# Time for Zelensky to Accept Putin's Terms



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

_Prime Minister Naftali Bennett told Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky that he recommends Ukraine take the offer made by Russian President Vladimir Putin to end the war - which includes many Ukrainian sacrifices - in a phone call on Tuesday, according to an official in Ukraine's government._​​_According to the official, Zelensky did not take Bennett's advice._​​_The source claimed that the phone call was initiated by Bennett. *"If I were you, I would think about the lives of my people and take the offer,"* Bennett reportedly said. _​​_Jerusalem Post_​​I agree with PM Bennett, with these exceptions. I would want a 3-day ceasefire to get the sick and wounded cared for and to get everyone out of Ukraine that wanted out. I would demand UN Peacekeepers be placed between Russian troops and Ukrainian occupied territory. I would ask for a neutral country to host the negotiations.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Zelensky might very well be thinking about his people long term, and thus the fight.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> _Prime Minister Naftali Bennett told Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky that he recommends Ukraine take the offer made by Russian President Vladimir Putin to end the war - which includes many Ukrainian sacrifices - in a phone call on Tuesday, according to an official in Ukraine's government._​​_According to the official, Zelensky did not take Bennett's advice._​​_The source claimed that the phone call was initiated by Bennett. *"If I were you, I would think about the lives of my people and take the offer,"* Bennett reportedly said. _​​_Jerusalem Post_​​I agree with PM Bennett, with these exceptions. I would want a 3-day ceasefire to get the sick and wounded cared for and to get everyone out of Ukraine that wanted out. I would demand UN Peacekeepers be placed between Russian troops and Ukrainian occupied territory. I would ask for a neutral country to host the negotiations.


That report you posted is being denied by both Israel (Bennett) and Ukraine (Zelensky). They're both saying that Bennett never advised Zelensky to do any such thing and that such a thing would be impossible for Zelensky to agree to:









Israel, Ukraine deny report Bennett recommended yielding to Russia


Russian attacks continue during latest evacuation attempts * Ukraine’s president says Russia sending new troops




www.jpost.com





And it's true that it would be impossible for Zelensky to give up and give in on behalf of Ukraine and the Ukrainian people. The Ukrainian people wouldn't ever give up to Russia, they would never allow it. They'll all sacrifice their lives first and go down fighting before they'll give up on Ukraine.

I wonder how many foreigners know that many, many of the mothers who were able to escape with their children and found safe harbour for their children in other countries are now leaving their kids in safe hands with other people in those countries and are returning to Ukraine to fight with their men for Ukraine?

I guess maybe some people can't understand. Maybe people have to be Ukrainians to understand why the Ukrainians will never give up, never give in. Even those Ukrainian immigrants and their offspring and their offsprings' offspring living permanently in Ukrainian diasporas in other countries all understand the sentiment and the passion to not give up Ukraine.

.


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## Northof49 (Mar 3, 2018)

Zelenskyy is merely a puppet of the US Democratic Party. He is on the fastest sinking ship that ever sailed. All truth's will be revealed as their lies and propaganda crumble around them. This will lead to the demise of the WEF Great Reset.


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

Northof49 said:


> Zelenskyy is merely a puppet of the US Democratic Party. He is on the fastest sinking ship that ever sailed. All truth's will be revealed as their lies and propaganda crumble around them. This will lead to the demise of the WEF Great Reset.


Can you elaborate on how the Ukraine events 'will lead to the demise of the WEF Great Reset'? If it dies, what do you believe takes its place in the world of the Davos elites?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Northof49 said:


> Zelenskyy is merely a puppet of the US Democratic Party. He is on the fastest sinking ship that ever sailed. All truth's will be revealed as their lies and propaganda crumble around them. This will lead to the demise of the WEF Great Reset.


That’s ridiculous. The 2019 election that brought him into power came down between Volodomyr Zelenskyy and Petro Poroshenko. Poroshenko was the guy the Obama administration State Department worked to get in place in 2014. The State Department was shocked when Poroshenko lost, and the deepstate was outraged when Trump called to congratulate Zelenskyy, and then had the audacity to work with him to send lethal arms aid to Ukraine, even though he was not “our guy”.

Zelenskyy beat Poroshenko by a margin of something like 75% to 25%. Zelenskyy is most definitely NOT the US Democrat party’s puppet, and, given his overwhelming margin of victory, knows full well that his mandate comes from the Ukrainian people rather than some international political interest.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Northof49 said:


> This will lead to the demise of the WEF Great Reset.


Can you explain the reasoning on that?

Me, I don't think anything will stop the Davos Reset


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Paumon said:


> That report you posted is being denied by both Israel (Bennett) and Ukraine (Zelensky). They're both saying that Bennett never advised Zelensky to do any such thing and that such a thing would be impossible for Zelensky to agree to:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is one of the reasons why I am confused about what this is really about. Putin's demands are ludicrous, even if the current admin agrees to them at the end of a gun barrel, that agreement only lasts as long as that gun is pointed at them. A nation invaded and shelled agreeing to disarm and making nice with its marauders? That makes sense.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Hiro said:


> This is one of the reasons why I am confused about what this is really about. Putin's demands are ludicrous, even if the current admin agrees to them at the end of a gun barrel, that agreement only lasts as long as that gun is pointed at them. A nation invaded and shelled agreeing to disarm and making nice with its marauders? That makes sense.


Once Russia has reclaimed Ukraine, it is not too worried about having to be brutal to bring it back under collar. Russia sees Ukraine as an escaped slave. Putin is demanding that the west look the other way while he puts the shackles on. He’s having to rough it up a bit to get it to put down its weapon and accept recapture, but the real beatings won’t take place until Putin has his slave back home on the plantation.

If Zelenskyy submits, as @MoonRiver is so gleefully rooting for, the Ukrainian people will continue to fight back, but they will be fought with everything from gas to the kidnapping and torture of their family members. The press won’t be allowed to show it. Putin would much rather fight this battle behind his iron curtain, and is just trying to manipulate the scene to bring that about as soon as possible.


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## Northof49 (Mar 3, 2018)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Zelenskyy beat Poroshenko by a margin of something like 75% to 25%. Zelenskyy is most definitely NOT the US Democrat party’s puppet, and, given his overwhelming margin of victory, knows full well that his mandate comes from the Ukrainian people rather than some international political interest.


An overwhelming victory in rigged elections means nothing. Why do you think EVERYTHING is going bad for Bidan and the Democrats. All built under false pretenses. Why do so many leading Democrats have business connections in Ukraine? Money laundering, human trafficking, lethal bio-lab development and unapproved human experimental trials etc. etc. Ukraine is one of the most unregulated developed country in the world. Hence the playground for evil and corruption.
Putin is not after the Ukrainian people, or their land. He is after the Kazarian Mafia/WEF (Davis Group) projects, server banks, bio-labs, child trafficking rescues and undermining the Davis Group ability to operate. They must be stopped world wide before it's too late. Putin is merely playing his part in a much bigger Worldwide Operation.

WEF/Davis Group is loosing the battle almost as fast as the Democrats are dropping. Why do you think they reposted on their website this week from Agenda 30 to Agenda 23. That is their last hope, after that they will have been crushed. Many leaders you think are still active have already been removed and replaced with actors until the take down is complete. Soros, Trudeau, Macron, Queen Elizabeth, Boris Johnson, Klaus Schaub, Joe Bidan to name a few.

I know, many here will say none of this is true, but soon the operation will be completed and it will come to light for all. It had to be this way to expose all the swamp creatures Worldwide.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Despots and Kings have quelled the populace for centuries. There is a checklist.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Northof49 said:


> An overwhelming victory in rigged elections means nothing. Why do you think EVERYTHING is going bad for Bidan and the Democrats. All built under false pretenses. Why do so many leading Democrats have business connections in Ukraine? Money laundering, human trafficking, lethal bio-lab development and unapproved human experimental trials etc. etc. Ukraine is one of the most unregulated developed country in the world. Hence the playground for evil and corruption.
> Putin is not after the Ukrainian people, or their land. He is after the Kazarian Mafia/WEF (Davis Group) projects, server banks, bio-labs, child trafficking rescues and undermining the Davis Group ability to operate. They must be stopped world wide before it's too late. Putin is merely playing his part in a much bigger Worldwide Operation.
> 
> WEF/Davis Group is loosing the battle almost as fast as the Democrats are dropping. Why do you think they reposted on their website this week from Agenda 30 to Agenda 23. That is their last hope, after that they will have been crushed. Many leaders you think are still active have already been removed and replaced with actors until the take down is complete. Soros, Trudeau, Macron, Queen Elizabeth, Boris Johnson, Klaus Schaub, Joe Bidan to name a few.
> ...


