# Is the US and rural America ready for electric vehicles?



## bubba42 (Jan 5, 2014)

“If the world goes to electric vehicles by 2030, the mineral demands exceed the supply of all the mines that exist now, that are planned to be built today and all the mines we expect to build in the future,” Mills says. “It’s not going to happen.” 

“According to Mills, China produces 80% to 90% of the world’s rare earth elements such as neodymium, an essential battery component. He says mineral shortages coupled with transportation issues make the 2030 electric vehicle goal “unrealistic.” 



https://www.agweb.com/news/policy/politics/us-prepared-support-electric-vehicles?mkt_tok=ODQzLVlHQi03OTMAAAGCKsVjG8rfT0fgvNIZTOh1mA_W8J6Gbz_V6iOwBe_4aEKA427Cbz7FJuBd8qR7F3AKRPuMS_jfunsGSBeDx3ry0I1aFHmSe9Ll3HZgg4N9wOkQix7U


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Certain parts of the country arent and will not be capable of supplying the electric requirements for large scale use of EVs.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I was towing a new mower home yesterday ( 2 hours each way) and chose not to fill up my 2500 Truck when I left to return home. I had a quarter tank at the time. 
My mind wandered while I was listening to the Ram/Buccaneer game on the radio and then I heard the "Low Fuel" warning chiming. Uh oh. 
I pulled to the side of the road and had Siri check for gas stations nearby. The closest one was 21 miles away. I knew I had about 2 gallons once the light comes on, so at 11 mpg that was cutting it close. To add to it, I was driving steep inclines and sharp turns.
As I got close, my stabil trak light started flashing, my anti lock brake lights came on and the engine started sputtering. I rolled into the gas station running on nuggets of flammable rust.
If I had run out of fuel, I could have started hoofing it until I got a ride, or I could have tossed an extra gas can in the back before I left.
Where does one go to bring back electricity?


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

There are definitely many cases where EV's make sense, such as metro areas where your distance of travel is not great and you can get back to the shop or house every afternoon for a recharge.
Makes a lot of sense for city taxis, small delivery vehicles and couriers, metro buses, parts delivery, or just about anyone that runs short routes. If it makes sense for you, then by all means get one.

What grinds the gears of many of us, is trying to force this stuff down our throats. We are perfectly happy with our gas / diesel vehicles and going electric would be just not work or make sense from a practical or economic standpoint. If EV's are really a better, more economical, superior product, the free market will eventually sort that stuff out and people will convert.

Another thing to consider is that individuals in their automobiles are a pretty small part of U.S. fuel consumption overall, when you consider how much fuel is burned by; aircraft, large ships and vessels, over the road trucks, construction and mining machinery, etc. Yet they pick on the personal vehicles who's use and emissions are a small piece of the pie.

This is no doubt one of those typical "follow the money" scenarios and you can bet many of the DC leaders pushing this agenda are heavily invested in stock of the manufacturers that will benefit from forcing EV's on us.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I think that in 2022, we are just as ready for EVs, as they were back in 1922 being ready for petroleum distribution in every town.

Tesla has made contracts with multiple restaurant chains nationwide to install recharging stations in their parking lots and every airport is putting them in their parking lots. You can drive the entire East Coast from St Johns, Canada to Miami Florida and never be out of range of a fast recharge.

You can drive Coast-to-Coast on any of the East-West Interstate freeways, hoping from restaurant to restaurant. By a burger and soda and your recharge is free.

I met with a local non-profit company who installs solar farms and fast charge recharging stations, their offer was to fund and the whole package on grant monies and to pay me an annual leasing fee for using my land. Our problem turned out to be that we do not have 3-phase power near enough to my farm, to tie it into the grid in the appropriate manner.


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## 67drake (May 6, 2020)

GTX63 said:


> I was towing a new mower home yesterday ( 2 hours each way) and chose not to fill up my 2500 Truck when I left to return home. I had a quarter tank at the time.
> My mind wandered while I was listening to the Ram/Buccaneer game on the radio and then I heard the "Low Fuel" warning chiming. Uh oh.
> I pulled to the side of the road and had Siri check for gas stations nearby. The closest one was 21 miles away. I knew I had about 2 gallons once the light comes on, so at 11 mpg that was cutting it close. To add to it, I was driving steep inclines and sharp turns.
> As I got close, my stabil trak light started flashing, my anti lock brake lights came on and the engine started sputtering. I rolled into the gas station running on nuggets of flammable rust.
> ...


Story reminds me of being in the badlands of South Dakota. I’m going down the interstate pulling a car on a car trailer with my Suburban. The engine starts sputtering. I throw it in neutral, as there was an exit coming up. I swear I made it about 1/3 a mile, up the exit ramp, right turn at the stop sign (nobody coming, so I didn’t stop!), and a block up to a gas station. I was going about.5 MPH as I pulled up to the pump. Whew!
Edit- a 1/3 of a mile is FARTHER than a 1/4 mile. 
Double edit- .5 mph is SLOWER than 1 MPH


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Lol, been there and have the T shirt.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Minutes to charge vs minutes to fill up???? Gas lines vs charging lines??? delivering gas vs delivering electricity??
Can we carry two hours of electricity in the trunk???


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> I was towing a new mower home yesterday ( 2 hours each way) and chose not to fill up my 2500 Truck when I left to return home. I had a quarter tank at the time.
> My mind wandered while I was listening to the Ram/Buccaneer game on the radio and then I heard the "Low Fuel" warning chiming. Uh oh.
> I pulled to the side of the road and had Siri check for gas stations nearby. The closest one was 21 miles away. I knew I had about 2 gallons once the light comes on, so at 11 mpg that was cutting it close. To add to it, I was driving steep inclines and sharp turns.
> As I got close, my stabil trak light started flashing, my anti lock brake lights came on and the engine started sputtering. I rolled into the gas station running on nuggets of flammable rust.
> ...


That stabilitrack is a pain to diagnose . So many potential factors Dad had to send his back to the dealer...


