# Animal Control Showed Up



## Bubba1358 (Nov 6, 2013)

So yesterday morning, I'm minding my own business, when into the driveway pulls the county animal control. The officer said she received a call from someone about a thin, bony cow tied to a tree.

I have a Jersey who calved on Saturday, and yes - she was tied to a tree for about 2 hours to graze the last wisps of grass. I then moved her to a T-post in a different section of yard, and finally back to the barn to be with the calf. This is when AC arrived.

She got out, and was originally looking for someone who doesn't live here anymore. I get mail for them occasionally. The only thing I know about them is that they ran a Shi-Tzu (sp?) puppy mill in the shed. So, maybe there was already a "record" for this property.

Anyway, the AC lady got out, looked around, saw my cow (who, comically, had a giant mouthful of hay when AC went back to see her. She said they looked great, and that people often mistake dairy cow for malnourished or thing cows. Especially, I guess, here in Middle TN, where it's almost all beef cattle and meat goats. She commented that the water I had for the cows was cleaner than most dog water she sees.

So today, the "livestock" expert comes by to take a look at everything, and take pictures for the "case." He mentioned that they've received several calls this year about just-freshened animals (cows and horses) looking thinner than usual. He took pics of the cows, but also my pigs, sheep, and chickens.

Anyway, the whole thing has me pretty ticked off. There's now a "case" on file somewhere with a list of my animals. I mean, they're plainly visible from the street, but to have a "record" makes me pretty irritated. They closed the case already, and the livestock AC guy said that most people misunderstand the complexion of dairy animals. he apologized for my inconvenience.

Has this happened to anyone else here? How'd you deal with it?


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Not to us, but we had a guy renting a field down the street who got it big time. He had beef cattle that he was underfeeding to the point that they were foraging the branches off the roadside weeds and someone called the sheriff. Upon inspection there were three or four dead lying in the field and a few that had to be shot.

He was forced to get hay and have the herd checked by the sheriff every day. He did it for a bit and then moved them to the next county over and did the same thing. They locked him up on charges.

What nobody can figure is that he has had the money and could easily have afforded the hay and lost money in the deaths. At first, he was given the benefit of the doubt because he has a couple other chicken houses and had lost his wife a couple years back. After his move and repeat performance he has ZERO sympathy from anyone.

Malnourished horses are somewhat common around here from people getting in over their heads.

If I was in your shoes, I might be annoyed but then go on the offensive and REQUEST a repeat check in three months. Why? Because then the next time a nosy neighbor tries to foment trouble they will get edumacated by animal control and further complaints by them against others dismissed as crank. (The technique is simple akido, where you use the energy and weight of an opponent to allow the opponent to become off-balance and fall on their own, or wear themselves out to the point that you win by default with little or no effort.)


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

No, but I can sure imagine how upsetting it would be. Sorry, you had to go thru this.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Not about cows. I'm in upper east TN. I had two horses, one of which was thirty some years old with no teeth. Gave to us as a friend for my younger horse. Old buck just couldn't keep weight on him even with senior feed and mashes, etc. He always looked rough. His mane and tail turned solid gray, and he had been a bay.
So animal control shows up, saying someone up the road saw him and because he looked so bony, called them. The guy saw my other sleek, sassy ten year old horse, looked in bucks mouth and at his hooves, checked to see that we had horse feed, laughed about how stupid the woman had been, apologized, and left.
Kinda weird that they took pics of your other animals. We had dogs and cats, and he didn't do anything with them, or mention us having a case now.


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## Bubba1358 (Nov 6, 2013)

handymama said:


> Kinda weird that they took pics of your other animals. We had dogs and cats, and he didn't do anything with them, or mention us having a case now.


The first lady saw our dog, and requested his rabies shot certificate. Which of course I provided on the spot.



Harry Chickpea said:


> If I was in your shoes, I might be annoyed but then go on the offensive and REQUEST a repeat check in three months. Why? Because then the next time a nosy neighbor tries to foment trouble they will get edumacated by animal control and further complaints by them against others dismissed as crank. (The technique is simple akido, where you use the energy and weight of an opponent to allow the opponent to become off-balance and fall on their own, or wear themselves out to the point that you win by default with little or no effort.)


Not a bad idea. Of course, the downside is that the neighbors see the AC truck outside my house AGAIN.....

Thanks. The second guy, after seeing the pigs, started joking about it all with me.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

Our Rottweiler ran to meet the AC guy, so I know he saw her. He petted her. Maybe our AC just isn't very thorough by comparison?


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

If it were me, I'd forget it. I have better things to occupy my brain.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Some do-gooder who doesn't know a thing about livestock called them. Your beef is with them, not the AC people just doing their job and responding to the complaint. It must have been irritating to have them checking out all your animals and taking photos, but in the long run it's to your advantage, it's on the record now that your critters are well cared for. 

At least they have some staff to look into complaints. Near us, there were some horses that were not taken care of, underfed and kept tied up on a lead rope all the time. Several people called the sheriff but nothing was done. There is no "animal control" at the county level, and these were outside city limits. The local humane society is already overwhelmed with dogs and cats, they have no resources/facilities for horses. So that's the other side of the coin, when people who really are mistreating their animals get by with it because there aren't any resources in place to deal with it.


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## Bubba1358 (Nov 6, 2013)

MO_cows said:


> Some do-gooder who doesn't know a thing about livestock called them. Your beef is with them, not the AC people just doing their job and responding to the complaint. It must have been irritating to have them checking out all your animals and taking photos, but in the long run it's to your advantage, it's on the record now that your critters are well cared for.


Ya know, I think you're spot on here. It was very irritating, and felt far worse than a TSA airport screening check. But you're right - the record shows happy, healthy, well-fed animals. So maybe if there's another call, they'll dismiss it after reviewing the facts.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Some called them because they thought my 17+ year old horse looked too thin. I showed them the feed I had the hay and told them I was adding oil and molasses to give him more calories because his teeth were going.

She started telling me I needed to do this and that so I stopped her. I looked right at her and said is there any law which prevents me from shooting my own horse? She hemmed and hawwed for a while and said there wasn't. I told her the horse was old, wasn't going to make it much longer and I'd shoot him bury him before I did all the stuff she was saying he 'needed'. At that point she was much less pushy about what I 'needed' to do.

FYI, he lasted about 8 more months. The ornery waited for a day when I was sick as a dog to drop dead. Drug myself out there to give him his morning feed and there he was. Had to get the tractor and bury him all the while thinking I wish there was someone to put me in the hole with him. It was miserable work but at least I didn't barf on the tractor.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

This has happened to us. We didn't bother with "outrage" as there was nothing wrong with our animals and we would rather that there be a hundred mistaken reports then that one case of real animal cruelty be ignored or missed. We live by the philosophy that if you have nothing to hide you hide nothing and this has served us well. We also got to know the local animal control officers and this was quite beneficial to us over the years. 

