# dont ask dont tell



## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

its been 12 years since the impement of dont ask dont tell. I think it is time now to end this discriminating policy and just get rid of the gag order

the US is about the only conrty left ,outside of the axis of evil, that still discriminate.

back when i enlisted i lyed to get in. at that time they were still asking it you were gay or not. I didnt mind lying as the policy of asking was unconstitutional in my mind. gays have served honorably and heroicly in every war and conflict this country has ever been engaged in.

there is ledgistation in congress that would rid us of this policy for good ,so please contact your legislators and join me in telling them, "mr. ------- tear this wall down."


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

I think you have a right to serve without your sex life being called to attention,anymore than a heteros is.

I might not agree with your choice,but its your life,not mine.

Good luck Bob on seeing it through

BooBoo


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

mightybooboo said:


> I think you have a right to serve without your sex life being called to attention,anymore than a heteros is.
> 
> I might not agree with your choice,but its your life,not mine.
> 
> ...


thank you


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## momlaffsalot (Sep 9, 2004)

I don't think it should be an issue either way. It shouldn't be asked. Why should they care who you sleep with? And why would you want to tell them? It has nothing to do with serving in the military.


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

i agree it should be a non issue


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## Chuck (Oct 27, 2003)

momlaffsalot said:


> Why should they care who you sleep with? And why would you want to tell them? It has nothing to do with serving in the military.


Actually, it does. Being in the military involves living in extremely close quarters with other men. sharing foxholes, poncho liners, showers, etcetera. 

Most guys don't feel comfortable sharing a communal shower with a guy who is looking at them in a sexual way.

In Ranger School, you get so cold that you have to "spoon" with your ranger buddy to keep from freezing to death. I'd hate to think my ranger buddy might get any ideas while I'm sleeping.

I'm not saying gays would make poor soldiers. I'm saying they would adversely affect unit cohesion. The army isn't around to be politically correct. It's there to get the job done. Anything that adversely affects that has to be dealt with.

Obviously, that's not a popular opinion, but it's a valid one.


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## momlaffsalot (Sep 9, 2004)

Yes, but Chuck, I would be uncomfortable 'spooning' with my straight female friends! I still say it's only an issue if it's on the table. If things are so bad that you are hiding in foxholes and spooning with your commrades, I really doubt a gay man would get excited over the closeness with another man. My guess is his mind would be on surviving. Now later, when all is well, he might think about the cutie he was holding in the foxhole, but as long as he keeps it to himself, who is hurt by it?


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## Chuck (Oct 27, 2003)

It's not about whether or not he thinks he might get excited. It's whether or not I think he'd get excited.

Think of it this way. We have separate locker rooms at the YMCA. Why? Because women don't feel comfortable showering with men, for the most part. And vice versa. 

Why? Because of the sex quotient. Now, after sweating it out in the weightroom for an hour, I don't really feel very frisky, if you know what I mean. Does that mean it's okay for me to shower in the women's locker room? I mean, as long as I keep my hands to myself, who's hurt by it?

Most people can see this issue very clearly when you're talking men and women.


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## rwinsouthla (Oct 24, 2005)

Chuck said:


> It's not about whether or not he thinks he might get excited. It's whether or not I think he'd get excited.
> 
> Think of it this way. We have separate locker rooms at the YMCA. Why? Because women don't feel comfortable showering with men, for the most part. And vice versa.
> 
> ...



What Chuck said. Personally against gays in the military. Why would I want someone who is less than a full man backing me up? I was not comfortable with women in my unit, nor would I have been comfortable with gays (either men or women) in my unit. Too much of a distraction.


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## marvella (Oct 12, 2003)

excuse me... i'd like to know what you mean by... "less than a full man?" 

thanks.



rwinsouthla said:


> What Chuck said. Personally against gays in the military. Why would I want someone who is less than a full man backing me up? I was not comfortable with women in my unit, nor would I have been comfortable with gays (either men or women) in my unit. Too much of a distraction.


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## momlaffsalot (Sep 9, 2004)

marvella said:


> excuse me... i'd like to know what you mean by... "less than a full man?"
> 
> thanks.


Yeah, I was kinda wondering what that comment meant too. I didn't think we were talking about someone in the midst of a sex change, I thought we were talking about MEN who are gay and in the military and how they might get all turned on while hiding from enemy fire in a foxhole . 
Chuck, I respectfully disagree with you 100%. I don't compare working out and being tired with laying in a foxhole hoping your life isn't about to be over. I still just can't see someone getting the warmies in that situation. S'allright though. I know where you are coming from.


