postage stamps.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

umm I did not see it mentioned that the government is the biggest employer to date?

not too much different from the original examples if you ask me?

also seems that those on that end of the dole seem the most entitled with the biggest piece of the pie.

by passing out scraps they can justified the ends to their means.

but in the long run its a huge pig trap,bit of bait, bit of bait , bit of bait and shut the gate. 

can I say short and narrow sighted? YES I CAN. will it matter? doubt it. will I stand tall and strong? be assured yes Mine and I will! 

I say starve the beast, bleed the machine! I care not! 

there are those who after the death of the beast will posses the ideals and intent of our fore fathers and will reimplement that will. hopefully with safe guards against the atrocity committed in the guise of such.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

The news media makes itself feel good by "crusading" for the "disadvantaged." Calling onself "disabled" allows a host of advantages, mainly an excuse for not working. Social workers are there to make sure everyone files for everything they can possibly get. There are people who mis-use every possible available resource and let you know about it.
Just about everyone knows people who do this- there are simply so very many who are able to do everything they want from building to hunting for themselves yet are too disabled to work.
It makes people very jaded. You find yourself thinking "yeah, right" when what you are told so many times is patently disproved by what you see. And you might very well find yourself struggling to meet your obligations while others avoid their own at your expense.
From politicians, though social workers, schools and non-profits and news media, there is a social system/industrial complex. There is money for so many in this. The least is probably the recipients..........


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

You can blame it on the ones who take advantage and work the system, but you also have to acknowledge that there are a lot of people who need that system and are blessed to have it. 

We can say we should all take care of each other, but in the real world, it isn't like that. Families are struggling; business is struggling; churches are struggling; non-profit help organizations are struggling. How can they help when they are all over-burdened themselves. It's way too overwhelming now days.

With regards to social security; I thank God every month for my government when my social security check arrives! I thank God for Medicare! My husband and I would both be dead if it weren't for S.S. & Medicare and I don't feel enslaved to the government because of it. I feel thankful. Does it make me feel like I need to bow to the government? Of course not. I don't have to bow down or defend everything the government does just because I appreciate a few things about our government. But I do believe in giving credit where credit is due, even if it isn't perfect. 

Sure we had all those years to save for retirement; however, it just seemed more important at the time to keep a roof over the kids heads, clothes on their backs and food on the table, than to save for retirement instead. Gosh, we could barely save for an emergency, let alone retirement.

Boy I get fired up when people judge others about what they should or shouldn't have done in their lives. When you don't walk in others shoes, you may think you know it all, but believe me -- you don't have the slightest clue. 

If you don't need any help well God bless you! But then you have no idea how lucky you've been to have a good enough job, or lived in an area where there was work, and that your health held up to be able work to save for retirement. Not everyone has had that luxury.

For most people, it isn't about making bad choices or spending foolishly, it's about life taking you down paths that you would never hope for anyone to have to pass through and twists you wish you never had to face. You can say you've been down them, but none of us lived through someone else's life. The same set of circumstances is entirely different in different families and there really is no exact set of circumstances. Not all events/tragedies/challenges are the same -- not a single one. You're only looking in, you didn't live it.

I think someone should be darn proud if they got through raising their family and managed to sacrifice their own future so they _could_ manage to raise their family. That's not being irresponsible, it's a major life accomplishment and something they should be proud of; not put down for. 

Of course some are lazy, play the system, or will never be able to provide for their family. But we can't let those destroy it for the others who don't do those things. We can't group several into a whole. It isn't fair nor responsible to do so. We can't individually judge others who we don't even know. You can't see someone using food stamps for tea or jerky and pass judgment based on what you see. You have no idea why that man was doing that. There are a million reasons why that aren't bad reasons. Could he have just been irresponsible? Of course, but why do we always jump to the most negative conclusion? Why when we judge do we not give others the benefit of the doubt; rather we both judge and then condemn.


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## elizaloo (Jul 5, 2010)

shanzone2001 said:


> Not everyone receiving aide is a sloth. It is the majority that ruin the system. I do not like supporting those who make NO effort to support themselves, but there are some good folks out there that have fallen on hard times and need help. Most of those have paid into the system and are benefitting from it- it is not their plan to make it a permanent lifestyle.
> 
> If the government was to enforce strict time limits for receiving aide, those who need a hand-up would get temporary help and move on, while those who live off the system would be in trouble. Sadly, I am OK with that.



I confess to being completely cynical on this subject. My own life experiences are about hard work and self sufficiency. When my parents divorced and my mother (teaching at a small private school) qualified for 'welfare' - she took on a second job and went back to school for another degree. Imagine that, working full time teaching, grading papers, tutoring - working a second job, attending school full time AND raising 3 children. Without any sort of 'aid' from the federal government. She is my HERO.

In my professional life I see far too many people who are content to 'let' others care for them when a bit of boot-strap pulling up would place them in a position of caring for themselves. Alas, I don't see that happening any time soon. 

I WISH that there were some sort of overseer position for welfare. I wholeheartedly agree with a time limit. Use it as a LAST RESORT, not as a 'hey, i qualify for (fill in the blank) and I'm gonna get me some!" Go out and pound the streets looking for jobs. Apply everywhere. Move if you have to. 

I'm cynical and disgusted, resentful and frustrated because I have made life choices that leave me with the ability to support myself if the need ever arose (tho hubby does a good job of that :happy; and others make choices that force me to support them. 

I believe that without a return to personal responsibility and self dependency this county is headed for some serious trouble. Those that have made the gooberment (funny how those that utilize its services are the first to mock it) their source of income will suffer more than anyone of us who have property, food and resources. I donate time, food and money when I have it but don't come knocking on my door when the gooberment goes bust and you don't get your check on the 1st of the month.

PS - I have breast cancer - from what I've heard, it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get any sort of disability or 'aid' from the feds unless your doc wants to declare you ABD. Guess women with breast cancer could learn a few tricks from alcoholics and chronic drug abusers; every one I've ever seen gets disability up the wazoo....that's an absolute shame and glaring misfunction of aid if I've ever seen it.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

elizaloo said:


> PS - I have breast cancer - from what I've heard, it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get any sort of disability or 'aid' from the feds unless your doc wants to declare you ABD. Guess women with breast cancer could learn a few tricks from alcoholics and chronic drug abusers; every one I've ever seen gets disability up the wazoo....that's an absolute shame and glaring misfunction of aid if I've ever seen it.


Very sorry to hear that Elizaloo. My Mom is going in for a double masectomy in a couple weeks. It's her second round with BC so she figured it was time...

I wish you the best and hope treatment goes smoothly! :grouphug:


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

where I want to said:


> The news media makes itself feel good by "crusading" for the "disadvantaged." Calling onself "disabled" allows a host of advantages, mainly an excuse for not working. Social workers are there to make sure everyone files for everything they can possibly get. There are people who mis-use every possible available resource and let you know about it.
> Just about everyone knows people who do this- there are simply so very many who are able to do everything they want from building to hunting for themselves yet are too disabled to work.
> It makes people very jaded. You find yourself thinking "yeah, right" when what you are told so many times is patently disproved by what you see. And you might very well find yourself struggling to meet your obligations while others avoid their own at your expense.
> From politicians, though social workers, schools and non-profits and news media, there is a social system/industrial complex. There is money for so many in this. The least is probably the recipients..........


