# Ivomec sub q



## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

I have no experience, I've always used it orally. After carefully instructing my new 4H kids how to worm their goats, one little fellow went home, his dad said "no way can you use it this way" and they dosed their goats sub q. I'm not going to argue with them if it works anyway. They dosed them the same dosage I wrote down to use orally, which I use as .5 cc per 25 lbs, because that's what I've found works in this area. No, we didn't do fecals on their goats. I suggested it but they neglected to bring fecal sample to meeting. Sigh. I thought I read somewhere that it goes through their system too fast to work this way. If its going to work, I'd rather pick my battles with this family. *they know everything about everything even though they call me at least once a day*

Thanks for any advice.


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## annie716 (Oct 4, 2006)

My vet said to give it sub q also, I did that the first time I used it before I knew it could be given orally. Works either way for me but I hate giving shots so from here on out it will be oral. I think it was the same dose but can't remember for sure.


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

owch! Painful sub-q! It stings!


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

It doesn't work both ways equally. Goats have very fast metabolisims, if you give it orally it slows down the amount of time it is in the goats system so it works more thoroughly, stays in the system for over 12 hours. Give subq, it speeds through the system and is gone very quickly...both ways have huge milk withdrawal times on the carrier.

There are alot of univeristy websites now to read, not just Texas A&M anymore that state this exact thing, that all wormers are given orally for goats. Now at labeled dosages, ivermectin subq does treat one type of lice, mites and nosebots. Vicki


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

I googled but didn't find info I could just print out and give it to the know it all, er, the father. The goats in question look pretty thrifty, so I won't worry about them, but I want them to know how to do it correctly.


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## Sweet Goats (Nov 30, 2005)

We had only ever given it sub Q until I came here. I have to say I really questioned the oral way, but I figured if so many people do it and it works, and no one has lost any goat due to it, then it must be ok. Because of the way it stings sub Q I refuse to give it that way ever again. So thanks everyone here for the oral suggestion.


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## Tam319 (Jan 6, 2007)

Would it not depend on the product purchased?? There is an Ivomec oral drench (for sheep but people do use with goats) and the Ivomec ingectable product (also off label use as its for sheep, swine and cattle). Our vet recommends injectable, but I know a lot of producers swear by the drench. The problem with the drench (as far as I can tell) is that is isn't effective against lice.

If you think sub Q in goats sucks try giving it to a pot bellied pig!! LOL We did sub Q shots this week and trying to find a bit of loose skin on those babies!! LOL


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

I think my problem's been solved. I am taking all my 4H kids to a big goat conference next month, where they're signed up to participate in a ton of youth activities (which include proper worming techniques). Know it all dad is insisting on attending so I signed him up for the parasite management lecture and told him he "better take notes and share with everyone".


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## Dee (May 12, 2002)

Tam319 said:


> Would it not depend on the product purchased?? There is an Ivomec oral drench (for sheep but people do use with goats) and the Ivomec ingectable product (also off label use as its for sheep, swine and cattle). Our vet recommends injectable, but I know a lot of producers swear by the drench. The problem with the drench (as far as I can tell) is that is isn't effective against lice.


Yea, you would think but the products are not made for goats (I believe someone once said that the sheep drench isn't strong enough for goats) so the company will not confirm that it works on goats. Believe me, I called them and told them they should make a goat wormer because goats are becoming more popular. She agreed but said that the research takes too long. So that is why we all listen to the experience breeders like Vicki.

Many of us have gone through the horse paste stage. And now use a combination of Valbazin and Cydectin because the Ivermictin no longer works. 

By the way, I know of dog breeders that use the Ivermectin injectable cow wormer for their dogs as a heartworm preventative.


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## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

Dee, that's like the warning on the Ivomec box that it can kill dogs, so don't use it. But then you go get Heartguard, and what is the active ingredient? (You get just ONE guess...)

I use the pour-on with goats as a pour-on, and in acute cases, orally. Worming them is always secondary to worm cycle management, and is done by FAMACHA and my own observations rather than by schedule. We are very close to using no wormer at all now on the place. Not there yet, but that's the goal. Ivermectin still works, as always, because we are not "culling" for the resistant worms by using a scheduled worming as a first-line defense. It is a very different way to do it, but it works.

UNDER EDIT: Oh yeah, Doc, I have a neighbor who used it sub-q, too. Ever see it done? Knocks the goat right down on her ass, then she gets back up. He claimed, "That's how I know it is working."  I think that is the WORST way to use the product.


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

You can always refer them to Dr. Mary Smith's book. She is a leader in goat medicine and works for Cornell. She says give it orally ! Know it all people are so much fun. I also use it at 1 cc per 50lbs given orally.

