# "You’re Now Leaving the USA"Antifa Activists Take Over Six City Blocks in Seattle



## remmettn (Dec 26, 2005)

https://theconservativetreehouse.co...-create-lawless-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/

Antifa Activists Take Over Six City Blocks in Seattle 
It is really quite stunning how the U.S. media have avoided reporting on a group of activists in Seattle who have taken over part of the city surrounding the abandoned East precinct police station. No-one is being allowed inside what they are calling a “Free Capitol Hill Zone” or “Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone (CHAZ).

The activists have barricaded the streets and will not let any journalists or city officials inside their declared zone of control. The region expands across six blocks as outlined by the occupying groups. Information on the encampment AVAILABLE HERE:

According to the area activists the East precint of the police station is called the “captured regime” (above blue). Journalist Julio Rosas tweeted photos from the ‘Zone,’ including flyers demanding that Seattle PD be defunded, and declaring that police _“will always be racist because capitalism requires inequality.”_

Independent journalist Andy Ngo has a great deal of familiarity with the groups assembled in the occupying effort. He describes the group in control of the area as _“Antifa,”_ and cited tweets to suggest there were armed guards guarding entry among the occupy protestors.

I don't know were this will go?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Antifa is reportedly seeking armed volunteers to take turns manning barricades and holding ground that protesters have seized within Seattle city limits.

The Gateway Pundit reports Antifa set up an “autonomous zone” that includes six square blocks they seized in Seattle. They are reportedly “advocating for ‘folks with firearms’ to take shifts defending the barricades” around the six blocks
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...-volunteers-to-hold-seized-ground-in-seattle/


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

So, the city government has sided with the rioters, and the police have been ordered out of the area. What about the businesses in the area, and the people who live there? Did anybody ask them, if they wanted to be occupied? And now the rioters are demanding money from the locals, to fund the occupation.

Blocking the road in front of my house, and then demanding I give you money would not end like hoped it would. That would become a target rich environment.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Terrorists, plain and simple. They should be treated accordingly.


----------



## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

I think Seattle and Portland is a sanctuary city for Antifa.


----------



## damoc (Jul 14, 2007)

I think ANTIFA will not be as happy as they think when they get what they want.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

po boy said:


> I think Seattle and Portland is a sanctuary city for Antifa.


It might be better for them to break away from the Democratic party and start their own. They seem to have a pretty good voting block.


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

no really said:


> Terrorists, plain and simple. They should be treated accordingly.


Exactly, they should count there lucky stars that I no longer live in that area...


----------



## TroyT (Jun 24, 2008)

The area is Capital Hill the land of the "You shouldn't think like that..." crowd. It's about what you would expect, there is a statue of Lenin in Fremont not too far from CHAZ (Capital Hill Autonomous Zone) Yep it has a name. These are also the same people that say that there should be no borders or a border wall. What's the first thing they do... Put up a wall and establish a border.


----------



## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

I say let Seattle enjoy what they have been voting for for many years now.

Not my problem until they crawl out of Seattle.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

It may not be your problem. It certainly doesn't affect me at this point where I live. But it is becoming accepted behavior by leaders and it has trickled down to the liberal populace. 
Note the number of posters here who get their hair unkinked over their perception of non pc opinions or beliefs, yet they tick a lock over the violence, rapes, assaults, robbery and fear occurring to innocent American citizens by these groups.
You might hear someone state, _"I don't stand for all of the things they do, but..."_ lol.
If the Klan donated money for cancer research would it be ok to apply that logic? It's priceless. 

It seems to be condoned by them because it is all for "the cause."


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

And no reported crime or looting/burning so far...


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

JeepHammer said:


> And no reported crime or looting/burning so far...


Many crimes have been reported and many are also documented on video.


----------



## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

no really said:


> Terrorists, plain and simple. They should be treated accordingly.


I agree


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> And no reported crime or looting/burning so far...


You should clear some ground in your yard and throw up some tents for the Indiana division so they can camp and poop and give you their menu and daily requirements while they plan their Indianapolis campaign. Throw a few bucks their way if you can; they should be good for it until their parents send over their trust fund checks on the 3rd.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> Many crimes have been reported and many are also documented on video.


You mean like on Faux News?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ython-joke-seattle-protests-a9565506.html?amp


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

JeepHammer said:


> You mean like on Faux News?
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ython-joke-seattle-protests-a9565506.html?amp


As reported by the Seattle PD police chief and others...Oh and if you don't think an armed take over of several city blocks ,sexual assault,theft and extortion is a crime then you are part of the problem...


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> You mean like on Faux News?
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ython-joke-seattle-protests-a9565506.html?amp


You should upgrade to youtube red. It costs a few bucks but you can get platinum level Koolaid that even Jake Tapper doesn't have access to.


----------



## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

JeepHammer said:


> You mean like on Faux News?
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ython-joke-seattle-protests-a9565506.html?amp


So... thats what you focus on?

Rape, property destruction, folks being harrased just for trying to go to and from work and living there, that doesn't raise an issue?

And maybe it does follow loosely a Monty Python joke, but that doesn't mean they didn't mean it for real 

They are complete dumbasses, so it would follow, they didn't realize Monty Python was a comedy Troup and thought they were an actual political party.

They are dumber than even a stupid moron, so...


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Since Faux News reported a Monty Python joke as factual News, 
And my face mask is about your politics and not my health,
I'm *Supposed* to believe the far right party line and everyone in the 6 block area was murdered, then burned, then raped...

You all are starting to sound like the offspring of Monty Python and Arlo Guthrie (Alice's Restaurant)...

I'm doing fine on the group W bench, no need to continue trying to 'Convert' (or insult) me...


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

It seems with about every 3rd or fourth post you make, I have to ask you to provide a link to your statement.
Why? 
Because it isn't even worthy of being considered nonsense.
Can you provide even a link from a comic book that says everyone in a 6 block area of Seattle was murdered?
But, if you believe it was little more than a street party, grab your onesie and thumb your way northwest.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

It's not going to be popular, but here is what's actually going on in Portland...

https://www.politico.com/amp/news/m...ally-going-on-in-seattles-protest-zone-321507

https://www.politico.com/amp/news/m...ally-going-on-in-seattles-protest-zone-321507


----------



## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

JeepHammer said:


> It's not going to be popular, but here is what's actually going on in Portland...
> 
> https://www.politico.com/amp/news/m...ally-going-on-in-seattles-protest-zone-321507
> 
> https://www.politico.com/amp/news/m...ally-going-on-in-seattles-protest-zone-321507


You spelled Seattle wrong.


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

JeepHammer said:


> It's not going to be popular, but here is what's actually going on in Portland...
> 
> https://www.politico.com/amp/news/m...ally-going-on-in-seattles-protest-zone-321507
> 
> https://www.politico.com/amp/news/m...ally-going-on-in-seattles-protest-zone-321507


It's nothing but propaganda... just like when the MSM saying a far right white supremacist fired into the crowd in NM. More than one video has now come out exposing that to be false. The man was attacked more than once by multiple people some of which had weapons and were screaming they'd kill him...he fired in self defense. The same goes for what's coming out of Antifastan..they don't show the full picture such as physical and sexual assaults,thefts,robberies and extortion.....I trust absolutely ZERO of what comes from the left and little of what comes from the right.Not to mention the one guy handing out AR 15's out of the back of his car......


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> And no reported crime or looting/burning so far...


That's not true at all.
https://www.lifezette.com/2020/06/s...ening-in-the-chaz-cops-arent-able-to-respond/







JeepHammer said:


> It's *not going to be popular*, but here is what's actually going on in Portland...


I find your posts highly entertaining.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

After the 'Bodies Rotting In The Streets' and 'Everyone Raped' reports from the far right, I just watched the YouTube and live feeds, didn't seem like there was too much going on.
One was pretty much 3 hours of a woman in a lawn chair, reading a book and welcoming people to the 'Free Zone', another was a live feed from a city street which looked pretty normal,
One was a tower cam that showed about 20-30 people protesting at the barrier, and the rest looked like pretty normal foot, bicycle & commuter car traffic.

I mean far right has been reporting explosions & fires constantly, but the tower cam didn't show any smoke, and it's only 6 blocks, how many times could you burn things down without any burned buildings showing up...
You would think by now there wouldn't be anything left.

This morning it was showing the garbage trucks making pickups...
How bad can it be if trash pickup is happening?

Now, since I'm not an extremist on either side,
And unlike the far right guys, I'm not actually there, so I can't tell you exactly what's going on...
(... Neither can they... Think about that, these far right types aren't there either...)

But... it looks pretty calm other than some peaceful protesting...
Sign waving saying 'Hooray For Us' or whatever.

Just in case you are wondering, there are like a dozen live feeds,
And hundreds of videos coming out of the woodwork, so no one is concerned enough to shut down video feeds...
Somebody is still paying their bills!


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> It's nothing but propaganda... just like when the MSM saying a far right white supremacist fired into the crowd in NM. More than one video has now come out exposing that to be false. The man was attacked more than once by multiple people some of which had weapons and were screaming they'd kill him...he fired in self defense. The same goes for what's coming out of Antifastan..they don't show the full picture such as physical and sexual assaults,thefts,robberies and extortion.....I trust absolutely ZERO of what comes from the left and little of what comes from the right.Not to mention the one guy handing out AR 15's out of the back of his car......


Traditionally, the extreme far ends of the spectrum are who does the shooting, burning, looting.
KKK/White Supremacists driving into crowds, showing up to bust heads, bringing firearms into an already volatile mix.

Or the looters/rioters on the other end of the spectrum.

Reports of crazy far right showing up doesn't surprise me, they have had time to get there to fan the flames and see what they can get away with.
Takes them a while to crawl out of their holes, load up on firearms/ammo, travel, find the spots they can assemble SAFELY to see what they can get away with...

