# Raise the minimum wage



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

So, I got this whole thing figured out. People in the top 5% make 2500/hour so why not just raise the minimum wage to 2500/hour? That way we will all have income equality and the only way to go from there is up. 

Thoughts?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Works for me.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> So, I got this whole thing figured out. People in the top 5% make 2500/hour so why not just raise the minimum wage to 2500/hour? That way we will all have income equality and the only way to go from there is up.
> 
> Thoughts?


Dang! You got it figured out. I thought I was doing great at $1100 a day back in 2005. Don't tell my nephews 😂... Every generation gets more used to the give me world 🌎 depending on the breeding cycle!!! Had to play the cows part on stuff.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The modern society isn't concerned about how much they make or if it is commensurate with the job or their skills; they are concerned with how much you make.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Works for me.


My bojangles biscuits would increase too much!


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

TripleD said:


> My bojangles biscuits would increase too much!


Second thought, how much can we increase the rent???


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Raising the minimum wage is a joke on us folks - don't get suckered in and think the government is being benevolent. It's just another sneaky way for the government to get more taxes. 

Talk to someone that's gotten a pay raise and come home with less cash in their pocket. Or someone who has refused a pay raise because it's put them in a higher tax bracket.....


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

TripleD said:


> Second thought, how much can we increase the rent???


Landlords need to make 2500/hour too.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Can anyone say zimbabway! Runaway inflation is not a good thing.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Wolf mom said:


> Raising the minimum wage is a joke on us folks - don't get suckered in and think the government is being benevolent. It's just another sneaky way for the government to get more taxes.
> 
> Talk to someone that's gotten a pay raise and come home with less cash in their pocket. Or someone who has refused a pay raise because it's put them in a higher tax bracket.....


Think of the national debt and how much we would pay that down. They promise to not spend more every 4 years. 

Besides, you know you need to pay more taxes.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Evons hubby said:


> Can anyone say zimbabway! Runaway inflation is not a good thing.


But it wouldnt be inflation if we said it wasnt.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)




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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

a friend managed a very successful pizzeria in IL they raised the minimum to 10 dollars an hour Jan 1 2020 with plans to ad 1 dollar each Jan 1 till they were at 15 an hour they knew they couldn't make it work with those numbers.

it isn't just going from paying the employee who was making 8-10 to 15 it is all the payroll taxes also.

they closed in December 2019


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Minimum wage is a Leftist way to buy votes from people too stupid to understand that raising the MW contributes to inflation.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Farmerga said:


> Minimum wage is a Leftist way to buy votes from people too stupid to understand that raising the MW contributes to inflation.


That was an awful racist thang to say.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

mreynolds said:


> That was an awful racist thang to say.


Isn't everything these days? Forever and ever awomen.


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## TooGrizzlyToBear (Dec 25, 2020)

Farmerga said:


> Isn't everything these days? Forever and ever awomen.


I just spat out my metaphorical coffee.
“Amen, and a-woman”
I’m STILL laughing at that!


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

TripleD said:


> Second thought, how much can we increase the rent???


Depents on how many people can pay. I remember years ago when aircraft co. in Settle lay off just about all workers cause no contracts People left Seattle by the millions. You could rent a two bedroom house for 100 bucks a month.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

If everybody was making at least $2500 an hour It would define the new poverty level. There would be many more people in poverty, all the folks that had been making less than $2500 an hour. So much for the war on poverty.


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## Tyler520 (Aug 12, 2011)

Wolf mom said:


> Raising the minimum wage is a joke on us folks - don't get suckered in and think the government is being benevolent. It's just another sneaky way for the government to get more taxes.
> 
> Talk to someone that's gotten a pay raise and come home with less cash in their pocket. Or someone who has refused a pay raise because it's put them in a higher tax bracket.....


Yep.the Laffer Curve has a 100% historic accuracy rate. It applies to income and taxation equally. But in today's world, feeling that you did something "good" is better than actually doing something good,even if what you did to make yourself feel good results in the completely opposite of what you thought you would accomplish


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Pretty simple arithmetic-- You run a business that makes an acceptable profit. You make it while paying 10 employees each $10/hr-- total payroll $100/hr x 8 hr/d = $800/d --that's $80/worker; total 80 man-hrs per day.

They raise min wage to $15/hr, so in order to maintain your barely acceptable profit, you have to keep weekly payroll at that same $800...To do that, 800/15 = 53 man-hrs per day, or 6.6 workers -- You'd have to fire 3.4 workers.

So in the end, 6.6 workers would get richer (while working harder), but 3.4 would have no income at all....What happened to Income Equality?

The Socialists whine "You can't raise a family on $10/hr"... Who says you're supposed to?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Tyler520 said:


> Yep.the Laffer Curve has a 100% historic accuracy rate. It applies to income and taxation equally. But in today's world, feeling that you did something "good" is better than actually doing something good,even if what you did to make yourself feel good results in the completely opposite of what you thought you would accomplish


Yes, that dreaded, awful, reliable Laffers curve gets in the way doesn't it?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

We don't need money. Everything will soon be free.

You will own nothing, and be happy









Here's how life could change in my city by the year 2030


It might seem odd to you, but it makes perfect sense for us in this city. Everything you considered a product, has now become a service.




www.weforum.org


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Anyone notice how chicken has got more expensive in the last ten years? I used to be able to buy a whole chicken for less than a dollar. Now you are lucky to find it less than a dollar a pound. Pilgrim's Pride and Tyson are now union and starting wages are close to 15 an hour.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> Anyone notice how chicken has got more expensive in the last ten years? I used to be able to buy a whole chicken for less than a dollar. Now you are lucky to find it less than a dollar a pound. Pilgrim's Pride and Tyson are now union and starting wages are close to 15 an hour.


I would not lay that on hourly workers. I would lay that on industry consolidation and less competition.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> Anyone notice how chicken has got more expensive in the last ten years? I used to be able to buy a whole chicken for less than a dollar. Now you are lucky to find it less than a dollar a pound. Pilgrim's Pride and Tyson are now union and starting wages are close to 15 an hour.


 I gave you a "like" because you're right about that...It's not that I like it one bit.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> Anyone notice how chicken has got more expensive in the last ten years? I used to be able to buy a whole chicken for less than a dollar. Now you are lucky to find it less than a dollar a pound. Pilgrim's Pride and Tyson are now union and starting wages are close to 15 an hour.


I have a good friend in maintenance at Pilgrims. When they have a case sale to employees he hooks me up. I got 100lbs of boneless breast and 50lbs of boneless thighs for $100 last week!


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

TripleD said:


> I have a good friend in maintenance at Pilgrims. When they have a case sale to employees he hooks me up. I got 100lbs of boneless breast and 50lbs of boneless thighs for $100 last week!


Pilgrims is owned by Brazilian JBS. The worlds largest meat processor


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

I can't remember where I recently heard or read this recently, but the minimum wage jobs weren't designed to be retired from. They're intended as a stepping stone, for the retired, youngsters in school, etc. While I think that's a quick summary, it does have a valid ring and highlights the point of education.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Turn to Walter


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## Twp.Tom (Dec 29, 2010)

I don't know what You all earn or earned , but $15 is nothing nowadays. Wages have stagnated over the last several decades- this is long overdue. Low wage earners need some incentive, otherwise its just not worth it , to work for nothing. Come on all of You 'high rollers', with all of your money- time to share a little!


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Twp.Tom said:


> I don't know what You all earn or earned , but $15 is nothing nowadays. Wages have stagnated over the last several decades- this is long overdue. Low wage earners need some incentive, otherwise its just not worth it , to work for nothing. Come on all of You 'high rollers', with all of your money- time to share a little!


A roof over your head and a full belly sounds like a good alternative to a homeless camp!?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Twp.Tom said:


> I don't know what You all earn or earned , but $15 is nothing nowadays. Wages have stagnated over the last several decades- this is long overdue. Low wage earners need some incentive, otherwise its just not worth it , to work for nothing. Come on all of You 'high rollers', with all of your money- time to share a little!


The most I ever earned was $8 hour. My investments allowed me to retire early.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Twp.Tom said:


> Come on all of You 'high rollers', with all of your money- time to share a little!


That's right - bring those who through hard work, innovation and brain power down to your sloth- like living. What I worked for is NOT yours!


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

I've always said "if you don't like what you are making at your current job, get another job". OR start your own company, assume the risk, and see if you can afford to pay workers more just because they believe they are worth more,


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Twp.Tom said:


> I don't know what You all earn or earned , but $15 is nothing nowadays. Wages have stagnated over the last several decades- this is long overdue. Low wage earners need some incentive, otherwise its just not worth it , to work for nothing. Come on all of You 'high rollers', with all of your money- time to share a little!


The real minimum wage is 0. The higher you mandate the wage to be, the more are going to be earning that 0 as their jobs are outsourced elsewhere, eliminated through technology or just economically unfeasible.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Twp.Tom said:


> I don't know what You all earn or earned , but $15 is nothing nowadays. Wages have stagnated over the last several decades- this is long overdue. Low wage earners need some incentive, otherwise its just not worth it , to work for nothing. Come on all of You 'high rollers', with all of your money- time to share a little!


The only ones that will be affected adversely by a higher minimum wage are small businesses and lower level employees. It sure as hell won't be the "high rollers".


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## audacity (Feb 14, 2020)

doc- said:


> Pretty simple arithmetic-- You run a business that makes an acceptable profit. You make it while paying 10 employees each $10/hr-- total payroll $100/hr x 8 hr/d = $800/d --that's $80/worker; total 80 man-hrs per day.
> 
> They raise min wage to $15/hr, so in order to maintain your barely acceptable profit, you have to keep weekly payroll at that same $800...To do that, 800/15 = 53 man-hrs per day, or 6.6 workers -- You'd have to fire 3.4 workers.
> 
> ...


The idea is that the 3.4 workers with "no income at all" would find other work and fill a niche where they, too, "get richer." Aren't ya'll always first in line to bang that, "If you don't like it, find a new job!!?!?" drum?

Meanwhile, the 6.6 workers can quit their excessive part-time jobs because they can self-support on only the first job. This frees positions for the 3.4 workers to fill, and shifts the need from "many part times" to "a few but full shifts." Again, more stable and better for the working class.

I spent several years working with small businesses -- both _for them, _and in support of them. There is one thing that a lot of these businesses had in common, and that was an obsession with monstrous, rapid growth. They would out-grow themselves, while never providing raises to their workers. Instead, they'd only add more workers at the bottom wage when their current staff could no longer physically support the workload (which always seemed to get worse). Many of these idiots would suck their company dry to pay for personal expenses (new house, new boat, etc). Then something happens, like a minor law changes or taxes change, and suddenly they can't afford all of their bottom-of-the-barrel employees because they didn't budget for higher human resource expenses. And who do they blame? The Democrats, or the government, or their competition, or the workers themselves for being "greedy takers" who "refuse to work." Never themselves, the business owners who should have been dripping cost-of-living adjustments and wages to keep time with their growth, and leaving their company coffers alone.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Twp.Tom said:


> I don't know what You all earn or earned , but $15 is nothing nowadays. Wages have stagnated over the last several decades- this is long overdue. Low wage earners need some incentive, otherwise its just not worth it , to work for nothing. Come on all of You 'high rollers', with all of your money- time to share a little!


