# sheep wormer????



## canadianmandy (Nov 11, 2005)

I need to worm my goats and my sheep and I was told that Sheep Ivomec drench would be ok for the goats ...Will it work? is it to strong? I have a pregnant momma and two young goats. (saanan alpine). Thanks in advance 
Mandy!


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

No, it will not work. Sheep wormer is way too low dosage for goats. Get regular cattle injectable for your goats, give it orally at a rate of 1 cc per 50 lbs of body weight. Sheep drench is .08% by volume, and cattle ivomec is 1.0% - you'd have to give your goats 10 times the amount you gave a similar sized sheep. Don't use horse paste wormers, they're even lower dosage. In the same vein, do NOT give sheep the injectable (orally) cattle concentration, it can kill them. Too many people advise owners that sheep and goat meds are interchangable, but they are way different animals.


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## canadianmandy (Nov 11, 2005)

Thank you so much DocM!!!!!! you saved me a bunch of heartache


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

I use a syringe to pull the ivomec into the syringe, then I unscrew the needle - just shoot into their mouth - and expect them NOT to like it - from the faces my goats make, I assume it tastes like sh*t.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

"do NOT give sheep the injectable (orally) cattle concentration, it can kill them"

Everything thing Ive EVER read about this says youre wrong. Got a source for this info? If so Id love to see it


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## Goatsandsheep (Jun 7, 2006)

We always worm are sheep and goats the same. I've used horse wormer, sheep wormer and cattle wormer on all of them, never had any problems. I do get a fecal done every spring and follow my vet advice on wormer at that time. I think twenty dollars is a cheap price when you think of all the problem worms can cause.


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> "do NOT give sheep the injectable (orally) cattle concentration, it can kill them"
> 
> Everything thing Ive EVER read about this says youre wrong. Got a source for this info? If so Id love to see it


Yes, my medical degree. Hey, it's no skin off my nose if you choose to use a 1% solution of ivomec on your sheep. And kill them. (shrugs)

As for using horse wormer and sheep drench on your goats and it being "okay" as per fecals - I would bet if you did a fecal prior to worming with such low dosage products, your animals didn't require worming at all.


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## Goatsandsheep (Jun 7, 2006)

My fecal are done before worming


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## Earthbound (Feb 3, 2003)

Ok, could someone give me the step by step on giving oral ivomec? It's not something I've ever done and am a bit nervous of change..lol! Any research i've done though points to it as being the way to go, sooooo.......
Also am i ordering it on line, from the vet, feed store? What percentage Ivomec?
thanks in advance!
corry


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

For goats: buy the Ivomec Plus for cattle, 1% solution. Use a syringe to draw the amount into the plunger at a rate of 1 CC per 50 lbs of body weight. Remove needle. Squirt into mouth.

The added benefit of ivomec is that it also kills external parasites - and when your animals are cooped up in barns, with long hair, lice can be a real problem. Many animals that test negative for fecal are actually losing thrift to lice. 

There is no recommended withdrawel time for milk, but I usually wait 72 hours before drinking. Use it safely on bred does. 

For sheep, use Ivomec .08% drench, orally, as per package instructions, using a large plunger. It is NOT the same solution as the cattle wormer, and contains preventatives for parasites that are local to SHEEP. Also, a high concentration of ivomec can and will probably cause fertility problems in ewe sheep, and can possibly cause pregnant ewes to abort. Do not dose sheep with ivomec cattle wormer at the goat dosage, and conversely, do not use sheep drench on goats, it is not strong enough to be effective.

I have found ordering from valley or jeffers to be about 50% the cost of buying from my local feedstore or vet. Have a fecal done before you worm, or buy a cheap microscope and learn to make your own slides. Be careful if you animals have severe parasitic infections - the toxins released in the kill off of large amounts of worms can kill an animal with a diminished immune system. 

Ivomec does not kill tape worms. SAFEGAURD, VALBAZEN, & SYNANTHIC are white wormers used commonly in goats to kill tape worms (used at 3x the cattle dosage for 3 days in a row). Valbazen should not be given to bred animals.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Saying "my medical degree" is NOT a source. This is a source: 

www.durvet.com/DS/383_DS.pdf

"It is NOT the same solution as the cattle wormer, and contains preventatives for parasites that are local to SHEEP"

While it may not be "the same solution", it IS the exact same active ingredient, and if it had any other "preventatives" they would be listed also.

If youre really a Dr you should know the concentration of the drug means nothing without a dosage. The sheep drench is merely diluted 1% Ivomec. If you have a REAL source that documents sheep deaths from using 1% Ivomec please show it. Otherwise all youve shown so far is your opinion

"As for using horse wormer and sheep drench on your goats and it being "okay" as per fecals - I would bet if you did a fecal prior to worming with such low dosage products, your animals didn't require worming at all."