What I see is peaceful protesters in the daytime, but having families they have to go home in the evenings, then the street thugs take over in spontaneous protests.
The peaceful types have spent a long day on pavement, are ready to go home around 4pm.

And if it goes on long enough, or it's planned by far right, the fringe groups show up to cause trouble...
Just my observations.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> Just in case you are wondering, there are like a dozen live feeds,





JeepHammer said:


> Just my observations.


Feel free to post up the links to what you're watching.


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

JeepHammer said:


> Traditionally, the extreme far ends of the spectrum are who does the shooting, burning, looting.
> KKK/White Supremacists driving into crowds, showing up to bust heads, bringing firearms into an already volatile mix.
> 
> Or the looters/rioters on the other end of the spectrum.
> ...


 I dunno what kind of drugs you're on....but they're having a powerful effect on your mind.
Anyone and everyone that speaks against the lunacy and criminal activity of the left get's labeled as "far right"...and that's just more leftist propaganda... just like your posts... It wasn't the "far right" that was handing out AR 15's in Antifastan.....it was the "Far Left".


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> I dunno what kind of drugs you're on....but they're having a powerful effect on your mind.
> Anyone and everyone that speaks against the lunacy and criminal activity of the left get's labeled as "far right"...and that's just more leftist propaganda... just like your posts... It wasn't the "far right" that was handing out AR 15's in Antifastan.....it was the "Far Left".


Well, since the coffee shops in the 6 block zone didn't close, I'm wondering how far out of proportion the far right is blowing this up...?

I even question the thread is 'Survival' since literally nothing has changed but some protesters & barricades...
Grub Hub is still delivering from restaurants inside the 6 block zone...
I'm not sure having Grub Hub & Starbucks available would be considered a 'Survival' or 'Emergency' situation...
But then again I've actually seen survival, emergency, government overthrow situations, so my standard for being in survival or emergency situation might be higher than yours.

I'll give you a hint,
Any group wanting to burn books will eventually burn people if left unchecked.
I'm not seeing book burning going on...

NAZIs/ISIS isn't rolling down the street in tanks, so I'm thinking it's an over reaction to a bunch of people that raised road blocks, protest, and aren't killing, raping, burning, looting, etc.

Funny, out of all the protests, the only guns I saw were hauled I to government building, protests BY FAR RIGHT...
The ANTIFA or BLM or whatever, it's been the counter protesters, KKK, NAZIs/Neo NAZIs, etc that openly carry firearms.

It was a KKK member that drive into protesters around police road blocks, in all three cases.
It's far right, white supremacists shooting up churches.
I'm sure the facts don't fit your diatribe but it doesn't make them any less true...

I have to wonder about your 'Airborne' thing,
Since all military swear a life long commitment to the CONSTITUTION,
And the Constitution guarantees a right to gather, protest, make their views known,
And guarantees no totalitarian actions against the citizens,
Exactly how far your commitment to protecting the citizens (We The People), and NOT the government institutions goes?

It's the 'Conservatives' that don't want to stop racism, they *Think* they are loosing 'Rights' they don't actually have, since by protection of the Constitution all people are equal...
You will be a LOT happier when you support the moral/ethical things rather than constantly attempting to defend the indefensible.
That just has to be exhausting and frustrating since you are safe at home, stewing on the far right propaganda and the frustration in doing nothing but ranting on the internet, instead of actually doing something constructive...


----------



## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

No book burning?

Movies getting pulled from streaming services.

Books being pulled from library shelves so no one is offended or has to think for themselves.


Nope. No book burning here, because there are no flames I suppose.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Rodeo's Bud said:


> No book burning?
> 
> Movies getting pulled from streaming services.


HOW DARE THEY pull movies ("entertainment") from your services! 
It's not like they marched out, burned every copy, murdered everyone that saw the movies...



> Books being pulled from library shelves so no one is offended or has to think for themselves.


Again, libraries are PUBLIC domain, can make their own rules about what's 'Proper' for the area they are in.
Racks & racks of porno aren't in public libraries, where is your outrage over that?
Or racks of ISIS propaganda aimed at children, to recruit them, where is your outrage over that?

It's a question of what's APPROPRIATE for the clientele/age/education of the users.

Personally, I'm happy the terrorist bomb manual isn't required reading, 
But can be found in an appropriate audience, or someone interested in that particular subject.



> Nope. No book burning here, because there are no flames I suppose.


Exactly, no book burning, but the backhanded comment doesn't support what you write.
*IF* someone gave your 4 year old girl graphic hard core porn, that wouldn't be appropriate.
*IF* someone gives a 12 year old boy a book on bomb making, that wouldn't be appropriate.
*IF* a private company declines to run movies that offend customers, that's not book burning, it's their version of appropriate content, it's their business to do with what they deem appropriate...

While 'Christians' *Think* it's fine to burn the Quran, 
They *Think* the Bible (dozens of versions) should be protected...
Neither realize the bigger picture, the Constitution guarantees both actions under the freedom of speech/expression,
AND,
They don't realize that both religions are protected under the Constitution, 
Without that, they would have been forced into a specific (or no) practice of religion.

Just because you have 'Rights' doesn't mean you have to club everyone with *YOUR* version of what you *THINK* it means...
While you have the 'Right' to give porn or bomb making instructions to children, in no way is that *Appropriate*.

*YOU* haven't "LOST" anything, just mad because the services won't stream the stuff you apparently want.
Guess you will have to get off your wallet and rent/buy the stuff you want.

I would suggest you read the Constitution, and a few books by actual experts on the Constitution so you understand what's happening a little better...
But I'm sure the 'Shoot Em Up' movie with a hundred stereotypes, inappropriate launguage, things the kids shouldn't see, and completely fictional (no useful content) will win out 999 times out of 1,000.


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

JeepHammer said:


> Well, since the coffee shops in the 6 block zone didn't close, I'm wondering how far out of proportion the far right is blowing this up...?
> 
> I even question the thread is 'Survival' since literally nothing has changed but some protesters & barricades...
> Grub Hub is still delivering from restaurants inside the 6 block zone...
> ...


* Now I know for sure that you're either blind or willingly ignorant of the facts...
Show links to each and every case where YOU say that KKK members have driven around police roadblocks... and show documented "proof" of their membership in the KKK.
The self appointed leader of "chaz" is on video not only wearing body armor and carrying an AR 15,he's seen distributing AR 15 rifles to others within the armed compound, some of which do not look old enough to be in legal possession of the weapon.
You wouldn't know facts if they bit you in your.........Well I can't say it here.
I'm quite sure that should we ever meet in person you'd no longer have any doubts whatsoever about my "Airborne Training" or my oath to support and defend the US Constitution against all enemies "foreign and domestic"...
Although most military members take the oath and personally consider it a life long oath,it is technically only for one's period of enlistment/commission.
Since you don't really know what the oath of enlistment says here it is. * *"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." 
While the Bill of Rights gives all Americans the right to peacefully assemble and to protest,it doesn't give them the right to an armed take over of the city ,the right to destroy and deface public property,the right to set up barricades and roadblocks to restrict the entry into or from the area by any other citizen or government official.It doesn't give them the right to physically or sexually assault anyone,to steal from them or to extort money from the local businesses and citizens living and working within the area.All of which has happened according to the Seattle PD police chief . The Seattle Police Chief just happens to be a person of color BTW...just in case you didn't know.
Just how is it that you know what conservatives "think"?  Oh , your statement of "It's the conservatives that don't want to stop racism" has to be one of the most bold lies I've yet to hear from you.
As for what I do at home other than my Farming,Forging and Custom Knife Work I'm a Professional Shooting Instructor,I train Men and Women to protect and defend themselves,their families and their friends using their 2nd Amendment Rights to "Keep and Bear Arms"...We're a Community with the mindset that Our Self Defense and Well Being is not just Our Right but also Our Responsibility. "We Train Knowing That We Are Our Own Last Line of Defense". I'd say that's pretty constructive...and when I'm done training for the day I clean my guns as if my life depended on it....Just a Little Bit of My "Airborne Training"....*


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> * Now I know for sure that you're either blind or willingly ignorant of the facts...
> Show links to each and every case where YOU say that KKK members have driven around police roadblocks... and show documented "proof" of their membership in the KKK.
> The self appointed leader of "chaz" is on video not only wearing body armor and carrying an AR 15,he's seen distributing AR 15 rifles to others within the armed compound, some of which do not look old enough to be in legal possession of the weapon.
> You wouldn't know facts if they bit you in your.........Well I can't say it here.
> ...


Darn, you type faster than I do.


----------



## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

JeepHammer said:


> HOW DARE THEY pull movies ("entertainment") from your services!
> It's not like they marched out, burned every copy, murdered everyone that saw the movies...
> 
> 
> ...


So Huck Finn is porn? Must be as they want it out of libraries. People should be able to read Uncle Tom's Cabin and decide what they think of it.

Many other books that are pulled from library shelves.

Having drag queens roll on the floor hugging kids is probably more offensive to most people than Huck Finn ever was.

Porn? How about the fact that the local libraries must allow people to watch porn on public computers, as it has been determined to be their right.

So yeah, hard core porn.

I don't want to pick a fight, as I am not here for politics, but you seem to be purposefully obtuse and are picking very fine nits.

The way the left is getting rid of anything that proves that they are the party of past slavery and racism is very telling.

If you come back and say that the Democrats are not the party of slavery and racism, you are just a troll. It is proven and historical.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Still waiting on those live feed links showing peaceknicks sharing doobies and condoms with the residents and business owners of New Seattle.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

JeepHammer said:


> instead of actually doing something constructive...


So, if I go out and burn down the businesses of people who I don't know, and who have never done anything to me. Would you consider that constructive? Because none of the counter protesters carrying rifles have looted anything, or burned anything down, or even blocked a street. If I break some windows, tag a few walls, pull down a statue of George Washington, would that be constructive? 

