# Can goats learn from being punished?



## petaddict (Apr 10, 2009)

I'm pretty sure I know the answer but I thought maybe someone will have a story about how they punished a goat and it actually worked. I have a Nigerian Dwarf doe (with horns. Yes, I've learned my lesson) who bullies everyone, even goats 3 times her size. They don't have horns. Two of them are scared to death of her. This morning she plowed into one of my Nubian/Saanens and pinned her up against the wall. The big goat is pregnant so it made me even madder at my ND. I grabbed her and put her in a stall. Kind of a time out. I'm sure she'll do it again I just hoped that maybe a goat could learn.


----------



## FarmerChick (Dec 28, 2009)

will sadly will not change the dynamics of a herd

it is what it is....alpha takes control etc.

whamming happens.......you can't train a goat out of this



best choice is get rid of her if you think she is the pain in the group that can hurt others. Or separate her with another goat she likes and all that


for me being a farmer, I just make the decision to cull if something is not right in the herd. I don't play around....lol....just me.

No you can't punished herd behavior. It won't work. But yea, I wish it did!!!


----------



## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

Mine learn what they aren't supposed to do - t doesn't stop them doing it though. It just means they either look extremely sheepish, or run very fast when I catch them (depending on which goat it is)


----------



## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

She may learn not to do it while you are around, but that's it. The only other chance you could have of actually training her not to do it is getting a shock collar and being somewhere where she doesn't know you are there. She would not be able to be with the other goat without you watching for a long time. 

It's just not a good idea to keep horned goats with dehorned goats.


----------



## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

You have a little horned goat in with big goats. The horns are the way she stands her ground. I had that situation once. Though Fawn didn't outright attack my other does, she did use her horns to protect her kids or stand up for herself. You can not train this goat to stop doing what goats do. Your options are to either pen her with another horned small breed goat, have her dehorned or sell her.


----------



## petaddict (Apr 10, 2009)

I've thought about dehorning her but I've wondered how safe that is. I've thought even more of getting rid of her. She and her son were my first 2 goats. I will never get another horned goat and I always disbud my babies. Always learning. Anyone in VA want a 3 year old registered ND doe in milk who's a bully?


----------



## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

Take her horns off.

Also, goats discipline their young by biting ears and tails. If you, as the alpha, tweek her tail or ears when she does this, she'll be more respectful when you catch her and also 'get it' much better when you put her in isolation. Isolation is a good thing for bullies.


----------



## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

Since we are now experiencing winter, it's the best time of year to get her dehorned. You don't want to do it during fly season. It's relatively safe if you can find an experienced vet to do it.


----------



## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

yeah all 3 of my goats have horns, I would take her if you were closer but ahhh well. My ND buck when he was in with the girls was very mean to Gypsy, now he is in his own little pen. When I first got him boy did he and my Saanen Sugarbaby fight for dominance, the buck learned who was boss, but the first time I saw him wham Gypsy in the side I finished his pen real quick...its been so much more relaxing now for all of us.


----------



## FarmerChick (Dec 28, 2009)

I only have horned goats. Boers
I never disbud etc

the herd is the herd. it is their life. if you want polled goats etc. then do that---but remember the "power" is in the skull also. A dehorned goat hits another it is darn near the same impact.

It is what they do.

A goat with no horns is a tad safer to you than one with. BUT the head slam is almost no diff. to the goat getting whacked..lol


----------



## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I have horned goats and disbudded. I disbud all my kids because being miniatures, some do go for pets - and the disbudded kids generally market better. Personally, I don't mind if they have horns. They hook or hit each other often, wether or not they have horns. It is goat behavior, and you'll never teach them otherwise, disbudded or not.

To reduce injury in herds - disbudded or not - increase the number of feeders or grain feeding stations in flock type situations. Also make sure your housing is amply large enough and that there is always an escape route for them. I have personally never had a horn injury either to myself or to the goats... sure there have been bruises and scrapes but I've gotten worse from them stepping on my toes, LOL, and they were all accidental. To train a goat not to use horns on you, I grab an ear and YANK their heads away. They learn awful quick.  A 'time out' certainly won't teach her. Animals teach each other what is acceptable and unacceptable through pain. I don't recommend horns to anyone but it seems to me she is acting like a normal goat.


