# Reach out tool.



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Barnhardt had something interesting recently about shooting prarie dogs to get practice for the future. She's an advocate of long guns.

Barnhardt.biz - Commodity Brokerage

For those 400 yard plus shots what do you favor? I've got a couple of .30 calibers capable of reaching out. But I was thinking about a .22-250 for something with a flatter trajectory. Folks around here have used them successfully for longer range shots on deer.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Something like this:








Sendero 7 Mag
Or this:









Rem VLS 7mm/08

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/co...25090-whats-your-favorite-long-range-toy.html


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## defenestrate (Aug 23, 2005)

A .22-250 is fairly ideal for practicing taking out small game/targets at a pretty fair distance, without the kick or expense of some of the larger heavier rounds.

There are so many options out there, and even common cheap rifles like a 22LR can give almost anyone of any skill level some practice if you are patient and have a good clear range to shoot in.


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## wildcat6 (Apr 5, 2011)

22-250


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Does anybody make a hotdog 243 ? or 270 ?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Darren said:


> For those 400 yard plus shots what do you favor? I've got a couple of .30 calibers capable of reaching out. But I was thinking about a .22-250 for something with a flatter trajectory. Folks around here have used them successfully for longer range shots on deer.


30-06 
308
223

i don't see that large of a difference between the ballistics of 22-250 and 223 to make me think it is worth a separate rifle 

30-06 , 308 , and 223 are all used in 600 and 1000 yard competitions 

if your looking to reach out the 30-06 is still packing 1000+ foot pounds of energy at 400 yards , while the 22-250 is under 600

the trajectory of a 22-250 is great until between 200-300 yards the same as most anything else 

.....................................100..... 200.....300.....400.....500
22-250 64 gr power point___0____-2.2___-9.1__-22.4___-43
223 64 gr power point______0____-3.5___-13.4_-32.1___-59
30-06 150 gr power point___0____-3.6___-13.8_-32.4___-60.1


if you have to compensate for 9.1 or 13.8 inches of drop what is the difference sure 43 inches of drop at 500 yards is less , but if you already had to compensate for that what is the difference in compensating for 60 inches of drop , the heavier bullet will get you added stability in the wind ,and carry more energy to the target. 


22-250 is a great caliber , but for me it doesn't shine that far above it's more available cousin the 223 to make me think of it as a shtf rifle 

i think you would get more mileage for getting very good with 223 at longer distances , and maybe in a AR as a varmint setup with the 20 or 24 inch free floated barrel , but bolt is good also learning how to read and compensate for distance and wind would be a better education.

there is a reason the 30cal still has a place in the hands of US snipers for longer range work that can be done without he weight of the 50


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

That's how I grew practicing to shoot. Hilltop overlooking a prarie dog town and a 234 (Rem 788) with lots of ammo. OB and I would make a contest of it. Shoot until you missed and then it was the others turn. 250 to 400 yard shots was the normal.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Jim-mi said:


> Does anybody make a hotdog 243 ? or 270 ?


Remington makes Varmit guns in 243


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Remington makes Varmit guns in 243


Yes they do , i was at the local gun store last week , they had a Remington in 308 and 243 , it is a AR10 clone, 243 is a necked down 308

the other customer at the counter was saying how much he liked his Remington AR in 243


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

243 is very popular in ar platform 

kinda tough on barrels, as is the 22-250
400-600 yards with a rested rifle? why not a 223? easy on barrels, about 3000 to 5000 rounds per barrel.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

.308 for small caliber long distance or if a smaller caliber is wanted-a good 6.5-I'm getting to be a nut about this caliber-have 4 now-all 1000yd rifles...it's not whether a bullet of any particular caliber can go x amount of distance-it's whether it can have any terminal effect after going the distance.I just had basically given to me(old guy wanted a fellow nut to enjoy his rifle)a 7x.375(.375 H&H necked down to 7mm,custom Mauser action-super bull barrel)that he used on praire dogs at 800-1000yds.Virtually any caliber can be built to be accurate and terminal out to 600yds.