...and if you're calling from west of The Rockies...😁


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

Northof49 said:


> An overwhelming victory in rigged elections means nothing. Why do you think EVERYTHING is going bad for Bidan and the Democrats. All built under false pretenses. Why do so many leading Democrats have business connections in Ukraine? Money laundering, human trafficking, lethal bio-lab development and unapproved human experimental trials etc. etc. Ukraine is one of the most unregulated developed country in the world. Hence the playground for evil and corruption.
> Putin is not after the Ukrainian people, or their land. He is after the Kazarian Mafia/WEF (Davis Group) projects, server banks, bio-labs, child trafficking rescues and undermining the Davis Group ability to operate. They must be stopped world wide before it's too late. Putin is merely playing his part in a much bigger Worldwide Operation.
> 
> WEF/Davis Group is loosing the battle almost as fast as the Democrats are dropping. Why do you think they reposted on their website this week from Agenda 30 to Agenda 23. That is their last hope, after that they will have been crushed. Many leaders you think are still active have already been removed and replaced with actors until the take down is complete. Soros, Trudeau, Macron, Queen Elizabeth, Boris Johnson, Klaus Schaub, Joe Bidan to name a few.
> ...


Interchange 'China' with 'Ukraine'. Same results.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Once Russia has reclaimed Ukraine, it is not too worried about having to be brutal to bring it back under collar. Russia sees Ukraine as an escaped slave. Putin is demanding that the west look the other way while he puts the shackles on. He’s having to rough it up a bit to get it to put down its weapon and accept recapture, but the real beatings won’t take place until Putin has his slave back home on the plantation.
> 
> If Zelenskyy submits, as @MoonRiver is so gleefully rooting for, the Ukrainian people will continue to fight back, but they will be fought with everything from gas to the kidnapping and torture of their family members. The press won’t be allowed to show it. Putin would much rather fight this battle behind his iron curtain, and is just trying to manipulate the scene to bring that about as soon as possible.


Nothing gleeful in my post, just reality. The West has failed Ukraine. Sending them weapons is simply to try to bleed Russia a little more. This is a proxy war between the West and Russia and Ukraine is paying the price.

NATO couldn't get their act together if they wanted to. Underfunded for years, it is questionable how effective they would be. without major involvement by the US. NATO is a paper tiger.

Europe is almost totally dependent on Russian pipelines for their energy. Europe can do little to stop Putin. 

Just what is it that people think is going to happen if Ukraine fights for another day or another week? How will it be better for the people of Ukraine?


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Northof49 said:


> Zelenskyy is merely a puppet of the US Democratic Party. He is on the fastest sinking ship that ever sailed. All truth's will be revealed as their lies and propaganda crumble around them. This will lead to the demise of the WEF Great Reset.


I am not so sure that is true. Has anyone noticed that after months of NO! the $1.5T budget was passed this week? 
Maybe Russia invaded as a distraction while the US passes this massive spending bill?

I do not believe this, but now-a-days anything is possible, and what is a few billion dollars to Putin, Zelensky, when you are spending $1.5T?

Just sayin'


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Northof49 said:


> An overwhelming victory in rigged elections means nothing. Why do you think EVERYTHING is going bad for Bidan and the Democrats. All built under false pretenses. Why do so many leading Democrats have business connections in Ukraine? Money laundering, human trafficking, lethal bio-lab development and unapproved human experimental trials etc. etc. Ukraine is one of the most unregulated developed country in the world. Hence the playground for evil and corruption.
> Putin is not after the Ukrainian people, or their land. He is after the Kazarian Mafia/WEF (Davis Group) projects, server banks, bio-labs, child trafficking rescues and undermining the Davis Group ability to operate. They must be stopped world wide before it's too late. Putin is merely playing his part in a much bigger Worldwide Operation.
> 
> WEF/Davis Group is loosing the battle almost as fast as the Democrats are dropping. Why do you think they reposted on their website this week from Agenda 30 to Agenda 23. That is their last hope, after that they will have been crushed. Many leaders you think are still active have already been removed and replaced with actors until the take down is complete. Soros, Trudeau, Macron, Queen Elizabeth, Boris Johnson, Klaus Schaub, Joe Bidan to name a few.
> ...


You are just showing how little you know about the current situation.

Trying to argue against or in evidence of fraud in the most recent election in Ukraine is a fool’s errand. No doubt there was some, but neither side would be able to prove what it’s effect was. That said, trying to cast Zelenskyy as the beneficiary of election-rigging makes one look foolish.

Russia’s candidate did not make it to the run-off, and the west’s pick lost in the run-off. So, if either Russia or the US/EU was rigging the election, they both failed miserably. In fact, the world’s governments and international press thought Zelenskyy’s candidacy was a joke. Before winning the election, Zelenskyy was best known for his staring role in a comedy show about a guy who accidentally became the president.

Zelenskyy’s win shocked the world. If there was rigging in the election, it was against Zelenskyy, and his un-rigged margin was even higher. Literally no body was pulling for him except, apparently, the Ukrainian people.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> no body was pulling for him except, apparently, the Ukrainian people.





GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Zelenskyy was best known for his staring role in a comedy show


Sounds so familiar


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> Nothing gleeful in my post, just reality. The West has failed Ukraine. Sending them weapons is simply to try to bleed Russia a little more. This is a proxy war between the West and Russia and Ukraine is paying the price.
> 
> NATO couldn't get their act together if they wanted to. Underfunded for years, it is questionable how effective they would be. without major involvement by the US. NATO is a paper tiger.
> 
> ...


Bull. Every single one of your posts on the topic, going back to even before the invasion, was about how “Russia has valid reasons for doing this”, “Russia only wants the parts that should really belong to them anyway”, “Ukraine is going to suffer a humiliating loss”, “The US is really to blame for all of this”, “We should just stay out of if”, and, now, “Ukraine should just give up now, and let Putin have what he wants”.

I’ve read a lot of different sources of both coverage and social media on this topic, and I’ve yet to see anyone with a more pro-Putin take than yours.

To answer your question:
“_Just what is it that people think is going to happen if Ukraine fights for another day or another week? How will it be better for the people of Ukraine?_”

There’s actually a lot that could possibly come out in the Ukrainian people’s favor if they’re able to hold on for another week or another month. I know it obviously pains you to consider it, but the defense of Ukraine is causing some pretty serious casualties for the Russians.

Putin has had to close his stock market for two weeks. He had to close it just a day or two after invading, and has had to keep it closed the entire invasion because opening it, for even one day, would completely collapse his domestic economy. Imagine, for just a second, the effect on domestic sentiment if an _elective_ US war caused us to shut down the NYSE for two weeks. This is having a HUGE negative effect in Russia.

Also, given the protests and mass-arrests, it appears that the Russian people aren’t quite as pro-Putin as you are on this topic. The sentiment against the invasion grows every day, and every time another invading soldier is smoked by the Ukrainian resistance.

Ukrainians are dying, but they’re fighting against having their land taken from them, being stripped of their military and right to self-defense, and future enslavement by their prior slave master. Another week or two could actually make all the difference for Ukrainian freedom.

The Ukrainians’ fight to maintain their freedom is apparently a little stronger than your desire to see Putin given everything he wants.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Sounds so familiar


I know, right?

This part, too:


GunMonkeyIntl said:


> … the world’s governments and international press thought Zelenskyy’s candidacy was a joke.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I know, right?
> 
> This part, too:


So naïve of us to trust The People


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Bull


Let's just say his thought has evolved.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> That’s ridiculous. The 2019 election that brought him into power came down between Volodomyr Zelenskyy and Petro Poroshenko. Poroshenko was the guy the Obama administration State Department worked to get in place in 2014. The State Department was shocked when Poroshenko lost, and the deepstate was outraged when Trump called to congratulate Zelenskyy, and then had the audacity to work with him to send lethal arms aid to Ukraine, even though he was not “our guy”.
> 
> Zelenskyy beat Poroshenko by a margin of something like 75% to 25%. Zelenskyy is most definitely NOT the US Democrat party’s puppet, and, given his overwhelming margin of victory, knows full well that his mandate comes from the Ukrainian people rather than some international political interest.