----------



## petaddict (Apr 10, 2009)

I know she's just being a goat but she still makes me mad. There's plenty of room and I feed them separately except for hay but I put that in several different places so they have options. Also, I don't think she's doing it because she's little and they're big. She was like this before I added big goats. Just feeling ----ed off at her today I guess.


----------



## jordan (Nov 29, 2006)

Every now and then you just get a bully. I'm talking nasty mean to the other goats above and beyond establishing hierarchy. They drive me crazy and I tend to sell them off. It seems that when they go to another herd, since the dynamics are different, the new owners don't seem to have the same problems. I have found that certain goats I've had seemed to reproduce their nasty temperaments, even when the kids were pulled at birth and bottle fed with no interaction with mom. I sold them too. Hated to lose the genetics, but I won't put up with it. 
Good luck!
Lois


----------



## DQ (Aug 4, 2006)

FarmerChick said:


> A dehorned goat hits another it is darn near the same impact.
> 
> It is what they do.
> 
> A goat with no horns is a tad safer to you than one with. BUT the head slam is almost no diff. to the goat getting whacked..lol


i agree. the horns as far as "whacking force" are more of an emotional fear thing for humans then anything to do with how much force is applied. get hit with a baseball bat.... it hurts. doens't hurt any worse to get hit with a baseball bat that has two things sticking out of the top. in fact it might broaden the impact area and reduce the force on any one spot. maybe thats why horned goats seem to head butt more. it hurts less to themselves due to the larger surface area that recieves the impact. :shrug: 

"hooking" another goat is different though. a goat with no horns can't hook another goat or you. this is the difference in my opinion of horns vs. horns and safety. 

so I guess what I am saying as well as farmerchick is that if she isnt' hooking the other goats with her horns then her not having horns probably won't change the bully situation or the damage she could do with headbutting. however if you band her horns or dehorn her and the top of her head is sore it might break the habit:icecream:


----------



## Natural Beauty Farm (Feb 17, 2003)

It is very safe to have an experienced vet de-horn an adult goat surgically. Don't let someone band or gouge the horn out. Shock, bleeding out could and will happen.

If she is around pregnant does, they might abort if they get slammed by horns.
She is trying to work her way up the pecking order and with pregnant herd-mates she sees an opportunity. 

If hit by a skull the force is spread out, but both parties feel it, if hit by two horns the force is greater in a smaller area. Horns act like shock absorbers for the bully, so the goat can build up more force without getting a headache.


----------



## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

petaddict said:


> I've thought about dehorning her but I've wondered how safe that is. I've thought even more of getting rid of her. She and her son were my first 2 goats. I will never get another horned goat and I always disbud my babies. Always learning. Anyone in VA want a 3 year old registered ND doe in milk who's a bully?




I would never dehorn an adult goat but that's just me.

As far as being a bully, she's being a goat & it sounds like she is the boss at your place in your herd.
She could go to another farm & end up middle or the end of the pecking order who knows but I know what you mean sometimes you just don't want to see them doing the butting even though thats what they do.


----------



## Starsmom (Nov 7, 2004)

yes it is safe for a vet to do it. Make sure they have experience in doing it. I have had several of mine done over the years and no ill effects. I did have one that was dehorned by the vet twice and his horns still continued to grow intact and normal. It was weird. One thing I always do is to get plenty of gauze and pad the top of the head well. I actually use super glue to glue the gauze down. I then wrap it around the head as well (looks like he has a sore tooth) and glue that down also. I have found that by the time the glue wears off and the gauze starts to fall off, enough healing has occurred and he won't bust it open. It also helps stop the head butting as well. Everytime he hits with his head after the dehorning, he is in extreme pain. Takes a while, but they figure it out and refrain from butting due to pain. It sometimes changes their behavior for the good.


