# Thinking about a new rifle



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Been planning on picking up a new rifle this year. I've kind of decided on either a .308 or a 7mm-08. It would primarily be used for target shooting and Deer hunting. Possibly guarding the home from Islamic radicals. The .308 is a great round but I have been hearing real good things about the 7mm-08. any input would be appreciated.


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

The .308 is a standard with wide ammo availability. It helps that the battle rifles are also in that caliber. A 20 or 30 round magazine loaded with .308 is a thing of beauty. Having that many rounds to rip off works real good to get trespassers attention. I had a couple that probably did a personal best getting off the property. They were  and gittin as fast as they could when I emptied that magazine. Reloading another 20 takes virtually no time at all.

My vote goes to the .308.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

after all your work on 243 I think 7mm-08 would be the place for you to go , the ballistics of high bc and heavy for bore bullets are there with a good selection 

I figure almost every round you shoot will be a hand load 

at around 300 yards the 7mm-08 overtakes the 308 for energy because of the savings in energy lost to drag


----------



## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

JJ Grandits said:


> Been planning on picking up a new rifle this year. I've kind of decided on either a .308 or a 7mm-08. *It would primarily be used for target shooting and Deer hunting. Possibly guarding the home from Islamic radicals.* The .308 is a great round but I have been hearing real good things about the 7mm-08. any input would be appreciated.


You have quite the dilemma there!!! 

When used for hunting deer I think that you would want a round that will provide a quick, clean and humane kill so that the deer does not suffer.

When used against Islamic radicals, well, maybe not so much... 

TRellis


----------



## bigjon (Oct 2, 2013)

hmmm,i wanted a new rifle as well.went to dick's purchased a Remington 770 with scope pkg in .308.shoots great/accurate-feels cheaply made.even with deburring and lube-bolt does not feel smooth.that being said? I've traded ammo bk and forth while target shooting-145grain up to 180 grain-steel jacket then brass-no difference in accuracy-fantastic! with a mail in rebate-it was $249


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I pretty much decided on the Marlin x7 or the Weatherby vanguard 2. Letting quality be the judge I figure those are two excellent rifles in my price range. Remington discontinued the x7 last year but they are still available. Personally I think that is disgusting. It is an outstanding rifle at a budget price. My .243 embarrasses other guns on the range that cost several times as much. The Weatherby is about as far out as my budget goes but it has some excellent reviews and should be an outstanding rifle.
I don't worry about capacity that much. Always been a one shot kill kind of guy. If I need to my "how ya doin'" tool is a pump gun loaded with #4 buckshot.
Anyways I'm still debating but the 7mm has risen a little higher in the standings.


----------



## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

hmmmm,,how about a win 70 Super deluxe in the famous, accuracy round .280?!. only 500 build .....we're raffling one for the 4-H club.....sorry got to try....


----------



## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

JJ Grandits said:


> If I need to my "how ya doin'" tool is a pump gun loaded with #4 buckshot.


LOL...

I like that...

Nothing says "You are in the wrong place at the wrong time, sonny!" quite like #4 buckshot.

TRellis


----------



## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

The .308 has more commercial ammo available, but the 7mm-08 has a reputation of being easier on the shoulder.

Was looking at a Weatherby Vanguard in .270 that a co-worker was selling. Fine rifle. Don't know your budget, but a Tikka T3 is on my wish list.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Tikka T3 is another gun I've heard well of. There are some amazing inexpensive (not cheap!) rifles out there that are capable of incredible performance that only a few decades ago would have required a major bankroll to afford.


----------



## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

it sucks to be faced with that dilemma! I've been wanting a tactical rifle... that I can shoot a lot....for less. rounds based on the 308 are right at the top, and although I've had several 308s, ice never had any of its spawn.
for powder burned from a cartridge,and performance delivered, that parent is hard to beat!


----------



## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

From a purely ballistic standpoint, there is very little to choose from between these two. They are both excellent cartridges...it would be very difficult to tell a practical difference between the two in the field (just like trying to compare a .280 Rem vs 30-06).

Choose one, lay in a supply of brass and appropriate bullets, practice with your chosen rifle, don't sweat the small stuff.

Tim


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Since you reload I will say I have a 243, two 7mm08's and a 308. If I could just have one it would be a 7MM08 lots of good bullets for it from light weight varmint stuff to some heavy duty stuff for moose and elk.
One of mine is a Remington 700 mountain rifle set up for long rang shooting across cranberry bogs for white tail deer. I load it with IMR 4350 and a 120gr. Nosler BT bullet.
the other is a short quick Remington model 7 with a 2.5 x7 Pentex lite seeker scope for thick cedar swamps. I load a 150gr. Serra SPBT game king over a load of IMR 4350.
Both perform excellent.

 Al


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I know I'm kind of splitting hairs but I'm am an avid follower of the "7P's" when it comes to shooting. I have a little more research to do but definitely appreciate the comments and opinions.

