# Plow vs tiller, another age old question...



## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

I have only ever tilled by plots with a 3 pt rototiller. Today I made an impulse purchase and bought a two bottom plow. Did I waste my money, since the tiller seemed to always do the job?

The thing is, when I till over fresh ground I feel like I am really beating the heck out of it. I end up hitting rocks, jumping the tiller and busting tines. I've been wondering if it might be wiser to plow, at least the first pass, then have an easier time tilling after. Also I have heard that repeated tilling can lead to soil erosion by 'beating' the soil aggregate sizes smaller and smaller. What are your thoughts?


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

plowing or tilling are going to increase erosion. as far as the rocks I throw mine out every year and have finally gotten a fairly rock free garden space.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Consider tiller vs. plow vs. spader. Attributes of a spader:

Increases aeration - adds oxygen
Improves drainage & increases water retention
Eliminates compaction - creates a healthy soil structure
Deep soil cultivation -up to 12 inches - fractures hardpan
Works amendments & green manure deep into soil structure
Promotes root development
Primary & Secondary Tillage in a Single Pass


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I think a lot depends on the soil you are tilling/plowing and how large the plot is. I have sandy soil so my tiller can lightly till the surface of my prepared garden and I'm good to go. It's 7000 sq ft so it's a bit too much for a shovel and not practical for me to mulch the entire thing heavily. However, if I had clay soil and I owned a plow, I might go that route the first year. Plow, let it sit, then till in a bunch of straw or whatever would help break up the clay. But if I were only working with 1000 sq ft, plow wouldn't be worth it.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

If your tiller finds the rocks, The plow will also. Once you bend the points on a plow share. There EXPENSIVE to replace, unless youve got a modern plow with throw away shares. Than, it dosent much matter IF you have a small to medium tractor so that you dont bend the frame,


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I have clay soil with lots of sod. It is difficult to plow. I can't plow when it it too wet, as it dries into rock hard clumps. I can't plow when it is too dry, like plowing blacktop. When the moisture is jst right, plowing goes well. But then it takes several passes with a disc to level it out.
The tiller uses more fuel, but in two passes it is ready to plant. This unit is 13 feet wide and takes between 120 to 200 horsepower.


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

Guess I shouldn't have bought it. Jeez, never buy without thinking about it, its always a mistake!


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## greengrow (Jul 3, 2011)

Darntootin said:


> Guess I shouldn't have bought it. Jeez, never buy without thinking about it, its always a mistake!


The plow is much much better than the tiller. Tillers are very very bad for soil structure. 

Plow the soil when it is not too wet or to dry. Best if you can tow a press or roll behind the plow to help create the seed bed.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

greengrow said:


> The plow is much much better than the tiller. Tillers are very very bad for soil structure.
> 
> Plow the soil when it is not too wet or to dry. Best if you can tow a press or roll behind the plow to help create the seed bed.


I can't rototill when the clay soil is too wet. A press wheel behind a plow on sod will not create a seed bed.
If you look closely at the photos, you can see the mixture of organic maatter and soil. 

Tillers CAN be bad for soil structure. This field had not been worked up for 50 years or more. In heavy clay, with lots of sod, it would take all summer to get a good level seed bed after plowing. It is common to fall plow and then start discing in the spring. It works, letting the freeze/thaw cycles break up the plowed clumps, but it permits a lot of erosion when the spring thaw runs the soil into the nearest creek.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

I would think your plan was good. I live in Stone County, and boy, did they name this place right! Our little 2800 sf garden has yielded at least 30 wheelbarrows of rock over the first 5 years we moved here. Also, I went through 2 sets of tines.

If we were to greatly increase the size, I'd be out looking for a plow. At least I could get some of the rocks out before I tilled. Pushing a wheelbarrow, picking up rocks, that's what wives are for isn't it? Now, driving a tractor is man's work.


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## greengrow (Jul 3, 2011)

Haypoint by working the soil like you are you are destroying soil structure and will increase the power required to work it. 

Use a plow and press, 5mph. Then cultivate and seed second pass. This is how it is done on the farm I grew up on and you could make bricks from the clay. They used to do this.

The other option is spray and then direct seed. This is even better for the soil.

In organic situations there is the roller to kill off the rye type of cover crop.