Since this is a homesteading forum, I'll reply based on that group of people.
If you are a kid living at home, $15 x 40 hours=$600 before Uncle Sugar. That isn't bad walking around money with bills like their cell phone and internet and gamestop.
If you are a newlywed couple and both working for comparable incomes, $1200 a week is a living income.
If you have credit cards, multiple car payments, multiple cell phones, cable, internet, perpetual dinner out, that is a "you" problem.

Question- Why isn't hunger an incentive? Or self motivation?
I think the truth is that some want a mandated wage that includes discretional income.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Here is yet another thumbnail of a conversation I had with one of my son's college pals over the topic.

Kid- "A higher wage levels the playing field."
Me- "How so?"
Kid- "Young people need equal pay just like women."
Me- "...ok, I think that relates to the job position more than the person."
Kid- "Yeah, well, paying people better means they will do a better job."
Me- "You mean if I'm not getting their best effort at $12 an hour I would at $15?"
Kid- "Probably."
Me- "If someone is purposely slacking and getting paid for it, shouldn't I just fire them and hire someone who is willing to earn their way up the ladder?"
Kid- "That isn't fair to the guy you fired. He just wants what he deserves."
Me- "Well what about the worker that has been there for 5 years making $15?"
Kid- "That is like slavery. They should get more, a lot more."
Me- "So, like $20? $25 per hour."
Kid- "Pay them more and you'll get a better product and people will want to come back to do business with you. So you would make more money in the end."
Me- "I'd have to raise prices to absorb the higher labor costs."
Kid- "That's a myth. Besides, nobody that owns a business is living in the poor house."

Class envy
A lack of business comprehension
A bias formed off of the cliff notes of modern main stream media
Myopia. His dad is a successful music producer.

This is a kid attending a major university who is seeking a major in marketing. To be fair, he is a freshman...

BTW, the phrase "Level the playing field" is a sports analogy, and implies the participants are paid based on skills, talent and production.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

I see the usual ideological positions well represented, but there is some economic misinformation here:

1. The Laffler Curve theory (even if one accepts it as true, which is disputed) only states that overall government revenue may not increase by increasing minimum wage. It does not address disemployment effects or how the raise benefits low income workers or the general economy. So it is a red herring in this discussion.

2. The disemployment effect is greatly exaggerated in supply side economic modelling. Firstly, labour costs are a fairly small percentage of overall costs, so a raise to minimum wage if only fractionally felt on the bottom line. Secondly, these models presume that prices are immovable, even though a modest increase in price could easily accommodate paying a living wage. That's not to say that massive sudden hikes can't have a disemployment effect, but phased in predictable stages, it can be quite manageable.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> I would not lay that on hourly workers. I would lay that on industry consolidation and less competition.


Not laying it on the workers at all. When wages go up so does everything else. When that happens, the buying power is reduced again. 

Back to square one. 

And they were just as consolidated ten years ago as now. In fact, ten years ago you could but Pilgrims Pride stock at 10 cents a share. That might have been 12 years ago.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

TripleD said:


> I have a good friend in maintenance at Pilgrims. When they have a case sale to employees he hooks me up. I got 100lbs of boneless breast and 50lbs of boneless thighs for $100 last week!


Me too.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Twp.Tom said:


> I don't know what You all earn or earned , but $15 is nothing nowadays. Wages have stagnated over the last several decades- this is long overdue. Low wage earners need some incentive, otherwise its just not worth it , to work for nothing. Come on all of You 'high rollers', with all of your money- time to share a little!


Wages aren't stagnate. Big brother prints too much money making the money we do have worth less. 

Why do we always blame it on the people?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Maybe the business owners should just start printing their own money and could then pay their employees to the moon and back.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Maybe the business owners should just start printing their own money and could then pay their employees to the moon and back.


Company scrip is scrip issued by a company to pay its employees. It can only be exchanged in company stores


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

You can tell differences between the philosophies of people that just signed the back of paychecks vs. those that signed the front of paychecks quite vividly.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

audacity said:


> The idea is that the 3.4 workers with "no income at all" would find other work and fill a niche where they, too, "get richer." Aren't ya'll always first in line to bang that, "If you don't like it, find a new job!!?!?" drum?
> 
> Meanwhile, the 6.6 workers can quit their excessive part-time jobs because they can self-support on only the first job. This frees positions for the 3.4 workers to fill, and shifts the need from "many part times" to "a few but full shifts." Again, more stable and better for the working class.
> 
> I spent several years working with small businesses -- both _for them, _and in support of them. There is one thing that a lot of these businesses had in common, and that was an obsession with monstrous, rapid growth. They would out-grow themselves, while never providing raises to their workers. Instead, they'd only add more workers at the bottom wage when their current staff could no longer physically support the workload (which always seemed to get worse). Many of these idiots would suck their company dry to pay for personal expenses (new house, new boat, etc). Then something happens, like a minor law changes or taxes change, and suddenly they can't afford all of their bottom-of-the-barrel employees because they didn't budget for higher human resource expenses. And who do they blame? The Democrats, or the government, or their competition, or the workers themselves for being "greedy takers" who "refuse to work." Never themselves, the business owners who should have been dripping cost-of-living adjustments and wages to keep time with their growth, and leaving their company coffers alone.


That idea of the workers getting one full time job is nice. Not going to happen for many. Lots of business that do not wish to pay benefits are going to keep the part time job market going.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Hiro said:


> You can tell differences between the philosophies of people that just signed the back of paychecks vs. those that signed the front of paychecks quite vividly.


I do both but it has the same name front and back. I'm worth every dollar 💰...


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

audacity said:


> I spent several years working with small businesses -- both _for them, _and in support of them. There is one thing that a lot of these businesses had in common, and that was an obsession with monstrous, rapid growth. They would out-grow themselves, while never providing raises to their workers. Instead, they'd only add more workers at the bottom wage when their current staff could no longer physically support the workload (which always seemed to get worse). Many of these idiots would suck their company dry to pay for personal expenses (new house, new boat, etc). Then something happens, like a minor law changes or taxes change, and suddenly they can't afford all of their bottom-of-the-barrel employees because they didn't budget for higher human resource expenses. And who do they blame? The Democrats, or the government, or their competition, or the workers themselves for being "greedy takers" who "refuse to work." Never themselves, the business owners who should have been dripping cost-of-living adjustments and wages to keep time with their growth, and leaving their company coffers alone.


Your several years of working with small businesses is not indicative of small businesses as a whole, by a long shot.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

audacity said:


> The idea is that the 3.4 workers with "no income at all" would find other work and fill a niche where they, too, "get richer."



??? Where these alternate jobs going to magically appear from? My arithmetic just showed you there will be FEWER jobs out there.



The Paw said:


> 2. The disemployment effect is greatly exaggerated in supply side economic modelling. Firstly, labour costs are a fairly small percentage of overall costs, ....


What's the color of the shy in your universe...Over here in reality, wages & benefits are 70-90% of cost of doing business for most businesses...Don't forget, we don't build much anymore.. We're mostly providing sefvices now, ie-- ALL labor, no goods. Employer Costs for Employee Compensation - September 2020 (bls.gov)


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

That terrifying video out of Boston Dynamics should disabuse anyone of the idea that minimum wage no skill jobs are going to be around much longer, anyway. Robots don't care what wage you pay them, they don't call in sick or take maternity leave, quit or require benefits.






Continue to make it more financially feasible to buy some robots to do your brainless burger flipping or box stacking than to hire people to do it and the minimum wage argument becomes moot, but not in the way proponents hope it will.


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

HDRider said:


> I would not lay that on hourly workers. I would lay that on industry consolidation and less competition.


True. Plus there are less workers in the plants. Lots of automation.

Same with lumber mills. Very few workers, mostly machines.

Lots of regulation and insurance costs tend to raise prices.

It's only going to go up now.


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## audacity (Feb 14, 2020)

GTX63 said:


> Since this is a homesteading forum, I'll reply based on that group of people.
> If you are a kid living at home, $15 x 40 hours=$600 before Uncle Sugar. That isn't bad walking around money with bills like their cell phone and internet and gamestop.
> If you are a newlywed couple and both working for comparable incomes, $1200 a week is a living income.
> If you have credit cards, multiple car payments, multiple cell phones, cable, internet, perpetual dinner out, that is a "you" problem.
> ...


I'm single, and I'm not about to go get married to first idiot who comes along, especially not around here where any man who is still not married by his 30's isn't married for a reason (aka, he's drug-addicted or a domestic abuser or he don't want no woman).

I don't know where the hell you live, but $600 doesn't even pay for the mortgage on an acre of land, and I live out in the boonies with no access to landline or terrestrial internet.

You cannot live on $600. That is a fantasy. What should I do? Grow all my own food? How am I supposed to do that if I can't afford even basic hand tools, fencing, cages, or animal feed? Batteries? Water filtration?

I still need transportation. How am I going to pay for a car or a truck? The gas? 

I still need a phone. I still need internet. It's absolutely essential for me for work and for my side business.

_You_ might live on $600, but it's only because you may already be established or you're coasting on savings or somebody else's dime. The rest of us need real pay.

This isn't a "you" problem, this is just a very unrealistic view of what it takes to function well in our society. Now, I work a really good job in IT and I get paid well to do it, but I need every cent to bankroll my transition into homesteading. I didn't grow up with a farm to inherit and I am not going to marry someone just to "split costs", so I earn what I get. I value every dollar -- and valuing it means that I see that you can't live on the 1940's wages that you seem to think people should earn.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

That's 600 a week not a month.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

audacity said:


> I'm single, and I'm not about to go get married to first idiot who comes along, especially not around here where any man who is still not married by his 30's isn't married for a reason (aka, he's drug-addicted or a domestic abuser or he don't want no woman).
> 
> I don't know where the hell you live, but $600 doesn't even pay for the mortgage on an acre of land, and I live out in the boonies with no access to landline or terrestrial internet.
> 
> ...


There might be a reason you need to stay single 🙂 . With a post like that just buy a lottery ticket 🎟..


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Twp.Tom said:


> ...Come on all of You 'high rollers', with all of your money- time to share a little!


No.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

audacity said:


> I don't know where the hell you live, but $600 doesn't even pay for the mortgage on an acre of land, and I live out in the boonies with no access to landline or terrestrial internet.
> 
> You cannot live on $600. That is a fantasy. What should I do? Grow all my own food? How am I supposed to do that if I can't afford even basic hand tools, fencing, cages, or animal feed? Batteries? Water filtration?
> _You_ might live on $600, but it's only because you may already be established or you're coasting on savings or somebody else's dime. The rest of us need real pay.


This topic usually boils down to semantics.
Maybe the issue here is you are confusing entry level jobs (note the word "entry") with established pay for experienced/skilled/degreed workers.
Two different monkeys.
Your entire post is referring to living off that kind of money, paying mortgages, etc.
If you re read my post, entry level jobs are good money for kids, young adults at home, young couples before debt, older folks with little or no debt. It is second income for spouses.
Back to entry level; the implication is that it is temporary.