Patty


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## Tam319 (Jan 6, 2007)

Hmm! Very interesting. That is good to know. We used Ivomec injectable sub Q 2 weeks ago and it did pack a sting as the girls were crying with each injection. I am glad to hear that ppl have had success with using it orally. I've done my horse's deworming orally with the injectable drug. I might give it a try.

Thanks!


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## Sweet Goats (Nov 30, 2005)

Patty0315 said:


> You can always refer them to Dr. Mary Smith's book. She is a leader in goat medicine and works for Cornell. She says give it orally ! Know it all people are so much fun. I also use it at 1 cc per 50lbs given orally.
> 
> Patty


Patty, do you have the name of that book? I hate to say it but I think we are all guilty of being those Know it all people. I mean if you tell someone something different, then you appear to be that person. Also Patty I use the Ivomectin at a rate of 1cc per 40 pounds. Do you think that makes a big difference? I have seen so many different weights that people range it by. thanks.


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## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

FYI, FAMACHA:
http://hub.ansc.purdue.edu/meatgoat/FAMACHA.htm

Patty and Lori, part of the deal with "Know it all people" is that there is in reality a wide degree of management systems that will work with goats. Many systems produce a product of equal quality. Systems can vary by farm because of costs, location, labor requirrments and type of goat operation.

So when someone asks a question here, and someone else says I do it like this, it is because on the person's farm, that system has been shown to work within the goals of that operation. That doesn't mean any of the following:

-- the system will work on your farm and meet your production goals
-- the system is the least-cost way to do it on your farm
-- the system is cost effective
-- the system is better than any other system
-- the person offering advice is a know it all
-- the person offering advice is correct
-- the person offering advice is wrong

It means none of those things because there are many paths to the same result, depending on individual circumstances. Only the herd will tell the farmer if any particular management technique is correct for the location and circumstances or not. Only the balance sheet will tell if it is cost effective. 

That's why, while I'll read all the university studies I can find, I carefully apply them to my own circumstances. It's also why on a message board serving the world, there really can be no A-to-B type answers to most questions.

I have fun reading how other people do it, and I still seek and enjoy producer innovation even though I have been raising goats and cattle for 16 years on the same piece of ground. On the other hand, I'm no slave to experts, and I am cautious about changing methods that have worked to achieve my goals just because they are in a book or a research paper or appear online.

Now take ivermectin poured on. For me, using the FAMACHA system, it is an easy way to spot apply ivermectin while goats are feeding. I basically just started doing it, and found it works on my farm. If we are way along on the anemia scale or there are other complications, I will administer it orally. 

But overall, almost all my parasite control is done by rotational grazing. That's why ivermectin continues to work on my farm, and probably why I can pour it on and get it to work.

Here's a university study that talks some about that:

http://animalscience.ag.utk.edu/NutritionConference/Proceedings2005/AnPeischel.pdf

I know that works on my farm in my system to meet my goals. Will it work for you? Dunno.

I have some friends who, when giving goat advice, always start out by saying, "I won't tell you what to do, but I'll tell you what works for me."


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

Patty0315 said:


> You can always refer them to Dr. Mary Smith's book. She is a leader in goat medicine and works for Cornell. She says give it orally ! Know it all people are so much fun. I also use it at 1 cc per 50lbs given orally.
> 
> Patty


She's female, he won't read it, lol.


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

Sweet Goats said:


> Also Patty I use the Ivomectin at a rate of 1cc per 40 pounds. Do you think that makes a big difference? I have seen so many different weights that people range it by. thanks.


If you're doing fecals and they're clear, then you're using the right dosage. When I first started using ivomec, I read the dosage online somewhere as .5 CC per 50 lbs, but I was still seeing parasites. I went to .5 CC per 25 lbs on the advice of someone in my area and it's working great. People are more likely to give too little than too much. I don't use sheep drench because of the sheer volume of wormer you'd have to give them. Much easier to dose with the cattle injectable.


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

The name of the book is Goat Medicine. The best way to know if 1 cc per 40lbs is working for you is to do fecals before and after.

As for the know it all people. Most of us are not. I see know it all people as ones who think they know better than the leading Vets in the field. The Vets have done studies to show why orallly works better than injection or pour on. Not to mention the years of experience of some of the folks on this board. Just because the other ways work on your animals does not mean you are not creating resistant worms. Most are not running fecals so you have no way of knowing how well it is working. Know it all people are not willing to listen and learn , they are always right no matter what anyone else has to say.

As for the FAMACHA system it is great , but you must remember it is only good for telling you if you have a blood sucking {darn whats there name ???}worm problem. I have taken the class also and it is very helpfull as long as you remember it only tells part of the story.


Patty


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

Jim S. said:


> But overall, almost all my parasite control is done by rotational grazing. That's why ivermectin continues to work on my farm, and probably why I can pour it on and get it to work.