What did Zelenskyy do to the guy who lost, and to the journalists who disagreed with him (Zelenskyy)? What did Zelenskyy do to people in the opposition party? 

Why does Zelenskyy support the neo-nazis in Ukraine?

Why are there videos from people in Ukraine, saying that they want to be part of Russia? (for example: [MUST-WATCH] THIS IS THE TRUTH... YOU WON'T SEE THIS ON MSM! — EXCLUSIVE: Journalist Inside Eastern Ukraine... 'People Here Are E... )



I dunno... So many conflicting stories. Makes me think that we really do not need to be involved over there, and that, other than the Resident Evil in DC laundering his money through Ukraine, it really has no effect on us. Other than yet another diversion from how messed up things are here in the US.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

A $1,000,000 bounty for the arrest of Russian President Vladimir Putin was offered to military officers by Russian entrepreneur Alex Konanykhin in a post he published on social media this week, as Russia continued its invasion of Ukraine.

"I promise to pay $1,000,000 to the officer(s) who, complying with their constitutional duty, arrest(s) Putin as a war criminal under Russian and international laws," wrote Konanykhin on LinkedIn. "Putin is not the Russian president as he came to power as the result of a special operation of blowing up apartment buildings in Russia, then violated the Constitution by eliminating free elections and murdering his opponents."

"As an ethnic Russian and a Russian citizen, I see it as my moral duty to facilitate the denazification of Russia. I will continue my assistance to Ukraine in its heroic efforts to withstand the onslaught of Putin's Orda," added the businessman. Orda is the Russian word for "horde," a predatory, plundering gang.




__





$1 million bounty on Putin offered by Russian businessman






www.msn.com


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Northof49 said:


> Zelenskyy is merely a puppet of the US Democratic Party. He is on the fastest sinking ship that ever sailed. All truth's will be revealed as their lies and propaganda crumble around them. This will lead to the demise of the WEF Great Reset.


That must be some really good dope you are smoking. Do you buy it, or grow your own?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Pony said:


> What did Zelenskyy do to the guy who lost, and to the journalists who disagreed with him (Zelenskyy)? What did Zelenskyy do to people in the opposition party?
> 
> Why does Zelenskyy support the neo-nazis in Ukraine?
> 
> Why are there videos from people in Ukraine, saying that they want to be part of Russia?


I don't know, did he bomb their homes and kill hundreds of people? If their are people who want to be part of Russia, then they should move to Russia. You can't please everybody, but that is no reason to just give up.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Seventy percent of Russian respondents told the Levada Center in 2019 that Stalin played a positive role for Russia. Stalin’s previous record approval rating stood at 54 percent in 2016.

A record low of 19 percent viewed Stalin’s role negatively, down from 32 percent in 2016.








Stalin’s Approval Rating Among Russians Hits Record High – Poll - The Moscow Times


A record 70 percent of Russians approve of Soviet leader Josef Stalin’s role in Russian history, according to a poll published by the independent Levada Center pollster on Tuesday.




www.themoscowtimes.com


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Pony said:


> What did Zelenskyy do to the guy who lost, and to the journalists who disagreed with him (Zelenskyy)? What did Zelenskyy do to people in the opposition party?
> 
> Why does Zelenskyy support the neo-nazis in Ukraine?
> 
> ...


Where did I say Zelenskyy was perfect? Nothing you posted says anything to @Northof49 ‘s allegation that the election was rigged. You’re just pivoting from an argument that was made without supporting evidence, to a strawman.

Every indication is that Zelenskyy was the Ukrainian people’s choice, and is most decidedly not the puppet of the US democrat party like North alleged.

Regarding the neo-Nazi allegation, I don’t know one way or the other, to your point. I would point out, though, that that is an allegation that Putin has been harping on in order to justify his stealing of Ukrainian land. I would also point out that the same allegations are made against officials in the Polish government because they don’t support the LGBT agenda, so you take that for what it’s worth.

Regarding Ukrainians on tape saying that they want to be part of Russia: so what? How difficult to you think it would be to find and video tape a group of people in California saying that they think California, or Texas, or Arizona should be part of Mexico? Would that justify an invasion by Mexico?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

_According to the Guardian, *Ukrainian negotiator and presidential advisor Mykhailo Podolyak said talks had become more constructive.*_​​_“We will not concede in principle on any positions. Russia now understands this. Russia is already beginning to talk constructively. I think that we will achieve some results literally in a matter of days,” he said in a video posted online._​_..._​​_At the same time, *Leonid Slutsky, member of the Russian negotiating delegation and head of the State Duma Committee on International Affairs also said there had been significant progress and they hoped to soon arrive at a “joint position”*, Sky News reports._​​_According to the state-owned RIA news agency said that when Slutski compared the state of talks now with those when they first started, there had been “substantial progress”._​​_*“According to my personal expectations, this progress may grow in the coming days into a joint position of both delegations, into documents for signing,” *Slutsky said. It was not clear what the scope of any such documents might be._​​_As Slutsky pointed out , the agreements between the parties will help reduce tensions and "save many people."_​​_





Ukraine, Russian Negotiators Say "Significant Progress" Made In Ceasefire Talks, Expect Signed Deal In "Next Few Days" | ZeroHedge


ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




www.zerohedge.com




_​


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> _*…Ukrainian negotiator and presidential advisor Mykhailo Podolyak said talks had become more constructive.*_​​_“We will not concede in principle on any positions. Russia now understands this. Russia is already beginning to talk constructively. I think that we will achieve some results literally in a matter of days,” he said in a video posted online._​_..._​​


​Does this part make you sad?

Here, even after you said they should just _give up already_, the official Ukrainian position remains that the only option is that Russia cease aggressions and pull their troops out.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Pony said:


> What did Zelenskyy do to the guy who lost, and to the journalists who disagreed with him (Zelenskyy)? What did Zelenskyy do to people in the opposition party?
> Why does Zelenskyy support the neo-nazis in Ukraine?


The neo nazi faction in the Ukraine holds one solitary seat in Parliment.
Now consider how many seats are held in the US Senate and the House by people who utterly hate our country and actively seek its demise?

Our last President was impeached twice and is still being harassed via the courts, including his family. And it could be argued that it has all been without merit. There are reporters here who have been followed, their lines tapped, their records and private source information seized. People who were little more than present in DC on 1/6 are still in jail while cities are looted and burned by the "right groups" under the nose of a condoning government.

While no two cultures, no nations or societies are exactly alike, there is some perspective to be drawn over this topic.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Bending the knee to any dictator that will murder civilians at will is never a good idea. Keep sending home bodies. If you recall Pootin's demands, one of the was to disarm. Well, that seems like a great idea. Russia is gaining ground and can flatten the surrounded cities. Yet, I maintain that I don't see what that gains Russia. Their once feared conventional forces have been revealed to be hapless and ineffective were a modern force to oppose them. That also is not in Russia's interests.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> ​Does this part make you sad?
> 
> Here, even after you said they should just _give up already_, the official Ukrainian position remains that the only option is that Russia cease aggressions and pull their troops out.


I hope Ukraine gets the best terms possible, but they will still lose the 2 Russian areas as well as Crimea. They will have to agree to be a neutral country and not join NATO. What I have always favored was for Ukraine to try to get the best terms they could, but they were not and are still not in a position to win very much in the negotiations. Russia has said from the beginning some of the items would be negotiated over years.

What I have questioned was whether the additional deaths and destruction were worth it.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> I hope Ukraine gets the best terms possible, but they will still lose the 2 Russian areas as well as Crimea. They will have to agree to be a neutral country and not join NATO. What I have always favored was for Ukraine to try to get the best terms they could, but they were not and are still not in a position to win very much in the negotiations. Russia has said from the beginning some of the items would be negotiated over years.
> 
> What I have questioned was whether the additional deaths and destruction were worth it.


And you ask questions about house remodel? 
This is a big deal. People on here know way more than I on both!!! Don't beg the bank or a dictator...


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

TripleD said:


> And you ask questions about house remodel?
> This is a big deal. People on here know way more than I on both!!! Don't beg the bank or a dictator...


I'm good at some things and not so good at others. 

I think on this I have been clear I am expressing what I believe to be an objective rather than an emotional point of view on the War in Ukraine. What I hope happens or what I wish would happen is irrelevant. 

