# survivalist mythology



## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

On another thread, a question about survivalist mythology arose, about what would happen after the shtf, or teotwawki occured. The poster (who I hope will respond here... didn't want to pollute that thread with extra thread drift) had equated the believe of survivalist preppers with a near religious belief system, that the golden horde (zombie horde) would swoop down on the countryside.

Well, I've never thought that such a thought was held (at least by me) with a zealous religious conviction. I just couldn't imagine the golden horde doing anything But swarming out. Last two hurricanes that threatened Houston had the golden horde swarming thru my little town, a continuous car jam from Houston to Texarkana. Every town along the way was stripped of gas, food, and other supplies within hours. "This" was during a peaceful hopeful time...

I'm a student of history, and know the consequences of failed political systems, failed empires, failure because of natural and man made disasters.

Reckon my question is:
What do you think will happen if our civilization collapses? Name your poison, it doesn't matter what caused it... once the oil stops flowing, the pumps are shut down, the electric grid is down, all the stores are closed (for lack of goods)... and it's pretty obvious things won't be returning to normal for many months or year or ever? Kumbaya or Gnashing of Teeth?
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Will the people who don't have food stored and don't have food to harvest, simply sit at home and starve, or will they do like people throughout history have done... spread out and search for sustenance.

Someone can talk me out of my views, I'd glady give up my gloomy doomies...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> will they do like people throughout history have done... *spread out and search for sustenance*.





> Someone can talk me out of my views, I'd glady give up my gloomy doomies


Say something I don't agree with and I'll be happy to try and talk you out of it


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

I simply don't realistically see a full blown collapse of society occurring. However that doesn't mean I don't prep like it might.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

I think that those that have somewhere they feel safe to go, will head there and hope and pray that they will survive. Those that don't will stay where they are until their forced to move by lack of food, water, and violence. They will then spread out and ravage everything they can to stay alive until someone comes to "save" them. They might stop then, but many will die.

Sorry Texican, i think your right!


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Depending on what the SHTF is... I totally think you are right.

In the early days, unless the immediate area is unlivable, I think many will set home with their hand out expecting to be taken care of. When help doesn't show up they may try searching locally before they decide to abandon familiar home territory. Within a few days, the mass exodus will be underway. Depending on what the SHTF is, they will either be bumper to bumper on the hiways, or walking in mass.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

I may have to go look for that other thread......

Am I a "Survivalist"??? 

And here I am thinking, that I was just a 'Gun Happy Marine' with a hobby of Amateur 'Ham' Radios since I was a teenager, that is living out in the woods here in Earthquake country.

Well if the person lived where the Earth can decide at any time to become violent with vertical and lateral motions, that would make a firm believer out of them. 

The folks that believe 'it can't happen here' (also a great Frank Zappa song), will be out searching thru the collapsed rubble of buildings when (not if!) the "Big One Hits" along the Cascadia Subduction Zone. I have seen how folks react following a emergency of three seperate - 7.1, 6.5, and 6.3 series of Earthquakes (Punta Gorda) all within about 17 hours. Panic sets in, and it is every person for themselves - 'the devil takes the hindmost' attitude.

Gosh the stores are closed, no power to run the checkouts, pump any fuel, or no city water/ sewer services. 

What choice do we have, but to go and search out the sounds of running generators? 

That could be why I have at least 48 hours or more at full time use (240 amp hours), of 12 VDC battery power available. Then maybe a generator would be fired up, or I could move a pickup with dual batteries near the house and get a couple sets of jumper cables to recharge the house batteries besides using my 50 watts of solar panels, by hooking to the trucks 100 Amp alternator batteries system first. It is a lot more quiet than a generator running.

Plus I am far off of the beaten path, and can not be seen except from the air directly above the clearing (old logging landing) here. I figure that the Zombies will over run the citified residents way down at the bottom of the hill 1st, and the folks along the main road would whittle down their numbers before they get this many miles up the county road - uphill all of the way from sea level to 1,800 feet in elevation here at my place and up to almost 3,000 feet at places in the area. Scroungers are lazy folks, at their very best!!!!!

Plus the Zombies may fear a bayonet tipped rifle held by a large growling Marine Corps Vet, than some Pee-Wee Herman type character asking them meekly to "Don't Do That"!!!.

After the 1964 Tsunami along the North Coast resulting from the 'Good Friday Alaskan Earthquake', and then the winter of December 1964 severe floods, many areas of my county were isolated for several months before bridges and roads could be repaired in a crude form. Total rebuilding of the transportation infrastructure took many years/ almost a decade in some parts to bring the system back to standards, in a healthy National economy way back then under LBJ.

I forgot to add that as a kid, I watched the 1967 riots in Detroit. When the Zombies/ Looters were out in full force, and were burning what they couldn't carry away with them...


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

I know the horde exists because I've seen it. Same hurricane exodus you're talking about.

I've been some pretty remote places in my life. I've also seen evidence of other people in those remote places, and that makes me realize that, considering there are 300 plus million people in our country and a border so porous we can't count how many come and go---the horde will travel anywhere it can to obtain food, drugs, alcohol, and power. 

I think many will die; the elderly, the mentally ill, the disabled. I think most people will either be destroyed by the horde, or become one of the horde. Others may escape, but how, I admit I don't know. 

I just don't believe there is any place the horde will not eventually spread in to, except perhaps places so inhospitable that life is hard to sustain for long--like the north slope of Alaska, or extreme altitudes such as those above 10,000 ft.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

Isn't the Rapture supposed to protect us from the really bad stuff?


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Only if you're a rapturist and only if the rapture is real. Whether or not the rapture is real, rapturists would still be amongst the first to die anyway so they won't have to endure the really bad stuff for very long.


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## seagullplayer (Nov 6, 2008)

Prep all you like for this world, but if you have not made proper preparations for the next it is all in vain.

Many have tried to out run death, all have failed.

You find what you look for; personally I think it is a pretty pathetic life worried the horde is just around the corner ready to cut my throat and clean out my freezer. Searching every piece of news for evidence that the end is at the door and it is time to load the gunsâ¦

I try to be prepared for a week or two without power in case of a storm or the like.
I have a couple of extra beds around for friends and family.
I even have a loaded gun at ready for when varmints raid the hen house at night.

But I donât plan on being around when this world does indeed end.


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

Mama Crow said:


> Isn't the Rapture supposed to protect us from the really bad stuff?


It will protect us from the REALLY bad stuff, but that doesn't mean everything will be wine and roses before it happens.


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## seagullplayer (Nov 6, 2008)

deaconjim said:


> It will protect us from the REALLY bad stuff, but that doesn't mean everything will be wine and roses before it happens.


True, but consider Matthew 6:25-34


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

I think you might like my "Faithful Prepper" blog, seagull ... may be wrong, but I think you might.