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## moopups (May 12, 2002)

During my time in VN there were two separate males whom declared their same sex orientations; they were both immediately removed into solitary confinement. Why? It was the only way that their lives would have not been in jeopardy from fellow troops. If your a gay male in the Marine Corps you had better keep your mouth shut and any questionable actions a long ways away from the home base.

There was a questionable medic also, but he was in the Navy, as are all MC medics, therefore not crowed on this issue. Watched, monitored, everyone knew of the orientation. Marine Corps troops walk a one way street on this issue.

Note, in all the battle history of the armed forces combined, the MC has never 'lost the flag', (been overrun by enemy troops with any member surviving).


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

Chuck said:


> Actually, it does. Being in the military involves living in extremely close quarters with other men. sharing foxholes, poncho liners, showers, etcetera.
> 
> Most guys don't feel comfortable sharing a communal shower with a guy who is looking at them in a sexual way.
> 
> ...


it is not valid at all due to that it is baced on bigotry.

the same argument was used to keep the military segregated when it comes to race. grow up and get over yourself


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

moopups said:


> During my time in VN there were two separate males whom declared their same sex orientations; they were both immediately removed into solitary confinement. Why? It was the only way that their lives would have not been in jeopardy from fellow troops. If your a gay male in the Marine Corps you had better keep your mouth shut and any questionable actions a long ways away from the home base.
> 
> There was a questionable medic also, but he was in the Navy, as are all MC medics, therefore not crowed on this issue. Watched, monitored, everyone knew of the orientation. Marine Corps troops walk a one way street on this issue.
> 
> Note, in all the battle history of the armed forces combined, the MC has never 'lost the flag', (been overrun by enemy troops with any member surviving).


bet ya didnt mind having the medic around if ya got shot


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

Chuck said:


> The army isn't around to be politically correct. It's there to get the job done. Anything that adversely affects that has to be dealt with.
> 
> .



the army is there to uphold the constitution. if the army is imposes unconstitutional policies then they are defeating the ideas in the constitution

it is liken too sacrificing freedoms for security


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## ChiliPalmer (Jul 14, 2005)

> the army is there to uphold the constitution. if the army is imposes unconstitutional policies then they are defeating the ideas in the constitution
> 
> it is liken too sacrificing freedoms for security


There is no Constitutional right to announcing your sexual preference at work and demanding everyone else give you a smile and a hearty at on the back. 

Private, personal business doesn't belong in the professional arena at all - across the board - and that's why I stand by the "don't ask, don't tell" policy. No matter what your job or personal life may be, you don't bring it to the workplace and the workplace has no business getting into your private life. 

And military men who are heterosexual owe no one their approval or tolerance. So long as their manners are appropriate, no one has the right - let alone the Constitutional right - to tell others what they are allowed to think and feel.


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

chuck, i recon you like most that serve have a feeling of duty to do so. so why would you place your personal feeling over the fellings of those that only want to serve their country just like you

the simple fact is that gays have been serving in this countrys military honorably as long as this counrty has existed and still do. the only rub is when they somehow make their preference known to others even the militarys preachers are directed to nark them off.in doing this the army has even tramped over the sanctaty of the church without any thought

as long as the US military imposes these tactics they are no better than thugs


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## birdie_poo (May 10, 2002)

I worked with 6 closeted gays in the Marine Corps. They were no less Marines because of their orientation. One of them constantly received accolades, awards and comendations for his outstanding attitude, work accomplishments and his Semper Fi attitude. he receid 2 merritorious promotions in the time that I knew him in MWSS-372, and was promoted again, on the day he was discharged from active duty. Our homophobe Captain didn't have a clue that the Marine he doled out so many conmendations for was gay, because his professionalism surpassed any other quality he had.

Another worked directly as the CO's driver. He was always getting coins from Generals who though he was an outstanding Marine.

Another was the S-1 chief. She was the deffinition of a Marine and was even on several Marine recruiting posters. She was even recruited by HQMC to become a recruiter.

Their being gay had nothing to do with their dedication to the Corps, their fellow Marines or their command.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Momlaffsalot,
Throughout this thread you have shown that you're clueless about the military lifestyle. First, you said that "if things get that bad....", and consistently referred to a "front line" scenario. Things don't HAVE to be bad for military personnel to end up together in very close confines, nor do they have to be on the front line. US Navy ships are a great example. It may not be a foxhole, but you're only two feet from your rackmates... above or below you. Heads (sorry... "bathrooms") don't afford any privacy, either.