Actually the horse wormer is 1.87% so its higher than the one YOU recommended. Your statements tend to show you havent done enough research on the subject.

http://www.horse.com/products/sku-BBL07.html << This is "a source" If you have any feel free to show them


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

Okay, Einstein.. apparently this is your little kingdom and the your perception of being RIGHT apparently overrules your desire to help anyone in this forum. Like I said, kill your animals, it's no skin off my nose. And BTW, yes, I'm a doctor. And you're what... someone with way too much time to kill? Good lord, it's just a message board - nobody has to take my advice. I'm not advocating anything that is potentially dangerous to livestock. Don't expect me to pay attention to any more of your ridiculous rants - I don't debate.


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## PygmyLover (Oct 12, 2006)

DocM as someone new to the board you shouldn't be arguing with someone with experience with goats. Hey you maybe right but your attitude makes me, the one learning, not willing to listen. 

And taking care of animals and helping other people is not waisting time! She takes the time to help others here.......that should be commended.

Also she is right stating "my medical degree" means nothing if you don't back it up with some research or other things to uphold your statements. If you don't they are just plan oppions.

You say it is not skin off your nose, if you really cared about the animals you would try to make you point by answering the question "do you have any sources to back that statment up"

Just my 2cents worth.


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

Everyone is new to a message board at some point. I've been raising goats for several decades now. Just because I'm "new" doesn't mean I have to respect every idiot (take that any way you'd like) who disagrees with me. Providing a website to back up your "theory" doesn't mean anything. Anybody with a keyboard can design a website - it doesn't mean the information contained is going to be correct. Check with your vet, or any of another dozen goat message board (I'm probably on them) and see what notable, long-time breeders say about using "sheep drench" to worm goats. 

Every single message board has a few people who truly believe that is their given right to correct each and every thread. Personally, I don't care how long you've been on a particular message board, if you're giving bad advice. Go google your own information, that isn't my job. My "opinion" is just as valid as any website - considering that you can't verify the validity of either.

"ooooh, look at me! I've had 46487404848 postings here! You're new! You need to respect me!"

Please, I'm not new to the internet. Every message board has too many kings, and not enough thrones. Don't like my advice? Don't take it. 

All you need to do is read the label on your wormer of choice, do a little algebra, and figure it out for yourself. If you look at my postings to date, I do believe all my information and advice has been valid and even, egads, respected. 

Respect? My animals (sheep and goats) won several championships. I don't need the respect of strangers on a message board - that's now why I'm here. I already have the respect of my fellow breeders.


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

BTW, the original question was "I was told that Sheep Ivomec drench would be ok for the goats ...Will it work?" to which I answered "No, the sheep drench is not high enough concentration to worm goats". Why advise this person to use sheep drench when they'd have to give 10 TIMES the amount they'd give their sheep?? And why advise them to use highly concentrated cattle wormer on sheep when the dosages would be so tiny it would be hard to administer? Does logic apply to this forum at all?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Earthbound said:


> Ok, could someone give me the step by step on giving oral ivomec? It's not something I've ever done and am a bit nervous of change..lol! Any research i've done though points to it as being the way to go, sooooo.......
> Also am i ordering it on line, from the vet, feed store? What percentage Ivomec?
> thanks in advance!
> corry


http://www.goatworld.com/health/meds/dosages.shtml

This will explain it quite well


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## Earthbound (Feb 3, 2003)

Thank you both for the information! 
corry


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

DocM said:


> Okay, Einstein.. apparently this is your little kingdom and the your perception of being RIGHT apparently overrules your desire to help anyone in this forum. Like I said, kill your animals, it's no skin off my nose. And BTW, yes, I'm a doctor. And you're what... someone with way too much time to kill? Good lord, it's just a message board - nobody has to take my advice. I'm not advocating anything that is potentially dangerous to livestock. Don't expect me to pay attention to any more of your ridiculous rants - I don't debate.


LOL All I did was ask for your source. Its you who's doing the name calling and avoiding a straight answer. I can see you dont debate, like you also dont try to back up anything you claim. If you really want to help, try giving advice that is factual. Ive been able to show proof of everything Ive said so far. If you can PROVE its wrong PLEASE do so , so the thousands of people who have been using Ivomec 1% for all these years will know those sheep are dead.


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## goatmarm (Nov 19, 2005)

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## hoggfan (Sep 19, 2004)

DocM said:


> BTW, the original question was "I was told that Sheep Ivomec drench would be ok for the goats ...Will it work?" to which I answered "No, the sheep drench is not high enough concentration to worm goats". Why advise this person to use sheep drench when they'd have to give 10 TIMES the amount they'd give their sheep?? And why advise them to use highly concentrated cattle wormer on sheep when the dosages would be so tiny it would be hard to administer? Does logic apply to this forum at all?


