# Russian soldiers killing civilians!



## Berwick (11 mo ago)

Russian soldiers killing civilians!
Ukraine war: Gruesome evidence points to war crimes on road outside Kyiv




> This report contains material some viewers will find disturbing
> We counted 13 bodies on a nightmarish stretch of road not much more than 200 yards long, between Mria and Myla, villages whose Ukrainian names translate as Dream and Sweetheart.
> Two of the dead are confirmed as Ukrainian civilians who were killed by the Russians. The others have not been identified yet - they lie where they were killed - but only two are wearing recognisable Ukrainian military uniforms.
> Our BBC team was able to get to the area, on the main E-40 highway as it approaches Kyiv, because Ukrainian forces had captured the sector only 10 hours earlier.











Ukraine war: Gruesome evidence points to war crimes on road outside Kyiv


The BBC finds the charred remains of civilians on a highway where Russian troops had stationed tanks.



www.bbc.com






Terrible!


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

It is a war. That is all part of war.


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

It shouldn't be, more so the tragedy.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

altair said:


> It shouldn't be, more so the tragedy.


I have heard people saying Russia is guilty of war crimes. What I don't understand if people can make rules for war why don't they make a rule you cannot go to war? They treat war like some game played by kids. It would be nice if the people making the rules were the ones who had to fight.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

Chief50 said:


> It is a war. That is all part of war.


Is that an excuse?


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

Chief50 said:


> I have heard people saying Russia is guilty of war crimes.


It is not just "people saying so".
It is so in truth, sadly enough.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

I'm sorry, but I've seen so many examples of decades old pictures being used to smear both sides in that mess, taking old pictures and saying they are from this latest conflagration. I don't know what to believe.

It could be one side or the other pushing their own agenda.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I agree with Pony. We can’t rely on pictures used by the media.

That said, any person who thinks war is or should be tidy might want to study history.


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

altair said:


> It shouldn't be, more so the tragedy.


It is only in the last 40 years or so, in the entire history of mankind, that civilians are off limits.

Funny thing, even now, only a few countries even attempt that level of combat collateral damage control.

Many countries and most factions target civilians first.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

In war, there is violence, death, and propaganda on both sides.

I do believe the Russians are targeting civilians.


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## Adirondackian (Sep 26, 2021)

I believe absolutely NOTHING that our media or government claims...ESPECIALLY in wartime. Lets have a look at a few of the other claims they made that are now established LIES;

1. Incubator babies [ complete hoax perpetrated by your government ]
2. WMD's. They never existed, the government and its media propaganda arm colluded in a lie
3. Gulf of Tonkin. Never happened. It was a lie.
4. Bin Laden threw his wife at the Seals who came to kill him. They admitted that never happened.
5. Bin Laden's body was "buried at sea, because all Muslims require burial at sea [ which is neither true nor possible since most of them live in the desert thousands of miles from the sea ].
6. Operation Northwoods; not a lie but actually way worse

Not war related but lets review some other, more recent lies;

!. Trump was a Russian spy. They told you that nonstop for 4 years. 2 year investigation proved the lie.
2. Riots are "mostly peaceful" and dont spread covid [ Trump rallies were super spreader events ]
3. Covid came from "bat soup" any other explanation is a "debunked conspiracy theory"

I could go on and on and on. You get the drift. Quoting government /mainstream media claims is a joke. They have ZERO credibility and are almost always lying.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

What are incubator babies?


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

It's war. People die in wars.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

Adirondackian said:


> I believe absolutely NOTHING that our media or government claims...ESPECIALLY in wartime. Lets have a look at a few of the other claims they made that are now established LIES;
> 
> 1. Incubator babies [ complete hoax perpetrated by your government ]
> 2. WMD's. They never existed, the government and its media propaganda arm colluded in a lie
> ...


You forgot Area 51 with the alien prisoners and their crashed spaceship. I mean, how else did we make such tech advances, other than retro engineering???


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## Adirondackian (Sep 26, 2021)

homesteadforty said:


> You forgot Area 51 with the alien prisoners and their crashed spaceship. I mean, how else did we make such tech advances, other than retro engineering???


Well IDK but that is a theory. The things I posted were all established facts.


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## Big_Al (Dec 21, 2011)

po boy said:


> In war, there is violence, death, and propaganda on both sides.
> 
> I do believe the Russians are targeting civilians.


The US and Britain routinely did that with heavy bombers in WW2.
Think of Dresden, and General Curtis Lemay's firebombing of Japanese cities.
As for Russia, I urge those that do not know to study the Eastern Front in WW2. Of course, they were simply repaying the Germans for what they did.


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## Adirondackian (Sep 26, 2021)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> What are incubator babies?


During the gulf war a propaganda point was put out to the public claiming that Hussein's troops were going into hospitals, pulling babies out of incubators and throwing them on the floor. This was pushed hard in the news and was used as justification for the war. It is now established to have been a complete fabrication.


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## Hard Aground (Oct 4, 2020)

Typical globalist-owned media propaganda, inciting viewers to wrath by making false claims in order to justify invasion of an oil-rich country... 

And if you think 19 Mideastern men armed with box cutters took down the WTC towers, well, I have some "oceanfront property" here in Alamogordo for sale... complete with a white sand beach, lol.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Big_Al said:


> The US and Britain routinely did that with heavy bombers in WW2.
> Think of Dresden, and General Curtis Lemay's firebombing of Japanese cities.
> As for Russia, I urge those that do not know to study the Eastern Front in WW2. Of course, they were simply repaying the Germans for what they did.


Of course, the allies were simply repaying the Germans for allied losses at the battle of the bulge and we had just discovered extermination camps for Jews.
Of course, we were just repaying the Japanese for Pearl Harbor.

Now there is a difference. The Japanese, Germans, and now the Russians were the aggressors.
No, I don't condone civilians being targeted.


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## Big_Al (Dec 21, 2011)

po boy said:


> Of course, the allies were simply repaying the Germans for allied losses at the battle of the bulge and we had just discovered extermination camps for Jews.
> Of course, we were just repaying the Japanese for Pearl Harbor.
> 
> Now there is a difference. The Japanese, Germans, and now the Russians were the aggressors.
> No, I don't condone civilians being targeted.


Actually, given what the Japanese did in Asia starting in the mid 1930's, they totally deserved what they got.
They had a sadistic, evil military.
I have studied WW2 for over 65 years. The Japs were medieval in their barbarism.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Big_Al said:


> Actually, given what the Japanese did in Asia starting in the mid 1930's, they totally deserved what they got.
> They had a sadistic, evil military.
> I have studied WW2 for over 65 years. The Japs were medieval in their barbarism.


What the Japanese Government did is unforgivable. But, the Japanese people were subjects. Getting people to hate a whole group of others is seldom beneficial to either groups. 

Anyway, go Ukraine! I read where they poisoned a bunch of Russians with loaded buns and another batch with spiked vodka. Amazingly enough, I somehow find myself lacking empathy for the victims. 