I notice that this thread focuses on male military members. There are a LOT of female military members, as well. AND there are a LOT of GAY female military members. You don't have to ask, nor do they have to tell.... they make it obvious in subtle ways.

Bob, you say "grow up and get over it". Sorry.... while living onboard a navy vessel with lesbians, h*ll!... I might as well share the mens' berthing! They segregate sexes for a reason.... and allowing gays in the military negates that reasoning. Now there is nowhere for a heterosexual person to go where they can feel completely comfortable in their environment.


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## Chuck (Oct 27, 2003)

bob clark said:


> *it is not valid * at all due to that it is baced on bigotry.
> 
> the same argument was used to keep the military segregated when it comes to race. grow up and get over yourself



Bob, a [ame=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLR,GGLR:2006-03,GGLR:en&defl=en&q=define:Bigot&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title]bigot[/ame] is someone who is intolerant of other people's opinions. I am perfectly happy to allow you your opinion that Gays should be in the military. You apparently are not willing to allow me mine. So who is the bigot?

And how, exactly, was the desire to be free from sexual harassment used as an argument for keeping the military segregated? You lost me there.


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

EasyDay said:


> Momlaffsalot,
> Now there is nowhere for a heterosexual person to go where they can feel completely comfortable in their environment.



welcome to my world


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

Chuck said:


> And how, exactly, was the desire to be free from sexual harassment used as an argument for keeping the military segregated? You lost me there.



have you been harassed ? or is it all hypothetical to this point.


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

chuck, do you suport the dont ask dont tell policys or do you want it rolled back to what we had before? or do you have another idea with regards to the treatment of gays in the military?


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## SweetSarah (May 8, 2006)

OH my goodness. This is heated. But I do have to say I prefer the "don't ask, don't tell" way of things. I spent 4 and a half years in the army and understand very well the whole close quarters thing. Every evening of basic training included 64 naked women waiting to shower in 8 stalls, all to be completed in a timeline of oh maybe 15 minutes. So yes we shared stalls. Three of us would rotate under one shower head. And yes there were certain ladies that got to shower alone because no one wanted to share that tiny stall with them for fear of their "accidental" bumping and touching. 
I'm sure there were others who were gay but kept their lifestyle to themselves, as they should have. I'm sorry, but you can't be anything you want to be. Just as a woman can't play in the NFL, an openly gay person can not comfortably find their place in the military. We all have dreams that we cannot achieve so better to realize it and move on than cry and complain. 
Sorry if this offends anyone but just keep in mind that it's not because gay people are "icky" or "sinners". It is simply logistics.

Edit to add:

This is Sarah's husband. I agree with Chuck. The military, unlike institutions of higher learning, is not a free marketplace of ideas and beliefs; it is about getting the job done. 

Sniper selection discriminates against smokers, drinkers, and certain personalities. The commander who selects personnel with sniper potential has nothing against smokers, hell, he may be a smoker himself, but it's all about selecting the right people. Just like I don't question the smokers' desire and intentions to give his best, I also don't questions the homosexuals' desire and intentions to serve our great nation, but I think neither category is the best choice for their respective duties.

Airborne!


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

gays are not second class citizens. we have every right to defend our country just like anyone else

as far as the showers , when i was in the army most of the time we showered in privet but when we only had the open showers it wasnt a problem. I was not out at that time so the other guys didnt feel bad, and i didnt look too long or anything that would have caused concern. were there guys that i was atracted too? you bet but i assumed they were strait and left it at that

if anyone was uncomfortable it was me. but i had a job to do and i did it quite well

all this talk about peoples feelings. get over it you have a job to do ,so just do it

it is discrimination pure and simple. if you cant control your "feelings" then get a different job


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## SweetSarah (May 8, 2006)

Good idea, Bob. Let's have the majority of the military quit because of their "feelings" and we'll be left with a small number of gay people and their supporters to defend our country. Who cares that we'll be far understrength, as long as everyone is happy and no feelings are hurt. Heck, while we're at it let's skip PT and trade in MRE's for happy meals and tea parties!


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

do you realy think it is that big an issue? the ones that it causes trouble for are few


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## SweetSarah (May 8, 2006)

I think it would be a big issue if "don't ask, don't tell" was abolished. Right now, you are right, it doesn't cause MUCH trouble. But if people were allowed to be open, I feel it would cause more disturbances, an possibly even cost more money. For instance, how would you house these soldiers? They would have to have seperate barracks. All barracks would have to be remodeled. 
It would be great if everything in the world could go smoothly for everyone in it, but in many instances, it just can't. And we need to accept these things and move on. I appreciate the courage and dedication of anyone who wants to serve their country but some are simply not fit for that job and must either find another way to do so or move on and find another dream.