Please, I am really interested in your opinion on this. Oh by the way, have you looked into that professional help and those psych meds yet?


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

muleskinner2 said:


> Darn, you type faster than I do.


Two fingers at blazing speeds..lol


----------



## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

Just watched the 1971 classic movie “Nicholas and Alexandra”. The similarities in events is astounding.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

The UCMJ aside, you *Should* have been trained to specifically ignore/disobey ILLEGAL orders when they contradict the Constitution.
The Constitution being the first thing you uphold.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/12/virginia-unite-the-right-rally-protest-violence

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ally-thousands-robert-e-lee-statue/561833001/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/harry-...-driving-into-protesters-virginia-police-say/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally

https://abcnews.go.com/US/happen-charlottesville-protest-anniversary-weekend/story?id=57107500

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/local/charlottesville-timeline/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/confederate-statues-george-floyd.html

https://www.npr.org/2020/05/14/8559...in-at-michigans-capitol-denouncing-home-order

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50148024

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/proud-boys-antifa-portland-rally-873291/

https://www.opb.org/news/article/patriot-prayer-proud-boys-political-violence-law-enforcement/

There is like 390,000 other references, but of course, if you are at.right everything is 'Fake' but what supports your own "Beliefs"...
The fact that I had to remove half a dozen referenced news stories from "Banned" sources proves the point here in right wing land.


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

JeepHammer said:


> The UCMJ aside, you *Should* have been trained to specifically ignore/disobey ILLEGAL orders when they contradict the Constitution.
> The Constitution being the first thing you uphold.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/12/virginia-unite-the-right-rally-protest-violence
> ...


Every link you posted is leftist garbage, but then that's exactly what I would expect from you.
As a senior NCO I was more than just well trained in how to deal with "Illegal orders",I was experienced with dealing with them... and the ones I refused to follow all came from leftist scumbags....Go back and hide under your rock until you grow up.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> Every link you posted is leftist garbage, but then that's exactly what I would expect from you.
> As a senior NCO I was more than just well trained in how to deal with "Illegal orders",I was experienced with dealing with them... and the ones I refused to follow all came from leftist scumbags....Go back and hide under your rock until you grow up.


Sure, call me a "Leftist Scumbag" since you won't consider any viewpoint than the one you currently have...
Everything anyone posts is "Leftist Garbage" unless it fits into your pre-existing "Beliefs".
Is that pretty much accurate statement?

Sounds pretty much like a fascists propaganda filter to me, but to each their own...

---------------

As for 'Senior NCO', no secret I was a senior NCO in the Marines.
Did 16 years, from the end of the Carter adminstration through the Reagan years, and well into the Clinton adminstration.

Now, if you would like a list of exactly what Reagan did that was against US or international law, that I directly observed, I will provide that...
From making illegal high tech weapons sales to terrorist nation (Iran) when he wasn't even president (President Elect),
To selling chemical & biological warfare production to Iraq in violation of US & International law,
To supplying both sides of the Iran-Iraq war, a war crime under international law, against US treaty, and against US law since it wasn't approved by congress.

Then there is using the weapons money sales to invent the 'Contra Army' in central American to attack a "Communist" country, Nicaragua, because he didn't understand the difference between a military dictatorships, socialism, and communism.
He used the excuse Nicaragua was 70 miles from the Panama canal, a US possession at the time, but declassified documents (via Congressional investigation) show he simply couldn't understand the difference between socialism & communism.

Now, let's not forget the cocane smuggling to support that illegal war in Central America which gave rise to the cocane/crack epidemic in the US,
The CIA moved cocane north, guns & money south.
Again, proven without a shadow of a doubt in the Iran-Contra Congressional hearings.

And let's not forget teaching insurgency tactics to the Mujahideen which US commanders BEGGED the Reagan adminstration NOT to do, not to let that genie out of the bottle...
It worked to drive the Soviet army out of Afghanistan in '89, but it worked equally as well for Al-Qaeda, Taliban & ISIS to kill US troops from 2001 to current...

And let's not forget about Central America that wound up fighting a 30+ year war with the remants of the 'Contra Army',
First recruited, trained & equipped by the Reagan adminstration for an illegal war with Nicaragua,
When the Iran-Contra Congressional investigation stopped that,
Those mercenaries went to work for the drug cartels,
So we had to fight the drug cartels,
Then they took over the drug trade as actual Communists, and the drug profits finance communism to this day in Central America & South America.

-----------------

So when you start with that ***********/conspiracy theory crap, all the way to lizard people from space controlling the government, I can't wonder about you when the actual conspiracies are proven, factual, on record, and you simply refuse to acknowledge them because your indoctrination of far right propaganda has limited your ability to use your brain...

*IF* pushed, my rifle will be pointed OUTWARDS from "We The People", towards the people with guns coming for "We The People".
It would have to get pretty desperate for an old, disabled Marine to get dragged into a situation like that, I'm not exactly first choice for ANY military...
While not shooting in anger anymore, I still practice at 800 yards to keep my skills up should I ever be called on again (and elminating pests smaller than humans).

All I can say is when the white supremacists/NAZIs, etc become enough of a problem the actual, active duty military needs to engage these terrorists,
They will learn why they are afraid of the dark, and I suspect it won't be long before these terrorists raise the correct 'Rebel' flag, the white flag of surrender, yet again...
That's *IF* they survive.

A scavenger doesn't stand much of a chance with professional predators, and the professional predators will be hunting scavengers/terrorists...
The full resources of the government will be at the disposal of the military,
The 'Anonymity' of the internet is an illusion, so it won't be hard to find the people stoking the fires, they would have your home address!
"Fish In A Barrel" comes to mind...


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

JeepHammer said:


> Sure, call me a "Leftist Scumbag" since you won't consider any viewpoint than the one you currently have...
> Everything anyone posts is "Leftist Garbage" unless it fits into your pre-existing "Beliefs".
> Is that pretty much accurate statement?
> 
> ...


All of the BS you listed concerning Reagan is completely irrelevant to what's being discussed...Show me anywhere I've posted anything about "***********" or Lizard People....Sounds to me like you've either been taking too many drugs or not enough.
Everything anyone posts is "Fascist Propaganda" if it doesn't fit you pre existing beliefs.
*IF* pushed, my rifle will be pointed OUTWARDS from "We The People", towards the people with guns coming for "We The People".....and those people are currently the leftist scum burning cities to the ground,tearing down statues,monuments,burning museums,physically assaulting and killing innocent people both civilians and LEO's. Their actions are no less than a leftist coup trying to topple the government of this Republic.
I would completely disagree about your being first choice for any military,you've obviously met the propaganda requirement criteria to be the perfect communist party comrade. It's pretty clear to see that you've consumed far too many crayons and gallons of Kool Aid,the toxic effects are showing...
The Terrorists that need to be engaged by the US military are the Antifa/BLM leftists that are violently rioting and killing people around the nation.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> doing nothing but ranting on the internet


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> As for 'Senior NCO', no secret I was a senior NCO in the Marines.


That certainly doesn't help their image.



JeepHammer said:


> A scavenger doesn't stand much of a chance with *professional predators*, and the professional predators will be hunting scavengers/terrorists...
> *The full resources of the government will be at the disposal of the military*,


Maybe they will "draft" you to haul their chickens.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Show me the 'Leftists Scumbag Cities' (direct quote popular on alt.right forums) that are "burned to the ground"...

Show me just ONE city that's burned to the ground...
Since that's your direct quote, random building fires down count.
You have to PROVE what you said, show an entire city burned to the ground by "Leftist Scumbags" in the current situation...

OR,
By not proving your claim, proving you simply told the lies over again circulating on the far right, NAZI/White Supremacists/Fascists web sites,
Simply regurgitating the anti-constitutional party line in hopes of duping the American public into doing nothing yet again...

YOU backed yourself into a corner here with the propaganda statement, so PROVE it.
No matter how many links people find and post that refute *YOUR* "Beliefs", you simply refuse to believe the American people ("We The People") are sick and fed up with the 'Status Quo"...
They are *Trying* to drag 'Conservatives' out of the 1850s BEFORE it comes to armed confrontation, but you simply won't listen.
That's why the Constitution specifically protects the right to free speech, to assemble, to protest... Since you didn't understand that.

The Military is constitutionally mandated to protect "We The People" from idiots, NAZIs, white supremacists, fascists, Communists, etc.
Pushing the protest to armed uprising, and seeing how it's the NAZIs, white supremacists, anti-constitutional 'Bugaloo' morons, etc that keep showing up heavily armed,
That would be who were in my sights, not unarmed, peaceful protesters, or even the civil unrest rioters, even though I don't agree with rioting in any form since it's against the rule of law and denies the rights of lawful citizens...

AND,
In case you weren't keeping up with actual news/events,
The military isn't happy about being used by the current adminstration which violates the Constitution...
That would indicate to me their ethical compass isn't skewed by the current adminstration...
Not likely they will fire on massed citizens unless those citizens are engaged in armed insurrection against the general public, and that's how it should be.

-------- 

So when you come e up with those pictures of entire cities burned to the ground, post them up...


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




----------



## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

JeepHammer said:


> And no reported crime or looting/burning so far...





JeepHammer said:


> ...so I'm thinking it's an over reaction to a bunch of people that raised road blocks, protest, and aren't killing, ...


Given the reporting of one dead and one in critical condition... from a shooting in the twilight errr... occupied zone last night... would you like to amend your earlier posts??? Especially considering police and medical services were prevented from tending the injured and investigating the crime. If you seriously think this is the first, or the last maybe you are already in at least one of "the zones".


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

JeepHammer said:


> Show me the 'Leftists Scumbag Cities' (direct quote popular on alt.right forums) that are "burned to the ground"...
> 
> Show me just ONE city that's burned to the ground...
> Since that's your direct quote, random building fires down count.
> ...


