# Severely anemic goat - vet visit



## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

Decided to start a new thread from the Johnes discussion. 

( http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/goats/463304-johnes.html )

Please let me know if you have any ideas.

Brief recap:
_Eight+ year old pet Saanen wether named Squirt, discovered 5 days ago with eyelids very pale. Penned him up, wouldn't eat enough to stay alive, but would drink water. He had been wormed 3 weeks earlier with Quest (moxidectin=Cydectin).

We couldn't get a fecal sample, so I gave him another dose of Quest just in case he had spit it out before, held his own for a couple of days, then quit eating, eyelids became snow white. Decided it might be liver flukes, so I gave him 3.5 cc Ivomec Plus SQ. This goat has now been wormed out the wazoo, but you couldn't get the Plus part without the Ivomec part. Did a flotation fecal on him last night and found ZERO worm eggs and only 2 coccidia oocysts. _ 

Fast forward to today:

Got the vet out for a farm call. As anticipated she (the vet) was absolutely convinced it was worms, even though I told her what he had had already and the fecal result. I was not about to let her give him MORE worm medicine. She insisted on running back to the office to do a fecal (and blood test). I bet her $500 it wasn't worms (she didn't take the bet  ). Came back reporting only a couple of coccidia oocysts.

She said his blood count was "below the level of death." I didn't understand what count she was talking about, but wasn't surprised. So she did a blood transfusion from one of the other goats, plus it looked like about 2 pints of lactated ringers solution, IV. He has started eating a little again. She said if he went back to being anemic, it was something very serious, like liver, kidney, autoimmune problems. I asked her about liver flukes but she sort of ignored that. Then i asked her to do a Johnes test, and she said, it's not that because the goat didn't have diarrhea. I said please do it anyway. 

She gave him B-12 (it looked like about 3cc's) and banamine. Would not prescribe B-12 or Banamine, told me to do 2cc of fortified B complex daily. This is a 150 pound goat. Seems like it should be at least 6cc.

So that's where it stands as of now. We wait and see, and wait on the results of the test, but they won't be sent out until Monday. If he recovers and the test comes back negative, I still think it might have been liver flukes. If so I hope there is not too much permanent liver damage.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Maybe some Red Cell? 
I hope you can find what is wrong. Good for you to insist on the tests you want- too many times I have been put off by the vet from doing a test that I want, even though the vet motivation might have been not to waste my money- but sometimes something will keep going through my mind and I will not get peace until I've done it.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

~sighs~ Sometimes vets annoy the heck out of me.

"Blood count" is red cell count. It could be liver flukes. The symptoms do not fit Johne's. With Johne's disease, they do get anemia, but they continue to eat. They generally eat a LOT. What kills them with Johne's is that they can't absorb any of what they are eating, so the eat and eat, and get skinnier and skinnier.

Goats do not always get diarrhea with Johne's....but the lack of appetite doesn't fit.

I would dose with Red Cell daily to bring his blood count up. Has he been given Bo-Se? His symptoms could fit severe selenium deficiency.


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## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

Yes, Johnes is probably a long shot. I've been racking my brain all night. Could it be internal CL? Affecting some organ like the liver? I can't find the symptoms. Neither he nor any other goat in my herd has had an external abscess that I know of, but that doesn't mean anything. 

Oh, I forgot, the vet said it could also be cancer, or some other tumor. I just don't have a good feeling about this one. BTW she didn't even take his temp. I did, just before she got there. It was 101.7. 

Here is Squirt at about 1 year old.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

(((hugs))) I am glad you are doing the Johnes test. Gretta did stop eating at one point.


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## PrettyPaisley (May 18, 2007)

Aw. He's a cutie. I hope you are able to fix him up.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Hugs. He's a real cutie. Hope it's nothing really bad. Sending good vibes.


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## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

Thanks guys. I guess I was a little hard on the vet. She was probably just trying to save me money, like _where i want to _ suggested. It was a frustrating day, worrying a lot, and waiting for things and pacing the floor.  

He is eating more than he did when we first penned him up, but still not enough, and I can see just the slightest bit of pink in his eyelids. 

I've still yet to see him chew cud.  Maybe he does it at night.

He is having trouble getting up. I assumed it was just because of the anemia, but maybe his muscles are getting out of condition. But it's only been 7 days. 

