# At What Age Can a Young Bull Start Breeding?



## Honeybee

We've got a Dexter/Angus cow and her bull calf. He's 9 months old and we were hoping we could use him to breed her back and then band him. (he's small enough and yet big enough to reach his dam) 

We're going this route because finding a bull small enough in our area has been hard. She's about 35 inches and even though he's only a quarter Dexter he's just about he size at 9 months.

See any flaws in this plan? Any suggeestions?

Next year I hope to get another cow and maybe a bull of our own to keep. :goodjob:


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## Karin L

Sounds like an adequate plan, if he suits you conformation-wise and his parents are GOOD breeding stock as well, then yeah, go ahead and use him. You'll have to beef him up a bit though, if you're not already doing so, to get him ready for the breeding season.

Most bulls reach puberty between 10 and 14 months of age, though it does vary widely between and within breeds. It is not uncommon either to have a bull start getting libido at 7 months of age.

Hope that helps.


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## cowkeeper

Your bull calf is probably fertile now, or will certainly be in the next few months. If your part Dexter cow, even though crossed with a larger breed, is only 35 inches, she is probably a carrier of the chondrodysplasia gene (dwarfism). If her calf has inherited her dwarf gene, and is used to breed a carrier cow, there is a small possibility of a non-viable calf (bulldog).
It is also possible that he is not a carrier of the defective gene, in which case the mating would not produce a bulldog calf.


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## KSALguy

wont know till you try,


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## genebo

My bull Brenn bred a small herd of mixed cattle when he was 7 months old.

Genebo
Paradise Farm


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## vg60

You are going to breed son to mother? Not a good idea.


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## Honeybee

vg60 said:


> You are going to breed son to mother? Not a good idea.


My only other option is a smaller/young Jersey bull a few miles away. Other than that no smaller cattle close by.


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## Honeybee

Thank you all for the replies, I really appreciate it. From what I've read here she may be bred already and off we go. If not I may consider the Jersey bull down the road. I think if she can successfully cross with a short horn, a smaller Jersey should be OK. 

What do you think?


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## Honeybee

To give you an idea of how small she is and what the bull looks like here are a couple of photos. Apparently her genes for color are strong too.

In the pics she is 4 yrs and her calf 5 months, we had just gotten them and I think she was thin. For size reference the black cow is a Buelingo/Dutch Belted yearling heifer. Sunshine the dexter cow is about 35 inches. Now a few months later her bull calf is as big as she is.


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## G. Seddon

Honeybee, you say your cow is a Dexter/Angus? Angus are black, as are most Dexters (also red and dun). Your cow appears to be almost white. I am puzzled! How long have you had her?


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## vg60

Angus can also be red 

Is she the one in the halter?


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## KSALguy

vg60 what makes you think breeding Mother to Son is a bad idea? that is actually a COMMON breeding practice in alot of breeding programs


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## vg60

In this part of the country it is not. Beef cattle are not bred back like that.

That is why there are 2 headed 4 eyed calves.


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## copperhead46

Good breeding practices encourage line-breeding, if both parties have the qualities you really want in your herd. This is a very common practice, a lot of breeders breed the bull back to his daughters, and if you have a good bull calf, breeding him back to his mother can get you some excellant results. 
As for your Dexter cow, I would wonder about her breeding though. I can't see an Angus and Dexter throwing that color calf. But, I sure don't know it all. She may be Dun, because I've seen some dun Dexters that were really light colored like that. Usually though the Angus is dominate and would get a black calf. Your bull calf is probably ready to use, Dexters mature pretty early, and it would get you a good small calf. The Jersey bull would also get you a good small calf, and with the other breeds crossed in, would be a good heifer to keep or bull to eat. 
Sorry, I seem to be going off in too many directions.............
P.J.


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## Sher

vg60 said:


> In this part of the country it is not. Beef cattle are not bred back like that.
> 
> That is why there are 2 headed 4 eyed calves.


LOL..you're kidding .. right?


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## KSALguy

vg60 i am not being ugly but that is a laughable old wives tale that needs to be corrected, breeding mother to son or Father to daughter (which actually IS done in beef herds) does not cause the freaks you claim, bad genetics and genetic anomolys cause these issues, not Linebreeding related stock, 

Line breeding and In breeding does not CAUSE anything, it REVEALS what is hidden in your blood line, then you can cull it out and not continue to breed it. 

you would be surprised to know how many top produceing beef operations breed their top bulls to the best of their daughters, i have a degree in Animal Science from a Farming university that ran a beef herd, so i am not just spouting off here. 

ALL and i do mean ALL of the pure breeds known today were developed useing these same techniques,


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## Honeybee

G. Seddon said:


> Honeybee, you say your cow is a Dexter/Angus? Angus are black, as are most Dexters (also red and dun). Your cow appears to be almost white. I am puzzled! How long have you had her?


We've had her for about 4 months or so. The people we got her from had her mother and her father and her grandfather over the years. I know Angus are black, but they were absolutely certain her father only could have been their Angus. She's actually a dun (creamy tan color) and if I remember correctly her skin is dark, but it was a nice bright sunny day when I took the pic so she might just look lighter. I'm not very experienced with cows and their colors, but I'm guessing basic genetics applies and I know black is generally dominant.


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## Honeybee

vg60 said:


> Angus can also be red
> 
> Is she the one in the halter?