A hard truth is most of our needs are lifestyle oriented and centered around debt.
A financially stable household lives off of what it makes, not what it feels it deserves.

As a young man I was told, "If you are skilled or educated, the jobs come to you.
If you are not, you go to the jobs."


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

audacity said:


> I'm single, and I'm not about to go get married to first idiot who comes along, especially not around here where any man who is still not married by his 30's isn't married for a reason (aka, he's drug-addicted or a domestic abuser or he don't want no woman).
> 
> I don't know where the hell you live, but $600 doesn't even pay for the mortgage on an acre of land, and I live out in the boonies with no access to landline or terrestrial internet.
> 
> ...


Different parts of the country require different wages. Some places in Texas a house note is under 400 a month. I have 5 acres and a 2500 foot house, a 1500 foot shop and I pay a little over 600. 

In california that same house would cost about 3000 month. 

That is why we don't need a federally mandate for wages.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> Different parts of the country require different wages. Some places in Texas a house note is under 400 a month. I have 5 acres and a 2500 foot house, a 1500 foot shop and I pay a little over 600.
> 
> In california that same house would cost about 3000 month.
> 
> That is why we don't need a federally mandate for wages.


In my part of California your house/property would run you significantly more than that per month. You might get an 1800-2000 sq ft house in town (usually under 1/3 acre yard) for that payment, or maybe a serious fixer-upper at 1200-1500 sq ft on a couple of fairly unusable mountainous acres outside of town.

Off topic but also why I hate the nationwide federal income tax brackets.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Mish said:


> In my part of California your house/property would run you significantly more than that per month. You might get an 1800-2000 sq ft house in town (usually under 1/3 acre yard) for that payment, or maybe a serious fixer-upper at 1200-1500 sq ft on a couple of fairly unusable mountainous acres outside of town.
> 
> Off topic but also why I hate the nationwide federal income tax brackets.


Yeah that was just an uneducated guess on my part. I knew it was bad but didn't know it was that bad.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

A guy I knew as a very young adult married a gal and she got pregnant soon after.
He got fired at the department store he worked at, getting paid minimum wage plus commission. His new wife's brother worked for his dad's company and made some decent money.
My buddy confronted his brother in law and demanded that he quit and give him the job. Why?
Because he had a family and needed the money. The BIL still lived at home and could go find something else.
At the time I thought that was a rare strain of ignorance.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> Yeah that was just an uneducated guess on my part. I knew it was bad but didn't know it was that bad.


You were close until this year. I think everyone fleeing the cities has made values skyrocket.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

Years ago I suggested that the Republicans advocate a minimum wage of $1,000 an hour.

The low wage folks would vote Republican.

And a hamburger would cost $2,000.

But, hey, voters are stupid and self-serving.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

NRA_guy said:


> Years ago I suggested that the Republicans advocate a minimum wage of $1,000 an hour.
> 
> The low wage folks would vote Republican.
> 
> ...


I hope you know he was joking 😃. I will just slaughter a steer and grind it...


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## HaikuHeritage (Jan 2, 2021)

TripleD said:


> Second thought, how much can we increase the rent???


Probably couldn't, everyone would skip the middle man and buy their own homes.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

NRA_guy said:


> Years ago I suggested that the Republicans advocate a minimum wage of $1,000 an hour.
> 
> The low wage folks would vote Republican.
> 
> ...


1000 is just not enough. How would we buy tires on those new 900,000 dollar VW's?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Mish said:


> You were close until this year. I think everyone fleeing the cities has made values skyrocket.


I know several real estate investors that still want to live there but want to invest over here. They cant come out. I went and looked at a house just this weekend for one of them. Well, she is Lake Tahoe, but close enough I guess. It's what I would to do too. Make all the money there and but somewhere else. Problem is, it's not really sustainable for the state. I read that Cali census had the first population drop since 1907 this year alone. Like 60k loss. Texas had a 300k+ gain. 

I'm not sure I am happy about that though.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> I know several real estate investors that still want to live there but want to invest over here. They cant come out. I went and looked at a house just this weekend for one of them. Well, she is Lake Tahoe, but close enough I guess. It's what I would to do too. Make all the money there and but somewhere else. Problem is, it's not really sustainable for the state. I read that Cali census had the first population drop since 1907 this year alone. Like 60k loss. Texas had a 300k+ gain.
> 
> I'm not sure I am happy about that though.


If I come that way you don't have to worry about me!!!


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

audacity said:


> I'm single, and I'm not about to go get married to first idiot who comes along, especially not around here where any man who is still not married by his 30's isn't married for a reason (aka, he's drug-addicted or a domestic abuser or he don't want no woman).
> 
> I don't know where the hell you live, but $600 doesn't even pay for the mortgage on an acre of land, and I live out in the boonies with no access to landline or terrestrial internet.
> 
> ...


I hope your high dollar job doesn’t involve math or economics, because you are really, really bad at this.

if you can’t live on $28,800 a year what’s wrong with you?

you say you have to support a side job, so now you are saying you have additional income from a second job. But you didn’t add that income to your pool; you tried to subtract the expenses of your second job from your first job income. very poor accounting skills.....

I think your math and thinking on minimum wages I’d all wrong. Pretty easy to see the math is.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

If they raise the minimum wage, it will still be the bottom.
Raising the bottom of a barrel holds less water and is still the bottom.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> I know several real estate investors that still want to live there but want to invest over here. They cant come out. I went and looked at a house just this weekend for one of them. Well, she is Lake Tahoe, but close enough I guess. It's what I would to do too. Make all the money there and but somewhere else. Problem is, it's not really sustainable for the state. I read that Cali census had the first population drop since 1907 this year alone. Like 60k loss. Texas had a 300k+ gain.
> 
> I'm not sure I am happy about that though.


Yeah there's definitely a lot of weirdness going on in the housing market. What's strange is that you also can't find a run of the mill type family home in my area anymore that will stay on the market more than a day or so and they will likely go for multiples of tens of thousands over asking. According to our realtor people are pouring out of northern California (mostly the Bay area) and L.A. and into the San Diego county area. It would be interesting to see what part of California people are mostly leaving from, it seems like San Diego is just exploding, although I know other areas are emptying out - my son lives in San Fransisco and is currently apartment shopping because he can likely find a much bigger place than the current one for about a thousand dollars less a month (with parking, woohoo! lol). The rental market is bottoming out although he reports that prices for buying houses have stayed about the same. 

Interestingly, I also heard something on the radio the other day about U-Haul prices going into and out of California. It was something crazy like if you wanted to get a U-haul in the Bay area and drive it to (sorry can't remember) somewhere in Texas it would cost you around $2,500. If you wanted to go from (same town) in Texas to the Bay Area it was like $250 because they have so many trucks in Texas they need to get back to California. They had a bunch of other examples going to and from different places centering around California cities with the same cost disparity. I think that's a pretty good indicator of what direction people are moving to and from.

I agree that your ambivalence is probably well founded. There is a bit of a history of what Californian mass migrations do to the places they descend upon.

Oh, and we just went to $14.00/hour as of January first.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Economics can be extremly complex or you can make it very simple... no matter where you live or economic system used it all boils down to “there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.”.


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## audacity (Feb 14, 2020)

The Paw said:


> I see the usual ideological positions well represented, but there is some economic misinformation here:
> 
> 1. The Laffler Curve theory (even if one accepts it as true, which is disputed) only states that overall government revenue may not increase by increasing minimum wage. It does not address disemployment effects or how the raise benefits low income workers or the general economy. So it is a red herring in this discussion.
> 
> 2. The disemployment effect is greatly exaggerated in supply side economic modelling. Firstly, labour costs are a fairly small percentage of overall costs, so a raise to minimum wage if only fractionally felt on the bottom line. Secondly, these models presume that prices are immovable, even though a modest increase in price could easily accommodate paying a living wage. That's not to say that massive sudden hikes can't have a disemployment effect, but phased in predictable stages, it can be quite manageable.


Bottom line for me: 

Raising the minimum wage has been tried and it has been successful. None of the effects that people here are doom-and-glooming about actually occurred in areas where the minimum wage was raised.

Nobody is suggesting a "$1000" minimum wage, either, so anyone coming into the conversation with that isn't coming into it in good faith.





mreynolds said:


> Different parts of the country require different wages. Some places in Texas a house note is under 400 a month. I have 5 acres and a 2500 foot house, a 1500 foot shop and I pay a little over 600.
> 
> In california that same house would cost about 3000 month.
> 
> That is why we don't need a federally mandate for wages.


My point above is that $600 can't reliably be lived on.

You pay a little over $600/mo for your plot, and you're already over budget before you even pay for insurance, electricity, or your first pair of good work boots. Even if you bought something at $400/mo, you have only $200 remaining to pay for all of your most basic essentials. You can't. It's not reasonable, unless you do all your own medical care, walk everywhere, and live like it's the 1800's. 

Do you see why I was scoffing at this person suggesting people should actually be able to live on that?


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

audacity said:


> Bottom line for me:
> 
> Raising the minimum wage has been tried and it has been successful. None of the effects that people here are doom-and-glooming about actually occurred in areas where the minimum wage was raised.
> 
> ...


Are you still confused that it is $600 A WEEK?


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## audacity (Feb 14, 2020)

todd_xxxx said:


> Are you still confused that it is $600 A WEEK?


Sorry -- I thought you meant per month.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

audacity said:


> Sorry -- I thought you meant per month.


Sorry you missed the explanation which was posted through out this thread.


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## HaikuHeritage (Jan 2, 2021)

Let's drop minimum wage, but institute a universal basic income intended to cover every citizen's most base cost of living needs of housing, food, and healthcare, etc as determined by a varied panel of economists.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

HaikuHeritage said:


> Let's drop minimum wage, but institute a universal basic income intended to cover every citizen's most base cost of living needs of housing, food, and healthcare, etc as determined by a varied panel of economists.


Get out your check book, I figure my basics will cost you about $85,000 a year.


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## StL.Ed (Mar 6, 2011)

HaikuHeritage said:


> Let's drop minimum wage, but institute a universal basic income intended to cover every citizen's most base cost of living needs of housing, food, and healthcare, etc as determined by a varied panel of economists.


Better yet, let's implement price controls and make everything free!!
Nobody will ever have to worry about how much they earn; and, because prices can never go up, there won't be any inflation!
🤣


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

We should eliminate the minimum wage


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## Tyler520 (Aug 12, 2011)

doc- said:


> Pretty simple arithmetic-- You run a business that makes an acceptable profit. You make it while paying 10 employees each $10/hr-- total payroll $100/hr x 8 hr/d = $800/d --that's $80/worker; total 80 man-hrs per day.
> 
> They raise min wage to $15/hr, so in order to maintain your barely acceptable profit, you have to keep weekly payroll at that same $800...To do that, 800/15 = 53 man-hrs per day, or 6.6 workers -- You'd have to fire 3.4 workers.
> 
> ...


I would expand upon this with Another scenario for the same hypothetical employer:

If the minimum wage increases by 50%, from 10 to 15 an hour, the employer could opt to raise the price of their goods and services accordingly to make up for the lost revenue. (Of course, this assumes that the employer will maintain the same number of customers, which would not be the case - historic evidence would indicate that he would almost certainly lose customers, therefore losing revenue).