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

There are entirely too many examples of recent and past "migrations" of populations pushed by natural disasters,wars and local loss of carrying capacity.

In my opinion it is unrealistic to believe it 'Can't happen "here" '. If my waterhole dries up then I am going to trek across the desert to find another one...opps occupied; move on,share or take it over?

To keep revisiting this topic is:bdh: ; you will never convince those who just can't see their nice ordered world dissolving into mass confusion :umno:
"It" can happen "here", question is will it??


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2010)

FyredUp said:


> I simply don't realistically see a full blown collapse of society occurring. However that doesn't mean I don't prep like it might.


Ditto.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2010)

300 million people will turn to the same government that got them there in the first place. The rest of us will keep on like normal. The military will not want to overthrow the government and deal with the 300 million people crying for a handout. If you ain't ready, you better be mighty good looking or something.


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## Timberline (Feb 7, 2006)

I think it would be bloody and violent. Looters will kill and take what they please. I think it will be kill or be killed. I have always just sort of rolled my eyes at "What should I stock up on to barter with" threads because I think by the time things got settled down enough for peaceful bartering, most of what people had will be used up or, more likely, stolen.

I also think those who ban together for defense will stand the best chance, unless you are extremely remote. Livestock, gardens and supplies would have to be under guard 24/7.

A main part of my prepping has always been to have several different firearms and know how to use them all well. I think that's especially important for women these days. Dh can't always be here, and I need to be able to defend myself. In a shtf situation, everyone should know how to shoot, and hit what you shoot at. It's pretty much guaranteed that looters and hordes will be armed. The beginning of a panic situation is not the time to decide to pick up your first gun and learn how to use it.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Our government has always taken from the &#8220;well to do&#8221; and given to the &#8220;not so well to do.&#8221; In a TEOTWAWKI world, if the government survives, I believe this philiosphy will continue &#8220;take from the rich and give to the poor.&#8221; But, in a TEOTWAWKI world, the dollar will be worthless, so who will be the &#8220;well to do?&#8221; Who will be the ones that government can take from? The new &#8220;rich&#8221; will likely be the survivalists who prepped and who are providing for their own. It would not surprise me at all that much of what we have will be confiscated and rationed out to others....to the &#8220;have nots.&#8221; The new tax collectors will not be collecting dollars, they&#8217;ll be collecting hard goods, materials, food and fresh water. Our government may very well end up being the "looters." The zombies don't scare me half as much legal confiscation of property. I can fight the zombies, jack booted thugs are a whole different element.


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## NJ Rich (Dec 14, 2005)

The real possibility of regional SHTF has already happened both here and in other parts of the world. What makes some people think it will be all of the world or USA or nothing.

Katrina was enough SHTF for those in New Orleans. A major disruption of services and supplies will send some people over the edge quicker than others. I don't think anyone will sit by and let their families starve and that will be infectious. When one person sees another "take or rob food" they will get the same mind set and follow suit.

No, you will never convince some people SHTF or TEOTWAWKI is possible. Texican knows history always repeats itself. We all hope it won't happen but most of the people here on HT prepare for "whatever" may happen. 

Most survivalist know sooner or later the easy to get food and game is gone. It is surprising how few animals, both large and small, inhabit forests.
In many areas small game is scarce. The more competition for the limited supplies and game the less there is to go around. Sooner or later groups form and many will just take what they want and maybe you along with it. 

"Better to have and not need than to need and not have" is how many of us think. 

Getting some people too understand that is almost impossible. :shrug::doh:

I read Cabin's response after I posted this. I agree people in authority will take from those under their control. That doesn't mean the goods will all be shared with the have nots.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

I believe that if it HTF quickly, there will be blood running in the streets of the more metropolitan areas when the wolves prey upon the sheep and the shepherds are inadequate and unable to stop them. I believe that the "horde" will be much smaller after that. Then, I feel that the horde will do a pretty good job of turning on its own weaker members. The fact is that they didn't come out to my area before SHTF because of the perception that life is hard here and there is not much worth stealing, also there's the fact that they know we are armed and never did worry so much about calling 911. So after the SHTF, I feel that we will have some portion of the horde to deal with, but only a much smaller segment.

Of those remaining, as someone else mentioned, I think they are lazy and will try to pick off the easy plums first--those closer to the cities and on main thoroughfares. Many will die trying that. Those that finally make it to my area will be pretty bad customers, but I'm still not so sure they are up to dealing with an armed populace that is not constrained by laws against protecting their own property. Sure, they will get some of us, but I don't think they can take all of us, especially if we band together.

Regarding the government, if it is so bad that the hordes are on the move and not able to be restrained by the National Guard, then I'm not so sure that there will be enough organization to seek out every single prepper and take enough food to feed only a small number of people (in their eyes, my 1yr supply for 3 people is only 36 months worth of food.) Would they be willing to track me down, send serious force, risk losing resources, in order to feed 36 people for a month? Doesn't seem like a very good return on the time/resources invested. Particularly when there would be 36 million screaming for relief. Perhaps we overestimate the value the government would place on our meager supplies.

For me, those supplies are invaluable since they would keep us alive and give us time to fully transition into a more self sufficient lifestyle. But the fact is that they are a disposable tool, not intended for long term use. I have been working to educate myself and my family about more primitive survival - foraging and living off the land. I will not have our survival depend on whether someone swipes my supply of canned tuna.

If the end comes in the form of a long, slow slide, we will continue to live much as we are now. Buying what we can afford and growing/making at home or doing without the rest. I imagine crime will increase and expect that whether or not laws change to allow us to protect our own property better, we will do so. In many ways, this would be a lot easier, in that it would give everyone time to perfect their self sufficiency skills.

And what will happen to the horde in a slow slide? I don't really know. I expect the government will begin to provide some kind of sustenance for them (soylent green?) to keep them sedated and under control. IMO, the large multinational corporations will not allow this to happen on a large scale. They need wage-slave consumers to buy their products. If TSHTF, then their income will stop and I don't think they will let that happen. Better to sacrifice a few billion dollars each to keep things limping along than to let it all collapse.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

When people get hungry they will just naturally go hunting for food. If there is a store or fast food place they will stop there and buy what they need.
If something happens to all the stores and fast food places people are still going to get hungry. They will just have to change places that they used to get their food. If there is food anywhere near them they will want it. If it is an SHTF sityation they will take what they want unless there is some reason they can't.

People can last quite a while without food. They can cover quite a bit of ground in that time. Not many places will be safe from hungry people.
It is hard for people to live without leaving traces of where they are.
Naturally hungry people will have to learn new skills. Some will learn to find those who have something they need or want.