I may be devolving back to an earlier state of my existence.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Big_Al said:


> Actually, given what the Japanese did in Asia starting in the mid 1930's, they totally deserved what they got.
> They had a sadistic, evil military.
> I have studied WW2 for over 65 years. The Japs were medieval in their barbarism.


Yep


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

And to keep up with the Go Ukraine theme and introduce levity into this conversation (for those of you keeping up with what happens to Russian equipment that runs out of fuel):


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

Hard Aground said:


> And if you think 19 Mideastern men armed with box cutters took down the WTC towers


Yes, I think so.
So it was exactly.
And you should also think so.

But of course it is "cleverer" to believe some of those iditiotic conspiracy theories and feel "superior".


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

po boy said:


> No, I don't condone civilians being targeted.


Neither do I.
There can be no excuse for that.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

It is also an internet aberration to think that the conspiracy theories are all wrong.

Please plant a garden.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Forum rules prohibit name calling.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

New members should review the rules for GC. Insulting other members is against the rules and brings nothing to discussion.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

What do you think?
Did Putin know about those atrocities in Bucha?
Or did he not know?
Or maybe he specially ordered those atrocities?


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Berwick said:


> What do you think?
> Did Putin know about those atrocities in Bucha?
> Or did he not know?
> Or maybe he specially ordered those atrocities?


Killing civilians intentionally is what ineffective military members do when they lose.


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## Adirondackian (Sep 26, 2021)

Berwick said:


> What do you think?
> Did Putin know about those atrocities in Bucha?
> Or did he not know?
> Or maybe he specially ordered those atrocities?


I think it is uncertain as to whether that actually happened, or what the circumstances actually were. I think you dont know either, unless you were personally there and witnessed it you have no way of knowing. You are depending on mainstream media sources which have no credibility due to the history of lies.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Adirondackian said:


> I think it is uncertain as to whether that actually happened, or what the circumstances actually were. I think you dont know either, unless you were personally there and witnessed it you have no way of knowing. You are depending on mainstream media sources which have no credibility due to the history of lies.


The media does not lie in Germany


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

Adirondackian said:


> I think it is uncertain as to whether that actually happened, or what the circumstances actually were.


I think it is CERTAIN that those atrcocities actually happened.
The fact that Putin is a professional liar does not mean that everybody else is lying, too.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

Adirondackian said:


> I think you dont know either, unless you were personally there and witnessed it you have no way of knowing.


I most strongly object to this pseudo-clever wisdom.
What about Iceland?
Have you been there personally?
And now you come along and insist that Iceland exists?
How dare you?

_irony_

I hope you understand.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

Adirondackian said:


> You are depending on mainstream media sources which have no credibility due to the history of lies.


I most strongly object that it is the mainstream media that are usually lying.
And that some cheap stupid youtube videos are telling the truth.
In most cases it is the other way round.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

what about the journalist who saw the bodies of the mayor, her husband and son bound, shot at close range and thrown into a ditch. are they lying also? if that's the case we can't believe anything.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I agree with Pony. We can’t rely on pictures used by the media.


True.



Alice In TX/MO said:


> That said, any person who thinks war is or should be tidy might want to study history.


I don't think anyone is saying it is or should be tidy. No one is saying that this isn't what historically happens in war. The question some are asking is, "what is the point of killing innocent civilians?"


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Berwick said:


> I most strongly object that it is the mainstream media that are usually lying.


Despite their long, sad history of doing so?


Berwick said:


> And that some cheap stupid youtube videos are telling the truth.


As is often the case. People on youtube often point out MSM lies by cross referencing past statements with current ones. Or, separating the facts from the narrative.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Civilians are killed to create more fear. Fear is an effective weapon of war. They are also killed because a civilian becomes a combatant when she picks up a weapon.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Berwick said:


> What do you think?
> Did Putin know about those atrocities in Bucha?
> Or did he not know?
> Or maybe he specially ordered those atrocities?


And those who carried them out were just following orders?
Maybe it never happened at all?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

“Innocent civilians” is a term that loses its meaning in an actual combat situation.

In Viet Nam, the Viet Cong used children as bait and bomb carriers. The Taliban uses women as suicide bombers.

Tell me that you can tell an innocent civilian by looking at one.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

*It is all one great misery. *


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

Whatever you may say or not say:

I am on the Ukrainian side.
And when there is a contradiction, I rather believe the Ukrainian side and not Putin's side,
I say so on purpose: Putin's side!
Not Russia's side.
Because Putin's interest is not equal to Russia's interest.


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## Adirondackian (Sep 26, 2021)

Berwick said:


> I most strongly object that it is the mainstream media that are usually lying.
> And that some cheap stupid youtube videos are telling the truth.
> In most cases it is the other way round.


You can object as strongly as you want. The facts are undeniable, there have been established lies told to the public by the mainstream media. ALOT of them. Really has nothing to do with youtube or some other news source. I'm talking about mainstream media and their history of continual, undeniable, admitted, well established lies.

Theres really no argument here. Its a matter of historic record.


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## Adirondackian (Sep 26, 2021)

Berwick said:


> I think it is CERTAIN that those atrcocities actually happened.
> The fact that Putin is a professional liar does not mean that everybody else is lying, too.


 OK you think its certain, Id like to know how you know it's certain....besides what you were told by the media, which we have already established tells lies. Other than that, what is the source of your certainty?

As far as Putin and his lies, thats probably true. Im sure he lies to, but I listed many established instances where our government and media has told lies. This isnt speculation, or "conspiracy"....they lied. Its now a matter of record.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Hard Aground said:


> Typical globalist-owned media propaganda, inciting viewers to wrath by making false claims in order to justify invasion of an oil-rich country...
> 
> And if you think 19 Mideastern men armed with box cutters took down the WTC towers, well, I have some "oceanfront property" here in Alamogordo for sale... complete with a white sand beach, lol.
> 
> View attachment 108298


That's a lotta beach and the water is a beautiful blue color too. I have a quadrillion I can use for a down payment.


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## Adirondackian (Sep 26, 2021)

Berwick said:


> I most strongly object to this pseudo-clever wisdom.
> What about Iceland?
> Have you been there personally?
> And now you come along and insist that Iceland exists?
> ...


You put the claims of mainstream media on par with the existence of Iceland?? Thats a level of blind acceptance and conformity that has resulted in human atrocities on a global scale more than once. That is frightening to me.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

@Berwick I can't speak for German media but here in the states, we have all seen so many lies in the last ten years on media it's really hard to trust it. Reporters used to be trusted here as upstanding fact providers. Now they are regarded as more crooked than lawyers. 

It's not really the reporters fault either. It's the editors and the stock holders.


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## Docdubz (Aug 10, 2020)

Adirondackian said:


> During the gulf war a propaganda point was put out to the public claiming that Hussein's troops were going into hospitals, pulling babies out of incubators and throwing them on the floor. This was pushed hard in the news and was used as justification for the war. It is now established to have been a complete fabrication.


