# Best Explanation for Obesity and Trouble Losing Weight



## MoonRiver

In just 7 minutes, Peter Attia gives what I think is the best explanation of why some obese people can't lose weight, even when eating the appropriate level of calories.

This is not new information, but the way Peter packages it makes it simple to understand. How to address it is a different issue.


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## painterswife

Excellent video


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## Alice In TX/MO

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt6035294/


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## barnbilder

Lots of things in that video that are just plain incorrect. There is no such thing as a person that can't lose weight. They don't exist. There are an awful lot of things that people can construct that will hamper their weight loss, but this person that "doesn't eat anything, and is still fat" just doesn't exist.


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## Alice In TX/MO

https://www.ketovale.com/ketogenic-diet-success-stories/


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## Alice In TX/MO

https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/success-stories


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## barnbilder




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## Alice In TX/MO

https://ketodietapp.com/Blog/post/2016/12/31/paige-s-keto-success-story


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## barnbilder

Alice In TX/MO said:


> https://ketodietapp.com/Blog/post/2016/12/31/paige-s-keto-success-story


Wow. First place winner. Virtually unchanged. Still overweight.


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## Alice In TX/MO

https://theweighwewere.com/70-pounds-lost-keto-saved-life/


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## MoonRiver

barnbilder said:


> Lots of things in that video that are just plain incorrect. There is no such thing as a person that can't lose weight. They don't exist. There are an awful lot of things that people can construct that will hamper their weight loss, but this person that "doesn't eat anything, and is still fat" just doesn't exist.


That was never said in the video. Maybe watch it again without any preconceived opinions. 

People seem to miss the point he was talking about obese people that changed to a good diet and still couldn't lose weight. He wasn't saying that was true for everyone, but that there is a subset of obese people who can't lose weight even when on a sound diet. For them to lose weight, the hormonal (insulin, hormone sensitive lipase, testosterone, estrogen, and cortisol) problems must be addressed first.


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## MoonRiver

Alice In TX/MO said:


> https://www.ketovale.com/ketogenic-diet-success-stories/


Did you watch and understand the video? A ketogenic diet is not likely to address hormonal problems. While diet may be a component, there are many other factors involved in addressing hormonal issues.


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## MoonRiver

barnbilder said:


> []


You consistently miss the issue. Weight loss is not simply calorie in/calorie out. Two people eating the exact same diet and same amount of calories have the same calories in, but a lot of things control calories out.

In the video which this thread is about, Peter discussed how for some obese people, hormones degrade the persons ability to burn fat, resulting in a lower calorie out. Lowering calories even further does not address the degraded fat burning process. By addressing hormonal issues, the ability to burn fat can be improved resulting in weight loss.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Insulin is a hormone. That is the main focus of the Ketogenic way of eating. The working premise is that high levels of insulin in folks who are insulin resistant cause fatty liver and other problems. Reduce carb intake to reduce the insulin response.


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## Clem

Overeating is an addiction. Just like heroin or crack.

They're all the time making excuses, too.

Fact is, some people are born with an addiction genetic disposition.

I suppose overeating is, in a way, harmless. At the same time, surely everyone realizes how much it damages their own body. Which is proof that it is an addiction. You know you're killing yourself, but get another helping anyway.


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## barnbilder

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Insulin is a hormone. That is the main focus of the Ketogenic way of eating. The working premise is that high levels of insulin in folks who are insulin resistant cause fatty liver and other problems. Reduce carb intake to reduce the insulin response.


Are you saying that insulin only responds to carbs?


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## Terri

The human bodies, in many respects, are like automobiles. And, automobiles are the most fuel efficient per mile at a certain speed. If you tool around at 20 miles per hour you will burn more fuel to cover that 20 miles than you would at 60 PH. By the same token, if you run your car at 90 MPH you will also burn more fuel per mile than if you are driving 60, as the engine is less efficient at 90 MPH than it is at 60 MPH. The cars are designed to be at their most efficient at 60 MPH.

My source is the US government, which did a lot of studies and made a lot of announcements back in the 70's, when fuel was harder to get.

What the gent in the video is talking about is making the body less efficient, so that it is using (wasting) extra fuel, which in the human bodies is calories. Like running an automobile at a less fuel efficient speed, you can run the human body at a less fuel efficient speed.

Now, the human body is at its' most efficient when calories are severely restricted. What happens is, the bodies' metabolism drops, the burning of calories for energy is reduced, and the person feels more lethargic.

This information regarding human metabolism speeding up and slowing down, and how to use it to facilitate weight loss is not new knowledge: this is from nursing textbooks from many years ago. The human body simply does not burn calories at a constant rate.

And that is why the keto diet tends to work: burning fat is a slow process that takes many hours while burning carbs is a fast process. When the carbs have all been burned then the fuel is simply gone and it is possible for a person's metabolic rate to drop. At this point the person's body burns fewer calories per hour. But, on a diet that is higher in fat and protein, the reduction of available fuel happens later and far less suddenly. It is less likely that the person's metabolism rate will drop.

Again, that is out of the nursing textbooks.

People who say "a calorie is a calorie" are not taking into effect the fat that a person's metabolic efficiency can be changed to be either more efficient or less efficient.

As usual, nobody has to agree with what I say. You are all as entitled to your opinions, we all are. But, I feel that my sources are good.


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## Terri

barnbilder said:


> Are you saying that insulin only responds to carbs?


 The body makes glucose when it digests a variety of nutrients, and insulin then transfers the glucose molecules across the cell barriers into the cells, and the individual cells then burn the glucose as fuel.

I am not entirely sure what you mean by "responds " , but the above is what happens.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Yes. That is if it is all working correctly.