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Other than low fuel pressure causing the computer to start flipping out, I have found most of the time that a failing magnetic sensor inside the wheel hub to be the most common cause for the StabiliTrak to start blinking and tapping me on my shoulder.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

From what I understand, it takes maybe an entire day to charge off of a standard wall socket. Six to eight hours of charging is going to need something like a dryer hookup. That is going to need to be hooked in to existing house wiring with an outside plug. There are a lot of houses that can't handle the electrical loads they have now. It will be a cash cow for electricians and fire remediation companies. If it is not an extra coverage item on homeowners insurance it soon will be.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Not where I live, no. Never will be.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

And how many people on this forum do NOT have electricity in their homes? Guess who is going to be paying for the "free" electricity?

Mon


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

barnbilder said:


> From what I understand, it takes maybe an entire day to charge off of a standard wall socket. Six to eight hours of charging is going to need something like a dryer hookup. That is going to need to be hooked in to existing house wiring with an outside plug. There are a lot of houses that can't handle the electrical loads they have now. It will be a cash cow for electricians and fire remediation companies. If it is not an extra coverage item on homeowners insurance it soon will be.


The funny thing is, here, that electricity would come from coal. All the talk of electric cars. No talk of where the power to run them comes From. Most seem to feel it comes from thin flipping air!


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

barnbilder said:


> From what I understand, it takes maybe an entire day to charge off of a standard wall socket. Six to eight hours of charging is going to need something like a dryer hookup. That is going to need to be hooked in to existing house wiring with an outside plug. There are a lot of houses that can't handle the electrical loads they have now. It will be a cash cow for electricians and fire remediation companies. If it is not an extra coverage item on homeowners insurance it soon will be.


Fast-charging requires 600vdc. They bury a huge battery in the ground, it recharges itself from grid power. and it stands ready to dump that energy into your car in a 30-minute charge.

I recharge my plugin hybrid in my garage, a full charge takes 5 hours using a 120vac 20amp breaker. I do it using our household solar power system.

I am a big proponent of EV cars, I do not think anyone is honestly threatening you with taking away petroleum vehicles. There will always be gasoline and diesel vehicles around.

The actual threat I see is self-driving. Every auto manufacturer is throwing money at cracking that nut. As soon as they can prove they have made self-driving safer than human-driving, the insurance companies will all begin raising the rates on human driving. It will be self-driving vehicles and the insurance companies that will force us to shift to EV vehicles.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

farmerDale said:


> The funny thing is, here, that electricity would come from coal. All the talk of electric cars. No talk of where the power to run them comes From. Most seem to feel it comes from thin flipping air!


Mine comes from solar.


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## exodus (Jun 18, 2012)

We have a used nissan leaf, used for local driving gets used about 80% of the time. So far I think it was a great purchase. Had it for going on 5 years, solar charged.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> From what I understand, it takes maybe an entire day to charge off of a standard wall socket. Six to eight hours of charging is going to need something like a dryer hookup. That is going to need to be hooked in to existing house wiring with an outside plug. There are a lot of houses that can't handle the electrical loads they have now. It will be a cash cow for electricians and fire remediation companies. If it is not an extra coverage item on homeowners insurance it soon will be.


at best 3 miles range per hour charging from a standard 110 outlet

so a fully dead 300 mile range battery takes 100 hours to fully charge form a standard 110 outlet 

a 30 amp 240 outlet like an electric dryer plugs into you can get to 15 miles range per hour

the 80 amp 240 level 2 charger as the call them you can charge about 60 miles range in an hour yo

keep in mind most rural older houses have a 100 am service at best new a 200 amp service is best 

many older homes only have a 60 amp service if they have an old fuse panel and not a newer breaker box


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> I was towing a new mower home yesterday ( 2 hours each way) and chose not to fill up my 2500 Truck when I left to return home. I had a quarter tank at the time.
> My mind wandered while I was listening to the Ram/Buccaneer game on the radio and then I heard the "Low Fuel" warning chiming. Uh oh.
> I pulled to the side of the road and had Siri check for gas stations nearby. The closest one was 21 miles away. I knew I had about 2 gallons once the light comes on, so at 11 mpg that was cutting it close. To add to it, I was driving steep inclines and sharp turns.
> As I got close, my stabil trak light started flashing, my anti lock brake lights came on and the engine started sputtering. I rolled into the gas station running on nuggets of flammable rust.
> ...


Fly a kite like Ben Franklin?


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

ET1 SS said:


> Mine comes from solar.


Good job. I live in a place where it is perpetually cloudy.
I only wish that ppl would tell me how much coal a single charge would burn?


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## 1032swiss (Nov 24, 2021)

ET1 SS said:


> Mine comes from solar. (panel)


Which required energy/fossil fuel to manufacture and distribute.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

ET1 SS said:


> Mine comes from solar.


how big is your array ?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Maybe California isn't quite ready.





__





Press Releases


California ISO's Network for Energy Conservation and Flex Alerts




web.archive.org





More conservation sought to help balance energy supply and demand

While the Flex Alert is in effect on Friday from 6 p.m. to 9 p.m., consumers are asked to:


Set thermostats to 78 degrees or higher, if health permits
Avoid using major appliances
Turn off all unnecessary lights
To be as comfortable as possible during the Flex Alert hours, consumers are also strongly encouraged to take these steps earlier in the day:


Pre-cool your home by lowering the thermostat
Close window coverings to keep your home or apartment cool
If you need to use major appliances like your dishwasher, clothes washer and dryer, do so before the Flex Alert takes effect
Pre-charge electronic devices Close window coverings to keep your home or apartment cool
Pre-charge electric vehicles


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

ET1 SS said:


> grant monies


So, they had found another way to get on the government tit. Grant money is tax dollars, not being spent on infrastructure.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

ET1 SS said:


> Fast-charging requires 600vdc. They bury a huge battery in the ground, it recharges itself from grid power. and it stands ready to dump that energy into your car in a 30-minute charge.