That particular lie has been reused for every war. The enemy can't just be the enemy, he has to be an unthinkable monster that tosses newborns in the air for target practice. As far as I am aware the only instances of an organized army doing such things, and there being proof of it, all occurred in Asia.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Berwick said:


> Yes, I think so.
> So it was exactly.
> And *you should also think so.*
> 
> But of course it is "cleverer" to believe some of those iditiotic conspiracy theories and feel "superior".


Why "should" someone think as you tell them to think? 

How are you the arbiter of what is "idiotic conspiracy" and what is Truth? 

You may think that you are more clever, but as you do not even support your notions with anything other than name-calling, how can anyone take you seriously?


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

Adirondackian said:


> You can object as strongly as you want.


Yes, I can!


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

Docdubz said:


> ... he has to be an unthinkable monster that tosses newborns in the air for target practice. As far as I am aware the only instances of an organized army doing such things, and there being proof of it, all occurred in Asia.


And now things as bad as that happen in Ukraine - by the Russian Army - thanks to Putin.
So it is.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

mreynolds said:


> @Berwick I can't speak for German media but here in the states, we have all seen so many lies in the last ten years on media it's really hard to trust it. Reporters used to be trusted here as upstanding fact providers. Now they are regarded as more crooked than lawyers.
> 
> It's not really the reporters fault either. It's the editors and the stock holders.


That may well be.
But here in Germany I 'd say that the so-called mainstream media are more trustworthy than the fringe media.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Berwick said:


> That may well be.
> But here in Germany I 'd say that the so-called mainstream media are more trustworthy than the fringe media.


Hah, define fringe. I first noticed something was up when I was a teenager. We had a train derail and blow up. It was out in the country and my house was 3 miles away as the crow flies. No one was evacuated. On the news that night, ABC world news tonight, they said the whole town had to be evacuated. 25000 people in all. 

2 months later a fertilizer explosion went off at the college greenhouse. That night it was said they evacuated the whole college. 2 people were hospitalized with mild burns. They were released before the evening news. Nope, they were "hanging by a thread" according to Peter Jennings. 

If you wonder where I get my half empty outlook with the news, you can start there because I have more. 

These weren't just omissions. They were outright lies. That's pretty much fringe in my mind.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Crickets @Berwick?

Why didn't you vote for my post? It is 1-0 for now.


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Here's a possibility.... When bodies in the streets are so disrespected and used for war propaganda..... Look at who is publishing and seeking an advantage with those images.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

Adirondackian said:


> You put the claims of mainstream media on par with the existence of Iceland?? Thats a level of blind acceptance and conformity that has resulted in human atrocities on a global scale more than once. That is frightening to me.


Let us agree to dis-agree.
As it seems, your understanding of humour is limited.
And "blind acceptance" is not my game.
Over and out.


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## Adirondackian (Sep 26, 2021)

Berwick said:


> Let us agree to dis-agree.
> As it seems, your understanding of humour is limited.
> And "blind acceptance" is not my game.
> Over and out.


Whatever you say


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## Big_Al (Dec 21, 2011)

On a related note, by a margin of 51% to 43%, more Americans would rather see Biden leave than Putin.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Big_Al said:


> On a related note, by a margin of 51% to 43%, more Americans would rather see Biden leave than Putin.


Biden did leave Ukraine.

Once his dad was no longer the Vice President, there was no longer any reason for Burisma to shovel buckets full of cash to him and “the big guy”.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

The way I have it figured war is bad, but not as bad as profiting from it. The US is the only power that could step in. We'd have to have bases, outside of the militarized zone. Wherever those bases were would see a huge boost to the local economy. 

Are there bodies in the Ukraine? Of course there are. Who killed them is only conjecture. Ukraine could have killed some of it's own people for a photo of for all I know. I wasn't there. I am wary of folks trying to gin up outrage. There are lots of incentives for people to gin up outrage. Hate it for innocent people getting slaughtered in rich people's games, but killing more innocent people sent as soldiers is not likely to fix it. 

Let Putin take Ukraine, Belarus, and Germany too. If that doesn't overtax their ability to wage war and control subjects then let them come here and try. Always better to play defense. Look how Ukraine is doing it.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Who is making a profit off this war?

For sure, Goldman Sachs. They're selling Russian debt, utilizing loopholes to get around sanctions.



https://news.yahoo.com/goldman-sachs-profits-ukraine-war-004757561.html



Russell Brand asserts that the IMF is making loans on which Ukraine will end up paying 300% interest. 

They are not getting US weapons at cost, either. The price on those is jacked up.

If Ukraine wins the war (which Zelensky says is the only outcome he will support), Ukraine will pretty much have to do whatever the IMF tells them to do. 

Again, this whole thing is so full of spaghetti logic intrigue, there is no way to figure out who the players really are, but it all seems to hinge on money, power, and greed.

To paraphrase an old saying, this war may not determine who is right, but what is left.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Maybe we can supply them weapons and training, and after a decade or two of living in a war torn country the only people left will be dangerous radicals with nothing but a cause they are willing to die for and then they can turn on us like we did with Afghanistan.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Maybe instead of ginning up outrage, to encourage US involvement, which would ultimately mean US money going into European countries because of the bases we would need to set up there, those European countries could just invade Russia. They are closer, and Russia would have to pull troops from Ukraine to defend themselves.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

barnbilder said:


> Maybe instead of ginning up outrage, to encourage US involvement, which would ultimately mean US money going into European countries because of the bases we would need to set up there, those European countries could just invade Russia. They are closer, and Russia would have to pull troops from Ukraine to defend themselves.


The Germans are busy making polls on the intraweb, protesting climate change, and sadly like some folks over here protesting what gender they claim isn't being accepted by everyone/anyone that doesn't even know them. Ironically they have been comfortable enough in winter doing that by paying the Russians for oil and gas with no back up. If it weren't for everyone getting killed and suffering, it would be comedic.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Wow the kleptocracy friendly crowd in USA that thinks Putin is a genius, look close at results of the firehose of lies and the brutality for personal gain. Do you really want to see your friends, relatives, and neighbors tied up, raped, and summarily exectuted in the name of POWER and GREED? Just to try and strike terror into other potential victims? If so please dont be my neighbor. Please go and live in Russia with your hero, take our former "useful idiot" president with you.


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## Big_Al (Dec 21, 2011)

War is big business.
That’s why the US has been in perpetual war since 1964.
Every missile sold/given to Ukraine is profit. 
we have Special Forces in various countries in Africa chasing terrorists and training locals - more profit.
Lobbyists make generous contributions to politicians, who then vote in favor of new weapon projects. When they retire, they themselves become lobbyists.
High ranking officers at the Pentagon are eager to spend tax payers money. On weapons, on troop deployments. When they retire, they sit on the boards of defense contractors.
President Eisenhower warned America about this.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HermitJohn said:


> Wow the kleptocracy friendly crowd in USA that thinks Putin is a genius, look close at results of the firehose of lies and the brutality for personal gain. Do you really want to see your friends, relatives, and neighbors tied up, raped, and summarily exectuted in the name of POWER and GREED? Just to try and strike terror into other potential victims? If so please dont be my neighbor. Please go and live in Russia with your hero, take our former "useful idiot" president with you.