I've been using Levamisole pig wormer http://www.durvet.com/DS/385_DS.pdf?-session=DV:D8A83FAA0a416227AFgnKgFDBD0Ffor my Dorper sheep because thats what a state agri research center stated. In your opinion is this a good sheep wormer? I've been mixing it as directed on the bottle and giving 1ml per 10 lbs of body weight oraly. I've also heard that Levamisole Hydrochloride can be easily overdosed. Thanks for any imput.


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## Meg Z (Jun 8, 2004)

Goodness...is this GC? :grump: 

Personally, when someone offers advice, I think that's nice. When a different person has conflicting advice, then it's time to check sources.

It's not as if you're arguing about what your favorite colors are. If it's subjective, then facts don't matter. Those are just thoughts and ideas, and everyone's opinion has value. If you're offering it as objective fact, and it's something that can affect the health and welfare of our livestock, then you should be able to support it.

Saying, 'Because I said so" is not a source. Neither is creating your own website and offering that. But most of us can recognize a legitimate source from a fly-by-night source. So, offer your sources, and let the readers judge for themselves what is legitimate and what is not, please. Name-calling and belligerence are simply not becoming.

Meg


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

I wasn't the one offering advice that could in any way be harmful to goats. I don't need to prove my sources. If reading comprehension is a problem, that isn't something I can fix (but I can offer some advice). Like I said, if you want to harm your animals by grossly over or underdosing them for worms, go for it. I stand by my advice to use 1% Ivomec for goats and .08% drench for sheep. This is recognized advice given on any number of websites, if you so choose to go to them and discern whether or not they are 'fly by night' - the actual problem here is someone who feels they need to be 'right' about every subject they comment on (whether or not they actually raise goats). It's also quite laughable that I be made to feel somehow inferior because I've only been commenting on this site for a month (been reading it much longer), while the old grand marshall who I'm supposed to be "respecting" has only been posting here a couple of months.

If someone can point out where I give advice that could be harmful to an animal, please point it out. Over and undosing animals with ivomec is dangerous - you'll either get a toxic reaction or cause your animals to become resistant to wormer. 

If you dose your sheep with .08% Ivomec at a rate of 3.0 mL (CC) per 26lbs of body weight (from the package), you'd be drenching a 100 lb sheep with about 12 CC's of drench. To get something near that dose for a goat, you'd need to use 134 CC's of .08% drench. Measure that out and tell me how easy it would be do drench your goat with it. Conversely, a 100 lb goat would need about 2 CC's of 1.0% solution, and that same 100 lb sheep - .15 CC. Measure that out and tell me how effective you think it would be in a sheep's mouth. Would you feel comfortable giving your your sheep the equivalent of about 2 drops of fluid?

Advice, it's free. Take it or leave it. But stop the "website" tirade. A website doesn't "prove" anything. I've been raising sheep and goats for 30 years. My local vet calls ME for advice. 

Logic, it's not rocket science. And that's my last word on the subject.


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## Meg Z (Jun 8, 2004)

DocM said:


> I wasn't the one offering advice that could in any way be harmful to goats. .



I see I was unclear, and I apologize for that. I did not intend to imply that you were offering advice that was harmful. When I said, "it's something that can affect the health and welfare of our livestock", I meant the topic of worming, not any person's specific information.

And, I never check to see how many posts a person has. To me, that's irrelevant.

However, I would still be interested to see where your information comes from. I've done a search, and can't find anything. I have used cattle ivomectin on my sheep at the direction of the small ruminent vets at our state teaching hospital. I've also found directions for it's use on other sites. But I can't find a site that supports your information. _If there is a risk that I'm unaware of, I'd like to know._ All information has value, but as a Biologist, I just need to see hard data. Then I can decide on how I want to handle my flock. That's all. It's not personal. 

Meg


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## PygmyLover (Oct 12, 2006)

To me it has nothing to do with how many posts someone has but to do with their attitude when posting.

The internet is full of mis information and good information. Since you don't like siting websites do you have some you can scan and attach as an image? You can't fault people for wanting to know WHY. I am a why person. I don't use anything on my goats unless I know what it is and what it is for. And most of the time I have to rely on people to give me that information. People like those here. 

If you don't want to back yourself up, that is fine, but don't bash people because they have an oppion that is opposite yours. 