Do that a couple times a year and you'll be replacing that $10K battery pak every two years. Fast re-charge = short battery life. No getting around that.

The biggest ineffciency for EVs in the real world is how their power storage gets used up so quickly by cold weather and operating under heavy load-- something most rural drivers have regular experience with. That 400 mile range becomes 75 miles in winter pulling a trailer in hill country....Then wait 6 hrs for a re-charge.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

exodus said:


> We have a used nissan leaf, used for local driving gets used about 80% of the time. So far I think it was a great purchase. Had it for going on 5 years, solar charged.


You saved money on gas, but spent as the premium on the cost of the EV vs the equivalent but cheaper ICE model Nissan would take many yrs of driving the EV to make up the difference....$10K is a lot of gas. Gas $3/gal & 20mpg comes out to 66,000 miles-- anout 5 yrs for the average driver...That's right about when the battery pak ($5-10,000) needs to be replaced.


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## bubba42 (Jan 5, 2014)

ET1 SS said:


> I think that in 2022, we are just as ready for EVs, as they were back in 1922 being ready for petroleum distribution in every town.
> 
> Tesla has made contracts with multiple restaurant chains nationwide to install recharging stations in their parking lots and every airport is putting them in their parking lots. You can drive the entire East Coast from St Johns, Canada to Miami Florida and never be out of range of a fast recharge.
> 
> ...


The challenge (as the author of the cited article stated) is that we do not possess the resources here in the US to build that infrastructure. In the 1920’s we did possess everything necessary to build filling stations across the US (from resources to manufacturing).

I also lived in Maine for five years after military retirement, and I would absolutely beg to differ about the “Canada to Florida” coast access. I can’t speak for every state, but actually looked at the viability of an EV in Maine (outside of Portland, ME)…


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

The question should be, can they afford a $50,000 compact car? Will it pull a stock trailer, push a snow plow, carry a 1500 pound round bale five miles down a two track road in a foot of snow? And most important of all, can a farmer fix it in his garage with simple hand tools, and have it up and running the next day?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

For people with back and hip problems, the question becomes "can I realistically get into and out of this vehicle?". Before I had my surgery, hubby was going to buy me a brand new car. But everything at the lot was too hard to get into or the seat had your spine squashed into a "(" curve. We had to settle for a Grand Marquis (still difficult but accessible). The Explorer was a better fit but the transmissions are terrible.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> The question should be, can they afford a $50,000 compact car? Will it pull a stock trailer, push a snow plow, carry a 1500 pound round bale five miles down a two track road in a foot of snow? And most important of all, can a farmer fix it in his garage with simple hand tools, and have it up and running the next day?


Only one question a day.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

frogmammy said:


> And how many people on this forum do NOT have electricity in their homes? Guess who is going to be paying for the "free" electricity?
> 
> Mon


Who?


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Truly if they were really worried about making transportation truly eco friendly. Its trains. Electric, diesel, coal even, doesnt matter, they are most efficient land transportation. This notion every individual needs their own independent vehicle makes little sense. Notice how the passenger trains and trolleys and such were legislated out of existence from heavy lobbying by car companies and govt also lobbied heavily to build highways at public expense. Gets down to it a rail system best way to handle things with private vehicles only for rural areas where public transit makes less sense due to low population density. 

Will we see this, nope, selling private passenger vehicles is too lucrative, though I think car companies are basically going to price themselves out of existence Like the house builders, they all are chasing ever more well heeled customers for ever more profit while selling fewer units. Go to any new car dealer, even before the pandemic and computer chip shortage, you just couldnt find stripped low end models. And if you did it was some tiny import that doesnt meet the needs of anybody but maybe a single student or such and usually too expensive for said student. 

It wasnt lack of interest that killed off the compact pickups and small sedans, it was lack of demand from people that would pay crazy money for a new compact pickup or small stripped sedan. The people looking for cheap vehicles had already moved to the used market, new vehicles out of their price range. Only people buying new vehicles at crazy prices were the well healed and they didnt want economy vehicles. Unfortunately if nobody buying new low end vehicles, there arent any on used market down the road. Just over complex luxury barges that dont make good choice used for low end of market. So basically the car companies are their own worst enemy. We will soon see very few private car sales, it will all be rentals and leased vehicles. Only uber wealthy can own a private vehicle outright. They will be so complex individuals couldnt afford to have them repaired anyway.

I keep waiting to see some Chinese or Indian company come in and offer low priced economy vehicles and eat the lunch of the wannabe luxury car companies that abandoned that part of the market. Though maybe see Great Depression 2.0 and WWIII before that happens. We are in the second Gilded Age with mega concentration of wealth and that has to work its way through.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

ET1 SS said:


> Fast-charging requires 600vdc. They bury a huge battery in the ground, it recharges itself from grid power. and it stands ready to dump that energy into your car in a 30-minute charge.
> 
> I recharge my plugin hybrid in my garage, a full charge takes 5 hours using a 120vac 20amp breaker. I do it using our household solar power system.
> 
> ...


They won’t force me to do didly squat…


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

I'm convinced now! I'm going to call Jasper in the morning and order a replacement engine for this 1999 Chevy. It meets all my needs. I can't take a train to collect rent and pull a tractor...


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## exodus (Jun 18, 2012)

doc- said:


> You saved money on gas, but spent as the premium on the cost of the EV vs the equivalent but cheaper ICE model Nissan would take many yrs of driving the EV to make up the difference....$10K is a lot of gas. Gas $3/gal & 20mpg comes out to 66,000 miles-- anout 5 yrs for the average driver...That's right about when the battery pak ($5-10,000) needs to be replaced.