That's also not totally correct. Again, yes, some do work the system, but most do not. It isn't easy to get disability. It usually takes 2-3 years to finally get approved and you really do have to very well documented medical records to receive it.

Yes, you'll see people on disability building buildings or hunting. Many disabled people have good days they can do those things, but not on an ongoing basis. You also don't see is how they pay for it afterwards. You don't see the sleepless nights from pain or the inability to even move. Some can work like that for a week or month, then are unable to do a thing for weeks or months afterwards. They can't hold a job and no employer is going hire someone who only shows up for work when they are able. 

Remember also that, Social Security Disability has no short-term benefits and no 'Partial' disability. You either receive full disability status with full benefits or you don't.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

In the scheme of things all this really doesn't matter. This country is broke. And I think more than any thing the end of the story is, every one better prepare cause the gravy train is coming to a halt.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> Anyone working a job, or two or three... could find themselves in the soup line.
> 
> MANY people did during the great depression. I daresay they were harder workers (physical labor) than the vast majority of us on this board.
> 
> ...


AMEN!!!

We have been through 2 job losses in the past 8 years. Hubby has been at his current job for almost 6. When he first started he was getting a lot of overtime. 2 years ago when the economy started to fail his hours were cut. They are still not back. He averages 35 hours a week. They took away their benefits because they couldn't afford to pay them. They took away their vacation. So, he works for his check with nothing extra. I recently started a second part time job cleaning at night. Everything is going up except our income. We are barely hanging on. The kids are on Medicaid which is only used if necessary. I also did sign them up for lunches at school. I am not proud of this, but life can throw things at you that you never expect. You just have to work through them & do the best you can. I don't feel too bad because we aren't just sitting on our butts. We raise most of our food even though we qualify for food stamps we have not applied. I donate to the food pantry when we have extra & try to help others as much as we can. We don't drink, we don't smoke, we don't eat out, heck we don't even go out. We haven't been on a vaction since our honeymoon 21 years ago. Our kids have never been on a vacation.
Not everyone that gets assistance are bums.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

> I read it here and see it all around me everyday. People on foodstamps, people on WIC, people on heating fuel assistance, people on medicaid, people with housing assistance, free school breakfast and lunch programs, and more I can't think of right now.
> 
> Please someone tell me when this country turned away from "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.


If all you are seeing is this, then YOU need to get your head out of the sand. We've had more hits on our website, calls & emails from folks wanting to learn to live more self-sufficient. Why are there so many folks taking advantage of these gov't programs?? Because so many of our jobs have gone overseas (or in my case, being contracted out overseas.)




> If you're on unemployment, welfare, or any other form of government assistance then I am sympathetic to your cause. Let me help you slip that slave collar off your neck and we'll get you out under the fence while the guards aren't looking.


Thanks Ernie. It was either you or FR that told me, hey! you had a contract with the gov't that you've been paying into for a lot of years, let them start upholding their end of the deal.



> People are getting tired of carrying the weight of others on their back when the weight of their own family is all they can bear.


I totally understand where you are coming from, which is one of the reasons my family is now accepting FS. I have been of middle class income for over 35 years. My children are grown and only one still resides at home (and he doesn't know we're receiving FS). See my last comment about the gov't holding up their end of their deal.



> Maybe something as simple as an anger at high taxes leads them to think that they deserve a piece back. They pay in so perhaps they see accepting something such as wic as being justified. Maybe getting a little help eases restrictions on their budget.
> 
> 5. In the case of social security, some people pay in all their lives at the promise that they will be cared for so they expect the .gov to honor it's promise. Maybe a bit naive but a pretty basic expectation. It's called trust.


We're somewhere between 4 & 5. I just got approved for Soc Dec Disability benefits, gues that makes me even more 'evil'. Although if I could have had the money I paid in to Soc Sec to invest on my own, I'd be much better off today.



> but I get very, very upset with those whose irresponsible behaviour has put them in a position where they can't possibly EVER support their own families expecting to collect "benefits" long-term.


hmmm, I guess that would include me. I've worked so danged hard these past 35+ years that I have a wrecked body and can't possibly ever support my family or myself again. Then again, I have been paying into Soc Sec and the gov't told me that if I become disabled, they will give me benefits. It is a 2/3 cut in pay, but I'll take it and won't be made to feel bad about it.



> Are you kidding me? Social security was NEVER meant to be the end all be all for retirement. It was designed as a safety net for those who had no retirement. Maybe you don't realize this but you pay into social security. It is not welfare it is an EARNED and PAID for benefit by those that ACTUALLY Worked for a living.


Just how old are you? Yes, Soc Sec was touted as your retirement. This was before the day and age of 401(k) and IRA. And are You sure that all social security is given to folks that have worked? Me thinks not.



> "We should make the poor uncomfortable and kick them out of poverty." Ben Franklin


I love the quotes from our founding Fathers (and Mothers) The gov't of today isn't anything like it was set up to be.



> It's just infuriating that those of us who work get up every day, believing in the system while the sloths laugh their butts off sitting at home, waiting for their checks.


All I can say is, "As you are, I once was. As I am, you will never be." Or perhaps you will when the obama care really hits the hospital where you work and all of a sudden you are without a job. 



> Anyone crowing about all that "they've done and would do" who still work for someone else, really just don't understand their position in life.


*Like(1)*



> Before anyone pats themselves on the back and "how self-sufficient they are", get down on your knees and thank God for his blessing


*Like(1)
This!*

My husband and I do this daily. We are as self-sufficient as we can be and know it is only by the Grace of God.



> Just because they get food stamps does not mean they are sitting on their butts watching TV and eating bon bons.


I never did like bon bons  ... 

and if I'm sitting watching TV, then I'm also spinning, knitting or crocheting



> I'm cynical and disgusted, resentful and frustrated because I have made life choices that leave me with the ability to support myself if the need ever arose (tho hubby does a good job of that ); and others make choices that force me to support them


I hear you, my own mother raised 5 children, although she only worked one job and my older brother & I have been working for pay since we were 13 years old to help with the household bills.

It wasn't too long ago that I was cynical and disgusted and resentful and frustrated about those on gov't aid ... now I is one.



> It isn't easy to get disability. It usually takes 2-3 years to finally get approved and you really do have to very well documented medical records to receive it.
> 
> Yes, you'll see people on disability building buildings or hunting. Many disabled people have good days they can do those things, but not on an ongoing basis. You also don't see is how they pay for it afterwards. You don't see the sleepless nights from pain or the inability to even move. Some can work like that for a week or month, then are unable to do a thing for weeks or months afterwards. They can't hold a job and no employer is going hire someone who only shows up for work when they are able.
> 
> Remember also that, Social Security Disability has no short-term benefits and no 'Partial' disability. You either receive full disability status with full benefits or you don't.