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## MoonRiver

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Insulin is a hormone. That is the main focus of the Ketogenic way of eating. The working premise is that high levels of insulin in folks who are insulin resistant cause fatty liver and other problems. Reduce carb intake to reduce the insulin response.


And if you watched the video, you heard him say the problem was that some obese people don't convert fat to ATP well. 

If those people eat a ketogenic diet it's liable to put them in the ER. I know because I'm one of them. A low carb/high fat diet put me in the ER about 5 times before I figured out it was all the saturated fat in a low carb diet that was causing the problem. If you don't metabolize fat well, you need to restrict fat until the hormonal issues are addressed.


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## Terri

barnbilder said:


> Wow. First place winner. Virtually unchanged. Still overweight.


You consider a 12 pound per month weight loss for 4 solid months to be "virtually unchanged"?

Right.

I applaud her for losing 48 pounds.


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## MoonRiver

Clem said:


> Overeating is an addiction. Just like heroin or crack.
> 
> They're all the time making excuses, too.
> 
> Fact is, some people are born with an addiction genetic disposition.
> 
> I suppose overeating is, in a way, harmless. At the same time, surely everyone realizes how much it damages their own body. Which is proof that it is an addiction. You know you're killing yourself, but get another helping anyway.


Let me think about this. I could get advice from Clem on overeating or I could get advice from Peter Attia.

"Peter trained for five years at the Johns Hopkins Hospital in general surgery, where he was the recipient of several prestigious awards, including resident of the year, and the author of a comprehensive review of general surgery. He also spent two years at NIH as a surgical oncology fellow at the National Cancer Institute where his research focused on immune-based therapies for melanoma. He has since been mentored by some of the most experienced and innovative lipidologists, endocrinologists, gynecologists, sleep physiologists, and longevity scientists in the United States and Canada. Peter Attia"


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## Clem

"Clem lost a hundred pounds by accepting responsibility for how much he ate, and deciding whether or not he wanted to stay fat"

Keep on wondering, and keep on with personal attacks.
Besides from which, since you're determined not to take advise, it's not offered as advise. It's a simple statement of fact. Lot of people want to believe in magic. Very few care to believe they're responsible for their lives.

I, as opposed to your source, actually have overeaten. I still do, occasionally, because it's in my nature. But, I'm in control. I decide when to eat too much, and what to eat too much of. And I never make excuses.


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## MoonRiver

Let me take a stab at explaining this based on my fairly new understanding of genes and gene polymorphisms.

Let's say that someone has genes that make it difficult for his body to digest and metabolize fat. That doesn't necessarily mean the person will become fat, but that they have a propensity to become fat. Women, think BRCA1 and 2. If you have these gene polymorphisms (SNPs), it doesn't mean you will get breast cancer, but that you have a greatly increased chance. So the same thing with fat digesting and metabolizing SNPs, increased chance.

These are what are sometimes referred to as dirty genes. Epigenetics or environment tells a gene to express or not express. Epigenetics includes such things as exposure to mold or toxins, high blood pressure or type 2 diabetes, poor diet and nutrition, high levels of stress, etc. Over time, this exposure can cause your epigenetics to turn on the dirty gene. The theory is at some time in our past, turning the gene on was beneficial under these conditions.

So what Peter Attia is getting at is some obese people have genetic snps that can cause poor digestion and metabolizing of fats, but the genes may not be turned on because their epigentics are not that bad. For these people, a ketogenic diet should work fine. But for a subset of these people, not only do they have the dirty genes, but their epigenetics have become so screwed up over time that the dirty genes got turned on (expressed).

So how can the genes be turned off again. Evidently peter has had success using a hormonal approach. Once their hormones are functioning properly, their epigenetics is rebuilt and can turn the dirty genes back off again.

Being obese for a long period of time and getting sicker and sicker is likely what is causing the dirty gene to get turned on. People that get obese and after a year or 2 decide to lose it, probably aren't fighting their genes yet. It appears this takes a fair number of years before a person's epigenetics are damaged to the point that fat metabolism is degraded.

That now becomes an ever deepening hole. The harder the person tries to lose weight using a high fat diet, the more the body reacts to the undigested fat. The body gets more and more inflamed as the body uses precious energy fighting what it thinks are invaders. Now there is likelihood of metabolic illnesses like type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, etc. And the hole just keeps getting deeper.


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## MoonRiver

Clem said:


> "Clem lost a hundred pounds by accepting responsibility for how much he ate, and deciding whether or not he wanted to stay fat"
> 
> Keep on wondering, and keep on with personal attacks.
> Besides from which, since you're determined not to take advise, it's not offered as advise. It's a simple statement of fact. Lot of people want to believe in magic. Very few care to believe they're responsible for their lives.
> 
> I, as opposed to your source, actually have overeaten. I still do, occasionally, because it's in my nature. But, I'm in control. I decide when to eat too much, and what to eat too much of. And I never make excuses.


There was no personal attack. 

Dr Attia explained why some subset of obese people have great difficulty losing weight. You didn't address anything in the video.


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## Terri

Moon River, everything sounded excellent until the last 2 paragraphs. The last 2 paragraphs are theory, and not proven.


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## Clem

When I was 19, I was in a pretty bad industrial accident, and my normal activity was severely curtailed. I went from around 175 pounds to over 300. I have a picture, taken with one of those instamatic cameras, of me and my first wife. I was huge.

I lost and gained, lost and gained. Since my body eventually recovered, after 15 months of no work, wearing casts, and eating home-made goodies from a woman I loved so much, I'd never have turned down her cooking, I went back to work, but never lost that weight, at least not all of it. Sometime around 1981, I was pretty close to 200, though. At any rate, in 2010, I needed to donate a kidney, but the doctor at UNC looked at me and told me they wouldn't even talk to me til I got under 250. I didn't have any idea how much I weighed, but that night, I got on a scale for the first time in a long time. I actually had to stop at a Walmart on the way home from UNC to buy a scale! When you're fat, you don't really want to weigh yourself, it's easier to just make up a lie. "I weigh more than I should, but I'm not *that* fat" sort of lie. Anyway, I weighed 288 pounds.

