# Supremely defensible !



## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Well, it turned into a 'flack-fest' when I posted this over at SingleTree, so I'll tweak it a little. Danned people read so much they just skim & jump to the most ridiculous conclusions ?!

I am falling in love w/the idea of a 100+ acre hardwood lot that has about 40 acres at top of the hill it's all on - a perfect place for a retreat/farm (yes, a bit of a doomer). Price is good - they will owner-finance. Tax not bad.

I have been looking off & on for partners for several owned properties I have here in safe corner of (one of ) safest states (ME), but nothing is really ready for farming (other than big garden, rabbits & chickens), really need to find female partner to make solid base first.
I have studied what is needed for a long time, have good ideas & know pretty much what to do. If it's my land I will pretty much call the shots,* but that is not to say that I don't make mistakes, or that I'm always right. Will propose, listen, then decide.*

This 'calling the shots' part got me in a poop-fest. I mean that if you know more than me on a subject, then you can be in charge of that. Like planting apple trees, or raising pigs/goats, etc., or training steers to pull, BUT a long time ago I once owned half of an old decommissioned brick Synogogue in Portlandia, ME that was to be rehabbed into sort of communal housing for a few folks I was associated with at that time. Holy Cow ! They all went in there in different directions & began to rip up everything, you know, w/no concerted plan !!?? It was awfull !
Anyway, I bailed, & now that land is a huge million $ parking lot in the middle of the city (or last I knew).
I learned that with a group of people trying to do something together, then 1 to 3 people prolly need to be driving the bus, not have a big unwieldy democracy ?! Just lay out a rough plan in the beginning & if you don't like it, then go find another place & plan that you like better.
When the poop hits the paddle somebody, or a couple somebodies (maybe a man & woman) have to be guiding the vision of a group effort at a retreat farm, don't you think ?

If I scrimp & save, and locate a defensible place big enough to support enough people to defend it, go into debt to buy it, and I do have a fairly clear vision of how things should work, then I am not going to be interested in having my partners all arguing ad-infinitum about how every danned thing will be done - would you ? 

As to partners - what I want is long-term, hopefully friends for life. If I depend on good partners I must treat them well, make sure they don't feel too thwarted. If we are not all happy together, then after the worst times perhaps there will be a lot of places & opportunities for folks who want to move on.

Land I'm looking at is just down out of these mtns. for a little longer growing season - has firewood for life for plenty of people & plenty to sell - growing well after softwood cut several years ago. Maple for sugar too. Covered w/raspberries & blackberries to feast on ! A small stream or 2 to dig out a fish pond & for hydro power. A huge fertile hayfield across the road & then a river w/brown trout in it.
Has nice diagonal drive up the bank off 2 lane blacktop w/power & a huge place where DOT dumped & levelled 40 thousand yards of fill from road project, so great, great place to get started, a lay-down yard, a place to build inititially (maybe temporary housing), garage/workshop/storage lockup. Gate the road at bottom of drive.

These many feet of extra depth of gravel will go to take the best skidder trail & change it into a road up to the more level, farmable land at the top of the hill.

Most existing farms are right on a road & not very defensible at all.

Along the state road by the land is a high bank, so no one can see anything on the land from the road, also good chance for heavy duty fencing, and warning devices there so baddy people can't get up on the land easily.
Very, very defensible, all in all. Surrounded by other huge wooded properties.

If our money will become cripplingly inflated, then why not invest in 100 acres of firewood that will always be in demand here & go up in value ?

I would love to harvest this w/a couple of draft ponies or oxen & make a farm at the top of the land w/my excavator & ponies/pigs/goats. Build an earth-sheltered house or 2 (easily used for fallout sheltering too !).

No zoning in this township - last census says 410 residents.- 15 mi. from a bigger (only 4000+ plus) town w/state college, ag stores & nice farmer's market - a pretty 'greeny/hippy' town which also has all Walmarts, KFC/TacoBell/VIP auto, radio shack, etc. etc. & good hospital - Tractor Supply Co. - a very helpfull county extension service for all ag questions.
And hardly any crime - ME rated one of safest states, and buffered by other safest states !
Not too far from little resort village where I now live to get odds & ends of work - still have all construction skills, tools & equipment. An old non-roadable dump truck & something to load it will be needed to transport gravel too , so if anyone had $ to invest in this ? It is possible that I'd consider selling a portion of this to partners too, it is big enough - but we've really got to be like-minded ? Get a 2nd hand travel trailer to get started with. People sell them cheap now, and they are set up w/12 volt lights,fridges, or can run off propane too . I have an idea about putting one in a solar garage w/living space & space for a woodstove for winter, then later you have a nice garage/barn/workshop - and trailer can be re-purposed.

I have about 4-5 sources of $ each month, so will have time to work the land & build stuff/farm. One monthly check will pay mortgage on land, then I get a balloon pmnt. in 3 yrs. to pay balloon on land so no debt again.
Well, gone on long enough - anyone interested ?

And you know, if you are just a small-minded hater w/nothing but crap to dump on this thread because of your snap assumptions, please just keep it bottled up inside yourself ? What ever happened to 'the benefit of the doubt' in our culture/society ? Why assume somebody is stupid & their ideas are all messed up ??


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I'm going to have to read this a few times to take it all in.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

AngieM2 said:


> I'm going to have to read this a few times to take it all in.


I know, it's long.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Its not just long Rick - its that its rambling rant without any breaks for paragraphs. I tried to read it but kept getting lost about half way through it.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Okay - I just added some spacing so it is easier to read.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Very nice --but I am NOT moving ever again. I even have my own graveyard I am staying put. But nice and I think I see where you are comming from.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Okay - I've read it a few times, and I think I get your vision.

I think to get it done you're going to have to have the land, and then as you find the right people extend your hand and land offer. But, I think there has to be some more than just a place to live, under your ultimate say so, for others that are of the mind set to do this, would want to do it with you.

I am thinking of "Deep Winter" and how the neighborhood develops. Have you read that book? I think in "Shattered" is where the neighborhood group near the "hero family" starts to be fleshed out and how the criteria was developed. I think that reading that and considering it, may be of benefit in establishing something philosophically similar on the land you are talking about.

As for someone such as myself, where I MIGHT be interested it's too far from where I am, and family is here and I'm not sure how I'd acclimate to Maine and it's growing seasons and needed winter clothing. (I might do very well as I lived in the UP of Michigan for 18 months long ago, and loved it).

Also, the strong individuals have to have some reason to want to do this with you, and have some reason to respect you as leader and not just because you own the land. That is something that needs some work, from this first posting.

Did I read over that a person going in would have a title to their land or a life time lease for their family and direct descendents? I like the part where you are suggesting some may buy land near this parcel you like and being like minded. Almost like settling an old west town. 

I have to think some more on this. Your concept is interesting, but it would take a very special group to pull it off.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

I believe your best bet would be to find people you already know and trust. It's kind of hard for people that are independent, like those here, to just up and move to someone else's land when they don't know that person personally.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

AngieM2 said:


> Okay - I've read it a few times, and I think I get your vision.
> 
> *Did I read over that a person going in would have a title to their land or a life time lease for their family and direct descendents? I like the part where you are suggesting some may buy land near this parcel you like and being like minded. Almost like settling an old west town.*
> 
> ...


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Sonshine said:


> I believe your best bet would be to find people you already know and trust. It's kind of hard for people that are independent, like those here, to just up and move to someone else's land when they don't know that person personally.


Well, thanks, but easier said than done . One of the beauty parts of this area is that there aren't all that many people, so hard to choose partners from the few local folks I already know - thus my post in this huge survivalist/prep forum.
I have been trying to interest my family for some time, but it only goes as far as getting together to shoot.


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## MichaelK! (Oct 22, 2010)

From what I read it's my understanding that what you've found is the dream property you want but can't afford, so you want partners to fork up the cash but let you make all decisions. Is that about right?

My recommendation is to buy within your means and then you'll have the absolute right to make decisions as the sole owner. I wouldn't expect others to foot the bill for "my vision"!


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Rick - 

come back and with paragraph breaks tell us what you envision to be the specific selling points for someone to do this with you.

And - it does seem that you need finances from them to be part of this amazing land find.

So - what is to their advantage to do this? (and even if in the opening post, clarify a little better and more directly)


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## goatlady (May 31, 2002)

what is to their advantage to do this?

Absolutely a question that needs to be answered. It would also help LOTS to know that you already have a DETAILED plan of development and that you know how many "partners" would be needed to aid in this development AND what specific skills/contributions are you seeking? What specific monetary obligations are you envisioning for these "Partners?" For how long? What specifically do these "partners" recoup/gain from their investments of time and $$ when the property is paid off? What happens if after 5 years or so a partner wants to move on? LOTS of questions to be addressed adequately before you can expect any serious responses to your present offer which as it stands now is way too open ended and vague. Approach this venture just like you would be approaching a bank for a business loan - have your plan all worked out allowing for some variables, but have a definite, specific plan of development so folks have a way to get necessary to them information.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

MichaelK! said:


> From what I read it's my understanding that what you've found is the dream property you want but can't afford, so you want partners to fork up the cash but let you make all decisions. Is that about right?
> 
> My recommendation is to buy within your means and then you'll have the absolute right to make decisions as the sole owner. I wouldn't expect others to foot the bill for "my vision"!


Wrong ! I can afford it - it isn't expensive.
The idea is that a person alone can't be on guard all the time.
You are one of the people who skim an OP.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

AngieM2 said:


> Rick -
> 
> come back and with paragraph breaks tell us what you envision to be the specific selling points for someone to do this with you.
> 
> ...


I gave the selling points if somebody can hold a post that long all in their head .
I do NOT need finances, but am willing to have contributing partners - they actually just dropped the price. The OP was assuming I would foot the whole bill. If ya help buy then ya get more 'say'.
I said that some sort of loader and old dump truck would be necessary to build the road needed to the more level land on the top if somebody wanted to chip in.
I'm getting tired of the bashing by folks who don't trouble to digest the post. (Not necessarily you Ang.)


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

goatlady said:


> what is to their advantage to do this?
> 
> Absolutely a question that needs to be answered. It would also help LOTS to know that you already have a DETAILED plan of development and that you know how many "partners" would be needed to aid in this development AND what specific skills/contributions are you seeking? What specific monetary obligations are you envisioning for these "Partners?" For how long? What specifically do these "partners" recoup/gain from their investments of time and $$ when the property is paid off? What happens if after 5 years or so a partner wants to move on? LOTS of questions to be addressed adequately before you can expect any serious responses to your present offer which as it stands now is way too open ended and vague. Approach this venture just like you would be approaching a bank for a business loan - have your plan all worked out allowing for some variables, but have a definite, specific plan of development so folks have a way to get necessary to them information.


LOL, easy for you to say - I was hoping for suggestions, instead of all the critisisms - the post was too long for most folks as it was !


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

It is an interesting concept. Have you thought of setting it up as a mutual assistance group?


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

Balloon payments make me queasy!! Cause my security gland to throb.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

You have an awesome idea Rick. We have considered Maine for so long, but the one thing that has stopped us every time is the distance from my family. Well, the distance from everywhere for that matter. It seems you would have to be truly fine with hermitization from the rest of the country. It would take an eternity to get anywhere.
We just bought a foreclosed farm in western Wisconsin. Else we would seriously consider your offer. 

I assume its raw land? No buildings or nothing? No well, etc..?


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## goatlady (May 31, 2002)

NOT critisizing at all, Rick, just asking questions. I would not presume to volunteer suggestions on how you should handle your dream setup this early in the "game." If you are going to be THE basic final say on any development, I personaly would want to know your capabilities and detailed plans and expectations before committing myself and my funds. Written contracts are a good protection for all parties involved and sould show clearly with no misunderstanding what is expected, desired, and necessary. Only you know your aims and final goals and how you figure on getting there eventually. To build a "community" clear communication and understanding are an absolute necessity. The underlying meanings of what you say can be quite different than my interpretation of those same statements and those misinterpretations can be killers in any situation. Your example of your experience in buying that property in town with a group and everybody having a different idea of what to do and then you stating "have a rough plan and go from there" are in contradiction. If there IS no concrete plan set down and agreed upon at the beginning, any "rough" plan will NOT get the goals met when trying to work with a group of individuals. That IS my suggestion - work up a detailed plan that you can send to truely interested folks as they contact you.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Hey Rick---- what do you know about the 5000 acre piece in Dallas? I heard a rumor that it was FS and butts the training base?