Do you think it would be a good idea to bring him out of the pen and make him walk around just a little and get out into the sun? I'm afraid he will fall down and we won't be able to get him back up.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Yes, keep him moving small amounts several times a day. Recovery from anemia is slow. The body has to grow red blood cells, and that takes about three weeks.


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

CaliannG said:


> ~sighs~ Sometimes vets annoy the heck out of me.
> 
> "Blood count" is red cell count. It could be liver flukes. The symptoms do not fit Johne's. With Johne's disease, they do get anemia, but they continue to eat. They generally eat a LOT. What kills them with Johne's is that they can't absorb any of what they are eating, so the eat and eat, and get skinnier and skinnier.
> 
> ...


I have to agree. I know that Johnes is on everyones mind since it hit one close to us, and I am a bit like you I get a thought in my mind and I can't seem to let it go. Red cell would help with the anemia if you can get him some, plus remember some plain yogurt for his stomach I heard the red cell can be a little harsh on the rumen.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Nancy_in_GA said:


> Yes, Johnes is probably a long shot. I've been racking my brain all night. Could it be internal CL? Affecting some organ like the liver? I can't find the symptoms. Neither he nor any other goat in my herd has had an external abscess that I know of, but that doesn't mean anything.
> 
> Oh, I forgot, the vet said it could also be cancer, or some other tumor. I just don't have a good feeling about this one. BTW she didn't even take his temp. I did, just before she got there. It was 101.7.


Slightly low temp, anemia, lack of appetite.......

~pounds head on desk~ I wonder if I can get my BIL to build me an application/database where I can enter goat symptoms and it will spit back problems/diseases that fit? ~grumbles~ Then again, for work like that, I don't think I can afford him. Wonder if I can ask for that for X-mas?

It doesn't fir internal CL either. Maybe cancer. I am completely clueless when it comes to cancer, as different cancers give different symptoms... but goats can get it just like humans.

Perhaps have the vet do some X-rays looking for masses? That's all I can think of. Perhaps someone else will have something that clicks in their brain.


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## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

CaliannG said:


> I wonder if I can get my BIL to build me an application/database where I can enter goat symptoms and it will spit back problems/diseases that fit?


Speaking of symptoms, here's a head scratcher. He flails his tongue around licking like crazy and rubbing his nose on the trough, just like Minelson's Gretta does in her video. If we could all figure out what that meant, it would be a good one for your symptom checker computer program.

We took him for a very short walk for the first time this afternoon just to see how it went. He seemed to perk up after that. Will try more tomorrow, unless he's worse, now that I see he isn't going to fall down. I did 6ccs of fortified B, instead of 3ccs.

My mom thinks she caught him chewing cud today, but not sure. He stopped as soon as he saw her coming. Maybe he's just very modest.  Still not eating enough, but still drinking well. Seems like he would eat ginger snaps forever, but I'm afraid to give him very many of those.

He will eat one or two bites of all of the following, then quit: honeysuckle, privet, pine, cedar, alfalfa hay, bermuda hay, bagged hay chops (molasses smell), BOSS, apple, banana, orange, grapes. Is that too much fruit? 

One more thing, he is still grinding his teeth just a little. The vet said she had something to soothe his stomach lining, but it turned out to be just Probios. So I tried baking soda and he gobbled that up and burped. I do think there is some kind of stomach or esophagus pain going on here. That's why I really don't want to risk Red Cell.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Nancy_in_GA said:


> Speaking of symptoms, here's a head scratcher. He flails his tongue around licking like crazy and rubbing his nose on the trough, just like Minelson's Gretta does in her video. If we could all figure out what that meant, it would be a good one for your symptom checker computer program.
> 
> We took him for a very short walk for the first time this afternoon just to see how it went. He seemed to perk up after that. Will try more tomorrow, unless he's worse, now that I see he isn't going to fall down. I did 6ccs of fortified B, instead of 3ccs.
> 
> ...


The fruit isn't going to hurt him. With his lack of appetite, getting anything down him is good. If mine don't get bellyaches from the tons of mulberries and persimmons they eat during season, I doubt a few fruits will hurt him. 