But for the sake of this hypothetical scenario, let's assume he stays in business...

If, suddenly, some unskilled menial worker with a GED is now making the same wage as, say, an intern in an architecture office with a 5 year college degree, do you think that any one is going to study for a college degree only to earn the same income as some nose picking burger flipper? Hell no! Everyone will demand a commensurate increase in income. Eventually, the cost of all goods and services will begin to rise to reach equilibrium, and in the end, we'll all just pay the same ratio of our income for said goods and services.

Inflation. Econ 101

I would also add that only 1% of US workers are actually making just minimum wage; when I was 16, my wage as a bus boy was only 2.50 an hour, but through tips, i was making the equivalent of between 18 and 21 an hour...as a bus boy, at age 16, 2 decades ago - so If you're older than 18 years of age and still only making minimum wage, you clearly have other problems in your life that a pay raise isn't going to fix.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

audacity said:


> Bottom line for me:
> 
> Raising the minimum wage has been tried and it has been successful. None of the effects that people here are doom-and-glooming about actually occurred in areas where the minimum wage was raised.
> 
> ...


Here, in California, our minimum wage has gone up 12 times in 20 years. Every time it was raised it was to lift people up from their poverty. Do you see the irony here? Minimum wage increases never work. Where has it been successful?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

audacity said:


> Bottom line for me:
> 
> Raising the minimum wage has been tried and it has been successful. None of the effects that people here are doom-and-glooming about actually occurred in areas where the minimum wage was raised.
> 
> ...


Nobody should be able to live on minimum for long.
If you have been making minimum wage for more than a few months, you probably should ask yourself why.
People are expected to work their way up. You aren't going to drop out of high school and make $100,000 a year unless you put in your time, work hard, get educated or sleep with the boss.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

audacity said:


> Bottom line for me:
> 
> Raising the minimum wage has been tried and it has been successful. None of the effects that people here are doom-and-glooming about actually occurred in areas where the minimum wage was raised.
> 
> ...


Here are the 5 cities with the highest minimum wage currently.
Do you happen to see a pattern?
The Top 5 U.S. Cities With the Highest Minimum Wage

Your point that $600 cannot be reliably lived on is also false outside of your own world. 
As a matter of fact, there are several members of this forum, married with kids, who have openly stated their income in budget/financial threads. But again, as other members have pointed out to you repeatedly, the minimum wage is not intended to be permanent or as a sole source of income.
Why would you continually post here and expect an entry level job to be the end all?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

600 per week is gross? No problem for me. I drive 20 to 30 yr old trucks. Single, no cable and like my leftovers! I know a family member who is out of work on workman's comp getting 400 a week.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

How many time have we heard from a group with that sort of mentality that you can't expect Americans to pick fruit, clean houses, cut grass or wash dishes for a living anymore?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> How many time have we heard from a group with that sort of mentality that you can't expect Americans to pick fruit, clean houses, cut grass or wash dishes for a living anymore?


Why would they work those jobs when they can live well on the dole?


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

HDRider said:


> We should eliminate the minimum wage


Sure go back to a buck and hour rent 10 bucks a week


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

audacity said:


> Bottom line for me:
> 
> Raising the minimum wage has been tried and it has been successful. None of the effects that people here are doom-and-glooming about actually occurred in areas where the minimum wage was raised.
> 
> Nobody is suggesting a "$1000" minimum wage, either, so anyone coming into the conversation with that isn't coming into it in good faith.


If it was successful, why does it have to be raised every few years? Could it be that raising the MW increases the COL, so that the MW has to be raised again, which in turn, raises the COL..etc. etc.. ad infinitum?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

101pigs said:


> Sure go back to a buck and hour rent 10 bucks a week


Renting is almost always a poor investment for the renter.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

HDRider said:


> We should eliminate the minimum wage


Price controls never work. Price controls never will work.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

audacity said:


> Bottom line for me:
> 
> Raising the minimum wage has been tried and it has been successful. None of the effects that people here are doom-and-glooming about actually occurred in areas where the minimum wage was raised.
> 
> ...



But if 15 dollars an hour is great, why not 1000 dollars an hour? Even greater? Why stop with 15? what would ever go wrong with 1000 dollars?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Tyler520 said:


> I would expand upon this with Another scenario for the same hypothetical employer:
> 
> If the minimum wage increases by 50%, from 10 to 15 an hour, the employer could opt to raise the price of their goods and services accordingly to make up for the lost revenue. (Of course, this assumes that the employer will maintain the same number of customers, which would not be the case - historic evidence would indicate that he would almost certainly lose customers, therefore losing revenue).
> 
> ...


I dont understand. We only want to raise the minimum wage man. Why do you say all this? This has never happened in rainbow land.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

101pigs said:


> Sure go back to a buck and hour rent 10 bucks a week


Would love to. My single mom raised 5 kids on minimum wage in the 70's AND bought a 2 year old Mercury Marquis with most of the options to haul us all in. Without welfare and without food stamps. We never went without and always had shoes and clothes. Had good Christmas. Good enough anyway. 

And we walked up hill both ways..... 


Show me who can do that now?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> Would love to. My single mom raised 5 kids on minimum wage in the 70's AND bought a 2 year old Mercury Marquis with most of the options to haul us all in. Without welfare and without food stamps. We never went without and always had shoes and clothes. Had good Christmas. Good enough anyway.
> 
> And we walked up hill both ways.....
> 
> ...


My mother actually bought the Grand Marquis, a 75 model in baby blue and she worked at a motel cleaning rooms. 4'11 driving a tank of a car that Michael Jordan would have to move the seat up in.
Who can do that now? Entitlements make it fairly common.
Life choices is that ugly phrase that skews perspective though.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> My mother actually bought the Grand Marquis, a 75 model in baby blue and she worked at a motel cleaning rooms. 4'11 driving a tank of a car that Michael Jordan would have to move the seat up in.
> Who can do that now? Entitlements make it fairly common.
> Life choices is that ugly phrase that skews perspective though.


Well, I meant to say who can do that without welfare now.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

I made less than minimum wage in the military for the first few years if you broke it down to hourly pay. Single parent to only one kid or I probably wouldn't have made it, daycare took more than half my paycheck. Thank goodness for cheap mobile homes, Ramen noodles and wonderful grandparents willing to long-term lend me a car.


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## audacity (Feb 14, 2020)

mreynolds said:


> But if 15 dollars an hour is great, why not 1000 dollars an hour? Even greater? Why stop with 15? what would ever go wrong with 1000 dollars?


Because literally nobody is suggesting $1000/hour except people who aren't willing to have an honest conversation.

The rate of $15 is a general target that's been based on what wages _should_ be if they had been kept up with inflation. 

To be honest, yes, our minimum wage needs to be raised, and then it needs to be tied to inflation so that employees don't need to beg for cost-of-living adjustments from unscrupulous employers who literally get away with paying people _less _each year, or try to convince their workers that a standard COL is a "merit raise" that must be earned. A secondary bonus to this would be eliminating this dumb, distracting argument for years to come.



Farmerga said:


> If it was successful, why does it have to be raised every few years? Could it be that raising the MW increases the COL, so that the MW has to be raised again, which in turn, raises the COL..etc. etc.. ad infinitum?


Because inflation. That's how this works. When COL rises, your employer should be giving you a COL adjustment. When you don't get a COL adjustment, you are literally working for less than you originally agreed each passing year. This holds true regardless of whether you are paid minimum wage or not. The reason we have this argument over and over every few years is because each time we raise the minimum wage, we neglect to tie it to inflation. 




Cornhusker said:


> If you have been making minimum wage for more than a few months, you probably should ask yourself why.


The answer to "why" is that it is standard practice in many areas or across many industries; the fact is, you are a resource and nothing more. Businesses do not want to spend money on you, because they want you (the resource) for free if they can get it. When all of the power rests with employers, they can just about set whatever wage they wish and potential workers have to accept that. It has nothing to do with education, skill, or ability. 

And before you suggest "you should have gotten a better job", remember that this phenomenon is spreading. For example, software engineers have been able to name their price for a while now -- but as more and more companies have figured out they can assembly-line software development or outsource it to the other side of the planet, an engineer's bargaining power is getting pulled down closer to the level of a McDonald's employee's bargaining power with each passing year. 

And there is no such thing as "working your way up" anymore. Do you even know how major employers function? Management is frequently pulled straight out of college or from outside, they are not pulled from the working ranks within. Middle-management and below are frequently paid similar (if not the same) rates as the entry-level workers they are supervising. This is exactly why young people now "job hop", because it's literally the only reliable way to boost salary.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

There are tons of $15 per hour jobs in this country, right now where employers would love to find people to fill them. Almost every trade imaginable is starving for good labor and they can't get enough people to fill the positions. Biggest road blocks are; not being able to pass a drug screen, inability to show up on time every day, illiteracy, and just being semi-presentable. 

The jobs are there, potential employees need to conform to what the employers need. Expecting the government to step in to raise minimum wage so you can; work flex hours, not have to read or write anything, stay stoned, and have purple hair down to your rear end, and a body covered with tattoos and piercings, plus give you full benefits, retirement and insurance is asking a bit much.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

I got a card in the mail from a local company looking for employees starting at $17 plus.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

audacity said:


> The answer to "why" is that it is standard practice in many areas or across many industries; the fact is, you are a resource and nothing more. Businesses do not want to spend money on you, because they want you (the resource) for free if they can get it. When all of the power rests with employers, they can just about set whatever wage they wish and potential workers have to accept that. It has nothing to do with education, skill, or ability.
> 
> And before you suggest "you should have gotten a better job", remember that this phenomenon is spreading. For example, software engineers have been able to name their price for a while now -- but as more and more companies have figured out they can assembly-line software development or outsource it to the other side of the planet, an engineer's bargaining power is getting pulled down closer to the level of a McDonald's employee's bargaining power with each passing year.
> 
> And there is no such thing as "working your way up" anymore. Do you even know how major employers function? Management is frequently pulled straight out of college or from outside, they are not pulled from the working ranks within. Middle-management and below are frequently paid similar (if not the same) rates as the entry-level workers they are supervising. This is exactly why young people now "job hop", because it's literally the only reliable way to boost salary.


That is just inaccurate. There are companies that do not value their quality employees. They usually aren't in business for long. Good employees are one of the foundations of successful businesses. Good business operators know that and hold on them like a life raft in a flood. 

I am not in that world day to day anymore. But, a few young people that I know that didn't really have a desire to go to college found employment with Fortune 500 companies. They performed their job well and were eager to learn more. They are now going to college every other semester on their employers dime and working the rest of the year. So, spare me statements like there is "'no working your way up' anymore". Perhaps you haven't found the right employer or just aren't the right employee.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Other than a small percentage taken as profits the price of goods reflect the cost of labor.... resources other than that are basically free for the harvesting thereof. Inflation is therefor very directly tied to wage increases.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

One thing I have noticed is that while minimum wage goes up a bit, the higher paying skilled labor jobs seem to be stuck at the same pay scale as they were 5 to 10 years ago.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

audacity said:


> Sorry -- I thought you meant per month.