Not trying to be negative but I think Winter and blackfly/mosquito season would do most "tough" enough folks in...at least in Alaska you have the PF check come in just as winter hits....in Maine you either have to be rich to afford the taxes/insurance or dirt floor poor and collecting welfare...us folks in between work like dogs just to pay the bills.

With the animals up there you'd have to secure them from the coyotes...many old timers up that way gave up the battle to try to keep livestock up there...because of predators....and you can't just kill a moose or a few deer for winter meat....its a lottery for moose...my husband hasnt been picked in 30 yrs....and deer is bucks only and may even be closed because of a few bad winters...the turkeys down here are hurting the amount of forage available too in add'n to coyotes. Bear hunting is decent but I don't like bear meat...and 1 bear only....fishing is okay but also limits....
It's beautiful country though and nice people for the most part....some wackos but fairly spread out.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

If the property were something you could split up and sell portions to like minded people I think you would get more takers. Most homesteading/prepping types aren't real fond of having a landlord or home owners association dictating to them. 

The books Deep Winter & Shattered that Angie mentioned do talk about setting up neighborhoods of like minded individuals and its obvious that the author gave the topic some deep thought. If you haven't read them you can pick up PDF copies from lulu.com for $5 or the whole Trilogy directly from the author for $80. Deep Winter


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

rickfrosty said:


> LOL, easy for you to say - I was hoping for suggestions, instead of all the critisisms - the post was too long for most folks as it was !


Don't think you're going to get many interested in what you're proposing if you're going to insult their intelligence. :huh:


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> You have an awesome idea Rick. We have considered Maine for so long, but the one thing that has stopped us every time is the distance from my family. Well, the distance from everywhere for that matter. It seems you would have to be truly fine with hermitization from the rest of the country. It would take an eternity to get anywhere.
> We just bought a foreclosed farm in western Wisconsin. Else we would seriously consider your offer.
> 
> I assume its raw land? No buildings or nothing? No well, etc..?


Actually, Maine isn't that large of a state, so you really wouldn't have to became a hermit and doesn't take all that long to get other places.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

It doesn't pay to travel in the winter and this location is full of moose in the road during bug season and the rut in Oct....I think Rick can attest to the moose accident danger from personal experience...its mountain roads too-- winding and steep...I'm about 2hrs SE of where Rick is...our cabin is up there...2hrs up hill it seems when driving! and flying down coming home...
It may not be as large as other states but if you went out hunting on the large tracts of paper company land you'd be overwhelmed at the thickness of the growth in some spots...overcome by bugs in others....and the blueberries and raspberries and ants and bears in another...Alaska is much more "open" in comparison...


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

mpillow said:


> It doesn't pay to travel in the winter and this location is full of moose in the road during bug season and the rut in Oct....I think Rick can attest to the moose accident danger from personal experience...its mountain roads too-- winding and steep...I'm about 2hrs SE of where Rick is...our cabin is up there...2hrs up hill it seems when driving! and flying down coming home...
> It may not be as large as other states but if you went out hunting on the large tracts of paper company land you'd be overwhelmed at the thickness of the growth in some spots...overcome by bugs in others....and the blueberries and raspberries and ants and bears in another...Alaska is much more "open" in comparison...


I use to live in Portsmouth, NH and spent some time in Maine. It's a beautiful area and I do understand how rough the winters can be, but stand by what I said about not having to live like a hermit up there.  Got a friend who lives in northern Maine. I love it when she sends me pics of the moose looking in her kitchen window when she's doing dishes.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Sonshine said:


> Actually, Maine isn't that large of a state, so you really wouldn't have to became a hermit and doesn't take all that long to get other places.


A two day one-way drive to get back to the midwest is plenty too long for me.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

coolrunnin said:


> It is an interesting concept. Have you thought of setting it up as a mutual assistance group?


How would that work ?


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Sonshine said:


> Don't think you're going to get many interested in what you're proposing if you're going to insult their intelligence. :huh:


Aw, mostly I have gotten flack on this post - let me have some fun LOL!!


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

bourbonred said:


> Balloon payments make me queasy!! Cause my security gland to throb.


No, no balloon payment in owner finance on this land - BUT I recently sold something & there IS a balloon payment written into that in 3 yrs,. 
I was saying I could pay off land with that, but if that didn't happen I would still be able to continue paying off land .
Pretty sure price of land could be negotiated down to as low as $60k and it would be low interest, or I wouldn't do it.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> You have an awesome idea Rick. We have considered Maine for so long, but the one thing that has stopped us every time is the distance from my family. Well, the distance from everywhere for that matter. It seems you would have to be truly fine with hermitization from the rest of the country. It would take an eternity to get anywhere.
> We just bought a foreclosed farm in western Wisconsin. Else we would seriously consider your offer.
> 
> *I assume its raw land? No buildings or nothing? No well, etc*..?


Thank you for writing, good luck w/your farm. Thing about being isolated in ME is here it is one of the safest, if not the safest state & buffered by 2 other safest states from all the crime & mayhem in what will be an even more violent country .

Yes, raw land & not for the faint-hearted, thus so defensible . I will dig a well at the top where the more level land is w/my excavator - I have dug many, as well as building 10 septic systems. Above said level 40 acres or so is another rise, so no question there will be water available for a shallow wel.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

goatlady said:


> NOT critisizing at all, Rick, just asking questions. I would not presume to volunteer suggestions on how you should handle your dream setup this early in the "game." If you are going to be THE basic final say on any development, I personaly would want to know your capabilities and detailed plans and expectations before committing myself and my funds. Written contracts are a good protection for all parties involved and sould show clearly with no misunderstanding what is expected, desired, and necessary. Only you know your aims and final goals and how you figure on getting there eventually. To build a "community" clear communication and understanding are an absolute necessity. The underlying meanings of what you say can be quite different than my interpretation of those same statements and those misinterpretations can be killers in any situation. Your example of your experience in buying that property in town with a group and everybody having a different idea of what to do and then you stating "have a rough plan and go from there" are in contradiction. If there IS no concrete plan set down and agreed upon at the beginning, any "rough" plan will NOT get the goals met when trying to work with a group of individuals. That IS my suggestion - work up a detailed plan that you can send to truely interested folks as they contact you.


Don't really disagree w/any of this, but a more detailed plan is a bit down the road & haven't heard from any "truly interested folks " as yet . I do know how to develop the land & have done a development of my own before on 26 acres of totally wooded land here. Built 5 houses there - sold 4 . (Still own 20 or so acres there for back-up farm-retreat.)
I just know the country is in a lot more trouble than many realise & there is going to be a hard time coming. Many will not have prepared & will group to take from those of us who have & I can't imagine a place more set up to defend than this one. Houses could have closest property fences no closer than 1000 feet . And the 2-lane blacktop road 1600 ft. down the hill w/the narrow driveway the only way up through the snow or the blackberry bushes - have you ever tried to push through blackberry brambles ? land surrounded by other huge wooded parcels - NNN (no near neighbors).
I am trying to decide whether to buy this or not at this point. It would be a wonderful way to turn my hard-earned funny-money into something tangible, even if I didn't build the farm .
100+ acres of hardwood firewood (some is burly maple), sugar maple for a commercial syrup venture, covered w/raspberries & blackberries, partridge, turkey, deer, moose, etc. - haven't even checked for mushrooms & the 2000 ft roadfrontage is a good place to offer products directly to passers-by if the partners thought this was safe to do. 
Maybe a metal rack to display 1/4 or 1/3 cord of good firewood, or a sign offering 'right-rate' carpentry/painting/brush-hogging/whatever services ??


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

mpillow said:


> Hey Rick---- what do you know about the 5000 acre piece in Dallas? I heard a rumor that it was FS and butts the training base?
> *Yes, that much Brochu land is for sale (for BIG bucks) & it either abuts the Navy Survival Base or comes near there. They were able to sell another large parcel lately, consequently their price is pricey.*
> 
> Not trying to be negative but I think Winter and blackfly/mosquito season would do most "tough" enough folks in...at least in Alaska you have the PF check come in just as winter hits....in Maine you either have to be rich to afford the taxes/insurance or dirt floor poor and collecting welfare...us folks in between work like dogs just to pay the bills.
> ...


*What wackos - you mean like your buddy Cochise ?, LOL (just plaging ya)and what lottery - if the poop hits the paddle all that changes, no ?
Also Indians ate dog right, so Coyotes are dogs aren't they - maybe a bit more stringy, but like I say in full depression mode beggars can't be choosers !?*


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Wags said:


> If the property were something you could split up and sell portions to like minded people I think you would get more takers. Most homesteading/prepping types aren't real fond of having a landlord or home owners association dictating to them.
> 
> The books Deep Winter & Shattered that Angie mentioned do talk about setting up neighborhoods of like minded individuals and its obvious that the author gave the topic some deep thought. If you haven't read them you can pick up PDF copies from lulu.com for $5 or the whole Trilogy directly from the author for $80. Deep Winter




Thanks, but splitting up property is heavily regulated/expensive in most places, it is called subdivision. I might be willing to consider selling some, as I have said, but only if to really like-minded folks .
Don't want to sell to somebody who becomes an enemy, or is just so sloppy/lazy as to become a liability to me & mine, or who ends up selling to somebody else. 
If I sort of hold the reins on this project I can make it a great place that a few good partners would enjoy and hopefully we'd all get through the hard rain that's coming ?


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

I've always found that if I go ahead and do something the way I want, if people like what I'm doing they'll ask & follow along. 

In the mean time, dogs are good for guarding as that appears to be an important point for you.

Here in AZ you can divide your property 3 times without it coming under subdivision rules.


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## goatlady (May 31, 2002)

Rick, what you are so vaguely proposing is a WHOLE lot different than "developing" 5 approximately 1 acres lots into a subdivision for resale. Truely interested people will email you and basically say "tell me more!" I'm asking "tell me more." What exactly are you looking for me to contribute - time, dollars, physical help, what? I'm not so much interested in the physical aspects of building septics and drilling wells and building buildings, I want to know what is the benefit to me to move there and "participate" in your dream/vision? Will I have to buy into a business partnership? If I propose a small setup with goats to benefit the "community, who will fund this venture? Who pays for the animals and the barn and the ongoing necessities in return for daily milk and cheese? Will the time and expertise I contribute be counted towards ???? or just taken for granted that I will do this forever? If you retain title to the land that also means you in reality own whatever I build on that land - that does not appeal to me in the least. What guarantee would I have that down the road you, as the land owner, would not give me notice to leave on the premise that I was trespassing on your property? will the property taxes be prorated? You MUST consider the legalities involved, as long as the country holds together. You are looking for seriously interested people, that requires you get serious also and have your responses ready for inquiries. These are the kinds of questions a serious committed homesteader is going to ask or should ask and expect sound answers to. You are basically asking for people to move lock, stock, and barrel with everything they own to a potentially unknown area, to live with potentially unkown others, in a basically vague and open situation, trusting that the dream in your head will work and is what they are dreaming also. Ain't gonna happen, dude. I am in a position to do that, but no way, Jose, will I commit without a firm plan for my future. So that leave me out, I guess which is too bad cause I could bring a ton of experience and knowledge to a project like that. s


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Okay Rick, I've read the whole thing (kind of rough reading which I think why people are misunderstanding), along with other's comments and your response to their comments. You're not a real friendly guy nor take critism well there, do you? LOL! 
:rotfl:

What is troubling to me is that it seems like you don't want to be mayor of your community; you want to be 'king'. All because you believe you know more than the average Joe because you've been 'studing' on how to do all of this for so long and you know best.

I'm an older and I can tell you from a whole lifetime of experiences that all the studying in the world doesn't do a person a whole lot of good until they actually do it and find out the practical applications don't match what you've studied for so long. Life, nature, finances and luck just hardly ever go as planned; let alone faith in another human being to lead another person's destiny.