Powered cultivators are bad for the soil, and are only good for fuel companies and tiller makers.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Well i am a fan of the plow. Especially if you have cover crop. If you were close by I would have you plow my garden and till it later.
I remember when we would fall plow and spring plow. the fall plowed ground always worked better and looked better. Seemed to hold the moisture better. And I think it grew better we always rotated and fallow ground got clover for a year Red and sweet.\
Spring plowed was always hard and clunky. . I know it goes against all the modern green stuff. But I spent lots a years plowing ground as a kid and its was my observatons


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

we plow and till our garden has lots of organic matter and judging by looking at it yesterday the worms are quite plentiful.

Why on earth would you want to drag a something that presses after the plow? After the planter sure


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

greengrow said:


> Haypoint by working the soil like you are you are destroying soil structure and will increase the power required to work it.
> 
> Use a plow and press, 5mph. Then cultivate and seed second pass. This is how it is done on the farm I grew up on and you could make bricks from the clay. They used to do this.
> 
> ...


Hundreds of soil types require openmindedness. 

With plowing and discing, I have to make so many passes, the soil is compressed. Most of what I till goes into hay fields and this is my only chance to get a level field. 

You cannot cultivate this soil on a second pass. The clay will rip the tines of the cultivator off.

Here is a plowed field. Remember, this hasn't been turned in many years. I doubt pulling a roller behind this would help much.


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

That looks like some heavy mud! Was that a fall plow, and then you disk or tilled in spring?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Hey folks go back and look at my spader post. Look at the picture. Those aren't tines. *A spader preserves soil structure, can take down and incorporate any cover crop in one pass and can be used when other forms of tillage can not.* A spader works exactly like pushing a shovel into the ground and pulling it back.

A spader uses spades/shovels attached to a crankshaft so they go up and down and back just like shoveling.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

If you plow, you have to do something afterwards to break the clods. Disk, cultipacker, etc.

When I plow with my horses, my aim is to cover all the trash to kill it. Then I disk. Sometimes the same day, depending on the weather. If I wait too long the plowed furrows become very cement-like in the areas of heavy clay and it is a rough ride on that disk.

Depending on what my plans are for that area, I'll probably chain harrow later. If I'm going to plant parsnips or carrots I might also rototill to make the soil more fine.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Darntootin said:


> That looks like some heavy mud! Was that a fall plow, and then you disk or tilled in spring?


That is fall plowing. I hate it. Leaves the soil open to erosion. When it is dryer, it breaks into clods. I can disc it 5 or 6 times in the spring, after it dries up. Then plant. If we get a rainy spell before I get done discing, it can get too late to plant.

If I wait until July and rototill it twice, seed to buckwheat, clover and timothy, I can get hay the next year. Less erosion, level fields and less compaction.

Not many farmers plowing any more. But not many putting in hay fields either.

Just look at the two photos and figure it out for yourself. This is the same field, different times of the year, different methods of tillage. The electric poles at the back of one photo is also shown in the other. BTW, that's Canada way off in the background.


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## greengrow (Jul 3, 2011)

haypoint said:


> That is fall plowing. I hate it. Leaves the soil open to erosion. When it is dryer, it breaks into clods. I can disc it 5 or 6 times in the spring, after it dries up. Then plant. If we get a rainy spell before I get done discing, it can get too late to plant.
> 
> If I wait until July and rototill it twice, seed to buckwheat, clover and timothy, I can get hay the next year. Less erosion, level fields and less compaction.
> 
> ...


Ok Haypoint, you have some lovely ground  yep we had those issues 20 years ago, but at the time some locals were using higher hp tractors. The only way to use the hp was to go faster with the plow. Go faster in good conditions the soil goes over faster, breaks up better, the press then breaks it up more. Takes a lot of the work out of it. 

Instead of running at 3 to 4 mph run at 5 plus. 
















This is summer plowing heavy clay in mid summer, to plant crop into. Straight onto the plow with a cultivator type drill for wheat, over disc dragging harrows first for finer seed.

Sorry for pic quality


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## greengrow (Jul 3, 2011)

Darren said:


> Hey folks go back and look at my spader post. Look at the picture. Those aren't tines. *A spader preserves soil structure, can take down and incorporate any cover crop in one pass and can be used when other forms of tillage can not.* A spader works exactly like pushing a shovel into the ground and pulling it back.
> 
> A spader uses spades/shovels attached to a crankshaft so they go up and down and back just like shoveling.


Used one, they can do a good job, there are a lot of parts however.


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## SkizzlePig (May 14, 2006)

Sorry ... not trying to hi-jack the thread. I hope this is pertinent ...

We'll be doing green manure on our fallow garden area. I see that you're not supposed to till yearly to prevent erosion, but you have to till under the green manure, don't you?

Just a light till or does the presence of the organic material counteract the erosion.