----------



## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

Actually, I might. I am going up to VA (Indepedence)after this deep freeze ends to pick up a Saanen buck, so one more in the van won't hurt.


----------



## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

Occasional head butting in work out the pecking order, IMO, is acceptabe behavior. One who just goes around just beating on other goats just because they can...........in my herd, they go to the auction. I wil not tolerate mean goats.
IMO, it is 2 very different issues.......head butting vs. beating on other goats.


----------



## petaddict (Apr 10, 2009)

Betsy,
I sent you a PM. 
Karen


----------



## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Do you have a herd buck?

A lot of these type issue are fixed when a herd is allowed to be "natural". A good herd sire will put even the meanest nanny into it's place. He will see them start butting and want to "play".... The butting quickly ends.


----------



## petaddict (Apr 10, 2009)

stanb999, what do yo mean by "allowed to be natural"? Yes, I have a buck that I breed my does to. He's is housed with my wether (the son of the doe that is a bully and also has horns). I keep him separated from my does but they can see each other. He is a sweetie and pushover. Unfortunately the wether seems to dominate my buck. I can't imagine my buck putting anyone in their place. He makes great babies and is a gentle guy though.


----------



## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

petaddict said:


> stanb999, what do yo mean by "allowed to be natural"? Yes, I have a buck that I breed my does to. He's is housed with my wether (the son of the doe that is a bully and also has horns). I keep him separated from my does but they can see each other. He is a sweetie and pushover. Unfortunately the wether seems to dominate my buck. I can't imagine my buck putting anyone in their place. He makes great babies and is a gentle guy though.


We house all our herd together with two exceptions. When kidding if it's real cold or when being milked the does stay in the barn as well. The rest are just outside or in the case of summer they all go to the "summer" pasture.


Before you ask it... We know when the goats get bred by watching them and paying attention to their actions. It's kinda easy if you get used to it.


----------



## petaddict (Apr 10, 2009)

I only have 4 does and they're all in milk or due in March so I don't keep any of them with my buck. I'd love for them to all run together but I don't want my one doe pregnant yet and I don't want my buck stinking up the barn they're in. Actually, it would be wonderful if they could all be in the pasture together. More room and the one doe couldn't be as pushy. I'd love to keep all gates open. That would make things so much easier.


----------



## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

stanb999 said:


> We house all our herd together with two exceptions. When kidding if it's real cold or when being milked the does stay in the barn as well. The rest are just outside or in the case of summer they all go to the "summer" pasture.
> 
> 
> Before you ask it... We know when the goats get bred by watching them and paying attention to their actions. It's kinda easy if you get used to it.


Don't they get bred back too quickly? What breed(s) do you have?


----------



## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

southerngurl said:


> Don't they get bred back too quickly? What breed(s) do you have?


Nope, they only breed in mid-fall. 

breeds.....Hmmm well I have LaMancha / Alpine crossed with Boer, then they are crossed with LaMancha/Alpine/Boer. I'm at generation 4. So they aren't exactly any recognized breed.

I'm breeding them for myself to be what I want. A hardy cold tolerant goat that gives moderately to well in the milk department while on pasture.


----------



## Tasha Fisher (Jun 3, 2018)

betsy h. said:


> Take her horns off.
> 
> Also, goats discipline their young by biting ears and tails. If you, as the alpha, tweek her tail or ears when she does this, she'll be more respectful when you catch her and also 'get it' much better when you put her in isolation. Isolation is a good thing for bullies.


Best response ive seen.and it actually works.i would even recommend that u give a little pinch on the ear not enouph to cause pain but just enouph to let them know ur serious.


----------



## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Hi Tasha, 

This thread is originally from 2010. While searching the forums is great, we try to refrain from dredging up old threads by commenting on them unless necessary. Most of these members don't frequently post anymore so a reply to them will likely go unseen and the issue has generally been resolved, one way or another by this point.  

Welcome to the forum!


----------