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

thats crazy. they are already there . housed all together. do you think being open makes a person more gay?


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## SweetSarah (May 8, 2006)

no, but it makes them more likely to 
a) make a pass at someone
b) snuggle up with their buddy in the bunk above you

I've made my points. Good luck with your thread, Bob.


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

SweetSarah said:


> no, but it makes them more likely to
> a) make a pass at someone
> b) snuggle up with their buddy in the bunk above you
> 
> I've made my points. Good luck with your thread, Bob.



if they do eather of these then i say deal with that like you would any other infraction 

contrary to most views we can control our selves

even ol' chuck would be safe spooning with me


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

I knew 2 guys who were gay in the Navy.They did their jobs.I didnt feel threatened sharing a barracks or shower room with them.They had their lives,I had mine,and we went our own ways so to speak.

Did not adversly affect the mission unless someone 'had a problem' with them.
Fortunately noone did,most werent even aware.

More power to em,they did their jobs as well as anyone.

Im sorry,discrimination is discrimination,period.
Whether you,I or anyone else disagrees,they have civil rights equal to anyone else.

That includes the right to serve in the military,like any other able bodied American who can pass a physical and an IQ test.

BooBoo


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

bob clark said:


> welcome to my world


Not so fast, Bob.
VERY different situation. Imagine yourself living on a Naval vessel for 6-8 month. You'd be a guy... who's attracted to guys... and living with guys.

Jeeez, how bad could THAT be?


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

EasyDay said:


> Not so fast, Bob.
> VERY different situation. Imagine yourself living on a Naval vessel for 6-8 month. You'd be a guy... who's attracted to guys... and living with guys.
> 
> Jeeez, how bad could THAT be?



she was talking about being comfortable in ones suroundings. i am surounded by strait people all the time.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

bob clark said:


> gays are not second class citizens. we have every right to defend our country just like anyone else


Absolutely.



bob clark said:


> i didnt look too long or anything


TOO long? That's a matter of perspective. If I feel I'm being ogled, even for a second, then you're out of line.



bob clark said:


> all this talk about peoples feelings. get over it you have a job to do ,so just do it
> 
> it is discrimination pure and simple. if you cant control your "feelings" then get a different job


I have the right to work in an environment free of people who go against the grain, making what would be a normal job into an uncomfortable scenario. We're not talking just "on the job". That's not where the majority of the issues came up.... it happened at the end of the workday when one returns back to their rack or the shower. It doesn't effect the job they do.... it effects their off-time, their "own" time, their home-away-from-home time. They can't leave... .there's nowhere else to go.

You keep telling people to "get over it" and "get over yourself". You're the one that seems to think you're "special" because of your sexual orientation. You're wrong, Bob, so YOU need to get over it.

From a female perspective, the men onboard understand sexual harrassment and, for the most part, to avoid trouble, they aren't a nuisance... yet the gay women onboard know all the ways to "get their message across" without saying it, just in case the complaint might end up in Captain's Mast.

Get over yourself, Bob!


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

bob clark said:


> she was talking about being comfortable in ones suroundings. i am surounded by strait people all the time.


MY point, Bob, is that I wouldn't care WHAT the sexual orientation was if I didn't KNOW what it was. With the guys, I didn't know (maybe other guys knew, but it wasn't made obvious in the workspace). However, the ***** made sure that the other women knew their sexual orientation. Maybe as you mentioned before.... it's for "recruitment" purposes.

I've never felt the need to walk around yelling, "I'm Straight, everybody. Look at me!"

Why do gays feel the need to announce it... if not in words, then in their actions?


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

sounds like you have had some bad experiences in the past. i am sorry about that but you will have to get past it or find another dream i guess


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

bob clark said:


> sounds like you have had some bad experiences in the past. i am sorry about that but you will have to get past it or find another dream i guess


I spent many years in the navy before the don't ask, don't tell policy came into effect. That, and quite a few other changes that were made just to appease a bunch of whiners. Sorry, and with all due respect to my former superiors, some of those decisions were just plain ole bad judgement. I stayed in, regardless, because I joined for a reason, and that reason was still valid: to serve my country. 

Since my retirement from the military, I have fulfilled my dreams that I've had since I was very young: to serve and retire from the military, then live a simple life off my pension on a farm full of critters. I'm now livin' that life, and loving it!

Nothing will change my opinion of certain topics and/or values. This thread is one of them.