You said something that caused my brain to niggle, but I am not at home. Been putting together my Mom's sewing cabinet all day and about to go help her get her plants into her greenroom....I will be going home in a couple of hours, where i will have access to my computer with all of it's info, as well as my books.

~smiles~ I am getting old....I don't *remember* the symptoms and problems any more, I just remember where to look them up. :ashamed:


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## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

Now I have a general medical/technical question. 

When the vet drew blood from Squirt for testing she showed it to me and it was really thin and watery, she even commented that it was the consistency of Koolaid. The blood we drew from the donor goat was really thick and would have taken a while to flow from one end of a tube to the other and stuck to the sides.

So we put 1 pint of blood in Squirt and then followed it up with at least 2 pints of saline solution. 

Wouldn't that make his blood even thinner? Where does all that water go? Does it stay in the veins for a while, or immediately absorb into the body? 

One thing I'm grateful for is Squirt has never stopped drinking water.:bow:


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

If I was to take a guess..mine would be that he is suffering from cobalt deficiency. I've been reading about it tonight and thought I'd share some of the articles. Don't know if it will help..but I was thoroughly surprised to see that most areas need added cobalt.

Hope your guy improves soon.


cobalt deficiency in goats

Cobalt deficiency

and I found this quite interesting HERE


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

I can't say I would have agreed with the fluids unless he was really dehydrated but a lot has changed in the past few years. There is better iron sources than red cell but if its all you got use it. Of course I am also wondering why in such an anemic goat cydectin was used when there is safer things to use.
leafy greens help give the body iron including alfalfa hay. Good luck if you need something I'm still pretty stocked up. I know your still pretty far away but you know I'm here


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## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

Sherry, thanks for the articles. Very interesting. I'm now curious about the GISoother in the last article. I may look for something that you would give for ulcers. If it were cobalt deficiency wouldn't we be seeing some symptoms in some of our other goats? 

Yes. Cannon, I really hesitated to give Quest after he became anemic. I mentioned this in the Johnes thread. Unfortunately we could not get a fresh fecal sample at all, and I took a chance, because like the vet, I always heard anemia is due to worms, period! The IvomecPlus did not occur to me at the time. Just not thinking well enough at that time, and thinking too much now.

Been searching "fluid overload" and the amount of lactated ringers should be calculated when there is possible liver damage. Something about the liver not being able to handle one of the ingredients. But he is no worse off now, and I would think the danger period is probably over for that.

I just need to stop worrying, and see how he progresses and go from there. I suspect we will get a sign within a couple of days which way it's going to go---up or down.

Thanks everyone.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

I wonder if the wormers are kinda hard on the livers. Then, if they are short on something like cobalt, it's like a double whammy to the liver.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I don't have any advice for you Nancy but just wanted to say I've been following this thread & I really Hope you Squirt gets better quick. He's adorable in the picture above.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

how could she not get a fecal sample? Did she glove up and go berry hunting are just hope you catch on? You can blood test pretty cheap going to pull blood on all mine tomorrow for pregnancy testing and now that great has shown me how hidden the virus can be testing everyone for johnes 

yes wormers can be hard on the liver so can products like redcell. Pryrentel is a bit less harsh typically but in the mega dose I'm not sure if it would be the lesser of the two evils


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## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

Not good news today. The morning started OK. I got some privet and he gobbled that up, I'd say about 1 cubic foot of small branches, and I was starting to get hopeful until I checked his eyelids. They were back to snow white. Got him up for one short walk, but today was different. Barely enough energy to move.

And...the rest of the day he only ate 1/2 of one banana and three bites of bermuda hay. Would not touch anything else on the list. There is definitely some kind of internal pain going on. Grinding teeth. I think now I should have tried an oral antibiotic. The last thing this evening he started making a noise like snoring, and breathing looked too heavy. His temp was 102.7. Maybe if you get pneumonia combined with shutting down it averages out to normal. 

Anyway I don't think he is strong enough of fight off anything more. He is running on fumes. I gave Banamine and left him. Don't expect him to be conscious in the morning. 

He is definitely going for a necropsy. I guess that will negate the need for the Johne's test, unless they screw up the exam.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Ok simplify for me. Exactly when was he wormed and what with? When you have a severe infestation, you have to worm 3 times 10 days apart. IIRC when barberpole get to a certain population, new ones coming in will encyst to kind of hibernate until conditions are better. When you worm and kill off the active population, these will come out and get to work. 