By the time I broke through 250, a couple months later, it was too late. They'd perforated her colon, and she never recovered from the e coli, and c diff. When I signed the papers to take her off life support, I was at 222 pounds. 2 months later, I broke 200 for the first time in 40 years.

I've stayed there. I don't expect everybody to have the determination I do. As a dear friend once said "We're not all as goal driven as you are" That's OK. I don't want anybody to be like me. And I certainly do realize that I've been blessed in that my health has held up for as long as it has.

However, if one person could read my ideas that you alone are responsible for what you eat, and say "That makes sense to me" and act on it, and that person lose a hundred pounds, wouldn't that be a good thing? As opposed to say "it's beyond my control" sort of stuff. Yes? No? I'm a real live person, telling a real story of what actually happened. I'm not getting paid, not am I promoting my books. All in all, I'm getting a bunch of crap for being honest. Why? Because I think it's possible that more than just me alone are responsible for what they eat, and can act on that?

When I lived in Danville, I owned a restaurant, and some apartments in 5 Forks. Lots and lots of crackheads there. Some were extremely intelligent. Most, not so much so. There was a really nice woman there who I talked to a lot. Except for her being a crackhead, we could have been good friends. I asked every single one that I was close enough to, why are you doing this to yourself? And of the literally hundreds of crackheads I talked to, she alone said "I like the high, but hate the life" Every other one was like "I can't help it"

When I eat too much, it's because I've chosen this day, this time, and this meal. Never, never will I be addicted to anything.
BTW, everybody on my father's side is, was, and always have been seriously overweight. So, I could claim "genetics"

Once again, I know everybody is not the same. I know my experience is somewhat anomalous, but as to the why of that, we'll disagree. And I accept that some people will get sick if they don't eat, or overeat, or eat different food, or whatever. But I firmly believe that a huge majority of people will lose weight if they just start being honest with themselves, and quit eating so damned much.


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## painterswife

No one is saying you are not responsible for what you eat. No one.

We are saying that different foods effect different people in different ways. Health, Satiety, energy, hormonal etc. Those things help or hinder your willpower and heath. If eating a certain way is healthy for me and helps me to meet my goals what is the problem with it?


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## Terri

Genetics *DOES* have an effect, but what you do (and did!) about it is up to you.

Looking back, I have always had trouble with my blood sugar. The doctor put me on a high carb diet and I got a LOT worse: when I started eating 6 small meals a day I got much better. The base problem remains because my genetics have not changed, but I no longer have low blood sugar.

Lunch today was soup and half a sandwich. At about 3:30 I shall eat another small meal. Now that I know better, I do better, and I feel much better because of it!

Many people here do well with fewer meals but high fat ones. I do not. But, more power to them, and Kudos for finding a diet that works for them!

And, Kudos to you, Clem, for finding what works for you and loosingthe weight you needed to lose.


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## Clem

painterswife said:


> No one is saying you are not responsible for what you eat. No one.
> 
> We are saying that different foods effect different people in different ways. Health, Satiety, energy, hormonal etc. Those things help or hinder your willpower and heath. If eating a certain way is healthy for me and helps me to meet my goals what is the problem with it?


Go back, see my entry in this thread, then the snippy quote/reply, which brought on further detail of my experience. Nowhere in there did I say there was a problem with the way you eat. I even went to great detail to point out the way I eat. So, I'm not sure exactly what you're asking.

However, in a general, round-about way, I'm stating what(to me) seems to be the obvious. And not really sure why anyone wouldn't see that. I constantly point out that I agree that everybody is not the same, and that in some cases, people might get sick if they change their eating habits, etc. However, the greater majority of people will lose weight if they eat less. That's just simple math. I am not responsible for facts. They just are.

And once again, everybody is not the same. And I agree that my own experience is somewhat anomalous. *BUT *why are so many people agreeable to a diet that lets them eat a lot of fat, or whatever, as opposed to just not eating as much? Remember all those various and sundry diets that caught on? Scarsdale, I think was one. Is it possible that people actually want to eat, even when they're trying to lose weight? Of course it is!! Everybody wants to eat. I wish I was eating right now!! But, I've seen the results.

What's the use? This is just like politics. One side can't see the other side's point of view. This is what I did. This is how it worked. No magic. No cult. No pills, or special food. I'll even dig around and find pictures, if anybody don't believe me. But, I'm sorry, it really was that easy. And I know everybody can't do it. BUT, I think many can. Overeating is a choice for most people, just like drinking is. Then, once you're hooked, it's no longer a choice. That was the point of my original entry in this particular thread.


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## Terri

Some people find that a high-fat diet kills their appetite.

My opinion is, whatever works.


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## barnbilder

Terri said:


> You consider a 12 pound per month weight loss for 4 solid months to be "virtually unchanged"?
> 
> Right.
> 
> I applaud her for losing 48 pounds.



I will admit that I didn't read much of that article. I mainly looked at the pictures. The pictures were of a girl that looked like she had lost maybe 10 or 15 pounds. Still had a long way to go in her cut, if she was cutting. If that was the winner of the weight loss contest, it must not be a good weight loss plan. I was expecting someone in a body building or swimsuit competition. Some of the other groups I am in, I have watched people go from really obese to competing. That is with real weight loss groups.