If a person really thinks they will live to see a serious SHTF, not a personal one, they should prepare. Mostly they should prepare mentally. You can have food stacked to the ceiling but if you are not prepared to protect it if will soon be gone.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

If _civilization_ collapsed, then we're talking about anarchy. I'd expect roving gangs looting, etc. Their problem will be a nervous, armed population.

The difference between that scenario and the 'golden hoards' that were evacuating is that the evacuees were, essentially, being ordered to move. In a SHTF or EOTWAWKI situation, I wouldn't expect such masses of people moving together.

I agree with Cabin Fever's response......I fear the blue helmets far more than the roving gangs.


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## cvk (Oct 30, 2006)

First off--I think it is unrealistic to think that anybody can store enough ammo to shoot everybody that they think would be after their food.

I have always thought there would be these hordes of people but lately I have been looking at it a bit differently. If they sit there in their homes etc. waiting for things to get better or the gov. to save them there will be nothing left for them to use to go anywhere. A hurricane doesn't show us anything--there is gas and supplies everywhere else and it is a local event. There is nowhere to run if everything hits the fan. Sure there will be some thugs but people in large cities rely on mass transit--a large percentage don't even have cars. A very small percentage own firearms. If they have cars they have to have access to fuel that will probably be non existent--how far are they going to be walking esp. without food and water. Those that have cars, fuel, firearms etc. probably are also one of us and prepped! So we are the dangerous ones !


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## cvk (Oct 30, 2006)

Yup, that is what I was trying to say. The majority are going to do NOTHING. If they do get motivated later there will be nothing they can do. All those people in the Dome after Katrina--did they gang up and leave? Nope they sat there without food or water and waited---


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

here's a great article with lots of food for thought for surviving as a community/small town. (Jericho fans will enjoy this)
http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/showthread.php?t=115078&highlight=mayor

Gerald Celente's thoughts on the balkanization of the US, where do you end up? for me...Oh Canada! 
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/4408-the-rise-and-fall-of-the-ussa

i dont think we appreciate how thin the line is between civil and not
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38814397/ns/world_news-africa/?gt1=43001(

personally i think its wise to be open eyed about how bad it can get, and hopefully be pleasantly surprised one is still standing in a year. luckily i live in oregon where it rains 24/7 and it drives californians out of their minds so they sit and drool in the corner--that will take care of half the city populations right there...


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Well those that trust in the Lord to save them quoting scripture, I go by the saying "Praise the lord, and pass the ammunition."

cvk - I don't think that you have ever encountered a "Gun Happy Marine" that has been using firearms since I was around 10 years old/ about 40 years now. I tend to keep more than a box or two of ammunition. Think along the lines of needing a forklift and some pallets, to move my stored for long term storage supplies.

It does not have to be a major widespread event. Look at a Tsunami, Earthquake, Hurricane, Tornado, Fire, Floods, or other natural disaster. To those in the damaged areas, it could seem to be the end of the world! No services, law enforcement is absent or otherwise occupies, no fuel, food, or water are availale for any amout of money. What will you do????

If you are gonna give up and think it is the "Rapture", then you may be in for a major disappointment when you are not transported skyward. Being raised Catholic, I have made my peace with my maker, but I will not roll over and sit there waiting for "The Authorities" to come and save me with 'manna from heaven', or any other aid which they may decide to dispense.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

radio since you are californian i hope i didnt offend you with my jab at californians. altho you are north coast californian--which i rather call jeffersonian, and you can stand a lil rain


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

*My prediction if its TEOTWAWKI.*
*City dwellers*: will for the most part, remain where they are expecting the government to take care of them, by the time they decide help is not coming, there will be the violent city dwellers scavenging on the non-violent, as resources lessen this will turn into both gang warfare and gangs driving their stolen vehicles out to the suburbs to loot and kill there.
*Surbanites*: Surbanites know where farm country is and know it has something to do with food production, they've driven by fields with something growing in them and seen cows in pasture. Those that think they are smart, will head out to get food for their families (ie what we call zombies), for the most part thinking they deserve it, they may or may not try to offer the owner (what they think is)fair market value, but they will end up trying to take what they believe they have a right to just because their family is hungry. This will result in deaths. In the mean time the survivors from the city will be looting the suburbs and taking what they want -- including the wives and daughters of the guys out looking for food.
Eventually these gangs will grow and move through the countryside with guns and ammo taking what they want and spoiling what they don't (ie MZB's). Countryfolk will have to band together to stop these large gangs. 
MZB's can't exist forever, either they die off because they have no idea how to produce food other than looting. Or they form groups, take over land and use slave labor to produce for them, eventually this turns into a government and eventually slavery will be repealed -- but possibly not for decades or even centuries.


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## cvk (Oct 30, 2006)

We have always prepped to hold off the hordes. Probably will stay that way forever but I do have my doubts after watching other countries that people have what it takes to do anything unless they are already prep minded etc. When our own kind runs out of preps then we will really be in trouble because we are all armed and ready to find a way to survive.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

People gotta eat.

With our food supply system using such long distance transportation, that would be the key. If the transport of food stops, people will start leaving large cities or starve, as within 30 days no food would be left.

The closer one is to a city, and the larger the city is, the more people you would have to deal with. And people will do anything, even eat other people, before they starve.

Things would eventually sort themselves out, but it would be a mess for a while.

I certainly do not see this happening in my lifetime though.


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

I observed the same hurricane response as texican. There was some minor violence associated with the evactuation and the power outage but not much. Weapons were drawn over fuel and some things like generators were stolen. People did die because of ignorance. My personal observation was that we were right on the edge of violence on a much larger scale. People were screaming for water, food and ice as soon as the wind stopped. If supplies hadn't been delivered fairly quickly there would have been real trouble in at least some areas. And if there hadn't been a fairly large regional escape valve through evactuation going out and supplies coming in then things would have gotten much much worse very quickly. It wouldn't take much to complicate things so the escape valve is not available. In the case of Houston, a couple of bridges being taken out on the outskirts would do it.

Only a relatively small percentage of the population is going to sit there and starve, most are going to go looking for something and they will take it any way they can. And the reality is that it could happen tomorrow.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

Wanderer0101 said:


> Only a relatively small percentage of the population is going to sit there and starve, most are going to go looking for something and they will take it any way they can.


I agree with most of this, but I feel that when most of those folks go out looking for food, they will be victimized by the criminal element. They don't have the first clue about situational awareness. They don't own guns and even if they could get one, they don't know how to shoot. They have no idea regarding tactics and strategy. Basically, they would be helpless, meat on the hoof for the hard core thugs.


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

The I59 bridges at the San Jacinto river, Hwy 90 and the I10 bridges crossing the same river farther south, but where north Hwy. 290, and 90 and I10 west? The Brazos? That's significantly far outside Houston. Where on I45? Maybe some of the larger creeks? This leaves a radius wherein several million people live, and still encompasses some farm land. 