Now I know you said you are willing to listen to other investers and consider their suggestions; however, you're not even able to deal with people's comments who aren't even involved in the project that you don't agree with. It would be a hard sell to imagine you'd be a great go-to guy when it involved my money, fairness, and survival -- all on land I didn't even own. 

You're asking people to put their nest egg and life in your hands. It's not that any of us don't wish you well or hope it works. It's just difficult for most people to accept this concept and be supportive of it. I'm a pretty free-thinking and welcome seeing things outside the box, but I just can't imagine turning over my life to a one in charge of all (in fact, isn't that the concept of a dictatorship?). This whole thing is kind of the reverse of Democracy that we've seemed to fight so hard to keep and we see slipping away as it is.


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## goatlady (May 31, 2002)

Thank you, Karen!


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## KMA1 (Dec 9, 2006)

Hey Rick,

Since you are asking for it, I will put my 2 cents in. First, I am not interested in going inot the deal with you, even though I think Maine is great and would love to spend more time there. 
1.I think a lot of what you are hearing is that at lot of the people on this forum are very independent sorts and rightly wary of putting resourcers into something they don't own. 

2. Where you seem to be going is trying to develop a community of likeminded equals that are not really as equal as you, since you own the land and seem to want to make some of the decisions unilaterally. (I am not being critical, just what I am reading and hearing.)
3. I think from my own perspective that there are probably only a couple of other people who I would make such an arrangement with, even if I did it, and those are people I have known for over 40 years. Just saying, it would take a lot of mutual trust. But maybe I am just not a very trusting individual.
4. Some of these things might could be worked out, but the longterm record for communes (intentional communities) is not that great, though a few have been successful. Even in families, you don't see many (large population %) sibling families living on the same family land successfully. I have more land than you are talking about and I think it would be might cramped with even 5 families on the place.
5. From a technical point, there is no question you could store enough food on the land and dig wells, put in septic tanks, and have enough water according to your post. But I do question whether 10 or even 5 families could grow enough food on 100 acres to sustain themselves longterm. I am not talking a year but 3 years or more, especially in Maine's climate. Growing season is short and winter would be hard on livestock and require lots of hay. I know a lot of people talk about feeding the family off an acre garden and a few goats. Of course that doesn't include firewood source. But I have to have more land than that to do it in North Alabama, with a much longer growing season and milder shorter winter. I suspect a lot of those folks really depend a lot more on food they buy than they think.

6. I personally would be more interested in making sure my neighbors were likeminded. And look at a larger community based defense alternative.

Understand, I am not blasting what you are thinking about doing, just giving you my perspective. You may or may not find anything of use to you in your planning. 

But hey, for 60K no way would I pass up the deal if I were in your area! They ain't makin' no more land! Good Luck!

One more thing I forgot to add. Personally, I do agree that if you have a group, and particularly in difficult times that require action, someone has to be the leader. Nothing gets done effectively or in time by committee.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Wolf mom said:


> I've always found that if I go ahead and do something the way I want, if people like what I'm doing they'll ask & follow along.
> 
> In the mean time, dogs are good for guarding as that appears to be an important point for you.
> 
> Here in AZ you can divide your property 3 times without it coming under subdivision rules.


Here as soon as you want to divide 3 times or build 3 dwellings it becomes a subdiv w/all the requirements of surveying , necessary roadfrontage & going before the town planning board for their signed permission.
I have some ideas about how to get by this - prolly don't really want to subdivide . Surveying is fairly costy here now.
Can sell one lot every 5 yrs. w/no subdiv, or build 2 homes, but there could be 'sleeping' cabins w/a central bath & kitchen for a few folks.
Yes, dogs are good.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

goatlady said:


> Rick, what you are so vaguely proposing is a WHOLE lot different than "developing" 5 approximately 1 acres lots into a subdivision for resale. *Well, here if you sell more than one parcel in 5 yrs. it is a subdivision w/a lot of costy requirements - I could sell one piece to someone I got along with, then lease another to somebody else until I could sell in 5 yrs.. I don't want more people here than the land could support & the aspects of this land which make it so defensible are not great for conventional farming (hill-rocks) - there might be about 40 acres up at the top which is more level, BUT I will have to create the farm land as I go along w/my excavator. Project cannot work w/out this machine, but I have stated that if folks want to contribute time & money & work, then I am all ears for what you want to do, what you'd expect. I am not interested in selling too much of the land. May be I'll have to build this alone according to my vision & hope to pick and choose among all the footloose folk after SHTF ?* Truely interested people will email you and basically say "tell me more!" I'm asking "tell me more." What exactly are you looking for me to contribute - *"time, dollars, physical help", yes, all of that & goat experience for sure. I had some for a short period a long time ago - and what would you want for all of that ? I'd help you build, of course a barn will be needed, fencing needed*, what? I'm not so much interested in the physical aspects of building septics and drilling wells and building buildings, I want to know what is the benefit to me to move there and "participate" in your dream/vision? *Well, the point of the thread is that this is very defensible land in a great location. I have a 'pretty' defensible place right now w/room for a few goats & pigs, etc., but it isn't really as defensible as I'd like - too near my one boundary line and at the edge of a village (of 1200). How bad do you think it's going to get ? I recently got to know a very smart man for whom I'm selling an awesome retreat property who says "Oh NO, the govt. is the only thing holding society together right now !" That we are being allowed to buy all the guns & ammo we want so that soon we can tear each other apart ?* Will I have to buy into a business partnership? *That might be a good idea, no ? Lay out the mission statement & plans/directions - who will be responsible for what ?*If I propose a small setup with goats to benefit the "community, who will fund this venture? Who pays for the animals and the barn and the ongoing necessities in return for daily milk and cheese? *I suppose all would contribute to goats & I have expertise in building, but ten yrs ago I got $30/hr for that & milk & cheese are cheap right now anyway. There is a fairly inexpensive grocery store about 3 mi. away from this land.* Will the time and expertise I contribute be counted towards ???? or just taken for granted that I will do this forever?*I will work & defend the group forever, and it will be very much my work & knowledge to get this started & creat a farm w/hydropower & fish pond where now there are only hardwood trees & rocks & rocks & big rocks - we can build with these rocks. It will be my sawmill that saws up the framing members for roofs, etc.. I will build the difficult driveway to top of the land & will need an old dumptruck & some sort of loader to go w/my John Deer excavator to do that.* If you retain title to the land that also means you in reality own whatever I build on that land - that does not appeal to me in the least. *May sell some, may lease some, but when there is no law any more it will not pay to treat people poorly & make enemies of them see ? What would you do if I tried to take your investments away from you ?* What guarantee would I have that down the road you, as the land owner, would not give me notice to leave on the premise that I was trespassing on your property? will the property taxes be prorated? *They will not be much, but it would be nice to have contributions for this.*You MUST consider the legalities involved, as long as the country holds together. You are looking for seriously interested people, that requires you get serious also and have your responses ready for inquiries. These are the kinds of questions a serious committed homesteader is going to ask or should ask and expect sound answers to. You are basically asking for people to move lock, stock, and barrel with everything they own to a potentially unknown area, to live with potentially unkown others *No, I think there would be a LOT of getting to know each other before any commitments were taken, before anyone moves. I like laid-back people who yet want to work like the devil !? I am no longer very young & I think hard physical work is what will keep me in health & extend my enjoyable life (or kill me ?).*, in a basically vague and open situation, trusting that the dream in your head will work and is what they are dreaming also. Ain't gonna happen, dude. I am in a position to do that, but no way, Jose, will I commit without a firm plan for my future. So that leave me out, I guess which is too bad cause I could bring a ton of experience and knowledge to a project like that. s


*Shoot Gal, I was just trying to figure out if I should buy the land & what kind of people & suggestions I could get ! Overall that ain't going too well as yet ? But the price has come down again & one of the owners let something slip about their motivation when I was speaking to him, so now I'm thinking I should just grab this before some logger buys it & figure it all out later, you know ?*


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Land ownership requires a society behind you to support your claim. Otherwise its kind of a mute point. The very people you're trusting could easily turn against you even eliminate you. I don't know if you have the leadership skills to be successful or not, I don't get that feeling reading your idea, but honestly I can't see why you want to build a micro community (almost cult like) with people who have nothing but skills to add to your operation. You should want them to have a vested interest, cash on the table so its meaningful to them too. And yeah you really don't want to call all the shots or have to thwart people's ideas. You're just painting a target on yourself. In a serious SHTF situation you want to be a member of a good sized community, not a band of people scraping by on a mountain. JMO


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

KMA1 said:


> Hey Rick,
> 
> Since you are asking for it, I will put my 2 cents in. First, I am not interested in going inot the deal with you, even though I think Maine is great and would love to spend more time there.
> 1.I think a lot of what you are hearing is that at lot of the people on this forum are very independent sorts and rightly wary of putting resourcers into something they don't own. *Yep, need folks w/a similar vision & mindset - will be very, very lucky to find them ! But I have to try, no ?*
> ...


*Thank you ! That's what I'm talking about !*


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Ross said:


> Land ownership requires a society behind you to support your claim. Otherwise its kind of a mute point. The very people you're trusting could easily turn against you even eliminate you. I don't know if you have the leadership skills to be successful or not, I don't get that feeling reading your idea, but honestly I can't see why you want to build a micro community (almost cult like) with people who have nothing but skills to add to your operation. You should want them to have a vested interest, cash on the table so its meaningful to them too. And yeah you really don't want to call all the shots or have to thwart people's ideas. You're just painting a target on yourself. In a serious SHTF situation you want to be a member of a good sized community, not a band of people scraping by on a mountain. JMO


*Thank you for your opinions. Vested interest is staying alive among a small community working for common ends. This CANNOT be run as a committee - do you really think it could ?*


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Karen said:


> Okay Rick, I've read the whole thing (kind of rough reading which I think why people are misunderstanding), along with other's comments and your response to their comments. You're not a real friendly guy*Why, I'm friendly as a bucket o' bunnies ! Which critisism do you refer to - the Jonestown comment or the Waco one ?* nor take critism well there, do you? LOL!
> :rotfl:
> 
> What is troubling to me is that it seems like you don't want to be mayor of your community; you want to be 'king'. All because you believe you know more than the average Joe because you've been 'studing' on how to do all of this for so long and you know best.
> ...


*Yeah, Democracy didn't work well, did it ? Good idea in the beginning, great constitution, etc. - - well, the things that were allowed to creep in and screw that up would be a whole 'nother discussion. Your senators & legislators are now pretty much owned lock stock & barrel by the corporations & the ultra-wealthy folks who own them.*


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

rickfrosty said:


> *Thank you for your opinions. Vested interest is staying alive among a small community working for common ends. This CANNOT be run as a committee - do you really think it could ?*


Yes and for everyone's sake it pretty much has to. What would you do if someone broke a rule in a shtf situation? ask them to leave? Tell them to? Force them to? Can you..... really? If there are no repercussions from some sort of social order, (local govt. with a judiciary ) its dog eat dog. So do you want to be equal or so called in charge? "Your" claim to anything really requires everyone to know that justice is behind you. If you're the only impediment to getting their way, .... well you gotta sleep sometime. 

You talk about a common end. EXACTLY everyone working together, for EQUAL reward. But its not equal, its your land and you're steering the ship. It'll work for a while I suppose, but every bad decision is yours too, and they will come back to bite you. You become a lightening rod for everyone's problems. It'll either be Rick fix this or that or that guy Rick really messes up my life I gotta do something about it. (I get that here just moderating a few bulletin boards! LOL and I've worked on and chaired committees before too) 

Yeah you need community and shared efforts, with a replaceable governance accountable to those making the effort. And everyone has to feel they have a stake in doing what is needed, and that includes calling something their own. 

Besides who would you rather have with you? People who have invested their hard earned money and need you, or people with not very much who need your land?


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

If someone buys into this and you sell them land you would have to do survey's anyhow so moot point.

You would really have to split it up in managable peices with a common area you would raise common foods and for common defense.