I consider 12 pounds a month weight loss to be neither responsible or sustainable. There is a very good chance that a person losing that kind of weight would drastically stall after a couple to three months. Unless you were just morbidly obese, like 600 pounds or something. A good goal to plug in is a pound a week. Two tops. That is a calorie reduction that won't mess you up and stall you out, and one that you can maintain for as long as it takes to reach your target weight. I commend anyone for trying to take control of their body. But 12 pounds a month is going to lead to trouble unless that person figures out what optimal weight loss looks and feels like.

Oh well. I am bulking, need to go crush a thousand calories or so.


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## MoonRiver

Terri said:


> Moon River, everything sounded excellent until the last 2 paragraphs. The last 2 paragraphs are theory, and not proven.


The 1st part was applying what I know of genetics to what Peter Attia said.

The last 2 paragraphs were attempting to apply genetic theory as well as Peter's statement about degraded fat metabolism to my situation. I have several SNPs that indicate poor fat digestion and metabolizing. When I eat too much fat, I get massive inflammation from fat leaking through gut wall which results in stroke level blood pressure spikes. That's something I wished Peter had mentioned. When a person can't digest or metabolize fat, what happens to the fat? Undigested fat can leak into the gut and make its way into the bloodstream where the liver tries to handle it. The other is that the mitochondria reject the fat instead of burning it for energy. Fat that doesn't get used gets stored. So in my case, a high fat diet can make me sick and also make me fat.

I've always thought that something happened when I was 18-19 that triggered all this, but have never been able to identify what it was. I gained almost 70 lbs in a little over a year and went from fit and athletic to tired and fat. I've got 50 years of fighting fat and losing the war, even though I have won some battles. I am down 80 lbs, but every day is a struggle to not gain it back.


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## Terri

Barnbilder, people are often capable of more than you think they are. Other people's limits will be different from yours or from mine.


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## Terri

Moonriver, it is possible something DID happen when you were 18. Lethargy has so many possible causes, though, it would be hard to say what.


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## barnbilder

It is not about personal limits. You push that hard and you are going to crash and stall. Doesn't matter who you are. Whup. Gotta go suck down another 1000 cals.


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## Terri

barnbilder said:


> It is not about personal limits. You push that hard and you are going to crash and stall. Doesn't matter who you are. Whup. Gotta go suck down another 1000 cals.


Nope.

You might, not everyone will.


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## barnbilder

Ermmm, unless you are some kind of mutant, it pretty much works the same for anyone. And it will until there is some major shift in human evolution.


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## painterswife

barnbilder said:


> Ermmm, unless you are some kind of mutant, it pretty much works the same for anyone. And it will until there is some major shift in human evolution.


Nope. Metabolism proves you wrong. It is not equal across all people.


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## barnbilder

https://bodyrecomposition.com/fat-l...-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html/

https://www.fitwatch.com/blog/5-tips-to-avoid-plateaus-and-metabolic-slowdown

http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2014/07/11/need-know-metabolic-adaptation/


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## MoonRiver

barnbilder said:


> Ermmm, unless you are some kind of mutant, it pretty much works the same for anyone. And it will until there is some major shift in human evolution.


Then why isn't everyone the same height, have the same IQ, and the same color eyes? Why do only some people get cancer? Why do some people live to 110 and others die at 70 of natural causes? Why do some people have 6 toes?

What do you think the video was about? It was talking about people who have trouble digesting and metabolizing fat, because the ability to produce the needed enzymes has been degraded. A normal person eats fat and it is digested and metabolized; a person with degraded enzymes eats fat and only some of it is digested and only some of that is burned for fuel. The undigested fat causes massive inflammation and the fat rejected as fuel gets stored as fat.

So for 2 people that eat the same amount of fat, the one without the degraded enzymes digests all the fat and it gets burned for fuel. The other person feels like crap from the inflammation and suffers fatigue because much of the fat can't be burned and on top of that, gains weight because the rejected fat that wasn't burned has to be stored as fat. As I understand it, the body doesn't produce enough of a certain enzyme that allows the fat to get into the mitochondria to be converted to ATP (energy).

A genetic mutation is a rare polymorphism of a gene and a SNP is a polymorphism that occurs in a larger percent of the population (I think it is either 2 or 3%). So in a way, what we are talking about IS a mutation, but it occurs with enough frequency to be called a SNP.

It often occurs at a higher rate in a given population, so a SNP could be specific to a certain region. As the people migrated away, intermarried with people from other regions, the SNP gets spread out through the population. Think of something like Sickle Cell Anemia which primarily occurs in people of African ancestry, which is also caused by SNPs.


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## barnbilder

painterswife said:


> Nope. Metabolism proves you wrong. It is not equal across all people.


If you are in fact a human, your metabolism works the same as any other human's. It can change, or be changed, just like anyone else. Running a huge caloric deficit will cause your metabolism to react the same as anyone else. Unless you are an alien or a mutant or some kind of weird hybrid species.


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## painterswife

barnbilder said:


> If you are in fact a human, your metabolism works the same as any other human's. It can change, or be changed, just like anyone else. Running a huge caloric deficit will cause your metabolism to react the same as anyone else. Unless you are an alien or a mutant or some kind of weird hybrid species.


No everyone's metabolism does not work the same way. We are not carbon copy people with the same fat in the same places or the same genes. That is why some people have type 2 diabetes and some have type 1 and some have none. You effort to reduce everything to being the same shows that you don't understand that.


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## Terri

Barnbilder, "CAN" work this way and "MUST" work this way are 2 very different things! Because we all have a choice in the matter. A weight loss of over 10 pounds a month "CAN" cause a person to crash, but there are plenty of people who lose that much weight and do not crash.