As has been mentioned previously, plenty of folks here are making do on what you consider an unlivable income. In fact, you can browse an active thread on goats right now and see a young woman who is homesteading on substantially less; and I don't think she is complaining about it so much as planning for the future.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

audacity said:


> Because literally nobody is suggesting $1000/hour except people who aren't willing to have an honest conversation.
> 
> The rate of $15 is a general target that's been based on what wages _should_ be if they had been kept up with inflation.
> 
> ...


Ok, now you're talking. But what causes inflation? Printing money. This is the reason they won't tie wages to inflation because if they did our wages would have gone up to about 20 and hour this last year.

Here is the reason they won't do that and nor do they even really want to raise it now. Let's use a house as an example.

You buy a house in San Diego for 100k. Due to pressure of the market, in 20 years it is worth 800k. You only owe the original 100k. On paper you have made nearly 3/4 a million and are flush with money.

Now suppose you borrow the value of that house every year instead of just the first year. You're still only borrowing the value of that house or 100k. You never get ahead and will soon get behind. 

Now think of what the government does every year. They borrow 100 times what their house is worth every year. To pay it back in today's dollars is not even going to happen. They have to inflate the dollar do it makes it easier to pay back. But they won't stop borrowing. They just keep at it. So they want inflation. They need inflation. They make us believe we need it too.


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

mreynolds said:


> ........That way we will all have income equality and the only way to go from there is up.
> 
> Thoughts?


No such thing as equality. The Lion isn't equal to the Zebra, the Whale isn't equal to the Shrimp and the Shark isn't equal to the Seal.

Whenever mankind tries to "fix" things by making them equal, everything only gets screwed up.

I say, leave things up to each individual basis so you earn based on what you've had to offer and what work you've put into it.

If you have million dollar ideas which can work, you deserve a million dollars and if your ideas are dumber than dirt then you've earned your dirt.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

Evons hubby said:


> Other than a small percentage taken as profits the price of goods reflect the cost of labor.... resources other than that are basically free for the harvesting thereof. Inflation is therefor very directly tied to wage increases.


This isn't even close to accurate. Cost of goods sold is higher than labour cost in virtually all retail. Cost of food is higher than labour cost in many, if not most food service businesses. Raw materials for most manufacturing are not normally there for the harvesting.

Labour costs are often not the main cost driver, especially as we see more automation. Labour costs do have an impact on prices, but much less than most people think.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

The Paw said:


> This isn't even close to accurate. Cost of goods sold is higher than labour cost in virtually all retail. Cost of food is higher than labour cost in many, if not most food service businesses. Raw materials for most manufacturing are not normally there for the harvesting.
> 
> Labour costs are often not the main cost driver, especially as we see more automation. Labour costs do have an impact on prices, but much less than most people think.


It depends on what industry/business that you are in whether labor is your highest expense/COG or not. Most service/hospitality businesses have labor as either their highest cost or their highest variable cost. Other businesses like manufacturing have raw materials/inputs as their highest costs. And using cost of goods sold is not a measure of any of that as COG is actually accounted for differently depending on the industry that you are in. If you want to measure it objectively, it really should be on an expenditure to revenue basis.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

Hiro said:


> It depends on what industry/business that you are in whether labor is your highest expense/COG or not. Most service/hospitality businesses have labor as either their highest cost or their highest variable cost. Other businesses like manufacturing have raw materials/inputs as their highest costs. And using cost of goods sold is not a measure of any of that as COG is actually accounted for differently depending on the industry that you are in. If you want to measure it objectively, it really should be on an expenditure to revenue basis.


Just to illustrate the point, restaurants average a labour cost equal to 25% of revenues, while their food purchases are 35%.

In grocery stores, labour accounts for 12% of total revenues.

So, if a huge hike in minimum wage equal to 20% were implemented, if the restaurant owner passed the entire cost on to customers, it would only push prices up 5%.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

The Paw said:


> This isn't even close to accurate. Cost of goods sold is higher than labour cost in virtually all retail. Cost of food is higher than labour cost in many, if not most food service businesses. Raw materials for most manufacturing are not normally there for the harvesting.
> 
> Labour costs are often not the main cost driver, especially as we see more automation. Labour costs do have an impact on prices, but much less than most people think.


Food is basically free, until labor gets involved. It grows by sunlight and water from seed. The labor to plant, cultivate, harvest, sort and get to the restaurant (mostly low skilled low wage labor) is what drives up the cost to the restaurant owner. The same with nearly all manufactured goods. Yes, steel is expensive... but that’s mainly due to labor costs of mining the ore and processing into steel. The ore is free for the taking.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

The Paw said:


> Just to illustrate the point, restaurants average a labour cost equal to 25% of revenues, while their food purchases are 35%.
> 
> In grocery stores, labour accounts for 12% of total revenues.
> 
> So, if a huge hike in minimum wage equal to 20% were implemented, if the restaurant owner passed the entire cost on to customers, it would only push prices up 5%.


To illustrate Hiro's point, I owned a computer and networking business and labor was nearly 100% of my expenditures.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The Paw said:


> In grocery stores, labour accounts for 12% of total revenues.
> 
> So, if a huge hike in minimum wage equal to 20% were implemented, if the restaurant owner passed the entire cost on to customers, it would only push prices up 5%.


 And their profit margins can be 2% or less.
Speaking from experience, overhead and labor costs put onto paper with no negative variables doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means you will see them later.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Labor cost is not just the cost where the final product is delivered but labor cost spent from the start of the product until it is delivered to the consumer. The cost to the delivering business includes all those labor costs in the production process.


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## audacity (Feb 14, 2020)

Fishindude said:


> There are tons of $15 per hour jobs in this country, right now where employers would love to find people to fill them. Almost every trade imaginable is starving for good labor and they can't get enough people to fill the positions. Biggest road blocks are; not being able to pass a drug screen, inability to show up on time every day, illiteracy, and just being semi-presentable.
> 
> The jobs are there, potential employees need to conform to what the employers need. Expecting the government to step in to raise minimum wage so you can; work flex hours, not have to read or write anything, stay stoned, and have purple hair down to your rear end, and a body covered with tattoos and piercings, plus give you full benefits, retirement and insurance is asking a bit much.


Eh, in the industry I used to work in (telecom resales and MSP), there were always a ton of $15/hr jobs open but the biggest hurdle wasn't any of those things. Sure, you would sometimes get someone come in and interview and then they can't even show up on time to work, but the vast majority of the time, it was "I want an experienced worker right now!" Aka, the company in question didn't want to train. So they spent more time looking for a skilled person who'd work at a starting rate than they would have simply training an eager new person.

Your entire post acts like employees are at fault here and that all of the things you mentioned are primary traits of workers, and they're not. I'm not sure where to even begin with your second paragraph: What is wrong with flex hours? This is a _basic_ sign that a company is good for long-term employment because it means they will not fire you the instant your kid gets sick or you have to go to a doctor's appointment. Who the heck wants to work at a place for 10+ years where there can be zero flex? Nobody with any sense, that's who.

Staying stoned? Just fire workers that you see are stoned. Most people do not go to work so stoned that you would be able to tell without a drug screen. I say that as someone who has enforced this exact policy and can normally smell it on people's clothes (because I don't smoke so it's always offensive and noticeable to me). Acting like there's a huge percentage of workers not able to fill jobs because they're all stoned is not a thing.

Purple hair? When the heck was the last time you saw someone with purple hair down to their waist? And why would you even care unless Purple Hair Guy was trying to sell accounts to high-end executives? MAYBE someone adds a colored highlight, as that's still in style, maybe a college kid gets a raver dye job, maybe someone colored their hair for a holiday. But give me a break on this one. This entire comment is just a recoil of the scary image of what you think a young hipster liberal looks like.

Tattoos and piercings: The people getting facial tatts and piercings are not the people applying to nice dress-up jobs. Again, why do you care? Do you make people strip naked and turn around in front of you so you can do a body search for tattoos and piercings? Again, I say that as someone who doesn't have a single one of these, but if you are going around society these days and are noticing every single person with a tattoo peeking out from under a sleeve, you've got other problems.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Evons hubby said:


> Food is basically free, until labor gets involved. It grows by sunlight and water from seed. The labor to plant, cultivate, harvest, sort and get to the restaurant (mostly low skilled low wage labor) is what drives up the cost to the restaurant owner. The same with nearly all manufactured goods. Yes, steel is expensive... but that’s mainly due to labor costs of mining the ore and processing into steel. The ore is free for the taking.


Had a friend from the city come look at my farm. Had a big dinner, beef, veg., etc. She was eating and said gee this sure is good food and you got it all free from your garden. LOL.


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## audacity (Feb 14, 2020)

georger said:


> No such thing as equality. The Lion isn't equal to the Zebra, the Whale isn't equal to the Shrimp and the Shark isn't equal to the Seal.
> 
> Whenever mankind tries to "fix" things by making them equal, everything only gets screwed up.
> 
> ...


That works great until the guy that had a million dollar idea before you sees you, sues you on some half-assed basis, blacklists you in your own industry, uses their existing financial power to underbid you so you can achieve zero growth, and when you're finally done, they waltz in and offer you money for your idea at well below market rate because, _what else are you going to do_?

And the reason we need minimums in place on wages is because, sadly, if you allow the industry to set the wage, the employer has as much power in this exchange as the "rich guy before you" did in this scenario. They can simply _refuse _to pay what people are worth, and workers who do not have the flexible mobility to leave the geographic area and a fat wad of cash they're already sitting on to coast on while they set up else where are forced to accept the lower wages.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

audacity said:


> That works great until the guy that had a million dollar idea before you sees you, sues you on some half-assed basis, blacklists you in your own industry, uses their existing financial power to underbid you so you can achieve zero growth, and when you're finally done, they waltz in and offer you money for your idea at well below market rate because, _what else are you going to do_?
> 
> And the reason we need minimums in place on wages is because, sadly, if you allow the industry to set the wage, the employer has as much power in this exchange as the "rich guy before you" did in this scenario. They can simply _refuse _to pay what people are worth, and workers who do not have the flexible mobility to leave the geographic area and a fat wad of cash they're already sitting on to coast on while they set up else where are forced to accept the lower wages.


Kinda like facebook?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Or Amazon.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

audacity said:


> And the reason we need minimums in place on wages is because, sadly, if you allow the industry to set the wage, the employer has as much power in this exchange as the "rich guy before you" did in this scenario. They can simply _refuse _to pay what people are worth, and workers who do not have the flexible mobility to leave the geographic area and a fat wad of cash they're already sitting on to coast on while they set up else where are forced to accept the lower wages.


What are people worth?


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## audacity (Feb 14, 2020)

no really said:


> Kinda like facebook?


Actually, yes: Facebook is especially bad about buying up new technology, both competing and non-competing. Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and Apple do it, too.

It's easy to see in the entertainment and gaming industry, too, with new studios frequently getting bought and consolidated, _especially _if introducing a franchise or marketing method that makes the existing market distasteful to consumers. (Example: Deviating from microtransactions.)