Sell 10 acres a family and sell shares to the compound corporation require like amount of foodstuffs weapons ammunition fuel etc.

Have a board of directors to settle all issues of corp. Just remember these have been tried many times very few succeeding.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

coolrunnin said:


> If someone buys into this and you sell them land you would have to do survey's anyhow so moot point.
> 
> You would really have to split it up in managable peices with a common area you would raise common foods and for common defense.
> 
> ...


My understanding is that he doesn't want to sell the land or shares, just have people join together on his land in order to work together to survive. It's the issue of him owning the land and making all the rules that would concern me.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

yep me too...

He wanted suggestions before I bought in this was going to have to happen..


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## goatlady (May 31, 2002)

This statement tells me we are not of the same mind set, Rick, and most real homesteaders/preppers/those who plan to survive the coming collapse do not look at life this way..."I suppose all would contribute to goats & I have expertise in building, but ten yrs ago I got $30/hr for that & milk & cheese are cheap right now anyway. There is a fairly inexpensive grocery store about 3 mi. away from this land." You "suppose" all would contribute? I also have expertise in building, been building goat barns, chicken coops and other homestead necessary buildings for my use for 30+ years. I could care less about an inexpensive grocery store because the WHOLE POINT of homesteading and surviving hard times is to do it NOW developing the skills and learning to do without depending on an outside source for food and subsistance. I don't care how cheap store bought milk and cheese are, that does not make them good foods. and in my area anyway goat milk sells for over $2 a quart and goat cheese is $8 a pound and goat meat is $14 a pound! Farm eggs are averaging $2.50 a dozen. 

To say you will "create farmland" with your excavator is ludicrous! I can only assume you mean using the machinery to move rocks out of the way, but that in no way creates farmland. How do you envision creating proper tilth and soil nutrition which is absolutely essential for food production? How much if any land do you envision setting aside for livestock food and fodder? How much set aside for the grain necessary to sustain humans? Most folks I know who have a goodly stash of food set aside have that food to keep them going until their renewable crops are planted and harvested and they are planning on those new crops to replenish that stash each year. Therefore it would seem to me essential to first and foremost get the land in shape for crops ASAP. You mention underground greenhouses for growing season extenson. Have you experience in building and maintaining crops in a greenhouse? I built and grew in two 14 x 25's in SD at 5600' elevation for 15 years with a 90-day growing season, lots of snow and -15 temps for weeks on end and was picking tomatos one year still in December. Greenhouse building and growing is a skill that needs to be learned and actually practiced on a daily basis, not something that you build, plant and only come back to harvest stuff. 

Your basic premise/idea is good, guy and yes you should go ahead and purchase that land now. Put your well in, get your sawmill, drop your trees, saw your lumber, build your house, plumb it from your well and get water flowing without electricity, heat your home using only wood you have cut, split and dried from the land and start practicing your ideas. That is what many of us here have done and are doing on a daily basis. We are aware that you are successful in the world of today, show us you are/can be successful in the potential world of tomorrow and by doing that you will be able to find the appropriate folks to join in further development of your vision.


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## FreeRanger (Jul 20, 2005)

Like Shoneshine and Boss, I think your approach will turn off most people. Could that be why your family member are cool to the idea? Not all of us are born leaders, your post shows a lack of organizational skills. Your responses show a lack of manners to the few who have taken the time to read your message and provide a comment.

I am not attacking your ideas. I am trying to help you communicate better so that you get better results in your quest for the "perfect" environment. Hence your ideas are currently getting lost in the delivery.

I wish you luck on finding "partners." Life is always better when we share the journey with others.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Ross said:


> Yes and for everyone's sake it pretty much has to. What would you do if someone broke a rule in a shtf situation? ask them to leave? Tell them to? Force them to? Can you..... really? If there are no repercussions from some sort of social order, (local govt. with a judiciary ) its dog eat dog. So do you want to be equal or so called in charge? "Your" claim to anything really requires everyone to know that justice is behind you. If you're the only impediment to getting their way, .... well you gotta sleep sometime.
> 
> You talk about a common end. EXACTLY everyone working together, for EQUAL reward. But its not equal, its your land and you're steering the ship. It'll work for a while I suppose, but every bad decision is yours too, and they will come back to bite you. You become a lightening rod for everyone's problems. It'll either be Rick fix this or that or that guy Rick really messes up my life I gotta do something about it. (I get that here just moderating a few bulletin boards! LOL and I've worked on and chaired committees before too)
> 
> ...


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

coolrunnin said:


> If someone buys into this and you sell them land you would have to do survey's anyhow so moot point.
> 
> You would really have to split it up in managable peices with a common area you would raise common foods and for common defense.
> 
> ...


All reasonable-sounding, but then you come to your last statement which tends to negate the idea ?


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Sonshine said:


> My understanding is that he doesn't want to sell the land or shares, just have people join together on his land in order to work together to survive. * It's the issue of him owning the land and making all the rules that would concern me*.


This is too 'black & white' - I am not a black & white person, & if anybody tries to absorb what I've tried to say you see that I have said I WOULD consider selling a bit, or leasing, or perhaps shares, and that, if some one or someones, prove they are practical & have good decisions, that I would share the direction of the project.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Just pointing out it is very difficult to get many people of differing backgrounds to make this work. I wish you much success.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

goatlady said:


> This statement tells me we are not of the same mind set, Rick, and most real homesteaders/preppers/those who plan to survive the coming collapse do not look at life this way..."I suppose all would contribute to goats & I have expertise in building, but ten yrs ago I got $30/hr for that & milk & cheese are cheap right now anyway. There is a fairly inexpensive grocery store about 3 mi. away from this land." You "suppose" all would contribute? I also have expertise in building, been building goat barns, chicken coops and other homestead necessary buildings for my use for 30+ years. I could care less about an inexpensive grocery store because the WHOLE POINT of homesteading and surviving hard times is to do it NOW developing the skills and learning to do without depending on an outside source for food and subsistance. I don't care how cheap store bought milk and cheese are, that does not make them good foods. and in my area anyway goat milk sells for over $2 a quart and goat cheese is $8 a pound and goat meat is $14 a pound! Farm eggs are averaging $2.50 a dozen.
> *Sorry, just threw that out - you're a little prickly to talk to aren't you ?*
> 
> To say you will "create farmland" with your excavator is ludicrous! I can only assume you mean using the machinery to move rocks out of the way, but that in no way creates farmland. How do you envision creating proper tilth and soil nutrition which is absolutely essential for food production? How much if any land do you envision setting aside for livestock food and fodder? How much set aside for the grain necessary to sustain humans? Most folks I know who have a goodly stash of food set aside have that food to keep them going until their renewable crops are planted and harvested and they are planning on those new crops to replenish that stash each year.
> ...


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

FreeRanger said:


> Like Shoneshine and Boss, I think your approach will turn off most people. Could that be why your family member are cool to the idea? Not all of us are born leaders, your post shows a lack of organizational skills. Your responses show a lack of manners to the few who have taken the time to read your message and provide a comment.
> 
> I am not attacking your ideas. I am trying to help you communicate better so that you get better results in your quest for the "perfect" environment. Hence your ideas are currently getting lost in the delivery.
> 
> I wish you luck on finding "partners." Life is always better when we share the journey with others.


Thank you for your comments. Part of 'communicating' here is to not only fully read, but to absorb what someone has posted, no ?
And my half-siblings are beloved, but very different from me .
Any 'lack of manners' on my part is towards people who have the effrontery to criticise w/out fully absorbing the posts. Don't forget that I saw this opening up my ideas as having little benefit for the time required, but I did it hoping for positive suggestions (which there have been few), many seem mostly interested in arguing, and almost no one has posted any ideas of community management that seem more likely than my ideas which people get so up in arms about.
Since somehow you see me as so lacking in organisation Sir, how would you set this up ?


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## FreeRanger (Jul 20, 2005)

If "full absorb the post" means agree to your "ideas" then you will continue to be disappointed. I think community management is another way of saying limited freedoms. Study the deontological libertarians philosophy.

Move to an island (and only bring family members as in your direct minor children) that would be a better setup. If the SHTF, no one is going to go looking for you on an island, if you are far enough away from the mainland. 

On land, sooner or later your defenses will be breached. There are far more humans then you have guns/bullets (no matter how many you have or can create). Also the humans outside of your "fort" will have far more assets to use to breach your defenses. Say you have 50 people on your side (which I don't see happening), I have MORE than 1,000 hunger/angry people on my side from a nearby community. We can just over whelm you one day/night. We will take losses but history shows you will lose in the end.

Otherwise, I personally think your whole concept (lifestyle) is flawed. I live to help others, not to help just myself and a few like minded individuals. When/If the SHTF, I will be busy helping my neighbors, sharing whatever I can. I have lived a full life, and I am not old, middle age by today's standard. I find joy in helping others. I enjoy debating issues with people of a different view point. I don't like hanging around servants/slaves/sheeple/simpletons/followers/ etc.... Suround yourself with the positive, down with the negitive people.

So I can't give much constructive help. I can only pray that you will under go a change of heart some day. Otherwise, continue to live in fear (a sad way to live). While the rest of us enjoy the life God has provided us.

I think you will be more successful (happy) if you have a plan (lifestyle) that supports the local community rather than isolates people.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

FreeRanger said:


> If "full absorb the post" means agree to your "ideas" then you will continue to be disappointed. I think community management is another way of saying limited freedoms. Study the deontological libertarians philosophy.
> 
> Move to an island (and only bring family members as in your direct minor children) that would be a better setup. If the SHTF, no one is going to go looking for you on an island, if you are far enough away from the mainland.
> 
> ...


This is what I've been trying to do. I've been trying to educate my neighbors, some agree others don't, but those that agree are working towards a more self sustained lifestyle. We have discussed working to protect our neighborhood, and maybe because we're a military family living close to a military installation we have many vets around and they all bring their areas of expertise to the group. Are we safe from any attacks? No, but with our combined knowledge we stand a fairly decent chance of protecting ourselves, but bottom line is, whether we live through what's coming or not, as a Christian I don't fear death and when it's my time to go I'm ready.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

FreeRanger said:


> If "full absorb the post" means agree to your "ideas" then you will continue to be disappointed. I think community management is another way of saying limited freedoms. Study the deontological libertarians philosophy.
> 
> Move to an island (and only bring family members as in your direct minor children) that would be a better setup. If the SHTF, no one is going to go looking for you on an island, if you are far enough away from the mainland.
> 
> ...



Your concept is also flawed what happens when they overwhelm your means, and they will. I really feel there is no right perfect answer all you can do is try to balance both ideas and hope for the best.


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## FreeRanger (Jul 20, 2005)

Sonshine has it right. Work towards a more self sustainable lifestyle. Promote ideas like "buy local", buy in season, raise a garden NOT a lawn, make friends with the good people in your area. You get the idea. 

I like to push for raising heritage livestock. I like to call then "un-improved" breeds. Which means they still grow normal on no special diet. They eat grass or whatever is available. 

Rick, That is one thing you can add to your plans. Raise heritage livestock, not rabbits as you have stated. Wild game like rabbits don't need to be contained, they just need habitat, which gets back to stop trying to mow the lawn to look pretty. Grow your lawn to promote wildlife. My "lawn" is full of wildlife. So far this spring I caught a nice big frog, a few brown snakes. Last night I came home to a gift from the dogs in the garage: dead mole. Seems they like to kill one each Spring when the moles are expanding their territory into the dog's run. 

An exception to the wildlife rule: I would raise domestic turkeys, even thou we have wild ones in the backyard. My experience shows that once you have an adult pair of heritage turkeys, they can (if provided the right environment like a water source at the homestead) be self sustainable year round with no inputs but the water. They don't need food or housing. They will find it and still come back "home." My tom's would sleep outside the shelter, even in a snow/ice storm. The hens would go under the lean-to roof.


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## FreeRanger (Jul 20, 2005)

coolrunnin said:


> Your concept is also flawed what happens when they overwhelm your means, and they will. I really feel there is no right perfect answer all you can do is try to balance both ideas and hope for the best.


You are right, there is no perfect answer. Didn't say I have it.