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

EasyDay said:


> Nothing will change my opinion of certain topics and/or values. This thread is one of them.


nor will i

on this we can agree

good luck with your farm it sounds great. and thanks for the years of sevice to our country


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Bob,
There was a time when I considered both options that you proposed: get past it or change my dream. I guess I chose to get past it because by the time those frustrating, uncomfortable days rolled around, I only had a few years left until retirement.

The second option was NOT an option for me. I shouldn't have to change my dream because of a few people with questionable values. If they weren't allowed to be in the military, but wanted to join, they would have had to change THEIR dreams. And there's a lot less of them than there was straight folks. Would've made more sense that way.

*sigh* Well, it wasn't your call, nor was it mine. Things turned out for the best in the end, for me, anyway.

Thanks for your warm wishes and kind words.


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## moopups (May 12, 2002)

Bob Clark, please be aware that this is the Veterans Forum, not your Gay Rights platform; for many years I worked with an Interior Designer whom was a flaming gay dude. He fully understood that there was a difference in our lifestyles, there was never any offer or approach to wards anything that I would be uncomfortable with, the same attitude was issued to him from me. We even joked lightly about the differences without any static, but at the same time he did not preach any of the issues you keep repeating here. It appears you are seeking confrontation, I can place this entire post into General Chat if that is your wish.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Easy Day,I would agree with you when the issue becomes radicalized it becomes an untenable situation.

If it becomes confrontational,and Ive seen that too,I think it should be addressed as a disciplinary action if it makes the 'workplace' uninhabitable.

Get rid of the screwballs who want to make an 'issue' of it,let those who just want to go about their lives and not rub your nose in it the right to serve.

But the radical in your face type in the workplace,thats not acceptable from anyone with an agenda,whatever it may be.

I do see both sides in that regard.

BooBoo


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

moopups said:


> Bob Clark, please be aware that this is the Veterans Forum, not your Gay Rights platform; for many years I worked with an Interior Designer whom was a flaming gay dude. He fully understood that there was a difference in our lifestyles, there was never any offer or approach to wards anything that I would be uncomfortable with, the same attitude was issued to him from me. We even joked lightly about the differences without any static, but at the same time he did not preach any of the issues you keep repeating here. It appears you are seeking confrontation, I can place this entire post into General Chat if that is your wish.


it is a vet forum and a vet issue.

i am not looking to just insite . i am trying to end the discrimination that I and other vets face.

i think i have made my case the best way i know how . i am sorry if the topic offended you in any way

i will back away now and we can all go back to waving our flags


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## moopups (May 12, 2002)

Bob Clark, in that you did use the pronoun "I" 8 times within a 67 word post, may it be suggested that you review the brain chemical modification link, found in the PTSD 'Sticky'. It is what returned me to sanity via explaining how our brains hold or release different thoughts. You have probably been to the grocery store 5,000 times, none of which you remember the details; but the one time the old lady with her cane shoved you away from the last can of any given product is the one you will remember.

Apparently you have experienced such an incident somewhere in your past and are displaying it here as an unanswered issue. Just my opinion. PM me if you wish to discuss this further, you are welcome to post here in the future. I am not a mental health trained individual, but I have spoke with a lot of them via my 50% PTSD rating via the VA medical standards. There are times to check to see if your 'barking up the wrong tree'.

Part of the "I's" are Lower case, others are Upper case; apparently this issue is clouding your thinking - so much that your ignoring common grammer. This is a 'flag to me', you have been in the military, people have been 'in your face before', but at this time you have an alternative, I will listen, they would not.

The link I am requesting you read is within my first post on the PTSD sticky.


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

post deleated 

trying to be civil


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

mightybooboo said:


> Easy Day,I would agree with you when the issue becomes radicalized it becomes an untenable situation.
> 
> If it becomes confrontational,and Ive seen that too,I think it should be addressed as a disciplinary action if it makes the 'workplace' uninhabitable.
> 
> ...


BooBoo, When Bob made the comment that gays should be able to defend their country too, my answer was "definitely".

I guess my question/point to Bob was... why do some feel the need to announce their sexual orientation. I especially can't give a hoot about their preferences if I never know their preferences in the first place!

I'm pro- "don't ask, don't tell".... the problem is, only the gays seem to be the ones wanting to tell. Imagine how much worse things would get if they're permitted to dress in drag and do the hula?


