# Can I do foundationless with this?



## Forest (Oct 14, 2010)

Hi beekepers, here's a newbie question. 
I am planning to get bees next spring and have ordered a hive kit from brushy mountain. I like the idea of foundationless beekeping, but the frames that come with the kit have grooves, rather than an edge, at the top. So I am debating whether I should just get foundation to get started, or improvise a guide. 
I have little wood slats that I could glue/nail into the top bar. They are 3/16th of an inch wide. From what I read, an edge works best as a guide for foundationless. Do you think 3/16 inch would be too wide to use? 
Alternatively, I could take off part of the top bar to make 45 degree angles from both sides. That would be a lot more work though given what tools I have available. I also wonder if it might destabilize the frames.
Third option would be to use bought foundation, and cut strips of that as a guide. How far would these need to project out of the top bar groove?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Forest said:


> Hi beekepers, here's a newbie question.
> I am planning to get bees next spring and have ordered a hive kit from brushy mountain. I like the idea of foundationless beekeping, but the frames that come with the kit have grooves, rather than an edge, at the top. So I am debating whether I should just get foundation to get started, or improvise a guide.
> I have little wood slats that I could glue/nail into the top bar. They are 3/16th of an inch wide. From what I read, an edge works best as a guide for foundationless. Do you think 3/16 inch would be too wide to use?
> Alternatively, I could take off part of the top bar to make 45 degree angles from both sides. That would be a lot more work though given what tools I have available. I also wonder if it might destabilize the frames.
> ...


*********************************
There's a 'reason' that they call it foundation and that is that it gives the bees an idea on where to 'start'. 
That said, those who have been around the little hummers for any period of time, will also tell you that bees
will put comb wherever they want to......whether you have perfect foundation inserted in your 
frames or not. However, I believe that you confusing two different types of beekeeping; those who 
utilize what are known as the Langstroth 10 (or 8) frame type of beekeeping and those who use the 
top-bar only or Kenyan type of beekeeping. Do the 'frames' that you have now, include 2 side bars 
that connect to the top bar and then in turn, connect to a bottom bar; so that you have a long 
rectangle type of 'completed' bar or do you just have a grooved type top bar? Either way, 
I would advise that you utilize some type of wax foundation to give the bees a place to start; 
otherwise they may go willy-nilly crossways to the direction that the bars are laid out in and 
tie up a hive in burr comb that you will be unable to get into without disturbing the bees 
greatly and causing you no little grief in the process. Some beekeepers to help with the budget 
and make what little they have go further, will take foundation and cut each sheet longways in half, 
so that you now have two pieces and then use melted beeswax in a tube to dribble a seal along 
the grooved top bar to fasten in place. Stretches limited resources twice as far, but it still gives 
the 'girls' a place to start and they will 'normally' fill in the rest if they are placed on the hive 
prior to or during a good nectar flow. Good luck with your endeavor with whatever way you decide to go.


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## no1cowboy (May 2, 2004)

you can use a strip of wood as a guide in the groove, lots on here use popsicle sticks or paint stir sticks. lang frame or top bar dont matter.


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## rwjedi (Jun 18, 2004)

I don't think this person is confused at all. Foundationless is becoming an accepted way of keeping bees in langstroths. If you have wedgetop frames you can pop the wedge turn it 90 degrees and then glue and staple or nail it back in. This is the method I have been using for years now. My advice is if you want to go foundationless, go foundationless. Don't get wishy washy and start with some foundation. You can do it, just keep an eye on them early so you can fix their "mistakes".


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## indypartridge (Oct 26, 2004)

There are a number of good reason to go foundationless. The fact that nearly all purchased foundation wax has been found to have levels of fluvalinate and coumaphos (active ingredients in Apistan & Checkmite), and those compounds have shown to have detrimental effects on queens is just one reason.

I've used both popsicle sticks and 1-inch strips of foundation as starter guides.


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## JRHILLS (Oct 27, 2010)

Since the one Brushy Mountain kit contains 10 sheets of foundation for the already assembled deep super, bottom board, frames, inner cover and telescoping outer cover, why not go ahead and use them? If you want to save money, don't order the assembled kit; order the same pieces individually unassembled. For foundation, do what most commercial beekeepers do and do it from the start - get the plastic one-piece Pierco frames and forget about going without foundation.


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

My girls really hate the all plastic foundation frames!! They'll only use them as a last resort. I also noticed that the foundation that has been built on has not been well attached. If you go with the plastic foundation, try to dip them again in beewax and then spray them with a syrup before putting the bees in there. Might help. I'm going to be re-working some of my frames and will be putting starter strips only at the top and hoping that they follow the right path. I'm even thinking of taking a dremil tool to some of the platic frames to see if they'll build their own foundation! Good luck!!


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## Forest (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks a lot for all your input! 

copperkid3, thanks for the advice- I have a kit for a Langstroth hive with 8 frame medium supers. I've heard about top bar, or Kenyan hives- that's not what I have. I understand that there are many good reasons to use foundation. However, I am intrigued by the ideas behind foundationless bee keping (natural cell size = decreased varroa mite susceptibility/ faster emergence, no pesticides in the wax, as indypartridge mentioned, etc.), and I'd like to give that a try. If it doesn't work, and they build all over the place, I guess I will learn from that mistake and try again with foundation.

No1cowboy- that's what I was trying to get at in my original post- my strips of wood are 3/16th of an inch wide; I was wondering if that was too wide. I guess paint stir sticks are wider than 3/16th, so that would mean it could work.

rwjedi- thank you for the encouragement! Unfortunately the hive kit that I got did not have the wedge top frames, so I have to improvise, but I am planning to get those in the future. How long would you wait before checking on the bees after installation, and how often would you check? Would 1-2 times per week sound ok to you? Do you just remove and destroy aberrant comb, or cut it out and fix it in a frame with rubber bands or similar?

Indypartridge- The absence of pesticides is one of the reasons why I want to try this. When you use popsicle sticks, do you put several next to each other, so that they extend along the entire top of the frame, or just one in the center?

JRHILLS- I didn't get the beginner's kit- that may not have been stated clearly in my original post- I have an un-assembled Langstroth hive kit with 8-frame medium supers (brushy mountain had them on sale back in October). This one does not come with foundation.

AverageJo- I have read the same thing about bees using the plastic foundation last- good to hear it from someone with first hand experience as well. 

Thanks again everyone for taking the time to share some of your knowledge!


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## Michael Bush (Oct 26, 2008)

Under your circumstances just add a wooden strip, either from popscicle sticks or paint sticks or the edge of a one by ripped.

How do you do foundationless?
* With standard wedge frame, just break out the wedge and nail it sideways. You were going to break it out and nail it anyway right?
* With grooved top bars, put popsicle sticks in the groove or a half of a paint stick or a piece of a one by ripped
* With drawn wax, just cut the center of the comb out leaving a row of cells around the edges
* With an old frame with no comb, just put it between two drawn brood combs
* With a plastic foundation/frame, just cut the center of the foundation out leaving a row of cells around the edge
* When making your own, cut a bevel on the top bar so it slopes down to a point. Also make them 1 1/4" wide.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm


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## Boris (Nov 18, 2010)

Forest said:


> ... So I am debating whether I should just get foundation to get started, or improvise a guide...


Hello,

You can install starter strips made from carton. For this purpose you can use any carton from a milk or a juice container.
More details are here:
http://www.beebehavior.com/foundationless_frames.php

Boris


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## Forest (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks MB and Boris, both posts were really helpful to me- I'm more of a visual learner, so thanks for the link to the images; that helped a lot, Boris.


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