I have very little parasite problem, including cocci - and I also rotate often.

What dosage do you use with the pour on? If it's more economical than the injectable, I would consider trying it here.


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

Patty0315 said:


> I see know it all people as ones who think they know better than the leading Vets in the field.


Eek, on this board, just mentioning VET can result in your being called a "know it all"


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## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

Patty, I'd say 16 years raising goats *profitably* ought to count for something as far as my personal knowledge. Do as you wish, and follow whatever advice you wish, in your own operation. If it works for you, great!

Speaking for myself, I've read enough studies and whatnot to know that when they are all done contradicting each other, it still comes back to Mother Nature, and following Her way is the best way. And I've got a thick skin. Many of my practices contradict the "best" advice of vets and co-ops and all of the rest of these university experts whose studies are funded by the industrial feed producers and the drug and fertilizer companies. Hmmm...do you think that funding might taint those studies? Naaaah.

The reason I love FAMACHA is, it follows Mother Nature. I find it satisfying that a practice I have been using for so long now has an official name, after being "developed" in poor countries where farmers needed something because they cannot AFFORD the regimented worming schedules the drug companies have convinced U.S. farmers are required. There are tons of university studies saying slap the wormer to 'em on a regular schedule is the only way to do it. So that must be right. You say WHAT? They are becoming resistant? Then use this more EXPENSIVE wormer!

It's like folks I read who say they use Cydectin regularly. And they cite all this vet research to support it. Cydectin is the wormer of last resort! There is nothing left after it gets tolerated, no new products in the pipeline. Then what will those "experts" do, after they have actively culled their worm populations to favor only the worms that are resistant? Well...they'll have to go to rotational grazing -- the OLDEST PROVEN METHOD of worm control. The one that works with Mother Nature. And predates the drug companies' study money.

Meanwhile, ivermectin's patent has lapsed, so I enjoy buying it as a commodity, for the cheapest price I can get it. I started out using ivermectin 16 years ago, and I still use it today. I have never used another wormer. It is just as effective now as it was back then -- because of the pasture and worming practices, not the drug.

I once brought an old goat in that it turned out was shot through with cancer, but the first thing the vet did was take a look at her and start to tell me she was shot through with WORMS. No doc, I replied, there's no worm load on my farm. This is something complex or I would have taken care of it myself instead of bringing her here. Well, he didn't believe that one...scraped some berries out of her hind end and tested them. All clear. It was only then he palpated her and found the true trouble. Since she was at the point of no return anyway, we put her down so we could find out the exact cause. I hung around and helped him with the autopsy, as steam rose out of her warm body cavity. I pointed out that he'd have a gush of excess fluid when opening, and it just spurted out of her. After I get it in the trench, I autopsy every goat that dies on my place, so I wasn't scared to help and learn by what we found. (The state lab came back it was mammary cancer that had spread to the reproductive organs. The report also said Toggenbergs are genetically susceptible to it, FWIW.) 

At the end of it all, he didn't even charge me.

I'd say 16 years of profitably raising goats counts for something. We have had ups and downs, worrying times and setbacks, but my goatherd and I have succeeded. And if you want to call me a know it all because I have successful experience, fine by me. I still learn all the time about better ways to do things from producers, because it is never good to stay stagnant, but by golly I know what has worked best, cheapest and in harmony with Nature as much as possible on my farm. So if my experience differs from a book :shrug: oh well! 

Time to feed. Have a nice day.


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

Jim , if you think my know all replys were towards you they were not. It was more towards Doc's 4h family .

Experience counts for lots. I am glad your system works for you. It would not for all. I wanted all to know the Famacha is not for all worms just one. I also believe orally is the only way to go with worming. Hit them hard and fast. The only time I use wormer as a pour on or injectable is for external parasites.

If we all had lots of land to rotate we would not need to worry as much. Lots of folks here only have a few acres.

Patty


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## Jcran (Jan 4, 2006)

I've got 2 acres, lush with any parasite that loves cool, coastal fog, long rainy days, and few freezes. I'm kind of like the club med for worms! I'd love to know how to rotate on this little ground...any suggestions? I've got the goats on about 3/4 acre-4 roomy pasturettes and a leetle holding pen next to the barnarage(the one car garage part of the ancient 4 car garage has been converted to my little piece of heaven-box stall and tack/hay). One of the pens is my buck's. I do have a "wild patch" full of berry vines, some fern, and other scrubby crud that my husband doesn't want to permanently fence for the goats...how long would I have to move them over to it to "rest" a pasture to get the load down.


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

Okay, now that we've all kissed and made up, what is the dosage for using the cattle pour on with goats? Thanks.


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