I don’t see a lot of pro-Russia sentiment here, so I don’t know where you’re getting that.

I do recall a bunch of pro-Russia sentiment and action, though, from a couple of terms back… and a lot of you folks that were deep-throatedly supportive of it.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I don’t see a lot of pro-Russia sentiment here, so I don’t know where you’re getting that.
> 
> I do recall a bunch of pro-Russia sentiment and action, though, from a couple of terms back… and a lot of you folks that were deep-throatedly supportive of it.


Maybe he is self reflecting?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> Maybe he is self reflecting?


Heh.

Maybe the ‘80s called and wanted its politics back.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> Maybe he is self reflecting?


Self reflecting from communists is a rare commodity.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Hiro said:


> Self reflecting from communists is a rare commodity.


Projection, on the other hand, is not.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

Big_Al said:


> War is big business.
> That’s why the US has been in perpetual war since 1964.
> Every missile sold/given to Ukraine is profit.
> we have Special Forces in various countries in Africa chasing terrorists and training locals - more profit.
> ...


Lots of money to be made right here in the U.S. building machines for war. Most machines cost more than twenty times what they should. If you have ever worked at a place with a government contract you will be fired if you do the job right the first time. They get paid for making mistakes then removing the mistake and doing it right. But they do it wrong at least twenty times and get paid for each mistake.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Chief50 said:


> Lots of money to be made right here in the U.S. building machines for war. Most machines cost more than twenty times what they should. If you have ever worked at a place with a government contract you will be fired if you do the job right the first time. They get paid for making mistakes then removing the mistake and doing it right. But they do it wrong at least twenty times and get paid for each mistake.


My experience has been the directly the opposite. Folks get sticker shock on the prices of military armaments, and assume it’s waste, but most of the price inflation comes as a result of the procurement methods and the costs of R&D.

Say you’re one of four capable armored tank builders in the US, and the DOD issues a program for a new tank. The government is going to ask for your proposal, as well as those of your competition. When preparing your bid, you’re going to have to factor in all of your R&D costs, because the Department of State is going to decide who you can sell these tanks to, and when, if at all. And, assuming you’re on-par with your completion, you’re only going to win 1:4 of these programs. In the end, you have to amortize in the cost of R&D for this program, as well as the R&D for the three programs you didn’t win.

The government knows this sort of procurement method means they pay more per unit, but they also know they won’t ever get the most advanced weapons without it.

Getting paid to make mistakes is just BS. The government doesn’t like to see an open contract holder fail and go belly up, but they’re not there to bail you out either. If a contractor can’t deliver, because of mistakes or otherwise, they will face financial penalties, and most contracts have provision that, if the contractor goes belly up, the government can take the IP and hand it to a solvent competitor so that the program can continue.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> My experience has been the directly the opposite. Folks get sticker shock on the prices of military armaments, and assume it’s waste, but most of the price inflation comes as a result of the procurement methods and the costs of R&D.
> 
> Say you’re one of four capable armored tank builders in the US, and the DOD issues a program for a new tank. The government is going to ask for your proposal, as well as those of your competition. When preparing your bid, you’re going to have to factor in all of your R&D costs, because the Department of State is going to decide who you can sell these tanks to, and when, if at all. And, assuming you’re on-par with your completion, you’re only going to win 1:4 of these programs. In the end, you have to amortize in the cost of R&D for this program, as well as the R&D for the three programs you didn’t win.
> 
> ...


I worked in a shipyard that had a contract to build destroyers. The government would give the contract to build the ships to one shipyard and the contract for the design to another shipyard. We had built quite a few and used the same blueprints every time. The blueprints had many mistakes. We would have to build it according to the blueprints. We knew from years earlier what mistakes were in the blueprints but still had to build according the old prints. QC would come in and inspect all of the work. If it passed inspection we were told to tear it all out. If it didn't pass inspection we had to redo it. Then we would do it again according to the change order. Same thing as before. QC would inspect then tell us to tear it out and redo it to the next change. It wasn't unusual to do twenty or more change orders. One man on my crew decided instead of going through all of the work of doing it wrong he would do it right the first time. He had been working there for over twenty years. They called him i n and told him if he did that again he was fired. They got paid for every time they built it wrong, paid for tearing it out every time, and paid again when it was done right. That was twenty times the cost of labor and parts. They also had an inspection every month where they threw away every part needed for that ship and bought them back to continue work on the ship.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

homesteadforty said:


> You forgot Area 51 with the alien prisoners and their crashed spaceship. I mean, how else did we make such tech advances, other than retro engineering???


From watching Star Trek on TV. 😊

.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

Even during Nam, our boys and girls were not immune to being broken by what they were subjected to. Every war has people doing things we find appalling. No, it doesn't make it right, but it's real.

THEN there is the fact certain corporations that look a lot more like campaign entities or propaganda machines are well documented as making Grit and other publications look 100% credible and, now, people believe the things they pass to be fact akin to the gospel.

Note how little is being said about the atrocities certain types known for CERTAIN tattoos have perpetrated. One might wonder why no press is given to the Ukrainians who said it was Russians who dug them out, after they were trapped in rubble by "friendly" forces. 




Pony said:


> I'm sorry, but I've seen so many examples of decades old pictures being used to smear both sides in that mess, taking old pictures and saying they are from this latest conflagration. I don't know what to believe.
> 
> It could be one side or the other pushing their own agenda.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

I worked at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, the Naval Torpedo Station and Bangor Sub base. While at PSNS, they'd buy brass boxes for comm equipment. All the boxes had to be stress relieved, raising the price from about $30.00 to about $300.00. You could not drill them or weld them, because it would negate the stress relief. They came without holes or mounting ears.

While at NTS (later NUWES), I ordered a box of #4 stainless steel washers. I only needed a few, but would use them for other projects. I got called on the carpet. They all but threatened me with firing, because of the cost of the 144 washers. It was in the hundreds, I said, "FINE, in light of the recent$2,500.00 toilet seat and hammer crap, the public would love to know you paid that much money for washers I could buy at Ernst for4 cents each.

They dropped it like a hot potato.



Chief50 said:


> I worked in a shipyard. . . .


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Chief50 said:


> I worked in a shipyard that had a contract to build destroyers. The government would give the contract to build the ships to one shipyard and the contract for the design to another shipyard. We had built quite a few and used the same blueprints every time. The blueprints had many mistakes. We would have to build it according to the blueprints. We knew from years earlier what mistakes were in the blueprints but still had to build according the old prints. QC would come in and inspect all of the work. If it passed inspection we were told to tear it all out. If it didn't pass inspection we had to redo it. Then we would do it again according to the change order. Same thing as before. QC would inspect then tell us to tear it out and redo it to the next change. It wasn't unusual to do twenty or more change orders. One man on my crew decided instead of going through all of the work of doing it wrong he would do it right the first time. He had been working there for over twenty years. They called him i n and told him if he did that again he was fired. They got paid for every time they built it wrong, paid for tearing it out every time, and paid again when it was done right. That was twenty times the cost of labor and parts. They also had an inspection every month where they threw away every part needed for that ship and bought them back to continue work on the ship.