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## Terri

barnbilder said:


> https://bodyrecomposition.com/fat-l...-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html/
> 
> https://www.fitwatch.com/blog/5-tips-to-avoid-plateaus-and-metabolic-slowdown


https://www.fitwatch.com/blog/5-tips-to-avoid-plateaus-and-metabolic-slowdownLook at the title of this one. Even they use the term "can" and they WROTE this piece.

Not "must", but "can"


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## barnbilder

Everyone CAN change their metabolism. Has to be something within the limits of humans. To do so, everyone MUST do the things necessary to cause that change. I have had 1,400 calories today. Loved every one of them. I am on a sustainable diet plan with absolutely predictable results. I couldn't eat 2,800 calories a day if I hadn't worked so hard to change my metabolism.


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## Terri

*


barnbilder said:



Everyone CAN change their metabolism. Has to be something within the limits of humans. To do so, everyone MUST do the things necessary to cause that change. I have had 1,400 calories today. Loved every one of them. I am on a sustainable diet plan with absolutely predictable results. I couldn't eat 2,800 calories a day if I hadn't worked so hard to change my metabolism.

Click to expand...

Then what the heck have we been arguing about? Every time I have said that the keto diet keep your metabolism up on high you have replied that the keto diet will cause weight gain!

*


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## Terri

Keto does many things. Because fat and protein are digested slowly, a person's blood sugar is less likely to drop too low. This is proven medical fact, as is the fact that a person's metabolism will often drop if their blood sugar goes too low. .

Also, many people, on this site and others, have reported that the keto diet decreases their appetite, and so they report that they are only consuming about 1200 calories a day. I see no reason not to believe them.


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## Danaus29

Clem said:


> And once again, everybody is not the same. And I agree that my own experience is somewhat anomalous. *BUT *why are so many people agreeable to a diet that lets them eat a lot of fat, or whatever, as opposed to just not eating as much? Remember all those various and sundry diets that caught on? Scarsdale, I think was one. Is it possible that people actually want to eat, even when they're trying to lose weight? Of course it is!! Everybody wants to eat. I wish I was eating right now!! But, I've seen the results.


Wanting to eat just to eat and feeling like you are starving complete with stomach pain and headaches are two totally different things. When your whole body feels hungry you simply cannot be efficient in anything you try to do. I have serious problems when I go too long without eating. After 10 hours my stomach gets severe pain, I feel sluggish, I get cranky and stupid. It's so bad and so obvious that my family can tell when I haven't eaten for a while. So should I eat meals which make the problem worse or meals which make me feel satisfied and not cranky for a longer period of time? I could set and eat my 1800 calories in foods which make me feel worse or foods which make me feel satisfied longer. By studying a keto diet and gradually changing my eating habits toward it I am noticing a big difference. High carb foods cause me to "burn out" and get sluggish and cranky faster. Higher fat foods (No way am I going to eat plain coconut oil though, that gags me) such as cottage cheese, cheese and nuts, peanut butter, nuts, keep me feeling satisfied longer and help stave off the stomach aches and headache. I have to drain the grease off meat because I can't stand eating it.

One thing I cannot do is go a couple days without food. My heart starts pounding and feeling like it skips beats. After only 48 hours without food I feel like I am dying! My head hurts so bad I can hardly see and I can't concentrate on doing anything. It takes more than a week to start to feel "normal" again. Sure, a few days fasting every so often helps some people keep their weight at an ideal level. But in my case it is not worth the price. 

People are different. Daily diets are not a "one-size-fits-all"! What one person can eat, can make another person quite sick or kill them. Even throughout your own life your dietary needs change. Human metabolism is not constant. It changes with age, medical conditions, diet and activity. The problem is in finding a diet that suits your metabolism at the point where you are when you decide to lose weight.

If my metabolism was the same as when I was a teenager, I could still eat 5000 calories a day in Big Macs, Coke and cookies and still weigh only 118 pounds.


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## barnbilder

Terri said:


> Keto does many things. Because fat and protein are digested slowly, a person's blood sugar is less likely to drop too low. This is proven medical fact, as is the fact that a person's metabolism will often drop if their blood sugar goes too low. .
> 
> Also, many people, on this site and others, have reported that the keto diet decreases their appetite, and so they report that they are only consuming about 1200 calories a day. I see no reason not to believe them.


That is conflicted information. If the Keto diet affected the metabolism in a positive way (the way calculated weight loss and muscle building exercise can) then people should be able to eat more calories. They should want and need more calories. What gives? It can only be one. !,200 calories a day is going to be far too low for most people to lose weight effectively. That is too big of a deficit. People can't maintain that kind of deficit, typically without cheating, or negatively impacting their metabolism, or in some cases both, in which case weight gain could occur. Unless you have an ideal weight of 98 pounds or something.


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## Terri

barnbilder said:


> They should want and need more calories.


Appetite suppressants do not work that way.


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## barnbilder

Terri said:


> Appetite suppressants do not work that way.


So you are saying that the keto diet does nothing for weight loss and to promote a fit body? Thanks. If you lose weight and build muscle, your body will burn more calories, you will need more calories and you will want more calories. Why would anyone want to suppress their appetite?


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## Terri

barnbilder said:


> So you are saying that the keto diet does nothing for weight loss and to promote a fit body? Thanks. If you lose weight and build muscle, your body will burn more calories, you will need more calories and you will want more calories. Why would anyone want to suppress their appetite?


That is nothing like what I said. I think that you know that.

And, for a dieter to wish to be less hungry is a no-brainer.


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## Skamp

barnbilder said:


> So you are saying that the keto diet does nothing for weight loss and to promote a fit body? Thanks. If you lose weight and build muscle, your body will burn more calories, you will need more calories and you will want more calories. Why would anyone want to suppress their appetite?



This I think leads to a point I’ve been subtly trying to lead to. 