I love IMR 4064 and 4350. Their use will play part in making my decision.


----------



## stockdogcompany (Jan 25, 2015)

Out of your wheel house, but a flat shooting no brainer whack-o-matic I have in my tool box is a Weatherby Mark V in .270 Weatherby Mag.


I have one particular round worked up with light weight nosler partitions that when sighted at 200 yards I'm 2 inches high at 100, 2 inches low at 300, and 7 inches low at 400 yard. It's a no brain center mass shooter if there isn't windage or thermal current concerns. If I want to twist my optics and use heavier weight bullets (130-160 gr) I can knock down deer sized stuff at 400 yards without a thought, except calculating bullet drop and taking a twist.


----------



## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

JJ Grandits said:


> I know I'm kind of splitting hairs but I'm am an avid follower of the "7P's" when it comes to shooting. I have a little more research to do but definitely appreciate the comments and opinions.
> 
> I love IMR 4064 and 4350. *Their use will play part in making my decision*.


Ok, now we have more data!

If your primary uses are hunting deer and popping targets, I will be so bold as to assume that in the 7-08 you will use mostly bullets in the 140 to 150 gr range and in the 308 150 to 165 gr.

4064 and 4350 are definitely more optimized for the 7-08 and 140 - 150 gr bullets, than they are for the 308 and 150 to 165 gr bullets.


Tim


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

The two guns Im looking at in 7mm-08 both have a 1:9.5 twist rate. The Marlin has a 22" barrel and the vanguard has a 24" barrel. Does anyone know the maximum weight bullet that twist rate will stabilize? does the difference in barrel length make any significant difference?
I am leaning more and more towards the 7mm-08.
As far as the powders go, I have excellent results with them in the .243 and will soon start reloading for my .30/06 using them also. I like to keep things simple.


----------



## stockdogcompany (Jan 25, 2015)

The needed rate of twist is effected by the diameter of the bullet, the bullets weight, and the bullet's overall length. Longer bullets need a faster twist to stabilize. For best accuracy the slowest twist that will stabilize the bullet should be used.
Modern bullet stability calculations are based upon the work of the late Robert L. McCoy who was a ballistician with the Ballistic Research Laboratory at Aberdeen Proving Ground. A stability factor of from 1.25 to 2 is considered "stable."
There is an old formula called the Greenhill Formula that, while it was designed for estimating twists for boat tailed lead core bullets of moderate velocity, does a pretty good job of estimating twist required for flat based bullets under "normal" conditions.
T = Twist in inches
K = Greenhill's constant = 150 (This has to do with the specific gravity of a jacketed lead bullet)
D = Bullet diameter in inches
L = Bullet length in inches
T = (K * D2) / L
Using a 1.35 inch long .308 bullet (173 gr) and crunching the numbers we get about 10.5 (One turn in 10.5", which is pretty close to the 1:10 twist normally used in .30-06 rifles. The twist for the .308 is nominally 1:12 because it was based on the shorter bullet of the 150 gr military ammunition from which the .308 commercial round was developed. Most match rifles in .308 have a 1:10 twist to stabilize the 180 and 190 boat tailed match bullets better. The results from the Greenhill formula are on the conservative side--indicating a faster twist than probably needed. That doesn't cause any problems because a little too much stabilization is better than too little.

The Greenhill formula does not account for the effects of temperature or muzzle velocity. As temperature or velocity decreases a faster twist is needed to maintain the same level of stability. Colder and thus denser air has a more destabilizing affect than warmer air. A lower muzzle velocity results in a slower rotational speed of the bullet and thus less stability.

In short, the 1:9.5 twist rate is very fast and well suited to longer(heavier)rounds and will probably be a good cold weather shooter for 160-180 grain bullets. Light weight(short overall length) bullets launched in hot temperatures may spin enough to destabilize and give you some fliers. Feed, fire, figure, repeat! Your mileage will vary.


----------



## Cropduster (Feb 7, 2015)

I love my .308 and it's always good to use the same caliber as the military and PD.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Cool. Now I have a formula to work with. I love that stuff. With the 7mm-08 it appears that the 139gr and 140gr are well mentioned. I would also like to try up to the 175gr. There are some bullets out there with a great BC.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Stockdogcompany, ran formula a couple of times and it made no sense. How about an illustration.?