That makes sense, but it’s also a slightly different story than was implied in the first post.

The situation you describe could have arisen even if both the designing and the building shipyards were the same. The drawings would have been accepted as part of the Technical Data Package, and, once the guys on the dry dock discovered an error in the TDP, they wouldn’t have been able to walk upstairs and have the drawings changed without running an Engineering Change Proposal through Program Management.

If you were being forced to build something to a flawed drawing, that was either a failure of production to communicate the issue to PM, or failure of the PM to table the issue with the Program Office. If the issue is real, an ECP is drafted, accepted, and that phase of production roll-out is run again.

The whole reason you have First Article and Low-Rate Initial Production phases is so that things like that can be found out and corrected before full-rate production. If you, as the builder, discover errors in the design that cost you extra time and money to work around, your Program Manager is obligated to take the issue to the government so that it can be addressed, and, in cases where the designer is another firm (or the government), receive financial consideration for the extra time spent in correcting the issue that was outside of your firm’s control.

Any major issues should be found and addressed during FA, and, by the time you get to LRIP, any remaining adjustments should be minor. If you find yourself, as a contractor in LRIP or FRP, with tasks you have to perform that are incorrect, someone in the PM side failed. If you find yourself having to perform a task for Acceptance, and then re-do it “right”, you’re putting your company at risk of delivering non-compliant work.

I’ve seen some of those ECP debates get pretty heated, and I’ve seen outcomes all over the board. I’ve seen instances where Design screwed the pooch, and had to correct an issue on their own dime. I’ve seen instances where Production swore that the design was “wrong”, but turned out really just to be different than how they’ve “always done it”. I’ve seen instances where the correct design was just something that neither Design nor Production had factored in to their bid, and took it on the chin. What I’ve never seen was an issue that was taken to the PM table, described and investigated properly, and not addressed to an agreed-upon resolution that allowed everyone involved a path to compliance.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Sometimes the pork spent is so much simpler. Take Operation Blue Tarp. The bid is let out to a prime contractor. Then it is subbed out to another who subs to another, then another. 

That sub then subs it out to a company that has maybe 1 guy per county or 2 and they sub out to the ones that do the actual work. 

2004, the year of Katrina, Rita and Wilma. The prime received 160. Their sub received 130/135 ( can't remember the actual numbers). Their sub received 110 +/-. Their sub received 90 (black sheep's of the political families didn't get as much). Then then to 70, then down to me.

I got 35 a square to install. I supplied everything but the actual tarp. Including RV, food, nails, lathe, tape and all other expenses. I had 20 men. 

Why doesn't the government just hire the guy above me? Why do they need all these "prime's" above us? It's how they become millionaires on 200k a year is why.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Paumon said:


> From watching Star Trek on TV. 😊
> 
> .


I love that flip communicator! Roddenberry was a visionary.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> That makes sense, but it’s also a slightly different story than was implied in the first post.
> 
> The situation you describe could have arisen even if both the designing and the building shipyards were the same. The drawings would have been accepted as part of the Technical Data Package, and, once the guys on the dry dock discovered an error in the TDP, they wouldn’t have been able to walk upstairs and have the drawings changed without running an Engineering Change Proposal through Program Management.
> 
> ...


There was two ship yards building the destroyers. The government would let out the contract to design to one shipyard and the contract to build to another shipyard. When the first one was built the changes would have to be corrected before the ship could be christened. Everything had to be built right. All of the change orders came from the one shipyard. The other shipyard had to build the destroyer according to their prints. If it was wrong they would notify the first shipyard they needed a change order. They would send a change order and the other shipyard would take out everything they had built and build it again according to the change order. If it wasn't right they would do the process all over again. The shipyard could build a destroyer and have it christened. They then would build another. They would go back to the original blueprints and start the process all over again. Building it wrong, tearing it out multiple of times, rebuilding it multiple times. We built twenty destroyers and the last one was built just like the first. They would go back to the original blueprints every time. We asked why did they continue to do that as we already knew the changes needed. Their reply is it was a way for both shipyards to make more money and keep more people working. The first shipyard got paid about twenty times for providing the original print and all of the changes. The next boat could have been built from the finalized prints from the first boat but the first shipyard would only get paid for one set of blueprints and the other shipyard would only get paid for building the ship according to the finalized prints. Both shipyards were paid twenty times the money for building one ship.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

I have worked several different government contracts. There is so much waste. My first experience was with a company contracted to build fake sites for bombers to fake bomb. We built radar sites, tanks, even pontoon bridges all over Oklahoma and Arkansas. The contract was a cost plus contract. We would go to a site to build whatever it called for. We would set around talking until noon then call a restaurant to cater a steak lunch for the crew. They would have already paid for breakfast and dinner at the restaurant. We would go back to our motel that was paid for stopping at a liquor store first where everyone bought what they wanted. We would do this at every site and usually work for one to two months on each one. The last week we were on the job we would call in someone to do the job. We would go to another site to start all over again. We were paid perdeim when on the job but the contract paid for everything we wanted. We had credit cards for everything. My job was killing snakes. Some of the people in the crew was scared of snakes and if they saw one I would go out and kill the snake. The company that got the contract was a company my father and his friend thought up to get the contract. They got the contract because they were friends with the people who let out the contract.

One other government contract I worked on was similiar to these two. All were done the same way.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Chief50 said:


> …We asked why did they continue to do that as we already knew the changes needed. Their reply is it was a way for both shipyards to make more money and keep more people working. The first shipyard got paid about twenty times for providing the original print and all of the changes. The next boat could have been built from the finalized prints from the first boat but the first shipyard would only get paid for one set of blueprints and the other shipyard would only get paid for building the ship according to the finalized prints. Both shipyards were paid twenty times the money for building one ship.


So the shipyard you worked with conspired with the other to defraud the government. Got it.




Chief50 said:


> I have worked several different government contracts. There is so much waste. …The company that got the contract was a company my father and his friend thought up to get the contract. They got the contract because they were friends with the people who let out the contract.
> 
> One other government contract I worked on was similiar to these two. All were done the same way.
> 
> ...


…and your father set up a nepotistic company that routinely defrauded the government. Nice.

What you just described was equivalent to welfare fraud, except on a corporate level, and is just as disgusting and shameful.

I’ve worked a lot of government contracts as well; everything from COTS to TDP-builds to cooperative spec designs. I’ve never actually witnessed fraud in the execution of a government contract. The companies I’ve worked with were all too concerned with their reputation and ability to continue pursuing government business to risk it all playing reindeer games.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> So the shipyard you worked with conspired with the other to defraud the government. Got it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, they did not conspire to defraud the government. The government would only allow the contract if it was done that way. One shipyard was in the south and the other was in the north. It was a way to keep workers on the job in both states. They finally came up with an idea to build the front part of a ship in one ship yard and the back part in the other. When the back part was finished they cruised it up to the other ship yard and hooked them together. Just another way to spend money. Either ship yard could have built the entire ship.