Time may prove me wrong and if I am, I will be more than willing to admit it.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> I hope Ukraine gets the best terms possible, but they will still lose the 2 Russian areas as well as Crimea. They will have to agree to be a neutral country and not join NATO. What I have always favored was for Ukraine to try to get the best terms they could, but they were not and are still not in a position to win very much in the negotiations. Russia has said from the beginning some of the items would be negotiated over years.
> 
> What I have questioned was whether the additional deaths and destruction were worth it.


You are counting on the Ukrainian people to lay down their arms and surrender in agreement with their government. What a government does isn't always what the people do. That was apparent during the great war of northern agression.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

GTX63 said:


> You are counting on the Ukrainian people to lay down their arms and surrender in agreement with their government. What a government does isn't always what the people do. That was apparent during the great war of northern agression.


I was just thinking of this as compared to the Civil War. In both, many young men and boys, as well as innocent civilians were killed for a political war. The South was destroyed and the North wasn't. Many wars seem to be fought because politicians refuse to resolve their differences.

What I am thinking is the world has changed far more than Putin realizes. He is not going to remain in power much longer and I think Ukraine may be able to win back some of its losses in the World Court. The people of Russia are becoming more Western and a new leader may very well bring Russia back into Europe. That's why I think getting the best terms they can and stopping the killing and destruction is Ukraine's best option.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Leaders have to make hard decisions. And Zelensky is making one now. The longer he fights, and the more people the Russians kill, the better he will look when this is over. And the worse the bully, Russia will look in the eyes of the world. He didn't start this war Russia did. Peace at any cost, is the whimper of a coward. There are things worth dying for, freedom, human rights, property, the lives of your loved ones. 

There will always be bullies, there are seldom people who are willing to risk their lives to fight them.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

So just surrender and let it be the spoils of war?!?!


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> I hope Ukraine gets the best terms possible, but they will still lose the 2 Russian areas as well as Crimea. They will have to agree to be a neutral country and not join NATO. What I have always favored was for Ukraine to try to get the best terms they could, but they were not and are still not in a position to win very much in the negotiations. Russia has said from the beginning some of the items would be negotiated over years.
> 
> What I have questioned was whether the additional deaths and destruction were worth it.


They may lose Crimea and the two eastern regions, but they may not. What you stated in the post above is that, without equivocation, Ukraine would _have_ to give up everything Russia is demanding (as if that were some foregone minimum)… but, still, you wish Ukraine to get “_the best possible terms_”. 

I’ve said, from the beginning, that I did not expect Ukraine to survive this without stout international intervention. However, I also did not expect that we’d still be waiting, two weeks later, to see the battle for Kyiv start. I never, in a million years, would have expected to see Russia, today, without total air supremacy over Ukraine. It genuinely warms the heart to see video of yet another rocket turning a pile of Russian money into scrap and it’s crew into good commies.

The landscape has changed drastically over the past two weeks. So much so, that I would be much more surprised to wake up tomorrow morning to find out that Zelenskyy had surrendered than I would be to wake up to find out that Putin had Epsteined himself in his sleep, and see a Russian general making a statement of apology and cease-fire.

Let that sink in. I know it hurts you deeply to think about it, but let it sink in. Russia could actually lose this thing.

Hell, it might even be likely that Russia loses this, depending on how long the Ukrainians can hold on. Russia is on the verge of catastrophic economic collapse.

I would have given the Ukrainians 1,000,000:1 odds to survive this, as a free people, two weeks ago, but I’m now at 50:50. It’s all a matter of time, now. Who can hold out the longest?

I sincerely hope that freedom prevails, but I assure you, Moon, I still consider you a friend despite your poorly maintained moral compass. In the event that this turns out like none of us expected, and Ukraine prevails, I will be here to console your broken heart.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Maybe we can wrap this up.

All agree what Putin did was wrong by any definition.

Russia will never be looked at the same. It will take a lot, in time and in restitution, for them to regain standing in the world.


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## Northof49 (Mar 3, 2018)

From patriots from Germany:

"Ukrainian biolabs were funded by the Pentagon for the development of biological weapons. These laboratories in Ukraine were under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Health.

In the summer of 2016, the Democratic administration of Barack Obama sent a US citizen Ulyana Suprun, who was born and raised in the USA, to Ukraine, where she became Minister of Health.

Ulyana Suprun's father, George Harry Yurkiw, is a retired vice president of North American Controls Inc, a defense contractor.

Ulyana Suprun's grandfather, Ivan Yurkiv, was a private in the Independent Army of Ukraine in 1919. According to reports, during the Second World War, he was a member of detachments taking part in combat and sabotage operations against Soviet troops in the Carpathians.

Ulyana Suprun's husband, Marco Suprun, is a Canadian propagandist and producer. He is notorious for his contacts with far-right activists in Ukraine."

HE END OF THE CABAL, BABYLON HAS FALLEN

In Russia, in the Kaluga region, a replica of the Tower of Babel was burned. According to biblical tradition, the Tower of Babel is mankind's first attempt to build a world empire that would unite all the peoples and nations that inhabited the earth. It is mankind's first attempt to challenge God and take His place. It was God Himself who destroyed the tower. The fact that Russia has just now decided to burn a replica of the Tower of Babel has a clear symbolic meaning. Russia is telling the lords of the Kabbalah that their "dream" of building a world government has finally gone up in smoke. *Russia is letting the whole world know that the New World Order is defeated*.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Northof49 said:


> From patriots from Germany:
> 
> "Ukrainian biolabs were funded by the Pentagon for the development of biological weapons. These laboratories in Ukraine were under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Health.
> 
> ...


You found that scrawled on a bathroom stall in that pizza shop where the democrats go to molest and then eat babies, didn’t you?

I’m just saying, you should always cite your source. It’s only polite, and that mens-room graffitiist deserves his propers.


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## Northof49 (Mar 3, 2018)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> You found that scrawled on a bathroom stall in that pizza shop where the democrats go to molest and then eat babies, didn’t you?
> 
> I’m just saying, you should always cite your source. It’s only polite, and that mens-room graffitiist deserves his propers.


Everyday we get bombarded with fake propaganda news with no credible sources and you pick on me. I must be over a target.









World Awakening


It's time to WAKE up For questions @WorldAwakeningRus1 Rumble: https://rumble.com/account/content?type=all Powered by @ZeroSpamTelegram




t.me













Telegram: Contact @ExposeThePEDOSendTheCABAL







t.me





Happy now?????????????


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## robin416 (Dec 29, 2019)

For pete's sake. You get your information from Telegram? How about doing some research on news sites to see if that is even close to being true.

It's what most of the rest of us do when something sounds to outlandish.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

He might as well accept Putin's terms. What has happened to countries? As soon as there is a problem all of the citizens jump ship.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

I know Russia is taking territory and killing people. I also know they are suffering losses and I don't think they can hold what they have traveled through. This isn't going well and while they can kill a lot of people, those aren't indicative of successful invasion to take and HOLD real estate. A nation of 40 million+ invaded by an incompetent force of 200k? I know they are incompetent with unreliable leaders, logistics and equipment, but they can do math. 

I think this was an epic strategic blunder (for Russia) based either on faulty or misleading intelligence, a despot that isn't sane or really wants to be historic or something else larger. 

Anyway, kudos to the Ukrainians for resisting and amazingly enough for a lot of European nations for sending them weapons. But, nothing wakes you up from letting your own nations defenses atrophy like tanks rolling across a neighbor that didn't attack anyone.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> I hope Ukraine gets the best terms possible, but they will still lose the 2 Russian areas as well as Crimea. They will have to agree to be a neutral country and not join NATO. What I have always favored was for Ukraine to try to get the best terms they could, but they were not and are still not in a position to win very much in the negotiations. Russia has said from the beginning some of the items would be negotiated over years.
> 
> What I have questioned was whether the additional deaths and destruction were worth it.


I am amazed that you believe or purport to believe that is Pootin's real demands or motives. This is not what this about.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Hiro said:


> I am amazed that you believe or purport to believe that is Pootin's real demands or motives. This is not what this about.


He could have destroyed Ukraine 2 or 3 times by now if that was his objective, You have to look at the bigger picture. Putin has already worked out favorable to Russia relations with the Stans on his southern border. With the US and NATO out of Ukraine, Russia has a buffer on the Europe side and on the southern side.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> He could have destroyed Ukraine 2 or 3 times by now if that was his objective, You have to look at the bigger picture. Putin has already worked out favorable to Russia relations with the Stans on his southern border. With the US and NATO out of Ukraine, Russia has a buffer on the Europe side and on the southern side.