If I garden for an hour in the morning, you better believe I have to take a nap in the afternoon ... my body just shuts down. I can barely walk the rest of the day and the next day is living hell. The only reason I'm awake right now is because the horses got out & i've spent the last 2 hours getting them rounded up.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

For the record, Cyndi is one of the most self-sufficient human beings I know and her husband could take a pile of rubble and throw together the Taj Mahal. 

So if she can get forced on the dole by the current economic circumstances, then ain't a dang one of us safe from it.

Her garden is productive, they've got livestock, and everyone there is a hard worker ... but what do you do when the government agents won't let you sell any of that and make a living off of your self-sufficiency? Sell handmade hats? Don't make me laugh. You're not going to compete with 10,000 Chinese *******. Selling meat, raw milk, or fresh eggs might keep you afloat until the health inspector comes around. 

Almost everything you can do for yourself is ILLEGAL so you're forced to scrape by. 

Take my advice, folks: Use whatever means you have available to put something aside right now, because life is about to get a whole lot more difficult. We just have to outlast the beast.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Can be very simple, people get Taxed everyday all kinds of ways, they figure they should be able to get their money back. They don't feel any guilt, they feel that it is theirs and it's there for the takeing.


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

MullersLaneFarm said:


> hmmm, I guess that would include me. I've worked so danged hard these past 35+ years that I have a wrecked body and can't possibly ever support my family or myself again. Then again, I have been paying into Soc Sec and the gov't told me that if I become disabled, they will give me benefits. It is a 2/3 cut in pay, but I'll take it and won't be made to feel bad about it.



Again, I believe in social welfare for those who find themselves in an unexpected situation, and who use it in order to better their long-term chances of being self-sufficient or self-supporting.

I don't, however, believe that people who find themselves in this kind of unexpected situation should continue to procreate, knowing that they can't afford to feed the children they have.


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## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

Te Socialist's plan that has been in the makings for over a hundred years is close to paying off...

Ask yourselves how did our past generations make it before there were government programs... 

The Socialists have had too much success before the people (some at least) started to wake up and see what they've been doing...

Now unfortunately we will have to take the big ride downhill into chaos, which is also part of the Socialist's plan...

Will we take up the slave's mantle for our daily ration (it's easier to go along to get along) or will we revert to our original God given freedoms?

This is part of the Socialist's test to see if they've "trained" the masses sufficiently to accept slavery (though it won't be called that) over freedom for the low, low price of a full belly...

What we can do now is reach out to others, our neighbors and be our own safety net. We can share our blessings with our neighbors...

The time of government gravy is coming to an end and the "shock" is intended to close the final chains around your wrists...

This culture of dependence on government instead of dependence on God has been purposeful...

Have we really gone that far that we would need government more than we need God?

Make no mistake, this is the true plan...

We still can make a difference, we can help our neighbor...

We can be the rock of faith when the coming storms cause the paniced masses run about looking for safe harbor... "They" plan to pose as the safe harbor and they have the current power and position to make it seem there's a chicken in every pot if only you will put your faith in government...

And many will believe this but for as many as you can, reach out to offer a true hand of faith. 

We need the sense of community with faith in God now more than ever. Give Him thanks and may God bless you all...


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Ernie said:


> For the record, Cyndi is one of the most self-sufficient human beings I know and her husband could take a pile of rubble and throw together the Taj Mahal.


Thanks Ernie. We do try hard around here. We wouldn't go hungry if we didn't have FS, but that $200 each month sure frees up that money to pay for other things, like feed for the animals.



> Take my advice, folks: Use whatever means you have available to put something aside right now, because life is about to get a whole lot more difficult. We just have to outlast the beast.


Amen and amen.

Giving up buying the small things (that cuppa java or bottle water, et al) and stick that money aside. You might be surprised how quickly that adds up. $5 here and there doesn't seem like much at the time but 10 to 20 $5 adds up quickly.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Ernie said:


> For the record, Cyndi is one of the most self-sufficient human beings I know and her husband could take a pile of rubble and throw together the Taj Mahal.
> 
> So if she can get forced on the dole by the current economic circumstances, then ain't a dang one of us safe from it.
> 
> ...


Good advice, Ernie! Everyone needs to remember and heed your words here...


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

Also, what about people who work for a living that never get a raise?? My husband hasn't had a raise in 3 years. He doesn't make near what most drivers should. BUT, it was the only job he could find when he was off work. He still looks, but there is nothing in the area & with feul so high it is hard to justify driving very far for work. Especially when he is driving a 1988 truck. Would like to upgrade to a newer one but just can't save any moeny to do so. Our debt to income ratio is too bad to get a loan even though our credit score is excellent. 
Some people need to get off of their highhorses. I know quite a few that think it can never happen to them. You can never be prepared for every possible thing no matter how hard you try. Life has a funny way of showing you that.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

Karen said:


> Boy I get fired up when people judge others about what they should or shouldn't have done in their lives.


I don't care what people do, but when it comes to money being taken from me by force, then my opinion counts.

None of it should be run by the government. As it stands, all welfare programs are nothing more than robbing Peter to pay Paul, regardless of the situation.

I would GLADLY agree to take the exact amount of money that is taken from me to go into these programs, and give it all to a local charity. 

It is not helping people to which I object, it is the ridiculous mismanagement of funds and abuse of the programs. As long as those funds are handled by the government, it will never change because they suck at everything they do.

Medicare and SS are a different subject. People pay into those. They are pyramid schemes, but again a completely different conversation than welfare.

I have had ZERO dollars. I have gone without eating so that my children could. We have been so broke we had to scrounge change, had no insurance, had to borrow a vehicle because our car got repossessed, all of it. We have since made choices that will prevent that from ever happening again.

If you are single, you can do just about anything to get by. If you have children, you had better have a plan in place so that you can take care of them, no matter what happens. Because quite frankly, it is not up to me to help you. I probably would if you asked, but to be given no choice in the matter is nothing more than theft.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Some people think they are the only ones having a rough time of it, right now. Don't they understand it is others who are having that same rough time that are paying for these benifits?
Times are tough all over. Me and dh are both disabled and we are doing OK.
We help others and are prepared for most any disaster. We did it by going with out, not by being victims.
I don't understand why I should feed some one elses livestock, I got many of my own to feed. I sell a few rabbits to feed them. That's how it is done.


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## elizaloo (Jul 5, 2010)

hintonlady said:


> Very sorry to hear that Elizaloo. My Mom is going in for a double masectomy in a couple weeks. It's her second round with BC so she figured it was time...
> 
> I wish you the best and hope treatment goes smoothly! :grouphug:


Thank you hintonlady - I am a year out of treatment (single mastectomy and chemo) and doing well. Please let you mom know that I will keep her in my thoughts while she undergoes surgery and followup. 