People did get violent during the exodus, but I'd say not as violent as it could have become, because I believe that people knew, despite their participation in the exodus, that it was a temporary thing. Maybe a few days, a week or two at most, and life would return to normal. And it did. I observed human behavior like I hadn't really been exposed to before while watching it. I got in my pickup and drove through our little town and down to the (closed) Sonic and sat in the (empty) parking lot about a block off the freeway, and simply observed for a couple of hours. Shared some peanuts with the grackles (who come as part of the furnishings of any Sonic I've ever been to) while watching the freeways--it was the first true gridlock I'd ever seen. Cars simply not moving at all. People out of their cars, sitting on the wall of the overpass, sitting in the grass along the freeway, walking around aimlessly. The din was amazing--car stereos thumping rap music, car horns blaring, people yelling, children crying, pets barking and howling, things banging and thumping. Police sirens wailed often, tires squealing. Had I been blind, I would have thought I was downtown just from the noise. As I flipped peanuts to the birds, I watched the police tackle a man at the Chevron cattycornered from where I was sitting. I later got the story he had cut in line at the gas pumps, someone called him on it, and he pulled a knife on them. 

As wild and wooly as this was, at least to MY rather inexperienced eyes, I could still see a mob mentality on the whole; the horde had formed, it was alive, and I think it would have taken very, very little to set a riot in motion. 

As an aside note, the streets of our little town were pretty much empty when I was out at that time.Most folks were home preparing, and a few like me had completed preps and were out to see in person what we had observed on the news. The hordes had not ventured further away from the freeway than perhaps half a mile, maybe a mile at the most, to try to find stores stocked with food. The Texaco a mile away from the freeway was pretty picked over, but they still had sodas, ice, snacks, etc., and gasoline but it was the super unleaded. 

But had the situation turned into a mob riot, I don't think people on the freeways would have hesitated to drive down the grass incline and take to the smaller roads searching for what they needed. There certainly weren't enough police around, and they would have been quickly overwhelmed by the sheer mass of the horde.


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

JuliaAnn said:


> The I59 bridges at the San Jacinto river, Hwy 90 and the I10 bridges crossing the same river farther south, but where north Hwy. 290, and 90 and I10 west? The Brazos? That's significantly far outside Houston. Where on I45? Maybe some of the larger creeks? This leaves a radius wherein several million people live, and still encompasses some farm land.


If you lost the 59 bridges at the San Jacinto and the bridge on 45 south of Conroe then things would get very nasty. All the traffic would have to divert and you'd get some real grid lock, plus the sheer volume trying to use the other roads would turn it into a nightmare. Could be that someone decides he doesn't want the Golden Horde in his lap and he deliberately takes out or blocks those bridges.


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

FyredUp said:


> I simply don't realistically see a full blown collapse of society occurring. However that doesn't mean I don't prep like it might.


This is where I'm at, too. 

I think because of where we live the "angry horde" is a hard thing to picture. Here we don't have things that cause "mass exodus". More likely mass "locked up at home" - ice storm, snow, etc

I prep more for long term "inconvenience". If DH loses his job or is injured and no $ is coming in....we have a pantry, non electric equipment we could use to lower costs (watch how fast I could shut down DH's TV!). Sorry, guys, your on the chopping block, too.....but low on the list. The internet could be the lifeline that would find DH or me another job, but the library is only 2 blocks away....with free wireless internet, so it's not TOO far down the list. Nasty storms that knock out power for a few months....we're covered as long as the house is livable...if not we pack up and go to another location, be it a hotel, family, or the cabin in the hills. If the "inconvenience" is longer, we will adjust. We have the skills, books and will to do so.

The one thing that would freak us out in one of these events would be the government actually being useful. I don't expect them to be here with any help. I was surprised when our town had a flood and major sewer backup 7 yrs ago. FEMA showed up passed out clean-up kits and actually cut us a check for the destroyed things (including freezer full of food). I had my 1 positive brush with the government...I NEVER expect to see one again...as I'm sure that one was an accident, they didn't mean it.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Well I can tell you a lot of the situation N of Houston in that SNAFU of an evacuation was due to the government incompetency. Kneejerk reaction planning after Katrina.

For example, my brother was evacuating to families house. He lives in a small town 30 miles outside Houston. He was taking the usual route and simply crossing the highway 40 miles outside Houston...

Didn't matter, cops were at every county road and farm road crossing, and they would not let him cross, and forced him into Houston and out the north side.. Basically they pushed most of the entire region through Houston and out the north side, nobody could use smaller roads, they were all funneled into the freeways north.. What did they expect to happen?

As for me last Hurricane I went through in place close to the coast, in a neighborhood just outside town, the whole neighborhood banded together to keep everyone in food and water and getting by, though everyone pretty much had their bases covered for a couple weeks anyway.. Power was out for 2 weeks.

Always nice to get a hot shower and those with gen sets sharing.. most had water wells. As well, this is Texas, everyone is armed pretty much. Nobody was going to go through the neighborhood looting anything.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Txrider said:


> Well I can tell you a lot of the situation N of Houston in that SNAFU of an evacuation was due to the government incompetency. Kneejerk reaction planning after Katrina.


Exactly right. And that incompetency caused people to needlessly die, right there on the freeway.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Txsteader said:


> Exactly right. And that incompetency caused people to needlessly die, right there on the freeway.


Yup it wasn't like this was the first hurricane through there... And we never had those issues before.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

wyld thang said:


> here's a great article with lots of food for thought for surviving as a community/small town. (Jericho fans will enjoy this)
> http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/showthread.php?t=115078&highlight=mayor
> .


 This is great!!


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## Farmerwilly2 (Oct 14, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Say something I don't agree with and I'll be happy to try and talk you out of it


Can you help with the dreery weerys also?


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

People have been saying in bad times for 2000 years that they don't have to worry the Lord will take them home before it gets too bad. Guess what he did. Not quite in the way they thought but because they didn't prepare either mentally or materially. Nothing says the rapture will happen anytime soon. The bible says no man can predict the coming. If you don't prepare for bad times you are violating the "God helps those who help themselves" mindset taught in the bible. You'll feel worse than a fool if you have to watch your family starve or worse because you didn't prepare. If you believe in the bible then you have to also believe you can't predict when the Rapture will happen.