I paid the equivalent to a ICE I save on gas,gas filters, air cleaners,oil filters and oil. All ICE gaskets, oil leaks on the driveway and the cost to maintain all of the above. Plus I can warm it up in a closed garage and in joy a quiet ride and the torque is unbelievable.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> They won’t force me to do didly squat…


Its pretty much same cars or guns, all they have to do is either ban ammo/gas or tax it into stratosphere. You going to hitch your team horses to your car? You better go buy some of that overpriced farmland to raise corn and then put up a still. LOL Course you can still ride your mule to town and make your own lead balls for your blunderbuss.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> Its pretty much same cars or guns, all they have to do is either ban ammo/gas or tax it into stratosphere. You going to hitch your team horses to your car? You better go buy some of that overpriced farmland to raise corn and then put up a still. LOL Course you can still ride your mule to town and make your own lead balls for your blunderbuss.


If you are serious check with a doctor. Banning ammo ? Afghanistan never ran out. People here have been packing and stacking for generations... I know you are just messing because it's what you do. Plus I didn't get a PM on the job offer?!?!


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

HermitJohn said:


> Truly if they were really worried about making transportation truly eco friendly. Its trains. Electric, diesel, coal even, doesnt matter, they are most efficient land transportation. This notion every individual needs their own independent vehicle makes little sense. Notice how the passenger trains and trolleys and such were legislated out of existence from heavy lobbying by car companies and govt also lobbied heavily to build highways at public expense. Gets down to it a rail system best way to handle things with private vehicles only for rural areas where public transit makes less sense due to low population density.
> 
> Will we see this, nope, selling private passenger vehicles is too lucrative, though I think car companies are basically going to price themselves out of existence Like the house builders, they all are chasing ever more well heeled customers for ever more profit while selling fewer units. Go to any new car dealer, even before the pandemic and computer chip shortage, you just couldnt find stripped low end models. And if you did it was some tiny import that doesnt meet the needs of anybody but maybe a single student or such and usually too expensive for said student.
> 
> ...


Ford Maverick pickup
20K new.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

HermitJohn said:


> Course you can still ride your mule to town and make your own lead balls for your blunderbuss.


I thought every body was already doing this, or am I a trend setter. The wife just found a smoking deal for lead ingots on Ebay.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Why would anyone use a blunderbuss with the quality selection of modern inline muzzleloaders? I mean if it got to the point we had to manufacture gunpowder using guano deposits and charcoal, and melt down lead which I assume everybody else does anyway? Blunderbuss indeed. My .54 cal. will hit a deer at two hundred yards. It will go through one lengthways and kill one broadside behind it at 100.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

@TripleD, I tried to get a quote on a Jasper engine for the Merc a couple weeks ago. Their website said you have to get a quote from a certified installer.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> @TripleD, I tried to get a quote on a Jasper engine for the Merc a couple weeks ago. Their website said you have to get a quote from a certified installer.


I have a good man who is owns his own business. I will call him tomorrow.. We talked today because he has Covid. Thank you...


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Elevenpoint said:


> Ford Maverick pickup
> 20K new.


I read this morning that Ford has stopped taking orders on them. Too popular I guess.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Elevenpoint said:


> Ford Maverick pickup
> 20K new.


If you can get one. Ford really underestimated demand and can't fill all the orders. Ford shuts off orders for new $20,000 Maverick pickup
What we need is another Peoples' Car (Volkswagen) that is cheap, no frills, basic transportation.

Can anybody explain why we need electric locks on car doors?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yes, they are an example for justifying price larger increases.
A small profit on each bell and whistle equals a larger profit on the whole pile.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

*


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I just don't get it. All the car companies stopped making larger sedans claiming there was no market for them. They all switched to making little bitty compact vehicles which often got no better mpg than the sedans they replaced. No one wanted the little bitty compacts and instead started buying big trucks and vans. Then the big 3 stopped making big vans, again claiming there was no market for them. Automakers rolled out big suvs which got no better mileage than the big vans they replaced. And all along we could have had larger sedans with decent mpg which could hold 6 passengers and a weeks worth of groceries.

The govt and their regulations helped create this mess. By requiring better over-all mpg and excluding large vehicles for years, they ensured the automakers would stop making large sedans and switch to gas guzzling suvs. It then became a vicious cycle, no big cars but people need big vehicles for passengers and groceries. How do you consolidate errands when you have to take your 2 bags of groceries home before you can put your cleaning products in the car? Did the mpg regulations actually cut the national gas consumption? Or did bogus regulation and fatter Americans cause gas consumption to increase?

Sorry, just a vent about not being able to get a new vehicle which can carry 6 passengers and a weeks worth of groceries that gets better than 20 mpg.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I had a 67 Impala with a 283 V8 and a powerglide automatic transmission. On the highway I could get 27 mpg.
I could drop a shoe box under the hood and it would hit the ground.
Lockup torque converters, fuel injection, MAP sensors, etc all add something to either performance and/or reliability, but they do not add to increased fuel mileage nor ease of maintenance for the shade tree mechanic.
A sub compact, or a compact, or in some cases a medium sized car, are not practical to obese America.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

farmerDale said:


> The funny thing is, here, that electricity would come from coal. All the talk of electric cars. No talk of where the power to run them comes From. Most seem to feel it comes from thin flipping air!


Unicorn farts?


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## exodus (Jun 18, 2012)

Speaking of Volkswagen, from what I understand they are going to stop investing $ in ICE technology buy 2026. Their European division is stopping production on their ICE's.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

doc- said:


> If you can get one. Ford really underestimated demand and can't fill all the orders. Ford shuts off orders for new $20,000 Maverick pickup
> What we need is another Peoples' Car (Volkswagen) that is cheap, no frills, basic transportation.
> 
> Can anybody explain why we need electric locks on car doors?


Or power windows. We drive our cars until they die and we've replaced sooooo many window motors it's obnoxious. I miss the old days of crank windows.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> I had a 67 Impala with a 283 V8 and a powerglide automatic transmission. On the highway I could get 27 mpg.
> I could drop a shoe box under the hood and it would hit the ground.
> Lockup torque converters, fuel injection, MAP sensors, etc all add something to either performance and/or reliability, but they do not add to increased fuel mileage nor ease of maintenance for the shade tree mechanic.
> A sub compact, or a compact, or in some cases a medium sized car, are not practical to obese America.