----------



## palm farmer (Jan 3, 2014)

The AR has an 11 1/4 twist Bartlein barrel and is good to 800 yards, The bolt gun is a stock rem 700 and can get a little further than the AR. 
I have a Accuracy International stock for the Rem just havent had time to get it put together yet.... I went with 308 because of availability and range of bullet types


----------



## stockdogcompany (Jan 25, 2015)

T = Twist in inches
K = Greenhill's constant = 150 (This has to do with the specific gravity of a jacketed lead bullet)
D = Bullet diameter in inches
L = Bullet length in inches
T = (K * D2) / L
Using a 1.35 inch long .308 bullet (173 gr) and crunching the numbers we get about 10.5 (One turn in 10.5", which is pretty close to the 1:10 twist normally used in .30-06 rifles

T=(150*.308*.308)/1.35
10.54=(14.2296)/1.35

twist rate~1:10.5


----------



## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hey Guys,
I've got no dog in this fight but the 308 is probably cheaper ammo, the 7-08 is better ballisticly. I'd look around see if you can a guy who has a bunch of one or the other brass and dies. and let your cheep ole uncle learn yas!
have fun,
Dutch


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Outside of a couple of boxes of store bought ammo for break in I will be reloading everything. That way I have the joy of finding the perfect load. Seriously, I really get into it.

Figured out my mistake with the formula. I did not take D2 as D squared. according to what I came up with a 160 gr. 7mm-08 that is 1.410 inches long will require a 1:8.5 twist to stabilize. Does that sound right?

Anyways I guess my mind is made up. It will be a 7mm-08 and it will probably be a Marlin x7. If I can get that to perform the same as the .243 I will be one happy camper.


----------



## stockdogcompany (Jan 25, 2015)

Yup. I always look at my barrel twist rate, and then start working backwards. That length of bullet is probably within a tenth inch of maximum to stay stable. 

Beyond considering twist rate, I slug my barrels with lead round balls. Check for tight spots or loose spots in rifling, and measure lands in the doll rod driven swaged pure soft lead round-ball-becomes-slug that comes out(groove diameter in barrel) to get a true dimension for my bullets. A lot of room for .001-.007" in variation between nominal and actual diameter of commercially made rifle bores. Nothing too wreck accuracy like a mismatched bore to bullet diameter problem. I like to buy a bullet .001" larger than actual bore diameter. 

Feed, fire, figure, repeat!


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I love Hornady and Sierra bullets. The 150 gr, Sierra Gameking looks like my ticket. Now that I have an inexpensive but quality rifle I have to find an inexpensive but quality scope. Then I can convince my inexpensive but quality wife I need another gun.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

hard to beat the Nikon prostaff line for value in a scope


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Yep, that's whats on the .243. It's a 3x9 and I would like to go with a 4x12 on both guns.


----------



## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

Congrats on your new tool! May she shoot straight and true.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

This is just the deciding stage. The "getting" stage may take awhile. The rule of thumb is that I will put money away and when I get close something out of the blue will come along an chew it up on me. Such is life.


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Don't forget to try some Barne's bullets in your new baby.

I've killed various critters from South Texas to the Arctic Circle, and I've had some great performance out of those solid copper pills.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Recently read an article on the Barnes bullet. So far all I have used is the Sierra Gameking and the Hornady Vmax. I don't know if I just got lucky or not, but the performance has been unbelievable on the range. Keep in mind I've just been punching holes in paper. They still have to be proven as hunting bullets. i do believe that an 87gr. Vmax will take out a woodchuck pretty easy.


----------



## beenaround (Mar 2, 2015)

I can say the 7-08 is a great deer rifle. We shoot slugs round here, but my late baby brother lived in rifle country. I use his 7-08 when hunting with him there. Shot a lot of deer, one didn't hit the ground dead, just one, didn't go far.

My 12 ga puts them down, eventually. Had a few hit the ground dead but nothing like the 7-08. Love the Remington trigger although I've heard they might be recalled. I wouldn't change a thing about that rifle. His was stainless/synthetic.

He had possibly 100 rifle to choose from. He liked the 300 win mag too.


----------



## Bigblue7 (Feb 17, 2015)

Hey guys I just got a 7mm-08 during the holidays. So far a very accurate gun but searching online I have made a few mods and have begun reloading for it because the ammo is hard to find. I have used many rifles to take down deer from my 223 to my 300 win mag.but I am most excited about this gun light gun shoots great.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Another factor with the 7mm-08 is the light recoil. I've had my share of shoulder busters. I'm into more comfortable shooting as I get older.


----------



## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

JJ Grandits said:


> Another factor with the 7mm-08 is the light recoil. I've had my share of shoulder busters. I'm into more comfortable shooting as I get older.


Amen to that, brother!


----------



## kronk (Mar 26, 2015)

JJ Grandits said:


> Been planning on picking up a new rifle this year. I've kind of decided on either a .308 or a 7mm-08. It would primarily be used for* target shooting and Deer hunting. Possibly guarding the home from Islamic radicals.* The .308 is a great round but I have been hearing real good things about the 7mm-08. any input would be appreciated.


Maybe okay for them, but I'd go .458 Win Mag for the Christian radicals. Just as crazy, but with thicker heads. 

Brilliant! :clap:


----------



## bigjon (Oct 2, 2013)

after having the rem 770 for a couple months?i'm trading in for the weatherby vanguard in .308....


----------