I also worked with animal rescue for 30 years and there were so many cases that could have been shortened or ended if people would just pay attention and make a report. What you see is not always the reality (as in your case) but better safe then sorry.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

All the folks that came out to inspect and take pictures said everything was fine. I think I would like a paper copy of their reports just to back up what they told you. I would go out and take pictures of all the animals that they took pictures of, just for my own records. They are probably just doing their jobs and cta's but reassuring words mean little in 2014. :umno:


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

Some times I half expect to get a call, our cat goes scratching door to door in our neighborhood looking for handouts, usually at breakfast time, he likes bacon. One look at him and they would know he wasn't starved. He is 15 pounds. We got a call about our dog, he would visit the neighbors to play with their dog and they complained our dog was out. Bless our dog, he went over there when she had her rich friends over that she was trying to impress, and he was mooching food from them. We managed to break him from going off the property. The point is that you now have a reputation of having fine animals and people talk. We have a reputation of having fat animals, and the lady that complains all the time has a reputation of being a complainer. Don't worry about the visit.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I even had my vet tell me my horse was too thin and she could see her ribs. I glanced over and said those aren't ribs- those are fat rolls. She went over to feel and sure enough couldn't find a rib. 

I wish there was a policy that at AC would go to check the first report but keep a record and tell subsequent callers that they have checked and found everything ok. That if they insisted a second visit is needed, that the caller must provide id and a valid credit card number and will be charged for the check if everything proves acceptable again.


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## hawgsquatch (May 11, 2014)

Why would you allow someone to take photographs and collect evidence without a warrant?


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## cast iron (Oct 4, 2004)

Bubba1358 said:


> The first lady saw our dog, and requested his rabies shot certificate. Which of course I provided on the spot.


Great, like a traffic stop where the officer is fishing.

That kind of thing wouldn't set well with me.

I'd be inclined to ask her to present her credentials (not just the badge) to make sure they were current. After all, if she has nothing to hide...

I realize this is not an option for all folks, but we have gone to great lengths to make sure the vast majority of our operation cannot be seen from the road as I just don't have the time or patience to deal with busy bodies.


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## Bubba1358 (Nov 6, 2013)

Wayne02 said:


> I realize this is not an option for all folks, but we have gone to great lengths to make sure the vast majority of our operation cannot be seen from the road as I just don't have the time or patience to deal with busy bodies.


I wish!! As it is, we have about 40' of privacy fence extending from our house. Our house is set maybe 60' off the road. So in the winter, it's possible to see all the way to the back end of our 5.4 acres. I don't like it.

I need to fence off my orchard from deer anyway, so maybe this is a good opportunity and a wake-up call to install that 15' cinderblock perimeter wall I've been dreaming of.....

And no - NONE of this is sitting well with me. I'm still peeved about the whole thing. My wife suggested i call to obtain a physical copy of the report. Next time I'm in town, I might just show up at the AC office and demand it.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I was going to suggest getting a copy of the complaint. True the complaint can be made anonymously but there is a chance it has the name and address of the complainer. At least it will let you know what was said. 

TN is pretty hard-nosed about rabies. In fact, it's illegal to keep or harbor a dog or cat 6 months or older if it hasn't been vaccinated against rabies.
https://www.animallaw.info/statute/tn-rabies-chapter-8-rabies


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

I guess I'm just a hard ..... butt, but I would have given the first person a chance to inspect the animal in question, then told them to get off my property. The second person to show up would have been pointed in the direction of the road and told not to come back without a warrant.


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## libertygirl (Jul 18, 2011)

where I want to said:


> I even had my vet tell me my horse was too thin and she could see her ribs. I glanced over and said those aren't ribs- those are fat rolls. She went over to feel and sure enough couldn't find a rib.
> 
> I wish there was a policy that at AC would go to check the first report but keep a record and tell subsequent callers that they have checked and found everything ok. That if they insisted a second visit is needed, that the caller must provide id and a valid credit card number and will be charged for the check if everything proves acceptable again.


That is pretty sad, if a vet can't tell the difference between fat rolls or ribs at a glance. Sheesh!


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

I can understand the "not without a warrant" side, but sometimes you just have to pick your battles. 

A little time was lost, they looked at more than they needed to. It went into the AC files that Bubba is a good caretaker, so if there are any further complaints, the AC will likely be on Bubba's "side" to begin with. And maybe the AC officer runs into someone who wants to buy a pig or something else that Bubba is raising, now there is a good word of mouth referral for Bubba. 

On the other hand, you could say get off my property without a warrant, but then have them come back with a full force and tear your place apart and take all day doing it. And make yourself appear to be high maintenance/difficult if not suspicious, create a bad relationship with the local AC and law enforcement to where they just look for something to cite you for, etc. I don't want to play that game for as long as I live there!

So in this case, I think Bubba did the right thing to cooperate


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Hmm, animal control, we don't have one in our county. Most of the time it's the SO that take care of that kind of thing, that is if the neighbors don't get there first. Either way an offender would not be happy. Can't remember any real instances of animal cruelty, thing is most everyone knows each other or is related.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Lived in Town, animals allowed. Had someone call the City Marshall because I had several Cornish X that was about ready to butcher. He came cuffed me to question me on my Chickens because the caller said I was a Bad Person. Said my Chickens smelled, give me so many days to take care of it. No problem, did it, he told them nothing he could do.

Had Beagles Animal Rights Person kept turning them out, city kept catching them and fining me for letting them run. Finally couple Guy on City Council shot them, I sued the City. They paid for the Dogs but wasn't the same.

I had to keep any dead animals out of sight even hunted animals because of Animal Rights person.

big rockpile


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

Friend of mine gave away a pony. It developed heaves, but she founds someone that was willing to take it, said the heaves weren't a problem. Few months later, found the pony back in the field, skinny as a rail. She did the smart thing and called AC herself so that if they got any complaints, they knew what was up.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

libertygirl said:


> That is pretty sad, if a vet can't tell the difference between fat rolls or ribs at a glance. Sheesh!


Good vet. It was not all her fault as the mare has an exceptionally wide and long hip- a butt to die for. But her loin is not so wide so she always looks a bit sunken at the hip.


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## Oldhat (Jun 2, 2014)

Bubba

I live in Middle Tn also. And by your description I know where you live and have seen your cow tied to the tree in your front yard......Nope, not me that called you in, however I'd be interested in knowing if we are "neighbors" or not? Maybe share some resources from time to time.

I live in between Franklin and Murfreesboro in Rutherford County....If the cow I see in the front yard is indeed yours and at your place, then I will say that you likewise have a neighbor down the road that is a cop (cruiser is always in their driveway)? If so I drive by your house every day of the week...I take the kids to school every morning as their bus ride is 1:40 minutes.

Neighbor?