Don't get me wrong, we (my spouse and I) are not defenseless. We have a few key weapons and some ammo (not a lot). I have been purposely firing my hand guns when the neighbors are home, to send a signal. Not often, never very much (maybe two or two three rounds), at varying times, at different directions. They know I hunt.

We don't show our "wealth" to the public, by that I mean we don't look like a place that would have a lot of money/goods on hand. We have skill and tools, not high value assets. You can't steal my trees and bushes with me noticing. Our home sits above (but not on top of the hill) looking down on most of the property. Other things like that...

But you can't overwhelm us because we aren't trying to stop people from coming. I am OK with dying, if someone wants to end my life by taking it or things from me. I have no doubt that in some areas people will "go crazy" and break the laws of humanity. I can only hope that my neighbors are not going to allow that to happen in my area by banding together. 

Hence why I don't live in the South. Different mentality "down" there. I have lived in NC. 1990, high school graduation rate was 64%, when we decided that our children could not be raised in that environment. Suround yourself with selfish (and many other words that will just draw out the flames here) and then you might have to live in fear.


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## goatlady (May 31, 2002)

Extremely defensible is fine and dandy IF there is something there worth defending! It is the wrong 1st priority in looking for land to develop for sustainable living. Your 2nd priority of all that salable fire wood is also bass akwards. Most folks are fully capable of generating their own fire wood in that area of the country. But the big thing is you keep harping/bringing up LOTS that us folks need to "absorb" your posts. Hate to mention, guy, but humans do not absorb words and ideas by osmosis. There must be logic and facts and clearly defined ideas that people can read about and think over in their minds and draw conclusions from and your vague ideas and nebulous vision do not give us much to think about or discuss ij order to make workable suggestions. You very well may have more definite plans of action and work already figured out, but you have not managed to share those with us yet. You keep asking for ideas/suggestions and then turning right around and basically rejecting those suggestions with the accusation that we have not "absorbed" your vision correctly! Get real, Rick. The suggestion has been made by several posters that every vision must have a logical, written, agreed upon plan of action/work in order to be realized and you have not provided that to this point. The particular piece of property really does not matter at this point anyway, because a well thought out plan will work on most any property you would be interested in and a clear, concise plan would most probably help you in finding and purchasing the appropriate piece of property because you would be looking for property that would be able to fullfill most of your plan! 

Yes, I'm "picky' about words and their meanings, I am a former English teacher for goodness sake! Your words in these posts are all we have to go by so they need to be chosen carefully to convey exactly what you want to tell us. It is not logical to expect us to automatically know or figure out your meanings of the words you use. It's basic human nature to interpret experiences and words based on individual personal experiences and mine are very different than yours just based on gender and age difference. We ARE trying to help you put this vision together, but apparently our ways of doing so do not compute with your personal life experiences. 

I, personally, have gotten the idea, from all your posts here over time, that your life style has been focused on "flipping" properties which is fine and dandy and has accomplished your purposes at the time, but that lifestyle will not work to accomplish the reality of the vision you seem to be having in this particular thread. That vision requires a whole different outlook, one that is still hard for you to grasp it seems and one that apparently is still very "foreign" and different to you, and that's okay, we have all been through the same sort of shift at one time or another in our lives. Some are successful in shifting and some are not and that's okay also. What is not okay is us being accused of not "understanding" what you are trying to accomplish and not absorbing your meanings. We Do understand and are trying to share with you our practical experiences of actually doing this and accomplishing a similar "vision" and what worked and what did not work, granted on a slightly smaller scale, but still basically the same vision. It's you who do not understand yet what is involved, the long tern it takes to do all those things, so you accuse us of not helping. So be it. Your choice as you started this thread in the first place with questions you said you wanted answers to.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

FreeRanger said:


> If "full absorb the post" means agree to your "ideas" then you will continue to be disappointed. I think community management is another way of saying limited freedoms. Study the deontological libertarians philosophy.*
> Eh, no, "fully absorb the post" means to read the whole thing not skim & then digest it for 2 seconds before making outragious assumptions ?
> I read about deontological libertarians & don't see a lot of relevence, but if somebody comes up my hill w/a rifle I'll ask him if he is one before I shoot his butt ??*
> 
> ...


*After seeing how argumentative even the good folks here on a survivalist forum are, then good luck getting regular uninformed people to work together & prepare. But yes, I would try to work w/local community while keeping my preps & retreat farm as quiet as possible*.
* I do NOT want partners who feel that they should hand out free food and supplies to any unfortunates who have not prepared - that is one of the situations that have this country pretty much on it's knees, no ?
AND it would create zombies who depended on you & your hand-outs, and would return every day for more while bringing others - they will not be happy when you have to tell them that your own supplies are running low and you must shut off their freebies.*


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

FreeRanger said:


> Sonshine has it right. Work towards a more self sustainable lifestyle. Promote ideas like "buy local", buy in season, raise a garden NOT a lawn, make friends with the good people in your area. You get the idea.
> 
> I like to push for raising heritage livestock. I like to call then "un-improved" breeds. Which means they still grow normal on no special diet. They eat grass or whatever is available.
> 
> ...


*Interesting about Turkeys - thank you.*


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

goatlady said:


> Extremely defensible is fine and dandy IF there is something there worth defending! It is the wrong 1st priority in looking for land to develop for sustainable living. Your 2nd priority of all that salable fire wood is also bass akwards. Most folks are fully capable of generating their own fire wood in that area of the country. But the big thing is you keep harping/bringing up LOTS that us folks need to "absorb" your posts. Hate to mention, guy, but humans do not absorb words and ideas by osmosis. There must be logic and facts and clearly defined ideas that people can read about and think over in their minds and draw conclusions from and your vague ideas and nebulous vision do not give us much to think about or discuss ij order to make workable suggestions. You very well may have more definite plans of action and work already figured out, but you have not managed to share those with us yet. You keep asking for ideas/suggestions and then turning right around and basically rejecting those suggestions with the accusation that we have not "absorbed" your vision correctly! Get real, Rick. The suggestion has been made by several posters that every vision must have a logical, written, agreed upon plan of action/work in order to be realized and you have not provided that to this point. The particular piece of property really does not matter at this point anyway, because a well thought out plan will work on most any property you would be interested in and a clear, concise plan would most probably help you in finding and purchasing the appropriate piece of property because you would be looking for property that would be able to fullfill most of your plan!
> 
> Yes, I'm "picky' about words and their meanings, I am a former English teacher for goodness sake! Your words in these posts are all we have to go by so they need to be chosen carefully to convey exactly what you want to tell us. It is not logical to expect us to automatically know or figure out your meanings of the words you use. It's basic human nature to interpret experiences and words based on individual personal experiences and mine are very different than yours just based on gender and age difference. We ARE trying to help you put this vision together, but apparently our ways of doing so do not compute with your personal life experiences.
> 
> I, personally, have gotten the idea, from all your posts here over time, that your life style has been focused on "flipping" properties which is fine and dandy and has accomplished your purposes at the time, but that lifestyle will not work to accomplish the reality of the vision you seem to be having in this particular thread. That vision requires a whole different outlook, one that is still hard for you to grasp it seems and one that apparently is still very "foreign" and different to you, and that's okay, we have all been through the same sort of shift at one time or another in our lives. Some are successful in shifting and some are not and that's okay also. What is not okay is us being accused of not "understanding" what you are trying to accomplish and not absorbing your meanings. We Do understand and are trying to share with you our practical experiences of actually doing this and accomplishing a similar "vision" and what worked and what did not work, granted on a slightly smaller scale, but still basically the same vision. It's you who do not understand yet what is involved, the long tern it takes to do all those things, so you accuse us of not helping. So be it. Your choice as you started this thread in the first place with questions you said you wanted answers to.


*Just thought it would be nice if people actually read the whole post & digested it for a few seconds before jumping to these radical assumptions & judgements about me & my ideas/personality (?) such as you seem to do.
This is a survival forum & I wanted to propose a property which was very, very defensible and prolly with a LOT of work, could have up top about 40 acres of hidden farm to support a few people of like mind.
It has been an interesting ride w/a couple of ideas gleaned, but is taking too much of my time in this busy season to refute all the amazing assumptions people jump to - like that my lifestyle is one of 'flipping' properties primarily ??
Enjoy your goats & anger.*


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

Extremely defensible with a total of 3 or 4 families? What's that maybe 10 people that can handle a gun? Being geographically isolated is a great plan to keep bad guys from showing up, but if they do you are screwed. No close neighbors to help or even know if you need help. Isolation or community? There are tradeoffs both ways.

Good luck to you in finding some like minded people. It sounds like a great property and you fortunately have the finances to buy it.

"We got a failure to communicate" That seem obvious to me. People read your posts and make comments, you say "no that is not what I mean, not what I am saying". You blame folks for not reading, not understanding or when you get a little tweaked allude to their lack of intelligence. The point is that if people are not understanding what you are trying to say and you want them to, you have to find a better way of communicating. I read the entire thread and am not sure what kind or relationship, partneership ect you are looking for. No need to explain to me, I am not interested. I have a nice farm. It is totally undefensible, if 10 guys, heck 3 guys show up in the middle of the night to kill me I am probably dead. You probably are too.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

bruce2288 said:


> Extremely defensible with a total of 3 or 4 families? What's that maybe 10 people that can handle a gun? Being geographically isolated is a great plan to keep bad guys from showing up, but if they do you are screwed. No close neighbors to help or even know if you need help. Isolation or community? There are tradeoffs both ways.
> 
> Good luck to you in finding some like minded people. It sounds like a great property and you fortunately have the finances to buy it.
> 
> "We got a failure to communicate" That seem obvious to me. People read your posts and make comments, you say "no that is not what I mean, not what I am saying". You blame folks for not reading, not understanding or when you get a little tweaked allude to their lack of intelligence. The point is that if people are not understanding what you are trying to say and you want them to, you have to find a better way of communicating. I read the entire thread and am not sure what kind or relationship, partneership ect you are looking for. No need to explain to me, I am not interested. I have a nice farm. It is totally undefensible, if 10 guys, heck 3 guys show up in the middle of the night to kill me I am probably dead. You probably are too.


*Nope, 1st of all, this land is so hard to approach, and the farm & houses at the top of it are so very hard to approach that baddies will go somewhere else if they even know anything is up there. And ten adults w/plenty of guns & ammo COULD defend this place if you had alarm systems/animals and were allways on the lookout - we are talking earth-sheltered stone houses. (Which can easily be designed to also be fallout shelters).*


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## goatlady (May 31, 2002)

In your own words, Rick, of about a week ago ..."but I have to say homestead/retreat buyers are the absolute worst in the entire world !!?" Until you can achieve a better understanding of how a homesteader looks at the world your statement will be true FOR YOU. Do you have any long-time homesteader friends you interact with on a regular basis? Have you visited with and/or stayed with a homesteader friend for a week or more and actually experienced the lifestyle? We DO think differently, we do approach property differently, our goals are mostly different than "regular" 9-5 folks. 

BTW I do enjoy my goats and in no way am I "angry." LOL. I'm old enough to be your mother, guy, and waaaay past wasting time on anger or resentment, or any negative emotion. I love my life and enjoy helping others achieve their goals by teaching practical skills and sharing information as to what has worked for me. What are you teaching others in a face to face situation? What information have you shared with others as to what has worked for you and just as importantly what have you learned from others that has improved your life positively? All of the above would be extremely valuable and helpful in achieving your original post's goals.


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

This land sits next to a 2lane hard surface road, with a real nice driveway, you plan to build a road to the level top part. So the back portion of land maybe a half mile from the hyway. Even if your drive way is real steep it might take 10 minutes to walk up the hill or wait since you have a driveway, why don't I drive up. WAy way hard to get to.


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## MrManifesto (Sep 23, 2011)

you're putting the cart before the horse here. not trying to pile on, but YES i read your posts and i understand them perfectly. that doesn't mean i (or we) agree. 

you seem to have no concrete plan, not that you can explain to us, anyway. people here have asked the baseline, skin deep questions that any rational person would, considering you're asking them to uproot their entire lives. you need a plan first, then people. if you think you're going to get people with some vague wand waving and then come up with a plan, let me assure you, you won't.

if you can't handle criticism on a computer, which it looks like you can't, i can't imagine what it would be like on your "farm". what would you do in real life? wave them away and say "you can't possibly think i'd be that stupid"? (a quote). good luck with that.