Pootin could have made 1/2 of Ukraine an asphalt parking lot. He obviously cannot even take it, let along pacify it and occupy it. Please think beyond checkers.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

The Ukrainian people should keep stacking Russian soldiers like cord wood….


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## Northof49 (Mar 3, 2018)

robin416 said:


> For pete's sake. You get your information from Telegram? How about doing some research on news sites to see if that is even close to being true.
> 
> It's what most of the rest of us do when something sounds to outlandish.


100% MSM = 100% Brain washed

Most news sites are 100% fake news. Telegram comes from 100's of sources, meaning the likely hood of containing truth is much greater than news sites. Any news site that actually reports the truth is immediately marked as a right wing conspiracy theory junk news site.
Those "Telegram" posts lead to further digging opportunities. You can't dig for info. until you know what your digging into.

All sources of information must be taken into account when deciding what's true. And stop insulting "Pete"


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> …With the US and NATO out of Ukraine, Russia has a buffer on the Europe side and on the southern side.


Ummmmm….

I know RT isn’t going to show you this (_just like they didn’t tell you about the Russian coup that precipitated that US-aided counter-coup, when you tried to blame the whole thing on the US _), but it’s real. You don’t have to take my word for it, either. It’s available on the interwebs.











And, while we’re on the topic; what’s this all about? Does Poland and Lithuania need to each take a big piece of Kaliningrad, and Latvia, Lithuania and Poland each get to take a chunk of Belarus, in order for them to have a “buffer”? Or, is that only OK for Russia?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Ummmmm….
> 
> I know RT isn’t going to show you this (_just like they didn’t tell you about the Russian coup that precipitated that US-aided counter-coup, when you tried to blame the whole thing on the US _), but it’s real. You don’t have to take my word for it, either. It’s available on the interwebs.
> View attachment 107129
> ...


The 3 Baltic countries do not provide a land bridge to Russia. That's why Ukraine is so critical to both NATO and Russia. I would assume what Putin is worried about are missiles, troops, and tanks being on his border and the Baltic countries don't offer the supply lines and reinforcements for that to be a concern.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"his border" No need to go on from that.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> "his border" No need to go on from that.


I agree. I'm also unsure why someone would suggest that Ukraine should take the best deal for Putin and not assume that the rules will shift as soon as they accept.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> The 3 Baltic countries do not provide a land bridge to Russia. That's why Ukraine is so critical to both NATO and Russia.


To quote… well… myself:


GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Ummmmm….













You continue to show that you’re willing to contort and outright ignore all logic in order to rationalize what Russia is doing.

The “buffer” argument is demonstrably ridiculous. Before setting foot into Ukraine, NATO already has members directly on the border with Russia. Now you’re claiming there isn’t a “land bridge”, except that there is, and it’s easy to see on any map. A vehicle in Germany, or even France could drive all the way to the Russian border without leaving NATO territory- and it’s been that way for over 20 years. Stealing terrain in Ukraine does not create a “buffer”. If anything, it destroys the one that is currently there. The borders of Latvia and Estonia are just as close to Moscow as the border of Ukraine, and those Baltic borders actually ARE part of a “NATO land bridge” to Russia that Ukraine is currently NOT.

And, worse, you defend all of this in the name of creating a “buffer” between a proven belligerent and the members of a DEFENSIVE ALLIANCE.

If Putin needs a “buffer” so badly, why doesn’t he mark off a 100 km line, inside the border of Russia?


You were quick to blame this on “meddling” by the US, but conveniently ignored the overt coup that the Russians waged in 2010 which precipitated the meddling the US did in 2014. Then, when that was pointed out, you promptly went mum on that point.

You hold up the silly “buffer” argument, completely ignoring that (a) there already isn’t one, (b) taking Ukraine doesn’t create one, and (c) that the desired “buffer” is between Putin and a defensive alliance.

I was, truly, joking about the RT connection, but I honestly am beginning to wonder if you’re not actually posting on behalf of Russian propaganda. Your logic on this matter are that blatantly skewed and demonstrably flawed.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

@MoonRiver, driving directions, perhaps?
Berlin, Germany to Rezekne, Latvia- notice the track of the blue line, and the countries it passes through. 











Here’s Rezekne, Latvia to Sebezh, Russia.









Going to flush your “land bridge” argument down the Soviet memory hole, now, too?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> @MoonRiver, driving directions, perhaps?
> Berlin, Germany to Rezekne, Latvia- notice the track of the blue line, and the countries it passes through.
> 
> View attachment 107180
> ...


Any army or supply line trying to get through there would be destroyed. A Russian province on the NE and Belarus on the SW.

_Aside from the strike on the Ukraine base on Sunday, *the Russian army has since Saturday concentrated on building up and bringing fresh supplies to the two still stationary convoys standing by west and east of Kyiv for orders to move, with occasional artillery shelling attacks on the city.*_​​_There are *signs that Russian military units maintained in Armenia and Ngorno Karabakh are preparing to move out and head for Ukraine.* *Russian warships have meanwhile sealed their blockade of the Black Sea port of Odesa.*_​​_*Debka*_​


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> Any army or supply line trying to get through there would be destroyed. A Russian province on the NE and Belarus on the SW.
> ​


​Not with NATO air superiority and missile defense systems in place. Russia hasn’t been able to achieve air supremacy over Ukraine, a non-NATO nation, but you take for granted that it could achieve it over actual NATO territory?

First, there was “no land bridge” through the Baltic states, then it became Russia “could dominate the 50 mile-wide land bridge that isn’t there”.

Your twisted logic now has you claiming that Russia could easily dominate NATO forces, _on their own territory_, but they still need a “buffer” between them and the big, bad, defensive alliance that is NATO.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> _Aside from the strike on the Ukraine base on Sunday, *the Russian army has since Saturday concentrated on building up and bringing fresh supplies to the two still stationary convoys standing by west and east of Kyiv for orders to move, with occasional artillery shelling attacks on the city.*_​​_There are *signs that Russian military units maintained in Armenia and Ngorno Karabakh are preparing to move out and head for Ukraine.* *Russian warships have meanwhile sealed their blockade of the Black Sea port of Odesa.*_​​_*Debka*_​


I don’t know if you included that in your post by accident, but you do realize that it indicates that Russia, after staging up an “_overwhelming invasion force, capable of rolling over Ukraine in just a few days_” is now, going on three weeks into its invasion, calling up reinforcements from across the empire, right?


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I don’t know if you included that in your post by accident, but you do realize that it indicates that Russia, after staging up an “_overwhelming invasion force, capable of rolling over Ukraine in just a few days_” is now, going on three weeks into its invasion, calling up reinforcements from across the empire, right?


Xi might just take some territory, though not Taiwan, before long. I think there was a Tom Clancy novel about that: _The Bear and the Dragon_


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I don’t know if you included that in your post by accident, but you do realize that it indicates that Russia, after staging up an “_overwhelming invasion force, capable of rolling over Ukraine in just a few days_” is now, going on three weeks into its invasion, calling up reinforcements from across the empire, right?


I don't believe I ever said “_overwhelming invasion force, capable of rolling over Ukraine in just a few days_”.

Putin has Ukraine surrounded on the North, South, and East. He just sent a missile into the base that was being used by NATO for supplying Ukraine. His troops are getting closer and closer to Kiev. Now he is resupplying his troops and bringing in reinforcements. I hope today's talks were successful.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Russia hasn’t been able to achieve air supremacy over Ukraine


I can't get my mind around that.



GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Russia, after staging up an “_overwhelming invasion force, capable of rolling over Ukraine in just a few days_” is now, going on three weeks into its invasion,


Is Russia really that bad? Weak?


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## robin416 (Dec 29, 2019)

HDRider said:


> I can't get my mind around that.
> 
> 
> Is Russia really that bad? Weak?


Well, they did have to lie to the military about being on the border for training exercises.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> I don't believe I ever said “_overwhelming invasion force, capable of rolling over Ukraine in just a few days_”.
> 
> Putin has Ukraine surrounded on the North, South, and East. He just sent a missile into the base that was being used by NATO for supplying Ukraine. His troops are getting closer and closer to Kiev. Now he is resupplying his troops and bringing in reinforcements. I hope today's talks were successful.