In relationship to the topic - I am so very very grateful for an understanding and supportive manager and health insurance. My treatment (including removal of my gallbladder that reacted badly to chemo) cost my well over 100k - and thankfully I my employer is self insured and treatment cost me a minimal amount of money. I well understand why people are bankrupted by an unexpected health emergency. 

While I wholeheartedly believe that no one should suffer financially because of an emergency, I am confounded as to where to draw the line regarding insurance for everyone. As referenced in my post above, why does the detoxing alcoholic on Medicaid get a free 3 week long stay in ICU only to repeat it every six months just cause he can......while an underemployed mom have to ration trips to the doc for her kids or HERSELF because she can't afford co-pays or fees?

Children, yes always. Adults? I'm cynical because of the abuse of the system I've seen and I'd kick out every drug addict and alcoholic from the program.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Some people will never understand the life of others. I could swear it isn't that they don't like how the system works, rather their just downright _*jealous *_that some have to work so others can live. 

Don't think for a moment it won't be you one day because it can be anybody now days. Only by the grace of God is it not you right now. People should stop taking all the credit or bragging about your great choices in life. It has nothing to do with it; you've simply been darn lucky so far.

Do I get annoyed at how some milk the system? Oh course I do. But if you look at other countries with either a privatized welfare system or none at all, I figure we've got it pretty good here in America and our system sure beats most others any day of the week.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

So when people admit they are taking advantage of the system, no one is supposed to say some thing.
I have been there, I still took care of myself.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

seedspreader;5130519
Before anyone pats themselves on the back and "how self-sufficient they are" said:


> Everything SS said.
> But we should ALL get down on knees and be greatful that FS exist!!
> What if it all went away??
> What would YOU do to save the child that was dying in your arms from starvation?? Seriously.. what would you do?
> ...


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## elizaloo (Jul 5, 2010)

Karen said:


> Some people will never understand the life of others. I could swear it isn't that they don't like how the system works, rather their just downright _*jealous *_that some have to work so others can live.
> 
> Jealous? Heck no and no again. I LOVE my job - with the medical issues I've LIVED through the last two years (one of which should have quite rightly killed me dead on the spot or left me in a complete vegetative state) I've had more than dozen people suggest I apply for disability. As long as I can get myself out of bed and do my job properly NOT GONNA HAPPEN. It's called self respect and a hard-core feeling that disability is ONLY for those that truly absolutely cannot work. And NOT because you want to start the day with a litre of vodka and/or a few snorts of your drug of choice.
> 
> ...


I agree, a privatized welfare system or Obama care scares the baloney out of me. But we have such abuse of the system NOW that there absolutely needs to be reform. A safety net, not a way of life.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Don't get me wrong. I despise the system of government assistance. I would prefer it not exist at all.

But it does and it will be around up until the point that our entire system goes bankrupt. I despise more the government's manipulation of the economic system to the point that even a self-sufficient homesteader can't afford to live. 

I don't think there are many (if any) welfare queens reading this forum. It is (mostly) a location for homesteaders, though that definition varies widely. The economic system is not collapsing evenly across the board ... parts of America, and specific skillsets, are finding themselves in TEOTWAWKI before others. So if you find yourself in that situation and the only way you can sustain is by taking the dole, then TAKE THE DOLE. 

My grandmother had a saying ... "Pride makes a thin soup." From here on out, it's about survival.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

This is my thought on this, wouldn't it be better to figure out a way to get along than to become dependant on it. They will find themselves much worse off, if it does come down.
Ernie, I am suprised.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I'm full of surprises. 

I can rail against the existence of a political system while simultaneously having sympathy for those forced to live under it.

I wish like heck I didn't ever have to work off-farm, but I do. My economic situation and the new global economy just doesn't allow for me to sit at home and sell knives and turnips.

Yes, if you're on government assistance than it's pretty much the last rung on the ladder of survival, but you'd better start looking for a way down. That system ain't going to last forever.


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## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

What about corporate welfare? If we are talking about what is worse, what about the dollars going to support the wealthy? How does that make any sense? Our system is messed up for sure but it sure isn't just one branch of the monster system in place. It is the middle class that is getting completely totally rolled over the coals, we don't get any poverty welfare and no corporate welfare, I suppose the government wants us to pick one or the other, most of us will just keep sinking down to poverty welfare is my guess.


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## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

Karen said:


> Some people will never understand the life of others. I could swear it isn't that they don't like how the system works, rather their just downright _*jealous *_that some have to work so others can live.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Let me ask you a question...In a time of economic collapse, or some type of apocalypse, who do you believe will die first? Those that have learned to work and provide for themselves through gardening, hunting, fishing, and prepping, or those that know how to pick up an assistance check and food stanps?


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I think it will be the prepper. First they will take every thing we have. Then start taking each other out.


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## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

SquashNut said:


> I think it will be the prepper. First they will take every thing we have. Then start taking each other out.


You may be right, but I will not go peacefully, or willingly.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

seedspreader said:


> Anyone working a job, or two or three... could find themselves in the soup line.
> 
> MANY people did during the great depression. I daresay they were harder workers (physical labor) than the vast majority of us on this board.
> 
> ...


Very true, and well said.:thumb:


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

In the county where I live, the newspaper keeps reporting that 2/3's of the population qualifies for food stamps. It is a stat trotted out to show the level of "hunger" in the county and why more needs to be done. Of course the 1/3 not qualifying is expected to pay for the 2/3rds I suppose. At the same time, obesity is declared to be an epidemic. The only skinny people must be those on meth.

Unemployment, which is basically a counting of those actually looking for work- not those avoiding it, is at a record high yet an immigrant who barely speaks English has no trouble finding work. And I'm grateful that they do otherwise I could never get my plumbing fixed. Not to mention an appliance repaired.
No- it is not easy to have reached the point of judgement that so much availablity of welfare is a real problem. It keeps people uninvolved who would take action to demand that their government protect workers if they were truly afraid of the consequences of not working. Used to be I worried about hurting some poor person's feeling. As of now I'm over it.
I will not be guilted out of speaking by half told stories. I will not weep for those who are determined to live life as a train wreck. 
It seems to me that this forum has a sizable number of people who join in government bashing while finding it OK to be supported by same. 
It is not luck that kept me employed for all but 6 months of my life. It was getting up every day and doing hard work. It was moving when my employer demanded it. It was overtime when asked and taking on other responsibilites as demanded. It was going to work with a pillow to sit on and using a turned over garabage can as leg rest when I was hurt. Or going to work on the day after I had all four wisdom teeth pulled and my jaw was so swollen I couldn't fit a straw between my teeth.
And watching other people do the same. My aunt crying in the bathroom at work because she was going blind and it was getting very hard to do the work but still had debt to pay, so she kept at it. Or my father's story of going door to door in the great Depression in order to drum up enough business so his boss could keep him employed. Or how he got work after being discharged at the end of WWII only to be called up for the Korean war and having to start over again. Or my mother inventing meals that were cheap and still tasty to get through the end of the month yet giving money to someone who called at the door she thought needed it. Or my grandfather working as a commercial artist from his wheelchair in the 1920-1940's. Or reading my sister's diaries after she died where she poured her heart out about being so having left home to work in another state for the first time. I remember one particulary sad time for my parents when they had just paid to move the household to another state for work only to have the employer tell my father he had to move again within a month. They simply did not have the money to pay for another move- so they spent the night in the basement after the kids went to bed smashing my mom's too large collection of knicknacks - I'm sure with the remains of any alcohol and much singing and release of aggrevation. I do remember helping sweep up the next morning. But they did what they felt was neccessary to keep the work.
It may be neccessary at time for some to get some extra help but it has become too accepted as normal. It has been sanitized and made OK.