Yes :goodjob:


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## Honeybee

KSALguy said:


> vg60 i am not being ugly but that is a laughable old wives tale that needs to be corrected, breeding mother to son or Father to daughter (which actually IS done in beef herds) does not cause the freaks you claim, bad genetics and genetic anomolys cause these issues, not Linebreeding related stock,
> 
> Line breeding and In breeding does not CAUSE anything, it REVEALS what is hidden in your blood line, then you can cull it out and not continue to breed it.
> 
> you would be surprised to know how many top produceing beef operations breed their top bulls to the best of their daughters, i have a degree in Animal Science from a Farming university that ran a beef herd, so i am not just spouting off here.
> 
> ALL and i do mean ALL of the pure breeds known today were developed useing these same techniques,



I asked my friend who's dad is a vet and raises beef cattle about line breeding. He said things like ... it is standard practice in many herds, he doesn't do it often, but does on occasion, they said it was a fairly quick way to improve your herd if you have GREAT cattle already and the one thing they said to remember was that you should make sure both parent and offspring have the best traits possible because both positive traits and negative traits are amplified in a line breeding. Oh and that offpring of the two HAS TO BE bred out of that line, breeding them back in is where you'd get the defects. 

It's OK to breed father/daughter, mother/son or half brother half sister, but offspring from those breedings must be bred out of that line for one generation, then that offspring can be bred back in. In other words at least half the genetic pool of the parents needs to be unrelated.

For you folks who do line breed, am I understand this correctly?

For my small homestead needs of raising milk and meat for feeding the family I think this line breeding would work OK. I'm still tempted by the Jersey prospect, but that would only be helpful to me if she produced a heifer out of the crossing. If she produces a little bull we wouldn't be as far ahead as if she is bred to her son who is more of a beef breed. And a heifer calf from breeding her to her son would be OK. 

I really appreciate the input everyone, I'm learning a lot and really enjoying the process. I can't wait until next spring no matter what we breed her to. Thank you.

I did not know Angus could be red. Does anyone know, when you breed a red to a dunn which is dominant?


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## tailwagging

I had the same problem.
My cow is 42 inches, my close to 2 year old bull is 32 inches too small or too young (for his breed,mini zebu) right now. Since I milk I HAD to get her settled and bought a "zebu" bull yesterday that is also 42 inches. I am not sure he is pure but he is the only one around old enough yet not too big or too small.


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## KSALguy

_"It's OK to breed father/daughter, mother/son or half brother half sister, but offspring from those breedings must be bred out of that line for one generation, then that offspring can be bred back in. In other words at least half the genetic pool of the parents needs to be unrelated.

For you folks who do line breed, am I understand this correctly?"_

while this is closer to the truth than not, its not entierly ture, you can continue to line breed for many generations with out bringing in new blood *IF * you have great stock, and *IF* you cull hard and responcibly, and *IF* you have a wide enough genetic base not to wind up in a bottle neck, 

for the beginner that has not had experiance with selective breeding and is just trying to get their animals to reproduce then yes the above theology is what you should follow, because a beginner wouldnt know what to do or expect if they continued linebreeding mediocer stock, 
again i have to stress the *FACT* that Inbreeding and Linebreeding *DOES NOT CAUSE* any bad attributes, it *UNCOVERS* the bad genetics already in your stock, just like it also *UNCOVERS* the *GOOD* genetics,


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## tailwagging

KSALguy said:


> again i have to stress the *FACT* that Inbreeding and Linebreeding *DOES NOT CAUSE* any bad attributes, it *UNCOVERS* the bad genetics already in your stock, just like it also *UNCOVERS* the *GOOD* genetics,


Here Here :clap:
Well said!


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## genebo

There is a herd in England that has been kept behind closed stone walls for hundreds of years. They haven't suffered for it. They have preserved the old genetics.

After an initial period of strict culling, all the bad traits should be exposed and eliminated. Thereafter it's almost like cloning.

Genebo
Paradise Farm


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## KSALguy

_"After an initial period of strict culling, all the bad traits should be exposed and eliminated. Thereafter it's almost like cloning."_

EXACTLY!! how else do you think Lab mice and rats got to where they are now? i have had my own line of "clone" chickens for a while untill a **** wiped them all out, they had no freak hatches show up once the bad genes were culled out,


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## cowkeeper

The trouble is with clones, or 'almost clones' they have no genetic diversity. They would be in danger of a disease wiping out all of the population.


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## vg60

I do not agree. Genetics cause problems, there for when you put the same genetics together you have problems. Farming university??? Does it have a name?


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## KSALguy

Hutchinson Community Collage, in the middle of Kansas, main focus of the school is Agriculture and Livestock, 

and you cant get out whats not already in, if you dont have poor genetics you cant get poor results, its not new math, 

and i didnt say Genetics, i said breeding practices, INbreeding and LINEbreeding, yes bad genetics is bad genetics and you wont find the bad genes with out looking for them and then CULLING them out,

yes breeding too closely to develop near clones does limit the genetic diversity, and yes it does make them vulnerable to certain things,


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## Gravytrain

vg60 said:


> I do not agree. Genetics cause problems


Ummm.....huh? :umno:




vg60 said:


> In this part of the country it is not. Beef cattle are not bred back like that.
> 
> That is why there are 2 headed 4 eyed calves.


What part of the country do you live in that beef producers do not line breed...does it have a name?


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## G. Seddon

This thread is five years old.


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## Gravytrain

Not anymore :ashamed:

Not sure how I dug this one up...woops.


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