You didn’t, to my knowledge, say that Russia would be able to overwhelm Ukraine in just a few days. That was the prevailing military analysis of the situation.

Even if Russia was not able to take and suppress all Ukrainian military nodes within a few days, prevailing analyses were that Russia would achieve air supremacy within hours. The prognosis for Russia in Ukraine was similar to the prognosis (and effect) of the US in Iraq. The territory was too large for a true blitzkrieg effect, but air supremacy was gained almost immediately, freeing up the ground forces to take territory slowly, carefully, and with almost no risk of losing it back.

That was the military analysts’ recipe for the Russian invasion, and that is not at all what has happened. There are multiple reports of Russia having to take and re-take territory multiple times, and (reported) similar aircraft attrition rates, still. That is far over par for the overmatch that Russia brought to bear.

In fact, Russia’s pre-invasion emplacements had a 1.5-2x scales invasion force, for exactly the type of invasion that the analysts predicted. The initial launch went very much according to the predicted model, and then almost immediately bogged down. Russia has since been forced to send in its reserves, and is now having to bring even more forces to theatre.

Remember that this is the assemblage of units that was discovered to be a hodge-podge from various divisions and regiments in the first place. If Russia is now having to reinforce from deployed divisions, rather than the parent divisions, their logistics and planning staff are clearly struggling to hold together a cohesive plan according to military norms.


I, too, hope that the talks were successful, and that Putin is finally compromising his demands. I also hope that the Ukrainians keep on making piles of good commies in the meantime.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> I can't get my mind around that.
> 
> 
> Is Russia really that bad? Weak?


I can’t either, and I don’t know. I still struggle to believe that the Russian conventional army is as weak and ineffective as the last few weeks have shown.

Maybe that is the reality. They had/have a mostly conscript army, living in a nation with a volatile economy that chiefly exists to serve a ruling oligarchy, so maybe they have let their military atrophy. Of course, we also found that their military was much weaker than we thought, back in the 90s, so maybe the military analysts had it all wrong. Maybe Russia has a big and expensive military, but not a good one.

Of course, it’s entirely possible that this is actually part of their strategy, but I’ve yet to see anyone put forth a reasonable theory as to how appearing to do this poorly is strategic.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

This comes from The Conservative TreeHouse and pretty much mirrors my thinking on what is behind the Ukraine war. it's worth reading the entire article and watching the video.

_Fox News correspondent Steve Harrigan returns from Ukraine with a somber message about the situation and likely future. *Harrigan notes that Russian victory in Ukraine is a foregone conclusion*, Ukraine will be flattened if needed. However, that outcome comes at a serious cost._​​_The war inside Ukraine will wage on for years as an insurgency against Vladimir Putin. The western alliance will spend trillions if needed. *NATO will kill as many Ukrainians and mercenary units as needed in order to battle Vladimir Putin in a proxy war. The industrial war machine will gleefully churn out the material needed for the DC based political war machine to purchase.* _​_..._​_Harrigan is correct, however, he missed the *biggest tell-tale sign of all*. *Where are the peacekeepers?* *Where are the diplomatic voices, the ranks of the prudent and pragmatic political voices who focus on stopping the death? * *Where are those voices?* *Where is the faith-based voice asking for leaders to stop, breathe, meet and seek a solution without further war?*_​​More​


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> You didn’t, to my knowledge, say that Russia would be able to overwhelm Ukraine in just a few days. That was the prevailing military analysis of the situation.
> 
> Even if Russia was not able to take and suppress all Ukrainian military nodes within a few days, prevailing analyses were that Russia would achieve air supremacy within hours. The prognosis for Russia in Ukraine was similar to the prognosis (and effect) of the US in Iraq. The territory was too large for a true blitzkrieg effect, but air supremacy was gained almost immediately, freeing up the ground forces to take territory slowly, carefully, and with almost no risk of losing it back.
> 
> ...


The military analysis was a joke to begin with. Comparing an invading nations total forces to their target showed the non-serious nature of the analysis. A nation invaded/under attack is going to deploy everything to engage it, including reserves. There actually appeared to be, amazingly enough, accurate US intelligence about the forces prepared to invade Ukraine. It was basically par.

One more time, because I think I saw the horse twitch, this makes no sense. If you are going to invade a nation the size of Texas with a population of 41 million and a standing military of 200k+, not including reserves, you don't do it with 200k of your own forces unless you have starved it of resources, made certain it can't get further arms/supplies and are likely to end it with rapidity.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Hiro said:


> The military analysis was a joke to begin with. Comparing an invading nations total forces to their target showed the non-serious nature of the analysis. A nation invaded/under attack is going to deploy everything to engage it, including reserves. There actually appeared to be, amazingly enough, accurate US intelligence about the forces prepared to invade Ukraine. It was basically par.
> 
> One more time, because I think I saw the horse twitch, this makes no sense. If you are going to invade a nation the size of Texas with a population of 41 million and a standing military of 200k+, not including reserves, you don't do it with 200k of your own forces unless you have starved it of resources, made certain it can't get further arms/supplies and are likely to end it with rapidity.


It makes sense, but you would have to change your assumption about Putin's objective to acceot it. Putin wanted the 2 Russian territories in Ukraine. He wanted Ukraine to stay out of NATO and the EU. He wanted a friendly government in Ukraine. He wants Ukraine to agree Crimea is part of Russia. He probably also wanted a land bridge between the 2 Russian territories.

His goal is primarily about security, not expansion. I think he thought massing troops and taking some territory would be enough to get the Ukrainian government to capitulate to his demands. I think if Putin ordered it, the Russian military could flatten Ukraine in a couple of days, but I think Putin is trying to force the government to agree to his terms without destroying the entire country. There is no benefit to Russia in flattening Ukraine.

The strategy now seems to be to slowly advance and inflict damage and death until Ukraine gives in. I'm afraid when Russian reinforcements get there, it might turn into a blood bath. For his own political survival, Putin needs to end this sooner rather than later, which may lead to a massacre.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

Look how long it takes the U.S. A war is not something to do in a hurry.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

MoonRiver said:


> He could have destroyed Ukraine 2 or 3 times by now if that was his objective, You have to look at the bigger picture. Putin has already worked out favorable to Russia relations with the Stans on his southern border. With the US and NATO out of Ukraine, Russia has a buffer on the Europe side and on the southern side.


You seem to have a very benevolent picture of this Putin.
Would you suggest that he earns the Nobel Peace Price?
And gets some title like "Friend of all Mankind, Bringer of Peace!" - or some such?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Berwick said:


> You seem to have a very benevolent picture of this Putin.
> Would you suggest that he earns the Nobel Peace Price?
> And gets some title like "Friend of all Mankind, Bringer of Peace!" - or some such?


You are making a strawman argument. Just because I think Russia is going to get what they want doesn't mean I support Putin. Look at any map that shows the parts of Ukraine that Russia controls and it is obvious this is almost over. The only thing that could prolong it is if the US pushes Zelenkski to continue to fight a war he can't win.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> You are making a strawman argument. Just because I think Russia is going to get what they want doesn't mean I support Putin. Look at any map that shows the parts of Ukraine that Russia controls and it is obvious this is almost over. The only thing that could prolong it is if the US pushes Zelenkski to continue to fight a war he can't win.


Russia is killing civilians in a non-hostile neighboring nation. You fight and it matters not whether you are killed fighting them by shrapnel from an artillery shell or a month later after kneeling with a bullet to the back of the head. Well, you get a month of kneeling on the plus side....to some people.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> You are making a strawman argument. Just because I think Russia is going to get what they want doesn't mean I support Putin. Look at any map that shows the parts of Ukraine that Russia controls and it is obvious this is almost over. The only thing that could prolong it is if the US pushes Zelenkski to continue to fight a war he can't win.


You’re right, thinking that Russia is going to win doesn’t necessarily mean that you support Putin. I think Russia is going to win (something, at least), and I couldn’t possibly hate Russia/Putin/Communists more.

The fact that you’re rooting for Putin doesn’t come through in the fact that you think Russia is going to win. Your obvious support for Putin comes from _literally everything else you post on this topic_.