My father and his friend put in a bid for the contract. It is done in government contracts all of the time, both on the federal and the state level.

I think you didn't know what was going on in the places you worked. One of the above ship yards had another ship yard inside of the main one. They built bass boats. Used workers who were paid by the government and parts bought by the government. It went on for many years but was finally caught by greedy people wanting a bigger pay check. Also had a contract with a garbage company who would pick up the trash and sell it back to the government. Usually once a month they would throw all of the hardware used in building the ships in the trash. Then they would pay the garbage company to bring it back to them.

The government spends too much money lining each others pockets. Do you know how much a destroyer costs?

Also worked at a place where they would dig a hole and bury all of their inventory every four years. To keep their budgets high and to get a higher budget raised they had to speen every cent in their old budget every year. At the end of four years they had so much extra inventory they would dig a hole, bury it, and start buying again.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

I worked with some pretty smart cookies, while working at Keyport (NTS). Though smart as they came, they were human and missed details from time to time.

The engineers knew I was a notorious doodler, note taker, and so on, but always got jobs done and on time. They liked a lot of my doodlings, so "hired" me out of the electronics assembly area to build prototypes off napkins and so on.

One of the projects was, a lightning ground monitor system for Nanoose Island, where a lot of the torpedo testing was done. They used a cable from the computer room and dangled it in the seawater, to carry off lightning strikes that could wipe out millions of dollars in equipment, and create all manner of expensive chaos.

If the cable broke, due to tide action, the computers and other electronics would lose their protection. As such, they wanted to be able to test the cable, to insure it was capable of conducting off a surge in power.

When I got done building the monitor, the head engineer tested the device and was happy with the result. As he headed out to hope on the float plane, I asked him if he had his tide tables. Bewildered, he asked why. 

I reminded him he said the lightning ground was just a cable with a plate on the end and it rested underwater. The monitor would indicate the cable was good as long as the cable, even with the plate and part of the cable broken off, as long as it was in the water. As such, if the cable was broken at the mid tide level, but was tested at high tide, it would show good, but would not work with tides below where it was broken.




GunMonkeyIntl said:


> [T]he situation you describe could have arisen even if both the designing and the building shipyards were the same.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I have relatives who worked for govt run airline businesses. At the end of the fiscal year they would clean out all the supply closets and throw everything away. Then they would order new supplies for the next fiscal year. If they ordered fewer supplies their budget would be cut so much they would not be able to order necessary supplies.

The govt contracts are set up so that there is waste. The US govt awards waste and sloppiness. The efficient and cost effective operations are pared down so they have barely functional budgets.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Danaus29 said:


> I have relatives who worked for govt run airline businesses. At the end of the fiscal year they would clean out all the supply closets and throw everything away. Then they would order new supplies for the next fiscal year. If they ordered fewer supplies their budget would be cut so much they would not be able to order necessary supplies.
> 
> The govt contracts are set up so that there is waste. The US govt awards waste and sloppiness. The efficient and cost effective operations are pared down so they have barely functional budgets.


That absolutely does happen, but I’ve seen that from various divisions of private companies as well. With a large, complex budget, the Finance department often doesn’t take a deeper look into the needs of the smaller cogs than to see what they spent the previous year, and apply any blanket growth or retraction to it.

Normally the practice is to use up/discard the excess expendables and replace them right _before_ the end of fiscal year. That way, they get to buy expendables that they know they apparently over-budgeted for with the money that is about to go away, and not burden next year’s budget with it.

I never threw anything away, but I do look for planned expenses for the next year that I can arrange and pay for on the current year, when nearing the end of a fiscal year. That way I have more breathing room for unexpected expenses that pop up in the new budget. There’s a big difference between being wasteful and strategically sand-bagging.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Chief50 said:


> No, they did not conspire to defraud the government. The government would only allow the contract if it was done that way. One shipyard was in the south and the other was in the north. It was a way to keep workers on the job in both states. They finally came up with an idea to build the front part of a ship in one ship yard and the back part in the other. When the back part was finished they cruised it up to the other ship yard and hooked them together. Just another way to spend money. Either ship yard could have built the entire ship.


I didn’t say that the arrangement of having two shipyards work on projects together was fraudulent. The government, whenever possible, maintains two or more redundant and/or cooperating facilities for all of its armament needs. The conspiring to defraud the government was this part:


Chief50 said:


> …They would go back to the original blueprints every time. We asked why did they continue to do that as we already knew the changes needed. Their reply is it was a way for both shipyards to make more money and keep more people working…


The government does a lot of wasteful things, which is exactly why the government procurement system has largely switched over to contractors. A competitive bid system allows price shopping, vs defaulting to whatever a PM says something will cost, and contractors are easier to transparently audit as the FAR/DFAR lays out specific record keeping and reporting procedures.

The FAR/DFAR also has provisions for the mandated communication of issues found. If the shipyards, in your case, were intentionally withholding discovered issues in the TDP, just so they could log more man-hours, that is fraud.



Chief50 said:


> My father and his friend put in a bid for the contract. It is done in government contracts all of the time, both on the federal and the state level.


Understood, but you specifically said this was a cost-plus contract, and that you would intentionally sit around for weeks, before hiring someone to do the actual work at the end. You also said that you had credit cards on which you could buy anything you wanted and bill it back to the government.

The FAR/DFAR provisions included with any contract specify that work must be in earnest and accurately reported, and lays out restrictions on what can and cannot be tallied as cost in a cost-plus. If you were charging for work not done, and buying things off the schedule, and somehow working them into your cost report, someone was lying.

Also, per-diem rates are set by the GSA, rated per location. I’ve lived in per-diem all of the country, and dozens of OCONUS locations. If you have a free hotel breakfast, lunch at Subway, and dinner at Applebees, you’re barely skating in under the limit. If meals are catered, as you said, per-diem budget for the Prime is commensurately pro-rated.

So, no, if you were on a cost-plus contract, subject to GSA per-diem, and had all three meals already paid for (either by the government, directly, or the prime) you didn’t have a full per-diem to dump at the liquor store.



Chief50 said:


> I think you didn't know what was going on in the places you worked.


I don’t think you did. Government work can be very profitable, and comfortable to live in, and there are no doubt instances of shenanigans, but I’m intimately familiar with the structure and execution of government defense contracts, all the way to the level of direct liaison to the PM, and what you describe either didn’t happen, or was the result of fraud, which the FAR/DFAR clearly spells out… and you say it wasn’t fraud.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Folks get sticker shock on the prices of military armaments, and assume it’s waste, but most of the price inflation comes as a result of the procurement methods and the costs of R&D.


That and some incredibly demanding specs. We built engines for Navy tenders (I think it was tenders). Those engines had to survive a drop and submersion and keep running the whole time.



GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Getting paid to make mistakes is just BS.


It is indeed.



Chief50 said:


> The blueprints had many mistakes. We would have to build it according to the blueprints. We knew from years earlier what mistakes were in the blueprints but still had to build according the old prints.


That defines the bureaucracy that is the US government



mreynolds said:


> Take Operation Blue Tarp. The bid is let out to a prime contractor. Then it is subbed out to another who subs to another, then another.
> 
> That sub then subs it out to a company that has maybe 1 guy per county or 2 and they sub out to the ones that do the actual work.


That defines crony capitalism that is the US government


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I didn’t say that the arrangement of having two shipyards work on projects together was fraudulent. The government, whenever possible, maintains two or more redundant and/or cooperating facilities for all of its armament needs. The conspiring to defraud the government was this part:
> 
> The government does a lot of wasteful things, which is exactly why the government procurement system has largely switched over to contractors. A competitive bid system allows price shopping, vs defaulting to whatever a PM says something will cost, and contractors are easier to transparently audit as the FAR/DFAR lays out specific record keeping and reporting procedures.
> 
> ...


Just because you do not know of something that happened does not mean it didn't happen. The reason there is so much wide spread theft and overspending on government contracts is because people like you know little about what is happening right under their nose. In some ways that is a good thing and in some ways that is a bad thing.

One of the shipyards had a large disconnect mounted on the inside wall of the shipyard. A crew of people spent one summer running cable to the box. What was really happening was they had bored a hole in the back of the disconnect and were pushing the cable through the hole. A large uhaul truck was backed up to the wall. Inside the truck were people who were pulling the cables inside of the uhaul truck, cutting the cable in lengths and loading the cable up. Copper was selling for a good price then and they had a pretty good payday along with their pay from the shipyard and from the cable they stole.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Chief50 said:


> Just because you do not know of something that happened does not mean it didn't happen. The reason there is so much wide spread theft and overspending on government contracts is because people like you know little about what is happening right under their nose. In some ways that is a good thing and in some ways that is a bad thing.
> 
> One of the shipyards had a large disconnect mounted on the inside wall of the shipyard. A crew of people spent one summer running cable to the box. What was really happening was they had bored a hole in the back of the disconnect and were pushing the cable through the hole. A large uhaul truck was backed up to the wall. Inside the truck were people who were pulling the cables inside of the uhaul truck, cutting the cable in lengths and loading the cable up. Copper was selling for a good price then and they had a pretty good payday along with their pay from the shipyard and from the cable they stole.


I didn’t say that the things that you claim to have done with your father’s company didn’t happen. I’m pointing out, factually, that those things would constitute fraud.

I understand that you expected to relay your experiences as an example of waste within the government, but what you actually did was tell us all about how you defrauded the government and, by extension us taxpayers. I’m not doubting that it happens. I’m sure it does. It’s disgusting, and those who do it should be ashamed of themselves. Thinking that every contractor does it does not excuse the shamefulness of it.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I didn’t say that the things that you claim to have done with your father’s company didn’t happen. I’m pointing out, factually, that those things would constitute fraud.
> 
> I understand that you expected to relay your experiences as an example of waste within the government, but what you actually did was tell us all about how you defrauded the government and, by extension us taxpayers. I’m not doubting that it happens. I’m sure it does. It’s disgusting, and those who do it should be ashamed of themselves. Thinking that every contractor does it does not excuse the shamefulness of it.


Just like so many people you failed to read what I said. You are so full of yourself and how important you think you are that you failed to understand what I was saying. My father was paid to do a job. I was hired to do a job. We both did what we were paid to do. The person giving out the contract told us exactly what he expected us to do. Just as you have a boss he was ours. If you would have been reading my post instead of thinking what you could post you could have seen you have several things mixed up.

The FAR/DFAR provisions included with any contract specify that work must be in earnest and accurately reported, and lays out restrictions on what can and cannot be tallied as cost in a cost-plus. If you were charging for work not done, and buying things off the schedule, and somehow working them into your cost report, someone was lying. 

We did exactly what the job called for. We had receipts for everything we did. What you failed to see is the person letting out the contract listed everything we did and we reported to him. Since he was a government employee who controlled the contract you can see how crooked government employees can be. Maybe that is hitting a little too close for you and you have to put the blame on someone who was not a government employee. 

Another thing you seem not to have any knowledge of is a government contract states exactly what you are being hired to do. It is the failure and lack of work ethic of the government employee who does not do their job. Most of them were not hired for their experience or knowledge. They were hired because of who they know or who they paid off. It is because of the dishonesty of government employees that so much money is wasted because they are dishonest and a disgrace to the country for them to take a paycheck at the same time they are lining their pockets with the tax payers money.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

po boy said:


> Of course, the allies were simply repaying the Germans for allied losses at the battle of the bulge and we had just discovered extermination camps for Jews.
> Of course, we were just repaying the Japanese for Pearl Harbor.
> 
> Now there is a difference. The Japanese, Germans, and now the Russians were the aggressors.
> No, I don't condone civilians being targeted.


To clear on thing up that i do know the facts of:

In WWII the Germans were bombing the hell out of the British Airfields in preparation to an invasion. Churchill needed to relieve the pressure on the British Airforce. He cam up with the idea that pissing off the Germans just might work. He than ordered the Airforcew to bomb some of the nicest cities in Germany and the Schwartzwald forest. It worked and the Germans began bombing the English cities, relieving the airforce of the attacks on the airfields.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

HDRider said:


> The media does not lie in Germany


 I hope this is sarcasm


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> I hope this is sarcasm


It most certainly was.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Berwick said:


> I think it is CERTAIN that those atrcocities actually happened.
> The fact that Putin is a professional liar does not mean that everybody else is lying, too.


First, I am definitely not on the Putin side. 
That said, I do not trust on iota of the propaganda being spewed by ANY side out there now.

WRT the dead civilians, the Ukrainian Prez was bragging not so long ago that he was arming civilians and stationing them on rooftops, apartment buildings, behind trees,... you get the picture.

Now, imagine yourself as a tanker and a missile or gunfire rains down on you from one of the aforementioned roof tops, do you care to check who fire it, or who else may be around?

Hell no, your butt is way more important to you than anyone's else's and you fire on that rooftop. 

Your personal survival tends to be number one for most, even for the church lady...

Atrocities are for those who have an agenda very often.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> First, I am definitely not on the Putin side.
> That said, I do not trust on iota of the propaganda being spewed by ANY side out there now.
> 
> WRT the dead civilians, the Ukrainian Prez was bragging not so long ago that he was arming civilians and stationing them on rooftops, apartment buildings, behind trees,... you get the picture.
> ...


Kinda hard to claim that when many of the victims hand their hands bound behind their back... don't cha think???


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

homesteadforty said:


> Kinda hard to claim that when many of the victims hand their hands bound behind their back... don't cha think???