Right....Electtonics make cars easy to start in the cold, but have done nothing for fuel mileage...All the "improvement" there is due to smaller, lighter vehicles, not better engines.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

farmerDale said:


> Good job. I live in a place where it is perpetually cloudy.
> I only wish that ppl would tell me how much coal a single charge would burn?


What would be the purpose of knowing that?

If I said that it takes exactly 3.7 unicorn farts, would that be a useful answer? I doubt it, because NOBODY is going to charge an EV car from unicorn farts!


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

1032swiss said:


> Which required energy/fossil fuel to manufacture and distribute.


Okay, and?

Did you have some point you wanted to get to?





GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> how big is your array ?


4400 watts.

I put it in, because we do not have reliable power grid in this region.





muleskinner2 said:


> So, they had found another way to get on the government tit. Grant money is tax dollars, not being spent on infrastructure.


I am not the one pushing 'Build Back Better' with another Trillion dollars of debt.





doc- said:


> Do that a couple times a year and you'll be replacing that $10K battery pak every two years. Fast re-charge = short battery life. No getting around that.
> 
> The biggest inefficiency for EVs in the real world is how their power storage gets used up so quickly by cold weather and operating under heavy load-- something most rural drivers have regular experience with. That 400 mile range becomes 75 miles in winter pulling a trailer in hill country....Then wait 6 hrs for a re-charge.


It was -22F today. It had a big effect on my car's EV range. 

Normally a charge gives me 25 miles of range, but in this weather a charge can only give me 21 miles of range.

As for towing big loads, in Europe they already have EV commercial trucks hauling 20 ton loads.

Do you normally exceed 20 tones behind your truck? Can you equal what EV trucks are doing?





doc- said:


> You saved money on gas, but spent as the premium on the cost of the EV vs the equivalent but cheaper ICE model Nissan would take many yrs of driving the EV to make up the difference....$10K is a lot of gas. Gas $3/gal & 20mpg comes out to 66,000 miles-- anout 5 yrs for the average driver...That's right about when the battery pak ($5-10,000) needs to be replaced.


I was just looking at replacement HV batteries, including labor fees replacement currently costs $3200.





bubba42 said:


> I also lived in Maine for five years after military retirement, and I would absolutely beg to differ about the “Canada to Florida” coast access. I can’t speak for every state, but actually looked at the viability of an EV in Maine (outside of Portland, ME)


It exists now.

It is in place and operating as we speak.

I do not know when you lived in Maine, but things like this change every year.

The rural road that connects Portland to Quebec [through Jackman] now has EV charging stations every 20 miles. Our governor recently did a speech about that project.

But yes, the route from St,Johns to Miami is all in place. As are the East-West routes, coast-to-coast.





muleskinner2 said:


> The question should be, can they afford a $50,000 compact car? Will it pull a stock trailer, push a snow plow, carry a 1500 pound round bale five miles down a two track road in a foot of snow? And most important of all, can a farmer fix it in his garage with simple hand tools, and have it up and running the next day?


You need to look at the Bollinger B-1 utility truck and its specs.

It has a high price today, but if they can get it into production its price will drop at least 50%.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

ET1 SS said:


> You need to look at the Bollinger B-1 utility truck and its specs.


With a little TLC my present truck will last me until they bury me in it. And it cost fuel, oil changes, and tires.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

ET1 SS said:


> Mine comes from solar.


Yup. And for three months of the year I couldn't have enough panels to charge an EV at home. This is just a question for people that have power lines. We won't even bring up range.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

JRHill02 said:


> Yup. And for three months of the year I couldn't have enough panels to charge an EV at home. This is just a question for people that have power lines. We won't even bring up range.


For three months of the year? Whats up, do you deploy?


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## 1032swiss (Nov 24, 2021)

Sheez! relax, do what you want. 

Like mom always said; The dog that gets hit, barks.

My point was it really isn't that much better for the environment if you take everything into consideration.

But if you want to do it more power to you


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

1032swiss said:


> Sheez! relax, do what you want.
> 
> Like mom always said; The dog that gets hit, barks.
> 
> ...


I grew up being told that nuclear power is bad.

Then I worked for 20 years with nuclear reactors. I am not so sure about things people say are bad for the environment.

I think I heard one time that someone was promoting EV cars on the basis that they thought maybe it would be good for the environment. I have never bought into that religion myself.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

I'm really enjoying my new electric combine / tractor / dump truck /. . . .


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I look at the EV tractors every year at the fair. It is an interesting idea.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

ET1 SS said:


> For three months of the year? Whats up, do you deploy?


The poster you quoted lives in Washington state. They have winter in Washington. 3 months of cloudy weather and less than 11 hours of daylight, and even fewer hours where the sun is capable of charging solar panels.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Danaus29 said:


> The poster you quoted lives in Washington state. They have winter in Washington. 3 months of cloudy weather and less than 11 hours of daylight, and even fewer hours where the sun is capable of charging solar panels.


Okay, I had a house and lived in Bremerton Washington for 6 years. I get it.

For the past 17 years I have been living in Maine. Here in Maine winter is great for solar production.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Ohio winters are terrible for solar production. We've had one whole sunny day in the past 2 weeks and the temp didn't get above 25*F. If we were depending on solar for heat, all the energy produced would have been needed to heat the house. My passive solar heat and light works well only between 10 am and 3 pm, on a good day.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

I wish I was still going to be around when we go back to the horse and buggy days.


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## exodus (Jun 18, 2012)

Cornhusker said:


> Unicorn farts?


MINE solar


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## cornbread (Jul 4, 2005)

*Is the US and rural America ready for electric vehicles?*

No there are a joke on the America people.

The only electric vehicle I have is a E-Bike


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

gilberte said:


> I wish I was still going to be around when we go back to the horse and buggy days.