Keto, LCHF, Vegetarian, Vegan, and the associated diet are extremes on the bell curve. Sure, we are all different but not as different as most would propose. 

There is an approach that addresses calories, macro balance, and micro balance that has been developed by the greatest minds this planet has to offer over decades. It’s never mentioned here other than an inference to SAD. 

Enjoy your uniqueness, and kill yourself by listening to a snake oil salesmen.


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## barnbilder

Terri said:


> That is nothing like what I said. I think that you know that.
> 
> And, for a dieter to wish to be less hungry is a no-brainer.


If a dieter is hungry, it isn't much of a diet. The end goal should be being able to smash lots of calories without being obese.


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## Alice In TX/MO

The goal is health.


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## barnbilder

Alice In TX/MO said:


> The goal is health.


Yes. Being able to smash a ton of calories because you are fit and active is very healthy. Being locked in a diet that is so restrictive that it slows down your metabolism and activity level to the point that weight loss ceases is not healthy. When it creates a cycle in which calories have to be dropped too low to achieve balanced micro-nutrients, while still achieving weight loss, it is also not healthy.


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## Terri

barnbilder said:


> Yes. Being able to smash a ton of calories because you are fit and active is very healthy. Being locked in a diet that is so restrictive that it slows down your metabolism and activity level to the point that weight loss ceases is not healthy. When it creates a cycle in which calories have to be dropped too low to achieve balanced micro-nutrients, while still achieving weight loss, it is also not healthy.


In other words, you have decided to agree with us. Eating calories that are slowly absorbed by eating more protein and fat, as well as eating the necessary amount of carbs and veggies, is healthy. This is also known as the keto diet


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## barnbilder

Everyone caught up in Keto, focusing on the positive changes that keto makes, yet ignoring a key fact, I have said it before, and will say it again. To lose weight there must be a caloric deficit. Created by an increase in activity, or a decrease in calories, one or the other, or both. 

When this deficit is achieved and weight loss is occurring, any diet becomes more "keto" by default, because you are burning fat from your body. All the carbs you laid down are stored as fat, so when they come off, it is burned as fat. Any benefits that could from the keto diet will be coming from the fact that you just added half your deficit back in fat, (you will burn muscle too). If you lose a pound of fat, it was like adding a pound of fat to your diet. So essentially the same as eating a pound of butter so you could achieve ketosis or whatever.

Weight loss is about deficits, but more is not better, if that deficit is too high, you will crash, stall, or hurt yourself. If you calculate it carefully, you can achieve your goals. Healthy weight, bodybuilding competition, whatever.


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## painterswife

I suspect barnbilder is young and a male. He has no real experience with aging, hormonal changes and illnesses that effect your metabolism and cell functions. That is all I really need to understand about his ideas on my dietary goals.


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## barnbilder

I am old as dirt and spent most of my life obese, and yes it got worse with age. The main reason it gets worse with age is muscle loss. The metabolism changes caused by muscle loss affect hormones and lead to illness. That is why I body build now, and I feel better than I have for the last 40 years. I tried keto back when it was atkins. Didn't work. Worked, but not as well as a real diet plan, and not sustainable. I do like bacon though.

My wife has pretty much the same story, and in spite of metabolic disorders she looks like a model now that she found a real diet plan that works. She is who showed me the light. And yes, it was easier for me, that is the benefit of lean muscle mass. Men have more of it, usually by default. But it's not about how good you look it is about how good you feel. You get your self right and you will feel better, no matter how old, what sex, how many kids, what kind of debilitating disease.

You can climb over an obstacle or hide behind an excuse, the choice is yours. Or you can just insult me, so that I sound wrong, which would make you right.


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## painterswife

So you found a plan that works for you. Others found what works for them. Yet you are here telling them how wrong they are instead of starting your own threads and discussing that.


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## barnbilder

If your plan works for you it is because it is the same plan I am using. But the whole fat/carb thing is inconsequential, unless you are diabetic or something. If a keto diet works for you, it did so by creating a caloric deficit. Too much deficit is not optimal for weight loss. It will give you quick results, but those results will not last long enough to reach optimal weight.


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## Alice In TX/MO

http://hmpg.net/


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## painterswife

barnbilder said:


> If your plan works for you it is because it is the same plan I am using. But the whole fat/carb thing is inconsequential, unless you are diabetic or something. If a keto diet works for you, it did so by creating a caloric deficit. Too much deficit is not optimal for weight loss. It will give you quick results, but those results will not last long enough to reach optimal weight.


All you can talk about is caloric deficit. You don't seem to even read what we write.

How do you think we get a caloric deficit and stick to it and at the same time eat in a way that improves our health. Keto. No where did I say quick weight loss. You need to step back and read what people are saying instead of making assumptions.


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## Alice In TX/MO

http://hmpg.net/


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## Terri

barnbilder said:


> Weight loss is about deficits, but more is not better, if that deficit is too high, you will crash, stall, or hurt yourself.


The keto diet does this.



barnbilder said:


> Everyone caught up in Keto, focusing on the positive changes that keto makes, yet ignoring a key fact, I have said it before, and will say it again. To lose weight there must be a caloric deficit. Created by an increase in activity, or a decrease in calories, one or the other, or both. .


The keto diet does this also. We have all been telling you this.


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## MoonRiver

barnbilder said:


> Too much deficit is not optimal for weight loss. It will give you quick results, but those results will not last long enough to reach optimal weight.


There are no scientific studies to back that up.


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## Terri

MoonRiver said:


> There are no scientific studies to back that up.


Actually there are. BUT, the key word is "optimal". Yes you will lose weight on a very restricted diet, but it is EASIER to stay on your diet if it is only semi-strict, partly because people are less hungry and partly because it is less likely that your metabolic rate will slow down.