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

We have millions of combat vets in this country who won't sit idly and allow their families to starve. We have gangs that send their members into the military to get training. We have a sense of entitlement among the poor here that does not exist in the third world places mentioned. Believe me the hordes will come. They won't be in really large groups because they are harder to feed but they will seem to be in endless numbers. They will be organized after the first few days and they will be combat effective because those that aren't will have died. They will fight each other even more than us because they are competition for each other. They will become even more dangerous as the days go by because the less dangerous will be dead. Live and learn or don't live long. They will kill those they see that can't defend themselves sufficiently because they will be a drain on the food supply. By the time they make it into prime prepper territory they will be truly dangerous. Unless you live close to a major city you won't have to worry about a thousand storming your home at one time. You'll have to worry about that group of twenty led by a former special forces soldier and containing half military vets and gang bangers and all who have recent combat experience. How will you fair against them? And the group trailing them, and the one after that. When you beat down one will you be watching for the group that is planning to ambush the winner while they are still celebrating still being alive?


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

Donno.... mine your place with claymores all the way around?


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

texican said:


> Reckon my question is:
> What do you think will happen if our civilization collapses? Name your poison, it doesn't matter what caused it... once the oil stops flowing, the pumps are shut down, the electric grid is down, all the stores are closed (for lack of goods)... and it's pretty obvious things won't be returning to normal for many months or year or ever? Kumbaya or Gnashing of Teeth?


this isn't intentionally set up as a straw man argument. and i don't know whether you personally believe the following. however, the general tone and seeming assumptions of various posters on various threads sounds like the following to me:

mythology: the gov't will suddenly collapse, leaving a complete power vacuum, and then mad max / complete anarchy will reign, until warlords/criminal gangs rise up. when this happens, i won't have to make mortgage payments, will have no use for gold or moeny, i'll just need enough ammo to keep the warlords from taking my land. 

my view:
the "collapse" of rome took several hundred years. while we could collapse faster, i don't think the gov't will collapse instantly, and i don't think they're going to give up control easily either. 

the usa and europe have gone thru quite a few major shifts in the last 150 years, that i think most would consider SHTF. US civil war, with south losing and occupation and reconstruction by the north. WWI and WWII in europe, with redrawn boundaries for several countries. german occupation of austria, poland, france. hyperinflation in germany (1922-23), rise of hitler, WWII, collapse and occupation by US (west germany) and soviet union (east germany). fall of france and occupation by germany during WWII. 

what's the longest period that there was effectively no gov't/military control of any particular piece of land? what's the longest period that non-gov't armed bandits managed to take and keep land for? what's the total number of people that lost their land this way? in contrast, what's the total number of people that lost their land because the could not pay the mortgage or the land taxes? how many lost other resources because the gov't/occupying force commandeered their resources, with or without payment? (house, tractor, farm animals, crops) i have a strong suspicion that far more people lost land due to lack of money, than due to non-gov't armed gangs. i don't know exactly what happened to all the mortgages of the french during and after WWII, but i suspect not many got a free ride on their payments forever.

during the great depression, many landowners lost their land to the bank. by law, your deposit at a bank is a loan to the bank. when many banks went bankrupt during the depression, many lost their deposits. but they still owed the mortgage, even if the mortgage was to the same bank. in bankruptcy, the mortgage now becomes an asset of the creditors of the bank, and is still payable in full, or it will foreclosed on. 

during the civil war, the north blockaded cotton exports from the south. if you had a cotton plantation with mortgage, i'd guess you'd still owe on the mortgage if it was a southern bank. if a northern bank held the mortgage, you probably didn't have to pay during the war, but i'd guess when the war ended you probably had a few catch-up payments to make, if you even managed to keep the land at all. perhaps there were a few northern folk who had loans from southern banks that managed to never pay back the loan, i don't know. i haven't studied the financial arrangements of this era, but if a bunch of people got out of a lot of debt free, i'd likely have heard about it somewhere in the type of reading that i do.

if the gov't in power wants something you have (your tractor, your fuel, your house for a military encampment), they will commandeer it, giving you wantever fiat money they're printing at the time. (likely depreciating quickly.)

when there's a complete change of gov't (ie, a revolution), then ownership changes, at least during the time of the new gov'ts tenure. but i'd guess that land goes to those politically connected, not to unorganized criminal gangs, or marauding hordes. if the new gov't falls, the prior claims come back in to play. i think there are a bunch of cubans in florida waiting for castro to fall, so they can reclaim ownership of land they had in cuba before the revolution. will they get it back without the support of an organized gov't of some sort? if they had some sort of outstanding mortgage on that land, what happens? i really don't have any idea, but i suspect that somewhere there will be a banker with his hand out.

i once read that in 1998, during the currency crisis in the soviet union due to the oil price crash, that while russia was negotiating for restructuring the russian loans, british investment banks pulled out some loans they owned from czarist russia days, and demanded partial repayment on that debt. (ie, on debt originally taken out by the russian czar, prior to the russian revolution in 1917.) 

the overall point is, i just don't see countries that have functioning centralized control suddenly having zero gov't control by anybody being the most likely probability. and bankers tend to be extremely well connected politically, and escaping payment on loans doesn't happen that often that i'm aware of.

can you find countries in the world that have no effective central gov't? yes, somalia, afghanistan, columbia drug lords, etc. are they really directly comparable to usa? i'd suggest that these countries have little/no history of a strong centralized gov't. i'd also suggest that in many cases, the US gov't or our allies had a vested interest in keeping them somewhat chaotic. eg, we supported the afghan rebellion against the soviet occupation. i'll conceed that 10+ years of foreign occupation and civil war are not conducive to the rule of law. and as i understand it, britain after WWI redrew the boundaries in the middle east such that each country would be unstable with rival tribal groups, as it would be easier for britian to control and manipulate them. 

perhaps a nuclear strike could instantly wipe out our centralized gov't, but then more than likely some other gov't would come occupy the usa. it would seem that only if every strong gov't worldwide (ie, that had the power to move troops) were all wiped out at the same time, would there be a complete lack of any gov't, and a rise warlords/anarchy. 

so, i weight the likelyhood of ongoing (many months/years) anarchy/mad-max in the USA being very low. i weight the likelyhood of any crisis resulting in heavy gov't control, marital law, check-points, curfews, commandeered resources, rationing, patriotic propaganda to conserve resources, turn in "hoarders", much higher. i think military occupation by a foreign army is more likely than mad-max / criminal gangs. (unless a foreign power strong enough to instantly wipe out the gov't, and strong enough to prevent any other gov't from coming in, decides that their best interest is chaos in the usa. )

i weight the likelyhood of getting out of paying debts very low. i weight the likelyhood of job losses, high inflation for necessities, collapse of investment values, freezing of retirement assets, very high. 

i'll have some other comments on points that to me seem to be myths later on...