Our local seed company has an annual sale, I went there one year maybe five years back and as I stood in line. In front of me stood a man who has a team of work horses that compete in the fairs. And behind me stood one of his competitors. I learned a lot from listening to their conversation. Their horses are all over 20 years old. The economics simply do not exist for either of them to start a breeding program. They can just barely afford to feed and maintain the horses they have. When thinking about what it will take to return our nation to using horse-power, they both agreed the most aggressive breeding program would still take over a century to replace the quantity of horses we had a century ago.

Shires, Clydesdales, Percherons, Belgian Drafts, and Haflingers are a rarity today. Breeding takes time. Nobody has the spare cash to start a breeding program today. If we need them for hauling freight we would need to start breeding at least a century before.


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## Linda Mama Homestead (Nov 7, 2020)

Your point seems a little short-sided. You're speaking of developed mining operations that are in current production. Humans have not looked to develop Lithium mines until just recently. They have found a few large deposits in the US in the last 5 years alone. It will take another 5yrs to develop them. 

We can not burn gas or gasoline forever. 

Electric car. has a steep upfront cost, however at $5 a gallon here in California it pays for itself in just a few years. Then your drive and fill up for free.

If you want to make an argument around nonfossil fuel-based modes of transportation come up with a solution. When your choice is bad to worse, complaining is childish or destructive.

An Adult who has not seen a better option.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Linda Mama Homestead said:


> Your point seems a little short-sided. You're speaking of developed mining operations that are in current production. Humans have not looked to develop Lithium mines until just recently. They have found a few large deposits in the US in the last 5 years alone. It will take another 5yrs to develop them.
> 
> We can not burn gas or gasoline forever.
> 
> ...


Interesting I didn't know electricity was free in California. 😊


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Danaus29 said:


> The poster you quoted lives in Washington state. They have winter in Washington. 3 months of cloudy weather and less than 11 hours of daylight, and even fewer hours where the sun is capable of charging solar panels.


Its not just clouds and snow. Our land is on the north facing side of a canyon and the sun, if out, is behind the trees at the top from Nov through Feb 1. There is a bit of jealousy on the rare day of sunlight to see the other side of the canyon illuminated. But then, it has no trees.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

There is a bright side to the EV push, maybe it will affect the price of gas vehicles, bring them down a bit.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

People who come up with better choices sometimes end up dieing.









The mysterious death of Stanley Meyer - The Classic Car Trust


Was the man who could have upset the oil market poisoned by cranberry juice or taken by a stroke?




tcct.com


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

JRHill02 said:


> Its not just clouds and snow. Our land is on the north facing side of a canyon and the sun, if out, is behind the trees at the top. There is a bit of jealousy on the rare day of sunlight to see the other side of the canyon illuminated. But then, it has no trees.


Our cabin in PA never had sun shining in the windows. Between the mountains and trees the roof never was exposed to the sun. As long as you cleaned the moss off the roof, the shingles would last forever.

We have been told by several solar installers that our house will never make enough energy to pay for the system. My south facing front yard gets 8 hours of sun in a 16 hour day. And I live on top of a ridge.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

ET1 SS said:


> Okay, and?
> 
> Did you have some point you wanted to get to?
> 
> ...


It lookslike you're suffering from Cognitive Disonance---"If I spent an arm & leg on this thing, then I'm sure it must be worth it or I wouldn't have spent so much money."

In answer to your first point of ignporance-- While an EV motor is 90% effcient at turning electricity into kinetic energy, the battery it comes from is only 90% effcient at delivering it's charge, and the charger is only about 50% effcient at turning the juice it receives into stored energy in the battery, and the lines that deliver the juice from the generation facility to the charger loses about 10% along the way...And the coal fired genertion facility is only about 30% effcient at turning the chemical energy in the coal into electricity...Add it all together, and the EV dumps just as much co2 into the air as a typical ICE....No net "improvement" (if you think co2 is actually some kind of a problem for the environment.)

Range of 25 miles?...I, for one, live 13 miles from the nearest store. I could go shopping but would have to push it home the last mile (4 miles on a cold day). Your fall from 25 to 21 miles represents a 16% fall in "gas mileage" so to speak....and is equivalent to making a trip on only one gallon gas in the tank.....Thinking about it that way makes it sound pretty stupid.

I wouldn;t look to Europe for support. A "long haul" there is only a couple hundred miles. Germany, the biggest single area in the EU, is only about as big as WI,IL & IN put together....Look up the specs on the semi trailer trucks/ EV tractors made here-- range on a charge is less than 500 miles without a load. With load, it goes down drammatically, and for mountainous itinerary, they're useless...If they were so great, transportation companies would be gobbling them up to save fuel costs. It just doesn't work out economically for OTR applications.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Linda Mama Homestead said:


> Your point seems a little short-sided. You're speaking of developed mining operations that are in current production. Humans have not looked to develop Lithium mines until just recently. They have found a few large deposits in the US in the last 5 years alone. It will take another 5yrs to develop them.
> 
> We can not burn gas or gasoline forever.
> 
> ...


While it's true that fossil fuels are a finite resource that will necessarily be exhausted some day, Unreliabes (solar & wind) are not the solution, and EVs are for most applications inadequate with the available technology. Don't hold your breathe waiting for that "better battery." The math & physics tells us that we're almost at the theoretcial max now, so unless there's some new earth-shaking discovery, it just ain't gunna get any better. Keep in mind the basic paradigm for the chemical battery seems to have been discovered by the Babylonians, 4500 yrs ago and hasn't changed since-- just better materials....

We'll need to get serious about switching to EVs in a century or so, and at that point maybe the Watermelons will have finally been laughed into oblivion and we can then use nuclear power to generate the juice. (I wouldn't count on cold fusion, either-- Another Philosopher's Stone of futile searching.)