You immediately blamed the US for the whole situation, citing articles in the media detailing US meddling in Ukraine in 2014. When countered with articles and a timeline detailing that the 2014 “meddling” was in direct response to Russian meddling (with success) in the prior Ukrainian election, you respond that the media can’t be trusted. You had several posts early on citing Russian successes in their press, but immediately discard any report of Ukrainian successes as propaganda.

While the attempt to surround Kyiv has been floundering for two weeks, including a convoy that stopped dead for a lack of fuel and food and has only now advanced 9 miles in 8 days, your immediate reaction was that Ukraine better surrender, now, while it still can. 

I actually appreciate counter viewpoints, and genuinely prefer to engage in conversations where my view is not an echo, but your position throughout this entire situation has been to full-throatedly accept any report or quote that reflects the Russian position while discarding anything counter to that as propaganda.

You’ve argued Putin’s excuses as valid, even when they’re not logical. You’ve argued that Russia’s molasses-slow progress was because they were taking care not to kill civilians and destroy civic infrastructure… and then claimed it was propaganda when reports and video evidence of exactly that came out. You claimed that Ukraine was so critical because the Baltic states didn’t provide a NATO land bridge to Russia… except that they do… and then tried to dismiss it because Russia could easily dominate that area- ignoring that those were actual NATO countries and Ukraine is not.

Just own it. You’re clearly rooting for Russia, it’s 100% transparent, and it makes you look silly to claim that you’re not.


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

I suppose when our Founding Father's were losing battle after battle, we should have just given up.

Or when we were being beaten in the Pacific, we should have just given up.

Or when we had dark days during the Civil War, we should have just given up.

Or when MLK Jr. and his followers were being beaten, he should have just given up.

Jeez. You make no sense.

If we were invaded and were losing, should we just give up?

I would prefer our country go down swinging. I assume the Ukranians feel the same way.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> You’re right, thinking that Russia is going to win doesn’t necessarily mean that you support Putin. I think Russia is going to win (something, at least), and I couldn’t possibly hate Russia/Putin/Communists more.
> 
> The fact that you’re rooting for Putin doesn’t come through in the fact that you think Russia is going to win. Your obvious support for Putin comes from _literally everything else you post on this topic_.
> 
> ...


It is like an ox with a yoke. Go back to the Wuflu early days of posts. One master of the yoke was disproven, so they found another one to be harnessed to.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

MoonRiver said:


> You are making a strawman argument. Just because I think Russia is going to get what they want doesn't mean I support Putin. Look at any map that shows the parts of Ukraine that Russia controls and it is obvious this is almost over. The only thing that could prolong it is if the US pushes Zelenkski to continue to fight a war he can't win.


Nix Strohman - no Strawman.
What I miss in all your postings is any empathy with the suffering of the Ukrainians.
It seems your sympathy is on Putin's side.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

Hiro said:


> Russia is killing civilians in a non-hostile neighboring nation.


Yes, Russia - that is Putin - is comitting war crime after war crime.
Terrible!


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> You’re right, thinking that Russia is going to win doesn’t necessarily mean that you support Putin. I think Russia is going to win (something, at least), and I couldn’t possibly hate Russia/Putin/Communists more.
> 
> The fact that you’re rooting for Putin doesn’t come through in the fact that you think Russia is going to win. Your obvious support for Putin comes from _literally everything else you post on this topic_.
> 
> ...


I look for facts that explain what is actually happening, not the BS the media wants us to believe. Seasoned war reporters on the ground say Russia can flatten Kiev whenever they want to. Russia's strategy is to encircle a city, attack with missiles trying to get it to surrender. If they don't, the city gets flattened. Russia uses missiles rather than soldiers to conquer the city. Kiev is surrounded, the noose is tightening, and missiles are starting to flatten the city. Time is running out.

The Ukrainian military is taking massive losses, although you probably haven't heard that. 

What you and others argue is we should do what is morally right. I agree, but the US doesn't do that anymore. Just look at China and you see our major corporations and our government exhibit no morality when it comes to dealing with China. Are European countries going to do what is morally right and stop buying gas from Russia? Of course not.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Berwick said:


> Nix Strohman - no Strawman.
> What I miss in all your postings is any empathy with the suffering of the Ukrainians.
> It seems your sympathy is on Putin's side.


Empathy has nothing to do with who wins.

I have said Putin is wrong and I hope Ukraine wins. But I have not been posting about my feelings, but about my objective analysis of what is actually happening.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Just own it. You’re clearly rooting for Russia, it’s 100% transparent, and it makes you look silly to claim that you’re not.


Do you really believe that? I think Moon just tried to explain how we got here. You did a good job going fact to fact and he just got so married to the idea that Putin was some how justified. 


@MoonRiver I do not want to put words in your mouth, but your argument was either poorly articulated, or you do see Putin as being justified in his actions. Nothing the US, or NATO countries have done justifies what Putin did.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

HDRider said:


> Do you really believe that? I think Moon just tried to explain how we got here. You did a good job going fact to fact and he just got so married to the idea that Putin was some how justified.
> 
> 
> @MoonRiver I do not want to put words in your mouth, but your argument was either poorly articulated, or you do see Putin as being justified in his actions. Nothing the US, or NATO countries have done justifies what Putin did.


I have never tried to justify what Putin is doing. What I also haven't done is use wishful thinking to try to explain that Ukraine is winning.

I keep hearing in the media that Zelensky is winning the "communications" war. I agree, but that doesn't mean he is winning the actual war, which several people seem to be conflating. 

Watch this video and show me facts that prove what he is saying is not accurate. He may or not be completely right, but I haven't seen or heard anything that proves him wrong.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Do you really believe that? I think Moon just tried to explain how we got here. You did a good job going fact to fact and he just got so married to the idea that Putin was some how justified.
> 
> 
> @MoonRiver I do not want to put words in your mouth, but your argument was either poorly articulated, or you do see Putin as being justified in his actions. Nothing the US, or NATO countries have done justifies what Putin did.


Yes. I do believe that @MoonRiver is rooting for Russia. Having an “objective realist” view does not include taking for granted everything that one side says, while dismissing everything the other side says as propaganda. He (?) was quick to blame the US for what is happening there right now, completely truncating the history to exactly the dates that Russia propaganda starts their history of the international meddling in Ukrainian politics. When it was pointed out that the US/EU meddling was directly in response to well-documented immediately-prior Russian meddling, his response was that the media couldn’t be trusted, and then stopped talking about that point.

He claimed that the Baltics don’t provide a NATO landbridge (a blatantly lie that I’ve also seen in at least one article published on RT a couple months ago), and, when it was literally drawn out on a map for him, claimed that that land bridge didn’t matter because Russia could immediately and effectively negate it. So, when needing to justify Putin’s actions, Moon claims that NATO (a *defensive* alliance) is such an existential threat to Putin that he is only doing what he needs to do to survive against an oppressively powerful NATO but, when a fact is presented that runs counter to the RT narrative, Russia instantly becomes so powerful as to be able to dominate NATO, on NATO territory, whenever the need should arise.

His willingness to contort logic beyond any recognition of anything approaching the appearance of logic, whenever Russia needs to be projected as just, righteous, or simultaneously a victim and an insuppressible might, is patently ridiculous.

I’m a fan of playing devil’s advocate when the discourse is too one-sided, and do it often. I suspected that might be what it was at first, but his untenable, endlessly Russian-serving position can no longer be seen as just playing the devil’s advocate.

ETA: I don’t know where, but I got the impression that Moon was a woman. My apologies, Moon, if I ever incorrectly referred to you as she.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> I have never tried to justify what Putin is doing.


Horse****, you didn’t!
You provided numerous and lengthy posts as to why Putin needed to do this because of the “threat” of an expanding NATO, and how he was only countering western meddling and trying to give the Ukrainian people what they wanted. When countered that those were not excuses, your response was that they were excuses we rejected, but that were valid.

It’s all in the post history. Denying it now makes you look like a liar or a shill.



MoonRiver said:


> Watch this video and show me facts that prove what he is saying is not accurate. He may or not be completely right, but I haven't seen or heard anything that proves him wrong.


Facts?!? Most of that discussion is based on false premises and strawmen.

_00:16 - the “dominant narrative… that Ukraine has inflicted serious military defeat on Russia..”_
Literally NO ONE is saying that. EVERY report/opinion I’m seeing is that, if things continue this way without intervention, Russia will prevail. Yet, somehow, to craft a point, the “dominant narrative” is that Ukraine is winning?