*Are you so stupid to think that every single building in a city has to be in ashes before someone would describe the city as being burned to the ground? We already know the answer to that question, it's Yes you are!!! You should really work on your reading comprehension skills.
You talk a lot of sheet...always squealing about Nazi's,White supremacists etc and yet you're blind the the violence cause by your buddies the leftist ,socialist communist scum that you label as "protesters"...It's obvious that you yourself are a Domestic Enemy to the Constitution of the USA.
" The Military is constitutionally mandated to protect "We The People" from idiots, NAZIs, white supremacists, fascists, Communists, etc. " This is correct and exactly why you should be worried!
You keep talking about the "right" showing up heavily armed... if that was the case these riots would have long since ended by now...Your support for a Marxist coup attempt shows exactly where you stand when it comes to the Constitution.
The military hasn't been used in anyway that violates the constitution....only a leftist or a crackhead would think it has...
Oh and speaking of what's in your sights,I'm definitely not concerned in the least...
As for trying to drag Conservatives out of the 1850's...you might want pull your head out of your.......first !*


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

*YOU* wrote that cities were burned to the ground...
I'd like to see those entire cities burned to the ground, 
If there aren't entire cities burned to the ground, that makes your unequivocal statement an outright lie.

Blowing the actual facts way out of proportion isn't limited to the media...

It's even worse with the 'Extremists' that believe *ANY* means justify the results.
It's simple, you can't trust the word of extremists, they say/do *ANYTHING* to push their agenda...

Since I've been 'Moderated' yet again...
I have to be very careful what I write.

I (personally) think you are a liar since I can find no trace of "Cities Burning To The Ground".
It would be up to others to read your post, and decide if your unequivocal statement is false or not.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

homesteadforty said:


> Given the reporting of one dead and one in critical condition... from a shooting in the twilight errr... occupied zone last night... would you like to amend your earlier posts??? Especially considering police and medical services were prevented from tending the injured and investigating the crime. If you seriously think this is the first, or the last maybe you are already in at least one of "the zones".


Crime in a city at night... 
Did you do any information collection about shootings outside the 6 blocks?
How about in other cities?

*IF* firearms were handed out by the carload, and everyone was armed, how did this happen?
What about the details of what caused the shootings?
Who shot whom? 
What transpired to make people shoot?
I'll wait for details from someone that know what they are talking about...

*And look at the reports!
Police have entered the free zone to investigate the shooting, 
And look at that again!
Protest leaders are cooperating with police to find the shooter & investigate the shooting!

Sure doesn't sound like "Burned To The Ground" to me, but I'm sure you have a different take on things...

-----------

Mass shootings in Syracuse, NY. and Minneapolis, MN. last night...
Are you going to blame the free zone half way and all the way across the country for that also?*


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

So it is a "free zone" now, lol.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> So it is a "free zone" now, lol.


It was called a "Police Free Zone", 
But since police are investigating the shootings, and working with protest organizers, it's not "Police Free" anymore.

I have no idea what your random comment was supposed to add to the conversation, but it's not exactly "Police Free" anymore.
It's very hard to tell what you intend to say when you write such random strings of words that make little to no sense to those you inflict them on.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

JeepHammer said:


> It's very hard to tell what you intend to say when you write such random strings of words that make little to no sense to those you inflict them on.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Police free zones are not new. They exist in large urban crime centers such as Gary, Indiana and South Chicago, Baltimore, and the list is growing.

Police free zone carries about as much credibility as a gun free zone does for safety.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

JeepHammer said:


> I'd like to see those entire cities burned to the ground,


I am sure you would.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> Police free zones are not new. They exist in large urban crime centers such as Gary, Indiana and South Chicago, Baltimore, and the list is growing.
> 
> Police free zone carries about as much credibility as a gun free zone does for safety.


Feeling better? That was almost coherent and on topic...

Police Free zones are nothing new, usually gated communities & 'Estates'.
I'm not aware of any police free zones in the areas you list, and I just happen to frequant all of the above.
I've been driving through, and delivering in Baltimore almost weekly since the COVID thing started, 
I've also delivered to South Chicago & Gary Indiana in the last month.
Didn't see any "Police Free Zones" and in fact the opposite, a BUNCH of police compared to the police patrols where I live.

But, once again, you are off topic,
The subject was SPECIFICALLY the Seattle "Police Free Zone" which is no longer police free.
And unlike the far right, it's not "Cities Burned To The Ground" or a 'Communist Takeover' of the citizens....
As pointed out before, Grub Hub is still delivering from restaurants, and the coffee shops are still open,
Even though there are protesters, mostly carrying signs, but life is pretty much normal with people coming & going, deliveries & trash pickup happening, etc.
Not the 'Mad Max' zone the far right says it is.

In fact, mass shootings in Minneapolis, MN and Syracuse, NY. Are the top stories on city violence this morning...
Unless you *Think* someone in the Seattle "Free Zone" somehow fired the bullets that landed in MN. & NY...
Which wouldn't surprise me considering the complete impossibly of the conspiracy theories that you have supported in the past...


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> I am sure you would.


Obvious insult ignored since it simply isn't true...

I would like to see the "Cities Burned To The Ground" the far right like to claim...
It's simply information, used to formulate an appropriate response.
It would kick the threat level up, showing civilian police can't handle the situation.
But since it's a complete and total like, and it looks like police have headaches but are handling the situation...

Since I'm not a knee-jerk reactionary, accurate information is a priority.

I don't do the Russians & Chinese work for them based on a MEME/bumper sticker claim.
The Russians might be right, they might never have to for a shot, just make a few MEMES,
Let the weak minded tear the country apart internally.

And there is the Constitution to consider, what the extremists always ignore...
These are Americans, and we aren't *Supposed* to obliterate protesters, anyone we don't agree with, etc.
Make no mistake, I will defend the Constitution as the 'Higher Power', with voting when that is possible...
Anyway I can if it gets really bad.

I'm *Hoping* the 155 years of systematic sexism, racism, etc since the 'Civil' war (made it illegal in all states),
I'm *Hoping* that 155 years of hurt, pain & rage doesn't become a reckoning where the backlash doesn't have us hunting each other in the streets, atrocities committed out of rage & pain.
I've seen it first hand, more than once, and the 'Extremists' always *Think* it will go 'Their' way, but it usually doesn't...

I make no distinction between Taliban, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, KKK, NAZIs, White Supremacists, 'Boogaloo', etc.
Anyone that shows up with firearms, instead of protest signs/votes has chosen to engage the current population, and are 'Combatants'.
I'm just hoping it doesn't carry over to wives, children, entire neighborhoods/cities, etc, which it always does...

Ethnic/Religious/Political 'Cleansing' is always ugly and always goes WAY too far...
Though, Word & Deed.
If you thought it, said it, then you will be assumed to have done it in an armed insurgence, and people won't forget...
Just like the far right hasn't forgot about race or religion differences and advocate armed insurgence, it won't go well and no one is 'Safe', not from the youngest to the oldest...


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

If you make no distinction, and look at everything objectively, can you tell me why when ANTIFA holds a mostly peaceful protest, stores get looted, and something always seems to catch on fire. And when armed protesters march, no stores have been looted, and nothing has caught fire. 

I just read the news report of the shooting in Minn last night. One dead and eleven wounded, would this be a mostly peaceful protest or a alt right covert action to make the peaceful protesters look bad?

I hope the police in Minn and other Democratic strong holds stand down, and let the peaceful protesters have their way. At some point the regular law abiding citizens will decide that they have had enough of this fairy tail BS, and start stacking these peaceful protesters in the streets.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> If you make no distinction, and look at everything objectively, can you tell me why when ANTIFA holds a mostly peaceful protest, stores get looted, and something always seems to catch on fire. And when armed protesters march, no stores have been looted, and nothing has caught fire.


ANTIFA protested for months on end in several cities, I can't remember a single city being "Burned To The Ground", since it was mostly in parks and on highways,
Not a lot to loot and/or burn.
I also remember a LOT of police!

That makes me think you are reaching WAY into hyperbole yet again, taking the far right extremists view point as 'Fact'.



> I just read the news report of the shooting in Minn last night. One dead and eleven wounded, would this be a mostly peaceful protest or a alt right covert action to make the peaceful protesters look bad?


At any time did you see me with a crystal ball?
Point out where I made ANY prognostication as to who the shooter/shooters *Might* be...

I have no idea who, or why those shootings took place, and I'm not going to jump to conclusions, blame anyone or any group/political party until the investigation shows some actual proof of who they suspect.
Far right, far left, gang related, just a crazy with a firearm... 

I have no idea,* just like you don't, but I'm sure that won't stop the extremists (either side) from making wild claims... 
Idiots often speak without thinking and I won't take responsibility for them or what's said by them.*



> I hope the police in Minn and other Democratic strong holds stand down, and let the peaceful protesters have their way.


*Now there is the problem in a nutshell, the inability to recognize these are AMERICANS.*

The delusional mindset that you are any different, any 'Better', or anything 'Special' because you have different colored skin, different political views, etc.

Playing the 'Victim' here ("Us against everyone else"),
And your "Beliefs" don't cut it here,
Or any other fool idea of moral, ethical, racial, religious 'Supremacy' doesn't cut it here...

It's a question of constitutional rights and the rule of law,
And under the constitution & law you are no more or less than anyone else.
Now that everyone is on a level playing field (and I suspect that's what bother you most),

"They" have just as much right to be heard in protesting as *YOU* do.
If that hurts your ego, then your ego was lying to you.