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## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

where I want to said:


> In the county where I live, the newspaper keeps reporting that 2/3's of the population qualifies for food stamps. It is a stat trotted out to show the level of "hunger" in the county and why more needs to be done. Of course the 1/3 not qualifying is expected to pay for the 2/3rds I suppose. At the same time, obesity is declared to be an epidemic. The only skinny people must be those on meth.
> 
> Unemployment, which is basically a counting of those actually looking for work- not those avoiding it, is at a record high yet an immigrant who barely speaks English has no trouble finding work. And I'm grateful that they do otherwise I could never get my plumbing fixed. Not to mention an appliance repaired.
> No- it is not easy to have reached the point of judgement that so much availablity of welfare is a real problem. It keeps people uninvolved who would take action to demand that their government protect workers if they were truly afraid of the consequences of not working. Used to be I worried about hurting some poor person's feeling. As of now I'm over it.
> ...


Testify Brother, TESTIFY!!


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## Guest (May 15, 2011)

AR Cattails said:


> Please don't look down your nose at everyone on government assistance in the same vein as you might those who have used it generation after generation.
> 
> I am not on government assistance right now but trying to make it month after month is getting harder and harder and I don't know how much longer I can go on.
> 
> ...


Your situation isn't a great deal different than mine.



SquashNut said:


> I think giving to the food bank is great, but some people I know even play that system.
> One guy I knows goes to every one in the 2 towns here. Must one place every day that he goes to now. But he spend his welfare cash on beer and pot. He is disabled but still seems wrong.
> We give to the food bank when we have extra.


The region where I am implemented a new computer system to circumvent all the people who were doing that (which was a LOT of them).

With the new system, all the food pantries tie into it, and when someone comes in for food assistance, a quick check of the system database reveals where and when that person/family has gotten assistance. 



earthkitty said:


> It is not helping people to which I object, it is the ridiculous mismanagement of funds and abuse of the programs. As long as those funds are handled by the government, it will never change


Boy do I ever agree with that!


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

SocialAnarchist said:


> Let me ask you a question...In a time of economic collapse, or some type of apocalypse, who do you believe will die first? Those that have learned to work and provide for themselves through gardening, hunting, fishing, and prepping, or those that know how to pick up an assistance check and food stanps?


I would like to add pushing paperwork to those who take aid primarily to support themselves. Many jobs today are just that. Paperwork! They serve no useful purpose in a TEOTWAWKI scenario. I agree we live in a society where an economic system keeps us all alive, properous, fat and sassy. Hard skills, homesteader skills are a good thing, if anything for the comfort it gives our minds. Keeps you on a more level playing field with Murphy. Of course if he strikes with a vengence you can add anyone to the doomed list that's also unlucky. Cheers.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

morningstar said:


> What about corporate welfare? If we are talking about what is worse, what about the dollars going to support the wealthy? How does that make any sense? Our system is messed up for sure but it sure isn't just one branch of the monster system in place. It is the middle class that is getting completely totally rolled over the coals, we don't get any poverty welfare and no corporate welfare, I suppose the government wants us to pick one or the other, most of us will just keep sinking down to poverty welfare is my guess.


An excellent point. IMO this is a much bigger problem than individuals receiving benefits, and it contributes to it. Consider that Walmart received 50 billion dollars of taxpayer money in 'corporate welfare' and subsidies. Never mind that it cost the taxpayer ( the WORKER ) x amount of his hard earned money to be funneled directly to a billion dollar corporation. Also consider the consequence this has upon the market;

A family owns a small store that competes with Walmart for many products...they received nothing. They are forced to scrap it out on the free market, and are bound by the laws of supply and demand. Walmart gets a 'leg up' on competition. How can mom and pop compete with a company that is subsidized by their own tax dollars!? Pretty soon the small independents fold and go to work at Walmart for 7 dollars an hour....and BTW, they were able to lobby for a 'waiver' from the new health care laws so thats one less expense they have that Mom and Pop do.

In the above scenario, not only do we lose tax money, but we lose our businesses, our jobs, our livable wage and are all one big step closer to being on the dole.


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

Good point, Kirk. I've always wondered why companies with HUGE PROFITS can qualify for governmental help. Didn't know Wallmart got grants. It's not like they're doing research into something that might brenefit us all. I don't like how the oil companies and nuclear power companies keep getting funds, too, but at least they're investing some of their own money to develop 'alternative' methods as well. Things that might help us in the longrun for our economics and way of life, but Wallyworld? Why? What are they doing? Personally, I avoid Wallyworld like the plague. But that's for another thread...


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## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

AverageJo said:


> Didn't know Wallmart got grants.


I didn't know Walmart got government subsidies either. Please explain what kind. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this similar what the socialist media is saying about the oil companies now?

The media is playing that if an oil company drills a dry well and claims it as a business loss and they deduct it from taxable income then that it's a subsidy. But if the company where you work has a business loss and they deduct it as a business loss they "currently" aren't claiming your company is receiving a subsidy.

The Socialists are on a warpath with PROFITS. Profits are what's left over from sales after expenses. They want your tax money and first they start with oil companies, and the Walmarts. Just be ready when they want to take away your subsidy as in mortgage deduction or child tax credit.

Oh wait, they are already talking about these. If your child is fat then you lose your tax deduction. The pattern here is "lose tax deduction"

If Walmart is really receiving a "subsidy" please elaborate and I'm with you on that. If Walmart or the oil companies, or your business are simply deducting business expenses then I have to disagree.

Now the only truly fair system I support is a real flat tax. Simple, just 10% of your income with no deductions and no excuses. We all pay a fair share. You make 10,000 a year = $1,000 tax or 10,000,000 = 1,000,000 tax. We ALL participate in funding the government. Too many people aren't paying taxes so it's easy (if you are not paying) to support more programs that make more dependent people.

One thing I believe we should do is make most government assistance a loan. You may get a check but you have to repay it or work for it. A past Senator from NC, Lauch Faircloth said it best. Workfare not Welfare...


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

I'm interested to know if anyone here who is totally against Food Stamp use and claim to be self-sufficient, are on social security... or plan to receive social security?

As you know, I've stated and shown before that the greater percentage of people who receive social security checks, receive back more than they paid in... and yes that includes interest, which has been almost nil in the past 10 years.

So, unless you are not accepting that check, you're on the "dole" whether you believe it or not.

Because if this all falls apart, you won't get your check just as quickly (or perhaps even quicker, because it's a big motivator to vote for those who want to continue deficit spending) as the FS recipient. 