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## Catalpa (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm with goatlady on this one, Rick. Your posts are difficult to understand; there isn't a logical flow to your ideas and the lack of punctuation and grammar adds to the vagueness. As with the other thread, the one consistent idea I see is that you are in control of everything. So what would be the incentive for anyone else to join up with you?


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

bruce2288 said:


> This land sits next to a 2lane hard surface road, with a real nice driveway, you plan to build a road to the level top part. So the back portion of land maybe a half mile from the hyway. Even if your drive way is real steep it might take 10 minutes to walk up the hill or wait since you have a driveway, why don't I drive up. WAy way hard to get to.


Why assume someone is so stupid as to have an undefended driveway.
It would have 2 solid gates under observation/fire.
And by the way the road, by the really dangerous times, will be guarded below next town down - the beauty here is that ME is 90% a forest w/not many roads going every which way & people w/guns to guard them against troublemakers.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

MrManifesto said:


> you're putting the cart before the horse here. not trying to pile on, but YES i read your posts and i understand them perfectly. that doesn't mean i (or we) agree.
> 
> you seem to have no concrete plan, not that you can explain to us, anyway. people here have asked the baseline, skin deep questions that any rational person would, considering you're asking them to uproot their entire lives. you need a plan first, then people. if you think you're going to get people with some vague wand waving and then come up with a plan, let me assure you, you won't.
> 
> if you can't handle criticism on a computer, which it looks like you can't, i can't imagine what it would be like on your "farm". what would you do in real life? wave them away and say "you can't possibly think i'd be that stupid"? (a quote). good luck with that.


You took the time to read the posts, what is your plan ? How would you lay out the management of a project like this ? And keeping in mind present regs on subdivision of land (one sale of land {which I offered}, and only 2 dwellings allowed w/out complicated, expensive subdiv), how would you set up the ownership of the land ?


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Catalpa said:


> I'm with goatlady on this one, Rick. Your posts are difficult to understand; there isn't a logical flow to your ideas and the lack of punctuation and grammar adds to the vagueness. As with the other thread, the one consistent idea I see is that you are in control of everything. So what would be the incentive for anyone else to join up with you?


Sheesh, I have now said over & over that if you are more proficient than I in something you would be in charge of that, and that I would definitely consult on decisions .
The incentive is a pretty safe location, a very defensible location - to make a stand !

As to "lack of punctuation and grammar adds to the vagueness", well, take your time, I guess ?


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

Rick, it's nothing personal. Like I said before, Just not a good plan and for sure the Location could be a whole lot better for what you are planning. Way too many people 
within range of your Compound.


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## MrManifesto (Sep 23, 2011)

rickfrosty said:


> You took the time to read the posts, what is your plan ? How would you lay out the management of a project like this ? And keeping in mind present regs on subdivision of land (one sale of land {which I offered}, and only 2 dwellings allowed w/out complicated, expensive subdiv), how would you set up the ownership of the land ?


i don't know how i would do it, but i'm not the one trying to talk people into it.

with the situation you're talking about, you can "study" all you want, but there's two things to keep in mind here. first one is until you've done it all yourself, you can't ask other people to do it for/with you. are you currently living in a completely self sufficient way? if not, that's your first step. until you can do that, there's no way you could talk other people into doing it with you. 

secondly and arguably more difficult, is that after you've developed every single skill you'd need, this entire venture will hang on the ability of the leader (you) to BE a leader. social aspects to this will make or break your plan, regardless of your skill set. unless you're a politician, police chief, master of infrastructure and maintenance and have infinite time and energy, you can't do all of on your own. a good leader would be able to inspire those people to join the group and participate voluntarily. 

be honest with yourself. real, real honest. are you that kind of leader?


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

"but I prolly COULD get a few people ready as quietly as possible to repel those other hungry locals (don't think many other groups of looters *will make it up this far*) who haven't stocked food & learned to produce food."

Remember you might be on the north border of the states but you're in very close proximity to the Quebekers, and there's lots of them


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> Rick, it's nothing personal. Like I said before, Just not a good plan and for sure the Location could be a whole lot better for what you are planning. Way too many people
> within range of your Compound.


Well, I'll try one more time - there are only 410 people in entire township, so what are you talking about Dude ?


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Sanza said:


> "but I prolly COULD get a few people ready as quietly as possible to repel those other hungry locals (don't think many other groups of looters *will make it up this far*) who haven't stocked food & learned to produce food."
> 
> Remember you might be on the north border of the states but you're in very close proximity to the Quebekers, and there's lots of them


Yes ? There is only one road (Rt. 27) for the Quebecois to come down, and that is if they somehow ignore the border - this road can be heavily guarded, but unless US govt. completely goes down, they are very commited to keeping the northern border secure.


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## SteveO (Apr 14, 2009)

Evening,
Ok to make this land work 
I claim 40 ac to raise cattle
anther 40ac to grow hay for the winter
Another 5 for a garden
5 for a orchard
15 for for firewood
5 for lodgings
if I am going to close the gates and raise the drawbridge. i think for 2 families that is what you would need to survive.
How close am I to what you envision
???
Steve


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## debbiekatiesmom (Feb 24, 2009)

rick, i know you have been searching for a partner for quite some time. i see your desire to live a sustainable lifestyle. i like the idea that your property is highly defensible, etc. i like that you are more remote, etc, etc. and i am sure many like these ideas, also. 

but, and again, not to criticize, but to make it more understandable for all, would these people that come there not be able to live in their own house, but have to use a common kitchen, etc? i see that you said 2 houses can be built, and then the bit about sleeping rooms. did i misinterpret that? what exactly are your plans for their living quarters-precisely please? were you wanting families w small children? teens? elderly? what happens should one of your tenants become ill or injured? how long do they have to recover before they become of no value to the community and have to leave? are there jobs in the area to be had? can you describe exactly what duties and responsibilities these families would have? there are so many questions that come up w this situation. and before someone would even consider a move you would need to have ready answers. and maybe you do already, but you need to convey them a bit more clearly. have you considered that the reason why you still have no takers after all this time is that maybe it is in your delivery and lack of willingness to discuss without making derogatory comments. have you considered using some type of contract detailing expectations for both parties? at our bol several parties may be arriving and there would have to be some type or pecking order and bylaws. i do see that, but they need to be laid out clearly. 

my goodness! to me it looks like goatlady would be an ideal person to have. no amount of money can account for the experience she has. you can't find all that knowledge in books. and i did not feel that she was angry at all. i believe you are very self-defensive and not keeping an open mind when discussing details.

and last, but certainly not least, the more i thought about it, and i did give quite a bit of time to it and re-reading, what comes to mind is the word sharecropping.

you stated, "Sheesh, I have now said over & over that if you are more proficient than I in something you would be in charge of that, and that I would definitely consult on decisions". you would get the to always make the ultimate decision to decide IF they are more proficient.

ultimately, it looks like the invited tenants would be sharecroppers.

Sharecropping
Sharecropping was an agricultural labor system 
that developed in Georgia and throughout the South following Reconstruction and lasted until the mid-twentieth century. Under this arrangement, laborers with no land of their own worked on farm plots owned by others, and at the end of the season landowners paid workers a share of the crop. 

i believe we know how that worked out?


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Isn't Maine sorta close to NYC? From a micro look at google maps, looks like less than 200 miles... If I lived in NYC, and the shtf, which way would I go? I'd head for the area with less people, than more, and that probably means headed NE, to relatively unpopulated ME. Of course, I'd probably starve to death in ME, as it's not really known as an agricultural mecca (could be, but I haven't ever heard it claimed to be), and I imagine the wildlife would disappear just as quickly there, as any other place, if the 'bubbas' are game warden free....

Like anything else, if you build it, they will come.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

rickfrosty said:


> Well, I'll try one more time - there are only 410 people in entire township, so what are you talking about Dude ?


The MILLIONS of people within 100 miles of you, the number of people per square mile I quoted you. You just don't get it man.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

SteveO said:


> Evening,
> Ok to make this land work
> I claim 40 ac to raise cattle
> anther 40ac to grow hay for the winter
> ...


Well, I wish this could be, but the theme of the OP & of this land is the defensibiblity of a top of the hill out-of-sight-out-of-mind farm where the more level, farmable land is only going to be about 40 acres total . 
Now, when I say farmable I mean grain field, hay, gardens & pasture, BUT the rocky hillside will be fine for appletrees, goats & pigs, & maybe ox/cow to use occasionally to let normal pasture grow up again.
Of course the entire thing is in small to young-mature hardwood now, so the hillside 60+/- acres will remain in firewood & sugar maple w/trees left (& protected) here & there for shade in the cleared areas. 
The rocks can be harvested to stiffen fencing & for building the earth-sheltered homes/barns/workshops, etc.
Oh, & will mention again the HUGE fertile hay field next to the trout river in the river-bottom land across the 2-lane from the land. I know the wheeler-dealer who owns that field & why wouldn't he sell hay that needed to be trucked only across the road & up the hill - or barter ?
I do not see a whole lot of large animals that need 2 tons of hay a year.
I see a couple families & maybe a few spare single adult shooters, but were I to cast a plan in cement so early in the game it would've changed many times prior to coming to fruition.
I am talking to a couple separate parties to look at the land to see about splitting 50/50 w/them ?


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> The MILLIONS of people within 100 miles of you, the number of people per square mile I quoted you. You just don't get it man.


Have you been following along Bubba ? There are only 1.3 million in entire big state, and the per/mi number you quoted was wrong for the main part of the state which is a huge (17 miln. acre) forest w/farms interspersed .
Except for the band along excellent coastline there are about 43 ppl. per sq. mi. in the rest of the state . (Less in town I'm considering, something like 15/mi.)
AND, I don't intend to move to the wide-open west (more dangerous in my humble opinion ?), but to stay in this presently very, very safe area where my ancestors on both sides were pioneers & head of the 1st ME Militia formed to fight Indians . 
Would you have me throw up my hands & give up, or what is your suggestion ?
My present 6.3 acres is defensible to a point, but not if some hungry person (armed) was willing to hide in the woods & wait to pick one of us off.
My 20 acres 25 mi. away w/haybarn available needs a lot of work to farm, and is in a higher tax town, but would be quite defensible on my own road off little dead-end town road.
If the neighbors there in the houses I have built & sold to them got on board this would be excellent if slightly weak in acreage (25 total surrounded by woods if including neighbors). And these properties are fully-owned, so they don't own me. 
Don't like high heat & humidity, or snakes, so pretty happy to do the best I can right around here Pal. Winter keeps the bums away too !


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Rick - you and all the others, but you started it.... cut out the Dude's, Bubba's and such. You are killing YOUR dream with that type of talk.

If you cannot answer the reasonable questions extended here trying to help you formulate a concrete plan that MIGHT work, and pointing out that even little towns of 410 can be invaded by those from a circumference of 100+ miles, then you are not going to get anywhere fast.

Since you've posted this premise on at least one other forum, and people have tried to help you - and you will not listen; you just come back with the Dude's and Bubba's and other derogatory toned posts - do not expect a different out come here.

The posters here are smart enough to plan for possible contengiencies and you are putting them down. Not smart on your part.

I was hoping there would be a decent exchange of information; but you are the problem stopping it.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

texican said:


> Isn't Maine sorta close to NYC? From a micro look at google maps, looks like less than 200 miles... If I lived in NYC, and the shtf, which way would I go? I'd head for the area with less people, than more, and that probably means headed NE, to relatively unpopulated ME. Of course, I'd probably starve to death in ME, as it's not really known as an agricultural mecca (could be, but I haven't ever heard it claimed to be), and I imagine the wildlife would disappear just as quickly there, as any other place, if the 'bubbas' are game warden free....
> 
> Like anything else, if you build it, they will come.


