# Introducing Puppy to herd and existing LGD



## 24to1 (Apr 2, 2014)

I have a 1 year old ASD cross and am acquiring a 8 week old GP this upcoming weekend. Together they will watch over my flock of Katahdins. 

I have a large kennel set up in the pasture and plan on putting a large dog crate wrapped in plastic (keep the rain out) to keep the puppy in while he becomes familiar with the sheep and the other dog.

I will leash walk the puppy around the pasture each day so he is with me and the other animals and I can quell any "agitations" that may arise...

He will be fed and bed in the kennel.

The 1 year old ASD cross has a bad habit of nipping at the lambs ears and hocks. I am working to break him of this but sure dont want him doing the same to the puppy. I understand he is only a year old and am trying to be patient with him.

I plan on releasing the puppy into the flock when he is of the size and nature that I dont think he will be harmed by, or harm, the other animals.

At least thats the plan!

Am I approaching this correctly? Feel free to to shoot holes in the plan or offer additional advice here. I want to do the right thing for the dogs and the sheep with as little impact to either as possible if I can.

TIA

Ron


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

It is generally recommended that large breed puppies stay with their mother until _at least _10 weeks old. Many breeders keep them 12 or even 16 weeks. See if the puppy can stay longer with the litter, especially given that you expect to make an outside dog of him. You will have fewer problems if he can stay longer with Mum and mates.

What is usually done to acclimate the puppy to livestock is to have a room for the puppy in a real building. You can do this with a barn, but a lean-to as well. A room is set up that the livestock can&#8217;t get into, even when they are in the building. From this room is an opening that is large enough for the puppy, but too small for the livestock to fit through. The room acts as a crate in that the puppy will realize he is safe in there.

The room opens up to a pen where a few sheep are. They should be calm sheep that won&#8217;t hurt the puppy. You let the puppy with the sheep when you can supervise. So, in the morning you leash the puppy and walk him around for a bit, then feed him, then let him rest a bit, then walk him around. While walking him around you are training him how close to stay to you (start with a ten foot leash for a week, then move to a 20&#8217; leash), to come to your heel (give a little treat when he arrives at the heel); to move in your direction (pat your leg as you change directions); to sit on cue (use a treat). You can even train him to hand signals to go right or left. the idea is to train him for practical things while training him for boundary.

So, after his walk he&#8217;ll want to rest. While he is resting in his room you can move a few sheep into the pen. When you have another ten minutes you let the puppy into the pen to investigate and be investigated. You can play it by ear as to how long the growing puppy and the sheep can be together.

You have two entirely different dogs. One is a herding dog that is meant to work _with _a shepherd and should not be with the herd unless he is supposed to be herding them. It is natural and hard wired for the ASD to nip at the sheep and other animals. The other breed is meant to live with the sheep and protect them from predators, including your ASD. This means your GP may not protect the heard from your older dog. He may even allow loose dogs into the herd. You want to watch that.

The younger a puppy is, the more he needs someone to watch over him. This is why they bond to us/humans, because we replace their mother. In your case, you are expecting your ASD to become uncle to the puppy. As the uncle, the dog (really still a puppy) will play with the GP and teach him proper doggie manners. He will fake attack the puppy to teach him how to approach another dog with respect. He will teach the puppy to stand still during greeting sniffing, etc. You are expecting too much from your ASD at this age. I repeat, all will be better if the puppy stays longer with his mum.

At week 8 a puppy is learning bite inhibition, which means he is biting everyone. The puppies teach each other that biting hurts and nobody will play with you if you bite too hard. Your puppy will be learning bite inhibition on your lambs. Keeping them apart won&#8217;t help because he will still have nobody to teach him bite inhibition. Obviously, this is a greater problem with other (more bitty) breeds, but can be a problem with your pup.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Hello 24to1. You're getting some great information from Maura...as usual with that lady. 

I don't think it too much to emphasize the differences in your two dogs. One being an adolescent and the other such a baby. One a herding dog and the other an LGD, which means the LGD is for protecting what it thinks is harming its guards...such as your other dog's herding them. Thus, you already having a confusing scenario for that pup. 