So, for those who are on SS and are "self sufficient", I'm interested to know what that means by your definition? Does it mean for all your sustenance that you don't use that money?

For those who have a retirement plan that includes SS, can you tell me how that works? Heck, even if you have a 401K like I do, are you planning on receiving payments out of it? 

I've got a feeling that in this paper-money world that there are going to be a lot of people who are surprised at their retirement, or in the case of an emergency when they go to pull out their "savings".

Let's just say I'm a bit dubious unless you've got it in hand, and in hand in something that doesn't decrease in worth based off the actions and plans of power-brokers.

So with that said... again, please explain your plan to always be self sufficient, I think there are some lessons we can learn from it. 

The system is such a web, that almost everyone in America participates in it, whether willingly or not.


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## Guest (May 15, 2011)

In our form of government the people vote for the officials. The officials are at least as concerned with getting re-elected as with governing well so they do what they think most of the people want. As attitudes toward entitlement programs have changed the pollitions have voted in more and more of the entitlements in the hopes that the voters will re-elect them. We have now reached the point where the gov is going broke trying to fund all of them. This is what will destroy the US.

An axiom from history is that a democracy only lasts 200 years. We have beat that but the end is in sight.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

CONCERNING CORPORATE WELFARE:

Every corporation that is successful on a massive scale works the system just like the most talented 3rd generation welfare recipient. 

This system is deep and entangles all of us in it's nettles, and people cry for more entanglement all the time. 

Sometimes they aren't even aware they are doing it because it comes in the form of... "We should make everyone who receives food stamps eat this certain food, be this certain weight, and do this a certain way, because it's our (collective) money."

Interestingly enough, a lot of people who make that claim make so LITTLE money that they effectively don't pay income taxes.

Now some of you will see this as an endorsement for the system as it is, but it isn't. My wish is for everyone to be more capable than they are right now and to be more "self-sufficient" (but that's a deceptive term, for any honest man). But everyone draws a line where that is, for themselves.

I hear people talk about how self-sufficient they are in one thread and then complain about if their Social Security gets cut. Well which is it?

I hear others talk about how "self-sufficient" they are, and both spouses work jobs outside of the house for someone and send the kids to the public school on the public school bus.

I hear others talk about how "Self-sufficient" they are, and they buy the vast majority of their food from the grocery store.

I hear people talk about how "Self-sufficient" they are and they earn their money on the internet, selling something that has almost zero local market.

Self-sufficiency is an ambiguous term, as is homesteading.

An honest man recognizes we live in an interconnected world of many people and that, if we are faithful to the belief of our fore-fathers, that we need government, but that we need a strong local government and a weak federal government.

These problem's that we see on here, are exacerbated by the fact that there is a big, anonymous government somewhere dealing with the situation that you and I won't deal with. 

We've absconded our responsibility to them, and then complain that they don't know the truth about "my neighbor who abuses the system", and then furthermore, we ask them to create more laws.

I always get a kick, also, out of everyone who says... "The church should and local charities should fill this position", and then think that they've done their part because they put a $20.00 bill in the plate when they visited church last Easter.

I'd bet that a little human compassion might just seep into your soul if you spent a little time at a homeless shelter. 

Would you be willing to trade your tax rate, let's say you work 40 hours a week (lucky you if that little) and you pay 20% taxes into this big government structure. Are you willing to give 8 hours a week to your local church and charity, SERVING (not just attending)?


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## Guest (May 15, 2011)

seedspreader said:


> I always get a kick, also, out of everyone who says... "The church should and local charities should fill this position", and then think that they've done their part because they put a $20.00 bill in the plate when they visited church last Easter.


Don't get me started on THAT subject. :grumble:

Ok, yes, there ARE some churches doing what they're supposed to be doing, but far too many of them are too concerned with how pretty and elegant their buildings can be, and think an occasional food drive for the local food bank, or a fund raiser for a missionary project means they're doing their part.

My mother and I got all excited when a church opened about a half-block from the homeless shelter, which we learned about from one of the homeless shelter volunteers. The volunteer was going to church there and was trying to work with the pastor to develop an out-reach program for the residents of the shelter.

We were gung-ho and ready to work with them to get something going. Well, that didn't last long. The pastor and his wife said they didn't want "those people" coming around.

Not surprising that church folded after just a few months.

What a golden opportunity they missed. And they'll have to answer for it.

Sorry, :hijacked: I get so mad when I see stuff like that happen.


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## eatmorelk (Dec 23, 2010)

To all the people who make deposits into the system so I can make withdrawels,I say thank you very much.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

I cannot speak to the exact subsidies that WalMart receives, but I can speak to some common ones that large corporations (in general) get.

*PILOT Agreements* - This is an acronym for *p*ayment *i*n *l*ieu of *t*axes. this means that the large company or retailer agrees to make a one time payment in order to avoid paying taxes for a certain period of time. The agreement is always in the businesses favor because they ultimately pay less in taxes than they would have without the agreement.

Many big businesses receive property tax breaks that allow them to pay taxes as though the land that their structures are on is just bare land. While the rest of us see a tax increase if we add a shed, they can build a 50,0000 square foot store and just pay the taxes on the land.

In some states, there are special programs to gift companies with money for improvements if those improvements create new jobs. Many of these companies create a "new" division of the company and then "hire" the old employees. Not a single job created, but they received free money to upgrade the facilities.

These are just a few of the programs and scenarios that I have seen play out in my area. It would take all day to document some of the ones that I've heard of in other states.


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## Guest (May 15, 2011)

Martian Chick knows what she's talking about. 

I follow the news for city, county, and states doings, and yes, they subsidize the big businesses every which way, but don't do anything to help the small ones.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

The premise of the thread appears to be "put down those that take help" of any type.

Self- sufficiency is being held up as the golden, "Look what I did, why aren't the lower folks doing the same." etc, etc, etc.

Just remember - this is SURVIVAL (sometimes a help has to be done) and 
EMERGENCY PREP (that can mean store bought cans of stuff, or nothing at all except knowledge and anything in between).

And for all the saying how "self sufficient" they are..... I wonder how well you'd do if your job, your house, your paperwork, your gardens, your spouse were blew away in one big storm. Or flood, etc.

Don't get to proud of yourself, you may be brought down by Murphy, or Karma, or whatever else that does these leveling events.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

So let me give my definition of self-sufficiency.

A sea captain may not provide everything he eats and needs, but through his labors he provides enough product to purchase everything else he needs. The old time blacksmith may or may not have had a garden and livestock, but nobody could say he wasn't a self-sufficient man. His craftsmanship meant a steady supply of trade goods.

If you can provide for yourself through your own labors then you are indeed self-sufficient.

There are three things I would advise people not to put faith in:

1. The government - it does not have your best interests at heart and will let you down or even sacrifice you if it feels some advantage to doing so. Ask the folks living in flooded region of Lousianna how they feel about being sacrificed to save New Orleans. The government is also unsustainable in its present form and is nearing collapse. 