…and the numerous instances of attacks on evacuation convoys and the train stations. The evacuation route negotiations were such that Russia was supposed to be at sufficient standoff that any insurgents hidden amongst the evacuees wouldn’t have been able to land any direct-fire attacks. If an army, in that situation, is genuinely interested in letting civilians go, there are ways to avoid any risk from small arms. We’ve employed similar tactics in recent wars, and established observation of the convoys from a safe distance, and, when an hidden insurgent breaks off from the convoy, as part of a repositioning maneuver, continue observation and interdict them a safe distance away from the evacuation route. 

Of course, it is possible that they were “friendly”, false-flag attacks, but, given Russia’s demonstrated recent history for this sort of thing, I do tend to believe they are legitimate, intentional atrocities.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> legitimate, intentional atrocities.


There is a phrase we maybe should reconsider


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Chief50 said:


> Just like so many people you failed to read what I said. You are so full of yourself and how important you think you are that you failed to understand what I was saying. My father was paid to do a job. I was hired to do a job. We both did what we were paid to do. The person giving out the contract told us exactly what he expected us to do. Just as you have a boss he was ours. If you would have been reading my post instead of thinking what you could post you could have seen you have several things mixed up.
> 
> The FAR/DFAR provisions included with any contract specify that work must be in earnest and accurately reported, and lays out restrictions on what can and cannot be tallied as cost in a cost-plus. If you were charging for work not done, and buying things off the schedule, and somehow working them into your cost report, someone was lying.
> 
> ...


I did read exactly what you said; there arose the problem. The substance of our discussion has absolutely nothing to do with how “important” I might think I am. 

What you wrote was very clear. You said that you worked for a company that your father stood up to pursue government work. You said that he secured and executed a “cost-plus” contract vehicle. You then described a bunch of things that you did that included charging for expenses that the FAR and the DFAR prohibit from cost-plus contracting vehicles, for obvious reasons (by weight of both regulation and law), including sitting around for weeks before hiring someone to come in and quickly do the actual work.

That’s fraud, no matter how you try to slice it. If your KO was honest and upstanding, the only way you got away with those things was by lying about them. If your KO was the one (as your last post implies) ordering you to do those things, then he was committing fraud, with your father’s company party to it, and your father’s company further in breach of contract FAR/DFARS clauses for not “whistleblowing” on the fraud his KO was demanding he commit.

It’s one thing to share a disgusting story about witnessing waste and corruption in government contracting. The story you told was of you participating in it.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> There is a phrase we maybe should reconsider


How do you mean?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> How do you mean?


I don't think you wanted to label "intentional atrocities" as legitimate, but rather, as real or maybe actual intentional atrocities


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> I don't think you wanted to label "intentional atrocities" as legitimate, but rather, as real or maybe actual intentional atrocities


I guess legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. If it turns out that Putin or his generals did order those specific attacks, there’s no doubt that the did it specifically for the effect an atrocity would bring; neither spurious nor accidental, legitimate.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

This dude has the best available guess work/thoughts that I have read. He owns his mistakes and I cannot really find too many flaws in his SITREP from today:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513354960469213188


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Hiro said:


> This dude has the best available guess work/thoughts that I have read. He owns his mistakes and I cannot really find too many flaws in his SITREP from today:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513354960469213188


That is thorough, and does seem logical. That strategy is only assured success if the prior Russian tactical missteps were either feints or have been corrected, though. I think anyone looking at that proposed battle plan, eight weeks ago, would have assumed it would succeed, and in a matter of a few days. With the unexpected performance from both sides, it’s hard to predict the outcome anymore.

Have you been following him? Has he said what he thought the Kyiv campaign was all about / what happened there? Feint or fvck-up?


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> That is thorough, and does seem logical. That strategy is only assured success if the prior Russian tactical missteps were either feints or have been corrected, though. I think anyone looking at that proposed battle plan, eight weeks ago, would have assumed it would succeed, and in a matter of a few days. With the unexpected performance from both sides, it’s hard to predict the outcome anymore.
> 
> Have you been following him? Has he said what he thought the Kyiv campaign was all about / what happened there? Feint or fvck-up?


The first time I recall reading in detail one of his posts was about a week into it. He was about like every other "expert" amazed it wasn't over yet. I never thought it made sense strategically and was likely a logistical impossibility from the get go. 

But, he owned his early overestimation of the Orcs and is amazed at the Ukrainians defense. The reaction and resupply from the Western nations was something that I don't think others counted on even if they are only 3/4 measures of resupply and support.


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> ------
> 
> It’s one thing to share a disgusting story about witnessing waste and corruption in government contracting. The story you told was of you participating in it.


Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees.

The reality is that 80+% of our federal government is wasteful and corrupt. You can be honorably executing a contract for a program that should not exist and is a waste and theft.

You have the military industrial complex, and then the intelligence complex, the education complex, the healthcare complex, the agricultural complex, and on and on.

Our Founders understood that government needed to be limited, because there is always a tendency for corruption and waste. There used to be a Constitution which limited the size of government, but long ago we chose to ignore it. Now anything which can be construed as a threat or a need is justification for more government, either warfare or welfare.

We have to go clear to the other side of the earth to find what we deem as threats to our national security (while our borders are overrun), and we bomb and kill thousands of civilians. Yet when Putin sees threats right across his border, we consider him a madman, and are just itching to get in a fight.

We spend more on defense than the next 11 countries combined, but are told it is still not enough. Maybe 50 times more would be good, or 100X? Should we give out trillions more in contracts, as long as they are honorably conducted? It is still theft.

People are easily frightened and manipulated. Very few ever learn enough to know what is really going on.

I was a Major in the Air Force when I determined in 1997 that our overseas actions were bogus and made our security worse. People don't like us messing with them, just like we wouldn't. We provide the motivation for terrorists. We create the problem, then offer the solution, at great cost. Which is one reason I separated from the military and gave up my millions in retirement (likely was headed for Colonel). I took a job in a warehouse. Not many willing to do that. Guess I wasn't very smart.

My brother has done very well in the FSA giving loans to farmers in another bogus program. Nice retirement, got himself a nice farm, etc.

Anyway, if you look deep enough, pretty much every war and meddling in foreign affairs and government program makes things worse, and wastes countless trillions of dollars. But Americans don't care about giving up their wealth, as long as they have a cell phone and a Big Mac. Some know what's going on, and are making money off the bogus programs/wars, some know what's going on and don't care, some don't want to know what's going on, and some are incapable of learning what's going on.

If you really want to determine if your government program or action is not fraudulent, look for its justification in the Constitution, and read what the Founders had to say. But it could cost you money.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it*."*
-Upton Sinclair


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

homesteadforty said:


> Kinda hard to claim that when many of the victims hand their hands bound behind their back... don't cha think???


What I mean to say is that I do not trust either side, nor the MSM. 
MSM plays us daily (covid, hunter, biden, capitol riots), russia (well, clinton, russia just being russia) has their agenda, and Ukraine (biden, hunter, very corrupt gov) has not exactly been upfront with US either.
I have several Ukranian friends. They are mad as hell about Russia, but they also do not trust the MSM nor Zelinskey.


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