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Saw a neighbor out by the road a few weeks ago, he doesn't live out here, but has 4 horses in a field - why I don't know. Anyway, I stopped and said "you're welcome". He looked at me funny and said "for what". I answered "oh, I guess that was a little presumptuous of me, you never did thank me for watering your horses for 2 weeks in July, so a you're welcome is a little out of place". Their plastic water tub had cracked and wouldn't hold water. I hauled my spare metal one up there and filled it every couple days. His answer? "I wondered whose tub that was". Apparently he'd been out of town, he's a traveling evangelist.


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## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

Nevermind.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

Bubba1358 said:


> I wish!! As it is, we have about 40' of privacy fence extending from our house. Our house is set maybe 60' off the road. So in the winter, it's possible to see all the way to the back end of our 5.4 acres. I don't like it.
> 
> I need to fence off my orchard from deer anyway, so maybe this is a good opportunity and a wake-up call to install that 15' cinderblock perimeter wall I've been dreaming of.....
> 
> And no - NONE of this is sitting well with me. I'm still peeved about the whole thing. My wife suggested i call to obtain a physical copy of the report. Next time I'm in town, I might just show up at the AC office and demand it.


What has you PO'd is government intrusion. There are many gooberment employees that fear for their jobs because if someone investigated they would find out that the employee doesn't have much to do. 

Animal control is needed to deal with those folks that are abusing animals. They should expunge the entire encounter when they find the animal owner is treating their animal correctly. Instead they have to document a case to show that they are doing their job. 

I would go down there and demand that your case be put through the shredder like it never happened in the first place.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

"I would go down there and demand that your case be put through the shredder like it never happened in the first place."

Precisely the WRONG thing to do. Whenever you want to take action based upon emotion, take a deep breath and ask "What do I want as the best possible outcome?" and then "What are the range of ALL possible outcomes?" then "How can I best achieve what I want in the easiest fashion?"

Going down there like that is pasting a label on your forehead saying "unreasonable hothead." There are times you may want and need to do that, but doing it here achieves nothing.

Changing systems is difficult enough with a cool head. When you bust in on people who have seen the dregs of humanity who do abuse animals and anything else, and have major psych issues, you might has well have walked up to the local sheriff and called his wife names.

The system as it stands leaves people alone unless there are reports. The "enemy" is those who file false and nuisance reports. I'm going to say flat out that if someone IS abusing animals the way I described in my first post, I want the sheriff or animal control to act. A look-see and an apology are not an abuse of power.

Politely asking for a copy of the file makes some sense. It allows you to check for accuracy and start a file of your own. If the neighbor persists, then the copies of multiple events would be enough for a restraining order.


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## ceresone (Oct 7, 2005)

Neighbors complained to me about my thin horse--he's 34 years old, Arabian at that, and He gets his warm feed every day--but Vet said I'd never keep his weight up, just put him down. However, He looks good to me, so I just ignore them. He has all the feed, hay and water he wants. Wish people got thinner as they age--well, me anyhow!


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## Bubba1358 (Nov 6, 2013)

Oldhat said:


> Bubba
> 
> I live in Middle Tn also. And by your description I know where you live and have seen your cow tied to the tree in your front yard......Nope, not me that called you in, however I'd be interested in knowing if we are "neighbors" or not? Maybe share some resources from time to time.
> 
> ...


Wow, small world. Seems we are neighbors indeed! Do you live on my same road? Which direction do you go when you pass by? Send me a PM.

I actually think a cop might have been the one to call in. Maybe not that particular one. I noticed a similar-looking cruiser slow down right near her that same morning.



Nimord said:


> What has you PO'd is government intrusion.


Yes, this is exactly it. My wife and I both have had our dander up about the Nanny State over this. The employees themselves were just in CYA mode, and I know that. It's "the system" that has me irked.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

Harry Chickpea said:


> "I would go down there and demand that your case be put through the shredder like it never happened in the first place."
> 
> Precisely the WRONG thing to do. Whenever you want to take action based upon emotion, take a deep breath and ask "What do I want as the best possible outcome?" and then "What are the range of ALL possible outcomes?" then "How can I best achieve what I want in the easiest fashion?"
> 
> ...


Sorry Harry. Got to disagree. The point is that the gooberment is sticking their nose into everyone's lives way too much.

"The system as it stands leaves people alone unless there are reports." This sounds very like Nazi Germany or communist Russia. The gooberment has informants on every block. All it takes is someone with a grudge or who is sadistic to get you into trouble even when you have done nothing wrong.

We have to stop this. Complaining on a local level is a start. We also need to get our federal congressmen to pass a law preventing the gooberment from keep a record on you when you have done nothing wrong.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

So you all who are opposed at animal control "sticking their nose into our business", what do you think should be done about animal abuse and neglect? How are those cases supposed to be found and remedied without home visits stemming from complaints? It's not as if animal control stops by every single house with livestock to snoop, they do it when they get a complaint. 

I am glad for animal control, and I am glad that we have a county with a fairly active, reasonable animal control. I have called on dogs that I saw were clearly neglected, and I'm glad others call too. Yes, some people make unneeded phone calls because they dont' understand horses don't need blankets in the winter, or dairy cows look thin...but these are chances to educate the public! 

If there was a complaint about any of my animals, I'd welcome the AC officer and be glad to show them all the well cared for animals.


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## Eagle-eye (Sep 16, 2014)

hawgsquatch said:


> Why would you allow someone to take photographs and collect evidence without a warrant?


This was my thought exactly. Just because somebody shows up 'from the government' doesn't mean they can go where-ever they want and do what ever they want. It is still YOUR PROPERTY, you have rights and they have limits.

I might be inclined to say, I'm sorry I don't allow trespassing without a warrant. Here is the number of my attorney, please leave and have a nice day.

Also, I definitely would NOT allow them to take photos of my other animals. What do they have to do with the cow?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I know that anything you do that aggravates AC will hurt you in the end but it sure seems like you should be able to recover damages for hassle from the person that made the complaint.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Nimrod said:


> Sorry Harry. Got to disagree. The point is that the gooberment is sticking their nose into everyone's lives way too much.
> 
> "The system as it stands leaves people alone unless there are reports." This sounds very like Nazi Germany or communist Russia. The gooberment has informants on every block. All it takes is someone with a grudge or who is sadistic to get you into trouble even when you have done nothing wrong.
> 
> We have to stop this. Complaining on a local level is a start. We also need to get our federal congressmen to pass a law preventing the gooberment from keep a record on you when you have done nothing wrong.


I understand your disagreement. There are a few different issues involved in the scenario, and we all tend to focus on what stands out the most for us as an individual.

Is the government too involved in the monitoring and running of people's lives? Absolutely. You get no argument from me on that.

Did a neighbor make a bad call in reporting what they thought was abuse? Again, absolutely. No argument there either.

