# Cd+T vaccine and BoSe during pregnancy



## TRAILRIDER (Apr 16, 2007)

Hello All. I do NOT want to start a huge debate here. I just want to sort something out with your help. 
Yesterday I gave all of my does their Cd+T and Bose and trimmed their feet. They are all due in 3-5 weeks. They all look and feel fine, no reactions of any kind. I've given vacs and BoSe like this every year and had good results. My mother was asking why I give late pregnant goats vaccines. Why don't I do it before breeding them. If it is a 1 yr vaccine, why would the doe not be able to give her kids immunity then? And although Mom did not bring it up, a goat vet I used to go to said NEVER give BoSe to pregnant animals. And she showed me the bottle, "it says right here!" Yes, it says "Do not give to pregnant EWES." 
I am sure I am just going through that "My goats are getting close and I am getting paranoid" stage  You know the one  But can anyone clarify for me?


----------



## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

I know a neighbor who vaccinated his this year and is losing kids at birth left and right right now. We don't vaccinate. Not saying you shouldn't I just don't.


----------



## Kasidy (Oct 20, 2002)

I have raised sheep (60 head) and goats (8 head) for many many years and have always given cdt two weeks before first due date. I lose very few lambs and almost never lose a kid. We are okay on selenium in this area so never give BoSe.


----------



## RovingAcres (Mar 3, 2013)

You give the CDT in the month before lambing/kidding because then the mother's antibody levels are at the highest when she's producing colostrum so her babies are protected until their immune system is fully developed. Towards the end of vaccine coverage period the animal has a lower antibody level.

At least that's what I got out of an extension lecture on vaccinations! Don't remember what they said about selenium though.


----------



## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I always give CD & T vaccine 3-4 weeks before kidding & never lost any babies because of it(knock on wood) but I don't do Bo-Se so I can't help you with that one.

I'm sure your goats & the babies are going to be just fine. Just prekidding jitters I bet.


----------



## Frosted Mini's (Nov 29, 2012)

I think the reason for the vaccine at that time is that they have their highest immunity shortly after being vaccinated and so vaccinating them when they start making colostrum will help to get the MOST immunity into the colostrum for the kids. Not that there won't be any if they aren't vaccinated right before kidding, but just that there won't be as much. There is also some research that says that goats might only get 6 months of immunity from CDT vaccine, so a yearly shot may not be enough.

BoSe does say that, but I have given it to pregnant ewes also, with zero problems. I remember reading something about the warning being based on just one study done that showed a possible association or something like that to abortions in ewes. For one, those are sheep, not goats, and for two, lots and lots of people use it without issue in both species. If you live in a selenium deficient area, BoSe shots are practically a part of life.

I am guessing that the kids that are dieing at Vahomesteaders' neighbors are doing so for other reasons beside vaccinating. There are a lot of things that could kill young kids. Thousands of goats are given CD/T vaccines during pregnancy with no issues whatsoever. Unless the neighbor just got a bad batch or something (unlikely), I'd say there is something else going on there.


----------



## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

It's a one year shot but I recall protective immunity wanes around 6 months after giving the shot so in herds having problems, vaccination can be done in adults 2x per year - though at that point I'd get it cultured to make sure it's C and D types (and not A, which is much more uncommon but not in the vaccine), and evaluate your management to see where the problem is. It's MOSTLY a management disease in adults, and MOSTLY problematic in the kids especially as their diet is transitioning. Keep in mind Clostridium perfringens is an opportunistic pathogen - goats have these in their guts already and when the gut environment changes, it may make this opportunistic pathogen overgrow. There's different types and some are more pathogenic or common than others. This vaccine is a bacterin I *believe*, which are notorious for short terms of protectivity. THEY ARE STILL USEFUL IN TIMES OF INCREASED RISK, SUCH AS YOUNG KIDS ON TRANSITIONING DIETS, or during an outbreak. Just the nature of the game. Immunology course/book could probably explain it better than I could, as it's pretty complex.  