Tex, Boston is 230 mi., NYC considerably farther and you have no idea how hard it'd be to make a lot of progress up into the forests of ME (where there are fewer roads), where most of the citizenry are armed.
1st thing is to block the Kittery bridge - you don't come into ME w/out legitimate business & $ or food or something, to trade, you know ? That is the main entrance to the state from anywhere south.
Armed citizenry is obviously a challenge, but on the other hand, many of them may go south as heating fuels get more expensive and the economy worse. When there is little gas for unprepared Bubbas to run sno-mos & ATV's it will be relatively easy to guard the much fewer roads you have in this basically forest environment as opposed to other areas. Even the off-road vehicles cannot go willy-nilly anywhere, but must follow trails which can be guarded.
We don need no steenkeen Looters !!
As to farming mecca, it actually used to be, and supplied potatos (& apples to some extent) to the east coast back in the day of the windships.
Refrigerated shipping made it hard for ME to compete, but farming here was the rule, back in the day .


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

AngieM2 said:


> Rick - you and all the others, but you started it.... cut out the Dude's, Bubba's and such. You are killing YOUR dream with that type of talk.
> 
> If you cannot answer the reasonable questions extended here trying to help you formulate a concrete plan that MIGHT work, and pointing out that even little towns of 410 can be invaded by those from a circumference of 100+ miles, then you are not going to get anywhere fast.
> 
> ...


Cut er off then as far as I am concerned, takes a huge amount of time & effort, and is like trying to shovel back the tide !


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

debbiekatiesmom said:


> rick, i know you have been searching for a partner for quite some time. i see your desire to live a sustainable lifestyle. i like the idea that your property is highly defensible, etc. i like that you are more remote, etc, etc. and i am sure many like these ideas, also.
> 
> but, and again, not to criticize, but to make it more understandable for all, would these people that come there not be able to live in their own house, but have to use a common kitchen, etc? i see that you said 2 houses can be built, and then the bit about sleeping rooms. did i misinterpret that? what exactly are your plans for their living quarters-precisely please? were you wanting families w small children? teens? elderly? what happens should one of your tenants become ill or injured? how long do they have to recover before they become of no value to the community and have to leave? are there jobs in the area to be had? can you describe exactly what duties and responsibilities these families would have? there are so many questions that come up w this situation. and before someone would even consider a move you would need to have ready answers. and maybe you do already, but you need to convey them a bit more clearly. have you considered that the reason why you still have no takers after all this time is that maybe it is in your delivery and lack of willingness to discuss without making derogatory comments. have you considered using some type of contract detailing expectations for both parties? at our bol several parties may be arriving and there would have to be some type or pecking order and bylaws. i do see that, but they need to be laid out clearly.
> 
> ...


On the other hand, sharecropping did work to some extent, some cases more than others, no doubt, and we may see it become common again as our life here changes radically ? 
Thank you for your comments.


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## FreeRanger (Jul 20, 2005)

rickfrosty[B said:


> Yep, looks like I'll have to do that, was just hoping to get a wee bit of help - not completely sure if I can do all this ALL by myself - it is a major undertaking.[/B]


At the beginning of this thread you made it very clear this project is not going to be successful. I read into your post the following: 

#1 you are not young, only a matter of time before your health becomes an issue, then you will WANT to be closer to a city.
#2 you do not have a spouse, no woman finds you acceptable as a mate, no history of long term commitment on your part, no history of working out problems with even *one* person.
#3 your communication skills lack the qualities of a good leader. Hence the name calling, lack of clear goals and a basic outline on how to reach those goals.

My best advice is clean up your langauge and find a spouse. Surely there must be a women that would like to spend the rest of their life with you? Then you can have thoughts of being in a living arrangement with other adults.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

rickfrosty said:


> On the other hand, sharecropping did work to some extent, some cases more than others, no doubt, and we may see it become common again as our life here changes radically ?
> Thank you for your comments.


Worked out very well for the land owner, not nearly as well for the cropper or his family.

The perfect land is sustainable and defensible after you need sustainable or what is the point in defending it!

From what I am hearing this is marginally sustainable.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Can anyone come up with a plan (easily readable, please) that uses what Rick has available - and ends up with a group that could work in that place? (from what we know).


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## DryHeat (Nov 11, 2010)

As a legal and financial structure, some flavor of LLC (Limited Liability Corporation) might work. Filing the papers would make it necessary to detail issues such as who's contributing money or other assets, who's in charge of decisions, what rights and responsibilities of members or partners are. A common structure calls for designation/ election of a "manager" in whom huge powers can reside (hiring and firing of employees and subcontractors including lawyers and accountants). Normally voting powers are proportional to amounts of money or assets (like land and equipment, or even time) contributed to the overall structure. Issues like amending the original "operating agreement," selling all assets off and closing down, firing the main manager and hiring somebody new, etc, may be by simple majority vote of "shares" or asset contributions, by super-majority, or unanimous, or by a board of directors. Many, many demons lurking in details of such a corporate or partnership structure but like a corporation, an LLC protects an individual from liabilities beyond losses of contributed assets if the company gets sued, for example.

In my state, one major problem that was lost on me personally when I bought into such an investment back 15+ years ago was that as a "private" LLC, it would be flat-out *illegal*, against security investment laws, to advertise trying to sell a share if you decided to exit, *or* even to hire a real estate agent or stock broker to find a buyer. Had to be "word of mouth" and that raises the problem of trying to sell something to a friend if you've decided it's a disaster... A common provision is that the LLC is itself required to repay the share value on demand over some period of time, like seven years or ten years, with no interest.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

AngieM2 said:


> Can anyone come up with a plan (easily readable, please) that uses what Rick has available - and ends up with a group that could work in that place? (from what we know).


No Not unless rick happens onto about 50 Trained former Military People, 3 0r 4 People that have farmed for 5 + years,crop and animals and and 10 People who have watched every show of Dual Survival.:bored:


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

"What people say you cannot do, you try and find you can"-HD Thoreau.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Darntootin said:


> "What people say you cannot do, you try and find you can"-HD Thoreau.


Thank you man.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

I think the best thing would be to interveiw people who may be interested in this type of shared/intentional community and if he finds some come up with some type of contract. This way all parties are protected. Not many would be willing to leave what they already have to go to an unknown area and be, basically, under the control of an unknown person. Even with people I know I would want some type of contract laying out everything. I would want to be able to own part of the land, so if things don't work out I wouldn't be left with nothing. I would lay out in the contract what he is expected to do and be responsible for and what would be expected of me and whatever form of protection for all parties involved laid out. I understand wanting to surround yourself with like minded people, but there's so many legal uncertainties involved in what I percieve he's proposing. Those who join with him are basically trusting that he won't just kick them off the land after it's been built up etc. They would need protection for their investment, whether it's time or monetary.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

FreeRanger said:


> At the beginning of this thread you made it very clear this project is not going to be successful. I read into your post the following:
> 
> #1 you are not young, only a matter of time before your health becomes an issue, then you will WANT to be closer to a city.
> #2 you do not have a spouse, no woman finds you acceptable as a mate, no history of long term commitment on your part, no history of working out problems with even *one* person.
> ...


1. I will NOT want to be closer to a city ! The land in question is about 18 mi. from a very good hospital by a great town of 4000+ . As to my health, I believe that nearly extreme hard work will keep me younger longer, what do you think ?
2. What do you know of my history ? I lived w/one fine lady who is still a friend for 13 yrs., and was married to another for 10 who is also a friend, but who lives far away now.
#3 Didn't know 'Bubba' was name calling, I thought I restrained myself admirably, lol! As to many here, it is perhaps their hearing/concentration skills at fault, because I have written my posts fairly carefully, BUT as I have said, my o. post was just about considering whether to buy the land - how to manage a group retreat is not an easy subject & I have not any manifesto on such to grave in stone here. AND I have not heard any likely well-thought-out suggestions here - in post-shtf times committees & communes will not be successful, I AM pretty sure of that.
As for "cleaning up my language", again, what the 'heck' are you talking about - you nice fellow full of constructive critisism ! (there, how about that ?)


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

DryHeat said:


> As a legal and financial structure, some flavor of LLC (Limited Liability Corporation) might work. Filing the papers would make it necessary to detail issues such as who's contributing money or other assets, who's in charge of decisions, what rights and responsibilities of members or partners are. A common structure calls for designation/ election of a "manager" in whom huge powers can reside (hiring and firing of employees and subcontractors including lawyers and accountants). Normally voting powers are proportional to amounts of money or assets (like land and equipment, or even time) contributed to the overall structure. Issues like amending the original "operating agreement," selling all assets off and closing down, firing the main manager and hiring somebody new, etc, may be by simple majority vote of "shares" or asset contributions, by super-majority, or unanimous, or by a board of directors. Many, many demons lurking in details of such a corporate or partnership structure but like a corporation, an LLC protects an individual from liabilities beyond losses of contributed assets if the company gets sued, for example.
> 
> In my state, one major problem that was lost on me personally when I bought into such an investment back 15+ years ago was that as a "private" LLC, it would be flat-out *illegal*, against security investment laws, to advertise trying to sell a share if you decided to exit, *or* even to hire a real estate agent or stock broker to find a buyer. Had to be "word of mouth" and that raises the problem of trying to sell something to a friend if you've decided it's a disaster... A common provision is that the LLC is itself required to repay the share value on demand over some period of time, like seven years or ten years, with no interest.


Most constructive by far & merits consideration, thank you Dryheat .


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> No Not unless rick happens onto about 50 Trained former Military People, 3 0r 4 People that have farmed for 5 + years,crop and animals and and 10 People who have watched every show of Dual Survival.:bored:


So, in other words my friend, I should give up, and no one should attempt to build a retreat farm ?? 
That is, unless they are ready to move from family , friends, and other support structures such as earning connections, to west of the Mississippi ? (Where I personally think it may be LESS safe ?!)
Talking to you is like shovelling back the tide, no amount of information or reason can have any effect on you - you are like a fortress !!
Enjoy all-knowingness, it must be wonderfull ?


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## Smalltowngirl (Mar 28, 2010)

rickfrosty said:


> So, in other words my friend, I should give up, and no one should attempt to build a retreat farm ??
> That is, unless they are ready to move from family , friends, and other support structures such as earning connections, to west of the Mississippi ? (Where I personally think it may be LESS safe ?!)
> *Talking to you is like shovelling back the tide, no amount of information or reason can have any effect on you - you are like a fortress !!*
> Enjoy all-knowingness, it must be wonderfull ?


Pot meet kettle. :grin:


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Smalltowngirl said:


> Pot meet kettle. :grin:


Ha, ha, I AM a fortress (w/feelings ?).


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## Catalpa (Dec 18, 2011)

rickfrosty said:


> ...As to many here, it is perhaps their hearing/concentration skills at fault...


See, that right there is the problem. No matter how interesting or plausible, or even acceptable the rest of your post might be, there's always some sort of caveat that casts aspersions on others and spoils the whole effect. We don't read your posts carefully enough, we don't understand what you meant, we can't keep up with you, and so on. It's never your fault. And then you add insulting names. I've known too many guys with that sort of attitude, no thanks.


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

I don't know who's arguments the supremely defenseable one but seems like everyone is trying. Interesting thread I don't see how arguments fit in survival or prep part though.


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## FreeRanger (Jul 20, 2005)

rickfrosty said:


> 1. I will NOT want to be closer to a city ! The land in question is about 18 mi. from a very good hospital by a great town of 4000+ . As to my health, I believe that nearly extreme hard work will keep me younger longer, what do you think ? * I don't think extreme hard work will keep you younger longer. Diet and exercise together might but I have learned first hand there are variables that you just can't avoid that can shut you down pretty quick.* _*Also you said there was only 410 people nearby, now there is a city of 4,000 18 miles away. That is VERY close by in my mind. You know they can see you are building a "fort" by just using Google maps or (even the tax maps in my area). Have you ever tried looking at your place on one of those sites. I was was out sunbathing in the nude on the deck on the right day you would see me! Not that I am doing that.*_
> 2. What do you know of my history ? I lived w/one fine lady who is still a friend for 13 yrs., and was married to another for 10 who is also a friend, but who lives far away now. *My point is still valid, you are not currently with either, hence not a long time. You lived with her but she's not living with you, can you see the difference?*
> #3 Didn't know 'Bubba' was name calling, I thought I restrained myself admirably, lol! As to many here, it is perhaps their hearing/concentration skills at fault, because I have written my posts fairly carefully, BUT as I have said, my o. post was just about considering whether to buy the land - how to manage a group retreat is not an easy subject & I have not any manifesto on such to grave in stone here. AND I have not heard any likely well-thought-out suggestions here - in post-shtf times committees & communes will not be successful, I AM pretty sure of that.
> As for "cleaning up my language", again, what the 'heck' are you talking about - you nice fellow full of constructive critisism ! (there, how about that ?)