Was the check for more than the stated problem? Yes. Was that excessive? ... Probably. At the same time I can see it as prudent and proactive, because if the neighbor had a hard-on for the original poster, follow-up complaints would be inevitable.

Was the documentation excessive? Yes and no. They have to justify any decision, and I'll be blunt - I document just about everything - ESPECIALLY where there is a dispute. Living in this society requires it if you don't want to lose your shirt. Looking at supporting your side of the discussion, there is something that you missed that is quite important:

Animal rights extremists have penetrated the Humane Society and made inroads into legislation to further their agenda of limiting humanity's interaction with animals of any type. That is a dangerous precedent.

For that reason, the check on other animals that were not mentioned is problematic. Second-guessing and doing some Monday morning quarterbacking, a response at the time might be "Sorry, but you may not do anything more than verify the original complaint was not valid. If you want to do more, you have a choice - either you get a warrant showing due cause, or you you bring the person making the accusation here so that we can discuss this together." People have a right to make an accusation, but the accused is by common law allowed to face their accuser. That has been the normal check and balance to a lot of unfounded accusations.

On the continuum of governmental interference, the problem is pretty small. When in Florida, we had about five fruiting citrus trees. At some point, citrus canker got introduced into the south Florida area and the growers in the north were having hissy fits. As long as Jeb Bush was governor, their lobbyists were held in check. When the next governor was elected, it was a matter of months before the government came on our property and CUT DOWN our uninfected citrus trees, with no compensation other than a coupon for Walmart or some such. Now THAT was government interference. Lawsuits flew back and forth, with the end result being that the compensation was upped, but the citrus cutting was upheld as legal (which it was not by any meaningful rule of law).

Choose your battles wisely. Winning against _any_ checking of animal abuse is not only impractical and impossible, fighting that battle will diminish your clout in others. You might fight for a restriction on how far an investigation can reach, and with some good examples of excesses make some change.

By the way, you just hit Godwin's law. Under usenet rules, the thread would close.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

MDKatie said:


> So you all who are opposed at animal control "sticking their nose into our business", what do you think should be done about animal abuse and neglect? How are those cases supposed to be found and remedied without home visits stemming from complaints? It's not as if animal control stops by every single house with livestock to snoop, they do it when they get a complaint.
> 
> I am glad for animal control, and I am glad that we have a county with a fairly active, reasonable animal control. I have called on dogs that I saw were clearly neglected, and I'm glad others call too. Yes, some people make unneeded phone calls because they dont' understand horses don't need blankets in the winter, or dairy cows look thin...but these are chances to educate the public!
> 
> If there was a complaint about any of my animals, I'd welcome the AC officer and be glad to show them all the well cared for animals.


How would you feel if a government agent showed up demanding to see your children, see proof that you are providing them the "proper" food and care, and to search your house to make sure you weren't neglecting them all based on nothing but an anonymous phone call?

If someone can see my critters from public property to see they are in bad shape then AC should be able to keep their hineies on public property when they come out to look at them. Anyone with the least bit of animal knowledge should be able to tell if there is negligent or abuse going on by looking at the animal(s) and grounds. If and only they see something to give the probable cause there is a problem THEN they can come on private property and ask nicely to see the critters and ask about them. If the owner tells them to get lost they should have to take their PC to a judge and try to get a warrant just like any other government official.


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## lazyBum (Feb 27, 2012)

Them not finding anything wrong does not guarantee they wont be back. Children services have been called for my neice and nephew multiple times. Each time they come out and do their inspection. Each time they find nothing wrong. Its insulting and an invasion of privacy for them to continue coming out when they know they have found nothing before.

I had an old car in my driveway in town. Somebody kept reporting me to the police. Five times i had to prove that it ran. That it was insured. And that it was registered.

Whoever complained will complain again. And animal control will be back. Theres a lot of people moving to rural areas that dont know anything about animals.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> I know that anything you do that aggravates AC will hurt you in the end but it sure seems like you should be able to recover damages for hassle from the person that made the complaint.


Oh how I wish that was true! You have to prove it was done with malice aforethought. I know a family who had to deal with CPS for several years because a busy-body LIED to CPS about an incident that never happened. 

You might be able to hit the complainer with a stalking or harassment charge but that too is very difficult to prove that they were intentionally trying to harass you. Not that easy. (of course, that all depends on your state laws too)


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

A few moves ago, the guy who lived next door to me got mad when my indoor cat bolted outside, got spooked and ran 40 feet up a tree in my backyard. He knocked on my door and told me my cat was up the tree - I told him I knew that, but I couldn't do anything about it and the cat would come down when he was ready :shrug:

Apparently that was the wrong answer . An hour later AC was at my door after getting an "anonymous" phone call. I took the officer out back, showed him the cat, and explained that there was nothing I could do about it except wait for the cat to come down. AC Officer agreed and said he'd never seen a cat skeleton in a tree LOL. 

The neighbor was watching all this from his window, and when he saw the AC guy leave he must have gotten mad...because another hour goes by and a supervisor from the FIRE department came by, because of an "anonymous" phone call requesting they bring a truck with a ladder to retrieve the cat . I took THAT person into my backyard and showed him the location of the tree and the cat. He agreed there was no feasible way to get a ladder up there, and that all we could do was wait for the cat to come down on his own.

Again that made the neighbor mad, he just wouldn't quit :facepalm: The next day I was an hour away at a friend's house when my phone rang and it was an AC officer telling me that my cat had come down from the tree and he was dehydrated (duh, he'd been up in a tree for two days!) and that the cat had been taken to the local emergency clinic by a "good Samaritan" the second he came down from the tree, and I needed to go pick up my cat and pay the ER vet bill for them examining the cat and giving him sub-q fluids . I raised heck at the ER clinic because I didn't authorize ANY treatment, the cat wasn't in that bad of condition that he needed emergency care, and if they wanted someone to pay the bill they should have paid the person who brought MY cat in without my permission. 

After that, the neighbor was super mad at me - I guess he got stuck with that bill . A week or so later AC was at my front door because they'd gotten an "anonymous" phone call that my dogs were in poor condition :hammer:. I show my dogs, they're actually usually a little on the chunky side because that's how the judges like them, so I brought the AC guy into my home and pulled all my dogs out of their crates, showed him the kennel license that I had from the county that allowed me to have up to 10 dogs at a time, I had all their paperwork including rabies certificates in a file and I had a microchip scanner in hand to prove identity of the dogs if necessary when the AC guy stopped me and said everything was clearly in order, he apologized and left.

Another week or so goes by, and a different AC officer shows up at my door - ANOTHER "anonymous" phone call about my dogs. I let that officer in, gave her the penny tour, then I told her that I'd been compliant and open with both her and her coworker, but that the next time they showed up I wanted the name and phone number of that "anonymous" phone caller, because I happened to know that all the county phones have caller ID so they did in fact have that information, because I intended to charge that caller with harassment, because it was getting ridiculous. She agreed with me and told me she'd put a note in the system that next time someone called about my dogs to tell the caller that they'd been out several times and all was fine, and that I was intending to file harassment charges if there was another unfounded trip out to my place, and if they still wanted to make the claim that my dogs were not being cared for and they were fine, they'd be liable.