*Protesting (Right to assemble, right of free speech) are Constitutionally covered FOR EVERYONE, not just *YOUR* chosen political party sect.*

Also, grouping ALL protesters into one big lump with mass shooters, rioters, looters, arsonists is disingenuous..
Much like saying all white men are racists, or because one white man raped a baby, all white men are baby rapists.
I've not seen a single person CONDONE looting, arson, etc,
But I've most certainly see defense of killing unarmed black men on this forum...

*If you hate the Constitution that much, by all means pick up a weapon and join an armed uprising.
You won't have to worry about constitutional protections you rant against so much...
If you are *VERY* lucky, maybe you will be taken prisoner and your captors will observe some of the rules of war, but the constitutional rights you rant against so much won't be an issue for you anymore since you are an terrorist enemy combatant and won't have those rights.*

Insurgents should be sure to take the correct 'Rebel' (white) flag with them!
Wave to it admit to both being a coward and murderer, and someone *Might* afford you mercy you didn't afford anyone else...
If they do, good luck in that black site prison for terrorists/mass murderers! 

-------------



> At some point the regular law abiding citizens will decide that they have had enough of this fairy tail BS, and start stacking these peaceful protesters in the streets.


Now, you just advocated stacking the bodies of ALL PROTESTERS in the streets.
That's a terrorist viewpoint, if not an outright terrorist threat.
I'm positive that will roll right off you, being issued entirely, but the legal implications alone should scare the crap out of anyone 'Law Abiding' or didn't fall into your very narrow, far right definition.

The second point,
*IF* the citizens are "Law Abiding" they won't have any part of limiting the constitutional rights of anyone else,
And they won't have any part of the mass murder you just promoted.

The third point,
What you just proposed is an illegal armed insurgency against peaceful protesting Americans exercising their Constitutional rights.
That makes the armed insurgency "A Clear & Present Danger" To The US & Constitution.
EXACTLY the same as if ISIS invaded and started killing 'Infidels', exactly zero difference.
(Let the drone strikes begin!)

The fourth point,
In this case of mass murder over political differences you propose,
That would be a totalitarian government take over attempt.
Exactly what 'Antifa' protests about, YOU JUST PROVED ANTIFA'S POINT!

---------------

How ironic is that!
The far right, go on a murder rampage rant exactly proves ANTIFA's point.
Anyone with the viewpoint to murder anyone that doesn't agree with you exactly is the definition of totalitarian/fascists...

And yet I'm sure you will keep digging since you are in a hole you can't get out of,
Extremists do that sort of thing...


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I believe you spelled everything correctly.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

JeepHammer said:


> Right to assemble,


You keep forgetting the word peaceful. The right to peacefully assemble is guaranteed in the Constitution. As soon as you pick up a rock or a brick and throw it through a window, loot a store, or start a fire you are a criminal. And if you are are a citizen of the United States, you are an american criminal. If the elected or hired leaders in charge of the police, won't let the police put a stop to the criminals looting and burning, then the people who own the stores, or homes, or just happen to be driving down the street have the right to defend themselves with how ever much force is necessary to stop the criminals. And by stop I mean shoot dead right there. 

You still haven't answered my question. How come every time a group of supposedly peaceful protesters assemble, there is looting and a burning? And every time a group of armed protesters assemble, there has been no looting and burning. 

You are right about one thing, in places where there has been armed violence from one group against another, it is always bad, bloody, excessive, and carried way too far.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

JeepHammer said:


> *these are AMERICANS.*


I don't care if they are Americans, or Martians. The instant one of them breaks a window, or starts a fire it goes from protest to riot. And rioters, and anyone with or supporting the rioters should be treated like dangerous criminals, and stopped, right there. If the police don't, can't or are not allowed to stop them, then the citizens have the right to do so. And since private citizens are under no obligation to arrest anyone, someone is going to get shot.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

JeepHammer said:


> ANTIFA protested for months on end in several cities, I can't remember a single city being "Burned To The Ground", since it was mostly in parks and on highways,
> Not a lot to loot and/or burn.
> I also remember a LOT of police!
> 
> ...


As usual it doesn't take you long to start telling lies about what I said. I do not and have never advocated mass murder, or an armed uprising against the government. I simply pointed out that at some point regular citizens, who feel they are not being protected by the law, or police, will do something about it. And that this may result in protesters, peaceful or otherwise getting shot.


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

muleskinner2 said:


> If you make no distinction, and look at everything objectively, can you tell me why when ANTIFA holds a mostly peaceful protest, stores get looted, and something always seems to catch on fire. And when armed protesters march, no stores have been looted, and nothing has caught fire.
> 
> I just read the news report of the shooting in Minn last night. One dead and eleven wounded, would this be a mostly peaceful protest or a alt right covert action to make the peaceful protesters look bad?
> 
> I hope the police in Minn and other Democratic strong holds stand down, and let the peaceful protesters have their way. At some point the regular law abiding citizens will decide that they have had enough of this fairy tail BS, and start stacking these peaceful protesters in the streets.


It's already past time for that....regular law abiding citizens are long suffering and slow to anger....but rest assured they've taken just about all they're gonna take....


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

muleskinner2 said:


> I don't care if they are Americans, or Martians. The instant one of them breaks a window, or starts a fire it goes from protest to riot. And rioters, and anyone with or supporting the rioters should be treated like dangerous criminals, and stopped, right there. If the police don't, can't or are not allowed to stop them, then the citizens have the right to do so. And since private citizens are under no obligation to arrest anyone, someone is going to get shot.


And those that end up getting shot due to rioting,arson etc. have nobody but themselves to blame when it happens.


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

muleskinner2 said:


> As usual it doesn't take you long to start telling lies about what I said. I do not and have never advocated mass murder, or an armed uprising against the government. I simply pointed out that at some point regular citizens, who feel they are not being protected by the law, or police, will do something about it. And that this may result in protesters, peaceful or otherwise getting shot.


It's funny, I know exactly who it is that you are replying to even after I have used the "Ignore" function for several people here...


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> It's funny, I know exactly who it is that you are replying to even after I have used the "Ignore" function for several people here...


Ignore is a handy little feature, it can sure clean up a thread.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yep.
There is one expert I always get a hoot from though.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> It's already past time for that....regular law abiding citizens are long suffering and slow to anger....but rest assured they've taken just about all they're gonna take....


Here a little ole' lady that had enough...
https://www.foxnews.com/us/nashvill...ins-why-she-shot-alleged-shoplifter-im-fed-up


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

annnnddd, looks like another hate crime. Ooops, checked the wrong boxes.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-city-man-punches-woman-subway


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

*City of Chicago-*
Shot & Killed: *50*
Shot & Wounded: *311*
Total Shot: *361*
Total Homicides: *54

Oh sorry, that isn't year to date 2020, that is June to date. 
21 days folks.

Which black lives matter?

*


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Which black lives matter?


The ones carrying the agenda around

They are being used


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

*2016 in New York City*

136,000+ abortion murders committed on black babies

*Which Black Lives Matter?*


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Which Black Lives Matter?


Certainly not those. Those are thrown in the trash. Their only value might be as body parts.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Both BLM and the NAACP opposed more charter schools for black Americans in 2016.

One more time from you people in the upper mezzanine.
Which black lives matter?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Which black lives matter


Not the ones who get an education and become self reliant and independent.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yep, and instead of being referred to as brother, they are now labeled an Uncle or House Man.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

BTW, the Lenin statue in Seattle still stands strong and upright.
After the Christopher Columbus statue assaulted that peaceful protestor and cracked his skull, they probably figured Lenin was too tall and dangerous to try and topple.
Sure.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

GTX63 said:


> annnnddd, looks like another hate crime. Ooops, checked the wrong boxes.
> https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-city-man-punches-woman-subway


Do you suppose these men feel empowered because of the lawlessness of these peaceful BLM protests. Is it because they feel like they have the police on the ropes? That the mayors, and governors of these democrat controlled, soon to be third world dung heaps, are just standing by and allowing this to happen? When they have finally de-funded the police, I think they are going to get a little more democracy than they bargained for. 

So much to ponder, so little time.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

HDRider said:


> The ones carrying the agenda around
> 
> They are being used


Yes, but they seem to like it.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I think it happens as much as it used to.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> You keep forgetting the word peaceful. The right to peacefully assemble is guaranteed in the Constitution. As soon as you pick up a rock or a brick and throw it through a window, loot a store, or start a fire you are a criminal. And if you are are a citizen of the United States, you are an american criminal. If the elected or hired leaders in charge of the police, won't let the police put a stop to the criminals looting and burning, then the people who own the stores, or homes, or just happen to be driving down the street have the right to defend themselves with how ever much force is necessary to stop the criminals. And by stop I mean shoot dead right there.
> 
> You still haven't answered my question. How come every time a group of supposedly peaceful protesters assemble, there is looting and a burning? And every time a group of armed protesters assemble, there has been no looting and burning.
> 
> You are right about one thing, in places where there has been armed violence from one group against another, it is always bad, bloody, excessive, and carried way too far.


And there you have it, continue to dig...

Appropriate response.
Protesters are just that. Choose to commit a criminal act, you move into criminal category.
The inability to see the difference is yours, not mine.

Opening fire, "Stacking Bodies" is mass murder, and there is no excuse you can come up with to get around the fact you are supporting/encouraging mass murder.

And I will point out the far right have been the church shooters, driving cars into protesters, etc.
While you can rant on and on about how 'Right' you are,
You are expounding exactly the same stuff those church shooters and other mass murderers did...

The rest of the rant is entirely the same old garbage, 
Totalitarian/Fascists crap, if we don't accept exactly the same dogma as you, we get bullets.
If we do anything that you don't approve of, we get bullets.
If you are in a bad mood, we get bullets.
Kids spill milk, we get bullets.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> I don't care if they are Americans, or Martians. The instant one of them breaks a window, or starts a fire it goes from protest to riot. And rioters, and anyone with or supporting the rioters should be treated like dangerous criminals, and stopped, right there. If the police don't, can't or are not allowed to stop them, then the citizens have the right to do so. And since private citizens are under no obligation to arrest anyone, someone is going to get shot.