And retail. Walmart has been well known for underpricing local stores to the point they go out of business and then pumping pricing.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

That is not capitalism.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

audacity said:


> Actually, yes: Facebook is especially bad about buying up new technology, both competing and non-competing. Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and Apple do it, too.
> 
> It's easy to see in the entertainment and gaming industry, too, with new studios frequently getting bought and consolidated, _especially _if introducing a franchise or marketing method that makes the existing market distasteful to consumers. (Example: Deviating from microtransactions.)
> 
> And retail. Walmart has been well known for underpricing local stores to the point they go out of business and then pumping pricing.


My point was these monopoly's destroying other business's. A large part of the time the acquisitions come through threats to put them out of business, so in reality forcing them to sell for a lot less than market value.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> And their profit margins can be 2% or less.
> Speaking from experience, overhead and labor costs put onto paper with no negative variables doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means you will see them later.


Fair point, but I wasn't suggesting that the owner take the wage increase out of net profit. I was simply illustrating that the impact of a rise in minimum wage on prices is much smaller than people were making out. Depending on the business, COGS, occupancy costs, amortization on capital investment, etc. can all be significant price drivers as well. 

At the end of the day, we should be prepared to pay a price that is proportionate to the cost of the product, including a living wage for those who make, move or sell it.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

Evons hubby said:


> Food is basically free, until labor gets involved. It grows by sunlight and water from seed. The labor to plant, cultivate, harvest, sort and get to the restaurant (mostly low skilled low wage labor) is what drives up the cost to the restaurant owner. The same with nearly all manufactured goods. Yes, steel is expensive... but that’s mainly due to labor costs of mining the ore and processing into steel. The ore is free for the taking.


Now you are arguing Marx's theory of surplus value of labour. Which is fine, but it's kind of an ivory tower approach to the problem under discussion.

In the real world, people have to pay cash money for mineral rights to dig ore, for stumpage fees to cut timber, for land if they want to plow it, and seeds if they want to plant them. Now if you are arguing for the abolition of property rights, particularly the ownership of the means of production, then count me in brother. We have nothing to lose but our chains. In the meantime, businesses have costs other than just labour, and specifically minimum-wage labour.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

audacity said:


> Because literally nobody is suggesting $1000/hour except people who aren't willing to have an honest conversation.
> 
> The rate of $15 is a general target that's been based on what wages _should_ be if they had been kept up with inflation.
> 
> ...


so, what is missing here I guess is that you don’t understand what causes inflation.

if you only had that one critical piece of info.

hummmm, now what would cause the cost of goods and services to rise? Just can’t seem to put my finger on it.

too funny,



get an education, it doesn’t have to be a college degree. Get a job and experience. Get a better job. Life is good.

or, wreck the economy for everyone, and wonder why your economy has to be ‘fixed’ every few years.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Rambler, I pondered trying to explain inflation, but gave it up as unlikely to be successful. You are, of course, spot on. Again.


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## HaikuHeritage (Jan 2, 2021)

Danaus29 said:


> One thing I have noticed is that while minimum wage goes up a bit, the higher paying skilled labor jobs seem to be stuck at the same pay scale as they were 5 to 10 years ago.


The job offers in my field are APPALLING. People want degrees (sometimes masters degrees!!!) and multiple years of experience with absurdly broad range of skills and they want to pay TWELVE DOLLARS AN HOUR.

Y'all can take that and shove it. I'd sit on the dole before I'd work for someone that had so little respect for their employees, even though I love the work that I do and enjoy working. Hell, I'll volunteer my services to a non-profit before I work for that, lol.

Bottom line is:

A) The salary gap between upper management and the workers that _actually make the profit happen_ at large multinational corporations is widening at a breakneck speed.
B) This unchecked profit explosion allows these multinational corporations to expand in a way that is putting small businesses, the ones that actually give a damn about their employees, out of business at an equally mind-blowing rate.
C) We're all freaking underpaid and fighting the campaign for fair wages ultimately only helps the giant multinational corporations and HURTS both workers and small business owners.

Quit fighting against your own best interest, folks.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I asked the question of another member earlier with no response.
What are you worth?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> I asked the question of another member earlier with no response.
> What are you worth?


It sounds like 12 bucks an hour?


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

audacity said:


> Actually, yes: Facebook is especially bad about buying up new technology, both competing and non-competing. Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and Apple do it, too.
> 
> It's easy to see in the entertainment and gaming industry, too, with new studios frequently getting bought and consolidated, _especially _if introducing a franchise or marketing method that makes the existing market distasteful to consumers. (Example: Deviating from microtransactions.)
> 
> And retail. Walmart has been well known for underpricing local stores to the point they go out of business and then pumping pricing.


something we can sort of agree on, so I better point this out.

I believe the govt should be less involved in business itself, and more involved in regulating closer to a level playing field.

You want an ever increasing minimum wage, I don’t see the point of that.

I would like to see the govt return to regulations that keep businesses innovating to win more business, not buying out all their competition and be the only poor to mediocre game in town. We used to have a much better system of these types of regulations that allowed business to work, but not monopolize. So it can be done.

the whole minimum wage thing is just a red herring, it is meaningless. Up the minimum wage and those making more than min need their wages upped and then the cost of everything goes up and inflation eats up any increase anyone had and everyone is right backwhere they started. It is pointless.

an attempt at making a fair playing field with minimalistic but strong regulations to encourage business competition, and discourage takeover, would be very beneficial to the country.

I’m not against govt, I’m just against stupid govt.

paul


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

HaikuHeritage said:


> The job offers in my field are APPALLING. People want degrees (sometimes masters degrees!!!) and multiple years of experience with absurdly broad range of skills and they want to pay TWELVE DOLLARS AN HOUR.
> 
> Y'all can take that and shove it. I'd sit on the dole before I'd work for someone that had so little respect for their employees, even though I love the work that I do and enjoy working. Hell, I'll volunteer my services to a non-profit before I work for that, lol.
> 
> ...


Iagree with your words, but I think I’m disagreeing with your point?

much of what you say makes sense.

the enemy of a small business is high labor costs, or that pesky minimum wage law.

thr big corporations and businesses get their labor cheap by putting the call center in India, buy raw product in China, have their internet/media/ graphics all done in Indochina. Part time labor is done with visa workers from aftrica, South America. They only do a few jobs in the USA. If min wage prices go up, more work gets flexed to Mexico, China, or automated and gone for good.

the small business can’t compete with that, can’t use those same cheaper resources they don’t have the scale to get on board. Throw in increased labor prices with ratcheting up min wages, and you just threw the entire mom and pop small business folk under the bus. You are helping create the bigger gap with min wage laws.

paul


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

HaikuHeritage said:


> The job offers in my field are APPALLING. People want degrees (sometimes masters degrees!!!) and multiple years of experience with absurdly broad range of skills and they want to pay TWELVE DOLLARS AN HOUR.
> 
> Y'all can take that and shove it. I'd sit on the dole before I'd work for someone that had so little respect for their employees, even though I love the work that I do and enjoy working. Hell, I'll volunteer my services to a non-profit before I work for that, lol.
> 
> ...


Just tell us what fields and skills you are adapted with?


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## HaikuHeritage (Jan 2, 2021)

rambler said:


> Iagree with your words, but I think I’m disagreeing with your point?
> 
> much of what you say makes sense.
> 
> ...


Paul, I think where the problem lies is that paying fair wages is unrealistic for small businesses because they're having to compete with the prices set by the WalMarts of the world (there's a WalMart in every sector—I'm just talking about the megacorp-types.). These corporations have artificially lowered prices by utilizing SLAVE LABOR (literally slave labor in many cases) and exploiting lax environmental protections etc elsewhere in the world where labor laws and things like protecting drinking water from contamination aren't a thing.

If we didn't have to compete with this exploitative global competition, fair wages would be easy because it would put you on a more even playing field. Would stuff cost more for all of us if we all bought American-made and produced, etc? Yep. But we'd all be getting paid more, so—again—it evens out.

As it stands, people are being forced to pay low wages and eke out tiny profit margins because multinational corporations are setting the price bar based on the advantages they have from being in a global market and exploiting folks everywhere they can.

The rampant exploitation of a globalized economy is the enemy—not fair wages.


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## HaikuHeritage (Jan 2, 2021)

TripleD said:


> Just tell us what fields and skills you are adapted with?


I have fifteen years of experience in copywriting, marketing and journalism. Journalism, of course, is a classically underpaid profession which is why I moved into marketing and copywriting. I got tired of competing with the poor desperate kids fresh out of college that were willing to work for $12 an hour, or foreigners who speak/write English as a second language. (People hire them through sites like UpWork for $5 an article. This is the dumbing down of the written word in common use in America.) Anyway, it's BS so I quit the industry/ies and started bartending at dive bars in Alaska because both the hours and pay were better. Now I raise chickens, rabbits, and heirloom herbs and tomatoes. The pay sucks, the hours suck, but at least I'm not working for the man.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

HaikuHeritage said:


> I have fifteen years of experience in copywriting, marketing and journalism. Journalism, of course, is a classically underpaid profession which is why I moved into marketing and copywriting. I got tired of competing with the poor desperate kids fresh out of college that were willing to work for $12 an hour, or foreigners who speak/write English as a second language. (People hire them through sites like UpWork for $5 an article. This is the dumbing down of the written word in common use in America.) Anyway, it's BS so I quit the industry/ies and started bartending at dive bars in Alaska because both the hours and pay were better. Now I raise chickens, rabbits, and heirloom herbs and tomatoes. The pay sucks, the hours suck, but at least I'm not working for the man.


Ok. Poor desperate kids have to work too. You would rather stay on the dole is where we split paths. They are fresh out of college just as you were. That inlies the problems most don't have backup fields.


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## HaikuHeritage (Jan 2, 2021)

TripleD said:


> Ok. Poor desperate kids have to work too. You would rather stay on the dole is where we split paths. They are fresh out of college just as you were. That inlies the problems most don't have backup fields.


I thought those were the ones that were supposed to be working at Taco Bell for minimum wage?! LOL

I'm sorry. I have too much self-respect to work for a-holes that don't appreciate me and are satisfied with sub-par results because it's cheaper. Sue me. Enjoy trying to get blood from a turnip.  

"Backup fields" is something older generations didn't have to have because employers used to value them and take care of them and work hard to keep them happy for their entire careers. Good luck finding that these days! Wait... didn't someone point that out earlier.

Now we exist in a labor economy where one full-time skilled job doesn't pay the bills. If you don't have a side-hustle (hello, proliferation of MLMs and other predatory sales industries,) or a second job the traditional American Dream is no longer within reach for the average American. Au contrair, many don't even have the luxury of even one stable full-time job to supplement, but rather find themselves cobbling together multiple part-time job schedules or trying to subsist in the no-mans-land of gig economy.

Unemployment may be down, but the job market is THE PITS. Everyone's like "Hey, minimum wage jobs aren't intended for you to raise a family and pay grown-up bills on!" but heck... that's MOST of what's out there! 

Realistically, though, even $15 an hour isn't enough for an adult that is a sole-provider for dependents to get by on in most areas. It's NOT EVEN a "living wage" and still everyone is whining about the notion of having to pay it. 

Look, I get it. Your profit margins suck, too. Let's do something about that.