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## Snowdancer (Sep 23, 2002)

EasyDay said:


> BooBoo, When Bob made the comment that gays should be able to defend their country too, my answer was "definitely".
> 
> I guess my question/point to Bob was... why do some feel the need to announce their sexual orientation. I especially can't give a hoot about their preferences if I never know their preferences in the first place!
> 
> I'm pro- "don't ask, don't tell".... the problem is, only the gays seem to be the ones wanting to tell. Imagine how much worse things would get if they're permitted to dress in drag and do the hula?



Since I don't have a dog in this fight I just have a question that maybe someone can answer.

Does the Don't Ask Don't Tell cover the social outings of soldiers on their own time. I don't know how to put it but would a soldier being brought up for discipline if they didn't tell but were seen in a gay bar or even holding hands with someone of the same gender when they are off duty and out of uniform? :shrug: 

Could this be part of what Bob was talking about-that as a hetero; on your off duty time your social life with a member of the opposite sex isn't a reason to be ousted from the military but that it would 'out' a gay soldier? That's why I'm asking-is it the same as far as the 'rules' if a gay soldier is out on a date while off duty. I'm not talking in drag or putting on a show for the public but just general 'date type' activities such as hand holding.

Any clarification would be appreciated.


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## Gunner0331 (Apr 26, 2006)

Chuck said:


> Actually, it does. Being in the military involves living in extremely close quarters with other men. sharing foxholes, poncho liners, showers, etcetera.
> 
> Most guys don't feel comfortable sharing a communal shower with a guy who is looking at them in a sexual way.
> 
> ...


Chuck -- You assume that a gay man would be attracted to every single man on the planet. That's like saying every straight man wants to bed every girl on the planet. What you're describing is vampish behavior, independent of sexual orientation. And I'd like to think vampish behavior is contrary to good order and discipline no matter which mix of genders are involved.

I knew gays and lesbians in the Corps. Not many. But provided they kept sex out of the workplace -- a standard that applies to straights as well -- I had no problem with them.

Gunner


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

EasyDay said:


> I guess my question/point to Bob was... why do some feel the need to announce their sexual orientation. I especially can't give a hoot about their preferences if I never know their preferences in the first place!


I think its because we heteros dont have to hide our sexuality,why do they have to hide theirs?

Booboo


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

mightybooboo said:


> I think its because we heteros dont have to hide our sexuality,why do they have to hide theirs?
> 
> Booboo


Booboo,
They don't have to hide it, but nor do they need to announce it.
When I walk into, then out of, a space, not one person knows my sexual orientation for sure. Why should we know theirs?

And we USUALLYdo... you know that's true.


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## Scabbard (Jun 8, 2006)

I have read the initial comment and the responces in re 'don't ask, don't tell'. I got a smile and a chuckle, hell I laughed outloud at a couple of them. I was a rifle company commander with the 8th Regiment of the First Cavalty Division Airmobile, in Viet Nam in 1970. I guess I have been as close to about 112 men (the number varies with circumstances)
as humanly possible. I truly cared for and loved each and every one of those men. Even the ones that couldn't stand me. Every moment I was awake, and many while asleep, I was looking for something, anything, to keep my men alive. I did not always succede. I held some of them while they cried and called for their mother and blew bubbles stained with blood through clinched teeth. Others just wanted to be held as they left their earthly shell. We weren't big on fox holes. Our AO was double canopy mostly, easy on the eyes but very dank. Digging made noise and uncovered a variety of permanent residents that were always unpleasent. We just didn't do it. So I never experienced the what if in a fox hole senario. We didn't bathe in the brush. But on the fire base we used Australian showers, a canvass bucket suspended from a tripod in the open afixed with a gravity flow shower head. We heated the water in various ways. My favorite was to pile powder bags, secured from the red legs, around a 155 canister filled with water and presto, hot water. My point is everyone saw everyone shower. Not to mention that everyone urinated into a 155 canister shoved into the berm. But I'm straying from the subject. I never once thought about or had reason to consider the sexual preference of any of my men. I didn't ask them and they didn't tell. Go figure. The anounced policy of 'don't as don't tell' was and is a political curveball, or maybe even better a football. Just throw it out there and see which way it bounces. It doesn't change anything and nothing has changed.


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## rwinsouthla (Oct 24, 2005)

bob clark said:


> as far as the showers , when i was in the army most of the time we showered in privet but when we only had the open showers it wasnt a problem. I was not out at that time so the other guys didnt feel bad, and i didnt look too long or anything that would have caused concern.



DO WHAT????????? I didn't look too long???? You guys make it too easy for us heteros. You broke a rule. I am SURE that SOMEWHERE it said you cannot look at another soldier in a sexual manner. 