A vaccine stimulates the immune system so it has active antibodies floating around. A good vaccine will stimulate memory cells to develop so that if the animal is ever exposed in the future, the body will spring into action. Usually after several weeks after a vaccine, circulating antibodies will be very diminished - for some vaccines, that does NOT mean that it isn't protective, just that the body doesn't waste resources making antibodies to everything it's ever encountered. It uses memory cells. From my understanding, colostrum is representative of the pathogens the mother is experiencing in her environment daily or recently - this includes many, many things that don't make an immunocompetent animal sick but could harm a young animal with no immune system. Vaccinating close to parturition makes sure that the colostrum contains the antibodies to diseases you're worried about.


----------



## TRAILRIDER (Apr 16, 2007)

Thank you, that does make a lot of sense! My does have had big, strong, beautiful kids every year. And every one I know in goats (around KY where we are very selenium deficient) gives Cd+T and BoSe before kidding. I know mostly people who show. And I know their results. So I too have seen the good results of the program. 

Just the pre kidding jitters! I have seven does, three are 2 year old FF's. I wasn't sure if all three 2 year olds were bred. Two don't "look" pregnant. One is HUGE! (The huge one was a triplet herself, and her mama has had triplets for me each year.) Well, low and behold! The other two youngsters have udders developing! It looks like I will have seven does giving birth in a three week period! I am very excited and plan to keep any of the doelings that turn out nice. I promise pictures! Thanks again.


----------



## ljsjls (Jan 19, 2013)

Maybe this has already been asked, but here goes anyway. This year I vaccinated our pregnant does for CD&T on Feb. 17th. Yesterday when I went to the barn the older doe, a 4 year old Nubian had 2 dead kids in her pen. She was not due until March 17th. The kids appeared to be fully developed.

This is the first year I vaccinated while the goats were pregnant. I am baffled as to why this happened. After reading the above postings I'm still wondering what went wrong, but I admit my first reaction even before reading these postings caused me to wonder if the vaccine is to blame.

I have one more doe due to kid that same week March 18th. I will be watching her very close.

Thanks for any further information or input you may have.

Jean


----------



## TRAILRIDER (Apr 16, 2007)

ljsjls, I would be interested in the view points too. Sorry for you bad luck. My mother bred and showed dogs and she was under the impression that vaccines could harm the developing babies. I have personally only lost one kid. It was one of the triplets from last year. The triplets were full term, big and pretty. I wondered at the time if mama didn't have time to finish cleaning her before the next two arrived. The dead kid looked perfect in every way. But, sometimes things just happen too.


----------



## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

ljsjls said:


> Maybe this has already been asked, but here goes anyway. This year I vaccinated our pregnant does for CD&T on Feb. 17th. Yesterday when I went to the barn the older doe, a 4 year old Nubian had 2 dead kids in her pen. She was not due until March 17th. The kids appeared to be fully developed.
> 
> This is the first year I vaccinated while the goats were pregnant. I am baffled as to why this happened. After reading the above postings I'm still wondering what went wrong, but I admit my first reaction even before reading these postings caused me to wonder if the vaccine is to blame.
> 
> ...


My personal reaction to this? 

If a vaccine reaction, I would have expected it to be closer to the vaccination. I've not ever seen any information that this vaccine is more dangerous for pregnant animals/fetuses beyond the normal risks with any injection (anaphylaxis or allergic reaction). There are many reasons why late term abortions occur, and it is very unlikely that everything else was exactly the same as it has been in past years, even if it doesn't seem like it at first. 

There should be vaccine safety information and research available from the manufacturer as well.


----------



## TRAILRIDER (Apr 16, 2007)

Agreed. I would expect to see some kind of reaction closer to the date of vaccination too. And you are right, still born kids can happen for many reasons. Its very hard to tell what caused a problem. I have one more doe to vaccinate and I will get her taken care of tonight. She should be due the 2nd of April : )


----------



## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

I can't answer on the CDT since I don't use that anymore on my herd. BOSE is given 2 weeks prior to due date and each kid born is given a Vit. E capsule in the mouth .

Justine


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

BoSe is fine for goats, and we dose 2 weeks prior to due date.

BoSe in sheep will cause abortions.


----------