Shoot the puppies for piddling in the house?
Shoot the kids for spilling milk?

I think you have a VERY skewed view of things...
Let's hope you just rant on the internet and don't actually put your "Beliefs" into action, we don't need anymore daycare or church shootings.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> Shoot the puppies for piddling in the house?
> Shoot the kids for spilling milk?
> 
> I think you have a VERY skewed view of things...
> Let's hope you just rant on the internet and don't actually put your "Beliefs" into action, we don't need anymore daycare or church shootings.


It appears that your reading comprehension skills are on par with your scientific comprehension skills. Carry on.


----------



## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Here a little ole' lady that had enough...
> https://www.foxnews.com/us/nashvill...ins-why-she-shot-alleged-shoplifter-im-fed-up


I think this comment fits well..

"This is what happens when law and order fail to protect people and their property. They start protecting themselves."


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

JeepHammer said:


> And there you have it, continue to dig...
> 
> Appropriate response.
> Protesters are just that. Choose to commit a criminal act, you move into criminal category.
> ...


Still can't bring yourself to use the word peaceful.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> Shoot the puppies for piddling in the house?
> Shoot the kids for spilling milk?
> 
> I think you have a VERY skewed view of things...
> Let's hope you just rant on the internet and don't actually put your "Beliefs" into action, we don't need anymore daycare or church shootings.


Yeah, um, pretty sure you made some chunky threats against some folks here.
I believe enough members are still around here that remember that.
I'm pretty sure most of yours have been rants too.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)




----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

JeepHammer said:


> And there you have it, continue to dig...
> 
> Appropriate response.
> Protesters are just that. Choose to commit a criminal act, you move into criminal category.
> ...


Do you wright this stuff yourself, or do you have a team of little socialists elves working for you? Puppies, kids, and bullets. You, or should I say your team, have quite the imagination.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Just pointing out *You* propose to murder protesters simply because they don't agree with you.

The rule of law is there to responses controlled, proportionate to the crime.
You want to murder every one because some throw rocks or whatever.
You stated it's appropriate for an armed civilian response to massacre anyone you don't agree with.

And here is a big surprise for you, you are a Socalist.
You have a water utility, that's socalism.
You have electricity, that's socalism.
If our have sewer or garbage service, that's socalism.
If you have a maintained road, that's socalism.
If you vote, that's socalism.
If you have a paying job, that's socalism.
If you went to any public school, that's socalism.
The rule of law is socalism.

These are all examples of social contracts, and no society works without socialism.
We have to work together to make advancements.

I know this is lost on you, humans are social primates, but I'm sure you have other ideas...


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Reason #14 why your school teachers should have been fired.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Reason #14 why your school teachers should have been fired.


I think there should be an investigation into the whole school system.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

HDRider said:


> I think there should be an investigation into the whole school system.


No kidding, it produces people that drink bleach, wear bed sheets in public, wave 'Rebel' flags, etc.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

JeepHammer said:


> No kidding, it produces people that drink bleach, wear bed sheets in public, wave 'Rebel' flags, etc.


Some school systems have produced some real wing nuts


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> No kidding, it produces people that drink bleach, wear bed sheets in public, wave 'Rebel' flags, etc.


You should add and "Then get elected as the Democratic Gov of VA."


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> No kidding, it produces people that drink bleach, wear bed sheets in public, wave 'Rebel' flags, etc.


Or claim to see Trump nuking clouds to make it rain on tv, misquote history books, the rotation of the earth, the bible, current events, other posters, insult women and make threats. Yeah, some schools should have been boarded long ago.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Hiro said:


> It appears that your reading comprehension skills are on par with your scientific comprehension skills.


I don't think he really reads anything, including his own posts.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

A dictaphone in one hand and Siri in the other in a cool basement was the dream of Leo Tolstoy.


----------



## rohitrand (Jun 23, 2020)

JeepHammer said:


> Just pointing out *You* propose to murder protesters simply because they don't agree with you.
> 
> The rule of law is there to responses controlled, proportionate to the crime.
> You want to murder every one because some throw rocks or whatever.
> ...


right


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

People can protest all they want, as long as it is peaceful and LEGAL! Throw your protesting self on my car and try to illegally detain me or break a window in my house or throw a brick at me and you have broken the law. I am legally allowed to protect myself and I will do what I feel is necessary.

I hope Granny has a go fund me page. She really needs to spend some time learning how to handle a firearm.

There is a gated community near where Mom lives. Antifa tried to get in there to protest but were turned away. So antifa thugs broke in the back entrance, cut fences, destroyed property, trashed the area and had to be run off by police. Sure made their point about what they stand for in that instance.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

JeepHammer said:


> Just pointing out *You* propose to murder protesters simply because they don't agree with you.
> 
> The rule of law is there to responses controlled, proportionate to the crime.
> You want to murder every one because some throw rocks or whatever.
> ...


Once again telling lies is your go-to response to anything you don't agree with. I stated that it's appropriate for an armed citizen to respond to burning, looting, and assault with deadly force. This would be self defense, not murder. Burning, looting and assaulting people is not a peaceful protest. A difference of opinion or not agreeing with someone has nothing to do with your response, if they are burning, looting, or assaulting you.

My utilities, electric, and garbage, are paid to private companies with which I have a private contract, and for which I pay in cash. If I don't pay, they can terminate the service. The public roads, and schools in my area are paid for with taxes, and if I don't pay my taxes they will take my wages, and property. Nothing social about it.

The one and only thing you didn't lie about is that humans are social primates. And laws were invented to protect humans from the primates, who burn, loot, and assault people. The law allows a person to use as much force as is necessary, including deadly force, to protect oneself. 

Please try to keep up, explaining the same things over and over is becoming tedious.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> Once again telling lies is your go-to response to anything you don't agree with. I stated that it's appropriate for an armed citizen to respond to burning, looting, and assault with deadly force. This would be self defense, not murder. Burning, looting and assaulting people is not a peaceful protest. A difference of opinion or not agreeing with someone has nothing to do with your response, if they are burning, looting, or assaulting you.
> 
> My utilities, electric, and garbage, are paid to private companies with which I have a private contract, and for which I pay in cash. If I don't pay, they can terminate the service. The public roads, and schools in my area are paid for with taxes, and if I don't pay my taxes they will take my wages, and property. Nothing social about it.
> 
> ...


Continue to dig...

Protesters have a constitutional right to do exactly that.

There are civilian institutions (police, courts, prison systems) for dealing with AMERICAN CITIZENS that commit criminal acts.
To take the action contrary to the law makes YOU a criminal.

Even to suggest "Stacking Bodies Up In The Streets" is a criminal act,
To be precise, it's terroristic threatening and inciting/soiciting murder,
Should someone actually take up your prompt, then you would be conspiracy to commit murder.

NO ONE can 'make' you differentiate between PEOPLE that PROTEST, (legal, constitutionally protected),
And PEOPLE that commit criminal actions,

That problem is yours, and yours alone...

No one can shoot the neighbor because his leaves blew into your yard, or he drove across part of your yard,
The LAW is clear, the punishment has to fit the crime, and disproportionate response is a crime in itself.
See police officer murdering an unarmed, handcuffed victim for an _ALLEDGED_ crime of passing a bad $20 bill, and being charged with murder.

Another example is someone here influenced by your call to commit mass murder showing up to kill you.
That is also a criminal act, WAY outside the established legal system laid down in the Constitution.
Now, if law enforcement showed up to arrest you for YOUR actions, and they just decided to murder you, that also would be criminal action, and I would expect them to be charged with murder.

Again, since you apparently don't understand approprated response, this won't make sense to you...

Not all protesters are commiting crimes,
And the protesters can't be murdered because of the actions of criminals.
To suggest murdering protesters (or criminals) without due legal process is a criminal act in itself, and you simply refuse to acknowledge that fact.
This is the text book definition of 'Extremist' and should never go unchallenged...

For whatever reason, *YOU* believe you are above the law,
And *YOU* believe *YOU* have some 'Right' to decide who lives & who dies.
*YOU* advocate the mass murder of American Citizens simply because they have a different viewpoint than *YOU*.
Where exactly does *YOUR* power to decide who lives or dies stop?
Muslims, Jews, Anyone with brown skin, Women, senior citizens, the handicapped?
Where exactly do *YOU* draw the line?

More importantly, when the people that do your murdering (since you didn't say *YOU* directly would get your hands bloody) 
And since those people would have to be homicidal maniacs,
Where do those people draw the line? 
Will *YOU* be 'Right' enough?

That's why we have rule of law, so one irritatingly dense cheer leader make up their own rules and commit mass murder in whatever direction they might choose...
There is a law, it applies to everyone equally, and there is punishment if broken.
No one person gets to decide who lives or dies...


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

> My utilities, electric, and garbage, are paid to private companies with which I have a private contract, and for which I pay in cash. If I don't pay, they can terminate the service. The public roads, and schools in my area are paid for with taxes, and if I don't pay my taxes they will take my wages, and property. Nothing social about it.


More things you don't understand....

*ALL AGREEMENTS ARE SOCIAL CONTRACTS.*
They agree to provide a service, you agree to pay for their time & equipment.
In places where services are mandated (water, sewer, trash collection, etc) either a governmental section does the work on tax money, or they contract with semi-private contractors...
There is a reason there is a utilities commission (government over-watch) to make sure the contractors are providing the services, and the price is reasonable, not a monopoly with excessive fees.

WAY before 'Laws', 
What allowed society to develop, is the MOST BASIC of social contracts,
You don't murder me... I don't murder you.
You don't take what I have... I don't take what you have.
I don't beat a woman to death, feed her, I get offspring.
*WE* SOCIALLY AGREE to these terms, then *WE* can join forces and bring in bigger game to feed both sides...