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## greengrow (Jul 3, 2011)

Unlikely Farmer said:


> Sorry ... not trying to hi-jack the thread. I hope this is pertinent ...
> 
> We'll be doing green manure on our fallow garden area. I see that you're not supposed to till yearly to prevent erosion, but you have to till under the green manure, don't you?
> 
> Just a light till or does the presence of the organic material counteract the erosion.


No you do not have to, could kill chemically and plant through it, or chop up with a bush hog, then disc in.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Part of using a plow is taking the time to set it up correctly to run properly and even to chopping cover so it can do the job. having the right plow helps too! Not all ploughs are sod busters, if you're using a plow meant for corn ground well it is going to have a tough time flipping sod. Adding things like landslides really makes a difference in clay loam or it did on ours. If the sod is turned so it lays consistently and smoothly on the previous pass your discing time is cut down a lot! Ploughing dry ground is chunky ploughing too wet is messy. Moist soil helps though.

Oh I wish I had a roll over plough and press wheels like Greengrow!!! Never used skimmers though, they don't look rock friendly.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

You can see the sa mmew thing on U TUBE back in the 30s, a guys plowing with a wide front end IHC and 3 bottom plow and pulling one section of rollar packer behind the plow.


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## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

I think I have tiller envy. Part of the reason we plow is to expose insects and grubs to freezing weather (we dont spray insecticides or herbicides) and to break up the hard pack soil we have and expose rocks. We pick rocks every year after plowing and make corner posts out of them (make a circle of field fencing and dump the rocks in and anchor the whole mess with a couple old bent T-Posts) before we use the 3pt tiller. We find that using the tiller greatly increases our ability to incorporate organic matter into the soil and our soil where we have our truck garden is now developing in to rich fertile loam from the virtual gravel we started with.

For the hay fields we lime, disk and fertilize but so far have resisted broad leaf herbicides (though I must admit its tempting at times). I have a single bottom plow and a middle buster but am looking for a 2 bottom plow as we speak....I think you made a good useful purchase.


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## VaFarmer (Mar 2, 2011)

I've prepped many areas and fields for 30yrs with a Ford 14" 2 bottom kick blade plow, Once it's set right will go the 12 to 14" down and turns the cover crop very well. I try to plow around late Jan to Feb and let cover crop decompose for a couple of months then 1 trip over the area with 3 pt tiller and make excellant prep, when planting potatoes don't even need a shovel, just stick your hand in and drop in spud, the soil is incredable loose and the plow breaks up the hard pan. With just tilling only breaks up top 5" soil, not enough for carrots and a lot of rot crops. Spuds love the plow & till method. So do the earth worms. I have a 14" deep top soil mix in my regular garden areas from turning and mixing over the yrs. I think you'll see an inprovement in airation and depth of organic matter.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Most of the soil around here is silt over clay. Many farmers have switched to chisel plow/disk/drag combination with some down to 2' deep. Those who do that also bale their corn stalks so that there isn't a lot of surface litter to interfer with grain drills or planters. Those who leave the stalks are either plowing or go over it with a flail mower. The farmer which I'm associated with now uses either chisel or moldboard plows depending upon what is best for a particular crop. Yesterday he started with the trio combination for 40 acres of seed oats where corn was last year. But, he'd also done the same thing last fall without sufficiently breaking up the stalks. He planted today with a drill with coulters to cut through any litter. In hindsight, I think that plowing would have been better for that field. 

When he got done with preparing that field he switched to a plow for my 37x190, 7,000 square feet garden which was covered with about 6" of leaves. My instructions were to set the plow as deep as it would go. Resulted in a dead furrow almost a foot deep along one edge but every one of those leaves are buried. At the highest point, even brought up a thin layer of clay which had not seen daylight in 10,000 years. No ordinary tiller can do that.

Martin


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Soil and it's preparation is different everywhere. Farming, we moldboard plowed everything here, fall for grass seed and wheat, spring for row crops. Plowing the same depth every year causes hardpan. Plowing when the soil is too wet does too. So does disking. We only disk in the fall to cut up residue before plowing. We deep ripped or subsoiled every 4th year. A good strong field cultivator will areate and loosen soil. A garden can be different depending on soil. We spring plow here to bury the cover crop. Fall plow on flat ground to leave open, rains break it down over winter and a good 3pt. S-tine cultivator and a roller is all that is needed to make a seed bed. We never rototill, causes a crust on top that has to be broken up so seeds can emerge. Hard to get soil dry enough in the spring unless it is opened up and left to dry. Then build seedbed when moisture is right. Best tool is a S-tine cultivator or what we call a rollerharrow, combination of S-tines and sprocket roller....James


These work well here to build a seedbed. Come in 5' to 60' models, 3 pt and drawbar pull.

