# Any dog for LGD



## SJSFarm (Jun 13, 2012)

I read the post in 'Goats' about the buck imprinting on the pig and was thinking that it may be possible to use any puppy- of the proper temperament- to use as a livestock guardian. 

I have all my animals inside fencing. The predators I'm concerned about are raccoons and fox. Perhaps coyotes as I know they around here, but I've not heard or seen any. 

I'd love an Anatolian or cross, but I cant find any around here. There are lots of people selling GP, but its huge! Not to mention its barking. Also, I have only 3+ acres fenced, so its a small place. 

Could I get a mixed dog - no Australian shep, heeler or other strong herding dog- and get it to imprint and serve as a warning for the animals? 

I have a 1/2 German shep, 1/2 herding dog now and she is ok with the animals, but she really want to be with the humans.

Is this possible, or because of the nature of the LGD is that really my only choice for a dog who would rather stay with the goats and chickens and without another dog or a human?

Thanks all


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Since you only have 3 acres and a dog that guards them, why do you need an LGD? Just let the dog you have stay outdoors....

I have 6 acres and the dogs I use to have [a "mixed" (German shepherd/chow/anatolian) as well as the full blood German shepherd] did fine jobs of guarding the goats/fowl from *****, possoms, foxes and even large flying predators. They did not imprint on the goats or fowl but did protect the 6 acres from predators. (They would even baby sit the kids while the grown goats were in the pasture. But then these dogs were NOT "house" dogs.)

I actually got myself an LGD because when the goats are in the back 3 acres, I'm too old to run out to tend to predators like I use to and the 2 dogs I did have both died (one of old age; other from snake bite). I chose a Bulgarian Karakachan because it is not an excessive barker. The Karakachans are a great breed (quiet, fearless and loyal) and already this little pup is alerting me to what she believes to be something needing attention. (Just this morning she woke me up with her little woof woof woof at a 5-month old baby goat yelling in the barn. Apparently that kid had been stung by a bee and this pup thought she needed attention.)

Still with your already having a dog that alerts you to dangers, why get an LGD?


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## SJSFarm (Jun 13, 2012)

My current dog can be left around the animals, with some supervision. She's been introduced to the electric chicken, but she still has the herding instinct and will chase them if they run. Besides, she prefers to stay with the humans. If we are inside, she must be too. I've replaced 3 screens because she ripped through them to get into the house when I was gone. !


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## d'vash (Apr 25, 2013)

motdaugrnds said:


> Since you only have 3 acres and a dog that guards them, why do you need an LGD? Just let the dog you have stay outdoors.... Still with your already having a dog that alerts you to dangers, why get an LGD?


Perhaps I am needing of some coffee to wake myself up, but where does the OP mention his current dog is _guarding_ his animals? 

Since his dog is very people oriented, and therefore not fulfilling the need/desire of an effective guardian, I'd say that he has a good reason to acquire a LGD.

If I am not mistaken, Walter (Sugar Mountain Farm) has a pack of LGD that aren't traditional breeds. Sure it can be done.

Bay Haven Farm (www.bayhavenfarm.com) has working Anatolians, and are roughly 6 hours (driving) from NY. I'm not sure if they breed, or have any dogs for sale but it can't hurt to contact them and ask.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Oh ok. When you said your mix was "ok with the animals" I thought you meant she did not chase them. (That prey drive can be difficult to deal with.)

It also sounds as though your dog is pretty much in control of where it spends its time. Sorry if this sounds harsh; but an LGD would need a very firm hand. I invite you to give more thought to whether or not an LGD is what you want. (I can just see a well-trained LGD attacking your present dog because it tried to chase one of its charges.)


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

I would get a non herding pup and raise them with the animals. Any dog should be able to guard 3 acres from the shade of the porch.
If you have coyotes in the area and unguarded stock, sooner or later you will see their work. What you want is the varmints to see a easy shopping opportunity as some other place, not yours.
I get an American Bulldog _(always my first choice because that is my breed so I'm very bias) _American Pit bull Terrier,Catahoola, Rottie, Black mouth cur.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

I don't think you need a dog on 3 acres, but thats just my opinion. I guarantee if you live within NY state you DO have coyotes. Most any dog will keep them away on a tiny 3 acre lot. Maybe your best bet is a pet that will tolerate the other stock. Labs are pretty territorial and bidable. It might work.