"Okay, Einstein.. apparently this is your little kingdom and the your perception of being RIGHT apparently overrules your desire to help anyone in this forum. Like I said, kill your animals, it's no skin off my nose. And BTW, yes, I'm a doctor. And you're what... someone with way too much time to kill? Good lord, it's just a message board - nobody has to take my advice. I'm not advocating anything that is potentially dangerous to livestock. Don't expect me to pay attention to any more of your ridiculous rants - I don't debate."

and that is where YOU brought up the amount of posts someone has! (though not stated that way I know.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

" If reading comprehension is a problem, that isn't something I can fix "

The only thing I questioned was your statement about Ivomec 1% being "deadly" to sheep. I thought it was pretty clear, since I quoted it for you. I TOTALLY agree with the quote above though.

Like Meg, I cant find anything that says Ivomec 1% given orally will kill sheep. I HAVE found studies where they gave 20 times the recommended dosage SQ with only minor effects. Also , like hoggfan , Ive had good luck using Levamisole, which is also safe to use on pregnant sheep


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## hoggfan (Sep 19, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> " If reading comprehension is a problem, that isn't something I can fix "
> 
> The only thing I questioned was your statement about Ivomec 1% being "deadly" to sheep. I thought it was pretty clear, since I quoted it for you. I TOTALLY agree with the quote above though.
> 
> Like Meg, I cant find anything that says Ivomec 1% given orally will kill sheep. I HAVE found studies where they gave 20 times the recommended dosage SQ with only minor effects. Also , like hoggfan , Ive had good luck using Levamisole, which is also safe to use on pregnant sheep


BEARFOOT are you using the same dosage of LEVAMISOL that I am??? 1ml per10lb


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

hoggfan said:


> BEARFOOT are you using the same dosage of LEVAMISOL that I am??? 1ml per10lb


What I did was calculate the dosage based on the amount of powder it takes per sheep if you follow the mixing directions. Then I weigh out enough powder for each dose I need. I then measure out the water in equal doses, but make the concentration stronger so I dont have to give so much volume. Ive had good results with this method but it requires a set of scales that are very accurate at VERY small weights. Mine will measure 1/10th of a grain. I already had the scales for reloading ammuntion. If I didnt already have them Id do as you are and follow the package directions. The main reason I do it the way I do is I often just worm a few at a time, and if I were mixing the whole package Id be wasting a lot since it cant be stored for very long.


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## StoneMaven (Aug 14, 2013)

DocM said:


> No, it will not work. Sheep wormer is way too low dosage for goats. Get regular cattle injectable for your goats, give it orally at a rate of 1 cc per 50 lbs of body weight. Sheep drench is .08% by volume, and cattle ivomec is 1.0% - you'd have to give your goats 10 times the amount you gave a similar sized sheep. Don't use horse paste wormers, they're even lower dosage. In the same vein, do NOT give sheep the injectable (orally) cattle concentration, it can kill them. Too many people advise owners that sheep and goat meds are interchangable, but they are way different animals.


I've used horse paste (because it is all that's available locally) at 3x the weight dose as recommended on the Fiasco farm site. I've had very good results.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

Why do folks dredge up 7 year old posts that are mostly arguments between 2 long banned posters? 

Friend, there are many far more current posts involving contemporary worming practice. Read through them and see where things are headed. Also, go to Valley Vets website and you can get far more effective wormers at lower cost than you likely can locally.


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## onebizebee (May 12, 2011)

Good lord a thread back from the dead! Zombies.....are coming... Seriously get a fecal done before you worm so you know what you are treating for. Then you can use the right medicine for the icky critter that needs to go!


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## Two Tracks (Jul 13, 2013)

Ahhh OK, I didn't see the part that said "2006" Geeze, no kidding ~why? 

Anyways, I was talking with my vet and he said about using Goat Safeguard on Sheep to use the same dosage on the bottle, so to say they are interchangeable? I thought it was odd because he gave me advice years ago saying to double the dose on the same product, so I'm left wondering which is correct? I've "overdosed" lambs on it, knowing it is a safe product. Thou, I wonder how well it actually works, I'll use Cydectin when they are 4 mo's and this seems to work well. ~Chris


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## StoneMaven (Aug 14, 2013)

Bret4207 said:


> Why do folks dredge up 7 year old posts that are mostly arguments between 2 long banned posters?
> 
> Because I'm new to the boards, bought sheep wormer by mistake, and wanted to know if it would work. This post came up in the search. For a dead thread, this one was rather helpful to me. I returned the sheep drench and bought the cattle drench.
> Thank you on your kind advice though.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

Well, at least now we know the "why?". What was common practice and state of the art 7-10 years back is real outdated now. I struggle to keep up on wormer to be honest. I sincerely suggest you read through the recent posts on wormers. It'll do you more good than any old posts.

Search functions on forums never work good for me either.


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