--sgl


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

most here are long past this mythology, but it's prevalent among the general population when they first arrive here, so i'll include it, even tho it's not entirely s&ep. aside from being easy to find because it was just started in the last couple days, this one is interesting because he's quite ambitious, and doesn't realize how much so. but the same general attitude is common among many when they first come to the forum (myself included some time ago):

mythology: i can be 100% self-sufficient if i grow all my own food.
see this thread:


> exact life plan
> 
> I want to raise my own food (animals, crops, cotton, veggies, etc.), grow my own trees (fruit trees, various exotic wood trees [pink ivory, mahogany, ebony, etc.]), build my own home, make my own clothes/soap etc. and basically live off the land with my family.


a more realistic view, from agmantoo's response

now of course, like everyone else, he'll slowly whittle down his dreams to a manageable size. but many start off thinking if they have food, they're most of the way home of being "self sufficient". but what's the capital cost of the land, tools, equipment? learning curve? time constraints for doing the work? medical care? cost of equipment repairs? cost of food items you can't grow your self, whether particular spices (coffee, chocolate, tea)?

----------------------------------------
and one i posted on another thread already: 

mythology: having lots of guns protects from gov't encroachment

links to 2 comments expressing the above from another thread, by stanb999, and by Ernie

my view, posted on the same thread: sgl42

sometime later i'll get to "oil suddenly disappearing permanently, never to be restarted"

--sgl


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## seagullplayer (Nov 6, 2008)

willbuck1 said:


> People have been saying in bad times for 2000 years that they don't have to worry the Lord will take them home before it gets too bad. Guess what he did. Not quite in the way they thought but because they didn't prepare either mentally or materially. Nothing says the rapture will happen anytime soon. The bible says no man can predict the coming. If you don't prepare for bad times you are violating the *"God helps those who help themselves"* mindset taught in the bible. You'll feel worse than a fool if you have to watch your family starve or worse because you didn't prepare. If you believe in the bible then you have to also believe you can't predict when the Rapture will happen.


Please help me find that verse. 

Those who believe in the Bible trust in Christ not the rapture. 

I would rather die doing what Christ instructed than live any other way. Makes me no never mind how He takes me home.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

I definitely believe in the Bible, and for that reason, I cannot believe in the Rapture because the concept/word is nowhere in there. 

I asked the question knowing I didn't, personally, believe in it ... and I should have clarified that from the onset.

However, I realize many people DO believe in it, and so in that sense, it was a legitimate question ... especially for a fear-based thread such as this.

But, anyway ... yes, I definitely believe in the Bible, and for that reason, I CAN believe that the Lord is my Helper and I will not fear what man shall do to me (Heb 13:6) ... and I CAN believe that God promises to protect me right where I am (Psalms 91) ... and I CAN believe He will be with me always even unto the end of the world as we know it (Matt 28:20.) 

I could quote many other concepts/words, along the same vein, that ARE everywhere in there ... but I do not want to be a bore, or insult people's intelligences.

This is a very interesting thread, thank you, Texican.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

mnn2501 said:


> This is great!!


im glad you read it! 

it IS one of the most thought provoking things ive read in a long time. i live 4 crow miles back in the hills(but its more very windy road miles), bordering blm and timber land from a rural-surrounded college town of 30,000(lots of retirees also). we have 4 grocery stores, two feed/ag stores, a creamery, steel mill, lumber mill(on the edge of town, more out), a couple card lock local stations for ag fuel, a small airport, john deere dealership and airplane museum(ha, thinking mad mechanical parts pantry). surrounded by farming, and its good farming land too. anyways it was interesting to have my town in the back of my mind while reading this.

we are an hour driving from Portland, though. while there is the element of meth head zombie types, here in oregon the much maligned hippy vibe is a help, i would think, in regards that there are a lot of city types interested in csa's, frugal/recycling etc, getting along, and for the past 30 plus years the gov has had a vision to preserve farmland, or to value conservation(however that gets misguided at times in the practice...)

have you ever read Ecotopia? its a fave book of mine, i kinda think it wont be that far off...i'll have to go find it and read it again and see how it lines up today(i read it 20 years ago) ETA--i dont think the uber feminist angle part will work, and the social stuff is a little out of date, but i can see the separation and "green living" thing happening.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

ha we also have a county museum full of old horse drawn ag machinery...


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

JuliaAnn said:


> The din was amazing--car stereos thumping rap music, .


 Which should be a capital offence at any time


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

I reread my post and decided that I simply don't want to engage in another debate. My questions were serious and sincere but it simply isn't worth it.

Have a nice day!


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

The floods were coming and the Radio and TV advised evacuation
The old man said "No, God will provide"
The floods came and the rescuers came by boat to take him out
The old man said "No, God will provide"
The floods were up to the roof and a helicopter hovered throwing down a sling to evactuate him
The old man said "No, God will provide"

The old man drowns, gets to Heaven and asked God why He didn't save him.
God answered " I sent you the evacuation notice, the boat and the helicopter -- what else did you need?"


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## Just Cliff (Nov 27, 2008)

Hmmm.. So we have an incompitent government that some how manages to get its um stuff together in the midst of a crisis? Are these the same folks that couldn't pour liquid waste out of a boot if the directions were on the bottom? And you fear them taking your preps?

Remember what generations you are dealing with. In my mid 40's I am the oldest of the *X* generation. The next being *Y* and appropriately named (ask Why? all the time)
Most of our military and security forces are made of Y'ers with X'ers in charge. They will be for themselves. It is their mind set. People with Our mentality have a work ethic but not as good as the Baby Boomers. I can tell you from supervising Y'ers the don't really give a s...darn about anything but themselves.

The military is incapable of feeding it's troops half the time now. How will they get better in a crisis? 
I know a great many active duty soldiers including my kid. Morale is terrible right now in all branches. 
If/when SHTF I think you will see them desert en mass and use their equipment to get by. THAT you should be worried about. I know here in NC we have the best trained forces in the world and a good many of them. This will be an ugly place to be in hard times.

I see people speaking of the Zombie hords swarming their locations. Im not to worried about that. Large groups or packs tend to stay that way. They make a great deal of noise and move slowly. They can be evaded easily enough. Preps well hidden will be missed by a hungry and confused hord
I worry about the One or two I can't see. The disiplined,inteligent and well enough fed. You won't hear them or see them till its too late or you may never and just take a dirt nap. I plan of staying out of site for a good little while after it happens.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Much of what is touted as "survivalist mythology" is nothing more than media stereotypes of Straw Man claims. They can't(or won't) address what survivalists really say, so they build up their fake Straw Men to attack. It's always much easier to attack the fake arguments, since they were custom built for that purpose, and many people will be fooled by the lies.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

k, so i started reading ecotopia--like i said i read it 20 years ago, 30 maybe? anyways, its freaky how much stuff thats in the book has come "true". i'll make a list and make another thread when im done. its really quite amazing


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

wyld thang said:


> k, so i started reading ecotopia--like i said i read it 20 years ago, 30 maybe? anyways, its freaky how much stuff thats in the book has come "true". i'll make a list and make another thread when im done. its really quite amazing


Geez...now I have to read it.  Another book on my amazon order.