Either diet will work, and work well. It is just that one diet is called "optimal" because people tend to stay on it for longer.


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## MoonRiver

barnbilder said:


> ..I have said it before, and will say it again. To lose weight there must be a caloric deficit. Created by an increase in activity, or a decrease in calories, one or the other, or both.


And you were wrong before and you are wrong again. That is why so many people don't succeed at reaching their goal weight - they believe this rubbish.

If you took the time to watch the video maybe you could post something relevant instead of just pushing your own opinion.


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## MoonRiver

Terri said:


> Actually there are. BUT, the key word is "optimal". Yes you will lose weight on a very restricted diet, but it is EASIER to stay on your diet if it is only semi-strict, partly because people are less hungry and partly because it is less likely that your metabolic rate will slow down.
> 
> Either diet will work, and work well. It is just that one diet is called "optimal" because people tend to stay on it for longer.


Dr Jason Fung has done the research and says there are no studies showing there is a benefit to losing weight slowly. If there are studies that show otherwise, I would be glad to look at them.

How someone goes about losing weight may have an impact. I don't believe people who lose weight very quickly through fasting are any more likely to regain the weight than someone who lost it slowly. It probably comes down to hormones as to whether someone is successful or not and fasting usually has a positive hormonal effect.


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## Terri

I think it may depend on how you define "benefit".

Personally, I am more likely to stay on a diet if I am not miserable 24/7. And, as I recall from those long-ago nursing classes, that is the biggest benefit of losing weight more slowly: people stay on the diet longer and often (not always) end up losing more weight.

But, that was a long time ago, and I have forgotten what the textbooks gave as sources.

At any rate, in the end it is all up to the decisions that the dieter makes.


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## Vjklander

I pretty much have to agree with BB here. I know there are myriad approaches to weight loss, but I can only speak with certainty about my own experience. In Feb '17, I hit 399.9 on the scale and had got to the point where I couldn't turn over in bed without great difficulty, so I decided to lose weight. Sounds so simple eh? I just decided to lose weight. I started eating just a little thing of Activia yogurt for breakfast around 9 am or so (with a dash of cinnamon), and a plate for dinner at around 7 pm. I didn't change the meals much, just started using a salad plate instead of a dinner plate to enforce portion control. I use very little fat or sugar in my cooking - absolutely minimum. In conjunction, I know this guy with a 10+ acre farmette with a ton of scrub cedar and those ghastly grey things with the little red berries. So I started clearing the scrub. I started out doing about 30 minutes worth, but got up to doing 3 hours a day easily. I'm a little dependent on the season for that as I do work from home, so when it gets dark early and gets cold I can't work as much. I got down to the mid 3teens by December and basically stayed there until daylight savings and a little warmer weather, so I'm now down to 305.3. My BP is also much better as well. I'm trying to break under 300 by May 24th, then set a new milestone then. I also keep bottles of 2% milk, v8 juice and OJ in the fridge and just take sips during the day, maybe every 2 hours or so when I let the dogs out. I drink lots of coffee during the day, and lots of water when I'm out working. And a glass or 2 of Fruity Red Sangria at night. Like I said, that is what I did and am doing and it works for me. I also came across a neighbor who wanted 5 big oak trees removed from his property, so I've been cutting and splitting wood for a day or 2 on most weekends. The bottom line is one has to eat less and work more. YMMV


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## MoonRiver

Vjklander said:


> YMMV


So you didn't watch the video either I take it.


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## Vjklander

MoonRiver said:


> So you didn't watch the video either I take it.


I watched the whole thing. Pretty much gibberish.


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## MoonRiver

Vjklander said:


> I watched the whole thing. Pretty much gibberish.


If it was gibberish, why comment?


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## barnbilder

MoonRiver said:


> If it was gibberish, why comment?


Is this thread closed to comments?


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## barnbilder

Vjklander said:


> I pretty much have to agree with BB here. I know there are myriad approaches to weight loss, but I can only speak with certainty about my own experience. In Feb '17, I hit 399.9 on the scale and had got to the point where I couldn't turn over in bed without great difficulty, so I decided to lose weight. Sounds so simple eh? I just decided to lose weight. I started eating just a little thing of Activia yogurt for breakfast around 9 am or so (with a dash of cinnamon), and a plate for dinner at around 7 pm. I didn't change the meals much, just started using a salad plate instead of a dinner plate to enforce portion control. I use very little fat or sugar in my cooking - absolutely minimum. In conjunction, I know this guy with a 10+ acre farmette with a ton of scrub cedar and those ghastly grey things with the little red berries. So I started clearing the scrub. I started out doing about 30 minutes worth, but got up to doing 3 hours a day easily. I'm a little dependent on the season for that as I do work from home, so when it gets dark early and gets cold I can't work as much. I got down to the mid 3teens by December and basically stayed there until daylight savings and a little warmer weather, so I'm now down to 305.3. My BP is also much better as well. I'm trying to break under 300 by May 24th, then set a new milestone then. I also keep bottles of 2% milk, v8 juice and OJ in the fridge and just take sips during the day, maybe every 2 hours or so when I let the dogs out. I drink lots of coffee during the day, and lots of water when I'm out working. And a glass or 2 of Fruity Red Sangria at night. Like I said, that is what I did and am doing and it works for me. I also came across a neighbor who wanted 5 big oak trees removed from his property, so I've been cutting and splitting wood for a day or 2 on most weekends. The bottom line is one has to eat less and work more. YMMV


You are doing great. You've got this. Watch out for drinkable calories. The water is fine and coffee is life, just don't put too much milk and sugar in it. OJ can have a lot of calories. Sometimes it is about allowing yourself the lesser of two evils to make it through the day though. If you hit a plateau, you may want to start tracking. It's amazing the places we get calories that we take for granted. Right now, you can burn a lot of calories just moving around a little. As you get lighter, your moving around will become easier and you will burn less calories doing the things you do. The good news is you will be able to do more things, and feel good doing them, and it sounds like you are already seeing that.