*YOU* enter into social contracts with suppliers, so you can sell to customers.
CIVIL LAWS simply lay down terms for when SOCIAL contracts are broken or have disputes, so some knee-jerk extremists doesn't show up at your home and kill you in front of your family...

Should some knee-jerk extremist show up to kill you, the POLICE will either intervene, or investigate/arrest/punish the person that tried to kill/killed you.

The most basic social agreement, and law we have is being able to protect your life.
The reason is knee-jerk extremists that won't keep even the most basic social contracts...
*THEY* "Believe" they are "Entitled" to whatever they can get away with.
It's a particular mental disorder running from Narcissistic to Sociopathic personalities, learned traits...
When you don't suffered from narcissism or psychopathy you KNOW stealing, lying, murder are fundamentally wrong and refuse to do those actions.
If someone doesn't understand, and can't admit that, they are sociopaths or psychopaths and best avoided...



> The one and only thing you didn't lie about is that humans are social primates. And laws were invented to protect humans from the primates, who burn, loot, and assault people...


You mean the primates that don't understand the law and advocate mass murder?
If so, then I agree, you should stand trial for advocating mass murder under terroristic threatening laws.
Notice I didn't say anyone should show up and just murder you... Because that's how the law is supposed to work...


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> Once again telling lies is your go-to response to anything you don't agree with.


What I said was advocating "Law abiding citizens to stack bodies up in the streets" (more or less) is illegal outright and none too bright to put in print for the entire world to see.
Besides illegal, it's advocating mass murder which I'm sure *YOU* wouldn't want happening at *YOUR* house/neighborhood.

1. "Law Abiding Citizens" don't "Stack Bodies In The Street".
To shoot even a criminal like a looter, that's NOT A DIRECT THREAT is murder.
That would mean, under the law and by definition, that person is no longer a "Law Abiding Citizen".

2. What you suggest is ARMED INSURRECTION under the current laws.
That would also make those people NOT "Law Abiding Citizens".
It actually puts them outside of constitutional protections as they are now 'Enemy Combatants' to the US.

3. Should anyone decide to take your "Advice", you are a criminally conspiring to commit murder, before the fact, and that makes *YOU* just as legally complicit as anyone that committed the murders.
And I should have to point out that just suggesting murder/armed insurrection is against the law under state laws for terroristic threatening, and under federal law for promoting terrorism.

4. The inability to differentiate between protesters (covered as a constitutional right) have every right to do exactly what they are doing,
And the looters, arsonists, etc are still Americans and have a constitutional right to due legal process.

As I've stated time & time again, I defend no criminal action,
From looting, arson, to terroristic threats...
And I won't advocate going to hunting for someone to kill so I can "Stack Bodies In The Streets", which again, is illegal.

Since *I* am a "Law Abiding Citizen" I simply refuse to participate in any actions contrary to current laws,
And it's a given I'm not going to rally to the call of a knee-jerk reactionary extremists to go commit murder...
That KEEPS me a "Law Abiding Citizen".

I know I wouldn't like prison, so even if I we're confronted by someone intent on criminal action, I would stay within the current laws.



> I stated that it's appropriate for an armed citizen to respond to burning, looting, and assault with deadly force.


That's NOT what you wrote, or intended.
Self defense has limits, and "Stacking Bodies In The Streets" (mass murder) most certainly isn't covered under 'Self Defense".
Try to squirm out of it all you want, but we both know you inserted your foot into your mouth...

Depending on where you live, you may very well have a "Duty To Retreat",
Even if you have a "Stand Your Ground" law.
Shooting someone over someone else's property (damage/loss) for example since you don't have a legal right to that property or it's defense.

Shooting someone unarmed and fleeing is murder in all states, no matter if they just looted or not simply because they aren't a threat to you running away from you.
See current Atlanta police officer incident... And as a private citizen, you aren't even covered under the same rules police are...

I have no issue with protesters,
I have a BIG issue with police firing rubber bullets, tear gas canisters & flash bangs at the heads of protesters since they are both deliberately injuring and infringing on their Constitutional Rights.

I have no issue with police arresting (not murdering) criminal suspects.
I have a BIG issue with vigilantes, particularly in a mob (see rioters or what you were promoting).
No legal basis what so ever for vigilantes (or rioters), but im not law enforcement so unless directly threatened with bodily harm or death I have no legal basis to go try and stop said groups, and neither do you.
I have no legal basis to go artificially inject myself into that mess, again, neither do you.
Doing so would negate any 'Self Defense' claim I had, and I should fully expect to be charged with murder...

Now, grab your shovel and keep digging...


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Your struggling with comprehension and knowing when to stop after a sentence this morning so I'll help you out.
Don't worry about paypal, this one is my gift to you.
Get a pencil or use your cut and paste feature.
A protestor can become a rioter.
A rioter cannot become a protestor.
When the former condones, allows and declines to make, in their power, any attempt to stop the latter, they are no different than them.
A man who stands by while another man or group rapes a woman at a party, they are guilty.
Rob a liquor store and your pal murders the clerk, oopsie on you too.
Indiana isn't known as a limpwristed don't hurt me state even being hooked next to Illinois as they are, so you can project all your nonsense from the safety of your commode and laptop. They won't be marching across your turnips and corn and lighting up your tool shed.
A protestor is standing up for what is right and for justice. Ignoring harm and injury and allowing mayhem while they look as creates culpability.
That's a sour pill for you to chew on, but truth is not always sweet.

Once again for retention-
A protestor can become a rioter.
A rioter cannot become a protestor.
Harm to anyone's person or property or their loved ones is wrong, no matter what the cause.
Pop quiz so don't lose your pencil.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

JeepHammer said:


> To shoot even a criminal like a looter, that's NOT A DIRECT THREAT is murder.


In the United States, where I live you may use deadly force if: You or (another person) is at risk of great bodily harm or death. And where I live there are times when you can shoot without warning. This applies to police and a private citizen. You my shoot without warning to prevent a violent robbery, arson, rape, or attempted murder. That would be looting, burning, and assault like throwing bricks, or hitting people with a skate board.

You can not hunt someone down after they have fled the scene. A citizen can make an arrest, although they are not required to do so, as an police officer is. A citizen may make an arrest if they witness, a violent crime, or a felony such as arson, assault, rape, or murder. And like an officer they may use as much force as is necessary to affect the arrest, including the threat of and use of deadly force. Where I live no one has "a duty to retreat". 

Stacking bodies is a figure of speech, although one or two bodies might be considered a small pile. Peaceful protesters are protected by the law. Violent rioters are subject to the law. And part of that law allows citizens to protect themselves and others, during a home invasion, car jacking, being attacked by a mob qualifies as threat of great bodily harm or death. 

It all boils down to context. I am willing to use force to defend myself, and you are trying to paint anyone who uses force as a criminal. 

****

A hunter is sitting on a stump overlooking a corn field. Two hundred yards away is a county road. The hunter sees a state trooper make a traffic stop on the county road. As the officer is walking up to the car he just stopped, the driver jumps out, rushes the officer knocks him down and begins to beat him with his fists. Through his scope the hunter sees that the officer is being attacked, the attacker is not armed, just using his fists. 

The hunter is not in danger, the attacker is not a threat to him. The hunter takes careful aim, and shoots the attacker in the head killing him instantly. 

Did the hunter just commit murder, or did he lawfully use deadly force to protect another? 

****

A home owner hears a noise outside his house at 2;00 am. Arming himself with a shotgun he investigates, and observes a adult male crawling into his teenage daughters bedroom window. He takes aim and shoots the man in the back of the head. Did he just commit murder, or did he lawfully use deadly force to protect another?

****

In the case of the hunter. After hearing all of the testimony, from the trooper, and the hunter, the Grand Jury ruled that the hunter was justified in using deadly force.

In the case of the home owner. After hearing all of the testimony from the homeowner, and the daughter. The Grand Jury ruled that the homeowner should be held over for trial for second degree murder. The daughter testified that she had invited her boyfriend over. The home owner did not know this, and thought he was protecting his daughter. 

The line is often fuzzy, and what appears to be crystal clear in the heat of the moment, may not be the case at all. In one jurisdiction a person shooting a home invader, or a rioter may be considered justified. In another jurisdiction a person acting under the exact same set of circumstances may be found guilty of murder. 

Your opinion and possible actions are based upon your knowledge of the law where you live. My opinion and possible actions are based upon my knowledge of the law where I live.

Unlike you I do not have the ability to read minds, or to determine another persons intent. So I will have to struggle along as best I can.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> In the United States, where I live you may use deadly force if: You or (another person) is at risk of great bodily harm or death. And where I live there are times when you can shoot without warning. This applies to police and a private citizen. You my shoot without warning to prevent a violent robbery, arson, rape, or attempted murder. That would be looting, burning, and assault like throwing bricks, or hitting people with a skate board.
> 
> You can not hunt someone down after they have fled the scene. A citizen can make an arrest, although they are not required to do so, as an police officer is. A citizen may make an arrest if they witness, a violent crime, or a felony such as arson, assault, rape, or murder. And like an officer they may use as much force as is necessary to affect the arrest, including the threat of and use of deadly force. Where I live no one has "a duty to retreat".
> 
> ...


Rational, thought out and issues addressed.
Laws do vary from state to state, from stand your ground to duty to retreat, etc.


****



> A hunter is sitting on a stump overlooking a corn field. Two hundred yards away is a county road. The hunter sees a state trooper make a traffic stop on the county road. As the officer is walking up to the car he just stopped, the driver jumps out, rushes the officer knocks him down and begins to beat him with his fists. Through his scope the hunter sees that the officer is being attacked, the attacker is not armed, just using his fists.
> 
> The hunter is not in danger, the attacker is not a threat to him. The hunter takes careful aim, and shoots the attacker in the head killing him instantly.
> 
> Did the hunter just commit murder, or did he lawfully use deadly force to protect another?