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## SJSFarm (Jun 13, 2012)

Well I have always preferred to adopt at the shelter than get one from a breeder. My opinion is mutts are the best, but was concerned this job would be too much for just any mix of dog. 
When I read that post, I just thought I could get a mutt to imprint on the goats and chickens as his family and prefer to be with them over the house - on the couch which is where Misty is right now!

ETA: would you recommend getting a new pup around the time my kids are due? Or shortly thereafter?


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

Just FYI, you get the wrong dog from the pound and he's going to eat your kids. Not all breeds and certainly not all mutts are going to have the inborn trait of bonding with and guarding a herd. There's a reason LGDs are LGDs and not retrievers or herders or rabbit dogs.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

To imprint an animal they need to be exposed to whatever is being imprinted on from birth. If you go get a 6 week old puppy it has been exposed to other dogs, had a mother and siblings and knows its a dog. Throwing it out with the livestock and thinking it will imprint and work out isn't going to happen. Even with LGD breeds there is a learning curve and training involved, plus LGD's are born with the stock and exposed to their scent, sounds and sight from birth. If you grab a mix breed puppy at 6-8 weeks old there is no way to assess it for the "proper temperament." Chances are it will not have the temperament of a LGD because neither of the parents were bred for those traits. 

So now if you rule out a herding dog mix because of prey drive what other mix is there? Sporting dog? Terrier? Hound? They are all breed for hunting. A screaming goat kid could quickly be a dead goat kid. Nearly ever other working breed outside of the LGD's will be just as likely to have as much prey drive as a herding dog. I guess you could maybe look at the companion group or toy breeds but they would likely become prey themselves and are bred to be with people. 

I have to agree with Bret4207. On three acres your probably don't even need a dog. I have 80 acres surrounded by 1000's of state and county land. We have bears, wolves, coyotes, fox skunk, racoons, you name it. I have my goats and birds perimeter fenced in with cattle panels and field fencing. Good fences last longer and don't need to be feed plus they don't kill the animals your protecting. I have yet to lose a animal to a predator other then hawks taking my pigeons which no dog is going to stop. 

Your plan of throwing a pup of unknown breeding in with your livestock is playing with fire. Maybe you will get lucky, over come the odds and it will work. However if it doesn't and your puppy ends up killing some of your goats remember not to get mad at the dog it was set up for failure.


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## Eagle1 (Jun 1, 2012)

Wait my GP doubles as duck herder, canada goose remover (leaves the domestics alone) and squirrel dog (along with my border/lab mix). She did learn from the older dogs. On the other hand the border/lab does these jobs and as well has herd chickens back to the coop and helps keep the rabbits safe. 

They all still get serious over stray dogs and coyotes are kept far afield. Almost any dog can be taught what belongs and what does not. On some things instinct help a lot. While the GP can herd it is comical compared to the border mix. If the neighbors cattle get out the border will help put them back into the pasture but the GP could care less, she does visit them in the spring to meet the babies and helps keep the calves safe when something goes after them. Heck they have even learned the difference between customer dogs (on leash) and strays. Customer dogs loose are returned to their owners unharmed often at high speed . We do try to avoid that but some people have no sense and let their dogs loose which then seem to find the chickens and rabbits and being confronted by a GP (which has terrific judgment and always uses the least amount of force) 

Oh BTW we own an RV park and have lots of guests to the public spaces so the dogs have to learn "their territory" with and without fences, as well as with and without leashes. When to guard, when to ignore and when to greet, it takes time and consistent training but can be done. We are currently working with GP/Karakachan pup (8 months) and he is doing real well just a bit shy. I prefer calm dogs for MY needs here which is way different than fully working farm.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I do believe most any dog (mixed or pureblood) can be "taught" to protect the entire 3 acres and whatever is on it; however, it takes an owner who knows how to teach it what it needs to learn while protecting it as it learns. I'm concerned that you just let your dogs do whatever they want and are looking for a dog you can just put out with your animals and do what you want it to do. Maybe you can find a grown and well-trained LGD that will; however, many will have been trained on a larger piece of land so I don't know if you would have it for long with only 3 acres.