Chuck said it earlier.....we are entitled to our opinions. Our opinion is that homesexuals have NO place in the military. The reasons, in my opinion again, is that they are not NATURAL (don't you think God would have allowed you to reproduce homosexually if he wanted to?) AND they are a distraction BECAUSE they are not natural. It isn't homophobia. It is because I am repulsed and disgusted by your choice of un-natural sexuality. 

Oh, and to answer the question about what exactly I meant by less than a full man? A homosexual is NOT, in my opinion, a full man. They are less than a full man. Check out the definition of MAN and it says nothing about "possibly homosexual" or "engages in changing sexuality depending on his mood". In my opinion, no homosexual is a complete man. They are missing something upstairs.


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## rwinsouthla (Oct 24, 2005)

One more thought.......

Why is it that gays are not satisfied with "don't ask, don't tell"? Wasn't that a victory for them when Bubba was in office? Now, it's not enough? 

Or are they still satisfied with it as "don't ask, don't tell"?


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

We discriminated against Blacks and women too.We are still fighting against women in the military,the 'fair' sex,blah blah blah.

Same thing,except one you can 'see'? :shrug: 

Your bringing in Christian Biblical values,thats the be all and end all on the matter,the Bible?
And the bible determines military policy,or US policy or morality?
Thats a can of worms on MANY levels.
That sounds like picking and chosing what parts of the bible apply and what dont?
Who makes that determination?

I still feel discrimination is wrong,thats the over riding consideration.I cant justify it if you can pass a physical and IQ test.Rest is discrimination,always wrong.

BooBoo


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

rwinsouthla said:


> One more thought.......
> 
> Why is it that gays are not satisfied with "don't ask, don't tell"? Wasn't that a victory for them when Bubba was in office? Now, it's not enough?
> 
> Or are they still satisfied with it as "don't ask, don't tell"?



i didnt concider it a victory at all, and no i am not satisfied with it .

there sould be no policy concerning ones sexuality at all. only how someone conducts them selves


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Should we get rid of "dont ask, dont tell"?

1- Given that sodomy is a felony in accordance with the UCMJ.

2- Given that sexual intercourse while on duty [or at sea] is also a crime in accordance with the UCMJ.

We used to pull security clearances and atuomatically assume that any queer was already acting out on his urges, but without proof of sodomy he was discharged.

I think that we should just carry-on smartly with the UCMJ. If someone is performing sodomy and they get caught then bust them. IF someone is performing sexual intercourse while on duty [or at sea] and they get caught then bust them.

Otherwise shut up.

I see no purpose in asking someone what their sexual preference is.

I see no purpose in anyone telling about their sexual preference, other than to be immature. they should just keep their mouth shut and be professional.

I have served with homosexuals. Both before the "dont ask, dont tell" policy and after this policy.

I really dont see it as a big issue.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

comfortablynumb said:


> ... I find it real hard to understand how a marine, or any man in a battle or a high stress situation, has time, or the luxury of worrying who is taking a too long look at their butt in the shower.
> 
> are they really this insecure? ...


Well you did say marine.


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## comfortablynumb (Nov 18, 2003)

deleted for being to graphic?

you gotta be kidding me.....

who's sensitive eyeballs did we offend this time?

maybe it just hit a few nerves.... awwwwww.


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## SweetSarah (May 8, 2006)

KY Guest said:


> Since I don't have a dog in this fight I just have a question that maybe someone can answer.
> 
> Does the Don't Ask Don't Tell cover the social outings of soldiers on their own time.


As a soldier, you don't have you're own time. And I don't mean you are always busy, I mean every second of your time belongs to Uncle Sam. You actually sign your life away for however many years your contract is. An example of this is getting an Article 15 when you get a sunburn for damaging government property. Once you sign on that dotted line, the military has every right to tell you what to eat, when to eat, how much you can sleep, where you will sleep, even what you can talk about (to a point.) It's all part of the deal. When we were stationed at Fort Bragg a few years back, soldiers were not even permitted to wear earings off post in their "off time." No matter if they were working or not, on base or not, they were AT ALL TIMES and United States Soldier and you must at all times represent the values and regulations of the Army, don't ask don't tell being one of them.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Many things that you might do on your 'off time' would reflect poorly on the military, and poorly on you when you get back.

The same arguement was used about peeing in a cup. The Supreme courts ruled and now we all pee in a cup every month tha twe are on active duty.

The UCMJ is a set of laws that are over you from your firs tenlistment until the time that you are discharged [and often for another six months beyond your discharge]. and in many cases [like in my case] the UCMJ is their law for life.