Can't tell you, don't know the state laws where this hypothetical happens.

How about NOT a hypothetical,
Me & my wife turned a corner in Daytona, Fl. hotel parking structure where two guys were trying to take a side arm from a police officer.
I wasn't armed, but I jumped on the attackers, putting one out of the fight almost immedately,
The second found my wife pointing her pistol at his face and finally took his hands off the officer/pistol.

Never fired a shot.

****



> A home owner hears a noise outside his house at 2;00 am. Arming himself with a shotgun he investigates, and observes a adult male crawling into his teenage daughters bedroom window. He takes aim and shoots the man in the back of the head. Did he just commit murder, or did he lawfully use deadly force to protect another?


Again, can't address as a hypothetical,
My question would be did he just shoot the girls boyfriend?

****



> In the case of the hunter. After hearing all of the testimony, from the trooper, and the hunter, the Grand Jury ruled that the hunter was justified in using deadly force.


If that's true, then the hunter went through due process, the ACTUAL experts delegated or elected to investigate did their jobs, found sufficient EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCES to exonerate the hunter, and the legal system is done with him.

The hunter wasn't out there to kill humans and "Pile Bodies In The Streets"...
I can see the difference.
What your story doesn't address is carrying a string of bodies around your neck for the rest of your life, and memory, conscience is a powerful thing, ask anyone with PTSD.



> In the case of the home owner. After hearing all of the testimony from the homeowner, and the daughter. The Grand Jury ruled that the homeowner should be held over for trial for second degree murder. The daughter testified that she had invited her boyfriend over. The home owner did not know this, and thought he was protecting his daughter.


So that guy wound up standing trial, with all the expense, etc?
AND had to carry that death around on his conscience...



> The line is often fuzzy, and what appears to be crystal clear in the heat of the moment, may not be the case at all. In one jurisdiction a person shooting a home invader, or a rioter may be considered justified. In another jurisdiction a person acting under the exact same set of circumstances may be found guilty of murder.


That would be the reason for "Duty To Retreat", to make crystal clear the aggressor's intentions are crystal clear.

Locally, a woman and her child were in their home when a guy broke in.
She took the child into a bedroom and locked the door, the guy broke in the door,
She retreated to a closet/crawl space and he broke into that.
She shot him 5 times, a pretty good group under the circumstances...

She had to give testimony at a corners inquest where she was acquitted of all wrong doing.
Still screwed her up pretty good, as it does anyone that has to defend their lives by taking another that not a sociopath...

I'm reminded of the guy in a residential neighborhood that shot a highschool foreign exchange student on his front,
When questioned, he stated simply because he could, the law provided for shooting anyone on your property after dark.
No mention of threat, just 'wanted' to shoot someone and the law covered him.
.
The law didn't cover him under federal civil rights (criminal) or the resulting wrongful death lawsuit.
$25.5 million award to the family of the kid, 10 years in federal prison, all because he 'wanted' to kill someone and shot a highschool kid trick-or-treating for the first time since Japan doesn't have that custom.
Now, since wanting to cold blooded kill someone falls squarely into the sociopath definition I'm sure it doesn't bother him much,
But I'm equally sure he didn't sleep too well in prison for 10 years, and paying off the $25.5 million may cause a few sleepless nights...



> Your opinion and possible actions are based upon your knowledge of the law where you live. My opinion and possible actions are based upon my knowledge of the law where I live.


Drop the shovel, you were doing so good! 

Calm, rational, reasonable, well expressed.
I assume (benefit of a doubt given) factual examples, after action analysis...

I live in what's now (wasn't always) a stand your ground state.
I taught classes that were once required for a carry permit, and we had actual lawyers come in and educate us/class on what to expect should you ever have to discharge the firearm as a weapon, up to and including being charged with homicide, you being liable for every bullet, including strays, etc.

The legal opinion is ALWAYS allow anyone that's not a direct threat go.
100% of the time, if for no other reason than the expense of a trial, (which will start around $150,000 and go up from there).
Most insurance liability policies don't cover 'Willful Acts', like shooting someone.



> Unlike you I do not have the ability to read minds, or to determine another persons intent. So I will have to struggle along as best I can.


And there is the hyperbole, bluster and general entitled rant crap again...

We both know I don't have a crystal ball and I don't know anyone's future,
Having written time & time again, I don't know what's in anyone's mind, just what they write here...

There is a reason for you having a brain, use it.
There is a reason for the rule of law, use an EDUCATED understanding of the situation, and take best action.

I'm dumb enough to fling myself, unarmed, into a fight where firearms are involved.
I proved full well I don't always think things out...
My wife, on the other hand, dug out her own handgun, and stopped the threat without firing a shot...
We don't have to go over 'Shoot or Don't Shoot' since she never fired a shot, which was the best possible outcome for all concerned.

*IF* I would have been armed, since I wasn't too long out of 14 years of combat deployments, I would have most probably shot one or both attackers without warning...
And since you can't control what others do, the police officer could have been shot in the process, it's not like you can predict where someone being kicked in the face is going to get thrown...

When I see something as short sighted as "Stacking Bodies In The Streets" I can't help but thing someone wants a war lord/ feudal system, like in Somalia, Bosnia, etc., Or anywhere ISIS has been, where bodies were actually stacked in the streets...
*IF* that's what you want, you are just one step away from doing it since you THOUGHT it,
You SAID it,
The next step is DOING it.
Thought, word & deed.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

The thing about due process is, when they are coming through the door, through the window, or down the street setting fires, you very seldom have a judge and jury standing around waiting to hear the case. I have always followed due process when I could, and when I couldn't I did what I had to do to survive. As a peace officer I only had to use deadly force once. As a private citizen I have never had to use deadly force, in the United States.


As for remorse, or PTSD no sign of it so far, never a missed nights sleep, or a second guess. Self defense isn't murder, so I sleep like a baby. Being willing to use deadly force, and wanting to use deadly force, are two very different things.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> The thing about due process is, when they are coming through the door, through the window, or down the street setting fires, you very seldom have a judge and jury standing around waiting to hear the case. I have always followed due process when I could, and when I couldn't I did what I had to do to survive. As a peace officer I only had to use deadly force once. As a private citizen I have never had to use deadly force, in the United States.


Again, the far end of extremism and failing to differentiate between protesters and criminal actions...
And failing to differentiate between crimes of property and personal attacks.

Exactly ZERO PEOPLE have earned a death sentence, judged and delivered by you and you alone for throwing rocks, stealing pumpkins, or molesting the shrubs in a protest.
What they disserve, and the law provides for, is be arrested and facing an ACTUAL JUDGE, with all constitutional rights observed.



> As for remorse, or PTSD no sign of it so far, never a missed nights sleep, or a second guess. Self defense isn't murder, so I sleep like a baby. Being willing to use deadly force, and wanting to use deadly force, are two very different things.


Again, extremist hyperbole.

I spent 16 years in the Marines, deployed to every crap hole in the world, and I don't know a single service member that participated in combat that doesn't have second thoughts, remorse, and wonder if there was a better way...
The seer shock of seeing so many dead & wounded, the pain & suffering, the injustice of it all is what haunts even non-combatants that never left the wire.

Any psychology book will tell you that the completely innocent, and psychopaths sleep soundly,
Everyone else has fears, second thoughts, etc because they examine their lives, subconsciously during sleep if not in the daylight waking hours.

Empathy is what makes us fully human, and either you are fully human with a conscience or you aren't...

So, are you completely innocent, never did ANYTHING you second guessed because I'm pretty sure you aren't a completely innocent child...
According to religion fork lore, there has been exactly ONE (1) perfect human and he had a conscience, empathy, died about 2,020 years ago and has a religion named after him.

As I recall, he preached peace, forgiveness, understanding, charity for the poor, supporting the downtrodden, and lead a lot of protests...
So many protests in fact, that he was executed for his message, just another "Body Stacked In The Streets"...

I wonder what he would think if he saw his "Followers" preaching hate, murder, segregation, oppression, divisionism, stockpiling guns hoping for a bloody confrontation...?

Not that I practice any given religion, or believe '_That Guy_' ever actually existed,
But the message is clear enough, and about 2 billion 'Followers' seem to give at least lip service to 'Believing' it's true...


----------



## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

JeepHammer said:


> Not that I practice any given religion, or believe '_That Guy_' ever actually existed,
> But the message is clear enough, and about 2 billion 'Followers' seem to give at least lip service to 'Believing' it's true...


You are free to believe as you will regarding the divinity of the personage in question, but His friends, enemies, and the Roman government all agree that he existed.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

IndyDave said:


> You are free to believe as you will regarding the divinity of the personage in question, but His friends, enemies, and the Roman government all agree that he existed.


Unlike the current environment of being pc or being canceled, looted, assaulted, burned, shamed, fired, he is free to believe or not, as he chooses. There is just a little irony in that.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Unlike the current environment of being pc or being canceled, looted, assaulted, burned, shamed, fired, he is free to believe or not, as he chooses. *There is just a little irony in that.*


A little?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yeah, I try to underestimate one's ability to be inane.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> inane.


and insane


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

IndyDave said:


> You are free to believe as you will regarding the divinity of the personage in question, but His friends, enemies, and the Roman government all agree that he existed.


Your choice, I have no say in anyone's religious choice.

The only time your religion choice becomes an issue with me is when it infringes on my (or someone else's) rights.

I just wish more 'Christians' practiced what's in the Bible, 
True or not, it's a mostly good moral/ethical code.
I don't agree with murdering people because they mix fabrics, or trim the 4 corners of their beards (Leviticus),
But not many people doing that today, so I'm good with it.

Not a religious conversation anyway...


----------