That took care of it.... but that neighbor hated me from day 1 :shrug:. He had 4 or 5 outdoor cats who used my yard as a litterbox when the house was vacant before I moved in, and he had never liked it that MY dogs chased HIS cats out of MY yard all the time . I was so happy when I moved out of there a few months later that I threw a big loud party just because I could :buds:


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

Katie,
If you look at post 29 you will see that I do not advocate no inspections by Animal Control. I think they are necessary to catch people mistreating animals.

My problem is with the gooberment keeping a record when no problem has been found. If they come out and everything is OK, they should just go home and not make a permanent record. Same thing with Child Protective Services. Ditto when someone is arrested but the charges are dropped. Any record of these interactions with the gooberment should be destroyed provided the person has done nothing wrong. 

I also have a problem with an anonymous caller being able to get the gooberment up in your business. The caller needs to be identified. Only then can their motives be ascertained.


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## lazyBum (Feb 27, 2012)

They should keep a record when they find nothing wrong. That way they know not to bother those people again. 

Repeated complaints should be required to be public knowledge.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

bluemoonluck, you make the point very eloquently.


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

Bubba1358 said:


> So today, the "livestock" expert comes by to take a look at everything, and take pictures for the "case." He mentioned that they've received several calls this year about just-freshened animals (cows and horses) looking thinner than usual. He took pics of the cows, but also my pigs, sheep, and chickens.
> 
> 
> Has this happened to anyone else here? How'd you deal with it?


Just who was the 'expert'? Did the person that took the additional pictures have a badge or a warrant?

If they did not, they had *better not be on my property without my permission*. Sounds like some PeTA people got a link-in somewhere.
Find out, NOW. Because if they did not have an 'official' reason to be there, yet you are prosecuted for the pictures he took, it will cost *you* money and headaches.

Do not be afraid to sue the pants off the guy (ie everything you own now but I leave you a cardboard box to live in) if he is not 'official'.

Bullys only respect bullying.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

The people across the road from me have told me to my face that they don't like looking at my cows. For the past 7 years, they've filed complaints against me with every entity imaginable in an attempt to drive me out of the neighborhood. The last was when they called Animal Control to claim my cows were 'starving' because they were reaching under the bottom strand of the electric wire to get at the grass outside their pasture. Apparently they'd never heard the phrase, "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence"! :facepalm:


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

lazyBum said:


> They should keep a record when they find nothing wrong. That way they know not to bother those people again.
> 
> Repeated complaints should be required to be public knowledge.


Hows about they keep records of the people that call. Then we know who the trouble makers are.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Nimrod, I bet they do keep the records of the people that call and probably talk about it among themselves. If Bubba's animals are obviously well fed and being taken care of I wonder if he didn't aggravate the relative of someone in authority and this is a little payback. Just a supposition no fact...

When we lived in VA I called the police when a little neighbor child was visiting at our house. She and my daughter were playing and our daughter kept trying to get my attention. I was busy washing dishes and finally stopped to listen. :ashamed:

Our daughter said "Mommy, Susie's(not her real name) hurt her". I thought maybe a spanking. No, when I asked where, she said on her back. I pulled up the shirt and there were imprints where she was beaten with a cord. I had never been in this situation before. I didn't want to deal with all the flack that may come from getting involved. :yuck: But I called the police, they came, I don't remember if they took pictures. The mother arrived at my house while the police were still there and said "what have YOU done" ?

The father was never arrested, we tried to get the family counseling through the our church, and about a year later the father cut the mother of his children pretty severely so as to try to make her unattractive to other men. And a couple of days after I called the police, we got a big rock through our picture window in the middle of the night. 

I said all this because if I saw cords marks on any child or what I thought was obvious abuse to animals I would not hesitate to call authorities, whether it did any good or not.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

lazyBum said:


> They should keep a record when they find nothing wrong. That way they know not to bother those people again.



Right. Seems like a good idea to make a note in a file that there was no evidence of anything wrong, so when/if there is another complaint, they can see the record of what's been done.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I wonder if it some sort of automatic response to take pictures. When two dogs killed my old pet goat and hurt two more, the AC officer took lots of pictures of the damage without seeming any intent to do anything about the dogs who did it.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Ok years ago I had couple Beagles. I kept them Penned, they could get into a Garage. I would leave on Trips for two or three days at a time. Made sure they had plenty of Food and Water.

Had an Animal Rights person lived next door to me. I tried complying with everything she wanted including hiding any Game I killed, catching Snakes out of her house and turning them lose down the road.

Got to when I left she would turn my Dogs lose. City would pick them up and Charge me. I told Local Law what was going on, they told me to put a Lock on the Gate. I did this, she busted up my Gate.

I turned couple Guys on City Counsel in for Poaching. Me and my wife went Deer hunting for couple days, she left before me. I get home, asked if my Dogs were there? Nope. I go to Local Law, he said he would find out what happen with my Dogs. Get back she had called the Sheriff on me. The Local Law drives up, says my Dogs were running, instead of being put in the Pound, the Guys on City Counsel had shot them  I came unglued on her. What does she say? Well at least they are no longer suffering  

I sued the city, they paid for my Dogs. Which is all they could do. Didn't change things between me and this woman. She tried to break up me and my wife, tried having me throwed in jail. Then had guts enough to try and be nice while I was moving out.

Her Dogs killed a neighbors Calf, he shot and killed one, shot and wounded one. She sued the Guy. She said the Dogs were doing what comes natural Hunting.

big rockpile


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Harry Chickpea said:


> I understand your disagreement.
> There are a few different issues involved in the scenario,
> and we all tend to focus on what stands out the most for us as an individual.
> 
> ...


*************************
*"It is considered poor form to raise such a 
comparison arbitrarily with the motive of 
ending the thread."* :hijacked: Of course, you're probably *NOT*
trying to do this consciously......but it does have the affect on those who 
might wish to comment on the thread. BTW: I not only disagree with Godwin's 
analogy that once a party introduces such an argument, that they lose the argument 
by default and that the thread should be shelved, as well as your reasoning, that we 
should 'cooperate' with the authorities, to be good citizens. The presumption is that 
everyone is already a 'good' citizen and it is up to those who wish to show cause, to prove otherwise. 
The cow was visible from the road, someone complained about it's appearance, and A.C. came out to 
investigate _*THAT COW ONLY*_!!! I'd be danged if I would then give them carte blanche to start checking 
on all the other animals and taking photos, etc. without their first procuring a valid warrant. 