I haven't read all of this thread. Just feeling ranty and this seemed like a good place for it. Sorry if it's redundant.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

HaikuHeritage said:


> I thought those were the ones that were supposed to be working at Taco Bell for minimum wage?! LOL
> 
> I'm sorry. I have too much self-respect to work for a-holes that don't appreciate me and are satisfied with sub-par results because it's cheaper. Sue me. Enjoy trying to get blood from a turnip.
> 
> ...


How old are you? My profit margins don't suck! Look at my signature line... I have given you some slack on your short time here. I'm still willing to discuss this. But if you can make it on the dole stick to it...


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Most jobs that I have heard are starting at $14/hour here in Central Texas. There are about 50,000 jobs available at this time.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

There are multiple discussions going on here and it typical of why an issue like this rabbit trails to eternity.
One person complains about a minimum wage to low to survive, can't respond to examples of people who do and changes their argument.
Amazon isn't Katy's Breads & Butters. San Diego isn't Soggy Bottom.
Everyone is hiring but I'm worth more than they pay.
Lots of reasons for paying a higher wage but most are from folks who never ran a successful small business.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The definition of a small business isn't clear from some either from the descriptions of them as rich boat buying low ballers.
There are several successful accountants from both sides of my family who will state that a lot, not just some, but a lot of small business owners are making a comparable hourly wage to their management and staff; the difference is they are working all the time, day and night, home and on site.
They carry the debt, the insurance, the overhead and all of the responsibility.
So, when someone comes into their store wanting a job and then responds to them that the starting salary is an insult and they won't work for X, they might also be a little skewed in how they view money.

Many of these small business owners who have been forced to board up their shops and stores have been given PUA of a few hundred bucks a week. That also should be an insult.


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

I am sure most of you are unaware that the main push for a higher minimum wage is by the unions.

Minimum wage goes up 10 percent they get a 10 percent raise.

Sure, you go from 7.50 an hour, that's a 100 percent raise.

Unions get a commensurate raise. 

It isn't about helping people. Its about buying votes.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> There are multiple discussions going on here and it typical of why an issue like this rabbit trails to eternity.
> One person complains about a minimum wage to low to survive, can't respond to examples of people who do and changes their argument.
> Amazon isn't Katy's Breads & Butters. San Diego isn't Soggy Bottom.
> Everyone is hiring but I'm worth more than they pay.
> Lots of reasons for paying a higher wage but most are from folks who never ran a successful small business.


Like I said 12 bucks an hour? Cross training in the business world 🌍 is the same as doing for themselves. If you only have one skill you're limited!...


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

HaikuHeritage said:


> I thought those were the ones that were supposed to be working at Taco Bell for minimum wage?! LOL
> 
> I'm sorry. I have too much self-respect to work for a-holes that don't appreciate me and are satisfied with sub-par results because it's cheaper. Sue me. Enjoy trying to get blood from a turnip.


You have so much self respect that you would rather be on the dole because you aren't appreciated enough? Maybe your sense of entitlement is the real problem, not the low minimum wage. People that want to excel will. People that sit and whine about how much they're worth? Not a chance. Here is some news for you. People with marketable skills make money. Try to find a plumber, welder, cabinet maker that doesn't earn a good living. Don't like to work that hard? Lots of white collar jobs make great money. Sounds like you need a new career, a new attitude, or both.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Most jobs that I have heard are starting at $14/hour here in Central Texas. There are about 50,000 jobs available at this time.


Pilgrim's Pride is starting at 14.90 I think last I heard.


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## HaikuHeritage (Jan 2, 2021)

todd_xxxx said:


> You have so much self respect that you would rather be on the dole because you aren't appreciated enough? Maybe your sense of entitlement is the real problem, not the low minimum wage. People that want to excel will. People that sit and whine about how much they're worth? Not a chance. Here is some news for you. People with marketable skills make money. Try to find a plumber, welder, cabinet maker that doesn't earn a good living. Don't like to work that hard? Lots of white collar jobs make great money. Sounds like you need a new career, a new attitude, or both.


 Thanks for the valuable input. I guess you missed the fact that I did get a new career, and now I'm currently working for myself rather than people that don't value me.

People that whine about other people "being entitled" because they don't have any self-respect or value their own time and skills should possibly evaluate their attitude towards their position in the world as well. 

More likely, I suspect that if someone offered you a job that you have a lot of experience and skill for at a tremendous pay cut you'd laugh yourself out the door as well, so be kind to that high horse you're on. Don't beat him too hard.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HaikuHeritage said:


> Thanks for the valuable input. I guess you missed the fact that I did get a new career, and now I'm currently working for myself rather than people that don't value me.
> 
> People that whine about other people "being entitled" because they don't have any self-respect or value their own time and skills should possibly evaluate their attitude towards their position in the world as well.
> 
> More likely, I suspect that if someone offered you a job that you have a lot of experience and skill for at a tremendous pay cut you'd laugh yourself out the door as well, so be kind to that high horse you're on. Don't beat him too hard.


Yes and no. I was in that boat in 2008. I got offered a high paying job for nothing. I took it and showed them what I was worth and still with the same company. Now one of the biggest paid ones there. 

But I did hurt for a bit I will admit. Especially when diesel was 6 bucks a gallon and the job was 40 miles away. 

I had as family to feed and bet on myself and that company. It turned out to be a good bet. Worse case was ride it out until I found something better.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

HaikuHeritage said:


> The job offers in my field are APPALLING. People want degrees (sometimes masters degrees!!!) and multiple years of experience with absurdly broad range of skills and they want to pay TWELVE DOLLARS AN HOUR.


I have seen high training and experience requirements for Taco Bell wages in many different industries. Why bother going to college and getting a degree when you can work at a grocery store and make just as much money?


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Low starting wages are because that employer has experienced bad starting workers regularly. If you are making minimum wage after working somewhere for any measurable length of time, you are probably still overpaid.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

HaikuHeritage said:


> Thanks for the valuable input. I guess you missed the fact that I did get a new career, and now I'm currently working for myself rather than people that don't value me.
> 
> People that whine about other people "being entitled" because they don't have any self-respect or value their own time and skills should possibly evaluate their attitude towards their position in the world as well.
> 
> More likely, I suspect that if someone offered you a job that you have a lot of experience and skill for at a tremendous pay cut you'd laugh yourself out the door as well, so be kind to that high horse you're on. Don't beat him too hard.


The irony is beautiful. You accuse me of being on a high horse while explaining that you are far too valuable to work for what someone is willing to pay you. Don't talk to people about needing self respect shortly after talking about being an able bodied person that would rather go on welfare than work for a wage he thinks is beneath him. 

If someone offered me a job at a tremendous pay cut, I would say no and stay at the job I'm at. But if you are asking if I would take a job at a tremendous pay cut if the only other choice was to become a societal parasite, you're damn right I'd take the job. I just wouldn't stay at it while complaining about not being paid enough. I'd take steps to better my position, as I have in the past, along with millions of other successful people. 

I know people right now that are on the band wagon to raise the minimum wage. They cry and moan about not making enough money. So I hand them a business card my brother gave me. He works for a roofing company. They will start anyone, today, at $19 an hour, with regular raises. No experience necessary. Union pay, full benefits. All you have to do is show up and work. You know how many people have taken him up on it? They can't get enough people to work and it's worse than ever because the older guys are leaving and no one wants the jobs because it's hard work. They would rather go on the dole too. Minimum wage is not the problem. People wanting to get paid more money with no commensurate raise in effort or responsibility is the problem.


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## audacity (Feb 14, 2020)

GTX63 said:


> That is not capitalism.


It is literally what you get with unrestricted capitalism. Yes, it is capitalism in its rawest form.




Hiro said:


> Low starting wages are because that employer has experienced bad starting workers regularly. If you are making minimum wage after working somewhere for any measurable length of time, you are probably still overpaid.


Load of BS, and you know it.

If an employee is especially bad, they should just be fired. The real reason people are paid minimal wages and never given a raise is simply because the employer can get away with it because they've got the employee by the balls most of the time. Do not pretend it is anything but that.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Here is the definition from Merriam-Webster:

*Capitalism*_ refers to an economic system in which a society's means of production are held by private individuals or organizations, not the government, and where products, prices, and the distribution of goods are determined mainly by competition in a free market._

You have to understand it before you can debate it.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

audacity said:


> The real reason people are paid minimal wages and never given a raise is simply because the employer can get away with it because they've got the employee by the balls most of the time. Do not pretend it is anything but that.


Or here's a crazy thought- the job requires minimal thought, minimal decision making and minimal effort.

I do enjoy the slant the followers of class envy use to describe a false premise.
They are all rich and thieves, lol.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

audacity said:


> It is literally what you get with unrestricted capitalism. Yes, it is capitalism in its rawest form.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are some excellent online educational opportunities that teach how wages are derived that might be helpful. Or you can hold onto the ideology that you have.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

audacity said:


> It is literally what you get with unrestricted capitalism. Yes, it is capitalism in its rawest form.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In my post before yours, I just explained exactly what a person can do that is earning minimum wage and wants to earn more. The employer doesn't have you by the balls if you can simply go get another higher-paying job. The trades are overflowing with good, high paying jobs that they can't fill because they involve hard work. If you sit in a minimum wage job and "can't" do anything about it, it's because you have a victim mentality, are lazy, are not very bright, or a combination of those things. The world is full of people doing things and becoming successful, and people who have a million reasons they can't do those very same things.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The trades are desperate for warm bodies, and the word "desperate" is an understatement.
Plumbers, electricians, welders, HVAC, etc.
They will pay you while you learn.
You have to show up, turn off your cell phone and sometimes pass a drug test.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

GTX63 said:


> The trades are desperate for warm bodies, and the word "desperate" is an understatement.
> Plumbers, electricians, welders, HVAC, etc.
> They will pay you while you learn.
> You have to show up, turn off your cell phone and sometimes pass a drug test.


Yeah, my brother's roofing company even got rid of the drug test requirement because they are so desperate for people.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> What are people worth?


Some more than others


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> I asked the question of another member earlier with no response.
> What are you worth?


It depends on what value you put on my skills.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> The trades are desperate for warm bodies, and the word "desperate" is an understatement.
> Plumbers, electricians, welders, HVAC, etc.
> They will pay you while you learn.
> You have to show up, turn off your cell phone and sometimes pass a drug test.


Depends on your location. None of those trades make that much money here, even with the training, licensing and experience. Most start at $17 an hour with a few topping out around $30 if you work weird hours, weekends and are on-call most of the time. The benefits provide a bit more compensation than just the base pay.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

Danaus29 said:


> Depends on your location. None of those trades make that much money here, even with the training, licensing and experience. Most start at $17 an hour with a few topping out around $30 if you work weird hours, weekends and are on-call most of the time. The benefits provide a bit more compensation than just the base pay.


$30 an hour is more than $62,000 a year, plus full benefits. That's higher than the median income for households in the US. That isn't bad money, especially compared to the minimum wage we are talking about. If a family can't live well on $62,000 a year, I think they need to examine their money management skills.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> Depends on your location. None of those trades make that much money here, even with the training, licensing and experience. Most start at $17 an hour with a few topping out around $30 if you work weird hours, weekends and are on-call most of the time. The benefits provide a bit more compensation than just the base pay.