Fecals are not accurate this time of year, because worms don't lay much in winter- the outside world is not suitable for their young to survive.

For building blood back I would recommend fir meadow's GI Soother.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

His symptoms are so much like Gretta. Not saying he has Johnes but maybe something similar. Gretta was on Tetracycline for 2 weeks orally because I refused to inject her with painful (stinging) antibiotics anymore. 500mg twice a day. for 2 weeks
5-10cc's Dyne bid
5-10 grams Probios bid
2-1/4 cc Thiamine bid
Lots of very high quality, rich alfalfa hay
That is the basic of what I gave her and then started the Dex (2 injections) and then moved to oral Prednisone. 20 mg bid
This got her stable. I have given her other things like Prunes, raisins, oats, Animal crackers, Saltines, Mash, soup. she would take a few bites and then do the "wipe the mouth on the first hard surface she could find" and move off. She is not doing that anymore. 
I am NOT saying Squirt has Johnes...But maybe some this regimen will help. Ireally feel for you and what you are going through. It's SO frustrating. ((((hugs))))


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## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

Minelson, maybe the tongue flailing just means real hunger. I remember when we had Dixie put under general anesthetic, we had to fast her for 8 hours before, and couldn't let her eat for several hours after she woke up. She did the same tongue flailing thing. No nose rubbing, though. Could it be a sensation of "pins and needles," maybe, like humans get with B-12 deficiency?

I would love to have been able to try Prednisone and Dex, or just about anything for that matter, but I think this vet made up her mind if it wasn't worms, it was hopeless. I just hope I can convince the people who do the necropsy to tell me more than "he died of severe anemia."


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

can you take him to uga? If your vet tries to charge you I'll see if I can get my vet to call in a drop off, most vets will charge for the extra paperwork the downside is he'll have to be 'my' goat. I had dex and I have pred. In pill form plus handle if you need it bad enough to come here its yours.

will he eat spinach ans kale?


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

I have mo advice just wanted you to know you two are in my prayers. ((((Hugs))))


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

How is Squirt this morning?


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## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

What a fighter to the end. Still sitting with head up this morning, but moaning and screaming in pain, the vet came out on an emergency call before hours and put him down. She wanted to do a necropsy too. I just got back from delivering him to the vet school. The worrying is over. 

Now I'm thinking an internal injury, like a ruptured spleen, maybe. That's the last thinking I'm going to do for the day. Need a vodka and grapefruit juice. 

Thanks everyone for your support.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I'm so sorry Nancy. It's not too early for the vodka on a day like this  ((((hugs))))


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I'm so sorry that you have to have this hole in your life. I hope that the information from the necropsy brings you some peace.


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## kittyjo (Feb 10, 2005)

have been following your thread and I am very sorry for your loss sometimes no matter what we do nothing helps have lost goats that way before but at least you can say 
"I tried"


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

{{{HUGS}}} I am so sorry, Nancy!


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm so sorry for your loss Nancy. It's darned heart shredding to see your friend in that kind of pain. It sure makes a person feel helpless.

I'm sure he was relieved that the vet got there. You did all you could and that's all you can do.


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## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

This one is really hard, guys. All the confusion and rushing around this morning kept me from thinking about it, but now the reality is setting in. This is the third time I've started crying tonight. 

Squirt was special. He was my baby. We nursed him through a terrible episode of shipping fever when we first got him as a baby, almost lost him, but he was a fighter even then. And I just couldn't fix it this time. I just feel like I failed him. I should have caught it sooner. And maybe I should have put him down earlier. I don't know how much pain he was in until the last hour. 

He was such a sweet, quiet, good-natured fellow, and I think he would have been happier and better off at another farm where there were fewer goats and he wasn't the bottom of the pecking order. I just want to tell him I'm sorry.

Thanks for letting me say this out loud to someone who understands.