One thing that you mentioned previously, is that under the rule of common law, 
we have a right to face our accuser (IN A COURT OF LAW), but you'd be unpleasantly surprised, 
that those who anonymously report *(or wish to remain anonymous) animal abuse or better yet, 
call in cases of suspected child welfare to CPS, will *normally, NOT* be disclosed by the investigating agencies!!! 
The argument that much of what we are seeing is beginning to look like Nazi Germany is still valid......and unless 
more of us are willing to put our collective feet down and announce *"ENOUGH - NO MORE!!!"*, 
then the tyranny will continue to go on unabated and worse will follow.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

riverdale said:


> just who was the 'expert'?
> Did the person that took the additional pictures have a badge or a warrant?
> 
> If they did not, they had *better not be on my property without my permission*.
> ...


****************************

*generous*....


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## Acer Rubrum (Nov 23, 2011)

Animal right activists are on a mission. Think you're not a target? Then you're an EASY target.

I would not even allow animal control or law enforcement officers onto my property to investigate that ONE COW unless they had a search warrant. Why? To send a loud and clear message to my nosy neighbor that they don't have the power to rain down harassment on me. Watching me stand up for my rights will tell them to go find an easier target elsewhere.

If by some convoluted means, a search warrant is issued then I would let the law enforcement officers view ONLY the ONE COW listed on the warrant. This can be done in a very nice and polite way. Who says you must come off as a hothead when protecting your rights? You can speak in very polite terms with a genuine smile on your face, and gently get the point across that: while you know the law enforcement officers are doing their job, you are doing yours by protecting your property and your rights. Be cordial. Meanwhile, stand back a few feet and photograph everything they are viewing and photographing- except your photo will include them as well as the cow. Just casually mention, as you are snapping pics too, that you would also like to have your own documentation (photos) of the cow and situation. (This means that their photos cannot be altered, as you will have proof with your photos.) Video is even better.

When animal control leaves, they will have the distinct impression that:
1- Your animals are fine and well-cared-for.
2- You are a reasonable, calm and polite member of society with respect for others.
3- You know your rights and that any further contact with your must be done in a legal manner and that they must dot their I's and cross their T's when dealing with you.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I wonder if it some sort of automatic response to take pictures. When two dogs killed my old pet goat and hurt two more, the AC officer took lots of pictures of the damage without seeming any intent to do anything about the dogs who did it.


Some states maintain a fund to reimburse owners of livestock killed by domestic dogs, even in cases where the owner of the dog isn't identified. Perhaps the officer was documenting in case you filed a claim?


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

MDKatie said:


> So you all who are opposed at animal control "sticking their nose into our business", what do you think should be done about animal abuse and neglect? How are those cases supposed to be found and remedied without home visits stemming from complaints? It's not as if animal control stops by every single house with livestock to snoop, they do it when they get a complaint.
> 
> I am glad for animal control, and I am glad that we have a county with a fairly active, reasonable animal control. I have called on dogs that I saw were clearly neglected, and I'm glad others call too. Yes, some people make unneeded phone calls because they dont' understand horses don't need blankets in the winter, or dairy cows look thin...but these are chances to educate the public!
> 
> If there was a complaint about any of my animals, I'd welcome the AC officer and be glad to show them all the well cared for animals.


I don't like them doing this without a warrant. a warrant could protect the person from the extensive questions, inspections, photos, and reports that it sounds like they have gone ahead and decided to do. it feels like a guilty until proven innocent mentality. that's what I don't like.


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

copperkid3 said:


> ****************************
> 
> *generous*....


I *try* to be nice........


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## haunted (Jul 24, 2011)

I'm getting old and I know it, but I remember when humans had more rights than animals, and law enforcement spent more time trying to track down felons than checking on livestock.


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## arnie (Apr 26, 2012)

I had the AC show up at my farm look every thing over . I jokeingly asked if someone turned me in for over feeding the animails .some one said I had stolen their pure bred cholacolat lab . I pointed out to the warden that I have Mt curs on the farm and 6 years ago illeagly hunting on posted land **** hunters walker **** hound had bread my femail leaveing me with 9 crossed pups to find a home for 8 went to local hunters one of which was the accused to be stolen dog I kept is extra faithful and protectof of me n mine the officer agreed as the only resemblance to a lab was his color with his houndy looks and cur personality . I also told the officer that if he noticed the no tresspassng sign at the gate and the one mile of non state maintained road of mine to get to the house and for the people that were accuseing me to see my dog that they had to enter posted land and travel at least one mile of rough road and I had been being troubled with people hunting mushrooms ,gensang , other herbs ,and hunting not only out of season but without permission . and why were the ones accuseing me of dog thievery (which I consider only the lowest form of human could do ) and though he would not tell me who the accusers were ; I told him to relay the news that being on my property was against the law . I tried to be nice and not lose my temper as he said I was OK as the dog was obvieously not the missing one being a hound . in our county there are numerious trailor corts with wandering pit bull and lots of stray dogs dumped off by city folks wanting rid of unstable pets so there is plenty for a animal warden to do but it seems that relitives of local polititions can ignore no trespassing signs when 4 wheeling and poching game and a warden can spend several hours visiting me . just thought I vent some and let farmes know in the eyes of county office workers farmers have a low priority and to never let your guard down those county workers are often political relatives not really qualified for the job and a complaint from a second cousin who failed to keep a good fence around their trailor to contain their pet may often carry more priorty than a child or livestock getting mauled by a stray . I now like you have a record of a complaint against me for dog thievery and not feeding them properly


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Pretty, well fed dogs! Arnie you may want to put up some trail cams just to see who is roaming around and document what they are doing on your property. Pictures and video may come in handy at a later date...


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## Junkman (Dec 17, 2005)

Isnt is strange the same people will see an underfed, ragged child and never notice?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Sometimes I have to fight the old me. The old me didn't get mad, he got even. If I knew someone was calling any government agency on me they would find their lives a living Hades. They would find everyone from animal control to the FBI and home land security showing up at their door. There'd be reports of abused animals, abused kids, kiddy porn on their computer, the smell of meth chemicals, threats against the President all called in from disposable cell phones bought with cash.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Watcher, the old you reminded me of what a dear friend did to an aunt that caused her grief. Everyone is now passed away, so I feel I can share this. My friend and her sister bought some very nice invitations and sent out many of them to her aunt's friends for a party. When everyone started showing up "for the party" her aunt knew exactly where those invitations came from. I am not saying this is right, just saying some folks, like yourself, come up with creative solutions...


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Use it. You are free and clear with compliments from the agencies. I've been there and came up the same way. Afterwards I made it very clear to all that not only am I from the wrong side of the tracks, I OWN the wrong side of the tracks. Don't set foot without permission. Some are still trying to swallow the bitter pill from 20 years past. Most find out that I'm a pretty decent rough ol' cob.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

Bubba1358 said:


> So today, the "livestock" expert comes by to take a look at everything, and take pictures for the "case." He took pics of the cows, but also my pigs, sheep, and chickens.