As a retiree, I can not walk away from the UCMJ. I still get their paycheck, ...


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## michiganfarmer (Oct 15, 2005)

moopups said:


> Note, in all the battle history of the armed forces combined, the MC has never 'lost the flag', (been overrun by enemy troops with any member surviving).


DAMN RIGHT!


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

comfortablynumb said:


> maybe it just hit a few nerves.... awwwwww.



that would be my guess


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## moopups (May 12, 2002)

Face it people, we are beating a dead horse here. This thread has drug itsself out to a useless level; the only changes I have seen made this lifetime is that homos have became more visable and vocal. This enlarges the problem, not reduceses it.

I am presently leaving this thread here in that it allows a place for this to be discussed without polluting any further space elsewhere.

I will admit that I did not read the deleted post, this got so boreing that there was just not enought interest on my part to follow it.

You didn't ask but I am going to tell, in my earlier years I was attracted to girls, later in life I found myself attracted to .... yes - women. Does that make me an offical bisexual?


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## Dubai Vol (Mar 22, 2006)

Not sure I have an opinion, but I feel like rambling on about this....

When I joined in '86 they still asked if you were gay. It was kind of funny: after asking once, and going on to other questions, the psychiatrist snapped: "Are you SURE you're not gay?"

I dunno, maybe I looked gay? Whatever. If I had been more clever I suppose I could have told him to ask my wife. :shrug: 

I consider myself very fortunate in that at a young age I worked for gay men at two different jobs. We're talking late '70s, so I think that probably wasn't common in the deep South. So I was lucky enough to learn that gays are just regular people.

After a few more years, and some more experience, I was rather proud that I could turn down passes from men as gracefully as I turned down passes from women. (Yes, ladies, men actually DO turn women down on rare occasion!)

So what are we left with? I'm very hetero, and lucky enough to have learned to be comfortable with other people's orientation. Even when a man comliments me on my looks, I just take it as a compliment. I remember using the phrase "can't touch this" with a grin....

Sadly, not everyone is as comfortable with the range of human experience. The people I am sad for are the ones who are where I was at age 17 when I didn't know anything about gays and feared them. But regardless, those people make up a large part of the population. That's just reality, and you have to live in reality, not the world as you wish it were.

After all that rambling, what do I think? If everyone had the good fortune to have my experience, gays in the military would not be an issue. Maybe one day that will be the case. But that day has not yet arrived. And I'm not sure that it will arrive by means of making the military an equal opportunity zone for gays. The learning has to start long before that, and the process will be difficult. Sorry, just being realistic here.

Anyone who has served in the military, I salute you.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Dubai Vol said:


> ... When I joined in '86 they still asked if you were gay. It was kind of funny: after asking once, and going on to other questions, the psychiatrist snapped: "Are you SURE you're not gay?"


The recruiter had you talking to a shrink?

Through out my entire career, I have never spoken with a shrink. [with the exception of as a foster-parent and dealing with therapists and shrinks that were seeing our foster-children].

Why would the recruiter have had you to be interviewed by a shrink?





> ... Anyone who has served in the military, I salute you.


Thank you.


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## Dubai Vol (Mar 22, 2006)

ET1 SS said:


> Why would the recruiter have had you to be interviewed by a shrink?


Nothing to do with the recruiter, the shrink was just one of the guys everyone got run by during the induction physical: walk like a duck, turn your head and cough, see the shrink in room 42. I'm just glad I didn't have to go sit on the group W bench with the father stabbers, mother rapers and all kind mean nasty horrible kind of guys.....  

With apologies to Arlo Guthrie.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

So long as you remember to add: "disturbing the peace" your fine.


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## moopups (May 12, 2002)

You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant ('ceptin Alice)...

If your under 50 this may seem strange, but then again what do old people know?

'Littering' was the first charge.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

moopups said:


> You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant ('ceptin Alice)...
> 
> If your under 50 this may seem strange, but then again what do old people know?
> 
> 'Littering' was the first charge.


Yes but everyone knows your not safe on the 'group W bench' until you admit to disturbing the peace.

Besides I dont want a pickle, I want to ride my motorckle!


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

moopups said:


> You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant ('ceptin Alice)...
> 
> If your under 50 this may seem strange, but then again what do old people know?
> 
> 'Littering' was the first charge.



who is Alice?


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

She runs the restaurant, near the house which used to be a church and still has the bell tower.


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## bob clark (Nov 3, 2005)

ET1 SS said:


> She runs the restaurant, near the house which used to be a church and still has the bell tower.



Oh, that Alice


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