The suggestions I would make are:
1. Leave that baby with its sybllings until it is about 3 months old
2. Teach your herding dog it is not to be in with your sheep without your being there to make sure it has been commanded to herd them and is not just playing with them


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

24to1 said:


> I have a large kennel set up in the pasture and plan on putting a large dog crate wrapped in plastic (keep the rain out) to keep the puppy in while he becomes familiar with the sheep and the other dog.


Make sure he's getting plenty of air flow. I'd just lay something on top and leave the sides open so he doesn't overheat.


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## 24to1 (Apr 2, 2014)

Thank You for your responses.

All of the advice I have to try and apply to my given situation. I work during the days and it would be difficult to follow the introduction plan as described, but, there are things I could do to implement them as best as I can. In addition I do not have a barn but do have a divided off lowing shed that with a little work could be converted to use.

A little backstory: I originally had a donkey in with the sheep but lost 2 to coyotes with him in with the herd last spring. I replaced him with 2 ASDs. One of the ASD mixes was entirely too rough with the birthing mothers this year and I was forced to get rid of him. BTW the 2 ASD mixes were given to me, for free, about the middle of last year.

This led me to just suck it up and get a GP puppy that I am hoping, along with the ASD, will be the cure for my ails.

I can contact the breeder and see if he can hold the puppy for a while. The lambs are now big enough that the ASD no longer messes with them and to my knowledge has NEVER messed with the older sheep. So that may be behind me until next lambing season.

Im concerned about the quandary I am creating for the GP. I really believe the GP is the final answer for protecting the herd but don't want him learning herding techniques or what I consider "bad habits" from the ASD. At the same time, I don't believe I want to, nor can I, get rid of the ASD until the GP is old enough to protect the herd. Especially since its springtime and the coyotes will be out in full force.

Im trying to do whats best for all animals concerned, and myself and I am definitely learning as I go. 

I would really like to eventually have both dogs in with the herd and ALL the animals be safe. Is that to much to expect given the specific traits of the 2 breeds?

Thanks for all the sound, genuine advice. One thing I really like about this place is that questions can be asked and the OP not berated for what he/she should have/could have done differently. It makes for a really good learning environment.

Thanks

Ron


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

As long as the GP is exposed to sheep he can bond to them. Ask what the set up is at the breeder&#8217;s. If they have sheep it would be no problem to keep the puppy. The type of imprinting we are looking for happens up to 16 weeks old. So, if he can&#8217;t imprint on sheep at the breeder&#8217;s you need to bring him home prior to 16 weeks.

You can still take the puppy for a walk and training in the morning before you leave, and again when you get home, and again before bed. He will probably use the pen as his toilet; he should already be practically housebroken by the time you get him and won&#8217;t want to soil his bed. Don&#8217;t have sheep in the pen when you are not there to supervise.

Another alternative is to look for a dog that is ready to work on his own. Ask sheep shearers if they know anyone who might have a dog that will work for you. That puppy is not going to be a serious detriment for probably two years. If you had an old dog, maybe no longer suitable for a large herd, your puppy would be able to take over by the time the old fellow passes on. This would be a win/win.

As for the ASD, now that you know how he is with lambs, keep him separate from them next year. I don&#8217;t think you can train him out of nipping. I have a border collie and it&#8217;s the same thing. He also does it with small children.


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## 24to1 (Apr 2, 2014)

I just realized I may have misled people here as a result of my lack of acronym knowledge. I thought ASD was Anatolian Shepard, but by the responses I believe it genuinely stands for Australian Sheep Dog (or Shepard). Please forgive my ignorance....

What threw me was the "natural and hard wired for the ASD to nip" comment. Everything I read about them said they would bite ears and hocks as puppies when chasing or playing, but would grow out of or could be trained out of the behavior.

The older dog is an Anatolian Shepard mix.

Again, Sorry for the confusion.

My Bad 

Ron


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Well that ASD being anatolian is a bit concerning with its being a year of age. I've never owned an anatolian; however, I do know they are identified as livestock guardian dogs. So for it to be chasing/biting your sheep at that age tells me something is wrong. (Wondering what it is mixed with and thinking the instincts of the mix is promoting the problem. Poor dog may actually be confused.) 

Still if you get a firm handle on that ASD "before" your puppy arrives, you may wind up with a good working pair!


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

The Anatolian is an aggressive guardian. A Great Pyr guards mostly by barking. The two may be a good team


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