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

Ok so the God helps those who helps themselves isn't straight from the bible. There is a verse about a wise man buys stores of food and oil. Jesus did say that those who don't own a sword should buy one. God helps the weak but in no place that I know of does the bible advocate not taking care of yourself if able nor does it say to allow yourself to be a victim. I am not a Christian but have read the bible and while not an expert on it I don't think that the message was give up and wait for the Lord to provide. It says he will provide but in my opinion that means you need to follow the warnings he gives you.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

^^ I agree wholeheartedly. ^^

Yes, we should prepare and watch ... in fact, He commanded us (throughout the whole Bible) to prepare and watch.

BUT we should NOT fear, or stress out.

For me, THAT is the BIG difference in all of this.

I think His lesson all along was for us to examine our motives for doing so (for prepping.)


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

consider the lilies of the field they neither toil nor spin but they are beautifully clothed(something like that)

and the sparrow verse, God cares for the sparrow, how much more for us

now i would add that the lilies and the sparrows are in their element as they were created to be, doing what they were meant to do, aligned with the dance God set in motion. on the other hand we also know sparrows are eaten by cats and hawks, and lilies die...but the lilies and sparrows are not afraid of death. so i say be a good dancer with all your heart, and so no these verses arent an excuse to sit and wait for manna to fall

ps, dance your butt off


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

sgl42 said:


> most here are long past this mythology, but it's prevalent among the general population when they first arrive here, so i'll include it, even tho it's not entirely s&ep. aside from being easy to find because it was just started in the last couple days, this one is interesting because he's quite ambitious, and doesn't realize how much so. but the same general attitude is common among many when they first come to the forum (myself included some time ago):
> 
> mythology: i can be 100% self-sufficient if i grow all my own food.
> see this thread:
> ...


so, do you find it better to have no guns and no ammunition?

Oil doesn't have to disappear permanently... about a week would throw the country into chaos. 

We have a very efficient fuel delivery system in this country, with a very comfortable strategic reserve, "just in case" something bad happens. However, this is absolutely NO security built into the system... there's zero need for security from Americans, as there's no profit in harming the pipeline infrastructure... however, terrorists can/would profit. Very simple remote detonated bombs on pipeline terminals, bridges, distribution points, in a couple dozen locations, would shut down the country within days. If oil (gasoline/diesel) stops flowing out of the refineries to the end points (If the terrorists didn't take out the refineries also), it's what you have in your fuel tank... use it wisely.

History is a cruel mistress... hard cold facts rule! At one time, the entire world only knew about white swans... If was a swan, it was white. Until, amazingly black swans were discovered. 

History cannot inform us about future Black Swan events.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The central govt. may not fall completely, but I can see local govt.s abandoning the central govt. The current central govt. is suing AZ, and threatening to sic the UN on them. Of course, we've been through this situation before... back in 1776.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks WIHH for the reminder about Entitlement type folks, how they sit down and wait for someone to come take care of them.

By the time the Entitlementistas realize help isn't coming, it'll be too late to get out.

It's the mobile affluent Entitled's that I'm still going to worry about.


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## Sparticle (Nov 1, 2004)

I'm not even remotely where I want us to be in being prepared, but we work on it every single day. Right now getting a solid house built, garden plots in and soil prepared for next years garden. There are so many things a thoughtful person tries to prepare their family for. Weather or natural disasters or the worst case scenario complete collapse. There are people that are prepping for 2012. As for me, I don't have a specific time or thing I"m prepping for. I could prep all day and still get smashed by a tree during a tornado or suffocate or starve from acrid air from a massive volcano. But I think it's smart to have (my personal goal) at least a year of dried and canned food, a safe solid house that requires little to no heating or cooling, wood burning stoves and tools that don't require power. We have solar power but realistically if the whole world does come to an end as we know it and my batteries are broken, that's it for solar power. So we are doing our best and enjoying life. That's the main thing, enjoy the life that we have now. My goals aren't that much different than a homesteader from the old days when they didn't know about 2012 or roving hordes. Their goals were have enough saved up in case a crop fails, did that make them religious freaks - nope just made 'em smart. Their day wasn't spent thinking about the worst case scenario, I don't think. I think they thought about other things while inside and outside preparing for LIFE. Things about nature, the seasons, their families, their God. Lets think about those beautiful things as we prepare. 

I'm from the gulf coast and like Texican have seen some bad things during hurricane evacuations. And contrary to what another poster said - that the hordes can just get gas and food further out - nope not really. Not my experience. Anywhere within a drive of a tank of gas was pretty much out of gas, out of food, out of water, out of cash - at least for me. But I was prepared and afraid. If the situation had been more desperate, it wouldn't have taken many people to over take me and take what I had in my truck. Also cell phones stop working so can't even call family and see if they have anything. Going through a hurricane evacuation will get the "it can't happen here" out of you really fast. 

So for those that think it can't happen here, let them keep their heads in the sand and their butts exposed to anything that might come along and kick it. Sometimes nothing but a little taste of what could happen will change a person.


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## Sparticle (Nov 1, 2004)

willbuck1 said:


> Ok so the God helps those who helps themselves isn't straight from the bible. There is a verse about a wise man buys stores of food and oil. Jesus did say that those who don't own a sword should buy one. God helps the weak but in no place that I know of does the bible advocate not taking care of yourself if able nor does it say to allow yourself to be a victim. I am not a Christian but have read the bible and while not an expert on it I don't think that the message was give up and wait for the Lord to provide. It says he will provide but in my opinion that means you need to follow the warnings he gives you.


There is a verse about the virgins being prepared with oil and those without oil will be outside gnashing their teeth.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

from Sparticle


> My goals aren't that much different than a homesteader from the old days when they didn't know about 2012 or roving hordes. Their goals were have enough saved up in case a crop fails, did that make them religious freaks - nope just made 'em smart. Their day wasn't spent thinking about the worst case scenario, I don't think. I think they thought about other things while inside and outside preparing for LIFE. Things about nature, the seasons, their families, their God. Lets think about those beautiful things as we prepare.



The above is sorta what I expect. Just being similar to an old fashioned, not go to the store often, out in the country farmer, homesteader, person....
Normal for early 1900's maybe. 
But they had time for socials, and porch sitting after the work was done.

I hope this forum is more geared to that type of expectance, just being Old Fashioned Ready, for what life throws at us - even emergencies of all kinds. Or as ready as we can be with knowledge and tools and such, for a big event.

Angie


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## Pouncer (Oct 28, 2006)

The threat of being cut off from supply is a very real one for me. I personally plan on prepping with an eye towards five to ten years...naturally I have a long ways to go but I am getting there. 

Should local government fall apart, I fully expect several family members and possibly a couple of neighbors to join me. But until then, it will be just me with the rifle, taking potshots and keeping raiders at bay. 