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## 67drake (May 6, 2020)

no really said:


> Interesting I didn't know electricity was free in California. 😊


Or that replacement battery


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## exodus (Jun 18, 2012)

Some use gas powered vehicles, some use diesel powered vehicles, some electric powered vehicles, others horse and buggy. We can use public transportation, a new thing is Uber or lyft. Some use and enjoy bicycle or good old fashion shoe leather. One size does not fit all. What works for you might not work for me.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Linda Mama Homestead said:


> Your point seems a little short-sided. You're speaking of developed mining operations that are in current production. Humans have not looked to develop Lithium mines until just recently. They have found a few large deposits in the US in the last 5 years alone. It will take another 5yrs to develop them.


I just saw an article about a 'new' lithium deposit they have found, it is the largest lithium deposit in the entire world. It is located here in Maine. But our state legislature has been busy making it extremely difficult to mine.





> ... has a steep upfront cost, however at $5 a gallon here in California it pays for itself in just a few years. Then your drive and fill up for free.


I bought a hybrid plug-in in 2017. At that time, it was the lowest price four-door sedan.

I am not sure what you mean when you say steep upfront cost, when they are the lowest price cars in production.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

no really said:


> Interesting I didn't know electricity was free in California. 😊


Here in Maine, there are public charging stations. Or if you dont like that just go out for dinner, restaurant chains are putting in charging stations in their parking lots.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

67drake said:


> Or that replacement battery


In ten years of driving you will spend a lot more on tires, then you would on the replacement battery.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

ET1 SS said:


> Here in Maine, there are public charging stations. Or if you dont like that just go out for dinner, restaurant chains are putting in charging stations in their parking lots.


So they are free?


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

no really said:


> So they are free?


*YES! YES! YES!*

The last time I attended a EV fair, they had charts up showing the 'true cost' of a re-charge. It seems to vary from one state to the next, between 15 cents and 20 cents per charge.

The cost of installing the charging station equipment is huge, if they included meters and tried to charge you, the accountants say they can never cover the cost of installing the stations. Businesses put them in as a way to attract more customers, as *a FREE service*.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

ET1 SS said:


> In ten years of driving you will spend a lot more on tires, then you would on the replacement battery.


??? Tires cost, say $500 a set and last 60,000 miles. Average driver goes 12,000 mi/yr, so each set lasts 5 yrs. First set came with the car. 2nd set is replacement and gets you another 5 yrs so total cost is just the $500 ( yea, if you wanna keep on driving, then you spend the next $500.....Battery pak on a Tesla is guaranteed for 10 yrs, If you wanna keep on driving after that, you gotta shell out another $10Gs-- or the price of 20 sets of tires.

For your little hybrid, that's 6 sets of tires for the cost of one battery replacement.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

ET1 SS said:


> *YES! YES! YES!*
> 
> The last time I attended a EV fair, they had charts up showing the 'true cost' of a re-charge. IT seems to vary from one state to the next, between 15 cents and 20 cents per charge.
> 
> The cost of installing the charging station equipment is huge, if they included meters and tried to charge you, the accountants say they can never cover the cost of installing the stations. Businesses put them in as a way to attract more customers, as *a FREE service*.


Now I'm really smiling...You don't understand how businesses are run, do you? YOU are paying for that FREE electricity.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

doc- said:


> ??? Tires cost, say $500 a set and last 60,000 miles. Average driver goes 12,000 mi/yr, so each set lasts 5 yrs. First set came with the car. 2nd set is replacement and gets you another 5 yrs so total cost is just the $500 ( yea, if you wanna keep on driving, then you spend the next $500.....Battery pak on a Tesla is guaranteed for 10 yrs, If you wanna keep on driving after that, you gotta shell out another $10Gs-- or the price of 20 sets of tires.
> 
> For your little hybrid, that's 6 sets of tires for the cost of one battery replacement.


Hold on in 2022 the cost to replace the HV battery is $3200 including labor fees.

STOP your $10G BS


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

ET1 SS said:


> Hold on in 2022 the cost to replace the HV battery is $3200 including labor fees.
> 
> STOP your $10G BS


What's your 
EV make and model?


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

ET1 SS said:


> Hold on in 2022 the cost to replace the HV battery is $3200 including labor fees.
> 
> STOP your $10G BS







__





tesla battery replacement cost at DuckDuckGo


DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.




duckduckgo.com






Tesla Model S Complete 60 Kwh Battery Pack. Removed From Model …
$12,000.00
eBay


2020 Tesla Model Y Long Range Battery Pack Module Complete Unit
$9,500.00
eBay

Your $3200 gets you 25 miles per trip. At least the Tesla has a range of 300 miles.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

doc- said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those are used... Wonder what new ones cost.
Tesla is not in my future.
@ 25 miles round trip, I couldn't get to a grocery store and back home.


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## robin416 (Dec 29, 2019)

Go into the tens on cost for new. I decided to take a look at battery replacement costs. I really wouldn't want to spend 12K on a replacement battery for a non Tesla but that's what it looks like they're going to cost out of warranty. And that doesn't include labor.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Tesla claiims their newest battery paks will last 20 yrs, but their confidence in that claim is perhaps demonstrated by their guarantee still at 10yrs. (???How could they know they'll last 20 yrs if they've only been around for a few months of development?)

Tech advances may evdentually change the data set on which we base our judgements in the future, but until then, I'll stick with my conclusion---EVs serve a limited niche purpose and are the wrong choice for most American drivers at this time.

Not ready for prime time.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

ET1 SS said:


> Okay, I had a house and lived in Bremerton Washington for 6 years. I get it.
> 
> For the past 17 years I have been living in Maine. Here in Maine winter is great for solar production.


I live in southern California, about as far south as you can get before you end up in Mexico.

We have enough panels and batteries to run the house completely "off grid" during the summer/fall, and enough excess generation to return power to the grid usually starting at noon. 

Our winters are often cloudy/foggy if not rainy. We've been using grid power on and off since about mid-December because of that.

We couldn't charge a car and run our house for the last two months without using (more) grid power. That will probably continue at least until the end of February/sometime into March if our historical weather persists this year. Then we have about 2-3 months where the marine layer (fog banks from the ocean - dubbed May Gray and June Gloom) lasts until about noon before it burns off, which also affects solar generation.