2. The just-in-time supply chain - Primarily here I'm talking about the grocery stores. I doubt there's anything at all within your nearest grocery store that was produced within 300 miles of you. It arrives on trucks two to three times a week to restock the shelves. There is no vast warehouse of supply. Any disruption at all in the supply chain will mean those shelves become empty very fast. Whether it means buying your food from local farmers or you're producing your own, you need to get away from the JIT system.

3. A wage job - The average homesteader has more love for their chickens than the corporation has for its employee. As soon as you're not profitable, or they think they can squeeze more profit out of an Asian in another country, then you'll find yourself in the unemployment line so fast it will make your head swim. If all of the money you have comes from a corporation then you're in a very shaky situation.


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## Guest (May 15, 2011)

Ernie said:


> So let me give my definition of self-sufficiency.
> 
> A sea captain may not provide everything he eats and needs, but through his labors he provides enough product to purchase everything else he needs. The old time blacksmith may or may not have had a garden and livestock, but nobody could say he wasn't a self-sufficient man. His craftsmanship meant a steady supply of trade goods.
> 
> If you can provide for yourself through your own labors then you are indeed self-sufficient.


There ya go.

There's not a person in the world can supply ALL their own needs on their own land.

It would be possible to produce extra of something, and barter for what you can't produce. That was a common practice for millennia, and I suppose it still is in some parts of the world.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Yes!

Our problems today come from the fact that we look around and there is no bartering community for the homesteader to hook into. Aside from the somewhat ludicrous farmer's market, where can you take the extra you produce to acquire what you need?

We are forced by our current economic system to convert our production into worthless Federal Reserve Notes which we must then use to purchase goods from the corporations. Meanwhile, the goods we can produce are either imported for cheaper than we can even get raw materials for, or in the case of many agricultural products, outlawed completely.


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## C_Brice (Oct 14, 2008)

I'm not gonna touch on Corp. Welfare in this thread. 2 completely different issues with 2 completely different sets of pros/cons. You may think both are bad but to use corp. welfare as an excuse to not solve issues with individual welfare is backwards. 

There is a local radio host that stated the other day that a vast majority of welfare recipients are good, smart, hardworking folk and that only a small percentage of people are truly lazy and dumb. I'm in the camp that thinks that is completely 180 from the truth and that most are either dumb, lazy or both. Now this is not to say that only the poor have have cornered the market on being dumb and lazy. There are plenty of folk in all income brackets that fill that description. But I've seen with my own eyes the truth. You go to any public assistance housing apartments, walk the streets in the afternoon, visit walmart during normal working hours, go to McDonald's at lunch, etc etc and it's very very obvious which folk are more than likely on assistance. You can also tell why fairly quickly. Call it profiling if you want and it's not 100% foolproof but it's accurate a vast majority of the time. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck it's a duck. Let's stop being so PC and call it like it is. Some are that way because they are raised in a culture that lives that way and they think it's normal and perfectly fine. Some are a product of genetics. Some were raised in good stable homes but for whatever reason they were DUMB and made severely bad choices and usually compounded them with more and more bad choices. Some are morally corrupt and yes, there are those that are just truly unlucky and a product of the times. They may dream about being out of the hole but they rarely do anything to try to get out. The ones that try usually get out. I've seen what happens to folk with 1/2 of a brain that try, and I mean really try, to get out of the hole and 90% plus succeed. It may not happen over night but it does happen.

Now don't take my stance as being against welfare. I think a people that offers a helping hand to those that find themselves in a tight spot, due to no fault of there's, is great. But to reward people for making multiple bad choices, being morally corrupt, being lazy, etc etc is the worst idea ever created. It's bad for those people, it's bad for their kids and it's bad for our culture. It, along with many other things, will be our down fall. I think that the human sole is very powerful and when you force people to survive they usually are better off in the long run. The old teach a man to fish thing. I believe that trying to be "compassionate" by trapping people into welfare is not compassionate at all. 

We need time limits for government assistance.
We need mandatory testing for drugs, alcohol and tobacco. One strike and you are out.
We need to stop sending manufacturing jobs over seas.

Now some here might take offence. I'm not saying these people are bad people at heart. But there is an old saying in poker that says "if you look around the table and can't spot the fish (bad player) you are more than likely it". Look around the table, if you don't like what you see don't blame others, don't blame dumb luck.

CB


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Natural born slaves always seek out a master. The govt. makes an excellent master, taking care of his subjects every need, asking for just one little thing in return, a vote, to keep them in power. I know people I went to school with that were on relief, they got on it while in or right out of high school.... their children are on it now... Couple years ago, I was visiting at the hospital, and in the waiting room was the grandkids of the dairy farmer I worked for years ago... they were seeing their prenatal doc... neither were married, this was #3 for each... they were playing a guessing game who the daddy might've been... some of the men were "familiar" with both girls, er, women, er (words I can't say on a family forum.... but it sounds like those chocolate chip marshmallow 'smores' bars).

In the real world, where Uncle Sam wasn't there 'daddy'.... these tramps would either go the straight and narrow, marry and settle down..., starve to death, or live in a house of ill repute. No self respecting decent human would support such abhorrent behavior....

Widows and orphans, yes.... tramp spawn, no. If I didn't breed em, I'm not feeding em. Find the biological father, and make him pay for him... miss two payments, and lose a chi chi... miss another two, and lose the other one. Miss another one, and it's chain gang time. I think carefree welfare sex would quickly dry up...


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

Nobody explains it better than Texican.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

(My answer to the origional question)

For the most part, an abandonment of Biblical principles by society in general, and also by the government they install (which over time leads to liberalism and the government claiming/acting to be God).


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## SocialAnarchist (Mar 23, 2011)

AngieM2 said:


> The premise of the thread appears to be "put down those that take help" of any type.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again, major points to take from this:

1) Absolutely, there are legitimate people that need a helping hand. Some short term til they get on their feet, and some long term because of disability.

2) Legitimate need is understandable, scammers, liars, cheaters, and multi-generational welfare families are not.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

I didn't see Angie name anyone specific in her post.
And just how would you survive if your preps were blown away in a tornado? You may have insurance, but how would you survive until that insurance paid out? That could be months if it was a huge disaster. You might think you have all bases covered but I will tell you that somewhere there is something you haven't thought of. Don't get too comfy thinking you will never need help.


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## C_Brice (Oct 14, 2008)

Wendy said:


> I didn't see Angie name anyone specific in her post.
> And just how would you survive if your preps were blown away in a tornado? You may have insurance, but how would you survive until that insurance paid out? That could be months if it was a huge disaster. You might think you have all bases covered but I will tell you that somewhere there is something you haven't thought of. Don't get too comfy thinking you will never need help.


Real simple. I have family, friends, a church, community and credit. If you don't have those things I feel for ya but why should I take feed, college tuition, gas money, etc outta my pocket? 

If you think I would be a great guy for doing those things than, well, great. If you think you or anyone else is entitled to those things than (edited out language) . Big difference between being greatful and feeling entitled and far too many feel entitled. 