I did pretty much similar to what you are doing. Just made a few changes. For me, I cut out soft drinks and debbie cakes, then moved to portion control. When that was no longer doing it I went to Macros Inc. website and calculated my calories, then downloaded Myfitnesspal and started tracking. Watched the pounds shed and the weight increase while lifting. I had started lifting weights before tracking, was getting weaker instead of stronger. Got my protein right by tracking and started building muscle mass, while losing weight. Bottomed out, so now I am in a bulk, trying to gain a pound a month or so for maybe six months. Having a hard time with it, the better the weather gets the more calories I am burning, so it is hard to actually gain anything, I keep dialing up the calories trying to get ahead of maintenance level. I have muscles sticking out with veins popped out all over that I didn't know I had. You can be there, too. 

It is amazing how much better I feel. All of those aches and pains, the bad back, hips, knees, feet, the feeling that my eyes were going to pop out while I tied my shoes, the heart pounding in the middle of the night, the blood whooshing in my ears while I tried to sleep, the getting out of breath just trying to get comfortable in bed. That stuff is all a thing of the past. Feel like I am a teenager again. Feel better than I did when I was a teenager, because I ate like a fool when I was a teenager. Too much of all the wrong things.

But keep it up, seriously, you owe it to yourself, it is the biggest gift you can give to yourself. So do it and don't fall victim to the "it's mah genes workin' against me" cop-out. I am from a whole family of fatties. I believed that mess up until I made some changes. They all either hate me or think I have cancer, or worms, or something. I could care less what they think, the way I feel outvotes them when it comes to how I live my life.


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## Vjklander

barnbilder said:


> You are doing great. You've got this. Watch out for drinkable calories. The water is fine and coffee is life, just don't put too much milk and sugar in it. OJ can have a lot of calories. Sometimes it is about allowing yourself the lesser of two evils to make it through the day though. If you hit a plateau, you may want to start tracking. It's amazing the places we get calories that we take for granted. Right now, you can burn a lot of calories just moving around a little. As you get lighter, your moving around will become easier and you will burn less calories doing the things you do. The good news is you will be able to do more things, and feel good doing them, and it sounds like you are already seeing that.
> 
> I did pretty much similar to what you are doing. Just made a few changes. For me, I cut out soft drinks and debbie cakes, then moved to portion control. When that was no longer doing it I went to Macros Inc. website and calculated my calories, then downloaded Myfitnesspal and started tracking. Watched the pounds shed and the weight increase while lifting. I had started lifting weights before tracking, was getting weaker instead of stronger. Got my protein right by tracking and started building muscle mass, while losing weight. Bottomed out, so now I am in a bulk, trying to gain a pound a month or so for maybe six months. Having a hard time with it, the better the weather gets the more calories I am burning, so it is hard to actually gain anything, I keep dialing up the calories trying to get ahead of maintenance level. I have muscles sticking out with veins popped out all over that I didn't know I had. You can be there, too.
> 
> It is amazing how much better I feel. All of those aches and pains, the bad back, hips, knees, feet, the feeling that my eyes were going to pop out while I tied my shoes, the heart pounding in the middle of the night, the blood whooshing in my ears while I tried to sleep, the getting out of breath just trying to get comfortable in bed. That stuff is all a thing of the past. Feel like I am a teenager again. Feel better than I did when I was a teenager, because I ate like a fool when I was a teenager. Too much of all the wrong things.
> 
> But keep it up, seriously, you owe it to yourself, it is the biggest gift you can give to yourself. So do it and don't fall victim to the "it's mah genes workin' against me" cop-out. I am from a whole family of fatties. I believed that mess up until I made some changes. They all either hate me or think I have cancer, or worms, or something. I could care less what they think, the way I feel outvotes them when it comes to how I live my life.


Thanks! I agree with all of that, except I wouldn't consider adulterating my coffee ...


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## barnbilder

I put goat milk and Stevia in mine. Sometimes protein powder if I need protein. We run water over the fresh ground coffee in the machine a couple more times through the day and add a product called caffix. It adds a few carbs, but makes a good flavored hot beverage with decreasing caffeine as it gets closer to bedtime. (A good nights sleep means a lot, for a lot of reasons). There is a product called Nustevia, it is Stevia chocolate syrup, very good in coffee, on pancakes, anything you would put choclate or syrup of any kind on. It has tricky pacakaging, a ridiculous small serving size has zero calories, but I am sure it has some, so I try not to go crazy with it. I have added PBII powder to coffee, needing protein at the end of the day with surprisingly good results as well. Sometimes when I need to add protein it's because I am over on fat, (otherwise I would be eating a slab of meat) so I will put some chocolate whey protein in the coffee in place of milk. 

For weight loss, black would be preferable, but watch out for that whole caffeine keeping you awake thing. Sleeping is free calorie deficit without cravings time, if you are in a cut. Also muscle building time. Don't mess with sleep.


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## Damion

For fast lose weight breakfast is what helps you start your day on the right track, the best heartiest breakfasts are ones that will fill you up, keep you satisfied and stave off cravings later in the day...


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## Terri

Welcome to the weight loss forum!


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## Alice In TX/MO

Your mileage may vary. 

I don’t normally eat breakfast. If I do, I am ravenous by lunchtime. If I skip breakfast, lunch happens between 11:30 and 1:00, and I am not ravenous.


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## muleskinner2

You don't see many overweight people in poor third world countries.


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