Buckeye Tractor Online Catalog Page 16-03 Toolbar Cultivators


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

In the above picture, Hes not useing a rollar packer, but a rotary hoe, which would be better as it dosent pack the soil IF your not going to be planting in a week or 2. Weeds have a chance to get going in the packed earth. BUT, If your going to be planting in a day or 2 a packer might be alright, IF you ran a rotary hoe over the field immeadiatly after planting. I think a packer following the plow is better if your going to be sowing something. When I had an F-30 I hitched the disc in front of the packer, and the 30 with swinging drawbar could make the turns. Now, I dont think my H has the power, and my CC Case has narrow tires and has a hard time turning as its swinging drawbar dosent swing that much.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

Ozarks Tom said:


> ... Pushing a wheelbarrow, picking up rocks, that's what wives are for isn't it? Now, driving a tractor is man's work.


I'm guessing your wife doesn't read this site, right?


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

one advantage and this some what is soil types,

is if one deep plows, you pull up nutriments that have in some cases escaped a shallow rooted plant, and you bury seeds that could cause problems as a tiller or disk is just weed seed planter, 

in our sand the silts and clays work there way down though the soil and after a number of years all that is on top is some thing similar to a beach sand, and plowing has helped pull many of those finds and nutrients back up into the the top layers of the soils,

I live in a location where green manures are not overly practical as it will use up all your moisture for the cover crop and none left for the crop crop, 

but a lot depends on the soil and the location, and the desired end results,


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

Darntootin said:


> Guess I shouldn't have bought it. Jeez, never buy without thinking about it, its always a mistake!


If it was bought new take it back, if used call and discuss!


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

FarmBoyBill said:


> In the above picture, Hes not useing a rollar packer, but a rotary hoe, which would be better as it dosent pack the soil IF your not going to be planting in a week or 2. Weeds have a chance to get going in the packed earth. BUT, If your going to be planting in a day or 2 a packer might be alright, IF you ran a rotary hoe over the field immeadiatly after planting. I think a packer following the plow is better if your going to be sowing something. When I had an F-30 I hitched the disc in front of the packer, and the 30 with swinging drawbar could make the turns. Now, I dont think my H has the power, and my CC Case has narrow tires and has a hard time turning as its swinging drawbar dosent swing that much.


Bill, here is a video of what he was using, just a little bigger and a different hitch. It is called a plow packer, breaks up the furrows. We pull a rollerharrow in front of a grain drill when we seed and all is done in 2 passes....James

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMs8JU0-mw0]Oregon Plowing - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5nj6g8dEtQ]Planting grain at Swore Farms - YouTube[/ame]


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

When I can afford it I'm getting a Pioneer plow with the Kverneland bottoms. They roll the sod over sooooo sweet. From the point to the end of the bottom is about 3 feet long.
Pioneer Equipment Plows - Sulky, Gang, Walking and More


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## Tobster (Feb 24, 2009)

haypoint said:


> When I can afford it I'm getting a Pioneer plow with the Kverneland bottoms. They roll the sod over sooooo sweet. From the point to the end of the bottom is about 3 feet long.
> Pioneer Equipment Plows - Sulky, Gang, Walking and More


Are you also saving up $$$$$ to buy the plow and the horses to pull that plow?

I once saw a couple of ole boys pulling a similar looking plow with an old beat up Toyota pickup. To their credit, they were getting the job done.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Tobster said:


> Are you also saving up $$$$$ to buy the plow and the horses to pull that plow?
> 
> I once saw a couple of ole boys pulling a similar looking plow with an old beat up Toyota pickup. To their credit, they were getting the job done.


I've got the work horses, but those Kverneland bottoms are pricy. I have a 3 point, 3 bottom Kvernland that is about worn out, but the replacement parts are really costly.

By the way, in that clay soil that I've shown here, it takes 85 horsepower 4 wheel drive to manage a properly adjusted 3 bottom 14 " plow. I've been using a 180 horse tractor to pull a 4 bottom, because I can keep my speed up.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Clay can be a real pain to till thats for sure.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

The KVs are quite nice. I wouldn't kick one out of my shed.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Darntootin said:


> I have only ever tilled by plots with a 3 pt rototiller. Today I made an impulse purchase and bought a two bottom plow. Did I waste my money, since the tiller seemed to always do the job?
> 
> The thing is, when I till over fresh ground I feel like I am really beating the heck out of it. I end up hitting rocks, jumping the tiller and busting tines. I've been wondering if it might be wiser to plow, at least the first pass, then have an easier time tilling after. Also I have heard that repeated tilling can lead to soil erosion by 'beating' the soil aggregate sizes smaller and smaller. What are your thoughts?