Bubba is name calling but you ended with the "nice fellow" part because I am trying to help you see the flaws in the plan. I have made many suggestions LOL don't forget I said raise turkeys!

We, the respondents, don't need to provide well-thought-out suggestions. We are not planning on doing what you have proposed. So yes we can pick and choose which components to "adjust" in the plan. Don't think this thread isn't getting others to rethink their plans. I am sure a few are, while most are not.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Catalpa said:


> See, that right there is the problem. No matter how interesting or plausible, or even acceptable the rest of your post might be, there's always some sort of caveat that casts aspersions on others and spoils the whole effect. We don't read your posts carefully enough, we don't understand what you meant, we can't keep up with you, and so on. It's never your fault. And then you add insulting names. I've known too many guys with that sort of attitude, no thanks.


That was in response to an insult, is it best just to not respond to them ?
It has been clear in many of y'all's responses to my posts that they hadn't been digested (if fully read), what can I say?
I now understand why many people do not post - y'all jump on a bandwagon to bash anyone who seriously poses an idea w/almost no one suggesting anything relevant or helpful.
Many of the suggestions sound good in a 'conventional wisdom' way, but are not pragmatic in a post shtf time - which is the premise of a defensible retreat/farm. Communes & committees will NOT work .
Also, the beauty of the Large piece of land was just that, what would it be worth once divided up in several parcels whose owners decided to all go in different directions ?
And then there's the guy (oh, can't say 'Dude' ?) who spews incorrect details/statistics and can not be corrected ? 
Then someone suggests I find a mate - well, let's see, wasn't that part of the main thrust of the OP ?
It's like shovelling poop in a chicken factory in here - ya ain't never gonna get ahead !! 
"*Friendly help & neighborly advice"*my aching butt !!??
W/friends like you, who needs enemas ?


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

Another Sale down the drain I guess.


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## FreeRanger (Jul 20, 2005)

rickfrosty said:


> That was in response to an insult, is it best just to not respond to them ?
> It has been clear in many of y'all's responses to my posts that they hadn't been digested (if fully read), what can I say?
> I now understand why many people do not post - y'all jump on a bandwagon to bash anyone who seriously poses an idea w/almost no one suggesting anything relevant or helpful.
> Many of the suggestions sound good in a 'conventional wisdom' way, but are not pragmatic in a post shtf time - which is the premise of a defensible retreat/farm. Communes & committees will NOT work .
> ...


Wait a minute Rick! What's wrong with saying keep working on the mate issue first? We are "helping" you form the "plan." I wouldn't move anywhere without my spouse and I wouldn't move in with your group if you didn't have your own spouse! Just saying....this is friendly & neighborly advice.

I am not a Dude or a Bubba (or especially in the South a BOY) or for that matter not y'all. You can address my post using any of the following; 
Sir, FreeRanger, FR, *Mr. FreeRanger,* *fellow homesteader* (just joking about the last two). I am OK with "guy" since I am male. LOL. Keep a smile on your face Rick! This is not life or death decisions for most homesteaders. Remember most post have been saying they don't live in fear so don't worry about "defensive" positions.

So we have offered, I think pretty kindly that you use appropriate language in your post. You are trying to recruit like minded people. Good wisdom is good wisdom no matter how "conventional" it might be. In times of SHTF, being pragmatic might not be desired.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Rick - stop with the put downs.
NOW!

You do not want to hear anything that does not fit into your jell-o solid plan for the big land.

I was going to try to go through your posts to gather facts in an outline mode to present and see what you have to work with - but Not Now. 

I was going to point out there is a family in Country Families loosing their home and suggesting you might find people such as that that would be happy to have a place to stay and work, for a home - but you'd probably tell me what's wrong with that.

We have read, and we do understand completely.

You want a that big piece of land.
You want to run the show, and if it appeals to you, you say you'll listen to others. (this thread shows otherwise).
you profess how secure due to the only 410 people "town" nearby. And some mention of 4000 within 18 miles. 18 miles is NOTHING if zombies are needy enough. And by 18 miles, the STRONG AND MOTIVATED Zombies are going to be what you are fighting off - they probably are pretty survival clever by getting there and not getting killed by others such as yourself and compound, or other zombies.

No one has insulted you - until you decided to make snide comments about questions and advice you have received and did not respond in a thoughtful manner of having "understood " what they have offered as help and helpful advice.

And as for using the motto of this site to make an insult - how dare you! this has been help and friendly until you turn it otherwise. 

Now this thread has a lot of learning in it for others, that's why it's stayed. The biggest education component of this thread - what NOT TO DO, if wanting to get someone interested in going into a project with me, you, themselves.

IF you want this to happen you need to learn a few skills of a good salesman - and the first one is alway be polite and answer in a decent tone even if you don't agree. And make no mistake the OP of this thread and every post you've made has been a poorly executed sales pitch.

And we do understand, I'm wondering if you do.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

And there is still time to think and DISCUSS issues that have been brought up and talk of real problem solving.

but only you can change this thread to a more helpful one to yourself

To those that have tried to be helpful. Thank you.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> Another Sale down the drain I guess.


Again, I don't know what you're talking about ? Sale ?
I will probably still buy the land, just maybe find a partner up front to split land up the middle, will be showing it in June to likely buyers who have looked at retreat-type property w/me before.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

AngieM2 said:


> Rick - stop with the put downs.
> NOW!
> 
> You do not want to hear anything that does not fit into your jell-o solid plan for the big land.
> ...


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Rick - I wish you much luck. I think you may need it.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

rickfrosty said:


> AngieM2 said:
> 
> 
> > Rick - stop with the put downs.
> ...


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

AngieM2 said:


> Rick - I wish you much luck. I think you may need it.


Sounds like he needs to learn some manners too. :fussin:


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

All - we tried, and in his way, he tried. The communication is not happening. Guess this is just one to chalk up to a learning experience.


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## Glacialtill (Aug 16, 2010)

Holy mackerel. 

Just read this whole thing.

I love and read this survival forum mostly out of curiosity. And this thread is indeed very curious.

But, I don't get this. Go live on a 'supremely defensible' mountain and then what? Wait for American society to collapse? Shoot your neighbors because they're hungry and the zombies are coming? In that case, why not give the neighbors a nice bowl of stone cut oats, and tell them to get some sleep in that bunk house and keep an eye out.

Please.

I'm all for the planning and preparedness and whatnot. And I live in a town. Maybe that makes me an idiot. Maybe I should go hide on a mountain. But, you know what? I know and really like my neighbors. And if disaster strikes I will help them. And they would help me. We do it all the time now. We like each other. It's called community. It's an inherent American value.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

The problem with trying to feed everyone that is in need, is that you can't! Nnd if you allow them in then you open yourself up to loosing all you have. 
People that are scared and starving will overwhelm you if given that chance.

Be charitable but be charitable a distance from your stores.

But then again you do need to have something to defend. And stocking supplies will only last so long. You are going to have to have sustainable food supplies.

Rick has some good ideas but he seems to lack the leadership skills to lead people in easy times never mind difficult times and surely lacks the communicative skills to sell it.

I really don't mean to slam but if your talking to people that have the collective skills of this group you better have an open mind and expect strong wills to come out because most of the people you are seeking are going to be strong willed with the strong opinions to go with it.

Good luck in your endeavors.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

DryHeat said:


> As a legal and financial structure, some flavor of LLC (Limited Liability Corporation) might work. Filing the papers would make it necessary to detail issues such as who's contributing money or other assets, who's in charge of decisions, what rights and responsibilities of members or partners are. A common structure calls for designation/ election of a "manager" in whom huge powers can reside (hiring and firing of employees and subcontractors including lawyers and accountants). Normally voting powers are proportional to amounts of money or assets (like land and equipment, or even time) contributed to the overall structure. Issues like amending the original "operating agreement," selling all assets off and closing down, firing the main manager and hiring somebody new, etc, may be by simple majority vote of "shares" or asset contributions, by super-majority, or unanimous, or by a board of directors. Many, many demons lurking in details of such a corporate or partnership structure but like a corporation, an LLC protects an individual from liabilities beyond losses of contributed assets if the company gets sued, for example.
> 
> In my state, one major problem that was lost on me personally when I bought into such an investment back 15+ years ago was that as a "private" LLC, it would be flat-out *illegal*, against security investment laws, to advertise trying to sell a share if you decided to exit, *or* even to hire a real estate agent or stock broker to find a buyer. Had to be "word of mouth" and that raises the problem of trying to sell something to a friend if you've decided it's a disaster... A common provision is that the LLC is itself required to repay the share value on demand over some period of time, like seven years or ten years, with no interest.


Way too busy this time of year to try to keep shovelling back the non-productive comments, so as far as my participation is concerned, this is over.


This was the most valuable response, even going into some of the pros & cons of the LLC . It made me recall that I have a small book on LLC's that I hadn't taken the time to read.
But most of the responses showed the shortcomings of a venue like this for arriving at any workable solutions .
I tried to lay out fairly fully the features of a remarkable piece of land which would sustain a few people. Saying why it was so uniquely defensible in a forested state of few people & fewer roads.
Then I made some references to how it could be developed and the amount of work required because this is not old farm land all laying open to attack along a road.
I made a proposal about how the land, people & decisions might be managed and said why I thought that our cherished democracy & committees might not work . Of course the plans were not complete down to the crossed t's & dotted i's as I was just considering mostly whether to even stick my neck out to buy the land .
Like many I don't wish to move thousands of miles away (to what I personally consider may be LESS safe areas) west of the Mississip, so I found a property that most would not be interested in for conventional real estate development purposes (so it's affordable) but would lend itself to the defense of a secluded farm.

I should never have wasted the time of laying this thing open to what amounts to a bunch of jackals who, rather than taking time to absorb the OP for what it was & then factor in my later responses, just seem to feed off each other's blood-lust, taking your opinions off what slipshod assumptions your pack-mates have posted. 
Even the moderator using misunderstood facts from my posts in her hurry to spank me for daring to be a little different from the herd here.
If I say that from the last census (showing population decreasing) there are 410 people in an entire township, that is a quite large area - not like there are 410 people in a village next door who will all band together & try to loot proposed secret farm (which they should not even know about, if our group has observed proper OPSEC policy). 
I should have known better - you are mostly interested in searching out any way to criticise rather than trying to absorb the posts w/an open mind .
Some of those criticisms were so absurd that I was astonished, but I shouldn't have been . Constructive criticism is something else and I suppose some of you were attempting that in your heavy-handed way, but there is the old adage of 'if you don't have anything good to say - don't say anything !' .
I guess the point of taking the time to try again to carefully write to you is to say that, given your astute judgements of my project & person, my leadership qualities, and even my ability to write (do you people read your own posts here ??), I guess I should lay down & let what's coming wash over me ? I should throw up my hands & give up any positive effort taking such extreme work in an effort to survive & take a few stalwart folks with me . 
Fortunately, seeing how you think & write, I do not place too much weight with your criticisms .
I see why hermits choose to slowly become hermits. Distaste for the pack mentality is one reason.


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## Murramarang (Dec 18, 2011)

I moved to Maine and bought a place - its a wonderful part of the world (safe on many levels).

One of my motivations was to be the king of my own domain (as much as state, county and town laws allow me)...

So this idea - while I see tons of merits if we were in some kind of war - just reeks of being part of someone else's kingdom.

That's the only fail point i see...the rest of the concept is very sound.

Good luck Rick.....I hope you can live you dream.


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