Well, while they were there they might as well document everything. 

Chances are that "animal lover" that saw your "skinny" cow and called it in will be calling them back for something else - after all, you still have your animals and must be "mistreating" all fo them.

When the person calls back in and says "This person has sheep that aren't being taken care of.", they now have a file that says otherwise. And if they do come back out to check on your "sick" sheep, they will come to find out they are in the same condition they were as when the pictures were taken.

When the person calls back in to report about your "abused" pigs, Animal Control won't even have to bother. 

I would look at it as insurance.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Michael W. Smith said:


> Well, while they were there they might as well document everything.
> 
> Chances are that "animal lover" that saw your "skinny" cow and called
> it in will be calling them back for something else - after all, you still have
> ...


*******************************************
complaint; whether from the original person or not, makes little difference.
They will still have to check it out as if it was the first time offense. Now, 
they make think of it a bit differently, but if they blow it off because there 
was nothing to it the first time and hence feel it will probably be the same this time.......
heaven help them, if they're wrong!

OTOH, I'm quite surprised at how quickly that you've blown off the protections 
of the 4th Amendment and apparently embraced the sheeple philosophy of: 
it's just "insurance" to let them onto the property, take their pictures and build up 
a future case if need be. Don't think that the so-called animal rights folks haven't 
done a lot of this sort of stuff and gone on vendettas to strip those who have been 
minding their business, raising their animals and "cooperating with authorities" and still 
been put thru the wringer and lost ALL their animals and been uncompensated for them.....
even when they finally had their day in court, and were found *NOT GUILTY* and vindicated.
Do *NOT *give away your rights; make them do their jobs and actually work within the frameworks 
set-up by our founding fathers, that the law allows. No less and certainly no more. 

*"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, 
against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue,
but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place 
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.**"*


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## Crisste (Nov 17, 2014)

Harry Chickpea said:


> "I would go down there and demand that your case be put through the shredder like it never happened in the first place."
> 
> Precisely the WRONG thing to do. Whenever you want to take action based upon emotion, take a deep breath and ask "What do I want as the best possible outcome?" and then "What are the range of ALL possible outcomes?" then "How can I best achieve what I want in the easiest fashion?"
> 
> ...


I think you're wrong. 

The fact that you have been investigated and now have a record can come back to bite you later on. Even if you were found innocent. 

If something ever happens and the news media investigates you, they will report that you have been visited (investigated) by animal control in the past and had complaints against you. They won't report the outcome of those complaints, only that you had them. That, in itself, will not look or fare well for you. 

This is why you NEVER ever ever ever ever consent to a warrantless search for any reason no matter what. The minute you consent to a search you're basically allowing the authorities to use anything they find against you for any reason. 

Had that inspector seen an unlabeled medicine bottle on the front seat of your car or on your work bench or your front porch, that would have given them cause to do anything they want. Or maybe your kids buddies friend dropped a marijuana joint on the ground. again, you're busted. 

Consenting to warrantless searches is a very risky business. I'd rather drive around a race track without a seat belt than to allow authorities unfettered and unreasonable access to my property.

Get on Youtube and research it and you'll see what I'm talking about. There are retired judges doing videos on how foolish it is to consent to a warrantless search. 

Very bad advice if you ask me.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Crisste said:


> I think you're wrong.
> 
> The fact that you have been investigated and now have a record can come back to bite you later on. Even if you were found innocent.
> 
> ...


You are conflating two posts. If there is a visit and a record, it makes sense to get it and do so in an unobtrusive fashion. The thrust of my post you object to simply states that. As for the limiting of a visit to the animal in question, that was covered previously.

As for the news media, it will do whatever it can to increase ratings and advertising dollars. I refuse to live my life in fear of reporters. If you want to do so, that is your prerogative.


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## Crisste (Nov 17, 2014)

Harry Chickpea said:


> You are conflating two posts. If there is a visit and a record, it makes sense to get it and do so in an unobtrusive fashion. The thrust of my post you object to simply states that. As for the limiting of a visit to the animal in question, that was covered previously.


Fair enough. I must have missed a few postings between here and the beginning..



> As for the news media, it will do whatever it can to increase ratings and advertising dollars. I refuse to live my life in fear of reporters. If you want to do so, that is your prerogative.


The news media example was just that.. an example.. There are many reasons why you don't want a record of the inspection of your property.. especially one that includes photos.

A simple FOIA request could gain almost anyone access to that information.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

I'll say it again. Pick your battles. If you plan on living in the community for the foreseeable future, you want to be the one who appears sane and reasonable when AC shows up and wants to look at your cow. The caller who complains then appears to be the idiot. Then they see a variety of healthy and well cared for animals at your place. Now they know you as a reasonable person who takes proper care of their livestock. 

Or, would you rather be known as difficult and hard to work with, gonna cite them the constitution over a "skinny cow" report, making their job harder, and giving them an incentive to look for things to cite you for? 

Do you want to be a respected and valued member of your community, or do you just want to be "right"?


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

MO_cows said:


> I'll say it again. Pick your battles. If you plan on living in the community
> for the foreseeable future, you want to be the one who appears sane and reasonable when AC shows
> up and wants to look at your cow. The caller who complains then appears to be the idiot. Then they
> see a variety of healthy and well cared for animals at your place. Now they know you as a reasonable
> ...


********************************
*that it helps make me a respected and valued member of my community.


*But I do also pick my battles when it's possible. 

And sometimes it's not possible.

I truly think that for many of us, we are fast approaching a time and place, 
where we will have to make that decision and then act on it with all our heart and soul.


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## Crisste (Nov 17, 2014)

MO_cows said:


> I'll say it again. Pick your battles. If you plan on living in the community for the foreseeable future, you want to be the one who appears sane and reasonable when AC shows up and wants to look at your cow.


It's a bit ironic that you choose the word "appears" because they don't care how you appear. They have a job to do and that's the end of it.



> The caller who complains then appears to be the idiot. Then they see a variety of healthy and well cared for animals at your place. Now they know you as a reasonable person who takes proper care of their livestock.


There's that word again. Appearances are irrelevant. How you appear will NEVER help you but it could hurt you. Its best to not appear at all unless you have no choice. 



> Or, would you rather be known as difficult and hard to work with, gonna cite them the constitution over a "skinny cow" report, making their job harder, and giving them an incentive to look for things to cite you for?


Yup. They are going to respect my rights at every level. There's a good reason the constitution was written that way. May I suggest you do a little research to find out why? A college course with a professor who's sort of reading between the lines with you is the best way, but any internet search and some fascinating reading will help too. Education is a powerful thing for everyone and the more people who have an understanding of how and why our society is based on the rules we have, the better our society and communities will be as a result.