CB


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> Real simple. I have family, friends, a church, community and credit. If you don't have those things I feel for ya but why should I take feed, college tuition, gas money, etc outta my pocket?
> 
> If you think I would be a great guy for doing those things than, well, great. If you think you or anyone else is entitled to those things than (edited out language) . Big difference between being greatful and feeling entitled and far too many feel entitled.
> 
> CB


Real simple equals not as simple as you like to think.
Gee, I have family, friends, church, & credit too. Thing is, all of us live near each other so if there was a huge disaster it would affect us all. What if a tornado killed everyone in your family? It could happen. Credit won't mean a thing if the dollar collapses & banks go under. 
I never said I felt entitled to anything. I know for a fact that we are eligible for food stamps. In fact it would amount to around $600 a month for us. If I felt entitled then I would have applied for them every time they try to shove it down our throats when I re-certify for the kids health coverage. We have health coverage on the kids, that's it. That being said they never go to the doctor. Couldn't tell you the last time one of them was sick. We did have a broken arm several years ago. Big families don't automatically equal huge medical bills. They do use it to get their teeth cleaned twice a year. This year is the first year because up until now we kept them at our regular dentist & paid out of pocket because he does not accept the state coverage. We finally had to go somewhere that would as we just can't afford it this year. My husband's income dropped about $8,000 last year. This year is not looking any better. I picked up 2 part-time jobs to help out. If you would have asked us 8 years ago if this is where we would be now, we would have said no way. Things happen. You can not ever be 100% prepared for everything.
Even as hard as we struggle, we can always find someone in worse shape than us. We always help people as much as we can. That may be with extra eggs or garden produce, our time, or money if we have it. We do this because God told us to do this. 
"Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me."
Yes, some take advantage of others. I will let God sort them out in the end. It's not for me or you to judge who is worthy & who isn't. You will never know the entire story by looking at someone getting assistance.


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## C_Brice (Oct 14, 2008)

Wendy said:


> a fact that we are eligible for food stamps. In fact it would amount to around $600 a month for us.


I have no idea your circumstances but I will say that my belief is that if welfare is the law of the land and available than you should take it. Doesn't mean to abuse it or revolve your life around the $$$ showing up every month but use it. 

My belief comes from this: Sen. Charles Grassley, IA was once asked if he would vote for term limits. He answered yes and he had in the past. The reporter asked why he was running for another term then(4th or 5th)? Grassley answered that as long as term limits were NOT in place than he would be a disservice to the state to limit only himself to that standard. And he's right. In the power struggle of Washington D.C. you gain power in time and for him to just throw any advantage out the window when no one else is would be dumb. All this is paraphrasing of coarse.

Reconsider not taking advantage for they won't reconsider taking your or your kids money in the future will they? To not take assistance when it's available is a disservice to you or any member of your family forced into paying past, present or future. 

I've been forced into paying enough that given the chance I'll take what I can back. But I'll vote against it and condemn it till my last breath.

CB


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

Take it so we can be attacked for sucking off the system?? I don't think so. We raise most of our food. Food stamps don't pay for what I buy at the store which is mostly toiletries. Yes, it would free up money for other things, but I do not feel like we need it. Not yet anyway.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

This morning on my local news. Man wins 2 Million in the Lottery, still uses his food stamps, because it's fair because the Goverment took out Taxes from his winnings.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

SocialAnarchist said:


> I expect to be soundly blasted for this topic and half expect it to be banned but I am giving it a shot anyways.


I just love it when a controversial topic leads to someone having "banned" under their screen name. :goodjob:


Reminds me of when I got blasted for telling people not to get too wrapped up in controversial topics started by people with low posts or new join dates. :smack


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention. NOT!

there were other unseen issues.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Sorry Angie, I must have picked the wrong day to stop being serious...


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

naw - you're okay. Just a sore spot. It was a rough weekend.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

I know better! 

We need to make a collection for you to go on vacation, or escape or...


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## Ruby (May 10, 2002)

NickieL said:


> I was awefully confused today when I was standing in line at the gas station behind a middle aged feller--- I was in there to buy gas, would never buy any of the expensive junk food in there with my own money let alone if I had food stamps. Well this feller ahead of me had bought two cans of sweet ice tea, and a bunch of those cancer beef sticks too on his food stamps. I got to thinkin' wouldn't he be better of going to the market instead and buying a box of tea bags and a bag of sugar...woulda saved him (and the taxpayers, i.e. me) a bit of money and would of made his food stamps card last a bit longer.
> I dislike the fact that I have to be supper thrifty to afford any kind of food while those who are using the tax money I put into the system can buy treats and junk like it's going out of style. I understand people need to eat, and I'm glad we don't let folks just starve to death but I wish we could have more of a say of what's allowed to be bought with tax payer money. Good healthy food, not junk for instance. If I were desperate enough for food stamps I would be doing my best to get the most bang for the buck, so to speak and not be buying over priced junk food.


How do you know he even had a place to cook the tea. If I'm not mistaken now the homeless can get food stamps. I know it use to be you had to have a place to cook. But if they are homeless they probably don't have anywhere to make the tea.


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

The MO legislation that is being voted on(or was voted on this past week, I can't remember) is for TANF, not food stamps. The legislation is something like DFS can test for drugs, and if you test positive you have to go to rehab to keep your benefits. Your children will still get the benefits through a 3rd party. It isn't food stamps though, it's the actual money that they give out.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

that's true many have nowhere to go to cook so a bag of sugar or whatnot is useless to them. you know i remember many years ago my father use to tell us many people are only a paycheck away from the dole(that's what it was called then) we girls were small and wanted to know why he was going out again on a cold winters night. he was taking wood, food and whatnot to some people in the town(village).

i'd like to think too it wouldn't happen here to me but stuff happens. i worked at the food bank,soup kitchen,meals on wheels etc. we had former lawyers,doctors etc. that had fallen on hard times for one reason or another. i had a friend who's wife had cancer a second time and in no time all of his RRSP,savings etc. was eaten up. he is now on assistance. lost his home etc. he never thought in a million years it would happen to him.

i got a bit in a teacup and health insurance .bit of grub put by but every time i get the medical care plan bill it seems it has gone up 5 or so dollars. then there's gas ,food etc. i dont know how some people keep going.

i was out yesterday and coming out of the pharmacy to go to my car i met this kid. well to me he was a kid.we've had rain here like most of you for a month and he was like a drowned rat. and shivering. he asked me if i had just enough for him to get a bite to eat. i gave the boy 20 dollars.he was so thankful you just knew in your heart it wasn't a scam. mc. was right there and i watched him and that's where he went . i know he did because i went in afterwards myself.i wish i'd brought him home to my nice warm house. thought about it all night. but i do live alone. no need to take too many chances i guess.way back in my fathers time when he was helping people you wouldn't think twice about bringing someone in by the fire. i've seen my mother feed some people that dad had brought home. anyway i'm going back there tomorrow and just look around and see if anybody knows his circumstances. ~Georgia.


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