Just to point out it's not only a gloomy PNW issue. A lot of people in a lot of places would have to have many more solar panels/batteries to make it through the winter months powering both their home and EVs off the grid.


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## DKJ (Jan 17, 2021)

ET1 SS said:


> I think that in 2022, we are just as ready for EVs, as they were back in 1922 being ready for petroleum distribution in every town.
> 
> Tesla has made contracts with multiple restaurant chains nationwide to install recharging stations in their parking lots and every airport is putting them in their parking lots. You can drive the entire East Coast from St Johns, Canada to Miami Florida and never be out of range of a fast recharge.
> 
> ...


I'm curious, how much time does it take to do a fast recharge and how often can you drive on a charge? What happens in an emergency when the grid is down? I can store gas or diesel. I'm not opposed to the idea of having one family vehicle that is all electric. But it would take a lot for me to step off the cliff and only have a single electric car.

I live in Washington and they are proposing a special tax for folks/companies that drive electric cars. My sis has a hybrid and they already charge her more for her annual vehicle tabs because it is hybrid. The new mileage tax would be an additional expense for her if hybrids are included. I suspect that charge will be greater for all electric. Not exactly a great way to encourage folks to make the switch.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Ohio charges more for ev tags. Hybrids cost $100 and full electric costs $200 extra each year. Most of our road maintenance is funded by a gas tax. Electric vehicles use those roads. They should help pay to maintain them.









Falling Gas Tax Revenue Could Curb Ohio's Road Construction Projects


People are driving less during the pandemic, and that could potentially cause roadblocks in Ohio’s highway construction projects. That's one of the issues…




news.wosu.org


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## bubba42 (Jan 5, 2014)

bubba42 said:


> “If the world goes to electric vehicles by 2030, the mineral demands exceed the supply of all the mines that exist now, that are planned to be built today and all the mines we expect to build in the future,” Mills says. “It’s not going to happen.”
> 
> “According to Mills, China produces 80% to 90% of the world’s rare earth elements such as neodymium, an essential battery component. He says mineral shortages coupled with transportation issues make the 2030 electric vehicle goal “unrealistic.”
> 
> ...


There have been quite a few discussions in response to this post, yet few if any addressing what the article identified - that it will be impossible to supply the requirements. Also, there has been some misinformation concerning the current costs of EV batteries. Please note that I am not against EVs, but as someone starting a farm I view my truck as a tool budgeted for use on the farm. Here is a more realistic look at battery costs: Electric vehicle battery cost falls to $132 per kWh, but it might go up from there. 

Here is a survey on AgWeb that addresses WHY farmers haven’t adopted an “all in” mindset towards EVs. These same reasons have applicability to Homesteaders. All else aside, if there is no realistic ability to supply the components necessary for a complete shift (the actual article I posted), all other discussions would seem moot, regardless of one’s preference. https://www.agweb.com/news/machinery/new-machinery/whats-driving-farmers-opinions-electric-trucks


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

I like to point out that in the early 70s, when digital watches first hit the market, one would cost you $10,000- the price of a Cadillac...Within 4 yr, they were giving them away with a fill-up at the Purple Martin gas stations.

Market prices at first reflect the cost of R&D. The marginal profit determines prices ultimately-- As mass production comes on line with increasing demand, prices fall...But, as you and others point out, with certain required minerals in short supply (not to mention, supply controlled by our adversaries) it's unlikely prices will in fact fall.

While the US has huge deposits of the rare earths in question, it occurs here only in low grade ore, so the energy cost of extracting it will exceed its advantage. (Eg-- there's gold in all sea water, but it costs more to concentrate it than it's worth.)

We don;t have enough materials to build a fleet of all EVs, and we can't generate enough jiuce to power them...The Watermelons' push to do so it is purely a political ploy. They can't be that stupid to think it really can be done.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

HermitJohn said:


> Its pretty much same cars or guns, all they have to do is either ban ammo/gas or tax it into stratosphere. You going to hitch your team horses to your car? You better go buy some of that overpriced farmland to raise corn and then put up a still. LOL Course you can still ride your mule to town and make your own lead balls for your blunderbuss.


I can build modern firearms from scratch and make the ammunition as well… I’m not the least bit worried..


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

When my son got kicked off the school bus in Texas i would ride with him on horses. What a pain in the rass.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

ET1 SS said:


> I think that in 2022, we are just as ready for EVs, as they were back in 1922 being ready for petroleum distribution in every town.
> 
> Tesla has made contracts with multiple restaurant chains nationwide to install recharging stations in their parking lots and every airport is putting them in their parking lots. You can drive the entire East Coast from St Johns, Canada to Miami Florida and never be out of range of a fast recharge.
> 
> ...


The government did not provide grants in 1922 to install fuel stations. Why would they do so now? For that matter why provide grants to develop any part of the electric car program?


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Redlands Okie said:


> why provide grants to develop any part of the electric car program?


So, in typical government fashion, to set up a way to skim that (tax) grant money to go to your favorite group/person/cause.

There are vast swaths of the country where there are not charging stations for hundreds of miles.

Like busses, trolleys, and commuter trains, the EV may be appropriate in some cities, but will require massive improvement before it is appropriate for rural life.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Redlands Okie said:


> The government did not provide grants in 1922 to install fuel stations. Why would they do so now? For that matter why provide grants to develop any part of the electric car program?


One answer holds true....

To get people to do it so they can get paid. That way "they" ( politicians) can be elected again.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

doc- said:


> Now I'm really smiling...You don't understand how businesses are run, do you? YOU are paying for that FREE electricity.


Your correct. Every one eating there is paying for it. Regardless of how they got to the business.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)




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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Biden finally said the word Tesla today. He must be slipping.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Wrong thread.Sorry!


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Pony said:


> Wrong thread.Sorry!


Your EV broke down in the wrong place


----------

