# Can bread be 'over-kneaded'?



## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

My bread didn't hardly rise at all yesterday. Maybe I kneaded it too much and stopped all the process. After 8 hours it was still a small lump. So I put the dough lump back into the sourdough starter, added some flour and more water and mixed all back together in to a batter. This morning, the starter had expanded to the size of a gallon size bowl !! Looked like a big sponge in a bowl full of holes.

Tonight, when I get home from work and going out to eat for new years, I'm going to make the dough again (adding just flour and maybe a little starter for liquid) Form it into loaves, put those loaves in the bread pans and let them set all night until tomorrow. No additional kneading, no punching down, nada ...nothing. I think if I just form it into loaves, leave it alone and quit messing with it, it may rise better and be ready to bake. This sourdough making/baking is alot different than just making regular bread. 
No matter what happens in the loaf pans overnight, what ever end up in there is going to get baked. I may end up with a dense loaf again with little rising like the last time.
Ohio Rusty ><>

Youth is wasted on the wrong people.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

OR, it's less likely that it was over-kneaded than that it hadn't been fed properly. You mentioned giving it more flour (food), and it expanded into a sponge. (What you made is referred to as a sponge, in fact!) 

Over-rising is much more of a concern than over-kneading. I wouldn't let it rise for more than 12 hours. 

There's a point at which the sourdough simply exhausts itself because it has no more "food" (simple carbohydrate such as flour or sugar) to consume, and then it fails to produce the gas which is what causes your bread to rise.

Hope this helps, and good luck with your rehabilitated dough!


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

Speaking of sourdough (yeah, OR it is a lot different). I've got 2 great starters going and have no problem getting them to double in size after feeding, but again, it's the rising that's the problem. I figured out that my last loaves dried out on top, constricting their rise. Like OR, after 12 plus hours they still hadn't risen. I'm having difficulty getting the process down for sourdough loaves and the rising seems to be the problem. How long does it generally take for your sourdough loaves to rise without the use of yeast?


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## woodsy (Oct 13, 2008)

bourbonred said:


> Speaking of sourdough (yeah, OR it is a lot different). I've got 2 great starters going and have no problem getting them to double in size after feeding, but again, it's the rising that's the problem. I figured out that my last loaves dried out on top, constricting their rise. Like OR, after 12 plus hours they still hadn't risen. I'm having difficulty getting the process down for sourdough loaves and the rising seems to be the problem. How long does it generally take for your sourdough loaves to rise without the use of yeast?


My first rise usually takes 5-6 hrs depending on inside temps.
2nd rise in the bread pans 1-2 hrs.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

bourbonred said:


> Speaking of sourdough (yeah, OR it is a lot different). I've got 2 great starters going and have no problem getting them to double in size after feeding, but again, it's the rising that's the problem. I figured out that my last loaves dried out on top, constricting their rise. Like OR, after 12 plus hours they still hadn't risen. I'm having difficulty getting the process down for sourdough loaves and the rising seems to be the problem. How long does it generally take for your sourdough loaves to rise without the use of yeast?


Here's what I do, and it works pretty well. Mine is an 8-cup flour recipe and I make 4 loaves. I use no yeast. You're right; protecting the loaves from the dried out top is critical!

I mix half the flour with my starter and warm water the night before, spray it lightly with oil, then gently lay a sheet of plastic wrap over the sponge. Cover all with a towel. I let it do its thing overnight, so generally between 7-9 hours. 

The next day, I mix 2 tsp of sugar in to feed the sponge, along with salt and the rest of the flour, knead till smooth and pliable (takes about 4 minutes in a stand mixer). Again, coat with oil, lay a sheet of plastic wrap over then cover with a towel and let it rise for a couple more hours.

I then divide the dough into baking-sized loaves, place them on the stones I use to bake them, again lightly spray with oil and cover with plastic wrap and a towel for a final rise. The final rise takes about an hour. After an hour, I remove the plastic wrap, slash loaves and give them roughly another 20 minutes covered with a towel before placing in the oven.

Hope this is of help!


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## woodsy (Oct 13, 2008)

We have good results just warming up the starter in the storage crock from the fridge couple- 3 hrs. before mixing all the ingredients . 
With 2 1/2 cups warm water, 1/2 cup starter, oil , Br. sugar, salt and flour we get a couple nice size loaves every time.
Agree there is a learning curve involved, after a couple years we have it down pretty good.


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

Four loaves just out of the oven and I was worried. They smelled so sour baking...I wondered if I had again wasted a lot of flour. But they were wonderful!!!!! Thanks, guys!


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