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## unioncreek (Jun 18, 2002)

I would use something more than a .22/223 caliber for anything over 150 to 200 yards, the muzzle energy just isn't there. My DIL's brother is in the army and they were told it's taking 2 to 3 hits to put someone down. 
I would use my .308, just it's the rifle I'm good with at long range and I know it has plenty of muzzle energy.

Bob


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> My DIL's brother is in the army and they were told it's *taking 2 to 3 hits* to put someone down.


Give them some good HOLLOWPOINTS and that would change


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

a Marine killed at Lejune range @600 yards by a 223. (he had walked out of cover from the target pitts. one shot dead as a door nail. 

I hear all the time that 120 volts will not kill a person,,,,more people are killed by 120 volts in the USA than any other voltage.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> a Marine killed at Lejune range @600 yards by a 223


Shot PLACEMENT is everything.
In actual combat, many are wearing body armor or at least heavy clothing that can absorb a lot of energy.

Also, "being killed" isn't the same as being STOPPED *immediately.*
You could die HOURS after being shot, and still keep fighting. 

*Any firearm* can be "deadly" at long range.
But not all are "effective" at long range when it comes to *QUICK* kills


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

Darren, I agree, if your parrie dogs wear body armor you may need more that 223.

sorry, could not help myself.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

the reason the USA uses 5.56 is because we plan to fight ourselves. an injured troop also takes out as many people as it takes to evacuate him to include helicopters & trucks. unfortunately most of the people we fight don't respond to casualties the same way we do.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

. .ace a. . . the next time you hear that 120v will not kill . . . Please make a point of very loudly laughing in that person's face.
And then loudly let that person know how wrong they are.......

Using the word "placement" whats a 22 going to do at 4-500 yards......??
I don't want to find out the hard way...........


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

AmericanMercenary

Some good points here about LR shooting and ammo.Also a great site,like western rifle shooters and lizard farmer...


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## unioncreek (Jun 18, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Give them some good HOLLOWPOINTS and that would change


Bearfootfarm,

So true. They choose the 5.56 because they are quired to carry a set amount of ammo.

Bob


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the original m16 used a 1:12 or even 1:14 barrel to make the projectile conditionally stable 

it had ups and downs , it wouldn't stabilize a heavy bullet , but it would stabilize a 55gr bullet , but only till it entered the target then it would tumble making an awful mess 

the current barrels have a 1:7 1:8 or 1:9 twist to stabilize even over stabilize if you can call it that


and yes so that they could carry a hole bunch of ammo not many rifle calibers a man can easily carry 300 rounds or more


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

ok...is it sport or not. if not the .50 bmg bullet has good down range energy, its an anti-equipment round.

if sport, learn NPA, trigger control, breath control and pause, focus (get in the bubble) use a 77 to 82 grain 223 with about 24 grains RL-15 or Varget or such. chro your rounds to find speed, print range charts for drop and windage correction. medium to heavy free floated barrel, 1to7.7 no more than 1in8, tuned trigger. if scoped (for old folks and such,joking, kinda) get a good one (scope cost = or a little greater than rifle cost), parallax adjustable, get good/consistent cheek weld, get a good spotting scope, learn to read mirage. and have a bunch of fun and pride in your craft. you're good to go to 450-475 yards, after a few hundred rounds, less with the aide of a good wind age coach, 500 to maybe 550 yards (with a good barrel/reload combination)


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> if scoped (for old folks and such,joking, kinda)


Laugh *now* while you're still young, and buy some good scopes *now* for when YOU get "old" 

It will come sooner than you think


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Laugh *now* while you're still young, and buy some good scopes *now* for when YOU get "old"
> 
> It will come sooner than you think


I,ve been there for a decade, i just coach (complain about what others do wrong) now. "When i was you age we did that shot using a mirror"


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

unioncreek said:


> Bearfootfarm,
> 
> So true. They choose the 5.56 because they are quired to carry a set amount of ammo.
> 
> Bob


the 5.56 was chosen because it was less lethal than the 7.62 with the intent of overburdening the enemy logistic system w/ casualties that need treatment and thus reducing the amount of personell & equipment available to fight with. in the American military every injured person takes 4 other personnel out of the fight to evacuate them, we ASSUME everyone else will work the same way.
the additional ammo comes later when someone realizes the new weapon & ammo weigh less than the old. for example when the M-16 was first adopted only 20 round magazines were available so they carried the exact same number of rounds as when they used the M-14. it wasn't until later that some genius decided they could carry a few extra boxes. right now the STANDARD combat load is 180 rounds in 6 30 round mags plus 1 extra box of 20 (most will voluntarily carry an extra magazine in order to put all 200 issued rounds in a magazine). grenadiers typically get 6 or 12 HEDP rounds plus what ever illumination & smoke rounds that may be issued. SAW gunners typically carry 600 rounds and the A-gunner 400 (some units SOP will have everyone in the fire team carry a 200 rd drum in addition to the standard gunner/a-gunner load out)


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

can you imagine the bravery of a solder standing in line, taking a patch load from a cartridge box, standing tall in the hell of a field, ramming it home. Yeah,,,,,, bring on the 30 round mag.


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## LogicAndReason (Jun 10, 2012)

I prefer .300 Winchester Magnum at the least to .338 Lapua Magnum for general use long range effective (not paper punching) use.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Hereâs my âsolutionsâ:

REM 700 in .300WIN with Luepold 4.5-14X:










REM 700 XCR âTacticalâ in .223 with Luepold 6.5-20X MK4 Illuminated TMR Reticle:










I probably shoot the little .223 10 times as much as any centerfire rifles I own (16) simply because; itâs cheaper to load for. With 69 grain SMKs at just shy of 3000 FPS it holds well out to 500 yards even in wind. The 20â heavy fluted barrel doesnât add too much weight, but it still would not be my choice to lug around all day. 

IF youâre concerned about the rifleâs cost, Iâd definitely shy away from anything larger than a .308. Even with reloading the bigger cartridges are expensive as they burn through quite a bit more powder, my .308 load burns almost twice as much as my .223 and youâll only get about 100 rounds of .300Win from a pound of powder compared to 280 of .223.

With a modern bolt action, decent scope, and known distances, LR shooting is all about wind, and that takes practice. Generally, the less expensive the ammo, the more practice youâll be able to get in.

Funny thing, part of my job is interviewing troops returning from theater, and I donât hear too many complaints about the 5.56 not being effective, or at least not anywhere near the amount I read about on the internet would lean me to believe. Of all the issues weâre currently working on or worked from theater, thatâs not one that has ever come up.

Chuck


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## unioncreek (Jun 18, 2002)

My DIL's brother said he heard some of the higher ups at Fort Drum discussing how many rounds to was taking to put someone down. He also said that for every kill it was averaging 2500 rounds.

Bob


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

unioncreek said:


> My DIL's brother said he heard some of the higher ups at Fort Drum discussing how many rounds to was taking to put someone down. He also said that for every kill it was averaging 2500 rounds.
> 
> Bob


Guess someones learning how to shoot-In Vietnam,DOD said approx 52,000rds(.50 and under)per enemy KIA


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

ever heard of the mad minute?


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

ace admirer said:


> ever heard of the mad minute?


Ever hear of the "Drake shoot"?


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

zant said:


> Ever hear of the "Drake shoot"?


right. how about all the millions of rounds from puff, are they in the round count, it is a meaningless number as far as rifle work go.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Yeah,minis fire a 7.62x51 so they would be included......The Drake Shoot involved either after night lagering or getting ambushed-fire 2 shots into the bottom of every likely place the enemy would use for cover...or if you're the USArmy with tons of ammo-do what you said-Mad Minute-everyone lights up the area around them....Most people in combat situation-DON'T AIM-they spray and pray...which is why recon groups that practice their marksmanship and tactics accounted for more enemy on a per unit basis.