_00:27 - “all the Ukrainian military forces are cut off and isolated in various towns and cities_”
Except… the ones we’re still able to get lethal military aid to. Except the ones being reinforced by armed international volunteers. They’re all cut off, but the Russians haven’t figured out how to stop the UPS trucks delivering Stingers to them? The Ukrainians want fighter jets, even though they just know that Russia can drop them as soon as their nose antennas clear the border? Russia has the battlefield completely dominated, so the armed and armorered volunteers must just be teleporting themselves across the border and into the “completely surrounded” cities?

_00:29 “all the remaining Ukrainian forces are able to muster is a ‘pinprick’ attack against something that is not very robust or dangerous”_
Are you not offended that this dirty American is calling the tanks, jets, helicopters and missiles of your beloved Russia “not robust or dangerous”? Because I’ve seen _recent_ videos of Ukrainian resistance destroying all of these things. The pile of videos is added to daily.

_00:55 “the problem for Russia is that Putin gave strict orders to avoid civilian casualties and property damage, and that’s slowing them down”_
Seriously?!?! Of yeah. All that video is just propaganda. I forgot.

That’s all in just the first minute of the video you challenged anyone to refute. Shall I continue with the remaining seven minutes?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Yes. I do believe that @MoonRiver is rooting for Russia. Having an “objective realist” view does not include taking for granted everything that one side says, while dismissing everything the other side says as propaganda. He (?) was quick to blame the US for what is happening there right now, completely truncating the history to exactly the dates that Russia propaganda starts their history of the international meddling in Ukrainian politics. When it was pointed out that the US/EU meddling was directly in response to well-documented immediately-prior Russian meddling, his response was that the media couldn’t be trusted, and then stopped talking about that point.
> 
> He claimed that the Baltics don’t provide a NATO landbridge (a blatantly lie that I’ve also seen in at least one article published on RT a couple months ago), and, when it was literally drawn out on a map for him, claimed that that land bridge didn’t matter because Russia could immediately and effectively negate it. So, when needing to justify Putin’s actions, Moon claims that NATO (a *defensive* alliance) is such an existential threat to Putin that he is only doing what he needs to do to survive against an oppressively powerful NATO but, when a fact is presented that runs counter to the RT narrative, Russia instantly becomes so powerful as to be able to dominate NATO, on NATO territory, whenever the need should arise.
> 
> ...


I could say the same about your arguments, but I have refrained from doing so because it serves no purpose. 

People can choose to believe whatever they want. Saying over and over that I want Putin to win is a lie. I have posted several times I hope Ukraine wins, but hope doesn't win wars, the military does. And Putin's military is winning this war.

I have 2 or 3 sources that over the years I have found to be reliable. All of them are saying Putin will win, that this is an East vs West war and that the West is using Ukraine to bleed Russia.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

How can I post a video here? I was sent an mpeg this morning of a father, son, and three dogs (all unarmed) in a minivan, stopped with soldiers a few hundred yards down the road. Out of nowhere, the soldiers open fire, hitting the father and at least one of the dogs. After a minute or so of the dog yelping and the son crawling around to the other side of the car to see if his father, who’s fallen out onto the pavement is alright. We all get the answer to that question when more shots hit the father and he stops flailing.

Later in the video, we see the father’s body in the ditch, next to the body of his son. Two dogs are dead in the car, and one is standing next to the son’s body, growling. A little later, the surviving dog is no longer.

Of course, it must have been Ukrainian soldiers dressed up as Russian soldiers, because Moon believes everything that reflects poorly on Russia in this is untrustworthy propaganda, and the commentators claiming that Russia is doing everything possible to avoid civilian deaths are speaking irrefutable truth.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> I could say the same about your arguments, but I have refrained from doing so because it serves no purpose.


Again with the bull****. You haven’t because you can’t. I have continually conceded that reports and reporting from both sides is suspect. I actually acknowledged the US meddling before you memory-holed the Russian meddling.

Quote that picture of my posts being completely one-sided as yours have. I can counter every pro-Ukrainian post with an in-kind caveat and or concession that there is corruption on our side and Ukrainian side, and that there have been loses by the good guys.

Put up or shut up.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

MoonRiver said:


> _Prime Minister Naftali Bennett told Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky that he recommends Ukraine take the offer made by Russian President Vladimir Putin to end the war - which includes many Ukrainian sacrifices - in a phone call on Tuesday, according to an official in Ukraine's government._​​_According to the official, Zelensky did not take Bennett's advice._​​_The source claimed that the phone call was initiated by Bennett. *"If I were you, I would think about the lives of my people and take the offer,"* Bennett reportedly said. _​​_Jerusalem Post_​​I agree with PM Bennett, with these exceptions. I would want a 3-day ceasefire to get the sick and wounded cared for and to get everyone out of Ukraine that wanted out. I would demand UN Peacekeepers be placed between Russian troops and Ukrainian occupied territory. I would ask for a neutral country to host the negotiations.


I don't know, live as a slave? Personally I would work at making the enemy die for their country.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> How can I post a video here? I was sent an mpeg this morning of a father, son, and three dogs (all unarmed) in a minivan, stopped with soldiers a few hundred yards down the road. Out of nowhere, the soldiers open fire, hitting the father and at least one of the dogs. After a minute or so of the dog yelping and the son crawling around to the other side of the car to see if his father, who’s fallen out onto the pavement is alright. We all get the answer to that question when more shots hit the father and he stops flailing.
> 
> Later in the video, we see the father’s body in the ditch, next to the body of his son. Two dogs are dead in the car, and one is standing next to the son’s body, growling. A little later, the surviving dog is no longer.
> 
> Of course, it must have been Ukrainian soldiers dressed up as Russian soldiers, because Moon believes everything that reflects poorly on Russia in this is untrustworthy propaganda, and the commentators claiming that Russia is doing everything possible to avoid civilian deaths are speaking irrefutable truth.











'Dad, Please Don't Die!': Harrowing Video Captures Deadly Russian Attack On Ukrainian Father And Son


A Ukrainian civilian says Russian troops opened fire on his vehicle, killing his father as they were evacuating from the town of Ivankiv in the Kyiv region.




www.rferl.org


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## robin416 (Dec 29, 2019)

I've noticed that many that say Ukraine should just surrender are also the same ones that said Covid was just the flu. That after nearly a million people died in the US alone.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I can appreciate that opinions on this topic don't fall along uniform ideological lines. What Covid was or wasn't shouldn't be a waypoint on future issues.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> I don't know, live as a slave? Personally I would work at making the enemy die for their country.


As soon as indiscriminate rocket and artillery fire hit the first Ukrainian city, it became difficult to understand what Putin thought he could gain that is worth what he will lose.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Hiro said:


> As soon as indiscriminate rocket and artillery fire hit the first Ukrainian city, it became difficult to understand what Putin thought he could gain that is worth what he will lose.


I listened to someone during a podcast who was in the room during a meeting between Putin and the US President sometime ago. He was going on as a politician does for sometime, sort of reasoning, sort of negotiating, mostly just listening to himself speak (meaning our guy).
Putin, who is known to have a flair for the dramatic, pulled his chair up close and hunched over as a father would while speaking to a child. Putin touched his own cheek and said "You think because your skin is the same as my skin that we think alike. We do not."
It is probably more accurate to count the number of Russians sent to their death in battle by their leaders during the last century than it is to count how many died fighting for their country. When trying to understand evil, one cannot use their own eyes.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

GTX63 said:


> I listened to someone during a podcast who was in the room during a meeting between Putin and the US President sometime ago. He was going on as a politician does for sometime, sort of reasoning, sort of negotiating, mostly just listening to himself speak (meaning our guy).
> Putin, who is known to have a flair for the dramatic, pulled his chair up close and hunched over as a father would while speaking to a child. Putin touched his own cheek and said "You think because your skin is the same as my skin that we think alike. We do not."
> It is probably more accurate to count the number of Russians sent to their death in battle by their leaders during the last century than it is to count how many died fighting for their country. When trying to understand evil, one cannot use their own eyes.


No doubt. But, generally when you have run a nation of 20+ years one way, it is noteworthy when there is 180 degree shift in risk tolerance.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

I live in the real world. Putin is going to win. You do not have to like it but you should be able to see that. Sooner or later the world will be divided up to a few powerful countries. The smaller countries will volunteer to join with a larger country or be absorbed into it. That is just the way life works.


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