Here's the problem. If all they were going to do was to check the cow and then forget about it, I wouldn't have a problem. But that's not what they are doing. They are going to file a permanent report that will include subjective descriptions and possibly even photographic evidence. That report will be permanent and be subject to an FOIA request by anyone wanting to know anything about you or your operation. 

I'm not making their job difficult, they are! If they feel the need to create reports and paperwork after the inspection, then they should go ahead and create some for a judge before the inspection too. This way, we all agree on what specifically they'll be there checking for. 



> Do you want to be a respected and valued member of your community, or do you just want to be "right"?


Consenting to a warrantless search will NEVER EVER get you respect by the community or anyone else. Warrantless consent just lets them know you're a push-over and as most folks learned in grade school, no one respects a push-over. 

Also, as I stated above, allowing a warrantless search puts yourself at greater risk. Why would you want to put yourself at greater risk in order to benefit the entity creating that risk? That makes no sense at all.


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## michael ark (Dec 11, 2013)

Here is one of my favorites.[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc[/ame]


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Crisste said:


> It's a bit ironic that you choose the word "appears" because they don't care how you appear. They have a job to do and that's the end of it.
> 
> 
> There's that word again. Appearances are irrelevant. How you appear will NEVER help you but it could hurt you. Its best to not appear at all unless you have no choice.
> ...


I guess a lot depends on the size of the community you live in. Where we live, the president of the bank, the chief of police and the mayor all know you on sight and are on a first name basis. So people appreciate you being reasonable and not intentionally making their job harder. That's not being a pushover, that's just being a reasonably considerate person versus drama queen/king. Just like the AC officer was considerate and explained the reason they were there and asked permission to see the cow -- they didn't just show up with a warrant and police backup in the first place. 

Now if that one "show and tell" session didn't put the matter to rest and they show up again, that's when I would start playing hardball and make them go strictly by the book. 

But in the situation Bubba described, it's all over and he looks like the good guy. And that is exactly where I would want to be.


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## Trainwrek (Aug 23, 2014)

MO_cows said:


> I guess a lot depends on the size of the community you live in. Where we live, the president of the bank, the chief of police and the mayor all know you on sight and are on a first name basis. So people appreciate you being reasonable and not intentionally making their job harder. That's not being a pushover, that's just being a reasonably considerate person versus drama queen/king. Just like the AC officer was considerate and explained the reason they were there and asked permission to see the cow -- they didn't just show up with a warrant and police backup in the first place.
> 
> Now if that one "show and tell" session didn't put the matter to rest and they show up again, that's when I would start playing hardball and make them go strictly by the book.
> 
> But in the situation Bubba described, it's all over and he looks like the good guy. And that is exactly where I would want to be.


I see where you are coming from but alot of people end up with alot of legal trouble trying to be accommodating and trying to look like 'the good guy'.

You can assert your rights without being confrontational or rude to the authorities. You can explain politely that you value our fourth amendment rights. You are not trying to make their job hard, you understand they are only doing their job but your going to have to insist on a warrant.

I carry openly in my state which is the law. But few people do. This means I sometimes get approached by police asking me all sorts of questions about 'why are you carrying a gun'. I usually thank them for asking and tell them that I am exercising my rights as a citizen. I start explaining the history and purpose of the second amendment and why I personally believe it is important for all citizens to exercise their rights lest we loose them. Usually their eyes begin to glaze over pretty quick and I get a "have a nice day".

Exercising your rights does not mean you are doing something confrontational or that you have something to hide. It sometimes just means that you think they are important. If the officer takes it as an offense then that is a problem with them, not you and you shouldn't let that stop you from politely insisting on your rights.


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## billinwv (Sep 27, 2013)

I see both sides of this issue, but try living in an area with no ac. Low totem, untrained sheriff deputy is all you get. Horses here must be "down" in order to get much of a response. I have called about horses that were skin and bones with no feces in their pasture (they ate it), all the trees are debarked and the horses have sore son their chests from pushing at the fence. They were walking so nothing was done. I would take the other extreme any day.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

billinwv said:


> I see both sides of this issue, but try living in an area with no ac. Low totem, untrained sheriff deputy is all you get. Horses here must be "down" in order to get much of a response. I have called about horses that were skin and bones with no feces in their pasture (they ate it), all the trees are debarked and the horses have sore son their chests from pushing at the fence. They were walking so nothing was done. I would take the other extreme any day.


We had a similar deal here. The guy who owned the property died, drank himself to death at 50-something. The horses disappeared then but I have no idea where they went. If the guy wasn't bat crap crazy and known to shoot at people, the horses would have disappeared a long time before that. It wasn't inside city limits, so it was the sheriff's dept. here, too, and if it isn't a life and imminent death crisis they don't do anything. If it was inside city limits it would be the town cops, no AC here either.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

MO_cows said:


> I guess a lot depends on the size of the community you live in. Where we live, the president of the bank, the chief of police and the mayor all know you on sight and are on a first name basis. So people appreciate you being reasonable and not intentionally making their job harder. That's not being a pushover, that's just being a reasonably considerate person versus drama queen/king. Just like the AC officer was considerate and explained the reason they were there and asked permission to see the cow -- they didn't just show up with a warrant and police backup in the first place.
> 
> Now if that one "show and tell" session didn't put the matter to rest and they show up again, that's when I would start playing hardball and make them go strictly by the book.
> 
> But in the situation Bubba described, it's all over and he looks like the good guy. And that is exactly where I would want to be.


I've been mulling the post you responded to. There can be a range of responses that people have to such situations, but you bring up a point that is being missed by those who would toe the line of the law in every situation. In smaller communities, often the relationships are not as cut and dried as in the cities. I'll give an example:

When we first moved to the area, we had to have a deputy out to be able to get clear title on our travel trailer. He was a nice guy, and when I meth-head stole some stuff (before I had the cameras) I went down to him and filed a report and got advice on what I could and couldn't do legally if I caught someone. 

Last winter, he was getting reports of somebody in our area making meth, and he noticed that I kept a light on in one of my outbuildings. He came a-knockin' one night and said there had been reports of someone being seen, and was my outbuilding secure. It was painfully obvious that he was fishing, so my response was "Well you and me better go over there right now so you can check it out. I wouldn't want to run up against someone like that on my own." I unlocked it and let him do a penny tour on his own, and then told him "You ever hear of somebody messin' around, you come over anytime and we'll check it out." Was he stretching boundaries and wanting to do a search? Sure. At the same time, he was doing his job and doing it politely and with respect. If he wants to look at my dusty old furniture and junk, more power to him. After I treated him with respect as well, I expect that if I ever get in an altercation he'll have a pretty good idea (as much as any LEO can, given what they deal with) that I'm an unlikely instigator.

None of us lives in a vacuum, and having decent basic relationships is part of survival.


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

Remember meranda rights. We will use anything you say or do AGAINST you in the court of law.


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