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## Silvercreek Farmer (Oct 13, 2005)

Would love to go long, but never had a chance to shoot over 200 yards. At that range I don't have any trouble keeping all the shots in the black with an open sighted M1 Garand. My father shot expert in the Marines and says he could do the same with a open sighted M14 at 500 yards. I've got a Weatherby 30-06 that could probably get it done, but I would like a .223 varmint rifle (probably a Savage) for the cost reasons mentioned previously, if I ever get to a point where I would get to use it enough.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

who makes the single shot, break action rifles? used to be new england fire arms and harrison and richardson? the handy rifles? i've got several but haven't seen them in about two decades. very accurate, fairly cheap (back then), great little rifles to encourage one shot placement.


the Garand pronounced garr and, not ga rand (his grandson was at nationals last year) has alot against it as a target rifle, although some can make it shoot at 500 and even 600 yards, but it takes a bunch of tuning, most of which makes it illegal in the service rifle matches. the m14 (basically the same action in a much better stock) will perform past 600 yards with tuning and yearly retuning. still around as the improved m21 

the 308 bullet (30-06 same) and the heavy 223 (80-90 grain) bullets have practically the same wind drift numbers. (i.m sure this will cause arguments, but look at the numbers, those of you that have limited experience at 600, 800 and 1000 yard ranges)
not saying the down range energy is the same, just the down range trajectory numbers as far as wind drift and accuracy goes. 
talking cartridges and rifles is like talking religion. My son shot with an old Marine at Perry this year that said "the 30-06 is the solution for all problems",,no one put up an argument, no one dared. 

anyway, what a great website,,,fun fun.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Ace
having been a PMI in the Marine Corps, i can assure you MOST shooters will never maximized the inherent accuracy & range potential of any of those rounds (even with a scope). in 11 years i shot 5 times for qual all expert & i feel like even I can't fully utilize the accuracy & range potential in most modern rifles.
the Harrington & Richardsons & NEF rifles are still being made (even switch barrel versions). also Rossi of brazil makes a descent cheaper single shot.
since MOST combat takes place at ranges under 100 yards the garand & the 06 round have certain benefits the 5.56 never will, like penetration of cover w/ hard ball ammo & killing sized bullets. but the high velocity, flat trajectory & low recoil of the 5.56 offset those benefits by permitting even small shooters, people ignorant of proper sight adjustment & people w/ mediocre ranging skills to accurately engage targets out to 300M.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Ace,you're right about that darn windI ended up putting wind flags every 100yds and still have problems.Nephew has been teaching me how to read wind at each interval and where to compensate for drift.Heck with it,I'll trade for a .416 Barret and power through it


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

ZANT, have you tried a good spotting scope and reading mirage for more sensitive information than wind flags can indicate?

so as a coach, I have all the ranges we shoot at on internet weather pages. The night before i look up wind direction and speed on the internet. comunicate this to the shooters, they make rought sight (we only shoot iron, no glass) notes on how many moa to shift their sights. i also plug temp, humidity and elevation data into balistic software for that effect on bullets/speed we use. Tthe day of the match at the range, i measure wind direction, speed, consisity and any clyric pattern if there seems to be one. If you have a history of range (the home town advantage) , like the trees cause a wind tunnel effect on targets 1-13 on the left, a vortex effect on 13 -21 and normal effect on the 22 to 75 stuff like that, you communicate to the newer shooters. anyway look at wind flags and see what they are telling you. then each shooter gets on the spotting scope and focuses in on marige at different distances (still argumental on which is the most affected distance) to see what it is trying to tell you. Some shooters try to wait and shoot the same conditions (mirage pattern), takes nerves of steel, others try to compensate for changes by making windage corrections to sights or holding off during rapid fire. I love the science or art of it. anyway the club that leases the national guard range used at butner nc gives a wooden token to the shooters that makes a first shot, x shot (dead center) at 600 yards (considered mid-range or 1000 yard considered long range). you have to have your stuff together to get one,,,,or be very, very, very lucky. not bragging, cause you see the planning, work and forethought that goes in the process, but my 16 year old son and 13 year old ddaughter have collected 5 this year. and yes, skill to pull off the shot after all the scientific and art (swag) has been inputed into the sight. I know i need to shut up....but man...i love this stuff.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Yes use spotting scope....but..after 3 days with my nephew(retired sniper/now instructor)I asked for professional criticism...He said-"you are a good shooter but will never be great-you drink coffee and smoke,besides your shooting is good enough for anything you will have to do".......so I'll practice x3 BUT,I ain't giving up coffee and butts


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