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## Mainelyhappy (Jan 28, 2008)

Please know that you are in my thoughts. I am so sorry for your loss. 
Daryl in Maine


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I just lost everything I wrote because I couldn't spell psyche. We had a "family talk" tonight and hubby is concerned about my level of "stress". He says he undertands sadness but feels I'm too stressed and that maybe we have too much. He is afraid I will go into a panic attack or anxiety that could be crippling. I told him to read the "just a goat" again. He gets that. I told him if we lived back in the city there would be stress but just different. IDK....this is hard....but life is hard


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

_He was such a sweet, quiet, good-natured fellow_

Nancy, I have the feeling that he got a lot of that from you. I hope you feel better for venting..but honestly, I bet if Squirt could have chosen where he could live..he would have chosen to live with *YOU*. I think when we lose one of our precious gifts, we always look to ourselves and think we coulda/shoulda done more or different. That you tried, you loved and you have much heartache is all that you can do.

I know it hurts now. I pray that this moves on to you remembering Squirt with many smiles on your face, replacing the tears that are there now.

Blessings~


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

I'm so sorry Nancy! I hope they find some answers that give you some piece of mind. My prayers are with you.

Min my husband says that to me all the time. He says I would be less stressed with less animals. Um no. I love animals and they make me happy. The good out weighs the bad. Sometimes we loose someone special to us and my heart breaks but I wouldn't be happier if I never had them. When we had to put my 14yr old Rottweiler down (she had cancer twice) I bawled so hard and begged the vet to let me die with her. She was like my child. Since she was put down at my parents house I was so sad that I couldn't go in their house for almost a year because I would burst into tears. My husband doesn't understand this. 8 yrs later thinking about her still makes we well up. The animals are my kids and I love them with everything I have. I so understand.


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## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

We have had, over the last 8 years, never fewer than 9 goats on the farm. That probably doesn't seem like many to most of you, but I always felt that even 9 is too many to allow you to give the individual attention to the really sweet natured ones, like Squirt. I wish I had spent more time with him now. That upsets me a lot too. I guess I'm equating goats with dogs and cats, and realize goats prefer large groups.

And for some reason I tend to remember every mistake I ever made when it comes to animals, particulalry when it comes to how they finally died. I wish I could change that. Maybe I need some kind of psychological counseling.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Oh Nancy! (((hugs!!!))) I think those feelings have to be very expected! Geeez I hope so....we can sit side by side on the counselors couch.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Nancy_in_GA said:


> And for some reason I tend to remember every mistake I ever made when it comes to animals, particulalry when it comes to how they finally died. I wish I could change that. Maybe I need some kind of psychological counseling.


I'm not saying you shouldn't- I've always found that talking it out helps.
But you would not be alone with that feeling. 
I have been struggling with my 21 year old mare. She developed a problem where she went from quidding to not being able to swallow. Then she developed neurological issues from nose to tail.
I kept going over and over what could be her problem. I worried obsessively about a trip to the mountains where I got lost on a logging road and turned the trailer around in a difficult area that tilted it and I could hear the horses scrambling in the back. They seemed fine- not even a scratch.
This was almost 8 years ago. And I fretted that I had caused her to pull on the trailer tie and damage her neck. Just because I travel with guilt. Mind you her problem just showed up this year. I had her neck xrayed even though the vet was pretty sure it could not be that because I was so worried I had done this to her. Indeed she had great spacing and no arthitis.
I think that you are a responsible and loving person. I'm just sorry that the result is pain to you.


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## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

The vet just called to give me a verbal report relayed to her from a vet school physician. Written report will take some more time.

Hemangiosarcoma---a rapidly-growing type of cancer originating in the blood vessels. In Squirt's case it had spread to several places, most obviously in the lungs. It is fairly common in dogs. Rare in goats. But (I'm speculating) that might be because there aren't as many necropsies done on goats as dogs. 

So I Googled it. It all fits now. In dogs, tumors often appear in the spleen. Symptoms usually only occur when a tumor ruptures. Some common symptoms are: 

1. Anemia, weakness and collapse
2. Pale or white gums
3. Excessive thirst and intake of water
4. Lack of appetite 
5. Difficulty breathing

If anyone is interested I'll include the written report here when it comes in.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Thank you for posting this. Any knowledge is good.
Hopefully having the report will allow you to know that you were a great goat mom. ((hugs))


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Thank you, Nancy, for sharing this with us. I hope you are feeling better.


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## noeskimo (Mar 17, 2011)

Sounds to me like Squirt couldn't have found a better place to live, and die.You two blessed each other.


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