If I were you, the first thing I would do is take my "current" dog to an obedience training school. I would teach "myself" how to "control" the dog I have before I got another.


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## Jupiter (Dec 30, 2012)

We use a GP & german sherpards. I like the GSD better, because they are easy to train & listen alot better than our GP. We used to have a rottie that was good with livestock too.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

A GP and GSD are 2 entirely different mindsets by breeding. A GP is supposed to be an independent thinker that can be trusted to stick with "his" charges and oversee their safety. That's instinctive. A GSD is supposed to fixate on doing what the boss says, not what he wants to do. It's sort of like the diff between a Lab and Beagle. The beagle follows his nose and that's about all that's expected. The Lab follows his nose, drops on a whistle, takes hand signals, guards property, stays on a down for extended periods....a whole different expectation all around. That's kinda why your GSD "listens better", he's bred to do so while the GP is supposed to do one thing- protect the flock. 

I'm not disagreeing that some dogs can adapt really well. Our GSD was great for moving our crummy neighbors cattle out of our fields, it gave her a chance to be aggressive and get rewarded for it. But I'd never let her near my lambs, much less let my Wirehaired Pointing Griffon near them. I know for sure the WPG would kill every one he could catch, but at the same time he'll chase coyotes till to cows come home. That doesn't make him a candidate for a LGD.


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## peteyfoozer (Nov 23, 2012)

Lots of dogs will make good 'farm dogs' but an "LGD" is a specific genre of dog composed of specifically developed breeds. They have low to no prey drive but fiercly protect their stock. They are independent thinkers able to choose a course of action and follow through a lot faster than you could give directions. Size of property has little to do with need, predator load is what determines that. Not all LGD's are big barkers, but depending on where you are, any barking at all could pose a problem with neighbors close by.
Just as German Shorthair Pointers are of the hunting/sporting genre, there are specific breeds of dog that are LGD's. Their instincts are usually far different than other types of dogs, such as their submissiveness to livestock. I have 2 Maremmas and when something happens the sheep run to one of them for protection while the other one faces the predator. In some situations, a farm dog will get the job done. Only you can decide what will work best in your situation. Good luck on whatever you decide!


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## LFRJ (Dec 1, 2006)

Unlike many on this board, I have a very broad definition for "LGD", which includes but is not limited to the Pyrs, Anatolians, et. al. In my mind, if your Jack Russell is protecting your hens and baby chicks from rats, its an LGD. If your zingy black lab spends its day barking with it's nose in the air and keeps hawks and osprey from touch down - and that's what you want for and need it to do- it qualifies (in my mind). Some people use donkeys or llamas. Different breeds are not the same though. They will not have the same tendencies, nor interests, and will require different training - but the needs of one farm could be vastly different from the needs of the next also, hence my broad definition of LGD.

We have 4.6 acres, 14 goats, umpteen chickens, ducks and a flock of geese. They are all fenced, but there are plenty of predators that could go over or under if our English Shepherd let them. We use farm collies. They don't stay inside with our goats, but patrol the perimeter quite well.

My father had Farm collies they both protected AND herded. As mentioned, unlike the traditional LDG's (Pyrs, Anatolians, et al) they won't bond with the goats and they need lots of means to direct all that extra energy, but they do a darn good job protecting our flock and our herd from *****, bob cats, and raptors when they see them, and that includes keeping a bear in the know that there were dogs about 2 years ago. No, they didn't take on the bear, but their presence changes the picture and keeps the predator moving down the road. Our late rough coat collie was a good ratter to boot.

I would suggest you assess your needs, the predators you are trying to guard against and keep an open mind. Pyrs I'm told need LOTS of space. We have only a few acres and aren't home during the day, so the English Sheps work best for us.

If I had a very large tract of land with a large herd, I might elect to have the traditional LGD's with a good collie for the perimeter, but for our small operation - our farm collies have been terrific as guard dogs and are perfect for our needs.


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