Have you not heard about moving. If I made some calls and hooked up to the welding trailer I could be making $75 an hour next week. I change out water heaters faster than the old one drains. It didn't start at 17 an hour but $6.50. That was years ago but I learned!!!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> It depends on what value you put on my skills.


And there lies the matter of perception.
My deceased father in law's 1935 2 owner Chevrolet Coupe is worth 12k to his sons. A buyer from Texas is willing to travel 5 states to pay them 10k. The sons won't budge a nickel. No local buyers, no other offers for the year it has been for sale. It sits.
The value of that car is what it sells for. In the end it doesn't matter a bit what you think or what your buddy tells you.
In the marketplace you can market yourself for what you think your value is. You can be insulted and complain and kick and go somewhere else, but in the end, if that old Chevy sells for 10k, no one is going to step in and supplement my mother in law the difference in money for that car.
Maybe we should require that all vehicles sell for a minimum of $15000.
That would protect the buyer and the seller, right?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> And there lies the matter of perception.
> My deceased father in law's 1935 2 owner Chevrolet Coupe is worth 12k to his sons. A buyer from Texas is willing to travel 5 states to pay them 10k. The sons won't budge a nickel. No local buyers, no other offers for the year it has been for sale. It sits.
> The value of that car is what it sells for. In the end it doesn't matter a bit what you think or what your buddy tells you.
> In the marketplace you can market yourself for what you think your value is. You can be insulted and complain and kick and go somewhere else, but in the end, if that old Chevy sells for 10k, no one is going to step in and supplement my mother in law the difference in money for that car.
> ...


I might be wrong but aren't both of you on the same page? Offer and acceptance that's a term in real estate...


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

TripleD said:


> I might be wrong but aren't both of you on the same page? Offer and acceptance that's a term in real estate...


Yep.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Jan 12, 2021


TripleD said:


> Have you not heard about moving. If I made some calls and hooked up to the welding trailer I could be making $75 an hour next week. I change out water heaters faster than the old one drains. It didn't start at 17 an hour but $6.50. That was years ago but I learned!!!


Moving seems to be the solution to everything. So move to California where the same jobs pay twice as much and the same house costs 5 times more. It's all about location. The median or average income in one area may be a whole lot less or more in another area. The cost of living may be a whole lot less or a whole lot more. Just like the old ads about moving to Alaska to earn more money. They didn't tell people that prices are several times what they were in the lower 48.

How much does your license, bonding and insurance to change water heaters cost? It's not worth the expense here unless you are doing a couple a week.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> Moving seems to be the solution to everything.


Moving has its pluses and minuses. I was away from "home" for almost 40 years. Moved back in time to spend his last three years with Dad. Luckily Mom is still with us.

Had I stayed here, I would be much poorer. I moved many times chasing a dollar. As it was, I retired in my mid 50s, bought a 150 acre farm and built a nice house. Zero debt. I started with nothing.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> Jan 12, 2021
> 
> 
> Moving seems to be the solution to everything. So move to California where the same jobs pay twice as much and the same house costs 5 times more. It's all about location. The median or average income in one area may be a whole lot less or more in another area. The cost of living may be a whole lot less or a whole lot more. Just like the old ads about moving to Alaska to earn more money. They didn't tell people that prices are several times what they were in the lower 48.
> ...


It doesn't cost me a dime. It's on rental property. How about we go another direction? Years ago I paid a man $600 for installing 600 sq ft of floating / snap lock floors. He was gone by lunch. I never had to call him again. I watched and learned, put it down in my brother's house in October. Way better quality product but saved him 10k on installation. It's all what someone learns. I do this on rentals every week.
.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> Moving has its pluses and minuses. I was away from "home" for almost 40 years. Moved back in time to spend his last three years with Dad. Luckily Mom is still with us.
> 
> Had I stayed here, I would be much poorer. I moved many times chasing a dollar. As it was, I retired in my mid 50s, bought a 150 acre farm and built a nice house. Zero debt. I started with nothing.


After chasing money for a few years I simplified things by moving. I moved to Kentucky, a lovely place where being poor is socially acceptable.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Evons hubby said:


> After chasing money for a few years I simplified things by moving. I moved to Kentucky, a lovely place where being poor is socially acceptable.


But comfortable as well?!?! That's what counts. If you're satisfied that was the plan ?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

TripleD said:


> But comfortable as well?!?! That's what counts. If you're satisfied that was the plan ?


Yup, comfy and happy with my lot in life.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

You are only worth what you can produce. That is all. If you can produce 15 an hour then someone will hire you at that wage. If you cant, they wont. If you can produce 100 an hour then go find a job that will pay that or start your own business. Everyone wants to be paid a living wage? Then go out and produce one. Get noticed and build from there.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

audacity said:


> It is literally what you get with unrestricted capitalism. Yes, it is capitalism in its rawest form.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are some jobs that are only worth so much pay, no matter the worker’s experience or education. On the other hand there are a lot of jobs and employers who would really like to find good employees and pay them a fair price. In my little slice of the world I constantly hear from managers in a variety of job types that wish they could find decent help. Personally I am self employed and could easily double my business IF I COULD FIND GOOD HELP. Pay is not the issue. As it is, I sort of pick the jobs I want and can handle with the reliable help I have. There are opportunities out there, for those that wish to make a effort.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

todd_xxxx said:


> Yeah, my brother's roofing company even got rid of the drug test requirement because they are so desperate for people.


That’s getting to be pretty common even in large business for the same reason.


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## NEPA (Feb 21, 2015)

Sorry to say but this seems to be one of those pointless discussions where both sides are firmly entrenched and there is no middle ground to be found. It feels like a discussion on gun control or abortion. These are debates that can't be won or lost. Everyone is presenting good information, but nobody is going to be swayed. Our whole country feels this way these days.


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## todd_xxxx (Apr 19, 2018)

NEPA said:


> Sorry to say but this seems to be one of those pointless discussions where both sides are firmly entrenched and there is no middle ground to be found. It feels like a discussion on gun control or abortion. These are debates that can't be won or lost. Everyone is presenting good information, but nobody is going to be swayed. Our whole country feels this way these days.


It's a struggle when people talk about how hard it is, how unfair it is, how they just can't get ahead, the system is rigged, when I can literally take them by the hand and walk them to a job that will start them at $19 an hour. Any attempt to do that is met by a myriad of excuses for why they can't do that. So yes, I think you're right that neither side will be swayed. The people that think they are victims are going to continue to talk about how unfair it all is, while the people that realize they are responsible for themselves and that no one owes them anything will continue to find these elusive good-paying jobs.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

We can raise the minimum wage by cutting taxes. 
Actually, it is fairly simple. Supply and demand. If I have a million artichokes to sell, I'll have to steeply discount them if I'm to sell them all. If Florida has a freeze, destroying the citrus crop, prices for oranges go up. Wages and wage earners are the same concept. If you learn a skill that is in short supply, employers will need to out bid others for your skills. If there is a glut of unskilled workers, wages will remain low. If you are satisfied with that, keep working. If you want a higher wage, learn a skill or become more valuable to your employer. 
The government mandated increases in wages just starts a spiral of inflation. The government can be helpful by enforcing the immigration laws. Flooding the country with unskilled laborers depresses demand for unskilled laborers, depressing wages. If 15 million illegal aliens were sent back home, the shortage of unskilled laborers would force employers to compete/attract workers with higher wages. Let the market sort it out. If you think you deserve a higher wage just because you need more money, you need a better understanding of economics. Don't push for a higher minimum wage. Push your elected officials to secure the border. Then learn a skill,


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

haypoint is correct about the "migrant" or "undocumented" worker (illegal immigrants or resident migrants) issue. When you have people who will work all day for low pay and no benefits why would you pay minimum wage and benefits to people who won't work as hard? But there is another aspect to the story. The attitude of some, probably most, young Americans is "gimme, gimme, gimme". Most American youths today have no idea how to work, show up to work on time or even do the job they hired on to do.

I had the experience of trying to train people how to do a menial, low skill job which paid better than minimum wage. I could tell you within 2 hours if a person was going to be there and collect a check, or actually do the job. Most Americans, especially young women, thought the job was beneath them and they shouldn't have to do it the way I showed them to do it. It was just fanning through mail to make sure an address was in the envelope window and making sure the envelope was sealed then putting the mail in the proper tray. Wasn't hard, boring at times, but not rocket science. I gave my trainees all the help they asked for. I wasn't mean about it but I expected them to do the work and stay off the phone. Very few returned the next day, even fewer would come back the next month.

But maybe I'm just too hard to get along with, IDK. Several of my machine operator trainees stayed for years.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

haypoint said:


> We can raise the minimum wage by cutting taxes.
> Actually, it is fairly simple. Supply and demand. If I have a million artichokes to sell, I'll have to steeply discount them if I'm to sell them all. If Florida has a freeze, destroying the citrus crop, prices for oranges go up. Wages and wage earners are the same concept. If you learn a skill that is in short supply, employers will need to out bid others for your skills. If there is a glut of unskilled workers, wages will remain low. If you are satisfied with that, keep working. If you want a higher wage, learn a skill or become more valuable to your employer.
> The government mandated increases in wages just starts a spiral of inflation. The government can be helpful by enforcing the immigration laws. Flooding the country with unskilled laborers depresses demand for unskilled laborers, depressing wages. If 15 million illegal aliens were sent back home, the shortage of unskilled laborers would force employers to compete/attract workers with higher wages. Let the market sort it out. If you think you deserve a higher wage just because you need more money, you need a better understanding of economics. Don't push for a higher minimum wage. Push your elected officials to secure the border. Then learn a skill,


The illegal migrant and cheap labor issue is going to get worse pretty quick. The new administration has already publicly made a point that they intend to reduced the average 13 year process to become a citizen to 8 years. And plan to enable ALL illegal aliens to apply and be processed. Probably going to be the one time a government program actually gets streamlined and more effective


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Redlands Okie said:


> The illegal migrant and cheap labor issue is going to get worse pretty quick. The new administration has already publicly made a point that they intend to reduced the average 13 year process to become a citizen to 8 years. And plan to enable ALL illegal aliens to apply and be processed. Probably going to be the one time a government program actually gets streamlined and more effective


I'm not sur openong the floodgates could be called streamlined or effective. With the waiting period, we allow over a million immigrants every year. Cut that list in half sounds like allowing 2 million a year. Throw in the uneducated, untrained, sick and healthy, sane and crazy, 13 million will be quite a shock to our welfare system.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The term "welfare system" is antiquated and is being modernized to something that is designed to encourage participation rather than shame.
UBI, or universal basic income is so much more appealing without the guilt or judgement past generations used as self motivation.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Im on my 60s. Use to be mim wage was the same as a 6 pack of beer


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Forcast said:


> Im on my 60s. Use to be mim wage was the same as a 6 pack of beer


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

At an earlier point in life I recall being able to drink a 6 pack of beer in an hour; that also is no longer applicable.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Don't give them any ideas.
I don't want to see beer go up to $15 per six pack !


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Fishindude said:


> Don't give them any ideas.
> I don't want to see beer go up to $15 per six pack !


Inevitable


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Cut out the middle man.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

It cost me more to make beer than to buy it


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