And yes there will be raiders in every area-in my view, these will be gangs, or the loose equivalent of a gang. The numerous unemployed 20 somethings who have never worked hard at anything their entire lives, have been given whatever they want, and now they will just take it instead, by force. Those are the ones I worry about the most. 

However, I am a pretty good shot, and you can incapacitate someone rather quickly with a few well placed .22 rounds, never mind the heavier calibers. 

Whatever scenario you think will play out, one of the most productive things you can do, is to identify and mitigate your weaknesses. JMO.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Sparticle said:


> We have solar power but realistically if the whole world does come to an end as we know it and my batteries are broken, that's it for solar power.


Unfortunately batteries will eventually die...
However, the panels would still produce power, and you could 'fire' up the computer, mp3 player, dvd player, etc. and utilize the power while the sun was shining. More'n likely, we'd all be slaving away while the sun shines, trying to grow something to eat. At least I could listen to music while working...


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## Sparticle (Nov 1, 2004)

texican said:


> More'n likely, we'd all be slaving away while the sun shines, trying to grow something to eat. At least I could listen to music while working...


Exactly!


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## momofseven (Oct 10, 2008)

Cabin Fever said:


> Our government has always taken from the âwell to doâ and given to the ânot so well to do.â In a TEOTWAWKI world, if the government survives, I believe this philiosphy will continue âtake from the rich and give to the poor.â But, in a TEOTWAWKI world, the dollar will be worthless, so who will be the âwell to do?â Who will be the ones that government can take from? The new ârichâ will likely be the survivalists who prepped and who are providing for their own. It would not surprise me at all that much of what we have will be confiscated and rationed out to others....to the âhave nots.â The new tax collectors will not be collecting dollars, theyâll be collecting hard goods, materials, food and fresh water. Our government may very well end up being the "looters." The zombies don't scare me half as much legal confiscation of property. I can fight the zombies, jack booted thugs are a whole different element.



absolutely agree...and don't forget about "eminent domain" of all those really fertile pieces of land that are now home to CSA's and sustainable farming....


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

One thing history shows about us humans is that every time any kind of disaster happens, the majority of people are surprised by it. We always seem to live with the idea in the back of our mind that "It CAN'T happen to me." No matter how many times it has happened to other people, we still ignore any warnings out there. Most people miss the point of the old fable about the boy who cried Wolf. Yes, the story illustrates the reason it's bad to keep giving false alarms, but it's also bad to ignore alarms when they aren't false.


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## fugitive farmer (Sep 13, 2010)

I don't know what will happen...but I'd rather be as prepared as possible...which isn't so easy when your wife thinks your nuts and wasting your time and resources..We could have new drapes or lamps or rugs instead of a stockpile of food, water and weapons.


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## Sparticle (Nov 1, 2004)

fugitive farmer said:


> I don't know what will happen...but I'd rather be as prepared as possible...which isn't so easy when your wife thinks your nuts and wasting your time and resources..We could have new drapes or lamps or rugs instead of a stockpile of food, water and weapons.


It can be hard when partners aren't exactly on the same page. Maybe you could find a "page" closer to hers and get her on board. Maybe your preps aren't for an end of the world scenario, that's "crazy". Maybe it's just in case a big ice storm/tornado/hurricane/ flood comes through. You don't want your family to do without or her to go through any hardships that those (for example) on the gulf coast went through for a few weeks while the National guard was trying to get supplies in. If you rotate your food stock then nothing is wasted, you've just grocery shopped several months in advance. I can't tell you how handy it is to ALWAYS have rice and beans available! Maybe the guns are just for hunting so you can save money on your family's grocery bill. There are many gray areas and if the black end of the spectrum is just too far out for her, maybe gray it up a little ;-)


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## soulsurvivor (Jul 4, 2004)

I think what I see for the future would be an end of species event such as a huge asteroid hitting the planet or a possible pole shift of all the earth's crustal plates, something on the magnitude of global and major loss of all levels of life. As I read and listen on the internet I find that I'm not alone in this expectation, yet again it would be difficult to find any two that have the exact same vision of what this life-ending event would be or how it would manifest. 

I don't think the survivors will be on the surface of earth; rather they will have taken refuge in underground systems already in place to ride out the massive earth changes. The only zombie hordes will be those few humans that have found each other and are clinging to life by sheer will to survive. I think humans will celebrate finding others rather than be intent on killing off the few that happen to be left alive. 

I've always lived a life of putting back for the hard times. This is no different other than it's maybe the last time I'll have to worry about it.


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## uhcrandy (Sep 16, 2010)

Has anyone ever thought about th possibility of a group of people banding together for the common good. Look at Moses leading Israel out of egypt. Or the wagon trains of the west. I live in utah and think society could also come together in a SHTF event. Just to be clear, I am in the process of storing food, water and ammo for my family and loved ones. I plan to be prepared.
 When I watched Katrina, I was impressed by the way people acted. Would any of you rioted like that? I find great comfort in self-reliance. I am planning for myself and family. I am mentally prepared and will not panic. Most people I know are more or less like me, we are striving for self-reliance. 
In the long term (months-years) it may be a different situation, but I dont beleive my neighborhood would turn on itself. Ether way, I plan on being prepared.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

uhcrandy said:


> Has anyone ever thought about th possibility of a group of people banding together for the common good. Look at Moses leading Israel out of egypt. Or the wagon trains of the west. I live in utah and think society could also come together in a SHTF event. Just to be clear, I am in the process of storing food, water and ammo for my family and loved ones. I plan to be prepared.
> When I watched Katrina, I was impressed by the way people acted. Would any of you rioted like that? I find great comfort in self-reliance. I am planning for myself and family. I am mentally prepared and will not panic. Most people I know are more or less like me, we are striving for self-reliance.
> In the long term (months-years) it may be a different situation, but I dont beleive my neighborhood would turn on itself. Ether way, I plan on being prepared.


Depends... is your neighborhood self sufficient in food production? Does everyone work? Do you have Section 8 Housing? Do you have many 'idle hands'?

If your community consumes more than it produces, things will go south in a hurry. The dead weight grasshoppers will expect to survive just like the productive prepped ants. If you are rural, with grain and livestock operations, your chances are better than if you're urban and only grow street lamps.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2010)

FourDeuce said:


> One thing history shows about us humans is that every time any kind of disaster happens, the majority of people are surprised by it. We always seem to live with the idea in the back of our mind that "It CAN'T happen to me." No matter how many times it has happened to other people, we still ignore any warnings out there. Most people miss the point of the old fable about the boy who cried Wolf. Yes, the story illustrates the reason it's bad to keep giving false alarms, but it's also bad to ignore alarms when they aren't false.


Ain't THAT the truth!!


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