There are really too many variables to give a simple one or the other answer. But I do have one serious thought that you may or may not have considered: with the plow you bought, is there either a plow trip release or a breakaway device at the drawbar to make sure you don't turn your tractor over when you hit a rock? If you haven't used a plow before, it is something to look at.

geo


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## greengrow (Jul 3, 2011)

haypoint said:


> I've got the work horses, but those Kverneland bottoms are pricy. I have a 3 point, 3 bottom Kvernland that is about worn out, but the replacement parts are really costly.
> 
> By the way, in that clay soil that I've shown here, it takes 85 horsepower 4 wheel drive to manage a properly adjusted 3 bottom 14 " plow. I've been using a 180 horse tractor to pull a 4 bottom, because I can keep my speed up.


We used to be 90 hp with 4 bottom 12 inch, added the press and 10 hp, then more hp to increase speed, now with better soil structure due to much less working 150hp pulls 5 bottoms at 14 to 18inch.

haypoint you could look at a furrow splitter
www.kvernelandgroup.com/irj/go/km/.../kk740908-en-001.pdf


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

Had to resurrect this thread to give an update. I have now officially tried the 2 bottom plow and I could not be happier. I would say that for rough ground, the plow wins hands down. After plowing I would till for a finish.

The plow definitely allows me to work new, rough ground with much more ease and speed. The tiller is great for chopping up extra grass, sod and clods. Also I would till in manure, organic matter and so forth. But for the initial soil cultivation...plow wins hands down.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Darntootin said:


> Guess I shouldn't have bought it. Jeez, never buy without thinking about it, its always a mistake!


I'd vote for plowing ground, that has never been tilled, for the reasons you stated. It will need tilled afterwards anyway, to smooth out.

After the first time, the tiller will get the job done just fine, IMO.


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## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

I am kind of glad you came back to this. We do the same thing, we plow, pick rocks, then till with a 3 pt tiller and each year it gets better. I still have tiller envy over Haypoints tiller though...dang......


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

My ground has plenty of big rocks which would beat the tiller to a pulp every time. The plow just pushed them right up to the surface where I can pick them out. This plow has definitely moved the homestead to a new level.

With the tiller, I always felt like I was doing something I shouldn't be doing. When that thing would jump and slam after hitting a rock I was sure I was breaking something ( I did break several tines ). Its definitely built for lighter work, not breaking rough ground.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Here is a photo of another rototiller I bought. Like the other one, the gears in the gearbox are able to change the speed of the blades. Under that cover on the end are three huge gears, over two inches wide. No chain drive for me. It is about 8 feet wide.


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

When I was a kid, we had a turnplow, a plow that was called a potato plow because it made hills, and we had a heavy duty harrow. The tines on the harrow were a good eight inches, I am trying to think. And I think it could be flipped over. I was a kid and a girl, this was not my work. After plowing, the ground was harrowed, which broke up the clumps and made the ground smooth, sort of like raking. Some farmers had a heavy roll with points sticking out,that was dragged over the ground after seeding. for one thing, we had very few weeds. The plow turned things under. And we had lots of worms. 
I looked at TSC for a harrow. That stuff is just way too wimpy. DH has a yanmar tractor and pull behind tiller. He has to go over a hundred times it seems, weeds just do not get turned under. I think I would prefer a plow and harrow.


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## ronbre (Apr 26, 2009)

I own 3 nice tillers which I never use...I switched to no till gardening a long time ago..really should sell those tillers


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I have a roller packer as you describe Tab. It has a rollar wheel, then a spike wheel. Its a 3 section. Ive pulled it behind my disc several times. Saw an OLD vid on U TUBES under antique tractors plowing. This guy was plowing BIG brush under with a IH 15-30 I think and a 3 borttom plow, and was pulling one section like mine behind and to the R side of the plow busting clods as he went.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Darren said:


> Consider tiller vs. plow vs. spader. Attributes of a spader:
> 
> Increases aeration - adds oxygen
> Improves drainage & increases water retention
> ...


 I saw a used one of these today. Except it was about 15 feet wide. sure looked like it would dig deeply. Never saw one in action.


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